# My Portage & Main Optimizer 250 Install (w/Pics)



## J1m (Sep 14, 2011)

Greetings folks,

Being my first post here on the A/S, I'll dispense with the introductions and get to the good stuff:

We moved in to an 1880's farm house last February and basically froze our buns off inside at a balmy 62* all winter...And spent a cool 5 grand on oil and gas from Feb-Aprilish. We have approximately 2200 square feet to heat and have the option of re-hooking-up some radiant heat in a shop that the previous owner disconnected due to the cost of heating it with oil.

We did a ton of research and decided to go with the Portage & Main Optimizer 250. Yes, it was considerably more money than some of the other models - but in Maine, the traditional OWB isn't an option anymore. If my information is correct, the importation and sale of them became illegal sometime in 2007 or 2008. So, a gasification model was our only choice.

Here it is arriving at my house:







And we ended up using 110' of this stuff:






Buried at approximately 3':










Here it is in it's final resting place:










With the hole filled back in:


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## J1m (Sep 15, 2011)

And a gratuitous shot of our wood pile an holz hausen!


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## Bounty Hunter (Sep 15, 2011)

Nice Work Brother!

Looks great, and i'm sure it will seve you well. Nice little firewood stash ya got going too...




Plus ya got a GSD...that's Rep worthy alone!:msp_thumbup:

Welcome to the AS by the way...there's lots of good people, nut-jobs, freaks, and good-natured wood cutters on here...we all fit in somewhere...


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## kyle1! (Sep 15, 2011)

*Porus house*

Hopefully you spent some $$$ on making that old home a little more insulated. Sounds like alot of wood will be needed even if the unit is a gaser.

Brian


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## mooseracing (Sep 15, 2011)

J1m said:


> Greetings folks,
> 
> 
> 
> We moved in to an 1880's farm house last February and basically froze our buns off inside at a balmy 62* all winter...


 
Thats about all our woodstove keeps our old house at during the day. On a weekend we can get it up over 70 if burning hot. One of these days I'll have time to do some insulating.


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## Blazin (Sep 15, 2011)

Good luck with it! Got any wood cut yet? LOL!


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## J1m (Sep 15, 2011)

Blazin said:


> Good luck with it! Got any wood cut yet? LOL!


 
Yep - there's some wood right there in the last photo.

And I've tried like hell to post additional photos but when I do I get a semi-error message saying that my post will be added to the thread once a moderator approves it. How long does that last?


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## J1m (Sep 15, 2011)

Blazin said:


> Good luck with it! Got any wood cut yet? LOL!


 
Yep - there's some wood right there in the last picture.

What gives with this forum? I've tried to post additional pictures 3-4 times and I get an error message saying that my post won't show up until it's approved by a moderator?? How long does that last?


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## Blazin (Sep 15, 2011)

J1m said:


> Yep - there's some wood right there in the last picture.
> 
> What gives with this forum? I've tried to post additional pictures 3-4 times and I get an error message saying that my post won't show up until it's approved by a moderator?? How long does that last?


 
I did see the wood there, your gonna need more though  Not sure, but you need to have a certain number of posts to add pics I believe. 

welcome to AS by the way!


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## wampum (Sep 15, 2011)

J1m said:


> Yep - there's some wood right there in the last picture.
> 
> What gives with this forum? I've tried to post additional pictures 3-4 times and I get an error message saying that my post won't show up until it's approved by a moderator?? How long does that last?


 


You are new and are posting pics with a name of a stove in it,the auto checker is going to not allow you to post until it is checked. I spend a couple of hours here a day,but no mod is
just waiting here 24/7 to approve posts. When I log in I usually check them first thing,but sometimes a mod might not log in for several hours.Thanks Dave


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## J1m (Sep 16, 2011)

wampum said:


> You are new and are posting pics with a name of a stove in it,the auto checker is going to not allow you to post until it is checked. I spend a couple of hours here a day,but no mod is
> just waiting here 24/7 to approve posts. When I log in I usually check them first thing,but sometimes a mod might not log in for several hours.Thanks Dave



OK - I think I half understand. I get that I am new and unproven and that there are no 24/7 site babysitters...

However, I'm a member of about a dozen other internet forums and I have never heard of a picture being flagged for moderation simply because of the title of the photo. Is this some type of ultra sensitive anti-advertising policy or something? I named my pictures in Photobucket P&M - because I knew that would be in the title of my thread over here. Strange.


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## karlk (Sep 16, 2011)

Good luck with the P&M , Im going on the second year with mine and love it !


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## atlarge54 (Sep 16, 2011)

Looks nice----is the unit alone over $10K? How about some photos of the firebox etc. Can you burn wood in a gasifier that's stored outside.

I've poured a bit of concrete in my life and that slab looks like the rear corner will be in danger of breaking off.


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## J1m (Sep 16, 2011)

atlarge54 said:


> Looks nice----is the unit alone over $10K? How about some photos of the firebox etc. Can you burn wood in a gasifier that's stored outside.
> 
> I've poured a bit of concrete in my life and that slab looks like the rear corner will be in danger of breaking off.



I only quoted you, at atlarge54 - but let me try and address everyone's comments/questions and get this thing back on track!

No - I could not get the unit at under $10k. It's a long story, but I was quoted $10,500 by my dealer but when all was said and done with the exchange rates, exchange fees, etc. we're in the thing for $11,500 without thermopex, electrical wire, conduit, digging, concrete pads, etc. All that was extra.

Firebox, secondary burn chamber:









I had the same feeling as you regarding the concrete, so I added some more blue stone in the back. I also wanted to make myself a little perch for the back of the stove for when it's time to clean it. It'll make life much nicer when you're level with the boiler, I would guess.






Regarding wood stored outside? I don't think that's the problem as much as getting the moisture to around 20%.

@karlk: Can you comment a little more about your experiences with this thing? You say we'll love it, but what kind of burn times did you get, how much wood did you go through in what size house, how often did you have to clean it, were there any problems you didn't expect, etc?? 

@Blazin: You're right - the picture I provided didn't have a good angle of how much wood we have - but our stock pile is up to about 17-18 cord right now. 














@kyle1: Nope - we didn't spend very much buttoning up the house to be honest. The previous owners had new windows installed and we just had our exterior doors re-hung and that's about it. During the research process we decided that this is one step in a multi-step process to improving our winter comfort. Budget and time dictated only doing one step this summer/fall.

@Bountyhunter: Our GSD is our kid! She's the best! She does a reasonable job of helping with the wood, too! Dragging it right out of my pile on to the lawn! At least she gets it a little closer to the stove! 

The weather is getting colder here at night, so it won't be long before we get this thing fired up for the first time - probably within the next 2-3 weeks. We have high hopes!

(Sorry about the 2 sideways photos - I edited them in Photobucket to turn them but they still appeared wrong)


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## leon (Sep 16, 2011)

*portage and main installation*

I am glad you are going to be able to 
reduce your heating bill and keep your 
home warmer as well.

I have one question though, 
The roof line that is adjacent to the 
water stove is a concern only because 
a snow slide off the roof -if it happens
will make a beeline for the stack on the boiler.

Will you be adding more pipe-I hope?


Can we see more pictures of the furry guard dog if possible? hint, hint


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## karlk (Sep 17, 2011)

I clean my P&M every 2 weeks. also I load it 2 times a day winter or summer ,I could load one time but its just habit to load twice. I heat 3400sqft in Pa. last year I used 9 cord and the house was at 75degrees.


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## Blazin (Sep 17, 2011)

Ok....you got enough wood now!  Nice stacks, way more patience than me! LOL!


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## komatsuvarna (Sep 17, 2011)

Is that just standard 3408 HDPE on the pipe reel, or is it something special I cant see? 

Whats in the house to exchange to heat? I've thought about an OWB, but live in a early 1900s house thats low to the ground, and dont have much room for the big exchangers Ive seen.....unless Im confused with something else.


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## J1m (Sep 17, 2011)

leon said:


> I have one question though,
> The roof line that is adjacent to the
> water stove is a concern only because
> a snow slide off the roof -if it happens
> ...



Most of those pictures are from the day the stove was delivered - or a day or two later. Once everything is hooked up and running, I'll have a 4' stack on the stove. And the snow on that side of the house isn't much of a worry anyway - at least it wasn't last year. It did seem to accumulate but only up by the siding of the barn. That part of the house has asphalt roofing too which doesn't shed snow until spring...in the form of lots and lots of water!

Yes, I'd love to share more photos of our GSD Molly but it seems until I get my post count up, posting pictures for me is a royal PITA. When I submitted the last post with pics it took about a day and a half to get "approved". And previous to that, I responded with just text to some of the questions and THEN my pics got approved and it made this whole thread confusing...And it kind of makes things look out of sequence and a bit repetitive.


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## J1m (Sep 17, 2011)

komatsuvarna said:


> Is that just standard 3408 HDPE on the pipe reel, or is it something special I cant see?
> 
> Whats in the house to exchange to heat? I've thought about an OWB, but live in a early 1900s house thats low to the ground, and dont have much room for the big exchangers Ive seen.....unless Im confused with something else.



No, it's not just 3408 - it's some $14.00-a-foot-insulated-with-pure-******-gold-thermopex-stuff from Sweden or some other exotic locale.  And I needed 110'. Cha-ching!

Seriously though, it's just two 1" pex pipes inside some insulated 4" black plastic pipe. It's not very complicated stuff, but it IS still $14.00 a foot. :msp_confused:

There's a heat exchanger in the basement that's plumbed in with my existing furnace. Once I get my post count up and don't have to have pictures moderated anymore, I'll post a boatload more photos of the inside installation.


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## J1m (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow - I just noticed that I have 50 posts. Let's see if this works now!?

We've been running the stove for about 3 weeks now and can't be happier. Mostly we're just heating our hot water, but there have been a few nights where the temps were below 40* outside, so we heated on those nights. Words that have previously never been uttered in this house: "It's hot in here." 

I promised a boatload more pics, so here they are:

For komatsuvarna:

Before:






After:





Firing it up on the first day, gasification took about 15-20 minutes:





It smoked quite a bit at first - notice the 4' stack:









Here's the back all plumbed:


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## J1m (Oct 17, 2011)

Here's a closer look at the back:





And the brains of the boiler:





And the heat exchanger & brains on the inside of the house:





Shut offs in case we go away or decide not to run the boiler in the summer:





I can take photos at the oil furnace if anyone wants them, but those ones are kind of boring. Just a supply and a return to the heat exchanger in the other photo.

As I said, we couldn't be happier. We've had a learning curve with the boiler in terms of how to load it, how to avoid "bridging", how much/how little wood to load depending on how much heat we're calling for, etc. I've cleaned it once already - but probably didn't really need to.

Let me know if you want additional photos or have questions!


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## Fyrebug (Oct 17, 2011)

Just in case you are wondering, so as to add a little bit of product story telling. 

Portage & Maine is a street corner in downtown Winnipeg (otherwise known as Winterpeg). It is known to be the coldest street corner in Canada. Part of the reason is Manitoba is very cold in the winter and this street corner has many tall buildings that funnels cold artic air down the street. To the point the city built an underground walkway so you dont freeze on the spot waiting to cross the street!

Just thought you might like to know.


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## J1m (Oct 19, 2011)

Cool piece of trivia, Fyrebug - thanks.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 3, 2011)

So how's the 250 working for you? It's exactly what I'm looking into installing next year to heat my 3600sqft home and hot water. Looks like you've got a nice setup going for you.


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## J1m (Dec 3, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> So how's the 250 working for you? It's exactly what I'm looking into installing next year to heat my 3600sqft home and hot water. Looks like you've got a nice setup going for you.



We're really impressed with it, actually. We left on Thursday morning for the Thanksgiving weekend. I loaded it up as full as I could get it. Got back on Sunday and the water temp in the boiler was still at 133* and there was a 1" bed of active coals in the bottom! Didn't even have to use a match to restart it - just stirred up the coals, threw on some dry wood and a couple of hours later we were heating with wood again!


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## karlk (Dec 3, 2011)

Glad to hear you like your Portage & main J1m, mine has been running constantly since october last year ! Just cleaned it today. I am very impressed with this boiler and Im ready for another winter with a warm house.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 3, 2011)

J1m said:


> We're really impressed with it, actually. We left on Thursday morning for the Thanksgiving weekend. I loaded it up as full as I could get it. Got back on Sunday and the water temp in the boiler was still at 133* and there was a 1" bed of active coals in the bottom! Didn't even have to use a match to restart it - just stirred up the coals, threw on some dry wood and a couple of hours later we were heating with wood again!



Very good to hear. The nearest dealer is about an hour from me, I may head that way just to check them out. Problem is, I'm not ready to buy one, and I prolly will if I go


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## tinner_bob (Dec 4, 2011)

J1m,

Really like your set up and install. I have just recently started to look into OWB's and have noticed that the builder of you owb has changed the design of the gasifier tunnel. Looking at your pictures it appears that nothing has been changed in the rear. My question is. Are they still injecting air into the "tunnel" ? If so where is it being introduced into it so as to start it towards the rear.

Thank You!

off topic: Reid State Park is my most favorite place in the world! Maine is a beautiful State.


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## J1m (Dec 5, 2011)

tinner_bob said:


> ... I have just recently started to look into OWB's and have noticed that the builder of you owb has changed the design of the gasifier tunnel. Looking at your pictures it appears that nothing has been changed in the rear. My question is. Are they still injecting air into the "tunnel" ? If so where is it being introduced into it so as to start it towards the rear...



Not sure if this'll answer your question effectively or not because I know nothing of a previous design - just the one I've got. But - the air is introduced via a fan in the back of the unit controlled by an aquastat. It is blown through a channel in the back of the primary fire box and blows on to the flame from the back and top. "They" fabricated a rectangular channel that goes up the back of the primary and across the top. It has three or four 1/2 inch holes drilled in the steel.

The picture is kind of out of focus - but it's the best one I've got and the fire box is full of wood right now or I'd try and take a better one.






Then once the nozzle in this photo gets to about 700*, the unspent gasses will start burning.






And this is roughly what you get. I like to call it the blow torch because that's exactly what it sounds and looks like - especially at night!


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## tinner_bob (Dec 5, 2011)

Thank you.

If I am understanding you correctly all the air is going to the primary fire box. And none to the "blow torch"

Thanks again for the reply and pics.

Bob


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## Marc (Dec 5, 2011)

J1m, thanks for all the pictures and responses!

I'm just curious how much smoke and for how long you get out of this thing 1) when idling and 2) on start up/restart.

Thanks!


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## karlk (Dec 5, 2011)

Marc 
I have the older style P&M , they removed the brick tunnel to make it easier to clean. I can remove my brick also . I didnt remove them yet, but I can see how it must be easier to clean. There is air forced to the fire box and nozzle, there are two adjusters in the rear of the boiler for the air to the upper fire box and nozzle, you can see them in the pictures posted. As far as the smoke , there is very little if any in the winter when there is more demand and the fire is not in idle all day. I burn mine all summer so it will smoke very little for about 3 min after idling a lot.


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## Marc (Dec 5, 2011)

karlk said:


> Marc
> I have the older style P&M , they removed the brick tunnel to make it easier to clean. I can remove my brick also . I didnt remove them yet, but I can see how it must be easier to clean. There is air forced to the fire box and nozzle, there are two adjusters in the rear of the boiler for the air to the upper fire box and nozzle, you can see them in the pictures posted. As far as the smoke , there is very little if any in the winter when there is more demand and the fire is not in idle all day. I burn mine all summer so it will smoke very little for about 3 min after idling a lot.



Thanks for the information. So in the summer, when it's just sitting at idle, you don't get any noticeable smoke out of it?

Thanks again. Still considering an indoor or outdoor gassifier for my house a few years down the road. Still have time to think about options I guess.


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## tinner_bob (Dec 5, 2011)

Karlk
I can see the adjusters and the air for the firebox. Can you tell me where the air goes into the nozzle or tunnel?

Thanks
Bob


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## J1m (Dec 5, 2011)

tinner_bob said:


> Karlk
> I can see the adjusters and the air for the firebox. Can you tell me where the air goes into the nozzle or tunnel?
> 
> Thanks
> Bob



Bob,

The only air introduced in to the entire system is through those rectangular tubes in the picture I posted. The only direction for the air, smoke/gasses and blow torch flame (secondary burn) is through the nozzle in the bottom of the primary fire box.


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## J1m (Dec 5, 2011)

Marc said:


> J1m, thanks for all the pictures and responses!
> 
> I'm just curious how much smoke and for how long you get out of this thing 1) when idling and 2) on start up/restart.
> 
> Thanks!



Hi Marc,

I get a little smoke when the fan starts up and then when the system cycles off there is a little residual smoke as the coals smolder.

Burn times? Well, that's kind of a tricky subject. I'm still getting a handle on it depending on the temperature outside, how windy it is, how much heat we're calling for inside, etc.

This is my normal schedule over the past month or so: I'll feed it about half to 3/4 full at around 9:45 a.m., then I'll fill it almost all the way at about 6:30 or 7:00 p.m. And that's it. I think the longest I've gone with a full fire box is about 16 or 17 hours. 

I've only ever FILLED it filled it once and that was because we were going out of town for Thanksgiving and I wanted it to last as long as possible. No idea how long that one went, but when we got back on Sunday afternoon the temp was still 133* (I normally run 180*) and there were still coals in the bottom.


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## tinner_bob (Dec 5, 2011)

Thank you very very much.
That is exactly what I wanted to know.
Sorry for being a PITA

Bob


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## J1m (Dec 5, 2011)

tinner_bob said:


> Thank you very very much.
> That is exactly what I wanted to know.
> Sorry for being a PITA
> 
> Bob



You're more than welcome. To be honest, I enjoy discussing it!


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## MattNH (Dec 19, 2011)

Having a P&M 250 installed right now. Did trenching & placing of furnace yesterday and the plumbing will happen after Christmas. Looks like the same trailer that delivered your also delivered mine. I am glad to hear you are so happy with yours. I hope for the same.


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## karlk (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi Matt glad to hear you got the P&M ! You wont be sorry , I really like mine.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm really liking the 250. The more I read on it, the more I want one. 

16 or 17 hour burn time sounds great to me. 

Just curious, how big of a heat exchanger did you get (in BTUs)? I see your house is about 2200sqft.


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## MattNH (Dec 19, 2011)

Ordering wood now (late I know) and trying to figure out how much to get. Are you using any green wood or is everything seasoned? I can get green @ 265, 1year seasoned @ 300, and kiln dried @ 335 per cord. I'd love to get green but don't want issues with burning. No worries for next year, but this year will be expensive.


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## jrider (Dec 19, 2011)

MattNH said:


> Ordering wood now (late I know) and trying to figure out how much to get. Are you using any green wood or is everything seasoned? I can get green @ 265, 1year seasoned @ 300, and kiln dried @ 335 per cord. I'd love to get green but don't want issues with burning. No worries for next year, but this year will be expensive.



I got the P&M 250 in October and love it. Hasn't gotten very cold yet here in south Jersey but if I fill the box I can go just about 24 hours on a fill if I had to. I fill it up about half way once in the morning and at night just because I can at this point. 
It is recommeded though, that no green wood be burned in it. It supposedly messes up the gasification/efficiency of it.


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## karlk (Dec 20, 2011)

I would go with the 1yr seasond , And some green for next year.


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## J1m (Dec 20, 2011)

MattNH said:


> Ordering wood now (late I know) and trying to figure out how much to get. Are you using any green wood or is everything seasoned? I can get green @ 265, 1year seasoned @ 300, and kiln dried @ 335 per cord. I'd love to get green but don't want issues with burning. No worries for next year, but this year will be expensive.



Those are some pretty steep prices even for green! You will likely go through about 1/3 of a cord a week - give or take. So, conservatively in the Northeast, we're looking at another 17 weeks of heating (that's till mid April). I'm sure you've already done the math, but that's close to $2,000!

I'll agree with the other poster that the gasifiers like seasoned wood - but to save some cash maybe you can go with a 1/2 and 1/2 mix?


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## MattNH (Jan 2, 2012)

Boiler is on-line, wood is delivered, and it wont go below 40 degrees...At lease I will be ready for when it does. Thanks for all the help.

Anyone looking for a top notch installer, please let me know. I couldn't be happier with job my guy has done and how much he has helped get me up to speed on the in's and outs of my P&M OWB.


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## J1m (Jan 2, 2012)

MattNH said:


> Boiler is on-line, wood is delivered, and it wont go below 40 degrees...At lease I will be ready for when it does. Thanks for all the help.
> 
> Anyone looking for a top notch installer, please let me know. I couldn't be happier with job my guy has done and how much he has helped get me up to speed on the in's and outs of my P&M OWB.



Hey Matt -

Just curious if we used the same guy? One other comment you made and then this one led me to wonder. Are his initials RE? Lives in Southern Maine?


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## OH_Varmntr (Jan 2, 2012)

You guys are making me want to pull the trigger on a Opti 250. 

MattNH, you have any pics of your install?


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## MattNH (Jan 3, 2012)

His initials are indeed RE. I thought I had recognized his trailer from your install pictures. He is a good guy and we are happy with his work. 

Speaking of pictures, I have not taken any but will do so and post here on this thread.


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## J1m (Jan 3, 2012)

MattNH said:


> His initials are indeed RE. I thought I had recognized his trailer from your install pictures. He is a good guy and we are happy with his work.
> 
> Speaking of pictures, I have not taken any but will do so and post here on this thread.



Yep, he's a good guy.

Regarding pictures...If you had the same guy install yours...Your pics might bear a striking resemblance to the ones I already posted. LOL :jester:


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## ihookem (Jan 3, 2012)

I have an EKO 25 and like it but it seems a very fussy wood boiler. When it comes to gassifiers you need dry wood and there is no way around it. It wont gassify if the wood is moist. The drier the better, if the wood fizzes and water comes out when burning it's too wet.


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## MattNH (Jan 27, 2012)

OH_Varmntr said:


> You guys are making me want to pull the trigger on a Opti 250.
> 
> MattNH, you have any pics of your install?



Finally wrestled the camera away from the wife, but that is another story.:msp_smile:

I will take some more but here is the start. The OWB sits +/- 175 feet from the house.
View attachment 219998


View attachment 219999


Back of the furnace is has been pre-plumbed to heat the pool come this summer. We will finish with the plumbing & second trench in April/May.
View attachment 220000


...and here is where we enter the house...
View attachment 220001


HX in the top of the FHA plenum.
View attachment 220002


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## MattNH (Jan 27, 2012)

Unlimited HW...wife plus 3 kids have not come close to denting it.
View attachment 220012
View attachment 220013


More to follow...


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## Ductape (Jan 27, 2012)

Mind if I ask where LFOD is ?

Nice looking install.


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## MattNH (Jan 27, 2012)

Ductape said:


> Mind if I ask where LFOD is ?
> 
> Nice looking install.



Life free or die...I'm in Brentwood


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## Ductape (Jan 27, 2012)

10-4. Was racking my brain thinking of town nicknames so I wouldn't have to ask. :bang:


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## J1m (Jan 28, 2012)

MattNH said:


> Back of the furnace is has been pre-plumbed to heat the pool come this summer. We will finish with the plumbing & second trench in April/May.
> View attachment 220000



Hey Matt,

Why did he install the dial thermostats on both the supply and return lines in the back of your boiler? Theorhetically you already know the temperature of your boiler water based on the read out on the digital control, right? Based on the distance from your boiler to your house, wouldn't it have made more sense to install those inside where the lines enter the basement? Then if you're curious about your temperatures, just go down stairs.


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## MattNH (Jan 30, 2012)

J1m said:


> Hey Matt,
> 
> Why did he install the dial thermostats on both the supply and return lines in the back of your boiler? Theorhetically you already know the temperature of your boiler water based on the read out on the digital control, right? Based on the distance from your boiler to your house, wouldn't it have made more sense to install those inside where the lines enter the basement? Then if you're curious about your temperatures, just go down stairs.



Jim,
I was thinking the same thing...then I cleaned the cast plumbing with the gook-off and got some on the LCD which makes it nearly impossible to read. Now I'm happy to have it. 

What I have a hard time believing is that I lose so little heat with the 170 feet run from the boiler to the the house...and then back again. The biggest difference I have seen yet is 13 degrees.


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## J1m (Jan 30, 2012)

MattNH said:


> Jim,
> I was thinking the same thing...then I cleaned the cast plumbing with the gook-off and got some on the LCD which makes it nearly impossible to read. Now I'm happy to have it.
> 
> What I have a hard time believing is that I lose so little heat with the 170 feet run from the boiler to the the house...and then back again. The biggest difference I have seen yet is 13 degrees.



***Note to self, NO GOOF-OFF in back of boiler!!***


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## tinner_bob (Jan 30, 2012)

A couple of more questions, if I may. 

Hot burn chamber reload question.

Is there a bypass that you open before opening the loading door?
or
does the fan just shut off and the air damper close.

If this is the case isn't there a lot of smoke and heat coming out at you while reloading. 


When the fan shuts down. does the smoke still exit through the bottom reaction chamber?

Sorry for being somewhat repetitive. But I do want to understand this.

Sounds like you all are loving these owb's

Thanks,
Bob


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## J1m (Feb 1, 2012)

Bob,

If I understand your question correctly, you might have it backwards. You WANT to load the furnace with the fan on. The fan stokes the fire from the top and the back - but you get very little smoke out the door with it running. Sure, there's some heat, but it's not unbearable. I wear work gloves and just throw my logs in so I'm not near the open door for very long.

Contrast the enormous billowing plume of smoke when you open the door without the fan running and the coals are just smouldering...Can you say COUGH? Yes, the smoke still exits the stove out the bottom of the fire box and through the series of heat exchangers before it goes out the stack. There's no where else for it to go.

Oh, there is the option to turn off the fan with a little black switch on the top right of the stove but the only time I use that switch is when the fan is running and I want to clean the boiler.


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## MattNH (Feb 1, 2012)

I couldn't agree more Jim. Load with the fan on and turn it off when cleaning. Filling when the fire is smoldering is asking for a smoke bath.


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## Marc (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's a question for you gents- the boys with the indoor version of this type of version (Tarm, Eko, Froling et al) generally burn them all out until the house is warm or until the load is gone to avoid idling. Many of them use large thermal mass water storage so they can fire the boiler and store excess heat so they don't have big temp swings in the house.

Do you generally use the MO of most other outside wood boilers even though they're gassifiers? I.E., let the t-stats call for heat as the house needs it and keep the boiler topped up, and just deal with the inevitability of idling? Does anyone try to burn them in complete cycles to get the best efficiency and cleanest burn? Anyone considered using them with heat storage?


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## tinner_bob (Feb 1, 2012)

Big THANKS guys!


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## J1m (Feb 1, 2012)

Marc said:


> Here's a question for you gents- the boys with the indoor version of this type of version (Tarm, Eko, Froling et al) generally burn them all out until the house is warm or until the load is gone to avoid idling. Many of them use large thermal mass water storage so they can fire the boiler and store excess heat so they don't have big temp swings in the house.
> 
> Do you generally use the MO of most other outside wood boilers even though they're gassifiers? I.E., let the t-stats call for heat as the house needs it and keep the boiler topped up, and just deal with the inevitability of idling? Does anyone try to burn them in complete cycles to get the best efficiency and cleanest burn? Anyone considered using them with heat storage?



I'm not sure I entirely understand your question, Marc.

I've been running my stove since the third week of September and the temperature fluctuates exactly zero degrees inside my house unless I change the thermostat up or down in one of the 7 zones.

My boiler temps are at 180 fan off, 170 fan on. So there are several periods of "inevitable idle time" each day. In fact I welcome those periods because I'm not burning any wood nor am I paying the electric man to run my fan.

There are two pumps running through my heat exchanger 24/7. One is the supply/return for the OWB and one is for supply/return for the oil furnace. Whenever one of my zones calls for heat, that pump will activate and send warm water through that loop.

Im not sure what the advantage of having mass water storage would be. I'd still be heating the 250 gallons in the OWB and the water in the mass storage tank...And probably burn more wood.


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## Marc (Feb 1, 2012)

J1m said:


> I'm not sure I entirely understand your question, Marc.
> 
> I've been running my stove since the third week of September and the temperature fluctuates exactly zero degrees inside my house unless I change the thermostat up or down in one of the 7 zones.
> 
> ...



The advantage of having storage is being able to burn a full load of wood without idling, all at once and gaining efficiency. You lose efficiency at idle and on every restart. So the idea is, you burn the boiler when it's convenient for you to do so, until you've satisfied the heat demand of the house and increased the temperature of your storage to whatever your design temp is. Then as there are additional heat demands from the central heat, or DHW, or whatever, they draw heat off the storage. It's a common set up for indoor gassifiers and required for the real fancy indoor biolers with microcontrollers and lambda sensors (e.g. Froling, Effecta).


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## J1m (Feb 1, 2012)

Marc said:


> The advantage of having storage is being able to burn a full load of wood without idling, all at once and gaining efficiency. You lose efficiency at idle and on every restart. So the idea is, you burn the boiler when it's convenient for you to do so, until you've satisfied the heat demand of the house and increased the temperature of your storage to whatever your design temp is. Then as there are additional heat demands from the central heat, or DHW, or whatever, they draw heat off the storage. It's a common set up for indoor gassifiers and required for the real fancy indoor biolers with microcontrollers and lambda sensors (e.g. Froling, Effecta).



Sounds like a total PITA. I just want to throw wood in the thing twice a day and forget about it. Thinking about heat demands in the house, guaging exactly how much wood would be used to heat the water in the boiler plus the water in a separate bulk storage tank all at once plus thinking about the outside temperature and wind on any given day. Woah. That's a whole lot like work!!!

I'm no whiz at this stuff, so please educate me: I don't quite understand how you lose efficiency.

When idle, this boiler acts basically like a 250 gallon bulk storage tank that's constantly circulating warm water through the heat exchanger inside. When the temperature of the water gets down to 170, the fan kicks on and only burns wood until the water temp gets up to 180. This on/off cycle takes approximately 30 minutes. As it lays dormant - very very little wood is burned. When the fan goes on, gasification happens within 10-15 seconds so it's heating the water almost immediately and burning wood only during this time.

Even if you're able to convince me that you lose some efficiency without using bulk storage, thereby burning a little more wood, what you described above hardly sounds like an efficient way to spend one's time.


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## THE PLUMMER (Feb 1, 2012)

If one only sees only a few degrees temperature drop or Delta T on your supply and return, It could be too big of pump or lack of heat exchange going on. For indoor boilers each type of radiation has a design DT, baseboard=20, air handler=10-16, infloor 10 for warming or idling design and 20 for heating, etc. This exchange of temperature or btu's givin off at a heat source is important to control comfort and efficiency. Normal design temp for most applications is 20 degreez delta T. There are specific designs that may use a different system DT.


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## Marc (Feb 2, 2012)

J1m said:


> Sounds like a total PITA. I just want to throw wood in the thing twice a day and forget about it. Thinking about heat demands in the house, guaging exactly how much wood would be used to heat the water in the boiler plus the water in a separate bulk storage tank all at once plus thinking about the outside temperature and wind on any given day. Woah. That's a whole lot like work!!!



I don't have one of these setups, but from what I gather, the system is meant to be a convenience, not a PITA. In other words, the system is designed such that when you're burning a load of wood, the house heating demand is satsified first (if there is one) and the excess goes into storage, all automatically through thermal controls. You don't ever hardly think about it after it is designed.



J1m said:


> I'm no whiz at this stuff, so please educate me: I don't quite understand how you lose efficiency.
> 
> When idle, this boiler acts basically like a 250 gallon bulk storage tank that's constantly circulating warm water through the heat exchanger inside. When the temperature of the water gets down to 170, the fan kicks on and only burns wood until the water temp gets up to 180. This on/off cycle takes approximately 30 minutes. *As it lays dormant - very very little wood is burned. When the fan goes on, gasification happens within 10-15 seconds so it's heating the water almost immediately and burning wood only during this time.*



This is an assertion, but may not be true. The efficiency lost is from the smoldering during idle and at every restart. I'd venture to say it's significant enough to a lot of people, i.e. people with indoor versions of these things try to achieve full burns with no idling and mid burn restarts. There's even a company that designs the boiler and water storage as one unit (GARN |). 



J1m said:


> Even if you're able to convince me that you lose some efficiency without using bulk storage, thereby burning a little more wood, what you described above hardly sounds like an efficient way to spend one's time.



We know two things for sure
1) Idling and restarts are not as efficient as a full load burn
2) Lower efficiency means more wood, more unburnt gas

How much more wood is needed and how much more smoke produces I'm sure varies based on myriad of factors. I know in the summer if you want to do DHW with a wood appliance, storage makes a lot of sense. And determing the cost of the extra wood and smoke vs. the cost of the storage system is something a person has to and should choose for oneself. I'm not here to convince you or anyone else of anything, just to ask questions and learn. And share knowledge if I can.


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## CrappieKeith (May 14, 2012)

ihookem said:


> I have an EKO 25 and like it but it seems a very fussy wood boiler. When it comes to gassifiers you need dry wood and there is no way around it. It wont gassify if the wood is moist. The drier the better, if the wood fizzes and water comes out when burning it's too wet.



Fussy ya say.....it is impossible to make all of the btu's in a lb of wood when it is wet enough to sizzle.
Do yourself a favor and put up the wood sooner...let it dry out...that is if you want an efficient clean wood burner.


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