# Sthil MS 461 vs Stihl MS 660 Dyno tested



## chadihman (Jul 29, 2013)

One of you fellas wanted this test so here are the #'s. At 10,000 rpms the 461 and the 660 were almost tied for hp. 461 had .05 hp advantage. At 9250 rpms the 660 had an small advantage of .14 hp. At 8840 rpms the 660 had an advantage of .744 hp. As you can see the 461 is a strong beast and held up well to the 660. I always thought the 660 was sluggish until it was wearing a big bar. That makes perfect sense here because the 660 gained as the load was increased. I wanted to pull the 660 lower but the dyno ran out of resistance to hold the torque back at a steady rpm. I'm going to put an 8 or 9 pin sprocket on the saws so I can load them harder. I'll get my larger sprockets and pull this 660 lower. 
I'm more giddy than my five year old at Christmas. Buckets of fun! My wife thinks I'm nuts but I overheard her telling a friend about the cool chainsaw testing machine I built. If ya gotta be nuts to have fun then I'm all for it


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 29, 2013)

opcorn:

I'm in for the fun. Gotta love when an underdog beats the big dog.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jul 29, 2013)

both saws stock?
i'm not surprised, that's why I say they shoulda made a "bigger" 460


----------



## morewood (Jul 29, 2013)

You are simply awesome. I love real world data to compare. So, how many builders have contacted you?:msp_w00t:

Shea


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

660=turd Haha :taped:


----------



## KenJax Tree (Jul 29, 2013)

Roll Tide said:


> 660=turd Haha :taped:



:agree2: i sold mine and bought a 390xp and couldn't be happier.


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> :agree2: i sold mine and bought a 390xp and couldn't be happier.


I've never been impressed with a 660 even ported .


----------



## wigglesworth (Jul 29, 2013)

Roll Tide said:


> I've never been impressed with a 660 even ported .



I'm not impressed with lots of things....


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

wigglesworth said:


> I'm not impressed with lots of things....



You need to text me your number I dont have it....along with your address once again. I've been in the hospital. I've got a few things that belong to you sir.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Jul 29, 2013)

Hospital?? Yuck!! Hope you're better.


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Hospital?? Yuck!! Hope you're better.


Yeah had an infection that started in my tonsils and ended gettin into my blood which landed me in the ICU. Finally got my tonsils removed Thursday.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Jul 29, 2013)

Well i'm glad to hear you're feeling better


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Well i'm glad to hear you're feeling better


Thanks bud now Im ready to eat real food again in the next couple days.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 29, 2013)

Roll Tide said:


> Yeah had an infection that started in my tonsils and ended gettin into my blood which landed me in the ICU. Finally got my tonsils removed Thursday.




Dam Bro. I was thinking about you in the the last couple of days while I was doing window time. Was trying to remember the last time I had seen a post from you and couldn't remember. Seems like there for a while you were in every thread. Glad your on the rebound.:msp_wink:


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

bryanr2 said:


> Dam Bro. I was thinking about you in the the last couple of days while I was doing window time. Was trying to remember the last time I had seen a post from you and couldn't remember. Seems like there for a while you were in every thread. Glad your on the rebound.:msp_wink:



Im back !!!


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

bryanr2 said:


> Dam Bro. I was thinking about you in the the last couple of days while I was doing window time. Was trying to remember the last time I had seen a post from you and couldn't remember. Seems like there for a while you were in every thread. Glad your on the rebound.:msp_wink:



And thanks bud


----------



## chadihman (Jul 29, 2013)

The 461 sure is a dandy. I cant wait till the 661 is out cause I'll have one and test it against the 660. I'm sure the 661 will be a strong one so the 660 will have to go. Any word on the 661?


----------



## stihlonlynow (Jul 29, 2013)

chadihman said:


> One of you fellas wanted this test so here are the #'s. At 10,000 rpms the 461 and the 660 were almost tied for hp. 461 had .05 hp advantage. At 9250 rpms the 660 had an small advantage of .14 hp. At 8840 rpms the 660 had an advantage of .744 hp. As you can see the 461 is a strong beast and held up well to the 660. I always thought the 660 was sluggish until it was wearing a big bar. That makes perfect sense here because the 660 gained as the load was increased. I wanted to pull the 660 lower but the dyno ran out of resistance to hold the torque back at a steady rpm. I'm going to put an 8 or 9 pin sprocket on the saws so I can load them harder. I'll get my larger sprockets and pull this 660 lower.
> I'm more giddy than my five year old at Christmas. Buckets of fun! My wife thinks I'm nuts but I overheard her telling a friend about the cool chainsaw testing machine I built. If ya gotta be nuts to have fun then I'm all for it



I am not that surprised. I have told several people that it just depends which one has the better chain when I run my 460 versus 660 stock saws. The only time the 660 has a clear advantage is when you put them 25" into rock maple. The 460 has a mm now so its really hard to tell the difference at all. I plan on doing a mm to the single port cover on the 660......if I keep it. I really like the wicked work saw ported 395 that I just bought.


----------



## stihlonlynow (Jul 29, 2013)

chadihman said:


> One of you fellas wanted this test so here are the #'s. At 10,000 rpms the 461 and the 660 were almost tied for hp. 461 had .05 hp advantage. At 9250 rpms the 660 had an small advantage of .14 hp. At 8840 rpms the 660 had an advantage of .744 hp. As you can see the 461 is a strong beast and held up well to the 660. I always thought the 660 was sluggish until it was wearing a big bar. That makes perfect sense here because the 660 gained as the load was increased. I wanted to pull the 660 lower but the dyno ran out of resistance to hold the torque back at a steady rpm. I'm going to put an 8 or 9 pin sprocket on the saws so I can load them harder. I'll get my larger sprockets and pull this 660 lower.
> I'm more giddy than my five year old at Christmas. Buckets of fun! My wife thinks I'm nuts but I overheard her telling a friend about the cool chainsaw testing machine I built. If ya gotta be nuts to have fun then I'm all for it



Thanks for removing any doubt that I had about the difference between these two saws.


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

chadihman said:


> The 461 sure is a dandy. I cant wait till the 661 is out cause I'll have one and test it against the 660. I'm sure the 661 will be a strong one so the 660 will have to go. Any word on the 661?



It'll be toward the end of the year before I can order one. M Tonic!!!!!!


----------



## Nate66n1 (Jul 29, 2013)

Is the 660 a better choice when a longer bar is on it, say a 36"


----------



## Roll Tide (Jul 29, 2013)

Nate66n1 said:


> Is the 660 a better choice when a longer bar is on it, say a 36"



Imo I wouldnt run a 36 on a 660 i dont think they have enough ass.


----------



## Nate66n1 (Jul 29, 2013)

I've got a 25" and 36" for my 660, all I've done with the 36" is buck logs for firewood. It's the most saw I've ran in wood so far but I'm no seasoned veteran. Are the 460 saws as good as the 461?


----------



## chadihman (Jul 29, 2013)

Nate66n1 said:


> Is the 660 a better choice when a longer bar is on it, say a 36"



Yes, the 660 is not a cookie cutter. My 660 wears a 36" bar. The 660 can chug along with its low end torque


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Yes, the 660 is not a cookie cutter. My 660 wears a 36" bar. The 660 can chug along with its low end torque



You need to be able to load those R's down more.

I have three, all bone stock, one 066 late model and two running 660's for comparisons if your interested.

Did you run it with a 066 cover, the dual port can?


----------



## blsnelling (Jul 30, 2013)

I would like to see the 660 tested again with a respectable MM, as the saw was designed before the EPA messed it up.


----------



## 7sleeper (Jul 30, 2013)

Sure is funny how times change. I remember when the 660 was the thing to have! Nowadays it sounds like it is almost embarrising to admit that you have one. (I don't have one)

7


----------



## spencerpaving (Jul 30, 2013)

Nate66n1 said:


> Is the 660 a better choice when a longer bar is on it, say a 36"



naw I would run run a huskey 346 with a 36" everyone knows stihls cant pull big bars:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

Lets not bash the 660 so much. It will handle a larger bar better than the 461 will. It's got 20% more power at 8800 rpms. A 9 pin sprocket is on the way so I can test the 660 at lower rpms. The 9 pin will spin the pump faster and pump more oil so I can kill it. The 660 was the first saw I couldn't kill so that tells me it has more ass than the rest. I'm positive the 660 will kill the 461 below 8000 rpms. More low end grunt means you can dig in the felling spikes and pull a little more as the saw will keep chugging without stalling.


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> :agree2: i sold mine and bought a 390xp and couldn't be happier.


 Send me that 390 xp. It'll Probably loose all its screws on the dyno then blow:hmm3grin2orange:



treeslayer2003 said:


> both saws stock?


 Both saws have dual port mufflers


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Send me that 390 xp. It'll Probably loose all its screws on the dyno then blow:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Both saws have dual port mufflers



otstir: oke: :jester:


----------



## spencerpaving (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Lets not bash the 660 so much. It will handle a larger bar better than the 461 will. It's got 20% more power at 8800 rpms. A 9 pin sprocket is on the way so I can test the 660 at lower rpms. The 9 pin will spin the pump faster and pump more oil so I can kill it. The 660 was the first saw I couldn't kill so that tells me it has more ass than the rest. I'm positive the 660 will kill the 461 below 8000 rpms. More low end grunt means you can dig in the felling spikes and pull a little more as the saw will keep chugging without stalling.



Sorry I couldn't help it, I think you are doing a great job!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jul 30, 2013)

there's lots of 660's around here killing trees everyday ,they work fine in the wood around here


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

I'll test the saws again tonight with an 8 pin. This should get the low rpm torque I'm thinking the 660 has greatly over the 461
.


----------



## Justsaws (Jul 30, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> I would like to see the 660 tested again with a respectable MM, as the saw was designed before the EPA messed it up.



Might just be brilliant marketing before the release of the next generation of saws, especially since it involves a different technology. If you can make the old lame then the new will seem much more brilliant and perhaps more worth a rather impressive price increase.


----------



## ernurse (Jul 30, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> I would like to see the 660 tested again with a respectable MM, as the saw was designed before the EPA messed it up.



Yeah I noticed a difference at least in throttle response after I removed the epa choked up muffler from my 660. The exhaust outlet is smaller than most 50cc saws.

Im really hoping my beloved 660 is not a $1000 turd.


----------



## jockeydeuce (Jul 30, 2013)

I would love to see a comparison of these against a strong, stock 064.....660 has never impressed me either.otstir:


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jul 30, 2013)

jockeydeuce said:


> I would love to see a comparison of these against a strong, stock 064.....660 has never impressed me either.otstir:



yes, and maybe an early 066. should be interesting if can find them.


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

jockeydeuce said:


> I would love to see a comparison of these against a strong, stock 064.....660 has never impressed me either.otstir:



Send one.


----------



## jockeydeuce (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Send one.



I just finished an 064 and I would send it for play time, but that darn 49th parallel between us makes it too pricey!:msp_angry:


----------



## maico490 (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> I'll test the saws again tonight with an 8 pin. This should get the low rpm torque I'm thinking the 660 has greatly over the 461
> .



Keep up the good work Chadiman. I've been following your dyno build threads since you started them and am very impressed with your build. I used to work for a diesel engine manufacturer back in the eighties and the standard way of testing them was with water brakes. Basically the engine turned a turbine supported in trunnions and the torque was measured by an arm with a glorified spring balance (with counterweighting for different power outputs so as not to go overscale) Yes the water got hot and the valving had to be adjusted to allow for it but it made no difference to the torque being measured.
You will have losses from the chain drive so you won't get the crankshaft figures quoted from the manufacturers. But surprise surprise a chainsaw won't cut wood without a bar and chain attached to it so the readings you are getting will be much more real world. Cars are tested on rolling roads and the figures aren't what the factories quote at the crank.
You could correct for temperature, humidity and barometric pressure but comparisons on a given day compared to a base saw like you have been doing are just fine. Even after correction I know from experience that the SAE and ISO standards allow a lot of wriggle room for the statisticians to get the answers that the marketing department were after.
I also admire your patience in answering all the naysayers who have been on your back but trust me you are on the right lines


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

Hers a short video to just show how the rotating pump housing works and how the torque arm has vibration dampers that flex as a preset load is applied.[video=youtube_share;eFcdx5Cyl04]http://youtu.be/eFcdx5Cyl04[/video]


----------



## wyk (Jul 30, 2013)

*Torque*

Did you say your set up recorded ft lbs and you extrapolated HP, or do you do it the other way around?
I am curious to see the % difference in torque between these two saws.


----------



## jeepyfz450 (Jul 30, 2013)

Where in pa are you? I am close to the border.


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

reindeer said:


> Did you say your set up recorded ft lbs and you extrapolated HP, or do you do it the other way around?
> I am curious to see the % difference in torque between these two saws.



I record torque then figure Hp from torque and rpms


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> Where in pa are you? I am close to the border.



Northwest Lancaster county. Less than ten min drive from Hershey Pa.


----------



## jeepyfz450 (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Northwest Lancaster county. Less than ten min drive from Hershey Pa.



Wish we were closet I have a few Saws that would be fun to test. Ported 660s can be built to scream. I have ran a few nasty ones.


----------



## wyk (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> I record torque then figure Hp from torque and rpms



So how much torque did ya get out of that 660 before you couldn't stop it?


----------



## Officer's Match (Jul 30, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> Wish we were closet I have a few Saws that would be fun to test. Ported 660s can be built to scream. I have ran a few nasty ones.



I ran a fresh 660 up at the OH GTG in June that Copsey ported, and that baby made luscious torque - one bad dude.


----------



## wyk (Jul 30, 2013)

Officer's Match said:


> I ran a fresh one up at the OH GTG in June that Copsey ported, and that baby made luscious torque - one bad dude.



Exactly. He just had a 660 literally go off the scales, and everyone is shouting "4 6 1, 4 6 1!". Am I the only one that finds this odd?


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

reindeer said:


> Exactly. He just had a 660 literally go off the scales, and everyone is shouting "4 6 1, 4 6 1!". Am I the only one that finds this odd?



The 660 pulled heavy torque and my dyno ran out of muscle to hold it below 8000 rpms. I could pull my 460 down until the clutch slipped around 4000 rpms. I could pull the 461 down to 6500 or so. The hyd pump actually smoked when I tried to pull the 660 down lower. That's why I said lets not bash the 660. Who knows maybe the 660 will have 50% more torque at 6000 rpms. The 460 and 461 max hp is around 9000 rpms and the 660 kept gaining hp the harder I pulled it so maybe it will have the 1 hp more like stihls specs say.

Sorry guys, I'm not going to get to retest tonight. I got a 9 pin sprocket today but I need a little longer cutterless chain for it. My plan is to get a little higher flow pump so I can kill the big ported saws without having to add a nine pin sprocket. The next size northern tool pump will bolt right in and the shaft size is the same.


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> I record torque then figure Hp from torque and rpms



All that really matters with longer bars and full comp.

Grind some of that bar off if you need to go forward till the slot runs out of room then slot it more.


----------



## blsnelling (Jul 30, 2013)

Is there any reason to test the RPMs that low? A saw should not be lugged that low in normal operation.


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Is there any reason to test the RPMs that low? A saw should not be lugged that low in normal operation.



The big bars will get you down In low rpms sometimes. The smaller saws stall while the higher torque saws can handle it. It's also just fun to make them grunt.


----------



## blsnelling (Jul 30, 2013)

Maybre it's just me, but if I see someone reefing on a saw like that, I figure they either need to sharpen their chain, and/or learn how to operate it. That's hard on the saw and operator.


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Maybre it's just me, but if I see someone reefing on a saw like that, I figure they either need to sharpen their chain, and/or learn how to operate it. That's hard on the saw and operator.



You never had a saw grab and stall? High torque saws are not as easy to stall. It's exactly why the 660 shines with a big bar buried. My chains are always sharp. And I'll make my saws cry if I want to.:mad2: Reefing has something to do with a sail boat not a chainsaw:biggrin:
Just sayin


----------



## chadihman (Jul 30, 2013)

Just messing with ya Brad. I know what your saying


----------



## blsnelling (Jul 30, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Just messing with ya Brad. I know what your saying



I wasn't suggesting that you operate your saws like that in the wood


----------



## wyk (Jul 31, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Is there any reason to test the RPMs that low? A saw should not be lugged that low in normal operation.



The second the wind pushes a tree a fraction of an inch, your 660 will see 8000 rpms. If it has the torque, it won't then go on to see 0 rpms.


----------



## chadihman (Jul 31, 2013)

reindeer said:


> your 660 will see 8000 rpms. If it has the torque, it won't then go on to see 0 rpms.



That's what I was thinking. Yep the low end torque will keep it up out of the stalling point.


----------



## 7sleeper (Jul 31, 2013)

reindeer said:


> Exactly. He just had a 660 literally go off the scales, and everyone is shouting "4 6 1, 4 6 1!". Am I the only one that finds this odd?



660!? Isn't that the saw you run with a chain without rakers..... 

:hmm3grin2orange:

7


----------



## nomad_archer (Aug 1, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Northwest Lancaster county. Less than ten min drive from Hershey Pa.




Wow I am really close to you. I be there is a ton I could learn from you. Well if you want to be the teacher that is.


----------



## wyk (Aug 1, 2013)

nomad_archer said:


> Wow I am really close to you. I be there is a ton I could learn from you. Well if you want to be the teacher that is.



I bet you say that to all the ladies.


----------



## nomad_archer (Aug 1, 2013)

reindeer said:


> I bet you say that to all the ladies.



:hmm3grin2orange: I didn't realize how creepy that was until I re-read it.


----------



## chadihman (Aug 1, 2013)

nomad_archer said:


> Wow I am really close to you. I be there is a ton I could learn from you. Well if you want to be the teacher that is.



So what is it you want to learn? I know exactly were brickerville is. I grew up in Manheim and went to Manheim Central school district witch is even closer to you. I'm now in Elizabethtown


----------



## wyk (Aug 1, 2013)

nomad_archer said:


> :hmm3grin2orange: I didn't realize how creepy that was until I re-read it.



I bet all the ladies say that to you.


----------



## Wood Doctor (Aug 1, 2013)

There isn't a logger around here who would ever trade his 660 for a 461. Most of them are running 36" bars. They say the 461 will have trouble. Simple as that.

On the other hand, a vintage 046 upgraded with a Big Bore? That might produce another story. :msp_rolleyes:


----------



## chadihman (Aug 1, 2013)

Wood Doctor said:


> There isn't a logger around here who would ever trade his 660 for a 461. Most of them are running 36" bars. They say the 461 will have trouble. Simple as that.
> 
> On the other hand, a vintage 046 upgraded with a Big Bore? That might produce another story. :msp_rolleyes:



Why does it have to be a vintage 046 BB. Wouldn't a 460 BB be the same. I thought the 046 advantage was in the jug ports and d shaped squish band


----------



## nomad_archer (Aug 2, 2013)

chadihman said:


> So what is it you want to learn? I know exactly were brickerville is. I grew up in Manheim and went to Manheim Central school district witch is even closer to you. I'm now in Elizabethtown



I am still pretty new to chainsaws I am learn in the maintenance part but I really want to know how to tune them properly and understand how the motors work that kind of thing. Alot of that is on here but seeing is sometimes helpful.


----------



## nomad_archer (Aug 2, 2013)

reindeer said:


> I bet all the ladies say that to you.



Nah the wife doesnt let me out often with a 16 month old and I really dont like people anyways.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Aug 2, 2013)

The handheld tools section has me wondering if 
We'll see a fan box attachment for the dyno.

http://www.arboristsite.com/hand-held-equipment-tools/241389.htm 

I'm still thinking of some manor of a perforated vertical pipe
with a weighted slug in it, an elbow at the base....


----------



## ernurse (Aug 2, 2013)

LegDeLimber said:


> The handheld tools section has me wondering if
> We'll see a fan box attachment for the dyno.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/hand-held-equipment-tools/241389.htm
> ...



Dozerdan has a modded (ported) blower. I forget which brand it is....but i definately saw it.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Wood Doctor (Aug 2, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Why does it have to be a vintage 046 BB. Wouldn't a 460 BB be the same. I thought the 046 advantage was in the jug ports and d shaped squish band


I suppose only because the 046 is bound to have a bunch more hours on it. The one floating around here is pushing 16 years old and still runs but could use new rings. I also like the way the muffler is ported on the 046. And, yes, a 460 BB would be almost the same. A few purists might detect some differences, but I doubt any are major.


----------



## chadihman (Aug 2, 2013)

Tonight I put an 8 pin sprocket on the 660 I tried to pull this torque monster down to read torque on lower rpms. I got the saw down to 7500 rpms but the rpms and torque were fluctuating to much. It wasn't long before smoke started rolling off the pump. The pump gets hot enough to fry an egg but the oil in the tank never made it to 125 deg. I think the high torque of the 660 is to much for my pump and the high pressure is causing the pump to recirculate the oil inside the pump. I need to get a new larger displacement hyd pump so the dyno is down for awhile.:msp_sad:


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Aug 2, 2013)

yep, its bypassing. I am surprised tho.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Aug 2, 2013)

I watched a guy running a mid sized dozer (can't recall brand now) as he cleared a lot off.
There was an old oak to come out and the stump was nearly as big as the dozer.
(must be a hoot to be a mechanic for rental heavy equipment)

It's hard red clay here and was mostly dry at the time, not quite crumbly dirt ball stays together conditions..
The old tree took a good bit of bucket corner under the roots and machine grunting hard,
2/3 of the tracks in the air at about 30 degrees stuff for a good while...

Dozer looked to be all hydro driven and Really made me wonder what temp of the oil was 
inside the pump body during that couple of hours of that loading.


----------



## WheresWally (Aug 3, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> :agree2: i sold mine and bought a 390xp and couldn't be happier.



Go cut a <2 foot hardwood log then, you will never be sadder...

Don't get me wrong, i love my 390 but there is no way i could sit here and say it is better than a 660 in big hard wood and keep a straight face.


----------



## imagineero (Aug 3, 2013)

I think this will become a better and better tool information wise as more data is recorded, but I'm also willing to bet if you got 10 of the exact same model of saw, all stock, you'd get 10 different readings. I've often owned 2 or 3 of the same model of saw at a time, often with the same bar/chain combo. There'll always be a 'good one' and a dog. It's very obvious when you run them too. Take the 200T for example. I've usually got 3 on the run at a time, all with 12" bars. But after a year or two they carbs start to get a bit crappy. The older one probably has more compression than the newer one, but the old one just won't pull as hard. Nothing you can do with a tuning screwdriver will change that. It still revs out all the way, spools up fast, you can pressure and vac test the crankcase, compression test it and all the numbers are fine. But bury it in wood and it just won't pull as hard as a newer one. Put a new carb on it and BAM. The old one is kicking the new one's butt. 

I think 20-30% variations between saws of the same model would not be out of the question. Take an unusually good example of saw A and compare it to an unusually bad example of saw B and you don't really get a good comparison. After testing enough examples of the same model of saw there'll be a pretty clear trend and you'll get a baseline for what an average 660 will do, what a real good one might run, and what a dog might put out. 

It's the same story with cars, motorbikes, stationary plant etc.... They're not all identical in output. Each one is unique.

Shaun


----------



## chadihman (Aug 3, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I think this will become a better and better tool information wise as more data is recorded, but I'm also willing to bet if you got 10 of the exact same model of saw, all stock, you'd get 10 different readings. I've often owned 2 or 3 of the same model of saw at a time, often with the same bar/chain combo. There'll always be a 'good one' and a dog. It's very obvious when you run them too. Take the 200T for example. I've usually got 3 on the run at a time, all with 12" bars. But after a year or two they carbs start to get a bit crappy. The older one probably has more compression than the newer one, but the old one just won't pull as hard. Nothing you can do with a tuning screwdriver will change that. It still revs out all the way, spools up fast, you can pressure and vac test the crankcase, compression test it and all the numbers are fine. But bury it in wood and it just won't pull as hard as a newer one. Put a new carb on it and BAM. The old one is kicking the new one's butt.
> 
> I think 20-30% variations between saws of the same model would not be out of the question. Take an unusually good example of saw A and compare it to an unusually bad example of saw B and you don't really get a good comparison. After testing enough examples of the same model of saw there'll be a pretty clear trend and you'll get a baseline for what an average 660 will do, what a real good one might run, and what a dog might put out.
> 
> ...



Very true. I had a new 460 one time that really ran better than the rest. I notice the stock port timing #'s are different from saw to saw. A baseline saw will always work. The base line saw should get tested with my ported test saw in every port change.


----------



## imagineero (Aug 3, 2013)

I don't know how many guys are living close to you... having people ship saws must be slow and painful at both ends. The comparisons between different models of saws doesn't need to be on the same day, so long as you use your baseline saw to calibrate at each day. It would be interesting if you could host a day of testing one model of saw... say, test a dozen 660's in a day. or a dozen 372's. or whatever. That kind of data really would be interesting. I guess it's mostly academic anyhow. Of course it doesn't give you the info that I think most guys want on here... The real questions are probably related to the gains you get from different mods.


----------



## shwinecat (Aug 3, 2013)

This dyno down the road or very near future is really going to take porting, tuning and the ability for the guys trying to get more out of saws to the next level. Once the dyno is dialed in and can be reproduced the tuners like Mastermind, Treemonkey, Brad and all the rest will need to have one. Then porting will really go to the next level. 

The local race engine builder here in Town (Sturdy Race Engines) got their dyno 10 to 12 years ago. The shop manager stated when they first got the dyno he had reservations. Take a 10 to 20 thousand dollar motor and push it to the limits. It can be very spendy if you push it to far. He has stated flat out since the dyno the motors they put out are soooooooo!!! much better. It's not only gives them proof what direction works better but it almost eliminates the outside variables. Meaning they clear up a lot of the ignition, carb and other varibles outside of the main motor build. He hardly ever has a motor leave the shop that is not put on the dyno. They usually test with their carb, ignition and other equipment first because they know it works and then the engine owners bring their stuff in to be put on the motor. The owner gets the dyno print out from each test run on the motor so they know exactly what the motor is putting out.

This all takes time and you cannot do it for free. Time is money. The shop has found their sales has increased do to the dyno. They sell more carbs, ignition, intake, valves... you get the picture. They charge $100.00 to dyno the motor. Less than 10% of the build. I did not mean to side track this thread I am just so happy we are moving this direction. The GTG are going to be awesome in the future.


----------



## MCW (Aug 3, 2013)

I know the numbers may be similar as far as torque goes but I've spoken to two full time firewood cutters recently that have been told by Stihl dealers that the 461 will keep up with their 660's. They have both then bought 461's and been very disappointed. Talking stock saws here as well. Their 461's certainly do the job, but both guys have mentioned that the 660's just do everything easier. Apart from their balance and fuel consumption I'm a secret fan of the 660's.



WheresWally said:


> Go cut a <2 foot hardwood log then, you will never be sadder...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, i love my 390 but there is no way i could sit here and say it is better than a 660 in big hard wood and keep a straight face.



A 660 will certainly out torque a 390XP but the isn't much in it. Also by the time you've filled up your fuel guzzling 660 the 390 will be well in front 
(Heh heh. I've owned both as well).


----------



## IEL (Aug 3, 2013)

Are there complete plans/diagrams of this dyno out there? I would love to put one together.
See just how much torque some of the classic muscle saws have. Pioneer p series, 5 cube cart Mcculloch, PM canadien 270, big homelite gear drives, super ez, ect

The leaf blower dyno sounds interesting, as I have said several times, I have an echo pb200 with a muffler mod that is a real monster.

If I do get one together, it would be open for use by any AS member who feels like a visit. I know one member in my town who might have some fun with it.... LOL


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm really expecting the 661 to be all about torque through and through. This dyno couldn't have come out at a better time. Thanks for going through the trouble to make one!


----------



## chadihman (Aug 3, 2013)

IEL said:


> Are there complete plans/diagrams of this dyno out there? I would love to put one together.
> See just how much torque some of the classic muscle saws have. Pioneer p series, 5 cube cart Mcculloch, PM canadien 270, big homelite gear drives, super ez, ect
> 
> The leaf blower dyno sounds interesting, as I have said several times, I have an echo pb200 with a muffler mod that is a real monster.
> ...



Here's the blueprint




Heres all the info you need to build onehttp://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/230512.htmhttp://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/236144.htmhttp://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/240223.htm
Happy reading:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## IEL (Aug 3, 2013)

I think I will put one together. I could likely scrounge most of the parts from the shop and sheds of the museum I work at.
How is the arm going to the load cell connected to the pump? (Im on a phone and wont be able to easily do all that reading until tomorrow)


----------



## chadihman (Aug 3, 2013)

IEL said:


> I think I will put one together. I could likely scrounge most of the parts from the shop and sheds of the museum I work at.
> How is the arm going to the load cell connected to the pump? (Im on a phone and wont be able to easily do all that reading until tomorrow)


Look at the second link I posted. It has lots of pictures.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Aug 4, 2013)

IEL said:


> I think I will put one together. I could likely scrounge most of the parts from the shop and sheds of the museum I work at.



Major bonus points IF you can figure a way to build a museum display version while you're at it.
kinda hard to imagine a running saw in a cage or something...
But three's been plenty of bicycle and hand crank stuff done already.

there was a bicycle type blower rigged to a wireframe vertical tube that had recirculate-able ball in it.
Object was to try pedaling fast enough to pump the ball over the top and see how much energy it took.
Would always watch people get on it and work up and up, never get the ball over.
I used to blast the ball out of the top of the tube by simply hammering the pedals for 
about 5~6 revs.
Don't know why exactly, but it was the first thing that came to mind and I just tried it.
something just sorta rolled in my brain about air flow patterns and inertia and spreading
and so on etc... 
lacking a formal education often makes it tough to explain some things 
and working alone means you don't develop the needed vocabulary either.
(and that may be evident in my missives around here)


----------



## 7sleeper (Aug 4, 2013)

Hey chadihman,

I was wondering, since you intend to put a larger hydro pump on your setup, would it be bad for testing smaller saws? I don't know. But I believe it would be a simple setup then to run two pumps in paralell with shut off valves. So you could use the pump you just need?!

Just a thought by an interested reader.

7


----------



## dozerdan (Aug 4, 2013)

ernurse said:


> Dozerdan has a modded (ported) blower. I forget which brand it is....but i definately saw it.:hmm3grin2orange:



The blower is just a cheap home owner Poulan. I picked up two at a yard sale for 7 dollars and made one out of the two. It is ported and it runs an 024 carb. Next time your here I will let you run it and my Stihl FS85 trimmer, ported with an 026 carb.

Later
Dan


----------



## IEL (Aug 4, 2013)

LegDeLimber said:


> Major bonus points IF you can figure a way to build a museum display version while you're at it.
> kinda hard to imagine a running saw in a cage or something...
> But three's been plenty of bicycle and hand crank stuff done already.
> 
> ...



This place is an outdoor farming museum. I could easily have hot saw races durring events if I wanted to... LOL
Hey that gives me an idea for the fall fair.... LOL


----------



## Nitroman (Aug 4, 2013)

shwinecat said:


> This dyno down the road or very near future is really going to take porting, tuning and the ability for the guys trying to get more out of saws to the next level. Once the dyno is dialed in and can be reproduced the tuners like Mastermind, Treemonkey, Brad and all the rest will need to have one. Then porting will really go to the next level.
> 
> The local race engine builder here in Town (Sturdy Race Engines) got their dyno 10 to 12 years ago. The shop manager stated when they first got the dyno he had reservations. Take a 10 to 20 thousand dollar motor and push it to the limits. It can be very spendy if you push it to far. He has stated flat out since the dyno the motors they put out are soooooooo!!! much better. It's not only gives them proof what direction works better but it almost eliminates the outside variables. Meaning they clear up a lot of the ignition, carb and other varibles outside of the main motor build. He hardly ever has a motor leave the shop that is not put on the dyno. They usually test with their carb, ignition and other equipment first because they know it works and then the engine owners bring their stuff in to be put on the motor. The owner gets the dyno print out from each test run on the motor so they know exactly what the motor is putting out.
> 
> This all takes time and you cannot do it for free. Time is money. The shop has found their sales has increased do to the dyno. They sell more carbs, ignition, intake, valves... you get the picture. They charge $100.00 to dyno the motor. Less than 10% of the build. I did not mean to side track this thread I am just so happy we are moving this direction. The GTG are going to be awesome in the future.



Back a few years ago when I had suggested building a dyno just for this purpose and said essentially the same thing about engine refinement, I was portrayed as an idiot by the prima donna builders (gone now thank goodness), and thier sycophants. Good this is happening now.


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Aug 4, 2013)

The dynamometer is the most valuable tool for research and development work. Without data you have no idea what works and does not work, or why it works or does not work. Yes I run a dyno for a living, just answering that question before it's asked.


----------



## chadihman (Aug 4, 2013)

I think ported chainsaws are going to be taken to a new level especially if some well known saw builders get a dyno. I'm not sure what the porters think about this dyno cause it was only Randy that talked about owning this one. I'd be interested in building a few more if anyone interested.


----------



## shwinecat (Aug 11, 2013)

chadihman said:


> I think ported chainsaws are going to be taken to a new level especially if some well known saw builders get a dyno. I'm not sure what the porters think about this dyno cause it was only Randy that talked about owning this one. I'd be interested in building a few more if anyone interested.



Now that is stepping up to the plate. Thanks for your efforts and using your ability to take things to the next level.


----------



## chadihman (Aug 11, 2013)

shwinecat said:


> Now that is stepping up to the plate. Thanks for your efforts and using your ability to take things to the next level.



Thanks! I enjoy testing and sharing the results. I hope I'm not making any saw builders angry. Randy has been quiet on my posts lately. Please let me know if what I'm posting is wrong.


----------



## Hill billy (Mar 14, 2014)

Chadihman I think what you are trying to do is get on testing these saw . But on the other hand I think your in way over your head you posted numbers on here that are bs. I thought this page was for good information . A guy who has a tractor on his signature should know how a dyno works. If you can put a good pull on it you can test it . I also love it when people say a 461 will out cut a 660 in wood up to 24" this to is just bs . If you really want to see what your 461 is mad though a bigger pin sprocket on both of them and see what happens pretty sure you won't be bragging on your 461 for long . All I'm trying to say is the 660 is the 461 bigger brother but with that being said I don't think stihl had planned on people running a 660 with a 20" bar cutting small rounds .


----------



## splitpost (Mar 14, 2014)

Probbly didnt expect people to run 25" bars on 880's either but thats how they come here standard from stihl


----------



## CR888 (Mar 14, 2014)

l think it suits the builders just fine that chainsaw dynos are only found at two places, masdens & chadihman's. l think what has been achieved by chadihman in his backyard is great and while the builders may initially be scared of the dyno...it's really their best friend if they are truly serious about increasing hp in saws. lt varifies what mods are really doing. Alot of motorcross riders l used to ride with would think that their AM pipe was making them go faster and believed they could definately notice the difference but the true facts are us mortals are quite hopeless at measuring gains and often a noisier pipe made riders 'feel' that they were going faster but the stopwatch never lies and often a decrease in power combined with an increase in sound fooled many o rider. l'm running 2 get my flame suit now!lol


----------



## Moparmyway (Mar 14, 2014)

Hill billy said:


> But on the other hand I think your in way over your head you posted numbers on here that are bs. I thought this page was for good information . A guy who has a tractor on his signature should know how a dyno works.


 
Holy cow !!!!!!!!
A new dude calling out a well respected, proven genius. What Chadihman has done was basically considered impossible by most. He did it well, and made it look easy while he did it. The only bs I see is what youre throwing ......................for cryingoutloud ............... 3 posts and just joined Saturday. YOU have alot to learn


----------



## MCW (Mar 14, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> Holy cow !!!!!!!!
> A new dude calling out a well respected, proven genius. What Chadihman has done was basically considered impossible by most. He did it well, and made it look easy while he did it. The only bs I see is what youre throwing ......................for cryingoutloud ............... 3 posts and just joined Saturday. YOU have alot to learn



Welcome to the new Arboristsite  I started a thread about this sort of thing a while back. Guess who whined about it and guess who liked the thread and agreed with me...


----------



## CR888 (Mar 14, 2014)

lts good too see Chad's thread revived....he has offered to test saws, compare members/builders saws and make a contribution to this place that would help us all understand things better. lt just seems he gets the door slammed in his face and told his dyno is s#&t. l bet the naysayers could'nt build one nor understand how usefull a tool like this is. lf l built saws for a living l could not think of a more usefull piece of kit full stop!


----------



## porsche965 (Mar 14, 2014)

Hill billy said:


> Chadihman I think what you are trying to do is get on testing these saw . But on the other hand I think your in way over your head you posted numbers on here that are bs. I thought this page was for good information . A guy who has a tractor on his signature should know how a dyno works. If you can put a good pull on it you can test it . I also love it when people say a 461 will out cut a 660 in wood up to 24" this to is just bs . If you really want to see what your 461 is mad though a bigger pin sprocket on both of them and see what happens pretty sure you won't be bragging on your 461 for long . All I'm trying to say is the 660 is the 461 bigger brother but with that being said I don't think stihl had planned on people running a 660 with a 20" bar cutting small rounds .



His name matches his post perfectly. The only thing that is correct.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 14, 2014)

happy late b day Matt!
hill billy, how about some info on you? are you a logger or some one who runs both saws? you cannot just say that with out having used both. I do own and use both, I will say the 660 WAS a turd until I had it ported. the 461 was dam nice right out the box.


----------



## stihlaficionado (Mar 14, 2014)

Roll Tide said:


> 660=turd Haha :taped:


Yup…that's why Stihl has sold tens of thousands of these saws to loggers, tree services & hobbyists alike.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 14, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> happy late b day Matt!
> hill billy, how about some info on you? are you a logger or some one who runs both saws? you cannot just say that with out having used both. I do own and use both, I will say the 660 WAS a turd until I had it ported. the 461 was dam nice right out the box.


 

Exactly right. I wouldn't call the stock 660 a turd but a few simple mods makes a whole different and better saw out of it. The 461, stock out of the box, impresses me more than any saw I've seen in a long time.

As far as Chad goes, he's invested a lot of his own time and money in something that can be of benefit to all of us. We owe him for his efforts and his dedication. Most people realize that. I think hill billy needs to spend a little more, maybe a lot more, time here before he starts running his mouth about something he obviously doesn't understand.


----------



## MCW (Mar 14, 2014)

Gologit said:


> I think hill billy needs to spend a little more, maybe a lot more, time here before he starts running his mouth about something he obviously doesn't understand.



Mouth running from the get go is run of the mill now mate. Once upon a time people asked questions, listened and learned, and actually respected older members. If they disagreed with something and felt the need to comment they did so respectfully.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 14, 2014)

oh don't get me wrong, 660 is a good saw, just not the bigger better 064 I thought it would be. now after being worked on, it is what it should be. just sayin, as stock it is not the same only bigger as the 1128s.
I hope he comes back to talk and let us know what he does with saws.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 14, 2014)

MCW said:


> ​
> Mouth running from the get go is run of the mill now mate. Once upon a time people asked questions, listened and learned, and actually respected older members. If they disagreed with something and felt the need to comment they did so respectfully.




LOL...You're starting to sound like a certain beat up old Northern California logger I know well. Better watch out, people will start thinking you're as grumpy as he is. 


And tell those damn kids to get off of my lawn!


----------



## Gologit (Mar 14, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> oh don't get me wrong, 660 is a good saw, just not the bigger better 064 I thought it would be. now after being worked on, it is what it should be. just sayin, as stock it is not the same only bigger as the 1128s.
> I hope he comes back to talk and let us know what he does with saws.



I agree. The first 066 I bought wasn't as strong as I thought it should be. I thought it would be a big improvement over the 064. It wasn't. The first 660 I bought was a step down from that.
I bought another 660 to have modded...just out of curiosity. TreeSlingr turned a so-so saw into a good faller's saw. Quite a difference.


----------



## RedFir Down (Mar 14, 2014)

Hey hilly billy how exactly do you spell dumb..... D-U-M??


----------



## MCW (Mar 14, 2014)

Gologit said:


> LOL...You're starting to sound like a certain beat up old Northern California logger I know well. Better watch out, people will start thinking you're as grumpy as he is.
> 
> 
> And tell those damn kids to get off of my lawn!



Is his name Bob?


----------



## windthrown (Mar 14, 2014)

MCW said:


> Mouth running from the get go is run of the mill now mate. Once upon a time people asked questions, listened and learned, and actually respected older members. If they disagreed with something and felt the need to comment they did so respectfully.


 
Yah, once upon a time they had a thing on this site called rep. They also frowned upon people diving in and stirring the shyte, especially if they did not have any experience with what they are running on about. We would simply bury these posts with neg rep, and they would be gone pretty fast, glowing bright red. As MCW has been griping about here of late, many a noob comes along and smack mouths this or that, seemingly at random and with zero experience in what they are posting about. Its an epidemic: 660s suck, dynos suck, used motor oil is great for bars, TCW-3 oil makes great saw premix oil, Husky sucks, Stihl sucks, So and so's ported saws suck, 100 octane leaded AVgas is great for huffing, Chicom knock-offs are the best, yadda yadda...

I liked my 066s. They were good saws. Both had magnum dual port mufflers though, and some internal tinkering done to them. Blew the clutch bearing out in one, and sold it off as parts in Ebay. I sold the other one as I do not use it enough to justify the shelf space. They do suck gas though... I will admit to that.


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 14, 2014)

My 066 walks all over my 461 tried my 461 for the first time today with a 25. The chain stopped in the wood several times. Haven't tried my 660 yet.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 14, 2014)

if its a new saw then it will get much better.....if not then its not right.
mine wears a 28 and eat hard wood up......it did take a bit to break in.


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 14, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> if its a new saw then it will get much better.....if not then its not right.
> mine wears a 28 and eat hard wood up......it did take a bit to break in.


It's 1.5 years old the chain is sharp but not much left on it. The bar seems bent a little too . I will try the 25 bar and chain off my 066 and see if it's better. I mean it's strong but not near an 066 .


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 14, 2014)

if you gat an early 066 then they were pretty good. but at 25" shouldn't be really any faster.


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 14, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> if you gat an early 066 then they were pretty good. but at 25" shouldn't be really any faster.


Did you mm yours.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 14, 2014)

no, my 461 is still bone stock. my 660 is ported. it with a 32 is about the same as the 461 with a 28 in the same wood.
both run 7 pin sprockets.


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 14, 2014)

I think the chain is crap. The rakers look too low. I will get a new chain. Also there seems to be a big dent in the front of the muffler. I'm guessing it's not suppose to be there. ?


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 14, 2014)

lol, I don't think so. you must have got it used, no telling what previous owner put it through.


----------



## Hill billy (Mar 16, 2014)

Hey guys to those I upset with my last post I'm sorry maybe I should have went at it in a different angle .Let's step back a couple steps who am I some ask . Im just your average mild age man with a degree in mechanical engineering. I went to school at Massachusetts institute of technology in Cambridge ma. I work Virginia Beach , Virginia and yes I am a hill billy . With that being said I think its great what you are tryin to do with the dyno just found your numbers that had been posted to be a little off. I wish you would have followed up with the numbers after you figured out your dyno wasn't pulling the right ones.With that being said I think some had a few things to say about respect . I see this as a two way street Maybe we should show a little more respect to those who work so hard to bring use these fine saws. The 461 does run great from the start or to say stock. Does it run better then the ms 660? No!!!! Maybe we should set back a thank some people for putting that single port muffler on it witch is so easily to mod to bring this saw to life. Let's not forget guys I'm pretty sure this is done do to the EPA . To all the Saw builders out there you don't really need a dyno to know how your work is doing put a sharp chain on her and let the saw do the talking and keep up the great work. One last things guys would love to see all the positive and negative things on the 661 let use know. If you took the time to read all of this thank you And keep a Stihl in your hands.


----------



## MCW (Mar 16, 2014)

Hill billy said:


> Hey guys to those I upset with my last post I'm sorry maybe I should have went at it in a different angle .Let's step back a couple steps who am I some ask . Im just your average mild age man with a degree in mechanical engineering. I went to school at Massachusetts institute of technology in Cambridge ma. I work Virginia Beach , Virginia and yes I am a hill billy . With that being said I think its great what you are tryin to do with the dyno just found your numbers that had been posted to be a little off. I wish you would have followed up with the numbers after you figured out your dyno wasn't pulling the right ones.With that being said I think some had a few things to say about respect . I see this as a two way street Maybe we should show a little more respect to those who work so hard to bring use these fine saws. The 461 does run great from the start or to say stock. Does it run better then the ms 660? No!!!! Maybe we should set back a thank some people for putting that single port muffler on it witch is so easily to mod to bring this saw to life. Let's not forget guys I'm pretty sure this is done do to the EPA . To all the Saw builders out there you don't really need a dyno to know how your work is doing put a sharp chain on her and let the saw do the talking and keep up the great work. One last things guys would love to see all the positive and negative things on the 661 let use know. If you took the time to read all of this thank you And keep a Stihl in your hands.



Well mate you are a rare new guy to actually apologise so kudos to you  I think the comment that rubbed a few people up the wrong way was your "BS" comment. That came across a bit blunt and harsh, particularly in your first post. Explaining why you think the OP's dyno results were wrong would have helped a lot.
On another note I 100% agree with you about a stock 461 beating a stock 660. I hear a lot of guys saying that in small wood my "insert small saw here" will beat my "insert big saw here". The 461's are a very strong saw though, no doubt about it. A 17cc odd difference in capacity is a lot to cover though when no porting is involved.
If these guys leant into both saws I'm sure they would have a different opinion. I did a video up a while ago with my two ported Dolmar 7900's, my ported 390XPG, and my bog stock Husky 3120 in 22" odd hardwood with the same bar and chain. The 3120 ran last and the RSC chain was starting to get visibly beaten up. All had the same size rims fitted. The 3120 absolutely flogged the other saws by a considerable margin.
If small saws could indeed hand a larger saw their arse in smaller wood (all things being equal) then they wouldn't have capacity classes in chainsaw racing.

***If anybody owns both a 461 and 660 please insert comparison video here...


----------



## weedkilla (Mar 16, 2014)

Hill billy said:


> . With that being said I think its great what you are tryin to do with the dyno just found your numbers that had been posted to be a little off. I wish you would have followed up with the numbers after you figured out your dyno wasn't pulling the right ones.



I'm not so sure I get the point here, the limitations of a prototype dyno were disclosed, the numbers presented were never meant to be considered as anything other than numbers relative to each other. At no time was any inference made that the torque figures had been corrected, but they were relevant to each other. If 1 saw makes 5 bananas at 8000rpm and the other makes 4 bananas at 8000rpm it's still a valid result. 
As I read the thread, the limitations only presented themselves when trying to pull a 660 down to below what I would consider a working range anyway.


----------



## chadihman (Mar 16, 2014)

Hill billy said:


> Chadihman I think what you are trying to do is get on testing these saw . But on the other hand I think your in way over your head you posted numbers on here that are bs. I thought this page was for good information . A guy who has a tractor on his signature should know how a dyno works. If you can put a good pull on it you can test it . I also love it when people say a 461 will out cut a 660 in wood up to 24" this to is just bs . If you really want to see what your 461 is mad though a bigger pin sprocket on both of them and see what happens pretty sure you won't be bragging on your 461 for long . All I'm trying to say is the 660 is the 461 bigger brother but with that being said I don't think stihl had planned on people running a 660 with a 20" bar cutting small rounds .



Wow... I thought this thread was dead. Welcome hill billy!
I never said a 461 would take the place of a 660???. I built this dyno without a bunch of money or a college degree. Its main purpose is to test changes made to HP and torque from mods made to a chainsaw. I use a base saw to test against the modded saw to check the increase or decreased HP and torque. By the way I do know how a dyno works I just don't have the money to make it meet your expectations.

Could you please school me on how a dyno works hill billy? Apparently all I have is BS.


----------



## chadihman (Mar 16, 2014)

weedkilla said:


> I'm not so sure I get the point here, the limitations of a prototype dyno were disclosed, the numbers presented were never meant to be considered as anything other than numbers relative to each other. At no time was any inference made that the torque figures had been corrected, but they were relevant to each other. If 1 saw makes 5 bananas at 8000rpm and the other makes 4 bananas at 8000rpm it's still a valid result.
> As I read the thread, the limitations only presented themselves when trying to pull a 660 down to below what I would consider a working range anyway.


Sweet! I like bananas. Hopefully my saws make lots of them. Lol.


----------



## chadihman (Mar 16, 2014)

What's up with engineers? I had some others bust my balls before.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 16, 2014)

they think we are stupid Chad, because we have no degree. that said, I am glad he came back to explain himself some what. he could prove to be a valuable member here.
don't you feel bad about your dyno, you did very well at something few have tried.


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 16, 2014)

Do the readings change when the oil gets hotter and thinner?


----------



## CR888 (Mar 16, 2014)

Chad your dyno rocks! lf l could make one...l would! But l can't so l'll shut up now!


----------



## chadihman (Mar 16, 2014)

066blaster said:


> Do the readings change when the oil gets hotter and thinner?


No. The torque reading comes if the rotational torque of the pump twisting more or less. I can labor the pump variably at any psi oil pressure. When the oil gets hotter the pump turns easier so the needle valve is turned shut a fraction more so the load can remain the same. The oil temp is much more stable now with the oil cooler I have installed. I'm now working on a pwm solenoid with a potentiometer dial control. I plan on having a control panel with the rpm, torque, oil psi/ temp, and a rotary knob for adjusting the torque with a pwm solenoid adjusting the pressure. This way there will be no hyd hoses stiffening changing the torque or the need for your hand turning a valve so close to a very high rpm shaft and a pump with psi internally of sometimes up to 3000 psi.


----------



## chadihman (Mar 16, 2014)

This is the first of the dyno.

This just shows the rotation of the pump.


----------



## glock37 (Mar 16, 2014)

chadihman are you coming to the GTG may 3rd ?

id like to see your Dyno in person


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 16, 2014)

glock37 said:


> chadihman are you coming to the GTG may 3rd ?
> 
> id like to see your Dyno in person



Where is this GTG?


----------



## glock37 (Mar 16, 2014)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/pennsylvania-gtg-may-3rd-2014.250805/

Marysville Pa !

May 3rd


----------



## old-cat (Mar 16, 2014)

GO Chad!!!!!


----------



## old-cat (Mar 16, 2014)

chadihman said:


> What's up with engineers? I had some others bust my balls before.



They are envious. The school of OJT is sometimes superior to their PHD!


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 16, 2014)

Bachelors degree=bull s#! T Masters Degree. = more s#! T. PhD. = piled higher and deeper


----------



## chadihman (Mar 16, 2014)

glock37 said:


> chadihman are you coming to the GTG may 3rd ?
> 
> id like to see your Dyno in person


I'd sure like to be there. Work gets crazy that time of year but I'll do my best. 90% sure I'll be there.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Mar 16, 2014)

Coming next summer, to a wood pile near you,
C'Man and The GTG,DYNO-TOUR !!

Just say it in your best 3a.m. commercial radio announcers, tractor pull/wrestle mania promo voice.

I'm still rooting for the dyno project. Just that when you're doing spring yard cleanup
in exchange for a simple parts order, it's tough to even think of becoming a participant in the good stuff.


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Mar 16, 2014)

Any way you could make a thread where the first post in it is a compilation of all of your results, then edit it as time goes on?

Great stuff you're doing here!


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 16, 2014)

Rant warning:
I cuss design engineers almost every day at the shop. It wasn't always that way. Things used to be designed so you could access what you needed to for common maintenance. Less common stuff could have you pulling out your hair over access problems. Nowadays, you often have a hard time just seeing the oil filter, forget trying to reach it. Even worse, with some brake setups, you have to pull the spindle to get the rotor off!
The list of stupid designs gets longer every day. We need a law that requires engineers to actually use, or maintain, the stuff that they design for 2 years out of every 5.
Stuff that is designed by folks like Chad seems to have less plastic, better durability, and ease of use. Keep up the good work.
Rant complete.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 16, 2014)

rant liked


----------



## Trx250r180 (Mar 17, 2014)

MCW said:


> Well mate you are a rare new guy to actually apologise so kudos to you  I think the comment that rubbed a few people up the wrong way was your "BS" comment. That came across a bit blunt and harsh, particularly in your first post. Explaining why you think the OP's dyno results were wrong would have helped a lot.
> On another note I 100% agree with you about a stock 461 beating a stock 660. I hear a lot of guys saying that in small wood my "insert small saw here" will beat my "insert big saw here". The 461's are a very strong saw though, no doubt about it. A 17cc odd difference in capacity is a lot to cover though when no porting is involved.
> If these guys leant into both saws I'm sure they would have a different opinion. I did a video up a while ago with my two ported Dolmar 7900's, my ported 390XPG, and my bog stock Husky 3120 in 22" odd hardwood with the same bar and chain. The 3120 ran last and the RSC chain was starting to get visibly beaten up. All had the same size rims fitted. The 3120 absolutely flogged the other saws by a considerable margin.
> If small saws could indeed hand a larger saw their arse in smaller wood (all things being equal) then they wouldn't have capacity classes in chainsaw racing.
> ...




i have a 461 and a 660 ,both ported by the same builder ,the 461 revs a little higher so has more chain speed ,cutting a cookie may be a second faster in a 30 second cut ,lean hard on them ,the 660 will have more tourque due to the bigger bore ,my 440 hybrid weighs less than all of them and has comparable cut times but a little less tourque yet ,but with a square sharp chain it works well ,and it is lighter than the other 2 so guess which one i grab the most ,I also have an old model 066 with the flat top plastic ,that one is pretty different or special on it's own ,i can lean on that old saw more than any saw i have and it keeps going asking for more ,i run 32 inch bars on all my saws if matters for the comparisons


----------



## 066blaster (Mar 17, 2014)

My 461 is the first saw I have used where I need to use the de comp valve. It's got some major compression. It should really have a bigger handle on the rope. The handle likes to slip threw my fingers when starting.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 17, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> i have a 461 and a 660 ,both ported by the same builder ,the 461 revs a little higher so has more chain speed ,cutting a cookie may be a second faster in a 30 second cut ,lean hard on them ,the 660 will have more tourque due to the bigger bore ,my 440 hybrid weighs less than all of them and has comparable cut times but a little less tourque yet ,but with a square sharp chain it works well ,and it is lighter than the other 2 so guess which one i grab the most ,I also have an old model 066 with the flat top plastic ,that one is pretty different or special on it's own ,i can lean on that old saw more than any saw i have and it keeps going asking for more ,i run 32 inch bars on all my saws if matters for the comparisons


 hey didn't you just get an 064? or was it the early 066?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Mar 17, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> hey didn't you just get an 064? or was it the early 066?


 early 066


----------



## chadihman (Mar 17, 2014)

Hey Hill Billy... What made you dig back on this old thread anyway? I was also thinking you were going to explain how a dyno works. Spill the beans man!


----------



## chadihman (Mar 17, 2014)

I wish a few would go back and read the first post on this thread. I stated the 660 had more grunt the harder it was pulled down. The 461 had a very slight gain at 10,000 rpms but then lost the battle at lower rpms. Not bashing a 660 cause I know it has torque and it showed with a 36" bar in hardwood. I sold my 660 only because I have a good running 461 that runs a 36" bar well the very few times I need 36"


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Mar 17, 2014)

I remember you saying that Chad, I bet most of us do.


----------



## chadihman (Mar 17, 2014)

By the way guys I wanted to let you know it felt really good to have a bunch of great members here back me up. I was a couple days late. Thanks!!!!

As for Hill Billy he made me a bit angry but I'm over it and would love for him to come back here and share.


----------



## Grey (Apr 30, 2014)

Any of you consider there I room for "book learning" & for OTJ street smarts. They complement each other, not fight each other. A healthy balance of both is usually the key to success in the reAl world.


----------



## PES+ (May 1, 2014)

The 066 was a dog too but the 660 is worse.....just like the last 395s were pigs stock


----------



## PES+ (May 1, 2014)

But the hands down king of pig dogs stock is a Husky 3120


----------



## VinceGU05 (May 2, 2014)

MCW said:


> ***If anybody owns both a 461 and 660 please insert comparison video here...



guess i better find me some wood to cut and a camcorder


----------



## PES+ (May 2, 2014)

I will send a bone stock 7-10 mac when I get it running right do you see what a real chainsaw can cut versus those two anemic poser saws stock...you pick up the shipping...


----------



## PES+ (May 2, 2014)

Are you sure you want to play gateway games?


----------



## PES+ (May 2, 2014)

Not wise.......word.......


----------



## glock37 (May 2, 2014)

Chad you coming to the GTG may 3rd ? Marysville


----------



## chadihman (May 2, 2014)

glock37 said:


> Chad you coming to the GTG may 3rd ? Marysville


Have to work in am then my daughter's first softball game starts tomorrow.


----------



## wyk (May 2, 2014)

Hill billy said:


> Hey guys to those I upset with my last post I'm sorry maybe I should have went at it in a different angle .Let's step back a couple steps who am I some ask . Im just your average mild age man with a degree in mechanical engineering. I went to school at Massachusetts institute of technology in Cambridge ma. I work Virginia Beach , Virginia and yes I am a hill billy . With that being said I think its great what you are tryin to do with the dyno just found your numbers that had been posted to be a little off. I wish you would have followed up with the numbers after you figured out your dyno wasn't pulling the right ones.With that being said I think some had a few things to say about respect . I see this as a two way street Maybe we should show a little more respect to those who work so hard to bring use these fine saws. The 461 does run great from the start or to say stock. Does it run better then the ms 660? No!!!! Maybe we should set back a thank some people for putting that single port muffler on it witch is so easily to mod to bring this saw to life. Let's not forget guys I'm pretty sure this is done do to the EPA . To all the Saw builders out there you don't really need a dyno to know how your work is doing put a sharp chain on her and let the saw do the talking and keep up the great work. One last things guys would love to see all the positive and negative things on the 661 let use know. If you took the time to read all of this thank you And keep a Stihl in your hands.



BS. Even a mechanical engineer from MIT would have basic concepts of English grammar mastered. This mess you just wrote makes you look like a child. You should have just left it at your first ignorant post instead of rambling on and removing any doubt of the depth thereof.


----------



## chadihman (May 2, 2014)

I think Hill Billy is a make believe dude. I figure he is a jealous member just making a fuss. He hasn't responded to any of my messages or any other threads.


----------



## PES+ (May 2, 2014)

Not too blatent a Stihl plant now are we?

I can out you having actually attended MIT with three questions...

Do you have the nuts to answer?


----------



## PES+ (May 2, 2014)

God...so lame

the day Stihl hires an MIT ME I will be pope....ffs


----------



## Timberhauler (May 3, 2014)

We show it in our system at work but have none in stock. I was in the tree and timber business for most of my life. I had a mix of saws. I ran MS440's until they were gone along with the 460. The 440 was the finest saw ever built IMO. I had a few modified ones that I built myself that would hold their own with a 660 in most situations. I then switched to all 460's in 2008. I ran 200t's in the air and used husky 346xp's for cutting big tops and bigger wood from the saddle because stihl doesn't have a saw in that class that compares. For the really big stuff I used husky 395's over the 660 because if both are stock there is no comparison between the two. I used the MS880 over the 3120 because I thought it was the winner in that situation. I still do a good bit of side work and now I use a 372xp and for big wood I still use the 880. I love the 460, that saw made me a lot of money. I have bought and worn out 12 of them since 1999 and only one gave me problems which was just because the mechanic at my dealer adjusted the carburetor too lean when one of my guys took it there and they ran it dull all day. I just opt for the 372 now because it's over 200 bucks cheaper. I have a 460 that I'm gonna keep. I had bought 6 440's when I heard they were retiring them but they were stolen. I have run the 460 and 660 side by side for many years. The 660 only outshines when using a 28 inch or above guide bar. But when running it against a 460 that I have modified it isn't much of a comparison. The only thing on the 660's side is that it will run much longer before needing an overhaul...But then the 395 is a little heavier but it takes more abuse and runs way longer before needing a top end...I would replace the top end on all of my saws approximately every 40 hours of run time because they got ran hard every single day. The loss of power is so gradual that you don't notice it until the top end is replaced. On the 880,660 and 395 I replaced the bottom end during the 3rd top end job just because I have broken crankshafts on a 660 and a 395


----------



## PES+ (May 3, 2014)

The last 395s I did for guys had a squish clearence of I swear almost 3/8ths of an inch....the rest of the port numbers worked out great when you just dropped the whole cylinder and matched the flow....


must be some really low octane fuelmin some market somewhere....


----------



## PES+ (May 3, 2014)

Was weird having a 95 cc saw stall the chain with a 20 inch bar stock....blew me out


----------



## PES+ (May 3, 2014)

Oh and BTW for the vunce that opened one of mine and shot his mouth off that I didn't actuslly cut the ports so I ripped off the client....I did cut the ports but I make sure the oem dealers can never tell so that the client stll has his warrentee.


Idiit race builder wanna bes....


----------



## PES+ (May 3, 2014)

I still have you hacked up cylindrr with the broken base because you crowed to the client that he had to have a gasket and you machined the base...

I
And also have the golf piston you replaced his oem one with....I didn't rat you out on that....jackass


----------



## PES+ (May 3, 2014)

I found it ironic that you signed your work with the die grinder....perfect


----------



## PES+ (May 3, 2014)

Sorry...I won't clutter up this thread any further....he got the message....he is hiding...typical


----------



## mdavlee (May 3, 2014)

What in the world are you going on about?????


----------



## DexterDay (May 3, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> What in the world are you going on about?????



I'm scratching my head as well... ? ?


----------



## Dieselshawn (May 4, 2014)

Thanks to chadihman's help with pics, videos of his dyno in operation, and emailing to each other, I have my own saw dyno that was just built.

I used chad's link to a website to find me a certain sized pump to run on the machine.

The pump I chose is a 15 hp / 8.5 gpm / 3,850 psi pump that pulls down modded 660's and 390's down to clutch slipping speed.

Once chad finds a bigger pump, he will be good as my pump still works for saws as small as stock 026's.

I did a base run on my ms260 mastermind saw and adjusted the flywheel for more timing, the numbers do change a little. Every little bit in the right direction helps add up to better power or if we did something wrong.

The dyno really helps to take some guess work, how chains are filed and operator error in cutting wood out of the equation.

Also the dyno really helps save the logs for the fun part, cutting competitions! 

We went through a lot of wood tuning saws. 

No more now. We tune them on the machine, then go cutting. 

We ran a stock 660 against the masterminded 660.

The torque of the modded 660 is good and strong. The saw also ran cooler than the stock one on the machine.

Timed Cutting in a test log does show a difference.

Thanks chad!


----------



## Moparmyway (May 6, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> What in the world are you going on about?????


He is calling out someone - a vonce (as was once mentioned) that does not have the scruples to respond. I have my suspicions, but nothing concrete. This vonce stands accused of shoddy work and running his mouth trying to make someone else look bad ..................oh yeah, one more thing - the "jackass" also uses gulf pistons

Any guesses ?????


----------



## Virginialogging (Aug 8, 2014)

ok, I'm not a saw build but a saw user..started with Stihl 044s now after a boat load of 44s 440s, 460s through the the one 660 I bought 3 years ago, I bought a 461 yesterday. I've been felling with the 660 the last three years and running a 32" bar,
I slapped the 32 on the 461 and was greatly impressed. Not the same low end grunt I suppose but dayum she cuts good.

BTW, I've also had an 090. talk about lugging...me and the saw...


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

The MS461 greatly impresses me as well. You can install a MS460/046 coil and do away with the rev limiter. Advance the timing a few degrees, and add a dual port cover from a 046.........then it will have even more grunt.


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 8, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The MS461 greatly impresses me as well. You can install a MS460/046 coil and do away with the rev limiter. Advance the timing a few degrees, and add a dual port cover from a 046.........then it will have even more grunt.



Stop talking about the 461 before I add that to my "list" 

I wouldn't mind sending my 460 to Chad when that 461 of Keith's goes. I am curious the difference  Is the Strato the bee's knee's?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> Stop talking about the 461 before I add that to my "list"
> 
> I wouldn't mind sending my 460 to Chad when that 461 of Keith's goes. I am curious the difference  Is the Strato the bee's knee's?


Bananas!! MM362XB


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm thinking the M-Tronic is the bee's knees. 

That doesn't take away from the MS461 being a damn fine runner though.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

My buddy Ronnie checked with Stihl the other day. No intentions seen for 461 mtronics


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

No I didn't see that coming either. I'd bet the farm that they are working on a new 70cc model right now, and it will likely replace the 441 and the 461 when released.


----------



## Locust Cutter (Aug 8, 2014)

If my 9010 doesn't end up being what I was looking for, then a 395 will replace it. I really liked the 660 I had and it did well with a "36 bar (7-pin pulling full-comp 3/8 semi-chisel) stumping Hedge, Locust, Pin and Burr Oak. It did NOT have the same A/V, oiling ability or torque as a 395 (stock for stock) which is why IF I buy a 395 it will either be straight from Terry with the works, OR it will go to see the Monkey as it will be my stumping saw. Otherwise my 372 may not have the torque that a 461 does, but it'll haul the mail just fine and handles quite well, outside of the damn high-pitch air injection sound... I know it works but it's enough to drive you to drinking WITH hearing protection... 

Chad, I love what you're doing and am all for it!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> No I didn't see that coming either. I'd bet the farm that they are working on a new 70cc model right now, and it will likely replace the 441 and the 461 when released.


Are u holding out on us Randy???? Spill tha beans!!! lol


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

Oh no Keith.......just a guess.....


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 8, 2014)

462..............


----------



## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> 462..............


not according to.Stihl


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Aug 8, 2014)

i wish they would have made a 660 along the same lines as the 461......i really like that saw.


----------



## splitpost (Aug 9, 2014)

Injected 70cc...................

Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2


----------



## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

splitpost said:


> Injected 70cc...................
> 
> Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2


Id say more along the lines of mtronics or direct 76cc. For me that range makes alil more torque?Ive had the 441c and a 461 and that lil xtra grunt makes a difference?


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 9, 2014)

Would high pressure direct injected turbo diesel with lightweight engine materials work good? 

There's some turbo diesels in drag racing running 8,000 rpms, producing 1,700 hp with just 50 psi from a supercharger in only 7 liters.  

Saw likely won't even slow down at all in the cut


----------



## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

too much $$$$$$


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 9, 2014)

splitpost said:


> Injected 70cc...................
> 
> Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2


 My dream is to get a motor out of a 500i and drop it into a saw. [emoji16][emoji12]


----------



## splitpost (Aug 9, 2014)

VinceGU05 said:


> My dream is to get a motor out of a 500i and drop it into a saw. [emoji16][emoji12]


http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...e-dribble-thread.175005/page-906#post-4849501


----------



## Locust Cutter (Aug 9, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i wish they would have made a 660 along the same lines as the 461......i really like that saw.


I haven't had the opportunity to run a 461 yet, but if it's as good as y'all say it is, a bigger brother would be just the ticket. I guess the three biggest things I want in a saw along the lines of 90cc+ are torque, GOOD anti-vibe and enough oiling to replicate the Exxon Valdez oil spill. Reasonable weight and handling would be a plus. My 50cc-70cc saws are the ones I do all of the limbing and much of the bucking with. The big saws are trunk and stumping saws for me where I want torque similar to a Peterbuilt... 

Just my $0.02 as I am not a faller and have never confused myself with one. I just cut 15-25 cords/yr and like to have the right tool for the job and tools that will last a long time. A 350 Chevy or 351 Ford will get a lot of general work done in a pickup, but when you're latching onto 10K+ that's where the big-blocks come in (preferably compression ignition). The same applies to saws for me.


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

chadihman said:


> One of you fellas wanted this test so here are the #'s. At 10,000 rpms the 461 and the 660 were almost tied for hp. 461 had .05 hp advantage. At 9250 rpms the 660 had an small advantage of .14 hp. At 8840 rpms the 660 had an advantage of .744 hp. As you can see the 461 is a strong beast and held up well to the 660. I always thought the 660 was sluggish until it was wearing a big bar. That makes perfect sense here because the 660 gained as the load was increased. I wanted to pull the 660 lower but the dyno ran out of resistance to hold the torque back at a steady rpm. I'm going to put an 8 or 9 pin sprocket on the saws so I can load them harder. I'll get my larger sprockets and pull this 660 lower.
> I'm more giddy than my five year old at Christmas. Buckets of fun! My wife thinks I'm nuts but I overheard her telling a friend about the cool chainsaw testing machine I built. If ya gotta be nuts to have fun then I'm all for it


You don't need to dyno test them, just work with them everyday. I use them both daily and the 660 has loads more torque than the 461.


----------



## KG441c (May 8, 2015)

Geoff Shaw said:


> You don't need to dyno test them, just work with them everyday. I use them both daily and the 660 has loads more torque than the 461.


I could about guess you have never ran a ported 461?


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

KG441c said:


> I could about guess you have never ran a ported 461?


No i have only ever run stock saws


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

KG441c said:


> I could about guess you have never ran a ported 461?


What i'm really trying to find out is any news on the 661. My local Stihl dealer still has 2 660's on the shelf, once they are gone it is purely 661's and i want to know how they compare. You guys in the states have had the 661 for awhile and i want a comparison. In Oz they have only just been released.


----------



## KG441c (May 8, 2015)

661c if staying stock. A ported 461 will run with if not faster than a 660 in 25" and under wood


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

KG441c said:


> 661c if staying stock. A ported 461 will run with if not faster than a 660 in 25" and under wood


Well i guess i need to find someone that mods saws. Unfortunately i'm just a dumb arse tree lopper not a mechanic.


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

I spose a question i have to ask myself, if porting them makes them so much better, why don't they come out ported as stock.


----------



## Locust Cutter (May 8, 2015)

Emissions, warranty and end-operator skill (or lack thereof) issues all come to mind. Why won't Honda sell me a Moto GP bike? Largely because I'm not Valentino Rossi or Matt Mladdin.


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

Locust Cutter said:


> Emissions, warranty and end-operator skill (or lack thereof) issues all come to mind. Why won't Honda sell me a Moto GP bike? Largely because I'm not Valentino Rossi or Matt Mladdin.


Fair enough, I need to find someone to mod my saws


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 8, 2015)

Locust Cutter said:


> Emissions, warranty and end-operator skill (or lack thereof) issues all come to mind. Why won't Honda sell me a Moto GP bike? Largely because I'm not Valentino Rossi or Matt Mladdin.


I'm also interested in anyone else's view on the 661


----------



## Locust Cutter (May 8, 2015)

There are a few on this site with some real-world experience with them. I haven't had the opportunity unfortunately as I really liked my old 660. To paraphrase what I've heard is that that it seems to be a genuinely better equal/alternative to a 390xp, which is not to damn it with faint praise. If thats what your're looking for it might be the ticket. For 90cc+ sized saws, I want torque which is where the 395xp, NLA-Dolmar 9010 and 100+cc saws come in. I suppose outside of personal preference with regards to looks and handling, the larger question is with regards to your intended usage for the saw. If I were a timber faller, I'd lean towards this or a 390xp (or a MS461 or 372xp ported) and probably be fine. For my usage in stumping Hedge and Oak varieties, I went with a ported 9010 due to the torque and price-point although parts are already becoming a PITA for my 9010... 
I hope that helps some.


----------



## MustangMike (May 9, 2015)

I don't own one, but I did run a 661 briefly. They are awesome saws. The general feedback from those that own them are they are much stronger running, smoother and more fuel efficient than a 660. Hands down a better saw.

Go to the thread "Dyno tested Mastermind ported 660 vs stock vs dual port muffler" and you can see the difference that muff mods and porting make (in a graph).


----------



## _RJ_ (May 9, 2015)

The 461 is what fallers around here use. Of course the terrain is steep and undergrowth is crazy thick. So by the end of the day ounces will be felt..


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 9, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I don't own one, but I did run a 661 briefly. They are awesome saws. The general feedback from those that own them are they are much stronger running, smoother and more fuel efficient than a 660. Hands down a better saw.
> 
> Go to the thread "Dyno tested Mastermind ported 660 vs stock vs dual port muffler" and you can see the difference that muff mods and porting make (in a graph).


----------



## Geoff Shaw (May 9, 2015)

Thanks Mike


----------



## MustangMike (May 9, 2015)

No problem, an ton of info in this site if U know where to look!


----------



## RyeThomas (Jan 29, 2017)

Well I'm a big dyno guy and I can't argue the results, thanks OP for doing the test.

But I have a 660 and a 461. I will admit I haven't run them long but I do run them side by side. In my experience noodleing 24"L to 26" L wood ( what I buck most of my firewood to) my 660 with a 28" bar can take a heck of a lot more pressure when I dog it in without slowing than my 461 running a 25" and I mean a lot.
Both saws are 100% stock with carb limiters in place. I wonder why, maybe I got a strong 660 and a weak 461. It really is odd because I was thinking if the 461 was so good I would sell the 660, no chance from what I've experienced. I may sell my 362 and just run the 461 though it's a pretty awesome saw. Thus far I'm just not seeing what you have show to be true, at the same time I can't argue your numbers. 

Wonder what's up???


----------



## Full Chisel (Jan 29, 2017)

RyeThomas said:


> Well I'm a big dyno guy and I can't argue the results, thanks OP for doing the test.
> 
> But I have a 660 and a 461. I will admit I haven't run them long but I do run them side by side. In my experience noodleing 24"L to 26" L wood ( what I buck most of my firewood to) my 660 with a 28" bar can take a heck of a lot more pressure when I dog it in without slowing than my 461 running a 25" and I mean a lot.
> Both saws are 100% stock with carb limiters in place. I wonder why, maybe I got a strong 660 and a weak 461. It really is odd because I was thinking if the 461 was so good I would sell the 660, no chance from what I've experienced. I may sell my 362 and just run the 461 though it's a pretty awesome saw. Thus far I'm just not seeing what you have show to be true, at the same time I can't argue your numbers.
> ...



~15cc difference in displacement gives the nod to the 660 as load/bar length increases. The 461 is a screamer at higher RPMs but when the revs drop under load so does power while the 660 keeps on lugging.


----------



## grizz55chev (Jan 29, 2017)

Full Chisel said:


> ~15cc difference in displacement gives the nod to the 660 as load/bar length increases. The 461 is a screamer at higher RPMs but when the revs drop under load so does power while the 660 keeps on lugging.


No replacement for displacement, isn't that how it goes?


----------

