# Thoughts on Milling Saws: Part II



## woodsrunner (Jul 18, 2009)

Just came in the house after working on the mill and milling up a cherry log today. Thought I would update y'all on where I'm at in my quest for a milling saw to work up large diameter logs into live edge slabs. 
Santa Claus gave me a 66 inch GB double powerhead mill and a 60 inch GB double ended bar for Christmas. I was convinced the 395 wouldn't handle a 60 inch bar to my satisfaction so I started out milling with the 395 and a 42 inch Oregon Power Match bar. Works pretty good but max cut width is 34 inches with this setup and I have some much bigger logs I want to cut. So I asked alot of folks about going to the double powerhead setup. Most people discouraged me from that approach. That pushes me towards a 3120 or 880 or 090 or 076. One big saw and a long bar. I never really liked that approach because I felt like a 3120 wouldn't have much utility off the mill. 

So back and forth I went trying to develope a strategy for milling bigger logs:
Do I go with a big saw?
Which big saw?
Do I go with the double powerheads?

I had almost made up my mind to go with a big saw and a light bulb went off in my head. (It's pretty dark in there most days). I have every thing for a double powerhead setup except a chain for the 60 inch bar and 2 395's. BUT i do have a 395 and a 385! So why not use the 395 and 385? Then I can see if the double setup will work and if it doesn't all I will be out is the cost of a chain.

So off to the barn I go. I setup the double powerhead with the 395 and 385 on the 60 inch bar and go to the local Stihl shop and get a new RSC chain 193 drive links bring it home and bolt it on the mill.

Guess what?



The Double powerhead setup works like a champ!!!!
Loads more power. It is definitely a 2 man job, at least for now. It is more difficult to tension the chain, but, I suspect that is something I will figure out as time goes on. Synchronizing the powerheads wasn't an issue. You can feel it pretty easy.

So for any of you contemplating the double powerhead system, don't be afraid of it. It does work. I repeat, It does work. I know I have a lot to learn about running 2 powerheads in this situation but I feel pretty good about how it went today.

I'll try to get some pics up later tonight. Right now it's Miller time.

Scott


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## lumberjackchef (Jul 18, 2009)

Good to know Scott. I was just over at a buddies house and we were looking at his 50" granberg setup. It has a double ended bar on it already. We've only used it a couple times but only with the helper handle/ sprocket with aux oiler and my modified 066 as a powerhead. Milled some 30-40" oak slabs and it was about a 12-15 minute cut for each 8' slab. I was thinking about throwing my 064 on the other end just to give it a shot. the 066 worked like a champ and didn't seem to be working that much harder than when i have it on my 36" setup. But man it would've been nice to have a little more power in those big cuts for sure! Can't wait to see some pics. How big were the logs that you milled?


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## woodsrunner (Jul 19, 2009)

Sorry guys but I'm having trouble uploading my pictures. I'll try to get it figured out ASAP.
Scott


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## Brmorgan (Jul 20, 2009)

1. At the bottom of the Reply window, click on the "manage attachments" button. This opens a new window where you can choose the files you want to upload, one at a time up to 5 per post. After you have uploaded the files, keep this window open for the time being. 

2. Right-click on the filename of the picture(s) you uploaded and select "copy link location" (Firefox) or "copy shortcut" (IE). 

3. Then in the "message" box for the reply, put the cursor wherever you want the image to be in the post, and click on the little yellow logo with the mountains at the top of the box - this will open a little popup window where you can Paste the address of the picture that you just copied. Click OK.

Repeat steps 2-3 for each additional picture. If you have uploaded the files to another location like Photobucket or a personal webspace etc., ignore step 1 and copy the image location from wherever it is.

Hope that makes some sense. My biggest complaint with AS is that the forum code used here has a real bass-ackwards way of posting photos that are uploaded to this site, and there is no real How-To guide for doing so that I know of. The copy-paste thing for external links makes sense but it seems like unnecessary steps for internal ones.


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## LAndrews (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm not sure as I've never tried the internal upload system...but it seems like the advantage of external hosting is that the images will show in the browser window without having to click on them. 

I've found Flickr.com to be really easy to use, once I figured out the upload process which seems like it has a weird path to find. The only trick worth mentioning is to right click the pics on their site, open the properties and then copy the link from that window. They have a way to get a link, but that way is faster IMO.

Am looking forward to seeing the pics! There's some huge wood around me and a second 395 would cost about the same as one 3120. 

hth, la


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## Brmorgan (Jul 20, 2009)

LAndrews said:


> I'm not sure as I've never tried the internal upload system...but it seems like *the advantage of external hosting is that the images will show in the browser window without having to click on them*.
> 
> I've found Flickr.com to be really easy to use, once I figured out the upload process which seems like it has a weird path to find. The only trick worth mentioning is to right click the pics on their site, open the properties and then copy the link from that window. They have a way to get a link, but that way is faster IMO.
> 
> hth, la



That is also the case if you follow the sequence I outlined, if I'm understanding you correctly. My pictures are almost always hosted on-site and they always show up in the post.


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## BobL (Jul 20, 2009)

LAndrews said:


> I'm not sure as I've never tried the internal upload system...but it seems like the advantage of external hosting is that the images will show in the browser window without having to click on them.
> 
> I've found Flickr.com to be really easy to use, once I figured out the upload process which seems like it has a weird path to find. The only trick worth mentioning is to right click the pics on their site, open the properties and then copy the link from that window. They have a way to get a link, but that way is faster IMO.
> 
> ...



External picture storage systems can be very frustrating because if their external photo account goes belly up then we lose all the photos. There was a really clever smart fella here a while back called railomatic. He had a lot to offer but he had an external photo account. He vanished a while back along with most of his pics - now many of his posts are worthless.


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## LAndrews (Jul 20, 2009)

Ah. THat's what I get for not trying the suggestion first!


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## woodsrunner (Jul 20, 2009)

Lets see if this worked


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## woodsrunner (Jul 20, 2009)

5 more.


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## woodsrunner (Jul 20, 2009)

Sorry for the delay posting these. Had to go to another site to resize, then move them to here. Didn't quite figure out how to have the pictures appear in the body of the post, but at least the attachments are there.

Scott


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## Can8ianTimber (Jul 20, 2009)

Looks awsome. I think you may need a longer bar for that log though 

That is great that it worked out. I am always keeping my eyes open for a good price on another 3120xp for double end milling but that is just the "Tim Taylor" in me. Good luck and keep the pics coming.


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## woodsrunner (Jul 20, 2009)

That log was only 32 inches in diameter. It was the top 8 feet of a 16 footer. The bottom was about 34 inches. I needed to cut this one and since it was cherry it was relatively easy cutting for a first run. I used the 395 on the first log (not pictured) with a 42 inch bar and it was a lot slower cutting. I also was using the woodsman pro ripping chain on the first log. I normally use the baileys ripping chain but didn't know how many drive links I would need so I opted for going to the local Stihl dealer and having them help me figure out how many drive links I needed, thus the RSC chain. It was alot more agressive cutting and stayed sharp for that entire log. It also gave a much rougher finish to the surface of the slabs. No free lunch. Another thing I noticed was my cut times were much faster, (maybe twice as fast). This should allow the saws to have a longer life.
As I said earlier I have alot to learn about how to fine tune this system but I have determined this works pretty well and gives me considerably more power and that in itself is pretty valuable. This is all in preparation for some big chestnut and red oak logs that are 50+ inches in diameter as well as some walnut and cherry crotches which are pretty wide even tho they aren't big in diameter.

Scott


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## BobL (Jul 21, 2009)

WR, Thanks for posting the pics, I also realise you could conduct some interesting experiments with a double ender.

One I would like to know is how much 1 v 2 heads makes. This should be very easy to do. Time a cut with and without the second head running. My guess is it won't make a lot of difference up to a certain width because the limit is the chain. You could up the chain cutting capacity by going to 404 but it's complicated because 404 has to remove more kerf as well.

How's the bar bow with the two heads on the 60" bar? I believe the bar bow is much less with 2 headed saws and sometimes it bows up rather saw than down. Probably not too bad because the saws you are using are not too heavy.


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## woodsrunner (Jul 21, 2009)

Bob, 
Bar bow on this setup was UP. But I was able to take it out easily by a simple adjustment of the the horizontal mill rails (there are 4 of them on this mill). The upward bar bow on this mill is accentuated by the mounting brackets the powerheads bolt to. The brackets have 2 pieces of flat steel welded to the bottom of the brackets to stiffen them but they are tapered to the outboard end. When you bolt the powerhead onto the bracket it tends to rock to the outboard end thus bowing the bar up in the middle. So I just loosen the rail bolts and put a square on the bar and bring it back to square.
How much difference does 2 make? I didn't time the cuts because I was more interested in all the other things happening but will time some of the next logs I cut. I feel like there is a big difference but have no data to support this yet.
Chain type was another major difference. I was using Stihl RSC on this and it definitely cut much more aggressively than the woodsman pro ripping chain and stayed sharp for the whole log. Didn't have to sharpen the chain at all!
Of course, the cut surface of the slabs was much rougher.
The saws were noticeably cooler at the end of a cut. Again no empirical data to support this just observation. This should lead to increased longevity IF they really do run cooler. Again cutting times play into this: shorter cutting time should lead to lower heat load for the saw.
The best thing about this for me was it does work and I have been told and read It wasn't worth doing. Again only my opinion, but I think it is worth it for me. Especially since I didn't have to buy another saw and could utilize saws I already have (increased utility).
I'll keep playing with this and see what else I learn and try to fine tune things and see if I can figure out how to quantify some of the finer points we have discussed.

Scott


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## Brmorgan (Jul 21, 2009)

Glad you found a setup that'll work for you. I was up at my friend's shop today and that 084 is still sitting there...


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## excess650 (Jul 22, 2009)

woodsrunner said:


> Chain type was another major difference. I was using Stihl RSC on this and it definitely cut much more aggressively than the woodsman pro ripping chain and stayed sharp for the whole log. Didn't have to sharpen the chain at all!
> Of course, the cut surface of the slabs was much rougher.
> Scott



I've tried full chisel, full skip chisel, round chisel, and semi chisel in addition to Bailey's ripping chain. The Stihl semi chisel cuts smoothly and throws bigger chips than does the ripping chain. It may well stay sharp longer as well.


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## woodsrunner (Jul 22, 2009)

Brmorgan said:


> Glad you found a setup that'll work for you. I was up at my friend's shop today and that 084 is still sitting there...



Has anyone ever accused you of being an enabler?:drool:


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## Brmorgan (Jul 22, 2009)

woodsrunner said:


> Has anyone ever accused you of being an enabler?:drool:



Me?? No, never... Got a double Jack & Coke here too if you want it!


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## mtngun (Nov 18, 2009)

Somehow I missed this thread the first time around. Good info, and I repped you for it, even though I don't see a double powerhead in my future.

Any follow up reports on speed tests, especially using the same chain ?

I can see how more power would increase speed -- by allowing the saws to rev faster, or by allowing you to push the saw a little harder and take bigger bites without bogging the saw.

Are you running a 7 pin sprocket or an 8 pin ? You'd think the surplus of power would enable an 8 pin to run without bogging ?


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## woodsrunner (Nov 19, 2009)

I haven't had any time to mill lately. Too much to do on the farm and at work. But next weekend (Thanksgiving Holidays for you folks outside the U.S.A.) i have a 40 inch hickory and some big live oak logs to mill and the double ended setup will be used. As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on this, but it does work and works easily. I see advantages and disadvantages to both approaches (single big powerhead vs. twin powerheads) but for me the twin setup seems to be a good approach. 
FWIW, alot of folks have done this in the past, it's just not real common and not alot of people have taken advantage of the information sharing the internet allows (for this particular subject). If it didn't work there probably would be all those double ended bars floating around.

I'll update everyone after next weekend. With pictures. 

Scott


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## woodsrunner (Nov 19, 2009)

Running 7 pins sprockets on both saws. I'll get a little more time on the setup before I try stepping up to 8.

Scott


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## tanked (Nov 21, 2009)

I would be really interested in seeing the speeds of cuts, one power head versus 2. Im really happy to see someone trying to do this, I am getting ready to set up a carriage mill with my chainsaw and I was kicking around running two power heads on it(both 075's). The mill is gonna be set up to take a 60in log so I thought 2 power heads would really speed up the slabbing of large trees. Keep up the good work and posts woodsrunner!


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## Can8ianTimber (Nov 21, 2009)

tanked said:


> I would be really interested in seeing the speeds of cuts, one power head versus 2. Im really happy to see someone trying to do this, I am getting ready to set up a carriage mill with my chainsaw and I was kicking around running two power heads on it(both 075's). The mill is gonna be set up to take a 60in log so I thought 2 power heads would really speed up the slabbing of large trees. Keep up the good work and posts woodsrunner!



Hey do you want to buy a couple 075's as backup for your mill. I just picked up 2 of them. One was running last time the guy used them and now won't start and the other is mostly complete. See this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=115661

I picked them up for $250 and would sell them for the same since I am regreting the decision a little.


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## pinemartin (Nov 21, 2009)

Nice mill setup, good looking grain on that log


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## Brmorgan (Nov 21, 2009)

Can8ianTimber said:


> Hey do you want to buy a couple 075's as backup for your mill. I just picked up 2 of them. One was running last time the guy used them and now won't start and the other is mostly complete. See this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=115661
> 
> I picked them up for $250 and would sell them for the same since I am regreting the decision a little.



I'd pay the $250 but the shipping across the border would kill me. I'd love to have an 075/076 in the collection.


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## Can8ianTimber (Nov 22, 2009)

Brmorgan said:


> I'd pay the $250 but the shipping across the border would kill me. I'd love to have an 075/076 in the collection.



Well you may be in luck, My parents live in Chilliwack (hour east of vancouver) and I am up there a couple times a year, going to be up there mid december. Don't know how far you are from Chiliwack though?


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## Daninvan (Nov 22, 2009)

When you go to visit your folks in Chilliwack put the saws in a sturdy box and send them Greyhound. It's likely the cheapest, you may be able to check their rates on line.


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## Brmorgan (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm about 4.5 hours' drive north of Chilliwack, or a little over 400 KM (~260 miles). I'd say that Chilli is give-or-take the halfway mark between us, though your drive would likely be faster due to being able to cruise I-5 practically the whole way. The highway up to here is not nearly so wide and straight!


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## BobL (Nov 23, 2009)

Brmorgan said:


> I'm about 4.5 hours' drive north of Chilliwack, or a little over 400 KM (~260 miles). I'd say that Chilli is give-or-take the halfway mark between us, though your drive would likely be faster due to being able to cruise I-5 practically the whole way. The highway up to here is not nearly so wide and straight!



I-5 ! 20 years ago I used to live about 500 yards from I-5, but in SD!


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## Andrew96 (Nov 23, 2009)

I use greyhound all the time to ship stuff from Ontario...all the way to Victoria BC. My new to me 660 cost $38 and took 6 days for the 5000km trip. A couple of hours drive wouldn't cost much.


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## Can8ianTimber (Nov 23, 2009)

BobL said:


> I-5 ! 20 years ago I used to live about 500 yards from I-5, but in SD!



from SD to Australia???? Let me guess, you had to go somewhere where there was more interesting wood to mill up. 

BMorgan, Any more old growth up in your neck of the woods? What size of bars do you have for that 090 and what do you think of the power?


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## Brmorgan (Nov 23, 2009)

Well we don't have anything quite on the scale of the coastal region, but the old ones are still pretty big in some areas. Here's a pic I took of a friend standing in front of one of the bigger Douglas Firs I've seen fairly close to town:






That's about the upper limit of what I see locally. The Douglas Firs here grow a lot differently than the coastal ones - they do get big, but I'd say 150-175' is where they normally top out; also they generally don't grow as straight due to wind, dry conditions, fire damage, etc. Almost every big Fir around here will have some fire damage somewhere inside if you cut them apart. If I head an hour's drive East into the mountains, it fairly quickly turns to rainforest again just like the coast, with big Cedars & Hemlocks:











That's the same big Cedar in both pics. The 10-22mm wide-angle lens I had on the camera doesn't really put the tree into perspective, but it was the only way to get the entire thing in a picture, especially since I was alone and had to balance my camera on a tree branch to take it! In the first one, it's hard to tell but I'm standing probably 8 feet from the tree - couldn't get any closer without a springboard due to the huge butt swell - and I'm not much farther than that from the camera either, so that gives you an idea of how the wide-angle lens distorts things. The outhouse in the second pic is probably half the distance between myself and the tree, for reference. I estimated that one to be about 10' diameter, and I've seen some up there probably 15' or so but they're a fair hike in and I haven't been back since I've owned a camera. That cedar is at Quesnel Lake, which is the deepest and largest fjord lake in North America - it approaches 2000' deep. You pretty much feel like you're on the ocean on that lake, and the weather can match it too - I've seen waves approaching 8' during bad storms there.

As for the 090, the longest bar I have for it is a 33", which interestingly I found at an old cabin on the aforementioned lake a few years back. It was rusted to all heck, but after a good soak in oil and rust remover I was able to get the grooves cleaned out and the sprocked freed up and greased. Works fine now, though I still can't believe it knowing what it looked like when I pulled it out from under that cabin! There were a few more out there too, but they were even worse for rust and I haven't been back since to check them out again. I picked that thing up years before the 090, just for the heck of it at the time. 

The raw power it produces is incredible - it's like the Harley of the chainsaw world. It isn't the fastest anymore - an 880 or 3120 will beat it in many circumstances where pure torque isn't as critical - but if you need to pull a reeeeeally long bar with just one powerhead there isn't a much better way, except an 090 geardrive. And it's fun to run too - for a while - though earplugs are definitely mandatory even for short runs. I got respect for the old-timers who ran these all day long for months on end with no AV or hearing protection... I know a couple guys like that, and it definitely took its toll on them.

Here's my 090 with the 33" bar cutting a 28" Douglas Fir windfall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_6A7gD0i4 (embedding doesn't seem to want to work for me)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_V_6A7gD0i4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_V_6A7gD0i4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## BobL (Nov 23, 2009)

Can8ianTimber said:


> from SD to Australia???? Let me guess, you had to go somewhere where there was more interesting wood to mill up.



Nope, I was working at USCSD, Scripps Institution of Oceanography although I'm not an oceanographer, I only got into milling about 3 years ago.


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