# Protect The Second Growth



## slowp (Oct 10, 2020)

I can't link to it because it is behind a paywall for the _Seattle Times_. Apparently there is a tree sitter in our fair state's (don't move here) Capital Forest. Apparently he objects to a timber sale and built a platform in a tree in the unit and is up there. I have deduced all this from a blurb and comments on facebook. Northman can vouch for this. 

One of the comments is that old growth is very rare as is second growth forest and second growth forest needs protection. Had I had coffee in my mouth at that point, it would have been on the keyboard. More of the usual Stop Logging comments followed. 

The forest is out of my area of knowledge but I have friends who recreate in it. In fact, I think it is a working forest with a lot of trails for all users and would be second or third growth. Trees grow well in that part of the state. That's all I know about it. 

Anybody heard Save The Second Growth before? 

I


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## northmanlogging (Oct 10, 2020)

Tumwater man camps on platform 100 feet up a Douglas fir, blocks logging at Capitol State Forest


A 34-year-old Tumwater man, who is camping out on a platform 100 feet up a Douglas fir, has stopped logging operations in a small section of the Capitol State Forest since Oct. 1. He is trying to protect 100-year-old trees...




www.seattletimes.com





To Summerize, "tree angelo" is trying to protect trees he claims are 90-100 years old, with one of them platforms tied off to a gate or in this case an abandoned vehicle filled with concrete... you cut a rope he dies

Meanwhile the DNR says the trees have an average age of 66 years, with lots of oversize Doug fir.... So large second growth

anyway welcome to the world of poorly informed and ignorant activism..


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## 2dogs (Oct 10, 2020)

Around here pretty muchly any tree removal job or timber harvest brings out the usual suspects expressing their anger at anyone who will listen. In the city any tree over 14' dbh requires and inspection, a permit, and the job must be posted for a certain amount of time. If the tree is huge, like 20", it usually draws protesters, and Nextdoor.com lights up. We have a "heritage tree" ordinace that drives all this, and the protesters contact the city council who can over ride the permit process. A tree such as one overhanging a house can only be trimmed 10% without a permit. The ordinance applies to heritage shrubs and old growth eucalyptus. (Old growth trees now are around 40 years of age and older and are mostly non-native species. The ordinance protects the least desirable species.)

Most of the timber harvest is redwood with a very small amount of D-fir. While we haven't had anyone chain themselves to a tree or a gate or tree sit for a few years it only takes one person to stir that pot. Of course there are no old growth trees cut, everything is second or third and even fourth growth but there are still letter writing campaigns on occasion and letters to the editor. 

Incidentally regarding archaelogical sites, "artifacts" are as young as 40-45 years old. This means a beer can from 1980 can stop a timber harvest. I don't believe this has happened yet but still the possibility exists.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 10, 2020)

Education or lack there of is to blame here. 

folks hear Save the forests, but forget or don't even understand what that means or entails. 

I'm trying in a small way to shift the focus from "pillaging mother nature" to "logging=agriculture" hence the Grown In Washington sticker on my log truck, as well as much of my arguments to folks on social media. rather then the old tried and true earth first we'll log the other planets later, but a realistic approach (besides no sign of timber on Mars...)of compare a clear cut to a freshly harvested field, or think of thinning as weeding your garden etc.. a few informative words here and there, will go a long ways to changing the view of loggers from ignorant hill billies with axes, to sophisticated gentleman farmers... (and I say this with as little sarcasm as possible...)


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## 2dogs (Oct 10, 2020)

Keep in mind that clear-cut forests are managed for increased timber production, that is fast growing merch trees, and not for biodiversity of overall health of forests in general. That's fine of course as we need lumber and Xmas trees. But look at old growth lumber (of any species I'm guessing though not sure, Patty please jump in here), compared to today's lumber from fast growing sexy trees. Today's tree yield a far inferior product. 

Plantations don't have the biodiversity of a wild forest either. From large animals to organisms in the soil there are far fewer species.

But don't worry about me. I try to check the country and state of origin but I'm not willing to wait around for "new old growth". I've got a fence to build. (I have decided to eliminate pressure treated wood from ground contact, as has our Boy Scout Council. We are using National Parks methods now.)


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## northmanlogging (Oct 10, 2020)

2dogs said:


> Keep in mind that clear-cut forests are managed for increased timber production, that is fast growing merch trees, and not for biodiversity of overall health of forests in general. That's fine of course as we need lumber and Xmas trees. But look at old growth lumber (of any species I'm guessing though not sure, Patty please jump in here), compared to today's lumber from fast growing sexy trees. Today's tree yield a far inferior product.
> 
> Plantations don't have the biodiversity of a wild forest either. From large animals to organisms in the soil there are far fewer species.
> 
> But don't worry about me. I try to check the country and state of origin but I'm not willing to wait around for "new old growth". I've got a fence to build. (I have decided to eliminate pressure treated wood from ground contact, as has our Boy Scout Council. We are using National Parks methods now.)


Lots of private ground around here, that is second or even third growth, that is very diverse, the 6-7? (I should remember by now..) acres I'm on now has some nice big Fir, a bunch of various sized hemlock and alder patches, and a substantial stand of cedar, the surrounding acreage is all very similar, though some of it grows back to cotton weeds cause they don't take care of the ground and replant at all.

As for old growth being superior, I'm not sold on that, more often then not it has a very tight grain, but I've seen second growth lumber get confused for old growth often enough. And last I checked the strength is about the same, though one aspect is the relative lack of knots, which has more to do with the mills taking smaller diameter timber. 

One of the draw backs to the modern method of mono-culture plantings is the rampant disease we are seeing, root rot, white fungus etc seem to go after entire stands, especially in planted areas, the stuff I've cut that grew back "naturally" all seems fairly healthy. Farmers experience the same issues, when your seed crop comes from one area, it may not be up to dealing with the issues of some other area, even a few miles away. The potato famine is a great example of this issue. Blight being pervasive enough on its own, its especially bad in damp climates, and the brown russet that the Irish depended on cause they grow big and quick, is extra susceptible to blight. Much like Hemlocks grow fast, they die fast too... (as a side note, most commercial potato farms currently grow brown russets but a blight "resistant" strain... so another potato famine is just waiting for evolution to catch up)

Anyway, I try to point out that we are producing more timber then ever even with less mills... but I think it falls on deaf ears.


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## slowp (Oct 10, 2020)

Swiss Needle Cast--has changed the whole mono species practice. It is now spreading inland from the coast, in fact, it is starting to hit the Randle area--according to my friend who just won a major tree farm award. It's a disease that likes to hit Doug-fir. I'm not very well informed on it. More anecdotal stuff from what I've seen, we may plant a species but Western Hemlock has very blowy seed and it usually finds lots of nice places to germinate amongst the newly planted DF seedlings. Our native hardwoods seed in too. That's basically what the lower elevation westside forests have been historically--DF and Western Hemlock with Western Red Cedar growing where it is the right site. An unusual factoid--deer and elk love to eat red cedar seedlings from nurseries, but tend to leave the "wild" seedlings alone. That drove my tree farming friend crazy. She'd come to my place and see all the cedar that had seeded in and then go back to do battle with the elk and deer on the family property where they were trying to grow cedar and had planted it. 

Don't get me started on the loss of huckleberry habitat!!! I only wish the Yakama tribe would open a fireworks stand on the western edge of their tribal lands. The results might make restore some berry habitat on FS land. 

On the strength? Carpenters tell me it is so. The old growth was stronger than the warped, wet products we get now. Of course, one has to find a decent lumberyard and that is usually not one of the big box stores. I find the 1950s house I moved to feeling pretty solid. An old forester told me it was because it was most likely built with old growth. 

There is another anecdote about Weyco's plantations of genetically superior fast growing trees reaching a height and then breaking in the coastal wind events. I'm thinking this is why engineered wood and chip board are so common now. 

As for wildlife diversity--last I heard, openings (early seral spaces) were becoming rare on Forest Service lands on the westside. That's one reason the elk are now hanging out in the Cowlitz Valley year round and supplying the insurance agents and body shops business. Elk used to migrate to the high elevations in the summer and come down in the winter. That isn't happening so much anymore now that clearcutting has been discontinued and the plantations have grown in. I used to walk quite a bit on Port Blakely land and see more wildlife (birds and mammals) and evidence of wildlife than on the FS lands. A cougar trio was rumored to be hanging out in that patch of land. 

Have heard that a few small time tree farmers are going to rebel and go with longer rotations to get some big trees on their land. I don't think we will ever know if that works out. They will have to rely on their younger family members to see it through.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 10, 2020)

slowp said:


> Swiss Needle Cast--has changed the whole mono species practice. It is now spreading inland from the coast, in fact, it is starting to hit the Randle area--according to my friend who just won a major tree farm award. It's a disease that likes to hit Doug-fir. I'm not very well informed on it. More anecdotal stuff from what I've seen, we may plant a species but Western Hemlock has very blowy seed and it usually finds lots of nice places to germinate amongst the newly planted DF seedlings. Our native hardwoods seed in too. That's basically what the lower elevation westside forests have been historically--DF and Western Hemlock with Western Red Cedar growing where it is the right site. An unusual factoid--deer and elk love to eat red cedar seedlings from nurseries, but tend to leave the "wild" seedlings alone. That drove my tree farming friend crazy. She'd come to my place and see all the cedar that had seeded in and then go back to do battle with the elk and deer on the family property where they were trying to grow cedar and had planted it.
> 
> Don't get me started on the loss of huckleberry habitat!!! I only wish the Yakama tribe would open a fireworks stand on the western edge of their tribal lands. The results might make restore some berry habitat on FS land.
> 
> ...


the Kitsap Peninsula has some fairly extensive wild huckleberrys (evergreen blue berries)

One of the side effects to all this reparian zone stuff, is that a lot of the timber being left, was already big... so in a few short years that stuff is going to be monstrous, good dirt, good genetics, and plenty of water have that effect.

The chip board garbage has more to do with canadian/eastern US spruce than anything I thing, they cut that stuff when its small, to small for effective lumber, cut one 2x4 out of the middle and chip the rest, or like much of the middle o Kanada they just chip it onsite and truck it to the factories (hard to call it a mill if all the do is assemble)


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## Woodslasher (Oct 16, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Tumwater man camps on platform 100 feet up a Douglas fir, blocks logging at Capitol State Forest
> 
> 
> A 34-year-old Tumwater man, who is camping out on a platform 100 feet up a Douglas fir, has stopped logging operations in a small section of the Capitol State Forest since Oct. 1. He is trying to protect 100-year-old trees...
> ...


I say cut the d*mned ropes and let the trees (and stupid hippies) fall where they may.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 16, 2020)

Woodslasher said:


> I say cut the d*mned ropes and let the trees (and stupid hippies) fall where they may.


talk is easy, but a manslaughter charge is not, and really, you would have a tough time not getting charged with 1st degree murder on something like that. It would be different if you were ignorant to some jack ass camping in a tree, but they are usually very clear about being up there.

The smart thing would be to wait the prick out, but if you read the article, jobs gotta be done by the end of Oct, or wait until next year and try again... maybe... Besides, how much food can one hippie put on a sheet of plywood 60' up a tree anyway... 2 weeks worth, he'll come down and then get arrested.


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## Woodslasher (Oct 16, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> talk is easy, but a manslaughter charge is not, and really, you would have a tough time not getting charged with 1st degree murder on something like that. It would be different if you were ignorant to some jack ass camping in a tree, but they are usually very clear about being up there.
> 
> The smart thing would be to wait the prick out, but if you read the article, jobs gotta be done by the end of Oct, or wait until next year and try again... maybe... Besides, how much food can one hippie put on a sheet of plywood 60' up a tree anyway... 2 weeks worth, he'll come down and then get arrested.


I know, but hearing about ignorant jackasses who pull crap like this pisses me off. The whole “I’m a privileged, sheltered idiot who lives in a house made of wood but has decided that killing trees is bad” mindset just grates on my nerves like nothing else.


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

I cut old growth out of randle/ packwood from 86-92. The last few years was whacky. Units were shut down for anything they could think of. Owls, salamanders crazy. Last sale they spread is all out to open up units before they could be shut down. It was a bit freaky working by myself in that big wood on that steep ass ground. Market went nuts when they finally shut everything down, I started contracting and never missed a beat. Massive private holdings could flood the market at any time and it was a roller coaster till it settled.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 17, 2020)

Woodslasher said:


> I know, but hearing about ignorant jackasses who pull crap like this pisses me off. The whole “I’m a privileged, sheltered idiot who lives in a house made of wood but has decided that killing trees is bad” mindset just grates on my nerves like nothing else.


They piss everyone off, even the folks that sympathize with em. 

But what we, and I mean everyone involved in forestry, need to do is change our approach, from one of angry retorts to education, specifically aligning logging with agriculture, and renewable resources, which is frankly the absolute truth. 

Granted we really shouldn't be cutting anymore actual Old Growth, just let it do its thing, simply because we don't need to, there are plenty of managed forested acres to play on. And still some whoppers from time to time even in the second growth stuff, buddies of mine are currently clearing 2 ish acres with Doug fir over 5' Dia and 180+ feet tall. Hel I've cut second growth spruce that was nearly 6' not a mile from a navy base. 

The ironic thing is that the clearing that is being done around here anyway is to build more stick built houses...


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

It’s hard for people to fathom what a big tree farm can produce, at least here in western Washington. The original Kapowsin tree farm , which is around 750,000 acres, has an 80 million bd ft per year sustainable yield with an average 40 year growth cycle. That’s 200 log trucks a day. It’s a decent size tree farm but it’s a drop in the bucket here. A lot of people only judge what they can see out the car window from the main highway


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

Another thing is the computerized mills won’t take anything over 36”, so they can’t let that stuff grow too long or it ain’t worth **** unless it’s export grade and that ain’t likely from a young fat tree


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

Ha ha, just noticed it covered my fowl language


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## Skeans (Oct 17, 2020)

Trdoldtreecutter said:


> Another thing is the computerized mills won’t take anything over 36”, so they can’t let that stuff grow too long or it ain’t worth **** unless it’s export grade and that ain’t likely from a young fat tree



Export top size depending on the yard is down to 7” now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Skeans (Oct 17, 2020)

slowp said:


> Have heard that a few small time tree farmers are going to rebel and go with longer rotations to get some big trees on their land. I don't think we will ever know if that works out. They will have to rely on their younger family members to see it through.



We’re on one of those rotations and have been for a long time the bad part is if it too big for export with no special call it’s hard to get rid of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

Mills like manke make a fortune off the oversize. I used to do residential tree work on the weekends and a lot of backyard logging. I would send the oversize to a private mill and pay to have it milled before I’d give it away to manke or the like


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## slowp (Oct 17, 2020)

I usually point out that housing developments, roads, and parking lots ARE deforestation. They won't be planted back. If the person is still anti tree cutting, I politely suggest that they can do their part by tearing down their houses and replanting the forest that was there before they were. Hypocrisy is rampant in Western Warshington. During ski season, the same people are lamenting that Stevens Pass needs more parking area. This summer, they were wanting trailhead parking lots made bigger to hold more cars. Also, if they were really concerned about the environment, they wouldn't be driving to trailheads--bicycles or walking would be eco friendlier.


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

Lol, that’s funny. I really don’t mind they stopped a lot of the federal logging in the high country here. Not a very good grow cycle and it is neat to be able to find a big pumpkin if a person feels the need.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 17, 2020)

Trdoldtreecutter said:


> Another thing is the computerized mills won’t take anything over 36”, so they can’t let that stuff grow too long or it ain’t worth **** unless it’s export grade and that ain’t likely from a young fat tree



There are still a hand full of oversize mills left, and around here they pay better then everyone else. The computer mills here don't like anything over 30" but they hammer through the wood in a big damned hurry, SP Shelton was getting over 200 trucks a day winter before last.




Skeans said:


> Export top size depending on the yard is down to 7” now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Export, 8" here, domestic 5"



Trdoldtreecutter said:


> Mills like manke make a fortune off the oversize. I used to do residential tree work on the weekends and a lot of backyard logging. I would send the oversize to a private mill and pay to have it milled before I’d give it away to manke or the like



Mange can kiss my ass, especially the Tacoma yard, janky set up from the gate in, trucks lining up on a blind corner in the street, one scaler that ONLY scales on the truck, or by weight, both are crap without the occasional rollout to keep em honest. then you have to weave through their yard, dodging morons on fork lifts and 20 2x4's hanging out of piles at eye level, cross the same street you were parked on earlier to get to the trailer loader, that may or may not work. Not to mention its Tacoma... which for me means going through Seattle, or accros the Narrows bridge... which as a bridge is neat, but as a toll bridge ****ing lame. (note: all toll bridges on state highways are ****ing lame)


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 17, 2020)

Lol, well, manke does take just about everything which helps clean up some landings and make use of otherwise useless wood. It does feel like robbery when you send them some big rough logs though


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## northmanlogging (Oct 17, 2020)

Trdoldtreecutter said:


> Lol, well, manke does take just about everything which helps clean up some landings and make use of otherwise useless wood. It does feel like robbery when you send them some big rough logs though


Formark does the same thing, but at least the yards make sense, and you don't fear for you life driving through.

Or we have a couple smaller mills up here that take everything including cotton weed, (**** they even pay decent for the cotton weeds lol) same deal though, the scale is often less then desired. But the wood isn't choking up the landing, and you at least don't have to pay to get rid of it.


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## HuskyP (Dec 27, 2020)

Here in PA we have very little old growth, and our forests are incredible. Sometimes we thin the big stuff to let the third growth come up strong, otherwise it can quite literally die as it starts to lose the battle for sunlight. They become more vulnerable to disease. Such a complex issue....


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 27, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Education or lack there of is to blame here.
> 
> folks hear Save the forests, but forget or don't even understand what that means or entails.
> 
> I'm trying in a small way to shift the focus from "pillaging mother nature" to "logging=agriculture" hence the Grown In Washington sticker on my log truck, as well as much of my arguments to folks on social media. rather then the old tried and true earth first we'll log the other planets later, but a realistic approach (besides no sign of timber on Mars...)of compare a clear cut to a freshly harvested field, or think of thinning as weeding your garden etc.. a few informative words here and there, will go a long ways to changing the view of loggers from ignorant hill billies with axes, to sophisticated gentleman farmers... (and I say this with as little sarcasm as possible...)



Tried to do the "Grown in" program here and was told it didn't apply to trees other than Christmas trees or fruit trees.
Neither of which exist to any degree as far as I know.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 27, 2020)

slowp said:


> I usually point out that housing developments, roads, and parking lots ARE deforestation. They won't be planted back. If the person is still anti tree cutting, I politely suggest that they can do their part by tearing down their houses and replanting the forest that was there before they were. Hypocrisy is rampant in Western Warshington. During ski season, the same people are lamenting that Stevens Pass needs more parking area. This summer, they were wanting trailhead parking lots made bigger to hold more cars. Also, if they were really concerned about the environment, they wouldn't be driving to trailheads--bicycles or walking would be eco friendlier.



My brother got my parents called to school many years ago for trying to rationalize with an eco hippie.

He was called "The Birdman" and he'd come to school every year to show some birds and talk about the environment.

He was going on a rant about snowmobiles being horrible for the environment, a waste of fuel, etc.
Snowmobiling is huge in Maine.

My brother told Mr. Birdman if burning fuel was so bad, why was he driving a big van and not using a bike.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 28, 2020)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> Tried to do the "Grown in" program here and was told it didn't apply to trees other than Christmas trees or fruit trees.
> Neither of which exist to any degree as far as I know.


well, I certainly didn't import trees to cut down and then haul to a local mill, so I don't understand their logic... 

Besides its mostly hilarious, folks like to shop for food locally, but gods forbid if they get a 2x4 that was sustainably harvested 10 miles from their back door.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 28, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> well, I certainly didn't import trees to cut down and then haul to a local mill, so I don't understand their logic...
> 
> Besides its mostly hilarious, folks like to shop for food locally, but gods forbid if they get a 2x4 that was sustainably harvested 10 miles from their back door.



No idea. Was told it applied to farmers only.
But they are fine with people that harvest flowers using it. Also bee products.

I use it anyway, they can kiss my ass.


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## newforest (Jan 11, 2021)

A few random notes from reading this thread

With the Forest Circus, one of their flavors of -ologist is Archaeologist. And one of the things the Archaeologist can hold up a timber sale for is evidence of a late 19th/early 20th century logging camp. I think this is used in a dictionary under the entry for “irony.” Cribbed from a USFS sign at such a site: “Do not disturb remains of logging camp buildings not yet excavated, so that we can preserve the chance to better understand the logging era in this area.”

Chip-&-saw was mentioned for small Spruce. There is some hope where I live in northern Michigan that a brand new mill of that type (actually all chip, no saw) can be used as an outlet for never harvested Xmas tree plantations that dot the landscape some. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like the Blue Spruce can quite reach even the small size minimum before their non-local status makes them succumb to various local Spruce pathogens, leaving a useless mess. Which is quite a bummer for everyone really. But what interests me about the new mill is that I heard recently that the real reason it was built is IKEA’s thirst for SFI or FSC certified wood (I can never keep those 2 straight) - but any 2nd or 3rd growth monoculture can be certified. Our State Forests have plenty in that area, ironically thanks to an Endangered Species (a bird), which only nests in dense teenaged conifer. So to save the bird we must use industrial Forestry techniques including herbicide on the deciduous and the result is more chip board for the Swedish furniture kits and everyone gets warm fuzzies all around. 

But it never ceases to amaze me how often I hear the word IKEA in random Forestry scuttlebut.


I am curious about the “Capitol Forest” mentioned in the Original Post. Just the name makes me think it would be near the State Capitol, and thus probably near so many politicians and NGO peeps that management of it must be a major headache for the folks on the ground in that one. Just a hunch.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2021)

newforest said:


> A few random notes from reading this thread
> 
> With the Forest Circus, one of their flavors of -ologist is Archaeologist. And one of the things the Archaeologist can hold up a timber sale for is evidence of a late 19th/early 20th century logging camp. I think this is used in a dictionary under the entry for “irony.” Cribbed from a USFS sign at such a site: “Do not disturb remains of logging camp buildings not yet excavated, so that we can preserve the chance to better understand the logging era in this area.”
> 
> ...


it's more then a few miles from the state Capitol, Olympia, but on the Olympic peninsula... 

less then a days drive but away from any sort of civilization (that includes Shelton) so politicians are unlikely to visit or even care


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## slowp (Jan 20, 2021)

It's a large forest and part of it is rather close to Olympia. My friends who live close to Olympia do a lot of hiking in the Capitol forest because it is quite close to them.


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## Vanguard (Jan 23, 2021)

So much to say here, going down the rabbit hole. Grays Harbor native who started life in Artic down into Aberdeen through Cosi. Dad had me in high school, setting chokers on a few Old Growth but mostly second growth in the 70's, then off to wrenching trucks for Mayer Bros because he had a family to think about. The logging boom was coming to an end in the 80's for the harbor, layoffs were imenent. Old Growth getting more scarce, Second Growth was in and still coming and Third Growth on it's way for harvest within the next few decades, if I remember things right. Also can't remember if Japan was buying less logs, getting ready to sell them back to us as well, or maybe I am mistaken.

Dad gets retrained after getting remarried with 5 kids now to think about, gets a college degree, moving us to Thurston County where his new career was. Capitol Forest, a hop skip and a jump away, Ol' Stompin' Grounds back in my later half of childhood. All the hiking, camping, wood cuttin', ridin', shootin', and hunting a child could do...still didn't feel like the harbor though, and I always knew Thurston County had a funny smell about it. Which now reminds me, Evergreen College started to get popular... protests and activism was more evident - "make sure to spike them trees after you hug it".

By the time high school was over, the Spotted Owl Hoax was believed to be reality by those that drank the kool-aid. Yet, I don't remember any activist or protestors raising hell about my Great Uncle who probably killed more bear recorded by any other man, that number around 3,500 or more I want to recall. Have one small black bear rug I slept on as a kid growing up, now in the garage waiting to be hung. Thank the forest service and timber companies for hiring such a bounty hunter that Bobba-fett couldn't hold a candle too. His bounty only collected after keeping Smoky Bear from damaging big timber, later to get diseased and rotten if Smoky got his way.

Mother nature the best logger out there by so many methods - flood, wind, and fire to name a few...did I mention them black bear opening that bark up for the sap wood to get exposed? Probably just a conspiracy theory anyways...

A handful of grandfathers pretty much retired, telling all the stories I grew up on about big timber, mostly Old and Second Growth along with all the timber and building industries to profit, creating jobs. Their glory days was a lifestyle.

One being a carpenter - blacksmith, welder retiring from Satsop Nuke Plant who also welded a many logging trucks. Always pointed out tight grain lumber being phenomenal for buildings, and told me to use galvanized nails on exteriors.

A second who I believe worked for Shafer Bros Logging in his adolescent years, talking about the first powersaws being two-man after hanging up their misery whips and felling axes. Dad just told me a story the other day, grandpa said they purposely buried them misery whips to get on a power saw. Later grandpa raised my stepmother in Camp Grisdale, also drove for Raby's, later to end his career in Alaska - time spent in Prince of Wales, Juno, Fairbanks, and Ketchikan, if I recall correctly.

And a third I haven't spoken to since last seeing my mom's side of the family who ran his own logging business in the harbor back then. I remember him coming home with smashed crummies from time to time, helping him sharpen chains in the garage with a grinder and some by hand file, and then soaking and hanging oily chains on nails. He spoke highly of Stihl chainsaws when they were becoming popular.

TLTR, I know it's late, but it's funny how other people's perceptions are. That clown hanging in a tree at Capitol Forest does more harm than good. I don't need to elaborate, trees are a crop, selective cutting and thinning is beneficial preventing major forest fires, allowing timber to thrive and grow... you all should know this tune too well.

As far as building with that tight grain wood vs. that high yield crap with wide grain...I'll build my homes and major structures all day with Old and some Second Growth timber so long as it's tight grained. My second career, I spent 10 years as a union carpenter, and I can tell ya' Old and some Second Growth lumber is harder to build with. It's heavier to pack, more dense to cut - sometimes burning saw blades up, and harder to sink a nail in...but it sure is strong. That high yield, wide grain stuff is much easier to build with...it's lighter, soft cutting, easier to sink nails in...but blows out easier when using nailguns, even hand nailing sometimes.

Anyways, a ramble perhaps, but one thing I can say...logging has become smarter over the years to manage more balanced forestry operations, but the activists and protestors would rather risk lives with spikes, ruin livelihoods, and watch timber burn by thousands of acres to save one tree for instant gratification to validate their cause.


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## slowp (Mar 30, 2021)

The other day, while on a very long bike ride, I figured out why diameter limits might be a good thing. 

I rode 22 miles up to a small town. Figured I'd stop and buy some snacks at the little store that does not have bathrooms. Last year, the state park toilets were kept unlocked, even though the park was closed. That was not the case this year. So, I did not go to the store and turned around and started back. Then started looking for big enough trees. They didn't exist. Where there was brush, there was good tight barb wire fence between the road and brush. Finally found a spot, but dammit! We need bigger trees around here.


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## ArtB (Mar 30, 2021)

Lazy this AM, so a few ramblings on PNW and old growth since this thread restarted.
DW always gets a kick out of Eastern friend visiting and marveling at trees around the house, 160 ft DF right next to house (I built house 50 years ago) and left tight group of DF, then they were about 50 YO blows them away comng from 50 ft being a tall tree. DW likes to garden, alder, fir, and cedar are 'weeds' in her garden.
Last 20 years has seen high density (3500 sq ft housed on 4000 sq ft lots) surround our 3 acres - have had new arrivals stop and thank us for preserving the 'OLD growth'. 
A few of the 130 ft 'old growtn' my KIDS planted. Have one giant sequoia I planted 400 ft from the house only 25 years ago already 30" DBH. 
Black cottonwood - after I heard some small snaps followed by a 2 ton BC limb fall 30 feet from me one summer about 40 years ago, dropped 4 of 5 BC on property, 2 of which taped out on the ground at over 155 ft, supposed record height for BC. Still have one over 155ft, now overtopped by DFir, think I'll let a teenage grandson drop the BC this summer for the experience of dropping a 'big' tree. 

Somebody mentioned deer - once planted 2000 DFir seedling down by Mossyrock on a few clear acres on some land down there, deer/elk ate 100% of them the next spring !!!


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## northmanlogging (Mar 30, 2021)

slowp said:


> The other day, while on a very long bike ride, I figured out why diameter limits might be a good thing.
> 
> I rode 22 miles up to a small town. Figured I'd stop and buy some snacks at the little store that does not have bathrooms. Last year, the state park toilets were kept unlocked, even though the park was closed. That was not the case this year. So, I did not go to the store and turned around and started back. Then started looking for big enough trees. They didn't exist. Where there was brush, there was good tight barb wire fence between the road and brush. Finally found a spot, but dammit! We need bigger trees around here.





https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/stansport-pop-up-privacy-shelter


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## slowp (Mar 30, 2021)

ArtB said:


> Somebody mentioned deer - once planted 2000 DFir seedling down by Mossyrock on a few clear acres on some land down there, deer/elk ate 100% of them the next spring !!!


You gotta at least tube your seedlings. 
An interesting factoid about cedar seedlings, of which some are candy for elk and deer. The critters don't seem to munch on the natural growing cedar, they will concentrate on the planted cedars, with some figuring out that they can pull up the tubes and get to the trees. Port Blakely replanted a clearcut with cedar, and then was in replanting it the next year with DF, and tubing it. 

A friend has had success with a lot of cussing, tubing and planting spruce in the same hole with the cedar, and more cussing. Her tree farm is doing well, despite the ^#$& elk, who will also bed down on top of the seedling and smoosh them.


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