# Safety Blue blowout from 200 pound top



## SCTreeCare (Sep 1, 2005)

Last week I had a Samson Braid safety blue blow out. I was lowering a smalll top (200 pounds) and the rope blew out. The rope was tight and the shock weight was not significant. It was a bad strand of rope. There was no chemicals spilled on the rope, and the rope had probably 25 uses....
My partner has being doing tree work for 30 years and has never seen anything like it. I was about to rappel down with this line and I am 215 pounds!

So I guess another example of "always inspect your gear"....But if we can't trust 
ropes, what good are we?


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 1, 2005)

SCTreeCare said:


> I was about to rappel down with this line and I am 215 pounds!




What??? You use rigging gear for climbing? Not mixing the two is one of the most basic, cardinal rules of rope use.


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## darkstar (Sep 1, 2005)

definatly somthing else going on there how many times had you previously used that rope and to what capacity ?.... only one tiny strand of that rope will hold 200 lbs static,,,, no bouncing .....


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## tordon22 (Sep 1, 2005)

Kinda blows your confidence on the next time you take out another one. I,ve done some dumb stuff in my lifetime, pulling out stuck trucks with my climbing line, etc., but have been very fortunate and do not do those things now. Only time I've lost a top was a huge tulip poplar top, but I was using manilla and it went like nothing was even attached to it. Wierd feeling. The line you were using is good stuff. I,ve taken it above and beyond the limit. Gotta be some defect in it.


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## NickfromWI (Sep 1, 2005)

SCTreeCare said:


> Last week I had a Samson Braid safety blue blow out.




Okay, I know I might be the only one who cares about this, but can we verify what rope you're talking about? Samson makes Blue Streak, a blue and white striped rope. New England Ropes makes Braided Safety Blue, an all white rope with a blue core.

Which is it?

love
nick


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## darkstar (Sep 1, 2005)

sounds it broke where 2 ends of 2 different ropes / spools meet ... or the rope got acid on it or it suffered a sever cutting blow ...take out a tint strand and hang on it .... ive found these ropes to have incredible single strand strength ....


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## Dadatwins (Sep 1, 2005)

Like Dan said we need more details about the prior 25 uses of this line. I would like to possibly see a picture of the remaining line before passing judgement or assumptions. Glad no one was hurt and hopefully no property damaged.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 1, 2005)

I'd bet my donuts on finding some kind of previous cut in the rope. 

Another possibility is that they don't understand how a 200# piece of wood can develop a lot of energy in a free fall. If the rope was tight there could have been enough shock load to break the rope. 

He doesn't say anything about using any blocks or friction devices. Slam dunk rigging is hard on gear. 

Another possiblity is that this whole thread is a troll. We'll see if SC stops back and gives us more info.


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## Eagle1 (Sep 1, 2005)

Sure thing...had to have been cut or damaged.I am still waiting to hear what rope is was for sure though. 200lbs with no shock is nothing.


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## sal b (Sep 1, 2005)

the only time i have seen a new england snap is when pulling with the truck. thats an old rope that was first a climbing line retired to lowering line retired then used to pull stumps out and pull small sticks over. the thing was still strong as hell and only snapped when i gunned the truck like a madman to pull stump out. ( it was the end of the day was desperate) 1-21-06 its a few months later and just had a scary rope failure over a house. had 3 raps in porty. piece just missed house and landed on lawn. it was very lucky. boss who made cut thinks rope was old and no good. failed about 3 feet from knot


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## hobby climber (Sep 2, 2005)

SCTreeCare indicated in his profile that he is a certified arborist...but wouldn't he, off all people, know not to climb & rig on the same rope? I agree with Tom Re:troll! That said, rope history would be nice to know as well as there rigging set up. Storage of rope, had someone stuck a climbing spur into the rope & didn't know it? Was it inspected before the climb or that week at least? Was this rope bought brand new or used? ---- SCTreeCare, asks "But if we cant trust ropes' what good are we"? ---- Individually, we are only as good as the knowledge we received and having the good sense & ability to apply it in the trade! Being confident will help you...being over-confident will hurt you! Safety first and always! HC


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## CoreyTMorine (Sep 2, 2005)

*i had one brake*

I had one break two years ago. I was 50' up a red oak, where i secured a cmi 4"? steel rescue block. The sling was a 12’ piece of ½” hi-vee, tied to the tree with a cow then a few ½ hitches or marl’s to eat up some slack. The bottom leg of the cow terminated in an anchor hitch around a beefy steel biner, I forget the make. The top leg of the cow did not reeve through the biner. There was nothing but weed lawn below; I was only lowering to get the but faced away from the tree? I forget why I was lowering this thing. Maybe just to try and teach my good buddy “Hurricane Al” how to use a port-a-wrap. (type I port-a-wrap, looks like an old anchor.)

The lowering line is, ½” spearmint XTC.

Anyway, the block is attached to the biner, face cut looks good, attach the lowering line, and here we go. “OK, wrap it around like I showed you, good, now pull it up tight and take another coupla wraps. Good, now stand back about 20’, and just keep a steady hand on the rope, don’t pull to tight, let the device do the work.” 

Looks good, start the saw, get set on my flip line, climbing line is out of the way. Start the back cut. The top, about 400 pounds, starts to go, looking good, cut, cut, ok I’m through, the top is ½ way to gone. I hit the chain brake, kill the saw, and dump it to my right, over the flipline. The top is gone; I put my hands on the dinner plate on front of me, getting ready for the ride, when I hear this distant pop? Then I hear the top crashing to the ground, what the heck! 

The tree stops moving and I get a look around, “hey, where’d my block go?” then I spy it down amid the wreckage. The sling broke near where the bottom leg of the cow came up against the tree. “Something is not quite right here.” LOL

So I go down, it turns out that big al had somehow tied a clove hitch to the port-a-wrap. “I see says the blind man.” Not much give in that kind of system.

I went out and bought a 600’ spool of ½” three strand, the New England rope version. Now I just have Al, and everyone like him, take a coupla wraps around a tree. I have so far had good luck with that; it is a little more fool-proof.  

The bitter end: 

the sling was pretty old, 2 or 3 years. It has seen some hard use. Visually and tactilely (sp?) the rope was in good shape.

New England rope makes a great product at a good price. I have always had good experience with their customer service people (questions re splicing and chemical dangers) The line/sling broke because of operator error. Not because there was anything wrong with the rope itself. 

So, there it is. Beat it up all you want, I’ve got pretty thick skin.  

Follow up:

When I say “sling” I just mean a piece of line I use to secure something, not necessarily a loop, or whoopi, or something with an eye in either end.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 2, 2005)

No beating it up. Thanks for sharing. You describe how a 400 lb hunk of top can snap a rope, demonstrating clearly why we don't shock load. Weight, gravity, acceleration, elasticity, force, momentum, inertia. You pretty much covered it all there. Appreciate you letting us know WHERE the rope broke.


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## Dadatwins (Sep 2, 2005)

CoreyTMorine said:


> The bitter end:
> 
> the sling was pretty old, 2 or 3 years. It has seen some hard use. Visually and tactilely (sp?) the rope was in good shape.
> 
> ...



No beating up necessary, sounds like you figured out the problem and may have learned from the mistake, nicely done. Glad no one was hurt in the process. I will say that the newer porty is an improvement from the older one and a lot easier to use, and so much easier than running around the base of a tree with 80' of lowering line. Be careful.


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## SCTreeCare (Sep 2, 2005)

*response to questions*

I was surprised to see all the replies. Well more background info.
The distributor of the rope analyzed the break near the middle of the rope and found no chemical burns or abrasions of the sort that would cause the rope to fully fail. The rope was replaced with no questions asked. The rope was not cut. The top was so small that I made my pie and backcut with a handsaw. A handsaw would have smeared that rope and frayed it so bad that it would be obvious that it was cut.

Another thing, some climbers, including arborists, will use small climb lines as occasional tag lines with small rigging loads. The disbelievers can happily check the ISA website to see if I am an arborist WE-6869A. It is not a golden rule with all climbers that a climb line is never used for rigging. The ISA or ANSI would tell differently, but I bet there are many of you that have used a climb line in a similar situation. I have never used a climb line for heavy rigging. New England ropes at 1/2 diameter rated for 6200 tensile and that can tolerate probably at least 10% at shock should not have failed from 
a small top, whatever the rigging technique.

I have obviously started a debate, but what I was trying to offer is my experience with a rope trusted to hold that broke. That was scary to me, the saw shop I bought it from, fellow climbers and arborists, and my lady for that matter.

So eat it up as you wish. The 25 uses that preceded the rope were tautline hitch and monkey fist armpulls and descents only. This was the first time I had used this rope to lower a top. There was no friction from a crotch, the knot used was a running bowline, the rope was taught with a single brake on it. It had less life than the 15 year old Samson braid rope that I was given when I started to climb that still works great as a tagline.......


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## SCTreeCare (Sep 2, 2005)

*further followup*

oh by the way no property damage was incurred. I was happy about that. The crew thought I had just been ballsy and blew the top out on the patio below.......

surprise to everyone. I don't wish to incite paranoia, but just want to let people hear my experience. This thread is not a hoax.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 2, 2005)

That's really most interesting, the break. I don't think with 'human' forces the rope would have severed. With a climbing hitch the friction and tension is distributed across the wraps. With devices, the friction is not spread out; it's in one place, on a cam or pressure point. Could that have been a danger?

Yikes is what I say.

And although I don't personally condone using your rope for climbing and light rigging, if I WERE to condone such blatant climbing <i>faux pa's</i> I would suggest climbing on bull rope.

Laugh will you? You might be very surprised in the performance. Stable Braid 1/2". You should maybe have a 5/8 bull rope for lowering heavy stuff. Two bull ropes are your team.

Personally, I've never used 5/8. I've just most often in my career climbed on bull rope. When I retire it from climbing it gets used for rigging ops and lowering mid-heavy. I would be using two 13 mm stable braids, the one for climbing NEVER sees anything heavy until it is retired fully from climbing.


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## CoreyTMorine (Sep 3, 2005)

i bet the brake was up top. and i'm going to further surmise that it was a munter hitch. 

I'm workng out some equasions right now. 

it's early here, no tea yet, may say dumb things 

-time passes-
its to early to equate,  i'll go play sim city some more.


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## woodchux (Sep 3, 2005)

I. Thou shalt honor thy rope as thou would thy life.
II. Thou shalt keep thy rope away from harmful spirits.
III. Thou shalt not consort with ropes that are unclean, lest thou suffer a fall from grace.
IV. Thou shalt elevate thy rope above the downtrodden.
V. Thou shalt know the path thy rope has traveled.
VI. Thou shalt be neither a borrower nor a lender of climbing line.
VII. Thou shalt not treat thy climbing line as a beast of burden.
VII. Thou shalt keepeth thy rope cool.
IX. Thou shalt not associate with the coarse or the abrasive.
X. If thy rope offends the, thou shalt cut it with a knife and cast it into the deepest pit.



LIVE by it.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 3, 2005)

Most EXCELLENT !


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## Dadatwins (Sep 3, 2005)

woodchux said:


> I. Thou shalt honor thy rope as thou would thy life.
> II. Thou shalt keep thy rope away from harmful spirits.
> III. Thou shalt not consort with ropes that are unclean, lest thou suffer a fall from grace.
> IV. Thou shalt elevate thy rope above the downtrodden.
> ...



And thank you Mr. Don Blair for the 10 rope commandments.


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## darkstar (Sep 3, 2005)

i dunno sounds fishy ...yeah i smell fish :blob5: there has to be a more obvious reason ... so the manufacture really checked it out ....if so then this rope was severly shock loaded ....


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## stehansen (Sep 4, 2005)

I had a bull rope break once. I was cutting down a peice of cottonwood, about 8" at the big end and about 20' long with no leaves on it and it swung around and hit the rope where it was coming down from the anchor point and just smashed it against the tree trunk and everything came crashing down, but luckily it had enough momenteum swinging sideways that it landed clear of a fence that was below it.


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## treesurgeon (Sep 4, 2005)

one of the lackeys broke a rope one time by pulling a tree over with the truck before i finished making the back cut. i had three ropes on the tree. i always put on extras. it was a retired climbing rope and where it broke there was a small nick in one or two strands from past damage.


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## Eagle1 (Sep 4, 2005)

So....all the stories of rope breaks are from misuse or something. Still wondering why the blue failed at such a young age. The maker would love to have that rope to analize. But, I still think either massive shock or an un noticed cut.

I had a 3/4 three strand that never broke. This rope was only used to do all these crazy things but save my life. We pulled stumps, trees, cars etc. Almost never stored it proper. Still have it becuse there are no handsaw or chainsaw cuts in it.


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## CoreyTMorine (Sep 4, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Laugh will you? You might be very surprised in the performance. Stable Braid 1/2". You should maybe have a 5/8 bull rope for lowering heavy stuff. Two bull ropes are your team.
> 
> Personally, I've never used 5/8. I've just most often in my career climbed on bull rope.



TM, i've tried climbing on doublebraid a few times, always my climbing knot (blakes hitch) has caused the outer braid to bunch up. I havent spent much time with that kind of rig, but it does have some distinct advantages that i'm interested in. so, how do you overcome the outer core bunching up?


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## woodchux (Sep 4, 2005)

I've snapped a 5/8 arbrplex rope a couple times , jerking 1000 lb + logs out of a canyon.


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## notahacker (Sep 4, 2005)

I sometimes use a Munter Hitch while rigging. Anyone else use that while lowering lighter stuff? I use it for improvised situations only. It is not my first choice to lower limbs. 

I once made a Clove hitch (intending it to be a Munter hitch) while rigging. I watched the limb go no where and looked at my groundie like, "Hello down there. Are you going to let it run a little?" He shrugged his shoulders. I looked at the hitch and realized I made a stupid mistake. :Monkey: 

Now, if that chunk of wood was heavy and there was a lot of slop in the system I could have snapped that line. Thankfully some one above was helping out for me. :angel:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 5, 2005)

The sling with 400# would be double loaded in the pulley support position. A sharp bend on the pin holdling the pulley; X the impact of a 400# load X 2 X marking ink/other line destruction X knot/splice strenght efficiency loss less no relief for running line could concieveably reduce support strength below needs i think.

Backhand hitches slid/ Muenters give a tight leveraged bight from the load, as well as grinding the rope fibers in opposite directions against each other.

200# top, single loaded, low impact on line; don't seem right.


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## RedlineIt (Sep 5, 2005)

SCTreeCare,

Well let's face it, SOMETHING happened to that rope that made it fail. Not intending to be disbelieving or argumentative, but ropes don't become possessed by demons or go for a coffee break.

If it were my rope, I would by-pass the distributor and send this rope on to the manufacturer complete with the detailed history of this rope and the mode of failure. I would be insisting on a failure analysis by the manufacturer.

Could it be sabotage?! Do you have any disgruntled employees or ex-employees with access to your gear? 

Or even a green or foolish employee, who simply may not know better than to borrow a rope to pull a car out of a ditch?

Because let's face it, SOMETHING happened to that rope. It may even have happened before you purchased it.

Allow me to restate it: This rope needs to go back to the manufacturer for analysis. Who knows, they may find a flaw they can trace down to a quality control oversight on the shop floor, and issue a recall. It might save someones life.


RedlineIt


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## CoreyTMorine (Sep 7, 2005)

*SCTree? hello, are you still there?*

Well said redline. Sctree, are you still there? we want more info, we hunger for info here on the arboristsite. By the way, thanks for sharing your experience. 

if you are still there, the questions that are most pressing; 
exactly what type of rope? samson or newengland, and what model, blue streak, true blue, or safety blue. just describe the rope if unknown. but it is important.

also, what were you using for a brake? muenter hitch, fig 8, stub, or what. and where was the brake? sounded like it was right below the face cut, but i wasnt sure.

lastly (well last question in this post) in your second post you say that if the rope had been cut by a handsaw it would have been all ragged and tattered (misquote). Is it possible that you touched the rope with your handsaw while finishing the backcut? did you have to do alot of sawing to make the backcut (enough that your arm was getting pumped)?

hey, thanks for taking the time to share this info. i'm not trying to bust your chops here, i'm just really curious as to what happened and why.


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## clearance (Sep 8, 2005)

Redline is right, get it tested by the manufacturer. I want to believe you and I do not disbelieve you because I find it very hard to believe. All I can add is that have seen 1/2 lines break when they were being used to pull over leaners with a boom truck. I pulled some big birch leaners over against the lean with a rope I didn't really want to climb on any more, with my pickup, through a block to change direction. I sucked it up real tight first with a tirfor cause I only had about 20 ft. to back up. Probably at least 2-3 thousand lbs., singing tight when I backed up the truck. There is a logical explanation here.


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## darkstar (Sep 10, 2005)

battery acid would do the trick and go undetected


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## SCTreeCare (Nov 16, 2005)

*more info*

sorry folks, haven't been around for a while. too busy working......

the brake used was under the pie and was just wrapped around a stub. real simple rigging. it was a small tree and a very small top. The rope was definately not singed or cut. Shock load was definately on the rope, but not enough to break a strong rope. safety blue new england 1/2 was the model and make. 

I appreciate the comments about sending this rope straight to the manufacturer. Trouble is, when I turned in into the saw shop that sold it to me, the rope was not returned when the replacement rope was given to me. The distributor wanted to further check out the rope. The more I think of it now I am cautious to not believe he was destroying the evidence!

anyway I guess the takehome point is to pull that heavy ass bull rope up for everything..... and to watch your employees like hawks.?.?


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## NickfromWI (Nov 16, 2005)

I bet the retailer gave you the replacement rope to shut you up and they promptly discarded the rope. 

This, if true like you say it is, is very big. We have to trust our ropes 110%. The way you describe it, this rope shouldn't have broken. I'd like a more experience group of people to look at the rope..ie- the manufacturer. The retailer did what a retailer should do, replace a faulty product. But this isn't a vacuum cleaner. In this situation, faulty can equal death.

Can you find out more?

love
nick


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## Bodean (Nov 16, 2005)

I use Safety Blue. It's one of the few that won't bunch up when you squish it together. I mean to say that if you push two ends together the rope does not bunch up, as in your tautline. Only time I 've broken a rope was taking a way too big top of a walnut with a 1/2 inch line. The problem was that the Ropero took like two wraps on the tree and not enough run. So it seized up and snapped in my face right at the block. The only time I've used a bucket incidently. Scares me to hear of a climb line breaking, especially the one I use. Oh yeah the top landed right behind the cab. Lucky I guess not to destroy hydraulic hoses. I love learning about tree stuff and equip here though.
D


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## Dadatwins (Nov 16, 2005)

I am still not sure about the circumstances behind this rope failure, I have seen a few lines fail in the past 20+ years but most were punished beyond their life span or simply overloaded by pulling with a truck. To hear of a relativly new climbing line fail without warning or any outward signals is very disturbing. Equally disturbing is the vendor simply doing an exchange and no recall issued on similiar line. I appreciate the poster bringing this failure to my attention, but this whole story still seems to have some gray area in my opinion.


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## NickfromWI (Nov 17, 2005)

Dada- exactly. They CAN'T just sweep this under the rug. This story, as is, is simply NOT believable.

For now I will consider it fiction until someone proves it otherwise.

love
nick


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