# I.S.A Board Certified Master Arborist



## diltree (Jul 26, 2005)

Is this The new standard establishing the true experts in the field, or another way for the I.S.A to make money. It is my opinion that if you have the knowledge base to pass this exam you are truly an expert. What are others opinions???????LXT we know how you feel, lets see if others agree!!!!


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## Mike Barcaskey (Jul 26, 2005)

treeco, as one who is studying to take the test in Sept, are there no climbing questions on the test?


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## diltree (Jul 26, 2005)

Tree.Co......learning how to climb is easy; i was climbing at 15 yr/s old, latin names (botanical names), tree biology and a thorough knowledge of current disorders, disease, and species specific problems is impressive. A top notch arborist is like a Dr....all Dr.'s are not surgeons, Why does an arborist need to know how to climb, when they can effectively consult, and prescribe treatment.......Maybe The board certification sets a new standard for a true expert in consult


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## treeseer (Jul 26, 2005)

diltree said:


> Is this The new standard establishing the true experts in the field, or another way for the I.S.A to make money.


Both.

The test is tough, so passing it does show some ability to care for trees, especially from a consultant's-eye view. But you can be a BCMA and still be wrong. :blush: 

The fee is high, so yes its intent is to make money for ISA. they could not exist if they lost money, just like your business.

Dan, I don't think certification should include climbing. I'm taking the certified tree worker test in october; that one is for climbing. I'm after ASCA just like you're after ISA about the advisability of practitioners to get up and see the whole tree. I have the same chance of success seeing much change I'm afraid; Zippo.


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## diltree (Jul 26, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> There are a few knot and safety questions. At least there were in 1992.
> 
> diltree,
> Giving the CA to non climbers diminishes the value the CA designation has for working arborist. We are flooded with non climbing CA's in the Atlanta area so much so that being a CA has no real advantage.
> ...




ahhhhhh....Climbing takes some skill, some endurance, and a good teacher, not a ton of intelligence...I know great climbers, x-marine corps guys; that can hardly read......but can climb and take down huge tree's, with speed and efficiency


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## diltree (Jul 26, 2005)

To be board certified arborist takes knowledge and Intellect


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## treeseer (Jul 26, 2005)

Dan I'm a littler guy than you  and I want to get the ctw for several reasons:

trifecta--bcma, muni spec, ctw

more certs impress potential clients

see how they do the testing

review and learn knots (I only use 2)

ctw is only $100 to take and $15/year to renew

Here's info on bcma: http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/boardCertified.aspx

"To be board certified arborist takes knowledge and Intellect"

I dunno what you mean by "intellect", dil. The test does involve scenarios that require case-specific decision-making skills. If that takes "intellect" then yes, but I would just call it decision-making based on knowledge.


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## Dadatwins (Jul 26, 2005)

treeseer said:


> Dan, I don't think certification should include climbing. I'm taking the certified tree worker test in october; that one is for climbing. I'm after ASCA just like you're after ISA about the advisability of practitioners to get up and see the whole tree.



I am with Dan on this one, if the ISA does not want to include a practical climbing test to become CA they should at least make sure that the applicants have done what they say they have. Back-round checks, some phone calls to previous employers to check so-called experience would benefit the organization in my opinion. Tree worker exam was not available a few years ago when I became CA. ISA created as a 'stepping stone' on the ladder to generate more income. To many folks carrying the CA certificate offering opinions about trees based solely on book smarts and classroom training does not help the industry. I think more diligence in checking back-rounds and experience would weed out a lot more applicants but equal lower income to the ISA, but I think it would make the CA have more value in the field.
I respect the BCMA and would like to someday earn the designation but if the flower guy at Home Depot has it also and the closest he has been to a tree is the Bradford pears in the nursery aisle, does it really count?


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## treeseer (Jul 26, 2005)

Dan that's whack; I don't know any of those knots. Here's the ctw program;

http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/TWappJan2003.pdf

As you can see they call for the tlh or the blake's, and don't require use of a throwline. Monkeyfist, here we come!  I'll be in like Flynn.

As for "progressive' climbers having intellect, then us traditionalists ain't got none, or at least don't show it that way.

DAda, the flower guy at home depot would be lost with the bcma, and so would booksmart folks straight out of the u. The scenarios are real-life, and take field experience to pass. It';s been a year sinc ei took it but that's the way I remember it. btw I agree about checking and also hate that cert goes to those with little practical knowledge; they are puttin out some bad info.


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## diltree (Jul 26, 2005)

TreeCo...I'm 26 yrs. old, I have been climbing since i was 15 yrs. old, I'm third generation in tree care, I'm not putting down climbers, climbing is hard work, and takes skill. I just believe that there is allot more to being an arborist then climbing, the best climbers i know are not arborists.......And do not have the reading and comprehension to study to become arborists, but they have balls of steel in a tree, a great climber and a great arborist are two different entities in most cases.


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## diltree (Jul 26, 2005)

I agree that there should be background checks on the practical experience requirement for the CA...they just took my word for it


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

Come on TreeCo......I know what an arborist is, and I'm sorry but i cant call guys that know very little about agriculture arborists; they could be the best rigger and climber in the world, but if the term "Apical dominance" baffles them, that exhibits they don't understand how a tree grows, and they don't belong pruning a tree, and they are not arborists. In my mind there is a difference between a climber/tree worker and an arborist, and i believe the I.S.A. is doing a great job differentiating between the different jobs in the trade with their new levels of certification.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 27, 2005)

So could i become a ISA certified member? Wheres the test!

Seriously though, are arborists not from the USA able to become ISA certified?


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

Yes, the I... in I.S.A stands for International, you can become certified, go for it


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 27, 2005)

oh of course  . Thanks


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 27, 2005)

Oh I'm already qualified, but ISA seems to by far the most recognized over in the USA, where i want to work for a bit.

Seems that ISA is the most recognized world wide...


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

I would agree with that, the I.S.A a certification giveing you credibility anywhere in the world


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 27, 2005)

Yep


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

Jim would you consider becomeing a board certified Master arborist....that is my long term goal


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 28, 2005)

For sure, i haven't looked into it at all though, and at this stage know nothing about it. I don't know if i could justify the time, effort and money required to become a board certified Master arborist while working in NZ though, there is not the same market for it here.

Still, i think it is most defiantly a goal worth working toward diltree.

I would be keen as.


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## Ekka (Jul 28, 2005)

Hey Jim

Here's the question, I would say that our qualifications far exceed what the ISA certification hoo haa is all about, if we show up will our qualifications be recognised?

You should be able to get instant accreditation, just show them your paperwork and hand over the money for the piece of paper.


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## treeseer (Jul 28, 2005)

Ekka said:


> our qualifications far exceed what the ISA certification hoo haa is all about, ...just show them your paperwork and hand over the money for the piece of paper.


Ekka, from what you describe, it sounds like the training you get over there is pretty good, but as long as you would be willing to pay for it, you might as well sit for the test, eh? I shouldn't expect to flash my bcma in australia or the uk and get certified automatically, should I?

the piece of paper is bound to be useful, even if it doesn't have a photo of a dead president on it.

Dan, you can spend your money on tools that seem redundant to others, or certs that seem redundant. Different strokes...Hey there's a guy from Atlanta who's going to isa--check tb if you want.


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## Ekka (Jul 28, 2005)

treeseer said:


> I shouldn't expect to flash my bcma in australia or the uk and get certified automatically, should I?



Well, I think they should providing they are on par. If you were a mechanic in USA you'd expect to be same here.

We also have a system that accredits recognition of prior learning (ROPL), so if you can produce evidence of competencies you will be automatically accredited with that module, providing you pay for it.


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## treeseer (Jul 28, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Well, I think they should providing they are on par. If you were a mechanic in USA you'd expect to be same here. if you can produce evidence of competencies .


Mechanics, doctors etc here sometimes have to retest when they change states, sometimes not. If proof of equivalent competency is not 100% clear, I can see the requirement to retest.

Teachers transferring form other states to NC have to retest, even tho their states have higher standards. That to me is a cash grab.


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## Ekka (Jul 28, 2005)

treeseer said:


> Mechanics, doctors etc here sometimes have to retest when they change states, sometimes not. If proof of equivalent competency is not 100% clear, I can see the requirement to retest.
> 
> Teachers transferring form other states to NC have to retest, even tho their states have higher standards. That to me is a cash grab.



I know what it's like over there, my dentist tells me. Over here education is Federally endorsed and valid Australia wide ... doesn't matter which state or university you got your degree in you can practice anywhere. He tells me that Florida is a definate example of the dentists looking after themselves with only a few other states qualifications endorsed ... they don't want a deluge of dentists in their turf do they?


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## Tree Machine (Jul 28, 2005)

I read all 13 pages of the ISA Tree Worker Certification. First, I think $60 is a bargain. The costs are stepping away from business for a day or two, travel, food & lodging.

I would be required to demonstrate competence in a style of climbing I don't employ. That's OK, but I haven't tried traditional stuff on 11 mm ropes. I'd have to study up.

Also, as much as I love knots, I don't use them in my treework, or very infrequently so I'd have to refresh a bit.

They don't require you to back up an ascender od splice an eye into a rope. They're missing a few points.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Hey Jim
> 
> Here's the question, I would say that our qualifications far exceed what the ISA certification hoo haa is all about, if we show up will our qualifications be recognised?
> 
> You should be able to get instant accreditation, just show them your paperwork and hand over the money for the piece of paper.



Id hope our qualifications would be reciognised Ekka. If our quals did exceed the ISA's, it doesn't seem it would matter because our quals are not as _well known._ 

Still, im interested in the difference between the two "bits of paper"

You can get instant credication here too, hand over the money and do the test, no class involved.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 29, 2005)

You can work over here with absolutely no accreditation. This is why we have so many hacks. A smiling face and a New Zealand accent, and you're in business.


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## a_lopa (Jul 29, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> You can work over here with absolutely no accreditation. This is why we have so many hacks. A smiling face and a New Zealand accent, and you're in business.




tell me your not serious


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## Tree Machine (Jul 29, 2005)

Well, it is true. The certifications available to us are completely voluntary. A certification may be required by an employer, or a condominium complex may require a certified arborist, or a government agency, or city parks department, etc., but to work as an arborist, or CALL yourself an arborist, there's no regulation against that. To call yourself a Certified Arborist without actually being certified, that's a no-no but I'll bet it happens.

Certain parts of certain states regulate all businesses within their jurisdictions, like portions of California, for instance, but for the most part, tree guys only need a chainsaw and a truck to do business.

Personally, I'd like to see higher levels of regulation, or at least SOME regulation but this is America, home of the free to do whatever you dang well please as long as it offends no one else.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 29, 2005)

I'd like to nominate MB as a Board Certifed Master Arborist.
I know this wont happen thou. My reasoning is MB in all his writings and works on the net throughout the years has never forgotten where he came from. Its the climber with a pickup truck and a poulan thats invented what we all are now. Ive worked for say 20 compaines throuought the southeast USA. Why is my net worth not 1.9 million you say? Government service. Ive spent 16 years of my 38 dong the duty/country/honor, so before you scoff at the working man think we cant all make a million dollars on the homefront if others dont sacrafice for us to do just that. Its a dangerous job we do and to diss some dude with a pickup and a chainsaw because thats all he's got because the rest he's given to you is repungant to me to even hear in this place where we all risk it all almost daily.
I think a Board certified Master Arborist 
should be a good steward first to trees, second to peers, and lastly to the industry.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 29, 2005)

I hope you weren't directing the scoffing and dissing at me. I'm just laying out the facts. In fact, I AM the guy with the pickup and the Poulan, metaphorically speaking. 

We diss the dudes who do poor treework and give our industry a bad name. Some of those guys have big, fancy trucks and a fat ad in the yellow pages.

I think ANYONE performing tree work, regardless of certifications, credentials or education, should be a good steward first to trees, second to peers, and lastly to the industry. Hacks don't seem to share our outlook, but I'd work next to any one of them to teach them better practices. Are we OK?


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 29, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Well, it is true. The certifications available to us are completely voluntary. A certification may be required by an employer, or a condominium complex may require a certified arborist, or a government agency, or city parks department, etc., but to work as an arborist, or CALL yourself an arborist, there's no regulation against that. To call yourself a Certified Arborist without actually being certified, that's a no-no but I'll bet it happens.
> 
> Certain parts of certain states regulate all businesses within their jurisdictions, like portions of California, for instance, but for the most part, tree guys only need a chainsaw and a truck to do business.



Yea, thats the same as here, with the exception of Auckland which has blanket protection, elsewhere though, only the scheduled trees are protected.

The customer is stupid, but not that stupid. They get to know the hacks and therefor never call back, i dont know a hack or heard of a hack being in business for longer than 3 years.

People now, are starting to ask for qualified arborists and are receiving the service they deserve


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 29, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> You can work over here with absolutely no accreditation. This is why we have so many hacks. A smiling face and a New Zealand accent, and you're in business.



Ha i would like to see a yank try and start up here, smile or no smile.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 29, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Personally, I'd like to see higher levels of regulation, or at least SOME regulation but this is America.



Yea mate, so would every quilified arborist


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## Ekka (Aug 3, 2005)

All I see is more and more hacks. The buggers are breeding!!

Some are repeatedly harrassing customers, knocking on doors and badgering them into tree work. Trees are mutilated, things are broken, these bums don't pay tax, don't pay other legal entitlements or insurance and undermine reputable businesses.

I can't wait for the day that some regulation comes in. Until then, I have to struggle to compete with these hacks. I cannot fathom a govt that insists a fence erector be certified and registered yet this industry has nothing.

Education is worthwhile, some customers will know the value and use you, but when it comes to TD's and price, the hacks will be hard at your heels.


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## treeseer (Aug 3, 2005)

Ekka said:


> I cannot fathom a govt that insists a fence erector be certified and registered yet this industry has nothing. .


I can. Reasons:

1. Lack of publicity.

2. Complexity makes it harder to regulate.

3. Lack of industry's self-regulation, which could lead to bovt regulation.

3.a.Lack of involvement and publicizing by industry members.


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## Ekka (Aug 3, 2005)

So, we need an action plan.

I know our QAA is trying but not enough. We could all start by sending a letter to our local polly I suppose.

Reading the injuries section here there's something happening daily. So, besides getting better work there would also be safer work.

We could get a standardised letter and send it. What do you reckon Treeseer?

What they did with the unqualified fencing guys was a 4 day course providing they had experience. The final day of that course was spent totally on business things, pricing etc ... so the fools didn't undercut and burn their suppliers and go broke. It was pretty comprehensive.

We could do the same, cover some basic knots, rigging forces, prussiks and where to cut limbs etc. At least then they'd know, what they do after that is their problem but you got them on file. No more running off when the trees through the roof.


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## arboromega (Aug 4, 2005)

im going to agree with guy here. the isa unites us all to some degree and works to our benefit as arborists like it or not. i believe the isa is just creating some different certs to suite the needs of a diversifying industry. i do think the main ca has become more of an entry exam to the industry but not every arborist is even able to climb. ive know some great plant health care diagnosticians who could do great ipm work, but were too fat or old to get up a tree. the ca is a bachelors degree of sorts, but you must focus to gain your higher course of study.


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## treeseer (Aug 4, 2005)

arboromega said:


> the ca is a bachelors degree of sorts.


I liken it to an AS, Associate of Science degree. A great step to take; your time is worth more once you get it.

Yes it is an entry level, as Muni and Utility and bcma require it as a prerequisite. But it's worth a good bit on its own.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 5, 2005)

Arboromega, you can't say "the ca is a bachelors degree of sorts". A Bachelor's Degree is a 4-year degree from an accredited college, so even 'of sorts' doesn't make them in any way comparable. I'm not flaming you, I just don't think that our readership should be misled like that.

The CA is a test. It's an entrance exam. It's valid and I am in support of it, but not to the point of amplifying it's credential. Even standing it up next to an Associate of Science (a 2-year degree) is way overstated.

I feel the need to say this in defense of all the guys here who have paid for, spent the YEARS and earned B.S and A.S. degrees in forestry, horticulture, urban forestry, plant sciences, plant biology and etc.


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## treeseer (Aug 5, 2005)

OK, TM; I often liken it to a high school diploma if I'm in a bad mood, but that seems like dissing it too much. Somewhere tween that and an A.S. perhaps. I think all omega was sayin was that it's a necessary step to MS or PhD of JD or whatever. Glad we all agree that it has value far beyond its cost.

Got a lot of time on your hands dontcha?  

Happy Healing, Bro.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 5, 2005)

It's a formal door of entry. A new plateau. More important than the material you learn, I think, is the mental confidence gained by the arborist. You ARE ISA certified, you've passed through the door. You can claim it on your advertising, your business cards, your estimate sheets, the side of your truck. You're now seperated from the non-credentialed crowd. You have access to ISA materials. You are on their mailing list and kept updated of current events and news. You're in the loop.

I think there's a lot to be said for that. I connect with the newness of the guys who recently pass the test, it's a different _feel_. More jobs are opened to you because of it. More employers will look at you. You're a new level of Arborist.

All this with just passing an exam. I will always encourage a man (or woman) to become certified. I know no one who has regretted doing it.


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## arboromega (Aug 6, 2005)

guy understood my point. i was using my bachelors degree reference as a parallel comparison, not equating it with an actual bachelors. didnt feel flames in your statement anyway tree machine. 
the ca is still a great program imo and for me it helped me see deep into the horizon of what this career offers and the legions of unique people who are involved with it.


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## treeseer (Aug 6, 2005)

Latest stats on BCMA: 113 have taken the test, 75 passed, some after multiple retakes. they had 2 tests scheduled today here at the conference, but only 2 folks signed up to take it.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 6, 2005)

CHEERS to those newly certified !


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## clearance (Aug 6, 2005)

Tree Machine, I'll say it again, the I.S.A. will certify anyone. I have worked with I.S.A certified guys who are good climbers and have worked for municipalities and the utility who have I.S.A. certified people on staff that direct the work. Most of the non-working I.S.A. people I have met and had to work for are practically useless in the real world. They ask you to climb stone cold snags (refused), tell you to roll cottonwood logs 60ft. long and over 3ft. at the butt by hand alongside the trail, get you to pull dead branches out of trees while leaving big snags beside the same trail unmentioned etc.. I could go on for hours, but like I said, some I.S.A. guys are good treeworkers, no doubt. Having I.S.A certification in and of itself is no measure of anything, if the guy works is he good at it? If he directs others does he make good decisions that put safety first? These are the things that really mean something, or should.


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## treeseer (Aug 6, 2005)

clearance said:


> Tree Machine, I'll say it again, the I.S.A. will certify anyone.


Clearance, my brother, as I posted right above, 1/3 of those who have taken the Board-Certified Master Arborist test have not passed it yet. So your comment here is, at best, irrelevant to the thread.  , and at worst grievously erroneous.

Besides, your continued railing against certification ignores the fact that it represents a big step forward for a tree worker. We all are well aware by now that, yes, some with book learning get certified who do not have the field experience required to direct field activities. I couldn't agree more with you on that.



> does he make good decisions that put safety first? These are the things that really mean something, or should.


The BCMA test is all about decision-making; check out the program
http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/boardCertified.aspx
As you can see BCMA's different from CA; is that clear, ance?

I'm not real surprised at the 2/3 pass rate; it is not easy. But bear in mind that many people who could pass it don't bother taking it because they are already RCA's, plus many who didn't pass will retake it.

It's nice to have, but it takes experience, which after all will comes with time.


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## blackwaterguide (Aug 7, 2005)

*consulting arborist*

A consulting arborist is just what the title implies. He consults, answers questions, diagnosisees, plans, etc. He can be an old man like me who put in my time years ago logging, climbing, etc.. I was a squirrel with very primitive equipment back in the day before this Italian and French moutain climbing gear. Are you telling me that my 300 plus hours in academia is worthless? Do, please, reconsider your opinion. It may be in haste, due to the fact that climbing is a highly skilled trade, very dangerous, and demands much respect when properly done.


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## arboromega (Aug 7, 2005)

clearance said:


> but like I said, some I.S.A. guys are good treeworkers,


ok not to cherry pick your statements, but to differenciate ; ISA CA people should not be tree workers, they should be arborists. there is a diiference. i am not being elitist with this statement, but an arborist is a well renowned enthusist and authority on trees, the tree worker can climb take down and prune.let me have it if you disagree.


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## treeseer (Aug 7, 2005)

arboromega said:


> ISA CA people should not be tree workers, they should be arborists.


So are you saying that arborists should not work on trees? I don't get what you're trying to say.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 7, 2005)

I think what he meant was, certifed arborists should not be _considered_ tree workers. They've stepped into an elevated arena by virtue of their experience that allows them to pass a test that 1/3 don't. Everyone starts out as a tree worker. You graduate and earn the title 'Arborist'. Did I get that right Arboromega?


A-mega said:


> an arborist is a well renowned enthusist and authority on trees, the tree worker can climb take down and prune. Let me have it if you disagree.


 I have severel apprentices out there. They don't claim to be arborists. They don't claim to be authorities, but they climb like monkeys and do decent work. They're, as I call them, Arborists-in-training. They're tree workers and understand being an 'Arborist' requires more than just being out there doing the work.  It's an earned title.

In supporting Clearance's view, there are 'authorities' in every field and discipline who are idiots. You're just gonna get that. It's not fair to smear a credential because of your experience with a dingbat who has that credential.

I'm just glad there's SOME accreditation out there that offers a distinction, and gives a guy in this field something to reach for. It's not acceptable (IMO) for every guy who can climb a tree to be calling himself an arborist.


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## treeseer (Aug 7, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> their experience that allows them to pass a test that 1/3 don't.


TM, that stat is for bcma, not ca.


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## Shaun Bowler (Aug 7, 2005)

I just checked out the BCMA quiz and got 100%
I am a CA and a CTW. I was thinking of taking the test, but then I saw that it was $350.00! What the hell could I possibly get, work wise for that?
I can see it coming in a few years, another test/catagory from ISA. That one will cost $1000.00!
Until I see the benefit of becoming a BCMA forget it. It just dilutes CA creds anyway.


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## treeseer (Aug 7, 2005)

Shaun Bowler said:


> Until I see the benefit of becoming a BCMA forget it. It just dilutes CA creds anyway.


Wait a couple of decades; it may make sense then. 

How do CA creds get diluted? No Comprendo.


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## Treeman14 (Aug 7, 2005)

Shaun Bowler said:


> ...coming in a few years, another test/catagory from ISA. That one will cost $1000.00!
> Until I see the benefit of becoming a BCMA forget it. It just dilutes CA creds anyway.




I wish they did charge that much for certification. It would weed out the hacks and riff-raff. If you can't see the benefit, then its not for you anyway.


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## Shaun Bowler (Aug 7, 2005)

What I mean by dilute, is that every time the ISA comes up with another test (with the word arborist in it) the perseption could be made that one is better than the other.
ie Master, Supermaster, Masterblaster, Supermasterblaster.
I think the same could be said for Muni and Utility Arborist. As arborists we all have to work in cities. Streets, sidewalks, overhead and underground utilities are ordinary work enviorments were we all ply our trade/craft. I thought these would have been covered in the CA test. That would/should have been enough.
If I need to get more cetifacation I will. What gets me is that it is the ISA that is doing this to us, not the public. The CA program brought public awareness to the tree care industry in regards to proper treecare/saftey. I think we are all glad for that.


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## arboromega (Aug 7, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> I think what he meant was, certifed arborists should not be _considered_ tree workers. They've stepped into an elevated arena by virtue of their experience that allows them to pass a test that 1/3 don't. Everyone starts out as a tree worker. You graduate and earn the title 'Arborist'. Did I get that right Arboromega?
> yes, and said it better than i did.


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## lxt (Aug 7, 2005)

treeseer, your posts express an almost political propaganda in the absurdity of your ISA`s CA exam dah!!! multiple choice, & if climbing is not a requirement then the definition of an arborist has been clearly mistaken, since you & diltree have intellect beyond most perhaps you should re-write the definition CA,BCMA,etc.... tell ya what! new certification Ill proctor the exam, new title GALACTIC ARBORIST EXTROARDINARE, now folks this is resonable only $25 per yr. c`mon !!! Ill think of new certs. along the way will it cost? why certainly!! does the average homeowner care? NO! CA, was ISA`s hallmark and now they have cheapened it by creating one above it(plleeaasse) THE ISA IS A RIP OFF, wake up people, why a guy on this site told me the other day him getting certified was a req. for his managerial position, requirement!!!! nice, but not practical. this is nature folks(gods world) and if your so certified & caring why do we still cut down and prune the [email protected]#$ out of living trees. better yet. that majestic oak you cut back to the collar was done with a saw spittin out recycled oil!!! thats good for the enviroment uhh? I could go on but im sure my peers with great un-obtainable knowledge unto themselves and the cat like agility to run the canopy of trees will hopefully have a reply. those that think and dont do are 2nd to those that do while thinking. AHH WHATTA RUSH LXT.................


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## Shaun Bowler (Aug 7, 2005)

I have yet to hear any contractor, homeowner, publicworks dirctor, say,
"Wait a minute, we had better get a Board Certfied Master Arborist out here before we start".


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## treeseer (Aug 7, 2005)

Shaun Bowler said:


> I have yet to hear any contractor, homeowner, publicworks dirctor, say,
> "Wait a minute, we had better get a Board Certfied Master Arborist out here before we start".


Of course not. The cert is only 1 year old.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 7, 2005)

ISA certification is attainable for all who desire it. Without it, a credential in the field is a 2 or 4 year degree. Not every person has the resources for that. 

ISA started 20 years too late. If certification was required to be part of this working profession from long ago, then it would be accepted as the norm. But it's recent, and designed for men who wish to further their careers.

It's not being imposed on you, so why the resistance? ISA has left it optional and voluntary, so what exactly gives you the right to badmouth the program? These are good people trying to give guidance and direction to an essentially unregulated industry.

Unregulated, but that's the U.S. You try going to work doing what you do in United Kingdom. You'll begin to appreciate some of the latitude we have. Unfortunately, lack of regulations can let the hacks enter and proliferate unchecked. This undermines our entire industry as bad tree work is a reflection on those of us doing good tree work.


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## Shaun Bowler (Aug 7, 2005)

I think it is great that you are a BCMA. 
It is fun to put those titles on your business cards, and patchs on your shirts. 
It takes a lot of work and dedication to care enough about your career to be available for the next step.
Are you a CA or CTW also?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 7, 2005)

Who, me?


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## diltree (Aug 7, 2005)

*Lxt*

Why the attack on treeseer and myself....because we believe in certification????? Sorry man, In many trades much less complicated then ours, licensing is required, so whats wrong with setting a standard in our trade with certification???? I don't see any negatives with the C.A. and the B.C.M.A., only positives. Further more, currently i don't feel i know enough to become a B.C.M.A, but the certification gives me a goal for the future to motivate my continuing education in the trade. There is so much to know about our profession, certification simply sets a standard, separating the qualified from the hacks....If your qualified and knowledgeable enough to become certified i don't understand why you would be against it...it sets you apart from BS artists that know very little, about tree care.


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## treeseer (Aug 7, 2005)

shaun yes you gotta be a ca to be a bcma. oct 9 i take the ctw test. the muni test has almost nothing about trees in it. payin for these tests and renewals is trivial compared to overall expenses.

lxt no offense taken. the isa is far from a ripoff. the cuts i made on that oak were made by a handsaw; no oil spewed. :angel:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 7, 2005)

Shaun Bowler said:


> It takes a lot of work and dedication to care enough about your career to be available for the next step.


It takes signing up for the test and taking it. You may have to stretch a bit, and meet other guys doing the same thing. There, of course, is the drive to get to the test site. It's not a lot of work and commitment. Commitment, yes, but honestly, compare the amount of work to ANY other profession that has certification and find out if those certifications are optional or required. I'll answer that for you. They're required. You pass the certification exam, or you do not work as a professional in that field.

We have it so easy, I can't even see why there is a complaint.

Shaun, you're a brother. My heart is only for the betterment of the industry and for the progress and improvement of the men serving the trees.


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## blackwaterguide (Aug 8, 2005)

*c.a.'s*

Fellas, maybe you've noticed I'm not one for contention. Yes, of course, educated arborists can work in trees. Why not? However, if you've put in your years as a logger, climber, and machinery (skidder opeator/owner) I do not believe you must needs do a 50 ft footlock climb to prover yourself a qualified arborist. I very much believe in education and, furthermore, I am of the opinion that a qualified arborist does not, in every case, need to drop a hundred logs a day or climb seven trees a day. I've met many men capable of much greater endurance and yet they do lack thourough understanding of aboriculture, horticulture, and biology. My only point is that education, while considered by many to be expensive, find that, at my late age, ignorance has a very dear price indeed. Please take no offense at my opinion as it may only be relative to my position. 
Love this site. My very best wishes to you all. Our hearts are in the same place.


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## arboromega (Aug 9, 2005)

you guys worried about cost do know that your yearly dues can be written off on your taxes as a business expense.
also almost every govt contract i have been apart of has requested at least one ISA certified arborist be present on the job site during work hours. many residential clients here in va are also familiar with the isa and the value of certifications.


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## NYCHA FORESTER (Aug 9, 2005)

ISA CA is considered the minimum qualification for many agencies.

Until ISA comes up with an ethics board or similar body to review questionable practices by many CA's (and revoke them) it will largely be viewed as nothing more than a piece of paper that a salesman uses to gain the confidence of an unwitting home owner; which is a shame because the majority of the CA's out there are straight shooters. 

ISA has to show some sort of commitment in rooting out these bad apples.


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## xtremetrees (Aug 11, 2005)

Iv'e gotta wait 3 years before I can even apply to be a BCMA
Being a C.A. restricts me in my ability to work for others, I'm in the largest metro area of my state and ethically I can only look at being employed by only 2 or 3 companies now. Its a good thing I have a 1500 $ removal to do on my own this weekend or I'd go hungry. I cant even do sales now not that I ever have sold for a tree company, few trim spikeless.


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## treeseer (Aug 11, 2005)

xtremetrees said:


> Being a C.A. restricts me in my ability to work for others, I'm in the largest metro area of my state and ethically I can only look at being employed by only 2 or 3 companies now. .


And why is that again? xtreme, it's hard to figure out what you are trying to say; how about taking a little more time in writing your posts, so we can understand?


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## diltree (Aug 11, 2005)

Do you have to be a C.A. for so many years to stand for a BCMA exam????? Is that what you mean Xtream???


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## xtremetrees (Aug 12, 2005)

I can count on one hand the companies that do not spike their trims. I'm guessing there are 5-7 companies that dont spike trims, the other 134 companies do spike their trims Treeseer. 

Diltree
Yes from what I understand the wait is 3 years after C.A. before you can test for BCMA.

I wish I'd never given so many years to the Guard and Navy. I'd be pushing my own sales and crew.


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## xtremetrees (Aug 13, 2005)

Tree Co,
Perhaps your right about central and the south but the North is way behind the times Maybe I am being a bit xtreme however, I'm under the understanding theres no market for it up here. Ive talked with several Co's that agree the market price has been driven down north of you that tree care has been throw out the window for the almighty dollar with the exception of a very few.
I have to remind myself that is their business not mine to spike or not.
No Offence Tree Co my hats off to you and a very few others that dont spike trims. 
I feel we need a education program as the city expands rapidly towards the mountains.


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## treeseer (Aug 13, 2005)

xtremetrees said:


> a very few others that dont spike trims.


streme, I also have questions about your statistics. Have you taken a survey or what? The majority here don't spike trime.


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## diltree (Aug 13, 2005)

ya you Southerners are way behind us Yankees


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## lxt (Aug 16, 2005)

diltree, attack certification? no!! Im attacking the criteria that makes one certified. the problem with the ISA is their lobbyist attempts to have govt. agencies hire at least 1 ISA arborist for a job site, im sure they rather see more than 1 CA, their efforts to have twp`s & cities become ISA frontiers appalls me. why? because the fresh grad from local college who`s now an ISA CA with no real exp. is tellin 18,25 & 30+ year men/women how to do their job, these are the same people who consult then recommend me for the job, I thank them!!! but, it is a shame to talk the talk & not walk the walk. when I see an international consulting arborist champ Ill take notice, till then Ill be watchin the big boys play & learnin from them tree climbing champions! & treeseer I guess you dont use chainsaws uhh!! according to your post!!! my [email protected]# you dont. I think certification is good!!!!! but will need regulated, & lets base it on ones ability & knowledge and not membership dues. Take care be safe!!! LXT


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## treeseer (Aug 16, 2005)

lxt said:


> treeseer I guess you dont use chainsaws uhh!! according to your post!!! my [email protected]# you dont.


lxt, yes I use chainsaws when I have to, no problem.


> lets base it on ones ability & knowledge and not membership dues.


you do not need to be a member to be certified. I agree totally with you about the reliance on booklearning and would like to see more experience in the qualifications. I butt heads with deskjockey CA's all the time who are not very practical. For bcma the test is built so you cannot pass it without considerable experience dealing with trees in the field.


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## xtremetrees (Aug 17, 2005)

Until ISA comes up with an ethics board or similar body to review questionable practices by many CA's (and revoke them) it will largely be viewed as nothing more than a piece of paper that a salesman uses to gain the confidence of an unwitting home owner;

I agree totally friend

Is the ISA doing anything to regulate its own? No.Does it propagate dishonesty in order to furter education about itself? Yes.

TresserBMCA yes I've done sorta a survey of the tree Co's in my area and the Certifed Arborist sence I've gotten out of the National Guard. I happened upon it while looking for a job. Its quiet easy to do.


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## treeseer (Aug 17, 2005)

xtremetrees said:


> Until ISA comes up with an ethics board or similar body to review questionable practices...Is the ISA doing anything to regulate its own? No.Does it propagate dishonesty in order to furter education about itself? Yes. .


BCMA comes with a 12-page Ethics Policy that calls for stiff penalties for violations. If a CA messed up bad they should be reported, and the report followed up on. don't expect action after just one call.

Propagating dishonesty? That's a little strong, isn't it? There's no intent to keep bad actors in business that you know of is there?


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## alanarbor (Sep 14, 2007)

I'll be taking the BCMA exam in the couple months. $350.00 for the certifaction, the proof to myself and others that I'm not talking out my a$$ when I talk about trees? I can't ask for a better deal....less than a dollar a day. Sure I have to commit time and money to keeping it current, but I love the commitment to education that certification requires.

It's shameful how many certified arborists attend training just to skip out early and have someone else write their name on the paperwork. There are people who care, and then the people who do just enough to squeak by. (their work speaks for itself)

I've spent the last 13 years touching trees with my bare hands, chainsaws, handsaws, pesticides, fertilizers, air tools, compost, you name it.

This test means a lot to me, and I hope it will give me the ability to touch more trees and yes, make more money.


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## treeseer (Sep 15, 2007)

alanarbor said:


> This test means a lot to me, and I hope it will give me the ability to touch more trees and yes, make more money.


Yup it can do that. By verifying you are qualified to consult, your time is worth more. My bcma was a good investment, and I'll pay to re-up without (too much) pain.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 16, 2007)

I like the point system overall to be able to sit for the exam. My background is a squeek under being able to take the exams, but its nice that it raises the experience and background bar to represent that level of arboriculture.

Not sure if I'd want to persue that certification, but I support it fully.


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## alanarbor (Oct 30, 2007)

Well,

I just took the BCMA test today, and passed. Passing was kind of anticlimactic in a way, as the real hard part was deciding I was ready to take it.

So I guess it's beer:30 now!


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 30, 2007)

*Congrats!*

have one for me!


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## Job Corps Tree (Oct 30, 2007)

*Bcma*

The Best of Luck. Keep us informed on how it go's. I have looked at it but I think it is beyond me. GO FOR IT


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## treeseer (Oct 30, 2007)

Way to go, Alan. May it serve you well.  

Now let's keep after ISA to see that the cert is properly promoted.


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## D Mc (Nov 7, 2007)

Congrats Alanarbor!

My goal is to sit the BMCA test in another year. Becoming certified was a hard decision for me but has inspired me to keep learning. It has also given our company clout in handling situations within one of our local towns, dealing with the Public Works Dept and their sidewalk projects, talking with City Council members and helping to influence future policies. It really does help if you can say not only that you know your business but you have supporting credentials that back up the talk.

Certification has certainly been worth it for me and I look forward to "upping the bar" to the next level.

(Mrs.) D Mc
CA #RM-7117A


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