# friction hitches



## treeclimber165 (Oct 6, 2002)

I can't express just how excited I am about my recent switch from an open friction hitch to a closed setup using a 4/1 distal hitch. This hitch is amazing how it almost never needs to be touched. With a tender pulley, it ascends as if it wasn't there, and locks instantly when I put weight on it. To descend, two fingers on top release it easily, and when I let go it locks instantly again. 

How many others out there are still using an open hitch, like I did for so many years? What are your other favorite hitches, and why? Who has a closed hitch that might be even better than the distal? The M.T. looks like it would let you descend further before holding due to the multiple crossovers, but I'm anxious to try it once I get a long enough hitch rope.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 6, 2002)

That UT is enroute via UPS ground. Not enough for a VT though, I got enough for a few hitches and that is the remander. You should be able to go down to 3:1 with that.

Play with the length between knots to get the optimal hold.


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## rbtree (Oct 6, 2002)

John,

when I first tried the Schwabish, it was with my UT cord that I use for my 4+3 Vt. I didnt like it at all, it bound up too much. 3/8 double braid is the best I've used so far, the $22 eye and eye tenex would slip sometimes or bind up a bit. I didnt give it much of a chance though, as to me, the Vt is better. Funny, in my brief experimenting with wraps, and lengths , I found the distel sometimes grabs less positively than the schwabisch. One would think the opposiste, due to the reversed direction of the wraps, like a tautline.


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## hillbilly (Oct 6, 2002)

I go with the 4 over 1 schwabisch.
Being such a newcomer in treeclimbing, I started
learing the 4 over 1 distal rightaway. Never even tried
the open split tail hitches.
I switched to schwabisch cause it seems to
hold together better than the distal, it looks prettier
basically 
Other than that, they seem very equal in performance.
The schwabisch might bite a little better, all depending
on the ropes I guess.


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## Ghivelder (Oct 6, 2002)

I'm also using a 4 over 1 distel with Petzl's fixe pulley.
I often use this set up connected to a flat webbing (instead of connected directly to the harness). The carabiner can be used as a handle (very nice when body-thrusting) and slides easily up the rope.

Sergio

www.tree-climbing.com


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 6, 2002)

Well brian, you've only been screwing around with the closed prussic loop for a couple weeks and youy are already looking for the next upgrade, good for you.
The hitches you have been using so far are all about the same, you tie, dress, set. They have consistent presure on them depending on how tight you set them. The next step is to go to hitches like the VT that work like a chinese finger trap. Their are as many variations of them out there as there are bored climbers to invent them.
Look at the sherrill cataloge, there are one or two pictured there. There are also about twenty or more on the web, and if you ask around at a show, you should be able to find about twenty or thirty more. Be warned these take a bit more skill to figure out how to tie and use, but it's worth the time and effort.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 6, 2002)

Rog, who's double braid do you use, Samson stabil braid?


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## rbtree (Oct 6, 2002)

It is Puget Sound Rope's product. I think Mark C uses NER.

They're probably all pretty similar. 3/8th works well...


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 6, 2002)

Hmmm, seems PSR has 2 DB ropes in 3/8 nylon and poly. both are rated at 4400#.

NERope t900 is a poly covered spectra-technora blend with 10,000#

UT is poly coated technora, cannot get at their site.

4400# seems ok to me on a closed loop system, what is your perfoot cost?


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## Stumper (Oct 6, 2002)

RB, Will they ship out of state? I have no handy source for double braid and would like to try it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 7, 2002)

i run a 3/1distel in 3 strand. i kinda like the chinese finger puzzle knot theory, and have reflected on that imagery in playing with them; but don't like all that line and slack on bridge, especiallly before being able to engage slacktender, mine is in fixed position. Do you guys use a fixed position tender, moving tender or adjustable bridging?

i kinda think that prusik family knots (that the hitch stops and changes direction, having both ends exit on the same side, with a straight bar), will always pull closed tighter than a similar clove hitch type (distel, ends exit on opposite sides) because that tendancy is in the open styles of these knots.


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 7, 2002)

For me it's 4-up 1 down Swaybish. Although I'm going to try the Distel again. The Swaybish binds if I sit on it too long. I tried the VT, but for some reason didn't like it. I will try the VT with different rope. I have big hands, Ultra-Tech was hard for me to grab.


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## Acer (Oct 8, 2002)

I've been trying out the v.t (I think it is..). I'm really impressed..with a tender pulley, it's great to be able to take up slack so easily just with one hand. I wasn't sure to start, because it looks as if it will fall apart when not loaded - pictures of the distel look more reassuring - but it never has so far, and it's never ever locked. My only problem is it's awkward to body thrust with it compared to the old blake's hitch. I might get round that with a sliding bridge system..just push the bridge up and thrust away, I'd imagine the whole thing looks after itself.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who prefers distel over v.t and why...


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 8, 2002)

I'd like to see a picture of the V.T. that is as clear as Sergio's picture of the distal hitch. I tried copying the V.T. off of one site and it fell apart on me, it just rolled down from the top.

Acer, a tender pulley is practically required for body thrusting. If you make a small prusik loop out of a bootlace or something, you can clip the pulley on the standing side of your lifeline. With the prusik loop, you can adjust it up or down. When body thrusting (air humping), I slide mine as far up as it will go and it keeps my friction hitch up out of my way. I can concentrate on pulling myself up and never touch my hitch.


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## Tim Gardner (Oct 8, 2002)

V.T.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 8, 2002)

Thanks, Tim. I wanted to make sure I had it right. For some reason I thought it would be more complicated, but it's simplicity is amazing. I guess the complicated name threw me off!


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## Nickrosis (Oct 8, 2002)

Another option while body thrusting is to have a person on the ground belay you. While you're pulling on the rope, let the hitch fall to the side. The groundperson can pull on the tail, and the micro-pulley will advance the knot, about at your waist.

Nickrosis


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 8, 2002)

I still don't know why people thrust when they can footlock


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *I still don't know why people thrust when they can footlock *



I've never been able to footlock, John. But I'm picking up a Pantin tomorrow so I can pretend like I'm footlocking!  

You'd be amazed how much you can build muscles by air humping, though. If you are out of practice and have to air hump 60' or so, you will discover muscles you forgot you had by the next day!


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## Greg (Oct 9, 2002)

I body thrust more than I footlock just because my climbs aren't very high, and if I BT I can get right to work when I get up there. If I footlock I would have to untie and then tie to set myself up for work. The 1 minute saved is lost in the knots.
Greg


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## Greg (Oct 9, 2002)

Sergio,
I just re-read your post about how you use your frict hitch attached to your harness via a loop of webbing, and then use the Biner as a kind of handle for advancing the knot. That sounds like a good idea, do you use a daisy chain? If not how do you adj the size of your webbing loop, or do you just stick with one size? or do you not use a loop and just tie knots with the webbing?
I want to go play with that
Greg


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greg _
> *Sergio,
> I just re-read your post about how you use your frict hitch attached to your harness via a loop of webbing, and then use the Biner as a kind of handle for advancing the knot. That sounds like a good idea, do you use a daisy chain? If not how do you adj the size of your webbing loop, or do you just stick with one size? or do you not use a loop and just tie knots with the webbing?
> I want to go play with that
> Greg *



Greg, you can figure out what size strap will work by experimenting with a short piece of rope, double fishermans at both ends. Or an old split-tail rope.


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## TREETX (Oct 9, 2002)

*Still learning.*

I have a rope set up in a huge oak whose base is not 3 feet from this computer. I go out there a few times every evening and footlock. Great practice and footlocking uses a lot of new muscles as well. 

What I have learned. The slowest footlocker is faster than the fastest air humper. There is a bit of a pucker factor to get over with footlocking. Once you get over that, you don't waste so much energy being tense.

The rope has come in handy with trying new hitches. I have found that is not really something you can do on the job. Because work time is where you use "old trusty". Play time is where you experiment.


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## Acer (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *
> Acer, a tender pulley is practically required for body thrusting. If you make a small prusik loop out of a bootlace or something, you can clip the pulley on the standing side of your lifeline. With the prusik loop, you can adjust it up or down. When body thrusting (air humping), I slide mine as far up as it will go and it keeps my friction hitch up out of my way. I can concentrate on pulling myself up and never touch my hitch. *



I know what you mean. I tried something like that with the old blake's hitch, but it locked up half the time. The v.t just doesn't seem to do that. I tried putting a loop in the standing part of the rope with an alpine butterfly, and clipped the vt/tender pulley/carabiner to that. It does speed things up, you never have to touch the hitch, just thrust. However, there must be a quicker way than tying an alpine butterfly all the time, so I'll have to do a few trials as you suggest.

I don't know that many people over here who footlock. I've never seen anyone who's any good, barring climbing competitions, but it does look good when done properly. I need to put in a lot of practice. The rope always seems to slip through my boots, and by the time I get a good grip with my feet, I've put weight on the hitch and jammed it. I wonder if you can use the vt as your footlocking hitch? Footlocking's fine if you can set a line high and you've got a straight run. Most trees I'm in tend to be too crowded and snaggy for the throwline. We tend to just throw the climbing rope over the first branch we can and wade in. That's why not many people I've met can footlock - not much incentive to practice. Having said that, I might have to have another go next time I get a day off, cos it's another tool in the kitbag...


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 9, 2002)

Acer,
Rather than tying a knot in the standing part of your lifeline, I was suggesting making a 6" loop out of throwline or an old bootlace. Take the 6" loop of small line and use it to make a prusik hitch on the standing side of the lifeline. Attach the tender pulley to this loop using a small clip. You can slide it up or down on the standing side of your lifeline to adjust the height of the tender pulley.


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## budroe69moni (Oct 9, 2002)

can some post a picture of the distal hitch?????
it's not in the tree climbers companion and i can't
find my sherrill catalog. 
thanks in advance!!!
budroe


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## hillbilly (Oct 9, 2002)

Have you been to this site Budroe?
They have loads of nice pictures of friction hitches:
http://community-2.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots/

/ hillillybilly


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 9, 2002)

The Distal, Schwabisch and French Prusik are shown on page 18 in the Sherrill catalog, when you find it. 

Thanks for the Ultra Tech, JPS. It's a little short, only 24" with double fishermans knots at the ends, but it is good enough for me to use. I really like how the UT handles, but I'm not used to such a small diameter hitch rope. I need to whip the ends since it won't melt. Can I use SpiderWire 60 lb. test fishing line to whip the ends?


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## Tim Gardner (Oct 9, 2002)

Brian,

I dipped the ends of my Tech Cord in Star Brite Liquid Electrical Tape and it has worked great. I think 3M also puts out liquid tape. Boat Shops and stores like HD or Lowe's sell it.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 9, 2002)

I was going to try that, Tim. But when I dug out my old can of Star Brite liquid electrical tape, it had hardened because I didn't tighten the lid well last time. I ended up whipping the ends with the SpiderWire. We'll see how it holds up, but it looks fine. Gotta hit Discount Auto Parts to pick up some more Star Brite. I think it's about $3


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## Kevin (Oct 9, 2002)

> can some post a picture of the distal hitch?????




There are other variations of this hitch.
I use the 3 over 2.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 10, 2002)

Kevin,

Where did that illustration of the Distel come from?

It should be noted that the Distel will handle differently depending on which side of the crossover the eyes are clipped to the biner. If the eyes wrap towards or behind the crossovers, there will be different amounts of friction. See what works for you.

Tom


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 10, 2002)

Tom,
I believe that picture Kevin posted is identical to the pic on page 18 in the Sherrill catalog. 

Along with what you said, I use the Distal but I clip it backwards from the way shown- so the crossover is facing me.


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## Ghivelder (Oct 10, 2002)

Greg,
I just use a fixed webbing like this:





Determining the right lengh is easy: it should be the furthest away from you as possible, but you must still be able to touch the top of the hitch in order to descend.
There was much talk on the forum about “adjustable bridges” and someone said that instead of an adjustable bridge, he had a piece of tape hanging from the central ring so that he could change the hitch from a close to far position. I thought that was a good idea since in fact we don’t need the in-between positions.
Personally, I came to this set-up for different reasons: because of a problem on my right shoulder I much prefer (and it’s in fact easier) to pull than to push. When I use a blake, I’ll never add a micro-pulley because it gets hard on my shoulder. I also think that the main characteristic of the blake is the way it stays dressed and the bulk that makes it so nice to advance by hand – not a good knot for slack tendind with a micro-pulley. Advance hitches are a whole different matter: they don’t even make sense without a micro-pulley. But still, I prefer not to push…What to do? I realized that using a pulley like Petzl’s fixe (with fixed plates) the rope goes through frictionless and the plates will advance the hitch like an ascender by just moving up the carabiner. I’m really happy with this set-up: when you body-thrust the left hand stays all the time on the binner using it as a handle and the right hand can grab the running end of the rope at the same height, just bellow the pulley. That distributes the force equally on both arms. The only shortcoming of the system is that obviously one must always use both hands, but in particular situations, the problem can be easily solved by just switching the binner from the webbing to the central ring.
Try it, and let me know what you think…

Sergio


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## Ghivelder (Oct 10, 2002)

To make it work smooth, it's important to tie the hitch with very short legs.

Sergio


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## Stumper (Oct 10, 2002)

RB touts the V.tresse all the time so I played with one a little today. Seems like a great hitch other than having that ugly 'knot falling apart look'. Someone (JPS I think) has mention a potential for hitch failure on a "bounce" with this hitch. Could you please elaborate? I don't want to adopt a hitch that will "let me down".


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 11, 2002)

That was just an FYI post. There was a report of a study where they loaded variouse hitches in different ways.

the tress hitches were shown to unlock and run when dynamicly loaded enough to bounce up. 

This was under labratory conditions, with new ropes. 

I have seen no reports of this occuring in the feild.

I would not want to experiment either.

That all said, I do not know how often we climb in a manner that would cause such a loading. I do climb above my TIP, but usualy am maintaining good 3 poit contact the flip in. Rarely do I have a droop (or candycane and tom puts it) of rope below my feet.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 11, 2002)

i prefer a 3/1distel in 3 strand, though on my new skinnier Sherrill Yellow Jacket(#27544), i have been playing with a 4/1 lacing. i prefer the legs to come out directly to the hitchpoint, not back and around as previously pictured. When i engage my tender, i like no slack, total push under the friction hitch.

Pictured is my solution that i come down to after a while of addressing the issues of extending the reach, thereby the length per pull, for knot tending in situations where a lot of travel is desired and the efficiency of longer pulls comes to be the high point. Other things i have tried are to put a sliding prusik(or ropeman cam device) on the dead end of the host line to serve up the tender to the adjustable side of the host line (at friction hitch) as per the original (to me) Sherrill picture of long ago. Then on ISA someone had the idea of a prusik adjustable bridge as an option that i tried for a bit, but came back to this that i have pictured.

The pic is off some, to show the rubber boot better, in actual use i have it on the lower 'biner for stretching or contracting this length, thereby stretching or folding the sling's length. Even though i only open the 'biner for this while tied in seperately, that lil rubber bootie, about insures that the sling will not come off it's mount ('biner).

The express stitched sling from Sherrill is rated (conservitively?) at ~4950#(22kn); i use it very little extended, it recieves very little wear, and has my personal confidence.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 11, 2002)

*V.T.*

I received my 20' of T-900 today from SailNet (Thanks, Dan for the link). I finally have a long enough piece of hitch rope to try the V.T. Tying it while sitting here at my desk, it looks even better than the Distal. I can't wait to try it tomorrow.

After years of keeping my right hand on my friction hitch all the time, I'm finally starting to get used to the idea that I don't have to mess with my hitch. Using a bridge for my tender pulley was becoming cumbersome whenever I needed to redirect my rope. I'm getting better about using the tender pulley on the same biner as my hitch, and simply pulling the tail of the rope out to advance my hitch. Placing my hand on my hitch is no longer necessary. This is a lot easier than my old method, especially when limbwalking.

Frigging amazing that I've gone from a tautline hitch to split-tail (one day) to distal to V.T. in a single month. I've spent more on gear this month than the last 3 years, and I still want more.


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## rborist1 (Oct 11, 2002)

:Eye:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 11, 2002)

He resisted and compartmentalized the infection for over a year, now he has full blown symtoms of gearitis.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 11, 2002)

The next step will be using a cambium saver. 
I know, you been climbing for twenty years and you don't need no stinkin' "whachyamacallit". It takes too long to set and too long to take down. It costs too much. Blah, blah, blah.
Take my word for it, you need one.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 12, 2002)

Welcome to the ranks of progressive climbing!

This testimonial proves, once again, that once a climber moves from tautline/Blake's to split tail and advanced hitches, they zoom into the Modern Age and never look back. 

Good for you! Now spread the gospel to other climbers in your area.

Tom


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 13, 2002)

I Tried the V.T. yesterday, and I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be. It might be because my hitch rope was too long, but it didn't grab real well and took me a lot longer to tie than the Distal. It required a LOT of fiddling to get the legs the same length. It also had more resistance when I was ascending. I guess I gotta keep playing with it so I can figure out why everyone likes it so much. 

I found a great picture of the V.T. last night, borrowed from Fresco's online store site.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 13, 2002)

Wrong picture, lets try this one.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 13, 2002)

Brian, That's one version, not mine though. 
With your biner off your saddle tie the hitch and add the fair lead, once it's on the host rope, lift it up a couple of inches and pull down quickly. Repeat this 5 or 6 times quickly. If it does not lock down every time, retie it shorter. If it locks down every time but moves up with any difficulty(like the distel on it's best day), then lengthen. An increment as little as 1/4" can change everything.
Even changing host ropes can change the way it works.
With practice, and both ends of the prussic loop disconected, it should only take 5 or 10 seconds to tie. You leave the DFLs in after you set the length, then just clip it on.
Be careful, this ain't the hitch for your momma.
Low and slow.


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## Tim Gardner (Oct 13, 2002)

Here is a picture of one of the v.t. hitches I was using before I went to a mechanical hitch. It is (I think) 3 wrap 2 braid. The cord is 5/16 double braid with eye splices and is 24” in length. This is the combination that works for me. It performs well on 3/8”, 7/16” and ½”. Grabs fast and releases easy. 

My last v.t. was 7 wrap 2 braid 3/16” tech cord @ 33”. I loved that one but had to use Double Fisherman’s Loops to connect to the biner.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 13, 2002)

I've seen guys have the pully on a separate biner ifthe have the sliding center, like a Komet Butterfly.


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## Tim Gardner (Oct 13, 2002)

JPS,

What would the benefit be of having the pulley on a separate biner? I like the way my rig works but if there is a better way I am all for it.


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## Ghivelder (Oct 13, 2002)

In my opinion, the Distel is a much better hitch than the v.t.
The v.t. will lose at least 10 cm each time before "extending" into the grab position. That means meters and meters of useless pulling by the end of the day. A very short distel moves much faster in both directions. The only disadvantage I'll concede, is the distel's superior wear. But who cares?

Sergio


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## TREETX (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Acer _
> *
> I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who prefers distel over v.t and why... *



Still like to hear more here.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tim Gardner _
> *JPS,
> 
> What would the benefit be of having the pulley on a separate biner? I like the way my rig works but if there is a better way I am all for it. *



Sorry I missed this one, I do it because I'm less likely to drop it when tieing in. I ascend before doing so so I've dropped a pully while dangling off my lanyard.


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## Tim Gardner (Jun 18, 2003)

JPS - thank you for the reply. I get it now.  I have lost a pulley once while climbing and cursed for 10 minutes looking for it. Since then I have my hitch tied before ascending. I use a different rope to footlock. That way I can step onto the limb unclip my shunt and move on. The groundie can have my 3/8" static done up before I hit my TIP.


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## tjk (Jun 19, 2003)

All of our climbers including myself prefer a VT over a distil because of the resistance to advance the hitch. We are losing a little because of the collaping but with the repetitive motion of advancing a hitch we prefer as little resistance as possiable.


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## TREETX (Jun 23, 2003)

*Terminology??*

Just want to make sure I am using the proper terminology. I see this being mixed a lot here or not differentiated at all. I am headed out to give the XT a whirl today. I am curious about the distinction between the m.t. and v.t. 

Maas lists it here is this correct?http://amazingforums.com/forum/XMAN/14.html

I have been using the crossing and the not crossing versions off and on over the last few weeks.

Just a bit concerned as I have heard these knots are tied 100%correct or 100% wrong.


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## Tim Gardner (Jun 23, 2003)

It just does not seem worth the effort to tie the m.t. correctly. Does someone have a tip to speed it up or make it simple.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 24, 2003)

MT reverses rotation from the top coil going to the bottom "tress" then just keep one leg always on the bottom as you wrap down.


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## TREETX (Jun 26, 2003)

There are so many different members of the family VT, MT, XT - I can't figure which I like the best. Spend yesterday working the tips on a monster cottonwood (friggin' hate those scary trees).

I mainly stuck with a 4-2 XT w/8mm-T900. Can't say enough good things about that hitch.

I may never be loyal to just one again.


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