# Pros and Cons of Forest Management



## Maldeney (Feb 16, 2009)

Hello all. I am looking to start a discussion about the "Pro's and Con's" of responsible Forest Management. This is focused on small scale logging or the benefit of logging the over crowded woods. From what I have seen in a woods a few miles from my house is that the very dense population has a lot of dead fall and "choked out" trees. Is this due to the population? With proper management will it improve the overall health of the wood lot and yield better logs in the nearer future? Is there also a benefit to the wildlife inhabitants? 

Looking forward to the reading!


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## Wishie22 (Feb 16, 2009)

Maine has an management program, other states as well.

Landowners receive tax breaks for taking part, harvesting by alternating species about every ten years (not exact on the stipulations). Wife's family is into harvesting them, suppose to check it out next time we're up that way. Was told the mills keep opening and closing (tough times for all).


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## gink595 (Feb 16, 2009)

Maldeney said:


> Hello all. I am looking to start a discussion about the "Pro's and Con's" of responsible Forest Management. This is focused on small scale logging or the benefit of logging the over crowded woods. From what I have seen in a woods a few miles from my house is that the very dense population has a lot of dead fall and "choked out" trees. Is this due to the population? With proper management will it improve the overall health of the wood lot and yield better logs in the nearer future? Is there also a benefit to the wildlife inhabitants?
> 
> Looking forward to the reading!




The pros I think would be letting smaller trees have a chance to grow while harvesting the older ones. But how do you know which ones should be plucked and which should stay???? 

I think wildlife would suffer, just the other day I cut down a Hickory that had a large split in it, when I looked in the split I see two eyeballs starring back at me, so there is a homeless squirl looking for new shelter

Would a thinned out woods mean better trees for the future or is it better to let the old healthy ones be and harvest the smaller ones


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## windthrown (Feb 16, 2009)

Depends on your stand on how you want to thin it. Out here after managing an 85 acre mixed tree stand for 4 years, I am in favor of clear cutting. More wood that way, better for the forest, and better for the environment . Yah, I know the environmentalists do not think so, but no other way of growing trees puts more boimass in the forest. No other way gets you the best trees either. Now that does not include old growth stands that you want to preserve, or younger stands that you want to leave in trees over time and not clear-cut. If I had 100 acers of trees, I would plant mixed stands of trees, and clear cut them in rotation of 10 acre parcels. 

The main problem with just harvesting the biggest and best trees is that after a few thinnings, you will have smaller and crappier trees. You need to leave some of the largest trees that nature would favor, and cull the mid-size trees around them. This is so that they are the ones more likely to reproduce and produce seeds for future generations of trees. Which is what you want. In some cases you might want to cut the largest trees if they are near death, or they are diseased or there is a nearby one that is in a lot better shape. It takes an eye and experience to thin a stand for the stand's sake. For the logger and the mill, they will want to high grade or select cut and just take the best and leave the trash for you to deal with in the stand. Again, that leads to a poor stand. 

In my experiece, when thinning a connifer stand for longer term clear cutting at some future point in time, you want to thin to leave the best trees, and thin to make room for them to grow at an optimal rate. If you do not do this, you will likely wind up with what is called a stagnant stand. The trees will basically stop growing at a certain point. One or two thinnings are required in a clear-cut and replant 40-60 year cycle. 

I have also thinned old growth oak mix stands. In that case we set aside 5 acres in our forest plan, and had the state forester change our forest plan to reflect that. A forest plan is required in Oregon for property tax-deferrals on parcels, and depending on the county, they can be as small as 2 acres. At any rate, in that old oak stand, the fir trees were growing over the canopy and choking out the oaks, which were about 100 feet high. Those oaks were over 400 years old, and presumably they were that age becasue the Indians in that area had burned the area for hundreds of years to create an edge-effect for hunting grounds. Withouth the fires, the connifers grow and crowd out the oaks, maples, madrones, and other lower groing trees. So we went through and removed all the dead snag oaks in there first. We used that for firewood. We then went through and cut out all the grand and doug firs and hauled them out with the ATV or tractor. We cut the tops and branches off and burned them in slash piles, and used the rest as firewood. What was left were a mix of mainly California black oaks, some Oregon white oaks mixed in, and a few madrones and bigleaf maples. That area is now also fire-proof as a result of our removing the firs. If a fire had gone through there with the firs being anywhere from 20-120 feet high, they would have gone up like torches and burned the oak canopy as well. Now is a fire goes through there, there is just grass and bruch on the lower story, and the oaks will not burn in a wildfire. 

Well, enough for now... I subscribe to the George Fenn method of planting and harvesting trees. Do a google seach on him and he is all over the place. I met him and his wife, and did a tour of his 400 some odd acres of trees in Elkton, OR a few years ago. He gets faster growth, shorter harvest cycles, and better quality lumber from planting a mix of connifer species, fertilizing, thinning, and smaller parcel clear cut logging. He is an amazing guy, really. Controversial as all get out. But I think he is right about how to grow trees for commercial use.


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## slowp (Feb 17, 2009)

It depends what you want your wooded area to be. I have a very small parcel and most is on steep side slopes. I'm building a house on the top of the little ridge. Because I want privacy, and the hill to be stable, I'm pretty much leaving it alone. The cottonwoods pump out water and although I'd like to get rid of them, I'm leaving them. I don't want my hill to slide down on the neighbors. 

Now, on the stable part, there's root rot and trees might hit the house so I've been falling them. They aren't worth anything so I'm cutting them into firewood. I'll plant Western Red Cedar there. 

Studies are starting to show that cleaning up your woods can affect the soil productivity. They have been overcleaning the forests in Germany for years and tree growth is now suffering. We haven't been practicing forestry as long so can't show those effects yet, except on the Christmas tree farms. The Christmas tree farms are also missing nutrients in the soils. 

However, big game animals don't like a lot of slash to climb over. So, you have to figure out what you want to do. That is the starting point--What do you want your outcome to be?


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2009)

slowp said:


> So, you have to figure out what you want to do. That is the starting point--What do you want your outcome to be?



What she said. What are your goals? Are you a landowner or just curious? There's good information to be had on this site. You might try posing your question in the Tree Health thread or maybe the Homeowner thread...a lot of arborists hang out there.


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## Maldeney (Feb 17, 2009)

Gologit said:


> What she said. What are your goals? Are you a landowner or just curious? There's good information to be had on this site. You might try posing your question in the Tree Health thread or maybe the Homeowner thread...a lot of arborists hang out there.



Good question!:chainsawguy: Myself and a friend currently just cut firewood for our own furnaces. That is just where it has begun for the both of us... As with anything else we have ever seemed to get ourselves into we always find that we need to learn more do more and get more involved.

So with that being said we are currently cutting in a stand spread over about 100 acres or so mixed with Elm, Oak, Hickory, Cherry, Maple, Sycamore....ETC. We are not looking currently at logging in the traditional terms of going to the mill but with us, as said before, you never know. This stand has not been managed in anyway for atleast 15 years. I would beleive that it has not been managed for much longer than that but I don't have factual information regarding. I am looking to create a heathier cleaner faster growing stand. :dunno: Gink Help me out here..........


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Feb 17, 2009)

Since your from Indiana I will assume you have a hardwood forest. Heres what we practice in Northern Hardwoods here for management and what I will speak too. 

We thin out the worst quality and unhealthy trees first. This leaves the stand with healthy productive trees. After marking those individuals if we need more removed (trying to reach out target basal area) we start marking across the diameter range so that you aren't left with a stand of all small or all large trees. 

After a few rotations (usually 10-15 year rotations) we are then left with very few unhealthy trees, so the timber quality and volume harvested; and on the stump is increased. Forests here that have been managed produce lots of veneer, and #1 sawlogs. But at the same time aren't just stands of huges trees, they are diverse in their size and species compositions. 

This has positive effects on many wildlife species, but negative on others. When you open small gaps in the canopy then new regeneration has a place to start (which is perfect deer, and grouse food and habitat). We usually spec the slash (tree tops) be ran over with the equiptment to get it closer to the ground, this leaves brush piles for rabbits, squirrels, etc. But opening the stand can allow predator birds access to eat the squirrels and rabbits. So its a game of trade offs when it comes to wildlife.


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## goatchin (Feb 17, 2009)

:agree2:

our woodlot was/has/is managed just like Chevy stated. Remove the crappy undesired trees first (thinning, culling) then every 10-15 years i believe we do a harvest through the size and species spectrum to maintain a diverse stand of size and species.


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2009)

Maldeney said:


> Good question!:chainsawguy: Myself and a friend currently just cut firewood for our own furnaces. That is just where it has begun for the both of us... As with anything else we have ever seemed to get ourselves into we always find that we need to learn more do more and get more involved.
> 
> So with that being said we are currently cutting in a stand spread over about 100 acres or so mixed with Elm, Oak, Hickory, Cherry, Maple, Sycamore....ETC. We are not looking currently at logging in the traditional terms of going to the mill but with us, as said before, you never know. This stand has not been managed in anyway for atleast 15 years. I would beleive that it has not been managed for much longer than that but I don't have factual information regarding. I am looking to create a heathier cleaner faster growing stand. :dunno: Gink Help me out here..........



I'm not familiar with most of the trees you're dealing with but your goals sound manageable. Look at it kind of like gardening...just on a bigger scale. Get rid of the junk, promote the growth of the healthiest of the stand, and seek advice when you have questions. If your state has an agricultural advisor it might be a good place to start for literature and guidance. Timber enhancement is particular to each geographic area, soil type, timber species, weather, a whole host of things. Gardening...just really big plants.

There's quite a few people on AS from your neck of the woods and I'm sure some of them can give you more site-specific information than I can.

Good luck...it's efforts like yours that will keep timber harvest sustainable. Let us know how it works out.


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## corsair4360 (Feb 17, 2009)

*Stand Management*

My experience is that the management plan for a portion or all of a tract depends upon the owners objective, the actual site, slope, soil climate, etc, as well as the current stand characteristics (size, age and species). No one plan ever applies completely to another unless it is adjacent plots with very similar conditions and objectives.

To put it another way, you would not manage a Ponderosa pine tract in Northern Arizona the same way you would the same sized tract in Northern California, or one in Mississippi. Many things may be the same but others will be very different.

I have worked on management plans in Wyoming, and Mississippi over the years, with different owners, objectives and species. What we came up with in each case was quite different, but fulfilled the objectives.

My two cents.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 17, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Gardening...just really big plants.
> ...it's efforts like yours that will keep timber harvest sustainable. Let us know how it works out.



Thats it, and careful observation- of the good and bad. And don't let aesthetics fool you, residual stand damage and % site impact (disturbance) are significant elements. Good luck


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## windthrown (Feb 18, 2009)

Gardening trees is right out here in the wild west. We grow trees as row crops.


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## Maldeney (Feb 18, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Thats it, and careful observation- of the good and bad. And don't let aesthetics fool you, residual stand damage and % site impact (disturbance) are significant elements. Good luck



Could you elaborate a little?


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## 385XP (Feb 18, 2009)

Gologit said:


> I'm not familiar with most of the trees you're dealing with but your goals sound manageable. Look at it kind of like gardening...just on a bigger scale. Get rid of the junk, promote the growth of the healthiest of the stand, and seek advice when you have questions. If your state has an agricultural advisor it might be a good place to start for literature and guidance. Timber enhancement is particular to each geographic area, soil type, timber species, weather, a whole host of things. Gardening...just really big plants.
> 
> There's quite a few people on AS from your neck of the woods and I'm sure some of them can give you more site-specific information than I can.
> 
> Good luck...it's efforts like yours that will keep timber harvest sustainable. Let us know how it works out.


Sounds like good acvice. Clear cut and select cut definatlly has its place depening on the condition of the trees that you would leave.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 18, 2009)

Maldeney said:


> Hello all. I am looking to start a discussion about the "Pro's and Con's" of responsible Forest Management. This is focused on small scale logging or the benefit of logging the over crowded woods. From what I have seen in a woods a few miles from my house is that the very dense population has a lot of dead fall and "choked out" trees. Is this due to the population? With proper management will it improve the overall health of the wood lot and yield better logs in the nearer future? Is there also a benefit to the wildlife inhabitants?
> 
> Looking forward to the reading!



1. Small scale logging. While there are a few economic advantages, such as reduced moving costs when working only small tracts, with small scale logging, i.e. tractor logging, horses, what have you, these are not to be confused with the results of using modern and advanced equipment. Large skidders have much lower psi than small ones, and can pull out 5X the wood so where a spot may have one drag from a big ol' 640, it might take 5 passes for a tractor with already higher psi to get the same amount of wood. Or 14 passes with the horse. Now look at the $/ton or $/mbf issue and productivity: I believe the landowner is best served by the bigger more productive equipment that can harvest for a lower rate due to increased volume, equip. that will make the landowner more $ and is easier on the ground. Change the skidder to a dozer, and add a forwarder, and you have a much more advanced system AND it can do real closeout- proper BMP application of waterbars, etc. Maybe I'll log with horses one day, but not until I retire from logging.
2. Benefit of thinning. Yes. Usually. The best would be to find out the age of the stand. Likely it is an even aged stand, and I'm guessing about 35 years old. It was clearcut, thats why its even aged. If you catch it early enough, yes, you can definately transfer the growth put on many stems to those most desireable by killing the others. If its 50 years old and nothing is more than 14" dbh and only 60' tall, its such a low productive site that another clearcut is maybe all it can do, or manage the land for something other than timber- and you can still improve forest health even if its not good growing ground.

More later.


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## smokechase II (Feb 18, 2009)

*Healthy forest*

*"Hello all. I am looking to start a discussion about the "Pro's and Con's" of responsible Forest Management. This is focused on small scale logging or the benefit of logging the over crowded woods. From what I have seen in a woods a few miles from my house is that the very dense population has a lot of dead fall and "choked out" trees. Is this due to the population? With proper management will it improve the overall health of the wood lot and yield better logs in the nearer future? Is there also a benefit to the wildlife inhabitants?"*

=============

You need local knowledge. An extension agent from the University that has done this for decades, a local forester or maybe a landowner nearby that has a really nice looking forest.

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A couple thoughts, even thoungh I've never been to Indid:

1) A diversified species stand is more likely to survive an event. Ask about the insects and diseases that are the biggest threats in your area. Consider changing part of your forest over to some resistent/immune species. {Also, many hardwoods present less of a fire risk so look into individual species and if you can - scatter them throughout your stand.}.

2) A thinned stand is healthier because with less competetion for water, nutrients and sunlight each remaining tree is stronger and is less likely to be effected by insects and disease.

3) A thinned stand is less likely to suffer from fire - provided the slash is dealt with. A second Caveat: the more thinning the greater the chance of wind damage.

{Insect and disease are usually the first stage of destruction. Fire is the follow through. Your description sounds like it could lead to a fire event. However, Indid may not have that great of a wildfire risk so maybe you don't need to thin as much.}

4) When you do thin have a strong tendency to thin 'from below' leaving the best and bigger trees. Exception; those trees with disease that need to be removed for overall forest health. Exception to that; a healthy forest needs some dead wood - for instance Woodpeckers, a controller of insects need housing and habitat.

5) Don't think of the trees as a row crop. A forest provides a lot more than just wood. (Insert pinko commie enviro joke here). Don't think of the forest in terms of your life span so much as its trees life span.

6) Do think of the forest as a crop. Right now, with prices like they are, enjoy the luxury that much of the time you can wait a few years in forest management and the harvest does not need to happen now.

7) Think of part of your forest as a crop that pays for other improvements for that forest. Clean up the old slash as part of the logging for instance.

8) If you do wait for a logging management entry consider doing firewood clean-ups in the interim. Common sense.

All the Best


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## hammerlogging (Feb 18, 2009)

Smokechase said a lot of the facts just right.

Diversity, healthy forests, etc. Disease resistance, etc.

What you're looking for is TSI, timber stand improvement. So the question becomes a matter of harvesting to achieve the end goals. Harvesting costs money and thinning from below, removing the junk, is harder than waht is usually done, high grading. Thats why more efficient systems are necessary. Thats also why you have to look at the potential of the stand, to see if, when you're done with the work, whether harvesting can offset some or all of the costs, if the investment will pay for itself throughincreased value growth. On highly productive stands, yes. Marginal stands it is harder.

You're choices are cut and leave or harvest to offest the cost of the felling, god forbid make a profit. If harvesting is the option desired, then thisis where the critical stuff comes in. More than anything its the operator's discipline that matters most. Residual stand damage (scarred tree butts and broken canopies) and site damage- rutting across what % of the site- should remain under at least 6%. Harvest planning helps manage this. So do strict contract stipulations and performance bonds. Or a performance reward.

Start by marking your leave trees, healthy, vigorous , good growth form. Then start with crown release of these trees, open up the canopy around them as sunlight is a limiting factor on a dense stand. Don't forget about regeneration. So that you don't end up with a stand that continues to be even aged forever, unitl its all mature at the same time and has to be clearcut again, which takes away many of the other forest ownership assets. So this means, in what I expect you have with an oak stand, is some "group selection" mini clearings which produce different habitat and provide a chance for regen. You need about 35% canopy removal to get good oak regen within a selctive cut. If your stand is pretty young, this regen can wait for round 2, if you count the first treatment of crown release TSI as round one.

University extension is a great place to start, or maybe a DNR forester. There's lots of literature on uneven aged forest management as well. Plus all the alternative info on how to make the big bucks on mushrooms, herbs, grapevine wreaths, etc. Good luck


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## Maldeney (Feb 19, 2009)

Hammer and Smoke.......:jawdrop: Great explanation... Your estimation on stand age is probaly pretty close and there is a large section that has to be regrowth from a clear cut, because as you say everything is about even looking now. SO;

Open the Canopy
Manage the Equipment Traffic
Remove the unhealthy growth
Diversify!!!


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## woodbooga (Feb 19, 2009)

This has been touched on a little so hopefully I won't be too repetative.

It really comes down to what you want your forest managed for. Windthrown spoke in favor of clearcutting. If you want to manage for moose (at least up here), clearcutting some sizeable tracts is recommended.

Since you're managing for firewood, you may wish to pursue a slightly different tack. Up this way, an unmanaged acre of forest will yield a 1/4 acre of cordwood, while the yield is double if properly managed. 

If you hope to encourage wildlife diversification, don't feel too compelled to clean up the slash or tops unwanted for firewood. Heaps of piled branches and other "waste" makes great habitat for small mamals that help sustain larger game species higher up on the food chain. At least for a few years until natural processes break down their biomass into usable nutrients needed for the forest to regenerate itself.

Slash is messy and we humans like tidiness and order. But nature likes a mess oftentimes.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 19, 2009)

edit- you need to get down to about 35% canopy for oak/poplar regeneration in a select cut, otherwise you'll end up with a stand of shade tolerant species not so desireable (red maple)


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## lfnh (Feb 19, 2009)

*slash treatment ?*

Lot of good stand management suggestions in these threads.

I'd like to ask a three part question on treating slash in hardwood or coniferous forests. Leaving slash as cut; mechanical or hand piling slash; mechanical chipping of slash (delimber or tub grinding); burn slash in piles.

1. Skip block clear cutting for lumber/pulp.

2. Pre-commercial thinning for later years lumber harvest.

3. Selective cut for lumber/pulp.

What is the preferred treatment for fire management, wildlife support, forest health, regeneration ?

Kind of a wide question, but some practical observations/experience would be appreciated.


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## slowp (Feb 19, 2009)

lfnh said:


> Lot of good stand management suggestions in these threads.
> 
> I'd like to ask a three part question on treating slash in hardwood or coniferous forests. Leaving slash as cut; mechanical or hand piling slash; mechanical chipping of slash (delimber or tub grinding); burn slash in piles.
> 
> ...




This gets complex. Up Nort in Wisconsin, the fire season in the hardwoods wasn't very long. It was after snowmelt, before green up and just after the leaves had fallen, Fall. The slash was usually run over during the forwarding so that was the treatment. In the pines, there was controversy brewing. The fuels expert had started doing underburns, but the timber folks were concerned about charring. The paper companies did not want charred wood. 
That's something to be concerned about.

Out here, we've gone 180 from what it used to be. We're kind of an asbestos forest. We have fire danger for a few weeks in August when the east winds blow. Historically, the big fires have been few, but severe and erupt during those windy times. So, (I'm talking thinnings here) we just burn the slash that has accumulated on the landings and also have it hand piled and burned along the busier roads. Slash returns nutrients to the soils and also works well for erosion control. It is hard to burn anymore with all the air pollution regulation. Some of the private and state lands still try to burn after clearcutting. Sometimes they don't burn, but lop the slash so it lies closer to the ground, and that will keep flame lengths low if a fire should get started there. Slash makes for harder planting. 

So, there really is no preferred method. Once again it depends on the outcome. Some brush species that deer like will respond better after a burn.
Brush species that humans use for basket weaving and berries (huckleberries, yummmm) will get more vigorous after a burn goes through. Historically, the Indians burned the higher elevations around here to keep the huckleberries going. The cons of burning are air pollution, the chance of the fire escaping, scorching and charring the leave trees. For lumber, the charring isn't such a big deal but it also makes for scars on the tree which affects grade and defect. 

You can do an underburn in a thinning or partial cut if conditions are right and you have a crew that will control themselves, AND tree species that can take it. 

Burning is one big complex thing if you want to do it right.


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## lfnh (Feb 19, 2009)

thanks slowp. i'm still reading your post carefully.

So, is slash cut low and left on steep slopes, mostly for ersoion control (poor man's water bars) ?

On a level clear cut block, is slash generally burned just before the rain/snow season or during the rain/snow months, to get the new growth started the next summer ? (by new growth - browse, seedlings, and huckleberries or blackberries).

thanks


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## slowp (Feb 20, 2009)

lfnh said:


> thanks slowp. i'm still reading your post carefully.
> 
> So, is slash cut low and left on steep slopes, mostly for ersoion control (poor man's water bars) ?
> 
> ...




The last time we clearcut here was in the 1990s. When I was here in the 1980s we broadcast burned in the Spring, right after the snow had melted. This is better for the soils here. *The reason for broadcast burning was mainly to open up areas for trees to be planted*. We also got rid of heavy fuels. But, you need to know what was cut in those units. It was large old growth Douglas-fir and hemlock--slash would often be four feet deep or more in spots. Heavy slash. And there isn't much level ground here. 

Now it is all thinnings. We do let the loggers throw slash in the skid trails and skyline corridors. We encourage the mechanized sides to lay slash down in front of the processor to protect the ground. If you put it on the skid trails and are using a cat or skidder, the log end dragging clears slash off the trail pretty good. 

The wildlife biologists like some of the hand piles left for rats, squirrels, bunnies, etc. The landing piles usually don't burn completely, to get a landing pile to do that around here, you need to chunk it up with a piece of equipment. We don't do that anymore. 

Slash is left in the units to put some nutrients back into the soil. It decomposes pretty fast in our climate. It is a different world than yours. Steep slopes and conifers. That's it.


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