# ISA or TCIA



## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 12, 2005)

I can only afford one membership, ISA or TCIA
I have my ideas
What's your thoughts


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 12, 2005)

ISA = $105 + chapter

TCIA = $349 (minimum - depending on how much bus. you do)

Im ISA for that main reason. I know some that are both but thats a lot to invest. If youre a business owner, it think both would be beneficial ad tools. But just for your person, no.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 12, 2005)

I too agree w/ okie.

Tcia is asking way too much for the fledgling business owner to donate.  

I'm w/ Isa & local chapter as well as the Kansas Arb. Ass.


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## clearance (Apr 12, 2005)

Forgive my ignorance but what does tcia stand for-tree cutters international association? Joking what does it stand for really?


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 13, 2005)

Tree Care Industry Association

There are some business benefits to being a TCIA member. When you find out about all of the programs that they have developed for the business owner you'll see the value of the dues. 

ISA benefits the individual and not the business.


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## Koa Man (Apr 13, 2005)

I used to belong to both when the TCIA was the NAA. I dropped the NAA membership several years ago after asking myself whether it was worth paying them $350 a year. I am still a member of the ISA.


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## vharrison2 (Apr 13, 2005)

Both have strong points. ISA around here has many educational opportunities to pick up CEU's


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 13, 2005)

thanks guys


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 13, 2005)

IMO there is a threashold of usefulness with TCIA membership. If you're a micro company with a couple of employees then It's probably not worth it. Once you start running several crews then it could pay in the long run to have the TCIA membership, just for the support they will give you if OSHA comes a knocking.

ISA is science education

TCIA is buisness education

There is some overlap, since noth are tree related.

I would suggest saving up to get the ISA Life Membership. it's only 10 years of dues, and you don't have to remember to get the check out every year.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 13, 2005)

For a newer company there would be value in a TCIA membership. Getting stocked up on their manuals and programs, many of which are free to members, might be a good use of the money.


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## Koa Man (Apr 13, 2005)

Both JPS and TD have very good points. The package of manuals I got from the NAA, now TCIA, when I joined was very good. I am just a 3 man operation so continueing my membership after 5 years just wasn't worth it. The 1st year's dues were only like $175, then jumped up after that. If that is still the case, then joining to get all the manuals then dropping out would be worth it.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 13, 2005)

thanks guys, that's what I'm thinking, science vs. business
I've been an ISA member for a year or two, thinking I'm going to get my cert.
but I don't seem to have time and Penn State Co-op and Pa Forestry always have good classes close by
I'm thinking I could use some of the other help for a while, since the ISA Journal near about makes my head explode
TCIA is sending me a packet


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## treeseer (Apr 13, 2005)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> the ISA Journal near about makes my head explode


Ha! Mine too. Maas wrote that the JoA is written at about the right level for him, but even though I've been reading academese for a long time, I have a hard time using many of them. :alien: most JoA articles are not written for the average reader, many topics are not applicable to tree workers, nor are most of them very action-oriented.

Their mags both have their ups and downs in quality and quantity. Lately Arborist News has had good scientific and practical stuff, tci more eqpt and business issues. They're both good orgs in their own way. Let us know how it goes with tcia.


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## Koa Man (Apr 13, 2005)

The J of A gets thrown in the trash about 2 min. after I get it. I take a look at the table of contents, all of which are about trees we don't have in Hawaii. Since I joined the ISA over 10 years ago, I only read and kept a couple of articles in the J of A. On the other hand, I find the Arborist News magazine very helpful.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

I RECKON YOUR BETTER OFF KEEPING YOUR MONEY ,AS NEITHER DO AN AWFULL LOT FOR THE INDUSTRY !!!!!!!!!......just check out how many topped tree's there are in your area or count how many hack outfits you compete against !


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## Koa Man (Apr 14, 2005)

Topped trees....too many to count. Hackers....I think not more than 200 in my area.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

my point exactly


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 14, 2005)

So...how many production arbos have ever stopped to talk to the hacks and toppers? Bring them around to the bright side. Is it either organizations job, entirely, to be the police force? 

The only way that "bad" treework might come to an end is through education and legislation. In some states or communities there are laws and regulations that are backed up with enforcement. Short of that, it's our job to make a positive difference.

If it's to be it's up to me


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## treeseer (Apr 14, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> .just check out how many topped tree's there are in your area or count how many hack outfits you compete against !


Rolla, the orgs did not top the trees or train the hacks. Things'd be that much worse if the orgs were not facilitating educamation.

If you have any good ideas on what to do, they'd be glad to hear from you!


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

No problem ,it's simple get our so called trade organizations to work with government bodies and and get the whole industry legislated, country wide [talking about the UK but this shouldnt be hard for ALL US STATES] and enforce the legislation it's not rocket science,plenty of other industry's are completely legislated and have to work to very strict RULES and REGULATIONS ,why not our's

In all the years, what have the trade organization's been doing ????.hack's are still everywhere most so called arborists wouldn't know how to prune a rose let alone a tree,and 50% of tree firms in ANY area work without any insurance,or any formal training ,i honestly haven't seen any improvement in the industry in the last 15 years


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## SteveBullman (Apr 14, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> The only way that "bad" treework might come to an end is through education and legislation. QUOTE]
> 
> theres no more chance of bad treework coming to an end than there is building work, or any other profession for that matter. the education is there for the taking.....some people are never going to have the inclination to take it whatever you do.


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## vharrison2 (Apr 14, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> to work with government bodies and and get the whole industry legislated
> 
> AHHHHHHHH Just for myself........to much government in our lives isn't good. I don't know what the answer is but I live in a county with 5 different cities in it. The county is only 100 miles long and in some places only 3 miles wide. So that leaves us with 4 government entities to deal with; all with their own set of rules. What you can do in one city you might not be able to do in another. One city requires a permit even to take down a dead palm...pain in the arss, the county wants to get rid of invasive exotics, Key West considers one invasive a "canopy tree" and can not be removed.
> That is off the subject, I know. That said, both of those organizations represent our industry well.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 14, 2005)

Rollacosta, I'm not looking for what the org can do for the industry, but what it can do for me
that's how/why I'm better than almost all of my competition

got the TCIA flyer. first year membership is $359. right now they're running a special of $259.
second and subsequent years are based upon your sales
0 - 100,000 is $359
100,001 - 200,000 is $503 

I think I'll join for a year or two, until I make the comitment to get my ISA cert




for the record, I'm against any goverment regulation. government is out of control


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> Rollacosta, I'm not looking for what the org can do for the industry, but what it can do for me
> that's how/why I'm better than almost all of my competition
> 
> Oh so 'YOU' are not part of the industry  think about what your writing  ...God no wonder ROCKY pi***ed off


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

Anyone who does not want to see this industry legislated is obviously a hack !!..no doubt about it


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## vharrison2 (Apr 14, 2005)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> what it can do for me
> that's how/why I'm better than almost all of my competition
> 
> right now they're running a special of $259.
> ...


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## Ax-man (Apr 14, 2005)

I have been considering joining TCIA for some time now, the only thing that has stopped me is the higher cost for the dues.

One requirement for joining is proof of insurance, no problem with that, the question I have is if your submitting a certificate of insurance, is your business put on some kind of list that could result in some work from potential customers who might be cruising their website and are interested in hiring pro's to service their tree needs ?????

Larry


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## SteveBullman (Apr 14, 2005)

speaking of being put on a list....2 of my friends passed the isa cert a few months ago..and i noticed yesterday their names arent even on the uk register of isa members yet. whats the point in paying the fees if it doesnt even get you on the list!


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 14, 2005)

Rolla,

I disagree. You can't expect the industry to change over night. Remember the organizations and it's followers are beginning to inform the consumers. Once the consumers realize the difference, then you will see a drastic change in the industry.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 14, 2005)

If other professions worked at the same level as arborculture I'm sorry to say we would have more injuries and deaths around us. What would a similar scenario for an electrician to have that compares to topping? The result could be a fire or electrocution. Houses would be falling in and cars falling apart. 

If you want the trade organization to work with the government, roll up your sleeves and dig in. Become part of the solution.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

TreeJunkie said:


> Rolla,
> Remember the organizations and it's followers are beginning to inform the consumers. Once the consumers realize the difference, then you will see a drastic change in the industry.




call me cynical ,but i don't see much of the above happening in any way shape or form


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> If other professions worked at the same level as arborculture I'm sorry to say we would have more injuries and deaths around us. What would a similar scenario for an electrician to have that compares to topping? The result could be a fire or electrocution. Houses would be falling in and cars falling apart
> 
> Tom this is my whole point you very rarely see imo poor electrical ,plumbing or work of this nature any more ,due to the fact these industry's are heavely regulated/overseen /controlled ,overhere in the UK you cannot carry out the above mentioned trades unless you have had formal training and abide by industry regulation's [best practice]
> 
> All i'm saying is the way they got so regulated was through there trade organization's lobbying over here all plumbing and gas work is controlled by C.O.R.G.I,we should be regulated [if this is the correct word]and it's down to the ISA TCIA and the UKs AA [arboricultural association] to get us there ,what exactly due member's subscriptions get spent on ???


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## treeseer (Apr 14, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> call me cynical ,but i don't see much of the above happening in any way shape or form


If you don't see it in front of you then you must not make it happen. 

The government is not the answer to our professional problems; we are.

Re referrals, I used to get some calls from people who found me on the ISA site when they look for certified arborists. Now I got a lot more calls since my BCMA put me on top of the list. :angel: 

"Key West considers one invasive a "canopy tree" and can not be removed."
Good for them, I think. Which species are you calling invasive?
I miss good old Cayo Hueso, subtropical land of the Eternal Party.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 14, 2005)

treeseer said:


> If you don't see it in front of you then you must not make it happen. :eek




oh don't worry i give my potential client's a full education lesson on what and what should not be done to there tree's ,but when the next two or even three bidder's [hacks ] roll up and agree with the home owner that there tree's should be topped or they underbid me by x amount because they can afford to because they have no insurance of any description or they haven't took the time to gain formal qualifications for themselves or there staff ..then i think it's time local government's took over and made sure things are done properly! ,but this need's the push from our trade organizations which IMO is sadly lacking ,hence it will be a cold day in hell before i ever join any organization


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## treeseer (Apr 14, 2005)

"this need's the push from our trade organizations which IMO is sadly lacking ,hence it will be a cold day in hell before i ever join any organizatio" [/QUOTE]Rolla baby, you been eating breakfast lately? You're sounding like Dunlap when he's off his feed.  

The push is lacking becasue not enough arbos are members and not enough members are pushing.

We in the US--most of us anyway--are not quick to invite the government in to run our tradess; their track record is not so hot. Then there's the whole George III thing from a couple centuries ago. Now we have George II and...never mind, I won't go there. :alien:


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 14, 2005)

rolla, I guess after calling me a hack, we wont be conversing any more.
kindly reframe from reading any more of my posts

there's nothing the government gets involved in that it doesn't evenutally screw up
in the big picture, more government means less freedom and liberty and that's a lot worse than a few topped trees
me, I dont want to see either


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## Koa Man (Apr 15, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> So...how many production arbos have ever stopped to talk to the hacks and toppers? Bring them around to the bright side.
> 
> The only way that "bad" treework might come to an end is through education and legislation. ....... Short of that, it's our job to make a positive difference.
> 
> If it's to be it's up to me



Tom,
If I stopped to talk to all of the above, I would be late for my job and left with precious little time to finish what I am supposed to do. My philosophy is, "let the buyer beware." Especially the YP shoppers who are looking for the lowest possible price. I just wasted my time with one caller, a neighbor of my customer. He has a huge banyan tree that he wanted several large branches removed, lots of rigging, back yard job. I figured it would take four guys one full day to do. Before I can even give him a quote, he tells me, "I hope you can do it for around $400." I don't even bother to give him a quote. I tell him, "I think you need to go get some other quotations. I pay my climber $300 a day, this is a full day job plus my equipment, insurance, and 2 groundmen." He actually has the nerve to tell me, "Well maybe I can go up to $450." Those kinds of people deserve to get some hack drop all the branches, ask to be paid so they can rent a truck to haul the rubbish, then never return. I have done the clean up of several of those. Some of them have become my most loyal customers.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 15, 2005)

Are there local arbo groups? There are opportunities to join forces with other people who care about trees. There should be a state urban forestry council.

We all do our bit of education when we meet with clients. Educate them but sometimes they eat the books and go cheap. Such is life. 

I get weary of hearing people complain that the associations should do the work and then don't take the time to get involved themselves. That's not how changes are made. Do you know how much change Cass Turnbull has made with Plant Amnesty?


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## Koa Man (Apr 15, 2005)

We have a local arborist group and the landscape council and Outdoor Circle are very vigorous in promoting proper tree care. But many times the $$ speaks LOUDER. The hackers don't bother me. I laugh when I see bad tree work. I can understand the concern and anger when work is slow and you see totally unqualified people doing tree work. I used to get that way when I first started out. After I got my steady customer base established, I am just too busy to worry about them.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 15, 2005)

Koa,

We need to be happy that we aren't working in the real estate market. That's a game that's even easier to get into than treework. I talked to a friend whose a Realtor and he told me about how many licensed Realtors there are in the Denver area. Whoeee....lots of people think that they can cut a fat hog in the as#.


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## vharrison2 (Apr 15, 2005)

treeseer said:


> "
> Good for them, I think. Which species are you calling invasive?
> I miss good old Cayo Hueso, subtropical land of the Eternal Party.



Brazilian Pepper/ When were you there last?


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 15, 2005)

I am going to do my bit for the INDUSTRY i have already spoken to a few AS member's that are local to me ,i intend to start up a local charitable oraganization designed to help home owner's and company's find reputable tree service company's and at the same time help promote proffesional tree care businesses,P.S this idea is not an off the cuff reaction to this thread i have had this in mind for quite sometime,i beleive together local contractor's can do a better job than the big international organizations ever can .


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## treeseer (Apr 15, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> i beleive together local contractor's can do a better job .


Rolla, that sounds great. Hope it works for you.

I formed the Triangle Arborists Assn recently. Just a handful so far, but acting locally can pay off well.


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## vharrison2 (Apr 15, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> I am going to do my bit for the INDUSTRY
> 
> Good for you ROLLACOSTA quit your bit##en and make it better! :blob1:


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 15, 2005)

Rolla,

Great to hear that. If you need a model or some help, contact Cass Turnbull in Seattle.

http://www.plantamnesty.org/

Think globally, act locally.

With visible topping jobs like in this picture you're going to have a hard road to travel.

Tom


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 15, 2005)

thank's for the encouragement guy's..that tree in the picture is a London Plane who ever worked on the tree had the intention of the tree being some sort of pollarded if left for some many years the tree won't look to bad ,this type of work is very common on London planes ,we havesome that had work carried out on them like that at 20 years ago ,now they don't look to bad,but all said its still a nasty topped tree


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## Big A (Apr 15, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> I am going to do my bit for the INDUSTRY i have already spoken to a few AS member's that are local to me ,i intend to start up a local charitable oraganization designed to help home owner's and company's find reputable tree service company's and at the same time help promote proffesional tree care businesses


Dont wish to rain on your parade, Rolla, but how long do you think this would last? Speaking to a few arbos this week even the "friendly" companies back-stab each other over standards and especially pricing, so how on earth do you think they would get on! I've never experienced such a dis-jointed profession as this one. If you look in the Yellow Pages in an area there may be a dozen tree cos. If you look under Building/ Construction there are many more, but they all seem to work along nicely, pricing seems pretty even and they all earn a living. I'd love for your idea to work, I really would but just can't see it.


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## SteveBullman (Apr 15, 2005)

course the other thing is, to keep something like this respectable you're obviously not going to let just anyone join....and from what i see of general standards in this area theres going to be a lot of people not allowed in the club.....lots of people would be put out i think....assuming it took off.


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## Big A (Apr 15, 2005)

Just how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? I'm sure we all know of "professional" companies with all the relevant bits of paper who COULD be in the hack category, do we drive around and checkout each others work? After all anyone can talk the talk, but do they walk the walk? Sorry for the negativity, but why not have a local forum group at a pub, invite all comers and compare notes, techniques and so on, and maybe even educate a few of the less knowledgeable, have a laugh, have a beer.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 15, 2005)

I think you'd run into a problem with the last 20-30%
How do you define hack?
Me and Big A sit down over a beer, we'd probably agree on 80%, after that who calls the shots

heck, I stop when I see other guys working to strike up a freindly conversation, it dont happen around here
Its all
"I'm a macho, macho man, 
I can cut a tree better than you can"

I think you may have an easier time herding cats

Hey ROLLACOSTA


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 15, 2005)

to become a member you would have to full fill a certain criteria ie have relavent qualifacation's and insurance for the work you do ,and maybe fill in a questionaire ,and the questionare would be marked by the committee


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 15, 2005)

if only 20 people /company's joined it wouldn't bother me ,oh and there would be a committee that would be voted in every 2 years,i'm not looking at running a private members club....come on guy's look positive


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 15, 2005)

Back stabbing and priceing would not be a concern for me and shouldn't be for other member's ,if your insured ,qualified etc etc then my guess is you would all be charging the same or at least a similer price,but this isn't about pricing it's about seperating the 'wheat from the chaff' yes there are many many company's who will not be allowed to join the organization,simply because they will or do not fit the criteria plain and simple


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## Tree Wizard (Apr 15, 2005)

Sounds to me like you are talking about TCIA's accreditation program. No price setting or discussing but everything you do is on the up and up.


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## clearance (Apr 15, 2005)

What a funny thread, everyone hacking madly away at each other. No to government regulation, they will fek it up and tax and fee everyone to death, get lost. Tom,- "arbos", what a totally gay name, I like treeman, instantly understandable to everyone. I.S.A. or any other accreditation is no gaurantee of common sense, something I see all the time. From I.S.A. arborists having tall growing trees planted under powerlines and having big growing trees planted in the 80s that have cracked sidewalks all over town. Today I went to the site of what is to be a new city park, the city bought up a bunch of lots and houses to do this. Almost all the trees there are to be removed, but we have to fall them and chip all the branches, bushes too. One man with a big saw and one man with an excavator could have had it down and binned out of there today. As it is we will be there for a few days and an excavator will have to come there and rip out the stumps. I said to my boss "there must be a goddam arborist that's figured this out, right" "Of course" as he shook his head.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 16, 2005)

Clearance,

What about the women who work in arborculture? 

Arbo...ists care for trees as individuals and work to preserve them at their highest value. Tree"men" could be loggers for all anyone knows. Would you use a Wild Thing for taking a tree down? Probably not, using language as a tool is important too. 

What is your definition of "arborist" ? You do know that you're an arborist don't you by all definitions? 

There are times when everyone realizes that they get paid by the hour not the job. Once you make your peace with that it doesn't make any difference how a job is done as long as your pay envelope is full on Friday. 

If you read the thread without a bias you'll see that most of the people want keep the government out of the picture. We also want the best care for the trees. 

In the US we're fortunate to have ANSI committees that are made up of volunteers from within the profession setting standards. Most times when OSHA doesn't have an applicable reg they use the ANSI standard. I have no clue how standards are set in Canada. Would you care to explain?


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## treeseer (Apr 16, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Arbo...ists care for trees as individuals and work to preserve them at their highest value.


Great post Tom, though instead of the above I would say that arborists work to IINCREASE, not preserve, tree value. If we do it right, the value grows. I know that's what you meant.  

Hmm, let's see, if the term "arbo' is callled "totally gay", and women are treated like they don't exist, what does that say? 

Clearance, I agree that big-growing trees under lines and next to sidewalks is not a good thing. hOwever, it is a common thing that has to be dealt with in ways other than tree removal.(see the Root Pruning thread) City regs call for trees, and they also call for an overkill of parking spaces. Everyone wants to park next to the door, so the trees get sited under the lines, next to the sidewalk.

Educating city planners and landscape architects is doing some good on this, but there needs to be a lot more. If the only tool we use is a saw, then they'll just plant another in its place; problem not solved.


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## Treeman14 (Apr 16, 2005)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> got the TCIA flyer. first year membership is $359. right now they're running a special of $259.
> second and subsequent years are based upon your sales
> 0 - 100,000 is $359
> 100,001 - 200,000 is $503



I'm almost afraid to ask, but how much is it for the $400,001 - $500,000 range?

I joined for a year or two back in the '80's, so I'm not eligible for the new member special rate.


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## Tree Wizard (Apr 16, 2005)

I am not sure what the dues are - but the next range is 200K to 500K.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 16, 2005)

treeman14, I stopped asking at the 100,000 - 200,000 range
I dont plan on going any bigger.
if it dont get posted I'll call on Monday


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 16, 2005)

I went to the TCIA website (natlarb.com) and here's what the dues are:

"Tree Care Industry Association Dues for 2005 

If Annual Gross Volume of Tree Care Business is: Annual dues are: 

$0 to $100,000 $359 
$100,001 to $200,000 $503 
$200,001 to $500,000 $574 
$500,001 to $750,000 $790 
$750,001 to $1,000,000 $1,004 
$1,000,001 to $5,000,000 $1,436 
$5,000,001 to $20,000,000 $2,010 
$20,000,001 and above $3,444 


Each additional membership for Conglomerates: $359 

Associate Member Dues for 2005 are: 

Associate Dealer, Distributor, Industry Support: $359

Associate Manufacturer: $503"

Copied w/o permission of TCIA.


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## clearance (Apr 17, 2005)

Tom, Treeseer- you guys have a valid point about treeman, how about treeworker. Yes, my interprovincial trade certificate does say certified utility arborist, but I hate it when people ask '"are you an arborist?" I cut down trees mostly and I really think you two would agree that calling me an arborist is not right. Besides, when they say it I think of being compared to arborists I have had to do retarded things for and it makes me cringe. Nothing to be proud of in my opinion unless you are an arborist that actually works hard or if you just make decisions you make decisions that are good. It was said that city arborists have to be educated about where to plant trees, why, I thought thats why they got the job as arborists because they are educated, right. As far as me questioning the arborists decision about having us chip everything instead of one chainsaw and one excavator, let me explain. I know I get a pay cheque regardless, but the arborist has a duty not to waste taxpayers money, at a private outfit these city arborists would soon be fired. That idea about not wasting taxpayers money might be quaint and old fashioned, but I believe in getting the most for the people that are paying the bill.


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## treeseer (Apr 17, 2005)

clearance said:


> Tom, Treeseer- ... I really think you two would agree that calling me an arborist is not right.


Sorry clearance, I don't agree. You study ways to do the right thing for the trees that you do not cut down; that makes you an arborist. Cringe all you want brother, you are under the same tent as us and as the city arborists who tell you to chip instead of haul. (that's ok; it's a big tent.)

That may not be a waste of money. Keeping that material on site to recycle may have benefits that you and I can only guess at. If you want to improve the quality of directions coming from city arbo's, maybe responding to them knowledgeably and in writing would help. If they know that you're recording their work and may pass on your observations to their supervisor, the specs you get may be more realistic. Just a thought.

On this thread's original intent--has anyone noticed that the guy who does soil testing for customers is the guy who is raking in almost half a million per year?? Could there be a connection between quality of total tree care service, and quantity of income?

Brett's my role model.  Now if I can only increase my income 10x and get into that category, without taking on 20x the overhead that he probably has more than me.

OK Dan, enough armchair psychologizing. There ar ehostas to divide, aren't there? The "apparent hate" my be just disdain brought on by impatience, or contempt bred by familiarity. Clearance will be in real trouble as he looks harder at trees. they will show him shades of gray and teach him the valus of patience and humility. Trees'll do that, and make liife much more complex when they work their magic on you.


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## clearance (Apr 17, 2005)

Treeco, Treeseer-the trees are not been chipped and recyclyed on site, they are being chipped into the truck and dumped miles away from this site, adding to the cost. Even a child knows that 40 yard triple axle bin carrys far more than a dump box on a boom truck. Next you guys will want me to dig out the stumps by hand. Cutting down trees whether by hand or with a hoe is work involving an arborist, how can you say otherwise when it involve trees. Arborist=trees. And you wonder why I cringe to be asociated with these guys, even you two are trying to make excuses and justify thier decisions from down there. Birds of a feather.....I am not going to talk to these city arborists and tell them how the work should be done, the last thing they would do is agree with some "hack" wearing boots and jeans. Why not make the best use of men and machines, save the taxpayers money and let me go and cut something else down? Treeco-you tell me to be carefull, yeah carefull of widowmakers, kickbacks, etc. certainly not my opinion about these arborists, bring it on.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 17, 2005)

clearance said:


> I am not going to talk to these city arborists and tell them how the work should be done, the last thing they would do is agree with some "hack" wearing boots and jeans. Why not make the best use of men and machines, save the taxpayers money and let me go and cut something else down?



If this bothers you so much, why are you spending the energy discussing it with us? Take that same energy and ask questions. Instead of telling someone how to do their job you might ask why things are being done this way. You might be surprised at what you find out. For all any of us know they may have priced out all of the different possibilities and found that this is the most cost effective. Simple doesn't always mean the cheapest. 

Sharing your knowledge, experience and skills could save money. Until you start thinking more of your self than just being a hack you'll probably have a hard time communicating with the decision makers. 

In Minneapolis parks they have very strict rules about what machinery can be driven near the trees. Soil compaction is a terrible thing. Once the soil sturucture is ruined by driving machinery on it, especially when the soil is wet, it takes decades to restructure. Maybe this isn't an issue in this park. Most of the time it is cheaper to grind out stumps instead of digging. Factor in the ease of digging but then you have to load the stumps on a truck, transport and pay for disposal. Many times the stumps are ground and the chips are just churned into the soil on site.


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## treeseer (Apr 17, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Once the soil sturucture is ruined by driving machinery on it, especially when the soil is wet, it takes decades to restructure. ... Most of the time it is cheaper to grind out stumps instead of digging.


Tom's right-- plus holes caused by digging are often filled with bad subsoil. So factor in also the effect on roots of adjacent trees-=>their decline in value.

It's not an immediate thing but it can be a severe thing.

Returning the material to the site is always best, for the trees left on the site anyways.


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## clearance (Apr 17, 2005)

Doesn't bother me to be called a hack, people I respect are the ones who's label I care about. Once again you show your lack of knowledge regarding land clearing. This site in question is not yet a park, demo'd houses, vacant houses and now empty lots. To fall about 12 Doug. fir in a row 60 to 100' tall, I am going to have to strip them with a boom truck as high as Ican reach, then wedge them over. Some will have to be pulled over with a bull rope ran to a block in a high stump I left and back to the truck. I estimate three loads of chips from the branches and tops, from experience I know that all the branches and the stumps could be put in a bin trailer. After the excavator helped you fall them. I know that the stumps are coming out anyways, but what is faster to get stumps, a grinder or a big hoe? No brainer, as far as soil compaction, after they can just truck in some topsoil after. In Vncouver they have built parks right on top of heavily contaminated land that had been used by gross polluters for many years before there were any enviromental standards. Personally I would have left some more trees on the site, but whatever. Going back tomorrow, I'll try to bite my tongue and ask some polite questions if the arborist shows up.


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## treeseer (Apr 17, 2005)

clearance said:


> Doesn't bother me to be called a hack,... Personally I would have left some more trees on the site,... .


Which is why you are more accurately called an arborist. Hello, Mr. Arborist!

People who write specs are not often happy about being second-guessed, but if you have solid understanding of the factors that go inot those decisions, and a well-supported alternative that is viable, they may be receptive. Research the situation first, then Good Luck!


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## Nickrosis (Apr 17, 2005)

Great thread. Happy member of ISA since I was 19 and happy member of TCIA since...birth? You get out of it what you put into it.

I spend a lot of time mentoring other companies in the area and helping them out in any way we can. To not do this is to ignore the kinship that we share in the industry and sets us all back. Being a member of TCIA and ISA furthers that effort.

ROLLA, I appreciate what you're working to do, but if you didn't invest in the existing trade organizations before starting your own, I would expect your peers to have the same derogatory attitude about what you're doing. Bash bash bash. Without a marinating the culture and actions of the organizations. If you expect other orgs to rapidly turn around a burgeoning, independently-minded industry, I would assume you somehow have the antidote.

Oh Clearance, anger and hate are not healthy.


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## treeseer (Apr 17, 2005)

Nickrosis said:


> Without a marinating the culture and actions of the organizations.


Umm, Mr. Collegian, can you tell me the meaning of that (non-)sentence?  If marinating is soaking in a sauce, are you saying that we should imbibe before participating?


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## clearance (Apr 17, 2005)

Nick-I am more frustrated with the ongoing stupidity I see from arborists here than angry. Hate, no way, they haven't done anything to make me hate them. Treeseer and Tom would fit in very well working as city arborists here. Driving around in a new city pickup, stopping often at Starbucks, having endless "important" meetings, consulting with conslutants. Making arbitrary, nonsensical decisions to the dismay and incredulity of treeworkers and the public. Exposing the city to financial liability from lawsuits becuase of thier constant worship of the holy trees. Or more likely causing the city to settle out of court because thier lawyers know they would get thier ass kicked in court. I would love to see this b.s. stopped and some I.S.A. arborists get fired for incompetence, that would make the rest of them think a little. Anyways, end of my rant, I am going to keep doing my best to make good people happy and try to forget about the culls.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 17, 2005)

Clear,

You have no clue how Treeseer or I operate or view hazards. Do you think that I've never cut down a tree? Done plenty in my thirty years in the business. 

In all of those years I've only had to go back and cleanup one failure. A client had a double stem basswood. I installed a cable between the two leaders. Six years later a windstorm with 70+ MPH winds tore up most of north Minneapolis. The side leader of the basswood broke. BUT!!! all it did was scratch the paint on the neighbor's house as it swung over on the cable. Both of these houses were built in the late 1890's, very historic. If I hadn't cabled the tree the neighbor's house would have taken a hard smash. The takedown, of the side leader, not the whole tree, was systematic. A few years later I was out again to prune the main leader. In the thirty years in the profession I haven't had the opportunity to hide behind anyone's skirts. Unlike a mistake that you would make, I would pay. I owned the business so it would have been my headache to deal with any problems. Sure, I had insurance all of the time but I never worried about having a liability claim. I base my work on knowledge of the profession. 

Your constant "painting with a wide brush" does nothing for the conversation. Do you thrive on antagonism? It's really a pity that you [seem] to have had such bad experiences with other tree care professionals. Do you know Julian Dunster? He's from BC and one of the most knowledgable arborists that I know.


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## Old Monkey (Apr 17, 2005)

Clearance- You sure have knack for getting folks riled up. Have your crews ever used a tub grinder? Its a great way to keep all the material on site, stumps and all.


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## clearance (Apr 17, 2005)

Tom-good for you, the failure you describe is no big deal for 30 years. Look, I've seen trees on houses, across roads, powerlines that should have been cut down when Jesus was in diapers. I see trees that are going to fail, yesterday I saw uprooted cottonwoods on a 45 degree angle that will fall onto the freeway. I have seen fir snags in parks well over 100' that are stone cold, no branches, many of them in striking distance of playing fields. City arborists have got me to "wildlife" trees at 20-30' that were leaning over trails or onto peoples yards. It goes on and on, sorry I slagged you guys, maybe if you were here you could take care of a few things. Went of painting with a sprayer.


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## treeseer (Apr 17, 2005)

clearance said:


> "wildlife" trees at 20-30' that were leaning over trails or onto peoples yards.


 I do this a lot; trunks 30' from a target are left at 29' high. If they're asking you to leave the snag taller than the distance to the target, maybe they figure the reduction in risk by shortening makes it ok. their call, which I understand is often hard to accept.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 18, 2005)

treeseer said:


> Umm, Mr. Collegian, can you tell me the meaning of that (non-)sentence?  If marinating is soaking in a sauce, are you saying that we should imbibe before participating?


The fragment was a literary device missing the preposition "in" to read: Bash bash bash. Without a marinating *in* the culture and actions of the organizations.

Happy now? Wow. That was a nit to pick.



clearance said:


> Look, I've seen trees on houses, across roads, powerlines that should have been cut down when Jesus was in diapers.


Wouldn't it be best to cut down the trees the day before they fall or fail? If that's the case (and I assume it is), let's do our best to prolong the life of the tree and delay that final day. When it's time to remove because failure is approaching (a judgement call to be sure), by all means remove. 

I want people to love trees, and I would hate for them to have a bad connotation with trees because of a failure. So let's do what we can for the good of the trees and people because it comes back to us.


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## treeseer (Apr 18, 2005)

Nickrosis said:


> The fragment was a literary device missing the preposition "the"


Actually it was missing the "in", but I understand now. I ain't gonna fuss bout grammar long's I know what you're talking about.

"So let's do what we can for the good of the trees and people because it comes back to us."

now that's what we all should be talking about.


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## vharrison2 (Apr 18, 2005)

Educate, educate, educate.


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## Old Monkey (Apr 18, 2005)

When I was a kid there was a drawing in three or four panels up on the library wall. The first panel showed a small copse of trees, a meadow with a stream going through it, everything pristine and beautiful. In the next panel some settlers have moved in fenced the meadow, cut down some of the trees for building and for cultivation, built some houses and dammed the stream. In the next panel a small town is forming and the only trees left are in courtyards or in peoples yards. By the last panel concrete covers the scene and the only living plants are assigned to little patches of soil. I looked and looked at that drawing as a kid and I think it had an effect on me.

I have always wanted to but lack the skill to draw the history of a large tree in panels like that. The first panel would be of an oak seedling. It would get bigger and bigger and somewhere down the line there would be a native american village beneath its shade. Later a farmer would run barbed wire on it for the corner of his pasture(Much to the chagrin of a tree trimmer a hundred years down the line). Homes start to appear around the base of the grand old tree. Then, the California touch, the wealthy home builder who loves nature designs a house around our tree complete with a deck that surrounds the base of the tree and a hot tub under its loving shade. Of course a few branches had to go for the, oh so stylish, vaulted ceilings. Then in our second to last panel a windstorm has broken off a good sized spar and it damaged the beautiful house. Last panel shows me cutting the tree down as a teary eyed homeowner looks on. "I just couldn't sleep at night thinking about what will fall off next. Sob!"

My apologies for deviating from the original thread.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 18, 2005)

no apoligises needed Old Monkey, I had my questions answered and enjoy (for the most part) where this thread is heading

Nickrosis, I'd say you are doing a disservice to the homeowner with the above example

if the tree has a main lead fail, requiring removal, and at that time it is a good estimate that the tree will need to come down totally in, you pick it 3, 5, 10 years, and you just remove the lead to "prolong the life of the tree and delay that final day" you are definetly not working in the homeowners best interest
Total cost to remove the tree on two occasions is going to be greater that on the first visit
plus they would then have an early start to replace with a more appropiate tree for the spot

I was always under the impression that it was ISA's stance that if "it is the wrong tree in the wrong spot, take it down and replace it with a more suitable tree" That's actually from an ISA seminar I attended.

got to go, we'll talk more


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## treeseer (Apr 18, 2005)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> you just remove the lead to "prolong the life of the tree and delay that final day" you are definetly not working in the homeowners best interest


Isn't that the tree owner's decision? Fully disclose all alternatives and let them pick. If you try to steer them toward removal based on your perception of their economic and other values, you may find that they have values you'll never understand. You may also lose credibility with them by showing bias.

I don't know which seminar you heard that from; many different presenters at ISA sessions have different backgrounds  and will present them differently. Arborists facilitate the coexistence of trees and people; to me this does not mean removal is the first resort. Read http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/mature_care.asp
For an arborist, removal seems to be the last option.

"Peer-reviewed" does not mean there is no disagreement among individual presenters, that I can personally promise you. Besides, nO one strategy fits every tree situation, that's what makes it so much fun!


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## Nickrosis (Apr 18, 2005)

Well stated. I kind of enjoy this - everything I say is from an ISA presenter. 

Clearly I'm speaking from a standpoint of money not being an option and the ideal goal here (at our company at least) is to create and maintain beauty. If the tree is undesirable from an aesthetic perspective, it's coming down like it or not. Of course trees are valued for their beauty and the fact that people call, asking us to save their tree, is a testimony to that. Plus sentimental and utilitarian values, as well.


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## treeseer (Apr 18, 2005)

Nickrosis said:


> utilitarian values, as well.


THese are first and foremost; what values the tree contributes to the property. Benefit/cost, Asset/liability.

Nick I get just ten minutes in Nashville, a demotion of sorts, a relegation really. 
But it's all good.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 19, 2005)

I'm trying to stay mad about your correcting of my grammar, but I'm never very good at grudges. Ask Netree.

It may be utilitarian values first for you. It may be sentimental values first for the next person. It's somewhat of a revolving topic and even tree-specific. If we can help the customer make a decision based on their values, we're doing our job.


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## jmack (Apr 19, 2005)

John-Paul I liked your response to isa and tcia short and sweet 
jmzack husky 335 sthil 200t, 026 jonnie red 2083,2065,2150,490,husky 385,372,poulan 505 . :blob5:


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 27, 2005)

There are ways that TCIA can help out businesses, especially young, new ones. Since most people who start doing treework are better arborists that business operators they know little about how to run a successful company. TCIA has support for business and regulatory issues. Being a member gives you access to lots of great tools. 

Think of membership in professional organizations like buying a new tool. How much work will it do? How much better will my company be if we bought the tool? If we have the tool can we be better prepared to take on new jobs that are more profitable?

The support from TCIA after an OSHA inspection could make the membership fees seem like a real bargain.


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## Stumper (Apr 27, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Since most people who start doing treework are better arborists that business operators they know little about how to run a successful company. .


 Tom I have no quarrel with your primary point in that last post but the sentence quoted is debatable. My observation is that most who start out are terrible both as arborists and businessmen but a higher percentage seem to understand the rudiments of business than understand tree care.FWIW, My thinking parrallels JPS'. I think TCIA prices themselves out of many small operations' membership. ISA is my choice. ISA offers a lot of info for the consumer-info that supports professional tree care. TCIA's emphasis IS on business concerns. Much of TCIA magazine and their org. in general is focused on employer and regulatory issues.-That isn't a bad thing but it doesn't fit with MY interests as much as ISA's focus on biology.


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## Chris Francis (Mar 22, 2015)

I realize this thread is ten years old, but the debate is pretty much the same. ISA is well-worth the membership fee just in savings alone: CA renewal, books, conferences, etc...

I came across this thread while researching TCIA myself. The initial year is a bargain; subsequent years could get costly.


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## treeseer (Mar 25, 2015)

So...join! I quit when i downsized but they're a good outfit.


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## Chris Francis (Mar 25, 2015)

I am still trying to figure out the benefit of being a TCIA member. I have exchanged emails with them and talked to several very nice people on the phone. Members get discounts on education materials and some help with tree-business issues like OSHA violations. Plus, your business gets listed on their website. Oh, and new members get a pile of ANSI Standards (which I already have) and a few other goodies. For $500 to $1,000 per year, that does not seem like much. I have not ruled it out, and I am not trying to talk anyone out of joining. It seems like a great organization. I am just trying to figure out the true benefits of joining.


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