# A few questions about logging from a land owner



## oregonhills32 (Dec 10, 2018)

Hey guys I own a decent sized property here in Oregon and I have a few questions to get sorted out, I'm looking to manage the timber land I own but I'm needing a bit of information. I have my own self loader and a cat I'm going to use to skid it out. I use the self loader for firewood, but I can haul some decent loads off to a mill with it no problem.


I'm looking to contractor my own fallers but, in terms of contract cutting what does it mean to "have your own numbers"? I see this question asked frequently when people interact with cutters here in Oregon. If I'm going to be asking a question to potential contractors, I want to know what it means.

Who actually supplies the insurance for these guys? so I know what I'm looking for. I've never heard of any mainstream insurance companies insuring timber fallers.

Realistically, how long should it take a single cutter to do a 6 acre strip? Or better yet, how much on average should a single cutter be able to do in a day? I've heard of guys cutting an acre of thick timber a day, maybe that was all BS though? I'd rather not get dillied around paying day wage by someone taking too long. I'll also be putting it in the contract that the job must be finished before 'X' date, so I'd like to know a reasonable time to have it finished by.


Thanks in advance!


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## catbuster (Dec 10, 2018)

Oh lord... Down the rabbitt hole we go. There’s usually a lot of grey area involved here. Plenty of people do the ol’ buddy system of handshake deals. A lot of them go wrong, fast. Remember, you are a landowner, not a contractor/logger. 

The right way is that if they are a contract faller you are hiring to fall timber they provide everything for the task at hand. They provide their own PPE, working equipment (saws, fuel, chains, bars, bar oil, truck to haul their equipment in/quad to run around the property if that’s what they like) as well as their own insurance. Your job is to provide the property, have it marked, and access to it. You cover your ass, and they stay above board. They do nothing else but put trees on the ground/limb/buck if you hire them to do it. You need to get what you are hiring them to do in writing, have it checked with a lawyer, and get both your signiatures on it before any work takes place. That severely limits what they can do to you in the case of something going wonky.

Timber per day really depends on how you’re cutting (thinning/selective/clear), the ground you’re on as well as what wood is being cut, and time of year. An acre is 43560 square feet, which isn’t nearly as big as you’d think. 

The ground you have/access is a huge deal. If you have to hike in an hour with all your stuff you eat two hours a day. In the winter when the sun comes up at 10:00 and sets at 16:00 that doesn’t leave much time to work. In the summer when the sun comes up at 5:00 and sets at 22:00 then you can start working 10-16 hours and really cover a lot of ground in a day. That two hours packing in/out is no big deal. Not to mention that steep & rocky ground will take three times as long to work because moving around is so much harder. 

In the summer, clearing big, well spaced trees on decent ground I can kill an acre in two days. I figure a mature stand is 80-120 trees per acre, I can fell tree every 10-15 minutes, that’s 800-1800 minutes, or somewhere between 13.5 & 30 hours. Can it be done in less time? Sure. Can it be done safely? I’d argue not. You need to size the tree up, at least half plan it, brush out if you have to, fill the saw with fuel & oil and then finally put the tree on the ground and limb/buck as needed. I could thin/selectively cut an acre a day, sure.


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## Skeans (Dec 10, 2018)

catbuster said:


> Oh lord... Down the rabbitt hole we go. There’s usually a lot of grey area involved here. Plenty of people do the ol’ buddy system of handshake deals. A lot of them go wrong, fast. Remember, you are a landowner, not a contractor/logger.
> 
> The right way is that if they are a contract faller you are hiring to fall timber they provide everything for the task at hand. They provide their own PPE, working equipment (saws, fuel, chains, bars, bar oil, truck to haul their equipment in/quad to run around the property if that’s what they like) as well as their own insurance. Your job is to provide the property, have it marked, and access to it. You cover your ass, and they stay above board. They do nothing else but put trees on the ground/limb/buck if you hire them to do it. You need to get what you are hiring them to do in writing, have it checked with a lawyer, and get both your signiatures on it before any work takes place. That severely limits what they can do to you in the case of something going wonky.
> 
> ...



Another thing to think about here in Oregon we’re only allowed to cut so many a day, also with the Land Owner being the general he needs insurance as well as the sub. 

I’d suggest making sure you can even get a Purchase order with a mill and get the state permits all done including the power equipment permits taken care of first then talk with the ODF officer and see who they recommend.


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## oregonhills32 (Dec 10, 2018)

catbuster said:


> Oh lord... Down the rabbitt hole we go. There’s usually a lot of grey area involved here. Plenty of people do the ol’ buddy system of handshake deals. A lot of them go wrong, fast. Remember, you are a landowner, not a contractor/logger.
> 
> The right way is that if they are a contract faller you are hiring to fall timber they provide everything for the task at hand. They provide their own PPE, working equipment (saws, fuel, chains, bars, bar oil, truck to haul their equipment in/quad to run around the property if that’s what they like) as well as their own insurance. Your job is to provide the property, have it marked, and access to it. You cover your ass, and they stay above board. They do nothing else but put trees on the ground/limb/buck if you hire them to do it. You need to get what you are hiring them to do in writing, have it checked with a lawyer, and get both your signiatures on it before any work takes place. That severely limits what they can do to you in the case of something going wonky.
> 
> ...





Alright gotcha, makes sense.

So what does it mean to 'have your own numbers'?


And when I'm looking at insurance what exactly should I be looking for? Loggers broadform, general liability?


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 10, 2018)

Is 6 acres the whole bit?

Around these parts, unless it had really nice wood, I wouldn't bother to setup on a small job like that.

Well... if it was a paying job, different story. Most jobs, we are paying for what we harvest.

We normally see ~5-7 cords an acre, so not worth hauling in equipment for 4-5 loads of wood.


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## oregonhills32 (Dec 10, 2018)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> Is 6 acres the whole bit?
> 
> Around these parts, unless it had really nice wood, I wouldn't bother to setup on a small job like that.
> 
> ...




No, its 30acres. I'm only hiring the cutters to get the timber on the ground then I'm skidding everything out, loading it on to my truck and hauling it to the mill. It's not firewood, its all doug fir/cedar.


You know what it means to 'have your own numbers'? I am trying to find an answer to this question.


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## Skeans (Dec 10, 2018)

oregonhills32 said:


> No, its 30acres. I'm only hiring the cutters to get the timber on the ground then I'm skidding everything out, loading it on to my truck and hauling it to the mill. It's not firewood, its all doug fir/cedar.
> 
> 
> You know what it means to 'have your own numbers'? I am trying to find an answer to this question.



Normally when I say that it’s what I’m going to charge to cut normally by the hour. Another is your PO number or permit numbers as well.


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## firmwood (Dec 10, 2018)

Whoa, only cut so many a day in Oregon? Links please, I'm intrigued 

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## dmb2613 (Dec 10, 2018)

you are going to be hard pressed to get a crew worth a darn to do that


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 10, 2018)

If Someone asked me for my "numbers"
Its Tax number and WCB number as we charge a tax on the invoice in BC
Certification is applicable here to so there is a Cert #
If you are a numbered LTD then that's a nother number.
I would send all the numbers at the top of Email and other relevant tickets and
resume if they want.
...And always a letter to show I am in good standing with WCB.
They can check that though my WCB # and my company too In 10 min time.
IF he does private stuff then I would expect he should have damage insurance and liability.
WCB is just his own personal injury coverage.Right? That may not be important there as it is here. 
People would get around it in Alaska by all the workers were legal partners in the
corp.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 10, 2018)

Skeans said:


> Another thing to think about here in Oregon we’re only allowed to cut so many a day, also with the Land Owner being the general he needs insurance as well as the sub.
> 
> I’d suggest making sure you can even get a Purchase order with a mill and get the state permits all done including the power equipment permits taken care of first then talk with the ODF officer and see who they recommend.
> 
> ...


 What do you mean ...only cut so many Skeans ? So many hours you mean? 6/12h on the saw. no?


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 10, 2018)

So just to put them on the ground only.
Mixed Ceder fir stand. no Arbutus mixed through? 
What age is the stand? Residual stem count? sapling stem count? Im used to cutting all the saplings to but if hey are not getting bucked there then they may not cut all that. Or are you going to top and limb in there?
If You don't have any info on the stand you can cut a plot cord to = 1/100th or 1/50th acre and do some plots to give you a better idea. I assume you do have all this?
You can't get accurate answer without some more questions answerd.


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## Skeans (Dec 10, 2018)

Westboastfaller said:


> What do you mean ...only cut so many Skeans ? So many hours you mean? 6/12h on the saw. no?



6 hours a day


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 10, 2018)

Certainly some interesting rules and systems in other areas. We have nothing like that around here!

"People would get around it in Alaska by all the workers were legal partners in the corp."

Yeah if you are an owner you don't need worker's comp, though I'd suspect that it would raise a flag if a small LLC had 10 "owners" with a 1% share or whatever. Doing that would make income taxes a headache too I'd think?


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## Jacob J. (Dec 10, 2018)

oregonhills32 said:


> No, its 30acres. I'm only hiring the cutters to get the timber on the ground then I'm skidding everything out, loading it on to my truck and hauling it to the mill. It's not firewood, its all doug fir/cedar.
> 
> 
> You know what it means to 'have your own numbers'? I am trying to find an answer to this question.



"Have your own numbers" means a logger's Broad Form (liability insurance), tax ID number, a Workman's comp account, and a bond, if required.

The mainstream insurance companies don't insure fallers, but there's many mom and pop offices that do. I had my "numbers" through the Gordon Wood Agency in Roseburg. They insure many loggers and fallers.
If you're cutting as a sub-contractor - generally you don't need a bond in Oregon, nor do you need a CCB. You do need the minimum broad form and you have to open a Workman's Comp account but not
be actively paying Workman's comp on yourself, if you're the proprietor (as an owner/operator). I had to deposit $500 in my Workman's Comp account at the time I was purchasing the broad form.

In terms of getting set-up, it's easiest and cheapest as a faller. Most large logging companies carry enormous bonds, and a bond is required if they are bidding on state and federal timber sales. They also pay some
of the highest workman's comp rates in agricultural contracting.

Definitely follow Skeans' advice and seek out the local ODF unit forester as well as the extension service forester if there's one in your area. Some of the counties also have land departments that employ professional foresters. Douglas County has one of the best land department foresters in the state. They also have an excellent extension service forester through OSU. You can a lot of good advice from those people for free or near to free.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 11, 2018)

Running their own numbers, they carry insurance, business license, and sometimes l+I insurance

Several industry specific ins agencies, wcla here in Washington is mine.

Cutting 6 acres really depends on terrain type and spacing of the timber and whether you want them limbed and bucked or fell tree length, also depends on the weather, so having a set in stone end date is not as wise as it sounds, some give and take is necessary.

For spit ball numbers, figure 5 to 10 minutes per tree to fall

30-45 minutes to fall, limb and buck each tree


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## madhatte (Dec 12, 2018)

OP -- these guys are giving rock solid advice, forester here, can confirm 100% everything they've said.


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## oregonhills32 (Dec 18, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Running their own numbers, they carry insurance, business license, and sometimes l+I insurance
> 
> Several industry specific ins agencies, wcla here in Washington is mine.
> 
> ...





Jacob J. said:


> "Have your own numbers" means a logger's Broad Form (liability insurance), tax ID number, a Workman's comp account, and a bond, if required.
> 
> The mainstream insurance companies don't insure fallers, but there's many mom and pop offices that do. I had my "numbers" through the Gordon Wood Agency in Roseburg. They insure many loggers and fallers.
> If you're cutting as a sub-contractor - generally you don't need a bond in Oregon, nor do you need a CCB. You do need the minimum broad form and you have to open a Workman's Comp account but not
> ...





Copy that.

When they setup the strips what should it be looking like? The ground isn't too steep, maybe a 30-45% grade. All the logs felled and bucked side hill or straight down? 

I'll have to figure out a way to make little path ways to skid everything out if its all side hill. I don't know what a strip should look like if done correctly, so it's hard for me to imagine to get prepared for it. I also want to get an idea of what it SHOULD look like so I can ask the contractors how they'll do it, and compare to get a feel for the best contractor in my area. We have a lot out here and I'd rather go with the guys that know what they're doing.


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## catbuster (Dec 18, 2018)

I usually lay out downhill if I’m on any type of a hill, it’s just usually easier to work, and I have *big* (80,000 lb are usually the biggest I first bring in the woods before I start moving dirt) excavators. What size dozer do you have? My next question, and you really need to be honest with yourself as you answer this-how good are you on it? I’ve been on equipment a lot since I was 16, and there are still a lot of stuff I see people do that I won’t. 45% is getting close to 1:1, and that’s about as steep as you can safely work a dozer sidehill, much less before you have to fight stumps and other stuff to get high centered and hung up on. Don’t even get me started on high-drive vs older style/Kommie Kats dozers on side slopes.

Believe it or not, that would be a deciding factor for me dragging logs if I were going sidehill vs parallel with the slope only having a dozer.

As far as what it should look like? Game on. It’s going to vary. The idea is just to keep the logs parallel to the others without stacking them on top of one another and having them cross each other. If the faller you hire is doing all the limbing and bucking they will have a method they like and works for them. The next biggest thing for me after that is the stumps. I hate people who leave high stumps that get covered in slash and equipment gets hung up on.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 18, 2018)

oregonhills32 said:


> Copy that.
> 
> When they setup the strips what should it be looking like? The ground isn't too steep, maybe a 30-45% grade. All the logs felled and bucked side hill or straight down?
> 
> I'll have to figure out a way to make little path ways to skid everything out if its all side hill. I don't know what a strip should look like if done correctly, so it's hard for me to imagine to get prepared for it. I also want to get an idea of what it SHOULD look like so I can ask the contractors how they'll do it, and compare to get a feel for the best contractor in my area. We have a lot out here and I'd rather go with the guys that know what they're doing.



Really depends on yarding methods, if your dozer can drag them up hill, then lay em down the hill. Or quartered, but if you want them limbed and bucked, sidehill is what you will get, ever try walking a log down a hill? Isn't much fun... or safe

Biggest thing is that the timber is laid down, unbroken (mostly tops will break, and some in enevitable) and that they dont leave trees hung up or smash up the leave trees too much, there will be some damage to leave trees, but it should be minor, not an epidemic


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 19, 2018)

Down hill sounds better for you and it makes for faster falling with a natural pull from the hill on most all trees.
one faller one cat
Now you need to pull them to your landing. then buck and limb.
maybe one bucker can keep up with 
you. I would start will one and after the faller gets far enough ahead you could hire a side hill bucker in places if it makes sense. If you do that plan you falling accordingly so none is working dangerously in a falling zone. second bucker can bounce back and forth if needed. Bucker are cheaper that faller.
you don't have to have the second guy 
there everyday if you don't need him. Don't let it be because you poorly planed something. That's not cool and you could lose a good guy.
Its your wood...You are the boss. Just don't let your decisions create congestion jeopardizing someones 
safety. 
Sometimes I've bounced back to help the bucker a little bit. or if there is just me then I have to come down every once and a while to clean up logs the machine has spread out for me to get the underneath stubs and branches. 
Another strong reason for a bucker.

Take control. There is lots of give n take to get it done and much cheaper and smoother than two fallers prosesing hillside.

Have your faller ahead and going into the right spots that open up the most options.


I would go with a private Faller. (Contract Faller) stay away from someone that is trying to middle a little town job that will take half of someones wage.
It may reflect on the faller and his attitude. (don't ask me how I know this)
Last point on that....he may not he as experienced and or his gear may not be up to par.

Make sure they have good gear and a 
couple working saws


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 19, 2018)

@catbuster...I think your are thinking 45°
friend being as 1:1 ratio.

So I guess that puts him under
.5:1 or under 6 /12 pitch at steepest.


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## catbuster (Dec 19, 2018)

Westboastfaller said:


> @catbuster...I think your are thinking 45°
> friend being as 1:1 ratio.
> 
> So I guess that puts him under
> .5:1 or under 6 /12 pitch at steepest.



It puts him at .4:1. I goofed, engineer brain kicked in, I’ve been designing some pipe systems since I got back. Regardless, that’s still a sidehill I question a new operator on. Not super steep, but enough to roll a machine if it gets on a stump or rock.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 7, 2019)

How much wood is pulled off 6 acres?

Around here I'd see maybe 30 cords.


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