# Teaching: Anyone elses thoughts or experiences



## KenJax Tree (Mar 30, 2013)

Most kids today are just plain lazy.


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## Wazzu (Mar 30, 2013)

I can sympathize with this. I am only 35 but the whole computer game craze bypassed me, by choice. Most young people only know how to "hang out", play computers, etc., it is not within their frame of reference that you may have to wake up early, use a little muscle, and possibly get dirty to get by in this life. Most of the teenage boys I see are what I would consider lazzy, goof offs and &ussies. I help coach at my sons wrestling club and I see it even there! During warm ups we were doing sets of push-ups and we had H.S. kids just laying there or quitting after one set of 20-30. J!C! I am 240 lbs and I was doing more than these slim kids. 

I think kids get conditioned into thinking that somebody is going to just pay them a living to F-around on the computer all day. My neighbor is a 75 year old lady who has her daughter, SIL, 10 year old grand daughter and 15 year old grand son living with her. Do you think they would mow the grass in the summer? Hell no, they pay a crew of Mexi's to come cut the damn grass.


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## KenJax Tree (Mar 30, 2013)

Wazzu said:


> I can sympathize with this. I am only 35 but the whole computer game craze bypassed me, by choice. Most young people only know how to "hang out", play computers, etc., it is not within their frame of reference that you may have to wake up early, use a little muscle, and possibly get dirty to get by in this life. Most of the teenage boys I see are what I would consider lazzy, goof offs and &ussies. I help coach at my sons wrestling club and I see it even there! During warm ups we were doing sets of push-ups and we had H.S. kids just laying there or quitting after one set of 20-30. J!C! I am 240 lbs and I was doing more than these slim kids.
> 
> I think kids get conditioned into thinking that somebody is going to just pay them a living to F-around on the computer all day. My neighbor is a 75 year old lady who has her daughter, SIL, 10 year old grand daughter and 15 year old grand son living with her. Do you think they would mow the grass in the summer? Hell no, they pay a crew of Mexi's to come cut the damn grass.



You just summed up my post


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## ArtB (Mar 30, 2013)

_only 20 footers and 8 inches dia. His words were he could push those over they weren't real trees_

Interesting thread, having 'lived' in Scotland for a few weeks at a time every few months from 1999 to 2006. 

Recall overhearing hearing a young 'man' on a train from Linlithgow to Glasgow discuss why he was 'better off' not working - gov. 'largess' (re: - sent by the labour exchange) 

No idea how Scottish unemployment/welfare works, but may be a main reason for your experiences - guys just needing to say they showed up for a job? 

In a different vein, the 7-9 YO grandkids can fell an 8" alder in about 1/2 hour with a small hatchet - if the first guy you discussed could 'push those over', maybe you should have started him out with a 10 ounce (0.28 kG) hatchet, he probably could have handled that <G>. Perhaps he expected to be paid to just watch you for a few weeks to 'learn'? 

I happened to be in Edinburgh in the fall of 2001 and participated in the March on The Mound. Met 2 older gentlemen and sat with them on the train back out to Linlithgow discussing current events - even 12 years ago they decried the lack of work ethiic of the younger generations in the Lothians, sounds like youthful sloth even spread to the Highlands in the last decade?

PS: Posted during time the previous grandkid and computer coment made. 13 YO GS just finished moving 2 cu yards of dirt I could not get to with the loader against the back foundation wall of a house we are building. Had a hard time getting him to get to it as the computer games, as said, are all the craze - however, mommy and daddy took away his computer time as he got a B- on his latest grade card. They can work if they are on computer restrictions!


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## northmanlogging (Mar 30, 2013)

My teaching method is simple but effective,

Start with the easy stuff, pulling chokers, chasing on the landing, bumping knots etc... give em plenty of supervision and make it clear that questions are a good thing.

Show em how its done, I.E. do it yourself the first time, turn em loose on it for a while, then when the plan changes ask em what would they do? If its a good response you have a keeper, if its a EH i don't know... well...

Next step once they get the basics is to stand by and watch for awhile, grunt and cough and and clear my throat in a pointed way fallowed by "I wouldn't do that..." when you notice them doing something wrong, most times this trick works really good make the person stop and think about what it is they are about to do wrong without simply giving them the answer. People learn better when they figure it out themselves. (note I've found that hollering and screaming does not teach anything other than how to holler and scream back...)

Eventually they stop coming to me with questions... until they get some weird stuff that is just plain crazy... then I usually have to ask questions too...

The big thing is it takes a little patience... on both sides. John Q rookie isn't going to jump out of the crummy knowing exactly what to do at all times, Hel there probably scared poo-less (at least they should be...) 

I've said before in other threads that there are only a handful of kids that I have worked with that have a chance, I think part of that is that the rest of them have been burned by crap jobs flipping burgers etc. with even crappier bosses so when I ask them to do something (notice I asked) they instantly think why should I... Most of the honest thinking jobs have been removed by computers, so all people are good at doing anymore is repetition for 8-10 hours a day... so when they come talk to me be it machining or logging, and I ask them how would they do it, they really don't know cause they have never had an original thought. 

I'll stop ranting now... for a little while anyway


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## kentishman (Mar 31, 2013)

I've had a few work experience people in the past come out with me for several weeks. Mostly from a local ish college, studying forestry and they have to do some work experience for their course. They tend to have just done their CS30/31 (qualifications you legally need here to use a chainsaw for monetary gain, 30 is cross cutting and 31 is felling small trees, up to 15" dbh). For some reason I ended up mostly with older students, 30+. They start off stacking wood (I do short wood cutting and forwarder) and hand burning of top when that was a thing. To me, you have to learn to walk in a wood, picking up your feet, not tripping over, and getting the feel of the wood. Then I'd move them on to a bit of cutting and by the end they could be doing their own bit without much supervision. This is with the good ones!

One more normal student age guy quit after a day, claiming it was too painful! Years ago I did a lot of bundles of sapling birch for racecourse jumps, and carrying them 50 yards or so was too much for him, they were digging into his side or something. Another guy was 50ish, too old to start doing this full time I'd say, and he wasn't interested at all in learning, just needed his work experience box ticked off. I taught him nothing, barely spoke to him, just used him for donkey work and gave him a very low score on his evaluation, for turning up for work experience for me not wanting to learn anything about what I do, when I could have been teaching someone who was interested and might have come to work in the industry (which round here, like most places I think, is nearly all older guys who got into it in better times in the 70s and 80s).

So a mixed bag. If someone wants to learn and can pick something up after being told once I want to teach them. If not stop wasting my time!


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## slowp (Mar 31, 2013)

This story was told to me. 

There was a thinning/fire crew and for the first time, they hired a couple of girls to be on the crew. Of course, we women are not expected to be able to run a chainsaw for very long by most guys. These girls were competitive swimmers and one was the daughter of a logger. They started thinning alongside the boys and boys being boys were not about to let any girl outdo them. According the the foreman, the girls were getting as much, if not more production than the guys, but overall, his crew had never thinned so many acres. He was going to have a mixed crew from then on, because of the increase.

One place where I worked, when a ATV couldn't be used, two young women who were long distance runners were the lighters on controlled burns. They could move and had the stamina. 

Perhaps you should recruit some of us from the other 50% of the population??


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## timberland ts (Mar 31, 2013)

For the last fifteen yrs ive been teaching newbies. Ive gotten pretty good at weeding out the warm bodies. When i worked for a big company out of six crews we went through 23 guys in a year. Most worked a week and left they met there probation or unemployment requirement. There are people who what to work and learn. These are the ones you teach and explain things to the others you try to make productive and not get hurt. Like others have said startthem slow and try to spend the time. You want someone who wants a carrer not just a pay check.


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## Oldtimer (Mar 31, 2013)

Impossible to teach those who are sure they already know.


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## HuskStihl (Mar 31, 2013)

slowp said:


> Perhaps you should recruit some of us from the other 50% of the population??



I would, if I could find any women who would brush their teeth and shower once in a while, I mean honestly, men can't have a total monopoly on personal hygiene:msp_wink:


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## McCulloch1-52 (Mar 31, 2013)

templar said:


> Over the last year I have taught (or tried to help, show and advise) 3 people. The first guy was a young lad (sent to me by the Labour exchange) who lasted til lunch the first day!!! He was under the mis leading notion that falling trees was easy (his expression was a little more colourful lol) and why did I spend a couple of hours telling him bout saws and maintenance. He was also a little upset when I let him cut only 3 trees which were only 20 footers and 8 inches dia. His words were he could push those over they weren't real trees. *When his Dad came to pick him up he listened to his son and then asked me why I'd done the things I'd done. He also said he was a professional* and I was only a wood cutter so his son deserved the best.
> 
> 
> I only answered well I got my methods
> ...



If he was a professional why did he not teach him? :msp_confused:


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## jrcat (Mar 31, 2013)

I started with a shovel and a hand saw in my hands. It took alot of years of shoveling and cutting before my father would let me run our little backhoe or a chainsaw. Then when I was out of school it was back to shoveling for a dirt contractor for 2 years before I was allowed to run an excavator. 15 years later I still have much to learn and I am the first to admit to it. Kids (and even some adults) these days figure that an income is owed to them just because they happen to exist on this earth, not earned. I have 2 young daughters and they help with chores and the like around home simply because they have to. I reward their hard work with certain things they would like. The more they want the harder they have to work for it and they know this even at 8 and 9 years old.


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## jrcat (Mar 31, 2013)

I went to a school where 90% of the students there had parents that made 6 digit figures for income. My parents were lucky to make half of what they made. One thing I have noticed the media speaks of is "the ever widening income gap". HELLO that gap has been there for years. It has just recently had more attention brought to it. Now with those things being said. I have also noticed that a majority of the people I went to school with are either still well to do or utter and complete failures in both life and with money. The ones that did well ... their parents made them earn their keep and taught them the value of money and work. The other group..well they spent their money on toys and nose candy. Even still some families with little income have trouble with the younger generations not wanting to do anything. Its a sad state of affairs. 

I recently went to my local branch of FORCON. They gave me a 2 hour lecture on how there is very little, (almost none) new blood coming into the forestry industry here in western ny and northwest pa. People that want to work are few and far between.


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## slowp (Mar 31, 2013)

Let's look at some facts. Wages are the same as they were in the 1980s. There is little job security--at least in these parts. No pay during high fire danger, no pay during a big storm, and threats of losing more ground due to environmental concerns.

If you aren't on a piece of equipment, the work can be brutal. Yet, few outfits offer any benefits. Do you? 
There used to be large companies with union crews in the woods. No more. 

I live in a timber community. Most parents, who care, encourage their kids to go onto more schooling or some kind of training. They don't want them in the logging industry right out of high school because it can be a dead end or they end up on disability. One family, with deep roots in logging, is requiring their kids to get college degrees. Then they can decide what to do.

This article is a good one. I was trying to look for one that was written on changes that folks need to make to attract and keep today's younger generation on the job. It was in Logger's World a few years ago. 

Instead of slamming the younger generation, maybe you need to change the way you treat them. Read on...


TimberLine Magazine Article - CASUALTIES OF MODERNITY: Logging Companies Strive to Replace Their Aging Workforce


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## jrcat (Mar 31, 2013)

Well I apologize as I am not trying to bash the younger generations. In NY we have what is called GOL Game Of Logger training. Which is meant to train younger loggers the ins and outs of safety and to keep older guys trained in new techniques. New York Logger Training - NYLT Workshops

I was merely trying to add my view on what I see with some of the younger generation not all. To add to the troubles loggers face (at least here in NY) it is getting very cost prohibitive to be in the business anymore. Comp rates of $90 per $100. That is INSANE. I would not want my daughters to go right into this field without seeing the outside world first. There is more to offer than logging. But if this industry is what they choose then so be it. I will say that video games, computers, and tv are not their main focus in life, nor will I allow it to be.


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 31, 2013)

templar said:


> As to benefits hmmmm those days are some what gone and I suspect will never return. That said why should anyone be offered lucrative benefits until they prove they are willing to and can do the job no matter what it be. If I'd ever turned up with the attitude of some (not all) youngsters I'd have got a size 12 in my rear end and had a long walk home.



Seems to me, from reading the article Slowp posted, that it's not just the young guys not getting any benefits. Busting your ass for the same pay for 25 years and few benefits isn't an attractive option unless you really love what you do. Couple that with an older generation who love to harp on about how kids these days take everything for granted and don't know how to work hard and where's the incentive to gt into forestry?


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## jrcat (Mar 31, 2013)

I cut and skid some on the side of my "day job". I also build roads and clean up logging roads and landings on my spare time with my little TD8E dresser. I am trying to get into logging full time. It's just very costly , but it's what I love. Being out in the woods. There are a lot of jobs out there that do not offer health insurance and thousands upon thousands of people in this country and other countries will never know what it is like to have it. The company I work for offers it, but I choose not to have it. My daughters have it and I pay for it every month. My current employer invested in me rather significantly to train me to operate and maintain our "fleet" of morbark chippers. I give it my all when I am on the job and I am grateful for the chances I am given. It is not to often that one gets a chance to operate and maintain half million dollar machines. Logging and forestry is a labor of love and a narrow niche to be in and sometimes a very slippery slope. Man or Woman , if you love it then there is opportunities abound if you are willing to work.


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## jrcat (Mar 31, 2013)

Of all people to suggest this to someone, My lawyer told me I should take a job at SKF or the local Cummins plant just to have benefits. but the starting pay at either place is dismal, unless you have a degree or 2 and many years of experience in one particular field. The job market is dismal as a whole. And it is not just logging that has either seen a decrease in wages or stayed the same for many years. My grandfather retired from conrail and tried to get my brother and myself into the rail road and meet with little success. The starting pay was horrible and the years it would take to earn even a fraction of what my grandfather did was shocking as well. That was even if would could get in. As for myself now I am taking a layoff for a month as I would not go to alabama with one of our chippers. The money was good....very good infact but I will not leave my daughters for any major length of time.


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 31, 2013)

You're right, it certainly isn't a new thing. I just feel it's sometimes overplayed, which is hardly ideal in a industry with an average age in the forties that is struggling to attract new blood. I'm not saying that the new kids should be pandered to, there's a bit of an attitude shift needed on both sides i reckon.

As for working in something that you don't like, plenty of people do that. 40-50 hours a week of the daily grind so that you can spend the weekend doing what you enjoy seems to work just fine for many


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 31, 2013)

templar said:


> Weekend lol just asked my wife when was the last weekend we had off lol......she replied oh it was 2 weeks ago...........when we had 3 feet of snow lol



Ha I'd happily trade a weekend off for something to do at the moment. Four days off over easter doesn't exactly feel like a holiday when you're on standby and can't be more than 15 mins from the firestore. Even yesterday when it was raining :bang:


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## slowp (Mar 31, 2013)

It is common for people to stay in a job that they hate just to get the health insurance. Even moreso if somebody in the family has a condition that requires a lot of doctor visits and medication. And you can say that wages should not be important, but very few people are going to work for nothing.


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 31, 2013)

templar said:


> Yep waiting for the bleeper to go off .........that not much cop as I bet you can't really relax or get into anything cause ........murphy's law the bleeper will go



Yea last time it went off on a weekend was just after I fired up the BBQ, damn thing. There's only so many times you can mow the lawns and split the firewood in a weekend. I've caught up on about two months of several TV shows as well, bloody youth and all that


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## jrcat (Mar 31, 2013)

I actually find it to be kind of nice. My phone is not having convulsions and I can think for a change lol. Now to fight off the boredom. SO i've been taking out all of the sumac that is taking over any open areas in my woods .


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 31, 2013)

Let's have a crack at going back on track with this thread.
To work in the bush here in any capacity (logging, thinning, pruning etc) you are supposed to have General Requirements. It's basically a 1 day course which covers the most basic things - PPE requirements, personal health and safety, how to operate a radio, what the bush code is, and a bunch of other things I can no longer remember. It's hardly rocket science but it goes some way to improving the chances of the new guy not being completely clueless.

I reckon any sort of preparation before the actual work begins would be beneficial


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## StihlKiwi (Apr 1, 2013)

templar said:


> I agree with that if newbies have gone thru some kind of prep/awareness training then I would certainly feel more comfortable that they at least know what to wear and have at least a rudimentary grasp of health and safety issues.
> 
> 
> Maybe courses like that could be more interesting as I do feel some switch off totally on those courses



That's exactly what its aimed at, ensuring the basics are there. Nothing can replace actual work and on the job training but a heads-up before you start is never a bad thing.

What sort of on-the job training is available in the US? Here you work toward certificates in aspects forestry, even breaker-outs (choker-setters) and pruners gain tickets for what they do. While I'm not a huge fan of some of these bull#### qualifications (recently had to do an ATV couse which I didn't enjoy) I think it helps build a bit of ownership in what you do, and weeds out those who don't give a damn - many employers look to these as a minimum standard.

Here's an NZ example: National Certificate in Forestry from Forest Industries Training and Education Council (FITEC)


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## StihlKiwi (Apr 1, 2013)

I should clarify that while all of the qualifications etc are available and desirable to employers, there are many opportunities for work in the bush without them. Being 'in training' is enough for you to be able to do anything from drag chokers around to driving a yarder, and I'm not 100% sure but I think adequate past experience is acceptable as well in some cases - some of the guys in my office have fought forest fires for years without having to deal with the wajax course I was put through.


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## slowp (Apr 1, 2013)

In our state, you need to have a valid First Aid card and a CPR card. I think. Maybe not.


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## jerrycmorrow (Apr 1, 2013)

templar said:


> Sorry should have explained.........his professional was wearing a suit and tie lol.......He was trying to make out he was eh well I was just a redneck dumbass and he was my superior lol



In this guys case professional translates to boor. I can tell you from experience as a "professional" that even his peers prolly think he's a boor. Some of us aren't though. When I was a young construction engineer the guy that taught me the most about building retaining walls and bridge abutments literally had to sign with an "x" when they brought pay checks around. Course it probly helped that I grew up poor by a hardworking man who could have been a professional if he didn't have three sons to raise and provide for. Waited too late to go for his edgimecation. Just sayin
There's still gooduns out there. You just gotta look for em and then compete for em when you find em


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## madhatte (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm in Corvallis this week for OSU Variable Probability Sampling training. I'm only one day of five in, and already I'm finding that I have to unlearn some things to wrap my head around what's being presented. I can't stress enough: ALWAYS BE TRAINABLE.


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2013)

madhatte said:


> I can't stress enough: ALWAYS BE TRAINABLE.



Yup. Stay up or get left behind. That probably has more validity in your profession than mine but as fast as things are changing (and as slow as I think anymore) it's a full time struggle.

I've also found that a lot of times the more seasoned (read as _old_) guys get left out of the new information loop because everybody just assumes that the seasoned guys already know everything. I wish.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 1, 2013)

Some old dogs can be taught new tricks... some are just to stubborn and think they already know everything, cause they have seen it all. But from my experience most of the old guys I've worked with where always up to something new, whether it worked or not is a different story. The trick is to keep looking for the better way.


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 2, 2013)

I'll just go ahead and throw my .02 in on this one. When I was 16 my first job was at McDonalds. The first five shifts we're devoted to training, and I was under constant supervision from a crew trainer for the first two weeks. Say what you want about McDonalds ( and I'm not a fan of their food) but they are masters at training and concistency. How many of you have training manuals? Or do you just throw them to the wolves and sink or swim? The more professional the trainer, the better the student.


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## RandyMac (Apr 2, 2013)

I participated in forest fire training, my job was to sort the sheep from the goats, the process was Darwinian.


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## madhatte (Apr 2, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> to sort the sheep from the goats, the process was Darwinian.



That's how Navy Nuclear works. Expect about a 50% attrition rate in the first school, another 50% in the second school, another 50% in the third, and a final 50% at sea-going commands before final Senior-In-Rate qualifications. We eat our own. Ain't pretty.


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## RandyMac (Apr 2, 2013)

madhatte said:


> That's how Navy Nuclear works. Expect about a 50% attrition rate in the first school, another 50% in the second school, another 50% in the third, and a final 50% at sea-going commands before final Senior-In-Rate qualifications. We eat our own. Ain't pretty.



No, it wasn't pretty and often caused bad feelings among those who really tried.
One of the last steps was to grab them halfway through dinner, after working all day, then a 5 mile, full gear death march to cut line on a steep hillside, for 6 hours.
I was relentless.


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## mitch95100 (Apr 2, 2013)

So is 17 and being a farm boy where i did the following-
5 in the morning doing chores
Did school
Went and cleaned calf pens
Greased bearings on tractor
Summerizied the sled
Went to town
Had dinner with g-ma
Picked up supllies from tsc
Sharpened 25 chains 
Cut a load for the boiler
Cleaned saws
Moved brush
Ate supper helped a cow calf tonight and just showered and sat down
Lazy?

Not here... im one of the few

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## mitch95100 (Apr 2, 2013)

I would love to get a tutor for felling and tree related stuff!
Feels like you have to get in trouble before you get help

I could just see it.
PAROLE OFFICER- Your going to be helping a crew move and cut brush the next 3 weeks...
Me- YES!!!!

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## northmanlogging (Apr 2, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> No, it wasn't pretty and often caused bad feelings among those who really tried.
> One of the last steps was to grab them halfway through dinner, after working all day, then a 5 mile, full gear death march to cut line on a steep hillside, for 6 hours.
> I was relentless.



How many times have you been shot at anyway?


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## mitch95100 (Apr 2, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> How many times have you been shot at anyway?



Lol
Im guessing trees fell in his general direction...

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## RandyMac (Apr 2, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> How many times have you been shot at anyway?



9 shots, three different occasions, Southern Humboldt is a rough place.


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## madhatte (Apr 2, 2013)

I bet it's _way_ safer, you know, _post-Pelosi_.


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## StihlKiwi (Apr 3, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> my job was to sort the sheep from the goats



There's a joke in there somewhere. Probably something to do with an Australian


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## madhatte (Apr 3, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> Probably something to do with an Australian



I, uh, see what you did there.


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## ArtB (Apr 3, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Navy Nuclear ...school, .



Ever meet or take a class from Cmdr Camara?


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## madhatte (Apr 3, 2013)

ArtB said:


> Ever meet or take a class from Cmdr Camara?



Name sounds awful familiar. Woulda had to be either that Sea-Returnee mustang LT in the Physics dept or one of the DIO's. I went through NNPS in '99.


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## ArtB (Apr 3, 2013)

Familiarity may have been from the name on the textbooks, as John Camara wrote some of the Navy nuclear textbooks. He retired and now working for the big bucks at the local aerospace company. Had the opportunity to work some with him at Pearl and on some other projects. 

Small world across different subjects.


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## madhatte (Apr 3, 2013)

ArtB said:


> Small world across different subjects.



Truth!


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## Jon1212 (Apr 9, 2013)

Wal67ter has been reported as a SPAMMER


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## RandyMac (Apr 9, 2013)

Jon1212 said:


> Wal67ter has been reported as a SPAMMER



this post has been reported


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## Jon1212 (Apr 9, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> this post has been reported



Can I light you on fire?


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## HuskStihl (Apr 9, 2013)

Jon1212 said:


> Can I light you on fire?



Nope! Nor madhatte or Templar, ropensaddle or northman, Two chains or Cfaller, rounder or imaginero or roberte
I owe these men, so I'll ask you to set me on fire in their place:biggrin:


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## Jon1212 (Apr 9, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Nope! Nor madhatte or Templar, ropensaddle or northman, Two chains or Cfaller, rounder or imaginero or roberte
> I owe these men, so I'll ask you to set me on fire in their place:biggrin:



LOL!!! I was referencing something our friend RandyMac said to someone recently here on AS. No offense intended.

He has a way of getting his point across in very few words. For further proof see my sig line (it was said to a member wanting to use chains, and straps on a split tree).


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## HuskStihl (Apr 9, 2013)

Jon1212 said:


> LOL!!! I was referencing something our friend RandyMac said to someone recently here on AS. No offense intended.
> 
> He has a way of getting his point across in very few words. For further proof see my sig line (it was said to a member wanting to use chains, and straps on a split tree).



I was kidding as well, I remember randy asking if he could light a gentleman on fire who asked if a saw cut better closer to the motor!
I'm feeling sappy towards the loggers (pun!) due to their recent awesomeness towards me. See the "trajectile dysfunction" thread in the logging forum for a great example of people helping an idiot, and refraining from flaming him even though well deserved. 
Keep that brain for yourself! DSS and Thomas will just break it if you let them handle it too much!


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## Jon1212 (Apr 9, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I was kidding as well, I remember randy asking if he could light a gentleman on fire who asked if a saw cut better closer to the motor!
> I'm feeling sappy towards the loggers (pun!) due to their recent awesomeness towards me. See the "trajectile dysfunction" thread in the logging forum for a great example of people helping an idiot, and refraining from flaming him even though well deserved.
> Keep that brain for yourself! DSS and Thomas will just break it if you let them handle it too much!



They are really decent to people asking "important" questions that genuinely want to learn. Someday I'll make it to a GTG of the West Coast folks. Gologit (Bob) put up a link a while back pertaining to proper felling that was really amazing.
Now that I live in Utah I don't think I'll get to use my saws much, it being a desert, and all......LOL!

Point taken on keeping The Brain for myself.


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## RandyMac (Apr 9, 2013)

Jon1212 said:


> Can I light you on fire?



can I shoot you in the ankle?


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## Jon1212 (Apr 9, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> can I shoot you in the ankle?



Depends? What caliber?


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## jrcat (Apr 9, 2013)

I shot myself threw 3 fingers with a nail gun and set my left arm on fire once. Some how the darwinian theories have skipped over me or just havent caught up with me yet. So far on my first piece of timber I have gotten on my own I cut and pulled 3600 feet in 2 half days of work. In relation to this teaching thread, I seem to be having trouble getting some of these guys in my area to give me much advice.


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## Jon1212 (Apr 9, 2013)

jrcat said:


> *I shot myself threw 3 fingers with a nail gun and set my left arm on fire once*. Some how the darwinian theories have skipped over me or just havent caught up with me yet. So far on my first piece of timber I have gotten on my own I cut and pulled 3600 feet in 2 half days of work. *In relation to this teaching thread, I seem to be having trouble getting some of these guys in my area to give me much advice.*



That sounds like a slow morning for AS member 'Genius' (Ross)..............LOL!!! His foul ups are legendary.


Just another reason why AS is so great. 


I've been in local saw shops around here to buy stuff, and they act like they're bothered to sell me parts.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 9, 2013)

jrcat said:


> I shot myself threw 3 fingers with a nail gun and set my left arm on fire once. Some how the darwinian theories have skipped over me or just havent caught up with me yet. So far on my first piece of timber I have gotten on my own I cut and pulled 3600 feet in 2 half days of work. In relation to this teaching thread, I seem to be having trouble getting some of these guys in my area to give me much advice.



You are now the competition... Don't expect any advice, especially not good advice. Some may come your way, but don't count on it. If you really get into trouble they'll be the first to help out, but its dog eat dog, and everyone is looking for a leg up.

I hate to sound cynical, just going from my own experience. Seems most guys told me "there's no money in logging" and that's about it. 

Few of the old codgers had some good advice, mostly about paying your debt off and maintaining your equipment, few good tricks for pulling logs, not much in the falling dept though...


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## jrcat (Apr 9, 2013)

Cutting saw logs and what grade a log is and where I should cut it. I got so frustrated earlier today I have these red oak on this job I was going to get some help to cut as I dont want to split them or pull out long stringers, so I just went ahead and started cutting. I figure learn by doing instead of talk or scratching me arse and looking. I made out ok I did not split any but pulled some stringers on one.


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## Byrdmando (Apr 9, 2013)

I would pay good money (if I had any) to have somebody teach me the stuff the OP is teaching. I am 40 years old and have basically learned what little I know through trial and error.


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## jrcat (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah I seem to hear that '' theres no money in logging" statement alot. The way I see it is then theres no money in anything then.. trucking , sawing, dirt work, ... heck theres no money in working for that matter. Making a living on the other hand I do believe that is still there. There is still some money to be made. What else is a younger guy supposed to do. I absolutely refuse to work a factory job or go trucking ( i have a class a) Ive been there and done that bit hauling gravel logs chips and moving equipment. I refuse to end up like my older brother who feels that working in a factory is the only safe bet, even though the last 3 he has worked for has shut down. This occupation may not make me rich and I'm not looking to be "rich". I choose to support my family on my own terms, not the terms of the corperations board members. I was told this as a child by my grandfather .. if at first you dont succeed ..redefine success.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 9, 2013)

jrcat said:


> Cutting saw logs and what grade a log is and where I should cut it. I got so frustrated earlier today I have these red oak on this job I was going to get some help to cut as I dont want to split them or pull out long stringers, so I just went ahead and started cutting. I figure learn by doing instead of talk or scratching me arse and looking. I made out ok I did not split any but pulled some stringers on one.



I've never cut hardwood saw logs(except alder and thats different)... but what the common theme is, is to get the buyer on the landing and he will tell you where to cut and how long, takes a bit of extra time, but it will save you money in the end. Just remember to yard em out in tree length or there abouts first...


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## jrcat (Apr 9, 2013)

Well one mill snubbed off as they said I need at least 10,000 feet on the landing and laid out. Which would be fine .......if I had a place to land that didnt equal the size of a postage stamp. I got a decent offer from one mill that I just might go with.(see my thread on saw logs and veneer). Last but not least... the amish mill......I called the guy this morning at 8 am.. and got his kid who insisted that his dad was getting ready to leave for the mill and could not be bothered to talk to me, even though the house is like 50 feet away from the mill . I am a bit apprehensive on my first offer ... Just like anyone else I want to get the best dollar possible. But this mill is only 8 miles away from my job and he needs the logs in the worst way and is willing to nix the trucking just to get the logs. He also told me that he will scale the logs in my presence and cut me a check on the spot, and tag my veneer logs which his next veneer sale is in 2 weeks and thats when I would get paid for those logs.


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## jrcat (Apr 9, 2013)

ooh the butts or short cut offs in the 4 to 6 foot range this guy will give a buck foot for. Does that sound ok?


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## jrcat (Apr 9, 2013)

not many of them around here. and its a buck per board foot. I will cut em for fire wood or cut the on my nieghbors little band mill maybe.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 9, 2013)

gotta know your mills, some have craptastic scalers, some are fair, some well just cause they have the best price does not mean you will get paid what its worth...

Got three of four options for me, as go to mills anyway, 

mill a is an exporter they usually post the best price, and take damned near every species, but will without fail scale yer logs at less bf

Mill b takes many of the same species of timber, usually at a lower price but they scale the logs differently so you get paid more in the end.

Mill c only takes two species (alder and cotton wood) They are close by and post good prices, the bad news is their scaler has a very long thumb, and they switched to the same method as the exporter... which means you get about 2/3s of what you where expecting to be paid... not fun (I'm tossing around the idea of not using them again)

There are by far more mills in these parts, many of them contract out DNR sales though so getting my gypo loads in is always entertaining. The rest of em are a very niche market, all one species or custom milling stuff.


Learning by doing is a tried and true method, just pay attention to your scale tickets and scale your logs before they leave. It will give you a better idea as to what went good and what went wrong, as well as giving you a good idea as to what you should be getting paid, Don't worry it will be less then what you think...it always is.


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## Gologit (Apr 9, 2013)

*jrcat*

If you get a chance and the opportunity presents itself, spend a little time with a scaler. They get vilified here and sometimes for good reason but a good scaler can point out things in logs...defect and such...that an average person might not see.

It's not good enough anymore to just send logs to the mill and hope for the best. You need to know everything you possibly can about the hows and whys of log grading. You can be the best logger ever to hit the woods but if you send in stuff that will be more expensive for the mill to cut than it's worth they're not going to pay you much.

You can buck stuff to your advantage if you know how to maximize your scale. A guy that can buck for better scale can make money.

I don't know anything about logging in your part of the country but some things are the same no matter what part of the woods you're in.

Most mill owners think that loggers are idiots...necessary idiots but idiots all the same. Don't prove them right.


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## wowzers (Apr 9, 2013)

Gologit said:


> If you get a chance and the opportunity presents itself, spend a little time with a scaler. They get vilified here and sometimes for good reason but a good scaler can point out things in logs...defect and such...that an average person might not see.
> 
> It's not good enough anymore to just send logs to the mill and hope for the best. You need to know everything you possibly can about the hows and whys of log grading. You can be the best logger ever to hit the woods but if you send in stuff that will be more expensive for the mill to cut than it's worth they're not going to pay you much.
> 
> ...



I'm in the process of getting my scaling license now, and I think back to all the logs I use to buck, and wow.


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 10, 2013)

Gologit said:


> If you get a chance and the opportunity presents itself, spend a little time with a scaler. They get vilified here and sometimes for good reason but a good scaler can point out things in logs...defect and such...that an average person might not see.
> 
> It's not good enough anymore to just send logs to the mill and hope for the best. You need to know everything you possibly can about the hows and whys of log grading. You can be the best logger ever to hit the woods but if you send in stuff that will be more expensive for the mill to cut than it's worth they're not going to pay you much.
> 
> ...



Plus one big time! Having a good bullbuck, as I've been told, can be the difference between marginality and the big bucks.... at least back in the day. 

I'll be doing some scaling this summer but mostly cruising and logging admin stuff. Helps with both cruising and making logs. I've had some training but hoping to get a bunch more. Dunno if I'll get certified by the bureau or not but we shall see. That would be cool if I was.

A good bucker needs to be a good scaler and good cruisers generally make good scalers and vise a versa. It's hard judging em when they're down & un-bucked and a helluva lot harder when they're standing! The guy that trained me on log quality was a bucker in a yard for years. I took what I had learned in school and built upon that. Hoping I can only improve on that by spending time with the scalers.

Wes


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## jrcat (Apr 10, 2013)

10 years ago before 90% of the mills in this area evaporated, some scalers where EVIL and some were really good. and it all depends on perspective too.


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## HuskStihl (Apr 10, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Few of the *old codgers *had some good advice, not much in the falling dept though...



You Sir have big, manly brass balls to suggest that Bob and RandyMac have nothing to teach you about falling:msp_biggrin:


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## HuskStihl (Apr 10, 2013)

templar said:


> I'm a thinking he meant guys round his way not Randy etc



Northman, Bob, and Randy all seem to have pretty good senses of humor. I was only jesting:wink2:


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## HuskStihl (Apr 10, 2013)

templar said:


> I know I forgot to add the lol and smiley :redface:



I should have known, but Scots tend to be a dry, mirthless lot:msp_biggrin:


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## jrcat (Apr 10, 2013)

I met a girl from scotland she was from glasgow and she was oohh sooo very pretty and smart I was in love. she came here for a week and I have to say that was a very memorable experience. She to had a dry sense of humor. I loved to make her talk just to hear her accent. Nikola was her name. Long distance relationships kinda .......suck though.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 10, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> You Sir have big, manly brass balls to suggest that Bob and RandyMac have nothing to teach you about falling:msp_biggrin:



Take'n out of context it would seem that way... What was meant was the the old farts around here,(I.E. my home etc.) some had good advice, most are dead, the rest work at boeing.

More or less everyone on here seem like good folk.

And I can guarantee that both Randy and Bob could out cut me on a regular basis, even if they had to use a walker...:biggrin:


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## Gologit (Apr 10, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Take'n out of context it would seem that way... What was meant was the the old farts around here,(I.E. my home etc.) some had good advice, most are dead, the rest work at boeing.
> 
> More or less everyone on here seem like good folk.
> 
> And I can guarantee that both Randy and Bob could out cut me on a regular basis, even if they had to use a walker...:biggrin:



 I don't use a walker. Yet. But I did try to cut with a walking cast on my leg one time. That was just a bit slow and clumsy and the side rod gave me hell when he found out. I ran loader 'til the leg healed up.

My favorite "walker" is my pickup. It has a good heater, a better radio, and cup holders.


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## roberte (Apr 11, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I don't use a walker. Yet. But I did try to cut with a walking cast on my leg one time. That was just a bit slow and clumsy and the side rod gave me hell when he found out. I ran loader 'til the leg healed up.
> 
> My favorite "walker" is my pickup. It has a good heater, a better radio, and cup holders.



Walking cast , with corks built in and kevlar wrap?


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## slowp (Apr 11, 2013)

Don't mark out trees for road right of way when taking pain pills for your injured leg. I think of it now as huckleberry habitat. :msp_smile:


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## northmanlogging (Apr 11, 2013)

I'll probably be the first one in a with a walker... gimpy leg is making it hard to walk without boots on as it is


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## slowp (Apr 11, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'll probably be the first one in a with a walker... gimpy leg is making it hard to walk without boots on as it is



Those adjustable ski pole like "hiking poles" work well. That's how I got around to mark cut trees in the road right of way. You can change the height for which side of the slope the pole is on.


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## madhatte (Apr 12, 2013)

Got me a gimpy leg right now myself. Seems I tweaked a knee in Corvallis last week. It's getting better but it's still stiff and painful. I probably look funny walking with a big ol' babylegs limp. Ah, well, I'll survive.


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## ShearHeadMS (Apr 12, 2013)

*Bloody jeans*

When I was 15 years old my community was hit by hurricane Katrina. My church's pastor was from Arkansas and had some of his old freinds come down. The community I'm in has alot of dentists and doctors, not exactly people you want to see toting a saw around when the hospital is already full of hurt people. Most of the loggers around me were already doing all they could to just clear the roads and get people out of their houses, I had only run my dads 028 sthil thus far and was very green, I can still remember having to borrow my dads knee high lineman boots because I didn't own any work boots. First day we were cutting fallen trees and leaning trees at a old woman's house. After a few from our group pinched a few saws and almost got killed by Barbour chairs the old guys from Arkansas stepped in. The one who sticks out most in my mind was a 65 year old man with a sthil 460 with a 28 inch bar, I was the youngest of the group and he pulled me aside and handed me a brand new 372 husky. All the other teens were dragging brush while I was learning how tell when trees were in binds and were the tension points were.....after week that man had me confident and educated. All I ever said was yes sir and no sir. I found myself drafted into running saws and learned from many men, I have alot of respect for the old timers! Without them I probably would still be playing video games and weigh a ton


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2013)

49% of learning is showing up and stepping up 49% is watching and listening the other 2% is realizing when your being ****ed with or lied to


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## madhatte (Apr 13, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> realizing when your being ****ed



"Lied to" is no good. 

On the other hand... if they ain't ####in' with you at least _a little_, it's a pretty good sign that they don't like you.


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## Samlock (Apr 13, 2013)

All the sudden I was offered a path which will lead to qualified teacher/instructor career. I hate the idea right now, but after 10-15 years I'll probably think different.

I hope my impatience will wear off by the years as well.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2013)

funnin around is all well and good (until someone takes it seriously then its either really fun or just sucks...) I've been lied to more times than I can count, usually by people that thought they where the boss and wanted to tell the "new guy" what to do, as a side note I ended up being their lead in a few short months... 

Most of the things I've been told that where wrong could be chalked up to plain ignorance, Much of it was so I would do something wrong and possibly get fired or reprimanded...


And last but not least, if I am not talking to you or acknowledging your presence, your better off just staying the Hel away. Chances are I don't like you or you have thrown me under the bus for something you did... I find avoidance to be better then confrontation


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2013)

Loggers have more respect for each other, a screw up in the woods could get someone killed.

The machine shops I work mon-thursday... we get all kinds through there... they hear its good money, indoors, all you have to do is keep a machine fed, and presto they know everything... Gods forbid if you threaten their comfy job with actual factual knowledge...

Part of the reason I kill trees and make big messes on the weakend is I don't have to deal with morons, well most of the time, I'm still there:msp_confused:


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## roberte (Apr 13, 2013)

templar said:


> Hey wasn't implying there was no respect etc.......I never worked inside my whole life and don't want to either ......It would drive me nuts (ok more nuts)



Well just know its a short trip


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## madhatte (Apr 14, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Loggers have more respect for each other, a screw up in the woods could get someone killed.



And foresters, and firefighters, and sailors, and really any professional in any business that means business. Which is why semi-mean humor is so important -- it separates the wannabes from the Good Ones. Those who can't take it leave (or whine to the boss and make everybody suffer for their thin skin), and those who can just dish it back. This is really what I meant in my last post.


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## RandyMac (Apr 14, 2013)

madhatte said:


> And foresters, and firefighters, and sailors, and really any professional in any business that means business. Which is why semi-mean humor is so important -- it separates the wannabes from the Good Ones. Those who can't take it leave (or whine to the boss and make everybody suffer for their thin skin), and those who can just dish it back. This is really what I meant in my last post.



wiener


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## madhatte (Apr 14, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> wiener



bring it


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## RandyMac (Apr 14, 2013)

madhatte said:


> bring it



I'll tear your ear off


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## madhatte (Apr 14, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I'll tear your ear off



I'll talk your ear off


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## RandyMac (Apr 14, 2013)

madhatte said:


> I'll talk your ear off



See you in June my lad.


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## madhatte (Apr 14, 2013)

Hell yeah. Looks like I'll be bringing a nice single-malt to class the joint up some.


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## RandyMac (Apr 14, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Hell yeah. Looks like I'll be bringing a nice single-malt to class the joint up some.



Looking forward to campfire chats


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## 056 kid (Apr 14, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> 49% of learning is showing up and stepping up 49% is watching and listening the other 2% is realizing when your being ****ed with or lied to



In some cases the 98% is getting ####ed with and the 2% is solid double triple platinum gold amalgam, diamond studded...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 14, 2013)

madhatte said:


> And foresters, and firefighters, and sailors, and really any professional in any business that means business. Which is why semi-mean humor is so important -- it separates the wannabes from the Good Ones. Those who can't take it leave (or whine to the boss and make everybody suffer for their thin skin), and those who can just dish it back. This is really what I meant in my last post.



I kinda feel bad about it but I've made coworkers break down and cry a few times... usually the young naive ones... That didn't get that I was ***king with em.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 14, 2013)

I've learned to wink, and grin... Its when I say things in a very serious manner that people take me entirely to seriously... 

Such as all them Gods ####ed logs you bucked yesterday are too short for grade, the mill wanted 13" of trim and you only left 12 1/2... then storm off and snicker.... only to swing back buy in 1/2 an hour to find em blubbering and puffy eyed, kinda ruins the whole joke...


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## jrcat (Apr 16, 2013)

I started teaching tree identification to my girl friends nephew this past weekend. He seems very eager to learn and soaked up every word I told him. He wants to learn to cut but I dont know enough myself to teach some one else to cut. Plus he is only 13. So I figured that learning what grows in our area is as good a place to start as any. My father (rip) taught me what was what at a young age. I could pick out hard/soft maple ,cherry, beech, , ash ,basswood, hemlock and countless others by the time I was 10. I never had a saw in my hands until I was 15. But I was running dozer and skidding by 12 lol. Anyway, the kid is teachable and I will do what I can for him. My small contribution I guess.


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## jrcat (Apr 16, 2013)

Templar you have exceeded your private message storage lol delete some stuff .


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## slowp (Apr 19, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Hell yeah. Looks like I'll be bringing a nice single-malt to class the joint up some.





RandyMac said:


> See you in June my lad.




I'll look for a set of socker boppers for both of youse.


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