# How much slower is spikeless climbing?



## xtremetrees (Jul 17, 2006)

Lets take a easy throwball tree say a excurrent pine at 85 feet. 
What would you say it would take you to throwball it trim it and stow your gear?

What whould you say to spike ti trim it and stow your gear.?

Kinda a poll Imm start here.

Id say 45 minutes to spike it and trim it

Id say 2 hrs to throw ball it trim it without spikes...

So in 5 years of being a business owner I'll have lost how much money being a C.A.?

So I'mma say spikeing is 150 % more productive.

You'll be glad to know ive only spiked 1 trim this year. Is only because I've not got alot of tree jobs. So I can give my time without charge in most cases.

Thanks in advance.


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## treeseer (Jul 17, 2006)

"Id say 45 minutes to spike it and trim it

Id say 2 hrs to throw ball it trim it without spikes..."

And I'd say 40 minutes to walk up the first 32' on a ladder, then advance my rope with a telescoping polesaw9and fling bag if needed), and prune the tree. Using that polesaw means that I will not have to climb the last 14', too.  

And advancing the rope that way means I will not need to re-lanyard as often as a spiker. And that means I cannot get sued when the tree is attacked by pine beetles. 

xtreme if you need 2 hours to throwball the tree, you need either a lot more practice, or a new method. You do not have a C.A. problem, you have an epuipment problem.
Buy a ladder and a polesaw, and give this rant a rest.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 17, 2006)

How many times is this subject going to be debated???:deadhorse: 

People who continue to spike trees while pruning them, certified or otherwise, give all the rest of us a bad name.

If you are not up to date on current techniques, take a class or go to a climbing competition and see how the pros do it.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 17, 2006)

treeseer said:


> "
> .



Dude, what kinda pole saw do you own? A Jameson? Ok I admitt a polesaw is effective, but how many do you see on a million dollar tree coutfit rolling?
I'll tell you how many you'll see caused I've pushed um.. None.
You cant keep 4 guys and a grapple bobcat busy with a pole saw ill tell ya that.
Lissen Ive run across two companies out of 312-314 tree companies that employ C.A. The 310 compaiens could care less and are far more profitable. 
For example I pushed one train that if it wasn't a 5 to 8 grand day we sat at home.

C.A. isn't respected down south. The clients are not educated, maybe up north where I've seen some C.A.'s come from are making a decent living.

Your technique seems plausable. Your @ 31 feet with no safety, standing on a ladder? I have used 18 feet as re-directs on large spreading crowns in Biltmore Forest in Asheville NC. We dont have trees that big around here where the limbs start at 80 feet. But a polesaw is a must have.


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## Erwin (Jul 17, 2006)

*Please help me out in this difficult situation!*

I’m more leaning toward spikeless. However, this always puzzles me. Anyone out there can give me an honest answer?

You have a 60’ river birch with three 18” leads going up at ~45 degree relative to the ground. The tree is in the backyard, so bucket truck is out of the question. You can easily throw a line to each of the lead but how could you get up on the lead once you footlock to the the underneath of your point of tie-in? I can see if there is a decent sized branch every foot or two from the height I can get to from a ladder, I can just walk up from branch to branch until I’m done with one lead. But, what if you don’t have many branches that you can climb up with? I see similar situations often with large established silver maple too with a very big lean which makes it impossible to me to trim without spiking it. I did spike in such situation. If anyone can give me a better idea I’m willing to change. Erwin


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## xtremetrees (Jul 17, 2006)

Erwin,
As you know the riverbirth is almost impossible to employ the improvised footlock technique. the branch stem union is so tight it nearly shuts down any rope movement thru its crotch.

If in doubt for safety of your life go ahead and spike it. i have found its not often maybe only once or twice a year that I have to. Keep holding to your guns bro, you'll find a way to do the tree without um, thou it might take all day.. lol Thou I am not supposed to say this being I could loose my C.A. for ethical violations in the future I will. We had a guy on here last month that fell because he had throwballed a dead/hidden tie in trying to adhear to the strict by the book standards of this site.. No worries mate, climb on.

The tree you describe remind me of live oak on the coast. you gotta squirrle out on it no matter what. There is no central tie in.
If you got a bucket truck I'm not surprised your letting them trim jobs go by your side. A bucket? Next thing you know you'll be like the other C.A.'s and pushing pencils and saying how you dont spike your trims. You can tell by the size of their backs if their a real C.A.or a business owner.

Throwball it, climb up the rope safety in, and then get on top. Try it youll like it. Now try and do that on a oily Asplund bucket boom.
Really all you can do is trim while hanging upside down. I call those days think like a bat day.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 17, 2006)

What you are describing is what I would call a 1 percenter (as in one percent of the time) and you are right. The safety of the climber is most important.

With a lean like you have described you've got to ask yourself if you should be pruning it or removing it.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 17, 2006)

As you know the riverbirth is almost impossible to employ the improvised footlock technique. the branch stem union is so tight it nearly shuts down any rope movement thru its crotch

FYI, In the secured footlock technique the rope does not move.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 17, 2006)

Holy smoke boston does the outside of your right foot hurt you too.. haha
heres a pic just for you


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 17, 2006)

was that the correct pic?? I notice the Echo topping saw, have two myself. (I don't touch 'em anymore, now that I have the MS200T)


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## xtremetrees (Jul 17, 2006)

Boston yep it is, its the newer one lightest avail. I bought it for just particular trees ie pines cut and toss. I dropped the one handed at about my 6th year because of two handed guys on this site encouraging me thou it is more difficult and more thought to two hand, my wrist dont hurt nearly as much, I still pic it up on some jobs. I need 2 more saw a mid range say a 351 or so and a large saw for a 40 inch bar. Then my collection will be complete.
The 029 in the front is the weakest of all my saws. I should have saved myself 125 $ and not bought it.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 17, 2006)

Are you saying that you don't use a tophandle saw in the tree?? I always use two hands when cutting but always with a tophandle climbing saw.

You are right about the weight of the Echo...........superlight


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## Erwin (Jul 17, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> With a lean like you have described you've got to ask yourself if you should be pruning it or removing it.



Thanks, everyone for very honest answers. I feel a lot better now. OTG BOSTON, FYI, There are lot’s of silver maples here have over or close to 45 degree leaning limbs or leads. I have one in my backyard that is over 150 year old. The trunk measures 4.8’ diameter and 30’ long. From there up there is no center lead, only a two-leads folk with each leg folks into two. I’m doing everything possible to preserve this tree (though it’s not as precious as the 200 year old white oak in the front yard, it old enough to be preserved) because I have a big swing hanging from 55’ high for my 4 kids. All the lead are leaning badly. However the joints seem to be strong enough to have supported the tree for over 100 years. Just the passed Saturday, I trimmed of a dead leaning branch from the tree. The logs I got down to the ground measures 22”. It’s too big to be called a branch. Erwin


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## Ekka (Jul 17, 2006)

Xtremetrees.

What about the Mitchell Rope climbing system etc, they're fast.

And if you do trims regularly you should invest in one coz from what I have seen you'll be up there in a Jiffy and can use the system as a false crotch to work from, so over shoot your target limb for a high point.

I understand the ethical dilemas you are circulating in your head. Around here 90% of trims are spiked, and there's no repercussions for doing so. I am yet to see a tree die from spiking.

I spike palms for trimming all the time but not trees.

For the guys who wonder about getting around unusual limbs or leans .... remember that your rope has 2 ends, take another prussik with you and use the other end.

I have in the past set 2 crotches, one to get the altitude and the other to pull myself over to the target limb.

To solve your dilema and sleep easy at night, give the customer 2 prices and let them decide, if they go for the cheaper spiking ... it was their choice. If there are local regs you better not offer it though.

My 0.02


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## coydog (Jul 17, 2006)

if it takes you that much longer to prune it spikeless it's because you are an inexperienced and/or mediocre/poor climber without your hooks on. its probably a lot faster to leave stubs and tear cuts too. Oh did I say that out loud? are the c.a. police gonna come and strip my c.a. away from me? 
idiocy


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## matty f (Jul 17, 2006)

Well i suppose your right 2 hours 1 hour maybe to throw ball.... but its not right to spike and i have no respect for any one who thinks it is in my conditions of work.....you on the other hand work in a different country,climate ,trees and work conditions that i know nothing about so i cant really comment.Like clearance and others doing wind firming ........we dont do it in the uk but i it would not be economically viable to throw ball every tree.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 17, 2006)

I think it depends on how much experience a person has with each method. For example, I only climb 5 or 6 trees a month without spikes just to keep in practice and to try out new gear. I am MUCH faster with my spikes. But I have seen other guys who can climb just as fast without them as I can with them. By the way, is clearance banned for good or is he coming back?


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## treeseer (Jul 17, 2006)

Erwin you got riverbirch in MO that shed 22" limbs? Big trees.  

Birches in WI and NC I pull branches over to me using a flip line, then prune em with a pole or by saw. I've never had to spike a birch--fast-rotting trees they are--and I've climbed one that was close to state champ.


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## inztrees (Jul 17, 2006)

*clearnce*

why did he get banded?


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## woodville (Jul 17, 2006)

Bucket truck beats all!


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## xtremetrees (Jul 17, 2006)

I have 12 years pratical experience working aloft. 
Thing is if you got spikeless climbing all day everyday its great. However I may go 3 weeks without any jobs and then its 2 weeks heavy. Its tuff to hold to your guns and be what a C.A. really is and thats a spikeless climber.

The standard is the same internationally. 
Its a individual thing as to where or not to be more productive and ie spike. I think those guys that fly buckets and spike indescrimantly are hacks thou they prolly drive a cigereette boat on weekends they dont post to this site, and sleep well because they dont read this info.  

The benefits of spikeless:
I think because this restraint of not spikeing trims thou is is self imposed is actually more productive in the long run as a business owner. My customers know I put my heart into thier trees and this is what will keep me afloat.
Its not the wham bam thank ya for the brush never see ya incase of storms type hacks.

I am cultivating long term relationships and over time all my customers will be repeats and referals. These are the measures I judege myself by, as well as what sets me apart from the cigarette boat owners and bucket riders and "I only do removals" tree guys.

I'm sorry I started this thread and just have to suck it up and drive on. I'm not gonna git rich over night I have to accept this and be patient. 

Its a very dangerous job we do and i respect any tree guy or gal no matter thier way about it.

Ekka what is this thing your describing its a lock jack?

Edit" woodville please post pics of your cigarette boat.
Treeseer, Right on!


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## Diesel JD (Jul 17, 2006)

Hey, I am not in the business, but from what I have seen around here most tree companies spike trims and takedowns alike. I have the idea that it would be hard to get people to pony up the extra bucks for doing it the less harmful way. Most of our trees around here, at least removals and trims are laurel oaks. they could be climbed without spikes by a good climber in most cases, but then we also have lots of pines and stuff like taht too. Bottom line, right or wrong most folks around here go for teh abrgain basement prices and most companies have plenty of work and want to get done and get on to the next job.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 18, 2006)

Are they hyper-pruning and lion tailing I'm sure they exploit the structure by forceing the tree into an overmature appearance. Hope ya dont get a Hurrican bro. Tree along the coast of Ga are hyper pruned and scheduled removal of sucker growth is comon. Spikeless climbing shouldnt cost more. C.A. should be comparable in pricing to other companies


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## Fireaxman (Jul 18, 2006)

Erwin said:


> I see similar situations often with large established silver maple too with a very big lean which makes it impossible to me to trim without spiking it.



Erwin, I have yet to see a leaner I cannot climb and prune spikeless, using double rope dynamic technique with an advanced friction hitch like the VT. Set your rope above your target limb, as Ekka suggested. On moderate leaners I actually climb under the lean using my lanyard to hold me close to the trunk so that I can "Walk" up the trunk as I pull myself up the dynamic side of my line. Ekka's suggestion about double crotching to pull you out from intermediate limbs to get over them is good, but I usually just drag myself over any intermediate limbs. Its not that hard. I'm no young buck at 56.

On severe leaners where I cant reach the trunk I just pull myself up the (dynamic, doubled) line, although if I have the benefit of a "Groundie" he can take about 1/2 or more of the effort out of it by pulling on the tail end my rope. I had a man pull me up once with a riding lawnmower without me having to lift a finger, except to advance my friction hitch. Talk about Easy. 

Pruning is mostly what I do. Lean does not bother me at all with ropes. In fact, I think ropes are safer on lean than spikes, because I don't have to worry about falling off under the lean (I deliberately climb under the lean).


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## Koa Man (Jul 18, 2006)

If you are climbing palms, then spikeless climbing will be at least 5, maybe even 10 times slower. Even on real trees, it depends on how far apart the branches are. Lots of times I do removals without spikes. I just did one last Wednesday. A small mango tree about 20 ft. tall with a spread of about 40 ft. I cut all the laterals and tops off and all that remained was a 10 ft. trunk which I dropped from the ground.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 18, 2006)

I am absolutely sick of people saying spikes are faster!!! If you can throwball and footlock well, you will clean up a climber with spikes. The tree will be looked after, access is faster, the climber is able to manurer through the canopy of the tree faster and smoother with out the chance of spiking ones self.

Sure a guy with spikes will be faster on a tree with a nice straight trunk with no branches to climb out on, or around. How can you even call that climbing! Anyone can throw on spikes and get a flipline and do this.

How many of you guys that think spikes are faster learn to climb on spikes?


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 18, 2006)

In New Zealand 95 % of pruning is done spikeless and the 5% that prune with spikes simply cant climb with out them. Only once in my life have i gone up a tree with spikes that was not being removed and it was an emergency.

In regard to the silver maple or what ever with three leaders, how about a double roping system set from the ground, or a traverse set in 2 leaders that allows access to the remaining leader. PICTURE???


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 18, 2006)

On moderate leaners I actually climb under the lean using my lanyard to hold me close to the trunk 

This is where a couple of choker slings could come in handy. Choke them onto the main stem and use them as footholds.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 18, 2006)

The only way to settle this discussion about timing is to set up a tree with stations like in the Masters Challenge of the ITCC. Then run people through using spikes, ladders, ropes only, whatever...compare times. In order to be valid though it would take a lot of data. 

A test like this isn't really going to be that valid though. Instead of going to one individual station the test would have to incorporate pruning in lots of positions like a typical job. the test parameters wouldn't be that hard to setup though.


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## squisher (Jul 18, 2006)

is this the arboristsite or the spike vs spikeless site

I spiked spars in the bush for five years. I'm good on spikes. Now I work in urban forestry and I'm practicing to become as good on rope. I could definetly spike trims twice as fast as spikeless trim them but I don't. If you cannot do a pruning job spikeless you should refer the customer to someone who can. And if you think this is bad for business then you need to re-evaluate your business and the product that you offer. Taking advantage of the customers ignorance in proper tree care techniques is not right and will come back to bite you.

I constantly hear the c.a. non c.a. argument. It should not take a professional designation to make you do the right thing. If you are educated in the care of trees you should not spike your trims. 

Spike trimmers I ask you this would you or do you spike trim your own trees? And if so why?

In a world full of compromise professional arborists should stick to their guns. Just because someone else does or will do something does not make it right.


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## jmack (Jul 18, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Dude, what kinda pole saw do you own? A Jameson? Ok I admitt a polesaw is effective, but how many do you see on a million dollar tree coutfit rolling?
> I'll tell you how many you'll see caused I've pushed um.. None.
> You cant keep 4 guys and a grapple bobcat busy with a pole saw ill tell ya that.
> Lissen Ive run across two companies out of 312-314 tree companies that employ C.A. The 310 compaiens could care less and are far more profitable.
> ...


 yes big companies use poles, throw bag in first and your tied into from the bottom if not lanyard around trunk on top rungs of ladder


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## Erwin (Jul 18, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Erwin you got riverbirch in MO that shed 22" limbs? Big trees.
> 
> QUOTE]
> Treeseer, if you read my post more carefully you will know that I'm talking about a 150 year old silver maple in my backyard. Hope this answers your question. Erwin


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## matty f (Jul 18, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Great post Squisher.
> I second that dude


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 20, 2006)

Im with Tom, set up a masters.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 20, 2006)

Once in the canopy, I believe most guys using spikes only use them a fraction of the time aloft. What I mean by this is if the climber has branches to step on, he generally doesn't spike the branches unnecessarily. At least I'd like to believe this.

The spiker will generally spike through 'crux' zones until he's in a limbed area and then will climb more with the boots in contact with the tree, rather than the spikes spiking in.

Now if you really made an earnest effort to climb spikelessly through those crux zones, probably half would not be all that cruxy, meaning, if you think about it, the actual _need_ for the spikes is really but a fraction of the time.

Every tree is different, but generally speaking, if you can master those moderately technical areas, you will eventually be able to problem-solve the really tough sections efficiently. In fact, the really tough spots become so few that you can generally see from the ground where you might get into a real challenge. This might determine where you set your rope, above that crux area. That's all it takes. A little extra pre-planning and careful inspection, good practices regardless.

With spikes, it is not hard to get around the tree, but you will climb well below your true potential, in my mind. Spikes allow you to maintain your climbing skills at a below-your-best level, and the tree's expense. Additionally, while wearing spikes you have to be careful to not spike the rope and to not spike yourself. For what its worth, wearing spikes adds more weight to your overall system.


Think hard about this question as it will be individually different for each and every one of us: How much of the time aloft do you absolutely need spikes to get past an area? If your skills are such that you TRULY only need the use of the spikes 10% of the time while aloft, you're having to schlepp them with you 90% of the time where they are, for all practical purposes, unused and a hinderence and a safety concern.

When your climbing skills are amped up to the point where very few places are truly crux zones you will figure a way to solve the problem. It will be slower than if you had spikes on, but it is only in these infrequent hotspots that spikes are FASTER than without. *For the majority of the time a climber spends in a crown, swiftness and overall efficiency IMHO is faster and safer not using spikes.* I've been to both sides.

If you commit to not using spikes on trims it is almost a guarantee that your skills will sharpen above that of having a spike dependence. The price is, you have to work to achieve this. You'll hit places that are a stretch for ya. It's a satisfying feeling when you bust a crux and the next crux becomes easier. New techniques and skills arise and spikes only come out for portions of takedowns.

It's a personal choice unless your boss or company REQUIRES you to climb with spikes. In this case, you may want to re-evaluate your employment situation.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 20, 2006)

Good post TM. 
Really the only hard part of spikeless is ascending to the top. How you get there depends on the type of trees you climb, day in and day out.
Most guys know a few different ways of getting up, but tend to use the same method over and over, and get good at it. The most common I see are ladder, footlock, and SRT.
If you master a good entry technique, climbing around is easier without the spikes, as TM eloquently explained. 
Even on removals, if I don't need spikes, I'm not using them.
There is another variable, besides just learning to climb efficiently without spikes, the type of climbing you do. For example, the guys out west, climbing those huge trees, or those guys in the south climbing nothing but pines and palms, what chance do they have to learn spikeless? Plus the years of inbreeding...but that's another thread.
When I hear a guy say spiking is so much faster, I know he has never taken the time to learn, for whatever reason.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 20, 2006)

Yesterday I had a short 60 foot climb. I used improvised and it is much slower than footlocking both ropes. To top it off I left a short 2 inch dead stubb on the back side of the tree and had to go back up. It was 97 degrees and truely I was P.O'ed.
You guys can raazz me all you want but I've been spikeless 12 years.
Im useing 9mm tress cord to foot lock with. It could help out some with mar-bars, I'll get around to buying them.
What I'm dealing with is post contsruction trees, meaning dead crowns... They die from the tops down. The apical buds are dead so the tree starts pulling on dense sucker growth I can barely punch thru.Throw ball that it blows and takes several throws.then you really dont know how dead it is all that sucker growth and binos wont help.
Ill take pics today and show ya what i mean.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 20, 2006)

I left a short 2 inch dead stubb on the back side of the tree and had to go back up.

It seems to me that a 2in. stub would be less harmful to the overall health of a tree than hundreds of little spike wounds.


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## spacemule (Jul 20, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> For example, the guys out west, climbing those huge trees, or those guys in the south climbing nothing but pines and palms, what chance do they have to learn spikeless? Plus the years of inbreeding...but that's another thread.


Speaking of inbreeding, check out this goober! :hmm3grin2orange: 

maashole


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## treeseer (Jul 20, 2006)

xtreme, the first pic showed very little deadwood. On that I'd sell work on the roots, to stop the dieback, and recommend holding off on crown work until dieback is done (or limbs get to hazard size).

pic 2 limbs were big enough to do damage, so yes it's time to prune. I'd use a ladder to get up into the crown, then push my line ahead through the sprouts with a polesaw if there was no room to fling the snap.

For 20 years in NC I've been doing trees like that, routinely. Never had to spike to get into one, and rarely have to fling. O and I agree with OTG, what is a 2-inch stub in the big scheme of things? Chill, man.:biggrinbounce2:


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## xtremetrees (Jul 20, 2006)

*space mule thats a riot*

Oh id love to do that to these pencil pushing geekwad home owners, oh its like ther perverbable inch ill never scratch.
lol nice putfile


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## rebelman (Jul 20, 2006)

I'd say ladder and pole are fastest. I can tie in in just a few minutes at fifty or sixty feet, even if that is where the lowest branches are. I have used spikes on trims---only on the part of the tree that is to be removed. I don't think cutting dozens of holes in the cambium is good for the tree. Sometimes I do trees with massive bases, I wonder how it could be fliplined. I don't think competition is a good idea. Remember rock descent? On Wide World of Sports? It only lasted a couple of weeks, the winners basically jumped off a cliff to be the first one down.


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## gitrdun_climbr (Jul 20, 2006)

*BIG shot*

Today we showed up onsite to remove two leaning 'pekker-poles' my co-climber likes to call them...120 foot tall douglas fir trees with about a 12-14" diameter from the dirt up...no taper. They each had a little 'puff' of canopy in the top 20 feet or so, an obvious photo-tropism as those guys raced for sunlight only available above the canopy of the larger firs around them.

Let me be clear that I am no salesman for Sherrill, or anyone for that matter, but at 9:00am I got that big shot out and by 9:05, with two shots, I had a 10 oz. throwbag and line over a nice cluster of three strong branches at the collar at around 80 feet in a neighboring larger, tapering fir for rigging our tops and poles down...and ourselves although my co-worker didn't bother with that part but that's for another discussion. Only reason it took two shots is because I drew waaaay down on the first one and launched the line threw one side of the canopy, possibly OVER the 'helper' tree and down through the other side of the crown! The bag returned and everything! Because we couldn't see what I was anchored to...probably the top...I untied my bag, retracted the line and used much less power on the second shot. We ended up rigging down the worse of the leaners taking nice 13' logs, no problemo, and for the straighter pole we shot the top with the bigshot, ran a rigging line up with the running bowline and pulled it down through a crease in the canopy with a notch at the base...more logs. The big shot WORKS! In many large tree situations it's a major time saver. We sure didn't need to spike that helper fir out just to set a line, nor did we need any clunky ladders or pole saws and all that, though I will say those tools have their place in our field as well.

That's my 3 cents.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 21, 2006)

Good post.
What's that like climbing such a tall, thin tree? It's gotta be scary!


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## clearance (Jul 21, 2006)

Today in a 61/2 hour day I climbed a few trees. First I climbed about 100' up a hemlock, topped it and swung into a big hemlock that co-domed at about 120' into two stems that went to about 180', topped both stems and cut off some branches. Then I climbed another three hemlocks, all single climbs, 90' to 110' where I came down after topping them, then a sitka spruce that was about 110' where I topped it. Plus a couple of little hemlocks I could get from trees I was in. Relax, I am windfirming trees to stop them from blowing down into creeks, prune it and top it or it blows down in the violent winds up here. The trees we do only have to last for 15-20 years until the understory grows up to shade the creek. Anyways, could you climb up like 500-600' spurless, and run a saw on the way up in 61/2 hours? I mean every day? I'm bushed right now, back tomorrow. I understand spurless climbing nice trees in peoples yards, its all good, could you do my job spurless, and would you want to? Mike, I have climbed lots of skinny pecker poles, second growth ones are scary, they bend and bend, move around like crazy from your wieght without any wind, hard to get used to.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 21, 2006)

Clearance, ha you have absolutely ruined the trees you've topped so i don't suppose few spike marks will matter will they


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## Koa Man (Jul 21, 2006)

Spikeless will never beat spikes on palms.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 21, 2006)

Clearance, glad to have you back. The spurless tree huggers were starting to take over the site!! But you are right. Just last week I had to climb and rig 19 black cherry trees for a local logging company. They were simple-climb up 75-80 feet, tie in, set the tip line, come down, and move on to the next one.(Had a crew cutting and dropping behind me.) But I only had 4 hours in which to do the job-the logging company had to be off the property by the end of the day.(I was able to get it done in time but talk about whipped-I haven't done that much up and down in a long time-usually i go up and stay up for a while.) Alot of the "arborists" sound like they know what they are doing, but I sometimes wonder if they have any actual tree experience outside of books and rec climbing. (Oh, by the way, I spiked the whole job.) Could these trees have been climbed spikeless? Yes, no doubt. Could they have been done in 4 hours? I don't know.


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## gitrdun_climbr (Jul 21, 2006)

Clearance, I definitely could do your job spurless...would I want to...no. The situation you described is radically different from mine in that these trees we were 'borrowing' for lines are right over some upper-scale backyards and are old prized, visible and very valuable trees. Even the common layman would wonder what the heck we were doing if spiking them up and believe me, people were watching. They didn't have to watch very long though, we were in and out of there in a couple of hours mostly spent cutting/cleaning/loading logs. In summary I guess I don't understand the comparison as yours sounds like a very different operation for sure!

Mike those trees actually do the wave when you move on them. Not so much when the top is on, mostly they bend back and forth with the lean at that point but once that top is gone to counter the stem the trunk wobbles all over the place and it really is hard to get used to. I tie into another tree when I can but that's not always an option. My buddie has much more confidence in those little firs and spikes right up there even when there is the rappel line option. He's 'used' to them. Sure makes the larger diameter trees feel safe no matter how high you go up!

beowulf343 why not spike trees that are being taken down for a logging company? I sure would, nobody is saying spikes have no place in arboriculture but if that's all you know than stick to removals. Don't knock other people for cracking a book and diversifying their skills...or for trying to take care of peoples invested interest in their trees by using ropes instead of spikes on a trim. These people up here are more than happy to pay top $$ for good longterm care of their trees and if your company spikes up it's reputation you will be swallowed by the industry here...many tree services...and you'll have to resort to undercutting and probably underbidding, etc.

Just my humble opinion.


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## clearance (Jul 21, 2006)

Jim1NZ said:


> Clearance, ha you have absolutely ruined the trees you've topped so i don't suppose few spike marks will matter will they


Wolf 343, Hi. Jim, I guess you have never been in an old growth rain forest and seen what I have. The trees are not ruined, they will live on. This is coastal British Columbia, the growing season is about 11 months, the trees are pretty tough. I remember cutting down big second growth Douglas firs in Hope, B.C., they had been topped probably 40-50 years previously and regrown another 60', so much for ruined. In the old growth you will see trees that have had thier big tops ripped off by the wind, trees that have been ground to sky sidelimbed by falling trees, trees that have been mutilated from falling trees that have extensive rot and even other trees growing from them still alive. Did you not read what I said about why I do my job?


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 22, 2006)

Koa Man said:


> Spikeless will never beat spikes on palms.



Your right there Koa, because there is NO branches.

I have tried spikeless palm cleaning, what a mission!!!


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 22, 2006)

Good post Treeco


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## beowulf343 (Jul 22, 2006)

gitrdun_climbr said:


> beowulf343 why not spike trees that are being taken down for a logging company? I sure would, nobody is saying spikes have no place in arboriculture but if that's all you know than stick to removals. Don't knock other people for cracking a book and diversifying their skills...or for trying to take care of peoples invested interest in their trees by using ropes instead of spikes on a trim. These people up here are more than happy to pay top $$ for good longterm care of their trees and if your company spikes up it's reputation you will be swallowed by the industry here...many tree services...and you'll have to resort to undercutting and probably underbidding, etc.


Gitrdun, I'm glad you see it this way. But alot of guys think that spikes are a tool of the devil and have no place in tree work. I will admit, I am fond of my spikes but I spent three years at the beginning of my career trimming without them. I think we(I) just need to realize that some jobs need spikes and some jobs don't and we are all just treemen doing a job we love to make a living!


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## gitrdun_climbr (Jul 22, 2006)

Agreed, spikes are the #$%@ and sure make some of these removals easier. In an urban environment where trees face so many obstacles (compaction, pollution, mechanical damages, etc.) and are highly visible I can't imagine 'needing' to damage the cambium to fix a branch though and this seems to be where alot of guys side with the faster dollar or the longterm health of the tree. With a climbing line in the top and a flipline on the trunk you can almost walk up the trunk with the flats of the feet, safely. I actually enjoy foot jamming, leg locks and the creativity involved in slinking around a canopy removing deadwood and rubbers. The feeling is even better when I walk through with the homeowner after and they say something like, 'wow, I can't even tell you were up there and the tree looks great!'


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## Climb020 (Jul 22, 2006)

Spiking is for removals only in my case. For a pruning job on average it takes 2-3 shots with a thowbag and you set your line. Then 2 minutes max. if you take it easy to foot lock 100' with my kong ascender. Just seems like a no brainer to me. I tend to move around alot and pretty fast. With spikes on a would be getting stitches at least once a week or just go slower. But going slow isn't the idea. Right? In the bush it is different. You aren't pruning you are hacking plain and simple.
Beowulf if you are just setting a line in the cherries why climb it in the first place when you could just throwball it. If you are good you could be done within and hour, hour and a half. 75-80' throws are pretty easy.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 22, 2006)

Climb020, good point about setting the lines from the ground, and I thought about doing it that way. However, all these trees were hanging right over a transmission line (which was why they needed to be rigged in the first place.) I suck with a throwbag for anything over 50 feet (yeah, I know, not enough practice) and it can ruin your day when you use a bigshot and the rope settles over the branch then drops right between the power lines or over the branch and then over all three lines. 

(Where was the power company? Who knows, the logging outfit had been waiting for them for over a month before they called us.)


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## clearance (Jul 22, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Climb020, good point about setting the lines from the ground, and I thought about doing it that way. However, all these trees were hanging right over a transmission line (which was why they needed to be rigged in the first place.) I suck with a throwbag for anything over 50 feet (yeah, I know, not enough practice) and it can ruin your day when you use a bigshot and the rope settles over the branch then drops right between the power lines or over the branch and then over all three lines.
> 
> (Where was the power company? Who knows, the logging outfit had been waiting for them for over a month before they called us.)


Ah yes, the power lines, funny, funny. A while back there was a discussion over wearing spurs to climb around power, I posed the question "how can you get up a tree if the first branch is higher than the primary" Treeco, in his wisdom said "ever heard of a throwbag?", in a mocking way. Then there followed a discussion of ropes of any kind being dielectrically tested, limits of approach and so on. One chap, I forget who, said that he would use a Jamieson pole pruner with four or five extensions to set his climbing line, right. Treeco, the trees I windfirm will never be logged, they are in riparian zones. And I never said all trees in Canada around powerlines are spurred, in British Columbia they are. And all of the ISA certified guys I have ever worked with climb trims with spurs, deal with it, as you will not do anything about it but whine. We will soon put it to rest, who's we?


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## beowulf343 (Jul 22, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> I tend to move around alot and pretty fast. With spikes on a would be getting stitches at least once a week or just go slower.


Wow, stitches once a week. Maybe you need to stop sharpening your gaffs so they don't pierce the skin so easily.


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## a_lopa (Jul 22, 2006)

how much slower?think painfully


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## beowulf343 (Jul 22, 2006)

I just thought of something. Do people climb spikeless because they care about the tree or because there have been so many horror stories about spike related injuries. I was out with some climbing buddies last week and we got into hospital visit stories. These guys all work for Asplundh as residential, backyard trimmers. They have a combined time of over 50 years working on spikes, yet only one guy had ever had to go to the hospital for a spike injury! It seems if you are careful, know how to use spikes, and wear the proper boots(no sneakers), you can keep from stabbing flesh. I have over seven years on spikes with no puncture wounds yet (knock on wood.)


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## Koa Man (Jul 23, 2006)

I have never gaffed myself in 20+ years of climbing. I did have (notice, past tense) one idiot climber employee who gaffed himself a real good one in the upper thigh. The gaff bottomed out on his leg. This was after the job was done and he was walking back to the trunk carrying his gaffs by the foot step with the gaffs next to his thigh. He slipped and the gaff went straight into his leg. Good thing he had pole gaffs and not the tree gaffs on. Out for 2 weeks. I asked him "what were you thinking, carrying the gaffs like that?" Everybody I know carrys the gaffs by the shank.


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## matty f (Jul 23, 2006)

[QUOTE=Do people climb spikeless because they care about the tree or because there have been so many horror stories about spike related injuries. 

Spikes just feel to heavy and clumsy to be moving around a tree when you can swing round on a rope,how people could be wearing them to do trims.
Chainsaw trousers and boots are heavy enough for me.

Ill only put spikes on if im felling a pole from bottom up or ill stick them on at the top to slab down..........i think my worse tree nightmare ive had is slabbing down a big dead English oak trunk double cutting with a stihl 88 on spikes...wear them for a couple of hours and you walk out the tree a cripple,its just not natural to have that much pressure on that part your feet.


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## gitrdun_climbr (Jul 23, 2006)

Well if you have a 'tree care' company you better be doing it for the 'care of the trees', doesn't that make sense? I feel like this work pays well enough to not have to chew up the sides of someones tree on a trim just to leave the jobsite six minutes earlier...it just ain't that tight.

I don't know much about line clearance but I would guess if utility crews are spiking trees under powerlines, they are doing so because dealing with throwlines and ropes will take longer than spiking in that particular environment full of brush and heavy growth. Priority is for the many, many trees to be kept out of the powerlines and they need to move along.

On a 200 year old college campus filled with well manicured lawns and gardens and long rows of tall, open trees the gaffer will do twice the work in twice as long with 100 times (or more) the damage...mind you this is talking about two equally skilled climbers and is only my opinion.

I guess my point is that I wouldn't expect a sports car to beat my big ol' 4x4 off road...nor would I expect my 4x4 to beat a sports car in the city. How silly to even compare.



> I think we(I) just need to realize that some jobs need spikes and some jobs don't and we are all just treemen doing a job we love to make a living!


 well said beowulf343.


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## Climb020 (Jul 23, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Wow, stitches once a week. Maybe you need to stop sharpening your gaffs so they don't pierce the skin so easily.



Never spiked myself once. But if you move around alot with spikes on you have to take too much time being careful as apposed to without spikes you can just run straight out on a limb and not worry about spiking yourself.

Yes tree care is exactly that. To take care of the tree and not ruin them.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 23, 2006)

So I use red loop runners as foot steps oh about 3 times a week or day? huh, which is it a week or a day tree coboy?

Yes Ive spiked my heels I guess all of us have. Thats nothing compared to a removalof a lightening struck oak. Rope that on that. whoa!

You folks I can have fun with becuase I know yall havent used a loop runner as a step in months haha.:rockn:


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## OTG BOSTON (Jul 24, 2006)

Yes Ive spiked my heels I guess all of us have. Thats nothing compared to a removalof a lightening struck oak. Rope that on that. whoa!

:jester: 

If "removal" is involved, then of coures spikes are o.k. I can't believe how many people don't grasp the basics. PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tree Machine (Jul 24, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> You folks I can have fun with becuase I know yall havent used a loop runner as a step in months haha.:rockn:


Well, not a loop runner, but a rated sling. I would have had to put two loop runners together to get the extension as shown in the pic.

Another good trick to have in the bag, but I use loop runners or slings it seems like once every couple years as a footloop. If you look for a faster way around a situation like that, you'll usually find it. In this pic I simply forgot to leave myself a stub to step on and it was either a foot sling, or send up the spikes (area was directly over a house). The tree was a takedown.

(please excuse that this pic has already shown up in another thread)


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## Ryan Cafferky (Jul 26, 2006)

On an 85 foot tree I can put a throwball into the top and go up SRT and get up and prune the tree in less than an hour. While the climber with spurs is putting his flipline around and over every limp a climber going SRT can just zip up the rope past all of the limbs to the top. I don't even use spurs for my removals 99% of the time and I live in the northwest where we have some pretty large trees. :

I'll walk off a job if someone is pruning a tree with spikes on. That is one of the big reasons I left the last company that I previously worked for. I was the foreman and had a pretty cush job but the owner didn't care and was even encouraging spurring of trees that were being pruned. All he cared about was profit. All I cared about was the trees.


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## clearance (Jul 26, 2006)

Ryan Cafferky said:


> On an 85 foot tree I can put a throwball into the top and go up SRT and get up and prune the tree in less than an hour. While the climber with spurs is putting his flipline around and over every limp a climber going SRT can just zip up the rope past all of the limbs to the top. I don't even use spurs for my removals 99% of the time and I live in the northwest where we have some pretty large trees. :
> 
> I'll walk off a job if someone is pruning a tree with spikes on. That is one of the big reasons I left the last company that I previously worked for. I was the foreman and had a pretty cush job but the owner didn't care and was even encouraging spurring of trees that were being pruned. All he cared about was profit. All I cared about was the trees.


I can run up a 85' and prune it, spiral, sidelimb, whatever and be on the ground in less than an hour with spurs, do it all the time. How do you block down a big fir without spikes? Not being ignorant, I just can't picture how.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 27, 2006)

clearance said:


> How do you block down a big fir without spikes? Not being ignorant, I just can't picture how.


Excellent question. How much do you want to bet that he will say that as soon as he starts chunking the stem, he puts his spikes on. I have been told this by alot of spikeless climbers. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2006)

In most cases spike are faster and in some cases they are not. There is a time and place for everything, for Example: If you are Climbing for a Line Clearance Right of way crew in the woods, pruning tree after tree, It would be crazy not to use spikes. Yet If a homeowner hires you to Fine Prune their Pin Oak you should provide them with a service that is 100% beneficial for their tree, in that case spike would not be appropriate. Most of the arborists here have probably never been in a Right of way all day going up tree after tree with spikes for 8 hrs; it is an exhausting task. I will make one observation, these trees have been spiked for as long as the circuits have existed and they are still growing into the wires and are mostly extremely healthy. I don't really see the big deal of creating a few tiny spike wounds in the middle of the forests when the wounds your pruning cuts leave behind are 50 times the size. I do see the ethical problem in spiking customers trees when they are hiring you to take care of their trees, and perform a service that will be 100% beneficial to the health of the tree.

My two cents...Thanks


www.dillontree.com


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 27, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Excellent question. How much do you want to bet that he will say that as soon as he starts chunking the stem, he puts his spikes on. I have been told this by alot of spikeless climbers. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.


That's a pretty radical trim job when you're standing on the spar taking off chunks.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 27, 2006)

That's a description of a takedown.

Whoever said we've probably all spiked our heels.... Probably not all of us, though it is a valid concern. Ya gotta watch stabbing your rope, too, as well as any low-hanging slings.


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## clearance (Jul 27, 2006)

diltree said:


> In most cases spike are faster and in some cases they are not. There is a time and place for everything, for Example: If you are Climbing for a Line Clearance Right of way crew in the woods, pruning tree after tree, It would be crazy not to use spikes. Yet If a homeowner hires you to Fine Prune their Pin Oak you should provide them with a service that is 100% beneficial for their tree, in that case spike would not be appropriate. Most of the arborists here have probably never been in a Right of way all day going up tree after tree with spikes for 8 hrs; it is an exhausting task. I will make one observation, these trees have been spiked for as long as the circuits have existed and they are still growing into the wires and are mostly extremely healthy. I don't really see the big deal of creating a few tiny spike wounds in the middle of the forests when the wounds your pruning cuts leave behind are 50 times the size. I do see the ethical problem in spiking customers trees when they are hiring you to take care of their trees, and perform a service that will be 100% beneficial to the health of the tree.
> 
> My two cents...Thanks
> 
> ...


What a well reasoned post, I support this. This is the kind of rational thought we need here.


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## treeseer (Jul 27, 2006)

I worked in a rural lot last week, A few oaks near the driveway were damaged by others being felled. They were tore up so bad and so hard to climb, I was going to use the client's 12' ladder, then spike the rest.

when I carried the spikes to the tree, my intern looked at me funny and said, "I thought you were trimming these." I thought about it a minute and said, "You're right, load em back up." Yes it took more time and effort, but it was worth it not to damage the trees any more. the owner didn't know any different, but I did, and so did my intern.

Why'd he have to learn to do things the right way? :bang:

Dil, clearance, I got no problem with what you said, and neither does ANSI or ISA.


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## clearance (Jul 27, 2006)

Intern? what the hell is that? I thoght it meant some chick that hung around the office, like Monica Lewinski, surely you mean apprentice.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 27, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> That's a pretty radical trim job when you're standing on the spar taking off chunks.


I was talking about Ryan and when he said he does 99% of his REMOVALS spikeless.


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## clearance (Jul 27, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> That's a pretty radical trim job when you're standing on the spar taking off chunks.


If its a strip and chunk removal how do you stand on the spar, stand on what, air, or are you leaving bag grabbing stubs all over, that you have to re- limb on the ground?


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## Tree Machine (Jul 27, 2006)

Clearance said:


> If its a strip and chunk removal how do you stand on the spar, stand on what, air, or are you leaving bag grabbing stubs all over, that you have to re- limb on the ground?


I can answer that. If you can just give me a few minutes to process the video. It's from yesterday's job. I'm not sure why I schlepped the video camera along....OHhhh, it was the wound, monster wound on the one side, the entire crown weight on the other, over top of a garage, a shed, two directions of fence, trunk up through the wires, adjacent to a transformer. I brought the camera because I was suppose to have help that day but he didn't show, oh well, the show must go on.

I got a clip of the tree, bottom to top, telephoto of the wound site, climbed on the garage roof to get another view of the monstrous wound. After I got it crowned out and came down for a chipping session (the helper never showed up) I took another clip of the crowned out tree. Then I called the firewood guys to see what they had going on.

I did all the crowning out DbRT (static) spikeless, and round two, the making of the firewood I did SRT, spikeless. I got video clips of my ascender setup for both of those, including how I back up the ascenders. For some yet-to-be-determined reason, I was climbing on half inch (13 mm) bull rope that day (Stable Braid).

The question that Clearance brings up is "What do you do when you run out of branches to stand on?" See, that was the part where the firewood guys said, "Tree Machine, you want me to pull the ladder off the top of your truck?" I said "No, I'm already here. Grab the video camera, though." and we did a shot. No slings. Just flipline and lifeline, tied in twice.

Just give me an hour or so on putting that together. Then I'll ship it over to Austrailia where Ekka can put it into a .wmv format for windows users who don't have Quicktime or are on dialup.

Thank you for your patience.


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## woodville (Jul 27, 2006)

:deadhorse: Look I think at this point most of us understand spikes and knots both have a time and purpose. Some still swear by gaffs others swear at them. Personally I view it as this, that favorite tree in my front yard great grand pappy Jedediah planted in 1901 do I want to hire a guy who's gonna gaff it up and down or the guy with a rope and saddle? Just a thought.


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## gitrdun_climbr (Jul 27, 2006)

and a fine thought it is. Again circles us back to 'tree care' in the residential setting versus rural line clearance. Most in this forum seem to agree with the difference but there are still a boat-load of climbers in the field spiking anything and everything...and maybe telling the homeowners it aerates it or something.
 
Honesty and integrity must be earned on an individual basis. While I am a member and a fan of ISA because I feel they guided me into the profession safely and ethically, I've come to the opinion that it's endorsement means little more than someone was exposed to professional material and remains a poor marker-stick with which to measure an individual's honesty and integrity.

MO


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## clearance (Jul 27, 2006)

gitrdun_climbr said:


> Honesty and integrity must be earned on an individual basis. While I am a member and a fan of ISA because I feel they guided me into the profession safely and ethically, I've come to the opinion that it's endorsement means little more than someone was exposed to professional material and remains a poor marker-stick with which to measure an individual's honesty and integrity.
> 
> MO


How very true, to hear this from an ISA member is great, I have said this many times here, never as politely though. I will add, ISA certification is also a poor measure of competence or common sense, on its own.


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## trevmcrev (Jul 28, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Just give me an hour or so on putting that together. Then I'll ship it over to Austrailia where Ekka can put it into a .wmv format for windows users who don't have Quicktime or are on dialup.
> 
> Thank you for your patience.



Yay I wanna see your vids but never did solve that quicktime problem. I were reading this post thinking i'll miss out on another one but hopefully Ekka comes to the rescue. TM:rockn: 's.

Trev


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

I think Woodville has me talked out of it. I'm neither I spike lover or hater, this thread isn't going to make a bit of difference in the big scheme of things and my little video isn't going to prove anything except blocking firewood off of this particular tree is possible without spikes. As we all know, every tree is different.

We all know that in the Tree _Care_ Industry - not forestry, line clearance, logging, lot clearing, roadside contracts, etc. - _Tree care_ you adopt the role of stewardship to the health and care of trees. You now get _paid_ to do this. You are seen as a professional and you reflect a perception back to the the rest of our profession.

To get sloppy with our ethics or Treeguy safety is to shoot our industry in the foot. We have all adoted our own standards as Treeguys in the US are not *held* to any standards, even by the ISA. We are unregulated, unlicensed, uncertified and require no formal door to enter this industry. All you need is a chainsaw.

So the standards we set are our own. Clearance and the workers in his industry have their standards set industry-wide. You use spikes whether you want to or not. If you don't want to use spikes, go work in the Tree Care Industry.

Having our tree care behaviors being totally voluntary and free to do whatever way we see fit is very liberating, but really should be viewed as a responsibility. How responsible you are is up to you.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

OK, here's that tree, the hazards below (metal shed, garage, fence, pole and guy wires, phone cable, primary drops and a transformer. It was a unilateral leaner right over top of the garage, tight drop. The camera shot is from the only possible brush zone.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

Here's a couple good shots of the lower trunk wound, and a wound's eye view from atop the neighboor's garage.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> That is a large wound.
> 
> It is from a limb tearing off years ago or from a lightning strike?




Someone spiked up it and it killed that stem,


hmm3grin2orange


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

I crowned it all out. The firewood guys got there after the brush was chipped and that's who shot this little SRT crux move where you're coming up under the horizontal limb your rope is over; this takes footlocking up past your ascender by 1 meter from where it would normally be (above you) then you pull the move on the limb; key: keep your hips in tight.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Great move TM.
> 
> It takes strength and technique to pull that move off. Hip thrusting doesn't work well at all in that situation.


More technique than anything, trusting your boots to keep the rope gripped, so gear and technique, which gives you the confidence to try it, then strength third to pull it off in the crux moment which is a minimal part of the whole move, just a well-placed burst of 'all ya got'. It does get easier with experience


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2006)

OK, here's where I've run out of limbs, I'm cutting into the upper section of the wound site and blocking off firewood pieces. Keep a tight flipline and a tight backup line. Keep them well below where you intend to cut. Lop the piece, work yourself down, lop the next.

To be quite honest, I should have at least been on a ladder, the 395 is pretty hefty to be pulling off a spikeless chunkdown. There was nothing to prove here except that it could be done on this tree. We saved the lower trunk and one area of crown to hide the view of the transformer to one house, so spikes up that section of the trunk would have been bad practice, regardless of whether or not the tree is ultimately hosed.


As far as the crowning out, there were so many limbs, spikes were entirely unneeded. They would have slowed me down. As far as the upper trunk sections, I really only 'needed' spikes for about 6 cuts and in the time it would have taken me to stop, get the spikes sent up (or go down for them), put them on, get set and re-started, I could have already made the 6 cuts, so that's the reasons behind not having worn spikes on this takedown, not that its a long, drawn-out brag, or ethical purity or a bash against spike users; just that it was overall faster without spikes (as well as more comfortable and less hazardous and lighter and cooler).


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## xtremetrees (Jul 28, 2006)

Sweet! Family firends and wow movies!
Look bro youve got how many years expereince TM?

First off let me say that was one holler spot you climbed above.!
I'd say alot of climbers would pass that job by. Rigging on that hollow stuff has got to be smooth, thats why I do it mostly myself. My ropeman has 4 years experience and on a holler spot like that I'd have him stnad back and I would run the rope so its fresh and little movement.

Secondly,that move you made to git on top ROCKED! I made a move almost leaning that much today, If your an arborist or your company is C.A. this should be routein, thou I see very few post to TM's most excellent vids in the last 24 hours. I figure less rather than more are as hardcore as TM.

Thirdly, what was the 395 doing on 12 inch wood. why didnt you verticle snap cut it instead of cutting all the way thru.? I use the snap cut almost exclusively anymore. It holds the piece, I stow my 372 and then snap it off and throw.

I got several jobs comming up TM I'll match your videos here bro.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 29, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Rigging on that hollow stuff has got to be smooth, thats why I do it mostly myself.


I only rigged two limbs. All the rest were sling, cut, unsling, throw.



xtremetrees said:


> Secondly,that move you made to git on top ROCKED!


That's a pretty routine move, the bigger the diameter the harder it is to get up around and over top.


estreametreez said:


> Thirdly, what was the 395 doing on 12 inch wood. why didnt you verticle snap cut it instead of cutting all the way thru.? I use the snap cut almost exclusively anymore. It holds the piece, I stow my 372 and then snap it off and throw.


Snap cut works better on smallerdiameter, or bigger diameter but longer pieces as they're easier to 'tip'. These pieces in the wound zone were super dense with callus. It may have been 12" one dimension, but it was 30 the other. The firewood guys made me rip them in half they were so heavy. When your balls are pasted to the tree, tipping a hefty chunk is way harder than pivoting and sliding it off. Normally I just plow the 395 through and blow straight through like a laser light saber. There's nothing faster. This tree was a leaner and they all had to be pulled and tossed to my back and right.

I hope you have better time with the video than I. It just takes me forever to pump out a few seconds of material. If you guys like it, though, I'll do more stuff in the future.

Not on this thread, though

for it

is

tired

and has run out of

different ways

to say

the 

same 
thing.


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## Ryan Cafferky (Jul 29, 2006)

Most of our work is on trees in residential areas. I will try and drop anything I can get away with but if I have to climb something I just get my line into the tree and head for the top and get tied in first. Most of the time on larger trees I just put a throwline in the top and head up SRT. I just feel a lot more freedom of movement around the tree if I am tied in at the top. Taking the time to get tied in at the top doesn't slow things down because the ground crew is screwing around with something else or setting up the GRCS.



clearance said:


> If its a strip and chunk removal how do you stand on the spar, stand on what, air, or are you leaving bag grabbing stubs all over, that you have to re- limb on the ground?



When I am tied in from above I will just strip off all of the limbs and just leave micro stubs every six feet or just stand on the collars and then launch as big of chunks as I can. If there is any way for me to drop a big log or launch ten foot logs on my way down I will do that rather than chunk. I rarely chunk down a tree. Cutting firewood is the ground crews job. The stubs I typically leave on the tree aren't the ladder rung stubs that most people think they need. I'm a rock climber so I'm used to standing on next to nothing so a 1/4" stub is fine for me to stand on.

I do removals in a way that works for me and my crew but I analyze every job and figure the most efficient way to do it. If I show up and I see that I can do something faster with spurs I will. The less I climb with them the more I realize how little I do need them.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm word for word with you on all that, Ryan, except _usually_ I'll block it out from above. The power-ported 346 and a razor-sharp chain is super effective in knocking off firewood length blocks and flushing off the collars. If it is faster, or safer to do it on the ground, then yea, let the big limbs fly. I enjoy bucking up firewood on the ground. I just enjoy it a little more in the air!


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## SRT-Tech (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm a little reluctant to post this question here, *please note i'm NOT taking sides, nor am i questioning my employer about pros and cons of spurs VS spurless*...ok, that out of the way, here goes:

i'm trained in SRT techniques, high angle rope work and rescue, and building/bridge rappelling and ascension. Thats my background, over 5000 hours of "On Rope" time, lots of hours of theory and practice......i got no prob rigging the Jumars/foot straps for climbing up a rope......

...now at my job, the climber uses Spurs/FlipLine. Nothing else. Trimming, removal, spiral thinning etc. All on Spurs. I asked the boss why they dont use a throwline or a climbing/rigging rope or slings/pulleys, and SRT climbing techniques. His answer _"takes too long to rig, you spend all your day rigging and not removing or trimming"_.

i dont want to throw gas on the spur VS spurless debate, but is this kind of answer to my question encountered a lot? I mean it does'nt take that much longer to setup spurless......

having said that, after trying out the spurs/flipline i definitely like them for the simplicity of use....lol...but there is room i feel for both....

i ask the question though, because there seems to be some major hate for crews that climb with spurs, from what i have seen locally....

sigh


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## clearance (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi SRT, I'm a CUA, used to live in the GVRD, now up in the Charlottes. I climb with spurs, never have spurless climbed, I know guys who are ISA that climb with spurs as well. Thats pretty well the way it is, the growing season is long on the coast, despite all the talk, I have yet to see a tree die from being spurred. Years back I took the course to be a CUA, we were in a park in Surrey, Green Timbers, the whole class spurred up trees, the year before and again, I mean spurred these trees up good, pincushions, still there, still green. Tells me the score. When I came to this site, I talked about what I know, utility work, the slagging and name calling has never stopped because I spur. Don't really care, anyways, there are spurless climbers in the GVRD, they are special people, especially compared to utility guys, bow down to them. If you are really into doing the "right" thing and want an easy, d.f. job then look to the City of Van. and the City of Surrey. They are arborists, some can actually climb even.


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## SRT-Tech (Jul 30, 2006)

hahaha, thanks for the reply! 

i'm actually pretty happy where i am right now. 

part of the reason i signed on was because i enjoy high angle work and i really enjoy solving rigging problems, especially with redirecting where stuff lands.......but since i started working there, the amount of rigging has been about 1%......

but hey thats what my weekends are now for..... :yoyo:


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## Tree Machine (Jul 30, 2006)

Hey SRT, this is a most appropriate place for your questions. I too try not to fuel this debate, though for me there is no debate; use spikes where they are appropriate (for me, takedowns, that's it.).

Up where Clearance is ya got big ol honkin, thick-barked trees, spikes probably never hit the cambium. In the southern US, northern New Zealand, all over Australia, Hawaii you have palms and it seems to be normal operating procedure. Even pines seem to do OK, Cedars same.

But limb-laden hardwoods, all I can say is, 'Why?" Just from the few words from your boss I can sense he's never fired a bigshot, never climbed a 1:1 system, probably doesn't enjoy climbing to begin with and the message that come through from that is "Screw the tree. git up there, git 'er done, make me some money." He's old school and you're not going to change him. He THINKS the way you're doing it is faster, but does he even own a pair of ascenders? When your answer to all this is _"takes too long to rig, you spend all your day rigging and not removing or trimming"_ is he confusing rigging with rope setting? Is he having you do your cutting off of just the flipline, or does he encourage you to be on a lifeline and sink a flipline to fine position and then make the cut?

_"takes too long to rig, you spend all your day rigging and not removing or trimming"_ is a line that comes from someone who simply doesn't know. This is called ignorance when you don't have a clue.

Spikes have their place, but justifying them in places where they are used but not needed, that's just inherently questionable. 

It used to be 'the right way' to do things are ways that we now see as really screwed up. We used to put women on trial by dunking them under water for long periods to see if they were witches. Leeches to remove blood from ya, anti-nausea meds that made little monster babies. Vegetable oil can not be used as a bar lube. Remember the era where doctors actually endorsed smoking cigarettes? Topping tree was once fashionable, as was flush-cutting trim limbs. We can go on and on and on with revisiting our prior beliefs, looking at how silly we were for thinking 'that'.


The reason there is 'hate' for local crews that spike is that the other crews have stepped up their methods. Spike crews are stuck in time, unwilling to change. Such is the human animal. SRT Tech, this is a time for you to effect change. With your aerial skills (and the right tools) you can amaze your boss without using spikes. I'd really like for him to see that. If he's inflexible, just because it has to be done 'his way' then I have to ask, what would it take to get you here to Indianapolis? Your skills are recognized here.


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## boo (Jul 30, 2006)

Well said TM, just as all posts I have read from you.
I thank you for your teachings.
I've been in the tree biz for over 12 years on my own, and have learned just as much in the last 3 or 4 years visiting this site. Thank you to many others of this site also.
Teaching someone something valuable, that they can use every day will certainly get their attention, and make them listen closer to what you say.
Easier to teach after that..... you have my attention.

I think our most valuable tool is our ability to reason.


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## woodville (Jul 30, 2006)

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :


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## Tree Machine (Jul 31, 2006)

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

I agree.



Let's move onto some other dead horse topic, like topping trees.



And thanks, boo.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 31, 2006)

Start a new thread with :yoyo: topic, "How much faster is spikeless removals?"


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## xtremetrees (Jul 31, 2006)

Oh from the pro I get the boot. 
Hey lissen I know that spikeless removals are faster safer and gemerally more fun.
But the learning curve to get to be that fast takes years of SRT. I mean there maybe a handful this capable, maybe only 50 world wide doing this profitably for a living.

Srt removals should be introduced into the tree worker domain.
Thoughtful considerations should be given to limb interference of life line while working aloft. Should srt only be used to access the tree?because of this. I mean you dont want to bomb life line 50 feet down the trree. I dont know why mbut my climbing line lucily has never stopped a falling branch.


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## SRT-Tech (Jul 31, 2006)

sorry, not trying to flog a dead equine here......i felt it was a valid quesiton though (my original post in this thread)


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## Fireaxman (Aug 12, 2006)

*Hit it again - the Horse Aint Dead Yet*

A professional, commercial climber, who climbs only on spurs, does removals exclusively, who coaches me a lot on saw technique, ask me this week to show him what I know about rope climbing. His reason was not for how fast he can work. It was for how fast he can get down.

Spurring down takes both hands and both feet. Roping down takes one hand. Spurring down for the average climber takes just as much time as spurring up. Roping down takes seconds.

If you get cut in the top of the tree, do you want to spur down, or rope down?


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