# one-handing



## clearance (Feb 18, 2005)

Could some who is an experienced climber please explain what is wrong with using a top handed saw (020) with one hand and holding branches or pushing of tops whith the other hand? I know the "proper" way but honestly how many of you never ever one hand a saw? And not just "because its against the rules" arguement. thank you


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 18, 2005)

Sure it's done, but it's not a good habit to get into. Besides being more dangerous, it will wear you out prematurely. I've stopped doing it as much, but I still do it. But I'm trying to stop...

That's a no-no!

:Eye:


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## topnotchtree (Feb 18, 2005)

I am with MB, I try hard not to do it, but old habits are hard to break.


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## tnttreeman (Feb 18, 2005)

I had a 1979 Asplundh dump with their original stickers that had an explanation of making a cut and it actually said that after the bar was into the wood that they were to use one hand!
I do it, too, when using the top handle saw. Hard habit to break.


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## Ny finest (Feb 18, 2005)

Hey I'm new here(first post)but I thought top handled saws were designed for one handed operation and that was why the whole compact design worked.If you didn't one-hand the saw what is the advantage of it other than being smaller?I almost constantly use my 200t one handed especially when trimming:two hands would restrict movement and agility.I know its not as safe but I really don't see experts getting hurt since they know how saws react to certain enviroments.I climbed and trimmed about 40 streetside trees today for the city contract I'm working on and I barely realize I'm doing it the saws so light and balanced. In street work like that where you have to grab the limbs you're cutting(cars underneath ya know)and your boss is always trying to "make the numbers"I would never get any thing done if I religiously two-handed my saw.But as I and every body else preaches it only takes one mistake to ruin your day (or life)so I can't reccommed anyone doing it but thats kind of a disclaimer ya know?


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## Ax-man (Feb 18, 2005)

As long as there are top handled saws to buy the practice of one handing a saw is not going to go away. I sit on the fence on this issue, this is the main reason I switched to a rear handle for climbing so I don't one hand a saw while climbing. Working out of a bucket I do a lot of one hand cut and pitch of small limbs, you have a lot more stable and positioning options than you do while climbing, and you can choose your cuts better than you can while climbing.

You can't have control 100% of the time when you one hand a saw , sooner or later you will misjudge the situation, the work piece might be heavier than you think, tangled up bad with a neighboring limb, will put more leverage on a cut than what you might be ready for, this list could go on and on. What appeals to you the most if things don't go quite right and that saw is going nine ninety and your holding on to that piece of wood. How about a cut wrist with some tendons cut, or a chewed up forearm or leg, or better yet, cut your life support system and fall out of a tree. These are the risks you take one handing a saw, QUESTION, Is it worth it yes or no.

Not one handing a saw will improve your saw cutting skills. Makes you better at Z type or snap cuts so you can use two hands to break the piece off and manipulate it easier, notch and hinge, under and over cutting for free falling limbs. It doesn't take that much extra to carry a small short rope on your saddle and use like a choker, beats one handed saw cuts. With the improvement in the handsaws we have today, one handing a chain saw shouldn't have to be done so much.

Like Mb said, it will catch up to as you get older, I think MB has shoulder problems, mine is more in the lower back, weight being transfered from arm to lower back from hanging on to heavy limbs one handing a saw while working out of a bucket, all because I thought I was being faster than not setting and using a rope. Nope not  

Larry


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## ORclimber (Feb 18, 2005)

How about...

1. If you get hurt doing it, you could get fired because it's against the rules.
2. If you get hurt doing it, your employer will pay more $ out in workers comp than you saved in time one handing, and then he'll fire you.

Those are the best ones I can think of. Still to young to feel the effects axeman and MB bring up.


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## alanarbor (Feb 18, 2005)

The #1 reason not to one hand a saw in my book. The chain brake will not activate! 
The other reason for a top handle saw..... It keeps your hands closer together, allowing you to position the saw in ways you couldn't with a rear handle saw, also, because your hands are closer together it cuts down on fatigue due to more effecient load distribution. I used to know some guys with rear handle climbing saws, their "smart hand" forearms were HUGE! That rear handle to them was just a way to stretch out and get a better reach with the saw.


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## clearance (Feb 18, 2005)

Ny finest, great answer, my thoughts exactly. Ax-man, thanks for the concern. I would like to address your points in order. In regards to being stable in the tree, I feel real secure and stable with my viberg triple sole boots, spurs and my steel core scare strap. You can never have total control of any saw even with two hands. I always put myself out of harms way in case of a kickback. When you one hand you have to know where the other hand,like on the branch or above your head pushing the top. I know a guy who cut his fingers one handing because he wasnt thinking, have to be thinking all the time. I appreciate what you are saying about snap cutting branches (cut, cut and then snap it with two hands), but if you are pushing overhanging branches away from a powerline you have to be sure. As far as being faster, no contest. If you are going to one hand you have be alert. Why I posed this question is because when I took the utily arborist course one handing resulted in an automatic fail from the course. The instructor made it out to be a deadly sin but he couldnt even climb of of bed. Everyone I have ever worked with one hands, I just want to hear a good reaon why its so bad. Thanks


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## dbeck (Feb 18, 2005)

sounds like a lot of us are making the far to common argument of faster and easier to one hand. why do most mistakes and accidents occur?
sounds like the instructor had his brain in gear. I haven't one-handed in 4+ yrs. honestly. i owe credit to s. gere for that. he is a one of the most talented climbers i know and he told me once he had not onehanded in 6+ yrs. that was 4+ yrs ago. if he can do it, ican do it was my philosophy.
two handing will make you a better climber, i'm convinced of that. when you start two handing, lose the pole saw while climbing and you will become even better at climbing. when that happens, you'll begin to realize that you are having way more fun. also, you'll be doing better work in the tree. better cuts rather than dog ears...that's why you are doing this anyway right?


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## Ax-man (Feb 18, 2005)

Why would you decrease your chances of having saw control by 50% by using one hand?? What about the limb you are one handing, wouldn't you have better control using two hands instead of one, guiding it where it is suppose to go. 

Your freind got his fingers cut, wasn't thinking, have to be alert. I'd be willing to bet this guy said the same thing once. 

Pushing limbs away from powerlines with one hand and one hand cutting with a chain saw, I did read this right I hope, wearing your spurs for stability, attached to the tree with a wirecore lanyard , scare strap.

I always thought the name of the game in tree work was safety, has that changed or did I miss something along the line??????????????????????????????

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 18, 2005)

I'm not doing this.

:angel:


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## fpyontek (Feb 18, 2005)

clearance said:


> I just want to hear a good reason why its so bad. Thanks



The reason is you have to protect people from themselves. It's the same reason the cup holding your morning hot coffee has the warning label "caution hot". 
Through carelessness, ineptitude, distraction or a freak combination of unforeseeable events, people get hurt. You can not protect them if they don't follow guidelines long enough to become proficient and make an informed decision; but manufacturers can protect themselves.


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## xander9727 (Feb 18, 2005)

Search for the thread "Stupid chainsaw tricks". If you still have questions PM me.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 18, 2005)

This is one of the bi-annual questions that pops up on arbo forums. Same reasons given for one and two handed use. So far, I haven't read any good reason for onesies. I've been pretty active on arbo forums for 7+ years so I've heard all of the reasons.

At the company I used to work for a climber cut his rope and fell. He was one handing.

If you ever want to justify an action, ask_______________________[fill in the blank with Wife, children, parents, sweetheart, family, the owner of the company, OSHA] and if anyone of them says NO, don't do it. Who do you owe your life to? Yourself? That's selfish. It's our obligation to take care of ourselves so that we're around for our friends and family.


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## Koa Man (Feb 18, 2005)

I don't think one handing a saw is an absolute no-no. There are times when you are in an awkward position and need the other hand to hang on to either a branch or your rope, like in MB's picture. I will use two hands on the saw whenever I can, but will not hesitate to one hand my 020T. As far as cutting with one hand and holding the cut branch to toss with the other, I rarely do that. I will put a loop on the branch, grab that with my left hand and hold the loop and the top handle of the saw. After the cut, I will let go of the saw with my left hand while still holding the loop. I really don't trust myself to hold a branch, unless it is real small. Sure it is slower than cutting and tossing, but much safer.


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## clearance (Feb 18, 2005)

Havent really heard anything new except for the one about the guy who cut his rope. Up here the rule is that you cant use a chainsaw unless you are secured with a resistant strap (steelcore) or 2 lines that can be cut i.e. ropes. ORclimber- how about you get laid off cause your too slow?alalarbor the brake on a 020, ms22works on inertia too Dbeck- it is easier and faster. I dont use a polesaw, sometimes I use an insulated pole pruner. I make proper cuts on trees I sidelimb, it took a little practice and if its a removal who cares. Ax-man how do you cut the branch and be sure that it wont "pop" before you can get your hands on it? And yes you read it right spurs, steelcore, one hand just like every other C.U.A. in the province. Xander-kind of insulting to group that under stupid tricks, guess you dont climb big conifers with hundreds of branches. I figure that if you spent all day roping off branches that you could have just thrown down you wouldnt be very productive.


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## okietreedude1 (Feb 18, 2005)

Clear, first of all, might like to watch yourself. you seem to be getting a little on the bragging side of things here. Guys like that arent really liked much (from what ive seen) here.

Anyway, I too use a saw one handed, probably more so than I should. However, I do use it as it was made and that is for 2 hands. I know when Im beyond my one handed ability and if I dont need one for the saw and one for the limb and its not out of reach, Ive got both paws on the saw. If, in the case of line clearance, you have to back cut or under cut something to pull it back to you, isnt that what you have a hand saw for? If its dull, get a new blade. If you dont have a handsaw, get one. they're cheaper than a trip to the Emergency room. I have even used one in a bucket truck before! 

I realize because I am in the residential sector of the job, time is money. But how much money are you making vs. spending if your off the job due to injury or if you one handed carelessness causes property damage?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 18, 2005)

Heres a good shot of two hand control in an akward position...

http://www.*********************/treepics/26.JPG


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## NeTree (Feb 18, 2005)

I'm with OR. One should NEVER one-hand a saw.



<=========


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 18, 2005)

NeTree said:


> One should NEVER one-hand a saw.



Hahahaha!!!


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## clearance (Feb 19, 2005)

Okietree- M. Ali said 'it aint bragging if its true" Seriously, sorry if I was a little uppity. Im not the worlds best climber, I know lots of guys who are better than me. Most of my experience is strip&chunk removal or side limbing trees ground to sky around powerlines. When you do line clearance you never pull anything towards yourself, always push it away. If something does go wrong, like a top or branch heading towards the line, cut it off!


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## xander9727 (Feb 19, 2005)

clearance said:


> Xander-kind of insulting to group that under stupid tricks, guess you dont climb big conifers with hundreds of branches.



I stand by the idea that cutting yourself with a chainsaw is stupid.

Additionally, you have no idea what I climb. If it needs a rope, it needs a rope. If it's small enough to toss a couple of swipes with a zubat will put it in my hand.


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## clearance (Feb 19, 2005)

Xander you are right that I have no idea what you climb, and I dont know what a zubat is, sounds like some kind of magical handsaw. Years ago I cut myself real bad with a 266 when I was spacing (thinning) out in the bush. It wasnt a stupid accident because I learned something. I learned respect for chainsaws after seeing my own blood and meat but it is respect not fear. Out here most people only rope branches they cant hold guess I have to get a zubat.


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## Stumper (Feb 19, 2005)

For me cut and toss is handsaw work-unless I'm blocking down a spar. In that case I can cut,stop, grab, toss without wrapping my arm up and over a running saw-2 hands on the saw. I do one hand a chainsaw upon occasion. I believe in 2 hand saw use. I like the redheaded step-child of climbing saws -the 019T/191T specifically because the swept handle configuration allows the greatest 2-hand reach in awkward situations. However,there is a time for one hand use in my opinion. I feel no shame in reaching across the tree to onehand off a branch that I would have difficulty reachingwith both hands. Some say reposition but I say "Faugh!. If I can reach it from here and cut one handed in a position where my body isn't exposed to the saw then I'm cutting from here, thanks."


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## spacemule (Feb 19, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Sure it's done, but it's not a good habit to get into. Besides being more dangerous, it will wear you out prematurely. I've stopped doing it as much, but I still do it. But I'm trying to stop...
> 
> That's a no-no!
> 
> :Eye:


Are you going to do it until you're blind?


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## Ax-man (Feb 19, 2005)

Clearance,

You asked how can you cut a limb to be sure it won't "pop" answer practice by not one handing a chain saw. 

Larry


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## Ekka (Feb 19, 2005)

Hey MB

Nice pics.

I noticed that when you used 2 hands you were cutting above shoulder/neck height anyway!!  

And was the cig a "roll your own" or a tailor made?  

And when you were hanging out one handed cutting that pine limb there was only 1 attachment point too!  

Hmm, and how long have you been self employed? Because an employer would be obligated to bust you.  

And that my friend is exactly why I'm self employed ... I have to remind the guys daily, do as I say not as I do because you work for me and I not for you.

We also cut a lot of palms here, imagine not doing the head and all those fronds one handed? Your always holding the frond and cutting it off, and a lot of the times cutting above shoulder height. So, in the real world, yes one handed use is prevalent and productive, and yes it is bad but if your self employed who gives a ????! 

Maybe some of the primma boys wouldn't make these rules if they had to abide by them.


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## jamie (Feb 19, 2005)

*bad bad bad*

its bad and we shouldn't do it, chances are we do though.

if its one handed (cut and catch) i will catch, knock the chainbrake on using the stub, tree etc drop the saw onto the strop and then deal with the limb. if its too heavy i will find another way.

i tend to one hand like in MB pics

jamie


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## alanarbor (Feb 19, 2005)

clearance said:


> alalarbor the brake on a 020, ms22works on inertia too



That is true, but me personally, I'd want to be sure. I have seen chain brakes not operate from inertia, but the handle is 100% effective. I have one other question, You're in line clearance, and using a wire core lanyard?


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## greg carr (Feb 19, 2005)

I used to one hand until the day I realized I couldnt even lift the saw with one hand because my elbow and shoulder are so bad.18 years I thought I had a perfect no injury record, turns out I was hurting myself every day.


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 19, 2005)

I try not to do it, but Im not saying that I dont do it. Sometimes thats the only way to reach out an nip off that piece way out there. When I do do it I always make sure Im tied in at a second location, ie WPL or Double crotched.

Kenn


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## clearance (Feb 19, 2005)

alanarbor, yes I use a scare strap with a steel core for line clearance. I think I know why you ask steel=conductive. Here we are governed by strict limits of approach-that is how close you can be to the line. There are 2 tables for a C.U.A.. Table B is for the climbers body and anything else conductive like a chainsaw, scare strap, rope etc. Table A is for dielectrically tested tools (Jamison pole pruner). Table B also includes any inadvertant movement. Example, on a 25kv line table B is 4ft. Table A is 1.5ft. So you make sure the tail of your strap never violates that 4ft. My strap has a rope snap that clips on one d-ring and a mechanical slck adjuster that clips on the other d-ring.


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## okietreedude1 (Feb 19, 2005)

clearance said:


> When you do line clearance you never pull anything towards yourself, always push it away. If something does go wrong, like a top or branch heading towards the line, cut it off!




Sorry man, I TOTALLY disagree with that one. It there is a limb over the line, you mean to tell me your just going to cut it off and let it go???? NOT me. Ill under cut it pulling it back so I can get my hands on it safely and throw it to the ground butt first like im spearing something.

Maybe that truely is the wrong way to do it, but thats what I was taught and thats what all my coworkers do.

Same would apply for trimming something over a roof, pretty flower bed, fiberglass patio cover, car,....

Times things are a little to long, in comes a webbing loop w/ a biner to get a hold of farther out. And the hand saw comes into play as well.

Any other guys here w/ line experince want to help out?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2005)

I pull stuff to me all the time, lines or no lines.


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## geofore (Feb 19, 2005)

No one's going to tell you the two hands on the saw rule is so you'll put down the D#*% cell phone while you're working. The rule needs to be there. First time saw users and home owners are the ones likely to be injured. Until you get used to a saw you need both hands on it to get the feel for what the saw can/will do. Then there is safety. The inertia brake is a wonderful thing, saved me a scar or two. Compare it to the both hands on the wheel when you drive, do you have both hands on the wheel or are you on the cell phone? What are the odds you'll be in an accident with a cell phone in your hands? It's the same with the saws if you one hand them you're more likely to have an accident whether it's a cell phone or a limb in your other hand. I one hand on occasion but usually two hand the saws. It's safer with two hands. It takes time to get used to the saw and the safest way to operate a saw is with both hands on the saw. Another thing I see a lot of is guys standing or positioning themselves directly in the path of the saw if it kicksback instead of to the left or right of the saw so if the saw takes off it has a clear path instead of a body to make contact with. I don't buy the idea that top handle saws are any more likely to have you one handing than a rear handle, as someone already said the rear handle, one handed, is more reach and just as unsafe but you see it being used. There is no way to make tools idiot proof so there are rules to follow to help you stay out of harms way.


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## clearance (Feb 19, 2005)

Sorry guys I should have been more specific. Whan I say push it away I am talking about overhang, branches that if cut right through would fall on the line. If the swing of the branch when its cut will not violate my B limits then yes, I hold on with one hand, cut with the other and throw it down. I get the branch to swing into the trunk usually. What I am getting at is that you can never let a branch touch the line while you are holding it or its still attached.


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## ccooperabbs (Feb 19, 2005)

Bit of bed time reading for those interested.

http://www.hsebooks.com/Books/produ..._name=HSEBooks&category_name=&product_id=3830


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## ORclimber (Feb 19, 2005)

Clearance, Are you for real?

Canada seems a bit more strict on safety than the US. I can't believe steel core fliplines would be legal there, because they aren't here. Also, can't believe one handing would be legal.

Also, what's up with pushing everything toward the wires? The last thing you want is to touch them with anything. I always pulled away from the wires, unless I was sure it would clear the other side(rare). Since you never want to turn your back from the wires, your work zone is between yourself and the wires. The first thing we'd do is cut a hole for the brush to go through. Then make your cuts so the brush goes through the hole without making contact. If that's not possible it's slice and dice time, gotta make sure the pieces are too short to reach you, or close a circuit, and too light to knock down the lines.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 19, 2005)

The young fellah askd *why* it's bad.

1. no man alive can control the force of a kickback incident
2. noone, no matter how experiance can predict wher the saw will go after the cickback.
3. the clutch will help, but it still takes time to engage, and that time can be more the it takes to touch your skin.

I've known several good, experianced climbers who have had close calls with kickback while onehanding, they all have been suprised at where the saw ended up, and they all thought they had good, safe body positioning when they started cutting.

My personal code is to do it as little as possible, the reason it is in the ANSI (and whatever the Canadian equivialant is) standards is to protect the worker from having the forman force them into unsafe habits/practice to increace productivity, and to protect the employer, who institues good saftey programs from the careless, lazy climber.

Yes, that is what i said, regular one handing is an unsafe, lazy method of operation. Anytime you use a higher risk method when there is a viable substitues you are not operating smart. We do this day in day out, there are enough risks inherant to the trade (especailly ROW veg. maint.) to carelessly role the dice several times a day.

Liek Tom says repeatedly, we have people who want us to come home,a nd need us to go bak to work every day. We should strive to do this in as safe a manner as possible, not as fast a manner as possible.

"Ahhhchewwwww, hey where's that blood coming from?"


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## TreemanFJR (Feb 19, 2005)

Does anyone have a good pic of using a loop runner for holding the branch and acting as a third hand? 

I did cut my finger, nearly all the way off one handing. I was ignorant, plain and simple. Everything you guys say about using two hands is true and worthy of hearing over and over again. I do use two hands religiously now.


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## clearance (Feb 19, 2005)

Orclimber-Read what I said about table B limits. I dont push stuff towards the line, I wait till I am above the primary before I turn my back, like I said overhang. Interesting that you make a "hole" we cut off lots of branches below the primary first, ground to sky on a transmission job. JPS-I can handle you calling me unsafe or even a utility hack but lazy is untrue and kind of mean. You say you do it as little as possible-but you do it anyway. Kind of like do as I say not as I do.


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## ccooperabbs (Feb 19, 2005)

Treeman,

If you follow the link I posted and download the document "safe working methods with top handled chainsaws", you will find the pics you requested.


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## ORclimber (Feb 19, 2005)

Clearance, I understand the minimum seperation requirements. The thing that concerns me is that when your working around the lines all day Sh!t happens. Everyone gets tingled sooner or later. Having a steel core flipline or hooks only invites a better path to ground IMO. Kind of like one handing a saw makes one more vulnerable to injury. I'll quit doing that someday...maybe next week.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 19, 2005)

clearance said:


> JPS-I can handle you calling me unsafe or even a utility hack but lazy is untrue and kind of mean. You say you do it as little as possible-but you do it anyway. Kind of like do as I say not as I do.



What I admit is that there are a few times where it may be safer to onehand then try to find an impractical position to make the cut, or that the risk is worth the time saved in redoing your tie-in to make it safe.

Just because I'm being frank with you dooes not mean I'm being mean. I'm saying *anyone* who regularly onehands just to spped up the job is operating in a lazy & unsafe manner.

I'm not positive, but i think that if your forerman is requiring that you operate this way he is violating Canadian safety protocol, and could get the company in trouble.

If you safety is a culture and attitude, so is sloppy unsafe behavior. Workplace injuries is a statistical thing, which is why we talk about rolling dice when doing unsafe things. 

you know that your job has some inherant risks to life and limb.
you have survived and recovered from a chainsaw injury.
If you *know* that a certain practice puts you at a greater risk of another injury, why would you use that practice on a day to day, or hour to hour level? How is that smart, increasing the risk to your life for productivity?

Why is your company demanding it of you?

OK I'll add in gaffing a trim is lazy too,


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## Stumper (Feb 19, 2005)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> The young fellah askd *why* it's bad.
> 
> 1. no man alive can control the force of a kickback incident
> 2. noone, no matter how experiance can predict wher the saw will go after the cickback.
> 3. the clutch will help, but it still takes time to engage, and that time can be more the it takes to touch your skin.




Dang John, I didn't even know I was dead!  The word you useed is control. Can I completely negate kickback forces before the saw moves? No. Control a kickback so that my body which wasn't in its path in the first place is not endangered? Yes. Climbing saws aren't that powerful. The bar tip isn't going to travel feet in my hand(s). A few inches of kickback could be dangerous if you are poorly positioned but that isn't what we are discussing. Both hands on the wheel at all times . Both hands on the saw at all times. Nice, safe rules. Needed rules for the inexperienced and for the experienced under some conditions. However, I don't drive that way every minute and I don't operate the saw that way every time. Real world. :angel:


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2005)

I've controlled many a kickback, with large and small saws. I also controlled my sphincter.


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## topnotchtree (Feb 19, 2005)

I think what clearance was talkin about when he said push limb away was being over and above the wire, cutting limbs, and pitching them on opposite side of wire from tree. I will NEVER climb a tree anywhere near a conductor with wirecore flip line. Clearance, you mentioned you cut away the entire shelf off the tree before you do the higher stuff. Try cutting a hole on the tree as you go up to your tie in. pitch all the overhanging and higher limbs thru the hole, then blast the shelf off on your way down. If you dont have a good hand saw, get one. I am sure you are familiar with side cutting a limb and peeling it around. Try getting into a position where you can side cut a few limbs at a time and peel them around ontop of each other, using a handsaw. Then make flush cuts using chainsaw and let limbs fall. I am not tryint to tell you how to do your job, I am just giving tips to be efficient without one handing. Where I work, one handing was against the rules but wasn't usually enforced till the past few years. Guys seem to be getting cut more and more from chainsaws. It has been a topic of safety meetings quite often. As I said in the start of this thread, I do catch myself one handing sometimes, but not nearly as much as I used to.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 20, 2005)

Stumper said:


> Dang John, I didn't even know I was dead!  The word you useed is control. Can I completely negate kickback forces before the saw moves? No. Control a kickback so that my body which wasn't in its path in the first place is not endangered? Yes.



I do believe you are mistaken when you say these forces are not great, or predictable.

But the premis of the argument is that the risk is far greater onehanded then 2 handed. If you regularly operate one handed in your day to daily operations, then you are lazy and foolish, and your loved ones should give you a good talking to.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 20, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> I've controlled many a kickback, with large and small saws. I also controlled my sphincter.



Youve blown through a few stopsigns and not got hit too, I'm sure. We all do it from tiem to time, but if you do it all the time your number is more likely to come up.

Tree work is what we do for a living. We do it every day. If your methods of operation assume higher risk factors unessisarly then you may not be going back to work some day.

How is it prudent to save a few seconds working in manner that puts you at a higher risk?


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## Stumper (Feb 20, 2005)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> How is it prudent to save a few seconds working in manner that puts you at a higher risk?



And therein lies a point of argument. Where does the higher risk lie? If it were always a matter of a few seconds I would accept the always use both hands argument more readily. Sometimes a simple one hand extension cut takes care of that one branch that would have required a swing, redirect, recrotching or all of those to get into position to use 2 hands. Sometimes getting into position to use 2 hands would require climbing on stuff that is inadequate for my weight. Is that safer? We can argue this forever. I agree that 2 hands on the saw is the best practice. I'll agree that too often we operate our saws sloppily and increase our risks. I personally have decided to not play the politically correct game. I one hand. I one hand because I deem it the wisest course in some situations. I also one hand at times just because I find it convenient and I am comfortable with the degree of control I have with one hand. Flame me , blame me, defame me but you will not shame me. People do stupid things with chainsaws. I DO stupid things with them now and then. ME onehanding MY climbing saw doesn't mean I'm being dangerous or sloppy :angel:


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 20, 2005)

You ain't the lone ranger, Justin!


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## Ny finest (Feb 20, 2005)

I do difficult removals almost exclusively and a I agree with Justin.I have one of the hardest jobs in the trade and I do not see myself as sloppy,careless or lazy.I've never done any real damage to myself or property.I see why it is important to make rules against itdue to rookies,uninterested people,etc.Companies have to use it as a security tool so if you get hurt one-handing its all on you.But if you're a dedicated professinal,rather intelligent,and passionate about your work as more than a job I dont see how anyone can say you're wrong for one-handing.


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## alanarbor (Feb 20, 2005)

I'll say you're wrong. It seems to me you are putting the job ahead of you're own well being. You talk the talk..... from your other thread I quote;

"All I ask is a couple of things :
1Safety is no 1"

Using two hands on a chainsaw is universally recognized as a safe work practice. 

Walk the walk.

You're worried about production? It's a learning curve. If you start out taught to use both hands every time, it's just how you do it. You plan your climb differently, and you plan your cuts differently. If you're changing from one-handing on a regular basis to two hand at all times, it's going to be uncomfortable, and yes, it's going to slow you down, until it becomes instinct. It's some temporary discomfort to know you're doing it right!

Taking a calculated risk is done because the results are USUALLY positive. You may get away with it 999 times out of 1000, but that 1 time is gonna cost you big. If you feel the odds are acceptable, then no one can tell you otherwise.


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## Ny finest (Feb 20, 2005)

First its not like I one-hand all th tine;only with a top handle and then in awkward positions.I can't believe its such a big deal and how some people say they NEVER do it.MB posted a picture of him one handing holding on to his rope for stability.I do that and feel that its safer to get comfortable than two-hand.And you can't always retie to fix the situation.But I'm sure you disagree,right?


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## alanarbor (Feb 20, 2005)

Refer to my previous post......It's in how you climb. You will learn to position yourself, and it won't take any extra effort on your part once it becomes habit. Yeah, it's easier to do it that way, becuse that how you're used to doing it. I'm not saying that relearning your habits will easy, or not be frustrating. I'm not saying that you're a lousy climber, I'm merely saying that;

1. One handing a chainsaw is not an accepted industry practice

2. It is possible to use 2 hands at all times. I work with people who do it every day, and they do difficult hazardous removals as well as any climbers I've ever seen.


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## clearance (Feb 20, 2005)

People can be put into different camps. 1. People who say it is bad but do it anyways 2. People who say they never do it. 3. People who do it but are carefull. If you say its bad and insult others for doing it then you lose credibility. As far as holding your climbing line with one hand and your saw with the other the whole point of one handing is to hold the branch or push of the top with your other hand. I am always attached with 3 points, right spur, left spur and scare strap sometimes 4 points if I am also tied in with my climbing line. Pretty well planted in the tree to do my work, dont start slagging me for wearing spurs cause I am doing removals or trimming tree that have been and will be again trimmed for line clearance. Some of these trees are ok but because of where they are and what has to be done to them they will never be specimens. If I dont need to hold or push anything then I always use two hands. Couldnt imagine one handing without my spurs on, couldnt imagine climbing w/o spurs but thats just me. Bottom line here is, if you dont like it-dont do it. If you do it-be real carefull, dont want anyone saying "ha ha loser told ya!" if you cut yourself. Thanks for the input everyone.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 20, 2005)

I am always attached with 3 points, right spur, left spur and scare strap sometimes 4 points if I am also tied in with my climbing line.

I don't know what the rules are in BC but in the US and most of the rest of the world spike contact with the tree doesn't count as attachment. They possibly count as contact. Lanyard and rope count as attachment.

If you're close enough to cut and grab you're in a good enough position to two-hand the saw. Put me in group 2...sort of. There is wording in ANSI Z133 that does allow for one-handed use. It's pretty darn rare that I use that concession. When I do, I have at least rope and lanyard, probably two lanyards and rope. Then I position myself and all gear to be well away from any posible kickback route. What I've found is that it's more work to get into that position than it is to cut it with a handsaw or two-hand the chainsaw. 

Clearance, have you asked your loved ones to read this thread and make a decision for you? Any of us are capable of "poisoning the jury" with our rationalizations.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 20, 2005)

Gawddam guys, it's an advanced move that should only be used by an experienced user, and it should be kept to a _MINIMUM!!!_

'Nuff said!


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## Ny finest (Feb 20, 2005)

alanarbor,
One handing a chainsaw is not an accepted industry practice because rookies and such would get hurt.I have been operating a saw for ten years and I know exactly how it will react.You say you can position yourself differently but sometimes you can't.
I'm not trying to be contentious;I just thinthat pros are almost required at one point in time or another.I can,t believe you think its never right or acceptable


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## spacemule (Feb 21, 2005)

Where's Mike Mass?


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## Old Monkey (Feb 21, 2005)

I've only been on this forum for a couple of days and I love it. I never knew there was such a big "one hand" vs. "two hand" debate. I'm going try and cut how I do "normally" tomorrow and see what I do. I know I'm somewhat evil, cutting one handed sometimes(left handed and right handed) but I not sure how much I do it. I think its good to always keep examing the way you do the things you do and try to improve yourself. I also worry about folks who adhere to the rules as if they were handed down by the almighty himself. I think everything is situational and its hard to judge other climbers based on written descriptions or even photos. Are some of the guys on this site blowing up photos to play "gotcha!" with other climbers and find any flaw in practice or PPE? Although, I must say a wire core flip line for line clearing work makes my testes suck back up into my body.


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## NeTree (Feb 21, 2005)

I think 99 percent of the time the argument is pure bullsh!t. That is, most of the stuff that gets one-handed isn't nearly large enough to put the bar in the "kickback" zone to begin with. But hey, what do I know.


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## alanarbor (Feb 21, 2005)

It's obvious we've reached an impasse here: one side that believes it's possible to do the job day in, day out without one handing a saw, and one that doesn't.

I think we've reached a point where further debate is counter productive, and will only serve to annoy people. So what say we bag this thread before it degenerates into complete chaos and name calling for lack of any further intelligent discourse?!


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## Ny finest (Feb 21, 2005)

I went to work today...I must say this discussion made me a little more aware.Thanks everybody


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 21, 2005)

Stumper said:


> And therein lies a point of argument. Where does the higher risk lie? If it were always a matter of a few seconds I would accept the always use both hands argument more readily. Sometimes a simple one hand extension cut takes care of that one branch that would have required a swing, redirect, recrotching or all of those to get into position to use 2 hands. Sometimes getting into position to use 2 hands would require climbing on stuff that is inadequate for my weight. Is that safer? We can argue this forever. I agree that 2 hands on the saw is the best practice. I'll agree that too often we operate our saws sloppily and increase our risks. I personally have decided to not play the politically correct game. I one hand. I one hand because I deem it the wisest course in some situations. I also one hand at times just because I find it convenient and I am comfortable with the degree of control I have with one hand. Flame me , blame me, defame me but you will not shame me. People do stupid things with chainsaws. I DO stupid things with them now and then. ME onehanding MY climbing saw doesn't mean I'm being dangerous or sloppy :angel:



OK Justin, it sounds like we are in the same camp. I said I one hand on occasion. But I do not do it as a mtter of course. A concious descision that I've taken a few seconds to think about and rule out repositioning as the best way to go.

And i should have said

1. no man alive can control the force of a kickbak with one hand.



> I went to work today...I must say this discussion made me a little more aware.Thanks everybody



If that's the only thing we did her, it's well worth the time.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 21, 2005)

Ny finest said:


> I went to work today...I must say this discussion made me a little more aware.Thanks everybody




A most excellent post, indeed!


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## okietreedude1 (Feb 21, 2005)

Ny finest said:


> I went to work today...I must say this discussion made me a little more aware.





Me too....at just how much I DO (did today) one hand stuff!


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