# Safety Alert: Stop Use Petzl ZIGZAG



## Justin.at.Petzl (Apr 19, 2013)

As a follow-up to Petzl's previous Saftey Information issued April 15, and after conducting additional testing, Petzl is issuing a Stop-Use Safety Alert for the ZIGZAG mechanical Prusik.
 
Petzl asks all ZIGZAG users to do the following:
*- Stop use of the ZIGZAG Mechanical Prusik immediately
- Download and read the Safety Alert PDF containing important information (linked to below)
*
Safety Alert: Stop use Petzl ZIGZAG Mechanical Prusik 

Petzl appreciates your help and patience in this matter, and we sincerely apologize for this inconvenience.

Rick Vance
Technical Information Manager
Petzl America


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## Pelorus (Apr 19, 2013)

"In this configuration, we have observed a failure of the rope end attachment hole of the ZIGZAG under 4 kN of load (equivalent to short fall, repeated shock or sudden stop, etc)."

What does that say of the thoroughness of your testing procedures BEFORE Petzl started distributing the ZigZag?


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## treemandan (Apr 19, 2013)

No problem, I'll stop using it just as soon as you give me 1000 dollars for the one I am using right now.


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## Pelorus (Apr 19, 2013)

I am willing to return mine for $650 + shipping.
Payment must be received prior to shipping, of course.


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## deevo (Apr 19, 2013)

Wow, Jared lucky you unloaded yours when you did! Glad I didn't buy one ....yet.....never


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 19, 2013)

I can't get that link to work for some reason. Can anyone post the pdf?


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## treemandan (Apr 19, 2013)

deevo said:


> Wow, Jared lucky you unloaded yours when you did! Glad I didn't buy one ....yet.....never



Not really. Think about the poor bastard that got it. Besides, it seems that if you own one you could make profit selling it back to the people who made it. That's the American Way right? 

I gotta say I have used Pretzle's hand ascender for over 10 years, it has never given me trouble even though it appears to be chinsey. It is, in fact, chinsey. There is not much to it, kinda like a die cast metal toy. I have always used a backup rope with it and as far as all this mechanical gear goes these days well I just don't know.


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## deevo (Apr 19, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Not really. Think about the poor bastard that got it. Besides, it seems that if you own one you could make profit selling it back to the people who made it. That's the American Way right?
> 
> I gotta say I have used Pretzle's hand ascender for over 10 years, it has never given me trouble even though it appears to be chinsey. It is, in fact, chinsey. There is not much to it, kinda like a die cast metal toy. I have always used a backup rope with it and as far as all this mechanical gear goes these days well I just don't know.



Yep:msp_wink:


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## treemandan (Apr 19, 2013)

Justin.at.Petzl said:


> As a follow-up to Petzl's previous Saftey Information issued April 15, and after conducting additional testing, Petzl is issuing a Stop-Use Safety Alert for the ZIGZAG mechanical Prusik.
> 
> Petzl asks all ZIGZAG users to do the following:
> *- Stop use of the ZIGZAG Mechanical Prusik immediately
> ...



Screw you and the Zig Zag you climbed in on. Why I know 4 billion Chinamen that would take yer job in a heartbeat for half of what yer making if they could only speak English. Why I would drink half a bottle of vodka, smoke 6 Marlboros and beat you over the head with yer two hundred and thirty five dollar piece of ####### crap that you spent 6 hours in a toy store playing with before you shipped it over seas for production to ship it back to call it glory. You can take that thing, smear it with KY and twiggle it up yer ass Technical Information Manager or not. If you got something to say to change my mind then say it.


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## treemandan (Apr 19, 2013)

deevo said:


> Yep:msp_wink:



Jared is a sucker for anything new and shiny. When he told me he bought one I was flabbergasted. I amost gave his a try... almost. 

They use those Pretzle swivels at my kid's gymnastics school, I have said to them, " you know... that don't last forever." And to think that companies like Sherrill are pushing that flimsey stuff into this world of treework is somewhat astounding.


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## richard t (Apr 19, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Screw you and the Zig Zag you climbed in on. Why I know 4 billion Chinamen that would take yer job in a heartbeat for half of what yer making if they could only speak English. Why I would drink half a bottle of vodka, smoke 6 Marlboros and beat you over the head with yer two hundred and thirty five dollar piece of ####### crap that you spent 6 hours in a toy store playing with before you shipped it over seas for production to ship it back to call it glory. You can take that thing, smear it with KY and twiggle it up yer ass Technical Information Manager or not. If you got something to say to change my mind then say it.





Lets hear what you really think about it dan :msp_biggrin:


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## Pelorus (Apr 19, 2013)

richard t said:


> Lets hear what you really think about it dan :msp_biggrin:



I think I got the gist of it.....a subtle overtone of unhappiness. :msp_rolleyes:


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## treemandan (Apr 19, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I think I got the gist of it.....a subtle overtone of unhappiness. :msp_rolleyes:



How did they test this thing? With a bunch of Technical Managers in an air conditioned warehouse drinking carmel nut macchiatoes checking out each other's saddle bulge?

Saddle bulge = when yer genetailia is all scrumped up from the leg straps of yer saddle and is protruding obscenely and in a grotesque manner.:msp_unsure:


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## treemandan (Apr 19, 2013)

And I didn't even buy one of those things!


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## ArborItaly (Apr 20, 2013)

hey guys i heard about this petzl ZIGZAG too... it append all because here in europe precisely in germany, a guy was working with that crap and the system fail he really hurt himself, so petzl is questioning him to understand what causes the failure, they'r tray to said that was hes fault cuz i didn't insert the rope the right way, but apparently the truth is that the hole on top of the system, where the rope goes true, busted open, that is pretty bad.
i personally will never use something like that, especially in tree climbing, because i think that wood chips or leaf can get inside the system and causes jamming or total failure, i guess petzl screwed up on this one. :msp_scared:


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## imagineero (Apr 20, 2013)

I've been using petzl products for rock climbing, industrial access, rescue work and tree work for about 20 years now, and I've always found them to be very good. Their safety and testing far exceeds most other companies out there,the products are field tested extensively before being released, and they are very serious about following up on any incidents and making design changes as necessary. If there were medical bills to pay, petzl would step up to the plate.... unlike Kong etc.

Looking at the photos, and the nature of the failure, I'm wondering why other devices havent failed in a similar way. There certainly is potential to. A hitch climber pulley, for example, could have the carabiner get caught in one of the rings and get twisted/broken in a similar way. Or any mechanical ascender, or any device that has a narrow opening for a carabiner to attach. Devices like the unicender are at very little risk of this happening, though it's not inconceivable that a spiderjack would fail in the same way under the right circumstances. The hole is very small, and even though it's rounded, I think I could break it in an hour or two using a weight similar to a person. By setting the carabiner as per the failed petzl device and shock loading it, I think you'd see a failure.

The question is how to prevent it. There are a couple of options - make the holes a lot bigger, so a carabiner cant get caught, or make the holes a lot smoother/rounder and use a soft link between the device and the carabiner. 

Shaun


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## Pelorus (Apr 20, 2013)

I think it is quite odd, Shaun that this product has experienced a failure of this type within 3 months of being sold, whereas others that you mentioned have been around for years without similar incident. Also, why would this company not have included a cross-loading scenario in it's product testing? Right from the get go the zigzag was only designed for (slightly above) 15 KN load. Why not 23KN or more? Cause it would have added an extra ounce or two to the wight? Cause it might have made the unit slightly bulkier? 

The trend I see here with Petzl seems to be focused way too much on making their products smaller and lighter. As in the new versions of their Croll, Pantin, and Grigri. Personally, I definitely prefer my CMI foot ascender (heavier, sturdier construction, and with a protective sleeve in the foot loop webbing) to my older Pantin. If I have to be physically fit enough to use a chainsaw in a tree, then why should I be expected to trust my life to some flimsy piece of stamped aluminum that Petzl engineers are focused on making even smaller and flimsier? Petzl's design philosophy is headed in the wrong direction, and I hope this ZigZag fiasco serves as a wakeup call to their R&D and engineering departments.


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## imagineero (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm certainly not here championing Petzl's cause, merely trying to put some sort of rational argument forward to counter the hysterics that have been posted on the previous page. I should say that I don't own and would never buy a zigzag, and have spoken out against them in other threads, but when it comes to manufacturing of heights safety equipment, Petzl has no real competition. I think in general many other rope access companies could learn from them.

I'll agree it's odd to have a failure so soon, but that doesn't mean it couldnt happen with other similar products as I have mentioned. It also doesn't mean that there would be a second failure in 3 months time, or ever, if nothing was done about the design. I think this really was quite a freak accident. Regardless, it will be corrected as it ought to be. Will other companies with much smaller R&D and testing departments, and a much looser testing regime now go and revisit their products? I think not.

As for your very valid question of why 15kn and not the more widely adopted 22kn standard for general life support, I don't have an answer. Im guessing it's partly because of the doubled rope system we use meaning that the product really only need be rated for 11kn to be the equivalent of an SRT product rated at 22kn. I don't know the spec for the unicender, spiderjack etc, but I would guess that they wouldn't be rated for 22kn either. I know from reading many independant tests of different styles of prussik knots that many of the knots we use every day slip at 4kn-6kn, and fail at 10-12kn. I can dig up some links for these if you'd be interested.

I'll agree with that trend you mentioned, but thats the way of mountaineering/rock climbing products. The products are designed with a target market in mind. Petzl makes many different types of products. Some, like the croll, gri gri and pantin are designed for markets where light weight is of importance. They are not intended for industrial use. Their industrial and rescue products are much more substantial, higher rated, better made, and appropriately priced. I have the older croll (a couple of them), an original, and a second generation grigri and have owned the pantin which I very much disliked. I own and use the CMI ascender and much prefer it. 

None of those points change the subject of the zig zag, it's failure, what ought to be done about it, and whether other products from other manufacturers may be at risk of a similar failure. My opinion is that the failure was a freak accident, and that other similar products from other manufacturers are at risk of similar failures under the same circumstances. Petzl will address the problem, and find an appropriate solution. By then it will have hurt their entry into the tree products segment very badly, which is a shame because they have brought out some quite good products (sequoia swing harness, ascentree, treesbee etc). I think it's a good thing to see a major player like Petzl taking the tree service industry seriously, and designing products specifically for our use. 

Shaun


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## TreeAce (Apr 20, 2013)

I still find it hard to believe the zig zag failed under conditions of normal use. Mine works great and I hope (and predict) they will clear the device for use soon. I cant say to much about the ranting on the previous page because I feel the same way about a few products myself. In the past I read a post about a certain rigging device that had some reference to a dog in its name. The post comment was "they wont stop with this stupid crap until someone dies". Cant say I have heard of any accidents involving that thing though. But if someone was using the thing recklessly they could damn sure make it happen. I for one think Petzl will take care of things just fine. But for now the ZZ goes on the shelf, I just hope not for ever cuz its a great tool.


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## Pelorus (Apr 20, 2013)

I think there is a big problem when a company (Petzl) will design an item (ZigZag) intended for life support to only marginally exceed a minimum strength standard. As a zigzag owner, I think that how Petzl addresses their/my problem is certainly gonna determine any future Petzl product purchases from this consumer. This is like getting served a lousy meal at a prestigious restaurant...do you go back again? Personally, I won't. Got really sick after eating some IKEA hotdogs a couple of years ago. Have never gone back to roll to dice again.


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## imagineero (Apr 20, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I think there is a big problem when a company (Petzl) will design an item (ZigZag) intended for life support to only marginally exceed a minimum strength standard. As a zigzag owner, I think that how Petzl addresses their/my problem is certainly gonna determine any future Petzl product purchases from this consumer. This is like getting served a lousy meal at a prestigious restaurant...do you go back again? Personally, I won't. Got really sick after eating some IKEA hotdogs a couple of years ago. Have never gone back to roll to dice again.



I don't know how they arrived at that figure, but again, I'll state that it exceeds by far the pre existing standard of a prussik which will slip at as little as 4kn. We're a fussy bunch for sure. For me, I'd never buy a zig zag. I think it's a poor design, too large and cumbersome, and I just plain don't like the look of it. I borrowed a spiderjack for a while and tried that too, but it was really finnicky to use. Maybe it's because I'm too heavy. It seems to suit climbers who weigh a lot less than I do. Maybe that's the trouble with mechanical devices in general, and the biggest reason why there hasnt yet (to my mind) been a suitable replacement for the friction hitch created. Friction hitches are so tunable for different scenarios. There are many variables in our game; weight of the climber, diameter of the rope, friction at the crotch, or friction saver, wet rope, old rope, fast descent, slow descent, different types of ropes etc.... not only can you change between different types of hitches easily, but any given hitch can be tied, set and dressed to give you the amount of friction you are looking for. You can really tweak them to get what you want. That's something that I haven't found with mechanical devices; they're sort of a 'one setting' kind of a deal. 

The funniest thing is, I was rock climbing, caving, canyoning, doing rescue work and industrial access for many years before I came to tree climbing. I just couldn't accept the friction hitch as a work positioning tool initially. It seemed crazy! I'd used prussiks in past as a back up, or for ascending in a pinch, but would never dream of using a single prussik as my only life support. I started climbing trees using mechanical ascenders and descenders which is what I was familiar with. What a pain! Reluctantly I started trying hitches, and I realised it was the only tool that suited this type of work. Hitches themselves are far from foolproof, they require strict attention. One wrong move and you can easily take a ride to the ground. I can see a day where hitches will be banned by safety departments for use. They're not legal in any other industrial/roped discipline. Hopefully there is a more suitable mechanical device available by that time.

I'd suggest you contact petzl directly, put your name on the list and see how they resolve your problem. They have a long track record of being great supporters of industry. Not just in terms of industry specific products, but as educators, and sponsors of events. They've been great long term supporters of rock climbing in general, funding competitions, creating new routes, encouraging people to participate. Not just as a one off, but year after year, around the world. It would be a good thing for our industry to have that kind of support. 

Shaun


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I think there is a big problem when a company (Petzl) will design an item (ZigZag) intended for life support to only marginally exceed a minimum strength standard. As a zigzag owner, I think that how Petzl addresses their/my problem is certainly gonna determine any future Petzl product purchases from this consumer. This is like getting served a lousy meal at a prestigious restaurant...do you go back again? Personally, I won't. Got really sick after eating some IKEA hotdogs a couple of years ago. Have never gone back to roll to dice again.



IKEA hot dogs? Did you have to put it together yourself?


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## lone wolf (Apr 20, 2013)

https://petzl.box.com/zigzagrecallnotice2013


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## MarquisTree (Apr 20, 2013)

Petzl makes some really cool innovative products. Unfortunately they come from the rock climbing industry. This is an industry where guys talk about throwing someone off a cliff if you step on someone’s line. We are in the tree industry. We work in a very imperfect world. I hated the zigzag the first time I saw it, a new hire wanted to use it off the crane. I wasn’t comfortable with it, it would be subjected to many more cycles then it was ever intended to. We all hated that upper attachment point.

I have bought the guys many petzl saddles, I am completely done with that. Every petzl saddle I have bought (6-7 I have lost count) has started falling apart within 6 months, usually junk within a year. Justin had the seat on one of his break in half. I will not buy them for our climbers anymore. They are light, innovative, and very well thought out, but lack the extra reinforcement necessary to last in the tree industry. The past 4 saddles I have bought have been the Buckingham deluxe line, the oldest is 2+ years old and has been used daily 50+ hr weeks and looks as good as the day I bought it. Zero signs of wear, no broken leg straps, literately no signs of wear.


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## lone wolf (Apr 20, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Petzl makes some really cool innovative products. Unfortunately they come from the rock climbing industry. This is an industry where guys talk about throwing someone off a cliff if you step on someone’s line. We are in the tree industry. We work in a very imperfect world. I hated the zigzag the first time I saw it, a new hire wanted to use it off the crane. I wasn’t comfortable with it, it would be subjected to many more cycles then it was ever intended to. We all hated that upper attachment point.
> 
> I have bought the guys many petzl saddles, I am completely done with that. Every petzl saddle I have bought (6-7 I have lost count) has started falling apart within 6 months, usually junk within a year. Justin had the seat on one of his break in half. I will not buy them for our climbers anymore. They are light, innovative, and very well thought out, but lack the extra reinforcement necessary to last in the tree industry. The past 4 saddles I have bought have been the Buckingham deluxe line, the oldest is 2+ years old and has been used daily 50+ hr weeks and looks as good as the day I bought it. Zero signs of wear, no broken leg straps, literately no signs of wear.


Any Ergovation use?


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## MarquisTree (Apr 20, 2013)

lone wolf said:


> Any Ergovation use?



No. Honestly have such a bad taste from the three models of Petzl we have used I don't even want to try it. Justin was interested in it, but even he is hesitant after how quickly they have all worn out.


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## TreeAce (Apr 20, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Petzl makes some really cool innovative products. Unfortunately they come from the rock climbing industry. This is an industry where guys talk about throwing someone off a cliff if you step on someone’s line. We are in the tree industry. We work in a very imperfect world. I hated the zigzag the first time I saw it, a new hire wanted to use it off the crane. I wasn’t comfortable with it, it would be subjected to many more cycles then it was ever intended to. We all hated that upper attachment point.
> 
> I have bought the guys many petzl saddles, I am completely done with that. Every petzl saddle I have bought (6-7 I have lost count) has started falling apart within 6 months, usually junk within a year. Justin had the seat on one of his break in half. I will not buy them for our climbers anymore. They are light, innovative, and very well thought out, but lack the extra reinforcement necessary to last in the tree industry. The past 4 saddles I have bought have been the Buckingham deluxe line, the oldest is 2+ years old and has been used daily 50+ hr weeks and looks as good as the day I bought it. Zero signs of wear, no broken leg straps, literately no signs of wear.


My sequoia has held up well. It has seen a lot of use and has been an excellent purchase.


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## TreeAce (Apr 20, 2013)

Although it is a bit lacking with any saw much bigger than a 200t hanging from it. If you want a 460 at your side doing big removals than ya its no good.


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## lone wolf (Apr 20, 2013)

I wonder if the Petzel carabiners are reliable?


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## Grace Tree (Apr 20, 2013)

Ergovation's made by Buckingham. Great saddle.
Phil


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## lone wolf (Apr 20, 2013)

Small Wood said:


> Ergovation's made by Buckingham. Great saddle.
> Phil



Can I swap the rope bridge for a sliding double D bridge ? We just ordered one with a rope bridge. What bridge you using Phil?


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## MarquisTree (Apr 20, 2013)

Small Wood said:


> Ergovation's made by Buckingham. Great saddle.
> Phil



That's right. Sorry I was thinking about another Petzl model.


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## Grace Tree (Apr 20, 2013)

lone wolf said:


> Can I swap the rope bridge for a sliding double D bridge ? We just ordered one with a rope bridge. What bridge you using Phil?



Not really. I'm still using the original bridge. Looks like Velocity. Here's a link to the instruction manual. You need Adobe reader. 

Buckingham Manufacturing Company, Inc.: Ergovation

Ergo is the most comfortable saddle I've used. I'm top heavy with short legs and it's the first saddle I've ever been able to adjust to get a good balance.
Phil


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## lone wolf (Apr 20, 2013)

Small Wood said:


> Not really. I'm still using the original bridge. Looks like Velocity. Here's a link to the instruction manual. You need Adobe reader.
> 
> Buckingham Manufacturing Company, Inc.: Ergovation
> 
> ...



You have to put all that together? :msp_scared:


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## Grace Tree (Apr 20, 2013)

No, it comes together. You just have to dismantle it enough to adjust everything. Doesn't take long.
Phil


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## smokey01 (Apr 20, 2013)

imagineero said:


> The question is how to prevent it. There are a couple of options - make the holes a lot bigger, so a carabiner cant get caught, or make the holes a lot smoother/rounder and use a soft link between the device and the carabiner.
> Shaun


You watch, they are going to come out with a advisory about making sure the carabiner remains oriented correctly and then they will send everyone a 2.00 rubber carabiner trap. I highly doubt refunds and recall.


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## derwoodii (Apr 21, 2013)

Sad bad for the guy who took the fall finding the weak link for many of us 1st. I liked the look & mech of the ziz zag but was kinda concerned about the strength under load of the pivot point myself i did say


> I am troubled by the housing hiding the ball swivel joint weak point sure its engineered for x to the power weight but as I could no see wear point it leaves me just thinkin


knowing that work climbing is dynamic so things get moved and pushed around and not always set up perfect like a factory load test. 




http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/231929-6.htm#post4257653


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## NCTREE (Apr 21, 2013)

lone wolf said:


> I wonder if the Petzel carabiners are reliable?



Does make you think about it, when you rely on a product with your life and hear about this ####!


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## imagineero (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, how can you rely on any carabiner, from any manufacturer? Or any rope, or harness? Or even the tree that you are attaching them to? You can get a bit silly about this kind of stuff.

Petzl's QA and QC is as good as anybody's, and they were pioneers in their industry apply the 3 sigma standard which most other reputable companies have also applied (black diamaond, DMM). The rest is just common sense - inspect your gear regularly, take personal responsibility of your own safety.

Shaun


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## lone wolf (Apr 21, 2013)

Small Wood said:


> No, it comes together. You just have to dismantle it enough to adjust everything. Doesn't take long.
> Phil



Ok good looked like a lot of stuff to deal with. Do you know what knots are on the rope bridge?


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## Grace Tree (Apr 21, 2013)

Half a double fisherman, I guess. What's that called? There's instructions for bridge knot tying in the manual.
Phil


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## smokey01 (Apr 21, 2013)

Small Wood said:


> Half a double fisherman, I guess. What's that called? There's instructions for bridge knot tying in the manual.
> Phil



It is simply a double overhand stopper knot. If it did not mention the "insert the working end back through the two *crossed round* turns" it would be similar to the HH stopper knot of which I have concerns and posted a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFXEgeRgeEc


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## lone wolf (Apr 21, 2013)

NCTREE said:


> Does make you think about it, when you rely on a product with your life and hear about this ####!



Use two


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## lone wolf (Apr 21, 2013)

This rope bridge cant be swapped for a sliding D bridge are you sure? I see they sell the D bridges? I am not a fan of the two knots in there!


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## NewGuyMA (Apr 21, 2013)

treemandan said:


> How did they test this thing? With a bunch of Technical Managers in an air conditioned warehouse drinking carmel nut macchiatoes checking out each other's saddle bulge?
> 
> Saddle bulge = when yer genetailia is all scrumped up from the leg straps of yer saddle and is protruding obscenely and in a grotesque manner.:msp_unsure:



Too funny. ha ha ha


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## lxt (Apr 21, 2013)

treemandan said:


> And I didn't even buy one of those things!



Then S T F U!!!!!!!!!!!!


wasnt this the device treevet was gonna train his new climbers on to make them faster? LOL



LXT.....


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## Grace Tree (Apr 21, 2013)

lone wolf said:


> This rope bridge cant be swapped for a sliding D bridge are you sure? I see they sell the D bridges? I am not a fan of the two knots in there!


I'm wrong. Looks like they can. Looks like a whole bunch of options I didn't know about. I love this saddle so much I just stopped looking at saddles completely. Here's the Wesspur link and a photo.
View attachment 291719

Ergovation Tree Saddle


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## lone wolf (Apr 21, 2013)

Small Wood said:


> I'm wrong. Looks like they can. Looks like a whole bunch of options I didn't know about. I love this saddle so much I just stopped looking at saddles completely. Here's the Wesspur link and a photo.
> View attachment 291719
> 
> Ergovation Tree Saddle



Good news you can add what ever you want I see.


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 23, 2013)

lone wolf said:


> I wonder if the Petzel carabiners are reliable?




Considering they are probably the market leader when it comes to climbing systems world wide, if they weren't reliable, we would know about it.

I have been using there biners for 25 years without trouble.


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## Pelorus (Apr 23, 2013)

I stopped using Petzl ball lock biners a long time ago. Would freeze up in the winter, which was a pain, but worse was that eventually the ball stops locking - the gate can get pushed open without depressing the ball. If you have one, try doing that, and see if the locking mechanism is tight or sloppy.......or pretty much nonexistent.


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## lone wolf (Apr 23, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I stopped using Petzl ball lock biners a long time ago. Would freeze up in the winter, which was a pain, but worse was that eventually the ball stops locking - the gate can get pushed open without depressing the ball. If you have one, try doing that, and see if the locking mechanism is tight or sloppy.......or pretty much nonexistent.



I use them and had that happen once with an old one the new ones work. What do you use now?


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## Pelorus (Apr 23, 2013)

Am'Ds (tri-acts). I like the gate a lot better than the ball locks.


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## smokey01 (Apr 23, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> ....ng time ago. Would freeze up in the winter, which was a pain, .........



Freezing up in the winter may not be a problem with the biner.........."Blame Canada"


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## Pelorus (Apr 23, 2013)

Them little dinky green plastic balls on them biners can be a real pain in the butt when you end up having to take off your trigger finger winter gauntlets every time you want to open a biner. You Southern gents have no idea some of the hardships that us Northeners have to overcome. :cool2:


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## smokey01 (Apr 24, 2013)

smokey01 said:


> You watch, they are going to come out with …I highly doubt refunds and recall.


Looks like I have to eat my words. Petzl Is a truly stand tall company. 
No doubt they put safety, quality and customer care above corporate profits, I take if my hat (actualy my Petzl helmet) to those guys and will wait now to 2014 to get my Zigzag.


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