# Basic Bull / Rigging rope question from someone new to the site.....



## cdherman (Jan 30, 2016)

OK, I am in no way professional, but also a helluva lot smarter and experienced than the average joe. Sorry in advance.

I grew up in remote parts of north central Kansas. There are no truly trained pros there. My family and I have been cutting down trees, putting up firewood, clearing messes for decades. No one has ever been injured. I take that as a sign we are not completely stupid!

Here is the question: I live around Kansas City now, and a few years back, I hired a fellow to take down some trees that were too close to my house and the electrical feed for my comfort. Nice fellow. We had a couple of tricky situations and he had me pull a bull rope (rigging) with my tractor. He had about a 7/8" or maybe 3/4" rope. It was perfect, far better than the cables or chains I have used in the past, since it had some stretch.

We could put a fair amount of tension on the tree, and the operator of the tractor did not have to worry about feathering the clutch or pulling too hard.

Fast forward. I cannot find the fellow any more, and moreover, I have to take down some large trees around an old house in western KS. I could not hire someone out there even if I wanted. The tractors out there weight 20k lbs and up and tear chains off in an instant. I need a line that will forgive a jerk here or there. 

What I want is some of that very nice stretchy line this fellow had. He was a climber, used other line for that. This was his pulling line, where the stretch was a good thing.

I've been searching and reading sites for days and I just cannot find the right line. Most of the lines are bragging about their low stretch. I *want* the stretch......

Can someone point me it the right direction?


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## J-a-k-e_044 (Jan 30, 2016)

https://www.baileysonline.com/Arbor...d/Samson-7-8-Stable-Braid-Green-Bull-Rope.axd

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## JeffGu (Jan 30, 2016)

Stable Braid is an all-polyester double braid rope... if you want more stretch and energy absorption, use any of the nylon core double braid rigging ropes... All Gear's _Husky_ or Yale's _Polydyne_ would be good choices.
A polyester 3-strand rope will probably have enough stretch for your needs (it's what I use for pulling trees over). It's very easy to find. Too much stretch, and you start losing your ability to control the load.

All Gear HUSKY
Yale POLYDYNE
Samson TREEMASTER


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## J-a-k-e_044 (Jan 30, 2016)

7/8s might be a little big for your need u could probably get by with 3/4 depends on what your pulling 

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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 31, 2016)

Keep in mind, they are comparing stretch among ropes. A low stretch rope will feel very stretchy compared to chain or cable.


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## cdherman (Jan 31, 2016)

To All. Thanks so much for the replies. I am inclined to get some 3/4" stuff in one of the versions suggested by JeffGu. Its true that we do not need 7/8" or 1" for that matter, in terms of pull. The use is just to get the tree started in the right direction, even if its hanging a few thou in the wrong way. We have a palette fork with a shuttle attached (poor mans bucket truck) on a loader that can get the pull point attached at 15" or so.

Now I really need to learn some knots. No boy scouts out there either....

Again, thanks for the advice. I searched and researched some more today. The various braids and brands started making more sense. In particular, the last post was helpful too. For me, low stretch is indeed "no stretch".... Some of the stuff that I liked in terms of price was bragging about low stretch. Was worried. But its likely true that coming from the world of chain and cable, all rope is stretchy....


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## JRoland (Jan 31, 2016)

As far as what size you'll need, just remember the higher you can get the line in the tree the easier the pull will be.
Also, kind of hard to regulate how much force you're putting on the rope with your 20k lb tractor. 

I would suggest getting a throw line and throw ball and practice setting your rope from the ground. That way you can get your line much higher than 15 feet and won't have to max out your new rope.


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## JRoland (Jan 31, 2016)

For knots, just learn the bowline it will be just fine for this application.


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## Oldmaple (Feb 1, 2016)

Bowline, Running bowline. As mentioned throw lines work great to set the line higher to get more leverage. Throw it through a solid crotch, attach it to the pull line with a few half hitches, pull it through and tie it to the tree. Pull away. Easy. Don't know why everyone doesn't do it.


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## cdherman (Feb 1, 2016)

Does $200 delivered for a 150' hank of 3/4" All Gear Husky sound about right?


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## JeffGu (Feb 1, 2016)

Yep. That's right.


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## Woody912 (Feb 1, 2016)

I pulled one today with 3 chains and a nylon winch strap in the middle. Tensioned it with a tractor then chocked the wheels. Had a fair amount of back lean but weight of the chain plus the stretch pulled it right over


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## cdherman (Feb 1, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> I pulled one today with 3 chains and a nylon winch strap in the middle. Tensioned it with a tractor then chocked the wheels. Had a fair amount of back lean but weight of the chain plus the stretch pulled it right over



Personally, I would never combine ANY kind of chain with any rope with stretch (or even with "no" stretch). Period. You are asking to be beheaded.... if the chain fails (which can happen, period.) you have a heavy object at the end of a rubber band. Which then throws the remaining chain or clevis right back at the anchor point. 

I am learning the proper knots myself just today to make sure that there are no metallic parts in the system. The suggested bowline seems pretty decent, at least for this neophyte....


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## Woody912 (Feb 1, 2016)

cdherman said:


> Personally, I would never combine ANY kind of chain with any rope with stretch (or even with "no" stretch). Period. You are asking to be beheaded.... if the chain fails (which can happen, period.) you have a heavy object at the end of a rubber band. Which then throws the remaining chain or clevis right back at the anchor point.
> 
> I am learning the proper knots myself just today to make sure that there are no metallic parts in the system. The suggested bowline seems pretty decent, at least for this neophyte....



I hear what you are saying but I did not have that much tension on it and I had chains on each end with the strap in the middle. If I was doing much tension I would lay a couple of tarps on the line to dampen the chain if something broke


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 1, 2016)

cdherman said:


> Personally, I would never combine ANY kind of chain with any rope with stretch (or even with "no" stretch). Period. You are asking to be beheaded.... if the chain fails (which can happen, period.) you have a heavy object at the end of a rubber band. Which then throws the remaining chain or clevis right back at the anchor point.
> 
> I am learning the proper knots myself just today to make sure that there are no metallic parts in the system. The suggested bowline seems pretty decent, at least for this neophyte....



Welcome,
https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...=yhs-att-att_001&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001

Jeff


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## JRoland (Feb 1, 2016)

Or go to the App Store on your phone or iPad and get Knots3D. It's $1.99 ( I think) well spent.


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## cdherman (Feb 2, 2016)

Woody912 said:


> I hear what you are saying but I did not have that much tension on it and I had chains on each end with the strap in the middle. If I was doing much tension I would lay a couple of tarps on the line to dampen the chain if something broke



Well, I suppose you have pointed out some methods to reduce the danger. As I said in my first entry, I am not an arborist or really that well acquainted with ropes in general. In the 70's big nylon ropes became popular in "farming America" and lots of them were brought into service. I was in my teens then and those memories don't fade. Suddenly people were getting killed. Me, I just decided to make sure that all metal parts of the link were absent or so over built that they would NEVER fail. A 1" steel screw clevis at the drawbar should suffice up to about 35k I think.

Problem with "if I was doing much tension" in my opinion is that you cannot predict perfectly when that tension might occur. Say you mis-estimate the tree and it decides to drag your truck in the wrong direction. That's bad enough. Might land on a house. But then compound matters when the chain breaks and kills you or a bystander....

Anyhow... I did not show up here to lesson you all about tree felling. Thanks again for the insights.....


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## Matt B (Feb 2, 2016)

Hi, I was in a similar situation. I bought a 3/4 " braided nylon anchor rope and have it used it extensively as a pull rope.

It is designed to stretch a little, take very high loads and was cheap compared to equivalent arborist rope. 

Cheers, Matt.


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 2, 2016)

Keep in mind nylon has a lower melting point than polyester.


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## Matt B (Feb 3, 2016)

Thanks, always sure to avoid friction issues for that very reason.


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 3, 2016)

Just the process of a running bowline tightening under tension applies a lot of friction. I've seen nylon glaze pretty bad just from that. But hey, ya saved fifty bucks.


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## cdherman (Feb 3, 2016)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Just the process of a running bowline tightening under tension applies a lot of friction. I've seen nylon glaze pretty bad just from that. But hey, ya saved fifty bucks.



Not sure about your input. The Husky rope is supposed to be nylon core with a poly outer layer. And for me, the extra stretch of the nylon is a plus.

At the end of the day, if we glaze the ending loop of a rope once in a while, it becomes a shorter rope. But for me, the stretch was more useful. 

Anyhow, thanks all for the input. Rope is in the mail and the trees are still standing.


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## Pelorus (Feb 5, 2016)

The working end of the rope gets more wear and tear than the rest of it irrespective of what knot you use.
My ropes gradually get shorter before they die. People are the same way. They shrink with old age.


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## skygear (Feb 17, 2016)

This is the link for an Arborist book http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_journals/2015/rmrs_2015_berdeen_j001.pdf There are many approved knots and methods in there. I'd suggest browsing over it. Save a copy for reference and the knots are a step by step if I remember correctly in there also.

Myself, I use a 10k winch with ~3/8" synthetic line for my pulling. Haven't found a branch or tree I couldn't wrangle with it. Normally I use a 30k tree saver/ tow strap -> shackle -> FLATLINK Expert -> Winch line. Overtop of the setup I still use some of the winch safety blankets to lower the 'rope' to the ground in an instance of catastrophic failure. Then systematically pull the offending branches away. Might start a cut where i want it to break off and work that way. If It is a whole tree? I still systematically lower the canopy first, then topple it.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 15, 2016)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Just the process of a running bowline tightening under tension applies a lot of friction. I've seen nylon glaze pretty bad just from that. But hey, ya saved fifty bucks.



The "Rope on Rope" contact point of a running bowline is a significant wear point on the working end of your rope. You can mitigate this by inserting a clevis, screw link, or other smooth metal surface at this contact point, preserving the working end of your rope, reducing friction, and stregthening your tie in point. Just be sure the smooth metal link equals or exceeds the working strength of your rope. If you don't have to pull very hard, this might not be significant, but with a 20k tractor you may not have precise control over how hard you are pulling. And, I have been surprised several times when I had to pull a LOT harder than I thought I would, most recently when the top of the tree I was falling got hung up in vines and limbs of neighboring trees.


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