# cambium saver/redirect



## Adkpk (Jun 14, 2007)

I am looking to make a 30' long redirect. Something to combine a cambium saver/redirect. Lightweight, flexible rope with steel rings spliced into the ends. 
I have a big old oak tree with a big fat crotch 30' up. I can't get my arms around the wide trunks. Rather than try throwing a throw-line up and resetting the rope. I am looking to use this shorter rope with throwing knot in it. 
Any suggestions on a splicible rope. Any criticisms on this method.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 14, 2007)

I am trying to see the logic in this. What is wrong with using a throwbag, hit a crotch above your first limb, climb up and go from there?

Can you footlock? That would be the easiest way into the tree.


A throwing knot sent to 30 ft. seems like too much work when a throw bag is easier!!!


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## jomoco (Jun 14, 2007)

*Climbing line redirect*



Adrpk said:


> I am looking to make a 30' long redirect. Something to combine a cambium saver/redirect. Lightweight, flexible rope with steel rings spliced into the ends.
> I have a big old oak tree with a big fat crotch 30' up. I can't get my arms around the wide trunks. Rather than try throwing a throw-line up and resetting the rope. I am looking to use this shorter rope with throwing knot in it.
> Any suggestions on a splicible rope. Any criticisms on this method.



I do redirects alot, however I use nylon web rigging loops in combination with two locking biners to do it. Simply place the loop over the desired crotch then place each line coming from your main tie in point in the locking biners attached to either end of the loop, this method has the advantage of keeping each line coming from the main TIP separate from each other ( less friction ) and can even be retrieved from the ground if you use a leather cambium saver at your main TIP.

The nylon web rigging loops I use are available at most rigging houses and come in lengths from 12 inches to 72+ inches, they're ratings are sewn on them on leather inserts, and I also use them for speed lining.

They're quick easy and effective, I carry atleast three on my saddle at all times.

Hope this info helps and is responsive to your question.

jomoco


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## Adkpk (Jun 14, 2007)

The crotch is 30' up and is three large trunks. Wish I had a pic and will get one tomorrow if I can. Rather than throwing the bag up into the canopy with numerous small limbs and resetting a cambium saver. I am thinking of trying to throw a shorter climbing rope to pull myself up with. Ya, as I am writing this I am this I thinking why splice rings into the ends, umm? But you guys must run into these trees that seem impossible to get a line into because of numerous little branches. What do you do? And form where I stand in the tree it would be a limited throw because of the width of the three trunks that make up this crotch.
I could do it from the ground with a dead accurate throw 60' up. But am looking for an easier way.


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## jomoco (Jun 14, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> The crotch is 30' up and is three large trunks. Wish I had a pic and will get one tomorrow if I can. Rather than throwing the bag up into the canopy with numerous small limbs and resetting a cambium saver. I am thinking of trying to throw a shorter climbing rope to pull myself up with. Ya, as I am writing this I am this I thinking why splice rings into the ends, umm? But you guys must run into these trees that seem impossible to get a line into because of numerous little branches. What do you do? And form where I stand in the tree it would be a limited throw because of the width of the three trunks that make up this crotch.
> I could do it from the ground with a dead accurate throw 60' up. But am looking for an easier way.



I'm obviously misunderstanding what you mean when you say redirect, sorry.

jomoco


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## arboralliance (Jun 15, 2007)

*No problems...*



Adrpk said:


> I am looking to make a 30' long redirect. Something to combine a cambium saver/redirect. Lightweight, flexible rope with steel rings spliced into the ends.
> I have a big old oak tree with a big fat crotch 30' up. I can't get my arms around the wide trunks. Rather than try throwing a throw-line up and resetting the rope. I am looking to use this shorter rope with throwing knot in it.
> Any suggestions on a splicible rope. Any criticisms on this method.



Best to splice a rope you are used to using...

Make sure the rings and rope are properly rated etc, etc...

No problems with the 30' redirect, besides, you need to work out what suits your situation best and that means experimenting and that is how our industry has evolved...


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## Adkpk (Jun 15, 2007)

jomoco said:


> I'm obviously misunderstanding what you mean when you say redirect, sorry.
> 
> jomoco



 Ya, you are talking about redirecting the rope, I am talking about redirecting me. 



arboralliance said:


> Best to splice a rope you are used to using...
> 
> Make sure the rings and rope are properly rated etc, etc...
> 
> No problems with the 30' redirect, besides, you need to work out what suits your situation best and that means experimenting and that is how our industry has evolved...



Yes, I like that, evolving in the industry. If I find success with this device maybe they'll name after me.  


I'll get some pics to help clarify the need. The other end of the rope would work fine, just trying to get around pulling it up and resetting it. Seems what I would have to do with a shorter piece also.


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## Adkpk (Jun 16, 2007)

The tree. 






The crotch.







I hope this shows the problem. I know these things are just a challenge to ones abilities but any replies are appreciated. If I throw the line from the primary crotch I am standing in it seems it be real hard to reach for the other end. It will come down on the other side of the crotch. Throwing from the ground to above the crotch would put my on too small of a branch to be safe.


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## jomoco (Jun 16, 2007)

*Big Shot*



Adrpk said:


> The tree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Invest a little money, buy a Big Shot, with a little practice all your problems will be below you. Always remember that you can use multiple body lines in larger trees.

Good luck,

jomoco


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## moray (Jun 16, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Rather than throwing the bag up into the canopy with numerous small limbs and resetting a cambium saver. I am thinking of trying to throw a shorter climbing rope to pull myself up with.



The tree looks pretty clean and open, so I am having some trouble understanding your complaint... If setting a high TIP at the get-go is not an option, then start lower and work your way up. You need to be versatile. Using a cambium saver isn't always very practical if you can't isolate the limb.
If you can't isolate the limb, then climb without the cambium saver--almost any limb can handle a little rope friction. Having more than one length of climbing rope is very handy. I like having a long one attached to the TIP, and a shorter one for maneuvering.



Adrpk said:


> Ya, as I am writing this I am this I thinking why splice rings into the ends, umm?


????



Adrpk said:


> I could do it from the ground with a dead accurate throw 60' up. But am looking for an easier way.



This is where versatility (and a little experience) pays. I almost never run into a tree where I can set the high TIP I want from the ground. Go for something lower, and then free climb from there. I try to avoid using the throw line in the tree, because I find it difficult and tiring, but sometimes that is the only option. I made a pair of etriers out of junk rope. Each has a spliced eye that lets me choke it to a bare spar. On two or three occasions I have used them to rather easily climb a limbless section till I could reach some more limbs.

I take it your nice tree is going to be your practice tree? Why not climb up to a nice high TIP, even if it takes several tries and a lot of work. Once there, install a false crotch. Now leave it there for weeks or months if you like. Any time you want to go practice or try out a new idea, pull your rope into place and climb away. I think I have had as many as 5 FC's installed in different trees all at the same time. There are 3 installed in my back yard as I write, two of which give me access to the two anchor trees of a long highline I am experimenting with. These semi-permanent installations mean much less time "wasted" installing my line, and a lot more time to spend on experimenting and practicing...


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## arboralliance (Jun 16, 2007)

moray said:


> The tree looks pretty clean and open, so I am having some trouble understanding your complaint... If setting a high TIP at the get-go is not an option, then start lower and work your way up. You need to be versatile. Using a cambium saver isn't always very practical if you can't isolate the limb.
> If you can't isolate the limb, then climb without the cambium saver--almost any limb can handle a little rope friction. Having more than one length of climbing rope is very handy. I like having a long one attached to the TIP, and a shorter one for maneuvering.
> 
> 
> ...



ADVISING SOMEONE TO: NOT USE A CAMBIUM SAVER, FREE CLIMB, LEAVE ROPES/TIP's IN TREES?:monkey: 

Is this a serious post?:help:


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## Adkpk (Jun 16, 2007)

arboralliance said:


> ADVISING SOMEONE TO: NOT USE A CAMBIUM SAVER, FREE CLIMB, LEAVE ROPES/TIP's IN TREES?:monkey:
> 
> Is this a serious post?:help:



Yes.


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## arboralliance (Jun 16, 2007)

*Um...*



Adrpk said:


> Yes.



Please don't get my post mixed up with questioning the "thread" Adrpk, it's a great thread I am just dubious of someone posting advising you to free climb, climb without the use of cambium saver and to leave ropes or TIP's in trees for extended periods of time... 

This advise needs to be clarified... 

Great "thread" though!


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## Adkpk (Jun 16, 2007)

Moray, the short rope for maneuvering is what we are talking about in this thread. What kind of rope do you use for this? How do the ends of this rope terminate?


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 16, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Moray, the short rope for maneuvering is what we are talking about in this thread. What kind of rope do you use for this? How do the ends of this rope terminate?





Start low and rope throw/hip thrust your way up...........time consuming but it will work!!!


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## Adkpk (Jun 16, 2007)

arboralliance said:


> Please don't get my post mixed up with questioning the "thread" Adrpk, it's a great thread I am just dubious of someone posting advising you to free climb, climb without the use of cambium saver and to leave ropes or TIP's in trees for extended periods of time...
> 
> This advise needs to be clarified...
> 
> Great "thread" though!



Moray has his own way of reaching the death defying heights we all try to achieve but what I like about Moray is he post about it. He is not following he is leading. I will do the deciphering of which of his methods are safe for me. He's still alive is'nt he? 
I am glad you like the thread. So stop clapping and get with this shorter piece of rope thing. 
How do you get around an obstacle, safely?


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## arboralliance (Jun 16, 2007)

*Nice...*



Adrpk said:


> Moray has his own way of reaching the death defying heights we all try to achieve but what I like about Moray is he post about it. He is not following he is leading. I will do the deciphering of which of his methods are safe for me. He's still alive is'nt he?
> I am glad you like the thread. So stop clapping and get with this shorter piece of rope thing.
> How do you get around an obstacle, safely?



Ok, didnt realise your intimate relationship with moray my apologies...

I posted the 6th post on the first page short and sweet AND have another thread running on similar issues you might like to read...


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## moray (Jun 17, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Moray has his own way of reaching the death defying heights we all try to achieve but what I like about Moray is he post about it. He is not following he is leading. I will do the deciphering of which of his methods are safe for me. He's still alive is'nt he?
> I am glad you like the thread. So stop clapping and get with this shorter piece of rope thing.
> How do you get around an obstacle, safely?



You are too kind!

My short rope is nothing special, just a 40 foot length of arbormaster with a spliced eye on one end and a small pull loop on the other (I described this in another thread...). 

You are definitely on to a major problem of climbing trees--how to get your rope situated in a good limb above you. The best solution is to have a trained squirrel that will run your throw line up over an excellent limb up high... Without the squirrel, its a lot harder, but the more tricks you have the easier it is going to be. I have found as I became a better climber I could dispense with some of the fancier tricks, so your bag of tricks will evolve as you gain experience.

Just briefly, if I am in the tree and need to advance the rope no more than 10 feet, I'll put a throwing knot in the climb line and try to throw it over. Sometimes I'll use the modified handle of my snow rake (very light) to maneuver the rope or thow line over a higher limb (can reach about 15 feet). Sometimes I'll use my pair of etriers, essentially a replacement for spurs, to climb up to the next limb. Last resort is to use the thow line in the tree, but I have had to do that a few times. I use a short 40 foot line for this.

But good climbing skills will replace a lot of this or at least make it easier. This is why I suggested you get a high line set in your tree by hook or by crook so you can get on with the climbing.


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## moray (Jun 17, 2007)

arboralliance said:


> Please don't get my post mixed up with questioning the "thread" Adrpk, it's a great thread I am just dubious of someone posting advising you to free climb, climb without the use of cambium saver and to leave ropes or TIP's in trees for extended periods of time...
> 
> This advise needs to be clarified...
> 
> Great "thread" though!



arboralliance, I'm happy to clarify...

First, when I say "free climb," I don't mean without protection, I simply mean without a rope tied in above you.

Using a cambium saver is not always practical. I use them whenever I can for the sake of both the rope and the tree. Lots of trees here in the Northeast have good thick bark that can stand quite a lot of abuse from a rope. I often will climb to the top of a tree, most of it by free climbing, then install a cambium saver and use it to rappel down...

Leaving a CS in the tree for extended periods. I assume you are concerned about damage from UV light. There will be damage--the question is how much. Here are some of the factors I considered:
1. The manufacturer of the polyester rope I use certifies it for extended periods of outside use if it is inspected regularly.
2. After many months outside, I have never been able to detect the slightest damage, such as powdery surface, broken strands, what-have-you.
3. At my latitude, 45 degrees North, UV light drops to near zero during the winter, and even in the summer is relatively weak (compared to Down Under).
4. I have some small diameter (5 or 6 mm) crappy polypropylene tie-down rope in the back of my open pickup. This is my canary in the coal mine. It is MUCH more susceptible to UV damage than polyester. After 5 years of non-stop exposure, it shows clear signs of damage, but it is still functioning just fine. I wouldn't start worrying about my big fat CS rope until this crappy little tie-down rope is a pile of dust.
5. Mountain climbers have left nylon climbing ropes permanently installed in high places for years, including Everest, and they (reluctantly) still use them.

Conclusion: UV damage to a good polyester rope is extremely slow. Use a small-diameter cheapo polypropylene rope for an exposure meter. When it starts to look really ratty you might want to take a look at that CS that has been up in the tree for a few months...


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## Grace Tree (Jun 17, 2007)

I know that this has been discussed many times and the idea of rope or CS damage by animals has been dismissed by most I still don't feel comfortable leaving gear in the tree, even overnight. I'd rather leave a throw line up and reinstall each day than take a chance on the Geico squirrels laughing at me.
Phil


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## beowulf343 (Jun 17, 2007)

What happened to using a polesaw to redirect? Two eight foot sections plus my arm length will usually let me get 20 feet away.

Redirecting over my head, i'll usually use a modified monkey's fist. Pretty good at sidearming it and after it drops over the crotch, the rope end uncoils and drops back down to me.


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## arboralliance (Jun 17, 2007)

*What...*



moray said:


> arboralliance, I'm happy to clarify...
> 
> First, when I say "free climb," I don't mean without protection, I simply mean without a rope tied in above you.
> 
> ...



You obviously missed a thread I posted in last year on this very subject... 

You're now making claims that I know you can't substantiate about equipment that is not available to the average joe tree climber, please reference your claims about Mt Everest and the equipment used there and it's relationship to the equipment used in our industry, while you're at it reference the claims of the manufacturer of your rope, how do you inspect something regularly BEFORE CLIMBING ON IT if it's at the top of the tree, but its been nice reading your efforts in clarifying your previous statements even if it's been with claims about the relationship between poly pro' and kernmantle, completely different ropes in different situations with completely different uses, one ties down ya beer kegs the other holds your body away from the potentially rapidly advancing ground, lets hope no-one takes you as seriously as I am and decides your written advise is actually that and hurts themselves...

"First, when I say "free climb," I don't mean without protection, I simply mean without a rope tied in above you"

Without a rope tied in above you, brilliant, is that it? Care to elaborate on that?

You seriously think your gonna find broken strands from uv damage, and what about all the other factors effecting a rope left in a tree, I doubt they would reveal broken strands as a sign of fatigue either...

At what point do you decide to set a cambium saver in a a crotch/fork that is potentially being regularly climbed in/on? When signs of damage appear? Surely then its too late, so when?


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## Adkpk (Jun 17, 2007)

*many good points*

Squirrels, good point, small wood. I run into one everytime I climb this tree. 

The tree pole is what it is going to be the next time in the tree. 

I am thinking that the way to go with what I am looking for is to pick a rope, 40' seems about right and not do anything to the ends. Just re-tie myself back in and pull myself up as normal. 

Now, can anyone recomend a smaller or lighter piece of rope. Something that would hang nicely on my belt without being to bulky or heavy. 

Good points on the cambium saver, Arbor.


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## moray (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't know what I said to set you off??? Calmly, I'll try again to answer your points one at a time.



arboralliance said:


> You obviously missed a thread I posted in last year on this very subject...



Probably. Can you point me to it?



arboralliance said:


> You're now making claims that I know you can't substantiate about equipment that is not available to the average joe tree climber, please reference your claims about Mt Everest ...



You know? For all you know I've actually climbed Mt. Everest. A friend of mine did... I've watched dozens of doumentaries and read plenty of books about expedition climbing. People leave fixed ropes in place until the elements take them down. Subsequent expeditions use them. The only point I'm making, which I thought was clear enough, is that EVEN nylon climbing rope, substantially thinner than our 1/2 inch climbing lines, exposed to very high UV levels, in brutal weather, for years, still retains enough integrity that people still use them. Since nylon degrades much faster from UV than polyester, it seems like a relevant example to me. I am not suggesting anyone climb on such a rope, I am just trying to set the stage for some understanding of how fast our polyester ropes degrade from UV.



arboralliance said:


> how do you inspect something regularly BEFORE CLIMBING ON IT if it's at the top of the tree



Obviously I don't. I do inspect it when I climb up there. Experience shows me that months go by with no visible change to the rope. I do look up to make sure everything is in place, but don't see any reason for a close inspection except at long intervals. You apparently think this is very risky. Why? Do you have some reason to believe UV degradation takes place much faster than I think? Incidentally, the rope from which I make my cambium savers is Samson Tree Master 3-strand. Samson says it is very resistant to UV, suitable for long-term outside exposure if inspected regularly.



arboralliance said:


> how do you inspect something regularly You seriously think your gonna find broken strands from uv damage, and what about all the other factors effecting a rope left in a tree, I doubt they would reveal broken strands as a sign of fatigue either...



You seem to be saying inspection of the rope will tell me nothing. Do YOU inspect anything? What are YOU looking for? And what are the other factors you are worrying about?



arboralliance said:


> Without a rope tied in above you, brilliant, is that it? Care to elaborate on that??



You seem to be making a non-stop effort to insult me. I have two safety lanyards. I climb from one limb to the next, staying attached to the tree at all times. One end of my climbing line is attached to my saddle as I drag it up the tree after me... Doesn't everyone do this?



arboralliance said:


> At what point do you decide to set a cambium saver in a a crotch/fork that is potentially being regularly climbed in/on? When signs of damage appear? Surely then its too late, so when?



Why would I wait for signs of damage? Especially since the trees I climb the most are my own trees? I install the CS the first time I reach a suitable crotch, and then I leave it there if I plan to climb that tree anytime soon. One of the principal reasons there is no rope damage in any of my trees is that they rarely ever experience a moving rope with my weight on it...


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## arboralliance (Jun 17, 2007)

*Well...*

Moray, I am seeking clarity not insults, I am confused by your bold yet limiting statements about technique and equipment so I have simply asked for some expansion for clarities sake, forgive me if I am a little cynical in my wording, I certainly am enjoying the diffusion of information and don’t mean or intend to insult… 

I wasn't aware we were actually talking about you or your situation Moray, I thought we were being asked to answer a question by another member who does ascend over a large limb/s that could be damaged by continued rubbing from ropes if cambium savers are not used…

Moray, when you and/or your friend climbed Mt Everest exactly what were the specs of the rope used and how much similar exposure to tree like elements did this rope endure and how does this rope relate directly to the Arb’ specific rope we use in our industry?

The point I would like to make is that kernmantle static abseil/climbing rope (and its additives and impregnations of element resisting chemicals and waterproofing etc, etc) is not the same as kernamntle semi - static Arb’ rope in many, many ways…

Moray, I assess a ropes fatigue by its known history and usage relating to yes, exposure to sun, historical loading and external or internal damage off set against the manufacturers recommendations of life expectancy, I don’t wait for a bit of baling twine in the back of the ute to fluff up then decide to think about my climbing rope…

Really Moray who is insulting who here…

I am away for a few days, will try to stay linked up, see how I go.:biggrinbounce2: 

All the best,

Jarrah


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## Bermie (Jun 17, 2007)

BACK to the original subject...

Ardprk, do you use a lanyard as well as your main climbing line? Forgive me if you do, it just isn't clear. Alternating main line and lanyard gets me up and past most stuff till I reach a nice TIP.

I have made my lanyard 20' long, I find it is enough to use as a 'mini' climbing line when the distance between branches is more than a few feet. It is set on my side D's double snap lock on one end, the other with a distel, pulley and crab.
A bag full of slings works wonders when you need footholds on a bare section on a prune.


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## moray (Jun 17, 2007)

arboralliance said:


> Moray, I am seeking clarity not insults...
> 
> I wasn't aware we were actually talking about you or your situation Moray, I thought we were being asked to answer a question by another member who does ascend over a large limb/s that could be damaged by continued rubbing from ropes if cambium savers are not used…
> 
> Moray, I assess a ropes fatigue by its known history and usage relating to yes, exposure to sun, historical loading and external or internal damage off set against the manufacturers recommendations of life expectancy, I don’t wait for a bit of baling twine in the back of the ute to fluff up then decide to think about my climbing rope…



Good. There is no reason we can't be civil.

I was indeed trying to make a constructive suggestion for Adrpk, and I stand by it. The "continued rubbing" you mention is precisely what my suggestion is intended to address. Leave the CS in the tree and all the rubbing stops. Good for the tree, the climber, and the rope.

As for life expectancy of a CS made of polyester, historical loading and internal damage, absent a fall, should be insignificant, since it never rubs against anything and it is loaded in a basket configuration which doubles its strength. The UV exposure is the only degrading force that even mildly concerns me. Here's a point I didn't make before. There is no UV at night, and very little in early morning and late afternoon. When my CS stays out for 24 hours, it receives, as a first approximation, about the same UV exposure as yours does during a working day, even though you take yours home. Factor in the fact that your latitude is much lower, and a working day for you is certainly harder on your CS than a full 24 hours is on mine.

You continue to mock my little story of the baling twine, but why? Even though I don't actually consult it to decide how to care for my CS, I find it reassuring, even if you don't, to know that a crappy little loose-weave polypropylene rope that I know is degrading far faster than my big fat hard lay CS ever could, is still doing pretty well after five uninterrupted years of unshaded exposure to the sun.

So I continue to recommend to Adrpk that he put up his CS and leave it up for all the benefits that confers. If after all this you still think this is a dangerous practice, you might put aside the mockery long enough to tell us why.


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## Adkpk (Jun 18, 2007)

*Bermese method*

I used the Bermese method to reach my goal today. Used my 12' lanyard to go around the tree until I was in the crotch. In a nutshell, over-coming my fears. Smart man. Thanks Bermie. And thank all of you who posted. I am thinking as of now to order some more treemaster rope. I need a new throw weight, they don't last very long, heh? 













As far as the spliff that went on in here I'll say we all learn. Luckily no one got hurt. But as far as the leaving the cambium saver in the tree I think Small Wood cured me of doing that anymore. Wouldn't want my dying moment to be looking up seeing that rocket J was comfy laying in my cambium saver while I look up flat on my back. 

Reason for edit: is that I forgot to add that the pic of my foot is in the infamous crotch. The black stripe is form the cambium saver I left in the tree over the weekend. I used a canvas strap with a water knot in it and two quick links for the time being but now I am reunited with my cambium saver after I left at the climbing gtg.


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## moray (Jun 18, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> But as far as the leaving the cambium saver in the tree I think Small Wood cured me of doing that anymore.



You're funny, Adrpk. But shame on you for letting the Fearmongers get to you!


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## beowulf343 (Jun 18, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> I used the Bermese method to reach my goal today. Used my 12' lanyard to go around the tree until I was in the crotch. In a nutshell, over-coming my fears. Smart man. Thanks Bermie.



Ah dude, i hate to tell you this, but bermie is a girl!!:jawdrop:


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## Adkpk (Jun 18, 2007)

moray said:


> You're funny, Adrpk. But shame on you for letting the Fearmongers get to you!



What? No fear of the squirrel! Seriously, moray, you don't think a tree creature could nibble on those strands hanging in the tree? 



beowulf343 said:


> Ah dude, i hate to tell you this, but bermie is a girl!!:jawdrop:



Ah, hate to tell you, but I was talking about me. I am a smart man. Sorry about the deceptive wording.


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## moray (Jun 19, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> What? No fear of the squirrel! Seriously, moray, you don't think a tree creature could nibble on those strands hanging in the tree?



Hmmm... I think I am going to armor-plate all my ropes tomorrow because a meteor might come down any minute now and sever one! Hmm... This would also stop all those nightmares about the polyester-eating squirrels that have been giving me so many sleepless nights!


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## Adkpk (Jun 19, 2007)

Lighten up my friend you sound like your in a frazzle. I beat the fearmongers by getting in the tree in the first place. I am not trying to win a stupid contest here.


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## moray (Jun 19, 2007)

No worries, mate. Arbor got me a little steamed because of his shoot first ask questions later attitude. You have always been a gentleman, and I continue to enjoy following your progress! And I know you are capable of winnowing the wheat from the chaff and making your own decisions. Onward!


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## beowulf343 (Jun 19, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Ah, hate to tell you, but I was talking about me. I am a smart man. Sorry about the deceptive wording.




Ah, sorry, not used to guys patting themselves on the back while blowing their own horn


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