# Who is at fault here. Climber or ground crew?



## avalancher (Nov 12, 2008)

This video was posted on the joke forum, but I thought a critical look by the pros would shed some light on who screwed up here. Take a look at the 4th video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9qcPh5iM4E


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## treemandan (Nov 12, 2008)

stuff like this is set off by many factors, people and events prior... everybody has blame.
I brought this question up before though and if that had been me getting jounced around like that there would have been a very sorry groundy.
Who knows in this case. maybe the guy didn't even have a groundy. Its a hard vid to watch in any case.
No matter what the pole is going to move. Everybody should know how to handle it. The times I was beat up like that it was groundy error but that doesn't mean it was his fault. make sense?


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## avalancher (Nov 12, 2008)

treemandan said:


> stuff like this is set off by many factors, people and events prior... everybody has blame.
> I brought this question up before though and if that had been me getting jounced around like that there would have been a very sorry groundy.
> Who knows in this case. maybe the guy didn't even have a groundy. Its a hard vid to watch in any case.
> No matter what the pole is going to move. Everybody should know how to handle it. The times I was beat up like that it was groundy error but that doesn't mean it was his fault. make sense?




Yep, makes sense. I know that if that had been me I would had to climb on down and change my shorts. Like you said, it was a hard video to watch.


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## Climbing Cutter (Nov 12, 2008)

In the original video you can hear the groundman yell sorry.


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## treemandan (Nov 12, 2008)

Climbing Cutter said:


> In the original video you can hear the groundman yell sorry.



Yeah... that is usually the case. I did a horrid stint at this place that had the worst. I thought I had learned awhile before but them but I still never had it as bad as that guy.
This message is approvved by THE DAN, dumper of tops big as whales onto locked off ropes far below, un-aided and alone... and that is what makes me think " Why the hell didn't the guy even think he was going to have to hold on". 
The combination of things... with some its like a crap shoot, like its their LAST day.


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## squad143 (Nov 12, 2008)

As always, gravity is to blame.


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## RedlineIt (Nov 12, 2008)

> In the original video you can hear the groundman yell sorry.



Yeah, I've seen/heard that version too. Whatever was going on down on the ground, it did not go to plan. The top does run for ways but then it abruptly stops. Was the groundie standing on the rope like an idiot? Was he inexperienced and thought the run had been enough? What was the groundie given to use as a braking system? Another tree? A truck hitch? I've seen a pitchy section of bull rope mess up a nice two wrap run on a port-a-wrap.

As for the climber, he was not ready. You can ask for a run, you can insist on a run, you can ask them if they're ready to let it run, you can train your guys how to let it run, you can supply perfect equipment to allow a run, you still gotta be ready for a less than beautiful run.

And as fun as it is to blow a big top, if it is being square rigged on the same spar I'm on, I'm climbing up higher and dinking out smaller bits.


RedlineIt


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## oldirty (Nov 12, 2008)

if you listen close you can still hear the "sorry".


locked it up good and tight on that guy. that right there is what i would consider the tree man's wrecked convertible. time for a change of shorts.



did you happen to catch the jackass in the last part of that video!? still laughing.


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 12, 2008)

Yup I agree.... on a spar that small you have a very high chance of going for a nasty ride. I usually drop the top into an acceptable area or have the groundies run it all the way to the ground. Hitting the ground slow on a rope top first will do very very little damage to a lawn if any. Usually I will drop the top nice and flat. Maybe on a few sheets of plywood so no damage and little risk to me. Gotten shook hard a few too many times by a nervous groundie.... Mike


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## lxt (Nov 12, 2008)

LOL! that last one was hysterical, brought that womans large thighs right up to her head!! guys im dying after watching that! I can barely type! LOL!!!


LXT...........


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## parrisw (Nov 13, 2008)

ha ha ha. I've seen it before, and laugh my ass off every time. I love the exercise one, freaking priceless.


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## randyg (Nov 13, 2008)

*Who's At Fault???*

Longer run by groundie makes less swing for sure BUT, leaving that stub to hang onto was perhaps the biggest mistake that climber made. Took one in the ribs once just about like that guy. Nothing to laugh about. If you can stay on the back side with stiff arms on the top, and the swing is just front to back, pretty mild. When the sway gets to the side, can be more like tryin to stay that 8 seconds on the bull . . . I can only imagine the bull thing.


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## Groundman One (Nov 13, 2008)

The climber could have gone higher. I don't see any reason to cut that big a top unless it's a free fall. He should have known, and the groundman should have known as well, that that much weight playing off that thickness of trunk was going to lead to some serious swing-ation. 

I'm curious how the top was tied off at the base. With that much weight coming down over houses, the ground crew is apt to be conservative and that means a greater chance of the falling piece locking up after the cut. For the climber to expect that size of a piece to come down in a smooth and controlled fashion is asking a lot. Too much in my opinion.

My climber would have gone higher, removed more branches, and maybe gone for a slow and controlled rip with the rope locked for minimal swing. That guy had too much loose. it was unreasonable for him to think a piece that size would have that much a free fall and then go straight into a smooth descent.

Badly done. Mostly on the climber's side. As the groundpounder, I would have protested the setup and only gone through with it if the climber acknowledged the risk and accepted it.


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## Paulkl (Nov 13, 2008)

i have had somthing like that happen to me, i was topping out a pin oak and my ground guys tired the rope off and the whip landed a nub right into my chest... Needless to say i made him sorrychainsaw:


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## Ax-man (Nov 13, 2008)

That vid has been around for awhile. Lot of discussion on it when it first hit the net.

Popular opinon was that it was the ground crew's foul up by not letting the piece run enough and stopping it abruptly causing the whip or backlash effect. 

I think the climber could have used more common sense and taken a smaller piece or just climbed up a little higher and limbed it more and then dumped the top with a pull rope. Anyone that has climbed enough trees knows or should know when they are going to be in for ride from the reaction force of a top breaking loose wether it is in a freefall situation or is being roped down and need to plan accordingly. In my case I would have doubled up on the lanyard with a second wrap if I was going to do it the way this guy did. I may have gotten knocked around a little but not thrown around like a ragdoll on that spar. 

Without being there and not seeing the whole picture it is hard to say who was at fault. For all we know the guy who took the hit could have been a contract climber and took for granted the skill of the ground crew. 

I think both the climber and the ground crew are equally to blame on this one. Unfortunely the guy up in the tree took a bad hit on this one and may have been injured. 

Like TreeCo stated it takes teamwork to make a lowering like this work the way it should but doesn't always go according to plan. 

Larry


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## pdqdl (Nov 14, 2008)

*Leave some damping material !*

I was reading another post elsewhere on AS about lion tailing and the damping effects of inner branches. I was thinking of this very same video when I concluded that taking large tops out might be facilitated by leaving one half of the branches on the lower trunk, opposite the side you would drop the large top onto. The sway would have significant damping, and the climber would not get shaken off.

While there is certainly a greater risk of hanging the top up with difficulty lowering it, if you left one half of the branches on the tree, it would NEVER sway back and forth like that one did in this video.

I seldom get to see a large pine like this one. Does anyone with more experience in tall pines have any comments on this idea?


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## southsoundtree (Nov 14, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I was reading another post elsewhere on AS about lion tailing and the damping effects of inner branches. I was thinking of this very same video when I concluded that taking large tops out might be facilitated by leaving one half of the branches on the lower trunk, opposite the side you would drop the large top onto. The sway would have significant damping, and the climber would not get shaken off.
> 
> While there is certainly a greater risk of hanging the top up with difficulty lowering it, if you left one half of the branches on the tree, it would NEVER sway back and forth like that one did in this video.
> 
> I seldom get to see a large pine like this one. Does anyone with more experience in tall pines have any comments on this idea?




+1.

Even if the climber just left a handful of branches to the right and left sides right up near the top, he would have had significant dampening effects without having to move his tie-ins through a lot of branches. 

Go smaller.

I've told my groundies that, as much as possible, they should be ready to get a little trunk wrap friction as needed in the even that the port-a-wrap doesn't have enough friction. This seems to give the extra measure of control without as great a risk of locking it up. 

Always requires a good stack of rope, out in front of the groundie, so nothing can snag his feet. 

As stated in the thread, running it all the way to the ground with the top hitting tip first, as possible by ground level targets, should create minimal, if any, damage, while still staying within a tight dropzone. Coulda been a house beneath, though.


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## avalancher (Nov 14, 2008)

southsoundtree said:


> +1.
> As stated in the thread, running it all the way to the ground with the top hitting tip first, as possible by ground level targets, should create minimal, if any, damage, while still staying within a tight dropzone. Coulda been a house beneath, though.



You would think though that if there was ANYTHING that could be damaged below that he would have taken smaller pieces down at a time. I know I wouldnt dream of taking that much top down in one piece if it was above a house.


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## JTinaTree (Nov 14, 2008)

That video has been picked to death on this site. Ekka posted a good review on what went wrong on both of the workers parts, Ekka included slow motion views in the video also...if you search on here Im sure you can find it.. The are many factors into what happened on that Tree, but the main thing was the lowering line was not allowed to run by the groundman...


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## jomoco (Nov 14, 2008)

The climber was at fault, period.

jomoco


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## oldirty (Nov 14, 2008)

hey pdq. we got some beefy white pine out this way. getting away from the city and into the burbs they start getting real big. obviously not like the studs they got out west but still a big tree, to me at least.


fun tree to work. straight up and down for the most part.



if you are getting a good pull while taking a top expect the hinge to pop a c hair earlier than you would like. if you gotta lower the branches its not bad because they are all right there and you can use the branch above the one your cutting for the lowering point. 

in regards to piecing out the log, if i am in the bucket i'll go bigger than i would if i am on the stem. lol. i'd rather make a couple extra cuts than going to big and end up snap'n what i am standing on.


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## JTinaTree (Nov 15, 2008)

jomoco said:


> The climber was at fault, period.
> 
> jomoco



The Groundman you mean? That pole shake would not have been half of that if the rope would have been let run proper...


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## jomoco (Nov 15, 2008)

JTinaTree said:


> The Groundman you mean? That pole shake would not have been half of that if the rope would have been let run proper...



I mean the climber. It was a relatively mild ride, and had he had his arms locked and pushing against the trunk, he could have easily rode it out instead of getting thrashed about like a helpless rookie rag doll.

Look at the video again closely, the idiot has his arms bent the whole time, big mistake.

Are you a rookie too, like him?

jomoco


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## JTinaTree (Nov 16, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I mean the climber. It was a relatively mild ride, and had he had his arms locked and pushing against the trunk, he could have easily rode it out instead of getting thrashed about like a helpless rookie rag doll.
> 
> Look at the video again closely, the idiot has his arms bent the whole time, big mistake.
> 
> ...



I don't know jomco lets see, is someone who has been climbing/rigging for three years a rookie in your mind??

In the vid its obvious that guy was not prepared for what was about to happen..


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## jomoco (Nov 16, 2008)

JTinaTree said:


> I don't know jomco lets see, is someone who has been climbing/rigging for three years a rookie in your mind??
> 
> In the vid its obvious that guy was not prepared for what was about to happen..



If you don't take a double wrap with your lanyard and lock your arms straight and push against the stem when you catch heads and take the bull ride, then you're a rookie who's eventually going to get hurt no matter how long you've been gambling on your groundcrew and luck to save you.

A chainsaw lanyard is nice when you have to move quick to brace yourself, atleast that's how the pro's I know do it.

Fore thought and preparation are a rigger's best friend JT.

jomoco


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## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2008)

*Let's over-analyze this some more !*

It occurs to me that bracing his arms probably would not have helped. When he finished the cut he was not exactly opposite the direction of the falling top. Hence, he was partly on the side of the oscillation, and probably would have been knocked loose no matter how strong he was.

He didn't look like a rookie to me. As the top went over, he calmly snapped his chainsaw on in preparation for the shake, and *it looks to me like he did brace his arms*. Even the very best of us misjudges a falling weight every now and then. I believe this was one of those cases.

[here is the original post on You-Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AjbMO-REvc ]

The oscillation _was not caused entirely by a short stop on the rope_. Watch carefully, and you will see that the trunk is pushed quite a ways to the left before the top ever hits the rope. This is due to the force exerted against the trunk by the falling top as it tips over and is accelerated horizontally (to the right) in the fall.

At just the right moment (as the trunk begins to return to it's vertical position), the rope draws tight and accelerates the top back towards the trunk (to the left). This naturally amplifies the oscillation of the trunk to the right, and the climber goes for a heck of a ride. He even has the bad luck of having the top section slam into the tree during it's ocillation back to the left, and that's when the tree really takes off. 

His arms _were_ braced when the tree was pulling him to the right, he let the tree get closer to him as it swung back to the left; the acceleration back to the right yanked everything so tight that he _couldn't_ stay braced, and he became the victim of a bad cut.

This type of interaction is often referred to as "harmonic resonance". In this case, the two moving objects combine energy to increase the movement of one of them. If the rope had been caught later in the cycle, or perhaps much sooner, the guy probably would have been fine.

It might be argued that if he wasn't a rookie, he would have gone higher and prevented the problem dropping a smaller top section. Most of the times that I have seen big sections dropped out of a tree, it was by a climber with lots of confidence in their ability, so I'm guessing it was mostly just bad luck in combination with a bit of a lapse in judgement.


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## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2008)

Here is an almost identical cut, but there is no rope used, and the oscillation is not enhanced by the falling top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M6WtXZfdWE&NR=1

Notice that the trunk actually oscillates longer (but slower) than the bad one, no doubt because the hanging top section eventually dampens the rocking back and forth.


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## jomoco (Nov 16, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> It occurs to me that bracing his arms probably would not have helped. When he finished the cut he was not opposite the direction of the falling top. Hence, he was partly on the side of the oscillation, and probably would have been knocked loose no matter how strong he was.
> 
> He didn't look like a rookie to me. As the top went over, he calmly snapped his chainsaw on in preparation for the shake, and looks to me like he did brace his arms. Even the very best of us misjudges a falling weight every now and then. I believe this was one of those cases.
> 
> ...



Let's see, he didn't take a double wrap with his lanyard.

He didn't lock his arms straight and push against the trunk hard enough to move as one with the swaying trunk.

He didn't use a chainsaw lanyard to facilitate quicker safe disposal of the saw and more time to brace himself for the ride.

He didn't calculate the fall direction of the head being caught properly.

He left unnecessary stubs on the stem that could have gored him like a real bull while he was being tossed about like a rookie.

That's 5 serious mistakes that no pro in his right mind would have made Pdql.

I contend he screwed up big time!

jomoco


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## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2008)

*I'll take those one at a time, please:*

_"Let's see, he didn't take a double wrap with his lanyard."_

I really can't tell, one way or the other. I thought it rather remarkable that he didn't fly off the tree entirely, so I'm not sure that he didn't have a double wrap.


_"He didn't lock his arms straight and push against the trunk hard enough to move as one with the swaying trunk."_

Yes, he did lock his arms for the first swing. When the tree came back toward him, he bent his elbows to absorb some of the force. After that, I think he was just overpowered by the motion.


"He didn't use a chainsaw lanyard to facilitate quicker safe disposal of the saw and more time to brace himself for the ride."

It looks to me like he was completely under control until the oscillations ripped him off his perch. He was belt clipped and he was straight-armed before the tree swung to the right. In fact, he rode the first complete oscillation cycle without any problem. It wasn't untill the tree accelerated *away *from him that he had any problems. What good is straight-arming if your back is bent over backwards from the 5 g's of acceleration that your belt is putting on you?

Granted, I believe in lanyards, but imagine how bad that would have been if the chainsaw was whipping around from his belt at the end of a 4'-5' lanyard? It could very well have been worse than attaching directly to his belt, and I think he knew that. He might have been knocked unconscious by the flying saw; how would that have worked to his advantage?


_"He didn't calculate the fall direction of the head being caught properly."_

Where did that come from? It looks like the top has a slight lean to the left, but the prevailing wind is sweeping it strongly, confidently to the right. I don't see ANY mistake there.


_"He left unnecessary stubs on the stem that could have gored him like a real bull while he was being tossed about like a rookie."_

Well, I'll give you that, but maybe he left them there because he wanted it for a handle, or perhaps a stopper for his double wrap that we can't really see. There are no other stubs on the entire trunk, so I don't think he left it there out of ignorance.



_"That's 5 serious mistakes that no pro in his right mind would have made Pdql.

I contend he screwed up big time!"_

I don't see it quite that way. I think he got caught by an unfortunate resonance, and got overpowered by the result. 

Screwed up? Sure! I would not have cut off such a tall section, probably because I think I would be afraid of the yank, and because I don't ever get any trees like that. But you see, I WOULD be a rookie in that kind of tree.


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## jomoco (Nov 16, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> _"Let's see, he didn't take a double wrap with his lanyard."_
> 
> I really can't tell, one way or the other. I thought it rather remarkable that he didn't fly off the tree entirely, so I'm not sure that he didn't have a double wrap.
> 
> ...



If you think that was enough of a ride to over power a competent climber/rigger, you must be a rookie.

Like I said before, it was a mild ride that could have been easily ridden out safely by any competent pro that knows his business.

jomoco


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## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2008)

I guess we will just have to let other viewers post their opinions. 

But let's try to keep this nice, ok? Just because we see it differently does not mean that either is wrong. No need for insults, eh?


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## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2008)

*I took another closer look*

Jomoco: 

You're right, no double wrap.

You're wrong, he DID have a lanyard on the saw.

You're wrong, the stubs were clearly left there to keep the rigging above his lanyard. Might have been done otherwise, but clearly not a _mistake_. I've done it that way, and I know you have too.


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## jomoco (Nov 16, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I guess we will just have to let other viewers post their opinions.
> 
> But let's try to keep this nice, ok? Just because we see it differently does not mean that either is wrong. No need for insults, eh?



Why are you guys so sensitive?

This is a rough business in which making just one mistake can get you killed, much less 5 mistakes at once.

Learning from your mistakes is the key to a long career in this biz Pdql.

That's what good tree forums are about, or should be, in my opinion.

If I get serious at times it's because I've got firsthand experience of what happens to sloppy rookies in over their heads, and it aint pretty.

jomoco


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## D Mc (Nov 16, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Jomoco:
> 
> You're right, no double wrap.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you finally caught sight of the lanyard and lack of double wrap. I was just about to type in the same with some snide comment about old guys needing their eyes checked more often. And now I don't have to do that.  

However, Jomoco is right. The climber is like the airline pilot or the captain of a ship. He's calling the shots, because it is his life, and possibly others as well. As in all decisions, in evaluating a situation, if there is a chance that something may go wrong that procedure needs to be altered. In this case, a few feet higher and a smaller top would have taken the stress off the ground crew to the point where they may have been more successful. And even if not, the repercussions would not have been so dramatic. It is easy to second guess a scenario; hind sight is always 20/20. And analyzing a video like this is like sideline quarterbacking. It can be quite different when you are in the thick of things. 

It is good though that we can learn from these to prevent from making the same mistakes. 

But climbers should never forget the responsibilities they have in regards to their lives and others.

Dave


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