# This is if you have a policy on using earplugs.



## duartebigmex (Mar 15, 2005)

Got one question.

Last week i got a question from one of the trimmers.

He was ?ing our policy of using earplugs while running a saw in the tree.

It went something like this;

What if somebody is calling you from the ground to stop cutting a you can't hear him.
That's his reason on not wearing them what are your views guys.


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## dayman (Mar 15, 2005)

ANSI Z133 and OSHA have more concrete answers


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## Manco (Mar 15, 2005)

I would imagine that continuous exposure to loud noise will make it hard for him to hear anything.


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## clearance (Mar 15, 2005)

Hardhat with earmuffs and facescreen all the time using a chainsaw. And leg protection if you on the ground. Manco is right.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 15, 2005)

So in another way, what you're saying is a deaf person couldn't safely perform as a treeworker?


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## Manco (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm sure a deaf person could be a good tree person. Just never HEARD of one.
Talking about ear-plugs reminded me of a guy I worked with years ago. We took some big limbs out of an oak tree. Had to cut the big pieces in firewood and chip the limbs. He cut the big pieces too short and the boss asked me why he cut them so short. I was working on another tree and said, I don't know. By this time co-worker was chipping when boss yelled to him from across street. He came over and received one of the many a$$-chewings of his career,(with his earplugs in) when boss finished he said "If you can't hear me take them g. d. earplugs out of your ears" Co-worker assured him that he heard him. After boss left, co-worker said," I don't know why he thought I couldn't hear him, I heard him from across the street with the chipper going!"


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## Shaun Bowler (Mar 16, 2005)

This is a question I have wondered about. To be a good "tree worker", you have to be aware of your "space" always. Chipping brush ,falling, whatever...
My hearing is not what it was. However, if a groundy wants my attension, I dont find myself ever so focused on what I am doing at the moment in my space; that I won't hear a warning. It is probably why I still do what I do.


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## okietreedude1 (Mar 16, 2005)

Ive worn earplugs every day at work for over 10 yrs. My ears have gotten so sensitive, I put them in at home mowing the yard.

My personally feeling has always been (and this is what i tell the guys that complain about them): Someday I hope to have grandkids and if I do, I want to hear them call me grandpa.


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## vharrison2 (Mar 16, 2005)

How Sweet


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 16, 2005)

vharrison2 said:


> How Sweet




 



I wish I woulda used em 25 years ago!


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## alanarbor (Mar 16, 2005)

That's why you call stand clear before you start the saw, and make sure the drop zone is clear. If you'd rather go deaf, I suppose that's your business. 

But if it's your co policy, don't let someone talk you out of a sensible safe work practice 'cause they don't like it. There's other places out there that will let the climber do as he pleases, because he's the climber. Don't compromise on safety.


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## VTMechEng (Mar 16, 2005)

I started a saw once without plugs in and said F&$K that. The only times I can't hear someone with my ear plugs in is when I choose to not hear them but thats a whole nother story hehe.


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## John Ellison (Mar 16, 2005)

I've worn ear plugs since I started falling but like some others have said I wish I would have worn them before that. Occasional use still adds up to damage. To me it seems like they dampen noises, but you can still hear everything. Like Okietreedude said they are nice for mowing the lawn too, you end up more relaxed instead of tensed up trying to shut out the noise.

John


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 16, 2005)

When I can I like to wear a headset _and_ earplugs, especially using a large saw.


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## John Ellison (Mar 16, 2005)

The only problem I have with the head set muffs is my ears sweat too much  I can only wear them when its real cold.

John


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## alanarbor (Mar 16, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> When I can I like to wear a headset _and_ earplugs, especially using a large saw.



Harken ye well to the voice of experience!

Excellent advice!


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## Koa Man (Mar 16, 2005)

I HAD one employee who told me he didn't need to use ear protection because he was "used to loud noises."  

It is also recommended to carry a whistle to get the climber's attention because most people cannot yell louder than a chain saw.


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## chicken89 (Mar 16, 2005)

what about the idea of using just one ear plug? i usually do that because i load the chipper from the right side and saw from teh right side... thus i put the plug in the right ear. this way the ear closest to the loud noise is semiprotected, and i can still hear the boss yelling from up the tree.
there have been a few times that the boss yells from atop the tree about someone else not doing something safe and i had to get their attention. if i would have had ear protection on, i would not have heard the boss and the other person would have been injured


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 16, 2005)

One earplug?

No.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 16, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> One earplug?
> 
> No.



Studies have shown that machinists often have better hearing in the right ear because they are most often standing to the right of the headstock. That would put his left ear closer to the running machine and might account for the hearing loss. As it turns out, my hearing in the right ear is better than the left. Maybe some of the other machinists can confirm or deny this rumor. Needless to say, a chipper or chainsaw is generally much louder than a lathe or mill, so use your head.


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## underwor (Mar 16, 2005)

Since my hearing is very rotten from not reading this thread 30 years ago, I have found that the biggest problem I have hearing is with background noise. I think I can actually hear some one on the ground more clearly when I am wearing the earmuffs on my helmet. The groundie can always bouce a chunk of stove wood off you to get your attention!!!! (at least in our local trees).


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 16, 2005)

I can't stand to run a farm tractor without hearing protection unless I'm just moving it a few feet or so.


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## begleytree (Mar 16, 2005)

Why all the discussion?
It's your policy, he works for you.
No plugs x1= as5 ripping,and warning
No plugs x2= 1 day off without pay (a day in the week, not mon or fri)
It's a safety violation. The fact that he is too stupid to follow a small rule makes me wonder what else he does/doesn't do when you're away?
Just because he doesn't care if he can hear now, doesn't mean he won't sue you for wrecking his hearing later (by not enforcing the rules)

Surely you, as the boss, don't stand around discussing his reasons for not following the rules. Sheez, if thats happening, who's really in charge there anyway?

-Ralph


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## tophopper (Mar 16, 2005)

huh? 

whats that you say?


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## duartebigmex (Mar 16, 2005)

Begleytree am not sure if you understand the ?.

We know who is in charge out here!

The ? is how do you answer a smart as5.

Maybe you just don't answer and ignore the smart as5 or just say it's the policy and follow it.

people know a days just don't have common sense! :blob5:


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## alanarbor (Mar 16, 2005)

I would handle it like this.

"Not wearing hearing protection is not an option."

"What other way do you think we can address the problem of communication between ground and climber?"

If a dialog gets going, you may be able to pull off some good ideas.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 16, 2005)

okietreedude1 said:


> Ive worn earplugs every day at work for over 10 yrs. My ears have gotten so sensitive, I put them in at home mowing the yard.



I bought some muffs just for lawn and snow, since I did not want to wear my helmet 



> What if somebody is calling you from the ground to stop cutting a you can't hear him.
> That's his reason on not wearing them what are your views guys.



My answer to people who do not care is that I don't want to pay for his disability when hearing loss comes on. The policy is to wear required PPE, disregarding of said policy will result disciplinary measure to include suspension, and dismissal.


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## begleytree (Mar 16, 2005)

duartebigmex said:


> Begleytree am not sure if you understand the ?.
> 
> We know who is in charge out here!
> 
> The ? is how do you answer a smart as5.



I'm not sure if you understood the answer.
IF you're the boss, and he knows it, why is he being a smartas5 to you? Was this in proximity to the crew?

ARE you the boss?

or better still..
WHY is he still working for your outfit? or at least, why didn't he get time off to think about it?
See what I'm getting at?

[explanation] Blatent disregard for company policy, and smarting off to the boss about it when its pointed out SHOULD be the fastest way to the unemployment office I could think of. He gets away with this, what and better yet WHO next? You stop the little things right now, before it progresses into something bigger.
With this, you'll be making excuses to the new groundie who thinks it's too hot to wear chaps while busting up brush in the LZ. You'll end up wussing out and blaming it on osha and all the gov't rules. You wrote the policy, you enforce it. end of discussion.
Don't you have better and more productive things to do than debate company policy with an employee? Didn't he sign for and receive a copy upon employment? The fact that he didn't bother to read it doesn't negate the fact that it is still binding and enforced.
[/explanation]

BTW, I'm really not trying to start a fight with you, but, you asked for opinions. All you got from me was my honest opinion, and what I've done, and will do again, in your situation. I've seen this before with foremen under me. It always ends up being blown up to more than it was if its not corrected immedieatly. Be sure to give him another copy of the policy.
-Ralph


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## Brock2saws (Mar 17, 2005)

Wearing PPE takes getting used to. I wear earplugs because I want to protect my hearing. They don't make me any less safe.

Sometimes they're good to have in just so you can ignore the idiot who's micromanaging your work.

Cheers,
BAB


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2005)

We are talking about how two different types of risk managemnt are coming together.

The individual sees the small risk of something happening to him as acceptable. He does not need a helmet or ear protection, but has had dust in the eyes so he willingly wears that cool pair of sun/saftey galsses you provide.

The employer not only does not want the risk to the individual, because most do care about their people, but they allso need to protect themselves from;

 loss from paid convolecence
 W/C claims
 long term disability
 increased insurance premiums
 OSHS fines in the case of inspection or fatality inquiry

I'm sure others could add to that list.

Many employees do not understand the larger risk "bucket" the employer needs to concider when enforcing these policy measures the individual finds a hinderance.

There are several easy responces allready mentioned "I'm the boss" is true, but does nothing to promote understanding. "we get a discount on our insurance premium" may go farther.


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## TREETX (Mar 17, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> So in another way, what you're saying is a deaf person couldn't safely perform as a treeworker?



A co-worker of mine said he worked for one on the island of Jersey. (Channel Islands)


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## TREETX (Mar 17, 2005)

I don't have any hearing loss, people just talk too quiet sometimes......


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## duartebigmex (Mar 17, 2005)

Exactly Well said John Paul Sanborn! 

Promoting a understanding is what I me.

Making people understand not make them more bolder that they all ready are.

:blob5:


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## rb_in_va (Mar 17, 2005)

My best friend's dad is very hard of hearing. He has a hearing aid, but doesn't wear it because he enjoys the silence.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 17, 2005)

My problem is how loud "silence" is in my head. :alien:


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## Sylvatica (Mar 17, 2005)

You know the small, front right hand pocket on jeans and some work pants? ("Change pocket") 
I always have at least 2 pairs of foam Aearo classic ear plugs in that pocket. 
I use plugs _and_ muffs. A guy I've worked with for years is just about deaf because he is too macho to wear ear pro.
When a mechanic I know was trying to sell me a used saw he recently tuned, he fired it *inside* his shop, and ran it wide open throttle to show me how well it could run. It was sooo d--mned loud I got an instant headache that lasted for an hour....and he does that all day long. :alien:


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## P_woozel (Mar 20, 2005)

I've been wearing earplugs steady for 19 years, working around loud equipment, saws, large deisels, helicopters, yarders etc. My hearing is damaged and thats with protection. these guys that refuse to wear it are morons. Quite simple, dont enable them, if they refuse to follow your policy, right or not cut them loose.


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## matthias (Mar 20, 2005)

I find extending an aluminum ladder is too loud without earplugs. I usually wear them whenever I am working regardless what I am doing. Kind of overkill when I'm not using a saw and the chipper is shutdown but I don't feel right without them.


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## Stumper (Mar 20, 2005)

Matthias, Me too. It is weird when I find myself donning hearing protection to make a half dozen polesaw cuts, but I always work with ear protection and gloves.- IT is hard to even start without them.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 20, 2005)

i'v played in bands for the las t8 years as well as going t gigis and raves - i once passed out at a free party with my head reatting on the bass bins of a 12k rig - lost my hearing for about 2 days - i'v had tinnitus for the last 3-4 years.
i try and wear muffs and plugs all the time coz it can only get worse.


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## begleytree (Mar 21, 2005)

Thats true, you never recover the lost hearing, but you can stop it from getting any worse.
-Ralph


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