# Enforcing Safety



## BCMA (Aug 20, 2009)

I have decided it is time we as an industry start enforcing our safety regulations. These pictures were taken at a commercial establishment. There is absolutely no PPE. The pictures were sent to OSHA in our state for enforcement. OSHA tell me that they can and will levy fines from pictures. OSHA has already tried to contact the commercial establishment for their contact information. They said they can also through the Sherriff’s Department get personal information from a license plate. My pictures included the license plate, which happened to be out-of-state plates. The individuals were not state registered contractors, which is a law of our state.
I think it is time we start enforcing the laws, standards, and professionalism of our industry. Let me encourage other professionals to do the same.


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## Pruitt1222 (Aug 20, 2009)

Where do you send the pictures into?


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 20, 2009)

Come on man , its TACO BELL!:greenchainsaw:


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 20, 2009)

Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.

If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.


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## fishercat (Aug 20, 2009)

*i think he has already pissed several people off.*



Nailsbeats said:


> Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.
> 
> If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.



notice his location.kinda vague.


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## treemandan (Aug 20, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.
> 
> If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.



Jeez, why don't you let him know how you really feel.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 20, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Jeez, why don't you let him know how you really feel.



How do you feel about Taco Bell?:monkey:


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## fishercat (Aug 20, 2009)

*%&*(#[email protected] unbelievable!*

people trying to make a living! what the hell is this world coming to?

i guess i'm gonna just start beating everyone i see with a camera.is that an OSHA violation?


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 20, 2009)

fishercat said:


> people trying to make a living! what the hell is this world coming to?
> 
> i guess i'm gonna just start beating everyone i see with a camera.is that an OSHA violation?



As long as your wearing gloves and a hard hat , you can beat them all you want!


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## treemandan (Aug 20, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> How do you feel about Taco Bell?:monkey:



well, I have been known to eat a taco or two... buts that's as far as it goes.
I personally think whoever told them kids that what they where doing is OK should be locked up. But I am not going to turn rat, unless I really know.
There is a dude round here that is looking for a bucket truck operator, this bucket should be out of commission but it isn't and the owner is still looking for someone ( someone else besides him) to go up in it. I don't think I have much of choice on this.


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## BCMA (Aug 20, 2009)

A couple of days ago I met and had breakfast with one of my main competitors. We talked about the numerous fly-by-night tree services in the area that have reciently started up. We both agreed that it was time to start doing our own policing, and try to raise the level of professionalism in our area. I’m not against a man making a living. I will help anyone who wants to come to me and ask for help.

Tomorrow, our family and the family of another competitor are going out on the lake to picnic and water ski. This is the third year of doing this.

My point is this- We have good comradely among us as professional tree care providers. We eat, play, and recreate together. We as professionals believe it is important to be legit and follow the rules. Do we sometimes fail…absolutely. Do we correct the problems as we find them…absolutely. In our company we want to foster a culture of safety so everyone goes home at the end of the day. It’s really a pretty simple concept.


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## tree MDS (Aug 20, 2009)

BCMA said:


> I have decided it is time we as an industry start enforcing our safety regulations. These pictures were taken at a commercial establishment. There is absolutely no PPE. The pictures were sent to OSHA in our state for enforcement. OSHA tell me that they can and will levy fines from pictures. OSHA has already tried to contact the commercial establishment for their contact information. They said they can also through the Sherriff’s Department get personal information from a license plate. My pictures included the license plate, which happened to be out-of-state plates. The individuals were not state registered contractors, which is a law of our state.
> I think it is time we start enforcing the laws, standards, and professionalism of our industry. Let me encourage other professionals to do the same.



What is your back hurting again??

Chill dude! Its just a couple lawn jockeys doing a hack elevation. 

Big deal, happens all the time here - still real treework to be had.


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## senechal (Aug 20, 2009)

Hey nailsbeats

You can give your argument to a fallen teenager's parents when they bury him after some ####### boss defied regulations and opted not to inform them.

Those screwballs make us all look bad, post the pics all day long and hi fives to all of you that are part of the solution.


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## lego1970 (Aug 20, 2009)

When guys like that get injured it affects everybodys workers comp rates but the last thing we need to do is give OSHA and other state agencies an excuse to dip their hands into the cookie jar. Next time something like that happens write down the company name and write them a letter explaining that while you understand PPE is a pain in the butt, especially on hot days, not wearing it is against the law and when injuries happens it affects all of us in the industry. I think most companies would rather read a tactful letter from you then have government officials thowing fines at em. Also I don't know how legal it is for you and your competitor to team up and try to monopolize the market, even if it's supposedly for the safety of the industry.


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## rngrchad (Aug 20, 2009)

I know you really mean well but I have to do this.

*Neg rep coming your way.
*
Just what we need more regulations and bigger government


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## Bearcreek (Aug 20, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.
> 
> If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.



:agree2: Well said. I'll be with you on that day.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 20, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.
> 
> If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.



Careful the liberals will call you an angry mob.


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## pdqdl (Aug 20, 2009)

*I'll give you points for guts...*

I thought I was stirring up trouble a few posts back by picking fights with the tree mulchers and the tree fertilizers.

Wow! This topic seems to assure you of getting plenty of conflict.

I think perhaps a better approach might be to confront offenders personally. I'm afraid I don't believe in "bigger government", nor do I think that any amount of industry self-regulation would correct the problem. Chainsaws are on sale at every big box hardware store, and there are lots of folks that grew up without hearing protection, hard hats, or chaps.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Just to stirr the pot a bit. So let's say you are a good legit contractor. You are licensed, bonded, insured, and you pay all your worker's comp and other taxes. You work hard to provide a good service at a good price and you uphold a professional image in all your operations.

Then along comes some punks with a truck and a saw and they don't pay taxes because they work under the table. They underbid you because they pay none of the business fees, insurance and taxes that you pay. Their equipment is chit, and they have saved hundreds, if not thousands of dollars by not buying PPE for their workers. Meanwhile when one of them gets hurt on the job they just go to the emergency room and get treated and then leave and never pay the bill.

Next you find out the work they did is substandard and they damaged the trees that they were working on. The did improper cuts that peeled big hunks of bark down the trees and you now know that in 2-5 years the trees will be stressed enough that they will die. Yet, had you done the work the trees would have done just fine and not died from being trimmed.

As an honest hard working business man that has all the insurance/taxes/worker's comp etc paid up how does that make you feel?

I saw it all the time when I sold firewood. My wood was dry and had been cut and split for at least a full year. Yet hundreds of times in my career I would deliver to a house that had 1-3 cords of green as grass firewood sitting in the person's garage. They would buy the stuff from the yahoo with a truck and a saw that was backing up to an easy log and chopping it up and throwing it on the truck to sell it. No drying whatsoever, and cheap to a level I could not compete against. Meanwhile I was using ~$40K worth of equipment to get firewood from a real woods with water/bugs/mud/etc and sitting on my finished inventory of wood for a year so it was dry and ready to burn, safely, the moment it was delivered. Those yahoos with their trucks and their green wood pizzed me off big-time. Oh,and my dad made sure I had insurance in case I was hurt, and I was a few times. Firewooding is dangerous work.

I'm sorry but folks that do not follow the rules pizz me off. It is no different than drivers with cars that have no license, no registration and no insurance driving clunkers down the road. Being in business is no different. There are rules to protect everyone, they should be followed.


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## pdqdl (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree with you on that. But I don't go down the road checking other driver's license plates, either.

The Romans had a nice phrase to cover the problems you described: "Caveat Emptor". Let the buyer beware. It is, after all, a free market system. Every regulation reduces the freedoms, but promises greater protections. The best balance is somewhere between no regulation and total government control.






[most folks don't know about the flip side of that phrase: "Caveat venditor". Let the seller beware.]


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## outonalimbts (Aug 20, 2009)

*Here- Here! Yes it is time professionals DEMAND professional ethic!*

I feel the OSHA complaint is valid! I think anyone that buys or uses a chainsaw should be REQUIRED to get a license prior to purchasing a saw. A chainsaw is perhaps the most dangerous tool an inexperienced homeowner can buy over the counter. I can't remember how many times I have seen people choppin' a tree from a ladder or without any PPE! You know the insurance companies think that a tree care professional is PRONE to have Personal Injury Claims and they BOOST the rates for this reason.

Screw the people that think that any safety violation should be looked past, as these are the same people that fail to recognize that we are doing the MOST dangerous job in the world! So what that commercial fisherman have their own show on Discovery channel, the run of the mill tree worker is more likely to become a statistic whether they are hurt or killed in the field.

That PPE that they are wearing only protects them, it doesn't prevent an accident. But, with that added protection they are more likely to live through the accident then if they disregard it. 

I climb almost every day, I do wear PPE, I get chips in my eyes even though I wear safety glasses, I get hit in the head occassionally it hurts but my helmet protects from it killing me.

One climber I watched last week, grabbed a dead branch and went to throw it on the ground- as it slipped from his bare hand it deposited a 6" long splinter through his hand, he had to decend to get first aid. 

I agree with the idea of reporting those that are violating the rules, I am not a rat, but if it will prevent even 1 injury it is worthwhile. On the otherside of the argument, I wouldn't want a fine to be levied- for ignorance, OSHA doesn't play games with the fines- They can shut down a business if they want in just a couple of charges.

I provide all the PPE for my crew- they complain that it is hot, or makes them look like a geek, I don't care. It lowers my insurance, they can wear it or go work for the guys in the pictures!


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## lego1970 (Aug 20, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I agree with you on that. But I don't go down the road checking other driver's license plates, either.
> 
> The Romans had a nice phrase to cover the problems you described: "Caveat Emptor". Let the buyer beware. It is, after all, a free market system. Every regulation reduces the freedoms, but promises greater protections. *The best balance is somewhere between no regulation and total government control*




:agree2: 

My Father always told me that "God gave me two ears, two eyes, and only one mouth. Try to use them in that proportion". I'm not always good with that, but I try.


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## treemandan (Aug 20, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Careful the liberals will call you an angry mob.



They would be about right.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 20, 2009)

Taco Bell tends to bid out corporate contracts that cover a handfull of stores, and they always go low bid. Which is probably why it was an out of state operator, they may have been doing 100 places in two weeks or some ungodly criteria. They are probably not the owners, just under trained and low skilled. At their paygrade, they should not be running chainsaws.

I know Nels is not one of them, but i have seen some of the people kvetching about reportage also do it about hacks working in there area. Hmmm.

I have been sorely tempted to do the same thing, I do not think unskilled people should be running a saw for hire, at least as an employee.


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## treemandan (Aug 20, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Taco Bell tends to bid out corporate contracts that cover a handfull of stores, and they always go low bid. Which is probably why it was an out of state operator, they may have been doing 100 places in two weeks or some ungodly criteria. They are probably not the owners, just under trained and low skilled. At their paygrade, they should not be running chainsaws.
> 
> I know Nels is not one of them, but i have seen some of the people kvetching about reportage also do it about hacks working in there area. Hmmm.
> 
> I have been sorely tempted to do the same thing, I do not think unskilled people should be running a saw for hire, at least as an employee.



here here ya got some jerkoff who thinks he is going to send them kids out and make the money. That ain't right.


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## dingeryote (Aug 20, 2009)

Around here we often take a dim view of others sticking thier friggin Nose where it dosn't belong. 
Don't do it.

Those two idiots are working for a dip#### boss...
Big deal. 
They are working.

If you're smart, you'll send those pics of the two idiots to the CLIENT along with YOUR bid for the job, and an explanation of the liabilitys they are currently exposed to by contracting with Hacks.

Get smart, and creative. Quality sells.


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## clearance (Aug 20, 2009)

I suggest first starting with the ISA, seeing as how you are a member, and having them hold thier members to the standards they preach. Untill that outfit gets it together to keep any credibility, I think you should leave working people alone.:monkey:


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## BCMA (Aug 21, 2009)

Tree work is dangerous stuff. Yesterday I read in our local newspaper that a worker was injured working for a tree service company. I have been operating in this area for 18 years and have never heard of this company. The article said that he was hit with the top of a tree, breaking numerous bones and severed his spinal cord. They took him to a hospital 300 miles away for specialized help. 

Folks, this happens somewhere every day, and almost all of it is preventable. 
I have mixed feeling about what I did today, but I still feel I did the right thing. If all of us started practicing proper safety and training, we can reduce the accidents.

BTW, these guys were not working for Taco Bell. TB is across the street from where they were working. They were working for a major commercial complex on about 40 acres. These were trees lining the street and sidewalk.

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.


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## dingeryote (Aug 21, 2009)

BCMA said:


> Tree work is dangerous stuff. Yesterday I read in our local newspaper that a worker was injured working for a tree service company. I have been operating in this area for 18 years and have never heard of this company. The article said that he was hit with the top of a tree, breaking numerous bones and severed his spinal cord. They took him to a hospital 300 miles away for specialized help.
> 
> Folks, this happens somewhere every day, and almost all of it is preventable.
> I have mixed feeling about what I did today, but I still feel I did the right thing. If all of us started practicing proper safety and training, we can reduce the accidents.
> ...




No resistance to "Compliance", but resistance to the objectionable practice of snitching like a little girl to a regulating agency that can and does shut down businesses for even minor infractions and one instance of an employee bieng a dumbass.

Be carefull what you wish for.
OSHA can find your own operation non compliant at any time, even if you think you have your stuff all in one bag. 

It's better to educate the clientelle in your area to the liabilitys of hiring hacks and have them change the dynamic with thier wallet.

Lest we have safety police on every corner writing tickets to children for running with scissors.

I have seen the "Safety culture" get so out of hand, that work could not be performed without a waiver from three levels of management and a legal review. It ain't pretty.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## fishercat (Aug 21, 2009)

*so what.it happens.*



BCMA said:


> Tree work is dangerous stuff. Yesterday I read in our local newspaper that a worker was injured working for a tree service company. I have been operating in this area for 18 years and have never heard of this company. The article said that he was hit with the top of a tree, breaking numerous bones and severed his spinal cord. They took him to a hospital 300 miles away for specialized help.
> 
> Folks, this happens somewhere every day, and almost all of it is preventable.
> I have mixed feeling about what I did today, but I still feel I did the right thing. If all of us started practicing proper safety and training, we can reduce the accidents.
> ...



i don't recall anyone asking you to babysit.you are not gonna stop anything.you are gonna start something though.customers are going to have to learn the hard way.a previous poster was talking about firewood.so the customer got cheap.i bet they thought twice the next time they bought it when they remembered back when the watched water boil out the ends of the wood as they froze their asses off. 

people are going to be cheap and make stupid decisions.guys are going to start out small without the proper gear and learn the hard way.i do not want to see anyone get hurt but sometimes that is the price some people pay for living in a free country.

i say if you don't like it here,move to Europe where they share your views. 

next you're gonna want homeowners banned from getting on a ladder and trimming their own trees.as much as i hate to see it ,it's their tree and their property.it's not my job to babysit them.

i got news for you guys.all this regulation and government intrusion has not made this a better country.quite the contrary.

do your damn job and mind your own business.


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## fishercat (Aug 21, 2009)

*oh boy.*

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.[/QUOTE]

you got a lot of safety gear but no common sense.stop wasting money on hardhats because you don't have anything between your ears to protect.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2009)

fishercat said:


> i don't recall anyone asking you to babysit.you are not gonna stop anything.you are gonna start something though.customers are going to have to learn the hard way.a previous poster was talking about firewood.so the customer got cheap.i bet they thought twice the next time they bought it when they remembered back when the watched water boil out the ends of the wood as they froze their asses off.
> 
> people are going to be cheap and make stupid decisions.guys are going to start out small without the proper gear and learn the hard way.i do not want to see anyone get hurt but sometimes that is the price some people pay for living in a free country.
> 
> ...


 Hell yeah man. I know this isnt an American only forum but this thread is mostly being debated by people from the states.

People seem to forget why we went to war with England in the first place. Too much government and we are heading back down that path.

Watch This Video


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## fishercat (Aug 21, 2009)

*it is meant for the states.*



Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Hell yeah man. I know this isnt an American only forum but this thread is mostly being debated by people from the states.
> 
> People seem to forget why we went to war with England in the first place. Too much government and we are heading back down that path.
> 
> Watch This Video



i assume he lives here.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 21, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> It's better to educate the clientelle in your area to the liabilitys of hiring hacks and have them change the dynamic with thier wallet.



That's the key right there. Take all the pics of the hacks you want but don't tattle to mommy, use them as a selling point to your customers. Show them a pic of a hack's operation and show them a pic of yours. Let them decide. I personally like the hacks. Yeah, they get the cheapo HO's and they can HAVE them. All the hacks do is make my operation look better. I work PPE into all my sales pitches. It's best when a shady operation sets up right next to our work site and the customers can SEE the difference first hand and realize what they're paying for.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 21, 2009)

You're always going to have cheap customers who will hire anyone. I don't want those customers. Hell, I used to be one of those guys without insurance or much gear running around doing side jobs for the cheapskates. Ya know how many of those HO's have called me back? None. In the year and a half that we've been insured, legit, wearing our PPE, and charging reasonable rates instead of undercutting everyone's bid I get calls from repeat customers ALL THE TIME and I love it, the job basically sells itself.


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## blueatlascedar (Aug 21, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> No resistance to "Compliance", but resistance to the objectionable practice of snitching like a little girl to a regulating agency that can and does shut down businesses for even minor infractions and one instance of an employee bieng a dumbass.
> 
> Be carefull what you wish for.
> OSHA can find your own operation non compliant at any time, even if you think you have your stuff all in one bag.
> ...



I'm trying to see both sides of the proverbial coin here. I hate the hacks and unprofessional lowballers, but I hate big brother in my face too. Several years ago I was up 40-50' thinning a wide spread n. maple and saw a suit standing close by watching me. I didn't pay much mind till I saw him inching his way closer and he had put a bright shiny white hard hat on. As I looked at him intently, he motioned for me to shut my saw off. Then he insisted I come down and speak with him, he as from OSHA. I said to him, it took me a lot of time and energy to get up this tree and you want me to come down before I'm done pruning it? He said, come down now or I'll site you for non compliance. I said can't you speak to one of my men and he said they said you were in charge of this operation. Needless to say I came down and was an unhappy camper and perhaps my attitude was a little poor by this time. He began breaking my balls about not climbing with chaps. I told him, while in a tree chaps weren't needed and when I come down to cut and clean up, I wear them. Sheesh my 2 groundies had them on. Then he said my eye protection wasn't up to standard. I said these puppies are rated to withstand a bb gun fired at them at 15', I'm quite certain they are good enough for treecare (bought from K. Kuemmerling INC). We went back and forth over many little issues and we were found not to be fined but warned on somethings I didn't know were violations. But my point is, I have always placed high emphasis on professionalism, staying safe, obeying *Known laws* in the industry. I asked him why he wasn't breaking balls with many of the local hacks with no PPE, no comp, no wc ins, etc... His response, cause I'm here with you at the moment. It pissed me off and put me in a bad mood the rest of the day, so this is why I'm mixed on this topic. I want to see the hacks burnt, but don't know how I feel dropping the dime on them to do it. Well nuff said, work safe and keep the profession moving forward.


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## fishercat (Aug 21, 2009)

*how can you drop the dime on them?*

you all started off in compliance?from day one? i don't believe you.


Osha ain't going after the hacks and joe pick up guys.they don't have enough money and are probably going to be combative.just the way it is.

they never bothered me but they day they do they will have their hands full.i guess i'll be in OSHA jail.


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## treeseer (Aug 21, 2009)

" The pictures were sent to OSHA in our state for enforcement."

My only question is, Did you copy the company owner and the municipality too? Re the serious feedback here, maybe saving OSHA up your sleeve if other levels do not respond may be a better idea...

Why were the trees being raised--so the lawnmowers had a clearer shot at the trunks?


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 21, 2009)

A tornado touched down South of Minneapolis in an old neighborhood this last Wednesday afternoon. Within 2 hours the tree service places were swarming all over the place. Yesterday the city went around and found and fined 12 guys with no insurance or liscense to work in the city. The one city official said a lot more dashed mid job as soon as they saw the city vehicles show up. One even left behind his saw, that has to hurt because it was a decent saw. Some of the services doing the tree work are charging 4-5X what they would normally charge and so the city is trying to protect the people from being charged excessive amounts. They showed one clown with a truck crane reaching over to a ~4' diameter oak resting on a house and the guy was trying to lift way too much of the tree. Stuff like that can cause more damage to the house.

I am torn too about the no insurance or proper taxes and such. It is one thing to help out the little old lady that does not have wadds of money to throw around, but a business hiring hacks is a different ball game. The work is a tax deduction. Its gets passed on as a part of doing business. The business cannot hire regular employees and not pay their SS, worker's comp and not operate without a liscense, so why should his tree service workers be any different?

Rather than fink on them to OSHA I would have ratted them out to the city first and certainly the guy that hired them. Not as much bite and maybe they would get the hint and get legal. The way those guys were dressed they should not be working with saws.


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

2009 and I'd be willing to bet that one in every three owners have yet to read the regulations for themselves. Tree operations is a day to day challenge of managing extreme risk -- If you choose ignorance to the risks and options to mitigate those risks as an owner or foreman, you are multiplying your own risk by every crew member you lead. Never mind Europe or Obama, if you publicly claim yourself as an advocate of skating around regs, you might as well piss all over the grave of the 3 North American tree workers put to an early grave every day.


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## BCMA (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm sure the arborist laying over in Harborview Medical Center right now with broken bones and a severed spinal cord would love to know how his work could have been done more safely. 

There are other things that were not captured by picture such as the guy standing on his tippy toes with the saw extended one handed trying to cut limbs out of reach. A good recipe for driving that chainsaw down through his skull and killing him. I also saw that when the saw was too big to make small cuts, they literally broke the branches off by hand. No loppers or hand pruners. Their truck was an unmarked beat-up suburban with out of state license. No name or phone number to call. Never seen these guys in our little town of 30,000.

From the responses, I can see that most in our industry are going to sit idly by and let every hack continue to pull us to the bottom. It’s no wonder the public views tree services with suspicion.


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## BCMA (Aug 21, 2009)

From OSHA:
I received the email and photos. The matter has been addressed with the Mall Manager and the contractor performing the work via an 'Non-Formal' complaint. It was reported that the alleged hazards in question had been addressed by our close of business yesterday.

Thank you for concerns regarding safety and health in the workplace.

Patrick T. Nies
Safety Compliance Officer
Occupational Safety & Health Administration

It looks like the problem has been solved. OSHA has done their job in a respectful manner. Hopefully, there will be better complience, and the tree care industry will be better viewed by the public because of it.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 21, 2009)

BCMA wrote:

"We have good *comradely* among us as professional tree care providers."

That would be: "camaraderie." I hate to be a nitpicker, but you are, afterall, a BCMA, right?

I am a bit bothered by something others have mentioned, in here. Where, exactly, are you located? If you want to be some kind of tree-police guy, and I'm not against that, I believe you should have the balls to state your location. Otherwise, you honestly come off as some kind of devious weasel.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 21, 2009)

*OK, Tim, you're in Hayden, Idaho*

Grace Tree Service, Inc.

Not sure why you chose the "Earth" location. With a population of around 13,000, how many tree services are there in your area? I guess I can understand acute paranoia about hacks when the pie is so small that you can only slice it a few times before there's not enough for anyone.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 21, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Wrong!
> 
> The resistance is against snitches who's real gripe is that they didn't get the work!


:agree2:


BCMA, should we go back to the pictures you have posted here of your work and submit them to OSHA for safety infractions. Think we can find some? Think they can?
You have achieved BCMA status and that should set you apart from your competition ensuring business. Resorting to mob tactics is less than honorable.
i will think 2wice before posting pictures here on AS going forward.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 21, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> :agree2:
> 
> 
> Should we go back to the pictures you have posted here of your work and submit them to OSHA for safety infractions. Think we can find some? Think they can?
> ...



This gets interesting. I think posting pictures is a good idea. If something stands out as being wrong and/or out of (some) code, so be it. The poster has a learning experience. I do not think that the, "Ah-hah, GOTCHA!" mindset is a good one. Rather, if you (or I) are doing something incorrectly, and that gets pointed out, we're the better for it. OSHA is not very active in Austin, TX. I have been inspected on a job site, once, and never received any notice of violations. However, if I found that I was in violation, I'd want to know it so I could reach compliance. Regulations are not a bad thing if they make sense. If they don't, you get involved in the legislative process, something I did in my last life as a tattooist/body piercer. To present before a state legislative sub-committee and then see your proposal get turned into a law is very cool.


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## Metals406 (Aug 21, 2009)

Everyone that has posted in this thread, regularly violates OSHA Regulation on a daily/weekly basis. . . Should we have people driving around, taking pictures, and turning people in?

Perhaps we should install cameras in everyones homes as well? . . You know, for safety reasons. We don't want people being accountable for their own actions. . . We need to protect them from themselves. Cameras should be installed in peoples bedrooms as well--you know--in case they're doing stuff we don't agree with.

We should probably follow people around in vehicles, and turn them in to the Government for all their traffic transgressions. . . But it's for safety. I'm a bit concerned about people recreating on lakes' and waterways too. . . I'll go ahead and start taking pictures of their watercraft activities as well--of course--for safety.

Maybe I can earn some brownie points with the Powers that Be, and get a break on my taxes? Maybe an honorary badge for all the squealing I'll be doing? Maybe some frequent squealer miles?

You know what they say about inviting the Devil in? . . Good luck getting him back out.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 21, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> :agree2:
> Should we go back to the pictures you have posted here of your work and submit them to OSHA for safety infractions. Think we can find some? Think they can?



In his defense I think there is a difference between MINOR infractions for safety and GROSS displays of a disreguard of safety. It is one thing to miss something small, but when the dudes are working with chainsaws in sneakers and shorts, come on, that is a bit extreme.

Take this photo for example. Someone point out one thing this kid is doing that is safe, one thing:






Here is a partial list of things I can see right off the top:
No eye protection what so ever and he is about to go dicing and slicing where sticks will be flying towards his face.
No ear protection at all
No brain bucket, but not sure there is much to protect there anyway.
No work boots let alone steel toed shoes.
Shorts! I mean come on, if the branches do not scratch him all the heck one tiny slip of that saw and his leg is toast. Even jeans will at least slow down a saw a little (DAMHIKT).
And they have their oil next to their drinks. I know I am nit picking on that one but that is just not a good practice.


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

Metals, Your point is granted, but at the opposite extreme, operators left to police themselves from workplace injuries and deaths did such a good job of it that the government stepped in and we now have regulations intended as guidelines, but are regularly enforced with fines and shutdowns. Where's the disconnect? Common sense isn't all that common.


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## silk (Aug 21, 2009)

BCMA said:


> Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.
> 
> From the responses, I can see that most in our industry are going to sit idly by and let every hack continue to pull us to the bottom. It’s no wonder the public views tree services with suspicion.



"Pulls up chair, opens a beer."

This ought to be good.


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## clearance (Aug 21, 2009)

clearance said:


> I suggest first starting with the ISA, seeing as how you are a member, and having them hold thier members to the standards they preach. Untill that outfit gets it together to keep any credibility, I think you should leave working people alone.:monkey:



BCMA, how about you start here, like I have suggested. Until the ISA starts to uphold its commandments, ie, no topping, trimming with spurs, by or for ISA certified supervisors, then ISA certification holds little weight.


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## Metals406 (Aug 21, 2009)

senechal said:


> Metals, Your point is granted, but at the opposite extreme, operators left to police themselves from workplace injuries and deaths did such a good job of it that the government stepped in and we now have regulations intended as guidelines, but are regularly enforced with fines and shutdowns. Where's the disconnect? Common sense isn't all that common.



Good, then the dumb ones will weed themselves out. And what extreme? I wasn't extreme!? The dude is stopping whatever he's doing, and taking the time to sneak up on someone else to secretively photograph their activities. . . He then uses information he's collected to propagate his own agenda and inflated ego.

What he did is no different then him doing it to people in their homes, in their recreation, or anywhere they may be.

What happened 100 years ago when someone lost an arm drilling a gas well? And let's say they were working as safely as possible, but as we all know, accidents happen no matter the level of preparation.

Now this guy loses an arm. . . Did he sue the well owner? Did he turn the owner in for "unsafe work conditions"? Did he whine that the government wouldn't take care of him the rest of his life? Did he insist he DESERVED medical treatment on everyone else's dime?

Nope, he sucked it up. He knew his job had risk, and when he started his first day on the job he contractually assumed and accepted that risk. He consciously, and willfully took his own life in his own hands, and operated on his own accountability.

If you're unwilling to assume the risk of treework, work at McDonald's. . . If you're unwilling to assume the risk of driving, don't drive. If you're unwilling to assume the risk of smoking a cigarette or cigar, don't smoke.

I don't need a herd of do-gooder, self righteous douche-bags' running my life, telling me what I can and can't do, what I can and can't eat, and how often I breath!

This country/world is infested with ass-hats' that think they have a Right to take away the Rights of others. 
:rant:


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## treemandan (Aug 21, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I'll stand with Nels!
> 
> You don't hear BMCA complaining about people talking on cell phones while driving.....it's about the money!




but what about this:
Allright, I have been working with my ins with this guy, lets call him Josh Lord ( cause that's his name). A while back you might recall something about me walking off a job? Well that's him, been in this 30 years or so, drinks Canadian whiskey, got the shakes, totally worthess SOB, has no idea how to do it, what to charge or even if the kids he sends out will die while he sits in the fire station bar drinking cheap Canadian Whisky. Man, ever try the stuff? 
So the two kids call me and practically beg me to come back so they have a job, so they can work. I sometime bring them out with me but nothing steady and I don't want to STEAL employees ( though I should but I can't keep them busy all year and don't really want the responsiblity for them) 
Well Mr. Lord has got his old bucket, let me draw a picture:

1. birds live in the boom ( nice family, been there for some time)
2. the boom is cracked 
3. the pedestal that holds the boom is cracked
4.the bearings in the turny thing for the boom are gone, well some of them
5. it leaks everywhere

Now the truck itself is kinda beat up but they drive it and chip into it and Josh is always telling me about " bucket jobs" he has to do and I say" Josh, I can't believe you keep dumping money into this thing, you can be serious." I might have even threatened to rat him out as well.
Jesse, the red head, he goes up in it, it don't have a tie in point even. But he goes up no saddle. In fact I tried to go up in it awhile ago but couldn't, just couldn't make myself.
I don't really care to much about Josh, I look at him like he is my agent who pays me. I made him go up in the thing last week, he was shaking all over and came down in a hurry. The guy should be put down if you know what I mean. 
You know I often wonder how I could work with the guy and realized it cause I can. Me Jesse and John do it well and I have to say some of my barking is the reason. Soon I hope to have some hats on them but I swear I want to really hurt that guy Josh who supposes it just great to keep bidding on bucket jobs. Hell I just climbed three today with the thing sittin there when I could have easily just used it to tie in and Jesse is telling me about when he was in it last


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## pdqdl (Aug 21, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> ... It is one thing to miss something small, but when the dudes are working with chainsaws in sneakers and shorts, come on, that is a bit extreme.



I can show you any number of threads proudly supported by professional climbers, showing guys climbing trees in full climbing harness wearing shorts while clearly running a chainsaw. Ohhh! That's right! It's ok to run a chainsaw without chaps while you are swinging around hanging from a rope. Clearly a much safer activity than standing on the ground or on top of a brush pile.

While it is a far cry from wearing chaps, I don't think shorts are the big issue here.

Let's face it guys. There is too much ambiguity in the application and enforcement of the rules. As has been pointed out previously, everybody that ever posted on this site has broken the rules, and the unsafe operators are always going to be present. Some folks think there should be more enforcement, others think there should be fewer rules.

I think OSHA writes up a fairly high standard of performance, which allows them to fine hell out of someone for not following the rules. Then they come take you out when there are employee complaints or on the job injuries. Until then, they seem to leave us mostly alone, which is how I prefer to keep it.

I had an on the job fatality, but I never heard a peep from OSHA, or any other regulatory agency. I was amazed to hear from you guys that had actually been visited on the job.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 21, 2009)

clearance said:


> BCMA, how about you start here, like I have suggested. Until the ISA starts to uphold its commandments, ie, no topping, trimming with spurs, by or for ISA certified supervisors, then ISA certification holds little weight.



The ISA members I know, most of them Certified Arborists, would not do the above-indicated practices. On what are you basing your charges? I suppose some members of any organization are going to deviate from the established standards every now and then, but I have found my fellow ISA members to be very conscientious in how they go about their business. While there may be a difference between ISA members and ISA Certified Arborists when it comes to upholding standards, without a reliable way to oversee the comings and goings of each and every member, it is impossible to substantiate assertions of 100% compliance or its opposite, so why bother? While we're at it, how the :censored: would ISA "uphold its commandments" anyway?

As for ISA certification holding little weight, you are wrong, plain and simple. I have gotten city, state and county gigs based solely on the fact that I'm an ISA Certified Arborist. You can argue until you're blue in the face but you will still be flat-out wrong. After doing some of these jobs I've gotten more work from these entities because I do excellent work, but the ISA certification got my foot in the door.


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## blueatlascedar (Aug 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I can show you any number of threads proudly supported by professional climbers, showing guys climbing trees in full climbing harness wearing shorts while clearly running a chainsaw. Ohhh! That's right! It's ok to run a chainsaw without chaps while you are swinging around hanging from a rope. Clearly a much safer activity than standing on the ground or on top of a brush pile.
> 
> While it is a far cry from wearing chaps, I don't think shorts are the big issue here.
> 
> ...



With my situation, the OSHA inspector was just driving down the highway towards the town I live in. He saw our signs along the road stating "Caution Treework Ahead" and figured, why not pop in and do a spot inspection. My attitude towards him wasn't as good as it could of been, but like I posted earlier, I was doing a tedious pruning in a very wide tree with lots of limb walking and was pissed I had to come out of the tree before finishing the work up there. My attitude may've contributed to his snotty attitude or maybe that was his MO.


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

And in these dark days before modern medicine available in remote jobsites, a simple complacent action would more often than not be a sentence to death. Lets not forget the complications of surviving an injury that renders you physically unable to work. 

Your good old boys idealist view looks great on paper, but you ignore the good old boys still active in our industry that have seen the ways of old and new, and would more than likely say you are out of your mind for wishing upon their early days. 





Metals406 said:


> Now this guy loses an arm. . . Did he sue the well owner? Did he turn the owner in for "unsafe work conditions"? Did he whine that the government wouldn't take care of him the rest of his life? Did he insist he DESERVED medical treatment on everyone else's dime?
> 
> Nope, he sucked it up. He knew his job had risk, and when he started his first day on the job he contractually assumed and accepted that risk. He consciously, and willfully took his own life in his own hands, and operated on his own accountability.


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm always hesitant to post in BCMA's threads. I can't tell if the guy means everything he says or if he is just baiting everyone to get a laugh. Some of the goofy stunts this guy pulls... i.e. taking pictures of a couple college kids working and posting them on the internet...I just can't picture an on the level guy doing.

Hey if tree work ever goes south, you could probably fit in well with the paparazzi.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2009)

Go to this post on Crane Job

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047

He actaully posted pics with him or his guy cutting a big fir with a single tie in and one of his people running a saw mill with zero PPE on. 


Hers a picture of his new house.

Hes out rounding up a bunch of new stones now.


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## clearance (Aug 21, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> The ISA members I know, most of them Certified Arborists, would not do the above-indicated practices. On what are you basing your charges? I suppose some members of any organization are going to deviate from the established standards every now and then, but I have found my fellow ISA members to be very conscientious in how they go about their business. While there may be a difference between ISA members and ISA Certified Arborists when it comes to upholding standards, without a reliable way to oversee the comings and goings of each and every member, it is impossible to substantiate assertions of 100% compliance or its opposite, so why bother? While we're at it, how the :censored: would ISA "uphold its commandments" anyway?
> 
> As for ISA certification holding little weight, you are wrong, plain and simple. I have gotten city, state and county gigs based solely on the fact that I'm an ISA Certified Arborist. You can argue until you're blue in the face but you will still be flat-out wrong. After doing some of these jobs I've gotten more work from these entities because I do excellent work, but the ISA certification got my foot in the door.



I have stated facts here many times, over the past few years, much of it supported by others here. Some of the facts lied about by a couple, but thats been forgiven by me. It is a fact that utility guys here climb with spurs to trim, with the full knowledge and often times direct observation by supervisors from the utility, who are all ISA certified, many threads here on that topic. As well as some municipal arborists, who are ISA certified, so, those are my facts. 

And how would the ISA uphold it commandments-perhaps they could call up the utility and ask, uhhh, like for starters, like 'Do all your contractors men climb with spurs to trim',......sheesh, is it that hard, like a phonecall........

Maybe ask our buddy Mr. Tom Dunlap, I am sure he would love to have this talk again..not.

Anyways Sunrise, I have listened to your views here, never have you offended me, and you are most likely a good climber, so, I have no problem with you at all, hope I have answered your question.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 21, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Go to this post on Crane Job
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047
> 
> He actaully posted pics with him or his guy cutting a big fir with a single tie in and one of his people running a saw mill with zero PPE on.



bcma would want you to submit his infractions to OSHA.



BCMA said:


> I think it is time we start enforcing the laws, standards, and professionalism of our industry. Let me encourage other professionals to do the same.



Very disturbing.


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## Sciuropterus (Aug 21, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> A tornado touched down South of Minneapolis in an old neighborhood this last Wednesday afternoon. Within 2 hours the tree service places were swarming all over the place. Yesterday the city went around and found and fined 12 guys with no insurance or license to work in the city. The one city official said a lot more dashed mid job as soon as they saw the city vehicles show up. One even left behind his saw, that has to hurt because it was a decent saw.



I own a rental property in that area, we all got hit hard. A city-owned boulevard tree fell into the street, crushing my neighbor's truck. Me and the neighbor were looking at the truck under the tree, one tree service quoted $1300 to remove the tree. Next tree service quoted $800. Some guy with a chainsaw quoted $300.

An hour later, the city crews removed it for free, since it was in the street.

The contractors are descending on the area like vultures. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting some guy with a clipboard who wants to speak to the homeowner.


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 21, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Go to this post on Crane Job
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047
> 
> ...




Yikes, I lanyard up even when I'm using a handsaw.


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## fishercat (Aug 21, 2009)

*Lmao*






that guy is me without hearing protection and prescription glasses.

oh,i don't haul brush in trailers either.

my shirt has my Co. name and phone # to make snitching on me easier for the "sand in the panties" crowd.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 21, 2009)

clearance said:


> I have stated facts here many times, over the past few years, much of it supported by others here. Some of the facts lied about by a couple, but thats been forgiven by me. It is a fact that utility guys here climb with spurs to trim, with the full knowledge and often times direct observation by supervisors from the utility, who are all ISA certified, many threads here on that topic. As well as some municipal arborists, who are ISA certified, so, those are my facts.
> 
> And how would the ISA uphold it commandments-perhaps they could call up the utility and ask, uhhh, like for starters, like 'Do all your contractors men climb with spurs to trim',......sheesh, is it that hard, like a phonecall........
> 
> ...



Yeah, we're cool. No problem. It's tough to pin anyone down on hard violations on gigs unless pictures are taken, but I know that sometimes is tough to do. The thought of "tree police" is something I'm not positive I would like, but somehow, some way, if there is more accountability in our profession, we will all benefit, and the hacks will have a harder time.


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## Metals406 (Aug 21, 2009)

senechal said:


> And in these dark days before modern medicine available in remote jobsites, a simple complacent action would more often than not be a sentence to death. Lets not forget the complications of surviving an injury that renders you physically unable to work.
> 
> Your good old boys idealist view looks great on paper, but you ignore the good old boys still active in our industry that have seen the ways of old and new, and would more than likely say you are out of your mind for wishing upon their early days.



My Great-Grandfather would say we live in the dark days. He would chose to lose an arm, rather than have some schmuck take his picture, and turn him in to some bloated, corrupt Government controlled agency. In fact, that would have been grounds for a royal ass-whoopin' in the days when men were steel and ships were wood.

BTW, he lost a finger to a circular mill. . . No lawsuit, no whining, no claim that the saw manufacturer made a dangerous product. And we know that life never has 'complications', and we should all be big wussies that shouldn't drink hot coffee, cause it might spill on our laps.

I can't tell you how many times I got injured working in construction. . . Never once did I make a big deal out of it, or go to the doctor. I accepted that it could be dangerous work, and so there was no surprises.

You want to know why comp rates are high, insurance rates are high, and all the other stuff we have to carry to protect our rears? It isn't the guys working under the table, or without insurance, or for less than everyone else. . . It's the babies that cry to momma, and want a free lunch. "I got a sliver at work--I want 6 weeks off, paid, to heal. . . And a settlement for my mental anguish."

Or it's just dishonest wastes of skin, that want a free ride. . . So they fabricate or exaggerate an injury. It's a bunch of crap. 

Many times I've helped someone out, and they were worried about liability. You know what I told them? 'If I get hurt bad, drag me into the woods and let the critters have me." No lawsuit, no complaining that life isn't fair, or that I deserve free Medical Care, or that my safety was anyones responsibility but my own. 

If you haven't noticed, life can be dangerous. . . There's a 1:1 chance that you will die. People need to get over it, and Man Up!


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## lego1970 (Aug 21, 2009)

blueatlascedar said:


> With my situation, the OSHA inspector was just driving down the highway towards the town I live in. He saw our signs along the road stating "Caution Treework Ahead" and figured, why not pop in and do a spot inspection. My attitude towards him wasn't as good as it could of been, but like I posted earlier, I was doing a tedious pruning in a very wide tree with lots of limb walking and was pissed I had to come out of the tree before finishing the work up there. My attitude may've contributed to his snotty attitude or maybe that was his MO.




I don't blame you for getting pissed off. Honestly, I don't think I would of come down until I was finished with the job regardless of what he threatened or did. I would of probably lost it, if he couldn't wait and come back later. I owned a semi for 5 years and one trip from Kansas City to San Fransisco I had 4 level 1 inspections where they completely go thru your truck. On the 4th inspection outside of Reno I completely lost it, threw the keys outside the truck and told him just to keep the truck and throw me in jail if it made DOT happy. Luckily after things calmed down he understood my frustration of being inspected 4 times in one trip, and let me go.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 21, 2009)

I think Obama is going to personally inspect all tree crews!

In between paying all of our mortgages!


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## treemandan (Aug 21, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Go to this post on Crane Job
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047
> 
> ...





Yeah, I don't think I would make that cut with just one TIP. i mean I could, just wouldn't


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## pdqdl (Aug 21, 2009)

What else would you tie to?

I don't see too many guys running two lanyards on stem cuts. Sometimes it's just down to you, the tree trunk, and your lanyard.

Am I missing out on something? Do you guys usually rig down trunks on two lanyards?


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> What else would you tie to?
> 
> I don't see too many guys running two lanyards on stem cuts. Sometimes it's just down to you, the tree trunk, and your lanyard.
> 
> Am I missing out on something? Do you guys usually rig down trunks on two lanyards?



I do. I use one standard rap around the the second I criss cross on the connection side so it will act more like a choker if I was to fall free. In theory it should shorten your ride down and save some of the skin on your chest and face. On top of which you would have to accidentally cut two lanyards instead of one before you fall off and land on the rod iron fence below.


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## Bermie (Aug 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> What else would you tie to?
> 
> I don't see too many guys running two lanyards on stem cuts. Sometimes it's just down to you, the tree trunk, and your lanyard.
> 
> Am I missing out on something? Do you guys usually rig down trunks on two lanyards?



Yes
Ever heard of a second lanyard or your climb line???
I did a 100' pine yesterday, steel core on top, rope lanyard 2' below and climb line for a fast descent around a big stub. Sure it takes me a bit longer, but the job is done safe and sound. I work for myself, sole wage earner since my hubby had medical issues, safety matters to me and him!


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## treemandan (Aug 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> What else would you tie to?
> 
> I don't see too many guys running two lanyards on stem cuts. Sometimes it's just down to you, the tree trunk, and your lanyard.
> 
> Am I missing out on something? Do you guys usually rig down trunks on two lanyards?



Isa huh? Well I think your should have your climb line set in there somehow as well.


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## lego1970 (Aug 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> What else would you tie to?
> 
> I don't see too many guys running two lanyards on stem cuts. Sometimes it's just down to you, the tree trunk, and your lanyard.
> 
> Am I missing out on something? Do you guys usually rig down trunks on two lanyards?




I normally tie in twice because even a 10' backflip out of a tree could be fatal or hurt pretty bad, but for me a lot has to do with the pucker factor. 

1-3 pucker factor - maybe, maybe not.
4-6 pucker factor - yes, unless I'm having a bad day and don't give a crap.
7-10 pucker factor - yes and I might even strap my legs in so I don't shake the gaffs out of the tree. 

Seriously though, I use my climbing line and just slide it down near my knees in case I were to cut through the lanyard. I asked in another thread about steel core lanyards because the picture showed a fellow doing a pretty big trunk that you couldn't see around with just a lanyard.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> What else would you tie to?
> 
> I don't see too many guys running two lanyards on stem cuts. Sometimes it's just down to you, the tree trunk, and your lanyard.
> 
> Am I missing out on something? Do you guys usually rig down trunks on two lanyards?



On single stem conifers and the like I rarely use 2 lanyards. I should though. On wide spreading canopies when I finally return to my TIP and blast the last top out, I'll usually keep my climb line around the spar with my lanyard as I chunk down.


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## teamtree (Aug 21, 2009)

It is amazing how this thread has gotten so much response. I am not one to snitch on anyone. I usually use examples like the ones in the pictures as why you should do business with us. In the end guys like that find a way to get out of the business...hell, they don't even have a chipper. Why would you worry so much about them as to take pictures and send them to the authorities. My question to you is if you have been in business for say 4 years or more, why would you be concerned with this situation? Did they take a customer away from you? If so, why? If you have not been in business then go ahead and underbid them to get the work. Show the customer what a real professional can do. You will never stop guys like that, it is far to easy to start a tree service than any other business other than prostitution and lemonade stands. 

IMO....if you want to hire someone like that in the picture then you don't want to pay me what I am worth....therefore not a good customer for me.


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## treeseer (Aug 21, 2009)

"My question to you is if you have been in business for say 4 years or more, why would you be concerned with this situation? "

1. It makes all tree guys look bad 

2. insurance rates

"Did they take a customer away from you?"

How do we know they do not, or will not?

"If so, why?"

They cheat. 

"If you have not been in business then go ahead and underbid them to get the work."

Not a sustainable business decision--out-lowball the lowballers! Where does that lead, but reduced standards for the whole industry, and no money to make payroll?

"You will never stop guys like that." 

Not by accepting that kind of tree work in your town, true. IMO, notifying their boss and possibly town officials comes first; save OSHA and the other feds as a last resort.

Glad to hear that posters here understand 2 tie-ins with chainsaw use. Like most "shall"s in the Z, that only makes sense.


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## teamtree (Aug 21, 2009)

Well....I am not saying ignore it at all. I am not saying crying to OSHA is the answer as well.

Educate your customer.

Set an example.

I am not saying I am 100% by the book all the time on all aspects of my business but I try to be the best I can. I sell the importance of professionally run businesses. Uniforms, safety equipment and PPE, signs and cones, good equipment, insurance, training....etc. etc. are things that help our business grow. I am not going to fight for a customer who wants the lowest price. I tell them that up front. I tell them we will save them money by bing more efficient, better trained, better equipped. I will save them money because I will show up when I say I will and I will finish the job no matter what. I do not let jobs go unfinished becuase I want to go get a beer or I can buy a new starter for my chipper or my bucket truck broke down. I will finish the job on-time. 

I am not the police and I am not going to go shake my fist at guys that want to play "tree guy" for a few weeks. 

I sell myself not curse what others are doing. Then people will ask them why they don't do things like we do.


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## teamtree (Aug 21, 2009)

treeseer said:


> "Not a sustainable business decision--out-lowball the lowballers! Where does that lead, but reduced standards for the whole industry, and no money to make payroll?



I can tell you first hand I got some of my best customers by being the lowest bidder. I was new to the business and wanted to prove myself. To get the work, I worked cheap. They liked my work and kept me around. 

Now, we are pretty efficient at what we do and I see new guys put 2 to 3 times the hours on removals that we do. So....is 2 hours at $300 cheaper than 7 hours at $100? Or would you call it being efficient. So, I look at it this way...I make the new guys pay to come around and want to be cheap. I am efficient and have good guys and good equipment. For what we can do a removal for, it is not going to be easy beer money. And when it gets technical we make hay.

Beat the lowballers at their own game. And you have to play the game my friend.


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## treemandan (Aug 21, 2009)

teamtree said:


> I can tell you first hand I got some of my best customers by being the lowest bidder. I was new to the business and wanted to prove myself. To get the work, I worked cheap. They liked my work and kept me around.
> 
> Now, we are pretty efficient at what we do and I see new guys put 2 to 3 times the hours on removals that we do. So....is 2 hours at $300 cheaper than 7 hours at $100? Or would you call it being efficient. So, I look at it this way...I make the new guys pay to come around and want to be cheap. I am efficient and have good guys and good equipment. For what we can do a removal for, it is not going to be easy beer money. And when it gets technical we make hay.
> 
> Beat the lowballers at their own game. And you have to play the game my friend.



Good post my friend.


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## fishercat (Aug 21, 2009)

*i didn't climb down for the USDA in Woosta Mass last winter.*



lego1970 said:


> I don't blame you for getting pissed off. Honestly, I don't think I would of come down until I was finished with the job regardless of what he threatened or did. I would of probably lost it, if he couldn't wait and come back later. I owned a semi for 5 years and one trip from Kansas City to San Fransisco I had 4 level 1 inspections where they completely go thru your truck. On the 4th inspection outside of Reno I completely lost it, threw the keys outside the truck and told him just to keep the truck and throw me in jail if it made DOT happy. Luckily after things calmed down he understood my frustration of being inspected 4 times in one trip, and let me go.



i tried calling the idiots for three days.not my fault the only had one phone line.
he shows up on thursday at 3:45 PM telling me i have to be at a mandatory meeting at 5pm across town.he yelled all this to me while i was up in a hickory.

he asked me to come down when he got there.i told him if he wanted to talk to me he had to climb his lazy cheese eating ass up the tree.he didn't come up the tree and i didn't go to their silly meeting.i downloaded all the info i needed online monday night. 

don't let these punks push you around,they are just trying to relive their elementary school safety patrol days.it's all intimidation and i don't get intimidated.


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

The ideological argument is moot, because nowadays you are indeed a liability to your colleagues, coworkers, customers, operator, crew and family if you are working unsafe. A big strong work ethic doesn't say much when a person is on life support.

I appreciate the formatting to clarify points of emphasis including my own



Metals406 said:


> My Great-Grandfather would say we live in the dark days. He would chose to lose an arm, rather than have some schmuck take his picture, and turn him in to some bloated, corrupt Government controlled agency. In fact, that would have been grounds for a royal ass-whoopin' in the days when men were steel and ships were wood.
> 
> BTW, he lost a finger to a circular mill. . . No lawsuit, no whining, no claim that the saw manufacturer made a dangerous product. And we know that life never has 'complications', and we should all be big wussies that shouldn't drink hot coffee, cause it might spill on our laps.
> 
> ...


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2009)

senechal said:


> The ideological argument is moot, because nowadays you are indeed a liability to your colleagues, coworkers, customers, operator, crew and family if you are working unsafe. A big strong work ethic doesn't say much when a person is on life support.
> 
> I appreciate the formatting to clarify points of emphasis including my own



The differance is you already live in a socialist country, we are trying to fight from becoming one, its the principals our country was founded on, through blood sweat and tears. Canadians just kinda showed up one day and said... Hi we are Canadians and went on accepting whatever comes their way after that


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

hahahaha. Ignorance is bliss.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2009)

senechal said:


> hahahaha. Ignorance is bliss.



Thats why I am trying to enlighten you a little.


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

Thanks muffin


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## Greystoke (Aug 21, 2009)

Bearcreek said:


> :agree2: Well said. I'll be with you on that day.



:agree2:Count me in!


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## Metals406 (Aug 21, 2009)

senechal said:


> The ideological argument is moot, because nowadays you are indeed a liability to your colleagues, coworkers, customers, operator, crew and family if you are working unsafe. A big strong work ethic doesn't say much when a person is on life support.
> 
> I appreciate the formatting to clarify points of emphasis including my own



What's your point again?

Of course working like an idiot is a liability. . . Tough cookies. Get over it, move along, nothing to see here. If you don't want to work around a fool--then leave. By who's standards must everyone adhere to be considered "Safe"?? Who gave you a badge to regulate people?

Hell, we can't even get treemen to agree about knots and climbing technique on this site, let alone the country!! So by what measure do we condemn others? Do _you _get to decide, or maybe Politicians that have no experience doing physical labor? They do an awful good job armchair-quarterbacking with everything else. . . Oh wait--no they don't.

And it's the lack of (more fancy underlining for ya) work ethic that's the problem. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what those two young guys were doing in the OP's pictures. . . If you don't agree with the way they work--don't stick your nose in their business--and don't watch them.

Did they die doing the work? . . Perhaps they maimed a baby? No? That's right, nothing happened. Would you rather they sit on their butts and be wards of the state? Maybe sit at home and smoke some weed they bought by trading Food Stamps?

At least they were working! Perhaps the OP could have approached them, and enlightened them on proper PPE and cutting safety? . . Instead, he takes pictures of their "naughties", and turns it in to the Principle. What they were doing was _none _of his business.

I know it's hard for some people to let everyone else run their own lives--it's a control thing--I get it. It's like Obama asking people to turn their neighbors in. . . We don't want that Nanny-State crap here, so leave it up North eh?


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## Sciuropterus (Aug 21, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Thats why I am trying to enlighten you a little.



Stihl-O-Matic, I like your quote about deer hunting without an accordion, but you got the wrong guy saying it. It was spoken by Jed Babbin, he was an undersecretary of defense in 2003. 

Details here:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/babbin.asp


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## senechal (Aug 21, 2009)

I... I think it was about safety regulations. Somewhere in between the initial photos and the usual political remarks about Europe and Canada, I found a beer in the fridge and put on southpark. Mmmmm.



Metals406 said:


> What's your point again?


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## Tree Pig (Aug 21, 2009)

Sciuropterus said:


> Stihl-O-Matic, I like your quote about deer hunting without an accordion, but you got the wrong guy saying it. It was spoken by Jed Babbin, he was an undersecretary of defense in 2003.
> 
> Details here:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/quotes/babbin.asp




Thanks for the tip, I am not sure who said it first I do know Storman Norman is quoted on numerous websites for having said it and frankly no one really remembers or cares much about anything Babbin ever said. I would be willing to bet that since Babbin said it Norman has repeated at least once. So I guess I am quoting someone else hearing Norman repeat something he heard Babbin say. But thats way to much to put in my SIG


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## treeseer (Aug 22, 2009)

"we can't even get treemen to agree about knots and climbing technique on this site, let alone the country!! So by what measure do we condemn others? "

Uh, sir, what does climbing style have to do with safety? Focus. Topic.

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with what those two young guys were doing in the OP's pictures."

Nothing wrong? Are you familiar with the tree business at all?


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Thanks for the tip, I am not sure who said it first I do know Storman Norman is quoted on numerous websites for having said it and frankly no one really remembers or cares much about anything Babbin ever said. I would be willing to bet that since Babbin said it Norman has repeated at least once. So I guess I am quoting someone else hearing Norman repeat something he heard Babbin say. But thats way to much to put in my SIG



Just to stir up a little more trouble (sorry I cannot help myself, and this thread is on quite a roll). Based on the snopes reference you can be damn sure who said it first. But, so are you saying that presented with the facts of who spoke those words you are going to continue to misrepresent them and deny credit to the true author of those words? I just wanna be clear here. oke:


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> Just to stir up a little more trouble (sorry I cannot help myself, and this thread is on quite a roll). Based on the snopes reference you can be damn sure who said it first. But, so are you saying that presented with the facts of who spoke those words you are going to continue to misrepresent them and deny credit to the true author of those words? I just wanna be clear here. oke:



I think what I am saying is thanks for your input but it really has little to do with this thread and I will take under consideration and maybe eventually get to the bottom of it.

EDIT Here just for you I fixed my sig... Happy?


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> Based on the snopes reference you can be damn sure who said it first. . oke:



But just to Clearify one thing just because someone wrote in an HTML file and posted it on a webserver doesnt make it fact. 

If you want I can make you the president of Kyrgyzstan and attribute it to you with all kinda of other cool stories in about 30 mins have it up and running on a website for you.


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## Metals406 (Aug 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> "we can't even get treemen to agree about knots and climbing technique on this site, let alone the country!! So by what measure do we condemn others? "
> 
> Uh, sir, what does climbing style have to do with safety? Focus. Topic.
> 
> ...



What does climbing style have to do with safety? . . You tell me. Look at all the threads where one guy says you must double tie in, then another says it's a must to have a steel-core flipline, then another says one bend is unsafe but another will be safer, then one says he climbs and cuts in shorts, and another says that's unacceptable. 

Plenty of focus and on-topic here.

And there wasn't anything wrong with what those guys were doing. . . Your way isn't the only way--there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. Who was injured in those pics? What property damage was done? What heinous crime was committed? Those two made enough dough to make it through another day in this jacked-up economy, and probably brought dinner home for the family.


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## newsawtooth (Aug 22, 2009)

*Safety*

Whether you agree with what BCMA did or not, is beside the point. As industries evolve, the culture of safety evolves at great cost, both physically to employees and economically. OSHA rules for logging operations which arboriculture falls under, were developed in response to fatalities or patterns of serious injury. Sure, those two gentlemen may be earning a living, but at what cost? To disregard established safe working practices is short sighted. Their $9 or $10 an hour will do little to offset the average cost of a saw injury. Then where are they? To compare what they are doing to conditions 100 years ago whilst claiming that your forefathers would prefer losing a limb is irrelevant and disingenuous. I cannot pretend to understand what is in another man's heart, but I suspect they would prefer to be intact in order to provide for their families. 

OSHA has had some trouble with the Tree Industry. They tried to lump us in with logging operations, but it became clear that we don't quite fit there. As of right now, they are not issuing citations for certain violations. "...Until these discussions have produced further resolution of the compliance issues affecting arborists, citations for violations of 1910.266 shall not be issued to employers in SIC 0783 who are not engaged in logging operations". From http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25041.

If you are worried about citations, familiarize yourself with their laws and who is capable of issuing citations. Don't act like a victim of government rules that are for the protection of employees. I don't really understand how someone can defend improperly training employees and not providing them with the appropriate PPE to keep them productive. The alternative is simply a poor business decision. 

Brent Jenkins 
Denver, CO


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## senechal (Aug 22, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Plenty of focus and on-topic here.




Not exactly. Hyperbole is certainly your forté though.


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## Metals406 (Aug 22, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> Whether you agree with what BCMA did or not, is beside the point. As industries evolve, the culture of safety evolves at great cost, both physically to employees and economically. OSHA rules for logging operations which arboriculture falls under, were developed in response to fatalities or patterns of serious injury. Sure, those two gentlemen may be earning a living, but at what cost? To disregard established safe working practices is short sighted. Their $9 or $10 an hour will do little to offset the average cost of a saw injury. Then where are they? To compare what they are doing to conditions 100 years ago whilst claiming that your forefathers would prefer losing a limb is irrelevant and disingenuous. I cannot pretend to understand what is in another man's heart, but I suspect they would prefer to be intact in order to provide for their families.
> 
> OSHA has had some trouble with the Tree Industry. They tried to lump us in with logging operations, but it became clear that we don't quite fit there. As of right now, they are not issuing citations for certain violations. "...Until these discussions have produced further resolution of the compliance issues affecting arborists, citations for violations of 1910.266 shall not be issued to employers in SIC 0783 who are not engaged in logging operations". From http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25041.
> 
> ...





senechal said:


> Not exactly. Hyperbole is certainly your forté though.



You guys are right. . . I'm totally going to run around tomorrow, and turn a bunch of people in to the proper authorities. . . It'll be a hoot!


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 22, 2009)

*My OSH visit*

Yesterday I had my second visit in a month from our version of OSHA. 

Amongst other things this is what he checked. (gear)

Saftey features on chainsaws (brake, throttle lock, off switch, brake, mufflers, chain catcher peg, av in good cond and chainsaw mits fitted to all ground saws.
Helmets were certified for use and were no older than 3 years if a plastic hard hat and 5 years if a petzl type unit. Muffs at least class 4 and in good cond.
Chainsaw pants and chaps worn, steel cap boots and safety glasses
Harnesses of standard with date of make and no older than 10 years.
Ropes and prussics in good cond
3 way locking get biners used in all lifeline situations. others are only for gear and rigging.
First aid kits available and well stocked

Background stuff they checked that I remember

First aid qualifications
At least 2 people on site able to do ariel rescue
Anyone operating saws qualified and using them properly.

Aside from one saw not having a mitt and one of my guys cutting without his thumb wrapped around the handle and cutting above his shoulder, he was happy with our operation but I have to get more of our safety and training stuff down in writing.

Im happy because I know I have proof that I am putting in place the equipment and systems to look after those who work for me. They know I value there safety and they act accordingly. Im not making the job safe, but I am making it safer. Another company that thought it was "safe" got a close down with 27 violations. Hey doesnt everyone think they are a good driver?

I think if your a lone wolf tree worker then your free to do what you like safety wise. BUT the minute you employ someone YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THERE SAFETY IF THEY ARE DOING YOUR BIDDING. You ask them to do inherently dangerous tasks, you train them, gude them and equip them. 

If they get badly hurt and it can be attributed to your lack of equipment, training or guidance. You deserve to be closed down and loose your right to employ guys. 

You cant stop guys from being idiots but if you have seen the same $10 an hour college kid clearing the chuck and duck using his foot a couple times and done nothing about it, if he goes through the third time, its not his fault he didnt know better, its yours for not correcting and training him. YOUR the one that knows better. If he does it after you have warned him, well maybe darwin has a prize he deserves.
Just like the guys in the pic, they probably dont know better because there miserable, ignorant hack of a boss hasnt done HIS job to train and supply OR hes unfit for a leadership/employer role in our professional industry.

Part of the problem is that guys often dont know that they are doing wrong or feel no motivation to do the right thing. This is why OSHA is so important. They set guidelines for the industry based on considered study and then police them.

Here the DOL (department of labour/OSH) has run meetings with arborists, then notified site visits, and then they start policing. 

If you do treework for yourself without the right gear or background, then your just a hack, if you have other guys helping you, your being an irresponsible gutless hack who wont man up to your responsiblities to your men and their families.

Providing the right gear and training does cost, but in the end its a golden investment.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> Whether you agree with what BCMA did or not, is beside the point. As industries evolve, the culture of safety evolves at great cost, both physically to employees and economically. OSHA rules for logging operations which arboriculture falls under, were developed in response to fatalities or patterns of serious injury. Sure, those two gentlemen may be earning a living, but at what cost? To disregard established safe working practices is short sighted. Their $9 or $10 an hour will do little to offset the average cost of a saw injury. Then where are they? To compare what they are doing to conditions 100 years ago whilst claiming that your forefathers would prefer losing a limb is irrelevant and disingenuous. I cannot pretend to understand what is in another man's heart, but I suspect they would prefer to be intact in order to provide for their families.
> 
> OSHA has had some trouble with the Tree Industry. They tried to lump us in with logging operations, but it became clear that we don't quite fit there. As of right now, they are not issuing citations for certain violations. "...Until these discussions have produced further resolution of the compliance issues affecting arborists, citations for violations of 1910.266 shall not be issued to employers in SIC 0783 who are not engaged in logging operations". From http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25041.
> 
> ...



Your absolutely wrong, this thread isnt about if them guys are wrong with their work practices. Its about weather BCMA was a little tattle tail punk to hide across a parking lot and take picture of them two idiots and turn them in. Then post some pics of his super crew doing stuff that in fact is far more dangerous then what they were doing. 

This may not of been the intent of BCMA when he started this POS thread but thats what it has evolved to, so next time try and follow along before you toss your two cents in. From reading your reply your very knowledgeable in the area and most likely formed your opinion before you really read this thread... If you read any of it at all. In my honest opinion BCMA is MORALLY wrong in his actions in the way he handle the situation. If he was so concerned about their practices stop and take 5 minutes to educate these lads, A. about safety and B. about the potential fines for the way they are working. In many countries in the world Government Informants would be killed if caught, so why would someone post that here and think its socially acceptable.


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## ozzy42 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Go to this post on Crane Job
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047
> 
> ...




Repped you for pointing out the total hypocricy of OP






Give washington another 20 yrs,and they will have mandated regulations on how to make a PBJ sandwich.







BTW,did anybody send the pics from the crane job link to OSHA?


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 22, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> Repped you for pointing out the total hypocricy of OP
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I'm sending text and pics of this entire thread to " king obama '!


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> EDIT Here just for you I fixed my sig... Happy?



Yep, happy as a clam. 

Snopes is a darn good source for checking on things. Even in the very rare cases they get something wrong they are very quick to change it once they verify it. I saw the same quote attributed to Stormin Normin in another forum and it caused at big rukus over there. No sense in seeing the same thing over here.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> In many countries in the world Government Informants would be killed if caught, so why would someone post that here and think its socially acceptable.



But herein lies the problem. In places like China, India, Bangladesh they ignore safety and environmental standards and they pay their workers next to nothing. Those places make stuff that takes our jobs away from us because we are safe and we don't just dump used chemicals into our drinking water. Yet, when faced with competition from these countries, every red blooded American beyotches up a storm that it is unfair. Because nobody does any inspections and enforcement in those countries they are allowed to continue and compete unfairly against us. They work at a lower level that we cannot work and compete at.

I know how much good safety equipment costs and the disposal costs of wood debris can be very expensive these days. Think how much easier everyone could compete if they use used bailing rope for climbing, and at the end of the job they just drove to the outskirts of town and dumped the wood on the side of the road. That is the kind of stuff that happens in places where there are no laws or they are not enforced.

It has been shown hundreds of thousands of times in the business world that when people keep lowering prices to compete they all get to a point where the work or the product is a commodity and nobody makes any money. The granite countertop business where I live is like that now. 10-15 years ago it was hard to find granite fabricators and to get quotes from them and their prices varied quite a bit. I got 5 quotes for my contertops three years ago. All of them were delivered to me within 4 hours of faxing the drawings in to the fabricators. From lowest to highest price there was only a difference of $500 on a ~$5k job. That is a commodity and it all happened in <10 years because everybody with a wet saw and a grinder started a granite business. 

If we let one group sink to a lower level they will drag everyone down with them. Just a thought. If we don't police ourselves then that allows more unscrupulous people to slip through the cracks and get away with what they do longer and thus justify it.

One final point, how would folks react if those workers were of a group that was obviously not US Citizens and they were here illegally? Would that change their opinion? Something to ruminate on.


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 22, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> But herein lies the problem. In places like China, India, Bangladesh they ignore safety and environmental standards and they pay their workers next to nothing. Those places make stuff that takes our jobs away from us because we are safe and we don't just dump used chemicals into our drinking water. Yet, when faced with competition from these countries, every red blooded American beyotches up a storm that it is unfair. Because nobody does any inspections and enforcement in those countries they are allowed to continue and compete unfairly against us. They work at a lower level that we cannot work and compete at.



Actually I don't complain about the quality at all, I just don't buy it. I All my tools, my truck, my furniture, etc, are of quality American and European craftmanship. I make the conscious effort not to buy garbage from China or India or wherever. Of course, I pay for this quality as well. Same thing with the clients my company serves. They pay top price for our quality work and we deliver. I can assure you that Joe Pickup truck will never work on those properties. My company has neither the time nor the need to worry about clients who want a lowball price. Thus, we have neither the time nor the need to be creeps and take pictures of lowball workers.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

BRCCArborist said:


> I make the conscious effort not to buy garbage from China or India or wherever. Of course, I pay for this quality as well.



But, you are becomming the minority. Walmart has thrived by selling stuff made by ever cheaper suppliers. They started out selling Am made stuff but when US companies could no longer give Wally World the prices they wanted they went to China and other low ball countries to get what they wanted. Now most of the stuff Wally sells is made in China. The few Am suppliers left that sell to Walmart loathe them for their constant pressure on price. It can really suck to be a Walmart supplier, but if you want to sell a lot of a product, you have to at least try to keep up with their game. Big respectable US companies have gone bankrupt due to Walmart and their policies. In a race to the bottom nobody wins.


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 22, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> But, you are becomming the minority. Walmart has thrived by selling stuff made by ever cheaper suppliers. They started out selling Am made stuff but when US companies could no longer give Wally World the prices they wanted they went to China and other low ball countries to get what they wanted. Now most of the stuff Wally sells is made in China. The few Am suppliers left that sell to Walmart loathe them for their constant pressure on price. It can really suck to be a Walmart supplier, but if you want to sell a lot of a product, you have to at least try to keep up with their game. Big respectable US companies have gone bankrupt due to Walmart and their policies. In a race to the bottom nobody wins.



Being a Wal-Mart supplier may be a race to the bottom, High end arborist work is not. Like I said , I have no time to mess with lowball clients or lowballers in general, I will continue to serve the minority that wants quality work and is willing to pay for it. As long as my coworkers and myself are playing by the rules and being safe, I really don't care what others are doing. I'm and arborist, not a private investigator.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> BTW,did anybody send the pics from the crane job link to OSHA?



No I would never do such I thing, my parents raised me to be a MAN, and if I see something wrong, to confront the person doing it and attempt to change it. A lesson a few of the HALL MONITORS around here never got. And to think I use to stick up for these guys on the playground


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## treeseer (Aug 22, 2009)

"And there wasn't anything wrong with what those guys were doing. . . Your way isn't the only way--there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. Who was injured in those pics? What property damage was done? What heinous crime was committed? Those two made enough dough to make it through another day in this jacked-up economy, and probably brought dinner home for the family."

There we go; shrug and blame unsafe substandard work on "the economy", the loser's excuse. As Flip Wilson said, "the devil made me do it". Or Outback steakhouse, "No Rules, just Eat"? So the standard is, full belly = Success. This lowers the bar to the floor, doesn't it?



Curlycherry1 said:


> In a race to the bottom nobody wins.



Exactly.


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## Bermie (Aug 22, 2009)

Safety, standards, work ethic......

Maybe BCMA should have gone to them or their boss first...whatever you think or don't of what he did....

Those guys in the pictures are contributing to higher insurance premiums, the appearance of dumbing down our profession, shortening their expected lifespan (chance of a bad accident) and limiting their earning potential (by not being taught or learning how to do this properly and therefore able to command a higher price)

I have OFTEN stopped on the side of the road to talk to Government crews working badly, safety and technique...the guys just say 'that's what we've been told to do' 'just got to get the job done'...I have taken pictures...sent polite but firm emails to the relevant superintendants...what happens...a big fat NOTHING! Next stop will be the newspaper and the talk show...I've given you the chance to solve this in house, offered my services, even been engaged to train some of them, but they STILL ignore best practice.

Time for the gloves to come off, because they are publicly putting a bad face on what I have chosen to have as a career and invested time and money to get right!!


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## Rftreeman (Aug 22, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.
> 
> If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.


can I get a amen brotha...

and insurance FRAUD contributes to higher rates more than injuries do..........


I hope those guys are members here and hunt you down and kick your ass.....


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

My garage doors were made by a small 6-8 man cabinet shop that is run by an American yet he only employs Mexicans or other folks from South of the border. Why? Because he said they work hard but more importantly they follow EVERY single safety requirement to the letter. He said he was inspected several times and never once did he have any issues at all. They want to make sure they are there for their familes and be able to support their families, and accidents prevent them from giving that support. He said they would come to him with suggestions to make things safer and better and they would get cranky if he did not follow through.

He said all the Americans he had through the years only cared about getting to Friday and their beer. As an American empolyeer he said it was sad, but he was done with hiring American workers. 

We had a skidder operator that worked with us a lot and he never wore a hardhat. As a driver he said there was no need because he was off the skidder maybe 5-10 times per day. That all ended one day when he was bent over to pick up a dropped tool in the woods and a 4" diameter maple tree fell over and hit him on the back of the head. We kept him alive until he could reach the hospital where he died in surgery. 30+ Years that guy worked in the woods with no problems. He left a widow and 7 kids under the age of 14.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2009)

Curlycherry1 said:


> My garage doors were made by a small 6-8 man cabinet shop that is run by an American yet he only employs Mexicans or other folks from South of the border. Why? Because he said they work hard but more importantly they follow EVERY single safety requirement to the letter. He said he was inspected several times and never once did he have any issues at all. They want to make sure they are there for their familes and be able to support their families, and accidents prevent them from giving that support. He said they would come to him with suggestions to make things safer and better and they would get cranky if he did not follow through.
> 
> He said all the Americans he had through the years only cared about getting to Friday and their beer. As an American empolyeer he said it was sad, but he was done with hiring American workers.



Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker. Does he have the right to do so? Yes as long as they are legal workers but I would bet thats doubtful. If you purchase anything from him your part of the problem.

If as a Employer or supervisor you can not get your employees or subordinates to do their job and were the PPE you require then maybe your the problem. 

Your other story is a said one but his supervisor takes part of the blame.


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker. Does he have the right to do so? Yes as long as they are legal workers but I would bet thats doubtful. If you purchase anything from him your part of the problem.
> 
> If as a Employer or supervisor you can not get your employees or subordinates to do their job and were the PPE you require then maybe your the problem.
> 
> Your other story is a said one but his supervisor takes part of the blame.



It also sounds like pretty blatant discrimination on the cabinet shop owners part as well.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker.



He told me he pays them the exact same wages he would pay anyone. Where they are from does not matter the pay according to him. I have no reason to doubt him because he had a top of the line shop with all the best equipment and it was all in primo shape. You could eat off the floors it was so clean. There were none of the typical junk beater cars in the parking lot either, so his claim to be paying well seemed to be supported, unless his workers were not parking in his parking lot.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Your other story is a said one but his supervisor takes part of the blame.



He was an independent contractor hired by the land clearning outfit. The outfit paid $3/tree to us to drop and top the trees, and the skidder got some amount per tree to yank them to a landing. The land clearing outfit was run by a shady guy that basically said "I write a check and how the work gets done is up to the people doing it, not me." 

That is probably the same attitude the folks that hired those kids in the beginning of this thread would say.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 22, 2009)

BRCCArborist said:


> It also sounds like pretty blatant discrimination on the cabinet shop owners part as well.



Being a woodworker I had gone to his shop to see some samples in his showroom and being a woodworker I could not prevent myself from asking for a tour of the shop to see how the doors were made. I was very interested in making sure the connections were well made and that proper adhesives were being used. Upon seeing all the workers I made comment and he then told me his reasoning. He said flat out if he could find folks willing to work like those guys did he would hire them. They were all legal, he said that was mandatory. He said he had just let go an American just a few weeks before because on a Friday at lunch the guy had stopped at a bar and had a beer. That was his 3rd time at doing that so the boss said he had to go.

The shop owner was almost apologetic about his workers, but as he said, I turn them loose and there is ZERO babysitting on my part, none.


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## Metals406 (Aug 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> "And there wasn't anything wrong with what those guys were doing. . . Your way isn't the only way--there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. Who was injured in those pics? What property damage was done? What heinous crime was committed? Those two made enough dough to make it through another day in this jacked-up economy, and probably brought dinner home for the family."
> 
> There we go; shrug and blame unsafe substandard work on "the economy", the loser's excuse. As Flip Wilson said, "the devil made me do it". Or Outback steakhouse, "No Rules, just Eat"? So the standard is, full belly = Success. This lowers the bar to the floor, doesn't it?



I wasn't blaming the economy for the way those two were working. . . Fail on your part, for not being able to correctly read a paragraph.

I asked What property damage was done?  Who was injured? And what heinous crime was committed? But of course, you ignore the question, and read into it what you want.

Besides making up a bunch of "what if's", you can't tell me what they did wrong, because they didn't do anything wrong. You want to hold them to your standards, like it's the only way things are done. So how were they unsafe again? You can't tell me if those two have _ever _had an injury or accident. They could have a squeaky clean working-safety record.

They seemed to have safely completed the work. . . Hence no property damage, no injuries, and no crime. But instead, you've been brainwashed to think it's your Right to control the way they work. You think you have a safety badge, and you need to punish others for things they haven't even done yet. They "might" have an accident, they "might" have an injury. 

And you also assume they "Low Balled" the work. . . How do you know they weren't charging 25-30 bucks an hour? That's a damn good wage. Were they uninsured? You don't know, and the OP doesn't know.

I'll let you get back to your binoculars, so you can make sure your neighbors are being "safe".


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## ozzy42 (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> No I would never do such I thing, my parents raised me to be a MAN, and if I see something wrong, to confront the person doing it and attempt to change it. A lesson a few of the HALL MONITORS around here never got. And to think I use to stick up for these guys on the playground



Nor would I.
I was just pilling on the sarcasm,and pointing out the irony of the OP.


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## ozzy42 (Aug 22, 2009)

There are different levels of expertise and proffessionalism in just about everything we do.

Should the auto repair shop down the street report me when I change my oil in the driveway.After all ,they have to have contaiment pits for all of their waste,and keep a paper trail of all such fluids?


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## Metals406 (Aug 22, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> There are different levels of expertise and proffessionalism in just about everything we do.
> 
> Should the auto repair shop down the street report me when I change my oil in the driveway.After all ,they have to have contaiment pits for all of their waste,and keep a paper trail of all such fluids?



I'm totally turning you in for that Ozzy.


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## pdqdl (Aug 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Thats absolute bull####. He has MEXICANS working for him because they will do work for $8-10 and hour that would cost him $20 for an American worker. ...



That isn't necessarily true. I know a number of landscapers that pay their help better than the "anglos" because they want to keep them happy. not because they can get them to work cheaper.

Some employers are convinced that the work ethic that comes from growing up in a 3rd world country is exactly what fills their job description best.

I don't hire any illegals because the difficulties are too great, and because I really don't want to. On the other hand, I occasionally go down to the Guadalupe community center and hire some day help for cash when we have a big job that I need help for. I could go to the temp labor service, but they only give me useless drunks that won't work.

I like the illegals and their work ethic. I don't like the fact that they are here sucking our out social resources without contributing, I resent any other US citizen that does the same. 

We can thank our politicians for most of that problem, and our society for voting them in.


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 22, 2009)

I just don't understand why people waste their time doing this silly stuff. Being a lurker taking pictures of a couple lawn jockies being goofs? If you are really concerned about their welfare, tell THEM what they are doing wrong, hell, offer them groundperson positions and train them yourself. But don't be a total rat about it and just automatically turn them into OSHA. OSHA won't even deal with this, in case you haven't noticed, they only approach companies when it is convenient for them to do so, i.e. when they are driving around on the taxpayer's dime and spot them. It was time better spent elsewhere.

My company does safety trainings and invites several other tree companies in the area to join, we have had up to 5 companies in the past with us and will accept anyone that wants to learn. I would rather teach people and learn something new myself than just snapping pictures of infractions (Including no double tie in there Mr. HighHorse ) I just think you could have handled the situation a whole lot better, that's if safety is truely your agenda.


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## newsawtooth (Aug 22, 2009)

*Opening a dialogue*



Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Your absolutely wrong, this thread isnt about if them guys are wrong with their work practices. Its about weather BCMA was a little tattle tail punk to hide across a parking lot and take picture of them two idiots and turn them in. Then post some pics of his super crew doing stuff that in fact is far more dangerous then what they were doing.
> 
> This may not of been the intent of BCMA when he started this POS thread but thats what it has evolved to, so next time try and follow along before you toss your two cents in. From reading your reply your very knowledgeable in the area and most likely formed your opinion before you really read this thread... If you read any of it at all. In my honest opinion BCMA is MORALLY wrong in his actions in the way he handle the situation. If he was so concerned about their practices stop and take 5 minutes to educate these lads, A. about safety and B. about the potential fines for the way they are working. In many countries in the world Government Informants would be killed if caught, so why would someone post that here and think its socially acceptable.



I read the the thread and my opinion changed several times. Further more, I do not claim more than a cursory understanding of OSHA regulations. What it boils down to is how improperly trained and equipped tree workers effect those that take the job and risks seriously. You want personal accountability? Act like adults and equip and train your employees properly, follow ANSI standards and review safe work practices. You really think that you can just drag an injured employee to the woods if they are not properly documented, trained, or equipped? If you truly believe this, then your arrogance is surpassed only by your ignorance. This job is worth neither fatalities or injuries. I don't pretend that all risks can be eliminated completely, but they can be mitigated. You want to be treated and paid like a professional? Then act like one. Because damn sure if you don't get involved and become proactive, the government will do it for you, and you likely won't like what they come up with.

I cannot even respond to the end of your post. How is this relevant?


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## ozzy42 (Aug 22, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> I'm totally turning you in for that Ozzy.



I don't actually do that anymore,,,my boy is old enough to do it .








Oh crap,,now I'm gonna have child labor issues to deal with:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Metals406 (Aug 22, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I don't actually do that anymore,,,my boy is old enough to do it .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not to mention me turning you in to the EPA. . . Oh, and since you don't use an approved lift, pit, or other device--you're getting turned in for "unsafe work practices" as well.

The only thing left for you to do is club a baby seal! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ozzy42 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'll have to settle for a baby manatee


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## treevet (Aug 22, 2009)

I just wandered thru this thread and wondered if Mr. Perfect also reports unsecured roofers, unhelmeted motorcyclests and dogs not crossing at an intersection with the appropriate light indicated. He is aware of violations in these issues as well.

I have played racquetball for 35 years. I play at the top level in our major city still at age 60. I could do quite well on an international/national level in my age group although do not have time to chase tournaments. 

In the last 10 years it has become mandatory to wear eye protection in tournaments so I wear them. The ball can travel over 150 mph and in the pros over 200 mph. But at the top levels players are very adept at where the ball is going to be hit to while watching an opponent. 

I choose to not wear eye protection in my top level club leagues. Never have put a pair on in 35 years of 2 leagues plus per week all year long. Playing with fogged up glasses is like having sex with a rubber to me (do you see tennis players wearing them?). Never been hit in the eyes either. The club owners knows, being a personal friend of mine that I will only hold myself responsible if any accident occurs. It has always been this way.

Few weeks ago while playing, an older (like me) lower level player comes up to our group after matches and looks at me and asks me pointedly "why don't you wear safety glasses?"

My reply was "Why are you so concerned about my eyes. I have a huge pimple on my a$$, are you concerned about that as well?" Didn't get a reply but I got my point across I think.


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## fishercat (Aug 22, 2009)

*what you don't realize is.............*



Curlycherry1 said:


> But herein lies the problem. In places like China, India, Bangladesh they ignore safety and environmental standards and they pay their workers next to nothing. Those places make stuff that takes our jobs away from us because we are safe and we don't just dump used chemicals into our drinking water. Yet, when faced with competition from these countries, every red blooded American beyotches up a storm that it is unfair. Because nobody does any inspections and enforcement in those countries they are allowed to continue and compete unfairly against us. They work at a lower level that we cannot work and compete at.
> 
> I know how much good safety equipment costs and the disposal costs of wood debris can be very expensive these days. Think how much easier everyone could compete if they use used bailing rope for climbing, and at the end of the job they just drove to the outskirts of town and dumped the wood on the side of the road. That is the kind of stuff that happens in places where there are no laws or they are not enforced.
> 
> ...



Stihl-O-Matic and i live in the land of laws and rules.this is Connecticut,there is a law about everything.down to damn near how many breaths you take in an hour.if there isn't a law yet,wait a day or two.

has this stopped illegal activity? not at all.i actually think it has made it worse because it is that much more difficult and EXPENSIVE to do things on the up and up.i see more shady crap here than i did when i lived in Knoxville TN and there is very little regulation and much cheaper to operate down there.


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## fishercat (Aug 22, 2009)

*my insurance premiums have been the same for years.*



Bermie said:


> Safety, standards, work ethic......
> 
> Maybe BCMA should have gone to them or their boss first...whatever you think or don't of what he did....
> 
> ...



has actually gone down a little.i actually agree with Nails.fraud is the biggest enemy of insurance premiums.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 22, 2009)

This thread really does show the sad state of affairs our industry and country is in. I am not one for government regs, but the folks working unsafely according to industry standards that were developed by the industry 'meaning those in the business' put a sad picture on our business. They probably got the job because they were the lowest bidder, great free enterprise at work. They were probably the lowest bidder because they did not have the expense of all the safety gear and training that goes with it. No idea if they were insured, probably subbing for the bigger contractor that originally bid the job. Fortunatly they or none around them were hurt, but what if they were? What if someone's family member was hurt because these guys did not set up a proper work zone? Would they still be OK and be defended as just a couple of hard workers trying to make a living? Or would the story change? The folks that pay insurance, buy the safety gear, abide by the industry standards unfortunatly are the ones that end up paying the fines. The uninsured hacks that have nothing walk away free because they have nothing. Can't say I agree with calling the agency to make the report, I have been tempted many times myself, but I don't live in a glass house like most. I do agree it is frustrating to see this type of activity going on and being powerless to fix it.


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## tomtrees58 (Aug 22, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Let me not mince words with you. The last thing working people need is a nosey jerk like you sending pictures of them to the government. What facts do you have? How do you know they aren't volunteers working for free? Either way, you are truly a disgrace to the working man and the good in society.
> 
> If you want to enforce safety go work for OSHA, otherwise mind your own affairs jerkoff. I tell you what, the day is gonna come when men like me stand against men like you with force and vengence.



:agree2:tom trees


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## treevet (Aug 23, 2009)

These guys in the picts. and likely most of the same ilk often escape unscathed where as on the other hand the tree most of the time does not. Not much mention about not following industry standards (ANSI) on knowledgeable treatments.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 23, 2009)

treevet said:


> I just wandered thru this thread and wondered if Mr. Perfect also reports unsecured roofers, unhelmeted motorcyclests and dogs not crossing at an intersection with the appropriate light indicated. He is aware of violations in these issues as well.
> 
> I have played racquetball for 35 years. I play at the top level in our major city still at age 60. I could do quite well on an international/national level in my age group although do not have time to chase tournaments.
> 
> ...



Sounds just the kind of logic the logger I described above used days before a 4" maple tree blew over in the wind and killed him. He said 30+ years in the business made him uniquely aware of what was around him and because he had so much seat time in his skidder that he did not need a hardhat. At lunch the day he died he said that he had never been so much as taped on the head by anything in the woods. By 4:00 pm he was dead.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 23, 2009)

We had a storm in Memphis 2 months ago!

EVERYBODY WAS AN INSTANT TREE CUTTER! The dump was full of people with a small trailer and pickup , most were stuck in the mud or broken down! It was actually quite funny!

Whats not funny was a fireman , OFF DUTY , trying to cut a tree , it fell on him , now he's dead with two little girls and a wife. He asked my friend , owner of a large well equipped , SAFE , tree company two hours before the tree fell on him for some advice!

And out of town people are the WORST!


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## outofmytree (Aug 23, 2009)

I get the bit about calling OSHA being bad form. It is common in Australia for "dobbers" to be considered worse than criminals. That isn't my own opinion but, like I said, it is common here. What I don't get is how the appalling lack of safe work practices shown in the OP is not uniformly condemned. 

For those who have posted here that they see nothing wrong with the standards shown in those photographs I sincerely hope you never have the misfortune to work with someone like that. Or help them hold their leg together whilst you pray for the ambulance to get there faster. Or have to call their wife, a friend of ten years, and tell her she has to ID her husbands body because you are not next of kin. Yes, not wearing chaps when you climb was and still is potentially fatal. Hit an artery up there and all the skill and luck in the world will not save you.

I have posted a few photgraphs with OHS breaches in them and will take my lumps if they call me. I have no fear of being inspected. My only fear on the job is that someone will get hurt if I don't take responsibility for *EVERYONES *safety on my site.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 23, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> I get the bit about calling OSHA being bad form. It is common in Australia for "dobbers" to be considered worse than criminals. That isn't my own opinion but, like I said, it is common here. What I don't get is how the appalling lack of safe work practices shown in the OP is not uniformly condemned.
> 
> For those who have posted here that they see nothing wrong with the standards shown in those photographs I sincerely hope you never have the misfortune to work with someone like that. Or help them hold their leg together whilst you pray for the ambulance to get there faster. Or have to call their wife, a friend of ten years, and tell her she has to ID her husbands body because you are not next of kin. Yes, not wearing chaps when you climb was and still is potentially fatal. Hit an artery up there and all the skill and luck in the world will not save you.
> 
> I have posted a few photgraphs with OHS breaches in them and will take my lumps if they call me. I have no fear of being inspected. My only fear on the job is that someone will get hurt if I don't take responsibility for *EVERYONES *safety on my site.



Very well said. Folks that see nothing wrong with this style of work are the problem in the tree care industry. It is the reason insurance rates will continue to rise, treework/workers will never be respected, and prices will be all over the map. Saying that they are OK to work like that because they did not get hurt is a ridiculus statement in my opinion. People HAVE been hurt working like that and will continue to be hurt. Granted PPE will not prevent all injuries, but the industry has evolved to recognize the hazards and require safety equipment for the job. Not that many years ago football players did not have to wear helmets, can you imagine the carnage seeing a game played today without one? Although some would probably enjoy it more.


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## treemandan (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't see why everybody got mad at the idea of calling ohsa on the lanscrapers, Hey THEY"RE LANDSCRAPERS!, you are supposed to aim for em. ( at least that is what I tthought). I drive by one there trucks parked on the road I usually holler something derogetory ( mostly about the lack of road cones while they got there truck parked in the middle of the road or somewhere just as stupid. They are all idiots.


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## treevet (Aug 23, 2009)

If he lived thru that little 4" tree on the head bcs of a hh he prob woulda been flattened by a garbage truck on the way home.

Sometimes it is just your day. Everyone has that day.

(in reference to Curleycherries post above)

And, yes, there is something/s uniquely different about someone with decades of experience as opposed to a green man. 

But the legislation (ANSI) has to direct their standards to the dumbest moron out there and everyone has to be governed by those laws. It is the way it is and always will be.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 23, 2009)

treemandan said:


> i don't see why everybody got mad at the idea of calling ohsa on the lanscrapers, hey they"re landscrapers!, you are supposed to aim for em.they are all idiots.



very valid point


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## treemandan (Aug 23, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> very valid point



See? Now what is that number? 

Once I saw a road crew( private contractors) and they had some kid running a cut off saw through a lane on a bridge, no cones, no flags, no eye, ear or head protection. I actaulyy stopped and got out for that one. I came round the bend and saw this head in the middle of the road, big ass chop saw screaming and through big time dust, everybody standing round watching the kid cutting.
Once a township raod crew flew by my roadside work site, took out three cones, I grabbed a 20 and jumped in my truck and too off after them.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 23, 2009)

treemandan said:


> See? Now what is that number?
> 
> Once I saw a road crew( private contractors) and they had some kid running a cut off saw through a lane on a bridge, no cones, no flags, no eye, ear or head protection. I actaulyy stopped and got out for that one.



See I respect the hell out of that. You saw a problem and out of your concern for a persons safety (NOT THE CONCERN FOR YOUR WALLET) you stopped and attempted to make a change. Taking a couple of pictures and turning someone in does nothing to prevent an idiot getting hurt today. Maybe in the future but not today, when BCMA drove away chuckling to himself about how stealthy he was, the idiot may have sawed half his head off and died. If you want to try and make a differance make it for the right reason, and do it in a manly fashion.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 23, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> See I respect the hell out of that. You saw a problem and out of your concern for a persons safety (NOT THE CONCERN FOR YOUR WALLET) you stopped and attempted to make a change. Taking a couple of pictures and turning someone in does nothing to prevent an idiot getting hurt today. Maybe in the future but not today, when BCMA drove away chuckling to himself about how stealthy he was, the idiot may have sawed half his head off and died. If you want to try and make a differance make it for the right reason, and do it in a manly fashion.



:chainsawguy:I cut a tree for regular last week.

ACROSS the street , the hacks were working , 3 looking , one chopping a bush with an axe while the boss STOOD next to the bush! I went over and explained to them , that I was busy , and didn't have time to take them to the hospital , I offered to get my saw and cut the bushes for them , which I did on my own time! And was happy to do it! Just think , an Axe to the knee! That would hurt!


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## Dalmatian90 (Aug 23, 2009)

> If he lived thru that little 4" tree on the head bcs of a hh he prob woulda been flattened by a garbage truck on the way home.
> 
> Sometimes it is just your day. Everyone has that day.



I subscribe, instead, to the theory that everyone's born with a finite but unknown amount of luck, and when that luck is up it's up.

Doing work safely, and with PPE as a final layer of protection in case of the unexpected, just makes you use up the luck at a slower pace.


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## outofmytree (Aug 23, 2009)

treemandan said:


> See? Now what is that number?
> 
> Once I saw a road crew( private contractors) and they had some kid running a cut off saw through a lane on a bridge, no cones, no flags, no eye, ear or head protection. I actaulyy stopped and got out for that one. I came round the bend and saw this head in the middle of the road, big ass chop saw screaming and through big time dust, everybody standing round watching the kid cutting.
> Once a township raod crew flew by my roadside work site, took out three cones, I grabbed a 20 and jumped in my truck and too off after them.



I feel that Dan. I have had to physically restrain my leading hand when some idiot drives through our marked,coned and signed work area well over the limit. I took him seriously when he said he was gonna chuck and duck................ and miss the chipper.


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## treevet (Aug 23, 2009)

Dalmatian90 said:


> I subscribe, instead, to the theory that everyone's born with a finite but unknown amount of luck, and when that luck is up it's up.
> 
> Doing work safely, and with PPE as a final layer of protection in case of the unexpected, just makes you use up the luck at a slower pace.



Do you drive your car or truck around with a helmet strapped on then?

I have been in the biz a long time and on these forums for a few years. One thing I have found in common with the strongest of PPE proponents that want it all on from leaving home to going to bed is that they have an anal retentiveness that borders on a mental disorder (obsessive compulsive disorder) and I do not see how they accomplish anything during the day paralyzed by fear and anxiety. It even extends to all they view.

Next thing up is strapping little helmets on all our fingers and thumbs.


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## treemandan (Aug 23, 2009)

treevet said:


> Do you drive your car or truck around with a helmet strapped on then?
> 
> I have been in the biz a long time and on these forums for a few years. One thing I have found in common with the strongest of PPE proponents that want it all on from leaving home to going to bed is that they have an anal retentiveness that borders on a mental disorder (obsessive compulsive disorder) and I do not see how they accomplish anything during the day paralyzed by fear and anxiety. It even extends to all they view.
> 
> Next thing up is strapping little helmets on all our fingers and thumbs.



the horror


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## treevet (Aug 23, 2009)

You wear a hard hat all day on all jobs even when not under a tree Dan and in 100 degree heat?


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## Tree Pig (Aug 23, 2009)

treemandan said:


> the horror



The Horror<--Click Me


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## treevet (Aug 23, 2009)

Apocolypse Now....Great flick


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## treemandan (Aug 23, 2009)

Now the bridge was on a side ride off a country road, not much traffic but then that can be bad cause you think no cars ever come. I stopped to tell them they would have to move the Tri-axle cause the crane was coming over and made a sarcastic statement to one of the chiefs about the kid with the cut off saw. All I know is that I didn't hear anything walking back to my pick -up truck. 
When I caught up to the township guys they where allready out cleaning a drain and I screehed up with a saw in my hand and asked for the m and f'er that hit the cones. The two other guys pointed to the guy taking off through someone's yard.
Working with the two tards am I now I am hoping to be able to spring for some decent hats for them soon. Then I guess I will have to go on strike til they decide to wear them.
A guy wearing a hat while doing some serious work looks good and pro, a guy who has the thing on pruning lilacs really just wants someone to put him out of his misery.


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## treevet (Aug 23, 2009)

I am with ya. There is so much more to safety than PPE. Recognizing ALL risks and worst case scenarios and accounting for each and avoiding, mitigating or eradicating them is foremost IMO. Nobody gets hurt on my job. I do like a little pain now and then tho I have to admit.

(this referring to Dan's post prior to above)


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## Ed Roland (Aug 23, 2009)

I would like to hear bcma's respond to post #61.


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## Curlycherry1 (Aug 23, 2009)

treemandan said:


> A guy wearing a hat while doing some serious work looks good and pro, a guy who has the thing on pruning lilacs really just wants someone to put him out of his misery.



Worst hit I ever took in a woods was loading a trailer behind a tractor with firewood blocks. Had my hardhat on and was getting ready to back up the tractor to be closer to the pile. Helper tossed a ~4"x18" log onto the trailer and it skiped like stone off a wet piece on the trailer and came right up and smacked me on the side part of my helmet like it was making its second skip across a lake. It hit the helmet but it was down far enough on the side that it had a heck of a lot of force upside my head. Knocked me clean right out of the seat of the tractor and onto the ground. Was totally not expecting it so was 110% unprepared. When something like that happens I think it causes more damage because there is no reaction time. One minute I was in the tractor seat and the next I was on the ground thinking WTF was that and where did it come from?


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## outofmytree (Aug 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> Do you drive your car or truck around with a helmet strapped on then?
> 
> I have been in the biz a long time and on these forums for a few years. One thing I have found in common with the strongest of PPE proponents that want it all on from leaving home to going to bed is that they have an anal retentiveness that borders on a mental disorder (obsessive compulsive disorder) and I do not see how they accomplish anything during the day paralyzed by fear and anxiety. It even extends to all they view.
> 
> Next thing up is strapping little helmets on all our fingers and thumbs.



If you need some help in how to work in trees, observe current OSHA regulations and be profitable TV I will gladly help. There is one condition I insist upon. You must stop thinking about my anus and what it retains.


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## ozzy42 (Aug 24, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> I would like to hear bcma's respond to post #61.


:agree2:
Don't think we will.
61 sums him up pretty good.


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## scottedward58 (Aug 24, 2009)

*I negativly rep. you but*

I apologize if you tried to help them. Even if you did though, you most likely came at them with the condescending holier than tho atitude that you did this post. In which case, who wouldn't dismiss what you said. Here's an idea maybe just maybe you have enough gray matter' to know what its like starting out in this industry too have even the slightest respect for someone else to try and teach them a safer way, rather than to try to rid any competition before they have a chance. You know whats really sad is someone took you under their wing and helped you get this far rather than report your early safety violations. I just wish who ever it was who had enough forethought to pass on to you a little respect you self rightous peice of meat. ofcourse they probably did the best that they could with someone like you and now regret the scumbag you've become.
We all are having to deal with these start up, expanding thier work companys. but that does not mean they are bad. They need help. Ethier to make it, or at least keep thier employes safe till they fail.
I could never imagine trying to kill a mans hope like that. I can't even hope the same for you, but I would probably smile to hear you were hit with an osha violation like the ones you were trying to report.
How about letting us know the area that you work so we can watch you with a camara? and instead of us letting you know whats wrong we report your company.


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> Do you drive your car or truck around with a helmet strapped on then?
> 
> I have been in the biz a long time and on these forums for a few years. One thing I have found in common with the strongest of PPE proponents that want it all on from leaving home to going to bed is that they have an anal retentiveness that borders on a mental disorder (obsessive compulsive disorder) and I do not see how they accomplish anything during the day paralyzed by fear and anxiety. It even extends to all they view.
> 
> Next thing up is strapping little helmets on all our fingers and thumbs.



I wear a helmet and jacket when I ride my bike but I dont fear it. I drive with a seatbelt on but I dont fear it, I lock my front door at night (most of the time), I put my daughter in a carseat, I put on sunscreen in summer, I wear glasses and earmuffs when operating grinders, I put a cloth on my shoulder when burping our baby, I take the keys out of my vehicle when its unattended.

Its all stuff done almost automatically to prevent a damaging event that MIGHT happen. Wearing a seatbelt doesnt mean I drive like an idiot or ignore the rest of the road rules or drive in fear. 

PPE makes everyone safer, people take your work site more seriously if your wearing gear and they are more careful around you. Its also a great trigger for putting you and your crew in the work mindset. Helmet on, game on.


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## treevet (Aug 24, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> If you need some help in how to work in trees, observe current OSHA regulations and be profitable TV I will gladly help. There is one condition I insist upon. You must stop thinking about my anus and what it retains.



Anal retentive: "Commonly abbreviated to "anal" is used conversationally to describe a person with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, and can be carried out to the detriment of the anal-retentive person. The term derives from Freudian psychoanalysis."


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## treevet (Aug 24, 2009)

TimberMcPherson said:


> I wear a helmet and jacket when I ride my bike but I dont fear it. I drive with a seatbelt on but I dont fear it, I lock my front door at night (most of the time), I put my daughter in a carseat, I put on sunscreen in summer, I wear glasses and earmuffs when operating grinders, I put a cloth on my shoulder when burping our baby, I take the keys out of my vehicle when its unattended.
> 
> Its all stuff done almost automatically to prevent a damaging event that MIGHT happen. Wearing a seatbelt doesnt mean I drive like an idiot or ignore the rest of the road rules or drive in fear.
> 
> PPE makes everyone safer, people take your work site more seriously if your wearing gear and they are more careful around you. Its also a great trigger for putting you and your crew in the work mindset. Helmet on, game on.



good post


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## outofmytree (Aug 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> Anal retentive: "Commonly abbreviated to "anal" is used conversationally to describe a person with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, and can be carried out to the detriment of the anal-retentive person. The term derives from Freudian psychoanalysis."



Phooey. I still think my interpretation of what you were saying was funnier.


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## outofmytree (Aug 24, 2009)

TimberMcPherson said:


> I wear a helmet and jacket when I ride my bike but I dont fear it. I drive with a seatbelt on but I dont fear it, I lock my front door at night (most of the time), I put my daughter in a carseat, I put on sunscreen in summer, I wear glasses and earmuffs when operating grinders, I put a cloth on my shoulder when burping our baby, I take the keys out of my vehicle when its unattended.
> 
> Its all stuff done almost automatically to prevent a damaging event that MIGHT happen. Wearing a seatbelt doesnt mean I drive like an idiot or ignore the rest of the road rules or drive in fear.
> 
> PPE makes everyone safer, people take your work site more seriously if your wearing gear and they are more careful around you. Its also a great trigger for putting you and your crew in the work mindset. Helmet on, game on.



Careful TM. You keep posting common sense and some of it may filter through to our more reckless brethren. Ye gods. They may even start wearing PPE and teaching their crews to do the same! Then where would we be?!

Humour aside.

This post reflects exactly the way I feel about safety and how I operate. It may slow you down, but then so does tying in twice, checking your knots and checking your DZ before you take out a top. To remain profitable and stay safe you need only to factor in this time and adjust your rates to suit. Just the way you did when earlier on you adopted the other safe work habits you use. Give it try.


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## treevet (Aug 24, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Phooey. I still think my interpretation of what you were saying was funnier.



lol.....you the only one thinks you are real funny. Gotta get back to work


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## outofmytree (Aug 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> You wear a hard hat all day on all jobs even when not under a tree Dan and in 100 degree heat?



Awww, c'mon Dave. 100 degrees is warm water for a babies bath. Try cleaning 24 Cocos palms and 2 Washingtonia's in 109 degrees full gear and saw proof pants. I thought you treevets were tough?!


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## treevet (Aug 24, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Awww, c'mon Dave. 100 degrees is warm water for a babies bath. Try cleaning 24 Cocos palms and 2 Washingtonia's in 109 degrees full gear and saw proof pants. I thought you treevets were tough?!



Yes, we treevets are very tough, but they broke the mold.

You on the other hand.....Last pictures I saw of your job after much hoopla of an upcoming "Huge" crane job turned out to be ...

Somebody else's crew doing all the climbing and rigging and running the job.

Somebody elses truck and chipper chipping all the brush.

Somebody else's crane and crane operator doing the booming.

I think they had you standing on the neighbor's yard and let you have a rake to lean on. Think they had you wearing an apron like out of mum's kitchen too if memory serves me. It was completely chainsaw resistant tho. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## outofmytree (Aug 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> Yes, we treevets are very tough, but they broke the mold.
> 
> You on the other hand.....Last pictures I saw of your job after much hoopla of an upcoming "Huge" crane job turned out to be ...
> 
> ...



Dementia setting in my friend? 

There was no climbing. Rigging for a crane in Australia must be done by a licensed rigger which I am not. I ran the job, I chipped the logs and brush. 

I don't know what YOU call a big tree but here if it measures 28 metres and weighs over 8 tonnes its big. Especially when it is crammed between a roof and a fence only 2.5 metres apart.

Perhaps you should wear your hardhat during racquetball, it seems you may have concussion....:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treevet (Aug 24, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> > I don't know what YOU call a big tree but here if it measures 28 metres and weighs over 8 tonnes its big. Especially when it is crammed between a roof and a fence only 2.5 metres apart.
> 
> 
> someday maybe those boys let you cut down da big twee too.:kilt:opcorn:


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## outofmytree (Aug 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> outofmytree said:
> 
> 
> > someday maybe those boys let you cut down da big twee too.:kilt:opcorn:
> ...


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## 1I'dJak (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:
The differance is you already live in a socialist country, we are trying to fight from becoming one, its the principals our country was founded on, through blood sweat and tears. Canadians just kinda showed up one day and said... Hi we are Canadians and went on accepting whatever comes their way after that 
__________________ 

How did it come to this? I kinda liked your posts till they started becoming ignorant and boorish...I guess I could take your route and say that's what being American is all about, but then I'd be insulting most of my family...keep it to tree work or spew this crap in the political forum...


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## Tree Pig (Aug 25, 2009)

1I'dJak said:


> Quote:
> The differance is you already live in a socialist country, we are trying to fight from becoming one, its the principals our country was founded on, through blood sweat and tears. Canadians just kinda showed up one day and said... Hi we are Canadians and went on accepting whatever comes their way after that
> __________________
> 
> How did it come to this? I kinda liked your posts till they started becoming ignorant and boorish...I guess I could take your route and say that's what being American is all about, but then I'd be insulting most of my family...keep it to tree work or spew this crap in the political forum...



Hmm for some reason you decided to duplicate this reply, but I am sure you read it in the other post. Hope you never get cancer then you will see what makes our country so great and why we are fighting to keep the government out of our lives, which had a direct relationship to this post.

As a smart man once said

"Feel free to skip the posts you dont like" _FisherCat_


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## treeslayer (Aug 25, 2009)

BCMA said:


> Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.



What I got from reading this thread, is our industry does not appreciate the intrusion of Big Govt. into our business. not lack of concern for safety, as much as reluctance for over regulation.

you seem to take it too personal, but you have free agency to follow your own will. but boy, you are going to get apoplexy at this rate.

gotta commend your spirit,  but be careful what you wish for. I've done tree work in 10 states in the last 4-5 years, and its the same all over. be grateful you're a good guy. 


I've done electrical work since 1981, and have switched over to almost entirely tree work in the last 7-8 years. OSHA and insurance company requirements have strangled that trade with overblown regulations. basic PPE is just plain smart, but a full fall arrest rig to get on a 8' ladder or taller? it gets worse, but I digress.

this is a business that has, and always will attract hacks and crooks. easy money in their eyes, and without our overhead, it is.
the chit makes the real tree guy smell like a rose. I get a lot of satisfaction just knowing I do it right, safe while being affordable for the client.


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## 1I'dJak (Aug 25, 2009)

> Hmm for some reason you decided to duplicate this reply, but I am sure you read it in the other post. Hope you never get cancer then you will see what makes our country so great and why we are fighting to keep the government out of our lives, which had a direct relationship to this post.



Don't see how my getting cancer makes your country so great...I do understand what overregulation can do to an industry...I also do know what lack of supervision and the downloading of resposibilities can do to a workforce... the BC logging industry has suffered from both...


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## tree MDS (Aug 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> Yes, we treevets are very tough, but they broke the mold.
> 
> You on the other hand.....Last pictures I saw of your job after much hoopla of an upcoming "Huge" crane job turned out to be ...
> 
> ...



That was pretty good. I remember that one, lol.


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## fishercat (Aug 25, 2009)

*basically it boils down to this...........*



treeslayer said:


> What I got from reading this thread, is our industry does not appreciate the intrusion of Big Govt. into our business. not lack of concern for safety, as much as reluctance for over regulation.
> 
> you seem to take it too personal, but you have free agency to follow your own will. but boy, you are going to get apoplexy at this rate.
> 
> ...



originally,tree guys are tough and self sufficient good old boys and want to be left alone so they can get things done.

along comes the city boy yuppies who were coddled their whole life and now that they are adults they realize they still need someone to hold their hand and tell them it's gonna be all right.

the problem lies in the fact they don't know that there are people in the world who aren't like them.

they still need some overbearing figure to run to for comfort when they don't get their way.

this obviously is not the best profession for them to be in.

or the best country for that matter.


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## newsawtooth (Aug 26, 2009)

*Dude...*

...you live in Connecticut, I wouldn't exactly call it a rural state. You said yourself Conn is where rules come from. BCMA, lives in Idaho, which is roughly 17 times larger than Conn, with half the people. Not that that has anything to do with the thread. Furthermore, why is it, that if someone disagrees with you, they are instantly branded unpatriotic and unfit for citizenship? 

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."-Billy Madison



fishercat said:


> originally,tree guys are tough and self sufficient good old boys and want to be left alone so they can get things done.
> 
> along comes the city boy yuppies who were coddled their whole life and now that they are adults they realize they still need someone to hold their hand and tell them it's gonna be all right.
> 
> ...


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## Tree Pig (Aug 26, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> ...you live in Connecticut, I wouldn't exactly call it a rural state. You said yourself Conn is where rules come from. BCMA, lives in Idaho, which is roughly 17 times larger than Conn, with half the people. Not that that has anything to do with the thread. Furthermore, why is that if someone disagrees with you, they are instantly branded unpatriotic and unfit for citizenship?
> 
> "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."-Billy Madison



The part you didnt know is that though he lives in Ct. he is not from Ct.. You know what they say about you assume. But this time it only made an ass out of you.

But just so you do know Ct. does still have very rural areas.


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## outofmytree (Aug 26, 2009)

fishercat said:


> originally,tree guys are tough and self sufficient good old boys and want to be left alone so they can get things done.
> 
> along comes the city boy yuppies who were coddled their whole life and now that they are adults they realize they still need someone to hold their hand and tell them it's gonna be all right.
> 
> ...



This is one of the stupidest generalisations you have made to date and that is saying something. 

Flick back a few pages and read Timber Mcphersons well written posts. Safety does not equate to cowardice or fear. Safety is about making sure that everyone who works gets to go home alive and well.

Your paranoid posts suggest you fear an OSHA inspection because you know you cannot comply. If you are unable to work safely and within the rules then *YOU* are probably in the wrong profession.


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 26, 2009)

*a little history*



fishercat said:


> originally,tree guys are tough and self sufficient good old boys and want to be left alone so they can get things done.
> 
> along comes the city boy yuppies who were coddled their whole life and now that they are adults they realize they still need someone to hold their hand and tell them it's gonna be all right.
> 
> ...



The good ole boys used to be killed in there hundreds because there was no motivation for the large companies that controlled a massive amount of the logging happening world wide when saving lives would have cost them money. Guys died and that was considered "part of the job". Guys were poisoned and that was considered "part of the job", guys were maimed and it was considered "part of the job". Lot of tough guys ended up dead, destitute or crippled for life and died poor, hungry and most importantly, quietly.

The song sixteen tons has a line "I owe my soul to the company store" which is reference to the all to common at the time truck system and associated debt bondage. Many loggers, miners etc didnt get paid money but has an account at the companys store and lived in company owned accomodation. The company store sold goods to there workers at massively inflated prices and rents were very high. Basically you couldnt get away from the company because the cost of working for the company was a little higher than what you were paid for working for the company. 

Get hurt or sick on the job and the company doctor might look you over (at your cost) but if you couldnt work and couldnt supply sons to do your job while you recovered, you were thrown out of you home or living quarters and the company auctioned your goods to recover part of the debt you owed them. This practise that was such a huge part of the industry in US, Canada and NZ is still common in countries such as peru and papua new guinea. (and I worked in the cotton industry in Aus where its alive and well)

These tough guys needed support and government regulation/protection so they started forming unions. Alot of lives were saved. And more lives continue to be saved due to reglatory standards to this date, they might not always be welcome, but its only through regulation that there is a general uptake of safety equipment and systems throughout an industry. We only really get our vehicles inspected regularly due to the law, dont we?

Even with major increases in safety equipment and systems, loggers are more productive now than they have ever been. If tough guys want to be left alone then they shouldnt make use of roads, vehicles, banks, houses, electricity, food or fuel as they all have forms of regulation and laws associated with them to ensure they are to a reasonable standard and safe.


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## treemandan (Aug 26, 2009)

TimberMcPherson said:


> The good ole boys used to be killed in there hundreds because there was no motivation for the large companies that controlled a massive amount of the logging happening world wide when saving lives would have cost them money. Guys died and that was considered "part of the job". Guys were poisoned and that was considered "part of the job", guys were maimed and it was considered "part of the job". Lot of tough guys ended up dead, destitute or crippled for life and died poor, hungry and most importantly, quietly.
> 
> The song sixteen tons has a line "I owe my soul to the company store" which is reference to the all to common at the time truck system and associated debt bondage. Many loggers, miners etc didnt get paid money but has an account at the companys store and lived in company owned accomodation. The company store sold goods to there workers at massively inflated prices and rents were very high. Basically you couldnt get away from the company because the cost of working for the company was a little higher than what you were paid for working for the company.
> 
> ...



Yes, if it wasn't for agencies like osha we would not have a leg to stand on.


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## newsawtooth (Aug 26, 2009)

*Stihl-O*

...don't get me wrong, I like New England and understand the rural nature of the areas outside of the cities. In fact, the diversity and size of the species that you get to work on makes me envious as I ponder another cottonwood removal. I just don't get how the urban/rural class war relates to safety.



Stihl-O-Matic said:


> The part you didnt know is that though he lives in Ct. he is not from Ct.. You know what they say about you assume. But this time it only made an ass out of you.
> 
> But just so you do know Ct. does still have very rural areas.


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## Ed Roland (Aug 26, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yes, if it wasn't for agencies like osha we would not have a leg to stand on.



Get it? a leg to stand on. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## pdqdl (Aug 26, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> ...
> I just don't get how the urban/rural class war relates to safety.



Misconceptions, prejudices, unstated agenda's: it is the human condition to have every argument warped, twisted, and distorted until it fits the purpose of the arguing parties. 

With so many people participating at AS, each with their own personal bones to pick with the world, it takes no small amount of time to settle a thread. Besides, I thought everyone knew that the rednecks were tough, capable workers and anyone that ever came from a town was just a wussy looking for a free ride in life. 








_THAT ought to get the class war started!_






I'm just joking, guys! :jester: You need to lighten up if that got you upset.


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## treevet (Aug 27, 2009)

If one can speak in generalities....city work....much more demanding and difficult than rural work. I have done them both extensively.


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## clearance (Aug 27, 2009)

treevet said:


> If one can speak in generalities....city work....much more demanding and difficult than rural work. I have done them both extensively.



Only the city people make it hard, everything else is easier. I have done both too. The bush is tougher in pretty well every way, but I much prefer it.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2009)

clearance said:


> Only the city people make it hard, everything else is easier. I have done both too. The bush is tougher in pretty well every way, but I much prefer it.



Clearance don't get too far out in the bush, you got to have interaction with people pard.


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## clearance (Aug 27, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Clearance don't get too far out in the bush, you got to have interaction with people pard.



I got no problem with people Rope, just seems the further out in the bush you go, there is less of them and they are better.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2009)

clearance said:


> I got no problem with people Rope, just seems the further out in the bush you go, there is less of them and they are better.



Yeah If I were still doing your gig that's where I enjoyed working too. City folk are somewhat turned into azzholes. I don't think it is all their fault but we were not really intended to live like sardines. I got pretty good at dealing with both but country folk is where I come from and they understand me better. Having said that when you run into a bad apple in the country he is usually worse than one in the city jme.


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## treevet (Aug 27, 2009)

If talking about the people, can't help but agree, I am essentially a country boy and they are more laid back. Some can be strange as mentioned tho. Remembered once pulling up to a desolated house and the 7 year old boy was on all 4's barking at us just like the dog was. That is all he knew. Funny but at the same time sad.

What I was referring to, along with the people you deal with, is the tightness of rigging and equipment access, always having to get rid of everything, and very few and distant places to take it to. More skills used on a regular basis and always more liability day to day. Stress all day, no fishing in a pond at lunch time.


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## pdqdl (Aug 27, 2009)

I can't fish. I have such bad luck, no one has caught a fish in my presence in 25 years. I can go to opening day on trout season; hundreds of fishermen lining the banks. Nobody catches a fish when I am there. I have gone fishing with folks that told me that they NEVER fail to catch fish at their private hole. I went, sat quietly on the bank, they caught nothing.

Yes. I have a black cloud that follows me around everywhere I go!

(much like Joe Btfsplk, from the Lil Abner comic strip)
http://www.lil-abner.com/other.html

For you youngsters that never heard of this: (from Wikipedia) ...Another famous character was Joe Btfsplk, who wanted to be a loving friend but was "the world's worst jinx," bringing bad luck to all those nearby. Btfsplk (his name was "pronounced" by simply blowing a "raspberry" or Bronx cheer) always had an iconic dark cloud over his head.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I can't fish. I have such bad luck, no one has caught a fish in my presence in 25 years. I can go to opening day on trout season; hundreds of fishermen lining the banks. Nobody catches a fish when I am there. I have gone fishing with folks that told me that they NEVER fail to catch fish at their private hole. I went, sat quietly on the bank, they caught nothing.
> 
> Yes. I have a black cloud that follows me around everywhere I go!
> 
> ...


Oh shoot come on down I will break your spell lmao we have some different methods of fishing bring a large net and ear muffs :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treevet (Aug 27, 2009)

hey.......wait a minute.....that sounds illegal lol


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## pdqdl (Aug 27, 2009)

I think you tipped me off rope! When I was a kid, I spent a great deal of time seining creeks and ponds.

It's the world getting even, after all these years.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2009)

treevet said:


> hey.......wait a minute.....that sounds illegal lol



Ehhhh just hand him a lit stick and ask if he is gonna fish or write a ticket:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Ed Roland (Aug 27, 2009)

treevet said:


> hey.......wait a minute.....that sounds illegal lol



Maybe we should sneak up behind him and take a photo that we can later send to the DNR. One less fisherman in the pond, eh?


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> Maybe we should sneak up behind him and take a photo that we can later send to the DNR. One less fisherman in the pond, eh?



Better do a sweep for jumping jonny's lmao


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## treemandan (Aug 27, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> Get it? a leg to stand on. :hmm3grin2orange:



You must have long arms cause you be reaching


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## treevet (Aug 27, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> Maybe we should sneak up behind him and take a photo that we can later send to the DNR. One less fisherman in the pond, eh?



I know just the man for the camera....


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2009)

treevet said:


> I know just the man for the camera....



Ok guy's like you know I am kidding right, don't have the atf sent out to find an old fart with nothing but firecrackers lmfao.:monkey:


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## treevet (Aug 27, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> don't have the atf sent out



forget bout the atf, when the bcma comes after ya those fish and frogs can swim at ease


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## ropensaddle (Aug 28, 2009)

treevet said:


> forget bout the atf, when the bcma comes after ya those fish and frogs can swim at ease



Lol they can swim at ease now friend, I have bigger fish to fry no pun intended


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## treeslayer (Aug 28, 2009)

look closely, 4 of these are legal.


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## treeslayer (Aug 28, 2009)

and only 2 of these.
I told him to throw em back, they were not in season, he looked at me funny and said, dad, a little old bay in the seafood breading, and they'll BE in season.

:hmm3grin2orange:


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