# working alone



## Jeffsaw (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi All,

Just wondering if any of you work alone if doing a tree service business as a second job on your days off.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 15, 2010)

Jeffsaw said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just wondering if any of you work alone if doing a tree service business as a second job on your days off.



You'll die someday as a result.


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## tree md (Sep 15, 2010)

I never work alone when I am climbing. I have done a few cleanup jobs alone and have worked using the client on the ropes (usually when working for a friend) but I never do a serious, involved job without my help.

Not to step on any toes but there is usually a reason someone finds themselves working alone...


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 15, 2010)

Once you leave the ground, you are not alone! Period. Are you insured?
Jeff


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## NeoTree (Sep 15, 2010)

tree md said:


> i never work alone when i am climbing. I have done a few cleanup jobs alone and have worked using the client on the ropes (usually when working for a friend) but i never do a serious, involved job without my help.
> 
> Not to step on any toes but there is usually a reason someone finds themselves working alone...



+1


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## newsawtooth (Sep 16, 2010)

This will rile the hive but... I work alone. I don't have any employees because there just isn't enough work to hire them. I refuse to bring in someone who I can't cover as far as workers comp and benefits. In my area there a many companies that have crews some legit some not. By in large the groundsmen can't climb safely or extricate someone from a tree so they have to wait for the fire department anyway. If there was a standard where by all crews had adequate climbers on the ground then it might make sense. The logic that just having someone there makes it less dangerous doesn't make sense. If that someone knows what to do then it makes sense. But as of now there is no real training for groundsmen involved in emergency situations outside of a few exceptional company's programs. Perhaps the Good Messieurs Lovstrom and PDQDL have such programs?

Alright, fire away....


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## lego1970 (Sep 16, 2010)

I do a lot of jobs by myself, but I don't do it full time and I normally only tackle the jobs that I feel pretty confident about. On top of that, I'm doing less and less tree work every year. There have been a couple times that I've chewed off more then I can eat. Sometimes the homeowner will help me rope some stuff out, but I only do that if the homeowner is the construction/farmer type person. There have been a few times where I'll rope stuff out on my own by attaching a doubled up rope to a strap/sling then locking it off. Then after I finish the cut, I can steer or swing the piece to where I need it to land. Then I retrieve the doubled up rope. 

The way I look at it, you have to be carefull wether your by yourself or working with a crew. I bet over 50% of the crews I've worked with, I'm the only climber on the jobsite and the one time I got messed up, there were two other climbers that were better skilled then I am. I do a lot of things by myself where I could get killed or severely injured if I mess up, so I think I'm pretty good at staying within my limits and trying to be prepared for whatever happens.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 16, 2010)

I work alone from time to time but it sucks. I don't climb alone but have done some bucket work alone and the people preaching otherwise would too if they had to.


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## tree md (Sep 16, 2010)

My guys are on my ass so much about work that I couldn't get rid of them if I tried. It's been a slow week. I went to a marketing strategy seminar today that I was invited to along with many other local business proprietors. Both of my guys have been on the phone with me tonight chewing my ass about printing off fliers for them to throw. One of them wanted me to email him the flier so he can print them off himself and throw them in the morning (I've got 2 jobs to bid in the morning).

I'm pretty lucky with the help I've got. I try to treat them well.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 16, 2010)

tree md said:


> My guys are on my ass so much about work that I couldn't get rid of them if I tried. It's been a slow week. I went to a marketing strategy seminar today that I was invited to along with many other local business proprietors. Both of my guys have been on the phone with me tonight chewing my ass about printing off fliers for them to throw. One of them wanted me to email him the flier so he can print them off himself and throw them in the morning (I've got 2 jobs to bid in the morning).
> 
> I'm pretty lucky with the help I've got. I try to treat them well.



Yes it sounds like you are I end up with the ones that just want a few bucks lol. Of course thats mostly okay when you dont have a full schedule.


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## Jeffsaw (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks very much for the information guys. I do have an experienced fellow who helps me with the occasional job so maybe I should factor him in to my estimates and see if two people are more cost efficient than one. And you're right, it'll be safer.


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 16, 2010)

I work alone.....yeeaahh, with nobody else. 

You know when I work alone, I prefer to be by myself.

Not alway true, I'll take jr, or the ol man. Sometimes my landlord comes along. Homeowners like to be there mostly.

So rarely am I truly alone, but sometimes. I don't mind it at all. I've worked the row alone a few times when groundpuppies don't show or quit. I'm only allowed to trim service drops though, but it has got me through some tough times.

I just threw my name in yellowbook, so it looks like I'll need extra help one of these days. Then I'll call the temp service again to send me some more magpies to cycle through and pick from. 

I had a good partner once....he even wanted to make it official, but too much money in his pocket would slow him down, or he had something else to do.

I'll grow up and bite the bullet when I'm good and ready. Good help is hard to find though. 

I've worked alone most of my life, farming and trucking. I do things accordingly, and that will keep you out of trouble 99% of the time.

I agree with the idea it is best to have someone with you, even when I do though, ultimately, I'm still alone.

And yet, imho, I'm never alone.


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 16, 2010)

ducaticorse said:


> You'll die someday as a result.



In case you haven't been notified....you are going to die someday regardless.

How many have been killed or injured as a result of working with someone else?

There's a question not many will ask, and less want the answer to.

Working alone is not the ultimate sin, and having someone there is not the ultimate solution.

When it comes down to it, mostly, it is just you, the tree, and your decisions. Maybe some powerlines thrown in for good measure, and what not. Otherwise, mostly you have spectators, maybe a good hand if and when you need one. Maybe.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 16, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> In case you haven't been notified....you are going to die someday regardless.
> 
> How many have been killed or injured as a result of working with someone else?
> 
> ...



Thanks termie I was going to say it but my carple tunnel is acting up lol


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## Tree Machine (Sep 16, 2010)

I won't condone it, but working alone is my normal day-to-day way. This is my 17th year in business

Over time I have hired help, from degenerates, to world class climbers, to board certified master arborists. One thing rings consistent across the board- Though I very much enjoy the company of others, I take a substantial pay cut almost every time.


Now, my system is truly set up to work solo, and I find a lot of peace and enjoyment, but this is me. As MD says 'there may be a reason for this' and I have mine. Basically, a deep fear of another man getting hurt on my jobsite. Granted, the ANSI safety manual says on page one that each individual is responsible for their own safety, but in reality, if someone gets hurt on my jobsite, it is my fault.

So, just those two things alone send my stress level up. Then there's all the other employee issues, which of course we could go on and on. But at the root of it all, when I'm in the tree, I usually just need men to stay out of the zone. If I yell 'CLEAR' between cuts and I watch casual, almost slow-motion action, and I'm waiting, every second is painful. When I have to say something, given the distance from crown to ground, you almost are forced to yell to be heard clearly. Yelling instructions, especially the obvious, stresses me and the tone comes through, and not in a warm and fuzzy way.

Also, I generally have to turn off my ear-protective music muffs to stay connected and in communication with the guy. Music during my work is one of the great benefits I personally enjoy, without which the work becomes more like, ...... work.

Freedom is another big one. I go out in the morning, sometimes at sunrise, sometimes at 10:00. Usually when I get done reading threads on arboristsite. I work until I'm done working, whenever that is. Even though I'm a full-time arborist, lifestyle plays into it a lot. 

My firewood guys make this reasonably possible on larger jobs, basically I don't have to handle heavy wood. Big limbs get cut up into 16"s until its small diameter brush, and they move the wood out and I deal with the remaining brush. I have two log arches, so I can move thousand pound limbs by myself with it, a 6" Bandit & 4WD truck that I can generally get right into the core of the mess. I hire help when there's a distance to be covered, or I'm near electrical. If I needed to be aerially rescued, even a most experienced ground guy can still only dial a phone. I would have to have a climber experienced in aerial rescue to rescue me aerially, and there is always someone around to dial 911. I work in a densely populated area, someone is always watching the treeguy work.

Since it is my business, my safety and my life, I see this as my personal decision. There are no laws requiring me to have employees to do tree care:greenchainsaw:, so I'll make those choices job-to-job.

I'm a production-oriented aerial technician, not a personnel manager, not a caterer, a counselor, a loan officer, nor an accommodator to all the wants and needs of another person. I hire for that person to accommodate MY needs. 

I am likely a much better employee than a boss. Boss is not my strong point. I could manage and direct others well, I feel, but only if it were not for my own company.


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## TimberJack_7 (Sep 16, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> In case you haven't been notified....you are going to die someday regardless.
> 
> How many have been killed or injured as a result of working with someone else?
> 
> ...



lol and true.

I would be surprised to find out if there is a single tree guy out there that hasn't worked by himself at least once. Maybe not so much for a company but for something like a sidejob. 

Either do it or don't but if things go south you can be in some big trouble.


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## bitzer (Sep 16, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> In case you haven't been notified....you are going to die someday regardless.
> 
> How many have been killed or injured as a result of working with someone else?
> 
> ...



Absolutly. Especially the spectators part. If I'm on the saw, its all up to me. If/when there is anyone else there, unless they are pulling a rope, they are not getting out of the way fast enough or far enough. And then its whoa! or Jesus! when a branch whips around at them or something breaks off and flies their way. Yeah, I said get clear and 3 steps back is not clear. At that point it can be liabilty. I've been working alone 90% of the time for 8 years now. That was not climbing work though. I am finding out its a different ball game when you're in the tree. Some jobs, other hands are a necessity. If I can do it alone though I will. In the end its up to me what happens.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 16, 2010)

TimberJack_7 said:


> I would be surprised to find out if there is a single tree guy out there that hasn't worked by himself at least once. Maybe not so much for a company but for something like a sidejob.



15 years, have never worked without a groundie, even on sidejobs. Honestly have never even thought about going alone. But it's probably because i don't trim, without a groundie i've got brush 15 feet up the stem and have gone up and down two or three times to fill the saw.


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## pdqdl (Sep 16, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> Perhaps the Good Messieurs Lovstrom and PDQDL have such programs?
> 
> Alright, fire away....



Not me. I think your points are well made and true, but you overlooked a couple of points.

1. When you work by yourself, there will not even be anyone to call the fire department. That has to count for something.

2. If you are working without a ground man, then you are working harder in the tree to overcome the shortage, and there are some things you simply cannot do from up in the tree. A good example would be pulling lowered logs away from obstructions on the ground. Untying a lowering line would be another example.

If you are compensating for these extra difficulties by declining some jobs, then you are missing out on income opportunities.

3. It is actually pretty easy to set the climber in a tree on a climb line that can be lowered from the ground. Should the climber become disabled, the groundies would likely be able to lower him if he was able to free himself from the second tie in point like his safety lanyard. 

4. If you are working extra hard by yourself, then you are likely to be more fatigued and make a mistake up in the tree.


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## tree md (Sep 16, 2010)

The only times I remember ever working alone was a couple of times when I was young and hungry. I have put a couple of chop and drop pines on the ground. I remember once or twice to tie a large job down when I felt they were shakey or knew they had someone coming to give another estimate.

Like PDQDL said, there would not even be anyone around to call for help should you become unconscious in the tree. I have even resorted to bringing my girlfriend to help me a few times but I always like to have someone there if nothing more than to send me up a drink of water.


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## TimberJack_7 (Sep 16, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> 15 years, have never worked without a groundie, even on sidejobs. Honestly have never even thought about going alone. But it's probably because i don't trim, without a groundie i've got brush 15 feet up the stem and have gone up and down two or three times to fill the saw.



I knew someone would surprise me......I guess it all depends on the person doing the side job. There have been times when the job would be unprofitable for me to hire someone and then the HO would not be able to be home.....what do you do then? I guess the ones that work alone just have to take that calculated risk. I don't like doing it and it is rare for me to do it these days, but sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do. Not saying right or wrong or one way better than the other just saying that is how it is for me sometimes (my little caveat so this doesn't turn into a bashing forum).


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## TimberJack_7 (Sep 16, 2010)

To add to PDQDL's reply here is something else. 

Another reason I don't work alone these days (aside from the small job here and there, extremely rare) is efficiency. Even if a guy is minimal in his tree knowledge, he can still drag and stack brush, butt end towards the chipper. That alone is worth it's weight in $7/hour gold. The groundie I have can gas and oil a chainsaw, run a saw on the ground without cutting himself, send things up to me with proper knots, can rope, etc, etc, ad nauseum. He is a good groundie and gets paid well. What that means is that it adds to the overall efficiency of the job. If I have bid the job for 6 hours but can crank it out in four, I have made $$$ and my groundie is part of that equation. When you are young and hungry you are likely going to take those harder jobs by yourself and gut it out, but over time you start figuring how to make things work better and get someone to help you out....just my own observation.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 16, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> . But as of now there is no real training for groundsmen involved in emergency situations outside of a few exceptional company's programs. Perhaps the Good Messieurs Lovstrom and PDQDL have such programs?
> 
> Alright, fire away....



I think we or I are comparing apples to oranges. We have a good safety meeting every wednesday and once a month we have a training day and its all day and they get their 8. We learn that almost everytime the accident or injury was either unforseen or called a freak accident. Well, now we learn, or try to learn, to expect the unexpected. I do the accident report and every time I have to answer 'yes' to the question, 'Could this accident have been prevented?', It is easy for management to critize and come down on you by hind-sight. Being in the field alot, I take that 20/20 hind-sight to the crews and it makes for great conversation and some come out with discussions on something and we all get involved. The crew needs to know you care. Don't know about you, ( hence the apple orange thing), but a bunch of guys working side by side every day makes good crews. that means they care about their freind and are trained knowing what to do. They can open up and feel free to say what they want.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 16, 2010)

I really only work alone if its drop and bomb and grapple out. If it has any roping my wife is the least that will be there and usually got a guy that helps but some days if the task is easy I will do it all. I almost always grind stumps alone but then I don't need no one.


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## bitzer (Sep 16, 2010)

TimberJack_7 said:


> To add to PDQDL's reply here is something else.
> 
> Another reason I don't work alone these days (aside from the small job here and there, extremely rare) is efficiency. Even if a guy is minimal in his tree knowledge, he can still drag and stack brush, butt end towards the chipper. That alone is worth it's weight in $7/hour gold. The groundie I have can gas and oil a chainsaw, run a saw on the ground without cutting himself, send things up to me with proper knots, can rope, etc, etc, ad nauseum. He is a good groundie and gets paid well. What that means is that it adds to the overall efficiency of the job. If I have bid the job for 6 hours but can crank it out in four, I have made $$$ and my groundie is part of that equation. When you are young and hungry you are likely going to take those harder jobs by yourself and gut it out, but over time you start figuring how to make things work better and get someone to help you out....just my own observation.



Well put. I know with this type of work I'm gonna need another pair of hands. I'm probably just stubborn and maybe a little greedy for now. Either that or just an a-hole. I don't know. I've been working alone for a long time, but this side of trees sure pays the bills a lot better right now. Time will tell. I have hired my little bros to drag branches on a few. They hate it, but love the cash at the end of the day. On one job I defenitely would not have gotten it done in a day without them. I'll have to learn.


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## tree md (Sep 16, 2010)

I don't like to work without my crew. We got it down to a science. We're all a little older so there is no high drama or anything like that... Well with those guys anyway, I can be a prima donna at times... 

Smooth sailing working with my guys. They are some wood chucking modiggers!!! 












My dad as well:


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## Tree Machine (Sep 16, 2010)

Over the course of time, I have worked with many ground guys, and of course thousands of days solo.  When working solo I constantly ask myself, "Would a ground guy be of benefit right now?" 

At the _end_ of every solo day I ask myself, "If I'd had a ground guy today, how much time would he have saved me?"

And at the end of every day working with a ground guy, I ask the same question, "How much actual time was saved by having him all day?"

Of course, these are speculative questions, but for fun I'll share.

ASSUMING he shows up on time, is sober and doesn't break anything during the day, has brought his lunch and fluids and doesn't need to leave early, sticking me with the end of the cleanup alone.... basically, he has a perfect day and works at a reasonable rate, I find that on an average day he will shave a couple hours off a day. One would think two men would be twice as fast as one man, but it just doesn't work that way. 

So, at $15 an hour (not including workman's comp., payroll takes, etc.) that 8 hour day nets him $120. From my side, he saved me two hours, but those two hours cost me $60 each and I'm still having to do a large amount of the cleanup. I find I would rather work the extra couple hours and I get paid $60 per hour for that time. $60 per hour becomes my real cost for the employee, not 15.

Of course, you can blow holes in that theory all day long. For you guys with major equipment, buckets, cranes, gargantuan chippers, garage full of saws this would certainly not apply. Guys doing mostly takedowns, municipal work, ROW and power line utility also would not apply.

Solo simply does not apply for most, I would think. For myself, I have occasional days where I really wish I had help. Usually I can judge upcoming jobs and arrange help in advance, but on the whole, ground guys want steady work, not be called in just when needed. Committing to having help means having them there, regardless of whether you need them or not, paying them whether they're being useful or not, taking on all the responsibilities, liabilities and risk whether you want it or not. 


I'm mulling all of this over therapeutically. This next week I am hiring 2 guys, they've already been interviewed and we're all good to go. Two because I want the cleanup done, and am hoping two guys can crank out the cleanups and free me of that completely. Two guys should be able to do the work I normally do myself. What I will do with them both while there is no cleanup to be done? Keep shelling out the money and see how it goes. 

The reason for solo guy hiring two groundies? An insane number of jobs stacked up, almost 80, 3 dozen estimates still to do and averaging ~ 5 new calls per day. This is literally a dream come true, and I am extremely grateful. I've been booking Winter work all Summer when possible, but it's just gotten to a point where managing the work load on my own is no longer sustainable. 

Solo does have its downside(s). I'm giving teamhood another try. I respect you good bosses out there. You're my inspiration right now.


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## newsawtooth (Sep 16, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think we or I are comparing apples to oranges. We have a good safety meeting every wednesday and once a month we have a training day and its all day and they get their 8. We learn that almost everytime the accident or injury was either unforseen or called a freak accident. Well, now we learn, or try to learn, to expect the unexpected. I do the accident report and every time I have to answer 'yes' to the question, 'Could this accident have been prevented?', It is easy for management to critize and come down on you by hind-sight. Being in the field alot, I take that 20/20 hind-sight to the crews and it makes for great conversation and some come out with discussions on something and we all get involved. The crew needs to know you care. Don't know about you, ( hence the apple orange thing), but a bunch of guys working side by side every day makes good crews. that means they care about their freind and are trained knowing what to do. They can open up and feel free to say what they want.
> Jeff



That is exactly what I am talking about. Crews with safety programs like yours are relatively rare. And I know you take it very seriously and work hard at it. Good safety programs are a lot of work, but they are good work. I don't have enough work to keep anyone full time so no one sticks around and honestly for their sake, I hope they don't. I hope they have more ambition. PDQDL your points are well taken and correct. I do turn down large removals.

I just can't rationalize hiring someone as a "sub-contract" groundie like many of our brethren just for my safety. When the time comes that I can hire someone I will, but the economics are not cooperating right now. I know I don't have to say it but a legit $10 an hour groundie actually costs considerably more.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 16, 2010)

Considerably.

My problem may just be that I'm paying too much.


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## Jeffsaw (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks again for all of your replies. Its great to get advice from professionals.


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## arbor pro (Sep 17, 2010)

I work alone often enough but prefer to have my groundman on site as much as possible. Since we're both part-time doing tree work about 20-hours a week, our schedules don't alwasy mesh. Every now and again, something pops up with his full-time work schedule or family life and I'm put in a position where I either work alone on a job or not at all.

I think the biggest issue with working alone is that it makes it difficult to react to the unexpected. One can be an incredibly safe worker and accidents can still happen. Short of divine intervention, all humans are flawed. There is no perfect tree worker thus, we are all susceptible to accidents whether they be caused by human error, equipment failure or unforseen circumstances (some might argue that these are all human error). 

My point is, the need for a second person on site is not so much to prevent accidents from happening but, rather, to help respond to accidents and problems should they unexpectedly occur. That's why I'll have a groundman on site even if it's just a cut and drop job with no cleanup. He might stand around the whole time but he's there if something comes up that I can't readily deal with.


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## JNGWC&Tree (Sep 17, 2010)

Working alone would also depend on your climbing technique. If you are climbing DRT with the tail on the ground I would prefer a groundie to keep my ropes clear in case I have to hit my hitch and take the leap of faith from the top. It just takes a good snag or a piece of unseen debris to stop the whole system. If a section begins a break out and you can ride the knot you are better off even if you don't make it to the ground. A fall from 20 feet is better than a fall from 90 (usually).

Also, there has been more than once where having a groundie has been instrumental in keeping misc. people out of the way. When we do commercial offices it doesn't matter how many warning signs and lengths of caution tape you put up people will ignore them and walk right through the drop zone.....to the point that they see ropes in the tree and can hear the saws running and still never even look up. Just last Friday I gave the "headache" call and got the groundie's "all clear". A few minutes later he gives me "underneath!" right as I'm about to make a cut on a large lead that we were going to drop below us. I could see my groundie was not in the drop zone, but I followed procedure and clipped my saw and gave the "all clear". Right at that moment I see a lady walk right where the spar was to land......she had been obscured to me by the canopy. As is typical in this setting, she was gabbing on her cell phone oblivious to the world. 

If you ever work a commercial job, don't do it alone because you can not be aware of or control other people on the ground like a good groundie can. That's my input


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## arbor pro (Sep 17, 2010)

JNGWC&Tree said:


> Working alone would also depend on your climbing technique. If you are climbing DRT with the tail on the ground I would prefer a groundie to keep my ropes clear in case I have to hit my hitch and take the leap of faith from the top. It just takes a good snag or a piece of unseen debris to stop the whole system. If a section begins a break out and you can ride the knot you are better off even if you don't make it to the ground. A fall from 20 feet is better than a fall from 90 (usually).
> 
> Also, there has been more than once where having a groundie has been instrumental in keeping misc. people out of the way. When we do commercial offices it doesn't matter how many warning signs and lengths of caution tape you put up people will ignore them and walk right through the drop zone.....to the point that they see ropes in the tree and can hear the saws running and still never even look up. Just last Friday I gave the "headache" call and got the groundie's "all clear". A few minutes later he gives me "underneath!" right as I'm about to make a cut on a large lead that we were going to drop below us. I could see my groundie was not in the drop zone, but I followed procedure and clipped my saw and gave the "all clear". Right at that moment I see a lady walk right where the spar was to land......she had been obscured to me by the canopy. As is typical in this setting, she was gabbing on her cell phone oblivious to the world.
> 
> If you ever work a commercial job, don't do it alone because you can not be aware of or control other people on the ground like a good groundie can. That's my input



very good points. :agree2:


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## treemandan (Sep 17, 2010)

Yeah, to work alone you really have to posses some wicked skills, a clear mind set, no fear, and be really tough... I do it all the time, its nothing, well for me at least.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 17, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Yeah, to work alone you really have to posses some wicked skills, a clear mind set, no fear, and be really tough... I do it all the time, its nothing, well for me at least.



Seems one could work alone, but I'm not sure how my saw will get fueled and my gear set neatly at the bottom of the tree.


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## treemandan (Sep 17, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> Seems one could work alone, but I'm not sure how my saw will get fueled and my gear set neatly at the bottom of the tree.



Man! Will somebody get these Prima-Donnas outta here!


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 17, 2010)

And who, I ask you WHO, is going to bag my ####### rope when it's tangled in a brush pile at the base of the tree with the ####### spar on top of it? I would do it but this cigarette isn't goin to smoke itself.


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## treemandan (Sep 17, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> And who, I ask you WHO, is going to bag my ####### rope when it's tangled in a brush pile at the base of the tree with the ####### spar on top of it? I would do it but this cigarette isn't goin to smoke itself.



Well, for one, if you go up there by yourself you aren't really gonna wanna drop a whole lot on your rope. But good question, I dunno, Who?


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## ropensaddle (Sep 17, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Well, for one, if you go up there by yourself you aren't really gonna wanna drop a whole lot on your rope. But good question, I dunno, Who?



Ain't that what the speed lines for with about twenty yellow loop runners and biners?


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## tree md (Sep 17, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> Seems one could work alone, but I'm not sure how my saw will get fueled and my gear set neatly at the bottom of the tree.



Word.

And who's gonna send up my thermos of coffee...


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 17, 2010)

Seriously though. If you're doing trees by yourself, you ain't doing hard trees. May as well put "Landscaper" on the side of your truck and break out your leafblower. Props to those that do trim jobs and don't have to rope #### out but I'm a Tree Service and I take whatever's thrown at me. Could be pride, could be stupidity but I get it done. When I bid dinky little prune jobs I'm generally way outta the range the HO was expecting because I'm insured for, equipped for, and generally geared toward that #### others can't do. My market may be different than others but if you want someone to stand there with some pruning poles and clip away from your house call someone else, it ain't worth my time.


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## tree md (Sep 17, 2010)

I'll do the prune jobs or whatever comes my way. Money is money. I actually enjoy doing prune work but I still bring some help along. I can't count the times I have gone out to do a little rinky dink job and had the neighbor ask me to do something bigger for them. If you've got your guys there and are ready to go it can turn a $500 day into a $2000 dollar day pretty quick.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 17, 2010)

tree md said:


> I'll do the prune jobs or whatever comes my way. Money is money. I actually enjoy doing prune work but I still bring some help along. I can't count the times I have gone out to do a little rinky dink job and had the neighbor ask me to do something bigger for them. If you've got your guys there and are ready to go it can turn a $500 day into a $2000 dollar day pretty quick.



I can't work that way, md. It's a mental thing. I need a night to ponder what I'm getting into the following day. No way I'll tag a $1500 removal on a day I was doing $500 trim. ####, I don't even have the right shoes on.


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## tree md (Sep 17, 2010)

To tell the truth, 99% of the stuff I do I could do blindfolded. I have just been doing it for so long. Very few trees come my way these days that are not pretty much elementary. Even the big ones are just doing the same things over and over again, just on a larger scale. Yes each tree poses it's own challenges but your still using the same play book on all of them.

When I worked for other services they would push us to get two done in a day a lot of the time and sometimes three jobs. No telling what all you would be doing. We did it all. I like to push like that now still. I like to line up two or even better three small ones and knock them out in one day. That is usually more lucrative than doing a large removal.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 17, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> Seriously though. If you're doing trees by yourself, you ain't doing hard trees. May as well put "Landscaper" on the side of your truck and break out your leafblower. Props to those that do trim jobs and don't have to rope #### out but I'm a Tree Service and I take whatever's thrown at me. Could be pride, could be stupidity but I get it done. When I bid dinky little prune jobs I'm generally way outta the range the HO was expecting because I'm insured for, equipped for, and generally geared toward that #### others can't do. My market may be different than others but if you want someone to stand there with some pruning poles and clip away from your house call someone else, it ain't worth my time.


Hell blakes I did this alone 


















Well the wife was there but really she only read a book don't know many landscapers that do these!


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## tree md (Sep 17, 2010)

What really gets interesting is when you've got three crews running and you not only have to climb and direct your crew but direct two others. As well as answer the phone, talk to clients, schedule, arrange for log trucks, cranes, make sales calls, give estimates, pay bills... LOL, it's not about just climbing when the business is there. It's more about effective management. That's why I was laughing at that joker on another thread about him saying it's not being professional to use your phone in the tree. He's obviously clueless. If you are the owner as well as the climber there's no way around it... That is if you want to effectively manage and get more than one tree done in a day.


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## himiler (Sep 17, 2010)

tree md said:


> I like to line up two or even better three small ones and knock them out in one day. That is usually more lucrative than doing a large removal.



My rule of thumb is the smaller the job, the greater the percentage of profit. There's always a loss associated with windshield time, roll out, and roll up, but there's more to be made in little stuff, and usually no competition. The bigger the job, the more likely you'll be bidding against others, and the more you'll try to be competitive. At the end of the day, I tend to measure success by how much I bring home and what I had to do to get it.
Steve W.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 17, 2010)

himiler said:


> My rule of thumb is the smaller the job, the greater the percentage of profit. There's always a loss associated with windshield time, roll out, and roll up, but there's more to be made in little stuff, and usually no competition. The bigger the job, the more likely you'll be bidding against others, and the more you'll try to be competitive. At the end of the day, I tend to measure success by how much I bring home and what I had to do to get it.
> Steve W.



You sure you don't have this backwards? The little jobs around here have every landscraper in town bidding on it, whereas the big jobs have alot fewer bids. In fact, we often pick up the real jobs as the only bidder.

What's your idea of a small versus big job?


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 18, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Hell blakes I did this alone
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember when you first showed that tree, rope. Nasty stuff. There's always exceptions with trees that just take a few well placed cuts to put on the ground but are big enough to intimidate even the most aggressive landscaper.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 18, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> I remember when you first showed that tree, rope. Nasty stuff. There's always exceptions with trees that just take a few well placed cuts to put on the ground but are big enough to intimidate even the most aggressive landscaper.



Ya know, I truly wish landscapers would be intimidated by pruning, as they ruin the market for tree work leaving no cake for the real tree men.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 18, 2010)

tree md said:


> To tell the truth, 99% of the stuff I do I could do blindfolded. I have just been doing it for so long. Very few trees come my way these days that are not pretty much elementary. Even the big ones are just doing the same things over and over again, just on a larger scale. Yes each tree poses it's own challenges but your still using the same play book on all of them.
> 
> When I worked for other services they would push us to get two done in a day a lot of the time and sometimes three jobs. No telling what all you would be doing. We did it all. I like to push like that now still. I like to line up two or even better three small ones and knock them out in one day. That is usually more lucrative than doing a large removal.




One of things I like the most about working for myself is the fact that I can plan my day out ahead of time. Some days I'll book 2 or 3 trim jobs, others I schedule removals and I always know when I wake up in the morning what I'm going to be doing that day. 

This also helps me organize my estimates and other bull####. If I have a particularly nasty takedown to do I won't schedule anything that day because I'm not certain when I'll finish. And when I do, I'm not going to want to ride around in the truck for 3 hours. Days where I only have a small trim job booked you can be quite certain I have several hours of legwork already scheduled to be done afterwards.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 18, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> You sure you don't have this backwards? The little jobs around here have every landscraper in town bidding on it, whereas the big jobs have alot fewer bids. In fact, we often pick up the real jobs as the only bidder.
> 
> What's your idea of a small versus big job?



It really depends what you're geared for, beowulf. With your guys setup it'd be damn near impossible to make money on trimwork. You just don't need all that equipment, and that equipment isn't making you money by sitting there idling. When I do trimwork my expenses are minimal. I make $1000 with one tank of gas in a 200T and 10 bucks in diesel. This is, of course, when I find the customers willing to pay my prices for trim work.


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## tree MDS (Sep 18, 2010)

himiler said:


> My rule of thumb is the smaller the job, the greater the percentage of profit. There's always a loss associated with windshield time, roll out, and roll up, but there's more to be made in little stuff, and usually no competition. The bigger the job, the more likely you'll be bidding against others, and the more you'll try to be competitive. At the end of the day, I tend to measure success by how much I bring home and what I had to do to get it.
> Steve W.



This is generally the way it works for me here. I think the increased profit comes from the simple fact that people are less likely to choke on the price when it comes to these smaller jobs. It's a lot easier for them to say go ahead to a $450 job, than a $2500 job.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 18, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> This is generally the way it works for me here. I think the increased profit comes from the simple fact that people are less likely to choke on the price when it comes to these smaller jobs. It's a lot easier for them to say go ahead to a $450 job, than a $2500 job.



What always amazes me is what you guy's get for a 700.00 tree here it is 2500 there
On the rare times a 2k bid is accepted here it looks like this!














but least we get good grub :hmm3grin2orange:


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## tree MDS (Sep 18, 2010)

I do feel for ya rope.. you should move, or hire some illegals and get the salted whip out. Go for volume! Lol. 

I just picked up another small job for $275 taking three dead leads off a maple with the bucket. Should take about an hour. Best part is I got to rob another customer from my ex neighbor. That and the fact that it's a big tree, that should be fully dead by the end of next year. $275 now, $1500- $1800 next time.


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## Treecutr (Sep 19, 2010)

I work alone when I can. For one, it's less money for me, two I'm not busy enough to have 1+ more guys working for me ( sometimes I am highs, and lows ) three, the guy I was using most often has gotten on my last nerve and he unknowingly worked his last day with me Saturday. He CONSTANTLY #####es about needing cash. Not necessarily an issue, other than annoying, but he will NOT sacrifice the things he doesn't need to save moeny, like pool league, bowling league for entire family, smoking, scratch tickets ( he bought $60 one day, and earned $70 with me??? , plus numerous other stupid crap he wastes money on ( none of which ever goes towards improving himself in the tree business, or towards learning more ) I guess I just vented a lttle, and some people just can't be helped. He'll go do pool or bowling on a Saturday instead of earning money with me, then he wonders why I did it myself, or got someone else. ( I have bills, trees brins money to me, simple choice, survive and work my tail off, or sit and complain and do nothing.I don't want to train another guy though either, so I try to do it all myself, plus no one has the stamina I do, I'll work 10-12 hours with no real breaks, just healthy snacks, water, gatorade, etc..., so it's tough to just dump my one knucklehead, but it's done. I think I went off subject.. LOL


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## tree md (Sep 19, 2010)

Treecutr said:


> I work alone when I can. For one, it's less money for me, two I'm not busy enough to have 1+ more guys working for me ( sometimes I am highs, and lows ) three, the guy I was using most often has gotten on my last nerve and he unknowingly worked his last day with me Saturday. He CONSTANTLY #####es about needing cash. Not necessarily an issue, other than annoying, but he will NOT sacrifice the things he doesn't need to save moeny, like pool league, bowling league for entire family, smoking, scratch tickets ( he bought $60 one day, and earned $70 with me??? , plus numerous other stupid crap he wastes money on ( none of which ever goes towards improving himself in the tree business, or towards learning more ) I guess I just vented a lttle, and some people just can't be helped. He'll go do pool or bowling on a Saturday instead of earning money with me, then he wonders why I did it myself, or got someone else. ( I have bills, trees brins money to me, simple choice, survive and work my tail off, or sit and complain and do nothing.I don't want to train another guy though either, so I try to do it all myself, plus no one has the stamina I do, I'll work 10-12 hours with no real breaks, just healthy snacks, water, gatorade, etc..., so it's tough to just dump my one knucklehead, but it's done. I think I went off subject.. LOL



Welcome to the world of groundies. It don't matter how much you pay them, they'll be broke tomorrow. Get used to it. You are going to have to deal with that in this business. It just goes with the territory.

I don't know about anyone else but I don't intend to spend all day or even an hour in the tree then come down and do ground work. I'll hire someone to do that.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm to damn lazy to work alone, if I did I'd never get finished.....


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## mic687 (Sep 20, 2010)

I will do some job's alone but it just depends on the job. Friday afternoon I dead wooded 2 70+ foot Red oaks which included 3 6" dia limbs 20+ feet long limbs. I used 3 ropes for rigging and lowered everything big, myself. This would have been eaiser with help but I got it done safely. I always wear ppe and choose these jobs carefully but it would be great to always have a second set of hand to help out.


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## fearofpavement (Sep 26, 2010)

One important distinction that I think needs to be made and it has been somewhat addressed, but there is a big difference between working alone and being alone while working. Working alone is personal choice and may or may not be efficient. Being alone is taking on additional risk and not a good idea in my book. I have had my wife or daughter sit in the truck and read or do computer work just so I would have someone there (remote area). I didn't need assistance, they were just there to summon help if necessary. Even a kid can perhaps fill this role by staying out of the way and playing with their Gameboy but keeping an eye on things. If you can't have anyone there to get help in this obviously risky endeavor then you don't really have all the necessary "equipment" for the job.


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## ozzy42 (Sep 26, 2010)

Hey guys. Just caught this thread tonight. Haven't been on the site much in the last month or two.
The only time I work alone is when the help is real late[more than 15 minutes] ,or no show at all.

I ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT let the pizz poor work ethics of others determine whether or not I go to work.

I will drop brush 12 feet high in every possible direction,followed by logs with stubs and maybe even some with branches still attached,then drop the spar on the whole pile.

If they choose to nurse their hangover on Monday,I will make them pay dearly Tuesday, for making me work alone.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Sep 26, 2010)

*pile*

I like you style. Just tell the knucklehead every Tuesday will be the same. Maybe Monday will become more important.


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## treemandan (Sep 26, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> Hey guys. Just caught this thread tonight. Haven't been on the site much in the last month or two.
> The only time I work alone is when the help is real late[more than 15 minutes] ,or no show at all.
> 
> I ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT let the pizz poor work ethics of others determine whether or not I go to work.
> ...



I shudder to think about it.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 26, 2010)

If you choose to work alone and then you get hurt or killed, your call, no sympathy here!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 26, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> If you choose to work alone and then you get hurt or killed, your call, no sympathy here!
> Jeff



Take away the desk and some other resources you might have and you might work alone yourself sometimes Jeffy! I don't know about others but I don't work alone cause I want to it is more because its necessary sometimes.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Take away the desk and some other resources you might have and you might work alone yourself sometimes Jeffy! I don't know about others but I don't work alone cause I want to it is more because its necessary sometimes.



Like I said Rope, no sympathy if you do. It is not personal, just the way it is for me.
Jeff 
You can leave out the desk reference, I climbed 28 years to get where I am, Seems to me you would make more money subbing out as a climber. That is what I did until kids came along and I decided to go to management. If the desk bothers you, oh well, Like I said 100 times before, I am in the office maybe 2 hours a week. I got thick skin so I will take your Desk references with a grain and still be glad I made the right move for my family.
Jeff
and, yeah, got the cert's.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 26, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Like I said Rope, no sympathy if you do. It is not personal, just the way it is for me.
> Jeff
> You can leave out the desk reference, I climbed 28 years to get where I am, Seems to me you would make more money subbing out as a climber. That is what I did until kids came along and I decided to go to management. If the desk bothers you, oh well, Like I said 100 times before, I am in the office maybe 2 hours a week. I got thick skin so I will take your Desk references with a grain and still be glad I made the right move for my family.
> Jeff
> and, yeah, got the cert's.



`Lol I bet if I worked around you one of us would go Its all good Jeffy, I climbed twenty eight to and still am but am glad for you friend, really it is good to see your making it in the corporation. I gave 13 years to one to only get crapped on, may you not be bro.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> `Lol I bet if I worked around you one of us would go Its all good Jeffy, I climbed twenty eight to and still am but am glad for you friend, really it is good to see your making it in the corporation. I gave 13 years to one to only get crapped on, may you not be bro.



I found the right Boss. You live in a tough area, I get it. I got alot of respect for you guys ( you all know who I mean ), I live in a tough area too, meaning, I needed to move up. I would never have done it if I did not meet Rick Shepard, the owner. We talked for almost 2 months before I took the job and still it was a pay cut compared to subbing out my climbing.
Jeff 
Now the responsibility is most of my stress.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 26, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I found the right Boss. You live in a tough area, I get it. I got alot of respect for you guys ( you all know who I mean ), I live in a tough area too, meaning, I needed to move up. I would never have done it if I did not meet Rick Shepard, the owner. We talked for almost 2 months before I took the job and still it was a pay cut compared to subbing out my climbing.
> Jeff
> Now the responsibility is most of my stress.



Jeff I really am glad for you, I tease about the desk but I know you have been there and too many in your position haven't. All my buds flip crap at each other, so please do take it as grain of salt.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Jeff I really am glad for you, I tease about the desk but I know you have been there and too many in your position haven't. All my buds flip crap at each other, so please do take it as grain of salt.



Can I have that salt and a little pepper on the venison you are probably eating. Yeah, I get jealous of ya'll.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 26, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Can I have that salt and a little pepper on the venison you are probably eating. Yeah, I get jealous of ya'll.
> Jeff



Hey Jeff they have vacations don't they? Take one and get you a deer!


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Hey Jeff they have vacations don't they? Take one and get you a deer!



I get 3 weeks a year. I usually just cash them in because it seems impossible for me to leave. I am planning on taking the last week of 2010 off. That is my plan. Got a friend in Alabama to see, 2 in OK, 1 in Texas , and some family in Boulder,Co. See how far i get I guess.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 26, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I get 3 weeks a year. I usually just cash them in because it seems impossible for me to leave. I am planning on taking the last week of 2010 off. That is my plan. Got a friend in Alabama to see, 2 in OK, 1 in Texas , and some family in Boulder,Co. See how far i get I guess.
> Jeff



Heck if ya come through the area pm me I will give ya some venison by then the freezer should be packed!


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## tree md (Sep 26, 2010)

Dang, you are coming here and I'm planning on traveling to Indy over the Holidays to see my brother and his family. If my plans fall through maybe we can hook up for a cup of joe if you're gonna be close to Tulsa. I know that's the family time of year though and understand if you will be doing the family thing.

If I was married with kids I would have probably had to go to work for somebody else during this little rough spell with the economy. It's just me and my guys though so I can weather the hard times pretty well


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## Tree Machine (Sep 27, 2010)

Monday I hired a new guy. Was supposed to be two, one didn't show. #1 did OK.

Tuesday I had a contract climb for another company, didn't use new guy.

Wednesday he worked out OK.

Thursday was 93 & hot, he called in 'sick'.

Friday he got all brush compiled from my work yesterday, I was in a tree, he went to start the chipper, but failed to turn the switch back once the motor had started, keeping the starter engaged, horrible grinding, on and on, I'm screaming, shaking the crown, FINALLY, 40 seconds later, each second an eternity, as the teeth are peeling off the starter spindle the grinding lessens and then he lets off the key. By now my hair is standing on end and I'm about to puke.

I hear the chipper now begin to rev up. It goes up a ways, and then comes down to an idle. I think, he's raking scrapple first, I hear the chipping commence, but the machine is still at an idle. It's chipping, but more because the knives are razor sharp. Is he going to throttle up?

"Hey.... hallooooooo...... Chipper guy,..... HEY!!!"
OMG, is it possible that three days into his working with me he all of a sudden forgot everything he's been shown and has demonstrated?

"HEEEEEEEEYYYYYYY!!!! Stop feeding THE CHIPPER!"

By now I can sense that there's not enough throw to expel the chips and they are depositing and filling the far end of the outfeed chute. I am screaming at the top of my lungs. A concerned passerby runs up as I'm screaming and shaking the canopy violently so as to get the worker's attention.

"Are you OK?" she yells up. "I'm trying to get him to shut down the chipper, which right about that time the infeed chute has filled completely, the spinning chipper disc slows as it begins to fill with material, and the oblivious chipper guy keeps on feeding right until the disc can no longer spin and a knife chops into the butt end of an incoming limb and it stops. It is over. 

But is it?

no, it is not.

No, this saga has just begun, but I will spare you with the lost afternoon income and getting a new starter installed on Saturday when I should have been attending Indiana's Tree Climbing Championship. Then after shelling out a bunch of money, I got to go back and finish the cleanup by myself.

So I ask you. Is this extreme, or is this typical? It *is* what it is, or I should say it was what it was, I'm only one day out from that train wreck, working alone, again, not really _wanting_ to, but I made the ultimate mistake. I hire someone because they needed work, not because I needed them so much. I'm done whining.


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## tree MDS (Sep 27, 2010)

Lol! Sounds a little extreme to me TM. 

On the rare occasion when you find a good one, the difference is night and day. 

I had a new kid for a couple days a while back (unfortunately he had to go back to school) that simply amazed me. I figured I was wasting my time going through the chipper operating protocol with him as usual. To my amazement, he did everything flawlessly.. from engaging the clutch, to disengaging it as soon as the chipper hit low idle, to letting the turbo cool for the perfect amount of time. Of course this was a farm boy that has been running equipment his whole life.. but still, nice to see a glimmer of hope in one of these kids for a change. 

Anyway, good luck with that.


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## 2chops (Sep 27, 2010)

I used to work for a local tree company doing ROW clearance. We used to have to hire 15 groundguys just to get 2 maybe 3 that would work out. The problem seems to be that these days people want to be employed but they don't want to work. Big difference. 

Now days I have a rec. tree climbing academy as my main business and only do the ocasional tree job in order to fill in the income a little. I work alone mostly. But I only take jobs that I know I can do alone. Sometimes I'll employ my son-in-law to handle ropeing duties or brush dragging. Anything beyond my scope of energy, desire or that really needs a crew of guys, I refer the client to my former employer. Since I left on good terms with them, I don't mind throwing some jobs their way.

Yes I know that the risk is greater going it alone. But I weigh the risk/benefit factor well before committing to the job. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## himiler (Sep 27, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> On the rare occasion when you find a good one, the difference is night and day. :



I do a lot with Boy Scouts and have to agree with finding the right young man for the job. More often than not, it's what the person came from and his attitude about life that makes the difference. I tell my scouts that being successful in life is a journey started with a right attitude. It will build upon itself, and unfortunately so will a bad attitude. 
You don't have time nor the money to wipe noses on little boys who shoulda grown up but didn't. Go find a group like a local Boy Scout troop, talk to the scoutmaster, and give someone deserving a chance to be productive.
Trust me, you won't regret it.
Steve W.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 27, 2010)

One of my early groundguys was an Eagle scout. I hired him solely on that. This was back in the days of loading brush onto a trailer. He was great.

I haven't had all bad experiences with employees, just this thing the day before yesterday, but when the most unlikely thing happens and takes my business out of the loop for two days, I'm really sorta gun-shy on hiring again.


I need to make the effectiveness of my effective equipment even more effective.

Solo climbing operations is much about strategy. You are 'dependent' on no one. You may have an audience of onlookers, but you are still very much solo, every one of you, except for key moments, but for a solo cat you don't have help for even the key moments. The crux situations you need to see coming, play through in your mind, rig appropriately and cut. Lots of slings is one advantage. Not forgetting anything is another. Powerful saw, good size gas tank and razor sharp chain another plus. Different length lowering lines to match the height situation. Cammed pulleys. Eyed ends. Lots of nuances that make everything faster. Expert shotline management, huge difference in time savings, no need to have assistance there.


But, it all depends on the job, doesn't it? I probably do 19 out of 20 jobs solo, but I must admit, my firewood guys are of big assistance on some of the bigger of those, they move out all the big wood. The solo part is *in* the tree climbing, rigging and cutting. And then solo on the ground, brush chipping/powerblow, get a check.

Solo artist, in my case, means being a professional firewood cutter (sometimes aerial, sometimes on the ground), and a stick picker upper.
For these reasons (big wood walks away and I _like_ cutting logs into firewood) I have a small, efficient chipper to do brush. I have log arches to move both small and large logs, in length, and effective, wheeled carts. I'm really kinda geared for solo, more now so than in the past, but even when I was shlepping brush onto a trailer 15 years ago I still did my share of the jobs solo.

Helpers come and helpers go, but the show must go on. 

Where I go to work, _and when_, is a freedom I truly enjoy. With an employee I'm forced into being 'more responsible' and learn to accommodate upcoming jobs to make use of labor; then teaching, explaining, instructing, directing, answering and hearing when all,

I want to do .....

is climb and make beautiful some trees and 

listen to the music, 

and have a peaceful and safe afternoon.


And as long as your afternoon is safe, that is what fundamentally matters most, yes?

I am safe with an employee
But I feel I am just as safe without one. You think more thoroughly because there's no one staring up at you waiting, no need to feel compelled to be fast up top to keep him moving down below. No distractions.
You just do your stuff, and go down and clean it up. I like that life.


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## ozzy42 (Sep 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Monday I hired a new guy. Was supposed to be two, one didn't show. #1 did OK.
> 
> Tuesday I had a contract climb for another company, didn't use new guy.
> 
> ...





Man,I hate to hear of anybody having a day like that. Hope tomorrow is a better day for ya.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Monday I hired a new guy. Was supposed to be two, one didn't show. #1 did OK.
> 
> Tuesday I had a contract climb for another company, didn't use new guy.
> 
> ...



First time i've ever lost respect for you, tree machine. New groundies are dumb. They are like babies that need to be taught. Not all of them have the same brain capacity. So you are just throwing this guy out. You saw he was having trouble right from the start, get out of the tree and go over the stuff again. 
I wonder if you look at groundies differently than me-for you they are just an evil needed until things slow down again and you can go back to solo love. For me every new groundie is someone i may be spending years working with and trusting my life to, so i go over and over and over the things he needs to know until he gets it, because in the future his knowledge will make my life easier.
To sum up, i'm blaming you for your groundie's failure in this instance. 


Heck, i almost had the same thing happen my first day on the job. I was even raised around heavy equipment, but was in a hurry to make the climber happy and went to start chipping without throttling up. Fortunately the climber was standing there with a piece of brush and gave me a stupid smile. Only time i made that mistake.


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## pdqdl (Sep 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Monday I hired a new guy...
> 
> ... I got to go back and finish the cleanup by myself.
> 
> So I ask you. Is this extreme, or is this typical?



Yes. Your experience is completely typical, at least from my perspective. 

He had only two days of work on the job, but how much of that time was spent in dragging brush, and how much was spent being closely supervised and trained?

I have had many of the same experiences, and I can only offer this advice: _These guys were out of work when you hired them._ You need to find out for certain what their flaws are that kept them from having a better job than working for you before they crossed your path.

Until you can confirm that they are really skilled and reliable in all the areas that you need, you should not trust them to do a job unsupervised. Once you have gotten them trained in each new skill, you need to continue to monitor until they show that they can really deliver the goods.

I'm not offering any criticism here, since I continue to make the same mistake daily. I also continue to pay for it every day.

BTW: get a better chipper. Hydraulic feed motors with automatic controls prevent plugging up and over-feeding. While they are not completely fool-proof, I'll never go back to a chuck-'n-duck. Especially if you are working alone, you need better equipment to make better money.


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## bayard (Sep 27, 2010)

*solo*

tree machine,that was well written and well thought out.that is why there is a different way to do anything in life. k


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 27, 2010)

New guys are closely supervised and after 3 months, evaluated.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 27, 2010)

New guys can truly #### some #### up quick no question but it sounds a bit dangerous in your case to even that guy near power tools and the chipper hell no ..Sounds like he needs to demoted back to the drive thru ..


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## Tree Machine (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm sorry I spilled that on you guys.

Yes it was my fault. Anything that gets broken or lost is my fault. If anyone gets hurt on my site, it is my fault. It doesn't matter what it is, the boss is responsible pretty much no matter what, isn't that true?

My chipper is not a chuck and duck. It's got hydraulic feed motors and automatic controls, it does not even have a clutch to engage. It is one of the easiest, user-friendly chippers I have ever used, but it does not throttle up by itself. Key on, throttle up, really that's all that is needed to successfully feed brush.


I did not fire the guy. The line was, "Oh, by the way, I have a new job that starts Monday." I wished him good luck.

I still need a helper, but honestly, I'm intimidated.


There are two reasons I hire; make more money or have more free time. I'll be happy with just one of those two, but if the expense and the liability and the risk and hassle are outweighing the benefits, I have a hard time convincing myself I need an employee. Yet, I know I do.


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## tree md (Sep 27, 2010)

I never turned a new guy loose on the chipper. It has been so long since I have not had an experienced ground guy but when I got a new chipper a few years back I would start it and run it at operating RPMs and not let even my most trusted groundy touch it. I was the only one to operate it for about two weeks and then I relinquished a little bit.

Here's the deal, A climber can just about always climb to the points he needs to, cut small and pitch stuff where it needs to go. I find that to be slow work. I like to go big and use my guys. Much more efficient that way. Plus, I care about my guys welfare and want to keep them working. I sat back today and watched my main groundy run the saw and just smiled to myself.

Really it comes down to quarterbacking the whole deal and sometimes you have to take one for the team... Meaning that sometimes you have to give till it hurts. I had to sub climb two jobs last month for little money. My groundy had some hefty bills to pay. I could go on for days about grooming a groundy but the best advice I could give is when you find a good one treat him right.

Anyway, I have a lot of respect for a lot of you guys around here who are working on your own. I would never be presumptuous enough to try and tell you how to run your operation. A lot of you have obviously been resourceful enough to have made it on your own and be successful for years. To tell the truth I wouldn't mind working on my own sometimes... Some days I can't wait to get in the top of the tree to get some peace and quiet...


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## ropensaddle (Sep 27, 2010)

tree md said:


> I never turned a new guy loose on the chipper. It has been so long since I have not had an experienced ground guy but when I got a new chipper a few years back I would start it and run it at operating RPMs and not let even my most trusted groundy touch it. I was the only one to operate it for about two weeks and then I relinquished a little bit.
> 
> Here's the deal, A climber can just about always climb to the points he needs to, cut small and pitch stuff where it needs to go. I find that to be slow work. I like to go big and use my guys. Much more efficient that way. Plus, I care about my guys welfare and want to keep them working. I sat back today and watched my main groundy run the saw and just smiled to myself.
> 
> ...




B I N go and bingo was his na mo. It is all the years of hearing constant


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## Tree Machine (Sep 28, 2010)

It's certainly a tradeoff.

I get the quarterbacking thing, and that's a great analogy.


Here's another, I saw this on one of those inspirational posters, it goes.

Do not tell an employee _how_ to do something. Tell them _what_ to do, and be amazed at their resourcefulness.

I spent the first thirty hours of our week instructing on the 'hows', how to stack brush and how to run the chipper. That is all I have for a guy. We were ona technical one over a house and deck, I was rigging and lowering, all he does is unclip a caribiner. No saw. No nothing except stack and drag brush, and chip it. I thought thirty hours of paid training was enough, but based on results, I've got a lot to learn.

However, I did tell him what to do, and I have to say I was amazed, not at the resourcefulness, but truly amazed on some level.

I feel like maybe I have forgotten how to work with someone, or maybe it's hard enough for me to think for myself, I choke when I have to think for two.

There's lots of great help, I just happen to pick up whoever comes across the path. Is it because I assume everybody as temporary? I mean, who wants to make a career out of stacking and chipping brush? I don't have a clue about these things.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 28, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> I'm sorry I spilled that on you guys.
> 
> Yes it was my fault. Anything that gets broken or lost is my fault. If anyone gets hurt on my site, it is my fault. It doesn't matter what it is, the boss is responsible pretty much no matter what, isn't that true?
> 
> ...



No offense but the biggest risk is your safety , the hell with the equipment that can be replaced , you should never climb alone , there are so many different scenarios that could cost you your health and maybe your life .. I am proof of that , I had to be brought down five years ago after opening my forearm so bad that I passed out in the tree , if my guys didn't see what mistake I made so quickly I would have certainly bled out and died .. I lost control of that situation so quickly that everything I thought I knew meant nothing , if anything hire someone to keep an eye on you ..


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## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> No offense but the biggest risk is your safety , the hell with the equipment that can be replaced , you should never climb alone , there are so many different scenarios that could cost you your health and maybe your life .. I am proof of that , I had to be brought down five years ago after opening my forearm so bad that I passed out in the tree , if my guys didn't see what mistake I made so quickly I would have certainly bled out and died .. I lost control of that situation so quickly that everything I thought I knew meant nothing , if anything hire someone to keep an eye on you ..



That sounds horrible.. thanks for sharing and good point though.

Glad you're ok.


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## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> It's certainly a tradeoff.
> 
> I get the quarterbacking thing, and that's a great analogy.
> 
> ...



Sometimes I wonder if I've just been trapped in the field too long.. I have to stop and think, is it really fair to expect these guys to be on the same page as me with everything, when it's actually only a relatively short while that they've been at it. 

When I was learning early on, it was on a bigger crew, and we all had the chance to screw some stuff up.. but at least I learned from it. I'm guessing you are like me in this respect, and don't really give anyone the opportunity to screw much up.. would rather do it yourself. This is good and bad..


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 28, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> That sounds horrible.. thanks for sharing and good point though.
> 
> Glad you're ok.



And when and if I hire new guys I always ask if they are willing to learn to climb and not so much for cutting but in the rare instance that there is a climber that gets hurt and needs assistance , I put very little into the FD rescuing myself or one of my guys they are often untrained and or just plain slow ..There are 2 types of climbers ones that have been hurt and ones that will get hurt one day .


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 28, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Sometimes I wonder if I've just been trapped in the field too long.. I have to stop and think, is it really fair to expect these guys to be on the same page as me with everything, when it's actually only a relatively short while that they've been at it.
> 
> When I was learning early on, it was on a bigger crew, and we all had the chance to screw some stuff up.. but at least I learned from it. I'm guessing you are like me in this respect, and don't really give anyone the opportunity to screw much up.. would rather do it yourself. This is good and bad..



I was treated poorly by pretty all my bosses until I turned 25 but I always wanted to do better after being yelled at and rarely took criticism to heart , now you scream and they pout and quit , my little punk of a brother has quit on me at least 5 times ...


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

Cal-OSHA requires a climber trained in aerial rescue to be on-site when-ever a climber goes above 14 feet. No-one climbs alone, period!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cal-OSHA requires a climber trained in aerial rescue to be on-site when-ever a climber goes above 14 feet. No-one climbs alone, period!
> Jeff



Well there is one at my site:monkey:


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## beowulf343 (Sep 28, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> There's lots of great help, I just happen to pick up whoever comes across the path. Is it because I assume everybody as temporary? I mean, who wants to make a career out of stacking and chipping brush? I don't have a clue about these things.



You are right, no one is going to make a career out of it at minimum wage. This may fly in the face of conventional thinking, but my boss pays a living wage and is able to keep career groundies. His favorite hires are guys in their late twenties to early thirties, married with a couple kids-these guys are often ready to get a full time job to buy a house or support the kids and the wife is there to help get them out the door in the mornings if need be. 
We've got a little over sixty groundpeople right now, half of which have been with the company as a groundie for more than ten years. Heck, my two guys have both been there over twenty years. If you think alone climbing is good, try doing it with almost fifty years of experience under you-we've been together almost a decade now and i swear sometimes those guys are psychic. And oddly enough, the boss is willing to shell out extra for a good groundie because it's extra incentive for his climbers and bucket guys to stay with the outfit-i know i'd rather work with my two guys than go elsewhere and get who know what.
Anyway, yes there are people who are willing to make a career as a groundie-guys make a living sucking #### and pulling brush has got to be better than that. But, not to sound arrogant, we make huge bucks so the boss can afford the extra. You are probably going to get stuck with the rejects.


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## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I was treated poorly by pretty all my bosses until I turned 25 but I always wanted to do better after being yelled at and rarely took criticism to heart , now you scream and they pout and quit , my little punk of a brother has quit on me at least 5 times ...



It's no small feat to survive the entry level, and actually become proficient at this work.. looking back, it wasn't easy (youth was on my side thankfully) and it certainly wasn't all my own doing. Many friends/good teachers along the way - and still learning, of course! 

... but yeah, the ability to take a good cussing certainly helped.. thing was, my dumb ass worked/tried so hard, they usually felt bad lacing into me too hard.


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## pdqdl (Sep 28, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> ...
> 
> My chipper is not a chuck and duck. It's got hydraulic feed motors and automatic controls, it does not even have a clutch to engage. It is one of the easiest, user-friendly chippers I have ever used, but it does not throttle up by itself. Key on, throttle up, really that's all that is needed to successfully feed brush.



That's too bad your newbie screwed it up. I hope you only ate the starter gear, and not the whole flywheel ring gear. That would really suck.

I guess I would have presumed it was safe from plugging up, too. My Bandit 200 will not engage the feed rollers until the engine is up to speed. I thought that all hydraulic feed chippers worked that way; apparently not, eh?


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cal-OSHA requires a climber trained in aerial rescue to be on-site when-ever a climber goes above 14 feet. No-one climbs alone, period!
> Jeff



Got a question for you and OSHA.

Who's there to save the savior?


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## pdqdl (Sep 28, 2010)

Divine intervention, presumably!


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Got a question for you and OSHA.
> 
> Who's there to save the savior?



Not going to try to red in to that, but, what do you mean,savior?
Jeff


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Not going to try to red in to that, but, what do you mean,savior?
> Jeff



The Rescue climber. Who is there to save him?

Not that I'm against rescue climbing or climbers, that isn't the point though.


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## pdqdl (Sep 28, 2010)

I think that the question translated would be "If the rescue climber is busy rescuing the first climber, who is on the ground ready to rescue the rescue climber?" 


But you knew that, didn't you?


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I think that the question translated would be "If the rescue climber is busy rescuing the first climber, who is on the ground ready to rescue the rescue climber?"
> 
> 
> But you knew that, didn't you?



A trained crew should all be somewhat qualified to saddle up and help , mine are and we are only four strong , so the question is how many is too many and my answer is all of them should be able to assist ..


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I think that the question translated would be "If the rescue climber is busy rescuing the first climber, who is on the ground ready to rescue the rescue climber?"
> 
> 
> But you knew that, didn't you?



Do we have to assume the rescue guy needs to be rescued? 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> A trained crew should all be somewhat qualified to saddle up and help , mine are and we are only four strong , so the question is how many is too many and my answer is all of them should be able to assist ..



Good post, Our guy's are trained in aerial rescue. All 12 of them. And we spend the money and man-hours to keep it that way. So, what is with the Savior and need to rescue the rescuer? Jealous?
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I think that the question translated would be "If the rescue climber is busy rescuing the first climber, who is on the ground ready to rescue the rescue climber?"
> 
> 
> But you knew that, didn't you?



Lol I may not want rescued the trauma from having a mans lips to mine would make me go insane. It is my right to make a living and it wont be tread upon.


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## pdqdl (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't know about that Rope...

I could live with being resuscitated... I'm sure remembering the event that caused the need would be worse than the solution to the problem.

I have seen some women that I think kissing might cause worst nightmares than any guy could.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I don't know about that Rope...
> 
> I could live with being resuscitated... I'm sure remembering the event that caused the need would be worse than the solution to the problem.
> 
> I have seen some women that I think kissing might cause worst nightmares than any guy could.



Uhhhh yeah but my groundy has been with them chicks


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

CPR- Now it is just the chest, no mouth, Really, check it out.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> CPR- Now it is just the chest, no mouth, Really, check it out.
> Jeff



They change the dern crap more than I change cheap light bulbs. I have been through those since the 80's and it seems it changed each time.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> They change the dern crap more than I change cheap light bulbs. I have been through those since the 80's and it seems it changed each time.



Cha cha cha change's,
Jeff, yup they do!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cha cha cha change's,
> Jeff, yup they do!
> Jeff



So chest no breaths sound like certain death with obstructed airway I will stick to my last training.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> So chest no breaths sound like certain death with obstructed airway I will stick to my last training.



Just telling ya Rope, That is the deal, check it out. I guess the blood moves the oxygen, but really, that is the new deal. Check it out all you want, I am right, 
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Just telling ya Rope, That is the deal, check it out. I guess the blood moves the oxygen, but really, that is the new deal. Check it out all you want, I am right,
> Jeff



This year maybe but if they have pulse with obstructed airway it could be detrimental, as I said my grandkids ,wife etc will get my last first aid training which I believe superior to just compressions in many events. So I guess they don't even check pulse now eh?


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

Check, call,care

Look listen,feel


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> This year maybe but if they have pulse with obstructed airway it could be detrimental, as I said my grandkids ,wife etc will get my last first aid training which I believe superior to just compressions in many events. So I guess they don't even check pulse now eh?



I know you are in Arkansas, but all of ya'll know that you still check the air-way and throat and pulse. Just saying, no need for ' mouth to mouth.'
Jeff
It is like after 7:30 at nite. I am going to sleep.
Jeff
See ya in the AM!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Sep 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I know you are in Arkansas, but all of ya'll know that you still check the air-way and throat and pulse. Just saying, no need for ' mouth to mouth.'
> Jeff
> It is like after 7:30 at nite. I am going to sleep.
> Jeff
> ...



Nighty night


Jeffy I aced every test on first aid not bad fer anarky eh?


Btw you still did not understand. If they have a pulse but are not breathing giving compressions could cause health concerns for no reason.


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 29, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Good post, Our guy's are trained in aerial rescue. All 12 of them. And we spend the money and man-hours to keep it that way. So, what is with the Savior and need to rescue the rescuer? Jealous?
> Jeff



All 12...that's a perfect amount of disciples for the OHSA religion. Surely that's an accident right? You didn't assemble exactly 12 on purpose, did you? Better keep on close eye on Judas. 

Nevertheless, not everyone has 12 grade A certified OSHA regulated monkeys on hand. That is great and all, I'm almost sure that you could perform a rescue with 12 of these men handy. But could you image the horror of the 12th man when he realizes that he has reached 14 foot......ALONE. Could he do it? Could he still accomplish the rescue.....ALONE?

The point that you are missing on purpose is a simple one. Howbeit, one that neither you, nor the 12, nor OSHA, nor any other self important acronym can afford to recognize. It is the elephant in the room, as they say.

Once the rescue climber passes 14 foot he is in violation of the standard that requires him in the first place. It's a catch 22. One that I'm almost sure 12 men can handle, but like I said, not everyone has 12.

For the typical crew, one extra rescue climber is all they got at best, and all that is "required." Do I think he should go when needed, yes, naturally, when the situation is safe. _*However, he now has to realize that there is no one to save him and work accordingly.*_ 

It's an emergency, so now he has got the OHSA blessing to work alone...er..I mean..climb above 14 foot without a rescue climber on the ground. We can debate about whether or not it is safer to rescue climb than to work the tree, but something can still go wrong. Now what? Where is the acronymic flip chart answer for that? Call the fire department to rescue the two victims you now have?

Overall, the same mindset and practices one must have to work alone, should be employed whether you're working alone or not. It is especially important for the rescue climber, he now has two lives on the line, with the clock ticking, and often times, no one to bail him out of a jam.

I think it is good to have a second climber, but I find that a requirement of such by OSHA to be in conflict with itself, in principle, and as potentially dangerous, if not more, as the problem it is trying to “solve.” It's a good recommendation in general, but to make it law, and to preach it like a gospel solution, is just self important self serving nonsense. Typical.

I don't climb alone much, but I climb as though I am. And I don't require someone come fetch me either. So if you do, its on you, and I might be grateful later, but it's of your generosity, not my requirement.


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## himiler (Sep 29, 2010)

*Dancin Yeah!*

Think I've figured out this groundie issue. 
1. Start with one of those cheap can of compressed air horns for a boat to get his attention when you're up in a tree. Beats yelling and shaking the branches to get him to look up. 
2. If that doesn't work, then try one of those shock collars that dog trainers use for their hunting dogs. Start with a short zap for getting his attention, medium duration zaps for correcting first time mistakes, and save the really long zaps for what you told him about several times before and he's in need of a reminder. 
If you look down and find him jumpin around like a monkey, might be you put the zapper in your back pocket and you're sittin on it. 
Just tryin to be helpful.
Steve W.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 30, 2010)

himiler said:


> Think I've figured out this groundie issue.
> 1. Start with one of those cheap can of compressed air horns for a boat to get his attention when you're up in a tree. Beats yelling and shaking the branches to get him to look up.
> 2. If that doesn't work, then try one of those shock collars that dog trainers use for their hunting dogs. Start with a short zap for getting his attention, medium duration zaps for correcting first time mistakes, and save the really long zaps for what you told him about several times before and he's in need of a reminder.
> If you look down and find him jumpin around like a monkey, might be you put the zapper in your back pocket and you're sittin on it.
> ...



Instead of saying you are an Idiot, I will say that is dumb advice. There is a joke room in ' Off the Topic', go there.
Jeff


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## Tree Machine (Sep 30, 2010)

The shock collar would be good. I suppose, in all fairness the climber should get one, too. A deterrent to us doing stupid things.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 30, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> The shock collar would be good. I suppose, in all fairness the climber should get one, too. A deterrent to us doing stupid things.



I think all our politicians should have shock collars set up with most severe setting based on public support.


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## ozzy42 (Sep 30, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I think all our politicians should have shock collars set up with most severe setting based on public support.



Amen brother.
We have enough members here to supply every member of both houses with one.

I call dibs on pelousies.
Bet I could straighten out some of those tourtise wrinkles on her in a week,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,,maybe longer but I'll do the best I can.


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## himiler (Sep 30, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Instead of saying you are an Idiot, I will say that is dumb advice. There is a joke room in ' Off the Topic', go there.
> Jeff



Guess my point was lost in the "humor". I'll try to make it a bit more obvious. 
Seems like the problem was not only in the new groundie's lack of experience, but also his awareness. Anything to get his attention would be better than yelling at the top of your lungs and shaking a tree while your equipment is being destroyed. You know, a whistle, air horn, even a cell phone on the vibrate setting in his pocket. Whatever it takes that's effective in getting him to look up at you.
Jeff, ease up and look a bit before you pass judgement. Yea, I was trying to make it funny, but idiot?
Steve W.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 30, 2010)

;


himiler said:


> Jeff, ease up and look a bit before you pass judgement. Yea, I was trying to make it funny, but idiot?
> Steve W.



Sorry, did not know you were joking.
Jeff


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## himiler (Sep 30, 2010)

That's cool Jeff. Apologizing in public makes you twice the man in my eyes. Now if I could just figure out how to rep ya.
Steve W.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 30, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> All 12...that's a perfect amount of disciples for the OHSA religion. Surely that's an accident right? You didn't assemble exactly 12 on purpose, did you? Better keep on close eye on Judas.
> 
> Nevertheless, not everyone has 12 grade A certified OSHA regulated monkeys on hand. That is great and all, I'm almost sure that you could perform a rescue with 12 of these men handy. But could you image the horror of the 12th man when he realizes that he has reached 14 foot......ALONE. Could he do it? Could he still accomplish the rescue.....ALONE?
> 
> ...



Thats hardly jeffs point I believe , it is more a benchmark set forth for the protection of the employee ,and I would venture to say that there would not be one person citing the rescuer with any fine but instead recognize the selfless attempt at helping another both with his training and quick response , and frankly your last sentence really is so far off base that if I helped you out of a situation and you said that to me I would certainly probably punch you in the mouth ,really the nerve


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for the nice words Steve W., I am not looking for a rep, unless they have an 'a s s h o l e rep'!
Hey 101!, You got it. I am not gonna play the 'what if game'. Of 12 guys, 8 are climbers. 4 are groundies. Trained in ' aerial rescue' means just that. The ' Catch 22' thru me off a little until you posted.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Sep 30, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I think all our politicians should have shock collars set up with most severe setting based on public support.



Not necessary. Just make it hit them with a serious jolt every time they vote yes for wasteful legislation. 

Tazer hits for 5 minutes should be enough to straighten all the problems out.


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 30, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Thats hardly jeffs point I believe , it is more a benchmark set forth for the protection of the employee ,and I would venture to say that there would not be one person citing the rescuer with any fine but instead recognize the selfless attempt at helping another both with his training and quick response , and frankly your last sentence really is so far off base that if I helped you out of a situation and you said that to me I would certainly probably punch you in the mouth ,really the nerve



I get it. Jeff's point is osha's point. And I do admit to having a little fun with Jeff’s 12. It was a perfect number. Nothing against Jeff, but it was funny to me. First he comes down with the osha req, and then he's like, we've got 12 certified. I mean that's good and all, really, but seriously, it was funny how it came across especially in light of the subject matter in general. It's like: *OSHA HAS SPOKEN!* This must be the part where we sing hymns and put our hard earned money in the plate.

I think you're missing my point. Allow me an attempt to clarify. I'm not talking about citing anyone. I'm all for rescue climbers, their very existence, and manifold "blessings," makes my general point about working alone, and what it takes to do so safely, _for me_. That's the topic of this thread....or was anyway.lol. Sometimes still is.

I'm simply making light of a osha req, and those that preach it as salvation, how it contradicts itself, and how that truly promotes, and if successful, demonstrates, the same principles it seeks to protect us from....working alone, or climbing alone, specifically in this case.

To put it in bare bones English, the minute the rescue climber is needed, he _*is climbing alone*_, or without at least a climber to cover his butt. Unless there are 12 waiting in line, naturally. Some might need 12. 

Nevertheless, all poking fun aside, it's a high calling to head up after a down man, but that in itself doesn't grant immunity. There is still a risk, if not an amplified one, no pun intended. And then there is more on the line than just yourself. It is a very selfless act, but that doesn't always make it a smart one, nor guarantee success.

That being said, and in the current situations I might find myself climbing, (again, no pun intended) I don't require anyone to come up after me. If you do, it is on you, you are on your own....literally. Keep that at about the top of your mind, and work accordingly, or don't bother coming. I would not want another man to risk everything to save me from my screw-up, or otherwise bad luck.

However, if you are going to do it, do it from your heart, out of generosity.....NOT because osha, neither because their deacons, told you to. Not out of a sense of duty, nor heroism. Do it for you, do it for me, but be certain you can do it safely.

If I wake up alive, I will thank you...and I'll mean it. I might cuss you for it, and you might pop me in the mouth, but I'll still thank you. I might even thank you for popping me in the mouth. I'm a pretty good sport and take fairly well to pop knots, though it is certainly better to give, than to receive.

If I wake up dead, and you're there, don't start in about it or I'll pop you in the mouth. And then I'll still give you a good cussing. 

However, if I wake up dead, and you're not there….

Fair enough, now I've only myself to cuss and don't beat yourself up over no one to pop in the mouth. Get over it, have a beer or two, pay your respects, remember me well, and whatever you do, keep climbing. And don't carry me around like a backpack, you did your best, and a least you tried and survived. Don't sit around moping, watching cliffhanger reruns, and feeling sorry for yourself. Better luck next time.


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## Bigus Termitius (Sep 30, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Thanks for the nice words Steve W., I am not looking for a rep, unless they have an 'a s s h o l e rep'!
> Hey 101!, You got it. I am not gonna play the 'what if game'. Of 12 guys, 8 are climbers. 4 are groundies. Trained in ' aerial rescue' means just that. The ' Catch 22' thru me off a little until you posted.
> Jeff



That's right...don't think, don't ponder the what ifs, osha will take care of all that for you, just preach The Rule Book(echos for effect). I'll play devil's advocate, expose osha's shortsights, and we'll all be content. Ah ah..don't bother getting up, I can see you are comfortable. oke:

C'mon man. I gotta give you a razz for being an OSHAite.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 1, 2010)

I really try to adhere to OSHA regs. In hiring a noobie, I'll pull out the manual, read from page one that worker is responsible for his/her own safety. That's a good start. 

Communication while in a noisy environment blows it for me. I can have the safety talk all I want but honestly, most of the time instruction is needed in-the-moment, if nothing more than to remind someone of something you instructed them on earlier, like (chipper running) "Ummm, you're on the street, there's no cones or Tree Work Ahead sign out"
Tough to do while in the tree and a machine running.
"Excuse me, I asked that you be aware of every passing car, acknowledge with eye contact and direct them past with arm motions."
or even, "Pardon me, but you are feeding the chipper with the engine at idle, throttle it up full, please."


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## himiler (Oct 1, 2010)

*Plenty of hindsight, no real experience*



Tree Machine said:


> Communication while in a noisy environment blows it for me.



First I'm no climber. Got too many injuries for that, retired military, etc. .
Second, I'm no better than any groundie out there.
So here goes. 
A whistle or small air horn as mentioned earlier would give you the ability to have some basic communication. One blast means look at me. Two blasts means heads up, get outta the way. Three blasts is safety warning, shut it down, etc. You get the picture. 
Also I have those small pocket motorola walkie talkies that are pretty useful. They have an alert feature that usually can be heard unless it's just full production noisy. Between the two, I'm usually able to get across what I want with what I do, and stay safe. It's usually my family or close friends working with me, nothing big time. Total money invested might be $100 for you.
Tree, I'm thinking I would be still mad and stewing if what happened to you happened to me, but I do have to agree with new guys just not having a clue. They're in a new environment, they're thinking (or not) of all the new stuff plus how to walk and chew gum at the same time, etc.. 
Steve W.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 1, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> I really try to adhere to OSHA regs. In hiring a noobie, I'll pull out the manual, read from page one that worker is responsible for his/her own safety. That's a good start.
> 
> Communication while in a noisy environment blows it for me. I can have the safety talk all I want but honestly, most of the time instruction is needed in-the-moment, if nothing more than to remind someone of something you instructed them on earlier, like (chipper running) "Ummm, you're on the street, there's no cones or Tree Work Ahead sign out"
> Tough to do while in the tree and a machine running.
> ...


Or you teach with repitition no matter what the job is , you park set the cones and discuss whats gonna be happening , I have none of those problems and if I have to tell them how to be safe than theres a problem .. Granted it has taken ten years to find a crew that works well together but believe the men are there you just need to weed through some ###holes to fine them ..


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## beastmaster (Oct 4, 2010)

I just finished 3 days of contract work trimming some tall Canary island pines. The first two days I arrived early so I could cone off the trees. Then I sat for an hour waiting for the crew to show up. Yesterday I arrived even earlier, coned off the trees, saddled up and started trimming these 90ft pines all by my lonesome, with this thread still fresh in my mind.
I was using a hand saw, loppers, and pole pruner, no chainsaw, and had one tree almost all done when the crew arrived. 
Only one of them spoke English, and most of them were wearing i-pods so communication was next to impossible. Later in the day as foot traffic increased a groundy would yell something in some Mayan dialect if someone was walking under a tree, or if a bird was singing or what-ever. I think I really felt more comfortable and and stress free when I was alone. I felt more by my self with that crew there then when I was climbing alone.
Say what you want but those three days paid the mortgage this month Beastmaster


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## treedoc2 (Jun 1, 2019)

Hello all, hoping to find some clarity on a "two climber requirement" from osha. I went on their website to search for the subject without much luck, so hoping to get some input here. I've Heard that it is against osha policy to climb without another climber present but have never seen it in writing for myself. Does anyone know if this true and / or where I can see for myself? Also, is it illegal to climb a tree to set a pull rope solo?, Can I work in a tree with a handsaw solo? Or is it simply against the law to be in a tree solo period. 
I have recently been hired as a groundskeeper and am their "tree guy". Problem for me is that I've climbed trees for 20 years and it seems so simple and is tempting to climb up a tree. I was told I would violate osha policy if I climbed without another climber present.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 2, 2019)

My OSHA and ANSI standards are at the office, but basically you need someone that can perform an aerial rescue, at least call 911.
Jeff


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## oldboy (Jun 23, 2019)

Yep, I often work alone. Not up to osha standards I'm sure, but safety is always #1 priority, I like the concept of mindfulness. I'm interested in going through the necessary hoops to get my Isa cert.


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## Huskybill (Jun 24, 2019)

I don’t climb but I have someone with me during felling. Then i buck up and load the truck alone. After a few close calls when felling alone I don’t drop trees alone anymore. I had a widow maker come from 35 yards away and hit me like a boomerang size. As the tree fell it hit the top of another tree and I became the target. I couldn’t believe what happened. Anything can happen when we’re alone.

My signature,,, is what I’m about to do safe? It’s onetime I don’t mind talking to myself.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jun 25, 2019)

*Working alone is not unsafe. *Working with people can be unsafe. I have felled and have done all aspects of logging by my self for more than 60 years. So if tomorrow you read that I have passed well it was a good run. I have had some accidents along the way, but not the type where I cut my leg or arm. I have slipped on a log or two where as the wind was knocked out of me. For me some times having a second person around is dangerous because you have to watch out for some one else too. I have also had a crew of up to 6 people working for me too. Safety is a mindset I believe. I have never owned any protective gear until as of late. My first tree job I did alone because could not find any one to help. My first felling job was with out any experience or clue other than this tree needs to come down. I had watched a few people cut a few trees and was thinking how hard could this be. My first tree did not fall exactly like I thought it should. Then I thought I will do better. With that being said I now am concerned more about kick back and what could I do to place a little protection around my arms and shoulders. I am more concerned about wearing a good protective forestry hat with a strap more. With every cut if you are not thinking what could go wrong and how would a person react to that crisis. People alone have accidents as well as people working together have accidents. One important difference is when you are really alone and you start bleeding you will more likely bleed to death before some notices you are missing. I have been taking an emergency radio with me that could direct a helicopter to my rescue. Then there are times when I go out of my way to get help, but mostly to have some one to drink coffee with. For those who are prone to make mistakes they definitely should not be alone. For others that can find an assistant then that is how they should operate. Thanks


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## Huskybill (Jun 25, 2019)

I was felling a maple tree that was surrounded inside a circle of other tall trees. She came off the stump and stayed straight up. I was like popeye knocking 4’ sections to the right and left, she still came straight down. I couldn’t see straight up because of the surrounding trees. All of a sudden the big vee from the top showed up. As it fell towards me I shut the saw off and took a step back. I never prayed so fast in my life. The vee fell and it centered me perfectly in it. She hit the ground even, didn’t twist at all I got lucky. I have a big 50cal ammo box full of first aid stuff in the truck.
For the ones who do this for a living and never been seriously hurt we been lucky.
Godbless.


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