# Walnut Question



## Old Blue (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi all.

weekend before last, I felled my first tree which was a black walnut. The owner wanted it removed to make room for a hay barn. 

I was really looking forward to seeing what it looked like inside. I was really surprised when it fell, to see that the 20-24 inch diameter trunk only had about a 4 inch diameter section of dark walnut colored wood in the center. About 90-95% of the cross section was light colored wood that had about the same shade as pine. It doesn't look like this tree has any usable amount of the normal walnut colored wood that I was expecting.

Is this normal?

Whats up with that?

Old Blue


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## BlueRider (Apr 21, 2010)

Do you have any pictures?


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## TraditionalTool (Apr 21, 2010)

Make sure it's a walnut! 

You would most likely have to split it and look at the length, there could be a lot of sap wood in that area, as a case in point. Look how much percentage in some areas where you have sap wood vs. heart.







There are various types of walnut trees also, and not all are black walnut.


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## Daninvan (Apr 21, 2010)

I have a back issue of Fine Woodworking (#58) that talks about walnut and says that walnut's main shortcoming is that it has a lot of sapwood. 

I thought I read elsewhere that the sapwood can last for 15-20 years before it turns into heartwood. 

Not that it'll help, but how many growth rings are in your sapwood?

Dan


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## Andrew96 (Apr 21, 2010)

Two points here. 
I've only cut two 'black' walnuts and one sounds the same as yours. Thick sapwood. The other however (from the same area, about the same size), had only a little...like 1.5" on a 30" tree. The thick sapwood one made me scratch my head as well. 

Now I thought they did something with walnut when they kiln dried it. Don't the commercial guys die it...or treat it with some chemical that sort of stains the sapwood dark similar to the heartwood? Maybe just stain? I've bought black walnut and you can see the sapwood tinted. Where are the hardwood graders? They see tons of this stuff.


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## oldsaw (Apr 21, 2010)

The tree grew in the open, with plenty of sunlight and water, so it grew very fast. More sapwood, less heartwood, also larger growth rings. The cool part is that you can make some interesting things from it if it dries up nicely.


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## lone wolf (Apr 21, 2010)

wonder if it is white walnut?not a joke look it up.


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## Andrew96 (Apr 21, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> wonder if it is white walnut?not a joke look it up.



Ya I was actually thinking the same thing. Might not be black walnut but butternut...people call that white walnut. It looks the same from the outside.


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## lone wolf (Apr 21, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Ya I was actually thinking the same thing. Might not be black walnut but butternut...people call that white walnut. It looks the same from the outside.



still going to be nice wood.


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## smokinj (Apr 21, 2010)

I took one out a couple weeks ago and seen the same thing at first but now two weeks later the outter edges are much darker..


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## scottr (Apr 21, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Two points here.
> I've only cut two 'black' walnuts and one sounds the same as yours. Thick sapwood. The other however (from the same area, about the same size), had only a little...like 1.5" on a 30" tree. The thick sapwood one made me scratch my head as well.
> 
> Now I thought they did something with walnut when they kiln dried it. Don't the commercial guys die it...or treat it with some chemical that sort of stains the sapwood dark similar to the heartwood? Maybe just stain? I've bought black walnut and you can see the sapwood tinted. Where are the hardwood graders? They see tons of this stuff.



You're close, they steam Black Walnut to turn the sapwood black.


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## Sawyer Rob (Apr 21, 2010)

I have numerous nut tree's growing here on my place, in fact these two tree's are right here by my house.

The Butternut is on the left, and the one on the right is an American blk. walnut,






Rob


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## rarefish383 (Apr 21, 2010)

Years ago I cut a small 14"ish Black Walnut down and left a couple logs stacked up next to the barn. It had very little dark heartwood when I stacked it. Several years later I bought a cheap mini-mill and planked it. It had turned dark all the way through, Joe.


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## mikeb1079 (Apr 21, 2010)

i'm no expert, but i've cut a bit of both butternut and black walnut and it would be very hard to mix them up. butternut is much much lighter and is more of a tan color, where walnut is fairly heavy and has a distinct odor that you can't forget. i've not seen one where the sap was that dominant but if it is a black walnut i'd put my 2 cents on a really fast growing juvenile tree that hadn't yet developed much heartwood. as others have pointed out, still perfectly usable. you'll just have to cut some different walnuts for comparison!


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## Old Blue (Apr 22, 2010)

Here's a link to a vid that my brother took. It's pretty boring but if you slide it up to the 3:20 mark you will see the cross section of the trunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2wVTB92SvQ

I was told that the tree was about 40 yrs old and that looked about right. It was definitely a walnut as there were plenty of them on the ground surrounding it. The wood also has a really nice smell when you cut it. We also pulled out a stump from one of the other trees that had been cut from the remainder of this orchard and after cutting off the end of one of the stubs on the stump the wood inside was beautiful. This was just really dissapointing as we went through a lot of prep and arrangements, not to mention you really have to drive a while from san diego to find any walnut. It's turning into a bit of a lesson / learning experience.

Old Blue


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## Andrew96 (Apr 22, 2010)

scottr said:


> You're close, they steam Black Walnut to turn the sapwood black.



Steam it....ahaaaaaa. Have you tried that? Do they use anything else in the water when they make the steam? Any pointers?


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## Curlycherry1 (Apr 22, 2010)

When lumber is kiln dried, especially Walnut they first raise the moisture level in the wood to a predetermined level by adding steam in the kiln. With walnut they really sock the steam to it and keep it there for several days. This causes the sapwood to pick up some of the color of the heartwood, but it will always be slightly different. Once they get the wood equilibrated to the new moisture level then they start the drying process and this they control carefully. They pull the moisture out of the wood slowly and carefully so as to not dry the outside more than the inside. This is called 'case hardening' and is very bad. It leave cracks on the wood's surface and high amounts of stress in the wood. So when case hardened wood is cut with a saw to make pieces to build stuff out of, the wood warps really bad.

Steam dried walnut looses a bit of color when it is steamed. So with walnut you will often see people say if the wood is steamed or not. Air dried walnut is highly desired by purists because of its more purple tone to the color of the wood. I have some pics of air dried vs steamed walnut, I will see if I can find those.

Walnut will blend the sapwood if left in log form and some people say that 6 months of aging is enough, I have heard others say that years are needed. Problem with letting it sit in log form for years is that it will dry out on the ends and crack severly. As a general rule of thumb I have heard most mills let their walnut sit for ~6 months before sawing it into boards.

Found the pics:

Here is steamed walnut. Notice how the sapwood is darker, but it still present.







Here is unsteamed walnut but still dried in a kiln. Notice how white and wide the sapwood is and notice the heartwood's different color compared to the other picture. It may not look like it but when finished this piece will have a more purpleish color to it.






Both pieces are from the same general geographic region of the US (PA) and they were dried in the same kiln, one using steam, and one not using steam so the variables are minimal.


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## BlueRider (Apr 22, 2010)

I looked at the video and your walnut is juglans regia comonly known as english walnut. It is common for orchard trees in this part of the state to be english walnut grafted onto juglans hindsii or claro walnut root stock. your tree is a newer style where the graft is near or at the ground. around 50 years ago it was more comon to see the grft at the top of the bolle(straight part of the trunk) as several grated branches.

English walnut is still very desirable as a funiture wood and can have wonderful figure. it is also much much more susceptable bugs and termites. you may want to treat it with borate as a preventative measure, cheap insurance. Use a garden sprayer and soak the wood on both sides at the end of the day when you mill it, or just before you stack the slabs to dry. 

The stumps you have are most likely claro. there is a chance that the stumps are paradox/bastagone walnut as there was a nursery near tulare that was usung it for rootstock. post pics of the stumps when you mill them and I will lock to see if I can tell what they are.


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## Andrew96 (Apr 23, 2010)

Curlycherry1 said:


> When lumber is kiln dried, especially Walnut they first raise the moisture level in the wood to a predetermined level by adding steam in the kiln. With walnut they really sock the steam to it and keep it there for several days. This causes the sapwood to pick up some of the color of the heartwood, but it will always be slightly different. Once they get the wood equilibrated to the new moisture level then they start the drying process and this they control carefully. They pull the moisture out of the wood slowly and carefully so as to not dry the outside more than the inside. This is called 'case hardening' and is very bad. It leave cracks on the wood's surface and high amounts of stress in the wood. So when case hardened wood is cut with a saw to make pieces to build stuff out of, the wood warps really bad.
> 
> Steam dried walnut looses a bit of color when it is steamed. So with walnut you will often see people say if the wood is steamed or not. Air dried walnut is highly desired by purists because of its *more purple tone* to the color of the wood. I have some pics of air dried vs steamed walnut, I will see if I can find those.
> 
> ...



Curly cherry guy. Great info. I find now that I'm a purist..sort of sounds a bit stuck up..... 
I use a lot of walnut and try to find the boards that have that purple run through them. As you have said, when they have the purplish bits to them, the other grain sort of has higher contrast. Some really dark purpley bits, then some lighter bits. Seems I'm after air dried black walnut. The steamed stuff is sort of bland to me. Might be good for a large cabinet or something where you want something uniform. Up until now..I thought I was looking for steamed stuff...now I know I want air dried. Thanks for taking the time to teach me today. 

I can walk around with my nose in the air now....and know why.


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## Andrew96 (Apr 23, 2010)

BlueRider said:


> I looked at the video and your walnut is juglans regia comonly known as english walnut. It is common for orchard trees in this part of the state to be english walnut grafted onto juglans hindsii or claro walnut root stock. your tree is a newer style where the graft is near or at the ground. around 50 years ago it was more comon to see the grft at the top of the bolle(straight part of the trunk) as several grated branches.
> 
> English walnut is still very desirable as a funiture wood and can have wonderful figure. it is also much much more susceptable bugs and termites. you may want to treat it with borate as a preventative measure, cheap insurance. Use a garden sprayer and soak the wood on both sides at the end of the day when you mill it, or just before you stack the slabs to dry.
> 
> The stumps you have are most likely claro. there is a chance that the stumps are paradox/bastagone walnut as there was a nursery near tulare that was usung it for rootstock. post pics of the stumps when you mill them and I will lock to see if I can tell what they are.



Geez...CSI guy for trees. You can tell all that from a video...Imagine if you were beside the tree.


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## Curlycherry1 (Apr 23, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Curly cherry guy. Great info. I find now that I'm a purist..sort of sounds a bit stuck up.....
> I use a lot of walnut and try to find the boards that have that purple run through them. As you have said, when they have the purplish bits to them, the other grain sort of has higher contrast. Some really dark purpley bits, then some lighter bits. Seems I'm after air dried black walnut. The steamed stuff is sort of bland to me. Might be good for a large cabinet or something where you want something uniform. Up until now..I thought I was looking for steamed stuff...now I know I want air dried. Thanks for taking the time to teach me today.
> 
> I can walk around with my nose in the air now....and know why.



There is nothing wrong with being a wood snob. I suffer from that myself. You will know when you have crossed the line when you buy wood in single logs that have been sawn and kept together as this mill does. http://www.horizonevolutions.com/online-inventory/extra-wide-widths.html

I built my kitchen cabinets out of two logs of cherry. One for all the frames and one for all the panels in the doors. The door panels are curly cherry. That is being a wood snob!


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## BlueRider (Apr 23, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Geez...CSI guy for trees. You can tell all that from a video...Imagine if you were beside the tree.



Juglans regia(english walnut) is easy to distiguish from all the other walnuts because the bark has a whish grey color to it with large scales. If that wasn't enough the leaves are also distictly different and are much larger and oval in shape rather than long skiny and pointed. more suble is the color difference of the leaves but once you see it a few times even that is easy to remember and use as a quick id tool.

trying to tell the difference between Juglans hindsii (claro walnut)and juglans nigra (american black walnut, or eastern black walnut)from a video would have been a different story.


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## Old Blue (Apr 26, 2010)

*Thanks Guys !*

You folks have quite a collection of knowledge. While reading through all of this it was clear that any number of things may have been the case. I was thinking that I wasn’t going to be quite sure why this tree didn’t look like any walnut that I’d seen before. 

BlueRider’s posts seemed to match up with the circumstances. After reading them, I googled “english walnut leaf, black walnut leaf” and found two pictures of the leaves of each. That was the positive ID that told me it is an English Walnut.

Thanks BlueRider for IDing it for me and all the great info regarding those trees and that area of central California.

Sawyer Rob’s pics of butternut and walnut bark also helped and clued me in to another part of the ID, this trees bark is different than the black walnuts bark.

A big thanks to everybody else who shared their ideas with me as well. Some of these posts are just filled with tons of info. Big thanks again – especially for all the pics and descriptions of different ways that walnut gets handled and processed.

We will still mill this wood and dry it but it’s definitely going to be used in some projects other than what I had hoped for. 

Old Blue


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## Andrew96 (Apr 26, 2010)

Well I have to second that....thanks. I sort of rode in your coat tales and learned a lot...all over what seemed like a simple question. You guys are great.


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## Sawyer Rob (Apr 26, 2010)

I have english walnuts here too, and the bark is smoother, and the leaves rounded, like was already mentioned.

Rob


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