# Climbing Saw Favorites



## SpikedSupra (Jun 23, 2002)

Hey everyone,
Tell me what your favorite climbing saw is and why its your favorite. Any details on why its your saw in the sky would be helpful.
Thanks


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## WillClimb (Jun 23, 2002)

I personally think that the two best are:

Stihl MS200T
Husqvarna 335XPT

I haven't used the Husky much but the Stihl is sweet. The bars seem to bend pretty easy though.

If you're looking for something a little more economical then try the Echo CS-3400. It will do all that you need in a climbing saw and at a fraction of the price.


WillClimb


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## Stumper (Jun 23, 2002)

Stihl 019T. The 020T and the Husky 335xpt are the same displacement but rev higher. I like the 019T because it is available with the toolless chain tensioning system (very handy up in the tree) and because the swept front handle allows 2 handed use in awkward positions.


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## DDM (Jun 23, 2002)

I Prefer an 046 Mag with a 24-28" bar on it. If your going to cut it Cut it!


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## treeman82 (Jun 24, 2002)

I have to vote for my favorite which is the 020T. It has plenty of power, the 16 inch bar is good enough till I call for my 044 with the 25 inch bar for the big removals where wood needs to be rigged out. The gas tank on the 020 is plenty to get through a good size pruning job, or to get through at least till lunch on a removal job. The saw is perfectly balanced and is pretty light weight. The bad thing about it though is the almost five hundred dollar price tag. I don't know if this would help you Forrest, but the other night I was over at Home Depot visiting my buddy over there. I happened to notice in the power tool isle a new commercial grade climbing saw made by echo. I would highly suggest you investigate this saw before you check into the 335 or 020T simple based on price. I don't really think I looked at the price, I was more interested in the design, balance, and feel of the saw... but I would have to say a price of about $200 sounds pretty close. What interests me about this saw is that it has the top handle construction, plus the ring on the back for saddle attachment. I wonder if Home Depot is looking to cater to professional arborists now, or if they are opening themselves up for liabilities now when homeowners decide to climb with poly rope and an echo climbing saw they bought at DIY central.


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2002)

I use a 335 at work for tops and limbs and bring in the 262 for larger stuff.
The 335 runs good once it`s warmed up say after the first two minutes of operation.
It`s nice and light , well balanced and is over priced.
You might require two saws and Echo would be a consideration due to pricing but again it depends slightly on the dealer as well.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2002)

Husky 335 Pricing

$409.95 with a 14 inch bar and one loop of chain 
Rated RPM 13,800 
Displacement 2.2 cubic inch or 35cc 
Engine Power 1.6kW 
Powerhead Weight 7.5lbs 
Fuel Capacity .63 pints 
Chain Oil Capacity .34 pints 
Features: 
Electronic Ignition 
Quickstop Inertia Chain Brake 
Automatic Oiler 
Forest Service - USDA Approved Muffler 
Air Injection Air Filter System 

020T

Specifications 
Displacement 2.15 cu. in. (35 cc) 
Engine Power 2.2 bhp (1.6 kW) 
Weight (Powerhead only) 7.9 lbs. (3.6 kg) 
Fuel Capacity 0.73 pts. (.37 l) 
Chain Oil Capacity 0.51 pts. (.24 l) 
Oilomatic® Chain Picco® MicroTM 1 
Guide Bars Available 12", 14", & 16" 





Side access chain tensioner 
Excellent power to weight ratio 
Anti-vibration system 
Lifetime ignition warranty 
QuickstopTM Inertia chain brake 
Two ring piston/long life cylinder 
Chain catcher 
Adjustable Automatic chain oiling 
Oil saving EmaticTM bar 
FS-USDA approved muffler 
Master ControlTM Lever 
Built in rope ring 
Translucent gas tank 
Meets California Emissions Standards 

Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price:
12" Bar: $639.95
14" Bar: $649.95
16" Bar: $659.95



Manufacturer:
Echo 

Model Number:
CS3450 
Our Price:
$257.93 

Dry Weight* (lbs.) 8
Engine Displacement (cc.) 33.4
Inertia type chain brake 
Automatic adjustable oiler 
Lightweight and powerful, this saw features big saw performance in a compact package 
16" bar and chain with tip guard features Oregon intenz side access chain tensioning bar technology


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2002)

Treeman82 brings up a topic I am passionate about, top handled saws. I don't like them. I don't like them on the ground, I don't like them in a tree, I don't like them in the air, I don't like them anywhere.
If you can pick up an Echo cs3450 and not immediately see and feel the advantages of a rear handled saw, then there is something very wrong with you.
That being said, The 335 and 020 have powerful motors compared to the Echo. If they came in a rear handled model, I'd buy 5 of them.


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## Newfie (Jun 24, 2002)

Hey Forrest,

I don't climb personally, but the anecdotal evidence from the guys that do is the Echo cs3450. The Husky 335 in it's current incarnation is alleged to leap from buckets and operators hands while in trees. The word around is that Husky is coming out with 3 new versions of the 335 to help fix the carb, start and idle issues that have plagued the model. The former 335 users switched to the Echo after the Husky launched itself to a premature demise, at least at the saw shop that I haunt. No info on the Stihl line.

The echo while not as strong is half the cost and with good maintenence will probably last you quite a while.

MikeMaas, do you like green eggs and ham?


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## monkeypuzzle (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't know what all the hype is about these top handle saws either Mike Maas.I hate 'em....give me a Husky136 or a Stihl46 and then lets go to the other job.


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 24, 2002)

*Dr. Suess(A.K.A. Mike Maas)*

Haha. Newfie I was thinking the same thing when I read that post by Mike. It was a good rhyme though. Thank you all for your help on these saws. Its good to know these things from real experienced arborists about these saws instead of having some Stihl, Husky, or Echo representative blowin smoke up my a$$ about how their saw is the best. I am definitely looking for a good saw in the $200 dollar range. I do like the rear handled saws better myself. My boss only has those types of saws and they work well with me. Echo is sounding like the best value for the dollar at this point but I will be sure and review the other makes and models completely before making an ultimate decision. If you have any more knowledge of these saws or any others dont hesitate to post your thoughts and opinions.

P.S. Newfie....You type with a very formal vernacular. Thats always appreciable from one English fanatic to another.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 24, 2002)

I run a Stihl 020T (older non EPA model) as my primary saw. I also have a Shindaiwa 357 as a backup. I know the 357 is heavier and bulkier, but I got this saw for a steal. However if I were to do this again I would opt for a Echo 3000. They are tough. I thought Stihl lowered the price of 020t's to around $450. Rich.


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## DDM (Jun 24, 2002)

I Bought a new ms200about 6 months ago for 469.00 Its a awesome saw. I prefer it to the echo it has of course more power.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 24, 2002)

If I were starting out now I would get a silky handsaw for the bulk of my work then a midsized chunking saw (026-036 range) for bigger work.

I rarely pull the little climbing saw out any more. It's an 020 with a 12in bar. I cut near everything with the Silky Zubat these days, up to around a 6 in cut I'd guess.

This way you can have a mid sized saw and then maybe a big bucking saw.


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 24, 2002)

*Echo Saws*

I went to Barnes and Noble tonight in search of some reading material on arboriculture and commercial landscaping but they didnt have ANYTHING of the nature. I was upset about that. I think I will just go to BN.com and find one online.

After that I went to Home Depot to price some saws. They only had commercial grade saws by Echo. They had Poulan and Homelite but the only saws they had in those brands were the 129.99 break it after the 9th use saws. They had the Echo CS300(199.99), CS3450(249.99), and the CS440(329.99). I've read that some use the CS3450 for use in the tree but why not the CS3000. Is it not powerful enough for climbing jobs. I liked the lightweight feel and having a short bar seems like it would make it easier to manuever while up there. Also, at a price like 199.99 it fits very well into my business budget. Treeman82, I believe this CS3000 may have been the saw by echo that you saw at your Home Depot because your description of that saw matches this one that I saw as well.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2002)

Except for the handle, the two saws are the same.


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## treeclimber165 (Jun 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *Except for the handle, the two saws are the same. *



I must object here. The 3450 is the same saw as the Echo 3400 except for the handle. The 3000 has a much smaller motor (and less power) in the same case. About like the difference between a car with a 4 cylinder vs. a V-6.


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## DDM (Jun 24, 2002)

Brian? would that be Carb or fuel injected?


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## Newfie (Jun 24, 2002)

Forrest,

Have you checked out Sherrill's for books? They are one of the site sponsors. Just click on the banner at the top of the page.

I'm just a history major who decided I liked dropping things on the ground. That's why my posts sound like I'm writing a term paper.


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 24, 2002)

*Brian*

Since the 3000 has that much less power does it make it a less appropriate saw to use in the trees than the 3450? If the 3450 is going to make climb cutting that much easier for me I will fork out the extra 50 bucks for it. Tell me your opinion if you would.


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## DDM (Jun 24, 2002)

Forrest, First of all The First book you need to buy would be Tree climbers companion Available for 15.00 From Sherrill.


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2002)

35cc is bare bones minimum in my book.


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 24, 2002)

*Books*

I'm going to look into that Tree Climbers Companion Book at Sherrill's. If anyone else knows of any helpful books let me know so I can purchase them. Thanks David.


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## Kevin (Jun 24, 2002)

Forrest, buy two of them.
One for the field and keep one at home.
It`s one of the better investments.


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## Stumper (Jun 25, 2002)

Forrest, Apparrently I'm the only guy on the site who likes the 019T. I didn't mention it before but it costs a couple of hundred less than the 020T/ms200. Still a bit more than the Echo 3000.
Lots of power is'nt needed all the time in a climbing saw but it proves very helpful when blocking down large limbs/leaders. A peppy small saw can let you get by without a midsized saw (I certainly prefer to have more saws however). I happen to like Echo products and would not hesitate to buy one.

P.S. The advantage of tophandled saws is not better handling on the ground in normal 2 handed use,rather, the tophandle design provides better balance for one hand use. I like the swept handle of the 019T because it allows one to use two hands in situations where it would otherwise be difficult. Top handle designs are also more compact which is often advantageous in the tree.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 25, 2002)

Half way with John, Sillky Zubat handsaw then a 335 then Jonny 2149 or Husky 351. I hope I don't need to use anything bigger in a tree 

Tom


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## Acer (Jun 25, 2002)

My vote for a top handled saw would be 020T (now MS200T). The Husky model, when I had a go with it, seemed useless, and only seemed happy on fine sunny days. Any dampness or drizzle in the air, and it just would not idle. It was also badly balanced, with the point of balance on the trigger. I think the top handled saw does have an advantage over similar rear handled models. You can get it in some places where a rear handled one would be too awkward, although I doubt if I'd buy another one. My 020T cost £450, and health & safety law says it can only be used in the tree (using both hands, of course!)

When I visited a friend in Montana recently, I was amazed that Husky top handled saws were available at Walmart or Target (I can't remember exactly the name of the place, but it was big). Here, there's a big issue about top handled saws getting into the hands of non professionals, so dealers have to see your qualifications before they sell them. Their days are numbered - it needs one or two more accidents involving homeowners, and they'll be banned, so we'll have no choice but to use rear handled saws anyway.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 25, 2002)

The top handled saw is more dangerous to use. The operator looses leverage to fight kickback because his hands are close together. It also becomes fatiguing to run because of this close hand position.
When you guys, the few who like them, talk about top handled saws being balenced, what the heck are you talking about, are you juggling them? Do you mean balenced when you are in the store holding the saw or when you are cutting with it? think about that. I want the saw balenced when I'm cutting, that typically means nose heavy. 
Another question, what kind of positions are you getting your self into where <I> only</I> a top handled saw could cut?
I could see using a carving bar to get into tight places but how does the handle significantly change where you can cut? I don't find cutting in a tree all that different from cutting on the ground, other than in the tree you need to get he saw up to yourself in the tree and carry it around on your belt. I do understand wanting a light and powerful saw, I just don't understand wanting a saw with both handles so close together your wrists are are crooked or the bar sticks straight up in the air when you cut. 
Don't forget about the loss of reach with a top handle saw, a little extra reach saves a lot of repositioning, and that is important to me in the tree.


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## seanlarkin (Jun 25, 2002)

Not to be saleman-ish, but we still have a bunch of ECHO tools that we're trying to get rid of. From saws, to trimmers, to blowers, those sorts of things. We dropped the ECHO line, because it didn't fit with our Vermeer plans. The end result of that is some products left over, but not catalogged, sooooo we've cut the prices in hopes of freeing up warehouse space. Please view this link if you're interested:
http://store.wtsherrill.com/pgi-CustomListProducts5?4,ECHO Power Tools On Sale,2,158,=,echo,&,20,>,0

I'm sorry about the lack of pictures. If there's a specific product you'd like to see a picture of, and it's not in our 2001 catalog, please email me and I'll send it to you. Thanks.
-Sean


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 25, 2002)

*climbing saws*

John Paul Sanborn, don't you find cutting a 6" branch by hand tiring. Climbing is hard enough. To each his own but I would think a chainsaw would be better! Rich.


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## kf_tree (Jun 25, 2002)

mike
the reson i prefer a top handled saw is for all the wrong reasons. i do alot of one handed cutting. yes i may get yelled at for saying it. but in the real world you can't always keep 2 hands on a saw. i mostly climb with a top handled saw. if its a big removal i may take a 357 with a 16 in bar. i've even used a 3120 in a tree. 
but for tight removals or pruning where the tree is over a spider web of phone and cable wires i cut and throw alot of branch's. if your taking out a branch that is too small,unworthy of a rope what do you do? i just hold the branch with one hand and cut with the other. 
as far as reach the reach. the reach would be the same if two hands are on the saw. i'd be more worried about kick back using a rear handled saw one handed.


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 25, 2002)

*The Book*

A copy of "Tree Climber's Companion" is on its way to my house. Thanks David!


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## Acer (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *Another question, what kind of positions are you getting your self into where <I> only</I> a top handled saw could cut?
> I could see using a carving bar to get into tight places but how does the handle significantly change where you can cut? *



When all I had was an 026, I came across situations where the rear handle of the saw prevented me making as accurate a cut as I wanted. It sometimes gets obstructed by other branches. It's especially true when you're working on trees that have been topped some while ago, where many branches originate from the area around the topping cut.


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## DDM (Jun 25, 2002)

Hmmmm if i keep both hands on the Saw how do i keep the piece I'M cutting from falling thru the roof?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 26, 2002)

Dave - snap-cut, break and toss. For me one handing my 020 is the exception.

Rich, these saws are so fast that the occational big cut is worth not dragging 10# around in the tree. In thinning I follow the tenent "keep the wounds small". 6 in is a big cut for me, so it is rare that I make them.

I'm not saying that I'd give up my 020, just that "If I knew then..." I would not have bought a climbing saw, put th $425 to somethign else.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 26, 2002)

I like to work the top of the crown with my hand saw, then when I get to the lower part where the bigger cuts are I pull up my chain saw. Sometimes I hang a strap in the center of the tree and clip the chain saw there while I go out on a limb or two.

On saw handle configuration:

Rear handled topping saws do have a better(longer) reach. If you have to ask how, you have not tried one. Near as I can figure, it's to do with the distance between your shoulders. See, if you turn sideways and reach out with one hand, hold that position and then reach your other hand out, it will go out about 12" less. The aproximate distance between the front and rear handle of a rear handled saw, but notice, your still fully extended with the first hand. reach out with both hands together, and you lose about 12". 

If used with one hand, the kick back is less with a rear handled saw. If you hold a saw at it's balancing point, like with a top handled saw, it will tip back with the full force of the kick back. On a rear handled saw, you have leverage, the weight of the saw, and the mass of the saw resisting the kick back. The old standards said you could only cut one handed if it were deemed safer, now you need use both hands for all cuts.

If you disagree, then why don't big ground saws have top handles?

An 026 is not a topping saw and I can see how this saw could be cumbersome for trimming in a tree. I'm talking about topping saws.

It's my opinion that the guys who don't like rear handle configuration, or at least can't see the advantages, have just never given one a good try and probably won't. That seems to be the nature of a large number of tree guys I've talked to. They see better ways of doing things but just won't change, they won't even try them out.
I know one guy, been climbing 20 years, still on a 3 wrap tautline hitch, tied on the end of his line(no split tail). What the heck?


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## kf_tree (Jun 26, 2002)

hey
i still use a tautline and have no interest in a split tail. but a rope coated cable lanyard with a cam is the best thing since sliced bread.


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## Greg (Jun 26, 2002)

My new favorite saw is my Husky 335XPT California. I replaced my dieing Stihl 019T with this saw abt 2 weeks ago, and there is a day and night difference between the two. I've only run about 3 tanks of gas so far, and the saw still takes several pulls to start, that bugs me!!!! All of my Stihl saws when warm start with one yank --this thing better get better. I love the 45cc power, but so far I think this Intenz bar sucks, and the gas sure burns quick but I'll take the trade off to keep the power and light weight. 
I have been giving my Silky Zubat a work out however, and I really like that saw, it cuts way better than a brand new Carona same size. 
I prefer to use a hand saw over a power saw, but if I'm cutting stuff 4inches plus give me some gas. 

Get a split tail, and try a blakes 

Greg


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## Kevin (Jun 26, 2002)

*I`ll never give up my top handled saw*


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## Nickrosis (Jun 27, 2002)

I visited the Echo website (www.echo-tools.com) and got a laugh out of the tag line for one of their saws:

TOP HANDLE SAWS 
CS3000 

The 'Industry Standard' Top Handle Saw suitable for single hand operation - for superior tree trimming and working in tight spaces such as in building and construction. 

30.1cc, 1.04kW, Echo 2-stroke engine 
Dry weight (head only) 3.2kg 
Bar - 30cm 
Chain pitch - 3/8 low profile 
Bar gauge - 050 sprocket nose 

WHAT INDUSTRY STANDARD ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT??? It's not the Z133.2000 standard, that's for sure. Single hand operation? They advocate that? A lawsuit _waiting_ to happen. It should be interesting. When I hit "Submit" on this post, I will click back to their website and send them an e-mail about this. 

Wait, I'll add another thing to that e-mail. "Building and construction." Um. Right. Every builder should rush out and buy this saw because it's great for trimming trees after you've kiln-dried the trunk and made boards out of it.

Mike Maas has made some great points, if you don't see them - you need to re-evaluate your attitude. I'm not going to stop asking for an MS200T for my birthday, but I will take his comments to heart the next time I'm in a tree with a saw. You should, too.

Spike_it, I can't understand some of your comments and wonder if you're trying to impress people here with your bravery and prowess. In some of your other posts, you seem as if you're embellishing some incidents which casts doubt on things you may be completely honest about.

What I'm trying to say is that you need not impress anyone here because we're supportive and encouraging, deep down. You obviously have far more experience in large, difficult removals than I do, and I respect you for that. Please, consider the thought of "never stop learning" and see if that would help make your life easier and safer by learning new techniques. I mean all of this because I care about you and every other climber - I want you to be safe, efficient, and well-humored.

JPS, you've got a great point. With a little elbow grease, you can be quieter, safer, faster in some cases, and more precise. Handsaws are underused by many people, but I believe they would save people's lives with increased use.

Cut and throw should only be done with snap cuts or with handsaws. Even if I get called "Little Shigo" out on the job like I do, I will still tell people to wear hard hats, hearing and eye protection, chaps, etc. If someone got hurt or died and I could have done something about it............I would have a very hard time living after that. 

Nickrosis


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 27, 2002)

*Bravo Nick*

I really like the way that Nick shares his opinions and thoughts with grace and valor. He keeps his opinions firm but stays respectfully tasteful. I know this is off the thread's subject matter but I felt responsible to commend a well written response such as Nick's. This is how I feel constructive critism should be handled. Offer your opinion and tactfully offer your alternative advice.

My $0.02


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 27, 2002)

To Nickrosis, Thank You, I can't top your post. Rich.


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## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

Now Nick,
Isn`t that being hypocritical?
You don`t have a top handled saw, you apparently think Mike`s idea of a rear handled saw in the tree is better and yet you want a top handled saw for yourself or did I misread your post?

_The special-purpose saws from STIHL are specifically designed for jobs on or in trees, such as tree surgery or municipal park maintenance. *All models are characterized by their optimized centre of gravity and low weight*. They are made even easier to handle by the highly effective anti-vibration system._ 

This is why we buy them...
*All models are characterized by their optimized centre of gravity and low weight*

These saws are designed to be used in trees and are no more dangerous than any other chainsaw unless used for some unintended purpose or manner.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 27, 2002)

I don't fault Nick for still wanting a stihl. Quite frankly, there is, to date, no decent rear handled topping saw. The only one that comes close is Echo's 3450. It has the proper handle configuration, they just forgot to give it any power.

Now on to your quote:

"All models are characterized by their optimized centre of gravity and low weight"

Low weight. 
All toping saws have low weight by definition.

Optimized centre of gravity.
So they put the weight in the center of the saw... that's a good idea, right where all the weight is. 
The point of my previous post was that you don't want the gravity centered, that's a bad thing. To understand this, answer the question, Why don't ground saws have top handles?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 27, 2002)

Oh, and this comment is just plain wrong:

"These saws are designed to be used in trees and are no more dangerous than any other chainsaw "

The second part anyway.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 27, 2002)

I cant see the risk of a climbing saw being any greater if properly operated.

Like anything else in the tree this is a preferance thing, like saddles. Leg harness is far superior to bo'suns, because I like them.

My handsaw preferance is because I am lazy, I don't want to carry the saw around in the tree, and i can wear my Roc helmet without muffs. It has a 3 point chinstrap and my Peltor don't.

Goin to get one of those NZ modles that was field tested by Dunlap, Ulmus, Malus & Betula; Associates. (No Tom I'm not calling you dumb, just playaing around :angel 

What were we talkin about?


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## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

... and Mike just one other thing while I think of it and that is don`t be reaching with a chainsaw.
If you have to over extend yourself to make a cut you`re too far from it.


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## DDM (Jun 27, 2002)

Mike, My Ground saw MS200 Does have a top handle when I'm Not in a tree with it Or to tired to get a larger saw


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 27, 2002)

David,
When using a Q-tip, stop shoving it in when you feel resistance!

John Paul,
Some saws have a higher risk associated with them, that's a fact. Yes, proper use does help reduce that risk, but all saws are not equally safe to operate.
To illustrate the point consider a hot saw. Think about 25 HP spinning a full skip, square ground chain, with the rakers completely removed. Think about pegging the throttle to 18,000 RPM and bouncing the tip of the bar off a log. Scary, huh? 

Top handled saws do no give the operator the same leverage to resist kick back, that's a fact.


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## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

> Top handled saws do no give the operator the same leverage to resist kick back,



I`ll have to see the scientific data on that, you do have it?

Kickback occurs on the top tip of the bar not the bottom.


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## DDM (Jun 27, 2002)

Mike, :Eye: 
I noticed a few weeks ago when Running an old Mac Pro model my granfather gave me That that saw Kicked back every 5 to 6 cuts where Ive only had one of my new stihls kick back once that i can remember. I was cutting in the wood pile Cutting logs to length. I guess Im not sure what the difference in the newer saws is but there seems to be alot.


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## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

Sharp chains and high rpm reduce kickback.
Dull chains and low rpm increase kickback.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 27, 2002)

Actually Kevin, kick back occurs when the top half of the tip of the bar comes in contact with something. The top of the bar causes a pushing action, and the bottom, a pulling action. The lower half of the tip is used to attack when doing plunge cuts.
Kickback is a force which quickly pushes the bar of the saw up and back towards the opereator. To test my statements safely, go to home depot with a freind. One of you hold an Echo 3450(rear handled saw) while the other holds the tip of the bar with a gloved hand. Now, suddenly lift on the bar and see how much effort it takes for the one holding the saw. Then simply repeat the test with an Echo 3400(top handled saw).
I asked you to do the test with these specific saws because they are the same except for the handle. 
If you do this test, you will no longer need "scientific data".
I don't make this $hit up, I have owened both these saws, as well as Stihl 020t, 019t, Husky 335, and a lot of other topping saws, over the years.
As far as a dull saw kicking, I don't know, I never cut with one.
Low RPM doesn't sound right either, but I'll tell you how it tested tomorrow.


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## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

We agree on kickback.

What makes a top handle saw dangerous is people using them with one hand.


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## Nickrosis (Jun 27, 2002)

"you apparently think Mike`s idea of a rear handled saw in the tree is better"

I said Mike had great points, but I didn't say anything for or against handle positions. I don't own a chainsaw, but that's because I can always use the company-issued saws. For this fall, I hope to have my own, though. I'm still new at all this!

Regarding kickback, handles, and saw sizes. To me, a smaller saw has less kickback force than a large saw. Shove a Stihl 009 into a pile of logs, and you'll be able to fairly easily stop the kickback. As the saw gets bigger, you will have increasing difficulty. That's my completely unscientific view.

I thought I made an appropriate comment when I said something to Spike_it, but it turns out that it was completely distasteful and out of place. I'm sorry. In the future, I will strive to not make personal comments that may degrade someone's reputation on this site. Perhaps I haven't been following a new direction this board is taking, but I will get on the bandwagon. I'm sorry Spike_it, you're a good man.

Nicholas Crawford


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## Nickrosis (Jun 28, 2002)

*Echo Responds*

I received this e-mail today. Personally, I'm impressed with the response, but I wonder why it was included in the first place. I'll let you know when I hear from the HQ in Japan.

Dear Mr Crawford,

thankyou for your concern.

We are in the process of updating our website as the content is now out of date.

I wanted to say thankyou for pointing out about Top handled saws. We are removing today the wording - "such as in bulding and construction." This should never have been included.

Unfortunately we are the distributors for Echo in the UK and Ireland only where the laws regarding the use of top handled saws would seem to be slightly different.

We are allowed to sell to certificated licensed operators only who have to go on very stringent courses in the use of top handled saws.The courses last a few days and can only be done by Government trained people.

I hope this clarifies your concerns and I have taken the liberty of
forwarding your email to The Kioritz Corporation in Japan so they are able to answer your concerns on the ANSI commitee.

Best regards

Mark Osborne
Sales Director


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## Acer (Jun 28, 2002)

Just to keep the thread rolling, this report was written for the HSE in the UK showing safe(r) methods of using top handled saws. Interestingly enough, it does describe some situations where the authors feel that one handed use is acceptable, although I'd have though that everyone should aim to have two hands on the saw whenever you are making a cut. A lot of these techniques may be old hat to you all, as most of our "new" ideas seem to be imported from the states. Anyway, the link is

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm


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## Kevin (Jun 28, 2002)

Nick,
Many contractors use chainsaws in construction or more like destruction where a wall must be removed from inside a building, rotten floor joist can easily be cut out using a chainsaw or other alterations made.
I have a feeling that this is what they meant.


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## Drummer (Jun 28, 2002)

Having been in the construction biz for 20 years, I've seen (not done) new home construction using chainsaws to cut through plywood sheathing for window and door openings and also to resize large timbers.
RogeR


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 28, 2002)

There are special rescue saws with a 45degree down bar and carbide tipped chain for rescue that i think some builders have tried.

i think more power can give greater kickback, as well as a longer bar can. i think book says that you can get kickback from the top or bottom tip corners, top being more dangerous. This could happen in that portion of the bar touching something or getting pinched as the chain races around the curve. Left leg, forehead and left throat injuries i believe are most common for kickbacks. The throat injury is why the olde ones would carry that mirror to put the sanitary pad on, so the could see just where it was gushing from when they were alone, and cap it!! Hopefully not to kiss themselves good-bye! But, i always chain brake when starting, moving, pivoting etc. And i do start rear handled saws with the handle between my thighs or on the ground a la Stihl/ Eric Sorenson nwhen on the ground.

If you have both hands in proper position on the saw; it seems that the reach would be determined by the length of the most outstretched arm and handle placement, assuming same bar lenghts. It seems both of those (arm and handle position) would be about equal. 

i agree that a rear handled saw would give more leverage against kickback, as hands are farther apart. One hand becomes the pivot (top) and the farther back the other handle, the more leverage on your side to fight kickback on the opposite end of the pivot. Top Arm should be kept straight.

One handed operation though, i think the balanced, lighter saw; that was made for the job, whose back end keeps the front end up would be safer without a doubt. Though Stihl Phil says that all saws are designed for 2 handed use. This is not just for safety but ergonomics. The weight, vibration is meant to be carried by both hands in all that stuff, so i try to minimize such motions. My understanding from him is that it more than doubles the load on the single arm. i have come to equate it with making sure a biner gate can't open, it seems that with both hands locked on the saw, that my chest carries some of the abuse and not just my arms.

Stihl 020 here, gotta go from Corona to Silky. i think i can command more precise action with the wider speed band of these higher revving chain saws, and eliminating fiber in pre cutting. i can always make it cut slower, so i set myself up for as much speed as i can with the fast saw and eliminating wood, then go at the speed i see fit as i watch for head or backcut movement while cutting.

Oh, and my lil'butt is more likely to command a lil saw totally in these conditions .


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2002)

Spyder wrote:

"One handed operation though, i think the balanced, lighter saw; that was made for the job, whose back end keeps the front end up would be safer without a doubt. "

I agree that a light saw is nice for topping work and one handed operation, but how does a saw with the back end already lifting the front end(the bar) up, help reduce kickback?
That's what kickback is, lifting of the front end. You add saw balance that is lifting the front end, to kickback, and you increase the chance of injury.

All you nay sayers do me a favor, hold your saw out in front of you and have the bar level. Now tip the bar downward about 45 degrees, like you might do when making a cut. Please observe your wrists. How's that balance thing working now?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 29, 2002)

i was speaking to general safety and saw control with that; which of course could reflect on kick back. 

In one handed operation, kickback would be much worse (i think) becase of the distance from (bar) tip to trigger (hand) is greater, thus leverage against (you), from force input at tip becomes greater with a longer lever. It also seems to me, that the weight forward of that point where solid saw stops and hand grabs becomes part of the formulae of force thrown for you to control, more than the weight behind the hand. Though the rear weight does pull tip in same direction as kickback on pivot of hand. Now; i've never read that, just always seemed the way it was; and why they made top handle saws.

Not sure what you are getting at with 45degree dip; i tend not to cut that way. My most awkward cutting (in air) is knotching meeting faces correctly to a focal of 7:30-8:00 on the off side. If i need to hit 9:00-11:00 on the off side i try to stand shoulder above or rotate wrist to saw perpendicular to arm or in line and upside down?

i try to rest the saw on the wood and let it float through (controlled) as the wood supports the saw, pivoting on dogs; and am more likely to be cutting 45 degress up and over (folding limb away); than the reverse. Though, for folding away, i try to use a wide face focused at 7:00+, with holding wood nipped from the bottom side of hinge, so i can come down flatter at the finish. Then lift saw out of cut as the machine of the folding hinge takes over. Part of the reason i do that is because i am always visualizing the saws path if it kept continuing on its path; so 45 degrees towards seems messy in that light!


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## Nickrosis (Jun 29, 2002)

We seem to be forgetting about inertial chain brakes. Even if kickback were to occur, many times the chain is stopped. You can still have a horrible cut on whatever body part is struck, but it would be far worse if your finger was stuck in the housing and the chain were still spinning.

This is a great reason to wear a hardhat and have brim when using the chainsaw. Mark Chisholm wears one in his Stihl ads that would do an excellent job of stopping the bar if it came near his face.

Chainsaws are dangerous. <-- note the period - they are a bunch of sharp teeth rotating at high speed, close to your body.

Nickrosis


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 29, 2002)

The Kiwi helmets that Mark, myself and others wear are made of Kevlar. In the really bad situation of kickback, we might enjoy just a teenie bit more cut protection than a plastic helmet.

Why don't the top/rear kickback folks talk to the chain manufacturers at the ISA conference. Husky and Stihl are always there too. These companies have spent engineering dollars to produce a product that they feel fits our needs. If anyone thinks that the arborist industry doesn't drive the chainsaw industry, you need to talk with a sales rep. Arbos own, and cut with, more chainsaws that loggers. I'm basically a one-horse outfit and I still drive up to every job with eight saws in my truck. How many loggers carry that many saws to work? I'm not talking owning here, I'm talking using and needing on a regular basis.

I prefer a top handle pruning saw. 335 right now.

Tom


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## underwor (Jun 29, 2002)

As an instructor, I am supposed to do everything right in class. In real life, I have scars, from before I started teaching, that prove I haven't always done everything right. I have challenged each class so far to show me a branch, which is large enough to need a chainsaw used on it, 3-4"+ that I can not reach with both hands on the saw. So far they have not found one. Looking into my past, most one hand use was the result of being too tired to climb 6" higher, or in my younger days, showing off for the ladies, both of which are not good times to be using a chainsaw with one or two hands.

My two bits. 

Bob Underwood


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 29, 2002)

Wellll, is super modified realy proper use? rakers fileed off??

Kickback has so much force to it that the maginal differance between a forward ballanced saw and ceter balance is neglegable.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 29, 2002)

The weight would be somewhat marginal; unless it really got going i see; but i think the length from tip to trigger (where only hand would be to control in one hand use, thereby the pivot point) is a longer lever in rear handled design. Each lever has the same input(chain speed/power at tip of bar), longer lever = more output power (kicking against solo hand)?

Also i guess i am more comfortable with top handled design and kickback in 1 hand use, because in a top handled saw my arm is on top of the saw, helping better to resist such (kickback)action than if behind the kickback?


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## treeclimber165 (Jun 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *
> Also i guess i am more comfortable with top handled design and kickback in 1 hand use, because in a top handled saw my arm is on top of the saw, helping better to resist such (kickback)action than if behind the kickback? *



EXACTLY! Assuming someone were to only use one hand on a saw (which none of us would do  ), a top handle saw is easier to resist kickback. Using a rear handled saw with one hand, and kickback occurs, you have 10 lbs being propelled upward and backward toward you. With a top handled saw, you only have about 1/3-1/4 of the saw weight being propelled toward your head. For an example, imagine trying to stop a softball coming at you at 50 mph with one hand. Then imagine trying to stop a 10 lb bowling ball coming at you at 50 mph with one hand!
This is all theoretical, anyway, because NONE of us uses a saw with one hand!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2002)

Using your logic, it's easier to throw a bowling ball 50 mph than a softball?
Of course not. It takes a lot to get a heavy object moving.


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## treespec (Jun 29, 2002)

*climbing saws*

Forrest, Sorry we couldn't hookup last tues., I was at Leu Gardens for the whole day. I've used Echo's 3000 & 3400, but the saw I use the most, is my 020T stihl. Top handle saws are to me at least, easier to use. At $460, it's quality that's well worth it.


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## SpikedSupra (Jun 29, 2002)

*Wow*

You guys sure have run a serious tangent off of the original question. I had no idea I would stir such a debate. i am enjoying everyone's opinion on this though because it helps me learn more. I am still unsure which saw to use in the tree(rear handled or top handled) because great arguments have been made for both types.


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## Newfie (Jun 29, 2002)

Hey Forrest,

Threads get shanghai-ed all the time, but like you've noticed it can lead to some good debate and really good learning, even if there is never any real agreement on the new direction.

As for your original question, check out the area dealers, find out who the reputable ones are. I learned through experience that brand and cost can be secondary considerations to finding yourself a good servicing dealer. When in business you will want someone competent to fix your equipment quickly, cuz time is $$$.

Sorry for going back on topic guys.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 28, 2003)

Ha! Now I understand Mikes affection for his rear-handled saws.


Top-handled saws are the best thing to come out since the advent of the 'Pony' type handsaws.

They may take getting used to because are so well-balanced. Cutting with the distal end of bar requires new groups of muscles be developed. This is because the older Poulans, 019's were tip-heavy; TH saws are not.

Not use it one-handed? Har! I could shave somebody with my 200!


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## NeTree (Dec 28, 2003)

Hmmm..

My CS-3400.

Cheaper than dirt,
Plenty of power to get the job done,


and I can't kill the $*&@^$& thing!!!

Straight gas.... saw runs til it seizes, but starts right back up after it cools off. Did this for a week straight. ???? thing would not die.

Tried giving it the "drop test" from the bucket... 17 falls, still started right up. I wore out before it did.

And last but not least, tied it to a rope on the back of the skidder and dragged it around the yard for a few days. STILL ran.

So alas, although not really my *favorite* saw (I'd rather an 020), it seems I'm stuck with this one until the day comes it decides to give up... and from the looks of things, that won't be anytime soon.


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## treehugger01 (Dec 28, 2003)

HEH! Ive found them echos run great but the first problem to have with um is the carbs. I tried replacing re working and generally fumbling with the carbs to no avail. After about a year of cutting with the echo its shot out. Time to spend another hundred hehe. Nice product them echo's. I run a husky 136 in the tree now. Ill drop it soon and step up toa 141 husky. Thats top of the line climbing all day with saw. About as beefy as you want being in the air with you for 8 straight hours.
Cheers!


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## NeTree (Dec 28, 2003)

Spiked,

I use BOTH rear and top-handled. Depends on the application.

For most things, the top-handled since it's easier to handle and lighter. 

But when the wood starts to get big on a block-down, for example, it's time to switch to progressively bigger saws.

Typically, I'll start out with the 3400, then go to the 55, and if necessary, the 394 til I get to the ground.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Not use it one-handed? Har! I could shave somebody with my 200!  *




Cool!!!


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## treehugger01 (Dec 28, 2003)

I can finish a tree spikless with a one handed saw in 1/2 the time it takes with a two handed saw. you can just about walk thru a tree with that extra hand to grab on with,. 
On removals Its normaly monster and normally roping, I can do a removal job twice as fast with a 2 handed saw than with them itty bitty ones. And my elbow dont hurt as much.


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