# New to this site, and professional tree work



## GottaCut (Jul 1, 2007)

Well it sure is nice to find a site like this, I've been a member over at Lawnsite for a while and I just saw a post over there with this address in it. A little about myself, I been doing lawn care and such for a bit over 5 years now with a random tree job thrown in here and there the first couple of those years. In the beginning of my second year I got to do a big job and I fell in love with tree work. In retrospect I did a horrible job that I've learned any decent tree trimmer would never want there name on, I topped two big locusts. Took off about the top 15' (they were probably 55' to begin with). Before I get flamed I should mention that I work for someone, not myself. Now of course the things look terrible with crazy water sprouts all over.
That leads me to my first question, how much of the tree's should I clean out to try and get them looking better?
Also I have never climbed using ropes or any other gear, I just placed an order for 120' x.5" climbing line, Klein adjustable gaffs, Weaver extra wide back saddle, and a flip line with microscender. I think learning to use everything will be easy enough, I also have the "Tree Climbers Companion", but using the rope to climb is something that I think will be a bit more tricky. Any suggestions for beginner methods to use a rope to get around in a tree with? Any videos I can order? Thanks guys, I hope to be as knowledgeable as some of you whose posts I've read!


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## kennertree (Jul 1, 2007)

Go to the isa website and order An Illustrated Guide to Pruning by Edward F. Gilman. It will teach ya all you need to know about pruning.


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## joesawer (Jul 2, 2007)

Welcome.
I wish this site had been avaliable to me when I first started.


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## SilentElk (Jul 2, 2007)

Kenner had some good advice. Also, your book 'Tree Climbers Companion' is an excellent book and will tell you alot about climbing and such. However, you might stop and watch a tree company in action if you happen to see one of them working. Watch how they do things. There is ton of tricks of the trade.

Also, the gaffs are very useful but you should consider them for removals only. Gaffs tend to leave unsightly bad marks/gouges in the bark and are often a sign of a lesser tree trimmer on a trim.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jul 2, 2007)

You wanna buy a book and some videos and then go out and start working in a tree? Are you mad? This isn’t a trade that you can self teach, you don’t know what’s safe and what isn’t, therefore you are going to do many unsafe things while learning on your own. How do you know the difference between a safe tie in point and an unsafe one, what if that TIP breaks out while you are up there swinging around? What if the whole *tree breaks apart and crashes down on top of you*? It can happen, and then you are going to die a painful, unhappy, stupid *death*, that or be confined to a *wheelchair* for the rest of your life. The only way to become a qualified tree worker is through an apprenticeship, 3 to 5 years, and that is only the basics. Go and hire on with a good tree company before you kill yourself.

Kennertree, Joesawer, and SilentElk; the three of you know better than to encourage that sort of thing. Lets all go over to accidents and injuries for a while and refresh ourselves. Click *HERE:blob6: * if you dare.


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

Gaffs are a great investment, but are ONLY TO BE USED ON REMOVALS!!!!!!

Never use gaffs on a tree that will be left standing.

The best way to get used to climbing with ropes is low and slow. Only go up as far as you are comfortable to fall from.

Try and get a recreaional climb going in your area with some more experienced climbers.

Read as much as you can here and ask questions.


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## kennertree (Jul 2, 2007)

CoreyTMorine said:


> You wanna buy a book and some videos and then go out and start working in a tree? Are you mad? This isn’t a trade that you can self teach, you don’t know what’s safe and what isn’t, therefore you are going to do many unsafe things while learning on your own. How do you know the difference between a safe tie in point and an unsafe one, what if that TIP breaks out while you are up there swinging around? What if the whole *tree breaks apart and crashes down on top of you*? It can happen, and then you are going to die a painful, unhappy, stupid *death*, that or be confined to a *wheelchair* for the rest of your life. The only way to become a qualified tree worker is through an apprenticeship, 3 to 5 years, and that is only the basics. Go and hire on with a good tree company before you kill yourself.
> 
> Kennertree, Joesawer, and SilentElk; the three of you know better than to encourage that sort of thing. Lets all go over to accidents and injuries for a while and refresh ourselves. Click *HERE:blob6: * if you dare.



I was just answering in regards of proper pruning techniques, climbing is another thing. Its best to get some form of training, either working for a company or taking some arbormaster traing courses.


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## Sprig (Jul 2, 2007)

Some excellent points gents.
I think it is great advice to go and find a climbing group to learn the basic ropes, they will have the patience to teach you the basics and won't be worried about yer wages ect.. Though a slightly different ball of wax than removal climbing it'll give you some practicle height and knot experience that you can carry with you into your next adventure. Find a good co. with people you get along with and are willing to pass on their knowlege would be the next big step imho.
Good luck, work safe, and welcome to the site!!



Serge


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

I advise working for a tree service first, but if you are determined to learn on your own, here goes. Spurs/gaffs are the safer way to climb, there was a poll taken on this site by someone who is against my evil ways of spurring every tree and spurs won out as the safest. So, be safe, climb with spurs and a steelcore, when you get comfortable in the trees using a chainsaw, then read up on spurless climbing and do it, I guess.


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> I advise working for a tree service first, but if you are determined to learn on your own, here goes. Spurs/gaffs are the safer way to climb, there was a poll taken on this site by someone who is against my evil ways of spurring every tree and spurs won out as the safest. So, be safe, climb with spurs and a steelcore, when you get comfortable in the trees using a chainsaw, then read up on spurless climbing and do it, I guess.



your such a debbie downer! Every post is against proper tree work and advanced climbing techniques.

yes hooks are the safest way to generally climb a tree. They are also the worst FOR the tree.

Just because you could careless about trees, and are too lazy to learn how o climb without hooks doesnt mean you should go suggesting it to every other person trying to learn.

Your a hack, and dont care about trees, I am embarassed to say you are a fellow tree worker!

Stop being so negative, admit that hooks are bad for a tree and that your too lazy to learn how to climb without them! :censored:


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## jomoco (Jul 2, 2007)

*Professional Advice*



clearance said:


> I advise working for a tree service first, but if you are determined to learn on your own, here goes. Spurs/gaffs are the safer way to climb, there was a poll taken on this site by someone who is against my evil ways of spurring every tree and spurs won out as the safest. So, be safe, climb with spurs and a steelcore, when you get comfortable in the trees using a chainsaw, then read up on spurless climbing and do it, I guess.



Hey there GottaCut,

Please bear in mind that some of the advice you may receive from some well intentioned guys on this site will in reality back fire on you in the professional arborist arena.

No professional arborist organization that I'm aware of advises or recommends the use of gaffs to prune any live tree. There are thousands of beginning climbers that have successfully been trained to prune to industry standards without the use of gaffs, bear that in mind and you'll go far as a professional, it's well worth the effort.

I see you're in the Chicago area. John Hendricksen owns a very large reputable professional tree service there called The Care of Trees. Look in your yellow pages and give that outfit a call. I've met John and he's a great guy that puts proper training and education foremost in his company. It would be an excellent place to get started if you want to make a career of arboriculture.

Best of luck,

jomoco


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> your such a debbie downer! Every post is against proper tree work and advanced climbing techniques.
> 
> yes hooks are the safest way to generally climb a tree. They are also the worst FOR the tree.
> 
> ...



Every post? I think not. I care about myself first and also this guy before any tree, trees come third, people, powerlines/houses and then trees. Every utility guy in this province climbs with spurs, always, spurless climbing is for people climbing thin barked high asthetic value specimen trees here, thats it. Maybe hooks are bad for trees, so what, I have never seen one killed from spurs and I have climbed and trimmed thousands of them around powerlines, many of which had been climbed before with spurs and will be climbed again with spurs. This guy seems determined to climb regardless of good advice, I want to see him live. I am going to refrain from insulting you B.B., all I have to do is look at video of guys humping up trees and I laugh.


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> Every post? I think not. I care about myself first and also this guy before any tree, trees come third, people, powerlines/houses and then trees. Every utility guy in this province climbs with spurs, always, spurless climbing is for people climbing thin barked high asthetic value specimen trees here, thats it. Maybe hooks are bad for trees, so what, I have never seen one killed from spurs and I have climbed and trimmed thousands of them around powerlines, many of which had been climbed before with spurs and will be climbed again with spurs. This guy seems determined to climb regardless of good advice, I want to see him live. I am going to refrain from insulting you B.B., all I have to do is look at video of guys humping up trees and I laugh.



You dont climb and "high value" species? I consider every tree a high value. especially when you think about a trees importance and value to our existance. Spurs DO kill trees thats why NO Arborist organization will endorse the use of them while pruning.

You laugh because your a JOKE!

You are too lazy, and could careless what others in your trade think of you to learn how to climb without hooks. Go ahead and insult me, if that makes you feel better about you lack of climing ability.


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> You dont climb and "high value" species? I consider every tree a high value. especially when you think about a trees importance and value to our existance. Spurs DO kill trees thats why NO Arborist organization will endorse the use of them while pruning.
> 
> You laugh because your a JOKE!
> 
> You are too lazy, and could careless what others in your trade think of you to learn how to climb without hooks. Go ahead and insult me, if that makes you feel better about you lack of climing ability.



High value trees to me are trees that go on the truck, old growth red cedar, clear Doug. fir, thats high value. I mean high asthetic value (that means valuable to look at) trees. I guess we have so many trees here, so many thick barked ones that it don't matter, we don't get our panties in a knot about them like some of you guys here. Now lazy is the wrong word, ignorant would be a better choice for you to use. There are different types of climbing ability, I have no desire to do what you do, although I could if I really had to. But I can cut down or trim big scary trees hanging over high voltage lines quickly, rigging stuff as little as possible, can you?


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> High value trees to me are trees that go on the truck, old growth red cedar, clear Doug. fir, thats high value. I mean high asthetic value (that means valuable to look at) trees. I guess we have so many trees here, so many thick barked ones that it don't matter, we don't get our panties in a knot about them like some of you guys here. Now lazy is the wrong word, ignorant would be a better choice for you to use. There are different types of climbing ability, I have no desire to do what you do, although I could if I really had to. But I can cut down or trim big scary trees hanging over high voltage lines quickly, rigging stuff as little as possible, can you?



Yes I can! I was a linesamn for 5 years before I got sick of whiny politcal unions. I trimmed around 23kv for 1.5 years. Climbed everyone that needed to be climbed. And only used hooks on the ones that were to be REMOVED.

Laziness often times is the most clear sign of ignorance.

Hence you are lazy/Ignorant. I say Ignorant with a capital I, meaning an ignoramus....ignoramus \ig-nuh-RAY-mus\, noun:
An ignorant person; a dunce


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> Yes I can! I was a linesamn for 5 years before I got sick of whiny politcal unions. I trimmed around 23kv for 1.5 years. Climbed everyone that needed to be climbed. And only used hooks on the ones that were to be REMOVED.
> 
> Laziness often times is the most clear sign of ignorance.
> 
> ...



I am glad to hear that you are considering my correction of your language. So a guy that works his ass of in spurs is lazy, but some spurless dude who sits in the truck all day isn't? If I was like some people on this site I would go to the mods for your clear violation of the rules. If I said the same to you people would make sure I was banned for a bit, but never mind, I can take it. I wish you well B.B., have fun, stay safe.


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## GottaCut (Jul 2, 2007)

Hey guys *WHOA* thanks for hijacking my thread! I didnt ask for advice on whether or not to use spikes for every climb, or how damaging it is to trees. Just to insert my own opinion on that subject I will only use spikes for removals, I do know that much. I should also say I took an arborist workshop over the winter, not that I am suddenly a pro but I did walk away much more prepared for this line of work. I am not ignorant to this line of work I do know the basics.

I am not _"determined to climb regardless of good advice"_ as someone put it. That was a completely unfounded statement. I am determined to climb putting good advice to use. Ideally I would get a job with a pro tree service and learn from a pro, however that would put me taking a cut in pay and I am a husband and father of three with to much depending on my income already.

Guys, I know to be safe, I will take my time and climb recreationally in my own backyard first. I'm not the type of person to use my TIP around any old branch and just hope for the best. I just want to put this equipment to best (safest and efficient use). 

Thanks for all the replies, hey what about the problem with the locusts I mentioned?


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> I am glad to hear that you are considering my correction of your language. So a guy that works his ass of in spurs is lazy, but some spurless dude who sits in the truck all day isn't? If I was like some people on this site I would go to the mods for your clear violation of the rules. If I said the same to you people would make sure I was banned for a bit, but never mind, I can take it. I wish you well B.B., have fun, stay safe.



I never said guys who climb all day doing removals are lazy and I never said that guys who prune without hooks sit in a truck all day.....seems like you answered the question you WISHED I asked not the question/comment that was presented.

I never said you were lazy in terms of working. I am saying you are lazy in your learning, for climbing with spikes and not wanting to learn any other way.

Ill just call you a hack from now on!

What are you going to have me banned for? I didn't bring allegations out about you with doubtful origins, did I? This is all stuff that YOU PROUDLY present to the people on this forum. You know it is wrong yet you still brag about it. You are a disgrace to this industry as well as BC Hydro.

I remember you posting a while back that we should call BC Hydro and complain about you......whats the name and number of the rep for BC Hydro that you report to? Actually whats his name and what town/city is the office in that he works out of? I will gladly call the office and be connected to him or someone higher and make my feeling VERY well known......is this offer still on the table?


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## jomoco (Jul 2, 2007)

*There's a certain irony at work here.....*



clearance said:


> High value trees to me are trees that go on the truck, old growth red cedar, clear Doug. fir, thats high value. I mean high asthetic value (that means valuable to look at) trees. I guess we have so many trees here, so many thick barked ones that it don't matter, we don't get our panties in a knot about them like some of you guys here. Now lazy is the wrong word, ignorant would be a better choice for you to use. There are different types of climbing ability, I have no desire to do what you do, although I could if I really had to. But I can cut down or trim big scary trees hanging over high voltage lines quickly, rigging stuff as little as possible, can you?



Why you insist on continuing to advise newbies that are far outside the very thick barked trees of the pacific northwest area is becoming a little more evident now, either you're truly frightened by the thought of climbing trees without gaffs, or you are contemptuous of trees in general.

As I've stated before, my only beef with you is when you render your PNW spike every tree mind set advice to newbies seeking professional counsel that are nowhere near the PNW, ( Pacific North West )

But there's also a certain irony in your stated opinions. You see I've been up in the PNW quite recently, and I noticed something. While it may be true that climbing small to medium thick barked Redwoods, Firs, etc, is easier wearing gaffs, it is not true of the big dogs with a dbh over say 5-6 foot, these magnificent trees are a PITA to climb with gaffs and a lanyard, the stubs, getting a wire core lanyard that long to flip up that huge trunk is an art in itself! 

No, those big dogs are far easier to climb with no gaffs, in the traditional manner, it's far faster and safer to shoot a line into the tree, set your climbing line, then ascend with which ever of the many methods available that you're most familiar and comfortable with.

I know this to be true, and suspect that you do as well.

So let's call a truce, and only give advice to newbies that will further their best interests as arborists in their locations throughout the world, that we as professionals have experience with or knowledge of.

I have tremendous respect and admiration for the men that work the giant trees of the PNW because I"ve been there and done that, and it was certainly no picanick.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

GottaCut said:


> Hey guys *WHOA* thanks for hijacking my thread! I didnt ask for advice on whether or not to use spikes for every climb, or how damaging it is to trees. Just to insert my own opinion on that subject I will only use spikes for removals, I do know that much. I should also say I took an arborist workshop over the winter, not that I am suddenly a pro but I did walk away much more prepared for this line of work. I am not ignorant to this line of work I do know the basics.
> 
> I am not _"determined to climb regardless of good advice"_ as someone put it. That was a completely unfounded statement. I am determined to climb putting good advice to use. Ideally I would get a job with a pro tree service and learn from a pro, however that would put me taking a cut in pay and I am a husband and father of three with to much depending on my income already.
> 
> ...



I apologize for hijacking.

In answer to your first question..........
Take out any co-dominant stems with included bark and bad junctures.
Take out any branches that are crossing, rubbing, or leaning on one another.
Take out all deadwood within reason.....your not going to get EVERY piece out!
Take out any suckers with bad growth patterns, or that will cause problems in the near future
ONLY remove 1/3 of the foliage during pruning at the most. If there are no major problems just try to open the canopy to allow light to pass through and allow air to freely circulate around and THROUGH the tree.

Hope this help.

Pick up some of Dr. Alex Shigos books....the godfather of modern pruning techniques and knowledge of how trees really work.


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> I never said guys who climb all day doing removals are lazy and I never said that guys who prune without hooks sit in a truck all day.....seems like you answered the question you WISHED I asked not the question/comment that was presented.
> 
> I never said you were lazy in terms of working. I am saying you are lazy in your learning, for climbing with spikes and not wanting to learn any other way.
> 
> ...



BB, what the hell is wrong with you? I am not going to have you banned, I would never think about it, read what I say before you spew. Now, about B.C. Hydro, I never once said anyone should complain to them about me, they like me, I produce. What I said was "why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA" seeing as how ALL the utility guys that climb for them use spurs, ALL the time. All the Hydro vegatation managers are ISA certified, they see guys climb with spurs all the time, I figure that B.C. Hydro just uses the ISA name so people will think they are competent. I would love to see them leave the ISA, or the ISA kick them out for breaking the "rules". The hypocrisy makes me puke. Numbers for them, in a box somewhere. But it should be very easy to contact them on the 'net, they have a big website. When I posted the numbers before, Tom Dunlap and others cam up with reasons why they couldn't call. I figure it was because Hydro and the ISA are connected, they didn't want to rock the boat. I will not give you the number of the guy I report to, he asked me not to give it out to propblem customers. But I am sure you could go way over his head at B.C. Hydro. Hey, I looked in boxes, here you go, Grant Baxter, Manager, Vegetation Maintenence 604 543 1550, go cry to him, good luck.


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> BB, what the hell is wrong with you? I am not going to have you banned, I would never think about it, read what I say before you spew. Now, about B.C. Hydro, I never once said anyone should complain to them about me, they like me, I produce. What I said was "why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA" seeing as how ALL the utility guys that climb for them use spurs, ALL the time. All the Hydro vegatation managers are ISA certified, they see guys climb with spurs all the time, I figure that B.C. Hydro just uses the ISA name so people will think they are competent. I would love to see them leave the ISA, or the ISA kick them out for breaking the "rules". The hypocrisy makes me puke. Numbers for them, in a box somewhere. But it should be very easy to contact them on the 'net, they have a big website. When I posted the numbers before, Tom Dunlap and others cam up with reasons why they couldn't call. I figure it was because Hydro and the ISA are connected, they didn't want to rock the boat. I will not give you the number of the guy I report to, he asked me not to give it out to propblem customers. But I am sure you could go way over his head at B.C. Hydro. Hey, I looked in boxes, here you go, Grant Baxter, Manager, Vegetation Maintenence 604 543 1550, go cry to him, good luck.




Maybe I am coming off as crying....but for good reason. 

Its not fair to us who follow the rules/regs. set before us, take pride in our work and try to educate everyone we speak to about proper tree care, to have a person like you represent us and give advice.

*Ill call it a truce *but try in the future to refrain from giving advice to people, especially green beans, about climing/tree work that you KNOW isnt the proper way to go about doing things.....deal?


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> Maybe I am coming off as crying....but for good reason.
> 
> Its not fair to us who follow the rules/regs. set before us, take pride in our work and try to educate everyone we speak to about proper tree care, to have a person like you represent us and give advice.
> 
> *Ill call it a truce *but try in the future to refrain from giving advice to people, especially green beans, about climing/tree work that you KNOW isnt the proper way to go about doing things.....deal?



If you will call that guy up, like no one else here has and ask him about us climbing with spurs, while they are ISA members, sure. I do climb with spurs, but I do make proper cuts, not flush cuts, no stubs. I do advise people to have me windfirm trees instead of topping them, I only agree in topping for a good view or a powerline. So, I am not a total hack.


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> If you will call that guy up, like no one else here has and ask him about us climbing with spurs, while they are ISA members, sure. I do climb with spurs, but I do make proper cuts, not flush cuts, no stubs. I do advise people to have me windfirm trees instead of topping them, I only agree in topping for a good view or a powerline. So, I am not a total hack.



I will call him tomorrow..........just be sure this is what you want becaus if need be I will dierect him to this site for proof of his guys breaking ISA rules.

If you do not want me to call for fear of reprecussions, I will honor your request.


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## clearance (Jul 2, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> I will call him tomorrow..........just be sure this is what you want becaus if need be I will dierect him to this site for proof of his guys breaking ISA rules.
> 
> If you do not want me to call for fear of reprecussions, I will honor your request.



Call him up, let the chips fall where they may. It really bothers me when BS like this goes on, if you are an ISA member then do as they ISA says. If you are a cop, uphold the law. If you are a Christian, do as the Bible tells you. If the guy has a problem with me, get him to join this site and send me a pm. An explanation, B.C. Hydro does not do treework themselves, they sub it out to contractors who they supervise in every way possible. And he does know, they all know, I have never heard of any one them questioning it. If they tried that spurless crap on me I would walk, along with lots of guys, including guys from Asplundh and Davey, I'm sure.


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## RedlineIt (Jul 2, 2007)

Jomoco,

I've spurred up some fat Dougs. No sense flipping up, just spur up in a spiral, keeping it snug, advance what you can as you go. Stubs an whatnot you get as you spiral the stem. You really can't fall anywhere untill you get to the point where you CAN flip your lanyard. Sounds slow, but if we are standing at the bottom ten foot deep in salal, slash or prize-winning rhodos, unless you ace that shot, I'll beat you to the top more often than not.

Clearance,

Pal, you have to get over it. Ropes are not gay and besides, body thrusting is a very limited use technique. I was on a job at an elementary school taking storm damage out of some firs, had an entire fourth-grade class lined up on the soccer pitch touch line watching. I pitched a throw ball in the tree to set a second TIP and heard one kid say, "Look, He climbs like Spiderman!"
That's cool enough for me.

GottaCut,

Sorry it got derailed, but these things happen.

You did not mention whether it was Gleditsia or Robinia. Both get called Locust in various parts of the country. They react differently. I would take a look at how it is responding, take ownership of the cuts you have already made and try to train what is left in a way that suits A) the homeowner, because he started it, and has his own needs, B) The tree and it's desire to have a central lead, and C) Your own desire to revisit what you've created and the lesser desire to profit and learn from your previous work.

Get this done, and you are well on your way to being a true tree care professional. 


RedlineIt


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## BostonBull (Jul 3, 2007)

I spoke with grant today. He hasn't had anything to do with BC Hydro or the vegetation management program in 1.5 years! he is retired!

I was forwarded to Brian Fisher. I spoke to him at length about the issue and he says that once in a while a ROW guy will sneak up with hooks on. He also agrees that climbing big old growth trees is easier without spikes as you basically need two guys to help flip each others lines up the backside of the tree. He says that he has investigated this issue, and CLEARANCE specifically, numerous times over the last two years. He said each time he gets the phone calls he goes out to all the subs and asks around and NOONE has the balls to own up to being CLEARANCE. He thinks CLEARANCE is a angry little man who was turned down or fired from BC Hydro and since BC Hydro is such a big co. they are an easy target.
Brian also tells me that spikes aren't even allowed on the trucks who do backyard/residential type utility climbing even on REMOVALS!!! He said only advanced climbing methods are acceptable where the public may see/come in contact with the trimmers.

SO............Clearance whats the next step? Wanna tell us your real name and we'll really get the ball rolling on you being a hack trimmer?

Brian Fisher told me to let everyone know he would be more than happy to answer any questions on BC Hydros practices while trimming on his office line @ 1-250-755-4722


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## DonnyO (Jul 3, 2007)

*ladies, ladies, ladies............*

You guys are too much. 

I think that mr. clearance forgets that this is called ARBORIST SITE!!!!!

I must also say that I have always doubted clearance as a legit profile on this board but I do enjoy his posts.opcorn:


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## moss (Jul 3, 2007)

GottaCut said:


> Thanks for all the replies, hey what about the problem with the locusts I mentioned?



Any chance you can post photos of the overall tree to show what's going on and also close-ups of bark and leaves so we can ID? Black and Honey Locust are completely different in structure and habit so the advice can't be generic I don't think. I know that Honey Locust does not handle hard pruning well, I've seen what happens, a hard topping to a major limb on a mature tree can cause dieback of the limb right back to the main trunk over a couple of years period, and the epicormics (water sprouts) can be a symptom of an ongoing dieback process. Honey Locust seems to cut off circulation to limbs pretty quickly if the leaves don't produce (and they can't if they're not there). I don't know Black Locust as well for what happens in hard pruning.

What would Arborist site do without Clearance to stand up for spur climbing? It's a dirty job but someone has to do it 
-moss


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## RedlineIt (Jul 3, 2007)

*Man, I wish this was not happening in Gottacut's thread...*

Clearance is legit, no question, he posted in the employment forum for a job windfirming in B.C. I PM'd him, his contact knew of him, valued him, (no, I'm not revealing names) but just as the contract was coming up, I was scheduled for some long awaited corrective surgery and I decided to stay in town and hit my long-time current employer with my rehab tab.

Also, I think clearance is out of ROW for Hydro. I could be wrong, but that's what I've picked up on my limited time I can spend here.

And finally, Boston Bull, this Brian Fisher is either clueless or FOS and an excellent BS'er. The crews that do back-yard work aren't allowed to even have spurs on the truck? ROFL, bumping the lamp off the coffee table and scaring the dog.

I can show Brian Fisher NUMEROUS back-yard trees his crews have done with spurs. It's one reason I have never doubted what Clearance has to say about B.C. Hydro ROW work.

A specific example springs to mind. I was called to do a house clearance prune on a pretty little purple Beech. Didn't even bother to get the throw bag out, first branch at 4 feet and excellent radial spacing all the way up, the type of tree I would not have been able to resist climbing when I was nine-years-old. Easy peasy climb.

But what's this! Spur marks!? Who would spur this tree? Who would HAVE to spur this tree!!? I look up again and there they are, High tension lines running 30' above this far from mature Beech. Ah, the B.C. Hydro guys, if it's not a tree, it can't be spurred.

When I sprinted up to set my TIP, I looked at the reduction cuts. Preventative, minimalistic and totally ISA and Shigo aprovable. CODITing rather nicely, shame about the spur holes.

When I was done with the house clearance pruning, I talked to the homeowner about the future of the Beech, (we also had some contorted hazel pruning and some Doug fir deadwood to do, good client,) I recommended that we be contacted to pre-empt Hydro and their persistant use of spurs.

---------------

One last and post-final thing, If Brian Fisher thinks he can blow enough smoke to have you believe that he is out there asking crews who clearance is, please remember that British Columbia is half again the size of Texas and none of this territory is flat or without trees! His chances of running into Clearance, (if he does indeed still contract for B.C. Hydro) are so diminishingly small that his phone should run a laugh track.

SOMEONES Blowing smoke, I prefer to believe it's Fisher.



RedlineIt


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## BostonBull (Jul 3, 2007)

If this is all true then we should ALL call Brian Fisher and tell him hes a liar, nd get BC Hydro to change their ways. Thye have 300+!! Trimmers working for them.........


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## senechal (Jul 3, 2007)

For the sake of professionalism, some basic protocol is needed to *promote the profession* rather than a series of worst-case scenarios and personal attacks intended to fear-monger anyone leaning in the direction of arboriculture into thinking otherwise. 

Yes, an arborist is an excellent career choice. 
Yes arborists do take themselves very seriously and you should respect the amount of experience out there, recognizing that it is a running faucet of valuable information that could prevent a life-threatening accident on your worksite. 
Yes, you should look into full time education as well as any number of references both video and literature, and of course you should seek an apprenticeship with a company in your area that is committed to excellence and adheres to ISA standards.


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## RedlineIt (Jul 3, 2007)

BB:

What should I tell Fisher he's lieing about, the spurring thing or that he's out there hunting down that aberrant bastid clearance?

Both are equally laughable, you got took good.


RedlineIt.


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## clearance (Jul 3, 2007)

First of all Redline, thank you very much for your support (not of my climbing ways of course), but of me being legit. B.B., I have never talked to Brian Fisher, but I will. So we will see, as I have said here, many times, all utility guys who climb for B.C. Hydro climb with spurs, always. So, either what you say is true, a fabrication, or Mr. Fisher is being extremely economical with the truth. And the truth, as Winston Churchill was fond of saying, is barely out of bed by the time a lie has made it around the world. On further reflection, B.B., if Mr. Fisher has been searching for me, why didn't he join this site and p.m. me? Or, find me by using clues to who I am in the many posts I have left here. Jim Rockford he's not, if what you say is true.


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## jomoco (Jul 4, 2007)

*The art of negotiation is compromise*



clearance said:


> First of all Redline, thank you very much for your support (not of my climbing ways of course), but of me being legit. B.B., I have never talked to Brian Fisher, but I will. So we will see, as I have said here, many times, all utility guys who climb for B.C. Hydro climb with spurs, always. So, either what you say is true, a fabrication, or Mr. Fisher is being extremely economical with the truth. And the truth, as Winston Churchill was fond of saying, is barely out of bed by the time a lie has made it around the world. On further reflection, B.B., if Mr. Fisher has been searching for me, why didn't he join this site and p.m. me? Or, find me by using clues to who I am in the many posts I have left here. Jim Rockford he's not, if what you say is true.



It seems like a compromise is called for here in that there is some degree of practical truth in what Clearance's work practices are for his location. The different varieties of conifers he works are capable of withstanding the gaff damage inflicted on them because of their extremely thick bark. And line clearance companies like any other company want to make money in a competitive market, and that means high production rates. 

Another aspect of this is safety, and even here in SoCal if a company owner feels his climbers are incapable of climbing big eucs without gaffs, he faces a moral dilemna by insisting they abide by ANSI or ISA standards when doing so may result in injury and the resulting comp claims.

I myself, like many others have spent alot of money time and effort learning how to prune any and all trees properly to standard or better, and like many others take great pride in my work practices.

But the line between professional pride and practical safety and profits often get blurred for many reasons. And while I stubbornly insist on doing it right or not at all, I've noticed that the number of clients willing to pay for top notch proper pruning is slowly shrinking as the number of cheap labor hack companies grow. This is the primary reason I chose to become a hazard takedown specialist, but you'd be surprised at how many cheap labor amateurs with more balls than brains get killed here in SoCal trying to muscle into this most dangerous specialty, lots of dead or mangled amateurs here in the last few years.

The main point I'm trying to make is that professional tree services are basicly under an assault from cheap labor throughout the whole country, it is more important than ever that proper professional standards are emphasized and upheld. And for those that have to fudge these professional standards for whatever reasons, for gods sake keep quiet about it, then strive to improve through reading, training, physical conditioning or whatever it takes to get up to snuff and still make it safely home at the end of the day with some bacon for the family.

This can be an extremely rewarding profession, let's try and keep it that way.

Work safe,

jomoco


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## clearance (Jul 5, 2007)

I haven't called this guy yet, but I will. Now, to be more clear, everthing gets climbed with spurs, not just the conifers, alders, maples, birches, cottonwoods as well. This topic has been on my mind, I will not let it go. Stay tuned.


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## clearance (Jul 11, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> I spoke with grant today. He hasn't had anything to do with BC Hydro or the vegetation management program in 1.5 years! he is retired!
> 
> I was forwarded to Brian Fisher. I spoke to him at length about the issue and he says that once in a while a ROW guy will sneak up with hooks on. He also agrees that climbing big old growth trees is easier without spikes as you basically need two guys to help flip each others lines up the backside of the tree. He says that he has investigated this issue, and CLEARANCE specifically, numerous times over the last two years. He said each time he gets the phone calls he goes out to all the subs and asks around and NOONE has the balls to own up to being CLEARANCE. He thinks CLEARANCE is a angry little man who was turned down or fired from BC Hydro and since BC Hydro is such a big co. they are an easy target.
> Brian also tells me that spikes aren't even allowed on the trucks who do backyard/residential type utility climbing even on REMOVALS!!! He said only advanced climbing methods are acceptable where the public may see/come in contact with the trimmers.
> ...



Alright Boston Bull, and everyone else, here we go. I finally spoke to Brian Fisher on the phone, yesterday, July 10, after e-mailing him with my information so he would know exactly who I was. As I told him, and will now tell you, and anyone else who doubts my word, my name is Jim Barber, my certificate of qualification (Province of British Columbia, Industry Training Authority) in the trade of utility arborist is numbered 00107-TT-04, my power system safety protection authorization ( British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority) number is 9007340. After your post quoted here I was stunned that man of Mr. Fishers stature in the utility vegetation world would tell someone such B.S., I had a friend call him up with the number you supplied and she spoke to him. He told her pretty much what he told you, and also said I posted when I was drunk, that he had searched in B.C. Hydro for me as "Clarence" and that he couldn't even sue me because he didin't know who I was. He sent me an e-mail asking where I was working and who I work for. I called him yesterday and was to the point and blunt with him. I first asked him about this spurless climbing b.s., I told him I had never climbed spurless, never seen it done, and never heard of a c.u.a. (certified utility arborist) doing it for B.C. Hydro. He replied that in some backyards in Victoria (Provincial capital, on Vancouver Island) trees are spurless climbed. A pretty weak and lame answer, even if it is true, some backyards in one city in a huge province? I asked him if he knew about Arboristsite and if he had talked to an American fellow from that site, he said he had but denied insulting me. He played dumb, but he tone of his voice, which had changed from being deep and confident at the very beginning of our conversation to a higher pitch and faster delivery told me he was lying, I believe you as to what he said to you B.B.. He said that "we encourage proper arboricultural practices, such as spurless climbing thin barked trees" Really, never heard of it. He was angry with me, he was caught lying and called on it, obviously not used to being spoken to like that at all. He kept using the phrase "we use proper practices doing treework at B.C. Hydro", I took issue with that as well and told him to quit saying "we", he doesn't climb, isn't a c.u.a., just a powerfull manager at B.C. Hydro who can probably make things difficult for me. He also told me that he had been in contact with Tom Dunlap, which I find amusing, since Tom didn't share that with us here, but rather said it wasn't up to him to police the I.S.A. or to call people across different time zones, meaning B.C. Hydro. All the while appraising Brian Fisher of me, no doubt. Near the end of our conversation, he told me I was trashing B.C. Hydro (not true at all), and I asked him, basically "so what are you going do about it, take away my p.s.s.p.?" That would end my employment, as you need a valid p.s.s.p. number to work on Hydro's system. He said "No, I'm not, but you'd like that wouldn't you?" Pretty clear he knew I had him by the short hairs and if anyone was going to be sued it would be him and B.C. Hydro. So, again, I climb with spurs to trim, all the c.u.a.s I have ever known climb with spurs at all times for B.C. Hydro. This is a pretty pathetic situation, a man lying to people, the public and fellow I.S.A. arborsits, and badmouthing a guy who does his best to keep the power on for the people in this province. So, you know who I am, perhaps you could call up Asplundh B.C. in Aldergrove and ask someone there about this spurless crap if you still doubt me. I know this isn't the end, I expect some sleazy, underhanded retatliation, my cards are on the table, bring it on.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

Well? There you go, anything else to ask of me or say?


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## treeseer (Jul 13, 2007)

jomoco said:


> It seems like a compromise is called for here in that there is some degree of practical truth in what Clearance's work practices are for his location. ...he faces a moral dilemna by insisting they abide by ANSI or ISA standards ...I myself, like many others have spent alot of money time and effort learning how to prune any and all trees properly to standard


What's crazy in this debate is that everyone talks about ANSI standards, which ISA and TCIA and other orgs have reps working on, but no one reads them! :hmm3grin2orange: 

My friend clearance climbs with spurs following ANSI standard 5.2.2, "Climbing spurs shall not be used...Exceptions...when the bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium; (or) in remote or rural rights of way"

If his company is condoning spurs on thin-barked trees in the city, and claiming they are ANSI-compliant, then they have some splainin to do, and clearance is right to out them and ge it into the open. If clearance advocates spur usage in the suburbs of San Diego :taped:, then he's as far outside his expertise as jomoco telling him that using spurs in the bush is wrong.:taped:


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

treeseer said:


> What's crazy in this debate is that everyone talks about ANSI standards, which ISA and TCIA and other orgs have reps working on, but no one reads them! :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> My friend clearance climbs with spurs following ANSI standard 5.2.2, "Climbing spurs shall not be used...Exceptions...when the bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium; (or) in remote or rural rights of way"
> 
> If his company is condoning spurs on thin-barked trees in the city, and claiming they are ANSI-compliant, then they have some splainin to do, and clearance is right to out them and ge it into the open. If clearance advocates spur usage in the suburbs of San Diego :taped:, then he's as far outside his expertise as jomoco telling him that using spurs in the bush is wrong.:taped:


ANSI does not apply in British Columbia, and this issue has gone beyond the "spurs are bad" debate. Fact is, again for you and others, all the people who work for B.C. Hydro as supervisors of the utility treework done for them by private contractors are ISA certified. It is them, the ISA certified supervisors who work for B.C. Hydro who condone the use of spurs, by watching it being done and never saying anything about it (no doubt because it is safe and productive and they have no problem with it). I was called a hack, among other things, I was disbelieved and one of the head people at B.C. Hydro lied about this fact to people, Boston Bull and my friend, for starters. I identified myself and had it out with him about this. Needless to say I will never get a job with B.C. Hydro, and will not be suprised if there are consequences for me. Brian Fisher told me I can climb how I want, good enough for me. I will never climb spurless around powerlines, no one else I know will, contractors will opppose it, it ain't gonna happen, and I will do what I can to make sure that this "spurless around powerlines crap" stays the hell out of utility work in this province.


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## jomoco (Jul 13, 2007)

*Mulish obstinence*



clearance said:


> ANSI does not apply in British Columbia, and this issue has gone beyond the "spurs are bad" debate. Fact is, again for you and others, all the people who work for B.C. Hydro as supervisors of the utility treework done for them by private contractors are ISA certified. It is them, the ISA certified supervisors who work for B.C. Hydro who condone the use of spurs, by watching it being done and never saying anything about it (no doubt because it is safe and productive and they have no problem with it). I was called a hack, among other things, I was disbelieved and one of the head people at B.C. Hydro lied about this fact to people, Boston Bull and my friend, for starters. I identified myself and had it out with him about this. Needless to say I will never get a job with B.C. Hydro, and will not be suprised if there are consequences for me. Brian Fisher told me I can climb how I want, good enough for me. I will never climb spurless around powerlines, no one else I know will, contractors will opppose it, it ain't gonna happen, and I will do what I can to make sure that this "spurless around powerlines crap" stays the hell out of utility work in this province.




You simply don't know when to quit, do you Clearance?

You gleefully state that you and your colleagues spike any and everything that gets in your way regardless of species or bark thickness, spike em all!

Then you brazenly advise newbies worldwide to do the same because you do it all the time to be safe and more productive.

This mulish mentality to promote your hack and spike practices across the professional arborist spectrum does little more than expose you as an obstinent hack beating his chest and shouting his ignorance to the world.

There's no middle ground or compromise that can be reached with people like you, and you've effectively proven that any attempts to do so are a waste of time.

Congratulations!

jomoco


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

jomoco said:


> You simply don't no when to quit, do you Clearance?
> 
> You gleefully state that you and your colleagues spike any and everything that gets in your way regardless of species or bark thickness, spike em all!
> 
> ...



No, I don't quit, I was questioned, mocked and lied about. For a moment Jo, never mind me, what have you to say about B.C. Hydro, the huge utility thats treework supervisors are all ISA supervisors, whose director of arboriculture is a very high ranking member of the ISA, thats lets people climb everything with spurs? What the hell do you say to that?


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> You guys are too much.
> 
> I think that mr. clearance forgets that this is called ARBORIST SITE!!!!!
> 
> I must also say that I have always doubted clearance as a legit profile on this board but I do enjoy his posts.opcorn:



Still doubt me Donny?


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## jomoco (Jul 13, 2007)

*Dear Clearance*



clearance said:


> No, I don't quit, I was questioned, mocked and lied about. For a moment Jo, never mind me, what have you to say about B.C. Hydro, the huge utility thats treework supervisors are all ISA supervisors, whose director of arboriculture is a very high ranking member of the ISA, thats lets people climb everything with spurs? What the hell do you say to that?



As I've stated before, my biggest beef with you is your stubborn refusal to quit giving lame and career damaging advice to newbies that are seeking advice from the pro's at AS.COM.

As far as B.C. Hydro's hypocritical work practices in Canada go, no it doesn't shock or surprise me that the ISA or ANSI turn a blind eye when a big corporation cuts corners to turn a higher profit.

The NAA was a corrupt bunch of hypocrites when their chairman Bob Felix was alive. When the NAA merged with TCI magazine after his death to form a more consolidated stranglehold on the arborist industry, that didn't surprise me either. Corporate mergers to consolidate monopolistic strangleholds on industry has been all the rage since the Reagan era.

I will admit to being somewhat impressed by your brave efforts to point out B.C. Hydro's hypocrisy to the world while subcontracting for them, but there again it also highlights your own hypocrisy in practicing the very substandard work that you're rather lamely attempting to call them on.

What's your end goal, unemployment?

Good job.

jomoco


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

jomoco said:


> As I've stated before, my biggest beef with you is your stubborn refusal to quit giving lame and career damaging advice to newbies that are seeking advice from the pro's at AS.COM.
> 
> As far as B.C. Hydro's hypocritical work practices in Canada go, no it doesn't shock or surprise me that the ISA or ANSI turn a blind eye when a big corporation cuts corners to turn a higher profit.
> 
> ...



Thanks, somewhat, I guess. If I become unemployed due to my efforts to expose this glaring hypocrisy then I will take legal recourse. I am not a hypocrite in my work practices, I have always said I climb with spurs and have made no secret of the fact that trees around powerlines are not the highest consideration. It goes like this, safety #1, powerline #2, trees #3. You may call me an ignorant climber or a hack, but hypocrite is wrong (at least when it comes to my job). Thank you for your opinion on the NAA, I agree with you about the consilidation that has happened everywhere since the Reagan "supply side", "trickle down" bunk of the '80s. Makes sense that the same rot would come into the tree world as well.


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## oldirty (Jul 13, 2007)

i think what is lame and smacks of immaturity is the call to BC hydro in the first place.

there is no way in hell i'd work a tree over or around the lines with out spikes. no chance.

again, Mr clearance, knew you were stand up. respect.




oldirty


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## jomoco (Jul 13, 2007)

*Glaring Contradiction Here*

I can't help but point out what I see as a glaring contradiction in your stated rationales for wearing gaffs while performing line clearance in proximity to high voltage.

Explain to me how being gaffed in to a live tree while trimming limbs away from high voltage doesn't provide a perfect path to ground in the event of a mistake and contact is made with an energized line via green limb, saw, polesaw, whatever. How do steel gaffs sunk into wet xylem wood not provide a perfect path to ground through you.

It seems to me that you'd be far better off in the event of a mistake not to be wearing gaffs sunk into wet wood, far better off.

I've done lots of line clearance work both here and in the Big Bear Area sans gaffs for that very reason. Your stated logic totally eludes me. Every line clearance trimmer is going to get tingled or jolted eventually if he stays at it for any appreciable amount of time. I've been in this business for 33 years and been jingled and jolted a half dozen times by voltage, but never seriously because I don't wear gaffs when performing line clearance in live trees, to me it's a matter of common sense that has served me well to date.

So how do you big bad line clearance experts explain this rather glaring contradiction in your so very loudly touted work practices.

Sounds more like fools playing russian roulette with their lives than any professional work standard to me.

jomoco


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## beowulf343 (Jul 13, 2007)

jomoco said:


> I can't help but point out what I see as a glaring contradiction in your stated rationales for wearing gaffs while performing line clearance in proximity to high voltage.
> 
> Explain to me how being gaffed in to a live tree while trimming limbs away from high voltage doesn't provide a perfect path to ground in the event of a mistake and contact is made with an energized line via green limb, saw, polesaw, whatever. How do steel gaffs sunk into wet xylem wood not provide a perfect path to ground through you.
> 
> It seems to me that you'd be far better off in the event of a mistake not to be wearing gaffs sunk into wet wood, far better off.



Power's looking for a path to the ground, doesn't matter if you're wearing spikes or not. You complete the circuit, you're going to feel the juice. You must have been working around some low voltage stuff or was lucky-the stuff i used to climb around, you make a "mistake" it would kill you with or without spikes on. So i would wear the spikes as another point of attachment to the tree.


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## jomoco (Jul 13, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> Power's looking for a path to the ground, doesn't matter if you're wearing spikes or not. You complete the circuit, you're going to feel the juice. You must have been working around some low voltage stuff or was lucky-the stuff i used to climb around, you make a "mistake" it would kill you with or without spikes on. So i would wear the spikes as another point of attachment to the tree.



So I guess all these horror stories I've heard and read about power line clearance workers being blown off their gaffs when they complete that path to ground are all old wives tales, right?

jomoco


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## beowulf343 (Jul 13, 2007)

jomoco said:


> So I guess all these horror stories I've heard and read about power line clearance workers being blown off their gaffs when they complete that path to ground are all old wives tales, right?
> 
> jomoco



Oh, wait a minute, you think the rubber soles on your shoes will save you if you complete the circuit, don't you? Never mind man.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> Oh, wait a minute, you think the rubber soles on your shoes will save you if you complete the circuit, don't you? Never mind man.



Yeah, and a you can use a dry piece of wood to push someone off a live line, and a host of others myths. Bottom line, unless it has a valid dielectric test sticker on it, its conductive.


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## jomoco (Jul 13, 2007)

*Wow*

Wow, you big manly line clearance guys sure are smart up there stomping around in your gaffs doing such a dangerous job.

Poor little greenies like me can only look up at you and marvel at your astonishing bravery.

And to think I'm stupid enough to go up without my gaffs and do that.

Boy am I a dork or what!

jomoco


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## treeseer (Jul 13, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> Take out any co-dominant stems with included bark and bad junctures.
> Take out any branches that are crossing, rubbing, or leaning on one another.
> Take out any suckers with bad growth patterns, or that will cause problems in the near future .


Instead of "take out", remove OR reduce. /A lot of codom, rubbing and other branches are better shortened than removed.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

jomoco said:


> Wow, you big manly line clearance guys sure are smart up there stomping around in your gaffs doing such a dangerous job.
> 
> Poor little greenies like me can only look up at you and marvel at your astonishing bravery.
> 
> ...


You said it.


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## Dadatwins (Jul 13, 2007)

Back on main topic, many 'topped' trees will usually send out one or two new main shoots that can be trained to become the new crown. The challenge to the tree is to close the topping wound before decay sets in. 

And to the sub topic - gaffs vs non arguement, not to many years ago standard practice was to gaff everything, we also used to paint all cuts and make flush cuts on every limb. We even used to 'top' trees to make them grow fuller at the bottom. Times change, improvements are made, and new techniques are discovered almost daily. Power line work and arboriculture have been and still are 2 separate and different tasks in my humble opinion. The techniques for one probably should not be used on the other, and vise -versa.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Power line work and arboriculture have been and still are 2 separate and different tasks in my humble opinion. The techniques for one probably should not be used on the other, and vise -versa.



Excellent point, makes sense. So why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA, wasting money and dragging down the credibility of the ISA? If anyone can explain that to me, I'm all ears.


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## joesawer (Jul 13, 2007)

clearance said:


> Excellent point, makes sense. So why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA, wasting money and dragging down the credibility of the ISA? If anyone can explain that to me, I'm all ears.



Because it sounds good when they tell people that they are members and only use approved methods. As they told BB. 
It is all about perceived image, not what is real. Most bureaucrats are politicians and create their own reality as they go.
ANSI recognizes the difference between residential arbor culture, and line clearance. If you think spurs are bad look at what the giraffes are doing. In many parts of the U.S. line clearance tree trimmers are becoming obsolete because of the giraffe type trimmers.


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## clearance (Jul 13, 2007)

joesawer said:


> Because it sounds good when they tell people that they are members and only use approved methods. As they told BB.
> It is all about perceived image, not what is real. Most bureaucrats are politicians and create their own reality as they go.
> ANSI recognizes the difference between residential arbor culture, and line clearance. If you think spurs are bad look at what the giraffes are doing. In many parts of the U.S. line clearance tree trimmers are becoming obsolete because of the giraffe type trimmers.



Thank you.


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## Ekka (Jul 14, 2007)

Brian Fisher is just brown nosing and furthering his own career, typical corporate prostitute.


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## BostonBull (Jul 14, 2007)

I have been away fro a couple of days.....

What a turn of events. I have a new respect foryou for calling Brian. He is a corporate liar. I still hink that climbing trees other than an old growth thick barked tree, should be done with NO spikes. No matter the situation. 
Clearance your still arrogant and I am still disagreeing with you on your work practices but that little move took balls!


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## treeseer (Jul 14, 2007)

"In many parts of the U.S. line clearance tree trimmers are becoming obsolete because of the giraffe type trimmers." 

i agree that giraffe trimming is a huge problem, worse than topping in some places. But I do not understand the above sentence. 



Ekka said:


> Brian Fisher is just brown nosing and furthering his own career, typical corporate prostitute.


Speaking of sitting on the sidelines and lobing hand grenades, that was a stink bomb from the back of the bleachers.

Yo Eric, try walking a mile in someone's shoes and boarding up your glass windows before you launch any more of those. Here's a news flash--Anarchy does not work!:monkey: 

imho The only way to change these orgs is for the members to rise up and get other members to voice opinions. Just read the comments from the latest ISA member survey of 20,000 members. It takes less than 20 minutes to read every word. Judging from what's said, most of those who speak out are desk aborists. The great majority of field arborists don't say squat, then wonder why policies are disproportionately skewed toward the interests of desk arborists. DUH!

I got nothin against desk arborists, spending half my working time at a desk.  Complaining is constructive when it's done respectfully and through channels that get your voice heard. Destructive complaining may feel good, like popping a pimple, but it leaves a wound, and changes little.


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## diltree (Jul 14, 2007)

People that have never worked around power, telling guys that do work around power how to do their job pretty funny. For the record, the ROWS we have serviced for 50 years have all been gaffed over and over again, and the tree's keep growing and never die.......I don't see what the big deal about gaffing ROWs is with some of you guys.


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## diltree (Jul 14, 2007)

Ok..that I disagree with....

When working with other peoples trees, you should treat the trees with the utmost respect, as the trees are part of a customers personal property. Gaffing someones trees shows a sign of disrespect, as we know that the gaffs do cause wounds to the cambium and can also spread certain fungal disease and pathogens. There is a time and place for the use of gaffs while pruning, and I agree that ROWs are an example of an acceptable time to prune w/ gaffs: however, any time people hire you to work on their property you should respect their property, and use the least destructive methods of climbing, that means no gaffs! Too gaff an ignorant customers trees when you know better is both unprofessional, dishonest, and disrespectful.

TreeCo......Clearance has never struck me as dishonest, I'm surprised at his position

Clearance, I have always thought of you as a straight shooter, and respected you for that reason. My question is, do you really believe we should be gaffing peoples tree's? these being same people that are hiring us as professionals to take care of their tree's.


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## nytreeman (Jul 14, 2007)

*Being honest*



oldirty said:


> there is no way in hell i'd work a tree over or around the lines with out spikes. no chance.
> again, Mr clearance, knew you were stand up. respect.



Ok slam me if you want I just wanted to give my view on this.

I give Clearance a lot of credit he's been a stand up guy right along and whether you agree with him or not has been shootin' straight and I respect him for that.All this bs with the rep and his hypocritical cover my ass type of crap pisses me off and is typical these days of buracrates,big business and government. If I was doing a dangerous job like clearing lines if gaffs make me more secure in that tree,then you bet your ass I'd be standing in my spurs too.

I totally agree trimming a tree gaffless is better for the tree and should be done whenever possible,esp in the case of homeowners.But then too I know several ISA certs near me, and many who still trim or there climbers do,at times in spikes.Lots only have a cert because its requirement for bidding many counties and towns.It's just a piece of paper to them.Many could never hold a candle next to some of the old timers I've known.Guys,who would talk about the first time they saw a bucket truck and laughed saying "hell all I needed was a rope and a belt for any tree I ever did".

The majority of work I do are removals and always in gaffs.The trimming I can do gaffless I free climb with a safety or pitch a rope and hoist my ass up.But in around here we get lots of storm damaged trees many still salvageable but in small back/side yards totally inaccesable to any equipment.Big mutistemmed silver maples and huge scary willows that the wind has broken up and craps hanging all over.Or Early fall and late spring snow twists them up and tears and twists the laterals.People want to save them many times it's their only tree so if it's possible I will, but these are dangerous tree over fences,sheds,sometimes several houses.Many times with the high lines running behind on the line.These trees I usually climb with a 10 ft flipline and my rope for my safety and* in my gaffs* I don't like the idea of bouncing around on a rope in these trees until I feel I can do it with a minimum of risk for me and for property.


clearance said:


> I climb with spurs and have made no secret of the fact that trees around powerlines are not the highest consideration. It goes like this, safety #1, powerline #2, trees #3. You may call me an ignorant climber or a hack, but hypocrite is wrong (at least when it comes to my job).




Like clearance said your safety is #1. Besides about half the year here its wet and snowing,my ropes are always wet or frozen then trees slippery and covered in snow and ice.I'm very cautious and I consider myself a good climber have climbed for several companies before going on my own climbed trees that no one else would and got them down without a problem.I explain to customers what i'm going to do and how I'll do it and I tell them in these situations that I will be wearing spikes.I like to stay simple but if I have the tree looking like a spiderweb of rope or pull split trees back and chaining and guying them together to remove them I'll get the tree done.I make proper cuts,never top,I'll cut back to a lat or something never stub.I try my best to do it right but if it's a job with the extra hazard like clearing or cleaning up badly broken trees I think me being safe and being able to do the job safely means more than a the few scars I make climbing this type of tree in spurs.



beowulf343 said:


> Power's looking for a path to the ground, doesn't matter if you're wearing spikes or not. You complete the circuit, you're going to feel the juice. You must have been working around some low voltage stuff or was lucky-the stuff i used to climb around, you make a "mistake" it would kill you with or without spikes on. So i would wear the spikes as another point of attachment to the tree.



I want to have all the control I can have and that third point works for me. Got touched by 3 phase yrs back, just a little zap from a very thin 15-20 ft spruce branch that got hung by it's cones in another as I had tossed it so I'm coming down my rope to get it and the wind caught it and tipped it back on the lines behind me stub jamming into my leg.Fell back against my rope and the limb slid off.No spikes and and I would have probably been swingin and swinging near those lines doesn't appeal to me at all.

Sorry about the long rant and I don't mean to p!ss anyone off it's just my 2 cents.
Heres to AS for the opportunity for all of us to give our opinions.
This is a great site! thanks.


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## clearance (Jul 14, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> I have been away fro a couple of days.....
> 
> What a turn of events. I have a new respect foryou for calling Brian. He is a corporate liar. I still hink that climbing trees other than an old growth thick barked tree, should be done with NO spikes. No matter the situation.
> Clearance your still arrogant and I am still disagreeing with you on your work practices but that little move took balls!



Thank you Boston Bull. I have thought about this a lot, its probably not over because of what I have done but thats another matter. Anyways, as far as this site goes, I will no longer advise people about how to climb, except for removals or work around powerlines, if I forget this, remind me.


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## BostonBull (Jul 14, 2007)

clearance said:


> Thank you Boston Bull. I have thought about this a lot, its probably not over because of what I have done but thats another matter. Anyways, as far as this site goes, I will no longer advise people about how to climb, except for removals or work around powerlines, if I forget this, remind me.



Thats not the issue, you advising people how to climb. You have good ideas and good advice. Just get off the high horse and admit that spiking, other than old growth ROW trees and removals, is WRONG!

Thats why everyone is pissed at you! You tell every new guy and veteran on here to use spikes and "F" trees! Alot of the co's out there make their money on tree preservation which does NOT include the use of spikes on anything other than removals.


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## clearance (Jul 14, 2007)

diltree said:


> People that have never worked around power, telling guys that do work around power how to do their job pretty funny. For the record, the ROWS we have serviced for 50 years have all been gaffed over and over again, and the tree's keep growing and never die.......I don't see what the big deal about gaffing ROWs is with some of you guys.



Boston, I said I would no longer advise people here about climbing, except for removals and powerline work. I will not advocate the use of spurs on residential trees. Wrong, o.k., its not good for the trees. I will slink off into my cave now.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 14, 2007)

clearance said:


> I will not advocate the use of spurs on residential trees. Wrong, o.k., its not good for the trees. I will slink off into my cave now.



Well Jim, it takes a real man to admit when he is wrong  Though I've said for a long time that you are a skilled professional in your niche of the industry. I prefer the ANSI description to the ROW job Qualified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer, I think utility arborist is bunk. Here the workers are part of the IBEW union, which makes sense. ROW veg control is all about production and keeping the electrons flowing so that the executives can get their bonuses (oops, sorry, my wife works for the local power company...)

Yeah, I get frustrated when I see where one of them gaffed up an easy willow in a back yard to get a few limbs out, or they strip the side of a tree and head it back so there's noting left, "why not take it down????"

I do not have any ROW workers as friends, but have spent time talking to them on jobsites where they are doing 10ft work for us. Any top climber there with is highly skilled, I saw one 50 something Y/O on 3 strand and taughtline with dogsnap slacktender swinging around a stand of peckerpoles and whips that would have snapped off under me


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## Ekka (Jul 14, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Yo Eric, try walking a mile in someone's shoes and boarding up your glass windows before you launch any more of those. Here's a news flash--Anarchy does not work!:monkey:



Treeseer, news flash.

It's our right and responsibility to expose the typical sort of BS perpetrated by the likes of the guy.

What's your role now, protect all BSing ISA members? You wouldn't have a clue what I do, you just hang around the same ole ground hog day.  

Your contribution to our issues here has been noted.


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## treeseer (Jul 14, 2007)

"I saw one 50 something Y/O on 3 strand and taughtline"
JPS he sounds like a true pro! Experience and Tautline rules! :blob5: 



Ekka said:


> It's our right and responsibility to expose the typical sort of BS perpetrated by the likes of the guy.


Which is why I said this 2 pages ago: "If his company is condoning spurs on thin-barked trees in the city, and claiming they are ANSI-compliant, then they have some splainin to do, and clearance is right to out them and get it into the open."

Namecalling :deadhorse: doesn't do anything to expose the truth. clearance stepped up; so what positive contribution is made by fanning the flames? The higher the temperature, the harder it is to make changes. :computer2:


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## clearance (Jul 14, 2007)

treeseer said:


> "I saw one 50 something Y/O on 3 strand and taughtline"
> JPS he sounds like a true pro! Experience and Tautline rules! :blob5:
> 
> Which is why I said this 2 pages ago: "If his company is condoning spurs on thin-barked trees in the city, and claiming they are ANSI-compliant, then they have some splainin to do, and clearance is right to out them and get it into the open."
> ...



I am not asking for any changes, I just want the B.S. and hypocrisy to stop. B,C, Hydro ain't the company I work for, it is the company flying the ISA flag, they should be kicked out.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 15, 2007)

treeseer said:


> JPS he sounds like a true pro! Experience and Tautline rules! :blob5:



He surely was, and he listened to me when I was showing them different knots and stuff they had heard of, but had no opportunity for exposure.

As for the thin-barked comment...well It is possible for canker formation on thick barked trees where phelogen was opened up.


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> He surely was, and he listened to me when I was showing them different knots and stuff they had heard of, but had no opportunity for exposure.


ok ok I'm still listening; just kinda slow on the uptake...


> As for the thin-barked comment...well It is possible for canker formation on thick barked trees where phelogen was opened up.


very true; thick barked trees can get infected too.


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## Ekka (Jul 15, 2007)

treeseer said:


> so what positive contribution is made by fanning the flames? The higher the temperature, the harder it is to make changes.



Or the higher the flames the better the roasting.


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Or the higher the flames the better the roasting.


I thought cannibals were in New Guinea; not Brisbane. :sword:  :looser:


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## clearance (Jul 15, 2007)

treeseer said:


> I thought cannibals were in New Guinea; not Brisbane. :sword:  :looser:



Are you going to do anything about the B.S. going on, with your fellow, and high up ISA liar at B.C. Hydro? Yes or no?


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## Dadatwins (Jul 15, 2007)

Curious to what you want done, the BC hydro guy already says they 'encourage' proper arboriculture practices. Talk about a lawsuit waiting happen forcing a guy to rope climb that has always been a spiker and then he gets hurt. Obviously they and you know the bottom line is production. I worked for the big orange many years ago and the only interest was cut the least you can to get clearance and get as many spans done as possible. To retrain all their personel to climb spurless (it is possible) would be an enormous expense and that affects the bottom line. I can remember going to training classes telling us that ALL lines are considered HOT and not to be touched, and then they would show us how to secure the wooden ladder that you were standing on to the telephone cable so it did not fall and get broken. Anyone that has worked for the line companies know they treat their personel as raw meat that when spoiled goes in the trash. There are some very competent climbers that do line work, that is what they are good at. A large percentage of production climbers today started in line clearance and then burned out and moved onto residential work. Takes a different type of climber and retraining to do it but its possible. As I said before 2 different kinds of work. As for the ISA going after the BC guys with a firing squad, unless they start messing with the logo you can forget it. I beleive your question was answered back on page 4 of this thread with the political correctness answer.


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## clearance (Jul 15, 2007)

joesawer said:


> Because it sounds good when they tell people that they are members and only use approved methods. As they told BB.
> It is all about perceived image, not what is real. Most bureaucrats are politicians and create their own reality as they go.
> ANSI recognizes the difference between residential arbor culture, and line clearance. If you think spurs are bad look at what the giraffes are doing. In many parts of the U.S. line clearance tree trimmers are becoming obsolete because of the giraffe type trimmers.



This answer? They "encourage" it, talk about B.S., I "encourage" soldiers not to kill anyone to win wars, funny how you can't have an omellete without breaking any eggs, isn't it? And they are messing with the logo, they are flying it but not ensuring work is done to all ISA standards, so, that is messing with it. They are using the ISA certification and colors to make themselves look credible. And also wasting money, I mean how much has Hydro given to the ISA? Tests, books, conventions, and who knows what else. We are in the middle of a terrible pine beetle epidemic right now, that money should be spent sawing down trees, not giving it to a feel good mutual admiration society.


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## joesawer (Jul 16, 2007)

This problem did not happen over night and it will not be fixed over night. Inertia is a very powerful thing.
Clearance, I admire your courage and determination, and I understand where you are coming from, but you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of any one else. Being black balled from your industry is not an easy thiong to overcome (don't ask how I know). I am not saying to roll over and show your belly, just slow down and think about the most effective and efficiant way. If it becomes more expediant to make you disappear than to fix a problem, believe me there are people who will try (and they are some sneaky, clever bastages, with a lot of resorces).


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## Ekka (Jul 16, 2007)

Metaphores regarding heat for Treeseer.

When the boss calls you into his office and gives you a ...

grilling

flaming

roasting

BBQ'ing

branding

Means you are not eaten or even cooked, just dealt with verbally.


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## buckbandit (May 17, 2008)

Hey gottacut it depends on what your climbing the tree for, prunning or removal? Now I'm a utility tree worker so everything I do is straight removal. So spurs are great and can help you get up in a hurry. The micro accender is awsome for your lanyard I use one myself. Weather your removeing or prunning though a good investment is a big shot. It will allow you to put ropes into trees 40-50 ft up or more with decent accuracy. If your climbing with gaffs you can use a not like the taught line hitch and belay yourself into a tree and not worry bout falling out. If your prunning, launch the rope once high into the canopy and hip thrust or foot lock up. Let's face it we're doin it for the money so anything that get's you up faster and safer and then down again in my books is good.


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## costello (May 21, 2008)

*i climed all day*



BostonBull said:


> I never said guys who climb all day doing removals are lazy and I never said that guys who prune without hooks sit in a truck all day.....seems like you answered the question you WISHED I asked not the question/comment that was presented.
> 
> I never said you were lazy in terms of working. I am saying you are lazy in your learning, for climbing with spikes and not wanting to learn any other way.
> 
> ...



many time00000s i have spur climbed for many hour past what you all perceive as proper what are you asking to know for each person.


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## costello (May 21, 2008)

*spur climbing is ok*

if i climb and the tree don't know, and the spikes, used were rife all the crew would have post.


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## costello (May 21, 2008)

*now you sleep*

talk is ahhh just kidding my dad died last may 20 goodbye old man .................. maybe the best bull ####ter that everwas....


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## oldirty (May 21, 2008)

costello said:


> many time00000s i have spur climbed for many hour past what you all perceive as proper what are you asking to know for each person.





costello said:


> if i climb and the tree don't know, and the spikes, used were rife all the crew would have post.





costello said:


> talk is ahhh just kidding my dad died last may 20 goodbye old man .................. maybe the best bull ####ter that everwas....






what?


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## hornett224 (May 22, 2008)

*it depends on the person.*

i am self taught on climbing but i also took a lot of advice here and from guys i met after getting in the biz.always remember safety first and double check everything.if you don't like it,don't do it.triple checking doesn't hurt.some trees are stronger than others.some hinge or break differently than others.take it slow and you will learn.

getting training or lesson is an excellent idea.i tried and begged around here but no one had the time.not even for payment.some of us have to do what we have to do.something to remember next time you seasoned guys run into someone starting out looking for pointers or wanting to learn.take the time,then lecture.


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