# Elbow and wrist soreness



## minny

Hey guys and girls! Anyone know why tree workers get the sore elbows and wrists? 
I've heard that it might be vibrations from chainsaws.
My elbows are getting really bad in the inside, or underside bone. You know, the funny-bone. 'ICY-HOT' only helps for a minute. 
Anyone know of an excersize or remedy for this pain? 
Thanks!


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## ddhlakebound

I've had this pain......almost everyone here has at one point or another. It is usually tendonitis, from repetative stress injury (overworking your wrist or elbow). From what I've experienced, and heard from others, one handing your trim saw will cause or complicate this injury. The worst I ever had it was from days on end of hold and cut R.O.W. trimming. Many times, working from a bucket and trimming over power lines, you only have one hand available to use the saw. 

Rest is the only thing I know of that will make it go away. Good work positioning, and keeping both hands on your saw will do alot to keep it gone, or at least make it easier to work through the pain. 

That said, I'm not a doctor, I only play one on the internet.....so if it hurts......go see a doctor.


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## Dadatwins

One handing the chainsaw the most common cause, usually diagnosed as tennis elbow, but see a doctor anyway, they will usually prescribe anti -inflamatory medication and rest. Two hands on the saw, or even better a good hand saw like a Silky for doing most of your smaller cutting can help a whole lot. May sound crazy but with the new modern Silky hand saws you can cut limbs faster than the time it takes to unsnap the chainsaw and start it, and they only weight about 1/10 as much.


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## disandat

I'm not an arborist but I am a hardwood floorman thus I have irritation in the elbo and the thumb socket. So, instead of grippng my thumb around the hammer, I rest it on top. Not sure if this can be adapted to the chainsaw or not. It's just a matter of changing you grip a little I think.


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## preach it

You can try wearing supports on your elbows that are made for tennis elbow. I run into the same thing and find that if I work any real hard tree work labor that the elbow supports are a hassle but at the end of the day the muscles in that area don't hurt. It is either look cool and be in pain or wear the supports and no pain. Just a hint, check around and see what others do, and check with a doctor if you can afford that.


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## windthrown

*Tendonitis (Tennis elbow)*

I had and still have bad tendonitis from doing a number of things (mouse/keyboard use, chainsaw use, kayaking, motorcycle riding, shoveling, raking, hammering, and yes, even playing tennis!). I was at the Stanford Medical Center hand clinic for 3 months in therapy for it several years ago. I had it so bad I had 40% strength in my left hand and I was dropping things like milk cartons and stuff. Several things will help, and several things may be causes. The best thing that helps me is to wear a forarm brace that is elastic; the hand clinic gave me one from BodyGlove made out of neoprene that I have since worn out and not been able to replace. The next best type I have found is a Tru-Fit elastic and adjustable arm brace that I wear religiously when driving and chainsawing and shoveling. O/w I get the arm pain pretty fast. The idea of this device is to keep the muscles in your arm from fully tightening and this avoids irritation to the nerves. 

Also there are stretches that you can do to stretch out the arm muscles. The usual cause of tendonitis is from muscles tensing up and rubbing against the nerve in your arm. Relax the muscle and stretch it out and that can reduce the inflamation on the nerve. To stretch that muscle group, place your bad arm hand straight out with the palm down. Place your other hand on top and twist it to move the thumb down and out, pinkie up. Now pull your bad arm toward you bending the elbow out sideways and continue to twist with the other hand until you feel the muscle and nerve group that is bothering you. Now twist some more and stretch that muscle out as much as you can. Do this a few times a day and it will really help, along with wearing the arm brace. You can also take Advil or Aleve as an anti-inflamant to settle the inflamation down. You can also ice the muscle once a day for 20 minutes and do arm exercises, and even dip your arm in hot wax. I use our hottub a lot and I alternate the arm between hot water and cold air. Hot to cold to hot in 5 minute cycles will help relax the muscles and reduce the nerve irritation as well. 

You can also go to a doctor and or sports clinic and they can teach you how to avoid this kind of problem, and things to do to help you deal with it. :help: 

Hope this helps...


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## jab6

*tennis elbow*

i am going through therapy now for it...im a welder and i use my right arm alot...the nurse told me that when you use your musles alot what ever seperates the musles wheres thin,,and your musles start to bridge together..thats the pain...what shes doing for me is spredding cream on my arm and rubbing it pretty hard with these plastic edged sex toy lookin things...trying to break up the musles..it can hurt a little. but its helpin..


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## Bermie

The last two posts are spot on.

We've talked quite a bit about tennis elbow in other threads.
Massaging the sore area with an ice cube works too. 
Keep stretching it, massage it, even when it hurts, then ice it and take some advil it the pain is bad.
It's a chronic repetetive stress injury that is difficult to cure comepletely given that we're always working. The main tendons that hurt are connected to your middle and index finger so anything you can do to ease your grip will help. Stopping from time to time during the day and stretching helps.

I've got it and with the Christmas break it's died down to a niggle, but I keep stretching and massage it when I feel a twinge.

Good Luck!


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## CoreyTMorine

I 2nd the neoprene braces. My collection includes knee, elbo and wrist braces. They only see use if i am experiencing pain or stiffness, but i don't hesitate to wear them, its amazing how much they help to reduce pain and to heal the "injuries".

I keep an ace bandage in my bag, as soon as i start to feel a little discomfort from overuse of a certain joint it gets wrapped up. Latter when i get home i dig out one of the neoprene braces and wear it for a few days. The pain is lessened by the brace and the injury heals more quickly.

Once i get warmed up and working it is easy to forget about the injury.The brace is a good reminder to take it easy and kind of baby the affected area. 

The ace bandages don't hold up well while working, and i often lose the little clips, so sometimes i wont put it on until i'm packing up for the day. Does anyone know of a better way to secure an ace bandage , something besides the little clips that come with the wrap, or safety pins? neither of those options work really well.

If you buy neoprene knee braces try and find one where the hook part of the velcro fastener points away from your skin. Mine fastens behind the knee, and often the attatchment will shift and cause the hooks to rub against the back of my leg, this can be irritating.

I've also had some luck with spandex arm warmers sold at bicycle stores. They are like a spandex sock that is open at both ends. And they fit nicely over my knee and shin gaurds.

I don't stretch an area that is in pain, this seems to do more harm than good. Sometimes a light extension to check the range of motion and to get an idea of how the area is doing. Also light massage of the muscles and gristle that are bothering me helps, i do this throughout the day. But my full stretching regime is preventitive, and can cause further inflamation of a trouble spot.

The other option I have seen practiced is just to drink alot of beer after work, or during luch if the pain is really bad. This will alow you to work through the discomfort. However it will eventually lead to cortozone shots, and probably surgery to clean out the mess of scar tissue that will develope. Personally i think it is a bad idea to do anything while under the influence of drugs, your chances of death or injury are greatly increased.


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## moss

Here's the WebMD entry for "Medial Epicondylitis"

They talk about repetitive over-gripping and forearm muscle loading as being a cause. I suspect climbing the rope is a source of many injuries. My left inside elbow started hurting a few months after I started using a reverse left-hand grip when body-thrusting on a Blake's (to push the hitch up faster). I've modified my technique and use rubber sticky gloves so I don't have to grab the rope so hard.
-moss


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## coydog

I use to have pretty severe elbow pain as well as neck back wrist shoulders etc. switching to a vt climbing knot helped my elbow somewhat, professional massage therapy also helped a lot with all of the above, but working with a personal trainer that focuses on developing secondary muscle groups has been the only thing that has seemed to give me lasting results.It took about six months to really start seeing and feeling it but the change in overall structure and posture has been dramatic and most of my chronic pain associated with tree work has gone away. a lot of the exercises are pretty basic but focus on muscle groups that you wouldn't ordinarily think of using to perform a motion. unfortunately I don't think I could accurately describe them or the related stretches via internet, but it might be worthwhile to seek out. A good chiropracter, massage therapist, sports physical therapist, etc. may be able to provide a good reference to someone.I'm a firm believer in treating the cause as opposed to symptoms when possible, and certainly I agree with the previous posts that one handing saws etc. can cause injury. Tree work is hard on the body even if it is a workout on its own, I think any kind of exercise regimen outside of it will help keep you more balanced and healthy. ( I'm noticing a twinge in my left wrist as I'm writing this, lots of 088 use the last few days)


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## Xtra

I had a lot of pain in my wrist last winter. What helped was changing the way I started my top handle saw. I used to hold the handle near the throttle and it was torquing my wrist and irritating a nerve. I changed to holding the top wrap handle by the brake and the pain started going away.

Also as a side note. Last year I had really bad rotator cuff pain. I went to two sports medicine doctors and no one could help me - just a lot of shots and pain killers. After trying a ton of stuff I found out the pain was caused by the suspenders on my glide saddle being too tight and they were pinching a nerve on my shoulder that was upsetting my rotator cuff.


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## Bobs PSI

coydog said:


> I use to have pretty severe elbow pain as well as neck back wrist shoulders etc. switching to a vt climbing knot helped my elbow somewhat, professional massage therapy also helped a lot with all of the above, but working with a personal trainer that focuses on developing secondary muscle groups has been the only thing that has seemed to give me lasting results.It took about six months to really start seeing and feeling it but the change in overall structure and posture has been dramatic and most of my chronic pain associated with tree work has gone away. a lot of the exercises are pretty basic but focus on muscle groups that you wouldn't ordinarily think of using to perform a motion. unfortunately I don't think I could accurately describe them or the related stretches via internet, but it might be worthwhile to seek out. A good chiropracter, massage therapist, sports physical therapist, etc. may be able to provide a good reference to someone.I'm a firm believer in treating the cause as opposed to symptoms when possible, and certainly I agree with the previous posts that one handing saws etc. can cause injury. Tree work is hard on the body even if it is a workout on its own, I think any kind of exercise regimen outside of it will help keep you more balanced and healthy. ( I'm noticing a twinge in my left wrist as I'm writing this, lots of 088 use the last few days)



Ditto 110% I could not have said it better myself. The only thing I don't do any more is see the chiropractor. I end up hurting more afterwords. I see a massage therapist that specializes in rehabilitation, he separates the pinched nerves from the muscles. I have had a pain between my shoulder blades for the last 17 years and I feel that pain no more, and all it was is a few pinched nerves. Most all the pains I have now days the massage therapist can work them out. If you don't have one I strongly suggest getting one and seeing him or her once a week. But you must find one that specializes in rehabilitation. Anyone can rub some skin and make you temporally relax, that is not what you are after. When they work on you it should hurt like hell but feel good at the same time.


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## gitrdun_climbr

*on point with the sports massage therapist*

Ibuprophen alone won't work. Beer alone won't work Cortisone won't work permanently. You may or may not have tennis elbow...this is more of an outer-elbow affliction than inner but I had severe tennis elbow from four nights a week of martial arts and almost seven days a week of tree and firewood work along with lots of other activities. I tend to heal fast so I let a whole year go by before I realized it wasn't just going away...I couldn't even squeeze the toothpaste tube or tie my boots anymore...both arms. I contacted a sports massage therapist and in TWO WEEKS (two session) the pain was 90% gone. The other 8% subsided over a couple of months and to date there is always a very slight sensation in there but not enough to affect my day whatsoever. This was his required regimine:

1) He was able to warm and deep massage those tendons with pinpoint accuracy. He described the scar tissue build up as a material similar to Jello. Under normal conditions it was able to form, remain and irritate those tendons...from overuse. When warmed and worked, it breaks down and is absorbed into your system. Pain was moderate while he did this but he was able to 'wear away' that scar tissue with his thumbs! Highly effective!

2) Wear the tennis elbow brace while working AND sleeping. The brace works much like a fret on guitar strings in that it clamps down the tendons in the arm just before they tie in at the elbow, hence, resting that 'tie-in' even while working. Why during sleep? Many times in a night, many of us flex those tendons vigorously...my pain was usually worse in the AM than any time during the day.

3) Ice cubes massaged directly over the tie-in in the elbow after work (I did slack on this). This was said to combat inflammation and continue to break down scar tissue (sources of pain). Temporary use of Ibuprophen as well but keep in mind it must be built up in the system to optimally reduce inflammation...may take several days of regular use before this happens...then I kept at it with regular doses. I'm no doctor so make sure your system is tolerant of Ibuprophen.

So I've dropped the martial arts but still climb, cut, split, play ice-hockey, snowshoe, chainsaw carve...whatever and the pain HASN'T COME BACK! If anyone is in pain in the Seattle area I will be happy to refer you...he's $50 per 30 minute session and gives you lots of good 'healing' info from many standpoints as dietary, motion/mechanical, etc.


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## Sunrise Guy

Arnica gel, lots of it globbed on, will ease the pain and help clear up the problem. Also wear the tennis elbow brace while you work, but watch out for blisters caused by the plastic guard that is attached to it. I had tennis elbow to the point where I was unable to shake hands with anyone without horrible pain. I got back to normal, after three weeks of arnica and the brace.

For me, it was pole sawing that caused the condition. The repetitive flexing and relaxing just was murder on my elbow. Now I let my bad arm, my right, just guide the pole, instead of flexing with each stroke.


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## kevinj

Hi Milly, by what your describing, the pain on the underside of the elbow, for sure is not " tennis elbow " Tennis elbow, (lateral epicondolitis) is on the top front part of the elbow. Consult a doctor. I've had both elbows operated on
for tennis elbow. It's a slow recovery. Hopefully, you may have something that is easier to recover from. Best Wishes!


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## minderaser66

i've got the bad elbow also. i think its from swingin the 020 around all day.
doc gives me a cortisone shot in the elbow when it flares up . its not very good for you but in about 3-4 days the pain is gone. i'm talkin pain, like when you cant even lift a gallon of milk. works wonders for me.


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## gitrdun_climbr

*testiment*

Get good physical therapy...use the brace...usage/mechanical adjustments...tennis elbow can be quickly cleared up without 'bandaid' remedies and/or surgery. A good physical therapist can also provide accurate/informed diagnosis as well. As earlier stated by kevinj and myself, pain on underside of elbow doesn't sound like tennis elbow.

Good luck!


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## minderaser66

*stinkin elbow*

Hey All,
I did a little therapy for the elbow but soon after the cortisone shot the pain goes away so i dont go to pt because it feels good again... 
i get anywhere from 6 to 12 months of relief with the cortisone.
the brace works pretty good but i'm afraid this whole problem isnt going to go away unless i find another line of work. lately i've been using 2 hands on the saw and find it easier on my elbow but more often than not i need to cut 1 handed to "cut and throw" branches that are too small for a lowering line.
thanks for your advice though....
later,steve


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## minderaser66

oh and by the way , my elbow pain isnt on the underside, it's right on the top.
directly on that roundish bony part. i guess you have to feel your own elbow to understand where i'm talkin about.


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## gitrdun_climbr

*that IS tennis elbow*

Bummer you might quit this awesome line of work just to try to get rid of it...you'll likely find almost any line of work can irritate it as well though; I know a mailman who had a SEVERE case and another who is a server.

Don't get me wrong, we all one-hand from time to time but it's probably a good idea to eliminate that as a regular, every-branch, practice for more reasons than just tennis elbow. On those branches too small to rig I have great success with the snap cut...two hands on saw...then two hands on branch.

I'll step off my physical therapy soap box after this comment: it really works on severe tennis elbow.

Take care!


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## kevinj

*Cortisone*

Cortisone for me anyway, caused more problems.
The cortisone injection only works if you take it easy with the gripping for a few months. It will take almost all the pain away, which gives a feeling that it's healed. However, in my case and others too, because it feels good, you go about your normal business and beyond. When doing so, you actually tear or damage that tendon more. Lateral Epicondolitis is caused by gripping, and usually twisting the wrist and bending the elbow above the shoulder.
If you can visualise a tennis player swinging, as in a serve.
Just my advice on cortisone.


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## Bermie

kevinj said:


> Hi Milly, by what your describing, the pain on the underside of the elbow, for sure is not " tennis elbow " Tennis elbow, (lateral epicondolitis) is on the top front part of the elbow. Consult a doctor. I've had both elbows operated on
> for tennis elbow. It's a slow recovery. Hopefully, you may have something that is easier to recover from. Best Wishes!





kevinj said:


> Cortisone for me anyway, caused more problems.
> The cortisone injection only works if you take it easy with the gripping for a few months. It will take almost all the pain away, which gives a feeling that it's healed. However, in my case and others too, because it feels good, you go about your normal business and beyond. When doing so, you actually tear or damage that tendon more. Lateral Epicondolitis is caused by gripping, and usually twisting the wrist and bending the elbow above the shoulder.
> If you can visualise a tennis player swinging, as in a serve.
> Just my advice on cortisone.




The pain on the bottom/inside of the elbow is apparently called 'golf elbow'!! I had both at the same time!

Good advice regarding the cortisone, you cannot go out and resume your normal activities so soon after getting the injection!! 
Also repeated cortisone injections are NOT GOOD in the long term. I had bad rotator cuff injuries from field hockey, in both shoulders, over 10 years. My orthopedic doctor said he would not inject more if I'd already had three in total in each shoulder - that's it, period. 

Change of position, grip, massage, braces, ICE. And get on top of the situation EARLY. If it is bad, get the cortisone but it's not a magic bullet!


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## treevet

I can relate to all those pains mentioned. My problem right now was diagnosed by a hand doctor as called trigger finger. It has developed from mainly the pulling of the starter cord and especially (in my opinion) the expected aid of the compression release and it not working. Man, sometimes you feel like howling. My mechanic put a rescue handle on my 088 which gives a full grip but we broke that the other day. What I ve got makes the tendons on my trigger finger and the one finger salute finger stick on a bone and the finger gets stuck down. When it breaks loose it is like an electric shock. Just another repetitive use injury. I d love a lightweight auto starter. I need an operation w a 1-2 month layup. I ll probable never get it done and I ve used up all cortisone injections.


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## Curtis James

Yoga is my cure all. It takes time and discipline to stick with it but it definetally helps all alments.


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## SRT-Tech

jab6 said:


> i am going through therapy now for it...im a welder and i use my right arm alot...the nurse told me that when you use your musles alot what ever seperates the musles wheres thin,,and your musles start to bridge together..thats the pain...what shes doing for me is spredding cream on my arm and rubbing it pretty hard with these plastic edged sex toy lookin things...trying to break up the musles..it can hurt a little. but its helpin..




say that nurse...whereabouts can i find her....?  :biggrinbounce2:


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## Ekka

:hmm3grin2orange: touche'


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## PA. Woodsman

*This guys on the right track!*



Sunrise Guy said:


> Arnica gel, lots of it globbed on, will ease the pain and help clear up the problem.



This fellow is on the right track suggesting "natural" supplements that can help. And those that suggest a massage therapist are 100% correct too. I have similiar pain/problems at times, and I rely on both of these for relief. You are most likely straining tendons, ligaments and muscles and that is causing your pain. A good therapist can listen to you explain what you do and where it hurts and "rub" it out and give you streching/strengthening exercises; holding ice on the area every night for about 15-20 minutes will help take down the inflammation. I also use the following supplements and they not only relieve the pain but they support your body:

Arnica Montana gel-rubbed on the area is an old and effective pain remedy.
Arnica Montana pills-sublingual pills that dissolve under the toungue several times a day.
Enzymatic Therapy "Myo-tone"-supports muscles, tendons and ligaments-these pills are great!
Source Naturals "Joint Response"-or any other brand of glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM. These pills are awesome for keeping your kness, elbows and more in good shape and pain free.

At least look into these things and talk to someone at a good health food store near you-they work, have no real side effects if taken as directed, and are much safer and helpful than cortisone shots and pain pills, which can only make your body deterioate MORE! 

Good luck!!


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## PA. Woodsman

SRT-Tech said:


> say that nurse...whereabouts can i find her....?  :biggrinbounce2:



 :jester:


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