# Pine Sap on the flipline.



## polingspig (Jan 6, 2007)

What is the best way to get pine sap off of a wirecore flip line? Least harm done to core and rope, etc.


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## moray (Jan 6, 2007)

*Denatured Alcohol*



polingspig said:


> What is the best way to get pine sap off of a wirecore flip line? Least harm done to core and rope, etc.



For the last year, ever since my can of acetone ran out, I have been using hardware store denatured alcohol (ethanol with about 4% methanol denaturant). I rub it on with a palm-sized piece of soft rag dampened with the alcohol. The result is that most of the volatile components of the pitch probably end up in the rag, as they are the first to dissolve, so the tackiness of the remaining pitch is reduced or eliminated even when some is still visible. The alcohol will dissolve all of the pitch, but undoubtedly some significant portion simply migrates deeper into the rope. After rubbing out several pitch spots, I throw away the rag.
I don't think it makes any difference if the flipline is wirecore or not. You want a something that will dissolve pine pitch but not harm the rope. I have checked earlier threads on this topic, and people are justifiably nervous about applying chemicals to their ropes. However, don't ignore the fact that pitch is made of chemicals that could potentially harm the rope (I don't think it does). Why am I confident that alcohol is doing little or no harm to my rope?
1. I have been doing it regularly on all my ropes and lanyards for over a year (I climb a lot of pitchy pines). There is no visible sign of damage and the ropes still perform perfectly.
2. From my knowledge of chemistry (can you tell? I have a degree in chemistry) I don't see any reason the extremely long polymer chains in nylon, polyester, or spectra (polyethylene) should be affected by small-molecule solvents like ethanol and methanol.
3. I have a bottle on my counter containing rope strands from 3 of my ropes (nylon core from Arbormaster, polyester fibers from Treemaster 3-strand, and spectra from Zing-It.) The bottle is full of denatured alcohol, and has been sitting there for about 10 days. There has been no visible change. The very finest strands are still standing out sharp and clear. If something bad was happening, they should be the first to change shape or disappear.
4. The rope manufacturers indicate that the fibers I mentioned are resistant to chemicals, though for legal reasons they are pretty vague about it. Very strong chemicals, especially oxidizing agents, would probably, in some cases, certainly, attack our plastic ropes, but we are talking about a different class of chemicals here.

Alcohol certainly won't attack the rope in the chemical sense of breaking chemical bonds. It MIGHT be capable of dissolving a very minor amount of the rope mass, but because the alcohol quickly evaporates, even that, if it occurs, might be completely reversible.

Even though I am convinced at this point that cleaning rope with alcohol is for all practical purposes completely harmless, I have one final test to perform to lay the matter to rest. I will see if I can perform a rough test to compare the tensile strength of the fibers that have soaked in alcohol with similar fibers that have not. Stay tuned--I'll report back.


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## polingspig (Jan 6, 2007)

What about petroleum based products? I've read that wd 40 will remove sap. Never tried it. I have used GoJo and it works, but I am not sure what happens to the rope.


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## moray (Jan 6, 2007)

polingspig said:


> What about petroleum based products? I've read that wd 40 will remove sap. Never tried it. I have used GoJo and it works, but I am not sure what happens to the rope.



I have used hot GoJo, followed by hot dishwater, all helped along with a rolling pin, to get cat piss out of a rug. It worked. There was a faint odor of kerosene left when I was done, which leads me to think kerosene is one of the components of GoJo. But I don't really know what else is in GoJo so I don't have a lot of confidence that it is safe. There might even be some bleach-like compounds in it, which would not be good. 

Also, the petroleum-based products tend to be fairly non-volatile, meaning the components are large molecules. These are going to stick around in your rope for a long time. The two alcohols in denatured alcohol are gone from your rope within half an hour or less.

I like to experiment around with friction knots and different elements of climbing gear, but I don't plan to fool around experimenting with other chemicals to clean rope--not when alcohol works so well and appears to be perfectly harmless.


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## polingspig (Jan 6, 2007)

I have never used anything but woolite to clean my ropes. The GoJo was used only on the wirecore flipline, and that was last week. I won't do it again. By the way, what characteristic of alcohol is removed when it is "denatured"?


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## moray (Jan 6, 2007)

"Denatured" is a funny word to mean "render unfit for drinking." Really, it is about the taxman getting his due. The formulas for making denatured alcohol are many, but they are all undrinkable, and all of them are designed to make it very costly to remove all the poisons to retrieve the good drinkable ethanol. It is cheaper to buy expensive booze than to clean up cheap denatured alcohol.


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## clearance (Jan 6, 2007)

polingspig said:


> What is the best way to get pine sap off of a wirecore flip line? Least harm done to core and rope, etc.



Nothing, I mean it. I have got pine pitch on my steelcores, balsam fir pitch, spruce pitch, no big deal, it goes away.


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## PowersTree (Jan 6, 2007)

Not sure about getting it off of your ropes but I do know that when ya wanna get it off of your hands use Mayonaise (sp). Use real mayonaise not miracle whip.....it works better.


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## hugashe (Jan 6, 2007)

http://store.baileys-online.com/cgi..._id=EULasmf4&mv_more_ip=1&mv_nextpage=results Pine Tar Solvent 
Item No: 17088 that should do it.


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## beowulf343 (Jan 7, 2007)

Why is pine pitch on a steelcore a problem in the first place? It wears off with use.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 7, 2007)

I leave mine as-is, too. However, I called Sampson rope last year to ask how to get pine pitch off climbing ropes. They put an engineeer on the line and he told me acetone. Non-reactive with all synthetic rope materials. Drop the rope in a 5 gal bucket and pour on the solvent until submerged. Hang to dry, but not in the sun.

As far as a steelcore flipline, acetone won't affect the metal.


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## (WLL) (Jan 7, 2007)

*tecnu oak & ivy oil stripping soap*



polingspig said:


> What is the best way to get pine sap off of a wirecore flip line? Least harm done to core and rope, etc.



tecnu oak and ivy soap works great. it is an oil stripper and i use on my hands to get sap off. it is very mild and should be fine on rope. they say it does not harm fabrics and works on pets,laundry and tools.

directions-saturate contaminated,unwetted tool with tecnu. massage saturated rope heavily. let the tool sit 4 5-10mins. fill a bucket with hot water. put tool in hot water and wash throughly until clean. rinse with cold water. let the tool dry.


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## moray (Jan 8, 2007)

*Acetone vs Alcohol*



Tree Machine said:


> I leave mine as-is, too. However, I called Sampson rope last year to ask how to get pine pitch off climbing ropes. They put an engineeer on the line and he told me acetone. Non-reactive with all synthetic rope materials. Drop the rope in a 5 gal bucket and pour on the solvent until submerged. Hang to dry, but not in the sun.
> 
> As far as a steelcore flipline, acetone won't affect the metal.



I think acetone is a fine solution if you want to be really conservative, especially since Samson certified that it won't harm ropes. But it is quite noticeably slower than alcohol and the fumes are much more poisonous to breathe.

Acetone and alcohol are very similar as solvents, and if one doesn't hurt the rope neither will the other. However, denatured alcohol contains other poisons besides methanol (in small amounts), and if you aren't sure what they are, you aren't sure what they are doing to your rope. 

I just tested the fibers that I had soaking in alcohol for 10 days, and I can't tell any difference between the treated and untreated fibers. But it was a very rough test on just two fibers at a time. A larger number of fibers would simply slip through my fingers, and my fine needle nose pliers wouldn't grip anything less than a large bundle of fibers. The treated fibers are still shiny, just like the untreated ones, which would indicate the surface of the fibers had not been eroded by the solvent.

If you go the acetone route, forget about the 5 gal bucket!! What a waste! That's also a huge and unnecessary slug of acetone to release into the environment. A small rag dampened with acetone will easily deal with the problem.


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## VTclimber (Jan 8, 2007)

I know for hands Purell works pretty well, but its really just the alcohol at work. I use rubbing alcohol to get sap off of clothing....I would think something along that line would work the best and have the least effect on your rope.


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## polingspig (Jan 8, 2007)

> Why is pine pitch on a steelcore a problem in the first place? It wears off with use.



It was making my Prusik adjuster annoying.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 10, 2007)

> If you go the acetone route, forget about the 5 gal bucket!! What a waste! That's also a huge and unnecessary slug of acetone to release into the environment. A small rag dampened with acetone will easily deal with the problem.


Fully agreed, Moray. I was just passing info suggested by Sampson. It's good to know just wiping with a soaked rag will do it. Acetone evaporates really fast, is soluble in water and will take water with it when it evaporates. In other words, it has the tendency to dry out your hands. Rubber gloves are recommended, and definitely, avoid breathing.



polingspig said:


> It was making my Prusik adjuster annoying.


Sap doesn't affect a micrograb adjuster, which is the only reason I've never cleaned a wirecore. Sap does forever change the flipline's color, but so does your first climb in the rain.

Thanks for your tests, Moray. 

Our ropes are usually polyethylene. Acetone is stored commonly in polyethylene bottles. It's quite flammable, too.


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## gumneck (Jan 11, 2007)

Hey TM,

He's probably got a double ended wire core with prussic like me. I use one to help reduce my own stupid factor. When sap gets on the two(wire core and prussic) adjustment is futile if you can't get weight off your line(another good reason to set a safety line). I know you know all about that. 

I'd like to come up with a better adjuster with still being able to use the double ended flip. 

I've been using GooBGone(just a light dose on heavy spots) on mine, followed by hand soap and water with a quick scrub using nylon bristle brush. Can clean both in about 10 minutes.


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## Sultan of Swing (Jan 11, 2007)

Very informative and interesting, thanks Moray!


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## Magnum783 (Mar 25, 2007)

I think I may give this a try using the acetone that is. I have a real problem with pine pitch out here in NC. I do most of my work in what used to be a tree farm and now is a housing develpment. I had 14 Lob lolly pines in my back yard when I moved in and my backyard is only 200'x200'. Needless to say there are a few that are gone now. Has anyone else tried useing the acetone and had good results? I agree with Polling Pig I use a distel on my lanyard and it was a pain to adjust after it got covered. Glad I had a line in place too.
Jared


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## fast*st (Jul 16, 2007)

Thanks for the perfect topic as to my question. I am trimming up a 
triple pine, I did most of the trimming last week and left the line in 
place at about 120 feet up, I started up to complete the work and 
the line is soaked with pitch, my bad... 

I was thinking of putting all 250 feet in a 5 gal pail of alcohol, let it
soak for an afternoon then put it in an onion bag and give it a run 
through a big washing machine to make sure all the dirt and grit 
gets washed out. I'd figure that the pail should be good for a few 
soakings so just put a lid on it and keep it aside. 

Does the onion bag sound crazy or could it be a good idea for washing
ropes in the washing machine?



French prussiks love wads of pine pitch!

-Jason


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## bruce56BB (Jul 16, 2007)

butter!
i don't know if it will work on ropes, but it works great on your hands.


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## polingspig (Jul 16, 2007)

The Acetone worked great for me. It didn't take much either.


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## moray (Jul 16, 2007)

fast*st said:


> I was thinking of putting all 250 feet in a 5 gal pail of alcohol, let it
> soak for an afternoon then put it in an onion bag and give it a run
> through a big washing machine to make sure all the dirt and grit
> gets washed out. I'd figure that the pail should be good for a few
> ...



Let's do some simple math. 250 feet of 1/2 in rope has a volume of roughly 2 gallons. Once you stuff it in the bucket, you have room for about 3 gallons of alcohol. Leave enough room to move stuff around, and you have 2 gallons of alcohol and 2 gallons of rope. Let's say the rope has space between the fibers amounting to, say, 20% of its volume (this would be a lot less if the rope were under tension). So 0.4 gallons space in the rope. Of the 2 gallons of alcohol, .4 gallons ends up in the rope, or 20%. Since the pitch all ends up dissolved in the alcohol, 20% of the pitch remains in the rope, and 80% ends up in the bucket.

If on some subsequent day you decide to wash the rope again, in the same alcohol, but the rope is only 1/5 as dirty as the first time, the acohol won't clean it at all because it is exactly as dirty as the rope.

What's more, if you immerse the rope in alcohol, whether for the 1st time or the nth time, perfectly clean sections of rope will become impregnated with pitch.

The method I described earlier using a small (3" X 3") rag, is probably a little better. It won't sully clean sections of rope. You can throw away the rag when it gets dirty and pick up another one. You can get by with very little alcohol (I have used less than 3 quarts in 2 years, and I clean my rope and split tail almost every time I climb). But this method also will leave some pitch in the rope.

What happens to the pitch left in the rope? Since it was dissolved in the alcohol, and is left behind when the alcohol evaporates, it is distributed through the rope in a very thin film, probably only a few molecules thick. In this condition is would be very prone to oxidation because it would have an enormous surface area and because it (mostly various forms of terpenes) is full of double bonds, which are easy for oxygen to attack. The products of oxidation would almost certainly be various aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, and carboxylic acids, none of which should harm the rope, none of which should be tacky, and many of which would probably evaporate away or fall away as harmless powder. My guess is that this acceleration of oxidative degradation, rather than actual cleaning of the rope, is the major effect of cleaning the rope with alcohol or acetone.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 16, 2007)




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## fast*st (Jul 17, 2007)

That all makes perfect sense regarding the dirty washwater data, 
though alcohol is pretty cheap, I wouldn't have a problem using the
leftover alcohol for something else. I've got about 200 feet of rope 
that's badly drenched with pitch, I'd say of it there is the remaining
50' that's clean, and the 200' is about 50-60% covered, I left it up 
for a couple days after doing most of the trimming and the tree just
poured a lot of sap onto the line over a couple 90+ degree days.
Seems like a bad idea to leave good rope airborne. will swap for 
cheezy polypropylene next time. 

What about washing rope in general, to get any grit out of it to 
extend the life? Its done in the fire/rescue service when lines
get dirty. 

Thanks again for the info
-Jason


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## joesawer (Jul 17, 2007)

The alcohol breaks down the pitch and makes it so that the soap will wash it out. Use a seine net type of laundry bag, Do not wash a rope in a front load washer with a plastic window, make sure it is glass. 
Try alcohol on the pitch in your clothes that has been washed and dried and you swear it will never come out, just wet it with alcohol and throw it in the washer.


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## Sassafras (Jul 17, 2007)

Peanut butter works great 
massage it in rinse with water or wash with mild soapy water if you don't like the smell of PB
Best of all peanut butter won't kill your brain cells like alchohol and acetone


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## Tree Machine (Jul 18, 2007)

Sass, you just stepped into the mouth of the flame dragon......


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## Tree Machine (Jul 18, 2007)

I have to call you out on a troll.

Trollmeister.

Trolling on the basis of impracticality, not necessarily mistruth.


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## Sassafras (Jul 18, 2007)

:notrolls2:


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## fast*st (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm not sure where I could get a 5 gallon pail of peanut butter
except for maybe the local school cafeteria. Alcohol is cheap
for now. I do like the idea of spot treatment, glob of pitch, use
a soaked rag to wipe it down. I've got a nice mesh bag and when
I'm done with this one tree, I'll soak then wash this rope before 
tucking it safely back in its rope bag. 

Of course used alcohol could be handy when it comes down to 
brush burning season. At least nobody suggested to use lard.



-Jason


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