# Separate "create a lean" backcut with wedge?



## Billy_Bob (Jul 26, 2008)

Normally I like to experiment with things to see what happens / learn new things.

However with felling small trees, I think I'll do all my "experimenting" only by first discussing it here!

Anyway for a small diameter tree (like 10 inches) which has no obvious lean and there is a possibility of the tree sitting back on your saw when cutting the back cut.... (And you can't stick in a wedge behind the saw because tree is too small.)

How about first making a "lean cut" [my invented words] higher up on the tree which would be the same as a back cut, then hammering in a wedge. This would create a lean I would imagine???? Or would the tree not lean because there was no face cut????

THEN... Say a foot below this "lean cut and wedge", make a regular face cut and back cut. Then the tree would be guaranteed to fall the direction you want.

(Or making this "lean cut" lower down than the regular cuts???)


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## ddhlakebound (Jul 26, 2008)

Sounds pretty scary to me.....

Just put in your back cut first, then install the wedge. Then put in the face cut, leaving enough hinge to hold it up, but little enough for the wedge to send it over.


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## oldirty (Jul 26, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> Sounds pretty scary to me.....
> 
> .




yah me too!


i'm glad though that you thought about it here and not in the woods though.

personally i wouldnt want to do it that way because of the fact that you just cut halfway into the wood above where you want to be cutting. i would be afraid of maybe a barberchair that could happen while you are below the wedge putting the facecut and backcut in.

if you are trying to get your wood into the "lay" use some mechanical advantage instead of compromising what your cutting. MA could be rope, wedge, or a sturdy polesaw to get under a branch much higher up to create some higher push. anything other than having to cut under that created weakness you just made.


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## yotehowler (Jul 26, 2008)

When I started working in the woods I noticed the brush crews using a method with trees like this that seemed to work pretty well. I've used it quite a bit with smaller trees and never had a problem yet.

They would cut a wedge on the side they wanted the tree to fall, then make an angled backcut starting above the wedge on the back side of the tree and cutting down (about a 45 degree angle I suppose) leaving some hinge wood. If the tree didn't want to go over on its own they would either push it over (if it was small enough) or wedge it over.


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## redprospector (Jul 26, 2008)

yotehowler said:


> When I started working in the woods I noticed the brush crews using a method with trees like this that seemed to work pretty well. I've used it quite a bit with smaller trees and never had a problem yet.
> 
> They would cut a wedge on the side they wanted the tree to fall, then make an angled backcut starting above the wedge on the back side of the tree and cutting down (about a 45 degree angle I suppose) leaving some hinge wood. If the tree didn't want to go over on its own they would either push it over (if it was small enough) or wedge it over.



I just don't think that's such a good idea.

Andy


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## joesawer (Jul 26, 2008)

redprospector said:


> I just don't think that's such a good idea.
> 
> Andy





+1 
Avoid copying anyone who uses a 45 degree back cut.

Imo...Making a back cut with out a face cut to move the tree forward then facing and back cutting 1 foot below would not be very effective.
First you are right about the back cut with out the face not being very efficiant. Think of tipping the tree as tipping a bank vault over. If you put a lever under one side and try to tip it over it is not going to work very well, but if you dig the ground out from under one half it will tip pretty easy.
Also moving the face only a foot from a wedged open kerf under tension is asking for a major split. And for the tree to set down on the saw while you are trying to cut the face.


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## yotehowler (Jul 26, 2008)

redprospector said:


> I just don't think that's such a good idea.
> 
> Andy



Andy (or anyone else), can you tell me why? Please don't think I'm being confrontational here, I'm just trying to learn something. 

The head cutter on the brush crew told me that they only used the angled backcut on smallish trees without much lean. I understand that it would not be safe on a bigger tree, or necesary on a tree with enough lean to tip it over easily. He seemed to think the angled backcut helped keep the tree from setting back and allowed it to release more easily into the lay he wanted.

Thanks,
Joe


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## joesawer (Jul 26, 2008)

yotehowler said:


> Andy (or anyone else), can you tell me why? Please don't think I'm being confrontational here, I'm just trying to learn something.
> 
> The head cutter on the brush crew told me that they only used the angled backcut on smallish trees without much lean. I understand that it would not be safe on a bigger tree, or necesary on a tree with enough lean to tip it over easily. He seemed to think the angled backcut helped keep the tree from setting back and allowed it to release more easily into the lay he wanted.
> 
> ...





Read this thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=57982&highlight=angled+back+cuts

On top of all of that is listed in that thread. On a brush crew, cutting the back cut into a punji stake is a very bad idea.


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## redprospector (Jul 26, 2008)

yotehowler said:


> Andy (or anyone else), can you tell me why? Please don't think I'm being confrontational here, I'm just trying to learn something.
> 
> The head cutter on the brush crew told me that they only used the angled backcut on smallish trees without much lean. I understand that it would not be safe on a bigger tree, or necesary on a tree with enough lean to tip it over easily. He seemed to think the angled backcut helped keep the tree from setting back and allowed it to release more easily into the lay he wanted.
> 
> ...



There are a lot of reasons this is not a good Idea, but the best one is; It dosen't work!!!
If you wedge a tree, you aren't trying to push it over, you are lifting the tree.
If you have a 45* back cut, and the tree dosen't want to lift, there is a posibility of splitting that 45* angle on the stump, eliminating any chance of lifting the tree.
The "head cutter" you mentioned, thinks just like everyone else I've met who uses this method. They just don't understand everything (or anything) that's going on while a tree is being felled. 
How would an angled back cut keep a tree from setting back? The tree dosen't care what angle the back cut is at (but you need to), an angled back cut has no effect on gravity.

Andy


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## yotehowler (Jul 26, 2008)

*Thanks.*

I appreciate the responses.

I guess I just kinda took for granted that this guy actually knew what he was doing. He worked for a pretty big logging/construction outfit and certainly cut a lot of small stuff while brushing roads, right of ways, etc.


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## redlaker (Jul 26, 2008)

back cut, set wedge, face cut... would have saved myself alot of work if I learned this one a long time ago. 

just watch as you are doing your face to make sure you havent misjudged the lean, or set the wedge too tight. then get out the axe and tap it over.

also the 5.5inch wedges work good in small trees, you can bury them right in there and get some good lift. even if it doesnt go over with the wedge, on a small tree you probably just gained yourself enough that you will be able to push it over by hand

rotor wash from a helicopter also does well to "create lean" in small trees, kinda like pushing it with a skidder, if you just happen to have a chopper overhead and no skidder within 200 miles


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## oldirty (Jul 26, 2008)

redlaker said:


> rotor wash from a helicopter also does well to "create lean" in small trees, kinda like pushing it with a skidder, if you just happen to have a chopper overhead and no skidder within 200 miles




do ya just run through back cutting everything in your path while he's above ya? lol.


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## Fuzly (Jul 26, 2008)

Ever try cut the face first, then bore cut, establish the hinge and cut back leaving enough wood to keep it from going over, get the saw bar out and a wedge in, snug it up a little, then release (finish the back cut) from the back?


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## redlaker (Jul 26, 2008)

oldirty said:


> do ya just run through back cutting everything in your path while he's above ya? lol.



when cutting helipads they were usually circular and if possible just making a small open space a big one, trees would go down with just a straight backcut, or a small kerf face and backcut. works good when time is of the essence. 
you want all the trees facing away from the center of the pad so the chopper would push them down when landing instead of picking them up. if a tree goes into the rotors then its game over


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## redlaker (Jul 26, 2008)

Fuzly said:


> Ever try cut the face first, then bore cut, establish the hinge and cut back leaving enough wood to keep it from going over, get the saw bar out and a wedge in, snug it up a little, then release (finish the back cut) from the back?




sounds a little bit like the quarter cut described in another thread


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## Fuzly (Jul 27, 2008)

redlaker said:


> sounds a little bit like the quarter cut described in another thread



Finally took the time to load up Ekka's quarter cut video. (dial up you know) Definitely some similarites just longer bar and go all the way through the trunk on the first cut.

Disadvantage: the wedge is closer to the hinge, so I don't do it with anything real big/heavy

(On a side note, crews are installing fiber optic cable along the highway here. So I will have the choice of DSL very soon, it will be nice to watch some more of the videos here and perhaps post some photos or something of my own.)


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## smokechase II (Jul 27, 2008)

*Degree of difficulty*

*"How about first making a "lean cut" [my invented words] higher up on the tree which would be the same as a back cut, then hammering in a wedge. This would create a lean I would imagine???? Or would the tree not lean because there was no face cut????"*

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Don't make the world too complex or create unnecessary problems.

1) Yes you would need to have that cut work with some sort of face to do any serious lean conversion. 
2) If you didn't do that cut with a face and just drove hard with a wedge that is a very good way to barber chair.
3) Just do that cut first at a safe falling height and place wedge(s) as needed then do the face. (Or the quarter cut or plunge cuts etc.)


There is a real potential to cause a jack knife event or your higher wedge pops out or ............


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## Meadow Beaver (Aug 12, 2008)

I learned that one from the Professional Timber Falling book by D. Douglas Dent.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 12, 2008)

Fuzly said:


> Ever try cut the face first, then bore cut, establish the hinge and cut back leaving enough wood to keep it from going over, get the saw bar out and a wedge in, snug it up a little, then release (finish the back cut) from the back?



+1
Bore cut's what I'd use. Either that or make your face and back cut just enough before the tree looks like it will set back. Put a wedge in, and pound like heck.


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## 2dogs (Aug 13, 2008)

I had a 120' eucalytus sit back on the saw today. It was about 16" DBH. I had dropped a tree near this one a few minutes before. I plumbed the tree I was going to drop but I didn't go far enough uphill and away from the tree to get a good read of it. The stem was leaning to my right and the limbs were mostly on the right. However about 2/3 of the way up the stem the tree swept back to the right. I did not read it corectly at all. My horizontal cut was fine but the Humboldt was off a bit, like 3/4", so after I cleaned that up there was a small kerf in the notch. When I back cut it the tree sat back. Fortunately there was plenty of hinge holding the tree. There was no room for a wedge so I called for the yarder to pull the tree, which should have taken just a minute or two. Unfortunately the yarder engineer had lowered the skyline and was checking the carriage. It took maybe 5 or 7 minutes to get a choker on the tree and it only took a slight tug to get the tree to commit but it seemed like forever. Every 30 seconds a fiber would pop and scare me. If the tree had gone over backwards it would have very bad for me and the boss. We were on the edge of the unit near a cliff over the main road. Thank goodness for a correctly sized hinge. Next time I'll get farther away when I size up a tree like this.

BTW the main faller said I should have cut the back cut and stuck in a wedge and then cut the pie out.


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## elliott (Aug 16, 2008)

Fuzly said:


> Disadvantage: the wedge is closer to the hinge, so I don't do it with anything real big/heavy



The method you discribed is a very good and safe method for felling. One way around your disadvantage is to bore in from the face cut going straight back. Understandably, this takes away a little bit of hinge, but not enough to worry about. After the nose of my bar exits the back of the tree, I like to sweep it one way and then the other to widen that hole. This will not take any more hinge away. Then drive the wedge(s), cut the holding wood on each side, and let 'er fall.


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## Fuzly (Aug 18, 2008)

elliott said:


> The method you discribed is a very good and safe method for felling. One way around your disadvantage is to bore in from the face cut going straight back. Understandably, this takes away a little bit of hinge, but not enough to worry about. After the nose of my bar exits the back of the tree, I like to sweep it one way and then the other to widen that hole. This will not take any more hinge away. Then drive the wedge(s), cut the holding wood on each side, and let 'er fall.



I read about that somewhere but never tried it.

I will definitely give it a try, sound like it will work just fine.


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## farmboy53 (Aug 21, 2014)

I use the wedge to keep the bar from getting pinched. Remember if the wind blows the wedge can fall out, as the tree starts forward out it comes only to have the wind bring the tree back with no wedge. If the tree has a back lean and the wedge falls out as described the saw gets pinched, the hinge breaks and major damage may occur. The wedge is no guarantee. If the tree has a back lean and you attempt to use a wedge to lift, while pounding you can break the hinge.


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## RandyMac (Aug 21, 2014)

I put that CC&P necro-poster on ignore...bye bye FB53


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