# felling a leaner



## Adkpk (Aug 18, 2008)

Red oak in the center

The anchor point is right behind me where I am taking the pic.







Reason for take down. Plus the top doesn't have much left to it.



























I will put a snatch block at the tree saver and connect the end of the cable to the winch on my car (4 Runner). Put a shallow notch on the face and a shallow back cut and pull with the winch until I get the lean on my side or it falls over. 
Now, I don't want to go to either side so I need a bull rope tied around the trunk 30' up where the cable is and anchored to trees on either side. 
It would be done already but since it's only 20' from the house I want to make sure I have it right. Also I don't have any bull rope. I could use my half inch Arbor Plex or my True Blue and upgrade my climbing line. Or buy a bull rope. Any advise? Thanks.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 18, 2008)

I am not sure I completely understand your set up, so I will tell you how I would do it from scratch.

Set the pull line all the way up in the crotch about 4' from where the top is broken out. Maximum pulling power.

Use an open face notch so the hinge stays intact and doesn't break off and go to one side.

I would very slightly pretension the line, face it, bore it, drop 2 wedges in it, and trip the strap low. Walk over to the come along and pull it over.

This is what it looks like to me, of course it could look different in person. Like where I would put the rope not actually being strong enough, or a weak hinge.

As far as rope, 1/2" True Blue is a very strong 1/2" line. Let me know what you think.


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## Groundman One (Aug 18, 2008)

We've done trees like that where the climber ties off in another tree, if possible, and then climbs the leaner (or swings to it), attaching ropes at different heights to secure the leaner. Then he tops it and as he comes down we leapfrog the securing ropes, he sections it all the way down.


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## Adkpk (Aug 18, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I am not sure I completely understand your set up, so I will tell you how I would do it from scratch.
> 
> Set the pull line all the way up in the crotch about 4' from where the top is broken out. Maximum pulling power.
> 
> ...





"Trip the strap low", gonna need an explanation for that one. 
I think the cable is set high enough. I would climb it to take out the top but don't think the tree is stable. There's a widow maker up there too.


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## Adkpk (Aug 18, 2008)

Groundman One said:


> We've done trees like that where the climber ties off in another tree, if possible, and then climbs the leaner (or swings to it), attaching ropes at different heights to secure the leaner. Then he tops it and as he comes down we leapfrog the securing ropes, he sections it all the way down.



Sounds like more work than I need to do on this tree. Not much going on in the top.


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## Adkpk (Aug 18, 2008)

In the first pic you can see the cable on the left side of the pic. It is set 3/4 up in the tree.


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## Groundman One (Aug 18, 2008)

Adrpk said:


> Sounds like more work than I need to do on this tree. Not much going on in the top.



Possibly. But we're stuck on our methods. I'm not saying it's better the way we do it, only that it's better for us. It's what we're used to.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 18, 2008)

Adrpk said:


> "Trip the strap low", gonna need an explanation for that one.
> I think the cable is set high enough. I would climb it to take out the top but don't think the tree is stable. There's a widow maker up there too.




I just mean to cut the holding strap below your bore cut that has the wedges in it.


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## Adkpk (Aug 19, 2008)

*My bad*

Forgot the most important pic.







Nails, I was picturing a different bore cut when I read your post. So I looked it up. I am thinking after you see the lean on this tree towards the house you might change your mind on the bore cut. 

Imo I need to get the tree to come over some before releasing the hinge. Hence the need to anchor either side to keep it from going to the right (bridge hazard) or the left (hanger) into the lean (house). 

Climbing it seems a risk because I really don't know why it is in decline. Just know most of the branches are dead and seemingly died slowly and progressively over a long period of time. Doesn't help that the roots are rotting either. :bang: 

Climbing it form another tree is a possibility. There is beach within reach but it would need some work to clear some branches. There are only two live branches left in the top of the oak and don't see them as hanging up. The path I chose for it to come down is clear and puts it where I won't have to move it if the wood is good enough to slab. 

This is my opinion, I posted to get advice from the pro's. Both on the stability of the tree and the fall.


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## masiman (Aug 19, 2008)

I just did two similar to this last week.

In both cases I set up a 2:1 with my tree puller. I climbed and set a block. I tied the pulling rope to a tree, ran it to the block in the tree being pulled and back down to a redirect block (to get us out of the way of where we were pulling the tree to. The puller was set up on another tree. I climbed about 2/3 up on each tree, but depending on how much tree there is and the limit of your pulling system you can vary that.

We put some tension on the tree but not a whole lot to avoid splitting. I cut my notch. I then did a plunge cut, again to reduce the chance of a barber chair. I also left a fairly thick hinge to ensure I had stability of the butt. On one of the trees I also stuck in wedges on the plunge as a backup to the puller. We took a little more tension before releasing the strap and then I released it.

In both cases, there were no problems or things that I could think of to do different.

The only part I did not like was that my block and whoopie were coming down with the tree and could be damaged. I did have the advantage in that I was falling toward the uphill, so the fall was not as far or fast.

The 2:1 made pulling it over slower, but alot easier to do. When they start to get vertical pulling becomes alot easier.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 19, 2008)

The lean to the house will not matter if you leave a good hinge, pretension the line and put in some wedges. When the strap is tripped the tree should not move, until you go to pull on it.

Wait a minute here, are you pulling directly opposite the lean or 90 degrees to the lean?


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## Adkpk (Aug 19, 2008)

Directly opposite the lean.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 19, 2008)

Then I stand by my advice.


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## pdqdl (Aug 19, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Then I stand by my advice.



It's good advice, take it.

I personally would not work quite so hard on the setup. 3/4 up the tree gives a HUGE mechanical advantage to pull a tree over with. 1000 lbs of force 30' up a tree puts 30,000 lbs of torque to work in the direction you want the tree to go. A car pulling a tree over is usually overkill or poorly planned.

I usually just rig similar to Nails suggestions, tension the rope pretty good, notch to about 1/2, then back cut until the tree goes the right direction. His directions are probably the right way to do a really large tree, but that doesn't look that big a tree.

It does look like you will strip some branches on neighboring trees when it comes down. Are you ready for that to happen ?


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## Adkpk (Aug 19, 2008)

How much of a hinge for that size tree. 

This is the cut you mean?
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/278681/tree_felling_with_chain_saw_bore_cut_demo/

And when you say cut the strap low. I don't get the low part either. You mean cut right below the bore and leave some holding wood so the tree has something to sit on while I walk to the come along?


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## Adkpk (Aug 19, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> It does look like you will strip some branches on neighboring trees when it comes down. Are you ready for that to happen ?



The dead man is directly behind me. Meaning the tree will fall right to where I am taking the picture. It looks pretty clear to me. The beach is in front or the oak. Plus I don't have spikes. I can't see taking out those branches without them not to mention the other dead branches and the widow maker. I just need to get him on the ground, I'll beat on him there. :greenchainsaw:


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 19, 2008)

Yes, the cut in the video is mostly correct. Don't do the shallow face bore he does, you want your hinge as strong as you can get it to fight side weight pulling on the hinge during the fall. He just did that so he wouldn't have fiber pull on a saleable butt log.

The low trip is standard practice on a bore cut. You will want to trip it lower than your bore cut ,I would suggest 1-4", so you are under your wedges. The tree will be sitting on your wedges, also being held up by the slightly pretensioned line, and the strap will not break until you pull on the tree, the break will be vertical, end grain is what I call it. Make sure your strap cut is deep enough to allow the end grain break, I go a little bit past my bore cut. Your end result should look like this, not quite those proportions though.

l 
>-_
l

Oh, BTW, unlike the guy in the video, make sure you sharpen your chain before going to work, lol.


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## Adkpk (Aug 20, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Yes, the cut in the video is mostly correct. Don't do the shallow face bore he does, you want your hinge as strong as you can get it to fight side weight pulling on the hinge during the fall. He just did that so he wouldn't have fiber pull on a saleable butt log.
> 
> The low trip is standard practice on a bore cut. You will want to trip it lower than your bore cut ,I would suggest 1-4", so you are under your wedges. The tree will be sitting on your wedges, also being held up by the slightly pretensioned line, and the strap will not break until you pull on the tree, the break will be vertical, end grain is what I call it. Make sure your strap cut is deep enough to allow the end grain break, I go a little bit past my bore cut. Your end result should look like this, not quite those proportions though.
> 
> ...



I'm gonna nail this sucka! Got ya Nails. I won't be back there with a saw until at least next week. I am not sure if I have anything but milling chain for my 66, might have to order one. 
I am still debating whether to climb and limb it for extra insurance. 




Nailsbeats said:


> Oh, BTW, unlike the guy in the video, make sure you sharpen your chain before going to work, lol.



Right.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 20, 2008)

Sounds good, just let me know how you do.


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## Adkpk (Aug 23, 2008)

*No biggy*

Had nothing to do Friday so I climbed the oak and lightened the top up a bit and removed any wood that might get hung up. Sad excuse for a treeguy but I would have chunked it down some but only had my 191 with me. The second pic is what I do during the day.  Terracing and general outdoor beautification. :kilt:


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## rbtree (Aug 23, 2008)

Good thread, good advice.

Assuming the tree is quite dead, it may not have much integrity/strength in the hinge holding wood. Thus, your idea of two hold lines at 45 degrees each to the intended lay is good insurance. Any rope will work. I think what you meant is that you didn't want to use your climb lines for this purpose, which is of course wise......prolly wouldn't hurt them, though.


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## Adkpk (Aug 25, 2008)

Set my two climbing ropes  today at 45% angles as anchor points. Went to start the saw and remembered I bought the drill to test the core. Not much wood in the trunk. About 3" maybe 4. but that leaves 10-15 of rot. I saw it on the bit. 
What I'm thinking is bring the winch down from upstate and rig as I said in the beginning and pull it over without cutting till I get it to come over enough. 
Any advise is appreciated. Thanks guys.


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## 2FatGuys (Aug 25, 2008)

Do NOT try to force the tree over with a winch without following all of the good advice you have gotten regarding proper hinging and cutting. Pulling it hard enough to force it over without cutting may cause structural failure where you least expect it, which could lead to disastrous results. If you do not feel confident making the proper controlling cuts as outlined by Nails (and others), then call a pro and let them put it on the ground for you. Safety should ALWAYS be your #1 concern. Nobody here will think less of you for admitting your limits and calling in someone that could teach you how to handle future situations....


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## Adkpk (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks, fatguy. I just got an email from the customer to hold off until the arborist looks at it. 

I never cut a hollow tree before. Leaners yes. But I have no experience with hollow trees and with its position I won't cut it without the knowledge of what to do if it does something unpredictable. 

I'll keep you posted on the outcome.


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## 2FatGuys (Aug 25, 2008)

Adrpk said:


> Thanks, fatguy. I just got an email from the customer to hold off until the arborist looks at it.
> 
> I never cut a hollow tree before. Leaners yes. But I have no experience with hollow trees and with its position I won't cut it without the knowledge of what to do if it does something unpredictable.
> 
> I'll keep you posted on the outcome.



Stay smart and stay safe...


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## pdqdl (Aug 26, 2008)

Adrpk said:


> ... hold off until the arborist looks at it.
> 
> ...



I'm feeling much more relaxed about that tree already.


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## capetrees (Aug 26, 2008)

Again, maybe I look at the glass half full but if its standing, I can't imagine a tree that big is about to fallover so I don't see the danger in climbing the thing and taking it down piece by piece. You've already been in the tree from your post so why not go again with a bigger saw? All this talk about bore cuts and back cuts and ropes and come alongs is all great but it doesn't seem too tough to me from where I'm sitting. Good luck though!


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## Adkpk (Aug 26, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I'm feeling much more relaxed about that tree already.


 
I rep ya for that if I could pdqdl, thanks 



capetrees said:


> Again, maybe I look at the glass half full but if its standing, I can't imagine a tree that big is about to fallover so I don't see the danger in climbing the thing and taking it down piece by piece. You've already been in the tree from your post so why not go again with a bigger saw? All this talk about bore cuts and back cuts and ropes and come alongs is all great but it doesn't seem too tough to me from where I'm sitting. Good luck though!



Your absolutely right. It is stable enough to climb. Money, my inexperience and the arborist giving a cheaper price a year ago to fall it and leave it is why. I can't explain all the stupid details but trust me I'm cool where I'm at with that tree for now. 

I got some money for what I did so far so I'm covered. My brother has a friend who wants me to cut a tree down. The deal is for him to buy me a pair of spikes to do the job. I am still at the pruning dead wood and learning the ropes. Not in a rush to takedowns. And don't ever plan to get into the business full time. This job popped up and I gave it a good go but the risk is too high to continue. But if it's still there next week I might. :chainsawguy: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## pdqdl (Aug 26, 2008)

Most accidents are caused by ignorance, equipment failure, or risky behavior. It sounds to me like you are doing your best to avoid all three.

Make sure you watch the tree come down, and give us a report. We will want details about how it went and what you learned, and whether the advice presented here was followed, or some other method was used.


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## Adkpk (Aug 28, 2008)

*snooze you loose*

I got to the tree first. Looks like worst case scenario. It started to bust out before I finished cutting. It got sloppy but I got it down in the landing zone. I'll get my money cause when the customer saw what shape it was in and I mentioned the risk I took he ponied up. The difference was not much anyway. And I think the arborist was going to leave it. I might too, what's it called a dirty tree. That sucker was real dirty. Hope the customer doesn't think I took a dump in the yard.


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## Climbing Cutter (Aug 29, 2008)

Good work


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 29, 2008)

Hey, hey, got er' down, nice! You knew that center was shot when you bored it right? You can see the dirt on the bark right by your bore cut, there's your sign. Should have put some trucker straps above and below the cut at that point. Speed helps when pulling those rotten dogs over, like a truck, it doesn't have as much time to split six ways to Sunday before it's committed to the lay.

You cut it perfectly, I would have left a little less hinge but nonetheless. Really nice job on the cuts and getting it down, made me proud!

One more thing, I would not have went that deep with the notch. When you need to pull something opposite the lean that far you want a shallower notch. That way you don't have so much of the tree cut off when you start on the backcut. This is one of the times to sway from the 1/3 rule and go less.


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## Climbing Fool (Aug 30, 2008)

Phew it's on the ground. Yay. Kinda like steering around the iceberg instead of taking a course adjustment to avoid the icepack altogether. After years in the game and hundreds of takedowns in very tight spaces I can honestly say I have never needed to resort to the methods used and supported(?) in this post.

My business credo is quite simple, everyone goes home safe and nothing gets broken. In line with those principles for anyone reading this particular thread that there was a much safer option for removal which was touched on briefly but simply not explored. I would have climbed the closest tree, fixed my lifeline through a cambian saver, and then spurred the tree to be removed and reduced it one piece at time. The alternate fixing for the lifeline allows for a safe exit should the worst occur and gives greater stability in the tree than simply using flip lines alone. If you really want to go the whole hog rig a line parallel to the ground from two adjacent trees and prussic down from that line. If you do not wish to "spur" the adjacent living trees then insert your lifeline attached to a stringline from a bigshot. The bottom line is that on this occasion the method of takedown was NOT the safest option. 

If your customer is not willing to pay for the safest method of removal then they should not be your customer.

One further point that is ABSOLUTELY critical. Never, ever ever ever ever ever ever ever use your lifeline for ANYTHING but your lifeline.

Last point. Honest. The very last one. Did I understand you correctly Adrpk? You do not own a pair of climbing spurs? For real? Perhaps I lost something in translation because we use different names for the same items on this side of the Pacific. Please tell me I was mistaken........


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## Adkpk (Aug 30, 2008)

Ok went I posted my last post I was a little whacked out from work that day. I learned alot from this takedown. Firstly I want to thank Nails for possibly saving my well being, I owe you. And rb for backing up his advise gave me the confidence to do the job. 
I learned a lot from this tree. I've never felled a hollow tree before. I've gone over and over in my mind how it could have been different but I think I nailed it. Ya, truckers straps but who thought. Spike it from another tree, ya but what if it falls and you get stretched into two peices cause you can't get to your knife fast enough to cut your lanyard? 
I said I didn't have spikes because I wasn't sure if they were tree spikes. Now you guys can verify, are they? They worked, I need to punch some new holes to get them to fit tighter. I see why loggers boots have big heels now. 
I tested the tree by tightening the cable with the come along until it would pull no more then released the tension and pulled on both sides of the tree with my line. The tree wasn't going to fall over with my weight. But what I realized after taking out the top to give it a clear path to fall in was the top was hollow too. :bang: I don't always put my life in the hands of the almighty but then again I can remember a few times :monkey: and now this episode goes on the list. 
Being the person who was aware of the danger of this tree to the home owners I thought only to get it down fast at this point. The arborist who they use is like, real slow. So I put the money aside and did it myself. 
The cut would have worked perfect as you can see. But when the trunk cracked out, as in the third pic, I found it necessary to run to the john, just kidding, to run to the come along to get the tree to lean away form the house. (Then of course I had to run back to get a pic, dahhh.) Then with the climbing line in the top of the tree I pulled it over. Fell a little to the left of the landing zone because the one branch I left in it turned it a little but all in all it was a job, well done, maybe but it's down and I am a day smarter. 
One more thing, I got 100% on the online sample ISA test anybody know if this has any validity or do I need to buy the book to study more to pass the test? Thanks again Nails and rb and the rest of you guys, arboristsite rocks!


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## Climbing Fool (Aug 30, 2008)

Yes, that is what we call "spurs" in Australia.

I understand you believe you removed the tree correctly, my point is simply that it was not done as safely as possible. As a maxim for arborwork, "safety above all other considerations", will allow you to have a long and enjoyable career in what, in Australia at least, is the second most dangerous profession in the country.

My point about price was simply to outline that in MY experience, most accidents are caused by cost cutting measures. If you don't need to cut costs, you are almost always safer.

Keep on swingin.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 31, 2008)

Plenty to learn there. There was nothing textbook about that tree. Much respect for taking on the challenge and finnishing strong. Study, learn, and retain it for the next one. Experience is priceless.


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## Climbing Fool (Jan 19, 2009)

Just reread this old thread and was gobsmacked by the arrogant reply I made. Man I felt like smacking that idiot in the mouth, then I realised it would have hurt my hand AND my head!

There was a lot of good information in this thread and having reread it, when the tree leans toward the property or a potential target, blocking it down may do as much or more damage as cleaning the stick then scarfing as directed.

Sorry I came across as such a self-righteous ass. Good work. Well done.


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## randyg (Jan 20, 2009)

*Why You Back Tracking?*



Climbing Fool said:


> Just reread this old thread and was gobsmacked by the arrogant reply I made. Man I felt like smacking that idiot in the mouth, then I realised it would have hurt my hand AND my head!
> 
> There was a lot of good information in this thread and having reread it, when the tree leans toward the property or a potential target, blocking it down may do as much or more damage as cleaning the stick then scarfing as directed.
> 
> Sorry I came across as such a self-righteous ass. Good work. Well done.



A little arrogant perhaps, but would not go so far as to say "a lot of good information in this thread" but rather, a lot of "missed" information. I was cutting like crazy back in Aug when this thread started, and first read it today. At least two pics in the first post show obvious signs of rot and bug crumbs, yet no one warned of "hollow tree potential". And all this talk about the bore cut and then cutting the strap low to prevent barberchair?????? If you are cutting a leaner and intending to fell it in the direction of the lean yes, BUT THIS GUY IS FELLING OPPOSITE THE LEAN. And then I see the pic near the end with 3 felling wedges sticking out of three different cuts???? Lookin like arbor-puncture or something, no wonder she blew apart like that. The "good work", "well done" and "thanks" for getting this one safely on the ground should go to God, not advise from A.S. members. Adkpk, I am glad you got it down safely, sorry you did not receive better advise. 

OK, you can beat me up now...
randy


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## John Ellison (Jan 21, 2009)

I agree with you randyg. Haven't replyed to this thread because it seems like all of my posts lately have been bore cut bashing.

If it had a heavy head (favorable) lean the bore and release would have been the way to do it IMO. But pulling it against the lean is not the time to use the bore and release. It is a fragile tree, I would want it to go over as smooth and easy as possible. If the back cut would have been started normally, you would know almost immediately if you needed more or less tension on the pull rope. You should not be getting any sudden forward movement as you might if your rope tension is not right and you cut the strap in the back when doing a bore and release.


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## pdqdl (Jan 21, 2009)

It looks to me like it was broken off with too much pull on the rope. You need to cut them off to a hinge before you step on the gas.

What were you pulling with, and how big a rope were you using?


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## Adkpk (Jan 26, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> It looks to me like it was broken off with too much pull on the rope. You need to cut them off to a hinge before you step on the gas.
> 
> What were you pulling with, and how big a rope were you using?




Half inch rope and with thy bare hands.


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## pdqdl (Jan 26, 2009)

*Oh My!*

Well ! 

I guess that excludes too much pull, unless you're really a BAAD tree cutter.


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