# Yes, ANOTHER OWB build thread... (Tank in tank style)



## breymeyerfam (Jul 16, 2016)

Ok, so I have been planning this build for the 10 years I've lived in my house since built. Finally getting around to it! Background: home is roughly 2500sqf with radiant tubes in basement floor (planned on an owb from the beginning). Will be adding a HX in the furnace and a side arm on my electric water heater for DHW. I will also be heating a 34x48 shop to 45-50 degrees (with HX) unless I'm out there, then to comfortable temp (65° couple times a week, a few hours at a time). The boiler will be roughly 100' from the house and 10' from the shop.

Finally, this build will be a tank in tank design. I am using two propane tanks that are 30" and 41" in diameter. The plan is to use forced draft, with a ranco aquastat, and two appropriately sized pumps, one to the house and the other to the shop. I think I have decided on roughly 320 gallons for my water volume in the boiler. Please vote in the poll and comment if you have a good reason for me to change my mind on water capacity...

And yes, I know that it didn't happen without a pic, so here is what I'm working with:


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## cantoo (Jul 16, 2016)

I have an old Western Pacific stainless. I'm thinking it's the 400 plus gallon model. I would not go smaller that that as it works well for me and I'm doing about what you're doing but also heat another house instead of your shop. I have all the heat I want and that's the best way to be. I know guys who have smaller ones and they feed the beast way too often and I think it's because of small firebox and small water capacity. I can put 54" long stuff in mine. I cut wood at 32" long and split it small enough to handle easily. Lots of pictures of my OWB, wood and equipment I use on here under my name. Make it as long as you can and you can burn almost anything in it. Slab wood is cheap and easy to handle if you can feed 5 or 6" pieces in. I never fill my owb full, I put in what I expect to have heat demand for and when I plan to put wood in it next. Usually burn junk wood (poplar) newspaper flyers and cardboard all summer for domestic water, put a bit of wood in every couple of days. With 400 gallons of water if the fire goes out it takes 4 or 5 days before we notice the water get cold.


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## cantoo (Jul 16, 2016)

FYIU, I was planning to build my own and was doing research and looking for supplies and I stumbled onto a used one real cheap. Some places are outlawing them and some people think they are too much work, look around for a used one while you are in the planning stages, you can always sell it once you get yours built.


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 17, 2016)

Ok, I cut the firebox roughly 48" deep. And planning to leave the water jacket tank as long as possible. That should give me between 420 and 430 gallons.


Getting used to my new plasma cutter, but the cut didn't turn out to bad.


I cut the tank at roughly at 40° bevel. Made grinding fairly easy. Small tank is ready to weld to the face plate.


The fit is pretty good, should make for some easy welding.


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## H-Ranch (Jul 17, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Ok, I cut the firebox roughly 48" deep. And planning to leave the water jacket tank as long as possible. That should give me between 420 and 430 gallons.
> Getting used to my new plasma cutter, but the cut didn't turn out to bad.
> I cut the tank at roughly at 40° bevel. Made grinding fairly easy. Small tank is ready to weld to the face plate.
> The fit is pretty good, should make for some easy welding.


Looks good - keep sending the updates.


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 17, 2016)

Removing fittings and holes.


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 18, 2016)

***I am not taking credit for these welds on the fire box. My brother is a union pipe fitter and welding instructor. I told him I was going to mig weld this together, and he proceeded to show up at my place with 40lb of welding rod and said "f**k if you are"! So, moving on. Tacking up the firebox.


Root pass with 6010:


Finishing second pass:







Second pass complete:


Second pass and cap is 7018 rod.

Cap pass 1/4 complete. Done for the evening. Forgot to snap a pic of the cap pass so far. Will get a pic later.


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## Skeans (Jul 19, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> ***I am not taking credit for these welds on the fire box. My brother is a union pipe fitter and welding instructor. I told him I was going to mig weld this together, and he proceeded to show up at my place with 40lb of welding rod and said "f**k if you are"! So, moving on. Tacking up the firebox.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know the reason for not using mig on pipe welding especially a root pass correct?

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## lindnova (Jul 19, 2016)

I don't the reason other than your supposed to stick weld pipes. I've always wondered why. I remember a few years ago an experienced welder at our shop mig welded up a testing cap on a pipe and it had leaks.


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## Marshy (Jul 19, 2016)

I voted 300 gal then read your description and changed it to 400. Sounds like you have the appropriate size now being 400+. Welds look good, slot better than one my buddy is building. His looks like the tin man took a **** on it. Good luck.


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## Skeans (Jul 19, 2016)

lindnova said:


> I don't the reason other than your supposed to stick weld pipes. I've always wondered why. I remember a few years ago an experienced welder at our shop mig welded up a testing cap on a pipe and it had leaks.


Most high pressure are a tig root then hot pass with tig or stick or once in a while flux core same with caps. The reason is being able to see you're not cold lapping the joint like you can hard wire mig. All hydraulic joints I do on my equipment and tubing I do with tig less chance of a cold lap or pin hole in the weld. 

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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 19, 2016)

Mostly stick welded because stick is easiest out in the field. Plenty of wire feed FCAW setups used too.

I'll be honest, for an experienced pipe welder it's pretty bad welding in those pics.


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 19, 2016)

Cap pass:


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## LondonNeil (Jul 19, 2016)

im gonna guess there will be some stresses in that end plate now.... be interesting to see what happens when its cut for the door. id say the weld looks very neat.


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## svk (Jul 20, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Cap pass:


That weld is a work of art!


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## super3 (Jul 21, 2016)

Levi, when is the next shootin GTG?


How ya been?


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 22, 2016)

super3 said:


> Levi, when is the next shootin GTG?
> 
> 
> How ya been?



I'm good, you?

You let me know when you wanna come down, an we'll shoot the hell outta ****! May even have to call ole Ericjeeper...


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## super3 (Jul 24, 2016)

Good here too.

That was a fun day.

Great lookin build on the burner.


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## Jakers (Jul 25, 2016)




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## breymeyerfam (Jul 25, 2016)

Ok, some more progress.

Ports cut from fire box tank.


Plate cut and partly welded in. (This is second pass, forgot to take a pic of root)


Cap:


Door opening cut. 20" door


That is all for now...


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 30, 2016)

Door flange cut and tacked. And yes, there was a significant amount of warp in the face plate. Had to make up roughly 1/8" to make the face of the door flange flat.


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 31, 2016)

Less critical welds, so I'm burning the door flange in with MIG.


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## TonyK (Jul 31, 2016)

I always enjoy the build threads. Keep up the good work.


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## LondonNeil (Jul 31, 2016)

welds look fabulous, especially for mig!


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## stratton (Jul 31, 2016)

Love the pics and progress


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 31, 2016)

Inner door (I will cut in the draft blower duct when I figure out which blower I'm going with)


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## breymeyerfam (Jul 31, 2016)

Quick question, how many CFM is everyones draft fans? I'm thinking 100-150 cfm should be adequate, but I don't want to go too much...


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## H-Ranch (Jul 31, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Quick question, how many CFM is everyones draft fans? I'm thinking 100-150 cfm should be adequate, but I don't want to go too much...


Mine is ~150 CFM. I would like to try smaller though as I believe it is plenty to stoke the fire, and may be too much once the fire is going. A quick check of some of the commercial OWB's should give you a good idea what common sizes are.


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 8, 2016)

Ordered 1TDP7 Dayton blower. 146cfm stated. Figured I'd go big and can always add a fan control later if I needed to slow it down. Getting ready to order fiberglass rope for the door gasket. Looking at the 1" diameter. That looks pretty standard for boilers. Lastly I want some opinions on location for draw and return ports on the tank. I was planning on drawing from the top rear of the water jacket and returning towards the front almost directly under the firebox. The water jacket is almost twice as long as the fire box, will drawing so far away from the firebox hurt me? I've always heard that water layers and the hottest will be in the top 25%. Here is a quick drawing roughly indicating front and rear while showing firebox in relation to the water jacket.


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## hseII (Aug 8, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Mostly stick welded because stick is easiest out in the field. Plenty of wire feed FCAW setups used too.
> 
> I'll be honest, for an experienced pipe welder it's pretty bad welding in those pics.



I'll be honest, You personally can't see S H I T from these pictures when fooling with 6010.

Post up your 6010 welds and prove me wrong.


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## cantoo (Aug 8, 2016)

Not sure what size my blower is but I also felt it was putting too much air into the fire. I spent hours on fabrication of a restrictor plate over part of the blower hole to reduce the air. Mainly it's a piece of duct tape that covers about an inch of the hole. Works for me. What I would like is a blower fan that has the ability to come on at full speed and then about 5 minutes later (when fire is going good) it slows down to about half speed or even just shuts off but leaves the damper door open for natural draft to slow the burn down to make for longer cooler burns. I think I'm loosing a lot of heat out the chimney especially in the summer when I'm running the owb at lower temperatures.


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## Skeans (Aug 8, 2016)

cantoo said:


> Not sure what size my blower is but I also felt it was putting too much air into the fire. I spent hours on fabrication of a restrictor plate over part of the blower hole to reduce the air. Mainly it's a piece of duct tape that covers about an inch of the hole. Works for me. What I would like is a blower fan that has the ability to come on at full speed and then about 5 minutes later (when fire is going good) it slows down to about half speed or even just shuts off but leaves the damper door open for natural draft to slow the burn down to make for longer cooler burns. I think I'm loosing a lot of heat out the chimney especially in the summer when I'm running the owb at lower temperatures.


Couldn't you use an air knife? 

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## cantoo (Aug 8, 2016)

Is that like an air guitar?
What I have works, might use a little more wood but I like cutting wood so it's ok with me. I like to keep things simple, much easier to keep working and if it stops working I am capable of fixing it with things on hand. Computerized things are for nerds not hill billies like us.


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## Skeans (Aug 8, 2016)

cantoo said:


> Is that like an air guitar?
> What I have works, might use a little more wood but I like cutting wood so it's ok with me. I like to keep things simple, much easier to keep working and if it stops working I am capable of fixing it with things on hand. Computerized things are for nerds not hill billies like us.


No its a manual operated guillotine used on turbo charged diesels to shut them down if they run away, the same idea could be used for limiting air flow.

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## cantoo (Aug 8, 2016)

Skeans, just googled them and yes they look like they might work and aren't really that complicated.


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 9, 2016)

A timed relay would work perfect for what you were talking.


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 11, 2016)

cantoo said:


> Not sure what size my blower is but I also felt it was putting too much air into the fire. I spent hours on fabrication of a restrictor plate over part of the blower hole to reduce the air. Mainly it's a piece of duct tape that covers about an inch of the hole. Works for me. What I would like is a blower fan that has the ability to come on at full speed and then about 5 minutes later (when fire is going good) it slows down to about half speed or even just shuts off but leaves the damper door open for natural draft to slow the burn down to make for longer cooler burns. I think I'm loosing a lot of heat out the chimney especially in the summer when I'm running the owb at lower temperatures.



What you need is an "interval on" timed relay. There are many different time lengths available, but it looks like there is one made by dayton that is adjustable from 10 seconds to 10 minutes. Can be found on ebay for $20ish. Very simple to hook up. Power in, power out, and a neutral. When power is applied the timer starts. Power out of relay is shut off when timer runs out. Relay resets when power is removed from relay(when boiler reaches temp and normally shuts blower down). 

This is a very good idea and I think Im actually going to try it and see how it works. Only time I see an issue, would be when you first build a fire and want a longer burn. I plan on putting a draft fan on/ off switch on the front, so you can switch it off when loading anyway, this would allow you to reset the relay if you needed to have the blower keep running by just flicking the switch off and back on...

Anyone have any comments on where my supply and returns should be on the tank from my previous post of the rough drawing? 

I got the draft blower in the mail today and the door gasket should be here by the weekend, so hopefully I can get the door finished up and start on the hinges and lock mechanism.


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## H-Ranch (Aug 11, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Anyone have any comments on where my supply and returns should be on the tank from my previous post of the rough drawing?


Mine is a similar tank in tank design. I pull water from the top near the rear of the firebox and return it at the bottom center. It seems to work well enough and I don't know if different locations would be any improvement. The only caution I would say is not to make the feed line to the house too high so as not to run the pump dry if the water is low - 25% from the top would seem sufficient. I chose not to draw from the bottom in case there was any sediment in the tank. Don't put your aquastat probe too near to the return. Use valves on every line so you can shut them off if needed for service. Oh - and put in multiple inlet/outlet ports in case you ever decide to heat another building/swimming pool/hot tub/etc.


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## cantoo (Aug 11, 2016)

Don't let your wife touch the owb. This is what happens when it's 100 outside, very little heat draw, Ash charcoal in the owb and she decides it's a good time to throw 6 pcs of 4x8' cardboard in the owb. "I was just trying to burn it before the rain got it all wet". PS, we're in a Total Burn Ban here now. I had to open the door because smoke was pouring out the seal and out the chimney. Needed air to burn up the smoke, 2 minutes later the water is boiling.


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## H-Ranch (Aug 11, 2016)

You may also want to buy steel pipe fittings instead of malleable iron fittings if you haven't already thought of that for ease of welding when installing the ports.


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## NSMaple1 (Aug 12, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Ordered 1TDP7 Dayton blower. 146cfm stated. Figured I'd go big and can always add a fan control later if I needed to slow it down. Getting ready to order fiberglass rope for the door gasket. Looking at the 1" diameter. That looks pretty standard for boilers. Lastly I want some opinions on location for draw and return ports on the tank. I was planning on drawing from the top rear of the water jacket and returning towards the front almost directly under the firebox. The water jacket is almost twice as long as the fire box, will drawing so far away from the firebox hurt me? I've always heard that water layers and the hottest will be in the top 25%. Here is a quick drawing roughly indicating front and rear while showing firebox in relation to the water jacket.




Like your fan issue, water movement & heat transfer inside the boiler will likely be a fuzzy picture until you actually get burning with it. I think the locations you are planning for supply & return are the best for those purposes - but you also might end up needing to install a separate mixing pump to prevent localized boiling at possible hot spots above the firebox. I can picture there not being a lot of water movement in the top front part of your water jacket. Your system flows etc. will also play a part - so if you can plan for that eventuality now, adding a second pump later will be easy. Maybe extra ports top front & bottom rear? I know I have heard of guys with Garns adding secondary mixing pumps - they generate a LOT of heat in a big hurry though.


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 14, 2016)

Blower duct through the door. Is regular fiberglass insulation ok or do I need rock wool or something like that?


As for heat transfer and water flow, I have contemplated making some baffles to direct water flow within the tank...


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 20, 2016)

Finally getting some more progress to show. I ended up going with mineral wool insulation in the door since it is good to 2000°. Door fab finished. Fit is pretty good. The 1" rope is just a slight squeeze. (Made groove 7/8")


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 20, 2016)

Fitted the blower and draft door/ solenoid assembly. Door closes by gravity(made plenty heavy to make sure it closes no problem). Solenoid was kinda abrupt when triggered, so I used a heavy spring as my linkage to take the initial abuse of the big solenoid(4x241).


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## breymeyerfam (Aug 28, 2016)

Not alot to show. Wire wheeled all the paint off the outside of the firebox. No paint chips in this water system!


Purchased the most expensive part of this project... (Logstor pipe). Went to Greenville Ohio to Classic Comfort. Good guys to deal with. The second pic shows the end of the pipe. Real thick outer jacket! Perfect for me due to rocky soil.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 3, 2016)

Prepping the tank for fittings. Going to weld in 3 ins/outs. Only need 2 right now. Welding in pipes for 2 so that the water is drawn from the center of the tank. Hopefully that will promote equal flow around the firebox. Returns are going directly centered under the firebox near the front. Two thermowells(will use whichever one shows the highest temp).


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 11, 2016)

Firebox is fitted and tacked into the outer tank. Now a bunch of welding to do.


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## WoodTick007 (Sep 11, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Less critical welds, so I'm burning the door flange in with MIG.


I am curious how you came to the conclusion that mig/wirefeed welding is/was not designed for "critical" welds/welding. If concerned one could select a dual shielded fluxcore wire. Your not building a rocket booster for the Challenger. . . you welding together two old propane tanks to burn solid fuel in your yard. . .
Speaking of the Challenger. . .they mig welded the rocket booster with a Harbor Freight one heat setting 90am 110v mig welder. . . obama's cost cutting again.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 12, 2016)

WoodTick007 said:


> I am curious how you came to the conclusion that mig/wirefeed welding is/was not designed for "critical" welds/welding.



No reason other than I'm not a professional welder and haven't stick welded since I've bought a mig(15 years ago).


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## PSUplowboy (Sep 12, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Blower duct through the door. Is regular fiberglass insulation ok or do I need rock wool or something like that?
> 
> 
> 
> As for heat transfer and water flow, I have contemplated making some baffles to direct water flow within the tank...



I mixed castable refractory and perlite together to insulate my door after rebuilding it. I forget the ratio- but I remember finding it on a site for homemade kilns. It seemed to work better than new other than the door being heavier. It has less creosote building up around the inside door edges.

Something like this:
http://www.myheap.com/casting-molding/my-heap-mold-book/chapter-1-materials/how-to-make-irc.html


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 12, 2016)

Face fully welded to the outside tank.


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## svk (Sep 12, 2016)

Boy I wish I could weld like that.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 14, 2016)

More welding done tonight. All the bungs fully welded in. Three returns, two 1" and a 1.5", equally spaced every 6" from the front directly under the firebox.




The two 1" draws I will be using have dip tubes that will pull water centered in the tank, roughly 4.5" from the top, and an extra 1.5" for the future. Two 1/2" for thermo wells(will use which ever gives the hottest reading).



Decided that welding the flue from the top was going to be much easier than from the inside. So cut an access panel and will weld it back in around the flue after the flue to firebox weld is complete. Root weld is done, but out of time for the day.


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## Woodyjiw (Sep 14, 2016)

Looking good..


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## PSUplowboy (Sep 14, 2016)

Are you dropping your chimney pipe down in below the top of the tank? If so, is it near the back of the boiler? I can't see well in the pics. Cool project!


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 14, 2016)

PSUplowboy said:


> Are you dropping your chimney pipe down in below the top of the tank? If so, is it near the back of the boiler? I can't see well in the pics. Cool project!


Yes, the flue sticks down halfway in the firebox, and is almost at the very back.


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## PSUplowboy (Sep 14, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Yes, the flue sticks down halfway in the firebox, and is almost at the very back.



That sounds good. I fixed fire in a boiler once that had the pipe way down in it, but it was near the front. It was easy to hit with every piece of wood going in and it really seemed to keep a person from "filling it up ".


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 15, 2016)

Patch plate rough fitted up.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 18, 2016)

Worked on door hinges today. The door and hinges were by far the most challenging parts of this build. Made the hinges fully adjustable.


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## H-Ranch (Sep 18, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> The door and hinges were by far the most challenging parts of this build.


Sure didn't use the "hillbilly with a welder" design on the hinges - maybe that's why they were the most challenging part. 

Looking good. You're going to have to hustle to get it done for the start of the season. When you get to the legs, make it taller than you think you need it. I like not having to bend down to see how to put the last log in.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 18, 2016)

H-Ranch said:


> Sure didn't use the "hillbilly with a welder" design on the hinges - maybe that's why they were the most challenging part.



Yeah, the hinges are definitely overkill, but I want to be able to adjust the door fit over time. I want ZERO air leakage around the door.


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## huntmaster86 (Sep 19, 2016)

boiler looks great!!! wish you were making this last summer so i could of incorporated some of your design in my boiler.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 23, 2016)

Pressure test is a success. Has held steady over night.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 23, 2016)

For anyone wanting a better idea of how my design looks on the inside, I 3d modeled it and then did this cutaway view. This gives a good shot of how the flue and firebox are positioned within the water jacket.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 24, 2016)

The bottom of the door opening is 36" from the ground. That makes this thing very tall. Legs are 5x5x1/4 square tube I had laying around.


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## NSMaple1 (Sep 24, 2016)

Is there anything under the rear of the firebox for support? Or is all the weight hanging by the front face?


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 24, 2016)

NSMaple1 said:


> Is there anything under the rear of the firebox for support? Or is all the weight hanging by the front face?





breymeyerfam said:


>



Yes, I have spacers at the front and rear of the firebox so it can rest on the bottom of the water jacket. (This also helped me keep my positioning correct when I inserted the firebox and face to be welded into the big tank)


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## NSMaple1 (Sep 25, 2016)

Ok, cool.

That question just kind of popped into my head after some recent internet reading re. the old Wood Doctor debacle. The selling/marketing side, was placing blame for their failures or some of it at least, on the manufacturing side for short cutting & doing that exact thing. (Hanging the firebox off the front).


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 25, 2016)

Door latch. Cam over bearing type.


Open:


Closed:


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## absrio (Sep 25, 2016)

NSMaple1 said:


> Ok, cool.
> 
> That question just kind of popped into my head after some recent internet reading re. the old Wood Doctor debacle. The selling/marketing side, was placing blame for their failures or some of it at least, on the manufacturing side for short cutting & doing that exact thing. (Hanging the firebox off the front).


along this same line of thought did the op place some spacers on the top of the burn chamber?? just think a hollow tank (basically) inside a tank of h2o will want to float.


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 25, 2016)

absrio said:


> along this same line of thought did the op place some spacers on the top of the burn chamber?? just think a hollow tank (basically) inside a tank of h2o will want to float.


No, other than the flue pipe welded up through both tanks.


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## LondonNeil (Sep 25, 2016)

I'm enjoying reading this, keep up the great work!


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## dave_dj1 (Sep 26, 2016)

Very cool, I wish I had the time and money to build one exactly like it. Keep the updates coming. What size building(s) are you heating with it?


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## breymeyerfam (Sep 28, 2016)

dave_dj1 said:


> Very cool, I wish I had the time and money to build one exactly like it. Keep the updates coming. What size building(s) are you heating with it?


*2500sf home and 34x48 shop*


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## dave_dj1 (Sep 28, 2016)

Tell me your thoughts on this idea. It is related to circulation inside the unit. I was thinking if I built one I would have spiral fins on the outside of the firebox in hopes it would create some natural flow and to help more efficiently dissipating the heat transfer.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 2, 2016)

dave_dj1 said:


> Tell me your thoughts on this idea. It is related to circulation inside the unit. I was thinking if I built one I would have spiral fins on the outside of the firebox in hopes it would create some natural flow and to help more efficiently dissipating the heat transfer.


Not sure. Test fired mine up to full operating temp (180°) today. With a pump circulating water, I feel that I have a good flow within the tank. From front to back, there was only a degree or two difference. From top to bottom there was maybe 4 or 5°.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 2, 2016)

FIRST FIRE AND TEST TO OPERATING TEMPERATURE IS A SUCCESS!
Pics:
Lighting first fire


Wood was kinda wet so little more smoke than I would like...


Flue temp about 12" above water jacket. 550-650 was the avg and the highest I saw was just over 700°. Mind you this was cherry, I'm sure oak or hickory will raise that.


Reached full temp!


After reaching temp, I used the hose and sprayed the tank to simulate a heat draw. Repeatedly would take 5 or 6 minutes of this to drop the water temp 5°.


Water was evaporating off the tank pretty quick at 180°!


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## H-Ranch (Oct 2, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> After reaching temp, I used the hose and sprayed the tank to simulate a heat draw.


Nicely done! Just in time to add a real heat draw and end the simulations.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 2, 2016)

H-Ranch said:


> Nicely done! Just in time to add a real heat draw and end the simulations.


10-4! Things I'm hoping to have done in the next 2 weeks:
1. Get insulation on tank. I already have quoted spray foam @ $400-$450 for 4" thick. 
2. Lining up mini-excavator and concrete core machine for burying my pipe and coring through my basement wall and the floor of my shop.
3. Get concrete pad poured to set boiler on.

Final goal is to have this thing fired up and running by NOV 1.


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## huntmaster86 (Oct 7, 2016)

looking good!!! enjoying following your build


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## dave_dj1 (Oct 7, 2016)

Very nice, keep up the good work.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 9, 2016)

Made the cover for the blower on the door. I'm not a sheet metal guy! This is the best I got with out a shear or a brake. Bends didn't turn out as good as I would have liked, but it will have to do.


Heavy 1/4" screen should keep out anything that could possibly get sucked into the blower and hang up the draft door. Don't need a boil over.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 9, 2016)

Any place where the firebox or flue could have came into contact with spray foam when applied has been insulated with rock wool. (Sorry for the fuzzy picture)



Made a little box over the latch mechanism to seal it up from the back side.


Tried to bend the rock wool around the flue, but quickly found out that it's too stiff and only rips. So I cut trapazoid wedges and zip tied them around the flue.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 9, 2016)

Last thing accomplished for the weekend was to install a second thermostat. Did lots of reading about using a single with dual heat stages, but the cost of a more fancy thermostat changed my mind. Went with another simple one. Wiring is easy. Pulled 24v from the first one to power the second. Heat relay from second back to fan relay in first. Seems to work. Fan kicks on when boiler thermostat calls for heat and gas will kick in if it gets down to second setting. Boiler thermostat will be set on 68-70 and back up gas thermostat will be set on 60.


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## huntmaster86 (Oct 9, 2016)

great work!! where did you order your blower and thermo wells from? I need to order mine up asap


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 9, 2016)

huntmaster86 said:


> great work!! where did you order your blower and thermo wells from? I need to order mine up asap


Blower and thermowells come from ebay.


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## lindnova (Oct 10, 2016)

The two thermostat idea may be better anyway. I have a single and 2 degree differential for turning on the gas. I should figure out how to change the differential as I would rather loose more than 2 degrees before using gas.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 14, 2016)

Expansion tank / reservoir attached. Just need to plumb the over flow vent pipe on top and the sight glass and needed valves on the end of the reservoir. This thing will be ready to be spray foamed soon.


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## Ted Jenkins (Oct 15, 2016)

Looks like a winner to me better than my early attempts with a water heater tank. Thanks


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## huntmaster86 (Oct 15, 2016)

i love the expansion/reservoir tank on the top! i may to steal that idea. I test fired my boiler 2 days ago and this could really come in handy, What size pipe connects the boiler to the upper tank? Are you making this a open or closed system? by the sound of the valves on the expansion tank i presume closed. Mine is open but i believe that the tank idea would work on mine too just to help contain boiler overs.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 15, 2016)

huntmaster86 said:


> ,What size pipe connects the boiler to the upper tank? Are you making this a open or closed system?


1/2" npt between the two tanks. I'd have liked to go larger, but the top tank is aluminum and already had all the fittings in it. (It's an old air tank from a semi) The top tank is to always keep the steel tank flooded in water. 

This is an OPEN SYSTEM.

The other two valves I referenced are to make the sight glass be able to be flooded and then drained after checking the level, so water doesn't freeze in the sight glass, since the sight glass is outside of the insulation.


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## huntmaster86 (Oct 17, 2016)

Ah ok. Can't wait to see the finished product. I'm figuring out how I want to make my sight glass. Mine is inside my garage so I don't have to worry about freezing issues.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 17, 2016)

Boiler build is complete minus insulation. Hopefully the insulation will be on later this week.


Sight glass:


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 23, 2016)

Ok, so at no point have I almost gave up on this project, until today that is. Yesterday got all the trench dug. Today was coring 2 holes in concrete and laying the logstor pipe. LOGSTOR PIPE IS HARD TO WORK WITH! It about beat me. Very stiff and hard to get around corners and stuff. Oh well, I got it finally. Here are the pics showing it all. First pic is the pipe strapped to trees to keep it from coiling right back up.


Next couple of digging. Took a while due to being real careful up close to the house.



Nice clean hole through my shop floor.


Going in the trench.


Didn't get a finished pic, cause it was well past dark before I got done.


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## dave_dj1 (Oct 24, 2016)

Nice! It won't be long and you'll be heating the house and nice and warm


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 26, 2016)

Fully prepped for foam:


In process:


Done:


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 27, 2016)

I forgot to share this sooner. I created a quick excel table to calculate water jacket volume when I was in the design stage. Figured I'd share it and save someone the math. This is based on tank in tank style(two cylinders with one spherical end on each). Just enter the diameters and straight wall lengths of tanks and viola!


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Twuj162plYQ0NOQ1dCV1VJT1I3WWpza2F2OXRTN19qcm0w/view?usp=drivesdk


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## dave_dj1 (Oct 27, 2016)

The boiler looks great and that little calc will be mighty useful to a few people in the future.


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## benp (Oct 28, 2016)

Awesome job!!!!!

Sweet mini hoe!!!!! Awesome tool!!! Is that yours or a rental?

Fantastic with the spray foam!!! 

That stuff holds up very well and does have a certain fire retardant quality. 

What we have found over many years is that it in most abused areas it winds up separating from the metal aaaaaaaaand it will catch fire but smolders first. 

Looking forward to your first fire!!!!!


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 28, 2016)

benp said:


> Awesome job!!!!!
> 
> Sweet mini hoe!!!!! Awesome tool!!! Is that yours or a rental?



It's not mine, but not a rental either. Borrowed from my fathers work. VERY appreciative to my fathers employer to be able to use quality CATERPILLAR equipment now and then.


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## absrio (Oct 29, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Expansion tank / reservoir attached. Just need to plumb the over flow vent pipe on top and the sight glass and needed valves on the end of the reservoir. This thing will be ready to be spray foamed soon.


fantastic job on this unit!!!! one suggestion I have is to build a small glove box somewhere. always nice to put on a pair of warm dry gloves before filling the boiler.

please keep the pics coming.


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 30, 2016)

Ready to pour pad for boiler. Figured up just under a yard. 3 yard minimum to get concrete delivered without an extra fee. So, perfect time to finally pour the approach to my shop.


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## backhoelover (Oct 30, 2016)

this is one of the best thread i have seen


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## breymeyerfam (Oct 30, 2016)

Got copper attached to the logstore and ran from basement wall up and over into mechanical room.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 1, 2016)

Well today I officially missed my goal of Nov 1 start up...

Poured concrete yesterday. Boiler pad and used extra for approach in front of the boiler. Got a 5x8 just out of extra concrete!


And the approach for my shop turned out pretty good too. The brush marks aren't real even due to just using my shop broom instead of the right tool for the job.


Also worked on the copper in the mechanical room this evening. Floor loops and floor zone pump is plumbed. Hopefully I can get the plumbing in the house finished up this week. One more trip to menards for plumbing supplies!


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## NSMaple1 (Nov 2, 2016)

'One more trip...' - ha, famous last words there. lol...


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## Jake Wise (Nov 2, 2016)

Wow, this is a way more detail focused build than mine was. I have been running a homemade tank in tank for going on 3 years now. I built mine in the middle of season after getting the first winter time electric bill at the house we had just bought (all electric heat), so I was in a big rush. It works but is no where near as pretty as yours. Good work.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 2, 2016)

Jake Wise said:


> Wow, this is a way more detail focused build than mine was. I have been running a homemade tank in tank for going on 3 years now. I built mine in the middle of season after getting the first winter time electric bill at the house we had just bought (all electric heat), so I was in a big rush. It works but is no where near as pretty as yours. Good work.





backhoelover said:


> this is one of the best thread i have seen



Thanks guys! I know that when I was planning for this project, I spent lots of time trolling threads for ideas. Some threads were helpful and had great ideas and pics, and some had great ideas but we're lacking in info and pics. I haven't had any new ideas to share, just my rendition of the same old design. However what I am trying to, is to document each step of my build and provide as many pictures as possible to help the next guy save some time when planning for his. 

When the build and install is complete, I will be posting an excel sheet of my build expenses. My budget was $3500, but that was before I upgraded to the logstor pipe outside and 1" copper inside. Needless to say, I am solidly over budget.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 10, 2016)

Mechanical room complete. The furnace installer didnt do me any favors by running the lineset directly across the spot I had to put the hx in. I had to cut the a/c lines to get the hx in the furnace. The floor pex and manifold definitely isn't as straight I would have liked, but the concrete didn't want to give any as I was trying to line it up... lol. The rest turned out fairly well.




Hopefully will be setting the boiler on the pad this weekend. Maybe be up and running sometime next week.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 12, 2016)

Set on pad. Good thing I didn't add any more weight to this thing, our old loader wouldnt have picked it up. This was all she wanted.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 14, 2016)

Connections made at the boiler. Waiting on a gasket for the floor pex manifold before I do one last air test and start to fill.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 18, 2016)

Ok guys, yesterday I filled and purged the system, and tested pumps. Today I lit it up! Ran it up to 175 to get full water expansion and topped off reservoir tank. Currently have it set to 150-160. The ranco aquastat works beautiful. I'm over shooting the set temp by about 2 degrees, but its still pretty warm out with little draw. On another note, I think I have too much blower. After dark when it's running, you can see it shooting small flames and some sparks up and out the stack. I will be getting a speed pot to slow it down some. BUT all in all, IT'S UP AND RUNNING. Still have to wire up my zone pump control for the basement floor heat. Also need to insulate all the copper in the basement, but that will have to wait til Monday due to my insulation not being here yet. Will be finishing odds and ends in the coming week. Will get final cost sheet uploaded too.


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## H-Ranch (Nov 19, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> After dark when it's running, you can see it shooting small flames and some sparks up and out the stack.
> 
> Also need to insulate all the copper in the basement, but that will have to wait til Monday due to my insulation not being here yet.


Excellent, and just in time for the cold weather too. Oh yeah, when my baffle has failed a few times on mine it looks like a rocket is stuck in the stack! I know the "torturous path" of the baffle makes for a lot less sparks - a smaller blower fan may also help though I'm not sure it will be as effective.

At least the heat loss from the copper will go to heating the house so that's not an immediate need.


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## LondonNeil (Nov 19, 2016)




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## dave_dj1 (Nov 19, 2016)

That's awesome! After you have been burning a while could you try it without the blower? I have always believed that a blower just uses more wood. I think with the proper settings once the unit is up to temp you could get by on just a natural draft. My brothers CB only has natural draft.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 19, 2016)

Quick question. How many hours between blower cycles at the boiler are you guys getting with mild 30-35 degree temps outside?

Oh and a quick pic of the night time flamethrower.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 19, 2016)

dave_dj1 said:


> That's awesome! After you have been burning a while could you try it without the blower? I have always believed that a blower just uses more wood.


I am going to order a speed pot for the fan and a timed relay. Plan is to fan force the start up til coals get roaring then kill the fan and just leave the damper door open til reaches set temp. I'm thinking 2 minutes of blower is about right with current wood and temperature conditions, but will be easily adjustable due to the timed relay I'm looking at is adjustable .1-10 minutes.


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## NSMaple1 (Nov 19, 2016)

Uh, yeah, that's quite a candle you got going on there.


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## benp (Nov 19, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> Ok guys, yesterday I filled and purged the system, and tested pumps. Today I lit it up! Ran it up to 175 to get full water expansion and topped off reservoir tank. Currently have it set to 150-160. The ranco aquastat works beautiful. I'm over shooting the set temp by about 2 degrees, but its still pretty warm out with little draw. On another note, I think I have too much blower. After dark when it's running, you can see it shooting small flames and some sparks up and out the stack. I will be getting a speed pot to slow it down some. BUT all in all, IT'S UP AND RUNNING. Still have to wire up my zone pump control for the basement floor heat. Also need to insulate all the copper in the basement, but that will have to wait til Monday due to my insulation not being here yet. Will be finishing odds and ends in the coming week. Will get final cost sheet uploaded too.



Excellent job!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now you get the other fun part of learning the stove.



breymeyerfam said:


> Quick question. How many hours between blower cycles at the boiler are you guys getting with mild 30-35 degree temps outside?
> 
> Oh and a quick pic of the night time flamethrower.



Ah yes. We affectionately called that "the orange cone of cleaning."


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## Jake Wise (Nov 20, 2016)

I had trouble with mine forcing too much heat out the stack as well. I like having a blower because it allows me to burn junk and unseasoned wood, so I wanted it working. I took a two pronged approach I got a dimmer pot to go on the fan and I installed a damper in the stack to hold it back. The pot burned out pretty quick and I didn't want to pay the price of one of those a/c controllers that allow you to slow motors down so I just took a piece of metal duct tape and covered half the intake hole for the blower. This is probably not good for the motor long term but it got me by. Oh, and overshooting temp by only 2 degrees is pretty good.


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## TFPace (Nov 20, 2016)

breymeyer,

I'm enjoying your build thread. 
I liked seeing your use of plenty of unions in the piping of your heat exchanger. That will certainly help out down the road if you need to remove anything.
How many circuits are you running in your system? 1. Shop heat 2. Floor heat for your basement 3. Domestic hot water 4. Main level heat

I heat with a geothermal system and like it but wish I had gone with a OWB as a back up.

Do you have plans to build a enclosure around the stove?

I look forward to your spread sheet too.

Did you log the hours you have spent in this build?

Thanks again for this thread !!!

Tom


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 20, 2016)

TFPace said:


> breymeyer,
> 
> How many circuits are you running in your system?
> 
> ...



1. There are two pump circuits being utilized off the boiler. The shop is just a single air over water hx. The house circuit first goes through the hx in the furnace. Next the side arm on the water heater. And on the return line headed back to the boiler there are two tee's with the floor loop connected off the side. The hx in the furnace and the side arm has constant flow from the boiler, but the floor loop only has flow when the pump is trigger by the thermostat in the basement.

Yes, there is a enclosure in the works. Actually was building the end walls in the shop yesterday.


Unfortunately my spreadsheet isnt as detailed as it should have been. It doesn't detail each part, but more like each purchase. Mainly to differentiate the boiler build from the install cost.

Lastly I did not log the hours. I should have. I have lots into it...


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 20, 2016)

Enclosure taking shape.


This is going to be my floor heat zone pump control. 24v transformer creating juice for the thermostat. And 24v over 120v relay to turn pump on and off.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 22, 2016)

I insulated the copper yesterday with the neoprene self adhesive style pipe wrap. Huge difference. The basement is 5 degrees cooler tonight than last night.


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 23, 2016)

So far the boiler has been going somewhere between 12 & 18 hours before needing more. However I haven't been loading full. One row half full over the coals(6-8 pieces of wood) has all I've been loading to keep the coal pile down. I'm very happy with the way everything is working so far. Hopefully will make some more progress on the enclosure this weekend.


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## dave_dj1 (Nov 24, 2016)

That's awesome. How long is the wood?
Keep the updates coming.
As I have said, I would love to build my own OWB like yours but I don't see it happening.


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## benp (Nov 24, 2016)

breymeyerfam said:


> So far the boiler has been going somewhere between 12 & 18 hours before needing more. However I haven't been loading full. One row half full over the coals(6-8 pieces of wood) has all I've been loading to keep the coal pile down. I'm very happy with the way everything is working so far. Hopefully will make some more progress on the enclosure this weekend.
> 
> Pic is of avg load ive been using every 12hrs. Keep in mind I put this load in a few hours ago and it has at least one cycle on it already...



That's awesome!!!!!!


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## breymeyerfam (Nov 24, 2016)

dave_dj1 said:


> That's awesome. How long is the wood?
> Keep the updates coming.
> As I have said, I would love to build my own OWB like yours but I don't see it happening.


I cut 22" on avg. Longest my splitter can handle is 24.


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 10, 2016)

Haven't got much accomplished the last two weeks, but today I did manage to set the heater and plumb it up in the shop.


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 23, 2016)

Little update. Everything has been working great. However not knowing if the boiler was cycling when I looked out the window after dark was frustrating, so I fixed that issue. Added an LED indicator light to tell me when the blower was running. HANDY!


The view out the kitchen window at night has a nice little green glow when cycling!


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## breymeyerfam (Jan 2, 2017)

Pretty much finished up the enclosure today. Only a few things remain. I need trim for the side access door, a motion sensor for the light, extend the flue another 6-8ft, and make a flange off the flue to cover up the opening around it.


This has been quite the project, but I am very happy with the outcome. It's nice working in a 70° shop! And my finished basement is alot more livable with the floor heat.


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## island edge (Jan 8, 2017)

Sweet and Good job on the build!


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## island edge (Jan 8, 2017)

This is how i have been heating for years. Now get better/ drier wood for next season if u don't have some already to keep the smoke down and neighbors happy..


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## breymeyerfam (Jan 21, 2017)

island edge said:


> This is how i have been heating for years. Now get better/ drier wood for next season if u don't have some already to keep the smoke down and neighbors happy..



That pic is right after calling for heat cycle. Smoke clears up. Also, smoke doesn't matter. I have no neighbors. My dad is the closest person to me and is a half mile away.


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## breymeyerfam (Jan 21, 2017)

Well, I've been needing to get the flue pipe extended higher. Actually other than a little trim around the door, this is the last piece of this puzzle. Been a heck of a learning experiment. thanks to all who helped answer questions along the way!



Flue pipe shouldn't rot away anytime soon. Schedule 40 6" is probably over kill...


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 4, 2017)

Will be updating all the pictures in this thread, since photobucket is completely retarded...


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## super3 (Dec 6, 2017)

Hey Levi


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 6, 2017)

super3 said:


> Hey Levi


Hey! Been a while!


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## siouxindian (Dec 6, 2017)

the only picture i can see is the last 1.


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 6, 2017)

siouxindian said:


> the only picture i can see is the last 1.


Once I figure out how to edit old posts, I will fix the pics. Photobucket wants $499 a year now to host images. Not from me they're not!


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## NSMaple1 (Dec 6, 2017)

Ya, Photobucket sucks. Plain & simple. They screwed my stuff up too. Pretty much blackmail imo.


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 9, 2017)

Well that sucked! 4 hours wasted because of photobucket.... BUT, ALL THE PICS ARE WORKING AGAIN! Thanks to the admin for granting me the temporary edit capabilities to fix this thread!


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## Hddnis (Dec 10, 2017)

Thanks for taking the time to do that.

I say eff PhotoBucket and the whorse they rode in on. Crapped all over hundreds of threads I had on dozens of forums. I can't go back and fix any of them, but I can promise there is also nothing photobucket can do to get back in my good graces.


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## breymeyerfam (Jan 15, 2018)

Well, I had the first issue with the boiler last night. A little creosote build up on the damper. Damper door stuck to the blower causing the solenoid to burn up. I pried the door open and sprayed it down with wd40 and replaced the solenoid. Luckily I had bought 2 when I build it...

Anyone else ever have this failure mode? Are most damper doors metal on metal? Did my rubber gasket cause the issue, or would this have happened with metal on metal?


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## dave_dj1 (Jan 16, 2018)

I would be more concerned at how the creosote got in there in the first place. Seems counter productive to have it flow out into the draft area. You may have to do some "duct work" and get the damper up higher or at a different angle?


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## Jakers (Jan 16, 2018)

It's a really common problem to get creosote in there. OWB's are really dirty pigs inside due to having a Firefox that's always "cold" compared to the rest of the fire. When they go to idle, the fire does down, and the wood goes to smouldering with no flow to carry the smoke away. Pretty common replacement part for most OWB owners so I'd just get another one to have on hand for whenever this one fails


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## Babalugatz (Mar 3, 2018)

An interior baffle plate in the comb. chamber woulda been smart. Aquatherm (I was a dealer/installer) had a removable baffle that ran just short of the burn chamber. That way the fire didn't go unrestricted right up the vent stack. Had to go up the void in the back, then out


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## Babalugatz (Mar 3, 2018)

Just my 2 cents...That long vent pipe, uninsulated , is gonna give you plenty headaches. It'll become an afterburner like you never seen, when the creosote flames up...& be an ass pain to brush/clean.....you might hafta cut in a tee for a clean out in the future. (I was a dealer/installer for 2 OWB brands for many years. Master plumber with a shop for 30 & counting) BTW, you kicked ass on the build. My hat off to you. I commented earlier about an internal baffle plate, that will add efficiency. ...Also, refractory brick (kinda late on an already- fired boiler) aids efficiency and protects the steel from acidic creosote/ash. Carry on, bloke


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## cantoo (Mar 4, 2018)

breymeyerfam, are you expecting any issue with your concrete pad lifting from frost? It looks like I did pretty the same as you did when I poured my pad. I have a backhoe so I installed my own lines. I dug down 7' for my insulated lines and left them sticking up at the back. I then back filled everything with pit run and A gravel. I then dug down about 8" for the owb pad and room to stand out front. I used 2x6 for concrete forms and the concrete is about 5" thick. When I did it the concrete was about 2 or 3" above the surrounding gravel. It's been about 4 years now and the pad has lifted up approx. 4 or 5". I wish now that I would have put styro foam down under and round the pad. It hasn't caused any issues yet with the insulated lines but I'm starting to wonder if I will have a issue soon if I have more lifting. I really don't want to but am wondering if I should just do some preventative maintenance and move the owb, remove the concrete, dig down again and install the Styrofoam and then pour new concrete? I want a little bigger area anyway. I never cheaped out on anything on my owb, well I thought I didn't but maybe I did in this part. You guys have warmer temps than we do but frost is still an issue there I assume?


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## cantoo (Mar 4, 2018)

Babalugatz, I also have a tall chimney but mine only has about the 1st 6" not insulated the rest is insulated pipe. I have never cleaned my pipe and have never had an issue with creosote, it actually seems to cut down on sparks coming out the top. I still have sparks but not as many.


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## Babalugatz (Mar 4, 2018)

cantoo said:


> Babalugatz, I also have a tall chimney but mine only has about the 1st 6" not insulated the rest is insulated pipe. I have never cleaned my pipe and have never had an issue with creosote, it actually seems to cut down on sparks coming out the top. I still have sparks but not as many.



Absolutely Cantoo....insulated chimney is always recommended. Theres a couple companies that make stainless steel, double wall insulated smoke pipe. Long Single wall condenses excessively = creosote


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## breymeyerfam (Mar 4, 2018)

cantoo said:


> breymeyerfam, are you expecting any issue with your concrete pad lifting from frost? It looks like I did pretty the same as you did when I poured my pad. I have a backhoe so I installed my own lines. I dug down 7' for my insulated lines and left them sticking up at the back. I then back filled everything with pit run and A gravel. I then dug down about 8" for the owb pad and room to stand out front. I used 2x6 for concrete forms and the concrete is about 5" thick. When I did it the concrete was about 2 or 3" above the surrounding gravel. It's been about 4 years now and the pad has lifted up approx. 4 or 5". I wish now that I would have put styro foam down under and round the pad. It hasn't caused any issues yet with the insulated lines but I'm starting to wonder if I will have a issue soon if I have more lifting. I really don't want to but am wondering if I should just do some preventative maintenance and move the owb, remove the concrete, dig down again and install the Styrofoam and then pour new concrete? I want a little bigger area anyway. I never cheaped out on anything on my owb, well I thought I didn't but maybe I did in this part. You guys have warmer temps than we do but frost is still an issue there I assume?


I don't think I will have an issue. My soil is pretty much all gravel. My house is actually with 100ft from an old gravel pit. Even if the pad heaves, I have a few inches of extra line under the boiler. Nothing was installed tight. However I will keep an eye on it now.


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## cantoo (Mar 4, 2018)

Babalugatz, I just made my own collar to fit some insulated pipe that I had laying around.

I'm all on gravel too, I blame the heaving on me putting the owb 10' away from my garage and there is no eaves trough on it. Snow melts on the black steel roof and goes into the gravel where it's cold and freezes which ends up causing heaving.


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