# Personal?



## beastmaster (Jun 24, 2017)

We recently lost our ground man in a motor cycle accident. He broke his hand. Young guy, likable, could drive the truck, always on his phone, or hitting his vape, always disappearing, working just enough, no extra effort, not much initiative. Boy how i miss him. 
We've hired two people this week. One got fired before we got to the job. Didn't like the fact he had to meet at our yard, and ride in the truck to the job. Said we were stressing him out with all the stupid rules. 
Next guy sounded great, said he could out work anyone, had experience, could drive trucks, but been out of work for a while, was thankful for the chance to show what he could do.
Dude was so tore back after an hour on the job i thought he might die of a heart attack. Very easy job. Nice enough guy, no shame in being out of shape. He seemed to be trying. I covered for him. Trimmed and pulled most the brush. Got chewed out from the boss cuz the job took so long.
Next day guy just self destructs. Were on a hill side. Dudes hiding, l find him sleeping once. Another time kicking back under a tree on his phone. I cut some stuff that morning that needed to be dragged down hill. He hasn't picked up a twig. Last part of the day hes laying next to where im trimming on his phone. I ask him if he plans on pulling any of that brush. Says he wants to go. Said he couldn't wrap his head around pulling brush right now.
He asks if ill come down out of the tree and drop him at the yard. I have to finish my job i can't stop. He calls the boss. They get into it over the phone. He asks to borrow money for a taxi. I give him 40.00. I just want him off the job site, hes acting strange. He disappears, few minutes later my boss walks up ranting. Dude took off in the dumptruck! When he seen the boss drive up he jumped out. Truck hits a tree. He takes off running. My boss chasing him. Guy jumps in a truck thats pulling out and off they go.
I dragged brush tell dark to finish job. He hadn't got paid so i collected my 40.00 from my boss.
Our groundman make 1000.00 a week. But we work hard. What happened to normal hard working people. Is that a thing of the pass?
Im kind of just ranting but im also amazed.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 24, 2017)

What happens in the man cab stays in the man cab. Used to find them in under the seat just ahittin and asleepin and adisappearing.

I started to play along and go on man hunts and act all surprised after awhile. I mean, what else was I gonna do?

The first thing I do to groundies is make them give me their pot, smoke it then go to work. After awhile they caught on and started to hate me and would literally cry or even want to fight. Fight!? ME!? Hell, I'll just shoot ya, to tired and stoned to do any hard work.

I guess it was rude of me to smoke up all their weed and start telling them what to do? 

It got to be like I didn't even care and that's all they were there for. Every once in a while there would be a good groundy but he would get driven down by the rest and there wasn't much I could do. Worst thing is for a climber to drive a ground down and that happens a lot. You really got to let the groundies know they are loved but still got to pay attention and move. I blame their bosses for not building them up and compensating them properly. Bawss be like, " I can get anyone to drag brush for
bucks an hour!" ........ And he did just get anyone. Very common.

I miss those days but it was difficult and dangerous to be working with non-professionals. One starts acting funny then the rest follow and nowadays they all got them phones on top of everything else. I ask the time and next thing everybody is digging for their phones. " NO, yer not googling right now dude!"


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 24, 2017)

I hear you, I've gone through several hired hands.

One last year seamed like it was going to work until the first week went by and I paid him.
He had been driving ~60 miles round trip each day in an.old Chevy truck. I thought it was nuts, but whatever.

I advertised the job at min wage, (9.75) but I decided to toss a bit extra.

He apparently couldn't do math and somehow was figuring an amount that was WAY more. Never gave me an amount though, but I didn't figure $400 for 30 hrs was terrible. (He just stacked firewood in trucks).

Had 2 guys never show on time. One full on disappeared. I interviewed him, was supposed to start that Monday, that was the last I've seen him. The other showed up several DAYS late in the middle of the day expecting to start working!

The guy I have working now, I'd like to meet his folks. Darn good job they've done.
He's polite, steady at working. 

Unfortunately he's leaving for college thus fall, cause I sure would keep him busy.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 24, 2017)

I had one excellent worker a few years ago. He flew out to Florida for Christmas and planned on coming back after 2 months or so.
I had rented out a room in my house to him so he left everything here. Clothes, car, etc.

That's the last I've seen him. No idea what happened. I still owe him 2 weeks wages even.


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## gorman (Jun 24, 2017)

Put that kid out of his misery. There are skilled young ones out there, but they are a hot commodity. It's hard to find one without a job.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 24, 2017)

Don't feel as though this inane routine is localized just to us big shot tree workers, just imagine these rooky dukes trying to get work done in an office!



Best times I ever had was working with my bubbas, we knew we HAD to work together if we was going to survive. When it came together like that it was fun and pretty damn safe... and profitable.

I knew, as the shrewd business man I am, that it would NEVER be profitable to keep a cycle of jerktoons revolving around my doorstep... well, tailgate rather. " HEY! Don't get mad at me cause you put your cell phone where I gas up my chainsaw."

Them phones really cost that much!?


One thing this horse lady tried to do was sequester me with phone calls and messages. I had explained to her why she shouldn't do that, she thought I was neurotic. What do you think?


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 24, 2017)

It comes down to bad management. A lot of it is because the employer falsely assumes that since he is paying a climber so much that he is also in charge of keeping his crew of miscreants working to make the money he needs to pay you.

Take MDS for instance: Do you see him not being on the job with his crew? No you don't. He knows that its really important for him to be there. Even if he finds someone to do the actual " take down" part of the job he most likely will be there to make sure nobody scratches his paint.

I think he stretches himself a little lean like that but he is a smooth operator.

Hell, look at Jared! 

This horse lady decided just to appoint me ranch foreman all the sudden. Wanted to sit down and discuss but she knows the truth just like guys who send idiot crews out to do their work.

My friend knows a friend who just broke his hand doing tree work like monkey and for a property maintenance company. Sure they can spread mulch and scrape at the dirt until its clean but that's about it.

I just stopped in for lunch, chain my transmission down, sharpen saws and cool off for a little, got to go go go.


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## beastmaster (Jun 24, 2017)

The plot thickens. Seems the company is getting billed for the avocado tree branch that got broke off by the truck. This all happened next to an Avocado ranch. There was like 500 baby avocados on that branch i hear. We've had disputes with this avocado guy before over access to where were working. Now hes making a major case out of it. 
I was self employed once. God do i remember the never ending stress.


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## Jed1124 (Jun 24, 2017)

We have an awesome group now. Took a long time to get there. About 10 guys give or take, but our main lead guy made all the difference. Totally different culture at the shop.
They really pay groundies a $1000 a week out there?


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## hseII (Jun 24, 2017)

Jed1124 said:


> We have an awesome group now. Took a long time to get there. About 10 guys give or take, but our main lead guy made all the difference. Totally different culture at the shop.
> They really pay groundies a $1000 a week out there?



Clear Expectations, along with the Consequences of not meeting those expectations on day 1.

You don't agree with the conditions, & wont sign the agreement, well, you don't have a job.


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## beastmaster (Jun 24, 2017)

No most people pay way less. My boss is the hardest working guy ive ever met. He expects his crew to work as hard as him. We work long hours many days. He expects a lot and will pay for it. 
Im new my self there. Almost killed me at first. But ill work tell i drop. Now my goal is to make him cry uncle. Lol
Im 59. I always tell those guys all you have to do is keep up with me. Use to shame those youngster into working harder. Doesn't seem to bother these Millennials though.


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## hseII (Jun 24, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> No most people pay way less. My boss is the hardest working guy ive ever met. He expects his crew to work as hard as him. We work long hours many days. He expects a lot and will pay for it.
> Im new my self there. Almost killed me at first. But ill work tell i drop. Now my goal is to make him cry uncle. Lol
> Im 59. I always tell those guys all you have to do is keep up with me. Use to shame those youngster into working harder. Doesn't seem to bother these Millennials though.



Starting to Train Up an 18 year old is a lost cause unless it's the military.


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## gorman (Jun 24, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> No most people pay way less. My boss is the hardest working guy ive ever met. He expects his crew to work as hard as him. We work long hours many days. He expects a lot and will pay for it.
> Im new my self there. Almost killed me at first. But ill work tell i drop. Now my goal is to make him cry uncle. Lol
> Im 59. I always tell those guys all you have to do is keep up with me. Use to shame those youngster into working harder. Doesn't seem to bother these Millennials though.



How many hours a week is a "groundie" expected to work for a grand?


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## beastmaster (Jun 24, 2017)

gorman said:


> How many hours a week is a "groundie" expected to work for a grand?



Six days a week 8 to 12 hour days. Lots of those hours are traval and dump time.
We only have one groundy. Hes on the clock. Me i get a day rate. I prefer not to work that many hours or that hard. But tell we find the right guy. Im putting in work and hours, still getting my day rate.


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## Tenderfoot (Jun 24, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> No most people pay way less. My boss is the hardest working guy ive ever met. He expects his crew to work as hard as him. We work long hours many days. He expects a lot and will pay for it.
> Im new my self there. Almost killed me at first. But ill work tell i drop. Now my goal is to make him cry uncle. Lol
> Im 59. I always tell those guys all you have to do is keep up with me. Use to shame those youngster into working harder. Doesn't seem to bother these Millennials though.


As a millennial that attitude drives me up the wall, my generation works as hard as any. My generation has had the lowest wages (cost of living adjusted) since the 1930s. We get crap pay, crap hours, and treated like crap. Socrates was complaining about listless youth with no respect for their elders. People haven't changed. My generation wants to work as much as any. Shame is a shitty motivator, culture has changed. 

A problem I see is the previous generations has put too much value on being college educated and we cant find summer jobs. The best and brightest do not go into the trades or manual labor and the trade schools are for people expelled from high schools, not people who choose them. My high school had its carpentry and shop classes completely cut so they could pay for football too, not exactly my generations choice, it was the parents and grandparents who wanted to see little Johnny lit up under the Friday night lights.. We don't get any exposure through school. Most people these days cant work in high school either due to labor laws and the amount of homework we had. During my high school days Id have 3-4 hrs of homework at the end of every day, easy. Nobody will hire high school students any more or college students. I sent out 40 applications for a summer job before I got one, and I wound up as a foreman for a construction company for a while before I got into tree work. By far, the laziest employees were lifers who complained non stop, but could not be fired as they were unionized or friends with the boss. Folks my age knew they could be replaced in a heartbeat and busted their asses.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 24, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> As a millennial that attitude drives me up the wall, my generation works as hard as any. My generation has had the lowest wages (cost of living adjusted) since the 1930s. We get crap pay, crap hours, and treated like crap. Socrates was complaining about listless youth with no respect for their elders. People haven't changed. My generation wants to work as much as any. Shame is a shitty motivator, culture has changed.
> 
> A problem I see is the previous generations has put too much value on being college educated and we cant find summer jobs. The best and brightest do not go into the trades or manual labor and the trade schools are for people expelled from high schools, not people who choose them. My high school had its carpentry and shop classes completely cut so they could pay for football too, not exactly my generations choice, it was the parents and grandparents who wanted to see little Johnny lit up under the Friday night lights.. We don't get any exposure through school. Most people these days cant work in high school either due to labor laws and the amount of homework we had. During my high school days Id have 3-4 hrs of homework at the end of every day, easy. Nobody will hire high school students any more or college students. I sent out 40 applications for a summer job before I got one, and I wound up as a foreman for a construction company for a while before I got into tree work. By far, the laziest employees were lifers who complained non stop, but could not be fired as they were unionized or friends with the boss. Folks my age knew they could be replaced in a heartbeat and busted their asses.




Whoa there sweety, its Ok, don't pout! We didn't mean you.
And you are right.


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## Ryan'smilling (Jun 24, 2017)

Well said, @Tenderfoot. 

I'm not an anthropologist, but I've never heard tell of a generation who were overwhelmingly impressed by the get-it-done attitude of the subsequent generation. 

We need some American pioneers to come back and show these boomers what work really is. Some real Davey Crockett chit.


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## Tenderfoot (Jun 24, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Whoa there sweety, its Ok, don't pout! We didn't mean you.
> And you are right.


Every generation I have read about blames the next or the previous for the issues of the day. If you keep pointing the finger at the youngest or oldest folks in the workforce they will roll their eyes and make you obsolete that much sooner. Id recommend a skid steer for dragging brush. Wont show up late or steal a dump truck. Probably a lot cheaper too.


Ryan'smilling said:


> Well said, @Tenderfoot.
> 
> I'm not an anthropologist, but I've never heard tell of a generation who were overwhelmingly impressed by the get-it-done attitude of the subsequent generation.
> 
> We need some American pioneers to come back and show these boomers what work really is. Some real Davey Crockett chit.


Nor am I. People romanticize their youth and forget about the issues of 40 years ago. I remember reading about the backlash to off shoring labor and manufacturing labor in the 70s to Japan, but I see people who were the grunts of the 70's doing the same things today but in China or India. In my area South Americans and ex-combloc immigrants have dominated any manual labor focuses trade. I dont see many complain like the older Americans and they work incredibly hard. I think they get hired simply because they do not complain about reasons everyone is bad and just work. But, as a whole they are horrible to equipment and will steal a lot, so you still see Americans in supervisory positions, but usually younger guys with an associates degree from a community college. Its hard not to be resentful of the Boomers when I can see directly how policies they pushed for made my taxes higher and wages lower.


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## Jed1124 (Jun 24, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> Id recommend a skid steer for dragging brush



Next time the Dingo is loading wood I should make sure to tell the forman it should be loading brush instead.

The problem with the newest generation coming up is they want to run the operation from the get go. We weren't even allowed to speak our mind until we earned some respect.

If you ever need a summer job hit me up in a pm.


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## Tenderfoot (Jun 24, 2017)

Jed1124 said:


> Next time the Dingo is loading wood I should make sure to tell the forman it should be loading brush instead.
> 
> The problem with the newest generation coming up is they want to run the operation from the get go. We weren't even allowed to speak our mind until we earned some respect.
> 
> If you ever need a summer job hit me up in a pm.


You may laugh, but I got a big riding mower and towed brush with that instead of dragging it by hand on some jobs. Rather drag brush then carry wood though. Things with engines were invented so we could be less tired at the end of the day. May as well work them hard. Machines don't call in sick and do not steal things. As I grow I am mechanizing where ever possible instead of relying on labor. Where I work we do a lot of long (75-150 ft) drags with brush and do not take the wood on a lot of jobs. Being as I am the one who is dragging the brush I would like to make MY life easier. I think that it could make a 4 man crew into a 3 or 2 man crew for a lot of jobs. But, on the flip side it means you do not have the extra guy for the other jobs or if the machine breaks down you are SOL.

Managing personnel and trying to streamline is hard. No matter what you do you are second guessing yourself or your boss. Someone who is very experienced in their field told me there are very few revolutionary changes, most are slow evolutionary ones. The wildly successful businesses are all very good at maximizing employee output for a given time frame. But, economically it may be better to have high variable costs per job (labor) vs high fixed costs (equipment) since tree work is so seasonal. I got taught in business school to throw money at equipment and to leverage, leverage, leverage. The 'conventional wisdom' in school is to throw money at equipment instead of ingenuity. 

I really appreciate the job offer, fortunately I have steady work for now and am going to 4 year school in the fall. To be honest, I think I am much better at logistics and planning then the actual labor part of tree work.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 25, 2017)

Not sure why you think pay is crap no vs "back then"?

I started working as a kid in the 90s for $5.15/hr. Adjusted for inflation, that is $7.98. I don't think any state has min wage that low? Here it's $9.75.

I don't normally have trouble finding people to work, but keeping them is a different story. Either they are a good worker and are smart and find easier work (haha) or they realize that they actually have to work for a wage and "it's too hard". Sorry, but if I'm outworking my workers, something is wrong!

The mindset of "go to school and you'll be handed a cush job" is a load of horseshit! Guess what, the country needs ditch diggers just as much as bankers. I'd rather be knee deep in mud with a shovel in hand than have to wear a suit and tie in an office. Each their own though.


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## hseII (Jun 25, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Not sure why you think pay is crap no vs "back then"?
> 
> I started working as a kid in the 90s for $5.15/hr. Adjusted for inflation, that is $7.98. I don't think any state has min wage that low? Here it's $9.75.
> 
> ...



These kids coming out of high school have been Mislead. 

They've been mislead by their Teachers, guidance councilors, coaches, family members, & even their parents. 

They've been told all their lives they can do whatever they set their minds to, but they need a 4 year, or an 8 year degree, or they need to excel at some sport.

The Reality is, 
1. Skilled Trades most times typically pay more than the 2-4 year Degree programs, with the same to much less time invested. 
2. The chances of being a professional athlete are pretty slim. 

Now I'm not knocking Sports, but Reality should factor into the equation at some point: it's playtime for crying out loud. 

To be fair, It's not completely the fault of the people above, as those people have just regurgitated what they've been indoctrinated in. 

I started noticing this in my area 15yrs ago when I was the pupil, but in reality, this has been going on for 2-3 generations. 

A long time classmate & friend of mine, & myself had a guidance councilor get very upset with us because we wouldn't commit to going the Academic 
Route after High School. We both more than had the grades, but had no desire Go Get A College Degree In Something, just because it was a degree.

He was pressured into Engineering School, & didn't last a year because he didn't want to go that route: this was a High School Honors student. He chose a path that he truly enjoys as a Shop Technician at a local dealership. 

I became an apprentice with a Heavy Equipment Dealer, & went thru a 2 Year Program they participated in, along with the Big Time Heavy Equipment Manufacturer.

The year I completed my Apprenticeship, & went to work full time, I grossed more than my mother did.

I'd been an apprentice 1/2 the year, & she completed her 12th year in administration at the Local University. 

When she saw my W-2, she was genuinely pissed that I'd grossed more than her: she had been indoctrinated in the belief that Education is the Answer.

Education is Not the Answer; it should be considered an avenue to gain legitimate employment, but not THE ANSWER. 

Skilled Trades aren't only for the people who couldn't make it at a University: right now those Skilled Trades are the most straight forward path to Meaningful Employment. 

I could name off instance after instance where some young lad, (or lady,) went the 4 Year Route at a University, completed their degree, & have since abandoned their pursuit of Employment with said Degree.

They are paying off their School Loans, as well as living off of the Trade they have acquired since becoming aware of reality. 

Check out the Mike Rowe Works program: Skilled Trades are in high demand right now; I'd say more so than most College Degree Career Paths.


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## tree MDS (Jun 25, 2017)

Jed1124 said:


> We have an awesome group now. Took a long time to get there. About 10 guys give or take, but our main lead guy made all the difference. Totally different culture at the shop.
> They really pay groundies a $1000 a week out there?



lol,, sounds like the company bathhouse is filling up nicely.


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## Jed1124 (Jun 25, 2017)

tree MDS said:


> lol,, sounds like the company bathhouse is filling up nicely.



You should come on board! There's plenty of room on the steam room bench!


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## beastmaster (Jun 25, 2017)

I do believed each generation is getting lazier and more shot out as a whole. Of course there are always exceptions.
Watch some of those old logging videos from the turn of the century. I don't know if i could swing an axe or work a cross cut saw all day for 12 hours. Men build roads with pick axes and shovels. 
Kids leaving the farm where working hard and learning responsibility soon after walking. The whole work force in America was more labor intensive.
Things get easier each generation, thats a good thing. But whats not good is lots of people have lost that drive. That since of responsibility and determination. 
If you took a 100 Millennials and a 100 born in 1920's handed them shovels told them to start digging who do you think would have the deepest hole?


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 25, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Not sure why you think pay is crap no vs "back then"?
> 
> I started working as a kid in the 90s for $5.15/hr. Adjusted for inflation, that is $7.98. I don't think any state has min wage that low? Here it's $9.75.
> 
> ...




That is true what you said about having to outwork your workers but you see that is kinda how MDS has to be. I have to do it to if I want to progress and it will wear you out.

Everything else you said is true also and that is why I am holding out until there is nothing to hold on to anymore. At least I got my pride? Well, that's one way to look at it but people have go to stop thinking that everything is a matter of just being able to get someone else to do it because banking pays more and is easier than digging ditches.

It going to hard to grasp that theory but if the President actually has lower restrictions and regulations somehow then people really will see the result of that. They will see the dirt and filth and hear the bad words and tired souls lamenting a hard day's toil. They will see their neat tidy subdivided manicured lots turned back into industrial smog and rivers of fire.

And they should! Maybe then they will realize what is important and what is not.

Like the citizens of Detroit. There is a lot of talk about what is happening in the world and why and how and all that but just look at what the peasants are actually doing. Communism is what it is but there is no real leader except the people's will to live and that's all they are doing. They stay in their foreclosed houses and plant gardens and trade amongst themselves. This is driving the criminal element away but there will be a time when it comes to take the gardens instead of the drugs.

What would you do in that situation? I am pretty sure I would stay. The only thing that happened to that area of the globe is that the car business failed, its still useable land, very suitable to sustain life, A NEW FRONTIER!



Using what we know today Detroit could become a lush rainforest with sustainability for people. It kinda already is.


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## gorman (Jun 25, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I do believed each generation is getting lazier and more shot out as a whole. Of course there are always exceptions.
> Watch some of those old logging videos from the turn of the century. I don't know if i could swing an axe or work a cross cut saw all day for 12 hours. Men build roads with pick axes and shovels.
> Kids leaving the farm where working hard and learning responsibility soon after walking. The whole work force in America was more labor intensive.
> Things get easier each generation, thats a good thing. But whats not good is lots of people have lost that drive. That since of responsibility and determination.
> If you took a 100 Millennials and a 100 born in 1920's handed them shovels told them to start digging who do you think would have the deepest hole?



Just tell them there's an eight ball buried somewhere.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 25, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I do believed each generation is getting lazier and more shot out as a whole. Of course there are always exceptions.
> Watch some of those old logging videos from the turn of the century. I don't know if i could swing an axe or work a cross cut saw all day for 12 hours. Men build roads with pick axes and shovels.
> Kids leaving the farm where working hard and learning responsibility soon after walking. The whole work force in America was more labor intensive.
> Things get easier each generation, thats a good thing. But whats not good is lots of people have lost that drive. That since of responsibility and determination.
> If you took a 100 Millennials and a 100 born in 1920's handed them shovels told them to start digging who do you think would have the deepest hole?



I often think that we are getting soft. Even a trained body builder on coke couldn't swing an axe all day, he sure ain't gonna!

Sometimes I have the sense of responsibility and determination to sit my tired aching ass down and lay around til I stop aching so much.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 25, 2017)

hseII said:


> These kids coming out of high school have been Mislead.
> 
> They've been mislead by their Teachers, guidance councilors, coaches, family members, & even their parents.
> 
> ...




You sound quite a bit younger than me but smarter perhaps. I grew up in a time where skilled trades were just blue collar and the difference between white was well known. There was little respect and they would run through their gambits of power.

The whole glamourous job thing is real to people because if you buy enough of it then people will just buy it from you and you can walk around well to do.

Mechanics were just dirty losers, low paid. **** that! You fix it mofo! And when you get someone that really does like fixing stuff and is good at it then all the sudden the tables can be turned.


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## hseII (Jun 25, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> You sound quite a bit younger than me but smarter perhaps. I grew up in a time where skilled trades were just blue collar and the difference between white was well known. There was little respect and they would run through their gambits of power.
> 
> The whole glamourous job thing is real to people because if you buy enough of it then people will just buy it from you and you can walk around well to do.
> 
> Mechanics were just dirty losers, low paid. **** that! You fix it mofo! And when you get someone that really does like fixing stuff and is good at it then all the sudden the tables can be turned.



That's The Crazy Part: as a society, the Mechanic is just as important as the Accountant. 
And the Trash Man, & the Fireman, & the Policeman, & the Tanker Drivers.

Remove any one of those, & trouble is on the horizon. 

I'm not an advocate for Socialism, At All, but we as a people need everyone to pull their own weight. 

No one is above anyone else.

Typically, That White collar boss needs those Workers more that they need him.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 25, 2017)

Here is something you might find really crazy:

Not to many college students can change a spare tire. The spend their time learning about ways to do business which teaches them business must always do things the cheapest SO if they even try to change their spare they won't be able to because the wrench is made in China!!!!

So they become slick business people always finding a loophole or cashing in a derivative or selling Chinese junk on QVC ( Which employs a lot of people around here) then gripe about paying someone to come fix their tire cause that's ALL he knows how to do. 120K a year for changing tires!???

Why not? Do you see the retards they have to get for minimum wage?

Where would that platinum blonde with the shaved vagina and the jet black Audi get without that guy?


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 25, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I do believed each generation is getting lazier and more shot out as a whole. Of course there are always exceptions.
> Watch some of those old logging videos from the turn of the century. I don't know if i could swing an axe or work a cross cut saw all day for 12 hours. Men build roads with pick axes and shovels.
> Kids leaving the farm where working hard and learning responsibility soon after walking. The whole work force in America was more labor intensive.
> Things get easier each generation, thats a good thing. But whats not good is lots of people have lost that drive. That since of responsibility and determination.
> If you took a 100 Millennials and a 100 born in 1920's handed them shovels told them to start digging who do you think would have the deepest hole?



I'd make a call and have an excavator hauled in, dig the hole and be done in an hour.

And that's a HUGE thing... work smart! Being a "mongo" doesn't impress me.
We had a guy helping put up fence. Instead of taking the skid steer with hole auger out and being done in a day, he spent a whole week digging by hand... and expected a pat on the back.
I called him an idiot.

"Didn't know how you use it". Hmm.. so instead of LEARNING just decide to be stupid? Figure it out. It's a piece of equipment, not a space shuttle!


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## Tenderfoot (Jun 25, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> You sound quite a bit younger than me but smarter perhaps. I grew up in a time where skilled trades were just blue collar and the difference between white was well known. There was little respect and they would run through their gambits of power.
> 
> The whole glamourous job thing is real to people because if you buy enough of it then people will just buy it from you and you can walk around well to do.
> 
> Mechanics were just dirty losers, low paid. **** that! You fix it mofo! And when you get someone that really does like fixing stuff and is good at it then all the sudden the tables can be turned.



It is a lot worse now in some ways. I have a black friend who works at a car dealership. He gets keys tossed at him like he is the valet if he is in clean clothes. He one of the Gold-level techs there. I got laughed at by a wall street big wig as I was fixing his sink for planning to stay in the trades at 11 pm on a Saturday. Thought it was funny till I pointed out the sink needed fixing no matter how the economy was doing, his stock portfolio and sales commissions are tied to it.

I just cant get over how the older folks I know keep complaining about the generations they raised. My struggle after high school was expecting the same job market my parents had. Both my parents had good jobs out of high school and were able to pay for a 4 year school without too much trouble. I could barely find a minimum wage job and could not afford a car until I was 20. I know a lot of older folks I worked with talked about how much easier it was to start a business then it is now, or how much less regulation there is. Unfortunately, a lot of high school teachers never left school. Just went straight from college to teaching. They are not prepared or equipped to teach students how to cope with the realties of the real world. The disappearance of home economic and shop classes left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. I was not taught enough basic accounting in school to balance my own checkbook or how loans for buying a car worked. I grew up in a post 9-11 & Columbine world too, where everything and everyone is a potential threat. For a long time we were not allowed out after dark and security at schools went crazy. Parents got over protective and summer jobs weren't a thing. No forts in the woods or paper routes for young teens, those would be too dangerous. My parents got DCFS called on them for me being burned all over from a blacksmithing project. Very different world.


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## hseII (Jun 25, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Here is something you might find really crazy:
> 
> Not to many college students can change a spare tire. The spend their time learning about ways to do business which teaches them business must always do things the cheapest SO if they even try to change their spare they won't be able to because the wrench is made in China!!!!
> 
> ...



The High Schools have all but done away with Home Economics & Shop Class: this, along with the demonization of HardWorking Heterosexual Men, has caused this crop of no nothings.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 25, 2017)

hseII said:


> The High Schools have all but done away with Home Economics & Shop Class: this, along with the demonization of HardWorking Heterosexual Men, has caused this crop of no nothings.



Straight is the new queer?


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## ATH (Jun 25, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I do believed each generation is getting lazier and more shot out as a whole. Of course there are always exceptions.
> Watch some of those old logging videos from the turn of the century. I don't know if i could swing an axe or work a cross cut saw all day for 12 hours. Men build roads with pick axes and shovels.
> Kids leaving the farm where working hard and learning responsibility soon after walking. The whole work force in America was more labor intensive.
> Things get easier each generation, thats a good thing. But whats not good is lots of people have lost that drive. That since of responsibility and determination.
> If you took a 100 Millennials and a 100 born in 1920's handed them shovels told them to start digging who do you think would have the deepest hole?


Listen to the stories of some WWII vets. I'm not sure many born in the last 40-50 years would have been able to make the boat ride over without going mentally AWOL.


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## hseII (Jun 25, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Straight is the new queer?



Crazy isn't it. 

Like Ancient Greece or Rome, huh.


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## Jason Douglas (Jun 28, 2017)

hseII said:


> These kids coming out of high school have been Mislead.
> 
> They've been mislead by their Teachers, guidance councilors, coaches, family members, & even their parents.
> 
> ...


All great points but how about being in a Skilled Trade AND being highly educated in your field


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## hseII (Jun 28, 2017)

Jason Douglas said:


> All great points but how about being in a Skilled Trade AND being highly educated in your field



Those normally don't come at the same time, but if that's how you did it, Good For You.


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## beastmaster (Jun 29, 2017)

I know arborist with PhD's, certs, and papered experts, but i know several "arborist", with no formal education at all but know more about trees, tree diseases, tree care, etc.
Those people exist in most fields. Just like the Educated experts who are dumb as a box of rocks.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2017)

These whipersnaappers only wanna zoomy zoom zoom and a boom boom. They all need a year on the hog farm slopping hogs castrating,hauling hay etc.


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## beastmaster (Jun 29, 2017)

I grew up on a bird farm as a kid, most my friends familys owned dairy farms. After school if we all wanted to go do something, we'd all help one another with our chores. It wasn't an option not to feed the stock, or water, shoval crap or whatever. 
Not trying to sound like one of those had to walk 5 miles throu the snow to school storys, but kid had a lot more responsibility then.
Something missing these days with kids. Not their fault, but a condition of our times.
I was a hell raiser and trouble maker as a teenager. Very rebellious and had a hard time holding a normal job. Tree work was made for me. I would probably be doing life in prison somewhere if i hadn't found the tree business when i did. A misfit was welcomed so long as you worked hard and did your job.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jun 29, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I grew up on a bird farm as a kid, most my friends familys owned dairy farms. After school if we all wanted to go do something, we'd all help one another with our chores. It wasn't an option not to feed the stock, or water, shoval crap or whatever.
> Not trying to sound like one of those had to walk 5 miles throu the snow to school storys, but kid had a lot more responsibility then.
> Something missing these days with kids. Not their fault, but a condition of our times.
> I was a hell raiser and trouble maker as a teenager. Very rebellious and had a hard time holding a normal job. Tree work was made for me. I would probably be doing life in prison somewhere if i hadn't found the tree business when i did. A misfit was welcomed so long as you worked hard and did your job.



Kid's today won't even raise a tiny bit of hell. They think they are by smoking blunts, tattoos, etc. but they just momma's boys.


Just because you can't "hold" a job does not mean that there is something wrong with you.


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## no tree to big (Jul 2, 2017)

Jed1124 said:


> Next time the Dingo is loading wood I should make sure to tell the forman it should be loading brush instead.
> 
> The problem with the newest generation coming up is they want to run the operation from the get go. We weren't even allowed to speak our mind until we earned some respect.
> 
> If you ever need a summer job hit me up in a pm.


So true we hired this one kid he was 19 wanted to be a climber because he climbed his mammas crab apple when he was 5 or some crap. Well we said alright well u need to learn a few basics first like how to use a rake, he didn't know how to hold it at first... his first day we were on a monster cotton wood plenty of stuff to do on the ground and every time there was something to do he would walk away n find someone to ask a question and constant I wanna do that instead comments (be the climber) 3 days of me going dude DO SOMETHING. Like small steps here junior we'll start with dragging brush and raking then we can step up to maybe a small chainsaw. Dude was constantly not doing anything his mommy called him in sick one day cause he had a rash on his foot. After a week n a half we fired him, he got all butt hurt saying everyone was lying about him not working and he was sweating every day lol I replied with "I can break a sweat sitting so??" Pretty sure he stomped his feet a few times. Plus the boss man was out with us a couple days and saw first hand this dudes laziness n tried telling the boss he was wrong. He claims we told him he would only work 8 hrs a day 7 to 330 at the latest. The one day he called an uber at 3 o'clock, not gonna lye I was happy to see him go. We have very bad luck with anybody under 35. 
3 or 4 years ago I had a badass crew all under 30 but I lost them all to big money jobs. Now I get lazy or old, over 60 years old, Mexicans who don't speak a word of English but can work or just plain stupid people. 
I'm looking for a new line of work before I commit mental suicide.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## gorman (Jul 2, 2017)

no tree to big said:


> So true we hired this one kid he was 19 wanted to be a climber because he climbed his mammas crab apple when he was 5 or some crap. Well we said alright well u need to learn a few basics first like how to use a rake, he didn't know how to hold it at first... his first day we were on a monster cotton wood plenty of stuff to do on the ground and every time there was something to do he would walk away n find someone to ask a question and constant I wanna do that instead comments (be the climber) 3 days of me going dude DO SOMETHING. Like small steps here junior we'll start with dragging brush and raking then we can step up to maybe a small chainsaw. Dude was constantly not doing anything his mommy called him in sick one day cause he had a rash on his foot. After a week n a half we fired him, he got all butt hurt saying everyone was lying about him not working and he was sweating every day lol I replied with "I can break a sweat sitting so??" Pretty sure he stomped his feet a few times. Plus the boss man was out with us a couple days and saw first hand this dudes laziness n tried telling the boss he was wrong. He claims we told him he would only work 8 hrs a day 7 to 330 at the latest. The one day he called an uber at 3 o'clock, not gonna lye I was happy to see him go. We have very bad luck with anybody under 35.
> 3 or 4 years ago I had a badass crew all under 30 but I lost them all to big money jobs. Now I get lazy or old, over 60 years old, Mexicans who don't speak a word of English but can work or just plain stupid people.
> I'm looking for a new line of work before I commit mental suicide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



I hired that same kid.


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## hseII (Jul 2, 2017)

gorman said:


> I hired that same kid.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 2, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> I grew up on a bird farm as a kid, most my friends familys owned dairy farms. After school if we all wanted to go do something, we'd all help one another with our chores. It wasn't an option not to feed the stock, or water, shoval crap or whatever.
> Not trying to sound like one of those had to walk 5 miles throu the snow to school storys, but kid had a lot more responsibility then.
> Something missing these days with kids. Not their fault, but a condition of our times.
> I was a hell raiser and trouble maker as a teenager. Very rebellious and had a hard time holding a normal job. Tree work was made for me. I would probably be doing life in prison somewhere if i hadn't found the tree business when i did. A misfit was welcomed so long as you worked hard and did your job.


Man you had me soooo fooled, I thought you were like that kid opy on maybury rfd  What is even funnier I lived in a town like Maybury had aunts like Bea and raised so much Cain it embarrasses me today. I'm lucky to have survived as long as I have


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## Zale (Jul 2, 2017)

gorman said:


> I hired that same kid.



We've all hired that same kid.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 3, 2017)

no tree to big said:


> So true we hired this one kid he was 19 wanted to be a climber because he climbed his mammas crab apple when he was 5 or some crap. Well we said alright well u need to learn a few basics first like how to use a rake, he didn't know how to hold it at first... his first day we were on a monster cotton wood plenty of stuff to do on the ground and every time there was something to do he would walk away n find someone to ask a question and constant I wanna do that instead comments (be the climber) 3 days of me going dude DO SOMETHING. Like small steps here junior we'll start with dragging brush and raking then we can step up to maybe a small chainsaw. Dude was constantly not doing anything his mommy called him in sick one day cause he had a rash on his foot. After a week n a half we fired him, he got all butt hurt saying everyone was lying about him not working and he was sweating every day lol I replied with "I can break a sweat sitting so??" Pretty sure he stomped his feet a few times. Plus the boss man was out with us a couple days and saw first hand this dudes laziness n tried telling the boss he was wrong. He claims we told him he would only work 8 hrs a day 7 to 330 at the latest. The one day he called an uber at 3 o'clock, not gonna lye I was happy to see him go. We have very bad luck with anybody under 35.
> 3 or 4 years ago I had a badass crew all under 30 but I lost them all to big money jobs. Now I get lazy or old, over 60 years old, Mexicans who don't speak a word of English but can work or just plain stupid people.
> I'm looking for a new line of work before I commit mental suicide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk




I have been trying to put a definition on when people go around asking questions instead of doing what they were just told to do. What is that called?


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## JeffGu (Jul 3, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> What is that called?



It's called "childhood".


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 3, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> It's called "childhood".




I wish! Then adults wouldn't do it!

I know it has a true definition, when I find it I will be able to explain to my wife.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 3, 2017)

I put an ad up a few days ago for hired labor... basically a firewood stacker.

I had someone email saying I was ripping people off trying to pay minimum wage ($9.80 here) and how that type of work was worth at least $15/hr.

Talk about "entitlement"! I'd love to understand how he could think it was a "rip off". The work and pay were clearly described. It's a minimal skill set job.

$15/hr... haha!
I doubt I make even $5/hr most weeks!


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 3, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I put an ad up a few days ago for hired labor... basically a firewood stacker.
> 
> I had someone email saying I was ripping people off trying to pay minimum wage ($9.80 here) and how that type of work was worth at least $15/hr.
> 
> ...



The skill set required being low has little to do with the commitment and dedication required to do the laborious task.

If you think a firewood stacker is only worth 10 then that's all you should expect.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 3, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> The skill set required being low has little to do with the commitment and dedication required to do the laborious task.
> 
> If you think a firewood stacker is only worth 10 then that's all you should expect.



I'm not sure what you mean.

I just thought it was interesting someone would think its such a crazy idea of paying minimum wage and "expect" 50% more pay!

I know of no "floor sweeper" work that pays that well, otherwise I'd be doing it.

A friend is the head manager of the local Taco Bell, it pays around $13/hr. She has to supervise about 15 employees, take care of ordering supplies, etc.

Anyhow, I hired someone today, had about 35 people call on the job.

Heck when I was a kid I earned $5.15/hr on farms (min wage). Adjusted for inflation that's under $8 today. I thought I struck it rich actually getting paid for slave labor. My Dad didn't pay us! Haha!


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## beastmaster (Jul 3, 2017)

I think a labor job should a fair but lower wage. And let them work up from there. A exceptional ground man should get and deserves a wage matching their abilities. A guy you could count on to stack wood, who did it really well and fast. Did extra, deserves more and should get raises. 
You can give a lazy guy 20 dollars an hour and he'll still be lazy and complain. A good man will work just as hard for 10.00 an hour as 20. But probably won't stay long 
Reward those who deserve it.


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## greengreer (Jul 4, 2017)

You should try paying your firewood stackers a $/volume rate instead of hourly. I bet you see a huge increase in productivity, as well as less variable in what it costs you to produce x amount of wood, meaning you can know just about exactly how much you will make on each cord.


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## Dawnsman (Jul 4, 2017)

Guys it's like this I've worked my Azz off for the past 22 years just this year I got bumped up to 20 bucks an hour for driving an asphalt truck on the 2nd 12 hour shift so nights in other words I've had and held the kind of jobs like cutting stacking carrying firewood brush hell I've even called myself a mechanic considering I've worked on cars heavy equipment just about all my 45 years damn good at everything I do im not educated by today's standards now I work everyday hard I've done this my father done this until the agent orange exposure he was exposed to in Vietnam caused his disability but he still does more at 68.and disabled than kids half my age that hard work comes from my grandfather who insidently was one of the very best arborist in the country that man WORKED my father following his footsteps knows one hell of a deal about it as well he left that field to go to war then drove trucks after Vietnam saying that let me tell you bout these kids of today first hand I've got 2 23 yr old stepsons one works his ass off has a nearly new car and a girlfriend lives in his own place that one was adopted ok now the other one sits in front of a computer playing games smokes weed bitches about what we don't have at home with his mindset that he's gonna start a job with no diploma at a higher rate of pay than I make uh huh thats gonna happen when I started work on a cattle / pig farm at 13 for 1.50/hour I was happy to get that but I worked these kids as a whole today are dumd as hell.and lazy don't even begin to cover it. Like someone said society isn't the whole blame parents are we /they figured it's too dangerous to go out and play outside where you might get a sunburn or something geez come on Columbine and things like that wouldn't happen if parents was allowed or was interested in being parents I got my ass tore up when I did wrong and for that have never been in prison no serious criminal records worked hard because that's what I was TAUGHT yes education is a good thing but so is the thing that's not so common anymore common sense respect for elders and yourself people who stand up for the right damn reason instead of sitting on their hands cause they afraid to hurt a youngsters feelings that's the kind of folks that cause tbe guts like we have all hired you know the lazy I wanna do that job instead of picking up the branch or raking up tbe debris it's our own fault as parents and leaders of our homes that should be showing these kids what to do 

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## Dawnsman (Jul 4, 2017)

And one more minor detail if y all will notice over the past idk 25 or so.years the slow bust steady removal of God and prayer from school and work sure has changed things it's up to you if you are a believer or not I'm just putting it out there when a guy went into a high school in Paducah KY and shot a bunch of kids while they were praying that didn't make such a big deal.as Columbine Colorado did I figured that I'd just mention that

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## jefflovstrom (Jul 4, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I'm not sure what you mean.
> 
> I just thought it was interesting someone would think its such a crazy idea of paying minimum wage and "expect" 50% more pay!
> 
> ...



I remember minimum wage in California at $2.10 an hour,, 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 4, 2017)

Dawnsman said:


> Guys it's like this I've worked my Azz off for the past 22 years just this year I got bumped up to 20 bucks an hour for driving an asphalt truck on the 2nd 12 hour shift so nights in other words I've had and held the kind of jobs like cutting stacking carrying firewood brush hell I've even called myself a mechanic considering I've worked on cars heavy equipment just about all my 45 years damn good at everything I do im not educated by today's standards now I work everyday hard I've done this my father done this until the agent orange exposure he was exposed to in Vietnam caused his disability but he still does more at 68.and disabled than kids half my age that hard work comes from my grandfather who insidently was one of the very best arborist in the country that man WORKED my father following his footsteps knows one hell of a deal about it as well he left that field to go to war then drove trucks after Vietnam saying that let me tell you bout these kids of today first hand I've got 2 23 yr old stepsons one works his ass off has a nearly new car and a girlfriend lives in his own place that one was adopted ok now the other one sits in front of a computer playing games smokes weed bitches about what we don't have at home with his mindset that he's gonna start a job with no diploma at a higher rate of pay than I make uh huh thats gonna happen when I started work on a cattle / pig farm at 13 for 1.50/hour I was happy to get that but I worked these kids as a whole today are dumd as hell.and lazy don't even begin to cover it. Like someone said society isn't the whole blame parents are we /they figured it's too dangerous to go out and play outside where you might get a sunburn or something geez come on Columbine and things like that wouldn't happen if parents was allowed or was interested in being parents I got my ass tore up when I did wrong and for that have never been in prison no serious criminal records worked hard because that's what I was TAUGHT yes education is a good thing but so is the thing that's not so common anymore common sense respect for elders and yourself people who stand up for the right damn reason instead of sitting on their hands cause they afraid to hurt a youngsters feelings that's the kind of folks that cause tbe guts like we have all hired you know the lazy I wanna do that job instead of picking up the branch or raking up tbe debris it's our own fault as parents and leaders of our homes that should be showing these kids what to do
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



Well, life is tough and we lay in the bed we made,
Jeff


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## Dawnsman (Jul 4, 2017)

Yes we do

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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 4, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I'm not sure what you mean.
> 
> I just thought it was interesting someone would think its such a crazy idea of paying minimum wage and "expect" 50% more pay!
> 
> ...




I think you will find if you re-read your above statement you will be sure of my meaning.

But to elaborate:

Where would you be without a good firewood stacker?


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## Dawnsman (Jul 4, 2017)

I was the good firewood stacker lol y all enjoy the 4th be safe 

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## capetrees (Jul 4, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> I remember minimum wage in California at $2.10 an hour,,
> Jeff


I remember $3.10 in MA


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## capetrees (Jul 4, 2017)

Possibly double screwed here

One guy that works weekends with me, over the past couple of months, has been acting weird. Got evicted from his place in Dec and was living in his car with no steady job. Finally got a steady job and I loaned him $1200 towards 1st/last/security in April. Idea was to pay me back $100 each week. Every weekend for the past three months has been drama and excuses. Didn't set his alarm, cut on his leg got infected/can't work, had to take his dads girlfriend to the ER, car accident blocked the road to get to work on time, car caught on fire, or the best one doesn't call or text to let me know anything about coming in. Turns out, the money I gave him for rent went into car parts and he's been living free at a friends house while on the side, he does mechanics work for the guy instead of working trees with me! Missed last week and at this point, because the payment plan hasn't been steady, I told him I want the $700 he still owes me. Tells me 4-6 weeks to pay it and of course, he's not coming in anymore! I could care less if that POS comes in again or not, I just want my money!

On the other side, another guy that works with me is looking for a new steady job that, if he gets, will allow him to keep working with me on the weekends but if he doesn't get the job he prefers, he'll take a different job and that takes away his weekends so no working with me. This guy is great, works non stop and looks for more. He wants to keep working weekends but he and I both know he needs a steady job with benefits. Tomorrow we're supposed to hear which job he gets.

So one guys out and I could care less and the other, who I hope will be able to continue to work, may not be back. Bad time to lose both guys.


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## Dawnsman (Jul 4, 2017)

Yeah man you gotta be careful who you loan money today

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## jefflovstrom (Jul 4, 2017)

So you are out $1200, 
Jeff


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 4, 2017)

Tried that at $15/cord. Didn't work out. Legally have to pay at least minimum wage, even at piece rate (what the labor dept calls it).



greengreer said:


> You should try paying your firewood stackers a $/volume rate instead of hourly. I bet you see a huge increase in productivity, as well as less variable in what it costs you to produce x amount of wood, meaning you can know just about exactly how much you will make on each cord.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 4, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> I think you will find if you re-read your above statement you will be sure of my meaning.
> 
> But to elaborate:
> 
> Where would you be without a good firewood stacker?



I'll do it myself before I pay someone $15+/hr. It's just not in the cards to pay that much. It'd be roughly 30% of the profit. aka the money that pays for equipment, parts labor, and if I'm lucky enough to buy me food and pay my light bill at home.


They would need to be running the whole show for that kind of pay.

I'd be better ahead to just work for myself stacking wood at $15/hr, cause I generally don't make that! (huh? haha!).

I had no trouble finding help, nor have had trouble in the last several years. Finding someone to stay.. well that's really just how people are. I have a friend that pays $45-60/hr for flaggers and even at that pay he has a hard time getting people to stay more than a few weeks.
Seems once the weather turns "crappy" come fall and into winter people don't want to work I guess. Dunno, I work in all weather, -30* to 85*, rain, snow, sun.


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## Dawnsman (Jul 4, 2017)

Where you live hell I'll stack fire wood guarantee none of these kids can keep up lol I work mine to death seems like

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## beastmaster (Jul 5, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> I remember minimum wage in California at $2.10 an hour,,
> Jeff


I remember those days. My first day i ever worked for a tree service was minimum wage. I heard the climber was getting a 100.00 a day. I became a climber.


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## capetrees (Jul 5, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> So you are out $1200,
> Jeff


currently $700


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## Stayalert (Jul 5, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> I have been trying to put a definition on when people go around asking questions instead of doing what they were just told to do. What is that called?



Noun: Sand bagger

Verb: Sand Bagging

need more info? Stop asking me look it up yourself


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## bikemike (Jul 5, 2017)

Jed1124 said:


> We have an awesome group now. Took a long time to get there. About 10 guys give or take, but our main lead guy made all the difference. Totally different culture at the shop.
> They really pay groundies a $1000 a week out there?


I might want to do their job now


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 5, 2017)

Minimum wage is only relevant to the area you are in and the local cost of living. It's quite likely our minimum wage will go up to $15/hr within a few months. However, around here, if you can find a place to rent for under a $1000/mo you've hit the jackpot (or it was a former grow op). My daughter shares a 4 bedroom house (mainfloor only, there's 2 suits in the basement) for $2400/mo.

And you can imagine that when the minimum wage goes up, I'm going to be banging the drum for a raise as well.

We've had our share of good groundies over the years and our share of duds. Being an urban company, we normally get urban people, some only last a day. The big problem we have is phones, but I have a new line (and being the old ******* foreman I can get away with it). On your phone, on the bus (back to the office), your choice.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 5, 2017)

BC WetCoast said:


> Minimum wage is only relevant to the area you are in and the local cost of living. It's quite likely our minimum wage will go up to $15/hr within a few months. However, around here, if you can find a place to rent for under a $1000/mo you've hit the jackpot (or it was a former grow op). My daughter shares a 4 bedroom house (mainfloor only, there's 2 suits in the basement) for $2400/mo.
> 
> And you can imagine that when the minimum wage goes up, I'm going to be banging the drum for a raise as well.
> 
> We've had our share of good groundies over the years and our share of duds. Being an urban company, we normally get urban people, some only last a day. The big problem we have is phones, but I have a new line (and being the old ******* foreman I can get away with it). On your phone, on the bus (back to the office), your choice.



I had a guy actually argue... "Well you use your phone"

A... I'm the boss!
B... I'm mostly taking/making calls to customers and answering messages... ie... what pays the bills!


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## bikemike (Jul 5, 2017)

My boss slash owner says no phones. Ok no problem cause its distracting, so it stays in my lunch bag.
So that it's in my bag the boss gets pissed about me not answering my phone when he wants to call me. I laugh every time and say no phones. Do as you say, not as you do. Now everything is group text so someone will be able to pass on info


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## Stayalert (Jul 5, 2017)

Most places where I work there is no/spotty cell service....

(great story whats the point?)

I don't really know except that its a non-issue for the most part....

using your phone and working for me = no bueno = sand bagging


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 5, 2017)

gotta need a phone to call '911',,
and your girlfriend,,,
Jeff


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## no tree to big (Jul 5, 2017)

I have a work phone and a personal phone I leave my personal in the truck work phone is linked through my sena headset so I don't miss calls everybody in the company calls my personal with the really time sensitive stuff... it's like people I have a company phone try calling it every now and then. Then they get mad I don't answer or respond for hours it's awesome. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## greengreer (Jul 6, 2017)

If you could do a cord in an hour and a half, would that still not equate to $10 an hr and be over minimum wage?
A friend of mine has a business that sprays foam insulation and he has switched his guys from hourly to 50cents a sq ft. He said it's one of the best moves his business has ever made. It motivates the good employees, and the lousy ones just can't hang and make their own way out the door.


ValleyFirewood said:


> Tried that at $15/cord. Didn't work out. Legally have to pay at least minimum wage, even at piece rate (what the labor dept calls it).


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 6, 2017)

greengreer said:


> If you could do a cord in an hour and a half, would that still not equate to $10 an hr and be over minimum wage?
> A friend of mine has a business that sprays foam insulation and he has switched his guys from hourly to 50cents a sq ft. He said it's one of the best moves his business has ever made. It motivates the good employees, and the lousy ones just can't hang and make their own way out the door.



Yeah, but it doesn't average out that well. Some days might be 7-8 hrs of work to 1 cord, some days might be 5 cords.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 7, 2017)

A few years ago, the company gave us flip phones. Boss says, you need to carry the phone at all times so I can call you. Guess what, we work in the rain and my raincoat pocket doesn't drain. Oops, wrecked 2 phones due to water damage.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 7, 2017)




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## tree MDS (Jul 8, 2017)

I just hired another 23 year old kid just out of the army. We'll see how this one works out starting Monday. If this one is anything like the "Marine" was, that's the end of that ********,, never again!! I stick to the usual low lives. lol


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## Dawnsman (Jul 8, 2017)

That's what's wrong he's a marine geez army is the only way to go especially if he's a Air borne Ranger 

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## tree MDS (Jul 8, 2017)

Dawnsman said:


> That's what's wrong he's a marine geez army is the only way to go especially if he's a Air borne Ranger
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



Lol, I don't really know anything about the service in general. He did refer to marines as "window licking crayon eaters", which I thought was kinda funny.


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## Dawnsman (Jul 8, 2017)

Lol I say that cause I'm an ex army ranger long time ago forgotten thank god

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## bikemike (Jul 8, 2017)

Easy to tell if a new guy is going to be good. 1. If he/she works hard but not too hard to kill them self in 2 hrs.
2 What they bring for food n drink to the job site. 
3 do they observe there surroundings and look to the sound of a saw
4 pick up a rake and put it to use


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## no tree to big (Jul 8, 2017)

bikemike said:


> Easy to tell if a new guy is going to be good. 1. If he/she works hard but not too hard to kill them self in 2 hrs.
> 2 What they bring for food n drink to the job site.
> 3 do they observe there surroundings and look to the sound of a saw
> 4 pick up a rake and put it to use


Very true we have had several show up with nothing or one 16oz bottle of water after being told bring food and water, you do not get to go somewhere to eat. After 2 of them I told the owner to send them home cause they are useless after a couple hrs.... 

There are good army/marines and there are bad some of the most out of shape laziest people I've delt with were ex army.... I've also had a few amazing ones too. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2017)

no tree to big said:


> Very true we have had several show up with nothing or one 16oz bottle of water after being told bring food and water, you do not get to go somewhere to eat. After 2 of them I told the owner to send them home cause they are useless after a couple hrs....
> 
> There are good army/marines and there are bad some of the most out of shape laziest people I've delt with were ex army.... I've also had a few amazing ones too.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



The company by law is to supply water.
Jeff


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## no tree to big (Jul 8, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> The company by law is to supply water.
> Jeff


I have seen no such thing here, weather its a tree service, construction company, or one of the top fortune 500 companies that involves heavy labor. I mean they have a perfectly good water supply at the shop nobody chooses to use it or bring containers to fill for their use. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Zale (Jul 8, 2017)

You're company sounds like a real fun place to work. We would provide ice and water. Usually a 5 gallon cooler for a crew of three.


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 8, 2017)

Zale said:


> You're company sounds like a real fun place to work. We would provide ice and water. Usually a 5 gallon cooler for a crew of three.


It depends on the state. All the places I worked for would leave a couple cases of bottled water in the truck, but I know they did not have to. I always do that for anyone who works for me. Usually buy some snacks if you work Saturday. Seems to make folks a little less unhappy for weekend work. My old boss was ALWAYS buying us lunch or breakfast, absolutely wonderful guy to work for. 

I do think the note of what they bring for lunch is a good one. Really good point. Might be a new interview question when I start looking for my own help along with 'whats the first thing you should do when you hear a saw start'?


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## JeffGu (Jul 8, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> ...whats the first thing you should do when you hear a saw start?



Check your TO-DO list and make sure you cleaned all of the DNA evidence off of it?


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## no tree to big (Jul 8, 2017)

Zale said:


> You're company sounds like a real fun place to work. We would provide ice and water. Usually a 5 gallon cooler for a crew of three.


What cause you'd have to pack your own jug of water? I know it's a complicated concept. It's kind of a test to eliminate the weak, day one if you can't put on boots, pants and bring a proper lunch and a jug of water, something you were told the day before very clearly it tells me a lot about you. Like you may not follow direction very well.

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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2017)

Zale said:


> You're company sounds like a real fun place to work. We would provide ice and water. Usually a 5 gallon cooler for a crew of three.



Cal-OSHA say's the company *Shall* supply 2 gallons per person,, believe me, I got the ticket,,and yes, we are a fun place to work!
Jeff


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## bikemike (Jul 8, 2017)

I don't care if a company supplies drink or not it's nice if they do but I always bring food n drinks and know il have enough on shitty hot days to offer some out too. If not I will refill with someones water hose


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## capetrees (Jul 8, 2017)

Cooler of Gatorade on the chipper, 2 gallons for the three of us and I buy lunch and coffee/donuts. Makes the day go by much better. I used to not drink at all all day and never knew it was what caused all my headaches. Not anymore


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 8, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> The company by law is to supply water.
> Jeff




WHAT!?? You mean to tell me that on top of minimum wage to run DA CHIPPAH! I have to buy water also!!?? I guess yer gonna tell me I have to provide somewhere legal to take a ****!!??


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 8, 2017)

capetrees said:


> Cooler of Gatorade on the chipper, 2 gallons for the three of us and I buy lunch and coffee/donuts. Makes the day go by much better. I used to not drink at all all day and never knew it was what caused all my headaches. Not anymore




How in the hell did you manage that!


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## capetrees (Jul 8, 2017)

Just never drank anything, often times thought it would cramp my guts up. The truth was just the opposite!


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## Zale (Jul 8, 2017)

no tree to big said:


> What cause you'd have to pack your own jug of water? I know it's a complicated concept. It's kind of a test to eliminate the weak, day one if you can't put on boots, pants and bring a proper lunch and a jug of water, something you were told the day before very clearly it tells me a lot about you. Like you may not follow direction very well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



I hear what you are saying but I've had new guys go down with heat exhaustion and I try to eliminate that possibility if I can. We also would provide uniforms but the boots were the person's responsibility.


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## no tree to big (Jul 8, 2017)

Zale said:


> I hear what you are saying but I've had new guys go down with heat exhaustion and I try to eliminate that possibility if I can. We also would provide uniforms but the boots were the person's responsibility.


We do uniforms through cintas if you make it past the 2 month mark. you get t shirts if you make it past a week if we gave uniforms and t shirts from day one we would go broke, we get a lot of very short term folks. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Zale (Jul 8, 2017)

no tree to big said:


> We do uniforms through cintas if you make it past the 2 month mark. you get t shirts if you make it past a week if we gave uniforms and t shirts from day one we would go broke, we get a lot of very short term folks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



Maybe if you gave them water and some ice. Just saying. Hell, they are all probably going to work for Cape. I hear he buys them coffee, donuts and lunch.


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## no tree to big (Jul 8, 2017)

Zale said:


> Maybe if you gave them water and some ice. Just saying. Hell, they are all probably going to work for Cape. I hear he buys them coffee, donuts and lunch.


It's not even that, people apply they assume they are only going to drive the truck to the job then sit there for 8 hrs... we tell them at the pre employment meeting you will drive truck to job then you will labor you will drag brush move logs rake you will not have an easy job but they still show up thinking I'm just gonna drive truck, it's pretty rediculous.

One guy goes through the deal shows up and goes oh I thought I'd be riding a lawnmower. It's like who said that? nobody, the company doesn't own a single mower who would hire a mower guy? Did he confuse us for another co? 

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## Zale (Jul 8, 2017)

Maybe he thought he would ride the mower to drag the brush.


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## capetrees (Jul 9, 2017)

Bottom line is generally, people don't want to work hard. Seems like more and more people are allergic to sweat.


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## ATH (Jul 9, 2017)

Zale said:


> Maybe he thought he would ride the mower to drag the brush.


Only if it is a Steiner.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 9, 2017)

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/etools/08-006/EWP_water.htm

Jeff


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## no tree to big (Jul 9, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/etools/08-006/EWP_water.htm
> 
> Jeff


"Where drinking water is not plumbed or otherwise continuously supplied, it shall be provided in sufficient quantity at the beginning of the work shift to provide one quart per employee per hour for drinking for the entire shift." 

There ya go turn on the faucet at the shop it leads to bazillions of gallons of water problem solved

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## beastmaster (Jul 9, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cal-OSHA say's the company *Shall* supply 2 gallons per person,, believe me, I got the ticket,,and yes, we are a fun place to work!
> Jeff


I was working a job up north, it was rainining and cold. A inspector came out and shut our job down for two hours intell the 6 of us had two gals. Each. Nearest store was 20 miles a way.


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## beastmaster (Jul 9, 2017)

Since i started this thread we gone throu two more guys both only lasted one day.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 10, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cal-OSHA say's the company *Shall* supply 2 gallons per person,, believe me, I got the ticket,,and yes, we are a fun place to work!
> Jeff


Yes well; I spoke with a lady that was fined for providing ice water by cal-osha. It seems they said, it could induce shock and said room temperature water is the requirement. Lady told the officer her men wanted ice water it did not matter still fined. I shook my head in utter disbelief and new-found respect for home. California is utterly beautiful in my experience so far, it is however over regulated way too expensive and makes a country boy feel like a fish outta water. I'm trying very hard to see the good as well as the bad of your beautiful state but my hat is off to those that have lived here long term as for the life of me i cannot see how the working class can survive.


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## JeffGu (Jul 10, 2017)

Cal-OSHA does, indeed require cool (below ambient temperature) water on the site, 2 gal. per worker, or a quart per hour. If potable water is available at the site, you can replenish it as needed, but you need to carry a hose with whatever vehicle carries the water around. I used to keep a 5-foot drinking-water-suitable hose wrapped around one of the five-gallon coolers. I had an entire crew get pretty sick from drinking from a garden hose that was left under pressure lying in a homeowner's yard. You'd be amazed at how many nasty bugs will grow in the hose when you do that, hence the need for the short hose certified for drinking water. They sell these at home improvement centers, etc. for use with campers. Water that's heavily iced down can induce shock that can give you instant stomach cramps or knock you out cold if you guzzle it. Better to keep ice in a seperate cooler, and throw a little in the drink coolers once in awhile.

I've switched to buying the bottled water when it's on sale. I get 24-packs for $2 and sometimes 32-packs two for $4 all the time, at dollar stores, farm stores, you name it. I've never found either the 5-gallon coolers or the bottled water to be much of an inconvenience or expense. It's nothing compared to the inconvenience and expense of heat exhaustion and a crew that's dragging ass because they're dehydrated and don't realize it. I not only encourage, but insist, that anyone working with us takes frequent drink breaks. Production has always been better when nobody is cranky, woozy or worn out from working in the heat while dehydrated.

If OSHA insisted that everyone wears a pink tutu and silver ballerina slippers at work, I'd agree that was over-regulation. Personally, I've never met a regulator who wasn't just doing his job and trying to get employers to care about their employees. Maybe there's a big, evil OSHA guy out there who just wants to drive around all day and make up stupid **** for people to do that doesn't mean anything... but I've never met him. I've met an awful lot of people who spend half the day whining about the government in an air conditioned vehicle or bar or coffeeshop, while they left a crew of eight guys working their asses off on a hot roof five stories up, with no water or gatorade and making **** wages. Oddly enough, they're usually bitching that they can't keep workers, either. Big surprise, there.

I think that anyone who can figure out how to get a construction job completed successfully, can probably figure out how to keep the crew healthy and happy while they're at it. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, myself.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 10, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Cal-OSHA does, indeed require cool (below ambient temperature) water on the site, 2 gal. per worker, or a quart per hour. If potable water is available at the site, you can replenish it as needed, but you need to carry a hose with whatever vehicle carries the water around. I used to keep a 5-foot drinking-water-suitable hose wrapped around one of the five-gallon coolers. I had an entire crew get pretty sick from drinking from a garden hose that was left under pressure lying in a homeowner's yard. You'd be amazed at how many nasty bugs will grow in the hose when you do that, hence the need for the short hose certified for drinking water. They sell these at home improvement centers, etc. for use with campers. Water that's heavily iced down can induce shock that can give you instant stomach cramps or knock you out cold if you guzzle it. Better to keep ice in a seperate cooler, and throw a little in the drink coolers once in awhile.
> 
> I've switched to buying the bottled water when it's on sale. I get 24-packs for $2 and sometimes 32-packs two for $4 all the time, at dollar stores, farm stores, you name it. I've never found either the 5-gallon coolers or the bottled water to be much of an inconvenience or expense. It's nothing compared to the inconvenience and expense of heat exhaustion and a crew that's dragging ass because they're dehydrated and don't realize it. I not only encourage, but insist, that anyone working with us takes frequent drink breaks. Production has always been better when nobody is cranky, woozy or worn out from working in the heat while dehydrated.
> 
> ...



Good post.
Jeff


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 11, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Cal-OSHA does, indeed require cool (below ambient temperature) water on the site, 2 gal. per worker, or a quart per hour. If potable water is available at the site, you can replenish it as needed, but you need to carry a hose with whatever vehicle carries the water around. I used to keep a 5-foot drinking-water-suitable hose wrapped around one of the five-gallon coolers. I had an entire crew get pretty sick from drinking from a garden hose that was left under pressure lying in a homeowner's yard. You'd be amazed at how many nasty bugs will grow in the hose when you do that, hence the need for the short hose certified for drinking water. They sell these at home improvement centers, etc. for use with campers. Water that's heavily iced down can induce shock that can give you instant stomach cramps or knock you out cold if you guzzle it. Better to keep ice in a seperate cooler, and throw a little in the drink coolers once in awhile.
> 
> I've switched to buying the bottled water when it's on sale. I get 24-packs for $2 and sometimes 32-packs two for $4 all the time, at dollar stores, farm stores, you name it. I've never found either the 5-gallon coolers or the bottled water to be much of an inconvenience or expense. It's nothing compared to the inconvenience and expense of heat exhaustion and a crew that's dragging ass because they're dehydrated and don't realize it. I not only encourage, but insist, that anyone working with us takes frequent drink breaks. Production has always been better when nobody is cranky, woozy or worn out from working in the heat while dehydrated.
> 
> ...




I am still not sure if I am allowed to wear a pink tutu to work or not.


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## no tree to big (Jul 11, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> I am still not sure if I am allowed to wear a pink tutu to work or not.


As long as it fully covers your purple thong

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## JeffGu (Jul 11, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> ...not sure if I am allowed to wear a pink tutu...



Umm... we'll need pics of that_... _we might want to frighten some small children or sign you up with an account/profile on a dating site...


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## MSgtBob66 (Jul 14, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> I remember minimum wage in California at $2.10 an hour,,
> Jeff


I remember, and worked for $1.75/hr (min wage) in MN. Got a $0.50 raise to work after school. Vegetable truck farm.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 16, 2017)

I think anybody that pays anybody minimum wage to do anything is scum and shows no respect even for himself or the business he is in much less the people he relies on in order for him to survive.

I am amazed this backwards paradigm exists!


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## ropensaddle (Jul 18, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Cal-OSHA does, indeed require cool (below ambient temperature) water on the site, 2 gal. per worker, or a quart per hour. If potable water is available at the site, you can replenish it as needed, but you need to carry a hose with whatever vehicle carries the water around. I used to keep a 5-foot drinking-water-suitable hose wrapped around one of the five-gallon coolers. I had an entire crew get pretty sick from drinking from a garden hose that was left under pressure lying in a homeowner's yard. You'd be amazed at how many nasty bugs will grow in the hose when you do that, hence the need for the short hose certified for drinking water. They sell these at home improvement centers, etc. for use with campers. Water that's heavily iced down can induce shock that can give you instant stomach cramps or knock you out cold if you guzzle it. Better to keep ice in a seperate cooler, and throw a little in the drink coolers once in awhile.
> 
> I've switched to buying the bottled water when it's on sale. I get 24-packs for $2 and sometimes 32-packs two for $4 all the time, at dollar stores, farm stores, you name it. I've never found either the 5-gallon coolers or the bottled water to be much of an inconvenience or expense. It's nothing compared to the inconvenience and expense of heat exhaustion and a crew that's dragging ass because they're dehydrated and don't realize it. I not only encourage, but insist, that anyone working with us takes frequent drink breaks. Production has always been better when nobody is cranky, woozy or worn out from working in the heat while dehydrated.
> 
> ...


To fine someone for providing ice water is totally insane. That was my point not the long winded bs you laid down, ok enjoy your luke warm water bud


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 18, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> I think anybody that pays anybody minimum wage to do anything is scum and shows no respect even for himself or the business he is in much less the people he relies on in order for him to survive.
> 
> I am amazed this backwards paradigm exists!



You make no sense.

If I figure the hours I put in, I make about 1/2 of what my guys do.

I don't rely on anyone to survive, they just make it where collectively more work can be done in a day. But I'm still the one putting in 100+ hr weeks, no one else.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 20, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> You make no sense.
> 
> If I figure the hours I put in, I make about 1/2 of what my guys do.
> 
> I don't rely on anyone to survive, they just make it where collectively more work can be done in a day. But I'm still the one putting in 100+ hr weeks, no one else.



I hear what you are saying: That you have no choice, that somehow there is no money to pay a person very much for their time.

I know everybody else has to get their money before the menial bastard can "earn" minimum wage.

Still, in this field especially, minimum wage is a dirty word.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 20, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> You make no sense.
> 
> If I figure the hours I put in, I make about 1/2 of what my guys do.
> 
> I don't rely on anyone to survive, they just make it where collectively more work can be done in a day. But I'm still the one putting in 100+ hr weeks, no one else.



Your last statement makes me believe that you don't like it either.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 21, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> You make no sense.
> 
> If I figure the hours I put in, I make about 1/2 of what my guys do.
> 
> I don't rely on anyone to survive, they just make it where collectively more work can be done in a day. But I'm still the one putting in 100+ hr weeks, no one else.


 
If you're making half of what your guys are and their making miminmum wage, then you need to rethink your business model, 100 hour weeks at $5/hr is not sustainable. If you are paying your guys $10/hr (nice round number for this example), they should be earning you between $25 and 30/hr. That is the revenue from their work should be the equivalent of $25-30/hr.

I make around $25/hr, but my charge out rate (or the rate used in estimating) is $90. The rest pays for taxes, insurance, equipment, repairs, salesmen/management, and profit.

The effect of minimum wage increases over time works its way through the system. You pay more in wages, you have to charge more. If you are a supplier or wholesaler, then the people you supply have to charge more to match your increases. The people who really get screwed are those on a fixed income, seniors etc because pension increases don't match the increase in the Cost of Living.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jul 21, 2017)

BC WetCoast said:


> If you're making half of what your guys are and their making miminmum wage, then you need to rethink your business model, 100 hour weeks at $5/hr is not sustainable. If you are paying your guys $10/hr (nice round number for this example), they should be earning you between $25 and 30/hr. That is the revenue from their work should be the equivalent of $25-30/hr.
> 
> I make around $25/hr, but my charge out rate (or the rate used in estimating) is $90. The rest pays for taxes, insurance, equipment, repairs, salesmen/management, and profit.
> 
> The effect of minimum wage increases over time works its way through the system. You pay more in wages, you have to charge more. If you are a supplier or wholesaler, then the people you supply have to charge more to match your increases. The people who really get screwed are those on a fixed income, seniors etc because pension increases don't match the increase in the Cost of Living.




I think he mean that since he owns the business he is never really "off the clock".

And that sure is true!!


He doesn't make any money when he is fixing the splitter, talking to clients, doing paperwork, etc.


What is sounds like he is doing is just finding people for cheap when he needs some things done. This kinda work only the most desperate of Mexican will do... or some poor dumb white kid for a day or two... a black guy would kill you if you tried with him.

I am sure he needs more than just a " wood stacker".

The one guy around here just buys loads and loads of wholesale firewood made from a huge company who does whatever to get ahold of all the trees they are cutting down around here to build more shopping malls and condos.

So to ask for 50 or more dollars to stack firewood ,well, that's the low end.

Said and done a "cord" gets to your house for about 300 the "legal" way around here. If you want it stacked at the client's you would have to charge around 50-70 bucks.

These city folk farmers are better off with oil and propane, the firewood is a luxury. There is no way you can tell me you can save money by using firewood that you have to pay for. There is just to much involved to make it cost more than oil or propane.





Of course this wood sucks and doesn't even measure up to a real cord but I don't think that matters. It seems the more you make them pay the more they like the firewood but that can't be! Can it?


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## Jackbnimble (Aug 16, 2017)

Zale said:


> We've all hired that same kid.



Yea and neither of you boys ever paid me.


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## Jackbnimble (Aug 16, 2017)

gorman said:


> I hired that same kid.




And you still owe me


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## chipper1 (Aug 16, 2017)

beastmaster said:


> If you took a 100 Millennials and a 100 born in 1920's handed them shovels told them to start digging who do you think would have the deepest hole?


Neither, the millennials would fall into the holes dug by the old folks and would be crying about job site safety, hypotheticals pssst.


DR. P. Proteus said:


> Not to many college students can change a spare tire.


Ask them how many miles to the gallon their car gets, no, not what the lie o meter says .


hseII said:


> The High Schools have all but done away with Home Economics & Shop Class: this, along with the demonization of HardWorking Heterosexual Men, has caused this crop of no nothings.


That's the truth Heath.


bikemike said:


> Easy to tell if a new guy is going to be good. 1. If he/she works hard but not too hard to kill them self in 2 hrs.
> 2 What they bring for food n drink to the job site.
> 3 do they observe there surroundings and look to the sound of a saw
> 4 pick up a rake and put it to use


They got their water, well some, and chips lol.



capetrees said:


> Bottom line is generally, people don't want to work hard. Seems like more and more people are allergic to sweat.


I found I was allergic to it yesterday, it burned my eyes, and it made my safety glasses dirty.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 16, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> I think he mean that since he owns the business he is never really "off the clock".
> 
> And that sure is true!!
> 
> ...


Firewood here still 175 to 200 cord delivered and stacked if your lucky! Thats true 128 cu ft too


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## chipper1 (Aug 16, 2017)

ropensaddle said:


> Firewood here still 175 to 200 cord delivered and stacked if your lucky! Thats true 128 cu ft too


That's cheap, lot of labor & expenses, no money in the wood.
I feel it's best to sell a load of rounds right off the trailer when possible. I also like to split it right off the trailer as it saves a step, or two.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 16, 2017)

chipper1 said:


> That's cheap, lot of labor & expenses, no money in the wood.
> I feel it's best to sell a load of rounds right off the trailer when possible. I also like to split it right off the trailer as it saves a step, or two.


Tell me about it I have a tw6 and its still too cheap.


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## chipper1 (Aug 16, 2017)

ropensaddle said:


> Tell me about it I have a tw6 and its still too cheap.


I buy and sell a lot of saws and splitters, so I'm making money of them and it's still to cheap, and I've made money before I sell the wood lol.


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## TreeMonkee58 (Aug 16, 2017)

I am a fan of rental equipment, when it breaks you call for repair or replacement. Maintenance costs are reduced and lease fees are a direct right off.


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## chipper1 (Aug 16, 2017)

TreeMonkee58 said:


> I am a fan of rental equipment, when it breaks you call for repair or replacement. Maintenance costs are reduced and lease fees are a direct right off.


Welcome to AS TM.


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## Jackbnimble (Aug 16, 2017)

chipper1 said:


> Welcome to AS TM.


 I'm not living, loving, laughing. I'm broke and not learning nothing. And you come along and rub it in. 

Plus I'm dumb, stupid, slow, old and ugly.


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## chipper1 (Aug 16, 2017)

Jackbnimble said:


> I'm not living, loving, laughing. I'm broke and not learning nothing. And you come along and rub it in.
> 
> Plus I'm dumb, stupid, slow, old and ugly.


I thought you was nimble and quick.


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## Jackbnimble (Aug 16, 2017)

chipper1 said:


> I thought you was nimble and quick.



back in the day. "how'd you know?" used to call me twinkle toes teddy


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 16, 2017)

chipper1 said:


> That's cheap, lot of labor & expenses, no money in the wood.
> I feel it's best to sell a load of rounds right off the trailer when possible. I also like to split it right off the trailer as it saves a step, or two.



I agree, dang cheap, but we do not know his market,, we would get $400 a full cord for euc delivered but not stacked, now we can barely give it away.
The suburban area folks have their sources but urban san diego has fireplaces that are gas with a fake stuff. 
Jeff


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## chipper1 (Aug 17, 2017)

jefflovstrom said:


> I agree, dang cheap, but we do not know his market,, we would get $400 a full cord for euc delivered but not stacked, now we can barely give it away.
> The suburban area folks have their sources but urban san diego has fireplaces that are gas with a fake stuff.
> Jeff


For sure, in our market you still see it advertised at 150 a cord, we only burn hardwood here too.
I plan on delivering ricks this year for 100, if I sell what I have at the house I can pay for my new pole building to get built and the concrete, I'll have to "work" for the electric and all the other niceties such as insulation and drywall, lights and such .


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## chipper1 (Aug 17, 2017)

Jackbnimble said:


> I bolted for safety behind another large tree.


.


Jackbnimble said:


> back in the day. "how'd you know?" used to call me twinkle toes teddy


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 17, 2017)

chipper1 said:


> For sure, in our market you still see it advertised at 150 a cord, we only burn hardwood here too.
> I plan on delivering ricks this year for 100, if I sell what I have at the house I can pay for my new pole building to get built and the concrete, I'll have to "work" for the electric and all the other niceties such as insulation and drywall, lights and the such .



Should sell Dans, Johns, and Mikes too.


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## chipper1 (Aug 17, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Should sell Dans, Johns, and Mikes too.


Will I get a straight commission, hourly plus com., or just hourly .


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 17, 2017)

chipper1 said:


> Will I get a straight commission, hourly plus com., or just hourly .



Eh, same rate you get with the ricks.


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## chipper1 (Aug 17, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Eh, same rate you get with the ricks.


Nice, so I get 100% of the sale, who's going to load and deliver .
I just need to know the cities they are in and we'll get it sold for them .


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