# Popup vs Flat Top?



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

The popup VS flat top thing is still in the air........so I wondered if this could possibly help.....

The green line is a ported MS361 with a popup (I did not port it).

It makes MAX power of 5.028 HP at 10,000 RPM

Here is aMS261 I did with a flat top.



At 10,000 RPM this 50cc saw makes almost as much power as the 60cc saw with a popup at the same RPM......and even more power at every point afterward.

Not trying to cause trouble........I just really believe that flat top pistons will make more power than popups, and think this goes a long ways toward proving it.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just really believe that flat top pistons will make more power than popups


So what is your theory as to why?


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Less disruptive flow from the upper transfer ports across the piston crown.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

IMHO, that does nothing to shed light on this debate. What it does is show how strong a 261 is. No offense intended in this reply.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Less disruptive flow from the upper transfer ports across the piston crown.


Others argue that turbulence is good. I have a very hard time believing that a .035" bump is going to have a significant affect on real world performance. 

I commented earlier today on the only way to put this to rest. I'll go find that post.


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## bryanr2 (Jan 19, 2015)




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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Here it is.



blsnelling said:


> The only way to really test this popup vs cut squishband thing is to take a strong saw with a popup and run it on the dyno. Then replace the piston in that saw with a flattop, cut the squishband to result in the same compression, re-port to the same timing numbers, and re-dyno it. Anything less, and you're testing variables other than popup vs cut squishband. I've built 346s both ways and my popup saw was faster...measurably so.


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## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

Randy what would be your opinion on surgically removing the pimple from an 028 super?


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

IN BEFORE LOCK!!! or before wiggs shows up


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## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not sure what the question is here.


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> I'm not sure what the question is here.



it's not a question. Randy is trolling brad without even meaning to. just go with it


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## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> it's not a question. Randy is trolling brad without even meaning to. just go with it



cool but he might catch something he didn't want on his hook.

Torque is way more important than, "power."


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

i'm gonna go over to SH and get T1 to come give us his input. i feel like it could be valuable here


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## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Who's going to design/fund the camera that will screw into the decomp threads and settle the combustion swirl issue...who can redneck a Go Pro small enough to fit in the decomp space?


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## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said: ↑
The only way to really test this popup vs cut squishband thing is to take a strong saw with a popup and run it on the dyno. Then replace the piston in that saw with a flattop, cut the squishband to result in the same compression, re-port to the same timing numbers, and re-dyno it. Anything less, and you're testing variables other than popup vs cut squishband. I've built 346s both ways and my popup saw was faster...measurably so.


I would agree with this except for one more point. The squish gap would also have to be the same in both.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> cool
> 
> Torque is way more important than, "power."


That's an ambiguous statement. Horsepower a function of both torque and RPMs.


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## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm gonna go over to SH and get T1 to come give us his input. i feel like it could be valuable here



Go get Brush Ape/Harley T or who ever he is this week. 

Randy gets lots of giggle from him too !!!!


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## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Horsepower a function of both torque and RPMs.



One horsepower is 746 Watts. I'm shocked.


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

angelo c said:


> Go get Brush Ape/Harley T or who ever he is this week.
> 
> Randy gets lots of giggle from him too !!!!



it's to late man. old-cats already here. this is just gonna get all serious and such. wait til mudstain mike shows up. all the fun will be sucked right out of this. may as well lock it now


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

i'm not on anyones side. i'm here to back up the opposite of whoever already has the most back up. if i remember the last thread right i'm gonna have to default heavily to backing up brad here today. it's gonna suck cause wiggz really puts on some heavy fire.


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## lwhaples (Jan 19, 2015)

Nice looking graphs.


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## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> it's to late man. old-cats already here. this is just gonna get all serious and such. wait til mudstain mike shows up. all the fun will be sucked right out of this. may as well lock it now



c'mon buddy, we can let the adults talk after dinner and have the kids play in the next room.
we used to do it all the time during the Holidays...the problem starts when the alcohol gets flowin...then the beer muscles kick in


Its NOT 5 o'clock ANYWHERE now !!!!


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## Hedgerow (Jan 19, 2015)

I got an idea as to why you can get away with a pop up in certain instances vs a cut band..
Not that it would be my preferred method, but there is a trend developing here..


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

angelo c said:


> c'mon buddy, we can let the adults talk after dinner and have the kids play in the next room.
> we used to do it all the time during the Holidays...the problem starts when the alcohol gets flowin...then the beer muscles kick in
> 
> 
> Its NOT 5 o'clock ANYWHERE now !!!!



i'm not sure what to say or think. i feel like i'm being motivated somehow


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 19, 2015)

Wiggs gave me some education on the phone last night.


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## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> it's to late man. old-cats already here. this is just gonna get all serious and such. wait til mudstain mike shows up. all the fun will be sucked right out of this. may as well lock it now



Oh and if the fireworks start going all you have to do is drop a few "gratuitous" Boob pics...Boobs always STOP arguing...you cannot argue with boobs....


everybody loves boobs....and the resulting "pop-ups"


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

angelo c said:


> Oh and if the fireworks start going all you have to do is drop a few "gratuitous" Boob pics...Boobs always STOP arguing...you cannot argue with boobs....
> 
> 
> everybody loves boobs....and the resulting "pop-ups"



doesn't boobs get a guy banned here? we should just bribe SS to post a boobs pic under harleyT's username so he can permaban him.


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## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

I've seen some real blowouts started over a pair of boobs.


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## Hedgerow (Jan 19, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Wiggs gave me some education on the phone last night.


And you understood what he was saying?


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 19, 2015)

I dont wanna see any of your pop-up's


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

man it would suck if 08 found this thread right now.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 19, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> And you understood what he was saying?



I had a kentucky to pittsburgh flux capacitor translator embedded into the phone


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## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> doesn't boobs get a guy banned here? we should just bribe SS to post a boobs pic under harleyT's username so he can permaban him.



brilliant !!!

SS is chasing him around like the Coyote chasing the RoadRunner !!! ( you might be too young to remember them days)


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## showrguy (Jan 19, 2015)

i don't think it's a fair/accurate comparison, because the 261 is the only m-tronic saw ........
a damn good m-tronic non the less...
i think a standard 261 would most likely show the some power curve as the others in the 1st graph...

i really hope you guys can stay civil in this discussion, cuz i kinda like both of you ..


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> it's to late man. old-cats already here. this is just gonna get all serious and such. wait til mudstain mike shows up. all the fun will be sucked right out of this. may as well lock it now



You are gunna have to stop making me spit my drink on my computer ............... if you keep this up, it might get expensive for me, I am already on my second screen


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Picture this in your mind......

Think about what happens to the air/fuel mixture as the piston closes the squish area, and that popup starts going up into the combustion chamber.....


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Theory is all good and fine, but real world difference is what matters to me.

Those cases where the exhaust needs to be lowered is an entirely different discussion. I'm speaking directly about flattop vs popup. All port timing and compression the same.


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

showrguy said:


> i don't think it's a fair/accurate comparison, because the 261 is the only m-tronic saw ........
> a damn good m-tronic non the less...
> i think a standard 261 would most likely show the some power curve as the others in the 1st graph...
> 
> i really hope you guys can stay civil in this discussion, cuz i kinda like both of you ..


Well said ............. I agree 100%


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## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Less disruptive flow from the upper transfer ports across the piston crown.


I'm not convinced, but I think it is an interesting question. It seems to me there are two times when an obstruction on the piston top might change important flow. 

The first would be when the transfers open - here the piston in moving downward, significant cylinder volume has opened up, and the exhaust port has just opened (with lots of turbulence from the flow from pressurized exhaust gas blowing out the exhaust port). The transfers will open up to several times the height of any reasonable pop-up or dome. 

In this picture of a (tall) pop-up you posted the other day I can see the wash patterns at the transfer outlets. They look a lot like what I've seen on flat top pistons, but then I don't have much experience. You can see wash on the edge of the pop-up though, so that would say it's being deflected some:




On this domed piston there is no edge to hit, but the other wash pattern is similar:




Anyone have a good picture of a flat piston with wash?

What happens without the obstruction? Those gas flows will meet each other in the middle and be deflected (assuming they are not exactly cancelling), probably upward. 

The second would be near TDC as the air is forced out of the squish band and flows across the top of the piston. The velocity of moving gases will be much higher under this condition, and the pop-up is of similar height as the squish clearance. The gases will be deflected upward anyway - do they get deflected sooner because of the pop-up edge, or do they turn up at the edge of the combustion chamber anyway?


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Picture this in your mind......
> 
> Think about what happens to the air/fuel mixture as the piston closes the squish area, and that popup starts going up into the combustion chamber.....


Doesn't the mix need to go up into the combustion chamber anyway? If the popup is going to deflect anything, it's going to deflect it upwards.


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

You two could argue till Randys cows come home. These kinds of threads just paint both porters in a bad light. January is Randy trolling Brad, last year it was Brad trolling Randy ("Come get some threads") ....................

What trend Hedge ??


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## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

When R&D engineers get into a controversy such as this, they resort to testing devises to find the truth. Tongue wagging is useless!


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Doesn't the mix need to go up into the combustion chamber anyway? If the popup is going to deflect anything, it's going to deflect it upwards.



your sense cannot be understood by all young grasshoppa.  Randy's really push'n it here. his backup hasn't even arrived yet. just remember Randy. i'm so young that i know all and everything. i already have all the answers but i'll just let you guys hash this out. i'll tell you who's right on page 100 in a few hours


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not trolling anyone......

I have no need to prove anything. 

I'm just trying to cut though the confusion and get to something that makes real sense. 

Scott posted yesterday that he cut out to top of the transfer ports on a few saws he did to get an entrance angle that he felt made more power. If entrance angle is so important, is it a good idea to sit an obstruction directly in the flow path?


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

old-cat said:


> When R&D engineers get into a controversy such as this, they resort to testing devises to find the truth. Tongue wagging is useless!



it's about to get all serious up in here


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## Hedgerow (Jan 19, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You two could argue till Randys cows come home. These kinds of threads just paint both porters in a bad light. January is Randy trolling Brad, last year it was Brad trolling Randy ("Come get some threads") ....................
> 
> What trend Hedge ??


Those models that depend on efficient scavenging benefit the most from a flat piston and cut band.. Some models are based more on sheer volume, and will run ok with either, but the best running saws I've had in my hands have had the bands cut and a flat piston.


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## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Picture this in your mind......
> 
> Think about what happens to the air/fuel mixture as the piston closes the squish area, and that popup starts going up into the combustion chamber.....


Cavitation.


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not trolling anyone......
> 
> I have no need to prove anything.
> 
> ...



That's a moving obstruction ......... totally different !
As the cylinder volume changes so does that obstructions effects.
Also that obstruction helps add surface area, and the more surface area you have, the more power you can transmit
Remember the Hemi (both Ford and Mopar) was the only engines to be banned from NASCAR

Randy, I like you, and I like Brad, but you are stirring this thing to a head ............. as has Bradley in the past.

Best for everyone to settle down, no need to prove any point ................ you two are going to be mucho happier when you both stop comparing how far you can each throw a peepee stream


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Cavitation.


What ??
Please explain to me how that works when the piston is compressing the air/fuel mix


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## Big_Wood (Jan 19, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You are gunna have to stop making me spit my drink on my computer ............... if you keep this up, it might get expensive for me, I am already on my second screen



that was another member's nickname for ol'magic 044 mike. i just copied it.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Both Randy and Wiggs have offered to turn a squishband for me in order to test this as I outlined earlier. It would require the cost of a new piston, irreversible changes to the cylinder (which I'm ok with), about $100 in back and forth shipping charges to Chad, and two sessions on the dyno. I've simply not had the ambition to make it happen since I don't really see the need


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## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> What ??


Looking to see who was going to say what first.


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## fordf150 (Jan 19, 2015)

i sent one saw to randy and when i do another one it will go there too but here is food for thought.

what do the manufacturers use? A few domed pistons and lots flat tops. with the money they invest in R&D if a pop-up made more power i think we would see more saws with one from the factory.


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Looking to see who was going to say what first.


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## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

There is something other than power outcome to consider. Squish bands are usually not machined as produced and not precisely square and not completely flat all the way across. So, they really should be machined for maximum squish velocity / minimum squish gap. Therefore it is not economically sensible to machine the piston and cyl. both, plus if a piston has to be replaced in the future there's added expense.


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> i sent one saw to randy and when i do another one it will go there too but here is food for thought.
> 
> what do the manufacturers use? A few domed pistons and lots flat tops. with the money they invest in R&D if a pop-up made more power i think we would see more saws with one from the factory.



A few DOMED pistons yes.

The 028 Super is the only saw I can think of with a popup from the factory......


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Scott posted yesterday that he cut out to top of the transfer ports on a few saws he did to get an entrance angle that he felt made more power. If entrance angle is so important, is it a good idea to sit an obstruction directly in the flow path?


I don't see that as a direct comparison. Again, were only talking about a .035" "obstruction". I don't see this tiny deflection as a problem, especially when it's deflecting the charge upwards, exactly where it needs to go. You're always going to get flow directly across the top of the piston anyway, as it moves up and down past the transfers.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

old-cat said:


> ...plus if a piston has to be replaced in the future there's added expense.


I don't really see this as a deciding factor of which method to use. How often are guys replacing pistons, especially when it wasn't a catastrophic failure? If these were race bikes where the piston was replaced regularly, that might be different. Should one of my customers need a piston, all they have to do is pay for the piston and I'll mod it for free.


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## sunfish (Jan 19, 2015)

Does any of this really matter?


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

What I was driving at when I asked what happened near TDC with a popup is just this. We all agree that tightening the squish is a good thing......the more squish velocity we have, the less chance of detonation. Well the tight squish is doing what it is suppose to do.......then bam.......the popup closes off the path when it passes the squish band and protrudes into the chamber. 

That's the reason you don't see any wash on top of the popup......


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

sunfish said:


> Does any of this really matter?



It does to me.......I wanna do the best job possible with the tools I have.


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## Milkman31 (Jan 19, 2015)

sunfish said:


> Does any of this really matter?


Oh yeah it does!! I'll only feed square hay bales they are better for your cows. Round hay sucks.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> What I was driving at when I asked what happened near TDC with a popup is just this. We all agree that tightening the squish is a good thing......the more squish velocity we have, the less chance of detonation. Well the tight squish is doing what it is suppose to do.......then bam.......the popup closes off the path when it passes the squish band and protrudes into the chamber.
> 
> That's the reason you don't see any wash on top of the popup......


Doesn't the flow of the charge that washes across the piston crown happen way before then? I need to do some more studying on squish velocity and it's travel.


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Time is different.......reason is the same.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Jan 19, 2015)

Flat top pop up debate . I said flat top no I said pop up no I said flat top


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Not saying popups won't work......they will increase compression. 

I'm not OK when people say that they are actually better though. 

There are too many easy to see reasons why they are inferior to stand by saying nothing when someone says that they are a better way to build a performance engine. 

I said I wouldn't say anything bad about you Brad......and I plan to keep my word, but I read where you wrote that popups were not as good as a cut squish band.......then where you said they were as good.......now this morning you are saying they are better.

What do you really think? I'm confused by what you've written.


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I get it now........after reading my post.......I see. 

I'm the one being trolled here.

Forget it. 

Popups Rule


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## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> Torque is way more important than, "power."


Actually torque means nothing. Torque x rpm matters - that is the definition of power.



Mastermind said:


> Picture this in your mind......
> 
> Think about what happens to the air/fuel mixture as the piston closes the squish area, and that popup starts going up into the combustion chamber.....





Mastermind said:


> What I was driving at when I asked what happened near TDC with a popup is just this. We all agree that tightening the squish is a good thing......the more squish velocity we have, the less chance of detonation. Well the tight squish is doing what it is suppose to do.......then bam.......the popup closes off the path when it passes the squish band and protrudes into the chamber.
> 
> That's the reason you don't see any wash on top of the popup......


If you picture a perfectly symmetrical combustion chamber and a flat top piston as the gas is squished out of the band - it is all converging into the center. All of the mass is heading toward the center with equal velocity at the edge where it emerges from the squish band. At that edge it will begin to diverge upward into the combustion chamber, as a higher pressure builds at the center of the piston where the flow converges. How do we know if the pop-up actually changes that? I suspect the flow will turn up to follow the contour of the combustion chamber anyway, and that as long as the pop-up edge is not too close to the squish band edge it won't matter - but that is just my guess.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Not saying popups won't work......they will increase compression.
> 
> I'm not OK when people say that they are actually better though.
> 
> ...





Mastermind said:


> I get it now........after reading my post.......I see.
> 
> I'm the one being trolled here.
> 
> ...


Say what? I'm confused. I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference in the real world. The only times I see it as an advantage is when you need to lower the exhaust port, not common IMHO, or you need more compression than can be had with a popup, again not common IMHO.


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## Pud (Jan 19, 2015)

Hows the first graph i know 461's are a strong saw but i didnt think 660 strong


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## walexa07 (Jan 19, 2015)

Subscribed. As long as this thread remains civil and no mud slinging starts, I think this could turn out to be a good thread. I for one, would love to see the dyno results of the same saw/same porting/etc. as Brad is suggesting needs to be performed. It's interesting that the Dan Henry 346xp is so highly regarded and it has a popup. Personally (nothing against Brad at all - I have alot of respect for that guy!) I prefer cut squish band just for simplicity in future piston changes. I say this because what if 10 years later, the porter of a saw (with a popup) is no longer in business, etc., and I need another piston. Then I've got to find someone to try and match the original, and they may not even want to mess with it since it wasn't their work to begin with. 

Waylan


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## TK (Jan 19, 2015)

The proper way to test flat top vs. popup isn't to have the engine ported to the exact same timing numbers etc. Shoot for the same compression, but port the engine so it makes best power in either configuration. Different engines get ported differently due to the design involved. Do the best porting for each setup at the same compression, see how the power compares. That will tell you which method works best. It's a whole method, not just piston vs. piston.


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## Nitroman (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> Torque is way more important than, "power."



Do you really believe that? Would you take an old John Deere to a bank robbery, or an F1 car?


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## wyk (Jan 19, 2015)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Flat top pop up debate . I said flat top no I said pop up no I said flat top




I just spent 20 minutes watching girl fights on youtube. It was glorious.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

TK said:


> The proper way to test flat top vs. popup isn't to have the engine ported to the exact same timing numbers etc. Shoot for the same compression, but port the engine so it makes best power in either configuration. Different engines get ported differently due to the design involved. Do the best porting for each setup at the same compression, see how the power compares. That will tell you which method works best. It's a whole method, not just piston vs. piston.


Then you're testing an entire build philosophy and not popups. You still haven't settled this argument. You're simply showed who can build a stronger saw.


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Welp........it can't be settled.

I'll stop saying cut squish is better if you stop saying it ain't.

Deal?


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## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

reinderr said:


> I just spent 20 minutes watching girl fights on youtube. It was glorious.


They sure was Installin some pop ups on each others heads.


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Welp........it can't be settled.
> 
> I'll stop saying cut squish is better if you stop saying it ain't.
> 
> Deal?


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## Weesa20 (Jan 19, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> I say this because what if 10 years later, the porter of a saw (with a popup) is no longer in business, etc., and I need another piston. Then I've got to find someone to try and match the original, and they may not even want to mess with it since it wasn't their work to begin with.
> 
> Waylan



This is a great real world argument for cutting squish. As long as I can get a piston for the saw, I can get back to work. No waiting for a custom builder to have the time ( if they are still around) to fab a piston. I wonder how a saw built for a pop-up would run with a non- pop-up.


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## Nitroman (Jan 19, 2015)

Okay, we have to hire someone who specializes in Schlieren photography to make a video of the gases leaving a port over a flat piston then a popped piston. This will expose the shock wave flow and all will see. So there. Now start looking in your Yellow Pages (if anyone knows how to use one of those anymore).


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## TK (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Then you're testing an entire build philosophy and not popups. You still haven't settled this argument. You're simply showed who can build a stronger saw.



How is it not settled? The piston when turned for a pop-up vs. a squish band cut is not an interchangeable idea. The argument is not just the piston. It's the method. And it's not who can build a stronger saw, that is settled by two different goobs porting the same model saw in a build-off.


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Give it up Tom.......


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## wigglesworth (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Both Randy and Wiggs have offered to turn a squishband for me in order to test this as I outlined earlier. It would require the cost of a new piston, irreversible changes to the cylinder (which I'm ok with), about $100 in back and forth shipping charges to Chad, and two sessions on the dyno. I've simply not had the ambition to make it happen since I don't really see the need



What's funny is your lathe is about 10 times the lathe as both mine and Randy's....

You should learn to use it....


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## Moparmyway (Jan 19, 2015)

Brad, Wiggs has a point here ............ you could offer both (pop-up and squish band cut) to customers, allowing them to decide


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## Nitroman (Jan 19, 2015)

These people can answer the question: http://www.flovizinc.com/index.html

So quit the bickering. If you REALLY want an answer...


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## Hedgerow (Jan 19, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> What's funny is your lathe is about 10 times the lathe as both mine and Randy's....
> 
> You should learn to use it....


Cut me a squish band, put it on a 372, and send it to me...

But I don't want a lathe..
One more thing for me to have to walk around in the shop..


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## Tractorsaw1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Do you guys overcut the bore or stay off it a little when cutting the squish? Seems like its gonna be kinda tough to get it perfectly centered so the rings can ride up the bore farther.


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## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Why do you care so much? That's the real question.


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## weedkilla (Jan 19, 2015)

As an incredibly amateur machinist I can conclusively say pop ups are better. 
I can do a pop up in 5 minutes in a 3 jaw chuck. 
Cutting a squish band means making a plate to mount the cylinder, getting some sort of long nosed gauge down into the bore and then getting the damn thing spinning square in a mongrel bloody 4 jaw chuck. My head aches a little just thinking about it. 
I'd just about pay the cost of porting, just to not have to set up for this for one cylinder. 
To do this for you either want to be doing a lot of saws to make it worthwhile or be a confident and capable machinist.


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## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I can set up and cut a squish band in 30 - 40 minutes.......it ain't rocket surgery.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Welp........it can't be settled.
> 
> I'll stop saying cut squish is better if you stop saying it ain't.
> 
> Deal?



Do we have a deal?


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I can set up and cut a squish band in 30 - 40 minutes.......it ain't rocket surgery.


That's my point. My lathe can sit for months without being used sometimes. 
You've developed skills through practice, built/bought tooling.... Without that time investment it's a frustrating job. And doing it badly eats a cylinder that makes it uneconomical.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not the one here desperately trying to prove that my methods are best and yours are not. You keep bringing the argument to me, so I keep answering. It's *not* been my contention that popups are better than cutting the squishband, but rather that *it's* *simply not necessary*. I simply don't understand why you're so desperate that everyone agree with you, and so desperate to prove me wrong. If you're that confident in your methodology, then fine. *I don't have to be your enemy just because I don't agree and do things differently. * The real issue here is not about a difference in saw building theory, it's about your need to be right and need to convince everyone else as well.


----------



## super3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Factory run in,


----------



## Nitroman (Jan 19, 2015)

super3 said:


> Factory run in,
> 
> 
> View attachment 396129



That is a beautiful photo of the flow out the ports. You can even see there is some uneveness in the flow from the left to the right sides.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I'm not the one here desperately trying to prove that my methods are best and yours are not. You keep bringing the argument to me, so I keep answering. It's *not* been my contention that popups are better than cutting the squishband, but rather that *it's* *simply not necessary*. I simply don't understand why you're so desperate that everyone agree with you, and so desperate to prove me wrong. If you're that confident in your methodology, then fine. *I don't have to be your enemy just because I don't agree and do things differently. * The real issue here is not about a difference in saw building theory, it's about your need to be right and need to convince everyone else as well.



So, we do not have a deal?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Brad you do realize that you are posting in my thread........so how in the heck did I bring "the fight to you"????? 

A year ago you said one thing.......then another......then today yet another.

The fact is that it takes longer.......time you are not willing to spend.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

We don't need a deal. You need to quit trying to control both me and everyone else. Like I told you last week, when you let this dog die, it won't be a problem.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

If it doesn't matter then why have you had me cut the squish in several of your personal saws?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I made a post this morning that brought this all back up........

You said a 346 was better with a popup........end of story.......


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Brad you do realize that you are posting in my thread........so how in the heck did I bring "the fight to you"?????


Don't try to play me for a fool, or the whole forum for that matter. You brought this to me when you started the thread. Don't try to hide behind that thinly veiled innocent act.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Stop posting your opinions as though they were facts.......and I'll stop countering.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

LMAO. 

I troll, you take the bait. 

Why is this so important to YOU?????


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I made a post this morning that brought this all back up........
> 
> You said a 346 was better with a popup........end of story.......


And that bothered you so badly why? How's that so different than you saying it isn't? The difference is that you'll do anything to prove you're the best. You're ego gets the better of you every time.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Stop posting your opinions as though they were facts.......and I'll stop countering.


Look in the mirror.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Stop posting your opinions as though they were facts.......and I'll stop countering.



Do we have a deal??????


----------



## rob066 (Jan 19, 2015)

We will make an a Arboristsite version of the TV program Deal or no Deal.


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 19, 2015)

This thread should be ****canned at this point.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> If it doesn't matter then why have you had me cut the squish in several of your personal saws?


I had you cut that 346. My saw with a popup was measurably faster. My newest 346 got another popup for that very reason.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

So no deal?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> *I had you cut that 346. * My saw with a popup was measurably faster. My newest 346 got another popup for that very reason.



And several other of your saws......


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> LMAO.
> 
> I troll, you take the bait.
> 
> Why is this so important to YOU?????


Because you're constantly telling everyone how great you are and inferior I am. You stop that behavior and this will magically vanish.


----------



## Tor R (Jan 19, 2015)

Free float of hormone pills over there nowadays
Personaly I prefer lucky pills......


----------



## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

Naw let them fight it out a while.i'll start my thread about my theory of cavatation.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> And several other of your saws......


Name them.


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## Ironworker (Jan 19, 2015)

I have a bunch of logs about 12-16", why don't each of yous send me a ported 50cc saw and let me be the judge. Actually I already have a 346 by Randy, so maybe you can send me one Brad.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Nitroman said:


> These people can answer the question: http://www.flovizinc.com/index.html
> 
> So quit the bickering. If you REALLY want an answer...



Perfect...that group sounds like a bunch of hippies living in a commune, smokin big budds "testing" flow dynamics of a cylinder where the combustible fuel is "Maui Wowie" .... 

Do hippies run ported saws ?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

390XP, and and 395XP......

The 346 I cut for you was a crappy AM jug the you raised to transfers too far in...


----------



## Tor R (Jan 19, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Naw let them fight it out a while.i'll start my thread about my theory of cavatation.


i think I will tripple the dose of my happy pill, maybe I will see the light and make a master thread!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not a great saw builder......I'm OK.

Treemonkey, Dennis Cahoon,Cliff Helsel, Jeremy Barger, Durand, The Hutton Bros......etc.....

They are all probably better than I am.

I've never said I was great........


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I think you can build a great running saw Brad.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Can someone pass me a big helping of 

BOOBs ????


We need some. BOOBS ....

Make them covered somewhat and tasteful......BUT BIG !!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

You and I.......we just clash. 

I'm proposing that we find a way to stop clashing.


----------



## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

I'd bet a domed piston is better than either - too much trouble to do I guess.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Do we have a deal?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Here ya go.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

jughead500 said:


>



I see what you did there.....

I like the way she holds my hose...or is it Jose ???


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I'd bet a domed piston is better than either - too much trouble to do I guess.


I went through an 028 super that was domed... It was doomed by the time I got done with it...


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> 390XP, and and 395XP......
> 
> The 346 I cut for you was a crappy AM jug the you raised to transfers too far in...


AM 346 jug. That was a test subject. 
390 jug? Perhaps the 385 jug I had bored out? I sold that saw. It was a strong saw but I prefer a straight up 390XP
395XP. I don't recall that one. I've had two. One had a popup, the other only had the squishband tightened.
My current 390XP is only saw I have with a cut squishband, and I believe Nik did it. So, to insinuate that I've had multiple experiences to suggest that cutting a squishband is better, and that I simply don't want to take the time to do it, is simply wrong.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I think you can build a great running saw Brad.


As can you. You know it, I know it, the forum knows it. So why are you so worried about me having a difference of opinion? Let your work and your saws speak for themselves. I don't need your approval to have confidence in what I do, and you don't need my approval to have confidence in what you do.



Mastermind said:


> You and I.......we just clash.
> 
> I'm proposing that we find a way to stop clashing.


I've already mentioned how that will happen. I welcome that day!


----------



## KG441c (Jan 19, 2015)

jughead500 said:


>


Gosh dang man!! I cant believe you posted that!! This is somebodies wife!!! Lol!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> AM 346 jug. That was a test subject.
> 390 jug? Perhaps the 385 jug I had bored out? I sold that saw. It was a strong saw but I prefer a straight up 390XP
> 395XP. I don't recall that one. I've had two. One had a popup, the other only had the squishband tightened.
> My current 390XP is only saw I have with a cut squishband, and I believe Nik did it. So, to insinuate that I've had multiple experiences to suggest that cutting a squishband is better, and that I simply don't want to take the time to do it, is simply wrong.



My apologies......I get carried away you know. 

How about the deal? 

I'll stop saying popups suck.......you stop talking them up. 

It's pretty simple.


----------



## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

Yeap.angelo was askin for it and the pain meds made me do it before 08 did.


----------



## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Yeap.angelo was askin for it and the pain meds made me do it before 08 did.



Sooo HAWT !!!!

But not exactly what I was looking fer....


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Randy, I've told you how *desperately* I want this crap to stop. I don't care if you think popups suck. I really, really don't. That in and of itself doesn't bother me. I really don't care if *some *(*  *) of your saws are better than mine. I really, really don't. I'm going to state my opinions, as are you. Don't take it personal when they don't agree. And please stop planting seeds and insinuating that I'm inferior, simply because you don't agree with how I accomplish something. It often feels as if that's your primary marketing strategy. I think you're so convinced that your ways are better, that you can't see anything else. I can see where a cut squishband is needed in some cases. I use them in a 660 for that very reason. It's a tool. I can see where 40° of case compression is needed in some cases, it's an approach. But when you go around insinuating that I'm cheating my customers because I don't do it just like you do, you're wrong. That's where the problem comes from. I take no joy in fighting with you. Like I've said before, you'll be as much of a friend to me as you'll let yourself. Peace?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 19, 2015)

Please pass the Tums. I need some! How about a valium while you're at it, lol  I'm going to go work on getting my Solo Twin parts shipped.


----------



## Haywire Haywood (Jan 19, 2015)

Why don't both of you just put the other on ignore and leave it that way. Problem solved. Seems logical, no?


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 19, 2015)

To me it don't matter who's right and who's wrong. I could only form a decision based on others opinions and experiences.

I'm a borderline competent mechanic and can understand when there is an issue with a saw and diagnose it.

Could I actually do some R&D on my own or develop something at this point in time without someone close by teaching, I doubt it.

What all this in this thread does say about these two is that they have passion in what they do and an interest in building the best saw possible.


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## barneyrb (Jan 19, 2015)

Well, I don't have a dog in this hunt and probably should stay out or this but here goes. A number of years ago when I was real heavy into car engines (specifically 383 chebbys for a claimer class dirt track) I read an indepth article written by this old country boy named Smokey Yunick. His theory on making the maximum hp from an engine was make the combustion chamber as small as possible and use a dished piston if possible. His theory was with a dished piston all the energy was directed to the center of the piston and in a straight downward force on the rod. He went on to explain that any energy directed towards the edge of the piston was not utilized as well because that energy was actually trying to turn the piston sideways in the bore. Take it for what it's worth but I didn't write the article.

I'll bow out and let the festivities continue.


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## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> That's an ambiguous statement. Horsepower a function of both torque and RPMs.





Chris-PA said:


> Actually torque means nothing. Torque x rpm matters - that is the definition of power.



http://www.wired.com/2014/04/don-garlits-electric-dragster/

You guys are so far behind the 8 Ball, I'm switching to table tennis.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Hello Brush Ape.


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 19, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


> To me it don't matter who's right and who's wrong. I could only form a decision based on others opinions and experiences.
> 
> I'm a borderline competent mechanic and can understand when there is an issue with a saw and diagnose it.
> 
> ...


Oh, and by the way....

If someone wants to build a pop up and a cut squish band and send it over to Chad I'll supply the pistons!


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## SquareFile (Jan 19, 2015)

Who's the fortunate owner of the 346xp test subject?


----------



## barneyrb (Jan 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Actually torque means nothing. Torque x rpm matters - that is the definition of power.



Actually the formula is HP=TQ x RPM/5252


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 19, 2015)

Just sold these yesterday.

I'm going to ship em separate....


Whichever one gets there first will prove which ones faster.


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## jughead500 (Jan 19, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


>


Plmcrzy and brush ape were ridin fence and rode upon that.both of them hollered my turn and got off their horses and stuck their head in the fence.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

barneyrb said:


> Actually the formula is HP=TQ x RPM/5252


Yes, Power = Torque x rpm x a Constant. Which changes nothing.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 19, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> What's funny is your lathe is about 10 times the lathe as both mine and Randy's....
> 
> You should learn to use it....



I'd take yours any day.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> I'd take yours any day.



Go away troll.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 19, 2015)

I have seen that anyone can make a stock saw into a turd...


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Go away troll.



I can't see your posts, I've got you and the other idiot on ignore.


----------



## DSS (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You and I.......we just clash.
> 
> I'm proposing that we find a way to stop clashing.


Never happen. Your heads too ****ing hard and he'd never let it go anyway.

And those, my friends, are proven facts.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 19, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


> Oh, and by the way....
> 
> If someone wants to build a pop up and a cut squish band and send it over to Chad I'll supply the pistons!



And I will pay the winner of this build-off 100 Trillon dollars! 



  Zimbabwe dollars of course... _In Brush Ape we trust!_


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## DSS (Jan 19, 2015)

Duane(Pa) said:


> View attachment 396174


Best poast in this whole damn thread


----------



## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

Don Garlits, the Master engine builder


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

barneyrb said:


> Well, I don't have a dog in this hunt and probably should stay out or this but here goes. A number of years ago when I was real heavy into car engines (specifically 383 chebbys for a claimer class dirt track) I read an indepth article written by this old country boy named Smokey Yunick. His theory on making the maximum hp from an engine was make the combustion chamber as small as possible and use a dished piston if possible. His theory was with a dished piston all the energy was directed to the center of the piston and in a straight downward force on the rod. He went on to explain that any energy directed towards the edge of the piston was not utilized as well because that energy was actually trying to turn the piston sideways in the bore. Take it for what it's worth but I didn't write the article.
> 
> I'll bow out and let the festivities continue.



Wonder how much theory actually applies here in 2 strokes. Having the valves(variable) directly overhead allows for some greater control of the combustion process (then fixed ports). 
I wonder how much the gas/oil alone changes the "theory". Back in the day water injection was all the rage.


----------



## Weesa20 (Jan 19, 2015)

JeremiahJohnson said:


>




I think red is the winner...


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Hello Brush Ape.


You can "name that tune" in 13 posts ?(actually name that Ape)


Damn Randy you are good...


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

angelo c said:


> Back in the day water injection was all the rage.


I built one for my '66 Mustang back in High School 'cause I couldn't afford premium gas!


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)

Even if you have a cut squish band does not mean a piston is a direct replacement. The Oem piston I bought for the 066 was .017 lower than original OEM piston. 
Just sayin. 
Now, I want to see a saw that has a cut squish and a pop up! Any takers


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I built one for my '66 Mustang back in High School 'cause I couldn't afford premium gas!



What would you give to have that ride back ?


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 19, 2015)

wonder how long till this thread disappears


----------



## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Now, I want to see a saw that has a cut squish and a pop up! Any takers


In my view that would work GREAT. IF you only cut enough off the squish band to make it square.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jan 19, 2015)

DSS said:


> Best poast in this whole damn thread


I was going to go ala mode but youn's phukers don't deserve it.......


----------



## DSS (Jan 19, 2015)

Duane(Pa) said:


> I was going to go ala mode but youn's phukers don't deserve it.......


Great. The ice cream Nazi is here.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)

old-cat said:


> In my view that would work GREAT. IF you only cut enough off the squish band to make it square.


.020 off the squish, .020 pop up, .040 off the base if squish is already good. It could be a snellermonkied saw


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Now, I want to see a saw that has a cut squish and a pop up! Any takers


First gen 460 big bore. I had .025 cut from the chamber and .030 on the piston with .030 squish at the extreme edge of free porting. The darn thing still only had 185 psi compression!. If I could find another first gen big bore piston I would cut the chamber another .010-.020 and no pop up. It ran decent though, not stellar. I just enjoy trying different things and finding how well it works.


----------



## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> .020 off the squish, .020 pop up, .040 off the base if squish is already good. It could be a snellermonkied saw


The ONLY reason I could see any sense in doing that is so you wouldn't have to upset the port timing as much. So you would only take .005 to .010" max off the squish band.
But that way of upping the compression is more work/expense.


----------



## jsmith40004 (Jan 19, 2015)

I vote for a true dome and a hemi chamber with center plug. 

I agree with Randy, the flat roof has to be less turbulence. 

Question is-does it matter in a chainsaw? Probably not. 

James


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

Milkman31 said:


> Oh yeah it does!! I'll only feed square hay bales they are better for your cows. Round hay sucks.


They deserve a square meal


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)

old-cat said:


> The ONLY reason I could see any sense in doing that is so you wouldn't have to upset the port timing as much. So you would only take .005 to .010" max off the squish band.
> But that way of upping the compression is more work/expense.


I would do it just in spiet of this pi$$ing match and I bet it would run damn fine.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 19, 2015)

All this talk about food on a suck ass thread is making me hungry. Who is up for take-out tonight?


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 19, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> I'd take yours any day.



Agreed. Older the better



Moparmyway said:


> Brad, Wiggs has a point here ............ you could offer both (pop-up and squish band cut) to customers, allowing them to decide



That's a great idea!

The customer is always right...


----------



## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I would do it just in spiet of this pi$$ing match and I bet it would run damn fine.


I sincerely wish someone would build a saw both ways and put them on Chad's dyno. Maybe the cat and dog would go lay down!


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

angelo c said:


> What would you give to have that ride back ?


Depends on if I would have to take the rust with it!


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)

old-cat said:


> I sincerely wish someone would build a saw both ways and put them on Chad's dyno. Maybe the cat and dog would go lay down!


I seriously think that would make things worse, I personally think they should stick to what was said when chad first started with the dyno. That they were not going to compare one saw builder to another.


----------



## old-cat (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I seriously think that would make things worse, I personally think they should stick to what was said when chad first started with the dyno. That they were not going to compare one saw builder to another.


You're right if the saws were built by either of them, BUT some other pro builder could build 2 saws both ways then test them.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## TK (Jan 19, 2015)

Who in their right mind would do that?


----------



## cowroy (Jan 19, 2015)

Not trying to change the subject, but what was the thinking behind this piston? I'd really like to know?Belongs to a Dolmar 114


----------



## windthrown (Jan 19, 2015)

Oh no... now we have a pop-down piston to add to the argument!


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jan 19, 2015)

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130333557

Power Cell BABY!!!!!!!

http://www.mahle.com/mahle/en/produ...les/piston-systems/piston-assemblies-and-pcu/


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)

old-cat said:


> You're right if the saws were built by either of them, BUT some other pro builder could build 2 saws both ways then test them.


I believe it would still be seen as a direct reflection of Brad's or Randy's work


----------



## MCW (Jan 19, 2015)

Saw building on this site is no longer about who builds a good saw but who markets themselves better. I'm certain that some builders spend more time marketing than actually building unless all of a sudden we have had 40 hour days arrive without me knowing.


----------



## procarbine2k1 (Jan 19, 2015)

MCW said:


> Saw building on this site is no longer about who builds a good saw but who markets themselves better. I'm certain that some builders spend more time marketing than actually building unless all of a sudden we have had 40 hour days arrive without me knowing.



Without a doubt, this is the most accurate post I have read on Arboristsite..... I am guessing there are a whole lot of other folks that are seeing it too.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

MCW said:


> Saw building on this site is no longer about who builds a good saw but who markets themselves better. I'm certain that some builders spend more time marketing than actually building unless all of a sudden we have had 40 hour days arrive without me knowing.



That's the most true post in this crappy thread. Why does anyone need 15 of the same morons fanning the flames or someone habitually creating shill accounts from croatia to shore up one guy over another. Then they can't keep up then lime disease. Whatever. Good work speaks for itself and we should all be pitching in instead to keep this reservoir of knowledge from leaking into the abyss. Instead it is shave the piston or shave the tube. I've done both. The main dudes shave tube but, they are too old to produce in the living environment. Plus run a 8 HP saw 45' up in a tree and let's see how prepared you freaks are.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


>



Yup that's right if you can't take ticks and forge ahead, stay out the woods. I'm tired of the pussyfoot lime disease belly ache. I've broke more greens in than R.J. Reynold's Menthol and tired of the whining.

Where bark meets skin only Brush Apes win. See ya in September.


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> Yup that's right if you can't take ticks and forge ahead, stay out the woods. I'm tired of the pussyfoot lime disease belly ache. I've broke more greens in than R.J. Reynold's Menthol and tired of the whining.
> 
> Where bark meets skin only Brush Apes win. See ya in September.



You are a farkwit.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Depends on if I would have to take the rust with it!


Of course not buddy....we're dreaming here...

My big regret was not buying a '59 Eldo baritz triple white drop top in reading back in the mid eighty's. No kidding. Beautiful shape, thing was like 27' of pure style. This was wayyyy before they started turning big money on the block.
asking price was $8900
I had the money but no place to store the car. My corvette was in the garage at the time. Didn't have the room.
The only good thing is the corvette is still in the garage.


----------



## chadihman (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> cool but he might catch something he didn't want on his hook.
> 
> Torque is way more important than, "power."


??? Cant get horse power without torque.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

chadihman said:


> ??? Cant get horse power without torque.


But you can have all the torque you want and still produce no power.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

chadihman said:


> ??? Cant get horse power without torque.





Chris-PA said:


> But you can have all the torque you want and still produce no power.



Neither one of y'all will put any sticks on the dirt 'til you learn to sharpen chain.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> Yup that's right if you can't take ticks and forge ahead, stay out the woods. I'm tired of the pussyfoot lime disease belly ache. I've broke more greens in than R.J. Reynold's Menthol and tired of the whining.
> 
> Where bark meets skin only Brush Apes win. See ya in September.


You keep tack of all your names? I'm losin track!


----------



## PULLINmyPOULAN (Jan 19, 2015)




----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 19, 2015)

PULLINmyPOULAN said:


>


Yup, you can always recognize Brush Ape no matter the name.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 19, 2015)

Brushape whatever became of the chain shapening stand?


----------



## chadihman (Jan 19, 2015)

Here's what I'd love to know. 10,000 rpms = the piston going up and down 166 times a second. How does that friggen thing have time to flow anything?
15,000 rpms is 250 times a second.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Yup, you can always recognize Brush Ape no matter the name.




Should be obvious with your lips _epoxied_ to his ass.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> Should be obvious with your lips _epoxied_ to his ass.


That's gonna leave a mark


----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> That's gonna leave a mark


 

See you homos in September.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Here's what I'd love to know. 10,000 rpms = the piston going up and down 166 times a second. How does that friggen thing have time to flow anything?
> 15,000 rpms is 250 times a second.



The shorter the stroke the slower the piston velocity. Depending on the stroke, a saw turning 15,000 rpm may actually have a slower moving piston, than say a small block 350 at a much lower rpm.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> See you homos in September.


**** you *******


----------



## KG441c (Jan 19, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The shorter the stroke the slower the piston velocity. Depending on the stroke, a saw turning 15,000 rpm may actually have a slower moving piston, than say a small block 350 at a much lower rpm.


So by cutting the squish and base arent u shortening the effective stroke of the piston?


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

KG441c said:


> So by cutting the squish and base arent u shortening the effective stroke of the piston?


Not when you adjust port height and time area


----------



## KG441c (Jan 19, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> **** you *******


I got the 1st 4* but whats the last 7???? Lmao!! A few more letters needed


----------



## KG441c (Jan 19, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Not when you adjust port height and time area


So after adjusting it will be the same as starting point?


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> That's gonna leave a mark



A skid mark.....that is. !!!!!


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

KG441c said:


> So by cutting the squish and base arent u shortening the effective stroke of the piston?



The stroke is dependent on the throw of the crank. All you're doing is changing port timing/duration.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

KG441c said:


> So after adjusting it will be the same as starting point?


Not necessarily. It will be wherever the builder puts it to maximize output


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm gonna go ahead with my end of the "deal"......

No more smack talk about popops from me. 

I'll try my best to check that sort of talk at the door. 

Lot's of ways to skin a cat..........poor cat. 

Oh Brush Ape......

I doubt you'll be welcome in September. No one likes an ass hole.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 19, 2015)

what and were is september?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna go ahead with my end of the "deal"......
> 
> No more smack talk about popops from me.
> 
> ...



Good!!! You and Brad are both getting on my last nerve. To be honest I think the both of you need to quit posting for a few days, as it seems neither of you have any self control. It's getting old, even to those you may call friends.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I lost a lot of respect for you a few weeks ago Andre. I really could give two ****s less what you think.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 19, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> what and were is september?


Brush ape is climbing up ice mans ass followed by harley T in a great big circle jerk off fun...

Wanna come ???

It's called a "get up yer ass together"


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

Randy I'm not going to go in circles with you, you know very well what I said in that thread was to simply get it locked. If you took what I said there as reality you need help.


----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Why does brushape's crack taste like bleach?.....
> 
> I doubt you'll be welcome in September.



OK reckon y'all called it off. Wise reply (unless you wanted to learn something).

210 is not that high when you know how to ride. Sorry Wiggs. lol

If ya got some decent gloves, though sparring lessons are still on the table. Seem like a revolving door for that brutality and scuba lessons at the quarry but application is accepted. Good luck with the long bar run, Fluffy.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 19, 2015)

TK said:


> The proper way to test flat top vs. popup isn't to have the engine ported to the exact same timing numbers etc. Shoot for the same compression, but port the engine so it makes best power in either configuration. Different engines get ported differently due to the design involved. Do the best porting for each setup at the same compression, see how the power compares. That will tell you which method works best. It's a whole method, not just piston vs. piston.



i'm way late and need to catch up, but but I can get more compression from a cut squish then a popup. it's one reason why it's a better choice


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> OK reckon y'all called it off. Wise reply (unless you wanted to learn something).
> 
> 210 is not that high when you know how to ride. Sorry Wiggs. lol
> 
> If ya got some decent gloves, though sparring lessons are still on the table. Seem like a revolving door for that brutality and scuba lessons at the quarry but application is accepted. Good luck with the long bar run, Fluffy.


why aren't you banned yet?


----------



## Mattyo (Jan 19, 2015)

I just read the whole thread...let me offer a dentist point of view...

My "competition" in the dental world isn't the myriad of other dentists in town (there are a LOT of them in my town, many with lower prices). My actual competition is every other product on the planet that people deem more important than dental work ...Prada, Mercedes, vacations in the Bahama's.... etc. As consumers we are bombarded with products day in and day out that steals our attention away from what we (should) truly value. After being on this site for a while, I don't think any of the builders here are in "competition" with one another. Rather, the builders are part of a community of sawyers sharing knowledge, for the benefit of all. What MM offers, others might not want, what Brad offers, others do want....and vice versa. Frankly, when everyone plays together on the same team, the whole community wins. Far as I can see, the builders here likely have more work than they know what to do with, which is awesome! I think every member on this site needs to feel fortunate that they are actually part of something larger than themselves, and that giving up a Friday night to port a saw isn't a bad thing...in fact, its likely WAY more productive than what most people are doing anway. 

At this point, I think there needs to be some other builder that can play with popups and squish bands all in house, other than MM or Brad...and see what they come up with. I trust that if its proven that popups are easier, and cheap and yield the same results, that more people would be doing them, AND along the same vein, that if flat tops and cut squish bands truly are "the best" way to do it...and it yields the most powerful saw (best product), then it'll become more common as well. 

Just my 2cents.... thanks for the space.


----------



## rdtreewalker (Jan 19, 2015)

The fairest way I think to test this is stupid simple. If the only thing that needs to be tested is flat top vs pop up you only should need 1 piston. Build the saw with a pop up test it, and then simply cut the pop up off making the piston flat. Timing shouldn't change from what I'm being told.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 19, 2015)

Esh... the Brush Ape succubus again. I figured it was him again, but this time he admitted it before I could post about it.

BAN IT! Again... the BA iggy list grows and grows...


----------



## Iceman (Jan 19, 2015)

Mattyo said:


> I just read the whole thread...let me offer a dentist point of view...
> 
> My "competition" in the dental world isn't the myriad of other dentists in town (there are a LOT of them in my town, many with lower prices). My actual competition is every other product on the planet that people deem more important than dental work ...Prada, Mercedes, vacations in the Bahama's.... etc. As consumers we are bombarded with products day in and day out that steals our attention away from what we (should) truly value. After being on this site for a while, I don't think any of the builders here are in "competition" with one another. Rather, the builders are part of a community of sawyers sharing knowledge, for the benefit of all. What MM offers, others might not want, what Brad offers, others do want....and vice versa. Frankly, when everyone plays together on the same team, the whole community wins. Far as I can see, the builders here likely have more work than they know what to do with, which is awesome! I think every member on this site needs to feel fortunate that they are actually part of something larger than themselves, and that giving up a Friday night to port a saw isn't a bad thing...in fact, its likely WAY more productive than what most people are doing anway.
> 
> ...





That's eloquent, YO but dentists aren't prime donne


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 19, 2015)

GTFO


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 19, 2015)

Iceman said:


> See you homos in September.


Nope, I don't think so. Yer history until you sign back up again, Dude.. do you have a life? If not get one.


----------



## Mattyo (Jan 19, 2015)

whats prime donne? i'm not up on lingo....


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 19, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> why aren't you banned yet?


He is.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Randy I'm not going to go in circles with you, you know very well what I said in that thread was to simply get it locked. If you took what I said there as reality you need help.



You were probably drunk. 

If it was just to "get the thread locked" you would not have edited your post jackass. 

I might talk **** to you....or about you......but I'll never talk **** about your family. 

Like I said........I have no respect for your kind.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mattyo said:


> whats prime donne? i'm not up on lingo....


he don't ever make sense........ignore it.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You were probably drunk.
> 
> If it was just to "get the thread locked" you would not have edited your post jackass.
> 
> ...



I didn't edit my posts, maybe the big guy did? Haven't had a drink in some time now.

What exactly is my kind?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not dicking around with you either.....

Leave it be.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I seriously think that would make things worse, I personally think they should stick to what was said when chad first started with the dyno. That they were not going to compare one saw builder to another.


That's right, Randy said if that happened, the individual who sent the saw will never have another saw ported by him.


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 19, 2015)

This thread is isn't doing anything but go down hill. At least brush ape is gone


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not dicking around with you either.....
> 
> Leave it be.



Than quit positing.


Mastermind said:


> I'm not dicking around with you either.....
> 
> Leave it be.



I will!! but this is still an open site you're not king here, or someone of moral superiority. You too Brad.


----------



## Mattyo (Jan 19, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> That's right, Randy said if that happened, the individual who sent the saw will never have another saw ported by him.



so why not have another builder do it all in house? the purpose here isn't to compare builders, but to flush out which technique yields the best results......no?


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Than quit positing.
> 
> 
> I will!! but this is still an open site you're not king here, or someone of moral superiority. You too Brad.


eh hem.............whose thread is this?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> eh hem.............whose thread is this?



Arboristsite's


----------



## super3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Now, I want to see a saw that has a cut squish and a pop up! Any takers




Been there, done that, couple yrs back.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 19, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> This thread is isn't doing anything but go down hill. At least brush ape is gone



Yah, the BA succubus swirled around the bowl fighting with the toilet paper before it went glug glug glug... and was flushed back to hell.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 19, 2015)

super3 said:


> Been there, done that, couple yrs back.




Same here.....bumped a 372 up to about 220. 

Strong runner......but it's sorta silly to do both.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 19, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Arboristsite's


Oh.....sorry. My bad.


----------



## super3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Same here.....bumped a 372 up to about 220.
> 
> Strong runner......but it's sorta silly to do both.



Same saw here, my thoughts on it mirrored yours.


----------



## Farmertim (Jan 19, 2015)

What is it with chainsaws anyway? Not really on any other forums, but here on AS drama is never far around the corner. Always seem to be guys jostlin for superiority - its a frickin chainsaw! I get it, some guys are passionate about it and some do it for a living, but the fake high road, moral tone, condescending, I am just a good ole boy who does it like this, you are just a cookie cutter, blah blah blah always seems to get outta hand! Plus, there are always a pack of fan boys showing up adding to it!! Just an observation of weirdness that I have observed for many years - sucks me in to, as I am usually reading this stuff when I am procrastinating more important things - must be something in the virtual air ?!?!?!!


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 19, 2015)

I dont mind the bickering, Ive picked this side. I really could care less about the topic, bc it doesnt sway my decision on where I spend my money. Friendship means more to me than anything, and time and time again, Randy has shown that honor and friendship mean more to him than "the almighty dollar". Both Brad and Randy have all the work they want, no need to sling sh!t at eachother to get the "marketing advantage". Fans of each builder do plenty of marketing for their favorite builder behind the scenes. Ive sent dozens to Randy. Yall just need to focus on innovation and taking the porting scene to the next level, and not on eachother. There's bad blood between you two. Everyone knows it. If the builder's will work together (on a professional level- saws only), then the customer's would benefit, and everyone would be covered up with work. Look what the two monkeys (scott and randy) have come up with on the 661. The customer's are the ones benefiting from that.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Scott and I get along very well......he's smarter than I am, and I listen pretty good.


----------



## CR888 (Jan 20, 2015)

l can't believe l read all 13 pages of this thread....…kinda like a bad movie you keep watching anyway. l like the contribution and knowledge builders put on AS regardless of their cordial flavour, skin color or sexual orrientation. l know myself if l have one of those days when l want to strangle those around me perhaps posting on a permanent public forum is not the best idea....much harder l know for those that make a living here.


----------



## AKDoug (Jan 20, 2015)

CR888 said:


> l can't believe l read all 13 pages of this thread....…kinda like a bad movie you keep watching anyway. l like the contribution and knowledge builders put on AS regardless of their cordial flavour, skin color or sexual orrientation. l know myself if l have one of those days when l want to strangle those around me perhaps posting on a permanent public forum is not the best idea....much harder l know for those that make a living here.


I just skipped to 13 tl:dr


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 20, 2015)

there is more to this then one way is better then the other.
you can get more compression from a cut squish, if you need or want it, if the skirt or intake allow it.
you can alter port timing better.
improves squish velocity.
this takes more time and effort.
a pop up will only give you a small increase in compression.
it's much faster to make.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 20, 2015)




----------



## CapitaineHaddoc (Jan 20, 2015)

KG441c said:


> I got the 1st 4* but whats the last 7???? Lmao!! A few more letters needed



My english become better day after day, because i'm pretty sure I guess what the last word is

About this popup thing, I don't have enough knowledge to know what's good and what's not. I have 3 ported saws, 2 with popups, one without. All of them are great.

For cons, Randy's or Brad's topics aren't for "marketing", or maybe just a little. For me, it is more to share their knowledges, and that's the reason I like this website. It is normal that each of them wants to do the best saws, but I hope it will stay healthy competition. I also think that it is through this competition that Randy and Brad make such good saws.

In my case, I'm sure I'll have lots of fun working with a saw made by one or the other.





Even if mine will probably outcut both of yours


----------



## CR888 (Jan 20, 2015)

l think we need to be talking about a squish bands function and 'what' can be done to increase turbulance. The treemonkey alters this by re-shaping entrance angles of the transfers which l can see how that would benefit. l think we need to look at what modifications can be done to the squish chamber itself to increase turbulance. l can see either an altered pop up or some grinding of the top of the chamber in a pattern to promote a swirling turbulance. A multipoint flamefront would make better use of the incoming fuel charge and can be possibly achieved in a number of ways. l would love to do some testing grinding out shapes in the squish that promotes swirling of the charge. I think significant gains could be had by achieving a more complete burn directing more power to the crank, less emissions, less heat and greater fuel efficiency. I don't think the answer comes down to pop up or not but this subject interests me as there is far more to this.


----------



## drf255 (Jan 20, 2015)

According to Jennings, a tight squish helps make power because the charge in the area is too thin to combust. Ignition in the squish area caused increase heat where you didn't want it and increased detonation risk. Surprisingly, he didn't mention mixture swirl as a power issue. 

I've seen Brad's pop ups. They appear to be cut to match the combustion chamber quite well. 

If one were to spend enough time to make the popup have the same squish at TDC along the flat and side ramps up the dome, wouldn't that effectively increase the diameter of the squish band? It should just cause an angled squish band.

With the exception of possibly increasing turbulence with a popup or interference with flame travel, I can't see how a properly cut and designed popup could be a bad thing. 

If you make a turd popup, like I did when I welded my 025 piston, I could see it hurting power by affecting flow across the piston.

Also, unlike a 4 stroke combustion chamber, how does a perfectly concentric squish band cause turbulence?

I think Stihl got it right with the 028S combustion chamber. The chamber is asymmetric with a much larger squish on the exhaust side. The small dome fits just right and is tighter to the exhaust side of the chamber. All of these forces should force and swirl the mix towards the plug.


----------



## treesmith (Jan 20, 2015)

I was just reading about turbulence benefits in low speed 2t diesels.
Also how swirl grooves cut in to the squish band on 4 stroke car engine gives power and economy. 
What behaviour do we really need from the fuel air mix in a high rpm worksaw? Wouldn't that dictate exactly whats best?


----------



## BWS-LLC (Jan 20, 2015)

I like turtles!!!



Looks like I'm late to the fight...




Hi Randy


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 20, 2015)

Scott's point is totally true. If you want >200 PSI, cutting the squishband is how you do that, in most saws. I don't want that much compression, so don't need to use that tool. A popup makes more sense for my build goals. For those reasons, this whole debate makes no sense. IMHO, we're arguing something that doesn't really matter.


----------



## BWS-LLC (Jan 20, 2015)

I'm no saw builder, I just use them and work on them.

To me, I like the idea of a squish band being cut vs a pop-up, just as the end user and someone who works on my own stuff.

I know that with a squish band cut if something goes south with my saw I am able to throw in a new piston and go to town.

With a pop-up, that's not the story. I am not able to throw a new piston in anymore.


Maybe this has been talked about in the last 13 pages. That was all tl;dr for me.


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 20, 2015)

My outlook on this subject. From a different view. Whenever I order or build a motor for my street/strip car I go to the track and watch the different combo's run. Read dyno results, study different builds and desires of each build and my goals. I won't buy a set of cylinder heads if there are no dyno results against other cylinder heads. I want the best my money can buy.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 20, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> My outlook on this subject. From a different view. Whenever I order or build a motor for my street/strip car I go to the track and watch the different combo's run. Read dyno results, study different builds and desires of each build and my goals. I won't buy a set of cylinder heads if there are no dyno results against other cylinder heads. I want the best my money can buy.



even with the dyno results there are so many variables to sift through...OAT, Density,fuels relative humidity ? is the dyno climate controlled ?


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 20, 2015)

The dyno's I use are. But like I said I go to the track and watch the numbers. No variables if one if faster than the other. Same day, same tire or chain in this case. Clocks do not lie. Just as mph at the track does not lie.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 20, 2015)

Builder wars are nothing new here. Saw builders come and saw builders go. This is just the latest version.
Give it a year or two and the cast of characters will change but the same mud slinging, temper tantrums, and personality disorders will show up again.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Good!!! You and Brad are both getting on my last nerve. To be honest I think the both of you need to quit posting for a few days, as it seems neither of you have any self control. It's getting old, even to those you may call friends.





Andyshine77 said:


> Than quit positing.
> 
> 
> I will!! but this is still an open site you're not king here, or someone of moral superiority. You too Brad.



Just to be clear, people are free to post as they wish unless _you _say so. Is that correct?

The hypocrisy is strong with this one.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Builder wars are nothing new here. Saw builders come and saw builders go. This is just the latest version.
> Give it a year or two and the cast of characters will change but the same mud slinging, temper tantrums, and personality disorders will show up again.



Hi, Bob!


----------



## Gologit (Jan 20, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> Hi, Bob!



Hi Thomas. Same old deal, no?


----------



## old-cat (Jan 20, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Builder wars are nothing new here. Saw builders come and saw builders go. This is just the latest version.
> Give it a year or two and the cast of characters will change but the same mud slinging, temper tantrums, and personality disorders will show up again.


Hey, this is cool! I'm a johnny come lately, how long till I start having a fight with one of these other builders?


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 20, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> i sent one saw to randy and when i do another one it will go there too but here is food for thought.
> 
> what do the manufacturers use? A few domed pistons and lots flat tops. with the money they invest in R&D if a pop-up made more power i think we would see more saws with one from the factory.



i have been thinking about my statement above and decided something else might apply to it that has been brought up in this thread too. 
Complete burn of the fuel in the chamber and the disturbance to the flow from a pop-up whether it be good or bad. Manufacturers have to meet EPA emissions standards and just looking at this without a full understanding of the work that Brad/Randy/Scott or any of the other builders do. It makes sense to me that if a pop-up helped the turbulence/mixing to give a more complete/even burn of the fuel the OEM's would use it. less raw fuel out the exhaust lowers emissions and increases power. does any of that make sense??


----------



## Gologit (Jan 20, 2015)

old-cat said:


> Hey, this is cool! I'm a johnny come lately, how long till I start having a fight with one of these other builders?



Any time you want. It's easy. Just post an idea or an opinion and somebody will argue with you. It doesn't make any difference if you're right or wrong or if the other guy's idea is better or worse. The argument is the important part.
The nice thing about all the pointless arguing is that it creates a lot of traffic and hits on AS and that pleases the owners of the site. Since the owners obviously care more about quantity than quality they encourage the childish bickering...it puts money in their pockets and AS, above all, is a business.
You want to argue with that? Go argue with yourself....I'm tired of it.


----------



## old-cat (Jan 20, 2015)

Party pooper!


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 20, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Just post an idea or an opinion and somebody will argue with you.


No they won't!


----------



## TK (Jan 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Scott's point is totally true. If you want >200 PSI, cutting the squishband is how you do that, in most saws. I don't want that much compression, so don't need to use that tool. A popup makes more sense for my build goals. For those reasons, this whole debate makes no sense. IMHO, we're arguing something that doesn't really matter.




Scott didn't say the only benefit was more compression....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Any time you want. It's easy. Just post an idea or an opinion and somebody will argue with you. It doesn't make any difference if you're right or wrong or if the other guy's idea is better or worse. The argument is the important part.
> The nice thing about all the pointless arguing is that it creates a lot of traffic and hits on AS and that pleases the owners of the site. Since the owners obviously care more about quantity than quality they encourage the childish bickering...it puts money in their pockets and AS, above all, is a business.
> You want to argue with that? Go argue with yourself....I'm tired of it.



Oh step off you old fart. 

This internut saw porting stuff is serious. 

Love, Randy


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Like I said yesterday......I'm gonna try to leave the fussing about this stuff at the door when I check in here. 

To be honest (and as everyone already knows) it's got far less to do with saws than it has to do with bad blood from days gone by. I'm bad to dwell on stuff.....and I never, ever let go of a resentment. Cross me today, and you have a enemy from now on. That's not healthy maybe, but it's true. That's likely the biggest issue here. I will try to let this go........I'm even sick of reading this crap.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 20, 2015)

I'm not looking forward to the saw builders "going" ... I'm older than they are!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 20, 2015)

TK said:


> Scott didn't say the only benefit was more compression....



He also mention mentioned flexibility in port timing. There's only one saw I'm concerned about this, and that's in a 660. On the rest of the models I port, it would simply mean more grinding, to simply get back where I started. There are other models where some builders want to lower the exhaust. I haven't found that need. I'm getting the gains I'm looking for without it. That's my opinion, my build style. No one else need feel threatened by that. I'm not saying other methods are wrong. That's simply how I do it. We're all building strong saws.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Like I said yesterday......I'm gonna try to leave the fussing about this stuff at the door when I check in here.
> 
> To be honest (and as everyone already knows) it's got far less to do with saws than it has to do with bad blood from days gone by. I'm bad to dwell on stuff.....and I never, ever let go of a resentment. Cross me today, and you have a enemy from now on. That's not healthy maybe, but it's true. That's likely the biggest issue here. I will try to let this go........I'm even sick of reading this crap.


And I know exactly where it started. Me. I was very unprofessional in how I handled the whole aftermarket cylinder fiasco. My opinion hasn't changed, but I should have kept my nose out of your business. Please accept my apologies. And please, bury that hatchet!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

That was only part of it.......but yeah. 

I need to get over it and move on.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Hi Thomas. Same old deal, no?



The more things change, the more they stay the same.


----------



## opinion (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Like I said yesterday......I'm gonna try to leave the fussing about this stuff at the door when I check in here.
> 
> To be honest (and as everyone already knows) it's got far less to do with saws than it has to do with bad blood from days gone by. I'm bad to dwell on stuff.....and I never, ever let go of a resentment. Cross me today, and you have a enemy from now on. That's not healthy maybe, but it's true. That's likely the biggest issue here. I will try to let this go........I'm even sick of reading this crap.




You should have a boxing match for 3 minutes. Let it all out and maybe you can put it behind and have a beer.


----------



## angelo c (Jan 20, 2015)

Big Group Hug !!!

C'mon now everybody in close for the family shot !!!!

SMILE !!!!!


poof


----------



## angelo c (Jan 20, 2015)

old-cat said:


> Hey, this is cool! I'm a johnny come lately, how long till I start having a fight with one of these other builders?


you need to be a "sponsor" first...with "skin in the game" you have rights to equality !!!!


----------



## angelo c (Jan 20, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


>




now those are some BOOBS !!!!


SOOOOO HAWTTTTT !!!!

Rep sent Jeremy !!!


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jan 20, 2015)

Iceman said:


> cool but he might catch something he didn't want on his hook.
> 
> Torque is way more important than, "power."


----------



## David Young (Jan 20, 2015)

I have not seen a direct mention of a couple of things i think are important and come in play. 
one is laminar flow

either a flat or smooth dome will facilitate laminar flow over the crown.

laminar flow is the opposite of the turbulence right? so why would that be good?

you want maximum flow without disruption until the two transfer streams collide and will naturally head up the back of the cylinder wall setting up the loop scavenging.

during this filling of the cylinder with fresh mix any remaining burnt gasses that are not swept out will be trapped and dilute the next charge.

in theory we want 100% fresh charge in the cylinder for compression. we are trying to increase performance in many ways by attempting to increase efficiency by 2 percent here 4 percent there. Throw it out the window if your cylinder only has a 85% charge in it.

when the transfer streams hit the pop up what do you think happens? they go up right, its essentially a little ramp. when that happens the flat portion of the popup will have burnt gases sitting on top of the crown. That will be mixed in the next cylinder charge yes you have increased compression which makes this charge more efficient but it is a smaller charge.

I do think if a popup was gradual enough or small enough it could work but I think the squish cut is the better choice.

I think the real benefit of the cut squish is scavenging efficiency. 


a popup has typically shown a performance increase compared to a saw that just has the squish set and not cut.

but what if we put a bigger charge that is more pure in the motor with lower compression?

David


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Nice post David. 

Well thought out, and well written.

I don't really have a good education, and I have trouble putting into words what I've seen and studied. I wish I was better able to put it out there.


----------



## sunfish (Jan 20, 2015)

David Young said:


> I have not seen a direct mention of a couple of things i think are important and come in play.
> one is laminar flow
> 
> either a flat or smooth dome will facilitate laminar flow over the crown.
> ...


Almost too long to read, but I did read it and you make some very good points there!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Yes he does.......that post probably makes more sense than anything I've read on the subject.


----------



## David Young (Jan 20, 2015)

Thanks guys

now im going back to being a smart a55


----------



## sunfish (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Yes he does.......that post probably makes more sense than anything I've read on the subject.


Yes, makes lot of sense and very easy to read!


----------



## cuttinties (Jan 20, 2015)

David Young said:


> I have not seen a direct mention of a couple of things i think are important and come in play.
> one is laminar flow
> 
> either a flat or smooth dome will facilitate laminar flow over the crown.
> ...



Laminar in a saw will result in a couple of things in my mind that aren't going to make power. Fresh charge is more apt to mix with the burnt charge thus killing scavenging. Also resulting in fresh charge getting blow through the exhaust. Scavenging= efficient power in a 2 stroke regardless of its intended purpose (saws,bikes,boats and rc cars). The better it scavenged the cleaner the emissions as well which is why manufacturers are heading towards strato and delayed scavenging. We like to think saws are simple and power is great, but there's so many ways to make it folks tend to argue over it. There's scavenging diagrams and books galore but they don't fit the mold of a saw. 

So what everyone ends up with is a few guys who are well versed with saws and are looking at different things, looking for the same end result which is more power. These are just my opinions and I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. A person shouldn't be ostracized for having an opinion after all its one of the freedoms we have.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......

I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well. 

Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 20, 2015)

40%


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?



I have seen that in a few 460 jugs now ,seems the higher compression ,cracks them above the base on a few ,I have not had the problem myself though . Just because a few failed does not mean all will fail .


----------



## walexa07 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?



Sounds like a casting flaw to me - that may or may not have broken just the same in stock form. Otherwise you'd expect a rash of your ported 460s to exhibit the same behavior after a good bit of use.


----------



## cuttinties (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?





Trx250r180 said:


> I have seen that in a few 460 jugs now ,seems the higher compression ,cracks them above the base on a few ,I have not had the problem myself though . Just because a few failed does not mean all will fail .



I'd rather take some reaming for only grabbing 25% and take my pride in a long lasting saw. 044/046 have weak cylinder bases and the 372xp doesn't have the strongest crank in the world. But some guy's are cool with a mail hauler and less durability. But some guys also wear tube socks with flip flops.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

cuttinties said:


> I'd rather take some reaming for only grabbing 25% and take my pride in a long lasting saw. 044/046 have weak cylinder bases and the 372xp doesn't have the strongest crank in the world. But some guy's are cool with a mail hauler and less durability. *But some guys also wear tube socks with flip flops.*



Well.........I have been that guy before.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?



That is the model, not the mods.. Or so I have been told by a "Stihl guy"..
But good question none the less...


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well.........I have been that guy before.



What do you mean "Have been"?

You ARE "that guy"...


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> That is the model, not the mods.. Or so I have been told by a "Stihl guy"..
> But good question none the less...


says Mr. oh sextyfour


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

I am....... 


It's true. 


Jon is outside running a NOS 064 with finger ports and a MS461 coil. 

Life is good on Cottle Lane.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I am.......
> 
> 
> It's true.
> ...



Poly flywheel coil working ok on an aluminum flywheel ?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Yeah........seems to work well. 

It's bouncing off the rev limiter..........in the cut......


----------



## David Young (Jan 20, 2015)

two or three screw.

is this an option for the redlight flywheel?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah........seems to work well.
> 
> It's bouncing off the rev limiter..........in the cut......


Annoying isn't it, Limbing with that coil is even more annoying .makes good power down low though


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah........seems to work well.
> 
> It's bouncing off the rev limiter..........in the cut......


Might want to get it a bigger sprocket...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

David Young said:


> two or three screw.
> 
> is this an option for the redlight flywheel?



No David, I'm afraid it will only work with the 1201 flywheel. 

Two screws are all that match up.



Trx250r180 said:


> Annoying isn't it, Limbing with that coil is even more annoying .makes good power down low though



This is my saw, and it's not gonna get used much........can you say "Shelf Queen"?

I've got a box with 30 - 40 461 coils though.......I need to use them somewhere.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No David, I'm afraid it will only work with the 1201 flywheel.
> 
> Two screws are all that match up.
> 
> ...



What happens if you cut the red wire ? Seen it in a movie once i think . Be nice to figure a way to disarm the rev limit part .


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?



Like this one? 







That saw was bone stock.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Yup... It can happen.. The ears can break off too..


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> Like this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That saw is dirty....
Send it to Jon for cleaning...


----------



## BWS-LLC (Jan 20, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> Like this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That don't look usable....

Is that one I'm getting....

We may need to negotiate on the price....


----------



## BWS-LLC (Jan 20, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> That saw is dirty....
> Send it to Jon for cleaning...



Shoot, that's a clean saw coming from him....


----------



## David Young (Jan 20, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> Like this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




might need two coats of belzona


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## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Yeah.......just like that.


----------



## redoakneck (Jan 20, 2015)

This all really depends on the OIL, I think some oil is better for pop up, some better for squish cut, and said ratio of said oil, big difference!!!


I'm an idiot, wers ma shirt !!!!


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## Chris-PA (Jan 20, 2015)

redoakneck said:


> This all really depends on the OIL, I think some oil is better for pop up, some better for squish cut, and said ratio of said oil, big difference!!!
> 
> 
> I'm an idiot, wers ma shirt !!!!


So now we're gonna talk about popup oil? That's likely to go pretty far off into the weeds!


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I am.......
> 
> 
> It's true.
> ...



i like the sound of that....


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 20, 2015)




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## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Popup oil? 

OK guys......this is a family site you know.


----------



## EvilRoySlade (Jan 20, 2015)

Compare fuel consumption between the styles. I know it matters to loggers. 2-3 more trees between fill ups is a big deal. 


Sent from my stupidphone


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Popup oil?
> 
> OK guys......this is a family site you know.


Here's something for the whole family.....


----------



## EvilRoySlade (Jan 20, 2015)

Sorry, I shouldn't say compare. 


Sent from my stupidphone


----------



## TK (Jan 20, 2015)

I will say that pop-up videos are the best kinds of videos.


----------



## jeepyfz450 (Jan 20, 2015)

Everyone knows smittybilt saws are the best.... If you didn't now you do.


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 20, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have seen that in a few 460 jugs now ,seems the higher compression ,cracks them above the base on a few ,I have not had the problem myself though . Just because a few failed does not mean all will fail .


I think it was JJ that said that happens a lot when the bases are turned down and used 2 gallons a day 6 days a week until failure. Jasha had a run of 390s do that. Daniel up in Vancouver had the same thing happen in 2-3 months.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 20, 2015)

I couldn't get this to embed for whatever reason. It may show the strongest argument for pop ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

As far as I know......this one is the first one of my saws to bust the jug. 

I prolly need more compression then. 


thomas1 said:


> I couldn't get this to embed for whatever reason. It may show the strongest argument for pop ups.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9



Here ya go.....


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 20, 2015)

So what's better?
Pop up or flat top?
Nobody said.


----------



## jeepyfz450 (Jan 20, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


> So what's better?
> Pop up or flat top?
> Nobody said.


Was this question regarding haircuts or chainsaws?


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 20, 2015)

jeepyfz450 said:


> Was this question regarding haircuts or chainsaws?


I thought it was loaves of bread, pies or some other baked good.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> I couldn't get this to embed for whatever reason. It may show the strongest argument for pop ups.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9


That bartender guy is very flexible


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Here's something for the whole family.....


You are a pretty talented sharpie artist mista .


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 20, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Poly flywheel coil working ok on an aluminum flywheel ?


yes it works great


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


> So what's better?
> Pop up or flat top?
> Nobody said.



Sponge Bob knows.


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Sponge Bob knows.


Pics, or it didn't happen.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 20, 2015)

Randy you and i musta been screwing one together almost the same time. do you think we lost any timing this way? i am considering a little key filing.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

I've used the 461 coil on the 660s a lot......this is the first time on a aluminum flywheel. Let me know what you think after running it some. You'll likely get time on it before I do.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


> Pics, or it didn't happen.


----------



## Ironworker (Jan 20, 2015)

cuttinties said:


> I'd rather take some reaming for only grabbing 25% and take my pride in a long lasting saw. 044/046 have weak cylinder bases and the 372xp doesn't have the strongest crank in the world. But some guy's are cool with a mail hauler and less durability. But some guys also wear tube socks with flip flops.


I wear tube socks with flip flops all the time, hell its winter for christ sake.


----------



## mt.stalker (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?


Methinks u should not be wasting ur time porting those POS Kraut saws , they obviously have poor metallurgy . Stick to the Swedish orange and red , they can handle it . Swedish chicks are sexier too !!!


----------



## jonsered 820 (Jan 20, 2015)

Well now you can't argue with that logic that's the smartest thing I've read yet Swedish chicks always get my vote


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


>


Looks like SpongeBob has a pop up himself.

What's the story behind that?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Duke Thieroff said:


> Looks like SpongeBob has a pop up himself.
> 
> What's the story behind that?



There was this pervert see.....


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> There was this pervert see.....


Indeed.

He may have been a pervert, but a master craftsman as well...


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 20, 2015)

Square pants, hex nuts and a phillips head........


----------



## Jtheo (Jan 20, 2015)

Well, this is all interesting, but most of it is over my head.
I will say this... once I ran a ported saw, I never wanted to run a stock saw again.


----------



## MarkEagleUSA (Jan 20, 2015)

A story as old as time... one feller pops up and the other tries to squish him.


----------



## SCHallenger (Jan 20, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> Nope, I don't think so. Yer history until you sign back up again, Dude.. do you have a life? If not get one.



Thank you, thankyou, thank you!!!


----------



## SCHallenger (Jan 20, 2015)

Mattyo said:


> whats prime donne? i'm not up on lingo....



It's not worth your time to give a thought to anything that joker says.


----------



## Mattyo (Jan 20, 2015)

okalee dokalee... me personally I'd like to see someone tackle this question with more focus on the "whats best" than the "who" it came from. I don't rightly care where the right answer comes from... but thats just me.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

I don't think any of us have to ability to *prove* which is best. We all have reasons for doing things the way we do though. Brad explained that he was able to achieve the goals he set for his builds with a popup piston......there are others that feel the same way. I used to use popups myself, but started cutting squish bands because I had people asking for that. After awhile I was so used to cutting the squish, that making a popup seemed strange to me. Many of the people I build saws for express that they like having a "off the shelf" piston.....if it ever needs to be replaced, it's not a problem for anyone to supply it. 

Either way, compression is gonna be raised. That much is very true. 

Setting aside the flow across the crown argument, and machined VS cast results in tighter tolerances for better detonation control, there are still other aspects to consider.

Since I started cutting the squish, I began looking at the exhaust heights a little closer.......and even came up with a displacement to exhaust height rule that I use. On many saws, I use a lower exhaust height than the engine had from the factory. So, aside from gaining the compression I'm wanting, I also gain more control over the port timing numbers. 

Saws like the 026/MS260 have way too much exhaust height for my preferences, so I can get the exhaust a little lower by cutting the squish. That saw in particular is a pain in the ass because it has a domed piston, and a domed squish band. I cut it on a taper........and it's a little tricky to get just right, but still worth the trouble to me. 

Some other saws are near impossible to use a popup in. The Echo CS600P is another with a domed piston, that get cut on a taper......

For my goals, being able to machine the squish area in different ways is very important. 

Can I prove which is "better"? No, I suppose not. I can only express which I prefer, and why.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I don't think any of us have to ability to *prove* which is best. We all have reasons for doing things the way we do though. Brad explained that he was able to achieve the goals he set for his builds with a popup piston......there are others that feel the same way. I used to use popups myself, but started cutting squish bands because I had people asking for that. After awhile I was so used to cutting the squish, that making a popup seemed strange to me. Many of the people I build saws for express that they like having a "off the shelf" piston.....if it ever needs to be replaced, it's not a problem for anyone to supply it.
> 
> Either way, compression is gonna be raised. That much is very true.
> 
> ...


You know I wanna know the displacement to exhaust height rule??!! Lol!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Nope.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 20, 2015)

KG441c said:


> You know I wanna know the displacement to exhaust height rule??!! Lol!!


You have multiple mastermindworksaws you should be able to figure out the ratio, all ya need is a degree wheel


----------



## KG441c (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Nope.


Shi*!!!


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

I feel dirty now...
Not as dirty as randy, but...
Ain't that pretty???


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

Look squished Matt....and simple. 

BTW.....you are dirty.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 20, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 396556
> 
> 
> I feel dirty now...
> ...


Yep


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> You have multiple mastermindworksaws you should be able to figure out the ratio, all ya need is a degree wheel



I don't know about anyone else...
But I got this unwritten rule...

If I send a saw off for someone to build, I run it till it fails...
I won't open it up for any reason other than that.. I just enjoy running it until that time... Sort of a "I don't need to know what's in it" just run it, thing..


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

I've built saws for people that build saws.....I tell anyone......tear it down and copy it if you want to. I'm not doing anything special.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 20, 2015)

I was jus tryin to read into tha monkey logic!!! Lol!!!


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Look squished Matt....and simple.
> 
> BTW.....you are dirty.


I only needed .008 removed from that 372, so that's all I took...
Bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
But it sure is a smooth .008...
170-180 is the goal...
.019 - .020 squish hopefully..
We'll see... Prolly blow up in my face...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 20, 2015)

It's simple really. 

This is just for working saws BTW. 

50cc = 105
60cc = 103
70cc = 102
80cc = 101
90cc = 100
etc.....


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I've built saws for people that build saws.....I tell anyone......tear it down and copy it if you want to. I'm not doing anything special.


I know.. But I don't need to know...

I just got a **** load of wood to get cut every year... 
And of course a race or 2 to win...


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One thing I have to keep in mind when I start getting carried away.........I'm not even really trying to get everything I possibly can from these engines. The first thing on my mind needs to reliability......
> 
> I had a guy send be a pic of a MS460 jug I did a few years ago that had the flange busted off. I offered to find a jug and fix it, but he said he was just gonna part it out........it had served him well.
> 
> Makes a guy wonder though........how much is too much?





Mastermind said:


> I don't think any of us have to ability to *prove* which is best. We all have reasons for doing things the way we do though. Brad explained that he was able to achieve the goals he set for his builds with a popup piston......there are others that feel the same way. I used to use popups myself, but started cutting squish bands because I had people asking for that. After awhile I was so used to cutting the squish, that making a popup seemed strange to me. Many of the people I build saws for express that they like having a "off the shelf" piston.....if it ever needs to be replaced, it's not a problem for anyone to supply it.
> 
> Either way, compression is gonna be raised. That much is very true.
> 
> ...



very good posts
I've found that port timing has a very strong relationship to stroke. piston speed is slower on shorter stroked motors running the same rpm, so time area ends up being the same. I hope that makes sense, I don't know how else to explain it.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 20, 2015)

Randy from the looks of your transfers there its no doubt 90cc and runnin way too much crankcase compression!! Better go with 100° and open the exhaust on up and get rid of some of the crankcase compression and velocity!!!!! Lmbo!!!


----------



## nmurph (Jan 20, 2015)

KG441c said:


> View attachment 396558



I guess I better quit laying around the zoo without some shorts on.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> very good posts
> I've found that port timing has a very strong relationship to stroke. piston speed is slower on shorter stroked motors running the same rpm, so time area ends up being the same. I hope that makes sense, I don't know how else to explain it.



That makes a ton of sense!


----------



## nmurph (Jan 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> I don't know about anyone else...
> But I got this unwritten rule...
> 
> If I send a saw off for someone to build, I run it till it fails...
> I won't open it up for any reason other than that.. I just enjoy running it until that time... Sort of a "I don't need to know what's in it" just run it, thing..



Me either. I've got saws from 5 different builders and only one have I ever seen the insides of, and that one came to me as a kit to assemble on my crankcase. I've never put a degree wheel on one either. Randy posts so many pics of his builds that there's not much left to the imagination.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 21, 2015)

There's some shiny stuff in der....


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## KG441c (Jan 21, 2015)

I aint gonna lie!! Ive looked all up through the exhaust port and spark plug hole!! Its all shiny in there!! Lol!


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## Hedgerow (Jan 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> very good posts
> I've found that port timing has a very strong relationship to stroke. piston speed is slower on shorter stroked motors running the same rpm, so time area ends up being the same. I hope that makes sense, I don't know how else to explain it.


And I really like the way the longer bore to stroke motors run it seems..

Wonder why that is??


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> And I really like the way the longer bore to stroke motors run it seems..
> 
> Wonder why that is??


crank angle


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## awol (Jan 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> And I really like the way the longer bore to stroke motors run it seems..
> 
> Wonder why that is??


 'Cause they're like an old 2c John Deere.


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## treesmith (Jan 21, 2015)

Same here, I'm worried if I open up my ported saws the magic elf will run away and then I'll be ****ed


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## MustangMike (Jan 21, 2015)

I think the longer stroke is also more designed for torque (a longer push) and the shorter stroke for RPM (a slower piston).


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

461


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

461


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

it happens


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 396589
> View attachment 396588
> 
> 461


How much epoxy to fix that one ?


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## Big_Wood (Jan 21, 2015)

i'm not trying to be a prick but i decided to reveal who is right before page 1000. none of you are right, i am :****you: IMHO though i would sacrifice a bit of power just to be able to replace a piston without machine work if i ever had to. ding ding ding


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## Deets066 (Jan 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> I don't know about anyone else...
> But I got this unwritten rule...
> 
> If I send a saw off for someone to build, I run it till it fails...
> I won't open it up for any reason other than that.. I just enjoy running it until that time... Sort of a "I don't need to know what's in it" just run it, thing..


Just messin wit em, believe I wouldn't go through tearing down multiple saws just to find the magic monkey ratio. If I really really wanted to know I would just ask, but don't have to. He already posted it. 

Even with all of his tips and tricks and knowledge. I don't have near steady enough hand to run an alumahog like him!


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

440
the most common reason for a cylinder to break like this is loose screws


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

you will also need the right tool


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

I just read this whole drama. I feel like I just watched the first episode of Orange County Saw Builders...


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## Moparmyway (Jan 21, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


>





Adirondackstihl said:


>



You two friggin guys shorted out my second screen !
Evidently, they don't like it when a mouthful of liquid is spewn on them


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## Moparmyway (Jan 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> That bartender guy is very flexible


I hope you watched it with mute engaged ....................... WAIT, don't answer that. I really don't want to know the answer, just in case you put it on MAX volume on yer stereo


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## Moparmyway (Jan 21, 2015)

Mastermind said:


>


If you used a small pencil instead of that phillips, it would have been perrrrfect !!!


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

My only experience with popup vs cut band is a 346 from Dan Henry (popup) and a 2153 done by Brad (a while ago) with a cut squish. Power is very similar, but power characteristics are better on the popup saw. cutting cookies on a log stand, its a toss up. But working with the saw limbing out an oak top, the 346 is snappier and works better. It only has 180 psi vs 200 on the cut saw too...Kinda makes me think people over emphasize having 200psi of compression when its not really necessary on some models.


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## Moparmyway (Jan 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> And of course a race or 2 to win...



............. let me know when I get another shot at yer title


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## wigglesworth (Jan 21, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> My only experience with popup vs cut band is a 346 from Dan Henry (popup) and a 2153 done by Brad (a while ago) with a cut squish. Power is very similar, but power characteristics are better on the popup saw. cutting cookies on a log stand, its a toss up. But working with the saw limbing out an oak top, the 346 is snappier and works better. It only has 180 psi vs 200 on the cut saw too...Kinda makes me think people over emphasize having 200psi of compression when its not really necessary on some models.



Imma go out on a limb and say theres a whole lot more different on them two saws than the piston/chamber....


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## jar944 (Jan 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> And I really like the way the longer bore to stroke motors run it seems..
> 
> Wonder why that is??



Square is optimum for max power (for the displacement). Oversquare like most saws is a design concession, be it piston speed, engine size etc. More stroke allows more port area. 

The short rods on saws also don't help anything but engine compactness.

look @ a modern 50cc MX bike for comparison, 39.5mm bore X 40mm stroke and a 88mm C to C rod. 

And in keeping with the thread its a Dome piston (not flat & not popped up)


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## blsnelling (Jan 21, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Imma go out on a limb and say theres a whole lot more different on them two saws than the piston/chamber....


My popup 346s are stronger than that saw, built the same way, except with a popup piston and less compression. That saw runs great, but not the same. There are reasons I build like I build. My old 346, built with a popup, was as fast as the winning saw at the build off, in the hands of a better operator than myself. He also commented on how easy that saw was to run. That's enough to convince me, at least on that model.

Edit: BTW, that winning saw, built by Andyshine77, had a cut squishband, so I'm not saying it doesn't work.


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> My popup 346s are stronger than that saw, built the same way, except with a popup piston and less compression. That saw runs great, but not the same.



I agree. It's hard to put into words the difference between the two. Someone really would have to run the two side by side to understand. They both are way better than a stock saw, both make great power, but the pop-up saw just works better.


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 396589
> View attachment 396588
> 
> 461


Wonder what that sounded like when it came apart???


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## blsnelling (Jan 21, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> I agree. It's hard to put into words the difference between the two. Someone really would have to run the two side by side to understand. They both are way better than a stock saw, both make great power, but the pop-up saw just works better.


Freer revving, quicker spool up, higher RPMs, while still having great torque?


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## blsnelling (Jan 21, 2015)

BTW, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm simply explaining why I do what I do.


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Freer revving, quicker spool up, higher RPMs, while still having great torque?


Yeah..kinda exactly like that lol


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

If all can stay civil this is an interesting topic. I think there is an application for both. Very seldom can you say absolute one way is better for all situations.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 21, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I think the longer stroke is also more designed for torque (a longer push) and the shorter stroke for RPM (a slower piston).


For a given displacement a _shorter_ stroke has a higher peak torque (near TDC), because the piston has more surface area. In a pneumatic piston the cylinder area determines the force, and near TDC the increased piston area beats the better leverage of the longer stroke (and the crank angle is small anyway near TDC). But as the crank angle moves to 90deg the better leverage of the longer stoke engine wins, especially as the volume is increasing and the cylinder pressure is falling off.


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## wigglesworth (Jan 21, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> I agree. It's hard to put into words the difference between the two. Someone really would have to run the two side by side to understand. They both are way better than a stock saw, both make great power, but the pop-up saw just works better.



What chain u running? .325 or 3/8?

Same on both?


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## barneyrb (Jan 21, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> For a given displacement a _shorter_ stroke has a higher peak torque (near TDC), because the piston has more surface area. In a pneumatic piston the cylinder area determines the force, and near TDC the increased piston area beats the better leverage of the longer stroke (and the crank angle is small anyway near TDC). But as the crank angle moves to 90deg the better leverage of the longer stoke engine wins, especially as the volume is increasing and the cylinder pressure is falling off.



Rod length has an awful lot to do with crank angle and applying leverage to the crankshaft. To me the overall combination is the most important aspect....


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> What chain u running? .325 or 3/8?
> 
> Same on both?



I run 18" bars on them. I have run 3/8 (72LGX) and .325 (23RS) on both in 7t and 8t in .325 and 7t for 3/8 (only option). Unless you're cutting at max capacity (18" dia. wood) all the time or run really low rakers, I like the chain speed of the 3/8 -7 or .325-8 on either one.


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## fastLeo151 (Jan 21, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> My only experience with popup vs cut band is a 346 from Dan Henry (popup) and a 2153 done by Brad (a while ago) with a cut squish. Power is very similar, but power characteristics are better on the popup saw. cutting cookies on a log stand, its a toss up. But working with the saw limbing out an oak top, the 346 is snappier and works better. It only has 180 psi vs 200 on the cut saw too...Kinda makes me think people over emphasize having 200psi of compression when its not really necessary on some models.




I'm with wiggs on this one, you can't compare those saws. There's just to many variables.


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## old-cat (Jan 21, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> My only experience with popup vs cut band is a 346 from Dan Henry (popup) and a 2153 done by Brad (a while ago) with a cut squish. Power is very similar, but power characteristics are better on the popup saw. cutting cookies on a log stand, its a toss up. But working with the saw limbing out an oak top, the 346 is snappier and works better. It only has 180 psi vs 200 on the cut saw too...Kinda makes me think people over emphasize having 200psi of compression when its not really necessary on some models.


My 346/353 is squish band cut with 185 psi, 18" Oregon ProLite .325 x 8t, 357 intake. Just absolutely AMAZING!


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## sunfish (Jan 21, 2015)

I have a 346 with a pop-up and one with a flat-top. Do I win a prize?


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## sunfish (Jan 21, 2015)

I also Really notice the *longer stroke* of the 357 over the 346! Basically same saw and only 2mm larger bore in the 357. The big sister here will just walk all over the lil' sis, stock or ported!!!


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## Hedgerow (Jan 21, 2015)

sunfish said:


> I have a 346 with a pop-up and one with a flat-top. Do I win a prize?


Yes... 
A cookie..!!!


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 21, 2015)

fastLeo151 said:


> I'm with wiggs on this one, you can't compare those saws. There's just to many variables.


Why can't I?  Same model saw, both ported, two different methods, two similar yet noticeably different outcomes. If I were on team Randy with you I would probably say the same thing I guess. I'm not on anybody's team though. I'm not trying to prove one way is right and one way is wrong. I really could care less whether a saw has a popup or a cut chamber as long as it runs how I want it to. There is more than one way to skin a cat folks. If a popup makes sense, use it. If a cut chamber is better for that situation, do that. Ya'll take this crap waaay to serious.


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## weimedog (Jan 21, 2015)

Of course you all are familiar with log rod small block chevy's ... why did they do that? I sometimes wonder (while bouncing around in a plow truck) about the differences relative to the pressure rise in the crank case in long stroke & short stroke designs.... why did 372's op for a little more stroke vs. 272's? Also wonder on some of the "wonder cut" saw builds, what happens to the x-sectional area of the transfers & flow characteristics of said transfer ports if you drop the cylinder without adjusting either the piston crown or the transfers to compensate. (Relative to timing, also in exposed x-sectional area and now the lower edge of the transfer is below the crown of the piston at BDC effecting flow characteristics.... ) How much of the resultant blow down numbers of the better saws builds is about timing and how much is about compensating for disrupted flow characteristics? Maybe a cut cylinder and a popup concept combined? Seems to me you have to look at the whole system as compared to one link in the chain. And each of the saw build concepts will end up with different timing numbers for optimal performance based on the entire set of characteristics and compromises. Which is why for most, better let randy or brad build their saws! For the tinkerer... don't be looking for magic pill numbers! Just ball park numbers and find your own based on your own builds. That's part of the fun. (Would put this post over in the "350" thread too... but you all will be bouncing back and forth so one place is fine)


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## RiverRat2 (Jan 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> very good posts
> I've found that port timing has a very strong relationship to stroke. piston speed is slower on shorter stroked motors running the same rpm, so time area ends up being the same. I hope that makes sense, I don't know how else to explain it.


 
You are correct Scott & Wiggs some folks just dont get it,,, The longer stroked moto's piston has to travel faster/velocity to complete the RPM,,, but there are combinations of all the other stuff (Variables) that also comes into play aka: port timing, fuel charge and exhausts velocities, igniton timing, piston dwell times @ TDC/BDC in percent/degrees, and not to forget about faster crankspeeds in inrealtion to the crank shafts throw radius//flywheel mass, in relation to rod angle in a triganomic sense which increases better/higher torque output characteristics....

But who's counting,,,, Good to see you posting anyways


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 396604
> 
> View attachment 396605
> 
> ...



That wrench says Indian ,same company as the motorcycle ? Never seen an Indian branded tool before .


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## sunfish (Jan 21, 2015)

Back in my hot rod days I was into small block Fords and just loved a 289 done up right. Old engine builder told me to take a closer look at the 302, same motor longer stroke. EYES OPEN.

The Chevys guys back then were all de-strokin everything before they got to strokin stuff...


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## weimedog (Jan 21, 2015)

sunfish said:


> Back in my hot rod days I was into small block Fords and just loved a 289 done up right. Old engine builder told me to take a closer look at the 302, same motor longer stroke. EYES OPEN.
> 
> The Chevys guys back then were all de-strokin everything before they got to strokin stuff...


 
Think we are all in the stroking phase here....


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

weimedog said:


> Think we are all in the stroking phase here....


only the guys with pop ups, the rest of them are a little flat


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## Mastermind (Jan 21, 2015)

I woke up with a popup........had a lot of torque too.


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## Mattyo (Jan 21, 2015)

The Viagra PushUp: 

Had to post it....


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## Mattyo (Jan 21, 2015)

We r sooooo gonna get banned!


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## Chris-PA (Jan 21, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I woke up with a popup........had a lot of torque too.


Must not have been thinking about the flat tops.


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## Joe Kidd (Jan 21, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I woke up with a popup........had a lot of torque too.


 Doesn't torque follow shorter connecting rods?


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## Mastermind (Jan 21, 2015)

I admit it........

Joe Kidd is a wise ass.


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## windthrown (Jan 21, 2015)

Mattyo said:


> We r sooooo gonna get banned!



Meh, maybe in the AS of old. Now you can come back like the Ape and get swatted over and over again. Talk about pop-ups, that guy is a regular Whack-A-Mole at the arcade.


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## RiverRat2 (Jan 21, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I woke up with a popup........had a lot of torque too.


 I Know Right,,, probably couldn't have put a wrinkle on it with a 24" Stillson wrench ehhh???


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## Mastermind (Jan 21, 2015)




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## tlandrum (Jan 21, 2015)




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## Mastermind (Jan 21, 2015)

It's a fun topic though my friend.


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## tlandrum (Jan 21, 2015)

you need to get out more often lol


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## old-cat (Jan 21, 2015)

There's NOTHING fun about it! It's life and death serious


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## Mastermind (Jan 21, 2015)

Yeah......dis chainsaw stuff is serious.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 21, 2015)

weimedog said:


> Of course you all are familiar with log rod small block chevy's ... why did they do that? I sometimes wonder (while bouncing around in a plow truck) about the differences relative to the pressure rise in the crank case in long stroke & short stroke designs.


Long rods are best used with induction limited applications such as stock cylinder heads(small port aftermarket heads also) and restrictor plate engines. For the most part the connecting rod just connects the piston to the crankshaft. With long strokes and short deck heights rod length is important so piston can clear the crankshaft counterweights.


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## fordf150 (Jan 21, 2015)

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Long rods are best used with induction limited applications such as stock cylinder heads(small port aftermarket heads also) and restrictor plate engines. For the most part the connecting rod just connects the piston to the crankshaft. With long strokes and short deck heights rod length is important so piston can clear the crankshaft counterweights.


and there is why i never liked 383 small blocks. long stroke required a long rod/short piston. saw lots of broken piston skirts in them engines when they were popular and guys around here built them as street engines.


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## M&Rtree (Jan 21, 2015)

I never did like 350's for a hot rod. Now 400's well I do love them.


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## redfin (Jan 21, 2015)

This piston posted earlier seems as though it would facilitate some of the discussed topics. Machined squish to increase velocity, equal directed flow towards the center of the chamber to maximize direct pressure on the crank?


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## jar944 (Jan 21, 2015)

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Long rods are best used with induction limited applications such as stock cylinder heads(small port aftermarket heads also) and restrictor plate engines. For the most part the connecting rod just connects the piston to the crankshaft. With long strokes and short deck heights rod length is important so piston can clear the crankshaft counterweights.



If that were always true longer rods wouldn't make more power on identical 2t engines, except they have proven to to just that in some cases (keeping all other parameters the same). Rod ratio is another aspect of engine performance, more than just clearing the crank.


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## Elim (Jan 21, 2015)

redfin said:


> View attachment 396842
> 
> 
> This piston posted earlier seems as though it would facilitate some of the discussed topics. Machined squish to increase velocity, equal directed flow towards the center of the chamber to maximize direct pressure on the crank?



A bit like this one...




5.9 Cummins Piston.


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## jar944 (Jan 21, 2015)

Dished pistons on a 2t would be detrimental. Pressure force on the piston does not care what the top shape it is, only the area.

From an aprilia engineer 

"And dished pistons were never tried, there is no logic in them.
They would detach the all-important cooling flow from the piston."


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## wigglesworth (Jan 21, 2015)

Any way you slice it, the whole purpose to cutting a chamber or turning a pop-up is to increase compression. 

A cut chamber will actually increase the compression ratio, by reducing the volume of the chamber. It's a cleaner, and in my eyes, a more efficient way of increasing compression. I can honestly think of no drawbacks to it....

On the other hand, a pop-up piston will increase compression. It does so by pushing the piston up further into the chamber, or, displacing the area inside the chamber with the piston. Volume above the piston at TDC is reduced, but in a much more crude way. Volume in the chamber is somewhat displaced more so than reduced. There are flow disruptions across the crown, that's a fact. Piston weight is reduced which is a good thing

I've personally built several saws done both ways. Ive built strong running pop-up saws, and strong running cut chamber saws. 

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that a pop-up saw can't be fast, or can't make power, but I strongly feel that there is a better way. Yea, it takes more time, care, skill and attention to detail to cut a squish band, but the end result is a cleaner, and in my eyes, more efficient way to reach a common goal, an increased compression ratio. 

Brad, I bust your balls pretty bad about not cutting chambers. If I come off as a prick about it, I apologize. 

The only thing that bothers is your unwillingness to even venture out, to give cutting a squish band a try, before saying there is no benefit. Nothing would tickle me more than to see you just try cutting one for yourself. If you honestly see no need, I guess I should just leave it be....

It shouldn't be about your build style vs Randy's, or mine or anybody's.

But we should all try to be better at what we do. I personally feel if im not going foreword, I'm going backwards...

I'll leave you be from now on, just wanted to say my piece...


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## banana boat (Jan 21, 2015)

What you really need is a "flat top pop up"


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## sawfun (Jan 22, 2015)

Longer rods give more dwell time so you can fill a cylinder more. Great on slow burning fuels like diesel & nitromethane and of course, even helps gas & alcohol engines. Rod angle can be an issue in a V type block as too long a rod will try to push out of the side. I believe some very high (12,000+ rpm) short stroke V8's actually used a short rod.


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## windthrown (Jan 22, 2015)

Longer rods... dwell time... fill a cylinder... meth... alcohol????


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

you forgot tighter chambers


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## les-or-more (Jan 22, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> That wrench says Indian ,same company as the motorcycle ? Never seen an Indian branded tool before .


I obviously don't have your attention to detail, here I wanted to know if it was a left hand Monkey wrench?


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## jar944 (Jan 22, 2015)

sawfun said:


> Longer rods give more dwell time so you can fill a cylinder more. Great on slow burning fuels like diesel & nitromethane and of course, even helps gas & alcohol engines. Rod angle can be an issue in a V type block as too long a rod will try to push out of the side. I believe some very high (12,000+ rpm) short stroke V8's actually used a short rod.



You have that reversed. Longer rods reduce the thrust loads on the piston skirt and cylinder.


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## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Any way you slice it, the whole purpose to cutting a chamber or turning a pop-up is to increase compression.
> 
> A cut chamber will actually increase the compression ratio, by reducing the volume of the chamber. It's a cleaner, and in my eyes, a more efficient way of increasing compression. I can honestly think of no drawbacks to it....
> 
> ...


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## weimedog (Jan 22, 2015)

jar944 said:


> You have that reversed. Longer rods reduce the thrust loads on the piston skirt and cylinder.


 
And therefore vibration as well.


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## sunfish (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> I never did like 350's for a hot rod. Now 400's well I do love them.


My 289 Ford used to eat 350s' fer lunch. 327's, had to watch them and a big block would sometimes get me on the outer end...


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## weimedog (Jan 22, 2015)

A now defunct Italian Motorcycle company, VOR built a long rod 400/450503/530 single back in the late 90's early 2000 era. In 2002 Criss Carr and Kenny Tolbert put one of the 450's stock on their dyno and got 57hp at the rear wheel first time out.. with no changes. Were pushing 60 by the time Kenny got to tune on it a little. Won a couple of those "pro single" flat track races going away.... The Honda's of the time were lucky to get 52hp on the same dyno and that was after being built to the hilt. AMA stepped in and before the Springfield mile had basically made that motor illegal because VOR didn't have enough USA sales to meet the rules... then the companies USA operations manager died of cancer. The company put its assets into giving that young fellow a fighting chance and folded soon after.

Two characteristics of that motor in addition to its power were how little vibration it had and how easy it could deal with 10,000-12500 continuous RPM's.


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## Big_Wood (Jan 22, 2015)

sunfish said:


> My 289 Ford used to eat 350s' fer lunch. 327's, had to watch them and a big block would sometimes get me on the outer end...



Stock for stock? Depends on the application really. A 289 was a screamer so it would put a hurt'n on a 350 in anything lighter weight. Didn't quite understand what you said about the 327 but if you meant you had to watch them cause they'd rag doll your 289 then yes, I agree  anybody who doesn't like a performance 350 has never run a properly built performance 350. The 400 was an absolute POS with it's siamesed cylinders. Didn't want those things sitting in one place piss revving with smoke all over for long . Big blocks are to heavy for nothing. I'm a small block guy myself. I had a 91 Chevy all built to the tits and jacked up. Had a 502 and turbo 400 in it when I got it and swapped it out for an LS1 with multi port and a getrag. Getrag started humming quick so later swapped in a NVG 4500. The LS1 and the NV didn't really get along as far as drivability but once used to it it got better. In the 502's defense it was thrashed and had chunks of piston skirt in the oil pan but ran great still LOL. Probably would have left it if the engine turned out good.


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## sunfish (Jan 22, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> Stock for stock? Depends on the application really. A 289 was a screamer so it would put a hurt'n on a 350 in anything lighter weight. Didn't quite understand what you said about the 327 but if you meant you had to watch them cause they'd rag doll your 289 then yes, I agree


This was in the late 70s'. I was young & dumb, but got lucky when I built that 289! Yes, I lost to a couple 327s', But not bad & not every time... Didn't take much to get a 327 to run right!


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## PULLINmyPOULAN (Jan 22, 2015)

C'mon guys everyone knows MOPAR RULESever ran a built 340?


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## Big_Wood (Jan 22, 2015)

sunfish said:


> This was in the late 70s'. I was young & dumb, but got lucky when I built that 289! Yes, I lost to a couple 327s', But not bad & not every time... Didn't take much to get a 327 to run right!



at least you have done it and know something. sick and tired of the middle age men who never did anything their whole life but still argue like they know. middle age men just hate knowing younger guys have achieved more then them by age 20 LOL they always pull the yer young so think you know everything BS. piss me right off. if i say i know something i promise you i know that thing. i don't pretend to know everything. somehow it seems all the old guys pretend to know everything once they realize a young guy knows way way more then him. the funniest thing is making an old man who "knows it all" look like a fool in front of a bunch of people with facts he didn't know but claimed he knew


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

PULLINmyPOULAN said:


> C'mon guys everyone knows MOPAR RULESever ran a built 340?



Oh yeah. 

71 Demon.......340 with X heads, 4 speed, 456 gears. 

That was before I was smart enough to know what subframe connectors were.

Cracked the windshield off the line......doors got impossible to shut......


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 22, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> Stock for stock? Depends on the application really. A 289 was a screamer so it would put a hurt'n on a 350 in anything lighter weight. Didn't quite understand what you said about the 327 but if you meant you had to watch them cause they'd rag doll your 289 then yes, I agree  anybody who doesn't like a performance 350 has never run a properly built performance 350. The 400 was an absolute POS with it's siamesed cylinders. Didn't want those things sitting in one place piss revving with smoke all over for long . Big blocks are to heavy for nothing. I'm a small block guy myself. I had a 91 Chevy all built to the tits and jacked up. Had a 502 and turbo 400 in it when I got it and swapped it out for an LS1 with multi port and a getrag. Getrag started humming quick so later swapped in a NVG 4500. The LS1 and the NV didn't really get along as far as drivability but once used to it it got better. In the 502's defense it was thrashed and had chunks of piston skirt in the oil pan but ran great still LOL. Probably would have left it if the engine turned out good.



Wanna race ?  this moda has pop ups by the way


----------



## PULLINmyPOULAN (Jan 22, 2015)

Sounds like Mastermind got the full Demon-stration


----------



## Big_Wood (Jan 22, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Wanna race ?  this moda has pop ups by the way
> View attachment 397069



I don't have anything built and don't intend on building anything. I'm convinced building the engines I love so much is why I'm poor LOL into diesels way more now too.


----------



## Big_Wood (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Oh yeah.
> 
> 71 Demon.......340 with X heads, 4 speed, 456 gears.
> 
> ...



What else was done to it? No way a little 340 would do that with what you describe unless the subframe connectors really are that weak in the mopar cars. Everything firewall back is behind the sub frame too so it would be more from uni twist then a weak sub frame. Yer making it sound like the car had a supercharged 440 LOL. Yes, I'm trolling you today


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

LS you say? How about a built 6.0? 






Dished pistons?










Yes, I ported the LS6 heads myself 










Custom ground cam





Billet Yank converter





Going in





My truck







Are we far enough derailed yet?


----------



## Big_Wood (Jan 22, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> LS you say? How about a built 6.0?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like like like!!!!!!! I have to leave now. I'm trying to not go into debt from these damn things again. Next engine I build will be a diesel and it will be after I'm rich from not building engine anymore


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

I can't afford to build cars anymore either. 

That's why I started messing with saws. 



westcoaster90 said:


> What else was done to it? No way a little 340 would do that with what you describe unless the subframe connectors really are that weak in the mopar cars. Everything firewall back is behind the sub frame too so it would be more from uni twist then a weak sub frame. Yer making it sound like the car had a supercharged 440 LOL. Yes, I'm trolling you today



It was a well built 340. Far from stock. 

The car really was pretty weak too. Before I gave up on it, and replaced it with a '69 Dart body (with subframe connectors) even the quarter panels were bent up between the doors and the wheel wells.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 22, 2015)

No pop ups in the 6.0 Brad ?


----------



## PULLINmyPOULAN (Jan 22, 2015)

ED POPLOWSKI wrote


The 355 engine was a bored and stroked 340 production 6-barrel engine block (LA) that we modified for racing use [until 2001].
[The 355 block was common to all racing applications before 2001.] Back then the engine block of choice was the 340 6-barrel block. However, by the late 1970s, 6-barrel blocks were hard to come by and we were scrounging the local junk yards trying to find blocks. It was the same thing for the Pettys. To be honest, we were using standard 340 blocks for dyno development and saving the 6bbl blocks for the race cars.
The reason we wanted to use the 6bbl block was because we had added material to the bulkheads for strength so we could use 4 bolt main caps. Otherwise the only difference between the engines, like you mentioned was carburetion, camshaft, cylinder heads and headers. The NASCAR engine could only use a flat tappet cam (we used a mushroom tappet) and a single 4 bbl carb. The NHRA drag engines could use roller cams and multiple carburetion intake manifolds depending on the class.
Headers were chosen depending on the type of racing we were doing and the engine speed at which we were running. For example, for 1978 our goal for Daytona that year was 600 HP and the engine peaked at 7200 rpm. The 8bbl drag engines peaked at 9600 rpm so therefore the header size and length was a lot different. The IROC engines were basically NASCAR 355 engines. Also, we used dry sump oil systems in NASCAR so there were some internal modifications done to the block to make this work. Those were the major differences between all the series. [Ed Poplawski interview


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

Whenever you guys are ready I'm down for a run.


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

Or you can run my slow stock Z.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> No pop ups in the 6.0 Brad ?


Get this....I had the heads milled to get the 11:1 compression I was after, lol. The bottom end is stock, except for upgraded rod bolts. Most of the rest of the engine are factory parts, chosen from various other LS engines. That includes the lifters, timing gears and chain, intake, injectors, etc. Cam, valve springs, and pushrods are aftermarket.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> View attachment 397073
> 
> Whenever you guys are ready I'm down for a run.


What's that in? CCs?


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

See Brad I always liked you. Lsnation!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> See Brad I always liked you. *Lsnation!*


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

Camaro's motor is a lq9 based 408 12.1 Callie's crank and rods, wiseco pistons gas ported, 1/2 head studs, TfS 235 heads, solid roller, nitrous outlet 300 kit. 
Vette has Afr heads, Cam, built trans run 11's.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> Camaro's motor is a lq9 based 408 12.1 Callie's crank and rods, wiseco pistons gas ported, 1/2 head studs, TfS 235 heads, solid roller, nitrous outlet 300 kit.
> Vette has Afr heads, Cam, built trans run 11's.


Now we're talkin'!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 22, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Get this....I had the heads milled to get the 11:1 compression I was after, lol. The bottom end is stock, except for upgraded rod bolts. Most of the rest of the engine are factory parts, chosen from various other LS engines. That includes the lifters, timing gears and chain, intake, injectors, etc. Cam, valve springs, and pushrods are aftermarket.



That is nice the alum heads let you get away with that with pump gas ,my half a pop up pistons(one side is domed) make around 11-11.5 with iron 906 casting magnum heads on the 440 ,if i put the timing where it runs the best ,it is a rattling spark knocker under heavy load with 92 pump gas.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> you forgot tighter chambers



Is that Marilyn's sister?


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

Brad who does the tuning on your truck? We just did a real similar build on my buddies 04 it seems to run real good but I think we need more converter. 3000 and 4.56's on 35's makes it drive nice still. It runs real good on a 100 shot for a lifted 4x4 pick up. My Duramax runs 13.8 in the 1/4 mile I think he might get me.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> Brad who does the tuning on your truck? We just did a real similar build on my buddies 04 it seems to run real good but I think we need more converter. 3000 and 4.56's on 35's makes it drive nice still. It runs real good on a 100 shot for a lifted 4x4 pick up. My Duramax runs 13.8 in the 1/4 mile I think he might get me.


I tuned it myself using EFI Live. I'm sure I have more time in the tune than the build and install!


----------



## Fire8 (Jan 22, 2015)

I'v got a dodge Cummins that loves blowing the door off those gas burner


----------



## Snap (Jan 22, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I tuned it myself using EFI Live. I'm sure I have more time in the tune than the build and install!


Watching Street Outlaws you'd think it was a 5 minute undertaking.
The wonders of tv and an unlimited budget.


----------



## sunfish (Jan 22, 2015)

PULLINmyPOULAN said:


> C'mon guys everyone knows MOPAR RULESever ran a built 340?


Nothing wrong with that! 340s' & 440s' are two of my favorites...


----------



## Snap (Jan 22, 2015)

sunfish said:


> Nothing wrong with that! 340s' & 440s' are two of my favorites...


Mom got to drive a factory prepped drag version of a Hemi Coronet in 1965. Sunoco 260 was cheap..
She only tells about part of the adventure meeting up with a SS Chevelle on the Boulevard.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

Snap said:


> Watching Street Outlaws you'd think it was a 5 minute undertaking.
> The wonders of tv and an unlimited budget.


I'm sure it's a lot less work when deliverability isn't as important. Plus, I'm sure he's much more skilled and experienced at it.


----------



## Tractorsaw1 (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> Or you can run my slow stock Z.
> View attachment 397074


I want to hear about the truck in the back ground


----------



## tacomatrd98 (Jan 22, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> LS you say? How about a built 6.0?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bet that rear end just loves you. lol. I see enough of them with problems with just the 5.3 abusing it. Nice truck BTW.


----------



## Termite (Jan 22, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> I bet that rear end just loves you. lol. I see enough of them with problems with just the 5.3 abusing it. Nice truck BTW.



Don't ya love those Chevy "10bolts". In a truck no less!!


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

Tractorsaw1 said:


> I want to hear about the truck in the back ground


Pops 72 c10 factory 4x4. Has a little 350 with a small .480 lift can. Drives real nice. He uses it mostly to carry his little 10ft jon boat in the bed for close small fishing holes. He did drive it to Daytona a couple months back though. 2 hour drive from our house.


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

What alot of people don't know is Gm put 14 bolts in certain models and you can rob them for when the 10 bolts break. 6 lug and all. 14 and up 1500's have 12 bolt now.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2015)

My 390 & 427 Ford Mustangs were competitive with about anything back in the day that was not tubbed. You had to know how to drive a big block, or you would just go up in smoke, there was not launch control nonsense.

There were no AM heads or stroker kits back then, and if you bought 30 or 60 over pistons, re balancing was very expensive. My short blocks were stock, except that the 427 was a Holman & Moody and the crank had been cut 10 & 20.

We used steel shim head gaskets to kick the compression from 10.5 to 11.0 (Ford sold them along with the plugs for the pollution control, which were intended for using the parts on older cars).

I used a drill & some grinders to ensure the intake and head ports aligned.

All of the engines my brother and I built had Mallory Photo Cell ignition (got rid of the points), TRW double roller timing chains, Holley Double pumper carbs and Hooker headers.

I fine tuned the timing by taking it out on the street and jumping on it in 1st & second, stop, move the dist a little, try it again, stop when I could not get it to feel any stronger.

Before I put the traction bars on the 427 Mustang I got beat by a built 340 Duster, a built 350 Camaro and a 428 in an old Ford coupe. After I put the traction bars on it I never lost a race.

The 390 Mustang was even faster. It is the only car I never lost a race with (I'd race anyone). It beat a bunch of cars including a 440 six pack Superbee with Headers, traction bars and MT tires. Unfortunately, I recked it when I banged second gear and lost control, did a 180, went across the road and split a telephone pole in half. I had 325 gears in that car with a close ratio four speed, so 1st gear took me to 70 MPH (engine at 6800 RPM). It had a soft worn out suspension (I put helper springs in the rear) and it just launched great w/o gears or traction bars. Did not corner, but great wt transfer.

The 427 in the 70 Boss Body was a better all around car, it cornered well and went straight great. I had BFG Radial T/As all around (G-60X15), they were the only wide radial tires you could buy at the time, and BFG raced them. They looked nice on the keystone Mags.

The attached is a scanned pic, don't know how to turn it, sorry!


----------



## DeckSetter (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> What alot of people don't know is Gm put 14 bolts in certain models and you can rob them for when the 10 bolts break. 6 lug and all. 14 and up 1500's have 12 bolt now.


Never heard that before, that's good to know. Any particular option package that got that?

I had to get a new ring and pinion for my 10 bolt a couple months back. Pinion nut stripped the threads right off the gear. Mine is an 00 z71 5.3 with factory 4.10 axles and the np246 auto 4x4 transfer case.... aka gas hog. It's 2-3mpg worse than my old 4.8 4x4 with the manual shift case and 3.73s.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 22, 2015)

Geeze...
All I got is a pickup...
Wif no funny numbers or anything...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Same here........it's just an old Chevy......


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 22, 2015)

You guys don't know nuthin about real power. 990cc of fire breathing grunt. 
I reckon when I put the 385 in the tray I double the horsepower.


----------



## M&Rtree (Jan 22, 2015)

Can't say I've ever seen one of them killa, suzuki?


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 22, 2015)

i want one!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

I'd love to get one of those in the mail.


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 22, 2015)

M&Rtree said:


> Can't say I've ever seen one of them killa, suzuki?


Pretty much, it's actually a maruti. It's a Zook built in India under licence, from the 90's when they wouldn't meet safety/EPA restrictions many places. 
Weighs 800kg and with lower crawl gears in the transfer it's pretty amazing for a nearly stock vehicle. (Although appalling over 50mph on tarmac)


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 22, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> You guys don't know nuthin about real power. 990cc of fire breathing grunt.
> I reckon when I put the 385 in the tray I double the horsepower. View attachment 397125


That thing is cool..
But you couldn't shoe horn my ass into it with grease...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Yeah.......you are a big rascal.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah.......you are a big rascal.


Sorta limits my choices in trucks....


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 22, 2015)

I can't fit in an original Zook ute, but the maruti is like an "extra cab". 
My 6' frame fits and I can squeeze a 346 behind the seats. 
Width is a different story!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> I bet that rear end just loves you. lol. I see enough of them with problems with just the 5.3 abusing it. Nice truck BTW.


From what I understand, the weakest length in these 10-bolts is the carrier. I put a Detroit Truetrac in this one with a set of 4:30 gears. Knock on wood, but so far so good and 97K miles.


----------



## chris zautner (Jan 22, 2015)

here is one of my drag bikes this is a 1983 gs1100e with a 1428 engine put in it with a bored out head running on VP c-12 makes over 200 Hp to the wheel


----------



## chris zautner (Jan 22, 2015)

heres a link to a video of it runing


----------



## Ray Bell (Jan 22, 2015)

chris zautner said:


> heres a link to a video of it runing



Wicked!!


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 22, 2015)

Ray Bell said:


> Wicked!!


+1


----------



## chris zautner (Jan 22, 2015)

here is my other drag bike this a 2009 suzuki hayabusa with lots of mods done to it. oh the picture says proof on it because it came of the wesite lebanon valley dragway, the dragway takes pictures for you so you could buy them. they put proof on it so nobody could screen shot it print the picture out.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

um chainsaw?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

What's a chainsaw?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> um chainsaw?


Yes. I use my truck to haul my chainsaws


----------



## bwalker (Jan 22, 2015)

A popup piston IMO is a bad idea and for several reasons. One of which is the the fact rings will run hotter when you decrease the distance between the ring and the combustion chamber.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Well I did up a 044 today that rocked my world........and I'm not easily impressed anymore.


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 22, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> From what I understand, the weakest length in these 10-bolts is the carrier. I put a Detroit Truetrac in this one with a set of 4:30 gears. Knock on wood, but so far so good and 97K miles.


Pretty much. 2 issues with those rear end that I see often even in trucks that don't you're or haul any weight. Spider gears pit and disintegrate and the cross pin egg shapes the hole in the carrier eventually breaking the bolt. When that cross pin comes out it gets ugly! Seen a few with pitted bearing races but that is rare. 

If you still have stock axle shafts you may want to upgrade them though. The hardening on them isn't all that good and the axle/wheel bearing tends to wear a groove in them


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 23, 2015)

That sounds like great news Randy, I guess the Chessman never gives up on strategy!


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 23, 2015)

Randy, I think everyone went to bed early for U to make a statement like that and not get more reaction!!!

Looking forward to the video!


----------



## Stihlman441 (Jan 23, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> You guys don't know nuthin about real power. 990cc of fire breathing grunt.
> I reckon when I put the 385 in the tray I double the horsepower. View attachment 397125


 
Ha get out of them pines you should not be there
So they say anyway


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well I did up a 044 today that rocked my world........and I'm not easily impressed anymore.


You did the hd2 filter and dual port muffler to it i bet 




Oh hi Mike


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 23, 2015)

And an Oregon Bar, and triple port exhaust!!!


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 23, 2015)

Stihlman441 said:


> Ha get out of them pines you should not be there
> So they say anyway


I was slashing firebreaks in november when I took that pic, think they are still there...... But they are right on the boundary of what has been burnt.


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'd love to get one of those in the mail.


That could be arranged Randy will,put one in an overnight bag


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 23, 2015)

chris zautner said:


> heres a link to a video of it runing



Nice bike I want one


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

er pop up?


----------



## Paragon Builder (Jan 23, 2015)

It's been years since I had a flat top. My ears are too big.


----------



## nmurph (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well I did up a 044 today that rocked my world........and I'm not easily impressed anymore.



Dished piston with a CAT muffler? I like the way you think outside the box.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 23, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Sorta limits my choices in trucks....


I know the feeling.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> er pop up?



Of course........every morning.


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 23, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> LS you say? How about a built 6.0?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So how slow is it?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 23, 2015)

stihlaficionado said:


> So how slow is it?


Jump to 1:10. I'd love to have more lope with a bigger cam, but can't sacrifice that much bottom end torque in a 4x4 with 33" tires. I've never had it on the strip, but should run high 13s.

Truck Idle & 0-60:


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well I did up a 044 today that rocked my world........and I'm not easily impressed anymore.



Lower transfers and higher intake than normal?


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 23, 2015)

Stihl working hard said:


> Nice bike I want one



yep, im on the internet looking. I thought I was done with bikes.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

komatsuvarna said:


> Lower transfers and higher intake than normal?


whats normal?


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 23, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> whats normal?



Depends on who's running the carbide lol.

Randy knows what my definition of normal is on a 44....I think.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 23, 2015)

stihlaficionado said:


> So how slow is it?





Mastermind said:


> Of course........every morning.


I resemble that remark!


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

but randy's not normal


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 23, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> but randy's not normal




I know! That guy.....




Actually, I wasn't gonna ask for the whole cookie...but was hoping he might leave me a few crumbs


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 23, 2015)

The only 044 I've run that really impressed me is Andy's..
They all pretty good, but that one is "Real good"..
Stump made one for a fella in KS that was impressive too in his later days...


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 23, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> yep, im on the internet looking. I thought I was done with bikes.


so what kind of bike you looking for. I know a guy lol


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

I know a feller in NC named Stuart Ruth that builds drag bikes. When Elmer Trett switched from Harley to Kawasaki, it was Stuart Ruth who helped him with that transition.

Stuart never got any notoriety.....


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 23, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Jump to 1:10. I'd love to have more lope with a bigger cam, but can't sacrifice that much bottom end torque in a 4x4 with 33" tires. I've never had it on the strip, but should run high 13s.
> 
> Truck Idle & 0-60:



Between the saws & the truck your neighbors must be tone deaf


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

komatsuvarna said:


> *Depends on who's running the carbide* lol.
> 
> Randy knows what my definition of normal is on a 44....I think.



A very good point. This saw is a good example of different desires in a saw. It's got a chit ton of torque.......and still four strokes at 15,500.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> A very good point. This saw is a good example of different desires in a saw. It's got a chit ton of torque.......and still four strokes at 15,500.




Your supposed to leave some raker in front of the cutter....


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 23, 2015)

Yes.. Very helpful..


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Your supposed to leave some raker in front of the cutter....



What's a raker?


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 23, 2015)




----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2015)

seems to hold the rpms in the cut pretty good with that baby bar


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

It wasn't so impressive with the 28"......


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> What's a raker?


----------



## Joe Kidd (Jan 23, 2015)

stihlaficionado said:


> Between the saws & the truck your neighbors must be tone deaf


Brad your camera's sensor has quite a few bad pixels, right in the center. I couldn't read your tag.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Jan 23, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 397345


Hell i've been doing it backwards


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It wasn't so impressive with the 28"......




That is why i like bigger pistons ,saw sounds good though sir .


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> That is why i like bigger pistons ,saw sounds good though sir .



I hear ya Brian.......gotta remember though......

That ain't no wimpy piece of cedar.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I hear ya Brian.......gotta remember though......
> 
> That ain't no wimpy piece of cedar.


And there was smoke coming off the bar tip...
Jon forget to put bar oil in it again??

Seems to take a hang up without stalling out..
Sounded pretty lively..


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

It's was raining a lot more than it looked like.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I hear ya Brian.......gotta remember though......
> 
> That ain't no wimpy piece of cedar.


I hear ya ,not rotten either ...........

the other half was not drug out yet


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 23, 2015)

Looks pretty strong, should do real well with a 24" bar, save the 28" for the 046!


----------



## CR888 (Jan 23, 2015)

My next M/Mind saw is gonna be a new 441R-cm. l think its a model that the monkey has a fine recipe for and does particually well. So you end up with a super smoothe saw with silky smooth AV, foolproof Mtronics, top air filter and 70cc's of monkey porded madness!! What is not to like about that!!


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 23, 2015)

Randy said: "It wasn't so impressive with the 28"......"

I think U been runnin that 661 too much!

Next time, test it after U work on a 261!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Randy said: "It wasn't so impressive with the 28"......"
> 
> I think U been runnin that 661 too much!
> 
> Next time, test it after U work on a 261!



Just trying to be realistic.

It was so impressive with that 20, that I expected more with the 28.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Just trying to be realistic.
> 
> It was so impressive with that 20, that I expected more with the 28.


Want me send you a chunk of rotten cedar ?,i still have 4 feet off that bad end laying next to the mill area lol


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2015)

Randy, nobody on the Rescue Thread can figure out what FHC means.
Could you help us out?
Thx
John


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Want me send you a chunk of rotten cedar ?,i still have 4 feet off that bad end laying next to the mill area lol



Brian......you are a true and dear friend.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Randy, nobody on the Rescue Thread can figure out what FHC means.
> Could you help us out?
> Thx
> John


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm gonna get banned.......again.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna get banned.......again.


Probably not. Judge Judy said no chance of banishment if you have over 25,000 posts, so you should be able to post anything by now.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

Oh.....then why did they ban me last time?????

I feel so phucked.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Oh.....then why did they ban me last time?????
> 
> I feel so phucked.


I wouldn't take it personally Randy, you were probably banned by that guy with the identity crisis that is no longer a mod. Lol


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

It's true.......but I deserved it.


----------



## Tree Sling'r (Jan 23, 2015)

I've had many of flashbacks of builders past reading this thread, lol.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 23, 2015)

Tree Sling'r said:


> I've had many of flashbacks of builders past reading this thread, lol.



There's been a lot of water (and people) under the bridge here.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

Y'all sure are some old bastards. 

Plus potato.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 23, 2015)

tater chip


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> tater chip



Reported.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 23, 2015)

ignored


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)




----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 23, 2015)

............that don't fit..........404 loop best i can do


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

WooT WooT


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It wasn't so impressive with the 28"......





Jiminey Christmas man.....

U do rakers with a 4 1/2" grinder??




Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 397345



Tell John I said to study this detailed drawing my friend made.


----------



## gary courtney (Jan 24, 2015)

picco


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Jiminey Christmas man.....
> 
> U do rakers with a 4 1/2" grinder??
> 
> ...



We just wanna get the wood cut........we ain't playing patty cake with 8 X 8s.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> We just wanna get the wood cut........we ain't playing patty cake with 8 X 8s.



Like I said before, you start on one end, I'll start on the other. When u get done, meet me at the truck, I'll be there drinking whiskey....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Like I said before, you start on one end, I'll start on the other. When u get done, meet me at the truck, I'll be there drinking whiskey....



We gonna be ripping logs into something useful? 

Or just cutting off little slices making voommmmm voooommmmmm sounds?


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Y'all sure are some old bastards.
> 
> Plus potato.


I used to try to pick up girls at Daytona Beach with a potato down my pants, but I didn't have much luck with it down the back of my pants until I pulled it out and put it down the front.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)




----------



## blsnelling (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> We gonna be ripping logs into something useful?
> 
> Or just cutting off little slices making voommmmm voooommmmmm sounds?


That's quote material right there, lol


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 24, 2015)

I always thought the thin cuts were for the pizza oven ,I likes pizza ..


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

tldr


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 24, 2015)

Lol, it's funny. When I first saw your sig I thought it said scheduling New York and thought Randy must be very busy.


Mastermind said:


>


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, it's funny. When I first saw your sig I thought it said scheduling New York and thought Randy must be very busy.



Did you find your FHC?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Did you find your FHC?



I think it's next to your BFH.


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

has anyone seen my bfh and hoof rasp. ive got porting to do and pop up to spin.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

tlandrum said:


> has anyone seen my bfh and hoof rasp. ive got porting to do and pop up to spin.....




Pics of the spin? 

I like a good solid spin once in a while.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 24, 2015)

tlandrum said:


> has anyone seen my bfh and hoof rasp. ive got porting to do and pop up to spin.....


Lol, I think you guys bring a whole new dimension to BFH. Does BFH suggest big phookin hoof rasp?
Just askin
John


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, I think you guys bring a whole new dimension to BFH. Does BFH suggest big phookin hoof rasp?
> Just askin
> John



This guy......^^^^^^^^^^

This guy is a genius.


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

the 562 has a pretty small cylinder so ill be using the sfh on it ,and the bfh for removal and installation.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> We gonna be ripping logs into something useful?
> 
> Or just cutting off little slices making voommmmm voooommmmmm sounds?



Oh you're just jealous you can't run with the big dogs.... Hahahahaha


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Oh you're just jealous you can't run with the big dogs.... Hahahahaha



Well.........maybe. 

I'm pretty jealous of your chain sharpening skills.

I'm also jealous of your operating abilities. 

But.........I'm not at all jealous of your complete lack of artistic talent. 

I've seen your drawings of bees.........and they suck.


----------



## Mike from Maine (Jan 24, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Randy, nobody on the Rescue Thread can figure out what FHC means.
> Could you help us out?
> Thx
> John


That place is pretty dead.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well.........maybe.
> 
> I'm pretty jealous of your chain sharpening skills.
> 
> ...



I'm heart broke.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jan 24, 2015)

Are you guys really this bored??? I know John is snowed in,,, and half in the tank Sheesh And he cant find HIS BFG's Big _ _ _king Glasses,,,, so what's up fellers is ths the new romper room thread!!!


Mastermind said:


> Well.........maybe.
> 
> I'm pretty jealous of your chain sharpening skills.
> 
> ...


 
And those bees really suck?????

What kind are they??? oh hey I get it!!! They must be LFSingB's right!!!!


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

http://www.spinning-popup-generator.com/


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

just in case someone needs one lol


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> I'm heart broke.



See what I mean? 

Geeezzzzzooooo Flip that's ugly. 



RiverRat2 said:


> Are you guys really this bored??? I know John is snowed in,,, and half in the tank Sheesh And he cant find HIS BFG's Big _ _ _king Glasses,,,, so what's up fellers is ths the new romper room thread!!!
> 
> 
> And those bees really suck?????
> ...



Sup Rick? 

How's tricks?. 

You need to be in KY this year for Wiggsfest.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

tlandrum said:


> http://www.spinning-popup-generator.com/



Oh Bradley..........


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

tlandrum said:


> just in case someone needs one lol



Repped !!!!


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> WooT WooT


 
You know thats right!!!! Woot Woot!!!! is always good!!!!!



Mastermind said:


> See what I mean?
> 
> Geeezzzzzooooo Flip that's ugly.
> 
> ...


 
working more than I want to,,, but bidness is good right now

Yeah when is it??? , guess I need to bring tha missus and a mess of brisket/ribs/sausage's/sauce and stuff!!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

Sept.......

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/west-ky-gtg-2015.270857/

If y'all show up with the sort of grub y'all brung to my home.......we'll forget about the damn saws.

Randy B usually makes a big pot of Gumbo for Saturday night.........it's a blast.


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Jan 24, 2015)

Hidden in the back of the garage i have a bunch of flattops, a few forged cranks, 2 buckets of X rods, some pink rods, closed port heads, 4 bolt blocks, a 283, 327, even a complete 350hp motor for the tow truck to pull the race cars.
Oh yeah, i do have 8 popups on a camaro motor
I have to stay away from this stuff do to a previous cast iron addiction.

With a selection of pistons i feel that i am well balanced person, contrary to what my wife says.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

A couple sets of heads, and a few double pump Holleys is all I have left.......


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Jan 24, 2015)

A few Holleys, one has been worked by an old man that did work on Winston cup carbs. Worked distributors, cam chain sets and a couple of degree wheels. One is 14" in dia.

Need any head stands? They hold the head at a nice angle for porting.

I have too much stuff!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

I do have a set of Hooker CP headers from a '75 Chevy Luv that I once raced......

In good shape......


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I do have a set of Hooker CP headers from a '75 Chevy Luv that I once raced......
> 
> In good shape......


Is that all that's left the pile of rust? Lol. They rusted horribly!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

This truck was from Texas......and had zero rust. Like you, I've seen a lot of em rusted in two.

I cut it in half and narrowed the rear frame rails. It was running a 383 stroker, a TH-400, and a shortened 9" Ford rear end with 4:56 gears. For wheel tubs I used another factory set and widened the original ones......looked pretty cool. The seats and steering column, and console was from a late model Camaro, and I made the dash from sheet metal. I used a Studebaker Speedometer, along with some other neat stuff inside.

It was running in the low 7s (1/8 mile) with hooking up issues. I ended up selling it when I started building my house....

To give you an idea of how it looked.......I traded a '56 Chevy 210 for the paint job.

I've got some pics of it somewhere.......one day I'll dig em out and scan them.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 24, 2015)

I hate you guys!!
"I have a potty mouth"
Lol
John


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

tldr


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> This truck was from Texas......and had zero rust. Like you, I've seen a lot of em rusted in two.
> 
> I cut it in half and narrowed the rear frame rails. It was running a 383 stroker, a TH-400, and a shortened 9" Ford rear end with 4:56 gears. For wheel tubs I used another factory set and widened the original ones......looked pretty cool. The seats and steering column, and console was from a late model Camaro, and I made the dash from sheet metal. I used a Studebaker Speedometer, along with some other neat stuff inside.
> 
> ...


Sounds absolutely AMAZING! Got any pics of it?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

Old pics somewhere.......but not very many.

If I can find any I'll scan them in. That was before I had a digital camera. lol


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

I had just gotten it all finished.......probably the second trip to the drag strip. 

I pulled in and unloaded the truck from the trailer, and took the hood off and leaned it up against the back of the truck I was towing with. The hood didn't have a scoop yet, and it ran a few tenths faster without it. I made a shakedown pass and pulled in beside my tow rig. A guy asked me if I would mind pulling up a little so he could better fit in behind me.......without thinking about my hood I got in and pulled forward about 15 feet. Yeah.....my nice shiny newly finished hood was rolled up in a ball under the trailer.


----------



## Milkman31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I had just gotten it all finished.......probably the second trip to the drag strip.
> 
> I pulled in and unloaded the truck from the trailer, and took the hood off and leaned it up against the back of the truck I was towing with. The hood didn't have a scoop yet, and it ran a few tenths faster without it. I made a shakedown pass and pulled in beside my tow rig. A guy asked me if I would mind pulling up a little so he could better fit in behind me.......without thinking about my hood I got in and pulled forward about 15 feet. Yeah.....my nice shiny newly finished hood was rolled up in a ball under the trailer.


Did you race at the valley?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 24, 2015)

Crossville mostly.....

Pulling back up the hill from Buffalo Valley sucked.


----------



## Milkman31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Crossville mostly.....
> 
> Pulling back up the hill from Buffalo Valley sucked.


Lol!! I bet.


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 24, 2015)

buffalo valley had a friggin dip in the track


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 24, 2015)

I can only guess who that dip was


----------



## jar944 (Jan 25, 2015)

This is from another forum, and was a response to why (4t) compression ratios have doubled since the 30's, but interesting and slightly relevant 

http://www.dynotechresearch.com/blog/archives.asp?chosenMonth=5&chosenYear=2012#282
From Kevin to Jim:

British racing singles of the 1930s started life with flat-topped pistons and compression in the 4.5 - 6-to-one range. This allowed them to pretty much copy the hemi 2V chamber pioneered by Fiat in their 1922 GP car engine, setting the two valves at a 90-100 degree included angle. But fuel octane number rose through the 1930s as Britain legalized use of the violent poison/antiknock tetraethyl lead and combined best available leaded gasoline with 50% "benzole", which was a by-product of coke production. Benzole was a catch-as-catch-can mixture of benzene, toluene, and xylene - all highly anti-knock aromatic compounds. With all that new ON, compression ratios could go up. It was a lot cheaper to make a new piston than a new head, so up, up went piston domes. Combustion had never been all that fast in OHV engines - there was no way to have squish as in flatheads/sidevalves. Along came Harry Weslake with a little help from the tangential intake port, which converted high intake velocity into rotary swirl around the cylinder axis. THis "stored" intake energy for later use as turbulence to accelerate combustion. Now a little math - making a true hemi chamber exactly doubles the surface area of the combustion bowl, as compared with the area of a disc whose diameter is the cylinder bore. And adding the matching piston dome did something similar to piston crown area - increased it a lot. This put piston temperature up, discouraging people from increasing bores and decreasing strokes for a long time. In 1950, here came Pole Leo Kuzmicki, working for Norton. If you imagine the tall piston dome as being made of fudge, he essentially pushed it down, forcing it outward, closer to the head surface everywhere except where valve clearance was needed. In those regions he brought the piston as close to the head as mechanically possible, creating OHV squish for the first time. As he pushed the top of the piston dome down, he created room above the now-flat piston top in which intake motion could persist all the way to TDC without being damped out by friction between moving gas and close-by metal surfaces. He transformed the old, slow "half an orange peel" combustion chamber into a faster-burning, much more compact chamber that was basically just the valve cutouts plus spark-plug area. The greatly improved Norton would have defeated the new Gilera-4s in GP racing that year, but Dunlop tires came apart on a couple of fast tracks and prevented what would otherwise have been runaway wins. Norton came back in 1951 and did the job - beating a potentially much more powerful Gilera. People today, in the 4-valve era, forget this great lesson - that just cramming a bunch of mixture up into a tight, badly-shaped combustion chamber and setting it off does not equal power. Or, as the late Keith Duckworth put it, "People are mesmerized by airflow, never reflecting that they must burn all that air and fuel they are getting into their engines." When Duckworth applied the 4V version of Kuzmicki's concept, the result was a flat-topped piston, a narrow valve angle, and a strict separation between as-close-as-possible squish and the most open, roomy combustion space. When Duckworth applied this concept to his DFV V8 GP car engine of 1967, it was able to defeat higher-revving V-12s. In place of Weslake's tangential intake, he biased his intakes to produce downdraft so that air flowed from the intake valves, across to the far cylinder wall, then down to the pison, across its crown, and back up the near cylinder wall. This, which he called "barrel motion",, is now called "tumble". The problem today is that too few builders realize there must be room in the combustion chamber for the turbulence needed for fast combustion. They just add material to the piston wherever it is easiest until they get the 13.8-to-one or whatever ratio their buddies told them they had to have. The piston now comes so close to the head that there really is NO combustion space. Any tumble-generated turbulence is damped out as the piston rises close to TDC, so they are having to use very long ignition timings for best torque. To a certain extent, this compromise must be tolerated, but the Kuzmicki/Duckworth idea has to be kept in mind at all times; make room for combustion turbulence. In some cases, like the truly terrible 5V Yamahas, the compromise really bites, so you can have either acceleration (from high compression that kills flame speed on top, causing weak peak power) or top-end (by lowering the compression enough to get back some top-end flame speed), but not both. When I asked Claudio Domenicali at Ducati how they have been able to shorten stroke again and again and still have competitive engines, while both Suzuki and Kawasaki have made new, shorter-stroke models that were slower than previous longer-stroke versions, he replied, "I cannot speak for other manufacturers, but in our case, we use a device like a small anemometer, placed in the cylinder. Then we vary the intake downdraft angle and port sizes until we get the tumble motion that our experience shows to be necessary." Sure, nothin' to it! Anyway, that is the modern combustion chamber conundrum in a nutshell. It really hurts in F1, where bore/stroke is 2.5, and they end up with ignition timings up in the 60s. Another problem is a social one. Racers don't mind being considered "advanced", but no one like to be thought "retarded". But where combustion is concerned, the more ignition timing your engine needs, the worse its combustion is revealed to be. Some people just can't get past the old idea that needing a lot of ignition advance is good. The reverse is true. A classic example of a bad engine is the old Honda 450 twin of the 1960s. Its tall piston dome and 78-degree valve angle made it into a heat-gatherer, and air just hates to go into a burning hot cylinder. It is delightful to be rid of air cooling at last! I have to go on another trip weekend after this, but am resolved to write the vaporization article you have asked for thereafter. I've just finished writing a "50-engines book", so there is more time available for other things. KC


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

Interesting reading.

I read this for the 100th time last night....

http://edj.net/2stroke/BellPerformanceTuning/Bell Chapter 3.pdf

Weird......I'm trying to link to chapter 2.....but it takes me to the third chapter.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

Here's a link to all 221 pages......

Chapter 2 is required reading for this discussion. 

http://edj.net/2stroke/BellPerformanceTuning/BELL PERFORMANCE TUNING.pdf


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 25, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Interesting reading.
> 
> I read this for the 100th time last night....
> 
> ...


Awesome reading there Randy now for part 2


----------



## barneyrb (Jan 25, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Here's a link to all 221 pages......
> 
> Chapter 2 is required reading for this discussion.
> 
> http://edj.net/2stroke/BellPerformanceTuning/BELL PERFORMANCE TUNING.pdf



'Nough said.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

barneyrb said:


> 'Nough said.....



Exactly. 

Sure lays it all out there huh?


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jan 25, 2015)

way good stuff!!!!!


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jan 25, 2015)

When I pulled the head off of of my yama-thumper, I primarily cleaned up the casting and machining lines.
And then I sat back thought on it a bit more and decided to cut some little grooves into the intake port.
You'd almost say that I rather crudely rifled it.
took about .050 off the bottom of the carb slide and refiled the notch. probably dropped the E-clip a groove and very slight change of jetting. (been 30 + years, things have gone a bit vague)
Results?
Got rid of that flatness in the bottom half tachometer. Went from having to be 1500 revs from redline, to be lift the wheel by throttle and being pain about it.
Now I had the ability to twist the wick at about any point in the revs and just pick it up.
Fuel economy actually went up a slight bit.
And the best part of it all??
Now it was gracefull enough in it power delivery to pick it up and get on balance totaly from throttle manipulation.
and The payoff from that? 
Now I could get back cozy with the clutch and try out a couple more cogs, while I had some air under that front gum.
Third would just barely still let you bring it back down under power, instead just letting it slam.


----------



## jar944 (Jan 25, 2015)

Dont forget bells book was published in 1983. Combustion chamber design as evolved from a Hemi head.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

The explanation he gives about the benefits of a tight, well fitted squish clearance have not changed though.....


----------



## treesmith (Jan 26, 2015)

Read it, damned good stuff, thanks Randy


----------



## CR888 (Jan 26, 2015)

What happens inside the combustion chamber is out of sight and 'out of mind' for many tuners but enhancing the combustion process is directly related to efficieny/power.l would love to try grinding some grooves into the top of the squishband to see the effects it has on turbulance and flame propergation. l believe this is an area that get overlooked but is very important. Just finding ways to better combustion through squish alteration tests. l am sure Jennings/Bell have not dived deep enough into this subject or asked the right question regarding this.


----------



## jar944 (Jan 26, 2015)

*

Frits Overmars:*
I too use solder: 0,8 mm wire with hollow resin core because that is softer and does not put so much strain on the big-end bearing when it gets flattened. I use two pieces of soldering wire simultaneously, left and right above and parallel to the piston pin, so the piston won't tilt in any way. That gives you the static squish gap.
To find the dynamic gap you need some nerve: just put it together, run it and open it up. My rule of thumb is: 'If I cannot clearly see that the piston has kissed the head, everything is fine'.
I will say a bit more about this later; I am preparing some more text about squish.

The higher the squish velocity, the better. Combustion should be as fast as possible (apart from detonation) and squish turbulence helps.
So are there no negative sides to a high squish velocity? In theory no; in practice the ignition may not be up to it. I will try to explain later.
So here goes.
You must be able to rely on the ignition, even when the electrode gap has gotten on the big side, when the mixture is so weak, rich or diluted that you can hardly ignite it, or when the compression end pressure is high because of good cylinder filling or a high compression ratio.
All parts of the ignition system are important: the spark plug of course, but also the plug lead (never use carbon core leads), the plug cap (never use resistor caps; if there has to be a resistor in the high tension line, it sould be inside the plug, not in the cap, because caps fail), the coil (with Jamathi, Bultaco and Garelli the fat, blue, oil-filled Bosch coils were used despite the fact that they were almost as heavy as the engine. Replacing them with slim Japanese coils cost several hp...)

Let's take a look at the spark plug. What exactly happens there when the coil sends its high tension voltage? The gas molecules between the electrodes are ionized by the high potential. Starting at one of the electrodes, the ions begin to form a conductive channel through the otherwise non-conductive gas and as soon as this channel reaches the other electrode, a connection is established and a current starts to flow: the spark.
The ionisation needs a certain voltage per mm electrode gap, dependent on temperature and pressure of the gas. The squish turbulence can blow the ions away before they have had a chance to form a channel from one electrode to the other. Then, when the channel is finally completed, it is no longer straight but arched, also longer. Because of the required voltage per mm you then need a higher ignition tension.
Some time ago Honda RS125s would not run with more than 0,4 mm electrode gap, whereas Aprilia used 0,7 mm gap. Then Honda offered a kit with a different (better!) ignition system...

Talking about better ignition systems: our fellow forum member Emotracing offers something nice:
an ignition extension. The normal ignition takes care of the ionisation channel; then as soon as the current starts to flow, the Emot-set sends a *big* extra current through this channel. It looks like this: [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]

And if you really want to know all about sparks, look here:


There is one other possible objection against effective squish. When a gas comes in contact with a solid surface, it tries to cling onto it: it forms a boundary layer. This layer of stationary gas is a fairly good heat insulator. The piston crown enjoys this insulation, as the boundary layer protects it from the combustion heat. In theory the squish flow can blow the boundary layer away, exposing the piston directly to the combustion.
But there is always a far greater danger: detonation. The shock waves in a detonating engine are a thousandfold more effective in shaking the boundary layer loose. So I prefer a good squish that speeds up combustion.

If detonation occurs, it happens in the end phase of combustion, when the pressure in the combustion chamber is high and the temperature of the unburnt mixture in the edges of the chamber is raised by the heat radiation of the burning mixture.
Effective squish flings burning parts of the mixture to the edges of the combustion chamber, igniting all mixture before detonation factors there can reach a dangerous level.
Finally a simple advise for junior tuners: make the squish gap so tight that there is no more room for mixture; if it is not there, it cannot detonate 8)

*Institute of TwoStrokes a écrit:*
Frits, Do you think that the torriodal shape has less cyclical variation(less variation between a 'good' and 'bad' combustion cycle)? Allowing more consistent jetting and ignition timing.
The Toroidal shape has proven to give better power; that *might* come from fewer bad combustion cycles. It can be measured, but I have no relevant data available.
*Frits Overmars:*
I have seen a few CFD simulations, that show a great deal of turbulence (small fast spinning eddies) coming off a small radius at the inner edge of the squish band.
CFD programs have improved tremendously over the years, but the saying still applies:
garbage in = garbage out; it all depends on what you feed these programs. I do believe in these
micro-eddies at the inner edge of the squish band though; it is mr. Coanda making himself noticed.

At Aprilia Jan Thiel performed a series of tests with different radii at this edge. The outcome was crystal-clear: R=0 was best and the bigger the radius, the worse the result. It is all the more surprising that Honda has always stuck to a radius (sometimes as large as 5 mm).


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2015)

Tltr!


----------



## jar944 (Jan 26, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Tltr!




*
Frits Overmars:*
My rule of thumb is: 'If I cannot clearly see that the piston has kissed the head, everything is fine'.

The higher the squish velocity, the better. Combustion should be as fast as possible (apart from detonation) and squish turbulence helps.
So are there no negative sides to a high squish velocity? In theory no; in practice the ignition may not be up to it. I will try to explain later.

Finally a simple advise for junior tuners: make the squish gap so tight that there is no more room for mixture; if it is not there, it cannot detonate 8)

At Aprilia Jan Thiel performed a series of tests with different radii at this edge. The outcome was crystal-clear: R=0 was best and the bigger the radius, the worse the result. It is all the more surprising that Honda has always stuck to a radius (sometimes as large as 5 mm).


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Tltr!



That's sorta sad ol buddy.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

CR888 said:


> What happens inside the combustion chamber is out of sight and 'out of mind' for many tuners but enhancing the combustion process is directly related to efficieny/power.l would love to try grinding some grooves into the top of the squishband to see the effects it has on turbulance and flame propergation. l believe this is an area that get overlooked but is very important. Just finding ways to better combustion through squish alteration tests. l am sure Jennings/Bell have not dived deep enough into this subject or asked the right question regarding this.



I think your time would be better spent looking at transfers


----------



## jar944 (Jan 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> That's sorta sad ol buddy.



lol, for some light reading 

482 pages (7000+ posts)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155907-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner

50 pages & 990 posts per locked thread
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t117-gp125-...jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-1-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3173-gp125...jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-2-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t4072-gp125...jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-3-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5121-gp125...-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-4


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I think your time would be better spent looking at transfers



I'd be inclined to agree.......

It's a pretty simple matter to flatten the squish band and set the clearance where detonation is a non issue. 

Figuring out roof angles, port shares, timing numbers, etc.....etc....etc....'

Now that takes some serious dedication to the task.


----------



## redoakneck (Jan 26, 2015)




----------



## wyk (Jan 28, 2015)

*bump*

Er, I mean,

*POP-UP*


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2015)

I've been timing how fast I can do a squish mod from the time I put the jug in the lathe. 

Just did a MS261 in 15 minutes.


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 28, 2015)

Just wondering how chain speed or torque is effected by a pop up


----------



## super3 (Jan 28, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I've been timing how fast I can do a squish mod from the time I put the jug in the lathe.
> 
> Just did a MS261 in 15 minutes.





Hell you'd have 4 of them done b4 I get the cyl squared up.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 28, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I've been timing how fast I can do a squish mod from the time I put the jug in the lathe.
> 
> Just did a MS261 in 15 minutes.



Working Late.


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## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Just wondering how chain speed or torque is effected by a pop up








super3 said:


> Hell you'd have 4 of them done b4 I get the cyl squared up.



After you've done a few hundred you'll get quicker Mike. 



WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Working Late.



I work till 8:00 PM normally.


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## Stihl working hard (Jan 29, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I work till 8:00 PM normally


What time would you start in the morning Randy that's hardcore


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## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2015)

Usually get in the shop about 10 am after I get my emails checked, and my cattle fed.


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