# tricky tree



## treeslayer2003 (Apr 30, 2013)

hey maybe you fellers can give me some advice on this one, got a beautiful poplar bout 36" butt 65-70 feet prolly 16" top straight as a arrow its in a ravine 30 feet wide 16-18 feet deep i'm thinkin if I throw it out either side it'll break if throw it up or down ravine it prolly hang can't take but 3 of 10 out of stand so can't just make room in ravine I really hate to bust this tree its a Purdy un no limbs or knots the whole length. got any pointers?


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## Spotted Owl (Apr 30, 2013)

Can you put anything down to bridge the draw? Or a couple somethings then use them for cushion for this one? Can you drag it through something else to slow it down? Can you start it down hill then walk it around side hill? Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?

Always lots of options to everyone who isn't there with you. Any photos, that may help?

Then sometimes things just suck and you have to do what you have to do. It's hard to watch a nice one have to come down and there is no place to put it, that doesn't require selling to diamond match company. That's pretty rare though.



Owl


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## hammerlogging (Apr 30, 2013)

if you put a humboldt in it and cut across the draw it will save out well if: the face closes and the butt hits the ground before the tip hits, and make the tip hit at the point where you dont mind breakage, like where the stem turns to pulpwood. I just cut 35 or so poplar trees in a SMZ crossing the draw with anywhere from 10 to 35' under the stem and 20 to 50' spans and none broke with this method, standard practice. If you did this with a conventional or open face they will break, it all about the butt hittin before the top. Can you practice on a less important stem first?

of course a safer bet would always to be to sidehill it on the near slope.


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## treeslayer2003 (Apr 30, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> Can you put anything down to bridge the draw? Or a couple somethings then use them for cushion for this one? Can you drag it through something else to slow it down? Can you start it down hill then walk it around side hill? Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?
> 
> Always lots of options to everyone who isn't there with you. Any photos, that may help?
> 
> ...



thanks for responding owl, I hadn't thought of making a cushion like that you got me thinking.
yea I know you can't save em all but I don't give up easy and wont let this one woop me either. 
figured you western guys might have a idea or two workin on them hills all the time I ain't used to
that its pretty flat here..... oh and by the way one of these days i'm gonna ask for a fallers term lesson not many of us over here some of the methods y'all name i'm un famillier [cant spell] with
but i'm lernen. that cushion trick might just work


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## treeslayer2003 (Apr 30, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> if you put a humboldt in it and cut across the draw it will save out well if: the face closes and the butt hits the ground before the tip hits, and make the tip hit at the point where you dont mind breakage, like where the stem turns to pulpwood. I just cut 35 or so poplar trees in a SMZ crossing the draw with anywhere from 10 to 35' under the stem and 20 to 50' spans and none broke with this method, standard practice. If you did this with a conventional or open face they will break, it all about the butt hittin before the top. Can you practice on a less important stem first?
> 
> of course a safer bet would always to be to sidehill it on the near slope.



I actually do use the humbold a lot just didn't know it was called that. don't think there is any pulp to this one looks like all grade to the fork. really would not be a problem but for this 3 of 10 thing seems because there might be some bird there we must leave 70% of canopy the ravine aint bufferd the whole tract must be done that way,never mind trees are mature and going down hill I suggested 50 % cut but forester quoted the law. its hard to put em down without damedge to other trees

butt hitting first does make sense


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## northmanlogging (Apr 30, 2013)

If you kerf dutch it all the way across (like yer slope cut came in a bit short of your gun cut) you can sort of jump it off the stump, hard to pull off with chair prone wood though. I'm with owl though side hill it if you can and give it a good running start to power though any of the hang ups. Its dangerous as Hel but if you stick with the stump until its committed and sever all the holding wood it can roll along until it hits the ground, only try that if there is no lose branches or neighboring branches caught up in it, even then keep looking up and be ready to run.


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## treeslayer2003 (Apr 30, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> If you kerf dutch it all the way across (like yer slope cut came in a bit short of your gun cut) you can sort of jump it off the stump, hard to pull off with chair prone wood though. I'm with owl though side hill it if you can and give it a good running start to power though any of the hang ups. Its dangerous as Hel but if you stick with the stump until its committed and sever all the holding wood it can roll along until it hits the ground, only try that if there is no lose branches or neighboring branches caught up in it, even then keep looking up and be ready to run.



i'm pretty used to cutting um off a lot of the grade here is prone to slab but not poplar I was thinking more hold for a slower fall but now thinking that would be mistake I see what your saying
bout jump it off stump I've done it mostly by accident ......kerf dutch.... like I said need fallers vocab lesson.......thred topic?


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## woodchuck357 (May 1, 2013)

If you are going to buck it, limb it on the way up, top it, buck it as it stands using a jump cut notch to make the logs hit butt first. Cushion sounds like your best bet if you want to pull the whole tree out.


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## northmanlogging (May 1, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i'm pretty used to cutting um off a lot of the grade here is prone to slab but not poplar I was thinking more hold for a slower fall but now thinking that would be mistake I see what your saying
> bout jump it off stump I've done it mostly by accident ......kerf dutch.... like I said need fallers vocab lesson.......thred topic?



There is a loggers dictionary on the site somewheres... may have some of the stuff in it?


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## OlympicYJ (May 1, 2013)

That or a new thread on just types of cuts (stating the name and how it works and is executed) would make a good sticky so a new member could be referred to it quickly and easily. Maybe try and limit the BS and jut give examples of the cuts? Just a thought. I myself sometimes get confuzzled when discussing cuts and I know a little but I'm no faller.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 1, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> That or a new thread on just types of cuts (stating the name and how it works and is executed) would make a good sticky so a new member could be referred to it quickly and easily. Maybe try and limit the BS and jut give examples of the cuts? Just a thought. I myself sometimes get confuzzled when discussing cuts and I know a little but I'm no faller.



oh yes i'd love to read that,being in the mid atlantic we don't hear those terms very often. I worked with a guy from Montana years back he toaght me some of it not a lot. timber faller is almost a ghost here now bunchers took over but they can't cut the big good stuff right. i'm 41, theres a guy 2 counties over bout 35 and that's about it but for a couple amish in del. and a few older guys that are about done with it. dinosours around here :msp_sad:

but I think i'd learn a lot from such a thred.....hint...hint :msp_biggrin:


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## strangersfaces (May 1, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> ......... Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?
> .........
> 
> Owl





hammerlogging said:


> if you put a humboldt in it and cut across the draw it will save out well if: the face closes and the butt hits the ground before the tip hits......
> with a conventional or open face they will break, it all about the butt hittin before the top. .....





treeslayer2003 said:


> .......
> ..... i'm gonna ask for a fallers term lesson not many of us over here some of the methods y'all name i'm un familiar........





northmanlogging said:


> If you kerf dutch it all the way across (like yer slope cut came in a bit short of your gun cut) you can sort of jump it off the stump.......





woodchuck357 said:


> ....... buck it as it stands using a jump cut notch to make the logs hit butt first. ........



*SWING DUTCHMAN:* A special falling technique which, when used properly, allows the faller to minimize breakage and maintain a lead. As with the Step Dutchman, this alteration of falling technique caused the tree to swing. The swing results because the holding wood on the lean side has been severed. The swing Dutchman does not utilize a step and will not pivot a tree as much as will the Step Dutchman.





*STEP DUTCHMAN:* An intentional alteration of standard falling technique to solve problems of maintaining a lead. The Step Dutchman is put in play by sawing off the lean side holding wood and placement of a step (rock, wood) into the face to force the tree to pivot to the desired direction.




*KERF DUTCHMAN:* A special falling technique in which the constant relationships of the face, holding wood, and backcut are intentionally altered to solve a particular falling problem. The faller can, with the use of the Kerf Dutchman, force a tree to jump off the stump. If understood and properly used, the Kerf Dutchman can in specific instances solve problems of breakage and crossing roads or creeks.

Haven't yet found a suitable graphic for the Kerf Dutchman....


How do "sniping the stump", "cutting across the draw", "kerf Dutch" and "jump cut notch" relate to either of these graphic descriptions? Somewhat? Not at all....?



Sources: 
Dept. of Labor, Logging eTool Glossary

Tree Felling Presentation.pdf, article by Tennessee Valley Woodworkers.org


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## treeslayer2003 (May 1, 2013)

hey that's a great graphic, I guess I been doin something very similer to a swing Dutchman for years. not sure how some of the other terms relate,perhaps someone with more knowledge will be along soon to help us out with that. I almost bet theres a book on this somewere out there.
imagine that me readin a book on falling tricks .....never to old to learn right. thanks for responding, hopfully this continues


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## strangersfaces (May 1, 2013)

TS,

I've had the logging eTool Glossary bookmarked for some time, but it wasn't until re-reading your thread earlier, then searching once again to find the Tn Valley presentation with graphics that the terms meant much.

The visuals begin to add meaning to the language of the experts here....


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## Spotted Owl (May 1, 2013)

Sometimes you can put a few more cuts in there under I think it was the number 3 cut. Don't take them over as far though, make each extra cut a little less that the one above it. Turn the face of the diagram upside down though, not sure how this could or would work with a conventional face. You can really walk things around with this. Be careful doing this though, if you take it to far or make to many the tree will take off on ya all by itself. If that happens drop your saw and run. It's not going to be a pretty affair and nothing close to fun to clean up. The few times I have seen it happen, it turned into a twisted barberchair sort of thing. Keep a back up close by that you can throw into it and bust it down, you don't want to have to get in there to cut it out.

Can you back slide on the stump? Conventional face on your lay side, keep it deep but skinny to break quick, and a humboldt on the back side. Then back into the matched cut on the back side in the humboldt. The angles should match up when the hinge breaks and slide on each other and some times you can gain as much as 30 of back slide. If you don't have enough ground in the lay sometimes this will extend this a bit to save as much as possible. Has to be an up hill lay for the best results, flat or side hill works just not as well. Think this through before you start, there will be no wedging or next to none, when you do this. I don't like it but it has it's place now and then. Be damned sure you can get out of the way, it will choose it's own way off the stump you don't usually get any say in that.



Owl


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## northmanlogging (May 1, 2013)

I'd be reluctant to leave a trigger on a tree I'm trying to swing, manipulation of the hold wood is part of steering it, with a trigger your to far away to get back to the hold wood in time, so your cuts have to be right from the get go...

The diagrams are always kinda tricky to figure out anyway until you sit down and really look at it with a tree you're ready to kill.

As far as conventional vs. humboldt... never tried swinging one with a conventional cut???

Sniping (from what I can gather...) is like taking an extra bit out of your face cut, sort of a third angle, Either in line with the desired fall so the butt can sit down faster or off to one side if you intend to roll it off the stump.

Slipping be it side or back... is just plain scary even when it works right, that involves intentionally making your cuts crooked as sin, and usually having the back cut lower then the face... not for the week kneed...

The bit Owl mentioned is referred to as the "soft dutchmen" really just a swing dutch with extra cuts for extra movement, you could even toss in a siswheel on the off side to get really crazy.

My opinion here (well it all is really...) I figure the dutchmen block is more for when I notice that I screwed up on my gun or there is something on that side I didn't notice before, otherwise I try and use cuts to swing em, blocks take extra time to make... and don't use rocks Odin's blind eye who keeps putting that in books anyway... yer face chunk is just sitting there use it.


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## HuskStihl (May 1, 2013)

Douglas dent's book, "professional timber falling". Got it cheap online. I couldnt get myself out of a wet paper bag with my saw most days, but now I know the names and techniques I can't execute. Invaluable for understanding wtf these guys are talking about:msp_biggrin:


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## treeslayer2003 (May 1, 2013)

owl, your really trying to help me out and I really appreciate it, I just wish I knew enuf about the differint kinds of methods your referring to to make sense of what your referring to ; clear as mud, but please don't be offended its my lack of knowledge that's the problem and i'm gonna fix that tho it might take me a while. i'm in no hurry on this stem, got plenty of work in this trct to keep me busy and no time limits. i'll review all this info as learn the terms thanks so much for your patience 
mike


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## treeslayer2003 (May 2, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'd be reluctant to leave a trigger on a tree I'm trying to swing, manipulation of the hold wood is part of steering it, with a trigger your to far away to get back to the hold wood in time, so your cuts have to be right from the get go...
> 
> The diagrams are always kinda tricky to figure out anyway until you sit down and really look at it with a tree you're ready to kill.
> 
> ...



all good info agree with all yea rocks don't go well with spinning saw chain. learning more every nite


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## treeslayer2003 (May 2, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Douglas dent's book, "professional timber falling". Got it cheap online. I couldnt get myself out of a wet paper bag with my saw most days, but now I know the names and techniques I can't execute. Invaluable for understanding wtf these guys are talking about:msp_biggrin:



yea guess i'll have to get that


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## strangersfaces (May 2, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> Can you *put anything down to bridge the draw? Or a couple somethings then use them for cushion for this one? Can you drag it through something else to slow it down?* Can you start it down hill then walk it around side hill? Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?
> ........
> Owl



Something like as demonstrated by "hotsaws101" is this video? Great viewing angle...
[youtube]EThx94ALoao&list=UUqt1Y1o8PLzt13pOm4TxBRQ&index=25[/youtube]​


northmanlogging said:


> .........
> 
> The bit Owl mentioned is referred to as the *"soft dutchmen"* really just a swing dutch with extra cuts for extra movement, you could even toss in a siswheel on the off side to get really crazy.
> .....



Another, showing his Soft Dutchman technique:
[youtube]tbN1sKN7IlI[/youtube]​


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## northmanlogging (May 2, 2013)

I wonder if that guy is a member here...


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## strangersfaces (May 2, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> ......
> 
> *Can you back slide on the stump?* Conventional face on your lay side, keep it deep but skinny to break quick, and a humboldt on the back side. Then back into the matched cut on the back side in the humboldt. The angles should match up when the hinge breaks and slide on each other and some times you can gain as much as 30 of back slide. If you don't have enough ground in the lay sometimes this will extend this a bit to save as much as possible. Has to be an up hill lay for the best results, flat or side hill works just not as well. Think this through before you start, there will be no wedging or next to none, when you do this. I don't like it but it has it's place now and then. Be damned sure you can get out of the way, it will choose it's own way off the stump you don't usually get any say in that.
> 
> Owl



Although his cuts in this video aren't shown clearly and he does use wedges to start the fall, is the method shown in this Hotsaws101 video a possible alternative, assuming suitable landing area above? 

[youtube]LLDEUZ6z7rE&lr=1[/youtube]​


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## HuskStihl (May 2, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I wonder if that guy is a member here...



It ain't me, but I sure wish I had skills and balls like that. It might be mass wine guy, or maybe Dano.


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## Spotted Owl (May 2, 2013)

Not me but he has some skills. Notice how far he put his saw away, so he didn't have to mess with it during his mad scramble? I'll have the boy help me and we'll look at some more of his stuff. Looks like good ground and good wood there two. 

Are the others just as good as the last one, didn't look at them. Takes a while to load this stuff on our machine.

Owl


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## treeslayer2003 (May 2, 2013)

strangersfaces said:


> Something like as demonstrated by "hotsaws101" is this video? Great viewing angle...
> [youtube]EThx94ALoao&list=UUqt1Y1o8PLzt13pOm4TxBRQ&index=25[/youtube]​
> 
> 
> ...



that worked slick, definatly learned sumn here,timber over there sure is tall. owl, it takes forever for me to load these clips too.


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## northmanlogging (May 2, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> Not me but he has some skills. Notice how far he put his saw away, so he didn't have to mess with it during his mad scramble? I'll have the boy help me and we'll look at some more of his stuff. Looks like good ground and good wood there two.
> 
> Are the others just as good as the last one, didn't look at them. Takes a while to load this stuff on our machine.
> 
> Owl



He's got a pile of vids on u-tube. all pretty good, doesn't show making the face cut often, but usually the results of backing it up.


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## madhatte (May 2, 2013)

He IS a member here, though he doesn't post often. Damn fine fellow and damn fine cutter.


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## OlympicYJ (May 3, 2013)

So when would you use a siswheel as opposed to a soft dutch?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## HuskStihl (May 3, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> So when would you use a siswheel as opposed to a soft dutch?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



I usually use a Dutchwheel, although a Soft Bay or Coos Sis would work as well


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## OlympicYJ (May 3, 2013)

I worded my question wrong. 

When would a siswheel be chosen over a soft dutch or a soft dutch over a sis?

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## HuskStihl (May 3, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> I worded my question wrong.
> 
> When would a siswheel be chosen over a soft dutch or a soft dutch over a sis?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



No you didn't, I was just being a prik. I'm curious about the answer too. I was funnin' 'cause I get confused by all the cut names. I know cutting the sides out of a heavy leaner before cutting the back can prevent a barberchair, but did not know this was a "Coos Bay". But now maybe it's not 'cause one of the posted diagrams (which always hurt my head) looked different. I have no idea what a siswheel even is. I know about "step" and "kerf" dutches, but not soft. I figure if I have no idea what it's called, what it does, or when to use it, I prolly have no business trying it on anything bigger than 6", and then just for fun


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## bitzer (May 3, 2013)

A sizwheel is used when you need max holding wood and pull to one side. Soft dutch is used when you need the hinge wood not to break allowing it to stay on the stump longer which gives it more time for the top to come around. In hardwood you need a lot of room for a soft dutch as it comes around. I've used a full face dutch quite a bit. Usually to break the hinge quickly allowing the stem to roll through other tops. 

Full face dutch- You don't need to go too deep with it and usually I gut out the heart wood. Not sure why I didn't here. I needed this ash to roll through some timber that wasn't going to be cut. The steep Humboldt will put the butt on the ground quickly. Usually you want a conventional face when throwing trees through standing timber though. 






I've got pictures of all of these cuts if anyone is interested. Like I've said before. I take a lot of ####in pictures...

View attachment 293614


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## OlympicYJ (May 3, 2013)

Thanks for the reply bitz. I'm still a little confused by your explanation though. So the sis gives more holding wood over the soft dutch and max swing? While the soft dutch has more time on the stump giving more or less swing than a sis?

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## treeslayer2003 (May 3, 2013)

bitzer said:


> A sizwheel is used when you need max holding wood and pull to one side. Soft dutch is used when you need the hinge wood not to break allowing it to stay on the stump longer which gives it more time for the top to come around. In hardwood you need a lot of room for a soft dutch as it comes around. I've used a full face dutch quite a bit. Usually to break the hinge quickly allowing the stem to roll through other tops.
> 
> Full face dutch- You don't need to go too deep with it and usually I gut out the heart wood. Not sure why I didn't here. I needed this ash to roll through some timber that wasn't going to be cut. The steep Humboldt will put the butt on the ground quickly. Usually you want a conventional face when throwing trees through standing timber though.
> 
> ...



i'd love to see those pics, maybe then i'll know how to answer owl. couldn't cut ash here like that
it grows here in the swamp very brittle can hear it cracking putting in face.


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## HuskStihl (May 3, 2013)

Hey Bitz, this is asking a lot, but I'd also love to see pictures with descriptions of the how and why. I do realize, however, that you may have better things to do with your free time:msp_thumbup:


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## bitzer (May 5, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Thanks for the reply bitz. I'm still a little confused by your explanation though. So the sis gives more holding wood over the soft dutch and max swing? While the soft dutch has more time on the stump giving more or less swing than a sis?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



With the siz the holding wood is doing all the work. With the soft dutch the extra kerfs are helping with the movement and not putting as much strain on the holding wood. 


I will get some pics up with the explanations I can give this week some time. I just got super busy with the ground drying up.


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## tramp bushler (May 5, 2013)

Huh.
Not to argue Bitz ; but I disagree on the Saginaw face for falling timber thru timber. A Humbolt is safer. Helps keep the butt from coming back over the stump.


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## tramp bushler (May 5, 2013)

Some of these diagrams must have been done up by a gubmint employee with a strong need to justify doodeling. 

A lot of these descriptions are at times maybe a good idea. But none of them are a garrentee none of them are worth a hoot if you don't have a sharp straight cutting saw. 

IMO. Most falling is best accomplished with a standard humbolt face and a standard back cut. How you put in your backcut has ALOT to do with the success of getting the tree down with the least amount of fuss and bother. . Doug Dent had it figured out pretty well and documented it very well in his book. . 

I'm actually surprised that I had something to disagree with Blitzer on as I really like his cutting.


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## tramp bushler (May 5, 2013)

Oh, and while I'm at it. 

Any idiot that refers to a chain saw's guide bar as a blade gets rejected out of hand immediately. If they're to stupid to not know that first most basic fact then there isn't anything they have to say that is worth listening to.


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## tramp bushler (May 5, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'd be reluctant to leave a trigger on a tree I'm trying to swing, manipulation of the hold wood is part of steering it, with a trigger your to far away to get back to the hold wood in time, so your cuts have to be right from the get go...
> 
> The diagrams are always kinda tricky to figure out anyway until you sit down and really look at it with a tree you're ready to kill.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for saving me the typing. !! If I could I'de rep ya


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## HuskStihl (May 5, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Oh, and while I'm at it.
> 
> Any idiot that refers to a chain saw's guide bar as a blade gets rejected out of hand immediately. If they're to stupid to not know that first most basic fact then there isn't anything they have to say that is worth listening to.



Double crap!


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## OlympicYJ (May 5, 2013)

bitzer said:


> With the siz the holding wood is doing all the work. With the soft dutch the extra kerfs are helping with the movement and not putting as much strain on the holding wood.
> 
> 
> I will get some pics up with the explanations I can give this week some time. I just got super busy with the ground drying up.



Okay I get what you're saying now. So on the soft dutch you would want the extra kerfs on the side you're trying to swing it to right?


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## hammerlogging (May 5, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Some of these diagrams must have been done up by a gubmint employee with a strong need to justify doodeling.
> 
> A lot of these descriptions are at times maybe a good idea. But none of them are a garrentee none of them are worth a hoot if you don't have a sharp straight cutting saw.
> 
> ...



I suspect Bitzer was addressing a more closed face vs. open concept but made it sound like conventional vs humboldt--- to allow a tree to close its face, release from the hinge, and roll through standing timber, rather than the power steer of an open face, sometimes undesirable.


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## bitzer (May 6, 2013)

Tramp- You are right with a Humboldt and not having the butt come back over the stump, I guess I should have added a little to my explanation. I think Humboldt faces have a tendency to get hung when trying to push through standing timber, especially when the butt hits the ground first. A Saginaw face has move forward top momentum I think which helps push it through. When I'm tossing a tree through timber there is going to be so much crap coming back over the stump at me I'm bookin it out of there anyway. My ultimate goal is to have the tree hit the ground and if the butt comes back over the stump 10 or 15 feet I'm long gone by that time. Usually it doesn't but it sure will when the hinge is set to break quickly. That's just how I've found to do it best. I should have put a disclaimer on that. In my hardwood timber that only averages 75 foot tall or so its not as big a deal as I'm sure a tall conifer coming back over the stump. 

The funny thing is you kind of put the idea in my head years ago when you mentioned using a Saginaw face in your driver tree when knockin over other timber. Its that forward momentum of the top thing.


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## bitzer (May 6, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Okay I get what you're saying now. So on the soft dutch you would want the extra kerfs on the side you're trying to swing it to right?



Anytime you are using a Dutchman its the holding wood side you are swinging to. The tree is leaning left. You cut the left side of the hinge off to swing it right.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 6, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Tramp- You are right with a Humboldt and not having the butt come back over the stump, I guess I should have added a little to my explanation. I think Humboldt faces have a tendency to get hung when trying to push through standing timber, especially when the butt hits the ground first. A Saginaw face has move forward top momentum I think which helps push it through. When I'm tossing a tree through timber there is going to be so much crap coming back over the stump at me I'm bookin it out of there anyway. My ultimate goal is to have the tree hit the ground and if the butt comes back over the stump 10 or 15 feet I'm long gone by that time. Usually it doesn't but it sure will when the hinge is set to break quickly. That's just how I've found to do it best. I should have put a disclaimer on that. In my hardwood timber that only averages 75 foot tall or so its not as big a deal as I'm sure a tall conifer coming back over the stump.
> 
> The funny thing is you kind of put the idea in my head years ago when you mentioned using a Saginaw face in your driver tree when knockin over other timber. Its that forward momentum of the top thing.



bitz, I cut a lot of hardwood too, i'm sure after reading stuff here that timber out west is a whole different ballgame. you see that clip on that mt. side, I couldn't see my self doin that.


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## bitzer (May 6, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> bitz, I cut a lot of hardwood too, i'm sure after reading stuff here that timber out west is a whole different ballgame. you see that clip on that mt. side, I couldn't see my self doin that.



Nope I'm not on facebook. I wish I could have seen it. Me...I'd give anything to be out there!


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## bustedup (May 6, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Okay I get what you're saying now. So on the soft dutch you would want the extra kerfs on the side you're trying to swing it to right?



I might be completely wrong but the way I read the soft dutch is the extra kerfs are on the swing side I'd look on it as it squeezes the stump giving it just that little more time before it past the point where the hinge will let go............I'm maybe way off and not doing it right (which is possible) or my explanation not clear (or both lol)


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## treeslayer2003 (May 6, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Nope I'm not on facebook. I wish I could have seen it. Me...I'd give anything to be out there!



I ain't ether, just clicked on the green writing and watched it on here, forgot were it is though.
randy mac posted it yesterday under falling pics


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## OlympicYJ (May 6, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Anytime you are using a Dutchman its the holding wood side you are swinging to. The tree is leaning left. You cut the left side of the hinge off to swing it right.



So the extra kerfs would be going on the holding wood side?


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## bustedup (May 6, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> So the extra kerfs would be going on the holding wood side?



Yup they do


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## bustedup (May 6, 2013)

How I do it is humbolt (works better I think with a soft dutch) cut the holding wood on the lean side (hopefully getting the amount right ) then put in the kerfs depending on amount of extra wanted how many kerfs and how wide (across the face on the stump) then (depending on lean what kind of back cut) then back it up tapering the holding wood. I probably stay in to long but I do and hopefully it will pull to the lay ya want.


Only my way and only really use of softwood doesn't imo work to well on hard as they tend to bust quicker .......Oh and I nip the corners to lol hopefully to stop side scarring


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## bustedup (May 6, 2013)

Dang should have said I angle the kerfs and I kinda taper them too (that prob makes no sense either)


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## tramp bushler (May 7, 2013)

Ya on the real scary ones I will use a Sag face when driving where the driver tree is above the stump of the tree that I'm driving. It keeps it from falling off the stump and coming down and getting me. . 

It is a lot safer in that situation than a humbolt face. I pretty much only do it when cutting on rock bluffs and ledges where there is no where for me to go. The driver will go below and past me. It's important to park the driver on the lower half of the driven tree. 
I cut the heart out of the driver and use a real steep Sag face and a couple inch of stump shot.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 31, 2013)

View attachment 298006
View attachment 298007


sorry ta leave ya'll hangin, took a while ta get to it. really not so "tricky" funny how the mind remembers things. wound up jus standard face & back cut with wedges. ol standby really best sometimes. did take out a beech ta make room for it. saved out well, 76 feet of clear wood.
spieciel thanks to owl, tho I didn't use it this time that cushion trick is added to the bag.


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## jrcat (May 31, 2013)

nice work TS


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