# Commercial Tree Forums should be the ONLY Forums



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 25, 2005)

My wife and I were talking tonight about advice moochers and also leaks in the pay that arborists deserve for consulting. We talked the most about forums.

I've concluded that the up-and-up arborist industry would be wise to shut the door on free advice forums where homeowners can seek free consulting.

That to the degree that forums provide a direction on:

1. How to find a qualified arborisit to do a professional on-site evaluation.
2. How to contact the right licensing agencies.
3. Where to buy materials for reading and studying - general knowledge.

I think there is a huge difference between an on-line archive of information, such as a correct diagram showing a pruning cut, versus an arborist trying to give free advice about incomplete information posted on a site - not to mention the possibility for incorrect tree ID.

I have a second site separate from site below. The second one still has a forum that we will strip from it. It's barely used because after dealing with it for about 1 month, I decided not to promote or advertiise it's existence. The forum really sucked time. I noticed, not just there, how how many people go to the internet to mooch free information.

Right now, there are only a tiny handful of tree sites people can go to. One sells stuff and is geared almost exclusively to answering to homeowners. But I think their goal is not to the industry but to selling stuff - MONEY.

Arborist Site is geared heavily to professionals.

There is barely anything else out there.

My suggestion and request, is that all sites with professional integrity, quit undermining the consulting trade of arborists, by removing free advice forums to homeowners or by not adding such kind of forums to their web sites.

That way people can get better quality and also the arborists will get paid for their investment in books, training, certifications, etc..

So I'm dropping my residential forum from my site. That means they can get some general tips, but not specific advice on individual trees in unknown environments where the homeownere can't convey the 30 factors they don't know to look for.

I think sites - even this - should terminate residential forums. I believe that any homeowner forums should have PRE-SET forum categories that funnel them to choice of seeking a person on an agency like:

a. forum - I need an arborist, how do I find one?
b. forum - my tree is falling, how do I get an arborist?
c. forum - what are titles of books that will help me?

In other words, almost every forum is premade, prenamed and likely a STICKY TOPIC.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 25, 2005)

:Eye:


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## glens (Feb 25, 2005)

Hey Mario, are you going to then change<blockquote>&lt;meta name="description" content="M. D. Vaden, landscape contractor, designer, certified arborist,
providing design, designs and designing, for landscaping, yard and tree
service. <b>Advice pages for</b> arborists, landscapers, <b>home owners</b>, bird
advice, as well as services for plans, planting for Oregon areas near
Portland, Beaverton, Tigard, Wilsonville, Hillsboro, Tualatin, Lake
Oswego, Seaside, Cannon Beach"&gt;</blockquote>in your pages?

<tt>: )</tt>


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## NorCalCutters#3 (Feb 25, 2005)

Sounds like job presevation. If you inform homeowners on how to cut, prune, fell & chip trees why would they hire anybody. If your a Cert. Arb. that is knowledge you had to work & pay for so why give it away. If you have been in the industry for a while then your full of wisdom and that is priceless info you charge for. We are in USA " CAPITALIZE ON THE MISFORTUNE OF OTHERS " If they dont know how to , hire some expert who worked his ass off to learn and PAY THEM ( preferably cash)
Some times customers try to watch us working then a month later we see them cutting their own trees so now we do not let them watch . Its for their own saftey anyways . 
Are there any deserted islands left ?
:angel:


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 25, 2005)

Glen...

No...

Reread my first post here. It already answered your question.

Did you fail to distinguish between general nature advice and specific on-site problems.

My website does not address the yellow leaves of my next door neighbor.

What did you do - speed read through the post?

You know, a dentist will provide a brochure on how to brush teeth including diagrams of how teeth are anchored. But they don't take phone calls so I can call in for a free "blind" over the phone diagnosis. They expect me to come in and pay. And they don't supply a diagnosis in the brochure for my teeth.

When I want diagnosis, I look for someone that can sift through evidence and details.


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## begleytree (Feb 25, 2005)

I realize we can't answer each homeowners question perfectly without knowing all the variables, or seeing the problem, But, I think a little advice, free, might allow an average homeowner to see there's more involved with what they're wanting than a simple operation. Might make them see they need professional help, and if not, well, you weren't going to get the job anyway. They are already planning to do it themselves. I'd rather give a little info and keep someone from getting hurt, or maybe help them see they're in over their heads. The paper is going to read "tree trimmer killed" anyway, doesn't matter that he's a 75 year old desk jockey that had no buisness being outside, much less up in a tree.
Hope it made sense -Ralph


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## glens (Feb 25, 2005)

Mario,

Yes, I guess I did speed through the original post a bit too quickly.&nbsp; Truth be told, I'd thought Bill Gates was dropping by for a visit.

I hear what you're saying but don't quite know what to think of it, or rather how to think of it an an agreeable manner.&nbsp; The sort of folks who will attempt to do it themselves will always be with us.&nbsp; And a large portion of them will always be not as adept at the undertaking as they want to believe they are or can be.&nbsp; Those of that larger group who want to do a little preemptive homework are not to be regarded as lightly as you seem to be espousing, in my opinion.

Perhaps the larger problem lies with those giving the answers, as per your argument, not themselves being properly trained to provide such information.&nbsp; One who would offer detailed instruction without enough available background information about the job seems hardly to be of a professional level, wouldn't you agree?&nbsp; Maybe the solution would better be to restrict the advisors to belonging to a relatively elite class?

In any event, free (open) exchange of information benefits the world as a whole much more so than attempting to keep it locked away in the possession of a few elite, who may by that situation be able to see greater personal benefit.&nbsp; It's a tricky thing to balance between personal and collective benefit, at best.

Glen


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 26, 2005)

Oh, I think people that go to the library are great. They actually are exerting some kind of effort.

There's this one forum where homeowers have asked "how do I prune a tree" (lazy !!!)

I tell them to go to the library or buy a good pruning book. Seems they expect some arborist to sit for 3 hours and reinvent that wheel in front of their face.

I don't think pandorah's box is opened, because there are only about 2 forums in the US that people can really try to pry online diagnosis out of groups of arborists.

I help moderate a gardening forum pruning section, but so far it's been different because most of the posts have been after SOURCES and general advice rather than diagnosis information.

Really, to online diagnose is doing harm to people in about 1/3 of the cases.

It's basically arboriculture malpractice.
 
I had a big reminder today. One user of a forum posted for me to assist their reply. It was about a certain tree not blooming. I posted that I could not give advice, because I had not seen the tree or a photo. It was merely hearsay on the tree owners part. It may have been that they bought a tree mislabeled, then it didn't bloom, then supposedly we'd be giving them advice about fertilzing and drainage and light exposure. All the time assuming they have a tree that they don't

Right now, suppose I am a homeowner asking you about my pine tree having problems. How do you know that I have a pine? Do I really have a Cunninghamia? Japanese umbrella pine?

Even if we happen by CHANCE to tell the right insect or fungus, suppose we they don't know about the sunburn on half their trunk because they did not hire somebody/


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## hobby climber (Feb 26, 2005)

www aka world wide web! Life is about choices, yes or no, do or don't, post or not post...etc. I believe the the more you help others, the more you help yourself! I'm thankful for this wonderful site and to everyone who made it passable and participates. Because of it, I have learned how to better care for the trees that I do work in and do so safely. People will do what they want to do if you show them how or not! How many people know how to prune or remove a limb properly? Know about "rope shock" and what could happen if done once to often? Who would know enough to use a 2nd tie in point? PPE and why you need it? etc. A lot of the equipment we use can be rented to anyone with a credit card any day of the week, ie)- chainsaw, chipper, stump grinder, pole saw etc. There are enough stupid people in this world ... so if someone has brains enough to ask questions then I think that person deserves to be answered. Some of what is posted on AS.com are the mistakes that the pros (& others) have made and were humble enough to post them for the benefit of others,(all others), so they don't make that same mistake. The future of a person in this business depends on the knowledge they obtain but without knowledge a persons future could be short lived! I'm not an arborist certified or otherwise nor plan to be one at this point of my life. I do however have the greatest of respect for those who have taken the time, spent the money and worked hard to become certified. Had I known about this field of work 20 years ago, I would have likely taken the same path as you and became certified. MD Vaden, I think I understand the point you are making, that being that others are benefiting from the fruits of your labor/eduction & experience without putting in the time, money or effort. You have a valid point but I think there would be a lot more butchered up tree out there had it not been for people such as yourself who log on the Internet and give free advise to us "moochers" at AS.com !!! Ya got to look at the bigger picture. :angel: HC


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## spacemule (Feb 26, 2005)

NorCalCutters#3 said:


> If you inform homeowners on how to cut, prune, fell & chip trees why would they hire anybody.
> 
> If you have been in the industry for a while then your full of wisdom and that is priceless info you charge for.


I think your second statement quoted here contradicts your first. If the service you provide is "full of wisdom and invaluable", how can it be conveyed over a few Internet posts? If it can't be conveyed over a few Internet posts, why do you think the homeowner will not have a reason to hire a professional? Also, if you have a problem about giving advice over the Internet, the solution is simple--don't give advice. I see the situation to be thus, as similarly stated in another post: I am perfectly competent and able to do my own mechanic work, yet I take my vehicle in for most repairs. Does my knowledge and ability I've gained prevent me from using a professional service? No. How much more so, then, will tree service, which is harder than mechanic work, not be affected by advice on the internet? In my opnion, forums, when done correctly, are just as likely to increase the busniess an arborist receives. Face it fellas, it's never going to take much skill for a homeowner to go out and buy a chainsaw and try to hack their trees up. Whether you help them or not, the incompetent will still botch things up, and the responsible will still utilize professional services when called for. I simply can't believe a serious argument is being made here for the removal of forums. Get a life is what I say.


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## Stumper (Feb 26, 2005)

There are info "moochers" out there in the big wide world but lots of people simply want to know. My eye Doctor had no problem explaining photo mapping of a retinal freckle and the warning signs of problems resulting from histoplasmosis with me and I didn't mind discussing disease reponse/fungal staining from verticilium wilt and disease progression in Silver Maples. I'm not going into eye care and he isn't becoming an arborist. We both like to learn things. Exchanging expertise is a sign of mutual respect. I recommend him for eye care because he is very competent. He hires me and recommends me for arboricultural work presumably because he holds me in similar esteem.


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## geofore (Feb 26, 2005)

*Bad idea?*

I'd prefer to have the flow of information. The information that has passed through AS has helped a lot of climbers that would have spent years learning to do it the old school way. The guys I have helped makes a difference in my life and their's. I'd have never met many of them without this site. I'm guilty of helping a homeowner in Australia get his tree down without getting hurt. He came to AS and asked, his question was answered at AS. I emailed him instructions to get it down safely. He got it down, no injuries, and thanked me. I got an invite to visit, no money. If you search through all the .edu's out there you'll get most of the answers now. To put a stop to that would be to stifle education as we know it today. If you don't want to tell someone because you want them to hire you tell them that up front, "Your problem needs/requires you to hire a professional to come out and look, there will be a fee". Don't stop giving out information, but do tell them when it's time to hire someone. What's going to happen when they get most of the books online? Are you going to be out of buisness? I doubt it. It's one thing to know how it's done, it's quiet another to be able to do it. That is why we'll always have work.


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## PTS (Feb 26, 2005)

Sold!!!!!!!! Sounds good to me.


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## Reed (Feb 26, 2005)

Getting some laughs about tree-people who have asked so many questions of each other to learn more then suddenly turning around and wanting to be silent about it.

Reaks of WalMart gaining "social capital" by claiming everything they try to sell as "Made In America" then turning around and cheapening the prospect by going completely Islamic sweat shop when they've achieved the top slot. 

Un believable. But I can understand the frustrations. Try to think this out more before letting anger dictate a response. Wars are lost that way.


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## topndrop (Feb 26, 2005)

I agree that the industry as a whole cannot be wrapped up in a few sentences given by email or on a website. The correct and proper way to prune/ trim/ cut trees and shrubs is best left to profesionals. I have seen homeowners go to Home Depot, get a book on trees and become an "arborist" overnight. They tend to use the wrong tools, preform dangerous acts (getting on ladders, standing on roof-tops, etc.) and generally make a hash of the tree / shrub befor giving up and calling someone who actually knows what they are doing. We are then left with the unenviable postion of trying to rescue the mangled patient. Giving out advice is ok as long as it is general in nature helps the homeowner make informed decisions regarding the choice of professional to come service their trees/ shrubs. ex. - Palm trees should be trimmed in August after the seed pods have opened. Crepe Mertles should be cut back in late winter - Jan./Feb., etc.
It's all fine and good to give them better service or to expand their knowledge but to attempt to empower them to be tree surgeons is NOT good.
I however do not think the Internet is full of people trying to "Mootch" info. I for one, use the Internet as a tool to expand my already existing knowledge (think online library). I suppose anyone on this forum who asks a question could be considered mooching at that rate.
My two cents...


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## Crofter (Feb 26, 2005)

Giving advice can be very time consuming. If the advice at best is going to alow only a very poor result or possibly a real mess, I dont think you do the person a favour. You only get them where they probably shouldn't be. If someone is quite knowledgeable already you may be able to provide them a key idea or explanation and be really helping them. I am basing my thoughts on my teen years in an auto wrecking and repair business and dealing with people trying to fix their own cars. You could spend all your time and really accomplish very little trying to educate the endless stream. Some place you have to draw the line.


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## ozy365 (Feb 26, 2005)

Educating someone to the breadth of their situation empowers correct decision making. If you can do the work of a professional for $200 bucks most Home Depot-ites will skip the $400 and 50 stitches at an ER to end up with a dead tree. Some one asking questions trumps the guy at HD with a credit card and a Stihl calendar in the garage.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Feb 26, 2005)

As a student i find that the amount of information i have gleaned off of websites and forums has allowed me to excell, it broadens the amount of information availale from individuals experiences allowing me to reach my own and informed coclusions. i find the free consultation pages a mine of useful information as it allows me to see what are the most frequently asked questions and answers to them, i dont belive for one momment that restricting the information will prevent people from trying to do the work themselves as some people have the sort of mentality of 'do it myself and save the cash', by providing them with information we can at least point them in the right direction. as a student i'v been buying lots of text books e.g bodylanguage of trees and illustraded guide to pruning to name but a few, and i estimate the amount of money that i have spent on books relating to arb' alone in the last six months to amount to nearly £200 and i have found a lot of information contained with in these books scattered over the net. if anyone can be motivated enough to find out the information and improve their knowledge then all credit to them and like stumper says just because you find something out dosn't put you in a postion to do it or want to.


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## Newfie (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm curious what M.D.Vaden's motivations are for being at this forum?

Mario seems to be turning against sharing info with the uninformed. So maybe he is here to "mooch" some himself or maybe merely self-promotion? Maybe I have to pay a consultation fee to find out?  

Not making any accusations just sharing my perception at the moment.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 26, 2005)

This is the mostest silliest thread ever.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 26, 2005)

Hey, I just noticed. I thought you were talking 'bout a Van Halen album, orrr something.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 26, 2005)

*Tree Service vs. Tree Buisness*

i think growth in tree understanding, wonder and respect has been held back enough. i believe that fewer, not more trees would receive proper care with this pro-posal.

"We do not inherit the Land and Trees from our parents;
but rather, borrow them from our children, and their's"


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## dayman (Feb 26, 2005)

What about the young or new tree care people who come to arbo discussion forums to mooch information from the more experienced people? Should they be turned away and told that they have to go to school or read all of the books before they can ask a question?

I can understand why you would take the Q&A off your personal forum. That makes perfect sense to me. 

I've given, what I think, is good tree advice on some of the varied forums where I lurk. Should I stop? I've also gone to the library, big-box store and the Internet to find out how to do some particular thing. By self educating I can find what limits I should place on myself. It also has taught me to do some pretty advanced projects that have turned out really well. Without the self-education I probably wouldn't have taken on the projects anyway.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 26, 2005)

vaden, you $grubber. share the wealth (of info). go out and DO something if you want to get paid. you sound like a lawer...


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## geofore (Feb 26, 2005)

*mousetrap*

Woodie003, I hate to say this but if you build a better mousetrap odds are you don't sit at home waiting for the public, you recieve royalty checks. My family's had many patents and the public didn't beat a path to the door but the mailman has always made it. The best thing to come out of www is that folks from around the world get to put their ideas out for peer reveiw from around the world. Look at how many of the guys here have tried something other than a Taughtline or Blakes to climb. Some of them have gotten away from hemp and manila ropes. I can say the saw builders have modified a lot more saws than they used to because AS is here and people come. These are things that would have taken years for folks to find out about but it's here and it's now the way a lot of people learn new things. I think your problem is you don't know when to tell them they need to hire you. Cut them off at 10 miniutes instead of 3 hours. Tell them it's time to bring in the Pro for a fee. Put a time limit on what you do over the net. Don't shut them out completely, do put a limit on your time. Budget your time.


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## caryr (Feb 26, 2005)




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## Crofter (Feb 26, 2005)

I think Caryr puts a good spin on it and I think MdVaden is temporarily burned out by some of the thankless. It sure does make a difference how much self help the question asker is willing to do. Giving advice where it is obviously time wasted, gets old awfully quick.


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## glens (Feb 26, 2005)

Cary, 

That's like my treatment of hitch-hikers.&nbsp; If they're walking like they're going somewhere and stick their thumb out as I approach them, they've got a ride.&nbsp; If they're sitting there with their thumb in the air, forget it.

Glen


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 26, 2005)

What if yur hitching cross-country?


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## glens (Feb 26, 2005)

You get a ride as far as I'm going; maybe further if you're an attractive woman.


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## ccs (Feb 26, 2005)

I really liked the thread about the guy that had his shop broken into and his saws and tools stolen.The real people on this site offered him there saws and what ever he needed to get going again.Not for money but to help somebody out in time of need.I don't know of anybody that hasn't gotten some help from somebody else.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 26, 2005)

We are family.


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 26, 2005)

*Jason D Ladue*



> vaden, you $grubber. share the wealth (of info). go out and DO something if you want to get paid. you sound like a lawer...



You sound like someone that would put "beer drinking" in their profile...


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 26, 2005)

Dam Mario, that don't sound family.

And this is from a beer drinker... :alien:


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 26, 2005)

Master blaster...

You tellin us there is something wrong with beer drinking?


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## jason j ladue (Feb 27, 2005)

what ever...i bet i have a better sense for beer And tree work than you. lets hook up. maybe i can show you how to arrange your priorities, and you could maybe show me how to charge someone w/out having to actually do anything


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## treechick (Feb 27, 2005)

I've been guilty of mooching info off of professionals. I can recall years ago having a plumber come in to look at a problem with the sink. I cringe to think of how I kept that poor bastard for over an hour, walking me through my thinly veiled "Do-It-Yourself" type questions. He was calm, informative and friendly. Why? Well >>> a.) He was being paid for the consult. A minimum, to be sure. But paid all the same. b.) I'm sure he smirked to visualise the process of my fumbling, borrowing / buying tools & parts, not to mention an end result that would lift the eyebrow of a retard. c.) He must have known that if I didn't call him back in 2 days with a flooded kitchen, my "Can-Do" attempts would eventually land him (or another company) a phone call leading to $$$
It's funny, isn't it? I have such a different appreciation for the whole process. Like now, if somebody's at my house for work I offer them refreshments, bathroom access, don't moan about $, etc. It just didn't occur to me before ? Live-n-learn.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 27, 2005)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Master blaster...
> 
> You tellin us there is something wrong with beer drinking?


mario, you are the one trying to say there's something wrong w/ beer drinking...remember your critique of my profile?


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## knudeNoggin (Feb 28, 2005)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I have a second site separate from site below.


My, my, but you have one BEAUTIFUL set of photos!!! :angel: 
Thanks much for that. (And I envy your organizational skill.)



> That way people can get better quality and also the arborists will get paid for their investment in books, training, certifications, etc..
> 
> ... That means they can get some general tips, but not specific advice on individual trees in unknown environments where the homeowner can't convey the 30 factors they don't know to look for.


Or, you could set forth those 30 factors in some way of explaining the value of
having a consulting arborist assess individual situations--so that they WILL know.
(And they might know that the guy they just paid $$$ must've been not all that he
promoted himself to be, since he didn't think squat about any of those factors!)

I recall seeing a doc about an injury (torn ACL), getting an opinion. He's the doc,
he should know. But I got a 2nd, then 3rd, opinion. Funny, they were all docs,
but they had diff. opinions. Then I had to, what's the word, "mooch" around on the
Net for advice from those who'd had similar injuries. And now my eyes are wider
open (and I'm living w/torn ACL pretty okay--doesn't affect cycling, e.g.).

*knuedNoggin*


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## JonnyHart (Feb 28, 2005)

*Free info for the do it yourselfers*

Homeowner: How do I go about trimming that lead away from my house?
Treeguy: Well, first you go buy about a thousand dollars worth of equipment, just to get it down, if you need a chipper, and truck that will be alot more, than, after you figure out how to put yer saddle on rightside up, climb yer fat a$$ way the hell up there and try to remember that knot you read about online the other day. Yer also gonna need a guy on the ground that isn't gonna kill you, or smash the house. Then climb back down and walk out on the branches, and try to remember that other knot you saw the other day. Cut the branch, retie,cut retie, etc.
Homeowner: er... uhh... hmmmm... O.K., you do it.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 28, 2005)

Hahahaaa!!! 

Remember that knot!


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## Al Smith (Feb 28, 2005)

*Consulting fee,gee*

Well,I suppose I could ask for a consulting fee,every thing I make a suggestion about repairing an old saw.Better still,a higher fee,for explaining how to cut a worm gear,on an engine lathe.Still more ,by telling how to make a rotary 3 phase converter.After all,the info is all mine,from 40 plus years of tinkering.Some how,I didn't think this particular forum had that in mind.On second thought,I'll do just as I have.Maybe I can help somebody out.I'll also bet that somebody can help me out also,with timely info.That,my friend,is what this forum is about.


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 1, 2005)

Hey...

check out this offer by 

*Jason Ladue*



> .i bet i have a better sense for beer And tree work than you. lets hook up. maybe i can show you how to arrange your priorities,



Heck, why don't you just start a forum so we can ask you?

  

KNUDE NOGGIN...

Thanks for the compliment. Yeah, I'm organized. so much so I list is in some profiles as an interest. Once ol' Ledue helps me with my priorities, just think how much more organized I'l be.


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## a_lopa (Mar 1, 2005)

thats not a bad offer,as long as he brings plenty of beer,and doesnt mind doing some unpaid work


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## geofore (Mar 1, 2005)

Hey AL, I'm useing a 5HP electric motor for a phase splitter. Maybe we should have posted the Phase splitter stuff with the log splitter fourm to keep things tidy? I also have some chainsaws and will be adding another 346XP to my collection soon.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 1, 2005)

mario, since we're palynig around here, why dont _you _ start your own governmental agency...im sure you'd do well w/it- heck, go federal. hey, i know- you could call it the Bureau of Underappreciated Tree Talkers Having Every Availble Dollar


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 1, 2005)

Well, since I was appointed by the Governor of Oregon to my second term on the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board, I don't think I need to start an agency.

I'm busy taking care of busines there - anything you were familiar with?

Number one issue is the current legislation to move all the Oregon tree services from the CCB (builders board) to the landscape board instead so the entire green agency can be on the same page.

It's already been to hearing and work session. I guess you know about that one.

This is to eradicate the need for 2 licenses to do arboriculture. Currently there is not a clear-cut way to prune, plant and cable under one license alone. Only the landscapers have the edge because in their work, the CCB laws and rules grant an exemption to do tree work without a CCB license as long as they have a LCB license. On the other hand, tree service with the CCB do not have an exemption to plant or transplant trees without a LCB license.

My second 3 year term is over next fall and I'll be glad for the change of pace.


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## Stumper (Mar 1, 2005)

Stinkin' meddlesome ,Big Brother, Pinko commie, slave mentality, ratfaced pukes in government. If the owner licenses the work that is enough for free people.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 1, 2005)

mario, that _is _ cool. i'm not quite sure i understand some of the stipulations you are working on, but it sounds like good stuff. if you do decide to go on along this avenue in your career you can still use my idea for the agency name- for a nominal fee of course...


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## clearance (Mar 1, 2005)

M.D. Vaden-your whole tone reminds me of one of those limpwristed city worker arborists I have had to take instructions from in the past. They really think that they are something special and that they are oracles of knowledge but the men who actually do the work know the truth. I cant stand people that beak off about treework, and couldnt even start a big saw unless it had decomp. (unless they are disabled, thats way different). You can be a i.s.a. certified, but can ya climb a 140ft fir to the top and cut it down? If ya can good for you, but why try to limit other people? Its great your tight with the Gov. you name dropping knowledge strangler, but one of the best things about your country is freedom of speech. no offence.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 1, 2005)

We all should work together, when at all possible.

Can I get an amen?


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## clearance (Mar 1, 2005)

Amen


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## hobby climber (Mar 1, 2005)

Motion Carried!!!


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 2, 2005)

Clearance...

Clearance...

I don't put an ounce of worth in your opinion.

I didn't even want to be on the board for another 3 years, but I was the only person on the board as a landscape contractor that also had arborist experience. That means to fix the mess, I had to volunteer the loss of another $6000 worth of my time for 3 more years. In the process, I managed to enable another ISA person to get on the landscape board so we could fix this mess.

You see, all us Oregon tree and landscape guys already have to have licenses. This project means less licenses.

So.....I don't care. Why on earth would I want to climb a 140 ft. tree after multiple back injuries and a weak knee that got dislocated 3 times in one summer alone?

Hey MasterBlaster... Now you can say I'm not being family with someone. 

Good thing I don't drive an SUV...then I'd really get criticism. Ever heard some B. C. people get bent about SUV drivers?


[ geez masterblaster, I just noticed your a bit short of a zillion posts. Can anyone live long enough to post that many times on here?]


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## jason j ladue (Mar 2, 2005)

hey mario, i'm kinda _glad _ clearance said what he did; i was starting to worry that my words had been a little harsh w/ you right off the bat... btw did anyone happen to notice the acronym in my imaginary federal group idea or am i just the only one who found humor in it? peace guys...


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks, glad you found humor.

I think Clearance needs to find something else.

I'm his limp-wrist nightmare's worst nightmare - even forced one into 5 years early retirement.

And as far as work - two opinions count higher on my totem pole of judges. One was a cowboy and the other a Kansas farmer - they asked me "do you always work that hard"?


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## clearance (Mar 2, 2005)

M.D. Im sorry I was mean. Just cause what you said pissed me off it was wrong of me to respond like that.


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 2, 2005)

Nice of you...

(FRIEND )

By the way - I was born in B.C.. - lived here since the '60s though.

About the landscape board thing - it's not really my cup of tea - that's why I did not like working for the state of Oregon or City of Portland even for 2 years of that kind of employement.

I only went on the board because I like to stir up situations and reorganize. If anything bugs me, it's storing problems.

Me going on the board - LET ME SEE - HOW TO ILLUSTRATE ??...oh yes...Ever pruned a thck nasty hawthorn tree? Me being on the board is like an arborist agreeing to prune an old hawthorn that has been neglected, yet shows great potential. It's painful, nasty and miserable. That's about how I feel about being on a board. It's got to be done, and I'll do my best, but I won't love it.

You can't imagine how much I look forward to my term being over. I would have resigned long ago, but I stuck to my commitment. Then the only reason I went for a second term was because I understood the tree industry and knew my ONE VOTE may be very important. We often face 3 votes to 4 or at times 4 votes to 3. There are 7 on the board. 5 industry and 2 representing the public.

Losing 1 or 2 weekdays of my work week for the meetings has been a bit costly to me. That will ease after I'm done next fall.

Anyway,

Have a great day...  

I think I might take a drive to the ocean tomorrow - maybe take few videos or pictures.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 2, 2005)

Haha. And I get beeched at for posting smilies.


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 3, 2005)

"Beseech"..?

I haven't heard that term in a while.

Thou for certainty must hath the lips of he who walketh with the wise, and standeth in the counsel of the ancients.

Take care brethren.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 3, 2005)

mario, i was mostly playin w/ya i know you realize that, but part of what i said was serious- if you ever need a hand, drop me a line. i'll  climb that 140 for ya... jason


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 3, 2005)

Sounds like a deal.

But how about 140' + 1" ?

What if I need 140' plus 1" ?

   

This is totally off-topic, but when I was in Cannon Beach last fall, I happened to grab the newspaper laying in a pizza place there the day after a climber from a ways north of there did a rescue of some doctor guy than hang-glided into a tree in Ecola park the day before.

When I got back in town, it was on the news too. Did you hear or read about that guy?

(seems he has cut into his own body several times the article says)

Anyhow, the tall tree thing reminded me of that.


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## Gopher (Mar 3, 2005)

*Forum for Arborists*

Let me ask all of you this question, "Would you go to an on-line forum sponsored by attorneys for legal help following the abduction of your spouse?"

I certainly hope not.

Therefore, I agree with M.D. Vaden's candid approach to all of us by asking us to look at the part of this forum open to non-arborists. What benefit are we providing, and at what cost (with this part of ArboristSite)?

Also, one reader had an in depth discussion with his eye doctor; wonderful. Another question for all, "How many people claim to be eye know-it-alls?" And, "How many people claim to know-it-all about trees and tree care?" I hope you see (pun intended) the difference. It is for this reason that I feel we do need to proceed cautiously with what we say. 

I had one client question me about a portion of his bill. He said "only attorneys and doctors charge like that." This guy is a wealthy man, too. I said, "Well, you requested an appointment with me at a specific time on Saturday morning, so you could squeeze me in between two other people (landscaper and architect), and then you picked my brain for 45 minutes; and now you think all of this time is free?!" He saw my point, and I have done more tree care for him. He has along way to go, though. Following some excavation past one of his prized Crimson King Norway maples, I called him and let him know that I thought the excavator was supposed to stay farther away. His reply, "I don't think that many roots were disturbed; they didn't dig that deep." I was going to do some more explaining to him (I already had once) but I just shut up and now this spring we will assess the damage.

Like the song says, "Start Spreddin' the News...", but let's start, "Takin Care of Business" because "Money...It's a Sin".

Take care all.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 3, 2005)

i realize that there is a certain liability in offering advice in tree care. this is definitley legitimate cause for the use of caution. i think to make a bit of a disclaimer, especially where there is a (distinct) possibility for damage/injury to occur, would be wise. such a disclaimer may not be legally binding though and rather than to take any chances, it would be most prudent/lucrative to offer a consultation in person. it is easier to make a more accurate diagnosis/assessment of the situation thusly, and the pr aspect is invaluable- people want direct contact w/their advisors more often than not, and it is a more tangible service. however, to close a forum to those w/intelligent concern or questions regarding their trees is contrary to my own philosophy. some questions are definitely answerable on line, and should be fielded gladly by those who posess the knowledge to do so...we are after all given this forum. we should try and make the most of it by showing our apprecition in the form of helping others w/less expertise than ourselves. now, one more thing to think about. at the risk of sounding hippie and karmic:has anyone ever given _you _ a hand, purely from the kindness of their heart/in the spirit of selfless enlightenment, along the way toward your profession. i know the reason you became a professional is so that you could make $ but come on...i dont think it very difficult to see both sides of the coin (at least to some extent)


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## Ghivelder (Mar 7, 2005)

Sorry I'm a bit late here...
I think that Mr. Vaden fails to understand the true nature of the web.
FREE INFORMATION is the very essence of the Internet and information has never been a substitute for the work of a professional. Think of how much information is avaiable online about heart surgery. If I needed one, I guess I would be happy to read about it, but that doesn't mean I would try to do it myself.
There is obviously no difference between consulting the Internet and going to a library. This is really a conservative way of seeing things. I spend hours reading stuff online. Is it worthless just because I didn't walk to the library? And what library? Unless you live beside the Library of Congress, I doubt your local library could compete with the web (Yes, I know the information online is chaotic - but that's a different matter).
I understand Mr. Vaden is nostalgic of a time when information could be protected and made into a family resource. Think of violin makers, for example, who used to pass their craft from father to son. Today, you can get online the exact measurements of violins made by the best makers in the world and still, somehow, they (and not us) are still the best makers in the world. But the information is there for everyone...
We also should not forget, as rich inhabitants of the first world, that there are millions of people out there that cannot buy a book nor have a library nearby. With the increase of cheap (or free) access to the Internet on public schools around the world these people will have access to information that, unlike us, they couldn't get any other way.
You should consider, Mr. Vaden, that the hitchhikers you see sitting down with their thumbs up could be just taking their breath for a minute after a five hours walk...

Sergio

www.treeclimbing.it


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## underwor (Mar 7, 2005)

One of the hardest concepts to sell has been Plant Health Care, as it was designed to be used, not simply changing the name of your spray department to your PHC department as many companies did. This concept that people should buy information from me to keep their trees healthy so that they do not have to buy my emergency services later on does not make sense to the average person, who things trees just "grow on trees" so to speak. One thing that those who have made a success of this business of selling information have learned is that it is easiest to sell it to an educated person. A person whom has been converted by a few samples of free advice that make great sense. Things like trying a garden hose to wash off spider mites if there are very few and you have good water pressure. This advice is followed up by directions to test for spider mites again following the treatment with a sheet of paper held under the branch and if a large number is still observed, then hire someone to spray. If you are down to 4 or 5 mites on the sheet, then it is not a problem for a while. I will attach a photo at the end of this of a tree in Bismarck ND that had the top half eaten up by mites and the bottom, where the sprinkler hit was totally mite free. This tree was so bad I told them to have it sprayed, but I also pointed out what the lawn sprinkler had done to prevent the problem and I got about 3 call backs for other advice, all paid after that. Again, it is easier to sell information to an informed person!!!!

http://165.234.175.12/photos/Pathology/spider mite wash.jpg


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## underwor (Mar 7, 2005)

When I was doing the consulting in the previous article for the city of Bismarck, they charged $25/half hour, it is now $30 i think. They actually had more calls as they raised the prices. The people thought they got what they paid for. They started charging to encourage the local fellows to get into this line of work more so they would not have to, but to my knowledge, no one has stepped in, so they do even more now through the city. Once people found out where the service was available, they started calling. Before they were educated, they did not know where to start.


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