# new climbing styles vs. old



## treeclimber165 (Jul 31, 2002)

I have somewhat of a dilemma concerning all these newfangled climbing tools. Most of what I have learned in the last 5-10 years about climbing and new gear has been through industry mags and of course the Sherrill catalogue. When conversing with other climbers in places like this, it seems like EVERYONE uses all this new stuff. But in REAL LIFE, I have only met one climber who uses a split-tail system, and I climbed twice as fast as him. I still climb with my old-fashioned Karl Kuemmerling belt, never had a 'biner attached to it and probably wouldn't know what to do with one if I had it. I can tie my tautline hitch without looking- one handed. I trust it with my life without even thinking about it. I have seen pics of some of the setups some guys use, and it is a mass of confusion and multiple ropes with multiple attachments. WAY too much stuff for me to worry about. I'll stick with one rope and one locking clip, thank you.

If I ever could actually work with someone as adept with all this new stuff as you guys seem to be, it might be different. But in my world, it isn't here. Why does this stuff only exist online and in magazines?


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## greenguy (Jul 31, 2002)

I started out the same way but know use a distel and micro pulley. I know the old tricks and as many new ones that I find out about.I use a versitile saddle,figure8 steel&alum biners.swivels hpd rollers .I do not use some of it all the time but quiet a bit extra gear goes in the bag. I also use bashlin spikes with super wrap pads for removals. I also use blocks,port a wrap,hobbs, slings slide line crane what ever it takes to get the job done right fast safe and profitable and easy. I still have to go home and mow the lawn at the end of the day.


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## rahtreelimbs (Aug 1, 2002)

On a scale of 1 to 10, as a climber I'm about a 6. As far as I'm concerned I will use whatever I can find to make climbing easier. Rich.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 1, 2002)

It ain't rocket science, add one new toy to your system and work it untill you are comfortable, then add another. In no time at all you will be eagerly awaiting the next new innovation.


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## jbw (Aug 1, 2002)

*climbing*

i also started climbing with a kummerling saddle (in boston ''85). but in the last 7 yrs i have adapted my style to the newer equipment and techniques. when new equipment comes out i usually let a fellow climber try it, then i can see it in action rather than fall for a marketing gimick. i feel that you should incorporate new things slowly so that you can feel comfortable and confident in the tree.

climb safely.


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## TREETX (Aug 1, 2002)

I have to agree about not actually seeing this stuff. It almost seems like there is a gap between mags, catalogs and the real world just like there is a huge gap between academia and reality.

I am not saying that these new techniques are not faster or viable, I am just saying that I never see others in the field using it.

Is it because there is a learning curve on it?? i.e. - It will make you faster but for the first few days, you will be slower and more akward?? I think that perception is my largest barrier to entry. I know my split tails and my current system well. My other barrier to entry is that all of these mechanical devices, pulleys, etc. have moving parts. Parts that can fail and leave you stuck on a job. If my tail breaks or gets lost by a groundie, I can just cut another one out of my "parts rope". If these mechanical things get lost or fail, you are waiting on FED-EX or you are climbing feeling akward with the "old school" tautline or blake's. 

How do you start?? Just buy it and practice in your free time??


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## The Big Hurt (Aug 1, 2002)

*If its not broke dont fix it...*

Is what I say. If your climbing style works good and quick why upgrade to the newest technology. Its just a waste of money and time learning in my mind. I have been climbing the same way with the same gear since I first started climbing and I see no need to change now.


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## seanlarkin (Aug 2, 2002)

There can seem to be a gap in some cases. From my perspective, I am exposed to all the new stuff, am always speaking with innovators, and have seen some crazy crap that will never make it to market, so I usually get a little culture shock when I hear so few people using a newer technique that I thought was sooo popular.
However, the "if it ain't broke" argument doesn't work for me. I can certainly understand the comfortability factor, and I'm not discounting that, but outside of that, just because you've been doing something for 10 years doesn't mean it can't be improved upon, right? Black and white TV wasn't "broke", but people found a way to improve upon it.
This thread has many good points. Make sure you're comfortable with what you're doing. If you want to try new things, take it slow and low... just to name a couple. Stay safe.
-Sean


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## underwor (Aug 2, 2002)

As an instructor, I start the students out with the same basic that I did. Double Bowline on a Bight saddle and tautline hitch, nothing else needed in 1967. Then I introduce them to some options: Blake, Prussics, 6 types of saddles, lanyards (2-3), various ropes, etc. From this, I let each develop their own style. Last year my top two climbing students had completely different styles by the end of the class. Both are excellent climbers and perfectly safe. They both probably think I am nuts for using the old tautline and other techniques, but I can tie them in my sleep and they are comfortable. However, on tall trees I am switching to entering the tree using single rope and ascenders, just because it is easier on the old body to let the legs do the lifting. 

You will see many changes in your career as a tree worker. I am even going back to the faster handsaws on stuff below 4" from a small chainsaw because it is lighter to carry and faster when you add in getting in position and starting the saw. One point to consider, some employers and customers equate trying new techniques and equipment with keeping up to date on all aspects of tree care. They figure that if you are not inquisitive enough to try to work smarter, you probably aren't keeping up with the advances in tree health and care techniques either. Just something to consider.

Bob Underwood,


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## Frans (Aug 2, 2002)

*climbing skills referral*

Simple and Safe is often better.

You might contact Tom Dunlop. He teaches classes on advanced and basic climbing techniques and I know he has a segment on simple and safe methods...


Frans


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## City climber (Aug 2, 2002)

*Old vs new*

When I started climbing manilla was the rope of choice. There have been great advances in the tools we use. Power pruner ,lowering devices, pulleys, the ropes we have now are great. I still use a tautline never had a problem with it. I have made some improvements with my climbing gear though, use a pinnacle saddle, steel core flipline,assorted slings, Technology is great if you can use it to save you time .awear and tear on your body.


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## The Big Hurt (Aug 2, 2002)

*New Technology*

I think that new technology in the equipment we use is crucial for the advancements that have occoured over the years but when I say "why change now" I am referring more to climbing styles and techniques. I am all about better and safer equipment that I currently use but I dont feel a need to use new climbing gadgets that will take time to learn when I can get into trees efficiently as it is. I may end up getting into a tree faster with the new toys but its not worth all of the time I would have to take it slow and low to learn it because my productivity would suffer during that amount of time and I hate being unproductive....its not good for business.


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## murphy4trees (Aug 3, 2002)

Do you guys still use dial up phones too? How about drum chippers?
No disrespect intended... after all it is literally your LIFE on the line. I respect (almost) any man willing to do that to put food on the table. 
I was resistant at first too. The tree, the rope, the saddle and me. That was a safe equation. I reasoned any extra equipment was adding extra potential for failure and therefore injury. That was before I got educated. And before I tried the Big Shot. 
The Big Shot opened my mind to a vast horizon of possibilities. The added productivity, safety, and versatility of that one tool go beyond words. Looking back at my pre-big shoot career seems like the Stone Age to me.
So I put this question out to all you guys using old school technique.... Have you ever seen a world class climber move through a tree? My guess is you haven't. You can't get "it" from a book, magazine, or catalogue. You have to see it in action.
I once had the pleasure of watching Mark Chisholm use double line ascenders to foot lock up about 50'. He was 50' up before anybody else would have had the first outrigger pad on the ground, and he wasn't even trying.
Did you see the article on this same subject in July's TCI magazine? Davey did a before and after productivity study of new and old school technique on three of their best climbers. Productivity initially dropped 10% as they were going through the learning curve... then increase by a solid (and IMO huge) 30%. 30% more productivity and that was using Blake's, not French prussic or other advanced hitches.
So learning this new way is like learning to climb all over again. Lot's of fooling and fumbling around and feeling awkward etc. You have to be willing to go through that. There is gold on the other side.
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 3, 2002)

Wow, very well put!


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## rahtreelimbs (Aug 3, 2002)

Nicely put, Murphy4trees. Rich.


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 22, 2002)

Daniel,
You were absolutely right about the BigShot! Since buying mine I've started seeing all kinds of different options for rigging AND climbing. Getting used to using the split-tail and distal hitch attached with 2 biners instead of one steel locking clip. Setting ropes is a breeze now and all kinds of things are possible that I never considered before. 
Thanks!


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## Nickrosis (Sep 22, 2002)

Right on, Daniel.

In the world of climbers, there is a trickle down effect of people using new equipment. First, pioneers (ITCC climbers, judges, organizers, etc.) purchase or are given "toys" that they experiment with and either recommend or discourage it to the next person. These other people (online forum readers, TCI Mag. and Sherrill catalog readers) pick up on what works and pass it on to their coworkers.

At this point, the products that work have been flame-tested and proven in competitions and in the marketplace. A beginner climber shouldn't start out on a prototype tool, naturally. At the same time, we should be listening to people and find what works best and integrate it gradually into our preferred climbing system.

Nickrosis


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## Stumper (Sep 22, 2002)

Initially I resisted the "new" techniques. I didn't think they were bad, just reasoned that increased complexity meant increased chances for failure.-Besides I only climb a few times a month. I'm glad that curiosity got the better of me. Now I'm back to climbing trees that I *could* manage to do without climbing. Security isn't compromised it is enhanced and climbing is fun again.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 22, 2002)

In my experience a lot of climbers are first exposed to progressive climbing techniques by the use of a split tail. then the move to an advanced firction hitch. If these two tools make sense with the climber thier progression to other modern climbing tools and techniques is quick. Being open to new climbing skills is just as important as being open to new tree care skills like Bob U. said. 

Think for a second. Here we are, using one of the most advanced forms of mass communication and we're talking about climbing skills that were eclipsed probably ten years ago. Now hold on! I'm not saying that there isn't value in knowing those skills and that some climbers can be just as productive. The point is, climbing skills are advancing just like other technology. Take one little piece and incorporate that into your kit. Then add another. Pretty soon you'll be having more fun and working easier. This isn't something that I just think, this is one thing thatI'm absolutely as sure of as the sun coming up tomorrow morning. Using progressive climbing skills will add many healthy years to your career.

Doesn't everyone expect their dentist, accountant, doctor, car mechanic, veteranarian, grocery store, etc. to keep up with the arc of technology in their profession? Shouldn't arbos do the same?

Like I told Craig in another thread, my 48 year old body is feeling much healthier than my early 30's yerar old body. Why? A lot is because of new climbing tools and techniques. You owe it to yourself and your family to keep current.

If you don't see anyone else using progressive climbing techniques, search them out. Have you been to your chapter Tree Climbing Championships? How about attending any or all of the chapter training sessions? That's where you have the best chance of meeting up with modern climbers. Treat yourself to a vacation and attend the TCI Expo in Milwaukee. There'll be a lot of good training sessions there. 

I'll have to say that I don't know anyone, besides some of the people on this forum, that still climb without at least a split tail. Biners to replace those heavy rope snaps are the next step. Even if you don't use all of the other advantages you don't keep chopping your rope into a shorter and shorter line. That was what attracted me to using a split tail umpteen, yse I think it's "teen" years, ago.

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 22, 2002)

I use a snap on the working end of my climbing line, biner on the hitch side.

Yes there is a learning curve, and when you go to the tress hitches the cord length can be a critical factor. I spliced my own cord and am now wortking in full gear on a 3:1 distal (can't remember which is which, mine is like a taughtline) it moves perfect and does not lock up on me. just a little tug on the downrope picks up the slack.


IMO all these addons are tweeks, they don't have any one real huge advantage, but the total advantage is not linear.

After getting acender FL down I cannot see doing it any other way.

Now that I can make a tress cord (vs. splitail) for less the $2 of rope while watching the football game, I will not go back to the ST. If I drop it or forget it, I stll hav an extra biner to run an anchor-tail-Blake's. Heck, I'll do that on small trees that I have the rope more for a decender then a climbing aide.

Brian, maybe when you get a new saddle it will work better for you. I started in a KK saddle, loved my Buck Master when I first got into it.


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## rbtree (Sep 23, 2002)

Tom,

I'm just starting to use a steel biner (or sometimes a shot pouch) for those times when I need to flip my lifeline up a ways. The weight sure helps. I clip my lifeline end directly to the Versatile loops, so a snap would be awkward to get in that small space. And heavy all the time. I've really grown accustomed to climbing on two separated loops, so havent gone back to the sliding D set up for ages-i should. May get a butterfly....

JPS,

How do yo make your hitch loops with the tenex? I kinda watched the Sherril splicer. Didnt all sink in tho, I remember he was tapering the ends to get a smooth bury- to make the line appear seamless. It is neat how the 3/8 ends up being almost 1/2 inch when spliced. I have enuf to make a few...however I prefer the feel of 3/8 double braid.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 23, 2002)

Can-do-it, 

I'm very encouraged when I hear people like you or treeclimber165. It gives me a boost of energy to press on.

Rbtree,

You create two eyes and bury. The buries should overlap, so taper the ends so that you don't create a bulge or low spot. Even if you do, like I did last week, the strength difference is negligible. The real issue, I believe, is that the bulge could press against your climbing line and end up wearing faster. Good luck.

Nickrosis


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2002)

The eyes are made with a locking brummel splice. 

make the first tuck then take the running end and tuck it through the tail of your first tuck, so they will lock against each other. then cut your taper and burry. 

Someone linked a good diagram a while back, cant find it. It is for a mobius brummel, which works very well for ultratech


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## Nickrosis (Sep 24, 2002)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, JPS, but it sounds like you're using the same end and tucking twice. It's more than that, and I'd really like a picture now!


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## hillbilly (Sep 24, 2002)

JPS, Nick, it was this one, right ?

http://www.newenglandropes.com/splice/sp13_sbraid_eye_brummel.htm

Splicing is like therapy, real relaxing and quite rewarding.
I picked some rela weird rope yesterday at a marine / sailing
shop. It's called "Mulitplait", it reminds of 3-strand although it's
8-strand. Mine is 14 mm diameter and breaks at 46 kN. Also has "superior abrasion resistance".
Must find a use for it, it is a joy to splice, and the splice becomes
square-shaped


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2002)

That is the link I was talking about.

The way i do it would look like skipping steps 4-9. 

the diagram is the best way to do ultratech. Becuase it has a sheath, the only other way you can get a locking splice it to do a rebraid of the end


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## CJ-7 (Sep 26, 2002)

Hey Hillbilly, That Multiplait looks like a hawser from a baby tugboat!


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## hillbilly (Sep 26, 2002)

*"That Multiplait looks like a hawser from a baby tugboat!"*

Hehe CJ-7, it might just be something like that.
Is see no problem in using it as a MTIP, False Crotch, or whatever
you want to call it. It's pretty expensive, that's the
only real con. I can see.


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## CJ-7 (Sep 26, 2002)

Hilbilly, For a Swede, you have the english language down better than most of the arbos on the site, your spelling is a whole lot better than most. Are you a transplant from the US of A? My grandfather came over in 1890 and worked the northern Michigan hardwood lumber camps for a few years before he got married and settled down as a farmer. As you can probably tell from my name, I have some Swede in my blood, but don't try anything other than english on me!


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 10, 2006)

treeclimber165 said:


> I have somewhat of a dilemma concerning all these newfangled climbing tools. Most of what I have learned in the last 5-10 years about climbing and new gear has been through industry mags and of course the Sherrill catalogue. *When conversing with other climbers in places like this, it seems like EVERYONE uses all this new stuff. But in REAL LIFE, I have only met one climber who uses a split-tail system*, and I climbed twice as fast as him. I still climb with my old-fashioned Karl Kuemmerling belt, never had a 'biner attached to it and probably wouldn't know what to do with one if I had it. I can tie my tautline hitch without looking- one handed. I trust it with my life without even thinking about it. I have seen pics of some of the setups some guys use, and it is a mass of confusion and multiple ropes with multiple attachments. WAY too much stuff for me to worry about. I'll stick with one rope and one locking clip, thank you.
> 
> If I ever could actually work with someone as adept with all this new stuff as you guys seem to be, it might be different.*But in my world, it isn't here. Why does this stuff only exist online and in magazines?*



bumping this thread up, in particular the highlighted qoute.......

i have to agree (highlighted text) with this poster.....i see all sorts of new styles and equipment online and in the discusion baords, BUT i go to the stores or to tree companies (looking for work) and it seems that NO ONE has heard about split-tail climbing, DRT, SRT, Blakes hitch, friction savers, etc etc etc etc etc.......they look at me like i'm mad (yea yea, you can rib me). Even the rock climbers i hang out with when i'm doing SRT ascending and rappelling look at my SRT gear and say " oh that stuff is only for caving..." or "whats that?" or "whats a static line"....

*i go into the local climbing, rope, and gear suppliers and some of them are totally clueless to basic brandnames (YALE, SAMSON, CMI, SMC, WALES etc etc) or they are clueless to the terms (splittail, friction saver etc etc etc etc) and they dont even know where to find stuff like that*.....i find more often than not, that its easier for me to buy online and save the hassle of trying to explain what i'm after in the local gear shops. hell, it took me 3 months (7 years ago) to find a rappel rack in vancouver, no one knew what i was talking about in the climbing shops....by chance i ran into a fire rescue guy that was training and asked where he gets his gear. He pointed me towards a dedicated rescue shop. 

as for arborist gear, i have found a local dealer that is knowledgable, so at least that area is covered.....lol 


*I live in a very large metropolitian center (over 2 million people) and you would think there would be more awareness and knowledge of even the most basic of equipment, techniques and styles......(SRT, DRT etc)...but thats not the case....*

*WHY IS THIS? why do I feel like an outcast because i take the time to research new gear, try out new gear, learn new techniques etc etc?* I told a potential employer about my skills, and they asked "whats that?" - no clue...none....

rant


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## clearance (Aug 10, 2006)

Its OK, SRT, we are just a bunch of inbred retards in BC, I don't know how we get any treework done at all. And how we log, why its just amazing.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 10, 2006)

ROTFLMAO!!!!! :hmm3grin2orange: 

come on Clearance, i'm sure you've come across this too over the years...

lol


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## l2edneck (Aug 10, 2006)

> we are just a bunch of inbred retards


haha i resemble that remark
old school for me my bro uses pulleys to make it easier to lower and zip line to frontyard but me just my hand saw chainsaw ladder lifeline taughtline bowline and receipt book(oh and of course my pen to sign the check):hmm3grin2orange:


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## Climb020 (Aug 10, 2006)

Well I started climbing old school but it only took me about 8 months to begin changing to the newer styles. Now after 2 years of climbing, lots of reading, classes, and following what some of the other guys do like Mark Chisholm my climbing has improved so much.
FASTER
That is the key for me no matter what the cost. Getting the work done faster means more money in your pocket. I might work for someone right now but I plan to do my own thing so this is like try outs. I can foot lock 100' faster then I could hip thrust 50. And I have a lot more energy in the tree.

Where I work I am the demo guy. I buy the new stuff and other guys try it out and see what they think. Got on guy to go from his 8 year old "suicide" saddle to a fancy tree austria. He thought it looked funny but it is much more comfortable.

The key is to go to expo and try the gear there. Asks the sales man, comp. guys, as well as people online what they think. Newer doesn't mean better but it could be safer which is also a plus.

Here is just a few new tools that I think are worth way more then I paid. 
Kond Dual Ascender-After using it I would have paid double what I did because it makes my job much faster.
Tree Austria Saddle- This saddle is very similar to the butterfly. It is the most comfortable saddle I could find after 6 months of looking for one. The closest thing I found to sitting on my sofa.
Geckos II- Very light and as comfortable as spikes can be. After 5 hours in the tree with the one my shins just barely bother me. Using older spike for much shorter periods of time have hurt much worse.

All in all it is what works best for each climber. But most likely I would say that you just haven't tried it or given a newer idea or tool enough of a chance to see what it can do. Not everything is great cause I have plenty of gear I bought that I don't use ort use for the intended purpose because I didn't fit my sytle. One last thing. When I started climb and doing it old school after work I could barely move I was so tired. Now after work I do home and go find 100' oak trees to climb for fun. If work is less work and more fun it is even better.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 10, 2006)

think ya misunderstood me...:biggrinbounce2: I am a gear junkie. I have nothing but the best equipment, and am always adding to it, along with new techniques and lots of training.......*what i meant in my post was*: _"seems like nobody out there is actually using the gear or the techniques....cuz they have'nt heard of it or experienced it"_. Those that i talk to dont want to learn new techniques, they think that their way is the only way and anything else is unheard of.


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## Climb020 (Aug 10, 2006)

My post wasn't directed at you SRT but everyone as a whole. There just is no one way to do things as well as there isn't just one best way to do something. As well all know that each situation is different and should be approached that way. The more tricks in your bag the better off you are gonna be. Like I always climb with my VT hitch but sometimes I have to do the blakes just because of not having 2 set-ups.Just on tree entry there are many ways to go about it and I use each weekly...like body thrust with my VT, body thrust with ascender, SRT, DDRT.

But I do have to give credit to the guys that still do old school. I work with a guy on saturdays that is strightly old school. Doesn't own a krab, hand saw, throw line and many other things. And at times he can out climb me even though he has 20 years on me. But at other times...when there is just one hander 60 feet up what you gonna do? He would climb it and take 30-45 mintues to do when I can just whip out the throwline and within a minuted be done.

I look at things this way. Knowledge is power. Power is money. And who doesn't want to make more money?


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 10, 2006)

ah no worries...


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## TopJimmy (Aug 10, 2006)

When I first started hanging around this site, I never paid attention to the climbing forum. I said that I would never climb a tree (I only trim my own trees and have a 31' scissor lift), however the addictive nature of this site has me thinking about climbing. When I look at the catalogs, the amount of equipment is a little overwhelming. I was going to start ordering equipment, but decided to start with the Tree Climbers Companion. I think that I have come to the conclusion that the novice climber should start with the most basic equipment and become proficient with the basic climbing skills before trying the new equipment. Do you experienced climbers agree? Thanks for the input. If you agree, what would you consider the "Basic Equipment"

Jim


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## Dan R Porter (Aug 10, 2006)

Frans said:


> Simple and Safe is often better.
> 
> You might contact Tom Dunlop. He teaches classes on advanced and basic climbing techniques and I know he has a segment on simple and safe methods...
> 
> ...



I could not agree more. In rock climbing and Tree climbing everyone wants to look cool, look profesional, and make things more complicated then they need to be. Simple setups are less likely to be messed up so simple is safe.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 10, 2006)

In all fairness to the Rock; i think after starting this thread he came around a bit; and even wrote in some of his r-evolution to better climbing practices, hitches, gear that verbalized and pairallelled the doubts, experiences and growth of others.

It is easy to say that all this stuff is unneeded; just do it the old way; don't wade thru the L-earning curve. Some of the stuff i've tried didn't seem to fit, but most did; or in the hitches helped evolve me to another level/ hitch later on.

i'm pleased to report, that these devices and strategies are maid by very serious people; not just those looking to name something or sell it; at least IMLHO.

i've groan to use slings and krab sets for many, many things. But, there was a time when they just sat in the truck; and if it seemed it was worth it, i'd have a 1 or 2 sent up. Of course, the weighing and balancing to determine if they were worth sending up; also entailed the 'cost' of asking someone for them, them finding them, walking back, sending them up etc.; all while everything else was going on. So, mostly they didn't get used much.

It wasn't until i decided and committed they were part of my gear, that i carried up with me all the time; that i really started figuring out the multitudes of uses and flexibility they gave. Sometimes now, i might not take them up (rarely); but at least now i can more fairly determine when i need i might need them or not. Especially after losing the spurs; the sling/krab sets aren't much weight to carry, for all of their uses.

When getting something new, and all excited about it; i'll now use that energy of enthusiasm etc. to throw me thru the newness of using and assessing when i need that device, by using it more than needed. Then fall back into being more realistic etc.

A lot of the newer gear; focuses on technique rather than brute strength to get thru. Just like my gymnastic coach always tried to get me to focus on (technique). Now, i'm extra glad about those lessons too; for as the strength and parts fade; the technique can carry you thru! And if the older or more compromised can reach heights they couldn't with these things; what about the younger; if they'd only slow down enough to take them in and work them long enough to gain these strategies, and add them to their skill and strength set?

Also, if i knew m'Lady was the right one fer me from the beginning; i'd like to say that i'd forsaken all others for her; but then all that too has been part of growth. But, still; i'm glad i didn't just blindly stick with the first girl, 2nd etc.; and am glad that i have the more informed decision through some traveling and frustrations; of knowing and appreciating why i'm with her; that this is what fits for me above all else! My choice of gear and style, has been the same!


Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that:deadhorse:


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## nitwit dolt (Aug 10, 2006)

*New Techniques*

It's quite simple. Tree work is like skinning cats, there is more than one way to do it. If your not constantly looking for a smarter way to do it, your working to hard.

When I first purchased my Pantin, I wore it on every tree. Light weight and easy to use. Never knew when it might come in handy. I rarely use it now, but when I do it sure comes in handy.

It's all about the tools in your tool box. Does your mechinic do all your repairs with a five pound sledge and a role of duct tape? You can tell how handy a guy is by how many pairs of vice grips he has.


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## Jim1NZ (Aug 11, 2006)

Great to see allot of climbers on advanced systems and gear. Go to climbing competitions to see how its all put into practice if your a bit of a skeptic. You wouldn't see this flash gear around at all if it wasn't faster and more efficient!

If i gave Lance Armstrong a bike race on the road and he had a old mountain bike and i had his flash race bike he would still smoke me hands down. Its not about the bike but it helps. Its the same with climbing the flash gear helps allot but the climber has still got to be able to do his job


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## Sirpouralot (Aug 11, 2006)

The Big Hurt said:


> I think that new technology in the equipment we use is crucial for the advancements that have occoured over the years but when I say "why change now" I am referring more to climbing styles and techniques. I am all about better and safer equipment that I currently use but I dont feel a need to use new climbing gadgets that will take time to learn when I can get into trees efficiently as it is. I may end up getting into a tree faster with the new toys but its not worth all of the time I would have to take it slow and low to learn it because my productivity would suffer during that amount of time and I hate being unproductive....its not good for business.



I remember when I was a boy I had a recurve bow and tried for years to hit a deer. I practiced daily with that old recurve all summer in anticipation of the up coming hunt each season only to come home each year empty handed. 

Finally one day someone suggested that I buy a compound bow, next some sights, and soon after that a mechanical release. Next thing you know I am hitting the bullseye every time. No more need to practice all summer, just pull out the bow a few days before the hunting season and take a couple of shots is all that was needed to be ready. I always got my deer too, because I didn't have to spend so much time practicing my shot and had more time to do scouting. 

Over the years I managed to bag several nice bucks and a couple of record book bucks. Still my friends tell me, that I will never be as good as Fred Bear, who only used a straight bow.  

So although the new equipment makes some of us better, it really only enables us to do the things that many before us have already done better, and with out the need to be weighed down with gadgetry.


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## RedlineIt (Aug 11, 2006)

> I live in a very large metropolitian center (over 2 million people) and you would think there would be more awareness and knowledge of even the most basic of equipment, techniques and styles......(SRT, DRT etc)...but thats not the case....
> 
> WHY IS THIS? why do I feel like an outcast because i take the time to research new gear, try out new gear, learn new techniques etc etc? I told a potential employer about my skills, and they asked "whats that?" - no clue...none....



SRT-Tech,

Keep looking for an employer that knows what you're on about, they've got out be out there. I mean you found the arborist's supply shop that knows what you're talking about, and he's got to be selling the good stuff to *someone*, right? I'll assume you mean the shop down on River Road in Van, I've bought stuff there myself, or at least I used to, the outfit I'm with now gets a nice chunky employee discount at Sherrill's  .

The owner of that shop used to run his own tree service untill he got bought up by a big company with green trucks and big bucks, he still knows who is doing what in the tree biz in Van, no ax to grind, might be a good guy to go have a pint with!

Bit of a story of my own SRT, when I moved out to BC I was moving from doing tree work as a small part of my job to tree work full time and they grow 'em BIG on the west coast, so I was ready for a steep learning curve. I had checked out the company I was going to be working for back in central Canada ( It's a big company with green trucks...) and they looked pretty tight, with up-to-date techniques, so I hired on to one of their west coast offices and made the move.

I arrived to find their climbers here still in the stone age, if not quite inbred tards. With my simple split-tail to a Blake's system I was looked at askance as a bit too avant garde. Within a few weeks of my hiring they brought on a kid fresh out of school who tried to take a couple of minutes with everyone gathered around one morning to highlight the advantages of a friction saver. His presentation was literally laughed out of the room not only by the climbers but by the local managers, one of whom loudly declared, "Friction savers are for pussies, let's all be like our new little ?????!"

Well the kid didn't last more than two weeks, and good for him, he got out of there quick. I still needed to learn some big tree removals on spurs so I hung around until I got some of that. Then I looked around.

It didn't take me long to figure out who their competition was. I took a couple of precious days off (new man, no vacation pay) to check them out. One turned out to be just as much an old school "bomb-it-down-fix-it-later" bunch of losers, didn't even bother exploring them, but the other company had climbers swinging through the canopy of a huge old Oak, false crotch here, redirect there, lowering systems to rig out trims over the house, and so I applied.

Once I'd hired on with them, my learning curve really started, the crews had all sorts of gear to aid their work. Kong Ascenders for that guy, Tree Frog gear over there, Petzl ascenders, you name it. Big shot gets traded around among whoever needs it, and rigging for low impact is treated as the ne plus ultra of everything we do.

I showed up with my split-tail on a Blake's and the guys gently told me to get out of the graveyard of old school and amp my climbing up.

I knew I was home.

This company is also hiring, and they had a session for new climbers a few weeks ago to bring some new blood up to speed. This fall we'll pause production for a day to get everyone who shows the desire up to speed on SRT entry.

I'm looking forward to that, and it sound like we could use you.

Good tree companies are out there, but they are rare.

PM me.


Treespyder,

Excellent post that captures the essence of this old original thread. Well done.



RedlineIt


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## clearance (Aug 12, 2006)

Redline, why not just say Davey Tree? I have never ever heard one good thing about Davey in B.C. and not to do with anything you were talking about, other, worse things. Davey=green. Asplundh (who I hear good and bad about)=orange, is it that hard? At least you are honest enough to say you had something to learn about big removals, sounds like you are happy where you are, good for you.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 12, 2006)

opcorn:


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## lync (Aug 12, 2006)

I've been climbing for about 11 years and also started with a tautline and a snap. My main reason for exploring advanced techniques is that this is my second carreer and i'm over 40, I needed to save every bit of energy to make it through the day. i would have to say that using srt is probably the most drastic energy saving change I have made in my style. I owe it all to an old time climber. He climbs with a snap and a tautline, and ascenders. This same guy also used to climb with an old style lanyard where the line is doubled over and a sliding prussic make the adjustment. I convinced him to try my lanyard (VT micropully one hand adjustment). One climb, and he kept mine, and has never given it back.
I think it all comes back to your willingness to learn. Some are set in there ways and are not willing to try optional methods. Some will try something new. You don't know what your missing unless you try it.
corey


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## RedlineIt (Aug 12, 2006)

> Redline, why not just say Davey Tree? I have never ever heard one good thing about Davey in B.C.



Hmmm, I thought reference to a non-sponsoring company name got bot-filtered on this DB. Apparently not. Must be some other DB.

OK

Davey Tree's west coast operations fellate the donkey long, hard, and to the complete satisfaction of the donkey.

Izat betta?  


RedlineIt


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## clearance (Aug 12, 2006)

Pretty good, I've heard nastier from former employees.


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## Climb020 (Aug 12, 2006)

Really Davey, hurd some good things and was going to concider the change guess I'll look else where. But back to the topic. Yes the person needs to be will ing to change and explore. If you have it in you mind that what you do is best then you mentally won't allow other devices to excel for you.


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## Bearclaw (Aug 13, 2006)

I am with SRT-Tech as far as being a gear junkie. I use most of the newer stuff on the market, and it makes life a lot easier, quicker, and it saves me money. (In the long run).


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

Ditto that. It causes me great pain to see the pro's making it harder than it has to be. Double that pain in watching the noobs struggle through the more difficult, traditional methods.


If you only knew how easy it can really be, you would bail on the old-school methods and enjoy new levels of swiftness and efficiency. The fewer limitations your system puts on you, the more time you can dedicate to actual tree care, not just climbing and positioning.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 13, 2006)

I never climbed much at all, but I have a friend in Indiana, who has a decent size tree service in Bloomington. He had a tree service in Geogia, and in Oregon, too, for quite some time. He's good, and he has a lot of experience.

Anyhow, he told be that he hired an arborist, not long ago. Maybe a guy out of England.

My friend said that this new guy is like the 

*"next generation of arborists"*

He said that where it might take him 100 cuts to get a big maple tree down, that this new guy, with new techniques and gadgets, could handle the same tree in half the time, with maybe 40 - 50 cuts, and do it safely.


*"Chop...Chop !!!"*


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## Climb020 (Aug 13, 2006)

Yeah we are out there just waiting to be discovered.

Just this weekend I took down a 40" DBH maple. Had one limb over the house with sky lights. With normal practices I would have had to cut the limb 6 or 7 times. But with a spider leg balance I was able to remove the whole limb all at once. And doing it this way was much easier and safer (for property damage) then tradional methods.

When I was at a Vermeer show I was suprised by how many guys still did things the old way. Even after being showed how much easier and faster new devices are they still said they would never buy it. Things even like a port-a-wrap pay for themselves in a year. Just think about it. They even demoed how easy and fast it was to use on compared to taking a wrap around a tree. A lets not forget about the damage done to the rope from the tree bark.


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## Sirpouralot (Aug 13, 2006)

None of you will ever be as good as Fred Bear no matter how many new toys you haul up into the tree with you. All Fred needs is just his old warn out leather saddle and a 120 feet of hemp!  

No seriously there are some old time guys that would make most of us look like an amateur. I worked with this guy by the name of Ray Dalby back in the 70's who to his credit was the most well studied guy out there. He was always learning and wanting to learn. I last worked with him in the mid 80's when he was nearing 60 yrs of age, and I was still amazed watching him take down this huge story book elm over the primary. He was old school I guess only because he was old and that was all there was. When Dutch Elm disease hit the area of Michigan in the 50's and 60's he did mostly Elm removal for municipality and ran his own business on the side. This is the only guy I ever seen carry a cant hook (peavy) up into the tree with him. He used it to lift the butt end up and over the primary when a rather large section was coming off. He started out in California logging and taking down trees the like that none of us have ever seen. I watched him put a chain and binder on the trunk of a large elm and start back cutting and the tree gently laid over without barber-chairing. Some of you guys come across to cocky with your new found knowledge. There are old school guys out there that could put a big removal on the ground safely before you ever locate all your gear off the truck.

Don't get me wrong knowledge is great, and should be used to advantage, but it still is no replacement to skill. 

Final thoughts. It is good to embrace the new, but don't let go of the old. It would do many of you guys some good to go watch an old logging competition. I think you will be shocked by the level of skill. <Sirpouralot


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## Climb020 (Aug 13, 2006)

Like I said before I give a lot of credit to the old style guys but unfortunatly many of the old school guys don't follow proper safety standards either, or at least the ones I have worked with. Times have changes since the 60's as well as standards for work and safety. I think that is more what it is for the next generation of climbers. It isn't just about being good at what you do but making your job as safe as possible while you are doing it. At least this has been my expierence.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 13, 2006)

I think that the "Next Generation" arborists will demonstrate to the tree care industry, how to take some physical burden out of the work. And that's important.

That in itself, may encourage some good minds to select this trade, who may have taken another path for a profession.


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## Sirpouralot (Aug 13, 2006)

Old school by definition means that which is tried and true. 
New school by definition means exercise extreme caution until proved true through time. A wait and see attitude is usually best.

Older people are usually much more cautious than young people. Just ask your insurance company. An old guy with top hat driving his 66 Ford is considered much safer than a young educated guy fresh out of driving school in his shiny new mustang with his ABS brakes and current seatbelt laws and such.

The reason is experience. An accident happens when something unexpected happens. The more experience you gain and more time you log in the saddle, the less surprises you will see.There are a lot of old loggers and tree guys that die of old age, and with all there fingers, testifying to there safe work habits. There are always going to be some who are unsafe and some who work safe regardless of what the current laws are. 

There are 4 levels of learning.
1 unconscious ignorance
2 conscious ignorance
3 conscious awareness
4 unconscious awareness.

To illustrate: take a guy who never has been on a bicycle. He looks at someone riding and thinks to himself that looks easy. He has no concept yet of balance and how forward momentum is needed. This is unconscious ignorance. Conscious ignorance is when he then gets on the bike and is unable to keep his balance, but now knows it is harder than it first appeared.

Conscious awareness is when he finally is able to keep his balance and make forward progress, but has to keep his mind on his work as his turns and stops are unsteady.

The final level of learning is unconscious awareness. He has such ability that he has his mind focused completely on something else while he is pedaling to his destination. 

It is level 4 and level 2 that produce the most accidents. That is guys just starting out, and old guys who don't keep there mind on what they are doing.

To sum up, it really doesn't matter what kind of bike he is riding, whether it is old or new. you have to be aware of people around you who may be acting in an unsafe manner and it has more to do with the individual than what climbing style or gear he prefers. That is what I have seen to be true with over 30 years in the field.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

Very nicely done Sir Pour.



> Old school by definition means that which is tried and true.
> New school by definition means exercise extreme caution until proved true through time. A wait and see attitude is usually best.




Points well taken. Defining Old School vs New School need more definition than exercise extreme caution. That goes for both schools. As far as climbing arborists certain lines are drawn at how they are different, not how one is better than another, but distinct lines of demarcation. There are gray areas and overlaps here and there, but the major distinctions between new and old school climbing should be spelled out.

What about SRT Tech who was trained in a completely other discipline where friction hitches don't exist? What about tower climbers who enter into tree care? Search and Rescue guys? Firemen? Do you think a SWAT guy throws on a friction hitch to scale doown the side of a building. These guys are coming in with nothing but new school climbing methods. Until they climb with some traditional tree climbers, they may not know that friction hitches even exist. Their methods are tried and true and have been around since the fifties and the advent of synthetic lines. They are current, widely used by all aerial disciplines except us, and I would rate this as tried and true and tested. There are dozens of books written on the subject and tapes and DVDs and training systems gall over the world, all NEW SCHOOL. No books, however, are written on Tree Climbers and new school methods. We're stuck in our own traditions and conventions.

Tree Climbers went with half inch (13 mm) climbing lines and used friction hitches on a 2:1 DdRT system. The rest of the climbing world went to 11 mm (and smaller) and the use of devices, climbing and descending on 1:1 systems controlling friction through the device in front of them.

That's the big line of difference. Some traditional climbers are using 11 mm, but still with the friction hitches; old school methods using new school rope diameter.


Let's classify New School and Old School before we get into the simplest of the simple devices. Here is a start. Help me update what we've got down so far:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

All that's far too vague.



> Using techniques that are not tried and true belong to the foolish school.



I use techniques that are not tried and true. I make them up in some instances. I use devices that I doubt are being used anywhere else. I change devices with the change in moods. I test new friction gear. I will invent it if I have to.




Am I a fool


or am I


an 


Innovator.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

The schools differ in the way we handle friction. And there are differences in gear and school preferences, too, but how we manage friction is at the heart of what differentiates our climbing schools.

This difference then dictates our gear choices and rope choices which are different, school to school.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> If you are making your own devices though I would call that beyond 'new school'.


Well, its necessary to go climb beyond the lip of the galaxy to see what new possibilities there are. Some day we may stumble on a device that is 'ideal'.

Still, new school methods are based in handling friction with something other than a friction hitch. Once you get familiarized with a few different 'new school' devices, they all will share one thing in common; controlling your descent through application of friction on the rope. How they exactly do that may vary, but they all do essentially the same thing, so the result from device to device yields the exact same thing; accurate control of friction using your chosen piece.

I like to explore the nuances of different pieces, and I tend to keep it very basic, very simple and bombproof as possible. I like the variety and trying a few of the hundreds of pieces out there. So many pieces, so little time.

Using devices is so much easier than the friction hitch (old) school. It can be so easy (comparatively) that your jaw may drop.

Friction hitch has what most would consider the one redeeming advantage: You use the same thing to go up as to go down (friction hitch). This is NOT true in the new school, mechanical ranks. Ascenders are used to go up, and you switch over to your descent piece once aloft. Swapping back and forth as needed is one of those 'perceived ' thresholds where a lot of hitch masters would balk at the mere thought of having to go back and forth with seperate tools for ascend and abseil and poo-poo the idea of New School methods before even giving it a fair trial. It's really not that big a deal at all.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 14, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Very nicely done Sir Pour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

That's exactly what I'm talking about. New school can switch between all three styles because simple devices can allow that. You choose the one that serves you the most advantage. Free yourself of the 2:1 imprisonment. Work a 2:1 here and there when it is the best choice. Otherwise, new school is primarily a 1:1 world.


TreeCo said:


> Fool school was a poor choice of words on my part. Fool school for instance would include pulling a climber into a tree with a pick up truck with nothing but his climbing rope over a crotch.


That says nothing of how friction is controlled or overcome, TreeCo. You example is that of assisted (mechanical) hoisting.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 14, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> That's exactly what I'm talking about. New school can switch between all three styles because simple devices can allow that. You choose the one that serves you the most advantage. Free yourself of the 2:1 imprisonment. Work a 2:1 here and there when it is the best choice. *Otherwise, new school is primarily a 1:1 world*. That says nothing of how friction is controlled or overcome, TreeCo. You example is that of assisted (mechanical) hoisting.



you should see my 30:1 Z-rig system :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> The GRCS is a rope winch and a rope bollard in one device and is are the Hobbs. Cutting limbs and rigging so they are pulled upwards against gravity isn't about friction, it's about winching. How about the use of 'spider legs' for balancing loads? That's not friction either.


And you're bringing in examples of rigging into a thread about CLIMBING styles.




> The Big Shot is new school for sure and it's not about friction.


The big shot is a new tool (7 years new), not new school. It gets used on both sides. And it's about *rope setting*, a facet of the climbing process, but again, it is not climbing.


Don't be trying to derail this discussion of diffencess in climbing styles. Stay on topic.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 14, 2006)

Old school, has always boiled-down to doing it the best way possible at a point in time, utilizing all the tools at hand. So the old school survives, only as it evolves, doing it the best way possilbe and using everything at it's disposal. So the next generation of arborists are now the old school.

The old school was knives and spears, then that old school added single shot muskets. By WW II, old school included machine guns. Every generation takes-on the tranfer to itself of the old school.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 14, 2006)

Twenty years ago I saw the first presentation on using a lowering device and a speedline. Don Blair told us at that time to take a bit more time setting up rigging systems and make fewer cuts in the tree. In the long run this saves time. The bigger benefit is that it reduces the risk to the climber in making more chainsaw cuts. In the ensuing 20 years there have been many more additions to the trade that makes work safer and easier. This will keep more arbos healthy longer and in the trees. Their experiences will be handed off to the new climbers who will adopt and adapt the skills for the following generations.

A while ago I started to think of Traditional and Progressive climbers instead of New/Old school. Like someone said, most climbers tend to be a mix of both. Progressive climbers tend to use more up to date, and complex, techniques. Either way, it is very important to constantly educate oneself and be open to new skills.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

I figured there would be debate on what constitutes what side, and there is the biggest risk (though just mental) of leading-edge climbers being classified as 'old school' when they're assuming and thinking they are the newest of the 'new school'. Can you see the stir that might create? Tree Spyder and Dunlap and like 99.9999999999% of all climbing arborists are climbing 'old school'. That's a pretty bold proposal, I must admit. Maybe we should re-term it 'old and new world.

There is progress, though, and we've opened up the debate on a topic that's been touched on, but never really defined. Let me offer another reason why the seperation point between the CLIMBING schools should be placed on *how friction is handled.*

Boiling it down to the least common denominator, technical tree climbing (when you have to climb with tools to do a job in the air) is composed of going up, hanging, and coming down. 

Let's say, both schools have ascending figured out in that they both can overcome friction completely. In ascent, friction is _completely_ overcome, you go past it. Ascending and hanging are almost not really about friction and we could term this subspecialty area _rope clamping_ as this is what it is, whether using a mechanical device or a hitch. The only thing left, then, is descending (abseil) and work positioning where friction is controlled and modulated to safely get you around and doing what you do. Handling and fully controlling your position while on rope through the application of pressure, causing friction, is the only thing left and is the means by which we tree care guys are able to do what it is we do. 




This is climbing in it's purest, distilled form; Up, down, all around. We're sharing an unprecedented moment where (  ) we are in a CLIMBING forum site in the CLIMBING section in a thread about CLIMBING and we're actually on-topic and talking about CLIMBING. I think we should give ourselves a hand!!!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 14, 2006)

Um, uhhhhhhhh friction is good if it keeps ya from falling; it is fighting it to climb i think ye speak of!

i don't think we will ever overcome friction completely; for one of the laws is that there can be no perpetual motion machine/ at every interchange of force there must be a degradation/loss. This we can usually say is friction, with a byproduct of heat released to the atmosphere. In the big picture, all energy coming from Sun, reflected, stored thermally, changed into growth, stored that way etc.; upon breaking down or incurring friction; releases the heat energy back to atmosphere to maintain balance of incoming to outgoing yin/yang etc.

i think it is okay to study rigging here too, as i think of climbing as rigging myself around. Then in rigging try to remember all that, and how the load feels as i felt on the end of a line; what pulled, stretched and steered how etc.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> i don't think we will ever overcome friction completely.


Hanging on the rope is a case of overcoming friction. Static, non-movement on a rope quickly equilibrates to a state of non-friction (no motion, no friction, no heat generated). 


I'm glad you bring the physics into it, Spidey. Descent (abseil, rappel) is applied physics. Gravity is at the root of all of this.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 14, 2006)

dontcha mean "overcoming GRAVITY" as opposed to overcoming friction?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> dontcha mean "overcoming GRAVITY" as opposed to overcoming friction?


Gravity doesn't change. The friction we use does. I guess you're right. You would modulate friction to overcome not gravity, but the effects of gravity.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Well that is a bold number!


99.9999999..whatever % is clearly an exaggeration. Let's just for fun say 99.9%. That would be 999 in a thousand tree climbers who use friction hitches and / or tress cords as opposed to a mechanical device. I would not doubt that for a moment.


I am sorry about the exaggeration. If we're trying to define and quantify in any scientific sort of way, exaggerations are not acceptable. My bad.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 14, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Gravity doesn't change. The friction we use does. I guess you're right. You would modulate friction to overcome not gravity, but the effects of gravity.




yea i meant "effects of gravity", vs gravity itself...


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## beowulf343 (Aug 14, 2006)

You know what I love about this argument? In just the 11 years i've been climbing, i've seen some drastic changes. I remember when a split tail and a blakes was pretty much cutting edge. And i'll bet that in 10-15 years, the techniques that the "new school" climbers are using will be considered "old school." And what's even funnier, I'll bet that 10-15 years from now probably 60% of tree climbers will still be using a snap and taughtline because it's cheap, it's easy, and it works.


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## Climb020 (Aug 14, 2006)

In a true sense we all climb old school. But we can concider it new school because it is a newer device. Let me show in a side by side.
OLD/ NEW:
Steel Rope Snap/ Aluminum Rope Snap: Same thing just different material. Right.
1/2" Safety Blue/ 11mm Blaze: Does the same thing as a functioning climbing rope.
3 strand with prussik lanyard/ Grillion: Used to position a climber in the tree.

In truth we all climb the same. Just the material that is used more now is different and in cases safer. You can't have a new school with out an old school to compare it to. 

All the new equipment made is lighter. That is a big selling point I think for a lot of climbers. But an old schooler might climb with his heavy steel snap and 1/2" line but that is it. The new school guys got all the ultra light gear but bring twice as much up into the tree and I am one of them. So I would conclude that there are two differences. One which I said and that is that climbing is more safe. Secondly is the may one enters or decendsfrom a tree. 99% of us still use some sort of hitch to move laterally in a tree.


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## 1CallLandscape (Aug 14, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> In truth we all climb the same. Just the material that is used more now is different and in cases safer. You can't have a new school with out an old school to compare it to. .




exactly..... personally i climb "old school" i learned from my father that has been climbing for 30 years and is still doing it at close to 50 now never and accident climbing old school ( knock on wood).. he taught me to always trust your gear to the fullest ( whethewr it is new or old) and replace worn out ropes, saddles etc. when in need. 

i feel that you should stick to what your comfortable with but at the same time expiriment with different techniques and style. maybe not trying these on a huge tree , on an easy one. just like trying a new cut, dont do it on a bad tree. stay within your comfortability range but, always try to push your self to new limits.

-mike


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## woodchux (Aug 14, 2006)

I've always considered "old School" as climbing on taughtline, natural crotch , with no split tail or other "extras".


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 15, 2006)

The imbalance betwixt gravity forces and friction is motion; or:
Gravity Forces = Friction Forces + Fall Forces.

So hanging on hitch/ not moving is Zer0 Fall Forces; so Friction Forces must equal Gravity Forces.

The duality of equal/ opposites assures balance in all things (physically and philosophically). The 1st physicists, were the philosophers; as 1 body of knowledge!

Orrrr something like that; okay, okay....:taped:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 15, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> So hanging on hitch/ not moving is Zer0 Fall Forces; so Friction Forces must equal Gravity Forces.


Yup.




Spidey said:


> The duality of equal/ opposites assures balance in all things (physically and philosophically). The 1st physicists, were the philosophers; as 1 body of knowledge!




They were a lot of times the mathmaticians, too. An appllying the strictest, most precise methods available to _quantify_ and measure everything in the physical world and beyond, they came under one classifying name category of professionals known as _scientists_.

The philosophers, as Spidey points out, were the standout dudes of their time. They had already DONE something so important as to warrant them the respect of being atop their culture's intellectual packing order. If the Philosopher had come up through the ranks of education and basically aces everything, at some point the 'thinker' must go beyond what is known and learn about the unknown.

Whatever new the scientist learns, it is shared with fellow scientists and scientists in the greater scientific community for review. If the new knowledge is beneficial to many, that information is moved to wider audiences. Transfer of knowledge defines 'teaching'. Scientists, by definition then, are teachers.


This may seem long-winded, and slightly off-topic, but it _does_ apply to us, I've just forgotten how at the moment how.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 15, 2006)

Oh, OUR main dude scientist. In the case of CLIMBING, our main dude scientist is not Dr. Alex Shigo. Tell em about Sir Isaac Newton, Schpidey.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 15, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> The imbalance betwixt gravity forces and friction is motion; or:
> Gravity Forces = Friction Forces + Fall Forces.
> 
> So hanging on hitch/ not moving is Zer0 Fall Forces; so Friction Forces must equal Gravity Forces.
> ...



pass the Advil...i gots me a migraine.......


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 16, 2006)

Hey SRT,

In time you'll understand Spydey-speak  It makes sense once you program your tricorder 

Being called an Old School Climber doesn't have a negative connotation but I question the definition. When I ascend I rarely use anything but SRT, one of three different systems depending on access height. At times I'll work the whole tree using SRT techniques. How is a tautline tied? When was the last time I used anything but a cord or mechanical device for a friction hitch, not the tail of my rope. 

There are plenty of definitions of Old/New or Trad/Progressive but none are agreed upon. Being open to new ideas and techniques is a pivot point for me. At least consider the progression of our craft. We've all seen car mechanics that have fallen by the wayside because they stopped learning about their craft when carbs became electronically controlled.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 16, 2006)

There is that nostalgia factor. I still use the distal just because it is a cool hitch and should be part of our repertoir. It can be used in this simple personal rigging scenario; an old school method used to set up a new school 11 mm SRT.




Tom said:


> When I ascend I rarely use anything but SRT, one of three different systems depending on access height. At times I'll work the whole tree using SRT techniques. How is a tautline tied?


And I use ONLY SRT techniques; static line whether SRT or DRT, the rope is treated essentially the same, so swapping between single or double rope is instantaneous and requires no gear changeover. It goes more according to your mood, do you feel like climbing single or double. How was the bigshot? Poor trace?, go SRT. Good overall parallel rope set, go double. New school can decide in the moment on which, for whatever reason. Which will serve you best, given your conditions?


> When was the last time I used anything but a cord or mechanical device for a friction hitch, not the tail of my rope.


You're describing a 2:1 splittail system, against a 2:1 use-the-tail-of-your-rope. That is old school against old school. Throw in a VT hitch and all asoorted accessories and you still have a fancied-up 2:1, friction in two places old school system.

2:1 systems also define old school. Again, friction is at the center of it. 2:1 is how it's been done for at least since the beginning of time. It's the next natural step above a Prussik, but 2:1 systems, for whatever advantage(s) they serve are _obliterated_ by the fact that they are 2:1 mechanical advantage systems. I call it mechanical _disadvantage_.


In 2:1 systems you create a dynamic state with the rope: the rope you're on is in motion, moving over top a limb, and moving through the hitch. Friction is in two places, both somewhat inconsistent to each other depending on conditions, climber weight, texture of the bark at the tie-in point. THen we get into the wear and tear on the rope, and the ethicalness of whether or not to use a friction saver or a cambium saver and we don't have to go into the heaviness and bulkiness of 13 mm lines.

2:1 systems are archaic. They are living fossils. If there should be a clear line of distinction between schools it should be the 99.9% 2:1's to the .1% one-to-oners. Or call it if you like, dynamic system v. _static system. New school climbs on 1:1. From purely the standpoint of physics, 1:1 systems require so much less energy overall._


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## Bakes5 (Aug 16, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> 99.9999999999% of all climbing arborists are climbing 'old school'.



Can you even have 99.9999999999% That would mean there would have to be about 1,000,000,000,000 (Roughly translated...a thousand billion) climbing arborists out there (only one of which would be climbing new school)

You probably mean 99.9999% which is still probably a little high if you really think about it


Don't bother responding...I'm just messin 

Later

Bakes


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 16, 2006)

^ ah the heck with it...ima taking my vacation at the advil factory.....:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 16, 2006)

TM,

Help me understand your New/Old split...

Would this be right...?

Old is anyone climbing on a traditional, DdRT system? No matter what the configuration is?

New is then SRT...? 

If that's correct then I think that the number of New climbers is statistically insignificant.

BTW...when I climb trad I use a brand new Rope Guide, Blaze, distal using HRC, custom slack tender and have my Pantin on 95% of the time. Pretty complicated kit for an old school climber


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## moss (Aug 16, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Hey SRT,
> 
> In time you'll understand Spydey-speak  It makes sense once you program your tricorder



We're lucky to have TreeSpyder tapping into the outer (or inner) spheres of load physics and knot dynamics and bringing it to the light of day.

Just to add to the old school vs. new school conundrum you also have minimalist vs. maximalist. Get's complicated, have to start using charts and diagrams to map it all out.

I'm waiting for a revival movement of the pre-old school climbing techniques, kind of like the Civil War reenactment people.
-moss


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> ...when I climb trad I use a brand new Rope Guide, Blaze, distal using HRC, custom slack tender and have my Pantin on 95% of the time. Pretty complicated kit for an old school climber


I would say, yes, that is grossly overcomplicated, as well as being a 2:1 system. Why do 'progressive' climbers steer toward making things more complicated than they need to be? The poor noobs have such a hard time with these old school systems.

I will tell you why. 

Because they're difficult, not difficult to learn, but difficult to use. You work within the limitations of the system and you get used to it and it becomes 'normal'. But normal is only normal within our ranks. It's not 'wrong' in any way, just harder than it has to be.

A 2:1 system makes it harder to footlock, for two reasons. These are physical reasons, not something I am making up. 

First, on a 2:1, your feet are dealing with a single rope, even though we term it a doubled rope method. Single rope is harder to footlock than a doubled line, not so much for the experienced dude, well, actually is just is. Beginner or veteran, footlocking a single line is harder, and even more so the thinner the line gets. Otherwise Tommy wouldn't be needing a foot ascender (pantin).

Second is the 2:1 mechanical disadvantage. If you were hoisting a piano up the side of a building to a third floor window, a 2:1 system might work well for you. Or purely for a climber's descent, gravity itself helps overcome the 2:1 workings. But _ascending_ on 2:1 ??? How innately frustrating is this? You full two meters of line past your feet and have ascended ONE METER. You spend twice the motion to get the same distance as a 1:1 system. Personally, I can't see how this is even acceptable. Adding in a critical friction note, your friction hitch is designed to create _friction_. It doesn't care if you're going up or down. Friction on the way up ADDS RESISTANCE, making the effects of gravity that much more difficut to work against. Just a little friction on a 2:1 on the way up and your ascent is misery. Advanced climbers know and understand this so they modify and tune their hitches, seek out new hi-tech fiber tress cords and split tails and modify the hitches with pulleys and slack tenders and dog clips and you diminish the friction somewhat on the way up, _but you're still on a 2:1 system._ 


Please, someone, call me crazy if something here is not adding up.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 17, 2006)

You're crazy... You and I are on different roads. Please don't take this reply as a rant or an attack. I'd rather discuss our different paths.

*I would say, yes, that is grossly overcomplicated, as well as being a 2:1 system. 

No more than using this medium to communicate rather than snail mail to communicate. Each works but would we even consider having this discussion via snail mail?

Why do you consider it 'grossly overcomplicated'? Many of the climbers at the ITCC used similar, or more complicated, systems. This past year I saw many climbers using similar systems in chapter TCC. Even though we only see the climbers from the tip of the iceberg [compared to a complete view of the climbers in the industry] at comps, those climbers seem to be the ones dedicated to climbing as a life and choose to make that as easy on their bodies as possible. 

*Why do 'progressive' climbers steer toward making things more complicated than they need to be? 

Define 'need'...

*The poor noobs have such a hard time with these old school systems.

Noobs as in new climbers? I've taught people to climb and integrated higher performance tools along the way. No one learns by using natural crotch climbing or not using a split tail. I have taught people to enter climbing a few steps from the most basic techniques. They understand the simplicity of basic rope climbing without having to start their education there. Instead of having to unlearn how to ride a bike with training wheels my Dad worked right next to me for a little while and I could ride a bike by myself. 

...*but difficult to use. 

Define difficult...remember, incremental teaching. Walking stairs is difficult for an infant but not you and I.


*But normal is only normal within our ranks. 

We are talking to fellow arbos not 'civilians' right? Right now I'm watching a show on TV about wrecking buildings. Three brothers who operate wrecking balls to smash buildings are knocking an apple off the top of a traffic cone. The ball weighs 13 tons. They did it but that's not normal for me 

*First, on a 2:1, your feet are dealing with a single rope, even though we term it a doubled rope method. 

You're missing the nomenclature. A traditional climbing system is DdRT or Doubled Rope Technique since the climbing rope is 'doubled' or draped over the limb. There is an active thread discussing nomenclature on t r e e b u z z 

Jepson calls what you're describing 'footlocking the tail' I believe.

*Single rope is harder to footlock than a doubled line

At first...but I've seen climbers make the transition to SRT and the learning curve is short and shallow. In a very short time they are FLing SRT as good as they did previously on a doubled rope.

*Otherwise Tommy [who are you talking down to?] wouldn't be needing a foot ascender (pantin).

If you're talking to me...I wear the P[antin] to make my life easier and not to wear out my joints. Using the P to ascend takes much less energy but the most important reason is that I use the P so that I limit the amount of time that I have to footlock. FLing is not a good ergonmically. The way that it puts stresses on most of the joints in the body will catch up to people over time. It already has for some of the climbers that I know who have been FLing for years. Talk with a physical therapist or better yet, have them look at how you ascend a rope by FLing and see what they say. The ones that I've talked with have all rolled their eyes and suggested that I make an appointment with them to start rehab. 

*Second is the 2:1 mechanical disadvantage. 

I only footlock the tail of my rope for short, in-tree, ascents. By planning my climbing route carefully I can descend via a 'controlled fall' instead of having too much yo yo climbing.

*Please, someone, call me crazy if something here is not adding up.

We need to climb together some time so that we understand each other's system better. Do you think that I use DdRT for my primary ascent? That would be seriously old school. Do I climb without using some kind of false crotch? Occasionally, if that's the best means at the moment.

A while ago another poster on one of the arbo forums defined old/new trad/progressive. They said that a progressive, my term, has a full, up to date, complement of skills and techniques. They pick the best for each scenario.


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## Ryan Cafferky (Aug 17, 2006)

Very well said Tom.

Versatility and open mindedness is the best way to stay at the forefront of this business. Knowing how to use the newest techniques and when to actually use them is the key to being a "new school" climber.

There are times when the true SRT system works well and there are times when it doesn't. I would like to see the system you are using so we all can learn it and put it in our bag of tricks.

My SRT system for decending is usually a Gri gri but occasionally I will use an I'D. They are both wonderful for that because they can easily switch from down to up but I don't feel they are the most efficient for every tree.


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## xtremetrees (Aug 17, 2006)

If you consider yourself "new school" you are throwballing every removal you do. Thats high speed technique. Hooa! safety pratice as well.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 17, 2006)

i think that just by its definition, progressive techniques are a subjective and timely set of strategies. What is new, in one part of the globe, is old in another, what works for one- is hard for another, what is new to an individual his neighbor has been writing about for 5+ years; what is new and progressive today, will be the building blocks of what is new and progressive tomorrow etc. i've always looked to mountain/rescue for 40 year old, tried and true strategies for brand knew tree strategies, myself.

Progressive is cutting edge, leading into the unknown; generally by feel and heart; knowing there must be a better place; than the present plateau. What one man, or group adds to the pile constituting that present plateau in their passing; not the end statemeant of finality to the science. But some other's beginning, as they have now been handed the relay baton.

In total; Height of climb X 1xWeight of climber = height of climb x 2 x climber's weight/2; same amount of work units; but friction adding some to the second total(there is no perpetual motion machine; thus every force exchange must incur the cost of a force loss). But, that might be best choice, depending on other variables; like power range of climber, distance that power must be exerted/ maintained over, rope stretch SRT; harder to stay inline/ unleveraged in SRT etc. vs. amount of friction. 



As to crossing philosophy to physics; each is just trying to understand the Nature of things. Our imagery of wise olde martial art monks contains this also i think; understanding philosophy through motion and back again. Same as early philosophers and physicists being the same person. Positive/ Negative Charges, Male/ Female sexes, Yin/Yang philosophies etc. all in their fields being the duality of equal and opposites expressed in physics promising balance in all.

i've quipped before that with trees being the largest, stiffest, tallest, heaviest, but elastic; with long lives etc.; that the first physicists must have done tree werk. Tom came back about Newton and the apple; Sir Isaac Newton being the the most influential physicist ever, whose discoveries are what we base all machines on(from 5 base machines trading manipulations of distance and force); and Einstein followed well. Sir Francis Bacon that i quote in sig, probably the first quotable as we know it.


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## Climb020 (Aug 17, 2006)

Tree Machine, it isn't that mine or other climbers systems are over complicated it is just that we are use to it and others that don't understand think it is complicated. Anything that you don't know is complicated wouldn't it be? Maybe you can change complicated to safe. I have hurd of guys, as well as myself, that will backk up their back up.

I climbed today a little old school and I couldn't stand it. I needed 2 tie in points and only have 1 prussik cord on me for my VT so I had to use the tail from my rope to make a blakes. I kept trying to do it with one hand but I didn't have a slack tender. What a PITA. I feel sorry for the guys that climb old school. Half of the guys I have worked with I have gotten to change into newer climbing knots and such. They see that in their older age they would rather doing it as easy as possible.

Would love to get a bunch of guys/gals that climb old and new school and see what can be learned from both. 

Also for those that rec. climb like myself and Tom what style do you use? The reason I ask is cause they are just doing it for fun so the less work the do the more fun it will be. So most likely they found what works the best just on climbing. Well I will give one vote for new school.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2006)

*I would say, yes, that is grossly overcomplicated, as well as being a 2:1 system.


Tom said:


> You're crazy... You and I are on different roads.
> 
> No more than using this medium to communicate rather than snail mail to communicate. Each works but would we even consider having this discussion via snail mail?
> 
> ...


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2006)

*continued...*

TM: *Otherwise you wouldn't be needing a foot ascender (pantin).

Tom: ...I wear the P[antin] to make my life easier and not to wear out my joints. Using the P to ascend takes much less energy but the most important reason is that I use the P so that I limit the amount of time that I have to footlock. FLing is not a good ergonmically. The way that it puts stresses on most of the joints in the body will catch up to people over time. It already has for some of the climbers that I know who have been FLing for years. Talk with a physical therapist or better yet, have them look at how you ascend a rope by FLing and see what they say. 

TM: I had 16 weeks of physical therapy last year from an injury having nothing to do with climbing, however the resultant broken leg could affect my tree ascents for the rest of my life. Months later, one of my first jobs was for (you guessed it) my physical therapist. We had talked long and strong in therapy over those initial weeks about footlocking and he was there to witness the first ascents. This was an area of great concern, but there was no problem whatsoever, nor is there now (thankfully). Why? because, as you say Tom, you want to spend as little time footlocking as possible. 

TM *Second is the 2:1 mechanical disadvantage. 

TM: Which means you get to spend _twice_ as much time footlocking upward to get to the same point. This is the point entirely. The Pantin is simply there to keep you from having a 'miss' and losing your momentum and weighting and binding your hitch. It achieves the SAME END RESULT as footlocking, it just does it in a different manner. You can stand on the pantin to rest instead of sitting back in your harness and resting properly. Tom, you understand the dynamics. I'm surprised you're defending it.

Tom: I only footlock the tail of my rope for short, in-tree, ascents. By planning my climbing route carefully I can descend via a 'controlled fall' instead of having too much yo yo climbing. 

TM; Me too, as well as probably most of us.

*Please, someone, call me crazy if something here is not adding up.

We need to climb together some time so that we understand each other's system better. Do you think that I use DdRT for my primary ascent? That would be seriously old school. Do I climb without using some kind of false crotch? Occasionally, if that's the best means at the moment.

TM: Tom, I understand your system(s) and rope guides and friction savers and hitches, pantins, split tails, pulleys, slack tending and all the other 2:1 accesories, extras, to make a comparatively difficult system more complex. I've been keeping an eye on these arbo systems (And caving, rock climbing, military, firefighting and S.W.A.T.) for a long time. In fact, you're closer than most anyone I know to truly climbing new school, but you keep falling back on the hitch system and 2:1 methods even though I know you've used every new hi-priced device out there. It's because thats how most (arbo's) are approaching things so that's where we gravitate toward. Nothing wrong with this. It's just that if we're looking for a simpler, more straight-forward system, the means already exist. It's breaking out of the 2:1, friction-in-two-places, mindset.

Originally Posted by Tom Dunlap: A while ago another poster on one of the arbo forums defined old/new trad/progressive. They said that a progressive, my term, has a full, up to date, complement of skills and techniques. 

TM: Full and up to date could then mean if even a small group has what they consider full and 'up to date', all the rest of the arbo climbing community, without those full and up-to-date methods then is _not_ progressive?

I think we all use a blend. But just because I'm not setting an access line and running my lifeline off the access line, does that mean I'm still in the dark ages?? I do study what's out there and I keep coming back to "Why do they make it more and more complicated? A noob would look at some of these 'progressive' entry sytems and the complexity would boggle the mind. They will shake their heads and go back to their trusted Blakes or Distal because it was what they learned, what they know, what they're comfortable with. That is OK. Old school is tried and true, trusty and comfy. But that comes with intrinsic limitations.


My bottom line is, there are systems out there that are simpler, just as safe, as easy to learn, easier to use, less complicated, more boiled down, less parts, less steps in the process. Doesn't have to be ergonomicaly incorrect. Can be much more swift.

I'd love to climb with you, Tom, but you'll need to show me progressive techniques in 1:1 methods for me to be at all impressed. Show me some ways of handling friction I haven't seen. I come to TCIA shows. I watch climbing videos. I visit the forum sites and enter into discussion. I occasionally watch local tree climbers climb. I'm always open to seeing a better way. The split tail was innovative when it came about, as well as the VT but little else has happened in 2:1 methods since, and even less in SRT, though I applaud your work, and the others who've contributed to the tide of SRT.  Special commending goes to those who've tried SRT with a friction hitch; to this I say 'old school SRT'. It may be possible, but why even go there? Why make it harder than it has to be?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2006)

TreeCo, I am a small fish in a puddle. I'm nobody. I don't mingle with other tree guys here locally. I just do my work. The only arborist community I know is online here and in Europe.


But as far as the bigger pond, yea. It exists. Some fish are bigger or faster than others, but they all pretty much swim in the same school.



I am really appreciating that no one is taking my contributions here as criticisms toward traditional tree climbing. I've been carrying this stuff around for a long time. Years ago at Arboristsite this conversation would get shot down because climbers so vehemently and passionately defended their hitch systems. It was almost like I was an outsider trying to infiltrate and pollute some sacred space. I would just shut up and go back to work.

Now, at least, there seems to be some willingness to at least listen. That in and of itself is progressive in my book. You don't need to climb with methods used by other aerial disciplines, but it does help to understand them.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 18, 2006)

All right...it's taken some typing but we have things defined and clear now.

It seems like your split for new/old is SRT or DdRT. Is that true? If so, then I can see how you feel like close to no one is 'new'.

Personally, when I ascend I use SRT. The Frog system is my current fav. In some trees I leave the chest ascender and Pantin on for the whole climb. The handle ascender w/foot loop get stashed. 

I've spent some time trying to find a hitch that will work for ascent and descent on SRT. This is a challenge. After using a number of hitches with different cords I've come to the conclusion that another road needs traveling. 

To get the right friction/slide characteristics there will either be a tool that resembles the Unicender [google it....] or a combination of rope and hardware. Something along the lines of these examples:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

FWIW...if I teach students who will go out into the industry they start using a FC from Day 1. They use a split tail with an closed friction hitch. After a while I go backwards and teach them how to climb with only a rope, no snap or biner to attach to their saddle. Very little time is spent here, this is more a look back but don't stare sort of lesson. They do need to know how to climb if all they have is a rope. 

If I've had an employee who will only climb with me I start them on SRT ascent then switch to DdRT for descent/work. When we work together I have the luxury of setting up the teachable moments.


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## 046 (Aug 18, 2006)

Tom, could you kindly post pictures of your current setup? SRT and double

Treemachine, could you kindly post picture of your current SRT system? 

I highly respect both of your opinions...

Thanks for sharing,


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 18, 2006)

046,

I'm on the road now and my the photo editing software that I can use isn't on this laptop.

If you go to:

http://www.onrope1.com/index.php?mode=store&submode=showitem&itemnumber=f40

you'll see a good illustration of the Frog System.

I use a small CMI handled ascender for my upper. There's a cord connecting the upper and my front D-ring. Hanging from the upper is an adjustable footloop from Sherrill. The chest ascender is connected to my bridge using a small stainless steel screw link. This is a nice unit, about 1.75" long and rated to 6k#. To keep the chest ascender upright I made a shoulder strap using 1" flat webbing and a plastic friction buckle. A non-locking bent gate biner clips to a gear loop on the back of my saddle.

Like I said, the Pantin stays on my foot most of the time.

At the 2006 ITCC Ronnie Eppel used a Frog System to ascend for his Master's Challenge climb. It was fun to be in the middle of a crowd and hearing all of the exclamations. Many people had no clue what he was doing. his ascent was close to the tree so it looked like he had crampons on and was front-pointing up the tree. Not the case though.

My DdRT kit is like I described earlier. All of the components, except my slacktender are readily available.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2006)

What's a slacktender? The systems I use don't require anything like that. Nor chest harnesses, footloops or any of the connecting hardware. I'll bet the 6K rated quickling could be used as a friction controller, though. See Storrick's site under 'Tube and Belay devices' if you don't know what I mean.

BTW, I'm not knocking the frog system or any of Tom's setup. I just shy away from more involved systems unless they're needed (which, apparently is never).

I use a Kong dual ascender on the way up, whether doubled rope or single rope. It is backed up by an easily removable bar that creates no additional friction and keeps the rope captive within the shell, even if the ascender cam were to fail. I don't like seperate ascenders for tree work. You're either going up a single rope, or up a doubled rope and the dual ascenders will do both. Since I flip between systems, sometimes during the same climb, the duals are essential for the versatility.

I work off the ascenders on the way up, either with a Silky, the chainsaw, or pole pruners. I try to always follow the guideline of being tied in twice (sinking a flipline) before cutting anything.


Coming down???? It varies a lot, from mood to mood, week to week, SRT to DRT and what I've found available. I've tried a lot of things, simple things, and they all do about the same job with minor variations between them.

I have not gotten into the complex devices, like the unicender or really anything that costs over $30. I explore the easy ones, the basics. A number of them you will find at Storrick's site as he has the most complete collection known to man. There are a couple, actually one in particular that I offered Dr Storrick about two years ago, but he never got back with me. It didn't fit any of his categories.

Anyway, having studied these things judiciously (I've easily been to Storrick's site dozens of times) and having used a good many of them, the thought that plays through again and again while using is 'How is this device different then the last? What are it's limitations with regards to tree climbing? Could the device be modified to be more ideal? What would it take to overcome the limitations? How could one device cover all the requirements?' 

Sometimes a device is what it is, and does what it does. The device could be simplified, but can't be made to do more than it does. I'll use it, learn it, understand it, and toss it in the gear box. You don't stick with a piece that does less for you than something previous.


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## xtremetrees (Aug 18, 2006)

I appreciate you guys effort. Time is money and in our case its doctors pay, I'm a noob 19 months in business and I can command a 200 an hr wage.

So all this time you folks contribute to threads, post thought, experience, tested techinigues, I appreciate because I know how valuable your time is and you take that time and give to me.

This proves that being a C.A. is mostly a vol. esxperience. Most scoff at the idea of altruism but we know it may save a climbers life in the future as they slum your post.

I waited for 3 years for petzl to come out with the petzl shunt, a double rope rope grab to replace my two wrap prusic and still I have not purchased one.
I think that the two verses one rope grab mechanical device is much better thanks TM for enlightening me with your time tested technique. but again. lol


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## xtremetrees (Aug 18, 2006)

Tom said, "I've spent some time trying to find a hitch that will work for ascent and descent on SRT. This is a challenge. After using a number of hitches with different cords I've come to the conclusion that another road needs traveling. "
Humm, very interesting.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 19, 2006)

'Slack tender' is another, more generic, name for the pieces of gear that people put below their friction hitch to take up the extra rope. A long time ago I quit using a pulley and found a $5 dog leash snap that works at about the 95th percentile compared to using a pulley and snap. I'll give up the 5% efficiency to simplify my kit. Dropping a snap doesn't cost much, dropping even a cheap pulley does.

It's interesting to read, "...I just shy away from more involved systems unless they're needed (which, apparently is never)." This sounds very dismissive. You might not find that they're never needed but a lot of rope workers do.

Footlocking ropes for years, some shorter years than others, is not good for anyone's body. Has anyone talked with a sport's therapist, physical therapist of an ergonomic specialist? All of the ones that I've talked to have shared insights about how bad footlocking is for our bodies. When I talk with these specialists about trees, they listen to me because this is my area of expertise. When they talk about their area of expertise I listen with as much respect. After hearing the same message from many specialists I came to the conclusion that FLing needs to be reduced and modified. Using a Pantin is one of the easiest ways to reduce wear and tear. 

TM...

CAn you describe or post a picture of the bar that you use to back up your ascenders?

What are the under $30 devices that you're using? Sharing your successes would be really nice. 

A couple of friends of mine who work in Germany had the good fortune to cross paths with "the" Mr. Bachmann. He saw them working a tree job in the rain and stayed around to watch. When they were on the ground he walked up to talk about their climbing systems. Bachmann was VERY intrigued about how arbos using friction hitches. We have become a repository of archane uses of rope friction. Bachmann is very excited to see how arbos are developing systems that use friction hitches in a unique way. We're the only rope industry that uses rope on rope friction systems for descending...and with a great safety record. Expect to hear more about this chance encounter.

After talking with my friends we all agreed that the likely future of arbo SRT will be some variation of combining a friction hitch and a chunk of metal. What it will look like is for an arbo to discover. Like I said, the Unicender has changed the path. In time, something like that will have the best chance of becoming 'normal', not just for arbos but for all working rope technicians.


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## Stumper (Aug 19, 2006)

Tom, You kicked up a rabbit that I would like to chase.....When are we goingto dump footlocking out of the TCCs? Th epractic eis archaic, unhealthy, and unused by many arbos except for competition. Since the comps are supposed to reflect work practices the footlock should go away.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 19, 2006)

Yeah!!! I couldn't agree more. Cavers have rope walking [running???] competitions at their conferences. One time I read the times and was blown away! They climb much higher than 15 meters too. My recollection is that it is almost as fast vertical as it would take to run on the ground. 

Some other SRT access converts were talking about an event like this for TCC. After brainstorming the conclusion would be to have the climber start out not wearing their saddle and the ropewalking system off the rope. Time would start, the climber would enter the ring, install their system, put the saddle on and climb the rope to a bell. How much interest would there be in having a demo event at chapter TCC.

Let's not get started on changing aerial rescue event in the TCC to look more like what a real rescue should look like. That is fodder for a separate thread.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 19, 2006)

I really appreciate the replies and acknowledgements, especially that time is money. I am possibly the worlds slowest typer. Yesterday when I finished my post here it was after 11:00am. My morning was shot and all income opportunity lost. I'm not cryin about it. It has happened hundreds of times over the years, but thanks for the understanding.

In fact, Elizabeth loses a lot of time with me over my being here and we've agreed that I will contribute to no more than two threads at any one given point in time. She says I'll choose what I share with you guys and focus and do a better overall job.... and be less likely to disappear into the basement not to be seen for the rest of the night. Smart girl.


Anyway, this is one of my two threads. I chose it because of the title, new climbing styles vs old. There's always gonna be a 'black sheep' in the family and I'm learning I'm more black than most. I figured there MUST be some other hardware-based arborists, but I'm not so sure. Treeguy 165 was interested enough to bring up the topic in August 2002 and SRT Tech resurfaced the thread, 4 years later July 2006 (current). There now seems to be at least a minimum of interest, or at least distant intrigue and as long as you keep asking questions, I'll hang in and offer what I know.

For right now, though, I have appointments starting in 10 minutes. Bye for now.... but keep talking and bringing up your thoughts!


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## Ekka (Aug 19, 2006)

Shish, took a while to read this one.

Hey TM, please post a pic of your device for working off if it is not a hitch and cost less than $30.

I was thinking Lockjack and Gri gri but they're way dearer. 

I believe you have a device that you climb up and down on, it suffices as a work positioning device, so not a figure 8.

Cheers


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## Climb020 (Aug 19, 2006)

I use to climb the way you described Tom. It worked quite well for SRT. But then I wanted to compete so I had to learn to FL. I believe the reason they have FL in comps is jsut that it is the fastest way to enter a tree. And being we are production workers that fastest way is the preferred way. But FL isn't for everyone cause it sure beats you up like you said. 
Only thing about FL comps that I hate is that damned prussik. My hands feel like they are gonna get carpletunnle after just 50 ft.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 19, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> After talking with my friends we all agreed that the likely future of arbo SRT will be *some variation of combining a friction hitch and a chunk of metal*. What it will look like is for an arbo to discover. Like I said, the Unicender has changed the path. In time, something like that will have the best chance of becoming 'normal', not just for arbos but for all working rope technicians.




This is the SRT/DRT "HYBRID" i've been talking about...i use a Rescuecender instead of a Blakes.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 19, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Hey TM, please post a pic of your device for working off if it is not a hitch and cost less than $30.
> 
> I was thinking Lockjack and Gri gri but they're way dearer.
> 
> ...


Hi Ekka. No, it is not a device that you climb up and down on. I seperate those two tasks. There's a device that effectively and safely allows you to ascend a rope, and we all know it as an ascender. Very little friction, easy to place on and off the rope, even with one hand of you would make that sort of attempt (that's one of the criteria I use in trying out devices). I use an ascender to ascend. It is what they are made for and is pretty much all they do. They work exceedingly well for the purpose intended, so I have a few, the CMI, like Tom's the Petzl blue right hand and gold left hand ascenders and the one I use, the Kong dual. I also have a Petzl Croll, a Tibloc and a Pantin, all ascenders but they don't get much use. Then I have a rock exotica dualcender, and for my flipline, a micrograb. And a GriGri. And a ProTraxion which is a cammed pully that _can_ be used as an ascender (I had to try it just once to see). 

This is one of the big hangups is that the general arborist community feels the need to have _one thing_ that covers both ascent and descent. The makers of the unicender have tried this and as I understand it works OK, though I have never tried one. 

As far as the friction hitch and it's unique ability to get you up and down, that would be THE redeeming quality, that and it's self-locking. The downsides are many, whether using a traditional system, a split tail or an advanced hitch using dual-eyed tress cord.

In using mechanical devices, other than the unicender, the ascent / descent jobs are covered by different devices. Ascending with ascenders, and working the crown and abseiling with a chunk of metal that's been formed into some unique shape. 

This is the big hang-up, I think, with arbos. We learned on a system that goes both ways, so a mechanical system that doesn't go both ways is somehow not acceptable. That's a mental barrier. You need to get up in the tree, remove the ascender, attach your piece and go to work. If you get in a spot where you have to ascend back up, clip on the ascender, remove the device and go back up. If a switchover is done somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds, you really shouldn't argue the point of having to do and un-do pieces. Generally speaking, after the ascent into the tree, the ascender doesn't get used again. It's tree climbing and work positioning and descent from there on.

A lot of guys are using ascenders to get into the tree, then they tie and set their friction hitch once up there. That seems to be OK.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 20, 2006)

Switching back and forth between ascent/descent systems as many times as I need to when working a tree would be problematic. In the gross view of working a tree I work from the top down but there are times when I'm working a portion of the tree that I need to move back up...sometimes just a little to reposition. Descenders rarely allow that to be done easily. 

The place where traditional arbo systems really own the space is when working the outer third of the canopy. Lots of repositioning is required and most times the repo is just inches or fractions of an inch. Being able to do this one-handed makes the DdRT the best choice as far as I'm concerned. That is...until a better SRT ascent/descent system is found. 

Choosing the best system for the job at hand is the challenge to a progressive climber.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 20, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Switching back and forth between ascent/descent systems as many times as I need to when working a tree would be problematic.


My point earlier that once you're up in the tree, you're tree climbing, not ascending rope. Ascending the rope while up there should be rather infrequent. Hanging on the rope, on the other hand, or using the rope to assist you moving up to your next position, common and frequent. This can be done on ascender or descender.



Tom said:


> In the gross view of working a tree I work from the top down but there are times when I'm working a portion of the tree that I need to move back up...sometimes just a little to reposition. Descenders rarely allow that to be done easily.


HUH? What????? This is the essence of what a friction control piece is supposed to do: control friction. The sole reason I use hardware is that it makes it easier than using a friction hitch. Easier on, easier off, easier to use, longer lasting. If a descender (a specific class of friction control hardware) makes it more of a pain than a hitch, I will not use it. Certain ascenders work better than others, I go for the ones that offer the most safety, most versatility and overall the most benefit. And I continue looking for something better. Same goes for the descent piece. I will try (and have tried) everything that comes my way, as not all pieces behave the same.



Tom said:


> The place where traditional arbo systems really own the space is when working the outer third of the canopy. Lots of repositioning is required and most times the repo is just inches or fractions of an inch. Being able to do this one-handed makes the DdRT the best choice as far as I'm concerned. That is...until a better SRT ascent/descent system is found.


See, the outer canopy is where I enjoy direct friction the most. A small piece should allow you incremental tensioning/detensioning of your lifeline, one-handed and without looking. It should allow you to pass rope through with ease as you move about and if you were to stumble or fall the piece should either slow or stop you without you having to put your hand on it, and not let you drop like a rock. The requirements for a friction piece should equal and exceed the performance of a friction hitch, otherwise why not just use a friction hitch?

I prefer not having friction over top of a limb or crotch. It adds a variable that changes from tree to tree, bark type, limb diameter, rope diameter, wet limb/dry limb. In 2:1 that's what you get, as well as having to pass twice as much rope through your hitch to get the same amount of adjustment. With a piece, all friction is controlled right there off the front of your saddle, either one-handed or no-handed, in a 1:1 manner. It should all be very straight-forward, intuitive, safe and easy to use. 



Tom said:


> Choosing the best system for the job at hand is the challenge to a progressive climber.


Agreed, Tom, and I am still looking. I have used a variety of all kinds of different crown working / descent pieces, a few that are pretty good, but have not found one thing that blows all others away. Many of the more expensive ones I only try out at the vendor's booths at TCIA or a caving event, just to see how it works, feels, the time it takes to place and remove, etc. I may have never used a Petzl Stop descender, or a brake bar descender in a tree, but I can tell you the reasons why I won't.


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## Grizzly (Aug 20, 2006)

treeclimber165 said:


> I have somewhat of a dilemma concerning all these newfangled climbing tools. Most of what I have learned in the last 5-10 years about climbing and new gear has been through industry mags and of course the Sherrill catalogue. When conversing with other climbers in places like this, it seems like EVERYONE uses all this new stuff. But in REAL LIFE, I have only met one climber who uses a split-tail system, and I climbed twice as fast as him. I still climb with my old-fashioned Karl Kuemmerling belt, never had a 'biner attached to it and probably wouldn't know what to do with one if I had it. I can tie my tautline hitch without looking- one handed. I trust it with my life without even thinking about it. I have seen pics of some of the setups some guys use, and it is a mass of confusion and multiple ropes with multiple attachments. WAY too much stuff for me to worry about. I'll stick with one rope and one locking clip, thank you.
> 
> If I ever could actually work with someone as adept with all this new stuff as you guys seem to be, it might be different. But in my world, it isn't here. Why does this stuff only exist online and in magazines?




Well for me and climbing, I try to keep it simple and smoth. I typically spike up and down so i'm always hooked to the tree.
yet the lat take down I did, I was on a decent and I slid down the tree like a fire fighter pole and scraped up both of my arms to the max. I just got a precent and I'm trying to pick up on lock tieing up tree. Sort of like the way the palm slayer showed on his how to clip. (knot wise)
yet would lock tieing be benificial to use even on a take down?


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## Grizzly (Aug 20, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> My point earlier that once you're up in the tree, you're tree climbing, not ascending rope. Ascending the rope while up there should be rather infrequent. Hanging on the rope, on the other hand, or using the rope to assist you moving up to your next position, common and frequent. This can be done on ascender or descender.
> 
> 
> HUH? What????? This is the essence of what a friction control piece is supposed to do: control friction. The sole reason I use hardware is that it makes it easier than using a friction hitch. Easier on, easier off, easier to use, longer lasting. If a descender (a specific class of friction control hardware) makes it more of a pain than a hitch, I will not use it. Certain ascenders work better than others, I go for the ones that offer the most safety, most versatility and overall the most benefit. And I continue looking for something better. Same goes for the descent piece. I will try (and have tried) everything that comes my way, as not all pieces behave the same.
> ...




Why not?
Is there too much do doing it or do you need to be a rocket scientist to do it fast enought to do your job faster.


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## oldirty (Feb 16, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> TreeMachine,
> 
> You need to get yourself to an ISA TCC to get a better frame of reference. You may be a big fish in your local pond but the TCC will show you there is a much bigger pond out there.





anyone else going to the TCC in Rhode Island this year?


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## Ted-RI (Feb 16, 2009)

Oh hell yes. Its a hometown event. Providence is a lot of fun!!


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## TreeTopKid (Feb 16, 2009)

oldirty said:


> anyone else going to the TCC in Rhode Island this year?



Yes Sir!


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 16, 2009)

This is an ancient thread!

The discussion of simple climbing systems will continue for ever.

What continues to amaze me is how firmly some climbers hold onto the notion, with HUGE pride, that the old way is the best just because of it's simplicity. Rubbish! If that were the case then we wouldn't be using this medium to discuss the issue. And...everyone would be back to using only landlines for their phones...no cell phones, to say nothing about PDA type phones. Be consistent...upgrade your climbing skills and tools along with everything else. There ARE great benefits to doing that.

I still have the black, Bell System wall phone that I grew up using. It has a real rotary dialer too. If the time comes to have a landline that phone will go back up on the wall, and wired to work, in my shop. But...my iPhone will be in my pocket with me all of the time!

Get to the ITCC. Then, you can properly compare how well a variety of climbing skills compare. At the end of the day you'll be able to see the spectrum of skills and range of technology used in the trees. A proper combination of skills and technology will keep climbers healthy and productive for many more years than traditional skills.


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## oldirty (Feb 16, 2009)

mr dunlap, sir.


you still running a distel on your flipline prussic? i just moved on from the steelcore/microcender to a rope flip with a prussic and have been searching the site looking for the best option....

what are you up to regarding fliplines and their set up?

thanks


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## oldirty (Feb 16, 2009)

Ted-RI said:


> Oh hell yes. Its a hometown event. Providence is a lot of fun!!



cheater's is a good time, i know that much. lol



TreeTopKid said:


> Yes Sir!



lets meet up then. i like meeting people from the site and tree climbing world.

should be a good time.


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## Highclimber OR (Feb 16, 2009)

I was taught young in an older climbing style with shortcuts and adaptations but over time I change and use things that work and make life easier. I have been using a self made split tail and I usually tie a Blake's so that the ends of my rope don't get over worn and pretty much anything within reason that helps. The only thing I am not into is switching my flip line knot for a Petzl or a Gibbs, I have seen them fail and don't fully trust them. I use a bit of both and it works well for me. I have never seen two climber's that climb alike so you really have a mixed bag as far as preferences.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 16, 2009)

oldirty said:


> mr dunlap, sir.



Uh...less formal, please 

Tom is what I go by...

I use an ISC swivel eye locking carabiner for my lanyard. The rope goes through the eye. New England Tech Cord is tied to the eye using scaffold hitches and a distel for adjustment. the eye in the biner acts as a slack tender. This setup is SOOOO compact and easy to adjust. It's not expensive either!

Being able to move the lanyard to my front dee for better work positioning makes this a very versatile setup. The lanyard becomes a short, SRT, climbing line.

There are plenty of pictures of the setup at the website that Mark Chisholm and I host. I'm not sure if I can name the site these days. If you need a link, email me and I'll get you there.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 16, 2009)

Tom Dunlap said:


> There are plenty of pictures of the setup at the website that Mark Chisholm and I host. I'm not sure if I can name the site these days. If you need a link, email me and I'll get you there.



Nope, still blocked, you'll have to link the pics or something. I can never remember my name/password over there, I go so seldom.


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## oldirty (Feb 16, 2009)

thank you....tom.

i actually have that biner!

i went with a tenex prussic and a pulley on a snap on a petzl biner. lottsa stuff, especially with the twisted clevis.

as i picture it in my mind though, your setup is clutter free man. i like. gonna have to go have a little looksie at your rig. 

truth be told i pinched from you previously, hence the respect thing. lol. not sure if you still run your climbing system the same or not but i saw a pic and explanation when i moved onto the splittail with a blakes. so thanks for that.


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## oldirty (Feb 16, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Nope, still blocked, you'll have to link the pics or something. I can never remember my name/password over there, I go so seldom.



member but have never posted.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 16, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Nope, still blocked, you'll have to link the pics or something. I can never remember my name/password over there, I go so seldom.



Why not a mysterious name...uh...like...John Paul Sanborn 

You're missing out by not coming over JPS. If you need help getting your password setup again, send me an email and I think that I can get it straightened for you.

Tenex isn't a favorite for places where there's friction. There are plenty of other fibers that work well. And...most of them are smaller diameter which leads to a more compact setup.

I climb SRT using the Unicender. When I have to climb trad/DdRT I have to think very carefully about the setup because my muscle memory, mental and physical, isn't tuned to DdRT anymore.


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## oldirty (Feb 16, 2009)

Tom Dunlap said:


> There are plenty of pictures of the setup .




i found a couple pics, thanks.


sweet set up indeed!


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## TreeTopKid (Feb 18, 2009)

oldirty said:


> member but have never posted.



Hey did you see the pictures of that self tending flip line with the ISC swivel set up because I really like the sound of it.


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## JeffL (Feb 18, 2009)

Dear god, I climbed on a closed system for the first time in over a year just yesterday. How awful. Constantly untying and retying the climbing hitch.........add a split tail and recrotching, or releasing your climbing line is nothing more than a click of a rope snap.

Tell ya what, I'll never forget to bring my own gear to a job again, jeez!


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## Tree Machine (Feb 18, 2009)

Self-tending flipline? Like, it adjusts itself? What do you mean by this?

I ask because I've never had a flipline that's ever required slack tending. Maybe I missed that along the way. I just can't see why anyone would use a flipline system that _required_ you to tend slack. That would be counter-productive and unnecessarily slow, extra effort, inefficient.

I'm not throwing a flame. I really would like to know. I am very much a noobie to a flipline adjustment that requires you to tend slack. A pic would be very helpful.... not of the self-tending type; that's all I'm familiar with. Anybody.


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## TreeTopKid (Feb 18, 2009)

JeffL said:


> Dear god, I climbed on a closed system for the first time in over a year just yesterday. How awful. Constantly untying and retying the climbing hitch.........add a split tail and recrotching, or releasing your climbing line is nothing more than a click of a rope snap.
> 
> Tell ya what, I'll never forget to bring my own gear to a job again, jeez!



I melted a tail just before Christmas, and had to do the same. There's a guy I work with that refuses to use a tail, and I just can't work out why? It's a giant waste of time. He has no concept of 'time is money'.

As soon a I get my Spiderjack I'm going to try to make the Blakes history too!


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## oldirty (Feb 18, 2009)

Tree Machine said:


> Self-tending flipline? Like, it adjusts itself? What do you mean by this?
> 
> I ask because I've never had a flipline that's ever required slack tending. Maybe I missed that along the way. I just can't see why anyone would use a flipline system that _required_ you to tend slack. That would be counter-productive and unnecessarily slow, extra effort, inefficient.
> 
> I'm not throwing a flame. I really would like to know. I am very much a noobie to a flipline adjustment that requires you to tend slack. A pic would be very helpful.... not of the self-tending type; that's all I'm familiar with. Anybody.



yup grab the flip if you need to tighten up and pull man. releases real nice like under weight too.

sweet is one of the adjectives that i have been using when i refer to it, slick could be another.


if i wasnt so bad at the computer i could probably put a pic if it up but i know for a fact that tom d has a couple pics of it at his spot. 

i guess you can even use the captive eye biner too, not just the swivel biner.


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## oldirty (Feb 18, 2009)

yeah man, i am psyched to get it into the action.


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## rngrchad (Feb 18, 2009)

I have noticed most of these so called "new tools" for climbing have been used for years and years in the rock-climbing and rope-rescue scenes. I use my rock-climbing gear as it is what I am most familiar with having been around it for over 10 years. When I look through the arborist catalogues, they throw in old tools and claim them to be the latest and greates thing to happen to tree climbing when in fact it is nothing new at all...just new to some arborists.
-chad


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## oldirty (Feb 18, 2009)

you use a swivel biner in rock climbing?


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## rngrchad (Feb 18, 2009)

oldirty said:


> you use a swivel biner in rock climbing?



I personally do not, however my friends who climb big-walls use them to keep their haul-bags from tangling ropes on mutli-pitch routes.....some folks use them for setting up top-ropes although I think it's rather silly.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 18, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> Hey did you see the pictures of that self tending flip line with the ISC swivel set up because I really like the sound of it.



Is this sort of the ISC thing you're talking about? This doesn't have a swivel biner. The swivel is not really needed on a rope flipline, but on a wirecore it would serve some benefit.


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## oldirty (Feb 18, 2009)

no that aint it, man. 

its a captive eye swivel biner. 

biner to the side d ring and the slide the rope through the captive eye. on the captive eye you put the prussic. i am using some HRC chit from new england rope. 

scaffold/doublefish knot one end on the captive eye then tie and dress the prussic ( i am using the recommended distel) and then scaffold/doublefish the other end on the other side side of the captive eye.

and presto change-o you got a self tending flipline without all the hardware.

i would take a pic but i got a new laptop and i cant figure out how to post pics. sorry dude, i would love to share with ya and clear up any confusion.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 19, 2009)

I can see it in my head; the prussik would be on the tree side of the captive eye. Pulling the rope through the captive eye would force the coils up against the captive eye. Weighting the rope would engage the hitch. Pretty cool.

Once the hitch is engaged, that is, constricting the flipline, it seems that to adjust further in you'd be pulling against the force of the friction being created by the hitch. I'm imagining resistance on adjusting in, but with excellent, non-slippage when weighting the flipline.

Resistance while trying to adjust in would get old quick.
If you had to loosen the coils whenever you wanted to adjust in, or just tolerate the resistant from the force of the coils, it makes for a tricked out system, but less than ideal, practically speaking. Really, though, I don't know how much resistance it would offer, but there has to be some. That's just the nature of a distel. A VT would collapse better, but you trade for excess slop in a system where things should be exact and precise

Having to do _any more than one single, one-handed motion_ to adjust in or out, or EVER having to adjust your adjuster is more work than necessary. I'm of the 'time is money' school.

That's a problem I had with this setup below: It was a two-way rope grab. I liked the swivel aspect but had to physically reach across and hold the adjuster in mid-position and use the other hand to pull rope and adjust into the tree. I've tried a number of useful adjusters, this was *not* one of them. I imagine this piece has practical uses, just not on a flipline. It gave me the same headaches I used to have using prussics on flipline (though I've honestly never actually tried the cool prussik-on-flipline with a captive-eye biner).


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## beastmaster (Feb 19, 2009)

Boy, I'm learning a lot of cool stuff from this thread. I don't know if I'm old school, but I am old. It's only been in the last several years(when I got a computer)that I start useing new techniques. I like any thing that'll make job easier and safer. I now use a slit tail with a pully. I can't see climbing with out it. I use 11m climbing line. I just bought a new glide saddle ,and going to trade in my spit tail for a prussic. I got read of that big heavy clip, and use biners. I now use the Dsrt for footlocking. I converted to the blakes. I do most of my cutting with my silky. All those things have made me a better more efficient climber. I try to get other climber I work with to just try out a slit tail. They won't give it a try. Their lost. On the other hand I see what some people take up the tree with em and think its way over kill. K.I.S.S If you don't at lest check out whats out there that new or at lest new to you that may improve your all around performance thats just stubbornest..


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## oldirty (Feb 19, 2009)

i'm hearing ya about 2 handing to adjust. ive more or less been on the gibbs for all my climbing career. the one's that come with the steelcore flip. i made a long rope flip out of some excess 9/16th and was using a gibbs for that too.

i got used to having to reweight myself to get tightened or loosened up on the steel core adjuster.

funny thing (to me) is that i just bought a prussic and another micro pulley to go on my saddle as the new flipline system only to find this little beauty of an idea. maybe i'll just use the new prussic and pulley for the pine tree's.

TM, you got the idea though. i still havent used it other than rafter time but i am thinking nothing but good things about it. it cant be any worse than the gibbs.


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## oldirty (Feb 19, 2009)

beastmaster said:


> Boy, I'm learning a lot of cool stuff from this thread. I don't know if I'm old school, but I am old...



thats why i knocked the dust off this thread man, i was searching another topic when i came across this. i couldnt keep it for myself. i just had to share with everyone who hadnt read it.



good luck man, stay safe.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 19, 2009)

oldirty said:


> thats why i knocked the dust off this thread man



So many past threads, treasures of detailed information, buried. The same topics come up in new threads and are covered superficially as the dedicated contributors of past don't want to spend time repeating what has already been gone over. Thank you for rekindling a good one.



oldirty said:


> i got used to having to reweight myself to get tightened or loosened up on the steel core adjuster.


Don't you just tip your left hip toward the adjuster for a fraction of a second while you release the grab? 

I hear guys endorsing the 'benefit' of being able to adjust-out while the flipline is weighted. I'd say that would only be a benefit if it doesn't come at the cost of lessened efficiency while adjusting-in. Adjusting-in, toward the tree is _far more critical_ than releasing and backing away from. From the friction and performance standpoint, adjusting-out is a gimme, that's the easy part. Adjusting-_in_ is where you need friction-free, precise, one-handed, non-slop, instant ease.

Also, the adjuster should ideally be low-profile (small, not bulky or heavy) so that it doesn't get hung up in crotches when you're cruising around up there. The swivel-biner would definitely have the benefit of being light and 'slithery'. I will try that out some day. What I'm currently using is not showing me the love.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 19, 2009)

My micrograb has been in non-use for about a year and a half, but it's still the reference for simplicity, durability, size & compactness. I had to use mine to establish a 'vacation saddle' and instead of gearing my home saddle with the same thing I figured I'd move around a bit and try some different things- not because I found the micrograb problematic in any way, but I just like to try different stuff. Micrograb on 11 mm, not 13. I just wish they'd come out with an 11 mm _wirecore_ flipline. I KNOW I could love that.

What I'm using right now is the worst of anything I've used, except the Klimair two-way adjuster (I don't think they intended that for flipline usage). I can adjust-out fully weighted, but ya know what,? it is a rare moment when I am hanging with 100% of my weight on a flipline. Usually I'm standing on something, a limb on trim or spikes on a takedown, so the vast majority of the time, on a scale of important features, adjusting-out while fully weighted is about at the bottom of the list. Just about everything I've ever used allows adjustment out while partially weighted. If the climber were unable to adjust out on a partially loaded flipline, that would mean he/she would have to have the flipline completely slack to disengage the adjuster.

That adjuster would be in the class of_ toothed devices_, like a tibloc or a mini-traxion or an old version ropeman. Poor choices to be sure, at least for this application. Anything with a smooth, or ribbed cam will release under partial weight, or with the friction surface partially released.

We gotta have a picture of your flipline setup, TreeCo. I'm eager to move onto something better. C'mon, throw down dude!


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## Tree Machine (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you for the pic, TreeCo. So the end of the line not shown would have a stopper knot. The clip end would extend out, around the tree and to your far-side D. Yes?

Two things that flash immediately, and please correct me if I'm wrong-- to feed rope out, you need one hand to collapse the hitch, the other to feed the rope through.

Second, every time you want to adjust-in, the coils need to retract to the point that they hit the swivel (let's say 5"), THEN the rope can feed through it, then to tension things up the coils need to go back to the tensioned position, another 5" travel back. This is 10" of 'slop' in the system. Of course, the measurements are a visual guess, but the point being, so much of the time an adjustment-in needs to be a couple or three inches.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Make me a believer. Or at least make my 'visual guess' on distances more accurate, and let me know how paying out can be a one-handed operation.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 19, 2009)

I'll be in providence!

Justin, if you want some of that NE ropes techcord like Tom uses give me a call, moss hooked me up with some.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you for keeping me on track. Here's the part where I'm fuzzy:


> Paying out rope is a one handed operation. Just grab the wraps of the hitch, squeeze and pull lightly.


Paying out would be if the snap is not attached to you, and for this I see one hand on the hitch to engage the release and the other hand to pay out. 

Now if the snap is attached already to the far-side D, _adjusting-out_ would be a one-handed op. 

Likely, though, in action, the snap is not up close to the hitch as seen in the picture and and the line wouldn't need to be paid out in order to get connected. The stopper knot would be closer to the VT and the better length of the flipine already paid out & readied for action with only the weight of the snap to flip around the tree. Cool. 

Also, thanks for clarifying the amount of slop in the system. That's truly important, not as a point to criticize, but as a point to compare. If you come from a world of reaching across, releasing a hitch with one hand, using the other to pull rope through, a self-tending, one-handed system with a 3" in 3" out slop factor would be a world of improvement. 

To adjust in, TreeCo, do you use a motion of pulling the knot end backwards, away from the tree, like the motion you would use in working a ski pole, or do you come across with the far-side hand and pull across your belly?


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## oldirty (Feb 20, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I switched to this set up from using the micro acender and like it better.
> .



yup. this new (to me) setup is solid. i wont be going back to a mech adjuster anytime soon, thats fo sho. dont need a pulley either. less of that jingle jangle the old schoolers hate. lol.

sweet! thanks tom d.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 20, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> The VT is tied to my left D and may likely be replaced soon with the swivel biner.



If you tie a VT so that the top end of the coil braids under the bottom end it functions better.


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## LTREES (Feb 20, 2009)

I started to use the micro acender on a cable lanyard early last year. I find the lanyard feeding through alot when I'm climbing. I would guess it is from dragging the tail along. Do you guys get that alot?(before you hung them in the shed) Then you need 2 hands to feed it out to a workable length. Can you use the cabled lanyard in this set up or do you need to use rope. I have always used a 3 strand rope before with 2 clips and a prussic. This is good stuff you guys are showing us, I appreciate it. I am looking to advance my climbing and I'm looking to go SRT very soon. Just have not seen it around here. Need to learn more. What kind of pulley are you using on the climbing line? I would like to see a good pic of that set up and proper lengths of the tails. Thanks again.

LT...


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## Bermie (Mar 10, 2009)

TM, it seems you've been using mechanical grabs for so long you don't get how easy it is to have a rope adjuster on a lanyard! Sorry if I got the wrong impression...

In or out, adjusting the rope (distel or VT) is a one hand EASY operation. You don't even have to take your weight load off the hitch to go in or out although a quick hip flick does make it a bit easier.

The slack on mine can't be more than a few inches, so there is not a lot of set back.

I have tried mechanical adjusters on lanyards and I don't like how you have to take weight off first to release them, that then does require using two hands sometimes...unless I've only been using old style ones!


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## Tree Machine (Mar 14, 2009)

Bermie points out. 


> TM, it seems you've been using mechanical grabs for so long you don't get how easy it is to have a rope adjuster on a lanyard! Sorry if I got the wrong impression...
> 
> 
> > No, it's more the school of friction hitch _fixed (anchored)_, or friction hitch attached to the _Non-Anchored_ end of the flipline. Or the DEDA, (dual-ended, dual adjustable) where niether end is anchored.
> ...


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## Raymond (Mar 14, 2009)

I like to mix it up a bit. Little old, little new...koo koo kachoo  Sorry..I don't know where that came from.


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## oldirty (Mar 15, 2009)

Raymond said:


> I like to mix it up a bit. Little old, little new...koo koo kachoo  Sorry..I don't know where that came from.



i think its the mullet.

the short hair with the spike represents the business side of you but the hair flowing over the shoulders surely must represent the party side....


not many can pull that off rayray. you do....koo koo kachoo.


lol


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## tree MDS (Mar 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> i think its the mullet.
> 
> the short hair with the spike represents the business side of you but the hair flowing over the shoulders surely must represent the party side....
> 
> ...



That was truely hilarious oldirty, lol.

Hey ray, you keep throwing up pics of that thing and we'll surely get you to hack her off eventually. Let her go man, let her go.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 15, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> That was truely hilarious oldirty, lol.
> 
> Hey ray, you keep throwing up pics of that thing and we'll surely get you to hack her off eventually. Let her go man, let her go.



My girl's a mullet aficionado. Everytime she sees a dude with one she needs a picture. She's got a whole collection of pics of her with mullet guys. She even has a few mullet wigs we wear out from time to time. 

On topic though, I'm still fighting to get the hang of new-school gear. I've been on my split tail and blakes with a micro pulley for a bit but still tie off on the closed system for smaller removals where I don't foresee the need to recrotch. I just swung around the tree with a prussik loop VT the other day. I like it because I'm learning more but the advantages still seem minimal. I've yet to find the sweetness.


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## oldirty (Mar 15, 2009)

you mustnt be looking to hard man, its there.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> you mustnt be looking to hard man, its there.



So true. I think you need to see someone who uses a VT regularly to see the potential. I was using a Blake's on a double crotch transfer last Tuesday, golly-gee, what a PITA.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 15, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> So true. I think you need to see someone who uses a VT regularly to see the potential. I was using a Blake's on a double crotch transfer last Tuesday, golly-gee, what a PITA.



No doubt I'm gonna put many more hours on it before I make my final decision. It's way better for ascending. I combined that with my new foot ascender for a sweet little getup but slack tending wasn't as easy as I was hoping. Just gotta spend some more time with it, I s'pose.


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## oldirty (Mar 15, 2009)

you need to close the distance between your knot and pulley, i think.

are you running the pulley from the biner? i ended up putting the pulley on the splittail itself, closing the distance. i liked it better after that.

wait till you get to the prussic. good times.


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## Raymond (Mar 16, 2009)

I bought one of those micro pulleys a few years ago. I was looking forward to using it but was slightly disappointed.

I'm still using the Tautline Hitch...I know, I know. But It's kinda hard making the switch after all these years. I think that's one of the problems with the micro pulley. I don't think it works with the taughtline hitch.

:computer: As far as the mullet, one day it'll be back in style and I'm gonna have a head start on ya. 
For what it's worth it's kinda like my little trademark around here. I've had people call for estimates and would ask.."This is the guy with the mullet right?"


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 16, 2009)

I wouldn't get too hung up on a new system Ray. You like what you have, run it. I climb on a Spiderjack and an Icicle hitch closed system which are purebread new school, but I still respect the simplicity of the fixed tail tauline. It may not have some of the other advantages, but simplicity is it's advantage.

Looking sharp up there BTW!


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## Raymond (Mar 16, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> I wouldn't get too hung up on a new system Ray. You like what you have, run it. I climb on a Spiderjack and an Icicle hitch closed system which are purebread new school, but I still respect the simplicity of the fixed tail tauline. It may not have some of the other advantages, but simplicity is it's advantage.
> 
> Looking sharp up there BTW!


Nails you're the man!  
I have been thinking of switching up my descending knot though. Just picking the right day..ya know?

I'm kinda a dip#### when it comes to learning new tricks. :hmm3grin2orange: Hey wait a minute that ain't funny.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 16, 2009)

oldirty said:


> you need to close the distance between your knot and pulley, i think.
> 
> are you running the pulley from the biner? i ended up putting the pulley on the splittail itself, closing the distance. i liked it better after that.
> 
> wait till you get to the prussic. good times.



Yeah, buddy. We talked that over before and that's how I've been running my split and blakes with the pulley snapped onto the split. An improvement for sure. 

You might have misunderstood but I have switched ( at least I just started playing with ) the prussik loop VT. In my bag o' goodies from sherrill last week I got a 30" 8 mil beeline to run on my old new england hi vee. It's pretty slick I was just hoping for something more, I guess. Like I said before, when every one around you is strict old school to the bone and you're still a little wet behind the ears, climbing with all these new gizmos seems a bit silly. I'm just gonna keep playing with 'er, put it in some real life work situations slowly and see how it goes. I'm still waitin' for your azz to get down here so I can see a real climber, lol.


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 16, 2009)

Raymond said:


> Nails you're the man!
> I have been thinking of switching up my descending knot though. Just picking the right day..ya know?
> 
> I'm kinda a dip#### when it comes to learning new tricks. :hmm3grin2orange: Hey wait a minute that ain't funny.



Hey Ray, are you working with any other climbers that are up on the new gear? If so, you could try some new stuff without spending the bucks. 

It'll take time to feel completely comfortable with any change you make, that's the challenge.


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## TreeTopKid (Mar 16, 2009)

I've got the biner to the D, then the flip line through the swivel you then tie your prussic outside of the swivel using a Distel? Excuse me I'm frying whats left of brain with this. I originally pictured the knot on the inside with the tail of the flip line hanging out of the hole in the swivel.

I know we can rectify this! LOL


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## Raymond (Mar 16, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Hey Ray, are you working with any other climbers that are up on the new gear? If so, you could try some new stuff without spending the bucks.
> 
> It'll take time to feel completely comfortable with any change you make, that's the challenge.


The only climbers I have around me are dangerous free climbers. Not on my crew, just acquaintance's. These guys only have one little cheap rope from the dollar store. 

They use it to pull the saw up, sloppy chop a few pieces down, lower the saw back down, move to another part of the tree and do it again.
Using nothing but a pair of pole spurs from a pawn shop.

It's bad bro..that's why I like coming in here and talk to some real tree guys.

Get this...they snicker at me for using all the gear I use. But yet when they get a tree they can't handle they show up by here and want me to do it.

It's fun though, I go up and hammer down a tree so fast they can't even keep up, leaving them holding a couple junk/dull saws scratching their heads. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## oldirty (Mar 16, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> I've got the biner to the D, then the flip line through the swivel you then tie your prussic outside of the swivel using a Distel? Excuse me I'm frying whats left of brain with this. I originally pictured the knot on the inside with the tail of the flip line hanging out of the hole in the swivel.
> 
> I know we can rectify this! LOL





ok. because i dont know how to operate my computer i can not download any pics to show you. so here's what i am going to attempt to do, write out what it looks like to me.

clip the captive eye swivel biner to your left d ring.

clip dead ended biner/rope snap to right d ring.

go around tree/pole/whatever you want to use to pretend you are tied in and almost ready to lean back with the rope and then slide it through (from front to back) into the captive eye.

now you are looking down at the rope going through the eye.

tie the distel to the rope. tie set dress the knot.

on either side of the rope, tie a scaffold/doublefisherman knot TO the captive eye with your prussic. i am using HRC from new england rope. obviously not spliced.

try to take away as much of the distance from the eye to the knot as you can, i have about 3 inches of play in mine.


bang. there it is. from my mind's eye to yours.


now if you really want. go to the buzz and look for a thread started by tom d with captive eye swivel biner flipline in it.


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## oldirty (Mar 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yeah, buddy. We talked that over before and that's how I've been running my split and blakes with the pulley snapped onto the split. An improvement for sure.
> 
> You might have misunderstood but I have switched ( at least I just started playing with ) the prussik loop VT. In my bag o' goodies from sherrill last week I got a 30" 8 mil beeline to run on my old new england hi vee. It's pretty slick I was just hoping for something more, I guess. Like I said before, when every one around you is strict old school to the bone and you're still a little wet behind the ears, climbing with all these new gizmos seems a bit silly. I'm just gonna keep playing with 'er, put it in some real life work situations slowly and see how it goes. I'm still waitin' for your azz to get down here so I can see a real climber, lol.




just the ease of re TIP'n is worth the effort.

lets figure something out man. for real. it'll be a good time. supposedly there is a GTG going on soon out around our area. we should aim for that if it isnt a day of work that brings us upon a meeting.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 16, 2009)

oldirty said:


> just the ease of re TIP'n is worth the effort.
> 
> lets figure something out man. for real. it'll be a good time. supposedly there is a GTG going on soon out around our area. we should aim for that if it isnt a day of work that brings us upon a meeting.



Eh, I can retip my split w/ blakes. The vt tends nicer just not as nice as I was hoping. And what mI gonna do, rename myself VTmaster? Where's this gtg at anywho?


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 16, 2009)

Raymond said:


> The only climbers I have around me are dangerous free climbers. Not on my crew, just acquaintance's. These guys only have one little cheap rope from the dollar store.
> 
> They use it to pull the saw up, sloppy chop a few pieces down, lower the saw back down, move to another part of the tree and do it again.
> Using nothing but a pair of pole spurs from a pawn shop.
> ...



Yep, you've come to the right place then. It's fun having you around, you add some good flavor!


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## Raymond (Mar 17, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Yep, you've come to the right place then. It's fun having you around, you add some good flavor!


Thanks ..Yeah I catch myself telling people about this site often, few customers even. 
The potty mouth sensor guys keep busting me though. Sometimes it just takes the right words to make your point. 
But yeah I'm adjusting. I don't want the boot just yet.


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## familytreeman (Mar 19, 2009)

*new lanyard idea*

speaking of new technique vs. old, check out this lanyard idea on the new posts list

'great lanyard idea'


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## StihlRockin' (Mar 23, 2009)

The Big Hurt said:


> ...its not worth all of the time I would have to take it slow and low to learn it because my productivity would suffer during that amount of time and I hate being unproductive....its not good for business.



Man, can't stand the idea of letting that comment slide. That kind of thinking just burns me.(sorry) That ideology don't compute in this ol' brain of mine. I'd sacrifice NOW the un-productiveness and slowness of learning something new, to learn something for years and years that will be more productive down the road... it's good for business.

That's the way I see it.

*StihlRockin'*


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## familytreeman (Mar 23, 2009)

*new style*

he prob live in a cave, heats eats and sees by campfire, rides a horse to work and uses the buggy to haul tools , brush, etc


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## Josh777 (May 17, 2010)

seanlarkin said:


> I am exposed to all the new stuff, am always speaking with innovators...
> 
> I can certainly understand the comfortability factor, and I'm not discounting that, but outside of that, just because you've been doing something for 10 years doesn't mean it can't be improved upon, right?
> 
> ...



Being comfortable with what your doing, while working at height, is king in my book, but at the same time it's like you said, you got to keep learning, keep trying new things, keep adding to your knowledge base in order to refine that workflow. It's true not every gadget or technique is necessary or beneficial in every circumstance but when the need arises and you know all this stuff; it sure makes things a lot easier. -Josh


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