# Filling up large holes in base of ash?



## DeanBrown3D (Feb 13, 2006)

Hello all, I have a couple of decent size ash trees in my yard that have a large hole in the bottom of the trunk. I cannot see ants or other infestation. My neighbor says to throw a handfull of borax in there and then fill up the hole with cement.

Apart from the holes the trees appear to be quite healthy. I'd appreciate any tips or opinions on this technique.

Thanks

Dean


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 13, 2006)

Borax...yes...can't hurt

Cement...no!!!...can hurt the tree, chainsaws and stump grinders


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## fpyontek (Feb 13, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> Hello all, I have a couple of decent size ash trees in my yard that have a large hole in the bottom of the trunk. I cannot see ants or other infestation. My neighbor says to throw a handfull of borax in there and then fill up the hole with cement.
> 
> Apart from the holes the trees appear to be quite healthy. I'd appreciate any tips or opinions on this technique.
> 
> ...



Your neighbor is right about the borax or boric acid. I feel filling the cavity is with cement is not good for two reasons. Unless its done correctly, you are not adding any structural support to the tree. Secondly you are hiding the extent of the damage and subsequent re-infestation.
Clean out the loose and damaged wood as is reasonably possible, then treat the area with your insecticide of choice. I then paint the cavity to help keep moisture away from the exposed wood.
You will need to treat the cavity periodically for control of carpenter ants outdoors. Unlike indoor conditions, rain, humidity and other outdoor conditions will lessen the effectiveness of your treatment rapidly.
You should also get an opinion, from someone you trust,. as to whether or not the structural integrity of the tree has been compromised.

Fred


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## treeseer (Feb 13, 2006)

I agree with fred but not sure on the paint. Stick in a yardstick to measure the cavity. take a picture and post here with more info.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 13, 2006)

fpyontek said:


> Your neighbor is right about the borax or boric acid. I feel filling the cavity is with cement is not good for two reasons. Unless its done correctly, you are not adding any structural support to the tree. Secondly you are hiding the extent of the damage and subsequent re-infestation.
> Clean out the loose and damaged wood as is reasonably possible, then treat the area with your insecticide of choice. I then paint the cavity to help keep moisture away from the exposed wood.
> You will need to treat the cavity periodically for control of carpenter ants outdoors. Unlike indoor conditions, rain, humidity and other outdoor conditions will lessen the effectiveness of your treatment rapidly.
> You should also get an opinion, from someone you trust,. as to whether or not the structural integrity of the tree has been compromised.
> ...


In over 20 years of tree related work, I've never heard so many home remedies all piled up in one treatment plan. You did forget to mention rolling up a newspaper and hitting the tree, come spring. 
Seriously, are these recommendations based on any studies, or are they just things you deduced would be beneficial?


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## Tree Machine (Feb 13, 2006)

I'll bet there are plenty of solid scientific studies that can prove in absolute certainty that the periodic application of pesticides will kill and keep out the pests. There may be at least one AS member who would still challenge that.

As far as boric acid, the ants will still crawl wherever the borax is not, meaning to use this to inhibit entry, it would almost have to be applied as a solution, rather than sprinkled as a powder. This is just an intuitive guess and is not based on any scientific trial.



Sounds like the cavity has advanced to a hollow.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 13, 2006)

So it is your contention that the tree cavity needs pesticides?  
Genrally, don't you need a pest to kill, before you go nuts broadcast spraying?
Is there even a study that shows Carpenter Ants to be harmful in some way? That's assuming they ever come along.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/HTMLFILES/wound%20dressing-1.html


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## skwerl (Feb 13, 2006)

Excavation? Painting? Cement? Pesticides? Does anybody on this site know anything about CODIT? The tree's own natural chemical barrier is what will stop the advance of decay, not any external crap applied by a well meaning but completely ignorant person. The only thing you might accomplish is to violate the CODIT wall and increase the spread of decay. 

Since when do carpenter ants eat live wood? :monkey:


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## fpyontek (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> In over 20 years of tree related work, I've never heard so many home remedies all piled up in one treatment plan. You did forget to mention rolling up a newspaper and hitting the tree, come spring.
> Seriously, are these recommendations based on any studies, or are they just things you deduced would be beneficial?



To respond to Mike,try reading Dr P. P. Pirone's Tree Maintenance, fourth edition . Page 102, second paragraph, under the heading Method of Treating Cavities.
I will quote the first sentence...
"Though great emphasis in the past was placed on filling cavities with solid material, the tendency in recent years has been to leave the cavity open, once it has been cleaned out, sterilized, and painted."

I hardly stop at this site anymore because of all the petty BS. Is it feelings of inadequacy that cause some people here to automatically attack others? Next time you should check your sources before clicking the Submit button.  

Fred


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## DeanBrown3D (Feb 13, 2006)

Neighbor is old and (in my opinion quite wise, and quite the rural type, does all his own wood cutting and hunting, etc). He says that after filling in the hole the tree will eventually grow around and cover up at least part of the cement.

Anyway, thanks all for the tips. If I paint it, what kind of paint are we talking about?

Thanks,

Dean


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## Stumper (Feb 13, 2006)

Fred, I don't wish to quarrel with you or Dr. PP. but at this particular stage in history the leading scientist in the field , having disected a bunch of trees that arborists and homeowners tried to help and others that were left to their own devices, advises that we simply leave cavities alone. Historically there have been filling operations that were 'successful'-trees got reinforcement and decay did not progress further. I am sure that cleaning ops without fillers that did not violate CODIT walls have shown good results also. However, given the overall statistics, my own observations support the "leave things alone" recommendation.
Most of us are men. When we see a problem we want to fix it. Doing nothing is uncomfortable. Some of us are now at the stage where the larger problem is not the cavity but rather the attempt to fix it. Being good guys we try to fix the "bigger problem" and so argue with fixers.---See we are alll the same,just different-


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## fpyontek (Feb 13, 2006)

Stumper, thanks for the constructive criticism. As always, I value your opinion and enjoy reading your posts. 
I believe that treating the cavity by removing the unoccupied galleries allows you to place the insecticide closer to the ants where they are active. Secondly, removing the damaged soft wood allows you to get a better idea of the extent of the damage so a recommendation can made on whether the tree needs to be removed.
I also believe that using any type of paint, exterior house paint for example, slows the wood's absorption of moisture, since carpenter ants attack water damaged wood.
The best you could hope for in treating a cavity is a temporary arresting of the problem while holding the ants in check.
In any field of science the "latest opinions" can change periodically. I think using your knowledge of the subject, combined with the experience of 32 years of working in the field should be considered when evaluating popular opinion.
If we leave the problem alone, the tree will surely succumb to the ant infestation.

Fred


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## Tree Machine (Feb 13, 2006)

I agree with that last point. It's a natural progression that's probably been in place since the beginning of time. I believe there is a point in the progression where the attempt at doing anything is essentially an effort in futility, that nature has taken a strong enough foothold that anything done can at best, delay the inevitable. This goes along with the conventional thinking and practice. Still, I'm of the school that doing something is better than nothing, though if the condition is too far progressed I may go as far as to make it aesthetically appealing, but only if the clients wants and is willing to pay for it. If I believe the condition can be arrested, I will do it often for free for the sake of the tree.

Catching wound sites and/or abscesses early on I think, holds merit, though painting is still useless (as proven) unless it creates an aerobic barrier or provides fungistatic or fungicidal protection. If the coating simply kept the interior wood intact so that the callus had a hard surface to grow over, that could be useful. Fungal biology needs to be considered _minimally_ as much as tree biology if we're ever to truly come up with a solution.

Wounds at the base of the tree are especially bad, though, because of the proximity to the earth, the coolness and moistness, the direct contact with all the bugs and microbes of the soil. 

I wish I could offer a solution, Dean, but I don't truly believe there is one except to promote excellent health (soil amendments, fertilization) and prune to prevent the tree from growing to it's genetic height (encourage a stouter, sturdier tree).

I agree with your excavation to assess how far the decay has gone. You mention carpenter ants attacking water-damaged wood. I know what you mean, but it is not water that damages wood. It is fungus. All fungus needs is wood, water and oxygen. The ants come in and feed on the fungus, whose powerful enzymes have softened the wood (decay). The ants tear into the wood and feed on the mycelium, and tunnel to create galleries and nests, a home surrounded by food. Pretty good deal for the ants.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 13, 2006)

Listen to the Florida Skwerl on this one. Ants don't hurt trees. Leave 'em alone. 

Don't fill cavities. That treatment went out of practice over sixty years ago!

Check the publishing date of Pirone's book. I think that there are more current books on the subject of tree care. Shigo's books are much more current.


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## rb_in_va (Feb 13, 2006)

treeseer said:


> I agree with fred but not sure on the paint. Stick in a yardstick to measure the cavity. take a picture and post here with more info.



Yes, post pictures of your large ash holes! 

Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.


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## rebelman (Feb 13, 2006)

Thank you Tom!


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## DeanBrown3D (Feb 14, 2006)

You guys crease me up!


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## treeseer (Feb 14, 2006)

TD you should do more dissection. Last time the carpenter ant ? was raised, I cited several extension bulletins that affirmed the reality that I've seen in cut-through sections of decay: carpenter ants do extend their tunnels into solid wood. So going after them is proper if it does not damage living tissue.

Re the ash holes, if after measuring you find that a lot of structural strength has been lost-->2/3 area--then it makes sense to not only clean the crown but thin/reduce it to lessen strain on the defect. Pouring concrete makes no sense to me.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 14, 2006)

I've never seen ants break barriers in any of the slicing and dicing [dissections] that I've done. Maybe the ants are different in your area. 

Would you post the extension bulletins or link to the thread where you posted them previously?


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## Tree Machine (Feb 14, 2006)

The ants will follow the path of the decay for natural reasons. The fungus, in having softened the wood makes it easy for the ants to tunnel. Also, they're following behind a perpetuating source of food. Like any creature, they tend to follow along the path of least resistance, whenever possible. If the fungus has not penetrated wood in an area, I doubt the ants would have a reason or incentive (hard wood, no food source) to tunnel into an area of non-decay.

If a compartmentalization wall can prevent the entry of fungus then there is little likelihood of the ants entering that area.

The theory, then, that ants do no damage to the tree, technically, is true. They do speed up the progression and enlargement of hollows, which is pretty hard to dispute. I guess it would be whether you choose to see _that_ as damage to the tree. I don't. It's still the fungus that is doing the decay, and the ants are just naturally seizing the opportunity.

Application of pesticides to prevent or delay the onset of the hollow might make the tree owner feel better about it, but decayed wood won't really add much to the structural integrity of the trunk, so whether you have an intact column of decay, or an ant-galleried column of decay, I don't feel there is a lot of strength difference. The strength will come from the non-decayed portions of the tree.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 14, 2006)

fpyontek said:


> If we leave the problem alone, the tree will surely succumb to the ant infestation.
> 
> Fred


It seems the Department of Entomology at Iowa State University, would disagree with you:

"_Carpenter ants in trees are not directly harmful to the tree. Control is not essential for the tree's health, as the ants are only taking advantage of an existing situation of soft, weak wood in which to establish their colony. Stress, mechanical injury, environmental conditions, disease or other insects are responsible for killing limbs or sections of the trees in which the ants are able to nest. Once injury has occurred, wood decay can set in if moisture is present; it is the wood decay that gives the carpenter ants the opportunity to colonize the tree. Carpenter ants use knots, cracks, holes and old insect tunnels to gain access to these areas._"

From http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/1995/5-26-1995/cants.html

According to the Department of Entomology at University of Minnesota:

"_Carpenter ants nest in trees in one of two situations: 1) in rotted, decayed wood or 2) in the center heartwood section of the tree. In neither case are they harmful to the tree. Control is unnecessary for the tree's health, as the ants are taking advantage of preexisting soft, weak wood to establish their colony._"

From: http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/DK1015.html

And here's a good one:


"_CARPENTER ANTS IN TREES 
Well, I guess so! That's where they're supposed to live! There are carpenter ants in just about every tree. (Often, they're called "tree ants" for that reason) They live in the crotch of just about every tree you can see. And sometimes, because a tree is near the end of its life cycle, you may see a LOT of them. The ants don't hurt the tree. They are not causing the tree to be less viable than it normally would be. They are a symptom, not a cause. No need to spray or treat carpenter ants in a tree. In fact, if you DO treat them, they may migrate to somewhere else - maybe to a place where you don't want them. (Your house?) Just leave them in the tree - they won't hurt anything just where they are. The ants do have a close and harmless symbiotic relationships with all trees, don't worry about them. If anything, they help the tree. 
And what if you treat them anyway, what happens? Well, they die. But you don't think they'll STAY dead do you? After awhile, when the insecticide wears off, they'll be back! So why do it? It's just a waste of insecticide, money and your time._"

From:http://www.unexco.com/carpants.html


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## Tree Machine (Feb 14, 2006)

I've never read very much on ants in trees, so Thank You, Mike, for posting that. They state it pretty strongly that ants are not the culprit. I would have to agree on pretty much everything that is said there, though they don't cover the fungal end of things, except remotely. The first statement only refers to fungus in relation to the condition it causes

_preexisting soft, weak wood_ 

and 

_wood decay can set in if moisture is present; it is the wood decay that gives the carpenter ants the opportunity to colonize the tree._

The second statement, "CARPENTER ANTS IN TREES" doesn't even mention fungus or decay in any way.






I only mention because this thread is about the hollows in Fred's ash trees, and it is fungus, not ants, doing the decaying.





I'd say that now there is a much better sense about *the relationship of Ants and Trees*. What I'm intrigued by is the relationship between the _Ants and the Fungus_, or insects and fungus, for that matter. You find all kinds of crawlies in cavities and hollows, not just ants.


That's not really the topic of this thread, though.

















Or is it?


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## DeanBrown3D (Feb 15, 2006)

(btw its Dean)

I'll take some pics as soon as the area is clear of all the snow we just had. 

i.e. in April.

Dean


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## Tree Machine (Feb 15, 2006)

Did I say Fred's ash trees? Sorry bout that , Dean.

Dean's ash trees.


Pics would be cool, but honestly, arborists see this all the time. It's a hole in the base of the tree. It's unfortunately, very common. Holes in trees, regardless of where they are, or how big they are, all happen in pretty much the same way. Certain species are better compartmentalizers and thus more resistant to the penetration of fungus and thus less likely to form a hollow, but no tree is immune. Even the healthiest, best compartmentalizer can form a hollow, given the proper conditions.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 15, 2006)

Amost every tree has some hollow, and Ash are very good compartmentalizers.
For those of you who don't know much about strength loss due to hollows, here's a link to a good JOA article: http://www.treelink.org/joa/2001/march/04_FORMULAE_TO_ASSESS_STRENGTH_LOSS_FROM_DECAY_kane.pdf
The reading is a little dry, but the information is good to understand if you are making judgment calls on tree removals due to hollows.
I find Mattheck's T/R stuff interesting because it takes into account off center hollows.


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