# Arborist Insurance?



## TimberMan (Sep 20, 2001)

I am in the process of starting a small business, which will include forestry consulting and tree care. I hope to include pesticide application, which requires liability insurance before the state will issue a pesticide license. They also require proof of insurance before a tree expert license can be issued. What other kinds of insurance will I need, besides liability, and are there any insurance providers that specialize in forestry and arboriculture?


----------



## treeman82 (Sep 20, 2001)

Check with "the Hartford" they are supposed to be pretty into tree workers insurance. You are also going to need w/c insurance, theft, and some other stuff too.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 20, 2001)

Pesticides will realy limit the pool of providers for you to choose from. Call a few broker to see if they have an underwriter that works in this market.

The company covering me this year dropped is canceling the policy so my broker found someone else $100 more for next year.


----------



## Toddppm (Sep 20, 2001)

Yes you will need workers comp. if you are going to have 3 or more employees including yourself, sit down before they tell you the rates 
My ins. co. was going to set me up with the Hartford Arborist program this renewal but said they discontinued it for any new customers??????If anyone hears different please let me know!


----------



## treeman82 (Sep 20, 2001)

Todd, I had not heard about this. My insurance agent was supposed to be switching me over to the Hartford next year at a lower rate then what I am paying now. Right now I use a company called Indian Harbor I believe they are called. Work pretty good for me. Covered for; tree work, landscaping, snow removal, and also covered for pesticides.


----------



## TimberMan (Sep 21, 2001)

Thanks for the information. I'll make a few calls this morning and see what I can find out. Maybe I'll have to wait a while on the pesticide. I would be the only employee of the company, and I don't expect to make much over $5000 a year. Don't know if that would change my insurance rates any. I'll probably pay as much in license fees and insurance as I bring in!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 22, 2001)

If the revenue can about cover the costs it may be worth it. You are on a clients property on a regular basis so you can see problems. 

If you build the program as PHC instead of blanket apps you can hold the Chem costs down and charge more too. You take time to examine, apply by degree days or indicator plants (phenology) instead of hit everything every 42 days.

I have found that people are more impressed by seeing you using a handlense then actual spraying.


----------



## duff (Sep 22, 2001)

*W/C-Liab.-Bus Policies*

Hi, 
and thanks for being engaged in the very conversation I need to join...So, for a self-employed ISA cert'd arborist and crew of 2...engaged in pesticide free, organic, private residential understory and small tree mgmt...which insurance companies (besides State Comp Fund on the W/C) are hungry for our business?...I'm after a comprehensive package policy, and it would be good if they also write Residential Rental Business Policies of the same nature.
Any referrals MUCH appreciated.

Duff


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2001)

Duff,

I take it that you don't doo tall tree work or a lot of large removals. How much of your work can be concidered landscaping, vice aerial work? What is the highest you go on a regular basis. Could you live with a 35ft cap on climbing hight?

Some of these questions will determine how many people will cover you. If you are a landscaper who does some climbing, the pool is much larger. If you are a tree pruning company, welcom to the puddle. 33% of payroll to W/C.... (notice how that is the same as the euro term for toilette?)


----------



## duff (Sep 25, 2001)

*insurance and growth*

John,

Right you are. I consistently refer big trees to another more experienced arborist/climber (one of my finest teachers ) and his gifted crew. I decline removal work just as deliberately (I haven't yet made a connection with the right removal crew, so I also decline to refer anyone, and recommend my clients check ISA's website for referrals). There's only so much time, so I focus on the living and bless the dying. I enjoy coming back to enhance and study the results of my work over time. Removals offer me no such joys. I'm constantly honing my skills at recognizing what's worth my diligent restoration efforts and what's not safe to be near. 
I'm the only one on my crew who's had even rudimentary climbing training, and I am definitely still a novice myself, though I have many years of knowledge and experience with planting & plants. So far, I'm also the only really serious arborist. Though my present crew is ever eager for work, they are not so committed to enhancing their knowledge, skills and effectiveness. Primarily, there are issues of personal discipline, dedication to quality, and maturity at play. My younger brother is on my crew...he does show great natural talent and has real potential as a climber, BUT...diligence is still precious and fleeting....basically they all prefer to be told what to do, and will take on as little responsibility for independent action as I will tolerate. 
They are learning to prune correctly and while they do, I keep them busy cleaning up behind me as I go...hauling and chipping the results and applying the chip back to the ground under the trees from whence it came....digging the right sized holes, etc.

I am taking in the basic Arbormaster Climbing Training video series** and have encouraged them to join in as well as to pursue the knowledge needed to become certified arborists. I have considered live comprehensive aerial safety and climbing training for all of us. I'd eventually prefer my crew to spin off on their own and require far less direction from me, as my pursuits are many and my administrative responsibilities are sometimes overwhelming.

Meanwhile, I free climb with a pair of lanyards and a belt from time to time, not over 15 feet for clients...always with my folding hand lens. In fact, I only go above that (or use my fine rope & saddle) recreationally or while practicing skills in my own trees. I keep my business within my state's legal guidelines for maybe-soon-to-be-licensed-or-perhaps-not contractors. California specifically excludes gardeners (who do not work over 15' in trees) from its landscaping contractor licensing requirements and non-licensed-contractor dollar limits. 
I create recurring day-long monthly/bimonthly-ish contracts entirely from referrals. Most of my clients like to spend the day working alongside me anyway, and they don't climb... I am mostly even just walking around with polesaw, telescopic pruners, hand pruners, folding saw and tarp, talking, teaching, learning, and manicuring....Mostly big shrubs and small ornamental trees. Lot sizes and property line laws play a decisive role in Los Angeles County. I do a lot of plant selection and installation, focus on lawnkill in favor of lots of mulch and appropriately sized, native and/or food-producing, fire-resistant, drought-tolerant plant communities. Though I am an arborist, my current client base would surely describe me as their occasional professional gardener. I do some landscaping and deadwood manicuring of favorite small trees and shrubs, and teach clients what to expect (insist) of their regular gardener and/or how to do the work properly themselves. I choose my short list of clients (and of employees) very carefully and I treat them with fairness and integrity. 
I am forever studying and vigorously pursuing CEU's. I will soon have enough ASCA CEU's for membership. I plan to take their consulting arborist training and the test. I do a great deal of reading and writing. My understanding of urban forestry and natural resource management is growing daily, thus my career direction is expanding and shifting, even as I type this. 
I hold a recently appointed seat on my city's Historic Preservation Board. I hope to enlighten and enthuse my community and my City's Council to take up the urban forestry torch with me. My goal is to raise the awareness of my fellow community residential and commercial property owners, who are clearly being taken advantage of by unskilled and oblivious hackers offering basement prices to ruin (trim, I think they call it)trees on private property.
Anyhow...I digress...ever-so.
That was probably more than you needed or wished to know, but that should give some idea of my present situation and the shape of things to come.
Are you aware of any great toilette & comprehensive business policies available for a team like my current one and flexible enough to grow with me? Can you wholeheartedly recommend any specific company or combination of companies to consider (or perhaps advise on who else I might consult)? It is obviously very important that I get this rock in my row as soon as possible.

Thanks, sincerely, for your counsel,
Pat Duff
ArborTender

**By the way, I just picked up the video series at the ISA Conference last month, and may I say, 
BRAVO on you Wisconsicans!
...THAT WAS A PEAK LIFE EXPERIENCE....
My profound gratitude to all who had a hand in the event, and to Milwaukee and Wisconsin in general, for boldly brandishing the light. What a beautiful city, and what a fine and flourishing urban forestry program you all have created there. Pass on my thanks and respect as far as you wish. I drove there and back in a convertible...three weeks on state highways and byways...my first solo vacation. Ever. Primo, man. Absolutely prime.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 25, 2001)

Being across the nation from you I cannot recomend any particular company. I called several brokers and did phone interveiws. Since my parttime work is all tall tree work (tree trimming, removal and cleanup by their definition) I found only three that would talk to me past the first few words <g>.

You on the other hand can emphisise that you are private gardener that does occasionals tree owrk that as defined by state law. This will definatly help with the w/c %. 

BTW, I am the last person to be able to accuse another of running on and off on a tangent.

I carry a soapbox whereever I go. The bottom is well worn.


----------



## duff (Sep 25, 2001)

Yes, I see from your history of posts that you are as you say.
I am mulling teflon hip boots and similar brain shield, for reasons with which I am sure you are also familiar.
 

Welp, OK...I've called around too...gotten a few serious quotes, and thus far, the rates are gaspworthy...my thought is that perhaps they are emphasizing the arborist angle, and overlooking the deliberately limited and clearly stated gardening activity. 
I've spent WAY too much time on this project over the last several months, and I really must close a deal, before I pull my last hair out. 
Perhaps some west-edge arborists :angel: (gardeners?) could throw in a few cents also, and lay a shortcut on me for who rules the trade in W/C & commercial/liability insurance?
Thanks much,
duff


----------



## Toddppm (Sep 26, 2001)

Another thing to think about Around here , no matter what kind of work you do, the most expensive rate applies to all who do it:alien: In other words, we do Lawn , Landscaping and tree work and I have my guys do it all , I don't have seperate crews, so if my guys that mow do tree work even once all year I have to pay the higher rate for their whole salary.
BUUUUUUUtttt it all depends on the auditor at the end of the year.....I just found out about this so needless to say I haven't been paying the right amount. Just when I thought I had it all figured out


----------



## duff (Sep 26, 2001)

Todd,
Yes, I think that aspect is similar here. Were you able to find a tolerable rate?, and if so, do they rate for the west coast also?, and if so...Which company?, if I may ask.
Thanks,
Pat


----------



## treeclimber165 (Sep 27, 2001)

I believe the agent is more important than the insurance company. When I had my business I found a local agent that specialized in commercial insurance and let him find the best ins. company for me. I had one person that handled my account, and when I called them to send out a certificate they always had it out the same day. This was a plus when I knew that if a potential customer asked for an ins. certificate I could tell them it would be in their mailbox within 2 days.
( I also kept extra copies in my truck, which was sufficient for many customers. But on big jobs I was usually asked to provide a certificate.)


----------



## Toddppm (Sep 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by duff _
> *Todd,
> Yes, I think that aspect is similar here. Were you able to find a tolerable rate?, and if so, do they rate for the west coast also?, and if so...Which company?, if I may ask.
> Thanks,
> Pat *


Tolerable
 
Well i guess it's not bad $20 per $100, someone else mentioned about $33. I don't know if they deal with the west coast , probably not it's Southern Ins. of Va.
The co. that writes my policy is second line???or something like that. My co. name gets put in a pool and a co. got drawn that has to carry me, lucky them. I don't understand it all. 
Since we're on the subject, I wasn't even in the right category for the last 4 years!!! The cat. list said tree service and I bugged my agent about it probably 10 times to make sure it was right, didn't find out till she sold her bus. to the co. that's doing it now. (I bugged them to triple check it)
The National Council on Compensation Insurance sets the rates for all occupations, so why does it vary by state????? I got a letter from a co. offering lower rates before my last renewal showing NCCI rates and theirs, I asked my agent about it and she said they would write it, but then would probably drop me once they got better business?Is she pulling my leg????? I don't know , got too many other things going on to worry about it right now, as long as I'm covered I'm not messin with it .


----------



## WillClimb (Oct 15, 2001)

Guys, I'm all for being honest but I just want to know...how would an insurance company know if you were in the hospital for a 15' fall or a 35' fall? I mean, why couldn't you just get a cheaper policy that covered climbing up to 15', and then just climb as high as you want? Are the payouts less?

You may have guessed I haven't been insurance shopping yet.

Thanks - Will


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 20, 2001)

Depends on the extent of injuries. If the payout is great they will want to evaluate the site of injury. If they find you exceeded your coverage/exclusions they will not pay out. So this is a case of "penney wise pound foolish". The way to hedge is to claim you do partial ariel work only. But you still have to be able to withstand a random audit. At best they will drop you, worst they will sue you for fraud.


----------

