# Always double check hardware



## kennertree (Jan 25, 2006)

Today i was lowering some pine logs using a block and sling. The spar was 50 feet high or so when i rigged the first chunk to be lowered. I made sure the block was secured to the sling on the first chunk. Several chunks later, I was on the last one. I made sure the ground man was ready and started the back cut on the last log. After he lowered it, i looked at the block and the bolt had worked its way loose. The sling was still attatched to the block but only by luck. Lesson learned..............check your rigging every cycle. Double check it if you have to. This could have been a pretty bad accident. If that block would have came out of the sling it could slingshot that thing at warp speed and hit a groundman or the chunk could have rolled into the pool we were working beside. You will see how lucky i was when you see the pic. Be safe guys, always check twice before ya cut.


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## Redbull (Jan 25, 2006)

Wow!!Thats the same block I use. Thanks for the reminder. Glad everyone/everything is ok.


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## xtremetrees (Jan 25, 2006)

hooyaa!


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## PTS (Jan 25, 2006)

We use those too. Thanks for the heads up. I will share with the guys!


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## Matt Follett (Jan 27, 2006)

Wow

I don't think I ever posted about it... but exactly the same thing happened to me... same block! Scared me silly when I realized, had a piece on, guys lowering down, I looked at the block, and it was spun open, bent and hanging kind of sideways!

yep, check, check, and re check.


Matt


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## pantheraba (Jan 27, 2006)

.

I wouldn't a thunk it...thanks for the heads up.


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## Sprig (Jan 28, 2006)

Yikes!! Glad ta hear nobody squished, whew! I am wondering if it is maybe prudent to either peen the thread on the nut end or drill a small hole and intall a cotter-pin?  Might want to look into it as this it is only a matter of time before someone does get injured. I think I'd be talking to the manufacturer real quick too, even suggest something like a nylon lock-nut. Scary.


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## Ancient One (Jan 28, 2006)

*Changes are in Order!!*

Loctite!!!!!

From my aircraft experience, I would say a good prefilt check of all the equipment is a must for climbers. I would send the photo to the maker and the seller of the block, this is a deathtrap waiting to happen. A huge liabilty isssue, the lawers would jump on an accident resulting from this type of defect. Looks like the sheave friction is unscrewing the bolt.

A question from this non-climber: Is this block rated for overhead use, that is, lifting or suspending loads with personnel underneath???? Looks sort of wimpy as viewed with my machinery rigging experience. I would not bet the life of a groundy on this block.


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## skwerl (Jan 28, 2006)

I have the same block and I am extremely doubtful that the bolt backed out on it's own. Rather I suspect that it never got threaded into the nut when rigged and the user was simply spinning the bolt in place instead of threading it together. Mine has gotten old and sticky so I have to be very aware when screwing it together. The bolt can catch on the pulley and feel like it's screwing in, but it's just pressing against the other side plate and pushing them apart. It may be inconvenient, but I can handle it. And the block was $40 cheaper than the fancy CMI block and has a higher load rating (when it's screwed together properly).

And everyone PLEASE IGNORE THE LOCTITE SUGGESTION! You will ruin your block and make it impossible to open and close by hand.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 28, 2006)

Blocks are either rigged right or hopelessly wrong...Clifford Ashley said something similar about knots 

This is interesting. In just these few posts on this thread three people say that they've had problems with this block. Why use them? Is it worth any amount of money not to have positive locking pins?

The hardware that's in our climbing systems has to have automatic, positive locks. Also, the specs include a huge safety margin. Keep things consistent and use better gear for rigging. 

If threads get sticky the best thing to do is clean them first with solvent and a toothbrush. Then get a tap and die to chase the threads. If that doesn't make thing nice and smooth again, cut the block into little pieces and put it into recycling. 

Ever heard the saying 'Penny wise and pound foolish" ? The pounds that we work with aren't currency, their big logs that can come down and kill people. Don't save pennies!


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## Ancient One (Jan 28, 2006)

So, from the above post, are you guys screwing the bolt in and out, using the block as a snatch block of sorts?? No wonder the thing is backing out.

Sorry about the locktite answer, but if indeed the block is used as a snatch block, with no positive locking for the screw, then you are seting up an accident. Ol' Murphy has no forgiveness.

Again, I am not a climber, just offering my one cents worth in trying to prevent accidents. I think you climbers need all the good luck available!!


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## kennertree (Jan 28, 2006)

Yes, it was 100% operator error. On the first chunk i rigged it was screwed in. After that, i never checked it. It should have been checked after every block was lowered. I lowered atleast 10 chunks so in the process of moving the sling down the tree to lower more blocks it came undone. i was using a loopie sling so each time i would undo the loopie so the loopie might have been catching on the bolt each time it passed through the bight and worked it loose. I'm getting a new block this week and im going to make sure its a locking block and im not going with screw type blocks anymore. Anyone using these type of blocks always make sure they are tight. I hope by passing this on it will prevent an accident. Everyone be careful and remember that anything can go wrong even when you do everything right.


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## RedlineIt (Jan 30, 2006)

Hmmm,

Speaking of rotational forces, and looking carefully at the photo kennertree provided, would anyone else say that the lower pulley on this block has NOT been rotating for some length of time?

To me it looks unevenly worn toward the top and the bottom, as if rope has been running over instead of with the pulley. 

Clearly, it would not have contributed to the upper sheive failure, but the unit looks a bit skanked to me


RedlineIt


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## clearance (Jan 30, 2006)

Looks like some big force was on that block to bend it like that. Another question is, if you are lowering logs out of the tree you are in, how do you know the tree (spar) is o.k.? Is it load rated?, spars used in logging have lots of guywires and no one is in the bight when stress is on them. Scary stuff, I like to hammer it down, hack it maybe but safe it is. Think about it.


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## Redbull (Jan 30, 2006)

clearance said:


> Looks like some big force was on that block to bend it like that. Another question is, if you are lowering logs out of the tree you are in, how do you know the tree (spar) is o.k.? Is it load rated?, spars used in logging have lots of guywires and no one is in the bight when stress is on them. Scary stuff, I like to hammer it down, hack it maybe but safe it is. Think about it.



You do a hazard assesment on the tree before you climb it anyway. If rigging is involved, this includes sounding out the spar and drilling if necessary. During residential work, bombing is rarely an option. A good way to upsell a removal is by offering a zero impact removal, which means rigging off the spar.


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## Redbull (Jan 30, 2006)

RedlineIt said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> Speaking of rotational forces, and looking carefully at the photo kennertree provided, would anyone else say that the lower pulley on this block has NOT been rotating for some length of time?
> 
> ...



I have the same pulley and was looking at it last night. I was trying to rotate the lower sheave by hand and it was difficult. Upon further inspection, I found one of the cheek plates was bent. This pulley just got demoted to a redirect.


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## kennertree (Jan 30, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I believe it is the lighting and camera flash that makes it look worn unevenly.
> 
> Dan


Yep, the block is fairly new.


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## Redbull (Jan 30, 2006)

I've only used mine three times and don't remember dropping anything too large on it, but it's tweaked alright. I'll take pics when my wife gets back with the camera. I'm going to order the ISC aluminum blocks. They're light, strong, and easy to use.


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## kennertree (Jan 30, 2006)

clearance said:


> Looks like some big force was on that block to bend it like that. Another question is, if you are lowering logs out of the tree you are in, how do you know the tree (spar) is o.k.? Is it load rated?, spars used in logging have lots of guywires and no one is in the bight when stress is on them. Scary stuff, I like to hammer it down, hack it maybe but safe it is. Think about it.


The log lowered might have weighed 200 pounds, at the most. The reason for the bending of course was the bolt not being threaded in.


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## clearance (Jan 30, 2006)

O.K. pine is pretty heavy wood though. If thats the most anyone hangs, great, hanging big logs involves huge forces that can and have caused spars to fail with sometimes fatal results.


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## Redbull (Jan 31, 2006)

clearance said:


> O.K. pine is pretty heavy wood though. If thats the most anyone hangs, great, hanging big logs involves huge forces that can and have caused spars to fail with sometimes fatal results.



So is Oak, and we do it all the time. It's just like anything else, the proper precautions have to be taken.


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## okietreedude1 (Jan 31, 2006)

Will the guys using the above pulleys please inspect them and post the manufacturer? Im not asking this in a negative conotation to make them look bad, just as a way to see if truly everyone is using the same brand.

If so, the manufacturer needs to be involved in this, regardless of users inspection failures.


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## Redbull (Jan 31, 2006)

I'm using the CMI Steel Block (zinc plated) that Sherrill sells in their sling and block combo. Mine is not bent near as bad as kennertrees, but I haven't loaded it while being unscrewed. It's bent enough that the lower sheave will not rotate freely and you can visibly see one of the cheek plates is deformed. This block has not been abused either, everything I have used it for has been well within it's operating capacities.


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## kennertree (Jan 31, 2006)

cmi makes the block, but when used properly the block is indestructable. One just needs to always make sure the bolt is screwed all the way in on the upper sheeve.


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## Redbull (Jan 31, 2006)

Thats the thing though. I've always checked mine and I have a cheek plate thats deformed. I must have side-loaded it without realizing it.


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## RedlineIt (Feb 2, 2006)

I accept the possibility that the photo flash made the lower pulley look unevenly worn, when in fact it is spinning freely. I was looking at that photo with an extremely critical eye.

I think it is directly on point with the intent of this thread, examine your gear, make sure it is still functioning the way it was intended, every time you put it into play.

And clearance: Can't believe you've been on this board as long as you have and you still have no respect nor understanding for the work we residential arborists do.

Sure, "Bang It Down" is safe for me, no so approved by the client who has these unrealistic concerns revolving around their:

Roof
Gutters
Downspouts
Windows
Greenhouse
Deck (Including rails)
Fence
Pond
Fish Pond
Pool, and poolhouse, cabana
Irigation system, heads and buryed lines
Septic system
Imobile classic automobiles
Grandma's ashes
Prize winning Rhodods or Roses or Rhubarb

clearance, Residential arborists rig up more ingenious systems to take wood out and away from harm than logging has ever needed to.

When there is a safe spot to go big, we do, when it's complicated, we get tricky.

And by the way, pine is not particularly up the scale of wood weights.



RedlineIt


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## clearance (Feb 2, 2006)

Redline-utility removals are way beyond any res. work. Difference being "oh. I wrecked the gutter" To "oh, I am dead" Done lots of res. buddy. Right on the invoice it says- Not responsible for damage to underground installations My old boss puts his guys #1 we take care of everthing on your list while putting ourselves first. If you want to push your luck and risk your life rigging with forces way beyond your possible knowledge thats your call.


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## clearance (Feb 2, 2006)

Further more, regarding your little slag on logging. Loggers have figured out how to yard wood with the most genius systems and made it happen with awesome displays of brilliance and skill. Being in B.C. you should know this. And I don't just bang it down, blocks do land in the same spot from over a 100ft if you do it all the time. I would like to see you rigging down a few 100ft firs, block by fing block, waste of time and effort, specially on a hot day.


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## Redbull (Feb 3, 2006)

clearance said:


> Further more, regarding your little slag on logging. Loggers have figured out how to yard wood with the most genius systems and made it happen with awesome displays of brilliance and skill. Being in B.C. you should know this. And I don't just bang it down, blocks do land in the same spot from over a 100ft if you do it all the time. I would like to see you rigging down a few 100ft firs, block by fing block, waste of time and effort, specially on a hot day.



It's not a wate of time and effort if thats what the customer is paying for. They don't pay us big money to leave craters in their yard. The forces involved with rigging can be predicted if they are understood. If you don't understand the forces involved with rigging, than you are right, that person has no business doing so. 
Also, I agree, mistakes in line clearance work are much less forgiving, but once that limb/log clears the wire, it's bombs away. We don't always have that luxury in residential work. The two really are seperate beasts in their own right.


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## clearance (Feb 3, 2006)

O.K. Brandon I get it, I don't cause damage except to lawns. When the customer wants it and pays way more you get more money, I guess that makes sense.


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## Redbull (Feb 4, 2006)

I think of low impact removals as a sales tool. It's a way to upsell the customer and offer them something that few companies in my area can offer. I really do respect what you do Clearance, but respect is also due to those of us that can remove a monster from someones backyard without leaving a trace of our presence on their property, including no turf damage. 
And to stay on topice here,
DOUBLE CHECK YOU HARDWARE!!


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## Redbull (Feb 4, 2006)

Also, when I worked for Asplundh, it was bombs away there. As long as the lawn was the only thing taking a beating, we didn't care. Our customer was the utility company and they were concerned about production, not relations with their customers.


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## kennertree (Feb 4, 2006)

Redbull said:


> I think of low impact removals as a sales tool. It's a way to upsell the customer and offer them something that few companies in my area can offer. I really do respect what you do Clearance, but respect is also due to those of us that can remove a monster from someones backyard without leaving a trace of our presence on their property, including no turf damage.
> And to stay on topice here,
> DOUBLE CHECK YOU HARDWARE!!


I use it as a sales too also redbull. I also have on my proposals that im not responsible for turf damage unless otherwise stated. If the customer has a really nice yard i suggest the low impact removal. I would rather it be bombs away on every job but when a tree is in the middle of a flower bed and alot of landscaping around bombs away just wont work. I also respect what you do clearance. I have worked on a line crew and i know it can be dangerous but residential is no less dangerous than utility clearance. I find residential to be alot more challenging.


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## RedlineIt (Feb 5, 2006)

clearance,

I


> would like to see you rigging down a few 100ft firs, block by fing block, waste of time and effort, specially on a hot day.



It is faster, and less tiring actually, to rig the spar down in sizeable chunks, safe and sane, and buck it up on the ground, than block it out.



> Loggers have figured out how to yard wood with the most genius systems and made it happen with awesome displays of brilliance and skill. Being in B.C. you should know this.



43 DEATHS in B.C. logging last year. That is a lot of kids with no Daddy, alot of people with no son.

Yeah, I know how it works. Grapple yarder pulling timber dislodges boulders which roll downhill killing the hooktender.

Brilliance and skill? Great gobs of Bovine Excrement.

Death on the jobsite is not my definition of skill.

EVERYONE, Doublecheck your Rig, EVERYTIME you put it in play.


RedlineIt


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## clearance (Feb 5, 2006)

Redline, lets see, blocking a tree down with a 395, or blocking it on the ground with a 395 after you have lowered it all down. So doing all the rigging and bucking it on the ground instead of just pushing of blocks is faster, o.k.. The fatalities in logging are spread out, mostly fallers and truck drivers, not many on the yarding crew. Guys on the yarding crew are dealing with huge wood, steep ground, 1" cables, V12 diesel yarders, 150lb. blocks, way beyond anything arborists do in scale and potential mayhem. Anyways, you are always within 20 minutes of a hospital in the lower mainland, working on flat ground. "Yeah, I know how it works", really? Take it easy guys, maybe you will be more carefull, kind of like I am about one handing after all the discussions here, I would sure feel like a moron if I cut myself one handing now.


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## RedlineIt (Feb 5, 2006)

> lets see, blocking a tree down with a 395, or blocking it on the ground with a 395 after you have lowered it all down. So doing all the rigging and bucking it on the ground instead of just pushing of blocks is faster, o.k..



Of course it is faster. If you have help to lower the sections, you have help to buck them up. I hope I'm not breaking new ground for you here, but two or even three people cutting blocks on the ground are faster than I can do it in the tree.



> Anyways, you are always within 20 minutes of a hospital in the lower mainland, working on flat ground



There's flat ground on the mainland? Who knew? Who cared?


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## RedlineIt (Feb 5, 2006)

EVERYONE, double check your gear EVERYTIME it goes into play.

No slack allowed.

RedlineIt


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## SRT-Tech (May 4, 2007)

that design of sideplate release is a killing waiting to happen. If you cannot see that, well, i urge you to think about what happens when your dropping a log attached to a rope running thru a block. Believe it or not, the block ACTUALLY moves around, twisting sideways, sometimes rotating against the trunk. The way the release handle sticks out, it is very prone to catching on slings, the fissures in the trunk, the rope, or anyhting other object it might encounter. It is way too easy to open it.

Simply put, its a piss poor design.


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## Grace Tree (May 5, 2007)

I bought the same block last year from Sherrill with the sheave locked solidly to the axle. Apparently the assembler had gotten sloppy with the locktite. I needed to use it the next day so I pressed it out and buffed off the residue and reassembled. No troubles since and CMI responded immediately when I contacted them.
Phil


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