# I'm gettin' tired of this!!



## Timberhauler (Mar 12, 2007)

My phone has been ringing alot here lately,and I've lost count of how many jobs I bid in the last two weeks.But that's just it.I'm giving out bids right and left,but can't seem to buy a job.The last couple I have bid on,I even bid a little low,hoping that it would really get us rolling again,but even that's not working....Either we're getting an over abundance of people bidding jobs real cheap,or I'm about to get blindsided with work..
There is a guy who sells real estate around here.In the last two years,I've looked at countless jobs for him,usually going well out of my way to do so.Then it struck me that in two years I have not gotten one single job from him.He called me about two weeks ago,asked me to come out and check out a couple of trees for him,I told him that I didn't have time anymore to be jerked around...I've looked at well over ten jobs for him in the last little while,and have gotten nothing out of it.I'm not sure why he keeps calling me.I guess I burned that bridge,but I guess there wasn't even a bridge in the first place..I have never even gotten any refferals from him..I guess I'm just frustrated and needing to vent.This time last year,we were having to sub work out,now it's all we can do to work five days out of the week.I'm not sure what gives.


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## tzelmet (Mar 12, 2007)

*re-bidding*

Like recycling, they take your bid and tell the next guy "I already have a lower price, or I've got someone who will do it cheaper!" Ever hear that one before? Just have Faith my friend, sooner or later the will come back, they always do. Next time your in their neigborhood fire up your chipper for a minute and chip a piece or two. Let em know who's got the big guns.


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## Blinky (Mar 12, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> ...I've looked at well over ten jobs for him in the last little while,and have gotten nothing out of it.I'm not sure why he keeps calling me.I guess I burned that bridge,but I guess there wasn't even a bridge in the first place..I have never even gotten any refferals from him..
> ...



Sounds like that bridge was ripe for the torch.

Keep bidding, you know how it happens, feast or famine.


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## loveroftrees (Mar 12, 2007)

I was the same way a month ago. Then whaaam. Be patient they will come.


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## Timberhauler (Mar 12, 2007)

I wish there were some kind of standards around here in this business.Anyone who ownes a rope and a chainsaw thinks they are a tree guy.I have a guy who lives hear me who decided to get into the tree business this past summer...He didn't even know how to climb a tree,and he was out bidding jobs.He came to me several times and tried to either get me to put a tree on the ground for him,or chip some brush for him..Every single time,he didn't have enough money in the job to justify me setting foot on the property...Jobs that I wouldn't have done for no less than a thousand bucks...It was a 400 dollar job for him...He had a huge white oak tree not far from here he wanted me to put on the ground for him..I went and looked at it,it would have taken me at least a whole day up in that tree to get it to a point to fall it..He only bid 700 bucks on it.....He eventually got overwhelmed and quickly got out of the business..There is another one running around here who for a while he was in my driveway every morning trying to get me to bring my skid loader somewhere to haul logs for him...I was a little slow a couple of weeks ago,so I took my grapple truck over to one of his jobs...He wanted me to haul the logs for him,which I could have done in about an hour and fetched about $600 bucks..but he wanted half of whatever I made on the wood.It was six huge poplar trees,and he had only bid 1200 bucks on the job..It was very near my house,and I watched this job go down,and it took him and some other guy all week to end up getting that wood out of there..Last week he had the nerve to stop by one morning and ask me if he could use one of my climbers...I left it up to Steve,the climber he wanted since things were a little slow...So thinking he could possibly pull a little extra cash,Steve went and helped him,from 8 in the morning until after dark that evening...He only paid Steve 100 dollars which is half what I pay him for a full day.Needless to say the next time that guy showed up,he was promptly re-directed..It's people like this that are hurting all of us who are trying to do it honestly....I have met with many other tree outfits around here,and we have all agreed on a standard hourly rate so we are not cutting each others throats,but there are starting to be so many Toms,Dicks,and Harry's working without a clue of what they are doing and with no insurance or equipment..The biggest problem is that they are out there passing around fliers and running big ads in the phone book,and they bid a job ahead of you,the homeowner is going to expect your price to be comaprable to theirs.:deadhorse:


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## Timberhauler (Mar 12, 2007)

I also wanted to ad that I do have many high end clients that really don't care what the job cost...But most of them want proof if insurance up front,which of course isn't a problem for me...Then there is the average homeowner who is looking for the cheapest way out.Lots of them are willing to take the risk of letting someone do their job uninsured.There has got to be some way to keep some of these yahoo's out of this business....I can respect anyone who is trying to start their own business and better themselves,but cutting other people's throats and working too cheap will only get make them worse off than they were...If someone wants into this trade,then why not do some research on running a business,and watch how someone with a reputation handles things........Obviously most of these people will never rise above where they are


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## Ax-man (Mar 12, 2007)

It's a spring thing, your probaly just getting price shopper calls, the marginal outfits are lean and hungary to make a buck after a slow winter and you also have the part timers out doing trees either to get some firewood or make a little extra money on the side, the weather is so nice everyone and their brother are out running chainsaws. 

We go through this every spring till everyone gets their fair share of work and then the prices start to be more competitive, which is usually about May or June in our area. I know we have to raise our prices but early spring is a bad time to do it because of the cut throating that goes on. It is always much better to wait till early summer to raise prices to offset the slow season because arborists are more in demand and everyone has their fair share of work and potential clients are more attuned to having tree work performed at the price you ask for even it is higher than someone elses.


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## begleytree (Mar 12, 2007)

Lots of tree guys until they start starving out or its grass cutting time, then they're too busy for trees.
around here the new startups (ie pickup and poulan) last until summer, then they are gone. the grass guys take what they can get until the first cutting, then they are out.
IMO, the first bids are for the pickup guys. call so and so and get a price and we'll match it or beat it kinda thing. they're feeling out the market and don't know what to charge until you tell them.
we broke loose hard about 2 weeks ago. it will come. a watched pot never boils. relax, go do some spring fishing and count the calls when you get home. have faith, it will happen.
-Ralph


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## Timberhauler (Mar 12, 2007)

Thanks for all the input guys...As long as I have been in this business,I've gotten familiar with most of the patterns,but this year so far has been especially unusual....Luckily I'm kepping just enough to stay alive,but I have lots of bills that need catching up,as well as a couple of peices of equipment that need little things fixed here and there,so that makes it twice as frustrating....I'm sure it'll come around,it always does,then I'll be wishing for some idle time to cool down.


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## begleytree (Mar 12, 2007)

yeah, winter of 06/07 was the first year we didnt work at least 3 days a week all winter. heck we went 3 weeks this winter with nothing. and spring was slower to start, it seems. 
-Ralph


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## Blinky (Mar 12, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> ...
> There has got to be some way to keep some of these yahoo's out of this business....I can respect anyone who is trying to start their own business and better themselves,but cutting other people's throats and working too cheap will only get make them worse off than they were...If someone wants into this trade,then why not do some research on running a business,and watch how someone with a reputation handles things........Obviously most of these people will never rise above where they are



I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, just playing devil's advocate for minute.

It's probably better to compete with the pickup and poulan guys than to have some giant multi-national corp come in and sweep the field clean of ALL independant operators.

The reason I say that is, this is America right? Freedom and Capitalism reign... the poor and beleagured can make something of themselves with honesty, hard work and a little resourcefulness. That's fantasy, I know, but I favor the little guy over the giant... cuz I'm the little guy. We are all potential 'little guys' if some conglomerated landscaping company with huge pockets decides it wants all the tree service business in the country. 

I'm breaking into this business right now. I have a Volvo wagon, a 440, a 200T and my basic climbing and rigging gear. I climb contract for two companies right now, one a lot (pruning) and the other just a little bit (takedowns). I don't pursue jobs independently but I've done a few for people I know and who trusted me not to drop something on their house. I don't do ads or flyers but i do have business cards that say 'contract climber'. When someone calls me, I direct them to the people who employ me.

When it comes to bidding, both my employers bid lower than I would... I'm still training them. I know from experience that underbidding is baaaad juju for any business that wants to sustain itself.

I'm not a pickup hack, but I'm not 'Joe's Tree Service - in business since 1962' either. I take arborcare seriously and only want to do technical work, off the ground. I'm paying my dues right now.

One day I'll be pursuing jobs on my own, that's above board with everybody... I may still be working out of my wagon though because I simply don't want the responsibilty of owning heavy equipment... I want my life to stay simple. Give me the big tree pruning jobs, and one day, well in the future, the inventories and the consultations, and I'll be happier than a lizard on a warm rock.

I hope your phone starts ringing off the hook with work orders tomorrow. Good luck.


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## Timberhauler (Mar 13, 2007)

Blinky said:


> I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, just playing devil's advocate for minute.
> 
> It's probably better to compete with the pickup and poulan guys than to have some giant multi-national corp come in and sweep the field clean of ALL independant operators.
> 
> ...



But see,there is nothing wrong with starting small and knowing what you are doing and knowing the business.I once said that I didn't want any employee's or any equipment other than a dump truck,but once I got going,I quickly saw that I had to do something or I was gonna get bruned out fast...You'll get there.Thanks for wishing me luck.


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

> I have met with many other tree outfits around here,and we have all agreed on a standard hourly rate so we are not cutting each others throats,but there are starting to be so many Toms,Dicks,and Harry's working without a clue of what they are doing and with no insurance or equipment..The biggest problem is that they are out there passing around fliers and running big ads in the phone book,and they bid a job ahead of you,the homeowner is going to expect your price to be comaprable to theirs




I'm very new here and have been reading up as much as I could before even posting, but the above statement really surprised me, especially since no one commented on it. I understand the frustration about unprofessional people and/or businesses, but you pretty much just admitted to price fixing. Running a business without insurance is irresponsible, but probably not illegal. I think meeting with other tree businesses and agreeing on prices is just plain unethical, if not borderline illegal. How would you feel if you found out all of those small companies got together in a coordinated attempt to make sure they underbid the established businesses? Or to use another industry as as example, if all of the local oil distributors got together to agree on prices?


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## rb_in_va (Mar 13, 2007)

kevknep said:


> Or to use another industry as as example, if all of the local oil distributors got together to agree on prices?



Isn't that what OPEC does?

edit: Yep. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC


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## Timberhauler (Mar 13, 2007)

It wasn't done to set a high price so that there wasn't a cheaper way out.Some of us got together to talk about some of these non existant outfits under bidding jobs...Each business owner in this group,including myself,was not interested in bidding cheaper than the next guy.We got together to figure up some kind of standard we could go by to base our rates upon.For example if you had five different outfits bid the same job,you would still have five different prices because not everyone looks at the same job the same way,but it does bring us a little closer together on our bids so we are not cutting each others throats...This way if someone calls five different outfits to bid their job,and they get five different bids,say within three or four hundred dollars of each other,then they get some no name in that bids five hundred to a thousand dollars cheaper than everyone else,then the customer is likely to know that something isn't right...If all the little outfits got together and made a plot to underbid us,that wouldn't bother me,I've got clients who I know will use no one else,and that will keep passing my name on..My business is just a little slow,but not dead..But the only ones they would be hurting is themselves.They would never be able to afford to insure themselves,they would never afford to be able to own or maintain any equipment or hire any help.In the end,they would end up burned out from having to do everything by hand,and when and if they had an accident on a job,they would be shut down anyway.Big or small,it's a numbers game..I didn't get where I am by overbidding and getting lucky,I got here by doing good work at an honest price.I would gladly let one of these guys try and run my outfit for a month or so going by some of the rediculously low numbers I've seen bid on some of these jobs...And by the end of it all,my insurance would probably be lapsed and everything would either be broken down or out of fuel.


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

rb_in_va said:


> Isn't that what OPEC does?
> 
> edit: Yep.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC



Exactly. That is why I said local oil distributors. In the US, it is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200104/06/eng20010406_67034.html

And if we think our own companies are doing it, we will prosecute:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186289,00.html

OPEC is still made up (mostly) of countries that could care less what the US thinks of their price fixing, and of which the US is not a member.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 13, 2007)

Seems to me that Timberhauler was just letting these other guys know that there is more money to be made. Nothing wrong with educating some noobs.


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

That is one way of looking at it. But he specifically said he did it so that they didn't cut each others throats. And complained when people underbid him. That, to me, sounds like keeping market prices high for the customer. 

I apologize for sounding cynical, but I have seen too many companies try to take advantage of people (myself included). I can't believe some of the quotes people give for jobs and not understand why they get underbid. My company often gets accused of bidding too low, but our profit margin is probably the same or higher than the big companies. We buy only the equipment we need, and decided at the beginning we had no desire for big equipment at this stage. That is a competitive advantage for small to medium jobs, and allows us to bid lower and still make money. 

I only bring this up because it is possible to bid low and make money, if you don't have a huge amount of heavy equipment to pay for. There are different market niches some companies shoot for.


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## Blinky (Mar 13, 2007)

kevknep said:


> Exactly. That is why I said local oil distributors. In the US, it is illegal.
> ...
> And if we think our own companies are doing it, we will prosecute:
> ...



Well, we say that anyway. In NC it's not exactly a secret that the big road construction companies get together twice a year down East and divy up the state road contracts.

Price fixing is rampant with big corps in markets with only a few competitors. We only prosecute when they piss off some politicians. In the US, it's only illegal if you're not playing ball with the power brokers.


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

Very true. I would have to agree.


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 13, 2007)

*I'm with you*



kevknep said:


> I'm very new here and have been reading up as much as I could before even posting, but the above statement really surprised me, especially since no one commented on it. I understand the frustration about unprofessional people and/or businesses, but you pretty much just admitted to price fixing. Running a business without insurance is irresponsible, but probably not illegal. I think meeting with other tree businesses and agreeing on prices is just plain unethical, if not borderline illegal. How would you feel if you found out all of those small companies got together in a coordinated attempt to make sure they underbid the established businesses? Or to use another industry as as example, if all of the local oil distributors got together to agree on prices?




This is what it is, Price-fixing. Good call kevknep. You just beat me to the reply.

TH, for your own good you should edit your post:taped:


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

Timberhauler,

I re-read your post after the edit, and still think you are missing some points. I sincerely didn't mean to offend you or your business, and am sure you do good work. You just seem to think that "something isn't right" when someone significantly underbids you. Still, you and the other owners getting together to agree on pricing is price-fixing. You want the customer to base their choice of quality, and that is commendable. But, you don't seem to want price to come into play, which is wrong in my book.

Some businesses don't want a bucket truck, loader, lift, huge chipper, monster stump grinder etc. And because some businesses stay simple, they don't have to bid as high for the same job. You yourself referred to equipment cost and maintenance in your post. Trust me, a business can keep low overhead and still afford to insure themselves and do quality work. Now granted, I hate yahoos with no insurance, business license, etc that go around and make the profession look bad, but a low bid alone doesn't make a company a low quality operation.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 13, 2007)

It is not price fixing. They have a real problem with jacklegs. As do we here in HR, Va. (ie Kevknep)

Hey kev, your profile says you are a software engineer. As I recall no one ever got a blister from a keyboard. Who do you work for, Northrup Grumman?
Why are you arguing this. It takes real money to operate in this industry. We have a hard enough time getting our customers to understand why treework costs money as it is without Cowboys coming in and saying they can do it for half. Then they do get the job, Piss on their customers and make the ones out there trying to do a professional job look bad.

I had a lady last week tell me she would pay $1000 for a job after I told her it would be $1950. I told her I couldn't do it for that. She tells me she has never payed more than $475 for a tree to be removed. I told her to call that guy, ask for his insurance, and let me know what her yard looks like when they get done. I added if she wanted a clean, professional, timely job that was the price{1950}.

You dont want to know how many signs I have seen NAILED to trees by the road I have seen around here lately. They say TREEWORK 7575550000 in spraypaint. 

I did my time, I learned from some of the best in this area. I saved my money and bought equipment, Not pot,crack, or alcohol.

If you are reading this, and you have no insurance, experience, or equipment I MEAN YOU.


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

TreeMan587,

First off: I do have insurance and a business license and run a completely legal and legitimate business. 

And in regards to my employment, I did work for Northrop Grumman for several years, but not now. And no I never got a blister while being a software engineer, though my wrist would get sore from time to time. 

And in regards to equipment: I own as much as I need for the niche I want to compete in. In other words a small chipper (4.5" DR, go ahead laugh), Alphine Magnum Stump Grinder, and quite a bit of climbing and rigging equipment. 

You mentioned it takes real money to operate in this business, and that is probably true for anything, but it is relative to your goals. You want the big equipment, then you need to pay for it. I don't. My total start up cost was under 10 grand + my truck payment. I don't want the big equipment because I don't want the overhead. My partner and I run an LLC and had to quit advertising because we were getting more business than we wanted. So why would you call me a jack-leg? Because I don't need to add in my payment for a bucket-truck on every job I climb? 

I can understand you are tired of jack-legs. But some small businesses get very tired of bigger businesses thinking they are the only ones who can afford insurance or that they can do a good job. One of the biggest jobs I ever got was when a big company with nice equipment came in and scared the customer telling them to demand insurance, license, and the regular speech you just mentioned. When asked for the information, I politely provided it for them, and answered her questions and didn't try to sell more work. I have had multiple customers state how easy it was to get a bid and schedule work from us. Do I pass your test yet or are you convinced that since I don't have big equipment I am not a real player.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 13, 2007)

kevknep said:


> Some businesses don't want a bucket truck, loader, lift, huge chipper, monster stump grinder etc. And because some businesses stay simple, they don't have to bid as high for the same job. You yourself referred to equipment cost and maintenance in your post. Trust me, a business can keep low overhead and still afford to insure themselves and do quality work. Now granted, I hate yahoos with no insurance, business license, etc that go around and make the profession look bad, but a low bid alone doesn't make a company a low quality operation.



A job is worth what it is worth. If a person bids a job at $2000, but has no crane or bucket truck it will take longer (less $/hour). If a person has heavy equipment the job should get done quicker and he makes more $/hour, and rightfully so.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 13, 2007)

I dont have HUGE equipment. I have commercial tree care equipment needed to do a professional job. And no you havent passed my test. My test of true treecare cannot be carried out over this website.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 13, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> You dont want to know how many signs I have seen NAILED to trees by the road I have seen around here lately. They say TREEWORK 7575550000 in spraypaint.



Or stumpgrinding signs on spray-painted plywood. REEL CHEEP!


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

rb_in_va said:


> A job is worth what it is worth. If a person bids a job at $2000, but has no crane or bucket truck it will take longer (less $/hour). If a person has heavy equipment the job should get done quicker and he makes more $/hour, and rightfully so.



I agree for the most part. Efficiency does come into play, also does the amount you need per man hour. I shoot for $50/man hour for simple jobs, $75 per man hour for more highly technical jobs. But we only ever have 2 men on the site at one time, so there is no standing around. I see countless companies send a 4 or 5 man team out and at any one point 2 to 3 guys are standing around. They also had to be paid for the drive out and the drive back.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 13, 2007)

http://www.alpinemagnum.com/

Do you honestly feel that will grind a stump correctly? 

That machine does what I like to call a "Scuff 'n' Buff"

And your DR chipper wouldn't eat the first limb off those trees I bid. 

So no you are not a player, I barely am. It would have taken you two days to get those trees down and haul them. As where I would have been done in half the time, or better.

So lets do some math. $50/hr for two men over two 10 hr days is $2000 plus an extra trip to the job


Sounds more like you are getting $25 an hour if you came in and cut me off at the knees for the $1000


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> I dont have HUGE equipment. I have commercial tree care equipment needed to do a professional job. And no you havent passed my test. My test of true treecare cannot be carried out over this website.



Fair enough. Very good response. Again, I never meant to offend anyone, and if I took a combative stance, I apologize. But then again, someone did come out swinging referring to me as a jackleg. My only intent in the last couple of posts was to state that you can't judge the quality of a company or person by the amount of their bid.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 13, 2007)

:sword: opcorn:


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## kevknep (Mar 13, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> http://www.alpinemagnum.com/
> 
> Do you honestly feel that will grind a stump correctly?
> 
> ...




I was referring to player as in "play by the rules" i.e. licensed and insured. And I wouldn't expect to win the bids for big removals. 

And yes, the AlpineMagnum will grind a stump correctly. I have rented some smaller walk behinds, and will take it over them anyday. It does goes through teeth fairly quickly, but it is one heck of a little machine.

The chipper does what I need it to. Yes it is small, but I don't want a bigger chipper, which need a bigger truck to pull it, which means more expenses which means... you get the picture.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 13, 2007)

Takes money to make money.

Not going to argue anymore, I made my point. Good luck:taped:


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## Blinky (Mar 13, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> If you are reading this, and you have no insurance, experience, or equipment I MEAN YOU.



I don't want a knock down drag out here, I would just like to offer a moderate perspective.

How would you propose someone get into this business if they have little in the way of financial resources to begin with. Should they just stay out and only allow people with plenty of money and credit do it?

Price under cutting is everywhere you go, not just tree business. Price cutting is a hallmark of American Capitalism. It's unfortunate, but it is. If the employment situation in the US was better, there would be a lot less jacklegs.

The reason I'm now in this business is because the digital revolution changed commercial photgraphy forever. I was making a nice living. The volume of work has diminished to almost nothing now that anybody with a DSLR (or even a point and shoot) can shoot products and editorial. Take a look at Smithsonian or National Geographic, the quality of photography is nothing like it used to be... because now any jackleg shooter who just wants to be published can submit digitals and get printed... as long as they don't expect to be paid more than a few hundred bucks. I gave up when I saw and ad on Craig's list that offered to shoot any tabletop sized product for $15 a shot... the last straw was when I lost one of my regular customers to a Chinese studio that setup in the district where the manufacturing was done... 700 high rez (but lame) images for $2500... less than $5 a shot.

At least aerial tree work is something that not just anybody can do... unless there's a bucket truck revolution coming. My opinion is, you simply have to compete on something other than price. It sucks because most jobs are awarded on price above all else. But do you really want the cheapest customers, the kind of customers who call a spray painted number nailed to a tree? You cannot eliminate the jacklegs without eliminating capitalism... nor can you distinguish them from legit, hardworking upstarts who are hungry for work... ever been hungry for work?

I'll grant that you need to have insurance before ever pursuing customer one, but the idea that anyone doing treework should own a bunch of heavy equipment and have 10 (for the sake of arguement) years of experience is protectionist... you have to start somewhere. Paying for experience with a lower price is a time tested way to build a business. People do it all the time. You already know that you can't live on low bids for very long. Once you have that experience and the equipment, you can stop bottom feeding and continue to grow on quality and service. If you never had quality and service, you'd be out of business before reaching that point.

I agree that the jacklegs degrade the volume of available business, I agree that they keep arboriculture undervalued as a service... and I honestly do feel where you're coming from... I lost a business and a very substantial life savings to jackleg photography... but this is America and competition is how we do business.

Price fixing is a dirty trick played by powerful companies that don't want to compete... it's cooperative monopoly. That's not what Timberhauler is talking about... they don't have a monopoly and the barriers to entry in the tree service business are low... you can't effectively fix prices in that environment.


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## oldirty (Mar 13, 2007)

*hmmmmm*

kevknap.

your equipment is, how do i say....laughable at best.

if your running those particular pieces (dr and that grinder) i would hate to see your saddle. what are you using for ropes? clothesline?

not for nothing pal but those are the tools you find in the shed of a homeowner. that same shed you have to move to get out of your way so you can do the tree.


although i will say this. good luck


oldirty


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## Tree Slayer (Mar 13, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> ..I have met with many other tree outfits around here,and we have all agreed on a standard hourly rate so we are not cutting each others throats,but there are starting to be so many Toms,Dicks,and Harry's working without a clue of what they are doing and with no insurance or equipment..The biggest problem is that they are out there passing around fliers and running big ads in the phone book,and they bid a job ahead of you,the homeowner is going to expect your price to be comaprable to theirs.:deadhorse:


Collusion is a term to refer to acts of cooperation or collaboration among rival entities.

In the study of economics and market competition, "collusion" takes place within an industry when rival companies cooperate for their mutual benefit. Collusion most often takes place within the market form of oligopoly, where the decision of a few firms to collude can significantly impact the market as a whole. Cartels are a special case of explicit collusion. Collusion which is not overt, on the other hand, is known as tacit collusion. Collusion is largely illegal in the United States (as well as Canada and most of the EU) due to antitrust law, but implicit collusion in the form of price leadership and tacit understandings still takes place. 
If you have ever done any large jobs with large contracts that is a big no no, and it is in writing.


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## tzelmet (Mar 13, 2007)

*pricing wars*

What a serious disussion, I'll keep it brief and readable. We all started somewhere. Inform clients when you are bidding that they are taking risks with no insurance. Who do they think is going to pay if something goes wrong?

Ask them, I find often, they think it is cost free to them. 
They are wrong indeed. 
Anything goes wrong; Power disruption, injury, damage, and their insurance is going to pay the bill. I know tree guys that walk from jobs when they go bad. These fly by nighters give us all a bad name, least of all a bad image for tree work in general. 
Fight ignorance with education. 
These ignorant tree workers will have to stop smoking the pipe and hit the books or find a new line of work!!
Great topic it affects us all. My solution has been to establish myself in the local community as a top notch climber. When people check me out, the know that I can do what I say. And by the way, I've done work for dirt prices as well, so hate me if you must, but I am here to stay, God willing. All I ask is to have a heart, Cause we are all in the same boat. 
Besides, guys come in and out of this business all the time. The work will sort out the losers from the stars. Keep pushing forward and believing in yourself and you will elevate. 



Oh yea, the truth often hurts!


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## Timberhauler (Mar 13, 2007)

Here is what I have...I have a Bandit 250XP chipper,I recently sold my drum chipper..I have an international 18ft dump truck with grapple,a Freightliner straight single axle truck.20ft with logging standers,a cat 257 rubber track loader,an 865 new holland,a ford f-450 with a 12 foot dump bed...I have four employee's,five if you count my wife whenever she helps out...I also have a part timer who helps me on Fridays and Saturdays.I keep new saws,I rotate them about every other year to keep from having a suprise breakdown..I'm constantly replacing lowering and climbing lines as they wear...I do not only do tree work,I do small timber clearing as well..Usually up to about five acres..So ..I'm not a huge outfit,I could probably cut my helpers down to one or two,and would be able to make it still...Which of this outfit that goes out in the morning depends on the jobs,and what we'll need,but it's most always the F-450 pulling the chipper,and the grapple truck.I do not own a bucket truck,nor will I ever as long as I can climb.90% of the jobs I do,I wouldn't be able to get a bucket into if I had one anyway...Again,not everyone in the tree business in this county got together and set a price so we could gouge people...Most of us were friends anyway.There are still plenty of others that weren't in on this.As far as contract bidding,I don't do it.I'm not even interested in taking on any contracts,but I do alot of very big jobs.Given what I have here,I've been in the business all my life,but on my own for fifteen years...I have three children,and now my wife is not working,so all of the load right now is on my shoulders...So tell me..What some of you who are in disagreement with me do????..If the ball was in your court,and you're out honestly bidding jobs,and you are losing one after another to some jackleg that doesn't have any idea of what he's doing in the first place...


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## Tree Slayer (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm just telling you to be carefull about your statement. As far as the low ball guys go that all goes away as soon as spring gets into gear and theres more work for everyone.So stick to your guns and do good work at a fair price and everything will be good. I'v been doing this 25 years, and these hacks come and go all the time. Now all I have to do is figure out how to pay my workers comp bill this year 37K for a five man crew


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## tzelmet (Mar 13, 2007)

Timber hauler I hear you. I sympathize. My thoughts are this:

If I could set the price for treework I would and it would be high!
Let all the politics aside and consider, I risk my life for money. Bottom line, I don't do this for fun. That is a side benefit for me because I have to work to pay the bills. I can say for all tree guys that this is real work. Not sitting at some lame desk and punching buttons all day.

I would set the price so high people would respect us even more because right now they don't. Some do, but most don't, even though they can't or wouldn't do it. There is always someone cheaper. I say that to about 90% of the clients I bid because that's what they always tell me. It is frustrating as hell. Wish we could just throw down a price like $12.00 for a steak and people would pay because they want it. Or lets say $3.50 for a beer at some joints and they think we can afford this by working for the wood!

I had some guy ask me last week on a bid if I would do it for the wood!
I about fell out of my chair. We were sitting at his kitchen table. I had to get out of there quick, cause I felt insulted, to be honest, and a little pissed. Oh well, I can tell from his yard that he doesn't want to spend a dime on his trees.


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## tzelmet (Mar 13, 2007)

Two things And I'm done;
Contracts, ummm, good!!!
And second, Good luck This season to all, cause it looks like we all have some serious business to do. I know I do.


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## Blinky (Mar 13, 2007)

tzelmet said:


> ...
> 
> I had some guy ask me last week on a bid if I would do it for the wood!
> I about fell out of my chair. We were sitting at his kitchen table. I had to get out of there quick, cause I felt insulted, to be honest, and a little pissed. Oh well, I can tell from his yard that he doesn't want to spend a dime on his trees.



That's pretty funny. Some people really are clueless. I can see it on a tshirt or the side of a truck... 'Will work for wood'.


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## B-Edwards (Mar 13, 2007)

I hear ya on the jacklegs, I have started making sure every job i bid on that they know if someone doesn't have insurance that they( the homeowner) are responsible if something gets torn up or someone hurt. I also go into detail about the clean-up and any damage to lawn that we will fix. I always leave with saying just make sure they bid on what I bid on, if they can destroy stuff cheap so can I. Around here right now I have masons grass cutters and everyone else trying to do tree work and they also want me to get them out of the hole they made trying to do something they weren't capable of to start with . It pisses me off when they think its so easy and then want help after they undercut me to get the job . The only price I ever talk about to other tree peps is what I charge an hour we don't decide what I will charge I do, but I want them to know so the cheap homeowner doesn't say he said he would do it for this when this isn't true. Good luck the work will come sit back play with the kids and laugh at the clowns. Apply the word clown wherever you like .


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## Industry (Mar 13, 2007)

oldirty said:


> kevknap.
> 
> your equipment is, how do i say....laughable at best.
> 
> ...


Perhaps he spent what little he could afford to invest in his business on his Most Important equipment, like lines and saddles, and INSURANCE! at least the guy is trying to support himself. He could be trying to live off your wages in the form of Government social programs. Just because the guy doesn't have a Morbark Typhoon or a Stump grinder big enough for it's own zip code, he is Laughable? Too bad. Someday I might like to start a climbing business but being the only income earner in my household(so my wife can stay home to raise our daughter) I probably will have to start small too. Guess I will just have to settle for being Ridiculed as well. 

In my state you are in violation of state law if you bid tree work without an arborist license. If you don't have insurance MOST homeowner policies WON'T cover the damage done, it will either be the tree worker or homeowner. That is something that a Licensed and Insured Arborist here in Maine has for ammo against severe underbidding by guys who have no coverage.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 13, 2007)

begleytree said:


> yeah, winter of 06/07 was the first year we didnt work at least 3 days a week all winter. heck we went 3 weeks this winter with nothing. and spring was slower to start, it seems.
> -Ralph



Holy smokes!! Tha ridiculous man!! Glad i'm not in ohio-our bucket crews went to three days a week for a couple weeks this winter but us climbers have had a backlog of work all winter. Kind of wished it had slowed down a bit during the below zero days. 

Skimming through this thread, i thought i noticed something interesting. All the guys who are complaining about lowball hackers seem to be from down south. I'll admit, there are alot of tree companies in the area i work. In fact i can think of seven different companies off the top of my head within a half hour from my house. But they are all fairly well established-the newest one has been around for about 5 years now. There is quit a bit of bidding action between the companies, but they all have similar profit needs-the bids are usually within a couple hundred dollars of each other from what i've seen. Usually depends on who needs the work the worst. (And it helps that there is a ton of tree work around here.) But the lowball companies don't seem to surface much around here. We have more problems with the homeowners deciding the cost is too much and deciding to do the job themselves. (Boy, can that get interesting!) But i've worked all over western and central new york and this seems to be the case-tons of tree companies, but not any lowball, hackers with just a truck and a poulan. This is just what i've seen-am i wrong or right? Thoughts?


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## Treeman587 (Mar 13, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> \:
> 
> Skimming through this thread, i thought i noticed something interesting. All the guys who are complaining about lowball hackers seem to be from down south. \?




Hurricanes. A storm comes in, They see tree guys making a ton of money for a few months and think that is how it is all the time.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks-that makes sense.


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## oldirty (Mar 13, 2007)

hey industry i never said the cat was laughable. just the equip that is running down the road. 

if he is any good you know he'll be upgrading. no way you cant simple as that.


if it walks like like a duck.......


oldirty


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## Ed Roland (Mar 13, 2007)

It was a no brainer 4 me. I climbed for the big "B" many for years. Moved to Columbia, South Carolina, a location they dont service, so I started out on my own. Im lucky that there are few, skilled, ISA Cert. arborist here. I get to perform high end premium work and never advertise as all my projects are word of mouth. So, Kevnap, get a hort/forestry degree, get certified, obtain your dump truck and DECENT chipper. There will be more work than you can handle and best of all its $rewarding$ to perform scientific based work when the 'other' fellas are trying to prune from an extension ladder.


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## Timberhauler (Mar 13, 2007)

I've done a job or two in Columbia


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## lees trees (Mar 13, 2007)

*hourly rate*

works for my little business and we charge travel also been doing it for 18 years, and make money on every job. treeing since 76 and sure came along way. we've seen them come and go.


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## begleytree (Mar 13, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> Holy smokes!! Tha ridiculous man!! Glad i'm not in ohio-our bucket crews went to three days a week for a couple weeks this winter but us climbers have had a backlog of work all winter. Kind of wished it had slowed down a bit during the below zero days.



I'm in a small midwest town of 30K people, not a city or big area. time off in the cold and snow imo is not a bad thing. anyone smart plans for the downtime and saves. makes for a nice vacation when you don't wanna be out in it anyway. I usually schedule work in winter around the weather, and feel sorry for the poor guys out in the -10 wind chill climbing some tree.
yeah, last /this winter was slower than usual, but I wasn't complaining!
and I keep my expenses low as possible too, so that helps.
if I had more work I'd need more equipment (and the expense that goes with it) and Id have to work in the real nasty weather to pay for it. I've worked hard to find a balance of work, expenses, good money and family time.
I'm at the point that I'm as big as I want to be. I usually take off a day or so a week in spring/summer to go fishing too. usually load up the boat and take the crew with. we act like we went to work all day. plus company camping trips where we shut down thrus evening and load out fri morning until sunday afternoon. usually hunt a day or 2 a week in the fall early winter. too much work burns a guy out. After a 12 year marriage that eventually ended due to me working too much and 2 kids I don't even know (to this day), I learned that there's more to life than living to work for a living. at one time I was a 30 year old fit and trim guy on high blood pressure meds. no longer. 
they say youth is wasted on the young and lifes too short. I have decided (and learned) to enjoy it while I am young enough to do the things I want to do and I spend a lot of time with my kids. at one time I calculated I spent 12 hours a week with my family not counting sleep, but counting times when they should be home but were not and were doing their other activities. and for those 12 hours I was so wound up trying to slow down for the evening that no one could stand to be around me even if I was home. 
so I changed my outlook, I work to make money to pay the bills and live my life. ask a person who they are and most times you get their job title. well, a treeman is no longer who I am. I am first and foremost a father and husband, who happens to cut trees to support his family and have money to do things with them.
I don't like cheese, so I go out of the rat race. 
-Ralph


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## Ed Roland (Mar 14, 2007)

damn Begley, thats deep 4 a tree man. Sounds like u got it figured out.


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## begleytree (Mar 14, 2007)

woodweasel said:


> damn Begley, thats deep 4 a tree man. Sounds like u got it figured out.



oh no, I sure don't have it all figured out! I have made good strides towards my goals of being who I want to be, where I want to be, but theres always room for improvement!
we spend so much time planting roses, I wonder if any of us actually stop to smell them? you get what I mean even if we dont really plant roses very often!
ever know people who look foreward to their vacation and hate going back to work after it ends? I ask why live like that? why not live a vacation and work when we want to? 
imo, the way this world and our lives are, is not the way it was intended to be. 

-Ralph


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## Ed Roland (Mar 14, 2007)

begleytree said:


> ever know people who look foreward to their vacation and hate going back to work after it ends? I ask why live like that?-Ralph



I hear you, luckily, as climbing arborist, we can charge a premium for our 'high end' work. That allows the enlightened to 'choose' to make less but have more family time. I had a slow start last year but had a nice 'run' during the HOT season. My phone started 2 blow up about this time last year. wup.. hey. hold on i got a call...


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## kevknep (Mar 14, 2007)

oldirty said:


> kevknap.
> 
> your equipment is, how do i say....laughable at best.
> 
> ...



Why does my lack of larger equipment mean I might not know what I am doing? To answer your questions I use two saddles. I have been using a Versatile for a while and just recently got a Glide 2. Just in case you are wondering they were both new. My main ropes are a 200' hank of NewEngland Safety Blue (hi-vis) and a 150' hank of Poison Ivy (hi-vis) for climbing. I have several rigging lines ranging from 9/16 stable braid down to 3 strand. 

Are you implying that I need at least a 6" chipper and self propelled stump grinder to know how to climb or rig? I don't have more expensive equipment because I just don't need it now. I can't compete with the larger companies for the bigger jobs and I know it. That is not where I choose to compete at this point. The chipper takes care of the smallest annoying stuff that I don't want on the trailer. The stump grinder allows me to remove most stumps for customers so I don't have to worry about subbing anything out.

If I also said I was a free-lance climber would you make the same comments about my saddle and ropes? 

And no I don't need to move sheds out of the way to take trees down. Why do you feel the need to attack me? Your comment is like me asking if you have ever used a bucket truck, and then accusing you of not being able to climb because you use one. 

My original intent when posting several pages ago, was to offer a different point of view. Someone mentioned how if someone underbid by half, they had to be a hack. Let me give this example: I look at a job and think it will take 4 hours for my 2 man crew. Another person thinks 6 for their crew. I shoot for $50/man hr, they shoot for $75/man hr. My bid would be 50 * 4 * 2 = $400. Their bid would be 75 * 2 * 6 = $900. Now lets say the job really took 2 people 5 hrs. I try not under estimate, but sometimes it happens. We both were off by 1 hr. Was my bid really that far off?

In any case, I don't want to propagate an argument. I definintely concede I still have a lot to learn and that I currently have a non-standard approach. If things go a certain way, I might end up buying more equipment and wondering why I ever purchased what I have now.


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## oldirty (Mar 14, 2007)

kevknep said:


> If things go a certain way, I might end up buying more equipment and wondering why I ever purchased what I have now.



that was my point.

those are "homer" tools (homer=home owner)

by nature ,my friend , i come off as sarcastic potentially even arrogant. 

look up the word buzzard in the dictionary. 3rd def. 
that's me. 
oldirty buzzard

lol

although with mr begley waxing poetic, he gets one thinking.

and i did mean it when i said good luck. honestly. i may be unpleasant or otherwise avaricious but i dont wish ill will upon no man.
beyond them days.




oldirty


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## Sunrise Guy (Mar 14, 2007)

oldirty said:


> (snip)i may be unpleasant or otherwise avaricious but i dont wish ill will upon no man.-oldirty



Ah, so you do wish ill upon some men? Gotta watch those double negatives, LOL!


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## Industry (Mar 14, 2007)

Well, I will offer my apologies for being quick to take offense.


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## oldirty (Mar 14, 2007)

lol sunrise

the resume says "some college"

the school of hard knocks that i go to now doesnt have an english department.

lol

no sweat industry

odb


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## kevknep (Mar 14, 2007)

oldirty said:


> that was my point.
> 
> those are "homer" tools (homer=home owner)
> 
> ...



I appreciate the post. I'm sure I went on the defensive fairly quickly. Best of luck with your business too.


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## oldirty (Mar 14, 2007)

my business is to make my boss as much money as i can. the more money i make him the more money i earn.

so far business is good.

thanks knep.

be right.


odb


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## Timberhauler (Mar 14, 2007)

begleytree said:


> I'm in a small midwest town of 30K people, not a city or big area. time off in the cold and snow imo is not a bad thing. anyone smart plans for the downtime and saves. makes for a nice vacation when you don't wanna be out in it anyway. I usually schedule work in winter around the weather, and feel sorry for the poor guys out in the -10 wind chill climbing some tree.
> yeah, last /this winter was slower than usual, but I wasn't complaining!
> and I keep my expenses low as possible too, so that helps.
> if I had more work I'd need more equipment (and the expense that goes with it) and Id have to work in the real nasty weather to pay for it. I've worked hard to find a balance of work, expenses, good money and family time.
> ...



When I first started out,I was working from daylight til' dark everyday,sometimes seven days a week....Now we try to only work three or four so we have a little time to enjoy.I could probably easily add another crew and go into more debt to buy more equipment,but it would give me more to stress about...My wife recently took a leave of absence from her job so we could try and add one more child to our mix,so that's gonna be a little more weight to pull for a while.During deer season,I take at least two days a week and do nothing but hunt,during the rest of the year,my son and I fish.I'd like to be able to just hand this business down to my children when I get ready so they won't have the struggle I did getting into it.


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## Ax-man (Mar 14, 2007)

begleytree said:


> I'm in a small midwest town of 30K people, not a city or big area. time off in the cold and snow imo is not a bad thing. anyone smart plans for the downtime and saves. makes for a nice vacation when you don't wanna be out in it anyway. I usually schedule work in winter around the weather, and feel sorry for the poor guys out in the -10 wind chill climbing some tree.
> yeah, last /this winter was slower than usual, but I wasn't complaining!
> and I keep my expenses low as possible too, so that helps.
> if I had more work I'd need more equipment (and the expense that goes with it) and Id have to work in the real nasty weather to pay for it. I've worked hard to find a balance of work, expenses, good money and family time.
> ...



Most excellent post,   enjoyed reading it. 

Larry


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## arborworks1 (Mar 14, 2007)

so very true about working so hard to make a name and get established. now you learn to readjust to everyday life again. 


And yes Columbia is lacking in high quality Tree guys, We worked for 3 weeks straight in one neighborhood. We are also about 60 miles away from columbia.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 16, 2007)

begleytree said:


> I work to make money to pay the bills and live my life. ask a person who they are and most times you get their job title. well, a treeman is no longer who I am. I am first and foremost a father and husband, who happens to cut trees to support his family and have money to do things with them.
> I don't like cheese, so I go out of the rat race.
> -Ralph



I got to say ralph, i'm impressed. Not many guys i know seem to have their priorities straight in life. 


Btw, just noticed-you never struck me as a douglas adams fan. Been reading him since i was a teenager. Thought provoking stuff presented in a humorous manner. love it!


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## begleytree (Mar 16, 2007)

LMAO
I love reading douglas adams! and Pat McManus, if it wasn't for him I'd have dropped my _Outdoor life_ subscription long ago!
You're the first to notice that in the sig line.
-Ralph


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## SRT-Tech (Mar 16, 2007)

This is what this thread is conveying so far:

- if a guy has a chainsaw other than a Stihl or a Husky, he is a jackleg.

- if a guy has a pickup truck and any chainsaw other than Stihl & Husky, he is a jackleg

- if a guy does'nt have massive overhead in the form of $200,000+ chippers, fancy trucks, boom lifts, he is a jackleg

- a guy can be experienced in climbing, own a Blaze2 or Versital Saddle, nice ropes, and because all he owns is some climbing gear and a, gasp, tiny stump grinder, he is still a jackleg

- only those with a gazzillibillion $$$ worth of equipment are allowed to work, everyone else is a jackleg that should not be working. 

- even though this is America, and people can charge whatever they want, those that charge less than the guy with all the fancy equipment, are jacklegs. 

- if a guy cannot remove all the tree trimmings and firewood in one day, he is a jackleg. 


wow


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## treevet (Mar 16, 2007)

Is a jackleg a goodthing or a bad thing?


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## Booshcat (Mar 19, 2007)

Dont forget that if you are also one of the biggies with all of the $$$$$
you can get together with the other biggies and fix prices in your area


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## Streyken (Mar 19, 2007)

I think it's already been mentioned in various forms throughout this thread that price fixing for tree work is a practical impossibility unless everyone agreed to work only on an hourly rate, which given that there are over 50 tree companies in my immediate area is unlikely, plus most customers want a fixed price. 

Compared to the big guys my prices are much less, but I still put between 100 and 150 an hour in my pocket and that's working alone with a pickup truck. I'm just now thinking of getting a chipper. There are many jobs I pass on to friends with larger crews and equipment. Work hard, work fast, work safe.

I don't want to have to go to work. I like my job three days a week, if I feel like taking the day off and doing something with the family I do. I spend 2-3 months a year in Mexico and I don't have to worry about employees or equipment overhead. I've been doing this a fair while and I'm constantly having to draw boundaries to stay small, the upside to me personally is worth it; it all depends on your circumstance, desire and priorities.


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## Soul Assassin (Mar 19, 2007)

I started with a pickup. I also had a BS in Forestry and prior training in climbing. 

At the time, I didn't have a bunch of cash to dump into equipment. I always carried insurance, bought a saw here and there, new saddle, ropes when the jobs were coming in.

I busted my ass with a "pickup" for two years, and made loyal customers who told all thier friends and relatives etc. I learned every new technique I could find.......dove into the art of arborculture. I wanted it, I was gonna make it happen. I played by the rules.

Four years later, I have more work than I can complete...hundreds of loyal customers, and a thriving tree care company. Not too shabby for a dude starting with a pickup.


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## hermit63 (Mar 19, 2007)

tzelmet said:


> Timber hauler I hear you. I sympathize. My thoughts are this:
> 
> If I could set the price for treework I would and it would be high!
> Let all the politics aside and consider, I risk my life for money. Bottom line, I don't do this for fun. That is a side benefit for me because I have to work to pay the bills. I can say for all tree guys that this is real work. Not sitting at some lame desk and punching buttons all day.
> ...



I work with guys that have portable mills,
If anyone asks if you will do it for the wood tell'em its not worth it...but that they can pay you extra for leaving it.


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## hermit63 (Mar 19, 2007)

*yah hoo*

I should also say that I can remember 20+ years back when I first placed a sling w/a biner on a limb above me, I was walking out on to rederect, and was yelled at by my supervisor to take it out because, I would have to climb back to it to get it out, and that if myTIP was in the correct place I would'nt need it. This was the best climber and tree company in the state at the time.
I have worked w/ the best and have been doing side work for a long time now on a shoe string. I hope anyone with a ladder, Mcullah, and a pickup gose out there to trim (raise) a tree, just makes me look that much better. Also a tree around me is not "trimmed" til its toped, so go fly your bucket wat chance do I have?


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## Timberhauler (Mar 20, 2007)

SRT-Tech said:


> This is what this thread is conveying so far:
> 
> - if a guy has a chainsaw other than a Stihl or a Husky, he is a jackleg.
> 
> ...



In my opinion a jackleg is someone in this business who is out there with little or no experience at what they are doing,purposely underbidding jobs,carrying no insurance,and doing poor quality work.There are several of them around here that will go to a homeowner and tell them to get a couple of quotes,then they will come back with a far cheaper bid...Or they they will even advertise something like "Gauranteed cheaper than the rest"...I personally could careless what kind of equipment they have.Everyone has to start somewhere,and I never said I had a problem with the ones working out of a pick-up truck,and I could care less what kind of saws they are using..I have several friends who have just recently left a large outfit they were working for and trying to make it on their own,I'm not putting anyone down for trying to better themselves.But there is a difference in trying to better yourself and purposely trying to take jobs away from other people.Having all the equipment that I now need,I didn't get it by being overly expensive,I got it by building a large enough customer base to where I could afford it...For me,my equipment is not about charging more,it's for production and getting jobs done more safely and effeciently.


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## treevet (Mar 20, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> In my opinion a jackleg is someone in this business who is out there with little or no experience at what they are doing,purposely underbidding jobs,carrying no insurance,and doing poor quality work.There are several of them around here that will go to a homeowner and tell them to get a couple of quotes,then they will come back with a far cheaper bid...Or they they will even advertise something like "Gauranteed cheaper than the rest"...I personally could careless what kind of equipment they have.Everyone has to start somewhere,and I never said I had a problem with the ones working out of a pick-up truck,and I could care less what kind of saws they are using..I have several friends who have just recently left a large outfit they were working for and trying to make it on their own,I'm not putting anyone down for trying to better themselves.But there is a difference in trying to better yourself and purposely trying to take jobs away from other people.Having all the equipment that I now need,I didn't get it by being overly expensive,I got it by building a large enough customer base to where I could afford it...For me,my equipment is not about charging more,it's for production and getting jobs done more safely and effeciently.



Timberhauler, I agree not "putting anyone down for trying to better themselves" as long as they "just do the right thing". Missleading customers re ins coverage or need for removal or any other treatment while trying to better themselves financially is what gets us. A company drove 60 miles to my town 2 weeks and told an oldlady she should take 5 trees down bcs of EAB. We don t have EAB in the area yet and 2 of the trees weren t ashes.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 20, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> In my opinion a jackleg is someone in this business who is out there with little or no experience at what they are doing,purposely underbidding jobs,carrying no insurance,and doing poor quality work.There are several of them around here that will go to a homeowner and tell them to get a couple of quotes,then they will come back with a far cheaper bid...Or they they will even advertise something like "Gauranteed cheaper than the rest"...I personally could careless what kind of equipment they have.Everyone has to start somewhere,and I never said I had a problem with the ones working out of a pick-up truck,and I could care less what kind of saws they are using..I have several friends who have just recently left a large outfit they were working for and trying to make it on their own,I'm not putting anyone down for trying to better themselves.But there is a difference in trying to better yourself and purposely trying to take jobs away from other people.Having all the equipment that I now need,I didn't get it by being overly expensive,I got it by building a large enough customer base to where I could afford it...For me,my equipment is not about charging more,it's for production and getting jobs done more safely and effeciently.


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## SRT-Tech (Mar 20, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> In my opinion a jackleg is someone in this business who is out there with little or no experience at what they are doing,purposely underbidding jobs,carrying no insurance,and doing poor quality work.There are several of them around here that will go to a homeowner and tell them to get a couple of quotes,then they will come back with a far cheaper bid...Or they they will even advertise something like "Gauranteed cheaper than the rest"...I personally could careless what kind of equipment they have.Everyone has to start somewhere,and I never said I had a problem with the ones working out of a pick-up truck,and I could care less what kind of saws they are using..I have several friends who have just recently left a large outfit they were working for and trying to make it on their own,I'm not putting anyone down for trying to better themselves.But there is a difference in trying to better yourself and purposely trying to take jobs away from other people.Having all the equipment that I now need,I didn't get it by being overly expensive,I got it by building a large enough customer base to where I could afford it...For me,my equipment is not about charging more,it's for production and getting jobs done more safely and effeciently.



i know TH, i was just being my usual caustic, sarcastic self. Humor is all, jest humour.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2007)

*frustraited*

hey I understand where you are coming from I have been slow this year since mid dec. It stinks and I have even thought of and applied to work a job! 
The thing is the pickup guys may even be working without a privilege license which has a hefty fine. I can't wish bad on no one but honest hard working businesses are the ones that suffer the most! And even though I know change is inevitable I work to prosper not to get by! The way things are structured in our country; at present, all anyone can do is get by. I started part time with a pickup, climb gear and necessities, but was a foreman on power line trimming over twenty years and quit this year due to nepotism.
I had been operating part time successfully because I only done customers that would pay my price. Now that I have a bucket, grapple, stumper,tractor and am full time its so hard to make profit that I almost wish I stayed pickup guy! I had a dream at first that may become a nightmare soon!
I have been getting rude to the salesmen that seem to have radar and call in times they shouldn't, but if something doesn't break soon I will have to go back to work for someone else. I am in debt because of the cutthroats and they are stealing work but can't be making money cause I have had to lower prices to get any work and I get work done faster and better than they do with no equipment but I hate to lower price when everyone that I pay are raising them especially insurance!! funny thing never had a claim why does it go up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry if this doesn't help and for the way this is broken up having trouble with computer:welcome: 
]


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## Soul Assassin (Mar 21, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> hey I understand where you are coming from I have been slow this year since mid dec. It stinks and I have even thought of and applied to work a job!
> The thing is the pickup guys may even be working without a privilege license which has a hefty fine. I can't wish bad on no one but honest hard working businesses are the ones that suffer the most! And even though I know change is inevitable I work to prosper not to get by! The way things are structured in our country; at present, all anyone can do is get by. I started part time with a pickup, climb gear and necessities, but was a foreman on power line trimming over twenty years and quit this year due to nepotism.
> I had been operating part time successfully because I only done customers that would pay my price. Now that I have a bucket, grapple, stumper,tractor and am full time its so hard to make profit that I almost wish I stayed pickup guy! I had a dream at first that may become a nightmare soon!
> I have been getting rude to the salesmen that seem to have radar and call in times they shouldn't, but if something doesn't break soon I will have to go back to work for someone else. I am in debt because of the cutthroats and they are stealing work but can't be making money cause I have had to lower prices to get any work and I get work done faster and better than they do with no equipment but I hate to lower price when everyone that I pay are raising them especially insurance!! funny thing never had a claim why does it go up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry if this doesn't help and for the way this is broken up having trouble with computer:welcome:
> ]



When I first asked a small sucessfull businesman what the key to making it in any business..the most important thing I asked, he replied "Grow as your business grows". This is not directed at the above poster, but I have seen so many times guys get into the biz, buy all this expensive equipment, max out credit cards...and then it gets slow.....and then they sweat...the bank comes a knockin'. To blame it on hacks underbidding in my humble opinion is a lame excuse (again, not directed at anyone in particular).

If you make smart choices, keep your feet on the ground, work hard and ethically, you'll be fine. If all your equipment is paid for, and you have low overhead, you have the advantage of keeping your sanity when things get slow or you're in a slump. If you stick with it, it will turn around.

When I was The "pickup" guy, many times I would see competition walking up as soon as I left, to give a second, third bid.......these guys always had the new trucks...etc. I could give a lower bid, make money and laugh at these guys...while they sat there wondering "Why can't I get the jobs ?" The only difference between me and them was I had low overhead, an almost obsessive desire to make my biz a winner, and I owed no one. 

In my view "cut-throats, who steal work" is called capitalism, if they are playing by the rules and are qualified and knowledgable. Let's face it, swim with the sharks.......change in an instant, turn on a dime. Blaming your business failure to "hacks" who under bid you (again, not meant for a specific poster) is an attitude sure to help you go belly up. I prefer to look at what I can do to beat my competition, and it's not that hard when I see these guys riding around in new pickup trucks, leased....with quizzical looks on thier faces.....lol, while a half a million dollars in equipment sits in the yard ready to go......back to the bank. Lol. Just my 3 cents.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2007)

*grow as business grows*



Soul Assassin said:


> When I first asked a small sucessfull businesman what the key to making it in any business..the most important thing I asked, he replied "Grow as your business grows". This is not directed at the above poster, but I have seen so many times guys get into the biz, buy all this expensive equipment, max out credit cards...and then it gets slow.....and then they sweat...the bank comes a knockin'. To blame it on hacks underbidding in my humble opinion is a lame excuse (again, not directed at anyone in particular).
> 
> If you make smart choices, keep your feet on the ground, work hard and ethically, you'll be fine. If all your equipment is paid for, and you have low overhead, you have the advantage of keeping your sanity when things get slow or you're in a slump. If you stick with it, it will turn around.
> 
> ...


 You are giving good advice there, but I climbed and stacked on a trailer nearly two years before buying a bucket and have used equipment! Also; I agree it is not the hacks and to me, its the greedy people who use the cheapest bid and they get what they pay for usually! My customer base all call me back< and referral work is good but, have lost income due to circumstances beyond control and been thrusted in full time; and finding it hard to compete with,
price shopping crowd who doesn't compare apples!!If there were enough of the other customers where I live I would be in great shape.
I bought equipment while working for a twelve year employer who became unhealthy to work for , and when I purchased the equipment it was because i was burning out and needed easier methods of getting work done !!! With both jobs my purchases were a breeze and was growing fine and didn't have to work for the cheapskates ! I will make it I just feel the risks and all should be better compensated I do not throw caution to the wind and try to make sound decisions on money matters I however live in under paid over taxed state.
I am not getting younger and have put in time and try to stay positive but so much money goes to people who do nothing and get big returns they keep the little guy down and thats where I'm coming from!!opcorn:


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## treevet (Mar 21, 2007)

Ropeandsaddle you mentioned insurance and having no claims. I mentioned to Ins co the same thing a while back and his answer was "you re due for one then". Alot of complaints about bad competition thru this thread. Better than having real good competition. I don t want to sound aloof but I wouldn t want to have me for competition around here. I want to kick my comp s ass every day. Along time ago I decided to dedicate myself to learning. I studied every night and when Shigo came along it became much easier. I wrote down a list of all the dream equipment I wanted and year after year I have gotten it. It is all used but it is all paid for and not a liability but an asset (not overhead). It is constantly improved and sometimes replaced and upgraded.Work is not so hard anymore but sort of a choreography of equipment in and out. It works bcs I don t travel far and old stuff doesn t travel so well. I am in a wealthy uppermiddle class area and they all know me. The first thing being done right is being on this forum and looking for answers. Complaining and whining is not the answer. I live in a neighborhood w doctors and lawyers and pilots and I am just a me and another guy tree svc. The biggest key to my improvement was sobriety. Things have gotten drastically better every year for 17 plus years now.


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## Timberhauler (Mar 21, 2007)

I'm well too established to actually be worrying about jacklegs...It just got overly frustrating during this past slow season when there were several of them trying to bum stuff off of me in one way or another...Then they always seemed busy,while we were twiddling our thumbs,and I was paying a few of my guys to come in and clean out trucks,wash them and help me with my yard work...Things have done a 180 in the last week,and now I am about two weeks behind.....I don't have to worry about the bank showing up at my door to reclaim anything...It's all paid for.I've stayed as small as I possibly could over the years,and it's paid off,and is less of a headache.


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## treevet (Mar 21, 2007)

I know what you mean. Sometimes in the darkest hours of your slow period you can t help but wonder if anyone is (ever) going to call you again. It s real hard to sell work then.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 22, 2007)

treevet said:


> Ropeandsaddle you mentioned insurance and having no claims. I mentioned to Ins co the same thing a while back and his answer was "you re due for one then". Alot of complaints about bad competition thru this thread. Better than having real good competition. I don t want to sound aloof but I wouldn t want to have me for competition around here. I want to kick my comp s ass every day. Along time ago I decided to dedicate myself to learning. I studied every night and when Shigo came along it became much easier. I wrote down a list of all the dream equipment I wanted and year after year I have gotten it. It is all used but it is all paid for and not a liability but an asset (not overhead). It is constantly improved and sometimes replaced and upgraded.Work is not so hard anymore but sort of a choreography of equipment in and out. It works bcs I don t travel far and old stuff doesn t travel so well. I am in a wealthy uppermiddle class area and they all know me. The first thing being done right is being on this forum and looking for answers. Complaining and whining is not the answer. I live in a neighborhood w doctors and lawyers and pilots and I am just a me and another guy tree svc. The biggest key to my improvement was sobriety. Things have gotten drastically better every year for 17 plus years now.


 Hey I didn't mean to sound as if I was whining but you may have a point after rereading post!
I didn't create the topic just understand it,and I'm the few companies in my neighborhood that doesn't mention topping in their ads so when my competition gets educated you may have a point.
I try very hard to keep my reputation for ethics and fair business practicesuntarnished and am a member of the bbb .
Customer told me I was the only one out of 22 that had this distinction. I to had a blessed day and am goin strong for next week so maybe its picked up again!!??:greenchainsaw:


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## ropensaddle (Mar 22, 2007)

treevet said:


> Ropeandsaddle you mentioned insurance and having no claims. I mentioned to Ins co the same thing a while back and his answer was "you re due for one then". Alot of complaints about bad competition thru this thread. Better than having real good competition. I don t want to sound aloof but I wouldn t want to have me for competition around here. I want to kick my comp s ass every day. Along time ago I decided to dedicate myself to learning. I studied every night and when Shigo came along it became much easier. I wrote down a list of all the dream equipment I wanted and year after year I have gotten it. It is all used but it is all paid for and not a liability but an asset (not overhead). It is constantly improved and sometimes replaced and upgraded.Work is not so hard anymore but sort of a choreography of equipment in and out. It works bcs I don t travel far and old stuff doesn t travel so well. I am in a wealthy uppermiddle class area and they all know me. The first thing being done right is being on this forum and looking for answers. Complaining and whining is not the answer. I live in a neighborhood w doctors and lawyers and pilots and I am just a me and another guy tree svc. The biggest key to my improvement was sobriety. Things have gotten drastically better every year for 17 plus years now.


 Congrads on sobriety I too have been sober thirteen years
and is the only way I would ever have made it through slow times and it means more to me than anything even my business.


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## treeslayer666 (Mar 22, 2007)

*Thank god for repeat & referals*

You guys should see the hacks around here. 2 or 3 years experiance with half page adds in the yellowpages, junk for equipment, minimum if any insurance, again NO EXPERIANCE, and they will cut your throat in a minute. These guys actually ask the cutomer what their cheapest price is!!! These guys have no ethics. They come and go around here but the new yellowpages that just came out says it all ANOTHER YEAR OF THE CUTTHROATS.
I see some so called "tree services" doing jobs I bid, half day jobs, takes them 2 days. Full long day jobs ( 10 hours ) takes them all week!!
I dont get it. They work 7 days a week to make what I do in a day.
Again thank god I can make a living off referals and repeat customer because if your bidding against these clowns in the yellowpages to survive, you will be out of buisness in no time.


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## Mtnman4ever (Mar 22, 2007)

I do know wher both sides are cokefr0m and itcanbe cutthroat 

I stated out clearoinf landandselling fire wood nevr got out of sellijgfire wood Istill do not as much but i have a enopugh to get a new toy eer saw ,camera , pay for month vacation ! 
I stated smnall too kon jobs no oneelsewanted got alot crappy cleintw s learned why no onewantedthjob crapy unralistc cleint or cleint not willingot pay a fair proce . yeah I got brunt i wenved they guys with buckettrucks untill i discoived climbing . I do notany mor3. and i figures Mhmm ican go where the bucket can't . 
I got betterstuff biggrsaws . and wnet on from ter Nowi am changing agqaon still cutting but not as much like Ralph . Afeter m injury I decided toslowdown . mayb do work with PNW timberfallers . they seem to have a intersting setup.

ten tere is he hack been brunt a fewtimesby th same guy . who underbids every one . but he go his . as he widid 1k to fall a 100 ft whtie pine with lean that was right over the neighbors house . i had a plan andevery thing they jerk client even set u a day well aii arriveto see this lid witha Sthil MS 460 with 20 inch bar tringot fall this tyng with putsome muchas a rope or wedge i asked what happend hesaid hey he isdoing it for 200! . WTF Iaskeis he insured? wel not he say he has lots os experince ? ok wht ewver i left mad a hell told heim what hecopuldod to himself . 
any eway abpout tow hours later i get a call abut takinga white p9ne that some kid dropend inot a house .aferigothe adressi said yeah for 5 k at minum.
Kid did 20k owrth of damge it isstill incourt . . and he is still cutting ! 

and i see this 


on craigslist 

http://nh.craigslist.org/bar/293046453.html


Ill adertise toclear lots and fall trees . but i also ask aprice and will not cut up someguys wood pile .10 years? m who knows 
but it is that easy .:angry2:


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