# interested in spurless



## 1I'dJak (Feb 13, 2006)

Hey fellas, new member here. Been climbing for about a year now.... jumped right into it... Work in victoria, cananda...We do mainly res work, though i've done some windfirming in the bush...wild! Anyways, I'm looking to do more spurless climbing...we use spurs much of the time, and when we don't, it's mainly plunk the ladder up the tree and shinny the rest...What's a good resource to learn more about the methods and gear needed for spurless..


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

Welcome to the site Jak, I windfirm up in the Charlottes. Good for you to want to spurless climb, great, guys who climb with spurs are just lazy hacks, terrible people.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 13, 2006)

yeah that seems to be the main consent...though in some situations i'd rather use spurs and i'm sure i'll hear about it from the purists....but with some of the bigger trees i'd rather use spurs...ie windfirming...the guy i work for is old school, former line clearance guy, so spurless is not so much his bag...I just wanna be profficient in both...I've wanted to post on this site before, but sometimes people here seem quick to jump on another guys case if one's not a isa purist... clearance, where does one get hydro clearing certification in bc?


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

Jak is was just pulling your leg, I'm actually a hack that always wears spurs, and now caulks as well to climb. You get to be a cua by going to school in Surrey at the electrical industry training institute and then working for a couple of years. Check out "utility arborist B.C." on the net. Why did you quit windfirming, it is almost twice the money as a cua, at least for me $275/six and a half hour day. Union rate for a cua is $23.25HR..


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 13, 2006)

I like doing as much variety as possible, whether it be res, firming, or possibly utility... equals more work opportunities....we've got some widfirming work in the port alberni area but its under snow....firming sure made a man outta me though... took me 2 tie ins and a partial third(off a neighbouring tree) to gett offa one tree... thats with 150' rope (i figure 180' at least) tall second growth fir trees... anyways when i came back to do res, the trees that sketched me out seem like nothin now.... the big rush was grappelling from one tree to the other.... I'm looking forward to going back...but I've worked in the forest industry for several years and know how up and down the work can be.... so the more certification for different climbing the better


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

Jak-windfirming sure is a blast, it is just old growth up here, lots of 150' some over 200'. It can be a rush cutting down sketchy trees by powerlines too. Utilty work is no walk in the park, there are a million variables, Hydro inspectors, WCB guys, city arborists, treehuggers who yell and scream, motorists who speed through work zones, useless groundsmen. It is good when you are on a decent crew doing removals for a Hydro guy who will back you up (rare). Mostly you will be trimming if you are running a boom truck, I found this very boring. Like I said look on the net, my card says British Columbia industry training authority.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 13, 2006)

funny, i ask about spurless and end up talking with a fellow spur-man...doing res work in victoria is much the same as you describe... motorists flying by you, tree huggers and grouchy old ladies with nothing better to do than call you a buthcher.... thanks for the heads up... running a boom truck does sound boring.... How long is your firming season? I'm also curious why are they windfirming old growth... seems to me its the second growth that mostly need it, as its often tall and spindly and the rooting area is more compromised...


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

Jak- the wind just comes howling through here it is crazy and it will stay windy for days on end. I have seen trees that are 6'-8' at the butt and about 3' at over a 150' with the top ripped off. If you don't top it, it is on the ground. Some days the ferry will not leave the dock in Prince Rupert because of the waves and it is a proper ship. If you are doing res. work and tell ignorant people where to go and how to get there, all they can do is call your boss. Same thing with Hydro work and they will call Hydro saying they have been "verbally assaulted", couldn't believe it, guess who is always the bad guy?


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 13, 2006)

so you actually are topping the trees eh? what i was doing was taking of about 30-50% of the upper canopy....and now that i think about it we were topping the hemlocks... i know about the wind up there... i spent a couple seasons commercial fishing all round the island from cape st james to rose spit... have you ever been single stemming?


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

No, I never have done that, just chunked down logs or firewood. You must have worked for Steve, I know about it. I really would not like to be in any boat under 300' long anywhere around here. There are logs on the highway after a storm and that is on the protected east coast. I didn't even like flying into Sandspit, not much of a runway and then your in the chuck.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 13, 2006)

i've never single stemmed myself either, just looking for some feedback... there was an opportunity but i'm not experienced enough... specially since its a helicopter show, you gotta be a highballer... i've still got a lot to learn... I take it pretty slow and methodically...I definetly don't freeclimb, though some do and that's how they highball....We actually subcontracted to a contractor who in turn subcontracted to REM... i don;t know any names... but all this talking about it is getting me pumped to go... melt snow melt! Trimming the leylandii hedge tommorow or deadwoooding some poopy little dying balsam is gonna seem pretty lame!


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

I used to freeclimb utility but no more, two steel cores always. I know guys that worked standing stem and windfirming for Steve. I have never met him. I still haven't got used to the real big trees myself, the 3' ones are a cakewalk. This site is pretty cool, there are lots of smart guys here, even some of the ones I beef with are very knowlegedable about trees. The ISA is a big deal here, I think being ISA certified is like an Asian with a drivers licence. They bought the licence, but can they drive? You will get that. Davey is big in utility on the island, the head office is somewhere there.


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## legendrider (Feb 13, 2006)

*spurless for me anytime*

i dont know how you guys like them so much id much rather use the rope all the way up anytime, dont mind jumpin out of the bucket either though lol


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## clearance (Feb 13, 2006)

Legend- when it comes to windfirming if you have to ask, you don't understand. Try spurless climbing a Red Cedar with no branches for 80' and then they all droop down. I to have climbed out of the bucket, with spurs of course. Anyways, help this guy out he wants to learn how to hump rope or whatever you guys do.


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## legendrider (Feb 13, 2006)

*understood*

didnt even know what that was lol, but i see your point!!


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## legendrider (Feb 13, 2006)

*spurless*

best thing to learn i find is using the throwball to set a climbing line as high as you can. i tie in most of the time using a schwabisch with a micro pulley as a slack tender. you can walk up the tree hand over hand even better if you have a groundie that can help you out. if your using a blake, use a split tail and attache the pulley that will work fine too.


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## Stumper (Feb 13, 2006)

Wildcard, Pick up a copy of The Tree Climber's Companion by Jeff Jepson. Get the 2nd edition-The first edition is good but there is a lot of extra stuff in the second. The illustrations and commentary in the book willl take you far. -And this forum and a couple of others willl help expand your knowedge and skills tremendously.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 14, 2006)

tree climber companion eh? thanx...what's a swabisch? my lingo and techie lingo are primitive....I climb... I rappel with the taughtline....I tie off with the running bowline or a clove hitch.... we just rig stuff down using the crotch and some line... however i do have a ascender.... a little hand held jobbie... I'm slowly accumulating gear so i can do more stuff own my own with less primitive methods...just bought fundamentals of general tree work and a couple of books by shigo....i love this job...i've gone to school on and off for several years and worked in the woods... none of it brought me real satisfaction... this job combines both...that is until i show up to a site to side trim and top a big ol' ugly laurel...


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 14, 2006)

Stumper said:


> Wildcard, Pick up a copy of The Tree Climber's Companion by Jeff Jepson. The illustrations and commentary in the book willl take you far.



Pay close attention to the illustration on the bottom of page 65. The talk about single rope technique would be very beneficial to tall stem climbers.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 14, 2006)

thanx guys... i'm looking forward to learning what i can from this site...
reep it keal...


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## Jumper (Feb 14, 2006)

Tree Climbers Companion is a good place to start for sure....if I can understand the presentation anyone can. Likely of more value is to work/hang out with someone who is spurless for at the least pruning jobs, and watch what he/she does.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 22, 2006)

what's the deal with these self tending systems you describe?


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## legendrider (Feb 22, 2006)

*simple method*

The self tending system I am refering to is more basic than alot on here. If you can climb with a split tail and a blake hitch it will work. a taughtline will bind up on you, attach a micro oulley the biner holding the split tail and place your climging line through the pulley below the friction hitch, you can thrus upward hand over hand and the pulley will advance your hitch of you have a ground worker tend your slack other wize stop and pull your slack out with your other hand. you can climb several more feet then using the traditional body thrust and use less energy. the pulley system has value when limb walking as you can just tend your slack with one hand. main trick is to keep a short bridge between your split tail and hitch,, the schwabish is just another climbing hitch that advances easier and can be tied with a eye to eye cord


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## legendrider (Feb 22, 2006)

*gaffs*

im still amazed how you guys just walk up a tree using very little effort and no lanyard at times spike climbing ages me 5 years every time i do it lol


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## clearance (Feb 22, 2006)

Jak-I"ll put it so you can understand, schwabisch=siwash, micro pulley=block, slack tender=hook tender, split tail=girlfriend left you, friction hitch=girlfriend has it, traditional body thrust=with girlfriend, pulley system=blocks for yarder, slack tend with one hand=time to get the girlfriend back. Just joking Jak, I too am puzzled but I am sure these guys know how to do it. Got no problems myself, maybe I'll try and get my groundsman to pull me up too!


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 23, 2006)

ok...i've been looking at all your guys' stuff about the split tail self tending sysytems...basically i would like to learn to spurless so i can demand a raise, become more skilled, and get outta trimming hedges and pruning fruit trees... I'm gonna be teaching myself mostly...therefore i would like it simple yet efficient... (having one funtional eye makes things tough enough sometimes)...plus i probably won't be climbing this way on a regular basis so simple+good... what's the best gear for a simpleton... oh year and technical jargon boggles me...
word


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## clearance (Feb 23, 2006)

Demand a raise cause you can climb spurlees? Thats a good one, Jak, did you like my explanations above?


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 24, 2006)

makes sense to me...some trees here in vic you have to climb spurless or risk a fine (garry oak & arbutus) and there's money to be made in them... although i still maybe hold a bit of a redneck opinion towards it... if i'm up island and my friend wants me to trim some of his hemlock,spruce,cedar, fir, whatever trees, put em on... i've worked in the woods for many years an know how tough them trees are...they get scratched by bears and cougars, get smashed up by windfall or logging, blazed by engineers, whatever and they're fine... but some thin barked, spindly ass city tree...theyre kinda feeble and my spurmarks sometimes don't look so good on 'em!... Howlers bar still running?


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## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Yeah, weekass city trees, I have eaten at Howlers restaurant, never gone to the bar I don't drink.


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## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Dan-have you gone to the Asplundh yard and told the guys you ratted them out yet?


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## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow, rats don't usually have that much jam, I am almost impressed, what did they say, or maybe they knew they would have to piece of thier supervisor, still amazing. Actually I'm at a loss for words.


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## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Dan look to the beginning of this thread, Jak is a good decent spur guy at heart but trying to learn your way too, I asked people to help him and stayed away for a while, just a couple of jokes lately. Check it out from page one, since when do you decide anyways, and we who spur in the bush do get paid way more than anyone in the city, spurless or not.


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## Redbull (Feb 24, 2006)

The big problem I see is that Clearance is spouting off about residential spurless tree care when that is not his forte. But when someone mentions anything about utility work, he goes off like he invented it. Clearance, I respect what you do, but leave tree care to the pros and we'll leave utility work to you.


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## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Some of you talk about utility like you have a clue, you would be electrocuted in no time cause you don't and have no right giving advice about it. Climbing with spurs in utility is allowed by my utility which employs ISA cert. guys, so do something about that or shut up. I have done lots of res. almost all removals, trees are just trees, not statues of the Virgin Mary. Besides, you spurless guys outnumber me like 30-1 here, what are you scared of, freedom of speech? I did not invent utility Red, but I respect the men who taught me and do as they say. Yes, I know spurless is better for the trees, climb however you want, rig however you want, no hard feelings, at least with you.


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## rebelman (Feb 24, 2006)

Many places have a very high ratio of residential climbers who spike. In other words clearance is the norm for residential in the real world. Maybe it's just the south. Yes, I grow weary of clearance at times, but I say let him spout off for now, maybe something good will come from the chaos. Maybe an elementary education of homeowners will take root in reaction to his mindset.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 24, 2006)

jeez..heavy stuff here...ummm... so i need to get a micropulley, a chunk of spliced rope to tie onto my climbing line (how long?), a swivel snap for my micropulley...is this right?...i ordered some stuff from wesspur so i imagine they've got it...off this topic onto the hot topic: i find that clearance adds colour to this site, i can rap about windfirming with him... and his posts are amusing...conflict keeps things spicy...
word


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## antigrassguy (Feb 24, 2006)

Jak, secure footlock. Less "toys" and faster. Check it out and have fun.


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## jmack (Feb 25, 2006)

*fair*



Redbull said:


> The big problem I see is that Clearance is spouting off about residential spurless tree care when that is not his forte. But when someone mentions anything about utility work, he goes off like he invented it. Clearance, I respect what you do, but leave tree care to the pros and we'll leave utility work to you.


well said and fair


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## jmack (Feb 25, 2006)

*shocked*



rebelman said:


> Many places have a very high ratio of residential climbers who spike. In other words clearance is the norm for residential in the real world. Maybe it's just the south. Yes, I grow weary of clearance at times, but I say let him spout off for now, maybe something good will come from the chaos. Maybe an elementary education of homeowners will take root in reaction to his mindset.


by me no res. climbers spike you would be shot by the homeowner or persued by an angry crowd when you came down


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## jmack (Feb 25, 2006)

*body thrust*



1I'dJak said:


> jeez..heavy stuff here...ummm... so i need to get a micropulley, a chunk of spliced rope to tie onto my climbing line (how long?), a swivel snap for my micropulley...is this right?...i ordered some stuff from wesspur so i imagine they've got it...off this topic onto the hot topic: i find that clearance adds colour to this site, i can rap about windfirming with him... and his posts are amusing...conflict keeps things spicy...
> word


learn da basics, rope 150' small for your area i know but yer learning, saddle ya got one? throw bag line , set rope some where low around the main trunk clove hitch around bottom dees ( seat) back up half hitch around rope leave slack on this piece or tail a few inches longer than your arm shoulder to fingertips tie the tautline hitch with this. back up after the knot with an overhand jam knot or figure eight lean back place feet against tree hip thrust to the sky while siultanaelousy pulling your rope down hold at bottom and slide the knot up. if you feel that this is difficult you could be doing it right keep us posted and hold off on the doodads for now


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## antigrassguy (Feb 25, 2006)

Jak, Sherrill arbor supply would be a good place for you to start learning. GREAT cataloge with many tips. They have the Tree climbers companion book. For short climbs, 10'-15', hip thrust method is ok, but longer Id use footlock. More vertical for energy used. I try to use the KISS theory as much as possible, plus Im really lazy.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 25, 2006)

thanks guys...i've just got a throwline kit... my saddle is a weaver...lanyard dees and fixed side dees for the seat...as i mentioned before i think a lot of companies around here spur up the trees (even the ones you're not allowed to: garry oak and arbutus..madrone in the us i think) and nobody has ever said boo to us...but here in canada and especially vancouver island we're a little more backwoods... however i'm into learning and getting good enough that my boss won't wonder why i'm wasting time not spurring...


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 25, 2006)

ha ha! did 'er....footlocked my way up a garry oak in our backyard.... just set my self up for rappelling....except more length on from my dees to my blakes... easier in my running shoes with no heel... also put my ascender under my blakes and that made it easier... took a bit getting used to but i got the idea...fun... took a bit more time than it wood spurring up it but it was fun!
word


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## clearance (Feb 26, 2006)

Good for you Jak, soon you will be a more versatile climber than me, the more tricks in your bag, the better. I'll just stay in the backwoods, away from the civilized folk.


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## antigrassguy (Feb 26, 2006)

way to go Jak, never stop learning.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 26, 2006)

yeah well i think the only real climbing i'm gonna be doing is on my weekends.. tis the season here in vic for fruit trees and hedges... trimming a hedge on friday made me want to quit... gonna be moving to a different locale where there's less of this...probably gonna split between res and windfirming...but like a mentioned before the big firming outfit on the island REM went tits up... they kinda get all the work and subcontract it out...so i dunno... i really hate the hedges and fruit trees though!


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## clearance (Feb 26, 2006)

Jak, I almost hate to say this but try and stick it out for a while, you will become a much more rounded treeguy. I am a hammer it down, clearcut, production type, others are ISA people who are good at pruning little trees with handsaws, if you can do hedges, spurless, fall, windfirm, prune and maybe do utility, you will be able to do any tree work in the province.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 26, 2006)

yeah you're right man... it just ain't very glamourous sitting up in an apple tree snip snip snipping away...maybe if i was working for myself it kinda peaceful...and sitting up in the middle of a 15' wide leyland hedge gettin poked in the ass and tangled up speaks for itself...but do my time then i can eventually send some kid up there to do it while i drive around, do estimates and do the fun jobs!-


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 19, 2006)

i've noticed when footlocking i have a better feel when i'm wearing my running shoes as opposed to my work boots...i'd like to find a shoe/boot that has the feeling of a shoe but the safety of a workboot... any suggestions?


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