# Powerlines and gas lines...What do you do when stumps get painted?



## Hoosier (Aug 15, 2009)

The paint marks went right over the top of the things...what would you do? How deep would you feel comfortable going?


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## VA-Sawyer (Aug 15, 2009)

I believe I would hand dig CAREFULLY on each side of rootball to see how deep the gas and electric lines run. Gas might be as shallow as 12", electric should be at least 2' deep. I'm guessing from small size of stumps that the houses were built first and trees added soon after. Power and gas lines were probably ran either just before or concurrent with home construction. I don't think I would go more than 6" deep with stumper ( if that ) unless I knew the lines were a lot deeper.
Rick


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## forestryworks (Aug 15, 2009)

call up the respective companies. they should know.


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## ASD (Aug 15, 2009)

In CA. you are required to hand dig and locate any marked lines in your work area. Their paint is only Close to where the lines are!!!! If you hit any thing within 2' of either side of their marks it's your bill.


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## Hoosier (Aug 16, 2009)

I think the question is what would you do knowing that you have hazards directly under the stump. Obviously hand digging to locate depth is the only option, but what I am asking is how many would walk away from a job that has the stump painted on top as being directly over the hazard? Is it worth the few hundred to you to take the risk?


(Catfish & forestryworks, holy moley already marked up the utilities, thats all the info we are going to get, but depth is never a guarantee)


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## gr8scott72 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hoosier said:


> I think the question is what would you do knowing that you have hazards directly under the stump. Obviously hand digging to locate depth is the only option, but what I am asking is how many would walk away from a job that has the stump painted on top as being directly over the hazard? Is it worth the few hundred to you to take the risk?
> 
> 
> (Catfish & forestryworks, holy moley already marked up the utilities, thats all the info we are going to get, but depth is never a guarantee)



Walk.


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## Oly's Stump (Aug 16, 2009)

I have been in this business 23 years and I have never yet hit a gas line. I have hit private electric lines between the house and garage or other buildings. I also have hit private water lines, cable TV and phone lines. The private lines are not markable and the home owner never knew where the lines were either. Nothing you can do about them (owner responsible for damage). The phone and cable lines I hit were no more than 2 inches below ground. The phone and cable company took care of the repairs. Here in Wisconsin you are not suppose to grind within 18 inches of the marked lines. If I get a stump marked as in the photo, I make it real clear to the home owner that they would be responsible for the damages if I should hit the line. Most agree and I grind only 4 inches deep. Only had one customer not agree so I didn't take the job.


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## Hoosier (Aug 16, 2009)

I ended up using a small flat pick to dig down as far as I knew I would be grinding, on both sides of the job. The trees in this case were shallow since they owner piled up dirt around them and that kept them shallow. The first stump was only about 10" across, so it went down less than that. The second one was larger so I just stopped shallow and told the home owner that he should never plant in that spot because in the future someone could get hurt.

I have read that in some cases tree roots can lift up lines as they grow, I doubt these were old enough to do that but one must keep that in mind on larger stumps.

Here is the finished product, the owner wanted me to remove the volcano dirt that was inside the retaining wall blocks that he removed (tree ring) so that added to his cost since the tree ring was full of fibrous roots ant made it imposible to just shovel up.


What would you have charged for this kind of job in your area? Access was really easy (obviously) and the job did involve cleaning up and making the ground restored and seed-able.


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 16, 2009)

Hoosier said:


> I ended up using a small flat pick to dig down as far as I knew I would be grinding, on both sides of the job. The trees in this case were shallow since they owner piled up dirt around them and that kept them shallow. The first stump was only about 10" across, so it went down less than that. The second one was larger so I just stopped shallow and told the home owner that he should never plant in that spot because in the future someone could get hurt.
> 
> I have read that in some cases tree roots can lift up lines as they grow, I doubt these were old enough to do that but one must keep that in mind on larger stumps.
> 
> ...



In my area, that would be municipal property, with the muni paying for the stumping. Therefore, the muni would be responsible for telling me how deep the lines were.


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## Curbside (Aug 17, 2009)

When we do multiple stumps for the city in known areas with marked utilities we hydro vac around the stumps first for visual locates and then grind.


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## Hoosier (Aug 17, 2009)

FWIW this area was not in the city, it was a neighborhood outside of any city limits, so it was still private property out to the street. The locates are nice but the service is provided by an independent locate company that has no clue on depth etc..


I would love to have the option to get the city tell me the depth and assume some of the liability, but no chance of that happening.


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## stumper63 (Aug 17, 2009)

Wish I could "walk" on these too, but probably 40% of my jobs have utilities within 2' or directly underneath. Wish US worked like Canada apparently does and called street trees "municipal" and they assumed liability. No chance here. Utility companies mark the lines and will not give you any depth indication, too much liability for them.

So I go out from the stump to avoid roots, dig perpendicular to painted line with a trenching shovel 1' either side and 8-10" deeper than I'm going to grind to be safe. Pain in the neck, but I try to figure in some time on the quote for utility checking.

Stumper63


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## Curbside (Aug 18, 2009)

Oh no in Canada if you hit the lines you are still liable here. The utilites will come and mark the lines for free at least in our province but you still need to visulize the utilities before excavation. They will not give you a depth so I do the same as you. I dig to the depth of the grind and little more to insure no contact or we will bring in the hydro vacs to locate first and then go for deep grind.


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## arbor pro (Aug 19, 2009)

Hoosier said:


> The paint marks went right over the top of the things...what would you do? How deep would you feel comfortable going?



I ALWAYS put the burden of decision upon the property owner in the case of utilities. If a locate is within the grind zone, I will inform the HO that the liability for hitting a utility is now HIS as they are HIS stumps located over the utilities. I then ask him how deep he wants me to grind. If the HO does not want to assume responsibility (in writing), I walk. If he says "grind to 'x' depth", I put it in writing that he was informed of the utility and assumes responsibility for hitting it.

That said, I have only once ever hit a utility under the aforementioned scenario. I do not dig to check depth of utilities as I have been informed by our local utilities that, if I should happen to knick a line while trying to locate its depth, I will be liable for fixing or replacing the line. Well, it doesn't take much from a shovel to knick a telephone or tv cable so I never dig to figure out depth.

As an added note, my local utilities have pretty much told me that, if their utilities are within 12" of the surface, they are too shallow and should be dug deeper anyways. While I hope I never hit another one, I feel pretty confident that, so long as I've gotten the proper locates done, the utilities will do the repairs for free if I hit another shallow one. 

Of the one that I hit, it was a light pole elecrical service which was just under the surface of the ground. Apparently, when some concrete guys replace the sidewalk in the area, they exposed the cable and then reburied it too shallow. Utility company was very cordial about the ordeal and never charged me a dime. If I lived in an area where the utilities were tough nuts to work with, I would NEVER grind a stump over a utility without having an agreement from the utility in hand before starting the job as to how the repair will be made should the utility be hit. 

WHY ASSUME THE RISK OF A $500 UTILITY REPAIR JUST TO MAKE $75 BUCKS ON GRINDING A STUMP? MAKE THE HO OR UTILITY TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY. IT'S NOT YOUR STUMP!


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## Hoosier (Aug 19, 2009)

arbor pro said:


> WHY ASSUME THE RISK OF A $500 UTILITY REPAIR JUST TO MAKE $75 BUCKS ON GRINDING A STUMP? MAKE THE HO OR UTILITY TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY. IT'S NOT YOUR STUMP!



I really dont think it is that easy, you cant have a home owner sign away his rights or liability, if you cut them, you did it, the utility that has lost income will bill you or your insurance for the repair and for lost income, no matter what you have signed.


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## arbor pro (Aug 20, 2009)

Hoosier said:


> I really dont think it is that easy, you cant have a home owner sign away his rights or liability, if you cut them, you did it, the utility that has lost income will bill you or your insurance for the repair and for lost income, no matter what you have signed.



Perhaps it's not that easey but, at least it's better than just grinding away without first discussing it with the HO or utility. In 9 out of 10 cases, (at least where I live), I would bet that, if I did hit a utility and the HO had agreed in writing to be responsible, the HO would step up and take the responsibility. Now, maybe in other areas, that's not the case - unfortunate if so. Good people around here. If they say they'll take the responsibility, they take it. That goes for most of the utilities as well. MOST of them are decent to work with (the locally-based ones that is). The big, national utilities with customer care centers located on the other side of the planet, seem less concerned about who they screw over - HO or grinder operator - it doesn't matter. 

So, I guess that brings up another viewpoint in the matter - it depends on who the utility belongs to whether I'll take the risk of cutting it...


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## Oly's Stump (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree with Arbor Pro !


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## Hoosier (Aug 20, 2009)

Unmarked private lines that belong to the client are one thing, if they are not marked, or if the client does not notify you then you may have a leg to stand on...if you cut a line going from the house to the barn it's on him. 

But, if you cut a public utility line that is within two feet of the marker paint, it's your but on the line. And god help you if you hit a fiber line, they will bill you by the minute for lost revenue, you can tell them the home owner signed a waiver all you want but it will not help, if you think otherwise I seriously recommend that you talk to your insurance agent..


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## gr8scott72 (Aug 21, 2009)

Hoosier said:


> Unmarked private lines that belong to the client are one thing, if they are not marked, or if the client does not notify you then you may have a leg to stand on...if you cut a line going from the house to the barn it's on him.
> 
> But, if you cut a public utility line that is within two feet of the marker paint, it's your but on the line. And god help you if you hit a fiber line, they will bill you by the minute for lost revenue, you can tell them the home owner signed a waiver all you want but it will not help, if you think otherwise I seriously recommend that you talk to your insurance agent..



If this is indeed true, then it is surely not worth grinding stumps for $75 to have that kind of liability attached to the job.


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## Hoosier (Aug 21, 2009)

gr8scott72 said:


> If this is indeed true, then it is surely not worth grinding stumps for $75 to have that kind of liability attached to the job.



AFAIK I dont think you can pass liability to someone else unless they are a direct employer, if you work for a landscaping company and the boss says dig here etc.. as a contractor you hold all of the risk.

FWIW
In Indiana If a property is marked up, and you hit a line that is not marked but is still a public utility, then you should not be held responsible, they missed it and it falls on the mark up company or utility responsible (provided that you notified them).

If a line is marked, you are liable for anything within two feet of that marking/flag. You MUST hand dig if you are going to grind within that zone. Now I understand that if you are going to blast an 8" bradford stump that you will most likely not even be a foot deep when the stump is totally gone, so your mileage may vary.

So, is it worth $75 to grind a stump with paint on it or within two feet? That was the original questions intent. I dont think so. For me I charge a premium if paint is within two feet of the stump because I am going to have to spend time digging a few holes proportional to the stump diameter and the depth the job will require (obliterate or just grind down 8")

Part of the reason I am hammering the issue is that so many times I see guys doing work for 1/2 what you guys or I appear to bid and they never even bother marking up, you know they haven't got insurance to dig or grind anything, yet they still do it. Sure these lines "Should" be deeper than we typically grind..."should".

I honestly hope that some of these amateurs get a clue and stop thinking they are making money and go legit, because they could get killed or at the very least go broke when they get hit with a huge repair bill.


Always call before you dig! In Indiana and Ky the number is 811. :spam:


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## arbor pro (Aug 21, 2009)

Hoosier said:


> ...And god help you if you hit a fiber line, they will bill you by the minute for lost revenue, you can tell them the home owner signed a waiver all you want but it will not help, if you think otherwise I seriously recommend that you talk to your insurance agent..



Around here, you're not going to hit fiber when you're only grinding 10" deep. If there is fiber in the area, it's going to be marked so even a blind man can see it.

The best solution is always to pass the liability onto the HO or utility. When in doubt, simply don't grind. Let the HO and utility fight it out. It's simply not worth a big repair bill and, as the contractor, you have to obligation to grind the stump if you're not comfortable with the situation.


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## Hoosier (Aug 21, 2009)

arbor pro said:


> Around here, you're not going to hit fiber when you're only grinding 10" deep. If there is fiber in the area, it's going to be marked so even a blind man can see it.



EVERYTHING should be marked so a blind man can see it?

You miss the point, sure one should not be able to hit it at 10" deep,hell, we really shouldn't hit anything at 10" deep. 
But, from what some guys have mentioned in this thread I wanted to hammer on the fact that you cannot pass the buck if you do hit a line, period.

How deep does a big stump machine go anyway?It's not like the backhoe and sewer line projects...
If everything is installed correctly we should not have a worry, but lines can get shallow if they were trenched in on a Friday at 4:55 by the guy who had the " we are near the house anyway, who's gonna dig here?" mentality. 

You still need to dig to check depth or walk away if you are within 2 feet of the paint...period.

Do what you want, I just dont want to see the story in the back of the trade mags called "Stump grinder hits buried utility".


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## Curbside (Aug 22, 2009)

Many lines are no longer trenched in but rather directional bored or hydro pushed. These lines can get pretty wonky depending on obsticals like rocks and roots and operator experince. I've seen gas lines as little as 6" below grade yet 10 feet away they are back to 36" below grade. Always be careful around the lines and here in our province its the company doing the digging thats liable no matter what kind of permission you have or whether your working for a city or municpality. You have to bid those crazy ones accordingly. Tomorrow we're starting another round of stumps for the city. Saturday the hydro vac fellas start and on Sunday we followup grinding out the stumps in the city tree wells that have been hydro vaced.


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## Hoosier (Aug 23, 2009)

Curbside said:


> Saturday the hydro vac fellas start and on Sunday we followup grinding out the stumps in the city tree wells that have been hydro vaced.



Can you post a short vid of that, it sounds interesting.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 24, 2009)

I don't dig #### if it has to be hand dug they either hire a laborer before I show up or pay 100 per hour for me to take my sweet azz tine digging it. Having said that a job like those small stumps is 125.00 or my minimum. Take me an hour including pitch forking shavings into truck.


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## Curbside (Aug 25, 2009)

Hydro Vac broke down so they only got 3 stumps done. Canceled us till next weekend. I'll see if I can take some pictures but really all it is the mud and dirt is all gone as they use a pressure washer and a big vacuum to suck up the water and dirt. The stump and roots are just sitting their waiting to get ground up with all of the utilities down around the outside of the hole or sometimes running under the stump. Everything is visible in the hole.


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## curterj145xr (Nov 30, 2009)

Is there any value to using a metal detector to determine the location of certain lines? I think that even with PVC gas line, they are supposed to pair it with a metal wire so that it is locateable.


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## Oly's Stump (Dec 1, 2009)

I posted here earlier that I never hit a gas line in 23 years in business. Cannot say that now. Last week I hit a private gas line between the house and pole barn. The owner told me that he thought the line was 20 feet away from the stump. He was wrong!


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## ckliff (Dec 1, 2009)

For the little $$$ involved I say skip it. Let someone else take the risks, sweat the hand digging, or leave the stump & put a potted plant on it.


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