# damaged trees



## DCort (Jan 23, 2013)

Recently purchased a property with a ton of trees on it. I believe the damaged trees are post oak.

Any idea what's going on with these threes? Most are close to each other, but we are seeing similar conditions on the entire property. What can we do, what should we do (chop 'em all down, etc.?).


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 23, 2013)

I wouldn't cut a ton of them down, just start with the ones that threaten a structure or high use area and then go for the ones that show crown decline symptoms, reflecting the ones with the most decay. Oaks can live a long time with heart rot decay, and provide the benefits trees do in addition to firewood. By the looks of the rings in one pic, they are around 50 years old. That is young for oaks to have significant heart rot, so they may have been damaged at some point in the past, such as by getting basal wounds from logging or fire. There may also be a canker or borer that is introducing wounds that decay fungi enter. 

Post more pics with some Shigo-style dissections and we can check them out. Cut some logs the long way, for example, near any surface defect you see on the trunk.


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## DCort (Jan 23, 2013)

Will do, thanks for the input.


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## DCort (Jan 27, 2013)

Took a few shots today.



























Wish I'd taken a side shot as well. The hole in the tree is big enough to put your arm through.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 27, 2013)

Hmmm

What I am seeing is decay and insect galleries, either termites, ants, or a wood boring moth. I am leaning towards termites. That would mean the decay started before the termites; they are just going after the dead wood. 

Did you find any evidence of insects at all inside the stumps?

I did not see a basal scar, such as from fire or mechanical damage. I have not seen a pattern before where multiple trees have heart rot decay without some sort of damage. Certainly possible, though. Are these an upland species of oak that get flooded? That could kill some roots, and provide an entry point for a decay fungus. 

Any conks on the trees or mushrooms at the base? The last shot seems to show some signs of Armillaria root and butt rot: black zone lines between the decay and sapwood, and a fragment of rhizomorph "shoe string" in the loose decayed wood at the base. This fungus is sometimes called "Shoe String Fungus" because of these odd black or brown, flattened "strings" in the rotted wood and under loose bark. Armillaria has a honey colored or dull brown mushroom, usually in clumps at the base of the tree, with a ring on the stem, growing in clusters. 

Like this:

View attachment 276036
View attachment 276037
View attachment 276038


The first two shots are of the mushrooms. You can see the look of the decayed wood in the second shot, including some black zone lines. The third shot shows a bunch of "shoe strings"on a piece of oak firewood. These are all Oregon white oak.


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## Urban Forester (Jan 28, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Like this:
> 
> View attachment 276036
> View attachment 276037
> ...



TGHR did you take these photos? That's a great shot of Armillaria mycellium!! I'm teaching a class on 2/12 on tree decay, can I use that photo? Sorry...didn't mean to hijack the OP's thread :msp_biggrin:


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 28, 2013)

Urban Forester said:


> TGHR did you take these photos? That's a great shot of Armillaria mycellium!! I'm teaching a class on 2/12 on tree decay, can I use that photo? Sorry...didn't mean to hijack the OP's thread :msp_biggrin:



I'll email you a link.


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## Urban Forester (Jan 28, 2013)

Ya know what... I blew it. In my excitment over a "real-world" picture, I called rhizomorphs, mycellium, oops. Don't want to mis-ID stuff for people coming here to learn. However the important thing is that picture shows them in a more natural setting making it a GREAT tool for showing people WHY Armillaria Mellea is called shoe-string fungus and what to look for. Thanks for the pic, Dave.


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## treeseer (Jan 29, 2013)

Urban Forester said:


> Ya know what... I blew it. In my excitment over a "real-world" picture, I called rhizomorphs, mycellium, oops. .




Aren't rhizomoprphs just mycelial structures that are root-shaped, rhizo-morph?

don't be so hard on yourself; you weren't wrong were you?

o and for pics have you tried forestryimages @ bugwood?


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## derwoodii (Jan 31, 2013)

hmmm looking carefully that seems to be the work of a chain saw on them trees timber,,, unsure but could be stihl or husky by the cuts :msp_rolleyes: if you hear a loud 2stroke engine noise and blokes yelling timber you got your culprit. 



nuthin un normal about a few woodland trees showing signs of decay and munchy by insects.
Get your acreage assessed by forester/arborist you'll be advised best way to save habitat, your land $$ value and energy efforts in removing trees unnecessarily.


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## Urban Forester (Feb 1, 2013)

treeseer said:


> Aren't rhizomoprphs just mycelial structures that are root-shaped, rhizo-morph? / o and for pics have you tried forestryimages @ bugwood?



Technically yes, they are "from" each other. Structure forming from hypae. I guess I was looking at it from a instructor view-point that looking for the 2 distinct structures are diagnostic clues to its presence. keeping them separate (?) is a building block for understanding its growth. Yes I use forestry images ALOT. However the rhizomorph picture there is really (almost) unbelievable. It shows a human hand holding a "bundle" of rhizomorphs. While thats surely possible (the picture is the proof!) its not a good real world "expectation" of what you'll find in MOST cases. Dave's picture is more of what I'm used to seeing.


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## TreeGuyHR (Feb 2, 2013)

Urban Forester said:


> Technically yes, they are "from" each other. Structure forming from hypae. I guess I was looking at it from a instructor view-point that looking for the 2 distinct structures are diagnostic clues to its presence. keeping them separate (?) is a building block for understanding its growth. Yes I use forestry images ALOT. However the rhizomorph picture there is really (almost) unbelievable. It shows a human hand holding a "bundle" of rhizomorphs. While thats surely possible (the picture is the proof!) its not a good real world "expectation" of what you'll find in MOST cases. Dave's picture is more of what I'm used to seeing.



The shot of the piece of oak firewood was the inside of a completely hollow round -- and when i split it open, most of the rhizomorphs actually fell out -- so I could have held a handfull for the shot too! Usually what you see are just a few, either under or on the outside of bark near the root crown on a tree (live or dead) with significant decay.


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## DCort (Nov 20, 2013)

Recently had lots of rain and winds. Tons of large limbs everywhere, some trees literally broke in half, all rotten. One tree we cut down, for a driveway turnaround, had damage up top and down the middle that wasn't visible from the ground. 

A neighbor said there has been a drought for the past 6 years or so. Lots of the pines seem to be doing fine. Have seen some boring damage to a few, but not many,

Wondering if I should cut everything down or call in a professional to assess the situation and recommend action. What can I expect to pay for a visit?


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## Urban Forester (Nov 22, 2013)

Call in an expert FIRST to determine what can be saved. Why cut down, start over if you don't have to? I charge $75 an hour, can do a lot of assessing in an hour.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 10, 2013)

If they dont have targets, leavem be. Nutting but nature going on there. Not a great thing to have over your 10 million dollar green house, but out in the back 40............is guuud. Get someone over to tell ya which ones are structurally compromised, then just leave the rest. Pay for a Arborist consultation, don't get a bid. Get the wrong, dishonest guy out there and all your trees will be condemned as he tries to push revenue. Happens all the time, a dude who does not have any knowledge of wood decay will see that and instantly give a death sentence. Had a guy here condemn a big oak because it had a squirrel nesting in a hole. He told the HO that the whole tree was rotten. The hole was a sure sign that the tree was going to fall and that they needed to get rid of it right away. Good thing he got a second opinion. That was 3 years ago, pruning the tree this year.


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## DCort (Dec 19, 2013)

Sorry for the late reply, tied up with work then rain delays. Was hoping for better pics but Mr. Sunshine wasn't cooperating. I'll look for an aborist.


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