# Biggest tree I've ever cut down



## Yellowbeard (Mar 1, 2014)

I'm not going to end up milling this, probably, but I got suckered into cutting down this 3' red oak today. Thought I'd post pics. I was quite nervous.

The 075 kept dying on me in the middle of cutting. Assuming I just don't have it tuned quite right but any advice would be welcome. It may have just been because it was a lot of very hard wood. After tackling that monster I am definitely buying a full wrap handle. Does anyone sell parts around here or should I just get them on ebay?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## SDB777 (Mar 1, 2014)

Fun ain't it?!?!?!

Scott (gets in your blood) B


----------



## Yellowbeard (Mar 1, 2014)

It was fun all right. I've cut down big oaks before but with my little 028WB and a 16" bar. 36" bar is a whole other story.

OTOH, with a tree this size I kept thinking "If this thing decides to go a different direction than I want it to, don't even bother calling an ambulance - I'll be done."


----------



## Yellowbeard (Mar 1, 2014)

Hey Scott, I just realized we're in the same state. Go Hogs!


----------



## psgflier (Mar 2, 2014)

You always get nervous cutting down a big tree if you don't do it very often, but it's actually safer than small trees. You have more control with the cut, and mass is going to go where it's going to go.


----------



## Yellowbeard (Mar 2, 2014)

It definitely went exactly where I pointed it.


----------



## Dave Boyt (Mar 5, 2014)

You're still standing & the tree isn't. Good job. Those limby ones can be tricky because it is hard to know exactly how the mass of the branches makes it want to fall. Plastic felling wedges are cheap insurance, and I seldom cut large trees without them.

My son is a razorback-- couldn't be prouder!


----------



## Mike Van (Mar 7, 2014)

Wedges & a mallet, priceless. Your dying 075 could be anything from a bare wire to a fuel problem, but i'd fix it before I did anymore falling. The 'full wrap' handle helps how? Of the hundreds i've dropped, some 5 footers in there, I've never wished yet for a full wrap handle.


----------



## Dave Boyt (Mar 7, 2014)

Looking at the pictures, my biggest concern is the triangular hinge. Try to keep the bar parallel to the notch when you make the back cut or the bore cut so the hinge is nice and straight. The tree will fall more predictably. Rule of thumb is the hinge should be about 10% the diameter of the tree at breast height (2" hinge for a 20" dbh tree). There are times when you can use a triangular hinge, but that is a more advanced technique. I agree with fixing the saw. You don't want it to die on you and force you to leave a tree that is almost ready to come down.


----------



## SDB777 (Mar 11, 2014)

Yellowbeard said:


> Hey Scott, I just realized we're in the same state. Go Hogs!




I'm not a super big Hogs fan, seems they 'choke' a lot.....hard to 'stay on board'. Especially when you're a transplant from the northeast!

Still cutting big'uns?!?!?!




Scott (knocked a 44dbh down today) B


----------



## Yellowbeard (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for the advice, Dave. However, you lost me a bit and I want to clarify. You're saying that if this tree were 36" at breast height (by which I take you to mean about at my nipples - a strange measure as people are different heights, but I understand) then the notch I made should have only been 3.6" deep? Then everything else would be back cut? That surprises me. 

Let me go over what I did (mainly because I am really attached to my arms, legs, and life so I would not want to do this incorrectly):

I cut a notch by first cutting perpendicular to the trunk about 33-40% of the way through the tree. I then cut down at about a 40 degrees until I connected with the back of the first, perpendicular cut. 

I then went around to the other side of the tree and started a bit higher than the original perpendicular cut and back cut down toward it at an angle of about 20-25 degrees. I have seen other people make this cut also perpendicular to the ground but I have always cut it at an angle. I think that's one's of the things you are telling me not to do (cut it at an angle) but I am surprised at what I take to be your meaning about the initial notch cut being so small. Am I reading that correctly?


WAIT - just re-read. You're saying that I should have kept the hinge itself straight, right? I agree with that. It was very hard to judge by that point, I was tired (and coming down with a cold, it turned out) and the 075 was giving me fits keeping it started and running. I actually /started/ with a plastic wedge but I couldn't keep the saw running in the back cut and had to keep taking the wedge in and out. Normally I would have used one.

The rule of thumb for the hinge size makes sense now as well. What about the way I make back-cuts at an angle instead of parallel (but higher) to the original notch cut. Thoughts? 

Thanks! Don't want to die.

Scott. Yes. The Hogs have been more full of "choke" of late than full of win. It's too bad.


----------



## Yellowbeard (Mar 25, 2014)

Mike Van said:


> Wedges & a mallet, priceless. Your dying 075 could be anything from a bare wire to a fuel problem, but i'd fix it before I did anymore falling. The 'full wrap' handle helps how? Of the hundreds i've dropped, some 5 footers in there, I've never wished yet for a full wrap handle.



In this case, Mike, it was because of ill-preparedness on my part. I started out with my 24" bar because I only had milling chain for my 36" bar. So I started the cut with too small a bar and then intended to move around to the other side and finish the cut. However, doing that required turning the saw over which would have been a lot easier with a full wrap handle. When I realized this was not going to work, I went back to town and bought a 36" cross cut chain and finished the job with the right size bar. In that case, I agree with you - full wrap not needed.


----------



## SDB777 (Mar 25, 2014)

Had a challenge or two today....

American Sweetgum 37"DBH
Challenge you ask? Oh the center was pretty much rotted out. Maybe 2/3 rot....certainly gets the 'pucker factor' working overtime.
Thankfully, it went right down the ditch I wanted it in.

Lollobby Pine 30"DBH
Challenge you ask? The tree was 90' tall and dead. I typically would go up the tree and 'clean it up' a bit, but I figured the road wasn't that well used....so I just dropped it. Thankfully it only snapped in three places while crumbing down in a 'control manner'.


Glad to hear you are still having some 'felling fun'!!!





Scott (can never have too many loops) B


----------



## Dave Boyt (Mar 27, 2014)

Yellowbeard, dbh is officially measured at 4.5' above the ground. Your notch sounds about right depth, though I use a 70 degree angle on the notch. As soon as that notch closes up when the tree is falling, everything else is gravity. The 70 degree notch holds it almost all the way to the ground. I don't understand your comment about turning the saw over to cut from the other side of the tree. I work from both sides of trees and have never had to turn the saw over. Even if the bar reaches all the way through I pick the side to cut on based on hazards (mostly dead branches, which can also kill you). I have always used a half-wrap handle. Full wrap would get in the way too much.

The only advantage I can see to making the back cut at an angle is that you can do it from a standing position, which would let you move away from the tree a little quicker when it starts to fall. I run a portable band sawmill, and think about milling the log before even starting up the chain saw. An angle down would lose too much wood, and the butt would have to re-cut to straighten it out before milling. The angled back cut also would require you to judge the angle correctly, in order to leave the right amount of hinge, which may be why your hinge was angled. I make a horizontal back cut. If a wedge is required, I simply tap it in behind the saw to take the pressure off, finish the back cut, then pull the saw out, and finish driving in the wedge to fell the tree. My back cuts, by the way, are lined up with the hinge, not above or below it.

I looked through Youtube to see if I could find a video that describes the technique, and this one comes close.  This is the technique use by Game of Logging, which I highly recommend. Biggest difference is that I usually cut a lot closer to the ground.

A few tips on staying alive (others will have more, I'm sure):
1) Get protective gear-- logger's helmet, chaps & steel toe boots
2) Get your saw running reliably
3) Sounds like you were running as rough as your saw-- walk away and do the job when you're up to it, both mentally & physically
4) Look up for dead branches & vines. They kill more loggers than chain saws do.
5) Have your escape route planned out-- preferably about 45 degrees from behind the fall-- before you start to cut
6) GET TRAINING. Game of Logging is some of the best training you can get, and will change the way you cut trees.


----------



## Yellowbeard (Mar 27, 2014)

Dave Boyt said:


> Yellowbeard, dbh is officially measured at 4.5' above the ground. Your notch sounds about right depth, though I use a 70 degree angle on the notch. As soon as that notch closes up when the tree is falling, everything else is gravity. The 70 degree notch holds it almost all the way to the ground. I don't understand your comment about turning the saw over to cut from the other side of the tree. I work from both sides of trees and have never had to turn the saw over. Even if the bar reaches all the way through I pick the side to cut on based on hazards (mostly dead branches, which can also kill you). I have always used a half-wrap handle. Full wrap would get in the way too much.
> 
> The only advantage I can see to making the back cut at an angle is that you can do it from a standing position, which would let you move away from the tree a little quicker when it starts to fall. I run a portable band sawmill, and think about milling the log before even starting up the chain saw. An angle down would lose too much wood, and the butt would have to re-cut to straighten it out before milling. The angled back cut also would require you to judge the angle correctly, in order to leave the right amount of hinge, which may be why your hinge was angled. I make a horizontal back cut. If a wedge is required, I simply tap it in behind the saw to take the pressure off, finish the back cut, then pull the saw out, and finish driving in the wedge to fell the tree. My back cuts, by the way, are lined up with the hinge, not above or below it.
> 
> ...





Thanks for all the advice and especially the videos. Normally I wouldn't work while getting sick but I didn't realize that's what it was and, well, stupid circumstance. Though I realize no circumstance is worth my life.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Apr 5, 2014)

Just a couple of comments. If you want to maximize the amount of the butt log, where you will have the best wood with fewest knots, cut low and use a Humbolt notch. This is where the angle cut of the notch comes from below, rather than normal where it comes from above. This is where a full wrap handle is most useful.

The depth of your notch, when falling a full tree, should be no more than 30% of the diameter of the tree where you are cutting it. This gives you an adequate width of hinge wood to control the tree. If you are falling a pole/stub with no branching, then the depth of the notch should be deeper, almost to the centre of the tree. This allows the hinge to be closer to the centre of mass and will allow easier falling.

The back cut should be 2" higher than the apex of the notch. This will prevent the tree from sliding backwards on the stump if the hinge were to break prematurely.

Finally, the backcut should be horizontal and not at an angle. It is all to do with geometry. If you think about it, when the tree starts to move, pivoting at the hinge, the backside of the tree is lifting. So if you are using a wedge (which you should always use), on a horizontal backcut, the backside of the tree will lift (all the force is in a vertical direction). If you use a wedge with an angled backcut, part of the force exerted by the wedge will be horizontal. If you think in extremes, a 45* angled backcut, half the force will be vertical, half the force will be horzontal, trying to push the base of the tree forward as well as trying to split off the angled part of the stump.

Hope this makes sense.

Here are the links to the Worksafe BC Falling and Bucking Training Manual. This is the standard that BC workers must attain to become certified. In BC, only Certified Fallers can fall any tree over 8" diameter (at work, this doesn't govern private citizens). 
http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_1.pdf
http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_2.pdf


----------



## SDB777 (Apr 5, 2014)

What became of the Oak you cut?
Did it ever get the chance for milling?


Scott (probably be some nice table tops) B


----------



## Yellowbeard (Apr 5, 2014)

SDB777 said:


> What became of the Oak you cut?
> Did it ever get the chance for milling?
> 
> 
> Scott (probably be some nice table tops) B


Unfortunately I was just felling it for someone else sort of as a favor. It /would/ have made nice tabletops though.


----------



## Karl Robbers (Jun 23, 2014)

Please don't take this as criticism, but as echoing what others have said regarding your falling technique.
You were in many ways very lucky that all went well. Setting up to fall a tree with a sick chainsaw, (don't ever knock a wedge out to retrieve your saw, pull it out backwards), when tired or sick is a recipe for disaster, particularly if you are inexperienced. Your hinge, or lack thereof was a real worry, from your photographs it was nearly cut through on one side. The hinge is really all that stops the tree falling in any one of 360 different directions, the worst of which is opposite the intended direction.
As others have said, no more than 1/3 deep for your face, I would usually cut the angle first because it is easier to line up a straight cut with an angle, than the other way round and leave the 10% hinge thickness - more if the tree is rotten or compromised in some way. Put your back cut in say 2" higher than the front and concentrate on keeping everything level and your hinge equal thickness side to side. Get a wedge/s in as soon as you can to support the trunk and ensure it doesn't set back on your bar. Make sure you start with a fully fuelled and oiled saw with a sharp chain.
The most important advice is this, which I tell every person I have taught to fall. If, when you step up to the tree and prepare to fall it, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and your butt puckers a bit. WALK AWAY. You have no need so great to fall that tree that it outweighs your sixth sense or lack of confidence. That's when accidents happen.
Good luck and happy falling.


----------



## cupar (Jun 23, 2014)

3/4 wrap gives more options on steep hills or co-dominant tree's when you need to use your saw only from one side. I think that is what the OP meant. I have wished for 3/4 wrap over the usual 1/2 wrap every now and then, however I don't know if I'd ever need a full wrap. In my area there's legal guidelines for felling commercially. Your notch has to be between 1/4 to 1/3 deep. Your back cut needs to be parallel to ground and even. Your hinge wood needs to be 10% or more. Your notch angle has to be as tall as it is deep or taller, aka 45 degree's or more. I always do 45 for a conventional, if I want to keep it attached to the stump I do a 45 and then come from the bottom at a 30 degree making a 75 however that can be difficult for new or inexperienced workers.

If you're falling for non-profit there are a lot of things you can do once your comfortable, if you're cutting a 36" tree you will want about 2-2.5" hinge wood, or else it won't want to go over as easy. 10% is a good guideline until you get into really big stuff. You can play with angles to either throw the tree (have it pop off the stump with speed), or have it fall to the ground and stay attached at the stump making it easier to firewood as the wood is raised off the ground. a non-parallel back cut and notch can angle a tree, and leaving more holding wood on one side can angle a tree. If your stump grinding or milling I do a Humboldt, leaves less wood to do your finishing cut on which is nice. I find you can do roughly 2.4x the tree to bar. A 20" can do a 48" tree. That however sucks and I wouldn't do more then 2x unless necessary. I don't know of a time it'd be necessary.


----------



## Yellowbeard (Jun 28, 2014)

Karl Robbers said:


> Please don't take this as criticism, but as echoing what others have said regarding your falling technique.
> You were in many ways very lucky that all went well. Setting up to fall a tree with a sick chainsaw, (don't ever knock a wedge out to retrieve your saw, pull it out backwards), when tired or sick is a recipe for disaster, particularly if you are inexperienced. Your hinge, or lack thereof was a real worry, from your photographs it was nearly cut through on one side. The hinge is really all that stops the tree falling in any one of 360 different directions, the worst of which is opposite the intended direction.
> As others have said, no more than 1/3 deep for your face, I would usually cut the angle first because it is easier to line up a straight cut with an angle, than the other way round and leave the 10% hinge thickness - more if the tree is rotten or compromised in some way. Put your back cut in say 2" higher than the front and concentrate on keeping everything level and your hinge equal thickness side to side. Get a wedge/s in as soon as you can to support the trunk and ensure it doesn't set back on your bar. Make sure you start with a fully fuelled and oiled saw with a sharp chain.
> The most important advice is this, which I tell every person I have taught to fall. If, when you step up to the tree and prepare to fall it, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and your butt puckers a bit. WALK AWAY. You have no need so great to fall that tree that it outweighs your sixth sense or lack of confidence. That's when accidents happen.
> Good luck and happy falling.



Well, first of all I /do/ take it as a criticism. Second of all, it is a TOTALLY VALID criticism and, as such, I very much appreciate it. I really couldn't agree more with what you say above. I did almost /everything/ badly. 

In my defense, I didn't know I was getting sick when I started out and then got part way through and, well... stupidity but I couldn't leave the tree cut half through.

What this experience taught me: 

1. I got rid of my 075 as being not up to snuff and bought a much better 084 (which I haven't gotten to use yet, but hope to soon).

2. I won't cut sick again - basically, I won't cut unless I am feeling at least 95%. 

3. I learned a lot from folks on here about how to fall (I always say fell - would love an English lesson on this) and several people sent me some videos of techniques which I did not know and will put into practice soon.

4. I will be buying a good set of wedges before the next time I cut a tree down.

In this case, the hairs didn't stand up, exactly. I was mainly just nervous because it was bigger than anything I've ever tackled before. I have cut down lots of trees (as an amateur) and they pretty much always go where I aim them. That said, I wouldn't try one except in an open field. There were all sorts of things wrong with this picture but, in the end the tree went where I aimed it and I learned lots of lessons without dying or even being injured. Any advice is VERY welcome because, while I may have some pride it is nothing in comparison with my desire to not die or get maimed. 

While I appreciate what cupar said above, at this point I am interested in the tree coming down not on me or anyone else. I am going to save any "advanced techniques" for later.

It seems, on balance, that I made my scarf cut too large and I will not do that again. The person I cut this one down for just left me a message wanting me to cut down a different one of the same diameter but that has at least 20 feet to the first branch. I will tell him that I will do that one but only in exchange for the trunk, which a buddy needs to make a hugeous beam for the timber frame house he is building.

ANY advice or criticism is not only acceptable but very welcome. Again, I have no desire to die. 

Thanks!


----------



## Yellowbeard (Jun 28, 2014)

Oh, one other thing: I k now this is the wrong place, but I ended up with a full wrap handle for the 075 and no 075. I would /like/ a 3/4 wrap or full wrap for my 084. So if anyone wants to make that trade? I can offer some boot if necessary as I think the 084 handles go for more.


----------



## cupar (Jun 28, 2014)

Yellowbeard said:


> at this point I am interested in the tree coming down not on me or anyone else. I am going to save any "advanced techniques" for later.!




Smartest post ever. I read that as, "I want to be safe." So thank you very much. Safety should be first, have fun with that 084, I've never run a saw that big. I'm not a fan of stihl besides the 880 and the 192/201. Also the old 200. However your set up seems great for you, of course could always use a 3rd saw


----------



## Yellowbeard (Jun 28, 2014)

and a 4th... 5th... 10th.... also a BSM and a kiln.


----------

