# Oil Fuel ratio - OEM vs Farmertec Kit



## Axotopia (Sep 21, 2018)

Just browsing on Huztl's website and noticed the assembled MS660 and 372 clones (G660 and G372) both indicate a fuel-oil ratio of 25:1. Leads me to wonder why the big difference between Stihl & Husqvarna calling for 50:1 and Huztl using AM parts calling for 25:1.
The Huztl saws are assembled from AM parts that are close replicas of OEM, but probably with slightly looser tolerance. My ignorant mind assumes less precision should require less lubrication, maybe I am wrong.
Unlike Stihl, which dictates the engine oil specifications to use on their saws, Huztl's customers also consist of less affluent folks in developing countries, and may use whatever oil is available, let alone an EPA-like regulations. Thus the reason for a 25:1 mix as a worse case.
Wonder what you think is the reason for 25:1, which seems excessive amount of oil, and could cause carbon built-up and fouling. Also, would a chainsaw made from AM parts survive running at 50:1 ratio? Help educate a CAD newbie on some of chainsaw basics. Thanks.


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## Conquistador3 (Sep 21, 2018)

You generally indicate a higher oil to fuel ratio when you are either not sure of what oil the end user will put in the premix or are not sure of whatever you assembled. 
Seeing how much time and money people sink into these Huztl kits due to poor fitting/shoddily made parts I'd say the later.

And another thing. In EM's, where people make a livelihood with chainsaws, you will very rarely, if ever, see a Chinese chainsaws in the field. The Stihl 070/MS720 is probably the most common saw in the world, followed by older Echo/Shindaiwa such as the CS1200/1201 and the 488. Chinese firms have been salivating to get into this market but they still have a very long way to go.


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## 67L36Driver (Sep 21, 2018)

Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo etc. have to please the EPA, hence the 50:1 mix.

The rest of the world, not being burdened by such issue, can mix what works for them. [emoji108]


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## blsnelling (Sep 21, 2018)

Because the Huztl parts are inferior to OEM, thus requiring additional protection.


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## Thoroughbred (Sep 21, 2018)

I think the general wisdom seems to be 40:1 for FarmerTec stuff just as a little extra protection. 32:1 if milling since that’s a rougher environment for a saw.


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## Ketchup (Sep 21, 2018)

Interesting. I agree that Farmertec needs to compensate for lack of precision. The pistons are especially bad.

I also agree that EPA regulations have changed mix ratios dramatically in the last 30 years. My Homelite Zip runs 12:1 SAE 30.

Especially in smaller carbs I notice major differences in tune based on mix ratios. In the past I have found Huztl carbs to be next to useless. I wonder if running a 25:1 ratio would improve their performance. I rarely run a AM carb, but next time one comes through I'll try it. 

Has anyone been running 25:1 in a clone?


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## Conquistador3 (Sep 21, 2018)

Zenoah and Echo started recommending 50:1 premix before Euro emission regulations came in being. I have an old Echo multitool powerhead whose bulky owner's manual clearly states 50:1 premix when using "JASO-FB rated synthetic-based oil". 

I've run 50:1 premix for over 20 years. I am yet to experience one of the alleged nefarious effects of following what's written in the manual, but I don't **** around with my tools, store them without fuel and instead of mixing large batches of premix I do it in 2-5 liters installments according to need. 
The only problem is that since ethanol hit our shores carburetors seem to last a whole lot less before overhauls/replacement, but oil has nothing to do with it. Politics on the other side...


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## Ketchup (Sep 21, 2018)

I like 50:1, though my friends give me a hard time. I wouldn't put in my Zip, but I run it in my modern stock saws. I find it easier to tune and the saws run a little faster.

Milling with 32:1 is kind of like working out in a gas chamber, but my Mill saw is ported so I run 40:1.

Would running a thicker mix help protect from ethanol damage? Doesn't seem like it. I think the main thing is sloppy tolerances want more lubrication. Still, if the carb is engineered for 25:1...


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## NSEric (Sep 21, 2018)

I think all the Chinese made 2 strokes recommend 25-1.
They use sae30 oil for some reason in china not good premix, at 25-1 you can run crap oil without killing the saw.
I run 40-1 in my Chinese saws without issue. I either use left over dirt bike gas or mix up some saw only gas with stihl premix.


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## rayjay257 (Sep 21, 2018)

We started running 50:1 using Golden Spectro oil in about 1973 or so in dirt bikes. MX bikes make a lot more HP/CI than chainsaws do, even back then when they were air cooled. 

Part B. Take a container and put 25 oz of gas in it. Take another small container say 3 oz capacity and put 1 oz of oil in it. Then just look at each one. Even at this super rich mixture there is not much oil in all that gas. It's really amazing how long they last on such little oil.


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## HarleyT (Sep 21, 2018)

Pretty much a silly topic.....


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## ammoaddict (Sep 21, 2018)

I pump .9 gallon non ethanol 90 octane gas and 1 small bottle of Stihl ultra and 2oz seafoam. I use it in all my 2 strokes, Chinese, Swedish or German.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Charles Bale (Sep 22, 2018)

Same here, .9 to a small bottle, or I do 3oz/gal if I am using H1-R

Haha, Golden Spectro! Mixed my first batch in 75' love that stuff! Smelled great coming out of jap mx bikes! I think I did 42:1 back then too!


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## Cliff R (Sep 22, 2018)

Not really a silly topic but it does get kicked around, thread starters "beat down" and considerable coverage with varying opinions, etc.

Even though I work on power equipment daily and own a lot of 2 stroke stuff I can't get my head wrapped around how it survives with the only lubrication being a little oil thinned out in a butt load of gasoline. With the piston coming to the top of the hole nearly 100 times a second you'd think the rings and/or bearings would seize right up.

Anyhow, dating clear back to the early 1970's when I first started cutting wood to heat my parents farm house, then a few years later my brothers and my own, I've ran 40 to 1 mix in the highest octane pump fuel available. I also keep all of my saws and other 2 stroke equipment in perfect tune, never allowing them to go lean or free-rev at no load without "four stroking" just a tad. We cut well over 100 cords a year between myself, my brother and our sons. It's usually a group effort, as all of us heat with outdoor boilers. We own/manage several hundred acres between the four of us, and with all the Ash trees that need to come down our work load has more than doubled in the last couple of years.

Have had ZERO issues in all these years and never once seized a piston or smeared any aluminum over the rings and lost compression on anything. Never had a bearing, crankshaft or even a crank seal failure either. My 480CD has been in service since around 1980 when purchased new, has at least a zillion hours on it, and still has the original fuel line and pick-up in the tank, and never had a carb kit put in it either. It gets a steady diet of 40 to 1 mix, ALWAYS Husqvarna's best or equivalent, and I er on the richer side of 40 to 1 rather than the latter. I other words the large bottle of mix for 2.5 gallons which would yield 50 to 1 gets no more than 2 gallons of gas added to it. 

I keep the fuel fresh, never allowing it to get over 6 months old for any reason, and most of the time (we use a lot of it) it's only several weeks old before being used up.

I'll also add that without exception IF I'm going to take a piece of power equipment out of service for any long periods I'll get it fully warmed up, dump the tank and just as it stalls out pull the choke and suck all the fuel out of the carb as it dies out. This has proven to work with this new E-10 fuel and I have zero issues here. 

With that said not a day goes by a customer doesn't carry something up here to the shop and throw it on the counter that's FULL of "apple jelly" in the tank and carb all plugged up from letting it sit for many months and even years with this new fuel in it. Yes, ethanol is not your friend in a vented wet-flow fuel system unless you take steps to keep it in suspension and fresh.......FWIW......Cliff


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## Axotopia (Sep 22, 2018)

Just trying to summarize and understand from what I am reading ... in modern chainsaws with OEM or AM parts, it sound like consensus is 40:1 for general use and 32:1 for milling should run fine; add a bit of Seafoam for extra seasoning. 50:1 is more to keep the folks at EPA and EU happy.
With all the growing number of AM parts getting put on chainsaws on eBay and CL without disclosures, it's helpful for me to know the working parameters.
Thanks for the feedback.


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## ammoaddict (Sep 22, 2018)

Axotopia said:


> Just trying to summarize and understand from what I am reading ... in modern chainsaws with OEM or AM parts, it sound like consensus is 40:1 for general use and 32:1 for milling should run fine; add a bit of Seafoam for extra seasoning. 50:1 is more to keep the folks at EPA and EU happy.
> With all the growing number of AM parts getting put on chainsaws on eBay and CL without disclosures, it's helpful for me to know the working parameters.
> Thanks for the feedback.


I use my same 45:1 mix when milling with my Chinese kit 660. I just tune it a tad richer.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Trickyputt (Sep 22, 2018)

Ketchup said:


> Interesting. I agree that Farmertec needs to compensate for lack of precision. The pistons are especially bad.
> 
> I also agree that EPA regulations have changed mix ratios dramatically in the last 30 years. My Homelite Zip runs 12:1 SAE 30.
> 
> ...


Yes. I bought the g666 in the devilish blue but have yet to run a full tank of fuel. Detonation imminent, but if it survives 4 or 5 tanks I will lean it up unless I see reason not to, running highly specialized stihl oil vs 30w makes a difference perhaps. I have not even measured the operation temps on the saw yet.


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## Charles Bale (Sep 22, 2018)

Yup, 3oz/gal is perfect mix. motocross bikes, chainsaws, weed wackers.


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

blsnelling said:


> Because the Huztl parts are inferior to OEM, thus requiring additional protection.


So how would more or less oil matter?

Inferior metalurgy? Incorrect size/machining? Additional protection?? Does more oil mean more heat? Less?
Oil "quality"?

Please explain..........


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## ericm979 (Sep 22, 2018)

Axotopia said:


> 50:1 is more to keep the folks at EPA and EU happy.



Just because a lot of guys on the internet say it does not make it true.

The manual for my 025, made before EPA regs on chainsaws, calls for 50:1 if you're using Stihl synthetic oil, 25:1 otherwise.
I think the difference in oil ratios is because modern synthetic oils are that much better than cheap 30wt dinosaur oil. There are benefits to running less oil as long as it's sufficient for lubrication- there's less carbon on the plug, head and piston, and exhaust system. There's less of a chance of gumming up a ring (which can lead to seizure). When I was competing in motorcycle observed trials I ran 75:1 in my water cooled modern bikes and 60:1 in the air cooled vintage bikes. Trials bikes put out more HP/cc than chain saws but they're not run WFO as much. Never had an oil related problem.

40:1 isn't going to hurt anything other than having to remove the carbon from inside the engine more often. But 50:1 with good oil is plenty and will carbon up the engine less. I would agree with adding a little more oil for milling but again you're going to be taking that engine apart to clean it sooner.


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

But why is the extra oil better?


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

The engineers have written the tolerances/gaps of the moving metal parts with a certain level-viscosity of oil film to fill the "gaps" to reduce friction/heat, and optimize performance.
Then a bunch of toothless rednecks get on the internet and put up their personal "recipe" of oil/gas mix, and how they know much more than the engineers and everyone else.

Hell, more oil is better!!! Or, Amsoil at 100:1 is the best!!!!! 38.2/1 is the best!!!!!!

Whatever.......

Just run what the factory engineers say and be done with it!!!!


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

Silliness.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Sep 22, 2018)

There are too many variables to say a specific ratio should be standard across the board. You could either need more oil for racing or because of a poorly designed engine. Or it could be for targeting peak power for lower or higher rpm's. It may just simply be easier on the wallet to run 50:1. 
The epa doesn't demand use of 50:1, but it may imply that when most manufacturers are now using that ratio to meet emission requirements.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Sep 22, 2018)

Drink faster Harley...sweet dreams.


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

Lol. 
Your response was quite thrilling!!!!

So more oil means what?

Or "better" oil???????

Just toss around a random ratio and act like it means something????


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

Milling needs more oil because why?


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

More "protection"?????

What does that mean?


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

More oil means more heat, so 25:1 means what?


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

Here is an oldie!!!

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/subthread-32-1-vs-50-1-heat-data.6222/#post-53886


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## holeycow (Sep 22, 2018)

I think the youngsters simply think they don’t need as much lubricant as the oldsters.


This is my conclusion based on lubricant concentration/type/quality discussions here.


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## HarleyT (Sep 22, 2018)

holeycow said:


> I think the youngsters simply think they don’t need as much lubricant as the oldsters.
> 
> 
> This is my conclusion based on lubricant concentration/type/quality discussions here.




Are we still talking about chainsaws????


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## Chainsaw Jim (Sep 22, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> More "protection"?????
> 
> What does that mean?


It means keeping the gene pool clean.


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## Charles Bale (Sep 22, 2018)

I mix Chainsaw synthetic oil, walmart dino 2 stroke, and coconut oil 1/3 each at 47.25 to 1 (47.25:1) oh, and one pump of Vaseline "extra dry" hand lotion


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## Little Al (Sep 23, 2018)

Ketchup said:


> I like 50:1, though my friends give me a hard time. I wouldn't put in my Zip, but I run it in my modern stock saws. I find it easier to tune and the saws run a little faster.
> 
> 
> Would running a thicker mix help protect from ethanol damage? Doesn't seem like it. I think the main thing is sloppy tolerances want more lubrication. Still, if the carb is engineered for 25:1...


How does less oil help you you tune easier & the saw run faster?running lean will have more effect than oil ratio When the noted 2 Smoke guru's find the best result are the opposite .Sloppy tolerances are as such oil will neither do much to help but may have an adverse effect .Carbs aren't engineered for a particular oil fuel ratio they feed a mix amount through, the amount being regulated by the hole in the jet size saws tend to be tapered needle screwed in or out so increase/decrease the hole/size


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## Little Al (Sep 23, 2018)

Charles Bale said:


> I mix Chainsaw synthetic oil, walmart dino 2 stroke, and coconut oil 1/3 each at 47.25 to 1 (47.25:1) oh, and one pump of Vaseline "extra dry" hand lotion


What no hair Gel ?How can you even think you are getting PERFORMANCE  Consult Whata Plonckers book How to F***k up a 2 Smoke


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## Little Al (Sep 23, 2018)

The oil ratio debate will never be resolved I base what I do on many years of working on saws & racing 2 Smoke bikes (Road & circuit) some years back when the I use less oil in my mix pissing contests began I took note and did as my engine preparer suggested suffering no problems in engine failures in regard to mix ratio as my bikes were on par performance wise I stuck to them, a good few of the min oil mix brigade suffered oil engine related failures Bottom line your choice you are paying for the damage sustained by whatever the cause If you are happy & think your way is the way to go be happy with that


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## Canyon Angler (Sep 23, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> Just run what the factory engineers say and be done with it!!!!



That's just crazy talk.


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## TheTone (Sep 23, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> Are we still talking about chainsaws????



Or oldster spouses?


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## Charles Bale (Sep 23, 2018)

Please people!! cant we all just agree on my cocktail mix of 47.25 to 1 and throw in a little hair gel for good measure!!!


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## Ketchup (Sep 23, 2018)

Little Al said:


> How does less oil help you you tune easier & the saw run faster?running lean will have more effect than oil ratio When the noted 2 Smoke guru's find the best result are the opposite .Sloppy tolerances are as such oil will neither do much to help but may have an adverse effect .Carbs aren't engineered for a particular oil fuel ratio they feed a mix amount through, the amount being regulated by the hole in the jet size saws tend to be tapered needle screwed in or out so increase/decrease the hole/size



I find thicker mix causes my saws to fourstroke more, requiring a leaner tune. Add elevation and my needles end up below 1/2 turn out on 32:1. I don't know why. My thought is there is more oil in the gas during combustion, causing a greater need for oxygen because there are more BTUs in the fuel. Maybe I'm way off.

I don't know what the chinese are thinking when they build carburetors. Maybe 25:1 is thick enough for carb needles to have more slop and still regulate close to shut. Fine tuning a huztl carb on 50:1 is an excercise in futility. But the chinese need chainsaws too, they must make them work somehow. Just wishful thinking there I suppose.

As far as Farmertec machining, its well documented they make pistons and cylinders with poor tolerances and obvious blemishes. More oil probably doesn't help or hurt. Well oiled junk is still junk.


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## ken morgan (Sep 24, 2018)

Yee Haw another oil thread to F with the masses about....


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## 67L36Driver (Sep 24, 2018)

ken morgan said:


> Yee Haw another oil thread to F with the masses about....



Yes, even I have fallen into their trap.


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## NSEric (Sep 24, 2018)

If you want to get real technical checking to see if your using the right mix ratio you can pull the top end off the saw to check to see if the crank is oily and for a tiny puddle of oil sitting in the bottom end after running it for a while. If its dry you need more oil, ifs its oily your good to go
Guys have done this to 2 stroke bikes and found 50-1 isn't leaving much oil residue at all and 32-1 is leaving the crank oily, 40-1 is the happy medium and seams to be enough oil except for extreme use. The 25-1 the Chinese saws recommend is over kill to make up for using crappy oil.


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## Charles Bale (Sep 24, 2018)

3oz/gallon (42:1)


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## Trickyputt (Sep 24, 2018)

I am coming down on the side of 25:1 being the lowest common denominator given the at least 4 types of oil I know about. I saw an ad for a new amsoil 2 cycle oil stating up to 100:1 was ok.


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## Axotopia (Sep 25, 2018)

Sorry to get some folks here all riled up. I think my initial dumb question as newbie is what is the basis for 25:1 for the Huztl AM chainsaws when OEM is 50:1.
My guess is unlike OEM parts which is based on engineered specs, the AM parts are look-alike that is almost to spec but most likely slightly off. So should someone who uses a AM parts modify their fuel-oil ratio closer to what Huztl indicates at 25:1, or stick with the OEM spec of 50:1?

Although my OEM saws had all been running running at 50:1 with no issues, I did put piece together a MS200T with 90% AM part that had gone through 20 odd tanks of gas at 32:1; exhaust port is very dirty and oily, internals looks clean and but very wet with oil, but intake boot recently melted ... guessing it is AM off-spec issues. Think I am going to test this AM saw at 50:1 after i repair the intake boot to see how far it goes before the saw fails.


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## Trickyputt (Sep 25, 2018)

Axotopia said:


> Sorry to get some folks here all riled up. I think my initial dumb question as newbie is what is the basis for 25:1 for the Huztl AM chainsaws when OEM is 50:1.
> My guess is unlike OEM parts which is based on engineered specs, the AM parts are look-alike that is almost to spec but most likely slightly off. So should someone who uses a AM parts modify their fuel-oil ratio closer to what Huztl indicates at 25:1, or stick with the OEM spec of 50:1?
> 
> Although my OEM saws had all been running running at 50:1 with no issues, I did put piece together a MS200T with 90% AM part that had gone through 20 odd tanks of gas at 32:1; exhaust port is very dirty and oily, internals looks clean and but very wet with oil, but intake boot recently melted ... guessing it is AM off-spec issues. Think I am going to test this AM saw at 50:1 after i repair the intake boot to see how far it goes before the saw fails.



The short story from my point of view is that the ratio comes AFTER the choice of oil. The modern oils are highly expensive, highly engineered products that simply out perform older oil formulas. From what I have been checking out it may be erroneous to call them oils anymore. They are polymeric ester lubricant fluids at the high end and plant juice on the low end. Ratio is about the last thing to consider, since an oil type will come with a recommendation for its type and the oils are different. Nobody hardly talks about lubricity, and how it is an oil measurement standard, nor how it has been improved over the years in these new, modern oils.


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