# Notch or not



## JAckal (Feb 21, 2007)

Hello,
I am new here. My experience is from reading and info on here. Your information that showed up in my search was excellent. 

The question is: I have been around chainsaws for about 3 years. I always try to use a Humbolt notch on every tree that is cut. Only 15-20 trees have been dropped by my saws.

My father-in-law insists that I am wasting time by notching trees. I have seen him fell oak trees that are 20+" in diameter by about 40' tall. He never notches, just cuts 'til the bar starts to pinch goes to the other side and starts cutting through with pressure from his shoulder to push it off.

I am a machinist by trade 23+ years, BIG equipment. This seems scary as hell to me.

Give me your opinions. From the search that I did on this site I am sure the majority will agree with me. 

No, he won't see your replys either.


Thanks,
JAckal


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## neighborstree (Feb 21, 2007)

notch !!!. his way is unsafe and will damage bars and chains . atleast from my experance.


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## sawinredneck (Feb 21, 2007)

Welcome to AS, first off!

I can only say it's a wonder he hasn't gotten killed by this practice! There are so many things that can go wrong with this practice I can't even begin to list them, I am sure others will!!!
Without some relief on the front side you have no control of where the tree is going, or what it will do while getting there! I used to use practice on small 10"-12" White Oaks trees, cut all the way then "force fall" it the rest of the way. I had a couple of them barberchair, split down the middle and half of it came back at me. Now no matter the size of the tree I cut some type of relief on the front side, be it a notch or just a scarf cut.
I am truely amazed a tree has never set down on his saw and teetered!! I had this happen once also! I cut a notch, but not big enough, the tree set back and just teeterd in the wind! Not a good place to be!!! Be careful, and don't follow his example!!!


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## Ianab (Feb 21, 2007)

> This seems scary as hell to me.
> 
> Give me your opinions



My opinion is.... you are right  

It's just he's got away with it so far, but no way I'd be standing anywhere near him while he's 'felling'

We might debate the type and size of notches, but everyone agrees you need some sort of notch and hingewood.

Cheers

Ian


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## ropensaddle (Feb 21, 2007)

*notch*

Use notch and also don't rely on pushing; a rope can be set
with a throw ball to ensure the tree goes where its intended!
the only time I won't notch is in an ice loaded tree. If its leaning away 
i will take my power pruner fully extended and scratch it until she pops,
in that way if it barber chairs i'm already thirteen feet away and not
near the explosion! I have bent a bar like that, to me small price to 
keep out of harms way; ice loaded trees are dangerous and often explode
as soon as they are touched with a saw so, the farther away the better.
if they are leaning toward a house get a bucket I don't climb ice loaded 
trees. On pushing; I once saw a man trying to push a tree three foot
in diam aganst a lean, the only thing that saved him is saw was pinched!
Even though he couldn't push he tried to cut again and I had to come to
his rescue set a rope hook to pickup and pull over . I asked why he tried 
to cut more and he said because it had not fell. Don't listen to people
not in biz ,read, ask and know before you cut you were right this time
read to find out why and its responsible to stop someone from doing
dangerous acts.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 21, 2007)

i'm with them; the notch/face will give relief to offer path of least resistance, and not have backpressure to override the constitution of the spar (of backpressure vs. forward pressure of fall) and BarberChair. Notching/ Facing (without dutching/ allowing horizontal cut to cross the more vertical) will also allow an inspection of the interior wood for dryness(loss of elasticity on tension side), decay(loss of both elasticity on tension side and firm push on compression side) or cracks (forming plural that could bind against each other instead of singular movement) etc.

Also, the width/ breadth of the tear/ hinge at felling gives steering and side to side stability; facing/notching allows you to dictate that (as well as how much the Center of Gravity/CG is undermined); rather than just allowing these factors at the depth in and breadth across that the tree leaves you with when it goes. So, making the face/ notch will allow you to dictate how far back behind CG hinge is at fall; and the expanse across; pulls/pushes from side to side.

1 thing that is given up the deeper you undermine the CG is the wedge to hinge/tear length; thereby it's potential leverage. Wedges are simple devices to serve the beast forward and keep against set back of tree. Though, if he cuts until bar is pinched a wedge will let him cut too far for his 'style'. A rope and throw bag are also cheap insurance. But, i caution against a rope pull too far below CG that i think would give more of a straight forward pull than flexing over in some cases.

The backpressure of your father in laws method, can give support to fall; but also throw some curves into it. Better left to expert choice and facilitation; on some trees and not all.

Trees are the largest organisms ever born; standing in the batter's box and betting you can shoulder over any of those over 22" in diameter is very chancey.

i think a conventional face is easier to make than humboldt, and this might relieve some of his arguemeant. In the conventional facing the weight of the saw can carry it down into the wood on the slanted cut. In humboldt, you must carry the weight of the saw upwards, this slanted/ longer than straight path.

Chainsaw Use Animations

Other Chainsaw Use Links

This is dangerous work; hunting and felling the largest beasts ever borne; larger than the dinosaurs. One should follow the rules; lessons paid for with lives; lest the numbers catch up with you!


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## Blinky (Feb 21, 2007)

The reason to notch is to open the face of the hinge so the hinge wood doesn't break until it has controlled the direction of the fall... it's a control thing. How much more trouble can it be to cut a notch than to potentially pinch your saw anyway?


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## John Ellison (Feb 21, 2007)

Next time your FIL hangs one up in another tree because he has no real idea where it is going, tell him that you are glad that his way to fall timber is so fast because you need a lot of extra time to get those hangers down.


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## Husky137 (Feb 21, 2007)

Like most FIL's, he's an idiot.


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## tek9tim (Feb 21, 2007)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Trees are the largest organisms ever born;



Negative. Correct answer there would be mushrooms.


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## ray benson (Feb 21, 2007)

Show your Fil ANY owners manual. They have directions on safe felling practices. It's only a matter of time before he injures himself or someone else. As a machinist you can relate to safe work practices. Here is a large document on safe felling practices. He may not be willing to look at it, but you may find it interesting.
http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf


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## computeruser (Feb 21, 2007)

tek9tim said:


> Negative. Correct answer there would be mushrooms.



+1.

Anyway, everybody else is right about the notch-and-hinge bit - they are important, often essential, and should NOT be skipped. Even on little 3" trees the no-notch technique is unsafe - a friend had his MS290 tossed about 25 feet when a 3" maple barberchaired, and he easily could have been hurt, too.

Everyone's first saw should come with a copy of Mr. Beranek's The Fundamentals of General Tree Work.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 21, 2007)

i'm well aware there are some obscure(?) underground mushroom bodies; but they just don't fit the imagery(of my chainsaw safety animations etc. of dealing with trees as the largest beasts ever borne; that we stalk with small saw as a call for safety mindset) or safety concerns; nor common generalizations. But, fair point none the less!


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 21, 2007)

This thread recalls a term I never learned the meaning.

"Stump jumping" - just what is involved in that? I think it means cutting down small trees without any finess, undercuts, etc. I have done that on really small stuff (ca 6") but only when there was enough lean to be sure where it was going. Kinda fun having the saw come free withe the tree cut clear through and not started falling yet. A bit on the stupid side though.

Harry K


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 21, 2007)

i think Barberchair happens when the push back of the forces in face meet the force of the tree pushing forward enough to override the constitution of the spar and give a 'split decision'/ compromise of the push forward/ versus the push backwards.

This tendency will then be dependant on a few variables; like the flexability/ stiffness(including dryness and temperature) of the wood, if the force is concentrated to a point or spread across the face, if there are cracks in the spar or other weaknesses, how hard the force is rushing forward etc. Without a face, what works well one day, at non-freezing temps, on uninspected wood(face allows inspection for dryness, cracks etc.), speed of back cut, species of wood etc.; may not work as well, or at all the next day/tree!

Another way to invite more of a BarberChair is to Dutch the horizontal cut across the full face; usually by sloppy cutting. But, this early close can give a jump; analogous to same in a horizontal limb to perform a 'snap cut' if we are talking in same terms. Differance is in a 'snap cut' the short limb is already committed to go away from you; in a jump or similair dutch the huge spar is not so committed and also teetering over you; and much larger in weight and leverage.

We can't say that these physics will never work in your favour; but we can say you are walking on much thinner ice; and inviting the numbers to catch up to you in these particular rolls of the die; so much as to become dicey.

Orrrrrrrrrr sumetin like dat!


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## ray benson (Feb 21, 2007)

turnkey4099 said:


> This thread recalls a term I never learned the meaning.
> 
> "Stump jumping" - just what is involved in that? I think it means cutting down small trees without any finess, undercuts, etc. I have done that on really small stuff (ca 6") but only when there was enough lean to be sure where it was going. Kinda fun having the saw come free withe the tree cut clear through and not started falling yet. A bit on the stupid side though.
> 
> Harry K



Hi Harry.
Gypo started a thread and posted some canadian stump jumping on pages 1 and 2.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=14148&highlight=stump+jumping


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## moss (Feb 21, 2007)

Tree Spyder, you deserve the Aboristsite Oscar for that comprehensive chainsaw use tutorial, really nice job. Thanks for posting it.
-moss


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 22, 2007)

ray benson said:


> Hi Harry.
> Gypo started a thread and posted some canadian stump jumping on pages 1 and 2.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=14148&highlight=stump+jumping



Thanks. I shudda used the search function. I tried it on another subject the other day but it wasn't working.

Harry K


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## tek9tim (Feb 24, 2007)

Tree Spyder: 
Great post. Good description. 

_All_ mushrooms have an extensive underground body. The part that is above ground is merely the flower, if you will. The world's largest is on the Malheur National Forest in Oregon, and covers 2200 acres.


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## windthrown (Feb 24, 2007)

*Fungal mass...*



tek9tim said:


> Negative. Correct answer there would be mushrooms.



You mean fungal mass. Mushrooms are only the 'flowering', or fruiting tops. 

Also he said trees are born... odd thought that. I guess he was referring to ents.


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## windthrown (Feb 24, 2007)

*Face cut a notch in that tree!*

As others here have said, notch face cuts and then back cut with a hinge will give you far more control in dropping a tree. A Humbolt cut is fine. Anything bigger than 8 inches and I face cut a notch 1/3 the diameter of the tree, and then make a back cut one to two inches above the notch to make a hinge, and fell that sucker right where I want it most of the time. In leaner situations where the bar might get pinched or you need more control where it might get hung up or roll out, use a bore cut instead of a simple/single back cut and leave some hold wood on the opposite side of the notch. Then cut the hold wood when you are ready to drop her. Watch out for dutch cuts (overshoot of top or bottom face cut into the tree). They can cause problems. 

Here is a site that I found from our friends in Canada that made it simple and easy to follow using diagrams on how to fell a tree in various situations, and what we are referring to in cutting here: 

http://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/safety/treefelling.html

I tested several of these methods on stumps that I wanted to lower and some large diameter snags and spars that were about 10-20 ft tall. The more cuts you make the better you will be in the long term, and the more likely you will live to tell about it. I dunno about your father... man... what can I say? Around here they say that you are not an experienced sawyer until you cut a tree that spins completely around, falls 180 degrees of where you wanted it to land, and hits the ground exactly where you laid the chainsaw down. Maybe he should watch the movie, "Sometimes a Great Notion?" One barberchair is all it takes... then again, I guess you could nail his arm to a logging barge and head to the mill?


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## pbtree (Feb 24, 2007)

*NOTCH *- *Always*, unless you enjoy playing Russian Roulette...


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## JAckal (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks for all the info, everyone. I will continue to notch, but I will use an open face notch now. After viewing the helpful links, I noticed that my notches have a small "dutchman". When cutting the Humboldt notch you can't see the crotch of the cuts. In my past cuts I always had a dutchman that was about 3/8" deep and the width of the chain. There never was a problem, but if let go it could get worse and become a problem.

Now I will start taking the saw and clean out the crotch where the two cuts meet in the notch and "Let 'er Rip".


Thanks,
JAckal


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## Frank Boyer (Mar 4, 2007)

computeruser said:


> +1.
> 
> Anyway, everybody else is right about the notch-and-hinge bit - they are important, often essential, and should NOT be skipped. Even on little 3" trees the no-notch technique is unsafe - a friend had his MS290 tossed about 25 feet when a 3" maple barberchaired, and he easily could have been hurt, too.
> 
> Everyone's first saw should come with a copy of Mr. Beranek's The Fundamentals of General Tree Work.



I was trimming a 3" branch on a Madrone stump yesterday and did not do a face cut. It came straight down and landed about 6" from my foot!!! Always do a face cut.


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## Husky137 (Mar 4, 2007)

JAckal said:


> Thanks for all the info, everyone. I will continue to notch, but I will use an open face notch now. After viewing the helpful links, I noticed that my notches have a small "dutchman". When cutting the Humboldt notch you can't see the crotch of the cuts. In my past cuts I always had a dutchman that was about 3/8" deep and the width of the chain. There never was a problem, but if let go it could get worse and become a problem.
> 
> Now I will start taking the saw and clean out the crotch where the two cuts meet in the notch and "Let 'er Rip".
> 
> ...



An open face is not right for every situation. Sometimes it is important to have the hinge snap and the tree to come off the stump.


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## Barry Stumps (Mar 4, 2007)

I am fairly new to felling. I see alot of videos of the notch around 3 or 4 feet from the ground. I have always made my notch about 1 ft or less. Is there an advantage to the higher cut for felling or is it better for getting out of the way faster in case of bargerchair.


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## smokechase II (Mar 4, 2007)

*higher or lower*

Lower can mean greater wood utilization, as in lumber.
Higher could be safer as it is easier to look up and escape.

If you're going to firewood or just remove a tree/snag, think about a stump height where you can stand comfortably with knees slightly bent. You get it down, then deal with stump height after tree is safely down.

It can be a lot more complicated than that. 

All the best


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