# How to know if a dead tree is safe to fell?



## DeanBrown3D (Jul 10, 2006)

I am about to take down a tree for a friend and its been dead for at least 2 years now. Half of one side is eaten away by something, on the lean side, to around 5 feet tall, then it appears solid and untouched. I was going to fell it by cutting just above this point, where it seems to be solid. 

I guess I want to know how many years dead makes a really dangerous tree throughout.

Thanks

Dean


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## computeruser (Jul 10, 2006)

I don't think that there is any particular rule that connects time to safety. Tree species, cause of death, weather conditions, blah blah blah.

In my experience, the most notable characteristic of a dead tree is that it does not hinge well. As such, unless the tree is tiny and/or it is absolutely impossible to do so, I always fell dead trees under rope tension, sometimes using the a vehicle to pull it. That way even if it doesn't hinge at all, it can only fall in one direction.

Any pictures of the tree in question?


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## clearance (Jul 10, 2006)

First I was going to say "if you have to ask" but, you are going to fall it from 5' up? I have done stuff like that as well, with 288 as high as I could, it isn't advised. Every tree is different, some live trees are worse than some dead trees ( live hemlock thats a hollow pipe vs. stone cold red cedar that is solid as new ). Whats it leaning at? The rot is on the lean side, ok, if there is nothing to hit can you just fall it with the lean?


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## 911crash (Jul 10, 2006)

i would put a line on it with a wide face and cut. dont put to much tension on line otherwise it might fail on you(the tree)


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## DeanBrown3D (Jul 10, 2006)

The good point is that it is leaning exactly where I want it to fall, and the rot is in that same direction, toward the lean.


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## dakota (Jul 10, 2006)

Like Clearance hinted at, cutting a notch 5' up is not really advised - unless you're a starting center in the NBA. How necessary is it? Are you sure that that spot is any better then a little lower?


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## DeanBrown3D (Jul 10, 2006)

I may stand on a step ladder. Its not going to fall back, the lean is too strong.


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## smokechase II (Jul 11, 2006)

*high faller*

How much snow does Princeton NJ get?

Well, if the rot is on the side that it is leaning toward and that is also the direction you like it to fall.

Probably not a big deal.
Then again, life is complicated. So are many trees.
Got any photos?


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## Sprig (Jul 11, 2006)

Personaly I'd probably just fall it at a normal level, being very cautious of potential widow-makers etc, as it seems that going higher would create an unstable fall (ie. kickback/jilpoke/stem push, unpredictable directional type things, how fast can u run). Cynche (sic) the upper portion above your cuts to prevent unexpected splits, if need be the bottom of the cut zone too. Put your face cut through the tree centering the rotted parts and using the sides of it (the good wood) as two hinges....[[[.....]]], carefully backcut and run away. This is how I would tackle it and probably very wrong, i might die. The biggest concern I'd have is what is going to fall (dead branches) on you. I have several similar trees to do soon here and the scariest one has been dead for at least three years, there are big branches 100+ up and I intend to be very gentle (no wedging) and have a good lookout (up?). Wear your PPG, plan ahead, is all I can say. There are very many experienced fallers here and I am sure they will chime in eventually.
Good, safe, falling. I do not profess to be an expert but I am still alive, be safe man.



Serge

My edit. Get someone who knows their stuff to have a look-see.


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## trevmcrev (Jul 11, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> I may stand on a step ladder. Its not going to fall back, the lean is too strong.



Do not try it from a ladder. Do it at normal height, the lean will bring it down.

Far safer. If you feel it must be felled from higher up i know id feel safer in a harness on a flipline with saw on a lanyard than on a ladder.

Trev


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## bobby big wood (Jul 11, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> I am about to take down a tree for a friend and its been dead for at least 2 years now. Half of one side is eaten away by something, on the lean side, to around 5 feet tall, then it appears solid and untouched. I was going to fell it by cutting just above this point, where it seems to be solid.
> 
> I guess I want to know how many years dead makes a really dangerous tree throughout.
> 
> ...


if its leaning in the direction you want it to fall then do not rope it! If the rotted side of the tree faces, as you say in the direction you wish to fell it, then put a shallow gob into the rotted wood of a fifth to a quarter of the trees overall diameter. then do your felling cut leaving 3 times more hinge than you would healthy wood. Use felling wedges to send the tree over and be on your toes all the time monitering the trees reaction...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jul 11, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> I may stand on a step ladder. Its not going to fall back, the lean is too strong.




I'm no pro, so maybe I should just stay out of this, but I know it's awfully hard to sprint away when your starting block is a ladder.


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## DeanBrown3D (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks all, its all good stuff to consider. I'll try to get a pic, but I dunno if the owner has a digi cam, and I wont be there any time soon. It seems solid enough though. I think the owner said its been dead only a couple of years.


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## clearance (Jul 11, 2006)

Dean just fall it, undercut, backcut, look up, maybe have a spotter who can give you a tug, have a couple of decent escape paths. Sometimes dead trees break up as they are going over, beware. Do not stand on a freakin ladder, best wishes.


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## 1CallLandscape (Jul 11, 2006)

clearence, well said....Dont even try to stand on a ladder while cutting . your just asking for trouble. Pictures would definately help in defining the remedy to this tree.

my advice is : put a rope on it with light to medium tension, do your face cut , if the tree is large enoughf and you are experienced do a bore cut leaving a larger hinge than normal ( 1"/ 12" diameter) this will give you a pretty good indication on how rotten the inside is. load'er up using two wedges and cut the back piece of your tree.....boom she should come right down.

-mike


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## DeanBrown3D (Jul 11, 2006)

Ok I cant get a pic. The front of the tree (meaning when its leaning 5 - 10 degrees and where I want it to go) is eaten 1/2 way through by something and there's a large scar there now. This is centered on exactly where I would normally cut at a comfortable position, scar maybe 3-5 feet high. Above there its solid and fully round. Diameter is around 20-22".

So if I dont use a ladder, do I reach up to 6 feet with a 460 overhead, or cut it in the middle of the scar? I could bore cut just behind the center of the scar leaving a couple of inches, and work backwards? Its leaning but I don't think it will barber chair if I do this.


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## clearance (Jul 12, 2006)

Don't be doing that bore stuff, no need, its not a real leaner cause it only leans a little, like most trees. Put in the undercut at a comfortable level, probably waist height so you can look up. Make sure your saw is full and sharp, that you are wearing all your ppe and that you have somewhere to run. The tree will go the way it leans, they always do unless they are interfered with (dutchman for example). Look up as much as you can, especially on the backcut, nice to have a spotter. Sprig has good things to say as well, try not to intellectualize this too much, it isn't rocket science, do what works.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jul 12, 2006)

Can you cut BELOW the scar?


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## squisher (Jul 12, 2006)

Absolutely do not cut above the suspected weak point of the tree. As the tree hinges over this could cause it to fail below your cuts. As I'm sure most on this sight have done I've killed more than my fair share of trees and generally if it's still standing their will be enough strength left in the tree to atleast fall it with the lean with a properly done undercut and backcut.


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## DeanBrown3D (Jul 12, 2006)

So a small wedge in the middle of the scar, and then regular back cut? Sounds like a decent plan. The only hesitation is that I would normally only wedge in around 1/3 to 1/2 of the width of the tree, and the scar is already 1/2 way through.


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## DeanBrown3D (Jul 12, 2006)

This is what it appears to look like from the side, leaning left.


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 12, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> This is what it appears to look like from the side, leaning left.




If I follow that right the rotted portion is right where the undercut notch would go. If so, why notch it at all? they rot has taken care of the the 'folding' clearance as the tree goes over. Looks like just a normal back cut would do the job. But then I am far from a professional so...

Harry K


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## beowulf343 (Jul 12, 2006)

It looks like you have a couple of feet of decent trunk under the scar. I'd make my notch and backcut there. Otherwise make your notch right on the scar. But don't try cutting over your head or off a ladder-too dangerous. And if you do attach a rope to it, don't pull on it with a truck. Once had a similar tree in which I set a rope running to my double blocks because it leaned the wrong way. As I was tensioning up the rope with my blocks, it snapped right off and I hadn't even made a cut! Fortunately it fell the right way but the trunk ended up being in even worse shape than it looked. Just be careful.


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## Sprig (Jul 12, 2006)

turnkey4099 said:


> If I follow that right the rotted portion is right where the undercut notch would go. If so, why notch it at all? they rot has taken care of the the 'folding' clearance as the tree goes over. Looks like just a normal back cut would do the job. But then I am far from a professional so...
> 
> Harry K



As I first said, you may want to consider a small notching where the face cut would normally be, either side in line frm side to side,direction, then back cut normally. I totally agree with all advice about trying to cut above the suspicious area, just don't do it. The small cuts on either side (and don't go back far a few inches maybe), will help direct the fall and most importantly will relieve the stress at the joint and lessening the chance of adverse splitting on the sides of the stump as you are running away. I try to close my eyes and imagine potential stresses and the worst that could happen, act accordingly. As some above^^ have pointed out about cutting above rot like this you run the risk of collapse/ splits/bad stuff happening. The tree is still standing and, if you can get below this and fall it normally, that I think is your safest bet. Ladders no, no ladders! And when your spotter yells 'stuff is coming down!' run in the indicated direction, don't look up to see where its coming from because I think that by the time you see it you're toast. Think it out and just do it.

My 0.024 worth fer the day. (adjusted for today's inflation) 


;cheers:

Serge


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## smokechase II (Jul 12, 2006)

*face and back cut*

You may not need to do anything to achieve an appropriate face.

Or you may have to only do a minimal cut to 'complete' the face.

A standard back cut is the best bet in rot situations.
Boring could well bring about a pinched bar, with inadequate support from rotten wood collapsing on the bar and chain.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 5, 2006)

Dean, whatever happened on this?


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## Diesel JD (Aug 6, 2006)

Hey.. I'm not a pro, but in my firewood business I have cut many dead trees in the woods. First off, being on teh ladder could get you killed, second you probably don't want to put much rope tension on a snag unless your goal is to pull it over without cutting it. Last, I think the safest thing to do is make your cuts below the scar. Put a rope on it but don't have the other guy pull it until you're making your backcut. be careful and it is a real good idea to wear a helmet and have at least 2 escape lanes. Good luck,
J.D.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 6, 2006)

*Blue*

I'm still waiting for the guy to move the kids play set. Tree is still standing!

Dean


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## turnkey4099 (Aug 6, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> I'm still waiting for the guy to move the kids play set. Tree is still standing!
> 
> Dean



Treeco and someone else mentioned it. I do it on any tree with a significant lean. Log chain wrap above my cuts. Prevents barber chair. It has only saved my butt once for certain (a couple other times I think) but once is all it takes. In your case it is probably not needed but what can it hurt?

Harry K


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## Ekka (Aug 6, 2006)

Hey, when you do get around to it we want pics or vid thanks.


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## xtremetrees (Aug 7, 2006)

You know if a trees to dead to climb if it starts breaking off and falling on climber as he goes up. I always shake the tree imma put down.
Its ok just climb them dead ones too..:monkey:

And then you get old and you just keep on climbing um. Like last week lightening struck white oak. It wasw so lightening struck that after I cut all the limbs leaning to the right from phototropism it released all the pressure and you clould have stuck your leg thru the tree from the lightening explosion down below. Ligthening struck the tree in half and it still helpd.

Today thou was a Sudden Oak Death victum. Some smoke came off the rope na dfun was had by all.


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## Ekka (Aug 7, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Some smoke came off the rope na dfun was had by all.



You should give up smoking, bad for your health.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## xtremetrees (Aug 7, 2006)

I looked at a pine this week imma bid at 3 grand to haul off. Its so scary my wife wont look at jobs with me anymore.!:bang:


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## Ekka (Aug 7, 2006)

well, get some video and stuff, I'll help ya.

Video, pics etc, no worries, only TM's formats have beaten me thus far.  He's got some weird files!


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