# Subdue and merit substitutes



## woodville (Aug 5, 2007)

What products have you replaced subdue and merit with to save a few bucks? Inventory is getting low and fall is coming up quick.


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## mckeetree (Aug 5, 2007)

ImidiEpro


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## Ed Roland (Aug 5, 2007)

Subdue=Quli-Pro @ Lesco
Merit=Safari... find local source

may not save anything but substitutable.


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## BonsaiJedi (Aug 7, 2007)

*merit subs*

Xytect is equivelent and at a great price. Several formulations are available. Contact Rainbow Scientific for pricing.

FYI: Safari and MERIT are not the same. Safari is dinotefuron, not imidacloprid.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 7, 2007)

BonsaiJedi said:


> FYI: Safari and MERIT are not the same. Safari is dinotefuron, not imidacloprid.



Oh yeah. Im aware, but Safari _is_ a very effective systemic, acheiving control of many of the same pests. 

As a matter of fact, u turned me on to it a couple months back. I used it for hardscale on mature phellos. MERIT can not do THAT! Anyway thanks for the tip. I consider your advice golden on (AS).


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## BonsaiJedi (Aug 7, 2007)

woodweasel said:


> Oh yeah. Im aware, but Safari _is_ a very effective systemic, acheiving control of many of the same pests.
> 
> As a matter of fact, u turned me on to it a couple months back. I used it for hardscale on mature phellos. MERIT can not do THAT! Anyway thanks for the tip. I consider your advice golden on (AS).



Hey Woodweas...
have you had the chance to follow up on any of those treatments yet? I am curious to hear field results for hard scale from folks like yourself. If you haven't yet, keep me posted.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 24, 2007)

BonsaiJedi said:


> Hey Woodweas...
> have you had the chance to follow up on any of those treatments yet? I am curious to hear field results for hard scale from folks like yourself. If you haven't yet, keep me posted.



In the spring I plan on installing tape upside down on woody sections to see if i can trap any crawlers. I mixed @ high rate and expect good results. I drenched as opposes to grid injection to protect as much natural soil fauna as poss.


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## appalachianarbo (Aug 31, 2007)

I've been using Zenith from Bayer. Imidacloprid 75% WSP. Same product as Merit, without the brand name (=cheaper!)


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## Themadd1 (Sep 7, 2007)

SO I have been figuring out how much imidacloprid I need per DBH and the costs by using the following formula. What are your thoughts.
75% active ingredient
1.2 oz active ingredient per 1.6 oz package

1.6oz Merit package = $55.58
1.6 oz Xytect package = $22.68

for each 1" DBH I should be using 1 quart of mix.
1.6oz package mixed with 2 gallons water = 8 quarts per mix

SO one birch tree 4" DBH should receive 1 gallon of mix = 4 quarts
by this calculation my costs are as follows

1qt = .2oz of materials = $2.84 = 4 quarts = $11.36 = Xytect
1qt = .2oz of materials = $6.95 = 4 quarts = $27.80 = Merit

I think with the 75% active ingredient I am giving the tree .15 oz per 1" DBH? Is this correct? 

Thanks,

Themadd1


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## BonsaiJedi (Sep 7, 2007)

Themadd1 said:


> SO I have been figuring out how much imidacloprid I need per DBH and the costs by using the following formula. What are your thoughts.
> 75% active ingredient
> 1.2 oz active ingredient per 1.6 oz package
> 
> ...




Hey Madd1,
Should be even cheaper! 
One packet is enough to treat 24" DBH (I am assuming this is for birch borer?) so using your 8qts of water for mixing you could treat that 4" birch using 1 1/3 quarts of your solution rather than 4. Recalc your cost and you'll see it should cost you $3.78 in Xytect to treat that tree! Pretty sweet, eh?

See my logic below:
1.6 oz packet = 24 DBH"
24"/4" = 1/6 packet to treat that birch
$22.68(1/6) = $3.78

1.6oz packet in 8qts water
8(1/6) = 1.3 quarts of solution needed

Let me if you have any questions. Have a great weekend!


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## Themadd1 (Sep 10, 2007)

I thought the label stated between 24-48" per packet is that correct? 

I might be using the drench:
Black vine weevil
Birch borer
Aphids
Adelgid


Mainly any location where I can replace mauget injection with a drench. 
I cant stand having to pull caps. Cuts my day rate in half. 

Does the generic have the same residual as Merit product. I have heard there is good systemic control for up to three years. I know it takes a little longer to get through the system of the tree but less holes equal happier tree.


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## BonsaiJedi (Sep 10, 2007)

Themadd1 said:


> I thought the label stated between 24-48" per packet is that correct?
> 
> I might be using the drench:
> Black vine weevil
> ...



Madd1,
You are correct: 24" at the high label rate, 48" at the low rate. For boring insects (inc. the weevil) always use the high rate. For critters with the piercing/sucking/chewing mouthparts (aphids, adelgids, leaf beetles, leafminers) you can use the low rate. Also, many folks use the high rate for all large (>25") trees and when pest populations are high.

Xytect will have the same residual as Merit. Both products claim season-long control. The claims of multi-season (2+ years) of control are completely unsubstantiated. Researchers from Bayer and from Ohio State both said imidacloprid is not effective for control longer than a season. You may treat a tree this year and the insects may not reinfest the tree next year but is not because the chemical is still protecting the tree.
If you have two trees next to each other with a pest present, treat one and leave the other one untreated, the insects will obviously feed on the untreated tree. The next year the untreated tree is weakened from the previous year's insects, making it more preferable to the pest. The treated tree may appear to have less insect damage the following year but not because of residual imidacloprid levels but because the untreated tree is more susceptible. No reputable scientist believes multi-season control with imidacloprid. It'd be nice, but the data doesn't back it up.

We, too, believe non-invasive applications are preferred when the option is available. We sell a refillable micro-injector, the M3, but still recommend not wounding the tree unless absolutely necessary, and even then we do not recommend it as an annual treatment. Its all about using the right tool for the situation, not just using one application device for every tree issue under the sun.


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## Themadd1 (Sep 13, 2007)

THe information I have for soil drenching a tree is based on 1 quart per 1' DBH. This is why I was having problems with the math on this sevice. This why I was going with the 4 quart mix rate. 

Anyway Thanks for the info.


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## Themadd1 (Sep 13, 2007)

In terms of multi year control The data I have seen supports the multi-year control. 

Testing of the soil, and tissue shows a higher rate of imidacloprid at the end of the first year, leveling off for a year and then decreasing over time. 

It could have just been prepaid non-scientific research. I am having an indpendent consultant in to discuss this program soon, so I will throw him the question as well. He gave me this info last year, he has been working for TCIA for a few years before he went solo. 

With a service like this I would sell it as a renewable service anyway because BBB isnt going to get the pesticide unless it is actually feeding in the cambium layer. I was under the impression that they bore into the deadwood so they do not die off.


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## BonsaiJedi (Sep 13, 2007)

Themadd1 said:


> THe information I have for soil drenching a tree is based on 1 quart per 1' DBH. This is why I was having problems with the math on this sevice. This why I was going with the 4 quart mix rate.
> 
> Anyway Thanks for the info.



With imidacloprid the water is just a carrier, the volume doesn't really matter. Whatever mixing ratio you use just get 1/6 of a packet onto the 4" birch and you'll be good to go. 

Be sure with any of the claims of multi-year control you are looking at residual levels of imidcloprid in the areas where the product is needed (i.e. claiming high levels of chemical in the foliage when you are trying to control trunk borers is meaningless). To date, there has been no published, peer-reviewed scientific data to support multi-year control that I am aware of.


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## greentree (Sep 13, 2007)

In Hemlock Trees, there is evidence that imidacloprid will last for multiple years. Not sure about other trees though.....


Please see the quote below from this website:


www.saveourhemlocks.org/controls/my_prop.shtml#treating



"Research is beginning to suggest that imidacloprid may be effective against the hemlock woolly adelgid at even weaker solutions than those recommended on the product label, but current advise is to follow the label directions. Research also suggests that imidacloprid taken up by the tree’s roots may be effective for up to 24 months. Root zone application is most effective from September through November."


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## BonsaiJedi (Sep 13, 2007)

greentree said:


> In Hemlock Trees, there is evidence that imidacloprid will last for multiple years. Not sure about other trees though.....
> 
> 
> Please see the quote below from this website:
> ...



You can apply one season and (esp. w/ HWA) knock down a population that may take another year (or several years) to build back up. That is not the same as multi-year control due to residual chemical levels. 
How one conducts the research will vary these results. If the researcher is only counting number of pests that will give one result versus actually quantifying the concentration of the chemical needed (where it is needed) to claim multi-year efficacy. Again, no published research as ever shown this.


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## Ed Roland (Sep 13, 2007)

For what it is worth... Dr. Don Booth @ Bartlett Tree lab facility published something claiming residual control [*several* years] of [certain insect] on [certain plant]. 

They may not take too kindly to my putting the data here on AS. I will check on this to see if I can share. They have a mighty powerful pool of lawyers and everystuff.


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## Zac (Oct 4, 2007)

My company recently swithed from Merit to Xytect. You can save alot money when you are buying as much as we are. The only difference I notice is that xytect tends to foam up more when in the agitation tank. It is kind of annoying to try to flush out foam at the end of the day.


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## Themadd1 (Oct 8, 2007)

For a cheap price get yourself some de-foamer. Most of the suppliers carry the stuff. It really helps out at the end of the day.


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## BonsaiJedi (Oct 8, 2007)

Zac said:


> My company recently swithed from Merit to Xytect. You can save alot money when you are buying as much as we are. The only difference I notice is that xytect tends to foam up more when in the agitation tank. It is kind of annoying to try to flush out foam at the end of the day.



Hey Zac,
Of the 100's of companies and offices currently using Xytect I only heard of the foaming issue a few times. It could be related to pH, water temp, agitation rate in your tank, etc. If you continue to have an issue with it and it's bugging you please give us a call and we can see if we can't help you resolve it. 1-877-272-6747
This is the only foam we want you to have:


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