# Backup (non TIP) anchors for newbie Spur climbing



## oldboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Hi I recently purchased a spur Kit, I've been trimming with a throw bag for years, and have worked with a saw for longer. I've climbed with borrowed spikes a few times in the past, and I'm into rock climbing and mountaineering, so I've got a pretty good feeling for it. The trees I'm working on are tall leaning alders, they have smooth slick/wet bark and lot's of moss. I'm worried that if I blow a foot high up, I'll take a long painful ride to the ground since there is little friction. For some of the trees a TIP anchor would be possible but it's the other trees I'm worried about. I have a few questions:

Would setting up sling-beaner anchor points around the trunk every 15 feet or so be a good idea? and is that common practice for leaning slim and slick trees? Are there other means of making the climb safer?

The tree is leaning over a structure, that is the reason for removal. Instead of climbing high in the leaning tree and topping it, would setting a rope or cable with a two ton come along to the upper third of the tree then cranking it and making a cut at the base be a good alternative? It might be easier on me since the top is heavily leaning over the structure.

Thanks for any insight or advice.

Dan


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## Zale (Feb 14, 2014)

Setting up sling/beaner anchor points might give you peace of mind but you are over thinking it. You won't fall to the ground if your spikes kick out. I would suggest practicing on trees without a house underneath it. Learning can be a *****.


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## climb4fun (Feb 14, 2014)

those look like alders, be careful, they are brittle. if your worried about sliding down the tree then put a full wrap around the tree with your lanyard and stay on the high side. in the case of a fall it will bite down on the tree and you wont fall. use a sling or rope loop with a carabiner as a false crotch to rig manageable sections out, or cut sections out that are small enough for you to hand toss clear of the house (rigging them out would be better if you lack experience). trying to redirect the fall of a heavily leaning tree is do-able but difficult and requires more felling/rigging experience than most people think and that's why there are so many videos on youtube for us to laugh at. anytime your in a tree running a saw you should attach your life line to the tree. to make this easy, choke the tree with the end of your lifeline just below your lanyard the same way i told you to with lanyard. youtube has videos of almost every climbing technique thinkable so if you need visual examples start searching there. im going to pretend that I think your experienced and that I don't need to tell you that this stuff is dangerous and so on and etc. ... p.s. this stuff is dangerous and so on and etc.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 15, 2014)

Pruning or removing?
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:tree climber companion


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## oldboy (Feb 15, 2014)

Thanks for your words fellas.

Speanbeans, I'll be removing them, I'm gonna get that book.

Climb4fun, Yeah I was surprised how brittle that Alder wood is. After dropping some of the non-structure-threatening trees from the ground I walked out to the crowns and ripped a few branches off with my hands, brittle was a word that came to mind. Makes me think I should maybe put a cable brace to a nearby tree about halfway up on some of the leaners I'm going to climb. Also makes me wonder how high/thin is safe to climb... Also contemplating putting the lowering rigging on a nearby tree so the weight of the top falling won't swing the tree I'm in.


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## climb4fun (Feb 15, 2014)

using a nearby tree to rig out of is a good idea. though I don't think I would use a cable brace to keep the tree from falling, they are more likely to blow out a top than fall over. pay attention to the tree (alder) on the way up and inspect for damage. how high you climb depends on how much you weigh, wind, condition of the tree and guts vs. intellect. I weigh 160 lbs and I can climb on 6inches of alder no problem. there are many methods that could be used to make this safer but they all require extra gear, extra knowledge and extra people.


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## climb4fun (Feb 15, 2014)

p.s. those trees are going to take you for a ride when you top them. tall skinny trees do that, you just have to ride it out, shake the pee out of your boots and keep going.


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## imagineero (Feb 18, 2014)

hope you got to read all the replies before they disappeared


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## Pelorus (Feb 18, 2014)

imagineero said:


> hope you got to read all the replies before they disappeared


What is going on, Shaun? 
Your post on the "where would you cut this branch thread" made a lot of sense, imo.


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## Guran (Feb 18, 2014)

When I climb with spurs I use a adjustable friction saver setup. (And a flip line.)
Use your climbing rope with your cambium saver. Pic below.





It grabs instantly. And it´s a great safety feature if you need to get back to the ground fast without having to climb all the way down. (In case of injury, wasps, lunch brake. wife calling.....) You get the picture.


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## oldboy (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks guys! I really appreciate your words of wisdom. Imagineero, yes I did your read your helpful post as well as the other fellows post before they somehow went the way of the wind. I will report back in a few...

Dan


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## imagineero (Feb 19, 2014)

Pelorus said:


> What is going on, Shaun?
> Your post on the "where would you cut this branch thread" made a lot of sense, imo.



It just sucks to post half a dozen replies, some of them 3 or 4 paragraphs long, and kablam! I put a lot of effort in past to do long term reviews of products with photos and videos, and they were good things to give linkbacks to guys in new threads but every time i see one I feel depressed now. I can only imagine it must be 1000 times worse for the likes of randy or brad with up around 40,000 posts, many of them with detailed photos.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 19, 2014)

Yea Shaun, I liked where you had taken the "where would you cut this branch" thread. Wished you would make that post again. We also had a good discussion going about that good looking White Oak that fell against the house. I also hate when posts go missing. I'm glad to hear the OP on this thread was able to read my comments about dangers of dropping tops.


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## imagineero (Feb 20, 2014)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Yea Shaun, I liked where you had taken the "where would you cut this branch" thread. Wished you would make that post again. We also had a good discussion going about that good looking White Oak that fell against the house. I also hate when posts go missing. I'm glad to hear the OP on this thread was able to read my comments about dangers of dropping tops.


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## oldboy (Mar 12, 2014)

So I spurred up one of the problem alders leaning over cabin this afternoon, climbed up 70' or so till the trunck tapered to about 6 inches and to just below a fork, above the fork the trunk is skinnier. I must admit all the wobbling and swinging gave the willies a little... The trunk sort of spirals in a leaning way... It got dark so I rapped down, I'm gonna get up there with a pole saw tomorrow and thin out the top, in most directions the forest canopy sort of closes in, I'd like to climb higher, but I'm at the point where I'm swinging the tree pretty good, and damn that alder is brittle.

The top is leaning over the structure, I'm torn between roping it and having a ground guy pull while I notch it to fall away from it's lean and into a opening in the canopy vs. letting it fall into it's lean and rigging off the trunk. Any thoughts?

Also It may just be possible to simply crank it over a little with a come along with attached points from the anchor near the top to a ground anchor at 45dg and away from the cabin and make a base cut... It leans toward the house, but I suppose If I was able to bend the top way over...

Thanks

Dan


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## oldboy (Mar 13, 2014)

Well I got 'er done, ended up rigging the top off itself with a stretchy climbing rope, no ground guy, then pieced it down. Pretty easy in hindsight, I climbed to where it was about 4 inches and topped it.


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## Peter.s (Mar 14, 2014)

Nice job - I dont know if ide make it that high because of my size (6'3" 220lbs) but it looks like it all went well.
most trees you just have to see what you feal like after you get up there.


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## Oak Savanna (Mar 14, 2014)

G


oldboy said:


> View attachment 339131
> Well I got 'er done, ended up rigging the top off itself with a stretchy climbing rope, no ground guy, then pieced it down. Pretty easy in hindsight, I climbed to where it was about 4 inches and topped it.



Nice job! Not trying to be rude, just trying to help, I think you might have your spurs on backwards. The long part of the padding should be on the front of your leg and short to the back. Stay safe.


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## Peter.s (Mar 14, 2014)

Oak Savanna said:


> G
> 
> 
> Nice job! Not trying to be rude, just trying to help, I think you might have your spurs on backwards. The long part of the padding should be on the front of your leg and short to the back. Stay safe.



I dont think so - look at the bottom strap - I didnt go to get my spikes out but it looks right.


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## Peter.s (Mar 14, 2014)

NVM I ran to the barn to get my spikes and your right Oak Savana - there on backwards


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## oldboy (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks Guys, no offense taken. 

Ha, I guess they'll be a little more comfy with the pads on the right way. When I took them out of the box, there were no instructions, so I just assembled the pads and straps to what felt right. My shins were a little sore up there, but I figured a little discomfort is part of climbing, I appreciate you pointing that out.

Dan


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## DR. P. Proteus (Mar 17, 2014)

Peter.s said:


> NVM I ran to the barn to get my spikes and your right Oak Savana - there on backwards




They come out of the box that way.

Sometimes I use the rock climbing technique of setting chokers on my way up a brittle tree and have some one belay me... a fat load of good that will do.


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## kator (Mar 24, 2014)

oldboy said:


> View attachment 339131
> Well I got 'er done, ended up rigging the top off itself with a stretchy climbing rope, no ground guy, then pieced it down. Pretty easy in hindsight, I climbed to where it was about 4 inches and topped it.



I just started practicing climbing with spurs on a 40' spruce. I feel comfortabe up to 15', but when I get higher and the trunk is getting thin I am afraid of gaffs to kick out.
Could you elaborate more on how you secured yourself to the tree in case of kick out and how do you position your legs, gaffs and torso on a thin trunk? Thanks a lot.


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## Guran (Mar 24, 2014)

> I just started practicing climbing with spurs on a 40' spruce. I feel comfortabe up to 15', but when I get higher and the trunk is getting thin I am afraid of gaffs to kick out. Could you elaborate more on how you secured yourself to the tree in case of kick out and how do you position your legs, gaffs and torso on a thin trunk? Thanks a lot.


Yep, It´s a bit scary when you're high up on spikes on a thin trunk. Kicking out with only your lanyard could mean a ride sometimes.
You can use your friction/cambium saver and choke it around the trunk, together with your climbing rope. If you kick out and loose your foothold, it will grab instantly.





Some basic stuff about climbing with spurs below:


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## kator (Mar 24, 2014)

Thank you Guran for your thoughts. I am leaving stubs on the side I don't climb, so the lanyard will stop on it at worst. Once I manage to get enough high, so the spar is 8-6" I intend to double wrap the lanyard. I wish the "climbing arborist" would show how to climb on a thin spar. Is the technique somewhat different on a 6" twig? I read that some guys use pole gaffs on small trunks for better stability. I was thinking about practicing a kick out on a low height. Is it a good idea or it is too risky and bruisy?


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## joezilla11 (Mar 24, 2014)

Try it out with your lanyard and with a wrap too. Ull get an idea of what to expect and ull see how it'll hold and give u some confidence. I saw a video once on this topic I'll see if I can find it for u


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## joezilla11 (Mar 24, 2014)




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## kator (Mar 25, 2014)

I did a controlled gaffing out on a 11-inch trunk. For those who are learning to use the spurs like me, here is what I have learned.
It is not as peaceful as the above video shows. Sure, if you hold your lanyard firmly with both hands while you gaffing out you will feel like nothing happened.
However, I would expect to experience gaffing out in less perfect circumstances, so I decided to jump off the tree without holding the lanyard. The lanyard was sliding down and if I would not be close to the ground it would probably be a long ride.
I climbed a bit higher with the double wrap. In this case the lanyard choked the trunk right away and stopped me. It was not pleasant though, as I slammed the trunk with my chest.
It may not be so bad in real life as I purposely jumped off with open arms, and held my hands away all the time.
The experiment definitely taught me about the safety challenges of spurs on thin trunks. It also helped me to gain confidence, because now I know first hand the consequences of a kick out.
Moving a double wrap lanyard is cumbersome. I was hugging the tree while moving this up or down which is supposed to increase a chance of a kick out, but I felt safe.


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## oldboy (Mar 26, 2014)

"Could you elaborate more on how you secured yourself to the tree in case of kick out and how do you position your legs, gaffs and torso on a thin trunk? Thanks a lot."

Hi Kator,

Well I am definitely not the person to ask, cause I'm very new to this too. On that skinny alder in the picture, I just kicked in hard, and used a backup false crotch. The top of the tree felt safer in the sense of slipping because of the stubs I left not far below, there were no branches below the upper part of the tree.

Thanks for sharing your experience comparing the double wrap vs single.


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## kator (Apr 2, 2014)

Using the spurs happened to be just the beginning of the learning curve. After conquering fear of height I removed all the branches up to the topping part. However when I am now just bellow the top, any movement causes the trunk to wobble, and I am afraid of a dangerous jolt when the top will start falling. The trunk is about 6" in diameter at the lanyard. The false crotch for the climbing line is wrapped around a 4" trunk right above the 6" trunk/knot. What are the conciderations in this probably typical scenario? Would you leave the lower branches to absorb a shock(too late now) or it is not commonly practiced? What if you have to rig the top? Does this top appear too heavy in order to do it safely? Any thoughts are appreciated.


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## kator (Apr 2, 2014)

This youtube clip shows how violent and life threating can be topping off. What do you think could be done differently to avoid such a shock?
My first impression was that he should cut more branches and climb to a higher point, but is it that simple?


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## CanopyGorilla (Apr 4, 2014)

kator said:


> Using the spurs happened to be just the beginning of the learning curve. After conquering fear of height I removed all the branches up to the topping part. However when I am now just bellow the top, any movement causes the trunk to wobble, and I am afraid of a dangerous jolt when the top will start falling. The trunk is about 6" in diameter at the lanyard. The false crotch for the climbing line is wrapped around a 4" trunk right above the 6" trunk/knot. What are the conciderations in this probably typical scenario? Would you leave the lower branches to absorb a shock(too late now) or it is not commonly practiced? What if you have to rig the top? Does this top appear too heavy in order to do it safely? Any thoughts are appreciated.


From the looks of that picture there is no need to rig that top. I would double wrap my lanyard (while I had my life line in place, duh) and then make a face and dumper away from the house. If you are not confident in your felling skills have someone pull in the intended direction of fall with a rope. As soon as I see my hinge start to open I SLAM the chain brake to make sure there is no way a running saw can hit me. I sort of have a three step process once a top starts to go weather I am negative rigging or just letting it fall. Step 1: hit chain brake, Step 2: cuff the tree with your free hand (remember to resist the urge to pull yourself into the tree, as this will make you less stable on your spikes), Step 3: ride the wave.
To answer your question, no that is not to much top to rig. The climber swinging out of control in that video you posted was a result of a poor groundy not letting the top run at all, and the climber not being fully prepared for the convertible ride.


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## CanopyGorilla (Apr 4, 2014)

I would also emphasize the double wrap thing. There is literally no way you are going to take much of a ride when you do that. It won't feel good if you hit the trunk or put a spur in your leg, but your not going down to far. I slip gaffs all the time on thin trees with sketchy bark and it really is not that big of a deal. Just to give you a frame of reference, and not being a ****, the tree in your picture would take me less than an hour to have on the ground, and it would take a really good climber less than 30 min.
^^to kator, not the OP^^


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## VA-Sawyer (Apr 5, 2014)

Heck, I believe that I could have it down in an hour, and I'm slow!


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## kator (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you all, for your comments. It is (was) my first tree ever. I wanted to practice as much as I could on it, hence I wanted to rig the top. I gave up the idea because of fear of breaking the 5" trunk which supported me.
I like to take time while learning and climbed this tree about a dozen times before taking it down. The sap was all over the trunk, and eventually the lanyard. I cut the top with a hand saw. It took awhile to put this tree down, but today I can cut a tree like this in two hours probably, without shaking in my pants on the top. 

P.S. My way of learning would not make an instructor from this video happy.


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## Ryan Shaw (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks for all your input guys, I think my first climb is Wednesday and a lot of questions I had been wondering were answered here


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## kator (Apr 8, 2014)

Hey Ryan,
I am glad you also benefit from this thread.
As for the quote, it is important to first learn how to do things right, but learning from others' mistakes, especially from those who have the expertise, helps to tamper arrogance and develop a respect for life endeavors. For me tree climbing (and cutting) is also a lesson of humility.

P.S.
He managed to cut this tree down in less than 20 minuts


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## Ryan Shaw (Apr 8, 2014)

kator said:


> Hey Ryan,
> I am glad you also benefit from this thread.
> As for the quote, it is important to first learn how to do things right, but learning from others' mistakes, especially from those who have the expertise, helps to tamper arrogance and develope a respect for life endeavors. For me tree climbing (and cutting) is also a lesson of humility.
> 
> ...




Haha, that quote wasn't in reference to this discussion, it's my signature or whatever. It's a Shigoism that made it possible for many arborists on this forum to have the tree knowledge that they do. But, yeah, I would agree with that statement too. I'm happy to learn from the mistakes of people like the man in that video rather then make them myself haha. But when I do make a mistake, I'll take the positive from it, I.E. the lesson


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (May 30, 2014)

You might try a speed line like this.


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## woodchuck357 (May 30, 2014)

When I was first climbing with spurs, I seldom put a rope in the tree before I climbed it. I would tie a line to my belt, click my strap to one of the rings and start up the tree. Nothing but hands and spurs until I got to working height then throw the strap around, catch it, click in, lean back, then pull up the saw and any ropes needed with my "getting line". The only times I used a strap or lanyard, to climb with, was on trees bigger than about 30 inches DBH. The few times I gaffed out, both spurs, I had no problem hanging on and resume climbing.
All was fine for several years, got married, started a family, Wife came and watched me work one day and that was the end of that. Rope in the tree, around my butt, bowline with a tail tied in a blakes hitch and a strap or flipline around the tree before a spur touches bark. Working with folks that would love to tell her if I went back to my old carefree ways. Just a good thing I never let her see me foot locking up a rope with no safety line!
Now I use a full harness, always have someone who's only job is to watch for something to go wrong, am always tied in two ways with one being a rope. Of course I can no longer bench three times my weight, dead lift twice it, or curl nearly half. And that's not all because I weigh more!
Last week I had occasion to use my 80 cc mack with a 30 inch bar, up a tree, taking down a big Sycamore, and it sure was harder than when I used to do that when the saw was new.


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## Ryan Shaw (Jun 15, 2014)

kator said:


> Using the spurs happened to be just the beginning of the learning curve. After conquering fear of height I removed all the branches up to the topping part. However when I am now just bellow the top, any movement causes the trunk to wobble, and I am afraid of a dangerous jolt when the top will start falling. The trunk is about 6" in diameter at the lanyard. The false crotch for the climbing line is wrapped around a 4" trunk right above the 6" trunk/knot. What are the conciderations in this probably typical scenario? Would you leave the lower branches to absorb a shock(too late now) or it is not commonly practiced? What if you have to rig the top? Does this top appear too heavy in order to do it safely? Any thoughts are appreciated.



Just noticed this question when I re-read the post: "Would you leave the lower branches to absorb a shock(too late now) or it is not commonly practiced?" I'm used to arborists doing exactly what you did in these pics, acting like Drake (started from the bottom now we here.) But I recently worked with a guy who only cut all the branches off of one side of the tree, worked his way up to the top, topped it, then worked his way down chopping off the rest of the branches. I thought it was a little peculiar, but figured he was doing that just to give him footing. But after, he asked me if I knew why he did that. I guessed for footing, but then he told me that, no, it was to absorb the shock.. so, yes, that is a practice done on ex-current trees. It takes longer to climb (if you're doing it properly/safely) because you're constantly attaching your secondary then detaching your primary and vice versa, but it definitely does work as a nice shock absorber


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## Dieselgenset (Apr 9, 2016)

W


Ryan Shaw said:


> Just noticed this question when I re-read the post: "Would you leave the lower branches to absorb a shock(too late now) or it is not commonly practiced?" I'm used to arborists doing exactly what you did in these pics, acting like Drake (started from the bottom now we here.) But I recently worked with a guy who only cut all the branches off of one side of the tree, worked his way up to the top, topped it, then worked his way down chopping off the rest of the branches. I thought it was a little peculiar, but figured he was doing that just to give him footing. But after, he asked me if I knew why he did that. I guessed for footing, but then he told me that, no, it was to absorb the shock.. so, yes, that is a practice done on ex-current trees. It takes longer to climb (if you're doing it properly/safely) because you're constantly attaching your secondary then detaching your primary and vice versa, but it definitely does work as a nice shock absorber


what do you mean it acts like a shock absorber? I was thinking he was using it to catch him on his lanyard if he gaffed out or something


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## Dieselgenset (Apr 9, 2016)

so i know this thread is old but here is another gaff out vid


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## treesmith (Apr 10, 2016)

kator said:


> Thank you all, for your comments. It is (was) my first tree ever. I wanted to practice as much as I could on it, hence I wanted to rig the top. I gave up the idea because of fear of breaking the 5" trunk which supported me.
> I like to take time while learning and climbed this tree about a dozen times before taking it down. The sap was all over the trunk, and eventually the lanyard. I cut the top with a hand saw. It took awhile to put this tree down, but today I can cut a tree like this in two hours probably, without shaking in my pants on the top.
> 
> P.S. My way of learning would not make an instructor from this video happy.



That video is awful, bad technique and bad instruction, lean back ffs!


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## treesmith (Apr 10, 2016)

I use a lanyard backed up with an ART ropeguide, choke it on the stem for retrievable anchor point, cut a log, slide it down and carry on


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## Ryan Shaw (Apr 14, 2016)

Dieselgenset said:


> W
> 
> what do you mean it acts like a shock absorber? I was thinking he was using it to catch him on his lanyard if he gaffed out or something



It's called dynamic dampening. You leave limbs to aid in energy absorption. When make your back cut to top the tree, there are a number of forces that act on the stem. Initially, the top is pushing back as it falls and puts pressure on the hinge. Then when notch closes, it puts forward pulling pressure on the stem with varying force (factors like the type of notch (small notch vs open face,) thickness of hinge, and size of top.) Then the hinge brakes suddenly releasing the pressure. Not to mentioned the added force catching the top of you're rigging it. All of this forward/backward sudden pressure produces wobbling and shock load to the stem and since you're tied in to that stem, it can have serious ramifications. Leaving limbs spreads out that shock and the drag produced by the added surface area of the remaining limbs absorbs much of the shock load resulting in much more stability. Follow?


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## Dave6390 (Apr 14, 2016)

Wholly Crappola! What a ride, and it was "Free"!


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## Dieselgenset (Apr 14, 2016)

That's cool, thanks for the explanation.

I just thought they would get in the way of your top and the rigging. I also thought cutting all the limbs off was a way of dropping weight the tree would normally have to support which would make it safer when climbing to the top of pine trees where the diameter gets pretty skinny. I'm thinking the weight of a climber up there and the shock loads of chunking it down are working against the stem less if it's not having to support all the other branches too. Am I crazy for picturing it this way?
What are your thoughts on this?


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## Ryan Shaw (Apr 14, 2016)

Dieselgenset said:


> That's cool, thanks for the explanation.
> 
> I just thought they would get in the way of your top and the rigging. I also thought cutting all the limbs off was a way of dropping weight the tree would normally have to support which would make it safer when climbing to the top of pine trees where the diameter gets pretty skinny. I'm thinking the weight of a climber up there and the shock loads of chunking it down are working against the stem less if it's not having to support all the other branches too. Am I crazy for picturing it this way?
> What are your thoughts on this?



For sure, all are considerations you have to make.. earlier this week, I was removing an ash with a massive through-crack that had been struck by lightning too.. my groundsman said he didn't think I should be climbing any higher because of the crack.. but I had already removed a lot of the weight when I removed a large limb. Exactly like you said, if it could hold the couple hundred pounds of that limb straight out from the trunk, then it can handle my lower weight closer to the trunk.


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## BC WetCoast (Apr 14, 2016)

If you're on a single stem removal (conifer) and you've stripped the stem, when you get near the top and smack the side of the trunk, you want watch the vibration wave travel down the trunk. Leaving branches will dampen that vibration. Most times, branches including stubs are removed to keep branches from higher up the tree from hanging up.

I will leave a couple of lower branches to protect something like a fence.


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## Dieselgenset (Apr 18, 2016)

That's a good idea, the lower branches can catch other limbs or least break their fall


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