# New Ponsee Scorpion...



## 036Pro (Jun 24, 2013)

Here is Ponsse's new Scorpion harvester! What a machine!:jawdrop: PONSSE Scorpion product video - YouTube Products - Ponsse.com Thanks...


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## jrcat (Jun 24, 2013)

Price tag on that critter..... I bet is a quarter million.....if not more.


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## 036Pro (Jun 24, 2013)

jrcat said:


> Price tag on that critter..... I bet is a quarter million.....if not more.



I will try to find out...


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## Gologit (Jun 24, 2013)

From a business point of view...it's probably alright.

From a faller's point of view...take that thing and drive it over a cliff. And leave it there.


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## bitzer (Jun 24, 2013)

New Ponses are in the $4-500k range. They can play with all the small wood they want. Thank god for big timber and steep ground!


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## snapple (Jun 24, 2013)

Incredible machine. Can't dispute that, but I'm with Gologit. Of course, I'm of the opinion that technology development should have stopped in the early to mid 80s so take what I say with a grain of salt.


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## 1270d (Jun 24, 2013)

New Ponsse ergo 8w is in the mid to high 500k range same with most high end wheeled harvesters. I venture a guess that the scorpion will be mid 600's when it arrives in the us. 

I he been told the komatsu 941 is already in the 6's.

Any way you slice it a new harvester/forwarder team will run a million plus. Unless you go with non leveling tracked equipment. Then maybe 8or 900k


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## Oldtimer (Jun 24, 2013)

Seen that. Just a gimmick, other than you're looking right directly in line with the booms.
Sure looks cool, have to admit. But if I had CTL on my mind, in my area, it would have to be a leveling tracked machine like a Tigercat 830 or a Deere 759 or Komatsu 450EXL...with a fixed head...like a Quadco 5660..or Rolly-II. Just because of the ground and the nature of the average cut. No clear cuts to speak of, almost entirely thinning jobs where residuals need to be protected.

I can see that Scorpion being the mutts nutts down in Alabama and Georgia where they thin toothpicks by the 5 thousand acre block. The Ponnse is extremely fast.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 24, 2013)

$500,000 and change... a maintenance nightmare... what kind of payment 10k a month plus probably 50-90 gallons of diesel every day.... 

no thank you


I'll take my 4 gallons a day and 2-3 tanks of saw gas...


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## jrcat (Jun 24, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> $500,000 and change... a maintenance nightmare... what kind of payment 10k a month plus probably 50-90 gallons of diesel every day....
> 
> no thank you
> 
> ...



But what about its operator comforts and light foot print lol....that has to be worth about $350,000 right there lol


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## northmanlogging (Jun 24, 2013)

This is the PNW you really don't need AC if you need heat just work a little harder, skidders got a roof to keep the rain off, or just wear yer tin hat...

And that ole Deere of mine has only spun its little tires 3 times in 4-5 weeks, uphill in mud... still no ruts to be seen...

By the way some local ish tree service "loggers" did a job near here with a shovel, tore it up so bad they had to stick the brush pile on top of their ruts...:msp_ohmy:


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## roberte (Jun 24, 2013)

And all the bosses and captains paying the freight don't give fig what we think


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## imagineero (Jun 25, 2013)

Now if they could just get the width down to 3', I could really make use of a machine like that for taking out cypress pines in peoples backyards 

Shaun


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## dooby (Jun 25, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> This is the PNW you really don't need AC if you need heat just work a little harder, skidders got a roof to keep the rain off, or just wear yer tin hat...
> 
> And that ole Deere of mine has only spun its little tires 3 times in 4-5 weeks, uphill in mud... still no ruts to be seen...
> 
> By the way some local ish tree service "loggers" did a job near here with a shovel, tore it up so bad they had to stick the brush pile on top of their ruts...:msp_ohmy:



Most skidders and crawlers I've been around have reversible fans. That way they blow the heat away from ya in the summer!:msp_wink:


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## bitzer (Jun 25, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> $500,000 and change... a maintenance nightmare... what kind of payment 10k a month plus probably 50-90 gallons of diesel every day....
> 
> no thank you
> 
> ...



When yer crankin out $15-20k worth a wood a week those payments are a little easier I'll bet. Those boys are just dealing with bigger numbers. I will bet the margins are near the same though. The problem I could see is keeping the wood in front of you. I'll bet its easy to get into trouble really quick.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 25, 2013)

bitzer said:


> When yer crankin out $15-20k worth a wood a week those payments are a little easier I'll bet. Those boys are just dealing with bigger numbers. I will bet the margins are near the same though. The problem I could see is keeping the wood in front of you. I'll bet its easy to get into trouble really quick.



that's exactly right. the big guys came and went, i'm still here. only people made any money was dealers.


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## roberte (Jun 25, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> that's exactly right. the big guys came and went, i'm still here. only people made any money was dealers.



and the manufacturer and the distributer:msp_sad:


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

bitzer said:


> When yer crankin out $15-20k worth a wood a week those payments are a little easier I'll bet. Those boys are just dealing with bigger numbers. I will bet the margins are near the same though. The problem I could see is keeping the wood in front of you. I'll bet its easy to get into trouble really quick.



The biggest i ever got was a CAT 518 Swinger and a 225 with a stroke delimber and a cutting contract on top of that. That isn't allot for some people but for me 5-7 employees is to much. I was much happier just sawing and skidding my own and hiring either an operator or bucker. Man the head-aches---employees wanting draws every wk.,lead man is in jail,people tearin' up equipment,wining about pay,all the headaches w/ trucks,etc,etc. I'd rather work on a micro-crew w/smaller equipment.IMHO.


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## bitzer (Jun 26, 2013)

dooby said:


> The biggest i ever got was a CAT 518 Swinger and a 225 with a stroke delimber and a cutting contract on top of that. That isn't allot for some people but for me 5-7 employees is to much. I was much happier just sawing and skidding my own and hiring either an operator or bucker. Man the head-aches---employees wanting draws every wk.,lead man is in jail,people tearin' up equipment,wining about pay,all the headaches w/ trucks,etc,etc. I'd rather work on a micro-crew w/smaller equipment.IMHO.



I have talked to guys that tried to run several crews and the headaches involved. It doesn't sound like fun. I know that a good harvester and double bunk forwarder can crank out 150 to 200 cords of pulp around here. At $100 per cord roughly that the $15-20k. After the trucking and the stumpage you are probably down to $50-$60 per cord. Who wants to sit in a machine all day playing with small wood though?


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

:cool2: didn't mean to get on a rant. The one thing about being an owner/operator/faller/bucker or a 2-3man gig is the quality tends to hold the margin and you can make a few ball games. Payments/leases have kept me from a few of the kids games over the years. so now its a chain saw for me. That new Ponsee might as well be a space shuttle.lol. Not to steal this thread but whats every bodies opinions on the little harvester heads that Hahn puts out. Whats the best bang for the buck? In my situation it would be used more at the landing than anywhere else.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 26, 2013)

100 a cord? 20 a ton here. don't know bout that machine doob, but I bought my bell for cheap and it comes in handy for pine and saw timber. any thing under 25" and I can top with it to.


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> 100 a cord? 20 a ton here. don't know bout that machine doob, but I bought my bell for cheap and it comes in handy for pine and saw timber. any thing under 25" and I can top with it to.


this is gonna be married to a yarder-limbing top logs and pulling the shoot clean. i Don't think a Bell would fit most typical yarder landing applications but thanks for the input. Gonna need to be a dangle head, just won't be able to buy into the newer stuff. Found an Kesla/Hyundai set up(about 15 yrs. old) finals are shot in carrier, though.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 26, 2013)

dooby said:


> this is gonna be married to a yarder-limbing top logs and pulling the shoot clean. i Don't think a Bell would fit most typical yarder landing applications but thanks for the input. Gonna need to be a dangle head, just won't be able to buy into the newer stuff. Found an Kesla/Hyundai set up(about 15 yrs. old) finals are shot in carrier, though.



no I don't expect it would. you on steep ground then?


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> no I don't expect it would. you on steep ground then?



Yep- Am trying to piece together a crew and machines for some yellow pine and fir in eastern Montana. As soon as my knee heals that is!:bang: If everything doesn't go just right then i will have to wait till it is(next spring). and cutting till then ain't so bad either.


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

To add to this. I may very well have to pull away with a skidder and buck w/a chainsaw. But, the only way i can compete is by acquiring a machine that was top of the line, say 10 yrs. ago; and build it up as the $$$ is earned. No silver linings here. It's all by slow and steady jerks- Although that Ponsee is really nice:msp_smile:


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 26, 2013)

it's hard to compete with those that will "do it cheaper" and big mills. I been doin slow jerks for years, but I got no payments.


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> it's hard to compete with those that will "do it cheaper" and big mills. I been doin slow jerks for years, but I got no payments.



That's my angle on the competition. Most of them that are loggin' got the mindset that yarder logging is to hard so they won't try it or have already quit it. The mill i am working with has over 4 million ft. of line ground and can't seem to find anyone willing to yard it. Hope I get to try.:cool2:


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## northmanlogging (Jun 26, 2013)

A guy could pick up an old yarder for under 40k. Find a couple few good guys a shovel and line up a few trucks and make one Hel of a go at it... say a crew of 6-7 depending how the cutters are arranged. Just say'n...

I've managed to not be under contract with any mills (wouldn't even know how to get one) but if it meant I could go full time and still pay my bills on a reasonable schedule... I just might do it.


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## dooby (Jun 27, 2013)

Northmanlogging- You make it sound like its gonna came out of a pop up book w/ pixxee dust. LOL . :msp_smile: To find a willing crew is the toughest hurdle. Most all the kids nowadays are splittin' for the oil patch as soon as they are 18. Won't need to worry about trucks, the mill has self-loaders under contract. Have a Ts 8 to pull the wood away from the yarder. Oh! It's a 6.5 7.5 hr. drive to the wood. the mill is almost in the middle of that. It will take 4 decent hands or 5-6 if the crew has to be trained. We would most likely work 4 days on- three off. I will have to undoubtedly saw on at least one of those days to stay ahead. We are looking through whats available for yarders now. The better stuff(well maintained, not ness. age)is bringing top dollar. The ideal set-up for us is gonna be a skidder mount but i have been toyin' with the idea of mounting a tower on a front end loader like a 966-988 cat or a 644-748 JD. But that isn't practical for my $ situation. A decent tower would have to be stripped to build one. But It would make a very roadable yarder. It doesn't hurt to dream. But like i said earlier, all this has to be just right or i will just keep sawin' timber around here.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 27, 2013)

Its cause your in Montana, no good workers in Montana, just a bunch of sheep shaggers up there, look south to Wyoming...:msp_biggrin:

What about some of them little yarders like the Koller brand. They make one that is tractor mounted and most of em are remote control. Meaning less people on the landing or somthing...

And yes good equipment does pop out covered in pixie RUST...


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## dooby (Jun 27, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Its cause your in Montana, no good workers in Montana, just a bunch of sheep shaggers up there, look south to Wyoming...:msp_biggrin:
> 
> What about some of them little yarders like the Koller brand. They make one that is tractor mounted and most of em are remote control. Meaning less people on the landing or somthing...
> 
> And yes good equipment does pop out covered in pixie RUST...



Funny on the sheep joke!:jester: I looked at the Koller towers and the two used ones that are were aavailable here in the U.S. both sold recently. Good idea though. One thing about the pto towers is the line speed is way slow. That would make me insane, i watched the travel speeds on some of these on you-tube and the choker setter could do most of the falling past 450-500', and that is only 2-3 trees per turn or one nice 2-logger. maybe I could go sheep loggin'- my gran dad would roll over!LMFAO:hmm3grin2orange:


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## northmanlogging (Jun 28, 2013)

Yeah the PTO stuff is all kinda slow... when your starting out at a max of 540 rpms it makes ramping it up to something a little better very difficult. My home built gyppo yarder was originally pto powered, its faster now and still very slow... (the skidder at very low almost stalling out idle has a faster line speed...)


The self powered rigs seem to have better line speed, they are still small compared to the average Skagit or Madill though. 

I saw a good used Christy about a year ago for 7k on Clist... around a year ago... pretty sure I know the guy selling it or that bought it, when I saw it parked in his yard was about the time it stopped being listed?

I live by the motto of keep looking for it and eventually you will find the one that fits you and your budget. Took me 3-4 years to find a good skidder I could afford.


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## dooby (Jun 28, 2013)

I hear ya. Like i said though, it will happen right or the whole thing will have to wait. I know i am one of the kings of spontaneous financial adventures and for some reason am not wanting to rush into this. It's time to walk down to that field, and not run.LOL. Only thing in a hurry is the wood. The majority of it is starting to die. most of the timber is decent, the loads should avg. 20-30 logs per 27-ton load avg. That's the other reason nothing very micro will work. The wood is heavy.We can take a butt log off in the brush but the limbs /tops go to the landing.


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## 036Pro (Jun 28, 2013)

:arg::msp_flapper::goat:


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## northmanlogging (Jun 28, 2013)

Tell ya what you buy me one of them fancy scorpion things I'll review it and let you have your thread back:msp_thumbsup:


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## 1270d (Jun 28, 2013)

Scorpion looks pretty good if they keep the cost reasonable. In order to run a decent sized head you need to get the scorpion king though. I'm sure that runs up the cost a bunch more. According to their site it can carry an h7 head which is about the size you d want in our hardwoods. Sounds like the same engine pump combo as the ergo so not really any fuel savings over current models.

And what happens when the wishbone over the cab cracks up and the main is in your lap?

Never buy a first run model. Let others work the bugs out.


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## dooby (Jun 28, 2013)

036Pro said:


> :arg::msp_flapper::goat:



IDGARA_- yor thread stunk and i'm to lazy to start a new one ! Or type the word "your" right either. LOL.


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## 036Pro (Jul 12, 2013)

Thanks everybody including dooby!:msp_thumbsup: Its all good!:msp_thumbsup: Here in Finland we pay for the harvester in 2-3 years! About the 3rd year,we decide to trade for new one or keep & rebuild! These machines operate usually two 12hr shifts 7 days a week... Minus thaw time/spring time & breakdowns/service. It will be awhile before me or anyone gets in the seat in the near future! They are turning them out very slowly. Filling pre-orders first. I will post when hear of someone talking about it or if I get the chance to get in the seat! Thanks!


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## dooby (Jul 12, 2013)

036Pro said:


> Thanks everybody including dooby!:msp_thumbsup: Its all good!:msp_thumbsup: Here in Finland we pay for the harvester in 2-3 years! About the 3rd year,we decide to trade for new one or keep & rebuild! These machines operate usually two 12hr shifts 7 days a week... Minus thaw time/spring time & breakdowns/service. It will be awhile before me or anyone gets in the seat in the near future! They are turning them out very slowly. Filling pre-orders first. I will post when hear of someone talking about it or if I get the chance to get in the seat! Thanks!



That's a lot of use. Night logging used to popular in the N.W.USA but not so much now here in my area(Mt.) Didn't mean to jack your thread. I created a new one. Sorry I sounded a little gruff. How popular is yarder logging in Finland ?


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## 036Pro (Jul 12, 2013)

dooby said:


> That's a lot of use. Night logging used to popular in the N.W.USA but not so much now here in my area(Mt.) Didn't mean to jack your thread. I created a new one. Sorry I sounded a little gruff. How popular is yarder logging in Finland ?


 Almost unheard of in Finland and Sweden, but poplar in Norway! Look at this- grapple t3 - YouTube Enjoy!


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## dooby (Jul 12, 2013)

Ya- this guys video's are neet. It's where my ultimate yarder idea started. Had better quit w/ the yarder bit this is a Ponsee thread.LOL:hmm3grin2orange:


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## OlympicYJ (Jul 12, 2013)

bitzer said:


> I have talked to guys that tried to run several crews and the headaches involved. It doesn't sound like fun. I know that a good harvester and double bunk forwarder can crank out 150 to 200 cords of pulp around here. At $100 per cord roughly that the $15-20k. After the trucking and the stumpage you are probably down to $50-$60 per cord. Who wants to sit in a machine all day playing with small wood though?



Hey bitz how many cord is in a thousand bd ft? I don't know the conversion. But you're right about the thinning contractors making about 10K a week gross if I remember correctly. We figured out what we are paying ours a week minus costs and such... At first the margins seem really small but then once you do the math it works out okay. You just can't be dumb in the business and depriciate and write stuff off as much as you can!


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## roberte (Jul 12, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Hey bitz how many cord is in a thousand bd ft? I don't know the conversion. But you're right about the thinning contractors making about 10K a week gross if I remember correctly. We figured out what we are paying ours a week minus costs and such... At first the margins seem really small but then once you do the math it works out okay. You just can't be dumb in the business and depriciate and write stuff off as much as you can!



Ok, 1.536 thousand per cord

Based on 4x4x8 eq 128

1x1x12x8/12 eq 8
8x48x4 eq 1536 bf 

Someone check me... I could be dumb.


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## 036Pro (Jul 13, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Hey bitz how many cord is in a thousand bd ft? I don't know the conversion. But you're right about the thinning contractors making about 10K a week gross if I remember correctly. We figured out what we are paying ours a week minus costs and such... At first the margins seem really small but then once you do the math it works out okay. You just can't be dumb in the business and depreciate and write stuff off as much as you can!


Hei! The answer to your question is; 1000board feet = 0.651041667 cord, 6 tons of logs to make 1 MBF of wood. Disclaimer these are approx., lots of things could affect this calculation- species of wood, for one! But can get you into ball-park... 
When things get complicated, use this crutch- Convert thousand board feet <?> cord ? Miscellaneous Converters ? Lumber Volume Measures ? Compact Calculator Remember- we are here to help each other... Thanks!


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