# Large Oak dying



## walexa07 (Jul 11, 2008)

My father has a home in a new subdivision and we went swimming over there the other day. About 20' from their pool is a large oak, I am guessing red oak but not for sure, and it only produced 2/3 the foliage this year as last year. In other words it has about 1/3 of the limbs with no foliage.

I fear the tree is dying and want to know if anything can be done to save it.

How can you tell why it is dying, and how far gone is too far gone? Thanks.

Waylan


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## Ed Roland (Jul 11, 2008)

Sounds like you have construction damage.
Tree roots are 8-12" below ground. The heavy equipment used to build the house destroyed those roots that fed the failing portion of crown. Digging a hole for a 25,000 gallon tank removed the roots that resided there. With this kind of abuse the tree did not stand a chance.

The fix is expensive and may not even work. 
good luck


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> Sounds like you have construction damage.
> Tree roots are 8-12" below ground. The heavy equipment used to build the house destroyed those roots that fed the failing portion of crown. Digging a hole for a 25,000 gallon tank removed the roots that resided there. With this kind of abuse the tree did not stand a chance.
> 
> The fix is expensive and may not even work.
> good luck



many things can be done i would start with a deep root feeding


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 11, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> Sounds like you have construction damage.
> Tree roots are 8-12" below ground. The heavy equipment used to build the house destroyed those roots that fed the failing portion of crown. Digging a hole for a 25,000 gallon tank removed the roots that resided there. With this kind of abuse the tree did not stand a chance.
> 
> The fix is expensive and may not even work.
> good luck



thats it time four removal tom trees:bang:


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## Ed Roland (Jul 11, 2008)

smokinj said:


> many things can be done i would start with a deep root feeding



Not so fast. Before you go adding fertilizer to the soil you should check to see if its even needed with a soil test. Plants use 16 periodic elements for metabolism and its best to add what is missing instead of squirting general fert. I would recommend NOT adding nitrogen to the soil anyway. Why make an already stressed plant flush new growth. This will certainly not help and could even be the proverbial "straw".

The issue here is to increase root density through systematic de-compaction techniques and practice better horticulture. Try air-spading the rhizo and look into mycor innoculations. Resist fertilizing this plant.


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## treeseer (Jul 13, 2008)

The deep root "food" the tree needs is organic matter and air. But 1/3 crown loss in one season may be a death knell.

Post a picture and you will get better input.


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## walexa07 (Jul 14, 2008)

I meant to get a photo yesterday but forgot my camera. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

After looking at it good yesterday it is not as bad as 1/3. Probably closer to 1/5 or 1/6. I will try to get a photo today or tomorrow and post it.

Is it helpful if the dead limbs are removed, and how far back should they be removed?

Waylan


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## smokinj (Jul 14, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> Not so fast. Before you go adding fertilizer to the soil you should check to see if its even needed with a soil test. Plants use 16 periodic elements for metabolism and its best to add what is missing instead of squirting general fert. I would recommend NOT adding nitrogen to the soil anyway. Why make an already stressed plant flush new growth. This will certainly not help and could even be the proverbial "straw".
> 
> The issue here is to increase root density through systematic de-compaction techniques and practice better horticulture. Try air-spading the rhizo and look into mycor innoculations. Resist fertilizing this plant.



If the tree never had fert. before it will benefit from balance fert. Losing roots due to constion you need to promote new growth


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## Ed Roland (Jul 14, 2008)

smokinj said:


> If the tree never had fert. before it will benefit from balance fert. Losing roots due to constion you need to promote new growth



So, you recommend squirting fert and walking away? Send the bill?

"*you* need to promote new growth." 
I say enable the plant to properly perform its processes and _*it*_ will put on that new growth. The compaction from heavy equipment will not go away and no amount of fert will make a tree put new roots in this damaged soil. The homeowner will have to hire a firm to come in and perform _root invigoration_ or a reasonable copy of the process. Its expensive and comes with no guarantees. The process will address the compacted soil issue creating a media roots can penetrate.


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## smokinj (Jul 14, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> So, you recommend squirting fert and walking away? Send the bill?
> 
> "*you* need to promote new growth."
> I say enable the plant to properly perform its processes and _*it*_ will put on that new growth. The compaction from heavy equipment will not go away and no amount of fert will make a tree put new roots in this damaged soil. The homeowner will have to hire a firm to come in and perform _root invigoration_ or a reasonable copy of the process. Its expensive and comes with no guarantees. The process will address the compacted soil issue creating a media roots can penetrate.



huh sound cheaper than your way and does address compaction!


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## Ed Roland (Jul 14, 2008)

smokinj said:


> huh sound cheaper than your way and does address compaction!



Smokinj... drop the J
step away from the J
come on now, son, nobody needs to get hurt here.

:notrolls2:


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## smokinj (Jul 14, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> Smokinj... drop the J
> step away from the J
> come on now, son, nobody needs to get hurt here.
> 
> :notrolls2:



do what


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## Ed Roland (Jul 14, 2008)

SmokinJ, I strive to give my clients the very best and up to date science based recommendations. I am constantly learning. 

Please provide for me the data supporting your theory that deep root injections of fertilizer mitigate soil compaction, or better yet, the data supporting your idea that deep root injected fertilizer will promote root growth in compacted soil.

Thank you


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## smokinj (Jul 16, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> SmokinJ, I strive to give my clients the very best and up to date science based recommendations. I am constantly learning.
> 
> Please provide for me the data supporting your theory that deep root injections of fertilizer mitigate soil compaction, or better yet, the data supporting your idea that deep root injected fertilizer will promote root growth in compacted soil.
> 
> Thank you



I hope you dont treat your customers like you have me.The data is out there but iam done with this thread!!!!!!


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## KevinM (Oct 1, 2008)

I agree with smoking this tree has to be fertilized asap and also mulch the root system and water the tree as well. Fertilizer is the best approach when a tree is under stress such as this one.


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## Ed Roland (Oct 1, 2008)

KevinM said:


> I agree with smoking this tree has to be fertilized asap and also mulch the root system and water the tree as well. Fertilizer is the best approach when a tree is under stress such as this one.



KevinM, do you really suppose forcing a tree to put on new growth, especially this late in the season, is best practices?


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## KevinM (Oct 1, 2008)

You need to promote root growth in a tree that has had it roots damaged and Doggett has an awesome product that we use in the fall and yes it is ok to push out new growth this late in the season here in the south.


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## Ed Roland (Oct 2, 2008)

KevinM said:


> You need to promote root growth in a tree that has had it roots damaged and Doggett has an awesome product that we use in the fall and yes it is ok to push out new growth this late in the season here in the south.



I dont believe throwing chemicals at this tree is the way to go. The problem is soil compaction. That is the cause of the low root density. 
Why try to force the tree to flush new growth when the roots can not possibly penetrate the soil. 

Break out the air spade. Resist fertilizer as a remedy. Making this stressed tree grow will stress it even further.


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## KevinM (Oct 2, 2008)

I agree with the air spade as well but I have found in my experiences that trees recover much much much better with a combination of mulch, water and slow release fertilizer and I have saved many trees that were near death. I have had two scientists with pHds both tell me that two trees we were treating back in 1994 that both would die due to there situations but I have saved both of these trees and how with water, mulch and fertilizer. Dont believe everthing you read in an ISA book and get out there and try some of these techniques because they work.


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## S Mc (Oct 2, 2008)

KevinM said:


> I agree with the air spade as well ...saved both of these trees and how with water, mulch and *fertilizer*.



And actually you probably saved the trees through the application of water and mulch alone, the fertilizer may well have been the incidental factor. Gave the client a "visual" by bright green leaves but was not necessarily the "key" ingredient.

I can make the same claim of saving trees that were in such poor shape that they appeared to be at "death's door". We resolved the problem by correcting the watering regimen and adding mulch...the clients were amazed and very pleased at how fast their trees bounced back.

Roots need: space, water and oxygen. Take away any one of those components and there are going to be problems. 

Compacting the soil and removing a major amount of roots from a mature tree that is of a species that is fairly intolerant to that abuse and you are in for trouble.

I hope the original poster posts pictures so we can see what is actually going on here.

Sylvia


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## Urban Forester (Oct 2, 2008)

Nitrogen could trigger a growth response from the tree. Nitrogen IS energy. Causing more growth will place a higher "demand" on a possibly impacted root system to sustain that growth, causing a depletion of VITAL stored sugars/carbs in the root system. Fertilizer in a tree that has had significant (possible?) root injury is NOT the way to go. First step is as stated above determine extent of root impact and proceed from there.


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## KevinM (Oct 2, 2008)

This subject could be argued to death. In my opinion and previous experience on construction sites water, mulch and fertilizer are the three key ingredients when it comes to root, trunk and branch damage on trees on construction sites. I have been involved in winning two Excellent in Arboricultural Awards from TCIA with saving trees on construction sites with two prominent clients and we saved all of the trees. I grew up in the NAA/TCIA mentality and yes the ISA has great ideas but I dont agree with all of them and this is the main objection I have with ISA with dealing with trees on construction sites and fertilizing them.


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