# The Savage the Pig and the Dolbeer



## lfnh (Jul 12, 2011)

Some history and pictures of logging, camps and mills of Eastern and Central Oregon.

Good reads esp:

Bullwhackers, Donkey Punchers, And Other Timber Beasts

Growing Up In A Logging Camp

Table of Contents


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## 2dogs (Jul 12, 2011)

I have not read this thread yet but it caught my eye. I have had the chance play around with a Dolbeer donkey engine just a little bit. This one has a capstan winch. I think I have a pic of it on PhotoBucket somewhere.

Nope sorry, not a worthy pic. The Dolbeer donkey is smoking in the background but I guess I don't have a better image.


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## lfnh (Jul 13, 2011)

2dogs -
Got side tracked looking for more information on the Dolbeers. For now, this is one of the better ones for pictures and operation - hope the link is the right one..

Mendocino Coast Model Railroad and Historical Society


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## Humptulips (Jul 14, 2011)

Probably not many know what a pig is. A pig was used in ground logging on the long skid roads in conjunction with road donkeys. It was similar to a small boat usually made of boiler plate but I have seen pictures of wooden ones much like a dugout canoe. It trailed behind the turn and was used to carry the dogs that attached the logs in the turn together when they were shipped back to the back end. I mention this not because I am old enough to remember but because I found one back up in the woods on the East Fork of the Humptulips years ago. Also a Bagley scraper there that they used to make the cuts for the long skid roads. That country was all ground logged and splash damed down the river to Grays Harbor in the early days. It has since then been all logged a second time and I don't know what became of the pig. Probably forgotten as a useless piece of scrap metal but a little bit of the history still resides in my brain.

Next bit of related history is what is a PF man (censors would get me if I spelled it out) and where the term chaser comes from? hint, all related to that pig. Who knowes?


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## lfnh (Jul 15, 2011)

Don't know how to start this one, but found this plain interesting. Historically, by many accounts, the Locomotive and the Dolbeer Logging-Engine (Donkey Engine) were the major invovations which revolutionized early logging operations.
Skagit River Journal had news of the first Dolbeer Logging Engine in 1884.

John Dolbeer received two patents very close together for his Logging Engine.
This is not readily apparent the Dolbeer history. However, some photos show the two variations of drive mounting.

The windlass style mounting was the first patent using a single windlass. Later variations show multiple spools of different sizes. These are shown in photos of the early main line using wire line (cable) with haul back for the pig.. 

The capstan style mounting seems to be associated with earliest Dolbeers. Heavy hawser (4"+) was used as the turn line, near as can be made out. Not at all sure, but may have been before the pig. Interesting, the Capstan was the later patent.

The first patent in 1882 is the Logging Engine with the horizontal capstan (windlass). 
The second patent followed in 1883 and is the Logging Engine with the vertical capstan. 

For reference, here are the 1882, 1883 Dolbeer patent drawings:

1882 Dolbeer 256553 Logging Engine Windlass Patent
1883 Dolbeer 290755 Logging Engine Gypsy-Capstan Patent

Additions, corrections, please.


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## lfnh (Jul 18, 2011)

*Dolbeer Capstan Logging-Engine photographs*

Here are some historic photographs take 1880's-1930's of Dolbeer's patented Logging-Engine manufactured by many companies. Photographs are from University of Washington Libraries, Special Collections Division. Photographers are mostly Kinsey and Ford.

Most of the early Dolbeer Logging-Engines (capstan or windlass) were for ground yarding. The earliest engines used heavy manila line, which was quickly replaced by steel cable.

First up is 1883 Capstan (vertical) Logging-Engine

Next photograph Capstan Mainline haulback was done using the horse (which also carried the dogs and chokers). Steam engine is lower left of bolier in photograph.

Capstan Crew Yarding Log included the Engine operator, Boilerman feeder/woodchopper, Capstan Tailer, Choke setter.

Yarding crew in action. Man second from left is hauling water for the steam boiler. This is probably an early Logging-Engine, since it does ot appear to have water tank for boiler feed. Horse for haulback of mainline is on far right of photograph.

Capstan Logging-Engines had plenty of power for yarding. Leading edge of log was trimmed to avoid digging into skid road and hanging up.


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## dave k (Jul 18, 2011)

Was Mr Dolbeer a timberman ? He had a great mind for sure. Thanks for the information and pics.


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## lfnh (Jul 18, 2011)

dave k said:


> Was Mr Dolbeer a timberman ? He had a great mind for sure. Thanks for the information and pics.



This is a brief biography of John Dolbeer from this source.

Will try to post some additional photographs later today.

John Dolbeer was born in Epsom <New Hampshire> March 12, 1827, the son of Nicholas Dolbeer and Esther Chase of New Rye. The Dolbeer's were important citizens in Epsom right through the turn of the century, including his uncle Jonathan, who left a diary listing the deaths in Epsom from 1819 to 1854, which was carried on by Calvin, brother to the John Dolbeer of this sketch. A product of Epsom schools, he left the family farm in 1850 at the age of 23 and set out to the California gold rush to make his fortune. By 1853 he had made connections in the Humboldt Bay area to establish the Bay Mill. Through failure and fires he survives and by 1864 teams with William Carson to form the Dolbeer and Carson Lumber Company. The company grows, and John Dolbeer becomes one of the most famous and influential personages in the Redwood industry in the State of California. His several patents showed his ingenuity in problem solving, and he had an impact in all facets of the industry, from the actual lumbering operation itself, to transporting and exporting - even owning the barks and brigs to bring the lumber to worldwide markets. Among his most useful and successful patents was that for the spool or steam donkey. This machine simply was a steam engine mounted on a wooden skid which would enable loggers to move giant longs across long distances to adjacent railways. 

In 1872, late in life, he married Harriet Schander, and in 1873 his son, Chase Dolbeer was born. He established his home on Lombard Street in San Francisco. Four years later, in 1877, the Dolbeers had their daughter, Bertha. Business continued to thrive, despite the fact that the Dolbeer & Carson Bay Mill burned down twice. It is about the time of the second fire that the personal life of Jonathan Dolbeer turns tragic. In 1879, Harriet commits suicide, and was called by the San Francisco Call "a suffering invalid" and in 1886, his son Chase was thrown from a wagon and died at the age of 13. John Dolbeer died in San Francisco from a heart ailment on August 17, 1902. The bulk of his estate went to his lone surviving daughter Bertha, and was worth nearly one million dollars. Additional sums were given to several charities, and relatives in Epsom, including his niece Ellen Dolbeer Hall (daughter of his brother Calvin) and her husband, Charles Sumner Hall. His family endured yet a final tragedy when on July 9, 1904, his daughter Bertha committed suicide at the Waldorf Astoria in New York City, putting the battle for the estate in the California Courts through 1908

.
Despite all the personal troubles, John Dolbeer left a lasting legacy in the redwood industry of California which continues to this day. His legacy in Epsom comes from a visit to his home in 1900. At the time, Epsom was searching for a new library building, and J.H. Dolbeer was on the library committee, which met during John Dolbeer's visit, and at which he was in attendance for a meeting. He offered, if the town would build, to furnish all the redwood lumber they would need to complete a building, inside and out. Well, the land was donated by Charles Sumner Hall, and Mr. Dolbeer was true to his word, and the current Epsom Public Library became a legacy to the town in which this respected and much admired person was born.
Picture top right - John Dolbeer from San Francisco Call 8/18/ 1902 from photocopy provided by David B. Harrison.
Picture bottom right - Dolbeer Steam Donkey, horizontal spool design, currently on display Fort. Humboldt, Eureka, CA. Photo taken by and courtesy of David B. Harrison, Belmont, CA.
Sources: David B. Harrison and "History of the Epsom Library: The One Hundred Years" by Peg Daniels.


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## lfnh (Jul 19, 2011)

These photographs are of the Windlass (horizontal drum) style of 1882 patent Dolbeer Logging-Engine. The earliest of these was a single drum. Horses were used for haulback of mainline to the lay.

Later, two drums allowed haulback of the mainline using the second drum which made for faster turns. Three or more drums allowed the transition of ground based yarding to High-lead yarding and rail - truck loading.


Early Single Windlass

Later Single Windlass

Cutting firewood with bucking saw for the boiler of single drum Dolbeer. 

Another way to buck firewood.

Easier firewood bucking. Drag saw on left appears to be steam driven.

Gasoline drag saw bucking.

Early two drum Dolbeer. Rear drum for Mainline is chain driven. Open side front drum may have allowed cable to go direct to rear drum for high speed haul. Front fairlead is set for side haul.

Early Large two drum Dolbeer

Splicing cable. Early two drum Dolbeer.

Felled, Side Lay, sniped end.  Haulback line can be seen on left. 

Long Haul

Nice view of engine on left. Heavy cable on this two drum engine. 

Logging Engine mounted on rail flatcar.

Loading rail car with tongs.

Donkey engine rigged for 
High-lead yarding. Massive fairleads on front and spark screen covering stack.

Empire four drum engine

Four drum Donkey set up for High-lead. Can't quite read makers name on flywheel. 

Gota have a dog in the crew.

The greaser in front of team swabbed dogfish oil or petroleum on skid road logs. Same thing was used on chutes. 

Photographs are from University of Washington Libraries, Special Collections Division. Photographers are mostly Kinsey and Ford.


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## slowp (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks for posting the pictures. 

The dog looks like the same dog in pictures that my mom has of her Scandihoovian family harvesting wheat in E. WA. I believe the breed was called, Daniel Spaniel.


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## lfnh (Jul 31, 2011)

*Manufacturers of Donkey and Yarder Engines*

Something ovelooked in the transition of single Capstan or Windlass Dolbeers to the new engines with two or more drums was the weight of the lines and rigging that had to be horse pulled back to the logs.

Logging Engines built with two or three drums allowed the steam power to haul out the Mainline to the next turn using the Backhaul line. This was way faster than horse back hauling the Mainline and rigging. Mainline speeds of 600-900 ft/min and Haulback speeds 1800 ft/min were commonly described.

The smaller Logging Engines were frequently used to skid logs from where they were bucked, out to the main pole road. Mainline winch capacity ranged from couple hundred feet to around a thousand feet. The Backhaul winch capacity and Straw line winch capacity would be at least double the Mainline.
Line sizes were commonly 7/8 - 1" for the Mainline; 5/8" for the Backhaul and 3/8" for the Straw line.

The larger Yarding Engines were used to haul logs off the skid road, over the pole road (or chute) to a yard for truck, rail, or river transport to the mill. Several Yarding engines might be used in series for very long hauls. Mainline winch capacity ranged from couple thousand feet to a mile or more. The Backhaul winch capacity would be at least double the Mainline.
Line sizes were commonly 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" for the Mainline; 5/8-3/4" for the Backhaul and 3/8" for the Straw line.

Depending on the boiler capacity, engine size and haul loads, four to eight cords of split wood are commonly cited amounts used per day. Oh, they be full not face cords..

Some approximate weights per foot, one can figure 1000 ft line weights and appreciate the weight of the Mainline and Haulback line on the ground to the logs. So, the reason for the Straw line drum was manhandling impossible line weights out to the logs.

3/8" 0.26 lbs
5/8" 0.72
7/8" 1.42
3/4" 1.04
1" 1.85
1.25" 2.89
1.50" 4.16

The line weight chart and winch line capacity calculator  (credited to Ingersoll-Rand).

LOGGING IN THE DOUGLAS FIR REGION is a very good read on Logging operations, equipment, and their costs using Donkey engines starting on page 50.

A previous post on Windlass Donkeys, referenced drag saws for bucking wood for steam boilers. Neglected to include performace of the drag saws. This information can be found on pages 45-46 in LOGGING IN THE DOUGLAS FIR REGION.

Some photographs of Donkey engine manufacturers:

Largest Washington Yarder

Clyde Manufacturing Company

Willamette Compound Yarder

Sumner Iron Works 2 cylinder 2 drum

Sumner Iron Works 2 drum

Sumner Iron Works Horizontal Boiler 2 drum

c1920 Skagit Gas Donkey, #1183


Murray Brothers Vertical Spool Donkey

California Iron Works Bull Donkey

Marschutz and Cantrell Improved Vertical Spool Donkey

1922 Washington Iron Works #3404 Three-spool Yarder

1923 Washington Iron Works 12x17 Simplex Slackline Yarder, #3643

1913 Willamette Steam Yarder #4703

Washington Iron Works Steam Yarder 3451

1928 Washington Iron Works Estep Diesel Yarder

and finally,

1906 Eureka Foundry Company Horizontal Spool Donkey where's Barbie and the Blue Wedge ?

credits:
Oregon State University
Washington State University, Special Collections
Everette Public Library
The Roots Collection


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## Gologit (Jul 31, 2011)

*lfnh*

Thanks for all the research and for posting those good pictures. Great stuff.


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## floyd (Jul 31, 2011)

I thinned some south of Baker(now Baker City) near some reservoir. One could still see where the rails had gone into the stand. Rails & ties long gone. Nice stand when we were done. Mostly 50' tall, never did a ring count.


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## John Ellison (Jul 31, 2011)

Humptulips;Next bit of related history is what is a PF man (censors would get me if I spelled it out) and where the term chaser comes from? hint said:


> I got nothin. How about another hint?


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## John Ellison (Jul 31, 2011)

Ifnh, good pics and info. I like on The Largest Washington Yarder where it says the crew did'nt much like it because of the 1 1/2" chokers. They had to be tuff. I was on some ground lead with an 1 1/8" choker and it was about more than I could handle. I can't imagine 1 1/2".


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## paccity (Jul 31, 2011)

not shur of type. but heres a pic with my great gramp in 36 blackrock or. 8th from right.View attachment 192501


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## lfnh (Jul 31, 2011)

paccity said:


> not shur of type. but heres a pic with my great gramp in 36 blackrock or. 8th from right.View attachment 192501


 
Amazing photograph been looking at it a while for all the engine details. that is a monster yarder. Look like whistle lines off on the left. 6th from right seems to be rolling a smoke. noon break lunch pails out. details of boots is some of best ever. Right up there with Kinsey's photographs. Can't thank you enough paccity. hope you don't mind the added comments.


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## lfnh (Jul 31, 2011)

Back in post #11, LOGGING IN THE DOUGLAS FIR REGION was listed as a good reference.

Forgot to include the following reference, as well:

LOGGING
The Priciples and General Methods
of Operation in the
United States
by
Ralph Clement Bryant​
The 500+ pages cover just about every aspect of early 1900 Logging in good detail, especially the chapters on Power Skidding, Yarding and Layout. The book is not commonly found, but fortunately it is freely accessible from here  and is easy to navigate through the book online (the pdf version is quite large to download).


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## lfnh (Jul 31, 2011)

*Riding the Dugout- Rigging Sled - Pig*

Couple of historic photographs of loggers riding the Dugout/Sled. Credits as given.

Darn sure had photo of an early iron Pig tucked away, but just can't find it.
If some has one, please post it.

Riding the Dugout
from Pacific County Historical Society and Museum 

A Ride to Work
Washington State University Special Collections - Darius Kinsey


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## paccity (Jul 31, 2011)

old gmc we have.View attachment 192633
View attachment 192634


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## Humptulips (Aug 1, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> I got nothin. How about another hint?



Well chaser comes from ground logging where on a long skid road the chaser followed the turn to the landing as in chased the turn. There would be a jerk line along the road and if the turn kicked out of the road someone had to be able to stop it so he would jump off and blow the stop with the whistle.
A PF man is another name for a chaser at the time and refers to the man riding the pig with the second word starting with f and seven letters long. Loggers have never been known for polite language more atuned to this forum.


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## lfnh (Aug 1, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> Well chaser comes from ground logging where on a long skid road the chaser followed the turn to the landing as in chased the turn. There would be a jerk line along the road and if the turn kicked out of the road someone had to be able to stop it so he would jump off and blow the stop with the whistle.
> A PF man is another name for a chaser at the time and refers to the man riding the pig with the second word starting with f and seven letters long. Loggers have never been known for polite language more atuned to this forum.


 
Couple of times have run across the chaser referred to as frogger. just wondering if anyone else has ?

This was in reading some old books and forestry/timber journals around late 1800-early 1900.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Aug 1, 2011)

Logging and sailing have a lot in common. The early west coast logging was down by sailors to harvest ship mast poles. A lot of logging rigging can be traced to ship rigging of the pre 1850's sail ships.


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## lfnh (Aug 1, 2011)

*Rigging Sled*

Couple of additional photographs.
Both are credited to Washington State University - Special Collections - Kinsey.

The first is a followup to the post of Dugout photographs (post 19).
The donkey engine is single drum Mainline and Haulback to the logs is by horse power.
This photograph clearly shows the horse hitched to the rigging sled. It'd be nice to see the hook or pin dogs on the sled, but still is a good picture.

Rigging Sled

The second is of a fast Washington Iron Works Yarder. The speed noted is just under 60 mph. So that gives new meaning to the term chaser. Paccity's photograph is on this scale.

The Flyer


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## alleyoop (Aug 2, 2011)

*that gmc is a 1918 nice pic paccty*

:msp_rolleyes:


paccity said:


> old gmc we have.View attachment 192633
> View attachment 192634


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## paccity (Aug 2, 2011)

alleyoop said:


> :msp_rolleyes:


 
welcome aboard alleyoop,i forgot the year in that. nice to have another nolagable person on this site. later bud.


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## Humptulips (Aug 2, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Couple of additional photographs.
> Both are credited to Washington State University - Special Collections - Kinsey.
> 
> The first is a followup to the post of Dugout photographs (post 19).
> ...



My Dad said he worked on a Washington Flyer for I think Schafer Bros prior to WWII. He said it was a big slackline machine with 2 inch skyline and 1 3/8 skidding line. I read in the days gone by column in our local paper of one being shipped south by barge from Raymond in the late 20s. It said it weighed 250 tons. He tells a story of yarding 4, 6 to 7 foot fir in one turn. Must have been a behemoth.


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## lfnh (Aug 2, 2011)

Any of the names in the Flyer caption ring a bell ?

Thanks for the information on line sizes. Alot of these kinds of important things were not wriiten down many places.


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## lfnh (Aug 2, 2011)

*Another Rigging Sled*

Another variation of the Rigging Sled that is slightly different than the others and a description of its use - kinda of - follows. The description is not for this particular photograph.

Credits as noted.







Credit


and a description of usage:

"In Its logging operations the appellant was rising two donkey engines, one, the yard donkey, to drag the logs from the place in the woods where they were felled to the main logging road or skidway, and the other, the road donkey, to drag them from the latter place to the milling plant of the appellant, where they were cut into lumber. These donkeys were stationary, and hauled the logs by means of steel cables long enough to extend from the engines to the location of the logs. The cable on the road engine was carried back by means of a second steel cable, called a "haul-back line," smaller in size than the logging cable, which was passed through a series of pulleys, fastened at intervals along the side of the logging road, to a point somewhat beyond the logs desired to be hauled, where it passed through a pulley called a "tail block," and was then fastened to the end of the logging cable. As the logging cable was drawn in toward the road donkey dragging its load of logs, the haul-back Hue was paid out, and was in turn hauled in when it was desired to haul the heavy cable back to the woods. It was the respondent's duty to hitch the logs to the heavy cable, follow them "to the dumping place, release them from the cable, and then follow the cable back for another load of logs. The chains and hooks used in hitching the logs to the cable were carried back to the woods by means of a sled fastened to the cable, and drawn back to the woods by the haul-back line. It was the respondent's custom to ride back on this sled. Just prior to the time of the accident a colaborer, working with' the yard donkey, acting under the direction of the appellant's foreman, without notice to the respondent, and without his knowledge, removed one of the pulleys near the tail block, letting the haul-back line drop on the ground. In dropping, the line caught on a projecting root, which held it in place while the main road line was being hauled back. It held in that position until the sled on which the respondent was riding reached a point near it, when it gave way, allowing the line to swing against the respondent with such force as to break one of his legs at the ankle."

Full Text and Credit


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## lfnh (Aug 2, 2011)

*Moving the Yarder and a Good Story*

Impressive photograph of moving the Yarder. One of the previous references (Corbitt or Bryant - thinking it was Bryant) cited some numbers on the amount of time it would to take to move a distance over flat ground versus a grade depending on size (tonage) of the Engine.

Credits as given.

The Move


and a Story to boot.


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## lfnh (Aug 4, 2011)

*Couple of good photographs from Humboldt County, Cailfornia*

Photograph from Humboldt County, CA of a Capstan Dolbeer Engine using manila Mainline. Dolbeer Engine is an early vertical rod drive. Mule is rigged with sawbuck saddle and likely carrying log hooks.







Long turn of Redwood on skid road. *10 ft dbh x 20 logs*.







Credit for both photographs:
California State Library


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## lfnh (Aug 4, 2011)

*Building Skid Roads*

Some photographs of building skid and pole roads.
Credits: Washington State University - Special Collections

Skid road 1900

Pole road 1921

First hand account of constructing a skid road. Also has good view of compound drive Donkey Engine on top of page 7. Skid Greaser is pictured sitting in front of turn with bucket and swab top of page 9.

Credit: Pacific County Historical Society and Museum


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## CoolCat44 (Aug 4, 2011)

*Many thanks!*

Fascinating pics and stories

Great!!! CoolCat44


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## paccity (Aug 4, 2011)

you guy's that are interested in the old iron and logging history pm me for info on how you can be involved in the presurvation of said thing's.:msp_smile:


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## lfnh (Aug 4, 2011)

Some more photographs of big logs, long turns on skid and pole roads showing transition from hook and pin to choker cables. Attempted to put these into sort of a related order.
Credits as sourced.

First a very short story on operating a first Donkey Engine

Willamette Donkey Sled sold by Hammond Lumber Co. Eureka, Cal.
Just in case you need to build one.

Inspection Day (you *know *who's running this show).
Frame similar to previous Drawing.
Mainline in, Backhaul out.

Snipped, pinned, and ready to haul.

Making up a turn with chokers.

End of the haul.

Long turn on Pole Road.Mainline out, Backhaul in.

Coupling Turns on Skid Road to next Donkey one mile distant.

18,500 feet of cable. Mainroad donkey engine on banks of Snoqualmie River. 

Big four drum Donkey

A visitor

10,000 ft scaled haul on Capstan

Yarding crew loaded 93 cars at just under 1,000,000 ft scaled in 8 hrs.

Hauling boiler water by cans.

Washing up


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## lfnh (Aug 4, 2011)

*An autobiography*

One person's life story from Appalachia to the Pacific North West running Donkeys and High Climbing. Simply told, but the descriptions of the work and travels are real. A long read, but worth it. Valsetz, Oregon mentioned.
Credit: As sourced.

Luck of the Seventh Son


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## Joe46 (Aug 4, 2011)

In the picture " end of the haul" , it was mentioned it was probably near Gettysburg, Wa. I knew it was near Port Angeles, and no longer existed. I won't go into the whole story, but there is tree farm near or on where the town was. It's for sale for 5.2 million If any one is interested. I'm willing to charge a very nominal fee for finding this for who ever has the money:msp_biggrin:


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

I just found another pic of the working Dolbeer donkey engine.


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## lfnh (Aug 8, 2011)

2dogs - Thanks for the photo. Nice to see an original Capstan Dolbeer in the flesh. Heck, it even has the swing fairlead complete with wear grooves and wood frame. Any chance you remember where the photo was taken and when ?


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## 2dogs (Aug 8, 2011)

lfnh said:


> 2dogs - Thanks for the photo. Nice to see an original Capstan Dolbeer in the flesh. Heck, it even has the swing fairlead complete with wear grooves and wood frame. Any chance you remember where the photo was taken and when ?


 
That photo was taken by me at Sanborn Park in Saratoga. I forget the year but I think it was 2009. My son and I were helping with the Lucas Mill demo and skidding out a D-fir on blacktop! ( Don't ever skid a fir with a cable skidder on blacktop, esp with an operator who doesn't know how to lift the log.)The donkey is owned by Big Creek Lumber Co. They also show it sometimes at the Santa Cruz County Fair in September.

Northern California Society of American Foresters

Home | Big Creek Lumber

How's this for technique? Broken chokers anyone?


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## lfnh (Aug 8, 2011)

2dogs said:


> I just found another pic of the working Dolbeer donkey engine.


 


2dogs said:


> That photo was taken by me at Sanborn Park in Saratoga. I forget the year but I think it was 2009. My son and I were helping with the Lucas Mill demo and skidding out a D-fir on blacktop! ( Don't ever skid a fir with a cable skidder on blacktop, esp with an operator who doesn't know how to lift the log.)The donkey is owned by Big Creek Lumber Co. They also show it sometimes at the Santa Cruz County Fair in September.
> 
> Northern California Society of American Foresters
> 
> ...



Like this set of photographs you posted. Good contrast between early and modern skidding.
Just need to add a Best (CAT) crawler with the arch in between the two. Thanks for digging out the _color _photographs.


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## paccity (Aug 8, 2011)

View attachment 193538
View attachment 193539
like these?


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## 2dogs (Aug 8, 2011)

A newer rubber tire arch rusting away near here in Big Basin SP. I would guess home made.


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## lfnh (Aug 9, 2011)

paccity, 2dogs - yes. great pics there. Thank you.


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## lfnh (Aug 9, 2011)

paccity said:


> View attachment 193538
> View attachment 193539
> like these?


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## paccity (Aug 9, 2011)

heres the wheeled arch we hooked up to the old 8 to run in the parade. that olrusty got more ooos than the pretty ones,.View attachment 193543


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## lfnh (Aug 9, 2011)

paccity said:


> heres the wheeled arch we hooked up to the old 8 to run in the parade. that olrusty got more ooos than the pretty ones,.View attachment 193543


 





makes the car on the left look like a tonka toy, LoL.
Thanks paccity - I like the old machines.


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## lfnh (Aug 9, 2011)

Stumbled across something on logging back a long time ago that maybe interesting.

from achival footage 
A film on logging operations in 1920's with commentary by people who ran the equipment back then -Steam Donkeys, Shays

Steam Whistles, Sawdust, and Salt Air
(Operations of the Pacific Spruce Corporation)
Authors: Robert E Floweree; Georgia-Pacific Corporation.; Siuslaw National Forest 
Northwest Interpretive Association 1991

Local library might be able to get an Interlibrary loan of the VHS or DVD
or this non-profit link.


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## alleyoop (Aug 9, 2011)

paccity said:


> heres the wheeled arch we hooked up to the old 8 to run in the parade. that olrusty got more ooos than the pretty ones,.View attachment 193543


 
Thats a good shot ,tell them about the guy that tryed to get beteen the cat and arch.:msp_sleep:


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## lfnh (Aug 9, 2011)

*Transition from Steam to Diesel and Electric*

Sometime in the early 1920's, diesel engine Donkeys started production. Washington Iron Works was one manufacturer. It seems this transition was accelerated during World War Two because of a shortage of help and increase demand for war supplies. However, it appears Steam Donkeys continued in use into the 1950's. Can't seem to find any records that show Steam Donkeys were in use in the 1960's.

Another question concerns the Steam Whistle used for signaling the Donkey Puncher.

What was used for a Whistle on the Diesel Engine Donkeys or the Electric Motor driven Donkeys ?

Was the Whistle line still used or was it replaced by something else and when did this occur ?

Been hard to find any records or descriptions about this change.

Some photographs of Diesel Powered Donkeys and Yarders.
Credits as sourced. Mostly Kinsey from Washingtion State University - Special Collections

Diesel donkey engine, Clemons Logging Company, ca. 1926 

Diesel Yarder (Willamette Iron Works ?) Clemons Logging 1930

Six cylinder diesel Yarder Schafer Brothers

Donkey engine and crew, Camp 3, Simpson Logging Company, near Shelton, ca. 1935

1942 Diesel Engine Powered Donkey

Diesel Donkey 1940's


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Aug 9, 2011)

There is a logging museum south of me that has a lot of old school logging equipment. It is a open air state park musuem. The name of it is Collier State Park. Found a youtube video some did, ‪Collier Logging Museum May 16 2009‬&rlm; - YouTube


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## dave k (Aug 9, 2011)

A good few diesel engines have a small compressor fitted on the rear of the alternator to create air/vacum for brake systems so I would think a small unit would have been fitted to power the whistle ?


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## Humptulips (Aug 9, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Sometime in the early 1920's, diesel engine Donkeys started production. Washington Iron Works was one manufacturer. It seems this transition was accelerated during World War Two because of a shortage of help and increase demand for war supplies. However, it appears Steam Donkeys continued in use into the 1950's. Can't seem to find any records that show Steam Donkeys were in use in the 1960's.
> 
> Another question concerns the Steam Whistle used for signaling the Donkey Puncher.
> 
> ...



Talked to my Dad about the whistles. (He started working in the woods in 1936 as whistle punk on a Tyler skyline machine for Duffy Bros Logging Co.) He said it took a few years to change over to electric but a lot of the steam yarders used a jerk line at that time. The jerk line was braided wire similar to a clothes line. It worked simply by the punk pulling the wire to make the whistle blow. You had to pull it up tight and tie it so it would blow with a short jerk. It took a knack to get it tuned so it would blow crisp whistles. Then there was the problem of the yarder being on one side of the railroad track and the logging being on the other. One had to tunnel under the track or go over high enough so the loads wouldn't hit the wire. They had small blocks to change directions. They started putting generators on some of the steam machines when gas and diesel yarders started to make there apperance. I guess they found out how good the electric whistles worked. All the gas and diesel yarders he worked on had air for the whistle. It was not uncommon for the early diesel yarders to have a marine diesel and they started with air so they had to have air anyway. 
The first radio whistles my Dad said he used were for a company owned by Bert Cole, the WA State Lands Commisioner at the time. Long story there about conflict of interest but that's a bit off topic. Anyway this was before transistors in the early 50s and they used flashlight batteries, 24 a day and they were very unreliable. Not sure when Talkie Tooters came out but I think in the early 60s.

On another note I'll draw your attention to that last picture, Schafer Bros donkey in 1942. It appears to be an old steam ground logging donkey converted to diesel. How can you tell? look at the fairlead on the head block. They have the haulback running through it and then up to the spar tree. The mainline goes straight from the drum up to the spar tree. This indicates it had offset drums. Only ground logging yarders and loading donkeys were built with offset drums. My Dad said Schafers done this a lot. They had an old bone yard of steam donkeys and would take a set of drums and convert to diesel, often times with poor results.
Really small sled too. I'm surprised they could keep it on the ground.
Notice the moving block laying on the ground.
I'm sure my Dad would recongnize some of the guys in the picture if the faces were more distinct.
I think camp 10 was on Garrad Cr South of Oakville where my Dad grew up. He would have been in the navy at that time.


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## lfnh (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks Humptulips. Never thought about the marine diesel air compressor for the starter.
dave.k in previous post was right on track with air compressor add-on for straight gas/diesel engines. Interesting.

So the whistle transition was from steam, then electric on the early gas/diesel units (1930's), backfitting electric to the steam units in that same time period, and finally to air on the gas/diesel units in 1940's? Correct any of this if it is wrong.

On the first radio whistle your dad used, assume is was vacuum tube design (or not ?) - what size were the batteries in the hand unit and what was the reliable range ? How big was it ?
Oh, one other thing. Please ask your dad if he remembers the year he first used the radio whistle.

Lotta questions...
Thank you.


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## Humptulips (Aug 10, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Thanks Humptulips. Never thought about the marine diesel air compressor for the starter.
> dave.k in previous post was right on track with air compressor add-on for straight gas/diesel engines. Interesting.
> 
> So the whistle transition was from steam, then electric on the early gas/diesel units (1930's), backfitting electric to the steam units in that same time period, and finally to air on the gas/diesel units in 1940's? Correct any of this if it is wrong.
> ...



Remember this conversion didn't happen all at once. Gas and diesel donkeys may have made there appearence in the 30s and even before that but steam was still being used in the late 40s and even into the early 50s by a few. So some companies forged ahead with improvements others took there time with change.

He said that first radio whistle had tubes, used regular d size flashlight batteries. I misunderstood him the first time he told me so what I said was wrong about the number used. it used 8 batteries every 2 hours. It was mounted on a back pack much like the military radios from WWII. Range he is not sure. He did say they were roundly cussed and dangerous because you never knew when they would quit working which was often. 

I'm not sure if when he first used a Talkie Tooter would be a good estimate of their time of entry into the market. He was climber at Rayoniers Camp 14 and later Crane Cr Camp from 1960 till 1968 so he really wasn't in position to use them. He's not sure when he saw others use them.


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## lfnh (Aug 13, 2011)

On the conversations to gas and diesel engines, there have been a few vague references to conversions of wood fired donkey boilers to oil fired boilers around this same time. One (and only) oil fired description was for cold starting a locomotive boiler using air pressure to spray the fuel (kerosene) into the boiler for pre-heating the boiler and bunker oil. Nothing specific about donkey boilers and if they operated the same way. I suppose a hit-an-miss engine with a compressor for air pressure could have been used, since hit-an-miss engines with water pumps were used to supply donkeys with boiler water (Timberman Vol 19 ). Just not sure if the oil fired steam donkeys got into the mainstream or not before or during the transition to gas/diesel.

Couple of photographs of a Washington Yarder with air controls and whistle control.
Credits: First and second.











Came across a photograph claiming the last pair of steam donkeys in active use on the West Coast. The year was 1957 on Ginger Creek operation of Oregon-American Corp. Can't tell for certain if they are wood fired or oil fired. Credit source.


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## lfnh (Aug 13, 2011)

Found a movie made by Angus Allison from original film taken of AP Allison operations up in British Columbia back in the 1930's on Queen Charlotte Islands. Thought it might be interesting since it covers alot in this thread according to his written commentary.
Couldn't get much past the felling and bucking part because of my slow dialup, so not sure how it turns out. Hope its good..
Credits:
Bella Coola Valley Museum
Hagensborg, BC

First site with written commentary, but the movie didn't work.

Second site of working movie.


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## Humptulips (Aug 14, 2011)

lfnh said:


> On the conversations to gas and diesel engines, there have been a few vague references to conversions of wood fired donkey boilers to oil fired boilers around this same time. One (and only) oil fired description was for cold starting a locomotive boiler using air pressure to spray the fuel (kerosene) into the boiler for pre-heating the boiler and bunker oil. Nothing specific about donkey boilers and if they operated the same way. I suppose a hit-an-miss engine with a compressor for air pressure could have been used, since hit-an-miss engines with water pumps were used to supply donkeys with boiler water (Timberman Vol 19 ). Just not sure if the oil fired steam donkeys got into the mainstream or not before or during the transition to gas/diesel.
> 
> Couple of photographs of a Washington Yarder with air controls and whistle control.
> Credits: First and second.
> ...



On the change over from wood to steam. Here's what my Dad said, By the thirties there were very few wood burners. They were only used at cold decks for the most part by then. Head trees had access to oil by the railroad. Some companies like Bordeaux piped oil out to there yarders in the brush others like NorthWest shipped big oil tanks back on the skyline. Cold deck donkeys had no easy access to oil so they burned wood. These were the first donkeys to get converted to gas or diesel. He said the oil burners had a small steam boiler that burned kerosene. They would fire it up and it would build steam fairly quick enough to work the injectors on the donkey and get it started. They also needed steam to preheat the oil so it could be pumped. He said Bordeaux had a two donkey slackline they would rig up a thousand or 1400 feet off the track and they laid four inch pipe to it to pump oil. It would not run unless warm. He said many a cold morning they would build fires under the pipeline to try and get it to run.
He also said when it came time to move it a 20 foot section of 4 inch pie filled with cold crude oil is heavy!

That last picture I think it is a safe bet it was burning oil. No sign of a wood yard.


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## wowzers (Aug 14, 2011)

Here is a steam donkey in a big drainage around here. I got a picture of and old jammer I'll try to load up too.

Forest Service - Steam donkey in the Marble Creek area


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## wowzers (Aug 14, 2011)

View attachment 194328


Here the jammer, didn't quite get the boom in.


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## Humptulips (Aug 14, 2011)

*A little more clarification on my last post*

The steam boiler they used to build steam to fire up the donkeys were called Moxley (sp?)burners.
I think a guy named Moxely invented them.

One thing I got wrong on my terminology. Steam donkeys needed steam to work the injector 
(puts water in the boiler) but I wrongly refered to the moxely burner building steam to work the injector. What they were used for was to heat the oil so it could be used in what my Dad called an atomizer that actually sprayed the oil into the fire box.


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## lfnh (Aug 14, 2011)

Thanks (esp your Dad) for the Moxley pre-heating explainations. Reading up on that now.
Funny, I was thinking how much those crude oil pipes would weigh if they had to be moved to a new location. 

Back in post 58, photo of Washington Yarder, the braided cord (both photos) on the floor and going to Whistle Punks hand is the whistle control. In the second photo, what is the 'control' box on the wall, about even with the Puncher's head ?

In the second photo, the Punchers hands are operating the winch drums and his feet the brakes ? Are the drum controls in fact air operated ?


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## 2dogs (Aug 14, 2011)

How much and what size lines did those machines have?


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## lfnh (Aug 15, 2011)

Washington IW among others had some big Yarders with drum capacities ranging 4000-18,000 ft of 7/8 to 1 3/8. Somewhere read the specs on some Yarders and the numbers are real. Couple of members (and fathers/grandfathers) ran these and posted.


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## Humptulips (Aug 23, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Thanks (esp your Dad) for the Moxley pre-heating explainations. Reading up on that now.
> Funny, I was thinking how much those crude oil pipes would weigh if they had to be moved to a new location.
> 
> Back in post 58, photo of Washington Yarder, the braided cord (both photos) on the floor and going to Whistle Punks hand is the whistle control. In the second photo, what is the 'control' box on the wall, about even with the Puncher's head ?
> ...



My Dad has been ill so he couldn'tlook at the pictures but from what I see now that you point it out the pictures show electric whistles. Not sure about a box but I can see the "bug" hanging in the line of sight of the engineer so it has to be electric.
It could well be air frictions as that's what it looks like however my Dad did mention that the steam yarders he worked on all had steam jams that set the frictions.


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## LoggingEngineer (Sep 19, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> Probably not many know what a pig is. A pig was used in ground logging on the long skid roads in conjunction with road donkeys. It was similar to a small boat usually made of boiler plate but I have seen pictures of wooden ones much like a dugout canoe. It trailed behind the turn and was used to carry the dogs that attached the logs in the turn together when they were shipped back to the back end. I mention this not because I am old enough to remember but because I found one back up in the woods on the East Fork of the Humptulips years ago. Also a Bagley scraper there that they used to make the cuts for the long skid roads. That country was all ground logged and splash damed down the river to Grays Harbor in the early days. It has since then been all logged a second time and I don't know what became of the pig. Probably forgotten as a useless piece of scrap metal but a little bit of the history still resides in my brain.
> 
> Next bit of related history is what is a PF man (censors would get me if I spelled it out) and where the term chaser comes from? hint, all related to that pig. Who knowes?


 
I think I found the same pig and Bagley in the last few years. The pig I found should still be there; was walking through GH Co. ground to get to ours, I don't think it's logged yet. The Bagley got hauled to town on a tilt deck....we still haven't donated it to the museum yet. I wish there was more of that old stuff out there still.


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## lfnh (Sep 19, 2011)

A long shot, but if anyone gets back out there or knows someone witha camera a couple of pics of the iron pig would be a nice addition to the thread. It'd also be better to see the pig next to a Dolbeer in working museum.


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## paccity (Sep 19, 2011)

heres a dugout. thanks allyoop.View attachment 199835


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## Humptulips (Sep 20, 2011)

LoggingEngineer said:


> I think I found the same pig and Bagley in the last few years. The pig I found should still be there; was walking through GH Co. ground to get to ours, I don't think it's logged yet. The Bagley got hauled to town on a tilt deck....we still haven't donated it to the museum yet. I wish there was more of that old stuff out there still.



That's a real interesting area. When they logged up river from the GH CO land you could see the skid roads well. They went from the river all the way to just below the top of the ridge on Cougar mountain, easily a couple miles. In fact I logged a patch at the top and you could see the old growth had been yarded down hill to the river.

I read a story about the outfit that logged that country. It made a good story but I don't think it was ever published and the fella that gave it to me to read is gone now. Probably lost forever.


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## Humptulips (Sep 20, 2011)

2dogs said:


> How much and what size lines did those machines have?



Reading another post and saw this. Thought it was worth a comment.
A lot of the information garnered from my Father.
He worked in what I would call the heyday of logging when railroad logging was king and ground logging was long gone. Highlead and skylines ruled so I won't be mentioning the ground logging machines. 
Most of the highlead machines had 1 3/8" or 1 1/2" mainlines and 7/8" haulbacks. In the neighborhood of 1800' and 4000' respectively maybe a little less.

Slacklines in those times weren't used that much and they were usually big head machines with up to 2" skyline, 1 3/8" skidding line and 7/8" haulback. He said there were also two donkey slackers using two highlead machines that had smaller lines but still with at least 1 3/4" skyline.

Skidders were used for downhill logging (not the rubber tire rigs of today, big yarders) and had either 1" or 1 1/8" lines. They had a large skyline that did not have a drum but was tightened with a heel tackle drum. Skylines ran from 1 3/4" up to 2 1/8". They had three drums a skidding line, haulback and a smaller slack puller drum.

Tylers were the big ones only used for swinging. They had 2 1/8" skyline that was stationary and tightened with a heel tackle drum. They had three drums all of them carried 1 1/8" skidding, haulback and hoisting line.

Also most places used North Bend skylines which were stationary and tighened on a stump and usually at least 1 7/8".


Loading machines had either 7/8" or 1" loading lines depending on the size of the timber and 1" or 1 1/8" spotting line. Duplex loaders were in favor when he started but phased out as Railroad went out and truck logging came in.

Just to give you an idea the absolute smallest chokers were 1 1/8" and he tells about 1 3/8" chokers on the slackline and 1 1/2" chokers on highlead sides, not every where but where there was bigger timber.


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