# Self belay prusik on SRT



## Bakes5 (Jun 9, 2006)

What is your opinion on using a self belay prusik when climbing SRT (Texas style. 2 CMI Ultrascenders. One to saddle. One to foot straps (The foot strap one also hooks into the saddle for safety)) It is also diagramed in the sherill recreational tree climbing catalog as system 2.

I think the redundant belay it is a good idea as well, but just wanted to find out what others think about using it since it will technically be a 3rd point of attachement below the waist.

Thanks

Bakes


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## woodchux (Jun 9, 2006)

I think it's a good idea to back up those mechanical ascenders.


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## sawn_penn (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm not a tree guy, but I have 20 years experience at SRT. Big walls, caves, industrial access, etc.

The texas rig is a joke. Equally hopeless in all situations.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 9, 2006)

I like how a small diameter rope attaches to a large diameter rope.


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## lync (Jun 11, 2006)

Two ascenders ,you have a back up, if you want to be even safer a vt on a beaner on top of the upper ascender. Have to dis agree with sean, at least for tree work texas system is un clutered and un complicated. A 70 or 80 ft vertical climb is probably the most you will have to deal with, and usually less.
Try staying tied in on srt, and throwing your tail over other limbs to get good work positioning. You don't always have to climb to your tie in point and set up a ddrt system. Do some work on the way up using your ropes tail as a second tie in. Now that prussic will come in handy since you can unclip your ascenders (once your tied in with the tail) clip the prussic to you saddle and you can slack the srt side of the system so you can move around the tree.

Corey


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## sawn_penn (Jun 11, 2006)

lync said:


> Two ascenders ,you have a back up, if you want to be even safer a vt on a beaner on top of the upper ascender. Have to dis agree with sean, at least for tree work texas system is un clutered and un complicated.



On the contrary I think that the texas rig is TOO CLUTERED and TOO COMPLICATED! Yes, there are much worse systems ("ropewalking" rigs) but there are simpler ones too.

As for backups, if you don't trust your ascenders, buy better ones. If you don't trust your rope, buy a better one.

SRT is all about simplicity. If you add complexity you probably aren't making yourself safer.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 12, 2006)

I have to stand with Sawn on this one. When I'm with my caving buddies, I use the systems they use, which is the Texas, the Mitchell and the Frog. I wouldn't consider using ANY of these in a tree, unless it was strictly recreational and for the purpose of ascent to a determined point with the intent of just coming back down.

Using two individual ascenders I always found more complicated than using one set of dual ascenders, which can be used for Ddrt, DbRT or SRT on 13 mm or 11 mm. These are secured (backed up) simply and instantly. The duals are unclipped once aloft and you swap to a friction system of your choice. Switchover only takes a matter of seconds while you're ihn a comfortable spot and fliplined in. Simplicity is of essence as the work aloft can bcome technical and the last thing you need is to be wrestling with the gear that's supposed to be helping you.

The Texas is a fabulous system for pure vertical ascents, especially with noob climbers as it is functionally sound. It's just grossly overcomplicated, timely to set up, slow compared to other options and not ideal to work off of. It's a pit caving system, not a tree system except, like I say, major vertical recreational ascents. If I were taking a beginner up a giant redwood, I would set them up in a Texas system.


As far as a self-belay prussik on SRT, I would consider that only in an emergency when no mechanical option is available, but not as a working system. To descend you almost have to use a footlock to add friction, as well as both hands, one on the rope and one on the prussik. You should be able to work off a belay system using one hand, or no hands, and keep everything else freed up. A prussik simply does not allow this.

SRT really does not lend itself well to friction hitch systems. To control friction on SRT with absolute control and precision, I've tried traditional hitches, advanced hitches and mechanical devices of all sorts. The friction hitch on SRT has been one problem that I have just not been able to solve. Any number of devices work marvelously well, even the simplest like an ATC or other tube-type devices. Occasionally, I enjoy a simple, fat aluminum ring, the same as those that come on a friction saver false crotch.

There's a lot of beauty in simplicity. The mechanical side of treecare is not that scary


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## Tree Machine (Jun 12, 2006)

Click here for a view of the frog and Texas setups, as well as marbar and a couple other vertical access systems.


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## Bakes5 (Jun 13, 2006)

As for backups, if you don't trust your ascenders, buy better ones. If you don't trust your rope, buy a better one.

--> I'm using CMI Ultrascenders and 11mm The Fly rope. Any reason I should not trust these? Anybody know of any issues of a serious incident attributed to this combination?


***BTW I climb for purely recreational purposes and use SRT for canopy access then switch over to DdRT

Thanks

Bakes


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## moss (Jun 13, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> The Texas is a fabulous system for pure vertical ascents, especially with noob climbers as it is functionally sound. It's just grossly overcomplicated, timely to set up, slow compared to other options and not ideal to work off of. It's a pit caving system, not a tree system except, like I say, major vertical recreational ascents. If I were taking a beginner up a giant redwood, I would set them up in a Texas system.



I'm curious to know what part of the Texas system (as shown on the Rescue Response link, also what New Tribe has, they don't call it anything, Sherrill calls it a New Tribe Frog) is grossly overcomplicated. It's so easy to put on the rope, self backing up and easy to climb, can be stowed away in a small bag when you switch to DdRT in the canopy. Maybe you're thinking of something else when you say "Texas system"?
-moss


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## Bakes5 (Jun 13, 2006)

I also agree. The Texas system is profoundly simple. I can hook in and be climbing in well under 30 seconds. I guess I could do secured footlock but I really don't want to.

LAter

Bakes


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## sawn_penn (Jun 13, 2006)

Bakes5 said:


> I also agree. The Texas system is profoundly simple. I can hook in and be climbing in well under 30 seconds. I guess I could do secured footlock but I really don't want to.
> 
> LAter
> 
> Bakes



Texas as in top of page 91 in http://www.caves.com/7ASCENT.pdf ?

A horrible, strenuous system.


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## Bakes5 (Jun 14, 2006)

As far as page 91 goes: I do not use a chest harness and I use a foot loop for each foot

You still have not convinced me this is a bad system.

Clip top ascender onto rope
Clip bottom ascender onto rope
Clip yourself into ascenders
Put feet into loops
slide top, sit, slide bottom, stand, slide top, sit, slide bottom, stand, ........

Minimal equipment, can learn in about 30 seconds, is not that strenuous if you are even the slightest bit in shape (I guess it might be a little strenuous if you are packing a few too many cheese burgers under your XXXXL saddle) and still easy enough to do change overs at any point.

I'm not saying I know much about the other styles, I can just say that the texas system, for me, is a quick and easy way to get up the tree. What other SRT style would you recommend for canopy access? 

Later

Bakes


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## woodchux (Jun 14, 2006)

I personally use this type system [no chest harness either] when I'm not spiking.
I find it pretty simple [albeit a bit goofy looking].
I am not a good footlocker so thats what i use.

.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 15, 2006)

Bakes5 said:


> You still have not convinced me this is a bad system.


Nor will I. It's a proven system and it works really well. I'm always glad to see more Arborists using SRT. There's certain advantages to it. 

Arborists have been climbing the DdRT/friction hitch system for well over a hundred years. Most still are. Nothing wrong with that, but it's really nice to see more and more guys diversifying and trying out new techniques.



Bakes5 said:


> I'm using CMI Ultrascenders and 11mm The Fly rope. Any reason I should not trust these? Anybody know of any issues of a serious incident attributed to this combination?


Watch the little thumb lever that controls the position of the cam. It is made of plastic and the pivot pin holding it is sorta, well, I can't say I've ever had a problem with that pin, but it seems rather insubstantial (just my feeling). The plastic thumb lever, however, I have brought this to the attention of CMI severel times over the last decade as I have had this part break on TWO of their ascenders. This is the weak link. The bigger problem than that plastic part breaking is that the ascenders are still functional without it. Some guys will climb on them in this compromised state and it's really dangerous if that cam is not kept captive. If it is allowed to fully open, the rope could escape the ascender shell. Just inspect every time you go up. The CMI's are otherwise a very good, very popular device. The fly is a really good, fun rope, closer to a dynamic rock climbing rope than pretty much anything else designed for the arborist community. I keep a dragonfly amongst the collection (the green one).


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## xtremetrees (Jun 15, 2006)

urrrr grrrr hacks hacks..lol


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## Tree Machine (Jun 15, 2006)

Exsqueeze me? Are you a Mr. 'DdRT til death do I part'?

These systems are getting men up into trees safely. Is your manhood challenged by all this, Xtreme? This


> urrrr grrrr hacks hacks


 is not nice.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 15, 2006)

Actually, come to think of it, I set Elizabeth's pit rig up with two single ascenders. Instead of two footloops I have her set up with a single footloop that accomodates both feet. In between the upper and lower ascender she has a web strap/bungee that pulls the lower ascender up kind of automatically when you weight then upper ascender and lift your feet.

I've got a picture of it somewhere...... Gimme a minute......


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## Tree Machine (Jun 15, 2006)

I'm going to have to pull it out of her caving bag and take a picture of it, but it's the same concept as Bakes and Chux, just a little different tweak on it. Gimme some time to do that.



We're sort of off topic, eh?


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## xtremetrees (Jun 15, 2006)

Nice pics.
Nice work.. 
It does a little and sorry was just kidding..


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## Tree Machine (Jun 16, 2006)

I know.

Daniel Murphy has produced another written article in the June TCIA. He made the cover again with an article on the finer points of SRT Click here for an 8.9 meg pdf download  of June '06's entire TCIA issue (84 pages) Daniel's article starts on page 10.

Daniel was real clear in showing how he backs up his ascender, right on the front page.


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## trevmcrev (Jun 16, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> I know.
> 
> Daniel Murphy has produced another written article in the June TCIA. He made the cover again with an article on the finer points of SRT Click here for an 8.9 meg pdf download  of June '06's entire TCIA issue (84 pages) Daniel's article starts on page 10.
> 
> Daniel was real clear in showing how he backs up his ascender, right on the front page.



Awesome, thanks TM. I only got my Feb issue yesterday, being on the othe side of the world 'n all.

Trev


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## Tree Machine (Jun 17, 2006)

Hey TreeCo, Are these the titanium, adjustable-handle ascenders? These cats have the schweet hardware. I personally haven't tried any of their stuff, but I drool. I have too many ascenders to warrant buying another ascender, even if it's cooler than all the others. All of these devices do exactly the same thing: one-way trip up a rope.


Note on that link, the Titanium rap ring. Great little SRT device there for a mere 5 bucks.


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## woodchux (Jun 17, 2006)

Thanks for the link TM .
I've gotta try that "Hogwauler" at the bottom of the page.
Looks very interesting.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 18, 2006)

Interesting, yes. Note, though, that it maxes out with a 12 mm rope.

A Petzl Pro Traxion will do the same thing (one-way camming pulley) for around half the price, and surprisingly it is lighter by 15 grams. It'll take a full 13mm also.

I've had a couple Pro Traxions over the years and can speak that it is an excellent piece.

I wouldn't steer ya wrong, WoodChux.


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## woodchux (Jun 18, 2006)

On that Mark Bridge system that Dan posted a pic of. What would be the purpose of the Alpine butterfly? To tie off for work positioning?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 18, 2006)

If the Kleimheist were to slip down, the butterfly would be the stopper knot. 

Not sure how that interesting setup made it into an SRT thread. To me, it shows how to make an already slow 2:1 DdRT system even more complicated. I try to see how the access line can be set and retrieved from the ground and I don't get it. If you have to climb to the tie-in point to set the bugger, why not just set a rated sling and a pulley and go off that?

Regardless, we try out experimental systems because we might find them advantageous to work from, or that system may lead to something even more unique and beneficial.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 18, 2006)

Oops, Dan beat me to the reply.


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## woodchux (Jun 18, 2006)

Does the kleimheist bind down bad on srt like the other hitches do ?

What is the best (non binding) hitch to use on srt?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 19, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Does the kleimheist bind down bad on srt like the other hitches do ?


Yes, it does and in this case is supposed to. If the hitch slipped, the 1:1 pull of the Kleimheist on the access line would stop as soon as it travelled to a point where the butterfly leg would support up to 1/2 the weight. The Kleimheist would travel no further.

It might be noted that the webbing sling should be of the 1/2" width (125 mm). This sets and binds better than 1" (2.54 cm) webbing.




> What is the best (non binding) hitch to use on srt?


SRT is a 1:1 system. Managing friction in a 100% absolute and controlled manner with a tiny input of effort, repeatedly, consistently and without fail every single time, regardless of rope type or weather conditions, regardless of climber weight or saddle type, "THE" friction hitch has not been shown to even exist.


There are hitches that will work, probably your best bet would be Rocky J. Squirrell's self-tending setup, the Valdetoin Tresse (VT). It takes minimal tuning as the legs are short and the whole rig compact. It takes a tress cord of a specific length, with dual eyes and you'll need a micropulley. Here's that.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 19, 2006)

I wonder if two prussiks would work, a long one above and a short one below the other, each sharing a share of the load and each requiring 1/2 of the binding clench.


I would have to think that's been tried, although mebbe not. I would use two tress cords, one longer than the other. Even up all 4 eyes and run a single biner through them. Who knows? It might work and amazingly we could consider this to be on-topic.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 19, 2006)

Then we could try a pair of 4:1 distels, a 4:1 over a 3:1, VT over a Kleimheist, Blake's over a 3-wrap Prussik, Distel on VT .... the possibilities are staggering. I would still want the system to manage friction in a 100% absolute and controlled manner with a tiny input of effort, repeatedly, consistently and without fail every single time, regardless of rope type or weather conditions, regardless of climber weight or saddle type, and at least another half a dozen 'musts'.

Or just do like the rest of the vertical access world (outside the tree care industry anyway) does: use a device.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 19, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> On the way going up on srt you can move right into Dbrt and do a little work and then right back into srt for the rest of the way up.
> 
> Plus you don't need to go all the way to the top to start working Dbrt.


Does this mean you access the canopy from your access line and switch over to the climbing line? To be SRT you would have to be on *one* of the two parallel, vertical strands of the access line and I can't see why you wouldn't just go up both (DbRT). Switching between DbRT and DdRT or between SRT and DdRT would seem to require swiching ropes. Or am I missing something? Would you have both systems rigged to your saddle, climbing one and tending slack on the other?


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## sawn_penn (Jun 19, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Take a look at this srt/Dbrt system. Photo from Dave Spencer.



Does anyone actually use ascenders with "cool" handles like this?

I can't imagine that they would work well. Even the regular handled ascenders aren't great. Unless you are wearing heavy gloves (eg, mountaineering) most users end up holding the top of an ascender anyway. If you don't use the handle, then probably a petzl basic is all you need for a top ascender.


(Although petzl ascenders are my choice for personal ascenders, I acknowledge that they are not the best at handling shock and rescue loads. They are the best on icy/muddy ropes though!)


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## coydog (Jun 19, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> I wonder if two prussiks would work, a long one above and a short one below the other, each sharing a share of the load and each requiring 1/2 of the binding clench.
> 
> 
> I would have to think that's been tried, although mebbe not. I would use two tress cords, one longer than the other. Even up all 4 eyes and run a single biner through them. Who knows? It might work and amazingly we could consider this to be on-topic.


The trick would be to keep the hitches from either acting one at a time and compounding the friction problem or the top hitch causing the bottom hitch to let go completely when it runs into it and negating the friction completely.


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## woodchux (Jun 19, 2006)

Is the butterfly knot tied only on one leg of the access line?

[sorry for all the stupid questions guys]


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## woodchux (Jun 19, 2006)

Seems like that system would work on DbRT or SRT


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## woodchux (Jun 19, 2006)

What do you guys think of combining those two systems into 1 ?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 20, 2006)

Nice, Mr. Chux.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 20, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> it's really nice to see more and more guys diversifying and trying out new techniques.


Well, there we have it.... digital, virtual climbing gear techniques.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 22, 2006)

The Vertical Pro adjustable handle ascenders have not made it out of prototype stage. Dave and Loren are friends of mine so they've shown me the samples. That is a very clever idea but it takes a pile of money to bring clever ideas to market,

Cavers pretty much had the SRT systems dialed in during the '60s. Bits and pieces of gear have changed but the principles haven't. I remember reading the first edition of On Rope in about 1985 or so. That is when I started on my quest to find an ascent/descent system for arbos. both exist independently but combining the two is problematic. 

Using two hitches is likely not going to work. Prove me wrong though...I hate being a wet blanket. The problems have been addressed in this thread already. 

The UniCender is as close as we have right now. Some kind of combination of a hitch and hardware has promise too. 

The more monkeys that are trapped in the room, banging on a keyboard, the sooner we're likely to see the perfect SRT system.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 4, 2006)

Monkeys banging on a keyboard..... You crack me up, Tommy  

The perfect SRT system. If we're to be real specific it would be _the perfect SRT system for Arborists_. Climbing in other aerial disciplines may have similarities to climbing trees, but we have specific issues unique to us that make the 'perfect SRT system' distinct from what the perfect system would be in rock climbing, alpine, towers, trusses, aerial steelwork, stage work, bridge work and on and on.


Some of these professions are less about climbing and more about work positioning and being secure. Tree work is _climbing_, not like climbing the 1,940 steps to the top of a tower type of climb. That's not really _climbing_; that's going up a long frickin ladder. Even search and rescue, not much climbing. Vertical Cavers, the climbing they do is ascending rope and hiking rocky, and varying terrain. Self-belaying is the one thing we do have in common and tree climbers, with our friction hitches, do it entirely different than any other discipline

Ours is both climbing a tree, as well as acscending a rope. Ascending a rope is an entirely different world than climbing a tree. A good tree climber does both of these fluidly, simultaneously and safely.

Being able to vascillate between being on rope and being on tree, managing your rope and all the gear you are using and managing the finer nuances of friction vs gravity, these are the basic fundamentals of a climbing arborist.


I thing the perfect SRT system, _for tree climbers_ would be a multi-system that allowed you to use SRT, DbRT and DdRT as well as DRT using one, or a combination of the three. Now _THAT_ is an exciting proposition. And I promise you, it is being done, just not with friction hitches.


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