# Shop Re-Sharpened Chains vs. Factory



## John Lyngdal (Mar 11, 2017)

I took 7 chains into the old time local shop that I really like, but it took them over two weeks to get all the chains sharpened. The only charged me $44 for all of them, which is overall a pretty good price. Now the downside. I put on of one the freshly sharpened chains on the 038MagII that has a 25" bar and did some test cuts on some 16" oak. Really cut slow. Next I grabbed my 036 with a 20" bar with a brand new 3/8" 33 RS3 72 and cut the same log and it blazed through it. Both saws are well tuned, so it's got to be the chain. Going to hand file the shop sharpened chain and try it again, then put on a fresh Stihl chain and make another cut.
Is this experience an outlier, or do new factory sharpened chains generally out cut shop sharpened chains?
In any event it looks like I need to start shopping for a Grandberg 106B.


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## Mad Professor (Mar 11, 2017)

John Lyngdal said:


> I took 7 chains into the old time local shop that I really like, but it took them over two weeks to get all the chains sharpened. The only charged me $44 for all of them, which is overall a pretty good price. Now the downside. I put on of one the freshly sharpened chains on the 038MagII that has a 25" bar and did some test cuts on some 16" oak. Really cut slow. Next I grabbed my 036 with a 20" bar with a brand new 3/8" 33 RS3 72 and cut the same log and it blazed through it. Both saws are well tuned, so it's got to be the chain. Going to hand file the shop sharpened chain and try it again, then put on a fresh Stihl chain and make another cut.
> Is this experience an outlier, or do new factory sharpened chains generally out cut shop sharpened chains?
> In any event it looks like I need to start shopping for a Grandberg 106B.



What do the chips look like? 

Check to see if the rakers got set to 0.025".


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## HarleyT (Mar 11, 2017)

Put up some pics. 

A properly sharpened chain should cut as well as, if not better, than a new chain.


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## alderman (Mar 11, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Put up some pics.
> 
> A properly sharpened chain should cut as well as, if not better, than a new chain.



Which explains why mine hardly ever do. Sometimes I do get lucky though. 


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## SeMoTony (Mar 11, 2017)

John Lyngdal said:


> I took 7 chains into the old time local shop that I really like, but it took them over two weeks to get all the chains sharpened. The only charged me $44 for all of them, which is overall a pretty good price. Now the downside. I put on of one the freshly sharpened chains on the 038MagII that has a 25" bar and did some test cuts on some 16" oak. Really cut slow. Next I grabbed my 036 with a 20" bar with a brand new 3/8" 33 RS3 72 and cut the same log and it blazed through it. Both saws are well tuned, so it's got to be the chain. Going to hand file the shop sharpened chain and try it again, then put on a fresh Stihl chain and make another cut.
> Is this experience an outlier, or do new factory sharpened chains generally out cut shop sharpened chains?
> In any event it looks like I need to start shopping for a Grandberg 106B.


Local Family Center sharpens cutters w/grinder $3 off saw , all even. Attorneys tell them to leave rakers alone? Bobl and search sharping chain together will show anyone ( worked 4 me) good relationship of angles of file and raker height so as to make chips rather than dust. I check new chain to see if it needs touch up. If I can learn to sharp chain most anyone can ,even better than new.


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## Sepia (Mar 11, 2017)

Chain on backwards? (Don't laugh - it happens)


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 11, 2017)

Wonder why it took so long? If I happen to be in the shop I do it while they wait. We charge $10 a loop.
At worst it might take me till the next day if I'm not around.

I do the depth guages if needed. Not sure why that would be an issue, it's only doing half the job if not done.


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## Agr516 (Mar 11, 2017)

Id be willing to bet they didnt touch the rakers on your chains.


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## HarleyT (Mar 11, 2017)

I'd do it all day for 10 a loop!!!!


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## John Lyngdal (Mar 11, 2017)

It's a raker height issue. Not so much as a bright spot on any of them and it looks like I gave them a unmarked chain of dubious heritage. Put a new Stihl RS chain on the saw and breezed through the log. Put that Brand X chain aside for some dirty work to save the good chains from wear.


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## LowVolt (Mar 11, 2017)

Forget the grandberg. Get a stihl fg2.


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## HarleyT (Mar 11, 2017)

LowVolt said:


> Forget the grandberg. Get a stihl fg2.


pics!!!!


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## HarleyT (Mar 11, 2017)

John Lyngdal said:


> It's a raker height issue. Not so much as a bright spot on any of them and it looks like I gave them a unmarked chain of dubious heritage. Put a new Stihl RS chain on the saw and breezed through the log. Put that Brand X chain aside for some dirty work to save the good chains from wear.


Pics!!!!!


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## LowVolt (Mar 11, 2017)




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## HarleyT (Mar 11, 2017)

Is that set up to be clamped in a vice?


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 11, 2017)

Buy bench style grinder and sharpen them yourself . I buy new chain and sharpen them before I put them on saw . Bench sharpenings can be way better then factory. There always uneven. 
Woodblocker55

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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 11, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> I'd do it all day for 10 a loop!!!!



It's not anything crazy. Shop rate is $90/hr so that means ~6.5 mins a chain.


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## LowVolt (Mar 11, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Is that set up to be clamped in a vice?


Yup yup. Chain making one side, sharpening on the other.


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 11, 2017)

Bench chainsaw sharpers here are $80 timbertuff ones. That's all I use. Shop it. 
Woodblocker55

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## HarleyT (Mar 11, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> Bench chainsaw sharpers here are $80 timbertuff ones. That's all I use. Shop it.
> Woodblocker55
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk


Or get a good one!!!


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## MontanaResident (Mar 11, 2017)

I can sharpen a chain in 10 minutes or less. If it's really bunged up then multiples of that. Most of my time is in R&R the chain and cleaning it in a tub with some solvent.


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## MontanaResident (Mar 11, 2017)

An $80 to $100 bench sharpener is all any weekend warrior needs. I probably sharpen chains 10 times a year. A busy shop during spring/summer/fall maybe could benefit from a more expensive one, but I doubt it.



HarleyT said:


> Or get a good one!!!


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## bayard (Mar 11, 2017)

spend the 100$, you will get it worked out in 5 min.it takes 8 to 10 minutes per chain. light grinding.i do rakers by eye, with a angle grinder.


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## CoreyB (Mar 11, 2017)

A shop sharpened chain should cut just as good or better then new.
Lots of decent sharpeners for home use. Granberg jigs work very well and worth learning also the stihl/preferd all in one is a fast easy touch up. Husqvarna sells one as well and for 30 buck hard to beat. Sharpen with something like that for 4 or 5 times then take to a good shop to even them back out. At work we have Oregon 520 with Diamond wheels and that works very well. But is over $500 each one (with diamond wheel) we also do depth gauges if needed. It still takes me a good 10 minutes per chain.


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## BenK (Mar 11, 2017)

Not to muck up the thread but I recall a post recently (within the last 3 months perhaps) that tested all kinds of the same type of chain. NIB, hand hand filed, granberg something or another filed, etc and the winner across the board was the NIB chain. Maybe I have had a few too many white wine spritzers tonight but I recall the nib chain performing the best in that particular scenario???


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## heimannm (Mar 11, 2017)

At the WKY GTG a few years ago one of the events was a chain contest, those that wanted to brought their best efforts in sharpening a fast chain. All chains were run on the same saw by the same operator.

The winner was....new chain out of the box.

Mark


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 11, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Or get a good one!!!


You got deep pockets go for $500 Oregon one . [emoji106][emoji3]

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## aokpops (Mar 11, 2017)

Dremel


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## Mac&Homelite (Mar 11, 2017)

I will have to say 99% of the time factory sharpening's (especially with brand name chains) is way better than what most people can do. I've tried the dremel sharpening attachment, but I found it to be quite awkward to use and removes a lot of tooth fast. Never tried a bench mounted one, but had some chains sharpened on one (by a Stihl dealer lol) that came out duller than I brought it in. No joke, but I could tell the machine wasn't set up correctly and was operator error. I much rather prefer to hand file, and I believe that you get more life out of the chain, as well as the benefit of never being reliant on someone to sharpen it for you.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Mar 11, 2017)

It ain't apples to apples but there is a big difference with carbide drills. I was a machinist for 40 years and on multiple run jobs we would get 150 holes with a factory drill. We tried sharpening in house and averaged 30 holes before failure. We sent the dull drills out to a company that specialized in resharpening them and they averaged 50 holes before failure. Needless to say we always wanted new but you don't always get what you want.


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 11, 2017)

What I do is keep touching them up on bench grinder . Get about 15-20 sharpens per chain that's about 15 cord per chain . Had one last year I cut 20 cord . They start wearing back rivet of cutter tooth and start cracking then I stop using them . 
Woodblocker55

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 11, 2017)

Other thing to note if I have let's say 2-3 teeth in bad condition I just leave them and in 1-5 sharpenings they clean up again . 
No since getting wild grinding down 58 teeth to match 3 bad ones. I see local stores do this all the time ... But there selling chain I guess lol

Woodblocker55

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## Philbert (Mar 11, 2017)

Properly sharpened chains cut wood. Lots of ways to sharpen: but it is the operator that sharpens, not the tool.

1. Some guys (or shop employees) are good with a file; some with certain guides or jigs; some with a grinder. Other guys can ruin a new-out-of-the-box chain with the same tools.

2. 'Sharpen' is a relative term - beyond restoring the actual cutting edges, multiple angles on the cutter can be defined and optimized for different species of wood, for speed versus durability, etc. This could make performance 'better' than stock chain.

3. Depth gauges absolutely need to be maintained. It is in all of the manufacturers' instructions. Not maintaining them would be contrary to those instructions. 'Attorney' may be confusing low-kickback bumpers with depth gauges.

Philbert


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 11, 2017)

Yes it's a art form all in its own . And take while to get good at it. But grind to manufacturers angles and results can be amazing.
Makes saws run longer and makes more chips..[emoji106]

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

This all you need to make them better then factory . First timers takes about 5 sharpening to get the hang of it . And you'll be on your way .
key point is set vise to 10 degrees ( Oregon chains ) the right way and don't hit the chain links set the the stop down correct . you will say
wow I should of bought one along time ago ... ( that's what I said  and you need to get good at dressing grind wheel to right radius . Gauge and
instructions come with it . only thing was bad in the instructions was they didn't explain the 10 degree vise very well .. otherwise its priceless .
I have 2 one for sharpening and one to set rakers .. Had this style since 2011 ( 90 cord ago ) before that I had cheaper Oregon sharpener with 4 inch wheel .
These are my findings others may differ ..  

Woodblocker55


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

or this one  
Woodblocker55


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## Little Al (Mar 12, 2017)

John Lyngdal said:


> I took 7 chains into the old time local shop that I really like, but it took them over two weeks to get all the chains sharpened. The only charged me $44 for all of them, which is overall a pretty good price. Now the downside. I put on of one the freshly sharpened chains on the 038MagII that has a 25" bar and did some test cuts on some 16" oak. Really cut slow. Next I grabbed my 036 with a 20" bar with a brand new 3/8" 33 RS3 72 and cut the same log and it blazed through it. Both saws are well tuned, so it's got to be the chain. Going to hand file the shop sharpened chain and try it again, then put on a fresh Stihl chain and make another cut.
> Is this experience an outlier, or do new factory sharpened chains generally out cut shop sharpened chains?
> In any event it looks like I need to start shopping for a Grandberg 106B.


This question comes into " How long is a piece of string" factory new robot macine sharpened chain will usually be to an acceptable edge, but if you have someone that knows his stuff his hand sharpened chain will be better than new. So factory is usually to a certain standard; shop machine or hand is dependent on the skill of the person doing the job


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 12, 2017)

MontanaResident said:


> I can sharpen a chain in 10 minutes or less. If it's really bunged up then multiples of that. Most of my time is in R&R the chain and cleaning it in a tub with some solvent.



The worst one are hand "sharpened" with every angle WAY off and teeth all different lengths. 
Or a chain ran until it was pretty much just making smoke instead of cutting.

Some of those take 3 passes on the grinder, or a pass to the trash can.


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## Jet47 (Mar 12, 2017)

Little Al said:


> This question comes into " How long is a piece of string" factory new robot macine sharpened chain will usually be to an acceptable edge, but if you have someone that knows his stuff his hand sharpened chain will be better than new. So factory is usually to a certain standard; shop machine or hand is dependent on the skill of the person doing the job


Agreed.
The first thing I do with a new chain is hand file it. 
I have never seen a NIB chain be able to cut with a properly hand filed one.


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## mohick (Mar 12, 2017)

10$ per chain what a dam screw!!!! And I thought gas station owners were gougers, I would buy new chains and pitch the old ones before i would pay 10 bucks for ones that never cut worth spit again !!


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## mountainlake (Mar 12, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> Other thing to note if I have let's say 2-3 teeth in bad condition I just leave them and in 1-5 sharpenings they clean up again .
> No since getting wild grinding down 58 teeth to match 3 bad ones. I see local stores do this all the time ... But there selling chain I guess lol
> 
> Woodblocker55
> ...



It's about time someone said to leave the 2 or 3 bad teeth go and sharpen too the rest that are long rather than grinding them all to the shortest teeth. The biggest mistake made when grinding is not getting the wheel low enough resulting no or negative hook angle on the side plate, I've had plenty coming in here from saw shops like that and they don't cut . Grinder vs new vs hand sharpening is no night and day difference . I've seen a test where they did a test and good hand sharpening cut the fastest by less than 1/2 in a 15 second cut. I've timed my self running the grinder 4 minutes total off the saw sharpen and back on not doing the rakers on a 20" .325. Steve


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## Chris-PA (Mar 12, 2017)

A 3-pack of Stihl files is around $5 at the local ACE hardware here. 



mohick said:


> 10$ per chain what a dam screw!!!! And I thought gas station owners were gougers, I would buy new chains and pitch the old ones before i would pay 10 bucks for ones that never cut worth spit again !!


The cost of not being able to do something yourself is having to pay someone else to do it.


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## MontanaResident (Mar 12, 2017)

There are dozens of these of different colors and with different brand badges. Mine is black and has a Grizzly badge on it. They are all rather cheaply made, but get it done repeatedly. Once set up, for most people, a single adjustment for right vs. left cutters is all that ever needs changing. If 25degs is really 23 or 27, it doesn't matter after your first sharpening.

My machine sharpened chains cut as good as factory new. After the learning curve of using such a machine. 



Woodblocker55 said:


> or this one
> Woodblocker55


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## TonyM (Mar 12, 2017)

If you get a grinder do yourself a favor and buy one of these.
http://www.diamondwheelinc.com/chain-saw-wheels.html
4 times the price of a grinding wheel but no dressing, no burning, and last a long, long time. I've had mine for over 10 years and they still work good.


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## CoreyB (Mar 12, 2017)

mohick said:


> 10$ per chain what a dam screw!!!! And I thought gas station owners were gougers, I would buy new chains and pitch the old ones before i would pay 10 bucks for ones that never cut worth spit again !!


People like this really bothers me. You don't think my techs deserve a pay check or cover the expenses and upkeep of the shop and equipment? On a plus side most time I would rather sell you a new chain. No man hours or equipment involved so easier profit. So many people thinks every service should be free or at the expense of the shop. And people wonder why places can't stay in business.


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## MontanaResident (Mar 12, 2017)

Of course they do. But at $20 (Husky, 84L, full chisel, skip tooth at a local Ace Hardware store) a chain, $10 to get it sharpened is quite a bit. Especially when others charge $5, and in my case, I do my neighbors chains for free. Then there are stores with poorly (or not at all) trained employees that burn the cutters from negligence.



CoreyB said:


> People like this really bothers me. You don't think my techs deserve a pay check or cover the expenses and upkeep of the shop and equipment? On a plus side most time I would rather sell you a new chain. No man hours or equipment involved so easier profit. So many people thinks every service should be free or at the expense of the shop. And people wonder why places can't stay in business.


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## mountainlake (Mar 12, 2017)

TonyM said:


> If you get a grinder do yourself a favor and buy one of these.
> http://www.diamondwheelinc.com/chain-saw-wheels.html
> 4 times the price of a grinding wheel but no dressing, no burning, and last a long, long time. I've had mine for over 10 years and they still work good.




I might have to get one but with a diamond wheel being really hard why don't they burn the cutters. Steve


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## CoreyB (Mar 12, 2017)

mountainlake said:


> I might have to get one but with a diamond wheel being really hard why don't they burn the cutters. Steve


They are remove material faster and easier, meaning less time to build up heat. You can burn them but not as easy as a standard stone wheel. The big plus is never having to reshape the wheel and staying the same size.


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## TonyM (Mar 12, 2017)

Regular grinding wheels have a tendancy to load up, especially when trying to take light cuts. The pores fill with smeared metal. Then they will not cut freely and will create friction and heat. Coolant and frequent dressing of the wheel help keep the sharp edges of the abrasive exposed. Diamond wheels do not do this nearly as much.


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## cus_deluxe (Mar 12, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> A 3-pack of Stihl files is around $5 at the local ACE hardware here.
> 
> 
> The cost of not being able to do something yourself is having to pay someone else to do it.


Both of these! I only hand file, period. I dont cut enough to justify a grinder, and hand-filing for me is relaxing. I file chains more often than most im sure, goes quickly when each tooth onky needs a swipe or two to be back to "perfect"


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## cus_deluxe (Mar 12, 2017)

And as philbert i think said above, its the operator that sharpens, not the tool. We have a pretty darn good mechanic at work, but he knows 0 about grinding chains. He uses a 511a and consistenly grinds chains that are absolutely worthless.


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## cus_deluxe (Mar 12, 2017)

Once or twice a year ill get $10 loops of 72lgx from leftcoastsupplies, i cant fathom paying $10 to have one sharpened.


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

Just a heads up 15-20 cord per chain is my norm but I do get loads of oak with sand blasted in the wood to it's a Wisconsin oak issue in my location. You see sparks at times . So I'm not cutting in perfect wood either. 
The wheels that come with the . Green yellow black sharpeners work fine you just need to dress the wheel every chain . I have never wore out a grinding wheel yet. Since 2011 diamond wheel will be someday down the road. 
If you want total perfection when sharpening get a indicator 
Check chain location repeatable before clamping chain in vise location . I have done this I get it within .002 meaning if you measured between cutting edges all around chain it's within .002 
And I feel this increases as chain links get wore . There's some sharpening cad for the forum [emoji106]

Woodblocker55

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## HarleyT (Mar 12, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> I have never wore out a grinding wheel yet.



Then you do not sharpen very much....


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

No I'm only a happy home owner . 
Not a local chain sharpener. 15 cord a year. That's it . What do I know.. [emoji106]

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## HarleyT (Mar 12, 2017)

So you get 15-20 cord per chain? Do you run several chains at the same time?


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

One person one chain one saw . It's not that complicated. Gets dull you touch it up. [emoji106] Sure most chain sellers don't like to hear just how long a chain can really last. Only been doing it for 30 years . [emoji106] Wait longer then that dam I'm getting old lol

Woodblocker55

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## CoreyB (Mar 12, 2017)

Wow I usually have 3 chains per bar. At least 2 bars per saw and at least 2 Saws. Man I feel all ocd now. But I have yet to ever had to stop because of equipment related. Only fuel and oil a couple times.


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

I'm not running all over to get the wood have it hauled in mostly. So bench sharpeners always handy. When we use to run around and get wood always had back up chains. I think wood type and location. Have alot to do with chain wear I cut all oak . Maybe that's why. And I do hit barbwire and steel junk in logs but touch up fixes it. But ya local chain seller shakes his head when I show up only buy one chain every 1-2 years .He asks how much wood you cutting lol. I got crazy this year and went to .404 on big saw I got 2 chains full and full skip ! But most what I cut is under 16 inch that's all the same saw. 

Woodblocker55

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## Del_ (Mar 12, 2017)

The CBN wheels are worth their asking price. I have one round for 3/8 and one cut for square grinding which has two flat sides. 

I've also got a Stihl diamond wheel for doing carbide chains but don't use it on soft metal chains as it loads up more easily than the CBN wheels. I don't think I've ever had a CBN load up.

I'm not putting down the practice of cleaning up chains before sharpening but it is something I never do. I get a certain joy out of putting a freshly sharpened dirty chain in the wood and watching it clean itself up as it cuts. Wood chip blasting if you will.


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

That's a 20 cord chain from last year . I hit barbwire. [emoji106] Still can be sharpened. 
Woodblocker55

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## Franny K (Mar 12, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> The cost of not being able to do something yourself is having to pay someone else to do it.


Sometimes you are going to pay someone to do a certain amount of things just a matter of choosing which ones. At least if you sub the grinding out there will be no grinding debris in your shop. I know I erased the file part from the quote.

The title here is a choice shop re-sharpened or new factory loop. Make your own loop is another approach. Shop re-sharpened probably means take it back as far as the shortest tooth. Which sort of leaves one with a chain that seems worth half of a new one.


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## svk (Mar 12, 2017)

I've had chains out of the box that were great, some that were ok, and some that plain sucked. 

The shop near my cabin (where I do most of my cutting) charges 6-7 bucks to sharpen depending on length of chain. They do a good job. We've been using them since I was a kid and only had one chain ever come back from them they didn't cut well (chain was nice and sharp but rakers were too low so it was grabby) but the chain went in rocked so I'm assuming he just had an off day. He charges $3 to shorten a chain, again fair in my opinion. 

Now that I have the saw bug I really should just get a breaker/spinner and a grinder. I know I have over 50 chains on hand at any time and all but one saw run either 3/8 or 3/8 LP so I only need two wheels.


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## SeMoTony (Mar 12, 2017)

svk said:


> I've had chains out of the box that were great, some that were ok, and some that plain sucked.
> 
> The shop near my cabin (where I do most of my cutting) charges 6-7 bucks to sharpen depending on length of chain. They do a good job. We've been using them since I was a kid and only had one chain ever come back from them they didn't cut well (chain was nice and sharp but rakers were too low so it was grabby) but the chain went in rocked so I'm assuming he just had an off day. He charges $3 to shorten a chain, again fair in my opinion.
> 
> Now that I have the saw bug I really should just get a breaker/spinner and a grinder. I know I have over 50 chains on hand at any time and all but one saw run either 3/8 or 3/8 LP so I only need two wheels.


I got reel rip Chain thought I need breaker spinner. Turns out grind & punch, link & ball pein (8 - 12 oz.) works since it comes up 2ce a month @ most 4 me.


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## Philbert (Mar 12, 2017)

Del_ said:


> I'm not putting down the practice of cleaning up chains before sharpening but it is something I never do.



It's s preference. Even the definition of '_dirty_' varies. Solvent cleaning also gets out gunk between the plates, around the rivets, etc. Plus, they look so _p-r-e-t-t-y!_



Woodblocker55 said:


> That's a 20 cord chain from last year .


Just for clarity, are we discussing 'face cords', 'full cords', etc. ? Thanks.



Franny K said:


> The title here is a choice shop re-sharpened or new factory loop. . . . Shop re-sharpened probably means take it back as far as the shortest tooth.



Right. If you iu don't ask for anything different, they will use their 'default' (easiest) settings. If you want something special or specific, you might need to choose carefully or pay a bit more. Kind of like getting the cheapest haircut or looking good . . .



svk said:


> I've had chains out of the box that were great, some that were ok, and some that plain sucked.


Quality control issue. Applies to manufacturers and to guys that sharpen chains.



svk said:


> . . . all but one saw run either 3/8 or 3/8 LP so I only need two wheels.


Um, that's all you need anyway; 2 wheels cover most chains (1/4" to 3/8" pitch), plus one more for the depth gauges.

(We will work on this if you decide to buy one).

Philbert


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

Philbert said:


> It's s preference. Even the definition of '_dirty_' varies. Solvent cleaning also gets out gunk between the plates, around the rivets, etc. Plus, they look so _p-r-e-t-t-y!_
> 
> 
> Just for clarity, are we discussing 'face cords', 'full cords', etc. ? Thanks.
> ...


4x4x8 feet cord .. 

Woodblocker55

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## MontanaResident (Mar 12, 2017)

I soak my chains in a solvent (gas) before grinding them sharp. It goes a long ways in keeping your wheel clean. YMMV.



TonyM said:


> Regular grinding wheels have a tendancy to load up, especially when trying to take light cuts. The pores fill with smeared metal. Then they will not cut freely and will create friction and heat. Coolant and frequent dressing of the wheel help keep the sharp edges of the abrasive exposed. Diamond wheels do not do this nearly as much.


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## HarleyT (Mar 12, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> One person one chain one saw . It's not that complicated. Gets dull you touch it up. [emoji106] Sure most chain sellers don't like to hear just how long a chain can really last. Only been doing it for 30 years . [emoji106] Wait longer then that dam I'm getting old lol
> 
> Woodblocker55
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk


So how do you touch it up? Come out of the field and touch it up in the grinder?


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 12, 2017)

Woods in my yard. [emoji3][emoji106] You put in bench grinder and clean up any dull edges. [emoji106][emoji3] It's not rocket science.

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## Jet47 (Mar 12, 2017)

cus_deluxe said:


> Both of these! I only hand file, period. I dont cut enough to justify a grinder, and hand-filing for me is relaxing. I file chains more often than most im sure, goes quickly when each tooth onky needs a swipe or two to be back to "perfect"


if I hit something I stop and file. If I don't hit something I still take the time to file while I eat my lunch.
I should add, hand filing.


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## HarleyT (Mar 12, 2017)

How do you get the wood in your yard?


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## Chris-PA (Mar 12, 2017)

Franny K said:


> Sometimes you are going to pay someone to do a certain amount of things just a matter of choosing which ones.


Agreed - I've hired people to do jobs that require special skills or equipment when it's not something that I'm likely to do often. Like tiling a bathroom. Otherwise I'll buy the tools and learn to do the work instead of paying someone else. Sharpening just about anything is so far toward the do it myself side of the equation I cannot even imagine paying someone to sharpen a chain. 

Most of the factory grinds I've seen are at best indifferent, and I think if you cannot beat that you're not even trying. Some of the Oregon stuff lately is all over the place. 

The TriLink chains I've bought are usually pretty consistent in angles, lengths and depth gauges, but usually not very close to the recommended specs. Usually the gullets are bizarrely shaped.


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## Philbert (Mar 12, 2017)

Jet47 said:


> I still take the time to file while I eat my lunch.
> I should add, hand filing.



Manicure?

Philbert


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## Little Al (Mar 13, 2017)

svk said:


> I've had chains out of the box that were great, some that were ok, and some that plain sucked.
> 
> The shop near my cabin (where I do most of my cutting) charges 6-7 bucks to sharpen depending on length of chain. They do a good job. We've been using them since I was a kid and only had one chain ever come back from them they didn't cut well (chain was nice and sharp but rakers were too low so it was grabby) but the chain went in rocked so I'm assuming he just had an off day. He charges $3 to shorten a chain, again fair in my opinion.
> 
> Now that I have the saw bug I really should just get a breaker/spinner and a grinder. I know I have over 50 chains on hand at any time and all but one saw run either 3/8 or 3/8 LP so I only need two wheels.


I think you would find getting the sharpening, making/breaking, kit useful & a money saver I find sitting in the shop filing a few chains therapeutic with a bit of gentle music on the CD player, the Log burner going good, only problem the 2 Labrador dogs lie in front of the stove & the old dog, he's 12 this year, lays so long his fur starts to singe & the smell is awful have to poke him with the sweeping brush handle to get him to move the joys of rural country side living.


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## mohick (Mar 13, 2017)

Someone mentioned "asking for something special" . dam at 10 bucks for regular would hate to ask for anything special!!prob. charge more than a new saw!! for sharpening that usually ain't worth rat $hit


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## HarleyT (Mar 13, 2017)

In the biz it is called a "happy ending"!!!


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## opinion (Mar 13, 2017)

MontanaResident said:


> Of course they do. But at $20 (Husky, 84L, full chisel, skip tooth at a local Ace Hardware store) a chain, $10 to get it sharpened is quite a bit. Especially when others charge $5, and in my case, I do my neighbors chains for free. Then there are stores with poorly (or not at all) trained employees that burn the cutters from negligence.



The problem is calling it gouging when it's not. If you can buy a new saw MSRP of $599.95 but you can get it for $500, does it mean the dealer is gouging because you can find it cheaper? You have a choice. Don't be condescending.


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## svk (Mar 13, 2017)

I find most places charge $6 on the low end to $10 on the high end for sharpening. So $10 is high but if you needed it done it's not that bad in the big scheme of things.

I often find loops of full chisel chain for $12-15 delivered on internet sales. Those loops are $18-$25 in local stores. I wouldn't buy locally unless I needed to, but again in the big scheme of things that extra few dollars doesn't matter if you make smart purchases the rest of the time.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 13, 2017)

$10 for a chain sharpen is cheap here. There's only 1 other shop in town, (Stihl dealer) and it was $15 there last I checked.
If I spend 10 mins on a chain (it's quite possible if it's hammered), I should bill it at $15. Shop rate is $90/hr. And that doesn't figure grinder wheel wear or grinder.

A 20" loop of 3/8" is $34 at that dealer. Was at Ace in Anchorage yesterday, they are a Stihl "dealer". $38.95 for a $20" loop.


Prices will vary on area. Just like a 250k house here is an average cost for a 3bd, 2 bath house on an acre. 250k in northern Maine. Would buy double the house, nice shop, barn, shed and 300 acres.


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## anymanusa (Mar 13, 2017)

If you take your chains to a shop to be sharpened you'll likely get no more than 3 or 4 sharpenings from a chain before it's junk.


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## Philbert (Mar 13, 2017)

It's hard to compete financially with mass production; part of the reason we have become a 'throw-away society'. I know of some companies who simply replace chains, rather than sharpen them, after computing their labor rate, overhead, etc. Sometimes the used ones are offered on eBay, Craig'sList, etc. 

This almost a separate question from the one asked by the OP; _CAN_ re-sharpened chains cut as well as factory new chains, versus is it _COST EFFECTIVE_ to pay someone to do this.

Philbert


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 13, 2017)

It's easy 99 dollar bench sharpener and never pay anyone to sharpen your chains. Chains last longer saw lasts longer . And you'll cancel out a bunch of running around to get them sharpened . And you'll make more chips. Most important part is making more wood chips. [emoji106]

Woodblocker55

Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 13, 2017)

Once you figure it out everyone will want you to sharpen there chains . That's what happens. 
Woodblocker55


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 13, 2017)

anymanusa said:


> If you take your chains to a shop to be sharpened you'll likely get no more than 3 or 4 sharpenings from a chain before it's junk.



If you wait until the chain us flat out hammered, I agree. Otherwise no. I have loops I've sharpened easily a dozen times and are still good.


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## muddstopper (Mar 13, 2017)

My local saw shop has 3 or 4 grinders setup on their bench. They do everything from .325 to the big BC chains for harvesters. I wont let them touch one of my chains, even tho I do business with them all the time. I let them sharpen a chain once, it came back blue and ground to the limit. I bought one of those yellow grinders a few years back. I had to make a few bushings to tighten the machine up a little and I have pretty good results. Like others have said, If I have a tooth or two that is buggered bad, I dont try to take it all out, I just hit them the same as the other teeth and in one or two sharpening, I'll have the buggered tooth back to sharp. The one thing I noticed with a grinder is that it leaves burrs on one side of the chain. To solve this, I use my drill to start the grinding wheel in reverse before turning the grinder on. The grinder will run backwards just as well as it will forward if you start the wheel turning before turning on the power. Doing so means the grinding wheel is always pulling spent metal to the inside of the tooth instead of leaving a burr on the outside of the tooth. The grinder can also be setup to cut the rakers to the right height. Just set it to lower to the height you need and slide the rakers under the wheel. If you cut every tooth the same length and the rakers to the right height, and make sure the angles are right, it will cut good as new. When setting my grinder up, I found the degree markers where not accurate, about 5degrees off if I remember correctly. I used a new chain to get the angles right and marked the degree indicator so i could repeat the angle.


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## Philbert (Mar 13, 2017)

If you guys like the $99 grinders, you will probably really like the $300 grinders. At least upgrade to the better wheels - BIG difference (unless you file after you grind for a final edge).

Philbert


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## MontanaResident (Mar 13, 2017)

It depends on the shop and the sharpener. Also whether the user is constantly rocking the chain. I will wear out link pins on my chains before I run the cutters completely down.



ValleyFirewood said:


> If you wait until the chain us flat out hammered, I agree. Otherwise no. I have loops I've sharpened easily a dozen times and are still good.


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## JimMorrison (Mar 13, 2017)

I used to have a "pro" sharpen my chains until I realized how bad a job they were doing. I use a Timberline. Very easy, very good, within 99% of new. I would never toss a usable chain and buy new, for any reason.


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 13, 2017)

Week point after 20cord they crack there also. And chain gets alot of slop in the links.[emoji106]

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## Philbert (Mar 13, 2017)

Wear on the cutter heel may be related to chain tension. 

Philbert


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 13, 2017)

Band Blade sharpener and setter

Bar grinder, .325, depth guages, 3/8 and .404


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 13, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Wear on the cutter heel may be related to chain tension.
> 
> Philbert


I will let you know after I cut 20 cord with .404 [emoji106][emoji3] 

Woodblocker55

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 13, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Band Blade sharpener and setter
> 
> Bar grinder, .325, depth guages, 3/8 and .404
> View attachment 564658
> View attachment 564660


I have 2 like your green one.. Very nice setup. 

Woodblocker55

Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk


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## svk (Mar 13, 2017)

I've seen some hack job sharpenings.

My buddy who runs the children's camp where I do volunteer tree work brought a chain to the Stihl dealership near him. No lie, the first sharpening took over 60 percent of the cutter and there was tons of blue flash over the top of the cutter. From now on I take his chains home to sharpen and he has 5 chains in rotation so he always has a few even when I have the dull ones.


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## Scablands (Mar 13, 2017)

JimMorrison said:


> I used to have a "pro" sharpen my chains until I realized how bad a job they were doing. I use a Timberline. Very easy, very good, within 99% of new.


 This ^ right here. 

I let my Stihl dealer "sharpen" exactly ONE chain - "ruin" would be far more accurate. I discovered that they can charge only $7 to sharpen because they do *nothing* between the chain that's been sharpened five times and one that needs its first sharpening. My chain came back with blue teeth and unground rakers. Never again. 

Unless you really have found a good shop / old-school guy that sharpens your chain based on the condition of your chain, just do it yourself. Do it right. You'll love the results and will never go back.


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## JimMorrison (Mar 13, 2017)

I think you are right about the good shop thing. If there was one near me, I would probably use them. That is not the case, so ya just gotta do it yourself.


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## Scablands (Mar 14, 2017)

JimMorrison said:


> I think you are right about the good shop thing. If there was one near me, I would probably use them. That is not the case, so ya just gotta do it yourself.



I totally bought into: "I have a several chains, and my local saw shop expertly sharpens them for me." 

Reality was not as kind, however.


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## GypsyCliff (Mar 14, 2017)

Stump vise, sharp file, and hand sharpening guide. Ten minutes and it's throwing chips. When it's not throwing chips it's time for a break anyway, and a few strokes with the sharp file. Bought the files 5 at a time, the chains 2 at a time, and a bar and sprocket. Keeping them in rotation, and they should last a good, long time.

Cliff


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## Little Al (Mar 14, 2017)

It's one of those things if you are not able for whatever reason to do it yourself & want it done, you have to find someone that can do the job ( if the price is too high for you, & or the sharpening is not good or to your liking ) you do not use that outlet again. The thing to me is if the guy/gal does a good job then they deserve to be paid a saying the guy I served my apprenticeship under had wasif it costs $5 to do a job it's 10cents for hitting it & $4.90 for knowing where to hit it


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## HarleyT (Mar 14, 2017)

GypsyCliff said:


> Stump vise, sharp file, and hand sharpening guide. Ten minutes and it's throwing chips. When it's not throwing chips it's time for a break anyway, and a few strokes with the sharp file. Bought the files 5 at a time, the chains 2 at a time, and a bar and sprocket. Keeping them in rotation, and they should last a good, long time.
> 
> Cliff


What happens if you hit something metal, or a rock?


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Get a good grinder...

Take a chain like this....



Turn it into a chain that cuts better than new...like these....





These chain were sharpened with an Oregon 520 grinder....I use both stone wheels and CBN wheels....a great set-up!!!!!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

I should add, I still hand file too, I actually like to hand file...I have a full time job, woman, 18-month old girl, cut wood on the side, rebuild saws obsessively, etc....as you can see getting spare time was a problem for me.....I decided to try the grinder...now I can add that I sharpen chains on the side and have paid for 1 of my 2-CBN wheels with sharpening profits already....

I was the guy that said "grinders can't possibly do what files can"....well guys quite frankly I was wrong, if you have some motor skills, are not a ham fisted Neanderthal, and practice on the grinder, you can turn out great chains....


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## old guy (Mar 14, 2017)

I used to say the same thing but I'm coming around too


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## Philbert (Mar 14, 2017)

old guy said:


> I used to say the same thing but I'm coming around too


No, I still call him 'a Neanderthal'!

Philbert


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

old guy said:


> I used to say the same thing but I'm coming around too


what grinder do you have....so you are starting to like your grinder....


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## Ax-man (Mar 14, 2017)

Those pics are impressive. Looks as good as a good hand filing. I have a grinder,an old stand up Foley something and I never could get a decent grind with it which is why I have stuck to hand filing. I don't have anything against grinders per say but taking chains on and off saws was always a pain to me. I almost bought a grinder, but cold feet, but I am going to consider the Oregon grinder if I ever do sharpening for the public.

FYI Through the course of this thread it was mentioned numerous times of excessive grinding and burned cutters. A Stihl dealer we had would do that on purpose to sell more chain . He was kind of a crook but he didn't care . Your average person doesn't know a good job from a poor one. I am sure some shops don't do this on purpose but is just more lack of knowledge as to what and how to properly sharpen a chainsaw chain. To much attention is directed to the top plate angle verses the side plate which does the actual cutting in conjunction with the depth gauge.


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## HarleyT (Mar 14, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Get a good grinder...
> 
> Take a chain like this....
> View attachment 564837
> ...



You should have put up a pic of the same cutter!


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## HarleyT (Mar 14, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> Those pics are impressive. Looks as good as a good hand filing. I have a grinder,an old stand up Foley something and I never could get a decent grind with it which is why I have stuck to hand filing. I don't have anything against grinders per say but taking chains on and off saws was always a pain to me. I almost bought a grinder, but cold feet, but I am going to consider the Oregon grinder if I ever do sharpening for the public.
> 
> FYI Through the course of this thread it was mentioned numerous times of excessive grinding and burned cutters. A Stihl dealer we had would do that on purpose to sell more chain . He was kind of a crook but he didn't care . Your average person doesn't know a good job from a poor one. I am sure some shops don't do this on purpose but is just more lack of knowledge as to what and how to properly sharpen a chainsaw chain. To much attention is directed to the top plate angle verses the side plate which does the actual cutting in conjunction with the depth gauge.



Most dealers treat the guys that know how to sharpen and repair saws like dog poo, so you will rarely get someone that knows how to sharpen a chain properly..
But then, there is always the dealer that uses a robot type sharpener.....


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> You should have put up a pic of the same cutter!


Well those were my good customer "joes" chains....he will bring them back in the same horrific condition next time......I feel sorry for some of these guys saws! 

No matter what condition I get a chain, they all look like the finished ones I pictured....I only take pictures of the worst chains, no one cares about the "easy fixes" LOL.....


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## Rockjock (Mar 14, 2017)

15 off the bar 25 on. The tech starts every morning sharpening chains and we do a great many of them!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> Those pics are impressive. Looks as good as a good hand filing. I have a grinder,an old stand up Foley something and I never could get a decent grind with it which is why I have stuck to hand filing. I don't have anything against grinders per say but taking chains on and off saws was always a pain to me. I almost bought a grinder, but cold feet, but I am going to consider the Oregon grinder if I ever do sharpening for the public.
> 
> FYI Through the course of this thread it was mentioned numerous times of excessive grinding and burned cutters. A Stihl dealer we had would do that on purpose to sell more chain . He was kind of a crook but he didn't care . Your average person doesn't know a good job from a poor one. I am sure some shops don't do this on purpose but is just more lack of knowledge as to what and how to properly sharpen a chainsaw chain. To much attention is directed to the top plate angle verses the side plate which does the actual cutting in conjunction with the depth gauge.


Thanks......when I try something new, I always give it my best....change is hard, I keep an open mind....I have the problem of always trying to find a better way of doing things....sometimes I succeed sometimes I don't....a person will never get better saying "only this one, single way will work".....

I dont get into the "my way is best" type of thing....I just post actual results that I get, good or bad....

A lot of guys that have the have the answer yet never produce pics??????

That's messed up about that dealer, pretty pitiful....

Hell man give your old grinder another go...just take your time, get to know her LOL....you just may get to like her!!!!!!

Semi-chisel ground



Showing how if you grind correctly a file has the same profile, ( hard pic to take) never posted this pic before...



A vanguard chain I saved from the dead pile(almost took to much off the rakers!!!)



RS chisel




Just a touch up with CBN wheel


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## HarleyT (Mar 14, 2017)

Rockjock said:


> 15 off the bar 25 on. The tech starts every morning sharpening chains and we do a great many of them!


Hell, for $25 on the saw, I could afford to immigrate and sharpen chains for a living!!!!


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 14, 2017)

Wow chains all look like new I think I shoot for moon to much mine look seriously wore. lol I will send pics when I sharpen . Chains are just broke in when bottom of link start rolling a bur lol [emoji106]

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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> Wow chains all look like new I think I shoot for moon to much mine look seriously wore. lol I will send pics when I sharpen . Chains are just broke in when bottom of link start rolling a bur lol [emoji106]
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk


Yes most of the ones I happen to have pics of have a lot of life left.....however, when a customer brings them to me, they look rode hard and put away wet!!!!....

I also sharpen chains until the teeth break off....

I should add, I didnt mean to sound rude to anyone!!!!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Here is one that is starting to show her age....


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## Banguts (Mar 14, 2017)

Just got my hands on an old Silvey square grinder. Cuts like a hot chainsaw through butter

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## Jeff Lary (Mar 14, 2017)

Those are really nice clear pictures you have there good job .
I have an opinion on chain life myself. I cut my firewood in the winter on snow. my tree length never touches the bare ground,.. ever. That makes a world of difference in how long a chain lasts. I used to cut in the summer and pull to the yard with the old Allis Chalmers. When you went to saw the tree length into stove length the bottom of every cut was a hardened dirt slog fest. Might sharpen every 3 trees maybe every 2.
Now with the Kubota and Farmi Winch I cut in winter and how long a chain lasts me would get people really typing so I will leave that part out. I run my chains till the teeth break off when I am missing 4-5 teeth I give her up. But that takes a while. I have always hand sharpened I had no idea that you could have a machine do it for you at the dealer till maybe 1985? I never knew anyone and still don't that owns a sharpening machine although I must admit I love machines so maybe....
Now I have a Granberg File-N-Joint a friend gave it to me he had 2 and had no idea what they were, but I still hand file without that but I almost never have to sharpen in the woods. I take 2 saws one chain each about 10 cord per year. That's just me Your mileage may vary.


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## old guy (Mar 14, 2017)

Philbert[/QUOTE]


Philbert said:


> No, I still call him 'a Neanderthal'!
> 
> 
> Neanderthal rock Missing Link chain


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Jeff Lary said:


> Those are really nice clear pictures you have there good job .
> I have an opinion on chain life myself. I cut my firewood in the winter on snow. my tree length never touches the bare ground,.. ever. That makes a world of difference in how long a chain lasts. I used to cut in the summer and pull to the yard with the old Allis Chalmers. When you went to saw the tree length into stove length the bottom of every cut was a hardened dirt slog fest. Might sharpen every 3 trees maybe every 2.
> Now with the Kubota and Farmi Winch I cut in winter and how long a chain lasts me would get people really typing so I will leave that part out. I run my chains till the teeth break off when I am missing 4-5 teeth I give her up. But that takes a while. I have always hand sharpened I had no idea that you could have a machine do it for you at the dealer till maybe 1985? I never knew anyone and still don't that owns a sharpening machine although I must admit I love machines so maybe....
> Now I have a Granberg File-N-Joint a friend gave it to me he had 2 and had no idea what they were, but I still hand file without that but I almost never have to sharpen in the woods. I take 2 saws one chain each about 10 cord per year. That's just me Your mileage may vary.


Well said sir!!!!

I love to touch my chains up with a hand file from time to time....since I have gotten close to the grinder, I use it more than I ever thought I would....I bought it assuming I would only ever use it in rocked chains....well I like to really learn any kind of machine I am using, so when we got "acquainted", I was shocked at how well it worked....

I am just a chain "geek", I like hand filling and grinding LOL!!!!!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Banguts said:


> Just got my hands on an old Silvey square grinder. Cuts like a hot chainsaw through butter
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


Hey man looks very nice...:I must ask....did you ever use a grinder set prior to getting the silvey...

Do you cut hard or soft woods.....


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## old guy (Mar 14, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> what grinder do you have....so you are starting to like your grinder....


I have an Oregon 511 and I can get pretty good results with it, but I think I can still file better


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## Chris-PA (Mar 14, 2017)

Clearly you can do a very nice job with a decent grinder, but there's no arguing with the cost differential unless you are doing it for a business. For me maintaining chains for gathering my firewood a pack of files and a home made chain vice (and a beer) will get me very sharp chains - and it really does not take long (plus I enjoy it). Plus the file works in the woods too. I use the cheap Oregon stepped depth gauge tools which only cost a couple of $. I simply can't justify the price of a decent grinder as it won't add anything to my capability. I wreck a fair amount of chains, but not at the rate when a file is slowing me down. 

I'm sure I'm not the best filer there is, but then you need to learn how to use a grinder too to get results like are pictured.


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## svk (Mar 14, 2017)

Re hand filing versus machine ground:

Somewhere on here there's an old thread that showed several tests of hand filed versus machine ground. IIRC the best hand filed chain was milliseconds faster than the best machine ground chain. With that being said everyone has their own experiences and should stick with what works best.


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## svk (Mar 14, 2017)

Proper raker adjustment is just as important as the cutting edge. 

I won't name any names but there's a fellow who visits here every so often and is probably the world's biggest self proclaimed fan of the Granberg File N Joint. 

This fellow can file a lighting sharp cutter but doesn't measure/adjust his rakers because "they will wear down on their own". And he wonders why it's impossible to bog his 60 cc saw saw in hardwood.....


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## Chris-PA (Mar 14, 2017)

svk said:


> And he wonders why it's impossible to bog his 60 cc saw saw in hardwood.....


Probably has a lot of time for wondering about such things while he's cutting......


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 14, 2017)

Jeff Lary said:


> Those are really nice clear pictures you have there good job .
> I have an opinion on chain life myself. I cut my firewood in the winter on snow. my tree length never touches the bare ground,.. ever. That makes a world of difference in how long a chain lasts. I used to cut in the summer and pull to the yard with the old Allis Chalmers. When you went to saw the tree length into stove length the bottom of every cut was a hardened dirt slog fest. Might sharpen every 3 trees maybe every 2.
> Now with the Kubota and Farmi Winch I cut in winter and how long a chain lasts me would get people really typing so I will leave that part out. I run my chains till the teeth break off when I am missing 4-5 teeth I give her up. But that takes a while. I have always hand sharpened I had no idea that you could have a machine do it for you at the dealer till maybe 1985? I never knew anyone and still don't that owns a sharpening machine although I must admit I love machines so maybe....
> Now I have a Granberg File-N-Joint a friend gave it to me he had 2 and had no idea what they were, but I still hand file without that but I almost never have to sharpen in the woods. I take 2 saws one chain each about 10 cord per year. That's just me Your mileage may vary.



I get about 10 cords to a sharpen on my processor. We skid almost year round. Doesn't get much dirt, the branches do but they get delimb ed at the landing.


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## svk (Mar 14, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Probably has a lot of time for wondering about such things while he's cutting......


"Gul darnit! I just sharpened this thing and it could shave newspaper. Why the heck isn't it throwing chips?!"


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## Banguts (Mar 14, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hey man looks very nice...:I must ask....did you ever use a grinder set prior to getting the silvey...
> 
> Do you cut hard or soft woods.....


Nope, never had a chance to use one personally. It belonged to one of the brothers that owned the mill next to my dad's property. He died in a felling mishap, and the other brother gave the the square grinder and a raker grinder to my dad cause they were good friends. My pops never did anything with it so he gave it to me. Tracked down a printed instruction guide and got it fairly figured out. There's of course going to be tricks and stuff to it that I can only learn over time, but as of now my chains are coming out pretty killer. 

And as far as hard/soft wood.. some oak here and there, which are usually enormous, a lot of ponderosa pine, incense cedar, Doug for, some grey pine, and the occasional ant/hornet nest

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


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## Rockjock (Mar 14, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Hell, for $25 on the saw, I could afford to immigrate and sharpen chains for a living!!!!


Yup that is what we charge. The tech that does all the sharpening is very good at it and thus far no issues. Be it 5 chains or 25 the quality is always great and the arborists and tree companies we service are quite picky. We have several USG units on order but I can say keeping the wheel shaped correctly makes a huge difference in the end result.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 14, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Clearly you can do a very nice job with a decent grinder, but there's no arguing with the cost differential unless you are doing it for a business. For me maintaining chains for gathering my firewood a pack of files and a home made chain vice (and a beer) will get me very sharp chains - and it really does not take long (plus I enjoy it). Plus the file works in the woods too. I use the cheap Oregon stepped depth gauge tools which only cost a couple of $. I simply can't justify the price of a decent grinder as it won't add anything to my capability. I wreck a fair amount of chains, but not at the rate when a file is slowing me down.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the best filer there is, but then you need to learn how to use a grinder too to get results like are pictured.


I like those depth gauges too!!!!

Also a beer always is the key ingredient to getting in the "zone" LOL!!!!


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## HarleyT (Mar 14, 2017)

Rockjock said:


> Yup that is what we charge. The tech that does all the sharpening is very good at it and thus far no issues. Be it 5 chains or 25 the quality is always great and the arborists and tree companies we service are quite picky. We have several USG units on order but I can say keeping the wheel shaped correctly makes a huge difference in the end result.


Does he work hourly, or get a percentage?


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## Philbert (Mar 14, 2017)

Rockjock said:


> Yup that is what we charge. The tech that does all the sharpening is very good at it and thus far no issues.


For reference, what would a customer pay for a new chain, mounted on the saw?

Thanks. 

Philbert


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## CoreyB (Mar 14, 2017)

Depth gauges are overlooked so much. One shop in town refuses to touch the depth gauges. Needless to say we end up with a lot of their business. But I sharpen most of the chains and will sharpen to customers specs If they request.


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## HarleyT (Mar 14, 2017)

CoreyB said:


> Depth gauges are overlooked so much. One shop in town refuses to touch the depth gauges. Needless to say we end up with a lot of their business. But I sharpen most of the chains and will sharpen to customers specs If they request.





What if they request you totally removing the rakers? 


I have had that request before...


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## svk (Mar 14, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> What if they request you totally removing the rakers?
> 
> 
> I have had that request before...


Good for cutting ice. A few resorts up here in roadless areas still harvest ice every winter.


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## CoreyB (Mar 14, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> What if they request you totally removing the rakers?
> 
> 
> I have had that request before...


If do every winter for some duck hunters and ice fishermen. I don't use the chain sharpener for that though. Lol


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## svk (Mar 14, 2017)

CoreyB said:


> If do every winter for some duck hunters and ice fishermen. I don't use the chain sharpener for that though. Lol


I love duck hunting, but having to cut ice to shoot ducks is beyond my interest lol.


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## CoreyB (Mar 14, 2017)

svk said:


> I love duck hunting, but having to cut ice to shoot ducks is beyond my interest lol.


Mine as well.


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## Rockjock (Mar 14, 2017)

Philbert said:


> For reference, what would a customer pay for a new chain, mounted on the saw?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert



Philbert I do not charge to put the chain on for customers. They just pay for the chain and I put it on for them. They see me clean the bar groove and flip the bar so they get some education at the same time. Often they buy several chains as we have a buy 1 at full pop get the second 1/2 price. I get lots of used chains because if they come in and get the second chain for 1/2 price it is not uncommon for a new chain to cost what a sharpening will cost.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 14, 2017)

Rockjock said:


> Philbert I do not charge to put the chain on for customers. They just pay for the chain and I put it on for them. They see me clean the bar groove and flip the bar so they get some education at the same time. Often they buy several chains as we have a buy 1 at full pop get the second 1/2 price. I get lots of used chains because if they come in and get the second chain for 1/2 price it is not uncommon for a new chain to cost what a sharpening will cost.



We charge $10 off saw $14 on. On I clean the bar and blow out the saw too. Grind the bar rails if needed ($10)


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## Philbert (Mar 14, 2017)

I'm just trying to understand the 'sharpen-vs-replace' value at your shop.

For example, my local STIHL dealer charges about $23 for a 16" STIHL chain (.325/.063/67 DL) and about $7 to sharpen it.

But a home center across the street sells some 16" Oregon chains ('S56' - 3/8 low profile/.050/56 DL) for less than $9 on sale.

For a person who does not sharpen their own chain, it makes sense to sharpen the first one, but maybe to just replace the second one.

So I was curious how much a new chain sells for if people are willing to pay $25 for sharpening.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Mar 14, 2017)

Personally, I am fussy about sharpening, and could not compete against $7 per loop, even working out of my garage. And I hear people b*tching about $7 as 'gouging'! 

Or I could just 'sharpen' (and skip cleaning, inspecting, chasing gullets, adjusting depth gauges, rounding depth gauges, deburring drive links, and re-lubing).

It's something that I get satisfaction from, and do for myself, friends, and some volunteer groups I work with. 

Philbert


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 15, 2017)

Off topic but someone here will know. I just bought a pp225 top handle saw. The chain is " small" sorry for being so technical . I thought I would run a file over it the other day. The smallest file I have is 3/16. After some passes I noticed a rolled edge forming on each tooth on the "side" of the cutter. I am guessing that is because I am using the wrong size file I wonder is this a case for a 1/8 file? I think it is a low profile chain all my saws run either 3/8 or 325 so I use 7/32nds or 13/64ths on those.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 15, 2017)

Jeff Lary said:


> Off topic but someone here will know. I just bought a pp225 top handle saw. The chain is " small" sorry for being so technical . I thought I would run a file over it the other day. The smallest file I have is 3/16. After some passes I noticed a rolled edge forming on each tooth on the "side" of the cutter. I am guessing that is because I am using the wrong size file I wonder is this a case for a 1/8 file? I think it is a low profile chain all my saws run either 3/8 or 325 so I use 7/32nds or 13/64ths on those.


Use a 5/32 size file for the "picco/lo-pro" type chains....Oregon and Stihl both say to use these size files anyway....

These small chains don't take much pressure to file....on my personal saws with the lo-pro chain, I just about always hand file them....they are always a 16" chain or less, and they dont take anytime at all to file back into shape......

Once you get the smaller file, you will get a much better tooth profile...


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 15, 2017)

I knew it! 38.3 seconds later I have an answer ha ha love this site !! thanks.
The chain is low pro Picco I remember reading it on the chain box . It came with the chain in the original chain box. ok 5/32 it will be.


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## Philbert (Mar 15, 2017)

Oregon low profile _and_ narrow kerf (Type 90) chain actually calls for a 4.5mm ( 11/64") file. This is counter-intuitive, since this chain appears to be slightly 'smaller' than regular 3/8 low profile chain (Type 91), which takes a 5/32" diameter file.

But I tried it, and it really worked well. Oregon says the teeth have s different profile. You might have to order these files, unless a well stocked store carries them..

Philbert


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 15, 2017)

Philbert
You just have waaaaay to much information for a simpleton like myself. Leave it to you to stroll on over and up-set my apple cart. I was perfectly happy with the 5/32 file choice now I gotta go do some investigation . I will have to look and see if I still have the chain box to see what it says. If I cannot find the box maybe I can get you guys a photo of it. I have a awful time getting close ups of stuff I use the MARCO setting but still I shake some I guess. I don't get good pictures like the ones above.


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## Philbert (Mar 15, 2017)

If it is STIHL brand chain, it is probably their ' Picco' chain. If it is Oregon brand chain it will have a number like'9o' or '91' stamped on the drive links. If it is another brand - need to look it up!

Philbert


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 15, 2017)

ok I took a few photos all of which suck. The chain box was what the chain was in when I bought the saw from a member here. The box and the chain that was in it are most likely not the same the box has blue marker on the size as if to say " this is not the size chain in this box" sort of thing I think. Chain numbers are voodoo to me I have to ask every time I want to buy a chain other than for my partners. I have asked Chris in Pa many questions about this sort of thing ( not about this saw though). He has helped me with a PP 255 I wanted a new bar and chain for in the past so now it is you guys turn, never let it be said I play favorites ha ha. I have a red plastic chain size gauge I got from Oregon once and I don't think??? think the 1/4 size gauge size matches up with this chain but it is close. Without further adue here are my sucky pictures. jpeg 458 shows the rolled edge 459 shows the Oregon gauge 463 shows the gauge held up to a side plate 464 shows the saw itself. I did not look for a driver stamp if you don't know what it is by the photos I will go do that.


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## Franny K (Mar 15, 2017)

Jeff Lary said:


> ok I took a few photos all of which suck...... think the 1/4 size gauge size matches up with this chain but it is close..


Did not you see the picture of how to use that red plastic thing. It is in white. Chainsaw chains are rarely evenly spaced rivets so they are measured two increments then divided by two. The insignia kind of looks like a Carlton one in which case 5/32 would be correct. Is it a Carlton box?


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 15, 2017)

No the box was woodland pro but like I said I don't think the box and the chain go together. The cut outs on the gauge line up with the rivets on the chain I actually works very well. You can see the cuts out do not line up with the chain rivets they are close but not spot on by any means. The pasted portion of my message you quoted should have said "the 1/4 gauge does not line up with the rivets but it is close."


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 15, 2017)

The chain is Carleton also this is the box I mentioned . You can see what I mean now the chain is Carleton the box is woodland pro. So is 5/32nds the final answer?


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## MontanaResident (Mar 15, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> but then you need to learn how to use a grinder too to get results like are pictured.



I tried to learn the hand filing over a 2 year period, and never achieved competence. The grinder I mastered after the 4th or 5th grinding and my chains are factory sharp. Quicker to learn, better results, less metal removed, and pays for itself in a single season.


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## Little Al (Mar 15, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Oregon low profile _and_ narrow kerf (Type 90) chain actually calls for a 4.5mm ( 11/64") file. This is counter-intuitive, since this chain appears to be slightly 'smaller' than regular 3/8 low profile chain (Type 91), which takes a 5/32" diameter file.
> 
> But I tried it, and it really worked well. Oregon says the teeth have s different profile. You might have to order these files, unless a well stocked store carries them..
> 
> Philbert


Never used the NK chain but over here the Type 90 /91 & 1/4" pitch chain all seem to have a 4mm sharpening stick called for, but we don't rate this imperial sizing


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## Philbert (Mar 15, 2017)

_Most_ Woodland Pro (but not all) chain was made by Oregon. 

Here's how to use the gauge:


Philbert


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## Rockjock (Mar 15, 2017)

Philbert said:


> I'm just trying to understand the 'sharpen-vs-replace' value at your shop.
> 
> For example, my local STIHL dealer charges about $23 for a 16" STIHL chain (.325/.063/67 DL) and about $7 to sharpen it.
> 
> ...



Often we too are a little stumped but the customer is always right. A new chain for 30.00 and a second for 15 is a good deal, Stihl chains BTW. So Harry homeowner comes in and has a chain in his hand.. his bill is 15.00 plus tax OR he buys a new chain and gets a second 1/2 off and he is at 45 plus tax.. they often look at the price, and just get the sharpen. When it comes to chains for stihl we are about it. I think most of the homeowners when they come in have no idea that the chain can be sharpened so we educate them and once they understand they can get that chain sharpened quite a few times they are sold. While they are in they pick up bar and chain oil, motomix, look at lawnmowers, get a quote on a zero turn... The bigger outfits drop off a dozen or so chains at a time for sharpening because for them it is more cost effective. That and the constant quality of the sharpen.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 15, 2017)

Like the old saying says ,if want it done right need to learn and do it yourself .

Great thread guys .


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## Little Al (Mar 15, 2017)

Rockjock said:


> Often we too are a little stumped but the customer is always right. A new chain for 30.00 and a second for 15 is a good deal, Stihl chains BTW. So Harry homeowner comes in and has a chain in his hand.. his bill is 15.00 plus tax OR he buys a new chain and gets a second 1/2 off and he is at 45 plus tax.. they often look at the price, and just get the sharpen. When it comes to chains for stihl we are about it. I think most of the homeowners when they come in have no idea that the chain can be sharpened so we educate them and once they understand they can get that chain sharpened quite a few times they are sold. While they are in they pick up bar and chain oil, motomix, look at lawnmowers, get a quote on a zero turn... The bigger outfits drop off a dozen or so chains at a time for sharpening because for them it is more cost effective. That and the constant quality of the sharpen.


Would you sell a, in the US a "yellow" chain in the case of Lo Pro a Stihl PS, to some one who seemed to know what they were on about, or do you restrict to sales of "green" Lo kick back? I only ask as the last time I was in the area's main Stihl dealer he lost a sale as he tried to sell a LK chain & wouldn't sell the PS chain the guy had picked out & It was obvious the guy was clued up & he had brought in a pro chain as a pattern, Curious as to if it was Stiihl's or dealer policy altough over here the chains have no paint code


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## Rockjock (Mar 15, 2017)

Little Al said:


> Would you sell a, in the US a "yellow" chain in the case of Lo Pro a Stihl PS, to some one who seemed to know what they were on about, or do you restrict to sales of "green" Lo kick back? I only ask as the last time I was in the area's main Stihl dealer he lost a sale as he tried to sell a LK chain & wouldn't sell the PS chain the guy had picked out & It was obvious the guy was clued up & he had brought in a pro chain as a pattern, Curious as to if it was Stiihl's or dealer policy altough over here the chains have no paint code



I am not in the US but I highly doubt they would refuse someone for fear of repercussions ,Here in Canada I would sell the customer whatever chain they wanted. I can quiz them on it and inform them about its characteristics but in the end they can buy it if they like. I do wish at times a license, permit or training would be mandatory before a saw is sold. I get people that have no clue what they are doing buying a chainsaw. Oddly I have been selling more PPE int he last few months so I suppose people are getting smarter!


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 15, 2017)

This is not making so much sense to me. If you buy a saw with an extra chain and the chain cost you an extra $22. You use the saw and chain over a weekend so now you have two chains that need sharpening. You take the chains to a shop for sharpening you spend an hour driving to the shop and $14 and then another hour to pick them up. So you have invested at least $50 in your two chains to cut wood the next week end. Add this times four times for each pair of chains and what is the cost for your chains. If you spend $200 on a chain grinder and a reel of chain it still would be much cheaper then taking your chain off and on to your saw shop. Or spend $300 on a reel of chain and files that will last you a life time if you are a weekend cutter. Anybody can learn to file a chain, but if you really can not invest two hours in to learning how to file a chain then maybe a grinder is the way to go. Of course there is no grinder that will sharpen a chain as sharp or last as long or as fast as getting out a file and clamp. Now if you have more than one saw it gets even more complicated. For me having at least three reels of chain and a hundred files and a clamp then I am set up with a dozen spare chains for every saw will last at least a few years of cutting a hundred cords a year. Thanks


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 15, 2017)

This is not making so much sense to me. If you buy a saw with an extra chain and the chain cost you an extra $22. You use the saw and chain over a weekend so now you have two chains that need sharpening. You take the chains to a shop for sharpening you spend an hour driving to the shop and $14 and then another hour to pick them up. So you have invested at least $50 in your two chains to cut wood the next week end. Add this times four times for each pair of chains and what is the cost for your chains. If you spend $200 on a chain grinder and a reel of chain it still would be much cheaper then taking your chain off and on to your saw shop. Or spend $300 on a reel of chain and files that will last you a life time if you are a weekend cutter. Anybody can learn to file a chain, but if you really can not invest two hours in to learning how to file a chain then maybe a grinder is the way to go. Of course there is no grinder that will sharpen a chain as sharp or last as long or as fast as getting out a file and clamp. Now if you have more than one saw it gets even more complicated. For me having at least three reels of chain and a hundred files and a clamp then I am set up with a dozen spare chains for every saw will last at least a few years of cutting a hundred cords a year. Thanks


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## Philbert (Mar 15, 2017)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/powersharp.148391/

Philbert


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## Cycledude (Mar 15, 2017)

I used to file my chains freehand and yes they would cut pretty good but after a few sharpenings they would start to cut crooked so I would take them to the dealer and let them straighten them out, they charge $7 per chain which seems reasonable enough to me, but one day when I was picking up the sharpened chains I asked about the Husqvarna roller files they were selling, they took a few minutes to show me how they worked so I bought one for a little over $20 and haven't needed to take a chain back to get straightened out since, I haven't done any actual testing to see if they cut as good as a brandnew chain but it sure seems like it. Lots of guys claim to sharpen their chains in 10 minutes or less well it takes me quite a bit longer than that but as long as they cut good I'm very well satisfied, I suppose if I was sharpening chains almost every day I would get a little faster at it.


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## HarleyT (Mar 15, 2017)

Everyone should invest in a chain grinder! They could quit their day job, and retire early on all of the money they could make off of their sharpening for friends and neighbors!!


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## Philbert (Mar 15, 2017)

Still waiting for you to mail me all of your chains to sharpen!

Philbert


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## JimMorrison (Mar 15, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Everyone should invest in a chain grinder! They could quit their day job, and retire early on all of the money they could make off of their sharpening for friends and neighbors!!


You would make a fun neighbor. I would ignore you for weeks, but when I was ready to party, I'd throw rocks at your door til you came out. We could drink and grill, then go down to the corner and beat up some pedestrians.


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## MontanaResident (Mar 15, 2017)

He will try and shoot your cats tail off -- thought it was a raccoon going after the garbage. I'd tell the kids to be ready to run. Always.



JimMorrison said:


> You would make a fun neighbor. I would ignore you for weeks, but when I was ready to party, I'd throw rocks at your door til you came out. We could drink and grill, then go down to the corner and beat up some pedestrians.


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## JimMorrison (Mar 15, 2017)

Sounds about right, but that's what a fun neighbor does.


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## Little Al (Mar 16, 2017)

Talking to 2or 3 guys in the local dealers waiting to get their chains sharpened, I asked why they did not sharpen their chains, 2 said they hadn't a clue what or how to, but the third guys answer was a surprise He said he knows nothing about a saw other than how to start, use, & refuel/oil it His son changes his chains & he said he had no interest in as he put it, getting into "if's & but's" of its operation He said all I do with my car is put fuel in & drive it why should I be different with my garden tractor or chainsaw,at least it keeps other folk in work & making a living, although to me it's a strange attitude. Each to his own.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 16, 2017)

Little Al said:


> Talking to 2or 3 guys in the local dealers waiting to get their chains sharpened, I asked why they did not sharpen their chains, 2 said they hadn't a clue what or how to, but the third guys answer was a surprise He said he knows nothing about a saw other than how to start, use, & refuel/oil it His son changes his chains & he said he had no interest in as he put it, getting into "if's & but's" of its operation He said all I do with my car is put fuel in & drive it why should I be different with my garden tractor or chainsaw,at least it keeps other folk in work & making a living, although to me it's a strange attitude. Each to his own.


Yep, the average homeowner that uses a saw has no clue how to maintain a chain....their definition of sharp is a chain fresh out of the box!!!!

You would not believe the things I have heard buying/selling saws, and grinding people's chains....it's amazing!!!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 16, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> This is not making so much sense to me. If you buy a saw with an extra chain and the chain cost you an extra $22. You use the saw and chain over a weekend so now you have two chains that need sharpening. You take the chains to a shop for sharpening you spend an hour driving to the shop and $14 and then another hour to pick them up. So you have invested at least $50 in your two chains to cut wood the next week end. Add this times four times for each pair of chains and what is the cost for your chains. If you spend $200 on a chain grinder and a reel of chain it still would be much cheaper then taking your chain off and on to your saw shop. Or spend $300 on a reel of chain and files that will last you a life time if you are a weekend cutter. Anybody can learn to file a chain, but if you really can not invest two hours in to learning how to file a chain then maybe a grinder is the way to go. Of course there is no grinder that will sharpen a chain as sharp or last as long or as fast as getting out a file and clamp. Now if you have more than one saw it gets even more complicated. For me having at least three reels of chain and a hundred files and a clamp then I am set up with a dozen spare chains for every saw will last at least a few years of cutting a hundred cords a year. Thanks


You would be surprised how little the actual "homeowner" knows about chainsaws, quite frankly it's scary.....I sell saws to people sometimes that shouldn't be aloud to operate a hand saw!!!!!

And you can get a great edge with a grinder, just takes practice and a pinch of basic motor skills....I have learned that a lot of people down grinders because of chains they have seen their "local" shop grind....I once thought the excact same thing myself.....we have a local shop that straight butchers people's chains.....you would think Stevie wonder operates the grinder....well sure enough I wanted to find out for myself if grinders work or not, let's just say I am glad I did!!!!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 16, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Everyone should invest in a chain grinder! They could quit their day job, and retire early on all of the money they could make off of their sharpening for friends and neighbors!!


Lol!!!!

As hard as it may be to grasp, some people just don't have the skills to hand file....some just don't want to learn....some are happy paying someone else to sharpen their chains....

I like being able to grind when I don't have much time, and have a lot of chains to sharpen.....if I am not in a hurry, or I am out in the woods I will continue to hand file...I personally like both methods....i used to use a granberg, and you can turn out a great chain with it....all methods have plus and minuses, I won't "down" any of them!!!!!!


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## HarleyT (Mar 16, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Yep, the average homeowner that uses a saw has no clue how to maintain a chain....their definition of sharp is a chain fresh out of the box!!!!
> 
> You would not believe the things I have heard buying/selling saws, and grinding people's chains....it's amazing!!!


Most of the guys that are familiar with chainsaws, has no clue how to maintain a chain.....


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## Khntr85 (Mar 16, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Most of the guys that are familiar with chainsaws, has no clue how to maintain a chain.....


Yes sir, I agree 110%!!!!!

Its amazing to me that some of these peoples saws last as long as they do!!!!


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## Franny K (Mar 16, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Most of the guys that are familiar with chainsaws, has no clue how to maintain a chain.....


There are a good number of folks that join here and have lager saws than I do that choose to post questions instead of looking in the owners manual which would seem available on line. I do not know if they own a home or not. File sharpening, depth gauge adjusting, and file diameter are in the manuals for the stuff I have.


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## Banguts (Mar 16, 2017)

Honestly, I don't really know too much about engines, which, to me, is upsetting. I don't like the idea of owning something I can't fix or work on for the most part. That said, I'm not gonna walk to work with a bunch or hand tools in a wheelbarrow! The whole mechanical/metal industry is something I never got to learn as a kid, due in part to my dad not knowing it. He did however teach me many of the in's and out's of carpentry/masonry/tile/etc.. and instilled a pretty decent work ethic. Though it took a number of years for me to put those things to good use, my priority outta school was skating/partying/growing weed.. now, though, I'm trying to learn everything I can about whatever I can, which can be frustrating at times. Not enough hours in a day!! So I can kinda see the short term benefits of not knowing those things and having someone else keep up on the maintenance, but once I became open to learning... The information is never going to stop coming in, which the present day Me is more than happy about!

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


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## MontanaResident (Mar 16, 2017)

We can't all be experts on everything. My first was a Poulon, that I used once a year or less. I would mount the chains backwards as often as not. It's only when I had to cut multiple cords of wood as my primary source of heat did I get serious about my saws and chains. And it took help from a neighbor to get me headed in the right direction.

I've offered to help others, and sometimes they just don't have the patience to listen and think about it all. Their priorities are not on saws. When it works, great, and when it doesn't, let someone else "fix it".


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## Khntr85 (Mar 16, 2017)

Banguts said:


> Honestly, I don't really know too much about engines, which, to me, is upsetting. I don't like the idea of owning something I can't fix or work on for the most part. That said, I'm not gonna walk to work with a bunch or hand tools in a wheelbarrow! The whole mechanical/metal industry is something I never got to learn as a kid, due in part to my dad not knowing it. He did however teach me many of the in's and out's of carpentry/masonry/tile/etc.. and instilled a pretty decent work ethic. Though it took a number of years for me to put those things to good use, my priority outta school was skating/partying/growing weed.. now, though, I'm trying to learn everything I can about whatever I can, which can be frustrating at times. Not enough hours in a day!! So I can kinda see the short term benefits of not knowing those things and having someone else keep up on the maintenance, but once I became open to learning... The information is never going to stop coming in, which the present day Me is more than happy about!
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


Hey man you in cali, growin those flowers is legal!!!!


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## Banguts (Mar 16, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hey man you in cali, growin those flowers is legal!!!!


Rumor has it.. i dont think its enacted yet, though. Pretty sure they are still trying to figure out all the nooks and crannies, fine tuning the specifics of the taxation and regulations. I think my script is still posted that expired back in 2012, haha. Never worried too much about it and never really had any run in's with the authorities. I think because I was never one of those obnoxious neighbors, I never got greedy about it or tried "blowin it up," and I've always been a fairly private person (don't have a bunch of people over partying or leaving a bunch of beer cans all over the yard. That's what other people's houses are for, lol)

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


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## Banguts (Mar 16, 2017)

Oh, and, yeah.. Nevada City, which is in Nevada County.. which is in... you guessed it: California



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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 16, 2017)

From what I understand is if you grow those flowers and then smoke it you will not want to go out and cut any logs into firewood, but maybe that is just my problem.

I bought a brand new car a few years ago with a small 4 cylinder engine for economy travel. It started jerking at 20,000 miles. The dealer said it was probably just a spark plug so it would not be covered under warranty so changed the spark plugs and it still continued to jerk. The dealer said if the engine light was not on there was nothing they would to fix the problem unless I paid them to check it over. When I was out of town the engine light came on and I plugged my scanner into it and discovered one cylinder was misfiring so the closest dealer said they were busy and needed a few days to set an appointment. After some investigation decided to change the ignition coils and it ran smooth. From my point of view if you want something fixed then go ahead and fix it yourself. I spent more than 30 hours going to the dealer to get my car fixed and still they did not fix any of my problems. My car has more than 60,000 miles on it now and have done some maintenance that has cost me more than 6 hours labor, but has saved me at least 15 hours of driving to the dealer to get the run around.

As far as sharpening your chains anybody can learn to sharpen chains if they want to, but if some body wants to drive to a saw shop to get their saw sharp then that will keep saw shops in business. It would take me nearly the whole day to drive to a saw shop to tell me that I could pick up my chains in a few days. Not acceptable. Thanks


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## Rockjock (Mar 16, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> From what I understand is if you grow those flowers and then smoke it you will not want to go out and cut any logs into firewood, but maybe that is just my problem.
> 
> I bought a brand new car a few years ago with a small 4 cylinder engine for economy travel. It started jerking at 20,000 miles. The dealer said it was probably just a spark plug so it would not be covered under warranty so changed the spark plugs and it still continued to jerk. The dealer said if the engine light was not on there was nothing they would to fix the problem unless I paid them to check it over. When I was out of town the engine light came on and I plugged my scanner into it and discovered one cylinder was misfiring so the closest dealer said they were busy and needed a few days to set an appointment. After some investigation decided to change the ignition coils and it ran smooth. From my point of view if you want something fixed then go ahead and fix it yourself. I spent more than 30 hours going to the dealer to get my car fixed and still they did not fix any of my problems. My car has more than 60,000 miles on it now and have done some maintenance that has cost me more than 6 hours labor, but has saved me at least 15 hours of driving to the dealer to get the run around.
> 
> As far as sharpening your chains anybody can learn to sharpen chains if they want to, but if some body wants to drive to a saw shop to get their saw sharp then that will keep saw shops in business. It would take me nearly the whole day to drive to a saw shop to tell me that I could pick up my chains in a few days. Not acceptable. Thanks



I have said it a few times already. You need to find a new dealer. I only need to have bad service 1 time and I am gone. Also I look at it a little different. When I was a kid my dad would go to the local mechanic for a coffee and have him look over the car while he was there. He caught little problems well before they were big ones. Often my dad would say oh yes the car runs great but from time to time there is a little vibration... It works the same way at my dealership. The customer can come in and drop off a chain but then also ask questions. I can tell them about flipping the bars, show them how to clean out the bar grooves etc.. I am one of the few people I know who still does my own oil changes. I still smile when people walk around the sales floor like kids in a candy store, looking at the latest and greatest.... can't do that sitting in the garage.


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## BB Sig (Mar 16, 2017)

I bought an Echo CS-620P today and since my last saw used 5/32" files, I asked for some 7/32" files. The guy said "I'm out but I can sell you some 5/32" files." I said "you can't use these on this chain." He mumbled under his breath, "You can if you know what you're doing." I would have left the saw there if it weren't for the 20% off due to their "Open House".


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## MontanaResident (Mar 16, 2017)

Experts with opinions are all to common. Experts with knowledge are very rare. 

When I was first getting started and couldn't hand file worth a damn, my neighbor said I was using the wrong file. I was using a 5/32 on a .325 chain. He got out his 7/32 and got the chain razor sharp, but also filed deeply into the chain links. After a short time the chain broke. Duh! Later he also volunteered to tune my saw. It took me a year to finally get the knowledge to tune my saw the correct way, so it would run right again.  

Needless to say, I don't seek his help anymore.



BB Sig said:


> I bought an Echo CS-620P today and since my last saw used 5/32" files, I asked for some 7/32" files. The guy said "I'm out but I can sell you some 5/32" files." I said "you can't use these on this chain." He mumbled under his breath, "You can if you know what you're doing." I would have left the saw there if it weren't for the 20% off due to their "Open House".


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## Banguts (Mar 16, 2017)

My neighbor is pretty knowledgeable all things engine related. He's been showing me things here and there. We used to butt heads because he would want to just fix the problem, but I wanted to know what variables could lead to the problem in the first place. He's gotten better about trying to learn the dumb kid, and I've learned to not necessarily ask so many questions. Plus as I've learned more I can begin piecing parts of the puzzle together so that I don't need to ask so many questions. It's hard though, helps to learn certain things in order, even though I want to know now!! Been learning to tune my saws, I get lucky sometimes, it's some high science. To me, anyways.

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## Philbert (Mar 16, 2017)

Banguts said:


> My neighbor is pretty knowledgeable . . . We used to butt heads because he would want to just fix the problem . .


Some people are good at what they do, but not necessarily good teachers. I've also met some guys who are very protective of their 'secrets'.

Philbert


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## HarleyT (Mar 16, 2017)

Rockjock said:


> I have said it a few times already. You need to find a new dealer. I only need to have bad service 1 time and I am gone. Also I look at it a little different. When I was a kid my dad would go to the local mechanic for a coffee and have him look over the car while he was there. He caught little problems well before they were big ones. Often my dad would say oh yes the car runs great but from time to time there is a little vibration... It works the same way at my dealership. The customer can come in and drop off a chain but then also ask questions. I can tell them about flipping the bars, show them how to clean out the bar grooves etc.. I am one of the few people I know who still does my own oil changes. I still smile when people walk around the sales floor like kids in a candy store, looking at the latest and greatest.... can't do that sitting in the garage.


Just curious, what is your job/title there?
1 complaint and you are gone?


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## Jeff Lary (Mar 16, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Oregon low profile _and_ narrow kerf (Type 90) chain actually calls for a 4.5mm ( 11/64") file. This is counter-intuitive, since this chain appears to be slightly 'smaller' than regular 3/8 low profile chain (Type 91), which takes a 5/32" diameter file.
> 
> But I tried it, and it really worked well. Oregon says the teeth have s different profile. You might have to order these files, unless a well stocked store carries them..
> 
> Philbert


I stopped by my old Partner dealer today now Stihl, asked if he had a 5/32nds file,... he said how many ? I said 2 he said $4.00 I said thanks and was gone with the 2 new files.


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## Rockjock (Mar 16, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Just curious, what is your job/title there?
> 1 complaint and you are gone?



HarleyT I did not mean I would be dismissed. I mean if I was given bad service then I would not come back. I have read people talking about getting bad service but still going back to the same place for more. My title is " The stihl guy " so my boss says. he loves to tell customers how I was at Stihl in Germany and now here in Canada. That and I worked in the Forstverwaltung ( basically the forestry service ) in Germany so the tree guys feel comfortable taking advice from me on saws and equipment. 
I had an old boss in Germany that would say" Er muss den Scheißkuchen geliebt haben, den ich ihm letztes Mal gedient habe, denn er ist jetzt wieder für ein anderes Stück " Customer service is key. I have had disagreements with customers but we soon get things worked out quickly when they ask for a 16 " chain for their saw. They do not remember the model of the saw nor the pitch. I usually blame Stihl for making so many 16" chains!


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## MontanaResident (Mar 16, 2017)

I agree 100%. I sound negative on my "neighbor", but in totality he has taught me far more then I criticize. It is all part of the grand total that I continue to tally.



Philbert said:


> Some people are good at what they do, but not necessarily good teachers. I've also met some guys who are very protective of their 'secrets'.
> 
> Philbert


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 18, 2017)

It's all about having the patience. And willing to want to learn . And find that guy that Carry's on about the subject your interested in . That's were forums come in there awesome . Because we can't find something that someone hasn't dealt with but you need to find him lol. Back to patience. lol

Woodblocker55

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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

I have one thing to add for CBN folks........dress the wheel. 
The wheels come with a dressing stick for a reason. 
Will a CBN wheel cut when loaded? Yup
Will it heat a cutter when loaded? A lot better than a standard wheel!!!
If it isn't a flat non reflective surface......it's got steel in the surface 
And it is not cutting as well ........

This isn't theory .......it's physics. Plain and simple. 
I'm an Ol Phart......but in right. 
If you need help finding a dressing wheel......PM me.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 19, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> I have one thing to add for CBN folks........dress the wheel.
> The wheels come with a dressing stick for a reason.
> Will a CBN wheel cut when loaded? Yup
> Will it heat a cutter when loaded? A lot better than a standard wheel!!!
> ...


I am a CBN user, thank you for bringing that up....I kept the cleaning sticks they sent me....I haven't done but 15-30 chains with them yet.....how many chains on average would you say it takes to clog them up....I understand there are a lot of variables, just wonder how long it takes to clog one???


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

For cleaning CBN wheels a sonic cleaner works very good 
Better than the stick
When using the white stick the wheel should be spinning or coasting to a stop 


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> For cleaning CBN wheels a sonic cleaner works very good
> Better than the stick
> When using the white stick the wheel should be spinning or coasting to a stop
> 
> ...


 Never used an ultrasonic cleaner.....seems a pain to die mount and remount it. But hey.....if you like it ...great. 
I dress them at speed. Have for 40 years. 
So sayeth the Gods Of Norton. They are pretty good at that stuff. 
Now 40 years doesn't make it right. In the last CBN wheel I got it said to wet the dressing stick. New to me. But makes sense.


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> I am a CBN user, thank you for bringing that up....I kept the cleaning sticks they sent me....I haven't done but 15-30 chains with them yet.....how many chains on average would you say it takes to clog them up....I understand there are a lot of variables, just wonder how long it takes to clog one???


Lol....I never keep track. 
Each chain is different as to length and amount taken off and size. 

You can feel it.......and see the color of the tooth. 

And look at the wheel......anything but dust brown is steel building heat and loading the wheel. 

You can load a wheel to the point dressing sticks wont work. 
That would get you moved out of the grinding department. 
If too loaded they can be redressed on a surface grinder. 
But you lose your profile.....the wheel is actually made smaller. 

In real world grinding you make the wheel round and concentric to the taper of the mandrel.......another world. 

Anyway........I just go by looks mainly. 

But a CBN wheel can build heat better than s cheap wheel. 

On my Silvey 600 with 8" wheel I have a brush with a drip to keep it wet. VERY little water or you get a shower. 
I don't reverse wheel either. Hate me if you will. Lol


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## Khntr85 (Mar 19, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> Lol....I never keep track.
> Each chain is different as to length and amount taken off and size.
> 
> You can feel it.......and see the color of the tooth.
> ...


LOL, that's why I said "there are many variables".....I can't imagine there is anyone that keeps track of the excact number of chains they do, I know I don't have time for it.......the way you talked i figured you had a tip or trick regarding the CBN wheels.....if someone has to actually burn a tooth to be able to tell something is wrong, they haven't ground that many chains!!!


Now it would be helpful to people if you would share "how" you actually dress the CBN wheel....I know some guys say they let it slow down and just barely hit the stone to the wheel....


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

I


Khntr85 said:


> LOL, that's why I said "there are many variables".....I can't imagine there is anyone that keeps track of the excact number of chains they do, I know I don't have time for it.......the way you talked i figured you had a tip or trick regarding the CBN wheels.....if someone has to actually burn a tooth to be able to tell something is wrong, they haven't ground that many chains!!!
> 
> 
> Now it would be helpful to people if you would share "how" you actually dress the CBN wheel....I know some guys say they let it slow down and just barely hit the stone to the wheel....


To be honest it is by tone more than anything. 
You can tell when it is loaded. 
A drone more than a crisp clean sound. 

And for dressing.......you just let the wheel "eat" the dressing stick till the wheel is non reflective....rub it across the wheel.


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## CoreyB (Mar 19, 2017)

I sharpened this at work probably been sharpened 6 times or so. This video was taken after running a tank of fuel and even stumping this tree. So they seem hold an edge ok and cut pretty good.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 19, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> I
> 
> To be honest it is by tone more than anything.
> You can tell when it is loaded.
> ...


Hey thanks a lot!!!!

Do you let the wheel spin at full speed when you "dress it"....

Also just out of curiosity, what all grinders donyou have/use.....


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hey thanks a lot!!!!
> 
> Do you let the wheel spin at full speed when you "dress it"....
> 
> Also just out of curiosity, what all grinders donyou have/use.....


Yup. Flank Speed. As per Norton.
I have a Silvey 600 ......8" CBN wheels
Efco CBN
511 Oregon soon to have CBN......more of an extra, take along for relief work. That work is tough on chains.
Silvey Razor sharp II

Just a thought. To check the profile when you are dressing a wheel.....a single edge razor blade will show shape when cut ....just was it toward the center. I guess folks still do that. This Ol Phart does.


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

This what come with a diamond wheel but found it doesn't work as good as a sonic cleaner 
And flip mine every 5-10 chains 
And for having to pull them off to do it I sharpen chains from 1/4" to .404 so no biggie 


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> This what come with a diamond wheel but found it doesn't work as good as a sonic cleaner
> And flip mine every 5-10 chains
> And for having to pull them off to do it I sharpen chains from 1/4" to .404 so no biggie
> 
> ...



I'm saving that for folks. It's pretty good.
Not CBN but diamond wheels I've had for 20+ years that I shape carbide on are still good.

Doing it like they say doesn't get the side of the wheel well.
And if you don't think it gets loaded......make a cut and back off just a bit.....still hear it. That's on the side.
Just rub it across the side. Let it wear the stick away.
It will look like NEW.
And their way wouldn't work on a cup wheel. Lots of wheels only cut on the side.
As to flipping the wheel......check the profile. THE most important variable. 
All other variables affect that one. 
Length of chain
Amount taken off
Size of chain
How clean it is
All are about one thing......wheel profile. 
Single edged razor blade and a lope..........
One bad chain with a loaded wheel is worse than 30 chains that has the wheel clean. 
I used to do a lot of grinding and cutting with diamond wheels and diamonds. Very fussy stuff. 
Same rules apply. 
Listen to the tone and learn what a clean wheel feels like.


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

Cbn wheel don't cut as fast as the black wheels that come with a USG grinder and take a little while to get use too but even longer to wear out !


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Cbn wheel don't cut as fast as the black wheels that come with a USG grinder and take a little while to get use too but even longer to wear out !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What is the medium?


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> What is the medium?



I guess CBN would be
Pink burns 
Black is fast but coarser 
CBN is in the middle but last a long time


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> I guess CBN would be
> Pink burns
> Black is fast but coarser
> CBN is in the middle but last a long time
> ...


Sorry. GrinderSpeak. 
The medium is what cuts. 
CBN is the medium in a CBN wheel no matter how coarse it is. 

What does the cutting in the stihl wheel?

Or is it just a coarser CBN wheel in a black substrate??

CBN can be any size. I have sticks of it(Norbide sticks) to dress and shape wheels. I have seen them used daily to dress wheels and not. E worn down 1/2" in 20 years.


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

Stihl wheel is even coarser than CBN 
I like to use them on rocked out chains that need two or 3 passes and set the angle at 20 degrees and cut the bad off the nose of the cutter then switch to the CBN at 30 degrees for final dressing 


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

I think diamond wheel has a few different grits for there wheels if you contact them 




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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> I think diamond wheel has a few different grits for there wheels if you contact them
> You can prolly get 12-2000 grit in diamond.
> They finish lenses with diamond that on a sandpaper scale would be 144,000 grit, I kid you not
> 
> ...


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Stihl wheel is even coarser than CBN
> I like to use them on rocked out chains that need two or 3 passes and set the angle at 20 degrees and cut the bad off the nose of the cutter then switch to the CBN at 30 degrees for final dressing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The CBN is what's cutting. The coarseness is the size of the CBN chunks. Come in all size of chunks. 
What are the chunks made of in the stihl wheels you speak of.


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## hedge hog (Mar 19, 2017)

Diamond wheel inc. 
is what I use 
For CBN wheels
Stihl doesn't make a CBN
But makes a diamond wheel for there carbide chains


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 19, 2017)

What kind of wheel is the black stihl wheel you were talking about?


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## Philbert (Mar 19, 2017)

As I understand it, most of the _vitrified_ wheels for chain grinders use aluminum oxide abrasive, and are dyed to distinguish between different grit sizes. A few use ceramic abrasive. The black _resinoid_ wheels use a different way of bonding the abrasive. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/resinoid-grinder-wheels.256733/

The CBN wheels use Cubic Boron Nitride as the abrasive. Some descriptions that I have read also mentioned ABN wheels (Amber Boron Nitride), or a mix of ABN and CBN.

I still use the basic 'pink' wheels from Oregon, Total, or Molemab, as these are what are commonly available for the 5-3/4 inch grinders, although Tecomec shows more options:
http://www.tecomec.com/subcategory/chain_saw_accessories_accessories_for_chain_grinders/index.htm

I guess that at some point you need to go by the reputation of the manufacturer and product and get back to grinding.

Philbert


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 20, 2017)

Aluminum oxide wheels are white
Usually the finer ones.
Red is synthetic Ruby

In the real world everything is on the label.
Grit and medium(media)
OD
Width
Thickness
Bond


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 20, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> This what come with a diamond wheel but found it doesn't work as good as a sonic cleaner
> And flip mine every 5-10 chains
> And for having to pull them off to do it I sharpen chains from 1/4" to .404 so no biggie
> 
> ...



I've not yet flipped mine, probably have 200 loops on it. Whoops.


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## hedge hog (Mar 20, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> What kind of wheel is the black stihl wheel you were talking about?



I think Phil nailed it and that is more info on the black wheels that Stihl sells 
I didn't find much technical info on them
I did figure out what you are talking about this morning [emoji4]
Too much fishing yesterday and a little drinking 



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## Khntr85 (Mar 20, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> Yup. Flank Speed. As per Norton.
> I have a Silvey 600 ......8" CBN wheels
> Efco CBN
> 511 Oregon soon to have CBN......more of an extra, take along for relief work. That work is tough on chains.
> ...


Now you keep saying dressing the CBN wheels, and profiling them.....I don't know what kind of CBN wheel you have, but the kind I have don't ever get "profiled"....now yes, they eventually get clogged and have to be lightly "dressed" to clean out the surface....however, this shouldn't take a lot of material off to where I would call it "profiling"....I am right or wrong here?!?!

Are you saying that the white "dressing stick" that they sent me with my CBN wheel(I bought it from diamond wheel co.), will change the profile of the when I use it to clean/dress my wheel when it gets clogged?????

I am just trying to make since of what you are saying, thanks a lot Kyle!!!!!


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 20, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Now you keep saying dressing the CBN wheels, and profiling them.....I don't know what kind of CBN wheel you have, but the kind I have don't ever get "profiled"....now yes, they eventually get clogged and have to be lightly "dressed" to clean out the surface....however, this shouldn't take a lot of material off to where I would call it "profiling"....I am right or wrong here?!?!
> 
> Are you saying that the white "dressing stick" that they sent me with my CBN wheel(I bought it from diamond wheel co.), will change the profile of the when I use it to clean/dress my wheel when it gets clogged?????
> 
> I am just trying to make since of what you are saying, thanks a lot Kyle!!!!!


I am only CHECKING the profile. I dress it more than most. But the profile doesn't change much.

My point was......why flip it all the time if the profile has t changed.

I'm agreeing with you. You are very right. Wear is when the profile has changed. Take care of your wheel and it doesn't change much. Well taken care of and you would need a loop to see a change after 100 chains....and I doubt it even then.

Used wrong and I bet I could ruin a CBN wheel in a single loop.

And no....dressing white stick won't change profile. It keeps the profile from changing from misuse.......


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## Khntr85 (Mar 20, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> This what come with a diamond wheel but found it doesn't work as good as a sonic cleaner
> And flip mine every 5-10 chains
> And for having to pull them off to do it I sharpen chains from 1/4" to .404 so no biggie
> 
> ...


Hey when you used that white stick, did the CBN wheel eat into it really fast..... did it remove the material good....

Now this is just a thought, but would it help to hit the wheel with the stick, them flip it and do it agian?????


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 20, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hey when you used that white stick, did the CBN wheel eat into it really fast..... did it remove the material good....
> 
> Now this is just a thought, but would it help to hit the wheel with the stick, them flip it and do it agian?????


Yup....eats it really fast.
I wouldn't flip it. The other side isn't being used. No need to dress it


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 20, 2017)

No posting tonight. 

Clapton and Jimmy Vaughn going to take the stage....


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> Yup. Flank Speed. As per Norton.
> I have a Silvey 600 ......8" CBN wheels
> Efco CBN
> 511 Oregon soon to have CBN......more of an extra, take along for relief work. That work is tough on chains.
> ...


Hey how do you like that silvey 600, I would love to get one of those!!!

Do you like the edge you get with the deco and Oregon grinder.....

Also do use/like that RSll....I have never even ran a square chain...I cut hardwood here in Indiana, but I have heard people like square for hardwood....


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## mountainlake (Mar 21, 2017)

I just put on a new chain that cuts like crap compared to my sharpener ones, I have some dirty wood to cut, will use it for that so I can sharpen it properly. Rakers are too high for sure. Steve


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

mountainlake said:


> I just put on a new chain that cuts like crap compared to my sharpener ones, I have some dirty wood to cut, will use it for that so I can sharpen it properly. Rakers are too high for sure. Steve


Yes sir I have ran into that before....do you grind or hand sharpen your chains....


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## mountainlake (Mar 21, 2017)

I grind mine. Steve


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

mountainlake said:


> I grind mine. Steve


Good deal....what kind of grinder are you using....


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## mountainlake (Mar 21, 2017)

A Oregon 511 about 30 years od, still works good. Steve


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## BB Sig (Mar 21, 2017)

Is a grinder (in the right hands) that much better than a file? I've only ever used a file as I don't have a lot of saws. I get everything sharper than factory with my simple file and cheap Oregon file guide. I'd imagine that it's all about technique and the patience to learn what you are doing.


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## HarleyT (Mar 21, 2017)

BB Sig said:


> Is a grinder (in the right hands) that much better than a file? I've only ever used a file as I don't have a lot of saws. I get everything sharper than factory with my simple file and cheap Oregon file guide. I'd imagine that it's all about technique and the patience to learn what you are doing.


Put up some pics of your handiwork!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Put up some pics of your handiwork!


Do you have any pics of your chains yet Harley????
Its easy to get a good pic with any cell phone these days!!!!


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## HarleyT (Mar 21, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Do you have any pics of your chains yet Harley????
> Its easy to get a good pic with any cell phone these days!!!!


Yet???

Nah, I don't know anything....... I am just here to piss folks off.......


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Yet???
> 
> Nah, I don't know anything....... I am just here to piss folks off.......


LMAO.....you seem very angry.....I have seen MANY informative post from you...you post a lot of very good post...but no need to snap at me my friend!!!!

Just curious what your chains look like..... I post pics, to learn...you can never "know it all!!"


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## Philbert (Mar 21, 2017)

BB Sig said:


> Is a grinder (in the right hands) that much better than a file? . . . I'd imagine that it's all about technique and the patience to learn what you are doing.


_"Lots of ways to sharpen - everyone has to find something that works for them" - Philbert 
_
Philbert


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

BB Sig said:


> Is a grinder (in the right hands) that much better than a file? I've only ever used a file as I don't have a lot of saws. I get everything sharper than factory with my simple file and cheap Oregon file guide. I'd imagine that it's all about technique and the patience to learn what you are doing.


You can get superb results with both....you just have to put in the effort to learn....


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## HarleyT (Mar 21, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> LMAO.....you seem very angry.....I have seen MANY informative post from you...you post a lot of very good post...but no need to snap at me my friend!!!!
> 
> Just curious what your chains look like..... I post pics, to learn...you can never "know it all!!"


Snap????

Angry??

Nah.....

I might take some cutter pics again, there used to be all kinds of great info and pics and videos here...........
All of that great stuff was just thrown out......


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## HarleyT (Mar 21, 2017)

Here was a goody.....

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/racing-chain-by-art-martin.2312/


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## Khntr85 (Mar 21, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Snap????
> 
> Angry??
> 
> ...


10-4, I understand that my friend!!!!

And I will be the first to admit, I am OCD about chains...but I do believe more people should learn about chains...after all they are the best "modification" that can be done to a saw!!!!!

And as much as you post/know about saws, you can help a lot of people get their chains back in shape!!!!!


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## appalachianmcleanhotsaws (Mar 21, 2017)

Its such a fine line on sharpening chains. A grinder can do a bada$$ job if you have a skilled operator. I had a seasoned saw mechanic that did mine for years. He passed away this past year and now the same shop with same grinder couldnt get a chain sharp enough to zip a white pine. My two cents is practice tour round filing. Make sure you have the right file for the job and dont be afraid to put a littlw extra angle on your teeth. Also MAKE SURE YOUR FEELERS ARE FILED!!!


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## PDXchain (Mar 22, 2017)

Probably been said, but usually a shop will NEVER reset their grinders (same top plate angle, same head angle). My experience is that they grind all chains the same and do not consult factory grind specifications. It is almost impossible to duplicate the factory grinds. You can come closer by filing by hand!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 22, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Here was a goody.....
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/racing-chain-by-art-martin.2312/


@HarleyT, wow you are right that was a good read, I just read the whole thread....man I wish there were pictures!!!!

I better stay away from reading anything about hot saws and race chains LOL.....hell I got enough on my plate now, with all that voodoo I would be living in my garage LMAO!!!!!


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## hedge hog (Mar 22, 2017)

PDXchain said:


> Probably been said, but usually a shop will NEVER reset their grinders (same top plate angle, same head angle). My experience is that they grind all chains the same and do not consult factory grind specifications. It is almost impossible to duplicate the factory grinds. You can come closer by filing by hand!



The cutters on a new chain were sharpened before assembly that why grinder can't duplicate it 
Even a file can't or will be into tie strap 


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## mountainlake (Mar 22, 2017)

My grinder has been set on 30 60 0 for 30+ years, if theres a slight difference in a new chain angle there wont be after the first sharpening. Steve


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## Khntr85 (Mar 22, 2017)

Well no one will ever be able to duplicate a factory chain (with a file or a grinder), I doubt anyone has the same "machine" that they use at the factory to profile the cutters....

With that said you can get a chain to cut as good, or better with a file or grinder for sure.....I have really gotten into grinding and it is very fun/interesting to me....so many different angles and ways to do it....Once I found a "recipe" for each brand of chain I use, I was TOTALLY shocked at the results....I can now easily get a chain to cut as good or better than out of the box, and I can repeat this chain after chain.....

I have also realized that you can only get a chain so "sharp" before it becomes vulnerable to dulling very quick...... @Philbert told me something that I will always remember and tell myself frequently when filing/grinding.....he said, "think of the cutters like a wood chisel"....this may not seem like much, but it is a VERY true statement....if you start trying to get a wood chisel to sharp, the working edge is to weak to hold up to any kind of hard use!!!!

I have included a picture from the Stihl website...I tried to "google" a picture of their grinding machine and couldn't find one...this is all I could find....


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## HarleyT (Mar 22, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> @HarleyT, wow you are right that was a good read, I just read the whole thread....man I wish there were pictures!!!!
> 
> I better stay away from reading anything about hot saws and race chains LOL.....hell I got enough on my plate now, with all that voodoo I would be living in my garage LMAO!!!!!


It was a great one, when you could see the pics!!!


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## LoveStihlQuality (Mar 22, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Here was a goody.....
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/racing-chain-by-art-martin.2312/


You had to blow the sawdust off to dig that out.

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## Ax-man (Mar 23, 2017)

Awhile back in this thread I was asked to rekindle my relationship with my Foley 307. I had a little time on my hands so I figured what the heck let's see what happens. I dig out a Carlton A-2 chain for some practice grinding . This A2 looks like Stihl RM chain, a semi chisel not like the old style chipper chain. I decided to post up my machine grinding for comments.

First three pics are of that Carlton chain ,not my filing someone else did a real bad job filing this chain. If you have an eye for detail you know what is wrong with it . The next two pics are my grinding the tooth front and back view. Comments good or bad are welcome.

As a side note if anyone is following the Stihl usg thread I have a post on that one regarding the Stihl usg numbers and if it can be applied to my old Foley or just stick to my manuel. Again any comments would be helpful as this grinder stuff is still kind of new to me even though I had this old grinder for over 10 years.


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## Philbert (Mar 23, 2017)

You gave that chain a new life!

Did you check the depth gauges? They don't look like they were touched. 

Philbert


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## Ax-man (Mar 23, 2017)

Your right, I didn't do anything to the depth gauges yet. That will be next. I was just seeing how close I could come to making the chain look as good as if I hand filed it. Sounds like I did good , Thank-you.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 24, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> Awhile back in this thread I was asked to rekindle my relationship with my Foley 307. I had a little time on my hands so I figured what the heck let's see what happens. I dig out a Carlton A-2 chain for some practice grinding . This A2 looks like Stihl RM chain, a semi chisel not like the old style chipper chain. I decided to post up my machine grinding for comments.
> 
> First three pics are of that Carlton chain ,not my filing someone else did a real bad job filing this chain. If you have an eye for detail you know what is wrong with it . The next two pics are my grinding the tooth front and back view. Comments good or bad are welcome.
> 
> ...


Hello sir, i can't see the top plate face angle, but yep that chain will cut....looks like someone hogged out rakers pretty good prior to you getting it....just double check them.... 

As far as the angles on a usg matching up to an Oregon, no they are not the same....I have an Oregon, so I do know this first hand....I do not know much about your foley(other that I want one lol)...

Also continue to play with that usg, cause that is basically the best round grinder made right now!!!

I debated getting one, but I do like my Oregon 520 a lot...once I found out so many shops use the 511/520 Oregons, I knew it would stand up to my use, easily!!!!

Anyway keep us informed, and I would love to see pics of foley grinder.....


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## muddstopper (Mar 24, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Everyone should invest in a chain grinder! They could quit their day job, and retire early on all of the money they could make off of their sharpening for friends and neighbors!!


I took my grinder off the work bench a few weeks ago. I gave it to my buddy just down the road from me. He does stump grinding and always has a stack of chains that need sharpening. Last time I sharpened his chains, he brought in 27 loops of 3/8 for a 24in bar. I have another buddy that likes to bring me 4 or 5 chains at a time also. I have never charged either of them to sharpen their chains and they do return the favor by plowing my garden or bushhogging, and other things. Still, sharpening 27 loops of chain at one time gets old after a while. Giving the grinder to my buddy means he now can grind his own chains, and if I need to grind one, I just drive a 1/4mile to his shop and use the grinder. I have 4 or 5 saws at any given time and a few extra loops of chain laying around I try to keep sharp at all times. I dont remember the last time I bought a new chain, its been a while. Since I only cut about 4 or 5 cords a year, I can get by a whole season without having to sharpen a chain and when I do, I'll just take them all down to my buddies and hit them a lick and promise with the grinder. I just freed up a bunch of my time by getting rid of the grinder.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 24, 2017)

muddstopper said:


> I took my grinder off the work bench a few weeks ago. I gave it to my buddy just down the road from me. He does stump grinding and always has a stack of chains that need sharpening. Last time I sharpened his chains, he brought in 27 loops of 3/8 for a 24in bar. I have another buddy that likes to bring me 4 or 5 chains at a time also. I have never charged either of them to sharpen their chains and they do return the favor by plowing my garden or bushhogging, and other things. Still, sharpening 27 loops of chain at one time gets old after a while. Giving the grinder to my buddy means he now can grind his own chains, and if I need to grind one, I just drive a 1/4mile to his shop and use the grinder. I have 4 or 5 saws at any given time and a few extra loops of chain laying around I try to keep sharp at all times. I dont remember the last time I bought a new chain, its been a while. Since I only cut about 4 or 5 cords a year, I can get by a whole season without having to sharpen a chain and when I do, I'll just take them all down to my buddies and hit them a lick and promise with the grinder. I just freed up a bunch of my time by getting rid of the grinder.


What kind of grinder is it....and did you like the way it preformed??


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## muddstopper (Mar 24, 2017)

It was one of those yellow $100 Northern tool grinders. I had a $20 off coupon and paid around $80 for it. Out of the box it had to much slack in it, but I made a few bushings, threw away some of the cheap plastic knobs that wouldnt stay adjusted and it worked very well after that. The degrees chart was off about 5* and I set and marked it using a new chain. I wouldnt hesitate to buy another one just like it, but I would do so knowing it would probably need a little fine tuning before using.


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## Ax-man (Mar 24, 2017)

Khntr85, You requested more pics and info , here we go, you asked for it so this is going to be a long post and pic heavy. You have been keeping me busy with this grinder thing. Which is a good thing for me as I am learning something new.You were right about the rakers being low . Good eyes. I checked them and they were a little too low but passable. I check depth gauges with a flat piece of metal across the top of the teeth and a feeler gauge.

Next thing on the list. As I was trying to get this chain straightened out to eliminate that awful forward hook the grinding wheel started to nick the tooth stop or in other words grinding in to it due to the shortened tooth length which is well past the halfway point. I was trying to achieve the same depth on the side plate as if I was hand filing it. Am I grinding too deep or is this a common problem with a grinder or is it just my particular grinder. I can raise the height of the wheel but this seems counter intuitive to my way of sharpening . On this same note I have seen many machine sharpened chains that only seem to have had the top plate sharpened and very little on the side plate . This again is wrong to me , leaves a gullet that needs to be cleaned out before the chain will cut properly. When I first got this grinder this badly abused stop was the first thing I noticed that was wrong and am trying to avoid this mistake again if possible . This part is still available from Foley but that isn't the idea to chew up parts and then buy new ones.

Carlton chain has always been tough for me to hand file for some reason which is a reason why I chose it for this little experiment. I lucked out on this particular one because it is .058 gauge which I have no use for and I happen to have a bar for it ,a Sandvick bar of all things that mounted up to one of my old Homelites. I figured I would give this a go before moving unto my good stihl stuff.

Let's move onto the pics. My old Foley 307 which is the stand up version. In it's day it was probably the deluxe grinder too have . It has been through two mower /chainsaw dealers. I got it and other stuff when the last dealer went out of business . I only bought it to sharpen big bar rocked out chains that hit rock, concrete or tramp metal. I probably have only sharpened five to ten chains with it over the last 10 or more years since. A waste I know but I have stated in the past the pros and cons using a grinder verses hand filing which I am not going to get into here as this thread is about using a grinder verses buying factory new chains.

Top plate angle pic of this same Carlton chain and Sandvik bar mounted on an old XL to check depth gauges on my hand filing station with modified stump vise that swings from one side to the other to do right and left hand cutters. Another pic of Homelite 410 along with some tools I use to hand file. This really isn't related to the thread just thought I would toss this in for something different.

XL in my current test log ,dry old crotchy oak log and a pic of the chips my sharpening produced. Another shot of XL in a noodle type cut and the resulting noodles if you want to call them that.

Considering the saw is in fair condition mechanically, the dry old wood , Carlton chain that is tough for me to file by hand compared to Stihl or Oregon I think the results were a little better than average than I would have gotten filing this old chain by hand not to mention faster time wise . I was pleased with the results but if anyone cares to post comments good or bad please do so. It seems using a grinder has it's own set of rules to follow to get a chain sharp verses the way it is done hand filing.

Gotta love Friday nights to post on AS. That's it ,I have said too much and going a little overboard for me.


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## Philbert (Mar 24, 2017)

Long post: a couple of quick comments. 

On the Oregon style grinders the chain stop is adjustable, side-to-side, to clear the grinding wheel, when needed. 

_BOTH_ the top and side edges need to be sharp - some guys obsessed with 'hook' miss this. The side plate edge actually chops through the grain when crosscutting, and many people believe that it has the 'harder job'. 

Philbert


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## Ax-man (Mar 24, 2017)

Thanks, I'll check mine to see if I can move that stop or fix it somehow to get it out of the way of the grinding wheel. I have suspected all along that something wasn't quite right with this set-up and would definitely make this grinder more valuable to me to use.


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## Philbert (Mar 24, 2017)

Here is the Oregon chain stop side-to-side adjustment:



Philbert


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## Ax-man (Mar 24, 2017)

Wow, that is fancy compared to mine. I'll have to see if mine is missing some parts . My owners manual does have a parts diagram for this grinder.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 26, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> Thanks, I'll check mine to see if I can move that stop or fix it somehow to get it out of the way of the grinding wheel. I have suspected all along that something wasn't quite right with this set-up and would definitely make this grinder more valuable to me to use.


Wow what a cool old grinder you have!!!

I would say once you get her all set-up to your liking, you will continue to get better and better chains...

I be your grinder has a "beefy" chain stop as it seems a lot of this old grinders were built to survive the a-b$mb.....keep us posted!!!


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 27, 2017)

Yeah many of us have used grinding machines and they are fine for their intended use. Many years ago when I worked for a Stihl dealer I set up a couple of machines to do an OK job on customer chains. For me it was a matter of grinding a bit off the cutters and on to the next. Pretty much never had any complaints. For folks who want to set up a cheapo or quality grinder well they can do a nice job. There are many mods that can be done to make them perform well or to some perfect. However a hand file job is by far faster cheaper and sharper than any grinder. Yes or no? There are things that can be done with a file that are not easily done with a machine. A machine grinds every tooth the same, but a hand file job for most part takes only what is needed for every tooth so they last a little longer. A hand filed chain is a little sharper than any machine job so for a bit it is rasor sharp. It takes me less than 10 minutes to sharpen a 36" chain on the saw including touching the rakers. For me there is no debate one vs another. However it is hard for me to understand why so many get so involved with using a machine to sharpen chains that can be done better by hand. Thanks


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## HarleyT (Mar 27, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Yeah many of us have used grinding machines and they are fine for their intended use. Many years ago when I worked for a Stihl dealer I set up a couple of machines to do an OK job on customer chains. For me it was a matter of grinding a bit off the cutters and on to the next. Pretty much never had any complaints. For folks who want to set up a cheapo or quality grinder well they can do a nice job. There are many mods that can be done to make them perform well or to some perfect. However a hand file job is by far faster cheaper and sharper than any grinder. Yes or no? There are things that can be done with a file that are not easily done with a machine. A machine grinds every tooth the same, but a hand file job for most part takes only what is needed for every tooth so they last a little longer. A hand filed chain is a little sharper than any machine job so for a bit it is rasor sharp. It takes me less than 10 minutes to sharpen a 36" chain on the saw including touching the rakers. For me there is no debate one vs another. However it is hard for me to understand why so many get so involved with using a machine to sharpen chains that can be done better by hand. Thanks


There is a big difference between your "touching up" and sharpening a rocked out chain.


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## Philbert (Mar 27, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> However it is hard for me to understand why so many get so involved with using a machine to sharpen chains that can be done better by hand.



Preference. Skill levels. Consistency.

Especially when I have a bunch of chains to sharpen, or have ones that need more than a few file strokes per tooth. Learned long ago that '_sharpen_' means different things to different people: for some, it means _maintaining_ an already sharp edge; for others, it means that the back of the tooth cuts as well as the front of the tooth!
(HarleyT beat me to making this point!)

Philbert


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## Khntr85 (Mar 27, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Yeah many of us have used grinding machines and they are fine for their intended use. Many years ago when I worked for a Stihl dealer I set up a couple of machines to do an OK job on customer chains. For me it was a matter of grinding a bit off the cutters and on to the next. Pretty much never had any complaints. For folks who want to set up a cheapo or quality grinder well they can do a nice job. There are many mods that can be done to make them perform well or to some perfect. However a hand file job is by far faster cheaper and sharper than any grinder. Yes or no? There are things that can be done with a file that are not easily done with a machine. A machine grinds every tooth the same, but a hand file job for most part takes only what is needed for every tooth so they last a little longer. A hand filed chain is a little sharper than any machine job so for a bit it is rasor sharp. It takes me less than 10 minutes to sharpen a 36" chain on the saw including touching the rakers. For me there is no debate one vs another. However it is hard for me to understand why so many get so involved with using a machine to sharpen chains that can be done better by hand. Thanks


Hello sir, I see you are twice my age, so you have the upper hand in experience no doubt....you say you set your machines up to do an "ok" job.....that's just fine, but if a guy wants to do better he can, and easily as a matter of fact!!!

You say you can do a 36" chain in 10 min.....well if you can do a rocked chain in 10 minutes, my friend PLEASE post a video as I would love to learn your tricks....now if you mean you can "touch it up" that's totally different.....

As far as it being hard for you to grasp people using a machine to get a great chain, I thought the same thing at one time....however I put in the time and gave the "machine" a chance....all I can say is I am glad I did....

As far as "sharp" goes, what sharp is to me and what sharp is to my customer is a totally different thing....also what sharp is to a guy cutting pine on the coast, and what sharp is to me cutting Osage in the Midwest is 2-different worlds!!!!


With that said I ABSOLUTELY still hand file and I love doing it....but I can get a great cutting chain with a grinder too....if you get a chance please post a few pics of cutter you have filed.....please don't take this post wrong, I am just giving my 2-pennies too!!!!

Chisel(aggressive)




Semi chisel


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## CoreyB (Mar 27, 2017)

Also are we talking about work chain or a cookie cutting. I seem to be able to machine sharpen a chain at work that holds an edge longer then when I sharpen at home.


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## Ax-man (Mar 27, 2017)

Wow, Khntr your camera does an excellent job of taking those close up pics. I know my camera can do it because I have done it but taking these close up photos in my shop of chainsaw cutters leaves a little to be desired because of the lighting and shadows.

Anyway here is the latest in my ongoing romance with my grinder doing a full chisel very old Oregon 72 chain . Check out the depth gauge . Again I am trying to get the chain to look like I hand filed it. It is close but not quite. The chain cut good with that same old Homelite and test log. The chips weren't bad but the previous Carlton chain seemed to produce a little bigger chip.

I played around with the grinder yesterday pm . The question I have right now is the tilt angle for the grinding wheel. How much does the tilt affect the inside repeat inside top plate angle. In theory when you hand file it is suppose to be 45 degrees. When I got this grinder it was set at 45 and I just assumed that was correct like it would be for hand filing. My instructions call for 30 degrees which I have been doing, however I don't know if the pointer for the scale is correct . When I put one of those angle measuring devices up against the wheel it reads in the low 20's, moving the head to read 30 degrees on the angle device moves the scale to basically 40 degrees.

I first ground this chisel chain at that 40 degree setting and it looked good till I looked at the side plate, looked like it had too much hook . I went back to 30 degrees on the pointer and redid it . Do we look right from the pictures. I should have made a test cut and pics to see if there was a difference but time is limiting for taking a chain on and off the saw.

I hope I am not being a pain the rear with my posts and pics. I have kind of derailed the original thread a little.This to me is better than getting into those what is wrong with my saw threads which I try to stay out of. I also hope that maybe others are also leaning from this thread .


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 27, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Yeah many of us have used grinding machines and they are fine for their intended use. Many years ago when I worked for a Stihl dealer I set up a couple of machines to do an OK job on customer chains. For me it was a matter of grinding a bit off the cutters and on to the next. Pretty much never had any complaints. For folks who want to set up a cheapo or quality grinder well they can do a nice job. There are many mods that can be done to make them perform well or to some perfect. However a hand file job is by far faster cheaper and sharper than any grinder. Yes or no? There are things that can be done with a file that are not easily done with a machine. A machine grinds every tooth the same, but a hand file job for most part takes only what is needed for every tooth so they last a little longer. A hand filed chain is a little sharper than any machine job so for a bit it is rasor sharp. It takes me less than 10 minutes to sharpen a 36" chain on the saw including touching the rakers. For me there is no debate one vs another. However it is hard for me to understand why so many get so involved with using a machine to sharpen chains that can be done better by hand. Thanks


Until it is demonstrated, one forgets the very great difference that exists between the merely competent amateur and the very expert professional.........Linus Van Pelt. 
Sounds like you were a guy in a shop that sets up a grinder to just get them out. Like you said. 
Any skill needs work. 
Like machining.......there is a skill level. 
You have to be very self critical to get better at things. 
And one 36" loop of chain ain't squat when you are doing relief work. And the files used to do say 20 loops of rocked Stihl chain will cost a good bit. And the grinder doesn't get tired and the wheel holds an edge better than a file.


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## hedge hog (Mar 27, 2017)

Have you tried a new chain loaded in your grinder and match the angles


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## Ax-man (Mar 27, 2017)

If your talking to me, No, but that is a very good idea. I will definitely try it. More good camera shots . Are you guys using some type of extra magnifying lens or a large magnifying glass to shoot those pics. Those are incredible shots , I can see the grain of the metal in those pics just like I can when I finish hand filing .

I picked up another good idea from the pic . Coloring the connecting link. That makes a good visual for a starting and stopping point on the vise. I do that when making chains so I know which link to break.


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## hedge hog (Mar 27, 2017)

I think I did on that pic and worked great or I zoom it 


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## hedge hog (Mar 27, 2017)

Magnify glass with my iPhone 
Or zoom in


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## hedge hog (Mar 27, 2017)

That picture was with my new diamond wheel CBN and a very light pass as you can see I didn't get the cutter shiny in the very corner


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## HarleyT (Mar 27, 2017)

I worked at a shop once that had a bottle of white out on their grinder station. Also had very poor lighting. So I brought in an adjustable lamp, and one day I took the white out and gave it back to the office lady. A little later that same day, I heard one of the other guys yelling about someone taking his whiteout. I told him that I took it back to the office, I thought someone just set it there by accident.
"I need that!!!"
"Why??" I asked.

"So I know when I am done sharpening the chain!!!!!"


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## Ax-man (Mar 27, 2017)

I saw that , but that is still one wicked looking tooth. Your light years ahead of me if you have on of those CBN wheels.


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## HarleyT (Mar 27, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> I saw that , but that is still one wicked looking tooth.



That is considered a real compliment here in Ky........


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## svk (Mar 27, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> That is considered a real compliment here in Ky........


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## hedge hog (Mar 27, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> I saw that , but that is still one wicked looking tooth. Your light years ahead of me if you have on of those CBN wheels.



Thanks
I started with the CBN for the .404 chain that I sharpen for a company with Holtec saw and was nervous that wheels be a hassle when the chains are 205 drive links apiece
So I had to get the narrow wheel for the smaller chain and love it
When I get to it I will take a close up with the Stihl stone vs CBN


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Khntr85 (Mar 28, 2017)

Ax-man said:


> Wow, Khntr your camera does an excellent job of taking those close up pics. I know my camera can do it because I have done it but taking these close up photos in my shop of chainsaw cutters leaves a little to be desired because of the lighting and shadows.
> 
> Anyway here is the latest in my ongoing romance with my grinder doing a full chisel very old Oregon 72 chain . Check out the depth gauge . Again I am trying to get the chain to look like I hand filed it. It is close but not quite. The chain cut good with that same old Homelite and test log. The chips weren't bad but the previous Carlton chain seemed to produce a little bigger chip.
> 
> ...


Looks like you are betting better each time!!!!

As stated it is a great idea to try and match up your grinder to new chain....

The pictures I take are with an iPhone believe it or not....if you can keep the hand steady they take GREAT pics....


Here is a Oregon Vangaurd chain that was if horrible condition....it cuts VERY good, And these are great work chains now.......the rakers on the vanguard have to be checked....I see a lot of vanguard that the raker is so high the cutter can't bite the wood!!!!


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## jakethesnake (Mar 28, 2017)

Vanguard chain is a mess if you have only a file to work with. That looks pretty good khn


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## heimannm (Mar 28, 2017)

I give all my Vanguard chains to Philbert...

Mark


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## svk (Mar 28, 2017)

I've acquired a few Vanguard chains when I've purchased Oregon Pro-Am bars for a few of my saws. I think they cut pretty well for what they are and I have the shop by my cabin sharpen them for me.


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## CoreyB (Mar 28, 2017)

svk said:


> I've acquired a few Vanguard chains when I've purchased Oregon Pro-Am bars for a few of my saws. I think they cut pretty well for what they are and I have the shop by my cabin sharpen them for me.


I played with a vanguard a bit and had good results. Can definitely get some firewood cut with it. But did need a a bit of sorting.


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## Roofgunner (Mar 28, 2017)

When I first started sharpening chain, with just a file and no training back in the 70's (on a XL923 Homelite) I remember how frustrated I'd get. Sometimes the saw wouldn't cut straight, or cut very well. I hated having to take the blades somewhere. And then, when I did it seemed like they ground off an awful lot. Then I learned while in Kalifornia because I cut almond wood and had an unlimited supply (Blue Diamond orchards along I-5) to heat the house. I got one of those Oregon Shure sharpes and learned to use it. There was a lady in a chain saw shop in Woodland that told me to use a carrot to keep the stone wet and cool. She said that if you overheat the tooth while sharpening it the temper will go out and some shops get them too hot while sharpening. I have no problem now keeping the blades sharp for my 445 and 372XP. The main thing is to master the device you use to sharpen, don't take the temper out of the teeth, be consistent and make sure the depth gauges are proper and all the same and keep the bar and chain out of the dirt. New or used the blade will cut. The chips will tell you when you need to resharpen.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 28, 2017)

jakethesnake said:


> Vanguard chain is a mess if you have only a file to work with. That looks pretty good khn


Yes filing the rakers on the vanguards with a flat file would be like torchere LOL....

Once I got the teeth sharp and the rakers down, these chains flat out cut great....glad I got them back into shape...


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## hedge hog (Mar 28, 2017)

Okay some pics
Set up





Wheels
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/ae1a4f03d63122fe964a8384f393e0cd.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/eb191e8109a3ae5e98be6cd260a5c3cf.jpg
The next 2 are Stihl grinding wheel







The next 2 are CBN








And ''tis picture is too show I found this chain on a busy highway and recycled it
Look at the rivet it was hell to straighten 
3/8 Stihl chisel chain






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## Stihl 041S (Mar 28, 2017)

Nice exhaust. 

Wheel need dressing??


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

No one ever said we have a chain sharping God in the forums . Those are some Wicked angles.[emoji106]

Woodblocker55

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

How do you get 10 degree vise tip ? I do know some guys don't bother with it .

Woodblocker55

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## Khntr85 (Mar 29, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Okay some pics
> Set up
> 
> 
> ...


Looking very nice man!!!!
Your setup truly is sweet....my is mounted on my work bench which is dirty....I got saws, saw parts, tools, and whom kws what else laying around.....my damn work bench really does look like a Stihl grave yard....

Anyway those chains will no doubt cut very fast!!!


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

The Stihl wheel I used didn't load 






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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> Nice exhaust.
> 
> Wheel need dressing??



It sucks all the sparks and dust up and stays cleaner than my work benches 

CBN never needs dressing 
The Stihl does


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> How do you get 10 degree vise tip ? I do know some guys don't bother with it .
> 
> Woodblocker55
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk



Table slides back and forth 











And set it at zero for rakers


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> No one ever said we have a chain sharping God in the forums . Those are some Wicked angles.[emoji106]
> 
> Woodblocker55
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk



I don't burn wood in my house or shop only outside fire pit
But sell a lot of it and its work and enjoy it
But I'm starting to enjoy sharpening more and more 
And it's easier on the back


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

I just got on my computer and the cutter pics didn't turn out very good too much zoom on the iphone so I will redo
and tapatalk didn't like loading them on one post
a redo is in order after I get off work


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

This is really hmm goofy but I do it to my sharpened chains if you take a piece of brass like .020 brass tag and run it across sharp edge it will remove burrs and leave a perfect edge. It's a tool maker trick on dies . It makes edge very clean and in dies you did it to keep hardened steel from hitting the punch . But in wood it makes grab hard and really bit. That's some over kill for you. [emoji106][emoji41]

Woodblocker55

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

My Oregon chains say 10 degrees on vise. But I have sharpened them at 0 most of the time. Only when got extra time. Might be over kill again lol 

Woodblocker55

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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

The 15 + - is Stihl 10 degrees 
And there 40 is really 60 degrees






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## Khntr85 (Mar 29, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> The 15 + - is Stihl 10 degrees
> And there 40 is really 60 degrees
> 
> 
> ...


Hey did you measure the Stihl and Oregon grinder to knownthat the 40 on the Stihl is 60 on the Oregon.....I have always been curious of what the difference is in the way both brands "measure" their angles....


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hey did you measure the Stihl and Oregon grinder to knownthat the 40 on the Stihl is 60 on the Oregon.....I have always been curious of what the difference is in the way both brands "measure" their angles....



Yes there same 
There grinders are weird numbers for some and it might be they can do hedge clippers 
40= 60
15=10
Top plate angles are normal


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 29, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> It sucks all the sparks and dust up and stays cleaner than my work benches
> 
> CBN never needs dressing
> The Stihl does


With CBN and diamond wheels "dressing" means cleaning. 
On these little grinders anyway. 
A white stick to get rid of the steel in the wheel. 
Most come with them.


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## svk (Mar 29, 2017)

Real good stuff here on the last few pages!


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## Andrewpowley (Mar 29, 2017)

This thread made me want to find out what the local dealer charges to grind a chain... starts at $10 and goes up to $18


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## MontanaResident (Mar 29, 2017)

Motivation for anyone to learn to sharpen a chain. I bought two 84l 3/8 skip-tooth chisel Husky chains last year, and $19.99 each.



Andrewpowley said:


> This thread made me want to find out what the local dealer charges to grind a chain... starts at $10 and goes up to $18


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## CoreyB (Mar 29, 2017)

It is hard for me to understand why more people don't learn I enjoy sharpening. But hey I will accept payment for something I enjoy


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## MontanaResident (Mar 29, 2017)

I do my neighbors for free. The ones that take me up on this hardly use their saws. And for those that do use their saws a bit more then hardly, they don't care if it is a little (or a lot) dull as long as it does cut.



CoreyB said:


> It is hard for me to understand why more people don't learn I enjoy sharpening. But hey I will accept payment for something I enjoy


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## svk (Mar 29, 2017)

CoreyB said:


> It is hard for me to understand why more people don't learn I enjoy sharpening. But hey I will accept payment for something I enjoy


Good question. I think for many it is time. If a tree guy is making XX per hour or could save 1/4 of that by sharpening his own chains he is more likely to farm it out. Or for someone who is already stressed for time, they would rather just pay six or ten bucks then fiddle with sharpening. For others, its the learning curve. You are going to mess up a few before you get it right and some folks just don't want to take that risk.


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 29, 2017)

svk said:


> Good question. I think for many it is time. If a tree guy is making XX per hour or could save 1/4 of that by sharpening his own chains he is more likely to farm it out. Or for someone who is already stressed for time, they would rather just pay six or ten bucks then fiddle with sharpening. For others, its the learning curve. You are going to mess up a few before you get it right and some folks just don't want to take that risk.


Grinding is easy if you look at it right.
Read a bunch.
Grind 2 chains. Just take a little. But different angle.

Take a pic and label the pic what you did.

Go cut with them side by side.

Which one you like??

Change the one you didn't like. Pics and labeling again. 

Compare again.

2 chains and a few hours and you can learn a lot.


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## HarleyT (Mar 29, 2017)

MontanaResident said:


> I do my neighbors for free.



Until their husbands comes home?


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 29, 2017)

HarleyT said:


> Until their husbands comes home?


Then he charges????


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## MontanaResident (Mar 29, 2017)

Cookies, bread or any baked goods.



Stihl 041S said:


> Then he charges????


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## HarleyT (Mar 29, 2017)

I always am a sucker for a nice muffin....


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

Sharpen with stone










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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

still not good enough
half zoom power


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

CBN 









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## rwoods (Mar 29, 2017)

I'm a hit and go sharpener but am trying to learn to do better. My skills are poor but I am convinced that good light and good eyesight (natural or aided) are essential - I don't have good lighting. 

Hedge hog's posts got me to playing with the Iphone - amazing what you can see when it focuses. On one chain I noticed that all the right cutters had a tiny mashed corner - if sharpened just a little more it would be no more. 

FWIW here are a few shots of two chains sharpened inside out with a TECOMEC with an undersized Dinosaw (labeled wrong and too late to exchange). As I said I hit them and go - maybe I should clean the chains first. Ron


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

Looks great trick I use for radius is if you draw line from point straight down to chain . There should be a perfect 1/2 moon shape . If it's not the fix is the radius on wheel needs dressing or cleaning. 
Woodblocker55

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## rwoods (Mar 29, 2017)

To my knowledge there is no way for a layman to dress a Dinosaw wheel - mine certainly isn't as round as I would like. Isn't even close to the roundness of a file. Ron


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

rwoods said:


> To my knowledge there is no way for a layman to dress a Dinosaw wheel - mine certainly isn't as round as I would like. Isn't even close to the roundness of a file. Ron


nice pics
first two looks to get a little warm on the tip second two look really good
I clean with old gas just to get the oil off , a 1 gallon bucket with a inch or 2 in the bottom and slosh around pull them out a blow them off with compressed air
and for being round I don't think it matters at all or the square ground chains shouldn't work as good as they do


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

It don't have to be exact just guide.

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 29, 2017)

Tapatalk doesn't like my edited drawings lol but I think it's right now.
Woodblocker55

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## rwoods (Mar 29, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> nice pics
> first two looks to get a little warm on the tip second two look really good
> I clean with old gas just to get the oil off , a 1 gallon bucket with a inch or 2 in the bottom and slosh around pull them out a blow them off with compressed air
> and for being round I don't think it matters at all or the square ground chains shouldn't work as good as they do



I noticed several that were blue though you couldn't see it looking from the top down. So much for you don't need to pay attention because the Dinosaw cyclone wheel keeps them cool. After reading this thread I also noticed how filthy my wheel is. I better clean it as well. Ron


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 29, 2017)

rwoods said:


> I noticed several that were blue though you couldn't see it looking from the top down. So much for you don't need to pay attention because the Dinosaw cyclone wheel keeps them cool. After reading this thread I also noticed how filthy my wheel is. I better clean it as well. Ron


Cleaning Stick from Norton
38A220/1-H8VBE 61463610103

Don't know how much of those numbers you need. 
I show the cleaning stick to fastenal with those numbers on it and more show up.


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## hedge hog (Mar 29, 2017)

Stihl 041S said:


> Cleaning Stick from Norton
> 38A220/1-H8VBE 61463610103
> 
> Don't know how much of those numbers you need.
> I show the cleaning stick to fastenal with those numbers on it and more show up.



Do you have any luck with the cleaning sticks?
The sticks that came with my diamond wheel don't seem to do that good


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 29, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Do you have any luck with the cleaning sticks?
> The sticks that came with my diamond wheel don't seem to do that good
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I got a Diamond Brand CBN wheel. 
The stick that came with it worked. And so do these. 
These I use on my diamond wheels too. 
It eats it right up but that dull surface cuts so nice and cool and doesn't have that sound that is like nails on a chalkboard to a tool&cutter grinder like me.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 30, 2017)

I don't remember if I mentioned it, but I am using a Oregon 520 to sharpen my chains....I have CBN and stone wheels...


Stone wheel



Rakers not hit yet



Stihl RS(CBN wheel I believe)


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## hedge hog (Mar 30, 2017)

Wow 
Nice job!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 30, 2017)

Thanks


hedge hog said:


> Wow
> Nice job!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


hey man your chains look great.....would be sweet if you lived close to me, we could do some experiments with angles and come up with some great chains......

I have not tried it, but I had an older man tell me that a 20 degree top plate angle stays sharp for a long time and cuts good too....he said he has been grinding his customers chains like that for years.....now this was not in person I met him on a chainsaw site, so I/we can take that with a grain of salt.....

Someone should start a thread here that's just for grinding chains....I started one at O&@ forum and it's been a great ongoing thread with lots of pics and tricks from guys that have been grinding/sharpening for years!!!!!

Look forward to seeing more pics from you, I absolutely love your set-up man....it's one of the coolest I have seen and as you can tell I am obsessed with grinding and have seen quite a few!!!!!


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## Ax-man (Mar 30, 2017)

I would like to say thank-you to all you guys ,especially HH for taking the time to post up these pics and show how to properly sharpen a chain with a grinder. That Stihl grinder HH has is impressive and his custom set up is so cool it looks very professional. That Stihl grinder is very similar to my old clunker, if I was to take the plunge and buy one I think we would get along just fine.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 30, 2017)

@Ax-man Hey how are you coming along....are you getting those chains to cut how you like them???


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## Khntr85 (Mar 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> I'm a hit and go sharpener but am trying to learn to do better. My skills are poor but I am convinced that good light and good eyesight (natural or aided) are essential - I don't have good lighting.
> 
> Hedge hog's posts got me to playing with the Iphone - amazing what you can see when it focuses. On one chain I noticed that all the right cutters had a tiny mashed corner - if sharpened just a little more it would be no more.
> 
> ...


Hello sir, have you ever cleaned your wheel....if that wheels is loaded it will cause that little bit of burning on the tips....

I know I can still burn a cutter with my CBN wheel, but i would have to try and take a lot of material off to do it.....

Just keep doing the tap-tap-tap method and you will be fine...

What angles are you using on your tecomec grinder??


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## Ax-man (Mar 30, 2017)

Getting there, it has been a long time since I got so involved in the process of sharpening a chainsaw chain , measuring tooth length, checking depth gauges and looking at cutter profiles , grinding bar rails on some of my old bars and sharpening chain.

Yesterday I did a little experiment with my 046 , cleaned up the rails on an old bar and hand filed an old but still good RS chain. Cut very good and smooth but wandered to the left a little in the cut. Sharpened that same chain in the grinder to see if there was a difference , it did OK but not as fast as the hand filing, I had to redo the depth gauges and then it cut great like the hand filing and cut straight in the wood . I really didn't think the chain was that far off to begin as far as tooth length but when the chain was on the grinder you see how much difference there was in tooth length by how much was being taken off. It wasn't much but in the same respect it was enough that in the end all the cutters were the same length. I measured also and both the right and left cutters were the same length which made the saw cut straighter in the wood

I am coming around to the idea that machine grinding can accomplish the same results as hand filing it the machine is set up properly and a gentle touch when grinding the teeth.


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## rwoods (Mar 30, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hello sir, have you ever cleaned your wheel....if that wheels is loaded it will cause that little bit of burning on the tips....
> 
> I know I can still burn a cutter with my CBN wheel, but i would have to try and take a lot of material off to do it.....
> 
> ...



Never been cleaned. I tried to find the above referenced Norton stick on the Fastenal website but couldn't.

I normally do 30* 60* no tilt on Stihl chisel. 35* 90* no tilt on semi-chisel. Those in the photo were done 35* 60* no tilt. I forgot to change back to 30* so I just kept going. Won't matter much how long they'll stay sharp as this Saturday they'll be on my saws in the hands of amateurs that hit the dirt so often that all I get done is changing chains. I wish I had more semi-chisel for the event. 

Two of the chains will never be sharpened again as there would be no overlap left. Maybe in the next few months I can sharpen some to compare.

Ron


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## Khntr85 (Mar 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> Never been cleaned. I tried to find the above referenced Norton stick on the Fastenal website but couldn't.
> 
> I normally do 30* 60* no tilt on Stihl chisel. 35* 90* no tilt on semi-chisel. Those in the photo were done 35* 60* no tilt. I forgot to change back to 30* so I just kept going. Won't matter much how long they'll stay sharp as this Saturday they'll be on my saws in the hands of amateurs that hit the dirt so often that all I get done is changing chains. I wish I had more semi-chisel for the event.
> 
> ...


Did they send a dressing stick with your wheel....were did you get it...I heard those are top of the line wheels...mine is a diamond brand wheel...


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## rwoods (Mar 30, 2017)

No stick included. I got it from Bailey's. I was so ignorant that I didn't know for at least two years and 100+ sharpenings that the wheel was mislabeled and undersized. I intend to buy the right size (5mm) at some point. In the meantime I am trying to get better with a file.

Ron


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## Woodblocker55 (Mar 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> Never been cleaned. I tried to find the above referenced Norton stick on the Fastenal website but couldn't.
> 
> I normally do 30* 60* no tilt on Stihl chisel. 35* 90* no tilt on semi-chisel. Those in the photo were done 35* 60* no tilt. I forgot to change back to 30* so I just kept going. Won't matter much how long they'll stay sharp as this Saturday they'll be on my saws in the hands of amateurs that hit the dirt so often that all I get done is changing chains. I wish I had more semi-chisel for the event.
> 
> ...


You guys are getting deep enough in to grinding look in the enco website . For cleaning stick . It's all machinist stuff. 
[emoji41] 
Woodblocker55

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## Stihl 041S (Mar 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> Never been cleaned. I tried to find the above referenced Norton stick on the Fastenal website but couldn't.
> 
> I normally do 30* 60* no tilt on Stihl chisel. 35* 90* no tilt on semi-chisel. Those in the photo were done 35* 60* no tilt. I forgot to change back to 30* so I just kept going. Won't matter much how long they'll stay sharp as this Saturday they'll be on my saws in the hands of amateurs that hit the dirt so often that all I get done is changing chains. I wish I had more semi-chisel for the event.
> 
> ...


When fastenal doesn't stock something they will usually buy it thru third party.
Or Contact Norton.


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## Khntr85 (Mar 31, 2017)

rwoods said:


> No stick included. I got it from Bailey's. I was so ignorant that I didn't know for at least two years and 100+ sharpenings that the wheel was mislabeled and undersized. I intend to buy the right size (5mm) at some point. In the meantime I am trying to get better with a file.
> 
> Ron


well it was mislabeled, so I can see how that would go un-noticed....if you use that on the right size chain youbwill get great results!!!!


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## hedge hog (Mar 31, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Thanks
> 
> hey man your chains look great.....would be sweet if you lived close to me, we could do some experiments with angles and come up with some great chains......
> 
> ...



I have only tried 30-35 as a top plate angle and for a while I used 32 1/2 
They say the harder the wood is the greater the angle needs to be 
Hedge is my main cutting wood and I could not tell any difference between 
30 to 35
I stick with 30 because the customers 

I ran a 55 degree hook for a while and could see a difference and touch up filing is one to two pass max because the file would only contact the upper part of the cutter and won't drag in the gullet but my 441 c-m would break a few cutters in really hard hedge that I would get into
Customers that don't file get 60 degrees 
Ones that do and mine get 58 degrees


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## hedge hog (Mar 31, 2017)

55 seem to cut faster but dulled fast but filed faster but tended to break on my big saw 
The next time I rock a chain out I will try 20 degrees 
Because I use 20 to take damaged part of the point of the cutter off with less heat because I'm not cutting the full length of the top plate 
Then I come back 30 with only just a kiss to the point of the cutter and the tail of the top plate is getting ground
Works great
As for grinders they are all good as the operators 
And lighting is best friend 
If it wasn't for the contract to sharpen the .404 205 DL I don't know what brand of grinder I would be using but I would have one 
And CBN is a no brainer now




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## Philbert (Mar 31, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> They say the harder the wood is the greater the angle needs to be
> Hedge is my main cutting wood and I could not tell any difference between
> 30 to 35. I stick with 30 . . .


I understand the opposite - for hard wood I would wat to try a 25 degree top plate angle. 

Philbert


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## Khntr85 (Mar 31, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> 55 seem to cut faster but dulled fast but filed faster but tended to break on my big saw
> The next time I rock a chain out I will try 20 degrees
> Because I use 20 to take damaged part of the point of the cutter off with less heat because I'm not cutting the full length of the top plate
> Then I come back 30 with only just a kiss to the point of the cutter and the tail of the top plate is getting ground
> ...



Wow 205 DL is a lot to sharpen lol....
.

I believe the "more" angle that you put on the top plate ie; anything higher than 30, puts more stress on the cutters point....That may be why the cutter broke on your chain, I know how hard hedge is I cut it fairly regularly....man that stuff dulls a chain fast....

I bet the reason Oregon calls for a 25 degree top plate on their full chisel chain is because the 10 degree tilt puts so much of a point on the cutter....they want that 25 degree top plate to "strengthen" out the point some....

If I get around to it I will grind a Stihl chisel chain 25-55-0.....or if I do an Oregon chain I will go 20-55-10.....that would mean that I would be putting 5 less degrees of angle on the chain...who knows maybe the chain will hold up a little bit longer....I will post pics if I get around to doing it....

Wow when I re-read this it really makes me sound like a chain obsessed nerd LOL....I just hope someone else can understand what I have wrote LMAO!!!!


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## Khntr85 (Mar 31, 2017)

Oh and @hedge hog i meant to ask you.....since you cut a lot of Osage, do you use semi-chisel or full-chisel chain.....when I know I am going to be cutting a lot of it I always grab the Stihl RM(semi-chisel)......seems to last a decent amount of time, considering how darn hard the wood is....


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## hedge hog (Mar 31, 2017)

Semi on all my saws 
Still have few chisel I use but replace with semi
I swear the chisel chains I have the cutters are made out of rare earth magnets 


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 31, 2017)

It is becoming apparent to me that more than a few folks love their chain grinders even though a very cost effective optional system exists. If my camera could take some good close up pictures my chain pictures would be included. A camera upgrade will be in order ASAP. From what the grinders and sharpened chains pictures are showing it is clear that for most part the factory grind and machine ground chain are working fine. So what is not to like. I started sharpening my chains when I was 14 because there was no other option. My father did not know how to use a saw and was not available often so it was up to me to figure out how to sharpen a chain. By trial and error my filing system kept improving over the years. A dealer friend of mine showed me a guide to sharpening chain and it appeared to be straight forward easy peasy. Now with quite a bit of experience and knowing what is needed for the wood at hand it takes about the same time to file a chain whether it is rocked out or needs just a touch up as changing chains. A really badly nicked chain could take as long as 20 minute for a long bar or less than 10 minutes for a shorter chain. Now with that being said many different angles exist that will help navigating into different types of wood that does make a significant difference, but changing angles are not easily done on a grinder only horizontal angles can be changed. However angle changes are only very small difference that will make very small changes in cutting performances. As long as the chips are flying there are different strokes for different folks. Thanks


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## Philbert (Mar 31, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> As long as the chips are flying there are different strokes for different folks.


+1

Philbert


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## rwoods (Mar 31, 2017)

I just ordered a 5mm Dinasaw Cyclone wheel from Left Coast. Great folks and great price. Only the smaller diameter wheels are on the website so you have to call for the larger ones. Ron


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 31, 2017)

rwoods said:


> I just ordered a 5mm Dinasaw Cyclone wheel from Left Coast. Great folks and great price. Only the smaller diameter wheels are on the website so you have to call for the larger ones. Ron



What grit do the vented wheels come in?
A course one would be nice to have for really rocked chains. 
Ones in relief work get REALLY bad. Lol


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## HarleyT (Mar 31, 2017)

Have you guys ever been brought a chain so bad that you refused to even try to sharpen it for any price?
I just raise my sharpening charge as high as a new one.


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## rwoods (Mar 31, 2017)

From Bailey's website: 

Q. What grit size are these wheels?
A. Dinasaw uses a blend of Borazon to achieve the best results. The grit comparison would roughly be between 60 and 80 grit on the ABN Cyclone Grinding wheels. 

Ron


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## HarleyT (Mar 31, 2017)

Working on a little Eager Beaver, well, I just would refuse...
Period...


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## rwoods (Mar 31, 2017)

Also from Bailey's website: 

Q. I just ordered one of these wheels and was wondering what I am supposed to use to clean/dress it with? I have heard to use the White aluminum oxide sticks? I realize its just to clean the wheel, and not change the profile.
A. You do not want to use anything as abrasive as stone. The best method to clean is a wire brush and/or acetone.

Ron


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## Stihl 041S (Mar 31, 2017)

rwoods said:


> From Bailey's website:
> 
> Q. What grit size are these wheels?
> A. Dinasaw uses a blend of Borazon to achieve the best results. The grit comparison would roughly be between 60 and 80 grit on the ABN Cyclone Grinding wheels.
> ...


Yea. They say 60-70 on the add. 
That is rougher than the CBN wheel I sharpen with.


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## hedge hog (Mar 31, 2017)

Sonic cleaner works great


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## rwoods (Mar 31, 2017)

Wish I had one - sonic cleaner, but not a priority. Ron


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## CoreyB (Mar 31, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Sonic cleaner works great
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is what I use on our cbn wheels and it works great.


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## Woodblocker55 (Apr 5, 2017)

Philbert said:


> I understand the opposite - for hard wood I would wat to try a 25 degree top plate angle.
> 
> Philbert


I always use 25 degree in oak seems to stay sharp longer . I tried 30 and dulls fast was my findings. 3/8 chain and .325. 

Woodblocker55

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## rwoods (Apr 5, 2017)

5mm Dinasaw arrived today. Actual measurement is 5.25 mm or 13/64". Too much going on now through the weekend so trying it will have to wait.

Ron


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## Pioneer (Apr 5, 2017)

Blast from the past.


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## hedge hog (Apr 6, 2017)

Pioneer said:


> Blast from the past.
> 
> 
> View attachment 570844



Wow .060 on rakers that would hell on a chain and a saw!


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## Khntr85 (Apr 6, 2017)

Pioneer said:


> Blast from the past.
> 
> 
> View attachment 570844


 Very Interesting....35 top-plate....would like to run that and see how it worked....of course some say the old saws had more torque that the higher RPM saws of today...


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## Khntr85 (Apr 6, 2017)

Here is a .325 Stihl RM chain I ground with the CBN wheel....



Here is some silver maple chips from my 026 with a .325 Oregon full chisel chain.....I forgot to take a picture of the chain.......I ground it at Oregons specs.....25-55-10.....it's amazing how much easier these softer woods cut when I am used to cutting hardwoods....


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## Woodblocker55 (Apr 6, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Wow .060 on rakers that would hell on a chain and a saw!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes that's twice as much as .404 chain. What the heck. .030 makes my 77cc burn some serious fuel . Must be for that twin cylinder chainsaw that was posted while back lol. [emoji3][emoji106]

Woodblocker55

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## hedge hog (Apr 6, 2017)

Woodblocker55 said:


> Yes that's twice as much as .404 chain. What the heck. .030 makes my 77cc burn some serious fuel . Must be for that twin cylinder chainsaw that was posted while back lol. [emoji3][emoji106]
> 
> Woodblocker55
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk



The Stihl.404 chains I sharpen to specs I have set the rakers at .032 every time I sharpen them 
There powered by a 10 horsepower electric motor 


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## Ted Jenkins (Apr 7, 2017)

Silver Maple that is not seasoned in a very low humidity environment is much different than very dry aged Oak. The setup needed to take advantage of the best chain possible is much different. I have discovered with soft wood that an aggressive angle with some low rakers will melt through the logs. The rakers are not so crucial for soft woods, but with hard woods the rakers are very crucial in that they need to be just right. The cutters will get dull in just a couple of cuts if the rakers or too high, but will chatter like crazy if they are too too low. However with large Oak logs an aggressive raker depth with a more shallow angle and the leading edge a little blunt works well as far as staying sharp the longest. Chisel chain has not proven to be of any value in California, but in other states they seem to be the E ticket. For me semi chisel has proven to be the best here. Thanks


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## Philbert (Apr 7, 2017)

If you _know_ what you will be cutting, it's possible to optimize the chain for the wood, your saw, etc. 

If you don't know what you will be cutting it helps to use the general angles. These are the angles that manufacturers recommend, and that come from the factories. 

Another option is to have different chains optimized for different types of wood, or current conditions, and swap them out as needed. Kind of like a socket set. 

Philbert


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## svk (Apr 7, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Another option is to have different chains optimized for different types of wood, or current conditions, and swap them out as needed. Kind of like a socket set.


Good idea!

I do not buy semi chisel chain unless chisel isn't available for that size but always end up with some of it in each common DL length. I keep it around just in case I need to cut some gritty stuff.

I need to clean the garage so this weekend I am going to individually bag and label all of my chains so I never need to stop and count DL's again.


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## rwoods (Apr 15, 2017)

rwoods said:


> 5mm Dinasaw arrived today. Actual measurement is 5.25 mm or 13/64". Too much going on now through the weekend so trying it will have to wait.
> 
> Ron



First sharpenings with new wheel. Outside to inside; 30* 60* no tilt. Ron


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## Philbert (Apr 15, 2017)

Looks like a coarse cutting wheel, but hard to tell from the photos. How does it compare to grinds made with other wheels? 

Is there a grit size listed (e.g. 60 grit, 80 grit, etc..)?

Thanks.

Philbert


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## rwoods (Apr 15, 2017)

The only other wheel I have is a 4mm Dinasaw. Grinder came with a pink wheel but it broke when it hit the floor - never got to use it. Pictures from previous post showing results of 4mm wheel on 3/8ths. Ron







Post 350: 

From Bailey's website:

Q. What grit size are these wheels?
A. Dinasaw uses a blend of Borazon to achieve the best results. The grit comparison would roughly be between 60 and 80 grit on the ABN Cyclone Grinding wheels.

Ron


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## Khntr85 (Apr 15, 2017)

rwoods said:


> First sharpenings with new wheel. Outside to inside; 30* 60* no tilt. Ron
> 
> View attachment 572964
> View attachment 572965
> ...


What brand of grinder do you have....

Only reason I ask is because I have a Oregon 520...with my grinderbthe 60 top plate face angle is way to blunt....on mine 50-55 degree head tilt puts the perfect hook on my chains.

Looks like you won't be burning cuttiers with that whee..... does it cut fast, looks like it does...


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## rwoods (Apr 15, 2017)

Tecomec. Ron


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## hedge hog (Apr 20, 2017)

.404 205 drive link





Hanging off the floor at 6'10 3/4" and almost touching




Taking a big cut with the diamond wheel and it's rolling the chrome a little but it had a 164 cuts on the chain mounted to a Holtec saw that cuts bundles of lumber 
So there is 284 2x4 ina bundle 
so 46,500 or or so of 2x4's on this chain https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170421/d0747be0d2df45806232d0cbcd3aea03.jpg[/IMG
This is the amount of chain that is under the the grinder knotty up with the rail guides 50 1/2" off the floor
It's a workout for 25$ and still knock the rackers down to .32 


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## SierraWoodsman (Apr 20, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> .404 205 drive link
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And a full comp chain at that... Must go on one beast of a saw!


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## Khntr85 (Apr 21, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> .404 205 drive link
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that will throw some chips!!!


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

10 horsepower electric and it never pulls down
For the pic that didn't load of the knot of chain under the grinder






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## Philbert (Apr 21, 2017)

Looks like you need some kind of 'bogey wheel' to keep things off the floor. Maybe one that is removable when not needed?



Philbert


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

I tried a little and give up
But it's still on my mind 


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Looks like you need some kind of 'bogey wheel' to keep things off the floor. Maybe one that is removable when not needed?
> 
> View attachment 574345
> 
> Philbert



Thanks for the inspiration !
Had serval beers any jury rig a plastic roller so it wouldn't dull the teeth and haven't fine tuned it yet but wanted to thank you for the drawing and I will post the prototype 
You are a hella guy to have around to help unworthy electricians sharpen chains. LOL


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

Will tell you that there will be some copper involved and soldering and that # 6 solid will still let me turn the table to 30 degrees but no further 


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Will tell you that there will be some copper involved and soldering and that # 6 solid will still let me turn the table to 30 degrees but no further
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hedge hog (Apr 21, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk













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## Philbert (Apr 21, 2017)

I like it! 'Use of indigenous materials'!

Some of the expensive auto grinders use weights or springs to hold the bottom of the loop(s) in place - might give you some other ideas.

Philbert


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## president (Dec 12, 2018)

Woodblocker55 said:


> You got deep pockets go for $500 Oregon one . [emoji106][emoji3]
> 
> Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk


at that price range step into the USG,


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## old guy (Dec 12, 2018)

Woodblocker55 said:


> This all you need to make them better then factory . First timers takes about 5 sharpening to get the hang of it . And you'll be on your way .
> key point is set vise to 10 degrees ( Oregon chains ) the right way and don't hit the chain links set the the stop down correct . you will say
> wow I should of bought one along time ago ... ( that's what I said  and you need to get good at dressing grind wheel to right radius . Gauge and
> instructions come with it . only thing was bad in the instructions was they didn't explain the 10 degree vise very well .. otherwise its priceless .
> ...


I too have one of these and consider it very nearly as good as the 511 oregons which I have two of.


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## Woodblocker55 (Dec 13, 2018)

old guy said:


> I too have one of these and consider it very nearly as good as the 511 oregons which I have two of.


I got another one on special sale $79 crazy thats great deal just wheels would cost that much . It sharped my chains for last 5 years maybe 25 sharpens a year. 

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## MontanaResident (Dec 13, 2018)

old guy said:


> I too have one of these and consider it very nearly as good as the 511 oregons which I have two of.



I do 40 to 50 sharpening a season with my Oregon clone. It took some fussing with (an extra washer underneath) to get the swivel plate to tighten down properly, and then I have never had a single problem with the machine.


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## Philbert (Dec 13, 2018)

MontanaResident said:


> I do 40 to 50 sharpening a season with my Oregon clone. It took some fussing with (an extra washer underneath) to get the swivel plate to tighten down properly, and then I have never had a single problem with the machine.


Have you tried it with different wheels to see if there is a performance difference?

Philbert


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## MontanaResident (Dec 13, 2018)

Philbert said:


> Have you tried it with different wheels to see if there is a performance difference?
> 
> Philbert



I only have the ceramic wheels that came with the grinder. The CBN wheels are on my wish list after the ceramic and its replacement wheel dies.


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## Woodblocker55 (Dec 13, 2018)

I'm still on my original wheels. They don't wear out lol. Maybe 4 years now . Needs dressing about every 2 sharpenings of a 16 inch chain .

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## MontanaResident (Dec 13, 2018)

The CBN wheels are suppose to generate less heat for more aggressive metal removal. On badly rocked chains, that would be nice. With the original wheels, and a rocked chain, I have had to make 3, 4, or 5 passes to get a good edge without burning the cutters. Not fun.



Woodblocker55 said:


> I'm still on my original wheels. They don't wear out lol. Maybe 4 years now . Needs dressing about every 2 sharpenings of a 16 inch chain .
> 
> Sent from my LGL84VL using Tapatalk


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## Philbert (Dec 13, 2018)

MontanaResident said:


> I only have the ceramic wheels that came with the grinder. The CBN wheels are on my wish list after the ceramic and its replacement wheel dies.





MontanaResident said:


> The CBN wheels are suppose to generate less heat for more aggressive metal removal.



I appear to be in the minority, but prefer a well-dressed vitrified (e.g. 'pink') wheel. The CBN wheels I tried generate less dust, but I can still easily overheat a cutter with them. Especially STIHL cutters for some reason.

I have used various 'pink' wheels, and tried a Tecomec 'brown' wheel (the color, of course, is just added, and can vary with manufacturer), along with resinoid wheels:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/resinoid-grinder-wheels.256733/

One of the biggest differences I noted was replacing a fine, OEM wheel with a coarser, Oregon replacement wheel, when comparing some of the smaller, cheaper grinders:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oregon-310-mini-grinder.283691/ (Post #11)
"_Tried the replacement wheel today. *BIG* difference! Almost like comparing a sharp and dull chain. It was so much fun that I grabbed another chain to sharpen!_"

Makes sense, right? If a sharp chain makes a big difference on a saw, a better wheel will do the same on a grinder.

Philbert


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## MontanaResident (Dec 13, 2018)

I agree and believe you. I have read and was told by 'experts' here that the CBN wheels are superior in all ways. I tend to treat experts here with a good measure of skepticism and have resisted spending $100+ to confirm what I naturally doubt. The pink wheels work fine for now.



Philbert said:


> I appear to be in the minority, but prefer a well-dressed vitrified (e.g. 'pink') wheel. The CBN wheels I tried generate less dust, but I can still easily overheat a cutter with them. Especially STIHL cutters for some reason.
> 
> I have used various 'pink' wheels, and tried a Tecomec 'brown' wheel (the color, of course, is just added, and can vary with manufacturer), along with resinoid wheels:
> https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/resinoid-grinder-wheels.256733/
> ...


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## HarleyT (Dec 13, 2018)

I am a "pink" man myself!!!


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## mountainlake (Dec 13, 2018)

With all the hype on CBN wheels on here I bought one , not impressed . Seems to burn cutters worse than my old gray wheel. Steve


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## HarleyT (Dec 13, 2018)

Yeah, I went to work at a shop, listened to all of the blather about their "wheels".
After a few sharpenings, I ordered pink wheels...


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## HarleyT (Dec 13, 2018)

Just me......

I am sure that they are great!!!


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## Philbert (Dec 13, 2018)

In fairness, there may be different brands and grades of CBN wheels, that perform differently.

Philbert


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## heimannm (Dec 13, 2018)

I bought the CBN wheels from Bailey's to replace the pink wheels that came with my Carlton grinder, I much prefer the CBN, cuts faster with less heat and so far they (I have both the 1/8 and 3/16" for different size chains) have held up extremely well. I started grinding chains using the pink wheels that came with the Carlton and developed the tap-tap-tap method to minimize heating the cutters, a technique that has carried over to grinding chains with the CBN wheels.

Mark


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## Philbert (Dec 13, 2018)

Has anyone else noticed a difference using them on STIHL vs Oregon chains? Mine are the Diamond Brand CBN wheels, which I believe to be the same ones that Bailey's sells. 

The STIHL chains seem to overheat faster with the CBN wheels - I am assuming due to different alloy or hardness (not implying that they are 'better' chains because of that).

Philbert


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## hedge hog (Dec 13, 2018)

mountainlake said:


> With all the hype on CBN wheels on here I bought one , not impressed . Seems to burn cutters worse than my old gray wheel. Steve



What brand of grey one do you have ?
Stihl makes all the colors and the only one?


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## hedge hog (Dec 13, 2018)

Philbert said:


> Has anyone else noticed a difference using them on STIHL vs Oregon chains? Mine are the Diamond Brand CBN wheels, which I believe to be the same ones that Bailey's sells.
> 
> The STIHL chains seem to overheat faster with the CBN wheels - I am assuming due to different alloy or hardness (not implying that they are 'better' chains because of that).
> 
> Philbert



CBN of diamond wheel I don’t think is sold through Baileys


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## hedge hog (Dec 13, 2018)

hedge hog said:


> CBN of diamond wheel I don’t think is sold through Baileys
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I do notice that the CBN wheels cut slower than the Stihl wheels 
But a smoother finish on the edge 
Grey Stihl wheels are the best I have used but reshaping is a must all the time 


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## hedge hog (Dec 13, 2018)

hedge hog said:


> I do notice that the CBN wheels cut slower than the Stihl wheels
> But a smoother finish on the edge
> Grey Stihl wheels are the best I have used but reshaping is a must all the time
> 
> ...








CBN 



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## Philbert (Dec 13, 2018)

Looks much smoother than mine. Maybe I got coarser (or lower quality) wheels?

Philbert


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## hedge hog (Dec 13, 2018)

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## Philbert (Dec 13, 2018)

Philbert


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## hedge hog (Dec 14, 2018)

Philbert said:


> View attachment 690118
> 
> View attachment 690117
> 
> ...



Same brand and can’t remember if if they offer different grits 
I think they do but and I think there is a break in period 
Mine seem to better after a 100 + chains 


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## CR888 (Dec 14, 2018)

I too find Stihl and Carlton chain to heat up faster than Oregon. I use pink (vitrified) wheels. You can sharpen Oregon chain faster as it'll allow you to remove more stock before cooking the cutter. I thought with all these pretty near unused brand new fancy grinder pics with wheels costing more than my grinding setup including 10+ pink wheels from Zhengzhou province. Here...try reading the degrees on this vice!


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## Philbert (Dec 14, 2018)

CR888 said:


> Here...try reading the degrees on this vice!


How about this?



Philbert


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## lambs (Dec 14, 2018)

I've been reading this thread and wondered why some guys are experiencing burned cutters using CBN. I have to really crank down on mine to cause that issue. But I can see from some of the pics in the recent thread posts that the CBN wheels are from solid steel blanks. Mine is made from steel blank as well but has multiple cutouts near the edges with gaps machined through the edge of the wheel from each cutout hole, which breaks contact between the abrasive CBN finish and the cutter as the wheel turns. It also whips up quite a breeze due to the cutouts, which contributes more cooling. It is similar to a dinasaw cyclone in concept. This might explain the difference.

My wheel came from US Diamond. I think it is 80 grit with the 1FF1 profile. I never have needed to dress it which is a good thing because it did not come with a dressing stick.

I've used the CBN and hand filing as well for several years on 3/8 pitch and don't see a real difference between them in the field. You need a little experience with either one to get consistently good results. The difference in my experience is that a grinder with a CBN wheel will shape up a rocked chain in a hurry. I use a pink wheel for my .325 stuff, and dress it before each use to get the wheel profile correct. It's fine but slower and tends to burn the cutters if I'm too aggressive with it. I've never upgraded this one to CBN because I do not use .325 that much.

For touch up work I now mostly file a chain on a filing vise. But if the chain needs more than that, it sees a grinder first, then it's filed if I think it needs a finishing touch or to check and adjust depth gauges, which I always do with a file.


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## Stihl 041S (Dec 15, 2018)

lambs said:


> I've been reading this thread and wondered why some guys are experiencing burned cutters using CBN. I have to really crank down on mine to cause that issue. But I can see from some of the pics in the recent thread posts that the CBN wheels are from solid steel blanks. Mine is made from steel blank as well but has multiple cutouts near the edges with gaps machined through the edge of the wheel from each cutout hole, which breaks contact between the abrasive CBN finish and the cutter as the wheel turns. It also whips up quite a breeze due to the cutouts, which contributes more cooling. It is similar to a dinasaw cyclone in concept. This might explain the difference.
> 
> My wheel came from US Diamond. I think it is 80 grit with the 1FF1 profile. I never have needed to dress it which is a good thing because it did not come with a dressing stick.
> 
> ...


Been grinding for 40 years. 
ID,OD, form, and the only heat that surprised me is from not dressing the wheel. It should be dull. Shines is heat building steel 

PM me your address and I’ll send you a dressing stick.


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## super3 (Dec 15, 2018)

Any CBN wheel above an 80 grit will burn the cutter right quick.


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## CR888 (Dec 15, 2018)

I like being able to shape the profile of a pink wheel to get the chain cutter side profile the way I want it. Pro's/con's with any wheel type I suppose but its one thing I don't like about CBN style wheels....oh & the price.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 15, 2018)

Philbert said:


> View attachment 690118
> 
> View attachment 690117
> 
> ...


Those are what I have. Came off Amazon

Have sharpened a lot of chains and still working great. Way better than the pink grit wheels.


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## hedge hog (Dec 15, 2018)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> Those are what I have. Came off Amazon
> 
> Have sharpened a lot of chains and still working great. Way better than the pink grit wheels.



My dealer claims he gets 1,500 + chains out of a wheel
I am no where near that 
Best way to clean one is a sonic cleaner 



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## lambs (Dec 15, 2018)

hedge hog said:


> My dealer claims he gets 1,500 + chains out of a wheel
> I am no where near that
> Best way to clean one is a sonic cleaner
> 
> ...




I bet your dealer is right. I'll probably never wear mine out.


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