# looking for some info on starting a tree service



## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

So I am wanting to Start my own businness. I have cut plenty tree as I sell firewood in the winter and grew up on the farm. I am trying to put together a business plan to get a loan but don't know were to start on estimating operating cost. I plan to buy bucket truck with chip box 2ton dump skidsteer chipper and stump grinder along with saws ropes other stuff. I live in an area of bout 30000 people or so any help would be great.


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## flushcut (Oct 7, 2011)

I would guess that if you are buying new you need a loan of $350k. Do you have any experience in the tree biz other than being a firewood cutter which is absolutely nothing, not even remotely close to being the same?


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

Not buying new. Planing on good used except for the saws and other small stuff. Never worked as a pro but have experience cuting down trees. I never had a bucket truck or climbing gear if I needed to cut just a top limb I climbed up the tree an pulled my saw up with a rope


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## VA-Sawyer (Oct 7, 2011)

As a Certified Flight Instructor with 20 years of experience, I can say you would stand a better chance of teaching yourself how to fly in a real plane, than learning this business on your own.
Rick


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

Yea learning to fly would be easier since a retard I went to school with is a pilot now. I aint looking for easy or over night. I am simply asking for so numbers to throw around on a plan. I know there's a lot to learn and safety is number one. I grew up on a farm I know you don't do things you don't have the know how to do that's why I am in the planing stage then I'll find a employee with the knowledge


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## serial feller (Oct 7, 2011)

I am not a climber but I am self employed and cut down trees for a living. I also would never go into debt the way you are talking about *or assume I am qualified to climb and/or cut from a bucket*. Climbers are highly skilled and have been trained by other highly skilled and qualified people. If you attempt to go pro out of the clear blue sky, you are asking to get killed or damage something / someone you can't fix. Do you know how to cut a limb so that it will drop to the left without spinning and land flat in the location you wanted? I don't. Can you fall a tree between the house and the fence with only a couple of feet to spare and not hit a thing but the ground? Must of my work is in the woods but I do occasionally take trees where the house is "in range" or the power lines or any number of things you don't want to damage or kill. As a "tree service" you will see a lot of this. In your business plan figure in at least $2,000,000.00 in liability insurance coverage and a kicker for your commercial truck. 

Now about the debt. With a population of 30K how much annual revenue do you expect to generate? Even buying used equipment you are about to be shocked at what the final bill is, and because it's used you will need to count on breakdowns. Even shopping smart you are going in the tank at least $100,000.00. What's the interest rate on a business loan? How many years? I bet your payment is over $1,500 per month and that's not counting insurance, fuel, replacement parts, oil changes, etc, etc, etc. After all of that you still have to eat and pay the bills. 

Bottom line is I think you are over your head. I think you will hurt yourself or someone else. Go to work for a reputable company and learn the business, learn the trade, learn the skill. Give it a few years, then consider your own business.


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

serial feller said:


> I am not a climber but I am self employed and cut down trees for a living. I also would never go into debt the way you are talking about *or assume I am qualified to climb and/or cut from a bucket*. Climbers are highly skilled and have been trained by other highly skilled and qualified people. If you attempt to go pro out of the clear blue sky, you are asking to get killed or damage something / someone you can't fix. Do you know how to cut a limb so that it will drop to the left without spinning and land flat in the location you wanted? I don't. Can you fall a tree between the house and the fence with only a couple of feet to spare and not hit a thing but the ground? Must of my work is in the woods but I do occasionally take trees where the house is "in range" or the power lines or any number of things you don't want to damage or kill. As a "tree service" you will see a lot of this. In your business plan figure in at least $2,000,000.00 in liability insurance coverage and a kicker for your commercial truck.
> 
> Now about the debt. With a population of 30K how much annual revenue do you expect to generate? Even buying used equipment you are about to be shocked at what the final bill is, and because it's used you will need to count on breakdowns. Even shopping smart you are going in the tank at least $100,000.00. What's the interest rate on a business loan? How many years? I bet your payment is over $1,500 per month and that's not counting insurance, fuel, replacement parts, oil changes, etc, etc, etc. After all of that you still have to eat and pay the bills.
> 
> Bottom line is I think you are over your head. I think you will hurt yourself or someone else. Go to work for a reputable company and learn the business, learn the trade, learn the skill. Give it a few years, then consider your own business.


 
You must be looking. At different used prices I figure 40000 tops. And break downs I am a certified. mechanic so only parts will cost. The population is just of the bigger cities not the smaller ones. Never had training from a pro but have cut close to houses never hit one an have cut from the top of trees and am still here. Again I looking for close numbers my estiments show 400 a day on a 200day work year to break even


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## thepheniox (Oct 7, 2011)

Serial feller is right go work for someone and learn the business. You will find that even used equipment costs a lot and then even more to keep it working. You need to account for your time.


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## beastmaster (Oct 7, 2011)

No disrespect, but if you went to a reputable tree company and told them your experience, you might get hired as a groundsman or if lucky a trainee. So how can you honestly offer your service to the gullible public as a tree professional? You plan to do on the job training learning while you make mistakes on their trees, destroying their property? That doesn't even seem honest to me. You'll be misrepisenting your self from the start. Look who's calling who a retard. Beastmaster


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

Ok I got yall all figured out you either work for someone an aint got the balls to go it on your own or own your own business and don't run a good enough business that ur threatened by someone in another state that being said on my lack of experience I'll just hire someone like you with the knowledge


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## serial feller (Oct 7, 2011)

Listen here you mental midget, It aint about who does or doesn't have the balls. Pay attention. This is about destroying property that doesn't belong to you and some inexperienced bozo dropping a tree into a nursery and killing the sleeping kid inside.


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## VA-Sawyer (Oct 7, 2011)

You need to reread my post... I said it would be worse than learning to fly on your own. As in without the instructor! As for the idea of hiring someone with the needed skills to work for you, expect him to cost about $250 to $300 per day. 

Certified mechanic.... certified at what exactly ? Even 15 or 20 years experience at a car dealership won't teach you what you will need to be able to safely fix your equipment.

I think I'll start a brain surgery clinic next month. I have applied first aid cream and band-aids in the past so that should make me qualified for doing brain surgery. Anyone know how much I will need to borrow to get this new business off the ground ?

Rick


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## serial feller (Oct 7, 2011)

How are you going to determine if your skilled employee actually is qualified?


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

See now we're getting some were I'll compare the income levels were your from to here to see what the 250 to 300 would be here we are in a lower income area. I am certified in heavy duty truck farm equipment hydraulics and things of that matter I was lead tech shop manager for 3 years if you read I aint old enough to have 10 or 20 years experience. I wouldn't take a job were I would in danger people until I had the knowledge I have son myself so sure wouldn't drop a tree in a nursery as far as telling weather a person had the knowledge I need call their refferances I would say if he wasn't any good they wouldn't tell me he was


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

An I didn't ask how much I needed to borrow asked for operating cost estimate


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

If he worked there and they thought he was good why they get rid of him


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## VA-Sawyer (Oct 7, 2011)

I need to add a powerful microscope to my equipment list for the brain clinic in case I get a customer that thinks he can start a tree business without having the needed skills.
Rick


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

I would call more than one reference. The micro scope would be good by but a flaneless stereotaxy system would give better images


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## troythetreeman (Oct 7, 2011)

im all for you going out on your own and earning a living
this is America
but im telling you man, to sink that kind of investment into this without the basic 101 at the very least isnt going to work
your only shot is to find a guy who can not only do any job, he can bid and sell it too
and nobody, who isnt close to you personally is going to be that guy for you, i would _never_ work for someone i didnt know, who wasnt established and knows less about this business then i do
not unless the idea of my kid going hungry and ending up homeless didnt bother me
no offense man
you want info on equipment prices, start scoping web sites that sell it
then be aware how much DOT is going to cost, repairs, ....
you want info on the best saws, read a few of these forums
no one here is trying to pop your bubble man but there isnt a one of us who just decided one day, i know how to run a chainsaw, im going to invest 100K and go do residential tree work
that you think you can just do this like its easy is belittling and offensive
these guys are right man, work for someone else for a while
that or start smaller, buy some basic tools, go out and find jobs you know you can do, when you get one thats over your head, hire a good climber, if he doesnt have his own tools, he probably isnt good, make sure he is good, if he smashes a house or hurts himself or someone else, its on you
i do work for a guy very much like that on the weekends, he mostly landscapes, if it needs to be climbed, he calls me, i get 50$ per hour cash and were both calling it a saturday well spent
he may own the company, but when im in the yard i call all the shots
if you hire a guy worth his salt, all he needs to know is what the end result is supposed to be, from there he is going to tell you what he needs you to do, not ask you how to do it
i have run my own tree business, it was 80+ hour weeks and all of the stress and headaches....
i made good money, more then i make now, but i didnt have a life...
now i climb trees and i go home, i like it
we have a bucket truck, it gets used once a month, if that, most tree jobs you cant get it to anyhow, and most of the ones you can, i personally, feel safer, and can do it faster, just climbing it
maybe 5% of the jobs we do the bucket is the best tool for the job


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## serial feller (Oct 7, 2011)

Listen to Troy. He's forgotten about more residential jobs than most people will ever experience. Sorry about the name calling, but dropping trees, especially residential work is serious business and should not be taken lightly. Anyone who has been cutting trees for any length of time has seen some scary stuff. Things you never expect to happen do. Trees will behave and move in unpredictable ways. It is experience that minimizes that risk and enables a person to predict what was once unpredictable. Build on the experience of those who have it. Residential work is not the place to learn or make potentially deadly mistakes. No one wants to burst your bubble, but enthusiasm alone will not be successful.


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## squad143 (Oct 7, 2011)

Just some FYI. The easiest (and cheapest) way to get rid of a lousy employee, is to give him an outstanding reference. He'll leave for greener pastures and it won't cost you an arm and a leg to fire the SOB.

You say you are a certified mechanic. Can you do an annual boom inspection?

Best advise I can give you, is to keep your present job. Work for a reputable tree company on your days off (weekends/vacation) and learn the trade. Find out if tree work is even something you enjoy. It is a lot easier (any job) if you enjoy it.) Start small, with minimal investment doing smaller jobs and work your way up. It is easier to bid higher (more profit) when your not under the gun to come up with family expenses as well as a big monthly bank loan.

I guess a lot of guys are busting your balls because you seem a little naive about the whole " tree cutting" business. Just because you have worked on a farm and have cut trees for fire wood, doesn't mean you can cut down trees for a living right away. It's a small start, but just because I like cows and drink milk should not mean I should invest a lot of money and start my own dairy farm. ( a bit of an exaggeration). Most people don't call you to cut down the easy ones.

When you apply for arborist insurance, they will ask you for your experience. Expect to pay a much higher premium for "just cutting trees on the farm for firewood". Do some homework. Call around for some commercial insurance, that will cover you for large tree removal with your experience and see what your rates will be.

Try to stay out of debt. Learn the ropes from someone with good experience. Then decide if this line of work is for you.

Best of luck to you.


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## troythetreeman (Oct 7, 2011)

to keep everything going as you described in your initial post you need to average 2000$ per day 4 days a week min
one more piece of advise, do not hire your friends


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> im all for you going out on your own and earning a living
> this is America
> but im telling you man, to sink that kind of investment into this without the basic 101 at the very least isnt going to work
> your only shot is to find a guy who can not only do any job, he can bid and sell it too
> ...


 

The bucket truck is goin off the few other businesses don't have climbers they just use trucks. The reason I am asking for the help with numbers to see how it may work out there befor I go farther. I never climbed with gear but thought it may be something to learn I not tryin to open tomrrow or anything more of a few year plan I only busten their chops cause is gettin to them


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Oct 7, 2011)

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I started when I was about 12 cutting firewood. Then about 15 went to selling firewood. From there people said hey you have a chainsaw will you cut this for me. I then did some research bought about $2000 worth of climbing rigging gear and a couple more saws. I took a test through the local forestry department to get a license with the city and I stay busy with minimal overhead. My advise is do it if you want but stay small and realistic on the jobs you accept. If you don't feel it's easy pass on it. Also no loans. You won't recover it. After a few years you can slowly work bigger as you add more equipment.


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## dearl (Oct 7, 2011)

serial feller said:


> Listen to Troy. He's forgotten about more residential jobs than most people will ever experience. Sorry about the name calling, but dropping trees, especially residential work is serious business and should not be taken lightly. Anyone who has been cutting trees for any length of time has seen some scary stuff. Things you never expect to happen do. Trees will behave and move in unpredictable ways. It is experience that minimizes that risk and enables a person to predict what was once unpredictable. Build on the experience of those who have it. Residential work is not the place to learn or make potentially deadly mistakes. No one wants to burst your bubble, but enthusiasm alone will not be successful.


 
Yea I asking for advise I knew by reading on this site that you might chatch a li bs but I know I no expert but would like to become one some day. I know there's extrem danger. I like the outside work and all. Just tired of makin other people rich


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## squad143 (Oct 7, 2011)

dearl said:


> Just tired of makin other people rich


 
I hear ya. But even owing your own company, there are many days it still feels like this.

I feel the rewards are worth it, but it's not all gravy. Do lots of homework (this site is a start), start small, keep debt at a minimum and work your way up.


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## tomtrees58 (Oct 7, 2011)

buying used equipment is ok if its in good shape but????????? wen hes gos down the road and the dot gets him he will think twice about being in business:hmm3grin2orange:


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Oct 7, 2011)

tomtrees58 said:


> buying used equipment is ok if its in good shape but????????? wen hes gos down the road and the dot gets him he will think twice about being in business:hmm3grin2orange:


 
That's why I like KS. The DOT doesn't mess with the local rednecks. Just the OTR truckers. Most of us don't even tag our trailers.


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## flushcut (Oct 8, 2011)

dearl said:


> Not buying new. Planing on good used except for the saws and other small stuff. Never worked as a pro but have experience cuting down trees. I never had a bucket truck or climbing gear if I needed to cut just a top limb I climbed up the tree an pulled my saw up with a rope


 I would say work for or with somebody to get some real experience. 


dearl said:


> Ok I got yall all figured out you either work for someone an aint got the balls to go it on your own or own your own business and don't run a good enough business that ur threatened by someone in another state that being said on my lack of experience I'll just hire someone like you with the knowledge


 I run my own show and I wish you the best but this is not an easy business to get into with no experience. You can really mess things up in a major way or kill somebody even if you hire a guy who knows. If you are going to learn from them it is going to take forever before you can work productively together because you have no base to go off of. There is so much more than just notching and dropping a tree: rigging, rigging theory, climbing, tree biology, and so on. 


dearl said:


> An I didn't ask how much I needed to borrow asked for operating cost estimate


Your operating cost really depends on your skill level. Can you come in to a job and pound it out in hours or is it going to take a week? With all that gear you could be in the $600-1000 if not more a day in overhead. I know of mid-sized companies here that are at $2500 a day just to make payroll.


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## no tree to big (Oct 9, 2011)

so when your $250 a day climber dont show do you know what to do to get it done? can you even tie a running bowline, the most basic and most common knot in the tree world? what happens when you cant get your truck to the tree are you going to pass on the job? 

I think you have this backwards on how to start a biz especially in an area with as few people as you are targeting, keep in mind this is if you already have working knowledge... so go get some of that... you buy a nice older f350 or f450 dump and a decent chipper and have a pickup to pull a trailer for wood that there will be the lowest overhead option and if that area cant sustain the required over head on that then your out a lot less then if you go buying a bucket 2 ton dump skid and so on 

I think going big right from the git-go is going to be good for the first couple weeks then your going to run out of people who want to try out the new co. on the block and after that your going to sink fast

I took a look at the area you are targeting and I'm going to be honest I dont think your going to make to much money with the biz model your thinking about. the ideal setup would be where you know how to climb and can climb anything and everything and you have one or two groundies for 10-15 an hour not the other way around 

and being a firewood cutter/seller gets you almost no experience fo tree work I felled trees and cut firewood when I was like 13 not to hard if a teenager can do it is it? and when I made the jump into a production tree biz it was a wake up call I picked it up fast but that first week was rough, not so much the physical part but I did go from a sit on my ass job to tree work overnight but the mental is tough "what should i be doing now" "am I doing what I should be doing" "should I do it this way" "what the hell does he want me to do" is whats going to be in your head all day long and as the owner thats not a good thing your supposed to be the guy yelling at the others not the otherway around...


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## k5alive (Oct 9, 2011)

you defenatly cant jump balls deep right away, i started with a small company, then i kept moving company to company but i learned how to climb through many different people over a long period of time after a while i was comfortable climbing on my own, now i just sell myself to other companys who want a badass climber. i do side work all the time because i know what i am doing. i dont have thousands and thousands of dollars loaned. key is if you start off in the little box you can make it to the big box. or you can go youre way and tank, then owe bookoo dollars to a bank


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 9, 2011)

On a serious note have you considered getting into stumps and smaller tree related ventures before going big , I mean it sounds as if you may do OK with that , you have some mechanical experience which is a must to keep a stump cutter working daily and it is almost a game that is somewhat self explanatory , then as time progresses ease yourself into some small removals and some pruning work this will also establish you as a player in your area , I mean there is always stump work that needs to be done and a hustler can make some money at it .. Then maybe invest more as needed but to go whole hog into it is a bit stupid ... Also landscape works pays the bills as well and I am not talking about grass either , clean ups and things ... Maybe just saying ..


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## minuteman tree (Oct 9, 2011)

These guys know what they're talking about. I'm in the same boat you are, and they've been alot of help. I've got about 5 years ground experience on a logging crew and have done some recreational climbing. I already have saws and just sunk about $850 into climbing equipment. I plan on starting with the smaller jobs until I get the experience to tackle the bigger stuff. I borrow my father in laws truck and have no loans. My biggest expense is my insurance, which in my area runs about $800 for the year. Start small and remember "Low and Slow".


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## Zale (Oct 9, 2011)

I said this in a previous thread but it bears repeating , "If your into pain and suffering, you will love this work". If this is what you really want to do, try to find work with another company and learn the trade from the ground up. You will realize fairly quickly if it is for you.

A population of 30k is not a lot of people. How many other companies are in your area? What do they charge per day? How are you going to be different from them to get clients. What will set you apart? I would not purchase all that equipment and then try to figure out how to man it. Its a free country, good luck.


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## sgreanbeans (Oct 10, 2011)

My cost to operate daily is about 275, that covers gas, guys, insurance and payments. 
I would go as big as you can, get at least 250k in equipment, hire about 10 guys and go for it. Just let me know when you are ready to unload some dat shiny stuff:biggrin: 
You can do this 2 ways, right or wrong, choice is up to you. If you want to do it the right way, you need to slow down and take baby steps, if you have never been in a tree or a bucket, then I would say that you are years away from having enough experience to run your own show. If you don't wanna go that route, then go to Home Depot, get a couple saws, go to Schmidtys in Illinois and get a top notch truck and you will be ready, after all its just gravity.

This Q is asked a lot by the same type, we should put a reader only post up. "If your think of starting up a tree service, consider all this"
I am sure it open eyes and kill the same thread form starting over and over.

Not knocking anyone for wanting to work, but many guys think it is no big deal to do what we do, and I suppose that's true, to a point. When you want to do it like we do, then there is much to learn before even thinking about taking the plunge.


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## BestPriceTree (Oct 10, 2011)

*Best Price Tree Services*

Starting a tree service company is a much bigger task than most would think. I would advise against it. If you're still interested though, check out my Best Price Tree Service company.


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## no tree to big (Oct 10, 2011)

wish the OP could have been out there today with us to show us how easy it is to run a "show" with firewood experience 

holy fricken huge american elm only 45" but my god that thing had a canopy the size of Rhode Island over 2 houses grew through 3 other trees, the road had a grassy median prob about 75-100' between the two lanes, it had a leader that grew almost horizontal @30' and was over the road on the far side so roughly 100-125' long. wish I had a camera phone that was worth something to get some pics of these elms we are taking down. and all for about 1800 bucks stupid muni contract otherwise it woulda been like a $6-7K tree

side note finally got to run the crane a bit today cause the forman/op had a bit to much to drink yesturday so he spent some time in the back of the chip truck yacking


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## minuteman tree (Oct 10, 2011)

Went for my first climb today. Learned 2 things.
1. Climbing is a lot harder than it looks.
2. I need to lose weight, cuz my 260 lbs was damn hard to pull up.

Not giving up though. I loved it. Think I'm gonna try footlocking next.


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## minuteman tree (Oct 10, 2011)

Also, just wanted to say that I have alot of respect for you guys that do this every day. It's deadly serious and I look forward to learning more from yall


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## superjunior (Oct 10, 2011)

Another thing is without climbing experience and a good understanding of residential tree work, its going to be nearly impossible to accurately estimate/bid on a job because you will have no idea of how long it will take. And finding a good climber who you can depend on and actually has his s##t together.. good luck.. I've had 3 climbers come and go through here the last few years and they all had some issue or another. had an excellent guy work for a few days. had his act together, married, a wizz at rigging, no chemical dependencies - he was a keeper. he wanted 300.00 a day (and worth it) I just couldn't afford to keep him.
Point is, If I wasn't an experienced climber YEARS before going out on my own, I'd probably be out of business. Oh and if your married, there's a real good chance you'll be getting a divorce. The business is your new wife now and expect on spending about 70 to 80 hrs a week with her..


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## minuteman tree (Oct 10, 2011)

Like I said, I'm starting small until I get more experience. I have a full time job, so this will be weekend gig until I can go at it fulltime. It's hard work and I know there'le be times when I hate it. I have a lot to learn and I want to do this right.


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