# What is wrong with this cut?



## natemason01 (Aug 4, 2012)

My ex-business partner made this cut (no, really he did) on a street oak in Oregon in early June and the result is an unsightly sap flow that has been attracting flies. We removed several other large limbs from a similar oak sitting next to it and they are drying nicely, no sap flow, but the other cuts were closer to the branch collar. This limb was the biggest one we removed and it was growing very vigorously upwards and over the woman's house at a 45 degree angle, pushing past and through what seemed to be older, more horizontal limbs.

Aside from the aesthetics, I am worried about the health of the tree. What went wrong in the first place, and what should I do to fix it? Recut closer to the branch collar? Watching the tree ooze sap and attract flies and hoping it doesn't rot doesn't seem like a good option.

Thanks for your advice.

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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 4, 2012)

I am not an arborist, but i dont see anything wrong with this cut.... Whats the problem? I do know enough about trees to know that the cut will not affect the health of the tree. kind of wasted your time worrying about it IMO.


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## jus2fat (Aug 4, 2012)

You cut way too close to the main tree base.

You should have cut at least 6" farther out..why not..??

J2F


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## Tree Pig (Aug 4, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Not to shabby.



I have to agree I do not see a lot wrong with it. Maybe the time of the year if it was just cut considering its drought conditions in most parts of the US, you dont want to get closer to the branch collar IMHO


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## Jed1124 (Aug 4, 2012)

jus2fat said:


> You cut way too close to the main tree base.
> 
> You should have cut at least 6" farther out..why not..??
> 
> J2F



That's called leaving a stub which is a bad thing. The tree will not compartmentalize the wound and will lead to rot.


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## Carburetorless (Aug 4, 2012)

It may be slightly too close, hard to tell what was there before. You can't add back on though, so it's best to cut them slightly long, then trim a bit more if necessary. 

Other than that, it may be on the sunny side of the tree, and is therefore more active.


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## derwoodii (Aug 4, 2012)

Nothing seen worng with his cut or work apart than


> on a street oak in Oregon in early June


 as down here, your not suppose to prune local government street trees unless authorized. Its no biggy, if your doing sensible tasks but your working on public lands and brings in other factors if things do go wrong.

That wound weeping should seal its self off in time


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## ch woodchuck (Aug 4, 2012)

Pic 006

there may be a problem with callusing...it appears the outer bark is separated from the cambium,that ain't good..
Also there appears to be an old stain flow down the trunk on that older(Flush) cut.Looks like the lichens in that area are dead...As are the lichens around the newer cut.Wondering if that might be bacterial wetwood.That would account for the dead lichens.And also account fro the fact the upper wound hasn't fully callused.The organism will not allow for the growth of new wood.Meaning ''if'' it is BW that area may be an issue down the road.If it smells or tastes funky,thats it.Not much of a bother to healthy trees though.

cheers...beers!


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## jus2fat (Aug 4, 2012)

OK..first off i want to acknowledge that your ex-partner made the cut and not you

The cut looks looks fairly small..so maybe will heal..if not fungus could set in.

Your partner was an idiot for cutting that close to the main stem..!!

Hopefully, it will seal itself..otherwise in time the tree will have to be dropped..
and this coming back on you as the contractor.

There was absolutely no reason to have cut that branch so close to the tree..!!

I really hope this works out well for you in the end..hopefully a good lesson learned..!!

J2F


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## treemandan (Aug 4, 2012)

natemason01 said:


> My ex-business partner made this cut (no, really he did) on a street oak in Oregon in early June and the result is an unsightly sap flow that has been attracting flies. We removed several other large limbs from a similar oak sitting next to it and they are drying nicely, no sap flow, but the other cuts were closer to the branch collar. This limb was the biggest one we removed and it was growing very vigorously upwards and over the woman's house at a 45 degree angle, pushing past and through what seemed to be older, more horizontal limbs.
> 
> Aside from the aesthetics, I am worried about the health of the tree. What went wrong in the first place, and what should I do to fix it? Recut closer to the branch collar? Watching the tree ooze sap and attract flies and hoping it doesn't rot doesn't seem like a good option.
> 
> ...



That's not sap, its vodka, and if it ain't I sure wish it was about now.


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## treemandan (Aug 4, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> Nothing seen worng with his cut or work apart than as down here, your not suppose to prune local government street trees unless authorized. Its no biggy, if your doing sensible tasks but your working on public lands and brings in other factors if things do go wrong.
> 
> That wound weeping should seal its self off in time



Every time I go into town to work I tell my customers that I am afraid I am about to be arrested for doing tree work without a permit.They give me an odd look and I splash one across the street just as the head of counsel usually does show up ( he don't do nothing but drive around sucking down Jewish oxygen), leaves his truck running in the middle of the street for hours while he tell me how drunk ,stoned, broke and indicted everybody is. I kinda would like to ask him for a job but I can't get up that early. Well its more like I won't than can't.


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## treemandan (Aug 4, 2012)

jus2fat said:


> OK..first off i want to acknowledge that your ex-partner made the cut and not you
> 
> The cut looks looks fairly small..so maybe will heal..if not fungus could set in.
> 
> ...



Yer right! And now I think we all are gonna die now because if it. No, you ain't right, I am just being an ####### but I sure wish fer death cause i can't take to much more of this.


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## jus2fat (Aug 4, 2012)

Hopefully in about a month..the end of September..the sap flow will subside.

Then the tree can start recuperating and sealing the cut made.

If it can accomplish that over the winter....You're good..!!

J2F


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## Jed1124 (Aug 4, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Yer right! And now I think we all are gonna die now because if it. No, you ain't right, I am just being an ####### but I sure wish fer death cause i can't take to much more of this.



it's ok Dan, It's ok. i feel your pain.............


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## treemandan (Aug 4, 2012)

The sap flow is good, its helping keep it wet. The best thing to do after a cut is to bore out the heartwood while leaving the cabium intact and smearing some cut paste on it BUT we all know what world we are living in so fire up that Silky and go nuts.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 5, 2012)

opcorn:


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## ch woodchuck (Aug 5, 2012)

Don't worry!It's gonna get worse..Ya'll spare a little of that popcorn....?


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## rtsims (Aug 5, 2012)

jus2fat said:


> You cut way too close to the main tree base.
> 
> You should have cut at least 6" farther out..why not..??
> 
> J2F



Why not..?? Because were not pruning a fruit tree in the hopes to make it produce more fruit.


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## swngsfrmrps (Aug 5, 2012)

Well what we get here is called oak wilt it is when a large cut is made during the spring and summer months and beetles bring the spores to a fresh cut and effects the tree that way so you might want to keep an eye on it.


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## 056 kid (Aug 10, 2012)

OH, that cut is all wrong! Wrong angle, wrong direction, wrong weather during the cut, wrong bar & chain used for the cut, and I'm sure his hat was tilted completely wrong. . . It will be a dadgum miracle of that tree lives another day!


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## Rftreeman (Aug 10, 2012)

056 kid said:


> OH, that cut is all wrong! Wrong angle, wrong direction, wrong weather during the cut, wrong bar & chain used for the cut, and I'm sure his hat was tilted completely wrong. . . It will be a dadgum miracle of that tree lives another day!


and I bet he wasn't even holding his mouth right either...


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## Treewound (Aug 21, 2012)

The cut looks OK to me, however a THIN coating of tree wound dressing should have been applied immediately after the pruning was done. Tree Wound Dressings have been PROVEN to help control the spread of harmful pathogens, such as the pathogens that spread Oak Wilt Disease and several other diseases. Tree Wound Dressings have also been proven to reduce dieback, which in turn will lead to better closure. All this being said, the benefits are greatly reduced the longer the wound is exposed.


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## ch woodchuck (Aug 21, 2012)

The initial question ''Whats wrong with this cut''May or may not have been answered.Seems there's more there than meets the eye.Look closely at pic 006.Notice the separation of bark/phloem from the cambium?No idea what happened there...Appears the separation may be all the way back to the main stem. The major flow seems to be coming from the main stem flowing down the trunk,and a smaller flow running between the separation and not from the face of the cut.Anyone else see what I see?

cheers


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2012)

Treewound said:


> The cut looks OK to me, however a THIN coating of tree wound dressing should have been applied immediately after the pruning was done. Tree Wound Dressings have been PROVEN to help control the spread of harmful pathogens, such as the pathogens that spread Oak Wilt Disease and several other diseases. Tree Wound Dressings have also been proven to reduce dieback, which in turn will lead to better closure. All this being said, the benefits are greatly reduced the longer the wound is exposed.



Please show me some supporting info on tree wound dressing proving its effectiveness, I may be misguided but as I understood it they have proven that dressing the wound is of no benefit at all and may even be harmful to the tree. 

Sponsor or not I dont think you should be using help requests to push your products.


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## Zale (Aug 21, 2012)

Treewound said:


> The cut looks OK to me, however a THIN coating of tree wound dressing should have been applied immediately after the pruning was done. Tree Wound Dressings have been PROVEN to help control the spread of harmful pathogens, such as the pathogens that spread Oak Wilt Disease and several other diseases. Tree Wound Dressings have also been proven to reduce dieback, which in turn will lead to better closure. All this being said, the benefits are greatly reduced the longer the wound is exposed.



I call BS.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 21, 2012)

Zale said:


> I call BS.



Good call:msp_thumbup:


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## ch woodchuck (Aug 21, 2012)

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/pdf/HYG_3311_09.pdf

Second paragraph..callus formation.Gotta blow it up abit.Even with cheaters I can't see it..


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## Treewound (Aug 21, 2012)

There is a tremendous amount of data demonstrating that Tree Wound Dressings are effective at controlling the spread of plant pathogens, especially Oak Wilt Disease. Probably the best known on Oak Wilt is:
"Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control" written by Kim Camill, David Appel, and Todd Watson, published in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry, 2007,33(2): 132-139
The USDA Forest Service publication "How To Identify, Prevent and Control Oak Wilt" NA-FR-01-11
"How to Prune Trees" USDA forest service publication:HOW to Prune Trees
These are just a few, I would be glad to direct you to several other studies with the same recomendations. Additionally, nearly all extension services in areas prone to Oak Wilt highly recomend the application of Tree Wound Dressings at certain times of the year, some areas even amke it mandatory.
Tree Wound dressings have also been shown to be effective at controlling the spread of other pathogens that cause tree diseases such as Dutch Elm, Silver Leaf, several "stone fruit" diseases and diseases of apple trees, as well as pitch canker in cherry trees.
Our own test is available on our web site: waltereclark.com, which demonstrates the reduction in dieback.
I would also suggest to those who base their conclusions on Shigo's well known studies (Wound dressings on red maple and American elm:effectiveness after five years and wound dressings:results of studies over 13 years, both published in the Journal of Arboriculture) why he did not report on all of the subject trees? In one study, they wounded 375 trees, but only studied 275 or 74%, in the other, they wounded 110 but only studied 75 or 60%.
If we had picked which trees to study in our test, we could have made the results look dramatically different! 
Kind of makes me wonder if they were looking to prove an preconceived notion.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2012)

Treewound said:


> There is a tremendous amount of data demonstrating that Tree Wound Dressings are effective at controlling the spread of plant pathogens, especially Oak Wilt Disease. Probably the best known on Oak Wilt is:
> "Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control" written by Kim Camill, David Appel, and Todd Watson, published in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry, 2007,33(2): 132-139
> The USDA Forest Service publication "How To Identify, Prevent and Control Oak Wilt" NA-FR-01-11
> "How to Prune Trees" USDA forest service publication:HOW to Prune Trees
> ...



here is a quote from one of the articles you mentioned 

In most other instances, wound dressings are unnecessary, and may even be detrimental. Wound dressings will not stop decay or cure infectious diseases. They may actually interfere with the protective benefits of tree gums and resins, and prevent wound surfaces from closing as quickly as they might under natural conditions.


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## no tree to big (Aug 21, 2012)

clearly what happened with that cut was, the climber was not wearing the proper ppe and the tree felt disrespected :msp_rolleyes:


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## Treewound (Aug 21, 2012)

Dear Tree Pig,
your quote is from page 12 of the How to Prune publication and your quote is accurate, HOWEVER, let's include the paragraph imediately before the paragraph that you cite and the ENTIRE paragraph that you cite!
" When oaks or elms are wounded during a critical time of the year (usually spring for oaks or throughout the growing season for elms)--either from storms, other unforeseen mechanical wounds, or from necessary branch removals -- SOME TYPE OF WOUND DRESSING SHOULD BE APPLIED TO THE WOUND. DO THIS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WOUND IS CREATED."
Followed by the portion of the paragraph that you quoted, You ALSO NEGLECTED TO INCLUDE THE LAST SENTENCE - " The only benefit of wound dressings is to prevent introduction of pathogens in the specific cases of Dutch elm disease and Oak wilt"

Clearly I disagree with the limitation of need to Dutch elm and Oak wilt. As I pointed out, there are many tree diseases that are spread in the same fashion as Oak wilt and Dutch elm, that is by airborn spread of pathogens and by insects feeding on the sap. It is therefore a fairly safe assumtion that Tree Wound Dressings would be benificial at controling the spread of these diseases as well. I can also provide you with reports with the same conclusion.


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## stihl023/5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Too close:msp_scared:


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## ch woodchuck (Aug 21, 2012)

opcorn:


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2012)

Treewound said:


> Dear Tree Pig,
> your quote is from page 12 of the How to Prune publication and your quote is accurate, HOWEVER, let's include the paragraph imediately before the paragraph that you cite and the ENTIRE paragraph that you cite!
> " When oaks or elms are wounded during a critical time of the year (usually spring for oaks or throughout the growing season for elms)--either from storms, other unforeseen mechanical wounds, or from necessary branch removals -- SOME TYPE OF WOUND DRESSING SHOULD BE APPLIED TO THE WOUND. DO THIS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WOUND IS CREATED."
> Followed by the portion of the paragraph that you quoted, You ALSO NEGLECTED TO INCLUDE THE LAST SENTENCE - " The only benefit of wound dressings is to prevent introduction of pathogens in the specific cases of Dutch elm disease and Oak wilt"
> ...



I didnt neglect it, I just left it out because your whole argument is weak on face value when they are essentially saying ITS ONLY BENEFICIAL IN A CASE OF DUTCH ELM OR OAK WILT.


I can show you several other papers written from colleges that say its doesnt work and may even cause more damage but did not want to flame you too much since you are a sponsor. I was hoping you would be able to produce some legitimate evidence that its good, but obviously you cant.

ONE ARTICLE

SHIGOS THOUGHTS ON DRESSING

MORE SHIGO

TEXAS STUDY used by ISA (does support use ONLY in the area susceptible to oak wilt... BUT say numbers supporting it are minimal)

SHIGO said it was a bunch of crap years ago and there has been NOTHING to date that says anything different... 

oh and 



Treewound said:


> Clearly I disagree with the limitation of need to Dutch elm and Oak wilt.



Of course you disagree, like every other snake oil salesman your trying to line your pockets.

also I still think its lame of you to push your stuff in the help forums but maybe its just me.


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## Treewound (Aug 22, 2012)

Your accusations about being a "snake oil salesman" are totaly unfounded. There are several manufactures of Tree Wound Dressings on the market today and You will see that allthough our companies product was used and named in several of the studies I did not mention it by name for that very reason.
You can hide your head in the sand and ignor the vast and growing evidence that Tree Wound Dressings, when used properly, are very effective at controlling the spread of many tree diseases.
You point out a couple of portions from two of Shigo's studies, but READ the entire study. Shigo's 1983 study (Wound Dressings: Results of Studies over 13 years) actually showed, by a small amount, that the wounds treated with our tree wound dressing had a LOWER occurance of decay causing fungi than untreated wounds and smaller area of dieback than untreated wounds. In his 1977 study (Wound Dressings on Red Maple and American Elm: Effectiveness after five years) it shows in Table 1 that the wounds that were treated with asphalt Tree Wound Dressing had a vertical extension of discolored and decayed wood than the untreated (control) wounds. Shigo states that "there is no significant difference" between treated and un-treated wounds. You may or may no know that the term "significant" is different in scientific terms than you or I may use in daily terms. In the ISA report (Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control) the study shows that of the tree that were treated with (here we go!) Treekote Tree Wound Dressing of the 10 trees treated with Treekote and then deliberately exposed to Oak Wilt only one became infected and there is a footnote that the wound dressing on that tree had not dried and "slipped off" during during spore incoculation. That is 90% effectiveness overall and if you take out the compromised tree that is 100% vs. 30% for untreated yet this is later described as Nota significan difference. In my humble opionion, if I had a choice of a treatment that in at least 90% of the cases and in reality 100% of the cases would prevent an illness vs. doing nothing and having a 30% chance of preventing my illness I would consider it to be a "significant" difference!
A couple of other notes about Shigo's studies that have been mentioned. Shigo was studying (in these studies) primarily decay , not disease control. He also, without explanation only repoted on 75% of the subject trees in one study and 60% of the trees in the other - Why ? Did the results of these trees not support his hypothesis? I do not know the reason,but I do find it puzzleing.
If you would be interested, I would be more than happy to send you many other reports that demonstrate the value of applying Tree Wound Dressing to help control the spread of many tree diseases and reduceing dieback.


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## Treewound (Aug 22, 2012)

If you are interested in looking at additional studies and guides that support the use of Tree Wound Dressings we have supplied a list of some of the publications in response to an inquiry in the Homeowner Helper Forum, (October Glory Maple Question).
If any interested parties would like a list or even printed copies you can email us at :[email protected]
I would also like to point out that we have never claimed that our products "promote healing" or "cure diseases", they do not. Additionally, we have in our own studies created the "pockets" eluded to in some reports that serve as "courts for infection" and do not dispute this. However, when applied correctly, in a thin coating, with care to get coverage on the edges, this will not happen. By the time the tree begins to form the callus the thin layer will simply flake off. In some cases the thin coating has weathered almost completely away, which is fine. The protection from potential contamination is not beneficial after the tree has compartmentalized the wounded or pruned area from within. This is also the case with the reduction in dieback.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2012)

Blah Blah Blah... I am not sticking my head in the sand I am asking for proof... you claim you have it so instead of talking about it SHOW IT. By the way from what I know (though minimal) Shigo's clear and only opinion on the issue was that best prevention was through proper cuts. Some evidence is out there that it MAY help inhibit Oak Wilt but general consensus (by those promoting its use, other then YOU) is still that its only a suggested treatment in areas were OAK WILT is a concern... 

Either show us otherwise or stop flapping your gums


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## Treewound (Aug 22, 2012)

Look at the prior post ! I have shown you and all others where they can find supporting documentation! I will even send you printed copies if you wish!
Tree Wound Dressings have been Proven beyond question to be effective at controlling the spread of Oak Wilt and many other diseases.
If you would like us to print and send you copies you can post your address or send it to us at :[email protected], then we can continue this discussion!


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2012)

Treewound said:


> Look at the prior post ! I have shown you and all others where they can find supporting documentation! I will even send you printed copies if you wish!
> Tree Wound Dressings have been Proven beyond question to be effective at controlling the spread of Oak Wilt and many other diseases.
> If you would like us to print and send you copies you can post your address or send it to us at :[email protected], then we can continue this discussion!



Maybe I missed something but the only thing you have shown is minimal evidence that has been out there for a few years that MAYBE it helps on Oak Wilt


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## Treewound (Aug 22, 2012)

Please take a look at some of these studies. A couple of them show 100% protection against the spread of oak wilt! 
You are correct that some recomendations limit there recomendation to certain times of the year. The point that we take is that Tree Wound Dressing do reduce dieback, do control the spread of many tree diseases, and IF USED properly, the problem that have been associated with their use will not occur.
Again, If you would like us to send you copies we would be glad to do this.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 22, 2012)

There is no shortage of credible data supporting wound paints. Just ask any arborist working in Wilt territory or the practitioner open minded enough to work with any number of biocontrol coverings for a specific purpose. 

Even Dr. Shigo -clearly- showed a lower instance of decay 7 years into this study. See table 8. WOUND DRESSINGS: RESULTS OF STUDIES OVER 13 YEARS
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=1923&Type=2

Just another tool for the informed arborist. :msp_thumbsup:


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## Treewound (Aug 22, 2012)

Thank you ! That is what I have been trying to tell those who are truly interested in the facts! It also shows less area of dieback with T____te (don't want to be accused of advertising!) vs. control (untreated.


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## formationrx (Aug 23, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Good call:msp_thumbup:



+1


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## ch woodchuck (Sep 2, 2012)

OK....:msp_laugh:Sounds like the paint issue ''may'' be resolved.Now,back to that cut.The post question is:''What's wrong with this cut''There are other issues that need to be resolved(IMO)Does it make one whit of difference wheather that cut is painted or not....Pic 006?shows the bark/phloem is separated from the cambium,possibily all the way back to the main stem





ch woodchuck said:


> Pic 006
> 
> there may be a problem with callusing...it appears the outer bark is separated from the cambium.
> Also there appears to be an old stain flow down the trunk on that older(Flush) cut.Looks like the lichens in that area are dead...As are the lichens around the newer cut.Wondering if that might be bacterial wetwood.That would account for the dead lichens.And also account fro the fact the upper wound hasn't fully callused.The organism will not allow for the growth of new wood.Meaning ''if'' it is BW that area may be an issue down the road.If it smells or tastes funky,thats it.
> cheers...beers!


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## Pelorus (Sep 2, 2012)

Applying tree wound coatings to help prevent a tree getting Dutch Elm disease? The elm leaf beetles that carry the fungus might be deterred from landing on the wounds, but so what? Enough of them start gnawing on leaves and it's ball game over, wound dressing or no wound dressing.


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 3, 2012)

Look at it from this point. 
You have a oak with storm damage in the middle of summer, you have no choice but to make cuts, you are in a heavy wilt area, it is better to put a light covering on the wound to prevent wilt. The damage that may happen, due to the dressing, is much less a risk to the tree than the wilt. The wound will be compartmentalized on this inside, the dressing just gives the tree a little buffer to do so. If the dressing does prevent closure, its still better to have a compartmentalized pocket than a wilt infection. Basically, the lesser of 2 evils. I am not a fan of any dressing, but in some situations, it may save a tree.


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## avason (Sep 3, 2012)

Sheesh...And I thought you guys were going to give the guy crap for cutting on a ladder. Just when I thought I had this place figured out. I'm a tool.:jester:


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## ch woodchuck (Sep 3, 2012)

]Sheesh...And I thought you guys were going to give the guy crap for cutting on a ladder.

:msp_rolleyes:Kept my mouth shut..

Anyways..The oak in question is in oregon state.We don't have oak wilt on this coast.And DED is not a factor on western oaks.Unless someone knows otherwise.We don't paint.....I'm still open though....


cheers


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## Tree Pig (Sep 3, 2012)

avason said:


> Sheesh...And I thought you guys were going to give the guy crap for cutting on a ladder. Just when I thought I had this place figured out. I'm a tool.:jester:



He took the picture from the ladder but the cuts were done by his "ex business partner" with no mention of technique used. But if it was evident that the cuts were made from the ladder I am sure we would not be having this conversation now.


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## Carburetorless (Sep 3, 2012)

ch woodchuck said:


> ]Sheesh...And I thought you guys were going to give the guy crap for cutting on a ladder.
> 
> :msp_rolleyes:Kept my mouth shut..
> 
> ...



Ah yeah, the heat from the California sun would make the bark separate like that. I've seen it split and separate on trees that were close the brush being burnt, and they had a lot of sap running out too.


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