# Tandem falling



## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

Prolly most of you guys have cut timber side by side with another cutter, well today was my first time...and it was awesome! A guy came out and cut with me today and we flat layed out the timber. This guy evidently went to school to cut high grade walnut veneer. I learned some tricks and showed him a couple. 

We were pretty evenly matched; near the same age, same skill set...I out lasted him physically :msp_w00t:, but I won't hold that against him...it was in the high 80's today. I was a little apprehensive about cutting that close to someone but it worked great! Normally if another cutter is with me, they are across the hollar or something...never right beside me.

One trick he taught me was a bore cutting technique where the stump had 3 main points, he skipped the notch like I do but he bored between the 3 points leaving them and popped the back 2 to release the tree with a finger on the front to keep from jumping the stump. Pretty neat actually!

Anyway, I just wanted to express my enjoyment of working beside a good faller and having a VERY successful day! :msp_biggrin: Hope everyone made it home safe today! Cheers!


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## 056 kid (Apr 16, 2013)

Skip the notch?


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

Yep. It was about a 2ftr across the stump, very tall. It was a neat cut...don't think I will be trying it though. Leaving the tree standing on three points...you would have to really be able to read a tree.


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## Spotted Owl (Apr 16, 2013)

It sure can make for a good fun day can't it? Don't forget though, it takes time to build the trust needed to do it regular. Even then ya still keep a good eye on them, like they should be doing to you also.

You're gonna have to explain the new cut better. I'm not getting something in there.



Owl


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## 056 kid (Apr 16, 2013)

twochains said:


> Yep. It was about a 2ftr across the stump, very tall. It was a neat cut...don't think I will be trying it though. Leaving the tree standing on three points...you would have to really be able to read a tree.



I could see the 3 point thing in my mind. How do you cut with no face?


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

templar- here it goes... The three points I am I am talking about were where the stump naturally flaired into the root system. He basically left those, boring everything else out of the heart. When he cut each one, he sloped the cuts downward.

Spotted Owl- what do want me to explain?


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

056 kid said:


> I could see the 3 point thing in my mind. How do you cut with no face?



I will make a vid of it 2moro. Not his way but mine...just a non-face cut bore, I saved the perfect tree today just so I can film it.

kid...you should have seen this! It was awesome. I think he is cutting with me 2moro and maybe he will set up another one for the camera. I have a real sidelin' set to cut 2moro with several leaners.


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

templar said:


> Ok so no face as such?



templar, I guess for the three pointed bore (thats what Im gonna call it) technically you could consider one of the three sides a face I guess. However the tree goes over the front point...not the bore cuts.


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## RandyMac (Apr 16, 2013)

The Hammer does something called a "spur cut", maybe he can address this.


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> The Hammer does something called a "spur cut", maybe he can address this.



Randy...that is what the guy kept refering those points as "spurs". Your prolly on to something.


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## Spotted Owl (Apr 16, 2013)

twochains said:


> templar- here it goes... The three points I am I am talking about were where the stump naturally flaired into the root system. He basically left those, boring everything else out of the heart. When he cut each one, he sloped the cuts downward.
> 
> Spotted Owl- what do want me to explain?




Just what you have been explaining. This is interesting. I'll look for the camera stuff when you get it up. I'm just having a hard time picturing this in my head. All that matters is that it worked well, and nobody was hurt. Sounds like a fairly common set up around your parts.



Owl


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> Just what you have been explaining. This is interesting. I'll look for the camera stuff when you get it up. I'm just having a hard time picturing this in my head. All that matters is that it worked well, and nobody was hurt. Sounds like a fairly common set up around your parts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the non face cut bore is sort of common. I learned it years ago cutting a tornado damaged set of ERC. The three pointed bore is not from this area and I don't figure it is common. The guy learned these technique while cutting high grade walnut in Idaho (maybe Iowa...I can't remember). He said they do all kinds of different stuff out there to eliminate any fiber pull. I will shoot both techniques 2moro.


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## twochains (Apr 16, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> It sure can make for a good fun day can't it? Don't forget though, it takes time to build the trust needed to do it regular. Even then ya still keep a good eye on them, like they should be doing to you also.
> 
> Owl





I forgot to reply to that part ^^^. It was fun, having someone right beside you heightens your alertness so much it is like a rush. All focus on your tree, and dropping it with up most preciseness is pretty intense! We always made eye contact before either was back cutting and generally used hands signals for direction of drop zone.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 16, 2013)

while he may get his trees on the ground, don't be too impressed. there are better ways to achieve the same results. What would he do with a big veneer forked red oak thats leaning perpendicular to the forks? there's more to cutting timber than getting wood on the ground, and it can be done without fiber pull. I would keep my distance from someone who thinks he's that special and has no directional control. Do what you know best, keep an eye out for new skills, but be consistent, and you will do well.

But, it is good to work with other fallers, thats true. 

Spur cutting? well, root flare will give you enhanced hinge strength for sidehilling, that must be what you (Randy) are referring to, from some of my cutting.


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## jrcat (Apr 16, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> while he may get his trees on the ground, don't be too impressed. there are better ways to achieve the same results. What would he do with a big veneer forked red oak thats leaning perpendicular to the forks? there's more to cutting timber than getting wood on the ground, and it can be done without fiber pull. I would keep my distance from someone who thinks he's that special and has no directional control. Do what you know best, keep an eye out for new skills, but be consistent, and you will do well.
> 
> 
> I learned the hard way with the forks on a big red oak. when those forks hit the ground and collapsed ... that log split from the top down. Now in hind sight I would have spent more time with a directional fall other than just putting it on the ground.


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## forestryworks (Apr 16, 2013)

Anybody with a saw can put wood on the ground and leave a jackstrawed mess. It takes a real faller to directionally fall trees and lay out the wood nicely. 

I find these "no face" methods to be ignorant, IMO. I do understand not wanting to split, rail, or otherwise bust a high-grade log, but not putting in a face cut is just asking for a trip to the ER; the short bar bore cutters are even more at risk using that kind of cutting. 

Keep your distance...


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## twochains (Apr 17, 2013)

forestryworks- Yes, I see what you mean. Normally the way I lay timber down is in groups, then all that gets skid out then I go back and hit it again to keep things all tidy. The really bad leaners are usually left alone until everything is cut around them then they get cut, unless the leaner is leaning in the direction of the rest of the trees. See, I am supposed to have a skidder with me no more than a half day behind...so I don't ever lay the entire set out in one cut, this keeps everything nice.

hammerlogging- I don't what he does about forks falling perpendicular and possibly busting. Normally the boss does most of the top busting when he decides to bring out the Hydra Ax. We don't sell veneer logs, the only ones I even know of were cut buy some buddies of mine a couple months ago. From what I heard of the ordeal it sounded like a pain in the tail. These were 78 walnut trees, they were dropped and skid to the field where a guy would come out and tell them what and where to cut as far as limbing and topping. I have yet to hear the sale price. but I do know that the cutters were paid high wages for this area.


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## twochains (Apr 17, 2013)

Well...the other cutter showed his operator side and stayed at the landing...ALL DAY! I asked my boss about him and he said the guy used to log but he is mainly an operator, he runs a D8 and excavator for my boss. I had a senior faller that was part time, well he retired and that is why this guy is around. 

I laid down a beautiful set today. I took my boss back in the timber to make sure what I have been doing was a well laid out set or a jack straw mess. He said it was super nice and well planned. Then he asked me why I carried him back there . I said I just wanted to be 100% re-assured that what I was falling was good enough for him. He looked at me, smiled, and said, "You been on that logging forum again? I am the one that pays you, trust me if there was a problem you would hear it from me. Turn the computer off and just do what you been doing". I smiled back and thanked him, and went started back after my saw. He hollared out, " It's hot and your over a day ahead of the skidder, you have done enough for today, thanks." So I carried my ass! LOL!

vid is going to be uploaded this evening hopefully


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## 4x4American (Apr 17, 2013)

Sounds like you're liking this new crew man! I remember awhile back you were asking about running your own numbers hows that whole deal workin out fer ya? Sounded like it was a little complicated for my skillset...anyways, correct me if i'm wrong, but the root flares you're talking about, they the same thing as butt-dresses? err uh i mean buttresses...anyways, im excited to see the videos, stay safe out there feller errr uhh i mean faller


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## bitzer (Apr 17, 2013)

Two chains- hes just stump jumpin. Typical walnut cutting style. Fall everything with the lean and no pull. That's what hes after or used to. Like Hammer said that bs doesn't fly when you've got to swing(turn) a big ass red oak to lay crotch flat and if you don't she'll split the last log if you're lucky and damn near to the butt if you're not. NO directional control there. I wouldn't turn my back on that. And by the way all the ####in around that has to be done to get that right-(bored and cleaned) I'd have two or three trees on the ground. Seriously, not trying to brag or boast, but its A LOT of ####in around in the dirt.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 18, 2013)

*Not something that can be used with every tree*

but I have done it on occasion, when the log and the tree make it feasible. Leave the buttress holding the tree from setting down on the bar when you bore it, then cut the buttresses straight down, leaving the one on the fall side partly attached.

We used to cut some walnut with good buttresses high and dig the stumps to sell to gun stock makers for more than veneer logs.


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## madhatte (Apr 18, 2013)

Riddle me this, hardwood veneer guys: would you really sacrifice a handful of board-feet on the butt log for the volume in the whole rest of the tree? If you just cut a stump with a good face and good holding wood, you can put it where you want it with minimum waste over the whole tree, versus saving MAYBE a few bf per stump, when you consider that ~13 1/2 inches diameter = 1 bf. Let's assume $1000/Mbf. A Humboldt on a 12" high stump (from high side ground level) gives you more than adequate control and on a 24" tree will account for no more than 40 bf. Why risk losing all of the secondary product value over 40 bucks? Good falling practices just make sense. Maximizing veneer volume at the expense of all other utilization seems short-sighted and wasteful to me.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 18, 2013)

Any tree I would use this way of dropping would have NO risk of loosing any value. And why would I be harvesting a walnut as small as 24"?


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## RandyMac (Apr 18, 2013)

There are only two people that I trusted enough to fall trees in close proximity, well one of them is dead, so one is left.

As for no facecut falling...


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## Gologit (Apr 18, 2013)

opcorn:


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## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

And I thought this was going to be about two trees at once, not two guys on the same postage stamp.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2013)

I was kinda hoping for some pics of two guys one tree, one making the sloping cut one the gun cut, or one guy making the face while the other started backing it up... dangerous as Hel but should be entertaining...

New reality tv show STUNT LOGGERS, if you die first we're taking yer saw...


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## 056 kid (Apr 18, 2013)

Stump jumping IS pulling wood. That's all it can do. I use such methods on wood trees all the time just for kicks and that's all it does is pull wood and bust trees. My first boss cut this way.. use a real face, get some directional control, be a better cutter!


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## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I was kinda hoping for some pics of two guys one tree, one making the sloping cut one the gun cut, or one guy making the face while the other started backing it up... dangerous as Hel but should be entertaining...
> 
> New reality tv show STUNT LOGGERS, if you die first we're taking yer saw...



with a couple of 15" bars, but that would be boring


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## twochains (Apr 18, 2013)

My power was hit last night and now I have to re-load the vid. Part of me doesn't even want to show it. I can't believe I am getting so much flack. I would never nor have I ever suggested either of these two types of cutting. 

That guy doing that 3 point bore seemed to me to be riddiculous and just a way of showing off. The tree had no real pressure on it...a normal notch could have dropped it with no problem...and the time he spent on it, well crap I dropped and limbed 2 trees.

As far as that knuckle dragging redneck white trash deal I do for super bad head leaners...well...I'm sorry but it works for everyone that I know that uses it. I don't know but I don't see how there is much control on a leaner hanging out 30+ft from the stump, what are you going to do with it other than let it hit the ground the way it wants to...straight down. You spend too much time on it and it is going to split...I just go in there, cut it;s heart out leaving a bit of holding wood in the front and a trigger on the back. So being that no one on here apparently uses it, can I name it??? How about the "Kiss of death bore cut"...spooky sounding huh? This cut only gets used for bad head leaners period, depending on what I am cutting, it really doesn't get used much unless there are alot of leaners.

I'm sorry that this fricken post turned the way it did...I was excited that I got to cut right beside someone...that's it...

Gologit- Sir, being I have up most respect for you and the other cutters on here...should I even show the vid?? I mean I am not at all saying this is a great practice...Hell I didn't even know it was dangerous, I would feel horrible if someone this and thinks I am giving a demo and they go and try it and get smashed! It's whatever you say Sir. The intent of this post was NEVER intended to become what it has...I just had seen a cut (3 point bore) that looked fancy and it was well executed and I just wanted to write about my day, that's it. My apologies if I have stepped out of line by even speaking of such a cut.

tornado warning is over...I'm going back to the woods


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## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

wow.
and if videos are posted you should expect a little guff.


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## Gologit (Apr 18, 2013)

twochains said:


> My power was hit last night and now I have to re-load the vid. Part of me doesn't even want to show it. I can't believe I am getting so much flack. I would never nor have I ever suggested either of these two types of cutting.
> 
> That guy doing that 3 point bore seemed to me to be riddiculous and just a way of showing off. The tree had no real pressure on it...a normal notch could have dropped it with no problem...and the time he spent on it, well crap I dropped and limbed 2 trees.
> 
> ...



Go ahead and post the video. I've stayed out of this so far but I'm curious about it too. When you post the video you might include an explanation of exactly what it is, exactly why it's used and under what circumstances, what the desired results are and whether they were achieved by using that particular cut.

There are different methods of cutting and there are probably quite a few I haven't heard of or seen. You describe things well but a video will help all of us to better understand what you're talking about.

As far as getting flak...that goes with the territory. Guys who fall trees for a living tend to be opinionated but that's not always a bad thing. Most of us have seen guys get hurt or killed in the woods and anything that seems unnecessarily dangerous tends to pull our focus. We're not shy about mentioning it either. It's not a personal attack.

Post the video. Take the flak for what it is...concern for good falling practices and your safety.

And quit calling me Sir! I feel old enough already.


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## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

yes sir,


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## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

templar said:


> LOL my knowledge is only half a stamp



now dont go selling your self short


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## c5rulz (Apr 18, 2013)

opcorn:


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## 4x4American (Apr 18, 2013)

I called the skidder operator sir once, and he told me that if I called him sir again we'd be rolling in the dirt cause them theres fightin words...didnt quite understand it at first. I changed jobs, I said yes sir to a guy at the new job, and he freaked out, told me that we weren't sirs, just regular working folk, noone around here is that special to call sir, but if you go into the office, everyone there is sir and mam. Post up that vid ya got there twochains, only thing it can do is spark more conversing over this here internet


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## 4x4American (Apr 18, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Riddle me this, hardwood veneer guys: would you really sacrifice a handful of board-feet on the butt log for the volume in the whole rest of the tree? If you just cut a stump with a good face and good holding wood, you can put it where you want it with minimum waste over the whole tree, versus saving MAYBE a few bf per stump, when you consider that ~13 1/2 inches diameter = 1 bf. Let's assume $1000/Mbf. A Humboldt on a 12" high stump (from high side ground level) gives you more than adequate control and on a 24" tree will account for no more than 40 bf. Why risk losing all of the secondary product value over 40 bucks? Good falling practices just make sense. Maximizing veneer volume at the expense of all other utilization seems short-sighted and wasteful to me.



my boss told me that any stump i make can be no higher than 4" off the ground. Got me wondering what to do with ones on steep hills where if I cut it 4" from the ground on the high side, it'd be ya know quite a bit higher off the ground on the low side. I got put in that situation a few times and I cut it 4" off the ground on the high side and it was prolly 14" off the ground on the low side, he freaked out! saying that all of his money is in the stump. He likes you to cut the tiniest conventional notch possible, then bore out the heart going in from one side, then bore in from the other side, which makes it really hard to line up your cuts, and then walk em to the back and leave a little trigger in the back. It takes so dang long doing it that way. especially with hickory, but if you get caught not boring a tree you get in deep trouble. got really old after awhile, spending so much time at the stump boring. I am not a fan of bore cutting. I don't see why I cant just throw in a humboldt notch, he got pisssssssed one day when he seen me doing a humboldt notch. I did it because I needed to do a sizwheel to get it where it needed to be. It worked great, but he was pissed because the stump was too high for his likings. It was about a foot off the ground, maybe a bakers foot.


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## RandyMac (Apr 18, 2013)

4X4, bet his head would explode with this one.


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## 056 kid (Apr 18, 2013)

4x4American said:


> my boss told me that any stump i make can be no higher than 4" off the ground. Got me wondering what to do with ones on steep hills where if I cut it 4" from the ground on the high side, it'd be ya know quite a bit higher off the ground on the low side. I got put in that situation a few times and I cut it 4" off the ground on the high side and it was prolly 14" off the ground on the low side, he freaked out! saying that all of his money is in the stump. He likes you to cut the tiniest conventional notch possible, then bore out the heart going in from one side, then bore in from the other side, which makes it really hard to line up your cuts, and then walk em to the back and leave a little trigger in the back. It takes so dang long doing it that way. especially with hickory, but if you get caught not boring a tree you get in deep trouble. got really old after awhile, spending so much time at the stump boring. I am not a fan of bore cutting. I don't see why I cant just throw in a humboldt notch, he got pisssssssed one day when he seen me doing a humboldt notch. I did it because I needed to do a sizwheel to get it where it needed to be. It worked great, but he was pissed because the stump was too high for his likings. It was about a foot off the ground, maybe a bakers foot.



I'd be packin my gear home every day that's for sure.


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## jrcat (Apr 18, 2013)

4x4American said:


> my boss told me that any stump i make can be no higher than 4" off the ground. Got me wondering what to do with ones on steep hills where if I cut it 4" from the ground on the high side, it'd be ya know quite a bit higher off the ground on the low side. I got put in that situation a few times and I cut it 4" off the ground on the high side and it was prolly 14" off the ground on the low side, he freaked out! saying that all of his money is in the stump. He likes you to cut the tiniest conventional notch possible, then bore out the heart going in from one side, then bore in from the other side, which makes it really hard to line up your cuts, and then walk em to the back and leave a little trigger in the back. It takes so dang long doing it that way. especially with hickory, but if you get caught not boring a tree you get in deep trouble. got really old after awhile, spending so much time at the stump boring. I am not a fan of bore cutting. I don't see why I cant just throw in a humboldt notch, he got pisssssssed one day when he seen me doing a humboldt notch. I did it because I needed to do a sizwheel to get it where it needed to be. It worked great, but he was pissed because the stump was too high for his likings. It was about a foot off the ground, maybe a bakers foot.



I would tell that guy to stuff it. Do what is safe. I personally have not cut much on hillsides. But I have helped a few of the old timers and they do exacvtly what you do 4" on the high side and about 14" on the low side. One tree I watched a guy cut leaned hard up hill. Myself I would never have cut it for fear of it sliding down and the top taking me with it lol. But the old timer did it, he laid it off to the side so as to not get struck. I'll cut in hill side roads with my dozer all day long and be just fine. But as a faller....I will stick to flatter ground. Inexperience can quickly lead to death.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2013)

I like em shoulder high, easier on my back + I can really see the chips getting in my eyes that way...

Two chains, just show the damn video so we can all point and laugh, that's half the fun!


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## bitzer (Apr 18, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Riddle me this, hardwood veneer guys: would you really sacrifice a handful of board-feet on the butt log for the volume in the whole rest of the tree? If you just cut a stump with a good face and good holding wood, you can put it where you want it with minimum waste over the whole tree, versus saving MAYBE a few bf per stump, when you consider that ~13 1/2 inches diameter = 1 bf. Let's assume $1000/Mbf. A Humboldt on a 12" high stump (from high side ground level) gives you more than adequate control and on a 24" tree will account for no more than 40 bf. Why risk losing all of the secondary product value over 40 bucks? Good falling practices just make sense. Maximizing veneer volume at the expense of all other utilization seems short-sighted and wasteful to me.



You can get a hell of a lot more wood on the ground when you bring the stump up a little as opposed to diggin in the dirt. What they think they're saving in board inches they are losing in board feet everyday. Just silly to me. When making randoms do I very rarely run into a situation where I lose length at the end of a stem because my stump was too high. Its just this ####### mentality that's been drilled into everyone's heads for so many years.


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## bitzer (Apr 18, 2013)

4x4- I know you are getting paid by the day so you are kind of stuck doing what the boss wants regardless of how ridiculous. That's pretty much the norm up here to. Flush cut em. Just dumb. 


Two chains- Are you getting paid by the day/hour/thousand? How you are paid will make a huge difference in how you cut or how you are expected to cut. 

I get paid by volume. Me, myself, and I.


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## Gologit (Apr 18, 2013)

bitzer said:


> 4x4- I know you are getting paid by the day so you are kind of stuck doing what the boss wants regardless of how ridiculous. That's pretty much the norm up here to. Flush cut em. Just dumb.
> 
> 
> Two chains- Are you getting paid by the day/hour/thousand? How you are paid will make a huge difference in how you cut or how you are expected to cut.
> ...



I remember a couple of years ago and you wanting to go logging. Now you're doing it...and good on ya for making it happen.

What do you think of it so far?


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## bitzer (Apr 18, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I remember a couple of years ago and you wanting to go logging. Now you're doing it...and good on ya for making it happen.
> 
> What do you think of it so far?



I wonder what took me so long to get my #### together. Seriously, I make pretty decent money, love my job, and its pretty damn fun telling people what I do for a living. Logging is not really associated with where I live, but its where the big timber is at. My forwarder is more than half paid for and I plan to call it mine by the end of the year. Also when things dry out I'm throwing a crew together. I plan on hand-cutting for as long as I can and eventually hop in a harvester and move my arms back and forth all day. So the general feeling is that I can't get enough of it! Now if that damn rain would just stop! Another 2-3 inches on top of last weeks 2-3 inches right after break up. Man do I love talking timber and being out there though.


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## madhatte (Apr 19, 2013)

bitzer said:


> You can get a hell of a lot more wood on the ground when you bring the stump up a little as opposed to diggin in the dirt. What they think they're saving in board inches they are losing in board feet everyday.



This is a thing I've seen more times than I care to count. "KNOWS RIGHT ANSWER WHEN GIVEN IT" should be a requirement for entry in any business... if a better way comes along, holding on to "how we've always done it" _just because_ should only be allowed after honestly assessing new methods. If these new methods fail on their own merits, well, then, back to business as usual. If they succeed? Adapt, improvise, overcome, carry the hell on more efficiently.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 19, 2013)

*Everyone I ever worked with would be ashamed to be seen with me*

if I ever dropped a tree with such a miserable excuse for a notch!



RandyMac said:


> 4X4, bet his head would explode with this one.


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## RandyMac (Apr 19, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> if I ever dropped a tree with such a miserable excuse for a notch!



you tryin' to be funny?


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## madhatte (Apr 19, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> you tryin' to be funny?



I honestly hope he is, because that's a pretty ignorant statement he made there. There are these strange things called "Circumstances" which have the nasty habit of rending "null and void" any thing that you know to be "true". That "miserable excuse for a notch" might be a terrible waste of materials and a hazard to equipment in a 50-year-old hardwood stand in the Ozarks, but is often a very solid compromise between safety and utilization in Coastal forests from CA to AK. One size does NOT fit all. 

Oh, and what's that I see? A wall? It seems awfully close to that tree... perhaps that's why the tree is being cut? I bet the owner of the structure doesn't want the tree to hit the wall... just guessing. You know, because I'm smart like that. Perhaps the cutter knows something about the tree species and how it behaves when cut which suggets that the aforementioned "miserable excuse for a notch" is in fact a functional adaptation to the situation at hand. I don't see a bull rope, or a backhoe, or any wedges, but I do see the kerf opening. It is opening in such a way as to suggest that the stem, when it falls, will indeed miss the wall. I will admit that I am just a dumb forester but it seems to me, with my worthless book-smarts, that missing the wall is probably a good thing. Could it be that the cutter knew what he was doing, and did it on purpose? 

I am willing to suspend disbelief, and give that there cutter the benefit of the doubt. It is possible that I don't know everything. It is likewise possible that if I have the decency to show folks who know things that I don't know a bit of respect, they will share their knowledge with me. I may have to buy them a beer or two in exchange for their instruction but that's a small price to pay for not having to re-invent the wheel.

Woodchuck357: folks hereabouts talk at the express risk of being called out. We are very interested in keeping each other from grave injury. Criticism here can save lives. It can also be background noise to be ignored. We are well-equipped to tell the difference. Don't be a jerk.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 19, 2013)

*Yeah, if I look at it just right, it's clear that notch-hinge combo*

will keep that trunk in a controlled fall all the way down! Always willing to learn different ways of doing things.:rolleyes2:


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## RandyMac (Apr 19, 2013)

It was a specialized, calculated face cut, used in a critical situation, probably beyond the understanding of a certain asinine flatlander.
We call it a block-cut, it is used to retain absolute control of the tree, during the fall, when the trunk contacts the stump and when the trunk leaves the stump. This is about how the tree falls and reacts to the ground, not just where it ends up.
There is no room for error with this one, powerlines close on the right, the chimney within two feet on left. Up the hill was a fire hydrant, electrical junction box, power pole and a shallow water main.


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## bitzer (Apr 19, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> It was a specialized, calculated face cut, used in a critical situation, probably beyond the understanding of a certain asinine flatlander.
> We call it a block-cut, it is used to retain absolute control of the tree, during the fall, when the trunk contacts the stump and when the trunk leaves the stump. This is about how the tree falls and reacts to the ground, not just where it ends up.
> There is no room for error with this one, powerlines close on the right, the chimney within two feet on left. Up the hill was a fire hydrant, electrical junction box, power pole and a shallow water main.



Hey Randy, what I wana know is who would plant a house so close to that tree? Haha. I bet yer guts were rollin and somthin was a little puckered when that thing started going over. Mine would have been! I've always liked that set of pics by the way. That and all of your other big timber pictures. That's the kind of stuff I see in my sleep.


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## slowp (Apr 19, 2013)

Don't try falling Alder without it!


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## roberte (Apr 19, 2013)

templar said:


> Guys before I leave this site (and it is a good forum with a shed load of good info) I will say this.....
> 
> 
> Every day fallers overcome and adapt to the situation they find themselves in .......it part of being a good faller ........getting the job done effectively and with minimal fuss.......but most importantly SAFELY.
> ...



hey templar, 
this makes it sound like your coming in stirring the pot then hitting the eject button. no sir you aint getting off that easy. see you on the next "humbolt vs overhand undercut, your thoughts" thread.
jhc


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 19, 2013)

Twochains, sorry about the hijack of your thread. 

I have used the jump cut (box notch)when logging down spars, I should have specified the notching was poor in the context of dropping near structure or any other situation where the fall zone is small with a chance of damage if it goes a little wrong.

I see it all the time, a logger decides his cutting technique qualifies him to drop trees in an urban environment. Most of the time they are wrong. They are frequently lucky, but not always.

The side effect of my comments is to illustrate the open minds and thick skins that populate this site.


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## roberte (Apr 19, 2013)

templar said:


> Urban or Forest makes no diff a good faller is a good faller and would suspect the faller has way more tricks in his bag than the urban version
> 
> 
> 
> Now how many folks do I have to pester before my account gets removed lol......I really do want it removed mods please ......I don't like loose ends



really dude....


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## jrcat (Apr 19, 2013)

templar said:


> yes really no loose ends



Really? For for lack of expletives why? Every one gets a little ruffled under the feathers every now and then but they dont up and leave. I tried that with me ex wife (like lots of feather ruffling). Oh well if ya go ya go .. Nice knowing ya and good luck.


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## roberte (Apr 19, 2013)

jrcat said:


> Really? For for lack of expletives why? Every one gets a little ruffled under the feathers every now and then but they dont up and leave. I tried that with me ex wife (like lots of feather ruffling). Oh well if ya go ya go .. Nice knowing ya and good luck.



no loose ends but keep coming back for more.
I stand by my "see you on the next falling uphill and backwards thread"


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## 056 kid (Apr 19, 2013)

templar said:


> Guys before I leave this site (and it is a good forum with a shed load of good info) I will say this.....
> 
> 
> Every day fallers overcome and adapt to the situation they find themselves in .......it part of being a good faller ........getting the job done effectively and with minimal fuss.......but most importantly SAFELY.
> ...




See ya........

(Edit), I was tryin to be nice, but since you send me a chitty message then choose not to receive them, 

Don't let the door hit you in your pained ass on the way out...


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## 4x4American (Apr 19, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> 4X4, bet his head would explode with this one.



haha yea that's for sure!


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## roberte (Apr 19, 2013)

roberte said:


> no loose ends *but keep coming back for more.*
> I stand by my "see you on the next falling uphill and backwards thread"





templar said:


> look I do have issues with folks being ridiculed seen it my whole life.......but the real reason I want to leave and hope it stops all the smart ass comments and the reason I'm effed off is 6 months ago my wife was diagnosed with cancer (yes she dragged her butt out today - the first for 4 weeks) so my temper is short at the moment and I have more to worry about. I joined her to try and get some relief but it just isn't working ..........my fault but I just need to clean house
> 
> 
> I wasn't going to say anything but maybe the comments will stop now please
> ...



sorry about the first scenario,
sure sounds like a green light for more in the second


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## RandyMac (Apr 19, 2013)

Farewell Cousin, Godspeed.


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## 056 kid (Apr 19, 2013)

Sorry to hear that,I suppose you can let the door hit you if you do decide to leave, but there's no need.


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## roberte (Apr 19, 2013)

056 kid said:


> Sorry to hear that,I suppose you can let the door hit you if you do decide to leave, but there's no need.



no need, hes like the terminator, he'll be baaack


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## roberte (Apr 19, 2013)

templar said:


> That is why I'm back here to try and get my nearest treated (we have an NHS which is free) and why I'm on here at weird times I am trying to juggle a business which my brother in law has screwed up and he wants to retire ................trying to look after the wife.............and still fall.....I love falling just love it.........hence the thread on apprentices ..............I would like to have something if all don't go well at home.
> 
> 
> I'm looking for no sympathy and you guys will never know how much it took to say and tell you guys. I don't do feelings real well.
> ...



View attachment 291286


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## northmanlogging (Apr 19, 2013)

We'll see ya round templar... good luck with the Hel yer going through.


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## RandyMac (Apr 20, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Twochains, sorry about the hijack of your thread.
> 
> I have used the jump cut (box notch)when logging down spars, I should have specified the notching was poor in the context of dropping near structure or any other situation where the fall zone is small with a chance of damage if it goes a little wrong.
> 
> ...



Keep talking #######, it is revealing the depth of your ignorance.


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## 4x4American (Apr 20, 2013)

Randy after looking more closely at the first pic you posted, I noticed how close you had to cut to the wall...it looks like the dang tree was touching the wall! Really cool pic! I gotta say that woodchuck at least picked the right username, he sho ams a woodchuck


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

Good luck with the missus. Hopefully everything turns out well. My mother lost her BF to pancreatic cancer 3 years ago in may. That was rough. My daughters loved him dearly and he always had time for me.


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## roberte (Apr 20, 2013)

templar said:


> Thanks guys messages of support much appreciated
> 
> 
> Well missus been admitted to hosp she throwin up
> ...



Hey Templar,
Congrats or I'm sorry for being a Scot, my bad. You still came back.
If you want to show me that jacking procedure, I'm hiding in plain sight, LOL


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