# How long did it take you to be able to bid?



## argueta (Jun 18, 2009)

This is a questions I have been curious about, how long were you in the business to be able to give your business a profitable bid?


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## ASD (Jun 19, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Over 20 years and I'm still working on it.



+1 21 Years into it and I am still working on it.


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## chip's-tree (Jun 19, 2009)

*losing money*

lose money on a few jobs and you'll figure it out dang fast....
even the best make costly mistakes


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## chucker (Jun 19, 2009)

lol ? been a down hill slide every since i got started in 1983....so after 26 years i am stll learning the ropes to the big bucks!!! lol


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## chipperscompany (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow


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## PurdueJoe (Jun 20, 2009)

IMO any tree guy that says he's never bombed a bid either is lying or he's wasting his talents by only doing tree work.


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## pistol pete (Jun 21, 2009)

*Speaking of bombing bids*

Last week my town got hit with straight line winds gusting into the 80's. While surveying the damage and looking for work we drove up on twin 60 foot pin oaks with the tops blown out of them. There was no technical work involved simply cut them up and move them out. I bid the job for $1050.00 and left, with the homeowner needing to think it over. A few days later I get a call from the guy. He tells me I can do the job but he wants to pay me an additional $200.00 to take down a much smaller pin oak in addition. Well, I drive back by the site and look at the tree from the truck (mistake). It was smaller but only by about 12 inches in diameter. I called the homeowner to confirm the location of the tree and found out that $1250.00 was all he was willing to pay. I was caught up on work and really needed the job so I took the guy's offer (mistake #2). 
I rented a skid loader with a grapple and paid one of my hands to run it. When we showed up to do the work I walked around planning my attack. While sizing up the additional tree I found it to be hanging over the neighbor’s house, a fence, and several ornamental trees. I estimated the additional "small tree" at $800.00 but I was set in at $200.00. I cut up both downed trees in 4 hours. The additional tree took me and a ground guy 4 hours by itself. When I raked up the last pile of debris, I had put in 16 hours on site. Skid loader rental cost me $360.00 after filling it up with diesel. My two hands cost me $350.00. I ruined one bar and tore a door off of my utility bed. I hauled 9 loads of debris to my house and 2 to the city dump. Usually I get $50.00 per load as a dump and fuel fee which comes to $550.00 for hauling. The grand total was $1260.00 and that does not cover chain sharpening, saw gas, ect. To sum it up I basically took the guys trees out for free and simply got paid to haul off the material. After this nightmare of a job I am adopting the principle of never coming off of my original estimate. I am not a used car salesman and I do not build in overinflated prices to negotiate with homeowners. My dilemma is should I show this guy exactly what it cost me to do this job, to show him the hell of deal he just got? I only fear that I may piss off a customer just to make my self feel better.


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## chip's-tree (Jun 21, 2009)

pistol pete said:


> Last week my town got hit with straight line winds gusting into the 80's. While surveying the damage and looking for work we drove up on twin 60 foot pin oaks with the tops blown out of them. There was no technical work involved simply cut them up and move them out. I bid the job for $1050.00 and left, with the homeowner needing to think it over. A few days later I get a call from the guy. He tells me I can do the job but he wants to pay me an additional $200.00 to take down a much smaller pin oak in addition. Well, I drive back by the site and look at the tree from the truck (mistake). It was smaller but only by about 12 inches in diameter. I called the homeowner to confirm the location of the tree and found out that $1250.00 was all he was willing to pay. I was caught up on work and really needed the job so I took the guy's offer (mistake #2).
> I rented a skid loader with a grapple and paid one of my hands to run it. When we showed up to do the work I walked around planning my attack. While sizing up the additional tree I found it to be hanging over the neighbor’s house, a fence, and several ornamental trees. I estimated the additional "small tree" at $800.00 but I was set in at $200.00. I cut up both downed trees in 4 hours. The additional tree took me and a ground guy 4 hours by itself. When I raked up the last pile of debris, I had put in 16 hours on site. Skid loader rental cost me $360.00 after filling it up with diesel. My two hands cost me $350.00. I ruined one bar and tore a door off of my utility bed. I hauled 9 loads of debris to my house and 2 to the city dump. Usually I get $50.00 per load as a dump and fuel fee which comes to $550.00 for hauling. The grand total was $1260.00 and that does not cover chain sharpening, saw gas, ect. To sum it up I basically took the guys trees out for free and simply got paid to haul off the material. After this nightmare of a job I am adopting the principle of never coming off of my original estimate. I am not a used car salesman and I do not build in overinflated prices to negotiate with homeowners. My dilemma is should I show this guy exactly what it cost me to do this job, to show him the hell of deal he just got? I only fear that I may piss off a customer just to make my self feel better.



I made that mistake years ago---standing in front yard (100 yards away ) and pricing trees-----NEVER again...now I look and I price, I don't take HO prices for anything...if they want to bargin then they can find someone else..I still make enough mistakes believe me...


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## argueta (Jun 21, 2009)

pistol pete said:


> Last week my town got hit with straight line winds gusting into the 80's. While surveying the damage and looking for work we drove up on twin 60 foot pin oaks with the tops blown out of them. There was no technical work involved simply cut them up and move them out. I bid the job for $1050.00 and left, with the homeowner needing to think it over. A few days later I get a call from the guy. He tells me I can do the job but he wants to pay me an additional $200.00 to take down a much smaller pin oak in addition. Well, I drive back by the site and look at the tree from the truck (mistake). It was smaller but only by about 12 inches in diameter. I called the homeowner to confirm the location of the tree and found out that $1250.00 was all he was willing to pay. I was caught up on work and really needed the job so I took the guy's offer (mistake #2).
> I rented a skid loader with a grapple and paid one of my hands to run it. When we showed up to do the work I walked around planning my attack. While sizing up the additional tree I found it to be hanging over the neighbor’s house, a fence, and several ornamental trees. I estimated the additional "small tree" at $800.00 but I was set in at $200.00. I cut up both downed trees in 4 hours. The additional tree took me and a ground guy 4 hours by itself. When I raked up the last pile of debris, I had put in 16 hours on site. Skid loader rental cost me $360.00 after filling it up with diesel. My two hands cost me $350.00. I ruined one bar and tore a door off of my utility bed. I hauled 9 loads of debris to my house and 2 to the city dump. Usually I get $50.00 per load as a dump and fuel fee which comes to $550.00 for hauling. The grand total was $1260.00 and that does not cover chain sharpening, saw gas, ect. To sum it up I basically took the guys trees out for free and simply got paid to haul off the material. After this nightmare of a job I am adopting the principle of never coming off of my original estimate. I am not a used car salesman and I do not build in overinflated prices to negotiate with homeowners. My dilemma is should I show this guy exactly what it cost me to do this job, to show him the hell of deal he just got? I only fear that I may piss off a customer just to make my self feel better.


Thats really something. Thats what im afraid of, sometimes it seems like one is charging quite a bit, but after all the expenses labor, tools, fuel, ect... it really adds up. At what rate do you tree people try to get an hour? I was thinking $200 an hour is about right for a 5 crew man.


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## chip's-tree (Jun 21, 2009)

*hourly*

I (try) to figure $150 per hour for up to 3 men and and equip. (saws, bucket and dump)to do the job. anything more and the price goes up.


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 21, 2009)

got you guys bet est 1973 tom trees


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 21, 2009)

chip's-tree said:


> I (try) to figure $150 per hour for up to 3 men and and equip. (saws, bucket and dump)to do the job. anything more and the price goes up.



back in 1978 we got that for a day tom trees


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## chip's-tree (Jun 21, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> back in 1978 we got that for a day tom trees



tomtrees58 believe me, there has been days when I was just praying to clear that much in a day. I have had a few hard knots on my head.


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## chucker (Jun 21, 2009)

some days are diamonds ! and then some days are stones!! IM JUST HAPPY TO BE ABLE TO BREAK EVEN SOMETIMES AND PAY THE HELP TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE ANOTHER DAY .... lifes lessons we do learn with experiance????? lol


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## chip's-tree (Jun 21, 2009)

*making money*

hey chucker
I had a bad run a while back at pricing till even my brother told me he was going to start doing it.....trees always bigger after you get started.


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## chucker (Jun 21, 2009)

lol ? sometimes like california red woods !!


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm still new to bidding to be profitable but I aim to get $150 per hour for 3 guys. I figure how many loads of debris will be there and factor $100 per load into the estimate as well. If I have to use my stumper I'll tack on an extra $100 per hour for that. So if we're putting in an 8 hour day with 4 loads of debris and 1 hour stump time my bid would be roughly $1700 dollars. 12 for labor, 4 for trucks/trailers, 1 for stumper. Of course at this point, we have other sources of income and all we make goes straight into the bank for more equipment. Once I have bigger and better equipment and can move material faster I'll have to change my whole bidding process. I assume that is one of the reasons you never quite figure out how to bid a job.


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## chip's-tree (Jun 23, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'm still new to bidding to be profitable but I aim to get $150 per hour for 3 guys. I figure how many loads of debris will be there and factor $100 per load into the estimate as well. If I have to use my stumper I'll tack on an extra $100 per hour for that. So if we're putting in an 8 hour day with 4 loads of debris and 1 hour stump time my bid would be roughly $1700 dollars. 12 for labor, 4 for trucks/trailers, 1 for stumper. Of course at this point, we have other sources of income and all we make goes straight into the bank for more equipment. Once I have bigger and better equipment and can move material faster I'll have to change my whole bidding process. I assume that is one of the reasons you never quite figure out how to bid a job.



your right ---things constantly change, making it hard to profit sometimes. don't forget the economy, competition, and sometimes just bad luck..
customers don't seem to like it when you charge them say $1000 and your gone in 2 hrs.


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## YoungTreeGuy (Jun 23, 2009)

chip's-tree said:


> your right ---things constantly change, making it hard to profit sometimes. don't forget the economy, competition, and sometimes just bad luck..
> customers don't seem to like it when you charge them say $1000 and your gone in 2 hrs.



Did a $1,500 job in about 5 hrs... Customer thought we would be there 2 days. But when we got to the last part there was about 2' piece of steel 72"+ stump. Sheared the 3 bolts that secure the wheel on the grinder, dualed 9 teeth up, and can't get the shear pin out to replace the bolts... So the 5 hrs there... got another what 5 hours working on the equipment. Also got a trailer wall to reinforce because we couldn't cut the but log up enough to pull it on the dump trailer. So after the down time because of that stump and expanses we averaged $100/hr. I don't give them a time line just a time when I'm going to show up. "I'll be done by the time you get home so I can get paid" with a smile is usually what I say.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 23, 2009)

I have seen the market fluctuate a bunch it seems price is lower when cost are higher competition areas stink imo. I am very lucky to get half what you guys are bidding but I don't lose much anymore unless times are too slow. I have equipment to get r done so if I bid it tight I can bust my rump and come out but actually this business stinks when you look at the whole picture. New start-ups and illegals bidding so cheap, many of who have no overhead will give you faster gray receding hairlines but either you love it or you don't!


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## tree md (Jun 23, 2009)

I try to make $125 an hour for myself. I bid $100 a day per helper. Hauling, I figure about $75 a load. Of course, accessibility, risk, liability and job difficulty all play a part. I have been around long enough and eaten enough jobs that I can usually look one over and tell what it's worth and what it will go for, usually two different things in this economy.

I was lucky in that my first boss in this business took me on all of his sales calls and taught me what it is worth and how to sell it. That gave me a huge head start. We would set around at night after work and come up with zingers; one line catch phases to sell the job. We would have some good laughs and a lot of fun.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 23, 2009)

tree md said:


> I try to make $125 an hour for myself. I bid $100 a day per helper. Hauling, I figure about $75 a load. Of course, accessibility, risk, liability and job difficulty all play a part. I have been around long enough and eaten enough jobs that I can usually look one over and tell what it's worth and what it will go for, usually two different things in this economy.
> 
> I was lucky in that my first boss in this business took me on all of his sales calls and taught me what it is worth and how to sell it. That gave me a huge head start. We would set around at night after work and come up with zingers; one line catch phases to sell the job. We would have some good laughs and a lot of fun.



That is the thing a person could be the best arborist this side of the Pecos but if he is not a great salesman he will suffer.I am not a good salesmen just fair but I have seen great salesmen that could sell a dirty rag for more than a clean one but most of them don't do trees.


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## Greystoke (Jun 24, 2009)

*Bidding*

Bidding has definitely been one of the bigger challenges for me. My biggest problem is that I am too nice and let people talk me into low balling myself. :monkey: You know..."I live on social security" or "I just lost $180,000 in stock market" I am done with listening to this b.s. If they have a nicer house and vehicles than me and are complaining I have no more sympathy! Hell I don't even own a house! :rant: Sorry, just getting a little fired up that I have let people play me in the past.

Cody


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## ropensaddle (Jun 24, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> Bidding has definitely been one of the bigger challenges for me. My biggest problem is that I am too nice and let people talk me into low balling myself. :monkey: You know..."I live on social security" or "I just lost $180,000 in stock market" I am done with listening to this b.s. If they have a nicer house and vehicles than me and are complaining I have no more sympathy! Hell I don't even own a house! :rant: Sorry, just getting a little fired up that I have let people play me in the past.
> 
> Cody



Lol I live on fixed income! answer I understand mam I do too, politicians and overhead have fixed it where I have none


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## Greystoke (Jun 24, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol I live on fixed income! answer I understand mam I do too, politicians and overhead have fixed it where I have none


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## S Mc (Jun 24, 2009)

tree md said:


> ...what it's worth and what it will go for, usually two different things in this economy.



Those are very true words. Many times we will look at a job and figure how long it will take, look around and think "no way will they go for that". And make necessary adjustments. One thing we never do, is low ball. We offer a quality service at fair prices and that is as good as it gets.

Our survival has been in keeping the overhead low, being honest and fair, and doing good work. You will miss a bid, you will over estimate, under estimate, come out right on the money....for as long as you are doing this type of work. 

And Cody, rest assured, being a nice guy will get you call backs. 

Sylvia


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## Greystoke (Jun 25, 2009)

*Dave and Sylvia "True Proffessionals"*



S Mc said:


> Those are very true words. Many times we will look at a job and figure how long it will take, look around and think "no way will they go for that". And make necessary adjustments. One thing we never do, is low ball. We offer a quality service at fair prices and that is as good as it gets.
> 
> Our survival has been in keeping the overhead low, being honest and fair, and doing good work. You will miss a bid, you will over estimate, under estimate, come out right on the money....for as long as you are doing this type of work.
> 
> ...



Thanks Sylvia,

I am glad that to be acquainted with you and Dave. You guy's don't realize how much you have helped me...You guys are the best!

Cody


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## tree md (Jun 25, 2009)

Here's the thing, in this economy work is going for less. You have to be able to adjust. If you are bidding a lot of work and not getting the jobs adjust accordingly. If you are getting every job and the customers are not batting an eye at your prices adjust accordingly. Got to be flexible and adapt to market values. Still, you don't want to cheat yourself. I don't know about you but I'm not in it for my health. If I just wanted to make OK money I would find a less hazardous occupation.


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## ckliff (Jun 25, 2009)

Good to see the honest replies. I love the work, been at it 7 yrs, still struggle on what to charge & not sure money really does grow on trees.


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## Brush Hog (Jun 26, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> That is the thing a person could be the best arborist this side of the Pecos but if he is not a great salesman he will suffer.I am not a good salesmen just fair but I have seen great salesmen that could sell a dirty rag for more than a clean one but most of them don't do trees.



I think this is part of my problem. Not sure what the other part is though . My neighbor is a salesman for a lawn chemical co. and he could sell a drowning man a drink of water. I tried to get him to sell for me part time but no luck.


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## alanarbor (Jul 3, 2009)

Brush Hog said:


> I think this is part of my problem. Not sure what the other part is though . My neighbor is a salesman for a lawn chemical co. and he could sell a drowning man a drink of water. I tried to get him to sell for me part time but no luck.



You are apparently under the misconception that a great salesperson sells things to people that they don't need. (i.e. ice to Eskimos) 

Great sales people listen to their clients, and learn to understand what is important to them, so they sell them what they want and need. Sales people who are slick "huckster" types rarely succeed long term.


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## southsoundtree (Oct 3, 2009)

argueta said:


> Thats really something. Thats what im afraid of, sometimes it seems like one is charging quite a bit, but after all the expenses labor, tools, fuel, ect... it really adds up. At what rate do you tree people try to get an hour? I was thinking $200 an hour is about right for a 5 crew man.



Way too cheap if you have a GOOD 5 man crew with equipment!!!!!

It all depend on productivity.


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## southsoundtree (Oct 3, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> That is the thing a person could be the best arborist this side of the Pecos but if he is not a great salesman he will suffer.I am not a good salesmen just fair but I have seen great salesmen that could sell a dirty rag for more than a clean one but most of them don't do trees.



Rope--

I'm curious. Sounds like you know your salesmanship is not up to the level of your treework. Each of us has our strengths and weaknesses. Sounds like you have lots of cheapskate/ illegal competition. How are you working on this? How do plan to compete against this? I have a friend in the similar boat. He knows that he has too much cheap competition after a recent tornado brought in a lot of start ups. He only does removals, so as long as nothing is broken and the whole mess is gone, he is even with everyone else, sorta. Whereas, another guy in town is the supersalesman. He won't use gaffs for removals, all rope climbing. He leaves all the brush and wood, yet gets twice the price as my friend who does full clean-up and maybe grinding.

Again, each of us has our strengths and weaknesses, and our best best is probably to individually work on our weakest links.


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## southsoundtree (Oct 3, 2009)

An important thing mentioned, but put another way is...

you don't want to get every bid you put out there. You should be getting turned down on some if you are in the right ballpark.


After work is underway and I have established more rapport with the customer, or at the end of the job, I'll ask about other bids, and by whom. This will help you to see the market value in your area. 


To track expenses, even if you don't have the time right away, get all receipts for everything. You might put all trackable expenses on each contract when you've finished the job and are putting it in your file. This could be done by having all vehicles/equipment filled each day with fuel. Track damaged equipment on the job. Try to figure out how long chipper blades last (hard to quantify). Track your labor expense, including bookkeeping, taxes, worker's comp,etc. 

Figure your insurance, equipment expenses, etc, and divide in days worked per month. Try to include this into your mental bidding process.

Try to estimate (and write it down) how long travel time to a job will be, how long you expect to be onsite from drive up to drive off. Estimate how much brush/ chips/ loads of wood will be per job. After the job is done, compare. This will help you to calibrate. 

If you don't have time for these things, think about what you can do to save time. Are there things that your employees should be doing that you do instead. Are you hard enough on them that they come to work fully prepared everyday, with food/ water/ raingear/ enough clothing/ all the ppe you issue/ etc. You can lose valuable time that you could use for management, but may go to hand-holding. 

Best of luck.


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## lxt (Oct 10, 2009)

I dont know if I agree with the "turned down on work" part above?? Area is a huge thing where im at, I can go 1/2 hr away & get 3 times the $$$ than in my own locale.

couple reasons, my area is ex steel mill folks trying to hold on to yesteryear, layoffs are overwhelming & so is the I gotta a pick up n saw attitude!

some of my competition have good work skills but their sales, look and customer approach are terrible! you dont put a wad of mailpouch in, talk like larry the cable guy & spray down the rose bush with spit & hope to get the job!

I put alot of emphasis on sales, approach & such in my slow periods....people want some one knowledgeable with a little intellect in their verbal skills along with a rep. for doing good work! corner this & you got it made!!!

I usually stick to my price but if its over $25, $50 dollars & losing the job I will curb a bit for them, giving the customer your time will greatly help, dont just throw out a bid & leave, compliment them on other landscape things, point things out, etc..

I dont get all i bid but just about 80% give or take, lately Ive been getting the big & ugly.........& ive been charging big n ugly and getting the jobs! your area, ability, reputation and demeanor along with other things will dictate your success...........I lose on a few.....but more than make up for it on many but like others said I still have a lot to learn!!

truthfully I dont think there is a way to rightfully bid.....we have all heard the big companies say "we not making any money" & sure enough down the road one of the other big guns comes in to take over, so if the college grads working for the big Co.`s mess up bidding....whats that tell ya!


good luck!

LXT................


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## treeman75 (Nov 1, 2009)

Some days I make 1000 in the morning and 1000 in the afternoon. Alot of times I get almost as much for a trim then what other guys get for a removal. There are a couple of guys that do it part time "weekend warriors" that have no idea how to do any rigging they just cut and chuck. If I know that they bid it I wont bother. They put 500 on it and mine would be 1200, the other pros will be the same as me.


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## toddstreeservic (Nov 1, 2009)

There is this guy that I work for on occassion that just about every job that we get to he looks at the trees and says "they are bigger than I remember them" or something like that. He is constantly losing money.


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## treeman75 (Nov 1, 2009)

Some of the trees do seem to grow but not too often.


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## treeman75 (Nov 1, 2009)

I just finished a job clearing a bunch of trees most were dead elms nothing to hard. I chipped every thing and dumped a half a block away for free, the logs people came to get for fire wood. I had 9 loads of chips at 4000k lbs each me and my guy had 18 hours on it. I bid it at 2500 it was an all right job another 500-1000 would have been nice too.


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