# hand filing



## clearance

How many people hand file their saws without any guide, just by eye, and file the rakers by eye as well? This question isn't for the weekend wood cutter or casual user. The reason is, do you think it is possible to do as good of a job freehand, as with a machine or guide if you do it all the time, year after year?


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## Crazy Canuck

I used to do it all the time. Still do in a pinch. I can get a decent sharpen that way but not nearly as good as with a guide. Getting the right angle is no problem by eye with eexperience but getting the right depth is another story. Rakers I always do by eye, usually because I'm to lazy to go looking for the gage.


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## Ax-man

I think hand filing is the only way to go, I have always done it by eye, including the depth gauges. Once you get a mental picture of what a sharp cutter is suppose to look like it comes easy with pratice, same with the depth gauges as to when they start to look high and need to be lowered.

Larry


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## Kneejerk Bombas

I filed cutters free hand for years, but always used a gauge for rakers, unless in a pinch. I thought it was real good and it was for the most part, but using the simple guides is so much more consistent and when it comes down to it, easier, why not use them?
I never met a tree guy yet that didn't think he was really a good filer, yet I have not seen a good filing job by any of them. What does that tell you?
The most important part is smooth, consistent cutting. Most guys think if it grabs like heck, that's good, but it should cut smooth and fast, grab and pull sucks.
My point is that you can adjust the gauge to cut to your parameters, and then every cutter and raker is exactly the same. If you file free hand, it will be inconsistent, no matter what kind of robot you think you are.


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## DDM

We File all of ours by hand.Actually my wife files them.


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## Stumper

I file freehand. I have a couple of shop grinders and various gizmos for sharpening but I seldom use them.


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## Ax-man

These threads have come up before, can we get a few definitions.

When we say freehand, do we mean just using the file by itself or using what I call a file holder , which is double beveled or V shaped, with the 30 and 35 degree marks on it. In a matter of speaking this is some what of a guide, but your still filing freehand.

A guide to me is something that is bolted or clamped to the bar. 

Larry


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## Stumper

Agreed Larry. I like a beveled handle file holder that allows a handy angle check. Index lines on the teeth really make holding the proper angles easy. I can hand file very well but Mike is right that inconsistencies do occur with freehand filing. Those inconsistencies can get a better run away from you if you are hurrying and don't have easy references and indexers. If I take my time on a chain and use care I get wonderful results. If I just hit a nail or grown in rock with only one side of the chain things are likely to be less than perfect when I hurry to make the saw cut for 2 more cuts to finish the job.


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## Tree Machine

A good start is to clamp the bar in a vise.






I think of freehand as using a file on which no guide mechanism is attached; just the file and a handle.


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## Lumberjack

I free hand the file and use a guage on the rakers.

When in the field I will make a plunge cut to hold the bar and put the rear handle between my legs.

Using a vice makes it almost too easy.


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## Tree Machine

I use an angle grinder on the rakers when I'm near the garage and have electricity. I don't recommend this method for those not comfortable using an 11,000 rpm handheld grinder. It's much faster than a flat file and it's pretty easy to keep them consistent. Just do one, the same as the next, the same as the next, and so on. Get the first couple right, you get em all right. Especially useful on the 24 and 36" chains. 

I'll hand file the rakers on the 16" chains because the time savings in using a handheld angle grinder isn't that significant. The rakers aren't as thick a gauge as on the bigger chains and file fairly easy by hand. 

Sometimes when using a flat file on rakers, I create this vibration that rattles the fillings in my teeth, like fingernails down a chalkboard. This is primarily why I went to using the angle grinder. The swiftness and speed was just a side bonus.


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## Lumberjack

How do you keep the depth consistant with an angle grinder? Get into a rythm bumping the grinder or what?


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## Tree Machine

*You pay attention*




Tree Machine said:


> Just do one, the same as the next, the same as the next, and so on. Get the first couple right, you get em all right.



Rhythm, feel, mojo. Yea, that's the stuff. <i>Light touch</i> is more the key than anything. 

<b>Be safe</b>. Doing this requires eye protection, face protection and ear protection. I wear leather welding gloves to protect the hands. Full helmet with face guard AND glasses. This is my formal dress for doing the chipper knives, too. 

These 4" grinders whirr at really high speed and can be dangerous.

Also, I use a cutting wheel, which is not as thick as the grinding wheel.


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## Lumberjack

Not to sound unsafe but thats alot of gear for just a 4" grinder. 

Around here we wear eye protection, hearing protection and gloves.

You think a 4" grinder is mean, try running a 7" with a motor the size of a MS200 working in pecarious situations.


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## Tree Machine

*Safety geek*

EEK! A 7" grinder would intimidate me.

Yes, I look like a spaceman when using the grinder, but it gives me a sense of security in feeling safe that I can concentrate and focus on the task at hand without the risk of getting unnecessarily injured.

I only grind the rakers down mebbe twice in the life of any given chain; once when fairly new, and again when fairly old. 

I try to wear a particle mask, too, because of the carborundum and metal dust that gets thrown off. 

I think the main reason many guys have trouble hand-filing is that the saw is unsecured. As Lumberjack says,


> Using a vice makes it almost too easy


I see it as the key to filing consistently; that, and having a fairly fresh file is really nice. A file guide on the file gets in my way. I like just a tad deeper gullet and an authoritative hook, as well as the rakers knocked down a bit. This is great for mid-power and big dog saws, but not so much for the top-handles.

Small saws are more sensitive to this chain treatment, as the chattering and grabbiness and stalled chain digs can't be overcome by sheer power.


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## newb

Just a note to all using a grinder versus a file. From my Tool making years if your grinding your chain your creating heat and anealing (softening) it. I have found the chain last longer if you file. I have the Stihl bench mount set-up but would like to find a good way to dress a chain in the field.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Whenever some yahoo grinds my chain and pushes to hard with the grinder (instead of making several very light taps), the cutter gets discolored and so hard I can't file it. I have to grind past the discoloring and then I can file it again. What's up with that?


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## SteveBullman

customers are constantly showing me chains they have had sharpened up "professionally" at the local saw shop. ive yet to see one thats done well. they've always been cut into too deep, or cut into the links or something. i think doing it by hand is the only way to go.......and i'm married so i'd know


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## Stumper

Jim, I know you are both a rebel who is willing to approach tasks in unconventional ways and a person who obsesses about doing things correctly and efficiently. Lowering rakers twice in the life of a chain will get you by but you aren't cutting at optimum efficiency for much of the time. It is time to experiment and reevaluate my friend. I know what you mean about file chatter. It isn't totally avoidable but a fine cut, high quality file really helps. A subtle depth gauge reduction every couple of sharpenings will allow you to maintain optimum cutting efficiency. I prefer a file for ease of control. A bench style chain grinder allows you to set a stop and control the depth gauge setting. A grinding wheel ina Dremel tool will work but requires frequent stops to regauge the work. I won't argue YOUR ability to be consistent with the angle grinder but I doubt my own.

Mike, Newb is right about annealing, but your experience is also correct metalurgy. Normally, heating and then air cooling steel anneals and thus softens the alloy, however, chainsaw teeth are very small and make a tiny heatsink. The edges we are sharpening are very fine. This means that they will "flash-cool" in air when over heated due to the great surface area in relationship to mass. Theoretically it is possible to both soften the tooth body and harden the cutting edge in one swell foop. One thing is certain. If chains come back with heatblueing on the cutters the job was NOT well done.


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## Ax-man

Anyone ever have the same experience I have had with cutting burned or charred wood. Takes the edge right off a chain and it seems it can never be sharpened again. I usually run into this when people try unsucessfully try to burn a high stump, big log or insurance work where a house has caught fire and killed a nearby tree. If you clean the area to be cut with a hatchet or axe you can get through the cut but the chain still take a beating and is never really the same afterwards.

Can some one explain what might be going on here?? 

Larry


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## WMTP

I file with a file only no guages or anything always works good for me rakers also.


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## SteveBullman

Ax-man said:


> Anyone ever have the same experience I have had with cutting burned or charred wood. Takes the edge right off a chain and it seems it can never be sharpened again. I usually run into this when people try unsucessfully try to burn a high stump, big log or insurance work where a house has caught fire and killed a nearby tree. If you clean the area to be cut with a hatchet or axe you can get through the cut but the chain still take a beating and is never really the same afterwards.
> 
> Can some one explain what might be going on here??
> 
> Larry



i have a burnt acacia to climb and dismantle next week....not looking forward to the job for that reason.....and the fact that all my gear is going to get covered in soot


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## Ekka

Mike Maas said:


> Whenever some yahoo grinds my chain and pushes to hard with the grinder (instead of making several very light taps), the cutter gets discolored and so hard I can't file it. I have to grind past the discoloring and then I can file it again. What's up with that?



I grind the bulk of my chains with an Oregon bench mounted sharpening machine, I touch up file in the field but by the weekend we can have 10 to 20 chains to sharpen.

What I have learnt is you have to frequently dress the grinding wheel, I dress it almost every chain, just a quick lick with a dressing stone so I keep getting a nice clean wheel. Only dress the bottom of the wheel and never the sides.

What happens is the material you have ground off (including sap etc) is filling the gaps in the grit of the wheel, once this gets bad (the wheels looks black) the cutting action is severely compromised and the grinding wheel will tend to rub not cut ... you'll blue up the tooth and bur the edge. Just like a file full of filings.

Small cuts is what is required and sometimes the chain has to go around a few times if you've hit stones etc.

The other thing I've found is you have to dress the bottom of the wheel with a large radius, if you dress it so it matches a file you'll soon discover that the wheel flexes and the side of the wheel will start to do the cutting not the bottom.

Use both sides of the wheel to get a longer life, I turn it around when I change sides of the chain.

Also when using these machines it's important to know which way to grind, into to the tooth or away from the tooth. I'm sure the book says away from the tooth but I grind into the tooth (I've found this better), and make sure the wheel is spinning in the right direction ... into the cut.

Make sure the left and right teeth are the same in size (length).

After all of these years I'm still the only one that sharpens chains properly on this machine. I show staff repeatedly but they get lazy and end up doing a crappy job, you have to be meticulous.

And I hand file the rakers last.


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## Stumper

Ax-man said:


> Anyone ever have the same experience I have had with cutting burned or charred wood. Takes the edge right off a chain and it seems it can never be sharpened again. I usually run into this when people try unsucessfully try to burn a high stump, big log or insurance work where a house has caught fire and killed a nearby tree. If you clean the area to be cut with a hatchet or axe you can get through the cut but the chain still take a beating and is never really the same afterwards.
> 
> Can some one explain what might be going on here??
> 
> Larry



Larry, I've experienced hard cutting in charred wood and mild dulling but never an ongoing problem with the chain. Charring crystalizes carbon which can be abrasive-which accounts for dulling. High temps below the surface(so that the wood is shielded from oxidizing) can polymerize wood making it more cut resistant. Strength an toughness go up but it isn't generally an extreme change.


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## Ax-man

Thanks Justin, I knew carbon played a role in this but that was as far as I could go with it, with your explanation I have a few more details. Getting a customer to understand this concept is going to be another challenge.

Larry


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## Ax-man

Getting back on topic here, I have tried different things over the years like different file holders, even have one of those 12V grinders but keeping track of those those stones and that little wrench got to be a hassle after awhile.

Even sharpening with bench or stand up grinder can get involved with taking chains off saws, putting them back on, changing and dressing wheels. Seems to be quicker to use a few basic tools when you only need to sharpen a few saws.

To me it is just simplier and easier to use the basic tools, like these. Homelite file holders with Sthil files, Sthil filing gauge for checking top and side plate angles and for the rakers, the reason for two is the setting for .404 is a little different than for the 3/8 ths and .325 chains, flat mill bastard file from Nickelson to take down the rakers, that little line level I use to put on top of the file gauge to make sure the mid section of the bar is level when I get a chance to use a vise. The rest is just practice, pratice and more practice.

Larry


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## Lumberjack

Larry, profound statement that using the tools made for the job makes the job easier and have better results. Seems some cant grasp that.


About file chatter, file the raker at an angle and use a high quality, sharp fine file. I would think that the cross hatch (think its called a b astard file) pattern might be smoother.


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## rahtreelimbs

I get chatter on the rakers when they are filed in the wrong direction. They should be filed with the angle of the cutter!


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## clearance

Mike Maas- you let some yahoo grind your chains, way to go. I know I'm just a lowly line hack but I can file a chain just deadly cause I cut lots and lots, unlike treehuggers that use handsaws.


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## Old Monkey

DDM said:


> We File all of ours by hand.Actually my wife files them.


*WOW!* You should marry her. :blob5: 

I have no love for machine ground chains. I have never seen a saw shop file one chain correctly. Ekka I like what you had to say about dressing the grinding wheel, makes sense. I'd love someone to show me the right way to grind a chain--next time I'm in Australia perhaps. I am a weirdo, I don't like handles or file guides I have a callous on my palm from sharpening saws. I like using a vise but at my current work we only maintain saws in the field. I don't think anyone can accurately file rakers without some kind of guide, counting strokes is very imprecise. A buddy of mine had a dial controlled raker guide so you could adjust your rakers by the type of wood you are cutting. Have any of you guys seen such a tool?


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## Ekka

Ax-man said:


> Even sharpening with bench or stand up grinder can get involved with taking chains off saws, putting them back on, changing and dressing wheels. Seems to be quicker to use a few basic tools when you only need to sharpen a few saws.
> 
> Larry



Depends what your cutting and how long that chains been on the bar.

Have you noticed in the bottom of the chains drivers there's a hole, that's the oil carrier hole.

I find removing the chain is a healthy habit as you clean out the bar and clean out the holes in the chain as they get blocked. Also gives you the opportunity to de-burr the bar, flip it over, clean out the oil hole and check the nose sprocket is lubricated and OK.

Some guys put a new chain on and almost wont take it off until there's nothing left to file!

Out eucs our tough customers with sap like glue and are extremely hard. It's a good habit to get those blunt chains off, clean things up and get a sharp chain on ... too often do I see contractors slamming the bar into the log and pulling on the saw trying to get the chain to rotate, it's hardly oiling etc .... tch tch tch, just lazy to pull it apart.


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## Tree Machine

That's why you're here.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

clearance said:


> Mike Maas- you let some yahoo grind your chains, way to go. I know I'm just a lowly line hack but I can file a chain just deadly cause I cut lots and lots, unlike treehuggers that use handsaws.



You bring up an excellent point, a good sawyer won't have to sharpen his saw much. Keeping it out of the dirt on every cut will help it stay sharp all day. LOL!

Doing a lot of residential work means hitting concrete, nails, hamock screws, birdfeeder brackets and other stuff, a lot. If I totally rock out a chain, chances are I'm not fixing it, it's cheaper to have someone else grind it, or throw it away.
Funny thing about sharpening chains, no matter how good you think you are, there are lots of people better than you.


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## Tree Machine

Just stay with this thread GICON. 

Sharpening a chain is anything but rocket science. I'm not saying there's little skill in it, but boiling it all down, the first tooth sharpened should (ideally) be done right, and the rest essentially identical.

I think we can all acheive a high level of proficiency. Most of us are starting from the same platform: two hands and a file. Why do the results vary so much?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Tree Machine, get a nice straight log, no knots, no taper, and strap it to an immovable object, so the end sticks out a few feet. Now take a new chain and cut a few cookies while your wife times you with a stopwatch.
Now file it and time some more cuts. Did you cut at least twice as fast? If not, you have more to learn.


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## Tree Machine

Mike Maas, I don't sharpen a new chain, even though I prefer a chain I've sharpened over that of one that is new, out of the box. This goes along with GICON's friend believing that he can sharpen better than that of the factory. It is true, but realistically, there's not <i>that much</i> difference, not enough to double the speed of a cut anyway.

The real difference is in the height of the rakers. If the height between the top of the raker and the top of the cutting tooth is 0.2 mm and I file the raker down another 0.2 mm, then the chain should be able to chisel out twice as much wood. This could double the speed of the cut, all other variables unchanged.

This is why I like my rakers knocked down a bit. Of the thousands of times I've sharpened a chain, I have been unable to get a chain sharper than the time I've sharpened it before. The only real difference I can get is with the height of the raker, but you can take this too far.

The only advance I've been able to achieve was from a suggestion last year by Stumper, who shared that rather than filing level and horizontal (perpendicular), that the tip of the file be tilted <i>downward</i> slightly, about ten degrees.

I don't measure this down-hill measurement, but rather pitch the file just slightly downhill of level. This did make a fraction of a difference, enough that I now employ that method regularly. Thank you, Mr Stumper.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

TM, you have a lot to learn. Racers will often set their chains up to have the rakers higher than the factory setting, how does that work with your "the only thing that matters is the rakers" theory?  

Watch out, it can be addictive.


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## Tree Machine

What I'm saying is that if the chain's cutting teeth are as sharp as they can be, what else is there that can make a difference?

I would very much enjoy making my chains sharper than what I've been doing. That's why I'm here.

I'm not boasting my skill, but I do feel like I've reached a threshold of maximum sharpness. Anything beyond is going to be fractional.

I'm trying to help the guys who are still struggling with it. And yes, I do have a lot to learn. That's much of the reason I'm here.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Both Oregon and Madsens have real good information on their sites. 
Oregon has a manual that is free if you go to a dealer, and all the info in that is on PDF at their site if you dig deep enough. 
Practice is good, if you learn theory first. To perfect it, you'll need to time cuts.
Most guys see big chips come out, feel the saw pull like mad and think it's cutting good, it's not until you time the cut that you see it's not.
A well cutting chain first cuts straight, then smooth, and finally fast. You see straight, feel smooth, and time fast.


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## Tree Machine

*Fair enough*

OK. I can see that. 

So assuming Mike Maas cuts straight, smooth and fast, what is the difference between you and a guy who's having problems achieving that? What will it take to get everyone cutting straight, smooth and fast? Let's stay with the title of this thread with the aproach that we're hand-filing.


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## SteveBullman

its all about experience. in 5 years time you'll realize that 5 years ago you couldnt sharpen as well as you thought. in another 5 years you'll again realize the same thing
and so on. so based on that, assume you're crap and you'll have more inspiration to better yourself


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## Tree Machine

I'm anything but the world's best. Funny you should mention that, Stephen. I do assume I am crap at most anything. It allows a sense of 'no direction except improvement' and gives your life a sense of humbleness and continual betterment.

I give myself credit, as we all do, when I am really good at something. Sharpening chain is one of those things I do well, though I still continually explore better ways of doing that. My intent is to share what I know and to learn more.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Tree Machine said:


> I give myself credit, as we all do, when I am really good at something. Sharpening chain is one of those things I do well, though I still continually explore better ways of doing that.



I don't know. That post about taking off your rakers with an angle gringer and without any accurate measurements had me squirming in my seat a little. It'd be interesting to see what those rakers look like under the scrutiny of a raker gage.


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## John Ellison

A cutting torch might work pretty good for that too.  

John


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Or you could just set it on some hard ground and hit them with a hammer.


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## Lumberjack

I still have much to learn, but I can chain to the same, or slighty faster than a new chain. 

Since the corner does the hardest cutting (severs the fibers from my understanding) it should be the main focus of a noobs sharpening. I think stumper also told me that the 10* angle helps hit the corner, thanks for that again. Sometimes I manage to let the file sink too low and hit the strap of the cutter, but so far no chains have broke from that.

The top and side plates should be sharp enough to trim your fingernails with, however there is a point of diminishing returns where the chains cutting edge is so sharp it is fragile and breaks easily.



The corner (IMO from my limited knowledge) should be sharp enough to cut rather deeply you should you simply bump it. I bumped my thumb on the corner (saw not running, i was sharpening it) two or three weeks ago, and it is just finished healing.


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## Tree Machine

Don't use a cutting torch. I know you're just joking. I wouldn't use a hammer either. I'd assume you're joking also, Mike, but sometimes I'm not so sure where you're coming from.

I don't believe I suggested that anyone should do their rakers with an angle grinder, but rather that, under the pretenses of using personal safety gear, and as long as I'm out there sharpening the chipper knives, that I will do it that way. I didn't even suggest that it was a better way to do it, just that it was faster, and even then, only with the larger 24 and 36" chains.

Did I mention 'light touch'? That keeps the wheel from taking off too much, and keeps the wheel from leaving cross-marks across the top of the raker. The top of the raker should be rather smooth when you're finished.

I've never measured how much I take off from a vertical perspective. I do it visually, gauging it horizontally. Since the raker starts out dome-shaped, by touching it with the grinding wheel you can estimate by looking at the newly exposed metal, left-to-right. The deeper you go, the wider the new shine. Just take off a little, and do every one of the rest the same.

The result is essentially the same as doing it with a hand file. If you're grinding wheel is out of round, you will know it by the chatter and this is definitely unsafe. 

Under the scrutiny of a raker gauge, I imagine they'd all be fairly close to one another. Since I'm only taking off a fraction, any differences between heights would have to be a fraction of a fraction.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

TM, I was just giving you a hard time, but to be honest you, can't do a great job with an angle grinder, although I'm sure you can get it pretty good. The smallest fration of an inch difference changes things, and don't forget, the raker height should not be the same as the last raker, but proportionitly shorter than its' cutter.


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## Stumper

GICON, This is old but there are some pictures that might help.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5068&highlight=The+best+sharpening


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Ok I'm going to share some important stuff, at least it helped me as I plugged along.
Firt thing is you need to know how wood grows, in tube like structures, sort of like a bundle of tubes. This is the grain you know about. 
When you take a chisle and try to cut into wood, you'll see its very hard to cut across the grain, typically you use a hammer to tap it in across the grain, like this:


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Once that is done, you can quite easily push the chisle down the grain by hand and remove the chip. No hammer required.
That's because the grain seperates much easier than it is too cut:


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## Kneejerk Bombas

When a cutter crosscuts through a log, the side plate is what does the cutting of the fiber, the top plate seperates the grain and does very little cutting. This is very important in the sceme of things.
Lumberjack said the corner does the cutting, but really it's the top of the side plate.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Here's a cutter:


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## Kneejerk Bombas

What is interesting is when a cutter hits wood, the whole cutter tips back on its heel and the cutter porposes up into the wood, taking a chip of wood out of the log, then it rides back down and does it again and again until it exits the other side of the log.
How far up intot he wood it chips, is determined by the difference in height between the raker and the cutter.
So when it starts this cycle the front foot of the cutter leaves the bar, then as it peaks the whole cutter is off the bar, then the front foot comes back down to the bar, and finally the rear foot hits.
One cycle, cuts one of those chips you see fly out the back of your saw.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

By the top of ther side plate, I mean the part above the red line (see attachment).
As you see, if you file the cutter back and don't lower the raker, the cutter won't hit the wood anymore. Each time you file back the tooth, the raker needs to be cut down the same amount the cutter is lowered. 
A light touch up on the cutter won't lower it much, so the average guy might only do his rakers when he feels a lack of performance. But we're not looking for average, are we?


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## Ekka

Hey, I found this, might back up what you said ... you know how if you tell some-one something they doubt it, until they see it elsewhere.

http://ilvirtualforest.nres.uiuc.edu/harvest/timstips/sawtooth.htm

Raker depth is critical.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

When you file the cutter, the main goal, and most difficult, is to keep that hook angle consistent. This requires you pay attention to the side plate as you file. Most beginners look down at the top of the cutter at the top plate and think they really know how to sharpen, but it's the side plate that matters.
If you want the same performance of a new chain, copy that angle. When your done filing look closely at the side plates of all the cutters, from the outside in (the same perspective as the above pictures). This is called the outside side plate angle.
Because round filed chain has a curved sideplate angle, you need to look at the average of the top approximately 1/16" of the sideplate.
If you filed totally free hand (no guide at all) you should be able to see slight differences in the cutters. If you can't see differences, you need to hone your observational skills or get glasses. A chain sharpened by hand will have perceivable differences from one tooth to the next, which is why using a file guide is better.


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## topnotchtree

I file all freehand. Mosly because Asplundh is too darned cheap to supply us with file guides.LOL. Honestly though, I do feel I am pretty good at getting a chain to cut good. I have been told that by a few. I also believe a good sharpening has to do with the half moon shape you see in the tooth when you look at it from the side.


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## clearance

Topnotch-Was thinking about going to work for Asplundh Canada myself. In utility work we hit all kinds of stuff with our chains. Even if you don't hit nails or old barbed wire embedded in the tree, all the sand and grit from the road that gets in the trees will make your chain dull. I'm with you on the side hook or half moon, in a workers comp. book it says not to do this cause "it will make the chain dangerously aggressive", sounds good to me.


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## Stumper

Deep hooks aren't good but some hook is natural with round ground/filed chain. Square filed cuts smoothest and best and has no hook or beak when properly done. The tools used make a huge difference in what is easy or even possible.


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## topnotchtree

Not quite sure what a square filed chain looks like or even means. Do you use a square file, not a round one? And if so do you need a different chain for this type of filing?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

There 's a good parallel thread going on right now:
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=18372 

It even has pictures.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

clearance said:


> I'm with you on the side hook or half moon, in a workers comp. book it says not to do this cause "it will make the chain dangerously aggressive", sounds good to me.



Too much hook slows you down as well as making it dangerous, that's important to know.


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## topnotchtree

Thanks Mike, maybe this whole thread belongs in the saw forum too!


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## Crofter

Lowering your rakers will allow a dull chain to keep on cutting. more hook (file lower on the tooth will also allow a dull chain to continue cutting (actually tearing wood out) They cause the chain to bite and pull hard as it inefficiently makes its way through the wood, but it is putting a lot more wear on chain, bar, and sprocket and vibration damage on the operator. As Mike Maas points out it also is not faster. When your tooth is filed irregularly as to straight line across top plate ( you wobbled or changed down handle during stroke) it is necessary to remove extra metal before you get a tooth that is sharp ALL the way across the top and down the side cutter. A straight stroke is a big plus. It gets you sharper with less tooth removed. If some of you are getting over 45 use your readers so you can see the chrome peeling. I have seen a few old fellows go back to the flat plate file guides because it is just easier for them to get good results in the field. I can round file with my readers, but use a 3X magnifier head band mounted for square filing.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Frank, the file guides make for a consistent outside side plate angle. They also have reference lines to help with outside top plate angles and inside side plate angles. Then drop your file a few degrees, and you also have inside top plate angle.
If you don't like any of the preset angles the file guide gives you, they can be changed with shims or grinding.
Freehand (no guide) leaves room for error. A skilled filer has little error, but error, just the same.
I see in your picture of the jig to thin cutters inside mating surface to drive links, you used a jig. Why didn't you just grab the cutter with a vice grip and grind away? See my point?


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## clearance

My old boss showed me the top hook (curve in the hook looking down on it) trick when I was juvenile spacing. I already knew about the side hook working good despite what has been said here (I don't mean a huge side hook, just a good one). Spacing is piecework so production is key. No undercut, just slice right through in one push with the back of the bar, the tree goes over your left shoulder as you move to the next one. You don't see it fall, it actually slides along your bar. This is known as stump-jumping. We used 266xp saws with 18inch bars and regular 73lg chain. 6-9 inch Douglas firs all day. This method works real good. After filing by hand for years I know that I can make a saw rip, but ultimately Mike is probably right about guides making for a more conisistent job.


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## Crofter

Mike I agree with you 100 % Most people use more hook and horse off the rakers to try to compensate for a dull chain instead of sharpening it properly. You better go back and reread me. Clearance if you sharpen often, and don,t worry about some of the tradeoffs I think you can get good results with what you are saying. Put a chain like that into the dirt though and the slender extended beak on the corner will need a lot of tooth removed to put a keen corner back on it. In otherwords it puts a sharp aggressive but delicate edge on a tooth.


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## clearance

Crofter-you are so right about it being a ????? to get a chain that has hooks in it back after it has been rocked. I only do this when I am falling. I like the rakers at about 30 thou. I have heard of guys bucking on a muddy landing that snap all the rakers off with vise-grips. When I worked construction last summer the foreman said "just file down those little tits, it'll cut better".


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## Scars2prove-it

I file chains free hand but rarely mess with the rakers. When it's time to file the rakers I just put a new chain on. I only pay $20 for an 84 link chain so I don't like my guys wasting time filing when they have better things to do. My crew is good at keeping chains out of the dirt so usually they only have to file after they hit metal in the wood. 

Some people that file free hand like to make the angle on the teeth real sharp. If there is a guide etched into the top of the tooth I show it to them and explain why it is there.


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## Tree Machine

Pretty awesome thread, Guys. I went up to my Grandpa's place this last week. I was rifeling through his garage and he had over a hundred spent 16" chain loops hanging on a wall! I don't think the guy ever threw a used chain away.

I was fingering through the collection, seeing if there were any salvagable chains there. I realized he used .050 gauge, and I use .058, so nothing there for me. All of the chains had teeth that were about halfway through their useful life, and then he retired them. Upon closer inspection I noticed not a single chain had the rakers filed back. I saw a lot of rakers that had the tippy tops rather highly polished and a good number of the chain's teeth were actually sharp, but it all came clear; no one had ever told him about filing down the rakers.


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## Tree Machine

Crofter said:


> Most people use more hook and horse off the rakers to try to compensate for a dull chain instead of sharpening it properly.......it puts a sharp aggressive but delicate edge on a tooth.



I'm guilty of this, except for the dull part. I'll often touch up a chain even when it's not truly in need. This because, as Crofter says, the tooth is a bit more delicate and sensitive. It's a trade-off in getting the 'sharp-aggressive'. It's a magical feel when, as Mike says, you get a fast, smooth, straight cut, expecially with the big saws through big wood.

I've adopted using a hatchet to shave away the circumference of the bark before doing an ALAP cut on the base of a takedown. A minute removing the sand and grit from the cut line will often save me having to resharpen. I take pride in sharpening a chain, but don't particularly enjoy it.


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## Tree Machine

Straight smooth fast.


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## Scars2prove-it

Tree Machine, Next time just grab that hose and blast the dirt off.


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## Tree Machine

I don't think it would be as complete, as quick or as dry. I've always got an axe on board, hose and water not always available. Wet mud, never an asset.


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## Old Monkey

This is a good thread. One thing that works for me is that if I dull the chain I stop right away and put licks on it. A lot of guys bare down harder and try to finish the job with a dull saw. I find this greatly increases the time it takes to sharpen the teeth. I also like to put licks on my saws while they're still sharp. It sounds weird but I find it easier to keep a sharp saw sharp. I tell my groundies to bring me dulled saws straight away. I hate seeing guys cut with dull saws. Clearance, a half-moon sounds too deep into your gullet. I usually picture it as a cresting wave. Stumper, I was always told to use a ten degree "up" angle. I can't quite picture what the advantage is to a ten degree down angle. Are there any pics of a cutter like this? Have any of you tried back filing? That is filing from the point in. I tried it when I was on a fire crew and found it to be sharper but it destroyed files and made a god awful noise. Fun to try though. I also new a guy named Rob Burney, a good faller who used a triangular file on his cutting teeth. 


I still think that no one can accurately file their rakers free hand.


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## Stumper

Monkey, It makes the bevel of the edge at the corner longer/finer/sharper. That is a trade off-if you rock out the damage is greater but it cuts better in clean wood. Accurate raker filing IS possible freehand (Sneaky trick number 462: Lay the flat file across the tops of the teeth and eyeball the gap. It is pretty easy to make them all the same if you check them.)


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## Brock2saws

Man, what a great thread. Finally we're talking about something that has application to tree work.

Sharpening chains is one of my weakest skills but like most things, I'm getting better with practice. I think one of the most impt steps in helping a beginner to sharpen a chain is to have them understand: a) how the cutter and raker works (as Maas so eloquently outlined); and b) where/how the file must be placed in order to optimize the cutter and rakers' function. 

These two concepts, until understood, have the propensity to leave ppl (even those who can put a moderate edge on) with the feeling that sharpening is "intuitive" leaving the uninitiated with a sense that the process is somehow "magic." But it's relatively simple, you just have to understand the characteristics of wood and the engineering of the cutter and raker.

Well done fellas, you've helped me a great deal. I'm looking forward to sharpening again.

BAB


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## Old Monkey

Brock2saws said:


> These two concepts, until understood, have the propensity to leave ppl (even those who can put a moderate edge on) with the feeling that sharpening is "intuitive" leaving the uninitiated with a sense that the process is somehow "magic."
> BAB



I think some people deliberately sharpen poorly just to get someone else to do it for them, "I can't do it as good as you...here you do it." I've been sharpening chains since '89. I'm much better at it now and hope to be better at it later, if I'm not too arthritic. I try to remember how it was for me when I was starting out. I give some pointers and then let them blunder through it on their own(on their saws ofcourse).


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## Crofter

The terms to define the file angle in regard to top plate angle are often confusion. The usual method to round file is from inside to out to prevent chatter. If you notice the top plate is (usually) inclined downward toward the centreline of the chain. To get a consistant bevel all the way across the top cutter you should match this angle with your file. Some people refer to down handle, or filing down and others refer to the same thing as filing upward. It is also possible to lower the handle even more than the top plate slope and achieve more hook at the trailing edge. This edge does the least work and can survive being of a more slender profile. It also renders a more sharp side cutter angle and more vulnerable corner to the leading edge. Advanced move that. Get plain vanilla down pat first.


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## jamie

*enjoyment*

i enjoy sitting down sharpening a chain at lunchtime, knowing that when i get up the saw will cut like a dream.i take pride in a razor sharp chain. hit something stop and sharpen. that and i got a roasting when i sharpened it wrong/ took to long.

jamie


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## Tree Machine

*Mebbe I'm just paranoid*

Did anyone else notice today, that when you were sharpening your chain there was this little Mike Maas sitting on your shoulder critically eyeing your sharpening job? :Eye:


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## Stumper

Tree Machine said:


> Did anyone else notice today, that when you were sharpening your chain there was this little Mike Maas sitting on your shoulder critically eyeing your sharpening job? :Eye:




Spring is here-the pests are out.  (We love you Mike-ya pest.) :angel:


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Here's a cutter angle that would cut through a paper bag. Anyone want to guess why?


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## Tree Machine

It would cut through the paper bag because no matter what the condition of a chain, a paper bag is no match?????? What izzackly you mean, Boss?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

There are four cutting angles of the cutter in this picture. Outside sideplate angle (hook angle), inside sideplate angle, outside topplate angle, and inside topplate angle. 
Each one is important. As I said before, the outside sideplate angle is by far the most imoprtant. The ideal angle is such that it hits the fiber straight across.
If you've followed me this far, you're wondering, how a curved angle can hit a bundle of fibers straight across. It can't. That's why square ground is faster, it can.


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## Tree Machine

The size of the round file used on this tooth was a size too big, yes? Wait, the file size is OK, but the filer had the file too high up in the gullet. 

Please continue.


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## Crofter

It was filed handle high. Hook is excessive yet not filed to the bottom of the gullet so I would guess that a too small file was used.


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## Tree Machine

By the looks of the gullet scarring, I'm not so sure it was done with a file. The cutting edges of a file are more or less perpendicular to the curved face of the gullet and wouldn't have created those long, horizontal striations. That tooth looks to have been done with a wheel, a coarse one at that, and the wheel was not adjusted downward enough.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

The cutter was filed by hand, see the shavings? the outside hook angle is way too steep. The file was to low.
In regard to the file handle been too high or low, it was too high, see the striations? They show the angle the file was held.
How high or low you hold the file handle determines the inside top plate angle.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

What is confusing you is the tooth is magnified. Before you argue with me more on this, file a cutter and look at it with a magnifying glass.
The teeth on a file do spiral, but when you push it straight across a cutter, it leaves straight lines. And a grinder does not leave metal shavings like you see stuck on the tie straps.

The point is moot because the principle I'm trying to explain is the 4 different cutter angles and what they each do, along with raker height and shape. For the sake of these points, it doesn't matter if you grind the angles or file them.


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## Crofter

I think the "smart money" is on the Maas. Pictures do funny things to perspective. I see another possibility. Se the remains of the original factory grind angle in the botton of the gullet. I assume that ange to be 25 / 30 degree and the one made by the file being much straighter across. Makes the file marks appear that the handle was high. Definitely too low on the tooth at the side plate. Could that be filed for ripping?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Ripping is an interesting topic to bring up now. Think about that board with the chisel I posted earlier.
When you rip cut, very little fiber gets cut. It's mostly like when you are pushing the file in the same direction of the grain in the board. As the cutter enters the wood, it cuts just a few fibers and then drags between the fibers making long strips of wood shaving.
The top plate and side plate sort of reverse rolls. The top plate does most of the fiber cutting and the side plate just separates the grain.
The outside top plate angle (that's the angle you see if you look straight down on the chain) now becomes the attack angle. You want it to hit the wood grain straight on. So ripping chains have almost no outside top plate angle.

The red line shows what a ripping angle might look like, the orange line shows a typical top plate angle.


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## Lumberjack

I am following your post carefully mike, I didnt know you had so much understanding of this topic.

Also on ripping chains every other pair of top plate is baisically removed.

I find that my working chain is acceptable for ripping pieces into managable pieces, I have never used a ripping chain though, I am sure there is an appreciatable difference.

The only time I get long stringy chips is when I cut with the bar running parallel to the log, such as if the log was laying in front of you and you set the dogs on the butt end of the log and cut down. It can be minimized by keeping the powerhead lower or higher than the tip.


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## Crofter

It seems harder to get good self feeding when doing 90 degree ripping. I have made up quite a few ripping chains by removing various amounts of the top plate. The teeth penetrate better and spend more time cutting intead of scraping and dulling themselves. Though you have removed almost half of your cutting edge it seems to cut faster and stay sharp longer. This is more noticeable on hard and dry wood.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

The one angle I haven't defined is the inside side plate. I couldn't figure out how to show the angle in the picture, so I just drew a circle.
A blunt angle will be short here, and a sharp angle will be long, if that makes sense.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Square ground cutters are easier to show the 4 angles. So here is a test to see if Lumberjack can name them.


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## Lumberjack

Mike Maas said:


> Square ground cutters are easier to show the 4 angles. So here is a test to see if Lumberjack can name them.




A: Top Plate
B: Hook angle 
C: Chisel Angle
D: Side plate angleEDIT: I see you called that "Inside side plate angle"

Hows that?


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## MasterBlaster

Carl, that pic needs to be at least _TEN_ times bigger! Get with the program!


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## Lumberjack

Hows this MB? You can take off your glasses now.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

A and B are outside top plate and side plate angles.
C and D are inside top plate and side plate angles.


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## Marky Mark

You guys put alot of effort into Johns picture when it was a joke from 2 years ago. Lamebert happens to be a great round chain filer. As for his race chain well he's been improving with that new 2K grinder he picked up a little while ago. :alien:


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## Ax-man

I had to dig this one up, let's see i someome can get this. 

What is the chisel angle of the inside top plate angle to the outside top plate angle. It' not rocket science either. I hope I'm saying this right to.

Larry


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## Tree Machine

Ax-man said:


> What is the chisel angle of the inside top plate angle to the outside top plate angle.Larry


It's acute one. No, really, I'm not being obtuse.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Marky Mark said:


> You guys put alot of effort into Johns picture when it was a joke from 2 years ago. Lamebert happens to be a great round chain filer. As for his race chain well he's been improving with that new 2K grinder he picked up a little while ago. :alien:



Marky, we're just using the picture because it's a good one. Nothing to do with gypo, other than he takes a good picture.
The goal here is to get folks thinking about what excatly they are doing when they push a round file across a cutter, so they're not just copying the exsisting angles and hoping it's good.


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## Tree Machine

Well you got me. As fast as the chain is whizzing around the bar, I'm trying to imagine it in super slow motion, the point where a tooth contacts wood, sits back on it's heel, takes a bite, where and how the fiber bundle gets cut, how a right side tooth leaves the left side kerf just a bit higher so the next left side tooth can meet the wood so correctly prepared by the tooth in front of it. I've always been amazed at how efficiently a sharp chain can glide through even the hardest of the hardwoods. Now I'm in awe.

Then yesterday as I'm filing a tooth to full sharpness, the little Mike Maas pops up on my shoulder, "Look at the gullet, look. No, I mean get your face down there and LOOK CLOSELY. See the parallel striations? That DOES happen with a round file."

Dang Mike. You're right. Now will you help me with adjusting this carb..... hey where'd ya go. Come back here!


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Another interesting point is what happens to the chip after it gets cut out. It slips past the underside of the cutter and ends up up against the next cutter. When several chips pile up there, the next cutter can't cut anymore, it just pulls the chips out.
If you had a saw with lots of power, and cut a medium log with a medium bar length, measuring the chip output, and then took the same saw and put a longer bar on it and cut a bigger log, you wouldn't get much more chip output.
The reason is long cuts build up woodchips early in the cycle, and the cutters spend most of their time clearing chips, not cutting.
That's why skip sequence chains work better in big cuts.
This reasoning is why low rakers make for inefficient cutting. You're better off having more cutters doing a little less work each, than having a few cutters making big thick chips and clogging up the others in the row behind it.


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## Crofter

Good Stuff Mike!


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## Tree Machine

That helps explain why if I use a brand new chain, out of the box, and it cuts fast, and then I bring the rakers down a bit it cuts faster. Clearly there's a point of diminishing returns when the rakers are taken <u>too</u> low. Long ago I took a new chain and completely ground off the rakers altogether. Not such a good idea, especially if you like to use the dogs as a fulcrum.

Thanks for spending your time on this subject. It is appreciated.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

As I mentioned before, what feels fast is often slow. Make sure your conclusions about cutting speed are backed up with some timed cuts.
A second consideration is what size and type of wood, as well as power to bar length combination. 
No one set of angles and raker height is best for all situations!
For work saws, you have to find the best set up for the average wood you cut with a given saw.
And finally, an aggressive chain can make running the saw a lot more work, and often the aggressive feeling chains actually cut slower.


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## Crofter

Mike, a thought just occurred to my idle mind. Seems like it is about time for someone to find a flaw in something you have said and a bunch more jump on the dogpile to discredit you, Lol! I find interesting your approach to break down the process of what is happening at the micro level. I got teased a bit by a couple of our illustrious members (smiling) for examining the different chips produced by square filed vs round filed chain and the different appearance of the cut surfaces. It makes some peoples puzzlers sore so they call it over-analysing: that kind of exercise has entertained me for a lot of hours. Maybe you can't put it in the bank but it sure beats watching TV.


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## Locoweed

These days it doesn't take much to beat watching tv.


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## d.martin.

oregon type round ground chain grinder for cutters and depth guage. Two or three in rotation will get you through the day. Sharpen for 36 in bar=5 min ea. cant beat it


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Crofter said:


> Mike, a thought just occurred to my idle mind. Seems like it is about time for someone to find a flaw in something you have said and a bunch more jump on the dogpile to discredit you, Lol! I find interesting your approach to break down the process of what is happening at the micro level. I got teased a bit by a couple of our illustrious members (smiling) for examining the different chips produced by square filed vs round filed chain and the different appearance of the cut surfaces. It makes some peoples puzzlers sore so they call it over-analysing: that kind of exercise has entertained me for a lot of hours. Maybe you can't put it in the bank but it sure beats watching TV.



I have two saftey nets. Round ground filing won't get the attention of the fearsome four, and comercial climbing keeps them away too.


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## Tree Machine

Personally, I like this exercise of overanalyzing, but only because it's for a short, concentrated time. The mental effort we're putting forth can offer you long-lasting benefit.

Deep, mind-stretching consideration causes you to think more during your work day about what you're doing, and why. For me, how sharp the chain is, and how fast it cuts <b>directly affects my income</b>. As well, it affects how hard the saw works, how the bar wears, how much cutting gets done per tank of gas used and how much work gets done by the end of the day. 

When you're cutting through wood, you should be entirely focussed and present in what you're doing. Every part of every second you are keenly aware of what is happening. This translates into how you <i>feel</i>. A sharp chain, slicing swiftly, cut after cut, is joy. A not-sharp chain requiring pressure, blowing fine dust or cutting a curve is not joy.

In the tree business, you ARE your tools. How finely tuned they are is an extension of your personal performance. Sharpness equals predictability equals control which equals safety. To truly pursue the outer limits of your technical abilities as an arborist, the sharpness of your chain is a critical element.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Can we come up with an optimal set of angles on our cutter? 
Is there an optimal height for our raker?
Do both those angles/measurements change as the cutter is filed back along it's length?


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## tawilson

I've been following this thread with interest because I too like to know how things work. Lately, it seems like when cutting, I'm noticing the sound of the engine less and am hearing the noise the chain is making going through the wood. I'm going to pay more attention tomorrow, but it seems like I can hear a chipping or clicking noise. I thought it was the sound of the chain on the bar and sprocket, but maybe I'm hearing the cutters work on the wood. Or am I nuts and should go back into my cave?


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## clearance

guys, especially Mike, thanks-this has been very informative. Have been experimenting with raker height for a while, now I will screw around with the almighty hook (hooks).


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## geofore

*nothing there???*



Tree Machine said:


> Pretty awesome thread, Guys. I went up to my Grandpa's place this last week. I was rifeling through his garage and he had over a hundred spent 16" chain loops hanging on a wall! I don't think the guy ever threw a used chain away.
> 
> I was fingering through the collection, seeing if there were any salvagable chains there. I realized he used .050 gauge, and I use .058, so nothing there for me. All of the chains had teeth that were about halfway through their useful life, and then he retired them. Upon closer inspection I noticed not a single chain had the rakers filed back. I saw a lot of rakers that had the tippy tops rather highly polished and a good number of the chain's teeth were actually sharp, but it all came clear; no one had ever told him about filing down the rakers.




There's 50 chains to practice on if only you'd buy a .050 bar for your saws. That's enough chain to get you good at raker adjustment and sharpening. If for no other reason, to practice hand filing. He was saving them for some guy to come along and get some smarts on chain work by practicing. You're that guy and all you need is to go get an .050 bar to make it happen.


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## Locoweed

*Opportunity*

The amount of interest in this thread by folks who aren't exactly newbies, demonstrates a need for a video showing how to do it correctly.

Seems to me that someone with the equipment could make a video, sell it to members and make a pitch to the various saw makers to include it with their products. (For a small fee of course)


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## Stumper

Mike Maas said:


> Can we come up with an optimal set of angles on our cutter?
> Is there an optimal height for our raker?
> Do both those angles/measurements change as the cutter is filed back along it's length?




Art Martin maintains that the raker setting should be deeper as the tooth is filed back. Since Art seems to know a lot about making chains cut and because the explanation he offered about how the teeth porpoise through the cut made sense I began setting my depth gauges to a greater gap after getting halfway through the tooth. Performance seems to be enhanced slightly. As far as topplate and sideplate angles go-I outlined my round filing method in the old thread linked previously. One thing that I regret about my lousy picture of a finished tooth in that thread is that the pic appears to show a lot of hook. It wasn't really representative of the actual tooth I shot and I have cut down on the actual hook since then. I still elevate the file handle but keeping the file higher on the tooth results in a sharp corner but a straighter outside sideplate angle. I come very close to the profile of the index marks on Stihl chain-just s l i g h t l y straighter. I suspect that those indices are a pretty good compromise for general use.


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## Tree Machine

I have to say I always file parallel to the index marks. I've been wondering if this is actually the ideal. I know dipping the tip of the file downward a bit causes the file to eat more of the top plate nearest you. To compensate, you shift your filing <i>slightly clockwise</i> to stay parallel to the index laser line on the back of the tooth. 

Is this sorta what you mean, Stumper, by filing just slightly straighter than the profile of the index marks, or does the line across the top plate that you create actually vary from the index?

I have the equipment to shoot and edit video. It's been an area of study for tha last couple years. However, I'm not so sure I'm the guy, even if it were only presented for free on a private website, not for monetary profit. I'm questioning my own expertise.


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## Locoweed

Just have a gorgeous babe in a bikini pointing out the high lights and everyone will rave about your video expertise. <G>


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## Crofter

Stumper can you clarify how exactly your file axis is off from the plane of the top cutter and what your theory is about the change in angles effected by that as opposed to having the file axis on the same plane. I am thinking about the confusion that exists in relation to this.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Any single shift in file postion changes all four angles.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Tree Machine said:


> I know dipping the tip of the file downward a bit causes the file to eat more of the top plate nearest you. To compensate, you shift your filing <i>slightly clockwise</i> to stay parallel to the index laser line on the back of the tooth.



When you dip the file handle end down, you make a sharper inside top-plate angle. Making the inside top-plate angle sharper will improve cutting speed very slightly, but the you will lose some "stay-sharp" of the top-plate cutting edge. This particular angle does very little actual fiber cutting, so it really has little to no effect.

The bigger change comes when you rotate the file back to compensate for lowering the handle. This makes the inside side-plate angle sharper. As I said, the side plate is important, it cuts most of the wood. A sharper angle will cut faster, but lose "stay-sharp".


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## Crofter

Tree machine is talking about dipping the tip but the described results sound like dipping the handle. I am not sure if Stumper is promoting the same thing.


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## Tree Machine

Thanks, Crofter. My quote refers to a downward dip of the file tip, a la Stumper. His followup refers to a downward dip of the handle, which no one has referenced as yet. So far, handle is either level or slightly upward. However, the way he describes dipping the handle end downward <i>would</i> create the result he explains.

Either way, to imagine this at the micro level, I'm having to (in my mind) exaggerate these adjustments and look at what the effect would be on that critical side plate angle.

Admittedly, I have always focussed on the angle of the top plate in keeping it parallel with the index mark. I mean, I knew the top plate itself had little to do with cutting as it slopes slightly downward from the point of the tooth inward toward the chain center (at least on full chisel chain).

I figured if that top line I'm filing comes straight and parallel with the index mark, and the point comes to an <i>absolute point</i>, then the side plate angle pretty much falls in line and takes care of itself. From there, the focus has been on the correctness of the file size (dependent on how new or old the chain is in its useful life) and how high up toward the top plate or how low toward the tie straps you are filing. After that, raker height.

I thought I had it pretty well in hand, that I had my sharpening method all tweaked in. Maybe I do. But then again, maybe I don't.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Crofter said:


> Tree machine is talking about dipping the tip but the described results sound like dipping the handle. I am not sure if Stumper is promoting the same thing.



Ok, that would have the opposite effect, make a blunter inside top-plate angle, and a blunter inside side-plate angle. Slower cutting, better stay-sharp.


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## Stumper

Frank, Yes. Raising the handle/dipping the tip. I think that Jim is correct about there being a slight clockwise rotation of the file in relation to the target angle-I really haven't paid attention because I simply file for the desired outside topplate angle.

Jim, What I was talking about was being slightly straighter than the curved index mark on the outside sideplate. As Mike is pointing out-whatever is done with the file changes everyangle on the tooth. Trying to create a sharp, Square corner(Outside) with a round file is problematical. Round ground chain can't do that and in reality round filing can't either BUT, by tipping the file and raising the file into the topplate so that the cutting is taking place slightly nearer the centerline of the round file, then going back to finish the side plate and inside topplate CORNER with a different file setting it is possible to have a corner with good stay sharp, limited beaking and a minimal hook in the sideplate itself. Having said that-the method I use raises questions-the angle on the sideplate below the corner seems wrong-yet the chain cuts better. Chipflow was discussed years ago and may be a factor. I think what this really points to though is Mike's point that the angles at the corner are most important. Sharpness at the trailing edge of the top plate and at the bottom of the sideplate seem to matter little so long as the gullets are opened to accomodate chips.


----------



## daddieslilgirl

well im not exactly sure what rakers are, i assume they are the high points on a chain. ive been dooing it for years (yeah i know i dont know the tech terms i just did it) i do 3 slashes with the file and then the next then after half the chain is done i turn the saw and do the same until all the teeth are done i dont know how i know where i started but i just do. i filed hubbies climbing saw and he was amazed, thought i put a new chain on. nope 3 and 3 and it works everytime. i dont know how to explain it id have to do it so you could see what i mean. lol sorry but thats one thing im really good at, and yes im ????ed proud of it lol


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## Tree Machine

Hi Daddieslilgirl. What a great treat to have another female here on site, welcome. Also, not a bad question. Here we are talkin about rakers, but we're all assuming we all know what we're all talkin about. Shame on us.

The 'rakers' are the metal nubs in between the cutting teeth. The cutting teeth, as you know, alternate left / right. in between each of these is a 'raker', also known as a depth guide. The function of these buggers are to prevent the cutting teeth from digging too deeply into the wood and causing the chain to come to a most immediate stop.

When a cutter hits and pulls out a chip of wood, the raker right behind then glides ON the wood, keeping that tooth from being able to further dig in.

If you look at your bar and chain, at eye-level, you will notice that the cutting teeth slope downhill, from the tip of the tooth, going back. As you file the chain, over the course of time, the teeth get shorter, front-to-back, of course, but also, <i>vertically</i>. There is a point where the vertical height of the tooth (the point or cutter tip) will be the same height as the raker in between the teeth. At that point the rakers will not allow the cutting teeth to cut, or the cutting will be very minimal. When this happens, you can have your teeth razor sharp to perfection, but the chain will be cutting agonizingly slow, and spitting out powdery dust at best. This is when you take a flat file and 'knock down the rakers', or file them down shorter so the teeth can again get a bite into the wood.

Stumper said something earlier, that if you take a small <b>flat file</b> (bastard file), turn it on it's side, lay it on the very points of two adjacent cutting teeth and look at the place in between them (the raker). Look at the air space between the top of that raker, and the bottom side of the file. This tiny little gap is what determines how deep that cutting tooth is gonna dig in.

Did that clarify things? Thank you for asking the question.


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## daddieslilgirl

well forget that ive never used a flat file in my life! lol my brother or my dad does it but thanks for the info


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## ROLLACOSTA

Well im exceedingly wealthy ! i just throw dull chains away .


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## Tree Machine

Did you get exceedingly wealthy being a tree guy? That would be a neat trick.


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## Ax-man

Did Mike abandon the thread??? I thought he was going to discuss more angles as the tooth is being filed back to nothing.

Larry


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## Tree Machine

Mike has a business to run, and a life outside of this site. It's Spring. He's busy. I think he's put a generous amount of time and effort into spearheading chain class. We young grasshoppas must...learn.....patience, give Great Chainmaster time to prepare next lesson. Grasshoppa Axe-man cut Chainmasta some slack. :jester:


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## ROLLACOSTA

Tree Machine said:


> Did you get exceedingly wealthy being a tree guy? That would be a neat trick.



no i made my fortune selling dull chains to the third world..


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## Tree Machine

I believe you, Rolla, because I made my fortune selling them old used bars.

Hey, since the title of this thread is 'Hand-filing' and you sharpen even <u>square-ground</u> by hand, eventually this thread might reference any square-ground, hand-filing references we have active or archived.

I asked a few questions over in 'Chainsaw' and I believe I may begin running square-ground. My entire life of chainsaw working has been in using round-ground chain. I've never run square-ground; had never even <i>considered</i> doing it. Now, in a moments instant, I feel the need to shift, to stir a little change into a lifelong assumption that round-ground chain was the only way to go.

I thought square chisel chain came that way from the factory, and it was some rare, specialty-use chain for racing saws. Apparently, you start with round-ground chain and <i>convert it</i> by using a different shaped file and learning a litlle different filing approach.

Huh.

Never made the connection.


But for now, let's hang with the round-filing discussion.


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## Crofter

Tree Machine. It is the same chain. Just a different grind on it. It can also be converted back and forth either way. Get some factory square, use it, try it, and if you can't square file it or find someone with a grinder, just round file it and never miss a beat.


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## Tree Machine

*A big, HOLY COW on that point !*

Then, you mean

it's not really

Rocket Science?


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## Tree Machine

*The earth moves*

That's really all it is? 

So I could ask my friend Dave Neiger to create one of these for me, and I could just copy the angles to the next round gullet chain.

You guys and girls,

Do you realize how you've boiled the square-file vs round file down to the least common denominator. Now anyone can DO IT. 



Square file, round file. Angled cutter edges, curved cutting edges. It just a change in shape.



I learn the best stuff from you guys. :blush:


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## Stumper

Jim, I think the great difficulty of square filing is overblown but.........I have only played with square a little. It cuts much smoother but does take longer to file. Thus far I haven't really messed up a square filed chain-it may be a real pain to straighten out. Well actually I did mess one up but I just round filed it. I have square on one big saw and intend to keep it square until or unless I decide I can get better performance from it by converting to ol' comfortable round filed.


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## Ax-man

Tree Machine,

When you get good at filing regular square chisel, try this on for size. The bottom picture is the on you want to look at. The top pic shows a hatchet job with a grinder.

Now that Glenn is gone , can we load pictures a little bigger


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## Old Monkey

What book is that?


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## Tree Machine

Awesome !!!






The points come alive. YOW! Square-ground having a round gullet.... and we are OK to cut.


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## Ax-man

Old Monkey said:


> What book is that?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Fundementals of General Tree Work by G.F. Beranek, old and some what outdated as far as tools go, compared to what we have to what we have to work with today, but technigues are sound and haven't changed, lots of hands on info.

Larry


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## Crofter

Ax-man; I believe the first photo is a tooth that has been square ground a number of times without ever cleaning out the ledge, chin, or gullet area. the second photo is the same tooth with the gullet cleaned up with a round file.


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## Tree Machine

I get to ask one of those silly questions: Is a square-ground file actually <i>square</i>? This is an imponderable that has eaten at me for almost hours now.


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## Crofter

Tree Machine; wonder no more. Here is a view of chisel bit files. The "goofy" is kind of a hybrid round/ flat and the triangular is basically that with a facet on the end of each triangle that does the side cutter. The flat style has the sides split into two facets that each each do a side cutter (one left One right)


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## rubberducky

I just eyeball it for the most part. I'm not very old but, I sure do know how to sharpen a chainsaw.


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## Tree Machine

That's a big 10-4 Rubber Ducky, c'mon?

(tolerance to bad humor appreciated)

Rubber Ducky, I'm just bouncing a laugh with you. You'll float with it, eh?

Ohhhhh K. Welcome to the site RD. You gotta tell us your dig on bringing a chain to a magical sharpness.

=========+++++++++==========++++++++++========

Crofter, thank you, Man. You've so cleared the air with your effort. Wow. Square-grinding school is thus completed. It's time the new crop of chain apprentices is let loose into the field.

A lot of awesome information in just a few short pages. My world is a better place because of it.


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## CNYCountry

Tree Machine said:


> Straight smooth fast.



I know this is really an old thread and I certainly don't know it all but the first thing that caught my eye was that cable just to the side of the cut, I would be thinking kickback personally?!?


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## lync

My 2 cents. Husky has a roller guide for $8 in the Sherrill Catalog. 
I bought one. It's the best guide I've ever used, and I feel It beats hand filing. I've tried the file guides like Stihl and Oregon that attach to the file, but they don't help you keep a constant 10 degree angle across the top of the chain, they only control the file depth. They also cover the factory "witness marks" on each tooth. This Husky guide controls the file depth, and the top angle, all you do is file parrellel to the witness mark across the top of the tooth. Since you can see the witness marks its easy to keep the angle consistant.
Like many of you I file every day, sometimes3-4 passes to touch up a dull chain (3-4 tanks of fuel) and some times 20+ passes on each tooth if I hit something in the tree. For 8 bucks its worth a try. Try it you'll like it!!!!! corey


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## Kate Butler

*hand filing??*

Hand filing?? Not me. I bought a Stihl 12 volt electric that clips to your battery. First, I cut the clips off. Then hard-wired the female plug and 4" of HD extension cord to the battery of my truck, fed it through the grille (where it rests until I need it), then spliced the appropriate ends of the remaining portion of the 25" HD extension cord, and now have a PLUG-IN chainsaw sharpener - I can sharpen the saw on the tailgate of the truck, a convenient height, and perfect to really see how it's shaping up.

It rolls up and is carried in the small toolbox that houses all my "small engine" stuff: brushcutter blades, extra line heads, wrenches, sharpening stones for the chainsaw widget above, safety goggles - everything I need in the field to keep everything running. 

Oh, yeah, I permanently attached an embossed label on the female plug that says "12 volt only"


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## Bermie

I hand file all my Stihl saws with a file guide, (BUT I just bought a thingy for the dremel for the days when there are 6 chains waiting to be sharpened) and then go once around the block with the depth gauge guide and the flat file. As someone said earlier, keeping a sharp chain sharp is easier than renovating a nasty one. I find that a new chain can take three or four sharpenings (assuming it hasn't been dinged by something other than a tree) before I need to check the depth gauges. You lot are lucky with chain prices, a new chain here sets me back at least $25 a pop. 

What is of overall importance is understanding that the filing angles, cutter length and depth gauge (raker) settings are all connected. Get one wrong and the whole process starts to get out of balance. That includes how the rest of the saw operates, chain condition has a direct effect on bar wear, sprocket wear, engine wear and operator wear! Not to mention performance.
I notice no-one has mentioned removal of the burrs created from filing, that is also very important, if those burrs are not removed they can peel back the chrome or fold over and you've got a dull chain again.

When I teach saw maintenance, I have a cool set of VERY big chain components (available from Oregon) to use as teaching aids. It really helps, rather than getting people squinting at itty bitty chain bits. I also get trashed chains from the local Stihl dealer, cut them into 8" peices and use them as demos for what kind of damage to look for, then get the students practicing on them before they are let loose on a complete chain. Works pretty well.


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## geofore

*kickback?*



CNYCountry said:


> I know this is really an old thread and I certainly don't know it all but the first thing that caught my eye was that cable just to the side of the cut, I would be thinking kickback personally?!?



If the chain is sharp, it would/could cut right through the cable if you make the mistake of getting too close and hitting it at full speed.


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## belgian

Bermie said:


> I notice no-one has mentioned removal of the burrs created from filing, that is also very important, if those burrs are not removed they can peel back the chrome or fold over and you've got a dull chain again.



And can someone comment on how you do this a decent way ?
thanks in advance


----------



## fishhuntcutwood

OK, my turn. I always file by hand, and if I'm afield, touching up one chain, I'll just sit down on a stump and clean the edges up. If I'm at home, doing more than one chain, or doing a long chain, say 28" or more, I'll use a guide. Obviously, I can do a better, more efficient job with a guide.

As far as burrs, I'll just run the file through once at a slightly different angle, sufficient to take the burr off, but not muck up the edge too noticably.

Jeff


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## Bermie

*burr removal*

The way I was taught to remove burrs was once you've finished all your filing to take a wooden file handle and tap the top plate of each cutter several times, three usually does it, then rub the handle round the 'hook' in the side plate to get those burrs off too. the wood is obviously softer than the steel and gets rid of the burrs just fine. It takes me less than a minute.
If you use the file itself and 'slightly change the angle' haven't you then just undone all your effort to get consistent correct angles?
Don't you guys have to pass some kind of test? With NPTC assessments (British) if you can't sharpen a chain, same cutter lengths, same angles, proper raker settings, correct 'hook' and take off the burrs, you don't pass and you don't get your certificate! Check the standards on www.nptc.org.uk


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## Tree Machine

I have to be completely honest. I remove the burr on the top plate using the file itself. Mind you, it is a _very light_ touch. For you to mess up the angle to any degree, you would have to use enough pressure to actually remove some filings, and you're just not going to do this because it would seem obvious you'd be messing up your freshly filed tooth. Just a little pressure from the top plate, forward toward the bar tip, and slightly down will get it to fall off.

The chrome coating on the tooth is very thin, very brittle and takes the lightest touch to remove it. I've always done this as part of the 'routine' but I can't say I understand really how important it is.

And thanks, Bermie, for bringing up the burr issue. May I ask how your students sharpen and 8" piece of chain? Don't tell me 'with a file', I know that. How is the chain held captive and immobile?


----------



## Wales

When I did my NPTC test my instructor would measure everything to make sure it was all up to scratch. From that experience I now carry around a fencing staple that he taught us to bend / close to the length of the cutters.It makes for a quick tool for checking the cutter length. It may seem over the top , but it reduces vibration which in turn reduces operator fatigue.


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## Tree Machine

That's a good one. The right side teeth often take more abuse, especially if you cut your stumps low to the ground. More wear = more sharpening = shorter teeth = cutting curves.


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## Gypo Logger

You guys sound like a bunch of monkeys trying to file with a rock!
Just kidding.  
Proper filing isn't really that hard to learn, but learning to stay away from abrasive material is.
The duller the chain the harder the operator pushes, causing everything to wear out. Making the chain almost impossible to reserect. Plus the bar is so worn in tolerance by now that it leans over at 45 degrees making straight cuts impossible.
Oh forget it!! You treeclimbers are just a bunch of rock mechanics. LOL
Just kidding.  
John


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## CNYCountry

Tree Machine said:


> I have to be completely honest. I remove the burr on the top plate using the file itself. Mind you, it is a _very light_ touch. For you to mess up the angle to any degree, you would have to use enough pressure to actually remove some filings, and you're just not going to do this because it would seem obvious you'd be messing up your freshly filed tooth. Just a little pressure from the top plate, forward toward the bar tip, and slightly down will get it to fall off.
> 
> The chrome coating on the tooth is very thin, very brittle and takes the lightest touch to remove it. I've always done this as part of the 'routine' but I can't say I understand really how important it is.



I have done what you're talking about with the flat file, but just barely touching it, a tiny tiny light stroke toward the front of the cutter. This is more just touching it, knocking off the "foil" looking burr with a file tooth or two. Other times I have just put it in wood and the burrs seem to come off perfectly by themselves leaving a razor sharp edge, sharp enough to give deep cuts in the fingers if mishandled.. Maybe I could have sharper if I deburred by hand? This is Stihl RS chain that I'm using.

Is it true that the chrome is what actually forms the sharpest part of the cutting edge?


----------



## CNYCountry

Wales said:


> When I did my NPTC test my instructor would measure everything to make sure it was all up to scratch. From that experience I now carry around a fencing staple that he taught us to bend / close to the length of the cutters.It makes for a quick tool for checking the cutter length. It may seem over the top , but it reduces vibration which in turn reduces operator fatigue.



This is a really good idea.


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## CNYCountry

cmf said:


> cutting curves . would come from worn bar. as for cutters being the same size it does not matter . as long as you are. taking your riders down evenly it will work just fine  CMF



Cutting curves as I understand it INITIALLY comes from rocking out a chain, which usually causes damage to one side's complement of the cutters (left OR right cutters). The chain is then sharpened and the damaged side is left with shorter cutters, possibly even with rakers that have not been accordingly adjusted. Then the chain cuts in a curve and wears the bar more on one side than the other. The incorrectly worn bar is the result of cutting bananas and then contributes to it, but is not the original cause.


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## Tree Machine

Hey CMF, welcome to the site. Always good to lead with a joke. If it hadn't been for the smiley, I'd have thought you were serious. This is what we call a troll. What's a 'rider'? A regional or personal term for a 'raker'?

Gypo's nailed the doggie on the noodle. If your chain is kept perpetually sharp, it's amazing how long you can keep the inner top bar rail are from wearing and splaying outward. CNY covered this. Also, I would agree that if the burr was to be left on that it would likely be off in seconds once sunk into the wood. Bernie mentions that it might 'peel' back. Possible, but I don't think likely. Chrome it soo brittle.

As far as chrome being the cuttingest part of the cutting edge, I think it's more for rust prevention, but I honestly really don't know for certain.


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## Gypo Logger

I'm going to make an analogy if I may.
Chain filing is not too far removed from brushing your teeth. We have some that do and we have some that don't.
To be a good filer, you don't simply want to chip off the plaque, you want to floss your teeth.
That's right, floss those teeth just as Chickopski would play his stratovarious, or a surgeon doing micro surgery. Take an interest in it. Become obsessed.
But what's the point of it all if your just and occasional user or one step above Harry the Homeowner?
Don't waste your time, go out and buy a Poulan Wild Thing!
John


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## Tree Machine

I may have to dig out some pictures. I used to have one chain I'd keep whose left side teeth were higher and longer than the right. I would use it to rip short logs and cut banana cradles. I''d sprinkle mushroom spawn in between the halves and drop the top convex onto the bottom concave half. I learned not to use a new bar for this as it wore the inner rail on one side. 

Uneven cutters, if not too uneven, can be compensated for by pressuring the saw the other way during the cut. Small diameter wood, you may not even note a difference, but plow through big diameter wood, it will be most noticable.


----------



## Marky Mark

Here ya go.






If you can get the hang of the file it will feel like it's part of your hand.


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## Gypo Logger

I remember that. That's Rotax Robert at Doug Babcocks place doing the 90 second 'tickle' on my 066 Arctic.
John


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## Tree Machine

If you clamp your bar in a vise, you should be able to have both hands on the files and use SIX at once. You're a hoot Joisey Boy.


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## Gypo Logger

I got a new song for you newbie chain filers, it goes like this:
" I've been working on the chain mang, all the live long day."
" I've been working on the chain mang, cause I rocked it out all day."
" Can't you see the sparks a flyin', Momma where's that stone?"

Now somebody else has to do the next stanza. LOL
I gotta get me a life!
John


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## Tree Machine

"Can't figger out a better way of filing?
Newbie go on home."

Man, Gypo, get a life, Man! We're trying to get everyone up to speed, cutting sharp, straight and fast. That did not even _resemble_ a contribution.

Sorry about the newbie go on home comment. That sounded condescending and I'm a big supporter of newbs. Unlike some of the old timers who might be stuck in their ways, the newbs are like pliable lumps of clay. To them, almost everything is new. They're open to new ideas and new ways of doing things. I think newbs are the tomorrow of Arboriculture. I have a song....

Everybody Newbies are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they posess inside
Give them a sense of pride
To make it easier
Let the Noobie's laughter remind us how it used to be...

AUGGGHHHH! I can't believe I'm slaughtering this perfectly good thread! I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Bad Tree Machine, Bad!

I'm going to try to make it up to you by actually contributing something of value that has to do with the topic of this thread, which is 'Hand Filing'. I need to go out to my truck and take a couple pictures, so you sit right there, OK?


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## fishhuntcutwood

Tree Machine said:


> I have to be completely honest. I remove the burr on the top plate using the file itself. Mind you, it is a _very light_ touch. For you to mess up the angle to any degree, you would have to use enough pressure to actually remove some filings, and you're just not going to do this because it would seem obvious you'd be messing up your freshly filed tooth. Just a little pressure from the top plate, forward toward the bar tip, and slightly down will get it to fall off.



Same here.

And I'm not a pro, I'm just a guy that works with a gypo logger (not THE Gypo Logger) buddy of mine off and on, so there's no certification for me. Heck, there's not even any insurance for me!

Jeff


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Tree Machine, I hope your injury is coming along well and that your back in the saddle soon.

Being a newbie is actually the best part of any experience, but what is the definition of a newbie?
I guess that would be when we feel like an instructer as opposed to the pupil.
Which means that even the newbies here already know 10x what most of their friends and peers know.
When I am watching Fales , Cahoon, Ed or Art Martin then I am definately the pupil.
So I guess it comes down to knowing our place and when to be the puplil and when to be the teacher.
Isn't there a famous saying about being somewhere for the first time?
John


----------



## Tree Machine

Hey FishHunt, I would think being able to sharpen a chain would be a major asset to a Gypo.

As far as THE Gypo, hey thanks for the concern. I'm not walking yet, which is why I'm on the computer here at AS all day....which makes me wonder why the heck are YOU not out in the woods? OK, I'm not here to hassle anyone, I promised a contribution.

As far as noobs and pupils and puplils and teachers (just hasslin ya, Gypo), I believe I stated somewhere in the last 13 pages that I thought EVERYONE could become an expert hand sharpener in a short time. As you said earlier, there's very little to it, just paying attention to detail and using proper technique.

We've gone over proper technique, but I still have to hold firm that one of the most important things to do is to first keep the saw held firm. For me, that usually looks like this:


----------



## Tree Machine

This allows the chainsaw to not move. You can engage the chainbrake to keep the chain from moving left/right, so all that can possibly move it the tooth itself, a minor amount due to a bit of wobble of the drive link down in the guide rail. You can keep BOTH hands on the file, one on the handle, one on the file tip. This gives you precision control and you can work on finessing your technique.

This next pic, we've all seen these:


----------



## Tree Machine

Suh-weet CMF.

I added a handle on that one for better crankability. These are useful for when you happen to have a stump around. I decided I needed on right on my truck where I work on my saws. I drilled a couple pilot holes in my wood benchtop, whacked it in, clamped my saw into it and the first filing the stump vise popped tight out of the holes. It was seemingly really convenient, except it didn't work. I had to try something else.

These pics are of a crude first-try prototype, so they're ugly. However, the idea works remarkably well. The angle iron is welded to the stump vise.

I would really like to bring this idea to the manufacturer, but I don't speak Italian. Why wasn't this idea drummed up long ago, a benchtop version of the stump vise?


----------



## fishhuntcutwood

Tree Machine said:


> Hey FishHunt, I would think being able to sharpen a chain would be a major asset to a Gypo.



It is, and I can. All I was saying is that there's no test for me to pass for certification or anything like that. I've never had to have my sharpening QA'd.

Jeff


----------



## Gypo Logger

Hi woodticks, what I think we have here is a failure to discuss the scientific aspects of the cutter itself. 

The working corner, as you know, is the juncture of the FIRST areas of the sideplate and topplate to contact the wood. Just as there is a side lead on the sideplate and a front lead on the topplate, there is also a top lead on the sideplate. These are working clearances built in to the tooth to prevent binding that would inhibit effective "biting" into the wood fiber. Sooo... the leading edges of these "leads" is the working corner, the area of metal on the outside of the tooth actually meant to touch wood in the cut. 

So as important as it is that the sideplate be adequately sharp and properly angled top to bottom, the critical length of the sideplate is only minutely longer than the combined thickness of the topplate and thickness of chips as determined by the depth gauge clearance. capiche? 

The working corner does about 90% of the actual work. This can easily be proven by considering what happens when you cut a small amount of grit laden bark that ever so slightly peens the point of the working corner. Cutting efficiency goes down, in fact how do you determine if a chain is dull by looking only at the chain? The working corner is not crisp. 

An example would be timed cuts between a properly square filed chain with the corner bisected versus an improperly filed corner that does not bisect this outside angle. There is an appreciable difference in cut times. 

Another point possibly worthy of pondering is that a chain with too much hook is grabby because the end grain is not fully severed before the front lead is diminished by forward movement of the chain through the cut, whereas a tooth without enough hook is smoother but does not cut well because it does not allow the topplate to lift the chip in order to be severed. Both angles are crucial, only the trailing edges of the sideplate and topplate are along for the ride. 

Speaking of grinding. I`ve found that if I am "pecking" the wheel into the tooth, I`m probably trying to take too heavy of a cut. I know through experimentation and observation that pecking often results in blued teeth, gouged cutting faces on the wheel(damaged profile), and increased variation of tooth angles and length between teeth. Very light, consistent wheel pressure against the tooth is the way to go, multiple passes are often necessary. 

Maybe you would also like to inform your TH and TB friends that frequent dressing of the wheel not only prevents wheel loading, but also maintains wheel profile and exposes new sharp crystals that quickly cut the metal rather than burnish it which imparts unnecessary heat to the tooth. Sharpening the tooth and grinding the gullets are also two steps, not to be done all at once. 
Hope this helps,
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

Nice picture of the cutter there CMF.
The picture below more attaquately portrays the innner workings of the top/sideplate relationship and it's integral parts.
The sideplate severs the chip while the top plate curls the chip, thus facilitating the effective ejection of the now 'springy' fibre which literaly bounces out of the kerf if the gullets have been cleaned out correctly, unlike the photo which is fresh off the grinder and never saw no vegetated matter in it's life before.
You see the whole thing is functionality based, where all cutters are happily & effortlessly singing along within the wood fibre
John


----------



## Tree Machine

You're a genus, a GENUS I tell you. You're way beyond a specie.

I love this information. It just makes you look at a chain differently. It makes you think about a chain in slow motion and what it's doing.

Still you don't need to know anything about the scientific aspects to be able to sharpen a chain properly. By analogy it would be like knowing the inner workings of an internal combustion engine to be able to drive a tree truck. 

Personally, I appreciate very much the time you took to share that Mr.Gypo. A couple points there are new to me.

I have a question....? Does anyone hand sharpen chains that are NOT on the chainsaw? How is the chain held captive? Just curious.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

As I said before, just when you think you are pretty good, along comes someone even better. 
Gypo's post and picture show just how far he's come since that goofy hook picture of his I used to illustrate too much hook.
My only contention with his post, is his definition of the working corner. When I think of a corner, it is just that, the point. He includes the entire top portion of the side plate in his definition of the corner. I'm no expert on definitions, or proper chain nomenclature, but by combining the side plate to the working corner, it limits detailed discussion of the side plate.
Gypo argued eloquently over at GF, the working corner does most of the work. In this post I argue the side plate does, not the top plate. Hence only half the working corner.


----------



## jokers

Mike Maas said:


> As I said before, just when you think you are pretty good, along comes someone even better.
> Gypo's post and picture show just how far he's come since that goofy hook picture of his I used to illustrate too much hook.
> My only contention with his post, is his definition of the working corner. When I think of a corner, it is just that, the point. He includes the entire top portion of the side plate in his definition of the corner. I'm no expert on definitions, or proper chain nomenclature, but by combining the side plate to the working corner, it limits detailed discussion of the side plate.
> Gypo argued eloquently over at GF, the working corner does most of the work. In this post I argue the side plate does, not the top plate. Hence only half the working corner.



Hi Mike,

At what point does the working corner become the sideplate and can the corner exist independently of the sideplate? Can the sideplate properly exist without the working corner? What feature of the sideplate causes the fiber to lift initially so that it may be severed crossgrain? The relationships are so interdependent that I have to agree with Gypo`s elegant summation of cutter theory.

Russ


----------



## kf_tree

Tree Machine said:


> I have a question....? Does anyone hand sharpen chains that are NOT on the chainsaw? How is the chain held captive? Just curious.



oregon used to make a contraption that locked in a vice. it had rollers on each end and it was 2 piece so it could expand and contarct for differnt size loops. i saw one on ebay recently.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Hi Mike, the reason for that huge hook is so that it has a larger capicity to accomidate the chips that are 'rolled' into a springy coil by the top plate.
This accumulation of springs, particularly hardwood is the reason for the huge rooster tails that are evident when we do an upcut, such as in the picture below.
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

kf_tree said:


> orgegon used to make a contraption that locked in a vice. it had rollers on each end and it was 2 piece so it could expand and contarct for differnt size loops. i saw one on ebay recently.



I wish I had of known that one was on Ebay, I have been looking for one of those chain vises.
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

jokers said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> At what point does the working corner become the sideplate and can the corner exist independently of the sideplate? Can the sideplate properly exist without the working corner? What feature of the sideplate causes the fiber to lift initially so that it may be severed crossgrain? The relationships are so interdependent that I have to agree with Gypo`s elegant summation of cutter theory.
> 
> Russ


 Hi Russ, glad you liked 'my' thesis on chain. It reminds me of the chainoil discussion, just not as spirited though.  
John


----------



## kf_tree

this was done by hand with a round file.......this chain has even been in the wood already.


----------



## Bermie

*Burrs and cutter length*

OK, several replies to make here:

8' pieces of practice chain are held in a bench vice, clamp just the drive links, no problem.  

The chrome is there to provide a hard surface, and it CAN peel back. Look for what look like tiny black 'streaks' coming back from the edge of the top plate, that is where the chrome has peeled away and exposed the steel underneath.  
I carry a cheap set of calipers to measure cutter length and a bit of staple wire for when they fall out of the bag and get lost on the ground! 

Cutter length is a contributor to uneven bar wear, a chain with short, long, short, long, cutters will cut curved, the chain will press more on one side than the other, wearing down both the top and inside of the rail. Not to mention the underside of tie straps, drive link gauge etc.
To suggest tipping the saw the other way to compensate for uneven cutting doesn't make long term sense, you shouldn't have to fight your saw! 

OK


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

jokers said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> At what point does the working corner become the side plate and can the corner exist independently of the side plate? Can the side plate properly exist without the working corner?


We don't disagree on what's going on, you just clump both plates together and call them the working corner. Because the two different plate serve two completely different functions, why lump them together?
Yes, the side plate can exist without the top plate. It would still cut the fiber, it just wouldn't peel it out and remove the chip, that's the job of the top plate.




jokers said:


> What feature of the side plate causes the fiber to lift initially so that it may be severed cross grain?


 The side plate cuts first, then is lifted out by the top plate, at least on a cutter like the one Crofter and Gypo posted. 
With the old joke picture of too much hook, the top plate would be tearing the fibers apart before the side plate got near them. This is the drag you would feel if you ran a chain with that much hook. This drag is what guy sometimes think is making their saw cut really fast because it's pulling so hard.


jokers said:


> The relationships are so interdependent that I have to agree with Gypo`s elegant summation of cutter theory.
> 
> Russ



It seems that your's and Gypo's relationship is so close you are starting to sound like each other. I'm sometimes astounded by how well he writes when he puts his mind to it.
I agree on his theory, but not the semantics.


----------



## jokers

Mike Maas said:


> We don't disagree on what's going on, you just clump both plates together and call them the working corner. Because the two different plate serve two completely different functions, why lump them together?



Well what are you saying Mike, that the working corner doesn`t exist and that it`s not a key, if not the primary component of the tooth?



Mike Maas said:


> Yes, the side plate can exist without the top plate. It would still cut the fiber, it just wouldn't peel it out and remove the chip, that's the job of the top plate.



Well wouldn`t that scenario be woefully inefficient? Hand saws use the equivalent of sideplates only, with set of course, because they are limited by the amount of force that the average person can exert on them. Bandsaw blades don`t count because they are not durable enough for handheld use in the way that a chainsaw is used.This last statement of yours is a fine example of semantics.




Mike Maas said:


> The side plate cuts first, then is lifted out by the top plate, at least on a cutter like the one Crofter and Gypo posted.



Mike, given that the vertical terminus of the sideplate is also the horizontal terminus of the topplate, how can you say that the sideplate cuts first? Yes I know that is what Madsen`s site says. It`s also not the only technical inaccuracy on their site. If I were to be benevolent I could superficially agree with that statement, but riddle me this Mike, how does this statement jive with your wood chisel example? It contradicts it.




Mike Maas said:


> With the old joke picture of too much hook, the top plate would be tearing the fibers apart before the side plate got near them. This is the drag you would feel if you ran a chain with that much hook. This drag is what guy sometimes think is making their saw cut really fast because it's pulling so hard.



You and I agree on this one.




Mike Maas said:


> It seems that your's and Gypo's relationship is so close you are starting to sound like each other. I'm sometimes astounded by how well he writes when he puts his mind to it.
> I agree on his theory, but not the semantics.



Gypo really didn`t recently go to the Yukon, in reality he had slipped into an all girls finishing school for a couple of months hoping to meet some twentysomething hotties. He won`t say how he made out, but he also mentioned that he stayed in a Holiday Inn on the way home. At any rate, he`s been a changed man recently.

We could go on arguing our perspectives, but it really is semantics.

Later, Russ


----------



## geofore

*angle iron?*



Tree Machine said:


> Suh-weet CMF.
> 
> I added a handle on that one for better crankability. These are useful for when you happen to have a stump around. I decided I needed on right on my truck where I work on my saws. I drilled a couple pilot holes in my wood benchtop, whacked it in, clamped my saw into it and the first filing the stump vise popped tight out of the holes. It was seemingly really convenient, except it didn't work. I had to try something else.
> 
> These pics are of a crude first-try prototype, so they're ugly. However, the idea works remarkably well. The angle iron is welded to the stump vise.
> 
> I would really like to bring this idea to the manufacturer, but I don't speak Italian. Why wasn't this idea drummed up long ago, a benchtop version of the stump vise?


 
So you used pieces of an old bed rail for your angle iron. I weld up old bed frames to make shelves to store saws on. I weld 4" wheels on them so I can wheel them around the garage/shop and use 3/4" plywood for the shelves themself and they will hold more than a ton of stuff and still wheel around easily.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Hi Russ, the girls gave me a makeover at the finishing school in exchange for some filing lessons.
John


----------



## a_lopa

fresh files and a file-o-plate do me,a vice is a must.takes me no time to get a rocked out p.o.s back to good,i dont like swapping chains from the bar and sprocket.if you cant sharpen/drop rakers on a 25" bar in 5 minutes you shouldnt be in the buisness,once a chain goes on a saw it should only come off when its throw away time.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

If you rock out a new chain, to where the corner is rounded of half way back, there is no way you're going to file a 1/4 inch of metal off each tooth of a 25 inch chain and then do the rakers, in 5 minutes. 
To just touch up a slightly dull chain, sure, 5 minutes, no problem. You might even be able to get the rakes done in that time.

As for not: blowing out the clutch and chain brake, flipping the bar, inspecting the rim and chain catcher, until the chain is wore out, that's bad advise. The exception is, if you are running into crap all the time and your chains are only lasting a day or two. From what I know about you, you're probably running the tip of your saw in the dirt like it was a trencher, all day long. So what you said makes sense.


----------



## stehansen

I have a vise mounted on the front bumper of my bucket truck. I sometimes use a guage but most often just go it freehand. I have tried my local saw shop to sharpen chains; however, they most often have the chain cutting too aggressively and the saw does not cut smoothly and jumps.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Part of the problem with rocking out is that the sideplate gets so severely abraided that the side of the raker hits the wood before the working corner does. Mainly because there is no working corner left. I think on the average there is only 20 thou. between the side of the cutter and the side of the raker. Once this clearance is gone then it's your rakers that will be doing the cutting.
The following picture shows some deliberate abrasion of the sideplate in order for all cutters to have exactly the same clearance between sideplate and side of raker.
John




John


----------



## Tree Machine

Nice pic, Gypo. Are you shooting pictures through a microscope.

I went on site yesterday with an apprentice to 'guide' him through his most technical job to date. I was confined to a reclining lawn chair and my job was purely instructional. It was killin me, like a kid being grounded looking out the window at the activities on the playground.

I had loaned him my 395 last week and yesterday when it came time to dice up big wood he told me, sheepishly, "uh, the chain's kinda dull". He had rocked it out, or more correctly, chainlink-fenced it out.

I went ahead and sharpened it for him, but had to do so without securing the bar in a vice. This reinforced, once again, my thought that if you're having trouble sharpening a chain it's because you're doing it like I did yesterday - One hand on the bar to keep the unit steady, one hand on the file handle, or worse, just holding the tang. One-handed filing not only gives poor control but it torques your wrist unnaturally and takes a lot longer. The process is awkward and remves the ease with which it can be done, which removes much of the joy involved in bringing a chain back up to 100%. I think it is very difficult to sharpen a chain both well and quickly without the saw and bar secured.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Hi TM, for any filing that requires "elbow grease", I think the saw should be in a fixed situation such as a vise as you mentioned since severe abrasive damage requires both hands and at least one new file to fix.
However in the field a simple touch up can be made easily with one hand on the file and the other holding the cutter.
It's extremely sacreligious to ruin a good chain but it happens, just as hitting rocks with garden tractor.
Any real bad damage should be fixed with a grinder, since a grinding wheel can do the job of several doz. boxes of files.
John


----------



## P_woozel

Pretty beaky looking.


----------



## Gypo Logger

TM, the picture was taken with a 105 mm Nikon closeup lens on a Nikon D70 body. This lens is incredible as it is also a great portrait lens as well as a telephoto lens.
The closeups are a little tricky since depth of field is limited in low light situations, so I use all manual settings as far as F stop, shutter speed and focus.
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

P_woozel said:


> Pretty beaky looking.



Hi P woozel the stoning of the cutter actually creates the beak which is very desireable, however we are talking race chain here and the pictures are a result of my experiments. The beak is almost invisible to the naked eye.


----------



## Tree Machine

Great images! The diverse talents of the Arboristsite members never ceases to amaze me. Saw sharpeners, photographers,hair dressers, you're all WILD !


----------



## Schultzz

I never was consistently accurate with free-hand filing. I either get a buddy to file it (35 years cutting timber in the field), or I have my Stihl dealer grind it. Only dealer that makes it like a new chain without taking too much off. He charges $6.00. I can cut all day with it if I don't hit dirt or embedded objects. I usually end up sharpening one side too much or one bit too much so it grabs. The secret is too wear your reading glasses and really look at what you're doing. I think I must need stronger glasses.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

Gypo, Those are fantastic photographs. 
In that one shot, you can see the chrome sliced through at an angle and tell just how thick it is. Just amazing.
I though I could get good close ups with my QX1, but your's are much more better.


----------



## 046

nice photos!!! really see details..


----------



## a_lopa

Mike Maas said:


> From what I know about you, you're probably running the tip of your saw in the dirt like it was a trencher, all day long. So what you said makes sense.




not likely,but no chain goes in the shop it all gets handfiled,i have a carlton file plate,bar cleaner and valorbe bar dresser in every vehicle and a vice on the chipper.as soon as a file dulls its thrown.

you would be suprised how little i spend on chains to turnover what i do,ashtray money.

do you know how to use a file-o-plate i bet alot of people wouldnt.


----------



## Tree Machine

I would like to know Mr Aussie Lopa, not only how to use a file-o-plate, but also what the heck IS a file-o-plate? I've only ever done freehand, just a vise, a file and a file handle.

For so many years I've thought I knew a thing or two about chain sharpening; now I'm feeling like I only know just a thing.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

It's just a little tin plate with a hole, that you set over the raker. The front sits on the chain, the back sits on the cutter, the raker sticks up through the hole. You file off what sticks out. 
It work differently than most raker gages because it lowers the raker progressively more, as the cutter gets smaller. A new cutter will leave the raker at about .025, while with a cutter that is almost filed off, it will set the raker at about .035.
Because of the mechanics of a cutter, you want this, to keep the cutter doing the same thing.


----------



## Tree Machine

Cool. Thanks, Mike.


----------



## Tree Machine

*storing files*

I just found a couple more pictures of my file arrangement that might help some guys. The first couple are two ways I store files. The WORST way you can store a file is tossed into a tool box amongst other metal tools and hardware. Actually, maybe the more worst place to store a file is where it can get wet, because high-carbon steel rusts really fast and the sharp working edge of the file is the first to go.

The last picture is how I store boxes of files. I've gotten a lot of positive remarks on this simple concept. Using a piece of 3/4" plywood (I actually used 1" thick hackberry) lay the file boxes on the wood. Trace around them with a pencil. Cut the wood out to create the inserts and use any cord or bungee to hold them in.

It's nice to have files kept organized, esential to keep em dry.


----------



## a_lopa

Tree Machine said:


> I would like to know Mr Aussie Lopa, not only how to use a file-o-plate, but also what the heck IS a file-o-plate? I've only ever done freehand, just a vise, a file and a file handle.
> 
> For so many years I've thought I knew a thing or two about chain sharpening; now I'm feeling like I only know just a thing.



there great,i actually taught a logger guy the other week who was working for me,that way i got all my big saws sharpened on his last day before going back to the coups.there the most dust collecting item in the saw shop and the key ingredient if your cutting low for stump removal.of course this is IMO.

ill run a course tommorow


----------



## a_lopa

ill tell you the holy grail of tree removals with overhanging limbs/trees,its that simple i need to tell someone T/M but your sworn to secrecy for LIFE,do you beleive me??


----------



## Tree Machine

I believe you. I'll hold your secret until my grave, and beyond. I won't even tell God. Go ahead, my good friend. Spill the beans.


----------



## a_lopa

Tree Machine said:


> I believe you. I'll hold your secret until my grave, and beyond. I won't even tell God. Go ahead, my good friend. Spill the beans.




im just thinking about the consequences,you couldnt beleive me, but i think you just might.


----------



## Tree Machine

Lopa, the mystery is killin me. Ya got the hair standing up on my back. You must throw down, man. You must throw down.


----------



## a_lopa

i forgot to say i only use the file-o-plate on the rakers.


----------



## Tree Machine

Ahhhhh, wisdom received and acknowledged.


----------



## kf_tree

Gypo Logger said:


> I wish I had of known that one was on Ebay, I have been looking for one of those chain vises.
> John



here's the one i missed last night.......i guess i'll need to bid higher next time. they look pretty simple to make though. maybe this winter i'll just make one.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7716589502&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEDW:IT&rd=1


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## Ax-man

I'm with you KF, I would not have paid 44 plus ship, I'd make one first.

Larry


----------



## Tree Machine

*Handy device*

You can make one out of a stainless steel hinge, very simply. Sometimes its really nice to be able to sharpen a chain that's not on a chainsaw.


----------



## darkstar

tree machine you were givin the low down out of a lawn chair ? Now i want a pic of that action funny ger err done funny .... sound like you are bout ready to climb one legged ... dont do it ...


----------



## Tree Machine

I really reach for the most basic, boiled-down simple approach, don't I? Thanks, Dan. A little strip of rubber along the hinge joint forces the jaw open. The bolts keep the jaws from opening too far. They only need to open and close a half a millimeter.

Hey Dark, I'm a lawn chair commentator at the moment, but my physical therapist thinks I could _possibly_ be in the footlock competition at TCI Expo, which is encouraging, but possibly not very smart. Dude with a broken leg smokin everyone on vertical ascent. It would shrink a lot of egos. I'm not sure I want to bring that.


----------



## kf_tree

what i used to do is mount a bar in a vise with the chain looped down and hang 2 10lb weights on the chain with a bungee cord.


----------



## fmueller

Anybody use that Sharpforce file guide? It has a flat file for the raker and the round one for the cutter on one assembly. Ya do one side then take the files out and turn em around to do the other. You can find them on the Husky website.


----------



## Tree Machine

*love simplicity*



kf_tree said:


> what i used to do is mount a bar in a vise with the chain looped down and hang 2 10lb weights on the chain with a bungee cord.


I think that's a really good idea. I wonder about mounting a shackle, a fat pin and a 8-pin drive sprocket (envision a pulley), and hang the weight from that.

That could be a cool, simple device, you throw an old bar in a vise and you are very, very set up to sharpen chains properly, on or off the saw. That's why it's very good to have a vise mounted to your chipper or truck. You are a high-tech chain shop with low-tech amenities.


----------



## timberwolf

As long as the chain is in a bar, it will not matter how much weight is pulling it down, the chain can still move sideways and roll over in the bar groove. I think you need to clamp it before you can get good consistency and be able to put file pressure to it.


----------



## Tree Machine

Agreed. The chain need to be kept from moving at all, forward-backward, or side to side. This gives you complete control of your file, with no variables of chain movement.


----------



## 046

nice hinge filing jig!

I'm making one soon I run into a hinge that long


----------



## geofore

Ask for a Piano hinge if you go looking. I've got a 4'er out in the shop, stainless steel, I don't remember what job it was bought for. We used about a 100' of the stainless Piano hinges.


----------



## Gypo Logger

kf_tree said:


> here's the one i missed last night.......i guess i'll need to bid higher next time. they look pretty simple to make though. maybe this winter i'll just make one.
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7716589502&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEDW:IT&rd=1



Ken, that was me, I'm sunlover3. The guy wanted 48$ on top of the 44$ just to ship it to Canada, so I had it shipped to Jokers. I mean it must weigh a ton.
I'll sell it to you for 150$ LOL
John


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Sniper!!! I'll give you $200


----------



## Gypo Logger

Dennis, I'll trade for another oneof those thinned out chains.
John


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

How about I send you 2 piano hinges and you send me the filing jig!


----------



## Tree Machine

If you have to drill stainless steel, know that it's hard, hard stuff. I dulled a cobalt bit putting the two holes through.

The cam levers on Gypo's jig is the way to go to squeeze the jaws together.

I'm surprised these are not more popular. They're very handy. Gypo's is the first I've ever seen.


----------



## Gypo Logger

From the pictures it looks pretty small, but in real life it's at least 20" long which makes it good for stoning cutters as well. It's at Jokers now so I will be able to show KF tree how it's made and what I sniped him out of.
I better **** though or he might just get to Jokers first.
LOL
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

Dennis Cahoon said:


> How about I send you 2 piano hinges and you send me the filing jig!


 Ok, but only if you send me another one of those Hatchet Jack Racing Chain Kits.
John


----------



## Thor's Hammer

Gypo Logger said:


> Ken, that was me, I'm sunlover3. The guy wanted 48$ on top of the 44$ just to ship it to Canada, so I had it shipped to Jokers. I mean it must weigh a ton.
> I'll sell it to you for 150$ LOL
> John



I have one of those gathering dust here. If anyone wants to pay shipping from the UK, they can have it....


----------



## kf_tree

Thor's Hammer said:


> I have one of those gathering dust here. If anyone wants to pay shipping from the UK, they can have it....




do you have any idea what it would cost to ship to new york? can you post a pic. if you post a weight i can look up shipping, just tell me what the best carrier is.

thanks


----------



## Thor's Hammer

Its identical to the one john's just bought. I'll ask UPS tomorrow.


----------



## Thor's Hammer

KF-
just checked. The vise is an oregon vise, with 2 camming clamps, and a guide roller at each end. Its hardly been used, and still looks new. will post a pic in next few days.
However, shipping is £35 stirling, or about $60. If you want, I shall be over in michigan and idaho in the next few weeks, I'll pop it in my suitcase and post it over there.


----------



## kf_tree

thor's hammer

i'd be fine with paying 60.00 for it, i can't see you going through the trouble of putting it in your suit case. i'll check with the post office here and see if a international money order is good in the uk. ok

ken


----------



## Gypo Logger

Hey Ken, that Thor's Hammer is a good guy, he could have had us all fighting over it!
I think mines better though, it has three clamps. lol
John


----------



## wradman

i've always hand filed, when i tried ground chain i found the wheel would sometimes creat hot spot that would make the chain hard to handfile after i'm to far in the bush most times to consider ground chain i would say if your going to grind a chain you should probably grind the whole chain. i also found the ground chain didnt;' cut as well , maybee it was the operator but i really like my chain to cut when i get a new chain i only fall about 1/2 dozen trees or so then i file it . It takes about 2 files before you can get a new chain cutting descent.I sometimes use a raker gauge when i get in wood 3ft plus consistently , it keeps the saw cutting smoother a little more consistantly .


----------



## rebelman

I cut large stumps to ground level several times a week. When your check depends on finishing the stump off, you get good enough at freehand. I have a "stool box". You take the lid off and sit on it, the handle has a slot for holding the bar tip steady. Freehand, always.


----------



## BigJohn

Why not put it on the saw and sharpen it? That's where it's gonna go anyway. Why did the dull chain come off the saw in the first place? Why wasn't it just sharpened on the saw? Is it really quicker to change the chain than to sharpen it? Your gonna sharpen it anyway sooner or later.


----------



## jkrueger

*BadJohn*



BigJohn said:


> Why not put it on the saw and sharpen it? That's where it's gonna go anyway. Why did the dull chain come off the saw in the first place? Why wasn't it just sharpened on the saw? Is it really quicker to change the chain than to sharpen it? Your gonna sharpen it anyway sooner or later.



John,

At your rate of pay I'd better not catch you sharpening a chain. Get the dull one off and put a sharp one on. I send a pack out to get sharpened and it is not a big deal. The lost man hours for an ace climber or even an ace ground person to do this is silly

OK, in a pinch and no sharp chains, sure, you'd better know how to do it right.

John how are your saddle sores coming along?

Jack


----------



## skwerl

jkrueger said:


> John,
> 
> At your rate of pay I'd better not catch you sharpening a chain. Get the dull one off and put a sharp one on. I send a pack out to get sharpened and it is not a big deal. The lost man hours for an ace climber or even an ace ground person to do this is silly
> 
> OK, in a pinch and no sharp chains, sure, you'd better know how to do it right.
> 
> John how are your saddle sores coming along?
> 
> Jack


Sorry Jack but it sounds like you aren't very skilled with a chainsaw. I laugh at people who swap chains instead of filing them, you are the one wasting time. And actually, I carry 6 saws on my truck (for my personal use only, I'm a freelance so groundsmen use their employer's saws) and if I hit something bad I will simply swap saws. But it only takes a minute or two to touch up a chain if you're good with a file. 

Just because you aren't as good as John in certain skills is no reason to criticize him for doing what he does well.


----------



## jkrueger

skwerl said:


> Sorry Jack but it sounds like you aren't very skilled with a chainsaw. I laugh at people who swap chains instead of filing them, you are the one wasting time. And actually, I carry 6 saws on my truck (for my personal use only, I'm a freelance so groundsmen use their employer's saws) and if I hit something bad I will simply swap saws. But it only takes a minute or two to touch up a chain if you're good with a file.
> 
> Just because you aren't as good as John in certain skills is no reason to criticize him for doing what he does well.



Hahah, your jumping the gun here, I'm very good at et'al and I was poking John for some of the job stuff we have done together. 
Jack


----------



## wradman

*filling*

wow if you can file a 3/8 with a twenty eight inch bar with a full house chain, and do a good job, in one or two minutes , your a good man!


----------



## skwerl

wradman said:


> wow if you can file a 3/8 with a twenty eight inch bar with a full house chain, and do a good job, in one or two minutes , your a good man!


So, you climb and trim while carrying a saw with a 28" bar and full chisel chain? Or is that the saw you use to limb up the stuff for the chipper?

And as a matter of fact, I had to put the 28" bar on one of my 372's today for a stump cut. I hit metal about halfway through and it took me about 8-9 minutes to resharpen the chain. 9-10 strokes on each tooth with a new file. Yes, I had to take a bit off the teeth. Must have been a good 5 minutes longer than a quickie touchup. 

How long does it take you to touch up the chain on a 200T with 14" bar? It takes me less than 2 minutes.


----------



## Tree Machine

I've found in the past that swapping chains instead of sharpening the one on the saw eventually left me with a rack of dull chains in need of filing. Yea, that's what I want to do in my off time, catch up on filing chains. Not my idea of relaxation, though I don't mind (actually _like_) doing it, just as long as it's only one or two.


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## 046

only takes me 2-3 minutes to touch up my 335

much quicker than changing out a chain.


----------



## clearance

Yes, it was I who started this thread, thank you, thank you, hold the applause. Anyone who runs a full house chain on a saw with a 28" bar that may see problems, rocks, objects in res. trees, etc. is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, with all due respect. 8-9 minutes to sharpen a rocked out full house 28" chain, even with a new file, properly? And the rakers as well, 9 strokes, musta needed the rakers done too, yeah right. I only change if it rocked out real good, get to clean the bar as well, mostly just do it then and there. Yes it takes just a few minutes to put an edge on my ms200, 16" bar, but it ain't really ever dull to begin with. Sharpened more than a few (dozen, hundreds?) chains all the way to nothing over the years, I don't care who ya are, it takes a little time to do it right.


----------



## wradman

*chain*

lol yep that's good clarity ,look like a good oportunity for an arguement lol,
just had to put in my 2 cents. althought it still takes me 10 minutes to file my 335 because i can't see the teeth very well and i'm to stubborn to get glasses.


----------



## Chronic1

I do it by eye and hand. Sharp sharp sharp. And they cut straight,


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## BigJohn

I do it by eye. What can you feel? First you shouldn't hammer your chains so bad that you should need to change it out. Yeah it happens but it better not be happing every day and especially not all day long. I would say 5 times a year. I could see if you drank a 30 pack and went to cutting you would be little numb and find you way to cut through a granite grave marker. 

When it comes to sharpening a chain, no time like the present. A sharp chain is one of those small details that gets over looked. Keeping a saw sharp is over looked. Being carefull not to dull the chain is over looked. Maintaining a sharp chain and properly tensioned chain is the only way to run. A dull chain wears on the bar, a loose chain wears on the bar. A saw that wont cut wears on my nerves :angry2:


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## mike385

I am by no means an arborist, but I am a professional faller. I have had to sharpen a chain at least five times on a really pain in that butt tree. Every time I sharpened it, I hit something else. I tried moving up the stump, down the stump, and everything in between. I finally just said the heck with it and got the skidder man to pull it over. It was a clearcut. 
\
Anyway all I wanted to say is that it happens, not often but it happens.


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## SCE1966

Takes me about 6-7 minutes to sharpen a climbing saw with 14 inch bar. If there is an idle moment for the groundman I have them file the chains that need it. I dont take a chain off the saw if I can avoid it, we grind the chains that hit the dirt or hidden objects in the tree. Never seems to come back as sharp though. Doing removals I keep the chain touched up by hand.


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## Gypo Logger

One of the biggest things that is overlooked that would make an otherwise sharp cutting edge cut infinatly better, is to clean out the gullet.
Most filers gang up too much on the cutter itself.
Try cleaning the gullet out and you will double the ease with which your chain will cut, especially on half used chain. Chain with big gullets cuts just like chain with high rakers.
Most filers allow the gullet to get increasingly larger to where there is very limited chip clearance rendering the chain very ineffective.
The operator, in fustration pushes harder, cutting short the life of the chain, bar and saw, not to mention productivity and the feeling that you know what you're doing.
Don't be cheap about buying files. You can't have too many files.

John


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## geofore

*gullet*

Gypo,
Show them a pic side by side of a cutter that has been dogboned and one that has been sharpened but the gullet hasn't been removed. It'll give the new guys something to think about because I don't think they have a clue when you say clean out the gullet.


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## Gypo Logger

geofore said:


> Gypo,
> Show them a pic side by side of a cutter that has been dogboned and one that has been sharpened but the gullet hasn't been removed. It'll give the new guys something to think about because I don't think they have a clue when you say clean out the gullet.


 Here's a pic that might help.
The one on the left has a huge gullet that should have been taken out progressively with regular filing. The one on the right has the gullet cleaned out.
John


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## Tree Machine

Gol Dang ! you take good photos, Gypo. That image there, is _art_. You are a frigggin 'mazing! That photo belongs in the Smithsonian.


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## Tree Machine

I mean, _ serious_, just look at the photo, it totally gets what your point is. That picture is a full 1,000 words.


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## geofore

*gullets2*

Tree Machine, when you get done slobbering all over the screen back off a bit and let the new guys see it. That's exactly the pics I wanted to see. Round filed with gullet in place and square filed with gullet removed. Most homeowners, newbies and weekend warriors round file their chain, square or round, leaving the gullet in place. They don't know to remove it. Then they jump onboard and ask why their chains aren't cutting so good. They could have all their angles right and would have good cutting but for not removing the gullet.
Leaving the gullet in place pushes the chain cutter off the wood prematurely giving them a bad cutting cutter and they think they are sharpening correctly but they fail to remove the gullet as the cutters get worn back. Then they show up here asking, "What am I doing wrong?" 
Who knows maybe Gypo has pics of the next item in chain sharpening. Rakers being lowered. 
I'd say learning to square file square chain is an art. It takes a heck of a lot longer to learn. Thanks for the pics.


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## wradman

*reply*



Gypo Logger said:


> Here's a pic that might help.
> The one on the left has a huge gullet that should have been taken out progressively with regular filing. The one on the right has the gullet cleaned out.
> John


good for competition
in the real world we don't have time for that
the biggest goalis gettting the teeth to cut even
i Have triangular files at $12 each
takes alot of time to make a pro chain 
in the real world 
make a nice small hook
rrakers not too low 
gow like fukkin hell
pictures to come in the next edition


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## Ax-man

Tree Machine , I think you need to get out a little more, little cabin fever setting in or what. It is just a picture of some cutters, settle down. 

Larry


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## Gypo Logger

Glad you all like the pictures. 
Thanks,
Rather than always trying to file the cutters edge when it may already be sharp, draw the file forward toward the raker with a bit of down pressure to make the gullet symetrical as in the following pictures.
This is round filed chisel and will be all you need to know for 99% of your cutting requirements, however, properly square filed or ground chisel bit chain is not much behind my race chain, although 1 sec is a long time at a race.
It takes alot less time to file correctly than it does haphazardly, so buy lots of files and watch your production and enjoyment of cutting go up 200%.
John


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## Gypo Logger

A bit out of focus, because there is very little depth of field when up so close, but it is to show the general shape of what I think the gullet should be.
John


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## Gypo Logger

Here's a 3/8 cutter straight off the square grinder and never been used yet.72CL
John


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## Gypo Logger

The inside of a round filed chisel cutter 33RS.
John


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## Ax-man

Gypo

Looks good, excellent to be honest with you. One question though, what angle are you filing ???? Looks like it has been filed straight across like rip chain is filed with a 10 degree angle. If you are filing straight across what is the advantage if any over the usual angles.

Larry


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## Gypo Logger

Larry, yes the above picture looks like it has a shallow top plate angle, but it's just an optical illusion, however, here's the top view.
I suppose the angle is about 25 degrees or slightly less. For general work, I think it's hard to say whether a 30 - 20 degree angle makes much difference, but I try to strive for 25 degrees on all cutters.
John


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## Kneejerk Bombas

clearance said:


> Anyone who runs a full house chain on a saw with a 28" bar that may see problems, rocks, objects in res. trees, etc. is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, with all due respect.



Just to pick a nit, a full house chain is what you have if there are no tie straps, just cutters, drive links and drivers. 
To obtain one, it would have to be home made, because chain manufacturers don't sell them.
A full house has right cutter, left cutter, right cutter...
A full complement has right cutter, blank (tie strap), left cutter, blank...
A semi-skip has right cutter, blank, left cutter, blank, blank, right cutter...
A full skip has right cutter, blank, blank, left cutter, blank, blank...

So I'm guessing what you meant is full complement, not full house.


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## Tree Machine

Thank you, Mike.


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## DeanBrown3D

Ever seen a double skip?:jawdrop:


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## Ax-man

Gypo,

Thanks for taking the second pic. That is one wicked looking cutter. To me that is as good as it can get. I have got to try a 25 angle to see if there is any difference. 


That camera of yours is something else, it picks up as much detail if not maybe a little more than if you were looking at that cutter under a hand lens, then it is able to put it on film. Awesome

Thanks Mike for your info, that was helpful

Larry


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## Gypo Logger

Thanks Larry,
The lens I bought for the Nikon D70 is incredible. It's a 105mm closeup lens, but also takes unbelievable portrait shots from 50 ft. away.
The pictures have been downsized by 60% just so they will fit on the screen.
It works best like all other lenses in natural light.
The images start out as 3008 x 2000 and I down size to at least 800 x 600.
A 2Gig card hold about 600 images in that size or about 7500 images in the smallest format.
I can't recommend this camera enough. Even with the 18-70mm zoom lens that it comes with, it is extremely versatile.
The D50 is just as good. Both are very easy to operate.
It's so much fun!


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## wradman

*under cut*



Gypo Logger said:


> Thanks Larry,
> The lens I bought for the Nikon D70 is incredible. It's a 105mm closeup lens, but also takes unbelievable portrait shots from 50 ft. away.
> The pictures have been downsized by 60% just so they will fit on the screen.
> It works best like all other lenses in natural light.
> The images start out as 3008 x 2000 and I down size to at least 800 x 600.
> A 2Gig card hold about 600 images in that size or about 7500 images in the smallest format.
> I can't recommend this camera enough. Even with the 18-70mm zoom lens that it comes with, it is extremely versatile.
> The D50 is just as good. Both are very easy to operate.
> It's so much fun!


sorry about the jibbersish i had just got home after pool night and i had a few beers.
thats a pretty small undercut do you cut like that all the time and did you have to wedge that tree?


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## Gypo Logger

Yes, it does look small, but it was actually big enough to fit the 385 right in the undercut that I was using to fell it.The tree was about 32" DBH.
No wedges.
John


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## wradman

*pics*

here's a few pics for ya
one is just a pic with a stump with a humbolt cut
the other is a spruce i fell yesterday nice stick for interior wood
40inches on the but and still 15 inches at 100 feet.


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## rdbee

Tree Machine said:


> I use an angle grinder on the rakers .


Jeezus, Man! What do you shave with, a brushsaw?

And on another note, to all you vice sharpeners, a vice is a beautiful thing if ya got one handy. In my opinion a guy should be able to get his saw sharp to the point of pulling his weight and/or making money with just a cutter file and raker file- no other gizmos whatsoever. This applies on the landing, on a tailgate, a steep-a$$ mountainside, showin off at the relatives in the city- anyplace,anytime. I have seen a guy file his saw in the back of a helicopter in flight! 
No offense to anyone but I think this is something a guy should work towards.


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## diltree

This is an old thread......

Rdbee,

I agree my brother made me learn how to sharpen a saw on the job site without a vice first. His point being; if your on the job with no sharp saws, you will best serve yourself if you can sharpen a saw on your knee and get back to work.


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## Tree Machine

If you can sharpen in a vise, it's pretty much a given you can do so without, you just have to use one hand on the bar to hold the saw from tipping and the other on the file, it's slower and less accurate and good way to send your wrist into early retirement, but yea, you can do it.

As far as the angle grinder thing, I do have to agree with your entire post, rd. As far as the angle grinder on the rakers, though, I usually only do that on the 395's 24 or 36" chains, and generally once during the life of the chain. Everything else would be as you mentioned.

When using just a flat file, if you file both left and right rakers from the same side you get that horrible squealing of file on raker, every other raker. Grinder, you can do them all from the same side withhout having to flip the saw around. With the grinder, you just use a light touch and each raker gets the same touch and for the same amount of time, usually ~1 second. If I file the rakers down with a flat file it takes me around 6 seconds per raker. Grinder is then 600% more time-efficient (and easier on the wrists) to acheive the same result. Angle grinder, a minute and a half, flat file around 10 minutes. Filing rakers is possibly the most boring chore in all of arboriculture. Putting a razor's edge on the teeth themselves, one of the most satisfying.

I would rather put my time into the teeth themselves. The rakers simply have to be all knocked down to the same height and the same surface contour, whether by file or grinder. In a practical sense, there is no difference except the method.

Now the chains for the smaller saw, it's almost just as fast to do the rakers by hand, and the teeth being close together makes it more 'surgical' with a grinder. Therefore, I just do the smaller chains by hand (but always in a vise).


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## diltree

Note: It also helps to learn how to file with both hands, learn to be ambidextrous


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## DoubleNickel

diltree--WOW-Your Site is Kool!!!!:rockn:


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## diltree

Thanks bro....I checked out your link man....Thats some powerful stuff, I agree we must never forget....I added to your reputation!


oh...and hand filing is good!


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## M.D. Vaden

I do one or two by hand, and have the third one done by a service using a machine.

Then I do the 4th or 5th.


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## Ryan Willock

[email protected] right I do!!! I NEVER use a guide or grinder, I do it all by hand and get them RAZOR sharp. Just ask Blinky, he's run my saws.


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## treevet

Can t help, leafing thru this thread, thinking about Mike Maas. Hope he is well and would like to see him back here more often. Have thought about him often over the last few weeks.


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## matty f

Always by hand without a guide and you dont need a vice...just do two teeth either side of the dogs and keep turning the chain...so you dont get bar flex..some times in the past i have used a guide but I can get it spot on with out,think i gave my lsat guide to a customer.
As long as you have good eye sight cant really see how you can go wrong as most chains have the pitch depth and cutter angles marked on them.
I like about 1/2 mm more out the pitch and you cant do that with a file guide any way.


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## M.D. Vaden

There is one service in Beaverton, Oregon, that can probably match any "RAZOR" sharp hand sharpening.

It's DCP Sharpening.

They used to do surgical instruments, as well as knives and chain - and whatever else.

When I got my professional pruning handsaw blades back from them, the sharpened ones were sharper than the new saws. For a fact - I started using a brand new saw when I dropped some blades off, and when I got them back, I used on of the sharpened ones and it was even better.


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## AlpineJesus

True Pros Handfile all there saws for optimal performance


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## treevet

I see no advantage not taking rakers down w a machine. I have a Stihl grinder for 30 years and only do rakers w it. I feel it takes the temper out of the steel on the tooth among other reasons. I can do a 44 inch chain in a couple of minutes for the rakers and don t care about the temper in their case.


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## mtvigilante

I hand file all the chains at work with no guide, just like my old-school boss taught me. I sit down in the shade with a jug of water and watch my groundman clean up. Its easy, just cross your legs, set the saw in your lap and go. If you have good vision, you can see how much hook you have, and the angle is stamped right there. I sharpen backwards of everyone i know, i push from the front to the back, like honing a knife, make 1 backwards pull across the top just before the last 1 or 2 strokes depending on if its stihl chain. I also twist the file as I sharpen, to strenghten my wrist. If you charge by the hour, its just 1 more way to cover your expenses. Those 32 and 36 inch bars take forever if you are doing rakers too, 3 rotations!

p.s. always tap your file on the side of the bar after each tooth to keep it clean and make it last-we use some files for 4 or 5 long bar sharpenings.


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## DoubleNickel

mtvigilanet: Hmm, so you reverse your file and pull? Angle is stamped? I do have a hard time sharping! I got to get the technique down.


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## mtvigilante

DoubleNickel said:


> mtvigilanet: Hmm, so you reverse your file and pull? Angle is stamped? I do have a hard time sharping! I got to get the technique down.



no, i push the file into the tooth, from the corner in, if you push to hard or get the wrong angle, it will chatter. I do this so it doesn't curl up. 

a good technique is to sit on the ground with your legs crossed. put the saw powerhead by your feet, lay the bar on your left thigh. this forms a good angle with your natural arm motion of your right arm. you will be sharpening the muffler side of the chain. push the file into the cutter. you can hold the powerhead by putting your right calf over the handle and starter.

after you do that side, flip the saw so you have the powerhead handle under your left thigh and knee, with the bar tip resting on your right knee and file the barnut side of the chain.

this diagram should show what i mean by pushing from the leading corner of the cutter towards the back.

I give the rakers 5 strokes or so when the chain is about half worn out, and again when it's almost gone, but dont pass the small stamped line on the raker, or you can break cutters or chain. always file the rakers before you file the cutters when it's time.

that's just a combination of my boss' and my techniques, it works well


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## (WLL)

*nice pic*



Tree Machine said:


> Don't use a cutting torch. I know you're just joking. I wouldn't use a hammer either. I'd assume you're joking also, Mike, but sometimes I'm not so sure where you're coming from.
> 
> I don't believe I suggested that anyone should do their rakers with an angle grinder, but rather that, under the pretenses of using personal safety gear, and as long as I'm out there sharpening the chipper knives, that I will do it that way. I didn't even suggest that it was a better way to do it, just that it was faster, and even then, only with the larger 24 and 36" chains.
> 
> Did I mention 'light touch'? That keeps the wheel from taking off too much, and keeps the wheel from leaving cross-marks across the top of the raker. The top of the raker should be rather smooth when you're finished.
> 
> I've never measured how much I take off from a vertical perspective. I do it visually, gauging it horizontally. Since the raker starts out dome-shaped, by touching it with the grinding wheel you can estimate by looking at the newly exposed metal, left-to-right. The deeper you go, the wider the new shine. Just take off a little, and do every one of the rest the same.
> 
> The result is essentially the same as doing it with a hand file. If you're grinding wheel is out of round, you will know it by the chatter and this is definitely unsafe.
> 
> Under the scrutiny of a raker gauge, I imagine they'd all be fairly close to one another. Since I'm only taking off a fraction, any differences between heights would have to be a fraction of a fraction.



:jawdrop: u use this same construction tool on the chipper ? like 2 birds one stone:censored:


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## Tree Machine

*u use this same construction tool on the chipper ?*

Construction? It's more a metal working tool, at least with the wheels normally run. Chipper knives and chain are metal.

I always on the angle grinder on the chipper knives (1-2 times a week), though usually only once in the life of the big chains (the first filing).

I've been doing it this way for about ten years, so it seems surprising to me that fellow arborists find it surprising.

I guess, don't use a 4" angle grinder if you're not comfortable. There are other ways of going about it. I've shared one way, but no one is encouraged or required to use it, just that it is one of the many ways to manage the birds.


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## a_lopa

Im curious of this now T/M i can see the merits of it..


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## Tree Machine

Just use a light touch, Lopa. That's all.


Hey everyone. I have fiddled with a number of designs for hand filing a chain while it is NOT on the bar.


I am asking about a chainsaw chain clamp. Yes, I realize every motorized chain bench grinder has one of these, but does anyone know of a stand-alone, commercially available device that will simpy clamp and unclamp a series of driver links?

Many of us will thrash a chain, swap for a sharp one and so on, leaving us, eventually with a box of dull chains. Now, putting a dull chain on the saw, just to sharpen it, so you can take it off and put on another is inefficient, time-consuming and puts a saw out of service.

And don't offer, "Clamp the drivers in a vice", I'm looking for something better. And don't give me "Clamp a bar in the vice, loop the chain on the bar and hang some weight on the chain from the underside." I'm looking for something better, something specifically for clamping tight the _driver links_. I've done OK with a 25 cm long stainless steel 'piano' type hinge squeezed in a vice, rough, but works well, slower than I'd like and you're dependent on a vice. I want the device to BE the vice, just small, precise and instant squeeze/unsqueeze with the flip of a cam lever.


Anyone.....? :Eye: :Eye:


----------



## oldirty

AlpineJesus said:


> True Pros Handfile all there saws for optimal performance



another truth from the A man.





oldirty


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## cantcutter

There is plenty of good advice here. I handfile as well with no guide, I think it does a better job. I am of the opinion that if you see a person filing a saw with a guide that that person was never trained well how to run a saw and probably are underskilled.... If they where they would have been taught how to handfile at the same time.


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## palogger

*filing chains off saw*

hey tree machine i just read ur post and i have a thing that clamps into the vise and is about 12 inches long with a roller wheel at each end. the drivers of the saw fit into a groove and is tightend by three cam levers, i will try to get a couple pics and post them in the next couple of days. oh and please don't ask me where i got it because i don't know, it was my grandfathers, but i'm sure u could have one built if i can get some pictures up


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## Highclimber OR

Yes I file all my saws by hand. I was taught the technique by an " old-timer'. He told me the ins and outs of hand filing and it works with practice and time. I can file almost anything with a chain. If you wanna know how Message me. This is for pros only as I have only seen a pro file a chain freehand and hope it stays that way.


----------



## Sharper is Safe

*I grind mine*

I have Carpal Tunnel, and some Arthritis to boot. Holding files, or even keeping a bar steady in my lap just isn't practical for me.

I also grind chains for beer money.  I have seen some chains that had one of the teeth past the manufacturer's wear-mark on the top of the tooth, and the ones both sides of it, still half there. The depth rakers had never seen a file.

No two teeth on the chains I sharpen ever matches on any of the 4 angles that a chain gets sharpened at, unless it is a repeat customer. Don't even talk to me about gullets - these folks would never imagine intentionally removing metal from anything but the cutting edge...oh but the damage to the link straps. - DOH!!

Of course, most of the chains I have sharpened have belonged to Johnny-Home-Owner, who finally had to admit that he simply doesn't understand the process, technique, or science of sharpening a chain. Blowing dust instead of chips tends to be very convincing - not to mention the smoke - LOL!!!

The professional that I have sharpened some chains for, who is a 27-year veteran climber (and frankly, one crazy, climbing SOB) prefers to sharpen his own chains, just like most of the professionals I have read about here. However, he also acknowledges that his time is better spent in a tree, than sitting on the ground, or standing at a bench, grind or filing chains, when those chains have been "rocked" or "chain-linked". BTW, while his manually sharpened chains were among the most even I have ever seen, even his chains had as much as 5 degrees or so of variation, when it came to the top plate. You just can't beat a jig, IMO, but for most pros the difference may not justify the time or expense - I have used his saws, and they run fine, even with the variations.

I can see both sides of this argument, and some shady gray areas between, too, such as my own inability to handle files for the time it takes to sharpen a chain. Mind you, I can, and have sharpened chains manually, with a file, but it just costs me too much in time, and discomfort, to do so, anymore. I can change a chain in three minutes, and sharpen that same chain on my grinder in about 4 minutes, maybe 5-6, if the depth rakers need attention. The jig provides for an accuracy that my joints won't allow, in a speedy fashion.

So instead, I have a dozen chains to fit my 24" Husqvarna, and 5 for my 18" Stihl (that rarely sees the outside of my truck-box). As soon as the chain starts getting dull, I swap it out, during a fill-up. (I also flip my bar, for extended use.) You see, I heat my house with wood (42 face cord last winter), as do some of my friends, and when we go "loggin", we go for all-day excursions. I can drop trees, limb them, and section them into 18 to 22 inch pieces, faster than they can load them into trailers and trucks pulled alongside the work. They used to try to help with sawing, but after 30 minutes, they would look at what the two of them did, and see that it was less than I had done by myself. At that point, they put saws away, and played catch-up the rest of the day. Nowadays, they don't even get saws out, unless I have a problem with mine. (Got some bad gas recently - what a pain.) Anyways, I enjoy the repetitive nature of sectioning logs into firewood sized pieces. Almost therapeutic - yep, I'm an odd-duck.

OK, my point isn't to brag about my wood cutting Godliness, (much - ha ha), but to point out that a properly sharpened saw, up alongside one that isn't, is the eternal frustration of the lazy, or uninitiated. How it gets sharp isn't so important, as knowing how to get it done right. However, I can honestly say that a manually sharpened chain will last longer than one that is sharpened by a grinder, if the person handling the file is proficient.

Which brings me to my question: Is there a master chart somewhere, that tells what angles to grind chains, of all sizes, brands, and types? I have seen some partial charts, but no resource that covers all chains for saws. You see, I keep getting people bringing me these chains, leaving them in a bucket on my porch, with a phone number, but I have no information about the saw. When I call them, I am lucky if they can even tell me what color their saw is, much less a brand name, or model number.

It just seems to me that there should be a way to cross reference the markings on the tooth links to a chart that tells factory specs - because invariably, these chains are a mess when I get them.

One last note: I think Grinding chains gets a worse rep than it deserves, because every minimum wage idiot working at a hardware store is taught (incorrectly) to sharpen chains for the unwary customers. My brother was paying 8 bucks a chain, and replacing the chains after 10 sharpenings, because the teeth were at the manufacturer's wear-marks.

I can't even imagine the hot metal sparks that were flying in the back room of that hardware store...and the NOISE!!!  

I have chains that I have sharpened 50 times, that are at about half-life, and those are the ones that found the wire-fence in the 50-year-old trees in the farmers wind-break fence rows. Lesson learned - leave 5 foot stumps on farm fence rows - wire that is long gone from sight, is still hard and mean inside those old trees.

Thanks in advance for help finding that chart,

SiSafe


----------



## youknowwho

From my past experience this question seems rediculous.

Ive been hand filing saws for 15 years with no gauge or guide, From my experience, It has to be done. I get saws sharper than new.

I sure could not have got by with machining my chains, how does one use that stuff when its not there?

A few years ago I would have said that a arborist that cant file a saw with just a round file and flat file, might as well quit. 


Thats how i would test ones knowledge,


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## oldirty

youknowwho said:


> From my past experience this question seems rediculous.
> 
> Ive been hand filing saws for 15 years with no gauge or guide, From my experience, It has to be done. I get saws sharper than new.
> 
> I sure could not have got by with machining my chains, how does one use that stuff when its not there?
> 
> A few years ago I would have said that a arborist that cant file a saw with just a round file and flat file, might as well quit.
> 
> 
> Thats how i would test ones knowledge,




man i hear you. how can you consider yourself proficient if you cant sharpen a chain right there on the spot in the field? i look at some of the guys edge's and cant say that i am impressed. they like to ask me how i keep my edges so fresh and i tell em how but no one really wants to put the saw in a figure 4 leglock and grind from right in front of you. theyd rather sit over the top of the saw and screw around from there. 

to be honest the results of hand filing come from your technique.

and to be honest my technique is the bomb. nothing but fresh edges on my saws man and they cut true till they get rocked or nailed. 



oldirty


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## Highclimber OR

youknowwho said:


> From my past experience this question seems rediculous.
> 
> Ive been hand filing saws for 15 years with no gauge or guide, From my experience, It has to be done. I get saws sharper than new.
> 
> I sure could not have got by with machining my chains, how does one use that stuff when its not there?
> 
> A few years ago I would have said that a arborist that cant file a saw with just a round file and flat file, might as well quit.
> 
> 
> Thats how i would test ones knowledge,




You said it all man, that is a good indicator.


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## yibida

*Practice with a file.*

ive used a round file by hand for years but its a practice makes almost perfect talent, just dont use anything that hardens the cutters ( electric sharpening stones), they will bite too much and without a cooling compound make your cutters brittle so that they loose thier edge in 15 minutes use, thats why mower shops luv em! Static jigs and guides are a good way to get started if your new to a cutter chain but a stump vise with a new file and a good eye are hard to beat on the job.

P.S.I know senior folk use the term "rakers" but they rake not a thing, depth gauges are at an exposed depth to the cutting edge to control chip thickness & size.


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## Mitchell

*might have been said*

the post is to long to read it all but a few thoughts of mine include.

First off, I used to swear by and insist my students filed according to the "best way." The highlights included grinding the gullets down into the chain, generally using 35 degree angle and 15 degree off horizontal, extra steep angles if it was a cross grain use chain, flatter if it was going to be a ground chain or used more for ripping angles, rotating the round file as it ran through, slight up and back pressure on the file to finish the tooth, get the tooth point to pin pricking sharpness....

After years of meeting other competent sawyers and there seemingly bizarre filing techniques, I realized there is no best way. I then would teach someone what I did and say do it any way you want I don't care so long as it cuts. 

One thing I have noticed however, is most sawyers hold unto bagged files. I find one slightly rocked 28" skip will require one file. Pitch it after that. A new file will touch a 28" chain up in a couple minutes, a used one can take 10 to 15. 

I bought some grinding stones but have never used them are they going to temper the steel as some suggested?


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## Sharper is Safe

Mitchell said:


> After years of meeting other competent sawyers and there seemingly bizarre filing techniques, I realized there is no best way.
> 
> I bought some grinding stones but have never used them are they going to temper the steel as some suggested?



I agree - the best way, is the way that works best for you, as long as it gets them properly sharpened, and therefore safe. Safe is the only criteria that concerns me, and only a sharp chain is a safe chain, especially when dealing with novice Sawyers. Too many people buy a chainsaw, fire it up, and go right to tearing up the woods, or their yard, with no idea about the care and feeding of their saw, or it's chain.

Grinding stones (wheels) DO have the potential to overheat and change the temper of steel - which, like any sharpening method, is part of the learning process. There are four things that I do, to keep my steel from getting overly hot, and therefore keep as much of the life in my chains, as possible.

1. Careful, accurate setting of the angles on the grinder jig(s).

I keep a log for my clients - they get the same angles on their chains, every time they come visit - and those angles are different, for different chain sizes, types, etc.. (One of my Arborist friends has special settings he likes for his climbing saws, devil may care about factory specs on the boxes they come in.) This allows me to take the very least amount of steel possible off of the working edge of each tooth, while still making every one (almost) identical to all the rest, because I know what the grinder settings were, last time. I can always tell if they sharpen them with a file, or take them somewhere else, between visits with me. They are always amazed that I can tell - and usually a bit sheepish, when it was the local hardware, where the moron just grinds depth rakers (gauges, whatever the favorite term is,) about halfway to the chain. (The scary part? - the hardware guy is 60, and is CONVINCED that they are nothing but an annoying safety feature - he tells me that holding the saw bar off the work is the way sawing SHOULD be done - that guy scares me.)

2. Setting the "depth" gauge on the grinder slide to barely allow the wheel to touch the chain. (The grinder depth gauge is the dial that turns, and moves the chain left to right, upon the slide rail, thereby determining position of the chain, when the cam locks the chain in place. This "jig" allows for the length of every tooth to be as close to exactly the same, as is mechanically, and I would argue "humanly possible" - but your mileage may vary. All I know for certain is that it works very well for me.)

3. I use a gentle motion when bringing the wheel into contact with the tooth. 

The idea is to take only enough steel to make the entire surface of the tooth that gets ground, shiny and bright. Taking more leads to over-heating, and a greatly reduced chain life, since you are grinding away the working edge of the chain. On large-toothed chains that happened to get "rocked", like the "72L" in my Husqvarna, I may bring the wheel into contact, and away from a tooth several times, before making the final "polishing" stroke, that gives it the even, highly polished, and razor sharp finish that I require of all of my cutting tools.

(When I go camping with my Scout, I shave with my hunting knife - for real. Drives his Scout-Master nuts - LOL!!! Then again, I like to sharpen my knives to a barber-shop sharpness, using corrugated cardboard as my "stone".)

Taking a moment to let the tooth cool can't be a bad thing, and may be the magic between razor-sharp durability, and the trash heap, when using any tool that is not manually powered, including the dremmels I have seen people plug into the power adapter on the dash of their truck. In general, I move my chains across the slide with my bare hands. If a tooth gets hot enough to cause discomfort, I slow down a bit, just to make sure I don't over-do it.

4. Finally, dressing the wheel keeps the "pores" of the wheel from filling up. If a grinding wheel gets loaded with carbon, steel flecks, oil, tree sap, wood dust, and whatever else may be on the chains I service, that stone does not "cut" as efficiently. That means pressing harder to do the same work, which in turn leads to over-heating. Dressing the wheel DOES seem to take some of it's life away - but I'd rather buy a 20 dollar stone wheel that will sharpen a few hundred chains, than a 20 dollar chain, that might get trashed in the field, tomorrow, by a stray piece of fence wire, a careless moment in the dirt, or some other unforeseen moment of brain-deadness - or might last a hundred sharpenings. (I've never counted - I wonder how many times I have sharpened some of my chains, over the 4 years I have owned the grinder? I have yet to wear one completely out, but I have many of them....hmmm...)

By the way, I have seen chains over-heated in the tree itself. Novice Sawyers that sharpen their own, usually don't read the manual very well. Even among the ones that do, most don't absorb, or comprehend the reason for setting the cutting depth on a chain. Running a chain that isn't throwing chips anymore, because the depth has never been adjusted on the chain leads to forcing the saw, with one's body weight, or brute force.  

Blue chains are a sorry sight - sorry indeed.

Hope you found that information useful. As I said earlier, I don't use a file, because I have problems holding the files in position, long enough to get the job done, and then afterwards, I suffer a lot of discomfort.

In my mind, whatever method you use, that gets them sharp, and safe, is a good method. There's nothing more dangerous than a dull tool - unless it's a dull worker...but staffing is another thread.


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## ronnyb

Roller guides are the way to go.


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## Mitchell

*rpm*

hey sharp

I have a dremmel tool, low and high speed corded drills and cordless ones. what rpm would you recommend or does it matter? Very informative post thanks for taking the time to write it.
Scott


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## Bruce Hopf

*Hand Filling*

Boy am I ever glad that isn't my chains that your trying to sharpen. I have a chain, that a customer of mine brought into my shop, to sharpen. He always free hand sharpened it, and wondered why it won't cut right. He has made such a mess of the chain, that I won't touch it, with my grinding machine.. 
Not one tooth is the same, not one raker is the same. One side the pitch is more aggressive on one side then the other. The chain is less than 1/2 used, and it is ruined, FUBAR. It will take too much grinding to get it right. Sad thing too. His guide bar is also ruined, FUBAR too. The bar isn't that old either. One side rail is thinner than the other.
Cutting down the rakers with an angle grinder, you still can't get every raker the same, I don't care how good you think you are. Without some kind of guide, you are just throwing away your money in your chain, and guide bar.
I see this every day I open up the shop doors, and a customer can't figure out why his saw doesn't cut right any more. When I see guys like this I just go to my self, CaChing, Just Sold Another Bar And Chain To Another Fool.
Sorry, but it's true.
Bruce.


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## gavin

Bruce Hopf said:


> Boy am I ever glad that isn't my chains that your trying to sharpen. I have a chain, that a customer of mine brought into my shop, to sharpen. He always free hand sharpened it, and wondered why it won't cut right. He has made such a mess of the chain, that I won't touch it, with my grinding machine..
> Not one tooth is the same, not one raker is the same. One side the pitch is more aggressive on one side then the other. The chain is less than 1/2 used, and it is ruined, FUBAR. It will take too much grinding to get it right. Sad thing too. His guide bar is also ruined, FUBAR too. The bar isn't that old either. One side rail is thinner than the other.
> Cutting down the rakers with an angle grinder, you still can't get every raker the same, I don't care how good you think you are. Without some kind of guide, you are just throwing away your money in your chain, and guide bar.
> I see this every day I open up the shop doors, and a customer can't figure out why his saw doesn't cut right any more. When I see guys like this I just go to my self, CaChing, Just Sold Another Bar And Chain To Another Fool.
> Sorry, but it's true.
> Bruce.



couldn't disagree more with everything you said. with practice and a good eye hand filing can be pretty much perfect.


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## Bruce Hopf

Gavin said:


> couldn't disagree more with everything you said. with practice and a good eye hand filing can be pretty much perfect.



Do yourself a favor some time when you have time. Take the chain off of your chain saw, and examine it very closely, from all angles of the chain. Go from tooth to tooth, on both sides of the chain. I guarantee you that you will be quit surprised. 
Then closely examine your guide bar. Take a square, and inspect it for abnormal ware. You will probably see that one side of the bar will be lower than the other, and one rail will be probably narrower than the rail on other side.
Then you will see how pretty much perfect you can be. I have a scarp barrel 1/2 full of chains, and bars as proof that I know what I'm talking about. I too used to hand file my chains, and thought I was doing a excellent job, until one day I examined my chain, and bar. That changed my mind in a hurry, before I had to replace everything, Bar, and Chain. Bruce.


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## clearance

Bruce, I started this thread, back in 2005. I feel that each to his own. I have never used a machine, I always file by hand. And I have taken a good look at my chains, and my bars. They look even and balanced. I have been a r.o.w. slasher, a spacer, a bucker and a climber/tree service guy. Gavin is a production faller.

I have sharpened about 99% of the time in the field, but I also have a big vise with a bright light shining on it. By hand and eye I can do it pretty good, better than out of the box, thats for sure. I have never chucked a chain that had some life left in it, I only chuck bars when they are bent. 

Think about this, a machine cannot put the double hook into a tooth, you can only do that by hand, with practice. (I mean a hook as you look straight down on the chain, like the hook when you are looking sideways, this is for clean wood, works great) So it could be that a machine done chain may be more balanced, angled perfectly, but not cut as fast as a hand filed chain, by a guy who has ran saw for thousands of hours. Rakers are another matter, we are talking the blondest of c-hairs, doesn't hurt to use a gauge here for optimal performance once in while.


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## 046

yup... what ever works!!!

everyone is a little different. used to laugh at folks who would rather change out a chain instead to spending 3-4 minutes touching it up by hand. 

now I've joined that crowd since switching to square cut chain. still only hand file round chains, but will only machine grind square. 

my simington square chain grinder has to be one of the best tools I've ever purchased.


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## Bermie

Bruce Hopf said:


> Do yourself a favor some time when you have time. Take the chain off of your chain saw, and examine it very closely, from all angles of the chain. Go from tooth to tooth, on both sides of the chain. I guarantee you that you will be quit surprised.
> Then closely examine your guide bar. Take a square, and inspect it for abnormal ware. You will probably see that one side of the bar will be lower than the other, and one rail will be probably narrower than the rail on other side.
> Then you will see how pretty much perfect you can be. I have a scarp barrel 1/2 full of chains, and bars as proof that I know what I'm talking about. I too used to hand file my chains, and thought I was doing a excellent job, until one day I examined my chain, and bar. That changed my mind in a hurry, before I had to replace everything, Bar, and Chain. Bruce.



Ha, this is what I teach in basic saw maintenance! If you are a novice with your CS30 ticket, you KNOW that uneven cutter lengths cause uneven cutting performance and abnormal wear on the bar...
Its those who have not been taught or who have not read some kind of manual who end up with chains and bars that look and perform like [email protected]! NOT the experienced operator who hand files their chains.


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## Bruce Hopf

Bermie said:


> Ha, this is what I teach in basic saw maintenance! If you are a novice with your CS30 ticket, you KNOW that uneven cutter lengths cause uneven cutting performance and abnormal wear on the bar...
> Its those who have not been taught or who have not read some kind of manual who end up with chains and bars that look and perform like [email protected]! NOT the experienced operator who hand files their chains.



I couldn't agree with you any more than 110%. I have 2 McCulloch Saws that I cut wood with every year, over 100 face cord a year. A Mac 10-10 Automatic, bought in 1968, and a Pro Mac 60, bought in 1973. Both saws have the original Sprocket Nosed Bars, but the Sprocket Noses on both bars were changed, because I couldn't keep them tight any more.
I used mostly an Oregon Chain Filer that clamped onto the bar. In the bush, I tried to sharpen free handed, when the chain got dull. 
To this day I still can't figure out why, but I had a chain I couldn't do any thing with. After being sharpened for awhile, it always wanted to dish one way all the time. The rest of the chains I used were fine, but just this one.
The bar was true when I checked it. Maybe you can shed some light on the matter.
6 Years ago I purchased the TecoMec FL-136 grinding machine, and hardly use a file at all now. It's basically the same thing as the Oregon Grinding machine. Works great for me.
Bruce. P.S. I am also a Stihl Factory Service Technician as well.


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## Mitchell

*glad this thread was unearthed*

I should have re read this thread before I tried out a windser grinder I got my mitts on a couple months ago. I destroyed 5 chains ha ha. I ignorantly blued them all by trying to grind to fast. two chains to the point they snapped when I was using them. That could be very dangerous if they shot out of the saw. I chucked out all the chains I had done just in case; expensive lesson but they were rocked chains I had never got around to hand filing anyways.


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## Bruce Hopf

Mitchell said:


> I should have re read this thread before I tried out a windsor grinder I got my mitts on a couple months ago. I destroyed 5 chains ha ha. I ignorantly blued them all by trying to grind to fast. two chains to the point they snapped when I was using them. That could be very dangerous if they shot out of the saw. I chucked out all the chains I had done just in case; expensive lesson but they were rocked chains I had never got around to hand filing anyways.


The trick Ive learned with the grinding machines, is that you pull the grinder down until it just touches the connecting links, and raise it up a hair. I then slide the chain ahead, until the tooth touches the grinding stone, lock the chain into place, and set the tooth stop. 
I start the grinder, and slowly bring it down into contact with the tooth, and go slowly right down until the grinder hits the depth stop. If I have a slight wire edge, that you can feel catch with your thumb nail, while running it the length of the tooth, that's all you need. If you don't have this you need to push in your chain a hair or too. Also if the whole underside of the tooth is not ground shiny, you need to adjust until you achieve it
Now prior to sharpening my chains, I learned from this forum to clean my chains before grinding. I soak my chains in Oven Cleaner, in a Plastic Tub, with a lid on it. I swish the tub around far a Minute or two, and let it soak for a minute or two. I do this a couple of more times.
I then rinse them off with water in the laundry tub, and hang them up on the chain rack, to dry over night or a day or two. I sharpen them, and the stone doesn't get all ganged up as bad. I then soak my chains in a plastic tub with a lid on it, with bar oil, for over night. I then take them, and hang them up on the chain rake, with a catch tub under them, so that the oil drips into off the chains.
When I first started sharpening with the grinding machine, I practiced on 3 chains that were no longer fit because I put a longer bar on my big saw. After trial and error with these 3 chains., until I got the grinding machine mastered. I use it to cut down the rakers as well. Great machines to work with. Wish I bought the Machine 20 years prior too when I did. 
If you still have those chains you threw out, practice with them. Once you mastered this, you will always use the grinding machine, and love it. It's a lot quicker and easier to sharpen chains, with than a file, once you get set up, no guessing if you have the right angle of the file either.
Hope this helps you, and Good Luck with it.
Bruce.


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## Bruce Hopf

Mitchell said:


> I should have re read this thread before I tried out a windsor grinder I got my mitts on a couple months ago. I destroyed 5 chains ha ha. I ignorantly blued them all by trying to grind to fast. two chains to the point they snapped when I was using them. That could be very dangerous if they shot out of the saw. I chucked out all the chains I had done just in case; expensive lesson but they were rocked chains I had never got around to hand filing anyways.


The trick Ive learned with the grinding machines, is that you pull the grinder down until it just touches the connecting links of the chain, and raise it up a hair, or two. I then slide the chain ahead, until the tooth touches the grinding stone, lock the chain into place, and set the tooth stop. 
I start the grinder, and slowly bring it down into contact with the tooth, and go slowly right down until the grinder hits the depth stop. If I have a slight wire edge, that you can feel catch with your thumb nail, while running it the length of the tooth, that's all you need. If you don't have this you need to push in your chain a hair or too. Also if the whole underside of the tooth is not ground shiny, you need to adjust until you achieve it
Now prior to sharpening my chains, I learned from this forum to clean my chains before grinding. I soak my chains in Oven Cleaner, in a Plastic Tub, with a lid on it. I swish the tub around far a Minute or two, and let it soak for a minute or two. I do this a couple of more times.
I then rinse them off with water in the laundry tub, and hang them up on the chain rack, to dry over night or a day or two. I sharpen them, and the stone doesn't get all ganged up as bad. I then soak my chains in a plastic tub with a lid on it, with bar oil, for over night. I then take them, and hang them up on the chain rake, with a catch tub under them, so that the oil drips into off the chains.
When I first started sharpening with the grinding machine, I practiced on 3 chains that were no longer fit because I put a longer bar on my big saw. After trial and error with these 3 chains., until I got the grinding machine mastered. I use it to cut down the rakers as well. Great machines to work with. Wish I bought the Machine 20 years prior too when I did. 
If you still have those chains you threw out, practice with them. Once you mastered this, you will always use the grinding machine, and love it. It's a lot quicker and easier to sharpen chains, with than a file, once you get set up, no guessing if you have the right angle of the file either.
Hope this helps you, and Good Luck with it.
Bruce.


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## can

Tree Machine, get a nice straight log, no knots, no taper, and strap it to an immovable object, so the end sticks out a few feet. Now take a new chain and cut a few cookies while your wife times you with a stopwatch.
Now file it and time some more cuts. Did you cut at least twice as fast? If not, you have more to learn. 

Kneejerk Bombas wrote this in the spring off 2005. annyone who know iff he meant cutting twice as fast with round fil or square ground filing? I wanted too ask him for myself but his private innbox was full. Hope you understanding my english I am from Norway, and some years since school.


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