# Discovery channel's "extreme logging"



## 056 kid (Nov 11, 2008)

It is getting ready to premier 10:00 pm eastern standard. Any one watchin?


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## forestryworks (Nov 11, 2008)

hmmm... just turned on the tv and saw the listing... tonight's episode is swamp logging

didn't a guy on here do a similar thread on it?

if i remember he got rained out
can't remember his name
he went to LSU i think

edit: did a little more research on the show

swamp logging 11/11
mule logging 11/18
helicopter logging 11/25

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/news/article.asp?docKey=600-200811110526KRTRIB__BUSNEWS_26787-3SQ85LJQ6IG6MGRTI3H9ONKNEI&params=timestamp||11/11/2008%205:26%20AM%20ET||headline||BRIEF%3A%20%27Extreme%20Loggers%2C%27%20filmed%20near%20Stedman%2C%20to%20air%20[The%20Fayetteville%20Observer%2C%20N.C.]||docSource||Knight%20Ridder/Tribune||provider||ACQUIREMEDIA


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 12, 2008)

Waiting for the 11 pm (here) show now. Jusst happened to see it in the sched. Hadn't seen/heard anything about it.

I hope it is a whole lot better than Axmen.

Harry K


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## Jacob J. (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't have TV so of course I won't be watching this. I will be depending on you guys for a description of what goes on. Hopefully this show will be more of a documentary type rather than a 'docu-drama' like that extreme jobs show was.:censored:


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## 2dogs (Nov 12, 2008)

My son and I watched EL tonight. It wasn't bad, I think it was nareted by the guy from "Gangland". I kept waiting to see some guy talk with his face scrambled.

It was over dramatic but that is what sells. If the show took place in Collyfornia there would be more protesters tha loggers. When the oil hit the ground the county would be writing thousands of dollars in fines before anyone could even grab the spill kit.

I won't get to see the show on mule logging next Friday, darn it all.


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## tomtrees58 (Nov 12, 2008)

excellent it blows ax men away tom treesopcorn:


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## 056 kid (Nov 12, 2008)

I thought it was funny when the boss man was talking about his dozer. My boss is the same way, when he is pissed he goes and fools around on his D-5..


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## mantis (Nov 12, 2008)

CRAP! I forgot all about it.How was it?


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## Lee Bradley (Nov 12, 2008)

Good show. Boss is extremely fond of his 750 dozer. The manufacture's name was blurred out; guess JD wouldn't come up with money or permission.
The boss gave a nice overview, of how they cut and built the road, with sticks stuck in the ground. Good thing about the writing was you didn't hear that someone was inches from death every other line. One of their machines broke a track and they showed the crew repairing it. Boss's son admitted it broke because they were trying to run it longer than they should have but money is tight. Boss ran one of the skidders, when the operator had a court date, and the crew had a good time with the rookie operator. He was getting bounced around pretty good; you get rusty in a hurry and he hadn't been on a skidder in a couple of years. Overall a good show about a very specialized type of logging.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 12, 2008)

Not bad at all. Seeing the equipment and techniques used to log in a mud pit was educational. That the mills would accept logs that had been used to corduroy a road through a bog was a surprise. I had been wondering what they would do with the 'road trees' when they were done.

Watching them extract those machines when they were stuck was "interesting" as was the 'stump toss' at the end.

Harry K


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## 056 kid (Nov 12, 2008)

The only bad part was..





No power saw action


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Nov 12, 2008)

The fact that they didn't say anything about BMP's or anything environmental related was a real short coming. Showing the oil leak all over the mud and didn't even mention or show them cleaning it up. Showed ruts and soil damage that many find disgusting. Looks like good ammunition for tree huggers to use.


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## 2dogs (Nov 12, 2008)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> The fact that they didn't say anything about BMP's or anything environmental related was a real short coming. Showing the oil leak all over the mud and didn't even mention or show them cleaning it up. Showed ruts and soil damage that many find disgusting. Looks like good ammunition for tree huggers to use.



Yeah. I guess cleanup isn't too exciting.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Nov 12, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Yeah. I guess cleanup isn't too exciting.



But they should at least mention it. I'm guessing that crew didn't clean anything up, but they should have at least done it this once to make logging look better in peoples eyes. 

If somebody were to watch that and see oil all over seeping into the ground they immediately get a bad image in their mind of "logging" and "loggers".


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## 2dogs (Nov 12, 2008)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> But they should at least mention it. I'm guessing that crew didn't clean anything up, but they should have at least done it this once to make logging look better in peoples eyes.
> 
> If somebody were to watch that and see oil all over seeping into the ground they immediately get a bad image in their mind of "logging" and "loggers".



Yep.


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## kkottemann (Nov 13, 2008)

forestryworks, 
its kkottemann. Yea i do a bit of logging in the swamp (bottomland hardwoods). Always getting rained out. sitting at home now because of rain! I watched a little of show, it looked good. I did not catch where they were, somewhere in the south i'll bet. I guess every state has what it classifies as a swamp. That looked like a bog of some sort. I work in the Atchafalaya basin which covers the entire south central portion of louisiana. I got forestry degree from LSU. Owner of kottemann tree & timber services. I do not have a full time logging crew, but buy timber and do have contracts to do tree work for the state office of forestry and one timber company. About once a month I get contracted by a logging contractor to fell large trees on harvest sites which are too big for the fellerbunchers. We call it bottomland hardwood not a swamp. when to going gets rough down here we use tracked loaders and pre-haulers. a few contractors have the tracked skidders, in my opinion thats the way to go, but it is slow and not very productive. We have a contracter down here that can move 40 loads a day. he has 4 tracked cutters, 8 skidders (2 tracked), 3 tracked loaders, 2 pre-haulers, 2 dozers, 2 road graders, and 17 trucks. we need to set this guy up on at least 500 acres and get the hell out of his way! they all speak cajun french. anyway, looking forward to the mule logging.


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## Zodiac45 (Nov 13, 2008)

I want too see next weeks episode on Donkey logging. The guy I went firewooding with for the last 10yrs worked in the woods with draft horses in the pre skidder days. He told me allot of stories about it and the log drives down the local river here that ended in about 1970.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 13, 2008)

i know people who still log now with horses and can keep up well with skidders, obviously they cant pull the same ammount at a time but they produce enough wood to keep themselves fed at the end of the day.


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## windthrown (Nov 13, 2008)

Swamp logging was interesting. The show is toned down and not as synthetically sensasionalized as Ax Men was, which is good. No showing off and doing stupid stuff for the camera. It was all work and no BS. Considering the problems with the mill, the cat track failing and the skidders er, skidding, one would have to say they did a good job with what they had to break even. They also seemed dumb from their Cajun English at first but after seeing them work the way they do, they are no dummies. 

Amusing too, I have never seen that kind of logging before. Here its mostly cable yarding on steep slopes, and some mechanical harvesting on flat areas. Here we also harvest a few species, and mostly doug fir. Some hemlock and some cedar and some pine, but mainly doug. They had a lot of mixed species and they had to sort and cut them and load them accordingly. 

Ax Men has a new series coming out this year as well. I presume that it will be more of the same though. Yahoos with jury-rigged equipment and faked up competition between teams that have little or nothing to do with each other. And some weird logging tricks that I have never seen done here. Actually all the logging jobs that I have seen done here were all pretty slick (pun intended) with few problems. Trees cut in sections, yarding cables laid out, yarders set up, logs dragged to the decks, stacked, and loaded onto trucks and hauled off to the mills. But that would be too boring for a show like Ax men.


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## Burvol (Nov 13, 2008)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> But they should at least mention it. I'm guessing that crew didn't clean anything up, but they should have at least done it this once to make logging look better in peoples eyes.
> 
> If somebody were to watch that and see oil all over seeping into the ground they immediately get a bad image in their mind of "logging" and "loggers".



If you ever follow a shovel, processor, or a buncher (even lower hours), you'll find an oil spill, I gurantee it!


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## LEES WOODC (Nov 13, 2008)

Most if not all hydro oil today is biodegradable. No worries.


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## slowp (Nov 14, 2008)

I stumbled upon the old trick of throwing the five gallon bucket, one full of something, over the bank. He had quite a ways to pack it out because they'd closed the road. I figured that was good punishment. I am one who will check for that. I haven't figured out a way to see inside the slash piles though. At least they don't change the yarder oil up on the landing and let it spew all over like they used to--that was nasty.


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## Zodiac45 (Nov 14, 2008)

Burvol said:


> If you ever follow a shovel, processor, or a buncher (even lower hours), you'll find an oil spill, I gurantee it!



No bout a doubt it. I run a year old Deere F/B and every morning she takes oil. The old Chipzilla eats it by the bucket daily.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Nov 14, 2008)

Burvol said:


> If you ever follow a shovel, processor, or a buncher (even lower hours), you'll find an oil spill, I gurantee it!



O trust me i know they leak. My point being that isn't something that should be spotlighted on national TV. So now instead of it being just kind of a trade secret its common knowledge to every tree hugging environmentalist out there. 

IMO they should have just showed them cleaning it up so that they look environmentally conscious, even if they have never cleaned a spill up in their lives.


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## barkies (Nov 14, 2008)

I hope the mule logging isn't the same group they used for Dirty Jobs. 


Those were some ornery ba:censored: s


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## forestryworks (Nov 14, 2008)

windthrown said:


> Ax Men has a new series coming out this year as well. I presume that it will be more of the same though. Yahoos with jury-rigged equipment and faked up competition between teams that have little or nothing to do with each other. And some weird logging tricks that I have never seen done here. Actually all the logging jobs that I have seen done here were all pretty slick (pun intended) with few problems. Trees cut in sections, yarding cables laid out, yarders set up, logs dragged to the decks, stacked, and loaded onto trucks and hauled off to the mills. But that would be too boring for a show like Ax men.



from what i've read online of interviews with the companies in the show... season 2 of Ax Men will be a little more in depth than last season - not just falling and yarding and choker setting, but also showing the process of getting it to the mill and what happens once it's in the mills


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## slowp (Nov 15, 2008)

The helicopter loggers said the interviews they went through were full of questions like, "Who is the best at ----------?" The loggers were uncomfortable in answering those questions for a tv show. I think that attitude shows good manners--of the loggers.


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## KRS (Nov 18, 2008)

Tonight Mule Logging episode was okay; some saw action !

Seeing that young man skid and load logs with mules was pretty cool. I know that OSHA doesn't have much bearing in the woods but some of that stuff with the mules looked extrememly dangerous.

Overall an enjoyable episode. But what was with the boss saying he can't ask the employee why he didn't show up for work yesterday because the employee would get upset and stop working????????????????????? :jawdrop:


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## Backwoods (Nov 19, 2008)

Heck I need to get me a catapult for my truck then I can through heavy logs over my head, and hope they land on the truck. Then blow it with a par-buckle. The mules are tame compared to the truck.


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## 056 kid (Nov 19, 2008)

I caught it about 30 minuts in. When the red oak got stuck in the ash. It "grazed the camera man's sholder" same dumb crap as ax-men..


How did ya'll like them boys notches? thats the way aLOT of folks do it around here.


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## 2dogs (Nov 19, 2008)

Ground skidding with horses (and mules) means you best be on your toes. Horses can move fast over ground a man has trouble walking on. You always have to keep up with the horses. Learning how to drive those mules means you are going to take some lumps.

The truck action was nuts! I have never seen anything like that.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 19, 2008)

that truck looks like something i might think up, bare minimum just gets the job done, plus im too cheap to do things the right way most of the time. 
Although it looked like the chaps they had on were awfully new, possibly they made them wear them so that i looked good for the TV show. 
BTW did anyone else think that the way they were cutting the trees down was strange, they left some pretty awful looking stumps in there.


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## 2dogs (Nov 19, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> that truck looks like something i might think up, bare minimum just gets the job done, plus im too cheap to do things the right way most of the time.
> Although it looked like the chaps they had on were awfully new, possibly they made them wear them so that i looked good for the TV show.
> BTW did anyone else think that the way they were cutting the trees down was strange, they left some pretty awful looking stumps in there.



The episode was all about the mules. Getting the trees on the ground didn't seem to interest the producers much until the hang up. The stumps were pretty ugly but they got the job done.


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## stihl 440 (Nov 19, 2008)

2dogs said:


> The episode was all about the mules. Getting the trees on the ground didn't seem to interest the producers much until the hang up. The stumps were pretty ugly but they got the job done.



Them guys didn't know WTF they where doing, cuttin'......they are gonna get someone killed doin' that kinda chit in the woods... Who seen the mismatch on the notch? I did. And do you think there where any hinges on those trees? No there wasn't.... The're gonna get hurt.....I've seen it happen, way too many times to not know.....they don't have a F^%kin clue what they're doin'.... Them stumps where horrible...... I could go on but I won't.......:monkey:


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Nov 19, 2008)

I really enjoyed watching him cut the hanger out. Standing underneath the hanger cutting the tree with pressure. 

My girlfriend can cut a stump that looks better than those. 

But it was good to watch.


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## redprospector (Nov 19, 2008)

I caught a late night re-run (paid for it this morning).
That catapult loader was hilarious. I work on my old stuff enough without catapulting a 12' log over the bunks to load it. 
It was pretty interesting though. I've never done any "mule logging", but I'm pretty sure I could have got my little JD 440 in there.

Andy


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 19, 2008)

i can only imagine how many sets of shocks and leaf springs they go through in a year. It looked like slapping those big oak logs onto the truck was doing some bad stuff. i liked when they showed some shots of logs with cuts going in every direction from where the felled the tree, they bored in on almost every side of the tree on some of them. I also liked when they just handed the new guy the saw and said cut this tree down.


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## stihl 440 (Nov 19, 2008)

*lol*



Zackman1801 said:


> i can only imagine how many sets of shocks and leaf springs they go through in a year. It looked like slapping those big oak logs onto the truck was doing some bad stuff. i liked when they showed some shots of logs with cuts going in every direction from where the felled the tree, they bored in on almost every side of the tree on some of them. I also liked when they just handed the new guy the saw and said cut this tree down.



LOL.......but the thing of it is....that new guy still knows as much about cutting trees as he did BEFORE he even cut the tree.....them guys aren't teaching him anything....that's for sure.... And they also need taught how to file a chain......their chains didn't cut for chit..... Hey....nobody knows it all....but you gotta atleast know something in the woods to stay alive......them guys know nothing about cutting trees.....


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## Hounddog (Nov 19, 2008)

I guess all of yaw expect these boys to be perfect. The only stump I saw that looked bad was the one the greenhorn cut and I know it looked better than a lot of other folks' first cut.

As for the truck, it has got to be paid for and it doubles as a loader! Looks like to me these boys got it figured out. The only payment I can see in their equipment is feed for them asses. Practically no overhead at all! Who in their right mind would worry about shocks on a log truck anyway. Ever heard the saying "that thing rides like a log truck".


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## redprospector (Nov 19, 2008)

Hounddog said:


> I guess all of yaw expect these boys to be perfect. The only stump I saw that looked bad was the one the greenhorn cut and I know it looked better than a lot of other folks' first cut.
> 
> As for the truck, it has got to be paid for and it doubles as a loader! Looks like to me these boys got it figured out. The only payment I can see in their equipment is feed for them asses. Practically no overhead at all! Who in their right mind would worry about shocks on a log truck anyway. Ever heard the saying "that thing rides like a log truck".



Shoot, I don't even worry about shock's on my pickup. But I'd be willing to bet that with that "log chunker" them boy's own a welder. 
Yep, them boy's gotter figured out. I don't have any payment's either, but I ain't tossing 12' log's through the air to load the truck either. Not that it didn't work, I just found it comical.

Andy


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## forestryworks (Nov 19, 2008)

Hounddog said:


> I guess all of yaw expect these boys to be perfect. The only stump I saw that looked bad was the one the greenhorn cut and I know it looked better than a lot of other folks' first cut.
> 
> As for the truck, it has got to be paid for and it doubles as a loader! Looks like to me these boys got it figured out. The only payment I can see in their equipment is feed for them asses. Practically no overhead at all! Who in their right mind would worry about shocks on a log truck anyway. Ever heard the saying "that thing rides like a log truck".



being from TN and the above being your first post... part of the crew? a friend of the crew?


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## windthrown (Nov 20, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> BTW did anyone else think that the way they were cutting the trees down was strange, they left some pretty awful looking stumps in there.



Well, some of the falling methods were downright suicidal. I agree with the owner that he would never drop a tree that had a leaner on it. I would have dragged the butt of the tree out to drop it with chains and the mules. Trying to drop it with the red oak that far away was folly, and the result was almost comical. Never mind cutting the double prop trees. Pretty bass ackwards. Made our 2 person operation with a Kubota and a Polaris look real upscale. And the butts of the trees at the mill... man, 18 angles of cuts? They would laugh you off the mill lot here, and charge you to make a cleaner cut. 

As for select harvesting, that is about the worst kind of logging that you can do. Taking the best and leaving the crap... the stand will decline, and the crappy trees will reproduce. Evolution in reverse. Better off to clear cut, which they were bashing. Seems like more of the Ax-Men type stuff, indeed. Horse logging is only done by a few people any more out here. The 85 acre stand that I managed was horse logged in the 1970's, and the damange done from the horses compacting the soil was still evident 30 years later. Tire ruts recover better. Modern lightfoot equipment is far better still. 

Anyone see a single wedge being used?


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 20, 2008)

stihl 440 said:


> Them guys didn't know WTF they where doing, cuttin'......they are gonna get someone killed doin' that kinda chit in the woods... Who seen the mismatch on the notch? I did. And do you think there where any hinges on those trees? No there wasn't.... The're gonna get hurt.....I've seen it happen, way too many times to not know.....they don't have a F^%kin clue what they're doin'.... Them stumps where horrible...... I could go on but I won't.......:monkey:



That mismatch was done by teh greenhorn. Supposedly the first tree he fell. I saw the angled cut as soon as he began it...mostly because it is also a bad habit of mine.

Harry K


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 20, 2008)

yeah sometimes i get my face cuts a bit uneven but only an inch or so sometimes a few, but not 7-8, that cut was way uneven.


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## 056 kid (Nov 20, 2008)

The way thoes fellas where falling is an old timer east coast method. Pretty much to get the tree separated from the stump without tearing up the log. Not much emphasis in falling direction. I dont like this method AT ALL but have seen some very big trees cut using it..


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## windthrown (Nov 20, 2008)

I thought that is why I should use the Humbolt cut? Of course, I also use wedges. And I have a direction in mind when I fall a tree. Not that they always go that way, or do not get hung up in the canopy.


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## slowp (Nov 20, 2008)

*Discussion on the Landing Today*

Here's the conversation, after those of us with only hardhats for protection briskly moved out of the timber and onto the landing--a frontal system went through with some pretty nasty winds.

Faller to me, "My saw won't run. I might have to see if you'll let me use Twinkle."

My reply. "Twinkle has the original handle on it and wouldn't do for you."

Boss. "Those old boys on that Extreme Logging were using the same handle as you have. So don't be using that for an excuse." 

The faller's saw problem was fixed when he noticed the spark plug had come loose. 

I'm not sure I like the effects that show has out in the woods. The wind died down and those of us left could get back up the hill.


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## jburlingham (Nov 20, 2008)

*Extream logging*

It is an awesome show, I can't saw better axemen, because its a different type of show. But fantastic. I liked the swamp logging but the Mule logging was really great!!!!!!


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## windthrown (Nov 20, 2008)

The bomb? 

Welcome to AS, maybe...


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## Hounddog (Nov 20, 2008)

I'm sure there are a lot of loggers out there that are better

better at cutting
better at filing
better at loading
better at handling mules
better looking (I would hope so anyway)

they also have better equipment like faster saws and stouter trucks

all I can say is that we get the job done and we is on the TV BIT:censored: ES!!!


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## jburlingham (Nov 20, 2008)

windthrown said:


> The bomb?
> 
> Welcome to AS, maybe...



Thanks, I was just really impressed to see some guys doing it old school. 


I also changed my sentance structure for you.


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## Tree Sling'r (Nov 20, 2008)

Obviously wedges were not nessecary, if they would have been they would have filmed the situation.
I say give these guy's a break, just making a living. Seemed like good fella's. Maybe not what you or I do, but there sure seem to be a lot of comments from people who are better. Funny how that is.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 20, 2008)

i dont mind that they cut badly at all, they seemed like really great guys though, i hate it when guys get on tv and parade around like they are gods gift and rant and rave in the their tough west coast logging language using fancy words and such and then when it comes time to start the saw we really see how good they are 
these guys didnt do any of that they just went in, cut trees got them to the landing and went home. they didnt talk about how well they knew how to fall, they didnt say that they were better than anyone else at anything either.


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## windthrown (Nov 21, 2008)

jburlingham said:


> Thanks, I was just really impressed to see some guys doing it old school.
> 
> 
> I also changed my sentance structure for you.



No need to, I understand what _the bomb _means (I have a 22 year old niece). 

I was referring to the show/cutting quality with my question mark.


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## windthrown (Nov 21, 2008)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Obviously wedges were not nessecary, if they would have been they would have filmed the situation.
> I say give these guy's a break, just making a living. Seemed like good fella's. Maybe not what you or I do, but there sure seem to be a lot of comments from people who are better. Funny how that is.



Well, they may be good fella's and all, but I hate to see bad methods and judgement shown on TV. Its gives people bad examples and ideas.


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## Gologit (Nov 21, 2008)

windthrown said:


> Well, they may be good fella's and all, but I hate to see bad methods and judgement shown on TV. Its gives people bad examples and ideas.



So does the six o'clock news.


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## hammerlogging (Nov 21, 2008)

forestryworks, ever think about being a detective?


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## John D (Nov 21, 2008)

How about the power of those mules! Im not sure i'd want to be doing that job,the mules seem to unpredictable when pulling. If they got spooked,I could imagine the carnage. I am amazed at the power the mules have.I have never seen them pull anything before,now i know how the old school woodsmen must have done it hundreds of yrs ago. Also got a laugh out of the Ford log truck,it looked way overloaded,had about 10 -12 2500+ lb logs on it ,very high center of gravity,gotta be careful on turns with it.No way it was over a 33K GVWR truck.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Nov 21, 2008)

Hounddog said:


> they also have better equipment like faster saws



Fast saws has nothing to do with nice proper safe stump cuts. A good cutter could use a 260 with an 16" bar and cut those trees from both sides. It might take a while but it will get to the ground safer, and have proper cuts. 

In this neck of the woods the mills would dock the logs down in price because have to recut the stumps. And i would be embarrassed to drop them off.


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## forestryworks (Nov 21, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> forestryworks, ever think about being a detective?



ever think about being an investigative journalist? :greenchainsaw:


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## slowp (Nov 25, 2008)

Here's what I'm learning:

There is always a "greenhorn" on tv.
The sun always shines.
The Greenhorn must prove himself.
There are no log truck drivers.
Am I missing anything?

Real life:

Nobody wants to hire a greenhorn.
It is pricipitating, or hot and dusty.
The log truck drivers will tell how everything has been done and how it should be done, and what is going to happen.


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## forestryworks (Nov 26, 2008)

slowp said:


> Here's what I'm learning:
> 
> There is always a "greenhorn" on tv.
> The sun always shines.
> ...



or 1 in 23 will hire a greenhorn... that's been my experience in calling that many... but given the current economic situation, it goes without saying?


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 26, 2008)

Waiting now for this week's episode "Helicopter Logging" - 11 pm here. It was on earlier but conflicted with wife's shows.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 26, 2008)

WTH!! Have definitions changed? Show opened witht he blurb "Vancouver Islands forests are full of valuable hardwoods, Cedar and Hemlock..." 

Called Cedar a hardwood later in the show again.

Anyhow it was interesting. Showed some falling of big sticks but not in the detail I would have preferred. Also showed ripping big cedar logs and the rate the chips piled up were impressive to say the least. Guessing at the saws they were using but 880? 

Crew boss seems to be a bit quick on the trigger on deciding whether a newbie will work out.

Harry K


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## arhillbilly (Nov 26, 2008)

yeah, i caught that too, always that cedar was softwood:jawdrop:


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## STEVEGODSEYJR (Nov 26, 2008)

Guessing at the saws they were using but 880? 

I thought they looked like big huskys...but I have been wrong before:greenchainsaw:


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## slowp (Nov 26, 2008)

turnkey4099 said:


> WTH!! Have definitions changed? Show opened witht he blurb "Vancouver Islands forests are full of valuable hardwoods, Cedar and Hemlock..."
> 
> Called Cedar a hardwood later in the show again.
> 
> ...



That guy was a lot like the Type A+ guy up here who ran the helicopter business. They have to be that way because they have major expenses...major. I had a few "discussions" with him. The Northwest Forest Plan does not make changing locations of landings a quick thing to do. In fact it makes it a month*s* long process if one is to be located outside the area that has been surveyed for all the little critters that we didn't used to know about. So, everybody was frustrated but we managed to make things work. So far.:deadhorse: We'll see how it goes when they return.


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## forestryworks (Nov 26, 2008)

i saw 660's for sure... that cedar is really soft wood so you can run longer than 36"

there is a heli logging show that's on youtube (i'll post the link later) and there's a shot of a guy runnin' a 5ft bar on what looks like a 3120xp


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## Ske-bum (Nov 26, 2008)

*Quick question*

Watching the helicopter edition of exteme logging, at the beginning of the show the type "A" guy said something about having trouble people that want to be timber fallers. Is this a true statement or is it possible he has trouble finding fallers that will work for him?


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## Tree Sling'r (Nov 26, 2008)

Ske-bum said:


> Watching the helicopter edition of exteme logging, at the beginning of the show the type "A" guy said something about having trouble people that want to be timber fallers. Is this a true statement or is it possible he has trouble finding fallers that will work for him?



Nobody wants to do it anymore. Hard to find young guys who wanna work.


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## Ske-bum (Nov 26, 2008)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Nobody wants to do it anymore. Hard to find young guys who wanna work.



Yeah, I wondered if that may be the issue, too bad a lot of peole like to go through life lazy and wonder why they can never afford anything. 

Would those guys make a decent living?? They would have cool office at the very least.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 27, 2008)

Ske-bum said:


> Yeah, I wondered if that may be the issue, too bad a lot of peole like to go through life lazy and wonder why they can never afford anything.
> 
> Would those guys make a decent living?? They would have cool office at the very least.



There's a couple of issues there. One of the big issues is finding steady work. Not a problem during fire season if it's a good fire season. Right now there's a lot of cutters out of work. It's not going to pick up anytime soon either. 

Some of the companies I've cut for as an employee have had real problems hiring young guys- the most common being that they turn out to be either potheads or crackheads. A lot of the older guys are getting out of it, that's leaving a vacuum that's not being filled and the experience that's lost is invaluable. 

Another problem (a more modern problem) is that young people either see these shows or hear about these jobs and get excited about them. Once they get out there, the cold, hard reality sets in and they realize that there's a lot of misery to endure and they bail.

My dad started cutting in 1967, and got out of it for good in 1995. He flat out told me to not become a cutter. He saw some hard times when the timber market took serious dumps in '78, '81, and '85.


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## Ske-bum (Nov 27, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> My dad started cutting in 1967, and got out of it for good in 1995. He flat out told me to not become a cutter. He saw some hard times when the timber market took serious dumps in '78, '81, and '85.



Yeah, I lived south of Seattle out in Enumclaw growing up and I remember a lot of hard times for some of the families that made their living in the woods during the late 70's early 80's. 

Thanks for answering my questions guys. BTW, not thinking about going to work cutting got a really good gig and think I will stick with that.


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## slowp (Nov 27, 2008)

For the LOCAL guys here, travel is the thing. There used to be steady logging in the surrounding National Forest but then the Spotted Owl problem hit. I've posted this before, but here are the "Operation Restrictions" that can be put in a contract, and lately it seems like every one of these gets in.
I'm doing this from memory, so there may be some errors. The seasonal restrictions are:
Jan 1 to ? Summer--Bald Eagle Nesting and feeding or whatever.
Feb. 28 to July 1--Spotted Owl Nesting
March to August--No logging due to sap rising in trees which makes scarring up the leave trees a problem. We waive this as long as the logger is careful.
October 1 to March--No ground operations because of wet soils. This can be waived too.
December 1 to April 30--Winter range, can't make noise.
March to June something--Elk calving.

So, the free months to log are July, August and September. Guess when Fire Danger is at the worst? We have shutdowns for that.

So, the fallers have to travel to find work, and can't even find work now if they travel. It is hard work, and not steady. Had a conversation with one of the better local guys last week when we were waiting for the wind to die. He was driving a total of 6 hours to cut for 6 hours when he couldn't work. locally. He is one of the guys who has a good rep so he can usually find work. Not an easy job at all.


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## Gologit (Nov 27, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> There's a couple of issues there. One of the big issues is finding steady work. Not a problem during fire season if it's a good fire season. Right now there's a lot of cutters out of work. It's not going to pick up anytime soon either.
> 
> Some of the companies I've cut for as an employee have had real problems hiring young guys- the most common being that they turn out to be either potheads or crackheads. A lot of the older guys are getting out of it, that's leaving a vacuum that's not being filled and the experience that's lost is invaluable.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## Bushler (Nov 27, 2008)

I started cutting in 1967 too. Still get it wrong sometimes, but its the best job in the woods.


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## Burvol (Dec 1, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> There's a couple of issues there. One of the big issues is finding steady work. Not a problem during fire season if it's a good fire season. Right now there's a lot of cutters out of work. It's not going to pick up anytime soon either.
> 
> Some of the companies I've cut for as an employee have had real problems hiring young guys- the most common being that they turn out to be either potheads or crackheads. A lot of the older guys are getting out of it, that's leaving a vacuum that's not being filled and the experience that's lost is invaluable.
> 
> ...




Yes, it is hard to get started in the woods. I was told to come to work as a bucker one day by Dad. "Can you come tommorrow?" I was working with a local tree service, doing removals and trims, but mostly removals. I grew up with a power saw, bumping knots for my Dad and setting chokers here and there. He had a decent outfit going while I was a kid. I think he saw potential in me and got me started. A few weeks later I was cutting a little bit. Bit by bit, I cut with him then got my own wood. As my own man I can see how it would be hard to hire a kid. There is some stuff that you have to just have to cut timber. The biggest ones I can think of or see is either the moxy and balls to do it (all of it no matter what it is) and the calm thinking under pressure. If you get all ruffled cutting timber a lot it's not going to work out for you, sh!t goes from bad to catostrophic in a blink of an eye when you panic out. 

Lastly, it's a lifestyle...plain and simple. Waking up at 2-3 in the morning 6 months out of the year, grinding chains at night, saw work, thousands of dollars in the saw shop, greasing and changing calks constantly, scale books for some, thousands and thousands of miles, (Gotta love that Sirius, thank God) Rain, snow, sleet, heat, cold, ect, pressure to produce wood, and all of the other stuff that doesn't come to mind right now. 

As a faller you are in your own world. The games you play are all in your head. A set of ear plugs in all day will make you think a lot (if there's really anything in there), so what you do to prepare for your next move mentally is very important. We all make mistakes, but being able to cut without making a big mistake is KEY. It sets you back, it can get in your head, and it flat breaks your rithym. Watch a good log cutter, he is constant. Steady. Not flying around like a damn chicken with no head, but just grinding it out until the day is done. You do that and there will be a wall of butts piled up. 

I think I got side tracked here, sorry. But Jacob J. said it best a long time ago, and I don't remember what it all was, but the last thing in his post was that you don't end up with much. That's true, but I think he just forgot to say the memories and the identity of a faller.


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## forestryworks (Dec 1, 2008)

Burvol said:


> Yes, it is hard to get started in the woods. I was told to come to work as a bucker one day by Dad. "Can you come tommorrow?" I was working with a local tree service, doing removals and trims, but mostly removals. I grew up with a power saw, bumping knots for my Dad and setting chokers here and there. He had a decent outfit going while I was a kid. I think he saw potential in me and got me started. A few weeks later I was cutting a little bit. Bit by bit, I cut with him then got my own wood. As my own man I can see how it would be hard to hire a kid. There is some stuff that you have to just have to cut timber. The biggest ones I can think of or see is either the moxy and balls to do it (all of it no matter what it is) and the calm thinking under pressure. If you get all ruffled cutting timber a lot it's not going to work out for you, sh!t goes from bad to catostrophic in a blink of an eye when you panic out.
> 
> Lastly, it's a lifestyle...plain and simple. Waking up at 2-3 in the morning 6 months out of the year, grinding chains at night, saw work, thousands of dollars in the saw shop, greasing and changing calks constantly, scale books for some, thousands and thousands of miles, (Gotta love that Sirius, thank God) Rain, snow, sleet, heat, cold, ect, pressure to produce wood, and all of the other stuff that doesn't come to mind right now.
> 
> ...



good post, thanks


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## Humptulips (Dec 2, 2008)

slowp said:


> For the LOCAL guys here, travel is the thing. There used to be steady logging in the surrounding National Forest but then the Spotted Owl problem hit. I've posted this before, but here are the "Operation Restrictions" that can be put in a contract, and lately it seems like every one of these gets in.
> I'm doing this from memory, so there may be some errors. The seasonal restrictions are:
> Jan 1 to ? Summer--Bald Eagle Nesting and feeding or whatever.
> Feb. 28 to July 1--Spotted Owl Nesting
> ...



You forgot Marbeled Murrelet restrictions. No equipment including saws between March 1st and July 15th.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 2, 2008)

Bushler said:


> I started cutting in 1967 too. Still get it wrong sometimes, but its the best job in the woods.



I have to agree. I've had some good times firefighting and cutting timber both, and I think working the fires is helping a lot of cutting contractors make a real good living. I think I saw at least 80 different fallers on the line this year.



Burvol said:


> I think I got side tracked here, sorry. But Jacob J. said it best a long time ago, and I don't remember what it all was, but the last thing in his post was that you don't end up with much. That's true, but I think he just forgot to say the memories and the identity of a faller.



Yeah I'm totally with you on that, and I was reminded BIG TIME of that today- I drove up to this old boy's house just west of Gaston, Oregon. I was there to buy an old saw and I got to sit with the old boy's son for a while and shoot the chit. This guy started working in the woods in 1928 when he was 15, he's 95 now and still going strong. He logged until he was 72. In addition to being a cutter, he was a Disston and Power Machinery dealer from the late '40s until the late '50s. He'd go out and put in his six hours and then rush back to the shop and grind chains and repair saws until 7-8 at night. This guy was flat-out amazing. His stories rocked my world. Driving home I didn't think at all about the old saw he sold me, I thought about cutting timber in the early days when times were real hard.

Another old boy that would flat out rock anyone's world is my grandpa. He started cutting in 1940, took four years off for WW2, then went right back to it, until he stopped cutting in 1971. Then he started working as a heavy diesel mechanic and driver until he retired in 2003. Then in '05 he went *back* to cutting at age 81 with his new modded MS-361, and was out-cutting me!


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## SLlandscape (Dec 2, 2008)

turnkey4099 said:


> It was on earlier but conflicted with wife's shows.
> 
> Harry K



I hate when that happens. Plus she always wins.


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## slowp (Dec 2, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> You forgot Marbeled Murrelet restrictions. No equipment including saws between March 1st and July 15th.



Good catch! And then those pesky Murrelets have to get their sleep so you must wait one hour after sunrise to start work, and quit one hour before sunrise till August 15! We don't see them but they might could be around so we have that restriction also. In some areas that is. 

To get a job in the woods in the busy days, one stood outside the Mt Adams Cafe at 0:dark thirty and hoped somebody on a crew did not show up.


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## Bushler (Dec 3, 2008)

Has anyone ever actually seen a Marb. Murrelet? I never have, and its my understanding they spend half their life in the woods, and the other half at sea. Same as me.


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## Gologit (Dec 3, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Has anyone ever actually seen a Marb. Murrelet? I never have, and its my understanding they spend half their life in the woods, and the other half at sea. Same as me.



I've never seen one and I was born and raised in Humboldt County. Somebody told me that they spend most of their lives at sea and return to land just for nesting.

I've never seen one in the woods and when I was a kid I worked on trollers out of Eureka and never saw one at sea either. Maybe somebody can post an actual picture of one.


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## slowp (Dec 3, 2008)

The TV show, Oregon Field Guide had a segment on them. Someone had finally filmed the birds in trees. It wasn't too exciting. I seem to recall that they look like basic birds. 

Now, out in the woods today, we (loggers and I) had a discussion about owls. Whether it was barred owls or bard owls that were killing off the spotted owls. We decided that bard owls would only be found around Ashland, OR for the Shakespearian stuff, so it must be the barred owls that were killing the spotted owls. However, I think the barred owls might better be called striped owls because they also can be confused with barn owls, which is how this conversation got started. I think everybody is getting hard of hearing. Hearing aid stocks should be a good investment.


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## Humptulips (Dec 3, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Has anyone ever actually seen a Marb. Murrelet? I never have, and its my understanding they spend half their life in the woods, and the other half at sea. Same as me.



I think I saw one fly by near lake Quinault. I was pushing with the cat at the time. Probably ruined its beauty rest.


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## Bushler (Dec 3, 2008)

Gologit, what boats did you work on, and when? I used to fish out of Eureka a lot in the 70's. We had some good trips off the Mattole river and Domingo Creek. Eel Canyon rocked.

Too bad those places are off limits. Stupid KMZ rules. Worse than logging, the Fed sure can ruin a good thing.


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## RandyMac (Dec 3, 2008)

Another Humboldt guy here, never saw a Murlett either, anywhere. We had a boat in CC, never went commercial, just played, it was an old double-ender.
I knew the Mattole well enough, family had a ranch there, all BLM now.

Bushler,
The crab season is bust, most have gone home already, tough going for lots of people.


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## Gologit (Dec 3, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Gologit, what boats did you work on, and when? I used to fish out of Eureka a lot in the 70's. We had some good trips off the Mattole river and Domingo Creek. Eel Canyon rocked.
> 
> Too bad those places are off limits. Stupid KMZ rules. Worse than logging, the Fed sure can ruin a good thing.



Oh man, we are talking ancient history here. I worked summers in the late fifties and early sixties for my uncle on the South Harbor.We went for salmon and then albacore. It was a 40 foot double ender built by Tacoma Boat Works in the late thirties. Little bitty house and a big foc'sl. Like most of those boats you ran with your flopper-stoppers out whenever you could. My uncle had the boat built for him. After he retired the boat went through several owners and last I heard it was tidal and breaking up in San Pablo Bay.

I crabbed for Russ Snyder on the Pat Larocca a couple of winters whenever I could ditch school. I think it was broken up for firewood and fittings...had so many sistered frames there wasn't much left to nail to.

Went to Dutch and Kodiak for kingcrab two seasons in the early seventies for another uncle and that was about the end of it. We lost the boat in False Pass, spent some time in the raft, and I decided logging might be a better way to make a living. I thought about buying a troller...glad I didn't now. LOL...But I still think about it. Gets to you, doesn't it.


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## windthrown (Dec 4, 2008)

Your pun about _The Bard _will probably go above the heads of most around here I am afraid. But a good one. I would think that bar owls here will all be in taverns? Also barred owls are not directly killing the spotted owls, they are displacing their habitat. Many owls do hunt and kill other species of owls, particularly the spotted owl (they hunt pigmy owls and other birds). 

In the 4 years that I lived out in the boonies of the central coastal range of Oregon, I heard many many owls, and never saw a one. I set up barn owl boxes in the barn eves one year, but I never could get any to move in there. I did see an evening grosbeak once from the hottub, which was cool. I also never saw a wood duck before I lived there, and one year a group of them spent all spring around the ranch. Very striking looking ducks. I have seen marbled murelets along the coast in Mendocino Co. But I was with a group of dedicated birders there and they pointed them out to me. Otherwise I would have never spotted or ID'd them. 



slowp said:


> The TV show, Oregon Field Guide had a segment on them. Someone had finally filmed the birds in trees. It wasn't too exciting. I seem to recall that they look like basic birds.
> 
> Now, out in the woods today, we (loggers and I) had a discussion about owls. Whether it was barred owls or bard owls that were killing off the spotted owls. We decided that bard owls would only be found around Ashland, OR for the Shakespearian stuff, so it must be the barred owls that were killing the spotted owls. However, I think the barred owls might better be called striped owls because they also can be confused with barn owls, which is how this conversation got started. I think everybody is getting hard of hearing. Hearing aid stocks should be a good investment.


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## Burvol (Dec 4, 2008)

You know I was told by a biologist once that the abaundance of great horned owls in our area was a reason that the spotted owls were not too common here...they eat them. The Columbia Gorge area is FULL of great horned owls, lost a few cats as a kid. My parent's property is filthy with great horned owl pairs and nests. They are a pretty cool bird really.


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## forestryworks (Dec 4, 2008)

Burvol said:


> You know I was told by a biologist once that the abaundance of great horned owls in our area was a reason that the spotted owls were not too common here...they eat them. The Columbia Gorge area is FULL of great horned owls, lost a few cats as a kid. My parent's property is filthy with great horned owl pairs and nests. They are a pretty cool bird really.



seen a few great horned owls at two places where i cut firewood, damn big wingspan


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## Bushler (Dec 4, 2008)

Gologit, I hear you on the fishing v. logging. Two seasons ago I sold 400 crab pots to make shovel payments. I thought logging was better than crabbing, and I was right....until this Nov. when they stopped buying logs.

Those old Tacoma boats were a pretty good design. I know of a couple that are still floating, The Albatross, and the Lone Eagle.

Sidenote. I just got a job milling cedar for a sail boat reconstruction. Meeting the shipwright Monday to go over the specs. I guess its some famous old boat, they're forming some kind of group, non profit, save the boat thing. I think they have a web site.

They want to take pics of me and the miller making boards. That will be classic. I'll post a link when I find out the url.


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## Rookie1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Not to change the subject but Im watching the Discovery channel right now. They are making it look like you PNWers will be out of a job soon with those "supertrees on those tree farms.


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## Burvol (Dec 4, 2008)

Not watching it, but what those farms that produce fast growing trees cannot replicate is ring count.


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## forestryworks (Dec 4, 2008)

don't "supertrees" make for bad lumber?


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## Burvol (Dec 4, 2008)

Fast growing trees= low ring count for diameter. Low ring count= inferior product.


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## forestryworks (Dec 4, 2008)

gotcha


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## Cletuspsc (Dec 4, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> don't "supertrees" make for bad lumber?



Yea.. . .they have thicker annual rings especially in the early wood. they arent even that good for paper for the same reason. the late wood is what gives it strength. only good for you low grade paper pulp.


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## Metals406 (Dec 4, 2008)

Burvol said:


> Fast growing trees= low ring count for diameter. Low ring count= inferior product.



Agreed... The wood doesn't have the density, or ability to hold the same amount of load.


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## Cletuspsc (Dec 4, 2008)

beat me to it


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## Rookie1 (Dec 4, 2008)

I can dig it but the show didnt say that. Tonight there is a whole bunch of people thinking that super trees are the way to go.


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## Gologit (Dec 4, 2008)

Rookie1 said:


> I can dig it but the show didnt say that. Tonight there is a whole bunch of people thinking that super trees are the way to go.



It's what's going to happen. There's no denying that. Big timber companies think in dollars...not in humanity or tradition. We're already logging plantation pine over here...not much but enough to see what it's going to be like. The trees are so much alike in diameter that they look manufactured. They're easy to mill I guess but they look like a load of fenceposts...and they're not much bigger, either.

I'm glad I won't be around to see the day when that's all there is. If our forests, and that includes both private and government ground, were managed better we'd still be cutting big timber 100 years from now...and a hundred years after that. Sustained yield is very doable. The potential is there and we have the science and technology to make it happen.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it, though.


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## windthrown (Dec 5, 2008)

Supertrees have failed in the past. When I was in a silviculture class at the OSU extention in Roseburg, we went on many field trips to stands in the area. We passed many failed attempts to grow KMX (Knobcone-Monetery pine cross) in that area, which was supposed to be super-fast growing and be the end all to to end all doug fir forestry in central west Oregon. Well, after 20 or so years, the trees just stopped growing. There are many stands there abandoned now, stunted at about 20-30 feet tall. Too cold for them to thrive there. 

Similar to some stands I saw around central Califronia where people were trying to grow PNW Doug firs. Problem is that it is not cold enough there for doug firs to prosper. Another failed attempt at growing supertrees. The native doug firs around there are shorter and stouter, and tend to have multiple trunks (actually a sub-species). When I planted doug firs, we always used local seed sources for better trees. Early in the 1950s and 1960s, they tried planting all types of doug firs in the Tillimook fire areas, and that created a disaster. The trees are not adapted to the local environment, and many have grown into some weird stands that are hard to manage, and are now being thinned of the crappy non-local seeded trees. 

Anyway, its one thing to predict some future super trees that will change silviculture practices in future, and quite another to actually do it. I think in NZ and Oz they have done well with Monterey pines, but it is very intensive forestry. They also have some super hybrid trees, the likes of which Monterey County, CA wants no part of. It is iillegal to bring any hybrid Monterey pines into that area, to avoid cross breeding with the wild/native trees there. 

Also other attempts at introducing trees have failed, like the importing of eucalyptus into California from Oz about 100 years ago. It was all the rage back then. Now there are useless stands of Eucs all over California. They are invasive weeds. Some places have gone through great efforts to erradicate them, like on Angel Island north of San Francisco. 

As Mel Brooks said in Spaceballs, "F:censored:k! Even in the future, nothing works!


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