# Do tree injections make $?



## Jace (Oct 17, 2008)

I wanted to get some experienced input on this subject. I have a tree service, and have been debating on getting into tree injecting. Is it very profitable? I live in a 12,500 population town, (in the midwestern chapter) with no big cities around. Seems most around here just want their trees trimmed, or removed, no "tree doctoring" taking place that I know of. 

How does tree injection profit compare to trimming and removal profit, is there much of a comparison? Thanks for any input.


----------



## BCMA (Oct 17, 2008)

Jace said:


> I wanted to get some experienced input on this subject. I have a tree service, and have been debating on getting into tree injecting. Is it very profitable? I live in a 12,500 population town, (in the midwestern chapter) with no big cities around. Seems most around here just want their trees trimmed, or removed, no "tree doctoring" taking place that I know of.
> 
> How does tree injection profit compare to trimming and removal profit, is there much of a comparison? Thanks for any input.



Consider looking at it in a different way. Rather than approaching your business and services from the standpoint- “does it make money”, ask yourself, is there a need- and do I want to add this service to my business? Do I have the time and employees to support this service? Do I have the knowledge and experience to do a quality job?

Making money and being a profitable business is critical to staying in business. Plant health care/pest management/tree health issues is a completely different aspect of the tree care business. Are you prepared to add this service to your business and do it right?

Plant health care does make money if you charge the proper amount. It can add more complication to your business if you are not set up to handle it.


----------



## Ed Roland (Oct 17, 2008)

http://www.entomology.umn.edu/cues/Web/032TreeInjectionsImplants.pdf


----------



## JTinaTree (Oct 17, 2008)

I have thought of this before as well, mainly because Sweet Gums grow like weeds here. I have a mature one in my yard that I climb on a regular basis, right now they are growing the anoying balls/flowers, and they will hold them most of the winter and drop in the spring,,

Tree Tech makes a injection called sniper that stops ball growth. I have waited to late to inject my own this year. I may offer a service next year for people to eliminate the ball growth instead of destroying the tree by removing it..


----------



## Jace (Oct 18, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Consider looking at it in a different way. Rather than approaching your business and services from the standpoint- “does it make money”, ask yourself, is there a need- and do I want to add this service to my business? Do I have the time and employees to support this service? Do I have the knowledge and experience to do a quality job?
> 
> Making money and being a profitable business is critical to staying in business. Plant health care/pest management/tree health issues is a completely different aspect of the tree care business. Are you prepared to add this service to your business and do it right?
> 
> Plant health care does make money if you charge the proper amount. It can add more complication to your business if you are not set up to handle it.




I want my tree service to "care about the health of people's trees", rather than just in and out trimming and removal to make a buck. I only have 1 guy helpin me right now, cause work is slow. I desire to stay ahead of other local tree services, and thot this could help to do that. But also, if there's no profit in it, I'm not gonna waiste my time. As far as being "set-up" for it, I'm sure I'm lacking especially in the "proper equip." area, I dont feel a crew is probly required tho, is it? I figure the "health" part of tree care could fill in slow time as well. Not sure what all it would take as far as $ (ouside of skills), to get more into health care.


----------



## mini14 (Oct 18, 2008)

yes they are profitable, for the installer not the tree, they do more harm then good...but if thats your thing go for it, a few years ago it was all the rage around here, but now i never c them used, guess cauz they dont work on maples with verticillum.....what were they thinking??? after all isnt a certified arborist supposed to be an expert...if u want to destroy your credibility by all means do it...in the long run when the tree dies anyway, i dont think customers will be so inclined to belive u.


----------



## pdqdl (Oct 18, 2008)

Rather than trying to make money with injections, try to solve each tree problem you encounter by doing the research on that specific problem. If injections look like the best treatment, then see if there is enough of that type of work in your area to pay for the equipment and your time.

If not, consider borrowing the equipment or subbing the work to someone else.


----------



## lxt (Oct 18, 2008)

this is an area of tree care thats kinda scary!! you start injecting to cure then the home owner is gonna hold you liable if it fails! if you are injecting to promote growth/greener canopy, etc... then might not be so bad.

before getting into this type of PHC check to make sure your insurance covers you for such & get a good contract drawn up with some form of disclaimer.......however when the H.O. reads the disclaimer they will probably pass on your providing this service!!

A guy down my way got into a little trouble over just what you are thinking about venturing into!


LXT................


----------



## Jace (Oct 18, 2008)

I appreciate all the good advice, and will think and weigh the options. Thanks.

Also, I don't want to cause more harm to the trees by drilling them, while trying to correct another problem. How harmful are injections? I'm sure the companies that sell the equip. would probably tell me "Not harmful at all".


----------



## pdqdl (Oct 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> this is an area of tree care thats kinda scary!! you start injecting to cure then the home owner is gonna hold you liable if it fails! if you are injecting to promote growth/greener canopy, etc... then might not be so bad.
> 
> before getting into this type of PHC check to make sure your insurance covers you for such & get a good contract drawn up with some form of disclaimer.......however when the H.O. reads the disclaimer they will probably pass on your providing this service!!
> 
> ...




In Kansas & Missouri, you MUST have a license to do any "pesticide" treatments, which means ANY KIND OF TREATMENT except fertilizer. The states check insurance very carefully, every year before renewing your license. So insurance wouldn't be an issue, unless you worked without a license.

Liability for failure to cure: nonsense! Unless you were dumb enough to promise a cure. It's just like going to the doctor, there is no liability to the Dr. unless he does something stupid, and is shown to be "negligent". Even then, it takes a pack of lawyers and a lot of time. 

I don't see that happening to a tree/turf operator unless they do something dumb like kill off every plant they come near on a property. [That's easy to do if you don't know what you are doing!]

Doing ANY work for a litigious lawyer definitely increases the risk. Lawyers should be prohibited by their code of conduct from filing lawsuits on their own behalf, IMO.


----------



## Jace (Oct 19, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> In Kansas & Missouri, you *MUST have a license to do any "pesticide" treatments*, which means ANY KIND OF TREATMENT except fertilizer. The states check insurance very carefully, every year before renewing your license. So insurance wouldn't be an issue, unless you worked without a license.
> 
> Liability for failure to cure: nonsense! Unless you were dumb enough to promise a cure. It's just like going to the doctor, there is no liability to the Dr. unless he does something stupid, and is shown to be "negligent". Even then, it takes a pack of lawyers and a lot of time.
> 
> ...



I've thot about pursuing the licence, but haven't yet because I'm not convinced that I would get much work in the area of "tree health care" (like injections, pesticides...)in this area, enuff to justify the time and money to attain the licence and equipment. I haven't figured out how to really know for sure how much "desired" need is out there for "tree health" type of service in my town, and surrounding area.


----------



## BCMA (Oct 19, 2008)

Jace said:


> I've thot about pursuing the licence, but haven't yet because I'm not convinced that I would get much work in the area of "tree health care" (like injections, pesticides...)in this area, enuff to justify the time and money to attain the licence and equipment. I haven't figured out how to really know for sure how much "desired" need is out there for "tree health" type of service in my town, and surrounding area.



If you have the time, I would suggest you pursue the license. It’s not really that hard to obtain. This will give you part of the legal requirements should you decide to do some pest management. It will also boost your professional standing, and it will enrich you personally as you learn more about your profession and the care of trees. If you do not have the license, you are stuck and cannot go forward.

If the supposed need for tree health services is not evident in your community, then the way I see it, you have an excellent opportunity to educate your clientele about proper tree care, the services you provide, and create the need. The need is probably there. In the community, the education of proper tree care and economics of hiring those services may be the limiting factor.


----------



## lxt (Oct 19, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> In Kansas & Missouri, you MUST have a license to do any "pesticide" treatments, which means ANY KIND OF TREATMENT except fertilizer. The states check insurance very carefully, every year before renewing your license. So insurance wouldn't be an issue, unless you worked without a license.
> 
> Liability for failure to cure: nonsense! Unless you were dumb enough to promise a cure. It's just like going to the doctor, there is no liability to the Dr. unless he does something stupid, and is shown to be "negligent". Even then, it takes a pack of lawyers and a lot of time.
> 
> ...



License.....depends on the state, micro-injections if this is what you are referring to may/maynot fall under the guidelines of pest/fert. license application, again depending on your state!

and I garauntee if a home owner hires you to inject for a specific reason, pays you hundreds of dollars & the specimen in question shows no difference in health or declines from such injection YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE!!

BTW.....doctors have this insurance called "medical malpractice insurance" thus saving them when they screw up! I dont know if they sell "arborist malpractice ins." 

Local guy injected tree, tree died, penn state co-op could not say he was at fault or not, however......he was there, provided a service and was found liable! point is, if a H.O wants to find fault they can and in PA have up to 2 yrs to file a claim, depends on your state....be careful!


LXT.......


----------



## BCMA (Oct 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> BTW.....doctors have this insurance called "medical malpractice insurance" thus saving them when they screw up! I dont know if they sell "arborist malpractice ins."
> 
> LXT.......



It’s called “Errors and Omissions”, or E&O. Nowadays, anyone who gives recommendations concerning tree care, or who consults for hire, should carry E&O coverage in their insurance policy.

And of course, everyone how does tree work is properly licensed and insured…right?


----------



## Jace (Oct 19, 2008)

So many blasted complications here in good ol' 2008.

Guess I'd have to give them some proof of my credentials, then have them sign something that says I'm doing my best, from what I've studied in the tree health care field , but theres no promises or guarantees as to the end result concerning the health of the tree being treated. If they sign it, hopefully I'm in the clear if the tree continues to decline, and even dies.

That, and I suppose I'd need to carry that added expence of E&O insurance. Insurance this, insurance that. Good grief. Expense?


----------



## BC WetCoast (Oct 20, 2008)

If you are going to do plant health care, you need to know the common insects and diseases of your area. There are probably only about 20-30 that are common enough to have treatment protocols developed and registered for use.

Generally, around here, there is only one insect and one disease for each tree species that we can treat. This doesn't mean there aren't more, but only a few that we have products that are registered for use.

So, once you know what the probable pests and treatments are, you can determine:
- how prevalent
- demand for the service
- how much to charge for the service
- what the success rate is

Generally for diseases, we only claim to be able to control the disease, not cure it. 

Insects will depend on whether we can use a contact insecticide only or a systemic. Generally we don't claim a 100% control rate. Don't set yourself up for trouble with exaggerated success claims.

When you are selling PHC, it's more effective to say, this is the disease diagnosis, this is the treatment protocol, this is the expected outcome/success and this is the price. I have found that some people will pay on the hope that something will work to save their tree. 

To answer your question, slightly paraphrased, does PHC (disease and insect control - injections and sprays, fertilization, vertical mulching and radial trenching) make money. Uncategorically, yes. But you have to invest some time and effort into planning. It's not something that you can go and pick up as a fill in job.


----------



## BCMA (Oct 20, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> If you are going to do plant health care, you need to know the common insects and diseases of your area. There are probably only about 20-30 that are common enough to have treatment protocols developed and registered for use.
> 
> Generally, around here, there is only one insect and one disease for each tree species that we can treat. This doesn't mean there aren't more, but only a few that we have products that are registered for use.
> 
> ...



Excellent reply.


----------



## lxt (Oct 20, 2008)

BCMA said:


> It’s called “Errors and Omissions”, or E&O. Nowadays, anyone who gives recommendations concerning tree care, or who consults for hire, should carry E&O coverage in their insurance policy.
> 
> And of course, everyone how does tree work is properly licensed and insured…right?




errors and ommissions............WTF?? you`re selling a service not writing a contract, lawyers, notaries and other persons who engage in contractual documents carry this coverage.......not an arborist who micro injects tree`s!!

LOL. BTW.... a recommendation does not warrant E&O, if this were the case, every body would have to carry it, you better read up on something other than ansi/osha laws!! what a dolt!!!


LXT............. attention: im selling E&O insurance for arborists who micro inject......LOL!


----------



## lxt (Oct 20, 2008)

Jace, *Depending on your state* & this is key!!! to safe gaurd yourself talk to your insurance carrier!! E&O wont do jack for chemical treating in any manner & I cant beleive that was even mentioned...how absurd! you go to your insurance carrier and ask for that coverage & they are gonna laugh their arses off!!

My insurance for my "spray license" & depending on how your state sets up this license; for instance I have whats called "core" and then my categories are listed this will determine what coverages you will want.

if you are spraying or doing foliar applications there is whats called "adjacent wind drift damage" also for those who are hypersensitive.....if you are spraying/treating in an area with anyone on this list & didnt know about them being hypersensitive you better have coverage for that!!

a general "umbrella coverage" pertaining to chemical treatment will cover all the areas for the most part. just talk to your Insurance agent & good luck!!


LXT.............


----------



## Jace (Oct 21, 2008)

Just curious, do most tree health/care services out there all do trimming and removals as well, like most common tree services only do? Or 
do most just only do "health care" like foliar spraying, injections, "root work" etc., and no trimming & removals? 
I dont know any tree health care/management services, so I'm unfamiliar with what all they are generally rapped up in as far as services. I'd think theyd about all do regular tree trimming an removals as well. Maybe a little mowing or landscaping? Whats the norm?


----------



## Ed Roland (Oct 21, 2008)

Jace said:


> I wanted to get some experienced input on this subject. I have a tree service, and have been debating on getting into tree injecting. Is it very profitable? I live in a 12,500 population town, (in the midwestern chapter) with no big cities around. Seems most around here just want their trees trimmed, or removed, no "tree doctoring" taking place that I know of.
> 
> How does tree injection profit compare to trimming and removal profit, is there much of a comparison? Thanks for any input.



This is kind of like the ole 'soil injection of fertilizer' debate. The profits are good. Damn good. There are whole companies out there that do nothing else. Knowledgeable arborists practice prescription fertilization over arbitrary "fert and squirt". So, along the same ethical vein, are you comfortable injecting a pesticide into the vascular system of a tree? Some may argue, in the case of imidacloprid, if you cannot inject it into an apple tree which humans eat from, then it would not be suitable for trees that wildlife eat from.
If you break into this end of the business, please be responsible and make good judgement calls.
With that said: I do inject, the right product, on occassion and I make money.
opcorn:


----------



## Jace (Oct 21, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> This is kind of like the ole 'soil injection of fertilizer' debate. The profits are good. Damn good. There are whole companies out there that do nothing else. Knowledgeable arborists practice prescription fertilization over arbitrary "fert and squirt". So, along the same ethical vein, are you comfortable injecting a pesticide into the vascular system of a tree? Some may argue, in the case of imidacloprid, *if you cannot inject it into an apple tree which humans eat from, then it would not be suitable for trees that wildlife eat from*.
> If you break into this end of the business, please be responsible and make good judgement calls.
> With that said: I do inject, the right product, *on occassion *and I make money.
> opcorn:



interesting point I hadnt heard of, If it isnt fit for man, it's debatable as to if its fit for animal(including the ones we feast on like deer).

You inject on occasion... Curious as to how often is "on occasion"?

I assume U do tree trimming and removal as well... (primarily?)


----------



## Ed Roland (Oct 22, 2008)

Jace said:


> interesting point I hadnt heard of, If it isnt fit for man, it's debatable as to if its fit for animal(including the ones we feast on like deer).
> 
> You inject on occasion... Curious as to how often is "on occasion"?
> 
> I assume U do tree trimming and removal as well... (primarily?)



U bet Jace. I climb like a spider monkey spiking the removals and friction knot the rest. but i have a definite lean towards science based PHC/IPM. I use Tree Tech OTC for BLS, Arbotect 20-S to reduce the severity of anthracnose, Alamo for dutch elm, etc. Like every other responsible arborist I use a pathologist to identify the causal agent first before recommending treatment. Performing plant health care should be a holistic exprience. 
Take hemlock whooly adelgid on Tsuga for instance. We can spray dormant oil or soap and kill our pest but we also managed to kill every invertabrate on the tree and has to be applied much more often compared to an imidacloprid injection that targets our pest more specifically and economically. It is important to know Imidacloprid is mobile, and may enter water supplies so application should fit the circumstance. Injections should be in the professional arborists tool chest. Use each tool with knowledge and forethought.


----------



## Jace (Oct 22, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> U bet Jace. I climb like a spider monkey spiking the removals and friction knot the rest. but i have a definite lean towards science based PHC/IPM. I use Tree Tech OTC for BLS, Arbotect 20-S to reduce the severity of anthracnose, Alamo for dutch elm, etc. Like every other responsible arborist I use a pathologist to identify the causal agent first before recommending treatment. Performing plant health care should be a holistic exprience.
> Take hemlock whooly adelgid on Tsuga for instance. We can spray dormant oil or soap and kill our pest but we also managed to kill every invertabrate on the tree and has to be applied much more often compared to an imidacloprid injection that targets our pest more specifically and economically. It is important to know Imidacloprid is mobile, and may enter water supplies so application should fit the circumstance. Injections should be in the professional arborists tool chest. Use each tool with knowledge and forethought.



Thanks for the help and advice woodweasel


----------

