# Tcia & Isa



## lxt (Jul 12, 2007)

Did anybody read the Tcia Mag. for july pg 64 accreditation paragraph beside #3?

who do these entities think they are? their gonna lead the fight through lobbying the Govt. & enforce regulations!!!

low paying cash under the table employers. who hasnt done a job under the table let alone pay their employees under the table. 

Im legit!!! but every now & then the homeowner pays with cash

so now Tcia & Isa are in bed with OHSA & ANSI? further in the article I like the fact that Cities with an Society of Municipal arborist program must give preference to TCIA accredited companies!(arborist training dont mean squat)

also stated was a tree company gouging a city for $70,000.00 more and proud of it!! BEWARE:Cities, towns, municipalities and suburbs of such sign on with TCIA/ISA and your gonna PAY!!!!

to all you little guys legit or not this should be a warning!!! I was seriously thinking about getting the arborist cert. but now I guess you need to be accredited. Like I said before these entities will make up CERT`s, Programs & other such BS. just to get $$$$ & if they dont get enough people to jump on board they lobby, cheat, lie and scratch the back of a GOVT agency till they make it a law, ordinance, regulation, or other.

Meet your new organized crime outfit TCIA/ISA Union in the making!!

LXT..........:chainsawguy:


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## Slvrmple72 (Jul 12, 2007)

I could say something touchy 'bout the trade unions and the construction biz in general but I'm not gonna Sad to see the possible direction this is going but cannot say that I am surprised by it:bang:


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## mckeetree (Jul 12, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I don't think TCIA does much for the small guy these days. It's big company oriented.



Well, it used to, but now it seems to be geared toward larger companies. When I first joined NAA (TCIA) years ago it was a different organization from what it is now regardless of what they say.


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## mckeetree (Jul 13, 2007)

And while I am still here me and everybody else I know in the the tree care business , and I know a lot of them, think the accreditation deal is a great big load of crap.


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## Ekka (Jul 13, 2007)

lxt said:


> Meet your new organized crime outfit TCIA/ISA Union in the making!!



They'll do for the tree business what catholics did for religion. :hmm3grin2orange: 

Publish their financials, lets see what their bottom line is.


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## lxt (Jul 13, 2007)

good posts guy`s, for a minute I just thought I was the only one thinking this, I too remember the NAA a totally different organization in deed, a good organization.

I guess; take myself for example, I trained for 5yrs through an apprenticeship, classroom involvement, really wanting to excel in this trade. here years later seeing that Cert`s. may be needed I think ok! I`ll get it!

shazam, now I need to be accredited!! when does the paper(pigskin) stop? and talent & experience pickup and takeover. maybe it wont, I dont know.

just dont like where this trade is going, lets supersize it like wal-mart & do away with the Lil guys.

LXT.................


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## hornett22 (Jul 13, 2007)

*remember the NRA?*

they sold us gun owners out.all the associations do when they get some money in their account.i no longer join or support many of these scams.


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## Ekka (Jul 13, 2007)

You reckon there's any kickbacks and favours going on?


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## John464 (Jul 13, 2007)

while i believe that they do provide a great source of knowledge for those in this business I do not care for the mentality that if you are not certified you are beneath those that are not certified. I see it all the time on here, by people like treeser, whom works for the ISA and has hidden interests in their promotion. statements like.... If a certified arborist isn't working on the tree, the tree wasn't pruned correctly. Or don't hire a tree service , you must hire a certified arborist to asses the situation because those tree services have no idea what they are looking at. This mentality is partially what keeps me away from paying the ISA and TCIA yearly fees. The ISA and TCIA are private big businesses, much different than say an electrician's certification that is take at your local trade school. 


I myself am not certified and do not feel the need to be. I have certified arborist employees that are great workers, but when it comes time to prune that 100yr old chesnut oak or take down a real hairy leaner over a house with a glass roof, my certified guys are on the ground watching me dance throughout the tree. What does that tell you?


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 13, 2007)

i am I.S.A. Certifed Arborist and proud of it,,,that means that i am on top of the latest trends and have reached a very high platform in tree care knowledge and the industry,,,i went to school for trees and i believe i would rather have a Certifed Arborist work on my tree than any yahooooo company out there,,,,i work for a government and the people we serve(the public) are very pleased to know that a Certified Arborist is on hand,,,we have to continually take classes and courses to keep us on our toes in the newest equipment and knowledge in the tree care industry


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## lxt (Jul 13, 2007)

john464, WELL SAID!!

JRparbor04, why does this cert. mean you are at the top of your game? refer to john464`s post. anyone who can read can gain knowledge!!!!

Im not a CA, but ill tell ya I know just as much as most in my area, & more than some. truth is im busy doing the climbing,bucket work on some big ugly thing, I dont have the time to read or the want to pay for a cert. that according to TCIA`s article wont get you jack!! now accredited is in the mix.

I have the arborist books & am licensed by PA dept of Agriculture in pesticide/herbicide application. so as far as knowledge goes!! its attainable by most on here. newest equipment(you state) are you personally operating it? certified to operate it? I & many others on here have worked for the power companies(we`ve ran just about everything out there!!!!!& are certified to do so) 

school for trees, high platform? HA!! 20yrs & Ive been up in high platforms thats the real world & im still learning, books get you so far an A+ on the test is nice but hang over the powerlines sport, climb the 150ft ugly fir after the storm......... dont forget your book, the public might think less of you!!

LXT.....................


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 13, 2007)

lxt said:


> john464, WELL SAID!!
> 
> JRparbor04, why does this cert. mean you are at the top of your game? refer to john464`s post. anyone who can read can gain knowledge!!!!
> 
> ...


i am also a public applicator for the state of missouri,,woohoo,,,not a big test,,,i operate everthing we have,,,,climbing,,,bucket truck,,,crane,,,and certified if it pleases you,,,screw the power companies,,,keep that book there buddy,,,you might learn something,,,i am on top of my game,,,you might want to attend classes and/or seminars to keep up on the industry,,,get that certification,,,,you must not be able to get it,,,explains your mood


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## beowulf343 (Jul 13, 2007)

jrparbor04 said:


> i am also a public applicator for the state of missouri,,woohoo,,,not a big test,,,i operate everthing we have,,,,climbing,,,bucket truck,,,crane,,,and certified if it pleases you,,,screw the power companies,,,keep that book there buddy,,,you might learn something,,,i am on top of my game,,,you might want to attend classes and/or seminars to keep up on the industry,,,get that certification,,,,you must not be able to get it,,,explains your mood



How long have you been in the business?


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## Stumpcutter1 (Jul 13, 2007)

I *was* a NRA member for many yrs and thats exactly what they did was sell us out screw them too.and as far as certification fine if you want but of most the companies I know around here me included are not certified.But we sure seem to be able to takedown a tree just fine and a freinds son just became certified but is the worst treeman I know just got his cert so they could use it for a bid on a village job LMAO.Might as well pass another freakin law.All this government seems to do is pass more laws for the rich and take our liberties at the same time this country is in every way wiping out the small guys but that seems to be the trend doesnt it?
life,liberty and pursuit of happiness isnt what it used to be


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## Dadatwins (Jul 13, 2007)

The problem with the ISA and the Certified arbo program is that they will allow anyone with a checkbook to join. You are not required to have ever climbed a tree and can still be called a certified arborist. This has come up many times before and the ISA policy of non-discrimination is the only answer that the ISA gives. I and many others do not agree with the policy. I suggested different CA types to differentiate between climbing arborist and non, but was told it would be to complicated and they want simplicity. As for TCIA coming up with their accrediation program they are also trying to validate there members with a certificate also. The main goal of all these programs is to acheive some sort of a group voice like electricians and plumbers. I hope that long term this will help balance insurance rates and separate the local landscraper/wanna-be-tree-cudder from a professional tree company. Hopefully in time this will allow customers to be more willing to pay a premium price for premium service. When a pipe burst in the house folks call the local licensed plumber and pay whatever it takes. Yet when a tree dies most folks could care less about license, they want cheap. Biggest hurdle is enforcement of both groups rules. There are plenty of Certified arbo out there topping and spiking pruned trees because the bottom line is $$$. If they don't do it someone else will. Both groups turn the other way since it is hard to discipline when you are trying to recruit members which equal $$$. As for TCIA going after the big companies, why not? They need $$$ to keep these programs going and joe pickup truck can't supply enough of it. I look forward to getting higher prices for quality work and am willing to ride the coat-tails of the big companies to achieve that goal. opcorn:


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## Stumpcutter1 (Jul 13, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> The problem with the ISA and the Certified arbo program is that they will allow anyone with a checkbook to join. You are not required to have ever climbed a tree and can still be called a certified arborist. This has come up many times before and the ISA policy of non-discrimination is the only answer that the ISA gives. I and many others do not agree with the policy.
> 
> 
> > thats right certified means you payed them and passed the written test not that you can do the work its total BS means nothing in the end


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## treeseer (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah that's right--we don't need no stinking organizations, screw em all. Stick it to the man! 

Uh, wait, the man is...us! :blush:

I don't want to break up the flow of the group rant here, but this one got a little deep...


John464 said:


> people like treeser, whom works for the ISA and has hidden interests in their promotion.


Nope, I don't work for them. I do get paid for writing some things, which comes out to a beginner groundie's pay rate but that's not why I do it. I volunteer to do committee work because I have a blatant interest in the health of both orgs, and I know the only way to change the BIG problems I see with them is to get involved. TCIA does a great job with ANSI standards--you've heard of those?--and keeping that biggest ugliest org of all, the us government, off your back.


> statements like.... If a certified arborist isn't working on the tree, the tree wasn't pruned correctly.


Never said that.


> Or don't hire a tree service , you must hire a certified arborist to asses the situation because those tree services have no idea what they are looking at.


I may have said words to that effect, because most tree services are removal specialists. But CA's screw up too. Just today I came out of a big red oak I was reducing before I cable it, and the lady across the street had me look at a declining cherry tree that a CA was due to remove today but did a no show. i found a girdling root and had my crew prune it and the branches, saving a lot of $, and the tree


> The ISA and TCIA are private big businesses,


Sorry to get the truth in the way of a good story, but the ISA is a nonprofit, very different from a private business.


> I have certified arborist employees that are great workers, but when it comes time to prune that 100yr old chesnut oak or take down a real hairy leaner over a house with a glass roof, my certified guys are on the ground watching me dance throughout the tree. What does that tell you?


It tells me that your employees need to learn how to climb better, which means that you need to trust them and train them, if you can. I have 3 certifications and oldschool gear and can outclimb a lot of newschoolers with more gear than some stores. What does that tell you? Not much.

Are you willing to shed your ego and change these organizations by working with them, or are you content to lob hand grenades and sit on the sidelines?opcorn: :welcome:


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## Dadatwins (Jul 13, 2007)

Treeco - The CA test does cover climbing in writing as part of the written test. The entire CA test is written. I think only 8-10% of the test is tree climbing knowledge. The ISA tree worker certificate has both a written and practical climbing test. On the ISA scale of achievements the tree worker test is the bottom rung of the ladder. 
As for the TCIA program , I am still on the fence and waiting to see how it progresses before diving in. I like the fact that the goal is to lower insurance rates and possibly get some kind of group buying power. I almost wish the ISA and TCIA would join forces with ISA handling the science and TCIA focused on the business end. Now they are dabbling in both, sort of the jack-of-all-trades -but master- of -little-syndrom. But better than nothing.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

Speaking of the ISA, check out pages 3 and 4 from the thread "New to treework" by Gotta cut. What a joke.


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## Dadatwins (Jul 13, 2007)

Was wondering when you were going to jump on a ISA thread, knowing how you feel about the group you were gentle, thanks.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Was wondering when you were going to jump on a ISA thread, knowing how you feel about the group you were gentle, thanks.



Dada, I have met a few ISA certified guys who were decent and have common sense. I would like your opinion on that thread I spoke of though, it may interest you, then again it will probably disturb you as well.


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## joesawer (Jul 13, 2007)

Certified does not, has not, and will not mean qualified. But the litigation people love it.


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## John464 (Jul 14, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Yeah that's right--we don't need no stinking organizations, screw em all. Stick it to the man!
> 
> Uh, wait, the man is...us! :blush:
> 
> ...





treeseer said:


> Nope, I don't work for them. I do get paid for writing some things, which comes out to a beginner groundie's pay rate but that's not why I do it. I volunteer to do committee work because I have a blatant interest in the health of both orgs, and I know the only way to change the BIG problems I see with them is to get involved. TCIA does a great job with ANSI standards--you've heard of those?--and keeping that biggest ugliest org of all, the us government, off your back.



You don't work for them but are on the committe board, write articles for them, and write their "rule book", and you get paid. That is an employee covering many divisions of the company. Sounds like a great employee at that. They love you Guy, keep up the good work. If your customers cant keep you busy I'm sure the ISA and TCIA will pay you to sit in the office writing and talking about trees. You suggest I do that? No thanks, I prefer actually working on trees then talking about them. 



treeseer said:


> Never said that. I may have said words to that effect, because most tree services are removal specialists.



There you go making blanket statements again. Since you are so fond of linking statistics, where is literature to make such a statement? There are more companies in the US that call themselves "XYZ tree service" than any other term. You are saying that the majority of tree proffesionals are not qualified just because of a way their company name? If I were to make blanket statements about a lot of certified guys I could say they are better to call when you need easy handsaw cuts in your tree instead of rigging large dead limbs that require a 440 sized chainsaw to get through them. I know thats not true, but If I were into generalizations like you I could surely go on.


treeseer said:


> It tells me that your employees need to learn how to climb better, which means that you need to trust them and train them, if you can.



You are right my employees need to learn how to climb better and that is why I don't put them on the most challenging tasks. They will get to that point and I can tell you that they will not get there because they have the latest ISA certificate. It will be acquired through real life experience that takes place outside of the office. I am glad they are certified, it shows they are serious about their job, but do they stand out over and above my employees over the years? Sure, they carry a lot more gear up with them. 



treeseer said:


> Sorry to get the truth in the way of a good story, but the ISA is a nonprofit, very different from a private business.



Nonprofit you say? Take a look at one of their CD's or DVD's for a few hundred dollars a piece. How much does that CD cost to manufacturer? Perhaps a a few dollars. How much did it cost them to organize the info within it? As you said we have guys like you who are only making "ground guys pay" for their time.

So were does that huge profit go? It surely isnt going to homeowner education. It is going to full page ads marketing to arborists . It is going to Hawaii for a trade show. Their profit is largely placed into pulling more arborists to sign up. If they cared so much about trees they would inform the homeowners, because ultimately the homeowner or business requesting such services on their trees will have the final say. However, that homeowner isn't going to pay $200 for a CD or sign up as an ISA or TCIA member. Real non profit organizations try to make a difference in all aspects of the spectrum they organized within. Just targeting those that effect revenue will only make a difference to a limited extent. 

If it's a non profit organization I believe it is within each and every member's right to know where the $ is going. Just today we found out some of it goes to Guy Mueiller, although he doesn't think it's much or not enough.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 14, 2007)

The real purpose of the ISA cert is to show that the practitioner has a minimum knowledge level, it was never meant to show expertise. It only requires 2 or 4 (cannot remember) years in the industry, or a degree.

Then again, climbing is not the end all to arboriculture, which is what Guy was getting at. For many tree companies removal and aesthetic trim work constitute a the bulk of gross revenue. 

One way I make my money is providing ID and pathology information and opinions to my tree company clientel, because they have not had the time or inclination to pursue it. 

Last week I asked one of them what kind of arborist he was, when he parked the loader under a tree to keep the seat from getting hot.


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## treeseer (Jul 14, 2007)

John I agree with your observations about the lack of focus on their primary mission of educating the public. Do you know what ISA and TCIA are doing now, and have ideas on how can they do a better job of raising tree awareness?

As for the rest, time to clarify a few more misconceptions:



John464 said:


> You don't work for them but are on the committe board, write articles for them, and write their "rule book"


I serve on one ISA committee, and no I'm not on any of the "rule book" ANSI committees. I do join in ANSI work by making comments during the Public Coment period, which anyone can do if they give a spit about industry rules and want to change them.

If you read the page 8 articles of the last two TCI mags and think they are worthless, I apologize for wasting your time. What makes them useful to most readers is the fact they are based on field experience. I prefer actually working on trees and then talking about them, instead of flaming on a forum about how orgs suck and I am great.


> You are saying that the majority of tree proffesionals are not qualified just because of a way their company name?


I'm saying what JPS is saying, above. Based on 42 years of working with and competing against tree services, I have no doubt that most focus on easy money--removals and cutting branches out of the way of something, rather than caring for the whole tree so it lasts. There is a growing market for tree care and a shrinking number of urban trees that need removing, and a growing number of tree removal specialists, many of them with cheap immigrant labor. Do the math.


> You are right my employees need to learn how to climb better and that is why I don't put them on the most challenging tasks. They will get to that point and I can tell you that they will not get there because they have the latest ISA certificate. It will be acquired through real life experience that takes place outside of the office. I am glad they are certified, it shows they are serious about their job...


Darn right it does. And I agree that field experience is essential for book learning to work. We agree on a lot; how about applying your energy in a positive way? Do you know what ISA and TCIA are doing now, and have ideas on how can they do a better job of raising tree awareness?


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## Pancake (Jul 14, 2007)

Our company has 4 employees and we are the only TCIA Acredited company in the state, and only 2 of the bordering states have Acredtied companies- good selling point. We are also all Certified Arborists, 3 of us are Tree Workers and 1 is a Utility Specailist. We charge $350 an hour and do mosly all day jobs. I think the credentials *AND* our quality service allow us to charge those rates. We all climb and drag brush. I have a dergee and a applicators liscence, however, my ISA certifications have helped me the most in the field. Both groups are non profits so you can get annual reports to see thebottom line. The ISA publishes both theirs and individual chapters annually and they are presented at conference. I think the industry is getting saturated wiyh weekend warrior type tree companies- capitalism. That's fine. It is my feeling that the more professional we are as a whole, the more money we will collectively make all while making the trees we love healthier. Why are you dancing in the tree?


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 14, 2007)

when a person decides to become an I.S.A. Certified Arborist they are making an effort to stay on top of the industry ever changing standards and science,,,they have comitted themselves to trim and remove properly and safely,,,not all do that,,,but i for one am comitted to the trees,,,that is why i am in the industry,,,,,BECAUSE I CARE


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 14, 2007)

*Man, some of you just don't get it!*

Certification and accreditation programs should be welcomed by anyone in this business who has a brain. The problem with "old-timers" is they want things to keep rolling along their way, and, guess what? Their way is, many times, NOT the right way, the best way for the trees. I have worked with guys who have been in the biz thirty years, and I have been shocked to see improper cuts, dangerous climbing gear, terrible technique, etc. I worked hard to get my degree, get my CA, get my applicator's license. I will continue to learn more, study more, and get more certificates when called on to do so. Instead of being close-minded, try to see the positive side of rules and regulations enforcement: Fewer fly-by-night and monkey-with-chainsaw "companies" could pop up to slice the pie so thin that it's no longer worth working in our chosen profession.

I have a unique perspective here: Some of you know I was a tattooist before getting into arboriculture. I saw shop after shop open in my town until I could no longer make a living with my shop. The body-mod biz has two major organizations, APP & APT, that try to represent it. Both of these organizations, when I was a member, basically tried to push for self-regulation, as opposed to government regulations. I knew this was the wrong way to go, as it let anyone open a shop. Without strict regulations from a governing body, the field became glutted. Now tattooing and body piercing are the domains of 18-25 year old rock star wannabees who make 7-12K/yr. and think they have it made. Nevermind that in the days before the glut I made six times that working a grueling three-day work week.

The point is, if you complain about too many people getting into the biz, if you hate to see illegal aliens taking your jobs away with low-ball bids, then you need to wise up: Pushing for stricter regulations, more oversight and tougher standards can only HELP those who honestly have respect for the trees they work on and want to do the best job possible for them, while making a very good living, one that makes them proud to be in our profession.

FWIW, I read every issue of both ISA and TCIA magazines. They are wellsprings of great, up-to-date information. I also read each issue of ISA's technical mag, and I'm a better arborist for it! When I took the ISA Oak Wilt Specialist training, I was able to discuss details of an article I had read in the ISA technical mag with the author himself, who was one of our lecturers. What a great experience!

You guys out there who want to #$$% and moan about being regulated need to wise up. Learning more, adding more to your knowledge base about the trees we all work on, in order to qualify you and/or your company for mandated certification/accreditation standards, will help you stay ahead of the crowd, and help keep the bums out of our biz!


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## treesquirrel (Jul 14, 2007)

Sunrise Guy said:


> You guys out there who want to #$$% and moan about being regulated need to wise up. Learning more, adding more to your knowledge base about the trees we all work on, in order to qualify you and/or your company for mandated certification/accreditation standards, will help you stay ahead of the crowd, and help keep the bums out of our biz!



My business is primarily delivering what the customer asks for when they decide they want a tree removed. I decline jobs and refer them to more experienced folk if the risks are outside my expertise. I use very sound judgement in assesment of a removal procedure and the safety factors.

I will assert that in my work I have no need of any ruling authority to give me any blessings of any sort. I do not call myself an arborist due to my lack of accredation however I do not consider myself a bum because of it either.

There are lines I will not cross in respect of the recognized authorities such as removals close to electrical lines, or on road right of ways. I'd wager the majority of the "bums" you refer to do not exercise good judgement and would knowingly perform jobs they should leave to the properly authorized companies.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 14, 2007)

treeseer said:


> John I agree with your observations about the lack of focus on their primary mission of educating the public. Do you know what ISA and TCIA are doing now, and have ideas on how can they do a better job of raising tree awareness?



Get involved in a number of home improvement shows on TV. How many time do we see a post here asking why they did it that way?

I saw a This Old House where they were they were limbing up a willow, and brought in an arborist. The professional climber was one handing the saw, and Roger had the home owner cutting limbs with a hardhat but no safety glasses.

One I cannot remember had an old lady with a garden saying "don't be afraid to limb up your trees to let in light" they raped the lower limbs with huge wounds....


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## joesawer (Jul 14, 2007)

I am a certified line clearance tree trimmer, since 93. The certification was incredibly easy. But it makes sure that at least you have been exposed to basic knowledge. 
I do not consider myself an arborist, (I am more of a take down specialist). I cannot compare with some of the people on this site. Before you make personal attacks against some of them consider the wealth of information they freely share here. If I happen on a problem that I don't know anything about I can search this forum and people like Treeseer and John Paul Sanborn and others have pretty much already covered it. Their wealth of knowledge is invaluable. I don't have the time or resources to learn all that they know. 
As for fixing problems with organizations that is fine but please don't make personal attacks against people who have only shown respect and an interest in helping others.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 15, 2007)

treesquirrel said:


> (snip)
> 
> I will assert that in my work I have no need of any ruling authority to give me any blessings of any sort. I do not call myself an arborist due to my lack of accredation however I do not consider myself a bum because of it either.
> 
> There are lines I will not cross in respect of the recognized authorities such as removals close to electrical lines, or on road right of ways. I'd wager the majority of the "bums" you refer to do not exercise good judgement and would knowingly perform jobs they should leave to the properly authorized companies.



I apologize if I led you to think that I believe that all non-certified folks in our business are bums. Rather, I was trying to get across my belief that more rules and regulations in our profession would help keep know-nothings ("bums") from getting into the arboriculture profession where they could hurt the trees and (by underbidding and glutting our field) hurt us. 

I know there are good people out there without certification, but the certification process certainly does increase one's knowledge base. To deny that is ludicrous.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 15, 2007)

joesawer said:


> As for fixing problems with organizations that is fine but please don't make personal attacks against people who have only shown respect and an interest in helping others.



Thanks Joe, we need more of this level headed response.

As for acquisition of knowledge; well you are doing it here, just use the internet a bit more and get a few books to read on the toity (multitasking ). 

I spent nearly 9 years in the Marine Corps and Guy got lost in Haight-Ashbury for a number of years, so neither of us started this quest at an early age.

What started it for me was I fell into a position that had me doing tree work full time after years of part time and stop-gap work. I was supposed to just be a seasonal grounder, but found myself running the crew in a few months. So I went to the library and got P.P. Pirone's "Tree Maintenance" by P. P. Pirone (Author), Thomas P. Pirone (Author), J. R. Hartman (Author), M. A. Sall (Author) 

That was in the early-mid 90's.


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## Pancake (Jul 15, 2007)

Putting more thought into this discussion I looked at other professions. Roofers, plumbers, electricians etc all seem to have their share of "fly by nighters". Maybe it is their way to live the American dream of owning their own business. There is still however, a large group of people who desire the job to be done right by qualified people. Maybe the root word for accredation is credible? We are dealing with living organisms the same as doctors. Would you trust someone who can sew a mean sweater to stitch your arm up? Of coarse not, you want a highly skilled and qualified person doing the job. I don't the mind yahoos or even people who have been doing tree work for some time (albiet the wrong way). It used to discourage me. Now I look at it as an educational opportunity for both them and the customers. We are in a period of rapid advancement for this industry- this discussion is an indicator of the growing pains we are all feeling. The bottom line is that I want what's best for trees, customers, and the Profit and Loss statement for my family. If you feel the Industry Oranizations are the wrong way- don't join them. Remember you are not required to keep pace with new techniques or even learn the latest safety protocols.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 15, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Belonging to the Industry Organizations has nothing to do with keeping pace with new techniques or leaning the latest safty protocols.
> 
> The market is so flooded with 'know very little' Certified Arborist that the designation is almost useless today. After 17 years with my CA I've considered dropping out.



I strongly disagree with you. There is so much to learn in our profession right now, and more being discovered each day. ISA and TCIA both do a great job at getting information out there in their publications and workshops. To be a member helps one gain easier access to this information and gives a sense of "belonging" which encourages one to keep up to date. True, you can read both magazines online without being a member, but again, I believe membership encourages one's quest for knowledge. As for "know very little" CA's, how exactly do they pass the test without knowing much? I took the test last October, FWIW, and I certainly learned a good deal while I was studying for it. Along those lines, getting CEU's, a necessity to maintain certification, also teaches one new things. While I've been in the trees for a good while, my knowledge base took a huge step up when I got on the certification track. Also, my income ramped up as people sought me out because of my new credentials. You want to drop your CA, sure, go right ahead. Problem is, if regulation of our industry from above (pun?) becomes a reality, as I hope it will, you may have to sit for the CA exam again. You'll have no problem passing it, I'm sure, but why have to go through it again, needlessly?


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## beowulf343 (Jul 15, 2007)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I worked hard to get my degree, get my CA, get my applicator's license. I will continue to learn more, study more, and get more certificates when called on to do so.



The problem is too many ca's get the letters behind their name and think they are now top dogs in the tree world and don't need to learn anything more or listen to anybody else. To put it bluntly, i've run across too many young ca's who are know it all punks yet have done so little tree work it is almost laughable.

Not saying all ca's are this way because i have worked with some that really know their stuff-but sadly they seem few and far between.


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## jonseredbred (Jul 15, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> To put it bluntly, i've run across too many ca's who are know it all punks yet have done so little tree work it is almost laughable



I agree totally. I dont know if its because of the part of the country we are in or what, but _most_ of the CA's around here are ultra political and really bad tree guys.


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## John464 (Jul 15, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Remember you are not required to keep pace with new techniques or even learn the latest safety protocols.



Do you really think that if the ISA doesn't list a technique then we as arborists are doing something wrong? They are a private organization whose findings try to represent an entire industry as a whole. They do provide mostly truth in this. However, when we have trees that adapt in different soils, temps, water tables, etc. That same species tree will react differently to methods they lay down because of the variances we have across the map. A poster above pointed out that we are like doctors of living nature. If we as doctors were to only open up a book and say I must follow the protocol and disregard our best judgement based on the particular individual needs of a unique situation then we may not handle the matter correctly. This also would not allow for new discovery and progession in the field. 

We have been caring for some of the same trees for 47 yrs. I have seen how trees react based on our own documentation and discoverings in NJ PA and DE. My research and expertise I would not apply to say California because that is not what I have studied. I do not need an organization to regulate my own strategy based on what I know works in my area. Yes we as a company are consistantly improving applications and learning, by being amongst trees every day. Being certified is a good step in learning, but it should never be looked at as because someone is certified they know more than the next guy. That's becoming a bad stereo type and is the reason the ISA has a bunch of newbies who can't even tie a knot become certified. They want to get a name tag as a "certified arborist" so they can happily jump right into that stereo type and tell clients they know what they are doing. The term certified arborist is being used as a selling tool and sometimes after the fact the job is in progress ISA standards aren't followed. Why is the ISA letting these guys do this? Is it because they studied for a few weeks for a test and passed/forgotten what they have "learned" or was it because they have practiced correct techniques for years and shown they really care? They paid their dues(pun inteneded).



Think how easy it is to drive a car. You need to demonstrate on a real paved road with real traffic lights and real passing cars before they allow to drive. The ISA allows you to say you are an arborist and can be an arborist without demonstrating squat! You could of became an arborist in a classroom in Arizona with nothing but cactus for miles and never even seen a decidous tree in your life, but ya you studied hard and checked the correct answers so you are now I proclaim you a "certified arborist" You must be better than the next guy.

Can someone here post the ISA and TCIA financials since it seems they are publically available? For a non profit group they sure do have one heck of an advertising campaign primarily targeted at those who may feel the need to cut them a check


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 15, 2007)

Actually I do not think they are active enough in the public view. I would like to see them become educators of the public.

The biggest problem with the argument above, "this is what I see" is that it it is anecdotal. If the practitioner takes anecdotal evidence and applies it to ongoing study of the science done by others, then that is a good thing. If one spends 47 years doing what one does in isolation then that is not good for the trees or the clientel.

Yes there are people who abuse the ISA/CA thing. I have not gone for it because I've not really needed it to sell myself to prospective clients. Having a home owner call a service with one on staff is better for them then one that does not, at least from a statistical sense, though a concerned consumer should be able to rule out "Jacks Tree Trimming and Roof Taring".


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## lxt (Jul 15, 2007)

wonderful posts guys & good opinions!! Look I think being a certified arborist can be a good thing, & no to jprarbor04`s comment I can pass the test I just dont care to take it(seems very unionlike & political) sorry!!! 

jprarbor04- you never answered the question of how long you`ve been in the tree world, your a forestry worker for god sake!! give tours to the kindergarten kids tellin em which tree is which, when that slows down go spray the poison ivy off the walkin path, Certified is good I agree however dont cheapen the cert. & create new BS. the reason for this post was to show that now certified dont mean anything. accredited does!!!(maybe)

there will always be hacks in this industry & arrogant knowitall forestry workers. I ask you this why is it when any young guy here wants to learn this trade they search out the old timers? wasnt no ISA/TCIA in the 60`s, 70`s or part of the 80`s and the industry did fine!!!

MY theory: college professors in horticulture & tree biology, etc... ran out of students(look at the curiculums& how it has changed) so ole PHD Phil & other colleagues start lobbying for justice, create wonderful money grubbin organizations to get back their dignity Wahla ISA/TCIA.

what I got from that article was; get rid of the small guy by way of creating certs & other such, he wont be able to keep up with it all, take his american right(whether you like it or not) to free enterprise through regulation!! PLAIN WRONG! MY RIGHTS outway any BS. lobbyin organization!! Sorry.

LXT.............


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2007)

lxt said:


> wonderful posts guys & good opinions!! I can pass the test I just dont care to take it(seems very unionlike & political) sorry!!!


If I had a nickel for every time I heard that...


> MY theory: college professors in horticulture & tree biology, etc... ran out of students(look at the curiculums& how it has changed) so ole PHD Phil & other colleagues start lobbying for justice, create wonderful money grubbin organizations to get back their dignity Wahla ISA/TCIA.


This is whack. ISA grew out of the Shade Tree org, and NAA/TCIA has been around a long while. ISA has always had a healthy influence from university researchers, NAA much less so. You are lumping orgs together without much knowledge about them.


> what I got from that article was; get rid of the small guy by way of creating certs & other such, he wont be able to keep up with it all, take his american right(whether you like it or not) to free enterprise through regulation!! PLAIN WRONG! MY RIGHTS outway any BS. lobbyin organization!! Sorry.


I got this from the article--show companies the way to rise above the underthetable underinsured underinformed companies(no I'm not judging any postes here, just a generalization that cities will understandably make. If you have the insurance and the knowhow you can document it without being accredited), spending more on training their staff and keeping them safe. fwiw you still have the right to free enterprise. the small guy can attain certs, and the small compaies can document their safety and training to compete on a level field with the bigs.

Re public education, the ISA just spent money to redo this excellent resource http://www.treesaregood.org/ which is why I put it into my sig here. They also spent a lot on a member survey to 20,000 members, and 19,000+ did not bother to return it, then wonder why they are underrepresented  . Aside from getting on tv more, what do you suggest they do?

TreeCo Dan if you are not getting enough out of your CA you are not putting enough into it. I just did a 3-hour tour/consult of a gorgeous estate whose owner ok'd 6 crew/days of work this summer and will be a lifelong client. Very pleasant and lucrative work. They found me on the ISA site, which is where they went to find someone qualified (not asca or anywhere else).


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## lxt (Jul 15, 2007)

treeseer, I`ll send you your nickel!!! the test is no harder than any other test Ive taken(ACRT, LCTT, Dept of Agriculture core exams,etc...) study an anyone can pass!! not sayin you wont have to take 2-3 times but its a test not real life!!!(this is where it counts)

secondly, you my man need to check your facts, ISA grew outta what? so all the venture capitalist who hug trees, bugs,animals & bacteria in a turd had nothin to do with it uhh? better research your employer!!

I guess the section in the article about gettin $70,000.00 more a year is OK? its ok if your a certified accredited tree company uhh? bring us your book smart & they will bring the the noncertified talent that will be doing the work!!! 

and how much should Dan from treeco put into his ISA cert. arborist credentials MMmmm.. couple more $200 videos, some $100 books, some $1000.00 seminars.......... for what? to be ISA/TCIA proud?

treeseer...........keep givin em your money, cause what I save without their certs. I`ll put into my house, car, Harley, childs college etc... 

Free Enterprise doesnt mean I have to follow!! thats why its called america.
My company is legit, but if I do a job for cash & pay cash oh well. guess you never did this(if I had a nickel...) bottom line is who do these organizations think they are to impose regulations on someones livelyhood by thinkin their way is better?

LXT...........


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## RedlineIt (Jul 15, 2007)

*If I ran the ISA...*

...and I wanted to educate the public as to the benefit of hiring an ISA qualified arborist, I would look no further than television and some of the bogus representations our industry gets on TV.

There have been topics here dissing the television shows on Home and Garden TV, This Old House, Dirty Jobs on SpikeTV, and rightly so. A lot of these shows feature poor and unsafe practices.

Additionally, there are logger sports still on TV. Sponsored by chainsaw companies, you can watch spar climbing competitions, axe throwing, one and two person crosscut handsaw races, axe work you can barely believe, and of course, the chainsaw classes. There is a local competition that I attend, women's log birling is not to be missed. Great fun.

So what about us? The ISA climbers? We have climbing competitions. I got eliminated early in the last PNW comp, and frankly I never expected that I could win, place or show, the competition was just too strong.

But what if we put a man in the tree with a camera, catching the skill of the competition, what if we presented the competition as representation of how skilled climber can negotiate any tree without undue stress or damage.

The climbing comps I've been to would have made great TV, "Oh he's lost his handsaw, he's out after a great climb." "What he's planning here is a bit of risk, but No, he's made it!" "Well done, I say, that sets the standard."

It would make great TV, following the winners from the various regions to the world finals. 

And if the ISA would do that, it might not only get their name recognized beyond their membership, it might raise public awareness, and if they market the program properly, make a profit.

I, for one, am tired of seeing nothing for my membership other than my membership. A junior member may see the CEU's as a way to keep current, but when it's all old hat, and the same thing is offered for CEU's again and again, nothing fresh, it's time to want more.

I want the ISA to make some impression on the public, it was part of their original mission, but it has become lost. I'm tired of paying membership for nothing more than a chance to repay for my membership.

Get the word out ISA, buy an ad or make a show, do something!

No one, NO ONE, knows what the ISA is until they run into a problem with their trees. Why is this?

Because the ISA has zero public profile.

This should change.

How?

I have ideas, have presented one.


What say you?




RedlineIt


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## lxt (Jul 15, 2007)

redlineit, I think that would work, I highly agree about the ceu`s thing, you might have something here!!! some might think im knockin knowledge, Im not I just want it to be ran properly without the lobbyin BS. If the organization would help its members not through Govt. rules and such, but like you said promote themselves publicly somehow!! this would help.


LXT.........


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## jonseredbred (Jul 15, 2007)

Great post RedlineIt !! you hit the mark.

Up here in Western Ny, no one knows what the ISA is except member's.

Let me guess, I am supposed to spend a large chunk of my business' advertising to push the ISA locally?


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2007)

Great idea on the videocam in a tree; I will bring mine to St. louis next year. Anyone going to hawaii want to take that on?

re the $70,000 extra (page 66 middle bottom), the companies that did not meet the city's safety standards can invest more in safety training and meet the criteria in time for the next bid cycle. If yours was the only company that met the criteria and thus did the contract for $70,000 more than the next bidder, I do not think you would be complaining.

Re TreeCo's lack of input, I was talking about energy and involvement, not money. Dan and I have together in person bemoaned the downward slide in the meaning and value of certification in the 15 years since we got it. I know we can make more of a difference by getting more involved than not.

re free enterprise, no one can make a CA buy anything. I chose to purchase every book my non-employer ISA sells because they make me more valuable to my clients, who pay me more for my knowledge than my sweat (though I am glad to give both). I can keep the master, utility and muni certs and not spend a nickel on products or even on conferences. Many ways to skin the CEU cat.

Both orgs have a lot of room for improvement, but the industry is better off with them than without them.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 15, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I just did a search by county and I'm not there either.
> 
> It looks like the old 'search for a certified arborist by zip code' is gone and is now replaced by 'verify a certification number'. I wonder how people are supposed to find us like that?
> 
> ...



What is the problem? I ask that with all due respect. You can search by location, zip, certificate number and Last Name. Man, come on! 

http://www.isa-arbor.com/findArborist/findarborist.aspx


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Thank you.
> 
> You are right! I was at the ISA's 'Trees are Good' site by mistake. It's the first hits when doing a google search for the International Society of Arboriculture
> 
> http://www.treesaregood.org/findtreeservices/FindTreeCareService.aspx


Why would treesaregood come up first? Ads there are free for now but will cost later. I'd hate to see a paid listing eclipse the free listing for certified arborists. If this is the case I will join lxt in ranting about bs cash-grabbing tactics (much as i hate to feed that fire  ).

But I repeat the only way this kind of stuff will change is members speaking out to the org, and over 19,000 were mute on the last survey. Ranting here does zilch.


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## lxt (Jul 15, 2007)

treeseer, dont take it as ranting if anything what I was trying to say is now even arborist cert. doesnt mean anything in a city with a municipal arborist program, an accredited company that has all the papers so to speak gets first preference.

Look I get upset because!! ok im gonna finally take the arborist test so some of the towns,cities in my area will hand me some work ontop of gaining some knowledge through fellowship with others who take the work serious(not meaning you have to be certified, im not & im serious about the trade) then I read that article & it just seemed like you might as well throw your cert. out the window. I hope Im reading it wrong!!!

treeseer you seem very knowledgeable, ive read your posts, I am not certified but many in my area who are;respect my opinion & in some cases refer me to do work (I was just interviewed by the local newspaper regarding the emerald ash borer because most arborists here dont know anything about it, so they refered to me!! go figure uhh) 

LXT........


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## treesquirrel (Jul 15, 2007)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I apologize if I led you to think that I believe that all non-certified folks in our business are bums. Rather, I was trying to get across my belief that more rules and regulations in our profession would help keep know-nothings ("bums") from getting into the arboriculture profession where they could hurt the trees and (by underbidding and glutting our field) hurt us.
> 
> I know there are good people out there without certification, but the certification process certainly does increase one's knowledge base. To deny that is ludicrous.




No worries friend. I know you are not painting everyone with one brushstroke and I appreciate your contributions. Like I said, I refer jobs that do require knowledge or skills I do not have yet to the Trained pro's.

Regardles of whetehr it is school or books or even here on this site, I learn every day of my life. I will work towards certification and plan to sign myself and my partner up for the Arbormaster courses this fall in Ashville, NC.


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## Pancake (Jul 15, 2007)

I look at it as a part of doing business. No, I do not walk lock step with every move they make, and I do believe in field judgement over book learnin' in many cases. However, they (the organizations in question) do provide a good foundation to the learning process. I see memberships and involvement as another tool to say I care enough to be a part of the established industry organizations. I am also a member of several local level tree boards and forestry councils. It is just another step in the learning process- after all it is the "practice" of arboriculture. Unfortunately as with most non profits- it is all about the money.


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## John464 (Jul 15, 2007)

treeseer said:


> But I repeat the only way this kind of stuff will change is members speaking out to the org, and over 19,000 were mute on the last survey. Ranting here does zilch.




ok, so why don't you point this thread and a few others out to them? they should have a representative on each tree message board responding to our industry's concern. Unless I'm mistaken and you are their rep? Member of the ISA or not, many care about the positive and negative impact they are creating, have created, and future outlook they have on the horizon. They need to get back to their original mission statement. If they were more active amongst the public(non member arborists, tree guys, tree hacks, etc) they would have more support and most importantly more education! 

I'd like to support a cause that I believe is better for our industry, but at this time I can't support an organization that focuses primarily on finding more ways to a earn a profit and deems anyone a certified arborist solely based on how well their short term memory is.


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## clearance (Jul 15, 2007)

John464 said:


> and deems anyone a certified arborist solely based on how well their short term memory is.



Awesome, couldn't have said it any better. There is room for all, wish that those who have never climbed or run a saw much would not tell people how to work.


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2007)

John464 said:


> They need to get back to their original mission statement. If they were more active amongst the public(non member arborists, tree guys, tree hacks, etc) they would have more support and most importantly more education! I'd like to support a cause that I believe is better for our industry, but at this time I can't support an organization that focuses primarily on finding more ways to a earn a profit


Totally agree the focus should change: "Through research, technology, and education promote the professional
practice of arboriculture and foster a greater public awareness of the
benefits of trees."
The best way that this mission can get refocused is for members to get involved.  btw I am only a member--one of 20,000. I represent myself, that is all.


> and deems anyone a certified arborist solely based on how well their short term memory is.


Not solely, there is an experience requirement. Memory is retaining knowledge, so it's a tool worth developing. I share the concerns about standards of certification--especially ceu's-- weakening just to keep the numbers up. As for members' hypocrisy, I have enough to deal with when I look in the mirror.


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## Ekka (Jul 16, 2007)

It's a shame that for USA arborists their qualifications have to be earned or deemed worthwhile from some private source such as ISA.

Thankfully Europe, Australia, New Zealand that I know of have some consistency and uniformity in their qualifications ... and whether or not you belong to some private org should have little influence on what you know.

I see some of you want to do the Arbormaster training, others get degrees in foresty etc yet some ISA cert holds the flag for tree work.  

When a private organisation has the industry by the balls then you need to moan. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2007)

*TreeCo--CA Listing*

I went to the treesaregood site and saw only bartlett guys. I thought I'd sent in my info before--highly recommended for all CA's. Here is the reply I got from ISA-- 

"Thank you for your e-mail. What your going to need to do in
order to list yourself on that website is login under you user name and
password on the ISA website under members only. Then click on Edit find
a Tree Care Service Information. Once your in this click on Add/Edit a
Tree Care Service. Enter in your services then submit them and you
should be listed on that website.


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## John464 (Jul 16, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Not solely, there is an experience requirement. Memory is retaining knowledge, so it's a tool worth developing. I share the concerns about standards of certification--especially ceu's-- weakening just to keep the numbers up. As for members' hypocrisy, I have enough to deal with when I look in the mirror.



experience requirement as what? just because a person works for a tree or landscaping outfit they are considered eligible? They could be in the shop all day and doing maintenance on the equipment. Or just doing sales. 

An arborist is experienced through hands on work amongst trees. Long as the applicant lists they are experienced the ISA allows the applicant to proceded with testing. From what I understand there is no background check, they take the applicants word for it?

In my opinion there is no real life arborist/tree guy experience really required. What is really required is that you demonstrate short term memory and you sign issue them a check. That makes someone not only an arborist, but a certified arborist?

cer·ti·fy(sûrt-f)
v. cer·ti·fied, cer·ti·fy·ing, cer·ti·fies 
v.tr.
1. 
a. To confirm formally as true, accurate, or genuine.
b. To guarantee as meeting a standard: butter that was certified Grade A. See Synonyms at approve.

From what I can see the test itself does not confirm the applicants ability to perform accuracy in arboriculture in the tree itself. Perhaps provide a description of the remedy with two feet on the ground, but can they complete the remedy themself? There are some who can't and that is why I don't understand why the term certified arborist is becoming regarding as a highly qualified.


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## jonseredbred (Jul 16, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Guy,
> 
> I talked to the ISA on the phone this morning.
> 
> ...




Exactly. You nailed it.


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2007)

jonseredbred said:


> Exactly. You nailed it.


I don't know when the year is up, but it seems very wrong to me too. :bang: The question is, how many CA's will speak up on surveys and to their chapter reps etc so they are heard, and how many will just complain on forums and in taverns?

Anyway, one bad policy does not mean the entire organization is no good; it just means we need to change it.  

The old debate over handson vs. non is :deadhorse: If you were in a wheelchair you might not be yelling that only climbers are arborists.


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I won't be referring people to 'Trees are Good' until this gets settled.


How ya like my sig now?:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Dadatwins (Jul 16, 2007)

I used my free year for the trees are good site and got a few calls for service. I am in my paid year now and have received no calls yet this year with customers referencing that site. I will write off the 150.00 as a tax deduction towards advertising. I will probably not renew it again. I don't understand why the main ISA site list CA for free, yet the treesaregood site charges. I did complain and was told about the benefits of additional exposure, and the low cost blah, blah ,blah. I get more referals from my local extension office, that uses the main ISA site as a reference point. I have no intention of dropping the CA, cost more to get it back, I can write off the $125.00 and a few trips a year to the conferences and classes are good learning experience.


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## Dadatwins (Jul 16, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I had no idea the Trees are Good site has been doing for over a year.
> 
> How did you find out about it over a year ago?



Info was sent from MAC-ISA office.


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## treeseer (Jul 17, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Info was sent from MAC-ISA office.


Hey Dan maybe time to redo the math--add chapter membership so you can learn about stuff like the listing...:biggrinbounce2: 

Dada I got a call yesterday from an extension referral too. Websites and local folks look like the way to go; the intl listing will be dominated by the big company employees, none of whom pay with their own money to get on there.


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## Ekka (Jul 17, 2007)

What's this all about?

http://www.georgiaarborist.org/index.htm

What you have to think is what is the average Joe going to search? What is he going to type into that search bar on google? Does he know what an arborist is? What ISA or treesaregood is?

Here they would type in *tree lopping brisbane* and if you wanted to be politically correct and have a site that said Certified Arborist Brisbane you'd get no enquiries.


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## treeseer (Jul 17, 2007)

Ekka said:


> What's this all about?
> 
> http://www.georgiaarborist.org/index.htm .


eric that is the state arborists org; their listings are free to members which is only right.

if someone searches "georgia arborist" they may find it. "arborist' is a common word here; we are a Little beyone "lopper"

the gaa seems pretty active; some members worked to put on a volunteer workday that was a good experience.

I'd like to see a state org here in nc; maybe next year if there is an active arborist as state director.:help:


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## treeseer (Jul 17, 2007)

*treesaregood listing*

I just got listed. I did not show before because i did not list separate services. Every CA should do this!

Right now they are not charging, and there are no definite plans to. If they hear from members that charging $150/year is a BAD idea, that is bound to change. If no one says anything...umpkin2:


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## BonsaiJedi (Jul 17, 2007)

The two biggest areas I would like to see our two organizations focus on (that they currently are not):

1. Public awareness of our profession. The national association of realtors is running ads on radio and tv that just talk about why its important to hire a professional to sell your house. I would love to see tcia or isa doing similar ads telling homeowners why it is important to get pros for their trees. I can't tell you how many of my friends ask me what an arborist is! That's terrible. No wonder it is so easy for the typical "fly by night"-ers to find work.

2. Third party evaluations of marketing claims made by companies selling into our industry. Too many folks believe EPA labeling is proof of efficacy. In fact the EPA only evaluates the environmental and health aspects of the products for approval, not whether or not it actually works. There are all sorts of products labeled for disease and insect control with absolutely no peer reviewed scientific data behind it but how would the practicing arborist ever know? Most assume the target organism is on the label, must work. As a guy selling products to arborists I get calls all the time from tree guys who tried a product to treat something only to find it didn't work despite being labeled for it. They look bad, the tree care profession looks bad, and most importantly, our patient, the tree, did not get the help we sought. In the medical world the AMA is a non-gov't industry organization that puts a stamp of approval on devices and drugs seperate from FDA approval. I'd like to see us demand the same standards.

I like the passion displayed in this thread. Shows the  !


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## treeseer (Jul 17, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Day two and no call back from the ISA.
> 
> Maybe I should call again. No time today though, I've got trees to look at!


dan if you want to have a philosophical harangue you'll wait a long time. if you want to get listed call x 240 and you will receive polite and efficient help.

no time for more--i gotta go look at trees, and I'm getting paid for it! :censored:


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## Ekka (Jul 18, 2007)

Heck, if you can get free listings, ISA GAA etc get to it man.

Treeseer,

The media continually reinforce, in print, radio and TV the terminolgy "tree lopper". For change to take place ISAAC needs to lobby the media council of Australia.

I have tried but it's harder than convincing you to cut a tree down that's hazardous.


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## treeseer (Jul 18, 2007)

Ekka said:


> I have tried but it's harder than convincing you to cut a tree down that's hazardous.


You're a hoot eric.:jester: 

'hazardous' means having an unacceptable risk level, and there are many other ways to lower risk as you know. Removal being the last resort.


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## Ekka (Jul 19, 2007)

Spent some time with a customer who showed me pics of the expensive underpinning that went on in his house.

they took pics of fine gum tree roots near the house and the house subsided.

Cost the customer a lot of money to underpin the house and the builder had no hesitation at all in condemning the neighbours gum tree.

Trees gone now, client threatened litigation for the $10k+ underpinning.

In that instance a stump is safest.  

There's more to hazards than what is wrong with the tree, it can also be what the tree is doing by simply being there.


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## Bermie (Jul 19, 2007)

*why did I join ISA, TCIA?*

Whew what a read!!!
I joined ISA last year and TCIA just last month...why????

I live in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, no climbing comps, no seminars, no chapter GTG's, membership in professional organizations is a lifeline to those of us on the fringes. I look forward to getting the magazines, I can't download them off the net with my dialup...having something to read and refer to is invaluable. Any discount on books and materials is great, can't get them here so have to order them from away.
Yes, some material does not apply, parochial US issues for example, but reading around subjects, learning what others are doing all adds to the greater experience.

However, on certification I do agree with Eric, the UK, Australia and New Zealand are better served by National Certification, by standard setting across the board, by requiring minimum PRACTICAL certification to get insured as tree workers. 

When researching which certifications to offer here, the UK based NPTC/City & Guilds was the winner. it is quality controlled, constantly reviewed and updated ANNUALLY by some of the best practicing arborists in the UK. 
There will always be those who have a moan at 'jobs for the boys' with the network of assessors and verifiers, but in the end it is a minimum standard that can be relied on. If you can't DO the work you don't get a ticket. 

Almost completely opposite to the US issues, however, if you ONLY do your NPTC tickets and then set yourself up as a tree surgeon, you are missing a big chunk of theoretical knowledge as theory is part of the underpinning knowledge but not in great depth...so there are ALWAYS two sides to learning, practical application and theory, finding the balance is key.

I will probably take the ISA exam at some point, in my opinion a range of certification is good, I think the problems come when one relies solely on one organization's credentials, especially if that credential is lop sided towards theoretical or applied knowledge. 
It seems to me that an ISA certified arborist should have to take the tree climber specialist as a prerequisite....if equal access due to disability or some other such is not feasable, then the CA designation should have a rider of some sort.

We have NO regulations here for who can do what to trees, by my offering certificated training and assessment at least those who choose to take it are making themselves safer and better informed.


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## treeseer (Jul 19, 2007)

Bermie said:


> It seems to me that an ISA certified arborist should have to take the tree climber specialist as a prerequisite....if equal access due to disability or some other such is not feasable, then the CA designation should have a rider of some sort. :


Hey Fiona I think this makes sense. It would prove practical experience and qualification.

Dan since CA covers some risk and safety issues I see no problem with contracts requiing one. But I would much rather see ANSI compliance required, and staff qualified to enforce that!

O and eric if a builder can condemn a neighbor's tree you truly do live in Oz! Who did he call, the wizard or the tin man or toto?


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## clearance (Jul 19, 2007)

Bermie said:


> It seems to me that an ISA certified arborist should have to take the tree climber specialist as a prerequisite....if equal access due to disability or some other such is not feasable, then the CA designation should have a rider of some sort.



This is good, I agree. How about "working arborist" and "consulting arborist". Now Treeseer, are you ever going to do something about what I have asked you in the recent past, and that is why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA? Seeing as pretty near ever tree that is climbed for them is climbed with spurs. Or are you going to carry on, talking the talk but not walking the walk? The ISA just wants money, bottom line, spurs on trims, cardinal sin and all, no? Pathetic. Maybe you will do something about it, it would suprise me, but at least answer me.


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## Ekka (Jul 20, 2007)

treeseer said:


> O and eric if a builder can condemn a neighbor's tree you truly do live in Oz! Who did he call, the wizard or the tin man or toto?



Gees Guy, you really need to get your head out of Uncle Sam's azz more often and see a bigger picture.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeseer (Jul 20, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Gees Guy, you really need to get your head out of Uncle Sam's azz more often and see a bigger picture.:hmm3grin2orange:


Great idea, eric. Meantime, where and how in the world can a builder condemn a neighbor's tree?

Would you want your property condemned  by some random hack working next door?

o and cleance, 1. the company is not a member, individuals are, and 2. I am one member with no more power than the other 19,999. If you want to wage jihad against spiking hypocrites then try closer to home with the isa-pnw chapter maybe, or go to your province utilities commission.


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## Ekka (Jul 21, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Great idea, eric. Meantime, where and how in the world can a builder condemn a neighbor's tree?



Ahh, you are such a good sport. I have to poke and provoke you to get you to ask the magic question.

However, rather than lay it on the table so you dont have to think it's much better when you discover things for yourself, that's also the way adult learning takes place.

So, think about. How can a builder condemn a neighbours tree.

Let me know what you find out, it's history where I am.

I'll give you a hint. Look for building standards pertaining to trees nearby and not nearby to houses. :biggrinbounce2:


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## treeseer (Jul 21, 2007)

Ekka said:


> rather than lay it on the table so you dont have to think it's much better when you discover things for yourself, ...Look for building standards pertaining to trees nearby and not nearby to houses. :biggrinbounce2:


We have some case law on that here too. There are building standards and there are tree standards and property rights both ways, may the best case and advocate win.

The trees often lose when their advcates don't present as strong a case as the arborphobes. Old news.


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## Ekka (Jul 21, 2007)

Oh, old news now that you had it spelt out huh. :monkey: 

Tell me, what standards, if any, are there regarding the style of foundation dependant on trees in your neck of the woods?

And what if the neighbour since the house being built has allowed a large tree to grow nearby?

You can argue all you want for the tree but when there's engineering standards showing point blank that trees within certain distances pose threats to subsidence then it's a pretty shut case.

In some cases even significant protected trees have been cut down due to these rules. And I suppose if you were so instant to keep your tree (as some neighbours do) you'd be more than happy to part with the costs of upkeeping the houses that it affects.


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## treeseer (Jul 21, 2007)

It's some weird quirk of british law or the culture of building-worship that has brought this whole subsidence thing to the arborphobic bugaboo it has become. We have similar soils in places, but no fanaticarborcide based on subsidence here that I know of.

you can argue all you want for building standards but there are tree standards too. Root pruning in cases where encroachment is successfully argued is a simpler solution than folks think, speading of bugaboos...


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## Ekka (Jul 22, 2007)

bugaboos, I like that.  

Did you know that 50% of houses in Melbourne alone are structural cracked.

Big bugaboos.


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## treeseer (Jul 22, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Did you know that 50% of houses in Melbourne alone are structural cracked.
> 
> Big bugaboos.



So waddya gonna do, clearcut Melbourne? Simplistic solution; the horse is in the next pasture and the barn door swings closed. How many of those cracks are caused by trees? Few. How many will be healed by cutting the tree? None. 

And where did that stat come from, let me guess, some (re)building trades organization--and hey you know you can't trust organizations, right? :monkey: 

Yeah bugaboo is a fun word; comes from celtic for 'devil', an object of fear.


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## Ekka (Jul 22, 2007)

treeseer said:


> So waddya gonna do, clearcut Melbourne? Simplistic solution; the horse is in the next pasture and the barn door swings closed.



What is wrong with you? Rather antagonistic!



treeseer said:


> How many of those cracks are caused by trees? Few. How many will be healed by cutting the tree? None.



Crikey, whatever magical orb device you have please send it over, save a lot of people a lot of work with that one. Engineers and Geotechnicians who have gathered data and made standards can just use Guy M's magical orb.



treeseer said:


> And where did that stat come from, let me guess, some (re)building trades organization--and hey you know you can't trust organizations, right? :monkey:



Imagine that, every builder MUST be licenced and registered with BSA, works often have to be approved by council, many regulations, many specialist degreed professionals ... totally unlike the tree business where an expert passes a 2 hour test and is certified, sits an open book exam as is now a consultant. :hmm3grin2orange: 



treeseer said:


> Yeah bugaboo is a fun word; comes from celtic for 'devil', an object of fear.



There's managemnet of tree roots, liability issues, and people facing bills of up to $81k for underpinning houses. They cannot afford that, they cannot sell the house. Engineers reports with soil analysis says clear all trees within 6m of building, that's the cheapest part, or install root barrier (can be costly and difficult in some locations plus doesn't last forever).

And how would you feel being told that and it aint even your tree!

Yes, problems are exacerbated by drought, trees are part of the problem but a part that can be controlled.


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## treeseer (Jul 22, 2007)

No trees within 20' of building? Horsespit. That would not fly here at all. I've seen some engineering justifications for this from the uk and they were flimsy in their efforts to blame the trees. 

Anyhoo, just to report that since I got listed at the treesaregood.com site where CA's can sign up--except those in NC, I'll keep splitting the work here with bartlett.:biggrinbounce2: --I got 2 nice jobs with huge trees for welltodo clients.

Both told me that they checked my website--not updated in 5 years--and hired me based on that and cert.


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## Lumberjacked (Jul 25, 2007)

I am definitely sending ISA an email/phone call. I have felt that they should do more for us in the publics eye for a while but never really voiced my opinion...guess its time! 

Just yesterday a friend of mine told me that she was taking her CA test, only she is a Landscape Architect and has NEVER done anything tree care related except maybe an ID course in college. Being a friend of mine I really didnt say much but that really pissed me off knowing that her credentials will soon be equal to mine. I took my test to let customers know that I care more about the health and care of their trees more then just making $$$. People like my friend are taking their tests just to bull s*** customers into believing that they are qualified to make tree care decisions. Now dont get me wrong I used the education route to take my ISA test but I had also been running a full time tree care company all 5 years of school. I do have a BS degree in Forest Resource Management not drawing. Just my $.02

Something needs to change though!


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## Ekka (Jul 25, 2007)

Degree qualified Landscape Architects here are the same, only do a 20 tree ID module and that's it.

Yet they carve up tree roots, plant trees in spots a mouse would struggle to live in and seldom consider the mature tree size.

If they can sit an ISA test atleast that's a step in the right direction and they'd have more knowledge than the little they already have about trees.

However, they're not on an equal footing with that qualification here as our qualified arborists, THANK GOODNESS!


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 25, 2007)

just applied for a different job at a local municipality around my neck of the woods to be their CA for the city,,,one of the many requirements are Certification,,,going over their tree preservation laws,,,i only wish more cities were like this one,,,they are very protective of their trees within city limits


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## Ekka (Jul 26, 2007)

Good luck on your job prospects, never stop learning.


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## treeseer (Jul 26, 2007)

jrparbor04 said:


> just applied for a different job at a local municipality around my neck of the woods to be their CA for the city,,,one of the many requirements are Certification,,,going over their tree preservation laws,,,i only wish more cities were like this one,,,they are very protective of their trees within city limits


jp, you may find that they talk the talk quite loudly in their ordinances and pr, but crawl the walk when it comes to enforcement.

re TCIA, here is the brochure for this year's expo. I really miss being at isa this year so i'm getting psyched early for expo. Still some tough choices in the afternoon for arbo's, but not as bad as last year. I'm glad I took the morning slot.

http://www.treecareindustry.org/PDFs/Expo07_brochure.pdf


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 26, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Good luck on your job prospects, never stop learning.


ill never stop learning in arboriculture,,,hopefully i get the city Arborist position and actually see if they do enforce those tree preservation ordinances!!!

next step for me is a Municipal Arborist certification


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## oldugly (Jul 28, 2007)

The only time the ISA or even our local chapter has any concern at all for public education is when it is paid for by its local members. Case in point...
I recently ran a booth at two buisness expos, and home and garden shows. I called the ISA, (of which I am a recent member) and the MSA, (which I recently joined) asking them to send literature, or possibly even represent them somehow. I recently became certified and joined these organizations because I believe in trying to better this industry, (which I have participated in for 30 years, and have enjoyed the benefits of). 
I was given over to sales which offered to sell me brochures, and posters, and coloring books. So I found out the ISA will definitely put their money where their mouth is...AS LONG AS IT COMES FROM MY POCKET
I recently became a certified arborist (left uncapitalized by intention)
Did it make me a better tree trimmer.....no.
Did it make me more knowledgable.....only in aspects of tree care I will never use
Did it bring me more business....Actually I think the clientelle here see the ca behind my name and imediately think I am too high priced...I get less calls instead of more.
Did it "inspire" me to do more spikeless climbing...not really I have been leaning towards that area for years, and have found many ways to ascend a tree without spikes in trimming situations
Do I suddenly think spikes are the greatest evil in the world...definitely not
Do I see any benefits from my ca or my membership to ISA, or MSA (the local chapter) yes...I got invited to a picnic...(after of course I spend 400.00 on a seminar), and I got invited to Hawaii, ..(During my busiest season, and of course after I pay my own way there and back and hotel rooms).
and I get a magazine every month...which tells me how great the IsA is and the wonderful things they are doing....along with several good articles,
For me personally so far (I repeat...SO FAR) the ISA cert. has been a total waste of my time, and funds, and the memberships have been a joke.


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## clearance (Jul 28, 2007)

oldugly said:


> The only time the ISA or even our local chapter has any concern at all for public education is when it is paid for by its local members. Case in point...
> I recently ran a booth at two buisness expos, and home and garden shows. I called the ISA, (of which I am a recent member) and the MSA, (which I recently joined) asking them to send literature, or possibly even represent them somehow. I recently became certified and joined these organizations because I believe in trying to better this industry, (which I have participated in for 30 years, and have enjoyed the benefits of).
> I was given over to sales which offered to sell me brochures, and posters, and coloring books. So I found out the ISA will definitely put their money where their mouth is...AS LONG AS IT COMES FROM MY POCKET
> I recently became a certified arborist (left uncapitalized by intention)
> ...



Old, a while back you asked here if you should get ISA certified, I said you must already be good climber and that it will make you no better and associate you with all kinds of people, some who are very short on common sense. Others gushed and mewed about how great membership is. I take no pleasure in being right about this, but there have been a few things over the last while that I have been right about. Ladders are dangerous said I, not so, they are great said others, check out that classic picture in "what chainsaw is this". Any tree can be climbed spurless said some, big cedars can't said I, on another website the great Jerry Baranek says "it is impossible to set a line in those cedars". And then, the esteemed icon, Tom Dunlap, caught being far less than honest, duplicituous, in fact, about this whole sordid matter involving me climbing with spurs all the time for the ISA certified utility I do work for. And so it is.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 28, 2007)

oldugly said:


> I recently became a certified arborist (left uncapitalized by intention)
> Did it make me a better tree trimmer.....no.


Only you can do that, they provide educational material



> Did it make me more knowledgable.....only in aspects of tree care I will never use


Nothing(one) will wave a wand over your head and fill you up with knowledge. It is a never ending journey. 



> Did it "inspire" me to do more spikeless climbing...not really I have been leaning towards that area for years, and have found many ways to ascend a tree without spikes in trimming situations
> Do I suddenly think spikes are the greatest evil in the world...definitely not


I don't think anyone else here does either, most have followed your path over time



> Do I see any benefits from my ca or my membership to ISA, or MSA (the local chapter) yes...I got invited to a picnic...(after of course I spend 400.00 on a seminar), and I got invited to Hawaii, ..(During my busiest season, and of course after I pay my own way there and back and hotel rooms).


Same as any other professional organization, dues cannot cover the cost of the shows. I look at it as if I can get one little nugget that I can use on a regular basis, one piece of knowledge that I can pass on to clientel, then it is worth my money and time.

I've always had a problem with ISA's convention timing, but a lot of the people are in the academic field and can only get away in the summer.



> and I get a magazine every month.......along with several good articles,


That's worth a lot right there



> For me personally so far (I repeat...SO FAR) the ISA cert. has been a total waste of my time, and funds, and the memberships have been a joke.


I've not gone ISA/CA because I can show a greater then minimum knowledge to my clientel, as a subcontractor, in a few minutes of conversation. I've been a Life Memeber for near 10 years, I think it has been well worth my while.


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## treeseer (Jul 28, 2007)

oldugly, I agree that distributing ISA-generated information is a great idea. That is why I spend $11. for 100 brochures, highlight the crucial info like collar cuts, flare finding etc, put my stamp on the back, and pass em out. It would be silly to ask ISA to give stuff away free, and It's well worth $.11 each to spread the word.

If you suspect your clientele sees you as a bad deal due to the cert, it's on you to tell em why you are a better deal now. Because you are; you should be making more money. Unless you are immortal, in time you will need to do less climbing and trimming, and you will be happy you know about more.


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## clearance (Jul 28, 2007)

Caulk boots are dangerous for you? Do you know how to walk? Regardless of the boots you wear, you are still on the ground (or maybe closer to the ground if you are in the bush without caulks) rather than being in the air on a ladder. So, lame comparison.
My point regarding Mr. Baranecks observation is this, I was climbing big cedars out in the bush, with spurs of course. I was called a hack by people here who said they could spurless climb any tree, even big cedars with drooping branches. Not so, now you are saying its less than 1% of trees and so what, about 25% of the trees I climbed there were cedars. Kind of like what Mr. Fisher from B.C. Hydro said about only 5% (to my friend), (1% to me) of the trees trimmed for Hydro are climbed. So, why lie and say they are climbed spurless? Lame again, when you are called on it, you deny that that much harm was caused, a primary excuse of deviant organizational behavior. You like Mr. Dunlap are employing circuituos logic, in a manner designed to shift blame and deflect criticism where it is due. All vegatation coordinators that work for B.C. Hydro are ISA certified, as is Mr. Fisher, B.C. Hydro wanted this, and paid for it. So to say that B.C. Hydro is blameless for thier employees decisions or omissions in this matter is again, lame. 
Anything else?


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## oldugly (Jul 28, 2007)

Clearance,
I do not recall asking for advice on getting certified, but if I did I stand corrected, however the decision was made on the basis of self respect...and maybe to earn a little respect from my peers. I have valued your opinions highly, however most decisions I make are based on my own whims, or desires and not on the basis of web-based assosciates that I cannot place by face or personal contact. No offense intended at all. I would not expect others in this site to be influenced unduly by my assosciation here either.

JPS..I understand that getting certified did not make more knowledgable, what I was trying to say is that after 30 years in this business, all I did was prove what I already knew....which I have no problem proving on a day to day basis. But that is my point...I am still the same trimmer, person, tree climber, and businessman I was before. Be that good or bad. As far as the articles go, yes they are valuable, however are they worth the cost of the membership??? In my opinion that answer is still forthcoming.

No I do not expect for the ISA, or MSA to pay my fares for Hawaii, or any other event...but when given a chance to promote themselves in an area that is virtually void of any representation at all, the only representation they had was literature that I had to pay for out of pocket, distributed by a new member that had very limited information to give the public....So where is the ideal of public education?? From what I have seen (AGAIN A VERY LIMITED PERSPECTIVE) the "public" they are trying to educate consists of already members, or tree trimmers that are already trying to educate themselves. Their spiel seems to be delivered and redundantly reiterrated in the Arborist news, or their own educational material...but no where else. When given the opportunity to stand behind their mission...it falls on me to advertise them, instead of the reverse which is what their organization was suppose to be about.

This is remindful of the "Evangelist" who spends all his time speaking to the churches who are already saved, and none trying to spread the gospel. 

IF the ISA is just a social club for tree trimmers...so be it..that is not all that bad. But then they should say that is what it is. IF they are who they say they are, (maybe I should rephrase that because I am a member) IF we are who we say we are....then lets step to the plate and be so. Social clubs are great...then our mission should be fellowship and education of ourselves, and representation of ourselves. Lets not pretend we are trying to spread information...in this instance. If we are seriously trying to educate the public then let's do so. Don't tell me how much is being done...show me, don't tell me how much it benefits me...show me, and show me how to help.

Yes, I am willing and ready to help in any way possible, but please don't ask me to spend my membership fee to recruit more members, in our own magazine. (Then complain that raising public awareness requires money...it requires a refocus of funds...not MORE funds).


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## treeseer (Jul 28, 2007)

oldugly said:


> So where is the ideal of public education?? From what I have seen (AGAIN A VERY LIMITED PERSPECTIVE) the "public" they are trying to educate consists of already members, or tree trimmers that are already trying to educate themselves. Their spiel seems to be delivered and redundantly reiterrated in the Arborist news, or their own educational material...but no where else. When given the opportunity to stand behind their mission...it falls on me to advertise them


It falls on all of us to promote better tree care, and isa mtl is just one bag of tools for that. 

I agree that there is a lot more isa can and should do in the area of outreach and public ed, but it's not like I can get my cert and pay my dues and then sit back and beyotch because the org should do better. It seems there is still some confusion about the org--they are not the "them" you should promote, it's arboriculture.

"it falls on me to advertise them, instead of the reverse which is what their organization was suppose to be about."

have you looked at the treesaregood site? have you registered (free) there?
there are many other ways to use your cert and affiliations; look closer.


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## clearance (Jul 28, 2007)

Treeseer, "I can't deal with that", of course not. Then why say there are lies/extreme exaggerations? If you can't deal with it, best **** then.


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## clearance (Jul 29, 2007)

treeseer said:


> How about some coherence, clearance? :help: :notrolls2:



Is that really the best you can do? I suggest you read it over agian. If you have nothing to say, other than to post innanities, then I suggest you do as I requested and ****.


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## lxt (Jul 29, 2007)

I think of the ISA as kind of a politician(s) & heres why!!! we will create it off your money, promote it off your money, pay our staff off your money & do all else off your money!!!. your money means membership dues & all purchase revenue of materials, certifications, etc...

Heres the kicker...... whenever something needs attention, fixed, overhauled, publicised(spelling), or in just general needs done!!! will the higher-ups take less money? NOoooo you will be called on to donate your time and dig deep to provide the(as they would say) much needed funding!!!

just like politicians-- we want our nice lifestyle without compromise, when we need more money or something for the good of what we deem necessary we`ll raise TAXES. In this instance *DUES,MEMBERSHIP,PURCHASES* and anything else we can make profit on INCLUDING YOU!!!!!


LXT..................


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## Dadatwins (Jul 29, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Like right now..........our ISA dues are paying for paid vacations in Hawaii!



Good one Dan, that is sure stirring the pot with a big spoon.


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## RedlineIt (Jul 29, 2007)

There should be a ten minute limit on post editing here.

Frustrating to see a quote that the first guy then goes and eliminates five hours later. Stand by your words, gentlemen! Spiral of decline my left cheek.

I'm in complete agreement with the well-reasoned complaint that we as members get very little (read no) public profile out of the ISA. Even googling ISA doesn't get top billing, we're after a few other more frequently hit ISA's that no one has ever heard of. 

How many Landcaping magazines are there, perhaps dozens (Conservatively) Ads from the ISA promoting arborists: zero.

How many gardening magazines and commercial books are there, perhaps hundreds? Ads from the ISA promoting arborists: zero.

How many televison programs are there about house, home and garden? At least half a dozen. Ads from ISA promoting proper tree care: exactly zero.

In fact the only ads I've ever seen the ISA run are Ads that invite membership and its attendant fees. This seems to be the best they can do.

If it weren't for the fact that ISA cert is required by my job, I'd tell the ISA to take a flying leap. ANSI did all the real work, the ISA just sucks up dues and returns.....what? I'm waiting...

Davey Tree and Bartlett have labs and arbotretum where they independantly forge ahead with research, the ISA? What do they actually do?


Expose me as wrong, fine, I won't edit this five hours later... 



RedlineIt


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## oldugly (Jul 29, 2007)

*US and YHEM*

I have come to a realization that the main problem with this thread, and my posts concerning this subject is that members of this organization view the organizations as separate entities from themselves. Even Treeseer in some respect seems to distance himself from the ISA in certain areas. Although we are separate entities for the most part, (I realize some are excluded here and by all means I respect that decision) the ISA is us. So how do we change it, other than traveling to Hawaii, paying thousands out of pocket, and missin a week of our most productive season?

Someone quoted a survey, (which I have to admit I did not see), and also lamented the lack of response. To this I agree. I did not respond, because I did not see it...but I am a little busy, and to this lament I am not only sympathetic, but adamently apologetic that I missed that opportunity for my voice to be heard. Are there letters to be written, or officials to contact? What I get from my efforts...is a constant referral to sales. Or am I totally alone in believing that change is needed, or a refocus anyway?

I am a member, and therefore bashing the ISA, is in some respects bashing myself. We have got to let go of the US, and THEM philosophy. Maybe I do not agree with the policies, and maybe I am more than a little disappointed in what I have seen so far....but in the interest of the concerns raised here....how can WE change? I criticize myself often, I believe it is a process which makes me a better person. So my criticisms of the ISA, MSA, or any other entity to which I have allegiance, are justifiec (ay least in my opinion) in an extensional view of philosophies to which I have joined myself...therefore I am VERY critical of what and who the ISA is or has become, because the ISA also carries my name as well.


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## treeseer (Jul 29, 2007)

Red, I only took out what aggravated the bc hydro/spiking :deadhorse: rant. You did not miss a thing.

Dan, whose vacations are your dues paying for? I've been to the last 4 and I see isa employees woking long hours there, not my idea of a vacation.
Dada, Dan's spoon, like his head  has a lot of holes.



oldugly said:


> I have come to a realization that the main problem with this thread, and my posts concerning this subject is that members of this organization view the organizations as separate entities from themselves. Someone quoted a survey, (which I have to admit I did not see), and also lamented the lack of response. To this I agree. I did not respond, because I did not see it... Are there letters to be written, or officials to contact? What I get from my efforts...is a constant referral to sales. Or am I totally alone in believing that change is needed, or a refocus anyway?... I am VERY critical of what and who the ISA is or has become, because the ISA also carries my name as well.


Mine too.  

If you want to be more involved as a member, make sure they have all your contact info, and read AN closely, so you don't miss anything. I believe they emailed or mailed every member a survey. If most working members ignored it, no wonder isa policy is biased toward desk arborists (he Said from his desk :blush: )Some departments are very tree-oriented and responsive, some are numbers-oriented and less so. Definitely look at their organizational chart on their website and contact whoever you want to; the surveys came from eric duchinsky. If you have constructive suggestions they may get acted on; some of mine have been, many not (yet), but I do get explanations ranging from very helpful to dismissive.

I have no problem getting referred to sales because I buy and profit greatly from a lot of their products. If you haven't tried using the brochures and stuff to educate the public, why not? ISA is paying for the development of powerpoints that will be free for members to use, and is also paying for literature searches on risk and pruning, so these topics can be studied better.

On top of paying for dues and 3 certs, I volunteer a scary amount of hours on committee work. Yet I still get more out of ISA than I give. Are you listed at treesaregood.com yet?


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## treeseer (Jul 29, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> By having the ISA convention out of the country it will probably increase attendance at the TCIA meeting but maybe not.


 Come on up and see! Wanna carpool? I hope it does, so the board does not vote it offshore again. If there is not a big tradeshow, the conference may lose money, so I agree going offshore is a questionable decision.


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## Ekka (Jul 29, 2007)

Hey, anyone want to pick me up on the way, I'll give ya $200 for juice.


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## clearance (Jul 29, 2007)

RedlineIt said:


> There should be a ten minute limit on post editing here.
> 
> Frustrating to see a quote that the first guy then goes and eliminates five hours later. Stand by your words, gentlemen! Spiral of decline my left cheek.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Treeseer, stand by what you say. Or **** like I asked.


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 29, 2007)

ill see y'all here in st. louis next year for the 2008 I.S.A. conference


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## treeseer (Jul 29, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Hey, anyone want to pick me up on the way, I'll give ya $200 for juice.


Let's see, I'm 12 hours away if I drive staight there, or about 12 days going by Brisbane...some other time maybe.

Maybe we'll see you for the May 2009 Pan-Asian conf out your way. Did you see the 2008 program? They sure do plan in advance.

Dan, it looks like Hartford is about 18 hours for you, but you could always have a layover here. TCIA puts on a great expo, does good work with ANSI, and their magazine can be interesting. It is free at www.tcia.org--easy to subscribe.


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 29, 2007)

who is planning on attending the 2008 I.S.A. conference in st. louis????


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## Adam Lang (May 30, 2019)

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## jefflovstrom (Jun 6, 2019)

lol, you and a hundred more, this is not an advertisement site, 
Jeff


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## rarefish383 (Jun 13, 2019)

Hey Jeff, I haven't been over this way in a while. I thought he was still Beechin about ISA on a 12 year old thread.


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## colonial charles (Jun 22, 2019)

jrparbor04 said:


> i am I.S.A. Certifed Arborist and proud of it,,,that means that i am on top of the latest trends and have reached a very high platform in tree care knowledge and the industry,,,i went to school for trees and i believe i would rather have a Certifed Arborist work on my tree than any yahooooo company out there,,,,i work for a government and the people we serve(the public) are very pleased to know that a Certified Arborist is on hand,,,we have to continually take classes and courses to keep us on our toes in the newest equipment and knowledge in the tree care industry


To most people it’s comforting knowing that a tree guy can come to the house and identity all the trees and shrubs on there property. As a member of I.s.a I have greater standards than just some guy who decided to cut trees and forget the education part.


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## rarefish383 (Jun 22, 2019)

Welcome to the site. I agree with you to an extent. I’m 4th generation, retired. I passed the ISA test to be a Licensed MD Tree Expert, but never joined the ISA. On the other hand, my Dad was Licensed MD Tree Exprt since the first year a license was required, joined the ISA, but never took the test. So, he was a member, but much of his training was out dated. He studied under P.P.Perone, the leading authority of his day. When I was at MD U, on a Botany major, we were just starting to learn of Dr. Shigo, and many of his teachings were still more theory, than fact. A guy can join many “Societies”, and have a bunch of stickers on a truck window, and be a hack. The last I heard the ISA took the ID part out of the test. When I took the test I had several idiots following me around asking me to ID trees for them. I grew up in tree care, lived and breathed it. Now, if I understand it, ISA lowered their standards so those idiots can get their certifications. If that’s true, I’ve lost a little of my respect for the organization. But, being retired, all I do is hunt, fish, and mow grass on my farm. I used to run down the road if I heard a chipper to see who it was. Now all the good guys I knew are dead, or kicked back in FL.


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