# How do you guys sharpen chains?



## memory (Mar 4, 2011)

I was wondering how do you sharpen your chainsaw chains? Do you sharpen them by hand or with a machine? Whenever we have ours sharpened, we take them to somebody we know that has a machine that sharpens them. His machine is similar to this: Carlton 510C 510B Chainsaw Chain Sharpener Oregon 510A - eBay (item 170606196851 end time Mar-22-11 10:41:00 PDT). It is not that same brand but same concept. 

We just had to buy a new bar and some new chains for our saw. I have noticed that the new chains are a whole lot sharper than the ones we have sharpened. Maybe the machine is not sharpening the chains just right.


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## offroadaudio (Mar 4, 2011)

I recently learned to sharpen with a file and it has sped up my work flow a lot.
It really works well to stop and sharpen every 30 minutes or so.
Go to the Sthil web site and find their video on sharpening - it will tell you everything you need to know.


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## hoosier daddy (Mar 4, 2011)

*Granberg filing jig*

I ordered a Granberg system last year and absolutely love it. I take a few extra chains with me when I cut. When the chain quits producing chips I change it out. When I get a few chains dull I grab a few cold ones and spend quality time with myself. It takes less than min to attach it to the bar and then 3 to 5 strokes with the file on each cutter... Dad has a bench grinder so i have access to both...I prefer the file system for quality of sharpness.

I think it's like $30 bucks and worth every penny. I think that Stihl has a system too.


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## Laird (Mar 4, 2011)

Every chain I have tried to sharpen by hand cuts a beautiful curve afterwords. The ones I sharpen with my 511A cuts fast and straight. I carry several spare chains with me and just swap them out when they get dull. I only have to kiss the teeth with the grinder to get them sharp again. Anyone who both sells and sharpens chains will take alot more off than I have to.:msp_mad:


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## fields_mj (Mar 4, 2011)

Laird said:


> Anyone who both sells and sharpens chains will take alot more off than I have to.:msp_mad:


 
That's the key IMHO. I use a file because it doesn't take off nearly as much material. I take a stroke or two off ever cutter every time I fill up the tank (I cut a lot of wood that has been skidded out to where I can get to it). It only takes me about 5 min, and it gives the saw a chance to cool off. One or two strokes is plenty to keep the chain sharp, and the chain lasts a LONG time that way. Grinding too much off with a machine is a good way to ruin the temper on the teeth. 

I also carry a cheap set of calipers in my tool box, and I use them every once in a while to check the lenght of all the cutters. I bring them back to within 0.005" of each other (if needed). I do that two or three times a season depending on how much I've been cutting. When I'm measuring the cutters, I'm normally using the Granberg filing jig that I have. When I'm in the field, I use the cheap STIHL file guide and that's it.


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## avalancher (Mar 4, 2011)

How do I sharpen my chains?It all depends on the conditions.And it should for you as well!
Grinders are fine, but if you want maximum life out of your chains, then you need to buckle down and learn to hand file.I dont care how careful you are with a grinder,its going to take more meat off than a file.However, there are times when a grinder is the tool for the job.

Learn to hand file.Its quicker to file a chain than to swap it out unless you are running a long bar.I can still file a 28 inch chain faster than I can swap it out.File often, dont wait until the dang thing isnt cutting anymore, the bar is smoking, and you are wearing your arms out pressing the thing through the wood.Keep the tip out of the dirt,watch for metal when you can, and dont lend the dang thing to a co worker.
Eventually, you are going to kiss the ground, hit some barb wire,or your wife will lose her mind and loan it to her sisters boyfriends best friend who lives in a rock pile,and you will be faced with a rocked out chain.Good time to turn to the grinder.

First off, get rid of the wife.If you are scared of her rolling pin, wait until she goes to sleep.No point in sharpening your chain just to have her loan the thing back out. For a small fee several freight companies will pick up a box even if its kicking and screaming.PM me if you need their contact number.

The idea with a grinder is to restore a chain back to its profile,so take it easy.Remove no more metal than necessary,and take your time.blue teeth are a great way to spruce up your saw,but they dont cut very well for very long.Let the chain cool a second or two between swipes if you need to.Any time you grind a chain, you also need to look at your rakers.Chances are, you will need to lower them if you want any production out of them.Get a gauge, dont just count on the "three swipes per raker" method because a file does not always take the same amount per file.Rakers that are set an uneven depth will cause the chain to surge in the wood, and make for a very jerky cut.Again, precision is what you should strive for.Speed will come later as you learn.

Any questions?


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## RPrice (Mar 4, 2011)

Like fields_mj, I file the cutters after each tankful, usually only one or two strokes, this is just with a file/handle, no guide or holder. When I get home, and do my daily saw maintenance, I use a file holder, and usually only two to three strokes/cutter. After every 4 - 5 times I check the depth gauges. I used to use File Guide contraptions, but after enough practice, sharpening by "hand" now works great for me.

This way I'm always touching up a sharp chain, instead of sharpening a dull one.


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## showrguy (Mar 4, 2011)

check your raker height on the chains you've had ground from the dealer...

i asked a local dealer about how/what he sets the rakers at ??
he just looked at me and said " we don't do rakers, if they want to they can do that themselves"............

i go, "huh, you give em back a chain with sharp teeth that can't even reach the wood ??"
he says, "yep"..
still scratchin my head over that one...


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## Hedgerow (Mar 4, 2011)

Avalancher? Your wife must be a saint!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
To the OP? Yes, it's hard to improve on OEM chains. I use a hand file only, but only because I haven't shelled out the money for a grinder. I have, however gotten out the micrometer and measured teeth to get them back to as identical as possible after a horrible event... I.E. Rock, Bucket of tractor, Fence, BIL's saw....... Just be as precise as possible... That goes for the rakers too...


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## STLfirewood (Mar 4, 2011)

showrguy said:


> check your raker height on the chains you've had ground from the dealer...
> 
> i asked a local dealer about how/what he sets the rakers at ??
> he just looked at me and said " we don't do rakers, if they want to they can do that themselves"............
> ...



That's a time over money thing. I'm sure he would do it right idf the customer would pay for it. But at $5 to sharpen I bet most dealer hope nobody ever brings a chain in.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 4, 2011)

STLfirewood said:


> That's a time over money thing. I'm sure he would do it right idf the customer would pay for it. But at $5 to sharpen I bet most dealer hope nobody ever brings a chain in.


 
I always assumed it was a liability thing...:msp_blink:


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## STLfirewood (Mar 4, 2011)

I've often wondered if it's worth sharpening a chain. Would you be better off just getting a new chain everytime youj need one. If you buy a spool of chain and make your own you have around $11 in a 16" chain. If I don't hit anything I can easily cut 3-4 cords with a chain before it gets to dull. I have thought about just cutting until a chain is dull then swappiong a new one. Once you have 5 dull ones sell them on e-bay. I bet they would average $7-8 a piece. If that is the case it only costs you about $1 a cord to have a new chain everytime you cut. Now if you rock one it will cost you a couple dollars more. Has anyone else thought about doing this?

Scott


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## Hedgerow (Mar 4, 2011)

YES!!! But it seemed wasteful...:msp_unsure:


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## RPrice (Mar 4, 2011)

STLfirewood said:


> I've often wondered if it's worth sharpening a chain. Would you be better off just getting a new chain everytime youj need one. If you buy a spool of chain and make your own you have around $11 in a 16" chain. If I don't hit anything I can easily cut 3-4 cords with a chain before it gets to dull. I have thought about just cutting until a chain is dull then swappiong a new one. Once you have 5 dull ones sell them on e-bay. I bet they would average $7-8 a piece. If that is the case it only costs you about $1 a cord to have a new chain everytime you cut. Now if you rock one it will cost you a couple dollars more. Has anyone else thought about doing this?
> 
> Scott


 
It wouldn't work for me. I cut Utah Juniper for firewood, and the bark is very shaggy and collects windblown dirt. It dulls chains quick!!


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## pickwood (Mar 4, 2011)

Most of the time I use a file,and dont worry about the rakers. When chain is rocked- I'll use a chain grinder and then follow up with a file- a grinder will never match a file when it comes to really sharp chains and this has worked for 35 years.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 4, 2011)

Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 4, 2011)

pickwood said:


> Most of the time I use a file,and dont worry about the rakers. When chain is rocked- I'll use a chain grinder and then follow up with a file- a grinder will never match a file when it comes to really sharp chains and this has worked for 35 years.


If I sharpen a chain and it doesn't want to self feed very well, then I will take 1 swipe with a flat file on the rakers. 
Much less work to cut if you don't have to push on the saw.


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## tdb (Mar 4, 2011)

*Granberg*

I hand filed for years , then I found the granberg file system , it was a dream come true. it files the same all the time , I give it 3 stroaks and I move on, I have 2 Granbergs , 1 for each side.

TEDMI


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## mercer_me (Mar 4, 2011)

Them grinders will burn your chain. You can't beat a rat tail file to sharpen the teeth and a flat file to take down the rakers.


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## RPrice (Mar 4, 2011)

tdb said:


> I hand filed for years , then I found the granberg file system , it was a dream come true. it files the same all the time , I give it 3 stroaks and I move on, I have 2 Granbergs , 1 for each side.
> 
> TEDMI


 
Yep, I used one of those in the "old days".


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## fields_mj (Mar 4, 2011)

STLfirewood said:


> I've often wondered if it's worth sharpening a chain. Would you be better off just getting a new chain everytime youj need one. If you buy a spool of chain and make your own you have around $11 in a 16" chain. If I don't hit anything I can easily cut 3-4 cords with a chain before it gets to dull. I have thought about just cutting until a chain is dull then swappiong a new one. Once you have 5 dull ones sell them on e-bay. I bet they would average $7-8 a piece. If that is the case it only costs you about $1 a cord to have a new chain everytime you cut. Now if you rock one it will cost you a couple dollars more. Has anyone else thought about doing this?
> 
> Scott



A brand new chain doesn't last that long for me. I cut Oak, Hickory, Locust, and some Ash. Even in perfectly clean wood with a brand new chain, after the 3rd tank, it really needs touched up, and after a 4th tank, it's just plain dull. If you're cutting 3 cords with out sharpening, you're cutting some pretty soft wood, AND you are working at it a lot more than you need to. 

Personally, I don't have any need for a grinder. The Granberg jig allows me to file a rocked out chain back into shape. Sure, it takes me 20 min or so to file a really messed up chain, but compaired to the price of a decent grinder, and considering that I only do it to each chain once a year, the idea of a grinder just seems like a complete waste of my $$. At that point, I'd rather either pay to have them sharpened once a year, or toss the chain and replace it. 

As far as the rakers go, I check them about once a year and they rarely need anything done to them.


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## memory (Mar 4, 2011)

I may look into that Granberg system. What kind of stores would carry them? Would TSC have them, what about Harbor Freight? I looked at them on ebay and noticed you have to buy the file seperate. How do you find out what file size you need?


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## CTYank (Mar 4, 2011)

memory said:


> I may look into that Granberg system. What kind of stores would carry them? Would TSC have them, what about Harbor Freight? I looked at them on ebay and noticed you have to buy the file seperate. How do you find out what file size you need?


 
It's called "File-n-Joint" and you can get one from Bailey's, for one. I'll bet Granberg can list vendors, at least.

Been using the same one for over 30 yrs. Simplest way I've found to keep nice consistent razors, and remove minimal metal. Makes life easier for bar, engine, etc. too, of course.

For .050" gauge 3/8" -> 7/32" round file, for low-prof .050" gauge 3/8" or 1/4" -> 5/32" round file. I got some "laser" files long back, and they seem to last forever in this guide. (Do NOT use rat-tail file.)

One poster mentioned having (2) of these guides, one for each side of cutters. Totally unnecessary- takes a few sec to flip the guide from side to side.


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## memory (Mar 4, 2011)

Can you get the files at any hardware store or do they need to be a certain kind?


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## RPrice (Mar 4, 2011)

memory said:


> Can you get the files at any hardware store or do they need to be a certain kind?


 

They are round files specifically made for chain saw cutters, see post above yours. You DO NOT use "rat tail files"

Any Chain Saw supply will have the correct files for the pitch of your chain. Take your saw to the dealer and get the right ones. You'll need a flat file for the "rakers" (depth gauges).


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## memory (Mar 4, 2011)

Can you give me an example of a rat tale file and a chain file? According to the box the chain came in, I need a 3/16 file. 

Would this be what I need?
Bailey's - Husqvarna 3/16" Single Cut Round Files - 2 Pack

Would this work as well?
Chainsaw Files 3/16" - .325" Pitch Chain (6 pack) - eBay (item 250780957244 end time Mar-29-11 18:16:53 PDT)

Does the brand really matter that much?


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## RPrice (Mar 4, 2011)

memory said:


> Can you give me an example of a rat tale file and a chain file? According to the box the chain came in, I need a 3/16 file.
> 
> Would this be what I need?
> Bailey's - Husqvarna 3/16" Single Cut Round Files - 2 Pack
> ...


 
Yes, either would work if the pitch of the chain is .325, they are round files, not rat tail files. I don't think the brand matters that much.


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## pacman (Mar 4, 2011)

grandpatractor said:


> Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
> pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


 
I have seen this before. Tell more about it please. Thanks M P


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## RPrice (Mar 4, 2011)

Rat tail files taper along their length, just like a rat's tail! You don't want to use this for chain saw cutters, you need a round file.


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## jackstock394 (Mar 4, 2011)

*lots of good advice in the above post*



avalancher said:


> How do I sharpen my chains?It all depends on the conditions.And it should for you as well!
> Grinders are fine, but if you want maximum life out of your chains, then you need to buckle down and learn to hand file.I dont care how careful you are with a grinder,its going to take more meat off than a file.However, there are times when a grinder is the tool for the job.
> 
> Learn to hand file.Its quicker to file a chain than to swap it out unless you are running a long bar.I can still file a 28 inch chain faster than I can swap it out.File often, dont wait until the dang thing isnt cutting anymore, the bar is smoking, and you are wearing your arms out pressing the thing through the wood.Keep the tip out of the dirt,watch for metal when you can, and dont lend the dang thing to a co worker.
> ...


The above info is great.Drill into your head "DO NOT RUN A CHAIN TO THE POINT WHERE IT WILL NOT CUT" i did just that the first 3 seasons i cut firewood. Lots of sore muscles and chains trashed to the point of only a pro quality grinder is gonna staighten it out.find an old timer who cut timber lots of years, have them teach you to hand file. It will amaze you what you can learn ,and it will become alot easier to get the firewood in without destroying your body.


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## TMFARM 2009 (Mar 4, 2011)

well i had some poulan chains left over, so i took rakers almost off. this was a trick i learned a while back, i wouldn't run oregon - carlisle or a good stihl chain this way. poulan s chains dull quickly (softer metal). so if you drop rakers drastically it will cut longer per sharpening.
i file sharpen, i have a grinder but it takes me too long per chain. i haven't got the hang of it, and my time is at a real premium now days. i can hand file one razor sharp in minutes it will last usually four tank fulls or so. i dont use guide tools i have tried a few didn't like them. so i kept practicing freehand.


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## Sagetown (Mar 4, 2011)

This method is probably the best teacher a chain filer can have. It gives you precision cuts on the Cutter teeth. With experience your eyes begin to pick up on the Rakers height in comparison with the Cutters. Using a Depth Gauge and flat file also helps. 

But after getting adjusted to the electric Disc grinders, once set-up and ruining a few old worn out chains ~ they're pretty much a no-brainer (that's what I like).

Hey; TMFARM ~ how in the world do you get 4 tanks to a sharpening?? Wish I could. I'm cutting mostly elm and red oak, so that's part of my problem. I've filed a few chains rakers close to 0.30" and they'll sure take a bite out of those logs, but I don't know about going any deeper. lol........:msp_biggrin:


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## TMFARM 2009 (Mar 4, 2011)

if you lay a gauge on the bar and chain it shows two lines one is i believe 30 deg. the other is 25 deg. i run 25 deg. .325 50 gauge chain.lpx to be exact. but rakers are set at 25 not 30. now on the poulan chains i take the ramps clear off.safety chains i believe... still has a small raker too but i drop them a little more, you literally have to hold it up off the wood at first it bites deep and hard.i cut hedge oak walnut elm maple what ever i get in a fence row.heck even metal posts some times...lol 
i wouldn't get too radical if you dont cut a lot. it can and will hurt you quick....i have had some ground by a dealer here but only if they are torn up real badly.he evens them out pretty nicely...it seems to me the straighter you file the edge across the quicker it dulls.. but thats just me.i have done this for a long time. it works for me.
the chains are so sharp you want to wear gloves when messing with them, or you get cut. thats when i know the chains sharp....i usually sharpen setting at the table. i clamp on a portable vise lock down the saw and file while watching tv. i will do 6 chains at a time usually. bag them three to a bag zip lock sandwich bags and label them for size. ( due to having three sizes in the box) i am looking at getting the power sharp for one of my cs370's to use and see if its worth it.
if it can hold up to cutting fence rows it will pay off for me.
i dont sharpen while out in the field i change out chains while fueling saves time for me.for me time is money and daylight....if i grab a chain and it doenst cut right i change it out right then. i dont fight it. i tag it with black tape and re bag it. sharpen it again later.hardest part is keeping each side equal on the teeth so it doesn't cut crooked in big logs. i hope this helps


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 5, 2011)

TMFARM 2009 said:


> well i had some poulan chains left over, so i took rakers almost off. this was a trick i learned a while back, i wouldn't run oregon - carlisle or a good stihl chain this way. poulan s chains dull quickly (softer metal). so if you drop rakers drastically it will cut longer per sharpening.


 
Grinding the rakers down low will greatly increase the chances of bad kickback and can also put a lot more strain on the clutch, damaging it in some cases


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## Sagetown (Mar 5, 2011)

I take extra chains to the woods also, and they are extreemly sharp, but there is no way mine can hold an edge, on oak and especially hedge, through 4 tanks of fuel. Two tanks and I'm ready to change out the chain . I could probably stretch it some, but I don't like my saws screaming and spitting sawdust. I want them making chainsaw music and throwing chips.:msp_biggrin:


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## EXCALIBER (Mar 5, 2011)

avalancher said:


> Learn to hand file.Its quicker to file a chain than to swap it out unless you are running a long bar.I can still file a 28 inch chain faster than I can swap it out.


 
I would love to see a video of anyone sharpening that fast! Even if you run a full skip and only two or three strokes of the file, its gonna take a few minutes at least. I can take the two bar nuts off, clean the Bar groove, and flip the bar over, install new chain in under a minute or so. I usually just carry five or six chains with me, or as many as are needed to cut all day without sharpening, then file the chains at home, watching tv, drinking a cold one. I find I end up doing a better job in a more controlled environment, and when I am not in a huge hurry to get back to cutting.

Like Avalancher said, there are times to use a grinder. The rule of thumb is to use grinder after a rocked chain, or when your hand grinding gets uneven, just to get length or angle back on track to factory specs. Usually every 6 to 10 sharpenings tough it with the grinder. I will warn many people NOT to take your chain to the dealer or anyone else (unless you know they will do a top job) as I have found they tend to cut way too much off your chain, and overheat it.


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## atvdave (Mar 5, 2011)

memory said:


> I was wondering how do you sharpen your chainsaw chains? Do you sharpen them by hand or with a machine? Whenever we have ours sharpened, we take them to somebody we know that has a machine that sharpens them. His machine is similar to this: Carlton 510C 510B Chainsaw Chain Sharpener Oregon 510A - eBay (item 170606196851 end time Mar-22-11 10:41:00 PDT). It is not that same brand but same concept.
> 
> We just had to buy a new bar and some new chains for our saw. I have noticed that the new chains are a whole lot sharper than the ones we have sharpened. Maybe the machine is not sharpening the chains just right.



I just got that grinder from Edge & Engine. The Carlton 510C. (it's $169 if you buy from his web sight, Oregon [ORE 510C] Carlton Bench Chain Grinder (Same as Oregon 510A, Carlton 510B) - $169.00 ).

There is a learning curve for sharping a chain on a grinder. It takes time, and you don't want to try to grind the chain too fast. 

In the field I to touch-up work with a hand file, but if it gets too far gone I use the grinder.


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## dingeryote (Mar 5, 2011)

EXCALIBER said:


> I would love to see a video of anyone sharpening that fast! Even if you run a full skip and only two or three strokes of the file, its gonna take a few minutes at least. I can take the two bar nuts off, clean the Bar groove, and flip the bar over, install new chain in under a minute or so. I usually just carry five or six chains with me, or as many as are needed to cut all day without sharpening, then file the chains at home, watching tv, drinking a cold one. I find I end up doing a better job in a more controlled environment, and when I am not in a huge hurry to get back to cutting.
> 
> Like Avalancher said, there are times to use a grinder. The rule of thumb is to use grinder after a rocked chain, or when your hand grinding gets uneven, just to get length or angle back on track to factory specs. Usually every 6 to 10 sharpenings tough it with the grinder. I will warn many people NOT to take your chain to the dealer or anyone else (unless you know they will do a top job) as I have found they tend to cut way too much off your chain, and overheat it.


 

Avalancher is missing three fingers, wears an eye patch, and has a sponsorship from Red Bull.

He files with the chain moving at a high idle, using a file in each hand, to save time..

SaveEdge is consulting with Avalancher on the design of the worlds first water cooled files.

He ain't blazing fast, you're just NASCAR pit crew fast swapping a chain.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## EXCALIBER (Mar 5, 2011)

dingeryote said:


> Avalancher is missing three fingers, wears an eye patch, and has a sponsorship from Red Bull.
> 
> He files with the chain moving at a high idle, using a file in each hand, to save time..
> 
> ...


 
LMAO now that is some funny stuff:msp_lol:


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## GeeVee (Mar 5, 2011)

I use a Dremel tool and only have one spare chain for each saw at this point.

I had a truck stolen in 2008 and lost eight (yellow) Stihl chains, two pair of chaps, two hearing protection w/radio, a collection of gloves, Two hard hats, pruning saws and shears, and a rechargeable Dremel- which I never bothered with. . 

At the time I would dull them all and take them to a friend in the rental business and he'd sharpen them all over a six pack of beer with his Oregon Grinder. 

Now I have to find other reasons to take beer to his place. 

Chains are cheap. 

I had always done them myself in my former business life, and when I sold and got out of the Poverty class- I amassed a significant Stihl collection and needed a reason to hang with my friend. I suplussed everything and settled on just three saws, and it significantly reduced my shelf inventory of parts and supplies. 

Using the Dremel is very fast- on the saw in the field. I grind often, and am unconcerned about how small the teeth get. As long as they are all there, all the same "length", and produce chips, the chain will stay on the saw. 

I do NOT make saw dust. 

I do flip the bar over about every three days of cutting.

Often here I hear argument about chains and sharpening, like they cost a ton of money, kind of like the cost of Gas/oil and fuel consumption....

Pshaw. Tools don't cost- they pay.

Whichever way you choose, just sharpen more often than you think you need. Me? I don't do anything by hand I can get done with power. The Dremel means I don't have to have a million chains or work on them at home.


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## michael j (Mar 5, 2011)

I usually file sharpen my chains. Since my left isn't a strong as my right I normally make 3 or 4 strokes with my left and 2 with the right, which kinda keeps 'em a little more even. 

When they get too far outta whack I put 'em on the grinder. I clamp a regulated air line to my stand and blow it on the tooth to keep it cool, makes alot of difference. 

Mike


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## flushcut (Mar 5, 2011)

grandpatractor said:


> Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
> pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


 
I use those as well. When NT was going to stop selling Husky stuff I bought their entire inventory at a buck sixty per. I use a grinder for rocked chains and a file for touch up.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 5, 2011)

grandpatractor said:


> Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
> pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


 


pacman said:


> I have seen this before. Tell more about it please. Thanks M P


 
This one sets right on the chain and I think it is quicker and just as accurate (with practice) as the Granberg. It grabs right onto the chain and keeps the file at the right depth. With the granberg the chain will rock a bit with a worn bar groove or the chain will ride up abit and your depth isn't as accurate. 
It doesn't take long to use one of these. Wish I had a video to show. 
I may have to work on that.


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## wigglesworth (Mar 5, 2011)

grandpatractor said:


> Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
> pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


 


pacman said:


> I have seen this before. Tell more about it please. Thanks M P


 
I used to flame people for using a filing guide, as at the time, I hadn't found one that didnt take 3 days to setup and use (granberg) or one that would cut as fast as my free-handed chains. Then I got one of these cheapy looking roller guides from the local home store. And well, they work, there fast, and admittedly keep the angles better than my free-hand filing, and so simple, that my 4 year old could do it. They also will fit in your pocket, unlike others (grandberg). I have a Grandberg, and it just sit's in the toolbox, unused. Same sad story for my grinder. IMHO, these are the Husky Roller Guide is the BEST filing guide out there. Period.


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## zogger (Mar 5, 2011)

*rakers?*



tdb said:


> I hand filed for years , then I found the granberg file system , it was a dream come true. it files the same all the time , I give it 3 stroaks and I move on, I have 2 Granbergs , 1 for each side.
> 
> TEDMI
> 
> --I see it does the cutters, but does that jig also hold a flat file for the rakers?


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## TonyK (Mar 5, 2011)

I have one of these for rocked chain but use a file in the woods.




I got it cheap through Amazon and it looks cool on the bench but I really don't use it all that much.

View attachment 174899


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 5, 2011)

*Oregon 511A*

Here's a pic with the bench vise mount I made for it:






I could also wall mount it:











This machine is very well made and really works. You can pick one up on e-bay for less than $200 these days. I believe the new models are close to $400.

A friend gave me a Harbor Freight grinding machine for nothing. I use it for lowering the rakers and that's about all. It's lousy engineering compared to the Italian-made Oregon. I found the learning curve for using it rather short and the results excellent. I have saved enough chains that loggers have thrown away to pay for the machine several times over. It's quiet, bulb lit, and a pleasure to use.


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## Whitespider (Mar 5, 2011)

I just file mine


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## TreePointer (Mar 5, 2011)

I secure my saw in a heavy bench vise and hand file with a filing guide. No complaints here.

If I had dozens of chains and a business depended on them, I'd probably get a nice electric chain grinder to save some time.


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## NH Hunter (Mar 5, 2011)

I can't use a file without my saw making a nice curved cut. That being the case, i used to use the dremel attachment which worked okay. I also brought them to my local shop to have them sharped by them to the tune of $7 each. Last spring I bought the Northern Tool grinder and couldn't be happier. Took me about 15/20 minutes to set it up and it works great. It takes me a couple minutes a chain and it's always sharp and consistent.


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## cuttingintime (Mar 5, 2011)

Hand file mine, takes me a little long than some from the sound of things.


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 5, 2011)

*Northern Tool = Oregon*



NH Hunter said:


> I can't use a file without my saw making a nice curved cut. That being the case, i used to use the dremel attachment which worked okay. I also brought them to my local shop to have them sharped by them to the tune of $7 each. Last spring I bought the Northern Tool grinder and couldn't be happier. Took me about 15/20 minutes to set it up and it works great. It takes me a couple minutes a chain and it's always sharp and consistent.


+1. Similar history for me. Started out file sharpening, moved to a cylinder grinder (Granberg), gave up on that after 10 years, and bought the Oregon (similar to Northern Tool's disk grinder).

Now I'm really satisfied. 

Hope you liked my bench mount. It works. (But, you need a 12v grinder or file at the jobsite if you forgot to bring two chains. I never do forget that.)


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## Dalmatian90 (Mar 5, 2011)

I learned / taught myself how to hand file this year...so far it's been working out well. Little bit more patience then when I was late teens / early 20s and used to cut curves when I tried :hmm3grin2orange: Watched some YouTube videos and read some stuff I found here and on Google.

I probably still push it one or two gas tanks too far before I sharpen.

Timed myself this morning at 10 minutes.


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## Sagetown (Mar 5, 2011)

My Dad and Grandpa were loggers back in the mid 30's. I don't know what they used back then, but Dad taught me to use a file long before I ever heard of a Shop doing it commercially. Then last year I had a tempory case of 'Tennis Elbow'. I could to most anything but use a file. That's when I purchased a Northern Grinder and I sure like it.:msp_biggrin::hmm3grin2orange:


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## banshee67 (Mar 5, 2011)

a file, pfred guide, $8 stump vise


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## mattellis2 (Mar 6, 2011)

i use both the grinder and hand filing. as other have said the grinder keeps everything consistent, and the file puts the edge the cutters.

-matt


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## HighGuy (Mar 6, 2011)

banshee67 said:


> a file, pfred guide, $8 stump vise



Abolutely! 
-Oregon 12v power grinder is in the truck for severe damage, only. 
-I use a cheap Granberg type system, for recooping/aligning, when at home on the deck. (It is straighter than I THINK I am!)

-But when it just comes down to cutting on the job and touching up, 99% of the time, I am hand filing. ( round file, and the Pferd round & flat file Combo to keep the humps right.) You do ANYTHING long enough and you learn the right/best techniques and you get skilled at it. 
- Lots of devices work. It comes down to your time to money factor. Losing time costs= something with less set up? - Time doesn't cost you much=more setup?
Either way, More practice/use= less time as you get better at that device.

Which is best? "The one YOU are best at! Can afford. While keeping the chain cutting properly, in the time you allow.", seems like a good answer.
:msp_smile: "4 Methods+ is just consumerism!" or a pro shop!:msp_laugh:
IMHO


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## tdb (Mar 6, 2011)

*roller*



grandpatractor said:


> Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
> pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


 
where can a guy fined these , and how do you know which one for your saw, would like to try them .

TEDMI


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## grandpatractor (Mar 6, 2011)

tdb said:


> where can a guy fined these , and how do you know which one for your saw, would like to try them .
> 
> TEDMI


 
Most husky or Jred dealers have them. They are sized for 3/8 or 325. can get them for 3/8 lopro also.


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## HighGuy (Mar 6, 2011)

grandpatractor said:


> Grab a roller file guide for 10 bucks or so from your Husky-jred dealer.
> pretty soon you'll be sharpening chains that will be faster than new.


 
BAILEY'S on-line, if you order from them already. $9-10 ... They state which chain, if questions.

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=HVA+505+24+35+01&catID=


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## mdavlee (Mar 6, 2011)

I free hand round and use a grinder for square most of the time. I do free hand some square just to keep in practice.


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## RPrice (Mar 6, 2011)

HighGuy said:


> Abolutely!
> -Oregon 12v power grinder is in the truck for severe damage, only.
> -I use a cheap Granberg type system, for recooping/aligning, when at home on the deck. (It is straighter than I THINK I am!)
> 
> ...


 
+1, Amen!! The above pretty much sums it up IMO!


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## indiansprings (Mar 6, 2011)

I literally have to sharpen chains everyday, every other day at the max, 99% of the time I sharpen with the chain on and do it with hand filing. I put the saw in a good vice with one of the magnify glass lamps over the chain so it is extremely well lit up and I can see the file details of the tooth. I file by eye, no guides. 
If one of the guys hits wire, rocks one out bad, it goes on the oregon grinder to get it back into shape quickly and then if in the mood touch it up by hand.
Most people I see or teach to sharpen think it takes a heavy hand and a lot of material removal, with a good sharp file it doesn't take much pressure at all to get a chain sharp. I used to grind quite a bit when I first bought the grinder, but prefer a good hand filing to a grind. The key is keeping them touched up during cutting or switching out chains, don't cut with them until they are rounded off knubs as many people do. Chain is a cheap investment in the life of a saw.


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## fields_mj (Mar 6, 2011)

I too would love to see a video of the roller guide in use. I have one for .375 chain, but I don't use any .375 chain so I haven't been able to try it out. Maybe I should just look at TSC and see if they still have them for the .325 and give it a whirl. The only reason that I end up using a guide is to help me keep the file at the correct depth. It doesn't add any time to sharpening, so I figure I'm better off using it. I did complete free hand for about a year and a half. Got pretty good at it, but I did notice that the depth of the file was a little more inconsistent than I liked. Thus the guide. 

I too have found that I can touch up a chain about as fast as I can swap one out, mostly because of the cleaning that's needed when I pull the chain off. That, and I always have a hard time getting the chain into the rim sprocket for some reason. I love how functional they are, but they do give me a little grief when putting the chain back on. I'd say it takes me about 5 min to do either one if I take my time and don't start dropping stuff. I've never figured out how a bar nut can fit into so many little crevices, and still manage to land and stay on the top of my hitch under the truck....


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## artbaldoni (Mar 6, 2011)

Bought a grinder many years ago. Used it all the time. Loaned it to my brother and was forced to sharpen by hand for a while. Bought the cheap Oregon guide and never went back. Haven't used the grinder for the last 10 years. My brother still has it and uses it and thats ok because to me it takes way too much time and I always ground off too much tooth. If I really rock one, which is almost never, I'll just swap it out and take the time to straighten it by hand on the bar in the shop when I have he time. I do like the idea of the lighted magnifier for on the bench. Full skip also speeds up the sharpening process...:msp_wink:


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 6, 2011)

artbaldoni said:


> Bought a grinder many years ago. Used it all the time. Loaned it to my brother and was forced to sharpen by hand for a while. Bought the cheap Oregon guide and never went back. Haven't used the grinder for the last 10 years. My brother still has it and uses it and thats ok because to me *it takes way too much time and I always ground off too much tooth.* If I really rock one, which is almost never, I'll just swap it out and take the time to straighten it by hand on the bar in the shop when I have he time. I do like the idea of the lighted magnifier for on the bench. Full skip also speeds up the sharpening process...:msp_wink:


Hmmm... Good grinders only take of as much tooth as you let them take off.

I think your brother got a bargain.


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## Sagetown (Mar 6, 2011)

*indiansprings* mentioned using a magnifying glass.... Note my post #32' pic ~ see that magnifying lighted visor behind the Chain Bar ~ Fun 



> Wood Doctor ~ Hmmm... Good grinders only take of as much tooth as you let them take off.



Yep; the little adjustor jig moves the chain precisely where you want it..


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## J.W Younger (Mar 6, 2011)

I have a grinder and if theres anyone who hates using it more than Thall its me.When I sharpen a chain for someone else it gets ground tho cause I hate round filing even more than grinding.
Most people don't but I enjoy square filing.


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## David (saltas) (Mar 6, 2011)

lite touch of the file in the field,
I take four chains for the main bar, 2 chains for the spare, shorter bar.

use grinder on chains when I get home, but only a light touch ie the smallest amount to put a new face on the cutter, only a finger or two of pressure on the grinders handle


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## Sagetown (Mar 6, 2011)

J.W Younger said:


> I have a grinder and if theres anyone who hates using it more than Thall its me*.When I sharpen a chain for someone else it gets ground* tho cause I hate round filing even more than grinding.
> Most people don't but I enjoy square filing.


 
Is that because by the time they bring it to you it's in terrible condition ? That's been my experience anyways.

Square Filing ? I don't know anyone that has done it. Isn't that mainly for the milling chains ?


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## J.W Younger (Mar 6, 2011)

Sagetown said:


> Is that because by the time they bring it to you it's in terrible condition ? That's been my experience anyways.
> 
> Square Filing ? I don't know anyone that has done it. Isn't that mainly for the milling chains ?


Yes on the phubar chain they bring me and no square is for cross cutting only.


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 7, 2011)

*Extending Chain Life*

Sometimes you can extend the life of a chain by not grind sharpening a few teeth that are really rocked hard. All but three or four may be in far better shape that a few sour ones. Leave the sour ones alone and sharpen the rest the same size.

Eventually, you will get to the sour ones two or three sharpenings later, and then all will be the same size thereafter. In between, the cutting may be a little slower, but you may hardly notice that, especially on longer chains with 70 cutters or more.

In short, don't let the tail wag the dog.


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## wigglesworth (Mar 7, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> I too would love to see a video of the roller guide in use.


 
Ill try to make a vid today. 

All I run is RSC and LGX and it works flawlessly on both.

Again, I was an avid hater of all sharpening jigs, guides and what-not. So much so, I flamed guys for using them, and not learning to hand file, but this thing works, and works well.


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## fields_mj (Mar 7, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> Sometimes you can extend the life of a chain by not grind sharpening a few teeth that are really rocked hard. All but three or four may be in far better shape that a few sour ones. Leave the sour ones alone and sharpen the rest the same size.
> 
> Eventually, you will get to the sour ones two or three sharpenings later, and then all will be the same size thereafter. In between, the cutting may be a little slower, but you may hardly notice that, especially on longer chains with 70 cutters or more.
> 
> In short, don't let the tail wag the dog.


 
I do something like this. When I hit something, it generally only messes up one or two teeth. In that case, I go a head and sharpen them, but on subsequent sharpenings I may only take one light stroke with the file when I'm taking two light strokes on the others. Eventually the rest of the chain catches up. So long as it's only one or two teeth, I can't tell much of a difference. More than that, and the chain gets set aside until I can get to it to work on it.


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## zogger (Mar 7, 2011)

*Please do!*



wigglesworth said:


> Ill try to make a vid today.
> 
> All I run is RSC and LGX and it works flawlessly on both.
> 
> Again, I was an avid hater of all sharpening jigs, guides and what-not. So much so, I flamed guys for using them, and not learning to hand file, but this thing works, and works well.



--I'd like to see how they work! domo arigato


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## J.W Younger (Mar 7, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> Sometimes you can extend the life of a chain by not grind sharpening a few teeth that are really rocked hard. All but three or four may be in far better shape that a few sour ones. Leave the sour ones alone and sharpen the rest the same size.
> 
> Eventually, you will get to the sour ones two or three sharpenings later, and then all will be the same size thereafter. In between, the cutting may be a little slower, but you may hardly notice that, especially on longer chains with 70 cutters or more.
> 
> In short, don't let the tail wag the dog.


70 cutters or more?damn thats one long bar!LOL,guess I just got the short bar syndrome,36 cutters on a 20"seems like a bunch to me.


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## mdavlee (Mar 7, 2011)

I've got a 130 dl chain that's full comp. I don't know how many cutters is on it but it's a lot to grind.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 7, 2011)

Well I finally went out and did it this weekend... Got my micrometer out and mic'd every cutter on the basket case 24" chain that's been bugging me. Took an hour and a half to fix right, but she's cutting beautiful, and gives the 372 all it wants. Not sayin it's the right way to do it... just sayin sometimes I gotta start from perfection and get worse...:msp_biggrin:


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## memory (Mar 7, 2011)

After looking at some granbergs on ebay, I noticed there are a few different models. Is there any difference in the models? 

This is the one I am looking at.
New Granberg G-109 File-N-Guide Chain Saw Filing Jig - eBay (item 230593563862 end time Apr-03-11 21:09:52 PDT)

I went to Granbergs website and they only have one model listed which is the g106b. The one above is a g-109.

The way it sounds, hand filing is the way to go. I am going to try to learn how to do some hand filing. If I were to look at electric grinders, which would be a good brand? I have been looking at some on ebay and wow, some are going for 3 or 400 dollars. I really wouldn't want to spend that much. I also seen some that costs $55, it is the one that Northern Tool carries. I assume those would be junk. 

Thanks for all the help.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 7, 2011)

memory said:


> After looking at some granbergs on ebay, I noticed there are a few different models. Is there any difference in the models?
> 
> This is the one I am looking at.
> New Granberg G-109 File-N-Guide Chain Saw Filing Jig - eBay (item 230593563862 end time Apr-03-11 21:09:52 PDT)
> ...


 
Looks like all the components are there. The one I got says file-n-joint. But it's a lot older too...


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## tdb (Mar 7, 2011)

*109*



memory said:


> After looking at some granbergs on ebay, I noticed there are a few different models. Is there any difference in the models?
> 
> This is the one I am looking at.
> New Granberg G-109 File-N-Guide Chain Saw Filing Jig - eBay (item 230593563862 end time Apr-03-11 21:09:52 PDT)
> ...


 
the 109 is the older model, the 106 is the current one .


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## wigglesworth (Mar 7, 2011)

Here ya go guys. I have some cutter pics as well, but me and the laptop are arguing about it. 

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MCF4e8FZYAo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## zogger (Mar 7, 2011)

*Thanks!*

Now I see how they attach and work! What does that piece that sticks out the other side do? Just part of keeping it hooked in and aligned, or what? And the guide itself, can you do different pitch and different sized cutters?


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## fields_mj (Mar 7, 2011)

Ditto!!! I'm certainly going to have to pick one of those up for both my .325 and .404 chain! At $10 each, it would be worth it just to give it a try.


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## Sagetown (Mar 7, 2011)

memory said:


> After looking at some granbergs on ebay, I noticed there are a few different models. Is there any difference in the models?
> 
> This is the one I am looking at.
> New Granberg G-109 File-N-Guide Chain Saw Filing Jig - eBay (item 230593563862 end time Apr-03-11 21:09:52 PDT)
> ...



I recently got the Northern Tool Model #193020. I'm very pleased with it. 
Not knowing anything about these disc grinders, it was a bugger to put together. Instructions expect you to know a little. These go on sale from time to time.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 7, 2011)

zogger said:


> Now I see how they attach and work! What does that piece that sticks out the other side do? Just part of keeping it hooked in and aligned, or what? And the guide itself, can you do different pitch and different sized cutters?


 
The other plate is used by setting it over the rakers to check them.


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## HEAVY FUEL (Mar 7, 2011)

You can see 2 arrows inside make sure the are pointing towards the nose of the bar.


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## HEAVY FUEL (Mar 7, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> Ditto!!! I'm certainly going to have to pick one of those up for both my .325 and .404 chain! At $10 each, it would be worth it just to give it a try.


 
They make them for .325 but not .404 that I have found anyway.


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## wigglesworth (Mar 7, 2011)

I finally got my pics loaded. These are of a cutter filed with the roller guide. I usually make one freehand stroke on the bottom of the gullet, just to clean it up. As you can see, it does a fantastic job.


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## zogger (Mar 7, 2011)

*Cool*



grandpatractor said:


> The other plate is used by setting it over the rakers to check them.



All right then, they do both. Guess I'll get one. Been hemming and hawing about it. I file pretty fair, but I know I can do better, still get some jitter and bounce in my cuts, and I know that is from uneven cutters and rakers.

I also wonder why they don't have different grade files on the shelf in the shops. What I do now to make up for it is use the older clapped out files for the last touch.


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## Sagetown (Mar 7, 2011)

wigglesworth said:


> i finally got my pics loaded. These are of a cutter filed with the roller guide. I usually make one freehand stroke on the bottom of the gullet, just to clean it up. As you can see, it does a fantastic job.



very nice filing


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## fields_mj (Mar 7, 2011)

HEAVY FUEL said:


> They make them for .325 but not .404 that I have found anyway.


 
Bailey's - Husqvarna Swedish Roller Guide for .404 Pitch Chainsaw Chain


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## indiansprings (Mar 7, 2011)

Wiggs, excellent advice as usual. My oldest son bought one earlier in the year, it's the only way he can hand file consistently. They do a great job.
Nice of you to post the vid and pictures. Rep sent if I don't have to spread it around.


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## HEAVY FUEL (Mar 8, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> Bailey's - Husqvarna Swedish Roller Guide for .404 Pitch Chainsaw Chain


 
Cool. Thanks


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## David (saltas) (Mar 8, 2011)

saltas said:


> lite touch of the file in the field,
> I take four chains for the main bar, 2 chains for the spare, shorter bar.
> 
> use grinder on chains when I get home, but only a light touch ie the smallest amount to put a new face on the cutter, only a finger or two of pressure on the grinders handle



It is probably uncool to quote yourself

I did 8 years in a mechanical workshop after school fixing cars, plus 2 years of metal work at high school and all my school holidays on my grandparents farm.

when I was a first year apprentice I spent 3 months in the engineering departments kindergarten making every thing (jeweller clamps, g clamp, tool box, tap handle,drill angle gauge, etc, etc) with a file, hacksaw and a surface block and bearing blue.

I CAN FILE, I CAN file ACCURATELY, but I can use a machine accurately too.

now I am more than 6 feet tall, 300lbs or 185cm, 135 kg for you Canadians and I can remove a #### load of material with a file, but that is not the point.

I hand file gently with a stihl guide on a round file in the field when I feel like it.
e.g. I need a rest or the saw needs other attention. 

I work in the tropics (think Jamaica ) I.E. more than 90 deg F and more than 90% rel humidity. If the I need a break or the saw needs more, I swap the chain, turn the bar, bar oil, fuel, drink for me, mix some more fuel for later, attend to my co-workers saw (they always need work).

When I get home I strip and clean my saws, true my bars, and sharpen my chains with my Chinese grinder. I grind ever so lightly, I'm ever so quick at grinding. I do my rackers with the grinder too (set at zero deg), after testing them with a go no go jig.

If I was going to go into a chain saw race I would hand sharpen with a file with no guide attached to it. It would take me quite a bit of time and a lot of measuring with a vernier and testing the edge with my thumb/finger, and close inspection (think large bench mounted magnifying glass with integral fluorescent light)

Summary filling is a great skill, I was lucky enough for a mining company to pay me 12 weeks wages full time to learn how to file.

If you cant file a grinder is a useful tool, but you can abuse a chain with a grinder.

If you can file you are more likely to respect the chain and take itsy, bitsy, tiny cuts, so you wont alter the temper of the chain. i.e. no blueing of edge of the grinders cut, no bur on edge of grinders cut etc, etc.

many of you have pointed our a grinder is the quickest / preferred method of repair for a rocked chain.

Yes I own a cheap Chinese grinder, I can machine anything, a poor trades person blames his tools.


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## David (saltas) (Mar 8, 2011)

wigglesworth said:


> Here ya go guys. I have some cutter pics as well, but me and the laptop are arguing about it.
> 
> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MCF4e8FZYAo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



wigglesworth I am not being critical of you nice video of husky jig

these pictures are from this video

notice different angle being file on first tooth compared to second tooth

the first tooth is filed at a more acute angle






the second second tooth is filed at an angle that is more obtuse





I admit to not using a handle on a file occasionally , but you will learn better technique using a handle. You will have better precision by using two hands one on each end of the file i.e. your stroke will be more linear and not a curved stroke that puts a radius on both ends of the face of the cutter.


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## David (saltas) (Mar 8, 2011)

Like I said in my last post about your video, not criticising you, just using the difference in angle between first and second tooth to educate those that are observant, that correct posture and correct technique gives accuracy when filing



wigglesworth said:


> I finally got my pics loaded. These are of a cutter filed with the roller guide. I usually make one freehand stroke on the bottom of the gullet, just to clean it up. As you can see, it does a fantastic job.


 
your pictures do your technique more justice than the video

If everyone could sharpen like that then "nobody would be asking how to sharpen a chain"


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## olyman (Mar 8, 2011)

Laird said:


> Every chain I have tried to sharpen by hand cuts a beautiful curve afterwords. The ones I sharpen with my 511A cuts fast and straight. I carry several spare chains with me and just swap them out when they get dull. I only have to kiss the teeth with the grinder to get them sharp again. Anyone who both sells and sharpens chains will take alot more off than I have to.:msp_mad:


 
very accurately spoken!!!--some of us,,have been discussing this elsewhere..i had the same experience,,when i took my first chain to get sharpened.. 30 mi one way!!,,and the azz blued the teeth,,and took half of it off!!!!! $^&#%^*$% i got some files,,and the carlton file o plate,,and that was the first,,and last,,time he ever touched my saws!!!! but with the modified NT grinder--it sharpens as well as a carlton,efco,stihl,olympyk,,whatever grinder--and like you said--just a slight grazing of the teeth to get the chain sharp--i carry spares also--takes about that long to change it...i have a 24 in bar on the 264,,and a 36 on the 970,,,i AINT sharpening them by hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and they are full compliment,,not skip!!!!!!


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## olyman (Mar 8, 2011)

STLfirewood said:


> I've often wondered if it's worth sharpening a chain. Would you be better off just getting a new chain everytime youj need one. If you buy a spool of chain and make your own you have around $11 in a 16" chain. If I don't hit anything I can easily cut 3-4 cords with a chain before it gets to dull. I have thought about just cutting until a chain is dull then swappiong a new one. Once you have 5 dull ones sell them on e-bay. I bet they would average $7-8 a piece. If that is the case it only costs you about $1 a cord to have a new chain everytime you cut. Now if you rock one it will cost you a couple dollars more. Has anyone else thought about doing this?
> 
> Scott


 
apparently--the wood you cut,,has no embedded sand or dirt--and all your logs---are elevated off the ground when you cut them----and as he said,,all new chains would be a waste....course,,that depends if you are inherently rich--


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## olyman (Mar 8, 2011)

mercer_me said:


> Them grinders will burn your chain. You can't beat a rat tail file to sharpen the teeth and a flat file to take down the rakers.


 
nnooottttttttttt...only a bad operator does that..i dont blue or burn my chains--must be doing something wrong--


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## olyman (Mar 8, 2011)

memory said:


> After looking at some granbergs on ebay, I noticed there are a few different models. Is there any difference in the models?
> 
> This is the one I am looking at.
> New Granberg G-109 File-N-Guide Chain Saw Filing Jig - eBay (item 230593563862 end time Apr-03-11 21:09:52 PDT)
> ...


 
get the NT one thats right aound the 100 billmark...its the one where there was a lonnnnggggg thread some time back,,and the mods they did to it--MANY of them were sold then--because of that thread--i now own two!!!!


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## HighGuy (Mar 8, 2011)

wigglesworth said:


> I finally got my pics loaded. These are of a cutter filed with the roller guide. I usually make one freehand stroke on the bottom of the gullet, just to clean it up. As you can see, it does a fantastic job.


 
Never seen them in use! and how many different things do you keep buying to find something that really works? ... But after your video and pics? I think Bailey's and others are going to get a heck of a run on their sales! 

"Another thing to carry around?" .... That small? That easy? ... Yep! I'm in for a couple! 

THANKS for the time taking them & putting them up!


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## wigglesworth (Mar 8, 2011)

saltas said:


> Like I said in my last post about your video, not criticising you, just using the difference in angle between first and second tooth to educate those that are observant, that correct posture and correct technique gives accuracy when filing......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You know, I thought to myself "Here I am, one handed, holding a camera overhead trying to file a chain. I bet im doing a real good job. Ah well nobody will notice...." 

 Admittedly, I do much better when I concentrate on the filing. Thanks a lot for pointing that out you Jerk....


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## HighGuy (Mar 8, 2011)

Maybe next time a helmet cam? So, you can use 2 hands. What were you thinking?:hmm3grin2orange:


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## tibikedad (Mar 8, 2011)

I sharpen all my chains with an Oregon grinder (cost me $350). I'll use a chain until is starts to get dull (1-2 tanks of gas), and then switch it out for another sharp one. I have about 30 chains, and typically go through 3-5 chains a day. When I have about 20 dull ones, I set up the grinder, and lightly touch up all the chains. It takes me only about 4-5 minutes / chain, so I don't mind it. The key is to take a very minimum amount of metal from each tooth. This way you don't heat up the teeth and ruin them. 

Switching out the chain gives the saw time to cool down, and gives my back a rest, too!


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## STLfirewood (Mar 8, 2011)

olyman said:


> apparently--the wood you cut,,has no embedded sand or dirt--and all your logs---are elevated off the ground when you cut them----and as he said,,all new chains would be a waste....course,,that depends if you are inherently rich--


 
I try not to cut close to the ground. I cut a lot of tops. They are usually off the ground. I grap a top with the skid steer grapple and work it up. It's easy to keep a chain in good shape like that. I don't think new chains wouyld be a waste if you were selling the old ones to recover some cost. Someone would be using them.

Scott


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 8, 2011)

*Supply a Fixed Saw With a Sharp Chain*



STLfirewood said:


> ... I don't thiink new chains would be a waste if you were selling the old ones to recover some cost. Someone would be using them.
> 
> Scott


+1. However, nobody pays a dime for a used chain, especially one that is worn out. My strategy is to look for a chain in my inventory that is in better shape than the chain on the customer's saw. If I can find one, I replace his worn out chain, repair the saw, insert the worthless chain in a plastic bag (sharpened if possible), and give the saw and the old worthless chain back with practically nothing added to the bill. I document in writing exactly what I did in a note to the customer.

If I have no used replacement chain to offer, I let him know that the old chain is garbage. Always be honest. To me, a saw is not fixed or restored unless it can operate with a usable chain. Otherwise, all you did was succeed in getting a motor running that can't cut a banana in half. What good is that for anyone?

Forum, please discuss.


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## fields_mj (Mar 8, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> +1. However, nobody pays a dime for a used chain, especially one that is worn out. My strategy is to look for a chain in my inventory that is in better shape than the chain on the customer's saw. If I can find one, I replace his worn out chain, repair the saw, insert the worthless chain in a plastic bag (sharpened if possible), and give the saw and the old worthless chain back with practically nothing added to the bill. I document in writing exactly what I did in a note to the customer.
> 
> If I have no used replacement chain to offer, I let him know that the old chain is garbage. Always be honest. To me, a saw is not fixed or restored unless it can operate with a usable chain. Otherwise, all you did was succeed in getting a motor running that can't cut a banana in half. What good is that for anyone?
> 
> Forum, please discuss.


 
If more dealers did things like this, there would be very little that people purchased off the internet.


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 9, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> If more dealers did things like this, there would be very little that people purchased off the internet.


Well, I suppose, but look at it this way. If a repair shop spends three or four hours getting a saw engine to run and the engine is driving a worn out chain loop, the overall objective of repairing the saw is not met and the time and owner's money could be wasted.

The idea is to supply a saw to the customer that cuts wood. A saw that runs well with a dull or worn out chain fails. It kind of bugs me to spend several hours saving an engine and then return the saw to the owner with a worthless chain on board. opcorn:


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## StinkyBunny (Mar 9, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> +1. However, nobody pays a dime for a used chain, especially one that is worn out. My strategy is to look for a chain in my inventory that is in better shape than the chain on the customer's saw. If I can find one, I replace his worn out chain, repair the saw, insert the worthless chain in a plastic bag (sharpened if possible), and give the saw and the old worthless chain back with practically nothing added to the bill. I document in writing exactly what I did in a note to the customer.
> 
> If I have no used replacement chain to offer, I let him know that the old chain is garbage. Always be honest. To me, a saw is not fixed or restored unless it can operate with a usable chain. Otherwise, all you did was succeed in getting a motor running that can't cut a banana in half. What good is that for anyone?
> 
> Forum, please discuss.


 
This is the way business used to be done, sadly you and I are a dying breed when it comes to showing people the correct way to do things. 

I use my Stihl sharpener for sharpening. Anyone considering the Mao Freight sharpener should NOT waste your money, it's total and utter GARBAGE!!!:msp_angry:


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## J.W Younger (Mar 9, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> Well, I suppose, but look at it this way. If a repair shop spends three or four hours getting a saw engine to run and the engine is driving a worn out chain loop, the overall objective of repairing the saw is not met and the time and owner's money could be wasted.
> 
> The idea is to supply a saw to the customer that cuts wood. I saw that runs well with a dull or worn out chain fails. It kind of bugs me to spend several hours saving an engine and then return the saw to the owner with a worthless chain on board. opcorn:


There is anouther way too look at this as well.
Say a customers brings his vehicle to me and tells me his tire monitoring system is ####ed and oh by the way please balance the wheels because its vibrateing at over 80MPH.After checking said veh I discover it has 2 tires below 20psi and the TPM system is doing its level best to let the driver know this but he chose too pay a tow bill and have me tell him.
I hope you see what I'm getting at,I can keep the guys tires inflated and you can't keep the other guys chain sharp.


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## fields_mj (Mar 9, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> Well, I suppose, but look at it this way. If a repair shop spends three or four hours getting a saw engine to run and the engine is driving a worn out chain loop, the overall objective of repairing the saw is not met and the time and owner's money could be wasted.
> 
> The idea is to supply a saw to the customer that cuts wood. A saw that runs well with a dull or worn out chain fails. It kind of bugs me to spend several hours saving an engine and then return the saw to the owner with a worthless chain on board. opcorn:


 
I agree 100%


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 9, 2011)

*sharpening chains*

If you own a chain saw, you should learn to sharpen it. It's worthless without a sharp chain and using it with the chain dull just heats up the bar, the chain, sprocket drive, and clutch. If the chain is not throwing big chips, then it's dull or improperly sharpened. I use an air die grinder or Dremel tool with a diamond sharpener to touch up chains on the saw. During the day, I touch up as necessary, usually every other tank of fuel, with the appropriate file. Once the chain has been in use for a while and it's dependent on what you're cutting, you need to check the rakers with a guage and file them down. I do it with a diamond wheel by eye, then go back and check with the guage. Make sure you round off the raker teeth or the chain will not make even contact. No matter how good you are with a file or the grinder, sooner or later, the teeth will get uneven. When that happens, I put it on my saw chain grinder and reset the angles, removing the minimum amount of metal possible. To keep a chain sawing straight, you must have the same angle on both right and left teeth. I haven't found raker height to be a factor in off line cutting unless the teeth angles are also off. But raker height is the most common problem with shop sharpened chains, because they take way too much off the teeth. You can also adjust the rakers for different types of wood. Cutting in wet green almond or oak with full or semi-chisel chain, you can file them way down and really increase the cutting speed without harming either the saw or the chain. In that type of cutting, the wood is soft enough and wet enough that the chain won't heat up and it takes much bigger chips. Remember, a chain saw is not a saw, it is a motorized multi-chisel (that's why the tooth shape is called chisel or semi-chisel). I've not tried it with chipper chains, but I don't use them at all any more. My chain saw grinder is a HF cheapie and I don't trust it for anything more than resetting angles. If you buy a cheapie grinder, you have to be very precise in setting the grinding angle. Make sure that it is the same on both sides by grinding on an old chain and checking the teeth with a micrometer and a protractor. If it's not, take it back and get one that is. Both the Granberg and the Oregon bar clamp sharpeners work well (I own both) but I find them too time consuming. It's better to learn to sharpen by eye and hand. You will develop a feel for when the tooth is just right. As long as you are not removing a lot of metal or dealing with a chain damaged by hitting metal or rock, you can keep your chains just as good as one new out of the box. I have several semi-chisel chains that I have used and sharpened to the point where there is hardly any tooth left. They still cut straight and true and throw great big chips.


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## logbutcher (Mar 12, 2011)

Granberg, roller, grinders all do the job. For simplicity, speed, accuracy, cost , AND .....does the rakers with each pass:

*PFERD*

..seen at Bailey's or any good pro dealer.


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## artbaldoni (Mar 12, 2011)

The PFERD can't be used on skip chain can it?


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## logbutcher (Mar 15, 2011)

artbaldoni said:


> The PFERD can't be used on skip chain can it?



Pferd sharpens the individual tooth/raker sets. Yes on skip.
Ask to see one in action at a good pro dealer.

Note: This tool is better than silicone implants. And no, I have no skin in the Pferd game....except as enthusiast/user.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 16, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Pferd sharpens the individual tooth/raker sets. Yes on skip.
> Ask to see one in action at a good pro dealer.
> 
> Note: This tool is better than silicone implants. And no, I have no skin in the Pferd game....except as enthusiast/user.


 
Do they make seperate units for 3/8 vs .325? Or one size fits all?


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## rhizando (Mar 16, 2011)

Always remember to put the chain back on in the right direction = )
:bang:


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## Oldtimer (Mar 16, 2011)

Bore a hole in a small hardwood at a 15* angle upwards, at a height equal to the top of your belly. Move the saw side to side a little to open the hole up a bit, and a tiny bit up / down so the bar and chain isn't held tight, but not loose.

You now have a perfect filing station.

Sharpen both sides, then lift the saw with one hand and advance the chain by pushing it forward with the file on the BACK side of the filed tooth closest to the saw. This means you won't re-file a tooth. Keep your eye open for the first filed tooth as you keep advancing the chain.

Grinders and shop ground chains are for rank amateurs. Be a man, file with a damn saw file. A file costs me $1.00 at the Husky shop.
I can file a chain to nubs that start breaking off with that ONE file.

Tighten up your game people.


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 16, 2011)

*Bar on Shoulder Technique*

An alternative to Old Timer's technique is the bar on shoulder:

For chains on bars 20" long or more, sit down and rest the bar and chain on your left shoulder and the engine between your legs. With the file in your right hand, sharpen the teeth with a good file.

You can't do the rakers this way, but it will put you back in business after you rocked a chain.


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## logbutcher (Mar 16, 2011)

Hedgerow said:


> Do they make seperate units for 3/8 vs .325? Or one size fits all?



PFERD is sized for the chain. I use two sizes. 
Bailey's now sells the "new improved" tool that is self reversing for both chain sides.

I am sorry: this tool is soooooooo much better than silicone, since it won't kill you ( or a snake --story on the news ) if you by chance get to the silicone through the skin. :msp_w00t:Whew.


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## fields_mj (Mar 17, 2011)

Wood Doctor said:


> An alternative to Old Timer's technique is the bar on shoulder:
> 
> For chains on bars 20" long or more, sit down and rest the bar and chain on your left shoulder and the engine between your legs. With the file in your right hand, sharpen the teeth with a good file.
> 
> You can't do the rakers this way, but it will put you back in business after you rocked a chain.


 
Come on folks. Buy a $10 stump vise. It will out last your saws.


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## slowp (Mar 17, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> Come on folks. Buy a $10 stump vise. It will out last your saws.



That's just another $10 part to lose. 

I use the Chaser method to file. Chasers are the guys on the landing who unhook the logs and then might do some bucking, or limbing, or buck off the broken limbs. They cut dirty wood. A Chaser tends to say naughty words when he has sent down the saw to the rigging crew and they send it back with a dull chain. 

I knew how to file the teeth, but didn't know when to do the rakers. I do it all by hand and eyeball the angle. The Chaser advice was thus,

_Every third filing, hit the rakers a couple of times with your flat file._
That's what I do. The Twinkle or Barbie saw is on the tailgate, ground, or if I'm lucky on the counter in the shop. No vise. 

When they are spitting out chips that hurt my face, the chains are sharp. 

Simple. No rocket science. No calipers. No extra stuff to lose. I do have a hard time remembering if it is the third time. So I carry an abacus around with me.....:jester:


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## Charly (Mar 17, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> That's the key IMHO. I use a file because it doesn't take off nearly as much material. I take a stroke or two off ever cutter every time I fill up the tank (I cut a lot of wood that has been skidded out to where I can get to it). It only takes me about 5 min, and it gives the saw a chance to cool off. One or two strokes is plenty to keep the chain sharp, and the chain lasts a LONG time that way. Grinding too much off with a machine is a good way to ruin the temper on the teeth.
> 
> I also carry a cheap set of calipers in my tool box, and I use them every once in a while to check the lenght of all the cutters. I bring them back to within 0.005" of each other (if needed). I do that two or three times a season depending on how much I've been cutting. When I'm measuring the cutters, I'm normally using the Granberg filing jig that I have. When I'm in the field, I use the cheap STIHL file guide and that's it.


 I second the dial calipers. I use to find brand new Oregon chains with a difference of 0.010 on the cutter length's . I also look at the hash mark on top of the chain to gauge how even the cutters are staying from left to right. Right handed I believe you you wind up taking more off the right hand cutters than the left , with the same amount of strokes . So I add a couple of strokes to the side that needs more removed and things seem to stay even down the road, once checked with the calipers again.


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## Oldtimer (Mar 17, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> Come on folks. Buy a $10 stump vise. It will out last your saws.


 
A hole in a hardwood tree is free, and you can't lose it. And, ya don't have to lug it around.


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 17, 2011)

*Sharpening a chain*

I have also found brand new chains with variable length cutters on them. I got a couple of Oregon chains once where all the right hand cutters were visibly longer than the left. The chains still cut straight. I don't think cutter length matters all that much as long as the teeth are at the proper angles and equally sharp. The only part of the tooth in contact with the cut is the edge and the teeth are tapered so the widest part of the tooth is the cutting edge. It doesn't matter what follows too much, because it's not contacting the wood. Raker consistency is also not that important as long as the rakers are low enough to allow proper cutter contact with the wood. The proper gage of sharpness is simple: is the saw throwing chips and is it cutting straight lines. If these criteria are met, then the chain is sharp. A bent or tweaked bar can cause a saw to cut off line, but it's relatively obvious and easily remedied.


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## fields_mj (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> A hole in a hardwood tree is free, and you can't lose it. And, ya don't have to lug it around.


 
You're going to destroy a young hardwood every time you go cut rather than spend $10, and you're telling US to tighten up OUR game???? Destroying one perfectly healthy hardwood would get me kicked off of just about any of the properties that I cut on. 

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## RPrice (Mar 17, 2011)

flyfshrmn said:


> I have also found brand new chains with variable length cutters on them. I got a couple of Oregon chains once where all the right hand cutters were visibly longer than the left. The chains still cut straight. I don't think cutter length matters all that much as long as the teeth are at the proper angles and equally sharp. The only part of the tooth in contact with the cut is the edge and the teeth are tapered so the widest part of the tooth is the cutting edge. It doesn't matter what follows too much, because it's not contacting the wood. Raker consistency is also not that important as long as the rakers are low enough to allow proper cutter contact with the wood. The proper gage of sharpness is simple: is the saw throwing chips and is it cutting straight lines. If these criteria are met, then the chain is sharp. A bent or tweaked bar can cause a saw to cut off line, but it's relatively obvious and easily remedied.


 
+1, I've found everything above to be true. Some people get too worried about everything being exact. I file by hand. If the cutters are sharp, reasonably close in length and one remembers to file the rakers every 3 - 5 sharpenings, you're golden!


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## slowp (Mar 17, 2011)

View attachment 176436


This is my cutting partner of the week. We have been opening up roads. No firewood, just cutting trees out of the road. I lost the file handle, I think. We didn't take time to make a new handle out of native materials, although we had the skill. 

Just a file, tailgate, and gloves. That's it. No technology.

I got hollered at for taking this picture.


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## Gologit (Mar 17, 2011)

You don't need a stump vise. Use the stump...just cut a kerf in it deep enough to steady the bar and you're good to go.

And dial calipers? If you're fine-tuning a race chain they'd probably be a handy thing to have. I've never seen them used in the woods.

If any of these anal-retentive "my chain must be perfect" types ever put a dial caliper on one of my chains he'd probably go into shock. But, somehow, in spite of my less than perfect cutter length and raker height, I seem to get a lot of wood on the ground.


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 17, 2011)

*chain sharpening*

Unless you hit something hard, drop the saw into the ground or cut stuff up that's been in the mud or been dragged enough to pick up grit, touch up sharpening in the field, just as illustrated in the pic above, is 90% of your sharpening. I just cut twelve cords out of a huge oak with four different saws, kept the bars out of the dirt, and I knocked the bark off the surface where I was cutting the trunk (farm field oak - the bark is full of wind blown dirt) and never had to change a chain on any of the saws, just touch up filing in the field and two or three runs on the small saws with a diamond sharpener when I felt the field sharpening was not enough. Good chains, relatively green wood, clean cutting and no nails, wire, or other metal pieces in the tree to wreck your chains.


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## J.W Younger (Mar 17, 2011)

wheres my boots


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## Gologit (Mar 17, 2011)

flyfshrmn said:


> ...I just cut twelve cords out of a huge oak...


 
Oh, c'mon. I know we have some big oaks in your part of the state...but *12* cords?

Got pictures?


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## chucker (Mar 17, 2011)

"I just cut twelve cords out of a huge oak with four different saws, kept the bars out of the dirt, and I knocked the bark off the surface where I was cutting the trunk (farm field oak - the bark is full of wind blown dirt) and never had to change a chain on any of the saws, just touch up filing in the field and two or three runs on the small saws with a diamond sharpener when I felt the field sharpening was not enough. Good chains, relatively green wood, clean cutting and no nails, wire, or other metal pieces in the tree to wreck your chains. " just another one that needs to tell us whet a cord of woods measures out to in lxwxh= like (8'x4'x16"= a cord)????? just remember hes also a fisherman, like a lot of us!! lol


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## Gologit (Mar 17, 2011)

chucker said:


> " just another one that needs to tell us whet a cord of woods measures out to in lxwxh= like (8'x4'x16"= a cord)????? just remember hes also a fisherman, like a lot of us!! lol


 
In California a cord is 4X4X8 or 128 cubic feet. We don't, and legally can't, use measurements like _rick, face cord, bush cord, or pick-up load._ 
I've cut quite a bit of oak in the same area as flyfishrmn but I never got more than four or five cords out of a tree. They were pretty big...usually at least forty eight inches dbh. Usually at that size they tend toward hollow rot and often the first third of the tree up from the stump is a stove pipe.
I'd sure like to find some solid healthy oak tree that I could cut 12 cords from. I didn't know any like that were left in this area.


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## wendell (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe he's originally from NY where face cords are cords so his 12 is actually 4. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Gologit (Mar 17, 2011)

wendell said:


> Maybe he's originally from NY where face cords are cords so his 12 is actually 4. :hmm3grin2orange:


 
You might be right. _Everybody in California moved there from someplace else._ Except for TreeSlingr, RandyMac, 2dogs...and me.

Those guys are all pretty good saw hands but I'll be willing to bet a beer or two that they've never cut a 12 cord oak. Redwood, maybe, but not an oak. This is a safe bet...if I lose I still get to help drink the beer.


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 18, 2011)

*doubters*

Attached are three pix of the tree. They were taken in early June, after I had been cutting on it for several days. This tree was a 100 year old valley oak, six feet in diameter at the point I stopped cutting with two major branches, one four feet in diameter at the trunk and 40 feet long, the other 30 feet long and about 3.5 feet in diameter plus several smaller branches at least 20 inches in diameter. When I started cutting, all of the branches smaller than about 10 inches were gone or cut up into firewood lengths by the leaseholder's farm crew. We threw away a lot of punky, dry rotted stuff from the branches and left the last six feet of the trunk because if was full of nails, bits of wire and other metal junk. One of my cutting partners is shown in the pictures for perspective. He came over twice from Reno with a large trailer and 3 foot sideboards for his long bed Dodge pickup. We carefully measured both the trailer and the truck and calculated the cubic footage. He took a measured 3.5 cords out of this tree and confirmed that by measuring again after stacking at his house. My wood hauling trailer is 85 cubic feet, 2/3 of a cord, and we usually load it mounded up fairly high because it settles during transit, so I only count a load as 2/3 of a cord. We took 10 trailer loads off this tree and the last load I used vertical cordwood to build higher sidewalls and it was loaded at least 18 inches above the top rails all the way round. Estimating conservatively, that's about 7 cords. My other cutting partner loaded his Toyota full size bed each time we cut. We measured the truck, subtracting for the wheel wells, and calculated his volume at 1/3 of a cord. He took 7 full loads and a couple of partial loads of smaller stuff for his daughter's stove, at least another 2 cords. I also provided the landowner another third to half a cord of small stuff for his shop stove, giving him all the 8-12 inch split pieces. The smaller branch wood, cut up by the farmer's crew to clear the access road which the tree had fallen on, I gave to the farmer, at least another 1/3 cord. 

Cutting trees this size is not firewood cutting, it's logging and now that this one is done, I'm selling the 066Mag and the Efco 7200 I bought to cut this tree up. This is the second one of these I have cut for the landowner and I'm retired from the logging profession. I worked on this tree from late April to late June, often by myself.


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## Gologit (Mar 18, 2011)

That's impressive. And, much as I hate to admit it, that well could be a 12 cord tree. I won't take the time to double check your math but looking at the pictures it seems to be legit. Fine piece of wood.

There aren't many of them left. Did base rot get it or did you guys fall it? If it was base rot how far up the trunk did it go? Just curious. I took some good sized oak out north of Colusa and anything over about 36" dbh was pretty much a stove pipe for the first few feet.

My apologies for doubting your word.


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 18, 2011)

*doubters again*

This tree went over in a windstorm in November 2009. I cut up a similar size one for the landowner in 2007, out of which I took about 10 cords. One of the attached pix shows the butt end about where I quit cutting on that one because it was again full of bits of metal where people had attached things to the trunk. In 2005, I cut up a branch that had fallen off that one, 44 inches in diameter at the base and over 50 feet long, out of which I got 4.5 cords. I finally located a pic of my trailer and of one of my cutting partner's truck with the sideboards attached. Also, another pic of the tree from different perspective, while we worked on it.


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 18, 2011)

*questions and answers*

As far as the trunk integrity, this one was poor. It had been damaged, probably by lightning strike as evidenced by some internal charring and was missing bark on about the outer third of the trunk up to about 8 feet. The trunk wood in this area was dry and dead and the trunk split right along the live/dead wood boundary when it went down. The integrity was compromised too much to handle both the wind load and the 60K pounds plus weight of the tree. The other tree dropped a branch in 2005 and there was a big dead knot at the base of the branch where it broke off. But the tree itself went down in a heavy windstorm after several weeks of rain had saturated the ground and it was fully leafed out. The root structure was incapable of handling the wind loading in the wet ground and the roots were simply pulled up as it went over. It still had enough rooting to transport water and stay mostly green, even when down. There's another tree, even larger on the same property, but it shows no signs of weakness and it's surrounded by several smaller trees which provide a partial wind break. These trees can get as old as 140-150 years before going down. What usually gets them is rot caused by water infiltration along insect bores or termite infestation. Both trees were filled with channels cut by flat nosed borers. I cut up another tree in town that was just as large. It dropped a branch spontaneously in midsummer and when inspected by an arborist, was found to be harboring a huge bee colony and to be in imminent danger of falling and crushing the residence and had to be removed. The branch it dropped fell on the owner's lawnmower, among other things. The mower was driven into the ground about two feet and flattened like a beer can. This tree was in the back yard of the house, surrounded by structures and was removed by sectioning off the branches and lifting them out by crane, then attaching the crane to the trunk and cutting it free from the stump, a very impressive performance by the tree service guys. The stump section was 40 feet long and 5.5 feet in diameter at the base, weighed close to 35K pounds.


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## Dalmatian90 (Mar 18, 2011)

Ok, now I can make my admission after Slowp's tailgate sharpening pics...

I was too cold blooded to go and use the garage vice this winter.

So since the cold weather came in, I'd sharpen my saws by sitting in front of my woodstove with the door open (mmmmm...feel the radiant heat...not recommended if your saw is leaking gasoline  )

Slap an old leather glove over my thigh, position the saw in a way I could sharpen it, use another old glove on my hand holding the chain/bar, and touch up the chain. Do one side, the re-position the saw to do the other half of the teeth.

A bit to my own surprise, it worked out OK the first time so I kept doing it. 

I do like the suggestions above to cut a groove in a stump, too...and that will probably become my default in-the-field method.


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## GeeVee (Mar 18, 2011)

Nice greedy boards on that truck.

BIG tree.


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## fields_mj (Mar 18, 2011)

Gologit said:


> You don't need a stump vise. Use the stump...just cut a kerf in it deep enough to steady the bar and you're good to go.
> 
> And dial calipers? If you're fine-tuning a race chain they'd probably be a handy thing to have. I've never seen them used in the woods.
> 
> If any of these anal-retentive "my chain must be perfect" types ever put a dial caliper on one of my chains he'd probably go into shock. But, somehow, in spite of my less than perfect cutter length and raker height, I seem to get a lot of wood on the ground.


 
A stump vice doesn't need to go into a stump. I've sharpend my saws on the tail gate, but it's a PITA compared to using a stump vise. I've flattened one side of a round and then noodled a groove into it. That's better than nothing, but the stump vice is the quickest and easiest solution that I've found. Just tap it into a round of firewood, and wala, instent vice and work bench. Even if you don't have any big rounds that you can use, you can still lay a smaller piece of firewood on its side and tap the vice in perpendicular to the grain and then use your tailgate. 

It would be a complete waste of time to use a set of calipers in the woods. I pitty (a little bit anyway) anyone that's that anal. When I mentioned using calipers, I was refering to the work bench at home, maybe three or four times in the life of the chain, or after hitting a rock, fence, nail, bullet, or what ever in a tree. It's a tool to be used to get the chain back to a uniform condition once in a while. Not something to be used when touching up the chain, especially out in the woods.


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## Gologit (Mar 18, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> A stump vice doesn't need to go into a stump. I've sharpend my saws on the tail gate, but it's a PITA compared to using a stump vise. I've flattened one side of a round and then noodled a groove into it. That's better than nothing, but the stump vice is the quickest and easiest solution that I've found. Just tap it into a round of firewood, and wala, instent vice and work bench. Even if you don't have any big rounds that you can use, you can still lay a smaller piece of firewood on its side and tap the vice in perpendicular to the grain and then use your tailgate.
> 
> It would be a complete waste of time to use a set of calipers in the woods. I pitty (a little bit anyway) anyone that's that anal. When I mentioned using calipers, I was refering to the work bench at home, maybe three or four times in the life of the chain, or after hitting a rock, fence, nail, bullet, or what ever in a tree. It's a tool to be used to get the chain back to a uniform condition once in a while. Not something to be used when touching up the chain, especially out in the woods.


 
Well said. As a rule I don't sharpen in the woods, I just change chains. But if I'm a long way from the pickup or my day bag and I need to touch one up to finish a cut I'll just do a quick hand file.

The exception to this is if I get into a lot of really dirty wood and eat up all of my spare chains...then I spend a little time on them. A while back we were falling second growth on a side hill that was all shot-rock from an old mining operation. When the trees hit the ground they'd get full of rock. I used every chain I had that day and resharpened on my lunch break. Doesn't take long...a 36" bar with full skip has only 38 cutters.


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## logbutcher (Mar 18, 2011)

Well: another "don't tell me anything I don't know".

Northeastern loggers don't need no stinkin' 36" skip chains; our trees are DBH averaging < 24". In Rare cases a dead standing 'pasture oak' > 36" left long ago as a property marker will need felling. Most of our bars are +/- 24" tops. And, most sawlog/veneer cuts are hardwoods, not those easy peazy obese softwoods found on the left coast.:hmm3grin2orange::msp_ohmy:

Believe it: I've even dropped a 34" DBH dead oak with my 260 18" bar. Can you believe ? ( Do I dare say "boring"? :msp_unsure Dead oaks are chain killers since the cambium sucks up grit even though dead. 

And again: wouldn't do without the handy stump vise for quick touch ups or rockers in the field, far from the vehicle or shop. Try it Bob, maybe something new. Try the Pferd tools. Another 'new'.....then "Bob's your uncle".


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## Hedgerow (Mar 18, 2011)

Just got a PFERD... Used the 3/8 last night... Rollers work well... Would like it to sit just a bit lower on the tooth, but overall, did a good consistent job both directions and totally portable. Fits in my pocket next to the chew can...:msp_wink: Not a necessary tool, but it's one I'll be keeping...


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## memory (Mar 18, 2011)

Just curious, where do you buy the Pferd system at? 

I bought a bar mounted system from Tractor Supply and I do not care for it, Oregon Sure Sharp brand. When trying to sharpen one set of teeth, it does not want to slide right.

I don't quite understand how it is supposed to be mounted either. The directions say to put the front clamp on the center of the chain rivets. But I tried that and soon as I turn the chain, it will come off. So I just put it as close to the chain as possible when I used it.

So I just took the file out and started sharpening by hand. I still need to get a raker guide eventually.

Let's see if someone can explain this to me. I took a protractor and measured the angle of the line that is on the tooth and it was 60 degrees. But the box says it is a 35 degree cutting angle. 

Thanks for all the great responses. And that is one big oak tree.


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## fields_mj (Mar 18, 2011)

memory said:


> Let's see if someone can explain this to me. I took a protractor and measured the angle of the line that is on the tooth and it was 60 degrees. But the box says it is a 35 degree cutting angle.
> 
> Thanks for all the great responses. And that is one big oak tree.



Just because it says so on the box (advertising) doesn't mean that it came from the factory that way. What you measured at 60 degrees, is also 30 degrees from being perpendicular (90-60=30). Your cutters are currently at 30 degrees. I've not seen that are at 35 degrees (but I haven't looked much either). Most of them are either 25 or 30. I like 30 better, but I've found that it needs touched up a little more often. I touch up after every tank, so that's no big deal to me.


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## rhizando (Mar 18, 2011)

You joke about NY and face cord but its the truth. Everyone who sells firewood here sells it by the "face" cord. Even the log loads I get are advertised as 18-20 cord (they really mean face cord). I don't remember the last time I saw firewood for sale which actually meant a full cord. What's even worse is 90 percent of them don't even disclose that its a face cord and just advertise it as a cord which makes it even worse. 

When you ask for 3 cord of wood here you get one full cord


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## Wood Doctor (Mar 18, 2011)

*Slabwood Can Eat Chains*



Gologit said:


> Well said. As a rule I don't sharpen in the woods, I just change chains. But if I'm a long way from the pickup or my day bag and I need to touch one up to finish a cut I'll just do a quick hand file.
> 
> The exception to this is if I get into a lot of really dirty wood and eat up all of my spare chains...then I spend a little time on them. A while back we were falling second growth on a side hill that was all shot-rock from an old mining operation. When the trees hit the ground they'd get full of rock. I used every chain I had that day and resharpened on my lunch break. Doesn't take long...a 36" bar with full skip has only 38 cutters.


+1. Take an extra chain or two to the worksite and use all of them before you sharpen anything.

When you get back to the shop, sharpen your chains there using any tecnnique that you are comfortable with. I once went through three chains at the worksite--all of it was slabwood and the bark was packed with dirt. It was senseless to continue.


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## zogger (Mar 18, 2011)

*Great pics and stories!*

Your giant tree got my bragger whopper oak I dropped beat 2 to 1 on volume/cords. That's one mambo tree there!


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## logbutcher (Mar 19, 2011)

memory said:


> Just curious, where do you buy the Pferd system at?
> 
> I bought a bar mounted system from Tractor Supply and I do not care for it, Oregon Sure Sharp brand. When trying to sharpen one set of teeth, it does not want to slide right.
> 
> ...



No need for all that mounting or raker guides with the PFERD system. Just follow the witness lines on top of the teeth. Except for precise milling, the Pferd does BOTH tooth and raker in each pass to ~ .025" .

PFERD is sold by Baileys online here and at pro dealers under both "Pferd" and another name by Husky ( may be "ChainSharp"). Be sure to match the Pferd to your chain pitch.

It's so easy and fast to use that we rarely use the grinder anymore. With a stump vise it's great in the field.

JMNSHO


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## Oldtimer (Mar 19, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> You're going to destroy a young hardwood every time you go cut rather than spend $10, and you're telling US to tighten up OUR game???? Destroying one perfectly healthy hardwood would get me kicked off of just about any of the properties that I cut on.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks I guess.


 
I have one tree with a hole in it on the landing, always a garbage tree that will never have any value beyond pulp or firewood. And the hole heals right over in a few years.


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## David (saltas) (Mar 19, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I have one tree with a hole in it on the landing, always a garbage tree that will never have any value beyond pulp or firewood. And the hole heals right over in a few years.


 
all trees have a value, it is not your fault if you cant see that

Trees do not repair themselves, the damaged wood dies and is compartmentalised, the trees health is affected forever.


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## flyfshrmn (Mar 19, 2011)

*cord/face cord*

I am familiar with the term face cord, but you rarely hear it out here on the left coast. Most people who sell, sell by the cord and some of them are honest. I did hear several comments when I was selling on the side like, "That's looks like a lot more than I got the last time I bought a cord," and after unloading the trailer (2/3 of a cord), then dropping it and backing the truck up to the pile, "There's more?" After I quit selling, I told my buyers that anyone who drove up with a pickup load had better have it all the way full right up to the top of at least 3 foot sideboards if they were delivering a cord.


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## Oldtimer (Mar 20, 2011)

saltas said:


> all trees have a value, it is not your fault if you cant see that
> 
> Trees do not repair themselves, the damaged wood dies and is compartmentalised, the trees health is affected forever.


 
Cry me a river. You guys have any idea how many saplings I run over every day in the woods? You'd all be flagellating yerselves till you was out of blood. 






This mamby pamby "don't harm the poor tree!" malarkey is falling on deaf ears. Sell the treehugger propoganda to someone else.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 21, 2011)

Now that's funny right there...


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## logbutcher (Mar 21, 2011)

saltas said:


> all trees have a value, it is not your fault if you cant see that
> Trees do not repair themselves, the damaged wood dies and is compartmentalised, the trees health is affected forever.



Sorry Saltas--that's wrong in both cases, as in incorrect.....twice. Trees are a crop to many, analogous to food or animals we grow and eat for survival.

The "value" is subjective; anthropomorphizing or bambiizing :msp_rolleyes: trees doesn't make anything more or less valuable. We harvest, we use the product for building as well as aesthetics. Paper. Fuel. Veneer. Chemicals. 

Now trees will 'heal' themselves over time. Many generations-old trees have repaired 'injuries' ( e.g. lightening, fencing, rounds, blazes, fire, etc....) that have not affected the growth or functionality of the tree. Can't tell you how many we've harvested for high end use ( veneer or flooring for example) that have "repaired themselves". Plenty of Forestry Science and biology for you to read.

Please, no bambi stuff.

JMNSHO


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## artbaldoni (Mar 21, 2011)

Sooo...how do you sharpen your chains? :arg: opcorn:


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## boilerwood (Mar 21, 2011)

when I first decided to sharpen my own chains I bought a grinder from Northern because I figured I'd screw up all my chains if I did them by hand. After reading this thread and several others I watched a few "how to" videos and bought some files. 

Proud to say that things have gone better than expected and it really isn't that big a deal to hand sharpen, and touching up when refilling keeps a nice sharp chain throwin' chips! 

If I do get them out of whack I can always straighten them up with the grinder, no biggie. 

If you're like me and afraid to hand file, give it a shot. You really have nothing to lose.


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## artbaldoni (Mar 21, 2011)

:agree2:


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## RPrice (Mar 21, 2011)

boilerwood said:


> when I first decided to sharpen my own chains I bought a grinder from Northern because I figured I'd screw up all my chains if I did them by hand. After reading this thread and several others I watched a few "how to" videos and bought some files.
> 
> Proud to say that things have gone better than expected and it really isn't that big a deal to hand sharpen, and touching up when refilling keeps a nice sharp chain throwin' chips!
> 
> ...


 
+1, excellent!:msp_smile:


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## logbutcher (Mar 21, 2011)

artbaldoni said:


> Sooo...how do you sharpen your chains? :arg: opcorn:



Said and accounted for Arthur: *PFERD*.


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## David (saltas) (Mar 24, 2011)

*apology to the op for hijacking the tread. To reply nay sayer*



logbutcher said:


> Sorry Saltas--that's wrong in both cases, as in incorrect.....twice. Trees are a crop to many, analogous to food or animals we grow and eat for survival.
> 
> The "value" is subjective; anthropomorphizing or bambiizing :msp_rolleyes: trees doesn't make anything more or less valuable. We harvest, we use the product for building as well as aesthetics. Paper. Fuel. Veneer. Chemicals.
> 
> ...




Nothing I said was nabi pambi stuff

All I was saying in the first statement was that there is not such thing as a tree that has no value. 
You said I was wrong and then went on to list all sorts of value a tree might have. So clearly you agreed with me.

My second statement was that trees cannot trees cannot repair damaged tissue. This you not only did you disagreed with me, but you were certain I was wrong. You listed all sorts of damage that trees could "repair".

from HOW TREES SURVIVE By Dr. Alex Shigo

"Trees cannot "go back" to restore, repair, replace or regenerate parts. You do not restore a church by building a new one next to it. All words in English that start with "re" mean that new parts will go back in previously occupied positions or back to an original state. These words have no meaning for trees. These words have been the basis for great amounts of confusion. A tree cannot function in the same ways as animals do after injuries or threats to their survival. The continuing use of such meaningless words for trees is a strong indication why tree basics should be understood by people who work with trees."

go to this link and see If I'm quoting out of context 

http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/shigo/SURVIVE.html

The tree grows new wood over the wound, and compartmentalises the damaged wood. "CODIT" look it up. For ever after the tree will have a defect in it and not be as healthy or as strong as one that was not damaged.

Damaging a tree to sharpen your saw is about the #@$%^& thing I have heard in a long time. 
For the saw to need sharpening surely their must be some fallen wood or a tree stump that you have just cut that you could use even if you did not have a $10 stump vice.


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## David (saltas) (Mar 24, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Cry me a river. You guys have any idea how many saplings I run over every day in the woods? You'd all be flagellating yerselves till you was out of blood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This was very funny :msp_smile:


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## logbutcher (Mar 24, 2011)

Lighten up Saltas................that expert "Dr." Alex Shigo wouldn't be a Proctologist would he ?:msp_tongue:

Hey, my stump vise ain't "$10.00".:msp_ohmy:

P.S. Analogies only go so far in science. (e.g. building a church...)


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## J.W Younger (Mar 24, 2011)

I use a double bevel and/or a goofy+a round for the gullets



]


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## David (saltas) (Mar 25, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Lighten up Saltas................that expert "Dr." Alex Shigo wouldn't be a Proctologist would he ?:msp_tongue:
> 
> Hey, my stump vise ain't "$10.00".:msp_ohmy:
> 
> P.S. Analogies only go so far in science. (e.g. building a church...)


 
No problem. just expressing my self , free speach. right of reply and all of that. 

lighten up sure, I thought old timer was very funny.


Back to the tread, I take one saw. two bars and six chains into the woods. more sharp chains than I have ever needed.
some times it file in the field, other times I just swap out the chain,
chance to keep the saw clean on dirty or sappy wood. Or get a drink for my self. I strip and clean saw each time I bring it home and clean and sharpen the chains, more often with a grinder. this is only a light kiss. I treat each cutter as if it is a dollar bill and only grind a penny or two of of it. Just enough to keep it sharp.

the sharper the chain the less my body aches.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 25, 2011)

J.W Younger said:


> I use a double bevel and/or a goofy+a round for the gullets
> 
> 
> 
> ]


 





Nice Dlomar...


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## logbutcher (Mar 27, 2011)

* NOTE: PFERD HAND SHARPENERS WILL NOT WORK ON SKIP CHAINS. 

I WAS WRONG:taped: ( AFTER TRYING IT ON ONE OF OUR SKIP CHAINS.)
The Pferd bar rides on the top of the next tooth. 

Mea culpa.:msp_scared:*


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## artbaldoni (Mar 27, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification.:msp_wink:


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## J.W Younger (Mar 27, 2011)

artbaldoni said:


> Thanks for the clarification.:msp_wink:


No kiddin,did'nt need no bi-stinkin-focals to read that!


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## trailmaker (Mar 29, 2011)

Maybe this basic question has been answered but on which stroke are you supposed to apply pressure when using a hand file?


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## wigglesworth (Mar 29, 2011)

FWIW, the Husky Roller guide works on skip chain.


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## logbutcher (Mar 29, 2011)

wigglesworth said:


> FWIW, the Husky Roller guide works on skip chain.



Right. Nice simple tool that works on each tooth. We used to carry a couple of them since they're small and fit in shirt pockets.

Most cutters don't use skip chains except for the big boys in the PNW. The Pferd does both the tooth and raker on each pass. 

Glad you all like the big print.:msp_w00t:

Hand filing ( the only kind out there in the field ): light pressure on the forward stroke only. Remove the file slightly from the tooth on the return.
Be sure to replace files when there's no filings; the files wear fast. Those stump vises (except for the stump vise deniers) do the job.


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## slowp (Mar 29, 2011)

We short girls use skip chain also. :msp_smile:


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## logbutcher (Mar 29, 2011)

slowp said:


> We short girls use skip chain also. :msp_smile:


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## kelpking (Apr 2, 2011)

*field sharpen*

I usually will end up sharpening in the field or with the saw in a vice on a bench. for the amount of work i do it makes more sense then getting a grinder. plus you dont need a power outlet


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## fields_mj (Apr 3, 2011)

I picked up one of the Husky roller guides to try after reading about it here and watching the video. Mine is for 0.325 chain. It works fine on most chain, but I have a couple of Oregon safety chains with the bumper links, and it does not work on them. The bumpers prevent the guide from sitting down on the chain correctly. Other than that, it's a nice compact little tool, and I don't regret getting it at all. I found that after using it, I still prefer the Stihl guide that attaches to my file, but that's probably because I'm so used to it.


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## logbutcher (Apr 3, 2011)

fields_mj said:


> I picked up one of the Husky roller guides to try after reading about it here and watching the video. Mine is for 0.325 chain. It works fine on most chain, but I have a couple of *Oregon safety chains with the bumper links*, and it does not work on them. The bumpers prevent the guide from sitting down on the chain correctly. Other than that, it's a nice compact little tool, and I don't regret getting it at all. I found that after using it, I still prefer the Stihl guide that attaches to my file, but that's probably because I'm so used to it.



Safety chains ain't. :taped:

JMNSHO


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## mga (May 10, 2011)

unexpectedly, my kid bought me a chain sharpener from Harbor Freight.

so, i set it up and did an old chain i had laying around to get the feel of it. i put the chain on my saw and holy ####!

that thing cut better than new. i cut down several ash trees and it's still eating wood. i sharpened the rest of my chains after that and i have about 20 of them.

the wheel is still good and i'm cutting my fingers on my newly sharpened chains.

so, for the harbor freight machine...i give it a big :msp_thumbup:


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