# Is it legal to tie into a cranes loadline? Where to find the right information on it



## jasonftccrane (Jan 26, 2012)

Im new to this forum and i know this subject has been discussed before but, Ive heard and read several answers and i was wondering if OSHA or ANSI or whoever has a page or website to tell me if riding a cranes load line is legal or not. From what ive read in the past and learned is that if you tie into the load line above the headache ball with 2 tie in points its ok. But i am just not clear on the subject because people say different things and if that is ok im just looking for proof of it. Also i hear that a new law from OSHA is that all crane operators must have a CCO certification by the year 2014, Whats your thought or comments on this?


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## mattfr12 (Jan 26, 2012)

the new tree care magazine has an article on this ill try to dig it up but to answer your question yes it is if you follow the ANSI standards.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 26, 2012)

Maybe the search function is not expressed enough!
Jeff


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## tree md (Jan 26, 2012)

I run into this a lot with different crane services. Yes, by ANZI standards tree workers are allowed to tie in above the ball. Most times it is the safest way when there is no viable tie with the work. I wish more operators and services would take the time to research the standards. Especially when a climber's safety often depends on it.


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## superjunior (Jan 26, 2012)

I often wonder why it is above the ball and not the ball itself with a good locking system. Honestly every crane outfit I see around here ties into the ball - which happens to be the way I was shown and taught. Not sayin it's right at all, which it apparently is not - just don't understand when the hook seems so smooth and rope friendly while above the ball seems so abrasive to a climbing line.


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## jasonftccrane (Jan 26, 2012)

To tie onto above the headache ball you put a pruskit loop with a carabeaner and also a separate shackle so their is 2 points of tie into incase one failed , it's also rope friendly . On another note I've also heard ANSI is under OSHA and just because ANSI is ok with it doesn't mean that OSHA approved it ? is that true


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## mattfr12 (Jan 26, 2012)

jasonftccrane said:


> To tie onto above the headache ball you put a pruskit loop with a carabeaner and also a separate shackle so their is 2 points of tie into incase one failed , it's also rope friendly . On another note I've also heard ANSI is under OSHA and just because ANSI is ok with it doesn't mean that OSHA approved it ? is that true



it all depends on the situation if it is safer to be tied into the crane than the tree then they allow it. but if the tree is fine they can frown at it and possibly fine you. I've never had a problem with it and i always ride it. why waste time spiking up when you can take the elevator. theirs a lot of grey areas.

and no matter what anyone says people are gonna continue to do it just make sure your doing it safe. TIP to the hook itself can be dangerous for a lot of reasons. forget about the rope slipping out a lot of times i stay tied into the crane until the load is getting ready to be carried away. why because i can get super good body position and am not straining my back with a large saw up in a tree. common sense is key. this would be highly frowned upon if your gonna pick a piece that you feel you better get untied from the crane you probably should be taking a smaller piece.

you don't want your rope where the slings are get tangled causing you to get pulled out of the tree by the crane especially when climber and operator can't see each other.

i made my own way of hooking above the ball probably not legal but i feel really safe on it. ill have to snap a picture of it and post it kinda hard to explain made it out of bull rope and rolling caribeaners through a shackle

i also put small tack welds on the shackle above the ball it would have to be cut off theirs no unscrewing it.


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## fdoberman (Jan 27, 2012)

As a person who holds a Crane License in NY State let me splain it to you from my point of view.

My License, MY RULES backed by the machine owner's rules based on his insurance carrier's rules! If I can see the hook and you tie on the way it will play out is I lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. There won't be any arguing about it!

If I can't see the hook and you tie into my lifting line the oiler or person spotting the hook better tell me right quick so I can lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. 

I'll also guarantee you that you and your company will go on a list of customers who will NEVER again get crane service.

Yes I do know you're the last of the cowboys, know everything there is to know about knots, shackles, slings, ropes, nonmetalic straps and of course the machine I'm sitting in because I HOLD THE LICENSE! You also know exactly what the hunk of wood you're about to load onto my machine weighs to the pound, what my boom angle is, how much I can pick at that angle and how much groundpressure I'll be putting on the outrigger carrying the majority of the pick. Again, I HOLD THE LICENSE! 

I spent a few hundred hours qualifying to test for that License, and I ain't about to loose it for one pick that went down the crapper.

You don't like the way I do things? I HOLD THE LICENSE! Guess who wins the argument?

Fortunately there are plenty of cranes available to be bought thanks to the current lack of demand. Since you probably don't want to bother getting a License, I suggest you buy a truck mounted machine. 

Best of luck to you.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 27, 2012)

Riding the ball is part of removing trees with a crane. Seems like everytime I do tree work with a crane I end up riding the ball at some point. I have never got a crane operator that had a problem with it. I use a crane to lanyard strap that I bought at american arborist for $67. It has a 2' length of 3- layered triple stitched nylon webbing. It has a shackle on the top with a screw on nut and cotter pin. The other end has a metal ring. I always put a auto lock biner on it with a petzel pully just because the pulley runs a little smoother.


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## PinnaclePete (Jan 27, 2012)

https://secure.tcia.org/Core/Orders/product.aspx?prodId=153&catId=1

Get the crane and rigging BMPs


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> As a person who holds a Crane License in NY State let me splain it to you from my point of view.
> 
> My License, MY RULES backed by the machine owner's rules based on his insurance carrier's rules! If I can see the hook and you tie on the way it will play out is I lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. There won't be any arguing about it!
> 
> ...



Yes, unfortunately there are many "been everywhere, seen everything", know it all owners out there. It nearly cost me my life over the Summer as I was removing 2 very large trees that had come over in a storm and were through the second story of the house. The trees were stacked on top of each other, the bottom tree being a large pine that had split in three sections. The operator was picking in the blind on the other side of the house. The house was structurally unsound due to the storm damage. When I made my first cut on the compromised pine the split section gave way along with the entire second story structure of the house. It collapsed underneath me. I had to bail to a lower level breezeway that connected two living areas of the house, bounced off of the roof of the breezeway and hit the deck. Had I have been allowed to tie into the ball I could have swung free and safe and not injured my foot in the fall.

You're right, it's your crane and your rules. I just hope the next time you call 911 it is not to come pick up a dead climber due to your ignorance and know it all attitude cowboy.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 27, 2012)

ANSI has standards on approved ways to do it. You can buy the standard from Sherrill, I think it's 20 bucks. Per OSHA, a crane is not allowed to lift a person unless in a man basket or a bosun seat with fall arrest harness. However, tree trimming is exempt from the OSHA standards for cranes. So you must refer to the ANSI. At the end of the day though, OSHA can still show up to your job and cite you for whatever the hell they want, have fun fighting those fines. The problem is that some OSHA inspectors are either unaware of the rules or just don't care. This causes many crane owners and operators to make it their company policy to never allow anyone to ride the ball. I've gone round with my operator in NYS on this for a few years. He will now allow me to ride if there is no other feasible option. IE, I cannot get my bucket to the tree. However, I do not take advantage of this, and usually only get a ride up once or twice depending on the tree. Sucks, but it is what it is.


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## superjunior (Jan 27, 2012)

guess I still don't get why riding the ball would be any more dangerous then going up in a bucket. not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the reasoning


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## Iustinian (Jan 27, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> As a person who holds a Crane License in NY State let me splain it to you from my point of view.
> 
> My License, MY RULES backed by the machine owner's rules based on his insurance carrier's rules! If I can see the hook and you tie on the way it will play out is I lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. There won't be any arguing about it!
> 
> ...



And you would go on the list of crane companies that would NEVER get any business from tree services. 

yea, its your crane and your license, but ANSI has devoted much more in the way of qualified study than your couple hundred dollars of licensing and they say its safe in many situations.

Yes we are very capable of closely estimating the pieces which we rig using the green log weight chart which every working tree service truck is required to have on board under ANSI rules. We rig wood routinely more often than not without a crane using equipment with exact maximum break strength, working load limits, and cycles to failure. We have learned that a 650 lb log has the capability of generating over 7,000 lbs of force at the rigging point before it hits the ground if it is shockloaded. 

Everyone else has hit it on the head, you must be tied in above the ball with seperate hardware so that your climbing line never has running contact with the parts of the crane.


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## Iustinian (Jan 27, 2012)

superjunior said:


> guess I still don't get why riding the ball would be any more dangerous then going up in a bucket. not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the reasoning



primarily because the parts of the crane although they may appear to be smooth can tear your climbing line. Also the difference in the strength of the cables on the crane versus the strenth of your climb line -- if anything catches, you're the first to fall. Also because a you have no control of the operation of the crane like how you do when you are operating the aerial lifts.


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## fdoberman (Jan 27, 2012)

tree md said:


> Yes, unfortunately there are many "been everywhere, seen everything", know it all owners out there. It nearly cost me my life over the Summer as I was removing 2 very large trees that had come over in a storm and were through the second story of the house. The trees were stacked on top of each other, the bottom tree being a large pine that had split in three sections. *The operator was picking in the blind on the other side of the house.* The house was structurally unsound due to the storm damage. When I made my first cut on the compromised pine the split section gave way along with the entire second story structure of the house. *It collapsed underneath me*. I had to bail to a lower level breezeway that connected two living areas of the house, bounced off of the roof of the breezeway and hit the deck. *Had I have been allowed to tie into the ball I could have swung free and safe and not injured my foot in the fall.*
> 
> You're right, it's your crane and your rules. I just hope the next time you call 911 it is not to come pick up a dead climber due to your ignorance and know it all attitude cowboy.



HAD you done YOUR job correctly YOU wouldn't have been injured.
Don't even claim the crane operator was any part of YOUR screwup.

You're right, I am ignorant of many things. I wouldn't even attempt to operate a tower crane because I don't know the machine. I damn well wouldn't attempt to take a load that was under tension either because I'm ignorant of how it is going to bounce when it is cut free.

Calling 911 to pick a dead climber up, no problem. He will get dead from his screwup, NOT MINE. If he's nice enough to leave the number for his next of kin I'll call them too. I have a lot of minutes available.

I don't tell climbers how to cut trees and I will NOT accept any climber telling me how to run my machine. I do not make the rules, the insurance carrier does. My LICENSE = MY RULES. I know why the rules exist.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

I hold small and large telescopic license that's why we buy our own cranes. We don't like playing by other companies rules. If our operators don't like it thier is plenty in the un employment line. Waiting for a job. 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## dbl612 (Jan 27, 2012)

*crane use for tree work*



fdoberman said:


> Why is it so many monkeys who constantly chatter about double climbing lines want to ride a single lifting line? You got any idea what holds that ball on the cable?


easy fella, we realize your a big time crane op with a new york state license. no one here is forceing you to work with climbers. just say no thank you, i don't lift climbers. relax, its not good for you to operate a crane in an enraged mental state. lighten up, were not impressed! LOL!


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## oldirty (Jan 27, 2012)

and if you use a friction saver to tie into a crane you are a dumbass and chances are you have no "right" to be using a crane in the first place.


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

OD, you rock.

As do the rest of the climbers in the know about crane work here. This dude is a Joker who has no business doing trees in the first place. Anyone can rig static loads of steel dumb ####. Crane work with trees is an an art and very lucrative. Too bad you're missing the boat on that one. I'm glad you're not lifting climbers. You don't have the brains for it.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

oldirty said:


> and if you use a friction saver to tie into a crane you are a dumbass and chances are you have no "right" to be using a crane in the first place.



we rent from like 4-5 different companies none of them have a problem with riding the ball if you think about it is it really that unsafe? whats worse tying into a crane or climbing a rotten tree. i would have to say the crane is in the safer side of my job duties.


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## Zale (Jan 27, 2012)

oldirty said:


> and if you use a friction saver to tie into a crane you are a dumbass and chances are you have no "right" to be using a crane in the first place.



Have there been any cases where a friction saver has failed on a crane?


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

tree md said:


> OD, you rock.
> 
> As do the rest of the climbers in the know about crane work here. This dude is a Joker who has no business doing trees in the first place. Anyone can rig static loads of steel dumb ####. Crane work with trees is an an art and very lucrative. Too bad you're missing the boat on that one. I'm glad you're not lifting climbers. You don't have the brains for it.



the guys bragin about being a certified crane operator. i dunno about other places but in PA it was a 2 week course at the local crane sales place me and a guy that worked for me got it and didn't have to do to much studying. not rocket science.

they break it into two classifications large and small telescopic generally anything with an operators cab is large telescopic.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Zale said:


> Have there been any cases where a friction saver has failed on a crane?



just not a good idea to put it up against abrasive parts thats why the shackle goes into place a lot smoother and it won't cut through anything.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jan 27, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> As a person who holds a Crane License in NY State let me splain it to you from my point of view.
> 
> My License, MY RULES backed by the machine owner's rules based on his insurance carrier's rules! If I can see the hook and you tie on the way it will play out is I lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. There won't be any arguing about it!
> 
> ...



Do a lot of tree removals? I appreciate your input considerably but fail to understand why you are getting so worked up. I work for one of the oldest tree companies around and we ride the crane, tied in according to the ANSI standard. The whole purpose of the thread was how to do this safe and proper.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> HAD you done YOUR job correctly YOU wouldn't have been injured.
> Don't even claim the crane operator was any part of YOUR screwup.
> 
> You're right, I am ignorant of many things. I wouldn't even attempt to operate a tower crane because I don't know the machine. I damn well wouldn't attempt to take a load that was under tension either because I'm ignorant of how it is going to bounce when it is cut free.
> ...





your insurance company makes the rules on how to operate your machine. man i must have missed that in CCO class ill have them fax me a copy right away. thanks for the heads up.:msp_sneaky:


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Slvrmple72 said:


> Do a lot of tree removals? I appreciate your input considerably but fail to understand why you are getting so worked up. I work for one of the oldest tree companies around and we ride the crane, tied in according to the ANSI standard. The whole purpose of the thread was how to do this safe and proper.



i don't appreciate it its all BS thats the problem with this site 50% BS. theirs about ten false statements in his post. after 50 people that do it for a living tell him otherwise he still thinks he's right.

sure he's a CCO him and about 3 other million people. he must be the smartest one.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jan 27, 2012)

Read more of the thread.... I should have done it before posting. What is he doing on here anyhow?

Anyone else do funny cartoon swimming in the air as they are being hoisted up? :yoyo:


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Fixed it hope its easier to read. i must have dumped some coffee in my scanner tried cleaning only got worse.

View attachment 220115


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## mr. holden wood (Jan 27, 2012)

Zale said:


> Have there been any cases where a friction saver has failed on a crane?



No,It's just not his prefered tip. For the record anything that od aint doing is wrong, gay or amature. I'll tie into a hook with a pin and not sweat it for a second as most anyone will. I don't think he would blow a driveway without his chaps and a hi viz shirt on. Only fail I ever heard was a shackle that flipped and spun the pin, dropped the climber, pretty sad story a local guy.
Any company will lift ya and if they dont move on.The reason you rent a crane is for efficiency and safety.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 27, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> i don't appreciate it its all BS thats the problem with this site 50% BS. theirs about ten false statements in his post. after 50 people that do it for a living tell him otherwise he still thinks he's right.
> 
> sure he's a CCO him and about 3 other million people. he must be the smartest one.



Ah, ease up Matt, he is just a scared tick. He has reasoned himself into submission.
Jeff


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> the guys bragin about being a certified crane operator. i dunno about other places but in PA it was a 2 week course at the local crane sales place me and a guy that worked for me got it and didn't have to do to much studying. not rocket science.
> 
> they break it into two classifications large and small telescopic generally anything with an operators cab is large telescopic.



My guess is recently licensed (within the last couple of years) and hasn't seen any real work yet... And no real tree work. Believe me, after 20 years of doing crane removals, it's very easy to spot a rookie just by the way he talks. 20 Years down the line he might think back on this little exchange and realize what an ass he has been... That is if they don't pull his license for killing someone. Those who live by the book die by it.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Ah, ease up Matt, he is just a scared tick. He has reasoned himself into submission.
> Jeff




i know i just hate to see it anymore. like beating 50 dead horses has been discussed 1000's of times.


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## oldirty (Jan 27, 2012)

mr. holden wood said:


> No,It's just not his prefered tip. For the record anything that od aint doing is wrong, gay or amature. I'll tie into a hook with a pin and not sweat it for a second as most anyone will. I don't think he would blow a driveway without his chaps and a hi viz shirt on. Only fail I ever heard was a shackle that flipped and spun the pin, dropped the climber, pretty sad story a local guy.
> Any company will lift ya and if they dont move on.The reason you rent a crane is for efficiency and safety.




this coming from the guy who now climbs with the right size saw for the crane usage due to my tutelage and
keep running that rope over the slings and you'll burn through em, holdy, and thats no bueno.....

now if you ran 2 master links off the hook (1 for the slings and 1 for the climber) that be fine too just put the climbing shackle first then the load shackle. then pin the hook......

and upon further review of this post of your's it is true that if you climbing or working in a manner of which i disapprove then the chances are you will indeed be a complete stiff with little skill and less knowledge. you probably very unsafe too.

and the chaps thing is true because if i am blowing off a driveway then we working and if we working then i am wearing chaps. i even wear chaps in the bucket. why? because we working. if i'm on the clock, i'm wearing chaps. if i walk into dunkin donuts on the way to the next job i guarantee i'm in chaps. why? because we just left the job that i was just working at and this little pit stop is on the way to the next place i am working at. 

even the high vis too. my wife beater is a company hi vis, as is my t shirt, as is the long sleeve, as is the company hoodie, as is the company winter coat.

safety first.


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

oldirty said:


> this coming from the guy who now climbs with the right size saw for the crane usage due to my tutelage and
> keep running that rope over the slings and you'll burn through em, holdy, and thats no bueno.....
> 
> now if you ran 2 master links off the hook (1 for the slings and 1 for the climber) that be fine too just put the climbing shackle first then the load shackle. then pin the hook......
> ...



Yeah, but WTF is up wit dat treeman beard??? I'm scared your gonna get it caught in the chipper!


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## oldirty (Jan 27, 2012)

Zale said:


> Have there been any cases where a friction saver has failed on a crane?



the ball of a crane is a very tough place to be a part of. i would not want to be hanging around on a piece of fabric in an area of rather extreme violence. 

you just cannot go wrong with the picture i shared. its bullet proof and only makes sense. double the safety even.


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## oldirty (Jan 27, 2012)

tree md said:


> Yeah, but WTF is up wit dat treeman beard??? I'm scared your gonna get it caught in the chipper!



lol.

just been letting that baby grow. free range beard, i let it do as it pleases.

true story.


i was doing a couple easy ash trees just tall and skinny with the crane near some wires. 2 pickers. these trees were absolutely smothered in vines as well. so i just set the sling and had him tighten up. as i rap'd down i was being deliberate due to the proximity and the vines. i had just gotten a foot tangled and leaned into the climb line and freed my foot then fast rap'd to get by. as soon as i got going all of a sudden i came to a screeching halt....

my beard got caught in my prussic!! i was hanging with all my weight on the beard and no where near a branch to stand on. i had to do a 1 arm pull up and try to free myself by undoing my distal knot with one hand..... try it by the way, unloading a fully loaded distal with one hand.

needless to say there were some hearty laughs from the log truck driver and crane op. good times. still a full beard so it only hurt the pride minus the good sized tuft of beard hair that was stuck in the knot....

how you been, larry? well i hope.

btw, this thing is getting pretty rugged. almost a year old now. the gf is going to bake a cake for its birthday. feb 12.


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

LOL, Doin good bro. hit me on my old number when you get a chance. Glad to hear you and the little woman are doing good... BTW, How the hell did a goober like you end up with such a hot girl???


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## oldirty (Jan 27, 2012)

tree md said:


> LOL, Doin good bro. hit me on my old number when you get a chance. Glad to hear you and the little woman are doing good... BTW, How the hell did a goober like you end up with such a hot girl???



its probably a combination of my killer good looks and charming personality, i'd say..... i know you liked them legs.

i'll send ya a text tomorrow. cool?


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

Well, I knew it couldn't be because of your longfellow because you don't have one! 

Call or text anytime bro. I would have already hit you but I had to replace my phone and lost your #

I'm coming to Boston soon...


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## mattfr12 (Jan 27, 2012)

oldirty said:


> lol.
> 
> just been letting that baby grow. free range beard, i let it do as it pleases.
> 
> ...




OD i got a 2 year old daughter and a 3 month old boy times are hard for this tree man had to put down the stihl's and huskys and start microwaven bottles and have the smell of wipes on my hands instead of bar oil anymore.


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## fdoberman (Jan 28, 2012)

tree md said:


> My guess is recently licensed (within the last couple of years) and hasn't seen any real work yet... And no real tree work. Believe me, after 20 years of doing crane removals, it's very easy to spot a rookie just by the way he talks. 20 Years down the line he might think back on this little exchange and realize what an ass he has been... That is if they don't pull his license for killing someone. Those who live by the book die by it.



Would you consider the first license in 1979 recent? 

I've already got better than 30 years in the seat, started on a machine with 7 levers and 6 foot pedals with a lattice boom & jib. The house wasn't air conditioned either. 

Like I said there are plenty of machines for sale, you brilliant moneymaking young fellows ought to go buy one. They even make machines now that don't take much force to move the little joystick that would be just perfect for tree work. Some even have computers that supposedly prevent mistakes by the operator.


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## tree md (Jan 28, 2012)

Don't sound like you've learned a lot in 30 years... Sounds like you are still doing the same old, same old static loads. Glad it's working for you and your not killing tree guys. Like I said, you don't have the brains for it.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 28, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> Would you consider the first license in 1979 recent?
> 
> I've already got better than 30 years in the seat, started on a machine with 7 levers and 6 foot pedals with a lattice boom & jib. The house wasn't air conditioned either.
> 
> Like I said there are plenty of machines for sale, you brilliant moneymaking young fellows ought to go buy one. They even make machines now that don't take much force to move the little joystick that would be just perfect for tree work. Some even have computers that supposedly prevent mistakes by the operator.



i did buy one actually bought two if you wanna be down to a science about it. oldest one is a 2011 we don't run no stuff with 6 foot petals. and 50 levers


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## mattfr12 (Jan 28, 2012)

and heres a picture of me riding the hook under the wires and out over the back of a house to pick a tree that fell on it? o my under the wires and on the hook two fouls happened there what to do. what to do. 
see thies new fangled ones don't have 50 levers you can get a remote control kinda like what you use to turn your TV on if your still with me. And you don't even need an operator!! a one man wrecking machine.







Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## Zale (Jan 28, 2012)

oldirty said:


> the ball of a crane is a very tough place to be a part of. i would not want to be hanging around on a piece of fabric in an area of rather extreme violence.
> 
> you just cannot go wrong with the picture i shared. its bullet proof and only makes sense. double the safety even.



I was just curious. Over the years, I've used your set up, friction saver, rescue steel carabiner and pulley all secured above the ball. They all worked for me. I think it would have to be some pretty extreme violence to cut through the fabric of a friction saver. I also would not be tied into the crane while it was under load.


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## tree md (Jan 28, 2012)

Sounds like someone should take a bow and head back to the porch with the static loads. Way outclassed here... Don't go away mad, just go away.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 28, 2012)

tree md said:


> Sounds like someone should take a bow and head back to the porch with the static loads. Way outclassed here... Don't go away mad, just go away.



I think he did. i hate when people think there the next best thing since sliced bread. i don't care how many levers your crane had odds are I'm not the best tree climber in the world. and odds are he's not the best or knows everything about cranes.

once you think you know it all you might as well quite because the rest that are still learning will make you look stone age and blow by you like a nascar at talladega.


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## tree md (Jan 28, 2012)

If you're not keeping up with changes in the industry and new standards then you are being left behind... And losing money. I mean, if we didn't follow changes in the industry and industry standards we would still be topping trees and filling cavities with cement...


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 28, 2012)

What? 



I thought that was industry standard. Why just the other day........topped it and filled it with cement. Quikrete to be exact. Times er changin'.


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## stihlboy (Jan 28, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> HAD you done YOUR job correctly YOU wouldn't have been injured.
> Don't even claim the crane operator was any part of YOUR screwup.
> 
> You're right, I am ignorant of many things. I wouldn't even attempt to operate a tower crane because I don't know the machine. I damn well wouldn't attempt to take a load that was under tension either because I'm ignorant of how it is going to bounce when it is cut free.
> ...



fdoberman, with posts like this don't expect to be treated nicely.

Its LEGAL get over it! 

if you dont feel comfortable doing it fine, nobody is forcing you.

I'm sure there are more capable operators that would love the extra $$$


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 28, 2012)

Zale said:


> I was just curious. Over the years, I've used your set up, friction saver, rescue steel carabiner and pulley all secured above the ball. They all worked for me. I think it would have to be some pretty extreme violence to cut through the fabric of a friction saver. I also would not be tied into the crane while it was under load.



One problem with hooking in to the ball is having to have the rope and the strap in the same space, you could get the strap ontop of your rope and when tighened up, and you would be stuck. The other problem is that if there is a bur or a sharp edge on the hook, that could cut your rope like a hot butter knife.


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## Zale (Jan 28, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> One problem with hooking in to the ball is having to have the rope and the strap in the same space, you could get the strap ontop of your rope and when tighened up, and you would be stuck. The other problem is that if there is a bur or a sharp edge on the hook, that could cut your rope like a hot butter knife.



The set ups that I have used all involve being secured above the hook. This question of wether or not its "legal" to tie into the crane never seems to get resolved. This question has been around for decades. We can follow the current standards put forth by our industry and thats about it. It seems people think the OSHA Police are out there just waiting for you to hoist a climber on a crane. In reality, you will never see OSHA unless you have a fatality on the job site. Find a good crane operator who you trust, follow industry guidelines and be safe.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 28, 2012)

Zale said:


> In reality, you will never see OSHA unless you have a fatality on the job site.



Thats not true. I was talking to a tree company down in west chester that got shut down and fined by osha last summer. Osha was out investigating a roofing company down the street, and they seen the tree company working. They stood across the road and video tape them working, then went to there car and got there clip board and hard hat and shut the tree company down. The bucket man was wearing a bucket waist belt instead of a 3pt harness and fall arrest lanyard. They couldnt go back to work until they got a 3pt harness. I know i like my waist belt better then wearing a 3pt harness in the bucket, but i now carry a 3pt harness with me.


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## Zale (Jan 28, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Thats not true. I was talking to a tree company down in west chester that got shut down and fined by osha last summer. Osha was out investigating a roofing company down the street, and they seen the tree company working. They stood across the road and video tape them working, then went to there car and got there clip board and hard hat and shut the tree company down. The bucket man was wearing a bucket waist belt instead of a 3pt harness and fall arrest lanyard. They couldnt go back to work until they got a 3pt harness. I know i like my waist belt better then wearing a 3pt harness in the bucket, but i now carry a 3pt harness with me.



If the company had a 3pt harness and the operator was wearing it would they have been shut down? They were not following industry standards.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 28, 2012)

I was pointing out that they do come out other then for a fatality. That's all, never said they weren't doing anything wrong. I know, I like a belt much better then a 3pt. Why do I want a lanyard that is long enough to let me fall out of the basket, then drop 6 feet as the fall arrester opens up. No thanks, I will keep wearing my belt, its my butt. Techically if you wear your climbing saddle up in the bucket to climb out onto the tree you would be in violation.

Sent from my droid


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## beastmaster (Jan 28, 2012)

superjunior said:


> guess I still don't get why riding the ball would be any more dangerous then going up in a bucket. not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the reasoning


One thing that is always on my mind when I am raised by a crane over rising my self in a bucket, is if I should get under something like a big branch,and the crane is still lifting me, That crane can't feel that, and you could get crushed as your lifted. 
I know, I know, not much chance of that if the op has his eyes on, but thats just my pet fear. 
That being said I always get a lift into the tree, I have never yet rode down with the pick, but if I didn't feel conferrable with the integrity of the tree I was in, I wouldn't do it any other way, no matter what any Gov. or state agency said. their at a desk not on some tree with their back pockets touching.


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## beastmaster (Jan 28, 2012)

Zale said:


> I was just curious. Over the years, I've used your set up, friction saver, rescue steel carabiner and pulley all secured above the ball. They all worked for me. I think it would have to be some pretty extreme violence to cut through the fabric of a friction saver. I also would not be tied into the crane while it was under load.



I am still a novice working with cranes, but Iv'e been getting a crash course the last few years. I've done a few jobs I probably wasn't qualified for at the time and made some dumb mistakes.
I once hook my line to the hook. The ball was flat on top and the big steel carribiner I was using was side loaded if I attached it above the ball. Any way I had both my lanyard and climbing line throu the hook, I attached the steel choker to a branch and the crane tightened it. My climbing line got under the choker and was mangle bad enough I had to cut that piece off and retie before I could safely descend on it. I caught it right away too, before it was really cinched down. 11mm blaze. It would of sliced it in a heart beat.
PS: I was well a weir of the potential dangers before hand. Still happened.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 28, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Thats not true. I was talking to a tree company down in west chester that got shut down and fined by osha last summer. Osha was out investigating a roofing company down the street, and they seen the tree company working. They stood across the road and video tape them working, then went to there car and got there clip board and hard hat and shut the tree company down. The bucket man was wearing a bucket waist belt instead of a 3pt harness and fall arrest lanyard. They couldnt go back to work until they got a 3pt harness. I know i like my waist belt better then wearing a 3pt harness in the bucket, but i now carry a 3pt harness with me.



O ya they definitely will show up especially once they know your legal. Guys flying under the radar without workers comp they don't even know their in business. because half the time they don't have anything registered because they don't wanna go to jail. those are the guys they are really looking for. If you have employees and no comp wait till they show up the fees for comp will start looking cheap. seen a guy say he had them registered as sub contractors doesn't work like that. one of those guys break their leg your gonna pay for it and might wind up in prison.

Hard hats and safety glasses are provided by me i have no problem with them their cheap to provide. and they are mandatory. and at this state its me and 1 other guy that do the cutting so i don't have to try and watch 10 people to see if their doing stupid stuff when I'm not around.


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## Iustinian (Jan 28, 2012)

Zale said:


> The set ups that I have used all involve being secured above the hook. This question of wether or not its "legal" to tie into the crane never seems to get resolved. This question has been around for decades. We can follow the current standards put forth by our industry and thats about it. It seems people think the OSHA Police are out there just waiting for you to hoist a climber on a crane. In reality, you will never see OSHA unless you have a fatality on the job site. Find a good crane operator who you trust, follow industry guidelines and be safe.



I disagree. OSHA will also show up if you have someone making a complaint, anonymous or otherwise. In most cases it will be an employee or ex-employee that you recently pissed off lol. 

Work comp auditors have shown up to my site before but thats always gone well.


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## Zale (Jan 28, 2012)

Iustinian said:


> I disagree. OSHA will also show up if you have someone making a complaint, anonymous or otherwise. In most cases it will be an employee or ex-employee that you recently pissed off lol.
> 
> Work comp auditors have shown up to my site before but thats always gone well.



Who is a "work comp auditor" associated with? OSHA or state? Besides Iustinian, has anyone here actually been inspected by OSHA? It seems everyone's examples are second hand. I don't say that it doesn't happen it just seems to be a rare occurrence unless there is a fatality. I've been working in the Washington, DC area (the headquarters of OSHA) for 20 years and have never run into this issue.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 28, 2012)

Zale said:


> Who is a "work comp auditor" associated with? OSHA or state? Besides Iustinian, has anyone here actually been inspected by OSHA? It seems everyone's examples are second hand. I don't say that it doesn't happen it just seems to be a rare occurrence unless there is a fatality. I've been working in the Washington, DC area (the headquarters of OSHA) for 20 years and have never run into this issue.



Comp is associated with the state. some states allow you to go to an underwriter some don't. In PA i had to stay with the state for a number of years without a claim before i could move to an underwriter or a union. Comp audits your books on a yearly basis and you have to have the posters so your employees can read them. so they are hanging around the shop.

OSHA normally only does show up when their is a fatality or an accident. mostly because they police a lot more than just tree care. but they are definitely around. guy got electricuted a few years ago and i think his osha fines alone added up to around 200k.

But if another company where to turn you in or ex employee for doing unsafe practice more than likely they might show up.


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## fdoberman (Jan 29, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> and heres a picture of me riding the hook under the wires and out over the back of a house to pick a tree that fell on it? o my under the wires and on the hook two fouls happened there what to do. what to do.
> see thies new fangled ones don't have 50 levers you can get a remote control kinda like what you use to turn your TV on if your still with me. And you don't even need an operator!! a one man wrecking machine.
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, I thought you said crane.
I didn't know Harbor Freight or is that Northern Hydraulics sold fishing poles that big.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 29, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> Oh, I thought you said crane.
> I didn't know Harbor Freight or is that Northern Hydraulics sold fishing poles that big.



please don't make me go out in the dark and snap pictures of the 60ton i have more than one. And you know whats funny the crane in the picture, odds are is worth more than what your operating even tho its only 75 foot. you can buy a brand new 30 ton for less money. and at that angle i can guarantee you it will out pick whatever your running.

pound for pound knuckle boom is the strongest hydraulic mounted lifting device on a truck. (pound for pound) find an 8 thousand pound crane that will lift 14k at that angle then lets talk.


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## tree MDS (Jan 29, 2012)

Lol, hey Matt, maybe you can buy yourself a nice rainbow for your avatar next! Go git em Bulldog!! Grr...


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 29, 2012)

tree MDS said:


> Lol, hey Matt, maybe you can buy yourself a nice rainbow for your avatar next! Go git em Bulldog!! Grr...



yea whats up with all this crazy ass crap people have in there posts I mean real dark lettering , personalized sayings under there names I even saw some queer with tree beard or something under there gay KELLY GREEN name turns red and ####..:eek2:


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## beastmaster (Jan 29, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> please don't make me go out in the dark and snap pictures of the 60ton i have more than one. And you know whats funny the crane in the picture, odds are is worth more than what your operating even tho its only 75 foot. you can buy a brand new 30 ton for less money. and at that angle i can guarantee you it will out pick whatever your running.
> 
> pound for pound knuckle boom is the strongest hydraulic mounted lifting device on a truck. (pound for pound) find an 8 thousand pound crane that will lift 14k at that angle then lets talk.



K-booms are the shizzzzit. Even if your not lifting your self(that is so cool)the radio control allows you to view the the pick from any angle you want. Insurance advantages also i believe. 
Why doesn't anyone use the winch on K-booms?


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## ROPECLIMBER (Jan 29, 2012)

jasonftccrane said:


> Im new to this forum and i know this subject has been discussed before but, Ive heard and read several answers and i was wondering if OSHA or ANSI or whoever has a page or website to tell me if riding a cranes load line is legal or not. From what ive read in the past and learned is that if you tie into the load line above the headache ball with 2 tie in points its ok. But i am just not clear on the subject because people say different things and if that is ok im just looking for proof of it. Also i hear that a new law from OSHA is that all crane operators must have a CCO certification by the year 2014, Whats your thought or comments on this?



With regard to the OSHA policy of requiring upper controls on personnel platforms attached to mobile crane booms established by our June 14 letter, please be advised that that letter has been superseded and is no longer in effect. OSHA's current policy is as follows:


Personnel platforms that are suspended from the load line and used in construction are covered by 29 CFR 1926.550(g). Under that standard there is no requirement for controls at the platform station. In addition, there is no specific provision for suspended personnel platforms in Part 1910. The governing provision, therefore, is general provision *1910.180(h)(3)(v), which prohibits hoisting, lowering, swinging or traveling while anyone is on the load or hook. OSHA has determined, however, that when the use of a conventional means of access to an elevated worksite would be impossible or more hazardous, a violation of 1910.180(h)(3)(v) will be treated as de minimis if the employer has complied with the provisions set forth in 1926.550(g)(3), 1926.550(g)(4), 1926.550(g)(5), 1926.550(g)(6), 1926.550(g)(7) and 1926.550(g)(8).*

02/17/1993 - Suspended personnel platforms.

now this one says no, so need a new one
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24409


now this one says go with ANSI Standards

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25577


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## mattfr12 (Jan 29, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> yea whats up with all this crazy ass crap people have in there posts I mean real dark lettering , personalized sayings under there names I even saw some queer with tree beard or something under there gay KELLY GREEN name turns red and ####..:eek2:



Does MDS not now ive had him on the ignore list for like a month now? i can only see it if you quote it like that. him and a few others made the list ive never been happier here.


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## tree MDS (Jan 29, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> Does MDS not now ive had him on the ignore list for like a month now? i can only see it if you quote it like that. him and a few others made the list ive never been happier here.



I think it's a good thing that you have been able to "come out", and be honest with yourself about things Matt! 

More power to ya!! and best of luck with the next new crane bud!!


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## fdoberman (Jan 29, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> please don't make me go out in the dark and snap pictures of the 60ton i have more than one. And you know whats funny the crane in the picture, odds are is worth more than what your operating even tho its only 75 foot. you can buy a brand new 30 ton for less money. and at that angle i can guarantee you it will out pick whatever your running.
> 
> pound for pound knuckle boom is the strongest hydraulic mounted lifting device on a truck. (pound for pound) find an 8 thousand pound crane that will lift 14k at that angle then lets talk.



Gee, I'd love to talk. Thing is I operate a crane, and you call an oiler's truck with a loading boom a crane. Where shall we begin?

My climate controlled cab tilts 20° at the touch of a button so I don't gt a stiff neck looking out to the end of 237 feet of boom. How far does that HIAB reach?
The machine I've run the last 2 years weighs just short of 90,000 pounds. Your HIAB rig weighs how much?
I can lock onto the counterweights and mount them without leaving the seat. Does your HIAB have counterweights?

Tell you what, I'll print that picture of you dangling on the end of the fishpole and tack it up on the board next time I'm in the shop. You serve as a shining example.


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## tree md (Jan 29, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> Gee, I'd love to talk. Thing is I operate a crane, and you call an oiler's truck with a loading boom a crane. Where shall we begin?
> 
> My climate controlled cab tilts 20° at the touch of a button so I don't gt a stiff neck looking out to the end of 237 feet of boom. How far does that HIAB reach?
> The machine I've run the last 2 years weighs just short of 90,000 pounds. Your HIAB rig weighs how much?
> ...



Congrats, you are the first actual person I have neg repped. I don't even neg rep the dumb asses that post in the commercial forum but you are special.


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## dbl612 (Jan 29, 2012)

*stats*



fdoberman said:


> Gee, I'd love to talk. Thing is I operate a crane, and you call an oiler's truck with a loading boom a crane. Where shall we begin?
> 
> My climate controlled cab tilts 20° at the touch of a button so I don't gt a stiff neck looking out to the end of 237 feet of boom. How far does that HIAB reach?
> The machine I've run the last 2 years weighs just short of 90,000 pounds. Your HIAB rig weighs how much?
> ...


if your going to brag about your machine, try to get the specs right. theres no machine around with 237 ft. and a tilt cab that weighs 90,000# working unless they just let you drive it from job to job, stripped down. then they let a real op set it up and run it.


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## fdoberman (Jan 29, 2012)

dbl612 said:


> if your going to brag about your machine, try to get the specs right. theres no machine around with 237 ft. and a tilt cab that weighs 90,000# working unless they just let you drive it from job to job, stripped down. then they let a real op set it up and run it.



Can you spell GROVE TMS 9000E?

GROVE is a division of Manitouac.

Fuel mileage sucketh!

89,972# according to the manufacturer, I've never bothered to weigh it though.

BTW, you're right, I don't drive it, that's the oiler's job. He drives from the nontilting cab under the headblock when the boom is collapsed. I just go round and round all day.


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## fdoberman (Jan 29, 2012)

tree md said:


> Congrats, you are the first actual person I have neg repped. I don't even neg rep the dumb asses that post in the commercial forum but you are special.



Gee, thanks. Does that entitle me to a free steak dinner for two that I'll need a chainsaw to cut? Will there be a nice wood mounted brass plaque? I can prop it up in the window of my climate controlled cab, maybe even use it for a cutting board for my cheese & cracker snack in the afternoon.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 29, 2012)




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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 29, 2012)

fdoberman

Why dont you go back under your rock. I dont care how big your stick is or how many peddles you got, nor does anyone else care!!!!! I know all the crane ops around here drive there own truck, even the ones as big as yours.


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## tree md (Jan 29, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> Gee, thanks. Does that entitle me to a free steak dinner for two that I'll need a chainsaw to cut? Will there be a nice wood mounted brass plaque? I can prop it up in the window of my climate controlled cab, maybe even use it for a cutting board for my cheese & cracker snack in the afternoon.



Sure, if you like tube steak.


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## fdoberman (Jan 29, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> fdoberman
> 
> Why dont you go back under your rock. I dont care how big your stick is or how many peddles you got, nor does anyone else care!!!!! I know all the crane ops around here drive there own truck, even the ones as big as yours.



Lancaster, let me think.
Oh, the place where all the rolling equipment is pulled by horses.
Now are you talking about the thing with ropes that lifts the hay up into the barn with the big wheel the horse walks in, or has some Dutchie rigged an A frame onto his wagon?

Of course everybody who's a crane op in Lancaster drives their own. The horse won't move for everybody and his cousin.

Only place I know of there is Dorney Park. Do you operate a ride at Dorney Park?


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## mattfr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> Gee, I'd love to talk. Thing is I operate a crane, and you call an oiler's truck with a loading boom a crane. Where shall we begin?
> 
> My climate controlled cab tilts 20° at the touch of a button so I don't gt a stiff neck looking out to the end of 237 feet of boom. How far does that HIAB reach?
> The machine I've run the last 2 years weighs just short of 90,000 pounds. Your HIAB rig weighs how much?
> ...



are you serious HIAB is a brand and mine is definetly not a HIAB. Since when did HIAB start painting their stuff yellow? I also am starting to highly doubt someone as intelligent as is even allowed to see if the correct psi are in the tires of ford fiesta.


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## stihlboy (Jan 30, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> Oh, I thought you said crane.
> I didn't know Harbor Freight or is that Northern Hydraulics sold fishing poles that big.





fdoberman said:


> Lancaster, let me think.
> Oh, the place where all the rolling equipment is pulled by horses.
> Now are you talking about the thing with ropes that lifts the hay up into the barn with the big wheel the horse walks in, or has some Dutchie rigged an A frame onto his wagon?
> 
> ...


fdoberman, Last warning! i dont like the way you degrade others. it will not be tolerated


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## superjunior (Jan 30, 2012)

fdoberman, why are you in a tree care forum anyway? Do you do a lot of removals with YOUR crane? just curious..


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## tree md (Jan 30, 2012)

superjunior said:


> fdoberman, why are you in a tree care forum anyway? Do you do a lot of removals with YOUR crane? just curious..



Because he's a troll. He's they type of dude that sits in his climate controlled cab with a pair of Raybans on because he thinks it makes him look cool and goes through the same motions day in and day out thinking to himself what a great op he is. Believe me, I have met many like him. Don't even waste your breath, talking to him is like talking to a stone wall. He's already got everything figured out. 

Back to the static loads doberman or whatever TF your name is. Cable up, cable down, you've got a lot of "technical" rigging to oversee.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 30, 2012)

superjunior said:


> fdoberman, why are you in a tree care forum anyway? Do you do a lot of removals with YOUR crane? just curious..



He dont do tree work cause he holds the licence remember! he just calls 911. I would hate to have to show him up running his own crane, but maybe its time for a good old crane rodeo. I will bring my horses and some hay. Can you check my tire pressure for me?


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## dbl612 (Jan 30, 2012)

*stats*



fdoberman said:


> Can you spell GROVE TMS 9000E?
> 
> GROVE is a division of Manitouac.
> 
> ...


can you spell manitowoc ? thats the approx weight of the crane w? no cwt. we have no doubt that you go round and round all day.


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## treeslayer (Jan 30, 2012)

fdoberman said:


> As a person who holds a Crane License in NY State let me splain it to you from my point of view.
> 
> My License, MY RULES backed by the machine owner's rules based on his insurance carrier's rules! If I can see the hook and you tie on the way it will play out is I lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. There won't be any arguing about it!
> 
> ...



What a pussi. :hmm3grin2orange:

Get the fock off the commercial climbers page dipstick.


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## treeslayer (Jan 30, 2012)

Larry, you back in Birmingham yet?:msp_w00t:
jeez, they can't catch a break, huh?


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## tree md (Jan 30, 2012)

Not back Dave. I did get a call last week for a 10 pine removal. Still getting calls from there. My aunt said there were trees down all over last week.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Jan 30, 2012)

I read all the bantering and "my stick is bigger" post and still no awnser to the original question of this thread, When I ride the Ball for the purpose of securring slings to a weak or dead stem that other wise is not acomplishable, is it legal through ANSI and /or OSHA. I spent a lot of time reading on OSHA site, and could not find the up to date answer,my last post has all the links to this reading,
Paul


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 30, 2012)

This fdoberman is really something special! In this thread he claims to be a 'bigtime' crane operator, yet in a thread in the Heating forum he claims to be a 'world class welder' and is currently retired. You can find a link to that thread, in the thread here about the elephant. What a joke.

To the OP, I understand your confusion. I hope the upcoming Z133 gives a little more info.
Rick


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 30, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> I read all the bantering and "my stick is bigger" post and still no awnser to the original question of this thread, When I ride the Ball for the purpose of securring slings to a weak or dead stem that other wise is not acomplishable, is it legal through ANSI and /or OSHA. I spent a lot of time reading on OSHA site, and could not find the up to date answer,my last post has all the links to this reading,
> Paul



Then you need to read better. I laid it all out in my first post. The answer you're looking for is yes...and no. ANSI says yes, OSHA says no...kinda. It's not exactly in black and white.


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 30, 2012)

Blakesmaster said:


> It's not exactly in black and white.



And that is the problem! We don't like gray areas in tree work. Knots are either tied exactly right, or they are totally wrong. Our cuts are either done right or they are very wrong which can lead to things going wrong. I'm not saying there is only one right knot, just that there is only one way to correctly tie it. We prefer things to be cut and dried, no pun intended.
Climbing rotten trees is a gray area, and we all hate them because of it. ANSI vs. OSHA looks pretty gray to me and I don't like it.
Rick


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## mattfr12 (Jan 30, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> And that is the problem! We don't like gray areas in tree work. Knots are either tied exactly right, or they are totally wrong. Our cuts are either done right or they are very wrong which can lead to things going wrong. I'm not saying there is only one right knot, just that there is only one way to correctly tie it. We prefer things to be cut and dried, no pun intended.
> Climbing rotten trees is a gray area, and we all hate them because of it. ANSI vs. OSHA looks pretty gray to me and I don't like it.
> Rick



then don't do it? i dunno what your saying. no one says you have to do it. you either do or don't. that grey area is pretty much gonna always be their since it has for years.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Jan 31, 2012)

Blakesmaster said:


> ANSI has standards on approved ways to do it. You can buy the standard from Sherrill, I think it's 20 bucks. Per OSHA, a crane is not allowed to lift a person unless in a man basket or a bosun seat with fall arrest harness. However, tree trimming is exempt from the OSHA standards for cranes. So you must refer to the ANSI. At the end of the day though, OSHA can still show up to your job and cite you for whatever the hell they want, have fun fighting those fines. The problem is that some OSHA inspectors are either unaware of the rules or just don't care. This causes many crane owners and operators to make it their company policy to never allow anyone to ride the ball. I've gone round with my operator in NYS on this for a few years. He will now allow me to ride if there is no other feasible option. IE, I cannot get my bucket to the tree. However, I do not take advantage of this, and usually only get a ride up once or twice depending on the tree. Sucks, but it is what it is.



Ya, I was trying to find it in black and white, found the latest OSHA letter of interpatation saying that,and to follow ANSI Z133.1 industry standards,


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## Bomber (Jan 31, 2012)

I think I saw Doberman-F-er in my gym today.

[video=youtube_share;3FGZvFZdVbk]http://youtu.be/3FGZvFZdVbk[/video]


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