# Knot question



## lync (Feb 4, 2003)

Although I have been using a bowline since I was a boy scout, I do not find that it suits the purpose of a termination knot on a beaner. My main reason for not using it is that it can load across the gate of the beaner because it can't be cinched tight. Lately I've been using an anchor bend since it holds the beaner tightly and keeps the load on the major access.
However I am not as confident in this knot as the bowline.
Any thoughts on how long a tail, means of backing it up, etc. 

I've used the double fishermans knot, but its tough to untie once loaded.

Corey


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## Kevin (Feb 4, 2003)

Have you tried sliding the biner out to get slack with the double fisherman?
You might consider an eye splice.


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## Treeman14 (Feb 4, 2003)

Try the Buntline or Anchor Hitch, pages 72 and 73 in Jepson's book.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 4, 2003)

*Fisherman's Tail*

I've read in many a book that two inches is a significant tail length for a fishermans knot. I think four is better. You should try the Anchor hitch. I use a slipped version of this knot with the tail tucked back in to the loop is the "slippery" part. That way, when it's time to untie, I pull out the tail, give it a yank, and I'm free. 

Try this webpage (it's AWESOME!!!) http://www.tollesburysc.co.uk/Knots/Anchor_hitch.htm

Climb safe and check you're knots often. 

love
nick

Geez, Brett, can't I get a minute to type!


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## mikecross23 (Feb 4, 2003)

I like the anchor hitch. I used the bowline for a while but didn't like it as my anchoring knot. The anchor hitch is easy to tie and set. It cinches down on the biner so there is no play in the connection but it also slides off an open biner to come apart fairly easily. The knot is solid, but I'm not scared to put a 5" or 6" tail on it!


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## Stumper (Feb 4, 2003)

My personal preference is the buntline hitch. It does not tend to creep at all but I usually leave a 8"-10" tail and throw a half hitch around the standing line above the buntline. FWIW-we all know what we are talking about when we talk about a double fisherman tie off but that knot has a name. One half of a double fisherman knot tied on its own standing line to form an eye is properly called a*Scaffold knot*. It is a great knot for making a tress cord. As Nick mentioned it doesn't require much tail. If you whip the tail down it is permanent.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 4, 2003)

Stumper,
Is the scaffold knot in the Tree Climbers Companion? Do you know of a website or where I can find a picture?

I just ordered some tress cord and need to find a good knot. I was going to use the double fisherman's loop. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike


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## Stumper (Feb 4, 2003)

My Tree Climbers Companion is the first edition. It doesn't have the scaffold knot but I don't know about the newer edition. If you know the double fisherman loop you know the Scaffold -same knot. If you don't know the knot and want to learn you can probably find a standard double fisherman (used to join two lines ) and figure out how to take 1 side and tie it back on its standing part to form the loop. I have a link to an online book on caving rescue ops which Tom Dunlap shared with us awhile back. The book has a lot of useful imformation. I'll find it and post it.


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## Stumper (Feb 4, 2003)

http://www.draftlight.net/lifeonaline/download.html

Try that out.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 4, 2003)

The fishermans, scaffold or gallows knot (read a few others for it too) is nothing more then an overhand with 2 more roundturns towards the end bight. Trun down turn down then tuck up along the runningend of the rope.


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## lync (Feb 5, 2003)

*thanks*

Thanks for the imput, Nick nice site!!


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## budroe69moni (Feb 5, 2003)

treeclimber165 showed me the double fisherman's
when i 1st started climbing but when i went to tie
it again, it never did look right 
the last thing that you want to worry about is your 
knot so i started using the anchor hitch. it's easy to 
tie and strong as heck. i leave about a 2" tail on mine,
anything longer seems to get in the way! 

here's a question.......

what's stronger, an anchor hitch or an eye splice????

budroe


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 5, 2003)

Nick, are you saying you actualy climb on a slipknot????


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## Stumper (Feb 5, 2003)

Nice illustration of a triple fisherman's loop/Multiple Scaffold knot JPS. Where did you get it?

Nick, Did you send the slip knot info to Forrest? That might explain why he doesn't trust his rope.

Budroe, I don't know which is actually stronger but they both should test stronger than the rope itself due to the creation of the eye.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 5, 2003)

That same knot.gif is on several different sites. Just do a seach on scaffold knot.

Or use the one I did http://search.dogpile.com/texis/search?method=&top=1&brand=dogpile&q=scaffold+knot&cat=web


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by budroe69moni _
> *
> 
> what's stronger, an anchor hitch or an eye splice????
> ...



I would say the eye splice is stronger.
An eye splice has two leads going around the binner, which can then share the load. Depending on the rope, a splice nears and sometimes exceeds 100% of the strength of the rope. With some arborist ropes the core is removed at the eye which allows the rope to lay flat and become stronger on bends.
An anchor hitch only has ony lead taking the load. How weak it is depends on how sharp the bend is, because the outside fibers are taking all the load. The shaper the radius the weaker the knot.


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## Greg (Feb 5, 2003)

How can removing core increase strength?? Less rope = less strength right?
The anchor takes up too much room on a biner for me. I like the buntline also, never used the fishermans as described, tied to itself, sounds like a good knot.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 5, 2003)

Think about how strong a strap is. Because it lays flat, all the fibers are taking the load, not just those on the outside of the radius. In some arborist climbing ropes, the majority of the strength comes from the sheath, the core is simply there to hold the rope round.
With a spliced eye there are two legs, twice the strength.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 5, 2003)

*Climbing on a slip knot*

JPS-
Regarding climbing on a slip knot. In a sense, yes I do...(when I'm using a line that's not spliced, that is). However, it's a slip knot that can't slip. The tail is stuck throught the slip knot, then the slip knot is snugged down onto the tail. The friction from the snugging keeps the tail from coming out inadvertently. 
Just like any knot, you should keep an eye on it every once in a while. However, I wouldn't reccomend this knot to anyone.

love
nick


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 6, 2003)

I would never use a slip knot in my lifeline system nor would I ever allow anyone in my employ to use one. A slipknot in the double fisherman's (or scaffold) knot for your tres cord is unneccessary since you can simply open the carabiner and slide the rope off, then the knot will pull out. 
I only leave about 1/2" tail on my tres cord knots, but I use pliers to set the knot tightly and the ends of my cord are melted to a hard blob that will not pull through the knot.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 6, 2003)

He is using an anchor on the dead end of his climbing line. Since he has the tail locked through the slip bight it is no longer a slip knot.

Sounds a little bulky to me, I'll take the scaffold (like that better, it differentiates from all the is double, triple, looped fishermans) so I can pop the carab off and pull it apart.


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## paul soccodato (Feb 6, 2003)

personally, i like the anchor hitch. it all depends on what your comfortable with.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 6, 2003)

Most deffinately.

I like the anchor, and use it when i need to climb on a fixed bridge (Ooops! dropped my splitail!)

What I like with the scaffold on a deadend is that it comes apart easily and tails back up the rope. Nothing safety wise, like deadending with a clove.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 6, 2003)

JP-
I have 2-3 biners set up for my split tail, complete with tender pulley. If you drop your split tail (or even just the pulley) more than once a month, you might clip an extra one on your saddle. It is also handy for redirects where you might swap ropes or use the tail of your lifeline. I've started carrying an extra on big trims with multiple tie-ins. I can tie myself in on a different rope before removing the split tail from my old rope. In a pinch I can even use the split tail and biner for a redirect or other uses by clipping the tres cord over a limb.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 6, 2003)

I usualy carry an old 1/2 split with me for doubel ending. It is usualy when i forget or lend it out that I end up dropping the main one. What I have done then is take my AFC apart.

I've dropped my pulley enough that I've added another deltalink, put a dog clip on that so I don't have the pulley on the tress cord carab any more.


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## Squirrel (Feb 6, 2003)

*Am I using the "wrong" knot?*

I use a bowline running bowline for many uses but noone mentions this knot. When I am not using my french prusik with micropulley on a dogclip I tie in with a bowline to a carabiner, use the tail to tie a taughtline to the other side and a safety knot behind that (tried and true, old style). I had the blake slip on me and thus switched to the french prusik but sometimes the french prusik grows legs (a climber borrows my saddle and I put the prusik in some stupid place). Is the taughtline outdated or is it preference?


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 6, 2003)

Squirrel,
Welcome to AS, seen you over at TB recently.

Here's a picture of the Distel hitch I'm using, including the two scaffold (or double fisherman's) knots attaching it to the carabiner. I've been recommending this hitch to anyone and everyone who will listen since switching over from a tautline last year.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *Squirrel,
> I've been recommending this hitch to anyone and everyone who will listen since switching over from a tautline last year. *



I listened and I love the setup! Right know I'm using an eyespliced cord for the distel from the Sherrill catalog. I also just recently ordered some tress cord to tie my own now that I'm comfortable using the distel hitch.  This hitch seems to loosen up when weight is let off of it making it advance up the rope easier. With a slack tending pulley I don't even have to touch it on the ascent.

Here's some pics of the climb w/ Brian (treeclimber165) and monkyepuzzle last weekend. . . 

This one is Brian making a swing.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 6, 2003)

Brian on the tip!


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## mikecross23 (Feb 6, 2003)

Looking down on me.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 6, 2003)

Monkeypuzzle through the top!


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## Stumper (Feb 7, 2003)

No one in Florida ever has any fun. 
Looking at the picture of MP and remembering another you posted recently hmmmmmm............ There is something familiar about that face......


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## mikecross23 (Feb 7, 2003)

Funny lookin' feller, ain't he?!?!?!?


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## Stumper (Feb 7, 2003)

I'm going through my wanted posters-maybe there is a reward available. You'd think that with a face like that he'd have been arrested long ago!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 7, 2003)

Maybe it is the tree maffia that is after him. Or he was in a movie with Ken F.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 7, 2003)

*Mike*

Where's the other pictures of you? I know we got a few pictures of you waltzing around in that monster tree. 

Just so you guys know, Mike is a lot better climber than he lets on. He was really comfortable in his gear and gets around quite well.


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## TREETX (Feb 7, 2003)

Here is where I display all kinds of ignorance. Watch out. I was looking at Brian's distel pic. (Nice pic)

From the hitch to the krab, there is maybe only 2 inches. (is this the "bridge"?) Then that is connected to the rope via pulley so your bridge is just a krab's length.

I am using the same hitch w/out the micro pulley but have 12-16 inches for a bridge where it clips into my krab.

I have tried this w/the micro and the vt like in Jepson's book but it seems so short of a distance that there is no room for me to grab underneath the hitch to advance the system. If there is room, it is only for a small advance. Do you pull down from the tail behind and underneath you?? 

With my current system, I grab underneath the hitch, which while hanging is a full extension of my arms above me, and pull up making for several feet of advancement with each pull.

When I try the one in the pic, the hitch, etc is at chest height when pulling to advance so I can only get short strokes.

These setups seem to work so grat for ya'll. what am I doing wrong? What am I not "getting"???

please help. I can take any kind of photos if needed.

airhumping is not my entry method but I still use it often on distances too short to warrant footlocking.

Also - I ordered some line from sailnet and fear my grandchildren will be too old to climb when it arrives.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 7, 2003)

Hi Nate-
When I first tried this hitch I had the same issues. But I quickly figured out that I had to change my whole concept of how to use my friction hitch. This is much more of a 'hands-off' hitch. To advance the rope, simply pull the tail out and the pulley advances the hitch. The shorter the bridge, the better it works. This allows one hand advancement for your hitch, instead of grabbing the rope with one hand and the hitch with your other. Especially handy when limbwalking and you need to pull out your slack while holding on for balance.
For air humping, I pull myself up by grabbing the rope above the hitch and then pull the tail out below the hitch (when I'm not wearing my Pantin). The beauty of this hitch is that the rope will almost fall through it when it isn't loaded.
The only time I really handle my hitch is to descend. When I let go, it grabs. This is much different from when I used a tautline and kept one hand on the hitch almost all the time.

I'd give SailNet a call on their 800 number. They have always been very responsive for me. I think the longest an order took to arrive was 5 days, but that was a holiday weekend.


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## TREETX (Feb 7, 2003)

I will give it a try but i fear I will understand why many think the front strap on the butterfly is too long. 

I will try thinking outside the box and get back with you.

Thanks


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## mikecross23 (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks for the compliment Brian! ! !

I just got back from the Jacksonville Vermeer dealer. I had the sales rep pre order the saddle I wanted w/ large d's and everything. I tried it on w/ a tree out front and felt real comfortable in it! Let ya'll know more after I put it to use this weekend. 

Here's another picture, rope got in the way, but it's cool!


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## monkeypuzzle (Feb 7, 2003)

When you're labled a ''snake botherer'' in 4 counties by the Game and Fresh Water Fish Comm. you have to keep a low profile. There is only one thing I hate more than a snake killer,and that is a snake killing game warden.


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## lync (Feb 9, 2003)

*Thinking out of the box*

On a previous thread Rob Murphy posted this photo which made my light bulb go on! I too was using the distal and advancing it by hand with a long bridge. His way you can set it up short with the micro pully right below the knot, but by tying into the other half of your line as illustrated you can self advance your hitch and make a large gain on each pull while body thrusting . Thanks Rob.

Corey
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=23160


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## NickfromWI (Feb 9, 2003)

*Super Advancing of Distal*

Hello Climbers-
Some of you might find this interesting. I also use the Distal. The one I currently use is by 3/8" UULS (UULS is Ultra Ultra Low Stretch) polyester/polyester double-braid by Yale Cordage. The sling I use to tie it is about 25 inches long with an eye spliced on each end.
The splice has a few advantages. The first being the neatness/tidyness of not having to have a knot there. Secondly, and more importantly, the area just a few inches below each eye (the throat, as it is sometimes referred to as) is a bit stiff from the splice. When advancing the hitch by pulling the tail end of the rope that is hanging from the slack-tending pulley, the stiffness actually pushes the Distal open just a tiny bit so that my climbing line just slips right through! I've been watching this closely for a few months now in several different types of rope and so far none of the splices have inhibited the hitch from grabbing on to my climbing line.
Has anyone else tried this yet?

love
nick


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## mikecross23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Nick,
I take it the "Splicer for higher" splices his own. The stiffness of the splice does seem to helps push the distel open to advance. I have been using the spliced ultra tech cord from sherrill. It's a nice set up, but the cord is a little long. I also just ordered some cord to tie my own tress cords. Double fisherman's knots. Maybe I can educate myself and start practicing splicing to eventually trust my own! Do you have any good resources for splicing instructions?

Thanks,
-Mike-


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 9, 2003)

I tried making one using 8mm Sta Set about a month ago, but I use a shorter tres cord than you. I prefer mine about 21.5" eye-to-eye so I don't have as much slop when pulling the tail of my rope to advance my hitch. The stiff areas approaching each splice interfered with my hitch grabbing/ releasing and I didn't bother trying a longer one. I'll live with the knots for now since I can burn out a tres cord in a day when I'm hustling and average about a week per cord.

Mike, here's the best splicing page I've found, for Sta-Set use the double braid polyester splice.
http://www.neropes.com/splice/default.htm


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## MasonGrey (Mar 8, 2003)

Where can I find some of this 8mm and 9mm Sta Set? Also been practicing some of my knots here and another question has arisen. The split tail that I use does not have an eye spliced at either end and I attach it to my biner with a buntline hitch. Has anyone had any experience with this knot creeping? I would feel safer backing it with a stopper knot but it just takes up so much more space. Is there another knot that would be more suitable for this application?


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 8, 2003)

Mason,
Several places to get New England Sta-Set rope. I've been getting it at www.SailNet.com 
Your other questions are answered in the first two pages of this thread. Have another toke for me, huh?


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## MasonGrey (Mar 9, 2003)

Thanks Brian. Guess I set myself up for that one!


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## BigJohn (Mar 9, 2003)

I've used the sta set for awhile and it worked great. Now that I am using the Fly I needed something more durable. Now I found that the 3/8 double braid from Samson works great. I use a double fishermans and if I have the time I stitch the ends with some spectra so the eyes can't close and the tail won't creep.

Big John


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## NickfromWI (Mar 9, 2003)

*How about....*

Anyone else tried the UULS 3/8th polyester double braid from Yale? I like it about 24" long with an eye spliced on each end.

love
nick


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 9, 2003)

What's UULS, ultra-ultra low strength?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 9, 2003)

Stretch Mike. Your feeling extra sarcastic today, cold weather got you feeling blue


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## NickfromWI (Mar 9, 2003)

*In case there was no sarcasm....*

and that was an authentic question....yes, UULS=Ultra Ultra Low Stretch.

Check it out some time. It's a bit nubby. It grabs good, and let's go good.

love
nick


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 10, 2003)

I was kidding about the low strength, I didn't think they would emphasize that in the name, but i'm not familiar with Yales stuff.
The rope is a high molecular density rope, no?
I find there is a place for these ropes in aboroculture, but they are not abrasion resistant. The best ones are those with a polyester jacket, like Ultra-tech.
Guys have mentioned about using Tenex because it's cheap and easy to splice, which I apprciate, but their needs would be better served using a little more expensive cords, that will last and be much stronger for the size.


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