# Fiber pull in hardwoods?



## SmokinDodge (Jul 7, 2007)

I've read Dent's book on falling and follow it to a T when I'm cutting. It has served me well in what l have had a chance to apply. Dent suggests that most trees be felled with a hinge and a face cut similar to a birds beak, to boil it down to basic terms.

I only cut firewood right now but I would like to start getting some logs to have milled. My question is are the procedures that are given by Dent also followed in hard wood logging? My property has White and Red Oak, Hickory and Ash.

The reason I ask is an old fella I did some work with years ago showed me how he wanted me to fell his trees he was to get milled. Crazy SOB chased a 22" DBH Red Oak right off the stump with only a kerf for a face cut. I know it can be done this way and is dangerous and costly (damage to others trees and NO control of the tree). He explained that it HAD to be done this way to avoid fiber pull (not the term he used but what he meant) because that would cull a tree in a hurry. I've since seen some posts and a few pics dealing with hardwoods and most said that fiber pull was unaceptable.

Thanks,

SD


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## Buzz 880 (Jul 7, 2007)

SmokinDodge said:


> I've read Dent's book on falling and follow it to a T when I'm cutting. It has served me well in what l have had a chance to apply. Dent suggests that most trees be felled with a hinge and a face cut similar to a birds beak, to boil it down to basic terms.
> 
> I only cut firewood right now but I would like to start getting some logs to have milled. My question is are the procedures that are given by Dent also followed in hard wood logging? My property has White and Red Oak, Hickory and Ash.
> 
> ...



Who ever cut hardwood and just put kerf cut in front has no idea on what there are doing or is just plane crazy.I have never read Dent's so i don't know what it tells you book but i know that you can cut hard wood with conventional notch and not have any fiber pull.If you are worried about fiber pull bore cut it so you know that you won't have to much hinge wood or just the right amount then there shouldn't be any pull.But even the best of us put a little pull in the odd one shi.t just happens some times.


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## joesawer (Jul 7, 2007)

I have worked with a lot of fallers in the east who use a powerful saw with a short bar and an aggressive chain, who do what you described. A very fast cutting saw is essential for it to work. It is easy to discredit them and very hard to duplicate their results. It is more of an art than a repeatable technique. They put a lot of trees on the ground, but most of them consider smashed saws and stray trees a given.
Fiber pull, broken, split, mismanufactured, or any other faller related error costs every one money so there is a lot of pressure not to do it. Fiber pull happens, but it should be a small percentage of the time. 
If you are not comfortable with a cutting technique you should not use it. If you are cutting a few trees for your own use and you loose a few board feet to fiber pull it is better than loosing life or limb. As your skills improve you can work up to smaller hinges and narrower face cuts. 
Remember, every tree you fall, even small ones, you are betting your life on your skills.


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## Sprig (Jul 7, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> Who ever cut hardwood and just put kerf cut in front has no idea on what there are doing or is just plane crazy.I have never read Dent's so i don't know what it tells you book but i know that you can cut hard wood with conventional notch and not have any fiber pull.If you are worried about fiber pull bore cut it so you know that you won't have to much hinge wood or just the right amount then there shouldn't be any pull.But even the best of us put a little pull in the odd one shi.t just happens some times.


Yup, you and Joe say it best, in a properly cut tree 'fiber pull' will be near non-existant, the comment on 'just a kerf cut' is not just silly but sounds dumb and dangerous imho as y'all have pointed out, an accident waiting ta bite, sheesh! :monkey: 

 & safe cuttin' Fellers!

Serge


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## Buzz 880 (Jul 7, 2007)

I fall hardwood for a living usually around 60 to 100 tree's a day depends if there is one or two skidders pull off of me.And the only guy i have ever seen fall timber with just a kerf cut in the front is my old boss he said if the tree had just a slight lean you had a sharp saw it could be done.But i seen him blow apart alot more tree's that way then anyone else.If it was me just stick to the conventional way and you will be fine.


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## sILlogger (Jul 8, 2007)

well i have to admit, if a tree is nothing specail(not grade) or it isn't leaning hard, or i don't have to do anything special with it. i will sometimes sink the 660 it it and walk a circle around the tree-no notch, just put it on the ground, don't do this if u haven't done it many many times or if the tree is small enough cut in the front, cut in the back tree falls. (call this a match cut-not for the faint of heart-have to stay with it till the end, i usually chase them all the way off the stump with no wood left holding) if i need to swing a tree i will cut a notch in intended direction and cut one side of it all the way off and chase it around to the other side-can really change directions with them this way (call this a notch cut) trees that i need to cut a notch out of and bore out i will typically use a double side bore hinge cut as i call it(leave 2 ears on the corners of the notch) and cut the holding wood across the back-also use this on trees that i pull or push over with the skidder. hard leaners-too hard to change direction, or high grade trees with a desirable intended falling direction i will spur cut-bore out the heart, leave holding wood in front and back, cut front holding wood and get saw out before it pinches the bar, cut the back holding wood-allows the tree to fall with no fiber pull-or if i need the tree to jump off the stump, for instance to go down the hill to lessen the distance the tree has to fall to keep it from splitting or to make it easier for the skidder to get to it. 

i would have to say that ash is one of the most dangerous hardwoods to cut because it will explode in a heartbeat, hickory will split all to h*ll if u let it 2

Notch cut-on a red oak, cut a notch and walk around tree, a slight amount of wood was left to pull the tree in intended direction





Double side bore hinge cut on water oak-note 2 ears at the corners of the face cut the left one is even with my right knee the other one pulled the root up out of the ground




Spur cut on a grade white oak, no fibre pull


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## SmokinDodge (Jul 8, 2007)

SILL, thanks for the great pics!  

If you ever have another opportunity to post more pics please do so. It's interesting to have read the sugested way of cutting and being able to "talk" to fellers curently in the field and to find out what works for them.

That old feller told me years ago , "If it's on the ground and no one is under it you felled it right." It didn't set too well with me then and I guess it still doesn't, I'm always looking for a better way I guess.


I might suggest that if anyone hasn't read Dent's book that they get a copy with their next Bailey's order. It's probably old hat to a lot of you but if nothing else the pics of some of the worksites are unreal. (At least to this midwestern-er)


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## sILlogger (Jul 8, 2007)

Smokin what part of MO u from, i might not be all that far form u??


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## SmokinDodge (Jul 8, 2007)

Tipton, just 45 minutes west of Jeff City. 

Call before you come, it's a haul to my place!


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## sILlogger (Jul 8, 2007)

im about 35 minutes east of Cape, how far would that be from you?


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## SmokinDodge (Jul 8, 2007)

joesawer said:


> Remember, every tree you fall, even small ones, you are betting your life on your skills.



Definately, it's just something I was thinking about driving to work, oddly enough. I'll be danged if a tree is worth as much as me though!



Buzz 880 said:


> I fall hardwood for a living usually around 60 to 100 tree's a day depends if there is one or two skidders pull off of me.And the only guy i have ever seen fall timber with just a kerf cut in the front is my old boss he said if the tree had just a slight lean you had a sharp saw it could be done.But i seen him blow apart alot more tree's that way then anyone else.If it was me just stick to the conventional way and you will be fine.



Buzz you must be a busy fella! 

As for this old fella I told you about earlier, you have to know him. Good ol boy with wisdom beyond his years and cahojens that clink when he walks. That said I still don't stand very close when he's working with a saw.


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## SmokinDodge (Jul 8, 2007)

sILlogger said:


> im about 35 minutes east of Cape, how far would that be from you?



273 miles. I told ya it's a haul. 

We are going to finally be putting fence around our 80 acres this fall. It's been in timber for 80+ years so there is bound to be some good ones in there. With Oak prices the way they are I think I'll be better served to mill some lumber and build a barn than try to sell right now.


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## Buzz 880 (Jul 8, 2007)

SmokinDodge said:


> Definately, it's just something I was thinking about driving to work, oddly enough. I'll be danged if a tree is worth as much as me though!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The old fella sounds like my old boss he has been falling timber for 35 years and doesn't have much fear of anything in the bush.I admitt i have cut the odd tree that way but nothing to big 12-14 inch i am not real fond of the idea.Most because of the risk of barber chair and the direction of fall the skidder guys like the tree's but to the machine most of the time but if not top.With the kerf cut it will only go the way the tree is leaning just my reasoning not to use it.Or maybe my balls aren't hard enough yet  .As for your oak if things there are the same as here you would be best to saw the saw logs but if nice timber pull the veneer and sell it that will probaly pay for the milling of the saw logs prices here are bad.The guy i working for right now is doing that with all the oak it's hard to believe that oak isn't worth anything anymore a few years ago we could get big bucks for it.


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## Buzz 880 (Jul 8, 2007)

sILlogger said:


> well i have to admit, if a tree is nothing specail(not grade) or it isn't leaning hard, or i don't have to do anything special with it. i will sometimes sink the 660 it it and walk a circle around the tree-no notch, just put it on the ground, don't do this if u haven't done it many many times or if the tree is small enough cut in the front, cut in the back tree falls. (call this a match cut-not for the faint of heart-have to stay with it till the end, i usually chase them all the way off the stump with no wood left holding) if i need to swing a tree i will cut a notch in intended direction and cut one side of it all the way off and chase it around to the other side-can really change directions with them this way (call this a notch cut) trees that i need to cut a notch out of and bore out i will typically use a double side bore hinge cut as i call it(leave 2 ears on the corners of the notch) and cut the holding wood across the back-also use this on trees that i pull or push over with the skidder. hard leaners-too hard to change direction, or high grade trees with a desirable intended falling direction i will spur cut-bore out the heart, leave holding wood in front and back, cut front holding wood and get saw out before it pinches the bar, cut the back holding wood-allows the tree to fall with no fiber pull-or if i need the tree to jump off the stump, for instance to go down the hill to lessen the distance the tree has to fall to keep it from splitting or to make it easier for the skidder to get to it.
> 
> i would have to say that ash is one of the most dangerous hardwoods to cut because it will explode in a heartbeat, hickory will split all to h*ll if u let it 2
> 
> ...


Hey sill are you able to work again hope things have dried up down there for you just wondering that stuff you call water oak is it the same as our red oak it sure looks just like it.


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## joesawer (Jul 8, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> Hey sill are you able to work again hope things have dried up down there for you just wondering that stuff you call water oak is it the same as our red oak it sure looks just like it.



What many people call water oak is a type of red oak. There are probably a couple dozen different kinds of red oak.


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## Buzz 880 (Jul 8, 2007)

joesawer said:


> What many people call water oak is a type of red oak. There are probably a couple dozen different kinds of red oak.



Oic here there all kinds of oak but only one red oak.The stuff that i have seen post on here as water oak looks just like our red oak.


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## sILlogger (Jul 8, 2007)

what i call water oak is actually Pin Oak which looks alot like schumard oak, which is in the red oak family, along with black oak, , northern red, southern red, black, blackjack, cherrybark, shingle. yada yada yada...


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