# HELP - TREE IDENIFICATION NEEDED - Pictures Attached



## jacksonp (Dec 17, 2012)

HELP - TREE IDENIFICATION NEEDED - Hey everyone, looking at buying a 39 inch by 15 ft trunk of chinese elm. This is what he says it is. I don`t know what else to ask him to inquire further. Any information will help. I will post the pics below. My intention is to mill it into live edge slabs for table tops and benches. It looks like the inner ring, heart wood I think, is fairly small and so I presume the colour of the wood may lack character. I can`t tell how big the dark inner ring is at the base of the large log I am interested in. The log he will sell for 100, and it will take be about two hours to get there with a machine and trailer to load it. So with gas prices and everything involved in this, is it worth it - I appreciate all advice and experience. Also, I am located in South Western Ontario close to Lake Ontario in Coburg if that helps. Any info about drying or anything else would be much appreciated. Thanks Again


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## cityslicker (Dec 17, 2012)

I would buy it in a minute! That log looks awesome! What will your cost be to pick it up and transport it to the mill you have in mind, then transport the huge slabs to your property and stack them? If all that is with in reasonable cost I personally would not hesitate. Do you have a mill lined up that can flitch cut that size of log? Elm or Oak? If it's freshly cut smell the raw wood, does it smell really weird like a barnyard? Some elm will make your hands smell like you have been shoveling old manure in a barnyard, Red elm being one of them I believe. Are there any old leaves lying around near the stump? If you can shoot a close up macro photo of the grain it may help. Please for my sanity keep us informed of what you do and try to post some pics! Very exciting!


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## Cody Colston (Dec 17, 2012)

I would pass. In fact, I would offer to haul it off if the the owner pays YOU $100. Even then, it would not be much of a deal considering your transportation and milling costs.


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## marti384 (Dec 17, 2012)

It looks similar to cottonwood to me. But I don't know if I have seen chinese elm, so he could be right.


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## tomtrees58 (Dec 17, 2012)

its cottonwood or tulp junk wood


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## jacksonp (Dec 17, 2012)

tomtrees58 said:


> its cottonwood or tulp junk wood



I am very new to this game - Could you explain why you do not think it is elm?


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## jacksonp (Dec 17, 2012)

And I am not trying to make a profit - more just to get my feet wet drying some nice wood that may one day may a live edge table top. Still no?


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## mikeb1079 (Dec 17, 2012)

> I would pass. In fact, I would offer to haul it off if the the owner pays YOU $100



exactly. i know from your post that you're hungry for wood. i was there and know the feeling. but i would pass. driving 2 hours each way with large expensive equipment and burning an entire day so that you can pay someone 100 bucks? nope. now if it was a really unique/unusual log or had some sentimental value then sure, spend the time.

keep an eye on this fellow, in a month or two when he still has a 5 ton log sitting in his yard he may politely ask you to remove it for free. 





ps it doesn't look like the cottonwood we have around here. i've not seen a small defined circle of dark heart wood like that in cottonwood. (though i am no expert).


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## jacksonp (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks for the Info Evryone I will have to pass on this one.


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## cityslicker (Dec 18, 2012)

I don't think it's cottonwood either look at my post about the cottonwood I milled a couple months ago. The color is quite uniform yellow, creamy white with no heavy red. I did see some wil tulip poplar logs in a google image search though. Here is a freshly broken branch of what I think is red elm showing the very dark red and the smell is really strong. Are you wanting to build just a few items for your house or are you wanting to start stocking up on inventory? If just a few items then it may be less of a headache to just buy some already dry slabs. Maybe run a simple cost comparison? BUTTTTT! I'm just sayin' if I found that guy with that log that appears to be solid throughout for 100 bucks with in 2 hours driving I would talk him into letting me mill it where it sits into slabs. Also it really looks like there are left over leaves down on the ground in the first picture, try to get him to gather leaves that are around the stump area and take some up close photos, that is likely your best bet till you can actually get your saw in the wood to see the grain composition up close. 

View attachment 268340


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## Sethsfirewood (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm no expert either, but any chance this is an Ash? the exterior knots and bark are certainly consistent with most Ash species.


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## brookpederson (Dec 18, 2012)

Looks like cottonwood to me, big chunky bark. But one way to find out if it's Chinese elm is to smell it, they call it piss elm for a reason it smells like piss when you cut it. Anyways, if it's Chinese elm or cottonwood it's not worth a trip like that. I wouldn't travel 1/2 a mile for it


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## BlueRider (Dec 19, 2012)

It's deffinately not chinese elm (ulmas parvifolia) which has very thin almost smooth scaly bark with a slight orange tint to it. By the way Chinese elm has a very spicy almost peppery scent to it and compleately lacks the typical barnyard scent of the other types of elm.

I suppose it could be siberian elm (ulmas pumila) which due to being native to Asia is sometimes also called chinese elm. it has thick furowed bark like the logs in your pictures. the sap wood is nearly white with a dark brown heart wood. 

Siberian elm is prized as a furniture wood and has very stricking grain when plain sawn and often has a grain pattern sometimes called plum pudding figure. It is a larger and less even type of birdseye.

Siberian is a bit softer than red elm but it is still hard and very strong and like the other elms it is very harsh on edge tools and blades. All of the elms sand well and take a nice finish. that said elm is one of my favorite woods for making firniture out of.

If it is siberian elm the price for the log is fair but the cost and time to retrieve it could be the deal breaker. Google siberian elm lumber and decide for yourself if it is something you would like to have


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## stltreedr (Dec 19, 2012)

+1 cottonwood.


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## bootboy (Dec 19, 2012)

Edit: wrong pic.

+2 for cottonwood. Most of the stuff I cut here has that yellow sapwood and light brown heartwood.
Pic of a monster that I butchered up after it fell in a storm:


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## qbilder (Dec 20, 2012)

I'd be 99% sure it's elm. Close up pics of the end grain would be a sure way to know, but just seeing the bark and growth pattern, it screams elm. The bark does indeed look similar to cottonwood on the larger trees. Smaller trees will have scaly bark. Sometimes you get lucky and the wood is walnut brown. Sometimes it's just a dark blonde. Here's a table I made from it. The wood is more yellow/tan than the walnut brown, but I have milled some of the dark stuff.


















As to what the log is worth, is entirely up to you. I'd give $100 for it if I had the equipment to load/handle it and didn't need that money to feed my kids. It has great crotches & several of them. Those areas will make for some interesting wood for sure. You may get lucky and find birdseye but I usually find that on limbs, rarely on the main trunk. Here in the high desert, Siberian elm is one of the few tree size hardwoods we have, and we have lots of them. Somebody 100 years ago thought it was a good idea to plant them in yards and along streets. Now they're everywhere.


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## rarefish383 (Dec 22, 2012)

I just can't get the pics big enough. They look like Poplar to me. One thing I agree on is, let them sit till the grass is two feet high around them, and then offer to haul them away. After 4 generations, and 40 years, in the residential tree business, I can tell you one thing for sure, a mill won't touch that log, yard tree with too much risk of foreign material in it. It's worth what you can get for it. In basic form that's firewood, 200 bucks a cord, after you split and stack it. If you can find someone to convince it is special and worth more the sky is the limit. You are the one he is trying to convince it's special. Try contacting your local tree services. Some of the biggest, premium logs for us chainsaw millers are the biggest headaches for them. When I was still in business I would gladly pic that up with the knuckle boom and drop it at your place for 50 bucks to cover fuel, rather than take it to my wood lot and pay guys ten bucks an hour to cut up wood that is not really good fire wood. One mans trash is anothers treasure. It's up to you to convince him that's a giant piece of trash, and when the grass is two feet high, you have the evidence on your side. Then take it home and turn it into treasure.

Check out Daninvans post "on the beach again" and you will see some of the giant wood his local tree services through away, Joe.


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## rayvil01 (Dec 26, 2012)

It sure looks like Tulip Poplar from here. FWIW.


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## Jim_I (Dec 28, 2012)

Bark looks like Tulip Tree (Liriodendron tulipifera) to me. If I'm right, the leaves have four lobes and kind of look like a mitten with thumbs on both sides. I don't think it is an Ash as the bark looks too deeply furrowed to me. Bark looks similar to Cottonwood or Chinese Chestnut. Cottonwood is a true Poplar and has sharply toothed leaves. Chinese Chestnut also has sharply toothed leaves. The problem here is one of positive identification. Trees often have different common names depending upon the region, but each tree has only one scientific (latin) name. For instance, Tulip Tree is also called Tulip Poplar and Yellow Poplar even though it isn't a true Poplar, but can be positively identified when using the latin name given above. My neighbor had a couple of Pin Oaks (Quercus palustris) growing in his yard. He called them "Woods Oak" trees because he dug them up in the woods. You see the problem. Be nice to see some leaves. Me, I'd offer to cut it up for firewood and haul it off. Maybe cut some 2-3" thick slabs for table tops.


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## treetoad44 (Dec 29, 2012)

In Ontario that log is poplar " JUNK WOOD " that is eastern cottonwood a member of the poplar family . The guy is shooting you a line. The tree company who cut that tree down probably wanted 1000$ bucks to haul it to the dump. Stay away


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## TreeLogic (Feb 12, 2013)

*Elm? Don't think so.*

Tulip poplar, cottonwood, maybe even sweet gum or tupelo gum, which I've seen with darker heartwood sometimes. Tulip poplar always seems to have more yellow in the heart than brown, though. Definitely not American elm, Ulmus americana, which is what that table pic looks like. Cut down a big one of those and you know you've got something nice. And the only elms I've seen with bark like the pics are those crappy looking ones people buy by mistake, thinking they're getting parvifolia (Chinese elm). They don't grow anywhere near that big. Of course, different regions, different trees. No elms like that here though.


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## qbilder (Feb 12, 2013)

TreeLogic said:


> Tulip poplar, cottonwood, maybe even sweet gum or tupelo gum, which I've seen with darker heartwood sometimes. Tulip poplar always seems to have more yellow in the heart than brown, though. Definitely not American elm, Ulmus americana, which is what that table pic looks like. Cut down a big one of those and you know you've got something nice. And the only elms I've seen with bark like the pics are those crappy looking ones people buy by mistake, thinking they're getting parvifolia (Chinese elm). They don't grow anywhere near that big. Of course, different regions, different trees. No elms like that here though.



The table is made of Chinese elm. They get MUCH bigger here than what I made the table from. Their bark is rough & deep furrowed like the pic. Around here, the only elm we have is "Chinese" which is called Siberian. And it looks exactly like what's in the pics. Growing next to a cottonwood, you can only tell the difference by small details in the bark, or by looking at the leaves.

A close pic of the end grain would say it all. No more guessing.


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 12, 2013)

I find it VERY hard to identify a tree on the net, but it looks like cotton wood to me too.

I like cotton wood so i'd be willing to spend the day hauling it away, but i wouldn't pay any $ for it.

SR


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## TreeLogic (Feb 12, 2013)

qbilder - Lots of elms aren't there? Anyway nice looking table dude. I'm impressed. It's funny how the common names of trees get thrown around like crazy. Look up Ironwood and you'll see what I mean. I have to agree with an earlier post, there's less confusion in using the Genus species. Here in Charleston, Chinese Elm refers to Ulmus parvifolia, which is also called Lacebark Elm, pretty much an ornamental with really cool looking mottled bark. We don't have Siberian elm here but from the pictures I've seen online, you're right, the bark looks pretty close to his original pics. 

Here's a pic of a bench I made for Mom. The boards were cut from an American Elm (Ulmus americana) and when I got into the large trunk wood I couldn't believe how NEON RED it was. Once it dried out, it lost some of that red. Anyway, hope I didn't step on any toes and enjoy the pic.


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## qbilder (Feb 12, 2013)

Nice bench! No toes stepped on here. I know all too well how many trees look a lot alike. We all have our own experiences.


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## ft. churchill (Feb 12, 2013)

I cut up quite a bit of siberian elm this fall (which also is called chinese elm around here). None of it has the darker colored heartwood that your logs have. The wood is a uniform tan color with very little color change between sapwood and heartwood.


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## TreeLogic (Feb 12, 2013)

For what it's worth, checked Wikipedia and it says that Siberian elm is mistakenly called Chinese elm all the time. Doesn't really look like they're saying it grows that big either. The American elm bark is shaggy on the older trees and looks more like pecan.

Is it possible that tree is Butternut, which has bark like that, and _is_ in the Walnut family?


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## excess650 (Feb 12, 2013)

TreeLogic said:


> For what it's worth, checked Wikipedia and it says that Siberian elm is mistakenly called Chinese elm all the time. Doesn't really look like they're saying it grows that big either. The American elm bark is shaggy on the older trees and looks more like pecan.
> 
> Is it possible that tree is Butternut, which has bark like that, and _is_ in the Walnut family?



It isn't butternut, and it doesn't look like my tulip poplars either.


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## qbilder (Feb 12, 2013)

ft. churchill said:


> I cut up quite a bit of siberian elm this fall (which also is called chinese elm around here). None of it has the darker colored heartwood that your logs have. The wood is a uniform tan color with very little color change between sapwood and heartwood.



Yeah we have some like that, too. Tough to tell it from cottonwood sometimes until you get close enough to see the feathers in the grain. We also have some that is very dark chocolate/charcoal almost like walnut. All of it is called Siberian elm though there's drastic differences. The table I made came from an elm that was growing in the foothills, next to what used to be a pond. It had been lying on the ground probably for decades. Campers had been cutting away at it for firewood. I thought it was cottonwood until I cut a piece & seen the interlocked end grain, and color of course. 

I cut one a few years ago that I would have sworn was walnut if I didn't see the leaves & the fact that it smelled like horse manure. They sprout like weeds & grow anywhere there's water. When out in the desert looking for new places to hunt, we always look for the line of elms. It's always a dead sign that water flows, at least at some point during the year.


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## Woody912 (Feb 13, 2013)

brookpederson said:


> Looks like cottonwood to me, big chunky bark. But one way to find out if it's Chinese elm is to smell it, they call it piss elm for a reason it smells like piss when you cut it. Anyways, if it's Chinese elm or cottonwood it's not worth a trip like that. I wouldn't travel 1/2 a mile for it



looks like cotton wood from here and I think the log is going to be very knotty. Split a small chunk with an axe, if it splits and splinters, more likely cottonwood. Axe bounces off, elm


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