# Private land harvest questions



## Saiso (Jan 24, 2019)

Hello everyone!
Before we start, I’m located in NB, Canada so I understand there’s a lot of variances in the answers to my questions but I would still like some insight.

My family and I currently live off grid in a small cabin on 100 acres. We are planning our future homestead area and realistically would have to fall into some money for us to comfortably build our desired home.

Long story short..
We are hoping to harvest some of our acreage on our second lot (50 acres). The access is fine. We considered a CC but would prefer 2-3 strip cuts across the lot. This would probably get done through someone private with machinery I’m guessing? We have big SW such as balsam fir and spruce there and also decent size firewood (mostly red maple). Any tolerant HW and EWP would not be cut (there wouldn’t be enough worth their work)

How big of an area is normally worth their time? Does this depend on what kind of machinery someone has? Does a CC offer a much greater income than strip cuts? Realistically, how much money would a private landowner like myself make if all I do is flag the appropriated areas to be cut? Am I responsible for anything safety wise or anything else?

I’m also in touch with friends at work so hopefully soon I’ll have LIDAR information, volumes, dimensions, etc that should facilitate whether we do strips, CC, or a combination of both? 

We don’t want to feel like we’re cutting all of our land (we love trees, I’m a forest ranger and we live off grid after all) but understand that a prescribed cut isn’t bad and we would like to make some money to help with our situation. 

Thank you!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 25, 2019)

Realistically you need to talk to someone from your area that understands your markets and regulations.

But a good contractor should only need a permit and the proper areas flagged, they will be saddled with everything else (laws vary as to who's responsible for safety... but should be on them)

As for profit? It's all dependent on your market


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## bitzer (Jan 25, 2019)

Honestly you are probably looking at pulp stumpage prices. Anywhere from $5-$50/cord depending on your markets is what you the landowner might make. Northy pretty much nailed the rest. Why not select cut the whole thing unless it needs clearing? There's a prescription for everything.


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## madhatte (Jan 25, 2019)

I'm curious about your LiDAR data. Raw point cloud? CHM? DEM? Derived hillshade? Will you be analyzing the data yourself, or will somebody else be? Who did the flight, and how much did it cost? What's the resolution? 

I, uh, get pretty jazzed about new datasets, sorry not sorry.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 25, 2019)

northmanlogging said:


> Realistically you need to talk to someone from your area that understands your markets and regulations.
> 
> But a good contractor should only need a permit and the proper areas flagged, they will be saddled with everything else (laws vary as to who's responsible for safety... but should be on them)
> 
> As for profit? It's all dependent on your market



Permit? Never heard of anything like that.

Here if it's private land, can cut it all.


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## Saiso (Jan 26, 2019)

Selective cutting may


madhatte said:


> I'm curious about your LiDAR data. Raw point cloud? CHM? DEM? Derived hillshade? Will you be analyzing the data yourself, or will somebody else be? Who did the flight, and how much did it cost? What's the resolution?
> 
> I, uh, get pretty jazzed about new datasets, sorry not sorry.



Flown by the province I’m guessing? I’m not too familiar with LIDAR myself as it is not our “mandate” so I’ll be getting assistance through people at work (mostly foresters). We have access to many GIS files through work so, some LIDAR. In the past, he was able to formulate some data in no time with volumes and also showing me where the bigger stuff “should” be. This would only help us determine whether we do strips, CC or a combination of both. I would go out in the field and walk the proposed areas to see how accurate LIDAR was. 

Thanks!


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## madhatte (Jan 26, 2019)

Ask your GIS guy if he has a derived layer for basal area. If he does, you can directly measure volume by the following equation in GIS using raster math functions:

((Area (trees)/Area (land)) * (Volume (trees) _[this ratio is known as Basal Area, or BA]_/Basal Area (trees)) _[this ratio is known as volume-to-basal-area, or VBAR] _)/Area (land) = Volume

Height = CHM-DEM _where [CHM is the highest elevation value for a given XY coordinate] and [DEM is the lowest elevation value for the same XY coordinate] (that is, highest minus lowest is how high the thing is)_

VBAR = Height * (local correction factor, here for DF it's pretty close to 2, I can steer you to the primary references if you're interested)
BA is the hardest LiDAR-derived metric to rasterize, but it's worth it because it has lots of applications. 

so in GIS, using raster math

VBAR * BA
________ = Volume

A

In ArcGIS, you can do this most easily by using the summary statistics from the layer in question. I haven't done this analysis in QGIS yet so I don't know the shortcuts but since QGIS is largely derived from GRASS which is well known for being super powerful for raster analysis, I have no doubt that it can do the same analysis. 

Apologies if this got way nerdy way quick, I just want to know that this set of instructions is on the internet somewhere as I'm not an academic and you can't look my work up on JSTOR. 

Please feel free to PM me here any time about this stuff and I will either answer your questions or find somebody who can.


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## Saiso (Jan 26, 2019)

madhatte said:


> Ask your GIS guy if he has a derived layer for basal area. If he does, you can directly measure volume by the following equation in GIS using raster math functions:
> 
> ((Area (trees)/Area (land)) * (Volume (trees) _[this ratio is known as Basal Area, or BA]_/Basal Area (trees)) _[this ratio is known as volume-to-basal-area, or VBAR] _)/Area (land) = Volume
> 
> ...



Wow, you’re a genius haha. 
I’ll definitely bring up this post to my GIS guys see if they can relate and follow your instructions.

I’m hoping he replies to my email first and then my family and I can stop in to do some prep work. 

I’m currently on a temporarily parental leave, otherwise I would have done some prep work before. 

Thank you for your replies everyone


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## madhatte (Jan 26, 2019)

Using that method, I can usually get within about 20% of scaled volume. I've come up half or double scaled, but even with that much error, it's still within an order of magnitude, which is more than adequate for a five-minute estimate done at my desk.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 26, 2019)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> Permit? Never heard of anything like that.
> 
> Here if it's private land, can cut it all.


Canada is looking better and better...

The state controls everything down here


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 26, 2019)

northmanlogging said:


> Canada is looking better and better...
> 
> The state controls everything down here



AK is sort of the last "free" state for most things I suppose. Most Alaska are pretty anti-.gov. Let the .gov handle a few things to keep basic order and rule but other than that, they don't need their fingers in anything else.

I grew up in Maine, most of the family is still there. My brother has ~100 ares, was saying that he would not be able to to just go in an cut it all down unless it was to be turned into farmland. Would have to file a logging/land use permit and go from there. Typically can cut something like 50-60% I believe (I may be wrong about that). Either way I was floored at the b/s. Here for the most part, if it's your land, especially if not in the city or suburbs, you can do what you want.


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## Saiso (Jan 26, 2019)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> AK is sort of the last "free" state for most things I suppose. Most Alaska are pretty anti-.gov. Let the .gov handle a few things to keep basic order and rule but other than that, they don't need their fingers in anything else.
> 
> I grew up in Maine, most of the family is still there. My brother has ~100 ares, was saying that he would not be able to to just go in an cut it all down unless it was to be turned into farmland. Would have to file a logging/land use permit and go from there. Typically can cut something like 50-60% I believe (I may be wrong about that). Either way I was floored at the b/s. Here for the most part, if it's your land, especially if not in the city or suburbs, you can do what you want.


I think that’s what it is here in NB, Canada. I’ve never cut any big acreage on my land but have seen other private land operations and many of them are big CC’s with nothing done after.


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## bitzer (Jan 27, 2019)

Here it can go county to county. You do have to file a cutting notice with the county before a timber sale stateswide(you're supposed to anyway). Some counties you can slick it right off and some have really goofy rules. Usually the closer you get to urban areas the worse it is.


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## Skeans (Jan 27, 2019)

Oregon we need a permit for the cutting then one for power equipment use then if there’s creeks ect a plan has to be drawn out to protect them. This permit number is what we use for a purchase order with the mill as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Saiso (Jan 27, 2019)

Yeah, we issue work permits if there’s 2 or more workers and if any large machinery. I’ll get one done for myself even if I’ll be only one cutting with a chainsaw. They’re free, and saves your butt from any complication.


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## grizz55chev (Jan 27, 2019)

I’m in California, where all permits have their origins.


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## ArtB (Jan 27, 2019)

northmanlogging said:


> The state controls everything down here



No joke. Even worse if in or near incorporated area. My house is on 4 acres 1 block outside city limits. A block farther north inside city, and I'd be limited to cutting 6 trees a year larger th;an 6" DBH! More than that inside city limits takes a city council resolution which is about impossible (city motto is 'tree city btw") - or a development permit and $50k 'fees' to cram 30 houses on the site. Last time there was an annexation vote in the area (it failed) I cut down 50 trees the week before. I let a Christmas tree planting get away from me 20 years ago so have close to 600 trees now bigger than 6". Will be busy beaver thinning if there is another annexation vote.


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## Saiso (Jan 27, 2019)

ArtB said:


> No joke. Even worse if in or near incorporated area. My house is on 4 acres 1 block outside city limits. A block farther north inside city, and I'd be limited to cutting 6 trees a year larger th;an 6" DBH! More than that inside city limits takes a city council resolution which is about impossible (city motto is 'tree city btw") - or a development permit and $50k 'fees' to cram 30 houses on the site. Last time there was an annexation vote in the area (it failed) I cut down 50 trees the week before. I let a Christmas tree planting get away from me 20 years ago so have close to 600 trees now bigger than 6". Will be busy beaver thinning if there is another annexation vote.


Wow... Canada is awesome


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## Little Al (Jan 28, 2019)

As said in posts#2/3 If you divide the area & coppice sections you can return & re harvest with knowledge you can harvest from the same trees for a 100 years or more


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## Woody912 (Jan 28, 2019)

Little Al said:


> As said in posts#2/3 If you divide the area & coppice sections you can return & re harvest with knowledge you can harvest from the same trees for a 100 years or more


For some reason coppice farming is not very successful here, very high % of hollow trees has been my observation


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## Saiso (Jan 28, 2019)

Little Al said:


> As said in posts#2/3 If you divide the area & coppice sections you can return & re harvest with knowledge you can harvest from the same trees for a 100 years or more


Yup. We would rather get a certain acreage cut now and then I would selectively cut the rest as we need it (firewood, wood to get milled, etc)


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## madhatte (Jan 28, 2019)

Woody912 said:


> For some reason coppice farming is not very successful here, very high % of hollow trees has been my observation



Coppicing as a harvest method is not a one-and-done. Some species coppice very well (lookin' at you, maple) and others not at all (pine family) and everybody else is along a continuum somewhere. Even in a species that does readily grow back from stump shoots, if you want good wood later, you will have to tend those trees. The stump of the earlier tree is a big scar and a vector for disease. Not all shoots are created equally. You'll want to seal the stump and prune back all but the best shoots, keeping in mind that the first couple of feet of the future butt log will almost certainly be defective due to some combination of sweep and rot. That said, it's silly not to take advantage of this ability in species that will regenerate this way. Do your homework, and then do the tending, and you'll be fine.


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## Deleted member 110241 (Jan 28, 2019)

madhatte said:


> I'm curious about your LiDAR data. Raw point cloud? CHM? DEM? Derived hillshade? Will you be analyzing the data yourself, or will somebody else be? Who did the flight, and how much did it cost? What's the resolution?
> 
> I, uh, get pretty jazzed about new datasets, sorry not sorry.



What does those acronyms mean? 
We use quite a bit of data from aerial lidar in our GIS-programs at the company I work for. I find that the data is very good at measuring tree height and volume (per area, we use hectar) but not very good on basal area or basal area mean diameter. It's not very good at identifying tree species or the number of trees per area.
Our latest version of hillshade is amazing though.


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## madhatte (Jan 28, 2019)

CHM = Canopy Height Model
DEM = Digital Elevation Model

These models are derived as absolute values from first returns (CHM) and last returns (DEM) so heights of things are the difference between these models. Hillshade is a graphical representative of an elevation raster, and does not include any of the embedded cell data. Raw point cloud is exactly that: the raw data that all of these other models are derived from.

BA is also a derived value but it requires extra field validation. Our data has shown itself to be robust and useful. 

Species and per-area count can be inferred a bunch of ways: crown shape, color (from airphoto), summer flight-winter flight raster math, or existing stand, soils, reforestation, and hydrology layers. Field validation always has the final say.


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## birddogsrule (Mar 21, 2019)

Choppy, In Maine you have to also pay the town your cutting in a percentage of the woods value.


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## jolj (Sep 5, 2022)

I am at the other end of the world near the sea shore, one hundred miles above the ocean.
We have short needle pines & we had to have fifteen acres just to get the man to harvest.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 5, 2022)

jolj said:


> I am at the other end of the world near the sea shore, one hundred miles above the ocean.
> We have short needle pines & we had to have fifteen acres just to get the man to harvest.


different markets different problems, as I understand, there was a great deal of pine planted for the pulp market, then the pulp market turned into emails, so now all that cash crop is just about worthless.


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## jolj (Sep 5, 2022)

You forgot TP


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## northmanlogging (Sep 5, 2022)

jolj said:


> You forgot TP


easily covered by lumber waste. without newspapers, magazines, letters, etc etc the pulp market tanked, still hasn't really recovered. Even around here a load of pulp logs barely covers trucking. And prices are up recently.


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## jolj (Sep 5, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> easily covered by lumber waste. without newspapers, magazines, letters, etc etc the pulp market tanked, still hasn't really recovered. Even around here a load of pulp logs barely covers trucking. And prices are up recently.


It has been four years, but I got $1000.00 an acre for tree that I wanted to remove & most of the stumps are got also.
I do not know what that is where you are but that was real good for here.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 5, 2022)

jolj said:


> It has been four years, but I got $1000.00 an acre for tree that I wanted to remove & most of the stumps are got also.
> I do not know what that is where you are but that was real good for here.


depends, but right now your looking at $5000-7000 per acre, much much more if its cedar. Double that if you do it yourself.


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