# Topping trees for supports



## wowzers (May 5, 2012)

Anyone want to share some advice about topping trees? Haven't done one yet.


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## Jacob J. (May 5, 2012)

It's not too bad, especially on a single stem conifer. Just size it up and use the same techniques you'd use for falling a tree. Look at limb weight, that's a big factor in topping. 

The big thing with topping is a barber-chair scenario where the trunk splits open as the top is going over. That has the potential to maim or kill you. The trunk splits and then
grabs your lanyard and pulls you into the tree, and your climbing belt/saddle crushes your body. Tie both ends of the lanyard off to one side of your belt, so if that happens, the 
lanyard can break loose without pinning you to the tree. A lot of hook-tenders climb and top without a second tie-off point, so if their lanyard goes, they're falling to the ground. 

The chance of the top striking you while its' going over is small, but there can be real issues if you say, cut your holding wood prematurely or if it's real windy. If you're making the felling cuts near the limb line, manually limb it up a ways first so you don't run the risk of being struck by a limb. 
The first time I climbed and topped a decent sized tree, I knew little about real climbing. I did it with a simple back belt and a steel-core manila lanyard. I didn't know the risks and I was young and stupid (as opposed to being old and stupid.) Everything went well for me but one slip and I would have been a dead duck.


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## wowzers (May 5, 2012)

One scenario I have heard is where you top it and as it goes the top strikes another tree and wants to push the butt back on you. Looking forward to finally get to top one just trying to find out as much as possible. Thanks Jacob.


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## slowp (May 5, 2012)

One guy liked to Yahoooooo while riding the tree. The first time I heard him yelling, I hustled over because I thought something bad had happened.


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## redprospector (May 5, 2012)

I always took a double wrap with my flip line, and hooked both ends to 1 ring like Jacob J said. With a double wrap, if your hooks come out while you're doing the yahooooo ride, you won't slide all the way to the bottom.
If the backward barberchair thing bothers you, you can wrap the top with a small chain. I don't know if it would help or not, but it made a guy I know feel better about the splitting thing. 

Andy


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## Gologit (May 5, 2012)

wowzers said:


> One scenario I have heard is where you top it and as it goes the top strikes another tree and wants to push the butt back on you. Looking forward to finally get to top one just trying to find out as much as possible. Thanks Jacob.



If you get into a situation like that where the stand is so thick that the top could back push on you try piecing the top down in two or three shorter cuts. It ain't as "manly and macho" as dropping the whole top but screw that noise. The object is to safely top the tree, hang the rigging, and go home...every time.

The one thing I remember from my climbing days ( somewhere back in the Paleolithic Era) is that you'll find out real quick how a good a shape your legs are in. Or aren't.  Take your time, have somebody take pictures. Your first tree is a special one.


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## Humptulips (May 5, 2012)

I've rigged hundreds maybe into 4 digits of tail trees and support trees. I can literally count the number of support trees I've topped on the fingers of one hand. More common to top tail trees but even that a small percentage.
You don't need to top trees for safety that do not have a crew working under. 
Mostly when you are thinning, topping supports can get dicey because of putting it into another tree. I never nailed another tree but even a roll of the top will make you cinch up.

Topping a tree out in a clearcut is a different animal. Nothing to it usually once you pulled the saw up.

As for piecing the top down, chains on the top and changing your hookup on your belt. Christ, who has time for that. Leave the top in it unless you have a cold deck around the tree to swing or there is a lot of back whip when the engineer dumps the skyline.


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## 137cc (May 6, 2012)

First question is does the tree need to be topped? Topping a tree will not improve its health. Techniques should be the same for topping as felling from the ground. You just don't have an escape route. You should have a good working knowledge of tree felling from the ground before you try it from the air.

Next is OSHA rules require two points of connection whenever using a chainsaw in a tree. If you think the tree might chair then wrap just the bole of the tree below your topping cut. Also I'm a fan of manipulating the tops lean by removing a few limbs from one side. Wedges work too but can be tricky when your 30+ ft up a tree.

Also a good pair of boots and shin wraps for your spurs will go a long ways to making your climbing experience less miserable.


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## 2dogs (May 6, 2012)

Hooking both ends of the flipline into one ring while topping a tree is a new one to me. I started with a wire core manilla flipline but changed to regular wire core 25 years ago. I'm not going back. I like to easily adjust the length but then I am not topping really big trees and the little climbing I do is more tree servicey than logging. The way my knee has been feeling the last few days I may never climb again anyway.


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## Gologit (May 6, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Hooking both ends of the flipline into one ring while topping a tree is a new one to me. I started with a wire core manilla flipline but changed to regular wire core 25 years ago. I'm not going back. I like to easily adjust the length but then I am not topping really big trees and the little climbing I do is more tree servicey than logging. The way my knee has been feeling the last few days I may never climb again anyway.




I'll send you some Excedrin...as soon as I get it back from Redprospector. In the meantime, quit whining and get back to work.


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## 2dogs (May 7, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I'll send you some Excedrin...as soon as I get it back from Redprospector. In the meantime, quit whining and get back to work.



I'll have you know sir that Friday my knee was killing me and would hardly bend and I had to crawl through a hole in a chainlink fence a dozen times but I put in a full day!!! But I'm in danger of running out of ibuprofen. My nephew says only Advil works for him, not the generic stuff. That was news to me. Oh and I broke two saws Friday. My dipstick was fine BTW. And I spent all day Saturday BBQing spring lamb. So there.


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## Gologit (May 7, 2012)

If you'd just go ahead and pay the admission price at the gate you wouldn't have to be crawling through a hole in the fence.

Nobody asked about your dipstick. There's a reason for that.

And how come you didn't let us know you were BBQing lamb? I'm sure a bunch of us would have showed up and made sure there weren't any left overs to deal with. Just to be helpful, ya know.


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## tramp bushler (May 7, 2012)

I don't know how many trees I ve topped . Probably getting over 500 maybe more . You want to know whats HARD WORK , climbing and topping yellow cedar with a 2100 Husky with a 36" bar . That was before I broke in cutting and I hadn't learned about using a shoulder strap for packin my saw . All the loggers I worked with tied their saw to their climbing belt. 
Like Hump said , not much reason to top lift trees . Unless its a swing tree where you are going to walk the swing yarder along the road and swing the blocks adn move the tail holts as you go. I've never chained the bole of the tree . 

The biggest problem guys have is topping too short . The best climber I've seen would go way up to where the tree was 6-8" thru and tpp it there . Th


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## tramp bushler (May 7, 2012)

On the subject of climbing . I got my new climbing belt pretty much finished yesterday.





Front view.




Left side.




Right side . So far I only have about 50$ into it for leather . The 6" nylon strap I found in the ditch along side the highway and the 2" strapping was the long ends from my load binder straps for my truck . The buckle came from a CLC tool belt and the D rings came from my climbing belt that I bought new in 1982 .
I need to put about a quart of Huberds shoe oil on it . And get a good climbing rope from Harbor Saw . The rope thats on it now I made myself .


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## tramp bushler (May 7, 2012)

My partner used to like to quote a poem while way up a tree he was topping . High upon the spar tree hung Charlie the Rigger of Fir . He clung there like a flicker , there in his belt an spurs .



.
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## wowzers (May 7, 2012)

We don't usually top our lift block trees, but for intermediate supports it seems smart.


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## slowp (May 7, 2012)

wowzers said:


> We don't usually top our lift block trees, but for intermediate supports it seems smart.



I have seen the supports both topped and untopped. It seems to be hooktender preference. On the tail trees, the hooktender would top and guy it well if it was used for more than one setting The soils were rocky and the trees were not large. That's what he told me, as he was recruiting me to pimp for him--they were short handed. 

Just be sure not to put the support rail thing on backwards. Listen when the forester tells you she thinks you have it on backwards. Right now she can't remember whether it should be the letter C when looked at from the yarder or the letter J....Now let me find the picture of men who didn't listen. :smile2:









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## tramp bushler (May 7, 2012)

Slowp , were there any trees there . Looked like a pre commercial thinning unit ??


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## slowp (May 7, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Slowp , were there any trees there . Looked like a pre commercial thinning unit ??



Yes. It is a second growth commercial thin.


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## slowp (May 7, 2012)

The guy in the green hat was the hooktender who liked to top trees and holler. And this is also a commercial thin.

Looks like you want to see the support make the letter C when looked at from the yarder.







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## wowzers (May 7, 2012)

Looks flat as a pancake. You guys keep mentioning topping your tail trees. Are you using them as a spar and not tying to the base of the tree?


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## slowp (May 7, 2012)

wowzers said:


> Looks flat as a pancake. You guys keep mentioning topping your tail trees. Are you using them as a spar and not tying to the base of the tree?



To the flatness: Yes it was. A federal judge did the logging systems designs which were No Ground Based To Be Used. That's why supports were needed. The units had old skid trails which could have been reused. Oh, then another sale went in next to this one. Some of the units shared the same boundaries. On the later sale, skidders could be used. 

Tail trees: I guess you could call them a spar. The skyline is run through a block up in the tree, and tied off on a stump.


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## Humptulips (May 7, 2012)

wowzers said:


> Looks flat as a pancake. You guys keep mentioning topping your tail trees. Are you using them as a spar and not tying to the base of the tree?



Around here a "support tree" is like the ones slowp pictured. The carriage runs over a jack.
A tail tree is just a tree that has a block hung in it for lift ahead of the tree. It may or may not have guylines. Tail trees are usually the term used when used with a skyline. Lift trees is usually what is usually refered to when used on a high lead show.
A tail hold is the tree or stump or deadman that the skyline is attached to.

I really don't see the need to top most support trees. Reasons for topping a tree are safety if there is a crew working under it or to keep it standing. Once the guylines are in it I'm not sure why it would be less stable with the top in it.
On tail trees where you only guy behind the tree I have seen it where dumping the skyline would put a terrific whip backwards in the tree and if it was poorly rooted would creat a problem.
I went up and topped a few after the tree was rigged because this became apparent after the tree was rigged. That can be a little ticklish.


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## Humptulips (May 7, 2012)

slowp said:


> To the flatness: Yes it was. A federal judge did the logging systems designs which were No Ground Based To Be Used. That's why supports were needed. The units had old skid trails which could have been reused. Oh, then another sale went in next to this one. Some of the units shared the same boundaries. On the later sale, skidders could be used.
> 
> Tail trees: I guess you could call them a spar. The skyline is run through a block up in the tree, and tied off on a stump.



Around here they had used cats in the earlier days on the FS ground. There was backlash from the muddy cat roads left behind. For years after you could not take any equipment off the road without special permission. Even parking something off the gravel would get you in trouble.
Lately I see they are using ground based equipment for commercial thinning.


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## slowp (May 7, 2012)

Jack (intermediate support) for a Maki Carriage. I do not think they topped the tree.







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## slowp (May 8, 2012)

Rigging on a tail tree.




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## wowzers (May 8, 2012)

Gotcha. When I worked on a 98 we would tie directly to the stump in most cases, or wrap one and tie back to another. On this yarder we have a bunch of straps, blocks, and twisters tied off to many trees for the tail hold. Never had a lift block by the tail hold. Mostly hung them at blind leads for deflection. I guess it acomplishes the same thing just in a different way.


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## Humptulips (May 9, 2012)

wowzers said:


> Gotcha. When I worked on a 98 we would tie directly to the stump in most cases, or wrap one and tie back to another. On this yarder we have a bunch of straps, blocks, and twisters tied off to many trees for the tail hold. Never had a lift block by the tail hold. Mostly hung them at blind leads for deflection. I guess it acomplishes the same thing just in a different way.



Sounds like you are dealing with poorly rooted trees. I feel for you. Makes a lot of extra work.


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## wowzers (May 9, 2012)

Mostly just nothing really great to tie too, coupled with pretty big wood.


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## tramp bushler (May 10, 2012)

slowp said:


> Rigging on a tail tree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I just noticed the hook tender didn't use a lift chocker , ie cat chocker but rather a regular strap ..
We ALWAYS had to use chockers . Makes it alot easier to strip the tree . Pull the Molly and pin to open the block . Put the pin thru the goose neck and line gaurd. Grab the chocker and lift it up for slack .un bell the chocker , find a soft spot and toss the whole thing out . The lift chocker helps find the block when you get down out of the tree . But then in Southeast the ground is full of holes . .


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## wowzers (May 10, 2012)

We call them lift block chokers. Its a big swedege chocker with a whole bunch of buttons pressed on so you can get it tight on various sized trees.


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## slowp (May 10, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I just noticed the hook tender didn't use a lift chocker , ie cat chocker but rather a regular strap ..
> We ALWAYS had to use chockers . Makes it alot easier to strip the tree . Pull the Molly and pin to open the block . Put the pin thru the goose neck and line gaurd. Grab the chocker and lift it up for slack .un bell the chocker , find a soft spot and toss the whole thing out . The lift chocker helps find the block when you get down out of the tree . But then in Southeast the ground is full of holes . .



I'm not sure what stage of setup that tree was in. I think that was on a unit where it was 2 guys logging.
The son was the faller, hooktender, and chokersetter and the dad was the yarder engineer. loader operator, and chaser.
They didn't always do like other loggers do. The son packed an aluminum ladder up from the road on the bottom to use to rig trees. They started the job with an ancient gas powered Skagit yarder, then came upon a larger, later model diesel swing yarder. 

"Dad" didn't want to buy more haywire so they pulled the skyline down the hill. The son would be cussing and the dad would talk about it being good enough in the old days...I felt sorry and helped once. Then I think they started waiting till I showed up and would have me either down the hill pulling or up on the landing watching for kinks. That line is HEAVY! 

On the last day, I wanted them to finish. They'd spent a lonnnnnnng time on that unit. So, I unhooked chokers. It was a happy time when the last tree came up the hill. I also learned that you should hang onto the choker and not let it fly off. I only knocked my hardhat off, I didn't lose any teeth.


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## Humptulips (May 11, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I just noticed the hook tender didn't use a lift chocker , ie cat chocker but rather a regular strap ..
> We ALWAYS had to use chockers . Makes it alot easier to strip the tree . Pull the Molly and pin to open the block . Put the pin thru the goose neck and line gaurd. Grab the chocker and lift it up for slack .un bell the chocker , find a soft spot and toss the whole thing out . The lift chocker helps find the block when you get down out of the tree . But then in Southeast the ground is full of holes . .



You made me put my glasses on and look. I'm thinking L&I wouldn't like that if they saw it. I noticed that the strap is one of those with the double ferule pressed eyes. Bet that would be a bugger to unthread the eyes up in a tree once that eye pulls down.


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## slowp (May 11, 2012)

I did a common sense thing for derigging. Since contractors are paid to come in after logging and dump trees on the ground--for "down, woody debris" I marked the tail trees so they could be cut. After use, they could cut them down and then derig them.


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## tramp bushler (May 11, 2012)

I've see good blocks get ruined by the hook falling the lift tree. Don't want to cast no aspersions . But they are obvious . As I made the mistake ( perhaps) of telling the hooktender that I could climb when he asked . I ended up doin alot of pimping . Sad comentary on pully packers when a chocker dog is a better climber than they are. 

Wowzer . The way to get a lift chocker to stay in place is to wrap the tree . Once the weight of the lift block and haywire are on it it will stay in place . 
Funny how some hooktenders would trade jobs with me when I was pullin riggin and in good loggin ( no hang ups to go fight) and they had a funky tree to rig .


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## Humptulips (May 12, 2012)

Fell a lot of tail trees with blocks in them. Never damaged a block. We used to always derig them for fear of damaging a block if the tree was going to be fell. I stopped doing it when we started seeing nothing but second growth trees. Might be a problem on bigger trees.

On tree chokers slipping down the tree. I liked to leave a limb to hang my strap above if I could. Occasionally I could not do that. I would stick my axe in the back side and use that to keep the strap up. Once the block is on the strap it won't slip.
Yea, I used to wrap the trees when I had to but if that is an every day thing your straps are too long.
I never really had a pimp. A few times I had to have help but not often.

Rigging a lot of trees? A good double bit axe and a good pass rope are musts. I had a synthetic pass rope. I believe it was crab line. Liked it a lot.


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## tramp bushler (May 12, 2012)

This was with nice boom stick spruce . 4 log timber .


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