# Tricks for large punky pumpkins



## sierratree (Aug 6, 2011)

Any tricks for dropping a 40", punky pumpkin 1/4 away from its lean? Don't really want to cut offside holding wood to pull it, and there might not be a great platform for standard wedges. Are there any super-wide wedges out there? Will also be using my bull rope, etc. Thanks much.


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## 2dogs (Aug 6, 2011)

What is a pumpkin?


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## sierratree (Aug 6, 2011)

*pumpkin*

an old,rotten, dead tree................no, not my wife...........


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## 2dogs (Aug 6, 2011)

sierratree said:


> an old,rotten, dead tree................no, not my wife...........


 
Got it!

One of the big problems with rotten trees is sometimes they don't tip over, they break apart and come down all around the stump. It you can, use a throw bag and set a rope up high and try to pull the tree over. Not likely with a 40" tree but maybe you can break the top off. Access to a tree jack or maybe a large bottle jack with top and bottom plates might help you out.

I would make a deep face cut use several wedges in the backcut. Keep them snug but don't pound them in. ALWAYS be looking up in case a limb breaks loose. You have to see the limb within a fraction of a second to avoid getting hit. A spotter can not help you fast enough!!!

If the tree is not too tall, like a broken staub, then an excavator might be able push it over or break it off. 

If you feel at all overwhelmed then please call in an experienced faller. Don't risk your life. BTW what kind of tree and where is it? I will be in the Sierras next week.


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## forestryworks (Aug 6, 2011)

That's a lot of snag if you don't have a lot of experience. Think twice before cutting. Clearly.


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## sierratree (Aug 6, 2011)

yep..................i always look up and never rely on a spotter.........usually, you can't hear him, anyway...too much going on.........i'll bore in and see what's inside. if too sketch, we'll just leave it............maybe hire a certified tree blaster.........just thought there was some kind of a super wide wedge to support punky wood.........no worries.........safety first....want to make it home each night..............


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## sierratree (Aug 6, 2011)

will keep looking up..........


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## hammerlogging (Aug 6, 2011)

That rope will serve you well. Get it high enough to get the leverage you need, but not so high you bust the top out. No hinge manipulation should be needed, or wanted.

Things get really easy if you get to have a rope in the tree. Be careful.


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## sierratree (Aug 6, 2011)

I'll post some pics when the deed is done. 







]


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## Gologit (Aug 6, 2011)

What kind of tree is it? If it's a pine snag use your oldest and least valuable bar. They'll sometimes just sit down on a bar with little or no warning. If you can, keep your powerhead a little ways out in the cut, especially when you're backing it up. If the tree jams your bar you'll have more room to get the powerhead off.

Wedges usually aren't much good in snags but some big wide wooden shims, tapered slightly and made from hardwood can sometimes help. Don't beat on them. Ever. Snags can 'chair on you, they can side split, they can slab out from any direction, and they can just plain come apart. I've seen some disintegrate and it gets real ugly real fast when that happens. Keep the bystanders away.

And...you might ask yourself if it really has to come down at all. Time, wind, and winter snow load usually take care of snags. Eventually.


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## sierratree (Aug 7, 2011)

It's a DF. Won't make any wrong moves............gonna go home at the end of the day..........


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## SawGarage (Aug 7, 2011)

I second the premade hardwood wedges if your needing something wide. I've used tapered hardwood ply scabs too... and 2 x lumber.....


report back....good luck.

40", if it's do-able, i'd consider a bottle jack too... with a LONG jackhandle... :msp_ohmy:


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## 056 kid (Aug 7, 2011)

If you possibly can. face it in a direction that you know it will fall. If you cant, cut slow, watch for movement, and proceed accordingly. .


the best advice your gonna get has already been given. .

one more thing, if the tree has any sound wood at all in it, it's likely to be on the outside of the tree. . .


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

056 kid said:


> If you possibly can. face it in a direction that you know it will fall.
> 
> one more thing, if the tree has any sound wood at all in it, it's likely to be on the outside of the tree. . .


 
Good advice there.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

Throwing rocks at it would be even better.:msp_tongue:


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## 056 kid (Aug 7, 2011)

do empty bottles count?


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

Only if you don't miss.


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## 056 kid (Aug 7, 2011)

I'll just tickle with the saw and keep my bottles for refunding. . If the wood breaks I'm sure it won't hurt anything!

I forgot how to throw a few years ago. .


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## forestryworks (Aug 7, 2011)

SawGarage said:


> I second the premade hardwood wedges if your needing something wide. I've used tapered hardwood ply scabs too... and 2 x lumber.....
> 
> 
> report back....good luck.
> ...


 
Silveys are better. Bottle jacks are more apt to get spit out.


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## forestryworks (Aug 7, 2011)

056 kid said:


> If you possibly can. face it in a direction that you know it will fall. If you cant, cut slow, watch for movement, and proceed accordingly. .
> 
> 
> the best advice your gonna get has already been given. .
> ...


 
True. Your first plan is to see if you can fall a snag in the direction it leans.



056 kid said:


> if the tree has any sound wood at all in it, it's likely to be on the outside of the tree. . .



Hey Kid, is that typical of the Doug-firs? 

When I did the hazard tree falling in OK, at least 95% of the pine snags I fell were rotten and all the good wood was in the middle.


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> Silveys are better. Bottle jacks are more apt to get spit out.


 
Yup. Bottle jacks are good for a _little_ lift but if you get in a situation where you need a _lot_ of lift they'll usually create more problems than they solve.

Plus, if the tree is punky cutting a good solid jack seat might not even be possible.


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## forestryworks (Aug 7, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yup. Bottle jacks are good for a _little_ lift but if you get in a situation where you need a _lot_ of lift they'll usually create more problems than they solve.
> 
> Plus, if the tree is punky cutting a good solid jack seat might not even be possible.


 
I'd suspect even if there was a solid spot of wood, a jack on a 40" diameter snag would create some bad mechanical stresses and send the thing slabbing off the stump around ya.


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## dave k (Aug 7, 2011)

Great advice in very few posts, just shows the depth of knowledge here.
I've sometimes wondered on a smallish dead stem with no real natural lean would there be any use in attaching a weight to the bull rope so you have a constant but light load to help it over ? the rope would be secured taught and the weight would keep it that way. I have far to much time on my jands today !!


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## John Ellison (Aug 7, 2011)

OP You did'nt say if you needed to fall it 90 deg. from the lean to make it easier to get to for firewood or if it gets away and falls into the lean it will destroy your house or? What kind of tree? Also there is punky and PUNKY? How much side lean? Head lean? These ? could make a big diff in how to proceed.


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## sierratree (Aug 7, 2011)

Got a head lean about 8'. Need to pull it to the side a little less 90 degrees. Tree about 80' tall. Like I said, haven't bored in yet, so don't know what's inside. Just need to give it a little persuasion to miss it's natural target.......pretty sure I'll use a bull rope at a strong point to help it around........will be looking up.......sop.....There's still the option of letting time take care of it, too. But would rather get it down and be done with it.......I'll be wearing my running shoes.....


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> I'd suspect even if there was a solid spot of wood, a jack on a 40" diameter snag would create some bad mechanical stresses and send the thing slabbing off the stump around ya.


 
That could happen.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

I am not a fan of using a bottle jack however (with top and bottom plates) it can provide gentle lift. I don't mean to say force the tree over but to use it, along with wedges, to provide lift that will not cause limbs to break off.

Of course a tree jack is much better.


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## Sport Faller (Aug 7, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> True. Your first plan is to see if you can fall a snag in the direction it leans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
most of the punky doug fir and larch around here that I've encountered might have a nice solid "shell" of outer wood when you could pretty much kick a hole in the middle


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## John Ellison (Aug 7, 2011)

If you have the means to set your line at 50' + you should be in good shape. A second line (not to pull, just guy) set at 90 deg. to your intended lay would help if the hinge wood is in bad shape.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah dead Douglass-firs will typically have that hard rind with the entire center turned to dust. Jeffery pines and Sugar pines will do the same thing in a dry area.


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## SawGarage (Aug 7, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> Silveys are better. Bottle jacks are more apt to get spit out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I guess it was late, yes, thinking more of a tree-jack, or a bottle with some GOOD top-bottom plates....bolt-on, or welded diamond plate for some good grip...

it would be nice if there was a bit of GOOD hinge wood... I'd be tempted to try a compressing dutchman, IF the bull rope wasn't really and option. but, a BIT of tension, or a winch on the line around another tree with a strap/snatch block would be a good setup. Course, all depends on HOW MUCH help you have available. Can't do 2-3 jobs, and be SAFE @ the same time...

Jay


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## madhatte (Aug 7, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> Hey Kid, is that typical of the Doug-firs?



Depends on the snag; in particular, how it died and how long ago. Butt and root rots will commonly leave a rind of sapwood in good condition with no solid heartwood. If the tree lost its top to wind or a top rot, the red crumbly rot and the beetles will work from the outside in, in which case the sapwood is mush but the heartwood is solid. You'll want to bore into the tree to figure out its structural integrity before committing to a plan.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Depends on the snag; in particular, how it died and how long ago. Butt and root rots will commonly leave a rind of sapwood in good condition with no solid heartwood. If the tree lost its top to wind or a top rot, the red crumbly rot and the beetles will work from the outside in, in which case the sapwood is mush but the heartwood is solid. You'll want to bore into the tree to figure out its structural integrity before committing to a plan.


 
Very good advice from a pro.


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## madhatte (Aug 7, 2011)

Thank yez, thank yez. It's all about being observant!


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## 056 kid (Aug 7, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> True. Your first plan is to see if you can fall a snag in the direction it leans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I noticed that with yellow pines back east, White pine was usually sound wood outside and rot or carpenter ants in the middle if there was rot. Hemlock sometimes had real dotey wood with the strong stuff right inside the bark. I have really no idea what Dougs are like:msp_rolleyes: Be interesting to see.


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## sierratree (Aug 7, 2011)

After it's on the ground, I'll post some close ups of the stump, etc., so you guys can see what's inside.......


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## RandyMac (Aug 7, 2011)

Some of the worst rotten snags are the true Firs, they tend to collapse as the bar approaches the hinge, trapping the bar, then falling where ever they want.


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## OregonSawyer (Aug 7, 2011)

Typically Firs that are punky decay from the inside out. Like this...







You can even see the different stages at the butt-end of this log. Hollow in the middle and becoming more sound the further out you get. 






With that said. Be safe and very alert. The tree in the top picture had about 40' of head-lean, turns out the 5" rind wasn't enough to hold it up


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## madhatte (Aug 7, 2011)

OregonSawyer said:


> Typically Firs that are punky decay from the inside out. Like this...



I see evidence of at least three fungi there. The center was originally attacked by the brown cubical rot, but when it died, the red crumbly rot took over. What likely actually killed the tree was the laminated root rot, which is evident in the remaining sapwood and the stain in the log on the mill. Note that the brown cubical rot seldom kills trees except by accident, the red crumbly rot is a decay fungus that only sets in after the tree is dead, and the laminated root rot can kill a healthy tree in a matter of weeks. Autopsying trees from the stumps and logs is essential in understanding the dynamics between trees and their associates beneath the soil; a healthy tree may show no evidence of disease hidden deep within the bole, while a dying tree may show symptoms of something other than what's killing it. The post-mortem is where all the pieces come together into a clear picture.


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## sierratree (Aug 7, 2011)

great pics...........40' of headlean? that's alot of headlean. that tree must have really been bent over.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

madhatte said:


> I see evidence of at least three fungi there. The center was originally attacked by the brown cubical rot, but when it died, the red crumbly rot took over. What likely actually killed the tree was the laminated root rot, which is evident in the remaining sapwood and the stain in the log on the mill. Note that the brown cubical rot seldom kills trees except by accident, the red crumbly rot is a decay fungus that only sets in after the tree is dead, and the laminated root rot can kill a healthy tree in a matter of weeks. Autopsying trees from the stumps and logs is essential in understanding the dynamics between trees and their associates beneath the soil; a healthy tree may show no evidence of disease hidden deep within the bole, while a dying tree may show symptoms of something other than what's killing it. The post-mortem is where all the pieces come together into a clear picture.


 
How can I tell the difference between brown cubicle rot, (called heart rot in redwoods) and red crumbly rot?


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## madhatte (Aug 7, 2011)

2dogs said:


> How can I tell the difference between brown cubicle rot, (called heart rot in redwoods) and red crumbly rot?



Sometimes it's tough. They can look and feel almost the same. Usually brown cubical is inside and red crumbly outside, but that's not always the case. Conks help some; the former is on the ground and thin, the latter is on the stem and thick. But, a lot of the time you won't have a conk conveniently located. Lots of things can be confused with others. You just have to sort of calibrate your eye to see the stuff needed to tell one from another. It takes practice.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

This one had a large buttress on the backside. I faced both trunks and back cut the front. Then I back cut the buttress and ran away bravely. It fell where I aimed it. Dern lucky.





No I am NOT standing in a river!


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## sierratree (Aug 9, 2011)

great photo....... but what's the coos bay cut? just face it where you want it and let it rip?


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## forestryworks (Aug 9, 2011)

sierratree said:


> great photo....... but what's the coos bay cut? just face it where you want it and let it rip?


 
Coos bay cut doesn't offer any directional control.


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2011)

Long Butt said:


> Only someone from Texas would be brazen (or STUPID) enough,to make such assertions.
> 
> Quite entetaining,should I be quizzed on the mix.



Then please explain how it works? The Coos Bay cut that is. Or might that be considered too productive?


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## hammerlogging (Aug 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> No I am NOT standing in a river!



Careful, you can get shocked doing that.


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## RandyMac (Aug 9, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> Careful, you can get shocked doing that.:msp_rolleyes:


 
Been there done that, caught the volts in a spot that I pulled the stitches outta the week before.
That saw was after me, I stuck the bottom spike in about an inch and a half, just above the knee.
I lost track of the Tetanus shots.


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2011)

Now, I ask a shocking question. How do you get shocked whilst sawing whilst standing in water? Is it worse wearing calks? I must know these things!


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## RandyMac (Aug 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> Now, I ask a shocking question. How do you get shocked whilst sawing whilst standing in water? Is it worse wearing calks? I must know these things!


 
I stuck a waterlogged knee under the rear handle for leverage, the gravel shifted under my boots (non-caulked) my leg slid off the handle and went right where the spark plug lives. It was quite a pop, McCulloch magnetos crank out the volts at full revs. The water level was right at my knees.


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## madhatte (Aug 9, 2011)

Fun fact: the dielectric constant of dry air is about 14,000 volts, so a coil has to crank at least that for a spark to jump the gap to ignite fuel. Even at a tiny current, that's enough to wake you up!


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## sierratree (Aug 9, 2011)

uh...............oh...........o.k. kinda like what we call around here, a "Reno Cut".


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## 2dogs (Aug 10, 2011)

Those last two pics of mine were supposed to go in another thread. If you were wondering what they had to do with the subject at hand the answer is, nothing at all. I'm just a doof.


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## RandyMac (Aug 10, 2011)

Well, they weren't weeds.


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## 2dogs (Aug 10, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Well, they weren't weeds.


 
That one made me laugh.

I will on the current project for about 4 weeks and I won't cut one tree bigger than 12" DBH. This is cutting weeds.


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## sierratree (Sep 1, 2011)

Well......finally went back and dropped the tree.............had more good wood in it than I thought it would. Bored in and sure enough, good center wood. Used some rigging to pull it away from a nearby asset ( footbridge). Just kept it old school, and over she went......


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