# No habla ingles



## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

I guess the guys Wright Tree Service send to Texas no habla ingles. A customer of ours asked me Friday would I please tell those workers from Wright Tree Service to stop backing up into her yard. I went around the corner to tell them to knock it off and not a one of them could speak English.


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## Beast o Bodmin (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> I guess the guys Wright Tree Service send to Texas no habla ingles. A customer of ours asked me Friday would I please tell those workers from Wright Tree Service to stop backing up into her yard. I went around the corner to tell them to knock it off and not a one of them could speak English.




burn there wagons out


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

They would have understood of you said I want to see your green card or ill deport your *??.


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## treeslayer (Mar 7, 2010)

yell imigracion real loud, solve the problem quick.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

Lol!


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> yell imigracion real loud, solve the problem quick.



Yeah, I should have. Those cats looked like they just swam the Rio Grande.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

I was going to say to find the pick up truck GF and tell him of the complaint, but he may not understand you either.:monkey:


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## tree MDS (Mar 7, 2010)

Lol! I wonder what the percentage of mexicans on this thing is... my guess is its pretty slim. 

Either that, or they are just quietly gleaning info, mounting the takeover.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

I was trying to get on a climbing crew for asphund and when i stoped there was nothing but alot of happy mexicans on the ground and in the trees. the othe crew was a bucket crew and they were all good old boys. i almost thought that the mex i was talking to was grinnin that i was trying o work with them.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Lol! I wonder what the percentage of mexicans on this thing is... my guess is its pretty slim.



I'd say about 0%.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

they can't read english so they go to the spanish site maybe?


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## tree MDS (Mar 7, 2010)

Last spring I had a crane op complain about how it seems every time he gets sent out, he gets stuck with a bunch of mexicans that cant speak english...

mexicans and cranes.... things are sure changing for the worse these days.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

Sounds like a deadly combo


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## tree MDS (Mar 7, 2010)

dandandatreeman said:


> Sounds like a deadly combo



Get the backhoe.


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## dumbarky (Mar 7, 2010)

*Arkansas Entergy Hires a Hispanic owned Tree Co.*

Entergy here in AR hires a tree company owned by Hispanics. They cause all kinds of trouble probably due to misscommunication or none. They have cut the wrong trees, ran over private property, damaged fences, damaged other utilities, and left open gates releasing livestock on to county roads. I run a rural water utility and this company is worse than vandalism. I have tried to talk to the supervisor (no habla), workers (no habla), Entergy (no care o). So now when they get near my property or utility sites I grab my camera and hang out with them. I lock my gates and leave a (posted no access without an english speaking representative, call me #). This helped a little but Entergy whom gets its revenue from local patrons is farming this work, and its good honest work, out to an out of area non English speaking Co. Whom probably is getting supported from our government to go out in the public and cause problems due to little or no communication. And the customers are paying for it. Sweet huh.


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## jomoco (Mar 7, 2010)

Some of the very best climbers in the US tree industry are hispanic, certified arborists, that could probably out climb every one of you all week long.

jomoco


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## treeslayer (Mar 7, 2010)

jomoco said:


> Some of the very best climbers in the US tree industry are hispanic, certified arborists, that could probably out climb every one of you all week long.
> 
> jomoco



certainly outwork em, without complaining.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

maybe maybe not. this board isen't the place to sit and say whos better imo. i know what i know....and i know that most of these guys here do too. i don't like to tell anyone i can do this i can do that....i show you what i can do, and i know that i can hang. :greenchainsaw:


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

dumbarky said:


> Entergy here in AR hires a tree company owned by Hispanics. They cause all kinds of trouble probably due to misscommunication or none. They have cut the wrong trees, ran over private property, damaged fences, damaged other utilities, and left open gates releasing livestock on to county roads. I run a rural water utility and this company is worse than vandalism. I have tried to talk to the supervisor (no habla), workers (no habla), Entergy (no care o). So now when they get near my property or utility sites I grab my camera and hang out with them. I lock my gates and leave a (posted no access without an english speaking representative, call me #). This helped a little but Entergy whom gets its revenue from local patrons is farming this work, and its good honest work, out to an out of area non English speaking Co. Whom probably is getting supported from our government to go out in the public and cause problems due to little or no communication. And the customers are paying for it. Sweet huh.



Sounds like ABC out of Houston, TX.


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## treeslayer (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Sounds like ABC out of Houston, TX.



saw ABC ride by me here in Williamsburg VA friday in a brand spanking new bucket truck and chipper, guess who was driving?


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

ABC wins alot of work here too......and the same guy drives down here too! When I was working for Wright Tree the GF I worked for said that I made more money than he did. Maybe thats why we see more hispanic guys. they are just happy to work, and alot of them are good help...be even better if they could speak english.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jomoco said:


> Some of the very best climbers in the US tree industry are hispanic, certified arborists, that could probably out climb every one of you all week long.
> jomoco



Look, Goober, this is about not being able to speak English, not if they can climb. And the BEST climbers I have seen in the US were NOT Hispanic. I have never seen a Mexican certified arborist in my life. If there are Mexican certified arborist over here there just as well not be, because they must stay so GD hid out you never see them.


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## jomoco (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Look, Goober, this is about not being able to speak English, not if they can climb. And the BEST climbers I have seen in the US were NOT Hispanic. I have never seen a Mexican certified arborist in my life. If there are Mexican certified arborist over here there just as well not be, because they must stay so GD hid out you never see them.



Hmmm, I wonder who the 2009 ISA ITCC mens champion is?

http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/media/press/itcc09results.aspx

Yu think he might be a certified arborist einstein?

jomoco


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Look, Goober, this is about not being able to speak English, not if they can climb. And the BEST climbers I have seen in the US were NOT Hispanic. I have never seen a Mexican certified arborist in my life. If there are Mexican certified arborist over here there just as well not be, because they must stay so GD hid out you never see them.



I say this with respect. You are an IDIOT or Dumb and Ignorant!
Jeff


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

jomoco said:


> Hmmm, I wonder who the 2009 ISA ITCC mens champion is?
> 
> http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/media/press/itcc09results.aspx
> 
> ...



how do you come back from that?


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 7, 2010)

They speak and understand more than you think. Often times they are just being difficult.

got my first mexican two weeks ago and I'm not giving him back. he's here legally and speaks some english, i speak some spanish, we get by. Sharp as a fox, works like a horse.

having a fiesta this afternoon with his family. 

yeah....it's all a big issue, I get that, but I'm neither worried or intimidated about it.

We need to run our own race and let everything pan out and seek its own level. 

If the customers don't make enough stink....it's on them to a great extent that these failure crews keep marching on. IMHO.

The power companies are probably tired of paying for overpriced and underproductive american crews. so they go to the other extreme. hopefully they will find a better solution and a balance.

i think the best crews are probably a good mix of both....but that's just me.


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## jomoco (Mar 7, 2010)

Take a good hard look mack, he aint hidin from you in the least.

http://www.wcisa.net/TCC.asp

Care to put your other foot in your mouth?

jomoco


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

They have a great work ethic and support their families and the white boys think they are owed something. Usually pot-heads and drunks. I love my crew!
Jeff


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> They have a great work ethic and support their families and the white boys think they are owed something. Usually pot-heads and drunks. I love my crew!
> Jeff



Yes. This country was built with these ideals...perhaps the white kids might learn some from them...they had better, else the white boys just might be the ones getting deported someday.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I say this with respect. You are an IDIOT or Dumb and Ignorant!
> Jeff



Look out with all the synonyms before somebody thinks you are dumb and ignorant. I think people from Mexifornia should not be allowed to comment in threads concerning Mexicans, Gays, Democrats or State budgets.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

Wow, I dont know now which one you are now, are you that naive?
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jomoco said:


> Take a good hard look mack, he aint hidin from you in the least.
> 
> http://www.wcisa.net/TCC.asp
> 
> ...



I never said there were not Hispanics that were good climbers. I know there are. I said the best climbers that I have ever seen were not Hispanic. If you ask me to name the five best climbers I have known of in my 30+ years of being around this none of them would be Hispanic. I know there are Hispanic certified arborist. I said I have never heard of a MEXICAN certified arborist as in non-citizen.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

Jose Mercado!!!
Dumb-ass!
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Wow, I dont know now which one you are now
> Jeff



What? A Mexican or a gay? I'm not either one.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jose Mercado!!!
> Dumb-ass!
> Jeff



Jose Mercado? Is that the cheap tequila you are full of right now or something?


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

You lost alot of respect from me- you are either stupid or naive or both! I could tell you many names -but you sound like a racist! Sad the white boys you knew are all old now! You are in my opinion a dumb-ass. Sincerely,Jeff


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You lost alot of respect from me- you are either stupid or naive or both! I could tell you many names -but you sound like a racist! Sad the white boys you knew are all old now! You are in my opinion a dumb-ass. Sincerely,Jeff



If I lost any respect from you I didn't have much from you to begin with. You don't know me, but if you ask around town here you would find out pretty damn quick I am not stupid nor naive. I have observed in your post you are kind of a touchy, over reactive sort. I'm not a racist but I am ultra conservative and very pro American. And yes, the white guys I had reference to are all older now.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

I am touchy and over reactive to racist.
Jeff
You dont know me either.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am touchy and over reactive to racist.
> Jeff
> You dont know me either.



Well, I just told you I am not a racist. Why is it anybody that is conservative and pro American gets labeled a racist around here? That is really pitiful. I guess we can agree that we are two almost 50 year old tree guys that don't know each other.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

I will agree with that.
Jeff


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## Burvol (Mar 7, 2010)

I never said it was OK to judge someone by the color of their skin, their faith, if they are rich or poor. It's not. This is mere reality in places on the west coast where cheap migrant labor is used. 

Putting things in perspective, there is a damn good reason people are upset about illeagals in our country, and yes, they are mostly from Mexico. The amount of incarserations here does not lie either. We were told as kids to stay away from picker's cabins when we lived next to an orchard for a reason. There was no racist talk, just a fact of life. If someone wants to follow the rules and become leagal and not break our laws, then good deal. That's what this country is about!


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## treeslayer (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> I think people from Mexifornia should not be allowed to comment in threads concerning Mexicans, Gays, Democrats or State budgets.



Now that is on point.


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## treemandan (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Yeah, I should have. Those cats looked like they just swam the Rio Grande.



This is actually a new event in the upcoming summer Olympic.


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## lone wolf (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> I'd say about 0%.



I bet thats wrong.


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## treemandan (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Well, I just told you I am not a racist. Why is it anybody that is conservative and pro American gets labeled a racist around here? That is really pitiful. I guess we can agree that we are two almost 50 year old tree guys that don't know each other.



Some friendly advice:
If you are being accused of being a racist just tell em you hate everybody equally.


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## banshee67 (Mar 7, 2010)

who cares where they are from or what language they speak , a lot of them are good hard working people with families that they love, all they want to do is go to work and earn their way and be accepted, give them a chance, they arnt all MS13 gang members.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> I bet thats wrong.



Why?


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## RVALUE (Mar 7, 2010)

This actually happened:

In the '80's I belonged to a club of dove and quail hunters that hunted in Old Mexico. We were in farming country one morning when the fan ran through the radiator. It took all day to get fixed. BUT the funny thing was that it the Grand Wagoneer was parked about a hundred yards from the end of a crop dusting runway. They would take off heavily loaded, and barely be clearing the bushes when they would go over. Eye ball to eye ball. We would occassionally wave, and they would respond, and those planes would go crazy, almost crashing. I thought it was interesting seeing mexican pilots. I wonder how they drove to the airstrip. Yes, those planes looked like heck, covered with oil and such.


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> who cares where they are from or what language they speak , a lot of them are good hard working people with families that they love, all they want to do is go to work and earn their way and be accepted, give them a chance, they arnt all MS13 gang members.



I know most of them are hard working people. I do however care what language they speak. If you are going to live here speak the GD language. This is America. I will tell you one thing they can do, they can turn a neighborhood third world in three years flat. I don't think you need to be in charge of immigration reform. Well, for that matter several folks on here don't.


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## sbhooper (Mar 7, 2010)

This could turn into a long post, but here goes. 

Number one, don't give me this "poor Mexican" crap. They can speak more English than they let on and they deny it to get out of trouble. Most likely, they are illegal and are being paid cash-READ THAT AS NO TAXES PAID- and 80 percent of the money they make is exported to Mexico-NOT SPENT IN OUR ECONOMY. There are probably 18 of them living in a trailer house somewhere smoking dope and drinking Budweiser and tequila and getting cops called for playing their hoo haa music too loud. They will make a huge mess and then the company takes the heat because "they don't speak English". Any job where safety is an issue should require English-case closed. Those people are hired just so the owner can pocket more money. Granted, lots of Americans won't work, but that is no reason to hire people that have broken the law to get here. 

It is not a case of "wanting to better themselves" either. I worked for the U.S. Border Patrol and ICE Investigations for 27 years. A high percentage of these people DO NOT try to better themselves. They don't want to learn English and live the same dogs they were in Mexico-selling dope, and assaulting little girls in their off time. Chastise me for saying these things if you want, but I have been there and done that. I know what I am talking about. The ones that truely want to better themselves find a way to come here legally, work hard, and LEARN ENGLISH! 

Some will work hard, but due to ignorance will destroy more equipment than they are worth. There is no SS paid in and no income tax taken out, but if they get hurt-WHO PAYS? The Amercan taxpayer pays because hospitals cannot turn them away. 

Anyone that has sympathy for someone doing a dangerous job in this country without even being able to speak English, needs a reality check. That is completely stupid.

I will bet that you would not find a single one in that crew with enough on the ball to become a REAL arborist. They don't care about regulations and are not going to attend anything that is not in Spanish and doesn't involve beer and tacos. 

Call me a racist if you want, but I know what I am talking about and I consider it being a REALIST-not a RACIST.

Besides, I hate criminals and deadbeats of all race and religion equally!!

I would tell that company to take a hike and go find someone with enough sense to hire Americans.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2010)

Who in the hell is talking about illegals? Not me!
Jeff


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## RAG66 (Mar 7, 2010)

You guys are rude and dissrespectful to me. The illeagal can be deported that's why they call him or her illeagal. It does not matter what they get paid or how hard they work. Talking about how out of hand they get on the job or anything else is just plain nonsense.... So how you like me now? By the way I'm white American and proud to pay above board, all taxes that are due and give the customer a good finished product. So how you like me now?


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## sbhooper (Mar 7, 2010)

Huh? You make no sense. It is not nonsense and if your are above-board, everyone here will applaud you for it. All illegals, unfortuneately, do not get deported and the jails and housing projects are full of illegals of all nationalities that are just here "to work hard and better themselves". Too many people hire them because they can abuse them as workers and not have to pay any taxes for them. They DO take jobs that Americans will do.

Pandering to them is an unsupportable argument.


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## RVALUE (Mar 7, 2010)

Speaking of illegals, who here on AS has a good understanding of the ramifications of this census and counting illegals? Could change EVERYTHING.


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## fishercat (Mar 7, 2010)

*I agree!*



treeslayer said:


> Now that is on point.



I can't rep him right now.I hope some one did.


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## newsawtooth (Mar 7, 2010)

*Fascninating.*

Rvalue, sbhooper, mckeetree, you are in the bitter misinformed minority. Sbhooper worked for the feds so he can be forgiven for buying into the old arguments about immigration, it bought his government pension. The rest of you seem to have forgotten that you all are children of immigrants, unless you are from one of the indigenous tribes. You think the Irish weren't branded the same things that you are slinging at the Chicanos, Mckeetree? Filthy stinking Irish and all their babies suckling off the system. And Rvalue, how quaint for you to see a real live Mexican pilot? It's incredible those poor confused people can summon the strength to read, much less fly. I have no problem with conservatives, but that is not blanket justification for racism. Because, that is what you are, maybe you're comfortable with it maybe not. Just look in the mirror and say to yourself I will not accept any idea of life other than the image I see. Enjoy the twilight fellas, the sun has set on your world view.


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## fishercat (Mar 7, 2010)

*funny thing is..............*



newsawtooth said:


> Rvalue, sbhooper, mckeetree, you are in the bitter misinformed minority. Sbhooper worked for the feds so he can be forgiven for buying into the old arguments about immigration, it bought his government pension. The rest of you seem to have forgotten that you all are children of immigrants, unless you are from one of the indigenous tribes. You think the Irish weren't branded the same things that you are slinging at the Chicanos, Mckeetree? Filthy stinking Irish and all their babies suckling off the system. And Rvalue, how quaint for you to see a real live Mexican pilot? It's incredible those poor confused people can summon the strength to read, much less fly. I have no problem with conservatives, but that is not blanket justification for racism. Because, that is what you are, maybe you're comfortable with it maybe not. Just look in the mirror and say to yourself I will not accept any idea of life other than the image I see. Enjoy twilight, fellas, the sun has set on world view.



my ancestors came through Ellis Island and did what they needed to do stay and become AMERICANS! Including speaking English!

No one here has a problem with folks coming here legally.


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## newsawtooth (Mar 7, 2010)

*Fishercat,*

Thanks for your predictable response. Your personal story certainly makes me feel differently about the millions of other immigrants to this land, starting with those that crossed that land bridge, to the vikings, the Spanish, french, Africans, Chinese. Your are pretty far from unique, don't you have another John Wayne photo shoot for your avatar to got to? I was waiting for you to spout "If theys come here theys need to speak American, and get a little paler". But you didn't , so thanks for your restraint.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 7, 2010)

The immigration of undocumented people into the US from Mexico and Central America is hardly unique. Just curious though, when the same type of people come from Cuba, they seem to be treated like heros. Just my foreign perspective I guess.

Back to my original point, people emigrating undocumented from poor countries to wealthier ones is not unique. Look at all the Africans moving north into Europe, Indians moving and working in the Middle East (eg Dubai). Even people utilizing our much more relaxed "refugee" system.

I think the point is, if you want to create an environment where people don't immigrate to your country, then you need to work to improve the conditions in their home country, so they don't want to leave. 

There was a time in North American (Canada and US) where they were advertising in Europe for immigrants. I have difficulty with the arguement that "I'm special because I got here first and now you can't come in".


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## newsawtooth (Mar 7, 2010)

*BCWetcoast*

That's exactly it. The time was not too long ago, the 1940's and 50's saw aggressive recruitment of Mexicans for work on the railroads, mines, and agriculture in the West. Even today US companies recruit in Latin America to exploit the discrepancies of different economies. Immigration is the result of economics. If there are jobs, the nation will see increased immigration. I suspect Fishercat's family immigrated because of opportunities in the US or persecution in their native land.


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## lone wolf (Mar 7, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Why?



wrong when someone said their isn't any of them on here that's all i am saying


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## RVALUE (Mar 7, 2010)

Newsawtooth: Points taken, and slightly disagreed with, respectfully. Yes it was biased of me on my point about the pilots, and I appologize. 

Some of my family came over on the Mayflower. However, I _did not_ come over on the Mayflower. I had nothing to do with where and when I was born. However, I do not want persons who are not a legal part of this country, influencing our governing. This is what may happen with the new census. And this is wrong. 

If the intent is to take over this country, then so be it. The same spirit that gave us our indepence may very well rise again, and supress it. And yes, I have been discriminated against, and it's not fair. Or fun. 

The crime is not in "a person" trying to make a better lifestyle for themselves. This is commendable and expected. The crime is someone trying to take away my lifestyle. This is unacceptable.


FWIW, 2/3 of my brother in laws are _hispanic._ 

And about the sunset, ???????


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## mckeetree (Mar 7, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> Rvalue, sbhooper, mckeetree, you are in the bitter misinformed minority. Sbhooper worked for the feds so he can be forgiven for buying into the old arguments about immigration, it bought his government pension. The rest of you seem to have forgotten that you all are children of immigrants, unless you are from one of the indigenous tribes. You think the Irish weren't branded the same things that you are slinging at the Chicanos, Mckeetree? Filthy stinking Irish and all their babies suckling off the system. And Rvalue, how quaint for you to see a real live Mexican pilot? It's incredible those poor confused people can summon the strength to read, much less fly. I have no problem with conservatives, but that is not blanket justification for racism. Because, that is what you are, maybe you're comfortable with it maybe not. Just look in the mirror and say to yourself I will not accept any idea of life other than the image I see. Enjoy the twilight fellas, the sun has set on your world view.




Somehow, and I don't know how, you have gotten federal employees, legal immigrants, illegal aliens, Chicanos, Irish immigrants, racism, realism, reality, history and conservatism all mixed up. That post is just ridiculous. You don't even have enough sense to judge me.


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## newsawtooth (Mar 7, 2010)

*You picked the fight.*



mckeetree said:


> Look out with all the synonyms before somebody thinks you are dumb and ignorant. I think people from Mexifornia should not be allowed to comment in threads concerning Mexicans, Gays, Democrats or State budgets.



Do you really think you can say things like this and not be judged? I do not begrudge you your opinion, at least contribute to the dialogue if you're going to start it. Your clarity is shackled by your narrow mind. Immigration is complex, go ahead ignore the context and boil it down to some palatable catch phrase. That does only you a disservice. Your ancestors immigrated for the same reasons that those guys in the Wright truck did. How are you different from those you rail against?

And gr8scott72, thanks for the negative rep and the note "Not wanting illegals in my country doesn't make me a racist". I have never said anything about illegal aliens, nor did I call you specifically a racist. You weren't even on my radar. What did I say that offended you? Are you threatened by immigration, by competition, by free enterprise? That's what this is about isn't it, competition for resources? The cause of most wars.


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## mckeetree (Mar 8, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> Do you really think you can say things like this and not be judged? I do not begrudge you your opinion, at least contribute to the dialogue if you're going to start it. Your clarity is shackled by your narrow mind. Immigration is complex, go ahead ignore the context and boil it down to some palatable catch phrase. That does only you a disservice. Your ancestors immigrated for the same reasons that those guys in the Wright truck did. How are you different from those you rail against?
> 
> And gr8scott72, thanks for the negative rep and the note "Not wanting illegals in my country doesn't make me a racist". I have never said anything about illegal aliens, nor did I call you specifically a racist. You weren't even on my radar. What did I say that offended you? Are you threatened by immigration, by competition, by free enterprise? That's what this is about isn't it, competition for resources? The cause of most wars.




Say things like that? Jeff was the one who started in with the dumb, ignorant idiot stuff. I can contribute plenty to this dialogue buddy, that's for sure. I am sick of being labeled a racist just because it gripes my ass that we are being forced into a situation where it is acceptable to live and work here and not understand a GD word of English. I griped the other day about a phone message at the DOT saying push "one" for English and some assclown there called me a racist. I am not a racist but I have figured out what you are and let's just leave it at that. I know what I am and I know what you are.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 8, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> yell imigracion real loud, solve the problem quick.



They aren't scared of them as they don't do ####. I tried to call immigration was put on hold by automated secretary for four hours. Immigration is a joke we need to jail our politicians for obstruction of justice.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 8, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> Do you really think you can say things like this and not be judged? I do not begrudge you your opinion, at least contribute to the dialogue if you're going to start it. Your clarity is shackled by your narrow mind. Immigration is complex, go ahead ignore the context and boil it down to some palatable catch phrase. That does only you a disservice. Your ancestors immigrated for the same reasons that those guys in the Wright truck did. How are you different from those you rail against?
> 
> And gr8scott72, thanks for the negative rep and the note "Not wanting illegals in my country doesn't make me a racist". I have never said anything about illegal aliens, nor did I call you specifically a racist. You weren't even on my radar. What did I say that offended you? Are you threatened by immigration, by competition, by free enterprise? That's what this is about isn't it, competition for resources? The cause of most wars.



Immigration is only complex by libbers 22 shells are cheap and would take care of both. Ok you can call me racist now but the truth is your mindset is a traitor to the American work force, so it don't have no impact. You persons sympathizing with criminals are obstructing justice, those putting up sanctuaries are traitors, as well as, those that provide employment.
Lets just get politics out of the way and reclaim our land and country. And for the ones of you traitors which say it was theirs, remember we bought much of it and paid the rest in blood, so if you like them so much go to Mexico with them imo.


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## sbhooper (Mar 8, 2010)

You are correct, Ropensaddle. I worked for immigration for 27 years and it is a broken beauracracy. The field people would clean up the problem in a heartbeat, but the upper management are all political puppets and don't allow anybody to do their jobs. That is why I bailed early. It was either that or go postal. When I startede throwing crap, my boss would not even come into my office!


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 8, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> And gr8scott72, thanks for the negative rep and the note "Not wanting illegals in my country doesn't make me a racist". I have never said anything about illegal aliens, nor did I call you specifically a racist. You weren't even on my radar. What did I say that offended you? Are you threatened by immigration, by competition, by free enterprise? That's what this is about isn't it, competition for resources? The cause of most wars.





newsawtooth said:


> I have no problem with conservatives, but that is not blanket justification for racism.



I am a conservative and feel like many other conservatives do in that illegals should not be here no matter what their race. You labeling conservatives racist makes me fall in that category and that is why I sent you the comment.

I have no problem with immigration, just the illegal part. I have no problem with competition, just illegal competition.


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 8, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> You persons sympathizing with criminals are obstructing justice, those putting up sanctuaries are traitors, as well as, those that provide employment.



One step further is all the home owners that hire a company that employs illegals.


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## mckeetree (Mar 8, 2010)

sbhooper said:


> I worked for immigration for 27 years and it is a broken beauracracy. The field people would clean up the problem in a heartbeat, but the upper management are all political puppets and don't allow anybody to do their jobs.



I talked to a guy last year that worked there for 16 years and he said exactly what you are saying. He said cleaning it up is not a problem, sending them back is not a problem, the problem is not being allowed to do your job.


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## banshee67 (Mar 8, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> I know most of them are hard working people. I do however care what language they speak. If you are going to live here speak the GD language. This is America. I will tell you one thing they can do, they can turn a neighborhood third world in three years flat. I don't think you need to be in charge of immigration reform. Well, for that matter several folks on here don't.



well of course they need to learn english, that goes without saying . . .
but other than that, there are a lot of ignorant stereotypes getting thrown around in here
a mans language barrier should not be his defining factor

at the same time , the word "they" or "them" is pretty bad, i am guilty too, but using words like that all we are doing is making big sweeping generalizations about a whole race, which is pretty ignorant on ALL of our parts , all white people arnt the same, aand either are all mexicans


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## tree md (Mar 8, 2010)

On the subject of not speaking English: I have posted this before but I think it merits mention once more here. One of the tree services I hired on with early in my career liked to hire cheap illegal labor. The old guy probably did keep the illegals around because they were cheap and he could abuse them. I was the only white guy on the crew. The Mexican guys were great workers and the climber was actaully better than me. We did mostly crane work and the climber had more experience at that than I did. The only reason I stayed around and put up with the old guys #### is I wanted to learn how to do aerial lifts. About a week after I quit the guy got fried by his own crane. The line got stretched out and he was yelling at the Mexicans (who did not speak English) to not take the choker off of the log. They thought that the guy was yelling at them to hurry up, took the choker off and let the line swing back into the powerline. Can't really blame the Mexicans. They were used to the guy cussing them to make them work faster. Hard to blame anyone. It was just a miscommunication that ended in tragedy.

I will not get into the politics of immigration but will state that I think anyone working this job, with all the dangers, should be on the same page and speak the same language.


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## Toddppm (Mar 8, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> at the same time , the word "they" or "them" is pretty bad, i am guilty too, but using words like that all we are doing is making big sweeping generalizations about a whole race, which is pretty ignorant on ALL of our parts , all white people arnt the same, *aand either are all mexicans*




 and all latinos are not Mexicans


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## lone wolf (Mar 8, 2010)

link http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacob1201/with/4407683432/


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## ropensaddle (Mar 8, 2010)

sbhooper said:


> You are correct, Ropensaddle. I worked for immigration for 27 years and it is a broken beauracracy. The field people would clean up the problem in a heartbeat, but the upper management are all political puppets and don't allow anybody to do their jobs. That is why I bailed early. It was either that or go postal. When I startede throwing crap, my boss would not even come into my office!



Yeah about how I had it figured so the higher ups all the way to senate house and presidency need jailed for being criminals as they are aiding and a bedding the ruin of the American dream. PS: also out in wierdafornia the illegals were put on news for burning the American flag on our soil I still for the life of me don't understand why they were not fragged. That is an act of war imo they better not do it where I am.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 8, 2010)

Just curious, what differentiates an illegal alien from an unprocessed refugee? Besides an illegal alien comes from Mexico.

Functionally, having more than 1 official language takes some getting used to. Ask Switzerland where there are 4. Seriously, we have a very diverse ethnic culture here in Vancouver as befits a port city. And while the immigrant children can speak multiple languages, often grandma only speaks Chinese, Punjabi, Tagalog, Korean, Iranian, Vietnamese (to name a few) etc. So in the end, for the city to FUNCTION, services (commercial as well as government) need to be provided/available in many languages. 

I understand your frustration with immigrant labour (legal or illegal). My buddy was a drywall contractor who eventually got out of the business because companies run by immigrants drove the prices through the floor. And there are all the stories about 4 families living in the same house. He ultimately decided to change trades to something more lucrative.

I'm beginning to see this as a finger in the dyke argument. Worldwide travel is easy and people are immigrating to many places for a variety of reasons. Instead of being concerned with poor people immigrating into the US, you should be more concerned with very rich and powerful people emigrating out of the US (along with their tax inputs) to tax havens. (To those who aren't concerned about this, the stat I heard was the top 5% of income earners pay > than 50% of the income tax).


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## newsawtooth (Mar 8, 2010)

RValue, thank you for your reasoned response to my somewhat antagonistic post. I maintain that the issue is complex, more complex than Rope's simple solution. I do not condone illegal immigration, for reasons other than most on this board. I have not suggested a sanctuary, because there is no such thing. Workers without papers are beholden to their employers and exploited because of their immigration status. Most self employed people on this board can empathize with that, that's why we work for ourselves. 

Illegal immigrants are not the burden on American services that some would claim. Some economists assert that they are integral to our economy, they contribute in labor, sales, and taxes without any of the benefits of citizenship. If you dispute this, I encourage you to attempt to receive benefits without a US ID. Furthermore the argument that aliens are filling jails and burdening social services is disingenuous. Black males are incarcerated at a rate of 4,000 per 100,000, hispanic males at a rate of 1,300 per 100,000. Not surprising for a country with the largest prison population per captia in the world. Most, upwards of 50% for drug offenses. Some economists peg the contribution of illegal aliens to the economy of around $20 billion while detractors pin the burden at around $10 billion. It is impossible to know. 

Perhaps we should move this to the Political forum. What does immigration reform mean to you? I don't have an answer. There is an important discussion here. We in the green industry see it more than most as do those in construction and agriculture because they are labor intensive industries. Let's not resort to name calling, myself included, and instead flesh out the issue.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 8, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> RValue, thank you for your reasoned response to my somewhat antagonistic post. I maintain that the issue is complex, more complex than Rope's simple solution. I do not condone illegal immigration, for reasons other than most on this board. I have not suggested a sanctuary, because there is no such thing. Workers without papers are beholden to their employers and exploited because of their immigration status. Most self employed people on this board can empathize with that, that's why we work for ourselves.
> 
> Illegal immigrants are not the burden on American services that some would claim. Some economists assert that they are integral to our economy, they contribute in labor, sales, and taxes without any of the benefits of citizenship. If you dispute this, I encourage you to attempt to receive benefits without a US ID. Furthermore the argument that aliens are filling jails and burdening social services is disingenuous. Black males are incarcerated at a rate of 4,000 per 100,000, hispanic males at a rate of 1,300 per 100,000. Not surprising for a country with the largest prison population per captia in the world. Most, upwards of 50% for drug offenses. Some economists peg the contribution of illegal aliens to the economy of around $20 billion while detractors pin the burden at around $10 billion. It is impossible to know.
> 
> Perhaps we should move this to the Political forum. What does immigration reform mean to you? I don't have an answer. There is an important discussion here. We in the green industry see it more than most as do those in construction and agriculture because they are labor intensive industries. Let's not resort to name calling, myself included, and instead flesh out the issue.



You must not have researched the health cost of illegal alien care. You have somewhat a point on incarceration as most cops have been steered away from them saying it is immigration problem. One look a weirdafornia's illegal gangs should tell any sane American they are a threat to this great country. I know a legal Mexican who told me that we better do something fast because we are not getting Mexico's good citizens that it is mostly gang member flooding the boarder. The flesh the issue time was twenty years ago now is a time to act and enforce the laws they wrote then by lethal force if necessary. I so wish we had a real American president with balls who would do what is right for this nation whether winny liberals liked it or not.


Ethical response is to mount m 50's every 600 yards down the rio send the ones here back and shoot any swimmer they see it wont take long to end it permanently. They will stop and also fine the people using and harboring them into poverty when a job needs done do it the security of this nation is demanding of swift and immediate action.

imo


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 8, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> You must not have researched the health cost of illegal alien care. You have somewhat a point on incarceration as most cops have been steered away from them saying it is immigration problem. One look a weirdafornia's illegal gangs should tell any sane American they are a threat to this great country. I know a legal Mexican who told me that we better do something fast because we are not getting Mexico's good citizens that it is mostly gang member flooding the boarder. The flesh the issue time was twenty years ago now is a time to act and enforce the laws they wrote then by lethal force if necessary. I so wish we had a real American president with balls who would do what is right for this nation whether winny liberals liked it or not.
> 
> 
> Ethical response is to mount m 50's every 600 yards down the rio send the ones here back and shoot any swimmer they see it wont take long to end it permanently. They will stop and also fine the people using and harboring them into poverty when a job needs done do it the security of this nation is demanding of swift and immediate action.
> ...



Unfortunately, I think you would find this approach as futile as the "War on Drugs". I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws and they shouldn't be enforced, what I'm saying is that the approach should come from the demand side of the equation not the supply side. What fighting the supply side is easier to quantify and is easier to sell to the average Joe, I think you would get a better return for your dollar fighting the demand side.

So my argument for the immigration issue stands, make life in Mexico better for the average citizen, through fighting political corruption, reducing the mega gap between rich and poor and creating a middle class, then less people will want to leave.

As for drugs, the Prohibition should teach us that banning a product where there is a demand will just lead to innovation on the part of those who want to supply. Compare this to tobacco, where the product isn't banned, but demand has been significantly reduced through other actions. How many people here smoke, but wish they could quit?


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## mckeetree (Mar 8, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> Illegal immigrants are not the burden on American services that some would claim.




Hogwash. Pure dee hogwash. Go to any ER around here and that is all you see and none of them are paying a dime. They haul their kids to the ER every time they sneeze. Have you never talked to anybody that works in health care? Good God, Earth to newsawtooth.


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 8, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> So my argument for the immigration issue stands, make life in Mexico better for the average citizen, through fighting political corruption, reducing the mega gap between rich and poor and creating a middle class, then less people will want to leave.



So now we have to spend money to make Mexico a better place? That idea is just ridiculous.


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## what-a-stihl (Mar 8, 2010)

You know you can't even bring up the subject of American citizens demanding the English language to be spoken by it's inhabitants without being labeled a racist, knock it off why don't you. These ones pointing the fingers and shouting racism, if they aren't mexicans themselves than they are business owners who are trying to justify their greed for hiring illegals. And everyone wants to sympathize with them, and instead insisting English be spoken, everything is written in dual languages. Do you know why my ancestors spoke English? Because there was no "press 2" for German or businesses with their names in Irish subtitles. Everyone hates the stereotypes, unless they're in a positive form. It's wrong to say "they exploit this country" but agreed if you say "they have one hell of a work ethic". And the Mexicans who are tax paying citizens get offended, why? If I put forth to make the requirements to become a legal citizen I would be just as frustrated as the next man that they're bucking the system. This one I really hate to hear, "well they work the jobs that white people don't want", horse:censored:
Try to get a job at a business that employs illegals and see what answer you get. I know there's a mass of white people without work that would take those jobs in a heartbeat.


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 8, 2010)

what-a-stihl said:


> Try to get a job at a business that employs illegals and see what answer you get. I know there's a mass of *American Citizens* (changed that for you) without work that would take those jobs in a heartbeat.



I agree.

Case in point:

The largest immigration raid took place just south of me here in Mississippi at Howard Industries just recently. Over 600 were arrested. The next week, hundreds of local _citizens_ were there to apply for a job.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 8, 2010)

Serious de-rail!
Jeff


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## fishercat (Mar 9, 2010)

*you're welcome.*



newsawtooth said:


> Thanks for your predictable response. Your personal story certainly makes me feel differently about the millions of other immigrants to this land, starting with those that crossed that land bridge, to the vikings, the Spanish, french, Africans, Chinese. Your are pretty far from unique, don't you have another John Wayne photo shoot for your avatar to got to? I was waiting for you to spout "If theys come here theys need to speak American, and get a little paler". But you didn't , so thanks for your restraint.



I don't care what color your skin is or even if you have an accent but hell,at least try!!!!!!!!!!!

My neighbour is from Russia.As in born there.He has a thick accent but speaks well enough to be understood.He is a plumber and knows if he wants to get anywhere here,he needs to know as much of the native language as possible.Same as I would expect if I went to Russia.

He's a legal US citizen you can tell how proud he is about it just by talking to him.

Funny thing is,he would not agree with you.He'd tell you straight up, you must be high on something. 

I couldn't ask for a better neighbor.He's the only neighbor that I know110% that I could count on if I need a favour.

Friggin' honky across the street can't even wave even after I plowed his wife,I mean driveway.

So a word of advice,if you sold whatever drugs you're on,you'd be a millionaire!


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## newsawtooth (Mar 9, 2010)

fishercat said:


> Friggin' honky accross the street can't even wave even after I plowed his wife,I mean driveway.


 Nice, Fishercat. A little levity. That's the other side, immigrants aren't only Latinos. We get fixated on that. I worked with a Romanian for awhile. He had immigrated legally, most of his help hadn't. Those guys didn't expect any handouts, they lived and worked like tomorrow they could be deported. They expected to work hard and earn their money at great personal cost. Sure there are some that may take advantage of the system, like anywhere.

And Mcketree, the ER's you talk about. They are required by law to treat anyone that enters regardless of immigration status, ability to pay, or insurance. They are required to do that because of a law signed by your patron saint of conservatism, Ronald Reagan in 1986. It's called the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985. One of the five best things Reagan did. Pretty ####ty place to live if Doctors and nurses could chose who to treat based on their ability to pay. When I worked on Ambulances and in Backcountry Rescue, we never asked that. Not our job. We helped people who needed help. I suppose you would wait for the paper work? Stay classy, Mcketree.


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## mckeetree (Mar 9, 2010)

gr8scott72 said:


> So now we have to spend money to make Mexico a better place? That idea is just ridiculous.



No, my friend, that's not ridiculous. Ridiculous is a word for things that make more sense than that. That statement was so moronic it defies definition by mere word.


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## mckeetree (Mar 9, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> And Mcketree, the ER's you talk about. They are required by law to treat anyone that enters regardless of immigration status, ability to pay, or insurance.



And I can get get on board with that to some extent if our country wasn't broke. Right now we need to take care of our own. Charity begins at home (home being America). And besides that, they abuse the charity. Let's get pregnant for the 9th time.....old dumbass Uncle Sam will pay for it. Also, turn about is fair play. I don't know how much you have traveled in Mexico. I have traveled all over the southern part of Mexico and let me tell you if you are American and you get sick and are found to have no visa or valid tourist card your sick ass is going to jail and don't think they won't ask to see it. I observed a Canadian woman who had overstayed her tourist card get a real "dose" of Mexico. If you don't have the money upfront it doesn't matter what your legal status in Mexico is......you are not getting treated....at all. Ambulance won't even pick you up without cash or credit card upfront.


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## dandandatreeman (Mar 9, 2010)

Wow...what a touchy subject I never thought this would go this far.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 9, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Unfortunately, I think you would find this approach as futile as the "War on Drugs". I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws and they shouldn't be enforced, what I'm saying is that the approach should come from the demand side of the equation not the supply side. What fighting the supply side is easier to quantify and is easier to sell to the average Joe, I think you would get a better return for your dollar fighting the demand side.
> 
> So my argument for the immigration issue stands, make life in Mexico better for the average citizen, through fighting political corruption, reducing the mega gap between rich and poor and creating a middle class, then less people will want to leave.
> 
> As for drugs, the Prohibition should teach us that banning a product where there is a demand will just lead to innovation on the part of those who want to supply. Compare this to tobacco, where the product isn't banned, but demand has been significantly reduced through other actions. How many people here smoke, but wish they could quit?



You would not have to shoot too many before they got the idea. We have tried the feather duster approach for over twenty years wake up. First we got to have our own strong middle class which these illegals and upperclass greed are eliminating faster than we can type. I say both sides in other words shooting at the border and fining the wealthy tyrants into poverty for using them would eliminate both problems. Let Mexico take care of themselves until we have our dream back. imho


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## ropensaddle (Mar 9, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Hogwash. Pure dee hogwash. Go to any ER around here and that is all you see and none of them are paying a dime. They haul their kids to the ER every time they sneeze. Have you never talked to anybody that works in health care? Good God, Earth to newsawtooth.



Lol yeah prolly never worked an honest day imo. They have screwed up the construction jobs and are now moving in on our territory fast and the liberals or sympathizers or whatever better wake up. Red dawn is fast approaching and I am ready. The red coats are here again and are in the way of the American people, I take pride in knowing the blood of the pioneers run through my veins, with a touch of American Indian as well. I truly hope that authorities will finally see this as our biggest treat the way I do before many like me end up joining a militia with the goal of true American reform. imho


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## treeslayer (Mar 9, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Red dawn is fast approaching and I am ready.



that scares the #### out of me, a treeman with a vendetta.

Git em ROPE.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 9, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> that scares the #### out of me, a treeman with a vendetta.
> 
> Git em ROPE.



Lol take away the binders that the country places on heroic action and lead follow or stay the heck outta the way. PS: I have video proof they have stolen some of my work thats all I need to mount a full scale offensive:monkey:


And I have to pay for my health care too I am jealous of them dern illegals they have it better than we do.


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## Burvol (Mar 9, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol yeah prolly never worked an honest day imo. They have screwed up the construction jobs and are now moving in on our territory fast and the liberals or sympathizers or whatever better wake up. Red dawn is fast approaching and I am ready. The red coats are here again and are in the way of the American people, I take pride in knowing the blood of the pioneers run through my veins, with a touch of American Indian as well. I truly hope that authorities will finally see this as our biggest treat the way I do before many like me end up joining a militia with the goal of true American reform. imho



We are brothers in arms! I am right here with ya rope. I am sick of the way this country has pulled down her pants and backed up to the boarder. Not me, not my people. People like us!


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## fishercat (Mar 9, 2010)

*Burvol and Rope.............................*

I got your back brothers!


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## what-a-stihl (Mar 9, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol yeah prolly never worked an honest day imo. They have screwed up the construction jobs and are now moving in on our territory fast and the liberals or sympathizers or whatever better wake up. Red dawn is fast approaching and I am ready. The red coats are here again and are in the way of the American people, I take pride in knowing the blood of the pioneers run through my veins, with a touch of American Indian as well. I truly hope that authorities will finally see this as our biggest treat the way I do before many like me end up joining a militia with the goal of true American reform. imho



well said sir!:agree2:


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 10, 2010)

what-a-stihl said:


> This one I really hate to hear, "well they work the jobs that white people don't want", horse:censored:
> Try to get a job at a business that employs illegals and see what answer you get. I know there's a mass of white peoponle without work that would take those jobs in a heartbeat.



Maybe they would take the job in a heartbeat....but would they actually do the job. Or just show up.

Is the american dream really being stolen, or have we left it out on the curb with last night's pizza boxes.

This world is a will to power and it often takes blood, sweat, and tears to make it go around.

This newer generation just doesn't have what it takes.

Sad...I know, but that's the reality. And who's fault is it.

And do we not focus on half the issue...too ashamed to look in the mirror.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 10, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> No, my friend, that's not ridiculous. Ridiculous is a word for things that make more sense than that. That statement was so moronic it defies definition by mere word.



Obviously neither you or Gr8Scott read my statement or because it was written in English and not Spanglish you didn't understand it.

I did not say send money to Mexico to make Mexico a better society, I said make life better for the average Mexican citizen. Totally different. The US already sends tons of money to Mexico in various forms, work at taking the corruption out of the system to improve the life for all and people won't want to leave. 

Why do Mexicans take the risk and expense to come to the US? Because their life in Mexico is so freaking miserable.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 10, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> You would not have to shoot too many before they got the idea. We have tried the feather duster approach for over twenty years wake up. First we got to have our own strong middle class which these illegals and upperclass greed are eliminating faster than we can type. I say both sides in other words shooting at the border and fining the wealthy tyrants into poverty for using them would eliminate both problems. Let Mexico take care of themselves until we have our dream back. imho



Taking the money away from the wealthy!!!!! Rope, that is a very Marxist concept.


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## newsawtooth (Mar 10, 2010)

*La revolución no será televisada*

?Burvol, Cuerda, y El Gato Pescador?

!Mi oh, los tres locos de la revolución! !Por favor, Dios se apiade de nuestras pobres almas! !Sus sombreros de papel de estaño debe ser demasiado fuerte! Pobre gente.


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## tree md (Mar 10, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> ?Burvol, Cuerda, y El Gato Pescador?
> 
> !Mi oh, los tres locos de la revolución! !Por favor, Dios se apiade de nuestras pobres almas! !Sus sombreros de papel de estaño debe ser demasiado fuerte! Pobre gente.



I just hope you were not saying "headache, look out below"...


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## mckeetree (Mar 10, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> I did not say send money to Mexico to make Mexico a better society, I said make life better for the average Mexican citizen. Totally different. The US already sends tons of money to Mexico in various forms, work at taking the corruption out of the system to improve the life for all and people won't want to leave.



The more you say the worse you get.


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## what-a-stihl (Mar 10, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Maybe they would take the job in a heartbeat....but would they actually do the job. Or just show up.
> 
> Is the american dream really being stolen, or have we left it out on the curb with last night's pizza boxes.
> 
> ...


But I believe this is the only reason how the mexicans earned their high standard work ethic, is that they just show up everyday, not that they work harder than anyone else, and with this next generation of vaginas who call themselves men, showing up everyday is becoming uncommon. The hardest working men I've ever seen weren't mexican at all. On my job you have to hustle, I mean you better be doing something all the time and you better be doing it quick, and every mexican I've seen doesn't have that drive, they have one steady pace all day and the white guys just work circles around 'em. Sure this upcoming crop of men is disheartening in many ways, but there still is some hard working young men out there with good upbringings who are out of work and would take any job available out there, but some illegal has it at the moment. I don't know why so many will defend and uphold another race and talk down about their own, have some pride for once.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 10, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Taking the money away from the wealthy!!!!! Rope, that is a very Marxist concept.



No you missed it take away from the rich that got that way off the backs of illegal labor. It is only fair they too be punished as they caused it to happen! I say fine companies using them a million per illegal it won't take long to take the reason for using them away. I also believe we should raise import taxes to this country to the point it would not be profitable for stuff to be built out of our country. Fair trade should be just that and before us Americans will work for 2 dollars a day we will over through the rich tyrants causing it. imo


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 10, 2010)

what-a-stihl said:


> But I believe this is the only reason how the Mexicans earned their high standard work ethic, is that they just show up everyday, not that they work harder than anyone else, and with this next generation of vaginas who call themselves men, showing up everyday is becoming uncommon. The hardest working men I've ever seen weren't Mexican at all. On my job you have to hustle, I mean you better be doing something all the time and you better be doing it quick, and every mexican I've seen doesn't have that drive, they have one steady pace all day and the white guys just work circles around 'em. Sure this upcoming crop of men is disheartening in many ways, but there still is some hard working young men out there with good upbringings who are out of work and would take any job available out there, but some illegal has it at the moment. I don't know why so many will defend and uphold another race and talk down about their own, have some pride for once.



Pride comes before a fall. Perhaps that’s what we are seeing on a grand scale. A nation too fat, dumb, and happy to get back what we inherited...that which our forefathers worked, and fought so hard for.

I'm confident, yet humble. There is a difference...pride is nothing more than empty glory. 

And as far as race goes, the only race I'm a part of is the human race. If you think America is about one 'race' or culture....you've missed it entirely. 

I think you must mean culture. Not much in American culture to write home about these days...no sense in faking it out of some misspent loyalty.

I'd rather stay loyal to solid fundamental principles that are proven across the history of mankind...while nations and empires rose and fell with the tide. Principles that originally made this country great.

Now then, there are many things about my grandfathers 'american' culture for example that appeal to me...but we can't continue to borrow glory from the past. They were humble, loyal to priciples, thankful, and confident.

We need to learn from the past...not off its dividends, as if we are owed something.

Every dawn is a new day...ya got to earn it living in the now. That is what I see the Latinos I care about doing.

Latinos, in general work as hard and smart as anyone....not harder nor smarter necessarily, though often is the case. Howbeit, anyone has that potential....fewer american there be that find it.

Latinos are steady, well paced, and smart. I have seen white guys work circles around them...though often because they work stupid and just look like they are getting more done. At any rate, I know a few mexicans in their sixties still working as hard as anyone. Why? Fountain of youth, or the principles of smart, well paced work ethics?


But I digress, this forum is indeed full of 'white' Americans that work and work smart. No question. That's the nature of the industry. However, it's been near impossible to find that element in the general american public. I've had limited luck.

I have a 24 yr old 'white' american on the crew that has been around for over a year and a half. He stands out amongst his peers. He's simply a younger version of me in the sense that he loves the job and goes home spent..but he's maybe 1 in 20. 

I cannot afford to hope to harvest 1 in 20 anymore....

I'm not selling anyone down the river....there is a current american culture you can thank for that.

I've got work to do....I haven't time for loyalty to failure. Loyalty to time honored principles gets the job done.

I've hired a legal foreign immigrant man that wants to work to earn his way for his family towards a dream......it doesn't get anymore american than that.


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## tree md (Mar 10, 2010)

I do not see it as a color/race thing. I have worked with all different colors and races. There are ambitious, smart, hard working people of every race and creed.

My family came out of Appalachia. Most of them were coal miners. My immediate family worked their way out of that place and I believe that is where we (I) get our work ethic from. 

My number one ground guy is black and came out of Watts in LA. He spent over 20 years in the Army, has been deployed three times in both current theaters of war, is a single dad and works two jobs. His work ethic is second to none.

I have worked with Mexican guys with a great work ethic. 

I have also worked with Mexican, white and black kids who want to just show up, stand around and collect their pay so they can buy a bag of weed. To tell the truth, I can tell no difference in the work ethic of the young, second generation Mexican/Americans and the black and white kids today.

You are always going to have the people who want to do just enough to get by and those who want to excel in every race.

I think we are going to have to fall on some seriously hard times before most Americans get a little hustle back in their step.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 10, 2010)

How does illegal become racial is my question. The bottom line is they are ruining the standard of American living. I don't care to compete with criminals who abuse our systems and live fifteen deep and work for ten dollars per hour as an owner of a non licensed,most likely non insured tree service. There are laws which are not being enforced that are causing just that. I should not have to read ten languages on products in America or learn spanish or provide tax moneys to build Spanish schools. It is not racist to expect law to be upheld imo.


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## tree md (Mar 10, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> How does illegal become racial is my question. The bottom line is they are ruining the standard of American living. I don't care to compete with criminals who abuse our systems and live fifteen deep and work for ten dollars per hour as an owner of a non licensed,most likely non insured tree service. There are laws which are not being enforced that are causing just that. I should not have to read ten languages on products in America or learn spanish or provide tax moneys to build Spanish schools. It is not racist to expect law to be upheld imo.



They passed a law here a couple of years back where local authorities could check the immigration status of suspects arrested during a crime. Also, they stiffened the fines for employers employing illegals and gave local authorities the power to check the legal status of employees. Illegals left in droves. I don't think it is any coincidence that my business skyrocketed around that same time. During that time, I had one guy call me out for a bid. I met another competitor there while writing up my own bid. I came back through that neighborhood a week later and saw a Mexican crew with AR plates doing the job. Climber was on a ladder with not a stitch of climbing gear...

Oh yeah, since then the supreme court struck down parts of our laws. Said local agencies do not have the jurisdiction to check immigration status, only the feds... Go figure.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 10, 2010)

We have E-verify. And if you dont have a current drvers license, no hire. Pretty easy to do.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Mar 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We have E-verify. And if you dont have a current drvers license, no hire. Pretty easy to do.
> Jeff



So why are there so many illegals in your state?


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## tree md (Mar 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We have E-verify. And if you dont have a current drvers license, no hire. Pretty easy to do.
> Jeff



Yeah, that's great for the companies on the up and up like yours Jeff. There are many out there who don't check though and those who are downright knowingly breaking the law.

Here's the thing. I am really not mad at the illegals. I can't blame someone for wanting to work and have a better life. I blame our government for not doing their jobs as far as curbing the flood of illegal labor coming across the border. I guess it is going to take a terrorist incident coming from South of the border before they get serious about securing the borders and I don't know if they will do it then. Either that or when enough Americans get a belly full of being unemployed and decide to do something about Jose the construction worker and decide they might need to do that job themselves...

As far as competing with illegals. Nothing new here, I've been doing it my whole career.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 10, 2010)

Same reason as you. Easy to get here. That dont mean they are working or taking jobs illeaglly, at least from companies that use E-verify and require a valid drivers license. That mostly is happening with companies that do residential and non-commercial work. I dont do residential. I got 13 guys and 11 are hispanic /Latino, and legal. Sure there are jobs for the owners of a small outfits that will hire them, but they are not my competition. 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Same reason as you. Easy to get here. That dont mean they are working or taking jobs illeaglly, at least from companies that use E-verify and require a valid drivers license. That mostly is happening with companies that do residential and non-commercial work. I dont do residential. I got 13 guys and 11 are hispanic /Latino, and legal. Sure there are jobs for the owners of a small outfits that will hire them, but they are not my competition.
> Jeff



I guess we will see these small companies that pay under the table and provide a job for them, but they are not taking a job an american wont take because the owner wont hire the the white boy because he wants 20 bucks an hour and usually is un-reliable or he would not be asking to be employed by this type of company.
Jeff


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## newsawtooth (Mar 11, 2010)

Hiring illegal immigrants is an incredible cost savings for the employer. No taxes, no social security, no unemployment tax, no workers comp, no paid overtime, no benefits and the immigrant is forced to keep their mouth shut or face deportation. A legal employee costs on average 1.5 to 2.7 times base salary. Even if an employer is paying an illegal immigrant $20 an hour, it is still a savings of $20.50 over a legal employee paid $15.00 (assuming the 2.7 multiplyer). Furthermore, living in the US illegally is not as easy or carefree as some would have us think. They work in slaughterhouses, commercial dairy farms, construction labor, de-boning chicken, these are not jobs that legal employees often take. Truth is, the employer doesn't want legal employees anyway as they negatively effect their bottom line. If they are caught, the employees are deported and new ones emerge to take their place.

There is a sense that hyperbole and speculation drive your opinions. If anyone can provide proof of widespread abuse of the system, I would be interested to see it. Anecdotal evidence or that provided by groups with a vested interest in manipulating the numbers is not valuable. It isn't a matter of standing up for your race, it's a matter of standing for equal treatment of people.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Same reason as you. Easy to get here. That dont mean they are working or taking jobs illeaglly, at least from companies that use E-verify and require a valid drivers license. That mostly is happening with companies that do residential and non-commercial work. I dont do residential. I got 13 guys and 11 are hispanic /Latino, and legal. Sure there are jobs for the owners of a small outfits that will hire them, but they are not my competition.
> Jeff



So you do powerline work and municipal type stuff? From what I have seen you have to be a millionaire to even bid on those projects. I finally got through to someone that showed me how to bid them and the project was for a year not to be paid until completion. I suppose it is just another way the rich keep the small guy out of the pie?


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> Hiring illegal immigrants is an incredible cost savings for the employer. No taxes, no social security, no unemployment tax, no workers comp, no paid overtime, no benefits and the immigrant is forced to keep their mouth shut or face deportation. A legal employee costs on average 1.5 to 2.7 times base salary. Even if an employer is paying an illegal immigrant $20 an hour, it is still a savings of $20.50 over a legal employee paid $15.00 (assuming the 2.7 multiplyer). Furthermore, living in the US illegally is not as easy or carefree as some would have us think. They work in slaughterhouses, commercial dairy farms, construction labor, de-boning chicken, these are not jobs that legal employees often take. Truth is, the employer doesn't want legal employees anyway as they negatively effect their bottom line. If they are caught, the employees are deported and new ones emerge to take their place.
> 
> There is a sense that hyperbole and speculation drive your opinions. If anyone can provide proof of widespread abuse of the system, I would be interested to see it. Anecdotal evidence or that provided by groups with a vested interest in manipulating the numbers is not valuable. It isn't a matter of standing up for your race, it's a matter of standing for equal treatment of people.



You want proof go into any well developed neighborhood and see it your self. Or any construction site just hang out in clean dubs and see how many approach looking for greenbacks!


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## newsawtooth (Mar 11, 2010)

That's just it Rope, that isn't proof of anything except your not so latent racism. Are you asking for documentation? Are you verifying? For all you know they could be Yale Forestry grads or Purdue Engineers. Also, if they're working, they might be contributing to your social security, which I will never see, but you might.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> That's just it Rope, that isn't proof of anything except your not so latent racism. Are you asking for documentation? Are you verifying? For all you know they could be Yale Forestry grads or Purdue Engineers. Also, if they're working, they might be contributing to your social security, which I will never see, but you might.



Try again they are illegals I have a video that I would love to figure out how to get loaded on here. It is a job I bid for a wealthy enough individual that instead of paying a fair American dollar for service rendered. Three illegals were hired that climbed bare foot with no climb gear or rope except for a ski rope to lower limbs,no hardhat and used a machete to cut the limbs. I feel this bunch has stole much work from me and other licensed businesses here in my town. My friend in construction is asked everyday by them worky worky and he asks for green card and they automatically look puzzled and like they don't understand. There are twenty million or is it billion illegals here in the US I have lived where they are, it is not too hard to distinguish them imo. PS: your attempt to play the race card is lame, I have friends that are legal Spanish immigrants but you pro alien types always seem to call someone racist for trying to speak out against the biggest threat to our country. imo


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## newsawtooth (Mar 11, 2010)

I would like to see that video, honestly. Not for arguments sake, but just to see guys using a machete and a ski rope. Were they islanders? It sounds like things the Aussies talk about. I get the lost work thing. It's just changing. Used to be tree companies had northern European names like Davey, Asplundh, Swingle, and Wright. Now it is Rope's gig and a couple Martinez and Rodriguezes. Labor intensive industries are going to attract illegal immigrants, always will as long as the laws are the way they are.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> I would like to see that video, honestly. Not for arguments sake, but just to see guys using a machete and a ski rope. Were they islanders? It sounds like things the Aussies talk about. I get the lost work thing. It's just changing. Used to be tree companies had northern European names like Davey, Asplundh, Swingle, and Wright. Now it is Rope's gig and a couple Martinez and Rodriguezes. Labor intensive industries are going to attract illegal immigrants, always will as long as the laws are the way they are.



Well construction was ruined before the tree industry so people in that sector have even more concern over this issue. I can't believe we have to even have discussions about illegal aliens and if it were not for the greed of the wealthy trying to get their grass and trees and construction done cheap we would not have to. Thing is; most Americans are not of the privileged snotty nosed brat society that seems to be running things. I write my senator all the time over this issue and to me they are criminals for not upholding laws of the USA. I have seen the rich neighborhoods that always seem to say good things about illegals because they want cheap yard-work not better mind you, cheap. The majority of American tax payers want them gone and the borders sealed, as they care about their children and grand kids, not because they are racist and you should think before you use that word referring to another human being, instead of using it as a smoke screen to justify treason. It is my full belief that if you employ illegal labor to do anything, you are a traitor to the American worker and need to be put before the firing squad. Their greed is unacceptable and their smoke screen efforts are boring and pointless. I still do not understand why we have any discussion over the word illegal.

Now cheap is in question when you factor in all the tax programs the illegals are abusing, health care,welfare etc.


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## what-a-stihl (Mar 11, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Well construction was ruined before the tree industry so people in that sector have even more concern over this issue. I can't believe we have to even have discussions about illegal aliens and if it were not for the greed of the wealthy trying to get their grass and trees and construction done cheap we would not have to. Thing is; most Americans are not of the privileged snotty nosed brat society that seems to be running things. I write my senator all the time over this issue and to me they are criminals for not upholding laws of the USA. I have seen the rich neighborhoods that always seem to say good things about illegals because they want cheap yard-work not better mind you, cheap. The majority of American tax payers want them gone and the borders sealed, as they care about their children and grand kids, not because they are racist and you should think before you use that word referring to another human being, instead of using it as a smoke screen to justify treason. It is my full belief that if you employ illegal labor to do anything, you are a traitor to the American worker and need to be put before the firing squad. Their greed is unacceptable and their smoke screen efforts are boring and pointless. I still do not understand why we have any discussion over the word illegal.
> 
> Now cheap is in question when you factor in all the tax programs the illegals are abusing, health care,welfare etc.


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## lone wolf (Mar 13, 2010)

*gps ap made to help cross the border.*

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4102361/critics-blast-immigration-phone-application?category_id=86858


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 13, 2010)

Tried reading the whole thread, just more and more of the same.
Had over 150 working for me at Eastlake, in San Diego.
Some real good, legal, and were learning English. Some could correct me!, and took every chance to do it! Absolutely wonderful to have on my crews. 
Others, bad, real bad. Scum of the earth bad. 
Good ones, welcome, bad ones, go home. 
That simple, nothing new to any wealthy country in history, bordered by one that is poor and corrupt.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

You should see East Lake now. Massive!
Jeff
Seem to embrace the Raywood Ash.


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## treeslayer (Mar 13, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You should see East Lake now. Massive!



cause you always be seeing double, jeff. 

ya gotta close one eye, like when you drive. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

Dang Dave, you are really a ?
Jeff


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## treeslayer (Mar 13, 2010)

only to you, El Jeffie, only to you.


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## mckeetree (Mar 13, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> only to you, El Jeffie, only to you.



Jeff is the old big Jefe isn't he.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 14, 2010)

Jeff, I heard!, still have good buddies out there, one is Mike Gillette from Brinkman, he was my boss at Gothic, now BM over there,Hes the guy behind the Dirty Jobs episode where Cub Cadet cleaned up some Military guys homes. The other is Reggie Rhea, he is CFO for CIRO'S. 
I ran all the maintenance there (at East Lake) what a job!
Loved workin out there, will return someday, you know of sutton or bishops tree services?


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## beastmaster (Mar 14, 2010)

I live this every day being a white climber in So. Calif. The industry has been taking over by illegals. This being said, I have many friends who Ive worked with over the years who came here illegally so I see both sides of the augment. As a people you can't blame them for wanting to have a better life. 
Our Gov. turns a blind eye so the rich can have cheap labor. Greedy business owners hire them(often exploiting them)to increase their profits. By not enforcing Immigration laws, were sending the message it ok and all are welcome. Illegal is illegal! I often fill like I am the one in a foreign country. I am often resented because I am white and keep out of the loop because i don't speak fluent Spanish. Its frustrating to say the lest. I can have a good work ethic and wonderful family, but If I sold drugs and got busted, I'ed still go to jail wouldn't I? Why? Its illegal!
Don't hate the people, Its our own gov. thats welcoming them with open arms. Take a way the incentive and stop sending out the massage its ok to enter illegally.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 14, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Jeff, I heard!, still have good buddies out there, one is Mike Gillette from Brinkman, he was my boss at Gothic, now BM over there,Hes the guy behind the Dirty Jobs episode where Cub Cadet cleaned up some Military guys homes. The other is Reggie Rhea, he is CFO for CIRO'S.
> I ran all the maintenance there (at East Lake) what a job!
> Loved workin out there, will return someday, you know of sutton or bishops tree services?



I have met Mike I think, and Sutton knows me, and Brian Bishop as well. I worked for Sutton in the 80's and sometimes bid against him. Brian is in Fallbrook now I think, I see his trucks parked there. He is President of the SDPTCA here. Everybody knows me here. When you get back, lets have a beer.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 14, 2010)

beastmaster said:


> I live this every day being a white climber in So. Calif. The industry has been taking over by illegals. This being said, I have many friends who Ive worked with over the years who came here illegally so I see both sides of the augment. As a people you can't blame them for wanting to have a better life.
> Our Gov. turns a blind eye so the rich can have cheap labor. Greedy business owners hire them(often exploiting them)to increase their profits. By not enforcing Immigration laws, were sending the message it ok and all are welcome. Illegal is illegal! I often fill like I am the one in a foreign country. I am often resented because I am white and keep out of the loop because i don't speak fluent Spanish. Its frustrating to say the lest. I can have a good work ethic and wonderful family, but If I sold drugs and got busted, I'ed still go to jail wouldn't I? Why? Its illegal!
> Don't hate the people, Its our own gov. thats welcoming them with open arms. Take a way the incentive and stop sending out the massage its ok to enter illegally.


Don't you E-verify, and require a current drivers license? 
Jeff


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## beastmaster (Mar 14, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Don't you E-verify, and require a current drivers license?
> Jeff



All I do is work my ass off and collect my check at the end of the week. I have no say in the hiring and firering or business related issues. We have 7 employees and only my self and one other guy have drivers license. Before this recession hit, this company did a lot of high-end jobs. We are one of the better tree company's in our area. You know I haven't seen a non-Hispanic tree climber in over 10 years out here
I am a hard working experience employee. It people like my self who have been squeezed out of the job market. Dry walls sewed up, construction in general, roofing, trucking, maybe Bush doesn't need these kind of jobs but theirs lots of blue collar Americans,black, white, Mexican, who are out of work because an illegal has taking his job and lowered the pay scale. I'm not hateing ,just giving my two cents worth.


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## lone wolf (Mar 14, 2010)

http://www.vdare.com/letters/tl_022710.htm


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## mckeetree (Mar 19, 2010)

beastmaster said:


> Its our own gov. thats welcoming them with open arms. Take a way the incentive and stop sending out the massage its ok to enter illegally.



A+ on that statement.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 19, 2010)

I could use a massage.
Jeff


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## beastmaster (Mar 20, 2010)

After a good massage they always want to come back for more. My bad.


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