# rip chain



## revans (Mar 4, 2009)

I have a Stihl MS361 chain saw. I also have some trees(poplar) in a ravine which will be impossible to remove. Can I use a ripchain on my saw to cut this wood into 'manageable' slabs so that it will be easier to haul out of the ravine?

Thanks in advance;


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## Little Monkey (Mar 4, 2009)

why not use a normal chain ??
if you only have a ripping chain i guess you could, it will probably work just like a scratching chain, slow but effective


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## BarkBuster20 (Mar 4, 2009)

i will second the motion on the normal chain....dont understand why you would want a rip chain.


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## Freehand (Mar 6, 2009)

I have used rip chains from bailey`s-they seem to work better-i.e. finer cut and much easier on the saw.It is a simple matter to modify a normal cross cut chain to do this.I take a chain that has about 1/2 life left in it-maybe it has seen some rough cutting and is thumbnailed,all the better-you take the cutter geometry from say,25 degrees to something more like 10-15 degrees.Then I take down those rakers an extra 1/4 mm.Smoother cut and works great freehand.


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## mkwish (Mar 7, 2009)

I have done the test on my 'laboratory' mill using a Stihl 075 (111 cc) driving a 1 meter long bar. The best cut done the fastest is always achieved with standard chain, full complement. I wrecked two perfectly good new chains by modifying them to 5 - 10 degree top angle and skip tooth respectively. The very roughest slowest cut was with zero degrees double skip - useless. In fact this chain also made the powerhead use just on twice the fuel and twice the lube oil as the standard angle full compliment chain did.
In the light of this research I am at a loss to understand why there is so much talk about "rip" and "skip tooth" chain when I find no supporting evidence in actual use. Perhaps there is a need for some to act with authority - do your own test if you don't believe me.
I would qualify this by saying that perhaps there is a case for such chains if one was dragging the teeth along the timber grain longitudinally rather than across it in any way. But who ever does that so much that it is worth having a special chain anyway.


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## SilverBox (Mar 7, 2009)

Woodshop has said the same thing in other posts. Let me see if I can find it.

edit: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=84935&highlight=3/8+.325

post #2.

Based on that I've been milling with full comp chisel, the finish is a bit rough, but I have a planer and I'd rather mill it faster. Plus if I take the saw out of the mill, its ready to cut.


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## Freehand (Mar 7, 2009)

*rip chain geometry*

It seems to depend a great deal on exactly what angle of attack you assume.

Alaskan mills tend to cut more or less perpendicular with respect to the grain-"end on" if you will.I have no doubt stock chain angles work best with this rig.

the way I mill -freehand-allows me to"stroke"the grain,getting those long fiberous strands of mill dust.Low cutter angles work well with this system.

Everyone's situation is a little different,but I can swear it works well for me with a medium size,manageable saw-mine's a 268.


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## sawyerloggingon (Mar 7, 2009)

When I was a kid one of the 1st cutting jobs I had was ripping big butt cuts that the chopper couldn't lift. We used normal full comp. I was told to sharpen it a little less of an angle than usual, seemed to work fine.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 7, 2009)

mkwish said:


> I have done the test on my 'laboratory' mill using a Stihl 075 (111 cc) driving a 1 meter long bar. The best cut done the fastest is always achieved with standard chain, full complement. I wrecked two perfectly good new chains by modifying them to 5 - 10 degree top angle and skip tooth respectively. The very roughest slowest cut was with zero degrees double skip - useless. In fact this chain also made the powerhead use just on twice the fuel and twice the lube oil as the standard angle full compliment chain did.
> In the light of this research I am at a loss to understand why there is so much talk about "rip" and "skip tooth" chain when I find no supporting evidence in actual use. Perhaps there is a need for some to act with authority - do your own test if you don't believe me.
> I would qualify this by saying that perhaps there is a case for such chains if one was dragging the teeth along the timber grain longitudinally rather than across it in any way. But who ever does that so much that it is worth having a special chain anyway.



With a 3' bar on an 075, skip chain is unnecessary except maybe in some very hard woods. However if you had a 6' bar and were doing very wide logs it would be more desirable to keep the saw's RPMs (and thus chain speed) up. In smaller wood with an engine with plenty of power, it just causes excess vibration and a rougher cut. A lower angle on the cutter will cut smoother albeit more slowly, so a happy medium must be reached, and this varies from person to person and job to job. I prefer a 5° to 10° angle on semi-round chain for smoothness when ripping boards from cants, and 25° square (top, not square ground) for speed, i.e., for canting logs.


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## BobL (Mar 7, 2009)

To answer the thread question, I support the use of standard chain for a one-of use.



mkwish said:


> I have done the test on my 'laboratory' mill using a Stihl 075 (111 cc) driving a 1 meter long bar. The best cut done the fastest is always achieved with standard chain, full complement. I wrecked two perfectly good new chains by modifying them to 5 - 10 degree top angle and skip tooth respectively. The very roughest slowest cut was with zero degrees double skip - useless. In fact this chain also made the powerhead use just on twice the fuel and twice the lube oil as the standard angle full compliment chain did.


This does not sound right. 

Except for problems with the zero angle chain, this does not sound right.
I would be interested in reading the full procedure of your experiment. (I am an experimental scientist and trained at examining experimental procedures) 

Other info I will need.
What sort of timber (type, how long down, cleanliness etc
What length and width of cut were you timing?
What size/type of chain (gauge, cutter shape, etc)
Full details of your filing method.
The rakers depths would have to be adjusted a long way after doing that conversion. I presume you did that and not just to 0.025"?
BTW what raker depths are you using?

Then list the sequence of events that you did during the conversion. If you don't want to do this publically I'm happy to do this via PM of email

The 5-10 degree top plate full comp chain should give the smoothest cut. This is because each cutter is cuts a little whereas skip chain teeth have to cut more per tooth and so increases the washboard effect. My experience is that skip is only noticeably different in speed in very wide soft logs. The downside in hard Aussie timber is skip chains go blunt quicker, so they have to be sharpened more often. Although there are less cutters, that does not help when you are halfway down a 48" wide hardwood slab. 

Higher top plate cutter angles are designed to cause the cutters to dig in sideways away from the line of cut for cross cutting to deliberately make a wide kerf so the bar does not easily jam. However, when ripping (bar jam is rarely an issue) so high top plate angles increase the washboard effect, unnecessarily widens the kerf, makes more sawdust and uses more fuel than a properly tuned ripping chain. 

For authority look at Will Malloff's book on chainsaw lumber making. I started with full comp chain and read his book after becoming a convert to a well tuned 10º ripping chain.


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## oldsaw (Mar 7, 2009)

Bob, I've got to agree. I have the best luck at about 10 degrees, although I still have some I converted over to 5-7 degrees that I still use, but am working them closer to 10, one sharpening at at time. Kind of best "all around" I've found.

I've done the "convert the chain" but forget the rakers thing before. Actually, the chain was rocked out and I converted it, but my wife interrupted me and I never got back to it. Pulled it off the vise and mounted it up, it was "freshly sharpened", you know.

Mark


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## BobL (Mar 7, 2009)

oldsaw said:


> Bob, I've got to agree. I have the best luck at about 10 degrees, although I still have some I converted over to 5-7 degrees that I still use, but am working them closer to 10, one sharpening at at time. Kind of best "all around" I've found.
> 
> I've done the "convert the chain" but forget the rakers thing before. Actually, the chain was rocked out and I converted it, but my wife interrupted me and I never got back to it. Pulled it off the vise and mounted it up, it was "freshly sharpened", you know.
> 
> Mark



Yep - done that myself a couple of times. 

A ripping chain can be filed at zero top plate angle but filing to exactly zero is quite difficult so what happens is some of the cutters will be a slightly negative angles. This means the chain has no sideways bite and creates a kerf that is narrower than the full width of the taut chain. Thus the chain has to "snake" its way though the kerf consuming additional power and placing additional sideways forces on the drive links in the bar groove and wears the groove faster than necessary. It's therefore better to widen the kerf a little so this does not happen.


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