# why is face only 1/3?



## cmossol (Jul 27, 2020)

I don't understand why the face cut is only 1/3 on a straight tree if you are not using wedges. If the tree is perfectly vertical, healthy and balanced it seems to me the tree would fall backwards and pinch the blade. Or is this only done when the tree is leaning in the direction of the face cut? What's up?


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## Del_ (Jul 27, 2020)

If the tree were perfectly balanced you would have a point. Few are. An error of judgement leaves the feller without enough wood to use wedges.


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## Old2stroke (Jul 27, 2020)

Look at it this way, a tree is a column of wood that is under compression because of the weight. If you remove a piece of the trunk, that part of the trunk no longer gives support and biases the tree to lean in that direction. If the centre of mass was directly over the centre of the trunk, it will now move slightly to the side where the support is missing and the back cut should finish the job smoothly. Usual screw-ups are because of judgement errors in where the centre of mass actually is due to lean, distribution of limbs, wind, etc.


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## Wood Doctor (Jul 27, 2020)

Straight trees may be the hardest ones to predict which direction they will fall. These are the ones that most require felling wedges to drop them and anything else that you can use to steer the direction of the fall. Heck, if the tree is already leaning, you can almost forget about felling wedges to steer it down. The drop cut just above the wedge cut will produce a hinge and the tree's weight will take it down.


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## cmossol (Jul 27, 2020)

Old2stroke said:


> Look at it this way, a tree is a column of wood that is under compression because of the weight. If you remove a piece of the trunk, that part of the trunk no longer gives support and biases the tree to lean in that direction. If the centre of mass was directly over the centre of the trunk, it will now move slightly to the side where the support is missing and the back cut should finish the job smoothly. Usual screw-ups are because of judgement errors in where the centre of mass actually is due to lean, distribution of limbs, wind, etc.


Thanks, I like your details. The mass of the wedge removed is minuscule compared to mass of the tree, so the the center of mass is still pretty much dead center. Once the back cut passes through the center, isn't the support more towards the front? If the force is still in the center, shouldn't the tree fall away from the support and pinch the blade? Sort of like Jenga, where you remove one from the front, and 2 for the back cut

I know somehow you are right, but I still don't get it. So far I drop trees in the direction of the lean, until I understand better.


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## outdoortype (Jul 27, 2020)

Yep, the straight ones scare me the most


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## cmossol (Jul 27, 2020)

Wood Doctor said:


> Straight trees may be the hardest ones to predict which direction they will fall. These are the ones that most require felling wedges to drop them and anything else that you can use to steer the direction of the fall. Heck, if the tree is already leaning, you can almost forget about felling wedges to steer it down. The drop cut just above the wedge cut will produce a hinge and the tree's weight will take it down.


Yup, I trust gravity. So far I only drop them if it has a good lean.


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## cmossol (Jul 27, 2020)

cmossol said:


> Thanks, I like your details. The mass of the wedge removed is minuscule compared to mass of the tree, so the the center of mass is still pretty much dead center. Once the back cut passes through the center, isn't the support more towards the front? If the force is still in the center, shouldn't the tree fall away from the support and pinch the blade? Sort of like Jenga, where you remove one from the front, and 2 for the back cut
> 
> I know somehow you are right, but I still don't get it. So far I drop trees in the direction of the lean, until I understand better.


An extreme example of this would be if you did a 1% face cut, and started on a 99% back cut, I think you would pinch the blade. I'm not suggesting to do it, just taking the problem to an extreme.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 27, 2020)

cmossol said:


> I don't understand why the face cut is only 1/3 on a straight tree if you are not using wedges. If the tree is perfectly vertical, healthy and balanced it seems to me the tree would fall backwards and pinch the blade. Or is this only done when the tree is leaning in the direction of the face cut? What's up?


Yes, that's the guideline for a forward leaning tree with top weigh to pull it down. Too deep can cause excessive tension in the back cut, there causing it to go prematurely and devalue timber, barber chair the tree or possibly pop the root system.
If you are not sure on the lean then B.C. fallers guidelines call for 25% undercut for trees to be wedged.
(It will make It easier to wedge than a deep undercut)
If you have a stubby tree. Just a shorter stub with no top weight when a deeper undercut will help.


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## cmossol (Jul 27, 2020)

Del_ said:


> If the tree were perfectly balanced you would have a point. Few are. An error of judgement leaves the feller without enough wood to use wedges.


OK, that makes sense. I'm still looking for a perfectly balanced tree, and how to understand women.


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## motorhead99999 (Jul 27, 2020)

cmossol said:


> OK, that makes sense. I'm still looking for a perfectly balanced tree, and how to understand women.


Aren’t we all


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## Wood Doctor (Jul 27, 2020)

cmossol said:


> OK, that makes sense. I'm still looking for a perfectly balanced tree, and how to understand women.


It might actually be much easier to understand the balanced tree than to understand women. I've been trying hard to understand them both for six decades. It could be an impossible mission.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 28, 2020)

cmossol said:


> I don't understand why the face cut is only 1/3 on a straight tree if you are not using wedges. If the tree is perfectly vertical, healthy and balanced it seems to me the tree would fall backwards and pinch the blade. Or is this only done when the tree is leaning in the direction of the face cut? What's up?


So... 

There is no such thing as a perfect tree, there are many that are close, but every tree has some sort of favor to one side or another

the 1/3 rule is like piracy laws, just a guideline, sometimes you wan't less then a 1/3 sometimes closer to 40% or even damned near 1/2. 

the assumption is that you will use a wedge, even if the tree is perfect, the weather isn't, the wedge prevents the tree from sitting back, even if its just palmed in, then once you cross centerline or even not quite centerline, gravity from the face cut takes over, pulling the tree to the desired direction, but without that wedge, it more then likely will set back

I'm guessing this is another one of those instances where some grandpa somewhere made some **** up and since grandpa was old, everyone believed him, and didn't bother to look for their own answers, the theory more then likely being reaffirmed by dumb luck or subconsciously falling timber with the lean, and never needing to fight the lean

Now having said all that, a relatively straight tree, with a deep face cut more then likely will go where you want it, in fact as a rule I tend to make faces way deeper then 1/3, especially on timber big enough to sink a wedge to the hilt, any extra weight I can get on the face side is less work to lift over.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 28, 2020)

This may help some understand. I am a big believer in wedges to move trees the way I want. Some times wedges and a tag line are necessary. My expertise and job in many cases is to put trees where they are desired regardless of the lean. Wedges are just one tool to make that happen. I use mostly Oak limb wedges as they are plentiful and inexpensive. If one cuts in the middle of a very obviously leaning tree it will not fall or move. The tree is being held up by the remaining 50% of the trunk. If calculations were made as an example a tree has 2,000 lbs more on one side than the other this can be made up easily with wedges. It is not uncommon for me to use five or more wedges. I will make a back cut just deep enough to get wedges behind the bar and tap them in tight. As I continue cutting I drive five wedges in the back cut as far as possible lifting that side of tree up. The hinge is not often going break if there are still several inches holding. The hinge is holding the tree down while the wedges are lifting up the very out side of the trunk. Each wedge can lift 500 lbs so I have exerted 2,500 lbs of lifting on the out side edge of the tree. With this being said the tree will start to tilt to the direction I want it to go. I often allow for a healthy amount of the hinge to remain intact until I see the tree moving then proceed to continue cutting until it is laying down. Thanks


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## Philbert (Jul 28, 2020)

A lot of good comments about 'perfectly straight trees' (telephone poles), wedges, etc. Also good that you are trying to understand what is going on. 

I was taught to get a wedge in the back cut as soon as possible to prevent the tree from pinching the bar. Essentially, you want all of the weight left on that 'hinge' / 'holding wood', with the tree balanced on it, so that you can wedge the top over toward the face cut side, and let the weight of the tree do the rest. If you cut the face too deep, the weight of the tree might pinch the bar in the face, or pull the tree over in a less controlled manner.

This method works well with a chainsaw or crosscut saw. I am really interested in understanding more about how trees are felled using just axes, where wedging a back cut is not an option.





How Were Trees Cut Before Saws?


OK, this is an amazingly simple question. I understand that before chainsaws we had crosscut saws. And before then we had steel, and bronze and stone axes. Does anyone know the techniques used to cut down large trees before saws (and before nylon ropes and steel cables and steam donkeys and . ...




www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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## InfiniteJest (Jul 28, 2020)

1/3 because OSHA knows best.
I'll go 1/2+ on a tree that looks sky bound. I want the weight to shift. You'll see it shift in the top, or feel it through the saw. Wedges are a last resort.
Not that I'd listen to me...I'm not endorsing short cuts if you're not in a production setting. I just like to keep the yarder socially distanced.


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## Jhenderson (Jul 29, 2020)

1/3 because there’s no need to cut extra wood. The face takes 2 cuts. The back cut takes 1. 1/3 will generally give you 80% of the diameter . Plenty of hinge.


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## catbuster (Jul 30, 2020)

Because it works, and it gives you enough to set wedges even on a small tree. Your wedges prevent your *bar* (unless you’re cutting trees with a quickie saw, circ saw or sawzall) from having the tree sit back on it and pinching it.

Big trees allow bigger faces, and yes, in theory just over 1/2 would cause a perfectly balanced tree to go right where you want it to go. That said, you’re crippling the tree with the undercut, placing the back of the tree in tension, and wedges then continue to hold it in such a way that the back cut does not cause it to sit back. From there, the back cut releases the tension side until the stress in the wood exceeds the capacity of the wood and the hinge fails. This is, of course, assuming perfect balance, which is pretty much nonexistent anywhere.


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## woodfarmer (Jul 31, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> This may help some understand. I am a big believer in wedges to move trees the way I want. Some times wedges and a tag line are necessary. My expertise and job in many cases is to put trees where they are desired regardless of the lean. Wedges are just one tool to make that happen. I use mostly Oak limb wedges as they are plentiful and inexpensive. If one cuts in the middle of a very obviously leaning tree it will not fall or move. The tree is being held up by the remaining 50% of the trunk. If calculations were made as an example a tree has 2,000 lbs more on one side than the other this can be made up easily with wedges. It is not uncommon for me to use five or more wedges. I will make a back cut just deep enough to get wedges behind the bar and tap them in tight. As I continue cutting I drive five wedges in the back cut as far as possible lifting that side of tree up. The hinge is not often going break if there are still several inches holding. The hinge is holding the tree down while the wedges are lifting up the very out side of the trunk. Each wedge can lift 500 lbs so I have exerted 2,500 lbs of lifting on the out side edge of the tree. With this being said the tree will start to tilt to the direction I want it to go. I often allow for a healthy amount of the hinge to remain intact until I see the tree moving then proceed to continue cutting until it is laying down. Thanks


Pictures?


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## cmossol (Aug 4, 2020)

Thanks everyone! I'm on my way to the store to pick up more wedges.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 4, 2020)

cmossol said:


> Thanks everyone! I'm on my way to the store to pick up more wedges.


****, thats what I was supposed to do on the way home...


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## slowp (Aug 4, 2020)

1/3 is easier to figure out than 4/12ths.


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## Philbert (Aug 4, 2020)

slowp said:


> 1/3 is easier to figure out than 4/12ths.


What about Canada? Do they use metric fractions? Anybody from WorkSafeBC in this thread?

Philbert


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## northmanlogging (Aug 4, 2020)

Philbert said:


> What about Canada? Do they use metric fractions? Anybody from WorkSafeBC in this thread?
> 
> Philbert


.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333xpie/2+.75 

but what do I know, I'm just a yank


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## woodfarmer (Aug 5, 2020)

Nah, we just start at the front of the tree and cut to the back, works every time.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 5, 2020)

I am a bit surprised how different people try to deal with the sequence for tree removal. All trees lean one way or the other as they grow a little different every time. After practice either on your own or working with an experienced operator one will make adjustments as to how feasible or safe each particular tree should be addressed. After some practice and with some experience an operator will become skilled arbor technician. Of course time is money. A skilled technician will have plenty of work and be well paid. I wrote out a chart as to the sequence that I use on a day to day basis. Thanks


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## slowp (Aug 5, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I am a bit surprised how different people try to deal with the sequence for tree removal. All trees lean one way or the other as they grow a little different every time. After practice either on your own or working with an experienced operator one will make adjustments as to how feasible or safe each particular tree should be addressed. After some practice and with some experience an operator will become skilled arbor technician. Of course time is money. A skilled technician will have plenty of work and be well paid. I wrote out a chart as to the sequence that I use on a day to day basis. Thanks



OK, so we'll call it 33%. That would be rounding off a bit on the ciphering. 

My former neighbor called the inaction of a stubborn tree, sattin' back. As in "She started sattin' back so I had to pour it to the saw." Or, "You gotta be careful cuz that tree'll sat back." He is a very good faller, by the way, but semi-retired.


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## Bwildered (Aug 6, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I am a bit surprised how different people try to deal with the sequence for tree removal. All trees lean one way or the other as they grow a little different every time. After practice either on your own or working with an experienced operator one will make adjustments as to how feasible or safe each particular tree should be addressed. After some practice and with some experience an operator will become skilled arbor technician. Of course time is money. A skilled technician will have plenty of work and be well paid. I wrote out a chart as to the sequence that I use on a day to day basis. Thanks



That chart looks like a recipe for disaster


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## catbuster (Aug 6, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> That chart looks like a recipe for disaster



I sure wouldn’t do it on most trees, but it’s pretty much the recipe for making a back leaner go the way you want it to go. ‘Cept in the woods tag lines are hard to come by so sizing up the tree is more important, sometimes you just have to know when it may just be best to lay the tree out perpendicular or opposite of the lay. I guess all the trees in Ted’s area are back leaners that have to go in a certain direction...


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## InfiniteJest (Aug 6, 2020)

slowp said:


> OK, so we'll call it 33%. That would be rounding off a bit on the ciphering.
> 
> My former neighbor called the inaction of a stubborn tree, sattin' back. As in "She started sattin' back so I had to pour it to the saw." Or, "You gotta be careful cuz that tree'll sat back." He is a very good faller, by the way, but semi-retired.



Was that neighbor Bob or Randy?

Sorry, couldn't help myself......


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## Bwildered (Aug 7, 2020)

catbuster said:


> I sure wouldn’t do it on most trees, but it’s pretty much the recipe for making a back leaner go the way you want it to go. ‘Cept in the woods tag lines are hard to come by so sizing up the tree is more important, sometimes you just have to know when it may just be best to lay the tree out perpendicular or opposite of the lay. I guess all the trees in Ted’s area are back leaners that have to go in a certain direction...


Id do it if I wanted to pinch the bar every time I did the face cut


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## slowp (Aug 7, 2020)

InfiniteJest said:


> Was that neighbor Bob or Randy?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself......



Neither. Did I not say a neighbor? Plus, I don't think either uses the expressions brought to the Big Bottom by the folks who settled the area. They were from East Tennessee. Sattin' back. Swarp the unit. Go out town. Etc.

No charts needed. I was helping with a campground hazard tree removal, making sure nobody wandered in. We met at one of the big trees that needed to come down. This guy was asked what his procedure was going to be to get the tree down. It was a large, old growth bottom growing D-fir with a lean and some rot. He replied, "I'm gonna cut 'er down. And if she don't go that way, I'm gonna run like hell." The tree went in the planned direction and no running was needed. All picnic tables and toilets survived. Campground logging can be interesting.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 7, 2020)

slowp said:


> Neither. Did I not say a neighbor? Plus, I don't think either uses the expressions brought to the Big Bottom by the folks who settled the area. They were from East Tennessee. Sattin' back. Swarp the unit. Go out town. Etc.
> 
> No charts needed. I was helping with a campground hazard tree removal, making sure nobody wandered in. We met at one of the big trees that needed to come down. This guy was asked what his procedure was going to be to get the tree down. It was a large, old growth bottom growing D-fir with a lean and some rot. He replied, "I'm gonna cut 'er down. And if she don't go that way, I'm gonna run like hell." The tree went in the planned direction and no running was needed. All picnic tables and toilets survived. Campground logging can be interesting.


Sigh... this should be my new motto on the side of the trucks... "I'm gonna cut it down, and if it don't go that way, I'm gonna run" 

Most of the fallers I know are men of few words about the job, stories yes we got stories, but when it comes to tipping trees, not much to talk about other then to belly up, eyeball the lean, and see if you can get it to do what you wan't it to do, if it don't work, run like Hel, but then if it don't work, well, then you got another story lol


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Sigh... this should be my new motto on the side of the trucks... "I'm gonna cut it down, and if it don't go that way, I'm gonna run"
> 
> Most of the fallers I know are men of few words about the job, stories yes we got stories, but when it comes to tipping trees, not much to talk about other then to belly up, eyeball the lean, and see if you can get it to do what you wan't it to do, if it don't work, run like Hel, but then if it don't work, well, then you got another story lol



I believe that "Run Like Hell" is an industry slogan. That's how I tore a leg muscle. In that incident, the tree landed exactly where I had been standing. It also applies to working in the rigging although we could add duck or dive to that as in diving behind the biggest stump you can find in a hurry. I got some nice bruises from doing just that. 

My favorite was an interruption during a discussion on the landing. It is "Droopy's runnin'. We ought to be runnin." Droopy was the chaser and the rigging crew had a tree they were cutting go backwards onto the lines. Nothing broke, but the noise was interesting.


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## Gologit (Aug 9, 2020)

D-E-A-R......Drop Everything And Run.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 9, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> Id do it if I wanted to pinch the bar every time I did the face cut



It is pretty much* IMPOSSIBLE* for any body to get a bar caught or pinched in a face cut. Even a dumb A$$ like you probably could not do it, but I am sure you would try. Go ahead and see if it can be done. Thanks


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## Bwildered (Aug 14, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> It is pretty much* IMPOSSIBLE* for any body to get a bar caught or pinched in a face cut. Even a dumb A$$ like you probably could not do it, but I am sure you would try. Go ahead and see if it can be done. Thanks



I wouldn't do it , it's a recipe for disaster, the only time you use that type of method is on small trees & you use an axe on the face, because there is compression on that side & it will pinch the bar every time, go and look long and hard and see if you can find a professional that does it that way, you won't, it's a backyard firewood hacks way.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 14, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> I wouldn't do it , it's a recipe for disaster, the only time you use that type of method is on small trees & you use an axe on the face, because there is compression on that side & it will pinch the bar every time, go and look long and hard and see if you can find a professional that does it that way, you won't, it's a backyard firewood hacks way.



Even a dumb *A$$* would know the compression is opposite the face cut thus the wedges. Thanks


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## Bwildered (Aug 15, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Even a dumb *A$$* would know the compression is opposite the face cut thus the wedges. Thanks


WTF! Really ? You have absolutely NFI what you're on about. The wedges are artificially bending what's left of the tree, midway between what's cut & the other side of the stump is a point where there is tension wood, & on the other side is compression wood, and that's the side you are wanting to cut last. That's why an axe is used, it is not prone to getting predictably pinched like a bar of a chainsaw would be when the cut closed up. Does someone have to draw a diagram for you?


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## northmanlogging (Aug 15, 2020)

hmm... the ignore function isn't as good as it used to be

a leaning tree can and will pinch a bar in the face cut, or if you face it way to deep it will pinch then too. 

Using an axe on small trees isn't a terrible idea, though you really don't need much of a face for trees that small, and in all honesty if you're falling with the lean, you don't need much face anyways

So no even a Dumb Ass knows that compression wood is dependant on lean, but this changes as the tree falls, to where the compression wood is on the faced side (unless **** goes sideways... then well... run) Wedges insure the compression wood is on the face cut side. We're talking about hinge wood here, not where the wedges make contact, which is technically compression wood, but not part of the hinge wood so therefore a different subject, its like calling the wall next to a door part of the latch mechanism.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 15, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> WTF! Really ? You have absolutely NFI what you're on about. The wedges are artificially bending what's left of the tree, midway between what's cut & the other side of the stump is a point where there is tension wood, & on the other side is compression wood, and that's the side you are wanting to cut last. That's why an axe is used, it is not prone to getting predictably pinched like a bar of a chainsaw would be when the cut closed up. Does someone have to draw a diagram for you?




I drew you a diagram and you still can not figure it out, go figure. Thanks


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## Bwildered (Aug 16, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I drew you a diagram and you still can not figure it out, go figure. Thanks


Yeah right, pity you can't understand the silliness of it! You're falling a tree doing the cuts in reverse order, I'd be a absolute numbskull if I thought it wasn't going to pinch the bar every time if I did it, what's your excuse?


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## Joe Kuhn (Aug 16, 2020)

@Ted Jenkins , do you really do your cuts in the order shown in your diagram? I thought perhaps your diagram was mistaken. I'm a rookie at this and your diagram is misleading according to what I've seen on YouTube as in:



I'm studying the Terry Hale videos now...


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## Philbert (Aug 16, 2020)

What Ted posted is for felling against the natural lean. There are many different methods described for felling trees; some apply to specific situations, where a conventional cut, for felling a perfect, ‘telephone pole’ style tree, do not work so well. 

Philbert


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## Joe Kuhn (Aug 16, 2020)

Philbert said:


> What Ted posted is for felling against the natural lean. There are many different methods described for felling trees; some apply to specific situations, where a conventional cut, for felling a perfect, ‘telephone pole’ style tree, do not work so well.
> 
> Philbert


I see. I'm skipping ahead in Terry Hale's series to see what he says about back leaners.



He says there are basically 3 ways to handle a back leaner:

1. Take it apart piece by piece with a lot of special equipment.
2. Use a bucket truck or a crane.
3. Pull the tree to vertical, then past vertical...

He looks at #3 with a man and then a pickup pulling the tree to vertical, then past for the fall. The forces involved are large which he explains with a lot of math. Not sure of his recommendation here, but then I'm going to call a professional in this case.

Terry then discusses the direction of the fall on a back leaner in his second video. His main discussion here involves rigging lines. He has some very helpful drawings here. At the end he says there's shear danger on the hinge and suggests the hinge cutting be reversed effectively turning up upside down, like this, with the direction of intended fall to the right (back lean to the left).




The straight cut is below the notch as shown above. He does not discuss what side to cut first nor does he ever mention wedges as Ted does.

To the contrary, it seems to me Ted is talking about very slight back leaners. Would like to see a real life example from Ted. I'm even more skeptical about Ted's suggestions now.

I'm scared by all this, but am ok with my fear. I feel it is a healthy fear that will drive me to hire a professional when there is a back lean involved. However, I'm really enjoying the learning and look forward to my next opportunity to fell a tree safely.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 16, 2020)

Joe Kuhn said:


> @Ted Jenkins , do you really do your cuts in the order shown in your diagram? I thought perhaps your diagram was mistaken. I'm a rookie at this and your diagram is misleading according to what I've seen on YouTube as in:  I'm studying the Terry Hale videos now...





Wow am surprised that more people have no experience at larger trees. The charts are accurate and exact in sequence. Here we have thousands of soft wood trees near houses and out buildings. I would get many upon many calls calls to remove trees leaning towards some thing. I know several guys that just call the crane service if a tree is leaning wrong. This operation can add up to months to schedule all parties for removal which also adds several thousands of dollars to cost. Then depending on time of year it is it can also bring about a dangerous situation. So when the tree is with in reason it can be safely removed with just wedges. On some trees the top can be chunked down then the rest fallen where it needs to go. I prefer to leave as much of the tree intact until I can determinine that a tree is going to behave as planned thus cutting the face cut last. The face cut side of the tree has zero weight on it because the tree is leaning away from that side of tree. I also do not want to be generous with the hinge or holding wood. I like to leave plenty of wood there so as to have plenty of control until the very last moment as I can to see that it is going to go as planned. I also prepare with a back up device like a cross bow to shoot a line over the treee to attach a tag line or two or three. The back cut is also pretty safe to cut with out pinching bar because the OP is only going to cut about about 25% of tree before sticking wedges behind the bar. At that moment where as the wedges can not be driven into the tree enough to allow the OP to continue cutting then alternate methods need to be used. There is a method to the sequence that is important. Thanks
h


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## catbuster (Aug 16, 2020)

Joe Kuhn said:


> I see. I'm skipping ahead in Terry Hale's series to see what he says about back leaners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Watch the Guilty of Treeson video to the end. The last tree they fall, Jed discusses back leaners with the back cut first. It works okay. The principle is to get the tree vertical without compromising the wood that’s pulling against the lean. Cutting the back allows you to wedge the tree to near vertical and then make your face while the face side isn’t the compression side. Your bar will not be pinched by getting the tree to near vertical. Once the face is in, you bang your wedges until the tree goes over.

The bar won’t get pinched making the face with the back cut first and then wedging it. However, this only applies to back leaning trees. It is not a good technique to use on anything else. That technique will also only work on trees that can be brought vertical with wedges or a tree jack. I would not use this around any targets. Otherwise, you need a rigging line attached to something solid, or a big piece of gear to push it over. I think August Hunicke put out a video of his crew pulling over a big oak tree not all that long ago.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 16, 2020)

Joe Kuhn said:


> I see. I'm skipping ahead in Terry Hale's series to see what he says about back leaners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Terry's description using a person or vehicle I find ridiculous because of experience this is not a great plan. I had a tree some fifty years ago that needed a nudge. so I hook up a line ( about 20,000 lb. ) to my Bronco and gave it a pull as nothing happened so I give a little more gas and yes the tree finally moved. However in the process the tree fell and twisted lifting the Bronco about a foot off the ground. It was a great wake up call not to do that again.I went over my notes to see what went wrong well pretty much every thing. So ever since I go over my notes often twice. I keep on hand about ten operational come a longs with a snatch block pully on each one. Mostly I use 4,000 lb. types. Recently I posted an ordeal here where I had a dangerous Oak tree to be pulled up hill or away from the direction it was leaning. I shot three lines about seventy feet up. Each line had 20,000 lb test or more. It took three days to properly prepare the lines and rigging before I started a saw. While all this was going on the owner his wife and a couple of friends set out lawn chairs on the edge of their drive way drinking beer. I set up five come alongs and pulled them tight. The tree maybe moved a half of a degree so I set up two more. With seven of them tight the tree started to sway so cut a face cut and then started the back cut. After the back cut was about 16'' in it started to make noice. So I tightened all the come alongs and yes it with nearly 30,000 lbs of force fell into many pieces where it was planned. So some times brute force is needed, but practice is essential. Thanks


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## northmanlogging (Aug 16, 2020)

Joe Kuhn said:


> I see. I'm skipping ahead in Terry Hale's series to see what he says about back leaners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the reversed back cut is solid advice, I regularly pull or push trees over with an excavator, they can sheer off if the back cut is flush or higher then the face, which is nominally what you would want, but if your going to be pushing it, it could sever that wood, and have the tree flop over on top of the machine... which is bad em kay

for most slight back leaners is overkill, but I like insurance lol, the other option catbuster mentions is to back cut first and hammer in a couple wedges, then make your face cut and pound it over. depending on the lean you can put enough pressure on the wedges to pinch the bar, but you would need a massive sledge hammer on most trees lol, really just getting the wedges snugged up before creating the face is all that is necessary, then finish em once the tree is weakened and aimed


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## Bwildered (Aug 16, 2020)

Joe Kuhn said:


> @Ted Jenkins , do you really do your cuts in the order shown in your diagram? I thought perhaps your diagram was mistaken. I'm a rookie at this and your diagram is misleading according to what I've seen on YouTube as in:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm studying the Terry Hale videos now...



There's actually only three ways to fall a tree, the right way, the wrong way & the bosses way.


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## Bwildered (Aug 16, 2020)

Joe Kuhn said:


> @Ted Jenkins , do you really do your cuts in the order shown in your diagram? I thought perhaps your diagram was mistaken. I'm a rookie at this and your diagram is misleading according to what I've seen on YouTube as in:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm studying the Terry Hale videos now...





catbuster said:


> Watch the Guilty of Treeson video to the end. The last tree they fall, Jed discusses back leaners with the back cut first. It works okay. The principle is to get the tree vertical without compromising the wood that’s pulling against the lean. Cutting the back allows you to wedge the tree to near vertical and then make your face while the face side isn’t the compression side. Your bar will not be pinched by getting the tree to near vertical. Once the face is in, you bang your wedges until the tree goes over.
> 
> The bar won’t get pinched making the face with the back cut first and then wedging it. However, this only applies to back leaning trees. It is not a good technique to use on anything else. That technique will also only work on trees that can be brought vertical with wedges or a tree jack. I would not use this around any targets. Otherwise, you need a rigging line attached to something solid, or a big piece of gear to push it over. I think August Hunicke put out a video of his crew pulling over a big oak tree not all that long ago.



With teds method he explains how he moves the tree with the wedges & opens up the back cut, in the video the guy doesn't do that, the tree is held in exactly the same lean with the wedges holding the tree in position , when he does the scarf cut there is no compression wood on that side, with teds method there is because the compression has been transferred to that side by the trees lean moving in the direction of the intended fall, also when ever pushing from behind or pulling by an external force the back cut has to be lower than the scarf to stop the butt if the tree being pushed or pulled off the stump & it going back the wrong way, possibly over the cab of a machine, the guys in the video had the backcut higher & pushed over the tree with the machine, which isn't the safest practice


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## Joe Kuhn (Aug 17, 2020)

catbuster said:


> Watch the Guilty of Treeson video to the end. The last tree they fall, Jed discusses back leaners with the back cut first. It works okay. The principle is to get the tree vertical without compromising the wood that’s pulling against the lean. Cutting the back allows you to wedge the tree to near vertical and then make your face while the face side isn’t the compression side. Your bar will not be pinched by getting the tree to near vertical. Once the face is in, you bang your wedges until the tree goes over.
> 
> The bar won’t get pinched making the face with the back cut first and then wedging it. However, this only applies to back leaning trees. It is not a good technique to use on anything else. That technique will also only work on trees that can be brought vertical with wedges or a tree jack. I would not use this around any targets. Otherwise, you need a rigging line attached to something solid, or a big piece of gear to push it over. I think August Hunicke put out a video of his crew pulling over a big oak tree not all that long ago.


Looks like I've got some studying up to do. Those guys have a lot of videos on YouTube. Did you have a specific one in mind?


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Aug 17, 2020)

Back cut first is a completely legitimate way to fall a tree, however it's a highly advanced technique and is only necessary in very specific situations. 

When done correctly you will NOT pinch your bar in the undercut because there is not significant compression on the undercut side of the tree. When used on an appropriate tree for this technique the face cut would be in wood under significant tension. The idea of this technique is to reduce or eliminate the tension therefore allowing a face cut to be placed in neutral or slightly compressed wood. Definitely not compressed enough to cause bar pinching. If you are able to put that much compression into the face cut side of the tree before making the face cut, you didn't need to use this technique in the first place. 

Also, if you get your bar pinched in the under cut of ANY (non-compromised/rotted/etc) tree, you simply cut too far. If a tree is putting heavy compression on the side of the under cut, there is no need for a big undercut. If the compression is on the face cut side, physics says the tree will go the way you want it to already. Small face cut is all that's necessary and if it's a significant lean, you need a small face cut to insure you have enough wood to bore the back cut to avoid a barber chair.


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Aug 17, 2020)

As far as a perfectly balanced tree situation.

Place wedges on evenly balanced trees. Why? Because sometimes there's more weight in certain limbs than you think and WIND! Wind is unpredictable.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 17, 2020)

Every area country and county has a different set of challenges. Some aspects of trees do not change however. In the area I currently live there are many residential neighborhoods where as the houses are surrounded by soft wood trees. Pine White Fir Cedar. The tree roots crack near by improvements, become sickly, insect infestation etc. The property owners wants the tree gone or utility companies ask owner to remove. Some times utility companies send in their own crew. Most properties are on a hill side from mild to barely able to walk steep. Thus most yard areas or surrounding area around a home is unaccessible by tractor or pickup. The crane service here stays very well scheduled aiding tree workers removing or other such needs. So this environment of unwanted trees can be a challenge. Property owner does not care how just get the thing gone. Most trees get the top thirty to forty feet whacked then remainder of the tree needs to come down. The fastest easiest and cheapest way for a tree that is leaning where it does not need to go is wedge or jack the tree into submission. Some times tag lines are needed if the lean of the tree is severe enough. When fall time comes an owner will ask for a Arbor related person to come and check on their tree only to find they will have to wait up to six months as few will commit to winter work. Then people who understand the removal process become a desired extreme premium. The safest way that I have seen heard of or experienced is to leave the maximum amount of tree intact until the OP can see that the tree is going where it is desired.
When after careful evaluation a leaning tree can be safely be removed. From watching experimenting with great success leads me to believe my MO is the best there is period as I have watched many others attempt with out perfect success. I did have an opportunity watching a contractor after pleading with the crew to listen up as what they were doing was unsafe. About an hour later the utility company arrived with LE so participates could spend the night in jail. BTW I did not mention was evaluation of the trunk area where the cutting is to take place. If there is decay or suspected rot then these things must be taken into consideration. It is a very happy moment when after considerable time and effort the thing falls with in a foot or two of where it needs to go. Thanks


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## Jhenderson (Aug 17, 2020)

In jail? Really? For what? This aught to be good!


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 17, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> In jail? Really? For what? This aught to be good!



I could give a lot of details, but the answer is they knocked down a 6,000 volt power line apparently they were already warned about. The power company did not receive it well along with a thousand home owners with out power. Thanks


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## northmanlogging (Aug 18, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I could give a lot of details, but the answer is they knocked down a 6,000 volt power line apparently they were already warned about. The power company did not receive it well along with a thousand home owners with out power. Thanks


Dig up stoopid. 

hitting a power line is bad yes, but not exactly criminal, expensive and more then likely the end of your business, but not a jailable offence. 

I have to wonder about most of your posts, if they are not completely shite, they are sprinkled with enough plausibility to make noobs think you might actually know what your talking about, and that is dangerous. 

there is a reason you are on my ignore list, but there is also a reason I feel it necessary to comment on your lack of understanding or perhaps outright lies from time to time. believe it or not my ignore list is quite short. But its full of liars, cons, and unrepentant trolls


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## Jhenderson (Aug 18, 2020)

I thought he might take the hint and slink away quietly but oh no, time to double down on the B.S. Not to mention using using implausible voltage . If you’re going to tell a whopper you should at least get the proper associated facts and figures to back it up.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 18, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Dig up stoopid.
> 
> hitting a power line is bad yes, but not exactly criminal, expensive and more then likely the end of your business, but not a jailable offence.
> 
> ...



I would have that IGNORE button checked it maybe has some flaws. Thanks


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 18, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> I thought he might take the hint and slink away quietly but oh no, time to double down on the B.S. Not to mention using using implausible voltage . If you’re going to tell a whopper you should at least get the proper associated facts and figures to back it up.



And no I am not going to dig up the records for you, but you still do not know how to take down good trees. Thanks


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## woodfarmer (Aug 18, 2020)

What I don’t understand Ted is the OP asked about 1/3 face cut and you went off on a tangent about back leaners? If you wanted to discuss that in full detail, then start your own thread.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 18, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> What I don’t understand Ted is the OP asked about 1/3 face cut and you went off on a tangent about back leaners? If you wanted to discuss that in full detail, then start your own thread.



I apologize about if I derailed ratios of how to fall trees. The post started trees that need to be dropped and why not just face cut and then back cut and let them go. Geometry always plays a roll as even perfectly level trees need guidance. Thanks


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## Jhenderson (Aug 18, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> And no I am not going to dig up the records for you, but you still do not know how to take down good trees. Thanks



Well, what a surprise! Get caught Tell a whopper and go on the attack to divert attention from your transgressions. How novel.


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## catbuster (Aug 18, 2020)

Man, I feel bad for the OP and the guy asking about falling trees. There’s a lot of knowledge to be gained here that’s undercut by a few people. Oh well.

I actually used the low back cut pushing a tree over with an excavator today. Haven’t really used it much before but I can confirm that it works and it’s way easier than going back to the shop to get a throw line and then either a winch Cat or a whole bunch of cable, and then rig the junk with clevises and the like.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 19, 2020)

catbuster said:


> Man, I feel bad for the OP and the guy asking about falling trees. There’s a lot of knowledge to be gained here that’s undercut by a few people. Oh well.
> 
> I actually used the low back cut pushing a tree over with an excavator today. Haven’t really used it much before but I can confirm that it works and it’s way easier than going back to the shop to get a throw line and then either a winch Cat or a whole bunch of cable, and then rig the junk with clevises and the like.


1-2 hours of dragging string vs track over stab bucket in, saw er up shove er over lol, 10-20 ,minutes travel times will vary lol


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## RandyMac (Aug 19, 2020)

Sorry to leave you doing all the work Matt, but I've learned to stay out of discussions like this.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 19, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> 1-2 hours of dragging string vs track over stab bucket in, saw er up shove er over lol, 10-20 ,minutes travel times will vary lol



That would be the difference between someone paid by the bushel and someone paid by the hour.


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## RandyMac (Aug 19, 2020)

I'm waiting for the advocate of ratchet straps to show up.


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## Gologit (Aug 19, 2020)

RandyMac said:


> Sorry to leave you doing all the work Matt, but I've learned to stay out of discussions like this.



This place doesn't change much, does it?


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## rwoods (Aug 19, 2020)

Now there are two voices I wish we heard more often. I believe I understand why we don’t.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Aug 19, 2020)

RandyMac said:


> Sorry to leave you doing all the work Matt, but I've learned to stay out of discussions like this.


Well I certainly haven't lol


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## RandyMac (Aug 19, 2020)

Matt, you are a contemporary, we will leave it to you, carry on.
Bob! I'm signing up to work with the Etna Police, they have a bright young sprout named Whitchurch, ring any bells?
Howdy Ron. 
It is hard to guess who wants to learn and will listen. Then we have ''experts'' those who got away with a few things and are loud about it, just a matter of time before they get squashed like a bug.
Any thread with befuddled and philbert can be amusing.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 19, 2020)

RandyMac said:


> Matt, you are a contemporary, we will leave it to you, carry on.
> Bob! I'm signing up to work with the Etna Police, they have a bright young sprout named Whitchurch, ring any bells?
> Howdy Ron.
> It is hard to guess who wants to learn and will listen. Then we have ''experts'' those who got away with a few things and are loud about it, just a matter of time before they get squashed like a bug.
> Any thread with befuddled and philbert can be amusing.


not sure muh feets are big enough...


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## Philbert (Aug 19, 2020)

RandyMac said:


> Any thread with befuddled and philbert can be amusing.



If that’s what it takes to draw you out . . . 

Philbert


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## RandyMac (Aug 20, 2020)

Philbert said:


> If that’s what it takes to draw you out . . .
> 
> Philbert


good evening Mr Belt and Suspenders


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## TBS (Aug 20, 2020)

Causing damage to a power line or failure to maintain it falls under 591 PC in California. PG&E faced all kinds of litigation because of that.


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## rwoods (Aug 20, 2020)

RandyMac said:


> ...
> It is hard to guess who wants to learn and will listen. ... .



Hope all is well.

I struggle with the issue I quoted. Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are simply overly lubricated at the time, or as Bob pointed out years back, some that are only seeking validation of what they have done or are going to do despite any advice they pretend to seek. Pretty discouraging trend when you want to learn or want to help someone. Right now I have a question about falling dead ash, which in the past I would have asked without hesitation but of late not so sure.

Going to go sit on a stump and watch for a while.

Ron


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## Philbert (Aug 20, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are . . . only seeking validation of what they have done . . .


Some guys have a lot of experience, but don't express themselves well in these forums. Some guys also have experience with certain types of cutting, and can't understand how that does not apply to other situations. There are guys here whose comments I instinctively trust, and those I ignore. Guys who I don't necessarily agree with, but would cut with, given the opportunity, just to see what I could learn, or to understand them better.

Philbert


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Hope all is well.
> 
> I struggle with the issue I quoted. Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are simply overly lubricated at the time, or as Bob pointed out years back, some that are only seeking validation of what they have done or are going to do despite any advice they pretend to seek. Pretty discouraging trend when you want to learn or want to help someone. Right now I have a question about falling dead ash, which in the past I would have asked without hesitation but of late not so sure.
> 
> ...



Stump sitting can be very therapeutic. There's still a few good people on here, they're just hard to find sometimes.
And, to go completely against the established procedure here, I can't answer your ash question 'cause I wouldn't know an ash tree if it ran up and bit me on the ankle. In other words, I don't know and I won't guess. There's enough guessing already.
Go with your gut. You're better at this than you think you are.


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## slowp (Aug 20, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Hope all is well.
> 
> I struggle with the issue I quoted. Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are simply overly lubricated at the time, or as Bob pointed out years back, some that are only seeking validation of what they have done or are going to do despite any advice they pretend to seek. Pretty discouraging trend when you want to learn or want to help someone. Right now I have a question about falling dead ash, which in the past I would have asked without hesitation but of late not so sure.
> 
> ...



We have falling ash and smoke--(humor time). I'm going on a bike ride.

Just to note that I have had the cut the back cut first suggested and demonstrated. It was for our small, not leaning maples which, in the words of a logger, "like to sat back." He described it much better than a chart. It works if you are an experienced, professional, production cutter and ready to run like hell. Only one wedge was used. I tried it later on a small tree and was very scared while doing so. The tree "went where it was supposed to go." as we hear all the time on here, but I am not a faller and realized that was probably luck. That was too hard on the nerves. I didn't like it at all. 

Now I really am going on a bike ride into the smoke, and falling ash. Much better than the scary task of falling trees. Hope the wind changes here.


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## rwoods (Aug 20, 2020)

Gologit,

Hope you are well as well. I appreciate the compliment. Only a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the felling I do is even close to a personal necessity - in other words I can leave almost any tree for someone else or nature to take down. But I do like to help folks and I enjoy the challenges posed by falling. Until recently, I too wouldn't know an ash if it bit me. Locally we are now awash in dead and dying ash with many folks without the resources to hire someone. Typically I can put them on the ground, but with only a 100 or so ashes under my belt I don't know enough of their characteristics to comfortably attempt to lay a big dead one down gently, if this is even possible, to avoid destroying a driveway or a yard for example. Guess I need to cut a few in the fields and see if I can slow the fall and learn to better judge the brittleness.

Slowp,

Seems you are enjoying your retirement. I always enjoy your posts of your experiences and current activities.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Aug 20, 2020)

Think I've "talked to an ash" tree before... but only cause I didn't think the neighbors needed to see what I was doing to their rose bushes

we get mountain ash around here, but its more of a bush then a tree.


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## Philbert (Aug 20, 2020)

slowp said:


> It was for our small, not leaning maples which, in the words of a logger, "like to sat back."


I was helping a friend thin a bunch of dead / dying balsam in Northern Minnesota a few weeks ago for fire danger. A lot of these were too small to get a wedge in with a conventional back cut. He had a 12 - 14' pole with an iron spike on the end that we used to push the trees over, even if they sat back a little. Worked good for these trees; obviously, not for every situation. 

Philbert


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## rwoods (Aug 20, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Some guys have a lot of experience, but don't express themselves well in these forums. Some guys also have experience with certain types of cutting, and can't understand how that does not apply to other situations. There are guys here whose comments I instinctively trust, and those I ignore. Guys who I don't necessarily agree with, but would cut with, given the opportunity, just to see what I could learn, or to understand them better.
> 
> Philbert


 
If I believe someone knows his or her business I will watch and listen - doesn't matter his political views, beliefs, color of his saw, oil ratio, or if I even like him. In the last 10 years it seems our AS community has more and more put the latter before the former resulting in sound knowledge and wisdom being drowned out or withheld.

Sorry, I forgot I intended to sit on the stump.

Ron


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 20, 2020)

Hopefully I laid out a chart that is easy to understand and grasp for trees leaning opposite the way of intended fall. For trees leaning near to the direction of intended fall a different approach is needed. Or one could say put my charts in reverse. For high risk jobs there is no substitute for practice or experience. The question concerning 33% of the cut as to the relation of the face cut is variable. Most people that are experienced in the Arbor industry eyeball a 30% cut because that is most often what is needed. If one would cut 50% of a tree trunk it would be considered excessive because the risk factor increases dramatically. If a tag line is needed or wedges then the tree is very vulnerable to many other forces. Or the tree is less safe because there is less holding wood for control. I thought this was obvious, but maybe not or a good rule of thumb is for a face cut to be about 30% which is a compromise for safety and control. Thanks


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## woodfarmer (Aug 22, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Hope all is well.
> 
> I struggle with the issue I quoted. Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are simply overly lubricated at the time, or as Bob pointed out years back, some that are only seeking validation of what they have done or are going to do despite any advice they pretend to seek. Pretty discouraging trend when you want to learn or want to help someone. Right now I have a question about falling dead ash, which in the past I would have asked without hesitation but of late not so sure.
> 
> ...


Common, ask away. I love discussing Ash


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## rwoods (Aug 22, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> Common, ask away. I love discussing Ash



Alright, I have little experience with ash and though likely I have cut some green ones over the years without recognizing it. Now that they are dying, I can easily recognize them and in the last two seasons have cut around 100 dead or dying ones. Most have been in clusters along creeks with the only falling challenges being fences and creeks. The dead ones seem to be real brittle. Here in town, I am presented with buildings, driveways, nice lawns and other high dollar targets. Lately I have been contemplating falling a particular 2 to 2 1/2 foot dead for a year ash, but it will fall on an asphalt driveway and a nice lawn both of which will be damaged in a typical wham bam fall. I was pondering whether a long block face and a thick hinge (with possibly a backside vertical cut to encourage flexing) would allow a slow controlled fall, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.

Ron


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## Oliver Durand (Aug 22, 2020)

[, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.

Ron
[/QUOTE]
It doesn't have much strength, and it may pop and go where it darn well pleases. The Foresters use the word "brashy" to describe it. BE CAREFUL!!!!


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## rwoods (Aug 22, 2020)

I am not too concerned with the direction on this one just the speed of the fall as I am trying to minimize both impact damage and inflight breakage of the top and/or limbs. Any thoughts on how to achieve a slow fall, if even possible? I don't climb; even if I did, I wouldn't climb a dead ash for love or money.

Not to worry, if there is no reasonable chance of slowing the fall, I will walk away and leave it to nature or someone else though it bugs me that it is daily getting more dangerous to the unsuspecting.

Ron


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## woodfarmer (Aug 23, 2020)

Buy some sheets of 3/4 plywood to put down and drop it


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## Spottedgum (Aug 23, 2020)

The recipe for 1/3 cut is a good start point for beginners, but here in Australia, you approach every tree differently based on lean, wind, branch weighting, tree species and condition (live, dead, dry rot, termite, hollows, lightning scars)

While acacias, turpentine and spotted gum will hinge really well with a 5% hinge, salmon, brittle and scribbly gums can go "bang" with >50% hinge. 

Dry rot and termite in the heart mean you might be dealing with just a 2 inch shell surrounding 12 - 18 inches of sloppy mud/pulp. (bloodwoods, blackbutt)

Sometimes the lean is 90 deg to the side of the fall direction, so you bias the hinge to be thicker on the tension side or it will crack and fall sideways.

Sometimes I'll "long hinge" a fall by rip cutting a a fall plank with a fall face up to 12 inches high and multiple fall cuts at the back (usually with a winch fall line)
When the fall direction is against the natural fall of the tree, and damage will result if it goes wrong, a winch line (and axis tether if needed ) and a thicker hinge is worth using a rope pole or doing scamper 5m up to attach a rigging point. 
I've safely felled uprooted trees overhanging houses against 30deg leans and 30 knott winds. Proper long hinge technique is important as well as winch and tether lines. If you're asking a tree trunk to hinge back 30 deg to straight, and a further 10 deg to fall, it will snap without long hinging or multiple narrow fall wedge hinging. 
Sometimes cutting a 60% face wedge can shift the centre of balance toward the side you want - but you want to be sure you know how tensile and flexible the species of timber is, and have enough room to wedge the fall cut behind your saw as you cut so it doesn't backfall.

Always watch the gap in your cut - face or fall, because a tree can have spiral grain, or grain tension, that will close up the gap as the saw cut changes the balance of tension in the trunk. Your saw cut gap will visibly change before the saw binds - and also tell you which way the tree wants to move.

You will feel, smell and hear when you are cutting dry rot, wet rot or termite. Stop and re-assess the fall.


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## sean donato (Aug 23, 2020)

rwoods said:


> I am not too concerned with the direction on this one just the speed of the fall as I am trying to minimize both impact damage and inflight breakage of the top and/or limbs. Any thoughts on how to achieve a slow fall, if even possible? I don't climb; even if I did, I wouldn't climb a dead ash for love or money.
> 
> Not to worry, if there is no reasonable chance of slowing the fall, I will walk away and leave it to nature or someone else though it bugs me that it is daily getting more dangerous to the unsuspecting.
> 
> Ron


We had the ash beetles come through a few years back, had a lot of ash come down past few years. I cant say I've had any the let down slow that were dead. I wont even touch an ash if it's near something that could get damaged. I leave it to the guys with the equipment to handle it properly.


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## Spottedgum (Aug 23, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Alright, I have little experience with ash and though likely I have cut some green ones over the years without recognizing it. Now that they are dying, I can easily recognize them and in the last two seasons have cut around 100 dead or dying ones. Most have been in clusters along creeks with the only falling challenges being fences and creeks. The dead ones seem to be real brittle. Here in town, I am presented with buildings, driveways, nice lawns and other high dollar targets. Lately I have been contemplating falling a particular 2 to 2 1/2 foot dead for a year ash, but it will fall on an asphalt driveway and a nice lawn both of which will be damaged in a typical wham bam fall. I was pondering whether a long block face and a thick hinge (with possibly a backside vertical cut to encourage flexing) would allow a slow controlled fall, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.
> 
> Ron


The long hinge sounds like a good idea if it's going to "pop".
Not familiar with ash, but similar situations over concrete. Normally I would top lop the tree and cover driveway with branches from the top lop. On Eucalypts the branches leave the trunk at under 45deg from vertical, so when these fall on the layer of branches across the concrete they act as a crosswork cushion. 
With brittle limbs it's best to remove all limbs as close to the trunk as possible before felling, and keep the branch "mat" on the concrete as thick as possible. Otherwise when the trunk hits the ground the branches snap off away from the trunk and the jagged stubs hit the concrete at full force through the branch "mat"


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## rwoods (Aug 23, 2020)

Thanks for all of the ash falling comments. This is charity work, I will probably just pass unless the PO wants to give a waiver of liability. Ron


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## Woodanhor (Aug 23, 2020)

Oliver Durand said:


> [, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.
> 
> Ron


It doesn't have much strength, and it may pop and go where it darn well pleases. The Foresters use the word "brashy" to describe it. BE CAREFUL!!!!
[/QUOTE]


rwoods said:


> Thanks for all of the ash falling comments. This is charity work, I will probably just pass unless the PO wants to give a waiver of liability. Ron


Im not a feller but the ash borer has been here at least 10 years
As time gos on the standing dead trees become more brittle and in a slight wind the top branches start falling off which draws the property owners attention at that point the tree is a giant widow maker waiting to happen

They also are prone to hollow trunks

My friend took a hazardous ash down that the first 20 feet were hollow it was not reachable with a bucket

My friend that climbs said they are not climbing any ash anymore its too risky

Anybody cutting ash should be careful of falling branches and barber chairs


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## Westboastfaller (Aug 23, 2020)

Philbert said:


> What about Canada? Do they use metric fractions? Anybody from WorkSafeBC in this thread?
> 
> Philbert


Haha.."metric fractions"
Worksafe is basically the government insurance company. All their standards are under OHS regulations part 26. They are the minimum standards. 
We always have to adhere to the highest standard.

Undercut really goes on percentage. 
They want them between 28 - 43%
OR, 23 - 28% on a wedge tree for an acceptable standard. 
In gas & oil industry they will measure stump Dia and calculate U/C percentage then measure the removed material to make sure the opening is adequate for the cut used.
Swanson, Birbsmouth & Conventional are all 1:1 ratio opening & Humboldt is .5:1 (6/12 pitch) btw, the Humboldt opening given is not nearly enough on certain hardwood species outside BC. such as Ash. The cuts will close and barber chair
They want to see 3 good stumps out of every 4 but don't want to see consistent issues.
Now production falling on the west coast nobody is going to fail stumps that are cut up to 45%- 50% consistently as you may see with side hill lays with softwood. I personally don't cut like that intentionally to get them to go. The odd few end up sky bound on the hinge where I can't cut them up anymore or I end up nipping the far corner off (fail) getting it to go at times. Generally am not setting wedges but pic the slight lean correctly. More time would be spent cutting larger undercuts and chasing fuel, imo. Just different styles.
If it's down hill Falling then trees will generally go down hill without problems.
They say you can go up to 50% on the broken off stubbies but that doesn't work. You really need get well Passed the COG
Generally large cedar that are 6-7ft in Dia & are snapped off at 10-20ft. I go about 80% and they topple easy.


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## catbuster (Aug 23, 2020)

Ron,

I know it’s been a minute since you asked, but for a period of 2014-2017 I took down near all Ash trees on a just over 1000 acre property the EAB had absolutely decimated.

Some things I found:
-Crowns break out, eyes must be kept up and it’s necessary to know how to get away in a hurry.
-Ash is brittle.
-Dead Ash is even worse.
-Ash likes to chair.
-Dead Ash likes to chair even more.
-Boring may be boring, but man oh man is it useful with these trees.
-Even dead Ash is heavy. Really heavy.
-Dead Ash does not respond well to being pulled or pushed. See above comments about being brittle and tops breaking out.
-Let an arborist service with climbers and a crane handle them close to buildings.

Those are a few of the things I remember. At a few hundred you may have more total than I do, but I hope this helps in some form or another.


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## rwoods (Aug 24, 2020)

catbuster, 

Right at a 100 +/-, but most were dying not dead from a prior season. I have cut only a few dead ones. All I have cut were certainly approached with the dangers in mind you described. Tops and limbs behaved exactly as you described in both the dying and the dead. I haven't broken a hinge prematurely (yet); I use a Coo's Bay or bore any with pronounced lean or limb load to avoid chairing. Typically I don't have to steer them much. But I am particularly skar'd of dead ash in general thus my questions about hinge strength, and my comments about climbing. 

On the few dead ones I let gravity take care of the fall. I have wedged a few dying ones and pulled maybe two (I can only remember one), but I am not going to pound any dying or dead ash over unless there is no canopy to hit (as you know their tops will snap and fall back towards you) and the tree's overhead is clear for pounding (including enough lean that a broken top or limb will fall away from me). I am not going to pull one unless the limbless portion of the main trunk appears stout and high enough to provide sufficient leverage with a line (and then only if I believe I can cut it to stay standing on the hinge without line tension so hopefully before the line is under tension I can get far enough away for any contingency). The particular ash I had in mind needs neither wedges nor a line to fall in the intended direction, but due to its size and weight its impact can do some serious pavement damage. I am going to pass.

Ron


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## woodfarmer (Aug 25, 2020)

A few pictures of the Ash. I was taken to task for my almost none existent hinges last winter by a couple members, can’t remember who, regardless, I don’t know how much experience they had with Ash.
I am on the throttle chasing the hinge as the tree is going over. I have felled hundreds and haven’t had one chair, maybe I’m lucky idk. That’s just what has worked for me


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## woodfarmer (Aug 25, 2020)

A few more from last winter


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## Huskybill (Aug 25, 2020)

I’ve done some really scary chit when dropping trees with no wedges. About 99.99% the trees lean to get the most sun light.

One straight tree was surrounded by pines. I got hung almost straight up. I was knocking 4’ sections like Popeye. Then the upper large limb showed up. I backed up, shut off the saw as the y centered my body. Lucky me.

My dealer gave me instructions on how to fell trees and steer them.

I had tall skinny trees to cut on a hill. I needed to drop some up hill. I waited for a windy day. As the trees bent up hill from the wind I back cut them.

Cutting frozen trees, felling them, after the back cut and they didn’t move I put the saw down and push them with my body. I felled 12” oaks with human power.

I was really good at felling trees but old age is settling in.


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 7, 2020)

Gologit said:


> This place doesn't change much, does it?



Nope. 




Gologit said:


> Stump sitting can be very therapeutic. There's still a few good people on here, they're just hard to find sometimes.



Yea, sitting by on a stump is therapeutic and entertaining. Some of the good ones aren’t so hard to find. You, Randy, slowP, Northman and some others, pretty easy to find when someone wants too.



Owl


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 7, 2020)

Technically a face cord could be any figure really. It's often figured at 16" length, which makes it 1/3 of a cord, but it's not a standardized measurement.


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## slowp (Oct 10, 2020)

Spotted Owl said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why thank you. I don't sit much on stumps cuz they either have a big wad of fresh pitch or are old and have ants and bees and splinters. (damn cutters didn't cut off the stump pull jagger thing) I prefer logs and blowdowns Now I live where even those are scarce! We do have some nice smooth rocks in some places.


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