# Should I believe this guy or................?



## Gitman66 (Feb 20, 2006)

hello, I own a small chunk of land in Michigan and was recently contacted by a man doing some logging on the property behind mine. He said he'd like to remove some of my maple trees. He looked them over and said he would only take 16" and bigger and it would be about $4500. I asked how many trees that was and he said there's eighty one (81). Should I believe this guy or should I do more research?...who do I ask...I realize a guy's got to make a profit, I just would like to know what the going price is. The trees are about 100+ yrs. Thanks for your time.
G


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## clearance (Feb 20, 2006)

Do you really need the $4500? If not forget it. 81 trees at $4500 is like $55 a tree, you will be left the slash, stumps, why? Anyways, if you need the jake, of course look a little into it, then ask for more, of course.


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## Newfie (Feb 20, 2006)

Doesn't sound like enough to me, especially since he approached you, so the quality is likely pretty high for him to be that interested. The maple market is up right now. Contact a forester to cruise the timber for you and give you a better idea of what your trees are worth and what is best for your land. Sounds like this logger might be interested in high grading your property and leaving you a residual stand of firewood trees.


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## mike385 (Feb 20, 2006)

Hello,
Just make sure that they didn't already cross the line. I know of a few crews around here in PA that have crossed the line and then ask to see if you want to sell your timber to cover their butts. I would def. check around.


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 20, 2006)

And if it isn't too late already, be sure your property line is clearly marked.

Harry K


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## Husky288XP (Feb 20, 2006)

Its time to bite the bullet and hire a forester to come in and cruise your timber. The cruise will provide you with the total estimated volume, by species, of your stand. This volume, in board ft., can then be used to give you an estimated price of your trees. 16" and above sounds like he is high grading your stand, which is a big management no no. At least have a forester mark your property boundaries to prevent or stop timber theft.


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## chaikwa (Feb 20, 2006)

Contact the MI Dept of Natural Resources. They have programs to help manage your timber stand correctly, and they will pay 1/2 the cost for a forester to come in and develop a Forest Stewardship Plan, (FSP). Mine cost me $200 after the cost share and made me aware and eligible for a couple of cost share grants. Essentially, they are paying me to maintain my woodlot.

chaikwa.


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## Gitman66 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Thank You!*

I've called the guy and let him know that I'm not interested at this time. I'm also going to pay more attention to my land and contact the MI Dept of Natural Resources. I'd like to thank all of you for your quick and helpful responses, you've made my decision easy and, more importantly, painless.
G


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## Nickrosis (Feb 21, 2006)

Chaikwa has a really good point - be sure to look into that.


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## Lumberjacked (Feb 21, 2006)

*Get a forester*

Thats called Hi-Grading and thats a big NO NO. Basically hes taking out the biggest and best trees your property has to offer, so what that boils down to is crappy genetics for the rest of your forest life. If you really want to log out your woods then either hire a forester or call a cooperative and have them send out a state forester to look at your land. But by no means ever hire some guy that comes and says he will give you $X for you trees, because 99 times out 100 it is too good to be true and you will get screwed without even knowing it. I would do a prescribed thinning to release some of the codominents and to encourage regeneration, you also want to take out some of the mature age class (16in +) to make the operation profitable. Your goal for timber production should be to create an uneven aged stand, this will not only allow you continuous harvest it will bring diversity to your stand.


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## sheisonthemoon (Feb 22, 2006)

Here in Arkansas the department of forestry has consultants that will come to look at your property , and inform you of exactly if not close to what your timber is worth.I am not sure if there is a small fee but to speak to someone who is on your side would definately be worth it.


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## MS-310 (Feb 22, 2006)

Lumberjacked said:


> Thats called Hi-Grading and thats a big NO NO. Basically hes taking out the biggest and best trees your property has to offer, so what that boils down to is crappy genetics for the rest of your forest life. If you really want to log out your woods then either hire a forester or call a cooperative and have them send out a state forester to look at your land. But by no means ever hire some guy that comes and says he will give you $X for you trees, because 99 times out 100 it is too good to be true and you will get screwed without even knowing it. I would do a prescribed thinning to release some of the codominents and to encourage regeneration, you also want to take out some of the mature age class (16in +) to make the operation profitable. Your goal for timber production should be to create an uneven aged stand, this will not only allow you continuous harvest it will bring diversity to your stand.



If every logger was like you (lumberjacked) we will have "some" nice lumber in the next 100 years. Lumber is going down the tubes (not the prices the grade of it)


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## [email protected] (Feb 22, 2006)

*Maples*

For what it is worth,when you dont know it
pays to find someone who does instead of
going with blind chance.Good show boys.:greenchainsaw:


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## TipTop (Feb 22, 2006)

hard maple pays 5500 dollars per thousand for veneer one16 inch log 12 feet long will pay 400.00 dollars one log tri axle truck with 5000 feet will pay about 28000.00 for veneer WOW.


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## Husky288XP (Feb 22, 2006)

Thats veneer, not F1, F2, F3, tie/timber, firewood, or pulp. Plus all four faces have to be clean, not an easy task for a tree.


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## TipTop (Feb 22, 2006)

OK 81 trees 100 years old not all logs would be veneer some with 3 2 clear faces and some pallet . 81 but logs 16 inches would be a load 10 to 12 feet long not all veneer some with one defect. second cut logs 1 to 2 defects thats two MOORE loads. plus pallet now about 15 cord Larry The Logger :sword: :sword:


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## doggonetrees (Mar 6, 2006)

*stolen timber*

Does anyone know the proper recourse that I should take on the following problem? Story goes- returning from a deployment last Feb, went to our incorporated tree farm to find my uncle having some pine thinning done. The trees were 25 year old crp trees. Per the contract that he had, no hardwoods were to be cut. When approached about why he was cutting the timber he told me it was none of my business. To cut timber entails having a meeting with all members - myself and brother, my grandmother and uncle. When the others were asked they had on knowledge of what was going on. He sold the timber and opened an account in the farms name( in a different bank) with himself as the only one that could write checks on it. The loggers didn't do a title search on the land-took his word that it was his alone. They also cut all the sellable hardwoods, and cut 60 feet outside our fenceline on another persons property 300 yards long swath. I have retained a law firm to try to get things right before I deploy again in July. Any input would be deeply appreciated, as I can present this to my lawyers. Also, my grandma is 98 yrs young and needs the partial income from the proceeds to stay where she is at. Thanks.


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## TimberPig (Mar 6, 2006)

doggonetrees,

At that stage, you are pretty much left with legal recourse as your only means to get satisfaction over the flagrant violations. As you've already done, find a good law firm that has experience in similar cases if possible and take him to court. Since was the only one who stood to benefit from his actions, and he was acting along without the knowledge of any of the other partners, I would suspect that he is likely going to end up losing far more than he stood to gain from his actions.

You should also advise your neighbours of his tresspass and theft, so that they can seek legal redress as they see fit as well. Just make sure this is done with the advise of your lawyer, to ensure that his unlawful actions do not end with your neighbours trying to sue you and the other partners as well, as this could result in the loss of your land in a judgment for them. The biggest thing is to do everything by process of law and cover your ass on everything. Your lawyer will be your best resource in this process.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 6, 2006)

This is criminal fraud. Hang him.


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## doggonetrees (Mar 18, 2006)

The suits are in the works. Contacted the adjacent landowners, and they have gotten their own lawyers to start proceedings on both my uncle and the timber buyers- with no harm or foul toward our farm. My law firm is going for punitive damages against the purchaser for all hardwoods cut against contract- not sure price yet, but includes replacement seedlings of same type trees. I'll never get to see them at their grandure that the old ones were, but oh well. Uncle has to repay money stolen from farm and sign over all rights to future farm income, or face jail time. We have a livestock and timber theft bureau here, and that was the course they suggested. Thanks.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 18, 2006)

Good for you! It takes some guts to play hardball with family sometimes, but sometimes that's what's needed. He sure didn't ACT like "family" means anything to him.


And, by the way, thanks for your service to our country.


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 19, 2006)

[email protected] ya'll are hard on loggers!:angry2: From the way this thread has gone you would think we are all crooks! You are offering advice on the price of a man's timber and you haven't even seen it nor do you know what current prices are in that area. Maple in my area is worth $300mbf tops NOT the $5,000mbf mentioned before so if someone offered me $4,500 for 81 maples on MY property I'd ask "when ya wanna start!" after I got my $$$ of course but hey what can I say down here thats a sh!t load of $$ for a sale that size. I must say that I am extreamly offened by this the attitude of this thread. I've never cut across a property line nor stolen timber, to listen to ya'll talk you'd think all loggers are crooks! If you've gotten ripped of in the past then most likely that YOUR [email protected] fault for not doing YOUR home work on the guy you hired! You wouldn't hire some one to do a major repair to your home or car without checking the guy out first so why would you do any differant with your woods???

I make all of my landowners mark their property lines and make THEM responsible for ANY mistakes in the location of the line. I further have them agree to hold me harmless in the event of a boundry line dispute and you know what???? I've NEVER had a problem because of it!! Landowners are just going to have to get over the fact that their timber is not worth what it was two years ago (at least in my area anyway) because of the rising cost of fuel. The mills aren't paying any more for the logs (they're paying less acutually) as thats the place that they can controll their costs, same with the loggers. The only place a logger makes money is at the stump! I'll say it again, AT THE STUMP! We have to make a living to. I fully agree that if you have no experinance dealing with timber that you should get a forester in there to help you determine what you've got and what the fair market value is. Just remember whats woth $1,000 might be worth only $750 to the next guy, everyone looks at things differantly and has differant operating costs.


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 19, 2006)

Further more how many of you that were offering advice have any PERSONAL (not second or third party,well my granddad had 20 acres logged..... none of that crap! YOUR first hand experiance only) experiance in dealing with timber sales and logging. I don't mean cutting a few trees on your property and getting them out yourself either! NOW lets have a show of hands!:angry2:


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## Newfie (Mar 19, 2006)

Deep breaths, Ryan!

Loggers are like any other profession. Some are great, some are crooks. Unfortunately in our society we only b!tch when we've been screwed, so you rarely hear about the good guys out there. There are a few loggers in my parts who ought to be in jail.


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 19, 2006)

Ryan Willock said:


> Further more how many of you that were offering advice have any PERSONAL (not second or third party,well my granddad had 20 acres logged..... none of that crap! YOUR first hand experiance only) experiance in dealing with timber sales and logging. I don't mean cutting a few trees on your property and getting them out yourself either! NOW lets have a show of hands!:angry2:



Personal experience no. Have seen several lawsuits covering NE Wa and N Id in the news where timber was outright stolen by ignoring bouindaries. Several of them so obvious that there was no possibility of using the "I didn't know that was the boundary". That is over the past 30 years.

Does it happen? Only someone with blinders on would deny it.

Is it common - no.

Harry K


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## doggonetrees (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, seems I have ruffled someones feathers with this thread. If you will look at my bio, you would see that I have been involved in the tree farm business since 1990, when I inherited my fathers share of our already existing tree farm. Was established enough to get the timber cruised and have been actively involved in coordinating the mechanical thinning, aerial and boom spraying for privet hedge infestation, and re-seeding the thinned timber. Have done the leg work on all but this last cutting, which was done WHILE I WAS DEPLOYED!! That said, we also were an active timber purchaser and cutting company until we saw the light and got lucky enough to get out of the purchase/sales of timber tracts. The boundaries on our property are clearly marked with a 9' firelane maintained for control burning around the perimeter of our property lines( 460 acres ). The uncle in question was involved in part of the placement of this firelane. All I can say is if it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk- don't get downwind of it 'cause it probably is a skunk.


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## wmthrower (Mar 24, 2006)

I'll tell you what really bothers me around where I live, and it happens more than just once in a blue moon, is when a logger asks if I'm interested in selling my logs. He tells me what I have on my property. How the he** does he know what my logs are? You can't come on my property without permission. And yes, this did happen to me, not a third cousin's friend. My woodlot is 2000' feet from the road and over a hill. You can't see that from your truck driving by.
It happened just yesterday to my cousin as well. He's about 2 miles away. I know that all loggers aren't crooks, but with the price of logs around here, everybody and their brother is a logger now and most landowners are trying to get a quick buck so there is a lot of bad practices being performed.


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## lxt (Mar 24, 2006)

Ryan,

I think we all understand the need for logging, we may not understand the detailed finances or other aspects of this trade. BUT what we do know(personally am witnessing right now in my area) is the total disrespect that many in your trade have for the property/property owners. The company logging in my area leaves the tops lay wherever(nice in the woods, but not by roadsides leading to your local schools) adjacent property owners are irate due to the felling of trees with no regard to the ones not being harvested. RESULTING in severe canopy damage, partial uprootings, severe bark & trunk damage, ETC.... Its a complete eyesore these loggers are leavin in my area. BOTTOM line they get their money, we get to see their mess and try to repair what they`ve screwed up. The TWP`s around here are going to impose regulations for loggin, hopefully this will help!!!
Take Care, Be Safe LXT.........................


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