# H&S for a Timco Cutter and a feller/bucker



## DGDrls (Jul 2, 2007)

Can someone give a quick rundown on the 
procedure used in the field when a Timbco cutter
is working.

I will be overseeing a 3 person crew
with one Timbco, one skidder and a feller/bucker on foot.

In addition to overseeing I need to develop a Health & Safety plan
and need to better understand how the Timbco and Bucker would/do interact.
Yes, I will be speaking with the logger before the project starts,
just looking for some additional thoughts.

Thanks

DGDrls


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## joesawer (Jul 3, 2007)

You are "overseeing" but you have never seen?


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## sILlogger (Jul 3, 2007)

sounds like an educated person just out of college with a forestry degree that has never worked in the woods to me


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## slowp (Jul 3, 2007)

Not sure what you want? I've worked around processors, feller bunchers, etc.
The most important thing is MAKE SURE YOU CAN BE SEEN BY THE OPERATOR
or have someone radio him that you are in the area if there is a radio. They all said my bright yellow hardhat was easy to see. Also, if you can throw far enough, one way to get the operator's attention is to throw a stick so it goes across in front of the cab window. I was told to do this by operators out here and in Wisconsin. Unfortunately, I can't throw so just wore a flourescent orange vest and got their attention from a safe distance. You will need to go over this with the operator. You'll want to keep an eye out for tree scarring, which shouldn't be a problem with a good operator, and mud.
Some machine operators seem to get in a trance and it can be hard to get their attention. You must be patient. I can't stress enough how important it is to stay a safe distance away. A few processor operators did not seem to know they had a REVERSE gear on their machine, and would mow down trees instead of working around the leave trees. However, sometimes they can't work their way in to cut a tree without taking a "leave" tree. You will have to learn to understand how much spacing they need, unless it is a clear cut. If you have slopes, different operators have different comfort levels on what they'll work on. Also, don't get too jealous when it is 100 degrees out and you are outdoors and they are in an air conditioned cab listening to books on tape.:biggrinbounce2: 

If you are working with hand fallers, meet with them prior to starting up over how you will approach them when working. I always climb up above the fallers and approach them from the uphill side. Once again, I'm wearing bright clothing. I am also looking for trees that are hanging up ( stay away from them) and also wait a while after a tree has been felled to approach the faller.
I also wait for them to acknowledge that I am there. Sometimes limbs fall out after the tree has landed or another tree will spring back. I've also got a place scoped out to run to just in case something really goes wrong. Just go over all this with your operators, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Nobody wants you to get hurt. I also have a "For Emergency Use Only" whistle attached to my vest. Haven't had to use it so far. Hope this helps a bit.


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## DGDrls (Jul 3, 2007)

*sILlogger*

_"sounds like an educated person" Yes_ "just out of college" 2nd degree 18 months ago"with a forestry degree"No  "that has never worked in the woods to me" lots of woods time, just not all related to timber harvesting, been a land surveyor for 24 years, can run a saw fairly well and climbed when I was younger. 

I see that you have experience as an operator from your profile.
If your operating a Timbco with a feller/bucker on the ground,
what are you looking for from him as far as communication, limbing/topping
and safety?

DGDrls


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## DGDrls (Jul 3, 2007)

*Thank's slowp*

I like the whistle idea

DGDrls


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## sILlogger (Jul 4, 2007)

DGDrls said:


> _"sounds like an educated person" Yes_ "just out of college" 2nd degree 18 months ago"with a forestry degree"No  "that has never worked in the woods to me" lots of woods time, just not all related to timber harvesting, been a land surveyor for 24 years, can run a saw fairly well and climbed when I was younger.
> 
> I see that you have experience as an operator from your profile.
> If your operating a Timbco with a feller/bucker on the ground,
> ...



considering we do all the logging around here with a chainsaw i'd tell the timbco to go dive off the hill so i can watch it roll to be bottom, but on a serious note, not sure what sort of job you are on, but i would tell the operator to get a short headstart on the the job to get a jump on the topper and skidder, tell the topper to stay 2-3 tree lengths away from the machine, give them all a radio if possible, go over some simple hand signals so that everybody knows what is going on. the whistle idea is pretty good, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the topper to have on a high vis shirt and of course a hard hat. the best way to come into a job is from the log yard because the skidder should see u first(might even give u a ride) and then u know u are starting the farthest away from the machine and will prolly be coming in from behind it. u will prolly come to the topper first, which isn't as risky as coming up to the cutting machine because the topper won't be dropping trees. as for approaching the machine-if no radio is present- approach them from a side in which u can be seen from a distance and away from the side that the tree will be thrown.

btw: remind them to have the idiot switch turned off, and the brain turned on along with with the common sense accessory


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## joesawer (Jul 4, 2007)

Gotta love it.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 4, 2007)

joesawer said:


> Gotta love it.



So, any bets on how long before this guy gets hurt?


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## DGDrls (Jul 4, 2007)

*Thanks Guys*

I'll try to follow up when the project is finished.

Appreciate the input!

DGDrls


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## joesawer (Jul 5, 2007)

DGDrls said:


> I like the whistle idea
> 
> DGDrls



Look, if you are going to be health and safety for these guys, it has already been all written down and made into law by other highly educated and highly inexperianced people before. Maybe you have heard of it, it is called OSHA. According to osha saw operators must stay in communication with some one. The sound of the saw does not meet the requirements. If the operator is not in visuale contact with some one, the whistle meets the minimum requirement. If some one can hear it. Not very effective with enclosed cab machines.
I believe Timbcos have decals all over them that tell the minimum distance to stay away. 
Good luck, Remember that your degrees and survey crew time don't equal time in the woods logging.


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## slowp (Jul 6, 2007)

joesawer said:


> requirements. If the operator is not in visuale contact with some one, the whistle meets the minimum requirement. If some one can hear it. Not very effective with enclosed cab machines.
> I believe Timbcos have decals all over them that tell the minimum distance to stay away.
> Good luck, Remember that your degrees and survey crew time don't equal time in the woods logging.




The machines pretty much all have STAY BACK 300 FEET on them. One thing I forgot to mention, the ones I've been around, when they have seen you and want you to approach, will drop the sawhead and throttle down. I was watching fireworks the other night and was thinking I could use some of those rockets to get the attention of operators. 

A really good and entertaining site, I've got it bookmarked at work but not here, is _The Idaho Logging Safety News_ If there are any other sites out there as good, I'd be interested. 

Since when is education a bad thing? Most of the second and third generation owner/equipment operators have degrees of some sort. Their folks insisted on it. There was a rumor that there was a cutter who was a burnt out opera singer. A lot of them tried doing some other line of work, but missed being in the woods, and returned.

I hope we've come beyond the stage of "Here's the saw, don't get hurt. Bye." that was done to me. Luckily, IN FORESTRY SCHOOL, we went over running a saw just a little bit, but I still did a lot of stupid things with it.

I'm out checking contract stuff 5 days a week, bad weather, good weather, (except took today off) and everybody, logger or not, works together to keep everybody safe! Yesterday we had a tail tree bending like a fishing rod, EVERYONE down in the brush had their eyes on it while turns were being yarded in. So, I would think that experienced folks, and let's forget about the education thing, would be willing to help others so they don't have to rely on being lucky and redoing all the stupid things that we've done.


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## sILlogger (Jul 6, 2007)

i have nothing against an education, h*ll ive got one. educations are great but it sure does stick in my craw' when someone with an education in something that has never done it walks up to someone that has done it all their life and tells them how to do it!!!! or tells them that they are going it wrong. i'm all for learning better ways or new ways of doing things, might save my life some day. but if u have never done it.......don't tell me what im doing.....ive even helped to teach people IF they want to learn.....


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## DGDrls (Jul 6, 2007)

*Respectfully*

sILlogger,

Who in this thread indicated anything related to "_when someone with an education in something that has never done it walks up to someone that has done it all their life and tells them how to do it!!!! or tells them that they are going it wrong_."

I certainly did not, I only asked for some help. I wanted some input from people who actually do this work. I can find tons of OSHA rules and our company has a "logging policy". Those are good on paper but I wanted the real skinny from actual loggers other than those I'm going to be working with. 

Now if your just venting, well that's a different story.

DGDrls


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## sILlogger (Jul 6, 2007)

definitely just stating an opinoin, wasn't pinpointing it on anyone. ive read some of the OSHA material, and i can see where u would want the opinions of the people who actually do the work because alot the osha stuff is a joke, atleast i think so. help and good times is what we are all here for. wasn't trying to jump anybodies case, ive just seen that stuff happen alot before, and it just aggravated me to know end. yea, just venting:chainsawguy:


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## slowp (Jul 6, 2007)

OK. Let's have another group hug. It is hot, for here...80s and that makes me cranky. And, it is supposed to be hotter next week. I like fog!


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## joesawer (Jul 6, 2007)

DGDrls said:


> sILlogger,
> 
> Who in this thread indicated anything related to "_when someone with an education in something that has never done it walks up to someone that has done it all their life and tells them how to do it!!!! or tells them that they are going it wrong_."
> 
> ...



I would feel better if you stated your exact job title and position, "oversee" is very vague but implies telling people what and how. I would also like to know what exactly your degrees are. Your vague statements make me uneasy.

I have been dealing with a young fellow lately who is just as described above. He did not know that a dead (up to 9 years) rotten tree was unmerchantable, he still can't tell if one is or not by looking at it. He lies and cheats and manipulates contractors, all the while trying to make himself look good and everyone else look stupid. He assumes that "loggers" are stupid, uneducated, just barely above cavemen. He was a little shocked to find out that my education was nearly equal to his and that I made more money than he did or ever will in his field. That of course pissed him off and in the latest contract he has tried his best to make it unprofitable for me.


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## DGDrls (Jul 7, 2007)

*joesawer*

I'll tell you this much, "overseeing" was not the best choice of words.
Company policy is no contractor shall perform work on company property 
without company escort. Now if I'm gonna "escort" _and_ be responsible to my employer
for a written H&S plan than I need to understand exactly what I'm dealing with.
I have no experience with a Timbco

My degree's are AAS, Land Surveying and BIS, Alternative Energy Technology.

I have 23 years of field, office and professional experience in land surveying
and land management. I have extensive site development experience starting with tree cutting and earth work right up to final survey mapping for real-estate closings. I have worked around D-8's, Pans, Excavators & even log skidder's on occasion.

With that said, I would feel better if you didn't make posts that appear
to lump me into or associate me with a certain category of person who treats people like crap. I don't and I don't like to waste my time with such people.

DGDrls


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## Gologit (Jul 7, 2007)

DGDrls said:


> I'll tell you this much, "overseeing" was not the best choice of words.
> Company policy is no contractor shall perform work on company property
> without company escort. Now if I'm gonna "escort" _and_ be responsible to my employer
> for a written H&S plan than I need to understand exactly what I'm dealing with.
> ...



Hmmmmm. First of all, grow a little hide...you'll need it here. Amongst the slams are a few nuggets of good information. Use them. Don't let your self image get in the way of your common sense.
When the crew shows up just let them know what you want in the way of performance and safety. Let them know that you're there to answer any questions they have and to assist them in any way possible. Get them on your side. Don't be adversarial...they'll make your life a living hell.
Watch what they do and how they do it and even if thier methods don't agree with your ideas let them do thier job. The results matter, not the methodology.
And try to stay out of the way.


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## joesawer (Jul 7, 2007)

I apologize. If you are sincere about the health and safety of loggers, it is a good thing. The logging industry needs all the health and safety it can get.
I will gladly contribute to any one having a safer, longer or better quality of life.
If you don't have any specific question it, is very hard to give an answer. I would recommend reviewing OSHA regs referring to logging. Notice almost every requirement has an exception, if a safer way can be "demonstrated". Unfortunately most loggers do not have a good understanding of OSHA. They see it as some dark, menacing force that enforces rules that they can not possibly keep. If you can help them to use their current safety techniques with the proper wording or demonstration, they will probably love you instead of resent you.
Pay attention to how they work. If everything is smooth and no one is excited, they are working efficiently. Then they are probably pretty safe. If they are constantly barely avoiding a disaster, well they will have one soon enough.
Hard hats outside of FOPS cab pretty much a given, saw chaps for saw operator also. 300' or twice the hight of trees being fell, for the timbco. 
The list goes on for days.
If you have any specific questions I will be glad to answer if I know the answer.
If you need safety meeting material, I have a few hundred on file.


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## slowp (Jul 7, 2007)

And here's the closest call I've had near a processor. I had told the operator that he would need to have a flagger on the road when he was working near enough that a tree might hit it. The road is the second busiest on our district.
He pooh poohed, stated that it was winter and he had good control of trees with his machine. One morning, I was driving out to the sale, was pretty sleepy yet, and a tree hit the road in front of me! I thought it was funny, cuz the wind wasn't blowing. Then the operator came running up from his machine with that "look" in his eyes. Boy, was he sheepish. Seems he cut a tree and it nicked a snag, which landed in front of me. Without me saying a word, he radioed for an extra guy and his truck. And every time he was near that road again, he had a flagger and his truck with flashers going. And, he turned out to be the best operator I've ever worked with. I hope to have him over here again some day. Sometimes you might get off to a bad start, but things work out.


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## DGDrls (Jul 8, 2007)

*Thanks Guys*

Thanks to all and especially to Joesawer and slowp.
You both gave me good pointers and I'll be taking those in the field. 
I'm looking forward to seeing this project start. 

Thanks guys,

DGDrls


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## sILlogger (Jul 8, 2007)

we wanna see it 2=get us some d*mn pics!!!!


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## DGDrls (Jul 9, 2007)

*Pics*

We should start in a week or two, I'll see what I can do.

DGDrls


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## Gologit (Aug 5, 2007)

DGDrls said:


> We should start in a week or two, I'll see what I can do.
> 
> DGDrls



Well, how did it go? After all the help you got here I think some pictures and description of how things went is in order.


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## Kiwilogger (Aug 10, 2007)

*DGDrls*

Safety first, in the 21st!

Paperwork. *shakes head* The bane of a loggers life.


Good luck, you're going to need it.

Seriously, if you are going to run a crew with little or no logging experience you are going to need something spectacular to gain the trust, respect and the loyalty of your crew. No disrespect at all, I was green when I first started operating a hauler at age 34, but loggers don't like green, "shiny asses." End of story. Respect, trust and loyalty from a crew is earned, mostly through hard work, and a ????load of sweat, and a fair amount of blood. My best advice to you, would be to get in, and get your hands dirty.


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