# CS Milling 101, Hints tips and tricks



## BobL

Guys, seems like there are a continual trickle of newbies posting their milling setups and it's great to see the addiction continues! Most of these folks seem to be milling small logs on their knees on the ground when there is no need for it. Yes I do occasionally mill (big ones) on the ground but I'm wondering whether a sticky on milling positions would help these folks, that way we wouldn't sound like broken records?


----------



## CaseyForrest

Allright guys. For the sake of keeping this an information thread, lets keep the banter to a min and keep the sharing of info and your set-ups flowing.


----------



## BobL

My tips for Alaskan style milling
1) Clean the log of as much grit and bark as you can and clear sufficient working space around the log.

2) if at all possible, get the log up off the ground onto gluts or sawhorses so you are milling in as standing a position as possible. You should not have to bend over significantly or mill on your knees.

3) place the log on a slope so that you are milling downhill and gravity aids the cutting process

4) start with a freshly sharpened chain with rakers set correctly and don't let the chain go blunt. Stop and sharpen or change chains often.

5) add extra handles to the mill or wrap handle on the saw so your arms are not spread apart. This allows you to comfortably lean on the mill with straighten arms. The more handles you have, The more variations in arm and standing position you can use which helps relieve fatigue. Add anti vibe grips to handles.

6) If you are milling over about 24" in width consider adding an auxiliary oiler to the outboard end of the bar to protect the bar and chain.

7) add rollers or wheels to the inboard side of the mill that makes contact with the log so the mill does not constantly jam up against the side of the log

8) use log rails that are longer than the log so that the mill can perch on the end of the log while the saw is being started

9) on really hard wood, if the log is partially dry, remove the first 6" or so of the starting end of the log, so you are not cutting into dead dry wood where you lose 90% of the chain sharpness.

10) when finishing a cut, before stopping the engine let it idle for 30 seconds or so, so it can cool down a bit . 

11) orient the milling so the saw is downwind of the operator to reduce exposure to exhaust and sawdust.

12) stop to admire and chimp the wood grain often - remember you will never see it looking so vivid and natural again, EVER!


Things to watch out for
a) the CS bar and the CS milling rails not being parallel to each other across the mill. This will cause the mill to rise or more likely dive making it harder and harder to cut. This can be cause by poor construction or dropping or damaging a mill.

b) loose nuts/bolts/bits on the saw and mill. If they fall they are dangerous if they hit the chain and you may never see them again amongst the piles of sawdust generated by milling. Check all fasteners and use Loctite where appropriate. 

c) loose mill/bar bolts. If you forget, the chain could be toast in fractions of a second.

d) PPE. High quality hearing protection is even more essential than regular sawing because of the prolonged exposure. Consider using 30dB+ muffs.

e) pushing too hard. If you have to push hard, something is not right usually its just 4) especially the rakers not set properly but occasionally its a)

That will do for now!

Cheers


----------



## Ollbuster

How about some recomendations on chains and chain set up. I currently use plain stihl chisel and it cuts fast and relativly smooth. What are the pros and cons of different set-ups?


----------



## hazard

Bob

You hit on every point I have posted in the past. I found out all of this the hard way 10yrs ago.

1. Wear a dust mask 
2. Put wedges in the cut so the bar does not get pinched

Generally I use granberg milling chain. Works well. 

I have used normal stihl chain in the past. More vibration in the mill. Cuts rougher

Chris


----------



## dustytools

Another thing to keep in mind is saw maintenance. Milling is way harder on a saw than normal crosscutting is. Check and clean filters often, Max out the oiler on the saw and use an auxillary oiler if possible, Let the saw idle for a little while before killing it to allow it to cool, and always keep the chain sharp.


----------



## BobL

All good points gentlemen. 

Doh - how could I forget the wedges!!!

Dust mask is good too. I have a full filtered air mask - helmet - muffs combo that is very useful for dry logs but mostly where I mill where there is almost always some breeze which helps enormously.


----------



## CaseyForrest

How bout some pics of your set-ups.....I know when I was hot and heavy into milling, I was always thinking about.....

Getting my logs up about waist high.

Getting the first cut square and smooth and keeping it that way the length of the log.

Then theres always the different types of chain and what angles work best in particular types of wood.


----------



## hazard

I did this as an example of how I set up the rig. I haven't actually milled a log in 3 yrs. No point when I have 3000bf of oak, cherry and walnut laying around. My wife hates it when I bring more home.

Once the rig is setup I set the mill at 5 1/2" and mill away. This is quick and easy. The 2x4's I use are 8' so I cut the log at 7' so I have 6" of overhang. As a woodworker to me an 8' log is meaningless. I almost prefer a 6' log. A 6'x20"x1.25" wet board weighs is starting to get heavy for me.

The only way to raise a log to any decent height is with a bobcat or tractor or a group of really strong men. Otherwise you are SOL. Most of the logs I mill have been in the woods so a tractor isn't excessable.

Chris


----------



## BobL

hazard said:


> The only way to raise a log to any decent height is with a bobcat or tractor or a group of really strong men. Otherwise you are SOL. Most of the logs I mill have been in the woods so a tractor isn't excessable.



It depends how crafty you are.

I got this log off the ground.



With this.




Full thread here.

The hi-lift jack lifts 7500 lbs and I picked a used one for US$30 and modifying it took a couple of hours. Admittedly It's not something I like carrying more than about 100 yards but otherwise it's well worth the effort.


----------



## hazard

I have a jack like that. We used it at the apple farm back in the day. I will use that next time. You just got the wheels rolling in my head on this. I can raise a log now

Thanks
Chris


----------



## BobL

*A range of setups*

Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.

Unistrut log rails



Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.



Boomerang shaped log





Another tricky to start log



Small mill with Mac 10-10



Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!



16ft cedar



Enough?


----------



## porky616

fantastic pics bob


----------



## Rockfarmer

Good stuff!! So far all Ive milled is pine logs and its very easy. For this I use regular chisel chain sharpened to 10 degrees and rakers down to .040 all by eye. Most of my logs have been out in the woods where its hard to get heavy equip. When I fell my trees I put down some logs crosswise, I have these leftover from the previous tops. As the tree lays naturaly off the ground with limbs supporting it its easy to stuff some more logs under before limb-ing and bucking log lengths. Then I'm up off the ground a couple feet from the get go. As you get close to the bottom cuts of the cant, these pieces, and the leftover pieces from making the cant, this wood becomes liftable. Then I made triangular pieces to prop these off the ground. They dont roll and they are light wieght and do the job. With this pine obviously I start on the uphill side of the log and she just chugs down thru with almost no effort, same with the mini mill ( I could even run the mini mill one handed ) One thing about the mini is to make sure you get it squared up good because it is adjustable (slotted holes). Obviously all safety gear is a must.


----------



## CaseyForrest

If you guys do a search under my name of threads started in the milling section...theres quite a few with good pictures.


----------



## BobL

CaseyForrest said:


> If you guys do a search under my name of threads started in the milling section...theres quite a few with good pictures.



There certainly are. Also Aggiewoodbutcher is a name to search with as well for some awesome posts.

CaseyF, I checked out your posts and I now remember your post of milling on a trailer using the green unistrut rails back in 2007? inspired me to get some unistrut. 

We forget there's a heap of very good info going back a number of years in these forums but their structures? leave a bit to be desired as a long term repository of info. We need better data mining tools than simple searches and a way to remove what I call chaff (low or no info banter) from threads. Still what we have access to is pretty impressive and having inducted a few newbies to this site they are amazed at what is on offer.


----------



## CaseyForrest

BobL said:


> There certainly are. Also Aggiewoodbutcher is a name to search with as well for some awesome posts.
> 
> CaseyF, I checked out your posts and I now remember your post of milling on a trailer using the green unistrut rails back in 2007? inspired me to get some unistrut.
> 
> We forget there's a heap of very good info going back a number of years in these forums but their structures? leave a bit to be desired as a long term repository of info. We need better data mining tools than simple searches and a way to remove what I call chaff (low or no info banter) from threads. Still what we have access to is pretty impressive and having inducted a few newbies to this site they are amazed at what is on offer.



Excellent point.

Woodshop is also a valuable resource of information.

Feel free to search through past threads and post the links here. I can edit them into the first post as they come up.

Maybe consider this sticky a work in progress. As you guys mine past information we can organize it accordingly.


----------



## MR4WD

Today was my first time milling. Used the same ladder set up that bob showed a while ago and was able to slab out a 12'x4" ponderosa pine for novelty, practice and sitting benches by my firepit.

I used 1/2" hardware on the ladder, if by chance you forgot your ratchet you can use a scrench.

As an aside I used a 385 with a muffler mod, 36" bar and stihl full skip chain on an 8 pin rim at first. Until I promtly found and cut through a nail. Then I used stihl full comp with a 7 pin. I'd have to say I preferred the full skip, since I was milling for speed not texture. I never had any doubts going into this that the 385 would be underpowered and I was never let down. The only real question is 395/3120? I'm staying husky so I don't have to get another full inventory of bars.

In the 4, 4" slabs I cut (the biggest at 28" across) the chain only really started dulling. I'll probably resharpen the skip at 30 degrees again but then see what the future holds for another powerhead before I determine the angle that I sharpen the comp. Seems to me 10 degrees would be slower and harder on this weenie 385.

Thanks for the great thread!
Chad.


----------



## BobL

CaseyForrest said:


> Excellent point.
> Woodshop is also a valuable resource of information.



Yep sorry I didn't mention WS, lots of other guys too, everyone helps each other sometimes quite subconsciously.


----------



## BlueRider

I have a check list that is a word document that I print out so I can check to make sure I have everything I need loaded in the truck. I wish I had enough duplicate tools to not have to take some out of my milling tool box but such is not the case. I list everthing I might need including food & water. that way I can check it off and know I didn't leave it sitting on the kitchen counter. I find this list particularly helpful when I havn't been out to mill for several months.

here is my check list:

*Milling Check List*

075
051
038
homelite
mill
gas
mix oil
bar oil
guide board
cant hooks
broom
ax
shovel
fire extinguisher
cordless drill 
respirator
gloves
tool tote
rags

*Tool Tote*
Scrench(2)
Regular screw driver
#2 phillips screw driver
carb adjusting screw driver
pliers
crescent wrench 
vice grips 
tape measure 
wood chisel
driver tips #2 & #3
round files
flat file
3/16” drill
counter sink
allen wrench
ear plugs
deck screws

food
water
spare clothes
camera


----------



## Rockfarmer

I like the deck screws as well, 3 1/2", torx head

They work great and can be used over and over


----------



## BobL

BlueRider said:


> I have a check list that is a word document that I print out so I can check to make sure I have everything I need loaded in the truck. I wish I had enough duplicate tools to not have to take some out of my milling tool box but such is not the case.


I have a tool box full of the tools dedicated to CS ops and milling that I keep in a tool box in my home shed and always put those tools back in there so I can just pick it up any time and go milling.



> I list everthing I might need including food & water. that way I can check it off and know I didn't leave it sitting on the kitchen counter. I find this list particularly helpful when I havn't been out to mill for several months.


That's way too organized for me but I definitely tips me hat to you!



> *Milling Check List*
> 
> 075/076 with 42" bar and soon the 880!
> 051/441 with 24" bar and soon a 660 !
> 038/
> homelite/check with 20" bar
> mill/check
> fresh gas/check
> mix oil/check
> bar oil/check
> guide board/I use unistrut rails
> cant hooks/check
> broom/check
> ax/check
> shovel/check
> fire extinguisher/check
> cordless drill /check
> respirator/check
> gloves/check
> tool tote/check
> rags/check


PLUS
Plastic tub full of wedges
Crow bar
Pair of strong collapsible sawhorses
Kangaroo jack for lifting logs
2 x 6ft portable tressle table for servicing saw
Funnel
What I call my offset rack for starting awkward shaped logs
Oil can - filled with bar oil
Paint and paint brush
Box of spare chains - I use an old power tool box and wrap the chains in rags or place inside chinese food containers
Spare bars
Alternate set of mill rails for mill
Tarpaulin to throw over gear if it rains



> *Tool Tote*
> Scrench(2)/check
> Regular screw driver/check
> #2 phillips screw driver/check
> carb adjusting screw driver/check
> pliers/check
> crescent wrench/check
> vice grips /check
> tape measure /check
> wood chisel/ Nope but good idea!
> driver tips #2 & #3/check
> round files/check
> flat file/check
> 3/16” drill/check
> counter sink/
> allen wrench/I take a whole set
> ear plugs/Peltor Muffs
> deck screws/check


PLUS
Small regular screwdriver
Small 2" vice
Pair of 12" clamps
Digital Angle finder
regular level
Torx driver for new Stihls
Small socket set
Spare nuts and bolts for log rails, mill and saw.
Magnetic anti-sag device for long bars.
Chaps
Full Face mask
Gloves



> food/check
> water/check
> spare clothes/check
> camera/check


PLUS
Hat
Sun Screen
Toilet Paper
Cell phone
First aid kit
Pack of moist towlettes (fer cleanin greasy hands before eating)
Plastic chair for sittin and filing!

and a partridge in a pear tree!!!!!!!


----------



## dallasm1

NOT to start any controversy, but *IF* you decide to use vegetable oil for chain oil:

1) If you leave your saw for any length of time (more than 2 weeks). Remove your chain and soak in motor oil until next time. Drain your saw oil resevoir completely. Vegetable oil will reduce down to a sticky goo after a relatively short period of time. In fact I NEVER leave the veg oil in my saw. Always empty the tank after every session.

2) Do not store your oil in plastic containers where VARMINTS can get to it. I left my jug of Canola oil out one day and when I returned the rats had knawed through the container. Lost 5 liters of Mazola on that one. Animals LOVE the oil (all animals! My dogs are always licking up the dirt and sawdust around where I am milling). 

3) I have no opinion on canola vs. olive oil, virgin or otherwise.

4) I also have no expert opinion on benefits. I have been using veg oil and the saw seems to behave the same in every way as when I was using official bar oil. I think there have been several threads here and on the chainsaw forum that discuss this in hideous detail.


----------



## BlueRider

No controversy intended here but if you use the comercial vegetable bar oils like Stihl's Bio plus there is no need to drain you saw. I have been using Bio plus for a over a year now and have not had any pronblems with it in the tank, even when the saw sat unused for several months. The outside of the saw is a different story, it needs to be cleaned off within a couple of weeks or it will get crusty. I feel it is worth the additional cost over bulk vegetable cooking oil.


----------



## BobL

*Bar nose clamp options*

I get a few questions from folk about my bar nose clamps to maximize bar cutting length so I thought I would summarize some options here.




1: Shows the conventional Alaskan bar nose clamp on a roller or sprocket nose bar. Around 3-4 inches of bar length is lost because the clamp needs to steer clear of the roller

2: Shows where the clamp can be placed on a hard nose bar. If you are careful and the clamp pads are not too large you can place the corners of the pads right up to where the bottom of the bar groove starts on the nose. Making the clamp pad as small as 1 sq inch can get you closer still.

3: Shows a clamping mechanism that clamps onto a small (3/8" or less) bolt thru the middle of the roller. This is a safe place to drill on most bars.

4: Is the same as 3: but with a small recess drilled into the middle of the clamp pad. This provides a more positive grip of the bolt. This won't work If you have a GB mill where the powerhead connects to the bar bolts since you wont be able to adjust the chain without adjusting the position of the outboard part of the mill. So instead of a hole you can also use a slot like this.



A thread about this is here.

5: shows a bolt thru everything. This is one of THE safest methods.

6: Shows the location of the bolt/nut should sit inside the rivets that hold the roller/sprocket onto the nose.

7. Putting a small bolt thru each clamp pad so that it contacts only the middle of the sprocket. No bar drilling needed!

8. A variation of 5: with a bolt thru everything. This is also one of THE safest methods and on a GB style mill allows the chain to be changed without removing saw from mill.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

Here's a link to a thread showing my modified GB mill.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=64299&highlight=GB

As you can see I'm using a through bolt on the roller nose so I can change chains without dismounting the saw.


----------



## BIG JAKE

*Oil reservoirs*

Anybody have pics of oil reservoirs you made? I'd rather trade money for time and just buy one but need to keep cost down pending some head cutting at my company withing next 4-5 weeks. Never know. Anyway I saw aggies ball valve from a bathroom sink but didn't see the whole unit. I was thinking of an aluminum oxygen bottle cut down what capacity is optimal?


----------



## BobL

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Here's a link to a thread showing my modified GB mill.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=64299&highlight=GB
> 
> As you can see I'm using a through bolt on the roller nose so I can change chains without dismounting the saw.



Ah Ha - I forgot that option - picture and post above modified to that effect.

CHeers


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

My reservoir is just made from a 3" PVC pipe, cap and clean-out.


----------



## BobL

BIG JAKE said:


> Anybody have pics of oil reservoirs you made? I'd rather trade money for time and just buy one but need to keep cost down pending some head cutting at my company withing next 4-5 weeks. Never know. Anyway I saw aggies ball valve from a bathroom sink but didn't see the whole unit. I was thinking of an aluminum oxygen bottle cut down what capacity is optimal?



I reckon somewhere around a quart works pretty well.
This one (Got the idea from Aggie, 3.5" pvc pipe) is just over a quart .



As is this one on the BIL mill



This one is just under a quart: Can you see a certain house style here?



This one is from another Aussie (Dai Sensei)


----------



## Brmorgan

I emptied, stripped, and inverted an old fire extinguisher, put a ball valve on the neck and a hose leading to a fitting on the bar, and cut a hole in the bottom (now top) of the fire extinguisher as a fill point. Cost: $0


----------



## Brmorgan

dallasm1 said:


> 3) I have no opinion on canola vs. olive oil, virgin or otherwise.



I do... One's Canadian and costs a fraction of the other.


----------



## BIG JAKE

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> My reservoir is just made from a 3" PVC pipe, cap and clean-out.



Nice-that would be easy too.



BobL said:


> I reckon somewhere around a quart works pretty well.





Brmorgan said:


> I emptied, stripped, and inverted an old fire extinguisher, put a ball valve on the neck and a hose leading to a fitting on the bar, and cut a hole in the bottom (now top) of the fire extinguisher as a fill point. Cost: $0




Nice examples-I'll have to see what's lying around. What point is optimal to drop the oil down onto? Was thinking seam on nose between rails and chain-almost 1/8" gap there on a new rollernose. Guess I could do a paper test and see how much oil flings off at certain points but you guys probably have this nailed already. Drip rate for 36-42" bars? I'll look at pics again. Be nice to segment a thread into categories so info isn't spread all over. Thks


----------



## BobL

BIG JAKE said:


> Nice-that would be easy too.
> Nice examples-I'll have to see what's lying around. What point is optimal to drop the oil down onto?


 This post is about bar noses and oiler delivery points. Look at post number 3



> Was thinking seam on nose between rails and chain-almost 1/8" gap there on a new rollernose. Guess I could do a paper test and see how much oil flings off at certain points but you guys probably have this nailed already. Drip rate for 36-42" bars? I'll look at pics again. Be nice to segment a thread into categories so info isn't spread all over. Thks



My 076 can deliver bar oil at the rate of 19 ml/min but no matter the quality of bar oil used (I use Stihl) quite a bit of this is flung off at the nose - I typically match that with the aux oiler - pretty well all of which gets to the cut. I also use canola in the Aux oiler as it doesn't need to be sticky because it doesn't need to go around a bar nose.

The 880 can deliver 38 ml/min but quite a bit of this is also flung of at the nose so I run the aux oiler the same (maybe a touch less) as I do for the 076. 

The 3120 can deliver 58 mL/min - it's a real waste of oil as far as milling is concered as most of this get flung off at the nose.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

Here some pics of the oiler. I have since drilled the bar and have the oil going directly into the roller nose but I can't find the pics.

The large section of hose just below the valve acts like an IV drip so I can see exactly how much oil is being delivered.


----------



## BIG JAKE

My 076 can deliver bar oil at the rate of 19 ml/min but no matter the quality of bar oil used (I use Stihl) quite a bit of this is flung off at the nose - I typically match that with the aux oiler - pretty well all of which gets to the cut. I also use canola in the Aux oiler as it doesn't need to be sticky because it doesn't need to go around a bar nose.

The 880 can deliver 38 ml/min but quite a bit of this is also flung of at the nose so I run the aux oiler the same (maybe a touch less) as I do for the 076. 

The 3120 can deliver 58 mL/min - it's a real waste of oil as far as milling is concered as most of this get flung off at the nose.[/QUOTE]




aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Here some pics of the oiler. I have since drilled the bar and have the oil going directly into the roller nose but I can't find the pics.
> 
> The large section of hose just below the valve acts like an IV drip so I can see exactly how much oil is being delivered.



You're both dropping the aux oil in the same place-good enough for me I've seen the stuff you guys mill. I like the IV visual drip too easier to quantify what yer putting on. Thanx fellers I'll post some pics on what I come up with.


----------



## BobL

Aggie, if the bar nose is bolted to the outboard end of the mill and the inboard end is bolted by the bar bolts, how do you adjust your chain tension?


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

The mill is bolted to the bar independently from the saw. I can dismount the powerhead without changing anything on the mill.

What you see here is a stiffener plate that takes the place of the stock cover and prevents the bar from flexing or bending.

I may have started with a GB mill but there's now much of it left now.


----------



## BobL

Ah ha . . so its more or less identical to a "bolts onto the bar at both ends" with no bar underclamps, type alaskan?

I also thought your sawdust guard was connected to your saw but I see it is not, does much sawdust sneak past the edge of the guard?

My new 880 setup has also got a little away from the original BIL Mill connection (plus more sexy ally work courtesy of BIL!) I ended up using a longer support plate because the 880 is longer at the front of the saw than the 076 so I had to move it back from the mill a bit to get it to fit.





Thanks
Bob


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

BobL said:


> Ah ha . . so its more or less identical to a "bolts onto the bar at both ends" with no bar underclamps, type alaskan?



Some what. It bolts through the bar.



BobL said:


> I also thought your sawdust guard was connected to your saw but I see it is not, does much sawdust sneak past the edge of the guard?



It is attached to the saw. What you see touching the mill is not attached. Not much really gets past. Not enough to notice a difference anyway.




BobL said:


> My new 880 setup has also got a little away from the original BIL Mill connection (plus more sexy ally work courtesy of BIL!) I ended up using a longer support plate because the 880 is longer at the front of the saw than the 076 so I had to move it back from the mill a bit to get it to fit.
> 
> Thanks
> Bob



Nice


----------



## BobL

RE: Sawdust Gaurd.


aggiewoodbutchr said:


> It is attached to the saw. What you see touching the mill is not attached. Not much really gets past. Not enough to notice a difference anyway.



I see, it appears to be attached through the dog holes on the saw.


----------



## BIG JAKE

BobL said:


> Ah ha . . so its more or less identical to a "bolts onto the bar at both ends" with no bar underclamps, type alaskan?
> 
> I also thought your sawdust guard was connected to your saw but I see it is not, does much sawdust sneak past the edge of the guard?
> 
> My new 880 setup has also got a little away from the original BIL Mill connection (plus more sexy ally work courtesy of BIL!) I ended up using a longer support plate because the 880 is longer at the front of the saw than the 076 so I had to move it back from the mill a bit to get it to fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Bob



Yep-sexy! Down right purdy! I like the pipe tucked in nice. Looks like chromed too. What is i.d. of the pipe? What pipe i.d. do you fellers recommend for an 066 muff mod or two pipes? Pics? I'd like to redirect the fumes away on that saw also


----------



## BobL

BIG JAKE said:


> Yep-sexy! Down right purdy! I like the pipe tucked in nice. Looks like chromed too. What is i.d. of the pipe?



The pipe is 19 mm (3/4") but the internal opening is variable. The original muffler was 14 mm. I made a set of 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 mm diameter sleeves/inserts. I don't want to opening it up so that the leaness increases above the adjustment range of the carby. So far I have it at 15 mm and it running really sweetly. I will keep opening it up till I run out out of adjustment and then go back one step. 

Full mod thread here.




> What pipe i.d. do you fellers recommend for an 066 muff mod or two pipes? Pics? I'd like to redirect the fumes away on that saw also



I reckon a 3/4" would be OK. Also I recommend to read the full DIY muffler mod sticky in the CS forum.


----------



## Dai Sensei

Great combined thread there Bob


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

I was able to take a few shots of my mill this weekend.

Here's a better pic of the guard.






Here's where the oiler is now. I like this much better than dripping on the bar. The oil is delivered directly to where it's needed and is sort of self regulating.


----------



## BobL

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> I was able to take a few shots of my mill this weekend.
> 
> Here's a better pic of the guard.


Thanks Aggie - nice and clear now



> Here's where the oiler is now. I like this much better than dripping on the bar. The oil is delivered directly to where it's needed and is sort of self regulating.



That looks like a roller nose?

Putting an oil bolt into that location is relatively easy if it is a roller - it's much harder if it's a sprocket nose. Because I switch between 42" sprocket and 60" roller it's a PITA. Also i'm a bit paranoid about losing that last 1/2" of cutting length. Here is where my clamp and oil point (x) would sit.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

BobL said:


> That looks like a roller nose?



It is.






You can see where I used to have the oil tube. It kept plenty of oil in the chain but wasted a lot if you weren't paying attention.


----------



## BobL

*CS Milling Risk Assessment*

In rough order, my assessment of risks in my alaskan CS milling operations for green wood are;

1) Driving to and from the milling site. Funny how we forget about this

2) The Sun: In Oz, Skin cancer and Sunstroke are are serious risk. 

3) The next most dangerous thing is moving the logs, rolling logs around and setting them up on gluts using a loader. Risk minimization includes, leaving plenty of room around logs, orient the logs on slopes so they won't roll, using decent wedges to chock logs, always use two gluts and double wedge to reduce chance of rolling. Stay away from side of logs while setting up.

4) Next most dangerous is lifting logs to create a milling slope. This depends on how it is done. Using a kangaroo jack represents high risk but even a loader has risks, and placing blocks and gluts under logs is dangerous as logs can roll off gluts and crush and operator. Same risk minimization as 3)

5) Moving slabs, even though I usually use a mechanical loader for the big slabs they can still fall onto an operator and crush limbs and feet, back injury is another factor. Risk minimization includes, taking things easy, sliding rather than trying to lift, using knees rather than back, using a sack trolley, levers and cant hooks.

6) Preping the logs. This is cutting off the bumps and lumps, bits of limbs etc with a CS. I do this will either a dedicated 066 or my 441. These saws MUST have all the safety fittings attached to them. Full PPE including Chaps MUST be worn during this time to minimize risk. If an operator only has one saw and they have to take the saw out of the mill to do this then obviously the saw has to have all the safety features still attached.

7) Starting and ending the cuts. This is when the full bar is exposed and loose chains can fall off. This is also a whole topic in itself. Moving a running saw on and off the log represents high risk. This is why I use log rails for just about every cut. This means I can start the saw/mill when it is on the rails and I do not have then move a running saw. Same with taking the mill off the rails, let the CS idle for a minute or two and then stop the saw and move the mill. Just lifting my 73 lb saw/mill on and off the log without it even running also has a small risk.

8) Milling ergonomics. Tired operators take shortcuts and make mistakes. A comfortable milling position that requires minimum pushing and fighting the mill is important in reducing operator fatigue. This is a whole topic for discussion in itself.

9) Exhaust fumes: Standing for hours in a fog of exhaust is not going to do an operator much good in the long term. Minimization here requires things like minimizing lube use, tuning saw, exhaust modification and getting the wind behind the operators back.

10) Noise - obvious

11) Vibration: this depends on the saw. Old saws are still very capable of giving an operator white finger. Newer saws a better but better again are is remote throttles with soft vibration absorbing mountain bike handles or using a winch (although I don't like using winches for other reasons)

12) Using fuel: obvious

13) Lifting the log rails, my log rails are 4 x 3 m lengths of Unistrut joined by lengths of 3/8" all thread rod. There are very heavy but I think they are worth it.

Then come things like cutting your hands while filing, bug bites, splinters, chain breaking, kick back, shark attack and UFO deportation.

For dry and dusty wood, dust probably comes in around number 7) or 8)

Remember this is my assessment your assessment may be different.


----------



## splitpost

you could also add the position of observers in relation to the loader whilst in use and the mill/saw whilst in use


----------



## BobL

splitpost said:


> you could also add the position of observers in relation to the loader whilst in use and the mill/saw whilst in use



A very good point - even though I have posted a number pictures of "Helpers" in the vicinity of the mill I generally avoid having anyone else within 6 ft the mill or saw.


----------



## BobL

gemnii suggested I post this here.

Originally Posted by WV Wildman 


> Bob...what bar and chain should I be looking into? These were done with the factory bar and chain....I am getting better at cutting smooth but know there are better cuts to be made.
> There are two aspects to cutting smoothly, one is how you hold and move the saw, and the other is the chain. The size of the chain and bar is largely irrelevant.



Holding and moving the mill/saw
Smoother cuts can be obtained by finding a sweet spot in the RPM range that allows the mill to move forward at a steady rate, and using a stance that permits a constant pressure on the mill. Also avoid seesawing the log in the cut. Cycling between max rpm and almost bogging the saw will create a rougher cut than holding the saw at a steady rpm

This is why I like to apply the primary and constant pressure on the saw wrap handle with my hip/thigh/knee. When I need to take a step forward I apply pressure with one arm, ease off with my leg and step forward and reapply pressure with my leg. This means I mainly using my arms to work the remote throttle and to guide the mill. Sometimes I just lock the throttle and this leaves both my arms free momentarily free to add wedges and scratch myself. If the logs is on a slope this of course also helps the mill keep cutting of it's own accord. I found this method of cutting really reduces the strain on my shoulders (I suffer from bursitis, an inflammation of the lubrication sack between the arm and shoulder) at the end of the day. This of course is not the only way to do this - as long as the pressure is always smooth it can vary considerably.

When I first started, I used to often seesaw the mill down the log. This creates a much rougher finish because the mill twists in the cut. I still do this sometimes towards the end of a long hard wide slab - the reason for this is by then the chain is getting blunt and the seesawing cuts less wood at any one time so it takes a little load off the powerhead (I can see this effect on the temp gauge). Some people think this method is faster but it really isn't much faster.

If you do have to stop cutting completely during the cut, then when restarting, resist the urge to crank the saw WOT and drive it back into the cut as this will create a rough strip on the two surfaces. Just ease the powerhead up to WOT as the chain enters the wood.

Bar and chain
Some people seem to get sufficiently smooth cuts using regular crosscutting chain while others swear by lower top plate cutter angles. IMHO a good milling cutting style (as describe above) can generate smooth cuts with regular chain but it only takes a momentary loss of attention to leave a slab wide chain gouge on your slab using regular chain. In most cases this means a few extra passes thru a thicknesser but if you are milling wide natural edge slabs then this means a lot more sanding. I use a 5-10º top plate (milling chain) and combined with a good milling style works for me and leaves a little room for a lack of attention from time to time. 

Regular chain will make a marginally wider cut so a small amount of power needs to be diverted to do this, OTOH, the top plate is performing more of a slicing rather then a chopping action so it is swings and roundabouts on this factor. One thing I do not like using regular chain for is on longer bars as the extra sideways chop/vibe can easily pull the chain off the bar.

The other chain factor that affects finish is chisel versus semi-chisel. Because chisel uses a point it will scratchier finish whereas semi-chisel has a rounded cutter corner which leaves dimples rather than scratches. Once again, in practice this means a few extra passes thru a thicknesser but if you are milling for wide natural edge slabs using the existing thickness then this means a lot more sanding to get out that one last pointed scratch. There are other reasons for and against using chisel and semi-chisel, the main one for me being that chisel will go dull quicker, especially in harder dirtier wood. 

All you can really do is try different chains for yourself and see what works for you.


----------



## diesel&coffee

bob

Where can I find a few good pictures of the mounting unit that you bolt your saw to?? and the unit on the other end?? where these custom mounts made after first starting with a box CSM?? are they a modified copy of a box csm mount?? I really would rather make a solid custom mounting setup instead of buying a box csm... all the rail stuff should be somewhat easy! I hope lol? 

would be nice to see some pictures of the custom parts off the saw and on the saw in such a way one could study them when making something... Geee - I ask a lot don't I... 

Must say you open the door for one wanting a nice unit from the start.. I may make mine with a 44" gb double end bar.. as per your comments on setups - I would rather have the extra 1 - 2 ft of bar instead of making say a small 30" unit and find a twisted log the next week that would work in a small csm..

insert: the upgrade thread has a good picture of the bar end mount.. I can't sem to find a good one of the chainsaw mount side..
but I guess u would have to flip it e gig over to the how the saw is mounted/etc..


----------



## BobL

diesel&coffee said:


> bob
> Where can I find a few good pictures of the mounting unit that you bolt your saw to?? and the unit on the other end??


The Almost complete WIP for the BIL mill starts on post #18 of this thread.



> where these custom mounts made after first starting with a box CSM??


No, the whole mill was designed starting from the mounts.



> are they a modified copy of a box csm mount??


No - the BIL mill design is a conglomerate of a whole bunch of ideas collected from this and other sites, plus some original ideas like the nose bar clamp and the cam operated vertical adjustment locks.



> I really would rather make a solid custom mounting setup instead of buying a box csm... all the rail stuff should be somewhat easy! I hope lol?


Usually my ideas and designs don't quite live up to my imagination but the BIL mill is one of the few tools/jigs that has worked as well, perhaps better, than I envisaged.



> would be nice to see some pictures of the custom parts off the saw and on the saw in such a way one could study them when making something... Geee - I ask a lot don't I...


see above



> Must say you open the door for one wanting a nice unit from the start.. I may make mine with a 44" gb double end bar.. as per your comments on setups - I would rather have the extra 1 - 2 ft of bar instead of making say a small 30" unit and find a twisted log the next week that would work in a small csm..



There is some serious merit in making and then using a basic alaskan mill first - then you can see and experience all the problems for your self. I would really recommend this, otherwise you will be making it somewhat blind. I still use the first mill I made on small logs. I've continually modified it eg removed the inboard bar clamp altogether and switched to a "bolt on bar", and added some better wheels, and given it's original design limitations it continues to work very well especially with the 441. I would recommend direct bolt on bar over bar clamps even if you only have one CS.



The BIL mill is by no means perfect and I am mentally already working on my fourth mill. I'm going away for 5 weeks so I can't really start anything till I get back.


----------



## SPM in King

*Pulley and crank*

I saw this on another site and rigged it up for my mill last winter. It works beautifully. The crank allows for very even pressure and saves my arms. I am a very junior welder, but it was very simple to construct.


----------



## jnl502

SPM in King said:


> I saw this on another site and rigged it up for my mill last winter. It works beautifully. The crank allows for very even pressure and saves my arms. I am a very junior welder, but it was very simple to construct.



That's pretty slick. Bet it helps save your arms from all the pushig. I have thought of simething simular but useing a battery drill to do the work.
jnl


----------



## SPM in King

Yes, it's a saving grace. I had misgivings about the crank pulling the rig out of alignment and the amount of effort required to crank it. It is so easy crank and is remarkably stable. The key to stability is keeping the crank low. If you build one, I suggest you use the hand crank. It gives a good "feel" for the pressure needed to maintain RPM. 

I have since added and extension on the pulley end of things to allow me pull right through the end of the log. It moves the pulley about 6 inches beyond the end of the log.


----------



## mtngun

That looks similar to BillSteuwe's crank -- except Bill doesn't mill in the snow.


----------



## BobL

My concern with cranks is it looks like you have to constantly hold the mill away from the side of the log, presumably to prevent the saw from bogging down against the side of the log. That was also my experience with cranks and that just felt like wasted energy so this is when I looked for other solutions like wheels and a remote throttle. Wheels are not perfect but they will minimize the need to constantly hold the mill away from the side of the log.



SPM in King said:


> . . . The crank allows for very even pressure and saves my arms. . . . . . .



. . . . if a CSM operator's arms hurt there's something not right with their set up. ;-)
If the chain cutter geometry is set right and the cutters are sharp, with wheels and a slight slope on the log, a CSM should self feed so there should be no need to push much or at all.



Even if there is minimal pushing, most arm soreness from CSM is due to the operators arms being spread too far apart while holding onto the mill/saw (this is why your arms are not as sore). A well located remote locking throttle eliminates this problem by getting the operators arms more directly in front them and allows them to stand up close and personal to the mill to be able to be able to apply forward pressure on the wrap handle with their leg/knee/thigh. This then in turn means the operator's arms can be free to do things like unbog the saw if needed and add wedges etc and it means it is possible not to stop milling once started which makes for smoother cuts.


----------



## SPM in King

Not sure why I am holding the mill away from the log in those shots, but there is generally no need to do so. If you want to tire your arms, try doing it for a whole cut!! Your points on the slope and wheels are good ones. I had the slope experience by chance and agree that it reduces the amount of effort considerably. I will look into the wheels and see how to fit some on. Is there a thread with any details, that you can recommend?

So far, the crank has been flawless. Easy to set up, easy to use. It gives a measure of control to the pressure applied to the mill during the cut. I'm using it with an 880 and a 60" bar.


----------



## BobL

Some tips for building/improving a standard alaskan chainsaw mill.



1) Avoid making the mill that will only hold one length of bar. Make sure you can adjust the outboard end (A) of the mill to accommodate different sized bars. The day after you finish making it you'll find, want or need a different size bar.

2) Locate any full length handle (B) at least 6" higher that the top of the mill rails. This makes it easier to file the chain on the mill

3) The handle at C is too low and too far to the right spreading the operators arms too wide - move it to D1

4) Consider adding another handle to D. If you use a cable tie to keep the saw at WOT you can put your left hand at D and your right hand at D2 and stand upright, or close to upright, when using to the mill. If you need to apply more pressure to the mill you can then do so using your leg/knee on the wrap handle.

5) Consider ditching the bottom parts of the clamps (E) and drilling and drilling and tapping the top part of the clamp and drilling a hole in your bar, and directly bolting the bar to the mill. This allow you to change the chain without removing the saw from the mill

6) Add a slippery plastic (UHMWPE) to the underside of the mill rails

7) Add wheels to the inboard side of the bar clamp, If the wheels are not too big you can even use the existing holes in the top half of the bar clamp.

8) Add an auxilliary oiler, even for short bar lengths it protects the bar and chain from excess wear.

9) use spring washers and/or loctite on bolts that are not going to be undone on a regular basis.

10) Add another rail cross piece like F at F1 for small logs, and space the two cross pieces appropriately for wider logs.

11) Add a winch - if I used one I would add in such a way that I would not have to bend over to use it - maybe add it opposite D.


Some other things worth considering are
- adding a remote Aux oiler flow control
- threaded rod for depth of cut adjustment
- cam locking rather than spanner/bolt locking nuts.
- add legs to the mill so that you can put the mill on the ground without putting the saw in the dirt - this requires a different mill design
- there are very strong mill designs that bolt the mill to the bar bolts of the saw - this requires a rethink of the inboard end of the mill

To the saw consider
- redirecting the exhaust away from the operator/log
- adding a remote throttle
- adding a tachometer and temperature measurement sensor

Other things
- beer can holder


----------



## BobL

*Railomatic's good stuff!*

I don't know what happened to Railomatic who was one of the most innovative CS mill designers to post on AS. He posted a lot of photos of his mills back in 2007/8 mainly linked to a photobucket account which has also disappeared but some of his posts did include photos posted direct to AS.

I thought I would repost some of his posts here including his photos here because they really deserve to be seen, especially by newbies and folks looking for interesting CS mill designs and you may also see where I got several ideas for my mills from. You will also see the outstanding quality of finish that he was able to fabricate. 



Railomatic said:


> Here is how I have done mine an all aluiminum model and a steel model in the orange, all have rollersfitted which makes starting and finishing easier and the going three times easier, all have 325 nose conversions for a much faster cut through the log. After the top handles have been turned to the required depth an elastic bungee is located between the two handles to stop things from moving.





































More in the next post


----------



## BobL

*Railomatic's good stuff II*

More of Rail's good stuff.












Railomatic said:


> And more of the same of the same, I have never had anything vibrate loose in the ten or so years I have been making my own CSM's, they are some of the best CSM's I have ever made, cost is nothing to me, quality and ease of use is paramount, I can make myself a CSM cheaper than it is to buy an Alaskan.


----------



## BobL

*Railomatic's good stuff III*

And more good ideas.





Check out this bar/saw strengthening mount!









I hope you find this useful.
Cheers


----------



## davidbrac

Great thread

I would add moving logs doesn't always need mechanic aids, you can move heavy loads by putting rollers under then. I always carry 4 3 inch diam wooden rollers (old fence posts)

Other point l would raise is beware of people out walking their dogs when ground milling, you can barrier again humans but their pets are harder to block out. Thats the main reason l moved from a logosol big mill to a M7


----------



## BobL

davidbrac said:


> Great thread
> 
> I would add moving logs doesn't always need mechanic aids, you can move heavy loads by putting rollers under then. I always carry 4 3 inch diam wooden rollers (old fence posts)



Cheers david.

I assume you mean powered mechanical aids, otherwise I see rollers as just another mechanical aid. I agree rollers are handy when working on a firm flat surfaces and the logs are regularly shaped, unfortunately not all that common in the Aussie bush. I do use rollers (1" wooden broom handles) to slide big slabs onto piles of other slabs or into my van.


----------



## Mekanizm

In Rails pictures, what are the plastic knob/wheel looking things on the four corners of several of his builds for?

It looks like they would keep the ladder cradled but they are on the wrong side.


----------



## BobL

Mekanizm said:


> In Rails pictures, what are the plastic knob/wheel looking things on the four corners of several of his builds for?
> 
> It looks like they would keep the ladder cradled but they are on the wrong side.



I'm not really sure.
I know he likes machining plastic knobs - they might be handles - like in this picture, he seems to be hanging onto a corner.


----------



## diesel&coffee

Bob G day there

On your 076 - do/can u cut 50+ hardwood with it?? are do u go with a 880??


----------



## bluesportster02

great thread. subscribing


----------



## dcchiro

*How about edging?*

This thread has been very helpful to get me started, but I was hoping you guys could post some edging pics, and setups! Please, and Thank you. What are the things to consider about edging. I am most interested in big timbers not boards that is why I ask. I would like to make 12"x12" and/or bigger beams. Any Ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!


----------



## mtngun

dcchiro said:


> This thread has been very helpful to get me started, but I was hoping you guys could post some edging pics, and setups! Please, and Thank you. What are the things to consider about edging. I am most interested in big timbers not boards that is why I ask. I would like to make 12"x12" and/or bigger beams. Any Ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!


Not sure what you mean by edging timbers, but I like to make them by doing the 1st pass with an Alaskan and the next 3 passes with a mini-mill. 

Try to make your beams either heart centered or else free of heart.


----------



## smokinj

Thanks bob l awesome stuff.


----------



## dcchiro

*Edging?*



mtngun said:


> Not sure what you mean by edging timbers, but I like to make them by doing the 1st pass with an Alaskan and the next 3 passes with a mini-mill.
> 
> Try to make your beams either heart centered or else free of heart.


 
Sorry, I did mean cutting the sides of the log after making your first cut with and Alaskan/or the like.

I have seen other threads were people were not happy with the mini-mill, and made there own version.

Have you been happy with the mini-mill. Does it do as good a job as the first cut with the Alaskan?


----------



## mtngun

dcchiro said:


> Have you been happy with the mini-mill. Does it do as good a job as the first cut with the Alaskan?


No, the mini-mill is not as accurate as an Alaskan, but that is not the point. It's hard to cut 90 degree corners with an Alaskan, but that's easy for a mini-mill.

The weakness of a mini-mill is that it has a narrow base. That makes it unstable and tippy. You can still get good results, but you have to concentrate on holding the mill firmly against the guide board, and not letting it tip.

I usually get 1/4" accuracy.

The beams are not as good as those made on a carriage type mill, but they are certainly good enough for timber framing, especially bearing in mind that in the old days they hewed beams with an axe.


----------



## dcchiro

mtngun said:


> No, the mini-mill is not as accurate as an Alaskan, but that is not the point. It's hard to cut 90 degree corners with an Alaskan, but that's easy for a mini-mill.
> 
> The weakness of a mini-mill is that it has a narrow base. That makes it unstable and tippy. You can still get good results, but you have to concentrate on holding the mill firmly against the guide board, and not letting it tip.
> 
> I usually get 1/4" accuracy.
> 
> The beams are not as good as those made on a carriage type mill, but they are certainly good enough for timber framing, especially bearing in mind that in the old days they hewed beams with an axe.


 
Thanks mtngun. That is helpful. One last question. You mentioned doing the first cut with the Alaskan, and the following three with the mini-mill. Do you find it easier/better to do it that way,or have you tried using the Alaskan to do the top and bottom cuts(with wedges) and follow up with the last two side cuts with the mini-mill?

I have yet to mill anything, but hope to start soon. I am just trying to learn from everyone before I make too many mistakes. I am sure some of this stuff is just personal preference, but those preferences are based on experience which I don't have. Your opinion/experience is appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## mtngun

dcchiro said:


> have you tried using the Alaskan to do the top and bottom cuts(with wedges) and follow up with the last two side cuts with the mini-mill?


The problem with that is you have to stop to adjust the height of the Alaskan.

But, if you have a bunch of the same size timbers to mill all at once, you can save setup time by doing all the slabbing cuts at once, then if you like, re-adjust the Alaskan for the bottom cut, and do all the bottom cuts at once.

Another advantage of the mini-mill, besides its affinity for 90 degree corners, is that there is not much to set up on those last 3 cuts.


----------



## dcchiro

mtngun said:


> The problem with that is you have to stop to adjust the height of the Alaskan.
> 
> But, if you have a bunch of the same size timbers to mill all at once, you can save setup time by doing all the slabbing cuts at once, then if you like, re-adjust the Alaskan for the bottom cut, and do all the bottom cuts at once.
> 
> Another advantage of the mini-mill, besides its affinity for 90 degree corners, is that there is not much to set up on those last 3 cuts.


 
Thanks again mtngun. That makes a lot of sense. I do have a bunch of same size timbers I plan on milling at once, but if I want to make them all heart cuts, then I guess that would be a lot more set up time with the Alaskan.


----------



## burningwood

*Getting It Off The Ground*



BobL said:


> Guys, seems like there are a continual trickle of newbies posting their milling setups and it's great to see the addiction continues! Most of these folks seem to be milling small logs on their knees on the ground when there is no need for it. Yes I do occasionally mill (big ones) on the ground but I'm wondering whether a sticky on milling positions would help these folks, that way we wouldn't sound like broken records?



I just starting milling and wOOd like some ideas (pics) on getting logs off the ground so your not milling on your knees. Some of the equipment I have are a 3000 pound warn winch, Tuf-Tug 2500 pound hoist puller with some chains and other winching equipment, snatch blocks,rigging straps and dshackles.

bw


----------



## dcchiro

burningwood said:


> I just starting milling and wOOd like some ideas (pics) on getting logs off the ground so your not milling on your knees. Some of the equipment I have are a 3000 pound warn winch, Tuf-Tug 2500 pound hoist puller with some chains and other winching equipment, snatch blocks,rigging straps and dshackles.
> 
> bw


 
I would try this: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/55860.htm#post797166 

It is cheap fast and good, usually you have to pick 2 of the 3. Good luck!


----------



## burningwood

*Log Lift*



dcchiro said:


> I would try this: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/55860.htm#post797166
> 
> It is cheap fast and good, usually you have to pick 2 of the 3. Good luck!



Thanks DC, looks like I should have something (log lift) in a couple of weeks.

bw


----------



## BobL

*Interesting CS Milling PDF*

http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/pdfs/international_programme/ChainsawMillingManual.pdf


----------



## kiwiatgundy

*question for you Bob*



BobL said:


> http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/pdfs/international_programme/ChainsawMillingManual.pdf



Some interesting stuff in there bob.
Question for you, I am haveing a bugger of a time setting my rails for the first cut, especially on some of the logs 6 meters in length. At that span, i am getting a bow in the middle of the rails so I made up some plates with set screws ets that I put on the top of the log, both ends and the middle. Works well but tells blimmin ages to set up and get parrell etc. Just wondered what you did? Also, would you have a pic of your aux oiler. Wondered what sort of hose you run to the bar and how you keep the damn thing in the right poszy.
Cheers mate
Brian


----------



## mtngun

kiwiatgundy said:


> Some interesting stuff in there bob.
> Question for you, I am haveing a bugger of a time setting my rails for the first cut, especially on some of the logs 6 meters in length. At that span, i am getting a bow in the middle of the rails so I made up some plates with set screws ets that I put on the top of the log, both ends and the middle. Works well but tells blimmin ages to set up and get parrell etc. Just wondered what you did? Also, would you have a pic of your aux oiler. Wondered what sort of hose you run to the bar and how you keep the damn thing in the right poszy.
> Cheers mate
> Brian


I support the middle of the span with scrap pieces of wood wedged between the log and the rails. There is more than one way to do it, but it definitely needs support of some type.

Position of the dripper is not critical, as long as it falls somewhere on the bar nose. The oil will eventually find its way to the edge of the bar -- where else can it go ? Baling wire or a zip tie work as well as anything to hold the oil hose.


----------



## timmcat

Man there is alot of good info here. I started with an alaskan staight up, but hated the pain it was to get the rails set the first time. Then I built a suspended carriage, two pieces of box tubing 16' long welded 1' apart and supported at the corners with 1" threaded rod, 8 tpi so it was easier to cut quartrs in measurement. That was a pain because of the squaring mess. I finally ended up with a custom carriage and rail set up like a circular mill. Much less stress on the operator (me) and squaring big cants is as easy as rotating the log with a peavey. Only downside is the inability to go larger than 28" but I still have the original granberg for those occasions. Will get some pics eventually.


----------



## splitpost

jonathan481 said:


> learning:hmm3grin2orange:



what exactly are you contributing?...................................SPAM


----------



## splitpost

bloody spammers


----------



## BobL

*How not to do it.*

I need to get back to milling but this is the closest I could get today. The occasion was the Perth Wood show where all manner of woody stuff is on show and being demoed.

Every year for as long as I can remember Westford Chainsaw mills have had a display demo at the show and the last time I went to the show 5 years ago I remember watching the Westford CS millers sweating, gruntin and grovelling on hard tarmac in piles of sawdust. Westford is a small local company who make solid Granberg style alaskan and other CS mills.
I was hoping that this time 5 years on they would have learned something, but apparently not










Worse still have a look at how far away his inboard mill clamp is from his powerhead.





This means
a) His powerhead is hanging out in the breeze far more than it needs be - probably so he can adjust his 3120 chain without removing it from the mill but it means arms are spread wider than necessary
and
b) The 6" gap is a prime place where he could slip his knee into - lucky he is wearing chaps.


----------



## mortenh

*Aluminum ladder and slide-on brackets makes first cut much easier*

I have been milling (in Denmark and Sweden) using the Alaskan Mill MKIII for a few years. Previously, I have been using a Mini Mill (with a 4" rail) for making the first cut, as I thought it was far too much work mounting and aligning slabbing rails to the log before making the first cut using the MKIII. Mostly, because the slabbing rails not only had to be aligned (level) at both ends, but also aligned at an equal distance from the centre of the log.

Recently, I had an idea using a standard aluminum ladder (with "H" profile rails) and mounting it using a specially designed bracket to the log ends. I quickly made up the brackets and it has made life a lot easier (see pictures below).

The advantages of using this setup are:

Very quick to mount (four short screws)
No problem with twisting of the rail (ladder is inherently very stiff)
Easy to align with center of the log
No risk of cutting into screws (this is a problem when mounting using screws through rungs)
Light weight (easier to move to the milling site)
Low cost (brackets can be made for a few dollars)

The only disadvantage that I have found, is that you are limited by the length of the ladder. But 90%+ of my milling is 9 ft or less anyway so that is not too much of a problem.

View attachment 247473


View attachment 247474


The brackets need to be a few inches wide, to allow it to be lifted at one end to align with the center of the log. If you need the initial cut to only remove a narrow slice, simply raise both brackets by a couple of inches.

I tend to cut smaller logs down the middle, before slabbing each half anyway, to get the largest possible surface for the mill to rest on.

I thought I would share this with my fellow millers, and I welcome any feedback that you may have.


Morten Hattesen
omkap.dk Arborist Services


----------



## BobL

mortenh said:


> Recently, I had an idea using a standard aluminum ladder (with "H" profile rails) and mounting it using a specially designed bracket to the log ends. I quickly made up the brackets and it has made life a lot easier (see pictures below).



Thanks for posting the pics of your setup.

Lots of people here are already using ladders with similar end brackets.
eg Have a look here.

One disadvantage of ladders is their fixed width so when milling wide logs with long bars the mill is not as stable as it could be.

Length is not a problem as some ladders can easily be joined together (see pics in above link). 

You also say that ladders will not twist but this depends on the quality of the ladder and the length. One of my friends has a 12 ft ladder that twists as much as a guide board. The important thing about any setup is to be able to measure and remove the twist. I use a digital angle finder to measure twist.


----------



## PES+

BobL said:


> It depends how crafty you are.
> 
> I got this log off the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full thread here.
> 
> The jack lifts 7500 lbs and cost me US$30 and modifying it took a couple of hours. Admittedly It's not something I like carrying more than about 100 yards but otherwise it's well worth the effort.



LOL

You have every safety nut in NA freaking out with those pics.

I no longer post pics of my set ups because safety freaks still insist you need to run a chainbrake on a chainsaw mill.:jester:


----------



## BobL

PES+ said:


> LOL
> You have every safety nut in NA freaking out with those pics.
> I no longer post pics of my set ups because safety freaks still insist you need to run a chainbrake on a chainsaw mill.:jester:



That's interesting, that first photo has been downloaded 606 time on this forum and you are the first person to say that about it.
Most people that know me see me as a relatively safety conscious operator in terms of things like; PPE use, moving slabs an logs around, keep people away when milling etc.

I guess here in Oz we still have some common sense left - but given recent developments in OHS, maybe not for long


----------



## mortenh

BobL said:


> You also say that ladders will not twist but this depends on the quality of the ladder and the length. One of my friends has a 12 ft ladder that twists as much as a guide board. The important thing about any setup is to be able to measure and remove the twist. I use a digital angle finder to measure twist.



I don't see the ladder twisting at all. When mounting it to the log ends, no forces are acting on the ladder (except for the weight of the ladder itself). Once the end brackets are mounted (two screws each), the ladder is fixed with no twisting. If the ladder is long/weak, it may deflect under the weight of the mill, but that can be avoided by pushing a wedge under one of the rungs/steps halfway down the log.

Anyway, I have found the bracket + ladder to be much quicker to mount and adjust than anything else I have tried before, and they can be made up for no money in less than an hour, and thought I'd pass on the tip.





















View attachment 247938


View attachment 247939


View attachment 247940


View attachment 247941


----------



## mad murdock

Can't wait to get my Bailey's order! Getting set up to mill with picco ripping chain. From all studies and people I have questioned who have used it, I will be seeing about a 30% increase in feed speed, plus more lumber recovery/less sawdust! Will post after action report.


----------



## tmacie

Is there a thread somewhere on the pico ripping chain? What bar lengths is it good until?


Travis


----------



## FlyMats

mad murdock said:


> Can't wait to get my Bailey's order! Getting set up to mill with picco ripping chain. From all studies and people I have questioned who have used it, I will be seeing about a 30% increase in feed speed, plus more lumber recovery/less sawdust! Will post after action report.



Hi there, could You provide us with some links about that chain? Thanks


----------



## mortenh

FlyMats said:


> Hi there, could You provide us with some links about that chain? Thanks



3/8" Low Profile ripping chain branded WoodlandPRO (a rebranded Carlton chain): Bailey's - WoodlandPro 30LR Ripping Chainsaw Chain


----------



## FlyMats

mortenh said:


> 3/8" Low Profile ripping chain branded WoodlandPRO (a rebranded Carlton chain): Bailey's - WoodlandPro 30LR Ripping Chainsaw Chain



Thanks! So this chain is 30% faster than the other ripping chains, like Carlton?


----------



## mortenh

FlyMats said:


> Thanks! So this chain is 30% *faster than the other ripping chains, like Carlton*?



This *IS* a Carlton chain (rebranded "WoodlandPRO")

I doubt it will be anywhere near 30% faster than an equivalent 3/8" non-low-profile chain. Don't know who came up with the "30% faster" claim. But it will make a slightly narrower kerf, producing less sawdust, and may be a little faster.

I am frequently using a Stihl 3/8" LP Picco chain on a 25" hard-nose bar, and that setup works quite well. For larger bars, I use full 3/8" chain.


----------



## FlyMats

I see, thanks for Your reply! But Baileys recommend this chain in the link, low profile, from 12-16" bars, but You believe that up to 25" is good and have tested that for some time?


----------



## FlyMats

mortenh said:


> This *IS* a Carlton chain (rebranded "WoodlandPRO")
> 
> I doubt it will be anywhere near 30% faster than an equivalent 3/8" non-low-profile chain. Don't know who came up with the "30% faster" claim. But it will make a slightly narrower kerf, producing less sawdust, and may be a little faster.
> 
> I am frequently using a Stihl 3/8" LP Picco chain on a 25" hard-nose bar, and that setup works quite well. For larger bars, I use full 3/8" chain.



So You think that the 30LR is good at 25'' even Baileys says 12-16? 

Thanks


----------



## FlyMats

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QS+3614+000+0084&catID=

Since I got a 660 the only safe was to go for this LP chain, looking forward to see the difference!


----------



## Trever

*Another log lifter*

Here is something I built a couple of weeks ago for log lifting; nothing fancy but works. Have a blessed day.

Trever


----------



## mt.stalker

Brilliant redneck ingenuity right there !!!


----------



## Trever

mt.stalker said:


> Brilliant redneck ingenuity right there !!!



Thank you for the compliment stalker. You Yankees can hang in there from time to time as well! :msp_wink:

Trever


----------



## mt.stalker

Trever said:


> Thank you for the compliment stalker. You Yankees can hang in there from time to time as well! :msp_wink:
> 
> Trever



:msp_biggrin: People always bustin on southern rednecks . Well , I can attest that no matter what the geographical location , a redneck is a redneck is a redneck . :hmm3grin2orange:

Myself and some friends included , rank fairly high on the redneck scale


----------



## BobL

I see a number of questions regarding chain angles from time to time so though I would put together this post explaining what each of the angles are, their purpose and effects of varying the angles.
I won't go into much detail about how to generate these angles. If there is enough interest I'll do that in another post.

Firstly a quote from the Carlton chain Manual.
It's not specifically directed to milling but it still applies - note the emphasis on *rakers* rather that *cutter edge angles* as being the main source of chain problems



This following figure is modified from the Oregon chain manual and I will refer to each of these below.



RAKER ANGLE (RA)
The Depth Gauge setting I replace by what I call the raker angle. It's a term use to describe the angle between the wood, cutter edge and top of the raker. RA is a "roll your own" angle since optimal RAs depends on a number of factors like, saw power/torque, drive sprocket pin count, chain, hardness/dryness of wood, length of bar or how many cutters are in the kerf, etc.
The RA works together with the TPFA (See next paragraph) to generate a highly desirable self feeding saw.
I recommend starting with what most new chains have which is a RA of ~6º and then vary up or down from there.
I use about 6.5º for an 880, with an 8 pin drive sprocket, full comp 3/8 chain, in green Aussie hardwood.
The higher the RA the greater initial bite the cutter makes.
Too high a RA and the saw will struggle, increase chain vibe, bar, chain saw wear, and even stall low a powered saw
Too low a RA will result in slow cutting and lots of fine dust frustrating operators causing them to push harder and increase bar and chain and powerhead wear.
Using a 0.025" raker depth during the whole life of the cutter continually decreases the RA and is the main reason why I see operators throw away perfectly good chains because they do not appear to be cutting even when the cutters are razor sharp.
Using a consistent RA means you do not have to worry about keep the cutters the same length since each cutter cuts according to its RA and TPCA rather than its length

TOP PLATE FILING ANGLE (TPFA)
This is traditionally 20 - 35º for cross cutting and les,s eg ~10º, for milling.
A higher TPFA will pull the chain slightly more sideways in the cut hence cutting a slightly wider kerf and vice versa.
The reason for using a higher TPFA for cross cutting is because it involves cutting across wood fibres leaving fibre ends hanging and occupying some space in the kerf. When the chain is blunt the fibres are often torn more than cut and the furry fibre ends can clog a kerf restricting adequate clearing of sawdust making more work for the chain to clear the dust.
Will Malloff uses 0º on his chains. This is fine as long as they are not less than 0º. If they are less than zero the cutter may tend to slew off the cut and not cut as efficiently. This is why I recommend some angle rather than zero. I'm not fussed about this angle being too accurate and my cutters are normally 10º +/- 5º
There is a lot of discussion about TPFA being a significant influence in the finish obtainable by a CSM. I reckon that the stiffness of a CSM and the way an operator guides the saw down the log are much more significant that TPFA. If the mill is a sloppy-joe and the CSM jockey seesaws the mill down the log with uneven pressure, starting and stopping to put in wedges and ramming the CSM into the cut this will produce a far worse finish than a higher TPFA. Most of my chains start out as regular cross cut and they are filed to a TPFA of ~10º over successive sharpening. If I am careful with my mill I see no difference between the finish generated by low or high TPFA.

TOP PLATE CUTTING ANGLE (TPCA).
TPCA determines the hook which combined with RA determines how effectively the saw/chain self feeds.
TPCA variations have the same effect as RA
A cutter with a high TPCA will have a similar effect to a low RA. High TPCA generates a cutter with a squarer cutting edge or less hook which goes blunt slower but provides poor self feeding.
If the TPCA is >90º, then a what is called a back sloped cutter is generated, which will cut poorly or not at all which often results in operators pushing saw harder leading to high bar and chain wear and powerhead overloading and overheating.
If the TPCA is too shallow then the edge of the cutter will also be too fragile and easily break off/wear so the chain will become blunt quickly.
TPCA is a result of the size of the file and it's height above the top of the cutter (or radius of the edge of the grinding and angle of the grinder used).
Like RA, TPCA is a "roll your own" angle since it depends on a number of factors like, saw power/torque, drive sprocket pin count, hardness/dryness of wood, length of bar or how many cutters are in the kerf, etc.
Will Malloff uses a quite shallow angle of 45º on 404" chain. Oregon recommends 50º for its ripping chain.
It's easy to set AN angle on a grinder but as the resulting angle also depends on the radius of curvature of the grinding wheel the actual angle obtained will not be what the grinder says it is. It is quite difficult to measure this angle on a cutter but on 3/8" chain I use whatever a 13/64" file in a 3/16" file guide generates because this seems to produce enough hook for the chain to self feed a little without knocking the edge about too quickly causing it to become blunt too quickly.
For newbies I recommend sarting with 50º and varying it from there.

SIDE PLATE FILING AGLES
This angle is not one that can be actively controlled as it is the result of the combination of TPFA and TPCA. Once these two are fixed this determines the side plate filing angle.

FILE GUIDE ANGLE
Finally comes the file guide angle. This is easy and I just go with what the chain manufacturer suggests.
Usually a slight angle of say 10º helps form a pointier tip on full chisel chain while for semi chisel chain no angle is needed.

I hope this is useful to someone.

Cheers


----------



## BobL

For some reason the critical image that goes with the previous post has been deleted.
Now its back again


----------



## FlyMats

FlyMats said:


> http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QS+3614+000+0084&catID=
> 
> Since I got a 660 the only safe was to go for this LP chain, looking forward to see the difference!



Stihl chains are machine streched while the WoodlandPro are not, therefore the WoodlandPro chains will not handle more than a medium saw, now talking about the Low Profile Ripping Chains.


----------



## woodlearner

mortenh said:


> This *IS* a Carlton chain (rebranded "WoodlandPRO")
> 
> I doubt it will be anywhere near 30% faster than an equivalent 3/8" non-low-profile chain. Don't know who came up with the "30% faster" claim. But it will make a slightly narrower kerf, producing less sawdust, and may be a little faster.
> 
> I am frequently using a Stihl 3/8" LP Picco chain on a 25" hard-nose bar, and that setup works quite well. For larger bars, I use full 3/8" chain.



Hello,

First I would like to say that I visited Copenhagen and very much enjoyed the nice people and the Viking Museums there and in Norway and Sweden.

How is the milling going with the 3/8" Picco on the 25" hard nose bar ? Is that the Stihl bar 3003 9630 or the 4030 ? I believe both have the replaceable Sprocket nose or RS guide bar type .

I am confused and just starting to try to buy a saw to use on a logosol Big mill which also uses the Timberjig. I was told to look at picco chain for a narrow kerf. I am looking at the Stihl sawchain and selection chart http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/.../STIHL-Saw-Chain-Selection-Identification.pdf and I do not see picco for a MS 660 or any bar over 18”. 
Are people making their own loops for the longer bars with the picco chain or ordering them somewhere ?
Also I have heard that Chiesel cutters give a great smooth surface but do not see that listed on the sawchain chart. Is that what they refer to as K type or Classic ?

What kind of surface does Picco give ?

I have heard that Husqvarna gives a two year warranty and that is why I am leaning towards a 395XP but I am having trouble figuring out the best chain, best bar, drive sprockets combination. I want to not waste money and buy right the first time. I want a 36 inch bar for slabbing and quarter sawing and then use a smaller bar without having to change drive sprockets to run maybe a 28 “ and a 16 inch bar.

Any advice you guys can give is appreciated ! 
Thanks,
Woodlearner


----------



## Caghrlos

now talking about the Low Profile Ripping Chains.


----------



## mtngun

mortenh said:


> This *IS* a Carlton chain (rebranded "WoodlandPRO")
> 
> I doubt it will be anywhere near 30% faster than an equivalent 3/8" non-low-profile chain. Don't know who came up with the "30% faster" claim. But it will make a slightly narrower kerf, producing less sawdust, and may be a little faster.
> 
> I am frequently using a Stihl 3/8" LP Picco chain on a 25" hard-nose bar, and that setup works quite well. For larger bars, I use full 3/8" chain.


I have posted many speed tests comparing the cut times of lo-pro vs. standard 3/8. A 15% - 25% improvement is common, all other things equal.

I have run Woodland Pro lo-pro on 36" bars without any unusual stretching. Special sprockets are required, however, and you do have to be "gentle" with the chain when beginning the cut, or if the bar binds in the cut.


----------



## mtngun

Maybe we've already talked about this on this long thread, but since BobL mentioned chain angles, it's only fair to include the Malloff Grind. My test show a 30% speed improvement in softwood, compared to a standard milling chain. It does leave a rougher finish if that concerns you.











The grind requires using a modified 1/8" wheel rather than the standard 3/16" wheel, otherwise the wheel cannot fit into the cutter without nicking the side plates.

The Malloff grind can be touched up with a file in the field, but the filed angles will not be the same as the ground angles and it will not cut as fast. Grinding is the way to go.

http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/167063.htm


----------



## woodlearner

mtngun said:


> I have posted many speed tests comparing the cut times of lo-pro vs. standard 3/8. A 15% - 25% improvement is common, all other things equal.
> 
> I have run Woodland Pro lo-pro on 36" bars without any unusual stretching. Special sprockets are required, however,
> 
> Hello friends,
> 
> Any tips on places where to get the best deal on the lo pro ripping chain and special sprockets ? Is this lo pro the same as narrow kerf ? I heard there was a shortage on narrow kerf ? Truth or fiction ?
> 
> Thanks and now, Gentlemen, Start your ripping !
> 
> Woodlearner


----------



## BobL

mtngun said:


> Maybe we've already talked about this on this long thread, but since BobL mentioned chain angles, it's only fair to include the Malloff Grind. My test show a 30% speed improvement in softwood, compared to a standard milling chain. It does leave a rougher finish if that concerns you.



The reason the Malloff grind produces a rougher finish is probably related to the use of such a low Top Plate Cutting Angle (TPCA)which will grab and bite deeper and quicker than the higher TPCA angles usually used.

Will Malloff also recommends a fixed 0.045" raker depth for an 090 CS. I hate to question such a knowledgable fellow as WM but I wonder whether he knew/knows about progressive raker depth setting. I suspect his grind recommends a 40º Top plate cutting angle (TPCA, normally 55-60º on cross cutting) because he did not know about progressive raker depth setting. This is typical of, especially old timers, who use constant raker depths and find that as their chains wear that they make more dust then tweak the TPCA to get more grab. 

Whatever TPCA is used I agree that ripping needs a lower value than usual to get the chain to bite enough to generate some self feeding.


----------



## FlyMats

FlyMats said:


> Stihl chains are machine streched while the WoodlandPro are not, therefore the WoodlandPro chains will not handle more than a medium saw, now talking about the Low Profile Ripping Chains.



Now tested, it seems some faster, kerf is smoother, so for now I will only use this chain!


----------



## roundhead

*after the slab*

I have read through the entire post...I just milled a 3 inch slab of hickory that was about 20" in diameter. The tips were very helpful. anyone care to comment on what to do with the wood now? I understand it needs to dry before you can make anything. I would like to make a bench. the wood had been on the ground for about a year. So I understand that I should paint the ends to prevent cracking. any tips on drying, storing, and when is it ready to make into outdoor furniture? thank you


----------



## BobL

*Improving the finish*

There has been several threads and parts of threads about the finish produced by CSM and I thought I would summarise some ideas here.

There are several kinds of rough finish that can be produced by a CSM.
One is an semi-regular spaced series of lines/grooves at various angles across the cut like this


This is usually caused by the operator seesawing the CSM down the long and maintaining irregular pressure on the mill.
To avoid this problem maintain a constant angle of cut, avoid seesawing, and use a constant pressure on the mill.
One way to contribute to a constant pressure on the mill is to slope the log so the mill cuts down the slope.
If the operator needs to slow down to reposition their stance or stop to insert wedges the some care should be taken to restart the cut. Rather that "fang" the saw hard back into the cut the saw should be eased into the cut along the same angle of cut.

Another is Washboarding, as shown on the left side of this image


I think Washboarding is caused by a synchronizatiion between the chains speed, forward or applied pressure and the width of the cut.
I'm also more likely to see it on initial cuts in softer sapwood. These cuts are of course also narrower than subsequent cuts.
In the image above the two photos are of the same wood, same sharp chain, but cut on right was 30% wider.

Other info on washboarding.


mtngun said:


> I am more likely to experience mild washboarding with a 120cc powerhead than a smaller power head, more likely to experience washboarding with a narrow cut than a wide cut, and more likely to experience washboarding with on the 1st or 2nd pass of a freshly sharpened chain.



Prevention is difficult as it cannot be predicted and initially the operator will not know this is happening as of course the cut surface cannot be seen until the cut is completed.
If you are concerned about this happening it may help to angle the bar a bit more to the log to in effect produce a wider cut.
A surer way is to make these cut more slowly or use slightly less throttle (bear in mind that WOT should otherwise be used when CSMing)

A third is an irregularly spaced series of lines/groove perpendicular to the long dimension of the log.
This can be caused by a bar that is not set up right or has other problems ( eg coplanar with the mill rails) or being erratically pushed by the operator. This causes the bar to dip slightly in the cut. Ensuring the mill is set up right and being a bit more gentle with the mill should eliminate these problems.

The effect of various skip versus full comp, and full chisel verus semi chisel and various top plate angles are I believe secondary to the the above problems.
The effect of very low rakers and aggressive chain settings potentially causing poor finish is not necessarily the case and shown here http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/244137.htm


----------



## 4x4American

BobL said:


> *A range of setups*
> 
> Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.
> 
> Unistrut log rails
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boomerang shaped log
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another tricky to start log
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Small mill with Homelite 340.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16ft cedar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enough?




i wish the pictures were working! doggone link bucks...


----------



## Dave Boyt

> I would like to make a bench. the wood had been on the ground for about a year. So I understand that I should paint the ends to prevent cracking. any tips on drying, storing, and when is it ready to make into outdoor furniture? thank you



Depends on the furniture. First of all, you should be aware that hickory doesn't stand up well to the elements, so you will need a good exterior finish. Spar varnish is my standard, but maybe some members will have suggestions. Most benches, Adirondack chairs, and other outdoor furniture is designed to accommodate shrinking and swelling. The rule of thumb, however is one year air drying per inch of thickness, though this depends on your location. I have built benches out of wood right off the sawmill. I use through-mortises held together with wedges. It works, because if a joint loosens up due to drying, I can just tap in the wedge to tighten it back up. Powder Post Beetles, by the way, LOVE hickory, and you sure don't want those critters chewing on your house, so you might want to do a search for that topic.


----------



## SDB777

What happened to all the photo's towards the begin of this topic?

I suspect an evil conspiracy of a company wanting to copy Bob's designs.......




Scott (a lot of great info disappeared) B


----------



## abbott295

The pictures disappeared when the Arboristsite was hacked, late last year, wasn't it? Yes. a lot of great information disappeared.


----------



## TractorEnvy

Just started milling and have found a wealth of info here. I do have a question and cant seem to find the answer. When milling do you adjust the carb to highest RPMs or max torque or somewhere in between or no carb adjustment from normal use??


----------



## PES+

SDB777 said:


> What happened to all the photo's towards the begin of this topic?
> 
> I suspect an evil conspiracy of a company wanting to copy Bob's designs.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott (a lot of great info disappeared) B


No the site got attacked and held for ransom so the pic files were all stolen


----------



## BobL

I'm pretty sure I have reinserted all of my pics back into this thread. If anyone finds a post of mine with a missing pic please let me know.

Yeah I know "please put the pics back into the BIL Mill thread" - it will happen, one day.


----------



## Rob D

Thought I'd add to this thread and reiterate - keep increasing your knowledge of chain sharpening - it is everything.


Also now there are lots more people using winching kits. I'd stopped chainsaw milling in bulk a coupe of years ago - this winching kit takes a huge 80% strain off the operator and once used you would never go back again to pushing a mill. It's not a problem now to be milling most of the day.


Pull start cord stretches and evens the pull. Easy to control feed speed.


One of my customers demonstrating as below.


----------



## BobL

Rob D said:


> Thought I'd add to this thread and reiterate - keep increasing your knowledge of chain sharpening - it is everything.
> Also now there are lots more people using winching kits. I'd stopped chainsaw milling in bulk a coupe of years ago - this winching kit takes a huge 80% strain off the operator and once used you would never go back again to pushing a mill. It's not a problem now to be milling most of the day.



If the chains is truly sharp even at shallow log angles there should be no need for even a winch.


----------



## MrWho3006

BobL said:


> If the chains is truly sharp even at shallow log angles there should be no need for even a winch.
> View attachment 348218


Now THAT'S my kind if milling! That's impressive. Work smarter, not harder. Man I have a lot to learn. Lol


----------



## pete_86

How about engine tuning? I have mine set slightly rich. Will a slight drop of rpm slow mill speed much? I plane my lumber after drying, so have been thinking of a semi skip chain maybe semi chisel. Hoping semi chisel won't dull as quick as full chisel? If someone is looking for speed would you still file to 10 degrees?


----------



## BobL

pete_86 said:


> How about engine tuning? I have mine set slightly rich. Will a slight drop of rpm slow mill speed much?


CSMs don't cut at max RPM anyway so knocking a few hundred RPM off the top makes little difference to cutting speed.The tacho on my mill showst the typical RPMs for the 880 while cutting are around 8k for bigger/harder wood and 9-10 k for smaller softer wood. 



> I plane my lumber after drying, so have been thinking of a semi skip chain maybe semi chisel. Hoping semi chisel won't dull as quick as full chisel? If someone is looking for speed would you still file to 10 degrees?


Top platte filing angle (TPFA) makes little difference to cutting speed. The higher the TPFA the easier it is for the chain to cut end grain but this is negated by the cutters taking slightly more of a sideways dive into the wood and making a slightly bigger kerf.


----------



## pete_86

Thank you for your reply, it's greatly appreciated!


----------



## SAWsquatch

Great thread with great pictures thanks


----------



## Blaisey

I wondered where all the extra views on my video were coming from Rob! Glad you enjoyed it.

Blaisey


----------



## thenne1713

pete_86 said:


> How about engine tuning? I have mine set slightly rich. Will a slight drop of rpm slow mill speed much? I plane my lumber after drying, so have been thinking of a semi skip chain maybe semi chisel. Hoping semi chisel won't dull as quick as full chisel? If someone is looking for speed would you still file to 10 degrees?


15, 10, 5 or zero, I do not recall which, but know the Woodwright shows the different cants on a hand-plane/ molding plane, some square, some angled, and explains why/ which works better with different types of wood. I believe the wood type determines whether 0 or 15-degree is better. Now (0-15) versus (25-30) is a different story and I believe the (0-15) will be smoother, which is easier on chain & saw (I.e. less-washboard= less future planing).


----------



## BobL

thenne1713 said:


> 15, 10, 5 or zero, I do not recall which, but know the Woodwright shows the different cants on a hand-plane/ molding plane, some square, some angled, and explains why/ which works better with different types of wood. I believe the wood type determines whether 0 or 15-degree is better. Now (0-15) versus (25-30) is a different story and I believe the (0-15) will be smoother, which is easier on chain & saw (I.e. less-washboard= less future planing).



I don't believe washboarding is related to the top plate filing angle. More info and pics in this post.
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...nts-tips-and-tricks.93458/page-6#post-4507792

Washboarding is more of a synchronisation issue between the chains speed and sharpness, forward or applied pressure, and the width of the cut.
Finish is mostly operator dependent with some effect from how the mill set up.. 
With care I can generate just as smooth a cut with 30º TPFA as I can with 10º TPFA
Mills that are not parallel or loosely put together will also tend to generate a poorer finish


----------



## Lumber Jack Jason

BobL said:


> *A range of setups*
> 
> Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.
> 
> Unistrut log rails
> View attachment 325837
> 
> 
> Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.
> View attachment 325838
> 
> 
> Boomerang shaped log
> View attachment 325839
> 
> View attachment 325840
> 
> 
> Another tricky to start log
> View attachment 325841
> 
> 
> Small mill with Mac 10-10
> View attachment 325842
> 
> 
> Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!
> View attachment 325843
> 
> 
> 16ft cedar
> View attachment 325844
> 
> 
> Enough?


This is a great idea easy and readily available materials


----------



## Lumber Jack Jason

BobL said:


> *A range of setups*
> 
> Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.
> 
> Unistrut log rails
> View attachment 325837
> 
> 
> Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.
> View attachment 325838
> 
> 
> Boomerang shaped log
> View attachment 325839
> 
> View attachment 325840
> 
> 
> Another tricky to start log
> View attachment 325841
> 
> 
> Small mill with Mac 10-10
> View attachment 325842
> 
> 
> Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!
> View attachment 325843
> 
> 
> 16ft cedar
> View attachment 325844
> 
> 
> Enough?





BobL said:


> *A range of setups*
> 
> Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.
> 
> Unistrut log rails
> View attachment 325837
> 
> 
> Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.
> View attachment 325838
> 
> 
> Boomerang shaped log
> View attachment 325839
> 
> View attachment 325840
> 
> 
> Another tricky to start log
> View attachment 325841
> 
> 
> Small mill with Mac 10-10
> View attachment 325842
> 
> 
> Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!
> View attachment 325843
> 
> 
> 16ft cedar
> View attachment 325844
> 
> 
> Enough?


thanks for the ideas how do you have your end stands attached to the uni struts


----------



## BobL

Lumber Jack Jason said:


> thanks for the ideas how do you have your end stands attached to the uni struts


Check out the first page of this thread - towards the bottom of the page.


----------



## Ironbark084

BobL said:


> My tips for Alaskan style milling
> 1) Clean the log of as much grit and bark as you can and clear sufficient working space around the log.
> 
> 2) if at all possible, get the log up off the ground onto gluts or sawhorses so you are milling in as standing a position as possible. You should not have to bend over significantly or mill on your knees.
> 
> 3) place the log on a slope so that you are milling downhill and gravity aids the cutting process
> 
> 4) start with a freshly sharpened chain with rakers set correctly and don't let the chain go blunt. Stop and sharpen or change chains often.
> 
> 5) add extra handles to the mill or wrap handle on the saw so your arms are not spread apart. This allows you to comfortably lean on the mill with straighten arms. The more handles you have, The more variations in arm and standing position you can use which helps relieve fatigue. Add anti vibe grips to handles.
> 
> 6) If you are milling over about 24" in width consider adding an auxiliary oiler to the outboard end of the bar to protect the bar and chain.
> 
> 7) add rollers or wheels to the inboard side of the mill that makes contact with the log so the mill does not constantly jam up against the side of the log
> 
> 8) use log rails that are longer than the log so that the mill can perch on the end of the log while the saw is being started
> 
> 9) on really hard wood, if the log is partially dry, remove the first 6" or so of the starting end of the log, so you are not cutting into dead dry wood where you lose 90% of the chain sharpness.
> 
> 10) when finishing a cut, before stopping the engine let it idle for 30 seconds or so, so it can cool down a bit .
> 
> 11) orient the milling so the saw is downwind of the operator to reduce exposure to exhaust and sawdust.
> 
> 12) stop to admire and chimp the wood grain often - remember you will never see it looking so vivid and natural again, EVER!
> 
> 
> Things to watch out for
> a) the CS bar and the CS milling rails not being parallel to each other across the mill. This will cause the mill to rise or more likely dive making it harder and harder to cut. This can be cause by poor construction or dropping or damaging a mill.
> 
> b) loose nuts/bolts/bits on the saw and mill. If they fall they are dangerous if they hit the chain and you may never see them again amongst the piles of sawdust generated by milling. Check all fasteners and use Loctite where appropriate.
> 
> c) loose mill/bar bolts. If you forget, the chain could be toast in fractions of a second.
> 
> d) PPE. High quality hearing protection is even more essential than regular sawing because of the prolonged exposure. Consider using 30dB+ muffs.
> 
> e) pushing too hard. If you have to push hard, something is not right usually its just 4) especially the rakers not set properly but occasionally its a)
> 
> That will do for now!
> 
> Cheers


That was a great read. Very good advice.
I just joined today.
Could you please steer me where I can get some milling help.
I'm not sure why my 6 metre logs, cut with a Granberg/42 inch bar set up, slightly bows up in the middle.
Cheers
Andy


----------



## skindaddy

Rob D said:


> Thought I'd add to this thread and reiterate - keep increasing your knowledge of chain sharpening - it is everything.
> 
> 
> Also now there are lots more people using winching kits. I'd stopped chainsaw milling in bulk a coupe of years ago - this winching kit takes a huge 80% strain off the operator and once used you would never go back again to pushing a mill. It's not a problem now to be milling most of the day.
> 
> 
> Pull start cord stretches and evens the pull. Easy to control feed speed.
> 
> i'm just starting to get into research on the granberg mkIII (I think) can this winch be added to that mill? are you guys building your own winch or buy accessory/
> 
> anyone know of some good how to get started videos on youtube or such?


----------



## joel logger

Just wanted to say that the information in this thread is pure gold! For a newbie like me this forum is invaluable. I've been lurking here for a while and I'm particularly interested in the different ways of sharpening the rip chain. This is the most confusing part for a beginner like me. I've done some milling on and off now for about a year and I bought a grinder from Logosol to sharpen my chains, and as mentioned earlier theres a huge difference between a brand new stihl ripping chain and one thats been sharpened a few times.. It just won't bite like it did brand new! I see BobL talking about RA being the main culprit and I've been trying to figure this one out. Can anyone help me out by explaining how I would go about finding the RA on the chain, and how to actually set the right depth/angle, tools & techniques used etc.. All I got right now is the standard flat file and a guide plate for doing the rakers.


----------



## BobL

Raker guide plates are basically useless at accurately setting the RA 



joel logger said:


> Can anyone help me out by explaining how I would go about finding the RA on the chain, and how to actually set the right depth/angle, tools & techniques used etc.. All I got right now is the standard flat file and a guide plate for doing the rakers.



Have a look at this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
The method of setting the RA to better suit the extent of cutter wear is called "Progressive raker depth setting"

The discussion in that thread starts by referring to something called an "FOP".
FOP is a Carlton "File=O=Plate" which is a raker angle setting jig which better than the flat guide plates but still does not allow a sharpener to set the RA to the angle that suits their setup.
BUT Read on through the thread and you will see how I go about progressive raker depth setting in great detail.
Post 67 has a link to a video of the process.

Just to be clear I don't set the RAs exactly every time I touch the rakers as that would take too long. 
I usually set the RA after a long milling day or couple of days. 
In the field I give the rakers a couple of swipes after every 3-4 cutter touch ups.

BTW there are flat Oregon Raker guides that range from 0.025 "in steps of 0.005" (0.025, 0.030, 0.035" etc) to to 0.070" which allow you to adjust the raker angle.
The larger sizes are for Harvester chains but they will work for regular chains as well. 
However you cannot set the rakers in between these sizes using these guides.

The beauty of progressive raker depth setting is that you don't need to worry about setting the length of the cutters alike because it's really about getting the RA the same. Not that I'm that exact about it.
If my RAs are within 0.5º that's fine and if the odd one is even 1º over they I don't worry about it.


----------



## Cedar Eater

I just finished reading all the way through this thread and I want to thank all who have contributed, especially BobL. This is my first post here. I joined mainly to learn more about CSMing after I built my first CSM for a project that I'm working on. My mill worked well, but I learned a lot about other things, like progressive raker angle filing, drilling through the nose sprocket, and ripping chain.


----------



## diesel&coffee

Mr. Bob...

Long time no log in here. It looks like all your pic on milling rig/jigs for chainsaws are no longer around?? Is this the case?

Your links/threads are there - but no pix ?

Insert: I take that back ( the 880, 076 an 660 have no images )

All the best


----------



## BobL

diesel&coffee said:


> Mr. Bob...
> Long time no log in here. It looks like all your pic on milling rig/jigs for chainsaws are no longer around?? Is this the case?
> Your links/threads are there - but no pix ?
> Insert: I take that back ( the 880, 076 an 660 have no images )
> All the best



AS lost heaps of pics a couple of years back - I managed to insert a few pics but there is far too many to insert all of them. I though I was good because I had the same pics on a Aussie forum but a few weeks ago the same thing happened on that forum. I thought the site got hacked but apparently it's it was cause by forum software update that screwed all the image links.

If you want specific photos I can repost a few for you in the main forum.


----------



## Hoodiegadoo

Couple pictures of my mills in action.


----------



## SeMoTony

BobL said:


> If the chains is truly sharp even at shallow log angles there should be no need for even a winch.
> View attachment 348218


 Followed this idea and other shared experiences of Bobl and my milling got better.Didn't see way to tilt stump in avatar tho ;-)


----------



## peter92

Im really learning heaps here guys but can some one explain how to start milling the log please , pic 145 , how to set up and every thing after that
Ive never done it before 
Peter


----------



## BobL

peter92 said:


> Im really learning heaps here guys but can some one explain how to start milling the log please , pic 145 , how to set up and every thing after that


Look at post number 12 in this thread for some examples of starting setup


----------



## peter92

BobL said:


> Look at post number 12 in this thread for some examples of starting setup


Thanks Bob , must of mist that or didnt take it in when reading it all , have a merry christmas


----------



## peter92

peter92 said:


> Thanks Bob , must of mist that or didnt take it in when reading it all , have a merry christmas


Oh right , so it all starts with the rails on and then they can be taken off 
Now about chains 
Ive been advised to use Skip chain for milling , is this the way to go


----------



## BobL

peter92 said:


> . . . so it all starts with the rails on and then they can be taken off



yep - they are basically called log rails. These can be a ladder, a custom made frame or for narrower logs even a board tek screws to the log can be good enough.
Personally I like my adjustable purposed built log rails but here I'm just using a deck board made out of plastic milk bottles.
On bigger logs I prefer to use the log rails for every cut. Doing this has many advantages
- corrections to any twist in the cut can be made
- log rails have less contact resistance with the mill rails than chain cut wood
- the gaps between the two sets of rails enable things like wedges and a hammer to be place on top of the log for use during the cut. If no rails are used the mill rails will sweep everything off the top to the log.






> Now about chains
> Ive been advised to use Skip chain for milling , is this the way to go


For test runs you can just use the chain you already have.


----------



## peter92

BobL said:


> yep - they are basically called log rails. These can be a ladder, a custom made frame or for narrower logs even a board tek screws to the log can be good enough.
> Personally I like my adjustable purposed built log rails but here I'm just using a deck board made out of plastic milk bottles.
> On bigger logs I prefer to use the log rails for every cut. Doing this has many advantages
> - corrections to any twist in the cut can be made
> - log rails have less contact resistance with the mill rails than chain cut wood
> - the gaps between the two sets of rails enable things like wedges and a hammer to be place on top of the log for use during the cut. If no rails are used the mill rails will sweep everything off the top to the log.
> 
> View attachment 545630
> 
> 
> 
> For test runs you can just use the chain you already have.


Thanks Bob , thats very helpful 
I supose we have to learn some where , will be interesting to see how i go in the new year


----------



## cubevandude

BobL said:


> *Railomatic's good stuff!*
> 
> I don't know what happened to Railomatic who was one of the most innovative CS mill designers to post on AS. He posted a lot of photos of his mills back in 2007/8 mainly linked to a photobucket account which has also disappeared but some of his posts did include photos posted direct to AS.
> 
> I thought I would repost some of his posts here including his photos here because they really deserve to be seen, especially by newbies and folks looking for interesting CS mill designs and you may also see where I got several ideas for my mills from. You will also see the outstanding quality of finish that he was able to fabricate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More in the next post



Is there any chance the pictures of Railomatic's CS Mill can be reuploaded by someone?


----------



## BobL

images got lost like everyone else in 2010, and for while his photo bucket account was working and I linked to some of his photos but that now too has died.
You could try PMing him


----------



## Thefishguy77

Great sticky. Going to have to read it again and again. Have a few large chunks of maple down I need to measure the widest part of. Want to do live edge table slabs. 

Think I will be heading to a local saw shop to have them help me get setup with a 40" ish bar. To big for the saws power, CS6700, but I will just go slow and probably use a winch setup to reduce fatigue. I am sure I will have many many questions. But this thread answered so many. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skindaddy

is there a trick to keeping the bark on a live edge plank? prob tree has to be alive when cut down too.


----------



## BobL

Why do you want to keep it on? Its just a hideaway place for bugs, pests and fungi. Inside a house as it slowly disintegrates it makes a mess. 
I don't know about your woods but it just doesn't stay on on any of the trees I've milled.


----------



## skindaddy

i just assumed it was suppose to stay on, ive seen some table that still had it on. thanks for clearing that up.
another subject bobl just by chance what flat files do you prefer to use?


----------



## BobL

skindaddy said:


> i just assumed it was suppose to stay on, ive seen some table that still had it on. thanks for clearing that up.


I have heard of the bark being glued back on after it has fallen off.



> another subject bobl just by chance what flat files do you prefer to use?


I'm not that fussy, currently I'm using a couple of Pferd but have used Vallorbe and Nicolson


----------



## Cabin by the Creek

In my field kit is always spare nuts and bolts for the mill and saw. Loosing them ends the day quick. Also
Compressed air can (like you use on computers) to blow out filter
level, square,
tarp I lay down (when I remember) makes dust collection a lot easier
log dogs
jack
peavey
stickers


----------



## Cabin by the Creek

BobL said:


> It depends how crafty you are.
> 
> I got this log off the ground.
> View attachment 325834
> 
> 
> With this.
> View attachment 325835
> 
> View attachment 325836
> 
> Full thread here.
> 
> The hi-lift jack lifts 7500 lbs and I picked a used one for US$30 and modifying it took a couple of hours. Admittedly It's not something I like carrying more than about 100 yards but otherwise it's well worth the effort.


That's cool. Do you have a pic of the log lift add on. I would like to add it to my current jack set up


----------



## BobL

I'm not sure how big your logs are or how high you plan on lifting logs, and what sort of soils and slopes you are working on, but I would like to see the base a bit wider and something solid instead of those cables. Remember with cable you're relying on just one of the cables, with something like solid angle iron or SHS, both sides provide support.


----------



## Johnnybar

BobL said:


> I'm not sure how big your logs are or how high you plan on lifting logs, and what sort of soils and slopes you are working on, but I would like to see the base a bit wider and something solid instead of those cables. Remember with cable you're relying on just one of the cables, with something like solid angle iron or SHS, both sides provide support.


Agree, I've seen far too many cable clamps hold about 10% of what I thought they should have been able to hold.


----------



## Albert Beerstein

BobL said:


> Raker guide plates are basically useless at accurately setting the RA
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
> The method of setting the RA to better suit the extent of cutter wear is called "Progressive raker depth setting"
> 
> The discussion in that thread starts by referring to something called an "FOP".
> FOP is a Carlton "File=O=Plate" which is a raker angle setting jig which better than the flat guide plates but still does not allow a sharpener to set the RA to the angle that suits their setup.
> BUT Read on through the thread and you will see how I go about progressive raker depth setting in great detail.
> Post 67 has a link to a video of the process.
> 
> Just to be clear I don't set the RAs exactly every time I touch the rakers as that would take too long.
> I usually set the RA after a long milling day or couple of days.
> In the field I give the rakers a couple of swipes after every 3-4 cutter touch ups.
> 
> BTW there are flat Oregon Raker guides that range from 0.025 "in steps of 0.005" (0.025, 0.030, 0.035" etc) to to 0.070" which allow you to adjust the raker angle.
> The larger sizes are for Harvester chains but they will work for regular chains as well.
> However you cannot set the rakers in between these sizes using these guides.
> 
> The beauty of progressive raker depth setting is that you don't need to worry about setting the length of the cutters alike because it's really about getting the RA the same. Not that I'm that exact about it.
> If my RAs are within 0.5º that's fine and if the odd one is even 1º over they I don't worry about it.





My way of setting the rakers for milling is with this modified universal setter, the end is ground to 7° and a strip of aluminium glued to it locates the start of the taper at the cutting edge of the tooth, so the raker is always at 7° from this point if filed down to the guideView attachment 573506
View attachment 573506
View attachment 573507
View attachment 573506
View attachment 573507


----------



## millHouseMod

I have read over this here and there over later years until now finally joining since im nearing my initial mill setup.
I am running a fully redone* 272xp* with a 20" that I have done half dz cord firewood so far. Love the saw!

The current trees laying in my woods range from Hickory/Maple/Oak sizes 15"-36" rounds
The big oak at 36" would be quartered (its probably rotted into the sap wood) down to a smaller square dimension to then make slabs.

Knowing this, *what bar* would you guys start with to handle even the big oak, OR would you forget about that oak and tackle smaller logs to gain experience and then have to buy another bar? Can my stock saw even handle that tree? Whats the largest bar I could realistically run if I setup an oil drip can?

Also, being a mechanic, steel/alum savy, where would you start on *choosing a mill* jig OR would you just make your own? Id prefer to buy/mod one rather than start scratch unless its just spacers and all-thread...


----------



## BobL

millHouseMod said:


> Also, being a mechanic, steel/alum savy, where would you start on *choosing a mill* jig OR would you just make your own? Id prefer to buy/mod one rather than start scratch unless its just spacers and all-thread...



Have another look at post #60 of this thread and you will see the basic mods I recommend for a CS mill. Only you can ascertain if by the time you do all these mods it would have been quicker/better to make one from scratch. Personally I reckon a mill that is bolted to the bar bolts makes for a stiffer stronger mill and that will require you to build it from scratch. However, that is only needed for bigger saws so for your saw it doesn't matter.


----------



## Derf

Good thread


----------



## AlaskanMillWinch4Life

What raker depth do you guys/gals run on your 3120 for milling?


----------



## BobL

AlaskanMillWinch4Life said:


> What raker depth do you guys/gals run on your 3120 for milling?



Chains cut much better if you don't use a fixed raker depth. To maintain cutting performance right to the end of the chains life look at running a constant raker angle.
The optimum angle depends on saw power, width of cut and hardness of wood.
See post 141 in this thread.

Stock chain has a raker angle of 5.7º - this equates to 25"' when the gullet is 0.25".
To maintain this raker angle the raker depth should be 30"' when the gullet is 0.30"
And when the gullet is 0.35" the raker depth should be 35"'
when the gullet is 0.40" the raker depth should be 40"'
etc
I have done some milling with my mates 3120 and we used an raker angle of 6.5º for Aussie hardwood which is very hard.
This log has been on the ground for nearly 100 years.



In softwoods I would start at 7º on a 3120 for up to about 50" wide cuts in your softwoods.
Then increment the angle by ~0.5º until it starts to stall and back it off from there.


----------



## Derf

BobL said:


> Chains cut much better if you don't use a fixed raker depth. To maintain cutting performance right to the end of the chains life look at running a constant raker angle.
> The optimum angle depends on saw power, width of cut and hardness of wood.
> See post 141 in this thread.
> 
> Stock chain has a raker angle of 5.7º - this equates to 25"' when the gullet is 0.25".
> To maintain this raker angle the raker depth should be 30"' when the gullet is 0.30"
> And when the gullet is 0.35" the raker depth should be 35"'
> when the gullet is 0.40" the raker depth should be 40"'
> etc
> I have done some milling with my mates 3120 and we used an raker angle of 6.5º for Aussie hardwood which is very hard.
> This log has been on the ground for nearly 100 years.
> View attachment 622583
> 
> 
> In softwoods I would start at 7º on a 3120 for up to about 50" wide cuts in your softwoods.
> Then increment the angle by ~0.5º until it starts to stall and back it off from there.



Can you quickly explain some notation for me?
I see you know the symbol for degrees. 
10º = 10 degrees
I understand a single quote to mean feet.
10’ = 10 feet
A double quote means inches.
10” = 10 inches
What is your triple quote symbol mean?

Also, you mentioned Aussie hard wood, so I take it you are Australian. I’m American, and I thought we were about the only country in the world that uses imperial (inches) while just about everyone else uses metric (meters). So also correct me if I’m wrong assuming that you were referencing inches and feet. [do Australians use inches and feet?]


----------



## BobL

Derf said:


> Can you quickly explain some notation for me?
> What is your triple quote symbol mean?
> 
> 
> 
> "' means "thousandths of an inch" - this symbol is commonly used by metal workers especially in machine shops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, you mentioned Aussie hard wood, so I take it you are Australian. I’m American, and I thought we were about the only country in the world that uses imperial (inches) while just about everyone else uses metric (meters). So also correct me if I’m wrong assuming that you were referencing inches and feet. [do Australians use inches and feet?]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia has officially used the metric system since the 1970's but I am old enough to have been around and gone to school in the 1960's when we used the Imperial (ft and inches, lbs etc) system.
> At high school I learned to use both imperial and metric. At college we used nearly all metric but the occasional, mainly older, professors still used Imperial and some used CGS (a variant of metric that uses centimetres, grams and seconds, and "dynes" and "ergs" for force and energy) so students had to be able to convert between all 3 systems. During my professional life as a research scientist we only used metric for anything official but I still remember and can think easily in Imperial. One of the many things I got involved with at work was designing and building ultra clean laboratories which used large air flows. This has come in handy in designing and testing wood dust extraction systems which I have continued to do since I retired. As I always did the calculations in my head for these systems in Imperial I have continued to do this so I think of air flow in "Cubic Ft per minute" and air speed in "Ft/min".
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Derf

That’s a really cool story! I didn’t realize Australia converted to metric. I wish the US would do so as well, but I have little hope for that. I wonder what precipitated Australia pushing to change over?

Thanks for the “‘ lesson. I work in a machine shop and I haven’t seen anyone use that, they usually just write 25 thou, or 0.025


----------



## CR888

I like Bob's depth ingenious gauge tool. Why can't a company that's been in the saw/chain business for half a century do that!


----------



## BobL

Derf said:


> That’s a really cool story! I didn’t realize Australia converted to metric. I wish the US would do so as well, but I have little hope for that. I wonder what precipitated Australia pushing to change over?



The US is one of 3 countries in the world (the other two are Libya and Myanmar) that does not use metric. 
The primary driver for change was for standardisation of trade between countries.
After WWII Australia started to trade with more countries outside those from the old British empire that it used Imperial it became easier to use metric.
You probably know this but maybe some others don't.
A major reason is it is much/much easier to use as all the sub units of a quantity are factors of 10, 100 or 1000 etc.
10x10x10 mm = 1m, 10x10x10 m = 1km etc
Try converting 123456789" into miles compared to 123456789 mm into km.

From Wikipedia


> U.S. remains the only industrialised country that has not fully adopted the metric system as its official system of measurement, although in 1988 the United States Congress passed the Omnibus Foreign Trade and Competitiveness Act, which designates "the metric system of measurement as the preferred system of weights and measures for U.S. trade and commerce". Among many other things, the act requires federal agencies to use metric measurements in nearly all of its activities



It's mainly US engineering/building type activities that drives the continued use imperial because of the HUGE cost of converting shop tooling and machinery. However all US scientists I know use metric especially if they need to work with scientists outside the US. When I worked at UCSD in the late 1980's everything was in metric. I have also since done a bit of collaborative research with the USGS in Denver and Virgina and they have always used metric for any communications with me.

At least the US has decimal currency. 
Up until 1966 Australia had the old English currency system, 12 pence = 1 shilling, 20 shillings = 1 pound, when we switched over to decimal currency. 
I still remember when it happened - despite the threats that "the sky would fall" it all went very smoothly and within a couple of months I certainly had forgotten about the old money. 



> I work in a machine shop and I haven’t seen anyone use that, they usually just write 25 thou, or 0.025


I think it might be more English than US notation.



> I like Bob's depth ingenious gauge tool. Why can't a company that's been in the saw/chain business for half a century do that!


Which tool is that?


----------



## Sashadeboer

Great pictures guys, really helpful


----------



## CR888

I was referring to the depth gauge posted by Albert Beerstein with the fixed 7° ramp on its front. Sit it love the chain and easily maintain that 7° angle-of-attack. Sorry I thought it was Bob's gauge. I often have chains with not so perfect cutter lengths, I refuse to grind all cutters to match the shortest one, this guide would make easy work setting each depth gauge according to length/height of each individual cutter.


----------



## BereanAuden

BEEN MILLIn and stacking and drying cypress and pecan for the first time. I can help with advice and am welcome to others'. My wood is going to be processed myself (tongue-in-groove) then used as flooring and walls in my tiny home on a 30ft gooseneck trailer.


----------



## BereanAuden

millHouseMod said:


> I have read over this here and there over later years until now finally joining since im nearing my initial mill setup.
> I am running a fully redone* 272xp* with a 20" that I have done half dz cord firewood so far. Love the saw!
> 
> The current trees laying in my woods range from Hickory/Maple/Oak sizes 15"-36" rounds
> The big oak at 36" would be quartered (its probably rotted into the sap wood) down to a smaller square dimension to then make slabs.
> 
> Knowing this, *what bar* would you guys start with to handle even the big oak, OR would you forget about that oak and tackle smaller logs to gain experience and then have to buy another bar? Can my stock saw even handle that tree? Whats the largest bar I could realistically run if I setup an oil drip can?
> 
> Also, being a mechanic, steel/alum savy, where would you start on *choosing a mill* jig OR would you just make your own? Id prefer to buy/mod one rather than start scratch unless its just spacers and all-thread...


It is just spacers and all-thread...


----------



## HorsesanHarleys

Hey guys an gals. New to this site. Totally off grid homestead with a long trip to civilization for building materials so had to get creative


----------



## Johnnym

Wow, and get creative you did!
Can you tell us a bit about the setup. 
Does it make only 2x lumber or can you change the thickness?


----------



## Hoodiegadoo

That’s awesome! Love it


----------



## WolfMann

Thought this graphic on making dimensional lumber with a chainsaw mill was neat. Found it, and some other good info on the Granberg website.


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

New to this, read some good stuff, thought I’d share something I learned today. I was a timber faller in western Washington for 20 years and I used full skip chisel chain. For me and many that I worked with, a chain started to come to life after 3-6 grinds (sharpenings) and if it was never rocked , seemed best when about about 2/3 down. I never changed anything and was buzzing right through Doug fir logs 20-40”, then , steady decline. I didn’t want to mess with my angles since I still need good chains for side jobs at times so I tried playing with the corners, etc. finally grabbed a once ran chain that the corners got banged up pretty good so it got hung up for a rainy day. Bang! Cutting awesome again! No idea why the newer chain cuts sooo much better ripping. I know the 2/3 chain I pulled would be waaay faster in a normal cross cut, I didn’t even clean the corners up completely on the newer chain. Hope this helps somebody


----------



## BobL

Trdoldtreecutter said:


> No idea why the newer chain cuts sooo much better ripping.



If you want to see new chain really sparkle try dropping the rakers before you cut anything. Stock rakers settings on new chains tend to be on the wussy side to cater for the average Joe (less kickback, poor B&C maintenance) but a careful CS miller with good power head can easily work with much lower rakers especially in your softer woods. Check out "Progressive raker setting" and you will have better than new chain performance for almost the whole life of the chain. https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/


----------



## George Hurchalla

After having replaced or sharpened nearly every cutting edge in my wood shop in the past week, I'm reminded more than ever how much more I need to keep on top of my sharpening. Everything is fairly effortless with sharp edges. Everything is a struggle without them. BobL, I know you've stressed how easy it is to dull edges in a heartbeat in dirty wood and steps to avoid it, but it really sunk in during my last round of mesquite milling. With all my types of wood cutting/planing, I've had a bad habit of going by "amount of use" to gauge when it's time to sharpen an edge, rather than admit that the edge needs sharpening if the machine is struggling to make a good cut, even if I just sharpened it yesterday. Mesquite has such dirty thick bark that you're guaranteed to dull chains quickly unless you debark it, as much of a pain in the ass as it can be to do so. Also, mesquite tends to contain a lot of dead spots of rotten wood that will dull the chain quickly and you never know where you'll find them. I checked out all the opinions on winches out of curiosity, which would certainly come in handy when I'm pushing hard with a dull chain, but even in a really hard wood like mesquite, I've found with freshly sharpened chain on my 880, it just wants to eat it up and I only lightly guide it, I don't have to push it. That's kind of a standard I think I've learned for when to sharpen. If I'm having to push, sharpen the chain.
I was also reading this whole thread and others for thoughts on rails/ladders on every cut or just the first cut. I've gone back and forth, but have much preferred the results using them on every cut. When I don't use rails, I struggle solo with my 880 at keeping the mill level as I first initiate the cut and end up with unevenness in the first six inches, and tend to get the same at the other end finishing the cut. 
I had some terrible washboarding issues when my son helped me one day who has no familiarity with milling, and he tried to attribute it to the chain loosening up. I've almost never had washboarding issues on my own. I was thinking it mostly had to do with him pushing too hard on his side - every time I've ever had a novice help me I've had to tell them to stop pushing so much - and also him cantilevering his push by holding the vertical post up high and pushing. But even more so, I think it was him knocking in wedges behind the cut way too far and lifting the wood too much so that it was tilting the mill from the back end and always pushing it to dig in. I had not even been putting wedges in behind me with mesquite most of the time because it didn't really sag and close up at all. When I went back to milling on my own, I had smooth results again. I haven't really seen it warned about or mentioned that in milling you only put in wedges to keep the cut open to the width of the cut. Some people treat wedges like they do when felling and drive them in and open the cut way too much and tilt the angle of attack of the mill. 
What should be a bit of a game changer for keeping myself working more steadily is that I got my two old 87cc Stihls back from my place in Mexico, only one of which I ever expected to work. But I did the ignition fix on the 045 successfully and now I have three big saws to choose from, and can start milling with 3/8" chain some on smaller hardwoods. I remember you saying, BobL, that you didn't see much of a difference between a 660 with 3/8 and 880 w/ .404 in narrower hardwoods, but you also mentioned my 045 and 056 Supers were considerably lower revs than the 660, if only marginally less powerful, so I won't get the higher chain speed benefit so much from them that I would from the 660. Even still, it will be interesting to do some direct comparisons of the two setups.


----------



## Mtn Woodworks

I am so glad I came across this thread! What a wealth of information. Tax returns are coming before long and I will be getting a 48” mill with either a ms660 or an 070 that I may possibly upgrade later to an 090 jug(if needed). An 880 or 3120 is just out of the question. I’ll mostly be milling white oak and eucalyptus and the occasional pine/spruce/cedar. Trees in my area rearely get over 30-36” bit we do have a few 4’ pines and I would like to mill crotch slabs for tables so I think I would rather have to set up wider rails then miss out on free logs from the local tree services! Thanks for setting this post up and contributing to it!


----------



## BobL

UOTE="Mtn Woodworks, post: 6774965, member: 161087"]I am so glad I came across this thread! What a wealth of information. . . . . . Thanks for setting this post up and contributing to it![/QUOTE]

Glad to be of service. Post some pics of you milled bits and pieces in your thread once you get going and feel free to post questions as well. We're all learning one way or another.


----------



## George Hurchalla

Mtn Woodworks said:


> I will be getting a 48” mill with either a ms660 or an 070 that I may possibly upgrade later to an 090 jug(if needed). An 880 or 3120 is just out of the question. I’ll mostly be milling white oak and eucalyptus and the occasional pine/spruce/cedar.


 Though initially a fan of bigger is better after getting an impossibly good deal on a new 880, my go to milling setup for most logs these days is my old 87cc Stihl 045 Super with a 32" bar. Saving the 880 for the big work. I think a 660 will be plenty for most everything you want to do. Much easier starting it and much lighter to handle lifting on and off the logs. Like I realized in an above post, becoming a master sharpener is about the biggest favor you can do yourself in milling, so you can constantly touch up the chain sharpness while milling. A small bit of extra work that will save you untold hours of labor in the long run.


----------



## csmillingnoob

Hello everybody. First post.

I started getting into milling with the thought that i was going to mill some 20-ish inch cedar for decks, fencing etc on October 1, 2018.

Then, Hurricane Michael hit on October 10th. Now, I am up to my ears in red oak and pecan blowdowns. Needless to say, I had to add a bigger saw than the 372xp I had originally planned to get by with. This weekend, I will be milling an 8 ft x 36-43 inch Live Oak that I squared up to 34' last Saturday. That stuff makes pecan seem like balsa. Nasty, nasty bark too.

Great thread and site!


----------



## csmillingnoob

"*Inboard Rollers" *to keep friction down when the chain pulls the saw hard up to the edge ?

Does anybody have pics of what they have used for that modification? I really want to try this!


----------



## George Hurchalla

csmillingnoob said:


> "*Inboard Rollers" *to keep friction down when the chain pulls the saw hard up to the edge ?
> 
> Does anybody have pics of what they have used for that modification? I really want to try this!


 Heard people talk about it but had been satisfied enough with the curved lower guide on my Granberg mill that keeps me from hanging up. Still does periodically though on the irregular wood I mill, so might be worth me giving it a shot. Judging by Granberg's G988 (which I'm not sure they make anymore) all you do is drill some holes further outboard in the lower guide clamp, get some old rollerblade urethane wheels and bearings and attach them to some 2.5-3" long 8mm bolts. Would use 8mm nylon locknuts, one to tighten the bolt to the clamp, and then sandwich the wheel between that and a locknut below it. https://granberg.com/product/g988-10-roller-bracket/


----------



## csmillingnoob

Looks like Lowes has some sliding patio door rollers that could be modified with a longer bolt


----------



## J-Rod

csmillingnoob said:


> Looks like Lowes has some sliding patio door rollers that could be modified with a longer bolt


Greetings from little Barbados. I have been tinkering with saws for a little while (even tried my hand at porting Shinny 488) and I love woodwork. last couple years I have been doing my own milling with a mill that I made from PV racking extrusions. I was looking at rollers too as you mentioned, they may work well but I think I may just stick to the standard skids, got to be better than what I have now (which is nothing). will Likely use 1/8" thick Aluminum bar welded to the clamp like the Granberg. Has anyone here made their own Auxiliary oiler? cheaper than buying the Granberg kit?
Currently running a 42" bar on my Shindaiwa 757 and its ok at the moment with onboard oiler set to max however I think it may be wise to add some oil at other end! Lord knows i will need one for the 60" bar when it arrives for the CS1201. Anyhow, great being here as I have learned so much from reading these forums!


----------



## csmillingnoob

J-Rod

The Granber oiler is not very expensive. However, it's pretty easy to make one with pvc scrap and an ice maker line kit. Go sit down at a plumber supply store and tell the guys you want to line oil from a pvc reservoir onto your bar tip and have a cutoff valve. Any decent store will help you build it there


----------



## csmillingnoob

Found the perfect (for me) FREE inboard rollers. Happy day

Front wheels with of a grocery buggy with the outer band of rubber tire removed. Fits perfectly on my ersatz Granberg (Holzfforma). Just replaced the inboard bolts with 4 1/2 inchers.

I live on the dividing line of old money neighborhood and the ghetto. Homeless people and just plain poor people without cars wander down alleys in the neighborhood frequently with grocery carts. Nearby grocery stores send trucks out frequently to pick up abandoned grocery carts. I found one that looked like it had been hit by a car. Measured the front wheels and discovered that they were perfect. Loaded it in my truck and drove to the grocery store. Asked them if they wanted it back and explained what I wanted it for. They said I could have it. I can use the basket portion to toss scraps in. If I can find another damaged cart, I can use the larger back wheels to make a slab transport cart. *A good junkin' day! *

Check with your local grocery stores. They scrap carts from time to time.


----------



## Ancient One

Good find and a good use of the other person's "Junk"

Happiness in my shop is well stocked junk boxes! Surprising what I can make from the salvaged and saved items.

Yesterday I was rummaging around and found what I had considered buying: A new old stock rim and drum for my Stihl 090AV. The saw currently has the old spur type drum/sprocket, I like a rim and drum as there is less friction and chain wear. Saw a couple on ebay for $200!!!! Wow, talk about scalping for old rare items. There is an Australian shop that lists a 090 rim/drum for $37 plus about $40 shipping to the US and I am sure a long wait. But I was afraid this is a china copy, I avoid china stuff.

Below, the rare Oregon 12004 rim & drum:








Compared to a rim & drum for a 125 McCulloch:


----------



## TheStihlSlinger

Fairly new to milling. Love all the good info in this site. I’m running a Stihl 880 with a 40” bar in a 36” Granberg for the smaller logs and a 60” bar in a 72” Granberg for the bigger stuff. Saving up for a bigger bar or possibly a second power head to take full advantage of the bigger mill. What are everyone’s thoughts on using an 8 pin sprocket for the 40” bar in softer woods or even smaller hardwood? Will the extra chain speed outweigh the loss in power?


----------



## BobL

TheStihlSlinger said:


> What are everyone’s thoughts on using an 8 pin sprocket for the 40” bar in softer woods or even smaller hardwood? Will the extra chain speed outweigh the loss in power?



In say 30" wood, if max power is utilised in both cases, then pin number and chain setup are trade offs. If the chain is optimised for 7 pin and then you switch to 8 pin the power head should bog down, If VV then more dust and less chips should be made. If the chain is optimised for each pin count you should get about the same cut speed. With a 7 pin the chain setup can be a bit more aggressive so with its slower chain speed it removes about the same about of wood as a less aggressive setting when used with the 8pin. Then if you use skip or full comp this changes things again

On my 880 (with mild muffler mod) with the 42" bar I use, 3/8 full comp chain with an 8pin and 6.5º raker angle in much harder wood than anything you guys see in NA. The only time I will swap to a 7 pin with the 42" bar would be for something like Iron bark. Thats about twice as hard green as your hickory is dry. With the 60" bar I use the 7 pin.


----------



## TheStihlSlinger

BobL said:


> In say 30” wood, if max power is utilised in both cases, then pin number and chain setup are trade offs. If the chain is optimised for 7 pin and then you switch to 8 pin the power head should bog down, If VV then more dust and less chips should be made. If the chain is optimised for each pin count you should get about the same cut speed. With a 7 pin the chain setup can be a bit more aggressive so with its slower chain speed it removes about the same about of wood as a less aggressive setting when used with the 8pin. Then if you use skip or full comp this changes things again
> 
> On my 880 (with mild muffler mod) with the 42" bar I use, 3/8 full comp chain with an 8pin and 6.5º raker angle in much harder wood than anything you guys see in NA. The only time I will swap to a 7 pin with the 42" bar would be for something like Iron bark. Thats about twice as hard green as your hickory is dry. With the 60" bar I use the 7 pin.


Thanks BobL. 
I appreciate your experience and info. I am currently running .404 full chisel semi skip crosscut chain with a 7 pin on both bars as that is what is readily available in my area.(Ripping chain is hard to get and almost triple the price) however I have an 8 pin I haven’t tried yet. 
I have been slowly resharpening the chains as needed by hand towards a 10degree top plate angle and trying to keep the rakers about .020 down(just starting to practice progressive raker angles)
So far ease of cut and surface finish seem to be improving nicely. 
In your opinion, does the 3/8 chain cut faster or smoother than the .404? If so, enough to warrant switching my sprocket noses over? I have two chains for each bar in .404, by the time I’ve wore through those it would be fairly cheap to switch to 3/8 full comp ( then I could buy rolls of chain and make my own loops as all my other saws run that already for firewood)
Also do you recommend full or semi chisel?


Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.


----------



## BobL

TheStihlSlinger said:


> In your opinion, does the 3/8 chain cut faster or smoother than the .404? If so, enough to warrant switching my sprocket noses over? I have two chains for each bar in .404, by the time I’ve wore through those it would be fairly cheap to switch to 3/8 full comp ( then I could buy rolls of chain and make my own loops as all my other saws run that already for firewood)


Once again, it's possible to optimise both a 404 and a 3/8 to get close to the same cutting speeds. 
Smoothness of finish is mostly due to operator skill.
The kerf differences are minimal, but the 404 does stretch less which is an advantage on long loops.



> Also do you recommend full or semi chisel?


In terms of cutting speed. in wide, long cuts, I found full chisel cuts like a demon at the beginning but then fades so that it slightly slower at the end of these cuts than semi.
Overall it comes oy about the same in terms of speed for the stuff I cut. 
In this case it would be faster for softer narrower shorter cuts. out
Full versus semi is a personal thing and as I said above finish is mostly up to operator skill but I find I am consistently able to get a better finish with semi.
Sorry for reposting this but it seems appropriate at this point.


Most CSMers I meet are impressed at this sort of finish.

My favourite story about CSM finishing is when I was milling some nature playground furniture logs at a local park in Perth. 
A couple of young fellas from a small timber town in the country were also contracted on the same playground and were on site at the same time I was there.
The town, called Manjimup, was in the heart of tall timber country about 200 miles south in the South West of Western Australia where locals have a proud timber falling/milling heritage 
Their job was to install several hundred ~1ft diameter logs from 3 to 6 ft long upright into the ground to make a sort of a wavy palisade wall around a large sand play area. 

They saw me milling and came over and one of them look at a couple of the cut surfaces and he said. "We're from Manji (short for Manjimup) and we've seen a lot of chainsaw milling but we've never seen a finish like that, especially from a city fella !"
I replied, "It's all right, I'm originally from Pemby" - Pemby is short for Pemberton, an even smaller town about 20 miles from Manjimup and even deeper into the tall timber country. 
Manji and Pemby folks are great rivals, football, milling, or who has the longest whatnots, I don't know what pissed him off more, the fact that I was from Pemby or the finish. 
Anyway he asked a lot of questions and went away saying, " . . . well I learned something "


----------



## Tpay

ok a lot of this was very helpful. I recently bought a mill and have been playing around with it, my problem is my saw. I have a cheap off brand 62cc saw with a 22" bar. I run a rip cut chain. I made my saw direct drive because I kept burning up the clutches. I was wanting to get a little more serious about it was was looking at getting a bigger saw. Does anyone have a preference? Is there anything in particular I should avoid? Money is an issue so please no High Dollar saws lol


----------



## SeMoTony

Tpay said:


> ok a lot of this was very helpful. I recently bought a mill and have been playing around with it, my problem is my saw. I have a cheap off brand 62cc saw with a 22" bar. I run a rip cut chain. I made my saw direct drive because I kept burning up the clutches. I was wanting to get a little more serious about it was was looking at getting a bigger saw. Does anyone have a preference? Is there anything in particular I should avoid? Money is an issue so please no High Dollar saws lol


In my avatar is my most expensive saw. New from the store w/25" b&c. The bar from cannon a 60" wearing a square chisel skip chain. Since then I've gotten a 046 and 661c from trading post near here. The smallest recommended is the 70cc range with a chain matched to length of cut. For example a 30" bar on an Alaskan will reach a little over 25" cut. A sharp ripping chain will work on the couple cuts that wide close to the center of a log. Part is consistant angle of cut and feed rate, both of which contribute to smoothness of cut.
On the Maple trunk, I needed 60" to reach across the branch ends. Semi-skip square chisel worked well powered around with the 661c. That pho with shipping was less than the new Ms-460, even tho the cylinder was ported and the muffler emptied before I got it from the trading post.
Save your change as the saying goes and keep a lookout on the trading post.
Mill safe


----------



## BobL

Tpay said:


> Is there anything in particular I should avoid?


Well I'd say avoid *Unbranded* saws.
Then read, study and practice the info in this thread about sharpening and raker setting.
Most peoples CSM probs are a result of poor sharpening and pushing the saw too hard.


----------



## Tpay

BobL said:


> Well I'd say avoid *Unbranded* saws.
> Then read, study and practice the info in this thread about sharpening and raker setting.
> Most peoples CSM probs are a result of poor sharpening and pushing the saw too hard.


Yeah Im starting to realize that. Problem is with me at least is Im doing this as a hobby and really dont have a whole lot of money to spend on a nice Stihl or even a Husqvarna. I recently bought a Makita 6100 for my firewood saw and really like it but the bigger(70cc and up) Makita saws are really expensive too. Ive been seeing a lot of videos on the Hultzfarma saws but once again i feel like they are too good to be true. I was given an older Poulen 3500 buts its only 60cc so Ive been looking into people who will port and polish and maybe put a bigger piston in it to beef it up a bit


----------



## BobL

Tpay said:


> . . . . . really dont have a whole lot of money to spend on a nice Stihl or even a Husqvarna.



Then you have to accept the risk of running an unbranded saw OR get a small branded saw and accept that you will only be cutting smaller diameter logs. A lot of useful milling can be done with a small branded saw as small as 50 cc. There was a member here (Stonykill) who hasn't posted for some time who used a 48 cc (Stihl 031) and a 50 cc Mac and cut a heap of furniture and musical instruments timber with these saws. The sheer amount of stuff he has produced is really impressive. Unfortunately most his early pics have gone from this thread but you can still see some of his stuff from about late 2010 onwards
https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...ng-with-your-milled-wood-merged.47084/page-33.

I would put porting and polishing to once side (it's a bit like trying to run before you can walk) and concentrate on getting the sharpening and chain set ups right as these will make far more long term gains and better protect the saw. Porting should be restricted to a mild woods port some time after getting any saw running and cutting in a stock form.


----------



## Simple Jack

Granberg milling chains what I have learned in the past few weeks. I first got them for my Still MS290/MS390 converted, for a 30" bar. I can say I was impressed how good they worked for this little saw. They cut smooth and I believe the half width cutters made it easier for the saw to go through the white oak log I was cutting. I believe a regular chain would have bogged the saw down a lot more. 

Now that I have a new 3120xp, I put the 30" bar and Granberg chains on it. First thing I noticed is that I could only give the saw about half the throttle. The saw has so much more power I do not believe the Granberg chain is a good one to run on a 30" bar. The other day I was cutting slabs and went through 3 Granberg chains cutting 12ft oak slabs, I could get about 2 slabs per chain before they were dull. I was wanting to finish the log so I threw a regular chain in it. It was a Sthil Rapid Micro. With that chain I cut through 3 slabs, and it still acted like it wanted more, but I was done with that log. The Sthil chain was twice as fast as the Granberg chain, and used half the fuel. 

So when I got home I took the rakers on the Granberg chain down quite a bit more than what it says I should. They now cut much faster than what they did. I can see where the Granberg chain would be useful for a 4ft wide hardwood slab, or a underpowered saw, but I don't believe they are the chain to use for a powerful saw, with a medium length bar. Just my opinion, and I know that don't mean much, but if you have a powerful saw, and a medium length bar, the Granberg chain isn't the one I would buy.


----------



## BobL

Simple Jack said:


> Granberg milling chains what I have learned in the past few weeks. I first got them for my Still MS290/MS390 converted, for a 30" bar. I can say I was impressed how good they worked for this little saw. They cut smooth and I believe the half width cutters made it easier for the saw to go through the white oak log I was cutting. I believe a regular chain would have bogged the saw down a lot more. .



That just means the regular chain was not set up right for the smaller saw but the Granberg was.
Remember it's up to the operator to set up the chain to suit the saw and the width of the cut and not the other way around.

If you want really sparking performance with the 3120 then look up "progressive raker depth setting". This is a way of optimising the raker depth and profile to get the best performance from a any saw.


----------



## Marine5068

BobL said:


> That just means the regular chain was not set up right for the smaller saw but the Granberg was.
> Remember it's up to the operator to set up the chain to suit the saw and the width of the cut and not the other way around.
> 
> If you want really sparking performance with the 3120 then look up "progressive raker depth setting". This is a way of optimising the raker depth and profile to get the best performance from a any saw.


Hey Bob.
Stan from Madoc, Ontario, Canada again.
I'm about to start my milling on a Red Oak I have.
I have a few logs and want to practice on one before I get into the nicer 2 logs.
The smaller 'practice' logs are about 5-6 feet long and about 16"-18" in diameter.
I have a Stihl 044(72 cc) with a 28" bar and standard full comp chain on it for felling and cutting larger logs.
Can I use it to test the new Alaska mill or should I get a chain that's suited to milling hardwoods?
Just wanted to know what you think.


----------



## BobL

Marine5068 said:


> Can I use it to test the new Alaska mill or should I get a chain that's suited to milling hardwoods?
> Just wanted to know what you think.



Sure - why not. All of my new chains are full comp stock cross cutting chains and and I convert them to 10º top plate angle over successive sharpening.


----------



## Marine5068

BobL said:


> Sue - why not. All of my new chains are full comp stock cross cutting chains and and I convert them to 10º top plate angle over successive sharpening.


Thanks Bob
I'll post some pics of my first CSM milling adventure.


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

Marine5068 said:


> Thanks Bob
> I'll post some pics of my first CSM milling adventure.


I’ve noticed a couple more things, maybe just a fluke. The 395 husky wouldn’t start after shutting it off. I think the coil was getting hot. I sold it with a 42” bar and chain for $250 out of frustration. The 385 clutch isn’t good for much. The hot rodded 372 is almost too fast in say cutting 12” cus you go a little too far and forget to shove something in to keep the gap. The stock 880 is a pig but dependable. I think the compression button is a cruel joke. If you screw boards down to make long cuts, drop your cuts down below the screws.


----------



## Marine5068

Trdoldtreecutter said:


> I’ve noticed a couple more things, maybe just a fluke. The 395 husky wouldn’t start after shutting it off. I think the coil was getting hot. I sold it with a 42” bar and chain for $250 out of frustration. The 385 clutch isn’t good for much. The hot rodded 372 is almost too fast in say cutting 12” cus you go a little too far and forget to shove something in to keep the gap. The stock 880 is a pig but dependable. I think the compression button is a cruel joke. If you screw boards down to make long cuts, drop your cuts down below the screws.


Ya, you don't want to hit those screws.


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

Marine5068 said:


> Ya, you don't want to hit those screws.


neighbors of ove


Marine5068 said:


> Ya, you don't want to hit those screws.


i milled up some 22' beams for a john deere trailer yesterday. it was about a 30' doug fir, tight grain for this area(pacific northwest]. old family friends, the dads in his 90's and hes doing a total rebuild on the thing. he mentioned staying in the heartwood. 6" x 7"x 22'. no problem but was curious if theres really anything to the heartwood beam thing. as i was a timber faller in the past, i would have guessed the stronger wood on the outside. anybody on here have some insight on this? i didnt get a chance to ask him as his boys were helping and we were trying to mill the whole tree into lumber in a day, (close but no cigar). im going back next monday to finish and will try to remember to ask him . he pops by for just short visits, i think theyre now going to make some beams and boards for another hay trailer, they werent sure dimensions.


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

Oops, just read my post. It was about 30 inches in diameter not 30’. It sure makes it nice and quicker with a couple guys helping. They caught on quick and had another log ready for first cut by the time I had a fresh chain and fuel and mill adjustments. only had to flatten two sides before I was able to go to town cus they could keep it upright with the live edge down on the 4x4’s. That saved one more setup.


----------



## csmillingnoob

Has anybody conversed with Bob L lately?


----------



## TheStihlSlinger

csmillingnoob said:


> Has anybody conversed with Bob L lately?


Checked his home page. No activity since back in July. Hopefully everything is ok


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

Here’s some pics


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

Here’s some pics


----------



## Trdoldtreecutter

Couple more


----------



## BobL

TheStihlSlinger said:


> Checked his home page. No activity since back in July. Hopefully everything is ok



I'm back.
Had a bunch of health issues starting before Xmas and just to top things off I broke my ankle without knowing it and walked on it (increasingly slowly) for 6 weeks before the docs finally diagnosed it as broken. It just got more and more painful and swollen. The doc though I had gout as I tested high for Uric acid in my blood . The gout meds did nothing so he sent me off for an X-ray. Then spent 8 weeks in a moon boot doing NOTHING. Man that was hard.
Then almost immediately after I got the moon boot off I was as weak and useless as a kitten and went into a self imposed lock down due to the virus but have been almost back to normal since about August. Blood tests reduced from every two weeks to every 3 months, Hydroxycholoquine meds cut in half, Cortisone cut by 1/3rd and PET scans down to one a year (was two per year).

So have finally been able to do some woodworking, wood turning and also some metal work. Finally got the 441 today and milled some some small logs for craft wood. And due to do some more milling next week for the local Community Mens Shop.

We have no community spread virus in Western Australia (2.5 million people) for over 100 days. There are a handful off people that have the virus but are all returned Australian travellers from overseas who when they arrive immediately get locked up in hotels for two weeks and are only let out if they are virus free. No more than 500 people a week are allowed in to the state from OS. Even people coming from other Oz states have been high restricted which meant we were able to keep out an obnoxious ex-politician who took his beef to the high court for restriction of movement but he lost the case YAY!.
We have a had a grand total of 8 virus deaths since it started and our year influenza rates have dropped by about 10 times so far fewer deaths from this than usual.


----------



## OldMontanaPhart

BobL said:


> I'm back.
> Had a bunch of health issues starting before Xmas and just to top things off I broke my ankle without knowing it and walked on it (increasingly slowly) for 6 weeks before the docs finally diagnosed it as broken. It just got more and more painful and swollen. The doc though I had gout as I tested high for Uric acid in my blood . The gout meds did nothing so he sent me off for an X-ray. Then spent 8 weeks in a moon boot doing NOTHING. Man that was hard.
> Then almost immediately after I got the moon boot off I was as weak and useless as a kitten and went into a self imposed lock down due to the virus but have been almost back to normal since about August. Blood tests reduced from every two weeks to every 3 months, Hydroxycholoquine meds cut in half, Cortisone cut by 1/3rd and PET scans down to one a year (was two per year).
> 
> So have finally been able to do some woodworking, wood turning and also some metal work. Finally got the 441 today and milled some some small logs for craft wood. And due to do some more milling next week for the local Community Mens Shop.
> 
> We have no community spread virus in Western Australia (2.5 million people) for over 100 days. There are a handful off people that have the virus but are all returned Australian travellers from overseas who when they arrive immediately get locked up in hotels for two weeks and are only let out if they are virus free. No more than 500 people a week are allowed in to the state from OS. Even people coming from other Oz states have been high restricted which meant we were able to keep out an obnoxious ex-politician who took his beef to the high court for restriction of movement but he lost the case YAY!.
> We have a had a grand total of 8 virus deaths since it started and our year influenza rates have dropped by about 10 times so far fewer deaths from this than usual.


REALLY glad to hear that you are alive and on the mend, Mr. Bob-been lurking here for years soaking up some of your CSM wisdom and plan to get off my 69 yr old butt and actually TRY this stuff soon. Lumber prices here in Montana are over the moon-a 2x4x8 @ Lowes was $6.45 last week! I figure I can save myself some serious $$$ if I can manage to mill just one 16" Doug fir log 16' feet long into a dozen 2x4x8's and a half dozen 2x8x16's every week ...


----------



## miller2b

burningwood said:


> *Getting It Off The Ground*
> 
> 
> 
> I just starting milling and wOOd like some ideas (pics) on getting logs off the ground so your not milling on your knees. Some of the equipment I have are a 3000 pound warn winch, Tuf-Tug 2500 pound hoist puller with some chains and other winching equipment, snatch blocks,rigging straps and dshackles.
> 
> bw


i dont have a tractor or any other heavy equipment. however i do have a 1 ton dually pickup with a bale bed. i find i can lift quite a bit of weight using some chains.


----------



## miller2b

kiwiatgundy said:


> *question for you Bob*
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting stuff in there bob.
> Question for you, I am haveing a bugger of a time setting my rails for the first cut, especially on some of the logs 6 meters in length. At that span, i am getting a bow in the middle of the rails so I made up some plates with set screws ets that I put on the top of the log, both ends and the middle. Works well but tells blimmin ages to set up and get parrell etc. Just wondered what you did? Also, would you have a pic of your aux oiler. Wondered what sort of hose you run to the bar and how you keep the damn thing in the right poszy.
> Cheers mate
> Brian


i had thought about getting rails parallel too when i was tryin to figure out the rail system. came up with using spreader cleats like they do with concrete forms


----------



## miller2b

George Hurchalla said:


> Heard people talk about it but had been satisfied enough with the curved lower guide on my Granberg mill that keeps me from hanging up. Still does periodically though on the irregular wood I mill, so might be worth me giving it a shot. Judging by Granberg's G988 (which I'm not sure they make anymore) all you do is drill some holes further outboard in the lower guide clamp, get some old rollerblade urethane wheels and bearings and attach them to some 2.5-3" long 8mm bolts. Would use 8mm nylon locknuts, one to tighten the bolt to the clamp, and then sandwich the wheel between that and a locknut below it. https://granberg.com/product/g988-10-roller-bracket/


id thought of using closet door rollers on my rails and mill.


----------



## TrekJeff

7 Pages in. 
What gauge bar/chain for maple.
Saw is MS660 w 36” Mill


----------



## George Hurchalla

TrekJeff said:


> 7 Pages in.
> What gauge bar/chain for maple.
> Saw is MS660 w 36” Mill


I've always used standard 3/8" pitch .063" gauge on my 32-42" bars for my Stihl in that size range. Milling much harder woods than maple. I did screw up and put .050 gauge on my .063 bar for awhile and couldn't understand why the thing kept trying to go off at a cockeyed angle while milling.


----------



## Wetcoast

George Hurchalla said:


> I've always used standard 3/8" pitch .063" gauge on my 32-42" bars for my Stihl in that size range. Milling much harder woods than maple. I did screw up and put .050 gauge on my .063 bar for awhile and couldn't understand why the thing kept trying to go off at a cockeyed angle while milling.


Ah! Good to know what happens when you put a .050 chain on a .063 bar. I almost did this yesterday when prepping for milling that I did today. I briefly contemplated running it once I noticed but decided against it fairly quick, glad I did now that I have read your post . I guess I have another ripping chain for my small bar now .


----------



## Wetcoast

A question for the wise on here. Thinking of converting a ripping chain into a cross cut, is there any detail other than tooth angle to consider here?? I have one too many ripping chains and need a cross cut....and what about simply cross cutting with ripping chain??


----------



## miller2b

Wetcoast said:


> A question for the wise on here. Thinking of converting a ripping chain into a cross cut, is there any detail other than tooth angle to consider here?? I have one too many ripping chains and need a cross cut....and what about simply cross cutting with ripping chain??


Works just slow not an aggressive cut. Can always slowly take it out to a 25-30° top plate. Take it all at once and it eats up alot of material.


----------



## miller2b

Alot of guys here would say don't but if you aren't using professionally get a farmertec clone. I have a 660 for a few months no issues. Went through a dealer so didn't have to wait. The 660 clone is a beast of a saw.


----------



## BobL

Wetcoast said:


> A question for the wise on here. Thinking of converting a ripping chain into a cross cut, is there any detail other than tooth angle to consider here?? I have one too many ripping chains and need a cross cut....and what about simply cross cutting with ripping chain??



I have about 25 chains and don't think there's a single cross cutter amongst them.
If I was doing a lot of cross cutting or felling I would keep a couple for that purpose as they're less likely to bind in the cut.


----------



## Marine5068

BobL said:


> I have about 25 chains and don't think there's a single cross cutter amongst them.
> If I was doing a lot of cross cutting or felling I would keep a couple for that purpose as they're less likely to bind in the cut.


Hey Bob,
Nice to see you are feeling better and up and about.
We certainly all missed you and your milling wisdom.
I'm a real rookie at it and am ready to mill my largest log to date.
It's Spring time here in Ontario, Canada and I have a 28" Northern Red Oak I felled last season that I'm ready to mill.
I have the mill, saw and chains.
Now to figure out how to lift and block one end to make it easier for me.
I'll post some pics of what I come up with.


----------



## BobL

Marine5068 said:


> Hey Bob,
> Nice to see you are feeling better and up and about.
> We certainly all missed you and your milling wisdom.
> I'm a real rookie at it and am ready to mill my largest log to date.
> It's Spring time here in Ontario, Canada and I have a 28" Northern Red Oak I felled last season that I'm ready to mill.
> I have the mill, saw and chains.
> Now to figure out how to lift and block one end to make it easier for me.
> I'll post some pics of what I come up with.


I Look forward to the pics.

The last few days I have been working on getting my mate the tree lopper's band saw mill up and running.
It was last used about 2 years so it needs significant TLC as it's located outside covered by a HD tarpaulin, but that has not stopped it getting rusty and beaten up..
Lots of little things like the fuel lines and seals had perished and needed replacing as did the battery.
Once I fixed those thing the engine fired after about 5 attempts and is now running quite well.
The blades are also all rusty and I was set to derust them but my mate forked out for a couple of new ones to get us started

The worst thing that has happened is some one has run into the mill and apart from a couple of cosmetic dents had pushed the mill frame slightly off its concrete pad. We used the tree loppers HIab to move it back on but now the whole mill needs to be re-leveled and all the settings adjusted to get it parallel to the tracks etc. Someone has also dropped a log onto the track frame and bent it.
I've spent 3 days sorting all this out. I have a bunch of logs to mill for the tree lopper and various customers et.
One of the logs looks like it will be interesting - I'll post some pics when I have something to show.


----------



## C S Qualls

BobL said:


> It depends how crafty you are.
> 
> I got this log off the ground.
> View attachment 325834
> 
> 
> With this.
> View attachment 325835
> 
> View attachment 325836
> 
> Full thread here.
> 
> The hi-lift jack lifts 7500 lbs and I picked a used one for US$30 and modifying it took a couple of hours. Admittedly It's not something I like carrying more than about 100 yards but otherwise it's well worth the effort.


Would 4 foot working height (start) 24 inch diameter log, be ideal.


----------



## BobL

C S Qualls said:


> Would 4 foot working height (start) 24 inch diameter log, be ideal.


Ideal is what is comfortable for you - give it a try and work it up and down from there.


----------



## C S Qualls

BobL said:


> Ideal is what is comfortable for you - give it a try and work it up and down from there.


Will do, just did my first CSM and finishing on my knees , learning curve !


----------



## EastTexas

BobL said:


> Guys, seems like there are a continual trickle of newbies posting their milling setups and it's great to see the addiction continues! Most of these folks seem to be milling small logs on their knees on the ground when there is no need for it. Yes I do occasionally mill (big ones) on the ground but I'm wondering whether a sticky on milling positions would help these folks, that way we wouldn't sound like broken records?


Yes, and YES! I'm new to this site. I've been milling up in Michigan for +/- 30 years. Now, I'm in East Texas with tons of Eastern Red Cedar. I have two 15' logs 38" at big end and 34" then the other log is 34" and 32". Both are elevated 6" off the ground and I'm planning on using an Alaska portable chain saw mill to make some serious planks for a couple large poker tables/dinner tables at the ranch. I'm completely addicted...
That being said, "any", and I really mean ANY advice and input would be much appreciated. I've never used this set-up before.
1). Prepping the wood.
2). Finding the right chain for my new 36" Husqvarna..
3). Setting up a leveling system (if needed at all).
4). Curing the wood, sanding, etc. 
5). Expected time-line for this project so I don't foolishly rush the process...
I created a post about this a few weeks ago.
Thank you.


----------



## Tarki0

BobL said:


> My tips for Alaskan style milling
> 1) Clean the log of as much grit and bark as you can and clear sufficient working space around the log.
> 
> 2) if at all possible, get the log up off the ground onto gluts or sawhorses so you are milling in as standing a position as possible. You should not have to bend over significantly or mill on your knees.
> 
> 3) place the log on a slope so that you are milling downhill and gravity aids the cutting process
> 
> 4) start with a freshly sharpened chain with rakers set correctly and don't let the chain go blunt. Stop and sharpen or change chains often.
> 
> 5) add extra handles to the mill or wrap handle on the saw so your arms are not spread apart. This allows you to comfortably lean on the mill with straighten arms. The more handles you have, The more variations in arm and standing position you can use which helps relieve fatigue. Add anti vibe grips to handles.
> 
> 6) If you are milling over about 24" in width consider adding an auxiliary oiler to the outboard end of the bar to protect the bar and chain.
> 
> 7) add rollers or wheels to the inboard side of the mill that makes contact with the log so the mill does not constantly jam up against the side of the log
> 
> 8) use log rails that are longer than the log so that the mill can perch on the end of the log while the saw is being started
> 
> 9) on really hard wood, if the log is partially dry, remove the first 6" or so of the starting end of the log, so you are not cutting into dead dry wood where you lose 90% of the chain sharpness.
> 
> 10) when finishing a cut, before stopping the engine let it idle for 30 seconds or so, so it can cool down a bit .
> 
> 11) orient the milling so the saw is downwind of the operator to reduce exposure to exhaust and sawdust.
> 
> 12) stop to admire and chimp the wood grain often - remember you will never see it looking so vivid and natural again, EVER!
> 
> 
> Things to watch out for
> a) the CS bar and the CS milling rails not being parallel to each other across the mill. This will cause the mill to rise or more likely dive making it harder and harder to cut. This can be cause by poor construction or dropping or damaging a mill.
> 
> b) loose nuts/bolts/bits on the saw and mill. If they fall they are dangerous if they hit the chain and you may never see them again amongst the piles of sawdust generated by milling. Check all fasteners and use Loctite where appropriate.
> 
> c) loose mill/bar bolts. If you forget, the chain could be toast in fractions of a second.
> 
> d) PPE. High quality hearing protection is even more essential than regular sawing because of the prolonged exposure. Consider using 30dB+ muffs.
> 
> e) pushing too hard. If you have to push hard, something is not right usually its just 4) especially the rakers not set properly but occasionally its a)
> 
> That will do for now!
> 
> Cheers



Thanks. I just had the problem of a diving CSM then a rising CSM. It was making me crazy. Appreciate the tip… I could have sworn I checked the guide to bar distance on both ends…. famous last words. More after I check the bar to guide distance (again).


----------



## Brad Pellerin

Hello everyone my name is Brad. I am new to milling but if I knew Then what I know now, I would have bought a bigger Mill. I cheaped out and bought a 36" chinese mill. I am already estimating some jobs for clients and turning away work (mostly from being booked solid) and because my Mill is just too small. My old 298xp kinda died and I had to upgrade to a 390xp. I am pricing out a bigger Panther Mill. Basically my advice is, Find out what you want the Mill for. Is it just for your own lumber projects? Do you want to go into business? Then figure out what Mill you may need. spend the money on the better equipment so its reliable as well and you don't need to upgrade as I will shortly after starting. Thanks and happy Milling


----------



## SeMoTony

Brad Pellerin said:


> Hello everyone my name is Brad. I am new to milling but if I knew Then what I know now, I would have bought a bigger Mill. I cheaped out and bought a 36" chinese mill. I am already estimating some jobs for clients and turning away work (mostly from being booked solid) and because my Mill is just too small. My old 298xp kinda died and I had to upgrade to a 390xp. I am pricing out a bigger Panther Mill. Basically my advice is, Find out what you want the Mill for. Is it just for your own lumber projects? Do you want to go into business? Then figure out what Mill you may need. spend the money on the better equipment so its reliable as well and you don't need to upgrade as I will shortly after starting. Thanks and happy MillingView attachment 928568


I'm inexpensively (as possible) involved, but power heads and bars lead the way about 3 years ago for example

Ms460 with 42" bar on maple log

60" cannon bar on 661 ported. The rails can be swapped out for right distance for bar.. An extra bit can be gained by drilling the center of the sprocket to allow a 1/4" bolt to attach into d&t hole in square or round aluminum (just my preference) bar at the far end. In use on 60" bar.
I have a 72" forester bar in case. The incase? A 5 1/2-6foot diameter stump 100miles away or so. Had the bar more than a year before the top was blown off this tree leaving about 20 feet of log to be dropped. Haven't seen the specimen or a pic just my bud's view of it.
Since I'm in my 70th year now I may need to motivate before it gets 2 excessive for me lol


----------



## chunky

I just gave in and bought me a MS070 clone to do just a little milling around the house. Ive read in other threads about running rich and different types of "good" bar oil but cant seem to find those of late. I`m 5 pages into this thread and haven`t run across any on those subjects. Ive mixed up some 40:1 to run a few tanks through the saw, while I`m waiting on my ripping chains to get here before i start any milling.
Can someone shine a light on a good milling mixture and a good bar oil before i get started as well?


----------



## J D

Rich & oily isn't a bad idea for a new saw. Ideally put a few hours on it before you bolt the mill to it too.
I mill with 32:1 (quality synthetic) mix & tuned a bit rich (300-500 RPM below max WOT).
The best bar oil is lots of bar oil... A sticky bar oil will help it hang around & get where it needs to. If your milling more than 36" you might want to consider an aux oiler.


----------



## chunky

J D said:


> Rich & oily isn't a bad idea for a new saw. Ideally put a few hours on it before you bolt the mill to it too.
> I mill with 32:1 (quality synthetic) mix & tuned a bit rich (300-500 RPM below max WOT).
> The best bar oil is lots of bar oil... A sticky bar oil will help it hang around & get where it needs to. If your milling more than 36" you might want to consider an aux oiler.



I`m on the second tanks of gas and was planning on trying to use a 3rd before doing any milling. I`ve got a 36" bar on it but for the milling it`ll be a 30" bar with only a 24" mill. Yesterday I noticed the auto oiler wasn`t working and i had to manually pump oil so I will have a aux oiler attached so I don`t have to remember to manually oil as I`m milling.
You mentioned "tuned rich"...this saw idles high enough for the chain to run pretty fast without exceleration. Is that normal for these big saws?


----------



## J D

chunky said:


> Yesterday I noticed the auto oiler wasn`t working and i had to manually pump oil so I will have a aux oiler attached so I don`t have to remember to manually oil as I`m milling.


I'd suggest sorting the saws oiler out before you worry about an aux oiler... That's one of the things a lot of people choose to replace with the OEM part


chunky said:


> this saw idles high enough for the chain to run pretty fast without exceleration. Is that normal for these big saws?


That's not normal for any saw & not safe... you need to properly tune the saw! Asides from the high idle, if it's running lean you'll burn it up in short order


----------



## SeMoTony

chunky said:


> I`m on the second tanks of gas and was planning on trying to use a 3rd before doing any milling. I`ve got a 36" bar on it but for the milling it`ll be a 30" bar with only a 24" mill. Yesterday I noticed the auto oiler wasn`t working and i had to manually pump oil so I will have a aux oiler attached so I don`t have to remember to manually oil as I`m milling.
> You mentioned "tuned rich"...this saw idles high enough for the chain to run pretty fast without exceleration. Is that normal for these big saws?



As ^^^^^ tune the idle then tune for high end. Lean is an amount of gas in the mix. Thus 32:1 is a leaner mix than 40:1 or50:1 and requires more mix to stay away from a hot/lean mix. Admittedly it's marginal but, when milling, it has more importance than cross cutting. Continously running for several minutes per slab adds up way quicker than cutting across and moving to next cut while PH idles and cools a bit
G'day gents


----------



## J D

SeMoTony said:


> Lean is an amount of gas in the mix. Thus 32:1 is a leaner mix than 40:1 or50:1 and requires more mix to stay away from a hot/lean mix.


While you are correct, I think referring to a heavier oil mix as a leaner petrol mix just confuses things for some people.
What's important is to run an appropriate fuel : oil mix & tune the saw for the particular oil & mix ratio you are using (yes, oil variant can make a difference too).
I also think we are getting off topic & @chunky should probably start a new thread for further discussion


----------



## SeMoTony

J D said:


> While you are correct, I think referring to a heavier oil mix as a leaner petrol mix just confuses things for some people.
> What's important is to run an appropriate fuel : oil mix & tune the saw for the particular oil & mix ratio you are using (yes, oil variant can make a difference too).
> I also think we are getting off topic & @chunky should probably start a new thread for further discussion


Facts are not confusing to people who are paying attention. A correct tune of carb @32:1 will be lean enough if switched to 50:1 at same carb setting to overheat rings when milling. Experience, sounds like PH really pulling for a while )<: then compression starts going away.
Rich or lean refer to quantity fuel that burns for power. Over or below ideal amount for complete burn for power.. PERIOD


----------



## J D

SeMoTony said:


> Facts are not confusing to people who are paying attention. A correct tune of carb @32:1 will be lean enough if switched to 50:1 at same carb setting to overheat rings when milling. Experience, sounds like PH really pulling for a while )<: then compression starts going away.
> Rich or lean refer to quantity fuel that burns for power. Over or below ideal amount for complete burn for power.. PERIOD


I'm fairly confident I'm paying attention, & also that you just proved my point....
A correctly tuned carb @32:1 will be *RICH* if switched to 50:1 at same carb setting.
To put it another way, increasing the ratio of oil in a fuel oil mix reduces the proportion of fuel in that mix. If the carb is not adjusted to compensate then it will meter out the same amount of mix but there will be less fuel in that mix, causing the engine to run lean.
Oil richness & fuel richness are different but related things. Changing oil richness by altering your mix will inversely affect fuel richness, fuel richness is corrected by carb adjustment.
There are plenty of discussions covering this both here on AS & elsewhere.


----------



## SeMoTony

J D said:


> I'm fairly confident I'm paying attention, & also that you just proved my point....
> A correctly tuned carb @32:1 will be *RICH* if switched to 50:1 at same carb setting.
> To put it another way, increasing the ratio of oil in a fuel oil mix reduces the proportion of fuel in that mix. If the carb is not adjusted to compensate then it will meter out the same amount of mix but there will be less fuel in that mix, causing the engine to run lean.
> Oil richness & fuel richness are different but related things. Changing oil richness by altering your mix will inversely affect fuel richness, fuel richness is corrected by carb adjustment.
> There are plenty of discussions covering this both here on AS & elsewhere.


Yes I stated it backwards, thanks for that correction. "Oil richness " is not correct position. Rich or lean refers ONLY to fuel, lean leaves unused oxygen to eat away ,by burning ,metal in combustion chamber. Rich has excess fuel that cuts back on power. There is an ideal weight ratio of air to fuel.. lean means that ratio is less weight of fuel,, rich means there is more fuel than the ideal.. Glad to hear your confusion of what Rich and lean means. Makes it easier to say " it ain't that way"
This understanding for me goes back into 60's with carcraft and other performance car mags. It is also why a ported head has rough surface on intake an polished on exhaust. Polished intake chills and fuel will condense on wall and lead to varying levels of fuel to air ratio as it condenses to then have a portion go back into air flo richening and leaning. Rough intake surface is turbulent keeping the fluid in mix with the air.


----------



## chunky

J D said:


> While you are correct, I think referring to a heavier oil mix as a leaner petrol mix just confuses things for some people.
> What's important is to run an appropriate fuel : oil mix & tune the saw for the particular oil & mix ratio you are using (yes, oil variant can make a difference too).
> I also think we are getting off topic & @chunky should probably start a new thread for further discussion



Reading this thread and a lot of other threads, I`ve seen a lot of NEWBIES like myself that has little/no knowledge of this tuning discussion. The title of this thread is why I came here instead of starting a new one but it`s no problem to move the discussion if needed.


----------



## SeMoTony

chunky said:


> Reading this thread and a lot of other threads, I`ve seen a lot of NEWBIES like myself that has little/no knowledge of this tuning discussion. The title of this thread is why I came here instead of starting a new one but it`s no problem to move the discussion if needed.


On pre EPA saws there is a beginning point. On the Stihl saws I have it was idle one turn out on idle fuel same On throttle/butterfly open. Once the idle is correct then the Wide Open Throttle is addressed when saw is warmed up.
When the chain moves at idle the butterfly may be too open, backing the screw out for that out will bring things closer to order.
The idle mix screw can be either side of just right. Turning that screw in will lean the air fuel mix, counter clockwise will richen the fuel (usually good) to bring it all in. The saw idling slow enough to not engage the clutch, but be able to come up to speed as the throttle is opened. If the, warmed up engine, isn't fairly smooth in coming up to speed the high end screw will need adjustment. Particularly when it ends up running hard and fast until a cut is started and the engine falls on its face. Indicates too little fuel, lean. Open up the high end fuel screw CCW on my Stihl saws til there is power to cut. Open up about 1/8th turn atta time til the cutting slows down a bit. At that point the air/fuel mix is just rich, which has the PH a bit cooler. Opening up the muffler (a search topic will get you there) cools the PH by letting the heat out faster.
For actual videos of the sounds of correctly tuned saws placing "tuning a saw" in the search will make available more than enough info to start you and your saw in good stead.
Mill safely


----------



## Mad Professor

You guys talk about the oiler and bar oil a lot, what is often neglected is heat.

A water drip on the bar will cool the bar/chain and allow the oiler/oil to do it's job better.


----------



## chunky

SeMoTony said:


> On pre EPA saws there is a beginning point. On the Stihl saws I have it was idle one turn out on idle fuel same On throttle/butterfly open. Once the idle is correct then the Wide Open Throttle is addressed when saw is warmed up.
> When the chain moves at idle the butterfly may be too open, backing the screw out for that out will bring things closer to order.
> The idle mix screw can be either side of just right. Turning that screw in will lean the air fuel mix, counter clockwise will richen the fuel (usually good) to bring it all in. The saw idling slow enough to not engage the clutch, but be able to come up to speed as the throttle is opened. If the, warmed up engine, isn't fairly smooth in coming up to speed the high end screw will need adjustment. Particularly when it ends up running hard and fast until a cut is started and the engine falls on its face. Indicates too little fuel, lean. Open up the high end fuel screw CCW on my Stihl saws til there is power to cut. Open up about 1/8th turn atta time til the cutting slows down a bit. At that point the air/fuel mix is just rich, which has the PH a bit cooler. Opening up the muffler (a search topic will get you there) cools the PH by letting the heat out faster.
> For actual videos of the sounds of correctly tuned saws placing "tuning a saw" in the search will make available more than enough info to start you and your saw in good stead.
> Mill safely


Thanks SeMo, that helps alot!


----------



## chunky

J D said:


> I'd suggest sorting the saws oiler out before you worry about an aux oiler... That's one of the things a lot of people choose to replace with the OEM part
> 
> That's not normal for any saw & not safe... you need to properly tune the saw! Asides from the high idle, if it's running lean you'll burn it up in short order.


Thanks JD, the oiler just needed to be turned up a bit. Now I`m getting to much oil as its running off the bar. I`ll get that lined out when I get back to the cutting.


----------



## 820wards

Hi BobL,
When I was younger I to milled logs on my knees. As I got older/wiser I made or used whatever I could to get the logs off the ground. My back liked me for doing that. I have’t milled much in the past few years. I’ve been restoring/racing vintage road race racecars. Besides, I have a large supply of slabs I’ve milled in the past to still use. Take care Mr. BobL.
820WARDS
jerry-


----------



## Hunt'n'photos

I have been having lots of fun with a variety of chainsaw mills over the years, but I finally broke down and ordered a Woodland Mills HM126. Should be here in a few weeks and I really cant wait. All those spruce trees you see in the background of the first picture are dead beetle kill...


----------



## Zigy

hazard said:


> I did this as an example of how I set up the rig. I haven't actually milled a log in 3 yrs. No point when I have 3000bf of oak, cherry and walnut laying around. My wife hates it when I bring more home.
> 
> Once the rig is setup I set the mill at 5 1/2" and mill away. This is quick and easy. The 2x4's I use are 8' so I cut the log at 7' so I have 6" of overhang. As a woodworker to me an 8' log is meaningless. I almost prefer a 6' log. A 6'x20"x1.25" wet board weighs is starting to get heavy for me.
> 
> The only way to raise a log to any decent height is with a bobcat or tractor or a group of really strong men. Otherwise you are SOL. Most of the logs I mill have been in the woods so a tractor isn't excessable.
> 
> Chris


Hi I use my quad's winch to pull/roll the log up on to my mill


----------



## BobL

> hazard said:
> The only way to raise a log to any decent height is with a bobcat or tractor or a group of really strong men. Otherwise you are SOL. Most of the logs I mill have been in the woods so a tractor isn't excessable.


----------



## Westwood

I'll be ordering a Granberg setup once I know which size I need.

I've got a 372xp with a 24" bar. Going to order a Granberg 30" mill. Is it worth the ~$150 to up to a 28" bar?


----------



## J D

Westwood said:


> I'll be ordering a Granberg setup once I know which size I need.
> 
> I've got a 372xp with a 24" bar. Going to order a Granberg 30" mill. Is it worth the ~$150 to up to a 28" bar?


At least 6" of your bar is going to be lost mounting the mill frame so if you want to cut any more than about 17" you'll need a longer bar... That being the case I'd suggest skip or Granberg chain for your 372xp & possibly an aux oiler too


----------



## Westwood

J D said:


> At least 6" of your bar is going to be lost mounting the mill frame so if you want to cut any more than about 17" you'll need a longer bar... That being the case I'd suggest skip or Granberg chain for your 372xp & possibly an aux oiler too


Wow, I didn't think I'd be losing 6". huh.

The larger trees I have are 20" or so. Looks like I'll have to go with a 28" bar then.

And when you say you'd suggest skip, you mean not bother?

And as for the auxiliary oiler, I was looking to do these in 10' lengths or so. The oiler necessary for something that short?


----------



## chunky

Westwood said:


> Wow, I didn't think I'd be losing 6". huh.
> 
> The larger trees I have are 20" or so. Looks like I'll have to go with a 28" bar then.
> 
> And when you say you'd suggest skip, you mean not bother?
> 
> And as for the auxiliary oiler, I was looking to do these in 10' lengths or so. The oiler necessary for something that short?


You definitely lose alot. I run a 36" bar so I started with a 24" mill. Due to logs bigger than I expected it didn't take me long to upsize to a 36" mill.
With that and removing my spikes puts my biggest cut at about 29.5"
I'm new here myself but from what I've read I believe you'll be ok without the aux oiler but it won't hurt nothing. Use a cheap pvc settup an you'll only be in it for a few bucks.






Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk


----------



## BobL

A tall/thin container can provide more flow that a short/squat container for an Aux oil tanks bu the advantage of short tanks is the flow doesn't change all that much as the height of oil changes.
I've used 4" PVC pipe and a couple of end caps but when I caught up with my BIL ally welder handy he knock this one up for me.
The clear PVC U-tube shows the level of the oil inside the tank.


----------



## HumBurner

The power of the peavey (and a lot of grunting!)




Original placement:




Everyone needs a peavey!


----------



## windblown

Westwood said:


> Wow, I didn't think I'd be losing 6". huh.
> 
> The larger trees I have are 20" or so. Looks like I'll have to go with a 28" bar then.
> 
> And when you say you'd suggest skip, you mean not bother?
> 
> And as for the auxiliary oiler, I was looking to do these in 10' lengths or so. The oiler necessary for something that short?


Yeah... I'm running a 24" bar and have only 18.5" width availible to cut with. I only mill a little and it's ok but in bigger stuff like this oak I freehand cut the sides just enough to squeak by. Extra steps that I could avoid with a bigger set up but for the little bit I do it works out ok.


----------



## George Hurchalla

windblown said:


> Yeah... I'm running a 24" bar and have only 18.5" width availible to cut with. I only mill a little and it's ok but in bigger stuff like this oak I freehand cut the sides just enough to squeak by. Extra steps that I could avoid with a bigger set up but for the little bit I do it works out ok.



People get too hung up on keeping everything live edge and/or oversizing their rig so they can do crotches and flares in the wood. Unless you're doing massive single slab pieces for tables you want to be live edge, there's often no need to keep the slabs live edged. Have seen too many people running a foot or two of extra bar through a cut just so they have enough bar for some wide point. Requires extra saw power, way more teeth to sharpen, etc. Best is to keep it simple like you're doing. A bonus advantage to trimming the sides is you don't have as much dirty bark to saw through, which often is half of what dulls your chain.


----------



## endred

Hi!
A smal question from a norwegian beginner! How do you cut logs with a skewed center to get the best boards? I have read that the best is to have the pit in one board.. That is not easy with a curved log..

The Granberg instructions says just measure the same height from the pit in the rear and in the front and cut parallell to that, but that dosn`t work on a log thats not straight..

When I lay the ladder level above the log (level side to side and front and back), the measurements from center pit to ladder at the bottom end and top of the log do not match.

Do you skip having the ladder level rear to front and rather just aim the cut at the same height from the center pit in the back and in the front of the log while making sure that the ladder is level from side to side? And hoping most of the pit goes in the midle board?

ps. Sorry for the bad english (3.rd grade english and google transelate)


----------



## BobL

By "pit" I assume you means teh centre of the log or "pith"
By skewed centre I assume you means curved log?
If so this is what I do.
If the curve on the top of the log is not too much I use the chainsaw to cut some of the curve away so the ladder can lay sort of flat - that's represented in the bottom drawing below 
If its a long curve the I will pack each end with blocks of woods get the ladder to have the same distance between the top of the ladder and centre of the log. See the top drawing.




If you have a lot of curved logs then a supporting frame that holds each end of the ladder steady like this might be worth investing in.
Here you can see I have cut a flat to remove part of teh curve but the curve was so extreme I added a support frame..
The verticals are C-channel so yje cross support piece can be slid up and down and locked in place.


----------



## endred

BobL said:


> By "pit" I assume you means teh centre of the log or "pith"
> By skewed centre I assume you means curved log?


Yes and yes
Thanks for reply and drawings!
Understand that one should aim to get the pith in one board, but what is the best solution when that is not possible? Is it then just as easy to cut the length of the log to get a smaller curve? Or am i overthinking the problem with a curved log (Which can also be quite likely).


----------



## BobL

endred said:


> Yes and yes
> Thanks for reply and drawings!
> Understand that one should aim to get the pith in one board, but what is the best solution when that is not possible? Is it then just as easy to cut the length of the log to get a smaller curve? Or am i overthinking the problem with a curved log (Which can also be quite likely).


I don't usually worry about the pith because the pith in most young Aussie logs is not that much of a problem.
If I get problematic pith in a board I tend to just cut it out.


----------



## endred

chopped off a little of the high spot at the base of the log. Worked like a charm!


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> *A range of setups*
> 
> Basic setup - sorry if I keep posting this one but it's the clearest picture I have.
> 
> Unistrut log rails
> View attachment 325837
> 
> 
> Another basic setup using a ladder as log rails.
> View attachment 325838
> 
> 
> Boomerang shaped log
> View attachment 325839
> 
> View attachment 325840
> 
> 
> Another tricky to start log
> View attachment 325841
> 
> 
> Small mill with Mac 10-10
> View attachment 325842
> 
> 
> Serious sloped milling - mill went down by itself!
> View attachment 325843
> 
> 
> 16ft cedar
> View attachment 325844
> 
> 
> Enough?


When Using the uni strut instead of lapping strut to lengthen use a piece of 40 schedule 1" iron pipe shoved in the strut, you will be amazed how perfect it fits. A foot piece works better than a 4 inch piece.


----------



## TRTermite

Peculiar you posted this


BobL said:


> Then come things like cutting your hands while filing, bug bites, splinters, chain breaking, kick back, shark attack and UFO deportation.


Pretty sure this happened to me. Created sever depression after the fact. I realized I was a misfit reject. But the good part is they sent me back (I guess). Sorry about the banter but haddta post it
I can't believe I have not read this "STUFF" before...Thanks everyone


----------



## BobL

TRTermite said:


> When Using the uni strut instead of lapping strut to lengthen use a piece of 40 schedule 1" iron pipe shoved in the strut, you will be amazed how perfect it fits. A foot piece works better than a 4 inch piece.


Good idea. One issue I can forsee is it then can be too long on some logs. My two Unistruts are cut into 2 x 10' lengths. If I cut a 12' log and I join the pieces using 1" pipe the 20' will result in a 4' over hang on each end.


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> Good idea. One issue I can forsee is it then can be too long on some logs. My two Unistruts are cut into 2 x 10' lengths. If I cut a 12' log and I join the pieces using 1" pipe the 20' will result in a 4' over hang on each end.


I have 8' and 12' pieces ,, bought for scrap/salvage in the 90s' several tons but it is slowly disappearing.
Fits fairly nice inside of 11 ga. 2" square tube.


----------



## BobL

TRTermite said:


> I have 8' and 12' pieces ,, bought for scrap/salvage in the 90s' several tons but it is slowly disappearing.
> Fits fairly nice inside of 11 ga. 2" square tube.


Joining on the outside wouldn't work for me. 

12'/8' is how I should have cut mine or maybe something like that. I cut quite a few logs that are ~8' long and 10' isn't quite long enough.

I bought mine at the height of the mining boom in 2007 when a 20' length cost US$75. There were some available at a salvage yard but they were too bent for my liking.
About 5 years later one of the tree jockeys ran over my rails with a truck and bent 2 of the half length beyond repair and had to go but another length which cost about US$90.
If you think that was expensive then today the same thing here costs US$121 per 20' length.


----------



## TRTermite

George Hurchalla said:


> After having replaced or sharpened nearly every cutting edge in my wood shop in the past week, I'm reminded more than ever how much more I need to keep on top of my sharpening. Everything is fairly effortless with sharp edges. Everything is a struggle without them. BobL, I know you've stressed how easy it is to dull edges in a heartbeat in dirty wood and steps to avoid it, but it really sunk in during my last round of mesquite milling. With all my types of wood cutting/planing, I've had a bad habit of going by "amount of use" to gauge when it's time to sharpen an edge, rather than admit that the edge needs sharpening if the machine is struggling to make a good cut, even if I just sharpened it yesterday. Mesquite has such dirty thick bark that you're guaranteed to dull chains quickly unless you debark it, as much of a pain in the ass as it can be to do so. Also, mesquite tends to contain a lot of dead spots of rotten wood that will dull the chain quickly and you never know where you'll find them. I checked out all the opinions on winches out of curiosity, which would certainly come in handy when I'm pushing hard with a dull chain, but even in a really hard wood like mesquite, I've found with freshly sharpened chain on my 880, it just wants to eat it up and I only lightly guide it, I don't have to push it. That's kind of a standard I think I've learned for when to sharpen. If I'm having to push, sharpen the chain.
> I was also reading this whole thread and others for thoughts on rails/ladders on every cut or just the first cut. I've gone back and forth, but have much preferred the results using them on every cut. When I don't use rails, I struggle solo with my 880 at keeping the mill level as I first initiate the cut and end up with unevenness in the first six inches, and tend to get the same at the other end finishing the cut.
> I had some terrible washboarding issues when my son helped me one day who has no familiarity with milling, and he tried to attribute it to the chain loosening up. I've almost never had washboarding issues on my own. I was thinking it mostly had to do with him pushing too hard on his side - every time I've ever had a novice help me I've had to tell them to stop pushing so much - and also him cantilevering his push by holding the vertical post up high and pushing. But even more so, I think it was him knocking in wedges behind the cut way too far and lifting the wood too much so that it was tilting the mill from the back end and always pushing it to dig in. I had not even been putting wedges in behind me with mesquite most of the time because it didn't really sag and close up at all. When I went back to milling on my own, I had smooth results again. I haven't really seen it warned about or mentioned that in milling you only put in wedges to keep the cut open to the width of the cut. Some people treat wedges like they do when felling and drive them in and open the cut way too much and tilt the angle of attack of the mill.
> What should be a bit of a game changer for keeping myself working more steadily is that I got my two old 87cc Stihls back from my place in Mexico, only one of which I ever expected to work. But I did the ignition fix on the 045 successfully and now I have three big saws to choose from, and can start milling with 3/8" chain some on smaller hardwoods. I remember you saying, BobL, that you didn't see much of a difference between a 660 with 3/8 and 880 w/ .404 in narrower hardwoods, but you also mentioned my 045 and 056 Supers were considerably lower revs than the 660, if only marginally less powerful, so I won't get the higher chain speed benefit so much from them that I would from the 660. Even still, it will be interesting to do some direct comparisons of the two setups.


Does the 660 run an 8T rim. That is where the 056 Magnum II catches up on chain speed on some other newer saws.


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> Joining on the outside wouldn't work for me.
> 
> 12'/8' is how I should have cut mine or maybe something like that. I cut quite a few logs that are ~8' long and 10' isn't quite long enough.
> 
> I bought mine at the height of the mining boom in 2007 when a 20' length cost US$75. There were some available at a salvage yard but they were too bent for my liking.
> About 5 years later one of the tree jockeys ran over my rails with a truck and bent 2 of the half length beyond repair and had to go but another length which cost about US$90.
> If you think that was expensive then today the same thing here costs US$121 per 20' length.


I guess I am fortunate to be a junk packrat. Most of what I paid in those days was around 30 to 50 $ a ton and the Kansas City junkers were happy to get double the money salvage yards were paying


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> Joining on the outside wouldn't work for me.
> 
> 12'/8' is how I should have cut mine or maybe something like that. I cut quite a few logs that are ~8' long and 10' isn't quite long enough.
> 
> I bought mine at the height of the mining boom in 2007 when a 20' length cost US$75. There were some available at a salvage yard but they were too bent for my liking.
> About 5 years later one of the tree jockeys ran over my rails with a truck and bent 2 of the half length beyond repair and had to go but another length which cost about US$90.
> If you think that was expensive then today the same thing here costs US$121 per 20' length.


I wasn't suggesting you join on the outside ,, merely bringing the way it fits to attention.


----------



## TRTermite

I have read Through these 14 pages (More than once) and don't remember any discussion on using safety chain. I did see that @BobL starts out with crosscut and methodically converts?files them to 10 deg. top plate angle. My thought is I have some full chisel full comp 3/8" - .063 oregon LP and husqvarna H45 chain I don't care for when bore cutting (Grade) logs. These have the slanting ramp preceding the raker/drag , and sides alongside of the raker/drag as it rolls off of the bar nose. short of trial by fire I was hoping for a bit of advice from some with experience. I should read through some other threads but I am getting lazee after the 14 page read I have some Carlton in the mail and will use it to start off with. I have a few modifications on your boomerang log to post when I can get some Patience. (Getting Restless) I like this thread....


----------



## BobL

TRTermite said:


> I have read Through these 14 pages (More than once) and don't remember any discussion on using safety chain.


Safety chain is a chain primarily designed to reduce kickback but as kickback is not really an issue in a CSM there's no need for it. However I ended up with a roll of Lopro safety chain and have been using it on my 441 and small alskan. I through it might hamper sawdust ejection but provided the chains is well set up and sharpened, in the harder woods I cut it doesn't seem to slow it down at all.


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> Safety chain is a chain primarily designed to reduce kickback but as kickback is not really an issue in a CSM there's no need for it. However I ended up with a roll of Lopro safety chain and have been using it on my 441 and small alskan. I through it might hamper sawdust ejection but provided the chains is well set up and sharpened, in the harder woods I cut it doesn't seem to slow it down at all.


Thanks I was hoping you would say something like that
I will Try the 13/64 file in a 3/16" file guide/plate...Unless you suggest differently


----------



## J D

I made a jig up using a small grinder, a drill press & a vice in order make my own Granberg style chain... I initially used anti kickback chain for that & found the same setup to work very well for removing the safety bumpers


----------



## BobL

TRTermite said:


> Thanks I was hoping you would say something like that
> I will Try the 13/64 file in a 3/16" file guide/plate...Unless you suggest differently


Just bear in mind my 441 only has a 25" bar - for bars significantly longer that this sawdust ejection might be more problematic.


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> Just bear in mind my 441 only has a 25" bar - for bars significantly longer that this sawdust ejection might be more problematic.


I will be starting out with a 24" or 36" 3/8" .063 Ripping carlton. later I want to use the LP Oregon and H45 Husqvarna and try as you suggest to convert it to 10 deg..


----------



## TRTermite

Any one try the Holzforma 52" bars. I am curious/concerned with the durability and rigidity of them. I will b e using .063 3/8" chain


----------



## TRTermite

J D said:


> I made a jig up using a small grinder, a drill press & a vice in order make my own Granberg style chain... I initially used anti kickback chain for that & found the same setup to work very well for removing the safety bumpers


I know it isn't fair to ask for a picture 'Cuz I am not able to master my phone to computer and my sister says something is wrong with it so . I do like the concept you present.


----------



## J D

TRTermite said:


> I know it isn't fair to ask for a picture 'Cuz I am not able to master my phone to computer and my sister says something is wrong with it so . I do like the concept you present.








Setup to make Granberg style chain


Setup a grinder with a cut-off wheel in an old drill press to make my last ripping chain. Worked remarkably well so I thought I'd share...




www.arboristsite.com


----------



## StihlPotlicker

BobL said:


> *Railomatic's good stuff!*
> 
> I don't know what happened to Railomatic who was one of the most innovative CS mill designers to post on AS. He posted a lot of photos of his mills back in 2007/8 mainly linked to a photobucket account which has also disappeared but some of his posts did include photos posted direct to AS.
> 
> I thought I would repost some of his posts here including his photos here because they really deserve to be seen, especially by newbies and folks looking for interesting CS mill designs and you may also see where I got several ideas for my mills from. You will also see the outstanding quality of finish that he was able to fabricate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More in the next post


why aint i able to see the pics?


----------



## BobL

StihlPotlicker said:


> why aint i able to see the pics?


Pics were lost back in 2012 during a forum upgrade - something about image address mapping?
About 1000 of my pictures were lost but I've been given special permission to go back and reinsert many of them them (takes a long time finding sorting and inserting them in the right order)
The same thing happened to many other forums around the world. On an Aussie wood workers forums I lost over 2000 pictures. Have reinserted about 500 of those as well,


----------



## StihlPotlicker

BobL said:


> Pics were lost back in 2012 during a forum upgrade - something about image address mapping?
> About 1000 of my pictures were lost but I've been given special permission to go back and reinsert many of them them (takes a long time finding sorting and inserting them in the right order)
> The same thing happened to other forums around teh world. On an Aussie wood workers forums I lost over 2000 pictures. Have reinserted about 500 of those as well,


gotta love technology LOL


----------



## TRTermite

BobL said:


> Pics were lost back in 2012 during a forum upgrade - something about image address mapping?
> About 1000 of my pictures were lost but I've been given special permission to go back and reinsert many of them them (takes a long time finding sorting and inserting them in the right order)
> The same thing happened to other forums around teh world. On an Aussie wood workers forums I lost over 2000 pictures. Have reinserted about 500 of those as well,


Your efforts are APPRECIATED. THANK YOU


----------



## djg james

BobL said:


> Pics were lost back in 2012 during a forum upgrade - something about image address mapping?
> About 1000 of my pictures were lost but I've been given special permission to go back and reinsert many of them them (takes a long time finding sorting and inserting them in the right order)
> The same thing happened to other forums around teh world. On an Aussie wood workers forums I lost over 2000 pictures. Have reinserted about 500 of those as well,





Just curious why you milled this log? Looks like a lot of wind shake going on and that it would fall apart once milled?


----------



## BobL

djg james said:


> View attachment 985691
> 
> 
> Just curious why you milled this log? Looks like a lot of wind shake going on and that it would fall apart once milled?


Correct,
The log is a Marri ( Aussie blood wood) and useless for anything structural which is why old time millers didn't touch them and there are still many left especially on farms and ranches.


Not only shake but fist size pockets of blood red gum/resin as well


Despite these issues the timber has recently become fashionable even prized for use in furniture making.
From memory I only got about half a dozen what I would call decent slabs out of that log but was able to cut out the major cracks and gum pockets and got many smaller useful pieces from the rest - hard work.

Not all Marri is like this - younger/smaller trees can have solid wood in them some with real nice grain.



I used some of the wood from that log to make this wool drum carding machine for my wife.
I did all the stainless stee metal work as well.


----------



## djg james

BobL said:


> Correct,
> The log is a Marri ( Aussie blood wood) and useless for anything structural which is why old time millers didn't touch them and there are still many left especially on farms and ranches.
> View attachment 985759
> 
> Not only shake but fist size pockets of blood red gum/resin as well
> View attachment 985758
> 
> Despite these issues the timber has recently become fashionable even prized for use in furniture making.
> From memory I only got about half a dozen what I would call decent slabs out of that log but was able to cut out the major cracks and gum pockets and got many smaller useful pieces from the rest - hard work.
> 
> Not all Marri is like this - younger/smaller trees can have solid wood in them some with real nice grain.
> View attachment 985760
> 
> 
> I used some of the wood from that log to make this wool drum carding machine for my wife.
> I did all the stainless stee metal work as well.
> View attachment 985762


Beautiful wood. Why don't you just send me a couple slabs? I could use it  . You didn't make the drums, just the pulleys/shafts? Which is still amazing.


----------



## BobL

djg james said:


> Beautiful wood. Why don't you just send me a couple slabs? I could use it  . You didn't make the drums, just the pulleys/shafts? Which is still amazing.


The only wood./metal things I didn't fabricate on the carding machine was the short piece of all-thread SS rod used in the belt tensioner, and the fixings. All the other metal bits, pulleys, knobs, brackets, etc and all the wooden bits were done in my home shop. The wire carding cloth covering the drums was an expensive, purchase, ~US$100. A carding machine likes this costs between $500 and $700 but even the most expensive ones won't be as nice as this one. I have though about motorising it but so far my wife's says it works fine manually.

Here is a photo of the other side.



I really like doing the metal work especially if it involves brass or stainless steel, so I look for excuses to do mixed wood/metal projects. My latest is this craft/drawing bench for my grandson. It uses M8 pull thru bolts and shop made barrel nuts made out of 20mm stainless.


For the adjustable legs I was using conventional stainless nuts a bolts but the standard nuts looked ordinary so I turned up stainless round nuts with slotted heads.


----------



## StihlPotlicker

that's awesome @BobL


----------



## StihlPotlicker




----------



## StihlPotlicker

notice I had to put a counter weight on the nose end. is that because of my set up @BobL ?
I ruined a nice 24Ft slab of Pine that maxed out my 60" mill because I didn't realize the nose end was lifting up.


----------



## TRTermite

I have yet to do any CSMilling but am Seriously Lurking here for information (AND There is a LOT of it)
I Read to Not drive the wedges as it can lift the slab/board and influence the cut. POST 185 by Hurchalla
Is The chain sharpened evenly ( I'm sure it is but I have to mentally check it off)
Is your winch line somewhat level/parallel with the kerf/cut line or is it pulling down (influencing) on the front of mill rig and possibly lifting on back of mill rig?? 
What kind of winch line are you using? (Fishing for Information)
The winch is what I Am looking at as your nose issue
I am looking for info as I am working towards cutting a Large Long Burr Oak but it will have to wait until I get some experience. 
Thanks for posting the Video and nose counterweight issue/concept. Food for thought as a preventative practice


----------



## BobL

StihlPotlicker said:


> notice I had to put a counter weight on the nose end. is that because of my set up @BobL ?
> I ruined a nice 24Ft slab of Pine that maxed out my 60" mill because I didn't realize the nose end was lifting up.


Try tilting the rails/mill - like this.


----------



## StihlPotlicker

TRTermite said:


> I have yet to do any CSMilling but am Seriously Lurking here for information (AND There is a LOT of it)
> I Read to Not drive the wedges as it can lift the slab/board and influence the cut. POST 185 by Hurchalla
> Is The chain sharpened evenly ( I'm sure it is but I have to mentally check it off)
> Is your winch line somewhat level/parallel with the kerf/cut line or is it pulling down (influencing) on the front of mill rig and possibly lifting on back of mill rig??
> What kind of winch line are you using? (Fishing for Information)
> The winch is what I Am looking at as your nose issue
> I am looking for info as I am working towards cutting a Large Long Burr Oak but it will have to wait until I get some experience.
> Thanks for posting the Video and nose counterweight issue/concept. Food for thought as a preventative practice


I don't think the winch would have influenced it, but maybe it could have.


----------



## StihlPotlicker

BobL said:


> Try tilting the rails/mill - like this.View attachment 986717


ok thanks. is that a hand throttle I am seeing?


----------



## BobL

StihlPotlicker said:


> ok thanks. is that a hand throttle I am seeing?


Look here for full details - https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/modding-the-bil-mill-to-take-the-880.87987/#post-1369623
Dont just look at the the first few pictures - keep scrolling.


----------



## TRTermite

StihlPotlicker said:


> I don't think the winch would have influenced it, but maybe it could have.


I caught myself questioning a few things about my comment ; Mostly the nose rising not the complete back rail My way of thinking would have the saw diving down the whole width of cut, not bar nose only.
I should have edited in my thoughts .. Maybe this way will help others analyze issues on their project.


----------



## Lightning Performance

My bar nose tends to lift if the mill is only three foot or the bar is less than a 42". Always seem to have a bucket around or chunk of wood to punch out and set on the post. That generally evens out the load and using a block to hook up the winch rope when needed.

About ready to start stepping away from the saw to watch it go. The saws are quite capable of running downhill on their own.


----------



## thenne1713

I cud b wrong, but my suspicion is the upper cutters are slightly longer than the lower cutters? Alternate might b that just a FEW cutters on top are longer. Do a close inspection after you note the issue? Good Luck


----------



## HumBurner

Hey BobL, thanks again for compiling and igniting this thread. I managed to get a beautiful finish on this cut re ently. I'm a bit rusty, but this restoked my enjoyment in the process. The knowledge and experience you share certainly helps those of us with less know-how to dive in!


----------



## George Hurchalla

HumBurner said:


> Hey BobL, thanks again for compiling and igniting this thread. I managed to get a beautiful finish on this cut re ently. I'm a bit rusty, but this restoked my enjoyment in the process. The knowledge and experience you share certainly helps those of us with less know-how to dive in!
> 
> View attachment 997322
> View attachment 997323
> View attachment 997324


 Much as I felt I'd learned from Bob in years past, I found a lot I'd never actually put into practice. Had left this forum for awhile as Bob got quiet on it and posts went to a trickle, but the Facebook CSM group I joined has proved a bit disappointing after high initial hopes for it and a bit of knowledge gained. Someone on the group showed a Hi-Lift log jack device I liked that I realized looking back at the AS archives was just a copy of Bob's jack, and promptly made one of my own out of shop scrap. Got me looking at all Bob's devices and suggestions again. I like his Unistrut rail guide too, I was planning on putting one together with the same threaded rod rungs and hadn't thought of just aligning and joining extra sections like he does for long cuts. Most people just use Unistrut for first cuts propped on end brackets, so don't bother joining the rails like a ladder, but I want a rigid ladder-like structure for every cut. My cheap ladder flexes way too much. I only looked at Unistrut in person for the first time at Home Depot this week, and never realized how incredibly heavy duty it was. Would have switched to it long ago had I known. Also have gotten enthusiastically into lo pro gear and milling for most logs under 30" lately. There's literally a great companion book of more modern knowledge and devices and techniques to Malloff's "Chainsaw Lumbermaking" that could be compiled from all of Bob's posts on here.


----------



## BobL

Thanks George. I left FB about a year ago actually I have been blocked from using it by FB, but that suits me. When I joined FB I was getting lots of ads for sleazy women so I registered as a female but then to put up with ads for feminine hygiene products, so I started using FB with an ad strripper app called Fluff Buster which FB don't like. I also made lots of derogatory remarks about FB on FB until finally blokes me and they asked me for a security check - photo of me from my passport or drivers license. I declined and I have never been back. I use FB mainly to stay in touch with overseas friends an relatives but we now use private chat apps for that so I dont miss FB at all.

Back to your topic. I have thought about writing a a book. Maybe when I can no longer use a big CS?


----------



## George Hurchalla

BobL said:


> Thanks George. I left FB about a year ago actually I have been blocked from using it by FB, but that suits me. When I joined FB I was getting lots of ads for sleazy women so I registered as a female but then to put up with ads for feminine hygiene products, so I started using FB with an ad strripper app called Fluff Buster which FB don't like. I also made lots of derogatory remarks about FB on FB until finally blokes me and they asked me for a security check - photo of me from my passport or drivers license. I declined and I have never been back. I use FB mainly to stay in touch with overseas friends an relatives but we now use private chat apps for that so I dont miss FB at all.
> 
> Back to your topic. I have thought about writing a a book. Maybe when I can no longer use a big CS?


Yeah, I'd never survive FB without FluffBuster - even then FB has tried every way they can to make parts of FluffBuster not work. A number of my friends have had all kinds of drama with FB if they've alarmed any of the AI bots by saying the wrong thing. I kind of have to use it as a marketing tool cause I'm an author/historian as well as a woodworker, but was perfectly happy before FB came along and am sure could be perfectly happy without it. Write that book someday! But I hear ya, I keep too busy milling and woodworking to write most of the time cause there's just no money in writing and I can do it all I want when I can no longer pick up a chainsaw. Actually have 16 hectares north of Bundaberg in QLD that I bought for my Dad 36 years ago that I haven't been to in 30 years. Was all scrappy smaller gum trees back then but maybe there's something worth milling there by now. It's ironic that all the information at people's fingertips there is these days, this long history of milling info to be mined here and other sites, and the vast amount of new millers are still crawling around on the ground trying to figure out why their chains don't cut better. Not enough curiosity and desire to work smarter not harder. Partly I think that's the China clone effect of all things milling - you can buy a cheap clone saw, mill, chain, etc, so a lot of new guys haven't had to figure out the first thing of building/tweaking/fixing anything themselves. My proudest moment in the past five years was fabricating my own industrial strength 20 ton shop press from the ground up. All American steel from the local steel recycling yard, 2 x 3 rectangular tubing and 4 x 5/8" steel flat bar, and Ford 351 bolts from a dead engine I dismantled. Absolutely bombproof. The Chinese frames bend with like 5 tons of pressure. Every single Chinese product I've found fault with has usually been not to do with the precision of machining, it's always been the incredibly low strength of Chinese steel.


----------



## George Hurchalla

My take on Bob's Hi-Lift log jack, based on shop scraps. For the triangle stabilizer, some 1.5" aluminum angle I had left over from first attempts at a frame for a router sled setup (proved too flexible over a span). The attachment is a cut down section from a first attempt at a cross member for a home built shop press that I decided wasn't strong enough. I bent a couple scrap pieces of 2 x 1/4 flat bar in my shop press bender and bolted them on to the attachment. Then I figured out I couldn't just balance the attachment on the jack, so I ran a U bolt through the tubing to secure it.


----------



## George Hurchalla

On to "pimp my mill" upgrades long overdue. My CBB (can’t be bothered) always got in the way. Was spurred along by getting a GB lo pro bar that had already been drilled for an oiler bolt and came w one, and also had bar holes for bolt on mounting. Drilled holes in the upper clamps w a 17/64 bit, tapped it to 5/16 thread, and now have easy chain replacement while still in the mill, and can cut lower. Put together my PVC pipe aux oiler. And switched out my clunky larger winch I'd just used cause I already had it to the smallest cheapest 600lb winch I could find ($20-ish on Amazon). Finally the milling setup I’ve always wanted. All my GB bars are pre-drilled for bolt on, just need to drill my 42” Stihl .404 bar. Now I have the clamp bolt holes free on the mill, I can run wheel setups through them. There's been the knock on the standard Granberg accessory that it's only good for the top half of the log, which Bob compensated for on his custom setup by making his wheels adjustable height, but still always below the bar (I stand corrected on that, as Bob points out below). While messing around with spacers on my bolts to keep the wheels fixed at a lower position, I thought, why not put wheels on the top side as well - four wheel drive lol. These are small old skate wheels, minimal diameter, but I have rollerblade wheels twice as wide I can try too if they prove better for wildly uneven logs. May be some flaw in my thinking here, but seems it should be a good cheap simple wheel guide solution. Can take them off easily when I do last cuts where I want the bar as low as possible (a good feature of bolt on vs clamping).


----------



## gnef

I’ve been lurking here for a while reading as much as I can. I’ve been chainsaw milling for about 4 years now, with the last couple being more serious. I don’t have much to add except for some of my recent modifications and builds for and adjacent to milling. I’ve seen the many options posted here for first cut rails (what many call log rails). I don’t claim that this is the best, I just want to present an option that may be interesting, and I am very happy with how things turned out.

I decided to get some v-slot 2020 based aluminum extrusion and accessories to build with. I bought 2m lengths of 2020, 2040, and 2080. 

For my first cut rail, I used 2040 vertically oriented, and two sections linked end to end, which gives me a total length right around 13 ft. The cross members are also 2040 horizontally oriented with holes drilled for my screws. I also added a middle rail of 2020 that matches my beam mill so I can double purpose the rail for both the first cut and for perpendicular beam cuts when needed.















I also used the aluminum to build a router sled for flattening the slabs, primarily out of 2020 with a ½” acrylic base plate and v-wheels that sit in the v-slot. I built a cross rail that matched the width of the wheels:














I just recently decided to add gantry plates with wheels that also match the v-slots:









This essentially allows my cross rail to act as a linear rail, and I can add more rails on end to make it longer if needed. I had originally thought the 2080 would be wide enough, but for my thicker slabs, I needed to add more aluminum. I do plan on buying more aluminum, and adding some 2060 to give myself more flexibility.

It was expensive to get all the aluminum and the fittings, but it did exactly what I’ve been wanting to be able to do, and I’ll be getting more to keep on hand to build more fixtures and jigs, as it is really versatile for these things. 

I hope this gives some of you ideas of what you can do and build with!


----------



## BobL

George Hurchalla said:


> Now I have the clamp bolt holes free on the mill, I can run wheel setups through them. There's been the knock on the standard Granberg accessory that it's only good for the top half of the log, which Bob compensated for on his custom setup by making his wheels adjustable height, but still always below the bar. While messing around with spacers on my bolts to keep the wheels fixed at a lower position, I thought, why not put wheels on the top side as well - four wheel drive lol. These are small old skate wheels, minimal diameter, but I have rollerblade wheels twice as wide I can try too if they prove better for wildly uneven logs. May be some flaw in my thinking here, but seems it should be a good cheap simple wheel guide solution. Can take them off easily when I do last cuts where I want the bar as low as possible (a good feature of bolt on vs clamping).



I've had topside wheels on BIL since 2009?
White Teflon ones adjustable height ones above the bar and Black HDPE below the bar.

20

On my small mill the wheels can be rotated to be either above or blow the bar.


----------



## George Hurchalla

BobL said:


> I've had topside wheels on BIL since 2009?
> White Teflon ones adjustable height ones above the bar and Black HDPE below the bar.


Sorry, my bad, Bob, I've usually just caught your early versions of things going through threads and you tend to be three steps ahead of me with your final advanced versions. Or also sometimes I skim too fast and don't fully absorb what you've done in the first place. Really top notch system.


----------



## George Hurchalla

gnef said:


> It was expensive to get all the aluminum and the fittings, but it did exactly what I’ve been wanting to be able to do, and I’ll be getting more to keep on hand to build more fixtures and jigs, as it is really versatile for these things.
> 
> I hope this gives some of you ideas of what you can do and build with!


Excellent setup - I've always thought thought you could build some of the best setups with that but never yet been willing to commit the time and money to do so. I was thinking for my next router planing setup of doing something more like a manual version of a CNC router. Same rails and adjustable height router mount as CNC, just you move it around. People are doing it but with conventional flat cross sleds rather than raised bridges like CNC machines. Only downside to the bridge mount is I can only mount my Bosch 2 1/4 hp router rather than my 3 1/4 in the CNC router housing. My desire for a raised bridge like on a CNC versus everyone else's manual router sled designs I've seen with CNC rails is most people are limited to milling slabs in the 2-4" range unless they put risers under their rails to do thicker pieces which seems an extra bother. Which is fine for most people because that's all their doing is slabs that size, but I want to have a wide range of thicknesses I can easily adjust to do from 1-6".


----------



## BobL

George Hurchalla said:


> Sorry, my bad, Bob, I've usually just caught your early versions of things going through threads and you tend to be three steps ahead of me with your final advanced versions. Or also sometimes I skim too fast and don't fully absorb what you've done in the first place. Really top notch system.


No worries George.


----------



## gnef

George Hurchalla said:


> Excellent setup - I've always thought thought you could build some of the best setups with that but never yet been willing to commit the time and money to do so. I was thinking for my next router planing setup of doing something more like a manual version of a CNC router. Same rails and adjustable height router mount as CNC, just you move it around. People are doing it but with conventional flat cross sleds rather than raised bridges like CNC machines. Only downside to the bridge mount is I can only mount my Bosch 2 1/4 hp router rather than my 3 1/4 in the CNC router housing. My desire for a raised bridge like on a CNC versus everyone else's manual router sled designs I've seen with CNC rails is most people are limited to milling slabs in the 2-4" range unless they put risers under their rails to do thicker pieces which seems an extra bother. Which is fine for most people because that's all their doing is slabs that size, but I want to have a wide range of thicknesses I can easily adjust to do from 1-6".


Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a long time, but the cost always made me hesitant - I spent $800 to get everything that I felt I needed and to have enough extras just in case. I also intend on spending another $700ish to add more capability and options for the future, but I do feel comfortable with that now that I've seen what I can do with the material and the fittings.

What you say is true about adding height for the rails for thicker slabs. It is actually pretty easy with this aluminum extrusion though, as there are three hole plates that line up with the v slots to line them up easily, which is what I had to do for the slab that I was working on in the picture - I had to add 2040 to the 2080 to get the thickness I needed. There are other fittings that make connecting the rails on end pretty easy too, so with the 2m sections, if I need more length, I can pretty easily add as much as I want.

For the gantry style, I'd be concerned with racking and stability while moving. Were you thinking of an acme thread for the z axis movement?


----------



## BobL

Nice work on the Al rails.
When I made my log rails out of HD Unistrut back in 2007 I looked into using Al extrusions but the cost was more than twice that for the Unistrut and I had no idea how they would stand up to the weight. Now that I'm heading into my late 60's my knees would no longer like me repeatedly lifting those HD Unistruts iso a set of Al rails sounds more and more appealing but I cant justify them as I hardly ever use my big CS mills these days.

Your design could be modified by adding adjustable width and brackets that grab the end of the log like this.
The bolts have pointed ends which bite into the log end hold the rails very firmly.


----------



## gnef

BobL said:


> Nice work on the Al rails.
> When I made my log rails out of HD Unistrut back in 2007 I looked into using Al extrusions but the cost was more than twice that for the Unistrut and I had no idea how they would stand up to the weight. Now that I'm heading into my late 60's my knees would no longer like me repeatedly lifting those HD Instructs iso a set of Al rails sounds more and more appealing but I cant justify them as I hardly ever use mu big CS mills these days.
> 
> The design could be modified by adding adjustable width and brackets that grab the end of the log like this.
> The bolts have printed ends which bite into the log end hold the rials very firmly.
> View attachment 1001857


The weight was definitely one of the reasons I went with the aluminum rather than something more rigid like your unistrut (I've also seen some that use steel square tubing - now that is heavy!). The 2040 that I used for the rails is really quite light, and I bought some v-slot handles so it is really easy to carry and move around. They do sag if I am bridging over the entire 4m, but as long as I have some supports throughout, they are more than rigid enough. If I need more rigidity, I can try going with 2060, but I am quite happy with how it is working with the 2040.

Adding adjustable width could be an interesting idea, but I'd have to figure out the bridging, since it would really only be supported at each end of the log, and for long logs, there would definitely be some sagging. I'll keep it in mind!


----------



## Charlie Coyote

BobL said:


> My concern with cranks is it looks like you have to constantly hold the mill away from the side of the log, presumably to prevent the saw from bogging down against the side of the log. That was also my experience with cranks and that just felt like wasted energy so this is when I looked for other solutions like wheels and a remote throttle. Wheels are not perfect but they will minimize the need to constantly hold the mill away from the side of the log.
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . if a CSM operator's arms hurt there's something not right with their set up. ;-)
> If the chain cutter geometry is set right and the cutters are sharp, with wheels and a slight slope on the log, a CSM should self feed so there should be no need to push much or at all.
> View attachment 325999
> 
> 
> Even if there is minimal pushing, most arm soreness from CSM is due to the operators arms being spread too far apart while holding onto the mill/saw (this is why your arms are not as sore). A well located remote locking throttle eliminates this problem by getting the operators arms more directly in front them and allows them to stand up close and personal to the mill to be able to be able to apply forward pressure on the wrap handle with their leg/knee/thigh. This then in turn means the operator's arms can be free to do things like unbog the saw if needed and add wedges etc and it means it is possible not to stop milling once started which makes for smoother cuts.


"A well located remote locking throttle", sounds like it is necessary. Could you expand on how to rig it? A successful design would be of benefit, as opposed to trial and error.


----------



## George Hurchalla

gnef said:


> For the gantry style, I'd be concerned with racking and stability while moving. Were you thinking of an acme thread for the z axis movement?


Something like one of these.


https://www.amazon.com/Linear-Actuator-Ballscrew-Double-Optical/dp/B07RMFZKPW/ref=asc_df_B07RLF9DPL/?tag=&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385575056863&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7935114521698091720&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028057&hvtargid=pla-818330984106&ref=&adgrpid=79419941900&th=1



Here's the Bosch 1617 clamp setup to bolt on to it - https://www.avidcnc.com/bosch-1617-router-mount-p-192.html


----------



## gnef

George Hurchalla said:


> Something like one of these.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Linear-Actuator-Ballscrew-Double-Optical/dp/B07RMFZKPW/ref=asc_df_B07RLF9DPL/?tag=&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385575056863&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7935114521698091720&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028057&hvtargid=pla-818330984106&ref=&adgrpid=79419941900&th=1
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the Bosch 1617 clamp setup to bolt on to it - https://www.avidcnc.com/bosch-1617-router-mount-p-192.html


That is a very interesting idea! I do like the ball screw z-axis, and this could replace the acrylic plate mount with the plunge base. I'd have to redesign the gantry part though for stability. I'll keep this in mind if I ever need/want to upgrade! Thanks for the links, it has given me some ideas!


----------



## George Hurchalla

gnef said:


> That is a very interesting idea! I do like the ball screw z-axis, and this could replace the acrylic plate mount with the plunge base. I'd have to redesign the gantry part though for stability. I'll keep this in mind if I ever need/want to upgrade! Thanks for the links, it has given me some ideas!


Yeah when guys first started showing off their CNC rail router sleds it got me going down a whole rabbit hole of "how can I make this better?" for more z-axis travel. Have put it on the back burner while focusing most of my efforts on milling improvements lately but I do seriously need to put together a really good slab flattening set up soon to make use of all my larger slabs. The table frame for my existing low tech setup is wonky and have largely stopped using it, and I've been procrastinating on welding up a really proper rock solid 4'-5' x 10' frame. I have no large level surfaces anywhere in my life right now lol.


----------



## George Hurchalla

gnef said:


> That is a very interesting idea! I do like the ball screw z-axis, and this could replace the acrylic plate mount with the plunge base. I'd have to redesign the gantry part though for stability. I'll keep this in mind if I ever need/want to upgrade! Thanks for the links, it has given me some ideas!


I found this about a two hour drive from me. May go ahead and get this and think about the gantry style later. I like the brush enclosure under the router plate and dust collection. I've been having to set up outdoors due to the mess I make and this seems like it would be a clean indoor solution for my garage shop. Also found a really solid 10' x 50" table an hour from me for $65 that this would be a good match for.


----------



## SeMoTony

Westwood said:


> Wow, I didn't think I'd be losing 6". huh.
> 
> The larger trees I have are 20" or so. Looks like I'll have to go with a 28" bar then.
> 
> And when you say you'd suggest skip, you mean not bother?
> 
> And as for the auxiliary oiler, I was looking to do these in 10' lengths or so. The oiler necessary for something that short?


Skip chain as 1/2 as many cutters as regular chain. On my longer bars the teeth that aren't there allow better space for chip travel. Less clog


----------



## thenne1713

SeMoTony said:


> Westwood said:
> 
> Wow, I didn't think I'd be losing 6". huh.
> 
> The larger trees I have are 20" or so. Looks like I'll have to go with a 28" bar then.
> 
> And when you say you'd suggest skip, you mean not bother?


Remove the dogs and use hard nose bar= closer to 4" loss total;
With Granberg SMALL LOG MILL, there is no nose clamp, so good there w/ 20"-24" bar; you get compensated once two slabs removed.


Using roller tip loses more, as clamping the spinning TIP= NO, NO, NO
SKIP TOOTH CHAIN = less cutters= more space between cutters= fewer cutters in the wood= MORE HP per Cutter in the wood.


----------



## SeMoTony

thenne1713 said:


> Remove the dogs and use hard nose bar= closer to 4" loss total;
> With Granberg SMALL LOG MILL, there is no nose clamp, so good there w/ 20"-24" bar; you get compensated once two slabs removed.
> 
> 
> Using roller tip loses more, as clamping the spinning TIP= NO, NO, NO
> SKIP TOOTH CHAIN = less cutters= more space between cutters= fewer cutters in the wood= MORE HP per Cutter in the wood.


I have drilled thru the middle of the roller tip. Just @ 1/4" so a 1/4x 20x 1 1/4 passes thru. It's a near full thread that is enough to tighten into middle of square or round aluminum vertical bar for that clamp. Best of both worlds. Longer reach while less resist out there.
The vertical handle is put at middle or beyond. Since I mill upside down, using the oiled side of the bar, throwing chips out on the open far side, I hold against cutting back push and down to keep bar parallel with guide.. Chips won't clog up saw end and are not in place to stumble around on.. 16 slices on a large elm left 3 foot wide and around 2 foot high pile that Mike was happy to put into his garden. Dint need to mess with it personally lol


----------

