# Tie off knots for srt



## Adkpk (Mar 29, 2009)

What knots are used to anchor the line for srt? Good and bad and where and when they are used. Everyone has a different knot to anchor their lines before starting off on a rope to climb single static rope. It will help us new to srt to see what the pro's use. So far I have had 4 srt climbs and no incidents but have seen and learned that not one knot is always the right knot. So please include your bad tie offs too and why they are bad. Pics of course are very helpful. :camera:


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## Ghillie (Mar 29, 2009)

One method is to sling to the tree as your anchor and run your rope through a portawrap.

Advantage: if you need to come down now, your groundie can lower you out of the tree instead of you having to switch to a descend sytem.

You can also use a grigri or a figure eight descender (but you have to trust your groundie will know how to lock it off correctly)

Disadvantages: more hardware in the equation.

I will have some pics later.


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## md_tree_dood (Mar 29, 2009)

If you mean the tail end of your rope, half hitch and running bowline works fine. The port a wrap method works too but that's a bit overkill. If you mean backing up your ascenders, use a kleimheist or prussic with an extra wrap.


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## FlyingMonkey (Mar 29, 2009)

Double bowline with a double wrap around the tree. Than a biner connecting the knot to the up rope.


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## moss (Mar 29, 2009)

*Here are a few...*

Here are the three I use most of the time, I've used these types of tie-offs for many SRT climbs.

1. For a skinny enough tree or for tying off on a small tree next to large diameter tree.






2. A wider diameter tree, anchored on the trunk. That's a screwlink capturing the rope. The rope is crossed around the back of the trunk. F8 on a Bight backed with a Double Overhand, overkill I know but it makes me feel better when I'm doing an 80-90 ft. air climb.





3. Running bowline cinched on the TIP (the green Tachyon). The bowline has a Yosemite Backup (more to redirect the tail up than anything else) and backed with a double overhand above the bowline. 





-moss


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## Adkpk (Mar 29, 2009)

FlyingMonkey said:


> Double bowline with a double wrap around the tree. Than a biner connecting the knot to the up rope.



Welcome to the site FlyingMonkey. 



md_tree_dood said:


> If you mean backing up your ascenders, use a kleimheist or prussic with an extra wrap.



I mean the tail end of the rope.

I back up the ascenders with a blakes and my split tail. Which was proven. I bailed mid line yesterday from the TTMS. I put my line on an 8, stood on the lower biner and released the upper ascender. Then I just sat in the saddle while hanging on the blakes and released the lower biner.

But thread is about how to anchor the line not myself to the line. 



moss said:


> and backed with a double overhand above the bowline.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand the knot but tell me it not clear in the pic. Because it looks like after the yosemite the rope just comes over the horizon. The double overhand is out of view?


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## joesawer (Mar 29, 2009)

I mostly use a runing bowline. It is simple and has proven itself to me many times over.
It got a bad rep from the rock climbers becaus in their stiff ropes the half hitch would not stay bound around the bight consistantly. But with arbor lines it has never failed me.
If I was using modern mountianeering ropes I would use a figure eight because it has been proven to work in that situation.


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## moss (Mar 30, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> I understand the knot but tell me it not clear in the pic. Because it looks like after the yosemite the rope just comes over the horizon. The double overhand is out of view?



Hi Bob, yep the double overhand is out of view, that was the only photo I had handy at the moment.
-moss


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## Ghillie (Mar 30, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I use a running bowline with a double overhand in the tail of the bowline. I very rarely tie off at the ground and usually opt to tie in to a limb in the top of the tree. This of course means I do have to climb to my tie in point. I hardly ever use a chain saw on the way up, I leave it tied to my srt access line often using it to weight the line. I use the same rope for traditional rope climbing once I reach the top.



So you don't use a kernmantle rope for SRT?


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## moray (Mar 31, 2009)

I also like a separate, very strong sling for the anchor--no knots required. It allows me to install a belay device when showing a newbie the rudiments of SRT. If no belay device is involved, I use a butterfly or figure 8 for the loop on the end of the SRT line (or middle, for that matter) and use a screw link or locking steel biner to connect that to the sling. It sounds like a lot of stuff, but it is really very quick to set up.

Nice to hear you are finally attempting SRT!


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## Adkpk (Mar 31, 2009)

moray said:


> Nice to hear you are finally attempting SRT!



Thanks moray. It's a great stress reliever to pick any sturdy branch and go for it. Rather than trying to isolate two ends of the rope and set the friction saver to Ddrt. Not to mention the ease of using the ascenders.


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## Ghillie (Mar 31, 2009)

Here is a picture I took saturday at TreeStuff's climbing class. I thought I had more of the rigging but they did not come out or someone was clocking the shot. 







The initial tie-off os a grigri and he has it backed up with a munter on the 'biner.


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## Adkpk (Apr 1, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> Here is a picture I took saturday at TreeStuff's climbing class. I thought I had more of the rigging but they did not come out or someone was clocking the shot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well it's frictionless but an expensive looking tie off, no? Don't happen to know what knot that is tying off the tree wrap do you? Looks important and minimal to say the least compared to the costly friction reducing stuff.


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## Raymond (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm pretty old school when it comes to the STL. 
Looks like a bunch of monkey motion to me but 
I bet it saves on the life of a rope for sure.
What's the other advantages?


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## Ghillie (Apr 1, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Well it's frictionless but an expensive looking tie off, no? Don't happen to know what knot that is tying off the tree wrap do you? Looks important and minimal to say the least compared to the costly friction reducing stuff.








Is this the knot you are talking about?

I believe it is a six wrap prussik.

He is using this as the anchor for an adjustible false crotch in the tree (pin oak in need of pruning). He was showing one option for putting a DdRT into a tree that would take forever to isolate one good branch.

He put the SRT (technically it is SRT) line into the tree and atached a pulley to the terminal end. Then ran the DdRT line through the pulley and pulled the Tie in point up into the tree. Then you can proceed to work the tree from the bottom up.

An adjustable anchor (in this case) is almost a necessity but it also adds more hardware to the system.

This is just another option and after looking at it again, I can see some other options using an adjustible system (referring to the prussik, not the grigri) and a small anchor plate.


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## Adkpk (Apr 1, 2009)

Raymond said:


> I'm pretty old school when it comes to the STL.
> Looks like a bunch of monkey motion to me but
> I bet it saves on the life of a rope for sure.
> What's the other advantages?



What is STL?


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## randyg (Apr 1, 2009)

*What is STL?*



Adkpk said:


> What is STL?





A typo perhaps?????


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## Raymond (Apr 1, 2009)

randyg said:


> A typo perhaps?????







I Guess! I was working in the shop, playing on the computer 
and trying to not let my coffee get cold.
SRT, STL, STP, SNL


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## Adkpk (Apr 1, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> Is this the knot you are talking about?
> 
> I believe it is a six wrap prussik.
> 
> ...



That's a lot-a hardware to wind up with a friction hitch and no stopper knot, don't ya think? Even with a stopper knot if the hitch slipped...


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## Adkpk (Apr 1, 2009)

Raymond said:


> I'm pretty old school when it comes to the STL.
> Looks like a bunch of monkey motion to me but
> I bet it saves on the life of a rope for sure.
> What's the other advantages?



The best one for me is not need to isolate two lines. Find a sturdy branch, pull you line over it, tie off and up you go. The ascenders are the other part to making srt easier and more efficent but that's for another thread. I am looking for what climbers are using to tie off the end of the line.


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## Ghillie (Apr 1, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> That's a lot-a hardware to wind up with a friction hitch and no stopper knot, don't ya think? Even with a stopper knot if the hitch slipped...



Good eye! Yes I do think that is a lot of hardware just for SRT. And I would DEFINITELY put a stopper close to the final adjustment point of the prussik.

I would have to guess it was an oversite judging by the munter and tie off backup on the SRT line (why would he backup one and not the other).

Rich was trying to get a ton of info into a short time span. The whole class he stressed safety and simple backups like stoppers. It is still an oversight though.

Aaaaannnnnnddd, a good example of what can happen when you add more hardware to your rig. Little mistakes. that can make a BIG difference.

For what he was doing (AFC) and adjustable tie-off was not necessary but it was an option.


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## Ghillie (Apr 1, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> The best one for me is not need to isolate two lines. Find a sturdy branch, pull you line over it, tie off and up you go. The ascenders are the other part to making srt easier and more efficent but that's for another thread. I am looking for what climbers are using to tie off the end of the line.



Is there a specific problem you are trying to address or just trying to fill your "tool box" with options?


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## Adkpk (Apr 1, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> Is there a specific problem you are trying to address or just trying to fill your "tool box" with options?



Nothing specific, I would get specific if I had a need. Just shopping around looking and testing. Also thought it would make for some interesting postings. 

Not all tree and circumstances in srt are the same. Smooth barked trees must pose a slippery challenge. Don't see any smooth bark tie off's yet but moss has several options which look like they would work. I've seen a tie off that moray did way back when but really don't how to begin to look for it. But as he stated he likes to use a separate line to rap the tree with. It was a sharp looking tie off that's for sure. 

I get the filling your tool box comment but more like honing in on the best options. Keep the tie ins coming. 

So far my bag of "things I don't need is to take with me" is only some 3 strand for making lanyards and my splicing kit.


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## moss (Apr 2, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Don't see any smooth bark tie off's yet but moss has several options which look like they would work.



the two trunk ties I showed work very well on smooth bark. Once you load the rope everything holds tight, there's plenty of friction.
-moss


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## moss (Apr 2, 2009)

*Smooth barked trees*

In particular the tie-off that uses 2 or 3 half hitches around the trunk above a timber hitch would probably hold on a polished stainless steel vertical cylinder. But it's best used when you're tying off on a small diameter trunk next to the tree you're climbing, uses too much rope on a wide diameter trunk.
-moss


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## moss (Apr 2, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> About tying off to a small tree near a the large one being climbed:
> 
> If it's a real windy day don't be surprised if you get a little srt rope movement as the tree sways. I've only had it happen a few times and it's been minor but when climbing right up to the crotch it does give a climber something to think about. If a large gust were to hit could the climber be pulled up to the crotch? Through the crotch? An over vivid imagination? Most likely!



Well, that could happen theoretically, never occurred to me  I've been up in 45 mph wind to a plus 100 ft TIP on trunk tie and there was plenty of movement, side-to side and rotating (crown) but minimal up and down (rope movement). I would be sure to lanyard in in high wind anyway if I was near the TIP

EDIT: oops, faulty recollection, that was a cinched limb tie-in so TreeCo's scenario is more valid than I first thought
-moss


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## moray (Apr 2, 2009)

This is an interesting point about the wind. Just one more of the MANY ways SRT is more complicated, and, in many respects, more hazardous than DRT. DRT is very forgiving; SRT will bite you in a second. Someone should start a thread about the numerous special concerns and hazards of SRT, or has this been done already?


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## pdqdl (Apr 2, 2009)

I like Moss's 1/2 hitch method. Everybody should rely on that more often.

Finish with a full wrap and two half hitches, running bowline, figure 8, whatever you like.


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## Adkpk (Apr 2, 2009)

moray said:


> This is an interesting point about the wind. Just one more of the MANY ways SRT is more complicated, and, in many respects, more hazardous than DRT. DRT is very forgiving; SRT will bite you in a second. Someone should start a thread about the numerous special concerns and hazards of SRT, or has this been done already?



Got my attention. I climbed srt yesterday with a storm-a-brewing and the only problem I had was when it started to rain. How about "hazards and special concerns with climbing srt". Ok that sounds good, I'll post it.


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## moss (Apr 2, 2009)

I look at SRT and DRT as apples and oranges, one is better than the other depending on circumstances. For tree entry SRT has some ergonomic advantage over secured footlock, especially if it's a long haul going up. You folks likely know I'm a rec climber so my requirements are going to be a little different. I like DRT up in the crown so I'll use SRT to get into a tree where the first ascent is going to be in the 60-70'+ range, then switch over to DRT. The SRT line just stays where it is until I want to get out of the tree. Going up SRT I trail the DRT rope behind me with the top of the rope attached to my harness w/split tail and biner so when I get into the tree I just flip the biner/top of the DRT rope over a branch, clip in, detach from the SRT system and keep climbing.
-moss


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## Adkpk (Apr 2, 2009)

moss said:


> Going up SRT I trail the DRT rope behind me with the top of the rope attached to my harness w/split tail and biner so when I get into the tree I just flip the biner/top of the DRT rope over a branch, clip in, detach from the SRT system and keep climbing.
> -moss


 
I'll use that piece of info. Good idea. I think I'm going to try going back to the vt since I am ascending on the TTMS now. The vt was to short or to much going on using it to ascend. But in the canopy it would be handier to have the hitch closer to my dee ring. And if I keep it on my climbing line, as moss stated, I won't be bothered with tying a hitch up in the tree. good one moss. 

Plus, I have another hank of rope coming. That way I can keep one rope specifically for canopy climbing. One for srt and one for ddrt.


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## Ghillie (Apr 2, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> I'll use that piece of info. Good idea. I think I'm going to try going back to the vt since I am ascending on the TTMS now. The vt was to short or to much going on using it to ascend. But in the canopy it would be handier to have the hitch closer to my dee ring. And if I keep it on my climbing line, as moss stated, I won't be bothered with tying a hitch up in the tree. good one moss.
> 
> Plus, I have another hank of rope coming. That way I can keep one rope specifically for canopy climbing. One for srt and one for ddrt.



What rope are you using for SRT?

The only ropes I have climbed SRT were PMI ez-bend 1/2" static kernmantle and I believe the other was New England KMIII but that has been a few years ago when I was getting into High Angle rescue techniques.


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## Adkpk (Apr 2, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> What rope are you using for SRT?
> 
> The only ropes I have climbed SRT were PMI ez-bend 1/2" static kernmantle and I believe the other was New England KMIII but that has been a few years ago when I was getting into High Angle rescue techniques.



Lava from sherrill, true blue and I have a hank of blaze coming in the mail.


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## Ghillie (Apr 3, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Ghillie I just realized I missed a question you asked me a few days ago. Sorry about that. I climb srt on NE saftey Blue. I also have a 240ft. hank of NE KMIII that gets pulled out once a month or so. Ascenders work fine on 1/2 HiVee.



No problem. That's what I was wondering about, mech ascenders on 16 strand. I didn't want to put money into a dedicated SRT rope.

It's been so long I think it might have been KMII that I last used.

I'll have to look for the pictures of that school. The last day, we set up a traverse between the top of two 10 story towers. sent someone out to the middle, lowered them doen to ground level and then raised a simulated injured person and the rescuer back up and back over to the "landing sone". Really cool class. Taught by Russ Borne at Bowling Green Fire School.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 3, 2009)

I usually only srt for spikeless pruning on that dead damaged limb way up there. Big shot over a good limb, set the running bowline, get up there, switch to drt, get r' done, back to the srt and ride down on the 8. Here is the trick: tie my throwline to the bowline loop before I start my decent so once I am down I can pull the whole thing out of the tree. Only got stuck once and had to go back up:

Crotch selection, crotch selection, crotch selection!

Static kernmantle 1/2" and 120'

Some pretty fancy and complicated pics on this here thread. I would be hesitant to put a bight of rope through a pawl like that though. Metal against metal can create sharp edges that in a dynamic loading situation would slice right through rope. Same reason they advise against connecting rope directly to pulley becketts.


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## treemandan (Apr 3, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> About tying off to a small tree near a the large one being climbed:
> 
> If it's a real windy day don't be surprised if you get a little srt rope movement as the tree sways. I've only had it happen a few times and it's been minor but when climbing right up to the crotch it does give a climber something to think about. If a large gust were to hit could the climber be pulled up to the crotch? Through the crotch? An over vivid imagination? Most likely!



Oh that, yeah, well you get used to it. I go right up to the crotch the rope is draped through. Sometimes use the sway to put me above, of course the lanyard is working too.


Mostly its just drape the rope, tie it off at the bottom (RB) and head up. I know you know that ball hitch get use too. I will go out and work as I go up. Sometimes I only need a high tie in to get low stuff. As long as your mechanical device is backed up with a friction hitch what could go wrong? I don't know.

I have broken branches and dropped a few times, no big deal as the set up usually has other branches to catch you, its fun, you don't die... as long as you back up you device and use you lanyard like you should. Best not to take chances with this chit.


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## treemandan (Apr 3, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> I usually only srt for spikeless pruning on that dead damaged limb way up there. Big shot over a good limb, set the running bowline, get up there, switch to drt, get r' done, back to the srt and ride down on the 8. Here is the trick: tie my throwline to the bowline loop before I start my decent so once I am down I can pull the whole thing out of the tree. Only got stuck once and had to go back up:
> 
> Crotch selection, crotch selection, crotch selection!
> 
> ...




I think that was just to hold the rope from getting lost being tied like that, I thought so.
A lot of times I don't switch sysytems for the quick limb out of the tree.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't know Dan, looked like an anchor point for line going up and over a crotch in the tree. It would be easier to hitch it onto a Dingo or something....
hmmm......I seem to remember you taking some flack for that a while back....still got that pic?:greenchainsaw:


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## Ghillie (Apr 3, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> I don't know Dan, looked like an anchor point for line going up and over a crotch in the tree. It would be easier to hitch it onto a Dingo or something....
> hmmm......I seem to remember you taking some flack for that a while back....still got that pic?:greenchainsaw:



You mean this one?


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## Ghillie (Apr 3, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> *clip*
> Some pretty fancy and complicated pics on this here thread. I would be hesitant to put a bight of rope through a pawl like that though. Metal against metal can create sharp edges that in a dynamic loading situation would slice right through rope. Same reason they advise against connecting rope directly to pulley becketts.



Are you talking about the picture I posted running through the anchor plate?

Good question. I will have to see what petzl says.


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## Adkpk (Apr 3, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> I would be hesitant to put a bight of rope through a pawl like that though. Metal against metal can create sharp edges that in a dynamic loading situation would slice right through rope. Same reason they advise against connecting rope directly to pulley becketts.



I don't see a problem with that. I don't have one of those pawls(?), anchor plate, but I assume they have smooth edges. What's metal to metal the biner to the plate? Do you mean if the plate had damage done to it?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 4, 2009)

Timber Hitch, first crossing across Standing going over, with a Round Turn rather than Simple Turn around the Standing (at first crossing)for strength(and security too, by reducing tension under nipping at first tucking-but keeping nip tension same), then come over the wrap before serving under for first tuck(more security by reducing frictions before first tuck and placing first tuck away from Standing-where forces can pull trap of turns off of nipping of that tuck) , then at some more tucks leading to a finish (or at least pass by with a tuck) 5o'clock around from a 12o'clock Standing. all tucks at firm, convex locations.

Without the round Turn, it is easier to turn into a Muenter for lowering though. All these could have trouble on taper reducing, so best at imperfection, straight or swell (taper increasing) else, small tucked in small humboldts(to resist upward pulls) on removals. This all has 2xPotential on TIP. This can be rduced by more open angle, and/or more frictions at/before TIP.


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## treemandan (Apr 4, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> You mean this one?



That is the one. I don't use the truck to pull myself up unless I have pulleys installed to save the friction. It would be just plain stupid not to use pulleys and pull through a bare crotch.
Yes, I have be "flamed" for the ball hitch but by those from a lesser Dan. Sure, if some half-wit was messing around like this he would die, we all know that.


A undressed clove







A hearty tug









The disclaimer

Not recomended.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 4, 2009)

i think it should lace to another lower and or backward position to lock more positively. Just because it locks on a steady pull in 1 direction, doesn't promise it would lock during intermittent, impacting pulls of possibly chaning direction.


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## treemandan (Apr 4, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Just trying to look out for the kids............
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Luv ya bub


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## pdqdl (Apr 4, 2009)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> ...
> 
> Without the round Turn, it is easier to turn into a Muenter for lowering though. All these could have trouble on taper reducing, so best at imperfection, straight or swell (taper increasing) else, small tucked in small humboldts(to resist upward pulls) on removals. This all has 2xPotential on TIP. This can be rduced by more open angle, and/or more frictions at/before TIP.



How would a timber hitch turn into a Muenter? 

Otherwise: TreeSpyder, we love your insight and knowledge. I love your website. Could you occasionally make your posts easier to read? You have tendency to introduce disparate thoughts with little elaboration in a fast paced, continuous stream that the rest of us have trouble following.


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## 046 (Apr 4, 2009)

good to know NE safety blue works well for SRT... that's one less piece of gear to buy... setting up for SRT. 



TreeCo said:


> Ghillie I just realized I missed a question you asked me a few days ago. Sorry about that. I climb srt on NE saftey Blue. I also have a 240ft. hank of NE KMIII that gets pulled out once a month or so. Ascenders work fine on 1/2 HiVee.


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## moray (Apr 4, 2009)

046 said:


> good to know NE safety blue works well for SRT... that's one less piece of gear to buy... setting up for SRT.



Well, yeah, ascenders work fine on 1/2 in rope. Descenders are another matter. There are very few choices for 1/2 inch.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 5, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> How would a timber hitch turn into a Muenter?



Pinch off at collar around Standing, and undo the 'loose splice' of the Timber, that is behind the 'Muenter' around the tree. Even easier if you make kinda a slipped Timber, and use a bight for the 'loose splice', then dog the Bitter End thru the Bight's mid point etc.

This 'Muenter' effect / stage of the Timber can also be found in a Slipped Cow, the slip, then locked off... Also in reverse (Muenter to Timber, instead of Timber to Muenter etc.), can be used for tightening / some lifting, by pulling Standing into tree as tight as possible, then, 'Muenter over/around' Standing; then use this Muenter to bend/ leverage the Standing, and pull the purchase thru to Bitter side. Then, slide arraingemeant back around away from you (around tree), and pull again to bend Standing. As the Standing tightens, thereby resisting bending more, therefore higher leveraged return each time you do this process. Then, finish with Timber, Cow, another Turn + 2 Halfs etc.

Hope that isn't tooo thick, but anyway; i see this adjust-able Muenter configuration at base of Cow, Timber (whose finishes are the 'soft lock', then 2 Half Hitches as a 'hard lock' to that).


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## Adkpk (Apr 5, 2009)

*keeper*

Simple and did the job. Easy to untie. White pine, ruff bark, 60' ft up twice because I put the rope through the friction saver rings backwards. I'll get some more pics up when get to a higher speed connection. Brand new Blaze rope. I was happy to get to do it twice. Belt is hanging in front of me in the living getting an accessory tune-up. 

Alpine butterfly and biner


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## Adkpk (Apr 5, 2009)

treemandan said:


>



Nice looking landscape there Dan. Looks well established.


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## moray (Apr 5, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Simple and did the job...



What happens to this nice rig when you get to the top and allow the rope to go slack? The biner and rope will fall down. When you retension the rope as you descend, will the anchor spontaneously assume the nice form it has in your picture? Could the vertical rope even end up leaning against the biner gate? I think you need an anchor that is guaranteed to keep its optimum configuration no matter what you do up in the tree.


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## Adkpk (Apr 5, 2009)

moray said:


> What happens to this nice rig when you get to the top and allow the rope to go slack? The biner and rope will fall down. When you retension the rope as you descend, will the anchor spontaneously assume the nice form it has in your picture? Could the vertical rope even end up leaning against the biner gate? I think you need an anchor that is guaranteed to keep its optimum configuration no matter what you do up in the tree.



Point taken and I will work on it but after all the pic was taken after the climb.


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## pdqdl (Apr 5, 2009)

A half hitch around the tree above that carabiner would take care of the slack problem. Much like Moss's first picture, but perhaps not quite so many trips around the tree.


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## pdqdl (Apr 5, 2009)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Pinch off at collar around Standing, and undo the 'loose splice' of the Timber, that is behind the 'Muenter' around the tree. Even easier if you make kinda a slipped Timber, and use a bight for the 'loose splice', then dog the Bitter End thru the Bight's mid point etc.
> 
> This 'Muenter' effect / stage of the Timber can also be found in a Slipped Cow, the slip, then locked off... Also in reverse (Muenter to Timber, instead of Timber to Muenter etc.), can be used for tightening / some lifting, by pulling Standing into tree as tight as possible, then, 'Muenter over/around' Standing; then use this Muenter to bend/ leverage the Standing, and pull the purchase thru to Bitter side. Then, slide arraingemeant back around away from you (around tree), and pull again to bend Standing. As the Standing tightens, thereby resisting bending more, therefore higher leveraged return each time you do this process. Then, finish with Timber, Cow, another Turn + 2 Halfs etc.
> 
> Hope that isn't tooo thick, but anyway; i see this adjust-able Muenter configuration at base of Cow, Timber (whose finishes are the 'soft lock', then 2 Half Hitches as a 'hard lock' to that).




I'm afraid you still lost me. Probably because I thought a Muenter was a friction hitch used to tie onto a carabiner. I don't know what it would be with a "rope only" configuration.


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## moss (Apr 6, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> A half hitch around the tree above that carabiner would take care of the slack problem. Much like Moss's first picture, but perhaps not quite so many trips around the tree.



For that type of anchor cross the rope on the other side of the trunk, wrap twice before capturing the line going up and use a rated delta screwlink (rapide mallion). When you slack the system and reload it no harm done, the anchor remains secure. The screwlink removes any issues related to loading the gate on a carabiner, the delta is rated 10,000 lbs loaded in any direction. Crossing the rope on the back of the trunk prevents any movement of the anchor upward even if you slack it during the climb.
-moss


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## moss (Apr 6, 2009)

pdqdl is correct, two half hitches above the the setup that Adkpk showed allows the use of a biner to lock it off, the half hitches don't allow any slack to reach the biner if the system is unloaded and reloaded during the climb, but are impractical on a trunk with that diameter, eats too much rope.
-moss


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## 046 (Apr 6, 2009)

hey treespyder... how's about a pic to clarify?



TheTreeSpyder said:


> Pinch off at collar around Standing, and undo the 'loose splice' of the Timber, that is behind the 'Muenter' around the tree. Even easier if you make kinda a slipped Timber, and use a bight for the 'loose splice', then dog the Bitter End thru the Bight's mid point etc.
> 
> This 'Muenter' effect / stage of the Timber can also be found in a Slipped Cow, the slip, then locked off... Also in reverse (Muenter to Timber, instead of Timber to Muenter etc.), can be used for tightening / some lifting, by pulling Standing into tree as tight as possible, then, 'Muenter over/around' Standing; then use this Muenter to bend/ leverage the Standing, and pull the purchase thru to Bitter side. Then, slide arraingemeant back around away from you (around tree), and pull again to bend Standing. As the Standing tightens, thereby resisting bending more, therefore higher leveraged return each time you do this process. Then, finish with Timber, Cow, another Turn + 2 Halfs etc.
> 
> Hope that isn't tooo thick, but anyway; i see this adjust-able Muenter configuration at base of Cow, Timber (whose finishes are the 'soft lock', then 2 Half Hitches as a 'hard lock' to that).


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 6, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I'm afraid you still lost me. Probably because I thought a Muenter was a friction hitch used to tie onto a carabiner. I don't know what it would be with a "rope only" configuration.



i'm jest sayin make same formation around tree(rather than krab) as the basis for these other lacings. Then also, use the mechainics to tighten or lower, let alone finish with Timber or Clove as first stage / soft lock, before perhaps adding 2 Halfs(remember the ol'addage "Safe as 2 Half Hitches") for 'hard lock'.

The Muenter arraingemeant for tightening, gives a 2:1 potential to then input into leveraging the Standing (tensioned) Part, to 'sweat' or 'swig' out more purchase from the line; leaving less line so load lifts and/or rope tightens(rope tightens if less line left to stretch over same distance etc.).

i'll try to put something together for this.


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## Adkpk (Apr 6, 2009)

moray said:


> What happens to this nice rig when you get to the top and allow the rope to go slack? The biner and rope will fall down. When you retension the rope as you descend, will the anchor spontaneously assume the nice form it has in your picture? Could the vertical rope even end up leaning against the biner gate? I think you need an anchor that is guaranteed to keep its optimum configuration no matter what you do up in the tree.



All things are possible as we know. But maybe, not sure myself, I see it this way. If I got stuck and needed to pull that rope up, what would be my chances? The weight if the rope kept it the way it was when I unloaded it. 



Adkpk said:


> Point taken and I will work on it but after all the pic was taken after the climb.



Correction! This pic was after the climb. Please note the ddrt line is 120' I needed to hop a little to unload myself from it. No comments as to a stopper knot! I was aware of the end of the rope and the eye splice wouldn't have let me fall.

Pics of the climb.http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1481505#post1481505


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## moss (Apr 6, 2009)

Speaking of hazards, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my response to the tie-off you're showing Adkpk. Once around the trunk is not sufficient, around twice, cross it on the back and use a Rapide Mallion delta screwlink not a carabiner. There will be no problem if the system is slacked. Please do not climb on the tie-off you are showing again, it is potentially dangerous. There is no need to take that risk.
-moss


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## Adkpk (Apr 6, 2009)

moss said:


> cross it on the back and use a Rapide Mallion delta screwlink not a carabiner.
> -moss



What does rapide mallion mean? I know what a screw link is and have quite a few. I will heed the advise.


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## pdqdl (Apr 6, 2009)

It's just a fancy name for a screw-link.

Fancy price: http://gearx.com/dmm-mallion-rapide-3-8-39-39-8800lbs.html

Same stuff, cheapo price: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200251724_200251724

The cheapo version is made in china, and they don't tell you the load rating.

Then there is the one that Moss was talking about: http://kewystore.com/product/Petzl-Delta-Screw-Link-Spring-2009.html


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## moss (Apr 6, 2009)

Sorry 'bout that, not trying to get all fancy on you, I had it wrong anyway, mine is stamped "Mallion Rapide", $7.95 from New Tribe, Delta Screwlink. Don't use the China non-rated/hardware store version for life support use.
-moss


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## 046 (Apr 6, 2009)

also using "Mallion Rapide" from New Tribe, Delta Screwlink
mine is the stainless version on my New Tribe saddle

no way I'd use non-rated screwlinks or any other non rated hardware for lifeline duties.


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## pdqdl (Apr 7, 2009)

I won't argue with the wisdom of using a rated piece of equipment, but a 1/2" screw-link is so much stronger than a carabiner it's not worth second guessing. Even a cheapo is way stronger than the very best carabiner. They are commonly used to unite broken chains and to secure emergency chains on trailers. I have never managed to break one, although it's easy to make them so the threads don't unscrew.

Given a choice, the screw link is better in every respect except ease of use.


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## moss (Apr 7, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I won't argue with the wisdom of using a rated piece of equipment, but a 1/2" screw-link is so much stronger than a carabiner it's not worth second guessing. Even a cheapo is way stronger than the very best carabiner. They are commonly used to unite broken chains and to secure emergency chains on trailers. I have never managed to break one, although it's easy to make them so the threads don't unscrew.
> 
> Given a choice, the screw link is better in every respect except ease of use.



Mostly true about hardware store screwlinks except a friend broke a non-rated "Made in China" 10mm screwlink while tensioning a high traverse setup. That was a real eye opener. 
-moss


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## pdqdl (Apr 7, 2009)

moss said:


> Mostly true about hardware store screwlinks except a friend broke a non-rated "Made in China" 10mm screwlink while tensioning a high traverse setup. That was a real eye opener.
> -moss



Was that 10mm on the shank, or 10mm on the wrench that fits it?

What was he pulling on it with, and what was it attached to; 100' up in a 200' Douglas fir?


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## 046 (Apr 7, 2009)

another vote for a running bowline or figure 8, both with triple fisherman backup. 

anytime I can use one less piece of gear... that's one less possible point of failure.


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## moss (Apr 7, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Was that 10mm on the shank, or 10mm on the wrench that fits it?
> 
> What was he pulling on it with, and what was it attached to; 100' up in a 200' Douglas fir?



10mm on the shank, it was in old-growth, don't know if it was doug fir or redwood. I don't know the details of what MA was involved if any, just that it popped during tensioning.
-moss


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## moss (Apr 7, 2009)

046 said:


> another vote for a running bowline or figure 8, both with triple fisherman backup.
> 
> anytime I can use one less piece of gear... that's one less possible point of failure.



I don't use hardware either these days but wanted to show the various possibilities. For the trunk tie Adkpk showed I would go around the trunk twice, cross in back, running bowline to capture, backed with double overhand. I leave plenty of tail so a triple overhand isn't needed. The triple overhand covers the possibility of the core slipping through the knot which makes sense if you don't have much tail after the knot. Reality of trunk ties is that the bowline never loosens anyway but it's not much effort to back it up.
-moss


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