# Pros and cons of hiring employees



## Bowhunter01 (Feb 7, 2011)

How many you all have employees on your payroll? I'm at the point where I'm going to need a guy or two full time during the spring summer and fall. I've been subcontracting my buddy, who has his own tree business (and licenses and insurance and tools) to do a lot of climbing for me the last couple years. He subs me out on his jobs to chip brush and haul logs. Its been working out pretty well, but its at the point where we either need to join forces or I'll need to hire someone to fill in when my buddy can't. 

I'm apprehensive about the costs of having an actual employee or two. Can someone help me get an idea of what kind of overhead I'd be looking at, such as worker's comp, insurance requirements, benefits I'd have to offer, training I'd have to provide, etc? What other considerations are there? 

I'm on the fence, whether I keep on at the same crazy speed as a one and a half man show, or hire some help and take on more work. I'm doing all the estimating, billing, purchasing, maintenance, etc, and I'm on every jobsite from start to finish. Six days a week from march to november is wearing me down. It would be good to have some help, but I don't like the idea of giving up control of the actual work. I know plenty of you have been in this same boat, help me out with some ideas. Thanks guys.


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 7, 2011)

In the January edition of TCI magazine there is an article about employee "leasing" . Does anyone have any experience with this? Maybe this is somthing that could help u Bowhunter. I know I am interested in hearing how/what others are doing.


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 7, 2011)

It is hard to find a good worker. In MN my wk comp rate is about 23%. It costs about 1.75 times what I pay the person for overhead. Pay 10/hr costs 17.50/hr. As a small employer I am not required to pay bennys. The worker that I have now is good but it is hard to find good workers that are willing to work for what u can afford to pay. I pay just under 15/hr for grunt work. I cannot afford to hire a full time climber. I sub that out at around 40/hr or climb myself.......when the bucket won't reach. Also... I have never had any luck with temps. They don't care about anything. Start off small. Don't try to hire out too much at once. I use adp to process my payroll. I would recommend finding a payroll comp. They do everything for u. U just call in hours and earnings...... about 75/month


----------



## JCONN (Feb 7, 2011)

As good as employees are they can be even more of a pain. Sometimes employees can create more head achs then they do good. If you want to test the waters with employees around me you can go to companies like labor ready and find workers. The nice thing about this is that you call they send a worker if they dont work you tell them to leave and they send another. Then they take care of the work comp and everything. If you find someone that works you can request that person whenever. Just an idea it will let you get a feel of all involved with employees but allows you not to have to set up all the work comp and insurance crap. I used to work for a guy who payed me payroll then I went on my own and did sub work for him. Two years later he got a bill for estimated payments of like 30 grand becuase they said he was trying to avoid paying. He had to come up with reciepts and invoices it was a huge pain.


----------



## ducaticorse (Feb 7, 2011)

Bowhunter01 said:


> How many you all have employees on your payroll? I'm at the point where I'm going to need a guy or two full time during the spring summer and fall. I've been subcontracting my buddy, who has his own tree business (and licenses and insurance and tools) to do a lot of climbing for me the last couple years. He subs me out on his jobs to chip brush and haul logs. Its been working out pretty well, but its at the point where we either need to join forces or I'll need to hire someone to fill in when my buddy can't.
> 
> I'm apprehensive about the costs of having an actual employee or two. Can someone help me get an idea of what kind of overhead I'd be looking at, such as worker's comp, insurance requirements, benefits I'd have to offer, training I'd have to provide, etc? What other considerations are there?
> 
> I'm on the fence, whether I keep on at the same crazy speed as a one and a half man show, or hire some help and take on more work. I'm doing all the estimating, billing, purchasing, maintenance, etc, and I'm on every jobsite from start to finish. Six days a week from march to november is wearing me down. It would be good to have some help, but I don't like the idea of giving up control of the actual work. I know plenty of you have been in this same boat, help me out with some ideas. Thanks guys.


 
Just had this conversation last night with a cpl members of this forum. Depending on what WC is in your state, you can figure anywhere between 1.5-2 times whatever your wage is to the employee to figure out what they're going to cost you. Simply put, it's ###### expensive


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 7, 2011)

I would not use a temp agency. There is a reason why workers in a temp agency are there.............they can not hold down a steady job. I have never had trouble finding a job there is always work for good workers.....................people in a temp agency are looking for a quick buck with no commitment. You need to find someone who wants the work and is willing to find it. Not someone who has been fired from everywhere else and now resorting to a temp agency for employment. I wouldn't be so opinionated but my experience with leasing companies has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Just my 2cents. A workcomp policy will be audited at the end of the policy period and you need to provide documentation of legit subs. If you have the proper docs an audit is easy................if you hire people that do not meet the requirments of a legit subs u can expect to pay the work comp on them


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 7, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> It is hard to find a good worker. In MN my wk comp rate is about 23%. It costs about 1.75 times what I pay the person for overhead. Pay 10/hr costs 17.50/hr. As a small employer I am not required to pay bennys. The worker that I have now is good but it is hard to find good workers that are willing to work for what u can afford to pay. I pay just under 15/hr for grunt work. I cannot afford to hire a full time climber. I sub that out at around 40/hr or climb myself.......when the bucket won't reach. Also... I have never had any luck with temps. They don't care about anything. Start off small. Don't try to hire out too much at once. I use adp to process my payroll. I would recommend finding a payroll comp. They do everything for u. U just call in hours and earnings...... about 75/month



Problem is here (in Canada).. we can not legally get around WC. Contract or employee.. you have to pay it either way. Only way around it is hiring contract, and the person has proof of WC payment. (they issue a certificate as evidence)
Payroll company is good idea.. unless you have somebody who does your books for you and is good at payroll as well.. then you may save a few dollars but not a whole lot.

Question was Pros and Cons..

Well vs what.. no workers at all vs employees.. or employees vs contract work?

If the later that can be a lot different depending upon which country or state/province you are working in..


----------



## ducaticorse (Feb 7, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> I would not use a temp agency. There is a reason why workers in a temp agency are there.............they can not hold down a steady job. I have never had trouble finding a job there is always work for good workers.....................people in a temp agency are looking for a quick buck with no commitment. You need to find someone who wants the work and is willing to find it. Not someone who has been fired from everywhere else and now resorting to a temp agency for employment. I wouldn't be so opinionated but my experience with leasing companies has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Just my 2cents. A workcomp policy will be audited at the end of the policy period and you need to provide documentation of legit subs. If you have the proper docs an audit is easy................if you hire people that do not meet the requirments of a legit subs u can expect to pay the work comp on them



Well the damn temp agencies around here pay minimum wage and no benefits. What else would one expect?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 7, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Well the damn temp agencies around here pay minimum wage and no benefits. What else would one expect?


 
:agree2:


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 7, 2011)

I am starting to wonder if anyone in my area actually runs there company truely "by the book". I am starting to think its not possible. When I start pushing numbers....dont look good. I have seen to many other companies bids over the years and there is NO WAY they are paying WC. Although there have been some cases where a bigger company that I am sure is legit is awful cheap to so i dont get it.....


----------



## ducaticorse (Feb 7, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I am starting to wonder if anyone in my area actually runs there company truely "by the book". I am starting to think its not possible. When I start pushing numbers....dont look good. I have seen to many other companies bids over the years and there is NO WAY they are paying WC. Although there have been some cases where a bigger company that I am sure is legit is awful cheap to so i dont get it.....


 
Some big companies bid jobs low just to keep equipment out, and employees paid. Lots of guys buy minimum WC coverage, and pay the help partial on the book, or completely off the book to beat end of year audits. 

And people ##### and Complain when some business owners seek to explore enforcement and stiff punishment for companies operating without WC, and not playing by the rules.. Can you blame them when it costs them TWICE as much to do business than the illegitimate guy bidding on the same job?


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 7, 2011)

Did I mention provide legit documentation for subs. If they need to have their own wk comp policy and u hire a sub without it. It is your own fault for the liability obtained


----------



## ducaticorse (Feb 7, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> Did I mention provide legit documentation for subs. If they need to have their own wk comp policy and u hire a sub without it. It is your own fault for the liability obtained


 
Yup. If you're 1099'ing anyone.


----------



## Toddppm (Feb 7, 2011)

All depends on where you want to go with your biz. You're gambling doing everything yourself. I know there's some guys on here making good money doing everything theirselves but all it takes is one minor accident and then who's going to pay your bills?
Workers comp is just another expense, I'm paying 12.5%, so what, that doesn't even account for payroll taxes, other insurance, fuel, admin, depreciation and every other little thing you should be billing for. 
We do alot of other work besides trees and separate each job hours and pay the rate for it. 
I've heard some large co's treat their guys as subs to avoid workers comp and have been doing it for years. Not sure how they do it but I guess they found a way and they work cheap as hell.
I have a couple guys that sub for me and I just go ahead and claim their $$ on my workers comp., not worth it not to.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Feb 7, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> I would not use a temp agency. There is a reason why workers in a temp agency are there.............they can not hold down a steady job. I have never had trouble finding a job there is always work for good workers.....................people in a temp agency are looking for a quick buck with no commitment. You need to find someone who wants the work and is willing to find it. Not someone who has been fired from everywhere else and now resorting to a temp agency for employment. I wouldn't be so opinionated but my experience with leasing companies has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Just my 2cents. A workcomp policy will be audited at the end of the policy period and you need to provide documentation of legit subs. If you have the proper docs an audit is easy................if you hire people that do not meet the requirments of a legit subs u can expect to pay the work comp on them



I agree with this. Ive had good luck 1 time out of probably 12-15 times. Ive ended up with some dooesys that cant even flag traffic....come in every morning and smell like a brewery..and it goes on. I also ended up with a guy that had CDLs, and was a damm good worker. I worked him the minimum time through the temp and hired him full time, that was almost 2 years ago.



ducaticorse said:


> Well the damn temp agencies around here pay minimum wage and no benefits. What else would one expect?


 
They pay minimum wage here, but if you want to pay your temp more you can. They just bill it to you., but most that Ive had isnt worth no more.


----------



## Toddppm (Feb 7, 2011)

I forgot 

Pros: 
I get most of my estimates done during the day, no weekends unless an emergency
Can take off whenever for the most part
If everything goes as planned I make more $$$$$$
Get to play with all kinds of trucks/equipment etc.

Cons:
Full time babysitter to employees
Have to keep selling work to keep going
If anything goes wrong I make less $$$$
I have to maintain all kinds of trucks/equipment


lots more just a quick run down


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 7, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> Did I mention provide legit documentation for subs. If they need to have their own wk comp policy and u hire a sub without it. It is your own fault for the liability obtained


 
Here you can hire a sub without wc.. but then you are on the hook to pay it.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 7, 2011)

Toddppm said:


> I forgot
> 
> Pros:
> I get most of my estimates done during the day, no weekends unless an emergency
> ...



Good summary..

There are actually a LOT more cons than pros IMHO.

The BIG pro is "If everything goes as planned I make more $$$$$$".
The smaller perks are "I get most of my estimates done during the day, no weekends unless an emergency" and "Can take off whenever for the most part".

But a lot more paperwork, expenses are higher. You NEED ALOT more work.. because NOW YOU GOTTA keep things moving all the time. If by youself maybe 2 or 3 days a week was ok.. but now not so.


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 7, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Some big companies bid jobs low just to keep equipment out, and employees paid.



I can say I've done this a time or two. It's beneficial to keep a good crew employed even if your margin for profit goes down. Just so long as I'm not "buying" the work. :cool2:


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 7, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Well the damn temp agencies around here pay minimum wage and no benefits. What else would one expect?


 
Most temp agencies have several classes of employees, and there are specialty temp services for specialty jobs. You can hire temp-drivers, temp-welders, temp-dentists, etc. 

Shop around!


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 7, 2011)

Here are the biggest "pros" and "cons" in my opinion:

Pro: employees free you to manage your business. This can mean growth, independence, and financial security.

Con: employees REQUIRE you to manage them. This may be a skill that you do not have, and you may end up doing all the work in addition to attempting to manage your business.
*************************************************************

Me: I can't manage people worth a hoot, and I am barely managing to get by.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Feb 7, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> I can say I've done this a time or two. It's beneficial to keep a good crew employed even if your margin for profit goes down. Just so long as I'm not "buying" the work. :cool2:


 
Yes sir. Good help is HARD to find. If youve got some good guys, you better work them cause if you dont, someone else will.


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 7, 2011)

I think to be alittle more specific.... A good climber,bucket op...crew leader...free's u up to do more and THAT person makes u $$$.Kinda. But that person OR you..needs help. Atleast I do. I need a guy on the ground who can use a saw safely and run ropes and I need ATLEAST one more guy to drag n chip. Soooo...I dont think the question here is really about whether or not to hire...its should I put people on the books or not. In my experience its not possible to run a tree service alone. I have actually tried it and its unsafe and completely unproductive. Few HO are ok with someone taking 2 days to do what should be done in a half a day.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 7, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Here are the biggest "pros" and "cons" in my opinion:
> 
> Pro: employees free you to manage your business. This can mean growth, independence, and financial security.
> 
> ...



:agree2:


----------



## Slvrmple72 (Feb 7, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I am starting to wonder if anyone in my area actually runs there company truely "by the book". I am starting to think its not possible. When I start pushing numbers....dont look good. I have seen to many other companies bids over the years and there is NO WAY they are paying WC. Although there have been some cases where a bigger company that I am sure is legit is awful cheap to so i dont get it.....



In a word: VOLUME

In two words: CASH DEAL


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

Slvrmple72 said:


> In a word: VOLUME
> 
> In two words: CASH DEAL


 
Likely hit the nail on the head with those two words.. (well three in total  )


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 8, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Just had this conversation last night with a cpl members of this forum. Depending on what WC is in your state, you can figure anywhere between 1.5-2 times whatever your wage is to the employee to figure out what they're going to cost you. Simply put, it's ###### expensive


 
Most places actual "payroll cost" is around the wage + 30%, if that is what you mean by 1.5 x the wage, places like Cali, where W/C is 50% or more  it will be stiffer. 

For for payroll cost you need to figure all those hidden "taxes" mandated my the government, Unemployment, W/C, Payroll tax...Then there is all the bookkeeping involved, withholding....

Many guys go to employment services to manage payroll, not a temp service. You can get their people, or find one yourself and put him on their payroll. Then you just have to send a timesheet off to the company to get the check cut. I know guys who keep people on these services at near minimum wage, to cover the W/C and UIC mandates, then bonus them under the table to be competitive, cover for OT and any real bonus. It saves a headache, and you do not have to have a W/C policy.

The trick is to read all the fine print to ssee if there are any exclusions to what they will cover. One buddy/client got hit hard when he found out after the accident that the seasonal worker was not supposed to operate power tools, and he had to cover cor stitches from a mild chainsaw accident.

The thing is that if you fear growing, you will never do it. All you will have is a job with you as your boss. You do not get rich with tree work, but you can make a comfortable living running a couple of crews.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 8, 2011)

komatsuvarna said:


> Yes sir. Good help is HARD to find. If youve got some good guys, you better work them cause if you dont, someone else will.


 
Many of my clients will get an ok worker, and hold on to them even though there is constant friction. only when you are constantly looking a new guy will you be able to find one that is a perfect fit. I call it "winnowing the chaff" or "panning for gold". During your peak operation time, budget extra payroll to have a temp on the job to search for the next great employee. If you find one better suited for your operation then those on the books, you can work one in as you work another out. "it's not that you're not good John, it's that your not good for me. Bob fits better on my team and I need to keep him." I have one buddy/client who farms these guys out to other companies until they find a good match.

many of the high volume, low price companies pay well for hard workers who show up regularly, no matter how much they kvetch and mess things up.


----------



## brookpederson (Feb 8, 2011)

I know this is going to sound stupid, but do you have any family that wants to work in the tree industry. In minn you don'have to pay unemployment or worker comp for family members. It's saved my dad allot of $ over the years and now I'm in the same boat as you!


----------



## lxt (Feb 8, 2011)

I think I brought up some of these points on the "regulation thread"??

It does seem as though its not possible to run a fully legit biz & I think this is why some want to regulate things??? you have to be smart with how you do things, hell just to be an LLC in my state costs you over $400 a year, no big deal...but then ad in all the other stuff, ISA certs, memberships, registration fees & many other operational expenses.

If you have equipment? compliance is the key!!! rolling down the road with bungee cords holding stuff down....tis a NO NO!!

the small biz owner who wants to legally hire is gonna lose money faster than he can make it....at first!! this is why most biz fold within the first few years!!

In my area, with all the "hacks"......you have to be business savy & smart in all facets of your biz..........sometimes I win & sometimes I lose by being a legitamate run biz................I mean hell....I cant work for what a couple of 24yr olds with a late model questionably legal truck with no insurance can!!

this is what you have to ask yourself? is it worth it? do I mind feast & famine? does my spouse have the ability to carry me through difficult times? is there enough obtainable work to justify employees? & on & on.

here I tell it like it is to potential customers, my competition is easily discredited!! yep they`re all insured............but, most are drug using, non certified, self taught, alcoholics with some form of criminal record!!! no matter how cheap Mr & Ms home owner are they dont want a thief or drug user working for them!!

In these times when our trade is being infiltrated by a bunch of layedoff, cashed in my 401k bought crap equip. know nothing about tree work types...........I have no quam about alerting the customer!!

pro`s........if you love this trade then do it right, no holds barred & go for it
con`s.......if this is too much for ya to handle..........then consider barber school.



LXT.................


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 8, 2011)

Slvrmple72 said:


> In a word: VOLUME
> 
> In two words: CASH DEAL


 I hear ya! problem is....all the volume and cash deals in the world wont help u when u have an injury (an employee) or the IRS decides it your turn for a closer look. I dont what law suit problems and I dont want them for any of my customers. If a guy cuts his leg bad or God for bid his hand is gone then there will be a sht storm of trouble. Plus I want to be able to hold on to good help and that means unemployment through the winter. Sometimes the whole thing seems overwhelming or atleast seems like the numbers wont work for me. I dont think I could have charged people more than what I have been. And I just didnt make all that much for myself in the end last year. Although I think that what JPS wrote seemed reassuring..wage plus 30% I can do! But I have been under the impression its atleast 50%. Some one earlier wrote ...10 an hour cost me 17.50 an hour...so if i wanna pay 15 n hour it will cost 26.25 ?! X3=78.75 an hour + all the other expensenses. And then I still gota make $ ?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

lxt said:


> I think I brought up some of these points on the "regulation thread"??.
> 
> It does seem as though its not possible to run a fully legit biz & I think this is why some want to regulate things??? you have to be smart with how you do things, hell just to be an LLC in my state costs you over $400 a year, no big deal...but then ad in all the other stuff, ISA certs, memberships, registration fees & many other operational expenses.




Ah yes.. that brings back memories.. and frankly there are a lot of reasons to not want regulation.. valid ones.. and some to want it. But those who are legit really do not care.. as it will not make a whole lot of difference in their operation. The ones impact the most are those who are not running legit operations. 

You see at least in Canada.. you license your vehicle over 10,000 lbs.. red flag #1 goes up.. you register an company.. red flag # 2.. get a tax number and payroll #.. gee a couple of more.. a workers comp #.. yet another.

So you are all over the gov't radar at this point.. so you gotta run more or less legit 100% of the way. At that point a reasonable legislation makes no impact at all.

So.. what it came down to in that thread was the guys who were most opposed to it were the ones lacking some of the above.. or maybe in some cases most of it..




lxt said:


> If you have equipment? compliance is the key!!! rolling down the road with bungee cords holding stuff down....tis a NO NO!!
> 
> the small biz owner who wants to legally hire is gonna lose money faster than he can make it....at first!! this is why most biz fold within the first few years!!.



Agreed!! Key is to keep out of debt as much as possible.. and roll with whatever comes your way.





lxt said:


> pro`s........if you love this trade then do it right, no holds barred & go for it
> con`s.......if this is too much for ya to handle..........then consider barber school.


 
Agreed!!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 8, 2011)

> *Family Members*
> Members of the employer's family may be considered employees, and they should be covered by workers' compensation in every instance where there is an employee/employer relationship for business related work.
> 
> Children, as well as spouses and related adults, should be covered. Family health
> ...



http://jfs.ohio.gov/ouc/uctax/rates.stm

The above link is the Ohio site for UI benefits and explains the shifting scale used for UI taxation. It looks like the first fiscal year in business you pay 3% of payroll for UI, then it is anywhere from 1-10%. I assume that the more you lay off employees, the more you pay into the fund. So if you are highly seasonal then you will be closer to the 10%. This is an assumption on my part, I did not read it too closely.


I looked around a little for actual costs of payroll tax, but could not find anything substantial. I think the employer pays around 10%, so fir a rough estimate;

05% ui
10% payroll
20% w/c
35% for "hidden" payroll costs.


----------



## mpatch (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I hear ya! problem is....all the volume and cash deals in the world wont help u when u have an injury (an employee) or the IRS decides it your turn for a closer look. I dont what law suit problems and I dont want them for any of my customers. If a guy cuts his leg bad or God for bid his hand is gone then there will be a sht storm of trouble. Plus I want to be able to hold on to good help and that means unemployment through the winter. Sometimes the whole thing seems overwhelming or atleast seems like the numbers wont work for me. I dont think I could have charged people more than what I have been. And I just didnt make all that much for myself in the end last year. Although I think that what JPS wrote seemed reassuring..wage plus 30% I can do! But I have been under the impression its atleast 50%. Some one earlier wrote ...10 an hour cost me 17.50 an hour...so if i wanna pay 15 n hour it will cost 26.25 ?! X3=78.75 an hour + all the other expensenses. And then I still gota make $ ?


 Dont forget that if you want to get and keep good empolyees you will have to offer some benefits such as paid holidays, vacation pay, health ins., paid training.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

mpatch said:


> Dont forget that if you want to get and keep good empolyees you will have to offer some benefits such as paid holidays, vacation pay, health ins., paid training.


 
In Canada.. some of this is law.. you have no choice. Holidays are mandated, as are vacation (4% of earnings -- 6% after 10 years). Training is mandated - but some of it you can do in house if you have people (yourself even) who has passed test to be trainer. I have taken some of the trainer courses (Aerial Lift Certification is one for example that I have). Health Insurance is gov't covered here, but employer has to pay gov't percentage of payroll. Then there is unemployment insurance (or as our gov't has renamed it employment insurance), gov't pension plan and payroll taxes, and of course our favorite (workers comp - but ours is not as bad as some parts of the U.S. - litigation has not gotten to us as bad here so claims are not the same - hence rates not as high).

You see.. this is why we get upset with the guys running under the radar and doing sideline work without following rules. They are not supporting society, they are not contributing in any way at all... and are taking work away from those who are contributing fairly. They are nothing but leaches who are living on society.. and should be treated as such. They want everything they can get for free.. and they do not contribute their share in return.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> 05% ui
> 10% payroll
> 20% w/c
> 35% for "hidden" payroll costs.



Lets assume the above to be accurate.. what about:
.5% statutary holidays
4% vacation - or maybe even 6%
.5% - just a guess for training - tailgate meetings, etc.
we have gov't pension plan - maxes out at around $1800 year per employee.. for get percentage to get there.. but it is always paid by mid year .. so percentage is high enough.
our health insurance is low.. about .04% or something like that..

Guys do not realize it all adds up..


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Lets assume the above to be accurate.. what about:
> .5% statutary holidays
> 4% vacation - or maybe even 6%
> .5% - just a guess for training - tailgate meetings, etc.
> ...


 
Dude....baby steps bro...Most people would love to offer employees lots of extras but many here are just trying to get the basics going. Paid time off and health insurance are not the norm in my neck of the woods. ....If u work , u get paid. If u don't work, u don't get paid. Tends to be how it goes here. In all the "trades" atleast. Of course there are exceptions but not to many. I even have a cousin who is a union pipe layer and its that way for him. he does get a rather high wage but thats it. His union has some 401k stuff and it might be possible to get Health coverage but its very expensive.....Its not a pretty picture around Cleveland Ohio.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> Dude....baby steps bro...Most people would love to offer employees lots of extras but many here are just trying to get the basics going. Paid time off and health insurance are not the norm in my neck of the woods. ....If u work , u get paid. If u don't work, u don't get paid. Tends to be how it goes here. In all the "trades" atleast. Of course there are exceptions but not to many. I even have a cousin who is a union pipe layer and its that way for him. he does get a rather high wage but thats it. His union has some 401k stuff and it might be possible to get Health coverage but its very expensive.....Its not a pretty picture around Cleveland Ohio.


 
Hey I hear you..

BUT.. in Canada.. which I realize is different.. if you put somebody on payroll it is ALL mandatory.. 

Which is why our things cost a little more than in the U.S..


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I hear ya! problem is....all the volume and cash deals in the world wont help u when u have an injury (an employee) or the IRS decides it your turn for a closer look. I dont what law suit problems and I dont want them for any of my customers. If a guy cuts his leg bad or God for bid his hand is gone then there will be a sht storm of trouble. Plus I want to be able to hold on to good help and that means unemployment through the winter. Sometimes the whole thing seems overwhelming or atleast seems like the numbers wont work for me. I dont think I could have charged people more than what I have been. And I just didnt make all that much for myself in the end last year. Although I think that what JPS wrote seemed reassuring..wage plus 30% I can do! But I have been under the impression its atleast 50%. Some one earlier wrote ...10 an hour cost me 17.50 an hour...so if i wanna pay 15 n hour it will cost 26.25 ?! X3=78.75 an hour + all the other expensenses. And then I still gota make $ ?


 
I think wages + 30% is fairly accurate.. I added some numbers for our area.. but our WC is lower than what JPS posted.. so in end think it is likely same with extras. I don't want to post our WC.. folks may get jealous.. especially when I hear 50% in some parts.


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 8, 2011)

Paid holidays and vaction time is mandatory in Canada? really?


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 8, 2011)

lxt said:


> I think I brought up some of these points on the "regulation thread"??
> 
> It does seem as though its not possible to run a fully legit biz
> LXT.................



I condensed your post, only because I think you are not comparing apples to apples. We are fully legit and do very well. Every year is better than the last. Like you say, "Ah! What a rush!"
Jeff


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 8, 2011)

lxt said:


> I think I brought up some of these points on the "regulation thread"??
> pro`s........if you love this trade then do it right, no holds barred & go for it
> con`s.......if this is too much for ya to handle..........then consider barber school.
> LXT.................


 
I think you said it here!
Jeff


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> Paid holidays and vaction time is mandatory in Canada? really?


 
Yep, if part time or full time employee. If contract then no.


----------



## NCTREE (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Lets assume the above to be accurate.. what about:
> .5% statutary holidays
> 4% vacation - or maybe even 6%
> .5% - just a guess for training - tailgate meetings, etc.
> ...


 
So if im understanding this right going on JPS numbers and what you are saying as far as health insurance and other benefits an employer is looking at spending roughly 50% of every dollar paid to an employee in labor costs. So saying that then if im paying $15 an hour then it's costing me $22.50 an hour.


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 8, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> ...
> 
> Although I think that what JPS wrote seemed reassuring..wage plus 30% I can do! But I have been under the impression its atleast 50%. Some one earlier wrote ...10 an hour cost me 17.50 an hour...so if i wanna pay 15 n hour it will cost 26.25 ?! X3=78.75 an hour + all the other expensenses. And then I still gota make $ ?


 
A few years ago I was paying just a few points less than 100% of payroll for tree services! If my tree climber got $200 for the day, so did the insurance company.

If you go legit, you need to read my posts about how to keep workers comp trimmed to a minimum. _When it comes to workers comp. insurance, "topping" is a highly desirable practice._


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 8, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> A few years ago I was paying just a few points less than 100% of payroll for tree services! If my tree climber got $200 for the day, so did the insurance company.
> 
> If you go legit, you need to read my posts about how to keep workers comp trimmed to a minimum. _When it comes to workers comp. insurance, "topping" is a highly desirable practice._


 
I hope you can explain, because this makes no sense.
Jeff


----------



## NCTREE (Feb 8, 2011)

yes please explain im cunfused:monkey:


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 8, 2011)

What is there to understand? When the WC insurance audit came around every year, the invoice for insuring anyone in "Tree pruning", code 0106 was equal to the wages I paid.

$20,000 in tree wages paid= (almost) $20,000 in worker's compensation insurance bill.

Is that clear enough?


...or was my comment about topping the WC expense confusing? I was attempting to use tree trimming jargon for a despised practice as a suggested activity to do to anyone's insurance bill. I also suggested that you use the search function to find my posts explaining how this might be accomplished. D'ye unnerstan yet?


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 8, 2011)

Let me add that it is damned hard to be competitive when your wage expenss is twice as high as your competitors.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 8, 2011)

OK, Now I get it it. How about translating that to California with a 50% WC? Now what?
:msp_rolleyes:
Jeff


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 8, 2011)

In California, if your ground guys are dragging brush and blowing and raking on a big pruning or removal job, you will pay 50% WC on the groundies because they are on a job that that climbers are on. If you are doing a job with 400 Elderica pine's at 7 feet for structure prune, everyone is around 14%.
Jeff


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 8, 2011)

There doesn't seem to be any distinction in Mo. about whether climbing trees or not. We kept all our groundies in "Park-NOC", which came in at a much lower rate. Quite frankly, I suspect that a really detailed investigation might have put our entire crew into "tree trimming".

If I was paying 50% anytime there was a climber present, I think I wouldn't do any brush cleanup until he was gone.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 8, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> There doesn't seem to be any distinction in Mo. about whether climbing trees or not. We kept all our groundies in "Park-NOC", which came in at a much lower rate. Quite frankly, I suspect that a really detailed investigation might have put our entire crew into "tree trimming".
> 
> If I was paying 50% anytime there was a climber present, I think I wouldn't do any brush cleanup until he was gone.


 
It must be nice living in the Boonies with no reg's!
Jeff


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 8, 2011)

brookpederson said:


> I know this is going to sound stupid, but do you have any family that wants to work in the tree industry.


 
Personally I would not hire family or friends. Those are two things I would stray from..........However, Father/son relationships are the exception to the rule. Meaning the business gets passed on. 
Partners, Brothers/Sisters, Spouses, Children. If you like to bicker try it out. I have never seen it effective in the long haul. A business needs to have an absolute monarchy to succeed. Hiring family/friends limits this. 

Earlier I said my cost rate for employing someone is 1.75 x wage paid. It is not quite this high. But honestly, I like to make money, copious amounts of it, and if I bid them in at this rate, that is what happens............ You start making money; both on your employees, and on yourself, and that is when you will see the benefit of having an employee. :biggrin: never, never, never give up. You can do it!


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 9, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> Personally I would not hire family or friends. Those are two things I would stray from..........However, Father/son relationships are the exception to the rule. Meaning the business gets passed on.
> Partners, Brothers/Sisters, Spouses, Children. If you like to bicker try it out.



I agree :agree2:

My sons work with me, but not all the time.. would love it if they did. My spouse works with me, but in office.. answering phone booking appointments, doing bills/accounting, etc. Works ok.


----------



## lxt (Feb 9, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I condensed your post, only because I think you are not comparing apples to apples. We are fully legit and do very well. Every year is better than the last. Like you say, "Ah! What a rush!"
> Jeff


 

whatsup jeff? I shoulda explained that a lil better I guess.....when I go out & bid work & the homeowner/customer is looking for a "low cost provider" (thats puttin it nice).........they are not hesitant about showing numbers, I read some of those numbers (bids) & know there is no way some of those companies are running legal, no way at all...!

Its those jobs that I walk away from thinking....whats going on here? even in high end areas these type of bids are welcomed, its kinda frustrating at times for a legit company.........especially in my area within the next month or so... the hungry will be out & the low bids will fly!!! I just hold steady knowing Iwill see the competition working as im bidding...............but then Ill be busy enough, currently I have a good work load.......which is a surprise!!

you take care Jeff!!


LXT..........


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2011)

lxt said:


> whatsup jeff? I shoulda explained that a lil better I guess.....when I go out & bid work & the homeowner/customer is looking for a "low cost provider" (thats puttin it nice).........they are not hesitant about showing numbers, I read some of those numbers (bids) & know there is no way some of those companies are running legal, no way at all...!
> 
> Its those jobs that I walk away from thinking....whats going on here? even in high end areas these type of bids are welcomed, its kinda frustrating at times for a legit company.........especially in my area within the next month or so... the hungry will be out & the low bids will fly!!! I just hold steady knowing Iwill see the competition working as im bidding...............but then Ill be busy enough, currently I have a good work load.......which is a surprise!!
> 
> ...




I get it now.
Jeff


----------



## lxt (Feb 9, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> What is there to understand? When the WC insurance audit came around every year, the invoice for insuring anyone in "Tree pruning", code 0106 was equal to the wages I paid.
> 
> $20,000 in tree wages paid= (almost) $20,000 in worker's compensation insurance bill.
> 
> ...


 
WOW......here the Audit is quarterly, we pay based on payroll too its like $30.00 per hundred........so 30% some where around there?

but to pay an equal amount as what your payroll is......jeesh!! that right there is why some fly under the radar......who just starting out could/would subject themselves to that?

whats sad is.......right now I am in the process of trying to obtain vendor qualification for a local electric utility.................what fun it is!!!!! Im not even interested in the line clearance aspects, I am interested in the pre-planning, assessing, consulting, data & mapping contract, but all vendors must have the same limit coverage.

I think this is crazy............But, whatever! the limits they are requesting are not for the faint at heart & the initial upfront costs....well lets just say...it would appear they or someone doesnt want the lil guy in the reindeer games!

this is just to qualify I might ad, no gaurantee of even getting a contract!! So... Ill have to think about if it is worth it or not, Ill be competing against Davey resource group & ACRT...................BTW......cost wise for what they want will be in upwards of $10,000.00 a month!!!!




LXT...............


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 9, 2011)

> pro`s........if you love this trade then do it right, no holds barred & go for it
> con`s.......if this is too much for ya to handle..........then consider barber school


.

:agree2: As interesting as this thread is I guess the only thing to do is just do it. I am gonna make an appt with an acct that was recommended to me by a couple of guys I know . They both said she knows her stuff. One things for sure...its not gonna get done right getting info from people all over the USA and Canada! LOL, plus my wife said this is the last year she is doing the taxes...she is smart but they are getting alittle over her head. Thx for all the help.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 9, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Lets assume the above to be accurate.. what about:
> .5% statutary holidays
> 4% vacation - or maybe even 6%
> .5% - just a guess for training - tailgate meetings, etc.
> ...



That would show up in payroll, holiday pay shows up in the check. I think there is a way to code things so that it does not show up in IC & W/C numbers though, but then i am not an accountant. I recall hearing some things.


----------



## treemandan (Feb 9, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I am starting to wonder if anyone in my area actually runs there company truely "by the book". I am starting to think its not possible. When I start pushing numbers....dont look good. I have seen to many other companies bids over the years and there is NO WAY they are paying WC. Although there have been some cases where a bigger company that I am sure is legit is awful cheap to so i dont get it.....


 
Starting to wonder?

This fine proud ccountry was erected by the broken backs of slaves, refugees and unfair wages. And we had to fight to the death all the way to where we are now. WHY? There was no other way to get the book math to add up. You can not pay a man a fair wage to do the proletarian work and make a profit at the same time. Don't you think if it were possible it would have been done by now?
I just want everbody to know that money is not the main reason I do the thing with the trees. It surely is more for glory.


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 9, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Starting to wonder?


 
LOL...care to elaborate?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 9, 2011)

treemandan said:


> I just want everbody to know that money is not the main reason I do the thing with the trees. It surely is more for glory.



Well not exactly sure what you own for equipment, or what your overhead costs are 

But money has to become a factor at some point.. or you will not be doing it forever (unless you happened to get a nice inheritance or win a lottery).


----------



## Bowhunter01 (Feb 9, 2011)

Holy smokes! Wow, I hurt my eyes reading all the replies. I'm kind of concerned, sounds like WC is a major consideration. I would probably need to double my sales, but I think I can do that. 

What about training? As an employer, what would I be required to provide as far as chainsaw saftey, first aid, etc? 

Does TCIA or ISA have mentoring available for its members? I really wish I could sit down with someone who was not in direct competition with me and ask a bunch of questions. I can keep going like I am, but I'm worried about what I'll be doing ten years from now when I'm all old and crippled up.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 9, 2011)

Bowhunter01 said:


> Holy smokes! Wow, I hurt my eyes reading all the replies. I'm kind of concerned, sounds like WC is a major consideration. I would probably need to double my sales, but I think I can do that.
> 
> What about training? As an employer, what would I be required to provide as far as chainsaw saftey, first aid, etc?
> 
> Does TCIA or ISA have mentoring available for its members? I really wish I could sit down with someone who was not in direct competition with me and ask a bunch of questions. I can keep going like I am, but I'm worried about what I'll be doing ten years from now when I'm all old and crippled up.



Well WC sounds like it can be significant in some areas.

TCIA has some info for sure.. 

Sitting down and chatting is good.. but works best if somebody close to you (but then you get into your competition issue).. as anybody farther away may have somewhat different items to worry about.

But worth sitting down with anybody who is willing.. personally I would do it.. but fear my area is so different that it would really be only a 50% value to you (as we are in different countries).


----------



## alpineman (Feb 9, 2011)

For those of you who run more than one crew, do you think there was a time when you got past the "wall" and started making more money. Seems like there is a breaking point where you finally start doing enough production that you make more money. A friend in the biz told me the other day that he made good money at $200K, then actually less at $400K(due to the need for more employees and equipment) and then started making bank at $600k in gross sales.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2011)

.


Bowhunter01 said:


> Holy smokes! Wow, I hurt my eyes reading all the replies. I'm kind of concerned, sounds like WC is a major consideration. I would probably need to double my sales, but I think I can do that.
> 
> What about training? As an employer, what would I be required to provide as far as chainsaw saftey, first aid, etc?
> 
> Does TCIA or ISA have mentoring available for its members? I really wish I could sit down with someone who was not in direct competition with me and ask a bunch of questions. I can keep going like I am, but I'm worried about what I'll be doing ten years from now when I'm all old and crippled up.


 
Ask away, 

Jeff


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2011)

alpineman said:


> For those of you who run more than one crew, do you think there was a time when you got past the "wall" and started making more money. Seems like there is a breaking point where you finally start doing enough production that you make more money. A friend in the biz told me the other day that he made good money at $200K, then actually less at $400K(due to the need for more employees and equipment) and then started making bank at $600k in gross sales.


 
I run three crews. I could use another 5 man crew. Once you pass the 1.5 million it takes on a new life'
Jeff


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 9, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I run three crews. I could use another 5 man crew. Once you pass the 1.5 million it takes on a new life'
> Jeff


 
But thats in California dollars.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> But thats in California dollars.


 
Ah, How true. 50% WC and just the cost of living. 
Jeff


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 9, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Ah, How true. 50% WC and just the cost of living.
> Jeff


 
Well, it's impressive non the less.


----------



## mpatch (Feb 9, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I run three crews. I could use another 5 man crew. Once you pass the 1.5 million it takes on a new life'
> Jeff



Not sure if you can/will be able to answer this but what is your wage percentage or average man hour rate for a year?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 10, 2011)

alpineman said:


> For those of you who run more than one crew, do you think there was a time when you got past the "wall" and started making more money. Seems like there is a breaking point where you finally start doing enough production that you make more money. A friend in the biz told me the other day that he made good money at $200K, then actually less at $400K(due to the need for more employees and equipment) and then started making bank at $600k in gross sales.


 
That is true in just about any business. 

Start in your home.. with one truck in your yard.
Some maybe not paying all the taxes and WC, etc at this point. Maybe have residential phone line, share internet with home etc.
Then maybe hire a person - maybe part time.. maybe still not paying all.
Then maybe full time person.. and maybe start paying some WC, etc.
Then maybe a 2nd truck.
Then maybe move to another locations for bigger building.. get phone, internet, insurance, electricial.. now cost go up..
This is typically 1st point where cost go up and now need to get more work to make as much money as before.. 
Then an expansion when outgrow 1st location can make another bump..
Once you reach a point where adding a 3rd, 4th vehicle, or a few other guys does not mean expansion in other areas then you are now at a point where you can make some money.


----------



## NCTREE (Feb 10, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Starting to wonder?
> 
> This fine proud ccountry was erected by the broken backs of slaves, refugees and unfair wages. And we had to fight to the death all the way to where we are now. WHY? There was no other way to get the book math to add up. You can not pay a man a fair wage to do the proletarian work and make a profit at the same time. Don't you think if it were possible it would have been done by now?
> I just want everbody to know that money is not the main reason I do the thing with the trees. It surely is more for glory.


 
Well if the gov. and insuance companies would stop sticking their hands in our pockets freely then maybe it be a little easier for the small businees man to survive. Obama should be working on reforming small business tax laws and insurance price gouging instead of health care and credit card industry.


----------



## Bowhunter01 (Feb 10, 2011)

I haven't slept too well for the last few nights. I keep thinking over and over "Workers Comp, 1.5 Times Payroll, Overhead, Marketing...did I plug the block heaters in...Workers Comp, do I hear water running somewhere..". Ugh. I'm wearing myself out, before I even get out of bed! 

I'm stepping it up this year. I'm gonna make something happen. Got an appointment with my accountant tonight. If I can double or triple my sales, then I'll just have to deal with the bigger overhead costs. 

Juggling all the different responsibilities of a small one man type business is not easy. I'm just gonna hit it hard and hire some help, including a couple hours a week book keeper.


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 10, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> That would show up in payroll, holiday pay shows up in the check. I think there is a way to code things so that it does not show up in IC & W/C numbers though, but then i am not an accountant. I recall hearing some things.


 
It's easy.

Your accounting has to be set up with work class codes for each employee, each hour they work. Let's see...Employee#1: 16 hrs tree time, 24 hrs park-noc, 10hrs of "sales". Cut him a check, workers comp accounting is done.

It's a little more work, but look at all the money you save while being completely legit.


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 10, 2011)

Bowhunter01 said:


> I haven't slept too well for the last few nights. I keep thinking over and over "Workers Comp, 1.5 Times Payroll, Overhead, Marketing...did I plug the block heaters in...Workers Comp, do I hear water running somewhere..". Ugh. I'm wearing myself out, before I even get out of bed!
> 
> I'm stepping it up this year. I'm gonna make something happen. Got an appointment with my accountant tonight. If I can double or triple my sales, then I'll just have to deal with the bigger overhead costs.
> 
> Juggling all the different responsibilities of a small one man type business is not easy. I'm just gonna hit it hard and hire some help, including a couple hours a week book keeper.


 
I hear _AMBITION_ running in the background. Good for you. 

It sounds like you need to learn how to use that ambition to power your working hours for a better life off the clock, not as a gnawing pain that troubles you around the clock.


----------



## lxt (Feb 10, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> It's easy.
> 
> Your accounting has to be set up with work class codes for each employee, each hour they work. Let's see...Employee#1: 16 hrs tree time, 24 hrs park-noc, 10hrs of "sales". Cut him a check, workers comp accounting is done.
> 
> It's a little more work, but look at all the money you save while being completely legit.


 

see here that dont work! If my guy goes up in a tree on monday & tuesday I have him doing a landscape job............doesnt matter! he is still considered tree care, here alot of guys get away with improper WC, a landscape company pays around $12-$15 a hundred....while a tree care service pays $26-$32 a hundred........This is how some will get by bidding cheaper!

I alert all customers to make sure their contractor has the right insurance!!! what does his insurance specifically cover? some of these guys have WC but their code is for that of a grass cutter/landscaper..........but they are doing tree work & landing municipal contracts!!! the one contractor was questioned about his insurance the twp didnt want to pay him cause he was not properly insured through WC................they ended up paying him!!! it was a verification error on the twp, they asked for WC & got it........they just didnt specify!!



LXT................


----------



## Bowhunter01 (Feb 10, 2011)

Yeah, I'm happy with the way things have gone up til now, but I need to either DO this, or do something else. I'm coming to the end of my 6th year in business, and it has grown tremendously, but I'm at the end of what I can accomplish on my own as one physical person. So either I step up or step down. 

I think I'm mostly through with the worrying, now I'm about ready to start drumming up some more calls. A lot more. Just been kind of wondering what the next ten or twenty years would bring, and if I'd be able to retire someday to a small farm and hunt and fish a lot, or just simply run out of physical ability and be forced to bag groceries. I better do my best to build up a company I can sell out of someday. 

I go through these spells, usually for about a week at a time, where I wake up wide awake at about 2:30 thinking about something. I hate it. If I fall back to sleep, I'm dead tired and can hardly get up even at 6 or 7. A lot of times I just stay up and hit the desk for a while before its time to head out. Sucks when its 5 or 6 days in a row though, like today.


----------



## Toddppm (Feb 10, 2011)

Hah, I come up with some crazy ideas in the middle of the night or remember something vitally important to a job or scheduling etc. Amazingly I usually remeber when I wake up, probably because it takes a while to go back to sleep.

Don't get into snowplowing if you don't like waking up at odd hours all the time either

You have the right idea, build your business into something valuable to somebody else in the future, not just to you right now. Got to separate yourself from the actual work. I hate these dumb sayings because they sure as #### don't hold water all the time but :

Work smarter not harder
You have to work on the business not in it
blah, blah, blah:msp_flapper:


----------



## treemandan (Feb 10, 2011)

Everything and everybody goes into hysterics and high rate when you put two words; Tree work. See, these two words are normally non-offensive when not used in conjucture. You can readliy admit to trees, having them, knowing them, being around them. And of course the word work is commonly used and under everyday circumstance not to much of a scary thing. 
Tree work has been around long enough for the ins companies to figure out what is going on.

And not only do these words effect the insurance companies but also the people you hire. Ha ha, that's more real math though.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 10, 2011)

You need to run it as a business, not a job.

For W/C in WI you cannot change class codes for an employee's work day. I know of one company wh still does it, but it is suposedly incorrect with current regulations.

I am blessed with an agent who is a WAA/ISA memeber and has taken on an activist position for his tre care policy holders. Our cost has decreased to around 14% from 22% a few years ago, and he is trying to get the codes changed so that once areal work is completed the employees can be carried under a standard L/S code for cleanup.

Anyone in WI or the surrounding states should at least talk to Eric Petersen at Petersen & Associates. 

BTW the WAA Day Of Service will be at Wood's National Cemetery this year, on the VA Grounds in MKE. Eric is our pointman for the DoS.

Can anyone come up here in March?

Date: Wednesday, March 9th, 2011
Time: 7:30am - 4:00pm


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 10, 2011)

It's hard for me to believe that the actual laws concerning WC vary so much from state to state. There are obviously different classes of work, and an audit typically does not look at which employee worked which class of work, nor do they evaluate what time or date they do the work. Spot checking may occur, but only to verify accuracy of records, in my experience.

What the auditor asks for is payroll totals. How much $$ did you pay in each class of employee. That is how the premium is based, and that is what they are there to look at.

I have a demolition contractor that occasionally do work for (when he can't rip a tree out with his excavator!). He does the same thing with employees according to whether it is ground level demolition, or work on a 2nd (or higher) floor. Apparently, falls are pretty common, and the rates go up precipitously.


----------



## lxt (Feb 10, 2011)

pdqdl, its not so much about classes of work or how the WC rate/code pertains to an employee............[B*]Its about how your business is classified, atleast in PA!!!!*[/B]

As soon as I call my self a tree service & register as such I cant say.....whoa tuesday my guy was a shrub installer under lanscape code xxxx, would not fly here!

what one landscaper told me was to re-register as a landscape company but include tree care as being done occasionally.........then my WC rate drops considerably.............however... pray you never have an accident by doing it this way!!

LXT...............


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2011)

In California, if your groundie is dragging brush and raking on a tree job, he is 50% same as the climber. If the trees are under 14 feet, it is a landscape WC and you need that license. You can not split it by hours. 
Jeff


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 10, 2011)

I spit my employees hrs wc rate for trees 25% groundies 15%.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> I spit my employees hrs wc rate for trees 25% groundies 15%.


 
Must be nice to have such relaxed reg's. What would happen if your climber is 40 feet up and drops a round on the groundie? The climber and the groundie are the same WC on that job. Split all you want, not here.
Jeff


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 10, 2011)

You make a good point. But everyone is considered on tree hrs until everything is on the ground. They tell me its too hard to keep track of. I tell them to take the extra 10% out of their check; that gets their attention and their time cards in line.

I would recommend talking to your agent or acutal ins company before doing this. I told them my situation and this is what they recommended.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2011)

Sounds good on paper but here you can not seperate the time on the same job.
Jeff

I am doing a job with 246 chinese elms, all structure prune and under 14 feet, landscape hours. Same job has 88 palms at 30 feet or more, tree hours. I do them on different days and can break it down that way but not break it down when the debris is on the ground to switch to landscape.
Jeff


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 10, 2011)

What is your ground rate.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> What is your ground rate.


 
Around 14%. But you need that license and cannot break it down on a daily basis. The job is the job. If you got trees at tree rate done by 11am., you can not switch to landscape rate. Just the way it is. We have all the license's but use them accordingly. Being TCIA Accredited, ( only 1 of 4 in So-Cal), we know what legit is.
Jeff , CTSP #519


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 10, 2011)

Its no wonder why the economy is the way it is. That makes no sense. But then again ur in cali. Not much makes sense over there.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2011)

Good-night, jg, sleep well!
Jeff :msp_sleep:


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Feb 11, 2011)

They are a gamble and they are insurance. The only thing harder than staff are no staff.

Staff are hard but not as hard as trying to safely and productively make a living doing trees by yourself for 30 years.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> If the trees are under 14 feet, it is a landscape WC and you need that license. You can not split it by hours.
> Jeff



Ouch yours hurts.. but if all are playing by same rules then ok.. it is the guys who do not pay WC that make it hard to compete. Still painful at end of day to see that money go out the door ! Must make some of your jobs pretty high in dollar value.

And 14 feet.. is that total tree height.. didn't know you had trees that short 

Realistically.. anything that short would be some pruning work.. or it is a shrub.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 11, 2011)

We have several large developments with hundreds and hundreds of trees. They think they are saving money by having us do trees over 14 feet, and the landscapers legally can work any tree under 14 feet. What sucks is as the trees mature, we end up with hacked trees to deal with. 
Jeff


----------



## TreeAce (Feb 11, 2011)

Hey Jeff...isnt it 4:30 am in CA right now? Thats freakn early to be up and on AS.


----------



## lxt (Feb 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> In California, if your groundie is dragging brush and raking on a tree job, he is 50% same as the climber. If the trees are under 14 feet, it is a landscape WC and you need that license. You can not split it by hours.
> Jeff


 

Pretty much the same way here, as soon as you go airborne above a certain height its tree W/C.............however, it depends on how your Biz is registered & I was told to figure averages...........in other words what % of your biz is tree work & what % is Landscape...........& then the Insurance agent will determine class code!



LXT............


----------



## Climb020 (Feb 11, 2011)

Would seem like a big pain to sit there and figure out hours for both tree and ground work. Guess it would really add up with a bunch of guys depending on ur WC rate. But as a sub. and only having to worry about carrying my own and my rate is only 17-18% it wouldn't be worth it for those few extra dollars an hour on shrub, brush and clearing jobs.


----------



## lxt (Feb 11, 2011)

020, thats a good rate you have! Im in the middle of a lil debate here with a utility....they want my wc certificate & I told them no problem....But it would not pertain to the contract I am bidding.

I told them the planning/inspector contract would fall under a different classification, im not paying WC based on Line clearance work.....I will be providing them the policy for "consulting" work...whatever that code is?

funny thing is they didnt see the big deal untill I told them: "do you want me to charge you based on the line clearance rate or the unknown classification rate?; which im sure will be less than half" when I said I was going to pass the savings off to them...........then it was.....ohh, i see...yeah whatever you said! LOL


so really it all depends on what you pay as to determine your bid rate, thats what sucks here......mr. general contractor/framing construction has comp at a rate of around $14 per $100.............so he bids lower than me, gets the job, the certificate doesnt say what he`s insured to do, its just Valid & thats all that matters....................untill someone gets hurt!



LXT...............


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> We have several large developments with hundreds and hundreds of trees. They think they are saving money by having us do trees over 14 feet, and the landscapers legally can work any tree under 14 feet. What sucks is as the trees mature, we end up with hacked trees to deal with.
> Jeff


 
Understood..

Now one might think that a business proposal might be made to some of them.. suggesting that if you did them all (assuming you want to), and could 
a) have proper work done on younger trees so not a hack job
b) have nicer looking landscape/job
c) potentially save money when they are larger and not need to attempt to restore issues caused by earlier work


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 11, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> Hey Jeff...isnt it 4:30 am in CA right now? Thats freakn early to be up and on AS.


 
Actually, 30 minutes late. I am up at 4am. Out the door by 5:30am. 
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 11, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Understood..
> 
> Now one might think that a business proposal might be made to some of them.. suggesting that if you did them all (assuming you want to), and could
> a) have proper work done on younger trees so not a hack job
> ...


 
The majority do have us take care of all their trees, it's just some don't and won't.
Jeff


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> The majority do have us take care of all their trees, it's just some don't and won't.
> Jeff


 
Ah ok.. well you will always get that I guess.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Actually, 30 minutes late. I am up at 4am. Out the door by 5:30am.
> Jeff :msp_biggrin:


 
Well that is summer time hours 

This time of year.. not likely up here 5:30am still pretty dark here.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 12, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Well that is summer time hours
> 
> This time of year.. not likely up here 5:30am still pretty dark here.


 
This will explain it all to you guy's!!!
Jeff :msp_flapper:http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=153636


----------



## sgreanbeans (Feb 12, 2011)

Con- training a guy to your likings, then the Big O offers a job to them, more money, benefits and a foreman seat right of the bat! Cant compete with that! The GF I think keeps tabs on who I have for a while, then offers it up after I have him trained! Once I can offer that, gunna go steal my guys back from him! Mad and happy at the same time, mad I lost them (with my blessin, they went, cant hold a kid back)happy that the guys I have trained are that valuable.


----------



## tree MDS (Feb 12, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Con- training a guy to your likings, then the Big O offers a job to them, more money, benefits and a foreman seat right of the bat! Cant compete with that! The GF I think keeps tabs on who I have for a while, then offers it up after I have him trained! Once I can offer that, gunna go steal my guys back from him! Mad and happy at the same time, mad I lost them (with my blessin, they went, cant hold a kid back)happy that the guys I have trained are that valuable.


 
That still sucks though. Sorry to hear about that.

I can't understand the desire to do utility work. Residential is so much cooler. I understand the steady work and all that.. but still, powerlines suck the big one! What, did WT knock up his little princess, or he just wanted more money to play with his toys? lol.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 12, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> That still sucks though. Sorry to hear about that.
> 
> I can't understand the desire to do utility work. Residential is so much cooler. I understand the steady work and all that.. but still, powerlines suck the big one! What, did WT knock up his little princess, or he just wanted more money to play with his toys? lol.


 
I can't imagine doing residential or utility work. Maybe with a small crew it would be ok.
Jeff :msp_smile:


----------



## tree MDS (Feb 12, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I can't imagine doing residential or utility work. Maybe with a small crew it would be ok.
> Jeff :msp_smile:


 
I'm not quite certain of the type of work you and your guys do Jeff. No real exp. with this "commmercial" work. What is it all condo's and businesses and such?


----------



## treemandan (Feb 12, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Con- training a guy to your likings, then the Big O offers a job to them, more money, benefits and a foreman seat right of the bat! Cant compete with that! The GF I think keeps tabs on who I have for a while, then offers it up after I have him trained! Once I can offer that, gunna go steal my guys back from him! Mad and happy at the same time, mad I lost them (with my blessin, they went, cant hold a kid back)happy that the guys I have trained are that valuable.


 
That's an oldy but a goody. But nobody ever stole my employees, they quit on their own!

I think this one guy did it to me though and I am sure other comapny owners know how to recruit.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 12, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> I'm not quite certain of the type of work you and your guys do Jeff. No real exp. with this "commmercial" work. What is it all condo's and businesses and such?
> 
> This is a better way to explain it.
> 
> ...


----------



## tree MDS (Feb 12, 2011)

Nice site and pics Jeffers. Thanks, that does explain it better. Nice nitch if you can get there I'm sure!

What's up with the guy climbing that Euc (I assume its a Euc) with the big Stihl, that bar is just a wee bit overkill, no?


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 12, 2011)

The LA guys are different than the San Diego guy's.
Jeff :msp_wink:


----------



## treemandan (Feb 12, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> tree MDS said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not quite certain of the type of work you and your guys do Jeff. No real exp. with this "commmercial" work. What is it all condo's and businesses and such?
> ...


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 12, 2011)

The owner of this company is the best owner I have ever met in 33 years in the biz. I left a cushy city job as a 'tree trimmer' that I would be retiring from by now. I was a contract climber from '92 to '01. Started having babies (mom's fault) and met Rick. I had my own 'dealie-o' when I lived in Julian, Ca. Worst thing is having that stress. I just want a good place to hang my hat and make my boss money and be happy at home.
Jeff :msp_smile:


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I just want a good place to hang my hat and make my boss money and be happy at home.


 
I have always found myself in political situations where I am compelled to speak my mind. I usually end up canned. Last place I was a grounds manager for a high-end resort. One day the assistant head engineer badmouthed my guys one to many times and I told him to F/O....Technically we were collateral positions in the organization....


----------



## tree MDS (Feb 13, 2011)

I am just waiting for the boss man to come around.. I think this is gonna be a great place to work.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Feb 13, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> That still sucks though. Sorry to hear about that.
> 
> I can't understand the desire to do utility work. Residential is so much cooler. I understand the steady work and all that.. but still, powerlines suck the big one! What, did WT knock up his little princess, or he just wanted more money to play with his toys? lol.


 LoL!
Na, when I canned him over the fight, he put out apps, Big O called about 3 weeks after I called him back, I cant offer the bennies and couldn't guarantee 40 during the winter..................
I dont think he will last long, he dont like the work..............I hope!
"Tell me what to do boss" gotta respect that, so I told him to go ahead. Still climbs for me every weekend, both days, getting ready to go out here in a bit to prune some pin oaks


----------



## gorman (Feb 13, 2011)

Workmans comp has been a big goal of mine for the past few years. In ri things r an wee bit crooked. There's only one racket that offers wc for tree laborers called beacon mutual. I am told through the grapevine they have the state gov in their pocket. They require all projected wages for the year paid up front for first time buyers. That in my opinion is a barrier to entry. I'm hustling right now trying to save up money for that first payment. 

Wish me luck getting out of barely legal status.


----------



## Climb020 (Feb 13, 2011)

Paying in full was the same for me in jersey. Paid what I thought was the full amount at first they recalculated based on wages and wanted another 2 grand or they where dropping me even after 1 month. Bunch of crap but not like I had an other option. Was either get and pay the WC or lose the contract with the company I do most of my work through.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 13, 2011)

jg55056 said:


> You make a good point. I tell them to take the extra 10% out of their check; that gets their attention and their time cards in line.


 

Yep.. sure would


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 13, 2011)

Climb020 said:


> Paying in full was the same for me in jersey. Paid what I thought was the full amount at first they recalculated based on wages and wanted another 2 grand or they where dropping me even after 1 month. Bunch of crap but not like I had an other option. Was either get and pay the WC or lose the contract with the company I do most of my work through.


 
How do you guys do WC .. is it paid to an insurance company.. and they essentially base the rates.. or are the rates governed by the state?

Ours is all gov't run.. they set rates and collect premiums.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 13, 2011)

lxt said:


> pdqdl, its not so much about classes of work or how the WC rate/code pertains to an employee............[B*]re-register as a landscape company but include tree care as being done occasionally.........then my WC rate drops considerably.............however... pray you never have an accident by doing it this way!!*


*

But some have stated that a landscaper can only perform certain tree work in some areas. In your area can a landscaper remove trees.. whole trees? Dangerous .. weak and failing trees? If so how does the WC handle this for landscapers.. some say they can use a rate that they switch back and forth.. others say in their area no.. not allowed.

However, regardless of rates.. even the lowest rate is at a disadvantage when not on same playing field.. ie: if you paying tree rates then you at disadvantage to somebody paying landscaping rates or somebody who is dodging system and not paying at all.*


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 13, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> But some have stated that a landscaper can only perform certain tree work in some areas. In your area can a landscaper remove trees.. whole trees? Dangerous .. weak and failing trees? If so how does the WC handle this for landscapers.. some say they can use a rate that they switch back and forth.. others say in their area no.. not allowed.
> 
> However, regardless of rates.. even the lowest rate is at a disadvantage when not on same playing field.. ie: if you paying tree rates then you at disadvantage to somebody paying landscaping rates or somebody who is dodging system and not paying at all.



Depends on what you are licensed for. 
Jeff, ( get them all)


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 13, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Depends on what you are licensed for.



And how do you get the license.. another fee to gov't


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 13, 2011)

Are you anti-capital?
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


----------



## Climb020 (Feb 13, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> How do you guys do WC .. is it paid to an insurance company.. and they essentially base the rates.. or are the rates governed by the state?
> 
> Ours is all gov't run.. they set rates and collect premiums.


 
Yea is paid through an insurance company. I had made a number calls for quotes but all where pretty much the same just based on what the industry rate is and being it was a first year policy with no history to go on. Using New Jersey Manufactures at the moment but was told that there was a cheaper company that I need to look into. Will be interested to see once my current policy is up if there really is that much of a difference. Though who actually sets the rates I am really not sure about if it is either the state or individual insurance carrier. As just a sub I haven't gotten up to my neck in the whole business aspect of things, just more so get what I need to conduct business, stay legal and hope to make a buck at the end of the year.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 13, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Are you anti-capital?
> Jeff :msp_biggrin:


 
Sent u a pm.. 

More anti socialist.. too many gov't fees get close to socialist.. or can.


----------



## jg55056 (Feb 14, 2011)

Rates are based on your past claim history/experience and on the number of claims in the "pool" of other businesses insured.


----------

