# .375 or .404?



## boatman (Dec 7, 2010)

I am considering upgrading to a 395xp. What are the pros and cons to the different sizes?

This will be used for milling hardwoods.


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## mtngun (Dec 7, 2010)

The smallest kerf will cut the fastest.

Lo-pro/picco will give the fastest cut times. The downside is the trouble and/or cost of the special rim and special sprocket nose.

0.325 is the next fastest, but there is no 0.325 ripping chain, so you have to buy a roll of Carlton semi-chisel non-safety chain, make your own loops, and regrind the cutters to 10 degrees.  

3/8 is next on the list. Ripping chains and bars and rims are readily available, but speed is lacking.

I wouldn't even consider 404, though we have a few members who use it and are happy with it.


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## boatman (Dec 8, 2010)

How long do the smaller chains last when compared to the larger?

I see Granberg sells .325 ripping chain on their site. Is the low pro/ pico you mention 3/8-.375 low pro?


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## betterbuilt (Dec 8, 2010)

I normally run 3/8 ripping chain and it been pretty reliable. I'm setting up to try the 325 on a 42 inch bar. I'm hoping to reduce the pile of saw dust I make and get a extra board from a log.


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## mtngun (Dec 8, 2010)

boatman said:


> How long do the smaller chains last when compared to the larger?


I have yet to wear out any milling chain, but the cutters are shorter on the smaller chains, so it stands to reason that their life will be shorter, too. 



> I see Granberg sells .325 ripping chain on their site.


Didn't know that, thanks for the info, not that I can afford Granberg chain.



> Is the low pro/ pico you mention 3/8-.375 low pro?


Yes


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## Brmorgan (Dec 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> The smallest kerf will cut the fastest.
> 
> Lo-pro/picco will give the fastest cut times. *The downside is the trouble and/or cost of the special rim and special sprocket nose.*
> 
> ...



LOL or do like me and run it on standard gear and hope for the best. So far no big issues other than a bit of premature wear that I can see; no breakages or anything like some others have reported, and I've driven the LP chain HARD on the 066. 


For next season, I'm hoping to try .325 full-chisel at 0° on the 395. I have a 20" large-mount Husky bar I converted to .325 but have never built a chain for. It would only be used for clean slabs, no bark, so the chisel should stay sharp fairly well. And with the .325 on 9-pin, the chain will be humming along pretty good and there are a lot of cutters moving in the wood, so I'm hoping it should give a pretty smooth cut too.

I use .404 on the 090 (though not often) with an 8-pin rim to get the chain speed up, otherwise it could use a nine or ten pin .375" rim which I don't have. It'll do OK on the 084 too in the softwoods here; the 7-pin .404 will let it bang on the governor a bit. It's crazy durable too; once cut clean through a 3/8" bolt without significant damage. I have a big Birch root ball here that I'm planning on building a .404 harvester chain (.085ga) setup to mill because I'm certain it'll have gravel embedded somewhere. That stuff is heavy duty and then some.


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## TSRuff (Dec 9, 2010)

This thread has me thinking a little more about my existing setup for milling. Right now I am running a 3/8" .063 setup with an 8 pin on a 42" bar, powered by my 3120. I went with this setup because if I'm not using the 3120 for milling then I'm normally cutting up cottonwoods/willows and this way only have to swap out the chain. Now I've got a 395 for the larger tasks and can truly dedicate the 3120 to the mill.

My ideal setup would be the following: .325" .050 with an 8 or 9 pin (or 10 pin if it would still have sufficient power) on a 42" bar, still using the 3120.

My research into this the last time I got the itch resulted in me not being able to find either a hard nose or .325 roller tip .050 42" bar for the 3120, no .325 sprocket for the 3120 and a whole lot of frustated Google seaching with no results.

Without sounding too much like I'm asking you all to do my homework for me, does anyone use a similar setup and are you willing to share your sources? If I sound desperate, it's because I am!


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## Brmorgan (Dec 9, 2010)

Aggiewoodbutcher has run . 325 that long, though I'm pretty sure on a Stihl, 084 or 880 I think. Probably want to stick to 9-pin to keep torque up with that many cutters in the wood though. No such thing as 8-pin for large-spline drive either.


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## mtngun (Dec 9, 2010)

TSRuff said:


> .325" .050 with an 8 or 9 pin (or 10 pin if it would still have sufficient power) on a 42" bar, still using the 3120.


9 pin 325 rim is readily available.

All the big bars will be 0.063". Not a problem, since the gage has nothing to do with the kerf. Aggie uses Carlton K3 chain, I believe (325 x 0.063", semi-chisel, non-safety).

What's wrong with a sprocket nose ? You won't find a 42" bar with a 325 sprocket nose, but 325 tips are readily available for you to swap in.

A roller nose would be ideal, but they just don't make 'em any more, at least not on this side of the pond.


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## betterbuilt (Dec 10, 2010)

mtngun said:


> 9 pin 325 rim is readily available.
> 
> All the big bars will be 0.063". Not a problem, since the gage has nothing to do with the kerf. Aggie uses Carlton K3 chain, I believe (325 x 0.063", semi-chisel, non-safety).
> 
> ...



I would add to this that for Stihl bars there are two different size sprockets. There is a smaller sprocket and a larger sprocket and I have yet to find a source for the larger sprocket in .325 tip. If anyone has a source I'd love to know where. 

I had to go to a bar that has a Oregon style sprocket. They switch between .325, 3/8, and 404 really easily.


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## boatman (Dec 13, 2010)

*Logosol chain?*

I am getting a Logosol M7. Who's chain do they sell? Is it rebranded or something they make?


They sell "Logosol Picco" bars, again who makes them?

I believe they are set up for .375 lo pro.

One of my saws is .404. perhaps I should look into a .375 set up for it.

Faster is better.


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## mtngun (Dec 14, 2010)

boatman said:


> Who's chain do they sell? Is it rebranded or something they make?
> 
> They sell "Logosol Picco" bars, again who makes them?


I don't know who makes the Logosol bars or chain, but I'm sure it is rebranded.

If a picco drive sprocket is available for your 395, I'd lean toward the picco bar and chain. You could also run 3/8 lo-pro (sometimes called 0.369") on that setup. It cuts 15% - 25% faster than 3/8. 

Congratulations on the M7. They have a good reputation.


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## Arky217 (Dec 14, 2010)

I use a 395 on a Logosol M7.
Started out with Logosol's .325, .050 gage, but after breaking half a dozen, I went to .375, .063 gage. Much better success, although I have broken one of those. The 395 with a muffler mod is a hoss.

Arky


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## BobL (Dec 14, 2010)

Arky217 said:


> I use a 395 on a Logosol M7.
> Started out with Logosol's .325, .050 gage, but after breaking half a dozen, I went to .375, .063 gage. Much better success, although I have broken one of those.



I would be interested to know how or why any of those chains (esp the 375/063) broke. 
What size and type of wood are you cutting?
Did anything else happen just before when they broke?

The stuff I'm cutting is most likely much harder and bigger than what you're cutting and I can't imagine breaking a chain. I wonder if it has something to do with lack of sufficient chain lube?


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## Arky217 (Dec 14, 2010)

BobL said:


> I would be interested to know how or why any of those chains (esp the 375/063) broke.
> What size and type of wood are you cutting?
> Did anything else happen just before when they broke?
> 
> The stuff I'm cutting is most likely much harder and bigger than what you're cutting and I can't imagine breaking a chain. I wonder if it has something to do with lack of sufficient chain lube?



Can't really say why they broke.
It was in yellow pine, max cut about 18", but usually about 12" to 14".
Oiler was set to max and the oil tank was always close to empty by the time the saw needed fuel.
Also had a water drip/with few drops of dish soap added to keep down the pitch and dust.
I may keep the rakers down more than others do; that might have had something to do with it; and I wasn't bashful about feeding it the log.
But I always resharpened before the chips turned fine.

It's not like they broke one right after another; probably went through at least 6-8 tanks of fuel before a breakage.
Best guess is that I kept the rakers lower (about .030-.040) and really pushed the saw into the log.
But .050 gage is fairly thin and after I opened up the muffler, the saw really has some torque.
As I said, I'm not sure why they broke. But the .063 gage seems to hold up (except that one time).

Arky


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## mtngun (Dec 14, 2010)

Arky217 said:


> It's not like they broke one right after another; probably went through at least 6-8 tanks of fuel before a breakage.


I ran lo-pro all summer on a 36" 066BB, no breakage. I would guess those two lo-pro chains saw 200 tanks of fuel.



> But .050 gage is fairly thin...... the .063 gage seems to hold up (except that one time).


Depending on the brand, 0.063" gage is not necessarily thicker or stronger than 0.050". I forget which brand is the exception, I want to say Stihl chain is the one that is thicker. Carlton is the same thickness/strength regardless of gage.

The lo-pro that I use is 0.050".

Aggie has run 325 x 0.063" for years with 120cc saws. I'm with BobL, something else caused your chains to break.


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## Arky217 (Dec 14, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I ran lo-pro all summer on a 36" 066BB, no breakage. I would guess those two lo-pro chains saw 200 tanks of fuel.
> 
> Depending on the brand, 0.063" gage is not necessarily thicker or stronger than 0.050". I forget which brand is the exception, I want to say Stihl chain is the one that is thicker. Carlton is the same thickness/strength regardless of gage.
> 
> ...



Like I said, I can't pinpoint the reason for the breakage, but after 6 broke and not seeing any obvious reason why, I figured it was time for a stouter chain.

"Depending on the brand, 0.063" gage is not necessarily thicker or stronger than 0.050". I forget which brand is the exception, I want to say Stihl chain is the one that is thicker. Carlton is the same thickness/strength regardless of gage."

Huh ? Not sure what you mean by this.
A .050 gage chain means that the drive link is .050" thick; same for the .063 gage, .063" thick.
The drive links can't be both .050" and .063", so not sure what you mean by same thickness regardless of gage.
If you mic. the drive link and it's .063", it's a .063 gage chain;
likewise on the .050.

Arky


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## betterbuilt (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm pretty sure mtngun is referring to the tie straps not the drive links.


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## Arky217 (Dec 14, 2010)

betterbuilt said:


> I'm pretty sure mtngun is referring to the tie straps not the drive links.



Could be, but it's the thickness of the drive link that determines the gage. Try running a .063 gage chain in a .050 gage bar, it's not going to happen.

Arky


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## mtngun (Dec 14, 2010)

Arky217 said:


> Huh ? Not sure what you mean by this.
> A .050 gage chain means that the drive link is .050" thick; same for the .063 gage, .063" thick.
> The drive links can't be both .050" and .063"


OK, I looked it up. 

All Stihl 3/8 chain has 0.063" drive links, and only the drive tang is thinned for 0.050". Therefore, a Stihl 3/8 x 0.050" chain is just as strong as 0.063" chain.

Not sure if that rule applies to Stihl 325, though. 

Oregon & Carlton 3/8 chain uses drive 0.058" links even on 0.050", only the tang being different. 

Again, I don't know if that applies to Oregon/Carlton 325.

The bottom line is, if you are worried about the strength of a 325 drive link, you could run 325 x 0.063", as Aggie does. 

No doubt a 120cc saw is better off with 0.063, in fact, you'll have a hard time finding anything other than 0.063" bars for the large mounts.

You mentioned you broke one 3/8 x 0.063", so it sounds like something else is going on with your setup. I've never broken a chain milling (now watch -- next time I go milling, I'll break a chain ).


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## Arky217 (Dec 14, 2010)

"All Stihl 3/8 chain has 0.063" drive links, and only the drive tang is thinned for 0.050". Therefore, a Stihl 3/8 x 0.050" chain is just as strong as 0.063" chain."

Mtngun,

Could you give me a link as to where you got this information.

You seem to be saying that the drive links on a Stihl 3/8, .050 gage chain are actually .063" thick at the rivets and .050 only at the tang of the drive link.

Arky


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## mtngun (Dec 15, 2010)

One of several threads where the subject is discussed.
Lakeside's comments on chain gage



Lakeside53 said:


> if you use Stihl chain, there is zero difference in strength between 050 and 063... same cutters and joiners - just thinned BOTTOM of the tang on 050.


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## BobL (Dec 15, 2010)

Arky217 said:


> Can't really say why they broke.
> It was in yellow pine, max cut about 18", but usually about 12" to 14".
> Oiler was set to max and the oil tank was always close to empty by the time the saw needed fuel.
> Also had a water drip/with few drops of dish soap added to keep down the pitch and dust.
> ...



So when in the life cycle of the chain did they break - early? later? or random?

0.03-0.04 raker depths are probably too much for new chain and too little for well used chain.
To ease up on the powerhead I'd be using a raker depth of 1/10th of the gullet width.


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## boatman (Dec 15, 2010)

Logosol is selling Picco bar and chain now. 

Sure is allot of info on this site. I am learning allot just from this one post.


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## betterbuilt (Dec 15, 2010)

Well I learned something new. Thanks!

Every chain I've had fail has been at the tie straps. They just snap.


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## DRB (Dec 15, 2010)

betterbuilt said:


> Well I learned something new. Thanks!
> 
> Every chain I've had fail has been at the tie straps. They just snap.



Me to. Oregon 75RD 3/8 chain that is.


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## betterbuilt (Dec 15, 2010)

I've had the 3/8 .063 woodland pro break. Its kinda weird they snap on one side. I tried to change them out but they don't last very long and another one will break. I've come to the conclusion that chains are junk when that happens.


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## BobL (Dec 15, 2010)

betterbuilt said:


> I've had the 3/8 .063 woodland pro break. Its kinda weird they snap on one side. I tried to change them out but they don't last very long and another one will break. I've come to the conclusion that chains are junk when that happens.



I guess so many people are using this chain that sooner or later some are going to break. 

I'd still like to know when does this happen in the life of the chain? early, late or random.

The other thing worth know is does it tend to break the tie straps ahead or behind a cutter or a drive link (or is it just random). Skip chain users might be able to provide some useful info here.

I don't think any single or small sample set is going to tease this out but a cumulative set of data might?


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## betterbuilt (Dec 15, 2010)

BobL said:


> I guess so many people are using this chain that sooner or later some are going to break.
> 
> I'd still like to know when does this happen in the life of the chain? early, late or random.
> 
> ...



I'll dig up a broken strap a see where it broke. Compared to some of you guys I never get past the first half of a cutters life.


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