# took a chainsaw to the face



## monkeymanjoe

I have done alot of pretty dangerous trees and walked away thinking "thank God I made it". I had a tree to top back in January of this year, it was only about 40ft. I figured that it wasn't going to be anything to "hairy". I can't remember too much of that day.., but what I do remember was the saw kicking back and then a terrible pain in my face. I remember talking myself down. As soon as I hit the ground I was out. I woke up 2 days later in ICU. I was put in an induced coma because of the pain. The surgeon lost count at 300 stitches. I have a steel plate in my left side of my face. I cut all my teeth so that now the roots are exposed. 
The worst thing is that the owner of the company that I was working for said "Joe., who?" He was paying me under the table. I have been working for this guy on and off for about 10 years. But when I had the accident he said that I was an independent contractor. At this time I had been with him about 8 months. The accident happened on January 9th and at the end of January I receives a 1099 from the company I was working for. 
I was in the hospital for 10 days and my former employer never once called or showed up to see me. Don't get me wrong he was there the day it happened. (This is what I was told). He sat out in the waiting room with my family. He told my fiance that he was going to pay for our wedding, that he would bring me back as a foreman and that he would help us with the mortgage payments for a while. But we are still not married, I had to find a new full time job and we are behind in the mortgage payments because I was out of work for 6 months. 
He waited at the hospital till OSHA came, when they were done questioning him and his other employees he left to go play bingo at the casino.
I obtained an attorney and filed a claim with workers comp. I got denied. Because I own my own company and I was using my own chainsaw the day of the accident. The judge also said that because my boss was not there to supervise me and to see the finished work that meant that I was not an employee. 
Well first of all, I just started my own company and there was no way for me to stop working full time. I did my thing on the weekends. Secondly how many of you men use your own chainsaws working for someone else.? Lastly does the owner of a tree company always come to the job site and sit there till the job is done?
I am appealing the decision. But until then I have to deal with the pain from my teeth because I don't have the money to pay to have them fixed. I am in the Dr's. office about once a month because my mouth is infected and because of the pain. 
I am sorry for rambling on. I just needed to vent. Is there anyone else who has dealt a situation like this? If so feel free to contact me. I would like to hear someone say that they had a happy ending in a similar situation. 
Thanks for listening.
Donations would be greatly appreciated.
I have attached 2 photos. They are not for the weak at heart.


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## sawinredneck

MAN!!!!! I had no idea!!! So sorry about that!!! Everything about that SUCKS!!!!!!:jawdrop:


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## superfire

*sorry too hear*

god bless you and family during the long recovery.


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## Tekko

OMG:jawdrop: 

Thats about the worst i ever seen apart from guys loosing their arms, legs and heads in chippers.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Can you tell us anything more about the kickback, or you body positioning?

What saw were you using?


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## BostonBull

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Can you tell us anything more about the kickback, or you body positioning?
> 
> What saw were you using?



X2


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## OLD CHIPMONK

Sorry you got injured & hope you make out on appeal ! According to IRS the only way a worker can be considered a SUB-CONTRACTOR : If your employer DOCUMENTS that you carry your own LIABILITY INSURANCE & WORKERS COMPENSATION ! Hire a good attorney , on contingency fee , if possible & see where it leads ! Once again GOOD LUCK !


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## TimberMcPherson

Best of luck mate, those are some hellish pics.

The system of having to find someone at fault or in charge to pay for bills is BS, such a f***** up system, its about time it was changed. Only makes the lawyers richer. I hope it goes you way.


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## Wolfcsm

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not think I have heard of or seen much worse.

I wish you all the luck you need in your appeal.

Hal


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## alanarbor

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Can you tell us anything more about the kickback, or you body positioning?
> 
> What saw were you using?



X3


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## jtaylor

one more reason not to top trees? best of luck in the recovery.


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## Bigus Termitius

jtaylor said:


> one more reason not to top trees? best of luck in the recovery.



At least not at the same level as your face. What a sobering situation. I'm thinking strongly about adding a face screen to my arsenal.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Bigus Termitius said:


> I'm thinking strongly about adding a face screen to my arsenal.



That would not help, though I do know 3 people who claim that the brim of their helmet saved face on a kickback.


Two hands and good body positioning will keep you safer.


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## Bigus Termitius

John Paul Sanborn said:


> That would not help, though I do know 3 people who claim that the brim of their helmet saved face on a kickback.
> 
> 
> Two hands and good body positioning will keep you safer.



I'll agree with that, but I'll take all I can get after seeing that pic. In certain situations I can see the screen being virtually irrelevant, in others I can see it making just enough of a difference. Perhaps a face shield would play a larger role. I'm not using one currently, but a pic like that makes ya think.

Nevertheless, Two hands and a sound position makes all the initial difference IMHO. I'm assuming that he was cutting right at face level, which I can't understand.


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## polexie

All the best to you and your family, good luck recovering!!!!!!!


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## lawson's tree s

good luck with your recovery. hopefully your ex boss would act like a man and at least pay all your hospital bills. hope you end up getting getting him to pay.


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## Sprig

lawson's tree s said:


> good luck with your recovery. hopefully your ex boss would act like a man and at least pay all your hospital bills. hope you end up getting getting him to pay.



+1 man! I hope it all works out for you and you heal up well and can carry on once again in a normal fashion though I know its going to be a rough go for a while.

Regards,

Serge


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## Ekka

Monkeymanjoe I am sincerely sorry to hear of your situation.

Over here YOU WOULD NEVER be in that position, here whether you are a contractor or not YOU GET WC.

I have on many occasions debated with Americans on this board about their inferior health systems which again leave a young man like you in a dark hole.

Wishing you a strong recovery and from whatever systems they have over there I hope they help you out.


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## monkeymanjoe

*Thank you*

I wanted to thank you all for the words of incouragment. I really appreciate it. It was a Stihl MS200T with the rackers filed down. The only thing I am going after my ex boss for is the medical bills. Its not like I am trying to take his house or anything of that sort. I would just like to chomp into a nice piece of steak without practically breaking down in tears. 
Thanks again for all your thoughts and prayers.


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## sawinredneck

Ekka said:


> Monkeymanjoe I am sincerely sorry to hear of your situation.
> 
> Over here YOU WOULD NEVER be in that position, here whether you are a contractor or not YOU GET WC.
> 
> I have on many occasions debated with Americans on this board about their inferior health systems which again leave a young man like you in a dark hole.
> 
> Wishing you a strong recovery and from whatever systems they have over there I hope they help you out.



We disagree on about everything, but I have seen to often of late that Americas health care system SUCKS AZZ!!!!!


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## gmcman

Holy Crap!! Man...i'm sincerely sorry for what you are going through....I couldn't possibly imagine. Like the other poster said, did you have taxes taken out even though he was paying under the table? Not sure if it matters but after seeing those pics, the gloves have to come off. I don't care if he's a great friend..whatever, you need to get fixed my friend. Just ask him staight-up that you need money for the hospital and again like someone else said...you aren't after his house but if you have to..take as much legal action as necessary. Forget the past and do what you need to get better, if it means he has to sell a car or two..oh well, just don't let up.

This guy needs to man up to the situation and use the mental anguish you are going through ( and physical pain) to fuel your fire....hope you fully recover, best of luck.


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## Ductape

Monkeyman, god bless you, your fiance, and your family. That is a serious injury. I certainly hope the guy you were working for mans up and helps you out as much as he can.

That being said..... to anyone who feels we need our government to provide us all with healthcare, i feel you are dead wrong. Can you name ONE thing our government does well? I didn't think so

I've worked under the table. I've paid people under the table (or should i say used "sub-contractors"). We've all done it, and we know the risks in doing it. But we all do what we need to do to keep food on the table. Going back after the fact and claiming you are an employee when you know you are working under the table doesn't fly. This is not aimed at you Monkeyman.... just in general.

If you are behind on the mortgage over this, then you should look into bankruptcy..... soon ! This will at least save your house. I'm not a fan of bankruptcy.... but its there for a reason.

Keep us informed about your recovery. I hope you get healed up quickly.... and i hope the guy you were working for steps up to the plate.


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## lees trees

Ekka said:


> Monkeymanjoe I am sincerely sorry to hear of your situation.
> 
> Over here YOU WOULD NEVER be in that position, here whether you are a contractor or not YOU GET WC.
> 
> I have on many occasions debated with Americans on this board about their inferior health systems which again leave a young man like you in a dark hole.
> 
> Wishing you a strong recovery and from whatever systems they have over there I hope they help you out.



I'm sure your right about our health care. from my view we americans have a choice pay-up or take your chances, and there is a ton of pressure to take your chances. Who pays for your WC?


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## lees trees

are you back to work yet?


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## RaisedByWolves

lees trees said:


> I'm sure your right about our health care. *from my view we americans have a choice pay-up or take your chances*, and there is a ton of pressure to take your chances. Who pays for your WC?



+2


WC=Welfare Care.



.


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## Ekka

sawinredneck said:


> but I have seen to often of late that Americas health care system SUCKS AZZ!!!!!



The system, not the actual care provided.



lees trees said:


> Who pays for your WC?



The employer pays the Workers Compensation premium. Where I live the WC is run by the Govt as *you cannot trust something this sensitive to private insurers who care more for profits and shareholders than your health.
*

My WC premium is under 2% of gross payroll as we have not had a claim.

Over here if the principal supply under contract is labor (regardless if you own business) you are covered by WC.

For example, climber is predominantly labor supply, he physically has to do the work so he will fall under the boss's WC. However, contractor supplies chipper and bobcat ... that's different as the predominant supply is machinery.

If you are in doubt you can ring them or fill in a survey for the various things and they make judgement if the contractor is under your WC or not.

With workers on average being 1/3 of the business overheads it's important to keep the costs associated of employing people in check, premiums like you guys have quoted around the board of 50% and 70% on top of wages is frankly ridiculous. You'd either not hire or not pay insurance or pay workers cash under the table etc.

Over here a few years back there was a deluge of workers placed into contractor rolls as employers thought the contractor was responsible for their own WC. Consequently many of the contractors didn't have WC but their jobs continued the same as before, however this was wrong and not even a loop hole just ignorance on the employers behalf. The govt made sure it was common knowledge that where labour is the supply then you have to pay the WC.

When everyone is paying the WC then not only is everyone covered but the pool of money is higher placing less stress onto business overheads as premiums are lower.

Now lets go one step further for the argumentative.

You then set yourself up as a company and become an employee. You get to pay a low 2% for your WC on yourself and have benefits that leave a private insurer in the dust. When I tried to privately insure as a self employed the premium was 10% with crappy cover and waiting periods and hospital bills not covered ... that's another policy.

--------------​
*Also, if for some reason some-one ended up like the guy who started this thread the WC would pay and fine/persue the business owner ... the worker gets what they should have rightfully had in the first place, it's not the workers fault the boss is a lier and cheat.
*


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## monkeymanjoe

*I am back to work*

Yes I am back to work. I am still doing the tree thing. My family is not too happy about that, but we need to eat, and that dreaded holiday is creeping up on us. This is the only thing that I have ever been good at. And to be honest I love doing this.


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## Treetom

*Chain break?*

MonkeyMan,

That's a scary-looking wound. My heart goes out to you and your family. I've been reminded of a lot by my fellow AS members of how dangerous this business can be. Thanks for the wake-up call.


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## lawson's tree s

glad to hear your back moving around and doing what you love tree work. like i said before your old boss should step up a be a man and pay your hospital bills. your family shouldn't stay mad long they just got to know that sitting around worring and not working aint helping either. it was a bad mishap but it could have been worse it could have been a arm , leg etc . keep up the good faith hopefully your old boss will pay you what you deserve . good luck!!


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## TimberMcPherson

Ekka said:


> The system, not the actual care provided.
> 
> 
> 
> The employer pays the Workers Compensation premium. Where I live the WC is run by the Govt as *you cannot trust something this sensitive to private insurers who care more for profits and shareholders than your health.
> *
> 
> My WC premium is under 2% of gross payroll as we have not had a claim.
> 
> Over here if the principal supply under contract is labor (regardless if you own business) you are covered by WC.
> 
> For example, climber is predominantly labor supply, he physically has to do the work so he will fall under the boss's WC. However, contractor supplies chipper and bobcat ... that's different as the predominant supply is machinery.
> 
> If you are in doubt you can ring them or fill in a survey for the various things and they make judgement if the contractor is under your WC or not.
> 
> With workers on average being 1/3 of the business overheads it's important to keep the costs associated of employing people in check, premiums like you guys have quoted around the board of 50% and 70% on top of wages is frankly ridiculous. You'd either not hire or not pay insurance or pay workers cash under the table etc.
> 
> Over here a few years back there was a deluge of workers placed into contractor rolls as employers thought the contractor was responsible for their own WC. Consequently many of the contractors didn't have WC but their jobs continued the same as before, however this was wrong and not even a loop hole just ignorance on the employers behalf. The govt made sure it was common knowledge that where labour is the supply then you have to pay the WC.
> 
> When everyone is paying the WC then not only is everyone covered but the pool of money is higher placing less stress onto business overheads as premiums are lower.
> 
> Now lets go one step further for the argumentative.
> 
> You then set yourself up as a company and become an employee. You get to pay a low 2% for your WC on yourself and have benefits that leave a private insurer in the dust. When I tried to privately insure as a self employed the premium was 10% with crappy cover and waiting periods and hospital bills not covered ... that's another policy.
> 
> --------------​
> *Also, if for some reason some-one ended up like the guy who started this thread the WC would pay and fine/persue the business owner ... the worker gets what they should have rightfully had in the first place, it's not the workers fault the boss is a lier and cheat.
> *



We have a simular system, we call it ACC (accident compensation corperation), I think I pay about 2% as well, although it varies with different people in different jobs.
One of my guys had a tendon problem, he doesnt get paid the first week hes injured but after that the Govt payed him something like 70% of his wages for the 3 months, all doctors bill, physio and surgery. (I think he might have had to pay like $100 or something). If he couldnt return to work they would have helped source retraining for something else or helped me find work he was more capable of.
ACC covers you for everything from car accidents to kayaking and cancer, its not a perfect system but its lawyer free.
The insurance industry has tried hard to get rid of acc and every now and then you hear about people trying to bring in litigation, but NZers are dead against it.


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## 00chris85

*your lucky as hell*

your have got a horse with new shoes on in your ass
those stitches you got are nothing...
3" or less lower and you would have got your jugular.
in any case good luck with your recovery.


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## (WLL)

*what a damd sham*

my deepest sympathy's to u and the family. i work with the fear of being hurt every day. I like u am working under the table and have a great family also. keep the faith up and this should work out for you. i feel my boss would do this to me in your situation and it scares the chit out of me. get a good lawyer with a strong reputation and take that man 4 all he is worth in money because he stabbed you and your family in the face. and that is truly f-up and all to common in the USA. i am a strong believer in do to others as you would want them to do to you. an eye for en eye face for a face hart for a hart and a house for a house. he should suffer 10x more then you and that auta learn em. a good employee is hard to find but a good employer is even harder to find. my pay rate is fair at $250.00-$31.50 per day/hr but for every $100 i earn the boss will get 1,000 or more. i think i make more than most climbers in the state of NJ but i still live week 2 week with a 4 person family. and cannot afford med ins. my boss will make 10,000 per week and has everything and more. he also knows nothing about trees either. i could go get a legal job for 400.00 per week- taxes- insurance for the fam and we would slowly starve to death. the USA is f-up something horrible. well best wishes to u and the family.


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## BostonBull

Still no answer on HOW this happened? 

Was it a top handle saw, a rear handle? What caused it? Your pictures are great to use in a safety meeting, but the story behind them is the important part!


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## Ductape

And..... at risk of sounding like an a hole, i must ask...... how do you look now? I assume scarred pretty well? Amazing what they can do nowadays.


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## alanarbor

monkeymanjoe said:


> It was a Stihl MS200T with the rackers filed down.



And what were you doing when the kickback occurred? What kind of cut?


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## John Paul Sanborn

monkeymanjoe said:


> I can't remember too much of that day.., but what I do remember was the saw kicking back and then a terrible pain in my face....It was a Stihl MS200T with the rakers filed down.



Traumatic injury often leads to loss of the short term memory preceding the incident.

The rakers filed down does lend it'self to kickback because the cutter become so aggressive.


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## (WLL)

man thats a nitemare accident !iv never been hurt bad but hearing your story makes me scared 2 work 4 small companies like i do at the moment.thats messed up that your old boss would act like a total looser.im sorry too here about what happen its making me rethink about what companies i wana work 4 .good luck 2 u,always remember that it could of been worse (wll ) little brother ps can u send current pics


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## fpyontek

Monkeyman, I hope you are able to put your life back in order after such a terrible accident and subsequent ordeal. You do need a competent attorney who practices Workman's Compensation law.



Ductape said:


> ...
> I've worked under the table. I've paid people under the table (or should i say used "sub-contractors"). We've all done it, and we know the risks in doing it. But we all do what we need to do to keep food on the table. Going back after the fact and claiming you are an employee when you know you are working under the table doesn't fly. This is not aimed at you Monkeyman.... just in general.
> ...



Working "under the table" does not change the fact that you were actually working for your this guy when the accident occurred. Whether you were working as an employee or as a sub-contractor is irrelevant, you should be entitled to Workman's Compensation coverage. 

I can only state what I know to be true about Workman's Compensation Insurance in New Jersey. However, I can assume that WC works similarly in New York.
* New Jersey law requires employers to carry WC insurance.
* I am required to pay additional premiums on any sub-contractor who fails to produce proof of carrying WC insurance himself (a certificate of insurance) by the time of my insurance policy audit.

As a sub-contractor It doesn't matter how he pays you, (cash or check) he is required to report those payments to his WC auditor. Therefore, in New Jersey at least, you should be entitled to WC coverage because additional premiums were paid on the amount paid to you.

Best Wishes, Fred.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

The contractor doesn't pay WC on sub-contractors, that I know of, but it is his responsibility to make sure he is insured. Just like it's the homeowner's responsibility to make sure the contractor is insured.
WC is so important.


Sorry to hear of your accident and hope for the best to you and your family during your recovery.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Interesting article on the subject of subcontractor or employee:http://www.peakconsultinginc.com/Articles/employee_vs_independent_contract.htm


> "Does the business require the worker to follow their instructions on how work is to be performed? If yes, this indicates employee status. An independent contractor will generally decide how the project should be completed and use his own methodology.
> 
> Does the business provide training to the worker? If you're hiring a person for a job they are not trained for and providing them with the training to carry it out, that person is probably an employee. There can be exceptions based on the facts and circumstances, but if you fail this test, you might lose no matter how many of the others you pass.
> 
> Are the worker’s services a substantial or integral part of the business? This indicates employee status because it indicates the business maintains direction and control over the worker.
> 
> Does the business require the worker to perform all services personally? Independent contractors may have their own employees or at least should have the option of hiring other contractors to perform their work. Agreements for personal services indicate employee status.
> 
> Does the business hire, supervise and pay the worker’s assistants? If so, this is a strong indication of employee status. Let the independent contractor pay his or her own assistants.
> 
> Does the business have an ongoing relationship with the worker? This one is a stretch since many businesses maintain lifelong relationships with contractors whose work they like. But the IRS views this as an indication of employee status.
> 
> Does the business set the worker’s schedule and hours? Independent contractors generally set their own work schedules. If the contractor must work certain hours because of required interrelationships with your employees or to take advantage of down time for computer-related work, document these facts.
> 
> Does the business require the worker full-time? This is an indication of employee status because the business controls their availability and prevents them from working on other clients.
> 
> Does the business provide the workspace? Contractors who work off-site are more likely to be classified an independent contractor.
> 
> Does the business determine the order or sequence in which work is completed? Indicates employee status. If specific schedules are required, document them in the contract with the reasoning for doing so.
> 
> Does the business require oral or written reports? The IRS believes regular written or oral reports detailing the work completed indicates employee status. In reality, this is, and should be, expected from independent contractors as well.
> 
> Does the business pay by the hour, week or month? This indicates employee status. See our comments at the end of this article on this issue.
> 
> Does the business pay expenses? This is an indication that the business is directing the Independent contractor's business activities. Make sure the independent contractor pays the expenses and bills you for reimbursement.
> 
> Does the business provide tools and equipment for the worker? Independent contractors would normally provide their own tools and equipment.
> 
> Does the worker have a significant investment in their own facilities? If the contractor maintains his own office space, computer equipment, tools, etc., this is a good indication that they are an independent contractor.
> 
> Does the worker have profits and losses independent of the business? This is an indication that the contractor is running his own bona fide business and is an independent contractor.
> 
> Does the worker have multiple clients? Working with multiple clients generally indicates independent contractor status.
> 
> Does the worker market their services to the general public? Employees do not generally market their services to the general public.
> 
> Does the business have the right to discharge the worker at any time? This suggests employee status. An independent contractor would only be discharged for failure to meet contract specifications.
> 
> Does the worker have the right to quit at any time? An independent contractor is under contract and cannot quit until the project is completed. "


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## AxeKnot

monkeymanjoe said:


> It was a Stihl MS200T with the rakers filed down.



I'm sorry for the pain you had to go through and I wish you all the best for the future.

When you say the rakers were filed down....how much are we taking here? 1/2/mm below the point of the teeth?

I've seen guys filing down rakers thinking it will speed up their cutting, its a bad practice. 

There is a reason why the manufacturers recommended filing the rakers only a certain amount and no more. It is due to the the massive increase in the risk of kickback.

I take it everyone has seen this famous kickback injury from the New Zealand Health and Safety website?


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## fpyontek

Mike Maas said:


> The contractor doesn't pay WC on sub-contractors, that I know of, but it is his responsibility to make sure he is insured. ...



Let me repeat what I said in my earlier post, put it in bold type, and state it simply so as not to confuse anyone. 

HERE IN NEW JERSEY I PAY 22 PERCENT ADDITIONAL PREMIUMS ON ALL PAYMENTS MADE TO SUB-CONTRACTORS WHO HAVE NOT PROVIDED ME WITH A CERTIFICATE OF INSURANCE, THAT INDICATES THEY CARRIED WORKMAN'S COMPENSATION INSURANCE DURING THE TIME(S) WORK WAS PERFORMED, BY THE TIME THE AUDITOR ARRIVES FOR WORKMAN'S COMPENSATION AUDIT. 

I CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT WORKMAN'S COMPENSATION WORKS SIMILARLY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.


Fred


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## John Paul Sanborn

fpyontek said:


> Let me repeat what I said in my earlier post, put it in bold type, and state it simply so as not to confuse anyone.
> 
> HERE IN NEW JERSEY I PAY 22 PERCENT ADDITIONAL PREMIUMS ON ALL PAYMENTS MADE TO SUB-CONTRACTORS WHO HAVE NOT PROVIDED ME WITH A CERTIFICATE OF INSURANCE, THAT INDICATES THEY CARRIED WORKMAN'S COMPENSATION INSURANCE DURING THE TIME(S) WORK WAS PERFORMED, BY THE TIME THE AUDITOR ARRIVES FOR WORKMAN'S COMPENSATION AUDIT.
> 
> I CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT WORKMAN'S COMPENSATION WORKS SIMILARLY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.
> 
> 
> Fred



In WI it depends on the policy. Some of my clients do underwriters do not have a problem, some want my fees on payroll. For those that need the payroll accountability, I break out my labor cost at industry standard and the rest is equipment rental.


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## juststumps

the IRS has come down hard on the contractor - employee thing lately....this is from their site,, hope it helps your case... glad yor doing better..

Independent Contractors vs. Employees 

Before you can determine how to treat payments you make for services, you must first know the business relationship that exists between you and the person performing the services. The person performing the services may be -

An independent contractor 
A common-law employee 
A statutory employee 
A statutory nonemployee 

In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered.

It is critical that you, the employer, correctly determine whether the individuals providing services are employees or independent contractors. Generally, you must withhold income taxes, withhold and pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, and pay unemployment tax on wages paid to an employee. You do not generally have to withhold or pay any taxes on payments to independent contractors.

Caution: If you incorrectly classify an employee as an independent contractor, you can be held liable for employment taxes for that worker, plus a penalty.

Who is an Independent Contractor?
A general rule is that you, the payer, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work done by an independent contractor, and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result.

Example: Vera Elm, an electrician, submitted a job estimate to a housing complex for electrical work at $16 per hour for 400 hours. She is to receive $1,280 every 2 weeks for the next 10 weeks. This is not considered payment by the hour. Even if she works more or less than 400 hours to complete the work, Vera Elm will receive $6,400. She also performs additional electrical installations under contracts with other companies, that she obtained through advertisements. Vera is an independent contractor. 

How should I report payments made to independent contractors?

You may be required to file information returns to report certain types of payments made to independent contractors during the year. For example, you must file Form 1099-MISC, Miscellaneous Income, to report payments of $600 or more to persons not treated as employees (e.g. independent contractors) for services performed for your trade or business. For details about filing Form 1099 and for information about required electronic or magnetic media filing, refer to information returns.

Who is a Common-Law Employee (Employee)?
Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that you have the right to control the details of how the services are performed.

To determine whether an individual is an employee or independent contractor under the common law, the relationship of the worker and the business must be examined. All evidence of control and independence must be considered. In an employee-independent contractor determination, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and degree of independence must be considered.

Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories: behavioral control, financial control, and the type of relationship of the parties. Refer to Publication 15-A, Employer's Supplemental Tax Guide for additional information. 


Who is an Employee?
A general rule is that anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done.

Example: Donna Lee is a salesperson employed on a full-time basis by Bob Blue, an auto dealer. She works 6 days a week, and is on duty in Bob's showroom on certain assigned days and times. She appraises trade-ins, but her appraisals are subject to the sales manager's approval. Lists of prospective customers belong to the dealer. She has to develop leads and report results to the sales manager. Because of her experience, she requires only minimal assistance in closing and financing sales and in other phases of her work. She is paid a commission and is eligible for prizes and bonuses offered by Bob. Bob also pays the cost of health insurance and group-term life insurance for Donna. Donna is an employee of Bob Blue.

Statutory Employees
If workers are independent contractors under the common law rules, such workers may nevertheless be treated as employees by statute ( statutory employees ) for certain employment tax purposes if they fall within any one of the following four categories and meet the three conditions described under Social security and Medicare taxes , below.

A driver who distributes beverages (other than milk) or meat, vegetable, fruit, or bakery products; or who picks up and delivers laundry or dry cleaning, if the driver is your agent or is paid on commission. 
A full-time life insurance sales agent whose principal business activity is selling life insurance or annuity contracts, or both, primarily for one life insurance company. 
An individual who works at home on materials or goods that you supply and that must be returned to you or to a person you name, if you also furnish specifications for the work to be done. 
A full-time traveling or city salesperson who works on your behalf and turns in orders to you from wholesalers, retailers, contractors, or operators of hotels, restaurants, or other similar establishments. The goods sold must be merchandise for resale or supplies for use in the buyer s business operation. The work performed for you must be the salesperson s principal business activity. Refer to the Salesperson section located in Publication 15-A, Employer s Supplemental Tax Guide for additional information. 
Statutory Nonemployees
There are two categories of statutory nonemployees: direct sellers and licensed real estate agents. They are treated as self-employed for all Federal tax purposes, including income and employment taxes, if:

Substantially all payments for their services as direct sellers or real estate agents are directly related to sales or other output, rather than to the number of hours worked and 
Their services are performed under a written contract providing that they will not be treated as employees for Federal tax purposes. 
Refer to information on Direct Sellers located in Publication 15-A, Employer s Supplemental Tax Guide for additional information. 

Misclassification of Employees

Consequences of treating an employee as an independent contractor. If you classify an employee as an independent contractor and you have no reasonable basis for doing so, you may be held liable for employment taxes for that worker. See Internal Revenue Code section 3509 for additional information. 

References/Related Topics

Worker Classification Webcast
A critical issue for all businesses is properly classifying workers as employees or independent contractors. The IRS’s archived Tax Talk Today Webcast, “What’s Hot in Employment Taxes: Independent Contractor or Employee?”, focuses exclusively on worker classification issues.
Tax Topic 762 Basic Information
To determine whether a worker is an independent contractor or an employee, you must examine the relationship between the worker and the business. All evidence of control and independence in this relationship should be considered. The facts that provide this evidence fall into three categories Behavioral Control, Financial Control, and the Type of Relationship itself.
Publication 1976, Section 530 Employment Tax Relief Requirements (PDF)
Section 530 provides businesses with relief from Federal employment tax obligations if certain requirements are met.
IRS Internal Training: Employee/Independent Contractor (PDF)
This manual provides you with the tools to make correct determinations of worker classifications. It discusses facts that may indicate the existence of an independent contractor or an employer-employee relationship. This training manual is a guide and is not legally binding. If you would like the IRS to make the determination of worker status, please file IRS Form SS-8. 
Form SS-8 (PDF)
Determination of Worker Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding
Publication 15-A 
The Employer's Supplemental Tax Guide has detailed guidance including information for specific industries.
Publication 15-B
The Employer’s Tax Guide to Fringe Benefits supplements Circular E (Pub. 15), Employer's Tax Guide, and Publication 15-A, Employer's Supplemental Tax Guide. It contains specialized and detailed information on the employment tax treatment of fringe benefits.
Businesses with Employees
Hiring Employees
Online Classroom, Lesson 6 - What you need to know about federal taxes when hiring employees/contractors
Distinguishing Between Self-Employed Individuals and Independent Contractors


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## 3yrclimberARK

Gruesome!!!! I caught one to the chest and neck but it barely scratched me. It scared the hell out of me and I wasn't 15ft off the ground. You are one hard SOB. I wish you the best and hope you get to feeling better.


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## sharkfin12us

*man that took saw to your face*

1st want to say thank god you are alive and i know things seem bad but could have been worse.I appreciate you posting your story.I own my own business and try to be extremely careful.I have had some small cuts to my leg and I cut my forearm on meaty side with chain saw got 35 stiches happened so fast.I was standing in tree maybe 20 feet tall standing in crotch.Home owner was maybe 10 feet from me watching so i think i was trying to get it done and was distracted.He had pavers big deal i should have let the branch fall or tied it off.Instead of using 2 hands on saw as i was cutting i was cutting with one hand and other hand i was going to catch branch. It was maybe 3" diameter.I had saw gunning and it was cutting and caught and forced saw into my arm.I had to pay out of pocket.Plastic surgeon wanted 3900.I told nurse for 30 minutes i thought 2500 was more reasonalbe so she talked to doctor and i payed 100 month till it was done.Getting back to gentleman with cut face.Hope things get better for you.This can happen to any one of us.God speed


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## country boy

Just want to say i feel horible for what you must be going through I truly hope everything will work out And i also wanted to add that i am glad that you added pics makes realize just how quick something like that can happen . I am just a firewood cutter but your pics and story makes me think a whole lot clearer now of just how dangerous a chainsaw can be . Thanks for sharing and i wish you the best of luck


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## LNG24

fpyontek said:


> Monkeyman, I hope you are able to put your life back in order after such a terrible accident and subsequent ordeal. You do need a competent attorney who practices Workman's Compensation law.
> 
> 
> 
> Working "under the table" does not change the fact that you were actually working for your this guy when the accident occurred. Whether you were working as an employee or as a sub-contractor is irrelevant, you should be entitled to Workman's Compensation coverage.
> 
> I can only state what I know to be true about Workman's Compensation Insurance in New Jersey. However, I can assume that WC works similarly in New York.
> * New Jersey law requires employers to carry WC insurance.
> * I am required to pay additional premiums on any sub-contractor who fails to produce proof of carrying WC insurance himself (a certificate of insurance) by the time of my insurance policy audit.
> 
> As a sub-contractor It doesn't matter how he pays you, (cash or check) he is required to report those payments to his WC auditor. Therefore, in New Jersey at least, you should be entitled to WC coverage because additional premiums were paid on the amount paid to you.
> 
> Best Wishes, Fred.




It is the same in NY. I had a case where I paid for a railing to be installed on a job we were doing. Check was made out to a company name, but the company name was the same as the person only add welding afterwards. ie: Bill Smith Welding. WC tried to charge me for him on my WC policy. I had to fight like hell to keep it off. 

However, though they penilize you for not reporting a worker, dose'nt mean they will pay for him if he is injured. Kind of a loophole for them. 



Kneejerk Bombas said:


> The contractor doesn't pay WC on sub-contractors, that I know of, but it is his responsibility to make sure he is insured. Just like it's the homeowner's responsibility to make sure the contractor is insured.
> WC is so important.
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear of your accident and hope for the best to you and your family during your recovery.




A point I didn't think of, maybe you neither. If your boss wasn't covering you like he should have been and you didn't have WC, the homeowner is responsible. A good Attorney will pick up on that. If you don't have one, where are you located?


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## LNG24

Monkeyman,

When did this happen and when did you go back to work?


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## LNG24

Yes, I agree. Working without Workers Comp is a big gamble. And I also know that WC will penalize you if you don't collect the certificates of the subs, but I don't know and therefore can not say whether or not that policy's main benefit to a GC is that he himself can not get sued by the worker or sub. However, I do know as a FACT that at least here in NY. A Homeowner should always require a WC policy and depending on the length of work, be added to the policy so that if the policy holder lets it default, the owner gets notice. As a Sub, I have always had to add my CG as additional insured until the project was complete. Same with the towns. The Main Reason for this is so they can not get sued. 

If someone is injured on my property, They can sue me whether I invited them there or not. So yes, this guy can sue the Homeowner and the GC (his boss). He should sue everyone he can. I am not sure if the court proceeding he already had was for Workers Comp or a Liability Lawsuit against the employer. 

Honestly, and this is why I asked HOW LONG AGO this happened, it will take years for this to get into court. WC on the other hand likes to have a hearing and denies the claims ASAP. 

I guess we need more info, but what he needs is a Good Attorney representing him. All of our advice is for naught without one. 

If anyone feels like learning from others mistakes, and I think that is the purpose of this thread, that it should be Not to Operate without a WC policy. Also, as others have posted, there is a fine line between a Sub Contractor and an Employee. The Tax Man loves this line, it will be more difficult to determine the line in a court of law though. The best way to determine a Sub vs Employee...a WC Policy given to you by the sub with you added as additional insured. If you don't have this, then put them on your policy.


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## jmcguiretree

check out my past post and you will see article from local paper!!


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## jmcguiretree

***FYI *** I meet this fellow last month and I do know of the contractor that he was working for.This contractor is the biggest loser in the area in the tree buisness .HE IS NO GOOD .He doesn't pay the workes and screws old people by having them sign contracts .He gets people to pay for the work to be done before it is even done and will not come back till next year....total B.S............:censored:


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## LNG24

here is the post with the article:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=42342


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## monkeymanjoe

*Happy Holidays everyone.*

Thanks for all the kind words. I hope that this will help everyone realize just how dangerous this kind of work is. We don't just sit at a desk crossing t's and dotting i's.
I did get denied for WC. That really sucks. I am appealing it. I don't care what anyone says, both myself and the gentleman I was working for know that I was his employee. I just started my own business 6 months before. I didn't have enough work to quit. I worked for him FULL TIME during the week. I did my own on the weekends. I was not allowed to bring my truck or car to the job because I had my signs on them. I was not allowed to hand out my business cards. If I was a sub, wouldn't I be able to do that. If I was a sub I would also have been making A HELL of alot more than he was paying me. Yes he was paying me under the table and that was stupid of me. I know that. But we all make mistakes. This was a guy that I had worked for for many years. I knew how slimy he was, but we all at one time or another think nothing is going to happen. 
I just want him to man up. Tell the truth already. Be a man of his word. Is that too much to ask? I know this isn't a black and white case, but if he would be honest than everyone would know the truth..
And thank you to jmcguiretree for saying what I couldn't about him.


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## sharkfin12us

*monkeymanjoe*



monkeymanjoe said:


> Thanks for all the kind words. I hope that this will help everyone realize just how dangerous this kind of work is. We don't just sit at a desk crossing t's and dotting i's.
> I did get denied for WC. That really sucks. I am appealing it. I don't care what anyone says, both myself and the gentleman I was working for know that I was his employee. I just started my own business 6 months before. I didn't have enough work to quit. I worked for him FULL TIME during the week. I did my own on the weekends. I was not allowed to bring my truck or car to the job because I had my signs on them. I was not allowed to hand out my business cards. If I was a sub, wouldn't I be able to do that. If I was a sub I would also have been making A HELL of alot more than he was paying me. Yes he was paying me under the table and that was stupid of me. I know that. But we all make mistakes. This was a guy that I had worked for for many years. I knew how slimy he was, but we all at one time or another think nothing is going to happen.
> I just want him to man up. Tell the truth already. Be a man of his word. Is that too much to ask? I know this isn't a black and white case, but if he would be honest than everyone would know the truth..
> And thank you to jmcguiretree for saying what I couldn't about him.



Just wanted to say just keep what your doing looking forward,in time I think your life will start to take shape the way you want it to.Some times the hardest times in your life make you the strongest after.I hope you stay in the business or find something you like to do and you will do well in.Thanks for your inspiration.Terence


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## 777ER

Ouch that looks nasty 

Glad you were able to get yourself on the ground before you blacked out. Much worse things could have happened but you survived and lived to tell the story about it. 
Glad to see you're back to work on what you like to do and not something you don't like to do.

I worked for my dad's office. He's a dentist that owns his own pratice with at least 4 other dentist working for him...to top it off, my dad does work on patients (mostly big cases) and runs the dental side of the office (lab work, equipment selections, etc) while the office manager deals with patients and insurance side. 
A long time ago for 2 summers when I was on summer break from college. He offered me a temp job until I got my license to work on big jets at the airline I work for now. 

Used to enter at least 4,000 patients medical files into data such as medical warnings, allergies, health history..etc. There was this one case I came upon to...a patient got almost half of her lower face ripped off by a pit bull and the lower left jaw had to be reconstructed by surgeons (dad was called to the hositpal to assist). 
Looking at the x-rays and photos of it, it looked similar to your damage with the roots being exposed on the upper left jaw.
A few years later after plastic surgey and dental work, she's happy to be where she's at now. You couldn't even tell unless you were closer than a few feet to look for the tell-tale sign of damage in that area.
As for the pain, it's very minimal last I heard and she takes asprin once in a while.

Hope you get a speedy recovery and everything will be back to normal and that lowlife boss will pay up as promised. I hate when people pull that type of crap...


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## Zero Gravity

Monkeymanjoe

Thank you for the detailed account of you accident. It reminds all of us how dangerous working with chainsaws is. After reading your post I went outside to my garage and removed the chain that I was practicing filing on. I got pretty good by the end, but each cutter was a different length. Now that I am confident with my filing abilities I will start with a new chain. The old chain was a liability that could have lead to kick back accident. The chain is in three pieces now, via the cutting torch. I am surprised to say that I am happy my saw in only available with a .325, .050 narrow kerf low kick back chain. If I could get chisel tooth I would be foolish enough to get one. Take care of your recovery and get all of the reconstructive surgery you need. Don’t worry about the cost until your healed. Your providers will help anyone willing to help themselves.
ZG


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## Ljute

Funny this post was resurrected from almost one year ago. 

First time I'd seen it though. I hope it healed up real good. :monkey:


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## (WLL)

Ljute said:


> Funny this post was resurrected from almost one year ago.


i love when old post are resurrected


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## (WLL)

how about an update on your status monkeyman. merry x-mas!!


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## ozarktreeman

WOW!
If thay dont make you think twice about your career choices.
I have lost half my left index finger,cracked my right elbow,both rotater cuffs bad.normal wear and tear and pain that goes with the terratory.
Could probaly deal with arm or leg loss; god forbid that should happen; And still get back at it in some form or another. 

But a saw to the face.I think that would be the end for me.

props man wish you all the best.know it,s been a while now. Hope you had good recovery and recouped some sort of pay for hosp bills.


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## Normsworld

*Are owners covered by WC ?*

I'm self employed and was told by my insurance guy that W C only covers my employees but not me . Is this true ? I work alone ( doing home improvements ). Also Monkeyman , be careful what you post on the web . It can come back to bite you . A guy got rear ended on a motorcycle and his attorneys were real pissed when he posted on motorcycle site . Godspeed in your recovery .


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## Tree Machine

Normsworld said:


> I'm self employed and was told by my insurance guy that W C only covers my employees but not me . Is this true ?


This is true. Workman's Comp is for workers. The insurance that offers YOU compensation in the case of a major injury is called disability insurance.

If your business is incorporated, you are an employee of the corporation and your corporation can take out workman's comp insurance for it's sole worker (you). However, you, as the sole person working for the corporation (ie President) you are free to choose whether or not you wish to have workman's comp on yourself. You may choose WC or disability, it is up to you as you are the sole decision maker regarding yourself.

As a corporation, you can sign up for a corporate health plan, even though the only person in the corporation is you. Your corporation should also have liability insurance, along with that health insurance. The disability insurance is up to you whether or not you want to pay for that. Add to that the insurance on you vehicle / equipment and you have a minimum of three policies to run your tree service and legitimately have yourself covered in the case of an unfortunate event.

If you choose to run your own business without adequate insurances, your overhead costs are lower, but your assumed risk is higher.

Regarding suing people, like the homeowner, you will have to in the future look back on this and ask did they have any legitimate part in your accident, or are you suing them just because the law allows it? Put yourself in their shoes before taking the huge step of filing suit. If you lose the case, you pay all attorney costs and dig your hole deeper.


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## Tree Machine

I'm not advising one way or the other, just that all actions have potential consequences that may not work out the way you intend.

You've unquestionably had endless time to think deeply on this. Consider that some of the posters here have legitimate information to consider, and others have emotionally charged opinion. Sort out which is which before choosing an action.


In looking at both your side and the general contractor's side, with an unbiassed view, I see he offered you employment for many years, you learned the business on his dime. That's an employee/employer relationship.

You decided to go out on your own, that is, to compete with him in his own market. He, in turn, offers you jobs to keep you busy until you can fully sustain yourself on your own.

Call him scumbag, but his biggest mistake was that he didn't tell you farewell, good luck, you are on your own. Instead he kicks you down work. Regardless of what he was paying you, when you agreed to do the job, you as a subcontractor negotiate that term and either do the job, or not do the job. You make the choice to do the job, or walk away from it, there is no "If I was truly a sub he woulda been paying me more." A business owner is in business to make a profit, not see that his new competition is making a profit.

I'm not meaning to be harsh. I have truly been on both sides of this fence. When you go independent, this places you in a position of new responsibility, new choices and new decisions. You choose who you work for, you choose your gear, you choose your insurances and on and on and on. In becoming independent and taking on these responsibilities, you take on both the good and the bad. I work both as a business owner and as a subcontractor to other tree companies. Either way, I assume the responsibility as stated on page one of the ANSI Z133 manual for the treecare industry, which, if you're going to sue anyone, this will be referenced as an industry standard.


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## Tree Machine

Again, I am greatly sorry about your accident. I can empathize in that I had an on-site accident that nearly took my life, and left me out of work for 8 months.

My best advice is to not carry hate or hostility, let it go, learn and move on. You have a long life and career ahead of you and spitefulness can be the enemy within.

As far as going after another person's assets and livelihood, that one is individually yours, I can in no way advise, only to say that you must live with the choices you make.

I truly wish you the best in your recovery.

Much love.


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## 046

WOW... what an old scary thread!!!


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## Normsworld

Thanks Tree Machine for clearing up the Workers Comp Info . I do have the liability , health , commercial truck and a big umbrella policy , but no disability ins . Sure could a used it last Dec . 23 .Using a Tablesaw the laminate flooring kicked back and rode the blade out which caused me to knock off 2 fingers ! Over a week in the hospital but none of the fingers lived . A year ago today I was still in the hospital . Had to go to finish the job the day after getting out the hospital . If you ain't got no disability ins. your just outa work and tons of unexpected bills . Now I'm working but not at the capacity where I can easily afford the Comp.! 23 years of selfemployed bliss then one nite your number comes up . If you work with your hands please insure them and if you got employees you got NO CHOICE !! Peace , love and lot's of prosperity in "09" !


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## November Wolf

Very sad story. Hope it ended out well for you monkeyman.


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## DAVID451

monkeymanjoe said:


> I have done alot of pretty dangerous trees and walked away thinking "thank God I made it". I had a tree to top back in January of this year, it was only about 40ft. I figured that it wasn't going to be anything to "hairy". I can't remember too much of that day.., but what I do remember was the saw kicking back and then a terrible pain in my face. I remember talking myself down. As soon as I hit the ground I was out. I woke up 2 days later in ICU. I was put in an induced coma because of the pain. The surgeon lost count at 300 stitches. I have a steel plate in my left side of my face. I cut all my teeth so that now the roots are exposed.
> The worst thing is that the owner of the company that I was working for said "Joe., who?" He was paying me under the table. I have been working for this guy on and off for about 10 years. But when I had the accident he said that I was an independent contractor. At this time I had been with him about 8 months. The accident happened on January 9th and at the end of January I receives a 1099 from the company I was working for.
> I was in the hospital for 10 days and my former employer never once called or showed up to see me. Don't get me wrong he was there the day it happened. (This is what I was told). He sat out in the waiting room with my family. He told my fiance that he was going to pay for our wedding, that he would bring me back as a foreman and that he would help us with the mortgage payments for a while. But we are still not married, I had to find a new full time job and we are behind in the mortgage payments because I was out of work for 6 months.
> He waited at the hospital till OSHA came, when they were done questioning him and his other employees he left to go play bingo at the casino.
> I obtained an attorney and filed a claim with workers comp. I got denied. Because I own my own company and I was using my own chainsaw the day of the accident. The judge also said that because my boss was not there to supervise me and to see the finished work that meant that I was not an employee.
> Well first of all, I just started my own company and there was no way for me to stop working full time. I did my thing on the weekends. Secondly how many of you men use your own chainsaws working for someone else.? Lastly does the owner of a tree company always come to the job site and sit there till the job is done?
> I am appealing the decision. But until then I have to deal with the pain from my teeth because I don't have the money to pay to have them fixed. I am in the Dr's. office about once a month because my mouth is infected and because of the pain.
> I am sorry for rambling on. I just needed to vent. Is there anyone else who has dealt a situation like this? If so feel free to contact me. I would like to hear someone say that they had a happy ending in a similar situation.
> Thanks for listening.
> Donations would be greatly appreciated.
> I have attached 2 photos. They are not for the weak at heart.



I am fairly new to this but disturbed by the extent of one-off accidents like this. Is there no equipment that protects the face and neck for when this happens. I imagine that my saw would munch right through my mesh visor. I expect and injury of this nature would finish most people.


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## GNAR13

DAVID451 said:


> Is there no equipment that protects the face and neck for when this happens.



Two hands on the saw with a firm grip


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## DAVID451

GNAR13 said:


> Two hands on the saw with a firm grip



I dont know where this guy went wrong or if he was just unlucky, been cutting for only 4 years but never had a kickback "yet " that frightned me. 

Are you saying that you should be able to hold most kickbacks, I have a 20inch bar on a 038av and I doubt I could hold it, but I try to keep my face away and work safely, but the tip has caught up on a couple of occasions. It looks as though the chain was still running when it hit his face so something went wrong.

I cut on my own as well so I am more careful than most, I hope.


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## GNAR13

all i was saying was that two hands on the saw w/ a firm grip is the best practice. a kickback happens way to fast and with too much force to stop it, but with two hands at least your front hand/arm can help determine the arc/path of the saw (but keep your face out the way anyway). also, that front hand is what hits the chain brake. this statement was mostly about people using top-handle saws one-handed.


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## DAVID451

GNAR13 said:


> all i was saying was that two hands on the saw w/ a firm grip is the best practice. a kickback happens way to fast and with too much force to stop it, but with two hands at least your front hand/arm can help determine the arc/path of the saw (but keep your face out the way anyway). also, that front hand is what hits the chain brake. this statement was mostly about people using top-handle saws one-handed.



Totally agree


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## arbor pro

DAVID451 said:


> I dont know where this guy went wrong or if he was just unlucky, been cutting for only 4 years but never had a kickback "yet " that frightned me.
> 
> Are you saying that you should be able to hold most kickbacks, I have a 20inch bar on a 038av and I doubt I could hold it, but I try to keep my face away and work safely, but the tip has caught up on a couple of occasions. It looks as though the chain was still running when it hit his face so something went wrong.
> 
> I cut on my own as well so I am more careful than most, I hope.



Not to kick the guy when he's down but, there were at least four things he did wrong from my take on the situation:

1) rakers filed down too far making the chain prone to kickback
2) cutting at face level in direct line with the kickback of the bar - the first rule of chainsaw positioning is to hold the saw where a kick back would rotate the bar and chain away from the body rather than into it.
3) cutting one-handed - I'm guilty of this like everyone else but, I would never cut one-handed at face-level. If I have to cut one-handed, it is definitely in a position where kickback won't rotate the bar and chain back into my body.
4) cutting without a helmet and face shield - a mesh visor might not stop a chain but, it would likely provide better protection than nothing at all and would likely have decreased the extent of injury in this case.

It makes me wonder if the helmet manufacturers have tested the ability of the mesh face screens to stop a rotating chain? Anybody know if it would have made a difference in this case?


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## jmcguiretree

The point of the original post was to tell everyone that we work in a dangerous field. Lets learn from went wrong and try to take something good from someone's mistakes.The photos should be printed and hung up in every truck we work from as a daily reminder as to what can .The loser that he was working for should have done more than turn his back on him, but I guess that is part of what makes him one. With that said it still does not take away all the other facts to this accident.Lets ALL learn from this,share this with people you work with and show them the photos.


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## stackwood

*Yep*



OLD CHIPMONK said:


> Sorry you got injured & hope you make out on appeal ! According to IRS the only way a worker can be considered a SUB-CONTRACTOR : If your employer DOCUMENTS that you carry your own LIABILITY INSURANCE & WORKERS COMPENSATION ! Hire a good attorney , on contingency fee , if possible & see where it leads ! Once again GOOD LUCK !



Irs has 10 points that will determine if your an employee or contractor.

Yyou need to meet 3 to be considered a employee opposed to a contractor , Go to the dept of labor and file a claim , they will assign a case worker who will pick your employer apart . #1 did your boss wright checks to you or your company? or did he pay you cash ? Did your boss have a schedual that you worked by. , did youu have a contract with him? If you had your own insurance was he named an additional insured? Did he ever pprovide you with tools other then your chain saw? If ther is no signed contract you imo have a good chance with the dept of labor.


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## arbor pro

The only thing that stinks about this whole situation is that it was likely a mutual agreement between the 'employer' and 'employee' that the work arrangement be an 'off the books' cash deal and, along with that, both parties likely knew that there was no work comp insurance in place in case of an injury. 

I don't feel that the 'employer' in this situation should have been paying this guy under the table. He should have had this fellow on the payroll and covered under his insurance. That said, if the 'employee' knew that he wasn't insured for an injury, he could have made the choice to not work for this guy. If he knowingly agreed to work without insurance, IMO, he does not have the moral right to sue. Yes, perhaps our current 'sue-happy' legal system will allow him to sue for damages but, as a matter of principle, if the 'employee' agrees to work for cash so he can put more bling in his pocket at the end of the day, he is accepting the risk that goes along with it.

Ever heard of the saying, 'you can't have your cake and eat it too'...? Well, you can't work for someone off the books and expect to get all the rights and priviledges of a regular employee. The employee can't just play dumb and say, "Well, I didn't know..." Neither can the employer.

It sure sounds to me like there are a bunch of sue happy folks on this site. I chalk this up to a lesson learned that both students will likely never forget. If you're not a legitimate sub-contractor, you need to be on the books and insured. Case closed.


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## Tree Machine

ArborPro, you put that in very realistic terms. Here we have a mutual agreement where both sides know the risks, and if all goes according to plan, no big deal. A former employer is helping out a 'trained apprentice' (so to speak) by kicking him down some jobs until he can run on his own. But then the truly awful happens.

Now the person who has employed you, invested in you, and is now supporting you to become his own competition is being faced with a life-changing situation, caused by someone else's mistake. This is more than having the cake and eating it too. This is biting the hand that's fed you.

I'm trying to see both sides. I have a deep compassion for those in our industry who've suffered injury. But, if you've independently caused the injury to yourself, you really need to look at the moral high road. The injury was not caused to the injured by someone else. There is no 'victim' here, just someone who caused injury to their own self.

We all who chose to be self-employed will eventually injure ourselves. If we get hurt real bad and chose not to have ourselves insured, then that was the risk we chose to run with and we are personally responsible for those choices and actions. We're adults. As hard as it might be to get through this difficult time, you will get through it. You make a mess, you clean it up. If the injured really needs help, help is out there for the asking, but suing someone for something that was 100% your fault, that is NOT the moral high road and you'll have to live the rest of your life knowing you took the position of 'entitlement' to someone else's life. This is a very serious decision with long-term implications. 

I'm honestly hoping to be helpful here with a true-to-life viewpoint, not come to bat for one side or the other or point fingers.


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## Philbert

Normsworld said:


> I'm self employed and was told by my insurance guy that W C only covers my employees but not me . Is this true ?



WC is different in every state. Generally, you CAN include yourself (as the owner, manager, etc.) IF you include yourself in the policy. That means you list yourself as an employee, and pay the premium for all of your hours worked.

To the IRS, I am the 'sole employee of a corporation that I happen to own all the stock in'. I carry a WC policy on myself, that also protects me driving back and forth to jobs from my primary place of business - my home office. I think that it is a good value.

Up until a few years ago, I was required to pay unemployment insurance on myself as well, but they finally allowed me to elect out of that.

Best to talk to someone in your state.

Philbert


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## arbor pro

Tree Machine said:


> ArborPro, you put that in very realistic terms.... This is biting the hand that's fed you.... I'm trying to see both sides. I have a deep compassion for those in our industry who've suffered injury... I'm honestly hoping to be helpful here with a true-to-life viewpoint, not come to bat for one side or the other or point fingers.



:agree2:

I'm in a situation where, as a part-time tree service, I could use some part-time help a few hours a week if even that - just for bigger rigging jobs. Through my full-time job, I have a couple of associates who have offered to help me out on a cash basis. We all have health care through our full-time jobs and, for the few hours a year that I actually would need help, it's hard to justify the cost of a work comp policy. There's a minimum fee no matter what your annual payroll is and there's no way I'd even come close to the payroll limit on the most basic work comp policy I could buy.

We've discussed whether we could do it as a contractor/sub-contractor relationship. We've discussed about every way possible. That said, I won't do it unless its on the books and with work comp in place for the very reasons discussed in this thread. My help would be working on my schedule using my equipment. Legally, they would be an employee and I could end up liable if they got hurt. Sure, our primary work insurance would probably cover most of the cost of an injury but, who's going to pay the portion that isn't covered? And, what if someone gets permanantly disabled? 

I showed this thread and the pictures of the injury to the guys. They agree - we're going to do it 'on the table' or not at all.


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## Rickytree

Eh Monkeymanjoe! Just wondering how all is going? Was looking around the site and found this thread. In Canada if the employer dictates when the job is to be done(like go do this today) you are a employee. Hope everything is working out for you and your recovery.


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## stackwood

*Same in ct*



Rickytree said:


> Eh Monkeymanjoe! Just wondering how all is going? Was looking around the site and found this thread. In Canada if the employer dictates when the job is to be done(like go do this today) you are a employee. Hope everything is working out for you and your recovery.



In Ct (usa) its the same.

I had "contractors" who I charged back for faulty work , they went to dept of labor and won .based on I provided the work schedual and I set the hours and I paid them , 1099 means nothing . If he had a contract and working under his company name the employer might have a case , maybe. He should be compensated for his injuries.


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## Rickytree

Monkeymanjoe Just curious how things are with you. Hope all is well!


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## adforester

*kickback*

Can someone tell me if they have ever stopped a kickback with the safety bar? Certainly it is a needed feature but seems like your elbow would give quicker than the wrist. The safety bar just doesn't seem like you should trust it. is this correct? I guess there's no part of a saw to trust besides the handle anyway.


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## tree md

adforester said:


> Can someone tell me if they have ever stopped a kickback with the safety bar? Certainly it is a needed feature but seems like your elbow would give quicker than the wrist. The safety bar just doesn't seem like you should trust it. is this correct? I guess there's no part of a saw to trust besides the handle anyway.



Simple solution is to position yourself where you are not cutting at face or neck level. I've never had my climbing saw kickback on me but I wouldn't want it right in my face if it did so.


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## Philbert

adforester said:


> Can someone tell me if they have ever stopped a kickback with the safety bar? Certainly it is a needed feature but seems like your elbow would give quicker than the wrist. The safety bar just doesn't seem like you should trust it. is this correct? I guess there's no part of a saw to trust besides the handle anyway.



"Safety bar" = chain brake? The chain brake just stops the chain from turning, it doesn't stop the bar from kicking back at you.

But if the chain brake trips you get hit (if you get hit) by a small, sharp object in a kickback event, instead of 30 to 40 of them moving around the bar at 12,000 RPM.

Good cutting practice is to keep the left elbow locked, so that it does not give in this type of situation.

Philbert


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## ntsarborist

wow man sorry to hear about that. that is a really messed up picture. lifes lessons


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## treemandan

Rickytree said:


> Monkeymanjoe Just curious how things are with you. Hope all is well!



Yeah, its kinda scary not knowing. It truly is a bad situation.


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## Rickytree

He's back in action! He's doing good I hear!


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## treebreeginning

Rickytree said:


> He's back in action! He's doing good I hear!



dayyyuuuummm


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## treebreeginning

*wat*



Rickytree said:


> He's back in action! He's doing good I hear!



dayyyuuuummm


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## Blakesmaster

This thread seems to get brought up quite a bit. Every time I come across it I read it through. Joe is a good guy, bad to the bone and from the old school. Wish he would come back and post some but I have no idea how to get ahold of him and make him aware of his infamy. I met him about 2 years after this incident when he took down a monster white pine in a cemetery for my old boss. His face is scarred up but he doesn't look much worse than the majority of salty tree guys I've met. Last I knew his business was still trucking along and he was no longer climbing for his old, very shady boss. I wish him the best of luck and hope to meet him again someday.


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## treeman75

This is the first time seeing this thread. Its stories like this that makes me really focus on what I'm doing whether its cutting or chipping. When I'm cutting trees out of chain length fence it seems no matter how careful you are you still hit the fence and get a kick back.


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## jmcguiretree

Good to see people are still reading old sh!t.Read it today, read it tommorow,and share it with someone the next day.........................


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## bigbadbob

The top handle saws scare me!!!!!


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## Treefarmer85

i cut with one hand! be a man! 066 with 60" bar in both hands running through the woods like the rd runner! BEEP BEEP!!!!!


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## SpiralAcacia

Treefarmer85 said:


> i cut with one hand! be a man! 066 with 60" bar in both hands running through the woods like the rd runner! BEEP BEEP!!!!!



Well, sure is true some people not being cautious enough, ARE going to be cutting w/one hand, or one leg , or maybe half a head !! No kidding.
I know you're joking Treefarmer85, where are you going to find two trees both with trunks needing a 60" bar, only arms length apart ??!

Anyway it's good to hear the man here is doing better and is capable of doing what he likes doing. Character prevails !! Good news. 

PPE & common sense to us all...

SA


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## lees trees

Yea! glad he's doeing well.


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## Treetom

How often I think of monkeymanjoe when I'm running that 2-hunge. Hope yer doing well, joe.


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## Zero Gravity

This is still a very relevant thread. Everybody should read it once a year. I have come close several times, but it has always been with over eager helpers. I would turn around and there would be a helpers arm in the saw path. It really makes me think about proper running saws and methods. I never blip the throttle between cuts and I make sure the idle is set correctly. These two behaviors have prevented similar injuries.
ZG


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## pdqdl

I just make damn sure that my hand will hit the chain brake before the chain gets to me. Sometimes working close and to the left, it's easy to have that 200t safety bar above your left hand. 

Don't do it!

BTW, many years ago I had a lawn worker carved up in the face much like this original post. _He was running a 24" bar on a big powerful saw without a chain brake right next to a chainlink fence_. Talk about a recipe for disaster!

(in my defense, I told him to take the little Stihl 009 to do that job; not the Pioneer farm saw with the 24" bar. The assignment was to cut the weed trees out of the fence fabric. Being an 18 year old puppy, he wanted to take the big manly saw to do big manly work, so he didn't follow my instructions.)


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## Zero Gravity

Fences!!! good point
ZG


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## freeweight

damn ,you know the weird thing is i was gonna post a thread about somthing out climber told/showed me the other day

guy i went to school with had this very thng happen bout two weeks ago it caught himabout 3in about the left canine went almost to the botom right canine ,terrible how a chain rips 

dont know alot of info will try and get the pic


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## WillyStDruid

Things I learned from this thread:

1. Never mess with the rakers on a topping saw.

2. Never cut above your head or near your head.

3. Whether your a "sub", run your own business or you're an employee make sure you have some sort of insurance. Captain Obvious: Tree Work is Dangerous. Despite every safety precaution, accidents can happen. You need some sort of insurance to provide for yourself and your family if something bad happens.

There's no doubt that this guy would be viewed as an employee if scrutinized by the IRS. They have a checklist of 10 or so questions to determine Independent Contractor vs. Employee. If his boss gave him a time to show up to do this job, gave him any instruction on what to do for this job, or dictated an hourly rate of pay, this guy was an employee.

That aside, what if this accident happened at MonkeyMan's job? Most owner operated tree guys opt out of coverage for themselves when they get worker's comp. If you run your own show you absolutely must have a good life insurance policy and short and long term disability and at the very least a catastrophic health insurance policy on yourself. 

You should have it on anyone doing work for you too, just in case. Unless you can sleep at night knowing that your making money off people's backs who put their life on the line and are suffering financially because they got hurt on your job.


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## monkeymanjoe

*Happy holidays to all!*

I know its been a long time since I have been on this site, (I think it is because I don't want to remember that day). I would like to say hello to everyone, and wish everyone a very happy holiday! I am doing good and I hope everyone else is also.
For those of you who know the whole story about the "man" that I was working for I just want to let you know that he is still up to his no good, scheming ways. He is like an annoying, ugly cold sore that keeps coming back. Just when I start to forget all about him.... He's baaack! 
Shoot me a message.


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## sgt7546

Glad your here alive and well. Have a great holiday.


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## tbow388

*Healed*

Hope you are all healed up nicely.

Merry Christmas.


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## Ductape

I don't want to sound morbid, but I'm curious how things turned out? Lots of scarring, or lookin pretty much back to normal. Glad to hear you are well, and in good spirits.


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## Blakesmaster

monkeymanjoe said:


> I know its been a long time since I have been on this site, (I think it is because I don't want to remember that day). I would like to say hello to everyone, and wish everyone a very happy holiday! I am doing good and I hope everyone else is also.
> For those of you who know the whole story about the "man" that I was working for I just want to let you know that he is still up to his no good, scheming ways. He is like an annoying, ugly cold sore that keeps coming back. Just when I start to forget all about him.... He's baaack!
> Shoot me a message.



Good to hear you're doing well, Joe. I saw you know who once this year, that shiny, new 75' 4X4 Highranger he bought 3 or 4 years back looked like a rusted out pile already. Sad to see such beautiful equipment so abused. Stay safe out there and check in from time to time if you can.


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## Youngbuck20

First time seeing this thread. Hope things have gotten better. Merry Christmas to you and your family.


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## Normsworld

Happy to hear your on the mend , Merry Christmas .


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## 046

monkeymanjoe said:


> I know its been a long time since I have been on this site, (I think it is because I don't want to remember that day). I would like to say hello to everyone, and wish everyone a very happy holiday! I am doing good and I hope everyone else is also.
> For those of you who know the whole story about the "man" that I was working for I just want to let you know that he is still up to his no good, scheming ways. He is like an annoying, ugly cold sore that keeps coming back. Just when I start to forget all about him.... He's baaack!
> Shoot me a message.



so did workman comp pay for your injuries/med bills? this is a classical case of how different USA's system for taking care of injured/sick folks vs Canada's healthcare system. which costs a fraction of America's healthcare, while delivering higher quality results.


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## bassett

Zero Gravity said:


> This is still a very relevant thread. Everybody should read it once a year. I have come close several times, but it has always been with over eager helpers. I would turn around and there would be a helpers arm in the saw path. It really makes me think about proper running saws and methods. I never blip the throttle between cuts and I make sure the idle is set correctly. These two behaviors have prevented similar injuries.
> ZG



I'm glad I've come across it too. It's a sobering reminder of how dangerous this profession can be ...

This is a story I read last year:

Tree surgeon Tom Connelly almost beheaded himself with chainsaw | Mail Online


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