# Tips and advice for a felling worm...



## ms290 (Jan 26, 2010)

Worm- newest/most un-experienced hand on a rig.

I have some pics of me felling a tree. they are in no paricular order so just look at all and tell me what you think.


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## Burvol (Jan 26, 2010)

Picture #2

Square your body and legs up to the tree (chest facing not shoulder), open up your stance, lock that thumb around the bars and forget the sloped back cut.


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## ms290 (Jan 26, 2010)

Right. Is there a specific reason for locking the thumb? In the next few weeks ill take som pics of me falling some real trees. not just those little hickory trees like that. Maybe i can get a pic of me felling a big red oak. that would be a lot better than these little things here.


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## GNAR13 (Jan 26, 2010)

ms290 said:


> Is there a specific reason for locking the thumb?



Yeah it's safer. In the event of reactive force (kickback, etc.) you've got a better chance of keeping your grip on the handle in you've got your thumb wrapped all the way around.


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## ms290 (Jan 26, 2010)

GNAR13 said:


> Yeah it's safer. In the event of reactive force (kickback, etc.) you've got a better chance of keeping your grip on the handle in you've got your thumb wrapped all the way around.



ahh ok One minor detail i left out. Some of these pics were taken when i was not cutting. I actually stopped for that one because that was all the wedge i wanted in the tree.


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## ms290 (Jan 26, 2010)

Now that i go back and look i was not cutting in any of those pics.


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## Turkeyslayer (Jan 26, 2010)

Try cutting in the daylight, its easier to see what your doing. Also check out this site http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/felling.html
Lots of good info to be gleaned from that site. Be careful and try to get someone with experience to help you until you understand the basics of safe tree felling.


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## pucksaw (Jan 26, 2010)

Everyone has to start somewhere...........start with a helmet, and pants/chaps. Be careful.
Lots of info on this site.........Reading helps.


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## logging22 (Jan 26, 2010)

THUMB RAP!! And the stump is too high.


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## slowp (Jan 26, 2010)

logging22 said:


> THUMB RAP!! And the stump is too high.



Stump height is the least of your worries when starting out. That's all I'm going to say...


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## bullbuck (Jan 26, 2010)

when i first started cutting an old timer said if you survive the first two years you will probably make it.chainsaws are replaceable cutters are hard to come by


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## joesawer (Jan 26, 2010)

I agree with Slowp. stump height is not an issue yet.
And please get in the habit of wrapping your thumb around the handle bar every time all the time. It will eventually save you from very serious injury.


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## 460magnumMOD (Jan 26, 2010)

Just be safe and think about your cuts before you start them


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## mile9socounty (Jan 26, 2010)

You high stumped it. Not too uncommon. Thats about all I can say. Just keep practicing. Thats what it all comes down too. Or find someone with 20+ years experience and have them "learnt" you.


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## Gologit (Jan 27, 2010)

slowp said:


> Stump height is the least of your worries when starting out. That's all I'm going to say...



Yup. I'm not a big fan of book learning but I think you need some help. Get that book by Dent and read it. There's a lot of good information here on AS too, but I'd listen more to the professionals like Burvol, JacobJ, TarrzanTree, TreeSlingr, Tramp Bushler, and a few more that I'll probably catch hell for not mentioning.

Don't underestimate those little trees. They'll hurt you just as fast, and just as seriously, as a big one.

Take your time...you're still in school. And school is never really over.


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## ms290 (Jan 27, 2010)

mile9socounty said:


> You high stumped it. Not too uncommon. Thats about all I can say. Just keep practicing. Thats what it all comes down too. Or find someone with 20+ years experience and have them "learnt" you.



Ya i know its a high one. We leave them like that so we can find them later when we need too. We do go back and stump.


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## mile9socounty (Jan 27, 2010)

No need to get pissy this early in the morning. You asked for our advice. All it takes is practice. Keep plugging along and you will get better. Oh and leaving the stumps. Thats a good idea. It would make it easier to find later on.


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## ms290 (Jan 27, 2010)

mile9socounty said:


> No need to get pissy this early in the morning. You asked for our advice. All it takes is practice. Keep plugging along and you will get better. Oh and leaving the stumps. Thats a good idea. It would make it easier to find later on.



Ya sorry about that. To early in the mornin to do much of anything.

As for the stump idea that was the idea. seems to work well. leave them waist high and you can see them when your pushing you brush up like we have to do.


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## slowp (Jan 27, 2010)

OK, I have to say more.

You asked for advice, said you were a "worm" then explained that a worm is an inexperienced person.

Now, folks are giving you advice, doing so politely and you start getting hissy and defensive. That's what big red typed words mean to me.

Look, everybody has been a beginner. Listen. Take the advice and do so politely. My gawd, I've learned so much just by being a fly on the wall out in the cutting units. 

Keep the mouth closed, (in this case keep the fingers still) and keep the eyes and ears open. There are some very good fallers giving you advice. You are lucky. You are young and we'd like for you to have the chance to get old. 

And believe me, having that thumb hooked around the bar helps immensely when that saw starts bucking back at you. Thumbs are a good thing.


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## ms290 (Jan 27, 2010)

slowp said:


> OK, I have to say more.
> 
> You asked for advice, said you were a "worm" then explained that a worm is an inexperienced person.
> 
> ...



You sir are correct. Had my 20 in kickin back a little cuz i got lazy and tired. finally just made myself go sit down drink some water eat a bite.


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## ms290 (Jan 27, 2010)

pucksaw said:


> Everyone has to start somewhere...........start with a helmet, and pants/chaps. Be careful.
> Lots of info on this site.........Reading helps.



Got chaps somewhere. gonna go find the darn things. need to get some new ones though. ones i got are probly 10 or more years old. I dont have a forestry helmet but i got a hardhat to help.


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## Burvol (Jan 27, 2010)

ms290 said:


> You sir are correct. Had my 20 in kickin back a little cuz i got lazy and tired. finally just made myself go sit down drink some water eat a bite.



You little lumber jack!


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## ms290 (Jan 27, 2010)

Burvol said:


> You little lumber jack!



I wish. im just a wanna be. 

Some day i would like to go and log up in the PNW or Canada. sure would be a lot fun.


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## Burvol (Jan 27, 2010)

ms290 said:


> I wish. im just a wanna be.
> 
> Some day i would like to go and log up in the PNW or Canada. sure would be a lot fun.



I was just teasing ya bro. It's alright with us. You know you are brave and honest for posting like this. Keep your mind open and honest with us and you'll keep learning. More time with that saw in your paws is what you need the most. After you get more jobs, go bigger on the saw and really start focusing on how sharp you can file your chians. Like dangerous to look at sharp. That will help you more than most anyother thing you could buy.


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## ms290 (Jan 27, 2010)

I already file. Im not great but i can hold my own. Was filing the other day and just happened to catch my chain as i moved away from my work bench and SLICE i was bleeding. Just dumb luck is what ill call it cuz im not real good at it. Ill take me some pics and show yall what i can do in another thread.


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## 056 kid (Jan 27, 2010)

It can be a good idea to wear a glove when filing. My right hand full of tiny little scars from slipping with the file . .

but the best thing you can do is run the saw, there is no substitute for that.


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## slowp (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm not a sir. Nor a faller. Merely an annoying Forester. 

How was that for a lecture? I've been told I'm gonna be training a youngun this summer. So I need to practice being wise and cranky. I remember thinking the guys that were the age I am now as being old and cranky. 
I'd rather be wise than old but cranky is fine.

This morning I was wandering around in the brush with the faller/hooktender/rigging crew guy. He had set his saw down on a stump. For some reason, I thought the saw was a limb and grabbed it--we were in the snow and things were slippery. I let go before any damage was done to my hand.


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## Oldtimer (Jan 27, 2010)

A saw that is super sharp can also be a problem. You can back-cut too much too fast if you're a newbie..

My best advice: When the tree starts to go over, LOOK UP. Stay near the butt, don't run out a pre-selected escape route. That's asking to get clobbered. Stay 10-12' away as it tips, watch the butt, be ready to LEAP, and after it's 3/4 of the way down, LOOK UP. And be ready to LEAP.
The real danger is from limbs being flug back at you from 40' up.
If I see you run a saw without the left hand thumb hooked in a tight grip around the bar, I'll whack you on the knuckles with a hardwood stick.


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## HitchC&L (Jan 27, 2010)

You look like your learning, and your definitely motivated to be part of the wood industry.

My advice is to invest in a good set of protective gear. Chaps, helmet with face screen, ear protection, gloves. Things happen way to fast out in the woods to be caught without safety gear.

Also, try to find someone whos been felling, or doing tree work professionally for a long time, and see if they can take you under their wing. Theres no better way to learn than to watch someone who really knows what they are doing.

Hang around the forums and read everything you can. Theres tons of great info on here from real pro's, all you have to do is read.

:greenchainsaw:


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## 056 kid (Jan 27, 2010)

learn enough on your own, then try & get a job. Somthing like hooking chokers & carrying chit around.

If you wanna do it bad enough, you will find yourself doing it before long if you try hard. just dont lie about your skills, or you aint gona get far, I saw alot of guys work for less than a month, hell some less than a week cause they couldnt walk the walk. .


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## redprospector (Jan 27, 2010)

bullbuck said:


> when i first started cutting an old timer said if you survive the first two years you will probably make it.chainsaws are replaceable cutters are hard to come by



That "old timer" wouldn't have been Earl, would it? 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jan 27, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> A saw that is super sharp can also be a problem. You can back-cut too much too fast if you're a newbie..
> 
> My best advice: When the tree starts to go over, LOOK UP. Stay near the butt, don't run out a pre-selected escape route. That's asking to get clobbered. Stay 10-12' away as it tips, watch the butt, be ready to LEAP, and after it's 3/4 of the way down, LOOK UP. And be ready to LEAP.
> The real danger is from limbs being flug back at you from 40' up.
> If I see you run a saw without the left hand thumb hooked in a tight grip around the bar, I'll whack you on the knuckles with a hardwood stick.



A good sharp chain isn't a problem. I bet more folks have been hurt trying to hack down trees with a less than "super sharp" chain, than with a sharp one.

Andy


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## bitzer (Jan 27, 2010)

My advice to you is, never turn you back on a tree you are felling or while it is falling. Make sure you've got some clear paths and back peddle as the tree starts to tip. Always look up. Watch the stem as it starts to tip and then the crown and over again as your backing up. Don't turn tail and run. You can't see whats coming if you are not looking.

Also stay in the cut as it starts to tip if you want the tree to come off of the stump. Keep an eye on your sights as your doing that. Its really easy to pull on the saw one way or another and then you've cut too much hinge on one side where you didn't want to and the tree pulls off of your intended direction. You can learn how to swing a tree by cutting hinge and with various other cuts, but get a lot of them on the ground first. Take pride in your stumps. Look them over and see how the tree reacted and how it fell and where it landed according to your stump and the cuts you made. 

Always look up. Analyze the hell out of your tree before you do anything. Leans, crown weight, widow makers, soft spots in the stem, whatever. Clear paths and your work area. Read A LOT in this forum, old and new.


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## bullbuck (Jan 27, 2010)

redprospector said:


> That "old timer" wouldn't have been Earl, would it?
> 
> Andy



Earl who?haha,but of course that guy had alot of patience when i was a rook,noone else did.sure miss that guy


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## Metals406 (Jan 27, 2010)

All good advice so far. . . I'll add:

Don't push yourself past your experience level -- healthy fear/respect for how much a tree can kill you is a good thing. Trees usually don't hurt you just a little, or just kill you part ways.

Stay on flat ground for now, sloped ground adds many new elements to the game. 

I was falling some Larch the other evening, and I had a close call. I was on steep ground, and the trees had a head lean up hill. It's hard to move fast on snow/ice on the steeps -- it makes it harder to get clear.

There was a belly in the hill, and I knew the butt was going to kick out. I had a hard time moving back on the slope (I should have had my caulks on), and I wasn't far enough back. The tree went over, the butt kicked back, took a second bounce -- and hit me square in the shins.

I went for a little ride down the hill, and so did the saw. Luckily it wasn't a larger tree. . . The only thing that was bruised was my shins and ego -- and some blood for good measure.

Point is, even when you see stuff coming, you can't see stuff coming. capisce?

Make a clear escape route, don't saw under the lean if you can help it, Look up look out!, wear some safety gear, and get some good tutelage if possible.

Good luck!


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## 056 kid (Jan 27, 2010)

Ya, when your in timber larger than your bar, make all your cuts under the lean first before you cut any pull wood so you dont have to worry abour going back under the tree to get her to go.


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## Tree Pig (Jan 27, 2010)

IMHO if your not doing production felling high stumping it is no big deal and may actually be safer. As discussed some ppe, correct stance and grip on the saw is important. Also in one pic of the notch the notch looked a little small to me. I would think that shallow would run the risk of the notch closing down too early and the stalk could then dance on the stump and do weird and dangerous stuff.


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## ms290 (Jan 28, 2010)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> IMHO if your not doing production felling high stumping it is no big deal and may actually be safer. As discussed some ppe, correct stance and grip on the saw is important. Also in one pic of the notch the notch looked a little small to me. I would think that shallow would run the risk of the notch closing down too early and the stalk could then dance on the stump and do weird and dangerous stuff.



Yes that notch was a bit shallow. I cant remember why i dont that. The camera plays tricks too i think it was a good bit deeper than it looks. I do watch for widow makers and the like. Now the back peddling is gonna be a new one ill have to start on. PPE i do have but its limited at best. Ill start saving for some new stuff.


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## Burvol (Jan 28, 2010)

ms290 said:


> Yes that notch was a bit shallow. I cant remember why i dont that. The camera plays tricks too i think it was a good bit deeper than it looks. I do watch for widow makers and the like. Now the back peddling is gonna be a new one ill have to start on. PPE i do have but its limited at best. Ill start saving for some new stuff.



Don't just back peddle off the stump of every tree. It's not what to do.


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## bitzer (Jan 28, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Don't just back peddle off the stump of every tree. It's not what to do.



I agree with you there. Just trying to push how critical it is too keep an eye on the tree at all times. Back peddling can put you on your ass in a hurry if that is all a guy does. You gotta look where you are going too! You've got a lot tougher ground to stomp than I do too though.


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## ms290 (Jan 28, 2010)

Burvol let me see if i got this correct. 

Before i fall the tree take a good look and walk around. look for potential hazards like widow makers and and holes i might trip in when backing off from the tree.

When falling said tree watch the mid and upper sections to see whats going on. Wedge it to keep from getting stuck and having it fall back in the wrong direction.


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## Turkeyslayer (Jan 28, 2010)

You should always walk around at least three sides (I know a tree is round) of a given tree looking up to determine lean, hazards (widowmakers,entanglement in other trees, power lines, dead limbs in the fall zone, etc), weight of the top, and wind direction. Clear out your escape paths good, and get a mental picture of said paths. When cutting the back cut I will alternate looking at the top section of the tree, the kerf of the backcut, and the gunning sites on the saw, making sure I am in lining up my hinge for the fall direction. If possible (determined by the size of the tree) I will put a wedge in the backcut, not driving it in but tapping it in lightly. When the tree starts to tip I will look up while retreating to a safe distance. Be aware that branches can be thrown back at you by not only the tree you are falling, but surounding trees that may be hit by the falling tree. Also when the tree is on the ground take a good look above you before moving into look at the downed tree. Many times there are residual branches broke off and hanging above.

Stay safe


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## ms290 (Jan 28, 2010)

Turkeyslayer said:


> You should always walk around at least three sides (I know a tree is round) of a given tree looking up to determine lean, hazards (widowmakers,entanglement in other trees, power lines, dead limbs in the fall zone, etc), weight of the top, and wind direction. Clear out your escape paths good, and get a mental picture of said paths. When cutting the back cut I will alternate looking at the top section of the tree, the kerf of the backcut, and the gunning sites on the saw, making sure I am in lining up my hinge for the fall direction. If possible (determined by the size of the tree) I will put a wedge in the backcut, not driving it in but tapping it in lightly. When the tree starts to tip I will look up while retreating to a safe distance. Be aware that branches can be thrown back at you by not only the tree you are falling, but surounding trees that may be hit by the falling tree. Also when the tree is on the ground take a good look above you before moving into look at the downed tree. Many times there are residual branches broke off and hanging above.
> 
> Stay safe



Good to know. Rep sent


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## Gologit (Jan 28, 2010)

You've been given some good advice but I'll add something to it. All the techniques and tips you've been given are workable. For the most part if you follow the advice given you so far you should be able to get started.

I told you in my earlier post that reading Dent's book would help you...and it will. BUT...the trees don't read the book. The book is just a starting place and a reference guide. The only way to learn to fall is to actually do the work. Don't ever assume that just because you do "A" the tree will do "B". You can fall 100 trees with no problem and the 101st will humble you for days afterward. Trust your advice, and as you gain experience and skill you'll begin to trust yourself. Just don't ever, ever, trust the trees.

Every faller makes mistakes. That includes me and everybody I've ever worked with. If there's a mistake than can be made in the woods you'll probably make it eventually. The good fallers know how to keep mistakes from turning into disasters. That comes with time.


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## Dayto (Jan 29, 2010)

And never assume a tree is say after its down in the lay , LOADED limbs have killed and hurt many fallers while limbing .


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## ms290 (Jan 29, 2010)

Dayto said:


> And never assume a tree is say after its down in the lay , LOADED limbs have killed and hurt many fallers while limbing .



thats no lie. Ive had sore shins more than once because of them loaded limbs


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## 056 kid (Jan 29, 2010)

Wait till one slings you a couple yards


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## discounthunter (Jan 30, 2010)

just curious,are you a lefty? 


not pickin on you but just looking at you make that cut made my back hurt.

not sure if it will help,but with the saw off practice getting the feel of holding the saw both right hand then left hand on the trigger.


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## slowp (Jan 30, 2010)

I can comment on bucking. If you plan to do a lot of it, and limbing, get a longer bar. You can stand farther back at those times when something is apt to pop up. Don't lean over the tree when doing your final cut. And look for pivot points. Sometimes when you buck through a tree, it releases it and it is apt to swing around if it is on a rock, stump, or some other kind of fulcrum. 

Take time to think about where to safely stand when bucking. It is worth it. 
Sometimes, you'll want to clear a spot to "fall back to" on a tricky tree. I think you have flat ground, but try to buck from the uphill side if on a hill 

The Douglas Dent book has a chapter on bucking logs too.


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## ms290 (Jan 31, 2010)

discounthunter said:


> just curious,are you a lefty?
> 
> 
> not pickin on you but just looking at you make that cut made my back hurt.
> ...



No im right hand dominant. to be more accurate though i am ambidextrous. When running a saw i can do it both ways no problem. Feels weird with the left hand throttling though.


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## joesawer (Jan 31, 2010)

ms290 said:


> No im right hand dominant. to be more accurate though i am ambidextrous. When running a saw i can do it both ways no problem. Feels weird with the left hand throttling though.





Kick back should always be a concern and and avoided. 
But be aware that when running the saw left handed it tends to put your body more in the path of kick back and use extra care.


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## ms290 (Feb 1, 2010)

note taken...


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## hammerlogging (Feb 1, 2010)

056 kid said:


> Wait till one slings you a couple yards


off today, falling partner broke down.
16 and unemployed? high school?

yeah. when you come to, you can shut off your saw. In about 15 minutes you can laught it off, right? educational opportunity. almost as good as the "national geographic moments". Life of a faller. intrigue, mystery, excitement.

I'm diffferent about escapes than these guys say. That butt pops up off the ground or slides back off the stump, you don't want to be close. As a guideline, 45 degrees back from intended fall, adapted for special circumstances like dead limbs, leaners, other circumstances. I myself am out of there once the tree is committed, atleast 2-3 big strides out of there then turn and look up, preferably from behind a tree, preferably your next tree, preferably already slamming the face in it....... you should have already identifed the most likely hazards to come at you.

I'll stick around more or take the easy out method as others mention but not in a highly selctive falling situation where I find more bad things can happen. Your safety is up to YOU.

get clear.


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## joesawer (Feb 1, 2010)

Every tree is different and escapes are different. You can not feasibly back peddle away from every tree while keeping your eyes fixed on the top. Look up look around, be aware of your surroundings "see" your escape route and remember Death From Above! but you have to keep your feet under you .
I have run into another tree and been stuck as the tree fell.


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## gwiley (Feb 2, 2010)

Jeff Jepson's book "To Fall a Tree" is a great read, short and concise but covers pretty much everything related to tree falling.

The first step to falling a tree is to clear both the lay and an escape path - the saw doesn't touch the tree until then. You clear the lay do avoid spring poles - little trees that get snagged by the big one on the way down that then spring when the trunk rolls off them or when they are cut during limbing. Last year my Dad got hit in the head by a spring pole (2" cedar) - knocked out his front tooth and cracked some others, broke part of his jaw.

Studies have shown that most deaths during tree falling occur within 10 feet of the stump. If the canopy of a tree gets hung on its way down it can get pushed back and the butt can jump in any direction - you clear an escape path so that you don't need to think or dodge on your way out - you can focus your eyes on the tree while your body moves.

I prefer an open face notch because it keeps the hinge in tact longer thus giving move control of the tree for more of the time during the fall. Once your hinge breaks you must rely on gravity alone to direct the tree. A shallow notch will cause the hinge to break once the notch closes - small diameter trees can even be held on the stump if the hinge doesnt break when the notch closes - which creates a dangerous situation.


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## bitzer (Feb 2, 2010)

I didn't mean back peddling to be a catch all for what to do off of a stump, but it seems I may have represented it that way. I cut a lot of dead trees and I've got to keep an eye out for tops and branches coming back at me. I generally give myself several good strides back with my eyes on the tree as it starts to tip, but I will peddle after that if I can or have too. Sometimes all I have to do is back peddle. If I can duck in behind another tree or if I know I'm going to have to bust ass to get out of there I will. It just goes on a tree by tree basis. There is no catch all. Its about being aware of your surroundings and looking the tree over and nearby trees and the possible scenarios that could happen. Common sense. Bad things happen very quickly and for no seemingly no reason sometimes. 

I don't know if anyone said anything about spring poles, but you can take a little tension out of them by making several cuts in succession halfway or less through, before you cut them off. A longer bar also helps. Damn spring poles will toss your bar right into your leg if you are not careful.


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## ms290 (Feb 2, 2010)

bitzercreek1 said:


> I didn't mean back peddling to be a catch all for what to do off of a stump, but it seems I may have represented it that way. I cut a lot of dead trees and I've got to keep an eye out for tops and branches coming back at me. I generally give myself several good strides back with my eyes on the tree as it starts to tip, but I will peddle after that if I can or have too. Sometimes all I have to do is back peddle. If I can duck in behind another tree or if I know I'm going to have to bust ass to get out of there I will. It just goes on a tree by tree basis. There is no catch all. Its about being aware of your surroundings and looking the tree over and nearby trees and the possible scenarios that could happen. Common sense. Bad things happen very quickly and for no seemingly no reason sometimes.
> 
> I don't know if anyone said anything about spring poles, but you can take a little tension out of them by making several cuts in succession halfway or less through, before you cut them off. A longer bar also helps. Damn spring poles will toss your bar right into your leg if you are not careful.



whats a spring pole?


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## Metals406 (Feb 2, 2010)

ms290 said:


> whats a spring pole?



http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/sections/directives/log_springpoles_cpl2122.html


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## Metals406 (Feb 2, 2010)

http://www.forestapps.com/tips/springpole/springpole.htm


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## ms290 (Feb 3, 2010)

thanks guys. That helps a good bit.:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:


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