# Elm this, and Elm that...



## Whitespider (Oct 30, 2011)

OK, these elm threads are driving me berserk…
Some just have a hard time identifying the different elm species.

I guess it’s understandable, given there are so many and the differences aren’t all that great. Add in all the imported breeds and… well… confusion. If you live east of the Great Lakes DED near wiped them out years ago and the chances of finding native species becomes slim… but not impossible. But if you live west of the Mississippi River you’ll find most of the native elms still alive in many areas. The river acted as a natural barrier, slowing the advancement of the disease and we have lots of native elm… and tons, and tons of still standing-dead. I cross the river into often for work, and also to visit some friends that live in central Illinois… the differences between the west and east banks are stark if you know what you’re looking for.

First I’d like to give y’all a fool-proof way of identifying _American Elm_. Simply tear off a piece of bark and break it. American Elm is the only elm that will have alternating layers of dark and creamy-white bark. If it does have the creamy-white layers it flat is American Elm… If it ain’t got the creamy-white layers it is some other elm… … and that is a simple fact!!! Check-out the next three pictures…

This pic has three pieces of American Elm on the left and two pieces of Slippery (Red) Elm on the right.
All five pieces of bark are from five different trees in my woodlot.






This pic clearly shows the creamy-white layers in the American Elm bark.





And this is Slippery (Red) Elm bark.






Ok, now for the wood… Both American Elm and Slippery Elm are consistent in color from outside to core. THERE IS NO CHANGE IN COLOR ONCE THE WOOD SURFACES HAVE HAD A DAY OR SO TO DRY!!! If your elm has a dark center it is not American Elm or Slippery Elm… most likely it is Siberian Elm. Rock Elm will have a change in color about at about the 1/3 from the outside point, and it will be very heavy, dense wood.

Here are two pics… American Elm on the left, Slippery (Red) Elm on the right. American Elm has white to slightly off-white wood. Slippery (Red) Elm will vary (depending on the tree) from off-white, to a flesh tone, to a brownish-reddish color… more of a tint than a brilliant color.


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## KsWoodsMan (Oct 30, 2011)

Whiie you are talking the time for this could you also include Siberian Elm, Cedar Elm and Chinese Elm in your identification process. 

I do get a laugh when i hear Cedar Elm or Siberian Elm misidentified as Chinese (Lacebark) Elm and Piss Elm.


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## One Shot Will (Oct 30, 2011)

This is one of the best put together slide show i have seen on Elm.
We have a lot of american elm on our streets but it is going away, and soon will be all gone.
Thank you for showing the differences.


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## ks_osage_orange (Oct 30, 2011)

Good thread, show us Siberian elm also. It seems to be the most common (around NE Kansas anyway.) I have always used winter buds to ID elms.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 30, 2011)

*Spiral Grain Elm?*

I could take Pics of the "unsplittable" spiral grain elm I have encountered recently. This stuff is awful and nobody can identify it, except that it is an elm variety of some sort.

Red elm and American elm both split beautifully when dried in the round a few months and the bark starts falling off. The spiral grain elm is almost impossible to process, regardless of dryness, bark or no bark. What on Earth is it? Siberian?


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## Whitespider (Oct 30, 2011)

KsWoodsMan said:


> *Whiie you are talking the time for this could you also include Siberian Elm, Cedar Elm and Chinese Elm in your identification process.*



I don't have any Siberian Elm in my woodlot, and it is hard to distinguish from the American Elm until it is cut and split. Siberian elm often has a dark center and is extremely stingy and wet, but depending on growing conditions and habitat any elm can be extremely stingy and wet. I use the leaf to ID Siberian Elm... it has smaller leaves than most other elm. Leaves will generally be in the 1 3/4 to 2 3/4 inch long range and a bit more delicate than American or Slippery Elm. I won't cut Siberian Elm for firewood, lousy stuff... but I will cut it just to kill it. Most Siberian Elm will be found growing in fence rows around here, sometimes in yards and parks.

Cedar Elm does not grow this far north. I have only seen Cedar once... in Texas.

Chinese Elm will almost never be found growing in-the-"wild". It is exclusively planted as an ornamental in yards and parks. A smaller tree, easily identified by its very unique (among elms) bark...


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## 1project2many (Oct 30, 2011)

Until I started trying to ID a few specific trees in my woodshed, I had no idea there were so many different "Elms" to choose from. As someone who often gets "free wood" I don't always get to see the tree complete, or alive. This spring I found some Elm which I identified as Siberian Elm with the help of Gurgle Images, Whitespider, and a few others.


























Characteristics: Extremely wet when arrived and stayed wet most of the summer. Splits easily using hydraulic splitter when wet or dry, often no need to push the round completely across the knife. Beautiful reddish brown color inside when wet, color fades significantly when dry. Some stringiness apparent when dry but very little when wet. Bark is gray, thick, with deep furrows. Doesn't pull off logs easily until log starts to dry some. Possibly lighter than Poplar / Cottonwood when dried. Not much popping or sparking when burned, but not a lot of heat, either.


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## AIM (Oct 30, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear that people are driving you berserk. Maybe someday our knowledge will equal that of yours and you can be at peace.


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## scotvl (Oct 30, 2011)

AIM said:


> I'm sorry to hear that people are driving you berserk. Maybe someday our knowledge will equal that of yours and you can be at peace.


 
I don't think Spider is trying to be an ass, different types of elm are very hard for many of us to tell apart:bang:


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## AIM (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't think he is trying to be an ass.


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## scotvl (Oct 30, 2011)

AIM said:


> I don't think he is trying to be an ass.


 
sorry for the misunderstanding:redface:


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## AIM (Oct 30, 2011)

scotvl said:


> sorry for the misunderstanding:redface:



There is no misunderstanding. I'll apologize for being a bit cryptic in my posts. Spidey has a way of posting that just makes me want to poke at him on occasion. Tone of voice is very hard to convey on the net.


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## KsWoodsMan (Oct 31, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> I don't have any Siberian Elm in my woodlot, and it is hard to distinguish from the American Elm until it is cut and split. Siberian elm often has a dark center and is extremely stingy and wet, but depending on growing conditions and habitat any elm can be extremely stingy and wet. I use the leaf to ID Siberian Elm... it has smaller leaves than most other elm. Leaves will generally be in the 1 3/4 to 2 3/4 inch long range and a bit more delicate than American or Slippery Elm. I won't cut Siberian Elm for firewood, lousy stuff... but I will cut it just to kill it. Most Siberian Elm will be found growing in fence rows around here, sometimes in yards and parks.
> 
> Cedar Elm does not grow this far north. I have only seen Cedar once... in Texas.
> 
> Chinese Elm will almost never be found growing in-the-"wild". It is exclusively planted as an ornamental in yards and parks. A smaller tree, easily identified by its very unique (among elms) bark...



YIP ! that's Chinese Elm but every other Elm here seems to get labeled Chinese or piss, which it isn't. Well , piss elm takes in a lot of them. 

Good thread BTW Rep sent

Edit:
Ooops tried to rep ya , I gotta spread some more around first.


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## Locust Cutter (Oct 31, 2011)

I have been educated! So it's Siberian Elm that I loathe and detest....:mad2::angry2::msp_thumbdn:


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 31, 2011)

Locust Cutter said:


> I have been educated! So it's Siberian Elm that I loathe and detest....:mad2::angry2::msp_thumbdn:


 
I'm starting to think that's also what I ran into. Spiral grain all the way to the outside bark. Also, if you look on the end of a round, there is no straight-across check up. As it checks up, it seems to form concentric circlles. Splitting near an outer edge (say 2" to 3" in from the bark) reveals the spiral as you tear off a chunk from the side.

This stuff is miserable but should work well in a bonfire. :msp_wink:


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## Whitespider (Oct 31, 2011)

AIM said:


> There is no misunderstanding. *I'll apologize for being a bit cryptic in my posts*. Spidey has a way of posting that just makes me want to poke at him on occasion. Tone of voice is very hard to convey on the net.


 
No apology necessary... I knew what ya' was "poking" at. :msp_biggrin:


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## 1project2many (Oct 31, 2011)

> As it checks up, it seems to form concentric circlles.


The SE I have here is doing this also.


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## AIM (Oct 31, 2011)

KsWoodsMan said:


> YIP ! that's Chinese Elm but every other Elm here seems to get labeled Chinese or piss, which it isn't. Well , piss elm takes in a lot of them.



We call American elm, piss elm. Quite often it will have urine colored stains in the cut ends. I have mostly American and red around me. I honestly can't say that I have cut siberian or chinese.


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## Whitespider (Oct 31, 2011)

KsWoodsMan said:


> YIP ! that's Chinese Elm but every other Elm here seems to get labeled Chinese or piss, which it isn't. Well , piss elm takes in a lot of them.


 
The nickname of piss elm is a derogatory term that seems to get placed on just about any type of elm, depending on region or local custom. Around here it is often applied to young, small diameter elm that have lots of water in them when cut. I here the term piss elm quite often in the spring/early summer when the ground is wet and the trees are "waking-up" from winter sleep. The thing is that as summer, and dryer weather progresses those same trees won't have near the water in them and the term will die-out until the next spring. Sometimes those young, wet trees will have an odor (described as cat pee) which seems to support the nickname... although, I personally have never thought it smelled like cat urine, and never use the nickname because it does nothing to identify the elm species.

There is one elm that grows in the south, east of Texas, that (from what I've read) has a strong urine-like odor that can be smelled even without cutting... a position down wind from a stand can be a bit offensive. It is the Winged Elm (or Wahoo), a small tree considered a nuisance in many areas because it will "pop-up" in cleared areas and is difficult to get rid of. It is believed that this is the "original" piss elm... and that makes the most sense. Actually we have a few Winged Elm in extreme southeast Iowa along the Mississippi... I've seen it a couple of times but never noticed any odor (that I remember). A strange looking tree that has funky "wing-like" things growing on it... almost resembling some sort of mushroom or fungus.


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## 3fordasho (Oct 31, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> I don't have any Siberian Elm in my woodlot, and it is hard to distinguish from the American Elm until it is cut and split. Siberian elm often has a dark center and is extremely stingy and wet, but depending on growing conditions and habitat any elm can be extremely stingy and wet. I use the leaf to ID Siberian Elm... it has smaller leaves than most other elm. Leaves will generally be in the 1 3/4 to 2 3/4 inch long range and a bit more delicate than American or Slippery Elm. I won't cut Siberian Elm for firewood, lousy stuff... but I will cut it just to kill it. Most Siberian Elm will be found growing in fence rows around here, sometimes in yards and parks.




Leaf size is the easy way to ID siberian elm. The leaves are only 1/3 to 1/4 the size of other elms. Firewood btu charts rate it the same as american elm. I hope it has some value as firewood as I've got quite a bit at the property I'm cutting. I do admit to leaving anything under 6-8" diameter as the small stuff just isn't worth it. One thing I've noticed is the bark makes a lot of ash. Good thing on alot of the trees the bark falls off as you spit it. Maybe it would be better for campfire wood?


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## Locust Cutter (Oct 31, 2011)

3fordasho said:


> Leaf size is the easy way to ID siberian elm. The leaves are only 1/3 to 1/4 the size of other elms. Firewood btu charts rate it the same as american elm. I hope it has some value as firewood as I've got quite a bit at the property I'm cutting. I do admit to leaving anything under 6-8" diameter as the small stuff just isn't worth it. One thing I've noticed is the bark makes a lot of ash. Good thing on alot of the trees the bark falls off as you spit it. Maybe it would be better for campfire wood?


 
I only cut it when I have to but it's alright in a stove. Stinks a bit, smokes a lot, and has a very high ash content. Blend some w/Locust/Osage Orange/Oak and you have a temperate fire that's warm and inviting, w/o being overwelming, (think cool weather, not heating for -15F). Most folks around here refer to Siberian (and likely all others) Elm as piss elm due to the fact that if you park anything under one for any length of time, the tree weeps all over your vehicle/tent/etc and leave a crappy film that's a pain to remove Hence pissing on your possessions.


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## Whitespider (Oct 31, 2011)

3fordasho said:


> *Firewood btu charts rate it* _(Siberian Elm)_ *the same as american elm.*


Which just ain’t right. But most charts also list Slippery (Red) Elm as only marginally better than American Elm… and that ain’t right either. Maybe it has something to do with specific areas or growing conditions? Siberian Elm takes forever to properly dry out, way longer than it’s worth for the return. Darn stuff can be a bear to split, leaving all kinds of thick strings sticking out that make it near impossible to stack. If it’s dry enough it will burn OK, but doesn’t produce the same heat of American Elm and won’t coal-up worth a crap. And as has already been said… it makes a ton of ash, especially the bark. It also doesn’t seem to have the same natural resistance to rot as American Elm… Siberian Elm is the only elm I’ve ever had rot while sitting in a stack. When I first moved into this place there was a huge Siberian in the front yard (almost 3-ft DBH), I took it down that spring, split and stacked it. Eighteen months later most of it wasn’t even any good for the fire pit… the bottom half of the stacks had turned into a rotten spongy mess and the rest was feather light. Now-a-days I wouldn’t even take Siberian Elm if it was delivered free! (well… maybe I’d take it if they’d also stack it for free  )


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## 1project2many (Nov 5, 2011)

Some more pictures of Chinese Elm, because sometimes we get the tree after the bark is gone.






















The wood in these pictures was taken down the day before the pictures were shot. First load of this I ever burned had been down for over a year, The bark was gone and the wood had a yellow-orange color when split. Burned hot and fast, but maybe a bit better than poplar. Chinese Elm likes to produce branches at seemingly random places and has a lot of crooked wood that's tough to stack in nice, neat piles.


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## Red Elm (Nov 5, 2011)

Excellent tutorial Whitespider and a great thread all the way through. There are a couple of ways to distinguish American Elm from Red Elm after they have died and lost their bark. American elm has a bare shape like that of a long stemmed flower vase, kind of a big V on a pillar, and a Red Elm is more irregular. Also, the American Elm exhibits more buttress roots. The Red Elm sometimes is totaly void of buttress roots, looking like a pole stuck in the ground. In my area the barkless Red Elm appears to be a darker gray/brown while a barkless White Elm will be a lighter gray.

Standing dead Red Elm is one of my favortie woods as it burns hot, and if it has been dead a couple of years or more can go straight from the splitter into the stove. My wife can make a white-hot coal bed with Red Elm. One thing I have noticed is that when cleaning out the ash from one of those white-hot coal beds, there will be something that looks like ceramic clinkers in the ashes. Have no idea what that is. No, not part of the stove, its a 1980's era Old Time Appalachian stove that has burnt LOTS of hedge. I only find this after burning Red Elm.

American Elm is rarely burned in this area unless it was just a tree that needed cut. Red Elm is rarely cut green. Siberian Elm is considered a weed in this area.


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## svk (Feb 20, 2015)

Is this American elm? I've never cut green elm before, surprised to see this much color.


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## svk (Feb 21, 2015)

svk said:


> Is this American elm? I've never cut green elm before, surprised to see this much color.
> 
> View attachment 405562
> View attachment 405564
> View attachment 405565


Anybody? I think I can see the alternating cream and brown layers in the bark.


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## hupte (Feb 21, 2015)

if you see the alternating layers of red and white in the bark then its definitely american elm. if you need a better view of the bark. try breaking it apart. it separates the layers of red and white and its easier to see.


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## svk (Feb 21, 2015)

I was surprised to see so much color in the heartwood. The picture doesn't do justice but there are a lot of reds in with the brown.


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## hupte (Feb 21, 2015)

yes I agree, american elm has some nice brown color. I was surprised to see all the stuff I have turn light brown, or white after a few weeks of being c+s+s


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## svk (Feb 21, 2015)

Man that stuff is grabby too. I couldn't understand why my chain kept grabbing until I looked at the bark.


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## lindnova (Feb 22, 2015)

It is easiest to identify by the leaves, but the bark is slightly different than american and I can ususally identify without leaves. I think the thick bark contributes to rotting fast. I have nearly eradicated it on my property and used most of it for firewood in the Heatmor outdoor furnace. I have managed to either burn it the next year or some of it laid in logs for a year or two and some was cut, bucked and stacked in the woods before being moved and split a year later.

If Siberian sits for a year the bark will fall off very easily. I think if it is in stacks with the bark on that will contribute to rotting. I have had some sit in stacks with the bark off - large splits for 3 years uncovered and not one bit of rot. It actually was pretty clean wood and dry smells the same as other elms. As far as heat value, it is similar to cherry, but not as good as American elm and seems to work well in the outdoor furnace. Heck I burn box elder in there and it is way better than that.

So based on my experience if I cut any more for firewood I will either split big pieces, burn the next year or stack in rounds for a year then split and loose the bark and stack for another year or two. I am thinking the 3 or so remaining larger Siberians standing might just get girdled though since I have an abundance of oak and dead standing American elm.

By the way it seems these trees are infesting everywhere. They have pockets in my area where I am close to, but I was in the Spiders turf last weekend and they are absolutely taking over the ROW lines on the highways in Iowa. The worst was on hwy 218 from Waterloo to Mason city. Anywhere the ground is bare and seeds are around they start sprouting. If there is turf they have a harder time getting established.

Here is a picture of Siberian elm I cut this winter. Notice the split with ice in the middle. This was a healthy looking tree. I will be happy to have all the Siberians gone. I just found the last infestation in the west woods. I thought I had them all gone, but have been walking by these without realizing it. Now if I could only get the neighbors to get rid of theirs...


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 22, 2015)

Why get rid of Siberian elm? Once dry, it splits and burns beautifully. And, the bark that falls off makes good kindling to light the fire. None of my customers complains when delivered split and dry. What more do you guys want? Rare hickory?


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## lindnova (Feb 22, 2015)

I am getting rid of it because it is a weed. If a field is plowed up the edges start to get taken over by Siberians. I have plenty of other good trees to take the place. It also has been succumbing to dutch elm disease here - mainly in the woods by other American elms. The SE take years to fully die, but they witch broom out and hang on for a while.


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 22, 2015)

Weeds don't seem to provide as much heat in the stove as Siberian elm. Even its bark works better for kindling than weeds. Hey, it's not perfect, but it works. There are guys here that even burn box elder.


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## lindnova (Feb 22, 2015)

I do burn box elder and Siberian elm. Probably have 2-3 cords of each in the stacks. When clearing tree lines I make use of the wood vs wasting it. When there are nice dead oaks to burn vs. SE on hillsides that are hard to access, I will burn oak and kill the Siberians so more oak can grow.


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## Woody912 (Feb 22, 2015)

Wood Doctor said:


> Weeds don't seem to provide as much heat in the stove as Siberian elm. Even its bark works better for kindling than weeds. Hey, it's not perfect, but it works. There are guys here that even burn box elder.



Given a choice between freezing and burning box elder I'd probably have to flip a coin! Current contents of my wood shed is red and white oak, hickory, ash, red elm, cherry,hard maple, cherry and hedge. Yes, I'm spoiled


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## hupte (Feb 23, 2015)

nice!! i'm no wood snob in my stacks i have hedge, black locust, mulberry, honey locust, white oak, black oak, bur oak, ash, hackberry, siberian elm, american elm, sugar maple, silver maple, box elder maple, willow, cottonwood, poplar, cedar. hope i'm not forgetting any. lol.


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## olyman (Feb 23, 2015)

hupte said:


> nice!! i'm no wood snob in my stacks i have hedge, black locust, mulberry, honey locust, white oak, black oak, bur oak, ash, hackberry, siberian elm, american elm, sugar maple, silver maple, box elder maple, willow, cottonwood, poplar, cedar. hope i'm not forgetting any. lol.


 separated according to soft or hard??? pre, and post season???


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## Whitespider (Feb 23, 2015)

svk said:


> _*Anybody? I think I can see the alternating cream and brown layers in the bark.*_


Normally those creamy-white layers are quite pronounced and well defined... the words, "_I think I can see..._" makes me believe it ain't American Elm. But also, at the same time, your pictures don't give me a good look at the bark either. Personally I'm leaning towards Siberian Elm... but beings as you live "up north" it could be Red Elm or even Rock Elm (no bettin' heavy on Rock... bark and growth rings look wrong). The dark center and wide(ish) lookin' growth rings make me lean toward Siberian.
*


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## svk (Feb 23, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Normally those creamy-white layers are quite pronounced and well defined... the words, "_I think I can see..._" makes me believe it ain't American Elm. But also, at the same time, your pictures don't give me a good look at the bark either. Personally I'm leaning towards Siberian Elm... but beings as you live "up north" it could be Red Elm or even Rock Elm (no bettin' heavy on Rock... bark and growth rings look wrong). The dark center and wide(ish) lookin' growth rings make me lean toward Siberian.
> *


This was a tree cut in upstate NY if that helps. Also I'm inspecting the cell phone photo which isn't all that clear. I didn't pay attention when I was up there.


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## Whitespider (Feb 23, 2015)

svk said:


> _*This was a tree cut in upstate NY if that helps.*_


Now I'm really leanin' toward Siberian.
*


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## Woody912 (Feb 23, 2015)

hupte said:


> nice!! i'm no wood snob in my stacks i have hedge, black locust, mulberry, honey locust, white oak, black oak, bur oak, ash, hackberry, siberian elm, american elm, sugar maple, silver maple, box elder maple, willow, cottonwood, poplar, cedar. hope i'm not forgetting any. lol.


I have a token sampling of those except the cottonwood and siberian elm but I try to sneak them into the stove when no one is looking and only cut them when I have to. Image is everything ya know!


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## hupte (Feb 23, 2015)

olyman said:


> separated according to soft or hard??? pre, and post season???


oh ya!!! well for the most part. some pieces are mixed. I'd say 90 percent of the wood is separated. I try my best but i'm far from perfect.


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## lindnova (Feb 23, 2015)

hupte said:


> oh ya!!! well for the most part. some pieces are mixed. I'd say 90 percent of the wood is separated. I try my best but i'm far from perfect.


I don't separate much. If I have some oak or wood that I know will be sitting for a few years it will be separate, otherwise it is all mixed up if I am using it next year. In the picture oak on the right and on the left is a mix of elm(American and Siberian) , oak, cherry, pine, box elder, aspen, and a little mulberry. I have some standing storage ash behind the piles. If it dies not to far to haul.


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## svk (Mar 14, 2015)

Now that I've burned it a few times I'm always on the lookout for elm. The native elm up here were basically wiped out by DED in the 70's but I'm seeing a lot of smaller elms growing anywhere within a mile or so of towns. No scrounges yet. My logger friend says he comes across pure stands of rock elm (and also ironwood) every so often but they are pretty rare.


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## Husqavarna Guy (Mar 15, 2015)

Wood Doctor said:


> Weeds don't seem to provide as much heat in the stove as Siberian elm. Even its bark works better for kindling than weeds. Hey, it's not perfect, but it works. There are guys here that even burn box elder.



We have lots of it here in Colorado. I get all I want from a buddy in town with a tree service. Its heavy as hell green but if I let it dry for a month It splits pretty easy and dries fast as we have very hot dry summers. It does seem to burn pretty hot once you get it going.


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## cantoo (Mar 16, 2015)

Yup, this looks like elm.


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## cantoo (Mar 16, 2015)

How could you even fell good about showing off your splitter using this wood as a sample of it's abilities?


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## svk (Mar 16, 2015)

cantoo said:


> Yup, this looks like elm.



Lol not


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## Whitespider (Mar 17, 2015)

I don't believe I've ever had anything that split that straight 'n' easy‼
*


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## cantoo (Mar 17, 2015)

Well, let's not drag your xwife into this. Darn stuff pretty near fell apart on it's own didn't it?


You know I had a ur Mom comment but deleted it.


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## 7sleeper (Mar 17, 2015)

That's what I call birch.

7


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## svk (Mar 17, 2015)

7sleeper said:


> That's what I call birch.
> 
> 7


Kiln dried birch!


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## svk (Jul 22, 2015)

I was on Nantucket yesterday and they have lots of elms although they seem to be suffering somewhat from DED. One was over 4' diameter, I can only imagine how long it's been there.


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## Full Chisel (Jul 22, 2015)

The one sure thing about elm is that it's highly variable and hard to ID separate species. We have a lot of slippery elm around here, and patches of American elm. I know of several huge Americans, one is easily 4-5' DBH.


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## Wood Doctor (Jul 23, 2015)

So, here it is, the elm wood that nobody seems to want but it's the wood that heated my house most of last year. I split all of it after I quartered the rounds and loaded them onto my truck. Really good firewood in my book.




Eventually it became this:



I saved about $600 heating my house with it.


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## hardpan (Jul 24, 2015)

No doubt it is good heat. To me that is a big one. I think my largest was 18 or 20 inches and was a SOB to split, all of it. I won't pass it up but it would be OK if I never found one in my path again.


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## Wood Doctor (Jul 26, 2015)

hardpan said:


> No doubt it is good heat. To me that is a big one. I think my largest was 18 or 20 inches and was a SOB to split, all of it. I won't pass it up but it would be OK if I never found one in my path again.


Here's how it was carried to the log splitter:



Each round was cut into four blocks with noodle cutting. Each block weighed about 100 lb, and that was light enough for me to raise up to the tailgate and push on board.


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## svk (Jul 26, 2015)

This one was 28" across and had 70 growth rings. Would have made nice firewood if anyone wanted to roll those big rounds out of the swamp.


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## AIM (Jul 26, 2015)

Wood Doctor said:


> Here's how it was carried to the log splitter:
> 
> 
> 
> Each round was cut into four blocks with noodle cutting. Each block weighed about 100 lb, and that was light enough for me to raise up to the tailgate and push on board.


I'm not sure that's elm????


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## svk (Oct 7, 2015)

svk said:


> Is this American elm? I've never cut green elm before, surprised to see this much color.
> 
> View attachment 405562
> View attachment 405564
> View attachment 405565


@Whitespider @3fordasho Similar to this?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Oct 7, 2015)

holy dead thread revival


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## svk (Oct 7, 2015)

Well we have a case of mystery wood to solve!


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## Deleted member 83629 (Oct 7, 2015)

no other explanation needed if it is wood it burns, sure as hell beats a snowball.


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## Locust Cutter (Oct 7, 2015)

Yes it is Elm and it can have amazing color inside. I'd actually like to mill some that was already semi-dry just to see it.


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## 3fordasho (Oct 8, 2015)

svk said:


> @Whitespider @3fordasho Similar to this?




I would immediately think American Elm. Brown center, white/yellowish around the outer half. The stuff I have has light red/pink coloration through-out.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 8, 2015)

AIM said:


> I'm not sure that's elm????


Yes, it is. In fact, some of the elm I just split has a deep red color to it that browns out in the sun. SVK's and mine look very similar. The idea behind all of this elm around here is to let it sit in the round for 6 to 8 months before splitting it. When the bark falls off, it's ready. These rounds in my truck were so big and heavy that I had to noodle cut them into quarters before loading. On occasion, I have to go down to to six blocks. The bark fell off as I cut the 8' log to 18" rounds, halves, quarters, and sixths.


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## robespierre (Sep 30, 2016)

is winged elm a good firewood and I have some old dead standing winged elm with checking all over so it looks like it should be easy to split with a maul or maybe fiskars since there is so much checking.


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## Husqavarna Guy (Sep 30, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> Yes, it is. In fact, some of the elm I just split has a deep red color to it that browns out in the sun. SVK's and mine look very similar. The idea behind all of this elm around here is to let it sit in the round for 6 to 8 months before splitting it. When the bark falls off, it's ready. These rounds in my truck were so big and heavy that I had to noodle cut them into quarters before loading. On occasion, I have to go down to to six blocks. The bark fell off as I cut the 8' log to 18" rounds, halves, quarters, and sixths.




It's the same stuff I have been cutting here in Colorado. Very heavy and hard. It's been down 3 years and most of the bark is off most of it. I've had to switch to all semi chisel chain because it just years up my full chisel after a few cuts. This stuff is like cutting concrete.


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## Wood Doctor (Sep 30, 2016)

I ran into some similar elm last week -- hard as nails and tough to split with a slight spiral to the grain. The tree had been standing dead for about five years. Bark was gone. The bottom 15 feet of the tree's trunk still had wood with moisture in it and will require some drying. The rest will be burnable immediately. The log splitter yelled at me several times while working. Regardless, it will produce a bundle of heat.

The tree removal company tried mulching branches in excess of 4" dia. and they had to shut down the chipper. They called me over to process all the larger pieces for firewood. I said, "Hey, guys, you told me this chipper could handle branches up to 6" dia."

The foreman said, "Not this stuff. It's all yours."


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## Husqavarna Guy (Sep 30, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> I ran into some similar elm last week -- hard as nails and tough to split with a slight spiral to the grain. The tree had been standing dead for about five years. Bark was gone. The bottom 15 feet of the tree's trunk still had wood wi
> th moisture in it and will require some drying. The rest will be burnable immediately. The log splitter yelled at me several times while working. Regardless, it will produce a bundle of heat.
> 
> The tree removal company tried mulching branches in excess of 4" dia. and they had to shut down the chipper. They called me over to process all the larger pieces for firewood. I said, "Hey, guys, you told me this chipper could handle branches up to 6" dia."
> ...



I am assuming you are using semi chisel chain to cut this stuff also? The bottom of the trees are clean with no bark and it dulled my full chisel right away. 24 inch at the base. It seems the base is the hardest to cut. The funny thing is people around here that don't know firewood still would rather buy Aspen than this stuff?


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## olyman (Oct 1, 2016)

Husqavarna Guy said:


> I am assuming you are using semi chisel chain to cut this stuff also? The bottom of the trees are clean with no bark and it dulled my full chisel right away. 24 inch at the base. It seems the base is the hardest to cut. The funny thing is people around here that don't know firewood still would rather buy Aspen than this stuff?


well for sure dont tell em!!!!!!!!! that way,,you get all the "bad" stuff!!!!!!!!!!


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## svk (Oct 1, 2016)

svk said:


> @Whitespider @3fordasho Similar to this?


Interesting that pics from 2015 have disappeared. That's well after linkbux/switch to xenforo hosting.


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## olyman (Oct 1, 2016)

svk said:


> Interesting that pics from 2015 have disappeared. That's well after linkbux/switch to xenforo hosting.


hmmmmm...............


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## svk (Oct 3, 2016)

Found another stand of small elm in a reprog area that was logged 25 years ago. Wet, clay soil. 

Leaves were pretty large as far as elm go. Bark is different than the American I've cut but similar to the other stand of elm I've found about a mile and a half from this. Of the two larger ones, one was the traditional "martini glass" elm shape and the other one was more like a tootsie pop with a rounded canopy. 





What be this elm?


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## CaseyForrest (Oct 3, 2016)

Ive got a couple of those growing in the middle of wild rose bushes.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 3, 2016)

Siberian elm? That's my guess. Grows like weeds around here. Makes good firewood and easy to split after the bark falls off the rounds.


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## svk (Oct 3, 2016)

Bark really doesn't look identical to any of the other elm I've cut and that's what stumps me. Looks closer to red than any of the others.

The leaves seem to be larger than Siberian though?


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## svk (Oct 4, 2016)

Anybody? @Whitespider 

I may just have to drop one of these and find the answer.


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## Whitespider (Oct 4, 2016)

svk said:


> *Anybody?* @Whitespider
> *I may just have to drop one of these and find the answer.*


How big are the leaves... like 6-8 inches long?? Are they real rough on top... like 60 grit sandpaper?? That would be Red Elm.
However, that bark looks like Rock Elm, and so does the leaves... leaves would be 5 inches or less, and smooth, even shiny smooth.
If it's Rock Elm you've got some of the best firewood ever created by God.

Note... Siberian Elm leaves are small... like 2½ inches or less.
*


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## svk (Oct 4, 2016)

Whitespider said:


> How big are the leaves... like 6-8 inches long?? Are they real rough on top... like 60 grit sandpaper?? That would be Red Elm.
> However, that bark looks like Rock Elm, and so does the leaves... leaves would be 5 inches or less, and smooth, even shiny smooth.
> If it's Rock Elm you've got some of the best firewood ever created by God.
> 
> ...


5 inch leaves sound about right. They are definitely not 8". I can pull a few down or collect a few off the ground next time I'm up there in two weeks. 

Would growing in/near wet areas be an indicator of rock elm as well?


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## Whitespider (Oct 4, 2016)

svk said:


> *...next time I'm up there in two weeks.
> Would growing in/near wet areas be an indicator of rock elm as well?*


Up where??
Northern Minnesota is not the "natural" range of either species... but I'm not so sure that's as important today as yesteryear, given how mankind's influence has changed so much.
Rock Elm ain't typically found in "wet" areas... but all elms are adaptable.
There is another possibility... given the bark and leave... Siberian Elm and Red Elm are known to readily hybridize in the natural wild.
*


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## svk (Oct 4, 2016)

Yes meaning northeastern MN not far south of the Canadian border. 

There used to be tons of huge elms in this area pre DED. Also my logger friend said he usually finds rock elm near water fwiw.

There's one in the stand that looks like the top suffered some trauma and then a new leader came out of the trunk. I can sacrifice that one to see what the wood looks like and if it weighs a ton to indicate rock elm.


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## Whitespider (Oct 4, 2016)

Husqavarna Guy said:


> *The bottom of the trees are clean with no bark and it dulled my full chisel right away. 24 inch at the base. It seems the base is the hardest to cut.*


Most elms are "wet" when "green"... they pull a lot of moisture up from the soil.
Depending on the type of soil elm can have a very high mineral content in the wood that will actually leave greenish colored "clinkers" in the firebox.
I near always use a semi-chisel chain to cut elm... and I always use semi-chisel chain to cut dead elm.
I've had full-chisel go worthlessly dull in just a few cuts on dead elm more than once.



svk said:


> *Also my logger friend said he usually finds rock elm near water fwiw.*


Near water wouldn't surprise me... but most of the Rock Elm I find is growing on limestone bluffs and hillsides... maybe near water, but still well drained.
However, like most anything with a will(?) to survive... adaption to the conditions is the key to survival.
*


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## svk (Oct 5, 2016)

That would be really cool if it is indeed rock elm. It would be nice to have a stand of future primo firewood being most of the high btu stuff doesn't grow this far north.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 5, 2016)

svk said:


> That would be really cool if it is indeed rock elm. It would be nice to have a stand of future primo firewood being most of the high btu stuff doesn't grow this far north.


Don't get your hopes up that this is rock elm. That is as scarce as hen's teeth. Red elm has also become scarce around here, and I always welcome American elm whenever I find it. The dutch elm disease almost wiped them both out some 40 to 50 years ago.

I like this quote from Whitespider, "Siberian Elm and Red Elm are known to readily hybridize in the natural wild."

I believe I have run into this on a couple of occasions and perhaps recently.


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## benp (Oct 5, 2016)

Soooo.... since this thread has been revived what are your thoughts on this. 

At first I thought I had red maple on my hands. 

But after reading spidys original post the "creamy white" bark stuck out. The pictures from the original posts aren't working fo me. 

I am west of the Mississippi by 10 miles and I can walk across it. It's about 10-15 ft wide and maybe a foot deep on a wet day. 

















And there is this blowdown I'm going to scrounge that is very similar


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## benp (Oct 5, 2016)

There are elms in the area that the blowdown is in. None that big though.


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## lindnova (Oct 6, 2016)

benp said:


> Soooo.... since this thread has been revived what are your thoughts on this.
> 
> At first I thought I had red maple on my hands.
> 
> ...



I think you have pin or red oak there. Is it real heavy?

I just went to the headwaters last winter for the first time. Cool place up there with all the big old growth trees.


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## benp (Oct 6, 2016)

Yes very heavy. 

Sweet if it is oak!!! I am sitting on a lot of it. 

It's not like any of the other oak I have that's why I was asking. The red oak is more dark when split.


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## svk (Oct 6, 2016)

Ben, the top pics are definitely red or pin (red family) oak.

Those bottom pics look almost like ash. Do you have a pic of the end grain?


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## benp (Oct 6, 2016)

Sweet! I'm ok with Oak!!!!

I do not. I will once I get after it this weekend though. 

That tree will be mine this weekend.


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## svk (Oct 6, 2016)

benp said:


> Sweet! I'm ok with Oak!!!!
> 
> I do not. I will once I get after it this weekend though.
> 
> That tree will be mine this weekend.



So do you need to burn seasoned wood with that new high tech boiler?


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## benp (Oct 6, 2016)

It really helps. 

That's why I'm going crazy with the splitting right now. Almost everything is getting split and smaller pieces than what I am used to. You can tell in the wood pile where the decision for this new stove came. Regular size splits then all small. 

We already have a bunch of "burn now or will be ready to burn" wood. 

The neighbor also mentioned getting a few bundles of slabs to mix in with the stuff that's marginal. 

Those pictures of the split oak is already having cracks in the ends in the stuff I did Saturday and Sunday.


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## svk (Oct 6, 2016)

benp said:


> It really helps.
> 
> That's why I'm going crazy with the splitting right now. Almost everything is getting split and smaller pieces than what I am used to. You can tell in the wood pile where the decision for this new stove came. Regular size splits then all small.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I missed it but this stove I am assuming will be much more efficient than the homemade beast?


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## lindnova (Oct 6, 2016)

Cracks in the oak ends means it is starting to dry, but it is unlikely you will like burning it this year. Hopefully you can give it another year.


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## benp (Oct 6, 2016)

svk said:


> Sorry if I missed it but this stove I am assuming will be much more efficient than the homemade beast?



Very. 

http://centralboiler.com/products/classic-edge/


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## benp (Oct 6, 2016)

lindnova said:


> Cracks in the oak ends means it is starting to dry, but it is unlikely you will like burning it this year. Hopefully you can give it another year.



Oh I 110% agree. 

Hopefully after this year we'll be sitting on rollover wood for next season and keep adding


Aaaaand hopefully we will be testing one of these out for a while. 

http://halversonwoodproducts.com/

The owner was at a wedding the neighbor and I were in 2 weeks ago. 

My neighbor knows him. We have tested some of his prototypes before and he has borrowed our skidsteer to demo his large models. 

He asked the neighbor if he wanted to wring out a big model. 

You can imagine my neighbors answer. 

So if this does really materialize we will be through the log yard like the clump family at a buffet. 

This is the guy that came up with the Hahn processor.


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## zogger (Oct 6, 2016)

benp said:


> Oh I 110% agree.
> 
> Hopefully after this year we'll be sitting on rollover wood for next season and keep adding
> 
> ...




AAk! That there is serious cheatin!

With that said c'moooonnnn lottery! Goin the bucket list


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## benp (Oct 6, 2016)

Yes zog....yes it is. 

I'm ok with that. 

If we can get 20+ cords cut and split in a weekend.....sign me up

Leaves me more time for scrounging blowdowns


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 8, 2016)

Everybody hates the way elm splits green because then it's stringy as all get out. That's because they don't let the rounds sit for awhile and until the bark falls off. So I just noticed something about my wood pile today. The elm rounds I cut in the spring have checked up on the ends and I can easily remove the bark.

Hi Ho, Hi Ho
It's off to the splitter I go.
The bark falls off, elm should split clean,
Hi Ho, Hi Ho!


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## benp (Oct 8, 2016)

svk said:


> Ben, the top pics are definitely red or pin (red family) oak.
> 
> Those bottom pics look almost like ash. Do you have a pic of the end grain?



You were correct on the ash. 

Big black ash. 

The standing part was rotted and 10 feet of the downed trunk was too. 

Managed a full load out of it though


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## svk (Oct 10, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> Don't get your hopes up that this is rock elm. That is as scarce as hen's teeth. Red elm has also become scarce around here, and I always welcome American elm whenever I find it. The dutch elm disease almost wiped them both out some 40 to 50 years ago.
> 
> I like this quote from Whitespider, "Siberian Elm and Red Elm are known to readily hybridize in the natural wild."
> 
> I believe I have run into this on a couple of occasions and perhaps recently.


I found a good sized stand of Siberian elm near my house and there's a noticeable difference between the Siberian bark and that of the trees near my cabin. I'll find out for sure next week.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 12, 2016)

Today I delivered a truckload of mixed hardwoods, About 60% was elm, either Siberian or American. The rest was maple, ash, walnut, and mystery wood that was as dense as locust but not locust. It had the same color as oak, but the coarse grain was more like locust and that makes it a fast growing tree. Nobody knows what it is. The tree was down before I cut it up and the leaves were already shredded by the tree removal company. I'll try to get pics of the logs. It splits nicely when green.

Regardless, the customer said the mixture I supplied was superb. He loves burning mixed hardwoods and agrees that good elm is almost impossible to beat for a fireplace -- no sparks, no cinders, etc. etc.


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## svk (Oct 12, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> Today I delivered a truckload of mixed hardwoods, About 60% was elm, either Siberian or American. The rest was maple, ash, walnut, and mystery wood that was as dense as locust but not locust. It had the same color as oak, but the coarse grain was more like locust and that makes it a fast growing tree. Nobody knows what it is. The tree was down before I cut it up and the leaves were already shredded by the tree removal company. I'll try to get pics of the logs. It splits nicely when green.
> 
> Regardless, the customer said the mixture I supplied was superb. He loves burning mixed hardwoods and agrees that good elm is almost impossible to beat for a fireplace -- no sparks, no cinders, etc. etc.


I do like how elm, at least American burns completely silent too.


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## Ranchers-son (Oct 16, 2016)

@Whitespider im in north central Oklahoma and a American elm in my FIL's yard just died last spring , leaved out then all leaves just fell off. My question is what are the signs of ded?


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## svk (Oct 16, 2016)

I checked the one stand and found more larger trees with the same bark. Didn't have time to drop one yet.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 16, 2016)

Ranchers-son said:


> @Whitespider im in north central Oklahoma and a American elm in my FIL's yard just died last spring , leaved out then all leaves just fell off. My question is what are the signs of ded?


We have watched birch trees behave exactly the same way around here for several years. They leaf out fine the previous years and then die suddenly the next. I just cut one down for a customer, dead as a hammer. There were small branches all over the place but with no leaves at all in any part of the tree. The branch wood showed no moisture and will be used for firewood and kindling. Two years ago it was judged alive.


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## svk (Oct 16, 2016)

As an update my mystery elms do have a quite rough leaf on the upper side. Sort of like a cats tongue but not as rough. Is rock the only species that has this?


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## Ranchers-son (Oct 16, 2016)

This elm was alive and well in the spring not a dead limb on it then all the leaves fell off by summer.


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## Whitespider (Oct 17, 2016)

Ranchers-son said:


> *My question is what are the signs of ded?*


Usually I see one side of the tree die one year and the other side the next year.



svk said:


> *As an update my mystery elms do have a quite rough leaf on the upper side. Sort of like a cats tongue but not as rough. Is rock the only species that has this?*


 I've never felt a cats tongue so that description don't help me.

Red Elm has really rough leaves... like 60 grit sandpaper.
American Elm can have smooth or rough leaves... but not as rough as Red Elm.
Rock Elm leaves are sort'a shiny on top... it's been a few years but I don't remember Rock Elm having rough leaves.
*


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## svk (Oct 17, 2016)

The beaver had knocked down one of these trees so I didn't need to. Judging by how little he took I'm assuming he didn't like it. 

This stuff is very heavy. Cuts very slowly and throws more slivers (like red oak) than actual chips. Cuts smell like fresh dog poop. 

This 4" split took 7 full power hits from my Husky S2800 axe which is significantly more powerful than a Fiskars but did yield finally.







So I'm noticing the alternating light and dark bark as well......


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## Ranchers-son (Oct 17, 2016)

@Whitespider thanks for responding. I did some research and think "elm yellows " may have killed it.


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## Whitespider (Oct 18, 2016)

svk said:


> *So I'm noticing the alternating light and dark bark as well......*


Those creamy-white layers in the bark leave no doubt... it's American Elm.
Just goes to show how difficult it is to identify a tree by its outer bark appearance.



Ranchers-son said:


> *I did some research and think "elm yellows " may have killed it.*


Could very well be...
*


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## svk (Oct 18, 2016)

Well there you have it!

I'm assuming the crappy smell of the wet wood is just a function of what kind of soil this was in? The other AE I've cut in other areas smelled kind of sweet.


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## GVS (Oct 18, 2016)

Ranchers-son said:


> @Whitespider im in north central Oklahoma and a American elm in my FIL's yard just died last spring , leaved out then all leaves just fell off. My question is what are the signs of ded?


I experianced the same thing with an elm several years ago.Leafed out in the spring,looked great.End of June ,early July,leaves dropped and the tree looked like November.I thought this is going to be tough splitting.Nope,split as easy as maple!


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## svk (Dec 27, 2016)

I have a chance to get ahold of a 12-14" diameter Chinese elm log to test the Isocore maul in. Is this stuff tough to split? Looking for a challenge to test the new maul.


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## lindnova (Dec 28, 2016)

Chinese or Siberian? Never split Chinese, but Siberian is usually fairly stringy, not as bad as American, but should be a good test.


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## svk (Dec 28, 2016)

Chinese


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## redheadwoodshed (Dec 28, 2016)

Whitespider said:


> The nickname of piss elm is a derogatory term that seems to get placed on just about any type of elm, depending on region or local custom. Around here it is often applied to young, small diameter elm that have lots of water in them when cut. I here the term piss elm quite often in the spring/early summer when the ground is wet and the trees are "waking-up" from winter sleep. The thing is that as summer, and dryer weather progresses those same trees won't have near the water in them and the term will die-out until the next spring. Sometimes those young, wet trees will have an odor (described as cat pee) which seems to support the nickname... although, I personally have never thought it smelled like cat urine, and never use the nickname because it does nothing to identify the elm species.
> 
> There is one elm that grows in the south, east of Texas, that (from what I've read) has a strong urine-like odor that can be smelled even without cutting... a position down wind from a stand can be a bit offensive. It is the Winged Elm (or Wahoo), a small tree considered a nuisance in many areas because it will "pop-up" in cleared areas and is difficult to get rid of. It is believed that this is the "original" piss elm... and that makes the most sense. Actually we have a few Winged Elm in extreme southeast Iowa along the Mississippi... I've seen it a couple of times but never noticed any odor (that I remember). A strange looking tree that has funky "wing-like" things growing on it... almost resembling some sort of mushroom or fungus.


In north Louisiana we have a lot of winged elm(ulmus alata) it smells like somebody pissed on the fire when you burn it, it is twisty kinda like sweetgum(liquedamber styraciflua) but much harder. Hence the expression "harder than a piss elum club". Cheers!


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## Khntr85 (Dec 29, 2016)

Is this what you guys would call Siberian elm or piss elm???

It's the big rounds in the front I am talking about...


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## svk (Dec 29, 2016)

Yes that looks like Siberian


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## Whitespider (Dec 29, 2016)

svk said:


> *Yes that looks like Siberian*


I agree... that is what it "looks" like.
*


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## Khntr85 (Dec 29, 2016)

Thanks I figured, just checking...it's a very wired wood start out very wet, dries fairly quick for in sun, burns ok.... guy dumped it at my house, I will never ever turn any wood free down!!!

All keeps me my house, my water, my family warm!!!!


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 30, 2016)

Elm.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 30, 2016)

Sorry, wrong species. Elm here.


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## svk (Dec 30, 2016)

Whitespider said:


> I agree... that is what it "looks" like.
> *


Assuming the parentheses mean you think it's something else?


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## Odog (Dec 31, 2016)

Ok, so just what the he77 is piss elm? We seem to have an over abundance of it here in southern Idaho, it's harder than the back of my head, it hates me, my splitter, my saws and my chains. It has pretty sh**y roots, seems very susceptible to rot in the root, grows quick and dies on a whim. And when you burn it you get moderate heat and a log sized hunk of ash, but I have a neighbor who swears it's the best hardwood she's ever burned and pays me to bring it to her.


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## Whitespider (Dec 31, 2016)

svk said:


> *Assuming the parentheses mean you think it's something else?*


Not at all... it looks like Siberian Elm... it's just that I'm always a bit hesitant to say for 100% positive based on a picture.
*


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