# Granberg vs. Holzforma 36" Alaskan Mill (A Comparison)



## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Alright, so I went through with it and bought the Holzforma mill from China, via Ebay. Total cost was 137USD shipped. I took some measurements to help with the comparison and will provide you with my general impression of each of the pieces.

Warning! I had to go back and directly attach the images as they do not show up for some app viewers when just linking to my album photos, so there are A LOT of relatively large photos. Low bandwidth beware.

This is the full package, laid out with all the pieces. Other than the mill frame it comes with a scrench (Phillips head), a small open ended wrench, a little synthetic zipper bag to hold the tools, and some cute tiny gloves. I have since relinquished the gloves to my Wife, nothing really to report there.




All the comparison posts are described with the Granberg on the left and Holz on the right. Keep in mind that the Granberg mill has been used several times over the past three years, so there is some schmu and wear on those parts.


Enjoy!


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Pictured is the square tube used for the cross brace and the metal strap which is used to bind it to the rails, as well as mount the handle.

Granberg tube:
178g
1.126"x1.125”
Overall, minus finish, identical dimensions in width and height

Holz:
174g, painted
0.075” longer
1.127x1.125” difference likely due to paint film thickness

Granberg Metal Strap:
68g
Same outer dimensions
0.129” thick
Holes crisp and square

Holz:
232g
0.157” thickness
Weird round stamping on one side, crisp on the other


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Brackets used to for post mounts and attachment to the rails.

Granberg:
387g
Labeled part number N2 782
Mating surface for mounting is lightly machined for better contact with rails, overall dimensions are extremely close, likely the same casting is used.

Holz:
367g

The pictures show the similarities well:


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Next is the rails, both the square tube and the round rail that feeds through the bracket.

The square rails have identical dimensions. G weight is 586g, H 610g. I believe the difference in weight can be attributed to the paint used on the Holz parts.

Granberg round rail:
692g
0.876” OD

Holz:
749g
0.861” OD
Very shiny, noticeably heavier.


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Nose end clamp assemblies.

Granberg lower:
426g
1.005x1.001”

Holz:
295g
0.991x0.987”
Noticeably smaller welds

The posts have identical dimensions. Granberg is 1023g and Holz is 839g. The welds are also noticeably smaller on the Holz here as well. Also, note the quality difference between the height markings on each of the posts.


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Power head end bar clamps and posts. The dimensions are identical between the two just like the nose ends. The same differences are present in the welds, weight, and height markings.

Granberg Lower: 625g Holz Lower: 513g
Granberg Upper: 1210g Holz Upper: 1045g


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Handle and nose guard.

Granberg handle:
242g
Softer, better feeling grip

Holz:
220g
Slick feeling plastic

Granberg Nose Guard:
0.062” thickness
Overall better feel and more even bend

Holz:
0.052” thickness


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

Finally, a comparison of the miscellaneous parts that hold this all together.

U-bolt: both weigh 50g and have .265"OD

U-bolt clamp pad: Identical dimensions G: 17g, H: 15G

Washers: weight was measured by averaging ten each G: 1.7g, H: 1.6g

Long sleeve style nuts:
Granberg:
16.5g
0.878” H
0.498” D
0.129” Wall and Thread
0.265” ID

Holz:
19g
0.984” H
0.511” D
0.120” Wall and thread
0.282” ID

Shoulder bolts:
Granberg:
14g
Cleaner, larger, more robust in
appearanceThreaded OD 0.310”
Square shoulder 0.310”

Holz:
12g
No markings, rougher overall
appearance
Threaded OD 0.302"
Square shoulder 0.307"

As a note, all hardware is interchangeable as a *set* between the mill parts, but you cannot mix and match the hardware between manufacturers. Example: Holz nuts do not work with Granberg bolts; Holz nuts and bolts work with Granberg frame.


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## JohnWayne (Apr 27, 2017)

I have milled a few logs with this mill frame since I did my initial comparison. Also, I assembled the mill and made all adjustments to it with the tools included, just to see if it came with everything needed.

Overall, for 137USD, this mill isn’t bad. Some stuff that I ran into is the handle doesn’t line up perpendicular to the rails. This didn’t affect the operation of the mill in any way, it is just something to note. Also, the posts are not perfectly plumb when assembled. Other than some light binding when adjusting the cut depth, this does not affect operation of the mill. It didn’t bow the bar and belly the cut, or anything like that. I haven’t fully determined if the out of plumb posts are cause by the post clamp pad and u-bolt fitting into the casting or the weird excess material on the mating surface of the bracket where it meets the rails (See pictures of brackets). I believe it is the latter, and will confirm as soon as I get around to filing the mating surface flat.

So there you have it, I hope this was useful for somebody.


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## Bedford T (Apr 27, 2017)

I thought it was well built. I did not have one to compare it with. Mostly it's construction seems beefier if I am reading this correctly. Which is a good thing. The nose is shaped slightly off but it seemed heavy and had plenty of room.

I found using a 24" bar with a sprocket..making the cutting width smaller, it bowed slightly. After reading this it must have been a natural thing to occur.


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## marti384 (Apr 28, 2017)

Thanks for the write up. What is the max width of cut of the Chinese one?


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## JohnWayne (Apr 28, 2017)

marti384 said:


> Thanks for the write up. What is the max width of cut of the Chinese one?



The maximum possible but is the same as the granberg, about 33" if you have the bar to support it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marshy (Apr 28, 2017)

Do they have larger (wider cuts) available?


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

You should check out logsol, 50 some inches is about most for a Alaskan


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## BobL (Apr 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> You should check out logsol, 50 some inches is about most for a Alaskan


Where does the 50" limit come from?
Alaskans can make cuts up to the limits of the lengths of mill rails and bars available?.
Some fellas on this forum have 84" bar setups, and I have heard of one with a 96" bar.


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

BobL said:


> Where does the 50" limit come from?
> Alaskans can make cuts up to the limits of the lengths of mill rails and bars available?.
> Some fellas on this forum have 84" bar setups, and I have heard of one with a 96" bar.



Google, didn't see anything beyond 58. I guess you just make longer rails then. So if they can be shorter they can also be longer. Schooled. 

So where is the reference for maximum bar length per cc or model saw. I have been searching for information. Looks like there would be a formula somewhere. What saw can effectively run a 96" bar?


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## BobL (Apr 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Google, didn't see anything beyond 58. I guess you just make longer rails then. So if they can be shorter they can also be longer. Schooled.



60" is a relatively common bar size on 100+cc saws




> So where is the reference for maximum bar length per cc or model saw. I have been searching for information. Looks like there would be a formula somewhere.



There's no hard and fast rule for bar sizes and powerhead cc - it depends on things like wood hardness, and chain setups.
Given that the max size saws currently available are around 120cc, CSMers with long bars generally live with the speeds they can get.
Some use double ended dual-powerhead, setups, and some use skip chain to ease power head loads.
It is even possible to use a 60" bar on a 90cc saw, just got to accept it's not going to cut fast.
Above about 50" bar sag becomes an issue but it doesn't stop folks using them.


> What saw can effectively run a 96" bar?


A Stihl 090 (137cc) could run a 96" bar.

This a pic of my dad in 1958, with his 2 man, 96" bar, 250cc , Teles Smith power head with less HP than a modern 120cc saw. In an 8 hour day they spent 4 hours a day sharpening and fiddling with the saw. No muffler which is what dad completely lost hearing in one ear and most of the hearing in the other.


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## SeMoTony (Apr 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> You should check out logsol, 50 some inches is about most for a Alaskan


refer my avatar, 60" cannon bar in that alaskan with no sag showing up. I am making alaskan style frame for 72" dual powered cannon saw miller bar. Heavier/sturdier components but same design. There is really no limit to length in use of the design if you have a stiff bar (-; And even Bobl has a pimped out sag avoiding magnet system to level bar at beginning of cut.


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

I have recently seen what Bob is capable of and it's a treat. But when normal folk talk about 50+ is about maximum that does not mean experts can't do more. We mortals live in a world different than Bob and lesser experts than yourself. Not to say I could not learn and come close to defying norms. But putting too long of a bar on a 661 is like surfing the web with 256 ram and a 386 processor. Painful comes to mind. I so don't doubt the 090 capability with a great chain. This all is great. One day it will fall in place for me, I am gathering stuff.


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## SeMoTony (Apr 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I have recently seen what Bob is capable of and it's a treat. But when normal folk talk about 50+ is about maximum that does not mean experts can't do more. We mortals live in a world different than Bob and lesser experts than yourself. Not to say I could not learn and come close to defying norms. But putting too long of a bar on a 661 is like surfing the web with 256 ram and a 386 processor. Painful comes to mind. I so don't doubt the 090 capability with a great chain. This all is great. One day it will fall in place for me, I am gathering stuff.


Ms-460 is pulling a skip chisel by Oregon around that 60" bar in avatar. 72cc IIRC patience with my easy on the powerhead to use in place of abuse my equipment. I have a lot of enjoyment that comes from seeing the fresh green surface come out of the slice.
Title "Want to go bigger-- lets see your Giant CSM's" about page three will show you how others have built stiff enough frames to keep level support with bar. None of us were born knowing how to do this just right, we as a group have learned from those doing this before us. And even along side us at same time ,as you may do by eyeballing it all, modifying to correct,asking questions of the rest of us and sharing answers with this community


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

Your dad's saw was massive. I looked it up. This one has mufflers. Wow. Not many trees left that deserve one if these.


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## BobL (Apr 28, 2017)

There's nothing that expert about it .
Here we go, off the shelf 72" mill rails for your Granberg 
http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...Granberg-72-Alaskan-Mill-Rail-Set-G781-72.axd
I see baileys also has an 87" woodland double ended bar for sale.


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

An a 090 coming in the mail. The trees for it a growing plentifully. Google let me down it did not show me those rails.


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## BobL (Apr 29, 2017)

Dad was a tree faller in the Italian alps before migrating to Australia in the early 1950's. He worked in a sawmill for a year before he and his workmate (Charlie) managed to get a contract falling 200ft al karri trees. The started out with Axes and cross cut saws. The had to cut steps an insert boards as steps to get up to a thinner part of the tree like this





Then they would cut the scarf with axes. some of trees were so massive that they had to crawl inside the scarf to complete the cut. Charlie was smaller than dad so he dis that. The the cross cut from behind and jump and run for your life when it fell. It use to take the One and a half days to cut down one tree and buck it into 20-30 ft long lengths
In the mid 50s the Teles Smith arrived and despite only using it 4 hours a day - the rest of the time was sharpening (it had very soft chains) and fiddling with the engine - they were able to cut down 4 trees a day. Because the TS was so heavy the powerhead end could not be lifted to start the scarf with the bar level, Instead the operator at the helper hand end used to lift the outboard end of the bar up high above his head and then pull the end down into the tree. As dad was tall than Charlie he got this job.

In 1959 dad got his first one man saw, a McCulloch with a 42" bar. These were very reliable saws with much better chains and he alone could cut down 8 trees a day. He had two of these saws and used to carry both through the bush along with fuel and oil, and a hessian bag containing steel wedges, chain sloops tools and two axes and a water bottle. This was when dad used to take me out with him but I was only about 6 years old and all I could carry was the fuel and oil. I also made the fire for "Billy Tea" and when I got older rode shotgun (on the top of the diesel fuel tank behind the driver) on the D9 dozer which used to drag the fallen and bucked logs into the truck loading area. My job was to jump off the back of the moving dozer and hook the chain or wire rope around the log. Then run after the dozer towing the log and jump onto the back of the moving tracks so they carried me back up to the level of the fuel tank where I'd jump over onto the fuel tank - OHS nightmares when I think about it.

At this cutting speed and with about 100 other fallers at work in the same are of forest it came down in swathes. After a year of this the local sawmills had enough logs on site for two years worth of milling and all timber falling contracts were cancelled. Dad moved to another town and managed to get back into falling for a few years before he was badly injured in a logging truck accident.
The Teles Smith was sold in 1967 and used as a boat motor. Dad kept the bar until some time in the 70s and got rid of it without telling me.
Years later I went to look for it and was very disappointed to see it had gone.

Some more info in this post
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-how-to-cut-thread.119821/page-2#post-1922578


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## IyaMan (Apr 30, 2017)

JohnWayne said:


> Brackets used to for post mounts and attachment to the rails.



It may be worth mentioning that Granberg has updated its end bracket design in the past year. Also, the clamp for the horizontal tubular cross-pipe is now screwed on separately instead of being all one piece.


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## Marshy (May 2, 2017)

I was just wondering how large the Chinese Alaskan mill is offered. If it's cheaper than the Granberg I would entertain buying a mid 40" mill. I searched the internet and could not find who sells them or what sizes they are offered in.


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## JohnWayne (May 2, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I was just wondering how large the Chinese Alaskan mill is offered. If it's cheaper than the Granberg I would entertain buying a mid 40" mill. I searched the internet and could not find who sells them or what sizes they are offered in.



I have found them on eBay in 24" and 36" lengths, nothing larger than that. In the end if you can find the longer rails reasonably priced, you can just take all the parts off a 24" mill and have a larger mill.


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## rarefish383 (May 3, 2017)

Great story Bob, and like the family history. My parents were thinking of moving to Australia in the mid 50's. I don't know who they were in contact with. May have been the Australian embassy in Wash D. C. We did a lot of tree work for the embassies back then. Anyway, they offered to pay all of our relocation and transport fees, and guaranteed a job upon arrival. The only thing they would not pay for was converting your vehicles to right hand drive. Dad had just bought a new Pontiac and wasn't going to leave it, so we stayed here. Otherwise, we might be neighbors, Joe.


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## SammyW (Jun 3, 2017)

JohnWayne said:


> I have found them on eBay in 24" and 36" lengths, nothing larger than that. In the end if you can find the longer rails reasonably priced, you can just take all the parts off a 24" mill and have a larger mill.



If it still helps, I just upgraded my Chinese eBay mill to 42" rails using an extrusion from a local aluminium place. It's not identical to the stuff that comes with the mill - missing the cross brace bit and is slightly wider do the bolts are a bit trickier to tighten, but it only costs $40 for 6 metres (Ullrich aluminium)! Ask for "sign track/channel" - in Australia, it's the extrusion the use on the back of street signs.
For the round tube I just used water pipe from bunnings.
Just milled 4x2.5m Ironbark slabs this arvo with it, and it works a treat!
Ed: search for "backing channel" in here.
Ed2: just realised you're in the States, but I imagine there's something similar there.


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