# Wrist injury from starting chainsaw



## skymckinley

The past couple of times I've started saws (MS440 and MS460s), if the pull cord locks up while I'm pulling it I get a tremendous pain in my wrist which lasts for a few minutes. I don't think that I have particularly weak wrists so I figure I must be doing something wrong. What gives?


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## southsoundtree

One thing is to pull the cord out a little bit until you feel the resistance of the pawls in the starting mechanism engage, then a short, fast pull. 

If you have the decompression valve, you are probably using it, but if not, start using it. 

When you say "locks up" what do you mean? 

How are you starting it? Ground start, drop start, between the legs start?


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## skymckinley

Thanks for your prompt response!



southsoundtree said:


> One thing is to pull the cord out a little bit until you feel the resistance of the pawls in the starting mechanism engage, then a short, fast pull. ?



I'll give this a shot.



southsoundtree said:


> If you have the decompression valve, you are probably using it, but if not, start using it.



I have been, and that seems to help. 



southsoundtree said:


> When you say "locks up" what do you mean?



The pull cord gets about half way out and then abruptly stops. The engine doesn't do anything.



southsoundtree said:


> How are you starting it? Ground start, drop start, between the legs start?



Between the legs. If the cord locks up while I'm trying to start the saw I resort to drop starting it because it seems to be easier on my wrists.


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## treemandan

skymckinley said:


> The past couple of times I've started saws (MS440 and MS460s), if the pull cord locks up while I'm pulling it I get a tremendous pain in my wrist which lasts for a few minutes. I don't think that I have particularly weak wrists so I figure I must be doing something wrong. What gives?



You constntly have to exercise to keep your wrists in good shape. See a trainer for good specfic exercises.
One thing my guy tells me is to hold your arm out and with a tight wrist make the alphabet by waveing you hand. Get it? Give it a shot.


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## GASoline71

A trainer? Hmm... just need a better starting technique.

Try the old foot through the rear handle with the saw on the ground... that way the saw is firmly planted, and your wrist is not absorbing any shock while you pull...

Gary


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## treemandan

GASoline71 said:


> A trainer? Hmm... just need a better starting technique.
> 
> Try the old foot through the rear handle with the saw on the ground... that way the saw is firmly planted, and your wrist is not absorbing any shock while you pull...
> 
> Gary



I honestly can't. Boot don't fit in the handle. Its not the starting of the saws that I have problems with anyway.
I have all sorts of people working on me. Not really trainers.


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## TimberMcPherson

Maybe you should look at installing a D ring starter handle like the chainsaw racers do. It would give you better purchase with your hand and would probably minimise strain. I have thought about puting them on my 88's because they can really be hard to get moving.


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## The Lorax

How come they don't fit the EZ start system on the big saws?
The smallest saws with the least need for it get the EZ system and the bad boys don't.
Don't make sense to me


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## belgian

This topic caught my attention. I have developed a wrist problem for more than one year now and my doctor said it will not go away easy. Looks like I have stretched a tendon or so in the past that causes chronical problems after serious effort (lifting, starting a saw, ...)to the point that I loose lot of strength. Most of the times, it takes a few days to get back to normal. 
sure sucks for starting heavy saws, so I have to be pretty careful (starting on the ground most of the time).


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## timberwolf

+1 for the "D" handles.

I put them on most of my saws anything over about 80cc. Esp importaint when compression gets bumped up.

The small starter handles get held down past the second joint in the finger so put more strain on the tendons. Also only 2 or 3 fingers take all the strain. A "D" handle moves the hold point up closer to the first joint of the fingers allowing the fingers to wrap around and lock off this way too all 4 fingers spread out the stress.

Another trick too that I use on really high compression saws >200psi to make them a little easier to start is to drill out the decompressor, the small exit hole on the side if enlarged makes it less prone to kicking off in the middle of the pull. On bigger 120cc plus saws I have even drilled a couple extra bleader holes in the decompressor to keep them from kicking off under compression alone.


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## Dale

Trade your saw in for one with bad compression.


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## Saw Bones

treemandan said:


> I honestly can't. Boot don't fit in the handle. Its not the starting of the saws that I have problems with anyway.
> I have all sorts of people working on me. Not really trainers.




I have trouble with putting my foot through the handle also. I put a wedge or a piece of wood through the handle and stand on that.


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## TimberMcPherson

Where can you get D starter handles from?


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## timberwolf

Easy bet is Places that sell skidoo, seadoo or ATV products. Often they have cheep replacement D handles in a selection of funk colors for 5 to 10 bucks.


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## coydog

one thing to keep in mind about the decompression valve is it will pop back up if you get any combustion at all, sometimes without being very noticeable. If your pull cord is stopping mid pull then there's a good chance the button popped up between pulls and you weren't aware. Try getting in the habit of checking it in between every pull. A coworker of mine broke a finger trying to start an 088 when the pull cord stopped mid pull. If you get a "tremendous pain" in your wrist after this has happened my guess is that you probably injured it when this happened.


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## Brmorgan

Is there something wrong with the recoil mechanism on these saws? We have a couple very-well-abused 044s where I work (without compression release) and I've never once had one lock up or pull back hard on me. But I do always make sure the piston is at TDC before giving it a good dedicated pull, which I think is critical. I have had my 660 pull back hard on occasion if I don't do this, but it also has an Elasto-start handle which mitigates some of the shock.

Also, what is this business of "between-the-legs" starting? Maybe it's just a different description for something that I in fact do myself sometimes, but it just sounds dangerous. I'd like to see a picture of what is meant by this. Generally I drop-start all my saws except for the 090 since it's so bloody heavy and big that it's easier to stand on the handle and pull. That saw HAS beat me down a few times, once bruising my right knee quite badly

And regarding D-handles, I have been advised before that they are even worse to use in a situation where a severe kickback is possible, because your hand is enclosed in the handle. I personally don't see that as being any worse than the post of a T-handle being between my fingers though. But I did have a 6-HP lawn mower engine with a D-handle backfire once on me (ignition timing was off), and it ripped the handle out of my hands so violently I thought it had broken every finger on that hand. That isn't to say a T-handle would have been better.

I developed tendonitis and mild Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in my wrists when I worked grading blocks at a fingerjoint mill a few years back, and it still bothers me if I get doing something repetitive or with a lot of vibration. After a good day of CSM-ing, I have next to no strength (and sometimes feeling) left in my hands and wrists from the constant pressure and vibration of pushing the mill. Something the physiotherapist showed me to help alleviate tendon-related wrist pain is to hold your arm at shoulder level in front of you, palm out like a traffic cop giving the "stop" sign. Then pull back on the tips of your fingers, pulling the back of your hand towards your elbow. You'll feel a good stretch at the underside of your wrist, and it'll hurt a bit at first, especially if it's inflamed. But just pull until it starts to hurt and then hold for 15-30 seconds at a time, and repeat throughout the day. You can also try turning your arm over and doing it with your hand pointing downwards. This procedure stretches out the tendons a little bit and just loosens things up like any good stretching does, and helps lessen the pain somewhat for me anyway. It sounds like it might have an effect similar to the outstretched alphabet exercise previously described, albeit more forcefully.


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## texx

mate i know exactly what you mean that same thing has happened to me twice over the last few years with my little 034 and it hurts .
so if it helps you aint the only one .
the saw will start a hundred times no probs then when you least expect it it tricks ya and just goes solid half way through the pull and then you feel like your arm is an inch longer
when it happens it is like when an old kick start bike kicks back


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## Bermie

Guys with big feet...try this for the on the ground start:

Take a look at the rear handle of the saw..the flat bit that protects your right hand. See...it's flared out quite a bit on the right side...

Put the saw on the ground, kneel with your left knee touching the saw ( or however close is comfortable for you), put your right foot OVER the handle so your HEEL is holding the rear guard down on the flare, hold the top handle with a strong straight arm, everything is locked in tight, chainbrake on and start it up! Use those shoulders and your back, not just your massive forearms...technique wins. 

BTW even my size 5 twinkle toes won't fit through the handle with steel toes on


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## texx

sorry bernie but this is not from starting method i have started a saw or outboard or other pull start machines thousands of times i start my saw on the ground ALWAYS with my foot on it and that wont help stop this happening .
it happens midway through the pull of the rope the thing just locks solid now some thing has to give and in all the muscle groups being used to pull the start cord the wrist is the weakest link and thats what cops the jolt and it hurts .
ok i am 53 and its happened to me 2 or 3 times in my whole life and every time with this one saw .
i may have a touch of RSI in my right wrist ( no smart comments please ) from years of cutting hardboard underlay with a stanley knife , i suppose this adds to the problem.
but the main thing is when it happens you are never ready for it and thats when it gets ya .
the closest i can compare it to is a motorbike kicking back maybe its the timing a tiny bit out i dont know , maybe next time if there is a next time it will spur me into action to find the cause


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## Bermie

Ok, so its a compression thing by the sound of it....are you anticipationg the 'lockup' and perhaps not giving the pull all the effort through the shoulders that it needs to get past the compression, and getting caught with the jolt???

Several others have made good comments, the decomp button, pulling the cord slowly till the pawls engage...

Hope you crack the problem...


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## southsoundtree

Is the pain on the inside of the wrist?
As you said, RSI. Maybe carpel tunnel or at least tendonitis.

A neutral wrist position is important for everyone. This will have the back of the wrist bent and a straight-ish line from your inner forearm up to your finger tips, as they are wrapped around the started handle. 

Warm up and stretch before starting work. Open and close your hands with a little resistance 30-40 times, wrist rotations, and stretch.

For those of us that do a lot of labor, and have strong forearm muscles, tight muscles can hold tension on the tendon pulley sheaths, always causing a bit of irritation. 

Not to prescribe medication for you, but I've found that some preventative anti-inflammatory like generic advil liqui-caps does wonders for me, without stomach upset.


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## Philbert

The Lorax said:


> How come they don't fit the EZ start system on the big saws? The smallest saws with the least need for it get the EZ system and the bad boys don't. Don't make sense to me



+1

Probably has to do with a 'real man' type of thing.

Philbert


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## JONSEREDFAN6069

see if u can get a starter handle from a newer arctic cat z120 or a polaris equivalent, a little smaller and less goofy lookin than the larger sled handles.


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## Crofter

What timberwolf mentioned really works. The advice about slowly leaking the piston past compression to TDC, then letting the recoil back in and giving it a pull then allows the flywheel to get almost a whole turn of momentum before it can fire and snap back. That works good too when you take the second to do it. I have had carpal tunnel surgery both hands and I feel the effects of a kicker.

Occasionally a decompressor valve can be faulty and kick out too soon. I have heard Lakeside mention that coils can loose their retard function and you have ignition occurring near 30 Deg before top dead center. I am sure that is a rare failure mode but possible.


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## woodguy105

Also, what is this business of "between-the-legs" starting? Maybe it's just a different description for something that I in fact do myself sometimes, but it just sounds dangerous. I'd like to see a picture of what is meant by this. Generally I drop-start all my saws except for the 090 since it's so bloody heavy and big that it's easier to stand on the handle and pull. That saw HAS beat me down a few times, once bruising my right knee quite badly

brmorgan=

hold the top of the handle with the left hand, pinch the rear handle just above your knees (so it's secure) and use your right hand to pull start then blip the throttle etc...of course with the CHAIN BRAKE ON! I hate ground starting and IMO this method is safer (for me) then drop starting. I believe it's shown in the Stihl catalogues.

woodguy-


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## woodguy105

Between the legs start is in the Stihl Manuals not catalogues -


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## Brmorgan

woodguy105 said:


> hold the top of the handle with the left hand, pinch the rear handle just above your knees (so it's secure) and use your right hand to pull start then blip the throttle etc...of course with the CHAIN BRAKE ON! I hate ground starting and IMO this method is safer (for me) then drop starting. I believe it's shown in the Stihl catalogues.
> 
> woodguy-



That sounds incredibly awkward, but maybe that's because I have rather long legs and arms... I'll have to try that sometime. Never had a problem drop-starting though.


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## TimberMcPherson

woodguy105 said:


> brmorgan=
> 
> hold the top of the handle with the left hand, pinch the rear handle just above your knees (so it's secure) and use your right hand to pull start then blip the throttle etc...of course with the CHAIN BRAKE ON! I hate ground starting and IMO this method is safer (for me) then drop starting. I believe it's shown in the Stihl catalogues.
> 
> woodguy-





This is a very good system of starting, worth trying a couple of dozen times. If you try it once you wont like it because we never like new things, but after a few times you will probably find it pretty comfortable, safe and strain free.


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## texx

you guys dont seem to understand the wrist injury this guy is talking about will be the same as what happened to me maybe 2 or 3 times in 15 years and quite a few thousand starts .
it has nothing to do with the starting method it is a problem with the saw the cord locks solid half way through the pull and feels like a back fire .
it is not a big problem for me just hurts when it happens i start my saws on the ground always , i worked in a saw mill for about 2 years and if i had drop started a saw then i would of got at the very least a hell of a talking to ,that is a massive no no .one of our loggers was seen drop starting in the forest by a forestry guy and was told ,once more and he would loose his saw license for use on crown land or some thing along those lines and be kicked out of the state forest


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## OLD CHIPMONK

Just wait til you get old & still trying to pull it ! Your fingers all arthritic ,your knees ache, backs hurtin & you can't remember where you put the saw ! Once you find it, you can't remember what you were do'in in the first place ! Oh well, just  &


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## BuddhaKat

*Check your rope*

Check that your pull cord isn't tangled. They don't always rewind correctly and can get bound up. Not much likelyhood of it being a compression issue unless there's fluid in the cylinder. Something other than fuel/air would have to physically stop the piston, but if it was already spinning successfully for the first half of the pull, there's something else causing the problem. In my experience, it's been the rope.


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## Texas Traveler

woodguy105 said:


> Between the legs start is in the Stihl Manuals not catalogues -


 For me it is safer then drop starting any time. have you every watched some young dumb kid showing off drop starting a saw?
When you get old & have new shoulders & 2 new knees you learned to do things the easy way.
Don't laugh either your day is coming.
You don't need a D ring on a 088 unless you want to lose some fingers.
Damn it hurts.


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## stihl sawing

I agree with Gary, Put it on the ground. your foot will take a lot of the shock instead of the wrist. I always drop start mine but if my wrist was bad it would be started on the ground.


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## TKO-KID

It seems to be common with newer stihls. Our BR550's and br 600's do it but our smaller br 340/380's don't.

you just have to pull them out a few inches till it tightens and then start it from there.


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## KRS

Bermie said:


> chainbrake on and start it up!



A cold saw choked with the high idle engaged wouldn't be started that way, I don't think. I wouldn't anyway.

KRS


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## buildmyown

I know what he is talking about. My saw has never done it but my 500cc snowmobile without a decomp has. Locked up so bad mid pull I thought I pulled my shoulder out. Not my shoulder but knocked my back out real good laid me up for alomost a week. Not really sure what caused it but I am on the look out for it now.


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## doorstop

I find that by wrapping cloth based friction tape on the starting handle, it make for a better grip and softens any shart edges.


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## treevet

I also wrap a towel around the handle sometimes. I haven't had wrist injury but have what is called "trigger finger" in the joints of 2 knuckles on right hand and 1 on the left hand (drop start 020). The D handle helps spread the pain if decomp doesn't work. Mine sometimes doesn't work when engaged on first pull. Sometimes I have the groundy do the deed when I am really hurting. We have broken 2 D (rescue saw) handles. 

View attachment 83895


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## treevet

noticed that little insert image character is not on top in this thread and i thought it was in error. then thought about it for a bit and it makes sense. you could be surprised with some ugly $hit without expecting it. good idea!


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## Nailgunner

I've got a touch of sore wrist syndrome from lots of manual work over the years, it sucks a bit but it's better than no exercise.

One could try the large-handle approach by drilling a bit of broom handle and fitting it where the starter handle goes. it's a bit redneck, sure, but it would prove the concept at zero expense.


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## glenn31792

sky -the pull cord locks up while I'm pulling it


Any chance that you have a ring habging up on a port?
How about a wrist pin missing a clip?


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## Climbing Fool

I asked about the ezy start system on larger stihl saws and was told it will not store enough kinetic energy to start anything larger hence they only use them on ms250's. 

I may have misunderstood but it seemed that some folks were suggesting that they start saws with the chainbrake off? In Australia that is a guaranteed fail on a chainsaw safety and handling course and I have drummed it into my guys over the years. It is something we just don't do and we rarely have problems starting saws.

My doctor told me years ago that wrist problems are almost always a result of poor technique which compels the wrist to bend in the action you undertake. My old squash coach pointed this out also during video training sessions and as weird as it sounds, if you suffer from this problem video your starting technique. Don't be surprised to see you are bending your wrist. Just put the saw on the ground mate. It is how I was taught and how I teach my guys and to date we have no issues with any of these sorts of injuries. I am 42 so it isnt an age thing either.

I took note of the d ring suggestion and that sounds like a good idea. The priciple difference between a d and t handle is the you can use that awfully handy opposing thumb when drawing on a d ring and lock your fingers. At least you save on finger injuries!

My chiropractor recommended wrist rotations in the morning to prevent injuries like the ones being discussed. I honestly don't do them every day but hey, if pro athletes warm up carefully it seems smart that pro sawhands should too.


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## treevet

Climbing Fool said:


> My old squash coach pointed this
> 
> My chiropractor recommended wrist rotations in the morning to prevent injuries like the ones being discussed. I honestly don't do them every day but hey, if pro athletes warm up carefully it seems smart that pro sawhands should too.



Neat sport, you still play?

Wrist rotations with a small sledge hammer or a splitting maul will strengthen as well as warm up. You can adjust the resistance by moving your hand up or down the handle.


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## Climbing Fool

treevet said:


> Neat sport, you still play?
> 
> Wrist rotations with a small sledge hammer or a splitting maul will strengthen as well as warm up. You can adjust the resistance by moving your hand up or down the handle.



Love the game but 2 years ago I chose climbing over squash as my crappy swing action was putting pressure on my right elbow. Of course the best solution would be to get more coaching and improve my swing....but common sense just aint that common now is it. 

Good idea on the rotations too. Of course now all I need to do is actually warm up occasionally......


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## treevet

coydog said:


> one thing to keep in mind about the decompression valve is it will pop back up if you get any combustion at all, sometimes without being very noticeable. If your pull cord is stopping mid pull then there's a good chance the button popped up between pulls and you weren't aware. Try getting in the habit of checking it in between every pull. A coworker of mine broke a finger trying to start an 088 when the pull cord stopped mid pull. If you get a "tremendous pain" in your wrist after this has happened my guess is that you probably injured it when this happened.



My 88 acts like that sometimes even when the button is in. We put a D rescue handle on it (we have broken 2 so far) and sometimes I wrap a towel around it but esp when it is cold sometimes you are gonna get pain when starting. Long term injury may likely follow.


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## slowp

skymckinley said:


> The past couple of times I've started saws (MS440 and MS460s), if the pull cord locks up while I'm pulling it I get a tremendous pain in my wrist which lasts for a few minutes. I don't think that I have particularly weak wrists so I figure I must be doing something wrong. What gives?



Both 440s--Twinkle and the Barbie Saw will do this. The decomp valve is in, I've got the saw on the ground with my boot toe in the handle, the chainbrake is on, most of the time, the saw is warmed up--sometimes the saw is cold. I pull on the rope pull and the decomp valve pops out somewhere in the pull sequence, and throws the hand back with the pull cord. They'll do it several times when this happens, doesn't matter if you pull the cord out to where it meets resistance, doesn't matter what if anything, you'll have your hand/wrist snapped back several times before the decomp stays in for the whole pull. It makes for bad language.

A coworker suggests holding down the decomp valve while starting when this happens. If I have a long enough reach, and I think I do, I'm going to try it the next time this happens. Do ya think it'll hurt the saw?


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## treevet

That is what I do on my ms880 or it is suicide.


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## boltonranger

*Also try...*

You can do the ground start but not with boot in the handle.
Squat next to saw; and put right knee on top of rear handle with some of your weight on it. Left hand grips front handle right pulls cord BUT use shoulder with elbow bent. Saves my wrist. Chain brake if you like.
Yeah Patty I've held decomp in on Stihl; gives you a black thumb, no harm to saw but can't do on side decomp like Huskies have.
:greenchainsaw:
-br


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## Raymond

skymckinley said:


> The past couple of times I've started saws (MS440 and MS460s), if the pull cord locks up while I'm pulling it I get a tremendous pain in my wrist which lasts for a few minutes. I don't think that I have particularly weak wrists so I figure I must be doing something wrong. What gives?



Like Southsoundtree said...You are using the decompression valve on top of the motor right? Not just on the choke pulls but even after it hits. :computer:


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## Brushwacker

A while back in the chainsaw forum it was posted starting the 660 or 066 cold by pulling the starter out slow several times with the choke on to prime it,then use the compression release for a normal fast pull and it would usually start in 1 or 2 pulls with the choke still on. I have been doing this and it is much less often I have the handle jerk out of my hand using the procedure.
I often use the procedure on other saws also. Lately when using the 660 it seemed to prime as well doing the slow pulls with the compression release on.
Try it if you haven't. Most saws vary a little to how they start best so experiment until you find what is best. If your hands still getting tortured and your saw can't be tuned to start within your comfort range may be best to invest in a milder starting saw. I bought an old 044 of ebay for a little over $200 a couple years ago that feels a little down on compression. It pulls little more then effortlessly and usually pops in 1 or 2 cold and starts 1 or 2 after. 1st pull usually warm. I put a factory duel port on it and it may not be the fastest 044, but it screams with a 20" and I have no disire to change anything on it or to try to replace it. Just haven't experianced any saw that works that hard and is that easy on the operator between the easy starting and its sweet handling charactoristics. I have an fairly new Makita 6401 which starts almost as well . 
Mabe woods porting a saw would help. I think you loose a little compression but am not sure how it affects starting.
Elastostart handle is a plus.


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## Highclimber OR

Haven't experienced that pain yet but I know what you are talking about. I'm with Gary, try the saw on the ground with the foot on it. Perhaps you should wrap the wrist and lighten up a bit.


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