# barberchair



## Baz (Mar 10, 2007)

I had a tree barberchair today. It was @ 12" dbh, warty bark, light-colored yellow-green wood (hackberry, maybe), seemed healthy. Anyway, I thought barberchairing happened when a tree was badly cut. Does this mean I screwed up my cuts? My back cut was @ 1/2 " above the bottom of my face cut.


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## Husky137 (Mar 10, 2007)

Some species are more prone to barber chair because of wood grain structure, internal stresses (leaners) etc, especially more apt to happen when making a the back cut too slowly because of dull chain.

How do you know tree was healthy if not sure of tree type?


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## DonnyO (Mar 10, 2007)

Husky137 said:


> Some species are more prone to barber chair because of wood grain structure, internal stresses (leaners) etc, especially more apt to happen when making a the back cut too slowly because of dull chain.
> 
> How do you know tree was healthy if not sure of tree type?




HMMMMM........opcorn:


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## lawson's tree s (Mar 10, 2007)

you definitly want to be carefull was there any pressure on the tree?


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## Baz (Mar 11, 2007)

The tree had a lean of about 10 degrees in the direction I wanted it to fall. As far as the health of the tree, that was a guess- no dead branches, no rot. It was crowded at the base with two other trees.


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## Ianab (Mar 11, 2007)

> The tree had a lean of about 10 degrees in the direction I wanted it to fall.



That will be your reason...

When I'm cutting trees on an angle like that I use a bore cut and holding strap at the back. Cut your notch like normal, although it doesn't have to be as deep as usual. Then plunge cut into the centre of the tree, cut foward to form a hinge and back, leaving a strap of wood at the back. Remove the saw, get ready on your escape path, cut the holding wood from the back and get out of the way  

As your hinge is formed before the tree starts to fall you dont have the situation where you are racing to get the cut exactly right before it starts to move. 

Cheers

Ian


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## pbtree (Mar 11, 2007)

Ianab said:


> That will be your reason...
> 
> When I'm cutting trees on an angle like that I use a bore cut and holding strap at the back. Cut your notch like normal, although it doesn't have to be as deep as usual. Then plunge cut into the centre of the tree, cut foward to form a hinge and back, leaving a strap of wood at the back. Remove the saw, get ready on your escape path, cut the holding wood from the back and get out of the way
> 
> ...



What he said...


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## Husky137 (Mar 11, 2007)

Ianab said:


> That will be your reason...
> 
> When I'm cutting trees on an angle like that I use a bore cut and holding strap at the back. Cut your notch like normal, although it doesn't have to be as deep as usual. Then plunge cut into the centre of the tree, cut foward to form a hinge and back, leaving a strap of wood at the back. Remove the saw, get ready on your escape path, cut the holding wood from the back and get out of the way
> 
> ...



I'll agree with all of that and just add that with a sharp chain, that slight lean on a 12" tree he should have been able to blast through the back cut without a barber chair. But when in doubt bore it out.


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## cntrybo2 (Mar 11, 2007)

if you are going to start using the bore cut, PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE on smaller, easy, hazzard free trees (trees that if they fall wrong, they wont hurt anything). i have seen some people that are not familiar with the bore cut have really uneven hinges, cut the back strap too thin and it pop under tree weight. just a word to the wise, if its a new cut for you, make sure you practice it before you use it in a risky situation.


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## John Ellison (Mar 11, 2007)

Husky137 said:


> I'll agree with all of that and just add that with a sharp chain, that slight lean on a 12" tree he should have been able to blast through the back cut without a barber chair. But when in doubt bore it out.



I think you are right Husky137, When in doubt bore it out.

If you have any doubts about how fast your saw will cut, how sharp your chain really is, or doubts about the notch,hinge, or how you think the tree is going to react, then the bore and release method is probably the best bet.
On some trees it is the best way no matter what.

countrybo2 also makes a good point, bore cuts can also get you into trouble if you are not familiar with them.


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## smokechase II (Mar 11, 2007)

*Possibilities*

Suggest that the posts by Ianab, Husky137 and John Ellison are very appropriate.

Several items can be a factor in barber chairs:

Shallow and/or narrow face or no face at all,
Too deep a face on tree that is about ready to go,
Back cut not at correct height to face,
Not using either a “triangle” or the preferred plunge back-cut,
Face cut ‘matching up’ with a split in tree,
Driving Wedges too hard or unnecessary wedging,
Wind, 
A second tree leaning into the one that ’chairs,
Additional weight added up in a leaning tree,
Pulling a tree with a rope or cable too hard,
Improper hinge wood width,
Failing to nip corners or bore out center of hinge,
Not placing chain(s) with binder(s) on truly severe leaners, 
Defect in tree,
Dull chain or running out of gas in middle of back-cut.

Any chance you could get some photos?


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## smokechase II (Mar 11, 2007)

*more barber chair thoughts*

I cannot find anyone who has seen or heard that a hollow tree, (where cut), has ever barber chaired. There is the possibility that a center face bore may be just as important a tactical cut as boring the back-cut to set up the hinge. There have been posters here on AS that bored the back and still got a barber chair. While rare, this is worth mentioning.

In fact, you don't even have to make just one cut on a tree to get a chair. Just ask John Ellison about Alaska.

Barber chairs occur most often in heavy leaning green trees. Really pay attention to those local guys that make a point about a particular species being a problem.

All the Best


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## tawilson (Mar 11, 2007)

Is there a reason to stop with your borecut and finish from the backside? Any reason not to just keep on cutting through from the inside if you don't need to put in any wedges?


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## Ianab (Mar 11, 2007)

> Is there a reason to stop with your borecut and finish from the backside? Any reason not to just keep on cutting through from the inside if you don't need to put in any wedges?



Thats might be ok with small trees where you can just blast out through the back. But on bigger trees I like to leave a few inches of holding wood at the back, remove the saw, take a couple of steps back and cut the holding wood a few inches below the main cut. With the bigger trees chances are the holding wood will rip out with considerable force before you can cut right though it. Cutting well below your main cut reduces the chance of the sawing getting caught in the holding strap if it doesn't shear off cleanly. You dont want to be standing there fighting the tree for possesion of your saw as it goes over  

The leaners I'm cutting are usually 30-60" monterey cypress, overgrown shelter trees, on local farms. When you release them they go with a real crack and start falling fast, you want to be taking large steps in the opposite direction by then  

Cheers

Ian


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## cntrybo2 (Mar 12, 2007)

when i learned the plunge-cut technique, it was taught to me to not use the saw to cut the holding wood but to use my felling axe. this takes the chance of the saw getting hung up out of the equasion and its a heck of alot safer and easier running from a tree with an axe in your hand than a running saw. I like the idea and use it when i do perform such a cutting technique. Keep in mind, i was taught technical sawing in wildland fire situations not on tree jobs.


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## smokechase II (Mar 12, 2007)

*backstrap*

The axe thing might have merit occasionally.
Axes are quiet and easier to discard. Some safety there also.
Then again you'll be hanging around the stump getting it cut longer....

One thought on however you complete a plunge cut is to not have your strap above a potential root pull.
Could come up and trip or smack a fella alongside the head and knock some sense into him.


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## smokechase II (Mar 12, 2007)

*video of barber chair prevention*

On the West Coast, usually all the boring of the back cut is for barber chair prevention. Not much boring otherwise.

Here is a Youtube video of where a green tree is getting a lot of pressure from another tree. This cutter, who probably put tree one into tree two, uses a bore to be safe. Quick escape and you can feel that he is taking this seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsdm7Y4l5bs


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## Fumbler (Mar 12, 2007)

cntrybo2 said:


> when i learned the plunge-cut technique, it was taught to me to not use the saw to cut the holding wood but to use my felling axe. this takes the chance of the saw getting hung up out of the equasion and its a heck of alot safer and easier running from a tree with an axe in your hand than a running saw. I like the idea and use it when i do perform such a cutting technique. Keep in mind, i was taught technical sawing in wildland fire situations not on tree jobs.



I've had some prior chainsaw training, but I just finished S-212 (Wildland chainsaw use) and everything I've learned about plunge cutting has been consistent.

If you plunge cut then you need to keep some felling wedges with you.
After you make the plunge cut then lightly tap in a wedge on each side of the tree. Don't hammer it in because you might break the holding wood.
The wedges will keep your bar from being pinched when you cut the holding wood.
Also, the wedges are already set in case the tree doesn't want to fall in your intended direction.


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## Ianab (Mar 12, 2007)

Here's one that should have been bored (in hindsight)
The guys seem to know what they are doing but cut the tree with a conventional notch and backcut. No one got hurt, but it's quite impressive :help: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9eMk5kCgCI&NR

Ian

P.S. Read the comment, seems they had a rope set in the tree and maybe tensioned it up to much. (Another potential cause of barberchairing)


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## tawilson (Mar 12, 2007)

In the first video, that guy barely touches the tree with the saw before it starts to go. Do you guys leave that little bit of holding wood, especially with another tree leaning up against it?


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## Woodie (Mar 12, 2007)

Thanks for the vid...watching things go wrong (particularly when they appeared to do things right) is a great way to learn. 

(I'm talking about this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9eMk5kCgCI&NR)

How 'bout some more edumacation out of this one...what would everyone hear have done differently (in hindsight, of course...with those 20/20 eyes we all have!)? Besides a bore cut, would a more open notch have worked? It seemed to begin splitting before the notch closed, so I don't know. 

By the way, if you want to see how a buncha chucklenuts do things REALLY wrong...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZJP8D2Dbk&NR

Check out the angle the pulling rope is at...apparently they skipped geometry class the day they were teaching "angles for idiots."

Thank God they didn't have a saw...


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## Ianab (Mar 12, 2007)

> Besides a bore cut, would a more open notch have worked? It seemed to begin splitting before the notch closed, so I don't know.



Nope, the problem was too much tension on the tree. In this case it was from a rope, but a lean will have the same effect. When you look at that tree the hinge never really hinged at all, the forces split the tree before the hinge could fold over, the notch never got to close up. A bad notch is a potential cause of barberchairing, but a good conventional notch shouldn't cause it unless there are other factor involved.

The video just popped up as 'related' when I watched the earlier one and it was such a good (or bad) example of a barberchair I though it was worth sharing.

Cheers

Ian


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## cntrybo2 (Mar 12, 2007)

By the way, if you want to see how a buncha chucklenuts do things REALLY wrong...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZJP8D2Dbk&NR

Check out the angle the pulling rope is at...apparently they skipped geometry class the day they were teaching "angles for idiots."

Thank God they didn't have a saw...


Did they use a saw or hold a beaver by the tail to get that face cut?!!! even for completely green guys they messed that drop up


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## Ianab (Mar 12, 2007)

> In the first video, that guy barely touches the tree with the saw before it starts to go. Do you guys leave that little bit of holding wood, especially with another tree leaning up against it?



I suspect there was a fair chunk of holding strap there, he just powered through it pretty fast and got the heck out of there 

You do have to sorta judge how much you can leave depending on the tree and how much tension you have to deal with. 



> After you make the plunge cut then lightly tap in a wedge on each side of the tree. Don't hammer it in because you might break the holding wood.



Wedges are good if you aren't SURE which way the tree is going. I usually only plunge on trees that are leaning, there is only one way they are going to fall, it's just a matter of cutting them safely. They AREN'T going to sit back on the saw. If you are plunge cutting a straight tree (which is perfectly OK) then some wedges are a good idea, same as wedges in a conventional backcut.

Cheers

Ian


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## Farmer Ferd (Mar 12, 2007)

did you notice how he dropped his running saw as he ran!


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## Fumbler (Mar 12, 2007)

Ianab said:


> Wedges are good if you aren't SURE which way the tree is going. I usually only plunge on trees that are leaning, there is only one way they are going to fall, it's just a matter of cutting them safely. They AREN'T going to sit back on the saw. If you are plunge cutting a straight tree (which is perfectly OK) then some wedges are a good idea, same as wedges in a conventional backcut.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ian



Yeah, if you're sure where the tree's going then you don't need wedges.
The reason I mention them is because the other poster said he likes to use an axe because a tree sitting back cannot pinch an axe.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 13, 2007)

My imagery of a Barber Chair; is the equal and opposite forces pushing back as a tree tries to move forward. The war in between these opposing forces giving a 'split decision'; when it overcomes the constitution of the spar. 

i think that if the wood is more prone to splintering, the constitution of the spar is easier to overcome. Internal cracks can give even more problems by spar already being weakened; and compounding this by giving separately moving 'plates' of wood in between the cracks that could bind against each other's movements. For, in separate 'plates' of wood bound together we have several compression and tension pairs; with these operating forces (compression and tension) internal (at the extremes of the individual 'plates'); rather than a singular pair of tension/compression external to the whole works.

i think a slow moving tree could build pressure in front of it's own self; to give enough opposing push back to overcome the constitution of the spar; and give this split decision of a Barber Chair. A faster moving 'throw', can throw through this position of stall more cleanly; with it's inertia, before the opposing force in face builds(?) i think.

In 'good wood'; that is not cracked, and not so stiff/brittle (of which temperature and dead/dryness are factors) it can resist the back pressure in the folding wood from it's own self; it can still BC from a full Dutch step maid by a cut crossing another in the face (most notably the horizontal cut crossing beyond the more vertical cut); across the full face. Noting that if the Dutch step is just to 1 side of the face (and no other blockage in path on un-Dutched side); the open/unDutched side offers possible relief of forces; instead of the scenario of opposing it's own self; by the back pressure against the tree moving forward against the early close of the Dutch step across the full face; giving full blockage/ opposing the force of the tree lunging forward.

i think such crossed cuts (especially on the horizontal cut by passing other cut in face); to Dutch the full face are 99.8% of the time unintentional. This gives very early close; while tree totters overhead; trying to figure out if to go with the forces from the release from the backcut or the push back in face from the crossed cut(s). The stiffer/ less compressing/ more compression force in wood face; the more this effect of the Dutching is amplified. Also, the deeper the crossing kerf, the more push back leverage it has. So, a slight bypass in soft wood might crush it's own Dutching, and be of little consequence. But same in stiffer wood; will not crush the Dutch and come closer to seizing or Barber Chairing. Then especially if deeper too. In tree/off ground; climbers use these forces to benefit on snap cut of horizontal limbs; but then the force direction is more committed away from you, and not teetering overhead.

We are out there as the ants against these mighty matchstix; trying to usher their forces to our liking. To do this we must court and dance with the mighty forces correctly, and be aware of them and their powers. Ants get smoosheded very easily in the land of the giants!


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## smokechase II (Mar 13, 2007)

*Barber Chair video*

It looks to me like the barber chair split starts before the face closes.
I'm pretty sure you can lay the blame on this one *mostly* on to too much pressure from the rope. (The insurance wedges are not driven, just tapped in correctly.)

No view of what holding wood was left. Could be issues there also.

A plunge cut back-cut would probably have almost eliminated the barber chair risk. Except if the cutter chose to leave too big a hinge combined with too shallow or too deep a face.

On the theory that even if you plunge but leave too much a hinge for the species that you are not familiar with or the wind comes up, _think about that center face bore_.

Break up the continuity of the hinge. Decrease to woods tendency to split.

Again, I have heard of triangle back-cuts and even plunge back-cuts having barber chairs. I've never heard of a barber chair with either a rotten center that connects with the face or a center face bore, (that is mimicking the prior).

The cutter does have a couple bad habits that need to be addressed. Doesn't look up even once and he is only comfortable with cutting from one side. (Note how the barber chair was tending to go toward his final cutting side. You need to be ambidextrous and quit walking around the tree.)

With their statement they do not appear to be aware of the risk of any form of pressure up high being a primary contributor to barber chair risk. It is very good that this is put out as an educational video. Could have used some shots on the rope set up and holding wood, but still worthwhile.


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## cntrybo2 (Mar 13, 2007)

here is a question regarding the video as well......

when you guys are taking a tree down and dropping the whole tree or the spar, Do you feel the need to work that stooped over and low to the ground? i can see if you are cutting timber for the mill but if you are cutting trees for take downs, what happend to proper work positioning, cutting waist high?


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## John Ellison (Mar 13, 2007)

:biggrinbounce2: Think of the b=chair potential if you over tension the pull line, early closing face, plunge cut only the backcut, leave too much hinge and then cut the holding strap. Explosion. I agree smokechaseII, that plunge cutting the guts of the hinge is one of the best b.c. avoidance techniques. Then even if you leave what would otherwise be too thick of a hinge on the outsides, it wont chair. Will not be a perty stump tho. And I have never seen a hollow tree barber chair, but have had them to leave a tall ragged hinge when they had a fair lean and were just backcut straight from the back. Like it was starting to barberchair but got wore out early because it didnt have any help.
If you are not used to pulling trees, having the line in the top 1/3 or 1/4 gives you so much leverage that it is easy to over tension if you dont watch the tree as you tension.
Spyders point about the dif in softwood and hardwood is a good one. You can make every mistake in the book on a small, short, limby softwood and get away with it. But a small, tall, slick softwood or hardwood is a different story.


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## smokechase II (Mar 14, 2007)

*opps*

cntrybo2:
I'm going to get chewed out for this, but on trees where a low cut is appropriate and safe, I prefer to be on *one* knee.
I can comfortably look up.
But escape, while better than bent over, is still poor. 
When bent over, note how much more of a target the trees limbs and tops have. A faller should ask hisself, "Self, is my spine important?"

Also would like to point out that if there is any possibility of a chair, a 90 degree right angle escape should be considered beforehand. Most instructional escape diagrams say 45 degrees and not to go directly behind the direction of fall nor at a right angle.
This 90 angle is also often a best option when falling either up or down the hill. Escaping on a contour is faster, (if you include staying upright), and gets the cutter further away from any rolling material.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 14, 2007)

i like a more standing up, ready to evacuate stance when felling. But, if feeling confident, and stump cut later looks tough etc.; will cut low to let the tree leverage take stump for me; rather than cut it later. A stump can be so low, balanced and heavy; that it becomes hard to tip/arc off the backcut.

i think that rotten center trees don't BarberChair because A) there is less pinch/bind in center front becasue no hinge directly behind it (center) forcing it to do so (pinch/bind); B) more likely to crush somewhat the center front; this gives some give/ not total resistance and C) can't have Dutching in this portion becuase of these factors. A plunge cut through center face (as shown somewhere in animations here) giving apporixmate same if backcut is lined up with plunge and reaches it.

i still like the 45 rearward retreat strategy model; because the hinge doesn't care which way the tree goes on it's narrow axis, to the front face; or it's equal/opposite rear. The BarberChair push back in face tends to push backwards, not to the side in the ones i've seen. The hinge resistance is along it's long/high leverage axis (to sides), not across it's narrow/ low leverage axis (front to back).


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## smokechase II (Mar 14, 2007)

*escape route*

*"The BarberChair push back in face tends to push backwards, not to the side in the ones i've seen."*

That's why escaping at 90 gegrees is better on a 'chair.
With the fulcrum being moved up and part of the butt log extending over the stump to the rear. It is especially dangerous to be anywhere close to that.
If the trees fulcrum is 10+ feet up and the butt slams down on your side, envision yourself being those few extra feet away from that whole romance by having made a right angle escape instead of a 45 and being closer.

Of course this is negated by a tree spinning and 'chairing all at once.
Smokechase, from Sisters OR that used to post here on AS saw that happen to a pro cutter once. 
No good general rules on escape for that circumstance.


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## Bermie (Mar 14, 2007)

I cut a heavy leaner last week...it must have had 30-35 degrees of lean, 14" DBH, heavy hardwood (casuarina) prob. 40' tall.
Conventional face cut, bore cut, average hinge, but I left a bit more holding wood in the back than normal. I was taught to cut the holding wood on a downward angle towards the backcut...this one went over before I'd cut all the way through, due to the very heavy lean, but it was controlled, no drama, no saw pinch, just a big thump as it hit the ground!
The Limeys call it a 'dogs tooth' cut, 'cause the bit left sticking up at the back resembles a dog fang...


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## John Ellison (Mar 14, 2007)

Yep, if the tree has a heavy side lean and it barberchairs it might be best to just run out in front of it.  Just kidding


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## MURPHYTREE (Mar 14, 2007)

*barber chair*

barber chair is usually/always climber error. Your saw has to be sharp and ready to rev on your back cut.There is no room for error, you have to be ready to gun it when its time for it to go.This happens alot in the north shore ma. when dealing with hickory and some times with a big section of maple.You have to be ready and cut fast when its time. You have to know your leans ,your trees, and wood type! My opinion


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## smokechase II (Mar 14, 2007)

*Dogs tooth*

Bernie:

I've only seen a couple dogs tooth stumps in the NW. That look like they were intentional by some one who could cut.

Mostly they are regarded here as an inexperienced cutter in the process of learning.

What is the purpose of angling down?
Honestly, we see it as just more cutting than necessary.


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## Bermie (Mar 15, 2007)

I do believe the downward release cut for the holding wood on a leaner is to prevent the potential for pinching.
Honestly all I can really say is this is how I was taught in the UK, where it's standard practise. 
That picture of yours shows a huge amount of holding wood behind the bore, mine would only be about a quarter of the diameter. (size of tree depending of course)
I don't see how it is any more cutting than releasing the holding wood with a horizontal cut...unless you are cutting out backward from your bore cut all the way?
Any UK people please feel free to comment...


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## Ianab (Mar 15, 2007)

> barber chair is usually/always climber error.



I agree



> Your saw has to be sharp and ready to rev on your back cut.There is no room for error, you have to be ready to gun it when its time for it to go.



Thats the problem using a conventional notch and back cut on a leaner - no room for error. Or getting 1/2 though the back cut and hitting a nail, or your saw cutting out.. or 10 other things that could go wrong  

The advantage with the bore cut and holding strap is that you set up the notch, hinge and holding strap in your own good time. You can walk around and look at the other side, trim a bit more, make sure no one has walked into the fall zone etc. Then one small simple cut lets the whole thing go in a controlled manner.



> I was taught to cut the holding wood on a downward angle towards the backcut...this one went over before I'd cut all the way through, due to the very heavy lean, but it was controlled, no drama, no saw pinch, just a big thump as it hit the ground!



Cant really argue, the cut worked safely and the tree fell where you wanted, but I was taught to make the release cut flat and a bit below the bore cut ( a few inches ). This reduces the chance of the saw being caught in the cut as the last bit of the strap usually tears and fractures before you can cut right through. If you get it just right you will be able to cut the strap to directly below the bore cut, and the couple of inches of long grain will then shear off cleanly and the tree starts to fall. The bigger trees I'm falling usually end up pulling some fibre when they release, but it's only in a small area and in the butt flare so I dont really loose any timber. I'd prefer to risk a bit of tearout and an untidy stump rather than barberchairing a 4 or 5ft log 

Cheers

Ian


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## smokechase II (Mar 15, 2007)

*Stump forensics*

Stump forensics:

I don't know what happened on the stump photos I posted. I just found them on a couple oaks near Woodburn Oregon.

The one closest to the camera appears to be a hens tooth gone wrong. Looks like the bore was too close to the face and the face wasn't well cut anyway. Then the Hens tooth release cut is too big, (as I understand it), and for some reason the tree wasn't ready to go and they kept cutting even below the plunge.
This photo may well be a good case for "whatever way you cut, do it right."

Then again, I can't say for sure without calling in a TSI. (*T*imber *S*tump *I*nvestigator)

I don't see how the angled cut would have any less potential to be pinched than a flat one. Given that they were cutting the same amount of wood. Actually, an angled cut to accomplish the same amount of release is going to have more surface area contact to go in the same distance. Thereby increasing the potential friction.
Remember, a tree setting back will still close the kerf (at a given distance from the hinge), whether it’s angled or flat, the same amount.

The exception to this is if you've very steeply angled the dogs tooth it could have a bit of flexibility that you wouldn't have in a flat or 45 degree angle. Making it a little easier to talk out of a pinch. This is gonna vary with species, live dead etc.

You got any photos or diagrams?


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 15, 2007)

Ianab said:


> I suspect there was a fair chunk of holding strap there, he just powered through it pretty fast and got the heck out of there
> 
> You do have to sorta judge how much you can leave depending on the tree and how much tension you have to deal with.



At a demo I attended, a Husky Rep demonstrated the 80/10/10 rule for the notch, hinge and back strap. Cut the notch so the width is about 80% of the diameter, make your borecut and leave a hinge about 10% of the diameter and a backstrap about 10% of the diameter. For a 20" tree, the notch would be about 16" wide and about 4" deep, Hinge about 2" wide and a 2" strap. The bored area would be about 12" wide.
Of course, there are many variables that must be considered as stated in this thread.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 16, 2007)

On a 12" tree, is there really enough room for a notch, bore cut, and trigger? Bar + chain on my 460 is about 41/4". Doesn't leave much room for error. Maybe I just need to use a smaller saw. I really like the idea of boring out the center on small diameter trees.

Another quick word from personal (bad) experience, once again I share my idiocy. In my earlier days I lost the hood on a beautiful 1958 Fergusen tractor when I parked it too close to the high side of a 30" red oak with a strong lean. (1.) I blasted through the hinge in my over-zealous attempt to prevent barber chair (2.) there was a trumpet vine high in the canopy that I did not see, under tension, tieing the top of the red oak to a previously felled tree on the other side of the tractor. That @$#*&% red oak did a 180 degree pirouette that would have made a ballerina proud. Overconfidence kills.


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## Ianab (Mar 16, 2007)

> At a demo I attended, a Husky Rep demonstrated the 80/10/10 rule ........ For a 20" tree, the notch would be about 16" wide and about 4" deep, Hinge about 2" wide and a 2" strap.



Thats sounds about right. I have found you can use a shallower notch than normal, it really only has to be deep enough to form a decent hinge, so 1/5 of the tree diameter would be fine.

So with smaller trees (12") you can still use it, just make a real shallow notch (2" deep?) leaving enough space to do your bore cut.

Cheers

Ian


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 16, 2007)

Ianab said:


> Thats sounds about right. I have found you can use a shallower notch than normal, it really only has to be deep enough to form a decent hinge, so 1/5 of the tree diameter would be fine.
> 
> So with smaller trees (12") you can still use it, just make a real shallow notch (2" deep?) leaving enough space to do your bore cut.
> 
> ...



Right on Ian. Following the 80/10/10 formula, on a 12" tree the notch would only be about 1 1/2" deep (9.6" wide), hinge and strap would be about 1 1/4" thick. That leaves about 8" for the bore. Definitely requires some good saw control, but doable. You would want a nicely balanced saw for this in order to get both cuts level and at the same plane. As was stated earlier, I would practice on some non-threatening trees first until one is confident.


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## smokechase II (Mar 16, 2007)

*80 10 10*

On the West Coast we seldom see that 80% face rule of thumb. Honestly, I've never heard of it outside of the internet or open face felling materials.

With larger timber we emphasize face depth. The general rule here is 1/3rd in. 

Granted, this gets fairly complex with all the possibilities, but our main focus is getting more of the weight of the tree on the side of the hinge that is in the direction of fall. Making it easier to wedge. Overall, with smaller timber or dead (lighter) trees this may not be as important.
On this coast, with steeper ground and more remote settings, fallers are better with wedges and jacks. They can't depend on a piece of equipment pushing over a tree.

Mostly, a cutter has to understand the potential need for either thought process and be ready to adjust face depth. The big thing I'd suggest is to make sure and label any of these *GENERAL* rules.

A classic example is dropping a short but very large diameter 'staub' or 'short stubby'. When confronted with a broken off green tree that is say; 20 feet tall and 5 plus feet in diameter. The other general rules are thrown out and the face depth is 50% in. Resulting in a hinge that is 100% the width of the tree. 
Put this on a sliding scale with trees that are similar but part way back to a tall straight guy and you can see how adjusting hinge depth depending on your situation can be beneficial.

All the Best


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 16, 2007)

smokechase II said:


> On the West Coast we seldom see that 80% face rule of thumb. Honestly, I've never heard of it outside of the internet or open face felling materials.
> 
> With larger timber we emphasize face depth. The general rule here is 1/3rd in.
> 
> ...



Smokechase - makes sense. Does the size of those big NW trees reduce the potential for barberchairs?


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 16, 2007)

smokechase II said:


> On the West Coast we seldom see that 80% face rule of thumb. Honestly, I've never heard of it outside of the internet or open face felling materials.
> 
> With larger timber we emphasize face depth. The general rule here is 1/3rd in.
> 
> ...



Good post Smokechase - makes sense. Does the size of those big NW trees reduce the potential for barberchairs?


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## Baz (Mar 16, 2007)

Thanks, all. I'm still learning that I don't even know how much I don't know. This is a great forum.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 16, 2007)

Great discussion! 

My rules of thumb are similar. But mainly i watch 2 things specifically to determine exactly how hard to apply these standards.

1) is to undermine beyond the Center of Gravity well enough to a)want to fall in chosen direction + b)flex the fiber of hinge to do so Also asses how high CG is from proposed hinge pivot height.

2)Bring the back of the back of the hinge to the approximate widest part of the tree; especially on the control/anti-lean side for best leverage against sidelean or side pushes during fall (from other obstacles in path).

No. 1 is generally preset for you; lean away from hinge; hopefully fairly in falling direction. But covers the short/stubby extreme example by SmokeChaser too. If you can't bring the hinge pivot back far enough to accomplish this; you must either push or pull.

No. 2 Takes into consideration sidelean control needs and non-perfectly round stumps, rotted areas etc. i always face tree; then inspect face for decay and dryness. Decay is bad/bad. Dry/dead/ frozen wood can still push; but is less helpful for tension/pull; being less elastic. Both push and pull is needed in hinge/face machine. So i assess where tension and compression wood is needed; and if the face shows that type of condition possible in those specific positions. And dead and decayed are 2 different categories.

i believe in push (mostly by wedge) and pull (mostly by rope) to force a stronger hinge; just relieve these added forces when tree starts to move. Forces at FirstFolding(i define this time period as done when the tree will travel on it's own) determine hinge strength; more force forces hinge stronger. Hinge strength just being a reflection of the forces on it at this point in time; so we 'fake it out', to 'think' it has a bigger tree to steer! Additional forces after FirstFolding tax the previously set strength of the hinge; so essentially weaken it; so we relieve them. This is one thing a wedge works for us automatically; when the tree lifts, the wedge stops pushing. 

i think the slanted BackCut is a no-no; in that the 'back stop' is weaker in case of sit back. If the tree sits back against a slanted back stop; the immense leveraged force goes more across the column of the stump/ rather than served down into the strength of the column. Also, there is weaker backstop to push off with wedge if needed for the same reason; and the wedge is pushing more straight ahead to bring tree straight ahead. But in a straight backcut with wedge pounded in, the wedge lifts, to serve forward. So the former is more of a linear applied force, whereby the latter is more leveraged arc; taking a longer route to achieve same result/direction factor. Another consideration in wedging is that the farther back the hinge; the less leveraged distance wedge has from it's lift position to the pivot of the hinge.

i might have slanted the backcut on one of them trees; to not cut into another tree behind it. and still have hinge leverage/height where i wanted; if it was safer like that.

In good wood/up to the task, i prefer to let the hinge steer mostly; and apply all additional / hinge strength increasing forces(rope and wedge) to the gunned face/ center. If pulling with line or pushing with wedge to steer; then we are unloading the hinge from it's task some. i'd rather force the hinge stronger, then taper the hinge to steer; so that my exerted additional forces go through another multiplier (hinge); instead of unloading hinge from imbalance, and replacing it with my effort; allow the mechanics to work for you.

Works great in-tree too; especially if you kerf dutch the sidelean or push from side(not full face) to work in concert with the extra pull of tapered hinge. Then, we have a pull and push in same direction and rotational, with counter pull/pushes dropped out of the equation (when kerf closes and tapered doesn't).


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 16, 2007)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Great discussion!
> 
> My rules of thumb are similar. But mainly i watch 2 things specifically to determine exactly how hard to apply these standards.
> 
> ...




Thanks TreeSpyder, that's what I was trying to say! LOLOL Great details!


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## smokechase II (Mar 17, 2007)

*worse*

Buzz:

A tree that weighs more or is taller would impart more force to contribute to a barber chair than a one with less force. I.e., one with less weight/height.

Generally, taller or bigger diameter timber should have more barber chair potential. 

Then again, you could be cutting a 40"+ hardwood that has a significant lean, or a 10" Ash (Ash gets mentioned a lot in barber chair discussions), with the same basic M.O. and need to be very cautious.

The height/weight things will be overshadowed by certain species characteristics. If local pro cutters say that Ash, Doug Fir, ________ and ________ are the worst. Pay attention and be ready to say no to any tree you're not comfortable with or think thinner hinge or center face bore etc.


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 17, 2007)

smokechase II said:


> Buzz:
> 
> A tree that weighs more or is taller would impart more force to contribute to a barber chair than a one with less force. I.e., one with less weight/height.
> 
> ...



Thanks Smoke. Yep - Ash was my first and only barber chair - before I found this site. About a 24" dbh with about 20 deg lean. What about wrapping the tree with several loops of heavy chain or cable and draw it tight with a chain binder? Of course, the size of the tree would limit this appication. Maybe a hazard with the chain breaking?


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## Streyken (Mar 17, 2007)

buzz sawyer said:


> What about wrapping the tree with several loops of heavy chain or cable and draw it tight with a chain binder?



buzz sawyer, this does work well under certain conditions and it definitely eases ones apprehension, at least for me. I'll use a few wraps of bull rope when falling the top out of a heavy leaner, especially alder and maple, just be prepared for a bit of a ride; if possible it's better to climb higher. I also use this on the butt stick - when bucking down large alder with a heavy lean I'll often throw a few wraps of old 1/2" climbing rope below my cut. I leave enough slack to slide it down easily, but tight enough so that if the wood splits it won't fill the space between me and the tree. Seen a few people get pinned this way, on the worst one I had to climb up, wrap the top and help loosen his lanyard. He had some good bruises, but could have suffocated.

As for working on the ground - great stuff already posted.


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## SRT-Tech (Mar 17, 2007)

So SmokeChase.....how long did it take ya to saw thru those trees with that swiss army knif (sawblade) :hmm3grin2orange:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 17, 2007)

i've used load webbing strap tie downs for binding. But really shouldn't drag them out hard from under load(or any other sling, cable etc.; but i figure non-metals more sensitive to this issue) so need to plot where they will fall and have strategy for them not to be pinched where you have to pull hard to get them out. Get them extra tight by tightening as far as possible, then try to hold tension best ya can and pull slack out, then retighten. Because like a come along or winch (non-capstan); the fuller the drum the less leverage you have(as opposed to capstans, rope Maasdam, chain hoist etc. as leveraged power source). Can also tap a wedge under the strap for more tension; starting at some imperfection offering clearance to start.

Especially on longitudinal cracks, deformed, hollow, codoms and trees that splinter easy etc. Sometimes 1 above the hinge on crack etc. and 1 below. In tree on small stuff; i'll roundturn lanyard around under hinge and lean back to give firming compression to the spar. Also as ballast to loading forces of rigging; sometimes dropping back to impact force as ballast in timing to load hitting line on opposite side of spar. The choke on load and the load pulling down on choke under hinge can also firm both some. So much so as to crush some hollow loads, so will give a series of half hitches on load to catch pieces and spread out forces. A similar gauntlet of slings and krab sets will catch pieces, but not firm wood, nor spread out forces except at lead and anchor positions.

Fine discussion; i'm not the picture police or nothing; but i'd like to suggest posting smaller pix, especially embedded in the post. This makes them easier to view and faster to download. A few pictures or large ones embedded in a post makes it hard on especially our brethren on dial-ups.

In Microsoft Freebie PowerToys is a lil'widget that is for picture resizing. It is great; it puts a picture resize button on the right click menu of a picture. Even if several are selected(doing a group resize). This can also be done by other utilities or manually in an editor, but the Power Toys resizer on the click menu is really handy and quick.

This is same pic, that doesn't stretch page and 1/4 the file size, made in a few seconds. Resizer will do any size, but this is one of the defaults. On other forums stretching the page with a wide picture makes the whole thread wider, and so you have to chase text on each post on that page with horizontal scrollbar.


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## smokechase II (Mar 18, 2007)

*speedy knife*

SRT-Tech:

Is there a possibilty that cutting with the knife, using a little better technique, might have gone faster?
Just kidding.

Once again; TSI (Timber Stump Investigators) needs to inspect these.


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## FSburt (Mar 19, 2007)

*What about falling a leaner off its lean*

Anybody heard of this before. falling a leaner 20 to 45 degrees off the head lean to slow the trees descent rate so you can saw and keep up with the cut. I figured most hand fallers using crosscuts rarely fell trees with the lean because they could not cut fast enough to keep up with the trees rate of falling so they threw their trees off the the side of the lean. You will still have to compensate for the side lean but worth some consideration if you have the room. Also there was a comment about barberchairs being the fallers fault most of the time I disagree because i have had it happen to me during a falling of a smaller red fir 14" that had no lean and no visible cracks. This was the only time I have ever had a surprise barberchair like that and I can only figure it was because of an hidden internal defect (Ring Shake) that I could not have known about because it was internal. The only time i have seen a large 6ft Doug fir chair was because the cutter could not cut up the back cut fast enough and got scared and ran away when the backcut was still only half way competed so this large tree just ripped up vertically and fell off the side away from the escape route but shook up the cutter . This one was definitely operator error but the first one was not.


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## Ianab (Mar 19, 2007)

No, I haven't heard of that technique, but yes I can see there is some logic too it. Falling at an angle to the lean with a tapered hinge would probably reduce the barberchair potential

As for the 'fallers fault', well it was the way you cut the tree. OK, there was no way you could have known about the internal shake. If you had X-ray vision you might have cut the tree different. But yes, sometimes things happen that we cant reasonably predict  



> got scared and ran away when the backcut was still only half way competed so this large tree just ripped up vertically and fell off the side


Sometimes running away ISN'T a dumb idea  

Cheers

Ian


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## smokechase II (Mar 19, 2007)

*My In-Laws*

Loggers as In-laws. There you go.

Their barber chair avoidance technique for many years was to have a sharp saw. If you ran away you were not just weak, you were causing the barber chair. {The Yoder Mill opened around 110 years ago in Yoder Oregon and it is still run by Yoder boys.} When that tree is popping, wanting to 'chair, keep cutting hard and you'll be fine. (They're from a serious Mennonite background, so no cussing with only occasional exceptions currently). Outside of the cross-cut era, they never had a problem with this and believe it or not, power cutting was common in the West.

For heavens sake, don't set this as your standard method. This is really foolish compared to plunge cutting the back.

However, there is the thought that if you are cutting and your tree starts to split and you feel those surprise pops. You might want to cut rather than run. 
Just a thought.

Photo of a face center bore near the stumps from above.


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## MonkeyDo (Mar 19, 2007)

> Anybody heard of this before. falling a leaner 20 to 45 degrees off the head lean to slow the trees descent rate so you can saw and keep up with the cut.


Yes I have heard/ been taught this technique to help mitigate the chance of a barber. You probably wouldn't want to try to turn a real heavy leaner 45 degrees off it's lean. What you're doing with this technique is taking some of the tension off of the sap wood and putting it into the hinge. You have to consider how you will have to adjust the hinge to keep the hinge from ripping off the stump(thicker). With this technique as any other I always advise a cutter to get rid of the sap wood before continuing with the back cut(triangle cut). Here in the west I don't hardly ever see a boring back cut.


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## Peter White (Jan 16, 2015)

Here is a good video on leaners. Pretty sure no notch was cut on first example.

Bottom line, it explains the forces involved, and why the bore cut is the right way to go on leaners to avoid the barber chair. 

I'd recommend you stop with that, but if you are really curious and want to follow this into a treatise on backleaners, there's a couple more that are good; pretty technical and maybe a little slow, but good. Mostly it just shows what forces and challenges are required, and why professional help and expensive gear is needed for backleaners.


This one shows the amount of gear you would need to buy to get properly set up to deal with a backleaner if you are only interested inp a takedown from the ground...


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

Ianab said:


> That will be your reason...
> 
> When I'm cutting trees on an angle like that I use a bore cut and holding strap at the back. Cut your notch like normal, although it doesn't have to be as deep as usual. Then plunge cut into the centre of the tree, cut foward to form a hinge and back, leaving a strap of wood at the back. Remove the saw, get ready on your escape path, cut the holding wood from the back and get out of the way
> 
> ...


Its basically the compression vs tension wood, if you bore cut, you sever where tension becomes compression, and eliminate the barber chair. End of story.


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## Pelorus (Feb 25, 2015)

Doesn't tension become compression in the neutral plane?
Bore cutting shifts that neutral plane. It doesn't eliminate it.


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## acer-kid (Feb 25, 2015)

Pelorus said:


> Doesn't tension become compression in the neutral plane?
> Bore cutting shifts that neutral plane. It doesn't eliminate it.


i disagree. I do believe it eliminates a barberchair. Ive never seen a barberchair after a bore cut. Ever. Maybe you have an example that im not aware of?


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## Pelorus (Feb 25, 2015)

I don't know what we are disagreeing about.
Elimininating the majority of the tension wood with a bore cut shifts the neutral plane (compression meets tension) to the hinge wood. 
Could a bore cut result in a barberchair if an excessively thick hinge were left? I dunno.


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## acer-kid (Feb 25, 2015)

Pelorus said:


> I don't know what we are disagreeing about.
> Elimininating the majority of the tension wood with a bore cut shifts the neutral plane (compression meets tension) to the hinge wood.
> Could a bore cut result in a barberchair if an excessively thick hinge were left? I dunno.


Maybe. As could a poorly cut face notch. With a "step" in the flush cut. Ya dig?


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## nk14zp (Feb 26, 2015)

Pelorus said:


> I don't know what we are disagreeing about.
> Elimininating the majority of the tension wood with a bore cut shifts the neutral plane (compression meets tension) to the hinge wood.
> Could a bore cut result in a barberchair if an excessively thick hinge were left? I dunno.


If you left to wide of a hinge then you did it wrong.


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## acer-kid (Feb 26, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> If you left to wide of a hinge then you did it wrong.


I think Pelorus (" s' " ? )comment was more of hypothetical statement.

A lad watches a youtube video on bore cutting,-> "i can do that. No problem." resulting in poor pratice. As is my example of the bad face. (heavy learner, TOP heavy)

My original statement was more assuming that the practice was implemented properly, thereby, in my opinion, eliminating a barberchair.

Two seperate set of circumstances, me thinks.


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## Pelorus (Feb 26, 2015)

Yeah, it was hypothetical. 
shallow notch closing up tight before the hingewood could break might also cause sadness with a heavy leaner.


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