# Knotless rigging (caribeaners)?



## Nailsbeats (Feb 28, 2009)

Dan and I have been talking about this subject and I thought it deserved it's own thread. 

I have been using steel krabs clipped into a bowline for rigging wood since I got them. I understand the impact danger and try to do what I can to mitigate it while still enjoying the ease and speed of the knotless game.

My question is, am I the only one using steel krabs to do this? What are ya'll using for this?

Sorry, I spelled caribiners wrong in the title.


----------



## (WLL) (Feb 28, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Dan and I have been talking about this subject and I thought it deserved it's own thread.
> 
> I have been using steel krabs clipped into a bowline for rigging wood since I got them. I understand the impact danger and try to do what I can to mitigate it while still enjoying the ease and speed of the knotless game.
> 
> ...


if you like doing it like this why not use chokers and slings instead of putting weird loads on the krabs. maby you could invent a bent krab so it fitts the wood better


----------



## joesawer (Mar 1, 2009)

No, you are not the only one doing it. 
I know lots of people who do.


----------



## John464 (Mar 1, 2009)

accident waiting to happen imo. I prefer knots, but would enjoy the extra efficiency if it didn't jeopardize safety. Although a running bowline can be tied in approx 5 seconds and un tied in about the same. How more efficient does knotless make you? 

Krabs are designed to support a load, they are not designed to be slammed on a trunk by a piece of impacting wood.

I havent ever done knotless rigging,except when speedlining, so I could be in the dark on the whole process.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Mar 1, 2009)

John464 said:


> accident waiting to happen imo. I prefer knots, but would enjoy the extra efficiency if it didn't jeopardize safety. Although a running bowline can be tied in approx 5 seconds and un tied in about the same. How more efficient does knotless make you?
> 
> Krabs are designed to support a load, they are not designed to be slammed on a trunk by a piece of impacting wood.
> 
> I havent ever done knotless rigging,except when speedlining, so I could be in the dark on the whole process.



I would say it takes half as long on average and throws and retrieves a lot easier. When I am climbing out for a tip tie I can clip the rigging rope and biner quickly on my saw biner instead of carrying the rope or holding it in my teeth. You aren't messing around setting knots, the rope comes up, throws around, quick clip/sinch and you are moving down or making the next cut.

I am not promoting this method to anyone, but it has worked well for me. With anything in treework, it has it's perameters and it's up to the user to make that call.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 1, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> if you like doing it like this why not use chokers and slings instead of putting weird loads on the krabs. maby you could invent a bent krab so it fitts the wood better



That was a thought but the rope bends just fine enough.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 1, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> I would say it takes half as long on average and throws and retrieves a lot easier. When I am climbing out for a tip tie I can clip the rigging rope and biner quickly on my saw biner instead of carrying the rope or holding it in my teeth. You aren't messing around setting knots, the rope comes up, throws around, quick clip/sinch and you are moving down or making the next cut.
> 
> I am not promoting this method to anyone, but it has worked well for me. With anything in treework, it has it's perameters and it's up to the user to make that call.



True enough, now lets talk about passing a re-belay.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Mar 1, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> if you like doing it like this why not use chokers and slings instead of putting weird loads on the krabs. maby you could invent a bent krab so it fitts the wood better



That would solve the "loading" issue on the krab. You would need to set one while the other is comming back. Once the rope is back it would be a clip and go. 

It would also move the krab away from the piece and possible in a safer position. It could still get hit, but it would be able to give. I carry 4 slings and krabs in a pouch on my saddle all the time for redirects, false crotches and taking multiple limbs in one rig set. 

A disadvantage to this is now that krab is exposed and liable to get caught in a pulling operation instead of tucked in to the limb allowing you to use all of the line all the time.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Mar 1, 2009)

treemandan said:


> True enough, now lets talk about passing a re-belay.



I don't know what that term defines Dan, fill me in.


----------



## D Mc (Mar 1, 2009)

John464 said:


> accident waiting to happen imo. I prefer knots, but would enjoy the extra efficiency if it didn't jeopardize safety. Although a running bowline can be tied in approx 5 seconds and un tied in about the same. How more efficient does knotless make you?
> 
> Krabs are designed to support a load, they are not designed to be slammed on a trunk by a piece of impacting wood.
> 
> I havent ever done knotless rigging,except when speedlining, so I could be in the dark on the whole process.




John, you are correct. Using carabiners as a choke termination to rig down wood is a very bad idea. The problem with it, is that it will work right up until the time it fails. And it is always at the most inconvenient time. 

Rigging wood necessitates a flexible, secure attachment. Biners are not flexible. Knotless rigging works very well for daisy-chaining multi limbs on a speed line where weight is not an issue. 

Nails, you are not the only one using this system for rigging wood. But this is not a safe method.

Dave


----------



## TDunk (Mar 1, 2009)

I just did a maple yesterday using biners. No probs. But i also used two biners on each choker. So i figured that the rope would break before the biners did. I thought it was ALOT quicker on my part and for the guys on the ground. I had two chokers made up so when they were lowering the limb i was setting my next choker. I only used that system for smaller loads, when taking down the spar, yes i used knots.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 1, 2009)

2 threads of how I use a knotless system with carabiners. I do have a spliced eye in the end of my lowering rope and use a 72kn Omega carabiner.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=46847

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=47587

Also this 9.75mb WMV

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/lowering.wmv

For those of you who dont use a sling and just a biner in the end of a lowering rope dont forget you can lessen the load on the biner by taking wraps around the part you are cutting.... two or three wraps makes a huge difference. Quite acceptable for lighter loads.

For those of you using the knotless system for top stropping (lowering block beneath cutting point) I'd be very surprised if you weren't putting some half hitches into the system prior to the sling/biner, ideally the lowering rope carries those half hitches.

I would rather a sling bash into the tree then my lowering rope, I'd prefer throwing out a sling then cutting off ends of my lowering rope due to crushed fibres. Using the knotless system means your slings are taking the beating, the carabiner isn't loaded poorly and is out of harms way in most cases, if not you toss it out and fit a new one.

In all the time I have rigged I have not once lost a load, broke a rope or smashed a biner, and tying knots does suck.


----------



## treesandsurf (Mar 1, 2009)

If you learn to rig using knots then there's no problem. Not to sound egotistical but tying a running bowline should be second nature for any climbing arborist, IMO. 

jp


----------



## Ekka (Mar 1, 2009)

LOL, you think because we knotless rig we didn't learn to tie knots or rig with them?

That is funny, and an assumption. :monkey:

One of the best advantages of knotless rigging isn't for the climber in the tree you know .... think of the ground crew.

Clip off the sling, lowering rope back up in the tree whilst you have already slung the next branch ... meanwhile your monkeys are still trying to get to the knot which is stuck underneath the load.  Then if the guy on the lowering rope had gloves on and is trying to untie it he gets the chits and has to toss his gloves off to unpick the knot.

The advantages are many.

*Knotless rigging .... new school, tying knots .... old school.​*


----------



## treesandsurf (Mar 1, 2009)

Ekka, my post was not directed towards you or anyone in particular. That was an assumption on your part! 

Plenty good climbers use knotless rigging; to each their own. 

jp


----------



## Ekka (Mar 1, 2009)

No worries, just to me it read that we're deficient by some means.

I have one end of my lowering line spliced the other not, sometimes a reversal means tying knots.

For really big stuff that's being top stropped tying knots will be the preferred method as slings get too long and do become a PITA ... a 3' dia tree needs a 10' sling and if you wanted to go twice around that's a 20' sling etc .... starting to be a PITA.


----------



## tree md (Mar 1, 2009)

D Mc said:


> John, you are correct. Using carabiners as a choke termination to rig down wood is a very bad idea. The problem with it, is that it will work right up until the time it fails. And it is always at the most inconvenient time.
> 
> Rigging wood necessitates a flexible, secure attachment. Biners are not flexible. Knotless rigging works very well for daisy-chaining multi limbs on a speed line where weight is not an issue.
> 
> ...



:agree2:

I have done it on speedlines and multiple limbs where weight is not an issue. If I am rigging down big wood I will use a knot every time.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 2, 2009)

I am going to hate myself for some time to come but... I agree with Ekka.

I use and recommend steel krabs for rigging using a double wrap around a limb before clipping on.

I would be interested to see scientific data that shows this to be any kind of risk. The benefits are increased time savings both climbing and on the ground, as well as superior throwing with a weighted end. 

I learned my climbing and rigging from an accomplished climber and teacher who himself switched to krabs over a decade ago. 

I have not seen many tree workers in Australia using knot-only rigging come to think of it. Perhaps that only works on the wrong side of the equator??


----------



## Nailsbeats (Mar 2, 2009)

Well, I got what I was looking for. Looks like there is no black and white on the issue, so I'll continue to use them as I see fit. Thanks for the replies fellas.


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 2, 2009)

If I understand the question correctly, we are talking about wrapping the rope around a branch or other chunk of wood to be cut off the tree and using a steel biner to secure the terminal end ( tied to the biner, or spliced ) back to the standing line. Yes, this will result in side bending loads on the biner. This is probably the weakest axis you can load the biner on. As someone said earlier " it will work till it fails". I would carefully check after each use for any signs of bending such as the gate not completely closing on its own. 
I think a better solution is to use a heavy clevis with a screw pin in place of the biner. Attach the rope to the clevis, wrap around the wood, and secure with the pin. No side loading problems, easy for groundcrew to undo, has throwing weight to boot. Just don't drop the pin. I know a guy that has done it this way for years. He swears by it.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've ever seen him tie a running bowline in a tree. No, I'm not talking about myself. I keep forgetting to put the dang clevis on my order list, so I'm still tying knots.
Rick


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 2, 2009)

Using a carabiner as a connector between a rope and a sling is good practice, using it as a choking connection puts it in an application counter to it's design. I've seen them open.

I used to advocate sling connections in rigging as faster for inexperienced groundmen to cycle the rigging line back. Then I figured out the Daisy-bo'lin I've talked about in the past, which some ArborMaster guys teach as a bunny-bo'lin.

Being a running slipknot, even the densest of labor types can figure out how to release the load after a few turns. "Just pull the friggin tail you useless waste of (insert favored expletive), how many time do I have to tell you!?!"


----------



## treesandsurf (Mar 2, 2009)

JPS, do you have any pictures or links for the 'bunny bowline'. I'm imagining a bowline with the last portion of the knot a bite rather than running the end of the line through? 

jp


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 2, 2009)

treesandsurf said:


> JPS, do you have any pictures or links for the 'bunny bowline'. I'm imagining a bowline with the last portion of the knot a bite rather than running the end of the line through?
> 
> jp



Why i call it a daisy is because it is a series of bights tied like a running bo'lin.

I'll try to find the pic's, but your smart enough you can figure it out yourself.


----------



## tree md (Mar 2, 2009)

When I daisy chain I use a series of claw hitches, I believe that's what it's called, it was taught to me as a "cross claw" and terminate with a running bowline. I have seen others terminate with a cross claw and use it just like a running bowline. It's a little more simple to tie and won't bind when loaded. The advantage of the running bowline over the cross claw is the groundie can pull the knot to him and untie it. Anyone who can't figure out how to untie a running bowline on my crew doesn't last long. I do use a biner on a sling and terminate with a knot to rig smaller stuff where weight is not an issue but for heavy wood I will use a block and tennex sling using a knot to choke everytime.


----------



## Mike Cantolina (Mar 3, 2009)

I use slings and biners up to about 9"-10" diam. A running bowline with a marlin when bigger than that. 

When I use a sling as a false crotch I often use a second one as a backup and redirect often.


----------



## Raymond (Mar 3, 2009)

:computer: I've considered this in the past. But then I don't think I would want to use it every time and I sure don't wanna set up two different ropes.
Here's one you can give me a hard time with.
I don't even know how to tie just a bowline. I use a running bowline on everything even right there in front of me. With a wrap around on the big wood.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 3, 2009)

Here is a pic of the daisy bo'lin tied. As you can see it is a series of bights passed through each other. 

Since the load is not on the lock of the knot, it will untie even after very heavy loads are worked.

The onlyntimes I've had problems is when I do not tie or dress one right on a strong pull.


----------



## Raymond (Mar 3, 2009)

QUOTE=John Paul Sanborn;1417660]Here is a pic of the daisy bo'lin tied. As you can see it is a series of bights passed through each other. 

Since the load is not on the lock of the knot, it will untie even after very heavy loads are worked.

The onlyntimes I've had problems is when I do not tie or dress one right on a strong pull.[/QUOTE]
:computer:So what's the reason for this knot? Not looking for trouble just a little education..ya know?


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 3, 2009)

VA-Sawyer said:


> If I understand the question correctly, we are talking about wrapping the rope around a branch or other chunk of wood to be cut off the tree and using a steel biner to secure the terminal end ( tied to the biner, or spliced ) back to the standing line. Yes, this will result in side bending loads on the biner. This is probably the weakest axis you can load the biner on. As someone said earlier " it will work till it fails". I would carefully check after each use for any signs of bending such as the gate not completely closing on its own.



Yes I regularly check my rigging equipment just as I check my climbing gear and in fact all my regular working tools. I think all competent professionals in high risk work places would do the same. 

Side loading on the krab? In order for *SIGNIFICANT* side loading to occur you would have to have to wrap only once, as each turn adds friction thus reducing load, and to exceed the wwl or swl or at very least approach the swl/wwl of the krabs. The steel krabs I use are simple screw locks with a 15kn side load rating. Can you give me an example where a double wrapped rope secured by spliced eye or knot would place a side load on a krab in excess of, or even approaching (3300lb)1500kg??

Whilst this in under discussion why are we talking about side loads on krabs? Unless there is slack in the rigging all my krabs are secured end to end. That is, tied at the bottom and locked on at the top. 

I am interested in the science being used here and if you give me a little time I am prepared to sacrifice a length of load bearing rigging line to test this theory. I suggest tying off to a serious tree stump and the back of my truck and hauling ass. What breaks first, the krab or the rope, should be interesting. I have little experience in setting up this sort of experiment but I am interested enough to give it go. Any suggestions would be welcome.


----------



## tree MDS (Mar 3, 2009)

No offense to anyone... but I agree with dans original opinion that a caribiner aint meant to get mashed into the trunk as in blocking down logs.

Why mess with it if it aint broken??

I'd hate to put a log through someones house and have all the other cackling old hen treeguys rolling with glee just because I didnt feel as though I had enough time to tie a bowline.

If I cant use it for everything safetly as with a half hitch and running bowline, then I've got no use for it.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 3, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> No offense to anyone... but I agree with dans original opinion that a caribiner aint meant to get mashed into the trunk as in blocking down logs.



This is getting repetitive but I will have to agree with Ekka twice in the same thread. Blocks are the reason God invented slings. To be frank, I rarely need to rig blocks as I have become adept at bombing straight on to bags, but the odd occasion where I do, then slings are going to be the order of the day.

The last time I put any significant load on my number 1 lowering line I retired all 45 metres of it and bought a new one. Not worth the risk of failure once it's shock loaded like that.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 3, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> What you are saying about the load on the biner being reduced is only true if what the rope is wrapped around can not rotate. When used for lowering the load does rotate and an equal load is placed on the rope and biner. It does not matter if the rope is wrapped a dozen times.....If the load can rotate it does.......and automatically equalizes the force on the biner and rope.
> 
> Tying your truck off to a stump will not be the same experiment as tying off to an object that can rotate!



Sorry TreeCo but I don't get this. Maybe it's just too late at night for me. How does the load rotating on its axis, if indeed it can, change the direction or vector of force? Are you talking about a block or a branch? If you mean blocks only please refer to the post above. If branches then clearly I am in need of enlightenment.

Could you provide a sketch of what you mean? This would really help. Thanks.


----------



## John464 (Mar 3, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The steel krabs I use are simple screw locks with a 15kn side load rating.



Why use a screw locking krab? Wouldnt a self locking krab be more ideal since the whole point of using a krab is to increase efficiency. To unscrew and screw takes longer than tying a knot. 

The same thing applies for using the combined sling and krab. It takes longer to loop a sling around a branch then snap the crab than it takes to tie a knot. Unless we are talking about taking multiple branches in one rig? Thats a whole other topic since the krabs positioning is different.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 3, 2009)

John464 said:


> Why use a screw locking krab? Wouldnt a self locking krab be more ideal since the whole point of using a krab is to increase efficiency. To unscrew and screw takes longer than tying a knot.
> 
> The same thing applies for using the combined sling and krab. It takes longer to loop a sling around a branch then snap the crab than it takes to tie a knot. Unless we are talking about taking multiple branches in one rig? Thats a whole other topic since the krabs positioning is different.



Maybe a picture of the Krabs I use would help but I can't figure out how you would think that an activity which requires two hands and concentration is faster than an activity that requires one hand and well, we can all screw without thinking about it right?

Slings are occasionally slower but the reason for them is not speed but protection of hauling rope. Big fat Tuarts just mash up rope and if you MUST rope down blocks slings are simple to set, simple to undo on the ground and cheaper to replace than top grade load bearing rope.

I use screw locks because, without word of a lie, self lockers make some groundies screw up their forehead in concentration and then explode. Seriously. You would think opening a 3 way was akin to solving the meaning of life......


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 3, 2009)

Ok. I think I see what you are getting at. So then the issue becomes one, not of the krabs strength but rather the effect of having a rope pass around a narrow object, (the krab), and the additional stress this places upon the inner radius of the rope at the point of contact. That makes perfect sense but would apply equally to a falling load or a constantly stressed load like the truck-pull experiment I suggested. As for the krab it self rotating so the load is "horizontal" rather than "vertical" as it was set, that is the point of double wrapping. The friction you gain ensures the rope doen't "slide" and also keeps the krab in its place.

Diagram soon please!


----------



## Highclimber OR (Mar 3, 2009)

I use it on occasion, however lately I have been using the OSHA standard "Running Bowline" especially in risky situations. I have had caribeaners come undone before so I tend to stray away from that. My dad loved em though especially later in his career mainly for the convenience. BTW sorry all for the offensive "O" word in my post.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 3, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I'm talking about any load that can rotate be it a block or branch. Think about it........wrapping a rope around an object and pulling produces a rotational force.......the only way it would not rotate is if it's a fixed object......or if an equal force is applied so it does not rotate. These rotating forces cancel out where the rope meets the biner on an object that can rotate.
> 
> You need enlightenment! Diagram on its way.



Another thought and then bed for me. Where the ropes contact each other is another "narrow object" similar to the krab. So at point of shock loading, the stress is still going to be passed to the rope, only this time in 2 locations rather than 1. Hmmm. I wonder if the ratio of shock has ever been measured accurately on different portions of a knotted rope.


----------



## John464 (Mar 3, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Maybe a picture of the Krabs I use would help but I can't figure out how you would think that an activity which requires two hands and concentration is faster than an activity that requires one hand and well




I'll agree with you on that. when you only have one hand free a screw locking krab would be faster than tying a knot, and a self locking would be even faster than that(if your groundies are properly trained)


----------



## Raymond (Mar 3, 2009)

John464 said:


> I'll agree with you on that. when you only have one hand free a screw locking krab would be faster than tying a knot, and a self locking would be even faster than that(if your groundies are properly trained)


Why would you ever only have one hand free?


----------



## John464 (Mar 3, 2009)

Raymond said:


> Why would you ever only have one hand free?



I dunno. Sounds like poor work positioning to me, but I can not say for sure. Perhaps outofmytree can answer. 

I personally bite a rope to free my other hand all the time


----------



## Raymond (Mar 3, 2009)

John464 said:


> I dunno. Sounds like poor work positioning to me, but I can not say for sure. Perhaps outofmytree can answer.
> 
> I personally bite a rope to free my other hand all the time


:agree2: If you have to hold on with one hand you're not using your rope and buckstrap at it's full potential.

Lay back, relax and whistle while you work.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## (WLL) (Mar 3, 2009)

Raymond said:


> Why would you ever only have one hand free?


if you leave your saddle on the ground


----------



## Raymond (Mar 3, 2009)

That's when I tie a rope to something above my head, (you can even leave it up in your roping crotch, with just a simple loop knot) throw the other end of the rope though a fork (don't have to be a big one) have a groundman pull the rope tight as I cut and it'll fold the limb, sliding it down right to him.

The closer I am to a roof or over the top of another smaller tree, etc. the more I use it.


----------



## Raymond (Mar 3, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> if you leave your saddle on the ground


LOL sounds like someone went around the block to many times that morning.


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 3, 2009)

Let me try this again. Maybe side loading isn't the proper term here. Here is how I was taught about biner loads.... 
"Proper loading" is pull applied along the long axis. Think of it as trying to stretch the biner out even longer than it started.

"Cross loading" is pull 90 degrees to proper loading and tries to turn the oval into a circle. 

"Side loading" tries to bend a biner so it looks like a *pringle* potato chip. To demo a side load, clamp a biner upright in a vise so about 3/4 of the biner is sticking out above the jaws. Now try to fold the biner over by pushing or pulling on the top.

The same "side load" is applied to the biner when it lays "flat" against a chunk of round wood. The wood makes contact in the center, but the ends of the biner are suspended in the air and not touching the wood. The smaller the diameter of the wood, then the more the ends are suspended above the wood. The rope is tied to one end of the biner , goes around the wood and passes through the other end of the biner. When tension is applied to the rope, it tries to bend the ends of the biner down towards the wood, while the wood is pushing up against the center of the biner. If the area of the wood where the biner is laying is fairly flat these bending loads are lower. However, if the biner is laying across a ridge, then the bending loads can be considerable. Maybe even enough to bend or break the biner. I haven't seen any "side loading" rating info for biners.
Note: The number of turns around the wood will increase the grip on the log, but it doesn't change the bending loads on the biner. If you don't belive me, rig it over your wrist with one turn and give it a good tug, then try 3 turns around the wrist. The biner will dig into your wrist about the same in both cases.
Dang! I wish I could do a few drawings to show what I'm trying to explain. It would be so much easier.
Rick


----------



## logantree (Mar 3, 2009)

I've never used a biner to rig, I always just use a running bowline and a half hitch, or two if needed. I'm going to teach any of my groundies how to untie a bowline before I leave the ground if they don't already know. I don't know how much quicker a biner would be, I can tie a running bowline with my eyes shut almost. I've done a lot of pretty heavy rigging over houses and plenty of other valuables, and never had a failure. Not saying biners are bad really, just don't know that I would want to use one over a house. opcorn:


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 3, 2009)

*Doesn't anybody use a timber hitch anymore ?*

All this talk about running bowlines. Sure, they work fine, but they don't cinch down to the branch as securely, and they can become difficult to untie when loaded.

I have almost completely abandoned bowlines, using the timber hitch instead, and I teach all my climbers to do the same. Put a full hitch in front of the timber hitch if it's going to be a heavy pull. Once they learn how to use it, all the people I have taught continue to prefer the timber hitch over the running bowline.

1. It's faster to tie than almost any other knot, even with the full hitch, although it does require "dressing" to hold properly. Just a yank, take out the slack, then cut!
2. It cannot be made to bind up, no matter how great the load.
3. Groundies can always figure it out, and it gets the rope back up the tree quicker.
4. Technically, it's a stronger knot, less likely to break.
5. If you are really into getting the job done fast, a timber hitch can be tied like a slip knot with reversing twists that come undone when the tail is yanked. I don't trust that too much, so I don't use it.
*
Nails (& Ekka)*: _You guys started (and added to) this thread, so I ought to put in my two cents worth. _

I don't quite see the advantage of slings & 'biners the way you do. Unless we are speed-lining the wood away from the drop zone, I think much more time is spent handling all the slings and 'biners by groundies and climber than they would if they just tied onto the branch. _Maybe we just aren't good enough to use that sophisticated stuff._

I have no problem putting a hitch on the branch then closing with a 'biner instead of using the timber hitch, at least on lighter stuff. Real light wood, just the 'biner to clip onto the branch is good for me, so at least I am not a purist about knots either. In fact, I started climbing using a 'biner on a splice at the end of my rope, and I dropped that in favor of using the timber hitch.

The earlier remark about using clevises sounds like insanity: they are strong, to be sure. But who wants to risk dropping the pin from 40' up. Clevises take both hands to screw together, too, unless you don't mind dropping pins.

This topic, as with so many other things at AS, has many widely different opinions on what works best. I like to hear everyone's ideas, so I put mine up for abuse too!


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 4, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> All this talk about running bowlines. Sure, they work fine, but they don't cinch down to the branch as securely, and they can become difficult to untie when loaded.
> 
> I have almost completely abandoned bowlines, using the timber hitch instead, and I teach all my climbers to do the same.
> ------------------------------------------
> ...


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 4, 2009)

I do like web slings too.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 4, 2009)

However, there's more than one way to skin a cat. 

And this configuration takes a lot of heat off the biner, do you not agree?


----------



## logantree (Mar 4, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> All this talk about running bowlines. Sure, they work fine, but they don't cinch down to the branch as securely, and they can become difficult to untie when loaded.



I don't have any problem with a timber hitch, but I have to say I've rigged a lot of pretty heavy stuff, and never had the bowline cinch up. I know I've done some static loading on my bull line that was at least 800-900 lbs., and like I said I've never had any trouble getting the bowline loose. 

I've never used a timber hitch to secure the load. I do use a timber hitch to secure my block though. Looks like a timber hitch for the load would take a bit longer to tie then the bowline. But hey, whatever works.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 4, 2009)

John464 said:


> I dunno. Sounds like poor work positioning to me, but I can not say for sure. Perhaps outofmytree can answer.
> 
> I personally bite a rope to free my other hand all the time



Whoa, way to misinterpret! I was simply comparing ease of use, not stating my method of climbing. I climb and teach my own climbers that if you MUST use 1 hand to rig you havent climbed up or out far enough.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for the diagram TreeCo. It seems you are talking about blocks based on what you drew. I said previously it is not my habit to rope down blocks.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 4, 2009)

John464 said:


> I personally bite a rope to free my other hand all the time





http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=22087


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 4, 2009)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Let me try this again. Maybe side loading isn't the proper term here. Here is how I was taught about biner loads....
> "Proper loading" is pull applied along the long axis. Think of it as trying to stretch the biner out even longer than it started.
> 
> "Cross loading" is pull 90 degrees to proper loading and tries to turn the oval into a circle.
> ...



Well explained mate. This is possibly an issue for krabs used on branches whose diameter is less than "length" of the krab, however for branches that small I cannot see how the shock generated could have any adverse affect on a steel biner. Even if such a small diameter branch weighed 100kg it would need to fall roughly 10 metres to generate 1000kg of force which is still only 6.5% of the krabs lowest rated capacity.

I started off in life in the metal industry and so have a decent grasp of the tensile strength of steel and aluminium. So far, I have not seen any reliable scientific data to support the elimination of krabs from rigging other than "its traditional". I am not saying knots are bad or that krabs are the "true way" but rather there is room for both in a well rounded arborists bag of tricks.

As a side note. It is interesting that after this thread started I asked a few local arborists and not one of them rigs on knots alone. It seems as though Australians favour krabs and Americans favour knots.


----------



## TDunk (Mar 4, 2009)

What i prefer to do is have a rope "choker" with a bowline on each end. Wrap around the limb once and then through the one end of the choker. I just use the biners to connect the lowering line to the choker. Keeps the biners from smashing into other trees, there's no side loading, and i can clip the lowering line to my harness until i'm ready for it (while i set the choker) instead of having it in my mouth.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 4, 2009)

Ekka said:


> However, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> And this configuration takes a lot of heat off the biner, do you not agree?



Whilst we are all doing pretty pictures, this is how I lock off branches of all sizes.






Nice and simple. Once around and once again then lock off and set.


----------



## (WLL) (Mar 4, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Whilst we are all doing pretty pictures, this is how I lock off branches of all sizes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tying the bowilne is just as fast, and you dont load the same knot load after load its also more safe to support the bowline with a marl or half hitch(what-ever its called) on the heavy stuff.


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 4, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> tying the bowilne is just as fast, and you dont load the same knot load after load its also more safe to support the bowline with a marl or half hitch(what-ever its called) on the heavy stuff.



YES! Well...almost. A timber hitch is faster than a bowline. But I still agree.

I haven't tracked down the reference yet, but what we are both referring to is best called "a hitch" or "a full hitch", even though it is structurally about the same thing as a 1/2 hitch.

The full wrap around the log (as drawn above) reduces the load on the carabiner by a little bit, but the full hitch will reduce the load by way more than 50%. A wild guess on my part would be that the hitch takes at least 75% of the load, and it is the single strongest structure that can hold a load with a rope except a straight line winding onto a windlass. 

From a nautical manual: "MARLING is winding any line round a rope, and securing every turn by a hitch, so that they may be independent of each other..."


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 4, 2009)

*I found a reference to the Marl or single hitch*

Just tie *one* of these on the loaded side of your carabiner, bowline, timber hitch, whatever. Then dare it to break your rope or shake loose.

http://www.realknots.com/knots/hitches.htm#marlsteek

Here is a great picture of rigging a spar with several hitches to protect the carabiner that secures the bitter end. (I personally think he over-did the rigging on that little chunk)


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 4, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Again.....the wrap you are taking around the limb or block is not lowering the load placed on the biner. It does not matter if it's a block or a limb or if you wrapped the rope dozen times. What you are doing only reduces the load on the biner if the piece can not rotate.
> 
> In Ekka's example the load on the biner is being reduced. In yours it is not.
> 
> ...




I agree the load is reduced in Ekka diagram.

I did not suggest there was any reduction in my own technique I simply drew it so you could see exactly how it was being done and dissect it for comment. The two wraps or occasionally three is for grip on the branch not to reduce krab fatigue.

Once again you talk about side loading as though it was proven to damage the krab at ANY load rather than any EXTREME load. Numbers are really important here mate. Can you find any reliable data that talks about the load required to induce even the smallest distortion in a steel krab?

Most important point. I appreciate all the information posted so far. One of the best parts of a trade forum is the ability to get many different opinions on the same thing.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 4, 2009)

Raymond said:


> So what's the reason for this knot?



An unskilled groundman, or a groundman in heavy gloves, can untie this not with ease.

On the rare occasion that I have to retie a load or change balance/load direction, I just have to reach out and pull the tail.

It can be ties with a very long tail, without having to pass the tail through the rest of the knot for proper dress/set.


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 4, 2009)

Ekka said:


> However, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> And this configuration takes a lot of heat off the biner, do you not agree?



I'm liking this a lot I'm going to try it tomorrow. Looks super fast.


----------



## (WLL) (Mar 4, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> I'm liking this a lot I'm going to try it tomorrow. Looks super fast.


looks OK too me as-well. remember to used a spliced line to lower the risk and maintain more strength


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 4, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> looks OK too me as-well. remember to used a spliced line to lower the risk and maintain more strength



Will too! I ordered my ready spliced velocity today BTW didn't want to get the SJ and have nothing to play on it with! ( remembering what you said about the Corvette and the skinny spare wheels!).


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 4, 2009)

Ekka !

Clip that carabiner (shown in your drawing re-posted above) to the loop around the standing line, and you will be doing what I have been suggesting all along.

And you will be reducing the load on the 'biner. And it's not ANY harder, because you're right there clipping it to a rope anyway. Just pick the best one available.


Oooh! I wish I knew how to edit your drawings !


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 5, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Ekka !
> 
> Clip that carabiner (shown in your drawing re-posted above) to the loop around the standing line, and you will be doing what I have been suggesting all along.
> 
> ...



How about you draw one of your own. I think i know what you mean but i would like to see for sure before comment.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 5, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Ekka !
> 
> Clip that carabiner (shown in your drawing re-posted above) to the loop around the standing line, and you will be doing what I have been suggesting all along.
> 
> ...



LOL, like this, great idea ... that's another skinned cat!


----------



## Raymond (Mar 5, 2009)

Ekka said:


> LOL, like this, great idea ... that's another skinned cat!


LL Yeah but now you're getting to the point were a bowline or running bowline would be damn near just as quick.


----------



## John464 (Mar 5, 2009)

Raymond said:


> LL Yeah but now you're getting to the point were a bowline or running bowline would be damn near just as quick.




Much quicker than that!


----------



## Raymond (Mar 5, 2009)

John464 said:


> Much quicker than that!


Beside I find myself switching end of the rope to often.

And the first time I would have to run to the top of a tree and unstick a biner, would be the last.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 5, 2009)

Ekka said:


> LOL, like this, great idea ... that's another skinned cat!



Food for thought. Got an e.Maculata removal tomorrow with lots of rigging required. The test of good rigging techniques imo, is how well you can do them when you're hot and tired and just want to go home. This should be interesting.


----------



## tree MDS (Mar 5, 2009)

Ya all may pry my old taughtline from my fingers one day soon...but try that with the bowline and we got us a fight! lol.

I'll bet I can tie a bowline in less than five seconds no prob.


----------



## John464 (Mar 5, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> When the block of wood gets laid on the ground it's not going to be very easy to undo either.



yup anything more than one wrap will sometimes require two men on the ground just to get it untied. One guy lifting the branch/log and the other untieing. Or cuting it small enough to untie the wraps. 

This thread is a lesson in new age techniques slowing you down.

And whoever described that krab as becoming a Pringle Potatoe Chip was a good description. Ya'll krab riggers once you pop you can't stop even if it means slowing production and increasing risk.


----------



## teamtree (Mar 5, 2009)

I know this is dumb...but what is a "Krab"?

I use nylon loop runners and a slideline carabiner in tandem with a small pulley and a climbing rope for small rigging.

When the wood gets a bit bigger we go with bull ropes and knots. The thing with knotless rigging is I can have three set ups ready to go and the guys on the ground can just unclip and send the rope up. It is pretty fast when you are working in a good rhythm. 

Depending on my ground guy the knotless works great for those not able to understand the knot they are trying to untie.

I would not say there are any great efficiency from one method to another.

I can tie a bowline about as fast as anyone else.


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 5, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> Ya all may pry my old taughtline from my fingers one day soon...but try that with the bowline and we got us a fight! lol.
> 
> I'll bet I can tie a bowline in less than five seconds no prob.



Bet I can tie a timber hitch in three!:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 5, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> I'm liking this a lot I'm going to try it tomorrow. Looks super fast.



I used it today but the biggest timber was 8 inches so it wasn't a real test. I have to say the biner didn't look like it was being tugged about to much. It was nice to try something different. I didn't like using my nice spliced eye rope for rigging though so quickly reverted back to usual business on the correct rope....... & timber hitch.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 6, 2009)

So many one eyed people, make sure you dont hire them, limited mindset=limited skillset. :monkey:


----------



## LTREES (Mar 6, 2009)

ekka said:


> so many one eyed people, make sure you dont hire them, limited mindset=limited skillset. :monkey:



lol.......oh it hurts.......


----------



## tree MDS (Mar 6, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> Bet I can tie a timber hitch in three!:biggrinbounce2:



You sure we're talking about the same knot??

How many "tucks" do you put on your timber??


----------



## Raymond (Mar 6, 2009)

You guy have me wanting to time my running bowline knot now. 
I'll get someone soon to time me and tell ya what it took.

Bet it's under 5 seconds. I know I can do it with my eyes closed. I'll even time that.


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 6, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> With all of that rope around the lowered piece as slack is taken up there is going to be a lot of rope on rope friction, NOT GOOD!......way more than a marl and running bowline or marl and timber hitch.
> 
> What a cluster rig it's become!
> 
> When the block of wood gets laid on the ground it's not going to be very easy to undo either.



If you look at the drawing closely, you will recognize that it IS a marl (or a single hitch) with a carabiner (Krab) closing a loop on the bitter end, exactly like a timber hitch with a marl in front.

I suppose the biggest difference is that I always put a bit of distance between my timber hitch and the marl, as pictured way up this thread.

I don't see all the rope-on-rope friction happening as a problem, unless the rigging is left loose or you are loading the rope to extreme limits.

I just prefer the timber hitch over 'biners because it's less equipment to use, it's stronger, and I don't have to worry about dressing the knot/rigging too much to get it right. You don't use exactly the same part of the rope each time you tie, either.

If you close with a carabiner, you must work the rigging backwards to take out the slack. This will be a loss of time! Closing with a carabiner requires that you pull out the slack and work backward through your marl (if you are using one!) to get the tension right. Even a bowline once tied would require this step.

The timber hitch can be pulled tight from the tail, eliminating much of the extra tensioning steps.


----------



## murphy4trees (Mar 6, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Even if such a small diameter branch weighed 100kg it would need to fall roughly 10 metres to generate 1000kg of force which is still only 6.5% of the krabs lowest rated capacity.
> 
> I would check your math there... 10'... not 10 metres, to generate 10x the force.. Though I understand those equations have been revised and the forces may be even greater... especially for drops over 5'..
> 
> ...


----------



## Ekka (Mar 6, 2009)

:chatter:

Yawn.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 7, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Well explained mate. This is possibly an issue for krabs used on branches whose diameter is less than "length" of the krab, however for branches that small I cannot see how the shock generated could have any adverse affect on a steel biner. Even if such a small diameter branch weighed *100kg it would need to fall roughly 10 metres *to generate 1000kg of force.



Apologies all for this typo on my part. It is correct that an object falling gains roughly 100% of its mass for every *FOOT* it falls. I am so used to typing in metres and kilograms I missed the translation. Thanks for spotting this Murphy.

That said, I still havent seen anything except "I do it this way because I was taught this way" arguments. I havent bothered to time myself but if you take a krab (carabiner) and swing it underhand onto a branch it wraps itself around twice in no more than second. Could it take 4 seconds to open and close a screw gate?? Exactly how much shockload do you think a steel krab will get when locking off a rated hauling rope in the manner drawn previously?

Treeco I asked you to provide information to support *YOUR* argument. Thats how its done in debate. I have told you exactly what I do and the items used and provided the load rating for the krab. I am asking you to provide any data to support your as yet unproved theory that the shockload in a typical branch removal using a rated hauling rope, a rated pulley and a porta wrap will "bend" a krab. I have looked and can't find any data that suggest this is possible or even likely. I could use the argument that I have done hundreds even thousands of drops using this technique but you would say the same about knots and we are back to square one.


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 7, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Actually man on occasion I've used biners in the fashion you are describing for almost 20 years! I just don't use them for heavy loads. Before I was using biners I've even done it using non locking climbing snaps.(remember them?)A technique I like better than what you are doing is to use a sling and a biner with a bowline in the end of the rope. Wrap the sling around the limb and clip the biner into the bowline. Often I can catch several small limbs at once and lower them as a 'cluster'.
> 
> I've got a new use for old biners. In the barn out back I'm using one to bridge the gap in a fuse box that has been damaged and no longer will hold a fuse.
> 
> ...




That's a novel approach. You could always try the more direct response of "actually I can't prove you wrong but I will go on believing it because!!!!"...


----------



## Ax-man (Mar 7, 2009)

I am not into rigging with biners being used in place of a bowline. It looks like Ekka may have worked around the issue a little with his drawings but I sure wouldn't want to have to undo that method with a big piece of wood laying on the ground or on top of a pile of lowered logs. Too much pulling of rope from underneath the log. 

Loops made out of Tennex with a biner connection to the lowering rope work good for the smaller stuff. Once the brush is off the tree and all that is left is the wood to be lowered a bowline works good. No need to really untie the knot. Just pull some slack and slip it off the end and send the knot back up tied and slip it back over the next piece. What is so hard about doing that?? The only time you need to untie the knot is if the piece is too big for one person to move or is tied in the middle and needs to pulled out from underneath the work piece.

Larry


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 7, 2009)

What is tennex??


----------



## Ax-man (Mar 7, 2009)

I put an extra --n -- in the name by mistake

http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?rope=174


----------



## outofmytree (Mar 7, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Eye-Slings-For-Blocks-/std_Islg_tenex_12
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes it did.  That and the couple or six beers I have guzzled. It looks like the same material my whoopies are made of. Come to think of it the sling we use for the porta wrap looks to be made of the same stuff too. Tough stuff.


----------



## TreeTopKid (Mar 7, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Yes it did.  That and the couple or six beers I have guzzled. It looks like the same material my whoopies are made of. Come to think of it the sling we use for the porta wrap looks to be made of the same stuff too. Tough stuff.



It is I love whoopies, and use them for a multitude of uses. My favorite being using as and anchor for ratchets to straighten windblown trees. There was so much big timber down people were walking away from straightening small trees after the last big storm. I devoted two days to it and made a pile. Without the whoopies it would have been a much slower process. Those things are super strong.


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 7, 2009)

Ax-man said:


> ...No need to really untie the knot. Just pull some slack and slip it off the end and send the knot back up tied and slip it back over the next piece. What is so hard about doing that?? The only time you need to untie the knot is if the piece is too big for one person to move or is tied in the middle and needs to pulled out from underneath the work piece.
> 
> Larry



Good point. I had never considered that. Partly because I always use a full hitch in addition to whatever knot or 'biner I am using to close the loop. Shorter logs can't fall out, no matter how much they bounce around. Sometimes a simple choker loop falls off the end of the falling chunk of wood.

Oops!


----------



## ropensaddle (Mar 29, 2010)

What I saw Ekka in your vid I like endless loops but I would be a little closer to the butt to prevent getting clobered when the groundie can't lower fast enough or read your mind. I started getting closer to the butt after a nice limb gave me a kick to a rather private place years ago. I will only tie out in tip tie butt heavy scenarios since or with a balance line added when necessary that is usually tag lined as well!


----------

