# friction hitches,how safe are they!!?



## freeweight (Jul 4, 2010)

are there any tests or experiments to see just how well the hitches work to stop a good amout of weight from falling from a good distance?

i was show the taut line when i first started but i wasnt comfy on the 'two under /two over" so i did two under 3 over and liked it,then switched to the BH and found when descending i would slide a extra 2-5 inches whe i stopped i didnt like this,so i did a 5/3 BH but then i got to playing AROUND ,and rigged a weird blakes up that was 3 over one under then up through the bridge back,i like this,or 4 over ,one under then up through the NORMAL two that is used in BH,i feel safe of this ,

but im curious ,just how well would these hitches stop 220pounds falling a good ways ...


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## ssurveyor (Jul 4, 2010)

*friction hitch drop testing*

Here is an article that may answer your question. several hitches were tested including the Blake's.

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/pdfs/FrictionHitchCompilation.pdf


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## RacerX (Jul 4, 2010)

ssurveyor said:


> Here is an article that may answer your question. several hitches were tested including the Blake's.
> 
> http://www.treemettlenexus.com/pdfs/FrictionHitchCompilation.pdf




Excellent article. Seems like they're leaning towards using mostly 10mm or larger prusik cords. I prefer a 10mm but from what I've read here on this forum many climbers prefer smaller cords. Very interesting. Thanks for posting the article.


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## imagineero (Jul 5, 2010)

you might also like to read this

http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/equipment/03_Tests_Equipment_BWRS.pdf

which was done by my local mountain rescue team with a load cell borrowed from a mine. I come from primarily a climbing and caving background, and this article game me food for thought. I started on prussiks in my early days, went to mechanical devices and mainly ended up using things like mini traxions and shunts. The fail point for the prussiks, even at smaller sizes, outdoes most of the mechanical ascenders. I always used 7mm or 8mm prusik. 10 is too much and you wont get bite - it will just slip. Ive seen guys using prussik cord as small as 5mm.

Shaun


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## treesquirrel (Jul 5, 2010)

8mm bee line for me, never had any issues. Holds like glue, I use a schwabish.


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## tree MDS (Jul 5, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> 8mm bee line for me, never had any issues. Holds like glue, I use a schwabish.



Have you tried the vt too? If so how would you comprare the two re tending? Does the swab tighten up a lot and require loosening? 

Thinking of trying that same deal this week.


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## freeweight (Jul 5, 2010)

well ive never used split tails or eye to eyes so maybe i dont get it ,what is the line(s) made of that will prevent 10mm from catching hold? ...not trying to be a smart ass just never had experience with this ,i mean climbing lines bite and they are bigger


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## oldirty (Jul 5, 2010)

mds. when you gonna try the distal, my nistal? not a bad knot man.


freeweight. i take it you climb in a very old school type of system.

get yourself 2 biner and 1 mini pulley and start trying to use a slpittail setup and evolve your climbing system from there. its so easy even a cave man could do it, right mds?


edit: 10mm beeline for me.


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## tree MDS (Jul 5, 2010)

oldirty said:


> mds. when you gonna try the distal, my nistal? not a bad knot man.
> 
> 
> freeweight. i take it you climb in a very old school type of system.
> ...



Yeah, thats right, been meaning to try the distal.. something 10mm too. that 8mm is just too small.

That is funny about the caveman deal.. just remember, I was climbing trees when you were still in your diapers tough guy. lol. :monkey:

Edit: old school baby!


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## tree md (Jul 5, 2010)

I don't understand why the 10mm is not biting for you. Are you climbing on 10mm line and tying your hitch on a traditional system or is it a 10mm split tail?

When I climbed on a traditional system I used the tail of my line to tie my hitch and never had any problems with the hitch not biting or slipping on the half inch line. Same thing when I went to a split tail... Still using half inch. I tried the Blakes and Tautline but I preferred to climb on a prussic back then; 2 over 3 with both ends exiting the coils in the same direction. When I was younger and skinnier I would climb 2 over 2 but as I got older and gained weight it was necessary for me to add another coil to my hitch to keep it from slipping.

I would strongly recommend giving the split tail a go if you're not already climbing on one. So much more functional. It is a dynamic climbing system which allows you to recrotch or tie in at any point during your ascent (or descent) without having to untie and retie your hitch. I am climbing on kind of a minimalist system now. I am climbing on a VT using an 8mm HRC eye to eye prussic cord and using a boat swivel snap to tend my slack instead of a pulley. I also keep it all on one biner so it is light weight and efficient for me and I don't have my whole hitch system cluttered with gear. I do carry an extra biner with me in case I want to use the system on two biners, like when I am using my climb line as a secondary lanyard. If you're not climbing with some kind of split tail system now you are seriously limiting yourself and how fast you can work.

Edit: Oh yeah, I meant to comment on the smaller diameter cord. It is much more responsive than the heavier splitails or traditional hitch. My VT never binds up or slips on the 8mm. It still amazes me how responsive and slick this setup is. It's like climbing on a mechanical device.


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## treesquirrel (Jul 5, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Have you tried the vt too? If so how would you comprare the two re tending? Does the swab tighten up a lot and require loosening?
> 
> Thinking of trying that same deal this week.



I have not used a VT. I was but a simple prussic, or blakes hitch user until trying the schwabish. I really trust this hitch and it releases well and is easier to re-set and loosen from heavy loading than a prussic. I have yet to have one tighten up so much it made life difficult but I fuss over my friction hitches a lot, maybe too much. Checking, checking, and checking them for anything and everything while I am moving around the canopy.


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## 1I'dJak (Jul 5, 2010)

I zipped down my climb line 60' when grappling over to another tree from the one I was tied on to. It was wet and my grapple broke...shooting me back 15'-20'. My blakes hitch didn't grab my line and I zipped all the way down my climb line down till I hit my stopper knot....thank god it was there! Sickening sound hearing the rope zinging thru...Best feeling in the world when I came to a stop with a big bounce. Shot back to the tree I was tied into feet first. Bent both shanks on my climbing spurs right in... Since then I don't trust my hitch so much in the wet... got rid of the blaze too...


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## treesquirrel (Jul 5, 2010)

tree md said:


> I would strongly recommend giving the split tail a go if you're not already climbing on one. So much more functional. It is a dynamic climbing system which allows you to recrotch or tie in at any point during your ascent (or descent) without having to untie and retie your hitch..



Ahh yes, my first time using a spit tail system killed any desire I ever had of going trad ever again. The only way I would climb traditional now is if I had to perform an aerial rescue with nothing but my harness, and a rope and a few biners. Not my choice but if a fellow tree guys life was in the balance I'd pretty much climb with some fishing line if I had too.


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## tree md (Jul 5, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> I have not used a VT. I was but a simple prussic, or blakes hitch user until trying the schwabish. I really trust this hitch and it releases well and is easier to re-set and loosen from heavy loading than a prussic. I have yet to have one tighten up so much it made life difficult but I fuss over my friction hitches a lot, maybe too much. Checking, checking, and checking them for anything and everything while I am moving around the canopy.



I haven't tried the Schwabish yet but that is the reason I love the VT; I never have to break my knot anymore. It never binds. the only thing is it produces more heat with the thinner cord and it gets hot to hold if you try to descend too fast. But I have yet to bind one up. The old school prussic was pretty good about not binding as well but it would bind if loaded heavy.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Jul 6, 2010)

*friction hitch*

I trust my friction hitch more than a mechanical device any day.


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## treesquirrel (Jul 7, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I've been a VT climber for six or so years now but always use a traditional system for my second tie in off the end of my main climbing rope. The best thing about the traditional system is.......it's always there!



Good point. Its always good to know how to set it and use if needed. I wonder what percent of new tree workers leap frog right over traditional rigging and would not know how to set it up if caught in a bind with few options.


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## freeweight (Jul 7, 2010)

yea right now and well always ive used just 120' TB rope a classic saddle ,one snap and "my own varietion of the BH" about to add a MP and a biner.

no offense whatso ever to yu guys but i just dont see the need for a whole bunch of stuff honestly,i GET the micro pulley,i tried one out on another guys equipment and loved it i call that a necessity honestly 

have you guys ever seen the key chain biners? well have you seen the ones that come withholes in them to add links ? or all ready have the circles to put the keys onto

its a WONDER there havent been biners made with pulley's attached or somthing like that i dunno just a thought


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## pdqdl (Jul 7, 2010)

I've got three of these, I use them on speedlines: 







http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Accessory-Non-locking-/Carabiner-285

If you really want a secure pulley/carabiner, you can always step up to this upgrade: http://www.ultrarob.com/shop/product/DMM-Revolver-Screwgate-Carabiner-Pulley.html


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## tree md (Jul 7, 2010)

Those revolver biners look sweet. Have yet to try them out. I've got three captive eyes I use for speed lines.


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## pdqdl (Jul 7, 2010)

I was a bit disappointed with how well they perform on the speed line.

They are plenty sturdy, and they are easy to use, but the small diameter of the roller does not really freewheel down the rope as well as I had hoped. The little roller does do a very nice job of protecting the carabiner and rope from damage, but it does not roll down the speed line as well as a real pulley. I think the small diameter roller incurs too much friction. My 2 inch CMI pulley would run away from it in a race to the ground.

They do slide down better than a carabiner with no roller at all.


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## treeseer (Jul 7, 2010)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> I trust my friction hitch more than a mechanical device any day.



:agree2:

45 years on a tautline and it hasn't failed me yet.

Rollout hahaha only happens when the knot is undressed.


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## moss (Jul 7, 2010)

freeweight said:


> but im curious ,just how well would these hitches stop 220pounds falling a good ways ...



I think your body will break before the hitch cord does. I guess it depends what you mean by "falling a good ways", none of the stuff we climb on is intended to catch a big fall.
-moss


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 8, 2010)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> I trust my friction hitch more than a mechanical device any day.



 

The whole mechanical ascender/descender issue is a joke, to my way of thinking. It is a way for companies to keep coming up with new toys, ever so often, so they can rip you off. Give me my climbing line, a split-tail with a Blake's and my saddle, and I'll get around in a tree just as easily, and safely, as those with all of the fancy, new gizmos.

OK, I just thought of something: I do use a CMI foot ascender when I need to get up on my rope while it's hanging in the middle of nowhere. Other than that, I'm hip thrusting up using my Blake's.


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## imagineero (Jul 8, 2010)

Both mechanical and traditional rope only systems have their advantages. I come from a background of rope access over the last 15 years - rock climbing, caving, mountains rescue work and industrial access. If you are talking purely about ascension on a rope then you might as well forget using a prussik or variations of same - mechanical devices are the only way to be efficient and fast. I started on very basic equipment - harnesses tied together from webbing, prussiks, everything rope, no biners or devices. 

There are many levels of roped access though. When climbing, systems are dynamic for shock absorption. For tree work, I figure its much the same as caving, only easier. Ive gone up as much as a vertical kilometer to get out of some caves, most of it freehanging on ropes with no chance of using feet and hands on slippery wet limestone. I'd challenge anybody to get up even a few rope lengths using only prussiks - its exhausting!

All systems have their place. Most guys in trees are really using the rope mainly for assistance. A lot of guys use spurs. We stand on branches a lot of the time, or climb them. I always climb using the branches in preference to using the rope, it's so much faster. Then the rope is there to catch me if a branch snaps or whatever. Again, when we move down the tree, our weight is only on the rope some of the time. 

Whether rock climbing, in a tree, doing industrial access or any kind of rope work, I like to have options. With a couple of pulleys (hopefully one self locking) a couple of ascenders, a handfull of biners and maybe a belay device i can rig anything from a hall system to a quick ascension system, lower off, self belay or do a full rescue. I always carry prussik cords as a backup, and know many ways of adapting systems like using a few biners to make a belay brake etc. 

Its not really worth rubbishing one in favor of the other - all systems have their benefits. While its true that most high quality (and high price!) purpose designed tools are going to do their job incredibly well, it's also true that they are likely to not do any other job. With only a piece of rope, I can do a lot. But with a small arsenal of specialised tools plus a piece of rope, there are so many options, and all of them are good.

Shaun


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## tree md (Jul 8, 2010)

Mechanical ascenders have their place. I love mine. For getting into a tree without spiking they are great. But once I get up there I am working off of a friction hitch. I know of some who are working off of a mechanical system on a SRT line. More power to them.


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## D Mc (Jul 8, 2010)

imagineero said:


> Its not really worth rubbishing one in favor of the other - all systems have their benefits. While its true that most high quality (and high price!) purpose designed tools are going to do their job incredibly well, it's also true that they are likely to not do any other job. With only a piece of rope, I can do a lot. But with a small arsenal of specialised tools plus a piece of rope, there are so many options, and all of them are good.
> 
> Shaun



Nice post, Shaun. :agree2: 

Have you tried the Unicender? It is one specialised tool that can do many things very well.

Dave


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

As a lowlife dirt-sucking groundman of long standing who has had to tolerate and pick up after you bourgeois elitists through a thousand and one trees, may I say that you climbers talking about your trade is like listening to ten-year old girls debating the merits of the new Hannah Montana footwear line.

Now if you will excuse me, I will return to working harder than you for less money than you while having things dropped (thrown) on me from fifty-feet up.

Be nice to your ground-pounders, you altitudinal snobs.

_Don't worry, we'll still carry your gear for you if it's too heavy._


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## imagineero (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Be nice to your ground-pounders, you altitudinal snobs.



Dont worry too much.... From the ground, there isn't far to fall, all you can do is get down on your knees and grovel 

Shaun


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 8, 2010)

imagineero said:


> Dont worry too much.... From the ground, there isn't far to fall, all you can do is get down on your knees and grovel
> 
> Shaun



And make sure you put the damned oil cap on correctly! lol


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> And make sure you put the damned oil cap on correctly! lol



I get crap from my climber every day because he says I screw the caps of his XP338 on too tightly. But I've seen climbers draining oil in thirty-foot long spills when the cap comes off in the tree and I have no intention of taking the blame for that. The cap goes on tight or do it yourself.

Anyway, sorry to drag all this OT. Just venting for fun.

*Back to the knots!*


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> I get crap from my climber every day because he says I screw the caps of his XP338 on too tightly. But I've seen climbers draining oil in thirty-foot long spills when the cap comes off in the tree and I have no intention of taking the blame for that. The cap goes on tight or do it yourself.
> 
> Anyway, sorry to drag all this OT. Just venting for fun.
> 
> *Back to the knots!*


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 8, 2010)

imagineero said:


> I'd challenge anybody to get up even a few rope lengths using only prussiks - its exhausting!




I assume you're referencing prussiks that rock climbers and mountaineers use here, not the knots us tree climbers use and if that's the case, I'd agree. 

Though usually we're on a double rope system where there is no substitute for friction hitches, yes there are some mechanical devices that can complete the task and do it well but for the cost?...no better than a well tied VT and micro pulley. If we're talking SRT, than yes, mechanical is the only way to go.


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## CB1 (Aug 19, 2014)

July 2010????? where are all the commercial tree guys??????


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## sac-climber (Aug 22, 2014)

treeseer said:


> :agree2:
> 
> 45 years on a tautline and it hasn't failed me yet.
> 
> Rollout hahaha only happens when the knot is undressed.



Are you able to pull a chipper with a horse and buggy or do you just bring some goats along

Yes I know this thread is 4 years old, blame CB1, he dug it up first!


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## chevybob (Aug 23, 2014)

imagineero said:


> I always used 7mm or 8mm prusik. 10 is too much and you wont get bite - it will just slip
> 
> Shaun



Not to be a smartass but tie some 10mm bee line in a distel on 16 strand and then tell me 10mm doesn't bite

Or a 4 over 2 under VT


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## imagineero (Aug 23, 2014)

chevybob said:


> Not to be a smartass but tie some 10mm bee line in a distel on 16 strand and then tell me 10mm doesn't bite
> 
> Or a 4 over 2 under VT



Stop being a smartass


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## chevybob (Aug 23, 2014)

imagineero said:


> Stop being a smartass



Sometimes I can't help it

I try to be cautious I've noticed a lot of guys on this forum get butt hurt real easy


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## treeseer (Aug 23, 2014)

sac-climber said:


> Are you able to pull a chipper with a horse and buggy or do you just bring some goats along


After pruning, brush is typically cut up with a chainsaw and returned to the tree.


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