# GPS and Tail Trees



## slowp (Jan 8, 2010)

Before winter started, the logger that plans to start up soon, and I --mainly I found a wonderful old growth punkin to use for a tail tree on one setting.
The problem was, we couldn't see the yarder for all the trees, or from the yarder, the tail tree. That's the bad thing about thinnings. Planning without seeing can take a lot of legwork. Skyline corridors need to be flagged in so I can approve the location and mark the additional trees to be cut. 

We hobbled around and then the first dump of snow came. So, it was game off. 

Well, in the meantime, we got some Garmin GPS's. I haven't spent any time until today trying to figure it out. After giving up on the instruction manual, (no I don't want to know all the restarante's at the junction with I-5) I started my usual learn by pressing buttons method. Here's the findings from my EUREKA moment.

I will go to the yarder setting and press the MARK button. This saves a waypoint, which I will name YARDER.

I'll then stumble down the hill to the big tree and make another waypoint. That'll be TREE.

I'll then highlite YARDER and that gives me the azimuth back up to the yarder.
I'll set my Silva Compass on that azimuth and I should come out at the yarder. We can flag a corridor this way. Stay tuned....I can't wait to try it out.


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## 371groundie (Jan 8, 2010)

have fun. ive done that alot for property lines. not survey grade exactly but gets me through where there is little or no evidence.


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## slowp (Jan 8, 2010)

371groundie said:


> have fun. ive done that alot for property lines. not survey grade exactly but gets me through where there is little or no evidence.



I'm a wee bit worried. The smallest error I can get it down to is 10 feet. But that's why we use regular compasses, no?


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## 371groundie (Jan 8, 2010)

correct. i use the unit to get my azimuth and then use my hand compass to navigate. i try to sight to where i want to hang my next ribbon so i cant side step off my line. check your unit every so often to make sure your azimuth is still the same, if its different, youre off line.


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## cowtipper (Jan 9, 2010)

Another thing you need to watch out for is how dense the tree canopy is. Most people think that the GSP will find the satellites when in the deep deep woods, so they leave their hand compass at home. They don’t understand why they are having problems getting a good satellite fix. To get the best reading make sure you start in a clearing so the GPS can get a good lock on the satellite. The denser the canopy the bigger error factor you will receive, on your true location.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jan 9, 2010)

I've just barely started with GPS. Only have a cheap Garmin from a couple of years ago.

The tall redwood discoverer guy Taylor just started a website in December. He listed 3 or 4 models on one page. I'll probably check those out and hopefully be able to buy one next spring or summer.

Does your do okay under some canopy?


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## Burvol (Jan 9, 2010)

slowp said:


> I'm a wee bit worried. The smallest error I can get it down to is 10 feet. But that's why we use regular compasses, no?



10 Ft.wide is usually prescribed, 15 is what the loggers and hand fallers like, especially when the roads kinda "get wide" around the nice timber, LOL


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2010)

Burvol said:


> 10 Ft.wide is usually prescribed, 15 is what the loggers and hand fallers like, especially when the roads kinda "get wide" around the nice timber, LOL



For that I go 12 feet. The GPS has a 10 foot error. That's why I can't use one instead of a compass. I will go a hair, and just a hair wider for downhilling. That seems to work well especially if I frequently go down or up to look sternly at the rigging crew. 

I am worried about getting a reading down in the timber. The Trimble sales guys said that it was easier to get readings in steep ground and timber than flat ground and timber. They also said the problem was with the boles of the trees, not the canopy. 

The only other GPS I have used was a spendy handheld Trimble--in Wisconsin where I needed it. It is too flat back there to know where you are. I used a compass and had to remember to use the sun to find my way back to the road. There's a lot of roads there too. The Trimble worked great. But now I will try to make do with the Garmin. 

I also had a "discussion" with the logger. He wanted to yard the tail tree in afterwards. He needs the tight, straight grained wood for building a carport. I just turned into a NO spouting machine. No No No NO.......

We had a similar discussion about a cedar in the same spot. :bang:


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## gallegosmike (Jan 9, 2010)

Check to see if your gps unit has "waas" built into it. It has more accuracy then a standard non-waas enhanced gps unit. 

Has anyone thought about using ir emitters on the yarder tower with a night vision monocular. Under foggy / low light conditions, ir emitters would stick out like a sore thumb!


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> Check to see if your gps unit has "waas" built into it. It has more accuracy then a standard non-waas enhanced gps unit.
> 
> Has anyone thought about using ir emitters on the yarder tower with a night vision monocular. Under foggy / low light conditions, ir emitters would stick out like a sore thumb!



Ummmm, we're kind of low tech. We talked about sending his son up the tower with a pole and a flag. Maybe a strobe.


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## redprospector (Jan 9, 2010)

I would think you could come out pretty close on the corridors that way. I've got a little Garmin E-trex, I've used it to mark property lines that way. The E-trex has an area calculator built into it, so that's what I use it mostly for. When I call for an inspection on a project I can tell them real close to how many acres I have ready to inspect.

Andy


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## gallegosmike (Jan 10, 2010)

slowp said:


> Ummmm, we're kind of low tech. We talked about sending his son up the tower with a pole and a flag. Maybe a strobe.



Try something like this; http://www.magnalight.com/pc-46707-...ts--180-lumens--stud-mount--9-32v--850nm.aspx and a cheap water proofed ir monocular. You would be able to see the ir strobe in the fog and rain. They have strips of ir leds that could be mounted on the yarder tower. Just a idea to save you some grief. 

A laser torch laser mounted on the tower (about $50.00 to $100.00) and cheap water proofed ir monocular (about $75.00 to $100.00) might work as well.


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## Humptulips (Jan 10, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> Check to see if your gps unit has "waas" built into it. It has more accuracy then a standard non-waas enhanced gps unit.
> 
> Has anyone thought about using ir emitters on the yarder tower with a night vision monocular. Under foggy / low light conditions, ir emitters would stick out like a sore thumb!



Trouble with that whole thought is you need to have the corridors marked and then cut out before the yarder moves into the setting.

I never could make that GPS stuff work in the timber. Hope you have better luck then I. For me the compass wasn't the answer either. I mostly used a lot of flagging and tried to keep several in sight to line up on as I worked my way back. The GPS sure would be nice if you can make it work.


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## Cowboy Billy (Jan 11, 2010)

We just went through that over new years. We were going through thick cedar and pines. At one point he did something to check the accuracy and he had a 40' margin of error. Where it was open near the one survey marker he had a 2' margin of error. He had a four or five year old garmin and his accuracy was changing as we went. I don't know much about it my job was running the paint can. It took us four hrs or more to mark out 3/4 mile of property line in the woods and snow. And three and a half days to make a 12+ wide trail with my little 450 dozer.







Can you see the deer?

The deer sure love my bulldozer! They followed me all the time I was making this trail. They would come up to within 60 feet of me while I was working. I am sure I knocked down enough cedar for them to eat good all winter.












Billy


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## cowtipper (Jan 12, 2010)

slowp said:


> For that I go 12 feet. The GPS has a 10 foot error. That's why I can't use one instead of a compass. I will go a hair, and just a hair wider for downhilling. That seems to work well especially if I frequently go down or up to look sternly at the rigging crew.
> 
> I am worried about getting a reading down in the timber. The Trimble sales guys said that it was easier to get readings in steep ground and timber than flat ground and timber. They also said the problem was with the boles of the trees, not the canopy.
> 
> ...



slopw,

I need to learn something today... what do you mean by boles of the trees...

Thanks


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## Humptulips (Jan 12, 2010)

cowtipper said:


> slopw,
> 
> I need to learn something today... what do you mean by boles of the trees...
> 
> Thanks



trunks


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## gallegosmike (Jan 12, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> Trouble with that whole thought is you need to have the corridors marked and then cut out before the yarder moves into the setting.
> 
> I never could make that GPS stuff work in the timber. Hope you have better luck then I. For me the compass wasn't the answer either. I mostly used a lot of flagging and tried to keep several in sight to line up on as I worked my way back. The GPS sure would be nice if you can make it work.



I was figuring that most , but not all the time. The yarding site was prepped before hand. There has to better way to do this and do it quicker. I am a tech geek that loves to run saws.


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## cowtipper (Jan 12, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> trunks



Thanks


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## Humptulips (Jan 12, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> I was figuring that most , but not all the time. The yarding site was prepped before hand. There has to better way to do this and do it quicker. I am a tech geek that loves to run saws.



When I was working I would have been happy to just have the tower painted a color that didn't blend with the fog. I liked Skagits but who ever came up with the idea of painting them white was clearly out to lunch.


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## slowp (Jan 12, 2010)

One guy here always spray painted the top bright orange.


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2010)

Our crew uses GPS all the time, for all sales. 

We use the Trimble GeoXx series units, and swap between Trimble TerraSync, ESRI ArcPad, and FMRC TwoTrails software depending on the application. TwoTrails is probably my favorite -- it's USFS free software still in Beta and you can do traverses using compass and pacing while opening and closing with GPS points. That means you don't need a clear view of the sky to mark a boundary. Some of the software is spendy -- TerraSync is like 2 grand but is _super _accurate (like as in <6 in, post-processed). 

Your mileage may vary, but on the whole, I really like GPS as a field tool, and I also like being able to add my field data to a GIS database. Saves time reinventing the wheel later. Also makes it easier to look over stands for planning purposes from the comfort of the office.


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## oregoncutter (Jan 15, 2010)

*Thunderbird Red!*



Humptulips said:


> When I was working I would have been happy to just have the tower painted a color that didn't blend with the fog. I liked Skagits but who ever came up with the idea of painting them white was clearly out to lunch.



Most the yarders I hooked under were thunderbirds with the gantry tops painted red. Didn't allways help much since Southwest Oregon gets it's fair share of fog as well. Did alot of standing at the yarder and picking a line to a fixed high object or getting on a high spot and finding a waypoint in reference to the yarder setting, then between using a compass alot of ribbon, and some good guesses. I never sidewashed or hung down on anything to bad. I was only a Hooktender when I had to be though not my cup of tea.


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## Humptulips (Jan 15, 2010)

Sometimes the bright paint doesn't even help.
I was working for a company about 1980 and they switched me to another side, a Skoomum-Tyee slackline on a sale called mystic, It was aptly named. We were yarding in along the road and the shovel was about 50 feet in front of the yarder. We would pull up in the crummy and bail out over the hill. I would head to the back end. I never saw the yarder for the first week and only then because I had to go up and move a guyline. Totally socked in foggy all day every day. Kinda spooky as you couldn't see anything beyond about 40 feet.


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## RPM (Jan 19, 2010)

Slowp ... staff compass and steel chain. That was my introduction to engineering on the coast ... once! I run the corridors in once kinda like a P line if i can't see end to end and then fine tune the other way out with the corridor flagging. We clear cut mostly around here but are starting to have do partial removals for "asthetic" purposes


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## slowp (Jan 20, 2010)

My first attempt at locating the tail tree from the yarder with the GPS was a flop. The GPS had no trouble locating satellites in the timber. But, in my hurry to get up the hill, I forgot my idiot notes. So, I winged it. 

I marked a waypoint at the tree then hustled up the hill to the landing. I marked a waypoint at the landing and thought I had a bearing to head back to the tree. NOT. I was about 150 feet off. I was hungry so wandered back down to the pickup and headed down the icy section of road.

While munching on my sandwich, I played with the GPS and think I found a better way. I even wrote it down. If there isn't too much snow, I'll try again tomorrow. I should be able to take a bearing from the tree to the yarder tomorrow.


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## WoodchuckVT (Jan 20, 2010)

*Excuse Me,for what it's worth*

First off, I am not a logger, I just cut alot of firewood. That said, I have had some experience with a compass and GPS. I have hunted in a 30,000 acre forest for over 30 years. A compass and an azimuth, still need an orientated map to be "somewhat" accurate, hence survey equipment. A GPS {consumer type} is only "close", even on a good day. The Government system, {which we are not allowed to have}, the ones that allow bombers to drop bombs down chimneys' are within 3 to 6 feet. Just because your GPS says it is accurate to 10 ft. , it is not. Try this simple experiment. Drive a post and marker, in the middle of a large opening. Take a waypoint. Leave the GPS unit on. Walk or drive a quarter of a mile. Press the "go to" button, and see how close you come to it. Now try this in the woods. I am not trying to be a know it all," just sayin". You guys do what you do well, and I will now mind my own business. God Speed, VT. Woodchuck


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## slowp (Jan 21, 2010)

VT. Woodchuck said:


> First off, I am not a logger, I just cut alot of firewood. That said, I have had some experience with a compass and GPS. I have hunted in a 30,000 acre forest for over 30 years. A compass and an azimuth, still need an orientated map to be "somewhat" accurate, hence survey equipment. A GPS {consumer type} is only "close", even on a good day. The Government system, {which we are not allowed to have}, the ones that allow bombers to drop bombs down chimneys' are within 3 to 6 feet. Just because your GPS says it is accurate to 10 ft. , it is not. Try this simple experiment. Drive a post and marker, in the middle of a large opening. Take a waypoint. Leave the GPS unit on. Walk or drive a quarter of a mile. Press the "go to" button, and see how close you come to it. Now try this in the woods. I am not trying to be a know it all," just sayin". You guys do what you do well, and I will now mind my own business. God Speed, VT. Woodchuck



That's what I'm trying to do. The "Post" is a five foot diameter doug-fir or if going up, the yarder. I have heard this can be done. I have operated the Trimbles which are the extreme accuracy brand and very spendy,  but just for mapping roads or, figurring out where I was in a unit. I had a hard time navigating back east where there are no landmarks to be seen, or hills. 

Oregon State University did a study of "cheap" GPS units a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Garmin did not come out on top. I'm hoping things have improved since then. I'll try again today. My method is not to navigate by the GPS but to only get a compass bearing from it that will bring me out at my fence post. Then I go to the usual method of running a straight line, my trusty Silva compass. 

The thing beeps about 200 feet from the "post" and says you are very close.


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## WoodchuckVT (Jan 21, 2010)

*Gps*



slowp said:


> That's what I'm trying to do. The "Post" is a five foot diameter doug-fir or if going up, the yarder. I have heard this can be done. I have operated the Trimbles which are the extreme accuracy brand and very spendy, but just for mapping roads or, figurring out where I was in a unit. I had a hard time navigating back east where there are no landmarks to be seen, or hills.
> 
> Oregon State University did a study of "cheap" GPS units a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Garmin did not come out on top. I'm hoping things have improved since then. I'll try again today. My method is not to navigate by the GPS but to only get a compass bearing from it that will bring me out at my fence post. Then I go to the usual method of running a straight line, my trusty Silva compass.
> 
> The thing beeps about 200 feet from the "post" and says you are very close.



My point of the post was that I have tried that with several different GPS units of different brands, as well as my friends trying it, and none of us have "hit the mark" yet. I have a few friends that are surveyors, they use them constantly on larger tracks of land and say they are "close enough". Scary huh? 
What I have found that works the best, as being old school map and compass, is to get your waypoint with your GPS, then for future reference, turn on your GPS and let it find as many satellites as possible. In your menu of your GPS, under setup, are two very important steps. The first is the choice of "true north" or magnetic north. you must choose magnetic as you are using your compass with the GPS. The second step is to set your screen or page menu to show the azimuth, this step varies by Brand of unit, but can be done on all of them. Then the next start up of the GPS will give you more accurate information for what you are trying to do. I have had better luck this way as I always trust my compass and it does not fade in or out and "lose Signal". Plus a compass orientates faster than a GPS. Hope this helps, and hope I didn't bore you death!! VT. Woodchuck


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## slowp (Jan 21, 2010)

*Success*

Well, today's trial worked. I remembered the OSU guy saying I would need to get several points at the tree. Since the Garmin doesn't click, I punched it in and out of a page that gives the azimuth to the yarder a few times, then took the average azimuth and then switched to my trusty Silva Ranger Compass and flagged my way ahead. I came out where I could get a bead on the yarder, so it will work if the logger chooses to go that route. 

The bad news is that it came out onto the edge of a logged corridor and will cause that corridor to become a bit wider for a ways. Good tail trees are dear for the rest of that unit so we might have to use it. Here's some pictures from the two days of wandering about. 

This is the Cedar where I have to say NO. The logger jokes about taking it. 







Here is the suitable tail tree. It is a Douglas-fir.





The yarder is up yonder somewhere.





Almost up on the landing.  I wasn't running a line. I needed to get a waypoint at the yarder.


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## slowp (Jan 21, 2010)

I used hard to see yellow flagging. It won't be confused with any flagging that is already in the unit. The huckleberry brush doesn't have leaves right now, but here's a bad photo of trying to look back and do a backsight to make sure my line is straight. I'm near-sighted so have to flag closer due to that also.






Here's a younger tail tree in use, or ready for use. Operations were shut down for the winter that hasn't happened--much.





And the rigging holding the line around the anchor. 





The Chevy did not do any sledding today.


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## Humptulips (Jan 21, 2010)

A question.
I never thinned on the FS but only on private or state land. I or the owner of the company always ran the corridors. It wood seem to me to be the way to do it. That way you get them where and how wide you want.
Is it the policy on all FS sales for the sale administrator or what ever your job title is to run the corridors and if so does the contractor have say in where they are located?

And by the way you should mark that cedar to go. It looks like a safety issue.


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## slowp (Jan 21, 2010)

Nope. I usually never run corridors. I wanted to see if it could be done with the GPS. I had the time, so thought I'd give it a whirl. It just seemed like there had to be a better way than going up and down over and over in search of a good corridor location. I usually just paint the trees to cut for them. 

Most of the bigger outfits have hooktenders who seem to have good homing instincts. 

Nah, if that cedar got cut, it might land on a huckleberry bush.


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## slowp (Feb 1, 2010)

*Update*

Today, the loggers had 4 corridors to lay out. Once again, tail trees were scarce and hard to find. This time, I went to the tail tree, got an azimuth reading for going back up to the yarder and they set their compass to it and ran the corridors. It worked every time. I think I've got it figured out.:wave:


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