# Why Klotz?



## akennyd (Oct 8, 2009)

I know there are a few on here that run Klotz oils. Simple question: Why?

Is it from experience? (By experience I mean have you seen something from tearing down your engine that you like when you use this oil? etc.)

Personally I would like to try Klotz for some reason, honestly just because some people on here use it and seem to have success with it. Honestly, that's what it boils down to. But....I'm having a hard time making the purchase simply because the Klotz oils (as far as I know) are not rated by API or JASO.

Right now I'm running Pennzoil Air Cooled in my stuff based on it being API TC rated (it's also listed on the JASO list for as FC and FD but Pennzoil does not indicate this on their labeling) and being specifically labeled for "air cooled." I've also seen more than one test online where it was noted for it's clean burning. Before the Pennzoil, I was running Mobil 1 2t (which is rated JASO FC) but it was listed in one of those tests and did not do as well as the Pennzoil for cleaness, ran hotter, and didn't make as much power as the Pennzoil. Pennzoil is now phasing out the Air Cooled and of course the Mobil is also gone. I've stocked up on the Pennzoil but have been in search of another "better" replacement oil. I had disregarded the Stihl branded oils earlier but looked at them again a day or two ago and was pleasantly surprised to see their "Super" oil listed as JASO-FD and exceeding API-TC. I think this is what will be switching to in the future.

Any thoughts? Why use a non-rated oil? I'm now ducking for cover! Let the cursing begin!!!!!!!

Kenny
John 3:16


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## eyolf (Oct 8, 2009)

My opinion isn't worth a whole lot, as I am not an oil-industry engineer. But Here goes.

I am not a fan of the Pennz air-cooled. AFAIK, it is dino oil with NO or low synthetic additives. It will meet TC standards, but as some know, nobody is actually testing to those lower standards anymore. They actually fall just short of the JASO FB for smoke. I havent encountered any info as to how they compare to the current ISO standards for lubricity, shear, deposit formation, etc, but taking into account that the TC standards are years out of date and nobody really uses them anymore, I'd guess that TC oils won't measure up.

Which brings up another point: since the TC rating is no longer used or policed, how does one know if the oil is OK?

KLotz and a few others sell a high quality product, but don't pay the testing lab fees just to get a label. Their testing lab is the customer, who wouldn't use the product if it wasn't performing. IMO, these cachet oils are a bit of overkill for most users. The weekend firewood guy with his 029 or Husky 350 isn't going to be working his equipment hard enough to require it.

If that user hasn't maintained his saw or adjusted the carb properly, I can't see the oil making the difference to keep it going.

***********

I stopped by a motorsports shop recently and brought home a quart of KLotz R50. It does smell nice. I imagine it burns even cleaner than the synthetic blend I have been using, but its about $9 a quart more, and my blend is available at a farm store I visit often.


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## akennyd (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks eyolf.

Pennzoil is a dino oil but it is on the JASO list as a FC and FD. Don't ask me why two listings but it is at least rated as FC. 

I tend to agree that the average user will never know the difference but what the heck, if a person never asks or investigates then he or she will never know which may be the better oil to use.

I had a consumer grade weedwacker burn itself up on a synthetic oil I found at Wally world (wasn't wally brand). I personally won't use that oil again but that is just me. Can I say it was the oil's fault? No not for sure but that was the start of my search for a better grade of oil. I bought a Stihl brush cutter to replace the dead one and have used only orange bottle Stihl oil (less than two bottles), Mobil 1 (about a half quart) and now Pennzoil in (several bottles). I've run it VERY hard (commercial type use) in a three acre blue berry field for a few years now with no trouble what so ever.

Kenny

John 3:16


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## MCW (Oct 8, 2009)

I think some high expense synthetics are a bit of a toss myself. If an oil works, it works but each to their own.
I have been using a full synthetic oil made by ALCO in the US but marketed by the Australian Carlton importers under their own name. This stuff is excellent value and as cheap or cheaper than most mineral oils on the market. Smells lovely too 
I had been using Castrol TTS exclusively which costs about AUD$27 per litre. The gear I get would sell for near half that. Is it better than TTS? No. But is it worse? No.
I ran my modded 7900 for nearly 24 hours on the weekend just gone (we had a 3 day weekend here in South Australia). The plug was as clean when I finished as when I started and my saw didn't seize.
If you are racing saws that are running on a knife edge maybe an issue would expose itself? In my situation with basically a "woods" ported 7900 I can't see that paying the earth for "top end" synthetics is worth it, no matter how many tests have been done and how many letters are added after it's name.
My "Snellerized" 7900 has had around 30 gallons put through it now at 50:1 using this oil and it's running a treat.


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## akennyd (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks MCW,

That's what I'm looking for. Some real world experience with oils.

I'm hoping to pull my Stihl brush cutter (250) apart this winter to take a look at it. As I said it has been mostly run on Pennzoil so I'm interested in seeing what the insides look like and what wear is happening. Right now I can recommend the Pennzoil and it seems to burn clean but I have no actual basis as far as mechanical wear goes.

Kenny
John 3:16


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## akennyd (Oct 8, 2009)

BTW MCW,

I can get Castrol TTS for $7.95 US plus shipping, haven't looked for it local but have investigated it online. It's JASO FD rated.

Kenny
John 3:16


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## TDunk (Oct 8, 2009)

All of my experience with oils goes back to when i was racing motocross (back when two strokes ruled) I've ran Belray MC1, H1R, Maxima, Klotz, Redline, Spectra, Yamalube and a few others. All of them did the job, and really never had any oil related issues. With that said though, the Klotz R50 seemed to have less carbon build up and didn't show as much wear between re-builds. Same with the transmission oils too, i wasn't adjusting the clutch as much as with other oils and was getting more life too.


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## B_Turner (Oct 8, 2009)

Among the top oils, for me the final choice is based on smell and stink factor.

My favorite is still 2T, although I will be out of luck when my stockpile runs out.


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## troutfisher (Oct 8, 2009)

Klotz makes oil that will blend with alcohol, most oils won't.


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## gallegosmike (Oct 8, 2009)

I am using lucas semi-synthetic oil right now. It is really good stuff and very clean burning. Ive got a stash of of mobil 2T that I bought early this year to burn through. After the 2T, I am going to run castrol RS TTS full synthetic oil. I am of the understanding that it is pretty close to stihl ultra oil. I can by local to me castrol RS TTS for about $8.00 a quart.


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## blsnelling (Oct 8, 2009)

I use it because of its untarnished reputation and local availability. I also use it because it offers the protection of castor bean oil with the cleanliness of a full synthetic.


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## akennyd (Oct 8, 2009)

Brad,

Do you run Super TechniPlate or R50.

I was considering Super because it has some castor in it but maybe it would be too messy.

Thanks to all for the info and patience. I know this is kind of a dead horse type of thing. 

Kenny
John 3:16


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## blsnelling (Oct 8, 2009)

akennyd said:


> Brad,
> 
> Do you run Super TechniPlate or R50.
> 
> ...



Check out their tech sheets. BeNOL, Super TechniPlate, R 50. The R50 matches the film strength and flash point of Benol, yet is cleaner burning than either Benol or Super Techniplate. Plus no cold weather seperation concerns like you have with castor oil.

The castor isn't necessarily messy, just not needed and may have cold weather seperation issues.


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## WoodChuck'r (Oct 8, 2009)

akennyd said:


> Brad,
> 
> Do you run Super TechniPlate or R50.
> 
> ...




I run R50 myself. I'm pretty sure that the Super Techniplate has 20% of Klotz Beanol in it - hence the castor. 

I run the R50 mainly because I'm just burning gasoline (obviously) and not methanol or alcohol. I've run the Super numerous times as well. I never really noticed a difference between Super Techniplate and R50 - in 93 Octane gas both oils are practically the same. You'd probably need 100 octane + to really notice a difference.....


--
Edit: I'm not a professional on racing 2 stroke oil and high octane fuel! This is just my backyard observation!!


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## epicklein22 (Oct 8, 2009)

TDunk said:


> All of my experience with oils goes back to when i was racing motocross (back when two strokes ruled) I've ran Belray MC1, H1R, Maxima, Klotz, Redline, Spectra, Yamalube and a few others. All of them did the job, and really never had any oil related issues. With that said though, the Klotz R50 seemed to have less carbon build up and didn't show as much wear between re-builds. Same with the transmission oils too, i wasn't adjusting the clutch as much as with other oils and was getting more life too.



Yup, it is a toss up when talking about hi-end syn. oils. Just go with what smells good and costs the cheapest. Or try them all just for fun, that is what I'm doing right now.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 8, 2009)

I pretty much agree with what's been said, you really can't go wrong with the top of the line syntheti ester oils. I run klotz because it runs clean. It's an ester synthetic, so it has the film strength I want, and it smells good. Super Techniplate is a good oil, but for every day use I prefer an oil without castor in it.


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## cpr (Oct 8, 2009)

+1 on what most have said. I ran Stihl and Husky oils for years and switched to R50 this year. My saws and weed whip gained rpms from the switch and are easier to hold a tune with. Plus, it smells great with 100LL.


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## TRI955 (Oct 8, 2009)

What ever happened to our Klotz guy??? He was a member, Brad help me out....


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## FATGUY (Oct 8, 2009)

A friend of mine (a good friend) gave me a quart of Klotz 50, and I've never looked back. Smells great, and keeps my saws "wet". I think Ultra is fine and probably just as good, but I'm gonna stick with Klotz 50. JMO. (BTW, my 2 favorite saw builders recomend it, BLS and EH!)


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## stihlboy (Oct 8, 2009)

hmm the same friend put it in my saw and i could see a very slight improvement in power


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## dancan (Oct 8, 2009)

I looked at the klotz website and can't find any mention of chainsaws mix ratio , did I miss something ?


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 8, 2009)

dancan said:


> I looked at the klotz website and can't find any mention of chainsaws mix ratio , did I miss something ?



I think they're updating their website.


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## redlinefever (Oct 8, 2009)

Alright this is what was told to me by a local dealer! Wondering if it is true or not he said[ quote that if you run klotz that u would in time build up residue or carbon behind the rings and eventually rings would not compress anymore and then you would need a rebuild] any truth to that guys i had a banshee and that is the only oil i would run in it they said it was the best u could by!


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 8, 2009)

redlinefever said:


> Alright this is what was told to me by a local dealer! Wondering if it is true or not he said[ quote that if you run klotz that u would in time build up residue or carbon behind the rings and eventually rings would not compress anymore and then you would need a rebuild] any truth to that guys i had a banshee and that is the only oil i would run in it they said it was the best u could by!



That can happen with any oil, not just Koltz.


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## redlinefever (Oct 8, 2009)

his reason was that it had castor bean oil in it and that it would be more prone to it . Right now im running ultra


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 8, 2009)

R50 has no castor oil in it, it's a full ester synthetic. Benol is 100% castor oil and Supertechinplate is a blend of 20% castor and 80% synthetic. All of these oils will work fine in a saw, but in the long haul full castor oil like Benol will eventually gum things up a bit. Supertechinplate would likely never give you any issues.


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## akennyd (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks to ALL for the very civil discussion about oils, it's been better and more informative than I imagined it would be!

I'm still weighing my future oil choice and I'll probably be trying more than just one but Klotz will be one of the first I try. Stopped by a motorhicky shop today but they only carried Kawasaki and Yamaha 2 stroke oils. No Klotz and no Amsoil.

Pulled the muffler on my saw this evening, it's been running on nothing but pennzoil air cooled for the first three tanks through it. Looked in at the piston and it already has the soft carbon showing on about 30-40% of the piston that I've seen in other pics in the online tests run with this oil. This carbon seemed to be already building up on the muffler screen. I'm running this oil at 32:1. Other than that, things looked pretty clean with a good oil film over the rings and cylinder.

Thanks again to all!!!

Kenny
John 3:16


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## Ljute (Oct 8, 2009)

My nose must be wired different. I think the Klotz R50 stinks bad. Smells like burning laundry detergent, whatever that smells like...


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## madhatte (Oct 8, 2009)

I remember hearing something about the old WWI Le Rhone and Gnome rotary engines awhile back. Seems they were powered by castor oil, and had the unfortunate side effect of giving pilots the ol' Montezuma's Revenge via their inhalation of the fumes. According to legend, as soon as a pilot would touch down on the ol' aerodrome, they'd make a bee-line for the latrine. Can you say "Ace In The Hole"?


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 8, 2009)

akennyd said:


> Thanks to ALL for the very civil discussion about oils, it's been better and more informative than I imagined it would be!
> 
> I'm still weighing my future oil choice and I'll probably be trying more than just one but Klotz will be one of the first I try. Stopped by a motorhicky shop today but they only carried Kawasaki and Yamaha 2 stroke oils. No Klotz and no Amsoil.
> 
> ...



My list of the best syn 2 cycle oils on the market.

motul 800 2t
Silkolean PRO 2 SX
Stihl Ultra
Maxima Formula K2
Klotz R50
Klotz Supertechinplate
Bel-Ray H1R


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## taddat (Oct 8, 2009)

*Klotz guy update*



TRI955 said:


> What ever happened to our Klotz guy??? He was a member, Brad help me out....



Rick at Klotzlubemn. $9.00 per qt+shipping for R-50. I know he has been busy with getting oil out to the snowmobile crowd. The weather gods are talking "snow" in Minnesota soon. If you have any questions about Klotz, he is full of good info. I'm not an oil expert but I have been running Klotz from Rick in my cars, trucks, sleds, and saws for years with no problems.


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## rms61moparman (Oct 8, 2009)

akennyd said:


> I know there are a few on here that run Klotz oils. Simple question: Why?




Because Andyshine77 told me to!

Anyone who has stock saws run as strong as his do MUST know what he's talking about!!!


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 8, 2009)

rms61moparman said:


> Because Andyshine77 told me to!
> 
> Anyone who has stock saws run as strong as his do MUST know what he's talking about!!!



lol:yourock::hmm3grin2orange:


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## 9050lx (Oct 8, 2009)

Ran Klotz in my air-cooled twin cylinder reed valve Yamaha RD-350(1975) street bike in the 70's Never any issues and ran clean.Ran the crap out of that poor thing.Used to pull nice wheelies in the first five gears. FUN FUN FUN when youre 15 and have a new license! I put almost 40,000 miles on that bike before i traded it for a dirt bike.Pretty good longetivity for a two stroke that made lots of RPM's.I do believe that motor was a direct descendant of the famous TZ road racers.


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## Tzed250 (Oct 9, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I use it because of its untarnished reputation and local availability. I also use it because it offers the protection of castor bean oil with the cleanliness of a full synthetic.





blsnelling said:


> Check out their tech sheets. BeNOL, Super TechniPlate, R 50. The R50 matches the film strength and flash point of Benol, yet is cleaner burning than either Benol or Super Techniplate. Plus no cold weather seperation concerns like you have with castor oil.
> 
> The castor isn't necessarily messy, just not needed and may have cold weather seperation issues.





WoodChucker81 said:


> I run R50 myself. I'm pretty sure that the Super Techniplate has 20% of Klotz Beanol in it - hence the castor.
> 
> I run the R50 mainly because I'm just burning gasoline (obviously) and not methanol or alcohol. I've run the Super numerous times as well. I never really noticed a difference between Super Techniplate and R50 - in 93 Octane gas both oils are practically the same. You'd probably need 100 octane + to really notice a difference.....
> 
> ...





Andyshine77 said:


> I pretty much agree with what's been said, you really can't go wrong with the top of the line syntheti ester oils. I run klotz because it runs clean. It's an ester synthetic, so it has the film strength I want, and it smells good. Super Techniplate is a good oil, but for every day use I prefer an oil without castor in it.





Andyshine77 said:


> R50 has no castor oil in it, it's a full ester synthetic. Benol is 100% castor oil and Supertechinplate is a blend of 20% castor and 80% synthetic. All of these oils will work fine in a saw, but in the long haul full castor oil like Benol will eventually gum things up a bit. Supertechinplate would likely never give you any issues.






Something that has not been metioned here is the *why* of running Castor oil or a Castor blend. Most lubrication is made up of polymer chains. For most oils these chains begin to break down in the presence of extreme heat. When the chains break down they provide less protection. The thing that sets Castor oil apart is the fact that under extreme heat the polymer chains actually grow. When a two-stroke is under extreme stress the temps can rise very quickly and the Castor oil responds to that need. This is why Castor blends are still very popular in racing, and especially with air cooled engines. The AC two-stroke can have temps go out of control quickly, and the bean oil helps to prevent seizure.

99% of the time the extra protection provided by natures little bean is not needed, but if you happen to slip into that last 1% you will be glad you had it.






9050lx said:


> Ran Klotz in my air-cooled twin cylinder reed valve Yamaha RD-350(1975) street bike in the 70's Never any issues and ran clean.Ran the crap out of that poor thing.Used to pull nice wheelies in the first five gears. FUN FUN FUN when youre 15 and have a new license! I put almost 40,000 miles on that bike before i traded it for a dirt bike.Pretty good longetivity for a two stroke that made lots of RPM's.I do believe that motor was a direct descendant of the famous TZ road racers.






The RD-350 was actually descended from the R-5. The R-5 has its roots in the TD and TR series of production racers, built in the '60s and early '70s. The TZ series started in 1973, bringing liquid cooling to the game and going on to be one of the most successful racing machines ever made. 

For decades the only oil specified in the TZ owners manual was Castrol R30...

30 weight castor oil.




.


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## 9050lx (Oct 9, 2009)

Not that many guys ran castor oil in the 70's that I recall.I think most of us used Belray in our dirt bikes.I think fouled plugs were the issue.The RD was an evolution of the R5 obviously.What I was trying recall were the road racing motorcycles of the late 60's and early 70's made by Yamaha.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 9, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Something that has not been metioned here is the *why* of running Castor oil or a Castor blend. Most lubrication is made up of polymer chains. For most oils these chains begin to break down in the presence of extreme heat. When the chains break down they provide less protection. The thing that sets Castor oil apart is the fact that under extreme heat the polymer chains actually grow. When a two-stroke is under extreme stress the temps can rise very quickly and the Castor oil responds to that need. This is why Castor blends are still very popular in racing, and especially with air cooled engines. The AC two-stroke can have temps go out of control quickly, and the bean oil helps to prevent seizure.
> 
> 99% of the time the extra protection provided by natures little bean is not needed, but if you happen to slip into that last 1% you will be glad you had it.
> 
> ...



Very good and valid points. Like you said Castor oil does provide the best protection. However I'm sure we both agree that it is probably not the best idea to use caster oil under normal work applications.


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## Tzed250 (Oct 9, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> Very good and valid points. Like you said Castor oil does provide the best protection. However I'm sure we both agree that it is probably not the best idea to use caster oil under normal work applications.






Pure castor, no. Some castor, such as Super Techniplate, maybe. 

I run a mad scientist mix. Stihl Ultra mixed at 50:1, with 1 oz. per gallon Super Techniplate mixed in. Works out to about 36:1.

Here is a pic of the combustion chamber from my 660 after about 8 tanks of mix.









...notice my semi-indexed spark plug


Am I in another oil thread..?.


.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 9, 2009)

LOL.

That cylinder does look good. I hear Klotz super, and 927 both run pretty clean, I've ran super without any issues. Now if you want smell, run Supertechinplate.


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## J.W Younger (Oct 9, 2009)

I have not tried the r-50 but from what I,ve read here it seems like good enough.I have ran the klotz brand nitropropane in my bracket car. Smells real fruity.Anyone here ever ran nitropropane in a saw? Best I remember its about 30%
oxygen by weight so the mixture would have too be richened up .


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## Boogieman142 (Oct 12, 2009)

troutfisher said:


> Klotz makes oil that will blend with alcohol, most oils won't.




Yea, I think I've discussed this with you before. The reason I started using it, to mix with the 10% ethanol. The other reason is because I like the smell and the eye burning sensation while operating 3 or 4 saws on it at 32:1 in close proximity. I can say that I timed the cuts before an after using it and the saw does cut faster. P.s. I use the super techiplate.


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## gonecountry (Oct 13, 2009)

*Klotz 50:1 or R50*

I was on the klotzlube site and seen they have a oil they call 50:1 I've compared the spec sheets with the R-50 but dont really know what I'm comparing. Is there a reason the R50 would be anybetter than the 50:1 or vise versa

I havent seen the 50:1 Klotz mentioned on here yet
Spec sheets

Klotz 50:1http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=62&submit2=View

R-50http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=48&submit2=View


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 13, 2009)

The good thing about castor oil is that if you get bound up you can drink some of it yourself.


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## blsnelling (Oct 13, 2009)

gonecountry said:


> I was on the klotzlube site and seen they have a oil they call 50:1 I've compared the spec sheets with the R-50 but dont really know what I'm comparing. Is there a reason the R50 would be anybetter than the 50:1 or vise versa
> 
> I havent seen the 50:1 Klotz mentioned on here yet
> Spec sheets
> ...



Those would not be the same oil. Look at the film strength. I'm not familiar with the 50:1 oil.


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## cpr (Oct 13, 2009)

Purely anecdotal thing yesterday, but I ran a weed whip and leaf blower on Stihl Ultra and got the dreaded headache some have mentioned. Pounded away for hours after running the *** for less than 1 hour. Equipment ran fine, but I didn't after that.


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## gonecountry (Oct 13, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Those would not be the same oil. Look at the film strength. I'm not familiar with the 50:1 oil.



Didnt figure they were the same Just wondering if the 50:1 is good enough should availbility be better than the r-50. In fact I had never heard of it around here before.

Just checked with a motorcyle shop its in their catolog but they have never orderd it before and it would have to be brought in from the US.


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## Knuckles (Oct 13, 2009)

Not to hi-jack, but I run Maxima Castor 927 in all my *** @ about 46:1 without any issues. Klotz isn't carried anymore by any of the local MX shops around here (damn 4-strokes) & I'm not paying shipping. This is good stuff.


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## ray benson (Oct 13, 2009)

Just be careful with that Maxima 927, temperatures below 35ºF separation may occur.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Oct 13, 2009)

Hmmm. Some of you have mentioned that the R-50 is good with alcohol, but the site says, "Not alcohol compatible."

http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail.asp?prod=KL-104_Quart&cat=4


So, what's the deal? Are we talking about two different things? Like the ethanol we get at the gas pump vs. running pure alcohol for racing?


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## cpr (Oct 13, 2009)

Use Super Techniplate with the ethanol blends. R50 with 100% gas.


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## csx7006 (Oct 13, 2009)

Where's Gary?


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 13, 2009)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Hmmm. Some of you have mentioned that the R-50 is good with alcohol, but the site says, "Not alcohol compatible."
> 
> http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail.asp?prod=KL-104_Quart&cat=4
> 
> ...



It's not good with 100% methanol alcohol, or Nitromethane "racing stuff", but it will mix fine with pump gas that has alcohol in it.


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## gonecountry (Oct 13, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> It's not good with 100% methanol alcohol, or Nitromethane, but it will mix fine with pump gas that has alcohol in it.



Thats what I was hoping to hear.

Around here I dont know if our gas ethanol in it I haven't heard either way. Our pumps dont say anything on them. Remember I am in Canada


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## blsnelling (Oct 13, 2009)

All gas around here has methanol in it. R50 is working great for myself, Andyshine77 and FATGUY. We all run it.


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## Henry G. (Oct 13, 2009)

Methanol? Not ethanol? Weird....
I agree R-50 is the schitt burns clean and saws seem to love it...using it about 40:1, plug is litely chocolate colored but not cruddy...


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## gonecountry (Oct 13, 2009)

Henry G. said:


> Methanol? Not ethanol? Weird....
> I agree R-50 is the schitt burns clean and saws seem to love it...using it about 40:1, plug is litely chocolate colored but not cruddy...



What is it in the fuel anyway ive seen it posted both ways. I thought your guys fuel has corn alcohol in it, which would be ETHANOL

Isnt METHANOL wood alcohol?

Maybe just confusion in typing?


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## Grits & Gravy (Oct 14, 2009)

Like many I run Klotz r50 or supertechniplate in most of my stuff nowadays but...

Years ago I was hardcore into the extreme side of 2 stroke 4 wheelers, mainly big bore 250r's as well as a few banshees from time too time.

Once the compression and rpm got kind of on the ragged edge I switched too Castrol A747 and I must say that it is without a doubt the finest oil I ever ran. I don't even know if it can still be had but 15 or however many years ago I ran it I had too order it from europe and it was SPENDY.


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## blsnelling (Oct 14, 2009)

Would that be any diffrent from Klotz Benol? It's a castor oil. I always ran Maxima Castor 927 in my Banshee. I believe it's very similiar to the Klotz Super Techniplate. 80% synthetic/20% degummed castor.


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## tdi-rick (Oct 14, 2009)

Grits & Gravy said:


> <snip>
> Once the compression and rpm got kind of on the ragged edge I switched too Castrol A747 and I must say that it is without a doubt the finest oil I ever ran. I don't even know if it can still be had but 15 or however many years ago I ran it I had too order it from europe and it was SPENDY.



Yep, A747 is still available, but has been superseded by XR77 as Castrol's premier 2 stroke lube.

Elf HTX909 and HTX979, Maxima 927, Motul 800 2T R & OR and Kart 2T, Silkolene Pro 2, Pro 2 SX and Pro KR2, Agip Racing 2T, even Mobil 1 Racing 2T (we can still buy that here) are all premium 2 stroke race oils that I'd have no hesitation in running. I've settled on Motul 800 2T Off Road as it's the closest decent oil I can get my grubby little hands on. I'm sure Motul 710 or even 510 or Castrol Power 1 Racing TTS would be fine too, but fuel mix is cheap to me in the scheme of things.

Like most boards certain brands/makes/people gain cult status for various reasons and Klotz R50 has become one of them, much like Stihl HP Ultra was/is for a fair while, but there's more than just one oil that works well in a saw.
Unless you are running an awfully fast hot saw no one here would have an engine approaching the specific output of a 100cc international kart engine that revs to 22,000RPM, or a 250cc GP road bike which is what those oils are designed for.


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## Grits & Gravy (Oct 14, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Would that be any diffrent from Klotz Benol? It's a castor oil. I always ran Maxima Castor 927 in my Banshee. I believe it's very similiar to the Klotz Super Techniplate. 80% synthetic/20% degummed castor.



You mean the Castrol A747?

It was a castor/synthetic blend, other than that I didn't really know much about it other than it being recommended too me by a tuner who worked on GP bikes at the time.

I was also messing with the KT 100 yamaha in Kart racing and those engines are quite demanding on the the oil as they spin quite a bit harder.. 18k+ rpm was normal for us.

I ran the 927 quite a bit, good oil but didn't run as clean as the a747 or either of the klotz r50/supertechniplate in my experience.


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## 056 kid (Oct 14, 2009)

Bel Ray is the only way. .


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## 056 kid (Oct 14, 2009)

A guy could read this thread and get the idea that all y'all are running 4 second funny cars


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## rms61moparman (Oct 14, 2009)

056 kid said:


> A guy could read this thread and get the idea that all y'all are running 4 second funny cars





That may be closer than you know!


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## akennyd (Oct 14, 2009)

Hey y'all,

This has turned into a very enjoyable thread IMHO!

I found a motorhicky shop yesterday that carries some of the more exotic 2 stroke oils. Unfortunately, Klotz is not one they normally carry...but...they do carry Maxima, Castrol, Redline, Motul and a couple of others. I decided to give the Motul 710 ester synthetic a try. They had 800 on hand but I chose to go with 710 because it was a little cheaper and had the JASO FD rating on the bottle. Was also tempted by the Castrol RS TTS.

Had just a few minutes to fuel up a small weedeater and my saw with it and give it a try. Seemed to run well and the smell reminded me of the Mobil 2t (still have about a third of a bottle of the Mobil), not exactly what I would call a pleasant smell but not the smokey smell of the dino Pennzoil I had been running. Still want to get my hands on some Klotz to give it a try.

Am I wasting my time, probably. Would the Pennz dino more than suffice for my 2 strokes, probably. Am I having fun in my own little twisted way, yes! But I am also curious to see if it runs cleaner. BTW, I changed my ratio from 32:1 to 40:1 based on some reading I've been doing that tells me that the synthetics do a much better job lubing the engine.

Kenny
John 3:16, 17, etc.,etc.,etc.


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## akennyd (Oct 14, 2009)

Tzed250,

Thanks for the 660 pic, do you have more? Does the piston look just as clean?

Kenny
John 3:16


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## Tzed250 (Oct 14, 2009)

Grits & Gravy said:


> You mean the Castrol A747?
> 
> It was a castor/synthetic blend, other than that I didn't really know much about it other than it being recommended too me by a tuner who worked on GP bikes at the time.
> 
> ...





Castrol A747 was the specified mix oil for Yamaha TZ250's in the 1990's. Not even Yamaha's own Yamalue R made the list.

It was good enough that the factories ran it in the $1,000,000 500cc GP roadracers.


.


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## Tzed250 (Oct 14, 2009)

akennyd said:


> Tzed250,
> 
> Thanks for the 660 pic, do you have more? Does the piston look just as clean?
> 
> ...



No pictures, but the piston had a thin light brown coating on the crown. It wiped off easily.


.


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## s13rymos (Oct 14, 2009)

Knuckles said:


> Not to hi-jack, but I run Maxima Castor 927 in all my *** @ about 46:1 without any issues. Klotz isn't carried anymore by any of the local MX shops around here (damn 4-strokes) & I'm not paying shipping. This is good stuff.




I think Toy Tech is a klotz dealer and they are in grantville.. just a hop and a skip away from you...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Oct 14, 2009)

gonecountry said:


> Thats what I was hoping to hear.
> 
> Around here I dont know if our gas ethanol in it I haven't heard either way. Our pumps dont say anything on them. Remember I am in Canada




That's not nice! In the U.S., it must be labeled clearly on the pump. At least we know what we are getting...


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## blsnelling (Oct 14, 2009)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> That's not nice! In the U.S., it must be labeled clearly on the pump. At least we know what we are getting...



That's not the case in all states. Ohio is one of them that does not have to label it. There are quite a few others


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## 67 Mustang (Oct 14, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> That's not the case in all states. Ohio is one of them that does not have to label it. There are quite a few others



:agree2: NC is another one that does not have to put a label on the pump. It's a state by state requirement. I'm fixin' to try some Avgas. Can't find any R50 around here to try though. Checked out several different cycle shops today. Kawasaki dealer tried to sell me on Motul. He said Klotz was old technology?


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## Henry G. (Oct 14, 2009)

Klotzlubemn man here will sell you a gallon. Pay via pal and it shows up about 3-5 days later USPS. Couldnt be easier. PM him. R50 is full synthetic, castor oil stuff is old tech, but I still love the smell!


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## 7600 (Oct 14, 2009)

I've ran pennzoil in my 044 for 13 years. Still runs good.


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## edisto (Oct 14, 2009)

gonecountry said:


> What is it in the fuel anyway ive seen it posted both ways. I thought your guys fuel has corn alcohol in it, which would be ETHANOL
> 
> Isnt METHANOL wood alcohol?
> 
> Maybe just confusion in typing?



Confusion in typing.

And isopropanol is wood alcohol.


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## 67 Mustang (Oct 14, 2009)

Henry G. said:


> Klotzlubemn man here will sell you a gallon. Pay via pal and it shows up about 3-5 days later USPS. Couldnt be easier. PM him. R50 is full synthetic, castor oil stuff is old tech, but I still love the smell!



Thanks, Henry! Thought I recalled a Klotz rep on here somewhere. Couldn't find him.


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## Nathan75 (Oct 14, 2009)

i have always thought Klotz makes great oil. Never had an issue. My only complaint is that the R50 smells like flowery soap when run in any of my saws. Definately not the "racey" smell I remember from the dirt bikes and 3wheelers. Runs good though.


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## dancan (Oct 14, 2009)

Nathan75 said:


> My only complaint is that the R50 smells like flowery soap when run in any of my saws. Definitely not the "racey" smell I remember from the dirt bikes and 3wheelers. Runs good though.



My wife complains about and hates the smell of 2 stroke on me after I've been cutting for the day , I'm gonna have to find some R50 to see if she'll like me when I come home !


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## benmyers (Oct 15, 2009)

The only bad experiences I've had with any Klotz oils have been with motocross bikes. Most people who have worked on a 2 stroke bike that has run Klotz for very long know what it does to the powervalves and anything else that doesn't experience comustion. It gums it up bad, and can be a pain. That being said, the stuff lubricates very, very well.


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## 9050lx (Oct 15, 2009)

At least with Caster oil when following other trail riders you could always determine their direction by staying on their "scent".Kinda makes you nauseaous after awhile though.


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## Knuckles (Oct 15, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Would that be any diffrent from Klotz Benol? It's a castor oil. I always ran Maxima Castor 927 in my Banshee. I believe it's very similiar to the Klotz Super Techniplate. 80% synthetic/20% degummed castor.



Yeah they're comparable. 927 isn't dyed though.



ray benson said:


> Just be careful with that Maxima 927, temperatures below 35ºF separation may occur.



No worries. Not much of a problem with pump gas. Becomes an issue with
100+ octane race fuel. Different spec. gravities and low temps cause the oil to gel and float on the fuel.



s13rymos said:


> I think Toy Tech is a klotz dealer and they are in grantville.. just a hop and a skip away from you...



Heck, I always forget about them. I do my MX dealings with Keeney in Lebanon. He carries Maxima oils.


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## akennyd (Oct 15, 2009)

*Ran the Motul 710 a bit today*

Hey y'all,

Ran the Motul 710 for a while today. What I noticed most was MUCH less smoke and less of a burning oil type of smell than I had been having with the Pennzoil. It was the type of day, wet and rainy with a calm wind, where smoke normally hangs low to the ground but there just wasn't enough smoke to cause a problem. My shirt also had much less smell than it normally does. Saw seemed to run fine, couldn't say it ran any better or any worse. Pulled the plug and it seemed cleaner than normal, less oily. The smell was also more pleasant than I remember from the Mobil 2t, was thinking it was the same when I first ran it but it isn't at all.

So far so good...

Kenny
John 3:16, 17


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## Grits & Gravy (Oct 16, 2009)

benmyers said:


> The only bad experiences I've had with any Klotz oils have been with motocross bikes. Most people who have worked on a 2 stroke bike that has run Klotz for very long know what it does to the powervalves and anything else that doesn't experience comustion. It gums it up bad, and can be a pain. That being said, the stuff lubricates very, very well.



That must have been Klotz Benol, or back in the day what people called "green label" Klotz, both of these were pretty much refined and degummed straight castor oil.

The Supertechniplate and R50 have been very clean running in my experience.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 16, 2009)

R50 is an ester syn, the cleanest burning oil money can buy.


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## Tzed250 (Oct 16, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> R50 is an ester syn, the cleanest burning oil money can buy.



I believe Stihl Ultra to be right there with it in cleanliness. A Castrol product.


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## brad1000s (Oct 16, 2009)

For what its worth i have sold 174 quarts and 47 pints of r50 so far this year. This is by far my best selling 2 smoke mix. I have ran this stuff w/ cam 2 race fuel (for my honda cr250) in my fs-66, 009l, jred 49sp, and other saws with minimal smoke. Great stuff


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## Trigger Man (Oct 16, 2009)

gonecountry said:


> Thats what I was hoping to hear.
> 
> Around here I dont know if our gas ethanol in it I haven't heard either way. Our pumps dont say anything on them. Remember I am in Canada



Pretty sure our gas is ethanol free for the time being GC


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## Jacob J. (Oct 16, 2009)

troutfisher said:


> Klotz makes oil that will blend with alcohol, most oils won't.



That's my reason...


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## ccicora (Oct 18, 2009)

I run through about 4-8 gal of klotz oil a year (does not include all the other products I use). My recommendations is use the correct oil for your application. And if you don't know which oil is right for you, call Jerid Booth Customer Sales for Klotz @ 260-490-0489 and that is the headquarters in Fort Wayne.


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## epicklein22 (Oct 18, 2009)

Here is a little known, but very nice oil company. I'm running the #455 right now. I'm digging it so far. It is a castor oil, but has been degummed, blends with methanol and has additives to prevent separation. Priced competitively too when I can find it (around 7 bucks a pint).

http://www.blendzall.com/

Up next for me in my oil test is R-50. I have ran super techniplate in the past and really enjoyed it.


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## grandpatractor (Oct 18, 2009)

I just read thru this whole thread and I have come to a conclusion.:monkey:




























I'm sticking with Amsoil Sabre.


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## rmihalek (Apr 28, 2010)

My conclusion: I'm switching to Supertechniplate when my stock of Mobil 2T runs out. I'm looking forward to the bean smell.


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## Ljute (Apr 28, 2010)

When I eat beans it don't smell so good.


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## Fog1965 (May 10, 2010)

I have been using Klotz for over 20 years now and never had any problems with it. I don't use the KL-100 as I don't care for the problems caused by castor. With the synthetics there is no need for castor, that is a carry over from the 30's when that was all they had. KL-200 is all synthetic and has none of the gumming issues you get with KL-100. 

Klotz R50 is a good oil, almost as good as KL-200. The website says that it is not compatible with alcohol. In talking with one of the guys at Klotz, that line was inserted for those guys that run methanol fueled 2 cycles. It will not mix with that much alcohol, but will mix with E10 gasoline. But, since I also use Klotz in my 2 cycle and 4 cycle model airplane engines, it has to mix with methanol and nitromethene - which is the reason for the KL-200. 

Fog
Gasoline is for washing part, Alcohol is for drinking, and Nitro is for racing...


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## J.Walker (May 10, 2010)

Is the KL-100 a Klotz product too?
I have been using R-50 but it was suggested that I use RL-100 for certain applications.


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## RiverRat2 (May 10, 2010)

redlinefever said:


> Alright this is what was told to me by a local dealer! Wondering if it is true or not he said[ quote that if you run klotz that u would in time build up residue or carbon behind the rings and eventually rings would not compress anymore and then you would need a rebuild] any truth to that guys i had a banshee and that is the only oil i would run in it they said it was the best u could by!



I say Bull Butter!!!!!!!!!!!!! on your local dealers comment!!!!!


been running it longer than most on here,,,,, never an oil related, or stuck ring problem,, All of my tear downs look great,,, oil on everything,,, well lubricated,,,





Jacob J. said:


> It mixes wit Alchohol,,,, That's my reason...



Ditto JJ!!!!!!


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## Fog1965 (May 11, 2010)

KL-100 is what they are calling Super Techniplate and KL-200 is the Original Techniplate. KL-100 is KL-200 with 20% castor in it. After having run engines with castor and pure synthetic, I can see no reason to run anything but pure synthetic. I have heard the same "stuff" that you should run KL-100 in the summer due to the heat - which is a crock, that engine gets hot all year long. I have raced when it was over 120 over the concrete and the air temp was 109 and never used anything but straight synthetic. The sole function of that EPA muffler is to make the engine hot. So, if R50 is working for you stay with it - just like I am staying with the KL-200, just ordered another gallon today. 

I would say that RiverRat2 is being too kind to that dealer, in Texas it is still bull "stuff". I would have to question said dealers knowledge of 2 cycle engines and oils. If you ran straight castor I can see that happening - but then you would deserve it too. There isn't anyway that can happen using KL-200 - you will melt the engine down before you get it hot enough to do that. Same with KL-100. Even with the EPA settings you won't see carbon build up. I have run 2 cycles harder than that dealer ever dreamed of and when the engines were torn down, they still looked new an shiny on the inside - no carbon. I sure wouldn't depend on that dealer for any engine work or advice on what to run. 

Fog


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## banshee67 (May 11, 2010)

nothing like the smell of burning castor oil 
i run supertechniplate in my 4 wheeler, love it, cant beat the smell


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## Ljute (May 11, 2010)

I tried the r50 and the smell made me sick almost.

Maxima 927 however would make a good men's cologne.


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## RiverRat2 (May 11, 2010)

Fog1965 said:


> *I would say that RiverRat2 is being too kind to that dealer, in Texas it is still bull "stuff". I would have to question said dealers knowledge of 2 cycle engines and oils.* If you ran straight castor I can see that happening - but then you would deserve it too. There isn't anyway that can happen using KL-200 - you will melt the engine down before you get it hot enough to do that. Same with KL-100. Even with the EPA settings you won't see carbon build up. I have run 2 cycles harder than that dealer ever dreamed of and when the engines were torn down, they still looked new an shiny on the inside - no carbon. I sure wouldn't depend on that dealer for any engine work or advice on what to run.
> 
> Fog



LOLOL!!!! I was just trying to be nice and not curse,,,, yes the teardowns are exteremly clean and as U said no carbon

@ DSRA (Deep South Racing Assoc.) Every one runs the R-50 (Klotz is one of our sponsors) with Sunoco 112 racing gasoline in outboard drag boats and have been for years,,, in fact Klotz is used in all classes We have 5 classes,,, stock, Lake racer, Modified production, pro gas, and unlimited,,,,

The Unlimited Class is allowed to use benol mixed w/R50 or if they choose the Super Techniplate,,,, they run Methanol or the Racing Gas plus Nitromethane Plus Nitrous,,,,, 

In my work saws I have usually run R50 with 93 non ethanol octane pump gas,,,

In my hot saws I run the 104 octane sunoco, and 110LL,,,,

However,,, in the last month our county just adopted all fuel to use the 10% ethanol curse

so I am going to use the 110LL exclusively even in my work saws from here on Out un less I can find the non ethanol 93 

I have used the Stihl Ultra and its lubricity is excellent and is very clean/carbon free,,,,

The Mobil 2T is/was great stuff 2!!!!! BTW


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (May 11, 2010)

I've been thinking about using the R-50 but just don't know where to get it around here. So for now I run the stihl ultra.


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## rms61moparman (May 11, 2010)

ms460woodchuck said:


> I've been thinking about using the R-50 but just don't know where to get it around here. So for now I run the stihl ultra.



Andyshine77 should be able to point you in the right direction.
Shoot him a PM.


Mike


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## banshee67 (May 11, 2010)

rockymountainatv sells big jugs of oil pretty cheap usually, they have all the popular klotz and all that


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (May 11, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> rockymountainatv sells big jugs of oil pretty cheap usually, they have all the popular klotz and all that



it would be nice to walk into a local store and buy some without shipping though. Thanks for the info though.


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## Ljute (May 11, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> rockymountainatv sells big jugs of oil pretty cheap usually, they have all the popular klotz and all that



That's where I get my Maxima, and also Klotz and Motul in the past.

I was at my local ACE Hardware and was surprised to see that they had 2 dusty 16oz. bottles of Maxima 927 on a shelf, for $12.97! It's $9.99 at rockmountain, but need to factor in shipping. 

Wonder if that stuff can go bad with age?


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## Andyshine77 (May 12, 2010)

klotz R50, Maxima K2, Motul 800 2T, Silkolene pro 2 SX, and ELF's sport 2 competition, are all top of the line ester synthetic oils. Pick one of these oils and you will never have a lubrication or carbon issue. you can find these oils at your local motorcycle shop. Ester oils are #1 when it comes to maxim protection in a 2 cycle engine.... Stihl's Ultra isn't a bad oil by any stretch of the imagination, if you like it keep running it, but so far I like what I've seen from Klotz R50 and Makima K2.


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## Miles86 (May 14, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> klotz R50, Maxima K2, Motul 800 2T, Silkolene pro 2 SX, and ELF's sport 2 competition, are all top of the line ester synthetic oils. Pick one of these oils and you will never have a lubrication or carbon issue. you can find these oils at your local motorcycle shop. Ester oils are #1 when it comes to maxim protection in a 2 cycle engine.... Stihl's Ultra isn't a bad oil by any stretch of the imagination, if you like it keep running it, but so far I like what I've seen from Klotz R50 and Makima K2.



Yes, Andyshine77 has the good list, here, I'd add BelRay H1R too. I'm using (ratio 20:1) Klotz Original Techniplate and Klotz Benol 50/50 in the handheld leaf Blower (old Ryobi 31cc 1996) since March and so far no fouled plugs, starts 1 pull, I've even got it set a little rich and only a slight soft brown carbon on piston top no varnish on skirt rings are free. Will check again in November. Smells so good I want to drink it. I just do this experiments mostly out of curiosity. If the leaf blower looks OK them I'm going with this in everything.


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