# Zip line questions



## BgWdnTitePlaces (Nov 8, 2009)

I've had mixed results with zip line work. Experimented with different ways to get the rope tight, come along(pulleys), pulley over pulley on base tree, etc. I know the set up has to be perfect for it to work effectively. Any zip line advice would be appreciated.


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## treemandan (Nov 8, 2009)

BgWdnTitePlaces said:


> I've had mixed results with zip line work. Experimented with different ways to get the rope tight, come along(pulleys), pulley over pulley on base tree, etc. I know the set up has to be perfect for it to work effectively. Any zip line advice would be appreciated.



oooh, it sounds like you need to come day for Training Day with The Dan. 5 bucks a pop. whadaya say?


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## jomoco (Nov 8, 2009)

A tooltruck with an electric winch is my preferred means of not only controlling the taughtness of the zipline, but also exactly where on that line the load will stop it's descent, at the rope and cable hook junction.

You must be prepared in the tree as a climber for the inevitable ride that results from a big log or branch suddenly reaching the "end of the line". The bigger and faster the load is equates to a more violent ride.

Redirecting the zipline to a very local tie off point in close proximity to the target load is an excellent way to minimize any line slack, and sets up that redirect point as the next load going down, already rigged and ready, just cut below it and allow the original zipline tie off point catch it.

Zip lining can be a hugely cool time saving trick if done right, if done with a full understanding of the unusual and sometimes violent forces involved. The man on the winch must understand the direct forces he can exert on you in the tree, and appreciate them to the same extent you do in the tree.

It's very easy to yank 4 men off their feet trying to anchor a zipline, mechanizing the anchor with a winch equipped truck makes zipping bigger heavier loads far safer and effective.

Here's a little example of how much weight 3-4 guys can safely anchor on a 100 foot sideways reach up to about 80 feet in the tree, from my perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8bFWsC7nNE

jomoco


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## squad143 (Nov 14, 2009)

I usually anchor my speedline (zipline) to the base of another tree using a whoopie sling and a port-a-wrap. I'll use another line with a 3:1 haul system to tension the speedline via a rope grab or prussik. Once the speedline line is tensioned, you can lock it off using the port-a-wrap (or fig. 8 descender) and then undo (loosen) the haul system. I find that with this system, you can quickly loosen the speedline and advance it up to another location in the tree. 

Because of the side loads that you will be subjecting the tree (or branch) to, you do not want to add too much tension to the speedline. Usually I'll only have one person tension the 3:1 haul system when using pulleys, two if I'm only using carabineers in my z-haul system. However that is only a general rule. Many factors come into play. Angle of the line, length of the line and the strength of the tree are few of the considerations you have to take into account when tensioning the speedline. These side loads are greatly increased once the speedline is loaded by the branch, limb, chunk of spar, etc. More so once the item is in the middle of the speedline. Add a big bounce and the results could be catastrophic.

Usually I will set up my speedline so that the items being lowered strike the ground before the anchor, to slow them down. This can usually be accomplished by using pulleys (redirects) close to the ground on another tree. Care must be taken in setting up the system so that you do not compound the forces on your redirect anchors.

I have also used a lowering line in the tree, rigged to a small port-a-wrap, and then attached to a large item to be lowered to control the speed of descent. 

NEVER drop the top or a chunk of the spar onto a speedline alone. Drop the chunk onto a false crotch/port-a-wrap system, then connect it to the speedline. Control the descent with port-a-wrap.

There is some setup time, extra equipment involved and alot of considerations to take into account, but speedlines are time saving procedures that is nice to have in your arsenal. They can reduce the effort and distance limbs must be dragged to get to the chipper (especially when the dragging is uphill) and speed up the removal over target areas.

As with any technique, and speedlines are more advanced, you are best to learn from someone with experience (take a course). Start slow, with a simple system, small pieces on a very stable (strong) tree before working your way to trickier situations.

*Fast way of lowering limbs on conifers.* (Just don't hit your slings with the chainswaw  )


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## squad143 (Nov 14, 2009)

More pics. Target below (garage).
















Used a snap cut to control the drop.


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## jomoco (Nov 14, 2009)

There are many strategic advantages to a speedline that many climbers overlook, primary among them is the speedline anchor point in the tree does not necessarily have to ever support the loads full weight in the same sense that catching it off a block does in a snubbed off scenario, done right, a well executed speedline can actually redirect the loads weight to the strongest weight bearing direction of the tree's main leader in a 360 degrees sense.

So in other words, if your strategic objective is to remove a leaning hazardous tree because you feel it is not anchored into the ground well, or has basal defects, you can run your speedline 180 degrees off the tree's lean, zip all it's weight off of it, all along the avenue of greatest structural integrity, and never actuall "catching" the full weight of any single load provided each load hits the ground prior to contacting it's ground anchor.

A whole book could be written about speedlining, but the complexities and liabilities from doing it are formidable in my opinion.

One of my most oft repeated ISA infractions is zipping a worrisome branch off a removal, that I failed to see from the ground, using a biner, small nylon loop and the tail of my climbing line.

I don't do it often, don't recommend doing it to other climbers, and absolutely did not chop no stinkin cherry tree down, not recently anyway.

jomoco


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## 48"BAR PINCHER (Nov 14, 2009)

treemandan said:


> oooh, it sounds like you need to come day for Training Day with The Dan. 5 bucks a pop. whadaya say?



I'm in @ 5 bucks no prob. What time and where?:biggrinbounce2: I've considered using a zipline a few times but I can't say I always trust my groundies enuff to do their job right!


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## outofmytree (Nov 15, 2009)

Hey Jomoco. I like to err on the side of caution with rigging. Do you have a set rule for when you would switch from karabiners running down your zip line to pulleys? Size, weight, swing, height, tree species?


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## jomoco (Nov 15, 2009)

I have set up and used some fairly elaborate 3/4 inch speedlines with haulbacks and all the goodies, but only on a few strategic contracts where alot of brush and wood had to cross a ravine, river or some other formidable obstacle.

The vast bulk of my speedlining is done with either steel or aluminum biners. I have not worn out any of the steel biners I use for big stuff yet, but I go through aluminum biners like candy. It's shocking how quickly sliding down a taut rope can wear a groove through an aluminum biner.

Running pullies down a speedline without a haulback is foolish in my opinion, way too fast and dangerous, unless you have a huge splatting zone.

I like and use speedlines alot, more so now than ever I suppose, but I get real nervous about teaching or pushing the practice to other climbers, precisely because it is very dangerous indeed, unless you and your winch man understand the dynamic forces involved.

I've found that effective speedlining in general is limited to about a 200-300 foot reach simply because of rope stretch, to reach further effectively requires steel cables, and then you're logging.

One of the more technical removals I've done was a big leaning Torrey pine growing entirely over the L shaped clubhouse of the famed Torrey Pines golf course here in San Diego.

Nothing could be cut off the tree without complete control, or it would land on the roof.

By placing a 3/4 speedline in the top spar, with two haulbacks, I was able to run every stick of that huge tree 150 feet away to the chipper, except a 35-40 foot trunk, with a distinct lean over the roof, which I was able to stand straight up and drop on the exact path of the speedline with my truck's 12K electric winch, using a compound line with a pulley on the spar, effectively giving me 24K lbs of pulling force.

Short of a monster crane, there was no other way to get that tree safely down without men on top of their two story clubhouse's roof. It took two days, costing them about 6K.

Sometimes a speedline is the only viable means of accomplishing your task!

jomoco


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## outofmytree (Nov 15, 2009)

How about line wear due to friction generated heat?


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## jomoco (Nov 15, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> How about line wear due to friction generated heat?



Very minimal compared to a hobbs or porta wrap.

Sure eats aluminum biners though!

jomoco


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## lumberjack333 (Nov 15, 2009)

Cool advice Jomo, I really like the Idea of using the speedline 180deg off the trees natural lean to maximize strength... Never set on up yet myself, but I'd like to try one sometime soon, ideally in a conifer as that seems to the the easiest and safest way to start...


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## rydnruff (Nov 15, 2009)

what is the best type of rope used for a speed line


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 15, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I have set up and used some fairly elaborate 3/4 inch speedlines with haulbacks and all the goodies, but only on a few strategic contracts where alot of brush and wood had to cross a ravine, river or some other formidable obstacle.
> 
> The vast bulk of my speedlining is done with either steel or aluminum biners. I have not worn out any of the steel biners I use for big stuff yet, but I go through aluminum biners like candy. It's shocking how quickly sliding down a taut rope can wear a groove through an aluminum biner.
> 
> ...



:agree2:
Often obstacles dictate the placement of the landing zone. Below is a speedline setup 70 degrees off the lean to avoid the house, impossible terrain and other trees. There was no access for a bucket or crane. The speedline is 250 ft of 1/4" steel cable (100 ft to anchor, 150 ft to LZ) with a snatch block and haulback. The stem was also anchored opposite the lean with 5/8 steel cable holding line. Seems excessive, but it turned out ... the stem heartwood was completely rotted away - *it pays to be cautious*.


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## jomoco (Nov 15, 2009)

The vast bulk of all my ropes for climbing and speedlining/lowering are samson ropes, 3/4 inch stable braid bull lines, and 1/2 inch true blue climbing lines.

True blue is very heavy line, but I like it for it's durability and strength.

Someone should consider building a commercial spool trailer for speedlining with a choice of 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 inch long lines. I built a custom rope spool trailer once long ago with a VW brake assembly on the spooling axle for controlled descents of big wood to very soft landings below.

Provided you have sufficient heighth in the tree to anchor your zipline to, it's a show off's delight to cut big leaders over houses that seem to magically redirect themselves in mid-air and zip off sideways in a different tangent away from the house's roof!

I've never had a client who wasn't very impressed by speedlining done well with a good crew working together smoothly.

It can just as easily be very dangerous in the hands of an amateur, so start light and easy, and closely watch the unusual lateral dynamics at play on your rigging and anchors at both ends of the line.

jomoco


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## squad143 (Nov 15, 2009)

lumberjack333 said:


> Cool advice Jomo, I really like the Idea of using the speedline 180deg off the trees natural lean to maximize strength...:



Excellent idea. 

In trees that I'm concerned of putting too much of a side load on, I've run the speed line through the tree and anchored it to an object on the ground. Using this method puts more of the force down through the trunk than having it from the side..






I just noticed SingleJacks post (he must have put it in while I was crudely drawing my pic). Great shot. Line running in the opposite direction to compensate the pull towards the LZ.


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## squad143 (Nov 15, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I've never had a client who wasn't very impressed by speedlining done well with a good crew working together smoothly.
> 
> It can just as easily be very dangerous in the hands of an amateur, so start light and easy, and closely watch the unusual lateral dynamics at play on your rigging and anchors at both ends of the line.
> 
> jomoco



:agree2: With both paragraphs.

I use New England Double Braid Poly (Super Braid Plus). Seems to work ok. and steel biners are a must.


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## lumberjack333 (Nov 15, 2009)

Another quality point squad143, suppose you could even run the line through a block slung around the stem to get it in an optimal position.


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## outofmytree (Nov 16, 2009)

lumberjack333 said:


> Another quality point squad143, suppose you could even run the line through a block slung around the stem to get it in an optimal position.



Ka-ching!! Give the man a cigar! Precisely what I was going to post. I like to use 1 groundie who is rigging smart to control all the work and the rest to haul. Set up this way allows Adam to control both the height/tension of the zipline and also the descent control/retrieval line when the tree is suspect or the pieces are large.


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## squad143 (Nov 16, 2009)

lumberjack333 said:


> Another quality point squad143, suppose you could even run the line through a block slung around the stem to get it in an optimal position.



Yes, every situation is unique. Whatever technique gets the job safely done in a timely manner.

There are a lot of great videos on Youtube.

This is one of my favorites: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3sRc8jk_s
- would have been neat if they could have lowered the speed line right into the waiting truck. 

Plus there is a great vid (Not great video quality) on loop runners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEB3B99d2wI


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## eye.heart.trees (Nov 2, 2019)

Hate to resurrect threads but this has so much of my concerns that I'm hoping to just continue it:


jomoco said:


> So in other words, if your strategic objective is to remove a leaning hazardous tree because you feel it is not anchored into the ground well, or has basal defects, you can run your speedline 180 degrees off the tree's lean, zip all it's weight off of it, all along the avenue of greatest structural integrity, and never actuall "catching" the full weight of any single load provided each load hits the ground prior to contacting it's ground anchor.



Another poster referred to the (sometimes *substantial*) fores that a groundie can put on the tree's ancnhoring-point if they don't know what they're doing, but then I read your post which confirmed my original understanding... Is it fair to say that, if you're speedlining in a manner where the branches are being brought to crashes on the ground, then there'd be no worries for the climber Re noobie-groundies, right? IE, the danger that groundies can impose here is by snubbing or sharply-decelerating the load on its way down, right?

Thanks a ton for any insight on that, however there's 1 more thing I'm trying to get a better handle on.... I have a project that I *was* going to setup a controlled-speedline for, but now after watching (the amazing!!) 'pfannerman' (lawrentz schultz), and seeing how much 'drift rigging' he does (IE setting two high-anchors so that as the log is cut it swings-into the center of the two high-anchors' middle-point), it seems like you coudl control more weight more precisely this way **except** it comes at a loss of precision on drop-zone (though not much, if setup right!) which has me thinking to try drift-lining the piece instead of controlled-speedline - would love anything you couuld tell me on this!! (FWIW, this stuff in-question isn't stuff that even needs rigging at all, it's backyard practice, goal is to get proficient enough to market myself as a contract climber and start recouping $$ so I can continue buying gear & having fun climbing&rigging -- still can't believe this is something to get paid for  ) ((Bonus Q: What about using DBR/mech-advantage rig setups while in the drift-line context? IE my closest rope doesn't just connect to the log, I've taken a bight out from my anchor and run it through a Safebloc on the log to be cut, then tie-off the drift-line....it seems that the Safebloc would control some initial-forces before the drift-line was fully engaged meaning any given weight would stress things far less! Any thoughts on that'd be greatly appreciated!!))

(2nd PS- what's the minimum 'light-duty' cordage you guys would use for speedlines, is 1/2" / 10k ABS acceptable? How critical does elasticity factor-into this? Have been reading high-line/tight-rope forums for better-understadning speedline-strengths but still having trouble, can see them being stronger or weaker than simple end-to-end cordage strength!)


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