# Bar oil?



## Coldfront (Aug 23, 2011)

At work we have a 55 gal. barrel of gear oil synthetic 75W-90 would that be ok for winter or summer bar oil? We also have synthetic straight 50 wt transmission oil. I thought I remembered the oil guy say that the straight 50 synthetic was actually thicker oil than the synthetic 75W-90? We also have 15W-40 motor oil in a bulk tank. With the price of bar oil I can get a good break from work, as in free, just from the excess drip pan.


----------



## mizzou (Aug 23, 2011)

Read on here somewhere recently that bar oil has a viscocity very similar to 30wt motor oil.


----------



## blackdogon57 (Aug 23, 2011)

As long as it is clean unused oil i would give it a try.


----------



## ddemmith (Aug 23, 2011)

Ive use 80-90Synth axle lube recently and it works fine just smells a bit foul. I dont think the saw is too fussy as long as it is not run dry.


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 23, 2011)

Yea I hate the smell of 75w90 the synthetic 50 wt has a much more orderless smell. But when I'm cutting I don't know if I would even notice the smell.


----------



## logging22 (Aug 23, 2011)

Oil thread? Really? Where is Gary when ya need him. He should be along shortly.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Encore (Aug 23, 2011)

I thought auto oils spun off too much to be useful for saws?

Never tried it myself.


----------



## zogger (Aug 23, 2011)

*In the olden daze*



Coldfront said:


> At work we have a 55 gal. barrel of gear oil synthetic 75W-90 would that be ok for winter or summer bar oil? We also have synthetic straight 50 wt transmission oil. I thought I remembered the oil guy say that the straight 50 synthetic was actually thicker oil than the synthetic 75W-90? We also have 15W-40 motor oil in a bulk tank. With the price of bar oil I can get a good break from work, as in free, just from the excess drip pan.



In ye olden daze..all we used was car oil, for the mix and the bar oil. No, I ain't kidding either and it worked. Did that working with some firewood folks for a few years. 

The only two stroke oil I used was in the outboard. Frequently the bar oil for the saws was drained crankcase oil....

Bar oil is built "tacky" to help stick. That's about it. Besides that is is slippery liquid stuff that flows at saw operating temps well. The "green" bar oil you see in the stores is vegetable oil.

If what you are using is too thick, well, it won't flow, you'll see it not oiling the bar and chain, not a swell idea.... too thin, you'll need to be careful and top off your tank more, don't let it run out.

Not saying to use or not use your freebie stuff, just pay attention to how it works for you. For mix though, modern synthetic oil and premium gas all the way. THAT works a lot better than the old dino car oil we used to use, even though the gas was much better then. Lube oil has gotten better, and gasoline sucks now..tradeoff with progress.... Chainsaws used to smoke like a rastafarian convention, you worked bathed in clouds of nastiness, today, pretty much clear, much less visible smoke and less smell, etc, got to be better. Plus they lube better, 50 to 1 proves that. Bar oil by the jug is cheap though, but if you can make that stuff you can get free work for you, whut the heck. don't cost nuthin to try it for a few cuts. Proly maybe too thick for winter, but summer cutting might work fine.


----------



## Johny Utah (Aug 23, 2011)

Encore said:


> I thought auto oils spun off too much to be useful for saws?
> 
> Never tried it myself.



I use 15w40 motor oil from walmart. It was cheaper then the bar oil right next to it on the shelf. Seems to lubricate way better then bar oil and you don't go through as much because you can back off the oil rate a bit. Gear lube is to thick in my opinion. Tranny fluid would be good too because of it's high detergent content and excellent lubricity. I guess if you are an enviro freak you probably won't want to read this thread. lol


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Aug 23, 2011)

Encore said:


> I thought auto oils spun off too much to be useful for saws?
> 
> Never tried it myself.


 
Well I used to think same.. 

And I still think that it is likely so for longer bars.. just what size bar you use likely makes a difference.

We run Stihl in all the saws though (except for the hyradulic ones in bucket truck).. this is where it gets interesting.
Hydraulic saws DO NOT use bar oil at all.. none of them do.. they lubricate the bar and chain by bleeding off a small amount of hydraulic oil from the truck (now with a 45 gallon tank it does not make much difference). But.. they do only have 12 or 14 inch bars for the most part. 

So.. hydraulic oil.. which is not too thick by any standards.. and is even thinner likely when running as it gets warm.. is ok.. in fact designed to be used for the saws. So if it is ok for a hydraulic saw; at what point do you need oil with a sticky additive; and thicker oil; to be one that you should use. 

Now I do not profess to be an oil expert at all, and expect for the longer bars (we have 48" for example on 880's), that the correct oil is better. 

But.. it is not as clear cut as some try to make it out to be.


----------



## Whitespider (Aug 24, 2011)

The few times I've seen a bar sprocket tip burn up was always when the saw was using motor oil, both used and new oil. Maybe that's just coincidence, but for that reason I won't use it... unless I'm out of options and just need "something" for the last few cuts or a short run. And it does "sling off" quite a bit.

I've used 75w/80w-90 before, but it seemed I was continuously dressing the bar. Maybe that was just my imagination, but I stopped using it... besides the stuff stinks when ya' spill it on your cloths. And the stuff is just way too thick for winter use, especially in your NW Wisconsin climate.

I tried automatic transmission fluid for a short time one winter, on a recommendation. Wow! Now that stuff "slings off"! I noticed any small wood chips that got trapped in the bar rail would swell, requiring a bit more determination to remove. And the darned stuff would stain the white parts of my saw a faint pink... A feller just can't have girly pink on his saw.

I really like the bar & chain oils in the Stihl jugs (especially the blue bottle winter grade in cold weather) but I always feel like I've been corn-holed when I fork-out the cash for it. C'mon, are they using gold as an additive? Lately I've been using some stuff from the local fleet store, _*Chain Pro Bar & Chain Oil*_.





The label says for both summer and winter use... (shrug)... I haven't tried it in the winter yet, but seems to work good in warm weather. As far as thickness/tackiness, it appears to be about half-way between the Stihl summer and winter stuff. It sells for 6 bucks, and goes on sale for 5 bucks every now and then. At a buck-twenty-five/buck-fifty a quart it's cheaper than motor oil, 75w-90 or transmission fluid... but it ain't free, and your source is free... (another shrug)

I guess free is relative... if it wears bars, sprockets or chains at a faster rate, or ruins cloths, or makes your truck stink, or stains your saw girly pink... Is it still free?


----------



## redoakneck (Aug 24, 2011)

I have heard to add 10% kerosene to the thicker oils to thin them out. I bet that adds to the smell. I bought some cheap gear oil 80w-90 to get the cool squeeze bottle to use to fill my saws. Not sure what I will use the gear oil for. I like tractor supply bar and chain oil. 7 bucks


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 24, 2011)

Well we also have hydraulic oil in bulk. I didn't think of that. I can try making a concoction of Synth 50w, 15w40 and hydraulic oil, its free, and none of it is stinky like the 75w 90. So even if I burn up a bar and chain it will pay for itself. The store bought stuff I use now summer bar oil from the Husky dealer, I use one fill up of bar oil for every tank of gas, so if I get it about the same consistency and use the same amount of oil it's worth a try. I can still grease the sprocket at the end of the bar by itself.


----------



## rwbinbc (Aug 24, 2011)

I tried used motor oil a few years ago and it worked but I ended up with more oil on Me than the bar. I use the tsc bar and chain oil, $6 on sale or $6.99 normal. Your chain gets hot, The cutters dull faster. I use a 441 and 260 with the oilers cranked. It uses a whole tank of oil per tank of gas. I think I get almost 4 cords of wood per gallon of bar oil. $1.75 per cord for oil. I would stick with bar oil.


----------



## Whitespider (Aug 24, 2011)

Coldfront said:


> ...So even if I burn up a bar and chain it will pay for itself...



Really?... ...Really?... ...At 5-6 bucks a gallon at the fleet store I can buy around 12-15 gallons of bar & chain oil for the same price of a new bar and chain, and those 12-15 gallon will cut somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-70 cord of firewood. How do you figure it will pay for itself? If it burns up a bar and chain while you're using the first gallon of the "free" stuff, how can you possibly figure it will pay for itself? The way I figure it I would need to use at least 13 gallon of "free" stuff before the bar burned up before I could even think I'd broke-even. Fact is, I've never worn out a bar... worn out a few drive sprockets and the cutters on dozens of chains, but never a bar. Heck man, my Stihl 16" bar has cut so much wood there isn't a speck of paint left on it, it's just bright shiny steel (it's on its second saw)... My 20" is just as old but I don't use it near as much, still has lots of paint on it.


----------



## rwbinbc (Aug 24, 2011)

I've gone through a couple bars, But from being bent or pinched really bad. When cutting wood things happen. I use the same 3/8" bar on the 441 and the 260, The 325 bar still looks new.


----------



## Wood Doctor (Aug 25, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> Really?... ...Really?... ...At 5-6 bucks a gallon at the fleet store I can buy around 12-15 gallons of bar & chain oil for the same price of a new bar and chain, and those 12-15 gallon will cut somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-70 cord of firewood. How do you figure it will pay for itself? If it burns up a bar and chain while you're using the first gallon of the "free" stuff, how can you possibly figure it will pay for itself? The way I figure it I would need to use at least 13 gallon of "free" stuff before the bar burned up before I could even think I'd broke-even. Fact is, I've never worn out a bar... worn out a few drive sprockets and the cutters on dozens of chains, but never a bar. Heck man, my Stihl 16" bar has cut so much wood there isn't a speck of paint left on it, it's just bright shiny steel (it's on its second saw)... My 20" is just as old but I don't use it near as much, still has lots of paint on it.


+1. I also use that same brand of bar oil and have never had trouble with it, winter or summer. For $5 to $6 a gallon, you cannot beat it. Loggers also use it and to my knowledge, they have never complained. A few have said that they would like it to be a little more tacky for summer work, but in the winter, that can work against you. This brand appears to be an excellent compromise and far superior to any motor oil that usually ends up costing more.


----------



## AIM (Aug 25, 2011)

I've used a little bit of everything over the years. I can't really think of one that worked any better than another. I typically will use regular bar oil though just because it can be found cheaper than anything else. (I haven't bought any this year though)
Of course if I had a source for free oil I would likely try it and see.

I have no proof to back this up but I think bar oil is just rejected lubricating oil that they add a tacky mix in and sell it as bar oil.


----------



## ponyexpress976 (Aug 25, 2011)

Our local newspaper (has a heavy global warming lean) just published an article about using old motor oil for a bar oil substitute. The author recomends getting the car warm before changing the oil and then immediately running it through a couple coffee filters. Something tells me that the coffee filters aren't pulling to many particles out of the oil. I've used motor oil, tranny fluid, even thick gear oil all in a pinch. Just have to keep an eye on it more so and if your oiler has an adjustment turn it in/out accordingly.


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 25, 2011)

I have replaced one bar in my life and that was because it got bent. the bar chain combo was about $35 I don't know what makes people think bar oil is so special. It is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use. the synthetic 50 wt transmission oil is very expensive stuff and it seems to hold semi truck transmissions together for hundreds of thousands of miles, I'm sure the bar won't mind it.


----------



## Whitespider (Aug 25, 2011)

Coldfront said:


> I don't know what makes people think bar oil is so special. It is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use. the synthetic 50 wt transmission oil is very expensive stuff and it seems to hold semi truck transmissions together for hundreds of thousands of miles, I'm sure the bar won't mind it.



Ya’ just gotta’ love statements like that.

Transmissions are bathed in oil and their parts aren’t dragged through dry medium (like wood) as they’re being used. Transmissions also don’t subject the oil to near the same centrifugal force (sling-off). Transmissions use precession mated parts and ball/roller bearings. All oils lubricate, but the demands placed on oils used in different applications vary considerably; that’s why we have different types of oils, uniquely blended with their own special additives to match specific requirements. If synthetic 50 wt transmission oil is such great stuff, why don’t you use it in everything… like the rear axle of your car, or in your air compressor?

The problem with oils that sling-off (not enough tackifier additives) is they leave the underside of the bar under-lubricated. Oils without enough film strength additives get wiped from the chain as it cuts, causing a gummy resin like build-up on the cutters. All the while the oil needs to have the proper viscosity to flow through pump, yet remain in the groove and keep the chain/bar cool. And the oil needs to perform all these functions between the sloppiest fit of chain-to-bar, under huge temperature swings, using just a thin film of oil between bar and chain. A comparison of the performance characteristics of transmission oil to bar oil is ridiculous… and the same goes for motor oil, hydraulic oil, or what-have-you. You might as well compare 80w-90 gear lube to power steering fluid.

Now about the belief that bar oil “_is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use._”
Let’s just take a look at what some of the producers/marketers of chain and bar oil say about that;

Bailey’s - …premium bar oil, made from 100 percent virgin blended stocks. …100 percent new and not used or "reclaimed".
Chevron/Texaco - … tacky, tough, lubricants made from special high viscosity base oils…
Hi-Tech Oils - … made from a blend of high quality base stocks and selected additives…
Everclear - Made in the U.S.A in small closely monitored batches to ensure quality control.
Stihl - … a semi-synthetic high performance lubricant made from high quality base oils (refined oils)…
Caltex - … made from highly refined high viscosity index base oils…
Lubriplate - … a unique blend of the finest refined petroleum stocks and additives available…
Yep, sounds like rejected junk to me.


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 25, 2011)

So there is no tackyness in transmission oil?? Right! You think there is some super secret additive in bar oil the scientists at NASA are working on.


----------



## Whitespider (Aug 25, 2011)

I did not say there was no tack additive in transmission oil... or in any oil for that matter.
And I don't believe NASA has anything to do with it.

Believe what you want and use what you want... 

But making a comparison between oil engineered for a transmission and oil engineered for anything else, including a chainsaw bar, is folly.

What if it was the other way around, and I was recommending the use of bar oil in your transmission? You'd believe me to be an idiot, wouldn't you?

Soooo..... tell me... if one is good for the other, why can't it be the other way around? Why are the specific lubrication requirements more critical for one machine than the other? Why is it OK to use a different-than-specified lubricant in one machine, but not the other? If 80w-120 '_seems to hold semi truck rear axles together for hundreds of thousands of miles_', it should be perfect for my air compressor instead of the specified 10w compressor oil, correct?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Aug 25, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> Really?... ...Really?... ...At 5-6 bucks a gallon at the fleet store I can buy around 12-15 gallons of bar & chain oil for the same price of a new bar and chain, and those 12-15 gallon will cut somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-70 cord of firewood. How do you figure it will pay for itself? If it burns up a bar and chain while you're using the first gallon of the "free" stuff, how can you possibly figure it will pay for itself? The way I figure it I would need to use at least 13 gallon of "free" stuff before the bar burned up before I could even think I'd broke-even. Fact is, I've never worn out a bar... worn out a few drive sprockets and the cutters on dozens of chains, but never a bar. Heck man, my Stihl 16" bar has cut so much wood there isn't a speck of paint left on it, it's just bright shiny steel (it's on its second saw)... My 20" is just as old but I don't use it near as much, still has lots of paint on it.


 
Well; he was speaking of hydraulic oil. Now hydraulic saws are designed by the manafactuer to use hydraulic and ONLY hydraulic oil as the bar & chain lubricant. The last one I bought is an ADI; but has an Oregon bar and chain on it. Now the bars are short; perhaps 14 inches at best on most of them; the saws are rated at 6.5 HP (or almost 5kW) which is not too bad on that size bar  That is assuming you have the hydraulic power to push the saw of course.

I am not sure how it would work on a 28 inch bar as an example.. but suspect you could stretch it out to 20 inches without much issue on lubrication.


----------



## Whitespider (Aug 25, 2011)

TreeClimber57-

A hydraulic powered chainsaw is a different animal, motor RPM and chain speed is typically less than half that of a 2-cycle gasoline powered saw. A hydraulic powered chainsaw runs around 5000-6500 RPM, a gasoline powered saw runs 12,500-15,000 RPM. The lubrication requirements in both quantity and quality are not comparable... less heat, friction, centrifugal force, etc. Like the difference between a bicycle chain and a motorcycle chain.

But, I'm giving up on this. Some people just get the idea that oil is just oil, they have no clue how much engineering goes into lubricants designed for each specific application. Besides, I'm sure their Pa' just poured crop oil in his saw and never had a problem... so anything with the word "oil" or "lube" on the can should be just fine. Maybe a mix of powdered graphite, corn oil and Kay-Y jelly......


----------



## AIM (Aug 26, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> Now about the belief that bar oil “_is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use._”
> Let’s just take a look at what some of the producers/marketers of chain and bar oil say about that;
> 
> Bailey’s - …premium bar oil, made from 100 percent virgin blended stocks. …100 percent new and not used or "reclaimed".
> ...



It sure does to me. 
Every one of those claims says "oils, blends, stocks, PLURAL". 
Reads to me like they are using different oils that likely did NOT meet the specs for the original intended purpose and blending them together to get the viscosity they want, adding tacky stuff and waalaa. You have bar oil.
I'm sure they are all new oils.
No doubt they are high quality base stock.
No doubt they are made in closely monitored batches.

I just think that they are "rejects". And they should be. Lubricating a bar is pretty crude stuff in comparison to lubing a diesel engine in a bulldozer.
No one is saying that these oils aren't fit to start a bonfire with. I'm just willing to bet that it is all made with oil that missed whatever mark it was originally intended but never the less. WAY more than adequate for lubing up a chainsaw bar.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Aug 26, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> A hydraulic powered chainsaw is a different animal, motor RPM and chain speed is typically less than half that of a 2-cycle gasoline powered saw. A hydraulic powered chainsaw runs around 5000-6500 RPM, a gasoline powered saw runs 12,500-15,000 RPM. The lubrication requirements in both quantity and quality are not comparable... less heat, friction, centrifugal force, etc. Like the difference between a bicycle chain and a motorcycle chain.


 
Ah thanks for info makes sense to me. I was wondering how it was doing the job; as a lot thinner oil than the Stihl I use on all other saws.

I still only use the Stihl oil in saws (other than if I happen to run out then will buy what I can find for one container). 

We use daily and on professional basis; the reliability of the saws is too important to mess around for the sake of a few cents. And frankly the ones who tend to be the cheapest in this area; are the ones who use the least!! I have a friend who uses used motor oil ?! But, realistically I doubt he would use one large container of Stihl oil in a year. So.. using that little I guess he also would not notice any difference in wear on his bar using that oil either.. Says he has been doing for years.. and has same bar as well for those same years.


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 26, 2011)

It's funny how if you want to start a big argument here all you need to do is start a topic about bar oil.


----------



## zogger (Aug 26, 2011)

*Degrees*



Whitespider said:


> TreeClimber57-
> 
> A hydraulic powered chainsaw is a different animal, motor RPM and chain speed is typically less than half that of a 2-cycle gasoline powered saw. A hydraulic powered chainsaw runs around 5000-6500 RPM, a gasoline powered saw runs 12,500-15,000 RPM. The lubrication requirements in both quantity and quality are not comparable... less heat, friction, centrifugal force, etc. Like the difference between a bicycle chain and a motorcycle chain.
> 
> But, I'm giving up on this. Some people just get the idea that oil is just oil, they have no clue how much engineering goes into lubricants designed for each specific application. Besides, I'm sure their Pa' just poured crop oil in his saw and never had a problem... so anything with the word "oil" or "lube" on the can should be just fine. Maybe a mix of powdered graphite, corn oil and Kay-Y jelly......



I think the real question was rather innocent and wondering, that's all. Of course purposeful designed anything for a task is the best, but sometimes you might have a "good enough" solution.

Not oil related, but what I am getting at: few weeks ago I was working on a rotary mower, needed a real big crescent wrench or box wrench...didn't have one that size. I *did* have decent access to the nut and bolt, so I used a Moncke wrench on it, a pipe wrench. Perfect and designed for that, nope, did it work good enough, yep.


----------



## Wood Doctor (Aug 26, 2011)

*Bar Oil is Important*



Coldfront said:


> It's funny how if you want to start a big argument here all you need to do is start a topic about bar oil.


That's correct. And, that's because very few chainsaw operators know very much about bar oil and certainly much less than WhiteSpider does. WhiteSpider knows what he is talking about. 

I've repaired lots of chainsaws damaged by owners using lousy bar oil. They love using crankcase oil because they don't know what to do with leftover crankcase oil. So, they feed that crap to their chainsaw. Then they beg me to give them a discount on the repairs. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 27, 2011)

But yet it seems like most will buy the cheapest bar oil they can find. As long as it says bar oil on the jug they will buy it and use it. The synthetic transmission oil I was was talking about is hardly cheap oil, probably 2 or 3 or more times the price of good bar oil per gallon, but I can get it free. I never said one word about using used drain oil.


----------



## Whitespider (Aug 27, 2011)

I guess I don’t get your reasoning *Coldfront*.
Just because it’s expensive transmission oil it will make good bar oil? Does that mean that cheap transmission oil won’t? I buy my favorite gun oil in tiny little 4 oz bottles for like 5 bucks… that would be over $150.oo a gallon… so that must be even better bar oil, right? Or how about the K&N oil I buy for my high-performance motorcycle air filter, about 15 bucks for 8 oz… that stuff is real tacky and comes to almost $250.oo a gallon… so that would probably be the best bar oil I’ve got, right?

Ya’ see, transmission oil is engineered to provide the lubricating properties required of a transmission, under the *type* of stresses a transmission imposes on the oil. If you remember, back in the day, there were two major types of automatic transmission oil… Type F and Dexron. Ford transmissions (and some Jeep/Ramble) used the Type F, and near all others used the Dexron. The two oils looked the same, smelled the same, felt the same, even cost the same… but if you put the wrong one in your transmission you could expect less than 100-miles until catastrophic failure. The difference was in the engineering, the difference was the lubricating requirements of each transmission and *type* of stresses each placed on the oil, the deference was the friction modifier additive used in each oil. If you bought the most expensive Dexron you could find and put it in your Ford, you killed it… you were much better off using the cheapest Type F you could find... heck, you were better off with old, used Type F.

Just because oil is expensive doesn’t make it good oil for anything except what it was engineered for.
Even the cheapest bar oil makes a better bar oil than the most expensive gun oil, or air filter oil.
The lubricating requirements of a chainsaw bar and chain, the stresses imposed on the oil, and the conditions that oil must perform under are extremely unique… I can’t think of any other machine that compares…

So, if y’all wan’ta go on thinking that bar oil is just cheap crap, and anything else is just as good or better… I guess it’s no skin off my nose… but you’re fooling yourselves. That expensive 50w synthetic transmission oil might work, but I guarantee your taking a performance hit somewhere… maybe in bar life, chain life, power loss, or even how often you have to sharpen the cutters. It’s been my experience in life that cutting corner has always been more expensive in the end.

But, I guess I did say I was done with this thread… didn’t I?


----------



## Johny Utah (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't think there is much engineering involved in bar oil. It isn't as critical as keeping engine bearings floating on a film of oil in any condition. Canola oil has no engineering involved except as an oil seed and it works just like bar oil and it's cheap.


----------



## Coldfront (Aug 27, 2011)

Comparing automatic transmission fluid that drives friction clutch discs to power a automatic transmissions to bar oil is silly. This 50 wt is for fuller 10 speed manual transmissions and my bet is that it would surpass wal-mart bar oil in performance by far. You seem to some kind of self proclaimed expert on bar oil but I doubt you know anything about the oil I am talking about.


----------

