# Another Leaner



## Airecon (Feb 11, 2008)

Im wanting to cut this tree, but Im a little afraid of it- Im not that experienced with a saw. Its about 24" down near the fork. I've got a Stihl 028 with a 18" bar. Anybody know what kind of tree it is- I think its some kind of Elm. I may just leave it if its Elm. I've read too many horror stories about leaners here at the forums. I know it would be nothing to some of you guys, but Im a bit of a wimp.


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 11, 2008)

Now _that_ is a leaner! The danger when cutting it is getting your saw trapped if you attempt an undercut. Don't even try unless you have a spare saw handy.

Anohter danger is a barber chair when you do the top cut. I would chain it before doing any cutting at all. 

How to proceed? I'll let the experts give that advice.

Harry K


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## Billy_Bob (Feb 11, 2008)

I would be looking at it as...

What will happen if I cut this? What will happen if I cut that?

What will it fall on and then what will happen? Will it hit another tree causing that tree or branch to fly back where I am standing?

What is above where I am cutting? Are there dead limbs which could fall on my head?

Are other trees supporting this branch? Should I remove these first? Or if I remove the supporting trees, will the whole works topple over on me?

Is there a tree under this large branch which will keep it from falling to the ground? Should I remove that tree first? What will happen if I leave that tree there and cut the main branch?

Can I cut a little off of this large branch at a time? Do it in sections? Is the only safe way to do this with a bucket truck? Do it one small section at a time?


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## 2dogs (Feb 11, 2008)

Start by cutting away the dead wood to inspect for rot in the crotch. Don't cut too deep and weaken the tree. Then cut your notch in about 1/5-1/4 the diameter while watching the tree for any movement. Use the tip of the bar as much as possible and ream while you are cutting this so the kerf stays open. Then cut down from the top a few inches and then cut the off side in a few inches. Finish with the end of the bar by cutting the rest of the way down while you are watching and listening. The tree may peal down or it may break, be prepared for either.


A longer bar and a bigger saw would be an advantage here. It helps to be able to stand back a foot more and cut with the end of the bar. Make sure your chain is sharp so the cut progresses quickly to prevent the tree from splitting. Even if it does that's OK as long as you stay safe. If it splits and the top of the tree hits the ground hook a choker to end and pull the tree sideways to break it off the stump.

If you are concerned then have someone more qualified take it down for you. After all it is just a tree and it isn't worth getting hurt over.


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## Nailsbeats (Feb 11, 2008)

Thats a simple one. All you have to do is cut up from the bottom a few inches without pinching your bar, then cut from the top to meet the other cut. No notch needed. The bottom cut will act like a small notch. Watch your feet, when that bottom cut closes it should hold for a second then it will pop, fiber pull and release. From my view the tree is laying so flat that if you notch it you risk having the top hit the ground before the butt releases and then it will kick back at you, instant death hazzard. Very simple, but if you need more clarification be sure to ask.


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## GASoline71 (Feb 11, 2008)

Airecon said:


> Im wanting to cut this tree, but Im a little afraid of it- Im not that experienced with a saw...
> 
> ...I know it would be nothing to some of you guys, but Im a bit of a wimp.



You answered your question right in you post. Have someone else that knows how to get a tree like this on the ground do the job. This is a death trap waiting to happen for a novice cutter. Trees this large are not forgiving and can knock your teeth out or worse... kill you.

Then after it is on the ground you can limb it and buck it up to your hearts desire.

Gary


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## sILlogger (Feb 11, 2008)

i'd recommend having someone else cut it....but this is how i'd do it....

A Modified Sput Cut..
bore out the heart of it leaving holding wood on the top and bottom(plenty on the top) cut the holding wood on the bottom(i cut in at angle from the stump side and cut my kerf wide so that the tree can close the kerf w/o getting pinched. once that is done cut the holding wood on the top. tree is down.

looks like a red oak to me

what part of KY you in?


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## Airecon (Feb 12, 2008)

I probably won't cut it, just seems too dangerous to me. I just hate not to give it a try and not be able to drop it on the ground. I thought about once, tieing a ladder to the end and cutting off a little at a time, but Id probably fall and break my neck. I don't need the wood, so I better play it safe and just leave it alone. Im in western KY.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 12, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Thats a simple one. All you have to do is cut up from the bottom a few inches without pinching your bar, then cut from the top to meet the other cut. No notch needed. The bottom cut will act like a small notch. Watch your feet, when that bottom cut closes it should hold for a second then it will pop, fiber pull and release. From my view the tree is laying so flat that if you notch it you risk having the top hit the ground before the butt releases and then it will kick back at you, instant death hazzard. Very simple, but if you need more clarification be sure to ask.



Thats the way I would cut it too. If you dont cut up from the bottom a few inches it will split for about 10-15 feet right up the middle. If you dont care about a split just start cutting from the top but slowly. Cutting slowly will give you plenty of time to recognize when the tree is making its move


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 12, 2008)

Airecon said:


> I probably won't cut it, just seems too dangerous to me. I just hate not to give it a try and not be able to drop it on the ground. I thought about once, tieing a ladder to the end and cutting off a little at a time, but Id probably fall and break my neck. I don't need the wood, so I better play it safe and just leave it alone. Im in western KY.



DO NOT tie a ladder on the end. THAT is the way to get hurt.


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## Tom D. (Feb 12, 2008)

Not trying to advise, just asking a question --

The tree looks to be around 45 degrees from horizontal. How about a creating a notch on the bottom of say 30 degrees, and then bore cutting? The two faces of the notch should close before the tree hits the ground ensuring that the hinge breaks and the butt doesn't get hung up. The bore cut should prevent barber chairing. Also, I'd go for a pretty shallow notch to reduce the risk of pinching the saw during the undercut.

Thoughts? Any risks I'm not thinking of?


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## Marc (Feb 12, 2008)

Tom D. said:


> Not trying to advise, just asking a question --
> 
> The tree looks to be around 45 degrees from horizontal. How about a creating a notch on the bottom of say 30 degrees, and then bore cutting? The two faces of the notch should close before the tree hits the ground ensuring that the hinge breaks and the butt doesn't get hung up. The bore cut should prevent barber chairing. Also, I'd go for a pretty shallow notch to reduce the risk of pinching the saw during the undercut.
> 
> Thoughts? Any risks I'm not thinking of?



That's exactly what I was thinking, but I don't have tremendous experience. I use the shallow (1/4 diameter) open notch (90 degree) with a bore cut and a back strap thickness proportional to the moment of the tree. When you know you can evacuate in a hurry if need be, start thinning the back strap until it falls.

I'd also chain the trunk or use a couple load straps just to be sure it doesn't barber chair... that's my SOP for any heavy leaner.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 12, 2008)

This guy is a novice and you are talking bore cut a controversial
dangerous cut to start with! I never use a bore cut in millions of leaners
and never had a problem with barberchair. The standard and humbolt
with no bore is all I use. I do sometimes use a ratchet binder to prevent
chair on hollow trees but the kickback danger from sticking the tip
into a tree is too great to advise anyone to practice it.


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## Marc (Feb 12, 2008)

Well neither of us explicitly advised him specifically to use the bore cut. More pontification than anything.

I started using the bore cut when I assisted a pro logger (on "haitus") clearing some land over the course of two years as part of a part time job. I learned the feel for it and the best ways to do it (only with a sharp chain, fast speed, and to begin with the bottom edge of the bar, and of course with full PPE). In those two years, he made several of these cuts and used it several different ways without incident. Since then I have as well. *shrug* I find it to be invaluable for easy splitting leaners like red oak and ash.


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## GASoline71 (Feb 12, 2008)

That is why I wouldn't even begin to tell a guy how to do a job he isn't even comfortable doin,.

The bore cut is grossly overused. 

Gary


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## ropensaddle (Feb 12, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> That is why I wouldn't even begin to tell a guy how to do a job he isn't even comfortable doin,.
> 
> The bore cut is grossly overused.
> 
> Gary



+1 I can see why a logger every once in a while would use the cut
but being that every safety issue in the book seems to have kickback
in it; avoiding contact with the bar tip is a priority. My insurance keeps
going up because of kickbacks in some form or fashion.


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## GASoline71 (Feb 12, 2008)

I've cut a lot of trees in my time... I can prolly count on one hand the times i have used a bore cut.

Gary


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## sILlogger (Feb 12, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> I've cut a lot of trees in my time... I can prolly count on one hand the times i have used a bore cut.
> 
> Gary



i wish i could count the amount of bore cuts ive had to do......many every day day...


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## 2dogs (Feb 12, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> +1 I can see why a logger every once in a while would use the cut
> but being that every safety issue in the book seems to have kickback
> in it; avoiding contact with the bar tip is a priority. My insurance keeps
> going up because of kickbacks in some form or fashion.



I agree. I also agree with Gary here. I know how to do various bore cuts but most of the bores I've done were for practice or fun.

My bar of choice is a wide nose Cannon or Stihl. ( I do want to add a reduced weight Oregon to the lineup too.) They are more likely to kick back than most bars and if my technique is off, which it sometimes is, they are just plain gonna kick back trying to bore. Now on little trees, say 16-18" DBH, and an 18 or 20" bar boring is pretty safe. For one thing most bars that short are going to have a narrow nose. Getting that wide nose 28" or longer bar started in a bore cut is no time to screw up or lose focus and it should not be attempted by someone with little experience. Master the standard methods first.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 12, 2008)

sILlogger said:


> i wish i could count the amount of bore cuts ive had to do......many every day day...



Ever try it without a bore? Are you just a bore addict?


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## buzz sawyer (Feb 12, 2008)

*Pull It?*

Just my two cents worth - as bad as it's leaning and as little as it seems there is holding it up --- if you can get close enough with a heavy truck, why not get a cable or bull rope in the top and give it a few tugs? Assuming no potential for property damage, it might just uproot or break off. If nothing else, you'll know how solid it is at the base.


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## 056 kid (Feb 12, 2008)

Make a small notch and bore a little out of the middle. then plunge in right behind the notch back bar up twoards the top if the log. then match that cut from the top and, Pull,crack,pop, and boom shes on the deck.

If you under cut even with a notch in a tree that size, and procead to make a regular that ho will split all to hell and attempting to race the hinge will most likely throw your chain so dont do it that way!!


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## smokechase II (Feb 13, 2008)

*Boring*

On a tree like that a bore cut is a great idea.

I totally agree that bore cutting is silly that way some folks always use it. 

However, I wouldn't touch that tree without:

1) Chain binder,
2) Face, small done very gingerly with a floating bar. You feel the slightest pinch get out. (By the way, don't follow any other group of deranged sawyers who subscribe to the wonderment of a short bar. I don't understand that line of thought either. A longer bar gives you valuable distance. Seriously! Your 18" bar is not safe for this tree.)
3) Bore in at about the middle and once through, again cut toward the hinge gingerly floating the bar lightly, feeling for any pinching. Stop when you feel it just start to snug. 
4) Then cut toward the top till about 5" away, but be ready for the big pop.
5) See if you can note any twisting in the main stem so far, if there has been some; place yourself on the side away from where the butt is moving towards.
6) Cut down from the top with force and direction.

(All your cuts at a comfortable, knees slightly bent ready to move posture.)


*Unless, you haven't done but token boring before.*
No time to learn on a tree with that much power.


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## joesawer (Feb 13, 2008)

The pics don't show the canopy. 
What ever method you use on that tree it is coming down in a hurry. A lot is going to happen in a short period of time. 
The pics show that there will probably be some spring poles under it if they are not removed first.
If the canopy is full it can also move the butt around. 
I have a pretty good idea of how I would do it and it would not be a bore cut.
That is no tree to be learning on. Red oak will blow up in your face (even while making a bore cut) when it is leaning like that.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 13, 2008)

I think the thing to remember is that this tree is going to hit the ground really soon no matter how you cut it and it may well spring back toward your feet and knees pretty quick. This is serious: very little time for an escape route. I think I'd do it just like smokechase said but once I got bored through I'd pull out- much cutting in there and you'll get bound quickly- then you have to unbolt your saw head and pop the backstrap with your axe. But the thing is, I think you'd get it on the ground just as safely with a little undercut and then cutting down from the top- not fancy but I bet it'd work. I way agree about bar length, there was a day back when I thought it was great to be able to cut huge timber with a little bar, etc. Then I cut with some heli cutter dudes and afeter ridiculing their unnnecessary long bars, they convinced me to try a long bar- after a few hours I was convinced and I will NEVER go back. 28" minimum. Way better. Way. I bore every tree I cut (except of course clearing junk 7" or less) because that is THE way to cut hardwood trees- its just a lot different than west coast timber. But once you get the bore down, kickback ain't no concern- even boring in with either side of the tip, which is common and not really even a worry, once you get used to it. Safety. Skills. Production.


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## smokechase II (Feb 13, 2008)

*Barber Chair escape*

Normally one is taught to escape the stump area at a 45 degree to the rear, not crossing behind the tree.

In a potential barber chair I would suggest a 90 degree, provided no spinning of the tree.

**************

However, on this tree it is already over 50%+ of the way.
The fulcrum could be 10 feet up and there would not be that much of the butt log to get a sawyer near the backside of the stump.

*************

If the tree chairs, things will happen fast but not instantaneously with regard to the butt.
There will be a second to react before the butt slams down.

Another consideration that works itself into other equations is hiding behind another tree as yours goes over.
That opportunity may exist here.

***************

As always, your saw isn't worth much. Compared to your body. In any true moment, just drop it/let it go.


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## farmer (Feb 13, 2008)

I watched a pro cutting hardwood in ny and he bore cut every tree too.


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## GASoline71 (Feb 13, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *Unless, you haven't done but token boring before.*
> No time to learn on a tree with that much power.



Best comment yet on this thread!   

Gary


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## sILlogger (Feb 13, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Ever try it without a bore? Are you just a bore addict?



yea ive cut trees without bore cutting....these are some of the ways that i've cut

spur cut 
match cut(no notch-sink the saw in it and walk around it) 
conventional notch with back cut 
humbolt with back cut
humbolt with bore cuts
swing cut (cut a notch and start on one side and go around to other to pull the tree in the desired direction)
conventional notch bore cut with solid holding wood across face
conventional notch bore cut with "ears" at the corner (how i typically cut)

typically if a hardwood has much lean to it at all you just can't cut if fast enought to keep from splitting it....so i bore cut them...less fibre pull...doesn't pull the bark...doesn't split the side...and i even use a bore cut for pushing them over with a skidder or pulling them over with the winchcable


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