# Power/Telephone poles, cutting of



## northmanlogging (Dec 16, 2013)

Some new ground for me, have a number of decent doug fir and ceder on this job, have one outfit coming out friday to take a look.

Like everything else lately I'll be learning by doing, however a few hints and suggestions won't go unheaded...

The falling part I get, get em on the ground in one piece and buck em to their lengths blah blah blah...

What I'm more concerned with is what to expect from their buyer, how much they may or may not be paying, etc mostly whats the going rate these days to see if I'm getting hosed or not. There are at least 2 pole yards near here, probably more, so I'm ok with calling in the other guys if it sounds hinky. And should I go ahead and get me a 70-100' spencer. (the 50' has been more then ample up to now)


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## twochains (Dec 16, 2013)

I was just talking with my boss about the power pole market after the ice storm we just had. I haven't cut any since this Spring, I usually only get those jobs when cutting further North of me, like up in Missouri. A guy from the electric company comes out and numbers the length code on the tree. The longest I have ever cut were 53' and mostly 33'.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 16, 2013)

they don't pay any more than sawlogs here. to make matters worse, they steady putting up steel power poles.


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## twochains (Dec 16, 2013)

Not to mention I think they hold yer check a couple weeks also! Ours pay more than saw logs but it's supply and demand here!


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 16, 2013)

north, i'd say do what ever the buyers want, if it pays right. sorry I can't be of more help to ya here. mebbe the guys your way will chime in shortly.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 16, 2013)

The mills hold the checks a while here anyway, just as long as I get paid I'm happy.


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## madhatte (Dec 16, 2013)

From a forestry perspective, I recommend having at least a 75' Spencer so that you can measure heights at 66' with a topo-scale clino. That's a distance that will get you up into the top of most normal second-growth trees in these parts. You can do it with a %-scale clino at 50', but your accuracy suffers because the increments are so small.


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## slowp (Dec 16, 2013)

The only thing I know is to make sure you can get that extra long load out without taking out fences, buildings, other vehicles, etc.


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## lmbrman (Dec 16, 2013)

I just had a buyer come out on my job, he offered $140/cord on the landing for 40' pine, 13" dbh. They had to be durn nice. Made me nervous that they paid by the cord, yet they weigh scale the stuff. The conversion sounded fuzzy to me. I also wondered how long it would sit on my landing drying out and reducing my pay while I wait for their truck. Then wait for a check.

I have a good small pine(6+") market here, many mills in the 10mile radius, avg pay for 8' material right now is $150/cord delivered and trucking is easy that close. Plus they let me stick scale on delivery and they pay on the spot. Less sorting is also a big plus for me. I suspect sometimes they pay good for poles depending on yur local options. I am pretty lucky for my options right now.

-subject to change


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## redprospector (Dec 16, 2013)

Unfortunately that's one of the last markets left here. Buyers from Mexico want "telephone poles" to be sent south of the border.
They are looking for poles that are 25' 6" long,  with a butt no bigger than 13", and a top no less than 8". They say they'll pay $8 each in the deck, or $10 each hauled off the mountain. They do hold your check, I know one guy that they've been holding a check for almost a year.  Not much recourse when your logs are in a whole other country.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 16, 2013)

Ok, so let me limber up my fingers to type a nice falling dissertation based on my massive experience and stunning command of complex falling techn.........WTF?! Are you seriously telling me telephone poles come from trees??? I'd figured they were some sort of pressed wood fiber product. Good luck with that NM


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## madhatte (Dec 16, 2013)

Some telephone poles ARE composite products now -- there are 3 I know of in my neck of the woods.


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## lmbrman (Dec 16, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Unfortunately that's one of the last markets left here. Buyers from Mexico want "telephone poles" to be sent south of the border.
> They are looking for poles that are 25' 6" long,  with a butt no bigger than 13", and a top no less than 8". They say they'll pay $8 each in the deck, or $10 each hauled off the mountain. They do hold your check, I know one guy that they've been holding a check for almost a year.  Not much recourse when your logs are in a whole other country.



I think the check will eventually come from his uncle in Nigeria maybe ?


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 16, 2013)

years ago we had a piling market, paid like a dollar a running foot per tree. 80'+ trees, that was good money back then and it'd be good now. well, wish in one hand...............


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## redprospector (Dec 16, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> years ago we had a piling market, paid like a dollar a running foot per tree. 80'+ trees, that was good money back then and it'd be good now. well, wish in one hand...............


Spit in the other?


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## OlympicYJ (Dec 16, 2013)

As of this summer cedar poles were bringing a premium. Can't remember what the price was. But it is definitely worth it. Cruised a sale wit poles on it and we were going to market the poles instead of running them through our mill. Now that's said, you only have two options. Bell or McFarland Cascade. Call em both and have em come out and look at it. If it's small enough they should be able to mark the poles or else show you what they want. Also I believe the pole yards cover the trucking too. They should provide you wit a pole card for when you make em.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 17, 2013)

I'd be dealing with Stella Jones, out of Arlington, or another outfit out of Conway I can't remember the name of. From all accounts poles go for damn good money.

as far as access the only hitch is the nice tight switch back at the begging of the property, the rest is mostly a straight shot to town... mostly... well for around here its pretty damn straight only 2 stop signs and 1 or 2 lights before you hit a highway... and about 10 miles of windy back roads...


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## OlympicYJ (Dec 17, 2013)

I forgot to say. Stella is part of McFarland or McFarland is part of Stella can't remember which.


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## paccity (Dec 17, 2013)

stella just bought out our pole yard in willamina , right in the middle of our last job . they came and cruised it for us on the stump. but some of the stuff once on the ground had defect so went for saw logs. can't remember the exact numbers but would lose half the rate when going to lumber. and they took care of the haul which was only about 5-6 miles from the yard.


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## OlympicYJ (Dec 17, 2013)

Just did a little searching and Stella bought out McFarland.


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## paccity (Dec 17, 2013)

Pacific Wood Preserving of Oregon


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## jwilly (Dec 17, 2013)

Around here they buy Red Pine for poles. The buyer will come, look at the trees and paint the suggested length on them, 32'- 57'. The problem is they promise great money but the poles are peeled and inspected before you get paid. If they don't meet spec they are either cut back or rejected. After you consider the extra work of stacking, loading and trucking long wood with equipment designed for sawlogs and then get a check smaller than expected we found it was better to cut them 16' and sell them as logs to Canada.

We did find however that different buyers were much better at marking the poles and the check was closer to what we expected. It all depended on number of knots and how close they were up the pole, if there were more than 5 branches on the ring it was a reject and I don't remember how close they could be. It can be a crap shoot.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 17, 2013)

hmm, sound like some markets are great and some are a little shady. Guess I'll have to have a nice long pow wow with the cruiser they send out.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 17, 2013)

I run a gyppo operation in a different line of work and find myself completely at the mercy of the "sawmills" I deal with. In logging, are bigger operations able to negotiate better rates from the mills, or have more recourse when the check is smaller than it should be?

BTW, I'm missing Bob and apologize to the group if it was my foolish questions that finally broke his AS spirit


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## jwilly (Dec 17, 2013)

I think the bigger operations can absorb the price differences easier than the little guy because of the volume they deal with. When we cut the poles we were quoted prices for each length, we cut them, had them loaded and tallied and were quite surprised when the tally from the mill came back much different. 2nd time around had a different buyer and I asked a lot more questions. This time the buyer was a much better scaler and could estimate the sizes better and paid more attention to the branch locations. The first time around I think the diameter at the specified length was overestimated so the poles all became shorter and less money.


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## slowp (Dec 17, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> hmm, sound like some markets are great and some are a little shady. Guess I'll have to have a nice long pow wow with the cruiser they send out.


 

Note the eastern location of the shady markets. I think you'll do OK if you have the quality.


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## slowp (Dec 17, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I run a gyppo operation in a different line of work and find myself completely at the mercy of the "sawmills" I deal with. In logging, are bigger operations able to negotiate better rates from the mills, or have more recourse when the check is smaller than it should be?
> 
> BTW, I'm missing Bob and apologize to the group if it was my foolish questions that finally broke his AS spirit


 
Our local mill buys timber on the stump and generally uses the same logging outifits over and over to log what they buy. They will also buy logs from other loggers, but those folks do not always seem happy with the price, which fluctuates according to the demand. Their pet companies still need to bid on the job--that's the negotiation. My opinion is that the mill knows these guys do a good job, without much fuss, so that is worth hiring them again. 

It is pretty well known how the log scaling is done at each mill--some pay by weight and some by scale. Loggers know what the mills want so usually know what they'll get. I have heard the pole market has been good the last few years in our part of the country.


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## madhatte (Dec 17, 2013)

slowp said:


> My opinion is that the mill knows these guys do a good job, without much fuss, so that is worth hiring them again.



Likewise, the landowners know the same, and are pleased to see trusted folks at the auction table.


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## jwilly (Dec 17, 2013)

I don't think the markets are necessarily shady. In our case it was just not asking enough questions. I don't remember the prices quoted but if it were $1/foot you'd that's what you would get. After they debark and inspect them, reject some for too many knots on a whorl or whorls too close together you can lose a lot. With sawlogs you can cut to the spec for the mill. We just cut the trees that the buyer marked to the lengths he marked, not understanding that may they change after inspection at the mill. We calculated the approximate scale on the next load and found we were safer and farther ahead just cutting into logs, it worked out to more/bf. We did cut more poles for the same outfit but this time we were paid for the lengths as marked up front. I guess they really wanted the poles.


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## 1270d (Dec 17, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I run a gyppo operation in a different line of work and find myself completely at the mercy of the "sawmills" I deal with. In logging, are bigger operations able to negotiate better rates from the mills, or have more recourse when the check is smaller than it should be?
> 
> BTW, I'm missing Bob and apologize to the group if it was my foolish questions that finally broke his AS spirit



In my area the bigger shows definitely have more say in their rates. The minimum volume is around 10000 crds a month if you expect to negotiate a better rate. Some of the big players pay more for stumpage than the mill's advertised price delivered.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 17, 2013)

1270d said:


> In my area the bigger shows definitely have more say in their rates. The minimum volume is around 10000 crds a month if you expect to negotiate a better rate. Some of the big players pay more for stumpage than the mill's advertised price delivered.


 yep, figure that one out.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 17, 2013)

The big outfits get the big timber jobs, mostly because they have the equipment and something of a reputation, I on the other hand have neither... Although I've been working hard on getting a good reputation, its just not real easy in this neck of the brush.

That being so, when I do have logging work in front of me I do pretty good, after all my over head is nearly nothing, diesel, parts, insurance, in that order. No wages to worry about so everything I make over those three goes to more equipment or to line my pockets. Eventually it will start going to buying acreage... eventually...


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## CollegeLogger (Dec 17, 2013)

More often than not, utility poles are going to pay better than saw logs even if its just going to be one load. I worked for bell timber, the log buying and forestry end of bell pole in the lake states for a couple years out of college. The Conway yard is the Washington yard for the western division. Most buyers are going to want at least a load to make it worth there time to come out and mark the trees. Load sizes vary on the length and species of poles that make up the load. For red pine 35 footers it was roughly 35 pieces to a truckload with longer lengths being less than that. Payment was by the cord with a conversion factor because all loads were weighed and then converted to cords, usually it was 10 cords to a truckload. Price per cord on the landing depended on how far they were from the yard and trucking costs associated with that. 
Lengths for poles varied from 35 to 70 ft in the lake states for red pine. Douglas for and cedar were 35 to 125 ft tall. I know in British Columbia and parts of Washington, they were heli logging them using the standing stick method where there still attached to the stump when the helicopter comes to get them to avoid breakage sometimes associated with traditionally falling them. Trucking is usually taken care of by the company unless the logger could truck the poles himself. Just make sure to buck at the length on the pole and trim the limbs close while not cutting into the body of the pole as that may cull the whole pole. I know my view and information on this is from the lake states, but the methods and way they are done is usually the same. Hope this helps.


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## Spotted Owl (Dec 18, 2013)

May sound trivial, but watch your lengths. Ya can get in a rut of looking for the odds, poles will have lots of evens on the tape. Walk with the cruiser and learn defect before you cut to save your self some work. Put all your other wood on the ground first, then you will have less chance for damage when you drop your pole stock. It's also easier for the ground guys and landing equipment to separate. A big Spencer can help but usually I don't have it close by so I just double the 50. Mark the butt somehow so there is no confusion at the landing, usually it's crayon, written length and "POLE", also a small snipe as markers that it's pole stock. Keep track on your hat so you know what you cut is going to the pole mill and not getting mixed up on the deck. If you run into a big pole, get paid or have it written in the paper before it's cut and especially before is moves once it's on the ground. A lot of the times drivers don't like the BIG ones and will take it upon themselves to trim it down, so it's easier for them.



Owl


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## OlympicYJ (Dec 20, 2013)

Patty hit it on the head about contract loggers. We do have our preferences. If you have the iron and do a good job you usually stick around. The guys that have the iron, experience, and willingness to take the tough jobs can shall we say command their price and if your really god if you ask for a couple bucks more you'll get it.

College logger; I'm guessing those red pine poles are a little smaller than what we have here in WA so would make sense for more pieces on the truck. Most I've seen were about 6 sticks but that was doug fir. Cedar would be about the same but more likely shorter lengths than the DF.

Jwilly; probably just the learning curve on your first load. As you gained experience you got better and having a knowledgeable and helpful forester is definitely a big help. That's what were here for. Some guys I suppose not, but I personally would rather have my logger asking me questions and asking me to come out and work with him to make sure things were right rather than not. Guys like that stick around unless you're on the phone every 5 mins about stuff you should know if you've been working for the outfit for a while. New to the company loggers questions are good it shows you're dedicated to doing the job right but you can go overboard. I've seen this happen. Don't ask the same question too many times because it will appear you aren't getting it and they'll cut ya loose. The best question is to ask is"how are we doing?" A good honest forester will tell you exactly how you are doing.


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## slowp (Dec 20, 2013)

And we get questions when a timber purchaser is considering hiring a logger new to them like "Have you heard anything about so and so? Have you ever worked with them? "

Kind of an informal reference check. I think I gave an unthoughtful, disgusted Oh Gawd sigh on the phone when one guy was mentioned. Unfortunately, they'd hired him.

Some purchasers and bigger logging outfits will even try to get a crew that the forester has had good rapport with back each time. That's nice because you know what everybody is like and what they'll do.


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## madhatte (Dec 20, 2013)

Where I work, pretty much the same handful of outfits get all the bids -- that's because they're the only ones doing the bidding. They all do a good job, and we're happy to see 'em every time. It's a pretty good arrangement. Sometimes we have weird requirements, usually having something to do with road maintenance, that they factor in to their bid prices. It's a pretty good system, mostly, and we do listen to input from pretty much anybody who has any, and incorporate what makes sense to do so.


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## jwilly (Dec 20, 2013)

I would definitely cut red pine poles again but the lot we are working doesn't have very many reds. The few that are around are some of the biggest I've seen.

Just got a Christmas card from the forester we are working with and it said," Thanks for the excellent workmanship." Same thing for the landowner, it's nice to have the extra work doing a nice job appreciated.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 20, 2013)

Their buyer came out this morning despite the snow, seemed pretty positive on what we got there. Just have to work my way back into them now. And you know fall em without breaking everything, then skid em out... tree length... with a itsy bitsy wittle skidder...

no problem...


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 20, 2013)

strait pull north, strait pull


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## madhatte (Dec 21, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> strait pull north, strait pull



Tree-length and straight pull are not the best of friends in these parts.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 21, 2013)

lol, I don't think he will do much turning with the 440.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

define straight?

these poles start a 45' and they take up to 125'. I'm hoping to average around 60', although I'm pretty sure there are at least 2 90's in there.

One at a time I think the missus can do it, I may have to stop and wiggle my way around anything remotely looking like a corner, but I should be able to do it. Luckily the bit of ground in the middle is getting more or less cleared, The poles are probably coming off of one strip on the far side of the landing. There is at least on sharp turn at the landing, and a gentler one just before it, the landing is completely clear though, not even any stumps (which is weird by the way).

Nate's right, a straight pull around here is like finding a woman that cooks, cleans, doesn't want kids, her mom and dad both like you, doesn't nag, can change her own oil, is very attractive, and can carry an intelligent conversation.

Or like finding a dear during hunting season and not being shot at while you take aim.


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)

Rub trees might could be your friend. Or not.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 21, 2013)

drop n winch then, there is always a way. with the 540 grapple, I sometimes will drop and run to the tail and push it around with the blade, then regrapple and continue. do what ya have to with something valuable. we have always kept smallish skidders and worked bigger timber, ya learn little tricks.
hey north, how ya gonna haul poles? I mean yer regular self loader guy won't be able to help ya there. you gonna need a loader i'd think.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

they have specialized trucks out here, or they will sometimes use a standard self loader for the shorter poles, otherwise their self loader is more or less the same as our usual loaders they just have an even more extendable reach and sometimes they will add a section to the trailer, all depends on the road I guess. 

Our loaders out here arn't much different then the east coast knuckle booms, really the might even be the same thing just on a post looking tube, Some of them are rated around 14k although most are not... The self loader jocks all brag about 3 log loads, I know one guy that loaded a 9'6" dia 36' long log, had to notch the butt to fit between the bunks. I'll have to see if I can find some video of our self loaders getting creative...


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 21, 2013)

wow, I didn't think a behind the cab loader would do that. I have had sticks our loader wouldn't grapple, that's aggravating.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

I've seen em pick the front wheels up on a heavy one... Most of the loaders are rated around 8k, just a few of the guys are nuts enough to pull off the big stuff, (my one legged semi retired guy is one of em)


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## paccity (Dec 21, 2013)




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