# Axe Men Yarder/Carriage Question



## 2dogs (Mar 15, 2011)

Last week Cody and I were were watching LLL set up their big swing yarder (a Cypress?) and I expected them to be grapple yarding. Instead they began with the mechanical carriage. First off what kind of carriage is it? Second since it doesn't clamp does the haulback hold it in place while while the mainline acts as the dropline and spools in?


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## Humptulips (Mar 15, 2011)

The mechanical carriages they use on the grapple type yarders have a double mainline. One is the main and one is the slack puller. The main, slackpuller and dropline are all shackled together ahead of the carriage with the slackpuller going through the carriage and back towards the yarder to the main. The dropline is shackled in and feeds back throuth the carriage. The whole thing works on tension to keep the carriage in the air. When you skin the rigging back both main and slackpuller spool off at the same rate and you keep it in the air by tightlining. When stopped to pay out drop line mainline goes out at the same rate slackpuller comes in. The slackpuller works a sheave as it pulls the main and dropline back towards carriage that pinches the droplline and provides pull to pull the dropline back out of the carriage. 
Not as complicated as I made it sound. Basically works like a grabinsky with a double mainline to let out or reel in dropline.


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## slowp (Mar 15, 2011)

Since they had the yarder rigged like that at the beginning of that segment, but had chokers on the carriage, not a grapple, should we then think they had to go with another storyline...the carriage broke the chokers so they then had to switch to a grapple, and we then heard the crew complaining and a grapple was attached...and on with the storyline? I think the story will be about trying a new method--the grapple and the heartaches, cussing and fighting that will occur. Do ya think they might be well aquainted with a grapple and the show might not be real? :msp_ohmy:

I couldn't figure out that configuration either. It looked like a carriage rigged as a grabinski, just like Humptulips says. But I refuse to wear my glasses when in the house so details are missed.

Note that the Canadians yell, "WATCH OOT!" But not watch oot eh.


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## Humptulips (Mar 15, 2011)

I've also seen them rigged with a Roberts butt hook on the bottom of the carriage and no dropline. Then it really is just a grabinsky.
Those type machines have some sort of interlock on them so they run real smooth and can tightline basically all the time without going through brakes.
Hard on tailholds!


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## hammerlogging (Mar 15, 2011)

sounds like a mechanical slack pulling carriage then, I didn't notice. a 3 drum carriage. I got to hook under one once. An alternative to a motorized carriage then, eh- a way to power feed the skidding line for lateral yarding. OUrs worked good except for an occasional hangup from a kink in the skidline, the drum consortium would get stuck as the slackpuller would be brought in, releasing (trying to) the skid line (ie dopline) as the main line was being spooled in the carriage, dropline would hang up and BLAH.

Pretty cool setup if you dont mind a bunch of lines. a bunch

Course, I don't even know what a grabinsky is. MAy I leave the floor to Humptulips, and SlowP


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## slowp (Mar 15, 2011)

Rider block is the other name that I couldn't think of. The few I've seen here had the butt rigging hanging on a block, and that ran on a skyline? One outfit had to do that to get barely enough lift, after the cutters (truckdrivers with chainsaws) had cut down the selected tail trees. It was a clearcut. It was not a happy time.

This has one shown but you have to scroll down. 

Logging eTool: Yarding - Examples of Cable Yarding Systems From the Washington State Safety Standards for Logging


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## 2dogs (Mar 15, 2011)

Maybe my BS radar was not working the other night then. Or... why in the heck would LLL bring tons of gear but not a spare carriage? The grapples all looked well used but the carriage looked kinda rusty. 

BTW thanks Humptulips for the info. I've read it several times and I sort of understand what you wrote, I'm still digesting. Thanks slowp also for the links. I've used that etool before. If anyone has any pics I would like to see them posted. Too bad Contract Logger doesn't visit here very often.

Also is that carriage just called a slack pulling carriage?


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## Humptulips (Mar 16, 2011)

Usually called a mechanical slack pulling carriage to differentiate from a motorized slack pulling carriage.


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## snowmaniac (Mar 21, 2011)

If they can't afford a spare slack pulling carriage it would seem like an old christy block for a spare would be a good idea.


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## redwood logger (Mar 22, 2011)

think of the mechanical carriage like a constant tug a war between the haulback and the two front drums and those two front drums are working back and forth against each other to pay out dropline. It is a real simple system. It limits your reach due to the fact that the haulback is going to the tail and back. but on the other hand the carriage is bullet proof, you can drop it out of the sky, hit it with old growth trees then go right back to logging. they can pull hard forward, backwards, upside down, and all you have to do is grease it once in a while and maybe throw some new bearings in every 4 or 5 million bf or so. the system is more labor for the hook tender but the riggin crew likes the short (150') dropline.


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## 2dogs (Mar 22, 2011)

redwood logger said:


> think of the mechanical carriage like a constant tug a war between the haulback and the two front drums and those two front drums are working back and forth against each other to pay out dropline. It is a real simple system. It limits your reach due to the fact that the haulback is going to the tail and back. but on the other hand the carriage is bullet proof, you can drop it out of the sky, hit it with old growth trees then go right back to logging. they can pull hard forward, backwards, upside down, and all you have to do is grease it once in a while and maybe throw some new bearings in every 4 or 5 million bf or so. the system is more labor for the hook tender but the riggin crew likes the short (150') dropline.


 
Why not use a motorised slack puller?


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## hammerlogging (Mar 22, 2011)

It costs more to buy, and it is a lot heavier reducing net turn payload ?

Another carriage question- on a radio controlled carriage, with a clamp, does the radio controller just operate the clamp or does it by chance have some sort of powered slack puller in there? Any idea what kind of carriage I might be talking about, I couldn't find any markings on it.


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## slowp (Mar 22, 2011)

The ones around here, will also pull the line out and it spools through the carriage. You'll hear the honk honk of the carriage and then the motor speeds up and the line starts spooling off. So yes, the control (Talkie Tooter) also controls that. 

The carriage tooter sounds like a weak Chevy pickup horn.


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## Humptulips (Mar 23, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> It costs more to buy, and it is a lot heavier reducing net turn payload ?
> 
> Another carriage question- on a radio controlled carriage, with a clamp, does the radio controller just operate the clamp or does it by chance have some sort of powered slack puller in there? Any idea what kind of carriage I might be talking about, I couldn't find any markings on it.



There are two kinds of motorized carriages. 
One kind has a drum and a bigger motor. They are heavy and built flimsy to keep the weight down as much as possible. If you drop them or even bump them they are broke and a big bill but they are fast.
Second kind is what you're talking about. They have a hydraulic system in them to apply the skyline clamp ( two aluminum shoes) and the clamp on the skidding line/drop line. Also they have a live wheel in them that when the skidding line is forced into, pulls slack from the yarder. They are tougher then the kind with a drum but slower because you can only perform one function at a time where the kind with a drum in them you can drum a turn to the carriage while the yarder is skidding the turn.

Carriage is stopped at the turn, skyline clamp on, skidding clamp off. Activate slack puller by line being crowded into live wheel. Drop line powers off to you. Set your turn then skidding clamp off, pull turn up to carriage then skidding clamp on, skyline clamp off and turn goes to landing.

So what about the mechanical dropline carriage. Carriage is tough, you can drop it, bang it, what ever it's good to go but there are draw backs.
First you need a yarder built for it like a grapple yarder which cost more.
Second more work for the hook tender sometimes requiring a pimp.
To understand you have to know how much extra rigging there is. On a skyline you have to string one leg of strawline on the mechanical you need to string two legs plus the blocks. Skyline, one small tommy will do. On the mechanical you're using haulback blocks which are about 75 pounds and 7/8 or 3/4 straps plus you are most often rigging tail trees because you can't hang way back to get lift like you can with a skyline. Last one I worked on I had two 15 inch tailblocks and two 13 inch tree blocks for each road so that is 8 haulback blocks you're lugging around plus 7/8 straps, 3/4 tree chokers, 4 150'x1/2" guylines, climbing gear, pass rope, axe, saw and maybe some coils for twisters. That not counting the strawline to string the road line. My back starts hurting again just thinking about it.

Another thing the MSP carriages are very hard on line. I usually figured to splice on average one eye a day. They do go through haulbacks too. Steady logging, I'd say you would be lucky to get a year out of a haulback.


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## BC_Logger (Mar 23, 2011)

It seemed a little strange that they weren't more proficient with the grapple as grapple yarding here in BC is Pretty common sight
especially on the big Madill 124's


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## hammerlogging (Mar 23, 2011)

thanks humptulips


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## redwood logger (Mar 23, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> There are two kinds of motorized carriages.
> One kind has a drum and a bigger motor. They are heavy and built flimsy to keep the weight down as much as possible. If you drop them or even bump them they are broke and a big bill but they are fast.
> Second kind is what you're talking about. They have a hydraulic system in them to apply the skyline clamp ( two aluminum shoes) and the clamp on the skidding line/drop line. Also they have a live wheel in them that when the skidding line is forced into, pulls slack from the yarder. They are tougher then the kind with a drum but slower because you can only perform one function at a time where the kind with a drum in them you can drum a turn to the carriage while the yarder is skidding the turn.
> 
> ...


 
with the broken up ground around here, i only have to rig about 3 or 4 tail trees per year and since we log clear cuts i can often make my hook up for the next road line in the back end rarely pulling haywire all the way from the yarder. with my great yarder engineer i can get 2 years out of a 7/8 swedged haulback (without any long splices) running swedged mainline also we might splice 2 eyes a week, even when we logged a million a month average all summer with only a 6 man crew counting operaters, and the choker setter was green, working 9 hour days (less in the winter). we have a dandy madill 124 that cost a pretty penny, but we get great returns on that investment. gotta spend money to make money


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## Humptulips (Mar 24, 2011)

I guess it depends on the ground. I'd say around here I was rigging trees about 80% of the time. One of the reasons for that too is the Forest Practices Act, When you have a big buffer along every trickle of water it can be almost impossible to clear the lines up if you hang on through and you have to string quite aways up the hill to clear up when you're in a tree to keep the side pressure off.
I know before the FPA it was sweet hanging across canyons but I never worked on a swing yarder back them. In fact I never seen many up here as things were more geared towards longer yarding then grapple yarders were meant for.
I know Weyco had a bunch south of Grays Harbor and that ground is more suited, more broken up.
The splicing thing, maybe it was the machine, I don't know but It seemed like I was putting an eye in the drop line constantly. The main and slackpuller about once a week. We had problems with the lines wrapping too on the longer yarding. The last one I worked on we had some 1500' yarding and it was hard on it. I think that haulback only lasted 8 months and I had 3 long splices in it before they replaced it. One was a rolled in splice because it was to crystalized to tuck so you know it was shot. 7/8 by the way. 
Never did anything but clearcuts with them and I honestly can't see how guys make them work for thinning.
To tell the truth I hate the things. I'd take a tower any day over them.


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## redwood logger (Mar 24, 2011)

ive done lots of thinnings years ago, and thinnings do suck bad, but i liked hooking the swing yarder in thinnings better since it is so east to move if you need to get over 10 feet or so to better suit your corridor. also using the mechanical carriage alows you to pull backwards well when trying to get turns out in a not so thin thinning. your right about false wraps in the haulback that can be a problem on long roadlines especially if you have a extension shackled on. i have used two tail blocks 10' apart at the tail before to eliminate that when the tail hold was 3000' away. my favorite thing about swing a yarder is the ability to walk over and get back into the same guylines for the new roadline, we often will log 3 roadlines without even swinging a guyline.


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## Humptulips (Mar 24, 2011)

redwood logger said:


> my favorite thing about swing a yarder is the ability to walk over and get back into the same guylines for the new roadline, we often will log 3 roadlines without even swinging a guyline.



You can do that with any of the small yarders that are used nowadays. Hooked on a few mini-madills and we did the same thing.
Does your swing yarder have a true interlock? I worked on a Thunderbird last and it did not. It had Eaton brakes which are good but I can't see how they can claim them to be a true interlock system. IMHO

By the way if you have to back up many turns when thinning you need some new cutters.:msp_rolleyes:


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## oregoncutter (Mar 25, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> There are two kinds of motorized carriages.
> One kind has a drum and a bigger motor. They are heavy and built flimsy to keep the weight down as much as possible. If you drop them or even bump them they are broke and a big bill but they are fast.
> Second kind is what you're talking about. They have a hydraulic system in them to apply the skyline clamp ( two aluminum shoes) and the clamp on the skidding line/drop line. Also they have a live wheel in them that when the skidding line is forced into, pulls slack from the yarder. They are tougher then the kind with a drum but slower because you can only perform one function at a time where the kind with a drum in them you can drum a turn to the carriage while the yarder is skidding the turn.
> 
> ...


 
Most the clampline carriages I have seen were ACME brand carriages, Humptulips explained it right on the money as far as how they work, definitely have to be fast and accurate blowing whistles to it, and the yarder separate bugs of course then if the function box in the yarder wasn't working we used to blow a short between functions to let the operator know we were changing functions it all becomes fluid after awhile and a good rigging slinger can move some wood with one. Most the Internal drum dropline carriages I have been around were Boman and a few Danebo"s, the Bomans are actually pretty well built they run a deutz air cooled 4 or on our bigger ones a 6 cylinder diesel, there are electric over pneumatic valves mounted in them when you blow for a function it sends voltage from the box to the solenoid valve or valves which are normaly closed and the pilot shifts the piston and lets air out the function side of the valve until it's triggered again, which depending on function will then engage your'e drum, brake throttle, or whatever function You ask for. They operate the drum by hydraulics from a belt driven pump mounted near the rear of the carriage, the torque converter it's self is powered by a belt driven torque pump on the front of the motor, the air for the solenoids, brake cylinder, and throttle control, come from an air compressor similiar to what You would see on an old semi or yarder, I have seen them crash and recover pretty well, but when they crash too hard they do cost alot to repair. I have seen them come in with the belly pan broke and shoved through the oil pan, motor mounts broken, front engine covers busted in pieces, frames bent You name it. The factory parts are very expensive, but we build what we can in house, and rebuild motors, and most of the drive train. They offer alot of options for example You can change gear ratios for the drum so if You have alot of lift and need too drop or suck up some line real quick You can change the gears. Anyway other than the weight, and maintenance and repair costs I like the Boman carriages.


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## redwood logger (Mar 25, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> You can do that with any of the small yarders that are used nowadays. Hooked on a few mini-madills and we did the same thing.
> Does your swing yarder have a true interlock? I worked on a Thunderbird last and it did not. It had Eaton brakes which are good but I can't see how they can claim them to be a true interlock system. IMHO
> 
> By the way if you have to back up many turns when thinning you need some new cutters.:msp_rolleyes:


 
thats true, i hooked a mini tower for a short time on a rubber tire carrier, that sucked to move, lower the boom, pick up the pads and so on. i also would have to say most places i have worked, most of the cutters did need to be replaced. there are few good ones left. I always love how they dont get started till about 8 then they quit at 1 that is if theres no wind or rain. then they go on and on about how they are getting screwed all the time. I always tell them it must not be that bad since i dont ever see them quiting to go be a hooktender instead. i also think there is more than one way to skin a cat as far as yarding systems go and with the right crew you can move lots of wood with any set up. its to bad finding a real good crew is almost impossible these days. i am real lucky to have some real good guys to work with. they are all swing yarder guys, thats what they like and thats what they are good at. the boss could bring out a bunch of come-alongs out and say log with these cuz diesels to expensive and they would still try to set a new record for come-along loggin!!!


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