# Timberline sharpeners



## scheffa (Oct 28, 2016)

Just curious if any of the milling boys have tried the timberline sharpener? From what I have read it produces an awesomely sharp edge which would be a great benefit in milling


----------



## kimosawboy (Oct 28, 2016)

I dont think you can adjust the angle on these!!! Also $230 + $30 (Canadian) for new tips is kinda overpriced to me.


----------



## Sawyer Rob (Oct 28, 2016)

They are coming out with, or already have come out with a 0 or 10* cutter for milling...

Once in a while, I see them for $99.00.

SR


----------



## scheffa (Oct 29, 2016)

Sawyer Rob said:


> They are coming out with, or already have come out with a 0 or 10* cutter for milling...
> 
> Once in a while, I see them for $99.00.
> 
> SR



Where do you see them for that price


----------



## Sawyer Rob (Oct 29, 2016)

Last time I saw them at that price, it was at a lumber jack show...

SR


----------



## Franny K (Nov 1, 2016)

From what I have read some folks are not satisfied with the amount of movement of the part being sharpened. They create something that clamps the drive links. Pretty sure it has been on here (arboristsite in general not this specific sub section) so perhaps is searchable.

Carbide burrs for me make tiny chips that get into the skin and do not come out as easy as thorns or wood slivers. This may or may not be a concern.


----------



## jrhannum (Nov 1, 2016)

10 degree implement from Timberline

I'm pleased with the 25-degree first edition; seems to have cleaned up the errors I made using grinding-wheel and Dremel burrs. A recent email from Timberline says v/v the 10-degree mod:
"It is in the works but we don't have the 10˚ available yet"


----------



## heyduke (Nov 6, 2016)

scheffa said:


> Where do you see them for that price



http://www.timberlinesharpener.com/shop

$125 with one burr, extra burrs $20. Don't know the complexities and expenses of shipping to the frozen north.

as far as i know they still don't offer a sharpener for ripping chains, but for 30 degree cutters, nothing will get your chain sharper and keep it sharp longer. it takes longer than a grinder but is faster than filing. i think a big part of their customer base is firefighters who appreciate the ability to sharpen in the field. i wouldn't recommend them for damaged chains, but they're a lot better than files for that. someone suggested that they have "excessive movement." not so, they can keep a chain sharpened to precise specifications. if you're in the habit of filing chains, be prepared to be humbled. i've been using mine for 5 years.

wear gloves and safety glasses. keep your hands away from your face and hair.


----------



## MGoBlue (Nov 6, 2016)

These jigs have an adjustable piece that pushes against the tooth to keep it from moving. I wedged a dime in mine to improve contact.


----------



## heyduke (Nov 6, 2016)

The "piece" that you're talking about is thin spring steel. it allows the cutter to move transversely so that it can conform with the carbide. if you set the chain stop correctly everything will be fine. problem is when you adjust the chain stop advanced too far, the tip of the carbide burr won't go into the the cutter unless you push on that little spring and move the chain to the left. if you have the chain stop advanced that much you will likely damage the carbide, trying to cut too much at one time. i've found that if you adjust the chain stop with the carbide pushed all the way in, the fat part in the cutter, you won't have that problem and your carbide tool will last a lot longer.

the timberline needs patience. the first time you sharpen a chain with a timberline it takes some time to cut away all the poorly shaped material caused by hand filing and/or poor grinder dressing. take your time or you will need a new carbide. after that, in subsequent sharpenings, things go quickly because everything fits..

at least that's been my experience. an expert is just a guy from outta town.


----------



## srb08 (Nov 6, 2016)

I totally agree with Duke. I've had a Timberline for several years and love it. 
I use mine in conjunction with a chain vise and have had outstanding results.
When trying to sharpen a chewed up chain, you have to make several passes, adjusting the stop to take a small amount of material each time. It's a slow process but yields excellent results. 
I find that the Timberline removes less material than a grinder and my chains last a lot longer.


----------



## BobL (Nov 7, 2016)

I've watched a few video's of the timberline jig.
By the time the timberline is set up I have touched up at east 3 cutters.
This video shows me touching up at ~ 3.5s per cutter and I can do it in 3s per cutter if required.


Remember you only need to remove enough metal to remove the glint on the edge of the cutter, removing any more is unnecessary.
Unless I have hit something hard with the chain I find 2 or 3 swipes is all that is needed for a touch up.
If the chain has hit something hard then no multiple pass is needed just add extra strokes on the spot.

The cutter is only one half of the cutting equation with the other half being the rakers which few operators understand the importance of maintaining on a much more regular basis.

If anyone can point to a video showing the Timberline performing any faster I'd really like to it.


----------



## scheffa (Nov 7, 2016)

Your correct @BobL i to can file a chain quite quickly with satisfactory results, just curious if the timberline may be able to get a sharper edge that may cut quicker?? I find sharpening my 7' bar very tiring when in the field milling, after the first couple of touch ups my hands start to get sore holding the file


----------



## heyduke (Nov 7, 2016)

BobL said:


> I've watched a few video's of the timberline jig.
> By the time the timberline is set up I have touched up at east 3 cutters.
> This video shows me touching up at ~ 3.5s per cutter and I can do it in 3s per cutter if required.
> 
> ...




BobL-
nice vid. i agree with you to a point. filing a chain that only needs two strokes per cutter is a lot quicker than using a timberline. i use my timberline the same way. after a day's work i clamp my saw in the vise and touch up cutters that are still fairly sharp. the main problem i have with filing is that only one guy in a thousand can do it well. guys bring me their saws to work on and i take one look at the chain and realize they're used to working with a dull chain. the only time they have a decent chain is the day they take it out of the box. you can screw up a chain with a timberline or a grinder too, especially a grinder but few people have the motor skills and hand-eye coordination to operate a file. as far as set up time goes, there's not much difference, clamp the bar in a vice put the carbide in its handle and the into the fixture, clamp it on the bar and adjust the chain stop. a larger difference is the quality of the edges. the carbide burrs in a timberline will put a surgically sharp edge on the cutters, sharp enough you need to be careful handling the saw. you can get a deep cut without even feeling it. you don't notice it until you see the blood and wonder where its coming from. all that being said, this thread is supposed to be about milling and to my knowledge timberline still doesn't offer a 10 degree fixture. in the end, i don't think there is any easy way to sharpen a milling chain for a sixty inch bar.


----------



## MGoBlue (Nov 7, 2016)

BobL said:


> If anyone can point to a video showing the Timberline performing any faster I'd really like to it.


Speed isn't a measure of performance. When you're finished, let's measure every tooth. Mine will all be exactly the same length and angle, yours not so much. I hand file 2-3 times then true up with the jig. No need to get all... you should know how to hand file... I'm quite proficient, specially with the double bevel. 
The main point here (pun intended) is that it creates a very precise chain that is razor sharp and leaves a shiny, almost polished finish.


----------



## heyduke (Nov 7, 2016)

MGoBlue said:


> Speed isn't a measure of performance. When you're finished, let's measure every tooth. Mine will all be exactly the same length and angle, yours not so much. I hand file 2-3 times then true up with the jig. No need to get all... you should know how to hand file... I'm quite proficient, specially with the double bevel.
> The main point here (pun intended) is that it creates a very precise chain that is razor sharp and leaves a shiny, almost polished finish.



ok, so i gather you are filing square-ground chains. that makes sense for two reasons. first a grinder costs more than $1000 (which would get you 3 rolls of new chain) and second, square ground is easier to file accurately. i can't justify the trouble and expense of using square ground. 90% of the chains i sharpen don't even belong to me and all are round ground. when i encounter a square ground chain, it quickly becomes a round ground. i completely agree with you regarding the "speed" of chain sharpening being less important than the "performance" of the chain. but here's the thing... a guy brings his trashed 72dl chain to my shop and i can look at it and know that half the top plate is going to need to go away, no way am i going to start scratching at it with a file or using up my carbide with a timberline. it's going on the oregon grinder and it will go back out the door sharp enough to throw big chips until he hits the dirt again or tries to sharpen it with a file. that's the real world.


----------



## MGoBlue (Nov 7, 2016)

In no way would I (or probably anyone who owns one), recommend a timberline for a shop production scenario like that.


----------



## MGoBlue (Nov 7, 2016)

scheffa said:


> Just curious if any of the milling boys have tried the timberline sharpener? From what I have read it produces an awesomely sharp edge which would be a great benefit in milling


Just to get back on track... I've milled quite a bit but have not used the jig for milling chain. On recommendation, I started out using full skip squarefiled chain. It worked fantastic, but I had a very difficult time with a double bevel file on the mill. So. I went back to round. @ about 10º. Due to the timberline not going to that, I've just hand filed. If and when they offer the guide, I'll buy it. My results using it have been excellent.


----------



## BobL (Nov 7, 2016)

scheffa said:


> Your correct @BobL i to can file a chain quite quickly with satisfactory results, just curious if the timberline may be able to get a sharper edge that may cut quicker??



Regular cutters are plated with a hardened outer layer of chrome-moly steel that does 90+% of the so called cutting. 
This layer is not really a "fine edge cutting tool steel".
It's most important quality is it's high abrasion resistance which is essential to protect the tops of cutters that are driven hundreds of thousands of times into wood during cutting
Abrasion resistant steels are relatively coarse grained so it cannot really be sharpened, even using diamond hones, to fine edges like fine grained too steels. 
All the files / burrs / gender wheels can, or need to do, is remove enough of the underlying cutter steel to expose a fresh edge of the chromemoly.
Claims made about razor sharp chains are just claims.
Any razor sharpness generated on a cutter is lost in the first few seconds of cutting as this fine edge is torn off.
Unless noodling, you need to remember that chainsaw cutters don't "cut" wood like a series of little wood planes, they puncture and tear wood out in chips.
The whole process involves cutter tips (guided by cutter and raker angles) rapidly rocking their way into wood, and when they reach their limit it's the chain tension and engine power that tears the wood out.
Once you understand that, the idea of worrying about razor sharp becomes secondary. 
Getting optimal top plate cutting angles and raker angles pretty much dominates the cutting process.
Getting the exact same angles helps reduce vibe and generates a smoother cut. 
However to crank up cutting speeds higher raker angles are needed and they come with more vibe and there's not much that can be done about it



MGoBlue said:


> Speed isn't a measure of performance. When you're finished, let's measure every tooth. Mine will all be exactly the same length and angle, yours not so much. .


I wasn't challenging performance, I was challenging the claim that it was, "faster than filing".

Re: cutter lengths and angles
Using progressive raker setting the length of a cutter and the exactness of any angle is not that important.
For example I haven't bothered to check the cutter lengths on any of my 25+ chains since ~2007
I also used to regularly put my chains on a grinder after every few days of milling to reset the angles, but I find I'm doing that less often and there does not seem to be a need for it.
Now about the only time my chains see a grinder is if they hit something and a serious amount of metal needs to be removed.
The most important factor I found is that the raker angle is on average the same, but even then the cutters can be +/- half a degree out, and the odd one can even be out by 1º.
If you are not aware of, or don't use progressive raker setting then we're not on the same page.
In Oz, the hardness of most of the timber is a very cruel and hard task master with respect to chain sharpening. 
When all you have available to cut is harder green, than Osage Orange is dry, then one either learns how to sharpen or goes home.


----------



## MGoBlue (Nov 7, 2016)

@scheffa here is a pic to show the finish quality you can achieve with the Timberline.


----------



## BobL (Nov 8, 2016)

First thing I notice is the raker looks like it has never been touched?
If I tried milling Aussie hardwoods with that cutter/raker setup the cutter simply would not penetrate sufficiently to make decent chips and it would instead generate a lot of powder and the saw would not self feed.
The pink rectangle shows how much should be removed from the rakers to generate a moderate 6º raker angle. 


In your softwoods you could easily go another 20% or more if you are game.
Mtngun from Idaho was using 9º last time i heard from him. 

Also I would remove that little pimple in the gullet,


----------



## scheffa (Nov 8, 2016)

That is indeed a very nice looking cutter. I do agree with bob on the raker height.
I guess chains are a thing that we take for granted, there is much more to sharpening a chain than most think. 
Also for milling I feel as this is exaggerated by the length and width of the cut.
For me using a chain that isn't as sharp as I can get it" which could be improved" can add 10-15 minutes to cut when milling dead yellow box at 1800mm wide and 4.5m long


----------



## BobL (Nov 8, 2016)

scheffa said:


> For me using a chain that isn't as sharp as I can get it" which could be improved" can add 10-15 minutes to cut when milling dead yellow box at 1800mm wide and 4.5m long



Fo something like dry Yellow Box (Janka hardness of about 3000lbs) the last thing you want is a cutter that is too pointy or has too low a top plate cutting angle. It will cut fast at the start but the YB will knock the edge off very quickly and it will rapidly slow down. Also I wouldn't use full chisel but semi chisel. I forgot - have you posted a side on picture of your cutters that I can diagnose?


----------



## MGoBlue (Nov 8, 2016)

BobL said:


> First thing I notice is the raker looks like it has never been touched?
> If I tried milling Aussie hardwoods with that cutter/raker setup the cutter simply would not penetrate sufficiently to make decent chips and it would instead generate a lot of powder and the saw would not self feed.
> The pink rectangle shows how much should be removed from the rakers to generate a moderate 6º raker angle. Also I would remove that little pimple in the gullet,



As stated.... that pic was for FINISH purposes only. This was a GTG chain(cutting cookies w/ a ported(modified) saw that likes maybe 13k in the cut, cutting clean softwood). Do you know or have you ever been to one? I wasn't looking for advice.
In fact the raker hadn't been touched yet (4 yr old pic). What I was taught to do is get my tooth right then begin to slowly bring the raker down to load the saw where I want it(rpm wise). I 10000% trust the chain guru I got this advice from and I agree.... there is a lot to learn, from the right person/peope. But thanks?


----------



## BobL (Nov 8, 2016)

MGoBlue said:


> As stated.... that pic was for FINISH purposes only. This was a GTG chain(cutting cookies w/ a ported(modified) saw that likes maybe 13k in the cut, cutting clean softwood). Do you know or have you ever been to one? I wasn't looking for advice.



If you post in this forum you will always get free advice. 

My main GTG experiences are all old school. Dad was an Aussie hardwood faller started with axes on 200+ ft tall karri. Working with a partner it would take them a day and half to being down and break up these trees into 12 fit lengths . I started going bush with dad and a half dozen other fallers on weekends and school vacations from when I was about 6 years old. I used to carry the mix and lube and when I was about 9 I was shown how to sharpen and did this for their saws up until I was about 14 when I realised I could work elsewhere and get paid. What I learnt from these GTGs was mainly not how to sharpen and eventually went back to first principles and worked things out for myself. 



MGoBlue said:


> In fact the raker hadn't been touched yet (4 yr old pic).


Based on the width of the gullet and the position of that little pimple in the gullet that's a lot of metal to remove before addressing the raker. 
FWIW My rakers get dropped even on new chain.


----------

