# Getting my 25 acre wood lot timbered this winter



## xraydaniel (Oct 29, 2021)

I have a timber sale coming up with a selective cut on my plot and a 2-3 acre clear cut. Due to such a wet season it’s happening this winter. I have 10% wetlands in there that are not being touched but some of the fingers running to it do have some seasonal wet areas. It’s about 75 percent hardwood with an Oak/Beech component. A smathering of red maple, black cherry, yellow birch, and smaller amounts of poplar. The softwoods comprise the other 25 percent with ewp, hemlock, and like one or 2 spruces lol. Beeches are mostly all dying with beechbark disease.

Red oaks and Ewp dominate on the highlands and are of excellent quality with about 1k-2k trees per acre if I remember correctly. I have the management plan somewhere around. Current successional forest is about 80yrs old. Last timbering was done around 40’s-50’s maybe around the storm events in this area.

Any thoughts from you guys on recent cuts you’ve seen or done and what mills in the NE Usa are paying for stumpage? I hear they’re hungry for timber. What’s the sentiment like at this stage for timber jobs on smaller wood lots? Would it be better to wait another 1-2 years for another jump in inflation?

Just a few recent pics of a lowland cart path cuz everyone loves pictures. This doesn’t represent the highland stand. There are quite a number of quad oak stump sprouts with 24-30” logs a piece up there. The gift that keeps on giving.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 29, 2021)

the term "timbered" is a new one to me... 

Anyway, I'm not an east coast guy, nor do I claim to know much about it, however, skookum is that hardwood prices are down all over, and have been for some time, I don't see them coming up much if at all. 

That said, best time to harvest is generally dictated by the trees themselves, markets be damned, especially with hardwoods as they have a limited life span even when healthy. If your beeches are already diseased, its time for them to go while there is still useable wood in them, wait too long and they are completely valueless. 

As for finding a local mill, google is your friend, or search for logging/land clearing companies, but get a bunch of quotes if possible, and just cause a guy can be there next week, doesn't necessarily mean he's the best choice, the good loggers will be in demand, they may not be the best bid, but they will likely do a better job and in the end get you more money. 

Beware any that offer to buy the timber outright, if you can go with someone that will pay you or better have the mill pay you a percentage or x amount per volume, even if that initial outright payment seems like a lot of money... its probably not what its worth.


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## Jackbnimble (Oct 29, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> I have a timber sale coming up with a selective cut on my plot and a 2-3 acre clear cut. Due to such a wet season it’s happening this winter. I have 10% wetlands in there that are not being touched but some of the fingers running to it do have some seasonal wet areas. It’s about 75 percent hardwood with an Oak/Beech component. A smathering of red maple, black cherry, yellow birch, and smaller amounts of poplar. The softwoods comprise the other 25 percent with ewp, hemlock, and like one or 2 spruces lol. Beeches are mostly all dying with beechbark disease.
> 
> Red oaks and Ewp dominate on the highlands and are of excellent quality with about 1k-2k trees per acre if I remember correctly. I have the management plan somewhere around. Current successional forest is about 80yrs old. Last timbering was done around 40’s-50’s maybe around the storm events in this area.
> 
> ...


Nice stuff, man. And luvin it.


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## xraydaniel (Oct 30, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> the term "timbered" is a new one to me...
> 
> Anyway, I'm not an east coast guy, nor do I claim to know much about it, however, skookum is that hardwood prices are down all over, and have been for some time, I don't see them coming up much if at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. “Timbered” just means a wood lot that’s cut: clear or selective. It could be made up by me! This will probably be a mill tally and I have the option to choose a bulk bid or just simply go with my forester’s choice whom I trust. I’m only asking for the roads to be combed. The plan is to take the low quality timber this time. This company does do that and I like a combed road for future entertainment. Slash can be left on site. I like to forage mushrooms and slash creates great opportunity for that. I’m looking for maximum revinue. We have two options here. Either mill tally or bulk bid. Timber goes to the mill while tallied and check gets cut on actual tally. Whole lot job can be bid for a price but I don’t really trust that way and I don’t want the low bidder nor a guesstimate on stand value. I feel it’s always best to establish a relationship since in another 10 years I will be “timbering” the stand that’s left with an expanded canopy, thickened trunks, and growing money. According to my forester mills are hungry. China was the biggest consumer of NE hardwoods. Look at what the commies are doing now though. Growth is stagnating. Xi is consolidating power. They are barely able to buy enough coal, lng, and oil on the open market to sustain the factory output. It’s not looking good so maybe a year down the road we may face a decreased demand for NE hardwoods. The Ewp here is very nice but a pain in the ass to get an engineer to certify it all for a build.


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## xraydaniel (Oct 30, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> the term "timbered" is a new one to me...
> 
> Anyway, I'm not an east coast guy, nor do I claim to know much about it, however, skookum is that hardwood prices are down all over, and have been for some time, I don't see them coming up much if at all.
> 
> ...


I also want to add that I agree in the sensitivity of hardwoods here. We are one crisis away from devastating the mast tree species. What I have left for beech can be culled. There are some well endowed beeches there but the bulk of that species is only good for slash and spray. They may be better left for snags so birds can thrive or I can also collect lion’s mane from them. I do care a lot about habitat and forestry products as I am a hunter gatherer type


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## northmanlogging (Oct 30, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Thanks for the reply. “Timbered” just means a wood lot that’s cut: clear or selective. It could be made up by me! This will probably be a mill tally and I have the option to choose a bulk bid or just simply go with my forester’s choice whom I trust. I’m only asking for the roads to be combed. The plan is to take the low quality timber this time. This company does do that and I like a combed road for future entertainment. Slash can be left on site. I like to forage mushrooms and slash creates great opportunity for that. I’m looking for maximum revinue. We have two options here. Either mill tally or bulk bid. Timber goes to the mill while tallied and check gets cut on actual tally. Whole lot job can be bid for a price but I don’t really trust that way and I don’t want the low bidder nor a guesstimate on stand value. I feel it’s always best to establish a relationship since in another 10 years I will be “timbering” the stand that’s left with an expanded canopy, thickened trunks, and growing money. According to my forester mills are hungry. China was the biggest consumer of NE hardwoods. Look at what the commies are doing now though. Growth is stagnating. Xi is consolidating power. They are barely able to buy enough coal, lng, and oil on the open market to sustain the factory output. It’s not looking good so maybe a year down the road we may face a decreased demand for NE hardwoods. The Ewp here is very nice but a pain in the ass to get an engineer to certify it all for a build.


Mill tally, would be the best way to procede, bulk sales are sketchy at best. 

A good forestry plan is worth the money invested, and worth a "poor" harvest if it leads to a good harvest later. Much of that will depend on the logger doing the work too.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 30, 2021)

As for China market, at least out here on the wet coast, several mills closed after the trade war in Aug. of 2018, China just stopped buying from us, turned several ships away and refused to pay for them. The market has come back some, but at least 1 of those mills is never going to reopen. Damage done.


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## xraydaniel (Oct 30, 2021)

Very sad to hear.


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## fruitcakesa (Oct 31, 2021)

Since I do my own forest management, ie: I do the cutting, skidding and selling to mills, I am not current on stumpage pricing.
I can say that softwood prices in my area are up and straight through pricing is high with competing mills almost bidding against each other. According to the log buyer for the mill that is getting my timber, stocks of pine sawlogs are currently very low thus the good pricing.


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## Brufab (Oct 31, 2021)

If only popple was worth much I have so much of that on hand. Trouble is can't stockpile any because it rots so fast and it doesn't burn that good compared to everything else I can harvest.


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## Brufab (Oct 31, 2021)

I also noticed in response to the beech in the op that the Hampton bay unfinished cabinets at home depot are beech now. When I refinished my kitchen in my primary home it was red oak. I bought some cabinets for my vacation home and they are now beech..... interesting to say the least


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## Lee192233 (Oct 31, 2021)

My grandmother in-law had her 10 acre woodlot "selective cut" about 5 years ago. Maple, oak and beech. My take away is don't let a "forester" from the mill set up the sale and select the trees. They high graded it and took all the big trees and left small trees. Any big trees that are left are crooked or are hollow.
When I was scrounging some firewood there were 3 large cherry trees that were taken that weren't even on the cut list.
Best to have an independent or state forester set up the sale. 
Good luck with the sale.


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## Jhenderson (Oct 31, 2021)

*I recommend an independent forester( not a mill forester) to mark the job and run the sale. Be sure to include payment for needless damage to leave trees ( 3 times the value and leave the tree) and go look at the job the winning bidder is doing now to see if you want them on your property. The money will be long gone while you look at your woods and wish someone else did the job if you’ re not careful.*


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## Brufab (Oct 31, 2021)

The guy I had come through and look spent alot of time looking and explaining everything to me. I learned something new. I have alot of pignut hickory. They would tag every tree they were going to take and write up the bid/contract. I had the option of keeping any tree I wanted. Most of the oak is kinda goofy alot grow crooked because they are on high banks along a river and fighting for sun. And alot of maples are under water for half the year. He was pointing out why to take this tree and not that tree. Primary goal was to make some $ for trees that were not ever going to burn for firewood and improve overall health of the stand and for wildlife management.


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## xraydaniel (Oct 31, 2021)

All great points gents. My forester is an independent one and we’ve walked it a few times with in depth discussions. The goal is in great detail in the management plan. Take away the low quality, leave the white oaks, leave the thermal cover of hemlocks, leave the high quality for a future accretive selective cut, clear cut a small area, and comb the logging roads after it’s finished. Walk the lot after the job is done to confirm a proper job was performed. I will be pretty aggressive with making sure my forester does a proper job of follow up and oversight. He gets 10% more of the sale. I am a pretty knowledgeable jack of all trades. I can tell when a tree needs to be taken vs one that is damaged and will not be worthy of the future, as well as which ones needs to grow for another 10-30 years.

Two options I retain and that is a bid or go with my forester’s choice company whom he works with often. It’s a tough call because on one hand you have to put your full faith in your forester to be independent and unbiased and on the other hand a bid process may gain more money but the company which picks up the job may perform at a rate of diminishing returns. It ain’t easy when your not connected intrinsically to the industry.


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## Brufab (Oct 31, 2021)

The guy said alot of maple goes to the cabinet making industry??? I was surprised the red/white oak wasn't in high demand.


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## xraydaniel (Oct 31, 2021)

Brufab said:


> The guy said alot of maple goes to the cabinet making industry??? I was surprised the red/white oak wasn't in high demand.


Apparently oak is more 80’s 90’s style while lighter colored hardwoods like beech and maple are more popular now.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 1, 2021)

Brufab said:


> The guy said alot of maple goes to the cabinet making industry??? I was surprised the red/white oak wasn't in high demand.


maple, beech, and Alder (PNW weed) are easily stained to be whatever wood you want them to be, annnd they all grow like weeds so they are relatively cheap compared to stuff like Cherry, or Walnut.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 1, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> All great points gents. My forester is an independent one and we’ve walked it a few times with in depth discussions. The goal is in great detail in the management plan. Take away the low quality, leave the white oaks, leave the thermal cover of hemlocks, leave the high quality for a future accretive selective cut, clear cut a small area, and comb the logging roads after it’s finished. Walk the lot after the job is done to confirm a proper job was performed. I will be pretty aggressive with making sure my forester does a proper job of follow up and oversight. He gets 10% more of the sale. I am a pretty knowledgeable jack of all trades. I can tell when a tree needs to be taken vs one that is damaged and will not be worthy of the future, as well as which ones needs to grow for another 10-30 years.
> 
> Two options I retain and that is a bid or go with my forester’s choice company whom he works with often. It’s a tough call because on one hand you have to put your full faith in your forester to be independent and unbiased and on the other hand a bid process may gain more money but the company which picks up the job may perform at a rate of diminishing returns. It ain’t easy when your not connected intrinsically to the industry.


If your Forester is getting 10% of the sale, and you intend to do mill tally, then taking their suggestions on who should log it has considerably more weight, if the logger they suggest is going to get the most profit, everyone benefits


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## xraydaniel (Nov 1, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> If your Forester is getting 10% of the sale, and you intend to do mill tally, then taking their suggestions on who should log it has considerably more weight, if the logger they suggest is going to get the most profit, everyone benefits


Thank you for the confident reply northmanlogging.


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## slowp (Nov 1, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Two options I retain and that is a bid or go with my forester’s choice company whom he works with often. It’s a tough call because on one hand you have to put your full faith in your forester to be independent and unbiased and on the other hand a bid process may gain more money but the company which picks up the job may perform at a rate of diminishing returns. It ain’t easy when your not connected intrinsically to the industry.


Go look at previous units that the logger has logged and talk to the landowners. You have homework to do.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 1, 2021)

Here are some specimens. 30” red oak and close to 30” EWP. I probably have about 50-100 of these a piece. It’s really hard to tell since I never did a grid check.



Some of those tri and quad stump sprouts too.


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## ATpro (Nov 1, 2021)

When doing a bulk sale we cruised the timber selected for a selective cut. A cut like this means each tree has to be evaluated. Normally we would reduce the stumpage price by 10% for the offer to buy. The way you evaluate a tree for logs is you take measurement for diameter around 4 to 6 feet off the ground because of the flare of the butt. An estimator isn't going to buy what he can't use. Most of the time this flared butt gets cut off by the logger or mill. If the logger does it ask him to place the butts in a place where you can use them for fire wood later. If they send it to the mill, the mill will cut it off and send it to the chipper for fuel wood.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 1, 2021)

ATpro said:


> When doing a bulk sale we cruised the timber selected for a selective cut. A cut like this means each tree has to be evaluated. Normally we would reduce the stumpage price by 10% for the offer to buy. The way you evaluate a tree for logs is you take measurement for diameter around 4 to 6 feet off the ground because of the flare of the butt. An estimator isn't going to buy what he can't use. Most of the time this flared butt gets cut off by the logger or mill. If the logger does it ask him to place the butts in a place where you can use them for fire wood later. If they send it to the mill, the mill will cut it off and send it to the chipper for fuel wood.


Truth. I appreciate the feedback. Do you prefer mill tally or bulk bids?


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## ATpro (Nov 2, 2021)

I personally have done both, mill tally and bulk bids. Down here in Lower Alabama most loggers work through a Dealer who sells to the mills. The Dealers get the mill tally with the producers name on it ( land owner ). 

Now if you have specially wood, wood that would command a higher price, you would look for a dealer that specialized in this kind of wood for max. price and he would cruse and mark the timber he wanted to buy and then make you an offer. I sold some Long Leaf Pine to a specialized dealer who bought pilling for docks, bridges and such. He wanted certain sizes and he marked the ones he wanted and said he would send someone to cruse them and then he would give me a price. I told him I would go along with the cruse and we would number each tree and enter the data on the tally sheet, that way we would both know the volume selected. That was about the time he realized I knew what was going on and the cruse would go by the book.

In your case you are going to select cut or thin your forest and by the looks of it that would involve removing undesirable trees. I would mark the trees I wanted removed and then call someone in to give you a price. Mill tally would probable be your best bet, that way you get paid for what they take off your land. If you found someone you trust then bulk bid would be OK.

In the case of bulk bid on a select cut I mark the trees I want to keep in a different color and mark the bottom of the tree also, that way if there is an over cut you can tell. You mark both sides high on the tree and the bottom. If a tree isn't marked they can cut it. Sometimes it's easier to mark what you want to keep.


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## Huskybill (Nov 2, 2021)

Have a state forest ranger mark the trees to be removed. Selective harvesting pays off for the future growth of quality timber. Manage your woodlot.


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## Leeroy (Nov 2, 2021)

Do state foresters mark private woodlots? Not in Rhode Island. Pretty sure they don't in Connecticut either, not
sure about Massachusetts.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 2, 2021)

Leeroy said:


> Do state foresters mark private woodlots? Not in Rhode Island. Pretty sure they don't in Connecticut either, not
> sure about Massachusetts.


Pretty sure they don’t in Ma.


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## Huskybill (Nov 2, 2021)

I did a few jobs were the local forest ranger went in and marked the trees to be removed for the land owner, in ct.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 2, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> I did a few jobs were the local forest ranger went in and marked the trees to be removed for the land owner,


In Ma?


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## Leeroy (Nov 2, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> I did a few jobs were the local forest ranger went in and marked the trees to be removed for the land owner, in ct.


Interesting, how long ago Bill?


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## Huskybill (Nov 2, 2021)

Years ago they probably still do it.


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## Jhenderson (Nov 2, 2021)

Ct only allows 4 hrs of state forester on site advice. Basically just a quick assessment of the situation and then a list of foresters you can hire. There’s also now local permitting and site visits by local officials. It’s getting more and more complicated.


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## Lee192233 (Nov 2, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Ct only allows 4 hrs of state forester on site advice. Basically just a quick assessment of the situation and then a list of foresters you can hire. There’s also now local permitting and site visits by local officials. It’s getting more and more complicated.


Yeah it's getting complicated. Here in WI you need to submit a cut notice to the county for tax purposes. That way the state can get their share of the sale.


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## slowp (Nov 2, 2021)

I marked timber for years and years. It's the job nobody wants to do, unless they are fallers and get paid well for carrying cans of paint instead of a heavy saw and accessories. 

Make sure you get that butt mark (the one at stump level) as close to the ground as possible and get the paint into crevices or scars where it can't be easily rubbed off by a skidder tire. Bunchers/processors cut very low stumps so that requires marking low. You've also got to have a bit of knowledge to identify how a tree is going to fall or if it will be possible to get the tree on the ground without falling additional trees, that you might want to leave. It's the job that can't be done perfectly. Additional trees will most likely have to come down during operations because of hung up trees and road, skid road, and landing construction. 

Loggers like a lot of paint on the tree. Markers like less because it means less paint to carry. 

Use a specific color and maybe ask around to see what the common paint scheme is. Around here on federal lands, orange is for leave trees, blue is for cut trees. On state lands, it looks like blue is for leave trees and sometimes fallers get confused. I've had to deal with having a couple of acres of leave trees cut by confused fallers. It isn't fun. 

Use tree marking paint. It's made to last a few years and doesn't get sucked up by the bark. Logging supply stores probably carry it and then online forestry supply outfits do carry it. 

And then, during logging, check up on the operations yourself. Walk through the area frequently after work has stopped for the day. Ask questions. 

We call that portion of the butt log that is cut off because it has excessive sweep, a long butt. Keep an eye on that. Sometimes the cutter goes overboard and longbutts portions that are actually merch. And, this means you might want to peruse some forestry books on tree defects. I am "out west" so have an old copy of the Idaho log scaling book. There are probably some local books in your area showing various rots and defects and how to ID those. 

It takes a while to learn and that's why there are foresters out there.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 2, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> Years ago they probably still do it.





slowp said:


> I marked timber for years and years. It's the job nobody wants to do, unless they are fallers and get paid well for carrying cans of paint instead of a heavy saw and accessories.
> 
> Make sure you get that butt mark (the one at stump level) as close to the ground as possible and get the paint into crevices or scars where it can't be easily rubbed off by a skidder tire. Bunchers/processors cut very low stumps so that requires marking low. You've also got to have a bit of knowledge to identify how a tree is going to fall or if it will be possible to get the tree on the ground without falling additional trees, that you might want to leave. It's the job that can't be done perfectly. Additional trees will most likely have to come down during operations because of hung up trees and road, skid road, and landing construction.
> 
> ...


Great points. It’s surprising how many spray cans are consumed by the bark of a pine.

If I had the time and energy I would be doing all the marking myself but that’s not gonna happen with my current life situation. I will be checking often to see how it’s going.

As noted earlier I already have a management plan. It’s a low grade selective cut + clear cut. I’m not sure if I will get a spreadsheet of what was cut and sold from my forester after the mill tally is done. I would hope to get one and also a breakdown of costs and charges. Who knows if back door deals take place and a private forester takes a kick back from a certain outfit, more than a little high grading is done, and the actual invoice doesn’t reflect an honest cut. I’m sure it happens all the time.


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## Huskybill (Nov 2, 2021)

They mark the stump close to the ground and another mark chest high.


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## Jhenderson (Nov 2, 2021)

*I prefer Nelson blue because it’s the only that’s not naturally occurring so it sticks out no matter what the season. 
A forester told me a logger can spot a dime size mark on a good tree but you need a pie plate on junk before it gets noticed. *


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## slowp (Nov 2, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Great points. It’s surprising how many spray cans are consumed by the bark of a pine.
> 
> If I had the time and energy I would be doing all the marking myself but that’s not gonna happen with my current life situation. I will be checking often to see how it’s going.
> 
> As noted earlier I already have a management plan. It’s a low grade selective cut + clear cut. I’m not sure if I will get a spreadsheet of what was cut and sold from my forester after the mill tally is done. I would hope to get one and also a breakdown of costs and charges. Who knows if back door deals take place and a private forester takes a kick back from a certain outfit, more than a little high grading is done, and the actual invoice doesn’t reflect an honest cut. I’m sure it happens all the time.


It will if you think that way. Good luck.


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## slowp (Nov 2, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> They mark the stump close to the ground and another mark chest high.


I mark the stump at GROUND level, sometimes on two sides, and then mark the chest high mark on two sides. I've mostly worked on steep ground and that means a slash across the tree on the downhill side, as well as the stump mark should always go on the downhill side, and then a slash across the uphill side. More of the stump will survive on the downhill side, so that's the side with a well marked blob of some sort. I've had mechanized folk want the upper mark around the whole tree so they don't have to get off their machine to check but that was their preference and not required. 

Had a timber theft case where they tried so hard to scrape off the stump mark, it made it quite obvious what was going on. That was a leave tree marked sale. 

The Forest Service has a super secret paint recipe. Additives are put in the paint that react to chemicals. I was required to take out the little vial of chemicals and test the paint on cut trees every once in a while. 

And yes, Nelson Tree Marking Paint is the least cloggy of it all.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 2, 2021)

slowp said:


> It will if you think that way. Good luck.


Well, sure my brief speculation may taint my feeling and outlook but let’s compare it and everything to government spending and omnibus bills. Shouldn’t we always demand transparency in everything? I give everyone the benefit of the doubt upon first blood. When I know someone for a long enough time trust becomes a bond. I like my forester so far from our few meetings. Proof will be in the pudding.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 3, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Great points. It’s surprising how many spray cans are consumed by the bark of a pine.
> 
> If I had the time and energy I would be doing all the marking myself but that’s not gonna happen with my current life situation. I will be checking often to see how it’s going.
> 
> As noted earlier I already have a management plan. It’s a low grade selective cut + clear cut. I’m not sure if I will get a spreadsheet of what was cut and sold from my forester after the mill tally is done. I would hope to get one and also a breakdown of costs and charges. Who knows if back door deals take place and a private forester takes a kick back from a certain outfit, more than a little high grading is done, and the actual invoice doesn’t reflect an honest cut. I’m sure it happens all the time.


Crooks are everywhere, but if you have a reputable forester and a reputable logger, you will be fine. 
Just swing by while they are there often enough to keep tabs on things, but not so much as to be underfoot and everyone will be happy. Just don't be a moron and waltz out into the cut while they are working, wait at the landing in a reasonably safe spot... rule of thumb don't go past the fallers trucks... as they're probably not going to smash their own trucks.... they may not know where your's is though...

Whatever happens you should get at least some paperwork from the mills showing gross board footage, net board footage and of course money for trucking etc, Granted east coast may do things differently, but the mill should provide something to someone, even if its not you, you should be able to get your paws on it and keep tabs of what is actually going on. 

It would also be wise to request a trucking ticket for every truck that leaves loaded, that should include destination and ownerships. 
Note; I run a self loader log truck, I haul for every sort of logger there is, most are honest, many don't have a damned clue, I always at least try to leave a load ticket unless no one is around, or they don't care to have em, even then if they are around I make sure they get one. Its reallllllly easy to steal wood in a self loader, so I do my part to remain accountable as best I can.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 3, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Crooks are everywhere, but if you have a reputable forester and a reputable logger, you will be fine.
> Just swing by while they are there often enough to keep tabs on things, but not so much as to be underfoot and everyone will be happy. Just don't be a moron and waltz out into the cut while they are working, wait at the landing in a reasonably safe spot... rule of thumb don't go past the fallers trucks... as they're probably not going to smash their own trucks.... they may not know where your's is though...
> 
> Whatever happens you should get at least some paperwork from the mills showing gross board footage, net board footage and of course money for trucking etc, Granted east coast may do things differently, but the mill should provide something to someone, even if its not you, you should be able to get your paws on it and keep tabs of what is actually going on.
> ...


You are an honorable and honest man.


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## ATpro (Nov 4, 2021)

The problem is getting someone to come in to select cut such a small wood lot and removing just the undesirables. Around here loggers are 6 months behind and may not move for a small woodlot. It cost time and money to move a logging operation. You would be best to look for a small producer, one that can accommodate you and your needs.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 4, 2021)

ATpro said:


> The problem is getting someone to come in to select cut such a small wood lot and removing just the undesirables. Around here loggers are 6 months behind and may not move for a small woodlot. It cost time and money to move a logging operation. You would be best to look for a small producer, one that can accommodate you and your needs.


I have a guy I’m meeting this Saturday who specializes in smaller jobs.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 6, 2021)

Did a thorough cruising with the logger and it turns out this may wind up being a revenue neutral job as the clearcut doesn’t contain enough merchantible timber to offset the dice and chip to make that 2-3 acre area nice and clean. This is what I was looking for in the area anyways. After marking and cutting we will find out if the mill tally yields some extra stumpage for revenue or not but I’m ok with getting the work done at a revenue neutral outcome. It’s just not a large enough and old enough wood lot for high grading yet. I’ll give it 20 years with this selective cut to see how it progresses. There are enormous amounts of oak seedlings that need to thrive. Ferns need to be reduced. Light needs to come in. It’s looking good for the future.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Did a thorough cruising with the logger and it turns out this may wind up being a revenue neutral job as the clearcut doesn’t contain enough merchantible timber to offset the dice and chip to make that 2-3 acre area nice and clean. This is what I was looking for in the area anyways. After marking and cutting we will find out if the mill tally yields some extra stumpage for revenue or not but I’m ok with getting the work done at a revenue neutral outcome. It’s just not a large enough and old enough wood lot for high grading yet. I’ll give it 20 years with this selective cut to see how it progresses. There are enormous amounts of oak seedlings that need to thrive. Ferns need to be reduced. Light needs to come in. It’s looking good for the future.


early management is usually valueless, or at worst costs the land owner, but it makes successive harvests leaps and bounds better. 
Cutting the scrubby stuff now and not having to pay to have it done is a win win situation, in 10-20 years you will have a decent hardwood stand worth considerably more money then if you left it alone.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 6, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> early management is usually valueless, or at worst costs the land owner, but it makes successive harvests leaps and bounds better.
> Cutting the scrubby stuff now and not having to pay to have it done is a win win situation, in 10-20 years you will have a decent hardwood stand worth considerably more money then if you left it alone.


Yeah I’m learning that now. Spending time with the pros in the woods, researching abundantly, and watching many videos helps greatly to understand the logging industry and forest ecology.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Yeah I’m learning that now. Spending time with the pros in the woods, researching abundantly, and watching many videos helps greatly to understand the logging industry and forest ecology.


far more to it then "Dur i kuts da tree and tree make big noyse ah yuk" at least when its done right.


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## ATpro (Nov 7, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Yeah I’m learning that now. Spending time with the pros in the woods, researching abundantly, and watching many videos helps greatly to understand the logging industry and forest ecology.


The more you're exposed the more you learn. Was a time when you had to almost give pulpwood away to get someone to thin it on the first cut in Plantation Pines. If the pines were planted on a government program you had to plant the number of stems they wanted and thin when they told you to. When working with clients who planted on their own we could adjust the number of stems to suite the type of land and timing for the first thinning, this way they had a several years to time the cut and for the best price.

I encourage folks that are to old to grow a generation of lloblolly pine to plant long leaf pine. A government program will pay for most of the cost and one can burn at a regular rate and keep the under story clean. You need fire to bring long leaf out of the grass stage and can burn every 4 or 5 years. This helps control the hardwood regeneration and provides better habitat for wildlife. If they are young of age loblolly pine is the way to go.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 7, 2021)

So I reconsidered the clear cut as I am afraid pioneer species will take over and in 2 years when I build it may prove to be a definite headache. Since I’m not absolute in my time horizon for building, the clear cut will cost money rather than produce revinue, the probability of undesirables popping up is high, and the existing quality timber won’t have more time to flourish when selectively cut. I believe it’s best to just keep it simple and stick with an across the lot selective cut to enhance the stand.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> So I reconsidered the clear cut as I am afraid pioneer species will take over and in 2 years when I build it may prove to be a definite headache. Since I’m not absolute in my time horizon for building, the clear cut will cost money rather than produce revinue, the probability of undesirables popping up is high, and the existing quality timber won’t have more time to flourish when selectively cut I believe it’s best to just keep it simple and stick with an across the lot selective cut to enhance the stand.


generally a different sort of permitting hassle too, clear cut for timber vs clearing and grading to build. every county is different, but waiting on that end of things will definately save you headaches. 

clearing for a building will cost you money, but you should find someone that will be willing to offset the timber value at least for part of the clearing work.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 7, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> generally a different sort of permitting hassle too, clear cut for timber vs clearing and grading to build. every county is different, but waiting on that end of things will definately save you headaches.
> 
> clearing for a building will cost you money, but you should find someone that will be willing to offset the timber value at least for part of the clearing work.


I can zip smaller trees down with my brush cutter in fast order while the stand in that area continues to grow over 2 years. I believe it will be easier in the long term. I can also cut down that stand myself and sell the logs when the time comes.


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## ATpro (Nov 7, 2021)

One thing to remember is to keep fire out of your woodlot, fire will damage or kill your hardwoods. If the fire get hot enough too boil the sap in the lower trunk of the tree it will kill the tree. You can burn woodlots with hardwoods but you must take special care like burn with the wind and don't head fire.

The idea is to move the fire through as fast as you can, a back burn moves to slow and the fire stays around the trunk of the tree to long. On a small woodlot you can remove debris like leaves and brush from around the base of the tree by raking it back. Sometimes I set fire to these leaf piles before I set the main fire. The object is to reduce fire load around the hardwood base and keep the trunk as cool as possible.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 7, 2021)

ATpro said:


> One thing to remember is to keep fire out of your woodlot, fire will damage or kill your hardwoods. If the fire get hot enough too boil the sap in the lower trunk of the tree it will kill the tree. You can burn woodlots with hardwoods but you must take special care like burn with the wind and don't head fire.
> 
> The idea is to move the fire through as fast as you can, a back burn moves to slow and the fire stays around the trunk of the tree to long. On a small woodlot you can remove debris like leaves and brush from around the base of the tree by raking it back. Sometimes I set fire to these leaf piles before I set the main fire. The object is to reduce fire load around the hardwood base and keep the trunk as cool as possible.


Prescribed burns in this region are almost unheard of. Gotta say that I certainly would never do a brush burn in a wood lot either. Large pasture area? Sure.


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## ATpro (Nov 7, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Prescribed burns in this region are almost unheard of. Gotta say that I certainly would never do a brush burn in a wood lot either. Large pasture area? Sure.


Rather run a Prescribed Burn than let nature take it's course. If done right it can clean up nice. For years I was a prescribed burn manager. Guess the way I look at fire, it's just another tool but an important one in forestry.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 7, 2021)

ATpro said:


> Rather run a Prescribed Burn than let nature take it's course. If done right it can clean up nice. For years I was a prescribed burn manager. Guess the way I look at fire, it's just another tool but an important one in forestry.


I think the last time fire came through this area might have been mid century and earlier.


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## ATpro (Nov 8, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> I think the last time fire came through this area might have been mid century and earlier.


Probably don't have the under-story growth that we have. In one year on a clearcut you can have head high growth that's so thick that it's hard to walk through. One needs to prescribe burn as soon as the fire can't reach the crown, then burn about every 3 or 5 years.

Normally with loblolly pine that is about 14 years and you must watch close to make sure the fire doesn't get to hot. I try run a backfire with no headfire, paying close attention to wind, humidity, and problem spots when burning loblolly pine for the first time. Long leaf you burn at about 3 years and once the trees have grown enough you can burn every year or when you want to. Eliminating the under-story help pine grow better, and fresh growth provides browse for game.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 13, 2021)

ATpro said:


> Probably don't have the under-story growth that we have. In one year on a clearcut you can have head high growth that's so thick that it's hard to walk through. One needs to prescribe burn as soon as the fire can't reach the crown, then burn about every 3 or 5 years.
> 
> Normally with loblolly pine that is about 14 years and you must watch close to make sure the fire doesn't get to hot. I try run a backfire with no headfire, paying close attention to wind, humidity, and problem spots when burning loblolly pine for the first time. Long leaf you burn at about 3 years and once the trees have grown enough you can burn every year or when you want to. Eliminating the under-story help pine grow better, and fresh growth provides browse for game.


We have a very thick duff layer of leafy detritus that is usually quite wet and at least this year even deluged. It’s so hardwood dominant. Burns are not even thought of in my area. In gravelly line areas up north, maybe?

Still waiting for the forester to mark or even correspond but I know he’s busy.


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## ATpro (Nov 15, 2021)

From the looks of your pictures there is nothing to burn except leaves. If you want to control the under brush just use roundup in a sprayer you can selective kill what you like.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Temporary drive is in. Landing being formed soon to the right side.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

What's the mix of trees I'm seeing some red oak


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> What's the mix of trees I'm seeing some red oak


Yup. Red oak, Beech, Eastern White Pine, Eastern Hemlock, Yellow Birch, Black Cherry, and Red Maple.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Wow that's a great blend. We had a guy look at our 40 acre lot and he was interested most in the big maples saying that's what the cabinet makers are looking for. Mostly red oak maple some popple. On a 3 acre lot we had a few trees taken out mostly big red oak and big popple to pay for a culvert and gravel driveway then we cut a bunch more big popple to mill spec (10'6") and the logger guy doesn't even want them for free. Says there's no money in it for him to pick them up. We have more than enough saw logs(maple, oak,ash) stacked up for burning in the next few years.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

It's crazy to think 30-40 10'6" popple logs 16-28"dia are not worth a guys time to take to mill when we don't even want the money and it's easy pickens


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Wow that's a great blend. We had a guy look at our 40 acre lot and he was interested most in the big maples saying that's what the cabinet makers are looking for. Mostly red oak maple some popple. On a 3 acre lot we had a few trees taken out mostly big red oak and big popple to pay for a culvert and gravel driveway then we cut a bunch more big popple to mill spec (10'6") and the logger guy doesn't even want them for free. Says there's no money in it for him to pick them up. We have more than enough saw logs(maple, oak,ash) stacked up for burning in the next few years.


I have a very small amount of popple, spruce, white oak, and ash. So little that I didn’t even mention it. Those I want to increase in the stand so I’m precluding those from the cut.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> It's crazy to think 30-40 10'6" popple logs 16-28"dia are not worth a guys time to take to mill when we don't even want the money and it's easy pickens


That’s surprising as popple makes a great trim wood free of knots that takes paint better than most.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

It's used to make pallets that's about it in michigan. Basically a nuisance tree. I read an article that once they logged out michigan in the 18-1900's the tree took over as it grew much faster than the trees that were cut and choked everything out.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Deer prefer the white oak acorns over the red from what I seen. Any ash in michigan are no bigger than 4-6" from the eab wiping them out


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Well good luck I bet it will be exciting to say the least. Covid killed the selective harvest of our 40 acre parcel we have and flooding since a tributary of the flint river splits the parcel in half.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Deer prefer the white oak acorns over the red from what I seen. Any ash in michigan are no bigger than 4-6" from the eab wiping them out


 Biggest reason I want the white oak to increase as the beeches almost never fruit, the red oaks could be taken out in a disaster at anytime (foreign made), and mast trees are such an important food course to wildlife.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> It's used to make pallets that's about it in michigan. Basically a nuisance tree. I read an article that once they logged out michigan in the 18-1900's the tree took over as it grew much faster than the trees that were cut and choked everything out.


Funny thing is my logger said the red oak goes to pallets (low grade). Firewood is at all time highs though!


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Yea a couple 600$ veneer logs most were 20-50$ but he paid us to take I'm sure he kept some logs to himself but he had the equipment. I think the low grade went to pallets as well. He took most of the tops for welfare wood I guess he gets paid to deliver firewood from government. There's a pic of our driveway/landing and the 40 acre parcel. You can see how it floods which prohibits logging. We have a 200' by 6'w footbridge we built spanning the floodplain


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Btw @Brufab I’ve got 2 Echos: CS400 and a CS-620P

The CS400 is muffed. Had it for like 10 years now.

Any great ideas for the 620? Picked it up last year for $525.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Yea shimmy down my chimney and leave that 620 under the tree for my Xmas gift . I'm all stock. Waiting for the warranty to expire before I get crazy. So far so good. That cs 400 is a great saw for the $ can't wait to open her up.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Yea shimmy down my chimney and leave that 620 under the tree for my Xmas gift . I'm all stock. Waiting for the warranty to expire before I get crazy. So far so good. That cs 400 is a great saw for the $ can't wait to open her up.


I did put a 32” bar with a full skip but I probably shouldn’t drill out the cat just yet because I don’t want to kill the warranty. It’s a nice saw and glad I got that deal before inflation starting messing everything up. Thanks Brandon.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

I've been looking at the 620pw, they say it's real wicked for the size and $. I got a couple 590s but guys say the difference is night and day between the 2. I looked at the 7310 and it was to big cause I'm a little guy 5'4 140 so the 620 size to power ratio is great from what I have read.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I've been looking at the 620pw, they say it's real wicked for the size and $. I got a couple 590s but guys say the difference is night and day between the 2. I looked at the 7310 and it was to big cause I'm a little guy 5'4 140 so the 620 size to power ratio is great from what I have read.


I gotta look up prices now just cuz I’m curious. I went through checking out all those models as well on my search and was either going with the P or Pw. p it was cuz the price was right. The bar I have on now is just a tad heavy? Haha.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Yea I was at echo days right before michigan shut down on March 2020 to pick up that monster back pack blower echo makes.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

Yea 24" on my 590 is heavy but it's an oregon bar. If I got a sugi or something I bet it would feel better. I think the pw is full wrap. I got my 590s for 239.99 each.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

My stock 590 pulls the 24" no prob but I'm no pro and haven't run no husky or stihls.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Yea I was at echo days right before michigan shut down on March 2020 to pick up that monster back pack blower echo makes.


Gee you and I think alike. I got a Husqvarna 360bt 2 years ago. Not an Echo but a very powerful blower.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

I did upgrade the spikes though


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

I would advise against that monster blower unless your clearing leaves off of a path. It hurts to use lol. It moves logs and big rocks and will blow a hole to China if you point it at the ground. Not much finesse in it. I think the 60 ish cc one would have been better.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 2, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I would advise against that monster blower unless your clearing leaves off of a path. It hurts to use lol. It moves logs and big rocks and will blow a hole to China if you point it at the ground. Not much finesse in it. I think the 60 ish cc one would have been better.


Sorry typo. 360bt and it does throw air. Did a great job for me as I need to remove high volume leaves for fall. It will be perfect for my land too after the cut since I want those logging roads to be pristine.


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

I agree we use ours mostly for clearing leaves in the woods for planting food plots and keeping them clear of leaves. Works great for that.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 2, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Temporary drive is in. Landing being formed soon to the right side. View attachment 945827
> View attachment 945828


good to see you got a logger that can put in a decent road, far to many expect the log trucks to float on mud...

as fer the popple, it's a damned weed grows everywhere fast and big, so it's cheap and fairly useless wood, if the logger doesn't want it, it's probably cause it wont even cover the trucking to take it to a mill


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## Brufab (Dec 2, 2021)

I believe xray is in the new England area he may have poplar which is desirable. But here where I am at its quaking aspen or big tooth/saw tooth aspen but the slang term is popple for them and I agree they are junk. Damn things can fall over on a calm day and once there big the ones around my area get center rot and are dangerous to fell and the best part of the tree is useless.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I believe xray is in the new England area he may have poplar which is desirable. But here where I am at its quaking aspen or big tooth/saw tooth aspen but the slang term is popple for them and I agree they are junk. Damn things can fall over on a calm day and once there big the ones around my area get center rot and are dangerous to fell and the best part of the tree is useless.


Same monikers for popple as you fellas have. I like the wood for certain purposes but like all things, anything too much can be a nuisance. What’s a nuisance around here? Sumac and Norway Maple.
The popple on my plot number in the 10’s and they die by the time they get to 60 ft and 16 dbh.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> good to see you got a logger that can put in a decent road, far to many expect the log trucks to float on mud...
> 
> as fer the popple, it's a damned weed grows everywhere fast and big, so it's cheap and fairly useless wood, if the logger doesn't want it, it's probably cause it wont even cover the trucking to take it to a mill.



He’s a young guy making a name for himself. Happy to give him some street cred. He keeps me very up to date with info and progress he’s making as well as price transparency. He’s a very honest and down to earth character. I could have been setup with a big crew but who knows what the outcome would have been? Maybe good, maybe scorched earth. It could go either way for any logger. I like to meet the guy or crew first and talk it up to level the playing field. I am realistic and know what is trash and what is treasure not setting unrealistic expectations on anyone. I’ve learned quite a bit from spending time chatting with him.


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## Brufab (Dec 3, 2021)

Damn I felled some monsters on my dads build site maybe 100' and 28"


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## Brufab (Dec 3, 2021)

You know it's bad when guys don't want big logs like that for free.


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## manomet (Dec 3, 2021)

Xraydaniel, I live in central mass as well and the damn gypsy moths killed off all our big white oaks. As much as we liked them I don't know that I would be promoting them above others, but I don't know squat about timbering other than I like being in the woods.


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## weimedog (Dec 3, 2021)

Doing my back 150 acres, prices for Ash are pretty good...... so


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## Brufab (Dec 3, 2021)

manomet said:


> Xraydaniel, I live in central mass as well and the damn gypsy moths killed off all our big white oaks. As much as we liked them I don't know that I would be promoting them above others, but I don't know squat about timbering other than I like being in the woods.


Same here patches of forest looked like December even though it was July August. So much poop at night it sounded like it was raining. It was un believable to say the least


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## Lee192233 (Dec 3, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I believe xray is in the new England area he may have poplar which is desirable. But here where I am at its quaking aspen or big tooth/saw tooth aspen but the slang term is popple for them and I agree they are junk. Damn things can fall over on a calm day and once there big the ones around my area get center rot and are dangerous to fell and the best part of the tree is useless.


Aspen are the heart of the pulp wood industry in northern WI. Our land in north central WI is about 65% aspen. It gets clearcut every 30 to 40 years. Great for deer, grouse and woodcock.


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## Brufab (Dec 3, 2021)

I agree grouse woodcock love them especially if they are new growth stands under 3" and 30' that's prime grouse and woodcock territory in michigan


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 3, 2021)

Our neighbor logged off thirty acres of Beech/Oak woods. Young couple, just bought the property and fixed up the house. They hired a forester. Pallet company got the job, and a father/son team did the cutting/skidding. They absolutely spoiled the property. Left hangers in the back yard around the house until the couple called the forester. They have three young kids. They questioned what was going on and the forester said these were some of the better loggers he dealt with. There is hangers and damaged trees through the property. The couple posted free firewood and people cleaned up some of the easy picking tops. Since then wind storms have topped many of the younger tall trees left in the more open areas. The owners were shocked and embarrassed. The brush has grown up very thick throughout the property. I'm sure it will not recover for thirty years. Really devalued what was a beautiful property.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Our neighbor logged off thirty acres of Beech/Oak woods. Young couple, just bought the property and fixed up the house. They hired a forester. Pallet company got the job, and a father/son team did the cutting/skidding. They absolutely spoiled the property. Left hangers in the back yard around the house until the couple called the forester. They have three young kids. They questioned what was going on and the forester said these were some of the better loggers he dealt with. There is hangers and damaged trees through the property. The couple posted free firewood and people cleaned up some of the easy picking tops. Since then wind storms have topped many of the younger tall trees left in the more open areas. The owners were shocked and embarrassed. The brush has grown up very thick throughout the property. I'm sure it will not recover for thirty years. Really devalued what was a beautiful property.


That’s what I’m afraid of right there. Tops will be left in the woods but 30-40% basal area will be cut. I have a big firewood need so I will be going through to clean the tops up.

Did this father/son crew high grade it?


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 3, 2021)

I just stumbled across this thread from the firewood section.
I'm not familiar with a lot of the terms, including "high grade".
As slowp said, do your homework, and it sounds like you are.
And as other suggested, go to other sites that have been logged off.
The neighbors forester had a sign out along the road. It fell down over time and I kept putting it back up for a year, that others would know who not to hire.
What is basil area?
Edit: Another neighbor just put 19.9 acres up for sale. 2/3 high ground fully wooded, ravine and wetlands. $695k Logged off i'm guessing it would be worth a fraction of that.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I just stumbled across this thread from the firewood section.
> I'm not familiar with a lot of the terms, including "high grade".
> As slowp said, do your homework, and it sounds like you are.
> And as other suggested, go to other sites that have been logged off.
> ...


High grade = taking of excellent quality timber. 
Basal area = density of stumpage in a given area

$695k for 20 acres? Where is this?! Must have a nice house there as well as out buildings.


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## Lee192233 (Dec 3, 2021)

2.5k to 5k an acre here for unimproved hardwoods on buildable ground. Obviously if it's close to cities or has water frontage it goes up.


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 3, 2021)

Google Zillow, Saugatuck, MI; land 19 acres; $600k+
6199 Old Allegan Rd, Saugatuck 49453
No buildings that I'm aware of.
19.9 acres.
Sorry for the thread derail.
Just saying, land value is effected by what's on it, and the timber value may be low compared to not harvesting and just culling as you go. Or find a person willing to take a few trees at the start and doing something over a period of time. Maybe check someone with a mill that does custom mill work.
You are obviously well informed.
However, asking say ten people what "timber management" means may get you ten different answers depending on their background. I mentioned recently in another thread, if you have prostrate cancer, and talk to a surgeon, you will get that point of view, a surgical point of view because that's what he knows. Talk to someone who specializes in radiation, you will get that point of view. Talk with a general practitioner you will hear something, some positive and possibly negative considerations, you may not hear from the others as they, the general practitioner, do not have a financial interest either way.
With harvesting trees, the point of view of someone not financially connected, could be worth a lot.
The neighbors have looked at a mess for almost three years. The first year, people were there daily, seven days a week, driving in and out of the driveway to cut tops. Somedays several pair or threesome's, which made for scatter picking early on, which made more of a mess. One guy brought a flatbed wrecker and winched stuff on the truck (Which is technically illegal, because they get a break on license plates as emergency vehicles, with the contingency that the vehicle is only used for that purpose.)One pair continued to come and cleaned up the tops (down to 2"), and they call them back when wind storms drop more stuff. The couple, I should add does not use firewood. Just two good, hard working people trying to raise a family. Trying to do it right by involving a forester, a (supposedly) professional.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 3, 2021)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I just stumbled across this thread from the firewood section.
> I'm not familiar with a lot of the terms, including "high grade".
> As slowp said, do your homework, and it sounds like you are.
> And as other suggested, go to other sites that have been logged off.
> ...


High Grade, to take only the best or highest value timber, leaving the rest, worst case scenerio, the loggers destroy any standing timber they don't want, and muck up the dirt in the process, best case they take the good stuff and leave the smaller less desirable timber to grow up some and be valuable later, and everything in between 

Basil area, is roughly the density of the timber, it can be expressed a number of different way, sometimes focusing on species or total, sometimes mature vs young etc.


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## Cricket (Dec 3, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> Biggest reason I want the white oak to increase as the beeches almost never fruit, the red oaks could be taken out in a disaster at anytime (foreign made), and mast trees are such an important food course to wildlife.


Beech mast was nuts here this year.


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## Brufab (Dec 3, 2021)

Not many acorns in ogemaw or lapeer counties this year. Thinking the dry summer we had.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Not many acorns in ogemaw or lapeer counties this year. Thinking the dry summer we had.


Wettest season on record for us in the NE. Huge acorn production but not as crazy as the last two years.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

Cricket said:


> Beech mast was nuts here this year.


I had like 2 mature beeches that dropped fruit and those were on the roadside, maybe 100 years old or more. A few in the forest did but that is like 3 out of many thousands.


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## hseII (Dec 3, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I've been looking at the 620pw, they say it's real wicked for the size and $. I got a couple 590s but guys say the difference is night and day between the 2. I looked at the 7310 and it was to big cause I'm a little guy 5'4 140 so the 620 size to power ratio is great from what I have read.



Put a 28” on the 7310 & go to work.

620 is nice but if you need more grunt a 70cc saw is hardly ever the wrong choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## xraydaniel (Dec 3, 2021)

hseII said:


> Put a 28” on the 7310 & go to work.
> 
> 620 is nice but if you need more grunt a 70cc saw is hardly ever the wrong choice.
> 
> ...


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## Brufab (Dec 4, 2021)

Does the old saying a 20" bar will cut a 40" tree still apply


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## woodfarmer (Dec 4, 2021)

The first thing I would do is to take down the tree behind the one with the posted sign on it.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 4, 2021)

woodfarmer said:


> The first thing I would do is to take down the tree behind the one with the posted sign on it.


That’s a beech snag good for pileated peckers and fungi growth. It’s not very attractive for the future but those left in the woods are a great wildlife treat.


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 4, 2021)

Many of our Beech are hollow, or have hollow spots, and are home to several pair of wood duck each spring/summer. I leave standing dead for the pileated wood peckers as well. Sometimes they, the standing dead, drop and take out a younger tree, but that's nature. Our property was selective cut prior to our acquiring it, in 1985. They probably took two dozen Oaks off this six acres, and did a clean job of it.


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## Jim K (Dec 4, 2021)

Cricket said:


> Beech mast was nuts here this year.



Huge black walnut crop this year in Allegan County, Michigan. I have 4 trees in farmyard and a tractor with a 6' bucket. Picked up and hauled 15 loads of nuts and scattered around the 80 acre farm. Estimated over 15.000 to 20,000 nuts. If the squirrels don't eat them all, will have a huge black walnut tree plantation in 10 to 20 years.
Black walnut logs are in big demand now and the trees are referred to as "Black Gold". During my absence someone cut down 4 prime veneer trees from my property. Estimated value $5K to $6K. Real bummer!
JJK


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## Brufab (Dec 4, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> That’s a beech snag good for pileated peckers and fungi growth. It’s not very attractive for the future but those left in the woods are a great wildlife treat.


Good thinking on the wildlife  I'm sure the animals appreciate it


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 4, 2021)

Jim K said:


> During my absence someone cut down 4 prime veneer trees from my property.


Unfortunately this is not uncommon to hear every few years. 
When someone steals something that is not replaceable, there should be a different terminology, or category, for it other than dollar value.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 4, 2021)

Jim K said:


> Huge black walnut crop this year in Allegan County, Michigan. I have 4 trees in farmyard and a tractor with a 6' bucket. Picked up and hauled 15 loads of nuts and scattered around the 80 acre farm. Estimated over 15.000 to 20,000 nuts. If the squirrels don't eat them all, will have a huge black walnut tree plantation in 10 to 20 years.
> Black walnut logs are in big demand now and the trees are referred to as "Black Gold". During my absence someone cut down 4 prime veneer trees from my property. Estimated value $5K to $6K. Real bummer!
> JJK


I would be fairly incensed at such a robbery. This would have required quite some noise to accomplish. Were you away on vacation?


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## Brufab (Dec 4, 2021)

Yea that's insane, sorry to hear


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## Jim K (Dec 5, 2021)

xraydaniel said:


> I would be fairly incensed at such a robbery. This would have required quite some noise to accomplish. Were you away on vacation?


This is a second home in a rural area so not there all the time. What makes me more incensed is being 99% sure who stole the logs, but according to the police, "no eye witness, no case". Keeps me awake at night sometimes.


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## xraydaniel (Dec 5, 2021)

Jim K said:


> This is a second home in a rural area so not there all the time. What makes me more incensed is being 99% sure who stole the logs, but according to the police, "no eye witness, no case". Keeps me awake at night sometimes.


There is the eye for eye option with a covert operation of course.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 2, 2022)

Sorry guys I’ve been busy! Landing pics you saw from Thanksgiving and first cut started 2 Fridays ago. Oaks are about 70 y/o with a rough ring count. Cordwood pile next to the oak and across it is the ewp. This is just the first slow week’s cut. My logger will be there until March at least.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 2, 2022)

Apparently the ewp has alot of beetle damage.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 2, 2022)

My logger with his Clark skidder. He’s got an ASV too and will bring in the fellerbuncher soon. It’s still a selective cut with pretty spaced out timber. I marked a few extra high grade oak on top of the mostly low grade cuts.


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## Brufab (Feb 2, 2022)

Sweet pics! Looks like a good time over there.


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## slowp (Feb 3, 2022)

Reminds me of how much I hate the big landings needed because self loader flatbed log trucks, get used instead of piggyback log trucks. I tried, but I could not convert the loggers there to our PNW ways of doing things... Piggy back trucks, loaders (or frequent self loader trips) and small landings make for more growing ground for trees.,,

I'm a fan of small landings.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 3, 2022)

slowp said:


> Reminds me of how much I hate the big landings needed because self loader flatbed log trucks, get used instead of piggyback log trucks. I tried, but I could not convert the loggers there to our PNW ways of doing things... Piggy back trucks, loaders (or frequent self loader trips) and small landings make for more growing ground for trees.,,
> 
> I'm a fan of small landings.


Would you call that a small or large landing? I have no clue.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 3, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> Would you call that a small or large landing? I have no clue.


for a self loader west coast truck, thats a massive landing. (which isn't necessarilly a bad thing... beats loading next to a house and over the neighbors cars...)

for a typical east coast hay rack truck, its pretty small. 

for a normal west coast truck its still on the big side, but not terribly so.


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## SweetMK (Feb 3, 2022)

I did the EXACT opposite of what the OP is doing,,
I clear cut 30 acres, and select cut about 3 acres.







I started by putting the timber out for bids, and I learned much,,
I was in no rush, it took 2 years for me to get my required price the the wood.






I made a deal with a forester, you have so many months to sell, or the deal is off.
He failed to get within 2/3 of my set minimum. So, I said no sale,, to him.






Then, out of the blue, 2 years later (2016) a company drove up my driveway with a blank check,, on a Saturday morning.
He asked me what he was to write on the check,, I told him the #,, he wrote the check.
No lawyer, no forester, just a handshake,, and a check,,
I cashed it (deposited) first thing Monday morning,,
By 10:00 A.M, the equipment was coming up the driveway.

Two different state foresters had told me, and showed me that the forest was mature
the best approach was clear cut.

I could write a best seller on what we went through to sell the timber.
It was fun, I was retired, did not need to sell, and waited for a golden opportunity.
It came,,
They took 160 loads of wood, we took a pic of each and every load,,











The logger had a D7 there, and he left me MANY new ATV trails, that I had not ever dreamed of.
My grandchildren love to come ride the trails.

If you are REALLY bored, you can watch the video we used to sell the timber,,
I do not think a video had been used before, many of the guys bidding told me they enjoyed it,,


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2022)

A yarder landing. This is downhill yarding and is not usually done because downhill yarding is slow--production can be cut in half, more dangerous, and requires a good yarder engineer. This is a good landing--fairly small, yet meets safety standards. For downhill yarding, it is best that the ground flattens out before hitting the landing or chances are the yarder will take a beating as well as it not being too safe. This landing is just a turnout in the road. The logtruck turns around somewhere down the road, backs in, and the loader takes the trailer off and it is hooked up on the landing. Ideally, we don't make landings for decking logs, we make them just big enough to be safe and get logs on trucks.


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2022)

A landing on a busy, for there, road. See the log truck waiting while the one is getting loaded.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 14, 2022)

The cut is still on but the window for cordage and a wetland crossing has closed due to missing the 2 week freeze. The cutting plan is good until 1/2024 so we will have another go next year. That stand was not very valuable anyways. One load was taken end of last week. Still about 15 acres to work through.


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## Brufab (Feb 14, 2022)

I feel ya we have 40 acres with a river that splits the property were getting some logged out in the future, trouble is alot is bottomland and floods, they said they would lay a flatbed trailer over the river. River goes from about 20-25' wide 3' deep to 180' wide and 12' deep. When flooded the water is above the footbridge. The river is between the two cement piers.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 14, 2022)

Brufab said:


> I feel ya we have 40 acres with a river that splits the property were getting some logged out in the future, trouble is alot is bottomland and floods, they said they would lay a flatbed trailer over the river. River goes from about 20-25' wide 3' deep to 180' wide and 12' deep. When flooded the water is above the footbridge. The river is between the two cement piers. View attachment 965029
> View attachment 965028


Wetlands can be a pain in the butt when there’s one lone fairy shrimp or plant found there deeming it a vernal pool or otherwise. This was going to be one of the crossings but a certified vernal pool is in right behind that pallet. Now instead of that crossing the DCR forester wants the slid path to cross about 3 large wetlands with about 3ft deep muck making a much more difficult path. Smh 

That’s false green hellebore also known as Indian poke.


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## Brufab (Feb 14, 2022)

The only thing the forester guy said is if they fell a tree in the river that's big trouble for them. He walked the property with us and explained everything. But I have heard stories that it only takes one place or something to mess things up.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 19, 2022)

New skid path being cut onto the ridge.


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## Brufab (Feb 19, 2022)

Nice! reminds me of the one me and my dad cut into his 2.5 are build site we logged. If you look closely you can see the birch tree on the right is still there. Not a 25 acre operation but we felt pretty proud ourselves from the start to finish on 2.5 acres.


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## xraydaniel (Feb 19, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Nice! reminds me of the one me and my dad cut into his 2.5 are build site we logged. If you look closely you can see the birch tree on the right is still there. Not a 25 acre operation but we felt pretty proud ourselves from the start to finish on 2.5 acres.View attachment 966338
> View attachment 966339


Did you chip it all or burn the slash?


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## Brufab (Feb 19, 2022)

Burnt most of it. Saved some for firewood, and had a pro logger come in and take some monster oaks and some real straight popple trees which paid for the 30' culvert pipe and driveway entrance and some driveway gravel. Probly had about 30 monster brushpiles and burnt alot of firewood maybe 15 cords I'm guessing. We picked the lot clean of all sticks and dead fall and flush cut anything 10" and under. The excavator guys never seen something so clean before after we were done. They dug a hole and put all the big stumps in it and got about 20-30 yards of fill dirt


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## xraydaniel (Mar 7, 2022)

Last loads for the season. Next winter we may address another stand beyond a wetland crossing.


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## Brufab (Mar 7, 2022)

Awesome pics!


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## Brufab (Mar 7, 2022)

Even winter time is trouble where we want to get logged out, for some reason in michigan at our property once oct 1st hits it stays flooded all winter. 2nd pic is of me standing on bridge when not flooded. See that brushpile up in the upper left of ice pic its where the ground is tilled in the summer pic river goes from 20-25' wide to almost 200' wide


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## xraydaniel (Mar 8, 2022)

Once the mill tallys come in I’ll post em here. Red and Black oak is going for about $450 mbf right now. Highest I’ve seen it before.


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## Brufab (Mar 9, 2022)

Thanks for that info. We have mostly red oak and maple, the guy said a mix between hard and soft maple when he did a walk through. I'm guessing alot of the trees in the bottomland the first 10-15' of trunk will be no good from rot or swelling up all the time from being submerged in water for months at a time.


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## xraydaniel (Mar 9, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Thanks for that info. We have mostly red oak and maple, the guy said a mix between hard and soft maple when he did a walk through. I'm guessing alot of the trees in the bottomland the first 10-15' of trunk will be no good from rot or swelling up all the time from being submerged in water for months at a time.


Out of all the red oak that was cut on my property I can count only two stumps where one had heart rot going up about 2 feet from the ground and another one that was hollow only about 3 feet up so it’s a good thing I did the cut when I did. All the other logs had nice clean wood.


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## Drifter2406 (Mar 10, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> My logger with his Clark skidder. He’s got an ASV too and will bring in the fellerbuncher soon. It’s still a selective cut with pretty spaced out timber. I marked a few extra high grade oak on top of the mostly low grade cuts.View attachment 961513
> View attachment 961514
> View attachment 961515
> View attachment 961516


Blimey, look how many logs she's felled, she knows what she's doing, start them young over there then?


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## xraydaniel (Mar 11, 2022)

Drifter2406 said:


> Blimey, look how many logs she's felled, she knows what she's doing, start them young over there then?


Pulls her own weight and then some!


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## xraydaniel (Mar 18, 2022)

Lot clearing began today. About 2 acres


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## xraydaniel (Mar 20, 2022)




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## xraydaniel (Mar 21, 2022)

There are just a few more trees in the foreground that need to be removed and then the cleanup of all the tops and debris being chipped up through Wednesday. After clear cutting this 2 acre spot it’s even more clear that this is gonna be an excellent homesite. Job done until next winter.


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## xraydaniel (Mar 26, 2022)

Nice for a starter camp


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## xraydaniel (Mar 31, 2022)




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## Brufab (Mar 31, 2022)

So that's the landing or your build site? Looks really good.


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## xraydaniel (Mar 31, 2022)

Brufab said:


> So that's the landing or your build site? Looks really good.


That’s the probable build site. I know I said earlier in this thread that I would not be doing the clear cut but using the revenue now while the machines were there made sense. I plan for a well and grading/clearing for beginners so that at least I can get a proper campsite out of it before I build.


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## hamesadam (Jun 17, 2022)

i love these types of trees


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## ValleyForge (Jun 17, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Even winter time is trouble where we want to get logged out, for some reason in michigan at our property once oct 1st hits it stays flooded all winter. 2nd pic is of me standing on bridge when not flooded. See that brushpile up in the upper left of ice pic its where the ground is tilled in the summer pic river goes from 20-25' wide to almost 200' wideView attachment 971158
> View attachment 971159



i had to build a bridge over something similar…it’s a swamp half the year…


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## xraydaniel (Jun 17, 2022)

Some spring pics


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## xraydaniel (Jun 17, 2022)

Some of the mill tallys as promised. Suffice it to say that with inventory building at the mills now and prices for lumber dropping I could not have picked a better time for this harvest.


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## atpchas (Jun 18, 2022)

ValleyForge said:


> i had to build a bridge over something similar…it’s a swamp half the year…


Beautiful bridge bridge - what did you use for support under all the planking? Steel beams? Wood beams? Logs?
I've had a hand in replacing a bridge supported by redwood logs with steel I-beams (40' long) and installing a much shorter bridge (~20' long) supported by 18-20" redwood logs, so I can appreciate the efforts involved.


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## Bill G (Jun 18, 2022)

I am truly not trying to be negative but when I see that Cherry price all I can say is WOW. I know there was not much of it but the really stole that. Thank god you did not have any Walnut or I would have hated to see what they paid, The rest of the species I am do not know with the exception of the Oak seems you did Ok on , well better than OK it was very good. The Cherry ..........no


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## ValleyForge (Jun 18, 2022)

atpchas said:


> Beautiful bridge bridge - what did you use for support under all the planking? Steel beams? Wood beams? Logs?
> I've had a hand in replacing a bridge supported by redwood logs with steel I-beams (40' long) and installing a much shorter bridge (~20' long) supported by 18-20" redwood logs, so I can appreciate the efforts involved.


Thanks!! It was a fun build in the heat of summer…lol

I used tractor supply’s 8-inch fence posts for the piers. They are pressure treated with CCA since they are exempt for farm use. I put 12-inch diameter holes in with 2-feet of concrete base as a foundation And put them at 6-foot centers. I needed it to support my tractor with a full 1 CY bucket of dirt. The beams are all 2x10 pressure treated And the deck is 2x6 pressure treated Nailed with ring shanked nails to give some flexibility. The abutments on either side are dry stack 60# concrete sacks.


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## xraydaniel (Jun 18, 2022)

Bill G said:


> I am truly not trying to be negative but when I see that Cherry price all I can say is WOW. I know there was not much of it but the really stole that. Thank god you did not have any Walnut or I would have hated to see what they paid, The rest of the species I am do not know with the exception of the Oak seems you did Ok on , well better than OK it was very good. The Cherry ..........no


The cherry here is fairly low grade and on my plot before they get thick the chancre takes over. It’s not a tree that thrives well in a dense forest. This was a low grade selective cut. The oak component is very substantial here and I let a few high grade go to help increase the revenue and get a clearcut out of it cost free. There are still so many oaks


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## xraydaniel (Nov 7, 2022)

A few shots this fall and bonus game shots from summer. Still haven’t gotten around to doing a stump and grade job due to capital allocation elsewhere but the campsite is active for hunting now


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## Brufab (Nov 7, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> Some of the mill tallys as promised. Suffice it to say that with inventory building at the mills now and prices for lumber dropping I could not have picked a better time for this harvest.
> 
> View attachment 996589
> View attachment 996590
> ...


Appreciate the pics of the invoice/tickets. Now that wood is back to normal again the $ anticipated from the logging has been cut in half I imagine


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## Bill G (Nov 7, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Appreciate the pics of the invoice/tickets. Now that wood is back to normal again the $ anticipated from the logging has been cut in half I imagine


There is no doubt softwood/construction lumber has dropped a lot. It is still considerably higher than it was prior to covid. An example is 2x4 studs are still close to twice what the were pre Covid. That is better than the 400 percent increase they took during covid. I am not sure if hardwood lumber has fallen on the retail side. I am not in a position to check and see what it is locally now


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