# How to use your saws sights



## smokechase II (Aug 6, 2009)

Here is a link to the Williams Fire in Oregon.

A photo from their web page:

http://www.inciweb.org/incident/pictures/large/1763/4/

===============

Note that the faller is looking *down* the sights *toward* the target.
They are both in the same view.

If you are in the habit of looking down at your sights and drawing a line with your mind or your hand you are denying yourself the best accuracy.

Its OK when your have a huge target. No sweat.

However, consider trees well over 100 feet tall and the accuracy needed.


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## forestryworks (Aug 6, 2009)

this is a good thread.


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## smokechase II (Aug 6, 2009)

*Trivia*

Small item:

Note how the sawyer above is holding the saw so it will not move.

This can be done one handed by having the saw dogged in and pressure is put on the end of the gas tank handle.


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## forestryworks (Aug 6, 2009)

once the diameter of the tree is longer than the bar then comes parallax error... right?

i guess in that situation you would gun from one side of the tree only?


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## GASoline71 (Aug 6, 2009)

Great pic of the proper way to use the gunnin' sights... 

Gary


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## smokechase II (Aug 6, 2009)

*parallax*

*"once the diameter of the tree is longer than the bar then comes parallax error... right?"*

No, there is still an error with the sights regardless of bar length.

The sights point out from the powerhead.

But the faller is interested in where the tree is pointing.

One has to mentally determine what this offset is at any given distance from the tree, with regard to an off-set. The farther any target is from the stump, the closer this distance will appear to be to the cutter, hence the parrallax problem. 

Your sights will point slightly to the left or right of the desired lay OF THE SIDE OF THE TREE THAT THE POWERHEAD IS ON.

===============

To determine this off-set:

half the tree diameter at cut height
+
distance from bark to sights
=
offset.

So a tree being cut at a 30" diameter.

15" + about 7" = 22 inch to one side.

*******************

Granted, precision on this level is difficut.


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## smokechase II (Aug 6, 2009)

*Pic*

*"Great pic of the proper way to use the gunnin' sights."*

=============

yeah.

The cutter looks pro.

All the PPE. Looks like he got stuck with wearing new outer chaps for the fire.

----------------

I thought this would also be an interesting way to sucker some AS folks into linking to the fire web sites.


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## Philbert (Aug 6, 2009)

Great Photos.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## SURDO (Aug 7, 2009)

Pretty sure hes from Northwest Timber Fallers. May be wrong


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## Tree Sling'r (Aug 7, 2009)

SURDO said:


> Pretty sure hes from Northwest Timber Fallers. May be wrong



I think your right, khaki Nomex top and it is an Oregon fire.


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## Jacob J. (Aug 7, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> I think your right, khaki Nomex top and it is an Oregon fire.



I saw the NWTF guys wearing those on the Iron complex last year, they were pretty snazzy. They were even monogrammed with the guys' names on them. It's almost as if cutters are making too much money on these fires...


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

*Precision is difficult*



> Granted, precision on this level is difficut.


[/QUOTE]

Yes, very difficult. I have worked with guys that are experts at using their chainsaw gunning sights. If you have a big tree you can always use gun-sticks or two tape measures, as these methods, if performed correctly, will point where the center of the tree will go, but there will still be variables like side lean, holding wood soundness, other trees or obstacles, and wind to consider as always, which is why precision on this level is difficult. Here is the best picture I could find of someone using gun-sticks. 






Here is a picture of myself gunning a redwood with my chainsaw sights:




Notice the bull buck gunning behind me to check. I am pretty sure he is looking down the handlebars. We also used the two tape measure trick, and wish they would have snapped a picture of it. Best description is to plug a tape nail in one corner of undercut where bark meets wood, and do the same on opposite corner with a different tape measure, and then have two helpers cross the tapes at any distance...I would have like to have tried gun-sticks just for the fun of it, but never took the time to make a pair, or borrow them. My buddies used to make fun of me because I said that I wanted to invent Laser sight for my chainsaw, or mount one to a big carpenters square...that would be sweet! Wish I was cutting trees like this every day so I could experiment.


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> I saw the NWTF guys wearing those on the Iron complex last year, they were pretty snazzy. They were even monogrammed with the guys' names on them. It's almost as if cutters are making too much money on these fires...



No way man, they could never make too much money! I would have to make a lot of money if they made me wear those outside chaps.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Wages*

The wage for most of the fallers that are part of a falling module is $650/day.
Taxes and expenses coming out of that.

For instance; a module of two cutters/ saws/ vehicle(s) may be bid at $2200/day. After the Owner pays out workmans comp etc etc etc etc he then pays each cutter the $650. 

Some of these operations are only paying $500/day. Cheapskates.

The AD (solo) cutters bid for themselves or are paid to a set AD wage and I don't know what those wages are.

===============

I suspect that NWTF bought the shirts for their troops.


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## Metals406 (Aug 7, 2009)




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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> The wage for most of the fallers that are part of a falling module is $650/day.
> Taxes and expenses coming out of that.
> 
> For instance; a module of two cutters/ saws/ vehicle(s) may be bid at $2200/day. After the Owner pays out workmans comp etc etc etc etc he then pays each cutter the $650.
> ...



how do you get into that i wanna cut on fireline.


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## forestryworks (Aug 7, 2009)

take a pack test, get your red card. working your way up into the cutting ranks.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

forestryworks said:


> take a pack test, get your red card. working your way up into the cutting ranks.



what exactly is a packtest and how long do you think it would take to become a cutter on a fireline. i wish i could start right now. no doubt in my mind i could do it.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 7, 2009)

Very informative thread here. I like that the "offset" has been discussed because I don't hear it talked about much, as if you can point your site on a specific target and that's where the tree top will hit, doesn't work that way. I also like hearing precision discussed, it is difficult to calculate because of all the natural factors so experience and a faller with a good instinct and feel is still the most important to succesfully landing the timber in my opinion.


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## Metals406 (Aug 7, 2009)

Great thread Smoke!

I've found that carpentry has helped me greatly in falling trees. . . You're always using angles and dangles when building.

A good understanding of compression and tension on the stump, as well as over gunning the tree to make up for lean helps a bunch.

There's no better feeling than nailing your target dead-nuts.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

i bet a laser site on the powerhead would work well.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Fireline*

*"how do you get into that i wanna cut on fireline."*

To get on the fireline is one thing.

To get on the fireline as a cutter takes a lot more.

===============

Just a quick thought.
You'd want it to be hard to get on.
Timber falling - one of the more dangerous jobs in the world.
Add recently burnt trees or roots to the above.
Make it in the unhealthy forests of the Western US where there is already the same number of dead trees as dollars in our national debt clock. (Both are still going up briskly.)

================

You have to have 4 or maybe 5 years commercial falling. Not thinning, not firewooding, not arboristing but cutting timber or been certified as a C faller by an Agency.

Additionally, Most of these module outfits are real picky. Picky about their fuel, their saws, their buddies, their trucks and yes their cutters.

Hard to get on it is young yedi.

==================

Of course, all that could go out the window if you've got an uncle who runs one of these things.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*discussed*

*"i bet a laser site on the powerhead would work well."*

Back a year or so that was chatted here.

There are three sights on a saw. Top, clutch and flywheel sides.
How about one of 'dem laser levels etc etc was the thought.

You can always use a carpenters square.

Beware, the bottom of almost all bars has a slight curve.
(Hence the cut across is not straight.)

Beware, the sighting sticks are meant for fairly large tree diameters. 
What do you think? Do shorter sticks or longer sticks have the greatest tendency to error?


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## Metals406 (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> *"i bet a laser site on the powerhead would work well."*
> 
> Back a year or so that was chatted here.
> 
> ...



I would think gunning sticks would really come into use on stumps 5'+. . . Anything under that should be easily gunned using other techniques.

I've noticed a lot of guys want to rush through a larger diameter tree, like it's a 12" tree. . . Two different worlds there.

It's funny to watch someone rush through a tree, and really bugger things up. . . Mismatched face to backcut, prematurely cut (or real uneven) hold-wood, dutchman (accidentally). . . Rushing through a face and backcut is a real good way to smash something up.

I'm currently teaching my BIL proper felling technique, with all the "hows" and "whys". . . He wants to just "drop the tree". . . He's also learning tension vs. compression--it's funny, I'll let him stick his bar while bucking, and then explain why it happened, then I'll cut him out. If he pays attention, he should be a fairly safe and efficient faller within a few years. Tree's don't care if you're on a crew, or out getting firewood, the reactive forces are all the same.


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> *"i bet a laser site on the powerhead would work well."*
> 
> Back a year or so that was chatted here.
> 
> ...



Yes most chainsaw bars have a curve, especially the longer ones. I have an old rebuilt 54" General bar and it has some significant belly in it; that is why when gunning with it I make an imaginary straight line down the center of the bar and line that up with each corner of my undercut(like metals said, carpentry skill for being able to see straight and plumb lines is a good thing when falling timber). As far as the gunsticks...def. meant for bigger timber, and I would think the longer gunsticks would be more accurate, as long as you could hold em steady while gunning. I know someone is going to patent my laser sights someday. Just like my pump-up cork boots!


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> *"how do you get into that i wanna cut on fireline."*
> 
> To get on the fireline is one thing.
> 
> ...



Northwest Timber Fallers sounds like a good outfit. I have worked with the Ladies Husband who runs that outfit. Great people, and I am glad that they started something like that. It is nice to see that there is somewhere that a good Timber Faller can go and put their skills to use.


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## Metals406 (Aug 7, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> Yes most chainsaw bars have a curve, especially the longer ones. I have an old rebuilt 54" General bar and it has some significant belly in it; that is why when gunning with it I make an imaginary straight line down the center of the bar and line that up with each corner of my undercut(like metals said, carpentry skill for being able to see straight and plumb lines is a good thing when falling timber). As far as the gunsticks...def. meant for bigger timber, and I would think the longer gunsticks would be more accurate, as long as you could hold em steady while gunning. I know someone is going to patent my laser sights someday. Just like my pump-up cork boots!



Okay, this I got to hear. . . Like the old pump tennis shoes?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

i dont have an uncle to hook me up....or even know anyone... ####ing #### im gonna be to beat to hell to cut on fireline by the time i aquire the experience and hookups for that. :censored:


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Okay, this I got to hear. . . Like the old pump tennis shoes?


You bet! My buddies used to make fun of me for that one too. I experimented with this Idea my first year in Alaska. I was wearing Wesco's and they would get wet and stretch every morning, so I would have to stop and lace them up tighter, soo...I cut the tongue out of an old pair of Reebok pumps that I had; inserted them in my boots on the front of my ankle and laced up my boots. When they would start feeling loose, I would reach down and pump em up...it was great! I also did not get marks on the front of my ankles anymore from having my boots laced up so tight. Eventually though my air bags started leaking, so I gave up on em. Always wondered why they make "air" shoes but not work boots. My problem of stretchy boot leather was solved when I bought a pair of Kuliens though.


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## Metals406 (Aug 7, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> You bet! My buddies used to make fun of me for that one too. I experimented with this Idea my first year in Alaska. I was wearing Wesco's and they would get wet and stretch every morning, so I would have to stop and lace them up tighter, soo...I cut the tongue out of an old pair of Reebok pumps that I had; inserted them in my boots on the front of my ankle and laced up my boots. When they would start feeling loose, I would reach down and pump em up...it was great! I also did not get marks on the front of my ankles anymore from having my boots laced up so tight. Eventually though my air bags started leaking, so I gave up on em. Always wondered why they make "air" shoes but not work boots. My problem of stretchy boot leather was solved when I bought a pair of Kuliens though.



Hmmmm, tis a good idea. You should take it to Nicks, or Wesco, or?? And have them make a prototype.

Comfortable work boots are a must when on your feet all day.


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## slowp (Aug 7, 2009)

On the boots, I'd like the calks to be retractable too. Push a button and in or out they go!

Becoming a faller on a fire crew is not easy, nor should it be. It used to be anybody who could carry a saw could get hired on a fire. Crews used to come out of the bars and get hired too. But people got hurt and killed.
If you want to do it, first get on a crew. Ask around the DNR or Forest Service for info. There's lots of contract crews out there. You'll have to start out as a grunt, or gruntesse, and dig line. To become a faller is going to take skill and knowhow which equals falling for a few years. Our C fallers are good to watch. They've worked together for 25 years too. That should give you an idea of the skill you need to have. It takes patience, grasshopper. Patience and research on YOUR part.


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

> slowp said:
> 
> 
> > > On the boots, I'd like the calks to be retractable too. Push a button and in or out they go!
> ...


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## Tree Sling'r (Aug 7, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> Northwest Timber Fallers sounds like a good outfit. I have worked with the Ladies Husband who runs that outfit. Great people, and I am glad that they started something like that. It is nice to see that there is somewhere that a good Timber Faller can go and put their skills to use.



I am pretty decent friends with Ken Downhill as well, and I work for the competition, North Zone Fallers. They are good people unfortunatly politics make it hard for everyone to get along - no worries on my end though there is enough for everyone.

Anyway, the whole using your sights on your saw is not a science, it is actually really easy long bar or not. It is using your sights while compensating for bellies, leans and specific obstacles that makes it a science.

To many people over think their situations, they are afraid of failure. No books or videos and "C" faller classes are gonna make you a faller - go do it - many of you will find that you could not pack a real fallers gas and while you are still making your retarded conventional cut and your 2 inch step as well as hinge we have already dumped 10 trees and have already cut the fire line.


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## Metals406 (Aug 7, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> > I wanted that feature when I had drive in caulks and was falling right-of-way in Alaska, as we were walking a lot of shot rock roads. I did try to bungee a strip of leather on the bottoms but it didn't work out too good, although I am sure I would have came up with something, but I sent them back and got screw in caulks instead.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I thought you meant at first, retractable caulks. . . Now that would be awesome! No more changing boots out before and after work.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

someday i will get on fireline as a cutter. ill be the best.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Quick correction*

There are plenty of times where a Humboldt or other undercut has merit.

But; general rule is the conventional face - at standing height - is the safest when falling hazard trees.

Two reasons:
1) Looking up is easy,
2) Body posture presents a smaller target.

=============

Key point is 

DEATH FROM ABOVE

Staring at your face while bent over is retarded. Most face cuts will not squash you.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Each of you can argue this or watch the argument play out.............

But go out and cut either way and see for yourself which is the best for looking up.

Watch cutters who do one or the other. Study each cutters ability to be aware of overhead hazards within their technique.

======================

It takes less than 2 seconds for an unobstructed object to fall 50 feet and it is going 40 mph when it hits. You depending on a lookout or yourself?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> There are plenty of times where a Humboldt or other undercut has merit.
> 
> But; general rule is the conventional face - at standing height - is the safest when falling hazard trees.
> 
> ...



rarely is there a time when its not better to cut at breast height.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Green*

*"rarely is there a time when its not better to cut at breast height.*"

You can be in green healthy stands where there is virtually no danger of anything coming down and the limbs are smaller diameter with lots of obstacles and wind resistance.

Green tree spoiled is good living.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> *"rarely is there a time when its not better to cut at breast height.*"
> 
> You can be in green healthy stands where there is virtually no danger of anything coming down and the limbs are smaller diameter with lots of obstacles and wind resistance.
> 
> Green tree spoiled is good living.



it may just be preference but i find it easier and faster and more convenient to cut at breast height in green healthy timber. no matter how healthy the stand is your prolly gonna run into a few trees with broken tops hangin or big limbs.


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## palogger (Aug 7, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> someday i will get on fireline as a cutter. ill be the best.



im not trying to sound like an a** but somebody sounds a little "cocky". ive seen to many guys that act this way get hurt, because they seem to know it all and dont want to hear advice from anybody. Im not saying i know it all, cause i don't. As my grandfather once told me, the day you quit learning is the day they put you in the ground.

One word of advice i can give is listen to the old timers they know what they are talking about


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## oregoncutter (Aug 7, 2009)

*What?*



BarkBuster20 said:


> someday i will get on fireline as a cutter. ill be the best.



I am not trying to sound like a royal PECKER, but after reading some of You're posts I wonder if are You for real, or just someone kidding around? If that's You're real mindset You probably would'nt last long working near me. Litteraly. Arrogance and Ignorance are a bad combination!


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## GASoline71 (Aug 7, 2009)

palogger said:


> One word of advice i can give is listen to the old timers they know what they are talking about



...and park your truck where the fallers park theirs. 

Somebody had that as a sig line here... but it's an old line. 

Gary


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## oregoncutter (Aug 7, 2009)

*Some truth to that*



GASoline71 said:


> ...and park your truck where the fallers park theirs.
> 
> Somebody had that as a sig line here... but it's an old line.
> 
> Gary



I knew a guy from the riggin crew, that would park next to us in the mornings, and even drive up to the jobs. He also used to conversate with us over his co-workers. He finally got on the cutting side a few months after I left, his wife (ex-wife) as found out later made it a little sweeter deal for theBullbuck. Now he's back to setting chokers again.


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## Greystoke (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> There are plenty of times where a Humboldt or other undercut has merit.
> 
> But;
> 
> ...




I have fell countless dangerous snags in Southeast Alaska...by far the most dangerous snags of anywhere else I have been, and I am having trouble seeing how it can be any different using a conventional or humboldt undercut at breast height, by what you stated? Now, generally speaking, I would use a conventional undercut when falling a dangerous snag, not because I could not look up easier(because at waist or breast height, it does not matter what form of undercut I am using, I can see up just fine and can run like a rabbit either way), but because it was easier for me to get more material off of the face and in effect, less compression on the holding wood, and less chance of a blowup. Also, you don't have to worry about waste with a conventional cut on a snag as you absolutely do on a nice green tree.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Face cuts*

*"I have fell countless dangerous snags in Southeast Alaska...by far the most dangerous snags of anywhere else I have been, and I am having trouble seeing how it can be any different using a conventional or humboldt undercut at breast height, by what you stated? Now, generally speaking, I would use a conventional undercut when falling a dangerous snag, not because I could not look up easier(because at waist or breast height, it does not matter what form of undercut I am using, I can see up just fine and can run like a rabbit either way), but because it was easier for me to get more material off of the face and in effect, less compression on the holding wood, and less chance of a blowup. Also, you don't have to worry about waste with a conventional cut on a snag as you absolutely do on a nice green tree."*

=============

With most Humboldt undercut techniques there is a natural need to bend over toward the face. The higher the face overall to a standing position the lesser this tendency. 
If doing a back bar portion of the lower Humboldt face this tendency is removed.

I'll start posting some photos here to try and illustrate these thoughts.


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## Humptulips (Aug 7, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> ...and park your truck where the fallers park theirs.
> 
> Somebody had that as a sig line here... but it's an old line.
> 
> Gary



I've seen a couple cutters rigs with trees on top of them.
To every rule there is an exception.LOL


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> I've noticed a lot of guys want to rush through a larger diameter tree, like it's a 12" tree. . . Two different worlds there.
> 
> It's funny to watch someone rush through a tree, and really bugger things up. . . Mismatched face to backcut, prematurely cut (or real uneven) hold-wood, dutchman (accidentally). . . Rushing through a face and backcut is a real good way to smash something up.



I had the unusual opportunity to watch someone else drop a fire scarred redwood in the area I have been working. My friend Duane was cutting this goose pen redwood about 15' from a building. This pic is of him trimming his gunning cut. The tree still drifted slightly to the right because the hinge was a little to close to the burned out interior. Still, it made it to the ground with no damage.







We were talking about how with a more valuable tree it may be beneficial to build a nice bed and really clean out the lay of anything that could cause breakage. These redwoods break easily compared to a Doug fir. I've never done it old school and built a lay like that.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Neck exposure*

This powerpoint slide made to a regular photo shows the two real problems with focus on the face. The cutter here is doing an open face.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> I've seen a couple cutters rigs with trees on top of them.
> To every rule there is an exception.LOL



As long as it is someone else's truck it's OK. LOL.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> To many people over think their situations, they are afraid of failure. No books or videos and "C" faller classes are gonna make you a faller - go do it - many of you will find that you could not pack a real fallers gas and while you are still making your retarded conventional cut and your 2 inch step as well as hinge we have already dumped 10 trees and have already cut the fire line.



Does this mean I can't watch your videos on Youtube now? :greenchainsaw: I agree that there is a world of difference between you pro fallers and those of us who hack around in the woods.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 7, 2009)

I am not the most technical sounding guy for sure, but speaking for myself working on the bottom cut on a Humboldt at breast height, most the time without alot of effort I can see pretty good above me and still line up pretty good. The rest of the outlooks I pretty much agree with, just have to take em all on a case by case basis theres no set rule for the safestest most effcient, accurrate way to fall all trees in all situations. Intuition from a good brain, and alot of experience ought to tell ya what to do in each situation.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Open Face from above sighting*

Here is another open face slide.

They like to do their angled cut first and use it for sighting.

This is more difficult as:
1) One cannot adjust once started,
2) Lots of concentration required,
3) Looking from above means less accuracy,
4) The angling of the saw twice means you have to hold the saw perfectly level or the sights point to different targets.

Look at the sights from the cameras perspective and note how they point differently. It is slight but to remove this requires explanation/training/experience. (Picture the bar tip just slightly lower)


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Any focus*

Here is an example of a conventional being made where a correction was needed.

More time in the danger zone, yes the Agency C cutters are certainly more prone to this.

The point here should be with any concentration on the face there is a loss of vertical awareness.

This sawyer is 6 foot 8 and this cut should clearly have been higher.

There is a strong tendency among FS cutters to sort of go low but not achieve anything. Stump still isn't short and body posture is poor for several reasons.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> Here is another open face slide.
> 
> They like to do their angled cut first and use it for sighting.
> 
> ...



Looks like he is ready for golfing with a chainsaw.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*More looking up*

Here is a cutter who could have started the face at a slightly higher spot and found it easier to look up.
I think you can see that looking at the pic.
-------------
Really thinking out the placement of your cuts can make it easier/safer. Looking, up, quick escape posture, comfort, wind blowing chips/dust into face, driving wedges and more make thinking out the heights of cuts important.

The second photo shows the backcut going in and the third shows a bit of the powerhead sighting versus the tree lay. (The snag here rolled slightly so its exaggerated.)


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*Found it*

Here is a powerpoint that shows the powerhead thing.

These are converted to pics and lo res but if anyone wants a copy of any of these I'd be glad to e-mail them.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*just a little higher*

One photo shows the cutter at a perfect height for looking up and posture while the other is just a few inches too low.

You do want your knees slightly bent but if possible everything else vertical.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 7, 2009)

IN respose to more looking up!
Yeah I agree he could've been up a little higher to make it easier to look up, but given his stature it looks to me like that's overall a pretty comfortable position for him, I know I wouldn't want to be working up much more than that, especially all day. I understand the safety factor You're getting across, and think You bring a good true point to light. I about got sick the other day I went into my local Stihl shop to get some parts, a new salesman approached me with a 460 in his fat hands, and said You need this saw for around the farm, I was dressed in clean nice clothes, he told me the sights on it make it real easy to put a tree where You want it, and how easy it is to start. He had no idea if I even knew how to start one. I told him to F off and walked away. I think he knows me now. I remember a time when they didn't have fancy sights on the saws like they do now.


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## Tree Sling'r (Aug 7, 2009)

Smokechase, you and I have gone at it before and I admit that you are a good guy, but you over analyze everything.
You would not make it my world, and I would not make it yours.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*I've seen you cut*

You had a video of cutting down a dead doug.

You're much better than I.

=============

But I didn't have to worry about you in my day.
When you worry about lesser experienced types you want to give them the safest easiest to be safe stuff.
So that's my excuse.


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## smokechase II (Aug 7, 2009)

*The safest thing*

For a learning cutter viewing this thread please make the say no and bring in a bonded pro decision when there is any reason to be concerned with a particular tree or stand.

Thanks


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 7, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> IN respose to more looking up!
> Yeah I agree he could've been up a little higher to make it easier to look up, but given his stature it looks to me like that's overall a pretty comfortable position for him, I know I wouldn't want to be working up much more than that, especially all day. I understand the safety factor You're getting across, and think You bring a good true point to light. I about got sick the other day I went into my local Stihl shop to get some parts, a new salesman approached me with a 460 in his fat hands, and said You need this saw for around the farm, I was dressed in clean nice clothes, he told me the sights on it make it real easy to put a tree where You want it, and how easy it is to start. He had no idea if I even knew how to start one. I told him to F off and walked away. I think he knows me now. I remember a time when they didn't have fancy sights on the saws like they do now.



something simular happened to me a few months back but i told the fat #### to #### off before he could give me a sales pitch. i was walking back to the counter to pay for a new bar i had already picked out before he had caught up to me. then he asks "oh ya got a 36 inch cannon bar huh?" and i had a 30 inch cannon bar in my hand, he never got a response out of me. i cant stand being jumped as soon as i walk in the door.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 8, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> For a learning cutter viewing this thread please make the say no and bring in a bonded pro decision when there is any reason to be concerned with a particular tree or stand.
> 
> Thanks




That cures up alot of it!


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## Greystoke (Aug 8, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Smokechase, you and I have gone at it before and I admit that you are a good guy, but you over analyze everything.
> You would not make it my world, and I would not make it yours.



:agree2:I guarantee I can stand with good posture while making a humboldt with a dangerous widow maker or whatever else in it...I have done it thousands of times. Sling'r is bang on...I would have never made it in your world, which is why I never wanted to fall timber on a fire, because I did not want somebody trying to tell me how it is done out of a government manual, as I learned from the best fallers in the world...hands down.


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> :agree2:I guarantee I can stand with good posture while making a humboldt with a dangerous widow maker or whatever else in it...I have done it thousands of times. Sling'r is bang on...I would have never made it in your world, which is why I never wanted to fall timber on a fire, because I did not want somebody trying to tell me how it is done out of a government manual, as I learned from the best fallers in the world...hands down.


i have fell few a few years,and take pride in my cuts being spot on,got on a fire a few years back and got to watch a hotshot go for his "cfaller certification"over 2'dbh?i could be wrong,anyhow the guy certifying this guy you could just tell was green,so anyways the guy nailed the cut lay etc,he even lined the backcut up flush or even a chain width low wich brings up that fine fiber on the hinge,i thought he did good,well greeny flunked the guy,couldnt believe it!the guy knew i had done some falling and asked me what he did wrong,i told him not a firkin thing!this was the guys second try and he was the best faller i had seen in a burn to this day.


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## Metals406 (Aug 8, 2009)

Another thing to point out is stump hight limitations, especially on a FS contract. Max stump hight of 12" on grade, or 12" high-side on a slope. I'm 6'-4", so I'll be cutting on one knee for that.

DBH cut's would be nice, though you're leaving a lot of wood there; whether for milling, firewood, etc.

I do high-stump sometimes, though it's situational, and for different reasons.

There has been no bad info on this thread so far, all of it is pertinent in it's own application.


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## Metals406 (Aug 8, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> i have fell few a few years,and take pride in my cuts being spot on,got on a fire a few years back and got to watch a hotshot go for his "cfaller certification"over 2'dbh?i could be wrong,anyhow the guy certifying this guy you could just tell was green,so anyways the guy nailed the cut lay etc,he even lined the backcut up flush or even a chain width low wich brings up that fine fiber on the hinge,i thought he did good,well greeny flunked the guy,couldnt believe it!the guy knew i had done some falling and asked me what he did wrong,i told him not a firkin thing!this was the guys second try and he was the best faller i had seen in a burn to this day.



Heard them kind of stories more than once. . . Rookies certifying guys that are real pro fallers.


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Heard them kind of stories more than once. . . Rookies certifying guys that are real pro fallers.


well the rookie was certainly a rookie,and the guy was no pro but you can tell when a guy has done his homework,what i think the difference in the woods and the burn,is how much time is allowed for falling,if i took that long to sum up a two foot sugarpine?ya not good,anyways i seen mecicans one cut trees bigger than that


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## Metals406 (Aug 8, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> well the rookie was certainly a rookie,and the guy was no pro but you can tell when a guy has done his homework,what i think the difference in the woods and the burn,is how much time is allowed for falling,if i took that long to sum up a two foot sugarpine?ya not good,anyways i seen mecicans one cut trees bigger than that



Yeah, a guy can really over-analyze the cut and drop, I'm even guilty of it. . . I'm an anal person, and it comes out in my work. I do it in carpentry, welding, and falling trees.

I like making good stumps, and hitting the mark. . . Adding speed to it is definitely a bonus.


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2009)

Yes, on a timber sale, NOT a fire, you need to have stumps under 12 inches
measured on the high side of the hill. I've listed the acceptable reasons to have higher stumps before, there are times/situations when stumps will be high. But if you were cutting each tree at dbh, we'd be having a talk about it, and you might be going home early.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 8, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Smokechase, you and I have gone at it before and I admit that you are a good guy, but you over analyze everything.
> You would not make it my world, and I would not make it yours.



It was nice you alll can handle being critical, yet friendly.

Since I come from open face country-you can adjust your aim cause once you're a little in your vertical face cut you can.ouble check your aim and start over if its a hair off from what you intended

I am usually on steep ground. I am usually facing and most of my boring on the "bad" downhill side under the lean.(cause I'm sidesloping, to whatever degree I want). That way I can stand while doing these things. If on uphill side, facing is on one knee, and boring is all bent over. Either way, then you get behind the tree, nip the holding wood and escape. Low stumps either way, unless obvious signs of decay down low.

Don't cut much from under the lean unless you really know how to identify good hingewood, how much lean is too much, know your alternative escape routes. But for a productiuon faller, ride that skillset to up production. As identifiable hazards multiply, we go clser and closer to "by the book".


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Yeah, a guy can really over-analyze the cut and drop, I'm even guilty of it. . . I'm an anal person, and it comes out in my work. I do it in carpentry, welding, and falling trees.
> 
> I like making good stumps, and hitting the mark. . . Adding speed to it is definitely a bonus.



i hear you,that is a very good trait to have pride breeds quality work,and once you can add in a little speed thats even better,i never "really"learned how to fall until i skidded for a few years,now i can skid my own stuff real good,get double sometime triple chokes,coming off the hill sometimes with 12 14 logs on a ten choke cat because i know where the bucks and stumps are in my mind


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## smokechase II (Aug 8, 2009)

*Advantages*

*"Since I come from open face country-you can adjust your aim cause once you're a little in your vertical face cut you can.ouble check your aim and start over if its a hair off from what you intended."*

==============

The advantages to faces other than open face is that you only have to concentrate once on the direction, at the finish of the horizontal cut. Plus you can really fine tune it by looking down the sights toward the target.

Looking at where open face technique came from one can see why it could be the way it is.

Smaller diameter trees in second growth stands and shorter in Northern Latitudes. This means accuracy 140 feet out isn't an issue etc. So sighting from above in a managed (reasonably well spaced) forest is generally OK.
{Also, the hazards in a managed second growth forest are far less.}

================

Annie Oakley shot from the hip and was accurate. Seriously accurate. I've seen some expert marksmen on TV that just amazed me. They aren't looking down the sights at the target.
No doubt there are many that do the Open Face well for accuracy.

I'm just trying to promote "*Don't make it difficult*". Expecting everyone to do it the hard way doesn't make sense.



So on the tree by tree size up. Consider how difficult a technique could be.


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## smokechase II (Aug 8, 2009)

*Terminology*

*Bad side of the tree.*

=============

*"I am usually on steep ground. I am usually facing and most of my boring on the "bad" downhill side under the lean.*


You've found what works for you and that is more than fine.

But Open Face terminology is making a mistake refering to the compression side of a tree as the bad side.
Focus here is on difficulty and not danger.
Being a safety guy I've gotta ask for some relief on that. For one thing it gives the impression that the good side of a tree is good to work on. That could well be the side with hazards that must be avoided. Neither side may be 'good'.

===================

Let's look at training for fallers in the US.

I think its a serious enough of a job that it should be similar to what an Electrician goes through. 

For Fallers I would suggest: Classroom/field basic certification/journeyman for at least two years/field final certification. I think BC is doing something similar, although most who have done the job would want more field experience than they require for newbees.

Without the field experience putting folks through four layers of GOL they could become believers in what they have been taught but ignorant of what is available elsewhere.

Good and bad side terms that don't deal with safety?
Come on?


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## Metals406 (Aug 8, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, on a timber sale, NOT a fire, you need to have stumps under 12 inches
> measured on the high side of the hill. I've listed the acceptable reasons to have higher stumps before, there are times/situations when stumps will be high. But if you were cutting each tree at dbh, we'd be having a talk about it, and you might be going home early.



Yup, that's what I was saying--that's why I said FS contracts. The DBH cutting can be a limited use technique.

You and I have spoken about acceptable high-stumping before, one of which was decking logs on the downhill side of the road, when no landing space is available. . . I've done that many times.

Smoke has made a lot of good points about looking up. . . I think he posted a video once, about how fast branches and tops can get ya. . . In the video, they used a spotter with an airhorn, and it wasn't fast enough to alert the sawyer. The only thing that worked the best was the sawyer looking up, and that was nip-tuck.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm with you dude


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## Gologit (Aug 8, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, on a timber sale, NOT a fire, you need to have stumps under 12 inches
> measured on the high side of the hill. I've listed the acceptable reasons to have higher stumps before, there are times/situations when stumps will be high. But if you were cutting each tree at dbh, we'd be having a talk about it, and you might be going home early.



_Now _ I know how to get off work early.


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## 2dogs (Aug 8, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Yup, that's what I was saying--that's why I said FS contracts. The DBH cutting can be a limited use technique.
> 
> You and I have spoken about acceptable high-stumping before, one of which was decking logs on the downhill side of the road, when no landing space is available. . . I've done that many times.
> 
> Smoke has made a lot of good points about looking up. . . I think he posted a video once, about how fast branches and tops can get ya. . . In the video, they used a spotter with an airhorn, and it wasn't fast enough to alert the sawyer. The only thing that worked the best was the sawyer looking up, and that was nip-tuck.



Look at some Sim-Limb videos and you can see why I try to stand up when falling snags. Live healthy trees are another matter. They get a low Humboldt.


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## smokechase II (Aug 8, 2009)

*He was right*

Here are a couple pics showing that part of the falling world that TreeSlingr said he couldn't make it in:

Just to give the Forest Circus some credit.


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

good thing jeff s had his hardhat on,haha


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## Metals406 (Aug 8, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Look at some Sim-Limb videos and you can see why I try to stand up when falling snags. Live healthy trees are another matter. They get a low Humboldt.



:agree2:


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 8, 2009)

good point on DBH cuts when it comes to fireline. never considered that.


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 8, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?



im not smoke...but when you say "top" notch do you mean open face? and the humboldt is pretty standard. i wish you would have expanded on what you were trying to say. theres a reason there isnt just one way to notch a tree, every situation, and every tree is different. most trees can be safely fell with an open face.


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## char (Aug 8, 2009)

You can easily go to a knee and look up just as easily doing a humboldt as with a conventional. Just my .02

FS certifiers generally frown upon taking a knee, but I personally can move just as fast from a one-knee down position as I can standing up. It is really dependent on the situation though. I can look "over" at my bar tip instead of looking down as well. Less time spent checking the bar tip. 


Terrain can also dictate that you use a humboldt, so it is good to be versed in both methods. 

I'd say you see more "uneven" holding wood on trees cut on the fireline as well. Usually my objective once it starts to go is not to chase the tree to get perfect holding wood, but to get out from under whatever is going to break out. It depends on the tree though. Tops, limbs, etc break out of burning or weakened trees quite often. 

I'm constantly harping on my guys to "look up." Usually the trees available to cut are snags, but it is better to train someone on green trees where the hazard from falling debris tends to be lower.


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> im not smoke...but when you say "top" notch do you mean open face? and the humboldt is pretty standard. i wish you would have expanded on what you were trying to say. theres a reason there isnt just one way to notch a tree, every situation, and every tree is different. most trees can be safely fell with an open face.


my bad its clear to me what i am saying but i know how lingo differs,to me in my area,conventional notch is 1 horizontal direction cut,and one cut from above meeting the initial directional cut,humboldt being same directional cut but cutting from the underside of that to meet the initial directional cut,and finally what i call an open face is putting both of these cuts in a tree when you dont even want the notch to close,free fall...


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 8, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> my bad its clear to me what i am saying but i know how lingo differs,to me in my area,conventional notch is 1 horizontal direction cut,and one cut from above meeting the initial directional cut,humboldt being same directional cut but cutting from the underside of that to meet the initial directional cut,and finally what i call an open face is putting both of these cuts in a tree when you dont even want the notch to close,free fall...



thanks for clarifying


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## smokechase II (Aug 8, 2009)

*Stuff*

*?smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?"*

===================

I disagree on the "humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not".

I think by the time you figure in the height of the face and any off lean and tapered hinge............

There can be forgiveness in certain techniques. Understood.

I think the advantage the Humboldt has that you may be referring to is how the butt will drop away quickly. But if that occurs, as it is likely with too much holding wood cut off, there can be a loss of control.

The hinge is the primary control of direction - working with the face.
If the hinge control is compromised often all bets are off.

==================

With regard to teaching technique.

It varies with location and instructor.

Some places are my way or the highway.

However, most are whatever works for you. Just do it well.
Instructors like Doug Dent have no problem with conventional for non-commercial felling.

====================

What I'm suggesting is that there is forgiveness also built into the conventional because it is easier to look up. I went through a round hard hat every tree a Humboldt decade but I look back on that as a mistake.

I think one needs to be good at every technique on a tree by tree basis.


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## char (Aug 8, 2009)

Not to start anything here, but Dent frequently fails people and those same people turn around and get certified by another C-certifier later that same year. I personnally failed my eval with him a few years ago, then passed the next season. I did learn a bunch from being in the woods with him though. And in no way am I bashing him, just an observation. (Is the evaluation system screwed up for agency C-Fallers?)


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## redprospector (Aug 8, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> Let's look at training for fallers in the US.
> 
> I think its a serious enough of a job that it should be similar to what an Electrician goes through.
> 
> ...



That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training. 
The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
That only leaves the gubment, and I'd just as soon see them keep their noses out of private industry.

When I started falling timber it was on the job training. If you were lucky an "old timer" would take you under his wing, and teach you. The guy that taught me would look at some of the new guys and say that the only thing anyone should be showing them was how to flip burgers.
In my opinion more can be learned in 3 month from an old timer, than 2 years in a classroom.

Andy


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

redprospector said:


> That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
> Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
> The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
> There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
> ...



well said andy...you notice how big the circus is these days every 3rd car i pass is f.s.green,and theres alot of cars these days...


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## redprospector (Aug 8, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> well said andy...you notice how big the circus is these days every 3rd car i pass is f.s.green,and theres alot of cars these days...



Yep, I noticed that.
This is a tourist town, and we've got more FS employee's than tourist. 

Andy


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> *?smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?"*
> 
> ===================
> 
> ...


good deal,everyone is entitled to their opinion,this is just my interpretation on physics,they only reason i cut onventional is to get a lower stump cause im also a cat skinner,thats the only reason...


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## bullbuck (Aug 8, 2009)

redprospector said:


> Yep, I noticed that.
> This is a tourist town, and we've got more FS employee's than tourist.
> 
> Andy


haha those real estate agents better get the firk out the way,theres a new boss in town,,,ohhh hold on the only people that can afford a house here these days work for them?ok well fuk it wer skrewd...we have been owned


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 8, 2009)

hm well it would be nice to get on the job training from an old timer but its nearly impossible to even get a job setting chokers, i know iv been around harrassing log companys, and there only cutting back. does this mean that young fallers are just going to be SOL when it comes to working?


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## GASoline71 (Aug 8, 2009)

Depends on your area... Up here in the North Sound of Washington state... not many guys are gettin' hired on.

But down in Central WA... there are jobs open. Especially for new chokers/chasers. We gotta have somebody to laugh at. 

Gary


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## Gologit (Aug 8, 2009)

redprospector said:


> That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
> Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
> The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
> There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
> ...



Well said. We deal with *enough* government in our work now, we don't need any more.

Smokechase is concerned with safety and I think we can all agree he has our best interests at heart. But...I don't need some government guy to tell me whether or not I'm good enough to fall timber. The years and the stumps have already said all that needs to be said about my qualifications.

Younger guys are always coming around wanting to learn to fall timber. Like Andy says...some of them ought to be flipping burgers but every once in awhile a good one comes along. I, and all the other guys with gray hair and wrinkles, can teach them what they need to know. Let's keep the government out of it.


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## Metals406 (Aug 8, 2009)

redprospector said:


> That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
> Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
> The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
> There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
> ...





Gologit said:


> Well said. We deal with *enough* government in our work now, we don't need any more.
> 
> Smokechase is concerned with safety and I think we can all agree he has our best interests at heart. But...I don't need some government guy to tell me whether or not I'm good enough to fall timber. The years and the stumps have already said all that needs to be said about my qualifications.
> 
> Younger guys are always coming around wanting to learn to fall timber. Like Andy says...some of them ought to be flipping burgers but every once in awhile a good one comes along. I, and all the other guys with gray hair and wrinkles, can teach them what they need to know. Let's keep the government out of it.



:agree2: :agree2:


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2009)

Gologit said:


> _Now _ I know how to get off work early.



Yes, And then you create more work (job security?) for me cuz I usually have to write letters and such for giving you the rest of the day or week off. But never complain as you go home, about "There won't be enough money for Christmas because you shut us down. Our kids won't get any presents." 

Actually happened.



And, from observation and many years of being part of it, once you got the govt. involved, you have opened a big can of worms as far as training. Most of the fallers around here take it very seriously when they are training a new guy, and it seems to work. Each area has it's own methods and traditions and there's usually a good reason for doing it the local way.


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## 2dogs (Aug 9, 2009)

slowp said:


> And, from observation and many years of being part of it, once you got the govt. involved, you have opened a big can of worms as far as training. Most of the fallers around here take it very seriously when they are training a new guy, and it seems to work. Each area has it's own methods and traditions and there's usually a good reason for doing it the local way.



That can't be right. I saw on Ax Men how new employees are trained. The guy with the loudest voice yells at the new guy and tells him to go cut down a tree without killing himself.


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2009)

2dogs said:


> That can't be right. I saw on Ax Men how new employees are trained. The guy with the loudest voice yells at the new guy and tells him to go cut down a tree without killing himself.



Well, if it is on TV then it must be true.

Actually, my first day on a govt. thinning crew was similar. Without the yelling though. Here's the saw, here's how you start it, cut the trees at this spacing, don't get hurt, Bye Bye.

Things are different now.


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## bullbuck (Aug 9, 2009)

i will have to say i am purely self taught,once a couple of the old timers realized i had not killed myself yet,i guess they thought,"looks like this one might stick around for awhile"thats when i started to get advice or helpful hints,thats also when i started making more money cutting by the piece...


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## coastalfaller (Aug 9, 2009)

Here in BC we've been forced to deal with certification of our fallers for the past 6 years. Most people are still on the fence about how it's helped here, it has put safety on more people's radar, which is always a good thing. But it's also penalized those of us who were always breaking in new fallers the right way. We're simply not allowed to do it anymore. New fallers have to go through an intensive program in order to obtain certification, with no guarantee of work when they're done. It used to be we could pick who we thought would make a good faller, watch some rigging guys for awhile, etc. Then break the guy in. Now any Tom, ####, or Harry who has seen Axemen can go pay the money and become a "faller", and I use that term loosely, judging by some of the guys I've seen come through the course.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 9, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Depends on your area... Up here in the North Sound of Washington state... not many guys are gettin' hired on.
> 
> But down in Central WA... there are jobs open. Especially for new chokers/chasers. We gotta have somebody to laugh at.
> 
> Gary



you wont be laughin for long when im running circles around ya >.O lol im just kidding, sorta.
well i guess i really am joking at the moment, my kneecap is busted in half.


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## SURDO (Aug 9, 2009)

Becoming a C-faller for wildlandfire takes a lot of time and cooperation from whoever is overseeing you and signing off on your task book. I was fortunate enough to work at a Forest Service station with a number of veterans that had amazing credentials and task books that were willing to help me move up in the ranks. In order to become a C faller you need to cut on a number of major incidents but also be accompanied by supervisors that are willing to help you out. Just like any agency whether its local or federal you need to jump through a number of hoops in order to get qualified.


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## redprospector (Aug 9, 2009)

SURDO said:


> Becoming a C-faller for wildlandfire takes a lot of time and cooperation from whoever is overseeing you and signing off on your task book. I was fortunate enough to work at a Forest Service station with a number of veterans that had amazing credentials and task books that were willing to help me move up in the ranks. In order to become a C faller you need to cut on a number of major incidents but also be accompanied by supervisors that are willing to help you out. Just like any agency whether its local or federal you need to jump through a number of hoops in order to get qualified.



I never tried to learn all the stuff the FS wants for it's different classes of fallers, and mine is probably no good anymore. But the last fire I worked on was the Scott Able fire in 2000, here in New Mexico. Two of the saw bosses I was working under could give certifications. We were conture falling some hills, and they kept pulling me off my area to go cut hazards in other fallers areas.  These guy's had been watching me pretty close, and at the end of the first week they gave me some papers and said that makes me a class C faller, and I could re-negotiate my wages. The contracting officer said all they would go for local fallers was $18 and hour + $36 a day for saw + nothing for truck or mileage. Boy, was I excited.  
That's the reason that the Scott Able fire was my last, and why FS certification dosen't mean much to me to this day.

Andy


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## tramp bushler (Aug 10, 2009)

*mmmmmmmm*

...... If I see another pic of someone running a saw not wearin spenders and wearin a c--k s----r hard hat .. Someone needs and edjucation on how to dress first .... Whats with the great big TALL faces ... Talk about limiting your time at the stump .... Get the f----n thing on the ground and that will limit your time standing under a widow maker Those govt. snags , were they doug fir , I ask because tho I can spot yellow and red fir very easily in a stack of lumber I,m frameing with .... I,ve never seen a Doug Fir tree and knew that was what I was lookin at .... . Went from Maine to Alaska ....Got no plan about takin s--t over that one .... Anyway , for starters you could drive a VW bug around in that (forest ), strip ???? ..... Tarzan , post some more fu--ed up ground S.E Alaska pictures . So hitting your lay , and limiting your time at the stump are the 2 main criteria .........The only purpose double facing a tree is to me , is to pull wood ,and to keep it as perfactly in it lay as possible when there are other factors in play , ,,side wind , limbed heavily to one side ... Or for me , way too many limbs that I don,t want to cut off the logs , so I keep the tree hooked to the stump while it falls so it can't parachute roll and cause me to work my a-- off limbing .... Sorry about that chaser ..Job security for you ya know :rockn:......
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. Depending on the diameter of the tree , , if I have to keep my eye on stuff up there I will kneel down with a foot planted under me and my run trail planned out and walked out ahead of time . If your up on spring boards , well you better have the plan for whats going to happen and what you are going to do when it does , already front and center ....... What is a class C faller .....Sounds like a Weyerhauser idea. or gaemint ....... 650 a day , how many days a week , or month .. How much do they get paid waiting to go to work , but not able to work their regular cuttin job ??????????

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. Lastly , I really like the pictures .. But those campground /park shots ,just aint my world of fallin timber ...


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## tramp bushler (Aug 18, 2009)

I think alot of the discussion on this was over analyzing ..And not enough concentration on getting the tree on the ground and on the hat ...... I never did see the pic of the guy using the sights on his saw .....


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