# Advice on Techniques to Cut a Tree up (Tornado Damage)



## kkelly311 (Mar 11, 2012)

Thought I would see how experienced people would approach this. The March tornadoes did a lot of damage near me and I have been helping a friend cut up all of his damage. One of the last trees to do is one where the root ball came up and the tree is laying pretty much parallel to the ground about 2 to 3 feet off the ground until it reaches the upper large branches that are supporting it. With very little equipment, I was wondering what techniques people may use. I thought maybe to build a pyramid of logs under it just before it branches out to keep the trunk parallel to the ground, then work on the top ...... then work back toward the root ball moving the pyramid back (and using a hydraulic jack) as logs are cut. This is about a 35" diameter oak tree. Not sure if it will try to stand back up as it is being cut. If we get lucky there may be an excavator or bobcat nearby, but I am planning on worst case scenario of nothing being there other than large saws and a jack. Thanks


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## tree md (Mar 11, 2012)

I personally just work those blowdowns from the top back, reading the tension as I cut. I never stack log pyramids or break out hydrolic jacks... It is nice if you have a skid steer to lift it while you cut but not necessary. Pretty easy work when they are already on the ground for someone with experience. They can be deadly though... Especially to the inexperienced.

9 times out of 10 they will spring back up... And do it quick, fast and in a hurry.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 11, 2012)

tree md said:


> They can be deadly though... Especially to the inexperienced.
> 
> 9 times out of 10 they will spring back up... And do it quick, fast and in a hurry.



Way too often I read about a child or pet getting killed when the rootball falls back in the hole. Keep the whole area (including the hole area ) secure while cutting.

Is the tree on flat or sloping ground? 35" diameter chunks falling from 3' high, you don't want to be downhill when they are cut loose.

You will need a BIG saw to safely cut those chunks. DO NOT get on top of the log once it is cut loose from the upper branches. Not only can it stand up fast enough to throw you, but it seems to do so unexpectedly.

Rick


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## kkelly311 (Mar 11, 2012)

the tree is on prett flat land ........it may be a little uphill


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## husabud (Mar 11, 2012)

Often times the tree can be saved if the root plate is still intact. Be very careful. If you have an adjacent tree to pulley off of try up righting it and then put guy wires on it. With the right care, it should come back. Good luck. Or cut from the top down and keep everyone away from it. Look on YouTube, it has been shown what can happen.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 11, 2012)

I would pay good money to see a 35" diameter Oak pulled back upright with a pulley. Please get a clue before posting. One Carby on here is enough.
Rick


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## husabud (Mar 11, 2012)

Yeah thanks Rick. AA and I just got out of a meeting and decided you should join the group. We're not talking negative blocking here, and I guess I missed the 35" part, but anything is possible with the right tools and the know how. Yeah YouTube is probably to blame for more injuries than alcohol but the technique can be found there as well as the injuries. So BIOYA


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 11, 2012)

I guess you also missed the part about not having any heavy equipment. People don't read the whole post, but feel free to give advice on how to do it. Doing that is just DUMB because somebody could get hurt following that advice. I will always call BS when I read bad advice. If you don't like that then too bad.
Rick


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## husabud (Mar 11, 2012)

Yep too bad. :taped:


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## Big L (Mar 11, 2012)

Yes, I believe it's important to read the entire post carefully prior to giving any advise, that's for the professionals as well as those that think they are. I'm neither, but here's my experience with a 24" red oak blow-down last august.

When I first saw this scenario, I thought what the hell are the odds this would happen? The ~24" oak up-rooted to the North near a wetland crossing next to my new driveway, it fell onto a ~12" oak some 25' away snapping that oak near it's base, pushing that oak over, and coming to rest at the peak of a snapped off standing dead oak another 20' away. :msp_cursing: Keep in mind the 24" oak was near a 10' cliff, so the 12" oak's base was 10' lower. Consequently the majority of the now nearly horizontal 24" oak was 10 to 15' off the ground!

The trees stayed there for a good couple months ... hoping a good stiff wind would come along and bring down the snapped and leaning 12" oak. It didn't happen. Ultimately, a much younger friend with much better balance than I shimmied out onto the big oak and wrapped a chain around the smaller oak about 20' up ... and gave her a yank with the backhoe. Down it came. Bucked up the smaller oak, took down the standing deadwood, and then attacked the larger oak. Because the big oak was still so far off the ground, the first cut was to sever the tree from the stump, but not without first securing the tree to the the 19,000# backhoe. Sure didn't want that tree to end up at the bottom of the cliff! The cut was made with a well thought out escape plan, and fortunately, the root stump had little spring left in it ... and slowly laid back down to its shallow grave. Then was able to pull 10' sections, one at a time out of its cliff hanging position.

Moral of the story is that I would have never attempted this removal without heavy equipment .. never. Without seeing your situation *kkelly *, I question whether removing a 35" oak just 2 or 3' off the ground without heavy equipment is the best decision. Whatever you do, plan well, be careful, and I hope you have a good understanding of physics.


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## himiler (Mar 12, 2012)

The different methods you mentioned would indeed work if you for a fact knew the amount of weight you were dealing with. Kind of crazy to have everything set up just to realize a crosstie or jack isn't set right or can't hold the weight and slips at the last moment allowing the whole house of cards to come crashing down. 
A static large tree with tons of stored energy looks exactly the same as a static large tree with no stored energy. It even seems ok the split second before the energy is released . . . then all hell breaks loose and everybodys life is changed for the rest of their lives in a moment. You could either walk away laughing and talking about how close you and others came to death, or others could be attending the funeral you caused including being the guest of honor at your own. 
Question: Do you know how to estimate the weight you're dealing with?
Steve


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 12, 2012)

If it is already on the ground follow treemd's advice and work from the tip back, a power pole pruner comes in handy as to keep out of the roll if it rolls or springs back up,use caution tape and barricade the rootball and hole, keep wedges in you *CHAIN SAW CHAPS* rear pocket, wear *hard hat*, start by cutting (felling) the now upright limbs back to supporting forks then under cut knotch with wedges to keep from damaging saw bar as you work your way back down the trunk if it raises all the better, take small cunks off so that you can see the tendencey of the tree to raise or flopp, could do either, if it flopps then the rest of the trunk will have to be under cut knotched till the root ball balances it out, I have had them come up quick and make sure you arenot on the trunk when it does, Ie power pole saw, i did this cotton wood on a steep hill then for saftey we used a gcrs on tree behind it to set the root ball since it was next to a public trail in Colorado. the tree actually liffted more with each 16" log removed from about 30 feet and back. but I have had them spring back up dangerously quick or flopp. be careful.
Paul

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## Da83moon (Mar 12, 2012)

Where in TN are you? Just wondering becuase I was helping a buddy saturday down in Ooltewah and had allot of the same scenarios as you. We had finally gotten the trees that we tangled up in the big trees cut off, and started working the bigger oaks and hickorys. We had the issue of the inexperienced (not that I'm the most) aruging with me over this same issue. We had the truck and trailer backed up where we were loading and it was close inough to the root ball to cause trouble when it came over. Several people siad, neah no way it would stand up. I told them if they wanted it cut then the obstacels and people have to be moved away. I used the tactics listed above, and started at the top. Sure enough I got down to the base and up she came. After that the guys were a bit more aware of the dangers that can happen if safety isn't taken. I took the approach and cut down a few inches, and then brought it up from the bottom because I could see that it was going to stand up on me.


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## tree md (Mar 12, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> If it is already on the ground follow treemd's advice and work from the tip back, a power pole pruner comes in handy as to keep out of the roll if it rolls or springs back up,use caution tape and barricade the rootball and hole, keep wedges in you *CHAIN SAW CHAPS* rear pocket, wear *hard hat*, start by cutting (felling) the now upright limbs back to supporting forks then under cut knotch with wedges to keep from damaging saw bar as you work your way back down the trunk if it raises all the better, take small cunks off so that you can see the tendencey of the tree to raise or flopp, could do either, if it flopps then the rest of the trunk will have to be under cut knotched till the root ball balances it out, I have had them come up quick and make sure you arenot on the trunk when it does, Ie power pole saw, i did this cotton wood on a steep hill then for saftey we used a gcrs on tree behind it to set the root ball since it was next to a public trail in Colorado. the tree actually liffted more with each 16" log removed from about 30 feet and back. but I have had them spring back up dangerously quick or flopp. be careful.
> Paul
> 
> View attachment 228527
> ...



Yes, wedges are a very good idea to help out with those. I did so many of those blowdowns over the Summer I lost count.

I had one job where I had 2 36" Oaks on the ground. I bid the job for three trees but there were actually 5 of them. There were two more underneath the large Oaks that I could not even see. I was using my 660 with a 36" bar. I got it pinched in one of the larger trees on my last cut near the root ball. I had no wedges with me so I had to break out my 044 to make a relief cut. Wedges would have come in real handy.

I did all 5 of those trees with a skid steer. I cut the trunks in 10' sections and the skid steer grabbed them and slung them into the wooded area like rag dolls. 5 blowdowns in 6 hours. Made $1800. Not bad for 3/4 day of work.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 12, 2012)

Sounds like Rita in Silsbie in 05 and Ike in north houston in 08, only we didnt have a skid steer lots of loading and dumping Out front for fema, View attachment 228541
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The one hung up pine I qouted to move the brush and leav the logs and when we got it piced down I had droped a 2 ft round 4-6 " from a gas meter that was burried under all the crap, I had my Partner James go look and he said Whew, LSOB, In 05 i bought an old skid steer but all the work dried up and never used it, haled it home and used it 3-4 times put alot of money and tres and trailer and sold it 2years later for a loss, in 08 before spring before IKe,
Paul


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## tree md (Mar 12, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Sounds like Rita in Silsbie in 05 and Ike in north houston in 08, only we didnt have a skid steer lots of loading and dumping Out front for fema, View attachment 228541
> View attachment 228542
> View attachment 228543
> 
> ...



I know a lot of guys that travel and do storm work. They buy equipment in the state they are working in then sell it before they leave and write it off for taxes. They don't look at it as a loss. They just look at it as the cost of doing business. I don't really travel to storms much unless there are circumstances like there were for me last Summer in Alabama. I have a lot of family there that asked me to come down and clean up their storm damage. I like to use local guys and put their equipment to work. It pumps much needed money back into the local economy.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 12, 2012)

yea both storms were family with trees down then stayed but all the rentals were gone and didnt have money to buy till it was all done still work but the money dried up, we did mostly hangers and stacked out front, really poorboying it, made for long hard days but we worked for about 3-4 months on and off both storms, didnt really plan on that but kept going home and bringing more stuff back, bought the skid steer for one 18,000 job that the insurance didn't come through on, they had 7 acres of downed trees,
PaulView attachment 228544


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## tree md (Mar 12, 2012)

Don't even get me started on the insurance companies!!!


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 12, 2012)

Yea They ended up getting like 2300 for the few on structures didnt even cover the one over the well thaqt needed a crane for and they bought a 4x4 tractor at 0 down and did it themselves little by little, left the skid steer for sale for hire out front of my Moms in Silsbee til after new years, then had to suttle dump truck plus smallcar +++ took three trips to get every thing back, had paid help % with them driving something and one took a bus back "cause he was in luv" left me hanging, I think if I had knoked that many doors and done that many quotes here i would have more residual so your buddies can have the storm chasing, 
Paul


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## lfnh (Mar 12, 2012)

Pics would be useful.
Equipment -trucks, winch, snatch blocks and saws ?
Experience with windthrowns ?


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## Saw Bones (Mar 23, 2012)

kkelly311 said:


> Thought I would see how experienced people would approach this. The March tornadoes did a lot of damage near me and I have been helping a friend cut up all of his damage. One of the last trees to do is one where the root ball came up and the tree is laying pretty much parallel to the ground about 2 to 3 feet off the ground until it reaches the upper large branches that are supporting it. With very little equipment, I was wondering what techniques people may use. I thought maybe to build a pyramid of logs under it just before it branches out to keep the trunk parallel to the ground, then work on the top ...... then work back toward the root ball moving the pyramid back (and using a hydraulic jack) as logs are cut. This is about a 35" diameter oak tree. Not sure if it will try to stand back up as it is being cut. If we get lucky there may be an excavator or bobcat nearby, but I am planning on worst case scenario of nothing being there other than large saws and a jack. Thanks



I did a similar tree that was downed by a hurricane. I started at the top, carefully removing the large limbs over head, dropping them and clearing them out of the way. (always be aware of spring tension on the limbs) then limbed it like I would if it had been cut down for timber. Then cut up the trunk into firewood sized rounds to be split later. (Keep aware that it could spring back up at any time during the process as weight is removed) Plan every cut, take your time and be careful. Always have an escape route.


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## kkelly311 (Mar 23, 2012)

I basically have been very careful and taking a lot of time ...... started at the top working backwards. There were about a dozen trees like this on the property and I have included two photos of the progress. One of the large oaks had flattened a boat trailer as you will see in the pic.View attachment 230409
View attachment 230410


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## shooterschafer (Mar 26, 2012)

kkelly311 said:


> Thought I would see how experienced people would approach this. The March tornadoes did a lot of damage near me and I have been helping a friend cut up all of his damage. One of the last trees to do is one where the root ball came up and the tree is laying pretty much parallel to the ground about 2 to 3 feet off the ground until it reaches the upper large branches that are supporting it. With very little equipment, I was wondering what techniques people may use. I thought maybe to build a pyramid of logs under it just before it branches out to keep the trunk parallel to the ground, then work on the top ...... then work back toward the root ball moving the pyramid back (and using a hydraulic jack) as logs are cut. This is about a 35" diameter oak tree. Not sure if it will try to stand back up as it is being cut. If we get lucky there may be an excavator or bobcat nearby, but I am planning on worst case scenario of nothing being there other than large saws and a jack. Thanks



First of all dont take my advice because Ive been called a hack on here K. Not to long ago I had a job that entailed a large cottonwood that the wind blew over right on top of a house, I had a crane contracted to lift large sections. While waiting on the crane I messed around with building braces under the base I used the wood cut out of the top, what worked best (for me) was cutting large wedges and pounding them underneath the base . When I started to cut sections when the crane showed up that base and root ball only moved about a 1/4 " The large wedges that I had cut worked extremely well. But I cant really say if that would work in your situation, be careful as everyone else has said.


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## Currently (Mar 26, 2012)

kkelly311 said:


> I basically have been very careful and taking a lot of time ...... started at the top working backwards. There were about a dozen trees like this on the property and I have included two photos of the progress. One of the large oaks had flattened a boat trailer as you will see in the pic.View attachment 230409
> View attachment 230410



Were you working on Short Tail Springs road or up on Snow Hill?

Spent a bit of time there doing cleanup with a group of volunteers I worked with all summer last year in Apison. Seen some freaky things such as 3 inch limbs springing back a foot and a half towards my kneecap and rootballs coming up so fast that it threw the saw out of my hands.

It is an exercise in statics ... you got to read the forces, moments and tension in the wood and if you get it wrong, the saw gets pinched or worse. 

What is funny is watching people with a 16 inch bar just burying it in the trunk without working on the end to relieve the tension. They will spend ten minutes trying to cut the trunk beating it mercilessly and they could of done twenty times the work in the limb area using the saw for what it was really designed to do.

Find a couple of people that know what they are doing and ask questions. Work with a bobcat if you get a chance. There are a couple of groups that have experience and don't mind teaching someone who wants to learn. Never cut alone and never have two people cuting on the same tree. If your saw gets pinched, don't yank it out, the handle will break ... (hanging my head on that one). Call for help and have someone cut you out.

Never climb on two or more trees that are down, the tensions are hard to read and the other tree may make the one you are working on move in unexpected directions. Keep several sharp chains, when you hit wire, nails, embedded rock or just see sparks flying, change the chain immediately. A dull chain is your worst enemy because if that wood starts splitting lengthwise, you need all the cutting speed you can get to relieve that tension and get out of there.

Never sever a spring pole with one cut ... make several small cuts to relieve tension. Same thing with large branches (more than 6 inches diameter) that go up in the air where you can't reach them, cut a wedge out at the crotch on top and leave a hinge at the bottom so that it has a controlled fall. Leave the hinge in place. Finish cutting it after you are done doing the small stuff at the end working your way to that cut. It can stop the tree from rolling on you. 

It has been said before, wear PPE ... hardhat, safety glasses, ear protection, gloves, steel toe boots with good soles. Most importantly, wear chaps, not only do they protect you from the chain, they also protect your skin on your legs with all the springing and abrasions that happen when clambering over that twisted mess.

*MY BIGGEST PET PEEVE: 

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE CUT THE LITTLE STUFF CLOSE TO THE GROUND SO NO ONE CAN TRIP ON IT OR WORSE, IMPALE THEMSELVES FALLING ON A ONE INCH TRUNK THAT IS CUT AT A 45 DEGREE ANGLE A FOOT ABOVE THE GROUND!!!!!!!*

Some a-hole(s) over there is too freaking lazy to bend over and I am just waiting for some poor volunteer trip while hauling brush impaling themself on the way to the ground. I really hope to catch this idiot(s) and personally give them a demonstration why they should do this.

One more thing ... leave about 5 - 6 feet of the trunk attached to the root ball, it gives leverage to the backhoe, bulldozer or bobcat to pry the rootball loose. Kind of hard to do with a one foot stump that has no leverage.


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## kkelly311 (Mar 27, 2012)

I was over off Snow Hill Road. I was hoping to get a crew up and help in Apison last spring and was not able to get up there. I had heard it was major tree disaster up there. Another big hazard around sites like this are the nails sticking out of the scattered lumber/roof decking. One other thing I noticed was how many people stop and want to talk/chat while you are trying to get stuff done. I thought about making a do not disturb sign at times and put it by the road (if you know what I mean).


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## treemandan (Mar 27, 2012)

It sounds like I would put some limbs under the trunk close to the stump and cut it free from there first. if there is a chance it could stand back up then deal with that first.


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