# Barometric damper.



## loadthestove (Sep 25, 2011)

Is a barometric damper needed on a wood furnace.What is their purpose ??


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## Racerboy832 (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes. The reason being is it prevents overdraft. I have a 25ft chimney, before my Baro it seemed to lose a ton of heat up the chimney. Since I put it on I have notice a drop in wood consumption and it burns cleaner and hotter.


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## Whitespider (Sep 25, 2011)

A barometric damper is used to control the draft in an appliance exhaust system. It is installed in the flue pipe between the appliance and the chimney. As chimney draft strength increases the damper opens to allow fresh air in to the flue, thereby reducing the draft strength at the appliance. Normally a barometric damper is adjusted via some sort of weight/counter weight system, using some sort of gauge at the appliance. The idea is to have constant, non-varying draft strength at the appliance.

Barometric dampers should never be used with gas fired appliances that use a “hooded” type exhaust system, such as LP and natural gas furnaces and water heater. Almost all oil fired furnaces use a barometric damper… by controlling the draft it also controls the air intake to the fire box… the barometric damper is used to set the proper and most efficient burn rate to an oil fired furnace.

In my pinion a barometric damper should never be used with a wood stove. The fresh air entering the flue cools the flue gases, which can cause excessive creosote build-up and other problems. It’s much better to install a traditional open/close damper and learn how to use it properly. Personally, I wouldn’t have a wood stove without a traditional flue damper installed.


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## laynes69 (Sep 25, 2011)

Ive had good and bad thoughts about barometric dampers on wood units. They are used with gasification boilers and work well. We also use one for our furnace which is EPA certified. I tried a manual damper and results were okay but not great. Most woodfurnaces have some sort of automatic control via thermostat. If that draft isn't regulated correctly and that damper opens for a period of time, a overdraft can occur. That's where a stove is different, where the draft is controlled manually. A barometric damper will increase deposits in a chimney if the unit does not burn off the gasses. Also a draft thats too low can cause poor burning conditions. It's been said from a professional in the field that the sudden rush of air into a barometric damper increases it's velocity so the gasses exit the chimney quicker than without. That I'm not sure about, but that's what I've read. A barometric damper should be set according to the manufacturer of the unit. I don't like the fact they cool the flue gasses, but if your running an insulated chimney or liner that's the correct size then it's less of a problem. There's no chance of building creosote if the unit is burning correctly.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 26, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> A barometric damper is used to control the draft in an appliance exhaust system. It is installed in the flue pipe between the appliance and the chimney. As chimney draft strength increases the damper opens to allow fresh air in to the flue, thereby reducing the draft strength at the appliance. Normally a barometric damper is adjusted via some sort of weight/counter weight system, using some sort of gauge at the appliance. The idea is to have constant, non-varying draft strength at the appliance.
> 
> Barometric dampers should never be used with gas fired appliances that use a “hooded” type exhaust system, such as LP and natural gas furnaces and water heater. Almost all oil fired furnaces use a barometric damper… by controlling the draft it also controls the air intake to the fire box… the barometric damper is used to set the proper and most efficient burn rate to an oil fired furnace.
> 
> In my pinion a barometric damper should never be used with a wood stove. The fresh air entering the flue cools the flue gases, which can cause excessive creosote build-up and other problems. It’s much better to install a traditional open/close damper and learn how to use it properly. Personally, I wouldn’t have a wood stove without a traditional flue damper installed.



I couldn't have said it any better. Although with oil furnaces there is an air adjustment on an oil burner for setting the CO...zero to trace smoke is typically the range. Flue gas temps will always correlate to draft speeds...ie the faster the draft the hotter the temps will be.

Although a BDR is a way of getting more heat into the home...the user must also take some responsibility in moisture contents in their wood.
Flue diameters and insulation levels also come into play here. When a BDR is installed it is code to have make up air brought into the room that the furnace is operating in. Here you do not just want to open a window and flood the room with cold air. A FAK should be installed with a trap.

As always the manual should be followed for installation and operation. I know that I can speak as a manufacture. We have testing done and in that testing the lab follows the manual. Anytime an operator deviates from the manual there can be a different outcome on how the furnace produces heat. Normally it is a negative experience.


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## vwboomer (Sep 26, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> In my pinion a barometric damper should never be used with a wood stove. The fresh air entering the flue cools the flue gases, which can cause excessive creosote build-up and other problems. It’s much better to install a traditional open/close damper and learn how to use it properly. Personally, I wouldn’t have a wood stove without a traditional flue damper installed.


 
I ran one season with out a BD, and one season with. The season with gave me more consistent burning times (still crappy on a Hotblast tho).
I hesitated to install one for the reason you listed - introducing cold air into the flue and creosote buildup. Not even an issue. I can still keep my flue temps between 350-450 and after a full season of burning (lighting multiple fires a day) I got about a gallon of buildup out of the liner last week. 
A fair bit of the wood was less than perfectly seasoned to boot.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 26, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> In my pinion a barometric damper should never be used with a wood stove. The fresh air entering the flue cools the flue gases, which can cause excessive creosote build-up and other problems. It’s much better to install a traditional open/close damper and learn how to use it properly. Personally, I wouldn’t have a wood stove without a traditional flue damper installed.



Excellent response except for the wood stove part. If you have an old 'air tight' or EPA exempt stove a cast iron damper is fine. However, an EPA certified wood stove is so finely tuned you may cause more harm than good. We as a MFG do not recommend a cast iron damper at all in an EPA wood stove. 

Only if you have a serious overdraft problem would we recommend a barometric damper.

If you are burning good dry wood on an EPA wood furnace and you have a baro you should not worry about creosote since there will be hardly any smoke in the chimney to cause creosote.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 26, 2011)

Fyrebug said:


> Excellent response except for the wood stove part. If you have an old 'air tight' or EPA exempt stove a cast iron damper is fine. However, an EPA certified wood stove is so finely tuned you may cause more harm than good. We as a MFG do not recommend a cast iron damper at all in an EPA wood stove.
> 
> Only if you have a serious overdraft problem would we recommend a barometric damper.
> 
> If you are burning good dry wood on an EPA wood furnace and you have a baro you should not worry about creosote since there will be hardly any smoke in the chimney to cause creosote.


I do like what you said except for the EPA wood furnace...that's false advertising or misleading...there is no EPA tests or protocols for wood furnaces in the US....there is for stoves. EPA 40/60 subpart AAA.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 26, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> I do like what you said except for the EPA wood furnace...that's false advertising or misleading...there is no EPA tests or protocols for wood furnaces in the US....there is for stoves. EPA 40/60 subpart AAA.


 
Good grief Keith... I think we must have had this conversation 4 times now....

You can have your furnace EPA certified *voluntarily* and if you pass then you are legally free to affix the EPA Certified logo on your unit and literature. 

If this wasnt true we would get a nasty letter to remove EPA from our website. I guarantee we have had our furnace certified by EPA and we hold the certification papers to prove it.

Wood and wood-electric combination furnaces : Caddy - E.P.A. wood or wood-electric combination furnace

View attachment 200651


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm not done investigating this but I was pointed to this by the EPA...
The wood-burning appliances that are "qualified" under the EPA's Voluntary Programs are not "certified" per EPA's Wood Heater New Source Performance Standard. Contact your state or local air quality agency for clarification on the type of wood-burning appliances, if any, that may legally be installed in your area.


....so as I was saying...the Caddy is not EPA Certified.
I'll be waiting for responses to see what else is available for more information from the EPA.


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## laynes69 (Sep 26, 2011)

This is from the EPA's website. Look under PSG and you will find the furnace. 

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

These are all stoves and furnaces that are currently in compliance with the EPA.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 26, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> I'm not done investigating this but I was pointed to this by the EPA...
> The wood-burning appliances that are "qualified" under the EPA's Voluntary Programs are not "certified" per EPA's Wood Heater New Source Performance Standard. Contact your state or local air quality agency for clarification on the type of wood-burning appliances, if any, that may legally be installed in your area.
> 
> 
> ...



I think we’re splitting hair here. The play on word is ‘qualified’, ‘certified’ & ‘approved’

Let me rephrase it then...

*Has the PSG Caddy been tested to EPA Method 28?* Yup “This model line is certified as meeting the emissions limits in 40 C.F.R. part 60, section 60.532 (B) per EPA methods 28 and 5G-3, February 1988.”

*Did we pass those tests?* Also yes... Average emissions rate: 6.56 g/hr Average heating efficiency: 76%

*Was it certified by an independent body?* Absolutely

*Do we have ‘certification’ paper work to prove this?* Of course!

*Has it also been tested to CSA B415.1 which is likely to become the benchmark for EPA for Biomass central heaters?* Totally!

*Were we given the green light to use EPA & CSA corporate logos?* Completely

*Could you call Mr. Wood at EPA and get a copy of EPA appliances listing?* see laynes69 response above. 

Trying to claim EPA for wood furnaces is not a good thing would fly in the face of millions of consumers who have seen the advantages & benefits of EPA wood burning stoves over the past 20 years. Such consumers are looking forward to similar advantages with their wood furnaces.

I think my friend, your approach to this is disingenuous. It seems this stand is to divert attention to mask a certain lack of performance. Indeed, a quick perusal of your own web site and manuals are quite un-revealing. While there are claims of ‘clean-burning’ and ‘efficiency’ you cannot find a single efficiency rating not to mention emissions are nowhere to be found. My understanding is most if not all your wood burning furnaces are vented on 8” chimney – another indication efficiency performance might not be up to snuff.

Rather than putting down competitors (Kuuma & PSG in particular) as a sales technique you may want to focus on future proofing your product offering for your customer base. It is also always good to mention your brand benefits (sell direct to consumer, financing plan, good service, solid product & good warranty). Doing so will let your customers know you have a professional approach to selling. 

All the best!


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## Whitespider (Sep 26, 2011)

Holy Crap! I'm just thankful I don't have anything EPA certified...


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## Fyrebug (Sep 27, 2011)

Keith, is this the sound of crickets I hear?


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 27, 2011)

Fyrebug said:


> Keith, is this the sound of crickets I hear?


 
1st off the standard 40/60 subpart AAA was designed for stoves.Furnaces were exempted from these tests. You know you have small fireboxes like stoves and so you went to test your furnace with stove testing protocols.

Being a Canadian co....you had to test to B415.1 to be allowed in Canada and to meet CSA's standard.
You are right about the B415.1 protocols being accepted as the New Source Performance Standard here in the the US. EPA did not have any data to make their own mind up on what should be what.They looked to us the wood industry to support them with this new set of criteria.
In fact we have pushed to have the same standard so that both Canadian co.'s and U.S. co.'s can play on an even field and avoid double testing to 2 sets of criteria.

At the moment the NSPS is out for final review by the industry and will and by 2014 by such time all wood burning appliance...stove,furnaces,fireplaces and the like will have to comply with emmision levels.

Now although emmisions and efficiency have commonality there is still no way to say that if the emmisions are proper as per NSPS doesn not mean that efficiencies are high.
You can have a clean burn and you can make all of the btu's available,but it the unit is unable to transfer heat through the heat exchangers the heat has to go somewhere....up the flue.High stack temps will be evident in this case.

You can surmize that is a wood burner is burning off the smoke from the top of a fire....and that the firebox is loaded with the thickest,densest brick made and that the heat exchanger surface area is triple of a regular conventional furnace and have only 300-450 flue gas temps that that unit is pretty efficient.
Yukons are all that....I in fact have seen testing in the old conventional way of taking flue gases/co against temperatures and have witnessed a fuel like Bio Bricks achieve 91%.


As a small co. we are not going to drop the hundred thousand dollars on a test we do not know will stand and then respend that money again on a different test. We have not been required to test as of yet and truely think the government is over reaching like the Canadians are famous for.

We already know that after 40 years we have dropped customers wood consumption in half from their old wood burners and in some cases by 2/3rds. We also have customers that buy our furnaces because the others just won't give them the kind of burn times they need including Caddy.
When I hear the manufacture put the blame on the customer as Caddy did with a new customer we just made after he made several call and complied with all directions as per the manufacture I know we have a great line of furnaces. 
I also know there are 2 sides to every story and some customers are not as truthful as they should be ,but year after year and customer after customer all saying the same thing...pretty soon you get to the point that if it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck and flys like a duck it is typically a duck.

In the past and in the future I will call out false claims. To say a heater is EPA certified when it is not and then to back track and try to put the onus on me is pretty much like a bunch of car salesmen marketing their used cars. It is no wonder salesmen get a bad rap for lying.

Caddy is not EPA certified....to say it is false advertising.
Also...crickets...really...Yukon's are the best there is in the market. We have a tradition here that is family orientated. Our owner has a saying.....if you have integrity nothing else matters...if you do not have any...nothing else matters.

To end..I am passionate about the furnaces we build and for my 15 years worth of customers I have educated prior to the sale. How many do you see online complaining I mislead them?????
None is the answer...

Crickets...great blue gill bait!


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## ktlm (Sep 27, 2011)

There are people on here looking for answers to questions on safe and proper woodburning.
The bickering is extremely irritating to the point that I would hesitate to ask a wood furnace question. It is great to see Americans who are passionate about their work but it needs to be done in the workplace. Not trying to control anything, just being honest.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 27, 2011)

ktlm said:


> There are people on here looking for answers to questions on safe and proper woodburning.
> The bickering is extremely irritating to the point that I would hesitate to ask a wood furnace question. It is great to see Americans who are passionate about their work but it needs to be done in the workplace. Not trying to control anything, just being honest.



Sorry about that. Not sure how to handle it though, when you have one party stating something is 'not so' despite all the evidence to the contrary.

But you are right. Better to let things lie low and provide useful info for the users.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 27, 2011)

Sorry if you feel stating fact is bickering and upon further investigation.

As per the EPA's John Dupree who is the wood heater program team leader.
He says that yes in fact the Caddy was tested to meet a stove or room heater criteria.
However for PSG to market the Caddy as a furnace creates an issue and is not what the EPA allows.

John is investigating and he will report back to me. He did thank me for bringing up this issue.

As to talking about safe and proper wood burning...I'm all for that....and just as I've called out those that advise unsafe practices in burning or installations I'll also tell the truth on other wood burning issues...


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## vwboomer (Sep 27, 2011)

ktlm said:


> There are people on here looking for answers to questions on safe and proper woodburning.
> The bickering is extremely irritating to the point that I would hesitate to ask a wood furnace question. It is great to see Americans who are passionate about their work but it needs to be done in the workplace. Not trying to control anything, just being honest.


 
I agree. Many threads have been shat upon by this back n forth stuff. That said, I wish I could afford/justify a Yukon or Caddy. Either would be better than what I'm running now, but way out of my price range and not practical. I tend to ignore the argument fluff.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 27, 2011)

vwboomer said:


> I agree. Many threads have been shat upon by this back n forth stuff. That said, I wish I could afford/justify a Yukon or Caddy. Either would be better than what I'm running now, but way out of my price range and not practical. I tend to ignore the argument fluff.



The truth is the truth and I do not see how you can let it fly weather it's about plastic ducting vs. metal or class A flues vs non approved flues code is code and is there for a reason.

As to burning wood to cutout the high price of heating with liquid fuel...I don't care what you burn or how much work is involved...if you can get to the point of putting some,most or all of that $$$ in your pocket than good for that person....what ever it takes.

You bet I'm here to show a guy how to go through less wood,less work to achieve that goal of being heating independent.
I also know that I've tried to help a guy out with what he has to get it to burn better...making no sale what so ever.
Hopefully my history here shows that.....but I'll also not back down from what is the truth and yes...that might not be of interest to you...may need to take the high road which is hard unless you just want to ignor those false comments.

In the end I'm trying to be of service...I hope it shines through more than not.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 27, 2011)

....crickets......


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## Felman (Sep 27, 2011)

Do all wood furnaces require a barometric damper?


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 27, 2011)

No they do not.
Some have them listed as options.
A bdr regulates the fire temps and in conjunction flue gas temps.
You can always call the maker of your wood burner to see what they suggest. A bdr is adjustable and can be set to different speeds that is tested with a manometer....water column and it is a negative number.

Some of the more efficient ones will have it. It is really hard to run a draft speed that is natural...around .08 inches of water column and not have a poor efficiency rating. There is just not enough heat exchanger surface area to pull the heats /btu's out fast enough...therefore that extra heat goes out the flue...waisted. Another issue of creating too much heat too fast is fire box wall temps. If the steel gets to around 1600 degrees fatigue or failure is common....hence shorter warranties when you see faster drafts in the manufactures manual. The burn times are also shorter because that fire is getting more combustion air burning the fuel faster.

I have a chart that shows the faster the draft speeds are the hotter the flue gases are.
The less the efficiency of that fuel is.


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