# Vertical Shaft wood splitter?



## avalancher (Nov 25, 2008)

I recently found an almost brand new Briggs 12.5 hp electric start vertical shaft engine on CL for 50 bucks, and have been considering building a new splitter using this to power a 16GPM pump, but I am having a time finding a bracket to mount the pump with.I noticed a lot of the MTD, Troy Built splitters have vertical shaft engines, but the bolt pattern is different than what is on the Briggs.
Anyone have any suggestions as to where you can find a vertical shaft bracket?NT doesnt have a listing for one, and I have done a google search without any luck.
Any disadvantages to a vertical shaft engine vs a horizontal?
How big of a pump can you power with a 12.5 hp?


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## leon (Nov 25, 2008)

*engines smengines/petrol junkies*



avalancher said:


> I recently found an almost brand new Briggs 12.5 hp electric start vertical shaft engine on CL for 50 bucks, and have been considering building a new splitter using this to power a 16GPM pump, but I am having a time finding a bracket to mount the pump with.I noticed a lot of the MTD, Troy Built splitters have vertical shaft engines, but the bolt pattern is different than what is on the Briggs.
> Anyone have any suggestions as to where you can find a vertical shaft bracket?NT doesnt have a listing for one, and I have done a google search without any luck.
> Any disadvantages to a vertical shaft engine vs a horizontal?
> How big of a pump can you power with a 12.5 hp?



Avalancher,

greetings and salutations from my corner of the soon to be frozen 

"Eastern Wilderness @1140 feet above mean sea level".


You did not mention whether the engine has the four equidistant 

holes in the crankcase casting for a stand off pump bracket and 

lovejoy coupler.


First obtain the type number, serial number, series number, code 

number on the fan housing then:


First stop :The Briggs and Stratton web site" 

And then look up the model number of the engine and look further 

down the listings for all the different model types and options 

BUUUUUUUUUUUUT if the engine in question does not have the 

four equally spaced drilled holes in the crankcase casting 

surounding the crankshaft for a pump bracket and "Lovejoy 

coupler" it will not be possible to mount a bracket anyway.

leon  :agree2:


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## darren_nh (Nov 25, 2008)

I can't help on the bracket, but these guy's say a 22gpm will run on 12hp.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008112508551019&item=9-4896&catname=hydraulic


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## avalancher (Nov 25, 2008)

leon said:


> You did not mention whether the engine has the four holes in the crankcase casting for a stand off pump bracket and lovejoy coupler.
> 
> First obtain the type number, serial number, series number, code number on the fan housing then:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the advise. How about making your own bolt pattern by bolting the engine to a piece of plate with the existing bolt holes,then drilling the four holes for the pump bracket?
hate to scrap this project already, the engine is absolutly mint.


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## leon (Nov 25, 2008)

*log splitter, ugh!*



avalancher said:


> Thanks for the advise. How about making your own bolt pattern by bolting the engine to a piece of plate with the existing bolt holes,then drilling the four holes for the pump bracket?
> hate to scrap this project already, the engine is absolutly mint.



The problem is alignment; a trip to a local machine shop wil get you what you need as the entire mounting has to be linear and adding brackets that are not factory spec or designed for it are asking for trouble simply due to vibration and centrifugal forces generated by the coupler if it is not aligned properly. 


Look at the Briggs and Stratton web site with your engine numbers in hand as it is really the only way to get the proper brackets and couplers.


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## Swamp Yankee (Nov 25, 2008)

Don't know if this helps

Speeco uses a similar Briggs set up on their 35 ton machine. I don't know if the coupling and adapter will mate with your engine but it might be worth a trip to Tractor Supply, if there's one around, or a call to Speeco and see what you can find out.
May be able to pick up everything you need to couple in;

Or then again maybe not.

Take Care


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## Mike Van (Nov 25, 2008)

I'll get a pic. later today of my Didier - It uses a Lovejoy with a simple angle bracket, not 4 tapped holes on the engine. O.K., here's a pic. Mine's a horizontal, but the same type bracket for the pump is all you'd need for a vertical. I made one years back for my truck crane.




Some fairly simple machine / welding or drilling. Mount the vert. engine on top of your base, your pump bracket will work better under the base if you use slotted holes where it goes under the engine, if you need some small adjustment, you can get it. May take a little to get it the right length, etc. but it's do-able for sure.


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## dawzie (Nov 25, 2008)

How about belt driven?? The people at Grainger Supply helped me on figuring pulley sizes needed for rpm and h.p.


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## brisawyer (Nov 25, 2008)

I built mine from plate and box tubing. I have acesss to a machine shop so it was easy to get the alignment right. I can get pics and a good description if you are interested. There is a pic of it in the 45 ton splitter thread. I may even still have the alignment tool I will look fri.


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## nitro (Nov 26, 2008)

tractor suppy ,and northern tool both have the mounts 
I put a 12hp ohv snow blower motor with electric start for 50 bucks and then had to upgrade my pump to 16 gpm to lower my laptimes 
JUST DO IT .....


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## NYHuskyguy (Nov 26, 2008)

Be careful when trying to set up a log splitter. What you really want to make sure of is that the crankshaft comes out the side and not the bottom. The big difference in the two is substantial. 

The problem with the shaft coming out the bottom is that it wears on the seals immediately. The weight of the pump is ALWAYS too much for the seals to bear. That is why places like tractor supply have splitters that are so much cheaper than say, an Iron and Oak. Splitters with the shaft out the side are not built for longevity. In fact most of those are simply just lawn mower engines. 

If you want to buy a splitter that will last, make sure the crankshaft comes out the side. This is of course, provided that you can make that it happen that way. If you have no other choice, than that is your situation. 

If you can help it, get yourself a little sideways! 

-Kevin


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## RON58 (Nov 26, 2008)

*Bull ####*

If ya do it right with the proper mount you'll have no problems.The properly set up pump,motor and mount will place NO load on the seals.All the splitters we use have split mountains of wood and the seals are dryer than a popcorn fart.If ya got use it.


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## NYHuskyguy (Nov 26, 2008)

RON58 said:


> If ya do it right with the proper mount you'll have no problems.The properly set up pump,motor and mount will place NO load on the seals.All the splitters we use have split mountains of wood and the seals are dryer than a popcorn fart.If ya got use it.




For sure if you set it up right, anything will work. I agree 100% as long as there is no load on the shaft or the seals, you should be fine.


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## Bowtie (Nov 26, 2008)

Are you implying that the pump just hangs from the motor? Ya, that will trash a pump quick. My vertical shaft Briggs spins a 13.6 pump bolted to a steel bracket I made. I have split countless cords of wood with it.

Plus, vertical shaft engines are cheap and plentiful.


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## NYHuskyguy (Nov 26, 2008)

Yea I am. I sell splitters and have customers come to me after going to Tractor Supply. Almost all of them over there are free hanging. CRAP!!! If you support it, then you SHOULD be fine, buuuut I dunno.


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## Locoweed (Nov 26, 2008)

NYHuskyguy said:


> Be careful when trying to set up a log splitter. What you really want to make sure of is that the crankshaft comes out the side and not the bottom. The big difference in the two is substantial.
> 
> The problem with the shaft coming out the bottom is that it wears on the seals immediately. The weight of the pump is ALWAYS too much for the seals to bear. That is why places like tractor supply have splitters that are so much cheaper than say, an Iron and Oak. Splitters with the shaft out the side are not built for longevity. In fact most of those are simply just lawn mower engines.
> 
> ...


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## NYHuskyguy (Nov 26, 2008)

Locoweed said:


>


Hey Russ,

If I am full of it, let me know what should have been said differently. I sell these things and this is what a professional would tell you about them.

Thanks.

-Kevin


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## kevin j (Nov 26, 2008)

so, are you seeing vert shaft motors with pumps hanging down free, with some sort of torque arm on them, but no fixed mout bracket?
Like the old PTO add on pumps for old farm tractors?
Then I could see the side load destroying pumps and I would agree. 
But if mounted properly on a rigid bracket, and coupling alignment good, no difference to the pump.

Belt drives, no way. Bearings aren't strong enough.

Lots of V twin, 10-15 hp, electric start junked lawn tractors out there cheap.

kcj


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## tanker (Nov 26, 2008)

kevin j said:


> so, are you seeing vert shaft motors with pumps hanging down free, with some sort of torque arm on them, but no fixed mout bracket?
> Like the old PTO add on pumps for old farm tractors?
> Then I could see the side load destroying pumps and I would agree.
> But if mounted properly on a rigid bracket, and coupling alignment good, no difference to the pump.
> ...



exactly 100% right.My next splitter that i build will have a vertical engine just because of the price difference. Scott


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## NYHuskyguy (Nov 26, 2008)

For sure, they are a lot cheaper. What I was trying to say was that most of the splitters (with the vertical shaft) that you encounter do not have ANY type of support for the pumps. They just hang there. Those are the cheap ones and most people that work with them would consider them disposable. If you build some type of bracket for them, as long as supports it, you should be fine. My only concern other than that would be to use some type of anti-vibe pad to ease the stress on the machine further. That is if you are going to build it yourself.


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## brisawyer (Dec 2, 2008)

Did you locate the pump adapter you needed?


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## SWI Don (Dec 2, 2008)

*Here is how I did it.*

I got a pump mount for a Kohler horizontal from Surplus Center. I then made an motor mount / adapter plate our of 3/8" plate to join the two. The plate has bolt patterns for both the engine and the pump mount. I countersunk the pump mount holes and tack welded some 7/16" flat head cap screws into the holes making studs out of them. This was I could remove the pump mount with out having access to the top of the plate (the engine is in the way). The engine just bolts to the plate. 

I used a heavy duty lovejoy and the distances all came out great. If you look closely at the pic you will notice the lower jaw half has slipped down. I did readjust and loctite the set screws and have had no issues since. 

Don


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## avalancher (Dec 2, 2008)

SWI Don said:


> I got a pump mount for a Kohler horizontal from Surplus Center. I then made an motor mount / adapter plate our of 3/8" plate to join the two. The plate has bolt patterns for both the engine and the pump mount. I countersunk the pump mount holes and tack welded some 7/16" flat head cap screws into the holes making studs out of them. This was I could remove the pump mount with out having access to the top of the plate (the engine is in the way). The engine just bolts to the plate.
> 
> I used a heavy duty lovejoy and the distances all came out great. If you look closely at the pic you will notice the lower jaw half has slipped down. I did readjust and loctite the set screws and have had no issues since.
> 
> Don


Thanks for the pic, that is exactly what I had in mind to do if I was unable to locate a pump mount that would work for this engine. I havent had any time to do any further looking for a pump mount that would bolt right up, firewood sales have gone through the roof right now, and its all I can do to even get any sleep right now.


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## George G (Dec 2, 2008)

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008120206412883&item=1-1581-A&catname=hydraulic


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## Dave M (Dec 2, 2008)

NYHuskyguy said:


> For sure, they are a lot cheaper. What I was trying to say was that most of the splitters (with the vertical shaft) that you encounter do not have ANY type of support for the pumps. They just hang there. Those are the cheap ones and most people that work with them would consider them disposable. If you build some type of bracket for them, as long as supports it, you should be fine. My only concern other than that would be to use some type of anti-vibe pad to ease the stress on the machine further. That is if you are going to build it yourself.




What keeps the pump from spinning when the engine is started ??? the hoses??

ALL the splitters I have seen, have a mounting bracket for the pump....vertical or horizontal shaft.

I woul like to see a picture of a free hanging pump....


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## NYHuskyguy (Dec 2, 2008)

Dave M said:


> What keeps the pump from spinning when the engine is started ??? the hoses??
> 
> ALL the splitters I have seen, have a mounting bracket for the pump....vertical or horizontal shaft.
> 
> I would like to see a picture of a free hanging pump....



What keeps the pump from spinning?! Are you kidding me?! They mount to the engine.

Go to a big box store, you will see them.


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## KsWoodsMan (Dec 2, 2008)

NYHuskyguy said:


> Be careful when trying to set up a log splitter. What you really want to make sure of is that the crankshaft comes out the side and not the bottom. The big difference in the two is substantial.
> 
> The problem with the shaft coming out the bottom is that it wears on the seals immediately. The weight of the pump is ALWAYS too much for the seals to bear. That is why places like tractor supply have splitters that are so much cheaper than say, an Iron and Oak. Splitters with the shaft out the side are *not* built for longevity. In fact most of those are simply just lawn mower engines.
> 
> ...



Your statements are confusing. First they are wrong then the others are wrong. OK , a typo probably but the engine crankshaft isn't supporting any of the weight.

A lovejoy coupler doesnt transfer any of the weight from the pump to the engine. So there would be no additional wear on a thrustbearing/seal.

I'm thinking the cost difference between TSC and I&O splitters is the cost of materials, labor, engineering and craftsmanship. 


Nothing wrong with using an electric start motor on a splitter. Regardless of where it was used initially if it runs and does the job, get the good out of it.


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## avalancher (Dec 2, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> Your statements are confusing. First they are wrong then the others are wrong. OK , a typo probably but the engine crankshaft isn't supporting any of the weight.
> 
> A lovejoy coupler doesnt transfer any of the weight from the pump to the engine. So there would be no additional wear on a thrustbearing/seal.
> 
> ...



Kind of what I figured, a hydralic motor doesnt care what position its in to work, and I just didnt see any problem with a vertical mount except that the mount seems to be a little less common. Although I have a good splitter now with a Honda vertical engine, I am looking for some more speed, and figured the best way to go about it was to move up in HP and fluid flow, and this engine came along to answer the problem. I have a 5.5 right now pushing a 11gpm pump, and figured that this 12hp pushing a 16 or even a 22gpm pump oughta really make this thing sing without losing any of the tonnage.


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## Zodiac45 (Dec 2, 2008)

avalancher said:


> Kind of what I figured, a hydralic motor doesnt care what position its in to work, and I just didnt see any problem with a vertical mount except that the mount seems to be a little less common. Although I have a good splitter now with a Honda vertical engine, I am looking for some more speed, and figured the best way to go about it was to move up in HP and fluid flow, and this engine came along to answer the problem. I have a 5.5 right now pushing a 11gpm pump, and figured that this 12hp pushing a 16 or even a 22gpm pump oughta really make this thing sing without losing any of the tonnage.



yep I agree. I think you could fab up what you need or draw it and see a welder friend. My splitters a verticle shaft and she's been running for 7 yrs without a single problem. While only 6-8 cords a year it's still been ultra dependable and was less than a grand new.


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## merlynr (Dec 2, 2008)

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Here's 3 pics of my homemade splitter using an 11hp vert shaft B&S eng with elec start and 16.5 gpm pump. The pump and bracket were ordered from NT.
I obtained the lovejoy coupler locally (1" motor side/1/2" pumpside)


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## NYHuskyguy (Dec 2, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> Your statements are confusing. First they are wrong then the others are wrong. OK , a typo probably but the engine crankshaft isn't supporting any of the weight.
> 
> A lovejoy coupler doesnt transfer any of the weight from the pump to the engine. So there would be no additional wear on a thrustbearing/seal.
> 
> ...



Yes, Captain Typo HAS entered the building. Side good. Bottom Bad.


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## avalancher (Dec 2, 2008)

NYHuskyguy said:


> Yes, Captain Typo HAS entered the building. Side good. Bottom Bad.



Well, you still havent given a plausible reason as to why "Side good, bottom bad".
Aint trying to be a smarta$$ here, but in reality hydrolic motors and pumps dont really care how they are mounted, sideways, upside down, vertical what have you.
True, most of the splitters on the market that are vertical mounted are the cheap junk because they take advantage of the fact that most vertical engines are manufactured to be put in "throw away" type equipement, hence they are cheaper, but that sure doesnt hold with all vertical engines. 

I know in my particular case I wouldnt waste my time building something that in the end will run better than 1500 to build then throw a cheap engine on it, but lets face the facts. A horizontal 12hp gas engine brand new is going to run you close to the $600 mark, maybe more. But, the engine that I happened across is well worth mounting on my project, very few hours, well maintained by my estimation. 

From the looks of some of the posts on this topic, a lot of guys have had good luck with a vertical mount.


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## brisawyer (Dec 2, 2008)

When I built my pump mount

I took 1 plate and drilled it to match the pump there is a raised boss around the shaft I think its around 1.5" this locates the pump this needs to be a close fit. Then I drilled another large plate to match the engine.

I took a piece of 4x4 box tubing aprox 5" long and cut some windows in the sides to be able to tighten the setscrews on the Lovejoy.

Made an alignment tool on the lathe. Aluminum round stock drilled and reamed 1" on one end and 1/2" on the other.

Bolted plates to the pump and engine put the alignment tool on the engine shaft put the box tubing between pump and engine with the pump shaft in the alignment tool tacked and checked for squareness.

Before I disassembled to weld I found 2 places in the engine mounting feet to drill for roll pins. The roll pins are there so you can assemble/disassemble without worrying about alignment.

Welded and just for good measure put it on the mill and took a light cut to make sure plates were parelell.

It was a lot of work but I couldnt find what I needed and the alignment is near perfect. I enjoy this kind of work as much as firewood.

I chose the vertical because the 10 and 12 horse Briggs are plentiful on junk mowers. Usually they can be found free on trash day in the spring.


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## Locoweed (Dec 2, 2008)

NYHuskyguy said:


> Hey Russ,
> 
> If I am full of it, let me know what should have been said differently. I sell these things and this is what a professional would tell you about them.
> 
> ...



Any so called "professional" that tried to spin that bunch of nonsense to me would instantly disqualify himself and his qualifications as a "professional".

It appears to me that you don't know what you don't know about the subject. If you are a salesman for these things I think you would be well served to learn a bit more about them.


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## cityevader (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah..you say they hang there with no support whatsoever, and someone calls you on that, "the hoses keep it from spinning?!?".....so you then say it's bolted to the engine...which is it? Maybe you need to clarify what you are saying to get your idea across as to how vertical mount influences pumps.


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## Dave M (Dec 2, 2008)

NYHuskyguy said:


> What keeps the pump from spinning?! Are you kidding me?! They mount to the engine.
> 
> Go to a big box store, you will see them.



Why don't you read my post and comprehend it...IT CLEARLY STATES THAT THEY ARE ALL HAVE MOUNTING BRACKETS.

YOU are the one that stated they have no support. :monkey:


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## avalancher (Dec 2, 2008)

I made a few phone calls to Speeco, a name that I figured would have the juice on why most "good" splitters use a horizontal engine versus a vertical. After repeating my question many times to many different folks, I finally got some guy that seemed to know what he was talking about.

The biggest issue according to the Speeco employee is the clearence issue. Vertical mount engines leave the pump closer to the ground since the main idea in placing the pump is to have it below the supply tank. This ends up with the pump close to the ground, taking a chance on it getting hit when towed over uneven ground.Makes perfect sense to me. When I asked him about placing the tank and pump higher, he said that since the beam and ram are already above the axle, the addition of the engine,tank full of fluid, and pump would increase the tendency of being top heavy.

Not a big deal when towing it around your yard, but a concern on the highway. Since splitters are narrow but high, the idea in engineering using a horizontal mount engine allowed for the lower center of gravity.

I then asked if there was any disadvantage or advantage to a vertical mount engine, and he replied, "sure, cost" Vertical engines are a bit cheaper to buy, but aside from the clearance issue, there was no difference from a horizontal.

Makes sense to me!

Speeco can be reached at 800.525.8322


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