# How to pull over trees?



## NebClimber (Sep 2, 2004)

I'm faced with a number of removals that could be done quickly if I could just pull the tree over and let it flop on the ground. Problem is, many have leaders, stems, etc, that lean hard (up to 45%) toward structures. For example, one Elm forks into two big leaders about 20' from the ground. One side goes north, the other south. I will cut the north leader off, but the south leader will have to be rigged unless I could just pull the south leader over to the north, trunk and all.

I'm afraid to pull a tree over that is this back heavy toward a structure, even though the trunk itself is straight.

Any thoughts?

Steven


----------



## Stumper (Sep 2, 2004)

NEB, A pic would help. If you have room to flop the south leader and the trunk tthen taking off the North leader is a mistake unless it is too tall to fit the drop zone. (Typically co -dominant leaders are very nearly equal in height) DON"T CUT THE COUNTERWEIGHT off the trunk and then fight a heavy leaner-fell a balanced tree! Sometimes the easiest and safest way to remove a tree is entire.:angel:


----------



## NeTree (Sep 2, 2004)

Ditto to Stumper.

Pulling over can save boatloads of time. Get the pull rope as high as possible/practical to reduce the overall load. Make your notch, then alternately reduce your hinge while pulling the tree towards center (balance point).

If the tree has no or an insignifigant side-lean, try to pull directly in line with where you want it to fall (your gun).

You'd be amazed what you can pull over with a strong rope and a strong winch.

Let me know if you need more details as far as equipment goes.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Sep 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *You'd be amazed what you can pull over with a strong rope and a strong winch. *



Upgrade that to a tractor and a cable, and you might be home before lunch!


----------



## NeTree (Sep 2, 2004)

But not everybody can fit a tractor in the sidebox, Butch.


----------



## OutOnaLimb (Sep 2, 2004)

Just get a line as high as you can on the central leader. Tie off using a running bowline just above where your gonna make your face cut. If you have a good anchor point on the pulling side use that to attach a sling and a prusic minding pulley with a piece of 9mm kernmantle and a french prusic. Tie in another pulley about half way up the rope towards the tree, This will give you double mechanical advantage and the french prusic will pull, but not give while your groundie is pulling the tree over. Its pretty text book actually. I dont like usin tractors chains and cables, thats the chit hacks do. 

Kenn


----------



## NebClimber (Sep 2, 2004)

On one particular job I am removing 14 large, dead/declining Elm. We will be using a payloader and cable.

I fear that if I pull these trees over and leave a large limb on the fall side that the tree will turn or rotate unpredictably when it hits the ground. 

From the replies here it sounds like the tree should be felled intact whenever possible.

Thanks


----------



## NeTree (Sep 2, 2004)

Well, what would be the point in climbing out only part of it?


----------



## murphy4trees (Sep 2, 2004)

Watch out for that trunk splitting, especially if it has any sign of included bark running down the trunk... Tie off the back lead or p[ossibly run the pull line through both leads and then tie off below on the trunk...

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THERE IS NO BYPASS ON THE FACE CUTS.... A clean notch is an absolute must... any bypass will cause the hinge to sieze and brake.... causing disaster...

I'd be carefull using a friction hitch on the pull line.... it might start to slide before you get enough force to move the tree... You'd be better off using a doubled bowline as a mid line knot and use the prussic on the biner of the 3:1 Z rig....

Maybe then put a rope puller on the last leg of the 3:1, giving 3000-4500 Lbs of pull..

And just to make sure you got her, set a second back up pull line....

You might consider a center plunge through the hinge to reduce fiber in the hinge, but don't even try it if you aren't 100% confident in your falling abilities.... that means you know how to make a clean notch and back cut.

And finally you gotta know how much back cut to make before you start cranking hard....


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)

That's easy... when the saw is just starting to pinch.

LOL


(I disagree with a center-bore; make the hinge thinner instead.)


----------



## OutOnaLimb (Sep 3, 2004)

Actually, I have a cool knot to use in a Z-rig instead of a bowline on a bite, I call it an Alabama booger not. it isnt nearly as hard to untie as a bowline on a bite or a butterfly.However the prussic is the way to go on back leaners. In my humble opinion.

Kenn


----------



## xtremetrees (Sep 3, 2004)

I find Murphy that a little 2 inch strip of holding wood on your back cut is substaintial amount of holding wood for even the largest trees.

If you have a 4X4 and want to lay the tree down and you got enuff pull you can just back cut it with no notch. Be warned alot of splitting will occur. This is a good technique for saving say concret driveways and the trees arent to tall. Just stand to the side of the splitting wood.Cut-pull, stand back cut pull. you dont want bounce in your pull a strong bull rope reduce this.Cut until it starts peeling cut a bit more then just stand back.

I'd say if your pulling a tree and cutting into the back with no notch that youll have to cut 3/4 way thru for it start cracking.


----------



## rumination (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *I find Murphy that a little 2 inch strip of holding wood on your back cut is substaintial amount of holding wood for even the largest trees.
> 
> If you have a 4X4 and want to lay the tree down and you got enuff pull you can just back cut it with no notch. Be warned alot of splitting will occur. This is a good technique for saving say concret driveways and the trees arent to tall. Just stand to the side of the splitting wood.Cut-pull, stand back cut pull. you dont want bounce in your pull a strong bull rope reduce this.Cut until it starts peeling cut a bit more then just stand back.
> ...




You're kidding, right?


----------



## xtremetrees (Sep 3, 2004)

NO sir Mr Leon I am not

Have you ever tried this very idiotic technique?


----------



## rumination (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *NO sir Mr Leon I am not
> 
> Have you ever tried this very idiotic technique? *




No, I must admit that I have not. Seems like you might be asking for a barber chair. Not necessarily the safest way to go about it, I'd think.


----------



## xtremetrees (Sep 3, 2004)

I've seen it done some, I dont do it alot. Climbing in the air witha a chainsaw is unsafe maybe you should stay on the ground leon.


----------



## rumination (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> * Climbing in the air witha a chainsaw is unsafe maybe you should stay on the ground leon. *





Thanks for the constructive criticism, I'll keep that in mind.


----------



## Nathan Wreyford (Sep 3, 2004)

Use a tapered hinge


----------



## xtremetrees (Sep 3, 2004)

ill keep yours in mind to bro


----------



## xtremetrees (Sep 3, 2004)

Murphy is most advanced with the plung cut. I guess it works for him. I may one day get to see its application maybe soon even. Like I like to say I'm good enuff to do it your way. I like the taperd notch and find I use it more frequently. The upside down notch i use it exclsively in the air. Alot less spar m9ovement. I really want to learn the plung cut. Murphy can I work this storm with yall. I'll probably never pick up wedges thou.


----------



## a_lopa (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *That's easy... when the saw is just starting to pinch.
> 
> LOL
> ...



exactly,you dont need to bore with a high set rope,just chase the holding wood .boring isnt going to help the saftey factor at all


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *I find Murphy that a little 2 inch strip of holding wood on your back cut is substaintial amount of holding wood for even the largest trees.
> 
> If you have a 4X4 and want to lay the tree down and you got enuff pull you can just back cut it with no notch. Be warned alot of splitting will occur. This is a good technique for saving say concret driveways and the trees arent to tall. Just stand to the side of the splitting wood.Cut-pull, stand back cut pull. you dont want bounce in your pull a strong bull rope reduce this.Cut until it starts peeling cut a bit more then just stand back.
> ...




And where's your directional control?


----------



## NebClimber (Sep 3, 2004)

I plan to use a wire cable with 22,000 # tensile strength. Is there any reason to ever need something stronger than this when it comes to tree pulling?


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NebClimber _
> *I plan to use a wire cable with 22,000 # tensile strength. Is there any reason to ever need something stronger than this when it comes to tree pulling? *



Heck, that's more than I ever use. I prefer rope because you can pre-load it and it will absorb some shock, like between clicks of the come-along or pull of 4x4/tractor, etc.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)

Not to mention it's easier to use...


----------



## Newfie (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *But not everybody can fit a tractor in the sidebox, Butch. *





Ain't that the truth.


----------



## Stumper (Sep 3, 2004)

I'll agree with the 2 inch hinge thickness part of Xtreme's advice but pass on the other 'techniques'he espoused. 
With due respect to Dan'l. Center boring a hinge is a log-butt integrity preservation technique--period. It offers no safety benefits in the actual felling of the tree. ( It is disadvantageous in fact.)


----------



## ORclimber (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> * I prefer rope because you can pre-load it and it will absorb *



Arborplex is great for that. Love to see the preloaded stretch pull the trees over.


----------



## glens (Sep 3, 2004)

The only time I ever do any falling is when I've been drinking, but I don't have a problem with that.&nbsp; Sometimes the trees I'm working do some falling because I've felled them.&nbsp; I don't know how I could possibly fall a tree unless I was a tree before I fell.

Steven,

To the advice to "tension, cut; tension, cut; <font face="fixed">...</font>" add "drive felling wedge" so that you end up with "tension, cut, drive wedge; cut; cut; drive wedge; tension (if necessary -- more likely "take up slack"); <font face="fixed">...</font>"

You want the wedge(s) in the back cut in case the tag line fails and/or to avoid the tag line causing the tree to fail (and you may find you don't even really use the line).

I would especially caution against pulling the line too hard, too early, too.&nbsp; It should only be a guiding/holding/assisting force, not the primary motive one.&nbsp; It would truly suck to induce a barber chair with too much pull and too much hinge.&nbsp; If you can't lift the tree with the wedge(s), assist it(them) with the rope.

Glen


----------



## Gord (Sep 3, 2004)

Good advice all around except for that guy who likes barberchairs. I would add that it's essential to pull directly opposite the lean unless the off-direct pull can be compensated with another line or tapered hinge. For the most acute leaners setting a redirect block an appropriate distance above the ground makes for a much easier pull and greatly reduced strain on the hinge.


----------



## murphy4trees (Sep 3, 2004)

*to stumper*



> Dan'l. Center boring a hinge is a log-butt integrity preservation technique--period. It offers no safety benefits in the actual felling of the tree. ( It is disadvantageous in fact.)



Hi Stumper,
You know I have a lot of respect for your opinions and will always think twice upon hearing your critiques.... You've added some important pieces to the conversation that greatly supported my theory of why the tapered hinge works so well etc...

So please don;t take this the wrong way... Your statement above may be true, and please note that when I mentioned the center plunge, I did not make a firm recommendation, just said "you might consider" it. 
I personally have little experience with the center plunge and the subject has come up BIG TIME becasue I used one on the cover pic for July TCI mag...

The only reason I used one there is cause Big Jon recommended it. If I've learned anything over the past year in this business, I've learned to NOT ARGUE WITH BIG JON... We later discussed the reasoning behind the center plunge for this specific tree.... 

I happen to agree with the thinking that removing fibers from the center of the hinge on backleaners makes it easier to pull against the back lean without sacraficing hinge strength much. At wort it is a good trade-off IMJ....

Now you make the above statement as though you know this to be a fact... I make a clear distinction in that I don't claim to know the facts, just have an opinion based on common sense and some field observations... 

I believe there is know science to support your claim... And therfore would caution anyone here from believing your statement as fact...... And you probably have more experience than me with center plunging back leaners, so I Am intersted in hearing about your experience and in depth thinking on the matter. If there is science to back up your statement, please site it...
Thanks


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)

Real simple.

A 1" hinge will bend easier than a 2" hinge bored because there's disproportionately less tension fiber in the 1" hinge.


----------



## murphy4trees (Sep 3, 2004)

OK that's what you say... now where is the science to prove it?

THERE IS NONE!

please note: I AM not saying you're wrong... just that ther is no science, so it's an opinion based on experience, but not a fact....


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)

Actually Daniel, you can measure it for yourself. All you need is a couple of short green logs, a tension scale, and a solid place to anchor both.

There's my science.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 3, 2004)

When in a precarious situation, such as when falling lock stock and barrel when the tree is near structures etc., it takes a whole lot of nerve. The trick is to implistly trust your holding wood.
Now lets say for example a relatively straight tree sets back on the backcut. If the holding wood is only 10% or less of the total stump area, it will not fall in that direction unless subject to high winds.
Case in point: Today I was falling a 38" dbh Rock Maple that had a slight lean towards an adjacent property (open feild).
To help commit the tree over, I backed the log skidder up to the tree, climbed on the log arch, which put me 13ft. above the ground. From this position I tried to lassoo the trunk with a 10' choker, but could not get it around. So I had to choke it at only 5' above the ground.
Having done this, I drove the skidder ahead 125' under the intended direction of fall and locked the brake drum with the cable being very taught. Then I proceeded to place all the cut. Having done that I climbed on the skidder and applied 30,000# of pull. I couldn't see the tree move, but it did lift the front end of the skidder 3 ft. off the ground which weights 16,900#.
To get out of this one, I had to release the cable, which caused the tree to set back until the backcut closed. 
So at this point, I had two options. I could back against the tree with the log arch of the skidder and push it over, or relocate the cable on the trunk and choke it higher, which is what I did with the help of a long stick, so the tree was choked about 7' above ground now. After repeating the winching procedure, the tree simply fell in the intended direction. The tree weighed about 18,000 lbs. I have repeated this many times in the woods over the years and have never had a tree get away on me- knock on wood.
My point to this big long disertation is two things:
1: The strength of holdingwood.
2: The mechanical advantage of leverage.
John


----------



## murphy4trees (Sep 3, 2004)

*make it so*

NE:


> All you need is a couple of short green logs, a tension scale, and a solid place to anchor both.



That's not science... it's a sentence.... make it happen and report back to us with the data... then it'll be science...

again I'm not saying you're wrong and I'd really like to know what works here... our industry is waiting Eric... please hurry!


----------



## NeTree (Sep 3, 2004)




----------



## John Stewart (Sep 3, 2004)

Yikes Gypo
It worries me when guy's like yourself tell stories like that cause you never know who is listen!
Let me elaberate
1) You have a skidder not a 4x4 or Bobcat
2) You had a open feild not a lawn with a house beside it
3) You had cable not a old climbin line out of the shed
These are thoughts that go thru peoples heads when they read post like yours!
Later
John


----------



## Stumper (Sep 3, 2004)

Daniel, The science goes back to our previous discussions about neutral planes, tension/compression and the way wood breaks. As I stated then-science/physics reveals that doubling thickness increases strength(resistance to bending) by a factor of 8. Doubling width increases strength by a factor of 2. If you bore out half of the width of the hige you can only make it fractionally thicker to have the same strength. However, thicker wood can bend less distance before breaking (a greater distance from the neutral plane means the outermost tension fibers are strecthed a greater distance for a given degree of arc and consequently rupture at less arc than a thin piece of the same wood). In another thread you mentioned thicker hinge straps resisting twisting better. I will grant that may be true. I have never experienced a twisting failure of a balanced hinge (or reasonable tapered hinge) when felling a tree. (On lateral branches in weak wooded trees trying to make a sideways swing, yes.) I do not dispute that centerbored hinges have performed well for many pros but do not believe that they can be shown to be superior from a control standpoint when the existing science is taken into account. They do save salable timber. A noble purpose.:angel:


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 3, 2004)

Hi John, thats very true! If I was doing that for the first time, I guess my knees would be knocking. lol
I guess sometimes things can sound like, "just another day at the beech", but it is pretty dangerous all in all, if we don't think ahead.
For the mathematicaly minded here is a question: If a 90' tree weighing 18,000 lbs requires 30,000 pounds of pull to commit it over when choked at 6' above the ground, how many # would be required at 30'. I know this is a hypothetical question, so appoximations may be valuable as a rule of thumb.Hinge thinkness and hardness of wood obviously is a factor, as is lean, but would 4000# be in the ballpark?
John


----------



## glens (Sep 3, 2004)

30' &divide; 6' = a factor of 5

How about 30,000# &divide; 5 = 6,000#?

Personally, I'd have left the front of the skidder in the air and driven in some wedges...&nbsp; hahaha!

Glen


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 3, 2004)

Hi Glens, I was gonna do that with the skidder in drive, but I didn't want to damage the residual stand.
I guess my question shows that I only went to grade nine. lol
John


----------



## xtremetrees (Sep 4, 2004)

.
What is the purpose boring center out?
I do not think that either way of notching/or not, limbs aloft is most suitable application or safer. Thou the notching does increase predictability and seperation into air the simple back cutting can reduce sway and movement.

Gypologger I bet you can pull them with that.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 5, 2004)

Apart from preventing grain pull on saw logs, it's done on smaller trees when you need to stuff a wedge in without the tip bottoming out in the backcut.


----------



## a_lopa (Sep 6, 2004)

this falling method usually works


----------



## Stumper (Sep 6, 2004)

Aussie, Bad Aussie-making such an off topic post. The question was about PULLING trees. Tsk, tsk. 
That looks like a messy method-all those roots to dispose of.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *.
> I do not think that either way of notching/or not, limbs aloft is most suitable application or safer. Thou the notching does increase predictability and seperation into air the simple back cutting can reduce sway and movement.
> 
> *



You can use a notch to swing branches away from an obstacle, for instance.


----------



## Bradley (Sep 6, 2004)

So after all of the info presented on this site in the last few years there are those that still use techniques like a barberchair? ON PURPOSE? I cannot believe what I just read. 

I learned the hard way about ten years ago pulling over leaning trees with a comealong hooked to a 3:1 pulling on a tree about 8' high. The holding wood failed under the pressure and the tree fell off the stump sideways and hit a shed. Almost killed us. I didn't know any better then and am thankful that I now know proper techniques.

To even think about such ludicrousy boggles my mind with the info and knowhow available on this site.

Steve.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 6, 2004)

If there's ever been a ligitimate situation to deliberately barberchair a tree, I've never come across it in 22 years of tree work.

Except, of course, making a video of what NOT to do...


----------



## Stumper (Sep 6, 2004)

I'm going to cut Xtreme a teeny tiny bit of slack. Serveral years ago I had a situation where I deliberately barberchaired a pine. A wet snow followed by high winds had busted and bent a bunch of pines and one of them was bent several feet off the ground with the top almost parrallel to the ground extending straight over a garage. I roped the top and ,rigging off of another tree, I slowly cranked the top around 90*until it was parrallel to the garage wall. the tremendous pressures I was building in the butt of this skinny 8-9inchDBH tree made me leery of trying anything else fancy-I reached in carefully with the bar tip and back cut it and let it blow up since there was nothing that the butt could reach. 'Twisting on the stump' Xtreme says-Okay, It has an application. Nothing I would recommend for a normal situation.:angel:


----------



## NeTree (Sep 6, 2004)

Justin-

Looking back, you don't think there was a better way to do it?


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 6, 2004)

Hi Eric, sometimes when I want some firewood real fast I'll barberchair so I don't have to split the stuff.
John


----------



## Stumper (Sep 6, 2004)

Yeah, with a bucket. Since I didn't have that option and didn't trust the tree not to barberchair if I had tried cutting a notch before winching it sideways I selected what I did as the best option. It worked as planned so I guess I'd do THAT ONE over the same way. Older and wiser now, I'd charge a bunch more and rent a lift if I ever face a similar situation. I should mention that there were about 20 bent trees on the property and I practiced the sideways twist on some others in non-critical places to see if I could get away with it.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 6, 2004)

John, Erik here...

Taking the lazy way out, aren't ya?


----------



## NeTree (Sep 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> * I practiced the sideways twist on some others in non-critical places to see if I could get away with it. *



Sounds just like Russian Roulette.


----------



## Stumper (Sep 6, 2004)

Maybe it was. I was trying to NOT simply try to be lucky. These were small trees and I had room to experiment and see how much I could flex them. I found that they wouldn't break with the rigging I was utilizing. I was able to stand some of them up and drop them in the desired direction by rigging high in neighboring trees. The one over the garage wouldn't stand back up-too much bend and too much weight without a very good overhead rigging point. I had the thing supported (roped)so that if it failed it wasn't going straight into the roof. I moved the tree around without being in the path if it came apart (love good rope) Making the backcut was a cause for concern. I leaned in and nipped it carefully and had another trunk to interpose between my body and the barberchair. It was stupid risk that I was trying to play smart-good results but I WOULD do it differently now.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 6, 2004)

Being cautious is kinda like being in the national guard...


You might not get as much action as the front line, but you WILL live to fight another day.


----------

