# Splicing Loopies



## Climber2 (Mar 20, 2004)

Can someone tell me where to learn to splice whoopies and loopies? I've never done any splicing except 3 strand.

Mike


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 20, 2004)

Talk to Nick Araya, loopies he should be abe to just walk you through.

I use a coathanger on a carabiner, tape and a needle.

For stitching I take a few strands from a burried yarn to lock the backsplices down.

The only technical thing you need to know is the formula for the sliding burry lenght. 

I'll ask a buddy how long it should be and he'll tell me "Two fid lengths"....okay, what is a fid length in inches?

I should write that down somewhere one of these days...


----------



## BigJohn (Mar 20, 2004)

Isn't it 22 times the diameter of the rope? I can't remember the if that is correct. I lost my Toss video in a break up with a girlfriend. Strange thing for a girl to want to keep. I used to get b1tched at for watching it all the time or being online here and spliceing to all hours of the night.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 20, 2004)

I thought that's what it was.

5/8 is 2 fid lengths or 27.5 inches.

So I guess i forgot to add the measuring stick to the tool list.


----------



## dbeck (Mar 21, 2004)

*fid length chart*

http://www.samsonrope.com/home/newcommfish/hard-aluminum-tubular-fids.cfm?ProdNum=189 

I hope I did this right...I have not posted a link before. This page will have a chart on it w/ fid lengths. This should help some of you out.


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 21, 2004)

The bury varies depending on who made the rope, what it's made of, the construction, and the diameter. For a polyester single-braid it hovers around a fid and short fid to around 2 fids long. (1 fid = 21 rope diameters....usually)

It's not exact science, but it's best to go by the manufacturers directions (which you can obtain from ALL good manufacturers). Measure carefully! 

A long bury with a nice smooth taper is best.

love
nick


----------



## Climber2 (Mar 21, 2004)

Thanks for all the info. I did find instructions at Yale's page.

http://www.yalecordage.com/html/splicing_instructions.html

Mike


----------



## dbeck (Mar 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Talk to Nick Araya, loopies he should be abe to just walk you through.
> 
> I use a coathanger on a carabiner, tape and a needle.
> ...



As far as the technical things go...the sliding bury part(coining JPS)...be sure the line enters the braid on one side and exits the oppsite side. That is, if you started your 2 fid length bury on the left side, it should exit the right side. Failure to do it this way could result in slippage, so I've been told.(courtesy of Mr. Gere)

I hope that makes some sense, I have no pics or drawings. Does anyone know where to find arborist - specific splicing instructions?


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dbeck _
> *As far as the technical things go...the sliding bury part(coining JPS)...be sure the line enters the braid on one side and exits the oppsite side. That is, if you started your 2 fid length bury on the left side, it should exit the right side. Failure to do it this way could result in slippage, so I've been told.(courtesy of Mr. Gere)
> 
> I hope that makes some sense, I have no pics or drawings. Does anyone know where to find arborist - specific splicing instructions? *



dbeck, Are you explaining the difference between a locking brummell and a normal non-locking brummell? 

According to ANSI, splicing shall (SHALL) be done in accordance with manufacturers specifications. Yale, New England, and Samson (who I consider the Big 3 in arborist rope manufacturing in the US) all have splicing direction on their websites for the Yalex/Tenex/Nerex rope. Only New England offers the locking version of the brummell (though they show the mobius brummell, which is more complicated and tough to do in some bulky ropes). So technically, we should be using the locked brummell so much...unless it's Nerex....have you ever seen nerex?

The locked version usually does not score as high in breaking tests. The regular version scores higher, but is more likely (though very UNLIKELY) to slip/fail at low loads (which is what much of our climbing is at...one-three hundred pounds on a rope that can hold many thousand. It is for this reason that I almost always use the locked version of the brummell. I have on occasion used the "normal" version upon request or when the strength is crucial (sometimes on dead-eye slings for rigging out big wood). 

So, yeah, play around with the brummell and learn the differences in the locked and unlocked versions. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. 

love
nick


----------



## dbeck (Mar 23, 2004)

*loopie thread?*

I was trying to explain the adjustable splice portion of the loopie. Adjustable slings are shown in Yales directions, but it shows one fid length instead of two and they make no point of exiting the opposite side for the adjustable splice.
The reason I posted it was because climber2 put up a link w/ yales directions and I remembered that. Did not want climber2 to make improper loopies!


----------



## Climber2 (Mar 23, 2004)

Dbeck, thanks for the tips.

Mike


----------



## dbeck (Mar 23, 2004)

*strength decrease?*

say you are using 5/8 tenex (17100 avg strength, lbs) to splice these loopies. How much strength do you guys feel you retain in that scenario? This is different than an eye splice in that you are using two strands in the girth hitch loopies form...just curious how you see it!


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 23, 2004)

I'll start.

17000 ABS. Double it...now you're at 34,000. Give about 10-12% because of the splice, so you're down to about 30,000. 

The angle of the dangle of the girth hitch may also detract some strength. 

love
nick


----------



## GFB (Apr 12, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

I just purchased some 3/4" Tenex and made my first loopie. I could not find the exact instructions, so I used a 1/2" one purchased from Sherrill as my guide. I also used the info from the manufacturer's site on fid lengths etc. I had determined that the finished buried section was 1 long (16") and 1 short (4 3/4") fid length. After completion, that was not true, and it's only 16". I realize now that the rope passing inside changed the outside rope far more than I would have guessed. Do you think this is enough to secure it? The total amount of rope used for this sling was 15', so it gives you an idea of the finished size. Also, the buried section of my store bought whoopie is 8 1/2". Does this work because the length of the section is tight against the tree instead of against itself? Your thoughts please.

Thanks,

Gary


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 12, 2004)

The burry should not be against the tree, but the bend that the pully passes through. The sharp bend adds friction, you should try to dress the bury out before stting the block too.

with 5/8 tenex the burry should be around 28inches so I think, so you may be a bit short the there Gary.


----------



## GFB (Apr 12, 2004)

Thanks John! 

The woopie is the one with the shorter bury, and I was wondering if it's because it's pulled tight against the tree over the entire length of the buried section. The loopie is mainly against itself, with some on the tree on each end of the bury. Do the requirements change as the rope changes diameter, or should it just change proportionately like the fid length? If I stick with the 1/2" store bought as a model, the finished one should be 20 3/4", so a fid and a half should do it.

Anyone know what source can provide this info?

Thanks,

Gary


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *I'll start.
> 
> 17000 ABS. Double it...now you're at 34,000. Give about 10-12% because of the splice, so you're down to about 30,000.
> ...



Nick, Are you talking about a loopie, whoopie or splice? What configuration? And what is your source for this info? I have never seen a loss as low as 10-12% for a loopie or whoopie.


----------



## NickfromWI (Apr 13, 2004)

In Yales printed instructions for adjustable slings (whoopies)....

WARNING: Derate rope strength 12% when using adjustable splice.


Makes sense. Where the tail comes out, there is a drastic change happening in the rope. There is a big bump in the strands that are made to make the opening for the tail to come out of.

love
nick


----------



## TreeJunkie (Apr 18, 2004)

Does anyone have a set of directions for splicing loopies,,, i see yales woopie directions, but thats not what we are talking about here. What splicing tool do you guys usually use?


----------



## dbeck (Apr 18, 2004)

wire coat hangers work good...


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2004)

I do the coathanger too. I bend it onto an odd carabiner.

5/8 is a 28 inch bury for tenex.

2 fid lengths, a fid is 22*d 

22*(5/8)=13.75*2=27.5


1/2 inch is a 22 inch bury


----------



## TreeJunkie (Apr 18, 2004)

Jps do you use this formula for eye slings also?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2004)

I do a brummel on Eye slings.

I have an I&I I use for my big saws, just girthitch it to the handle and place a carabiner onder it


----------



## TreeJunkie (Apr 18, 2004)

what is everyones preferance for rigging up in the tree, loopie or eye sling? 
Why does the fact that you are girth hitching a loopie not degrade the strength as much as say w/ webbing or reg rope? I've heard girth hitching can reduce strength up to 50%: why does this not apply to loopies?


----------



## Lumberjack (Apr 19, 2004)

I perfer a loopie.

A girth hitch that is over only one strand of the tail puts more load on it, thereby reducing strength. Sherrill's (and many others now) make the eye longer so the girth hitch rests on 2 peices of rope. 

On a loopie the girth hitch passes over 2 peices, so there is some degradation in the strenght, but not as bad as an eye sling that ony goes over 1 peice of rope.


----------



## dbeck (Apr 19, 2004)

my understanding is an eye sling is one rope (obv.) while the loopie is two ropes because it is a continuous loop and doubles back on itself when girthed. When there are two lines in use, you have twice the strength. Remember to reduce ratings according to splice/knot on all lines!


----------



## TreeJunkie (Apr 22, 2004)

nick, How many feet do you recommend to start out w/ for making an average sized 5/8 loopie. I need to know how many feet to order.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 22, 2004)

Figure out the Dia. of the wood you'll be working on most.

then find C from D. 

Double that figure for the length of rope.

Then add several inches for the tail, terminal backsplices and waste. 

Add a couple more inches for the reduction of lenght with the burry.


----------



## Lumberjack (Apr 22, 2004)

I stayed up last night making loopies.

I only made 2 cause I got rather sleepy as I didnt start till 12. But I made one that is made with 3/8 for life support use. And another out off 1/2 for general rigging. 

Tonight I will make some more. What I figure is that you can make them as big as you want, but if you cinch them down you get a tail that becomes very long and impractical to deal with. I plan on making mostly 10'ers (so it will fit up to 3'), but also a couple smaller and maybe one or 2 bigger. Just think of the average sized wood you deal with and go from there.

I think I am with JPS, I use the weight of the block to help me sling it around the spar. I take the rope out of the block and tie it off to my saddle, swing it around, adjust, tie piece and cut.

I plan on keeping 1-2 3/8 whoopies in my ditty bag along with the Art RG and my other junk. That way my redirects can be very easily made, with a minimal amount of friction, or a second tie in without a problem.


Climbing frictionless is so much easier.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *
> I think I am with JPS, I use the weight of the block to help me sling it around the spar. I take the rope out of the block and tie it off to my saddle, swing it around, adjust, tie piece and cut.
> *



And if you keep the burry, or pass through portion in the hand swinging it around, it's all ready to set upwhen the block comes around. Less fiddling with it.

I don't know abouy using a loopie for TIP anchor, there are enough good FC designs out there that this seems like going backwards.


----------



## TreeJunkie (Apr 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Figure out the Dia. of the wood you'll be working on most.
> 
> then find C from D.
> ...


What do you mean find c from d, You make it sound as if you have written directions. I didn't know there were any. 
What i want to make is probobally on for wood up to say up to 15'' diam, and one larger for up to 36". What length of tenex would you start w/ to aquire these two sizes?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 22, 2004)

Take the diameter of the wood and multiply by Pi to get the *C*ircumferance.

Your rope should be more than 2 times the Circ. of the wood you normally work with to account for waise shrinkage and the ends that are outside of the loop.

The previous post is my method of guestimating the lenght of rope needed.


----------



## TreeJunkie (Apr 22, 2004)

Excellent thanks JP, that's what i needed to hear. I just ordered about 100 worth of tenex from SEAMAR. Got some in all diam. between 3/8 and 3/4. Hope i see it soon.


----------

