# New spur climber



## cairologger (Aug 10, 2011)

Good afernoon all,

I've been buying climbing gear for 6 mouths or so and tried my first tree yesterday and had a few problems I thought I would run by y'all. The tree was a pine 36" diam. , the first thing was my prusik on my flip line was to long and was right at the trunk, I had made it up myself and had some shorter ones with me( I made them with 3/8 yellow 7000 lbs cord. I made it into a loop joined with double fisherman knots) I installed a shorter one with a 6 coil prusik on the treemaster 3 strand flip line and I used a girth hitch at the carabiner. Is this prusik set up ok?????? The first problem when I got in the tree was my saddle felt like it wanted to to keep sliding down on me (is suspenders the answer to this?), my saddle is a Weaver extra wide back double d ring 6 lbs plus my other junk, second problem was my prusik would tighten up so tight on the flip line that I would have to take all the weight off of it and work it some to loosen it up before I could adjust the line. Is 4 coils rather than 6 the answer for this or a diffrent friction hitch? I'm 6'2" and 225# I did'nt thing I was puttting that much pressure on the hitch.

Thanks, Jake


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## Jeffsaw (Aug 10, 2011)

My only suggestion would be to start climbing on smaller diameter trees if possible. I can't comment on your set-up as mine is very different. Also, remember the saying "start low and slow".


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## tree md (Aug 11, 2011)

To tell the truth, on 36" trees I'm shooting a line in them and forgoing the lanyard altogether until it's time to make a cut...

Learn how to set your lines wisely, tend slack and friction and leave the lanyard alone. Set a line high and central, get loose and set yourself free,


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## tree md (Aug 11, 2011)

Oh, and on your question, girth hitched should be fine and I would imagine 6 coils is a bit much for a hip prussic, depending on what size cordage you're using. 5 coils or combination coils and braids is all I've ever used in any climbing system I have used in the past 20 years.


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## cairologger (Aug 11, 2011)

Thank's for the replies, I live in south ga and 36" trees are so common I guess I don't think of it as being large. Tonight i'm going to try a smaller one (24") and I read that an arms length is the proper distance to have your chest from the tree, is that about right??


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## cairologger (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm gonna give y'all an update on my climbing, last night I thought I would practice climbing a 24" diam. power pole that was down at the barn, I got my belt and flip line on ( the 4 coil prusik fixed the problem with the prusik locking up, I guess 6 was to many) spurs on, and jumped on that pole with my right spur (2 5/8 climb right) and it almost bounced off, that thing wound'nt go in 1/4". Are the new green colored poles that hard or do I need pole spikes to practice climbing this pole???????? Help me please. I'm going down in the woods tonight and find me a 24" pine and try that. What length do y'all use on big pines?


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## fearofpavement (Aug 13, 2011)

Poles and trees while of the same origin need different spikes. Pole spikes are short as they don't penetrate very far and for those thick barked pines the spikes you have should be fine. You can use pole spikes on some hard barked trees but in most cases trees require longer ones. So your experience on the pole is not unusual. You can climb a pole with longer spikes but not very well, and you can't really climb a soft bark tree with pole spikes. So you have to have the right tools for the job. If you want a pair of pole spikes for any reason, I have an extra pair (just the irons) that I would send to you for cheap.


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## Workboot (Aug 14, 2011)

You know you are potentially damaging these live trees with your gaffs right?


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## Hank Chinaski (Aug 14, 2011)

Workboot said:


> You know you are potentially damaging these live trees with your gaffs right?


 
wait till you see what he does to them with his saw and stump grinder...


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## cairologger (Aug 15, 2011)

fearofpavement said:


> Poles and trees while of the same origin need different spikes. Pole spikes are short as they don't penetrate very far and for those thick barked pines the spikes you have should be fine. You can use pole spikes on some hard barked trees but in most cases trees require longer ones. So your experience on the pole is not unusual. You can climb a pole with longer spikes but not very well, and you can't really climb a soft bark tree with pole spikes. So you have to have the right tools for the job. If you want a pair of pole spikes for any reason, I have an extra pair (just the irons) that I would send to you for cheap.


 
Thank's for the reply, I have ordered the pole gaffs from Treestuff. I'm having a hard time getting up on the spikes and moving up, it killing my legs. My wife was watching me and said she thought I was taking to large a step. How far should i be stepping????? I'm 6'2" 225lbs. She said me being 51 might have something to do with it! I thought I was in good shape, but the spurs are teaching me otherwise..


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## cairologger (Aug 15, 2011)

Workboot said:


> You know you are potentially damaging these live trees with your gaffs right?


 
Yep, only climbing trees marked for take down.


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## Workboot (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not trying to harp on you or anything but if you are just climbing for recreation anyways you should look into buying ascenders instead of gaffs. You will probably save some money (good ascenders are cheaper than good climbing spikes) and have more fun. Plus you won't have to worry about damaging the tree.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 16, 2011)

cairologger said:


> The first problem when I got in the tree was my saddle felt like it wanted to to keep sliding down on me (is suspenders the answer to this?), my saddle is a Weaver extra wide back double d ring 6 lbs plus my other junk



Hey jake, welcome to the site, always nice to see someone interested in climbing. I'm just going to hit the parts that looked like they didn't get answered. And remember, what works for one guy doesn't always work for another-we all have our own style and it just takes time to find what's comfortable for you.
The saddle slip, I usually set mine just above the belt on the pants, this seems to keep it above the hipbones and it gets cinched down pretty good, usually a notch tighter than it really needs to be. I do wear suspenders, but i also have a 395 hanging off my belt. Without the big saw, i have no problems carrying a normal saddle load without the suspenders. A gut will throw this off though.



cairologger said:


> Tonight i'm going to try a smaller one (24") and I read that an arms length is the proper distance to have your chest from the tree, is that about right??



This is another one that it depends on what works for you. (Don't let this get out:smile2 but i was taught as a free climber. My climbing style still shows it even with a lanyard. I climb chest about a handspan away from the tree, butt out, knees away from the tree, and with my hands on the sides of the tree or just breaking around the back curve, keeping a slack lanyard in one hand. Only on the trees big enough that i can't get my hands around the curve of the trunk do i lean back on the lanyard and flip climb-that's about the only time my chest would be at arms length from the trunk. My knees keep the spikes at the proper angle to prevent gaff outs and my hands are what is holding my upper body to the tree-this sounds tiring(another newbie mistake, climbing with your arms instead of your legs) but i'm fairly well balanced in this climbing position with my upper body leaning into the tree with my butt out, and my hands are really doing no more than catching myself from going too far back and carrying up the back side of my slack lanyard. This style is quick because there is no stopping and starting to position the lanyard. The downside, is if you gaff out, your forearms will take a beating, your lanyard will take a bit more slide before it catches, and your face will get dinged being closer to the trunk. Now the rest of this is probably just my own phobia, but i climb with the straight gaffs-you'll see when a guy is flip climbing, he'll usually straighten out his legs to move his lanyard up-that straightening out the legs will kick out a straight gaff for me every now and then, it's why i don't do it more than necessary and why i climb with splayed out knees. 




cairologger said:


> I'm having a hard time getting up on the spikes and moving up, it killing my legs. My wife was watching me and said she thought I was taking to large a step. How far should i be stepping????? I'm 6'2" 225lbs. She said me being 51 might have something to do with it! I thought I was in good shape, but the spurs are teaching me otherwise..



This is one of the biggest things that newbies need to be taught-you don't have to get to the top of the tree in two steps. I'm actually several inches taller and fifty pounds heavier than you and make probably 8 inch steps up a tree. If you are lifting your leg high enough that your upper leg is parallel to the ground, that is way too big a step. My steps are pretty small, but again it goes back to my training-we were running up 50+ trees a day, and while i may take more smaller steps to get to the top, it's a lot easier on the knees. If you've got to "hoist" yourself to your next step, take smaller ones. 



Workboot said:


> I'm not trying to harp on you or anything but if you are just climbing for recreation anyways you should look into buying ascenders instead of gaffs. You will probably save some money (good ascenders are cheaper than good climbing spikes) and have more fun. Plus you won't have to worry about damaging the tree.



Then stop harping on it-you got your point across the first time. Like it was said before, the trees he's climbing have bigger things to worry about than gaff marks. A topping at six inches is usually not conducive to long life. The guy is not hurting anything, why not help him out instead of trying to guilt trip him out of learning something. I wish more actual "arborists" were proficient on spikes.


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## Workboot (Aug 16, 2011)

You can use a mechanical advantage system on rope that you can't just going up on spikesand like I said its more fun.


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## cairologger (Aug 16, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> Hey jake, welcome to the site, always nice to see someone interested in climbing. I'm just going to hit the parts that looked like they didn't get answered. And remember, what works for one guy doesn't always work for another-we all have our own style and it just takes time to find what's comfortable for you.
> The saddle slip, I usually set mine just above the belt on the pants, this seems to keep it above the hipbones and it gets cinched down pretty good, usually a notch tighter than it really needs to be. I do wear suspenders, but i also have a 395 hanging off my belt. Without the big saw, i have no problems carrying a normal saddle load without the suspenders. A gut will throw this off though.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply, that's a lot of good info. My 1-5/8" spikes and weaver suspenders should be in tomorrow and i'm going to try your style and see how it works for me. I have bought the stuff to rope climb with but thought I should learn spikes first. I have a 150' arborplex rope, leather friction saver, several tenex prusiks,figure eight with ears, 6 carabiners, trow lines and bags, helment and gloves. I having been doing tree removals for years and logged with my brother inlaw 20 years ago, had to fell them all with chainsaw no machines for him, he logged plantations and they didn't like big equipment. I just want to learn climbing and have to start sometime.

Thanks, Jake


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## cairologger (Aug 17, 2011)

cairologger said:


> Thanks for the reply, that's a lot of good info. My 1-5/8" spikes and weaver suspenders should be in tomorrow and i'm going to try your style and see how it works for me. I have bought the stuff to rope climb with but thought I should learn spikes first. I have a 150' arborplex rope, leather friction saver, several tenex prusiks,figure eight with ears, 6 carabiners, trow lines and bags, helment and gloves. I having been doing tree removals for years and logged with my brother inlaw 20 years ago, had to fell them all with chainsaw no machines for him, he logged plantations and they didn't like big equipment. I just want to learn climbing and have to start sometime.
> 
> Thanks, Jake


 
Good morning,
I tried your climbing method yesterday late, and even with the long spikes it was much easier. I would like some info on the flip line of choice, what do you use? I'm using one I made up myself, it's 1/2" 3 strand tree master, I know that 3 strand is supposed to be stiffer than braided rope but I think if I had a stiffer rope it would be easier to toss the line up. Why do arborist not use the lineman's leather straps? Is it the length thing? Seems they would be much easier to flip up.
Are pine trees harder to move the line up because of the rough bark, I haven't tried any thing but a pine so far. Are hardwoods easier to spur climb? I have got a protective cover on my flipline, it's a snug fitting kevlar sleeve ( we us it on race cars for wiring and plumbing protection) but it seems to grab the tree hard, it's always twisted on the rope after use. Do I need a covering? Is there a way of making my 3 strand stiffer or may be a 3/4" 3 strand would be better????????

Thanks for the help, i'm improving, Jake


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## beowulf343 (Aug 17, 2011)

cairologger said:


> Good morning,
> I would like some info on the flip line of choice, what do you use? I'm using one I made up myself, it's 1/2" 3 strand tree master, I know that 3 strand is supposed to be stiffer than braided rope but I think if I had a stiffer rope it would be easier to toss the line up. Why do arborist not use the lineman's leather straps? Is it the length thing? Seems they would be much easier to flip up.
> Are pine trees harder to move the line up because of the rough bark, I haven't tried any thing but a pine so far. Are hardwoods easier to spur climb? I have got a protective cover on my flipline, it's a snug fitting kevlar sleeve ( we us it on race cars for wiring and plumbing protection) but it seems to grab the tree hard, it's always twisted on the rope after use. Do I need a covering? Is there a way of making my 3 strand stiffer or may be a 3/4" 3 strand would be better????????



Personally, if i'm flip climbing, it's with a steel core. I use half inch XTC for my other lanyards. I hate to even say that cause it sounds like i'm telling you that you have to run out and buy another piece of gear. Smooth trees are easier to flip up, i can run up a beech, but will be cursing a shagbark hickory. Flipping a line is a technique that just has to be learned and practiced. My xtc can be used even on a decent sized stem, the wire just comes out because it's easier and i'm lazy. About the biggest thing i can tell you is _flip_ the backside of your line up, don't slide it. I like the backside of my lanyard to actually lose contact with the tree (doesn't need to be by much) before it gets moved into the new position. You slide a lanyard up something like a silver maple and it will get slid up under the bark, and then you are yanking (at a bad angle to boot) to get that piece of bark yanked off. Flip the line out and up, it drops into position on top of the bark instead of sliding into position under the bark. Sounds more complex than it needs to be, but it's just a technique, you do it a few hundred thousand times and you won't even think about it. Good luck. Sorry i can't be of more help, it's something easier to show than to explain.


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## TreeClimber57 (Aug 17, 2011)

fearofpavement said:


> Poles and trees while of the same origin need different spikes. Pole spikes are short as they don't penetrate very far and for those thick barked pines the spikes you have should be fine. You can use pole spikes on some hard barked trees but in most cases trees require longer ones. So your experience on the pole is not unusual. You can climb a pole with longer spikes but not very well, and you can't really climb a soft bark tree with pole spikes. So you have to have the right tools for the job. If you want a pair of pole spikes for any reason, I have an extra pair (just the irons) that I would send to you for cheap.


 
Agreed.

Having said that.. with enough experience you can actually do either.. I have climbed many a pole with tree gaffs and many a tree with pole gaffs. (even some thick barked trees ..) You have to know what you are doing and the risks involved.. climbing the thick barked tree with pole gaffs being worst as you can get a lot of cutouts.


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## lxt (Aug 18, 2011)

If all else fails?...............I would suggest a Steiner Lawn Mower! Yep, oh....& with a slip scoop too!


LXT............


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## Scrat (Aug 19, 2011)

Welcome Jake- Slated for removel then Spur on brother!
Hey dont let anyone tell you pole gaffs are less damaging than tree gaffs either.....vinyl siding just never heals well


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## pdqdl (Aug 19, 2011)

Using a continuous loop for tying a prussic is ok, but it is tedious to re-tie and it can bind up too tight. This takes more energy to loosen, and accelerates your fatigue in a tree.

Consider changing over to an eye-to-eye prussic. You can use the same rope, tie it onto the carabiner with the same "fishermans knot", and then you can use one of the more advanced friction hitches like these:

VT's: http://www.mytreelessons.com/user/VT variations.JPG
http://www.mytreelessons.com/user/Schwab Notes.jpg#WIDTH: 117px; HEIGHT: 189px
http://www.mytreelessons.com/user/Kleim-notes.jpg.jpeg
Distel Hitch | How to tie the Distel Hitch | Climbing Knots
Icicle Hitch | How to tie the Icicle Hitch Using the End | Boating Knots
Klemheist Knot | How to tie the Klemheist Knot | Climbing Knots
http://www.mytreelessons.com/photogallery/Knut & TK HItches.JPG


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## cairologger (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks y'all for all the good info, I did change my prusik from loop to 2 single fisherman knots and attached it to the lanyard by 4 coils and the saddle with a delta link. It's working very well for now. Thanks for all the new friction hitch pics. I'll try some ( after some testing ) later. I climbed again yesterday with the 1-5/8 spurs and the proctective covering removed from the flipline, I liked that a lot better, the line was much easier to get up the tree and the strain on my legs was less with the shorter spurs. I don't have a problem with heights but I am having to get use to trusting that flipline! I thought about rigging some form of a choker that would be tied to the middle d ring and taking it up with the flip line, if i gaff out with both, the choker would catch me. Have y'all tried it? Or do you have any better safety ideas? Also my weaver wide back double d climbing saddle had a label attached to the middle Ds that said use with snaps only. Does anyone know why? I called weaver and they did'nt know. I use trilock carabiners for everything, is this right or do I need snaps for hooking to the Ds?

Thanks, Jake


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## tree md (Aug 19, 2011)

No need for a choker, the flipline will catch you if you gaff out. That's what it's there for. Just have to learn to trust your ropes and gear.


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## John Ellison (Aug 19, 2011)

You could do like TreeMD mentioned above and rig your climbing rope too. I seen in your earlier post that you had the rope climbing gear. I am a greenhorn climber too and am mostly just Drt climbing. Am gradually trusting it more and more. I tried spurs and flipline without the Drt setup and was shakey as soon as I left the ground. Having the climbing rope rigged up gives me the confidence I need so that I am not worried about gaffing out and wondering if I can catch myself.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 19, 2011)

cairologger said:


> I don't have a problem with heights but I am having to get use to trusting that flipline! I thought about rigging some form of a choker that would be tied to the middle d ring and taking it up with the flip line, if i gaff out with both, the choker would catch me. Have y'all tried it? Or do you have any better safety ideas? Also my weaver wide back double d climbing saddle had a label attached to the middle Ds that said use with snaps only. Does anyone know why? I called weaver and they did'nt know. I use trilock carabiners for everything, is this right or do I need snaps for hooking to the Ds?



Your lanyard will stop you from hitting the ground if you gaff out. However, if you are in something skinny and want more stability, just wrap your lanyard around the tree twice-this will cinch it down if you slip. A double wrap is a pain to climb with, but might ease your mind a bit.
Your carabiners are fine to us on your lanyard. It probably says snaps because that is what was used for so long and weaver is a bit behind the times. I actually like snaps on my lanyard, just easier for me to snap and unsnap even with heavy gloves-some of these trilocks can get a bit ridiculous.


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## troythetreeman (Aug 21, 2011)

im old school self taught climber, and yeah, i agree spikes arent "good" for trees but i have several customers wont hire anyone else and have climbed several trees many times over the years, i like klein spikes, tried a few others, buckingham arent bad, bashlin, gecho or any other "light weight" spikes suck ass
and just as important is boot choice, i wear red wing loggers
i climb the occasional pole with mine to drop cable or phone lines, they work fine
i have a very unique style and with few exceptions i move faster and smoother in a tree then most guys
i use a weaver basic saddle with the wide back and no gadgets
i climb with an echo cs340 with a fixed ring for my belt hook
if i cant do it with one hand i dont want it in the tree
as for your lanyard, ive grown pretty fond of my cable cored lanyard and a micortender
for ropes i use poison ivy and true blue, if youre doing something too big for a true blue hire a crane, youll have it down in a couple hours so it _well_ worth the cost
i do 90% of my roping myself so i prefer a shorter rope 90% of the time
and unless im roping very large limbs i dont have a lot of use for friction savers or porta wraps
with practice you will learn how not to burn ropes and if you do you own roping you need fewer people on the ground and shorter ropes mean less fighting and faster rigging
back to spikes, keep them _sharp_, walk dont stomp and be aware of the damage they do to trees you trim and strive to minumize
once a sharp spike is in the tree, it cant go anywhere but deeper unless you twist it out (excluding dead or dieing elm trees, beware those, be sure you spike is in and pointed the right way)
ive only ever had a lanyard catch me once in 15 years, i was climbing for someone else and using his gear, dull spikes in a dead hard maple, some lessons you only need to learn once
and if youre climbing youll learn a few im sure, trust yourself
trust your gear
and dont doubt for a second, falling isnt the real threat, that saw is, if you cant run one on the ground, dont take it in the tree
this is your life and limb, dont cut corners


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## lostcoastland (Aug 21, 2011)

You Da man...one handed Echo doing crane removals..do you climb back down and operate the crane after?:hmm3grin2orange:


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## troythetreeman (Aug 21, 2011)

ofc you bring a bigger saw into the tree for bigger cutting, i use a husqvarna 350 pretty regular, got it cheap from a customer, its light and has plenty of power to pull an aggressive chain on an 18inch bar. step up from that the stihl 46 magnum, then the 66 magnum and then the husky 3120xp
and i use a leash when i have rear handled saws in the tree


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 21, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> im old school self taught climber, and yeah, i move faster and smoother in a tree then most guys


 
Really? :msp_w00t:
Jeff


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## Kottonwood (Aug 21, 2011)

Cairo,
I think some folks have already mentioned it on here but if you already have the rope climbing gear you should really be learning that first or simultaneously. Spurs are great, but nothing is faster or easier than using a combination of spur climbing and rope climbing. If you have good rope climbing technique climbing on spurs will come much easier. Even if you just bring an extra long lanyard/ short climb line up with you. You can throw it in and use it as extra support when you are moving around. Those advanced friction hitches in combo with a micro pulley is definitely the way you want to go, even on a lanyard. It gives you the ability to adjust completely one handed which is really nice. Don't worry about the size of your spurs so much. Once you get used to climbing you'll be able to climb just about anything with just about any spurs. My last piece of advice is that spurs aren't comfortable... they are just slightly less uncomfortable when you are using them right.


and just a note..... I don't care what customers say, if you are spike trimming you're a hack, customers generally don't know what the hell is good for their trees and they count on professional arborists to give them good advice and maintain their trees properly. If you are conning them into letting you spike trim their trees.... you're a hack. Rope climbing is just as fast and easy as with spikes.


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## TreeClimber57 (Aug 21, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> and just a note..... I don't care what customers say, if you are spike trimming you're a hack, customers generally don't know what the hell is good for their trees and they count on professional arborists to give them good advice and maintain their trees properly. If you are conning them into letting you spike trim their trees.... you're a hack. Rope climbing is just as fast and easy as with spikes.


 
Agreed.. although a bucket (if it is accessable) is faster than either


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## Kottonwood (Aug 21, 2011)

agreed, I have never used a bucket myself, but they look pretty fast.


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## lostcoastland (Aug 21, 2011)

climbing without spikes is wayy harder dudes. some trees you can pretty much freeclimb but climbing without spikes involves hoisting your self up the tree every time you want to move. if you dont have a crotch directly above you in the direction your going you wont be goign that way. even a couple steps without spikes can be a huge ordeal requiring multiple climb lines ascenders and foot loops. perhaps you could get away with it on a spruce but big willows, oaks and maples that have oddly curving profiles can give you hell and are some of the hardest ive done, especially chinese elms in the socal region which are smooth and have odd corkscrew branches that go way out and weep down after. this is where i tell the foremen let the bucket truck do it its going to take too long. Climbers are still need in some spots where the bucket cant get because of wires ect. Spike climbing is a million times easier anyone who says otherwise is stubburn and in denial..why do you think you see park trees ten fifteen feet high with grabable branches right there and theres spike markes like some guy couldnt pull himself into the tree or use a ladder. Spike climbing really messes up trees, some trees can handle it others its like a really bad case of acne. some production pruning like utilty work looks past spikes because it would just be way too slow to have a bunch of guys spikeless climbing miles of powerlines and people prioritize electricity over tree health and appearance..there would be trees falling on lines before people got anything done, on the other hand beatiful park trees would be hacked and pock marked. gotta learn both time and place for each, i hated ladders but if you removing a large leader sometimes you can reach it with a ladder and wear spikes on the job without damaging the actual tree...


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## troythetreeman (Aug 21, 2011)

most guys who use spikes dont belong in a tree and if youre doing noticeable damage youre not using youre equipment correctly
i will not deny spikes arent good for trees, they arent, but you dont need to hammer them in, you dont need to leave big holes or tears, if someone can stand further then 4 feet from a tree and see that its been spiked, the last guy to climb was using dull spikes and using them incorrectly
i wear spikes in a tree, but im very aware of the damage they do and i dont spike when i dont need to
one of my best friends is a spikeless climber, hes amazing in a tree, and i dont say that lightly
learn both ways, thats good advise
but while spikeless climbing doesnt put spike marks in trees, it is harder, it does take longer, you cant reach everything i can and because you cant set yourself the way i can youre going to make alot of poor cuts, which, if were all being honest, is much worse as a poor cut takes a lot longer to heal then spike holes
call me a hack if you like, youre judging my methods without seeing my work


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## troythetreeman (Aug 21, 2011)

as for a bucket truck, 85% of the jobs i do the bucket truck either cant get to or wouldnt be better, we have one, but it sets in the yard more often then not
no sense firing it up to save 20 minutes in a tree
buckets are nice for mid sized removals, small removals are faster to climb and large removals are safer to climb (generally) in a large removal i want to be in the tree where i know i can always be clear of swinging limbs, that or get a crane in, just be sure your crane guy knows what hes doing, ive worked with a few, and south side is the only one im willing to work with anymore
the more variables you can remove from an equation the better


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## lostcoastland (Aug 21, 2011)

alot of time guys in bucket trucks break limbs with the boom mostly pruning after they just pruned it all nice.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 21, 2011)

lostcoastland said:


> alot of time guys in bucket trucks break limbs with the boom mostly pruning after they just pruned it all nice.


 
Done it with mine, just a little colatteral damage to spruce up before putting er' back in the cradle.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 21, 2011)

troythetreeman;3112608
call me a hack if you like said:


> You sound like a 'hack' to me!
> Jeff


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## tree md (Aug 22, 2011)

Was doing sub work for a local guy here in Alabama the first week I got here. I had to climb one large pine that was staying, hang a bull line and swing over to another large pine that was uprooted and coming out. I went to shoot a line in the first tree to ascend on and the owner asked me what I was doing. I told him I was going up the tree that was staying spikless... He said "that's just silly". LOL

If you want to do high end work on nice large trees in affluent and historical neighborhoods, you better learn how to climb without spikes...


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## Bermie (Aug 22, 2011)

When climbing spikeless, a few loop runners take the place of spikes...


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## Kottonwood (Aug 22, 2011)

I don't find spikeless climbing to be that much harder. With all the modern techniques and equipment we have now it is not even that much slower than spiking. Yes you need to use ascenders, footloops, etc but you can reach anywhere in a tree spikeless and if you think I can't make perfect pruning cuts without my spikes on you're kidding yourself. How often do you use your spikes when you're limb walking? That is where all the proper pruning cuts are made. I am light and yanking myself around a tree on a double rope is not that hard. I usually use two lines and tie in twice if I don't have a central leader. On really large spreading maples I might have a groundie set 3 or more single ropes in the tree so I can come down, srt up and prune down one lead at a time. There is always a way to do it spikeless and you would never get away using spikes here in CO. There are way to many good arborists. As far as it being slower... I would never even bid a prune job for the speed of using spikes, doing it spikeless is in the price.... and it wouldn't be that much (if any) more expensive anyways.


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## cairologger (Aug 22, 2011)

Man what some info., y'all have done a little ( or a lot ) of all of it. I'm much more comfortable with the spikes now, i'm going to breakout the rope this week and start with the double rope method first and then the srt. I'm going to use a big oak in our fruit orchard and yes it will be low and slow. I have a 70' pine to remove for someone as soon as I feel comfortable with it. It's got to be climbed, can't just fell it. It's catfaced bad at about 20' up and is about a 26" diam. and a 15 degree lean. I thought I would put a line as high as I could ( not in the small of the top ) in the tree next to it (10' away) and let my buddy belay me from there (I have a fall arrest harness and the energy absorbing lanyard) with my climbing rope. My plan is to spike up to first limb (40') and trim and spike as I go up until I top it. My question is how to not be attached so secure to the tree being removed if it brakes at the catface that I won't go with it?????? I want to be hanging from the belay rope and let the tree go without me. Can you use a weak carabiner for your lanyard attachment and let it break away? There is also another tree on the other side about 15' away. I guess I could span the 2 and not have a lanyard attaching me to the tree.

Thanks, Jake


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## troythetreeman (Aug 22, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> You sound like a 'hack' to me!
> Jeff


 
maybe, but ill put my safety record, my customer satisfaction rating and the health of the trees i trim (that people dont insist i butcher or top against advisement) against yours any day


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 22, 2011)

Go for it. www.urbantreecare.com
Cert. WE-7624A
CTSP #519
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## troythetreeman (Aug 22, 2011)

ok jake, without seeing your tree i cant say anything concrete, but if you are tied to the adjacent tree and the first one falls youre going to swing into the tree youre tied to, if youre using some kind of break away youll likely be shot into the tree youre tied to and in not aware of any "break away" carabeaners
without seeing it i cant say for sure but if its standing its probably safe to climb, live pine trees catch a lot of wind, so if the wind hasnt done it in, youre not likely too, as you climb youll be limbing and removing weight likely more then half your own weight
as you limb it dont leave stubs, cut flush to the tree, stubs have the potential to create chaos
one or two at the top for a hand hold or lanyard stop arent a bad idea
the higher you go before you top it the better, the more weight you suddenly free up from the top of that tree the more violently the trunk is going to buck, and once youre down to the pole, if youre up high enough its going to be pretty wobbly, the limbs and top act as stabilizers 
stay steady in the tree, keep your weight centered and use yourself to counter the wobble, this takes some practice
when youre climbing spend some time inspecting the weak area of concern
if you decide its unsafe to climb, dont climb it, tell the customer you think it needs a boom, possibly call in another more experienced climber for a second opinion
sounds like they know youre a beginner and are working with you, no doubt your personal safety is a great concern for them
youre plan to be shot or swung into an adjacent tree isnt something i would even consider
if you truely think the tree will break from your added weight, dont climb it
but again, if its still standing, youre probably safe
do you plan to just tip the top off or does it need to be roped? if youre roping it, without the proper equipment and someone who knows how to use it youre going to shock load it
this is going to send you for a ride, keep youre weight on your spikes, _know_ what youre going to do with youre saw and be ready to hang on, make sure youre secured in a way that if your spikes are kicked out you dont ride your lanyard down the trunk
this is also where the largest risk of the tree breaking is
if youre just tipping it off, depending on how much flex is between you and the ground, how much weight youre taking from the top and how cleanly your notch breaks free, youre still gunna be bucked up in that tree
just be sure youre ready and youre sure how and where the top will fall
thats about as good of advise i can give you


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## cairologger (Aug 23, 2011)

Good morning,
I thought with the line set much higher than me the swing to the other tree would be a slow one. I guess 10' is still a long swing? On the carabiner I was thinking one of the non locking with a 75lbs rating. And would one of them work also as a chainsaw lanyard breakaway? I'm sure your right on the strength of the tree, it's weathered many storms and is still standing. I was planning on limbing it up (no roping them down needed) and then cutting the trunk down in short sections. What length do you think I would need to cut them in for it not to shake me around to bad?? Does cutting a larger angle face cut (90 degrees +) help with the push off effect when the hing breaks??


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## Kottonwood (Aug 23, 2011)

Cairo,

Your idea of tying into another tree isn't all bad. No need for a belay guy though, just hook up your double rope and you're good. If you have a grigri or something a single rope is better because a groundman can lower you for a rescue and you can still self tend slack... but you are starting to get into some fairly advanced things here.... that's why it is good to have someone with experience on the job site. Remember this is not a safety your gonna want to use.... it'll still hurt but you probably won't die. 

I personally would never even consider using a break away lanyard, the lanyards job is to hold you to the tree, a breakaway defeats that purpose. What if it snaps when you are making a cut? Then you go swinging into the other tree with a running chainsaw in your hand. As long as you are not planning on rigging off of it, the tree should be fine. A lot of times when I am about to swing a large limb I unclip my lanyard and hold it so if anything goes wrong I can drop it and swing out of the way. You most likely won't want to do this if you are rigged into another tree. 

Take a small top, ten feet or less. This will limit the movement, also you should be able to push it over by hand instead of using wedges. For the logs on the way down take small manageable pieces that you can push over by hand or even snap cut towards the top. For bigger pieces at the bottom put a tag line on them. That is a lot of tree for your first time. take it slow. Do the most dangerous things when you are fresh, take breaks if you need to, that will help you from making any dumb decisions. Simply standing in spikes for that amount of time can take a toll on the average guy's decision making process. 

It sounds like you are on the right track but work slow, it would benefit you a lot to have an experienced climber come out and give you some pointers on that tree. Or pay a sub to work the tree and learn from him. You might be able to find one in your area on this website. You really should watch some people climb and work before you do it yourself. Be safe, and if you don't feel comfortable it is probably for a good reason, so don't do it.

How much ground saw experience do you have? Cutting felling notches on the ground is one thing... doing it in the tree is a different story. If you can't cut a perfect felling notch on the ground every time you have no business trying it in a tree. If you cut all the way through your holding wood and that sucker goes the wrong way... you're gonna have a bad day. 

And DON'T CUT YOUR LANYARD!


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## troythetreeman (Aug 23, 2011)

Does cutting a larger angle face cut (90 degrees +) help with the push off effect when the hing breaks??

no, if anything itll make it worse as youre going to have a lot more weight pulling against the vertical

45 or so and just before your notch closes try to power through the remaining hinge so it just falls free and doesnt break
careful though, id much rather ride a bucking tree then cut myself with the saw
as was stated earlier, what youre talking about here is a lot of tree, tall bean poles are tricky
good luck man, ill check again in a couple weeks when i return from vacation


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## cairologger (Aug 23, 2011)

Double rope and self belay sounds good to me. I have been cutting on the ground for 20 years intermitently. I have 9 saws and 2 pole saws, 4 are husqvarnas and one is a bow and one is a old homelite 66 gear reduction, and yep I still use them all. The bow sure is easy on the back! My favorite is a 365, I raised the compression, ported the cylinder, coated the piston skirt with dfl and the top with thermal barrier. advanced the timing and ported muffler and carb. 8 pin with 20" bar, it's my pick if I want to have some fun, am in a hurry or want to show off. And i know I shouldn't show off with a chainsaw, but it's so fun to run!


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 23, 2011)

troythetreeman;3115352 ill check again in a couple weeks when i return from vacation[/QUOTE said:


> Pic's or you are not on vacation! You join and lecture and must be able to post pic's of vacation.
> Until then, you are 'troythetreeboy!'.
> You got 15 years and think you deserve a bag of chip's.
> Hang in there, you do got attitude, not sure about the rest tho. :msp_unsure:
> Jeff


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## troythetreeman (Sep 8, 2011)

you get it down yet? how did it go?


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## cairologger (Sep 8, 2011)

Good morning, 

Nope, i,ve been so busy rotory mowing for people and cleaning up storm damage I had'nt had time to think. I have it planned for sat. after next. I'm going to have someone video it for me so y'all can point out my mistakes( if I make any). I've got a pine limb at my house about 30' up just hanging waiting to fall on someone, i'm going to try my double rope climbing skills this weekend and take it down.

Thanks, Jake


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## cairologger (Sep 27, 2011)

Good morning,

I have been climbing some for practice lately and this is what I have found, The spurs push in to the upper part of my leg so hard that it's very ucomfortable after just a few minutes, I have climbrights with the t pads. Is there a better upper pad to use or do y'all have some cheap trick to evenly distribute the load? I have been climbing the rope srt and drt. I feel much more comfortable on the rope than the spikes. I'm using the 4 coil prusik for foot sling and center of saddle. I like the speed of the srt better but I went up about 20' to remove a dead limb in a pine and then tried to come down on the upper prussik and it had such a bite I had to put the foot loop back on and take the pressure off of it all the way down. It came to me after getting to the ground that the load was doubled on the srt compaired to the drt. I'm going to try the bachmann with carabiner on the drt and srt. I also have a rescue 8 I'm going to try on the srt. My prusik is a 10mm tenex and my rope is 1/2" arbor plex. Should I try a 1/2 3 srand nylon for my prusik or is the 10mm ok with a bachmann and biner? ( To prevent binding up ) I just don't as comfortable and safe on the spikes yet. I removed a dead pine ( no limbs ) 2 weeks ago and it had small utility buildings on 3 sides and neighbors property on the 4th side. The tree was in the middle of 2 live pines with about 15' per side, the neighbor was nice enough to let me trow it on his place. What I would have loved to do would have been set a line high up in the side trees and climb out to the dead one and take it down from the top. But I don't have a clue how to do that safely.


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## troythetreeman (Sep 27, 2011)

adjust your spikes, they adjust 1/8 inch intervals for a reason, if they arent set right theyre gunna hurt, im not sure if you need to go up or down but thats likely your problem, i like mine high just below the knee, i can climb all day and my legs dont get sore
as for your rope question, i dont have a knowledgeable answer, i just tie my climbing line to my D rings with a knot and leave a long enough tail to tie my tautline, which would work the same for your prusk


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## RacerX (Sep 27, 2011)

cairologger said:


> Good morning,
> I thought with the line set much higher than me the swing to the other tree would be a slow one. I guess 10' is still a long swing? On the carabiner I was thinking one of the non locking with a 75lbs rating. And would one of them work also as a chainsaw lanyard breakaway?



I've heard of guys using breakaway chainsaw lanyards just for this purpose. I believe that they break at about 200#'s so you could still use one as a climbing lanyard just don't lean back too much. :msp_rolleyes:


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## cairologger (Sep 28, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> you get it down yet? how did it go?


 
I had a friend look at it with me ( he worked for the electric company for 10 years on the tree crew ) and he thought for my first tree a leaner over power lines and by the road was a bad choice. So I set a 1" rope up in it and blocked it to the base of another tree and we hooked the rope to the front tow hook of his dually. He could see me and the tree good as he was backing up. He put a good load on the tree and I cut a 90 degree face cut and cut almost all the hinge out on the road side and it laid right down in the ditch and road side. Worked beautifully.


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## troythetreeman (Sep 28, 2011)

always easier when you can cut them at the bottom


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## [email protected] (Oct 3, 2011)

i just started but my set up is a split tail blakes hitch on my main line

then clmibing, just spikes and the landyard until i can set my top rope with splittail and blakes hitch

climbing the line usually jus the hip thrust or lineover foot step up. 

like i said i am new to climbing...but a big tree that will old you is more confidenece booster than a small tree that blows in the wind.

-Ryan


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## Greener (Oct 16, 2011)

cairologger said:


> Good afernoon all,
> 
> I've been buying climbing gear for 6 mouths or so and tried my first tree yesterday and had a few problems I thought I would run by y'all. The tree was a pine 36" diam. , the first thing was my prusik on my flip line was to long and was right at the trunk, I had made it up myself and had some shorter ones with me( I made them with 3/8 yellow 7000 lbs cord. I made it into a loop joined with double fisherman knots) I installed a shorter one with a 6 coil prusik on the treemaster 3 strand flip line and I used a girth hitch at the carabiner. Is this prusik set up ok?????? The first problem when I got in the tree was my saddle felt like it wanted to to keep sliding down on me (is suspenders the answer to this?), my saddle is a Weaver extra wide back double d ring 6 lbs plus my other junk, second problem was my prusik would tighten up so tight on the flip line that I would have to take all the weight off of it and work it some to loosen it up before I could adjust the line. Is 4 coils rather than 6 the answer for this or a diffrent friction hitch? I'm 6'2" and 225# I did'nt thing I was puttting that much pressure on the hitch.
> 
> Thanks, Jake



Jake. I may have missed something, but with the prusik issue on your flip line issue, you might consider investing in a rope grab device instead of the prusik method. It is simpler to work with and won't bind on the flip line. If you are primarily a spike climber, I think this is your best bet. Even with the rope grab, though, you will have to reach over with the opposite hand to grab the flip line and to take pressure off the rope grab before you adjust it with the other hand. It takes some practice, but it is easier than with a prusik adjuster method.


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## FanOFatherNash (Feb 12, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Really? :msp_w00t:
> Jeff



I have personally seen most climbers climb , its true what he says


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 12, 2012)

FanOFatherNash said:


> I have personally seen most climbers climb , its true what he says




Jeff


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## lostcoastland (Mar 4, 2012)

cairologger said:


> I had a friend look at it with me ( he worked for the electric company for 10 years on the tree crew ) and he thought for my first tree a leaner over power lines and by the road was a bad choice. So I set a 1" rope up in it and blocked it to the base of another tree and we hooked the rope to the front tow hook of his dually. He could see me and the tree good as he was backing up. He put a good load on the tree and I cut a 90 degree face cut and cut almost all the hinge out on the road side and it laid right down in the ditch and road side. Worked beautifully.



Don't Cut almost all the way through hinge! you need that to keep the tree on the stump till its on it's way down safely. .that's all your control right there..ive seen guys think they can pull over any leaner and have to climb and limb the tree ready to bail trying to take weight off. Ive seen another guy use wedges and a truck to do it bit by bit. Cut a little bit..pull a little set wedges a little more..its alot safer than one shot all or nothing. Its good to have direct visual contact. i was in the truck pulling and the freaking faller just decides to start ignoring me. i'm waving hooting and hollering he
s cutting and stopping and cutting and stopping with a big old spruce tree..Afterwards i was flipping out like dude wtf i'm weavign my arms screaming at your not even lookign at me once the whole time!! He was kind of retarded always leavign stubs out , walkign out to the tip of the tree while i 'm limbing it from the butt. I tried dropping branches on his head after he hit his chainbreak so he might wake up. sounds like your buddy knows what he's doing though..i met someone who really schooled me after i almost lost one backward into a house and powerlines in front of the HO..I climbed the tree next to it and pushed it over and it freaking fell on the rope tied to the tree i was in..it was a double wammy i went for the ride of my life that log pushed the rope all the way to the ground i hugged the tree while it boinged like one of those spring door stops..I thought i could eyeball it and my senses were good ran out of ropes on the last tree..no branches just a stick. Huge oops falling, and a huge oops climbing all cutting one tree....went home and the guy was cool and said i could come back and do the rest of the job with this other guy who i ended up working for as a rigging guy...i kept climbing though and learned there will always be trees or situations like that. you have to change your plan before you walk right into a trap. Cassidy Lancelin


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## Greener (Mar 7, 2012)

cairologger said:


> Good morning,
> I thought with the line set much higher than me the swing to the other tree would be a slow one. I guess 10' is still a long swing? On the carabiner I was thinking one of the non locking with a 75lbs rating. And would one of them work also as a chainsaw lanyard breakaway? I'm sure your right on the strength of the tree, it's weathered many storms and is still standing. I was planning on limbing it up (no roping them down needed) and then cutting the trunk down in short sections. What length do you think I would need to cut them in for it not to shake me around to bad?? Does cutting a larger angle face cut (90 degrees +) help with the push off effect when the hing breaks??



Avoid free falling wood by facing out the undercuts when your are chunking down the pole, unless you have a lot of room in your drop zone. This approach usually results in lengths of wood spinning wildly to the ground, and increases the chance of bounce on the ground. I used to do more standard felling (like you are talking about) when taking down poles. But looking back, it was way more risky and I'm lucky I came out unscathed on a few occassions. I had a few sit back on me. I would caution you about doing it unless you are absolutely certain about 1) the center of gravity of the wood or if you have a rope on the top with a groundie ready. A better approach is to do snap cuts (in medium wood (10-15") come through with the gut of the bar-cutting away from you-until the bar starts to pinch, then come through from the other side an inch or so below the kerf/first cut). If the wood is bigger 20 inches or so, you should not chunk more length than double the diameter while you are still getting used to it. If you are going to do a standard face cut-and when blowing out longer tops (as was mentioned by someone else in this post) when doing the back cut and it starts to go, speed up in the cut so you can decrease the hinge size to avoid splitting the trunk and minimize the spring back when it goes over.


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