# Pricing help



## ACE (Dec 20, 2006)

Just started a tree service and wanted to get input on pricing. I figured I would charge about $100/hr for one man w/ stump grinder and $75/hr/man for tree removel. Does this sound about right? I would estimate how long i think it would take and give them a flat price based on these figures. Any input is appreciated.


----------



## jmcguiretree (Dec 20, 2006)

most people around here charge by the inch.Measure the longest point across the stump times price per inch.Also remember that white pine grinds easier than apple or surgar maple.Per inch is between 1.50 -2.00 an inch for grind only.


----------



## alanarbor (Dec 21, 2006)

ACE said:


> Just started a tree service and wanted to get input on pricing. I figured I would charge about $100/hr for one man w/ stump grinder and $75/hr/man for tree removel. Does this sound about right? I would estimate how long i think it would take and give them a flat price based on these figures. Any input is appreciated.



It really depends on your market. That may be way too high for your area, or you could be leaving money on the table. What's the going rate in your neighborhood?

However, the technique of using a cost/hr, and then estimating the time it will take you to do the work is sound. Just be sure you factor in extra costs such as rental equipment, dump fees, etc.

The important thing is that you know what your overhead costs are. If you're not covering that, your business is guaranteed to die a painful death.


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 21, 2006)

From a homeowner stand point I have noticed that within the last 3-4 years the going rate for a 2 to 3 man crew is about $750 to $850 per day. One man in the bucket one man on the ground (or two on the ground). For small jobs figure $125 for about a half hour with 3 men, $200 for the full hour, and $300 for 2 hours. That is in South Jersey, there is a HUGE difference in price between all of the tree sevice companies in our area though.


----------



## John464 (Dec 21, 2006)

twoodward15 said:


> From a homeowner stand point I have noticed that within the last 3-4 years the going rate for a 2 to 3 man crew is about $750 to $850 per day. One man in the bucket one man on the ground (or two on the ground). For small jobs figure $125 for about a half hour with 3 men, $200 for the full hour, and $300 for 2 hours. That is in South Jersey, there is a HUGE difference in price between all of the tree sevice companies in our area though.



I but heads with every tree company in this area and I can tell you there is not one that is working that cheap. Even during the slow Xmas time. 


You can find cheap guys for sure, but I can tell you the ones that have insurance, have equipment that doesnt leak oil on your driveway, and operate as legitmate business can not possibly operate at $800 for a full 8hr work day. Thats only $100 per hour! Add up the expense and what would the owner be making $10-$30 per hour profit? Thats at most $240 per day profit! Heck my climbers alone make about that.


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 21, 2006)

John, I agree with you completely. I don't know how they are still in business working that cheap. I did forget to add that that was for working from a truck alone. No climbers for that money. I am surprised that everyone in the business in the area is still using the "they don't have insurance" slogan as well. I find it hard to believe that everyone is willing to show their insurance card, but everyone says the next guy doesn't have it. A few years ago I got quotes on getting half of my 55 trees removed (the easy front half, not pulling anything out from the back). You could drive the truck in and start cutting. I got quotes from $2000 up to $5500. I had a man come in and tell me he would give me a quote for half now and then to remove the other half when they started to die off or he'd give me a quote to remove them all. I listened to what he said, and we decided to remove them all to open up the yard. His quote was $3600 for all of them. It was a father and son team (should rule out a few and you'll probably know who I am talking about). He was a nice guy and did a great job. For tree removal alone, I don't think there is anyone that is doing a bad job. I haven't heard of anyone having problems yet. I know a couple shady guys as well, but I haven't heard anything bad about them either. It's a tough business with a lot of competition. Had I been a member here and interested in saws as much as I am now I'd have hired a forum member to do the work, but I am very pleased with the work they did.


----------



## ACE (Dec 21, 2006)

jmcguiretree said:


> most people around here charge by the inch.Measure the longest point across the stump times price per inch.Also remember that white pine grinds easier than apple or surgar maple.Per inch is between 1.50 -2.00 an inch for grind only.



Just want to make sure I understand correctly. If a stump was 24" at the longest point x $2.00 per inch thats only $48 on average. Is that what you mean? Thanks


----------



## John464 (Dec 21, 2006)

Well if you saw how those people live you would see they are content with just getting by.... 

When a customer tells me I can get Company X to come in for way under my qoute I tell them to have them do it. 

I know landscapers that make more money per day than $800 just for raking leaves. One truck, a few rakes and blowers and 3 guys. 



Tree work is a different ball game. Our crews pull up to a job with over $200,000+ worth of equipment, usually a 5 man team and basically risking our lives it better have a good profit margin or the high risk inst worth it.

Among the competition that actually puts a dent in this area we are all usually very close in price. The difference between companies is how efficiently and differently they can complete the job. A $750 tree job is a $750 tree job and is very apparent that's the going rate between bidders. Two companies may be exact in price qoutes, but one crew can do three of those in a day and the other will be there all day with their one or two truck under staffed operation running back and forth to the dump. For example, we sometimes have a bucket truck in the front yard, a spider lift in the back, 2-3 dump trucks to hold wood, a chip truck, chipper, stump grinder and an experienced crew of atleast 5 guys, one of which is a certified arborist. That type of force should be able to knock out 2k - 3k per day on one job _or_ a few smaller jobs combined in an 8-10hr time frame.


The reason the insurance is brought up because there is only a handful of companies with actual insurance. Every estimate we do we present our certificate and offer to mail the customer a copy. I had one customer this year recieve a certificate from a competitor, the customer made a copy. Called them up and the insurance company said that it was only an auto insurance policy that the company currently holds. Just because they are showing the insurance certificate doesnt mean it is up to date or even pertaining to tree work.


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 21, 2006)

I agree with you. I can't stand it when people use the "I can get it cheaper from the guy down the road" line. 

I think a two or three man crew with a bucket truck, chipper, dump truck and some saws can do just as good a job as a crew with 3 dump trucks and all the best gear. The only difference is that I (as the homeowner) don't have to make the payments on all of that equipment when he comes to cut down my trees.

While you do offer top notch service there is still room for the little guy trying to make a living and I can't begrudge them that.

The fact remains that at the end of the day you have to eat and pay for all of that equipment and all of your employees. you know what you need to make in order to do that, as well as the little guy trying to feed his wife and kids. He just may not be paying for 3 or 4 dump trucks.

you come out with a crew of 5 and a certified arborist. You offer high end service and it is very well known in this area. Unfortunately, and please correct me if I'm wrong as I may very well be, but I don't see the need for a certified arborist to drop trees. I'm all for having that person there, but he may not be necessary on a job where you aren't trimming and are just dropping and grinding stumps. It's an added expense to the homeowner.

"For example, we sometimes have a bucket truck in the front yard, a spider lift in the back, 2-3 dump trucks to hold wood, a chip truck, chipper, stump grinder and an experienced crew of atleast 5 guys, one of which is a certified arborist. That type of force should be able to knock out 2k - 3k per day on one job or a few smaller jobs combined in an 8-10hr time frame."

You need to knock out 2k to 3k a day to pay for the people and equipment. If you have fewer employees and less equipment you don't need to make as much to pay for it. You can't charge someone 2 to 3k a day and send one guy out to cut down trees. It's just not justifiable.

This insurance issue is a very touchy subject around here and it makes me very curious. Why? Everybody and I mean everybody is talking crap about everybody else saying they don't have insurance. It is unbelievable. Even in normal conversation with tree guys they all make sure they say who doesn't have insurance. Not that I've talked to all or even a lot of them, but I've talked to quite a few and they all talk the same game. "they don't have insurance and I do" I wish you weren't so well known in the area. I'd drive around and talk to tree people with you and you could hear them yak about it. 

Bottom line is this. You are a high end tree service with people and equipment to show. There's got to be a start up company somewhere or someone that is happy working with his son in the business and keeping it small. It's what makes the world go around.


----------



## jonseredbred (Dec 21, 2006)

twoodward15 said:


> Bottom line is this. You are a high end tree service with people and equipment to show. There's got to be a start up company somewhere or someone that is happy working with his son in the business and keeping it small. It's what makes the world go around.



you are exactly right, we work 250 days a year with a 3 man crew. bucket, chip truck/chipper and prentice loader truck. Its all about what you keep, not gross on a job.

I have been a small company and a large company in my career, I can tell you straight up less is more.

5 man crew on 1 residential job with all that equipment sounds more like a cluster f***.


----------



## neighborstree (Dec 21, 2006)

i dont know how you guys make any money workin for 800 a day. i mean you figure thats you and 2 guys, pay them on the cheep end, 10 bucks a hour, so now your down to 740. milage, fuel . knives in a chipper. a 50'000 bucket truck. figure a 10'000 chipper. a few saws, new chains when nessary, sounds like you would make more money working at mcdonalds. not being a ass, totally serious..my crew of 3 men, 1 bucket truck 1 chipper 1 chip truck works for a flat rate of 1500 a day. and thats competitive for my area..if the job requires my track loader. thats a extra 650 a day.. for instance last week.. i cleared a quarter acre lot in the rear of a homeowners house. brush, small saplings, and a few large trees. all stumps ground out, planted 32 norway 7 foot tall along the rear of the property..took 8 days from start to finish. including mulch . the guy wrote me a check for 26'000. thats not a bad weeks pay lol


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 22, 2006)

Neighborstree, You live in Philly, I live at the Ac expy/42 split. I am originally from Western NY as the poster above is (Silver Creek) The south towns. There is a huge difference in cost of living from WNY to the Philly area. But there are people doing it here for that money as well.
I totally agree with you that 800 is low for here, but I had the work done. I'm not trying to say that tree services in the area should lower their prices, they should definately not, but there are people willing to work for less. If you buy used equipment and can do the upkeep yourself, then you don't need to make as much to make a living and you can undercut the competition to insure that you have enough work year round to eat and support your family. In any free country there will be people doing that to make it work.
Jonseredbred, actually, I live in the suburbs (think Orchard Park in your area) and I have an average house here (1800 square feet 3 bed 1.5 bath), but we actually have good sized lots here as compared to up there. So there is room to have that kind of equipment in your yard all at one time. The problem here is keeping an eye on your saws. They'll walk in a heartbeat as any pro here will tell you. I'm sure they've all lost a few.


----------



## neighborstree (Dec 22, 2006)

absolutly rite, not only saws, lol i had a bandit 254 and a bandit 280 walk away a few years back


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 22, 2006)

holy crap, that is not even funny. Saws are one thing but when big equipment walks that's rough.


----------



## B-Edwards (Dec 22, 2006)

I stopped doing stumps by the inch , it only confuses the customer in the situation. Homeowner counts 15 inches but doesn't see the Root Crown or measures from top of a 2 foot stump. Every stump is different if they are harder to complete I'm charging more for it.


----------



## jonseredbred (Dec 22, 2006)

twoodward15 said:


> Jonseredbred, actually, I live in the suburbs (think Orchard Park in your area) and I have an average house here (1800 square feet 3 bed 1.5 bath), but we actually have good sized lots here as compared to up there. So there is room to have that kind of equipment in your yard all at one time.



room maybe, necessary, no.

around here a 3 man crew as I described can _AVERAGE_ $1300.00 per day.

Some days we might get 2000.00 in trimming, later in the week might only get a $900.00 job in a day. Its all about the average.

I enjoy the clowns who say they dont leave the yard for anything less than 2k a day. either lying to themselves or soon to be in a sit down with Mr. Bankmanager.


----------



## John464 (Dec 22, 2006)

jonseredbred said:


> room maybe, necessary, no.
> 
> around here a 3 man crew as I described can _AVERAGE_ $1300.00 per day.



necessary yes when you are booked for weeks and can not be on a job all week. the example he provided called for- residential removals trees both in the back and front yard. so yes there is plenty of room 

I would have two crews on one job which would be 5-8 guys combined, depending on how big or difficult the trees were. one crew in the front... one crew in the back. IMO it is necessary when you have a guy in the air, a rope man, and someone assiting the rope man. That is the bare minimum one should have on a crew is 3 anything less it is un safe and under staffed. If two guys are in the air then you need the extra ground guys assisting there as well. 

twoodward mentioned he had 55 trees with a price of $3600. with the going rate he witnessed, he drew the conclusion, the crew averaged approx $800 per day. that would mean it took this crew approx 4 days to complete that. Perhaps they underbid the job? I do not know, but that is what he as a homeowner believes tree companies in his area may average per day.

when you double the number of workers and triple the equipment the job could have been completed in less than two days with two crews working together

Overkill? Hardly. It is sometimes what is needed to assist all your customers in a timely fashion. If you make people wait too long, you not only irritate them, they may just look elsewhere and you may lose their business for years to come.


----------



## jonseredbred (Dec 22, 2006)

I wish I was in a market that required us to gang up on work. It simply doesnt exist here.

A two week backlog in these parts is something too jump for joy for.


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 22, 2006)

I couldn't have said it better John. 
jonseredbred. I hear you. My family still lives there and that is just a way of life up there. Where in WNY do you live???


----------



## jonseredbred (Dec 22, 2006)

just west of rochester. In LeRoy, NY


----------



## twoodward15 (Dec 22, 2006)

John, just so you can see jonseredbreds side, I live in Whitman Square. It holds probably 2 to 3 times the number of people that your average town up there does. I'm not talking Wahington TWP, I'm talking Whitman Square. I graduated high school in 1992, along with the other 58 seniors......we're talking small. My father is a high end carpenter/home builder. he works for himself. He just raised his rates this year to $30 an hour. He's higher than most of the competition. Like you, he's as busy as he wants to be. It's different up there.


----------

