# Anybody contract with a mill?



## Wood Cutter (Jun 12, 2015)

Anybody ever cut jobs for a mill where the tumber was already bought? All you did was cut and skid? Looking for some input on this, thanks


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## possumtrapper (Jun 12, 2015)

Yep only one load of Cyprus Lucy. It was a sample load of random length we did while on the way out of a bigger job. Hourly rate work as we hadn't harvested Lucy before but knew it was hard to delimb and heavy branching. They had a self loader pick up some time after we left.


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

I've sub-contract cut and skid for Algoma Lumber for the past four years. You are going to need your own workers comp and liabilty to cut for a mill. As far as I know its all sub. Going rate is 110-120/ per thousand bf statewide. Pulp arrangements vary greatly. I've got a good one, but I've talked to other mills with bad ones.


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## Wood Cutter (Jun 13, 2015)

Bitzer who picks up the tab for the trucking?


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

The mill hauls their own logs and usually I can get them to deliver my pulp. I sell it as firewood locally. I pay them per hour for pulp hauling. The logs are theirs so they take care of that. I just cut em, buck em, land em.


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## Wood Cutter (Jun 13, 2015)

Ok. I was offered 135 a thousand to cut and skid. Split the trucking, pulp is mine, they can truck it for me. Ok deal? Never done anything like this before, want to make sure I don't get suckered into anything lol


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

Wood Cutter said:


> Ok. I was offered 135 a thousand to cut and skid. Split the trucking, pulp is mine, they can truck it for me. Ok deal? Never done anything like this before, want to make sure I don't get suckered into anything lol


Split the trucking on the logs too? Which mill is it? I know yer area was historically full of big white pine, but whats timber like up there now? If yer handcutting and yer pulp volume estimates outnumber the footage then its tough to make money. Like say you've got a 50 mbf job. 50 cords is all I would want to take out with it. Whats your average timber size? 200bf or less or more per tree? What machine you using? Lots of variables to think about.


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## Wood Cutter (Jun 15, 2015)

Well I miss understood him on the trucking, they pay for the trucking of the logs. All the cutting I've done is all hardwood, never cut a white pine yet lol, all the jobs I've been on specify white pine left. A lot of what we cut goes to tie logs with Stella jones being down in Bangor. I will be hand cutting and using a cable skidder to pull to the landing.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 15, 2015)

Just curious... you mention Bangor. What part of Maine are you cutting in?

Sorry if it's mentioned, "location" doesn't load on my phone.


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## Wood Cutter (Jun 15, 2015)

Sorry, Bangor Wi. Not to far from the Mississippi river


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 16, 2015)

Selling to a mill on quote is fine situation if you dont mind falling and skidding for 60 bucks a cord.
Mills smell stupid loggers a mile away.
The money is in the butt logs as veneer.
Screw the mill, be your own man. Find out who the mill is selling your high grade to.
Everybody needs to make a buck, but the money is made on the landing not at the mill.


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## bitzer (Jun 16, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Selling to a mill on quote is fine situation if you dont mind falling and skidding for 60 bucks a cord.
> Mills smell stupid loggers a mile away.
> The money is in the butt logs as veneer.
> Screw the mill, be your own man. Find out who the mill is selling your high grade to.
> Everybody needs to make a buck, but the money is made on the landing not at the mill.


Yeah thats all well and good, but getting started buying your own jobs is a tough way to go. Keeping wood in front of you everyday keeps money coming in.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 16, 2015)

I wish I could contract with a mill...

They don't really work that way out here, for the big acreage jobs they do, but the smaller stuff where I fit in currently its everyone for themselves...


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 17, 2015)

It's easy to get out on your own. In my prime I was cutting 365 trees a year instead of 365 hundred.
Buying your own wood on the stump is about as independant as your gonna get.
Im talking hardwood and the Great Lake States.
Money is just as good in your pocket as it is in the middleman's


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's easy to get out on your own. In my prime I was cutting 365 trees a year instead of 365 hundred.
> Buying your own wood on the stump is about as independant as your gonna get.
> Im talking hardwood and the Great Lake States.
> Money is just as good in your pocket as it is in the middleman's


Really? That easy huh? How did you get jobs lined up? Unless you're high grading I don't see how you could be cutting veneer all the time. Not around here anyway. The high graders usually get chased out. Landowners talk.


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

I'd really like to know your real story John although I'm sure I will never get it. Sometimes you make sense and sometimes I can tell you're full of ****.


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## 1270d (Jun 17, 2015)

If you were cutting that few trees and making it, must have been birds eye.


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

1270d said:


> If you were cutting that few trees and making it, must have been birds eye.


Walnut? Curly walnut? I wonder if its so easy why isn't he still at it.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

No, my stihl husky dealer also sold farm equipment so I had an in with farmers who usually have timber. Plus I had the added advantage of being able to smell the stuff a mile away.
Call me a high grader if you like, but I took only 4-5 ripe pumpkins per acre. That allowed me to go back every five to ten years. I never overcut, and I cleaned up the tops and had a very good reputation in my area as paying top dollar and not making the bush look like a bad haircut.
I left when saw timber really dropped in price, but that was just an excuse to come north because timber tramps also suffer from itchy feet.
I will go back though, because all those bush's I cut are getting ripe again, but I have to put in my time up here first.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

Rock maple sky rocketed around 95, but it wasnt until about 98 that I new what veneer meant and I was paying 500$ on the stump/tree average. I never used my own money, but 10,000 dollars is a magic figure to most farmers for a 10,000bf truck load plus whatever it veneers out to be. I was way to generous, but I could sleep at night and I never found myself bushless.
High graders always hide behind the low grade.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

Cutting some keepers is a big rush. Green gold rush. There's a funny story about that black cherry butt log, remind me to tell you about it sometime.Lol

John


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 19, 2015)

Am I talking to myself around here! Lol
If we manage our wood a bit better whe could have better and bigger trees forever.
Irregardless, trees are glorified grass and if you want carrots you have weed your garden


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 19, 2015)

What is the orange paint for?


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## bitzer (Jun 19, 2015)

But yer not weeding yer garden when you do it that way John. Yer just pulling the carrots. Twenty years ago a guy might have been able to cut a very few select few trees around here, but people want max dollar out of their woods now. That means 60-70 percent basal area when yoy are done. Get some light in to let things grow. The majority of them also want pulp out. Its a few extra bucks to them and it cleans up the woods some. They also want money in hand before you step foot in the woods. The only landowners that approach me to cut timber and are willing to do shares have been turned down by the mills already or they think their timber is worth a fortune. I've had very few approach me that actually have decent timber that want to cut out the middle man. Thats the state of affairs in SE WI right now anyway. Timber is not all that easy to buy anymore. A lot of mandatory harvests thru MFL. I don't doubt that it was possible to only cut the pumpkins out, but good luck now. At least around here. You were cutting in Michigan right?

So if you only have a half dozen trees to cut in each woods you must have had about 200 landowners lined up? Just to stay busy every working day of the year I mean.


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## Bwildered (Jun 19, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 431288
> Cutting some keepers is a big rush. Green gold rush. There's a funny story about that black cherry butt log, remind me to tell you about it sometime.LolView attachment 431287
> 
> John


You must have been doing ok, your friend had a fair amount of bling for an outing to the log dump.
Thansk


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## 1270d (Jun 19, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 431288
> Cutting some keepers is a big rush. Green gold rush. There's a funny story about that black cherry butt log, remind me to tell you about it sometime.LolView attachment 431287
> 
> John



Weird, this whole time I thought you were a guy.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 19, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> What is the orange paint for?


The orange paint is there to differentiate the veneer from the saw logs so that the log trucker can sort with no mistake.
No veneer goes to a sawmill or they just flip them. Its all about marketing and keeping away from the middle man.
Selling to the horses mouth is much more lucrative.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 19, 2015)

1270d said:


> Weird, this whole time I thought you were a guy.


I thought I was a guy too, but I just took a look and it appears I have some arbitrary genitalia. Lol


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 19, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> The orange paint is there to differentiate the veneer from the saw logs so that the log trucker can sort with no mistake.
> No veneer goes to a sawmill or just they just flip them. Its all about marketing and keeping away from the middle man.
> Selling to the horses mouth is much more lucrative.



Interesting. Don't have really have sawmills around here aside from small setups like what we have here at the shop (Woodmizer LT40).... we do the whole thing, log, haul and make lumber or firewood out of the logs so no need to mark anything.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 19, 2015)

bitzer said:


> But yer not weeding yer garden when you do it that way John. Yer just pulling the carrots. Twenty years ago a guy might have been able to cut a very few select few trees around here, but people want max dollar out of their woods now. That means 60-70 percent basal area when yoy are done. Get some light in to let things grow. The majority of them also want pulp out. Its a few extra bucks to them and it cleans up the woods some. They also want money in hand before you step foot in the woods. The only landowners that approach me to cut timber and are willing to do shares have been turned down by the mills already or they think their timber is worth a fortune. I've had very few approach me that actually have decent timber that want to cut out the middle man. Thats the state of affairs in SE WI right now anyway. Timber is not all that easy to buy anymore. A lot of mandatory harvests thru MFL. I don't doubt that it was possible to only cut the pumpkins out, but good luck now. At least around here. You were cutting in Michigan right?
> 
> So if you only have a half dozen trees to cut in each woods you must have had about 200 landowners lined up? Just to stay busy every working day of the year I mean.


I seldom went in for less than 20 trees or 10,000 ft which is a good truckload. Most of my logging was on the Niagara Escarpment 60 miles north of Toronto, population 8 million?
I logged maybe a 1000 acres there and i can hear it growing from here.
As long as we dont over cut we can go back on a regular basis. That 1000 acres would keep me going a lifetime.
At some point a precommercial cut is in order.
I was in an area where most loggers respected another mans territory if they knew what was good for them. Lol
One bush story I like is I offered a woodlot owner 13,758.65 for 40 trees + veneer, so after the cut I owed him 25,000 cash. We sat down over a beer and I handed him the 25 grand. Then he tells me a mill came around before I showed up and offered him 3500. Turned out it was his mothers timber.


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## bitzer (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm sure they're saving it for you. Thats exactly what they would do here. Oh thats John's timber. That guy that moved to Alaska? Yep. We better leave it alone then. Yep.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I'm sure they're saving it for you. Thats exactly what they would do here. Oh thats John's timber. That guy that moved to Alaska? Yep. We better leave it alone then. Yep.


Sometimes you become friends with people you buy timber off of. So at least 100 acres are the way I left them.
Plus, Im good at finding it. And finding loggers who timber tresspass in my neck of the woods. Lol


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## earache (Jul 18, 2015)

Wood cutter, looks like your thread got hijacked. If you do really good work, have a good reputation, I'd push the mill a little higher on the rates. Timber producers are getting harder and harder to find. Especially over in your neck of the woods with the hills and the limited pulp markets. Bitzer is a GREAT source of info for you as he has a real similar setup. I have subbed for a mill from time to time, but my operation is a little different. I have a shortwood mechanized operation, processor, double bunk forwarder, log truck). Typically when I sub for a mill, its a pulp mill, and they pay a certain rate per job roadside. If its a mill job, they usually take care of the time spent with the landowner, running lines, filing cutting notices, invasive species recon and control, marketing, marking trees, and often most importantly, they take care of woods road work. Trucking will usually be taken care of by the mill if its a sawmill job. If its a pulp job, they may cover trucking, but will tell me the rate in case I want to find my own trucker, or truck it myself. Those rates again vary. Subbing can be real good for you if your good and keep the mill and landowners satisfied, as the mills tend to bid higher than I can on stumpage and will want to keep you busy year round. Can really stabilize your business. As far as a middleman, there aren't many, if any, around here. The mill buys the stumpage from the landowner, puts a cutter in there. That's it. Its a really tough businessAs far as knowing if the rate their paying you is fair, there are just too many variables to say one way or the other. You need to know your costs, and what it will cost you in equipment and time to do a job. Then decide if you can do it at $135/thousand and take the pulp.


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## 056 kid (Jul 19, 2015)

Gypo, can you show me a 10,000' load? I dont doubt you.
Listen to this though, my current boss has been inc. For decades, not a dumb guy, mostly illiterate though. Anyhow, he can't hardly get 5,000 on a tractor & trailer grossing 83,000. Talking good logs stacked nice. Ive never scaled a load prior to them doing it, but he has to be getting screwed..

Oh yeah,"irregardless" not a word..


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## bitzer (Jul 19, 2015)

Just a heads up I heard a mill over that way promising high pay but not delivering. Some guys still waiting to get paid from last winter. I'm not sure if its that one and there is usually some truth to a rumor like that.


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## bitzer (Jul 19, 2015)

056 kid said:


> Gypo, can you show me a 10,000' load? I dont doubt you.
> Listen to this though, my current boss has been inc. For decades, not a dumb guy, mostly illiterate though. Anyhow, he can't hardly get 5,000 on a tractor & trailer grossing 83,000. Talking good logs stacked nice. Ive never scaled a load prior to them doing it, but he has to be getting screwed..
> 
> Oh yeah,"irregardless" not a word..


In upper Michigan they haul crazy loads like that. Lots of axles on those trucks. 1270d has some pics of 10-12mbf loads if I remember correctly. The most I've seen on a load here was 6500mbf. He had all oak on. I bet he was at least 20k overweight.


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## bitzer (Jul 19, 2015)

earache said:


> Wood cutter, looks like your thread got hijacked. If you do really good work, have a good reputation, I'd push the mill a little higher on the rates. Timber producers are getting harder and harder to find. Especially over in your neck of the woods with the hills and the limited pulp markets. Bitzer is a GREAT source of info for you as he has a real similar setup. I have subbed for a mill from time to time, but my operation is a little different. I have a shortwood mechanized operation, processor, double bunk forwarder, log truck). Typically when I sub for a mill, its a pulp mill, and they pay a certain rate per job roadside. If its a mill job, they usually take care of the time spent with the landowner, running lines, filing cutting notices, invasive species recon and control, marketing, marking trees, and often most importantly, they take care of woods road work. Trucking will usually be taken care of by the mill if its a sawmill job. If its a pulp job, they may cover trucking, but will tell me the rate in case I want to find my own trucker, or truck it myself. Those rates again vary. Subbing can be real good for you if your good and keep the mill and landowners satisfied, as the mills tend to bid higher than I can on stumpage and will want to keep you busy year round. Can really stabilize your business. As far as a middleman, there aren't many, if any, around here. The mill buys the stumpage from the landowner, puts a cutter in there. That's it. Its a really tough businessAs far as knowing if the rate their paying you is fair, there are just too many variables to say one way or the other. You need to know your costs, and what it will cost you in equipment and time to do a job. Then decide if you can do it at $135/thousand and take the pulp.



What kind of double bunk did you get? I think last time we talked you were looking for one. Sooner or later I will be in a set up like yours. I make decent money now, but I'm not going to be able to hand cut forever. There is quite a bit of wood I could knock down with a machine, but theres also enough big timber to satisfy me.


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## 056 kid (Jul 19, 2015)

Haha that ticket would have been quite a prize! The mill we cut for was just bought by northwest hardwoods. Previousely known as Shenandoah hardwoods. Those guys had more tricks to get $ than you would imagine. I guess northwest hardwoods they are out of the pnw. Nobody here jas a clue.. the loader operator basically asked me if the northwest was indeed in the northwest...


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## 1270d (Jul 19, 2015)

This scaled 12000 something. 


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## earache (Jul 19, 2015)

bitzer said:


> What kind of double bunk did you get? I think last time we talked you were looking for one. Sooner or later I will be in a set up like yours. I make decent money now, but I'm not going to be able to hand cut forever. There is quite a bit of wood I could knock down with a machine, but theres also enough big timber to satisfy me.


That's why I do both man. Last year out of 100% of the wood I sold, 60% was logs and bolts. So, my chainsaw time is still pretty high relative to other mechanized pulpers. I like the break it gives me from the cab. Im on my third double bunk! Valmet, Timberjack, Ponsse...


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## earache (Jul 19, 2015)

056 kid said:


> Haha that ticket would have been quite a prize! The mill we cut for was just bought by northwest hardwoods. Previousely known as Shenandoah hardwoods. Those guys had more tricks to get $ than you would imagine. I guess northwest hardwoods they are out of the pnw. Nobody here jas a clue.. the loader operator basically asked me if the northwest was indeed in the northwest...


NWH has mills here in Wisconsin as well. I believe they are the largest hardwood lumber mill company in the United States. They buy a lot of log jobs around here, and are impossible to compete with for stumpage if they need wood. But, like I said to Wood Cutter, you can always go cut for them.


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## 1270d (Jul 19, 2015)

Which model forwarders?


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## earache (Jul 19, 2015)

1270d said:


> Which model forwarders?


646, 1110, Wisent


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## earache (Jul 19, 2015)

earache said:


> 646, 1110, Wisent


I posted a new thread regarding my forwarders so we can move away from Wood Cutters


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## bitzer (Jul 19, 2015)

earache said:


> That's why I do both man. Last year out of 100% of the wood I sold, 60% was logs and bolts. So, my chainsaw time is still pretty high relative to other mechanized pulpers. I like the break it gives me from the cab. Im on my third double bunk! Valmet, Timberjack, Ponsse...


Well that handcutting keeps ya honest anyway! I suppose its been two years now since I talked to you. I never send wood to the pulp mill anymore so I quit going to SFI meetings.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 27, 2015)

Hello Kid, here's a load crowding 10,000 bf. It was mostly cherry with some maple thrown in.


056 kid said:


> Gypo, can you show me a 10,000' load? I dont doubt you.
> Listen to this though, my current boss has been inc. For decades, not a dumb guy, mostly illiterate though. Anyhow, he can't hardly get 5,000 on a tractor & trailer grossing 83,000. Talking good logs stacked nice. Ive never scaled a load prior to them doing it, but he has to be getting screwed..
> 
> Oh yeah,"irregardless" not a word..


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## earache (Jul 27, 2015)

056 kid said: ↑
Gypo, can you show me a 10,000' load? I dont doubt you.
Listen to this though, my current boss has been inc. For decades, not a dumb guy, mostly illiterate though. Anyhow, he can't hardly get 5,000 on a tractor & trailer grossing 83,000. Talking good logs stacked nice. Ive never scaled a load prior to them doing it, but he has to be getting screwed..

Oh yeah,"irregardless" not a word..

056 kid, important to remember in Michigan they can do 162,000 gross. The pic gypo posted is a real good one. The truck pictured wouldn't be considered a big one in Michigan.


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## earache (Jul 27, 2015)

056 kid, here is a buddy of mine in the U. P. of Michigan. This load scaled 11,000mbf.


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## earache (Jul 27, 2015)

056 kid, here is another with logs and sawbolts on.


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## bitzer (Jul 28, 2015)

I wish we could haul em like that. Takes damn near three loads to get those numbers in oak.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 29, 2015)

NW hardwoods is indeed based out here. 

They had a "buyer" that really wanted to see your timber and really wanted to look at it before you cut... and then they would bid on it and take it out from under you.

The mill they had real local here got shut down... So they bought out Washington Alder and are now running it a little farther north.


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## earache (Jul 29, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> and then they would bid on it and take it out from under you.



yikes!!! would have a hard time selling to them. 10%


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 31, 2015)

Pretty sure, Ive had 70,000 pound payload payload on that tri axle truck and trailer. Hope to do it a few more times.


earache said:


> 056 kid said: ↑
> Gypo, can you show me a 10,000' load? I dont doubt you.
> Listen to this though, my current boss has been inc. For decades, not a dumb guy, mostly illiterate though. Anyhow, he can't hardly get 5,000 on a tractor & trailer grossing 83,000. Talking good logs stacked nice. Ive never scaled a load prior to them doing it, but he has to be getting screwed..
> 
> ...


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 31, 2015)

Nice looking wood. What species? Thought I saw some red elm.


earache said:


> 056 kid, here is a buddy of mine in the U. P. of Michigan. This load scaled 11,000mbf.
> View attachment 438052


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