# new climbing knots?



## M.P (Aug 31, 2006)

hello all,at the moment i use a blacks hitch i thing it works well but I'm always looking to improve my climbing ,what i the best knot for use when up in the canopy e.g limb dropping,droping throw a crutch and back up throw it ect.i have a distel on my flip-line and my land-yard whitha pulley for pne hand use but cant work out how you apply in to the main line?? thanks mat


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 31, 2006)

same way you tied the distal on your lanyard. 

Try switching them both to the Schwabisch prussic


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Aug 31, 2006)

I use a blakes to get into the tree but once there i love the VT for movement within the tree. Add a micro pully with it and it makes for the best limb walks ever. I'd use it on the way up if i could get the hang of caputring a few body thrusts rather than one and the odd angle the rope leaves the karabiner with the pully on it.


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## lync (Aug 31, 2006)

Try this, it works for me. Thanks to murphy.
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=896&d=1018595752 Corey


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## MrRecurve (Aug 31, 2006)

Brushcutter, just get a belay on your vt for the ascent, works a treat.


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## arboralliance (Sep 2, 2006)

*Sweet...*



lync said:


> Try this, it works for me. Thanks to murphy.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=896&d=1018595752 Corey



I like that very much... For a whole heap of reasons...


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## moss (Sep 2, 2006)

lync said:


> Try this, it works for me. Thanks to murphy.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=896&d=1018595752 Corey



Aha! total revelation, so simple yet so effective. I like my Knut for going out on a branch and for rappeling but hate it when I'm trying to get off the ground.
-moss


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## M.P (Sep 2, 2006)

*new knots*

thats the thing you just want ONE knot to do all jobs,up on a blakes,branch walk on a blakes,down on a blakes or if it a long way donw figer8.matt


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## (WLL) (Dec 21, 2006)

*this is the best 4 me so far*

martin hitch it works better than the distel by not binding so tight after being loaded


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## JTinaTree (Dec 21, 2006)

I use the blakes as well thats the one of my favorites. I will switch over to the VT will climbing around in the canopy good high perf hitch very easy to control...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 22, 2006)

Some Friction Hitches

i like the self tending capabilities of the last 5; and use the very last hitch shown. These are all closed/basket hitches; that both ends connect to saddle; from a split-tail/cord for friction hitch.

Descending/Ascending in tree climber's DdRT, ascending only/ not descending in mountain climber / rescue's SRT.


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## (WLL) (Dec 22, 2006)

*main line*



M.P said:


> hello all,at the moment i use a blacks hitch i thing it works well but I'm always looking to improve my climbing ,what i the best knot for use when up in the canopy e.g limb dropping,droping throw a crutch and back up throw it ect.i have a distel on my flip-line and my land-yard whitha pulley for pne hand use but cant work out how you apply in to the main line?? thanks mat


try this with a distel or i now use the martin as shown but both very simmilar


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## Recon Freak (Jan 16, 2007)

*Thread is old but,*



lync said:


> Try this, it works for me. Thanks to murphy.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=896&d=1018595752 Corey



Lync,

I got to try out your setup for bodythrusting with the VT, and it worked flawlessly! My boss climbs on the Distel and he asked me to show this setup to him. He's very impressed also. Thanks man!!!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 17, 2007)

I have a question. This is a keen setup, within the friction hitch arena. The question is, does the climber grab the rope, pulling down with both hands while the left side/midline/caribiner pulls on the pulley/hitch as the standing end of the rope passes downward and through OR does the climber reach up with his right to push up and advance the hitch. 


The way it is set up, it _looks_ like it is the job of the caribinered side to control the 'advancing', but I want to be sure so I can duplicate what you guys are doing.


I don't use hitches, or 2:1 systems for ascent (or even descent for that matter), but I do make it a point to at least go out and try them out so I can have first-hand knowledge, if nothing else, from the standpoint of mechanics, motion vs. gain, all that.


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## moss (Jan 17, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> I have a question. This is a keen setup, within the friction hitch arena. The question is, does the climber grab the rope, pulling down with both hands while the left side/midline/caribiner pulls on the pulley/hitch as the standing end of the rope passes downward and through OR does the climber reach up with his right to push up and advance the hitch.



Pull with both hands, it is self advancing. There is slop in the system equalling the distance between the top and bottom reach of the carabiner/split tail per pull. Nothing is perfect but it's a good solution overall.
-moss


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## Tree Machine (Jan 17, 2007)

moss said:


> Pull with both hands, it is self advancing. There is slop in the system equalling the distance between the top and bottom reach of the carabiner/split tail per pull. Nothing is perfect but it's a good solution overall.
> -moss


If you don't mind me asking, a good solution overall to what?


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## moss (Jan 17, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> If you don't mind me asking, a good solution overall to what?





It solves the problem of how to do traditional body-thrust climbing on a DdRT system configured with a closed hitch. Usually the hitch is close to the harness and the climber has to pull down on the rope above above the hitch to ascend. This causes excessive slack which has to be manually pulled through the hitch during ascent. Attaching the closed hitch up high simulates climbing on a Blake's with an open split tail. Once the climber is in the tree they can move the biner back down to attachment on their harness and take advantage of all the favorable qualitites of the closed hitch for getting around the crown of the tree.
-moss


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## OTG BOSTON (Jan 17, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> If you don't mind me asking, a good solution overall to what?



To body thrusting the old fashioned way. OOPs you beat me to it AJ.

TM what exactly do you use for hardwear on your SRT? I'm planning on starting a thread about the different SRT set ups as soon as I remember to take a picture of mine.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 18, 2007)

I tried footlocking up this system yesterday. It's not footlock friendly, in any way. I honestly thought body thrusting was a thing of the past. I'll give it a body thrust attempt today, just to have that direct experience.



OTG BOSTON said:


> TM what exactly do you use for hardwear on your SRT? I'm planning on starting a thread about the different SRT set ups as soon as I remember to take a picture of mine.


 Prototype stuff, for the most part, so I won't be able to share it for fear of someone trying some variation. The hardware I use has to offer the versatility of going DdRT, like you guys, DbRT (static-stationary doubled line)which is me 80% of the time and SRT, me the other 20%. To demystify further, ascenders are always used on the trip up.


Boston, why don't you reopen one of the old SRT threads and we can work off that foundation, rather than building an entirely new one. Very little has changed with regards to non-hardware based SRT. If you have a piece of hardware that can go on doubled static, doubled moving or single line, reopen that thread, too; that was just a few months ago. I could share design mods I'm offering to Black Diamand and Kong, but I honestly don't think anyone here gives a hoot. 

2:1 DdRT, no matter how much slop in the system, no matter how difficult it makes it to go up, still reigns king. I've seen a moderate shift toward ascender use in the last few years, but the friction hitch family has been offered to Arbordom, personally, from the hand of God. It just doesn't matter if there are faster, easier methods. I've beaten this drum for years; no one cares.


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## moss (Jan 18, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> I tried footlocking up this system yesterday. It's not footlock friendly, in any way.



It seems like it should work just as well as any other DdRT system for footlocking the tail. Is that what you were trying to do?



Tree Machine said:


> I honestly thought body thrusting was a thing of the past.



I often body thrust for short distances to get around limbs instead of banging into them while footlocking. Using your legs on the tree or branches equals body thrusting when you're ascending DdRT right? Otherwise it's footlock the tail (DdRT) as much as possible.
-moss


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## Tree Machine (Jan 18, 2007)

moss said:


> It seems like it should work just as well as any other DdRT system for footlocking the tail. Is that what you were trying to do?


Yep, ascend the rope. I have to compare it to the 1:1 ropework I use. Between the having to take two strides up and only gaining 1 stride of altitude, and the 'slop' in the system, AND the (very small) minor amount of creep, or roll in the friction hitch, all added together _caused me to weep_ in considering how much more work and parts and motion you guys employ while thinking it's some sort of solution.





moss said:


> I often body thrust for short distances to get around limbs instead of banging into them while footlocking.


The ascender version of this would be to invert just before the ascender will hit the limb, cast your legs up over, like when you were a kid hangin on the monkey bars, and 'body bounce' even centimeters at a time if called for. In a 1:1 system, with zero-friction ascenders that advance and positively lock down and never, ever creep backwards, you have the confidence and especially, the technical ability. There is no 'slop' in the system, there is no 'tending' or 'tuning' or slack or slop or play. Advance the ascender 20 cm and you gain 20 cm altitude, not 10. Doubled rope or single rope, it plays out almost identically.


moss said:


> Using your legs on the tree or branches equals body thrusting when you're ascending DdRT right?


No comparing apples to oranges. Climbing the tree is a different world than ascending and descending a rope. Climbing around the tree really amounts to keeping a little tension on you all the. You're not really on rope, you're on tree. It's more about you and Mr Flipline. The lifeline is there as support and confidence maker, awaiting you go back into ascent/descent mode. 

I get it, moss, that you were specifically referring to that intermingled world where rope work and tree climbing cross over and dance as one.

In descent of the rope (rappel (abseil) and belay, the technical aspect really comes into play as you entire existence focuses around a piece of 3/8 or 5/16 diameter cord that wears over time.

For me it's really the same as you, except I connect directly to the rope througth a 50 kN steel biner and a simple piece of aluminum to keep theat rope in exactly the place you would want it. That, and I'm up and down 1:1

Other than those couple of differences, we're doing the exact same job.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jan 18, 2007)

*Thanks*



Tree Machine said:


> I tried footlocking up this system yesterday. It's not footlock friendly, in any way. I honestly thought body thrusting was a thing of the past. I'll give it a body thrust attempt today, just to have that direct experience.
> 
> Prototype stuff, for the most part, so I won't be able to share it for fear of someone trying some variation. The hardware I use has to offer the versatility of going DdRT, like you guys, DbRT (static-stationary doubled line)which is me 80% of the time and SRT, me the other 20%. To demystify further, ascenders are always used on the trip up.
> 
> ...




I know it seems like you are single handedly carrying this torch.........

I have reviewed all of the SRT threads, there are some great pics from you on them. I also noticed that there is a lot of confusion and patient explaining from you.

It seems like there are infinate ways of setting this system up, and I am thinking it would be cool to see the different ways AS members go about this. It would also help eliminate some of the confusion.

I noticed you are pretty consistant about keeping the exact hardwear you use close to the vest. 

As always, you have been very helpful, thanks.


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## moss (Jan 18, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> Yep, ascend the rope. I have to compare it to the 1:1 ropework I use. Between the having to take two strides up and only gaining 1 stride of altitude, and the 'slop' in the system, AND the (very small) minor amount of creep, or roll in the friction hitch, all added together _caused me to weep_ in considering how much more work and parts and motion you guys employ while thinking it's some sort of solution.



Weep not! For the purposes of ascending DdRT with an "advanced" or closed hitch the solution shown in the photo is a good one. It doesn't compare to 1:1 systems and isn't meant to. It just makes life easier for closed hitch DdRT climbers in certain situations. I don't think anyone would argue against using 1:1 (over 2:1) for ascent from point A on the ground to point B high in the tree.
-moss


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## woodchux (Jan 18, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> I could share design mods I'm offering to Black Diamand and Kong, but I honestly don't think anyone here gives a hoot.



I'm intrested.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 18, 2007)

SRT = distance x effort =DdRT = distance x 2 x effort/2 + friction of redirect. Best choice is SRT, unless that is not in your efficient power band; then DdRT to be in that efficient powerband; but at a cost. Exactly the same as anything else!

i like TM's idea of getting over the lip; adding throw legs over; throw them down hard on the other side and flow with the movement. Don't throw them down and then move, do it all at once. Don't let bod be loose, this wastes the leg throw, stay stiff. This is like gymnastics, waste nothing; compound motions by placing them together.

Also, in gymnastics we roll head shoulders forward hard to flip. Hip is pivot, head/shoulders farthest from pivot. The inertia will help carry you, stay stiff and move with it; not after it. Also, as you pivot over you have this inertia, but you are physically moving these body portions forward. This is how we'd rotate around the high bar doing giants. Inertia would carry you almost over, then you'd place head shoulders over to the other side to help it. Just like in a flip; if moving backwards; look at toes, chin to chest; moving forward look away from bod, chin away from chest. Get inertia of that, body placemeant of weight and throw rest of body with it at same time; all these things matter in the efficiency. Work this timing; preserve energy for other things.

Next; think of pivot point on branch; change it to your favor as soon as possible. You can leverage from either end of pivot, but NOTHING is such a change; as a pivotal change. A pivotal change is a 2:1 change; in 1 move you can increase loading on your side; while decreasing loading on the opposing side! You can take a 100# on help side and move it 5' out, or move 100' on load side in 5' to adjust ratio on of effort to loading on lever; but might only have to move pivot 1.5' (depending on situation; but always less than other adjust-meants). Even the language 
from olde reflects this understanding with the expression of "a pivotal change"; from times when people exerted there own force more, and understood these things more innately. 

The education here about climbing, motion, life etc. is more intense like that for us. In these things we don't read about forces to know them, we don't just watch their flows thru devices or direct with hydraulics; but develop a body knowledge from being the device they flow thru and the brain that adjusts them. There is nothing like that education! It is best not to turn away or blur by these things, but admit to, lend to and embrace them.

i guess the sig says it all.....


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## lync (Jan 19, 2007)

*Make a system that works for you*

There is no mystery, srt lets you cover more ground allowing you to use those big leg muscles to push your way up the tree. Draw back is ascenders are a one way tool (until someone invents a safe proven one that will let you decend also). doubled rope technique with friction hitch allows for up or down use, but with only 1/2 the progress, and short of foot locking the tail your arms and back even lifting half your weight won't last as long as your legs. Yoda might say find a way to climb trees without killing my self , I must!!
Use both methods! ascend tree srt, use tail of rope doubled rope tech. with hitch of choice to limb walk . Double crotched in allowing tail to pull you out to limb tip. Srt side still attached to high tie in allows pendulam effect and supports the bulk of you weight. Work and return to main trunk. srt to next scaffold, repeat.
Get to the top untie srt anchor doubled rope decend to scaffold branch, tail in there to double crotch if needed work the back of the tree on the way down. Corey


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## lync (Jan 19, 2007)

*additional*

continued:

While decending back side, if the need arises to ascend simply use one ascender with foot stirrup to grasp falling tail of rope, step and progress sliding hitch up. Its not 1:1 srt but for a short pitch it beats body thrusting.
I avoid body thrusting at all costs, its not an efficent means of fighting gravity. 
Corey


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 19, 2007)

i go with that; will SRT to my Running DBY, then switch over.

If TIP is farther than i need t go; tail of DBY is long to lanyard in at destination, and pull tail down to me and switch. If going to stay 10' below TIP, then place rab in end of rigging line, onto DBY for SRT as retrieval device for switch over to work/ have rigging line without bringing it up with you, then descend.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 20, 2007)

lync said:


> There is no mystery, srt lets you cover more ground allowing you to use those big leg muscles to push your way up the tree.



I often see this, it's sort of a 2:1 DdRT vs 1:1 SRT view of things.


My preferred system is the third one where the rope is up and over the TIP, both ends of the rope are on the ground. Using dual, handled ascenders, you ascend 1:1 up the rope, same as and SRT 1:1, but you're on a doubled line, allowing you to use those big leg muscles to push your way up the tree. I don't think there's a faster, easier way to get up a rope than footlocking 1:1 up a doubled line. That's why I use it; no anchoring the rope, just apply the ascenders, the captive bar and go.

Applying friction, once up there, to the doubled, static, stationary line and then working the line while the rope's ends stay down on the ground, I'm finding, is the rarest of the three climbing methods. I use it because it offers the most in swiftness, security and versatility.

2:1 DdRT offers security, but at a price.

SRT offers swiftness, but it's hardware based and it's only swift of you are truly comfortable on a single line and are secure and certain in the control of the friction- not currently possible using friction hitches, which takes the familiarity out of the equation, thereby squashing the necessary feeling of security.
In SRT friction is 100% controlled right in front of you, so a piece of hardware is essential and in our Arbo world, manufacturers don't make much friction control hardware for 13 mm arbo rope. I'm sure many would be freaky in simply delving into the thinner, 11 mm single line when all their experience is on fatter dual line. I see the barriers to entry in the SRT world, but that's where methods often stop; approaching SRT, not finding it comfortable and secure, going back and trying to finesse the 2:1 DdRT system.

But the essentially unknown third bastard child of the Ropework Family, the one that's figured out how to use all the advantages of it's DdRT and SRT brothers, co-mingled on demand, and then taken beyond with _extended_ versatility, techniques and facets of ropework not possible on either DdRT or SRT used alone. 

My instinct is that the 1:1 dual rope should be a stepping stone to SRT, but it's not. It's DdRT, then a rather large step across a rather wide expanse to get to SRT. Hence, very few Arborists climb SRT. The in-between method just seems to be invisible. There has only been _one thread_ in the 4 years that I've been here at arboristsite approaching this mystery method. 




OTG said:


> I know it seems like you are single handedly carrying this torch.........


Feeling more and more alone as time goes on, mystified in that, somewhat.

If I didn't think this would be beneficial to others, I would keep my mouth shut and not spend valuable daylight hours sharing it with you. And it's somewhat misplaced. I will step aside now as this thread is about CLIMBING KNOTS, and I'm derailing it.

Please accept my apology on that. You may now return to your regularly scheduled program, currently in progress.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 20, 2007)

Hair splitting point Tom lent me is that sitting static in DdRT is 1:1; your bod pulls down on 2 legs of line while support pulls up on 2 lines; 2:2 = 1:1.

But, in motion; DdRT is a 2:1. You adjsut 1 leg of line that pulls up on you 2x; so 2:1. SRT on single or double line(DRT) should always have at least 1 redundant; life saving connection at waist or above. Mostly that is a friction hitch over cam; friction hitch is more reliable straight and angled wise and is preferred over top of cam(s); so failing cam wouldn't knock it out. Just as Tom wrote about in his article when he first introduced it to our profession.

The friction hitches in SRT/DRT are for ascending only. 

In my theories/ imageries: To descend the hitch must be loosened up/ weight off. In DdRT; when we slide hitch, we automatically shift our weight over to the static leg of line terminating at saddle(i've measured with scales on each leg to prove). It magically, automatically takes the load(static leg); just as if 1 leg of line is failing/stretching the other line on a load takes the load. Then the hitch slides. SRT/DRT has no separate , independent leg of line to take the load temporarily to allow slide. This is also why we can go to small redirect point in friction saver/ reapportioner systems in DdRT. Because a lot of the force jumps across to the air to the static leg, not cranking through the tight bight of the FS devices. Thus you can lower self on it; but shouldn't lower someone else on it or a load either; for with one leg on load and one as separate/ remote control, the force then must crank thru the tight bight at the redirect. Totally different mechainc by this s-light change.


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## lync (Jan 20, 2007)

*cont'*

Doubled handles on a double rope have there own 2:1 system built right in, allowing you to pull down on one leg pulls you up 2:1 as one cam slips on the falling end and one cam holds fast on the other. 
Comfort comes from use and familiarity.For our purposes a single rope srt has advantages due to the the doubled ropes difficulty of setting up a redundant system. A single rope with 2 cammed ascenders (hand and foot stirrup) both connected to the saddle,create a backup. A vt with a beaner above either one allows for additional backup with little or no additional friction. And the vt on a single line will allow you to decend(although with some difficulty) a short distance. 
Petzl I'd made for 1/2 arborist rope works well and only takes a minute to switch back and forth from ascender to decender. Minor adjustments can be made while in the I'd decending mode by using a RADS system, just a non locking beaner in the handled ascender above the I'd allows fro a quick switch to 2:1 body thrust(i hate that word) . My top ascender has a small non locking beaner for just such an occasion that doubles as a storage point to get straps out of the way when not needed.
You can master any technique with commitment. Corey


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## moray (Jan 20, 2007)

*Imbalanced Load?*



TheTreeSpyder said:


> In my theories/ imageries: To descend the hitch must be loosened up/ weight off. In DdRT; when we slide hitch, we automatically shift our weight over to the static leg of line terminating at saddle(i've measured with scales on each leg to prove). It magically, automatically takes the load(static leg); just as if 1 leg of line is failing/stretching the other line on a load takes the load. Then the hitch slides.



This also may be hair splitting, TS: I disagree that we shift our weight over to the static leg of the line. When we slide the hitch, we DO remove some of the load from the split tail, while our arm/shoulder takes up that precise amount of the load. The static side of the line does not know the difference. Likewise, the moving side of the line, above the knot, also does not know the difference.

I am speaking of the situation when we are in steady descent. It is only in the very brief moment when we switch from stationary to moving that there is any imbalance in the two legs of the line. But perhaps this is what you meant?


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## RhodyFresh (Jan 20, 2007)

*best combo?*

what do you all think is the best eye & eye prussik chord to use a distel on samson velocity? Right now I'm using this new bee-line stuff and the softness of it seems to make the distel really tight and annoying after a while.


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