# Walked From the Job



## Chucky (Oct 13, 2004)

Here's a Red Maple (Acer rubrum) removal that I bid on last winter. It's been declining fast according to the homeowner, especially since a large ice storm in 1998. I showed up today with a groundman I hired from my regular job. The groundman was just late enough for me to to gas the saws, prep the landing zone, and get prepare my plan of attack.


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## Chucky (Oct 13, 2004)

Here's a pic of a major branch failure from the ice storm.


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## BigJohn (Oct 13, 2004)

So did the truck break down?


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## BigJohn (Oct 13, 2004)

Did you lock the keys in it? Maybe you dumped the tree on the truck? Tell why you had to walk home?


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## Chucky (Oct 13, 2004)

. . . and here's a flat spot in the trunk, indicating probably a girdling root.


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## Chucky (Oct 13, 2004)

. . . anyways, I got a fair ways up the tree, and I looked down and saw all the big wood below me, and I looked up and saw all the wood above me, and I looked sideways and saw all the wood beside me . . . and I began to have second thoughts about my ability to take this tree. 

And for the first time, after a few moments of serious reflection, I yelled down to Ken that we were packing up and leaving.

I was humbled and embarrassed, but I guess the only thing that got hurt today was my ego.



Chucky
Show, Whoa!, & go TREE SERVICE


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## BigJohn (Oct 13, 2004)

Glad to hear you didn't lock your keys in the truck. We have all been there. I hope I don't get called on this too as to me going on about how great I am. But here goes I been your shoes. The best thing to do is to carefully get back up there and take that tree. 

Maybe not. I'm sure you could be coached through it.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 13, 2004)

Was the tree moving oddly as you ascended?


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## John Stewart (Oct 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chucky _
> *. . . anyways, I got a fair ways up the tree, and I looked down and saw all the big wood below me, and I looked up and saw all the wood above me, and I looked sideways and saw all the wood beside me . . . and I began to have second thoughts about my ability to take this tree.
> 
> And for the first time, after a few moments of serious reflection, I yelled down to Ken that we were packing up and leaving.
> ...



Be humble brother not embarrased!
It takes a bigger man to walk away and your a better one for it. 
Just learn from it and move on!
Later
John


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## Dadatwins (Oct 13, 2004)

Good for you for walking on the job if you think you are not capable of doing it. I could rip on giving a bid for a job that you could not do but sounds like a lesson learned and fortunatly you realized the danger involved before getting yourself or someone else injured. Instead of losing all the $$ on the job why not try to call another company or a hired gun to knock it down for you and watch and learn for next time?


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## Lumberjack (Oct 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by BigJohn _
> *Glad to hear you didn't lock your keys in the truck. We have all been there. I hope I don't get called on this too as to me going on about how great I am. But here goes I been your shoes. The best thing to do is to carefully get back up there and take that tree.
> 
> Maybe not. I'm sure you could be coached through it. *



I agree, your best be would be to climb it back up... sometimes it can seem too much, so break it into smaller tasks.

As butch said, where you worried about the tree structurally failing?

If not, but you didnt want the rigging to pop it, I recommend tieing the 2 main leads together with something like a 3/1 compression MA setup towards the top. If need be tie the center back 180 degrees from the first. Tie into the top of the center, and then work down the lead on the left, then the center.

Where is the LZ? The road side?

However if you truly believe that this tree is beyond you abilities, then dont do it. Make sure you explain to the customer.


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## wct4life (Oct 13, 2004)

Chucky, 

I wouldn't worry about walking away. I've been in a couple of situations like yours. I'd get into a tree, look around, and realize that my intial thoughts changed with the new perspective. Fortunately for me, I can just call the boss, explain my dilema and we take care of it on another day. That's when he has me go back with the most experienced guy we have then either he does it and explains what/why he does it his way or I go up and he coaches.

It's better to live and learn than try and die.

(I think I found my new sig )


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## Stumper (Oct 13, 2004)

Chucky, No shame in walking-I've done it a few times. Yeah it is embarassing but best to be safe. 
Just wondering-is there any reason that tree can't be dumped whole. The pic doesn't show all but there looks like there is a lot of room around that tree.


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## glens (Oct 13, 2004)

What's not to like about the job?&nbsp; Pull the mail/newspaper boxes, dump the left lead there maybe in a couple pieces, then the middle, then the right, then dump the spar and clean out all the beer from the fridge set up at the work site.

Glen


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## murphy4trees (Oct 13, 2004)

How much $ did you put on that tree... Maybe you would be a little more encouraged to make it happen if you had put some serious dollars on that tree... One of my first trees was a tulip about that size.... I think I put $175 on it... I was scared plenty.... knees were shakin uncontrolably.... Should have put $675 on it to make it worth the trouble.... Hope you can learn from my mistake here....
Good luck with the tree!


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## Chucky (Oct 13, 2004)

I know what Big John and Lumberjack are saying: regroup and figure a way to take the tree. And when I did production tree work for a large company I’da done that, not that I’da had much choice. But because this tree’s owned by a friend of the boss’s, I bid low – way low, so the job was not really gonna make me much coin. 

I think it was mostly the sheer mass of the tree that daunted me, even though I’ve taken down much bigger trees with an experienced groundmen. But to tell you the truth, because the tree’s been declining for a few years, I got a little spooked up toward the top. Maybe unjustifiably, but since I’m calling the shots, that’s the shot I called. And I know a tree service with a bucket that bid $700 on it, so I advised the homeowner to take it.

I took a job I couldn’t handle, that’s all there is to it. 

Stumper: dropping the tree whole was my first proposition – the homeowner wouldn’t go for it because of his lilac bushes and his White Pine – and it would be 90 degrees from the natural direction of fall (if I dropped it toward where it’s leaning, there’s both the road and primary lines (not in the pic) in the way.

Glen: that was *exactly* my plan from the beginning. I must be getting old. In any event, someone else will do the job, and in the meantime I’ll move on – thank you, John, and wct4life.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 13, 2004)

*Don't forget!*

Ya gotta get yur mind right!


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 13, 2004)

Potential girdling root looks like a nonissue; a little shovel work would reveal one if it was there. that codom tearout looks ugly; could you have stopped there and poked around before climbing above it? 

That may have been the spot to breathe deep, assess risk, and redo the plan. If bad, bracing to avoid splitting makes sense.

Nothing wrong at all with sending that one to the bucket crew. Saddest part of this whole story is the missed opportunity to prune back that heavy limb so it would not tear out like that.


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## NeTree (Oct 13, 2004)

As I said in another thread...

Sometimes knowing what you CAN'T do is more important than knowing what you CAN.

At least you'll live to fight another day.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 13, 2004)

Walk while ya still can, and don't ignore your senses.


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## NeTree (Oct 13, 2004)

Can anyone here honestly say there aren't still times in a dicey tree when yer boys cringe?


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## John Stewart (Oct 13, 2004)

Ive lost the boys for awhile a couple of times! 
Later
John


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

chucky you cant let that beat you,dont go in with plans etc just go climb it take it down youll feel alot better for it,if you were working for big orange or similar youd get paid your bowl of rice and cup of water to do it,just apreciate the challenge presented to you.i dont want to sound like a tree god or yoda but thats as easy as they come in a decent sized tree


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## Tree Machine (Oct 14, 2004)

*I'm also glad you didn't lock the keys in the truck*

I think what Chucky is saying is that once up in the tree, you look around, you consider the equipment you've got, the time, manpower, cleanup, and you weigh it against the paycheck. You clearly know you are about to work your butt off for not very much money .

Gosh, thanks for sharing your wisdom and foresight with us. I have no doubt that if the tree had a $2,000 price tag, you'd be writing us with pics of the successful takedown.

Good job in not taking on the suffering. Life is too short.


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> * dont go in with plans etc just go climb it take it down youll feel alot better for it, just apreciate the challenge presented to you. thats as easy as they come in a decent sized tree *


Aussie, take another look at that tearout wound at the main fork, willya? I enjoy a challenge too, but I've seen too many trees fail to hang my butt in every tree I see. Especially without a plan.

I'm sure you're safer on the job than you just were on the keyboard, or you wouldn't be able to write. Or breathe. Or anything.


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

are we saying if the moneys right forget the trees faults?this tree had a permit for removal beacause a similar fault,i didnt think it was a concern but the owner did.

i should have taken a picture of the sugar gum in the yard it had a small scar with a minute braket fungi which another tree co had said needed craning out


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## Lumberjack (Oct 14, 2004)

I have a different veiw about walking because you underbid the job and got it.

Refusing to do the job because you underbid hurts your name as a reputable tree service provider (in the customers eyes). Recently I underbid a tree hugely, dont know wtf i was thinking when I bid it. However, that big ole pine has now been slain, and I have moved on. I guess it comes from pride for keeping your word.... similar to the power of language in ancient times. Something I say normally becomes reality, regardless of the strugles to get there.


It sounds to me that the tree isnt quite as far past your percieved abilities as it sounds, but you are walking because of the lack of profit. 


I have walked from 1 job, it was when I first started and bid 300 dollars to remove a huge pine. Why did I decline? Saftey reasons (the profit part made it easier on my mind), the tree was so big, my lanyard I had then wouldnt reach around it, and it was near high voltage lines. Live and learn. Never have walked since.

How much did you bid if I may ask?


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## fmueller (Oct 14, 2004)

Gald to hear I'm not alone. I was going to prune some large brances off a Walnut next to a house and hanging over a fence. I just had my 18 yr. old son as a groundie. I was going to chunk down the branch in peices (the one hanging over a new fence) til I realized (after I got into the tree) the size of the first chunk was to big for my groundie to lower with out getting sling shot o'er the top of the house! Nothing around to take a wrap on. So lacking the needed help I backed out. Called the guy and explained it to him. He was O.K. with it. The job is still there, cept even if I could find more help I would'nt feel right going back to him. Its frustrating but better safe and embarrased than sorry or bunged up. (Granted, I'm a weekend hack).


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## NeTree (Oct 14, 2004)

fmueller, sounds like a port-a-wrap woulda saved the day.


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## fmueller (Oct 14, 2004)

That would have done it. Maybe that should be next on my wish list. Or maybe I should just stick to puny jobs. I've looked at three jobs I've turned down cause I don't have the equipment or insurance. (Go ahead, flame). I have been sticking to small stuff with practically zero chance of destroying anything valuable. I turned down a big dead oak that woulda been nice but the lady did'nt want it to dent her asphalt driveway which was the only way to take it. Plus it looked too crappy to climb. Looked at another monster silver maple that they originally wanted pruned but then wanted removed. Har, me, my boy and a chainsaw, and a ranger pickup -think not. Whats funny is they would have let me try it! It sure seems there is plenty of work out there. Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with walking away from a job if your not comfortable with it. Its just obviously better to study the situation beforehand to make sure you don't get in over your head.


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## fmueller (Oct 14, 2004)

Whuutt!?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 14, 2004)

> I don't think there is anything wrong with walking away from a job if your not comfortable with it.


Personally, I've never walked from a job. My favorite jobs of all time are the ones where other tree guys walk, and I come in for the 'special events' work.

I love the level of challenge, but I truly hate having to work my arse off in a super technical, life risking takedown just so at the end to find you coulda done better pruning dogwoods and crabs that day.

Lumberjack mentions credibility issues. Nothing douches a climber's credibility worse than carrying through with dangerous work, insufficiently equipped when the people on the ground can all sense potential doom.

Like Aussie said, this is really a straight-forward medium-big tree, from the standpoint of the takedown. 4-6 hours. The cleanup, however, is a bigger, much bigger issue.

I woulda just gone ahead and done the tree. I woulda lost my butt. This makes you smarter than me.


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 14, 2004)

I think mr. skwerl is  about the fact that any time you have a tree trunk you have a place to take a wrap--just walk around the tree with the rope in your hand. My 14 yr old could do it, so your 18 yr old can.
So anytime you're in a tree you have a place to make a wrap. Yes gizmoes are better for the rope and for control, but they are not necessary.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 14, 2004)

As Rocky says, there was definitely a place to a take a wrap, with or without a Port-a.

Sorry I screwed up the image rotation on the last pic.


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## Treeman14 (Oct 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *LMFAO @ 'nowhere to take a wrap'.  *



Maybe they took out the big stuff first.


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## DadF (Oct 14, 2004)

We have a Portawrap but I think we've only used it a couple of times. It's just too easy to take a wrap around the trunk, plus we can work from one side to the other without having to reset the portawrap. I am looking at a rescue rack and wondering why we couldn't be using one with some webbing double wrapped around the tree. Could 'biner on anywhere then and use the rack. Got one on order and will try it as soon as it gets here and we do another takedown.


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## BigJohn (Oct 14, 2004)

No comment


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## NeTree (Oct 14, 2004)

Sorry... but the "no insurance" issue outweighs all.


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## DadF (Oct 14, 2004)

I didn't start doing side jobs until I had insurance-it took awhile to find someone to cover a side business but I wouldn' t work without it.


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## fmueller (Oct 14, 2004)

Back to the original thread start, I was hack enough to know to walk away. (I won't even try to explain the wrap thing).


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## Tree Machine (Oct 14, 2004)

*Don't confuse yourself with pollution*

'Hack' is more about low quality tree work, minimal if any personal protective equipment, no insurance and lowballing to scrunge work from legitimates like ourselves.

You left the job for another tree service. That is 'Un' hack, in my eyes and no reason to walk away with tail between the legs. You chose safety and sensibility over macho male instinct. You set a good, responsible example for your son and all of us, and you've moved on to the next job. Nutt'n wrong at all with that.


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## tophopper (Oct 14, 2004)

Im with lumberjack on this one, sounds like you walked from the tree cause you realized it was not going to be profitable and youve bitten off more than you can chew. 
Walking because your incapable is one thing but because you blew the bid is just plain wrong. Everyone here has started into a big job and at some point realized youve screwed yourself, but it is simply bad ethics to walk because of that. Suck it up, and get the job done. Ive walked away from maybe 2 or 3 trees in my life, money had nothing to do with them.
For your reputation and integrity, I hope the money had nothing to do with your decision.

On a side note-- how can taking a wrap around a tree be any easier than using a porty?


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## Abbershay (Oct 14, 2004)

700.00 seems very very cheap for that tree, am i wrong in thinking it should be about 1200.00 ?

and if ts bid 700 what did you bid it at? ghee it would cost abotu 200.00 just in dumping charges for the wood.

one more thing ,if you dont have the eq. perhaps you might want to consider renting a lift and incorporating it into your bid.

you could have went back the the owner and said its just risky without the lift then rented the lift and increased your bid. This way the homeowner can see your honesty and you will still get the job and with a lift you will make far more my as it increases your speed .


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## BigJohn (Oct 14, 2004)

I agree 700 is way low. Not for the condition just the size and amount of material to be removed. Around here 2500 to 3000 dollar range would be more appropriate.


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm not sure about the ethics of leaving an underbid job to someone with a bucket truck. I haven't felt ashamed about doing that exact same thing, and haven't see any drop in the business's reputation. What's wrong with admitting a mistake?? Is it ethics or ego that prevents one from letting the next bidder do it?

Integrity, that's defined individually--I don't feel right about removing trees that deliver value to their owner, others don't seem bothered at all.

As far as wood dumping, red maple is excellent for turning if it's not rotten--have you talked to local woodturners who make bowls etc? I get my maple hauled for free, and sometimes get some bowls in barter too.


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

$700 id be there half day job with the stump LMAO at the wrap bit but ,i wouldnt be hanging any part of that tree


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## tophopper (Oct 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *I'm not sure about the ethics of leaving an underbid job to someone with a bucket truck. I haven't felt ashamed about doing that exact same thing, and haven't see any drop in the business's reputation. What's wrong with admitting a mistake?? Is it ethics or ego that prevents one from letting the next bidder do it?
> 
> *


Dont you think that if you give some a price to do a job and they hire you, you should honor your bid and do the work? A safety issue is one thing, but to back out because you made an error in pricing? 
How would you feel if you hired someone to sand your hardwood floors, they arrived, got all set up and then backed down because of an error in pricing? Then they said "sorry, maybe you can take one of the other bids?" 
Admit the mistake, maybe they'll offer you more once your done and they see how hard you've worked to care for their property, and they realize the value of your service.
Ego has nothing to do with it, I just dont think its your decision that the next bidder can do the work,it is the client's decision, but guess what they've hired you! 

What kind of value does your bid have to the client, if you can back out at any given time because of your error?


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *I'm not sure about the ethics of leaving an underbid job to someone with a bucket truck. I haven't felt ashamed about doing that exact same thing,
> 
> i dont get it how can you underbid a tree job?your only getting paid for labour,$700 easily covers that so be happy you have the work:angel:*


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## tophopper (Oct 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *i dont get it how can you underbid a tree job?your only getting paid for labour,$700 easily covers that so be happy you have the work:angel: *



 

aren't there many more expenses to consider covering, if you're only make enough to cover labor, it is underbid.


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

refering to that tree,1 hour climbing @$100pr hr,chipping at say $200 cut wood into wheels $200 leaving $200


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## BigJohn (Oct 14, 2004)

I don't understand why it took getting up into the tree halfway to discover you didn't ask for enough money on it. What did you originally think. How long did you think it would take what part isn't worth it?, putting it on the ground or getting rid of it? Something smells fishy around here. What did you end up doing that day. Did you make more than 700 that day?


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## BigJohn (Oct 14, 2004)

I guess I am lucky to have the resources that I do, a great ground crew, awesome chipper, good rope man and sharp saws. With kinda backing I'd been calling for a wood pick up around 10 a.m. and been getting onto the stump.


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## Chucky (Oct 14, 2004)

Well, I accepted the job for a lower price than I’d normally bid as a favor for my boss, and I looked at the tree last winter, when it was leafless. When I showed up yesterday, I was surprised to see how little foliar growth it had, and I saw the tree was in greater decline than I had thought last winter. When I got up the tree, aside from the realization that I had a lot of big wood to work, I also started having reservations about my TIP. I got wondering about it, especially should I have had to swing back to it from the big lateral over the road. 

If the tree was fairly vigorous, I could have done the tree, as I've done bigger, but then again, there’d have been no reason for me to remove a vigorous tree unless it was severely storm damaged. I guess it was the combination of the sheer bulk of the tree and it’s decline that made me walk. I just didn't _feel_ right in this tree. It was not a money issue. 


Lumberjack & Tophopper: Well, it was a lesson well learned to be much more careful about bids in the future. But I'd never walk from a job because I didn't think it was paying me enough.

Lumberjack: The job was $375.

Mike Maas: It’s 250 _inches_ of snow, not feet!


Now, I’ve gotta go get my “mind right” for the next job, as Butch puts it.


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## BigJohn (Oct 14, 2004)

So what would it have taken to get the job done? more money or a crane or just a bucket truck?


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## Chucky (Oct 14, 2004)

BigJohn,

Like fmueller, I do tree work on the side to supplement my meager income at my regular job. I got out of production tree work in my late 30's because it was kicking my butt, and I wasn't getting any younger. I know there's a handful of full-time climbers on this site my age and older -- and more power to them. But for me having a full-time "normal" job, and doing treework on the side at my own pace and at my own bidding is where it's at.


Chucky


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## BigJohn (Oct 14, 2004)

I see I get the feeling you were more in the position of wanting to do favor for someone. Thats a huge favor for someone in your position and amount resources. Keep it small and you can make a killing that way too. I too sometimes have a hard time saying no. I think your heart just wasnt into it and why should it. Don't sweat it. I personaly been laying back and takeing it easy. I like my nights and weekends off. Don't over due it.


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## NeTree (Oct 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tophopper _
> *
> 
> aren't there many more expenses to consider covering, if you're only make enough to cover labor, it is underbid. *



Not really. Fuel, yes. But obviously normal overhead such as insurance doesn't apply.

I can see it.


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## Lumberjack (Oct 14, 2004)

I couldnt give a bid from the pics because I cant see the LZ but for me, to get everything from the stump up removed would cost between $75-125 dollars.

Thats about all i can say on the price, the tree doesnt look that bad, tops I think the top for me to charge would be around $1000, depending on the LZ. Is that a refrigerator beside the driveway? Is the driveway gravel or paved?


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## Chucky (Oct 14, 2004)

I appreciate the advice, BigJohn -- along with everybody else’s – I’m much obliged.

I’d much rather make posts of my accomplishments on this site rather than my shortcomings, but I got thinking about the newbies on this site, and I felt compelled to embarrass myself for their sake. And for an ego-driven business such as this, it shore ain’t EASY!



-Chucky
Popple Topple TREE SERVICE


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## Tree Machine (Oct 14, 2004)

Rock on. We like newbies.


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## pbtree (Oct 15, 2004)

The smart man knows when to walk away, to live and fight another day.  

It's times like this that the most foolish thing you can do is worry about what anyone else is going to think about you. That sort of foolishness should have died in us before we leave our teens...


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## murphy4trees (Oct 15, 2004)

There is nothing wrong with making a mistake unless you don't learn anything from it... Then it is a wasted opportunity...

the number one thing to learn is to keep your prices high... This work is hard and dangerous... We all deserve to get paid well...

From the sound of your prices and situation you might well be able to double your prices... do half the work (or more) with less time and expense and make just as much or more $... Think $65-100/man/hour when bidding and even if you slightly underestimate the time you should be making $50/m/h.... If not... stay home with your family...

You might be surprised that clients may even have more respect for you when you when you keep your prices high... 

I used to have a reputation for being the lowbidder on just about every job years ago... Now I smile and congratulate myself when I overbid the big boys with their shiny trucks... Soimetimes by plenty... 

But that's hard to do with Big Jon's comapany... NFW is that a $3K tree.... No way in the real world..... but BJ's company has a unique reputation and clientelle which commands a hefty premium... He told me yesterday that they have to put plywood down on driveways before putting their under CDL chip truck on them (sometimes).... Not a speck of cereal for my dog... But still not $3K and done by 10 AM...

Also I wouldn't worry about backing out of the deal... Not the highest integrity thing to do, but certainly acceptable by most in todays world... I've had a number of clients back out of stump jobs in Fl, even after signing contracts.... That doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy, but that's OK... I accept it.... And I believe they have the legal right to do so... Just don't try not paying me once I've done the job!


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> * the number one thing to learn is to keep your prices high... This work is hard and dangerous... We all deserve to get paid well... *


Amen and Glory Hallelujah! Say on, Brother!


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## Tree Machine (Oct 15, 2004)

Right there, treeCo, is where I lack integrity. I may defer my lesser jobs, and opt in for one with more meat, slotting someone who's been waiting a week over someone who's been waiting 4 or 5.

I'm also lame in that I'll wake up, have coffeee, and see what kind of 'mood' I'm in. I'll almost always go for a job that has some hairy scary aspect to the climb.

Then there's days when I just feel artsy phartzy, the day is peaceful and I don't feel like any noise. I go work out with the Silkys and pole pruner.

Then there's the weather, choosing your next job by how the skies look.

Sometimes I'll choose one over another because it's closer to home.

Wayyyyy down the list of factors is how long someone's been waiting. 

Elizabeth thinks I should do them in the order in which they've called, and mebbe she's right. But I'm terribly spoiled and I like the liberty of choice I have.


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## tophopper (Oct 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Not really. Fuel, yes. But obviously normal overhead such as insurance doesn't apply.
> 
> *




So Eric- where does normal overhead apply?


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## Nickrosis (Oct 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *see what kind of 'mood' I'm in.*


Funny, I never figured you for being that kind of guy.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2004)

*moody man*

I'm pretty much always in a good mood; just have to determine if its a big canopy good mood, or a takedown good mood or an ornamental pruning good mood.

Shipments from Sherrill _always_ puts me in a new-gear good mood, which means I'll choose a job based on where I can burn-in the new tools. 

I'm perpetually in the mood for something that imvolves a climb, unless its raining lightly, and then the pole pruners tend to work better, keep my ropes out of the filth.

In our business, no towo trees alike, and there's a tree for every mood.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 16, 2004)

That's good to hear.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

New gear should put ANYONE in a good mood!

It's like xmas every delivery.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2004)

*getting off-topic.....*

OK, back to Chucky's takedown. I stretched here to learn some photoshop methods to do a virtual takedown.

A couple things must be established, I will do this tree in my normal _modus operundi_, which is to do it without any ground help, and we'll go SRT, for no other reason than I'm in the mood to do SRT today. I will be using spikes on this job.

The fridge is not in my way, but if someone's around meebbe we'll wrassle it away. If the car had to be there, it wouldn't be a big deal either. The kill zone will be to the street side of the trunk.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2004)

*next*

next I'd do this:


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## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2004)

Then the tree would be looking like this:


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## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2004)

*And finally....*

After a bite to eat, and make sure the 395 is sharp, head back up, and it's all dice-a-roni from here.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2004)

*the key element*

It woulda taken most of a day, but it would have been a thousand and some change, so I don't care if it takes til dark.

The firewood guy was the key element in this scenario.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 19, 2004)

*Another semi-technical*

Here's one, very similar. I have a 6" capacity chipper, so often there's no sense in droppping stuff during phase one over 6" diameter, otherwise I'll have to cut it up on the ground, and I try to minimize that.

With this tree I used the Bigshot, as a way of answering my clients' question about how do I set a rope if I can't climb it up there with spikes. Instead of putting on spurs, I set the rope as per the images, and ascended up spikeless and took out the crown. 

Then I came down and called the firewood guy to see what he'd be doing a couple hours from now.


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## Matt Follett (Oct 19, 2004)

TM I'm curious in phase one of chuckys problem... why you would strip out the crown of the lead you are tying into first? I tend to leave it, particularily limbs on it untill the end. I tend to be a believer in the "mass dampening" camp, so that is the main reason why I prefer some "stuff" on my lead. If you don't mind, I might start a thread/poll on this as I see alot of advantage in leaving some brush on your TIP...


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## NeTree (Oct 19, 2004)

FWIW, I agree with that, and would go a step further to say it also dampens rigging points, too.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 19, 2004)

Youse guys make it look complicated. And, I almost had a flashback on one of TreeMachine's attachments.


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## Matt Follett (Oct 19, 2004)

Edit: MB beat me to puch on the reply

Yeah for sure...

Granted In TM's plan he wasn't rigging at all, but the spar would get a bit bouncy moving around...

I have gotten to the point were I ensure there is brush on the spar if I have to rig it out while tied in to itself, particularily when tipping over the top.. feels far less shaky, even if you have a good smooth rope runner.

Threadjacking for sure, but this could be a good cause for thought, debate....


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## Tree Machine (Oct 19, 2004)

The intent is not to threadjack, or draw attention to myself, or preach some superior way. I'm merely trying to show the newbies that you don't have to rig every big limb down with ropes. 

I like rigging down limbs, but I've found it is faster and takes half the manpower doing it dice-a-roni.

If I had a 12" diameter chipper, my approach would be so very different. 

This job was $1,650, I did it alone, except for the firewood guy taking away two loads. One day, Half tank of gas in the 346, 2 tanks in the 395, half hour of chipping. Probably 3 or 4 dollars in gas. 

Just something to think about.

I strip the spire I'm tying into to lessen the chances of my rope hanging up, and that the brush is going to have to come off regardless. I'm not going to climb 'through' it to achieve some insignificant damping effect. In the chess game, I had planned to swing over from middle stem to the street stem, and then back all the way across to the stem on the car side. To do this, your rope needs to have a clear line, no obstructions.

I know what you mean, dampening, but my 165 (73 Kg) and flying pendulum moves probably wouldn't have that much effect on a topless post. If you're rigging off it, I see your point and consider it to be valid.


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## Matt Follett (Oct 19, 2004)

For sure I agree with the "capellini and meat balls" aproach with limited ground crew, over rigging, to much work for one person to handle big stuff on the ground.

And I do for sure agree with the clean running line, far easier to move around. I just ponder these things when stems get oh-so-shaky and I wonder if we really have any idea of what we have just done to the balance of the thing, and where it might go?


Edit, Oh TM, I didn't mean you were threadjacking, just me and my mutterings, took it else where to be mulled over


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## Chucky (Jul 21, 2005)

Hey TM buddy, Judas! That's one helluva slice and dice job. Dammn! That'll be around in the AS front page for a long spell. And thanks for the macabre pics -- if I've ever wanted to go vegan, the time is now! 

Well, it just goes to show you even the best can get hurt. Hey buddy, it can happen to anyone. I'm really glad you're in good spirits, though I can't imagine ol' Tree Machine being in anything but. You da man, TM. You've freely given me lots of good advice when I've asked for it, and most of all you've given me inspiration and confidence when I really needed it. Remember this pic you made? It was YOU that made me go back to it and DO it. 

Speedy recovery, TM.


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## stehansen (Jul 22, 2005)

I once bid $1900.00 on a rather large cottonwood tree in a back yard and there was fences on 3 sides of it and all I had to help me was my 80 year old Father. I got up in the tree and started roping down wood and most of the limbs were hanging a long ways from the LZ so when they came down we would have to raise them up as they would hang up on some surrounding trees. I would cut 3 or 4 limbs and have to go down the tree and help my Dad on the ground. After the first day I knew for sure that I was in over my head. I called a couple of other guys in the biz and they were all booked up for months. My Father talked me into just calming down and getting some more help on the ground and taking it one limb at a time. It took way too long, but we got it done, I got paid and everyone was happy, and I was one tree wiser.


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## Ekka (Jul 22, 2005)

Gee, good resurection of an old thread Chucky, well done.

I think having read it from start to finish a good way to some it up for the tree guys is with this question ... 

How does an ant eat an elephant? ... _one bite at a time_.


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## Chucky (Jul 22, 2005)

Thanks, Ekka. Actually the thread didn't quite finish there, but here:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=15564&page=63&pp=15

I'd decided after all the input and support from AS members, and that even though I have a whole lot more ground experience than climbing experience, I could still do the tree -- as long as I did it safely and with patience. 

Of course Tree Machine, a consummate solo arborist, made it look so easy, I just HAD to give it another shot to restore my confidence and redeem myself. And after all the advice, it did turn out almost easy.

P.S. Stehansen, I really admire your patience and perserverance in that huge Cottonwood takedown with your 80-year old father. Now that's an ant eating an elephant!


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## stehansen (Jul 22, 2005)

I don't know if I communicated very well but I was trying to tell you that I was in a similar situation and my reaction to the situation was pretty much the same as your reaction to your situation. It took my Dad (he always comes through) to get me calmed down and to see things in perspective. I'm glad to hear that you completed the job. Your reputation will be the better for it. 

PS I only had just my dad for help that first day, after that I got some more help.


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2005)

Jim @ TREE SERVICES magazine here. I'd like to use this thread in the next issue of the magazine. If anyone has objections, please let me know and I'll leave your posts out.

thanks.

I like this one because it connects to so many issues at the same time ... including the "human" part of the work.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2005)

I like it, Jim. Chucky's the hero. Everyone contributed really good stuff, issues we've all worked through. It just got a good spotlight.

I am so happy, Chucky, that you took it on. When you 'stretch' the way you did, you grow. You learn. You move past your self-imposed limits. I can feel the success in your words.

I'm just glad you came here for advice. You took that risk, and we hit you from all sides. You sorted it out, digested it, and went back for a second look. I imagine you laid awake at night thinkin about that sucker and it just ate at you.

I'm so glad the digital takedown helped. I do that sort of plan in my head before every tree job, looking, studying going through all the motions in my head, assessing the tools needed, time required, and manpower. Once that 15 seconds is over, it's time to write the estimate.

You kicked it's butt. Go to the Tree Care EXPO in Columbus, OH. We will partake in a commercially available carbonated malt beverege together!

(P.S. Why did nobody ask about the testosterone tire? http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment_17342.php )


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## Chucky (Aug 17, 2005)

I have no objections, and I can’t express enough my appreciation for the advice and support from the helpful folks on this site. _But_, you may want to consider that many tree care professionals reading your magazine with reputable businesses will probably look askance at this tree job. This was a “buzzie” job that was underbid and performed by a person (me) with no insurance. Tree care professionals who pay a high premium for liability insurance and workers compensation, and who have a payroll to make week after week, don’t like to be underbid by “hacks.”

I don’t consider myself a hack, as I have formal degrees in both Urban Tree Management and Urban Forestry, I’m a Massachusetts State Certified Arborist, and I have a fair amount of climbing experience with a reputable tree service company. And I can’t think of any work I performed on that particular job that didn’t comply with ANSI Z133 standards.

Nonetheless, the underbidding and lack of insurance don’t make the job look professional, and many tree care professionals reading your magazine will legitimately have a gripe with that.

I remember in the early 1990s, a tree care magazine (either Arbor Age or TCI Magazine) featured a UMASS graduate in its cover story titled, “My First Takedown.” Pictured on the magazine’s cover, in full color and in glaring detail, was the student standing by the tree wearing completely inappropriate PPE. Then as the reader got into the text on the takedown, more improprieties emerged, including clear Z133 transgressions. 

The magazine was soon flooded with letters by outraged readers, and it turned into a major embarrassment, not only for the student and the magazine, but also for the UMASS Urban Forestry department.

So, I just want to give you fair warning of what kind of feedback you might get from your readers on this story. 

(-TM-, if I make it to Columbus you better know the carbonated malt beverages are on me! Same goes for Lumberjack, et al!)


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## woodchux (Aug 17, 2005)

stehansen said:


> I once bid $1900.00 on a rather large cottonwood tree in a back yard and there was fences on 3 sides of it and all I had to help me was my 80 year old Father. I got up in the tree and started roping down wood and most of the limbs were hanging a long ways from the LZ so when they came down we would have to raise them up as they would hang up on some surrounding trees. I would cut 3 or 4 limbs and have to go down the tree and help my Dad on the ground. After the first day I knew for sure that I was in over my head. I called a couple of other guys in the biz and they were all booked up for months. My Father talked me into just calming down and getting some more help on the ground and taking it one limb at a time. It took way too long, but we got it done, I got paid and everyone was happy, and I was one tree wiser.



Get yourself a rope-a-long...About $60. Great for lifting up those hangers.


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## treeguy347 (Aug 17, 2005)

TM, do you ever like to leave stubs as footholds?


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## Redbull (Aug 17, 2005)

Or more importantly...what's up with the testosterone tire?


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## pantheraba (Aug 17, 2005)

Chucky and TreeMachine...I just went back and read the whole thread...it is great! A real process working through a job that seemed too much and then finding a way to do it.

TM, your step by step plan for Chucky was great, a good example of how to just think it out and break it down into steps.

Chucky, it's cool that you went back and got it done.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2005)

Thanks Pantheraba. That's what we're here for, to help each other. I've received a lot more than I've given, so I still have some catchin up to do.

Do I ever leave stubs as footholds? If it's a big enough diameter to call firewood I do. The 'stub' would go out until the diameter is about the size of my wrist. Far side of that is chippable. Near side is firewood (I have a 6" capacity chipper). I almost always do a takedown in two distinct phases, crowning out, clean up, chip. Arrange firewood people, climb, dice-a-roni. I very much prefer to make firewood up in the tree.

Testosterone tire? You mean you want me to spill the beans on one of my most valuable low-tech innovations??? I don't know if there's room in this thread. It would be a blatant de-rail and a personal thread hijacking. Mebbe another time. This is Chucky's thread.


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## Steebow (Aug 18, 2005)

Wow What a great ride this has been!

TM Im gonna take a pic of every job and send it to you first (ha ha ) please include a the bid when u return it to me. Cant wait to learn about that tire.

Chucky you are not only brave for goin back to that tree but the starting this thread was the bravest of all I'll never forget waht I learned by reading it, thanks.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2005)

And also, I salute Chucky. You've inspired all of us


Steebow said:


> Cant wait to learn about that tire.


OK, the 'tire'. OK, this first pic is of a tire system I used for years. They are for absorbing the shock of bombed chunks. From up in the air, this system is pretty easy to hit. I also used it for felling, to give a 'bullsey' to the felled a log. Prevents lawn damage.

In the lower pic, I have a piece of carpet over the tires, but that only lasted a couple jobs. I replaced it with a mat of thick rubber, like that used in heavy-duty conveyor flooring. Anyway, the picture gives you the idea. The biner can be unhooked and the three dragged in a line.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2005)

The first pic is of a mishap where my right rear tire caught a curb, and by the time all the air was out I was in the middle of an intersection. I had to drive on through. I hung a right into a parking lot and when I did, the tire popped completely off the rim. I had to drive another 10 meters to get to a reasonable parking spot, or at least get the chipper pulled out of traffic. The result is what you see.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2005)

Being one to always make lemon out of lemonade I found the opportunity to, since I had to replace one rim, I'd replace both and since one tire was hosed, a new rear set of tires was in order.

So, after that $600 glass of lemonade I did end up with new rear rims, new rear tires and a spare tire on a rim. This is all good. I also had the toasted tire. 

The set of three from the previous pics had been pounded to oblivion over the course of a few years and needed replacing. My aim at bombing chunks had gotten really good in that time, so I decided to go from the set of three tires, down to one. I also had a couple smaller 12" utility trailer tires and I managed to stuff two 12 inchers inside of the one truck tire. Now I can make giant chunks actually 'bounce'. It's quite entertaining. 

Ladies and gentlemen, the 'Testosterone Tire'.


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## Steebow (Aug 18, 2005)

Iam not disappointed. That was worth the wait.
What kinda height do you get on those bounces?


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## Chucky (Aug 18, 2005)

You're too much, TM, with that big ol' tire.  And I'm much obliged for the kind accolades, my friend, and that goes to you other kind folks, too. I'm no "hero" though -- I know who the _real_ heros are -- but I know you're just using the term in your usual infectiously enthusiastic way of speaking and doing things. Been spying on your pics and it's good to see you're mending properly. You know I know you know how precipitously close you came to becoming a pile of mulch. You're the Tree Machine, not The Mulch Pile. And you better know we want to keep you that way.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2005)

Thanks, Chucky! I can see you modestly pushing the focus off yourself, but the fact remains that, you went back to the beast, _and you conquered!_


Steebow said:


> What kinda height do you get on those bounces?


 Depends on from what height dropped, the mass of the chunk and how directly you hit. Usually just a couple feet.


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## BigUglySquirrel (Aug 19, 2005)

Well sirs,

I hate to say it but I too have had a very similar situation. I didn't underbid the job, but it was over my head. After about 20 mins. in the canopy and working through the thing in my head, it was obvious....I was going to be the catalyst for something very bad if I attempted this tree. It killed me. It shamed me. It made me feel inferior. I had been climbing solo for over a year and this was the first job I had ever bailed on. (And the only to date) BUT, as I look back, I was honest with the homeowner about the stiuation. I learned that I was NOT superhuman, and I didn't cost the owner a ton of money or cause personal injury to myself or the men that depend on me to do no wrong. I kicked my ego to the side and did the right thing. So did you. Every tree you go into has the potential to alter the rest of your life. You take precautions. You choose men you can trust on the ground. You spend money on equipment that you stake your well-being on. None of it means anything if you don't have the brains and humility to know when you are in too deep. It's not about balls. It's not about money. It's about knowing and respecting what no one else knows or understands....your personal limitations. Kudos on a job well done.


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## BigUglySquirrel (Aug 19, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Being one to always make lemon out of lemonade I found the opportunity to, since I had to replace one rim, I'd replace both and since one tire was hosed, a new rear set of tires was in order.
> 
> So, after that $600 glass of lemonade I did end up with new rear rims, new rear tires and a spare tire on a rim. This is all good. I also had the toasted tire.
> 
> ...




Now that is a killer idea!!! Nice thinking!!


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## Tree Machine (Aug 19, 2005)

Maybe we should share it over at the 'inventions' thread, http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=24066. Maybe I should patent it and charge you millions  

Thanks for sharing your single walkaway story, Big Ugly. Well-said. That tree had to be a major son-of-a-gun.


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## Chucky (Aug 19, 2005)

BigUglySquirrel said:


> None of it means anything if you don't have the brains and humility to know when you are in too deep. It's not about balls. It's not about money. It's about knowing and respecting what no one else knows or understands....your personal limitations. Kudos on a job well done.



But, BUS, it _IS_ about balls, because it takes a lot of balls to admit you were wrong to bid the tree in the first place. At least we both showed up for the job, got into the tree, and made the assessment that the tree was too much before we made our decision. We suffered the embarrassment rapelling back down the tree in front of the groundmen, defeated. That takes balls. A lot of people might not have even bothered to show up and just blew the job off, making excuses for not doing it instead of admitting the truth.

The only reason I went back to do the job is because the tree was not in fact too much for me, maybe _almost_ too much, but not really too much for me. I knew in the back of my mind I had the expertise and equipment to do the job, I just got spooked for some reason. All it took was feedback from AS members to help make up my mind. And those who told me it was OK to walk I appreciate as much as those who told me to get back in the tree.


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