# Another newbie



## gremlin (Jun 12, 2007)

Howdy folks. My name is Dan and i have always been interested in tree climbing and arborist work. Im looking to start doing some work of my own. I live in NW Arkansas and there is a high demand for arborist work in the next town over from me. Is there any advice that i should follow or anyone in the area that would be willing to teach me a few things??? Thanks for you time


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## Sand Dollar (Jun 12, 2007)

*Gremlin*

Welcome to the site, these folks know so much. I wish I could help however I am not in that area. hang in there watch and learn lots of knowledge on this site.
Good Luck


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## DGG (Jun 13, 2007)

Dan - Welcome to the party.

If I were in your situation, a person just starting out in this arborist career, I'd try to learn all I could about the profession. I'd try to hookup with a good local firm that will teach you the basics.

I would attend some basic night courses in arborist/landscaping at the local schools if any are available in the area. As you know when starting out you won't make much money (because you don't know much are not that productive yet), but the time spent learning the various basic techniques will be time well spent. This information you learn will be with you for a lifetime, long after the paycheck is spent. The quicker you learn, the more money you will be able to make.

If you already have the basics and experience and you decide to go into your own business, I think it would be good to take some basic continuing ed courses at the local high school in basic bookkeeping, business law, and employee relations. These courses will probably not be a much fun as tree climbing/felling, but are very necessary if you run a business.

Just remember, the important thing when taking these course is not getting a good grade. What is most important is learning useful knowledge to help you do a better job.

Lastly, don't forget "safety". Red Cross first aid training classes would also me very helpful. I'm sure Arkansas has rules that professional arborists follow to keep them in one piece (probably learned over time the hard way).

Good luck! It should be a great adventure! Let us know how it works out for you.


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## Sand Dollar (Jun 13, 2007)

*Dgg*

Wish I said that! Great Advise


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## gremlin (Jun 13, 2007)

Sand Dollar said:


> Welcome to the site, these folks know so much. I wish I could help however I am not in that area. hang in there watch and learn lots of knowledge on this site.
> Good Luck



thanks sand dollar. i have done alot of reading on the sight and have already learned alot


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## gremlin (Jun 13, 2007)

DGG said:


> Dan - Welcome to the party.
> 
> If I were in your situation, a person just starting out in this arborist career, I'd try to learn all I could about the profession. I'd try to hookup with a good local firm that will teach you the basics.
> 
> ...


As of right now i have a full time job and plan on doing this on the side for a while. it may not even be a career move for me but its something i know i would enjoy. I have checked into classes here and there only given twice a year and of course it just ended. I have in the past owned my own business so i have all the legally needed classes if i do start a business in this field. I have all the nec. gear saws saddle rope gaffs ect. I have no problem what so ever climbing a tree. Just trying to learn how to properly and safely put a tree on the ground. And what to expect in situations while in that process. Thanks alot for your time and information it is much appreciated


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## gremlin (Jun 13, 2007)

DGG said:


> Dan - Welcome to the party.
> 
> If I were in your situation, a person just starting out in this arborist career, I'd try to learn all I could about the profession. I'd try to hookup with a good local firm that will teach you the basics.
> 
> ...


As of right now i have a full time job and plan on doing this on the side for a while. it may not even be a career move for me but its something i know i would enjoy. I have checked into classes here and there only given twice a year and of course it just ended. I have in the past owned my own business so i have all the legally needed classes if i do start a business in this field. I have all the nec. gear saws saddle rope gaffs ect. I have no problem what so ever climbing a tree. Just trying to learn how to properly and safely put a tree on the ground. And what to expect in situations while in that process. Thanks alot for your time and information it is much appreciated


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## gremlin (Jun 14, 2007)

*concerned*

I have been asked to drop a tree this weekend. I feel i can accomplish this. But i am concerned bieng that this will be the first tree i have attempted to drop from the top down. Its right beside a fence and has more than enough room in the oppisite direction to be dropped. Except it is too tall. So obviously it should be topped a little at a time till its short enough to do. I am very confortable climbing trees and have cut many down deep in the woods. I know there is a difference. But i feel this is accomlishable. Would any of you think this is too difficult of a task for a semi beginner?? Or should i just let it all hang out and go for it. I have plenty of sharp minded help to stay on the ground and help direct falling debri. If u feel im just crazy or its not such a great idea feel free to say so. Im thick skinned and can take the critisism. After all it is my life ya know.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 14, 2007)

gremlin said:


> I have been asked to drop a tree this weekend. I feel i can accomplish this. But i am concerned bieng that this will be the first tree i have attempted to drop from the top down. Its right beside a fence and has more than enough room in the oppisite direction to be dropped. Except it is too tall. So obviously it should be topped a little at a time till its short enough to do. I am very confortable climbing trees and have cut many down deep in the woods. I know there is a difference. But i feel this is accomlishable. Would any of you think this is too difficult of a task for a semi beginner?? Or should i just let it all hang out and go for it. I have plenty of sharp minded help to stay on the ground and help direct falling debri. If u feel im just crazy or its not such a great idea feel free to say so. Im thick skinned and can take the critisism. After all it is my life ya know.



Actually sounds like a pretty good tree for a newbie. Climb up and set a rope. Come down a few feet and notch and backcut it-just like dropping a short tree on the ground. Don't yank on the rope, just keep tension on it in case you mess up on your cut. Since you have cut trees before, should be no big deal. Send rope back up and repeat. The biggest thing to think about is the ride. As a first timer, it may surprise you a bit how much a tree can travel. Simply make sure you are double tied in and your spikes are well set. I often double wrap my climbing line just in case. Simply go with the flow and you will be fine. Good luck.


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## gremlin (Jun 14, 2007)

*first time*

Thanks beowulf your advise will be used. I have stacked cell phone towers in the past so i think ill know what to expect as far as the tree moving but maybe not ha. Guess im gonna find out. Im pretty solid with my nerves so i think ill be fine. Thanks for the advise!!!


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## lawson's tree s (Jun 15, 2007)

welcome to arboristsite!!!


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## pbtree (Jun 15, 2007)

Gremlin, welcome aboard!

Anyway to post a picture of the tree you are mentioning?


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## gremlin (Jun 15, 2007)

*pics and thanks*

Thanks to everyone that has welcomed me to the site. I will try to get photos of the tree on the site asap. The job has been pushed off till next week so i have a little more time. It seems as though it will be a pretty easy tree all things considered. I almost hate to say that being im the new guy here. Im honestly not trying to simplify anything you pros do. Thanks again for the advice all and the welcomings. You folks rock


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## treeseer (Jun 15, 2007)

I think rebelman is in your area. why not pm or email him?

good advice by all so far, but beowulf forgot about advising your tip below your cut. Honest, I saw one guy fly when he was tied into the piece he was cutting. Not pretty.

Low and slow, dude.


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## gremlin (Jun 18, 2007)

*pics*

I doubt i will have a chance to post pics of the tree im gong to remove before i do the job. Its a coworker and he lives a ways away. I plan on having several people with me helping on the ground and some taking pics. So i wont be able to post them before hand but i will get some of the process and ill be sure to post them. Thanks guys for the help and advise. Any last minute advice??:newbie:


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## beowulf343 (Jun 18, 2007)

treeseer said:


> good advice by all so far, but beowulf forgot about advising your tip below your cut. Honest, I saw one guy fly when he was tied into the piece he was cutting. Not pretty.



Good point. I always assume people have common sense and i'm always amazed at how many don't. 

But you are right-i have seen newbies that have wanted to do this. I have to tell them wait a minute and think about what they are about to do. I think they have so much going on (the height, whether their knot will hold, not dropping the saw, and the 101 other things that we don't even think about any more) that they get overwelmed and forget the basics. It's just so far outside the realm of what most people find normal that they can't process it all. Go slow and double/triple check before you cut(or until you have a couple years under your belt and it is second nature.) Although i'll still triple check things if i get into a tricky situation. It's the simple things that will get you every time.

Huh-sorry, just rambling on as random thoughts pop into my head.


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## gremlin (Jun 18, 2007)

*feedback*

I do appreciate all the feedback form everyone. Im gonna hire a pro that is a friend of a friend of mine to help walk me through the drop. I feel good about it but i love life too much to let a rookie mistake or pride get in the way. He is liscened and insured. I have not met him yet so i hope he is pretty patient. I take new things pretty slow. Especially if it involves my life. So ill get the pics up asap when im done. Thanks again everyone. Its much appreciated
:chainsawguy:


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## gremlin (Jun 21, 2007)

*humbled*

Hey folks. Well i had the day off today so i called Rick (the pro who taught me alot today) and dropped the tree i have been talking about. Along with four others. I tell u guys what I have a new found RESPECT for you arborists. I have climbed trees and cell towers and logged trees but never until today have i climbed a tree and topped it. Holy :censored: i am smoked. I think that is the hardest i have ever worked in my life. My legs feel as though someone beat me with the trunks of the trees i dropped. WOW!! But all and all it was a good day and a successful one. Rick stayed on the ground and walked me through everything. No damages to any property unless u consider my legs. I did however have a few problems that i would like to ask your opinions on. My gaffs just didnt wanna cooperate with me on the high side of the trees where the trunk was much smaller. They wanted to roll to the fronts of my calves. Why is this?? And i have one more section that needs to be done. I think its gonna be tricky. Rick the pro offered to do it but we ran out of time. The section is approx. 60 feet high and probably 25 inches around. It leans way out not so its not so much growing straight up. The homeowner does not want it cut at the base. A bucket truck is out of the question due to lack of accessability. How would i go about dropping this section. I dont think i would feel confortable bieng that far out.

In the end i learned alot!! And realized just how hard you fellas work everyday. My hats off to all of you!!!


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## masiman (Jun 22, 2007)

gremlin said:


> Holy :censored: i am smoked. I think that is the hardest i have ever worked in my life. My legs feel as though someone beat me with the trunks of the trees i dropped. WOW!!
> 
> My gaffs just didnt wanna cooperate with me on the high side of the trees where the trunk was much smaller. They wanted to roll to the fronts of my calves. Why is this?? And i have one more section that needs to be done. I think its gonna be tricky. Rick the pro offered to do it but we ran out of time. The section is approx. 60 feet high and probably 25 inches around. It leans way out not so its not so much growing straight up. The homeowner does not want it cut at the base.



 I have not been doing this very long and I come down sopping wet. Jeans and shirt soaked through. I can almost wring sweat out of them. I have had to stop before from the leg pain of the spurs getting to be too much. Last weekend was the first one I finished where I felt like I could walk around and talk normally after I came off the tree. It is extremely hard work. I don't know how the pro's do it day in and day out. I think I could do 2 maybe 3 a week, but no more. I think some on here sometimes do more than 1 per day. Thanks, I'll keep my day job .

What spurs do you have? What pads do you have on them? My guess is you have the L or T pads. That turned out to be a huge part of my pain and discomfort. My Buckingham spur/L pad combo's were rolling toward my calves. It sounds like yours are rolling toward your shins. In any case, it is not good. I have heard and read that the Super Pads, Cushion wraps or Aluminum "Cadillac" pads are the best of the bunch. I do like my new Cushion wraps. Sorry if you wasted money on the L or T pads. Check your spurs. There are right and left, at least for the Buckinghams. I looked at mine when I first got them and thought they were symmetrical. However while swapping in my new Cushion wraps I noticed an L and R stamped on the shanks. I don't recall seeing them when I originally set them up and could not tell you if I had them on correctly. I still notice the spurs but I can definitely climb alot longer with alot less pain now. But I also might be more experienced to know to rest on the rope or a branch whenever possible. Take something to drink up with you too for the longer days. I just picked up a camelbak like thing. I have been a bike rider for years and never had one. I am looking forward to using this one.

I have found it hard to get good position once the spar thins out, I'll guess at 6" diameter and under. The only thing I can think of that would help is if I had a safety TIP above me to help secure me from rotating around the spar.

From the sounds of it, let the pro do it. It will give you a chance to observe his technique.

Congrats on taking good precautions and making it through.


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## newguy18 (Jun 22, 2007)

*Who agrees?*

i found that cutting the top out with the Humboldt notch and a back cut level with the face cut leaving a small hinge leaves less abrubtly than the traditional felling techniques.


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## joesawer (Jun 22, 2007)

newguy18 said:


> i found that cutting the top out with the Humboldt notch and a back cut level with the face cut leaving a small hinge leaves less abrubtly than the traditional felling techniques.



Good job, grass hopper.
I do not use a humbolt up in a tree very much, but some times it has its advantages. 
The big wide open face cut and the big hinge some people use can cause a big ride. 
What happens is, as the weight of the top moves the direction of the fall it pushes the uncut tree in the opposite direction (one reason the back cut should be slightly higher than the face), then as the face closes it pulls the part you are attached to along with it until the hinge breaks. The hinge breaking suddenly releases the tree and can cause a pretty violent action in the remaining tree.
Another good one is cutting a lot of weight of a horizontal or leaning limb. and having it snap up as the load is suddenly released.

Ummm............. Most modern techniques are not very traditional.


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## gremlin (Jun 23, 2007)

*gear*

Thanks masiman for the input. I just bought these spurs and they are buckinghams with T pads. I honestly never bothered to check if there was a left or right. Im gonna feel pretty silly if there is a difference. I will be looking into a different set of pads. Just not enough padding there for me. As far as the tops of the trees go i just didnt feel confortable. Not so much with the hights or the tree moving but my body position. I felt like i was walking on my own feet. Spurs were so close togethere that i didnt feel stable. The pro that was working with me said i was doing a great job when i decided to come down. Just didnt have a good feeling ya know.

All in all it was a successful job. Im happy with it and proud of myself. And very very sore today.
Thanks again for the input


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## woodchux (Jun 23, 2007)

I've got the cheapest set of buckingham spurs and pads that they sell. They are VERY uncomfortable to say the least. Last year I started using soccer shin pads under my pant legs and the difference is like day and night. I can stand on spurs all day with little discomfort.
As far as feeling unstable on a small spar, I'll take my life line and cinch off SRT to the spar and lean against the split tail for stability.


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## clearance (Jun 23, 2007)

Unstable? Wrap your steelcore around the stem and stomp in your spurs.


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## masiman (Jun 23, 2007)

clearance said:


> Unstable? Wrap your steelcore around the stem and stomp in your spurs.



You know, I have seen them do the extra wraps many times in the ISA training vids but they did not mention the reason. I assumed it was for better fall protection, I did not think of the extra bracing that provided. I will have to try that out next time. I have been stomping in the spurs though.



woodchux said:


> As far as feeling unstable on a small spar, I'll take my life line and cinch off SRT to the spar and lean against the split tail for stability.



Woodchux, are you saying your cinching your lifeline using a running bowline or some other method? When I get to where I can start chunking down the spar I tie my safety to my harness with a butterfly knot (any other suggestions?) and then put in a running bowline around the spar as my second safety if I can't get a nearby tree TIP. I have seen the short pieces of rope I think at Wesspur that you can use to tie both sides of the lanyard together creating a tight loop like what clearance described, but you don't have to unhook to take the wrap. Not the best description but hopefully someone can clean that up for me. I was asking about the bowline because if what I described is what you meant then that is not quite working for whatever reason.


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## masiman (Jun 23, 2007)

Gremlin, one other thing about those pads gremlin. The only reason I was able to move on from those L pads is because of another AS member. I wrote my tale of woe like yours. Someone PM'd me out of state and out of the blue and offered to send me an extra pair of their Cushion wrap. I had never interacted with the man before. Wanted to send them to me on his own dime. Try them out a few times and send them back to him. Heck he even threw in another set of pads that he told me to keep.

My next tree using those things was far better than what I had been able to do before. I still had some pain, but it took longer and it was not nearly as sharp. Not to mention it was less dangerous. I can't thank that guy enough. Others have imparted hard earned experience and guided me to different techniques. Some directly from my questions others from past posts.

If you keep doing this kind of work, you will have plenty more pieces of equipment that you will make mistakes on. And hopefully they will only be financial mistakes .

Check your PM's.

Thanks B.


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## gremlin (Jun 23, 2007)

*thanks*

Thanks to all who have offered advice. I am deffinately looking into something more confortable. Those spurs liked to have killed me in the few hours i worked up there. I must find something diff.


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## woodchux (Jun 24, 2007)

masiman said:


> Woodchux, are you saying your cinching your lifeline using a running bowline or some other method? When I get to where I can start chunking down the spar I tie my safety to my harness with a butterfly knot (any other suggestions?) and then put in a running bowline around the spar as my second safety if I can't get a nearby tree TIP. I have seen the short pieces of rope I think at Wesspur that you can use to tie both sides of the lanyard together creating a tight loop like what clearance described, but you don't have to unhook to take the wrap. Not the best description but hopefully someone can clean that up for me. I was asking about the bowline because if what I described is what you meant then that is not quite working for whatever reason.



I use rope snaps on the ends of my lifeline and cinch the spar with the rope snap. Like clearance said take a wrap with a steelcore stomp in the spurs and cinch down your lifeline tight( running bowlin is fine ) . Leaning on the splittail gives you a third point to lean against and helps stabilize you.


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## clearance (Jun 24, 2007)

woodchux said:


> I use rope snaps on the ends of my lifeline and cinch the spar with the rope snap. Like clearance said take a wrap with a steelcore stomp in the spurs and cinch down your lifeline tight( running bowlin is fine ) . Leaning on the splittail gives you a third point to lean against and helps stabilize you.



That setup is more than I use. I just climb with a steelcore scare strap (lanyard), thats it. On removals I usually keep my rope coiled up, clipped to my saddle. If I have to come down, or get gas, my rope gets used, if I can strip and chunk back down to the ground it stays coiled up. This way it doesn't get branches on it, pulled through the chipper or cut. To avoid getting flung about I cut leaning tops just like I fall leaners on the ground. I also use a shallow undercut for tops so they land flat. My spurs are Buckingham straight shank with 3" gaffs, they have the aluminum pads. When you are cutting or tying knots, as others have said, think about it and take your time.


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## gremlin (Jul 11, 2007)

*soccer pads*



woodchux said:


> I've got the cheapest set of buckingham spurs and pads that they sell. They are VERY uncomfortable to say the least. Last year I started using soccer shin pads under my pant legs and the difference is like day and night. I can stand on spurs all day with little discomfort.
> As far as feeling unstable on a small spar, I'll take my life line and cinch off SRT to the spar and lean against the split tail for stability.



woodchux i gave the soccer pads a shot over the weeken and it worked very well. i was able to stay in the tree for two hrs before i got unconfortable. It was a huge inprovement but when the pain hit it really hit. But anyhhow thanks for the advice it worked very well!!!


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## Fireaxman (Jul 13, 2007)

woodchux said:


> I use rope snaps on the ends of my lifeline and cinch the spar with the rope snap. Like clearance said take a wrap with a steelcore stomp in the spurs and cinch down your lifeline tight( running bowlin is fine ) . Leaning on the splittail gives you a third point to lean against and helps stabilize you.



Amen. Using a setup like woodchux' made a BIG difference for me in how comfortable I feel on small spars, and in how well I take the ride removing a top. I use a running bowline instead of the snap woodchux has chosen, just because someone warned me about loading a snap across the axis. Smaller the spar, more the load against the axis of the snap - but, a 170 lb climber on a 6000 lb snap probably would not be at risk. I also use a Petzle ID or Stop instead of the Blakes, thinking the mechanical descender is less likely to jam if I get cut or stung and need to bail out. Woodchux, does the Blakes give you any trouble in that kind of SRT descent?


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## hornett22 (Jul 13, 2007)

*spend the money on Geckos .........*

unless you are into the pain.i have the buckingham titaniums as well and the aren't bad with the velcro wrap pads.i think the geckos are the way to go though and they are alot less than the buckinghams i have.


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## gremlin (Jul 13, 2007)

*gaffs*

how well do the velcro wraps work. are they stable when the pressure is on. velcro just kinda scares me a little


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## woodchux (Jul 13, 2007)

Fireaxman said:


> Amen. Using a setup like woodchux' made a BIG difference for me in how comfortable I feel on small spars, and in how well I take the ride removing a top. I use a running bowline instead of the snap woodchux has chosen, just because someone warned me about loading a snap across the axis. Smaller the spar, more the load against the axis of the snap - but, a 170 lb climber on a 6000 lb snap probably would not be at risk. I also use a Petzle ID or Stop instead of the Blakes, thinking the mechanical descender is less likely to jam if I get cut or stung and need to bail out. Woodchux, does the Blakes give you any trouble in that kind of SRT descent?



I use a figure 8 just below the blakes so there is no binding. The blakes is just a backup. 

Try a biner on the end of your lifeline if you dont trust a rope snap. It makes it soooo much faster than retying the running bowline as you work the tree.


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## woodchux (Jul 13, 2007)

gremlin said:


> woodchux i gave the soccer pads a shot over the weeken and it worked very well. i was able to stay in the tree for two hrs before i got unconfortable. It was a huge inprovement but when the pain hit it really hit. But anyhhow thanks for the advice it worked very well!!!



I use the pads that dont have straps. They come with a sock that holds the pads in place. The pads with straps move around much more.


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## gremlin (Jul 13, 2007)

so the velcro wraps are pretty stable?? do they move around like the T or L pads?? I just dont wanna be that high in the air and have to worry about my gaffs moving. there is enough to worry about as it is


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## hornett22 (Jul 24, 2007)

*they never scared me but now that i think about it............*



gremlin said:


> how well do the velcro wraps work. are they stable when the pressure is on. velcro just kinda scares me a little



i can see where you'd be coming from.never had a problem with them other than the price.


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## changetires (Jul 24, 2007)

I use the super pads on a set of buckinghams 3". I havent climbed in 5 months and was able to stay in the tree for 3 hours without my feet and legs hurting. Found out after touching down that I was severely out of shape and that I really need to do some rec climbing on the days off to keep in shape. The lower humidity on Saturday morning here in south Alabama was a big help also. But I still try to keep on hand a set of padding or foam to put in my socks to help with the rubbing.

Ed


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 24, 2007)

kills my knees when i come down


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## Magnum783 (Jul 24, 2007)

I second some of what clarence said double wrap your flipline. I do use a rope too but I use an friction saver they show you how to do it in the tree climbers companion. Also as far as pads I use the velcro pads and I a big dude and they never seem to give me any fits. My buddy is a lineman and climbs on straight up bashlin pads and tried mine one day and fell in love with them. Also my wesco's help a ton too. I use one knee to help stabalize when I am working. When I fall a top finish the top with my hand saw that allows me to brace myself with the other. I do this only when it is going to be a bumpy ride. I do a lot pines which require lots of hight so if it is tall and I need to rope it down I make sure to tell the guys to let it run and brace myself good. Keep posting your questions make them specific and we will be able to help answer them better.
Jared


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## newguy18 (Jul 24, 2007)

Fireaxman said:


> Amen. Using a setup like woodchux' made a BIG difference for me in how comfortable I feel on small spars, and in how well I take the ride removing a top. I use a running bowline instead of the snap woodchux has chosen, just because someone warned me about loading a snap across the axis. Smaller the spar, more the load against the axis of the snap - but, a 170 lb climber on a 6000 lb snap probably would not be at risk. I also use a Petzle ID or Stop instead of the Blakes, thinking the mechanical descender is less likely to jam if I get cut or stung and need to bail out. Woodchux, does the Blakes give you any trouble in that kind of SRT descent?



All i do is stomp one spur in and bring my other knee up to push my self away from the trunk and when i can i tie into another tree with my climb line.The only time i wrap my saftey is when i am on limbs that are bare.


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## gremlin (Jul 24, 2007)

I think after hearing from some of u pros i will give the velcros a shot. got nothing to lose at this point. still a little nervous bout velcro so ill probly just practice witht them a few feet off the ground till i feel good bout it.


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## gremlin (Jul 26, 2007)

*removal*

I trimmed a few trees through out the week and i gotta say i feel good about myself. For starters everything went well. They were pretty small spars and i felt "ok" in them. The owner of the trees wanted them down all together and i talked him out of it. Someone told him it would be best to just take them down all together. All he wanted was for his satelite to work and the limbs were in the way. So i got up there and trimmed the tree and he was very pleased. Felt good bout that too. Accomplishing what the customer wanted without killing any trees.


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