# May I please lean upon and learn from, you experienced pros?



## KiwiBro (Feb 24, 2012)

A pisstaking punk from New Zealand is probably not your ideal student, but it strikes me there's generations worth of experience floating around in this logging section that doesn't come around too often in one's lifetime. Any opportunity to learn from you lot is worth more than enough to me to risk being flamed or ridiculed for my inexperience and general stupidity.

If OK with you guys and gals, may I please, from time to time, post a few pics and videos of various scenarios I may be faced with and ask of you how best to tackle them or whether I should leave them alone for more experienced fellers to deal with (kinda rubs against my have-a-go grain a little but I need to accept my limits sometimes)? 

If there's one thing I have managed to learn thus far it's that the more I learn in the woods without killing myself, the greater the realisation how little I really know and also how lucky I've been to not have killed myself yet. There's some 'big' (for me anyway) wood on my radar and it's not the sort I really want to be riding my luck with.

May I please submit a few scenarios for your ridicule, general entertainment, etc? If so, I'll go get some footage and post back in here over the coming weeks.

Regards,

KiwiBro.
P.S. A year ago my day job involved staring at multiple monitors and tapping at keyboards 8-12 hrs per day. It's not like I grew up packing gear for my experienced tree-felling old man in the bush, so even the smallest things you guys and gals might take for granted are probably things I've not learned yet. Also, what constitutes 'common'-sense to you is probably not all that common to me.


----------



## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

:hmm3grin2orange:Hmmmm. This could be interesting. Let us think about it and we'll let you know.

Education is expensive. Do we get to raid your refrigerator, drink your beer, drive your car, beat you and call you vile names while insulting your intelligence and questioning your sanity?

I don't know about the rest of the guys but I guess maybe I could help out. A little. Occasionally. Do I have to be right all the time? Or would just part of the time suffice?

What do you think guys ( and one gal) should we do it?


----------



## Kapriel (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm thinking beer drinking has got to be involved in here somewhere ! 

Just to oil up the gears.


----------



## slowp (Feb 24, 2012)

Send us airline or boat tickets and we'll come in person. Do it soon so I can be in Summer. We are in the blah season.


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 24, 2012)

"Summer"? We haven't had one this year. 
"Beer"? That could be arranged. 
"...insulting [my] intelligence and questioning [my] sanity."? I sincerely hope so.


----------



## Rounder (Feb 24, 2012)

In the process of filling up with beer, and already full of bad advice..........


----------



## Kapriel (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah about the beer, You might want to put in a keg system.

I like Sam Adams, but will drink, whatever the other guys are having.

PS I have it on good authority that they are lushes....:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Oldtimer (Feb 24, 2012)

Kapriel said:


> Yeah about the beer, You might want to put in a keg system.
> 
> I like Sam Adams!



I prefer Sam Adams blackberry witbier, but the Winter Lager is good too!
The Boston Lager, IPA, and Cherry wheat I can not drink...

As for questions, that's what this is all aboot.

And I would like to go to Kiwiland, but only in the "non-earthquake" season.


----------



## Joe46 (Feb 24, 2012)

We'll need an ample supply of rocks to throw also. Never got much out Wellington when I was there, so some touring must be involved also.


----------



## slowp (Feb 24, 2012)

Must we bring our own popcorn and peanut butter? :msp_ohmy:

A glass of Irish Death gives me a good buz up at the ski hill.


----------



## Kapriel (Feb 24, 2012)

*I don't know about popcorn and peanut butter.*

I think Kiwi said something about a pig roast ! 

You can;t beat a good pig roast !
And a bon fire later so we can tell our stories ! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Kapriel (Feb 24, 2012)

And sometimes I get lonely... So you might want to provide some .....


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 24, 2012)

Kapriel said:


> You can;t beat a good pig roast ! And sometimes I get lonely... So you might want to provide some .....bush pigs?



Sure, why not. But only at the successful conclusion of training. Whilst I concede dead men make lousy prosecution witnesses, bush pigs might provide enough incentive to keep me alive until you've had your fill. A carrot, if you like, dangling in front of an ass or two.


----------



## tramp bushler (Feb 24, 2012)

Sure .as long as u don't argue. 
My wife does that moren I need .
Can women vote there ??
Hope not .


----------



## tramp bushler (Feb 24, 2012)

Hey , where is Old Zeland ??


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 24, 2012)

*Where are my manners.*



Gologit said:


> I don't know about the rest of the guys but I guess maybe I could help out. A little. Occasionally. Do I have to be right all the time? Or would just part of the time suffice?



Thank you. I figure if you've managed to stay alive long enough to even read my post you are probably right more often than wrong.


----------



## madhatte (Feb 24, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I prefer Sam Adams blackberry witbier, but the Winter Lager is good too!



Sam Adams made a truly incredible Pilsener a few years ago that I haven't seen since. I do wish they'd make it again.


----------



## paccity (Feb 25, 2012)

i'll start off with some advice. don't do this.


----------



## Samlock (Feb 25, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Hey , where is Old Zeland ??



Zealand is a province of the Netherlands.


----------



## tramp bushler (Feb 25, 2012)

Ahh see . 
Ya learn something new every day . 
Thanks ..


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 25, 2012)

Samlock said:


> Zealand is a province of the Netherlands.


Notwithstanding the drugs back in high school messing with my memory, I seem to recall it's actually Zeeland but captain Cook (some Dutch explorer a few centuries ago) screwed up the spelling during translation and it kinda 'stuck' as Zealand. But don't quote me on that.


----------



## RandyMac (Feb 25, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Your humbleness and extreme politeness Kiwi kinda borders on the on the knees begging for a teaching moment. Like the ####ens " more porridge please sir ? " :msp_biggrin:
> 
> Remember one thing, some of these self-appointed "pros" know only their small part of the universe, limited ways of working the trees, and damn well they need to do the "ridicule and entertainment" dance for any techniques not in their playbook. Ridicule, name-calling, demeaning unfortunately.
> 
> ...



What a peterhead.
What you think is the truth is so far removed from reality, you couldn't be more wrong. The only flamer here is you. The way you carry on, I'm thinking you have a raging case of Old Growth envy.


----------



## Samlock (Feb 25, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Notwithstanding the drugs back in high school messing with my memory, I seem to recall it's actually Zeeland but captain Cook (some Dutch explorer a few centuries ago) screwed up the spelling during translation and it kinda 'stuck' as Zealand. But don't quote me on that.



My blurry memory claims that Dutch Zeeland is Zealand in English by standard.

But hey, it's your set of islands, stoned or not.


----------



## Gologit (Feb 25, 2012)

*51-50?*



RandyMac said:


> What a peterhead.
> What you think is the truth is so far removed from reality, you couldn't be more wrong. The only flamer here is you. The way you carry on, I'm thinking you have a raging case of Old Growth envy.



That, or maybe something a little more serious. He hints around about a service connected disability and brags about being supported by the taxpayers. But he cuts firewood and lists ice/rock climbing as one of his interests. That would lead me to believe that his disability is mental and not physical. We certainly see examples of that every time he posts. He seems to get more hysterical, repetitive, and harder to understand as time goes on. I figure he'll probably go into a total melt-down before too much longer.

Nobody takes him seriously anyway. Kinda like elevator music...annoying and useless but basically harmless.


----------



## slowp (Feb 25, 2012)

I have gotten over my displeasure at hearing "New Zealand". It used to cause sadness.

I was scheduled to go to Portland and have a job interview with Crown Fletcher, I think. They needed folks who could do logging systems plans. The recruiter stressed the similarities of the climate with W. Warshington. The salary was way less though. 

The day before the interview, I was sick with a high fever and the flu. I couldn't drive. It was a long way from the top center of Warshington to Portland. It hurt to hear New Zealand spoken. 

Oh well. They probably had scary snakes or bugs....are there such things there?


----------



## Billy_Bob (Feb 25, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> ...I may be faced with and ask of you how best to tackle them or whether I should leave them alone for more experienced fellers to deal with...



THAT (leave it) is the best lesson to learn, something difficult to teach people, and something you already know or have learned on your own...

So you are WAY ahead of many people!

But that's all there is to it so far as living a long life. You see something which could be dangerous and not sure how to safely deal with it, then get someone else more experienced to do it or ask what to do.

You are a wise person!


----------



## madhatte (Feb 25, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Remember one thing, some of these self-appointed "pros" know only their small part of the universe, limited ways of working the trees, and damn well they need to do the "ridicule and entertainment" dance for any techniques not in their playbook. Ridicule, name-calling, demeaning unfortunately.



Yeah, that's EXACTLY how we roll in these parts. There's NO back-and-forth at all where we swap techniques and pictures. We don't have any east-coasters taking up west-coast habits or vice versa, and NOBODY new is ever allowed in the Cool Kids Club. Sure am glad we got you here to keep us honest. 

Oh, and using the word "flame" in the context of an internet messageboard ISN'T totally 1997. That there is fresh, hip lingo. 

Gentlepersons, we have a new High Priest.


----------



## tramp bushler (Feb 25, 2012)

Log butcher ; your handle desplays your ignorance . 

I'm a West Coast professional timver faller . And I've never even seen a Doug Fir tree . 
I went from Maine to Southeast Alaska . Grew up logging un Maine . 
West coast timber is bigger and more valuable. It has more variables and generally alot more dangerous . .
And I can say that cause I've done both . That being said professional fallers on the East coast arn't dismissed . . There are just Very Few of them . We have some real good eastern fallers on here


----------



## slowp (Feb 25, 2012)

Ok, now back to the firewood forum please, and stay there.


----------



## tramp bushler (Feb 25, 2012)

Hey Kiwi . Don't pay no mind to the butcher . He's from Maine . . Probably not the sharpest tooth on the chain . . Not that Maineacks are stoooopid . But they argue too much .


----------



## tramp bushler (Feb 25, 2012)

So whats your story ? What kind of timber is involved ? Are you going to be in the office , loggin , building road , turnin wrenches or fallin timber ?? .


----------



## Rounder (Feb 25, 2012)

To the OP.....in all seriousness, feel free to ask away. No one is born a timber faller. The only reason I am, is because I kept my mouth shut when I should, and asked questions when I had the oppurtunity. And I listened......a lot.

-And, I'm still trying to learn everyday, as well as every time I get to cut with someone that I haven't before.

-Sam


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 29, 2012)

slowp said:


> They probably had scary snakes or bugs....are there such things there?


No snakes. Only a few harmful spiders. Aussie got most of the nasties and NZ was spared, thankfully.
Notwithstanding pockets of decent trees, the rest and of most scale is mainly plantation Pinus Radiata.


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> So whats your story ? What kind of timber is involved ? Are you going to be in the office , loggin , building road , turnin wrenches or fallin timber ?? .


Predominantly clearing blocks for farmers. And my role is all the above - I'm a glutton for punishment. The thing I'm noticing is Farmers are keen to do it themselves up to a certain size and beyond that they want someone else to do it, being the wise foxes most Kiwi farmers are. In the last week I've started building a road (terribly late, hope the weather holds out) to a landing on one block, dropped a few approx 3' DBH gums on another, costed out another block and am trying to figure out if it's worth getting in another contractor for that block as it's got some reasonable wood in it and could probably justify a digger with grapple to slew up the hill.

There's a growing list of 4'+ trees I'm seeing and some of them scare the heck out of me, to be honest. At least on farms, there aren't many assets in the fall zones, except perhaps me (although it's questionable whether I'm an asset or liability some days). But some of the big trees are near buildings etc, and I need to use the farmers blocks to hone my skills before hitting the others trees.

So, while I may be tied up on one block for a few months before I can get to the blocks with bigger trees, I am hoping to run a few trees passed the fallers here and see how they'd tackle them. I'll try out some ideas on smaller, easy trees before I get in there.

thanks all.


----------



## slowp (Mar 1, 2012)

It is kind of like the first part of the Wizard of Oz. A pleasant time is being had until the Wicked Witch makes an appearance. 

Who has the water? 

Now leave Logbutcher, please leave. (Cue in flying monkeys and music)


----------



## Gologit (Mar 1, 2012)

slowp said:


> It is kind of like the first part of the Wizard of Oz. A pleasant time is being had until the Wicked Witch makes an appearance.
> 
> Who has the water?
> 
> Now leave Logbutcher, please leave. (Cue in flying monkeys and music)



He must be off of his meds. Again.

Hey, Logbutcher....we don't like you. Nobody likes you. You're not welcome here. We'd be happy if you left and stayed gone. Is that clear enough?


----------



## Samlock (Mar 1, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> There's a growing list of 4'+ trees I'm seeing and some of them scare the heck out of me, to be honest. At least on farms, there aren't many assets in the fall zones, except perhaps me (although it's questionable whether I'm an asset or liability some days). But some of the big trees are near buildings etc, and I need to use the farmers blocks to hone my skills before hitting the others trees.



Calibrating your hand and eye is indeed a good idea before dropping the sized residential.

The thing with the residential jobs is that you shouldn't worry much about it. You'll have gear worth 100k's under your thumb, yet, paradoxically, you shouldn't really think about it a lot. It's all up to you and your decisions, and if you will be shaking like a leaf, it won't really help.

You'll need something soothing. I'm not talking about a quarter of brown. The most important tool is, as I see it, a fool proof insurance. Also check the clausal which can only be deciphered with an electronic microscope and a virus filter. At least it works with me. As long as people are safe, everything that might get busted is just heaps of lumber, glass, metal and stone to me. Helps me to keep the focus on the task, not on the chips.

You probably know all about this, Kiwi. That's just all I have to say on Zen and falling trees.

Sam


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 1, 2012)

Well lb . If you want to be helpful you could actually post up some pics of N.Z. timber .tell particulars of gum trees . Is it brittle ,tough . Heavy . Hows it limbed . How tall is it . Stooled upor does it come out of the ground like a stove pipe . How valuable is it what kind of rot affects it .. is it prone to widow makets . . Can it be swung or does it need to be wedged into its lay . 

If your going to be helpful . Be helpful . I started falling timber in 1973 . In Maine . Been workin in the brush since 71 . I still learn new stuff all the time . Most of my family still lives in Maine so I don't need to go online to learn how pointlessly argumentitive a Maineac can be .a guick phone call will remind me of that .


----------



## Spotted Owl (Mar 1, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> So Randy sweets, what's "wrong" ? Flame it is....."peterhead" . Now there's an up to date insult.
> You cut what ? Love to put yourself as Mr Pro like too many of your online cronys. Love to call people "those homeowners" as if all of you are living in your pickups with the skip tooth 50" bars.
> Oh, the grand drool from you on any kind of training and learning. "You mean to say you were'nt born with a skip tooth in your mouth !!! Like were." :confused2:
> 
> ...




Wow, who is this guy?

Kiwi, ask away. If you don't know and try anyway that is when the dumb and foolish comes into play. Even if you can't and only have it explained however many times it takes, is better than going out half cocked and getting you or someone else into trouble.

The only dumb question is not just the unasked, but the one you already know the answers too, or intend to argue about or those you have no intention to listen to the answers on. Also the unasked.

Not many here have even set eyes on your ground and sticks, so we can only put it into what we do have experience in and go from there.

Lots and lots of years of experience here and it shouldn't take you long on who is and who is not good to listen to, and head there advise or warnings.

Some like the Logbutcher seem to make everything into their own agendas for what ever reason and whatever that may be at the time.



Owl


----------



## GASoline71 (Mar 2, 2012)

Cleanup! Aisle 3! 

Gary


----------



## Gologit (Mar 2, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> Cleanup! Aisle 3!
> 
> Gary


----------



## possumtrapper (Mar 2, 2012)

Look out for those leaning smooth bark red gums Kiwibro. Seen even 6 foot thru buggers split up the back/barber chair when cut conventionally. Gotta bore 'em.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 3, 2012)

possumtrapper said:


> Look out for those leaning smooth bark red gums Kiwibro. Seen even 6 foot thru buggers split up the back/barber chair when cut conventionally. Gotta bore 'em.


Thanks. They do strike me as barber chair prospects. They seem like a tight/brittle fibre, for lack of a better description. 

I was practising on smaller Totora and Kahikatea, in today's near gale force winds. The Kike's are very tall for their DBH and had no lower branches, just a big green sail at the end of their long, skinny levers. Ironically, I experienced my first ever barber chair today on what I thought was a pretty decent bore+strap combo. I'd left too much holding wood in the hinge and when I released the strap and the sail headed down wind the trunk let out a 'ping' followed by a cracking rip and a wonderful lesson presented itself. Glad I learned that one on a small DBH tree and not on a big saw log, and while safely sheltering behind another tree. 

I had the camera in the car so shot some video of the stump and tree for future reference before tidying it up. 

I found it much more difficult to massage a tree off it's natural lay line when using the bore + strap. With the strap doing the holding (and I was very surprised by how little strap was needed), there isn't the same opportunity for me to feel how the tree is responding to the back-cut, and I can't use wedges to help a tree stand over a hinge that's not pointing directly down the natural lay line. It seems like the moment the strap is released, the tree responds to that sudden release by falling too far over the hinge before the hinge can have enough influence over the tree's direction. I hope I am making myself clear. 

How do you guys deal with leaners that need to fall just off (maybe 30 degrees max) one side from their natural lay? Do you still rely on a hinge, perhaps angled (so more holding wood on one side) as much as you dare? Do you direct the face cut off to the the side of the natural lay and just expect whatever hinge you leave will coax the leaner off it's line when the strap/s is/are released? Do you have a two straps with thickness's such that when you release one, the tree will start to go and then the holding forces on the strap will help pull the tree over the hinge and off the natural lay a little before that strap either rips out by itself or is cut? 

Or have I missed something?


----------



## derwoodii (Mar 3, 2012)

this ones a salient lesson 

[video=youtube;bRwkL7Nd9ys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRwkL7Nd9ys[/video]

avoid being in harms way


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 3, 2012)

In the case of falling a tree leaning 30 degrees off the intended lay, with the bore cut, how you release the strap can help. Once all you have left is the strap, instead of just cutting the strap from the back, try inserting the tip on the compression side and cutting toward the tension side, that way the last of the strap will pop but help pull the stem toward the intended lay, aiding the hingewood, hleping it pull around. A little more hinge wood on the tension side can help too, unless its to the point of causing a minor fracture at the hinge, which in some cases can propogate all the way through the log. 

A little while back I was trying to swing a heavy leaning poplar 90 degrees, i though I had it fine and dandy and was escaping my 45 and the barberchair from it twisting/breaking/busting up the hinge, it caught my shoulder as it busted and fell 45 degrees from the intended lay, that was a bit unnerving and a good reminder that there are limits.

I have been a very boring cutter lately. After months of heavy to poplar jobs with lots of humbolts and backcuts, I've been forced to open up my faces a bit and bore lots. Just the nature of the timber, lots of heavy leaning oak.


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 3, 2012)

There are times when unfortunatly you are going to have to beat wedges . 

Oh and Kiwi . If you are going to live long enough to get good .you have to know when you are blown out . Falling slick timber in gale force wind is a real easy way to die . 
Remember , you have to get good before you can get fast . 

I use kerf and step dutchmen quite a bit . And siswheel boring cuts . When you use siswheel bore cuts yYOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GET AWAY FROM THE STUMP !! Alot of times they will pull part of the stump out of the ground . Roots and all . Mostly on the holding wood side .


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 3, 2012)

In timber that is brittle the siswheel works well . It allows the holding wood to flex and move forward while still hanging onto the tree and thhereby pulling it into the face and your intended lay . 

I m e . Trees don't chair as much when the holding wood is only from the heart out to the holdinng wood side . .


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 3, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> this ones a salient lesson
> 
> [video=youtube;bRwkL7Nd9ys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRwkL7Nd9ys[/video]
> 
> avoid being in harms way




Derwoodi . Thanks for posting this .

This one is a toughy . Tho the vid shows the faller running the saw left handed I'm not sure he was . .
Having to buck blowdown on rock bluffs is common . Knowing when to run the saw left handed takes practice . Knowing when to say I ain't touching that experience and clear thinking ..


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 3, 2012)

Samlock said:


> You'll need something soothing. I'm not talking about a quarter of brown. The most important tool is, as I see it, a fool proof insurance. Also check the clausal which can only be deciphered with an electronic microscope and a virus filter. At least it works with me. As long as people are safe, everything that might get busted is just heaps of lumber, glass, metal and stone to me. Helps me to keep the focus on the task, not on the chips.
> 
> Sam


That makes plenty of sense, thank you. Within the constraints of inexperience, there's still plenty I can asses and do before deciding not just how to drop any tree but firstly whether I should. I don't have insurance as I'm not qualified and heck, if I was an insurance company I'd not insure me. There isn't $100k's of gear on my jobs. If I put it all together it might scrape $50k. I'm just trying to make the most of these farm blocks to 'learn on the job' and have to apply far more time to identifying and assessing the hazards than an experienced and trained person would and as long as I can stay safe, I'm happy to spend a few hours cleaning up the mess if there are some valuable lessons to be learned from something that doesn't work out.

Proper training and gaining qualifications is on my list and quite high up it, but for now I'm experimenting and practising and basically trying to soak up as much info as I can.

Biggest issue yesterday was learning how different woods react to similar stresses and felling cuts, in high winds. It's a wonderful day when I make it out alive, don't wreck anything, and have learned many lessons. I love the element of control over timing the bore and strap offer. Just one little cut to release the tree and it drops. I was timing such releases yesterday either in between wind gusts or in the middle of them to learn the differences.

Worst drop yesterday (apart from the barber chair Kahikatea) was a maybe 3' tree leaning slightly over a three-wire electric fence, but not so much that I thought I couldn't wedge it over the hinge and down wind so it avoided the fence, probably 45 degrees from it's natural lay. Just to be safe I tripped the power to the fence (no stock in those paddocks) and dropped the wires. A conventional cut with about a 2+' long hinge and I was resigned to beating the snot out my favourite wedges to get her started if the wind didn't help enough. Used a 25" bar, planned on setting the hinge up from both sides. As I come around to the tension side having already set a few wedges, she starts going soft on me and I realise there's next to no decent holding wood on the tension side of the hinge. Was nothing in the face cut to warn me, the tree seemed solid and very much alive. Had I plunged through the middle of the face above the hinge I would have had an indication of rot. Heck, even if I had plunged to start my backcut I would have got an inkling not all was well with that tree as even though Totora is soft, it's not that soft. With not enough solid wood on the tension side of the hinge and unable to get enough lift on the wedges it dropped only about 10 degrees off it's natural lay and I was fortunate to not snap any fence posts.

Faced with that scenario, how would you pros deal with it? Blocked it down? Rope/cabled it? Pushed it over with your digger/harvesters? What sort of cut would you have used? How would you test for rot in a way that doesn't compromise the holding of the tree or limit your felling cut options should you find rot?

Some days, I think I need to knock off a few hours early and use the time to walk around my stumps and make the most of any lessons that crop up during the day so I learn them and what to do differently next time around. It's a slow process, this learning, if I'm to do it relatively safely.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 3, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> avoid being in harms way


thank you. It strikes me that assessing where that harm might come from is 90% of the battle.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 3, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> In timber that is brittle the siswheel works well . It allows the holding wood to flex and move forward while still hanging onto the tree and thhereby pulling it into the face and your intended lay .
> 
> I m e . Trees don't chair as much when the holding wood is only from the heart out to the holdinng wood side . .


Thanks. I googled siswheel and came up with this:
[video=youtube;BFiytdsdXfw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFiytdsdXfw[/video]


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 4, 2012)

It would be good if Burvol or Tarzan would get on here . They r real good with the camera .


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 4, 2012)

I have scraped a few pics from my barber chair video but can't seem to upload them to AS at the mo'. :frown:


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> If you are going to live long enough to get good .you have to know when you are blown out . Falling slick timber in gale force wind is a real easy way to die .
> Remember , you have to get good before you can get fast .


I do understand what you are saying and thanks for pointing it out. Speed doesn't bother me. It will come with experience, not the other way around, I promise. Can you please explain where the hazards are apart from perhaps a strap blowing out unexpectedly or a blow-down or similar debris taking me out?

I was working a small corridor/ wind tunnel with just a few of these tall slender trees at it's edge. The way they were orientated relative to the wind, I was not ever going to be directly downwind of any should they have uprooted. the others were short and bigger trunks with less windage on them, except the one rotten leaner I mentioned in a previous post. If they were gums there would be no way I'd be in amongst them as those are known here as widow-makers for good reason. 

Because it looked like the risks of a blowdown were tiny and if it occurred I'd never be downwind of it, I thought I'd never get a better opportunity to learn high-wind felling with bore cuts and straps.

Was I just darn lucky? If so, what else should I have considered please? thanks.


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't know why he doesn't use a Dutchman with the siswheel . Also I can't figure out why he leaves holding wood on the off side . .

Using most different swing cuts is all about continous motion . If done correctly , once the tree starts moving it shouldn't stop until its on the ground . The siswheel just keeps the tree hooked to the stump for a short time longer 

Do a search . There should be a thread on here about swing cuts . 

Possibly a thread on Directional falling .?


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 4, 2012)

The wind just makes everything worse . How tall is the timber u r falling ? I wouldn't worry about getting high wond experience . You cut timber long enough and you'll get alot more of it than u want . .
Are you limbing and bucking where the lay or tree length logging them


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I don't know why he doesn't use a Dutchman with the siswheel . Also I can't figure out why he leaves holding wood on the off side . .
> 
> Using most different swing cuts is all about continous motion . *If done correctly , once the tree starts moving it shouldn't stop until its on the ground . *The siswheel just keeps the tree hooked to the stump for a short time longer
> 
> ...



I do hate it when a tree comes off the stump and floats away. :hmm3grin2orange:

The old blockcut will keep the trunk on the stump for a very long time and can control the stem all the way to the ground. It does work better if the trunk has a bit of girth to it.


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 4, 2012)

Hey Randy 
How did u guys get those faces out ? 
I've seen pics of big big big trees that had block faces .


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 4, 2012)

Plunge cuts, chunkin' it out.

Cody the Tarzanman did this
Falling Old Growth Redwood; Humboldt County CA 2002 - YouTube

One of mine on a little Pine.


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 4, 2012)

I lifted this from an earlier post.
They are basic examples




RandyMac said:


> Humboldt cut. Used when a flush butt is needed, it saves board feet. This style will push the trunk clear of the stump. If done properly, it will prevent the dreaded stump or fiber pull that cause deductible defect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## GASoline71 (Mar 4, 2012)

Frickin' suh-weet...

Gary


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 4, 2012)

Randy . Wow . Cool . Those block faces look like they work real good but would take alot of time . A great face for day waging .


----------



## Gologit (Mar 4, 2012)

The block face doesn't take a lot longer to do once you get used to doing it. It's not as fast as a Humboldt but it's worth the little bit of extra time. If you're trying to save out valuable timber it can help you keep your job.

If you're cutting big brittle wood like Redwood or Cedar a lot of guys will snipe the bottom of the face, that helps let it off the stump a little softer and it gets the money log part of the tree on the ground first. Very little breakage that way.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 5, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> I lifted this from an earlier post.
> They are basic examples


 Thank you very much for this. What's going on with the blocking idea please? Less impediment to the butt of the log while angling over as it falls so less chance of premature ejectulation ? Also, does it allow the holding wood to be pulled forward and hang on longer before breaking, giving more chance of the hinge influencing the direction? 

Is it daft to be thinking of blocking + siswheel combos for swinging leaners?


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 5, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> In the case of falling a tree leaning 30 degrees off the intended lay, with the bore cut, how you release the strap can help. Once all you have left is the strap, instead of just cutting the strap from the back, try inserting the tip on the compression side and cutting toward the tension side, that way the last of the strap will pop but help pull the stem toward the intended lay, aiding the hingewood, hleping it pull around. A little more hinge wood on the tension side can help too, unless its to the point of causing a minor fracture at the hinge, which in some cases can propogate all the way through the log.
> 
> A little while back I was trying to swing a heavy leaning poplar 90 degrees, i though I had it fine and dandy and was escaping my 45 and the barberchair from it twisting/breaking/busting up the hinge, it caught my shoulder as it busted and fell 45 degrees from the intended lay, that was a bit unnerving and a good reminder that there are limits.
> 
> I have been a very boring cutter lately. After months of heavy to poplar jobs with lots of humbolts and backcuts, I've been forced to open up my faces a bit and bore lots. Just the nature of the timber, lots of heavy leaning oak.


 Thanks for this. I think the next time I go experimenting I'll leave a big strap and release it from the compression side like you say, taking small bites and :
a. look up as much as possible and see if she ( I dunno why but I tend to think of trees like boats and call 'em 'she') is cooperating.
b. try pick a tree where the strap won't be sitting above any flared out section of trunk that's likely to get a little funky and flail around when the strap finally pops. 

What's quite encouraging is that it doesn't seem to take much strap to hold 'em so perhaps I could at least get 'em starting to creep their weight over a hinge that's set offset from their natural lay before that strap pops. Just a bit tricky in high winds - there was just too much wind for my inexperienced self to notice any significant influence coming from the strap. the tops were going one way, straight down wind most of the time.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 5, 2012)

*Do I earn a barber chair patch or somefink?*

Finally, had to use the basic uploader as the advanced one is broken for me now.


----------



## StihlKiwi (Mar 7, 2012)

I hope those 'kikes aren't gunna end up as firewood KiwiBro :jester:
Whereabouts are you based?


----------



## Samlock (Mar 7, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Finally, had to use the basic uploader as the advanced one is broken for me now.



Oooops. You've must been in a hurry there...

I haven't seen the whole deal and certainly have no idea about the tree species, but perhaps a deeper face cut would have spared you a good dash. A face 1/4 - 1/3 of the diameter is usually ok.


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 7, 2012)

Yep, a deeper under cut would have saved you the dash and some wood as well.


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 7, 2012)

If you are chairing them like that u r in too much wind . And like Saam said . You didn't have quite enough face on that one . 
When u put in the face . U can use the tip and just hog out ( bore) the venter of the face out . Just leave a post of holding wood on both sides . Unless u r using a swing cut .


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 7, 2012)

Mis spells . SAM # center.


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 7, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Mis spells . SAM # center.



don't sweat the typos


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 7, 2012)

:msp_thumbup:


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks guys.
Boring the face and having a deeper face - are they essentially arriving at the same destination, that being less hinge wood?
I mean, if I didn't deepen the face cut on that tree and just had less holding wood in the hinge (cut it thinner on the backcut), would that have been acceptable?


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 7, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> I hope those 'kikes aren't gunna end up as firewood KiwiBro :jester:
> Whereabouts are you based?


They may, sadly. There was just a 1/2 dozen or so of them so not permitted. Finding a mill that will dare to touch non-permitted native timber is not easy. It's not worth the risk for them.
If I won lotto, I'd be buying a mill. Have almost got enough standing saw logs lined up to pay one off next Summer, but at the mo' my experience levels would ruin too many trees and that's just not fair on them. So they get a reprieve until next Summer. I am hoping to find a portable miller who'd take me under their wing and teach me on some of their jobs if I give them a hand for free.

Based North of Auckland until I run out of trees and get more experience/training, then I'll chase trees anywhere....if still alive!


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 7, 2012)

Maybe the butt swell threw you off, that was like, way shallow. On a tree that size, boring at the center of the back cut, through to the face would work and insure that the cut would match. Sometimes boring through the face will be under where the backcut should be.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 7, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Maybe the butt swell threw you off, that was like, way shallow. On a tree that size, boring at the center of the back cut, through to the face would work and insure that the cut would match. Sometimes boring through the face will be under where the backcut should be.


 thanks.


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 7, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Thanks guys.
> Boring the face and having a deeper face - are they essentially arriving at the same destination, that being less hinge wood?
> I mean, if I didn't deepen the face cut on that tree and just had less holding wood in the hinge (cut it thinner on the backcut), would that have been acceptable?[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 7, 2012)

It just looks like too thick of a hinge to me.


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 7, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> It just looks like too thick of a hinge to me.



Hesitation wound?


----------



## tramp bushler (Mar 7, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Hesitation wound?



Like that song from Craig + Terry .
" like when to take your time , and when to cut and run "


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 8, 2012)

and then there's sometimes where its "you better keep on cutting and cutting hard, hang in there, cause this time its game on" I had one of those yesterday, where it started to go a whole lot faster than expected.

Yesterdays wind was the "if its not going just wait a minute and the wind will let go" type. the other day I walked off becasue it was the "gust will hit you and rip the ####er off the hinge" type.

A little deeper face might have helped too, not to discount that idea. the stump looks like it was bored, so it was more of a matter of sloppy cutting than hesitation


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 8, 2012)

Sorry lad, shouldna used that term. One of the guys across the corridor made 8 or 9 "hesitation" cuts on his victim before going all out, which included some evisceration, dismemberment and a dab of cannibalism.

When in doubt walk or saw the livin' hell outta it and run like the wind.


----------



## KiwiBro (Mar 8, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> and then there's sometimes where its "you better keep on cutting and cutting hard, hang in there, cause this time its game on" I had one of those yesterday, where it started to go a whole lot faster than expected.
> 
> Yesterdays wind was the "if its not going just wait a minute and the wind will let go" type. the other day I walked off becasue it was the "gust will hit you and rip the ####er off the hinge" type.
> 
> A little deeper face might have helped too, not to discount that idea. the stump looks like it was bored, so it was more of a matter of sloppy cutting than hesitation


Lack of experience, skills, trying out a new technique and learning where the limits are. Yeap, sloppy in the sense it was just plain wrong for sure. Funny thing is I took my time on it and thought I had it pretty darn good, figured the hinge is about as big as I'd want to go but let's try it to be sure and see if the sudden pop from the strap makes any difference to what the hinge does or can handle, not to mention the high winds. I figured I learned more from that one cut than a dozen safe ones, but it's not a lesson I want to repeat in a hurry and certainly not on bigger trees, so I hope it's learned.


----------



## KiwiBro (May 26, 2012)

*Here's one of yesterdays trees.*

View attachment 239511







It wanted to go down the hill but I managed to get it over the fence.
Why is it that most often if there is rot in the tree you can almost bet your house it's going to be wherever you don't want it to be?

It managed to hold just enough before the rot section of the hinge pulled out.

When you know you're going to swing a tree, how would you check for rot in the crucial holding wood area without seriously undermining the wood you're hoping to use to swing it? If I bored through before hand, I would have had to bore off to the side right through the holding wood to find it, and then what? Leave it and go get the digger and cable?


----------



## derwoodii (May 26, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> View attachment 239511
> 
> how would you check for rot in the crucial holding wood area without seriously undermining the wood you're hoping to use to swing it? If I bored through before hand, I would have had to bore off to the side right through the holding wood to find it, and then what? Leave it and go get the digger and cable?



Your Xray vision may help here.:msp_tongue: or a small mallet may help to tap n sound the trunk for decay pockets its not always the perfect solution but more often with practice can give you clue.


----------



## KiwiBro (May 26, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> Your Xray vision may help here.:msp_tongue: or a small mallet may help to tap n sound the trunk for decay pockets its not always the perfect solution but more often with practice can give you clue.


thanks for that. I'll have to practice that.
Could there be any connection between the rot and areas of the tree having the least compression on them (often the most useful as holding wood)? It's happened a few times to me lately and I'm starting to think it's not a coincidence.


----------



## derwoodii (May 26, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> thanks for that. I'll have to practice that.
> Could there be any connection between the rot and areas of the tree having the least compression on them (often the most useful as holding wood)? It's happened a few times to me lately and I'm starting to think it's not a coincidence.



Tree deacy and its progess is a tricky thing to predict. Looking for old wounds above or below your scarf may help id likey sites The concection you described,, sorry I dont quite follow best need pictures but a read here may help understanding of the decay process.
Tree Decay An Expanded concept


----------



## tramp bushler (May 26, 2012)

If you bore in vertically where you want your holding wood it can help . Then just give yourself an extra finger width of holding wood left when you put in the back cut . 
Sounding a tree with your ax works alot of time . Its easy to get lots of practice . Just go around beating the hell out of every tree you fall . You'll learn alot . Sometimes rot is horizontally regionalized . Meaning is you go up the tree 2 or 3 ' you will be in alot sounder wood . Fall it there. Then cut the stump off .


----------



## KiwiBro (May 26, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> If you bore in vertically where you want your holding wood it can help . Then just give yourself an extra finger width of holding wood left when you put in the back cut .
> Sounding a tree with your ax works alot of time . Its easy to get lots of practice . Just go around beating the hell out of every tree you fall . You'll learn alot . Sometimes rot is horizontally regionalized . Meaning is you go up the tree 2 or 3 ' you will be in alot sounder wood . Fall it there. Then cut the stump off .


Thanks. The rot looks like it will stop about three feet up the trunk. I guess i better learn way to cut so far off the ground on the downhill side of the tree when on steep ground b/c that three feet would have turned to overhead pretty quick around the other side of the tree. Set a plank in the stump?

Or perhaps just get a bigger saw.


----------



## tramp bushler (May 26, 2012)

Thats one of the many reasons we run full wrap handle bars . I've fell hundreds of trees where I put in half the falling cuts or more with the saw over my head . Someone like Coastal Faller would have the saw shoulder high . Bein short isn't advantagous for fallin timber on steep ground .


----------



## KiwiBro (May 26, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> Tree deacy and its progess is a tricky thing to predict. Looking for old wounds above or below your scarf may help id likey sites The concection you described,, sorry I dont quite follow best need pictures but a read here may help understanding of the decay process.
> Tree Decay An Expanded concept


Thanks. That's a little more reading on tree decay than I had in mind but it's Sunday so what the heck. What i mean about the rot positioning is that I find often (too often for my liking) it's in the side of the tree under the least compression (perhaps even a bit of tension on the outer section), which is usually the side I need to have good holding wood. 

I was wondering if the tree doesn't heal itself as easily when it's fibres are under tension compared to compression and as such rot persists or gets larger. Or it's just Murphy striking again.


----------



## KiwiBro (May 26, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Thats one of the many reasons we run full wrap handle bars . I've fell hundreds of trees where I put in half the falling cuts or more with the saw over my head . Someone like Coastal Faller would have the saw shoulder high . Bein short isn't advantagous for fallin timber on steep ground .


It's a fairly light saw compared to many but I don't do it often enough to build the requisite strength (or maybe it's just technique) to work at head height all day on steep slopes. A while ago I was using the same saw 'pruning' for a few days and most of said work was at shoulder height or above and I needed to find 'easy' stuff to do after about 3pm because I was knackered and unsafe as a result.

At some stage before next Summer down here I'll have to look into a full wrap handle for the biggish gums on the to-do list. Especially as they need to be bored and I suck at boring from the top of the nose or working left handed, not to mention the steep ground some of them they are on.

cheers.


----------



## tramp bushler (May 26, 2012)

Thats why a cutting day is 6 hours on the saw . And if you make up a couple spring boards , have truely Sharp chains . Good fallin dogs on your saw . Long enough bar on your saw . Full wrap hb. Good sharp cork shoes on your feet . Then youu will have the stuff to professionally fall timber . Once your set and learn how . You will be amazed at how fast you can plug the landing with the timber you fell ..

There is a real reason why west coast fallers use what the do in the way they do .


----------

