# Come-along vs. Rope mechanical advantage system



## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Been toying with the idea of buying some good pulleys from Sherrill, some rigging tails, and making my own mechanical advantage setup. My climbers says there's no point since we have a come along that seems to do the job and is less expensive and has more pull. We've used the come-along to tension the porta-wrap line and to pull trees.

$50+ for a come-along or $200+ for a rope mechanical advantage setup.

What, if any, are the advantages of the rope system?


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## Del_ (Jun 23, 2015)

Maasdam rope puller plus pulleys for M/A.


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## RajElectric (Jun 23, 2015)

+1 on the maasdam and pulley.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Maasdam rope puller plus pulleys for M/A.


 
That's what my climber has. He picked it up for about $25 at a yard sale. We used it last week with the porta-wrap and it was fine. Rigged it under the porta-wrap on a whoopie sling and had it pulling on the main line going to the porta with a prussic at the end of the rope line running through the puller. It was great.

Just wondering why some people use or prefer to use a rope system since it's more expensive.


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## Hoowasat (Jun 23, 2015)

Groundman One said:


> Just wondering why some people use or prefer to use a rope system since it's more expensive.


I already had rope, carabiners and know-how to tie a Blakes, so two of the double-sheave pulleys only cost me about $60. Why buy the whole system if you already own most of the components? Besides, the pulleys stow in a much smaller space & they're easier to rig while aloft.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Hoowasat said:


> I already had rope, carabiners and know-how to tie a Blakes, so two of the double-sheave pulleys only cost me about $60. Why buy the whole system if you already own most of the components? Besides, the pulleys stow in a much smaller space & they're easier to rig while aloft.


 
I hear ya.

I was going to get two pulleys at $60 each and a couple of rigging tails, and maybe one more good carabiner. Nice and clean and new. But the rope puller my climber has works really well. We just the leave the rope end in the puller bare and tie it as a prussic to the line feeding into the porta wrap.

Again, I was curious if there was some clear advantage to the rope system that I was unaware of that made the extra cash outlay worthwhile. Sherrill has a nice 5:1 rope system but with the tax it's nearly $400. but the 10:1 rope puller is maybe $75. I'm sure some people prefer the rope system, was curious why.


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## Del_ (Jun 23, 2015)

Hoowasat said:


> I already had rope, carabiners and know-how to tie a Blakes, so two of the double-sheave pulleys only cost me about $60. Why buy the whole system if you already own most of the components? Besides, the pulleys stow in a much smaller space & they're easier to rig while aloft.



I've often used two of the SMI double sheave pulleys and the Maasdam rope puller. This gives a 4/1 M/A and multipling the puller's 1,500 rated pull X 4 with a 3/4 rope going into the tree being pulled. I don't use this rig for lowering. If we've got serious lowering and lifting to do the GRCS comes gets used.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del_ said:


> I've often used two of the SMI double sheave pulleys and the Maasdam rope puller. This gives a 4/1 M/A and multipling the puller's 1,500 rated pull X 4 with a 3/4 rope going into the tree being pulled. I don't use this rig for lowering. If we've got serious lowering and lifting to do the GRCS comes gets used.


 
Are you going over the WLL of your rope and/or connectors when you use a rope puller and double sheave pulleys?


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## Del_ (Jun 23, 2015)

Groundman One said:


> Are you going over the WLL of your rope and/or connectors when you use a rope puller and double sheave pulleys?



Not usually. We use galvanized clevis's Vs. carabiners.

http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=231&item=1359


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Not usually. We use galvanized clevis's Vs. carabiners.
> 
> http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=231&item=1359


 
Why kind of rope are you using?

I'm going to grab some 3/4" Dynasorb soon. But even that stuff maxes out at 2300lb WLL.


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## imagineero (Jun 23, 2015)

The main advantage to using pulleys is that a lot of guys already have them. I've got a bunch of pulleys sitting around, none of the double/tripples, but plenty of singles in a bunch of sizes. I don't use them for lifting, but for technical pullovers it's hard to beat the control and gearing you can get. By gearing I mean you can tune the system to get the amount of pull you need. 

I'll usually start with a 3:1 using 7/8" with 9 tonne pulleys, and stack another 3:1 behind that. Stacked combinations multiply each other, with a bit of loss, so that gets you somewhere around 8:1. I can then stack another 3:1 behind that, and another 31 behind that if needed, using progressively smaller ropes/pulleys. The ropes at the tail end see less weight that the ropes at the business end. It's pretty easy to achieve 50:1, so one Groundie can pull over a substantial tree. It gives a lot more control than, say, a rope tied to a truck. Like comparing a scalpel to a sledgehammer. It is slow, and you may have to reset the final 3:1 multiple times to achieve the desired pull at the business end. I usually put some progress capture in there too. 

Variations on this theme can be useful if you need to climb a partially failed tree to climb it. 2-3 guys ropes can stabilise most trees enough to make them safe to climb.


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## RajElectric (Jun 23, 2015)

I have these for lighter loads. Was a good place to start for me. Price point was good, quality is OK. They come in handy. It's not the be all end all, I just ordered the individual pulleys elsewhere on the seller's page. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Twin-sheave...120?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f10603110


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## Del_ (Jun 23, 2015)

Groundman One said:


> Why kind of rope are you using?
> 
> I'm going to grab some 3/4" Dynasorb soon. But even that stuff maxes out at 2300lb WLL.



Sampson 5/8 and 3/4 inch stable braid. I don't know the exact loads I've placed on the pulling system but I doubt it ever exceeds 1,500lbs. My most often used tree pulling over system is 5/8 with a midline tie in to 1/2 three strand running though a block back to the Maasdam. Sometime on easy pulls it's just the 1/2 three strand with the Maasdam doing a straight pull. Got to watch the straight Maasdam pull though as it can get you in trouble.

http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=3&item=1832


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

RajElectric said:


> I have these for lighter loads. Was a good place to start for me. Price point was good, quality is OK. They come in handy. It's not the be all end all, I just ordered the individual pulleys elsewhere on the seller's page.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Twin-sheave...120?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f10603110



Nice. And portable as well.

I figured a small setup would fit right in the bag with my porta-wrap and whoopies.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Sampson 5/8 and 3/4 inch stable braid. I don't know the exact loads I've placed on the pulling system but I doubt it ever exceeds 1,500lbs. My most often used tree pulling over system is 5/8 with a midline tie in to 1/2 three strand running though a block back to the Maasdam. Sometime on easy pulls it's just the 1/2 three strand with the Maasdam doing a straight pull. *Got to watch the straight Maasdam pull though as it can get you in trouble.*
> 
> http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=3&item=1832



What exactly are you getting at there? _(Last sentence in bold.)_

Nice rope. 

This is what I'm getting: http://www.sherrilltree.com/Dynasorb-Energy-Absorbing-Rigging-Line-3-4#.VYn9t2cg85s

Just  the Dynasorb!


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## Del_ (Jun 23, 2015)

Groundman One said:


> What exactly are you getting at there? _(Last sentence in bold.)_
> 
> Nice rope.
> 
> ...



What I'm getting at is the Maasdam rope puller using no M/A can get to be hard to crank, meaning it is reaching it's pulling limit. A 2/1 system works so much better as I can toss a throw line high up into the tree, pull the 5/8 rope up and do a base tie above the felling notch. My 5/8 is 150ft long and the 1/2 inch three strand which the Maasdam requires is 120ft. long. Quite often when pulling trees over we'll tie a pulley to the base of another tree and do a redirect to get the Maasdam operator out of the felling area and sometimes even using a tree right next to the one being felled for the Maasdam anchor. I do this often when felling trees solo.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del,

Let's say you just want to max out the tension on the line going into the porta-wrap, that being the case, the WWL of the tensioning/pulling hardware can be below or well below the requirements of the main line, connectors, and lowering device obviously, right? It's only a temporary pull, not a retaining line.

The scenario is putting max tension on a securing line coming from a leaner that my climber is in. If I have 100'+ of pull line going from the leaner, bridging in a center tree, and coming back down to ground level in a third tree into the porta-wrap, it's not easy to really put some good English on that line by hand.

The point being that the M/A setup can be very small and portable I would think. Whereas a true pulling line as what you described above has to be in balance with the strength of all your components. 

_Great post above. _


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## imagineero (Jun 23, 2015)

Groundman One said:


> Why kind of rope are you using?
> 
> I'm going to grab some 3/4" Dynasorb soon. But even that stuff maxes out at 2300lb WLL.



It's worth noting that wlls are usually 1/5 of breaking strain to account for shock loading and increase the cycles to failure. For the relatively static purpose of lifting/pulling you can safely use a WLL of half the MBS. 

There's a thread somewhere on here that breaks down the realities of WLL, shock loading, MBS, CTF etc


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## Del_ (Jun 23, 2015)

Thanks Groundman. That was an old drawing I had on my hard drive.

I see now that you are talking about guying a tree that the climber is in. I like to use two guy lines if at all possible. If a limb or piece of trunk were to hit a guy line it can put a large load on the tree being guyed.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

imagineero said:


> It's worth noting that wlls are usually 1/5 of breaking strain to account for shock loading and increase the cycles to failure. For the relatively static purpose of lifting/pulling you can safely use a WLL of half the MBS.
> 
> There's a thread somewhere on here that breaks down the realities of WLL, shock loading, MBS, CTF etc



I'd like to see that.

I try to be conscious of the limits and conditions of all the hardware and ropes in any given setup. I spend a good deal of time securing things for my climber, and when he asks me if things are secured, I like to know everything is as it should be.


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Thanks Groundman. That was an old drawing I had on my hard drive.
> 
> I see now that you are talking about guying a tree that the climber is in. I like to use two guy lines if at all possible. If a limb or piece of trunk were to hit a guy line it can put a large load on the tree being guyed.



I hear ya. But it happens sometimes that only one line to secure the tree is possible. Sometimes we're lucky to have one solid tree at 180 degree to the leaner to tie off to at all. That being the case, I want to put a good amount of tension on the line. That's where I'm wondering if a small "undersized" M/A setup would suffice. A 3:1 setup from some small pulleys might be enough to tighten that securing line enough so that there is minimum play in the leaner as my climber is either removing the top so we can lower the trunk, or is cutting the top to free it from another tree it is stuck in.


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## imagineero (Jun 23, 2015)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/light-rigging.212035/

I put a post with a link about half way down the first page. I've made a few posts on the same topic in other threads but this is probably the most comprehensive one I've made


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## Groundman One (Jun 23, 2015)

Del_ said:


> I see now that you are talking about guying a tree that the climber is in. I like to use two guy lines if at all possible. If a limb or piece of trunk were to hit a guy line it can put a large load on the tree being guyed.



In case my explanation wasn't bad enough, I offer you even worse artwork. 

My climber is in the leaner/uprooted tree, and he either has to remove the top which is over something we can't damage, or it's stuck in another tree. I want to tension that line really well to secure the tree and minimize play. Once he's removed the top or cut it free from the tree it is in, we either lower it with the porta-wrap, or drop it as it won't damage anything.

This is where I would want a small M/A right at the porta-wrap to maximize the tension, but not to actually lift the tree.


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## BC WetCoast (Jun 24, 2015)

In that situation, I would use a prussic around your pull line above the portawrap. You could either use a puller (come-a-long, tirfor or pulleys) to put as much pull into the situation as you want, then secure it with the portawrap. Then lowering with the portawrap is easy. The other way is to anchor the portawrap with the puller, however, you may run out of pull rope and then have to muck around to capture your rope.


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## imagineero (Jun 24, 2015)

Kind of depends on the size and lean of the tree, but from my experience 3:1 is nowhere near enough to put tension on anything but a small tree. I've guyed some huge leaners this way, but average size trees need somewhere in the 10:1 range. I usually have the boys start tensioning while I'm standing off to the side perpendicular to the direction of pull. As soon as the top moves even an inch that's enough, they've taken the strain. I don't see any benefit in adding a porty to the mix in that scenario, so I usually just tie it off.

In the case of buying a tree to climb you also want to keep an eye on the system to watch for slack. If the rope starts getting slack the tree is standing up. It's sometimes too subtle to notice it as you're going along, but if it has a bf uprooted root ball then that's a lot of counterweight. I've guyed them on the down hill side also to remove danger of the tree standing back up while I'm in it and when the crown has been taken out. Storm work can bring out some real head scratchers with multiple large trees uprooted and heavily leaning. 

The same setup occasionally gets used as a side guy for a tree where the hinge would otherwise side snap when falling. You sometimes need a lot more MA for countering the weight of a heavy side leaner so you can fall it perpendicular to the natural lay. Some times it will be bothe a side leaner and a back leaner, needing two sets of ropes to manage. In the case of severely brittle/rotten back/side leaners I've also sometimes added a ground tie off to prevent the butt of the tree kicking in the event that it just collapses while making the back cut. It's a long slow process to set all that up, but sometimes it's the only safe way of taking a tree out.


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## Nish (Jun 24, 2015)

I often use the Maasdam rope puller plus extra MA. I used tenex prussics to link the three-strand to the bull rope until I started melting the prussics and glazing the double braid. Anyone one else had this problem? Now I use a bowline or BOAB with rigging carabiners or shackles. 

Has anyone ever had a Maasdam rope puller fail under load? What exactly happened?. I'm wondering when it's worth the trouble to back up these devices.


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## Groundman One (Jun 24, 2015)

BC WetCoast said:


> In that situation, I would use a prussic around your pull line above the portawrap. You could either use a puller (come-a-long, tirfor or pulleys) to put as much pull into the situation as you want, then secure it with the portawrap. Then lowering with the portawrap is easy.


 
That's what we've been doing. Works really well. Just wondered is a small rope MA had an advantage for speed and portability.


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## Groundman One (Jun 24, 2015)

imagineero said:


> Kind of depends on the size and lean of the tree, but from my experience 3:1 is nowhere near enough to put tension on anything but a small tree. I've guyed some huge leaners this way, but average size trees need somewhere in the 10:1 range. I usually have the boys start tensioning while I'm standing off to the side perpendicular to the direction of pull. As soon as the top moves even an inch that's enough, they've taken the strain. I don't see any benefit in adding a porty to the mix in that scenario, so I usually just tie it off.
> 
> In the case of buying a tree to climb you also want to keep an eye on the system to watch for slack. If the rope starts getting slack the tree is standing up. It's sometimes too subtle to notice it as you're going along, but if it has a bf uprooted root ball then that's a lot of counterweight. I've guyed them on the down hill side also to remove danger of the tree standing back up while I'm in it and when the crown has been taken out. Storm work can bring out some real head scratchers with multiple large trees uprooted and heavily leaning.
> 
> The same setup occasionally gets used as a side guy for a tree where the hinge would otherwise side snap when falling. You sometimes need a lot more MA for countering the weight of a heavy side leaner so you can fall it perpendicular to the natural lay. Some times it will be bothe a side leaner and a back leaner, needing two sets of ropes to manage. In the case of severely brittle/rotten back/side leaners I've also sometimes added a ground tie off to prevent the butt of the tree kicking in the event that it just collapses while making the back cut. It's a long slow process to set all that up, but sometimes it's the only safe way of taking a tree out.


 
Good stuff. Some of that we're already doing.

Sometimes we add the porta-wrap to secure the leaner just for the option of a slow descent. Some of those leaners, stuck or uprooted, are as you say puzzles, and sometimes we have to figure them out as we go. We porta-lowered an uprooted skinny (8") maple right over a woman's immaculate garden a few years back. Stopped the trunk a foot over the petunias or whatever the hell they were, and then bucked it up right over the garden and damaged not a flower. I thought she was going to have sex with the whole crew she was so impressed. 

You might be right on the 3:1 being insufficient on anything but a small tree for tensioning the line, but I'm still wondering if it might be handy sometimes just for that little extra _"oomph!"_. Then again, the rope puller seems to beat the rope MA in just about every way.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 25, 2015)

Sometimes a ratcheting puller offers to slow of a pull rate and is the slowest out of these three:

1. Ratcheting puller = very slow
2. Z rig= slow
3. Electric winch = a little faster than slow

Also a ratcheting puller is not a steady pull.


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## old CB (Jun 26, 2015)

I use a come-along to pull trees. Never have set up a M.A. pulley system, as the come-along is so simple. Don't have a Massdam rope puller, just the common come-along w/ steel rope. Set a log chain around the anchor tree, hook the come-along to the chain, girth hitch the rope to come-along hook, and go from there. Only thing you've got to watch is to make sure you've got enough length of pull on the come-along to get the tree over. Sometimes when tensioning we have to bust out small branches caught in the system and then re-tension. You don't want to get the tree almost pulled and run out of pull. For the size of trees we deal with here a one-ton come-along is sufficient.

As far as rate of pull, I like that it goes slow. I can monitor the progress. I'm usually at the base of the tree being pulled--having just done my back-cut--and my groundie is operating the come-along. "Gently" is usually my advice to him--I don't want to horse the thing and put undue strain on the hinge.


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## BC WetCoast (Jun 26, 2015)

old CB said:


> I use a come-along to pull trees. Never have set up a M.A. pulley system, as the come-along is so simple. Don't have a Massdam rope puller, just the common come-along w/ steel rope. Set a log chain around the anchor tree, hook the come-along to the chain, girth hitch the rope to come-along hook, and go from there. Only thing you've got to watch is to make sure you've got enough length of pull on the come-along to get the tree over. Sometimes when tensioning we have to bust out small branches caught in the system and then re-tension. You don't want to get the tree almost pulled and run out of pull. For the size of trees we deal with here a one-ton come-along is sufficient.
> 
> As far as rate of pull, I like that it goes slow. I can monitor the progress. I'm usually at the base of the tree being pulled--having just done my back-cut--and my groundie is operating the come-along. "Gently" is usually my advice to him--I don't want to horse the thing and put undue strain on the hinge.



Get a prussic loop and connect your pull line to the come-along hook at to the prussic. That way, when you run out of pull, you can tie the pull rope to capture what you've pulled and just slide the prussic up the pull rope.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 27, 2015)

And a strap or a whoopie for the anchor tree, save some bark.


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## imagineero (Jul 5, 2015)

Most guys could do better just by rethinking their work method a little. A common one I see is guys not thinking about line angles. If you're trying to pull over/lift with a rope, as the angle of the rope moves away from 90 degrees, the amount of side pull/lift you can exert diminishes. Beyond 45* you're pulling down more than you're pulling sideways. Beyond 20* you're pretty much wasting your time. A lot of groundies don't seem to get it. If we're pulling over and I keep telling them to move further away from the tree, they say something like "we're far enough away, there's no chance to get hit", not realising that 1 man further up hill can put more meaningful effort than 3-4 of them being close to the tree. The other issue is that with a steep rope angle you can't put anywhere near as much pull on it as you can with a flat rope. Finally, only 1 man can exert any meaningful pull on a rope with a steep angle - the others are doing very little.

The solution for pullovers is get far away, and try to head up hill. If you're doing big trees in a residential setting, you can't get far enough away and still be in the same yard. Go into the neighbours yard. You need to be at least as far away as the tree is tall to get 45*. The second option is to use a redirect off the base of another tree. With the redirect, the rope is now flat, and as many men as you have can exert meaningful pull on it. That can be better than MA because they can pull fast. With an initial angle of 45* and a redirect, 4 men can exert a side pull of 400-500lbs if they have good traction. Those same men at 20* with no redirect are lucky to exert even 100lbs. 

Redirects are useful for manual lifting too, and you can just redirect from the base of the tree you're working on. In this way, a few guys can put quite a lot of lift, and it's easy to control the speed/distance for dynamic situations. You can also set MA from another tree back to the redirect which is practical. A lot of the time without a redirect you can only set the MA attachment not very far because the rope angle is too steep you can't reach. Having the rope redirected lets you make good use of the full length of it. I've got a light rigging setup which i often use for tight residential work, it's some 1/2" rope, a ratchetting one way pulley that lets the person hold 5x their grip, another pulley for redirect at base, and some slings. I'll take some pics of it if anyone is interested. I think I posted about it before.


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## Nish (Jul 5, 2015)

imagineero said:


> I've got a light rigging setup which i often use for tight residential work, it's some 1/2" rope, a ratchetting one way pulley that lets the person hold 5x their grip, another pulley for redirect at base, and some slings.



This sounds useful. What's the one-way pulley that you use?


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## imagineero (Jul 30, 2015)

Have a read of this thread if you havent done so 

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/fiddle-block-ratio.283445/


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