# Newbie - selling timber & sustaining a small woodlot



## Treetop_Tom (Mar 30, 2005)

Hello, all!

This is similar to the "Selling to Mills" thread, and so an admin is welcome to move things there if they see fit.

In the past year, I have purchased about 5-1/4 ac of land adjacent to my original 1/2 acre home site. On this land are about 10 black walnut trees in various stages of maturity. There is at least one with a 24" diameter, straight for a good distance (16-20'), as well as other smaller diameter trunks that are straight for as much as 30'. I've been told that these can be quite valuable ($1k - $5K per tree, generally), and that often they are taken stump and all for gun stocks, etc. My general intention for the property is to have a sustainable source of firewood & a bigger yard.

There are also a number of mature wild cherry, including one yard tree (I've been reading here!) with a 30" diameter trunk & about 85' overall height, straight for 12' or so before the first split (diameters are measured, heights are eyeballed).

Finally, there are quite a number of spruce and pine that are at least 30 years old.

(BTW I'm not trying to use this as a "selling" post. I need info about selling Also, I don't have visions of retiring to a private island from this - I just hate to see the trees used for firewood, which is the best I could do with them.)

Now I generally like trees and would not take them down if they did not pose a threat to life & property. The big walnut and the cherry in my yard would cause truly catastrophic damage if they fell in the normal manner of trees around here. They will have to be felled by someone who can climb. The spruces & pine that I don't want I can take down myself if that's the best way to handle things.

So how do I go about selling these without being "taken"? I've already been told it would cost $1100 to put the yard cherry on the ground, but at least the main log would be in a 'reachable' position.

Also would I do well to offer the spruce & pine? What does all this go for? Sheesh, I think I'll just post this for now and save the rest of the questions for later... If I can just get an overview...

Thanks all,

Tom


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## Newfie (Mar 30, 2005)

*Mixed messages*

hey Tom,

Welcome to AS. Take what i have to see as an attempt at being helpful, not an attack.


You could probably get some value out of your very small woodlot, but not a ton. In my experience, it costs money to move equipment and to move logs. The smaller the parcel being worked, the smaller the margins become. Homeowner "straight" are often not logger straight and even less often sawmill straight yielding large payouts. A lot of people think their trees are worth big bucks and if you know some ask them who did the work for them and how much they got paid. A lot of things factor into what you get paid for your wood. Things like accessibility and trucking costs to the mill.

You talk about sustaining your woodlot. I'm not sure you will have much woodlot left after 4 or 5 years of removing top sized trees and even a cord or two of firewood a season. Maybe I'm wrong, it's hard to tell without seeing the woodlot.

You say that you generally like trees but want to rid your yard of the ones that can damage your home. If they are in such a condition that they could fail, then they certainly will not yield quality sawtimber.


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## Treetop_Tom (Mar 30, 2005)

Hi, Newfie.

Yes I'm aware of the disadvantages of small lots, both from an equipment mobilization standpoint and from "what will the neighbors think" about big equipment moving in. (Thus the talk of horse logging has piqued my attention as well.) I agree, I don't expect to get a ton of value out of it. But even some value, and not having good trees wasted, would be satisfying. Shoot, I've even given thought to seeing if I could get some of the walnut back and have a Mennonite clockmaker I know make it into a grandfather clock, just for the novelty of having a clock made from my own wood.

I don't know anyone who's had logging work done in our area. 

The trees I mentioned are healthy. But we've had several violent microbursts around here in the last few years that have ripped huge, but very healthy trees right out of the ground. Lightning is also a hazard. For the walnut, it's crown is all toward my house, and the trunk leans slightly that way as well. The cherry would do major damage no matter which way it goes.

As to "straight," etc., that's one thing I want to do- learn how to evaluate a tree so someone can't say it's worth X when it's actually worth 3X, or something like that. I'm an engineer, so I can easily calculate the gross volume and then throw in a generous waste factor, but I know there are standardized ways to do this.

Finally, I'll be aggressively re-planting. I anticipate my wood usage to be 1 cord/yr or less. I did read somewhere that with careful management one can heat a home with three acres. They may be wrong, of course, but I sure see a lot of tress up there.

Thanks for the feedback, and no, I didn't see it as an attack.

Tom


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## clearance (Mar 30, 2005)

Treetop-These 2 trees in your yard cause you concern with valid reason (similar trees falling from violent storms), so cut them down. Many people on this site have attacked me for my lack of hesitation to cut down trees that pose a significant hazard, but the trees they want to save are never going to kill them or squash thier houses. I call them treehuggers because they put trees before peoples safety or bigtime property damage. "When in doubt-take it out" I am a certified utility arborist, I do treework around powerlines and I have seen all kinds of destruction when "lovely" trees failed. When you want to do a little logging, try to make up enough wood to make a full load on a short haul truck. I do land clearing all the time and I just love it, but this sounds like a nice place, so be carefull about getting to much merch. cause you can't put it back. Leave the spruce and pine trees alone unless they need to be thinned a little for the health of the stand. They are really to small to log now. If a self loading log truck with a winch can get near those walnuts, take a few to make a load with the trees from your house. Here the log length minimum is 18'6" so try to get those lengths from the trees in the yard. You should be able to get the preferred bucking specs. from the mill the logs will go to. As for firewood, cut the trees that matter the least first, maybe you can get wood elsewhere.


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## Newfie (Mar 30, 2005)

Treetop_Tom said:


> Thanks for the feedback, and no, I didn't see it as an attack.Tom



Cool, some people would have just because I didn't have much positive "atta boy" reinforcement to offer.


There is a lot to assessing the value of a log. Beyond being straight and sound it will be graded based upon the number of clear faces(4CF = the best) of a log that are devoid of natural defects such as knots,limbs,wounds,rot etc. With yard trees you might be lucky to break even) but most likely not as there is a lot more complicated labor and time involved in dismembering a tree to avoid collateral damage as opposed to logging it.

It might be worth your while to contact the forester at the local extension office and see what he can suggest for a cutting plan, etc. Logging techniques vary from region to region and B.C. is about as far awayfrom Northeast logging norms as can be. Another option might be to look into a local person with a woodmizer type milling operation.

I'm also a landclearer by trade, but don't see trees as the weed that Clearance seems to.  I don't like to hug trees either.


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## Treetop_Tom (Mar 31, 2005)

clearance, Newfie,

Tree hugging - I was hugging the walnut the other day just to get an idea of it's circumference. Does that count?  

Hmm. I will try the local forester, he's already suggested trees for replanting, but he didn't know I may have commerically usable stuff. Hey, if I break even, I've solved a real problem at no cost to me, right? So, what's a load on a short haul truck? What IS a short haul truck? An what's a woodmizer? I can run a saw pretty well (Huskie 359), but past that, this is all new to me.

Oh, and some of the spruce & Norway pine have to come down. One of them fell on my house during the rainfall from Ivan last year, and they are in the way of a nice view and some grading I want to do. Plus, opening the land to more sunlight will allow me to clean things up and get some nicer trees going. But I understand that burning pine in a fireplace is a grand way to cresote the chimney and get a chimney fire going, so I don't know what to do with it.

And now I'll try to be the great peacemaker. Newfie, if you saw how people around here plant trees KNOWING they'll sooner or later get into the power lines, you might understand clearance's outlook. My trees either predate the power lines (and my residency here) or are well away from them.

On the other hand, we had a large tract up over the hill from our place that was cleared by savages, apparently. I've seen tornados do neater work. Okay, sooner or later all things living will die, and I have no qualms about the legitmate use of hardwood, but these idiots ruined a beautiful tract of mature growth for the sake of making the biggest buck they could. Tops were left, stumps were left, some overturned, and the wild vine and brambles that flourish around here without management has made the place an absolute mess, and nearly impassable. There's clearing, and then there's clearing, you know? I do know the lady that owned that land, and I know she didn't care if it was raped, as she doesn't live in the area anymore. All she wanted was max cash.

Hey, thanks again for the advice. It's nice chatting.

Tom


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## Newfie (Mar 31, 2005)

Tom, 

It might be worth your while then to contract the services of a consulting forester that represents your interests and goals if the county guy is a dud like he sounds to be. He can make a management plan for you, line up someone to do the harvesting and line up a mill or log broker to buy the logs. A lot of people see the forester as just another hand in the cookie jar but I have seen good foresters make more money for the client even after the fee and the end result is a more sustainable woodlot. You want to make sure that the forester is working for you alone and does not have a conflicting interest by steering you towards a logger or mill that he represents.

Fwiw, leaving tops on a logging job is SOP in almost all cases. Landclearing for building is different. If you want tops and brush handled, that is going to cut into the bottom line obviously.

A short haul truck is probably what we refer to as a triaxle. It's a truck w/ a grapple designed to load and haul logs. A triaxle load can usually carry 3500 -4500 BF(board feet) in a load.

A woodmizer is a portable bandsaw mill. Many different companies making them, woodmizer happens to be one of the pioneers and better manufacturers. Woodmizer even will refer you to people that own mills in your area if you ask them.

As you can see there are lots of options out there.


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## clearance (Mar 31, 2005)

Treetop, Newfie-read my post again, I love some trees, some of them need to be cut down a.s.a.p.. What Newfie said is basically right, get a decent forester to advise you. He is also right about what a short log truck is. A logging truck without a trailer, that has a grapple/claw device to load and sometimes unload. Really nice if they have a winch, powerfull hydraulic unit mounted on the headache rack with a choker at the end of the cable. Doesn't beat up the ground as much. As for the two trees by your house, tick, tick, tick.


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## RatliffLogging (Apr 1, 2005)

Tom,

My thoughts for what their worth is that you should lay low on all the Walnut under 20-22inches at beast height. As for the cherry try the same guild lines anything over 22 remove so long as this doesn't leave to many holes in the top. As for oaks and the sort try to take the 18-20 at breast height leaving the smaller one to stand. I would try to spread my cutting over as much time as could be allowed. Keep in mind have a odd tree which is taller then the rest will draw more lightening. I know that sounds out of place but a tree struck is firewood. Also use your judgment. no one will be able to for sure tell you what will and what won't work for your needs and stand. Each area is different. People say they know this and they know that, but the truth is whatever your longterm needs and use for the area will be the true guide line for what you do with what trees. I will say this Walnut Cherry and good hard maple logs are bringing anywhere from $0.85 a ft for lower number1 logs to $7.50 a ft for export logs in veneer grades...I don't know what the firewood market is in your area but in KY it is $180a cord they pick up and $225 a cord delivered and stacked...Which is more then culls and number 3 saw logs will bring at most mills and about the same money as number 2's. Also call woodmizer ask them for the numbers of people who have bought small mills in your area. Call ask them what they need, offer delivery this will build sales and raise the price many times over. When doing this keep in mind they need small quantities and like the more unusual logs which produce curly, burl, and Birdseye boards and will pay for logs they can count on to contain the right growth and knot content to have those patterns. Learn all you can about grading, don't take lower dollar for your logs then they are worth as heat, and never sale a log of higher grade without inviting a few bids for pricing on it and always be willing and ready to drive home with a log you know is worth more then what the mill offers....Make it clear you will heat your house and family with it before you sell it under market or below value.


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## Treetop_Tom (Apr 4, 2005)

Hello, all.

Just wanted to stop by and say thanks to all. Raffti, that's a lot of what I was looking for, now I jsut have to do the learning. Anyone know of a good book? :Eye:


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## treeman45246 (Apr 5, 2005)

http://www.harvestingurbantimber.com/images/3d-book-sm.jpg

This might be a good book to check out. He's nuts over the woodmizer, but it will have most of the information you seek in it.

http://www.harvestingurbantimber.com/

This is the website.... the first link is only a picture of his book.


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## Treetop_Tom (Apr 5, 2005)

Looks good.

Thanks again!


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## hornbeam (Apr 7, 2005)

Do not cut them yourself unless you want to make a lot of mistakes. Hire a professional for this after getting many quotes. I suggest you start with hiring a consultant forester. The money you pay him/her will be well worth your while. The consultant would be your fiduciary agent and supervise the process. You may want to get referrals from his/her clients as well as the State foresters office. This sounds like a large amount of money sale and worth the time investigating.


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## Newfie (Apr 7, 2005)

The forester has been suggested by several people already. Tom seems to value advice as long as it doesn't cost him anything, except maybe the cost of a book.


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## Treetop_Tom (Apr 8, 2005)

Newfie:

I don't have any problem paying for advice. I just want to have some idea of what's going on. I figured I'd have to get some pro help, but remember, this is a real small parcel (about 5 acres actually wooded), and so the costs of a consultant, or a truck, or a skid loader, or whatever - even a team of horses are spread out over a much smaller no. of trees. I'm considering asking neighbors if they'd like to form a cooperative and thereby get much more acreage under sustained management- both for income and to make the woods around here "cleaner" and more productive. 

But, like I said, I wanna have some idea what I'm talking about.

hornbeam, there's a couple of trees I can't cut myself - -danger to life and property, you know. And since I have no way to get the logs to the mill, I figured I'm going to be hiring the work.

Thanks again, all.

Tom


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## fwf (Apr 8, 2005)

Tom,

I suggest you contact the District Forester for your area. Here's a link to help find yours.

The are PA state employees, so there is no charge. Chances are he will come out and give a ton of professional advice and info -- completely free.

This forum is great, but nothing can compare with a competent person actually seeing what you have.

Joe


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## Treetop_Tom (Apr 11, 2005)

fwf:

Thanks, I'd had this guy's e-mail once and lost it (really unusual for me).

I was just over your way mid-March for a mini-vacation. Rode in the Amish buggies etc. Beautiful country!

Tom


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