# Tree Morphogenesis book 1 - free deownload - seeking feedback



## Tree Morphogene (Aug 17, 2013)

Hi

I have just released a book that should be of interest to any Arborists who have an interest in morphology, branch architecture, tree dynamics, genetics, evolution and ultimately sympathetic tree care.

It is written for tree owners, so plain English throughout but it contains new and innovative research that you will not have seen anywhere else. The title - Tree Morphogenesis book 1 Reduction Via Thinning Theory, available from Amazon.

From the 26th of this month it will be available as a free download (and a few days after that). If you don't have a Kindle yourself, Amazon have a "Kindle for PC" app that is also free.

I am seeking feedback from people like myself, that is, people who have experienced wind while climbing the far reaches of trees because with you it will resonate most strongly.

I'm ready to answer any questions.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 17, 2013)

Are you a sponsor here?
Jeff


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 17, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> Hi
> 
> I have just released a book that should be of interest to any Arborists who have an interest in morphology, branch architecture, tree dynamics, genetics, evolution and ultimately sympathetic tree care.
> 
> ...



Well, if it's feedback you want, its feedback you'll get. We ain't shy, and the best tree guys in the world hang out right here. Now, if you're really looking for feedback from the pros, go ahead and post a link to your book here, and we'll tear it apart and help ya put it back together again. If you're looking to sell your book, you might want to introduce yourself, get to know us, and who knows, maybe learn something. Jeff


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## Pelorus (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm committed to reading An Illustrated Guide to Pruning, 3rd ed. by Gilman, and it is gonna take awhile. Thanks anyway, sympathetic tree care Morpho dude.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 18, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I'm committed to reading An Illustrated Guide to Pruning, 3rd ed. by Gilman, and it is gonna take awhile. Thanks anyway, sympathetic tree care Morpho dude.



I have not read Ed Gilman's book but I do expect his and mine to be rather different. First difference, mine will take you about 2 hours to read.

To Jeff, no I'm not a sponsor

To Jolly Logger, read it and rip matey. As you will read, I believe my fiercest critic to be the person from whom I have most to learn. You will learn some more about me by browsing Tree Morphogenesis, Arbornauts.com : Tree Morphogenesis, RVT, Reduction Via Thinning, Simulated Wind Pruning, Tree advice & tree consultancy from David Lloyd-Jones & associates - TreeAdvice.com, craftwood.co.uk - craft wood Resources and Information. This website is for sale! and not forgetting Energised Alert by Live Alert Ltd.. 

You can even preview the first few chapters of the book on Amazon to get a feel for it "Tree Morphogenesis book 1 Reduction Via Thinning Theory"http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tree-Morphogenesis-Reduction-Thinning-ebook/dp/B00BR1Y43U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376814733&sr=8-1&keywords=reduction+via+thinning

My name is David and I look forward to getting to know you all.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 18, 2013)

Howdy, hey check it out, you need to contact Darin (site owner) about sponsorship, if not, we will have to delete any of your post that have links to your book. Sounds very interesting, I would like to take a gander at it. Normally we dump them right away until they have worked something out with Darin. I will leave this up for now, but make sure you contact him. Once you have done that, then we can check it out, if it is good stuff, we will even help ya push it out there.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 18, 2013)

Actually, the fact that he didn't even proofread his own post doesn't give me much hope...


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## Pelorus (Aug 18, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> it contains new and innovative research that you will not have seen anywhere else...I'm ready to answer any questions.



I got a question or two: Has your research been peer reviewed? By whom?
What are your professional credentials and qualifications? Are there other articles / research papers you have had published?


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 18, 2013)

:spam:
Jeff


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 18, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I got a question or two: Has your research been peer reviewed? By whom?
> What are your professional credentials and qualifications? Are there other articles / research papers you have had published?



I have already submitted a post with lots of professional qualifications, lots of evidence of my own "skin in the game" so to speak, but as that post is delayed in some moderation process, I should wait for that to clear or clarify exactly what I said wrong before trying again.

That brings me to "Peer Review".


I'm presuming here that this site is populated primarily by working Arborists (as it does seem to me, to be).

If so, ... You people are my Peers.

I am asking You to review it.


I am offering a free copy (from next Monday) to whoever of you would like to read it.

If after reading it you don't like it, tell me. 


Fair enough ?


Last thought for now. What if you like it ?


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## Philbert (Aug 18, 2013)

Thanks for letting us preview it for free. Can I download this to my computer (Mac) if I don't have a Kindle?

Philbert


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## 2treeornot2tree (Aug 18, 2013)

Who publishes a book without anyone verifying your research. Post your qualifications againn so we can all see.


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## Mitchell (Aug 18, 2013)

*pdf or word*

do you have a pdf or word version you can email?


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## Gologit (Aug 18, 2013)

opcorn:


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 18, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Thanks for letting us preview it for free. Can I download this to my computer (Mac) if I don't have a Kindle?
> 
> Philbert




They do.

Amazon have lots of free Kindle apps supporting lots of devices and even different versions of windows.


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## Philbert (Aug 18, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Who publishes a book without anyone verifying your research. Post your qualifications againn so we can all see.



Part of the Amazon.com listing (assume that it is also part of the book?):



> About the Author
> 
> Biography
> 
> ...



Philbert


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 18, 2013)

This is the url of the page where all of the different free Kindle e-reader apps can be found...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000425503&ref=kcp_ipad_mkt_lnd


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## Gologit (Aug 18, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> This is the url of the page where all of the different free Kindle e-reader apps can be found...
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000425503&ref=kcp_ipad_mkt_lnd



Are you yourself offering, or intending to offer at a future time, anything for sale on this forum? If so you must become a sponsor. Please advise.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 18, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> I'm presuming here that this site is populated primarily by working Arborists (as it does seem to me, to be).



removalists mostly. 


On Amazon now. Downloading... "Simulated Wind Pruning For Trees" Looks very interesting.

:msp_thumbup:


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## Pelorus (Aug 18, 2013)

I viewed a You-Tube vid by the OP which showed some foliage being removed from an oak tree via one-handed chain saw technique. 
Wondering if he could provide some documented scientific link that a 5 - 20% canopy reduction will result in his Morphovictim withstanding a wind event better than a non-reduced identical tree.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 18, 2013)

20% ? wow
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Aug 18, 2013)

Possible alternative title: "The Art of Subtle Reductions for Fun and $$$"
Or, "Crown Lifting for Dummies"


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## Mitchell (Aug 19, 2013)

*tree guys and science*



Pelorus said:


> I viewed a You-Tube vid by the OP which showed some foliage being removed from an oak tree via one-handed chain saw technique.
> Wondering if he could provide some documented scientific link that a 5 - 20% canopy reduction will result in his Morphovictim withstanding a wind event better than a non-reduced identical tree.



I haven't read the book or don't know the subject matter; but ill give it a fair shake.

The key note speaker at the ISA Toronto event this year basically said we don't know squat about trees, particularly where bio mechanics are concerned. Some of the other lectures were examining the role of canopy reductions in reducing failures. The preliminary findings were suggesting benefit from pruning to preventing failure. Pretty hard and expensive to prove that empirically. In my own practice I antidotally find tip reduction (not the popular knocking every third branch off thinning) helps tall west cost trees with stand wind events. Although as the lectures on resonance studies this year suggested, proving those thoughts scientifically is a gigantic undertaking. 

Im thinking if a fellow wants to share his experiences and thoughts its a good thing. I found the PHDs at the conference were not in tune with working arborists (which is to be expected; they spend there days in classrooms we spend it in trees). Will be better off if more of us try to quantify what we experience.


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## imagineero (Aug 19, 2013)

Maybe I'm missing something. I watched the video but it just looked like a standard crown lift and thin to me, and nothing special at that. It also wasn't really all that subtle either. Removals are our bread and butter, but we also do long term strategic weight reduction mostly on council/public trees and some in private gardens. It's very subtle work and most people wouldn't be able to tell that anything was done. 20% would be a sever reduction but none of it would be localised; it's spread out around the tree. 

I'll give your book a read through if/when it comes available and give you some feedback if you're interested. You'll find arboristsite to be a place full of tough love.

Shaun


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 19, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Maybe I'm missing something. I watched the video but it just looked like a standard crown lift and thin to me, and nothing special at that. It also wasn't really all that subtle either. Removals are our bread and butter, but we also do long term strategic weight reduction mostly on council/public trees and some in private gardens. It's very subtle work and most people wouldn't be able to tell that anything was done. 20% would be a sever reduction but none of it would be localised; it's spread out around the tree.
> 
> I'll give your book a read through if/when it comes available and give you some feedback if you're interested. You'll find arboristsite to be a place full of tough love.
> 
> Shaun



Hi Shaun

As you will read, I consider my fiercest critic to be the person from whom I have most to learn.

In fact that is a business ethic that has served me well.

So if tough love is all you got for me, bring it on. I have laid out 28 years of insights, investigation, experiment and more importantly, coming directly from all that, I bring solutions.

Those solutions, are based on how I believe trees have evolved, how they have been designed by that evolution and how that evolution has designed them to deal with fluctuating climatic conditions and periodic extreme winds in a passive dynamic way.

Given that the climate seems to be changing so that we can expect more extreme weather extremes, I have to suggest that understanding the conceptual model described in my book is essential for Arborists everywhere.

I am really looking forward to discussing all of that in detail with you all, once you have read my book.

Last thing. bear in mind I am a contractor. I have been training these techniques and selling them to customers for 28 years. Implicit in that is how I explain trees and this whole strategy to tree owners in just a few minutes. Give people understanding and they never forget you, and they will usually ask for your opinion and quote, that is why I still provide the service. 

It is free next week and I can't change that, but I would love to get stuck in earlier, so until then I just dropped the price to $4.99 (may take sthe rest of the day to change in case any of you want to get a preview, read it and then we can get on with discussions with everything out on the table.

There is a video of us doing an RVT and crown lift to an Oak on another thread. The rationale for that job is written in the commentary under that video on Youtube and if you watch it I urge you to make sure that you watch that last 30 seconds because that is where the still images are stacked for you to compare them. Just do a Google search for Tree Morphogenesis and you will find that video on the first page.

Like you said, keep an open mind and simply decide to give me 2 hours of your valuable time, to read my book. I won't waste your time.


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## imagineero (Aug 19, 2013)

I find thinning to be a hard sell. Customers generally want trimming for a specific purpose; building clearance, powerline clearance, crown lifting, to gain a view etc. Few people value their trees enough to invest in maintenance pruning with a view to long term retention. Trees are intelligent enough that they generally sort themselves out anyhow, trees in high wind areas grow in such a way as to be more resistant to wind loads. You can't prepare every tree for that 100 year storm, that's just part of nature. Trees in the urban environment are a completely artificial construct anyhow. In my opinion the vast majority of urban trees will get just as much life without maintenance pruning as those who have none. There are plenty of exceptions though.

Some specific species of trees will gain an extended life from thinning, but it's very species dependant and location dependant. I find it's mostly of benefit to trees growing in isolation, and in particular to trees that have insufficient taper in their scaffold and tend to grow foliage mostly or only at the tips. Branches that have foliage distributed broadly along their length and exhibit taper tend to have a lot more flex, and their weight decreases in proportion to their length. If they're in a high wind/high risk area they can benefit from evenly distributed weight reduction which also has the added benefit of reducing wind sail, but it's still debatable about whether you increase the overall life of the tree when you factor in the reduction in foliage equating to reduced ability to produce energy and all the wounds you've opened up on the tree. That reduction in vigor on the one hand seems to extend tree life because of reduced weight, on the other hand to decrease it because of reduced energy for growing reaction wood, on the other hand to increase it because it will probably slow down the growth rate of the tree, on the other hand decrease it because of possibly increasing the chances for insects/disease etc... There are far too many things to consider. Even if the question was as simple as "how can I generally extend the life of a tree?" it wouldn't be an easy one to answer and would be very species/location dependent. The real question isn't even that simple though in my opinion. 

On many older/heritage trees we get called in too late. At that point you're just delaying the inevitable. The best time for corrective pruning is much much earlier. Or even before that, choosing good specimens to plant. 

It's not possible to draw absolute conclusions in my opinion, there haven't been enough long term studies done that think in 'tree time'. 

Shaun


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## imagineero (Aug 19, 2013)

I guess what I should have said instead of "tough love" is "openly suspicious and occasionally hostile" ;-) 

There's plenty of knowledge on here... Plenty of guys with ISA/related arb quals, who've read all the books and been to the courses. Plenty of guys also who have a lifetime worth of experience and a lot of tree sense. Lots of the talk is just general ribbing and shop banter, but we have some involved discussion also. It's all in the archives if you're interested. Most of the guys are going to judge you on what you present, which seems fair enough, and what you've presented is a couple posts saying "hey, look at my book, I want peer review". It's obviously too late to get peer review now that the book is published. The time for that would have been during writing/editing. Which makes your post seem more like a marketing ploy than anything else, especially when it's more like "hey, look at my book which will be free for a couple days next week but you can buy it now". Until your name ranks up along side Shigo, Dent, Beranek, Mattheck, Matheny etc, people aren't going to buy it, or even read it for free. 

I read your website, which just sounded like so much fluff, and watched your video which seemed amateur to me. If I had to sum it up in 21 words or less, it would be "I like to cut the part of the tree which sticks out the most. That's how I make the tree smaller". Don't get me wrong, it was a fair pruning job, just nothing really noteworthy. That certainly doesn't sound anywhere near as fancy as "Reduction Via Thinning", especially if you capitalise each word as though they had special hidden meaning. It wasn't really what I'd call reduction via thinning anyhow; thinning generally doesn't imply reduction in size, only in density. Your technique would more suitably be termed "reduction via pruning" and since there's no way I know of to reduce a tree without pruning it, then you could get rid of some redundancy there and just call it reduction, or pruning, with normal lowercase letters. Not as sexy, I know, but it's just pruning. 

I read the first couple chapters of your book on amazon, just what was available in the preview It certainly didn't inspire me to buy the book, which according your your own writings you ought to be giving away anyhow. As written in your own book description;

_"Trees gave the author a career which enabled him to raise his family for which he feels profoundly indebted to trees. This book is one way that he is starting to repay that debt."_

But something more than that bothers me. Having read the first chapter, and part of the second, I can't help but feel it's just a bunch of drivel. A mixture of scientology, amway, and "how to win friends and influence people". I probably should have expected that, by your own admission;

_"Some of my theories are not "scientifically" tested, or at least, not rigorously and independently tested. They are just my own beliefs and are based almost entirely on my own seat of the pants observations which fuelled my further research and testing in the field."_

I look forward to reading the rest of it though.

Shaun


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 19, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I guess what I should have said instead of "tough love" is "openly suspicious and occasionally hostile" ;-)
> 
> I look forward to reading the rest of it though.
> 
> Shaun




Hi Shaun

I take all of your criticism to heart but until you have read the book, lets put that aside.

All I ask is that you keep an open mind and see if I am able to surprise you at all.

The technicalities start in Chapter 2 through 9, 10 summarises then five case histories and an epilogue.


You guys were always going to be the test.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 19, 2013)

imagineero said:


> there haven't been enough long term studies done that think in 'tree time'.
> 
> Shaun




I hope that you might reconsider this assertion when you have read my book.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 20, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I viewed a You-Tube vid by the OP which showed some foliage being removed from an oak tree via one-handed chain saw technique.
> Wondering if he could provide some documented scientific link that a 5 - 20% canopy reduction will result in his Morphovictim withstanding a wind event better than a non-reduced identical tree.



Well I hope that I have included details of why I decided on such limits that will make common sense to you but to be honest, I don't think they constitute scientific proofs.

In fact, although I discuss this issue from a number of different perspectives, mathematical, physiological and experiential, they are probably more accurately described as hypotheses requiring further experimentation.

There are a number of such threads in this work and I hope to attract other Arborists and researchers to help me to complete these investigations and thereby complete the Tree Morphogenesis Project (to the satisfaction of the scientific community). I know how I want to test these techniques and I have identified the likely location and form of the measurable signals that will lead to a proof.

In fact, this project is made for crowd sourcing....


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## imagineero (Aug 20, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> There are a number of such threads in this work and I hope to attract other Arborists and researchers to help me to complete these investigations and thereby complete the Tree Morphogenesis Project (to the satisfaction of the scientific community). I know how I want to test these techniques and I have identified the likely location and form of the measurable signals that will lead to a proof.




Care to elaborate?


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 20, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Care to elaborate?



Yes definately, but only once you have read it.


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## imagineero (Aug 20, 2013)

If you're serious about getting peer review and wanting arborists to help you with testing your theories and gathering data, then you ought to make a copy of your work available in PDF format to those you'd like to get review from. None of this 'wait till next week and get it free for 2 days but you'll have to install a reader on your machine' etc etc nonsense.

Shaun


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 20, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I guess what I should have said instead of "tough love" is "openly suspicious and occasionally hostile" ;-)
> 
> There's plenty of knowledge on here... Plenty of guys with ISA/related arb quals, who've read all the books and been to the courses. Plenty of guys also who have a lifetime worth of experience and a lot of tree sense. Lots of the talk is just general ribbing and shop banter, but we have some involved discussion also. It's all in the archives if you're interested. Most of the guys are going to judge you on what you present, which seems fair enough, and what you've presented is a couple posts saying "hey, look at my book, I want peer review". It's obviously too late to get peer review now that the book is published. The time for that would have been during writing/editing. Which makes your post seem more like a marketing ploy than anything else, especially when it's more like "hey, look at my book which will be free for a couple days next week but you can buy it now". Until your name ranks up along side Shigo, Dent, Beranek, Mattheck, Matheny etc, people aren't going to buy it, or even read it for free.
> 
> ...



I quoted this so I could like it again, but I cant, so I wont, but I still like it.......again


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## imagineero (Aug 20, 2013)

There are so many complex moral issues confronting arborists today.

Should I be allowed to 'like' my own post? If not, is it wrong for me to 'like' a post which is just a quote of my own post? If not, is it acceptable to work out reciprocal deals with other AS members to quote each other's posts so we can 'like' ourselves? 

Shaun


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## Pelorus (Aug 20, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> Well I hope that I have included details of why I decided on such limits that will make common sense to you but to be honest, I don't think they constitute scientific proofs.
> 
> In fact, although I discuss this issue from a number of different perspectives, mathematical, physiological and experiential, they are probably more accurately described as hypotheses requiring further experimentation.
> 
> ...



I refuse to prescribe unnecessary work, or work of an uncertain or dubious value to clients who invest their trust and finances in my company. I would likewise not expect a gullible public to fund experimental work on their trees at their expense.
Wondering if you have posted your theories / videos on other discussion boards, and what the general impression has been from other "working arborists" (I have not noticed anything posted elsewhere).


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## treesmith (Aug 21, 2013)

Shaun hit the nail, PDF book download for AS members and you'll get all the feedback you could ever want. Personally, I like the idea and want to read it for myself.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 21, 2013)

treesmith said:


> Shaun hit the nail, PDF book download for AS members and you'll get all the feedback you could ever want. Personally, I like the idea and want to read it for myself.



Shaun is pretty good with a hammer... generally nails it...


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## imagineero (Aug 21, 2013)

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail


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## treesmith (Aug 22, 2013)

Ok, just read the free bit and first impression is that it's a bit fluffy. Spends a lot of time telling that it's going to tell us what it is that it will tell us and how it will tell us but without actually telling us, very similar to that last sentance in fact. It's the intro so I can understand filler and a small book never seems as valuable as an enormous tome but, it can be annoying to read and harder to understand. Haven't read the rest yet as it is still chargeable but will as soon as possible. As I said before, I really like the idea, could be a very good thing. I love trees and the more understanding we have, then all the better for the trees and us as well.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 22, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Who publishes a book without anyone verifying your research. Post your qualifications againn so we can all see.



Hi, missed this. best place to start would be my Linkedin page

That has all of my current projects, my professional history, qualifications and some of the range of enterprises I am involved in.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 22, 2013)

opcorn: What is your ISA Cert.#.?
Jeff :msp_confused:


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## Pelorus (Aug 22, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> Hi, missed this. best place to start would be my Linkedin page
> 
> That has all of my current projects, my professional history, qualifications and some of the range of enterprises I am involved in.



I'm undecided if you are the real deal or not, in spite of your ISA Arb Cert. (and yes, I checked, lol). Have you asked yourself: "what happens if in 5 or 10 years some of these theories turn out to be at best innocuous, or at worst, injurious"? You are disseminating information that you believe is correct, primarily on the basis of your own observations. So did the originators of practices such as installing drain tubes to treat wetwood, or cavity filling, or topping trees. 

Even if you are sincere, I think you are at least somewhat misguided in asking for our thoughts on barn door construction while the horse is running amuck.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 23, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Have you asked yourself: "what happens if in 5 or 10 years some of these theories turn out to be at best innocuous, or at worst, injurious"? You are disseminating information that you believe is correct, primarily on the basis of your own observations. .



I am simply trying to describe what I believe to be the most sensitive and sympathetic for of tree care that I can imagine, based on my long term study of how tree's do it.

That is, the best I can imagine right now.

"State of the art" is a contemporary saying because as you rightly say, in 10 years it will have evolved further. 

I am confident however that some of the aspects of the conceptual model I am introducing in this book, will still be part of the evolved conceptual model in 10 years time and once you have read it on Monday, you will have an informed opinion on that likelyhood too.

And in answer to the next question, "do I think this is state of the art"? Yes, I do.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 23, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> opcorn: What is your ISA Cert.#.?
> Jeff :msp_confused:



UI-0372a


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## Pelorus (Aug 23, 2013)

Using buzz words like "sympathetic" and "sensitive" to describe chain saw surgical limb amputations / reductions seems a tad disingenuous. Like a dentist asking you "are you ok" as he mangles you. In the case of trees requiring specific indicators of help to keep them intact (things such as cabling, bracing, props) I think the literature on the subject is well documented, thorough. Perhaps even unequivocal, aside from static vs dynamic debates.
It is a different matter entirely, IMO, to look at a mature tree and say that you can improve it's longevity / appearance by making it conform to your aesthetic viewpoint. Especially on the (sole?) basis of having made observations over the years of what a tree should look like!


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 23, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> It is a different matter entirely, IMO, to look at a mature tree and say that you can improve it's longevity / appearance by making it conform to your aesthetic viewpoint. Especially on the (sole?) basis of having made observations over the years of what a tree should look like!



I make no such claims.

I can reduce a tree sympathetically by using the same strategy that trees have evolved. 

That co-incidentally results in a subtly smaller and still naturalistic appearance.

In the book I hope that i make the case that what looks right, is right and the reason that is so reliable is in Chapter 9.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 23, 2013)

I downloaded the book free off Amazon _Prime_ several days ago. Thank you. Its an interesting read. The bit about frequency oscillations and also the authors opinions about cabling/bracing. 

Goethe, Raimbault et al, defined stages of tree morphology long ago. How does RVT differ from Neville Fays retrenchment pruning? 

We are trained to prune back to what Collin Bashford dubs "areas of vitality" with several caveats, one being a maximum critical diameter (Gilman). Does RVT take into account the length of time internal anatomy is exposed?


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 23, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> I make no such claims.
> 
> I can reduce a tree sympathetically by using the same strategy that trees have evolved.
> 
> ...



I think it is interesting how trees survived without out us arborists for all these years!!!!
Jeff :cool2:


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 23, 2013)

Ed Roland said:


> I downloaded the book free off Amazon _Prime_ several days ago. Thank you. Its an interesting read. The bit about frequency oscillations and also the authors opinions about cabling/bracing.
> 
> Morphogene, Goethe and Raimbault defined stages of tree morphology long ago. How does RVT differ from Neville Fays retrenchment pruning?
> 
> We are trained to prune back to what Collin Bashford dubs "areas of vitality" with several caveats, one being a maximum critical diameter (Gilman). Does RVT take into account the length of time internal anatomy is exposed?



Hi Ed

Thank you for reading and I am relieved that you found it interesting.

You forget Leonardo 500 years ago. There have been many notional models for tree anatomy over the years.

You may notice that i have published links on my website to works by or related to Alan Turing and his The Chemical basis For Morphogenesis where he references Goethe and postulates the triggers for Morphogenesis in plants, well I think that my work closely describes some of the factors that precipitate the orchestrated succession of growth phase changes, effectively the triggers for Morphogenesis, in most (but not all) trees.

If that process has been described and explained before, in plain language or academic papers, I haven''t seen it

Because they are passive reactive processes, the triggers are not internalised, they are in fact just reactions that happen as a result of predictable but somewhat random, external stimuli. 

I'm really not sure what retrenchment pruning is so i can't comment.

I do think I know what Reduction Via Thinning is and how to reliably define it and now having read my book, so do you. 

So, do you think that it closely describes the growth strategy that most trees have evolved in common, and can Reduction Via Thinning be accurately described as Simulated Wind Pruning?



"Does RVT take into account the length of time internal anatomy is exposed?"

Yes, but your question has me wondering where it is mentioned. 

Where it might seem at odds is where pruning can include some larger wounds in lower growth phase changes but there is a decision making process that an Arborist can employ so as to work out in a tree, with creative interactions with their groundsman what they need to do to effect the subtle reduction of the specified % by a mixture of means and potentially, making cuts to a range of different growth phase changes. 

That is the purest form but RVT can be limited to work in narrow and defined bands of growth phase changes and of course if those narrow specified band of growth phase changes are close to the outer edges of the tree, the resulting wounds might be more numersous (to achieve the desired % RVT with reasonable accuracy) but each would be smaller and so will occlude in less time.

Here's the real issue though, aversion to wounds, and decay and a myriad of other things that can happen and might notionally hurt and even eventually condemn a tree. The reason I am not necessarily always choosing the smallest wounds, is because branch architecture is variable and an Arborists options need also to be somewhat variable but still need to be clearly defined with boundaries and communicated.

Then of course Trees with defects can be managed into the ground by this method, reducing transferred wind loads and changing the mathematical likelyhood of total failure even for relatively light % RVT because the tree seems to get a measurable benefit from it the practical meaning of which is that the defect will have structural loadings reduced and in the process the subject tree gains the appearance and character and appeal of more advanced age. 

Were you at all intrigued by the suggestions implicit if the law of diminishing returns really does apply to trees resonance frequency of their oscillations in wind and how they seem to change respective to the relative % RVT applied? And I hold my hand up here, this needs more testing in the field, by Arborists.....


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 23, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think it is interesting how trees survived without out us arborists for all these years!!!!
> Jeff :cool2:



Jeff please don't get me wrong, I'm not fiercely advocating RVT.

I am suggesting that it is a better way to define and arrange for tree care to be done, and is more sensitive to how trees are designed, than other techniques prescribed to manage trees where some form of size management has been identified as desirable.

I'm with you, we changed the context when our population boomed and then the legal blame/claim pressures lean directly on trees with defects, through Arborists who are asked to risk their Professional Indemnity by hazarding a guess. Such guesses will always err on the cautious and trees will be removed or trimmed in various ways, all of which will reduce structural loadings.

If in doubt do nowt. 

Well, I hope that i have described the next best thing to nowt 

(nowt = "Cheshire" for "nothing")

You seem to be saying "Nowt's better than Nowt" and in an ideal world where tree care is concerned, I agree.

We aren't in an ideal world and the pressures on ancient trees are very real and pressing THROUGH US.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 23, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> Jeff please don't get me wrong, I'm not fiercely advocating RVT.
> 
> I am suggesting that it is a better way to define and arrange for tree care to be done, and is more sensitive to how trees are designed, than other techniques prescribed to manage trees where some form of size management has been identified as desirable.
> 
> ...



Haven't you heard?!
I am the bully here!! arg!!!!
Seriously tho, Will I get CEU's if I read it and how many CEU's will I get?
Are you suggesting that we stray from our credential's?
Obviously, I am not a bully.
Jeff


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 23, 2013)

*Thank god for google translatee e*

Lot's of big words in this post, so I set google translate to translate from the queen's english to texan. It spit out "Topping is bad. It is much better for the tree to make smaller cuts reducing and thinning the tree through proper pruning practices than to just hack away at the sum #####.

Just to check the translation I reversed it and typed in bull ####, and it spit out " bovine anally excreted fecal matter" so I think the translator's working.

I'm not saying you might not have some good points, but good lord buddy, simplify your message. It's honestly painful to read.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 23, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Lot's of big words in this post, so I set google translate to translate from the queen's english to texan.
> 
> I'm not saying you might not have some good points, but good lord buddy, simplify your message. It's honestly painful to read.



I hear Ya.

If you review after reading the book on Monday, it may make more sense. I hope so anyway. or as they say round here "There's nowt down fer you lad"!

Let me reassure you that the book is in plain English but if I get asked technical questions I will try to give whatever technical answers I have and unlike the book, I may get it right and communicate what i mean effectively, or not because when all is said and done, I'm still exploring the whole thing myself.

I.m a contractor and a pragmatist like you no doubt so it's all applied in the field real world solutions including what you translated even though it maybe didn't sound like it. Keep translating and I will try to explain as well as I am able!


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## imagineero (Aug 23, 2013)

Anybody remember that guy who used to use very controversial 'tree regeneration' techniques, think he was from the uk also? Wrote a book too. He 'regenerated' ok trees that were in very bad condition an slated to e removed by doing simulated wind pruning. The technique was cutting half way through major limbs, then tearing them off by pulling them down with a vehicle causing big tear outs. It was well documented and photographed. Can't remember the name


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## Pelorus (Aug 23, 2013)

The goldfish outgrows his bowl, so you get him a bigger bowl. The tree grows too large for it's allotted place in the cookie cutter neighbourhood (or the pesky neighbours start complaining about it) so you morphosubdue it into an aesthetically pleasing smaller version. (Which will try it's damnedest to grow bigger again...I think I grasp the gist of this Morpho stuff now.


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## Pelorus (Aug 23, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Anybody remember that guy who used to use very controversial 'tree regeneration' techniques, think he was from the uk also? Wrote a book too. He 'regenerated' ok trees that were in very bad condition an slated to e removed by doing simulated wind pruning. The technique was cutting half way through major limbs, then tearing them off by pulling them down with a vehicle causing big tear outs. It was well documented and photographed. Can't remember the name



Quercus the Barbarian?


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## Pelorus (Aug 23, 2013)

"Natural Fracture Pruning Techniques and Coronet Cuts"
by Neville Fay

Takes morphozapping a tree to a different (but parallel) realm.
I think Neville is the Barbarian you were thinking about, Shaun.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 24, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> so you morphosubdue it into an aesthetically pleasing smaller version. (Which will try it's damnedest to grow bigger again...I think I grasp the gist of this Morpho stuff now.



Actually they DON't seem to try their damnedest to grow bigger!

At least, not for a few years and in that time the growth seems lateral and consolidating rather than expansive and exploratory.

That is perhaps evidence of the type of growth being modified by the action and the influence seems to persist. They are "Morphosubdued" as you wonderfully imagineered.

Conversely if I prune more than 25% RVT, I have noticed an epicormic response and the higher the relative % the more pronounced the epicormic response.

For that reason, as an alternative to pollarding, I have used RVT of over 40% as a less extreme alternative to re-pollarding, thinning the co-dominant leaders and by stressing the tree through the loss of leaf so that it has to sprout epicormics from the old pollard point, and therefore recycling it's own branches without ever removing all of the branches. Clients like that.

Ok, RVT as an alternative to pollarding is brutal butt still it is more aesthetically sensitive than pollarding.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 24, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Seriously tho, Will I get CEU's if I read it and how many CEU's will I get?
> Are you suggesting that we stray from our credential's?
> Jeff



Hi Jeff

You raise an interesting point. Recently I asked ISA to consider this book and ascribe CEU's to me for writing it. 

Fortunately I had attended enough events anyway so I didn't use if for this re-certification but I wondered two things. 

How many CEU's should I be able to claim for writing it? 

And how many CEU's should each reader be able to claim for reading it?

Stray from our credentials? No, but credentials have to remain relevant and up to the minute too. otherwise they become less relevant.


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## derwoodii (Aug 24, 2013)

I flipped though the thread and a few links. I canna say saw anything new or revealing its reduction pruning or just give it DTU "detail tidy up" what I'd call RVT. To the author nice to see your passionate about your trade bat on there lad, thou all them big words made my head spin:msp_confused: .

Any work upon any tree Primum non nocere is 1st point to considered after that your just shaping it for your client not the trees needs.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 24, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> Actually they DON't seem to try their damnedest to grow bigger!
> 
> At least, not for a few years and in that time the growth seems lateral and consolidating rather than expansive and exploratory.
> 
> ...



Ran that through good ole google translate. Pollarding came out as habitual topping. The gist of what I'm getting is that your thesis is that selective thinning and crown reduction is better for a tree than topping it. I hate to break it to you, but that isn't exactly earth shattering news. This is starting to remind me of a new diet book, where when you finish it you realize you should eat less and excercise more.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 24, 2013)

Crap, now what do I say for the next nine chapters.....


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## derwoodii (Aug 24, 2013)

The things i done to trees is beyond cruel. Spending 30 years hacking the heads of them for power lines clearance you'll soon see how poorly it harms them. Then in time begin to learn how by adapting your cuts and target points u also start to know differing tree species regrowth & wound response so you may start to minimize the impact.

Then when client ask to knock the top off or thin it out for light views hazard or whatever. I can achieve this keeping the better interest of the tree in mind


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## treeseer (Aug 24, 2013)

derwoodii said:


> The things i done to trees is beyond cruel. Spending 30 years hacking the heads of them for power lines clearance you'll soon see how poorly it harms them. Then in time begin to learn how by adapting your cuts and target points u also start to know differing tree species regrowth & wound response so you may start to minimize the impact.
> 
> Then when client ask to knock the top off or thin it out for light views hazard or whatever. I can achieve this keeping the better interest of the tree in mind



So we all try to make progress; better than yesterday is my goal. Attached are some stumblings along the way. I like David's approach; a good step along the way; little wheel turns by fire and rod, Big wheel turns by grace of God.


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## derwoodii (Aug 24, 2013)

Luved the article on pole pruners thanks for that TS wolf garten is my choice of these. Each week mine saves hundred in man hours $ climbing or even EWP use need a low limb is easy fixed from the side walk.


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## Boa07 (Aug 25, 2013)

> So we all try to make progress; better than yesterday is my goal. Attached are some stumblings along the way. I like David's approach; a good step along the way



Nice reminder of past published articles Guy, thanks.

Like you I was pleased to see David's approach in the videos on YouTube and I know many of the people I have worked with over the years take a very similar sensitive approach to their pruning jobs.

I would like to have read the book but when I tried to download it Amazon informed me copyright prevented me from buying it (I'm in NZ) hopefully this is just a glitch and I will be able to read the book soon to be able to form an opinion based on what David has written.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 25, 2013)

Boa07 said:


> I would like to have read the book but when I tried to download it Amazon informed me copyright prevented me from buying it (I'm in NZ) hopefully this is just a glitch and I will be able to read the book soon to be able to form an opinion based on what David has written.



Somebody related the same problem when they tried to download in Oz so to all you Antipodean Arborists, please accept my apology if you do have problems.

I will try to get to the bottom of this, but I am informed that if any of you use IP blockers (for downloads perhaps?), you can disguise your location so that they could not identify your location to block your download. 

Rest assured that I am desperate to get this in front of Arborists everywhere so if anybody else has any insights, please post them here.

If you are in NZ or OZ and you have problems downloading my book, email me and as I find a proper solution, I will let you know or I will get it to you some other way.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 25, 2013)

derwoodii said:


> The things i done to trees is beyond cruel. Spending 30 years hacking the heads of them for power lines clearance you'll soon see how poorly it harms them. Then in time begin to learn how by adapting your cuts and target points u also start to know differing tree species regrowth & wound response so you may start to minimize the impact.
> 
> Then when client ask to knock the top off or thin it out for light views hazard or whatever. I can achieve this keeping the better interest of the tree in mind



I share your experience in Utility Arboriculture (see Energised Alert by Live Alert Ltd.). 

It is clear from what you say that in spite of the brutality of the discipline implicit in that job, you have engaged and empathised with the trees in your care. It's hard not to isn't it.?

I have restrained from mentioning Utility Arb up to now because I suspect that debate will be rather involved, but I believe that even that form of tree management could be more sympathetically done by adapting some of the principles of RVT and once you have read it, I would very much like to find out if you saw anything that might influence you in that role?

I too have killed many thousands of trees. It was the profound guilt that I feel still, that motivated me to write this book and the fact that I owe those trees for everything good in my life.


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 25, 2013)

PC Access 
This is where things get silly. Amazon has a free Kindle for PC application to read kindle books on your PC. This is not accessible, but they do have Kindle for PC accessibility plug in. This works well, but you cannot download it in New Zealand. It is currently available in Australia, Canada, U.K. and U.S. You can download the Kindle for PC application in New Zealand, just not the accessible plug in. We have no idea why. Technically you could download it from overseas, or get someone to send you the file, but this could be in breach of your terms of service with Amazon. We haven’t had an answer from them.
The passage above is an excerpt from this webpage Part 2: Amazon & Kindle - RNZFB.org.nz


How to unblock the contents on Amazon’s Kindle?
Because of Amazon’s tracking system on your IP’s origin, the solution simply consists of switching it to an US one. A VPN is an ease-to-use application which allows you to connect to a VPN server which provides you an IP according to its country location.
Thus to unblock the Amazon’s Kindle contents, you just have to connect to an US server! However you also have to get an Amazon US account, so here is a way to proceed:
Create an account at the Amazon web store at amazon.com
Select the table ‘Manage your Kindle’ and then from the Country Settings choose United States.
Change your address to an address in the United States.
Register for the credit card details, your address don’t have to be an US one.
From Kindle outside US – How to unblock 2012 Amazon’s Kindle with a VPN service? | ST4RT-VPN Blog


So it looks like you should be able to download the Kindle for (your device) app and then download the book albeit with a bit of messing around.

Or ask your friend who downloads films etc because they will be up to speed with IP blockers, VPN (Virtual Private Networks), proxy servers and all sorts of such things that are as interesting to me as pushing pins into my eyes. OK slight overstatement there but you get my meaning...

Hey if anybody in NZ sorts it, please let others know exactly how you did it.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 25, 2013)

:msp_scared:
Jeff


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## derwoodii (Aug 25, 2013)

for southern hemisphere they need to turn the text upside down,, simple really


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## Tree Morphogene (Aug 28, 2013)

If any of you are still having problems downloading the specific Kindle app for your device or perhaps locating the url of your local Amazon outlet where you can get your free copy from or maybe you are wanting to hang back for the printed version that should be available in a few weeks, whatever the reasons if you haven't already downloaded the free e-book, consider this...

I sat down and read it myself on Monday. As I did, I imagined the many other Arborists would be doing the same around the world. I found a few details that need changing and that means yet another edit but what i wanted to mention here, is that I completely forgot the many other resources that are linked to from within the book as you read it.#

Reading it in an e-reader gives you the opportunity to open those resources in other browser windows before returning to the story. That to me is far more convenient than a traditional book.#

I have projected 2-3 hours to read the book but if you follow all of the links to the resources that are there to expand the learning opportunities, then I estimate that you could spend twice that amount of time or more, going off at interesting tangents to the story.

One more thing I would like you all to consider. 

Te Tree Morphogenesis Project might be an example of a way that you can attract and engage with your audience. 

So self publishing is definitely a business model that you should look at and understand. I would say this of course, but I don't believe you will find a better example of the genre than the book that I am trying to put in front of you.

You can download the book free for just a few more days.


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## treeseer (Aug 28, 2013)

derwoodii said:


> Luved the article on pole pruners thanks for that TS wolf garten is my choice of these. Each week mine saves hundred in man hours $ climbing or even EWP use need a low limb is easy fixed from the side walk.


Wolf Garten is da bomb. On most trees I work on, a pole clip is essential--even for Strasser and Chisholm-- to do the kind of pruning that David seems to generally describe.


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## treesmith (Sep 3, 2013)

I've been really busy recently, spring has kicked in and the days aren't long enough. I've tried settling into the book in the evening as I downloaded it with a kindle app on my phone. Trouble is I'm real tired in the evening and just can't face more than a page, it reads like a legal document which in itself isn't a problem but it's just no fun, it doesn't flow. I'm nowhere near the important bit yet Sorry but, you asked for feedback. I'll try again when I'm not so vacant


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## Tree Morphogene (Sep 6, 2013)

treesmith said:


> I've been really busy recently, spring has kicked in and the days aren't long enough. I've tried settling into the book in the evening as I downloaded it with a kindle app on my phone. Trouble is I'm real tired in the evening and just can't face more than a page, it reads like a legal document which in itself isn't a problem but it's just no fun, it doesn't flow. I'm nowhere near the important bit yet Sorry but, you asked for feedback. I'll try again when I'm not so vacant



I hope that you do find time to read it a chapter at a time as I can see that you would find it hard to engage reading it at just a page or two at a time. 

Others who have given me feedback have said that they found the writing style easy and entertaining (as I hoped that I had designed it to be, after all the real intended audience are tree owners) so please do struggle through the opening and if possible cover as many pages as you can in one sitting. Then you will quickly get to the bits that will hopefully grab your attention by showing you new facets of trees and their evolved design that will have relevance for you. 

They start in Chapter 2 and every Chapter from there to 9 will give a new perspective on different aspects of trees some of which will surprise you. 

Some Chapters are short while others are much more involved but as I said, try to cover a Chapter at a time and I hope that you will find each thought provoking for different reasons.

We are close to having hard copies available too. 

It was always designed to be an A4 or A5 size book specifically so that the images would be large enough for the details to be clear. Reading it on an I-phone is possibly the most extremely confined way to display it. That in itself may be spoiling the read for you so consider trying to transfer to the Kindle for PC app instead.

We have a number of pre-orders for the hard copy but due to costs they will not be free like the Kindle version has been (and will be again in the future) and the first batch are due to be available in a few weeks time.

It's autumn here : -( . I miss those vibrant lime greens of spring that always make my spirits soar for some reason and the nights are getting shorter. The ONLY good thing is that during the long winter nights, I plan to knock book 2 into shape.


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## Tree Morphogene (Dec 23, 2013)

Hi again.

Just a quick note to wish all of you Arborists the best in 2014.

For the holidays, my book will be available as a free download from Christmas eve to Boxing Day.

Please grab a copy from your local Amazon store or find it through the Tree Morphogenesis website and tell me what you think.

If you find it thought provoking, Great. However, if you find new and unusual insights that you will be able to use every day, then and only then will I have hit my mark.

Cheers, David Lloyd-Jones


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 23, 2013)

Tree Morphogene said:


> Hi again.
> 
> Just a quick note to wish all of you Arborists the best in 2014.
> 
> ...




Give me a link,,,I have 2 Kindles,,,


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## Tree Morphogene (Dec 24, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Morphoge...1387883479&sr=8-1&keywords=tree+morphogenesis

This is the link on Amazon.com. 

For other parts of the world people will have to search for Tree Morphogenesis on their local Amazon store.

Enjoy. Have a great Christmas and a better 2014.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 24, 2013)

But what if I dont have a kindle? Gotta I-PAD


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## treesmith (Dec 24, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> But what if I dont have a kindle? Gotta I-PAD


Should be something like a kindle app in the app store, sgreanbeans, should be free too. Android phones/tablets can get Kindle app through Google play


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## Tree Morphogene (Oct 7, 2014)

As part of the pre-launch offer for the large format printed version that just arrived at our office, the *Kindle version* will be available for *free download on Friday the 10th of October 2014*.

To see the pre-launch offer for the first edition in print, register on the website or send a connection request to me on Linkedin.

Trees have given me amazing things and the Tree Morphogenesis project is how I am just beginning to repay the huge debt that I feel.

The insights that I present are new, unusual and will enhance your experience of trees through understanding. The methods that I have chosen to deliver these insights are also new. So if you have a detailed message for your clients, for your prospective new clients and for your peers, you could use the Tree Morphogenesis project model as a way to effectively communicate with all three groups. You might just improve tree care by doing so but you will probably differentiate your business from your local competitors as a direct result.

There are lots of reasons to read this book but the best reason has to be the ways that it might influence how you do what you do in trees every day. Bold words I know but I'm challenging you to read it and give me grief if I fail to deliver.


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## Marshy (Oct 7, 2014)

The thing that interests me is that you claim to want "peer review" of you material through this thread but it's not free (with the exception of a few days per year). Any scholarly article I've ever used has always been free, always. You keep asking for input and the largest amount of input provided this far was problems gaining access to it. Not everyone on here is tech savvy and understands how to DL an app then use it to get your book. If you need to cover the cost of publication I understand but at what point do you call a duck a duck? If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck for a year then it's a duck. I personally think at this point any feedback provided will just stimulate discussion in here and not change your current publication in any way. But I suppose you need material for your next book right..? Sounds like you qualify for sponsor status...


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## Tree Morphogene (Oct 7, 2014)

Hi Marshy

Feedback could easily prompt me to change the current publication and the beauty of Kindle is that anybody who gets a copy (free or bought) will the opportunity to accept or decline updates including any amendments, as I upload them.

Book 2 is already scoped out and I am in process of putting that together and need no new material.

I am putting my life's work in front of you and I am asking you if you will read it because I hope that you will like it and gain from reading it.

Best of all, if I'm wrong, I will endure your taking me to task on the details although in my heart I am hoping for constructive discussion about the various threads in my research that would benefit from other Arborists research and input. There is a mountain of work still to do.

Ask yourself this... If reading my book would give you interesting and relevant things to intrigue and inform your clients with, would you invest those hours?

If the answer is yes, please download your copy and read it, .... just in case.


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