# Leaner technique



## Woody912 (Feb 24, 2016)

Anyone else seen this? Just curious as to the pro's and con's. I think Wade is a lot smarter than he sounds sometimes


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## northmanlogging (Feb 24, 2016)

gol or coos, and I can't believe I'm saying this, is quicker and simpler.

The GOL or SSD or bore cut, establishes the hold wood while leaving a "trigger" or safety strap, accomplishes the same thing with one less cut, keeping the hold wood to the ideal amount, be it 10% of dia or 1-2 inches etc, with a properly cleaned out face cut shouldn't chair.

The coos is granted a little more risky but quicker and simpler.

This knotch lock thing, while not a bad idea, is really kinda pointless since it relies on a trigger strap anyway, plus if the tree is going to chair because of too much hold wood it will chair anyway as soon as it clears the knotch.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.


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## bigbarf48 (Feb 24, 2016)

I use a bore cut with trigger wood on the back end to fall heavy forward leaners. Seems to work fine and looks to be faster


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## madhatte (Feb 25, 2016)

Nothing wrong with boring when you gotta.



northmanlogging said:


> This knotch lock thing, while not a bad idea, is really kinda pointless since it relies on a trigger strap anyway, plus if the tree is going to chair because of too much hold wood it will chair anyway as soon as it clears the knotch.



I've cut a few alders this way but you're right; it's usually more work than it's worth and there are simpler methods that leave you open to less risk.


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## Gologit (Feb 25, 2016)

Leaners? Try the Coos Bay cut. Boring or the SSD have their place but the Coos Bay gives you a little better chance of not 'chairing.
I prefer the V cut because it seems easier to match your cuts but either way will work.


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## Woody912 (Feb 25, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Leaners? Try the Coos Bay cut. Boring or the SSD have their place but the Coos Bay gives you a little better chance of not 'chairing.
> I prefer the V cut because it seems easier to match your cuts but either way will work.


I had to watch his vid a couple times to understand what he was doing, does seem a little more complicated. I'm just a firewood cutter but I have examined a few hundred stumps cut by local loggers and am pretty certain that I can say no one uses a Coos bay cut around here. ( probably too much fiber pull on high $$ timber?) They all bore cut and then trip a trigger. after seeing an 880 fly thru the air on another vid I will doing all mine with an upcut instead of a downcut from now on!


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## sw oh logger (Feb 25, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Leaners? Try the Coos Bay cut. Boring or the SSD have their place but the Coos Bay gives you a little better chance of not 'chairing.
> I prefer the V cut because it seems easier to match your cuts but either way will work.
> Nothing against these cuts,BUT in the Midwest and in the hills of the South when you're cutting a veneer Walnut or White Oak, for example, there isn't enough room to leave this kind of holding wood if the tree isn't at least 30 inches or larger, let alone you can't leave any heart wood to tear or pull--so it isn't just the lean you're fighting, but also the value of the butt log you might lose.


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## Gologit (Feb 25, 2016)

Hey, no problem. If it doesn't work for you, don't use it. That should go without saying,


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## Skeans (Feb 25, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> I had to watch his vid a couple times to understand what he was doing, does seem a little more complicated. I'm just a firewood cutter but I have examined a few hundred stumps cut by local loggers and am pretty certain that I can say no one uses a Coos bay cut around here. ( probably too much fiber pull on high $$ timber?) They all bore cut and then trip a trigger. after seeing an 880 fly thru the air on another vid I will doing all mine with an upcut instead of a downcut from now on!


Where these cuts where developed is a place where a hard wood can and will follow a steep hillside fighting for light and they are high dollars sticks as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## madhatte (Feb 25, 2016)

It always bugs me to see guys risk so much to save out board-inches. I'll always err on the side of safety, which means to cut it efficiently and get away. I want to spend as little time at the stump as possible.


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## Skeans (Feb 25, 2016)

madhatte said:


> It always bugs me to see guys risk so much to save out board-inches. I'll always err on the side of safety, which means to cut it efficiently and get away. I want to spend as little time at the stump as possible.


I agree we have all spent too much time on an alder or a blow down stump to see our saw or worse someone killed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## bitzer (Feb 26, 2016)

I don't remember the last time i bored a tree. The coos bay can be used efficiently on all hard leaning hardwood with minimal to no fiber pull. Its all in the cuts. Face and back. It just has to be executed properly. The "v" backcut does not remove enough wood for the heaviest, hardest leaners. Typically i use the "strip" or what looks like a "T" shape if you include the hinge. If you do it right (one quarter of the back then the other) you will have the middle sawn out and the tree will pull the back of the stump out of the ground as it goes. Saw that off when its down and you've got a clean butt.


Northman said it about the 'lock' technique. Once the tree passes that, whats to keep it from splitting? How about executing proper cuts and you don't have to worry about it.


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## bitzer (Feb 26, 2016)

madhatte said:


> It always bugs me to see guys risk so much to save out board-inches. I'll always err on the side of safety, which means to cut it efficiently and get away. I want to spend as little time at the stump as possible.


I agree, but that butt log can be worth double or more what the rest of the tree is worth. It just needs to be cut up right and can be done safely without a lot of bs.


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## rwoods (Feb 26, 2016)

bitzer said:


> I don't remember the last time i bored a tree. ... Typically i use the "strip" or what looks like a "T" shape if you include the hinge. If you do it right (one quarter of the back then the other) you will have the middle sawn out and the tree will pull the back of the stump out of the ground as it goes. ... .



Bitzer, I am trying to visualize your cut and am guessing with the root pull that you are essentially cutting out the strip front to back and though technically not using a bore cut, you are doing the same thing. If not, what am I missing?

Ron


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## madhatte (Feb 26, 2016)

bitzer said:


> I agree, but that butt log can be worth double or more what the rest of the tree is worth. It just needs to be cut up right and can be done safely without a lot of bs.



I can see that in hardwoods, considering how the branching of the crown goes compared to softwoods. My experience is largely Douglas-Fir, which is a super well-behaved tree on the stump compared to lots of others.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 26, 2016)

Just an assumption on my part, based loosely on experience, seems that the face cut has as much or more to do with fiber pull than anything. Narrow little face and the stem will want to lift off the stump rather then fold and break the fibers. But the down side is that a wide open face will let the tree more or less free fall and smash hard into the dirt? That part I'm still kinda working on though...

Granted hold wood still has an effect on both speed and fiber pull, its finding that balance between the two that I may never find... every tree is different and they all have their own issues, can't just say here's the magic formula and go.

Also I still hold the theory that a lot of chairs are caused by stalling the tree, usually by not having the face cleaned out good enough, but also by not cutting through the back fast enough, tree starts to go but then stops for whatever reason, puts a tremendous amount of stress on one tiny point, that just so happens to be where your saw is currently cutting. Kinda the whole point of having a big fast saw is to get through that danger point as fast as possible, as well as methods like the Coos, cut that back up quick like and GTFO.


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## Gologit (Feb 26, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Also I still hold the theory that a lot of chairs are caused by stalling the tree, usually by not having the face cleaned out good enough, but also by not cutting through the back fast enough, tree starts to go but then stops for whatever reason, puts a tremendous amount of stress on one tiny point, that just so happens to be where your saw is currently cutting. Kinda the whole point of having a big fast saw is to get through that danger point as fast as possible, as well as methods like the Coos, cut that back up quick like and GTFO.



Exactly right.


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## Woody912 (Feb 26, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Just an assumption on my part, based loosely on experience, seems that the face cut has as much or more to do with fiber pull than anything. Narrow little face and the stem will want to lift off the stump rather then fold and break the fibers. But the down side is that a wide open face will let the tree more or less free fall and smash hard into the dirt? That part I'm still kinda working on though...
> 
> Granted hold wood still has an effect on both speed and fiber pull, its finding that balance between the two that I may never find... every tree is different and they all have their own issues, can't just say here's the magic formula and go.
> 
> Also I still hold the theory that a lot of chairs are caused by stalling the tree, usually by not having the face cleaned out good enough, but also by not cutting through the back fast enough, tree starts to go but then stops for whatever reason, puts a tremendous amount of stress on one tiny point, that just so happens to be where your saw is currently cutting. Kinda the whole point of having a big fast saw is to get through that danger point as fast as possible, as well as methods like the Coos, cut that back up quick like and GTFO.



A lot of midwestern hardwood is cut when temps are well below freezing, wonder if that is a contributing factor??? There are several species that I try to split when the temp is -10F or so, don't split worth a darn at 50


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## bitzer (Feb 26, 2016)

rwoods said:


> Bitzer, I am trying to visualize your cut and am guessing with the root pull that you are essentially cutting out the strip front to back and though technically not using a bore cut, you are doing the same thing. If not, what am I missing?
> 
> Ron


More or less. The entire saw is never in the compression zone at any one time. Each quarter can be sawn from the side or behind the tree. This way you can pull the saw out more quickly and kind of read what the tree is going to do. You don't have a full bar stuck in the tree for it to sit on.


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## bitzer (Feb 26, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Exactly right.


Yep.


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## bitzer (Feb 26, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> A lot of midwestern hardwood is cut when temps are well below freezing, wonder if that is a contributing factor??? There are several species that I try to split when the temp is -10F or so, don't split worth a darn at 50


Not really. If a tree is going to chair for whatever reason it will chair. I will say the hold wood is more brittle.


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## bitzer (Feb 26, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Just an assumption on my part, based loosely on experience, seems that the face cut has as much or more to do with fiber pull than anything. Narrow little face and the stem will want to lift off the stump rather then fold and break the fibers. But the down side is that a wide open face will let the tree more or less free fall and smash hard into the dirt? That part I'm still kinda working on though...
> 
> Granted hold wood still has an effect on both speed and fiber pull, its finding that balance between the two that I may never find... every tree is different and they all have their own issues, can't just say here's the magic formula and go.
> 
> Also I still hold the theory that a lot of chairs are caused by stalling the tree, usually by not having the face cleaned out good enough, but also by not cutting through the back fast enough, tree starts to go but then stops for whatever reason, puts a tremendous amount of stress on one tiny point, that just so happens to be where your saw is currently cutting. Kinda the whole point of having a big fast saw is to get through that danger point as fast as possible, as well as methods like the Coos, cut that back up quick like and GTFO.




Maybe put a snipe on that wide face. Gutting the heartwood helps tremendously.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 28, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> I had to watch his vid a couple times to understand what he was doing, does seem a little more complicated. I'm just a firewood cutter but I have examined a few hundred stumps cut by local loggers and am pretty certain that I can say no one uses a Coos bay cut around here. ( probably too much fiber pull on high $$ timber?) They all bore cut and then trip a trigger. after seeing an 880 fly thru the air on another vid I will doing all mine with an upcut instead of a downcut from now on!


 Well that's what 'ya' get from releasing the tree from the butt and not the stump. Why would you not release the leaner with your bar tip using a flat cut under your bore a few inches. Regardless of a saw getting crushed, angled cuts, especially from the bottom puts the cutter at a huge disadvantage considering we are already at a disadvantage from clearing our stump. *slaps forehead*
I saw a video on here of a guy cutting down 60° with his face right in the bite.

This chit is a direct result of over using it where it dosent belong. When it's needed its done unsafe. Safe would be anatomically correct for staters. There is a lot of horse chit out there, that's a fact.
On a lighter note, Wade is quite the character, His video was shown on here some time ago. I agree with others that there are better and safer cuts in place that are certifed in my area. You are putting the force on the holding wood and could separate the front of the stump.
The tree has time to stretch and stall. Try that chit on rock in Cedar country and see if you don't get ripped in half or taken by a 60' root wad.

" I couldn't quote you no Dickens... Shelley or Keats
'cause it's all been 'said' before
Make the best out of the bad and...laugh it off!"


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## FSburt (Feb 28, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Maybe put a snipe on that wide face. Gutting the heartwood helps tremendously.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 28, 2016)

what in the heck is with the step in the 'West Coast Swanson? It will stall the butt and spike the top?? I guess the objective was met in this fall.

*Edit* I mean why wasn't the slide continued through?I only do that to save my life or save the wood. Just seems it's Incomplete? Hey if It worked it worked.
*Edit again* OK I caught the conversation.


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## Woody912 (Feb 28, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> what in the heck is with the step in the 'West Coast Swanson? It will stall the butt and spike the top?? I guess it's not important in this fall



I'm totally confused with the additional higher face cut and two back cuts. Is the secondary face stop supposed to make it jump the stump and how does it affect a leaner?


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 28, 2016)

Hey bud, how's it going?

I would guess its a scribe mark that was low in regards to the backcut.
As we call it; West Coast Swanson with the sharp angle out of the front of the Humboldt. A regular Swanson cut is a 1 to 1 ratio basically twice the opening of a Humboldt. So it's for getting the butt to the ground before the top. VERY important on hills as the wipping action will send the tree back at you. It changes where the compression meets then hits a quick slide.


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## FSburt (Feb 29, 2016)

Tree just had a funky sharp lip to it on the original snipe so I cut that off so it would close on a larger more square piece of wood. My backcut looks all wamperjawed because of I had to cut all the bark off because it kept plugging up my bar and chain. Tree did have some side lean to it as well but it held in there to the lay with no issues.


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## bitzer (Feb 29, 2016)

rwoods said:


> Bitzer, I am trying to visualize your cut and am guessing with the root pull that you are essentially cutting out the strip front to back and though technically not using a bore cut, you are doing the same thing. If not, what am I missing?
> 
> Ron


Here is one of my variations of a Coos bay from a week or so ago. This tree had some head lean and down hill lean but wasn't too bad. I didn't want to chase the back cut because of the snag, but you get the main idea. I'm going to start taking more video from the job. I took about a dozen from this last one. Just need the time to upload em all. On a real hard leaner the back of the stump would pull out. And for anyone curious I have been double fistin donuts lately! Dam mild winter not keeping me in shape, but I'm eatin the same if I was hittin it hard!


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## rwoods (Feb 29, 2016)

I'll have to watch this later on a big screen. Thanks, Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 29, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Here is one of my variations of a Coos bay from a week or so ago. This tree had some head lean and down hill lean but wasn't too bad. I didn't want to chase the back cut because of the snag, but you get the main idea. I'm going to start taking more video from the job. I took about a dozen from this last one. Just need the time to upload em all. On a real hard leaner the back of the stump would pull out. And for anyone curious I have been double fistin donuts lately! Dam mild winter not keeping me in shape, but I'm eatin the same if I was hittin it hard!
> 
> [/QUOTEhttps://youtu.be/u9Dg-g7t2l4


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 29, 2016)




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## bitzer (Mar 1, 2016)

Mistuh Kurtz he dead.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Mistuh Kurtz he dead.



Did you read Heart of Darkness? I have not.


"Chips were flyin' Raccoon's were cryin' "

I could see a raccoon above when I was making the fall, the Hoe operator said one made it, he figured he could have a chance because of all the BlackBerry bushes but another must have got scared and stayed in its home in the crotch. I guess there wasn't much left. ..I didn't see it. That one was a 5'6" Dia. 11 ft to the Fraser river on the low side. That's a pic of me stabing in the low side. I was able to reach as I could lean on the cable on one side and a saplings on the other so no springboard nedded here. The cable is holding a dock.
I couldn't finish the undercut as it was getting tight so I bored the last bit. I had to get the Hoe operator to take some low weight to cut the low side. You can see me struggling when I start on the back low from pinch. This saw Is my back up and Is just a 52mm BB and mufler, no porting. It's a temporary thing? Everything is.
Got a vid if it loads? See me do a beaver tail...by habit

Peace


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## bitzer (Mar 3, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Did you read Heart of Darkness? I have not.View attachment 489566
> View attachment 489568
> 
> "Chips were flyin' Raccoon's were cryin' "
> ...


Yes I've read it. Its on my bookshelf. T.S. Elliot and the hollow men is somewhere on that same shelf. 

That a cottonwood? I had three coons roll out of a crotch a week or so ago. One must've had a busted leg cuz he hobbled off into the brush. The other two kept sleeping. I poked em with the bar and they moved, but they didn't want to be bothered. They were gone the next day.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Yes I've read it. Its on my bookshelf. T.S. Elliot and the hollow men is somewhere on that same shelf.
> 
> That a cottonwood? I had three coons roll out of a crotch a week or so ago. One must've had a busted leg cuz he hobbled off into the brush. The other two kept sleeping. I poked em with the bar and they moved, but they didn't want to be bothered. They were gone the next day.


 Yeah he wrote some masterpieces. Sounds like you have a nice collection. Good taste. The song I posted is a very powerful cover. I will have to play it for my Dad on his Birthday next week. He will love it. Maybe he has heard it? I know he will think it's incredible.

You had Raccoons in a tree too. Ha-ha.
Yes that's a Cottonwood variation from the coast. The interior ones are cool because they have that very deep groved bark on the larger ones. I will try load the vid again. I believe it said I can only have 8.9 MB? (Dosen't seem like much for a limit) It's about 5 min long. Maybe I will have to trim it some how? I'll get it done eventually.


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## Woody912 (Mar 3, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Did you read Heart of Darkness? I have not.View attachment 489566
> View attachment 489568
> 
> "Chips were flyin' Raccoon's were cryin' "
> ...



I have a red oak stump looks like that complete with coon. Had to make the face cut over my head so it took me forever but he stayed in it and then was trapped after it fell. did not feel like cooking coon so I cut him out and he hobbled off


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 5, 2016)

Ok if a pictures worth a thousand words.
Then this ought to make up for my 10's of Thousands of words.

"There's those that teach and those that do"

and of course there's those that can do both...lol.

*WARNING
animals died jurring the filming of this vidio


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 5, 2016)




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## Woody912 (Mar 5, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> I have a red oak stump looks like that complete with coon. Had to make the face cut over my head so it took me forever but he stayed in it and then was trapped after it fell. did not feel like cooking coon so I cut him out and he hobbled off


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 5, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> View attachment 490164
> View attachment 490165


That's funny, 'he' was actually traped. I have had a half a week cutting over my head. The day before I cut this one we only had30 - 40 ft from the road to the river and they were mostly doubles or schoolmarms of Cottonwood. Sometimes a could stand on another stump. I felt like I was helli falling again.

In the North I see Martin's living in the Cottonwood alot. I saw a big rat running away also from this tree pictured...lol. They will end up moving in to a house now


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## bitzer (Mar 6, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


>



Looks like fun! Are those logs out in the river? I wish I had something to cut over 4ft diameter. Thats about where our merch timber ends. I've cut willows over 5ft and I've walked by cottonwoods in the 6ft range, but the biggest wood I've sent to the mill was red oak and sugar maple in the 4 1/2ft range. After that the wood gets questionable and they don't saw cottonwood or at least don't pay for it.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 6, 2016)

Yeah man they are but I'm not doing it.
I'm the Urban Surgeon now..Haha
I wish I was that good. Anyway..I am Falling for property development in the Fraser Valley and Vancouver lower mainland. I'm makeing more a day than a production inlet faller. That's because I work with my operator so I work 8 hours at $85 but they get $100 at 6.5 hours I'm right on the border got a beautiful view of MT Baker in WA most every day. It looks a few ft away. WA and BC got bigger sticks than OR & the AK. I'm going to enjoy been in 'town' for a while and that's something I haven't had much of.
Yesterday was a good one you would have loved. Just one day pretty much all Cotton and about 150 trees and just slamming them when you could. The Hoe brushes out and pushes the rest when you are ready.
Probably about 30 were about 3ft. I started with that 33" bar but did most with a 28" I liked it because it gives me more practice Boring in the low side and walking around. IDK man, I got payed a bunch of money and a woman shook my hand three times & massaged my...um...ego.. Lol
Basically I had 4 Hoe's on me...well 5 counting the ISA/ forestry degree woman..lol
IDK, I like 'em about 2' - 3 ' in Dia. Hey I'm not 47 anymore, the big one's can mainly be harder work. Your saw sounds pretty mean, I like it. So no limbing or bucking with Cottonwood.One day I did limb & buck the with one company as well other species.
That's what we call a "Beaver tail" so basically the "T" cut Gologit posted in the attachment but it's cut off in a different direction on large Dia. No need to cut under like a trigger/back strap because of how the pressure is spread, IMO? That cut will save you if you go cut cedar. You will go down in a webb of roots, tree and all. You always get to finish at the door of you escape route on a hill. Obviously it's Easy on the wood as well barber chairing been the other consern.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 6, 2016)

Idk what they do with it? (Cottonwood).
It's no good for firewood, I don't recall it an log trucks? Lots of Aspen though in the north that's mainly for OSB. Yesterday they had a big grinder machine and they have to grind all the stumps and maybe the Cottonwood too? It goes for mulch I think.


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## Woody912 (Mar 6, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Idk what they do with it? (Cottonwood).
> It's no good for firewood, I don't recall it an log trucks? Lots of Aspen though in the north that's mainly OSP. Yesterday they had a big grinder machine and they have to grind all the stumps and maybe the Cottonwood too? It goes for mulch I think.



Around here cottonwood is pallet lumber. Very wet stringy and prone to warp. I would think it could be used for long fiber kraft in areas with a paper mill. High effort low return firewood, for those who love feeding a stove it is great


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## northmanlogging (Mar 6, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Idk what they do with it? (Cottonwood).
> It's no good for firewood, I don't recall it an log trucks? Lots of Aspen though in the north that's mainly for OSB. Yesterday they had a big grinder machine and they have to grind all the stumps and maybe the Cottonwood too? It goes for mulch I think.



If you don't mind dealing with the import export morons, send it Down to Everett wa, They are paying 280 for it, but they are really picky...

Cotton wood kept me going most of the summer, luckily I'm back in Fir and Hemlock again!


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 6, 2016)

Why those picky Cotton pickers.

Maybe one day I'll be in a position to do something like that on a small scale. Cedar is where it's at right now. The price is the highest its ever been. Guy told me the other day he is getting $950 a cord for shakes. Doing Machine assist for merch is not the most glamorous of Falling jobs. A lot more limbing and dirt than what I'm used to but I'm always glad to open up another door. Cutting first growth White wood (Hemlock) is the best. Nice big long pipes with no limbs.


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## bitzer (Mar 6, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Yeah man they are but I'm not doing it.
> I'm the Urban Surgeon now..Haha
> I wish I was that good. Anyway..I am Falling for property development in the Fraser Valley and Vancouver lower mainland. I'm makeing more a day than a production inlet faller. That's because I work with my operator so I work 8 hours at $85 but they get $100 at 6.5 hours I'm right on the border got a beautiful view of MT Baker in WA most every day. It looks a few ft away. WA and BC got bigger sticks than OR & the AK. I'm going to enjoy been in 'town' for a while and that's something I haven't had much of.
> Yesterday was a good one you would have loved. Just one day pretty much all Cotton and about 150 trees and just slamming them when you could. The Hoe brushes out and pushes the rest when you are ready.
> ...



Thanks on the saw! I didn't have time to take a dremel to the cylinder this time, but i did pull the gasket and triple ported the muffler. With an 8 pin its pretty torquey. I can really lean on it. 

I cut the guts(like leaving a strap) on the T style coos so i don't pull too much of the butt wood. Theres kind of a happy medium where it will pull the back of the stump out or it will pull the guts out of the butt. I know what yer sayin about when the ground starts to heave as the stump starts pulling out. Cedar must have pretty sprawling roots? I was in pretty decent sized red oak this week. Lots of downhilling heavy leaners. Quite a few in the 36-40" range. No video tho. Really had to hammer down to get it done. Break up is here. 60 by Tuesday they are talkin.


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## rwoods (Mar 6, 2016)

I am really trying to behave myself and stay out of knucklehead disputes, but I had to respond to this post in the firewood forum:

"*When notching a big oak like that, I like to notch to split. Dont know how to explain, but I use a small face cut and cut slowly on the back cut. I want the tree to self split, sort of barber chair. As soon as the tree starts falling the way I want it to, I just backup and let gravity do the work. It saves a bunch of noodleing and maul swinging trying to split those butt cuts. Might leave a ugly stump with splinters sticking up, but I can take care of those tall strings easier than busting those large rounds.*"

Among other things, I said that a logger is concerned with more than saving a log when employing techniques to prevent barber chairs. Going home at the end of the day still ranks at the top, doesn't it?

Ron


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## Woody912 (Mar 6, 2016)

rwoods said:


> I am really trying to behave myself and stay out of knucklehead disputes, but I had to respond to this post in the firewood forum:
> 
> "*When notching a big oak like that, I like to notch to split. Dont know how to explain, but I use a small face cut and cut slowly on the back cut. I want the tree to self split, sort of barber chair. As soon as the tree starts falling the way I want it to, I just backup and let gravity do the work. It saves a bunch of noodleing and maul swinging trying to split those butt cuts. Might leave a ugly stump with splinters sticking up, but I can take care of those tall strings easier than busting those large rounds.*"
> 
> ...



Wonder if anyone has told him that really good oak is worth $1-3 per board foot? But only unbarbered


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## Gologit (Mar 6, 2016)

rwoods said:


> I am really trying to behave myself and stay out of knucklehead disputes, but I had to respond to this post in the firewood forum:
> 
> "*When notching a big oak like that, I like to notch to split. Dont know how to explain, but I use a small face cut and cut slowly on the back cut. I want the tree to self split, sort of barber chair. As soon as the tree starts falling the way I want it to, I just backup and let gravity do the work. It saves a bunch of noodleing and maul swinging trying to split those butt cuts. Might leave a ugly stump with splinters sticking up, but I can take care of those tall strings easier than busting those large rounds.*"
> 
> ...



I read that post. You gave it a good try, Ron. You tried to help him and he didn't take you up on it. Some people won't ever be convinced that they're doing something stupid until it bites them on the ass.

Some day a a barber chair might fool that guy...slab out on him, split out sideways, break off halfway up, ricochet off another tree, and maybe come down in pieces. I've seen that happen and it happens in the blink of an eye.
Intentionally 'chairing a tree isn't the dumbest thing I've ever heard of but it's damn close.


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## rwoods (Mar 6, 2016)

Funny how he went from saying he uses a small face to a 90 degree face half way into the tree.

I have seen folks timidly fall other species - cut a little, run, look back to see if it fell; if not run in give it a quick stab and repeat until it falls. 

I have cut a few red oaks. I believe he may actually be describing an unintended result as if it were intentional. If not, he has been most fortunate.

Bitzer also hit the nail on the head - what is he going to do when his split tree doesn't fall?

Ron


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## Slingblade (Mar 6, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


>



Cool cutter


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## Cedarkerf (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> If you don't mind dealing with the import export morons, send it Down to Everett wa, They are paying 280 for it, but they are really picky...
> 
> Cotton wood kept me going most of the summer, luckily I'm back in Fir and Hemlock again!


Down here ( 50 miles south) Mills say they accept Cotton wood but at no value. Ive got a friend wants about 5 acres worth taken down.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 7, 2016)

Slingblade said:


> Cool cutter


 hi, Wow! I'm glad to see you out of P&R. Who won the game over there? Did you make any sammiches?..lol
Just tell 'em you got a computer in your kitchen too? That will kinda take the wind out of their sail. I probably should just come over and help. Ha-ha. (Help who EH) yeah no the title of the thread was actually not about reverse cowgirl, I know it gets confusing. So you came out to check out our medial aSSpects, *we just got perved* No No, of course it's the book and poetry conversation.. Right! I'm a little obtuse, forgive me. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduced a real poet, Mrs B. . XOXO


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## Slingblade (Mar 7, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> hi, Wow! I'm glad to see you out of P&R. Who won the game over there? Did you make any sammiches?..lol
> Just tell 'em you got a computer in your kitchen too? That will kinda take the wind out of there sail. I probably should just come over and help. Ha-ha. (Help who EH) yeah no the title of the thread was actually not about reverse cowgirl, I know it gets confusing. So you came out to check out our medial aSSpects, *we just got perved* No No, of course it's the book and poetry conversation.. Right! I'm a little obtuse, forgive me. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduced a real poet, Mrs B. . XOXO


You being obtuse is what started the whole thing!...lmao!!...And good afternoon to you too, Mr. B...


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 7, 2016)

Slingblade said:


> You being obtuse is what started the whole thing!...lmao!!...And good afternoon to you too, Mr. B...



Touché.. *silence*..nobody ever accused me of been normal. *Laugh's it off*

"Lovely to see you again my friend"
A Moody Blues song, and how would I know that? My convent Mother's gal pal Marie married Justin Hayward. She went out with George Harrison for a while too..
What a life, getting your knuckles strapped for spelling something wrong then going to the Cavern to see the Beatles on your lunch hour. Love me do, '62 . Small town chit. My dad always says "And your Mother just married for good looks" Lol. I was on my way to see the Stone's in '89 and my Dad was giving me a hard time saying " why do you want to see a bunch of old men for?..we would see then on a Saturday night in their prime" shitty part about it was I had a strict upbringing.. I'm not sure if it took though?


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## Bwildered (Mar 7, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> I'm makeing more a day than a production inlet faller. That's because I work with my operator so I work 8 hours at $85
> w


Crikey! thats pretty poor money, even more so if you're supplying fuel & saws.
Thansk


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 7, 2016)

$85 an hour for a chain saw?
I'd like to say ",that's subjective but I think it dosent get more experience than Canada. I guess it's still subjective regardless. That's $680 per day. Do you think I should quit? .. And then what? Do you think I will make more ?what


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## Bwildered (Mar 7, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> $85 an hour for a chain saw?
> I'd like to say ",that's subject, but I think it dosent get more experience than Canada. I guess it's still subjective regardless. That's $680 per day. Do you think I should quit? .. And then what? Do you think I will make more ?what


With the way you wrote it seemed like it was for $85 a day, I thought it couldn't be possible but then again some really love what they do & maybe it was.
Thansk


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## northmanlogging (Mar 7, 2016)

Cedarkerf said:


> Down here ( 50 miles south) Mills say they accept Cotton wood but at no value. Ive got a friend wants about 5 acres worth taken down.



I think the only place still running down there is Manke anyway, formark opened their new yard up, but its a little farther north then it used to be....

Anyway, it could be worth while to maybe have them trucked up north? Though in the end I don't give much of a percentage on Cotton timber, 10-15% or sometimes less... Need to make a certain amount per load or its just not worth it, even then its break even wages.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 8, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> With the way you wrote it seemed like it was for $85 a day, I thought it couldn't be possible but then again some really love what they do & maybe it was.
> Thansk


Right,I definitely have a passion for the act of cutting as many do and that has to be the ONLY reason to be in it. We have a saying and that is; "IF you are just here for the money you are going to get hurt.
As I say " the ACT" (activity) I like but there is a lot of BS that goes along with it that can really burn you out. BC is an acronym for 'Bring cash'. You will never get rich at it here. There is down time to think about. You have to buy & sell wood or have a tree company too. I just hooked up with a young climber. We did a job together this past weekend that went well. We are going 50/50 and eventually he can leave his job. Even if we hire other climbers for a while to get things rolling in the week. Of course we will be limited for a while as to what we can bid. The residential rates are dam good, much more than I could get as just a Faller, also in demand.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 8, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> I think the only place still running down there is Manke anyway, formark opened their new yard up, but its a little farther north then it used to be....
> 
> Anyway, it could be worth while to maybe have them trucked up north? Though in the end I don't give much of a percentage on Cotton timber, 10-15% or sometimes less... Need to make a certain amount per load or its just not worth it, even then its break even wages.


We say here that " there are no stupid questions in industry " or The only stupid question is the question that was never asked" So excuse my ignorance and here it goes. What do you mean 280 ? 280 a load? I do have a friend that has three trucks and can't work his woodlot untill Jan 1 2017. It's a good time to do business with our low dollar. Import/export is a simple add on to your BN #


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## bitzer (Mar 8, 2016)

280 per thousand. Thats the low end of the hardwood spectrum here. After cutting and trucking theres nothing left. Cutting/skidding your own timber you should get aleast 150 per mbf and trucking is about the same. If the landowner gets a cut of your 150 then you're not making much.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 8, 2016)

The coos triangle works pretty good ,i tried to see if these would chair letting them go over slow and not chasing the back cut ,all it did was pull the guts out .Alders with a lean about 25-30 degrees .Did not think to take the pics till after the limbs were cleaned up .One of the trees did crack slightly doing this ,chasing it it would not have though ,it went over super slow .


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 8, 2016)

Ok thanks, Google filed in the rest. Right so 83 cubic ft to 1000. S0 that's a cunit right?

2.8 cubic metres to the cunit
about 40 cubic metres per truck
15 cunits probably × 280 = $4200 + 25 % exchange. Maybe make three loads a day.
Ivor gets about 1200 per day running his truck. IDK...I'm starting to like free trade...lol Of course northman is in there.
Actually if they are grinding them then they would load you and pay you I figure. Not all have a $million grinder plus they break a lot and they need them for stump disposal.

*EDIT. No that's .83 of a cunit. So a cunit is 100 cubic ft or 1200 mbf


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 8, 2016)

It would just be trucking, I would get my rate to cut it in cases, definitely some red tape to get through. The money definitely works with out a doubt.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 8, 2016)

bitzer said:


> 280 per thousand. Thats the low end of the hardwood spectrum here. After cutting and trucking theres nothing left. Cutting/skidding your own timber you should get aleast 150 per mbf and trucking is about the same. If the landowner gets a cut of your 150 then you're not making much.



I don't mean to confuse you in regards to 'day job talk, 'Res work' Just to clarify, I would be Falling for the lanf clearing contractor and if, as it looks in the the case of Cottonwood, there isn't a market here so therefore unless the developer or private owner has a market then its just an expense to them just like grinding stumps. It is cheaper for the prime contractor to pay a little for you to get it off their plate I figure. It would have been figured in on their bid as an expense anyway.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 8, 2016)

bitz is correct 280 per 1k board feet, about 5k per truck so $1400 yankee money a truck, truck gets 2-400 around heres depending on how far he's got to go, you loose about a thousand board feet per load if you use a self loader though.

So all said and done I can usually get a load a day in cotton timber, if its relatively clear to fall, not much limbing to speak of and fairly straight forward skidding. on average I can clear 600 a day with the cotton wood, not much but its keeping the bills paid lately. 

with the evergreens they take some more work with the limbing and what not, and tend to be a little smaller dia so it takes more trees to make a load, my fat butt can get a load every 2 days or so, more in better wood i.e. taller less limbs, but then I only get 40-60% on those so it still ends up being around 600 a day or so, sometimes better... especially if there is cedar involved.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 8, 2016)

the problem lately has been weather, between wind, rain, and no freeze it makes it hard to fall trees, then its hard to move logs...

Like I said earlier the next job is mostly Fir and Hemlock with a couple cedars and a maybe a big spruce and its on flat ground with short skids should be a little bit easier job... hell the next one is nearly identical... just bigger better wood.


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## bitzer (Mar 8, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> I don't mean to confuse you in regards to 'day job talk, 'Res work' Just to clarify, I would be Falling for the lanf clearing contractor and if, as it looks in the the case of Cottonwood, there isn't a market here so therefore unless the developer or private owner has a market then its just an expense to them just like grinding stumps. It is cheaper for the prime contractor to pay a little for you to get it off their plate I figure. It would have been figured in on their bid as an expense anyway.


I didn't mean you personally. I meant you as in any logger in general. I'm sure that on a clearing job like that the chipping is just expensed out as it would be here.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 9, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> bitz is correct 280 per 1k board feet, about 5k per truck so $1400 yankee money a truck, truck gets 2-400 around heres depending on how far he's got to go, you loose about a thousand board feet per load if you use a self loader though.
> 
> So all said and done I can usually get a load a day in cotton timber, if its relatively clear to fall, not much limbing to speak of and fairly straight forward skidding. on average I can clear 600 a day with the cotton wood, not much but its keeping the bills paid lately.
> 
> with the evergreens they take some more work with the limbing and what not, and tend to be a little smaller dia so it takes more trees to make a load, my fat butt can get a load every 2 days or so, more in better wood i.e. taller less limbs, but then I only get 40-60% on those so it still ends up being around 600 a day or so, sometimes better... especially if there is cedar involved.


 OK was thinking a cunit was 1000 mbf but it is 1200 or 100 cu ft. So add 200 more mbf X 15 cunits and that's $280 X 3 = $840 + my initial $ 4200 figure. = $5040.00.
What did you say, $5000, I concur, that was pretty close figuring


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## bitzer (Mar 9, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> OK was thinking a cunit was 1000 mbf but it is 1200 or 100 cubic. So add 200 more mbf X 15 cunits and that's $280 X 3 = $840 + my initial $ 4200 figure. = $5040.00.
> What did you say, $5000, I concur, that was pretty close figuring


So when you guys bushel up there its not in board feet?


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 9, 2016)

bitzer said:


> So when you guys bushel up there its not in board feet?


Everything here is in cubic meters,
The contract is bid on cubic meters.
They are on Turn-key and we bushel for job security and pride in probuction Falling not more money. If it's a tough job with lots of snags and cul they may bid it for each Faller on an average to cut 40 cubic metres per day. We know 40 cubic meters fills a HWY truck. In Alaska with Columbia helicopters the big scale was measured in cunits (1200 bf /100cu ft) When you bushel for your bid and you are the only cutter then you have to make that minimum on an average. If you are in chity wood as a crew, some won't even make the 40 cu metres but the next guy could get a rough calculation of 160 cu metres. We use cu ft with the smaller sticks and when we get 35 cu ft, that's a cubic metre. If I graded a 41ft and it's 14" and 10" at the top then that's a cu metres roughly.


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## 1270d (Mar 9, 2016)

My machine calculates everything in cubes. Our wood works out very close to 1 m³ per ton and I use 2.4 m³/cord as a conversion for scale. 
The measurement reports are used mostly to make sure the wood that is cut is getting to market under our contracts, not someone else's.


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## Skeans (Mar 9, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> the problem lately has been weather, between wind, rain, and no freeze it makes it hard to fall trees, then its hard to move logs...
> 
> Like I said earlier the next job is mostly Fir and Hemlock with a couple cedars and a maybe a big spruce and its on flat ground with short skids should be a little bit easier job... hell the next one is nearly identical... just bigger better wood.


I know if we were on a job right now with how wet it is we'd be shut down its just too damn wet, it's a great time to get all the maintenance caught up and work on getting all the extra hydraulic pipes fixed up. If it keeps it up we'll all need row boat here soon, don't know about you guys but I'm sick of this rain.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## bitzer (Mar 9, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Everything here is in cubic meters,
> The contract is bid on cubic meters.
> They are on Turn-key and we bushel for job security and pride in probuction Falling not more money. If it's a tough job with lots of snags and cul they may bid it for each Faller on an average to cut 40 cubic metres per day. We know 40 cubic meters fills a HWY truck. In Alaska with Columbia helicopters the big scale was measured in cunits (1200 bf /100cu ft) When you bushel for your bid and you are the only cutter then you have to make that minimum on an average. If you are in chity wood as a crew, some won't even make the 40 cu metres but the next guy could get a rough calculation of 160 cu metres. We use cu ft with the smaller sticks and when we get 35 cu ft, that's a cubic metre. If I graded a 41ft and it's 14" and 10" at the top then that's a cu metres roughly.


Yeah i guess why wouldn't it be metric? Guess I didn't really think that thru before i asked.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm a little bit young as I was twelve when the metric system came to Canadastan lol
I remember been in the mill at 18 and I bet you bf is still used today. Pounds ,ft & oz, are not going away anytime soon. I buy as many standard wrenches as I do metric. and I'd never say my **** is 30cm
because that would be a lie.. Ha-ha..you get the picture. Metric can break down better on a tape measure or calculator as In finish carpentry. Works well in Falling, I thought a cunit was metric and wonder why Alaska was using metric. It just sounds metric. It's just a 100 cubes though. I couldnt get my brain to think mbf and give a rough scale as I go? Just moving the 0 in you head I guess. IDK..


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