# Biodiesel in machinery?



## newguy (Apr 1, 2008)

Does any of you use biodiesel in your forestry machinery? As most of you guys probably do, I have diesel everything and the cost of fuel is crazy!!
I have read manufacturer warnings that biodiesel should not be used over a 5% blend, (5% bio and 95% dino diesel). Is anyone using bio? If so at what mix%? Any loss in power or performance? 
I don't see any savings using a 5% blend, but if I can mix at a higher % it may work. This is providing the machines do not have a noticable power loss and will not be damaged. 
Bandit 280
Mustang MTL16
Ford F550 powerstroke


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## redprospector (Apr 1, 2008)

There's no where around here to buy bio-diesel, but ever since diesel hit $4.00 a gallon I've been looking into making it. I'm locked into some contract's that this is really making it tough to complete.

Andy


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## 2dogs (Apr 1, 2008)

I am firmly against bio diesel! First off biodiesel (bd) is being pushed by the huge lobbying group employed by the soy bean industry. The number 1 goal is to have the government subsidise the entire industry. I would not doubt that within a few unchecked years that ADM patented soy beans will be the only soy accepted for bd. The subsidies are paid by YOU. That means higher taxes so an artificially low price can shown at the pump. Soy is a lousy bd crop, producing low yields compared to European crops but ADM and a few others own the politicians. In addition food crops will be sacrificed for the bd industry. The entire planet should be working to improve crop yield and annual yield, NOT reduce it so we can show lower prices at the pump. Biodiesel has been called a crime against humanity. I agree with that statement.

Obama is in the pocket of the corn to ethanol lobby via Monsanto. Regardless of the fact that ethanol takes more energy to produce than it yields the industry is strong. Why? Because taxpayers subsidise the industry because of the lobbying groups. Again food crops are being replaced with non-food crops.


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## sILlogger (Apr 1, 2008)

it burns quite a bit cleaner..but it will also knock all the sludge loose in your fuel system in your motor...and it will also gel-up (in the cold) at a higher temp than regular diesel..as for performance i don't know of a difference


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2008)

newguy said:


> Does any of you use biodiesel in your forestry machinery? As most of you guys probably do, I have diesel everything and the cost of fuel is crazy!!
> I have read manufacturer warnings that biodiesel should not be used over a 5% blend, (5% bio and 95% dino diesel). Is anyone using bio? If so at what mix%? Any loss in power or performance?
> I don't see any savings using a 5% blend, but if I can mix at a higher % it may work. This is providing the machines do not have a noticable power loss and will not be damaged.
> Bandit 280
> ...



I've never used it. Before you try it why not talk to a few diesel mechanics and see what they think of it? They'll be the ones with the hands on experience on how it affects engines.

Also...I have to go along with 2Dogs opinion on biodiesel. I don't like the diesel prices either and, like Redprosector said, it makes it hard to do business at any kind of a reasonable profit. But biodiesel isn't the answer....I wish it was.


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## tanker (Apr 1, 2008)

I haul fuel for a living(at least part of my living as I haul chemicals too)around here in east central Indiana,bio is a big deal.We haul to one city bus company that has used a 20% blend for the last several years and their reduction of engine repairs and to a greater extent,their reduction of exhaust emissions is outstanding.bio is not only made from soybeans but also animal fat and other waste products.As far as destroying food,I farmed all my life until 2001.If the ccorn for ethanol and the soybeans for bio make the farmer more money,more power to him.He had to spend enough years getting for his crops what his dad did 20 years before him $1.35 a bushel for corn and $5.00 a bushel for beans.Also I'll point out that dad and I did'nt take gov. subsidies either.Worked off farm jobs and made do with used equipt.


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## habanero (Apr 1, 2008)

2dogs said:


> ..The number 1 goal is to have the government subsidise the entire industry...



So you'd prefer to subsidize terrorists and idiot little South American dictators instead?

Farmers were getting subsidies long before biofuels were a hot-button topic. I've never agreed with it and never will. But at least by funneling those subsidies through the biofuels industry, we're all getting benefit.

And as to the fuel/food argument, do a search on algae biodiesel. It's still a few years away, but it'll go further than soy biodiesel ever will to reducing our petroleum dependence. I just saw today CNN has finally picked up on it, so it'll probably be on all the news outlets in the next day or two.

Biodiesel probably isn't the end-all, be-all answer to a petroleum diesel replacement. But along with GTL fuels, it's a step in the right direction.


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## newguy (Apr 1, 2008)

*Biodiesel*

Thanks for the great replies!! I am also against using food for fuel. I should have stated I am pondering making my own from used cooking oil. The technology seems to be out there, I'm just wondering about the effects on equipment unique to our industry. Contacting a good diesel mechanic is a great idea, thanks !


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## 2dogs (Apr 1, 2008)

I should say I am not against the concept of a biofuel. American soy and other biodiesel makes no sense though. If you have a source of bio-oil like fryer oil and want to reclaim it, have fun. More later, maybe in the off topic forum.


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## Frank Boyer (Apr 1, 2008)

I took a manufacture level class that covered biodiesel last summer. They showed 8 samples of fuel from local stations and most were contaminated enough to void a warranty claim for injector failure. I won't run it in my truck/tractor.


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## 2dogs (Apr 1, 2008)

Frank Boyer said:


> I took a manufacture level class that covered biodiesel last summer. They showed 8 samples of fuel from local stations and most were contaminated enough to void a warranty claim for injector failure. I won't run it in my truck/tractor.



Uh, how local?  Maybe I don't want to know.


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## Frank Boyer (Apr 2, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Uh, how local?  Maybe I don't want to know.


The class was at the Chrysler training center in Pleasanton. The samples were from around the S F Bay area.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 2, 2008)

You should have many fuel filters on hand when you switch over because it will dislodge so much sludge. 

Making your own from used oil is the way to go, but start looking around for it to get an idea of availability because a lot is already locked up by commercial producers. Filter filter filter, then it'll be good.

Shouldn't be any problems mechanically. It is known to provide better engine lubrication characteristics too, than conventional diesel.


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## Cowboy Billy (Apr 3, 2008)

As far as soybeans used for bio diesel rather than food crops. It really does not have a impact. As the seed mash is still a high protein animal feed. Two years ago you could get almost as much for the mash per ton and was paid for the soybeans them self. 

Of course sunflowers, rape seed and mustard give much better yields of oil than soybeans.

A problem with used cooking oil to make biodiesel is that cleaning fluids get dumped into the tank with the used oil. I know of one set of injectors was wiped out from some cleaning agent that was still in it after being prossed as biodiesel.

Another problem is that the biodiesel can attack rubber fuel lines and injector O rings in older diesels. 

You already know that it will clean the tank and plug the fuel filters. Two years ago we were sent 20% bio with out being told. And were lucky to make a weeks on a fuel filter And that was on newer equ that had less than 2000 hrs on it. At one point we had two 345 cat excavators down at one time and a mechinac cursing as he was trying to change them on hot engines. But after three or four weeks we no longer had a problem.

I am looking into converting to running on strait vegetable oil. But haven't got far with it yet.

Their is a lot of good info on it at thedieselstop.com in forms under biodiesel and alternitive fuels. http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f22/

Billy


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## habanero (Apr 3, 2008)

Cowboy Billy said:


> ...A problem with used cooking oil to make biodiesel is that cleaning fluids get dumped into the tank with the used oil. I know of one set of injectors was wiped out from some cleaning agent that was still in it after being prossed as biodiesel.



If this was a problem, the biodiesel wasn't processed correctly. Any cleaning agents that can cause harm should be water soluble and go out with the aqueous layer after washing. Back in the day a lot of backyard biodiesel makers didn't wash their product and the problem you describe wasn't unheard of. As long as it's washed properly, though, waste-oil biodiesel is perfectly safe.

Now if you're going to run straight oil, then you have to be more discerning about the oil you're getting.


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## Cowboy Billy (Apr 8, 2008)

habanero said:


> If this was a problem, the biodiesel wasn't processed correctly. Any cleaning agents that can cause harm should be water soluble and go out with the aqueous layer after washing. Back in the day a lot of backyard biodiesel makers didn't wash their product and the problem you describe wasn't unheard of. As long as it's washed properly, though, waste-oil biodiesel is perfectly safe.
> 
> Now if you're going to run straight oil, then you have to be more discerning about the oil you're getting.



Thanks Habanero. That was from memory of what I looked up two years ago. Looks like this year I will be getting going on my oil project. My cousin is going to let me grow 40 acres of sunflowers on his property. We already have a oil seed press. We have to come up with storage tanks and someone to combine it for us. We are supposed to get 102 gal/acre. Its on my cousins hunting property and the deer will knock down quite a bit. On the other hand deer fattened up on sunflower seeds tastes great!!!

Billy


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## 2dogs (Apr 8, 2008)

Cowboy Billy said:


> Thanks Habanero. That was from memory of what I looked up two years ago. Looks like this year I will be getting going on my oil project. My cousin is going to let me grow 40 acres of sunflowers on his property. We already have a oil seed press. We have to come up with storage tanks and someone to combine it for us. We are supposed to get 102 gal/acre. Its on my cousins hunting property and the deer will knock down quite a bit. On the other hand deer fattened up on sunflower seeds tastes great!!!
> 
> Billy



Out of the goodness of my heart, or maybe the goodness of my stomach, my son and would be willing to help you with your deer problem. Just let us know.


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## Gologit (Apr 8, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Out of the goodness of my heart, or maybe the goodness of my stomach, my son and would be willing to help you with your deer problem. Just let us know.



LOL...if you get too much for your freezer just let me know. Out of the goodness of my heart I'd be willing to help out.  

Are you going to be able to make it to the PNW GTG?


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## Cowboy Billy (Apr 8, 2008)

Well I hope to have the hunting cabin up by deer season I got stuck working 7-12's through rifle season and I cannot even hit the side of the barn with a bow. Dogone arrow went between the boards and inside of the barn :censored:

But if you find your self in northern michigan it will be deer and beer and guns. Chainsaws make great buck lures too. Draws them right in Funny my Uncles thought I was scaring the deer off cutting cedar. Ha.

Billy


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## treemandan (Apr 8, 2008)

newguy said:


> Thanks for the great replies!! I am also against using food for fuel. I should have stated I am pondering making my own from used cooking oil. The technology seems to be out there, I'm just wondering about the effects on equipment unique to our industry. Contacting a good diesel mechanic is a great idea, thanks !



Against food for fuel? I can see how certain politics would bias a person judgement and I don't know much about it myself but; Why not? Anyway we can keep a renewable source renewing is good. Not only that, cooking oil is a food used or not.


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## treemandan (Apr 8, 2008)

2dogs said:


> I am firmly against bio diesel! First off biodiesel (bd) is being pushed by the huge lobbying group employed by the soy bean industry. The number 1 goal is to have the government subsidise the entire industry. I would not doubt that within a few unchecked years that ADM patented soy beans will be the only soy accepted for bd. The subsidies are paid by YOU. That means higher taxes so an artificially low price can shown at the pump. Soy is a lousy bd crop, producing low yields compared to European crops but ADM and a few others own the politicians. In addition food crops will be sacrificed for the bd industry. The entire planet should be working to improve crop yield and annual yield, NOT reduce it so we can show lower prices at the pump. Biodiesel has been called a crime against humanity. I agree with that statement.
> 
> Obama is in the pocket of the corn to ethanol lobby via Monsanto. Regardless of the fact that ethanol takes more energy to produce than it yields the industry is strong. Why? Because taxpayers subsidise the industry because of the lobbying groups. Again food crops are being replaced with non-food crops.



No. I have never seen a commie drink a glass of water, enlighten me please.


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## 2dogs (Apr 8, 2008)

treemandan said:


> No. I have never seen a commie drink a glass of water, enlighten me please.



It is a line from "Dr Strangelove...", one of the greatest movies ever made. It ranks right up there with "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" and "Blazing Saddles".

http://www.uselessmoviequotes.com/umq_d010.htm


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## Slamm (Apr 9, 2008)

I used bio in my skidders and duramax two summers ago without any apparent problems. Don't use it under say 40 degrees for sure 32 degrees F, you will experience problems.

Supposively you will notice a slight decrease in mileage, but I never did.

Sam


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## newguy (Apr 10, 2008)

Sam what % of biodiesel did you use on your equipment?


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## Bicboro (Apr 15, 2008)

Hey, chemistry is the science you should invest in. Get yourself someone who knows what is going on. As far as hammerlogging says, a chemical process is all the same in the end result. He isn't correct. A chemical process is just that. It doesn't matter what its made of, its all the same. Chemical specs are just that. If it has the same specs, that is what it is. The trick is to warm it before it is used. Other than that, it doesn't matter.


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## kubota00 (Apr 18, 2008)

Newguy

Please do some research before you make up your mind. http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc this site will give you some good facts about several alternative fuels. There are many fleets using it with some very good results. 

Also check the websites of the vehicle and engine manufactures most of them have a position on biofuels. 

Regards

Dave


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