# Help me gauge field Level Of Knowledge regarding Forest Pathology



## madhatte (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm working on a study involving Laminated Root Rot in our forests. One of the details is having loggers mark the stumps of visibly-infected trees with two parallel lines cut in the tops of the stumps; the stain from the disease fades in just a few weeks after exposure to air and light, but the cuts are visible for years. 

So far, we've had good results with our contractors' ability to positively ID the stain when present. What I'd like to know from you guys, particularly PNW fallers, is which diseases do you know how to ID and buck or cull for? What are the characteristics you look for? What are the thresholds you use to determine whether a log is "bad enough" to leave on the ground, or to take your chances with the scaler? 

This will be a big help for me as I'm trying to write a procedure for a follow-up study to the one I'm working on right now which will address contractor/logger LOK as well as what I can observe myself.

Thanks in advance.


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## forestryworks (Apr 14, 2011)

Subscribing. Should be an interesting thread.


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## nw axe man (Apr 14, 2011)

Good morning, MadHatte.
I've had a lot to do with Phellinus weirii otherwise known as laminated root rot. We've also done the parallel cuts into the stump for ID purposes. Seems like they've tried everything from Borax to bees wax to get this under control. From what I've learned about it it stays in the soil about 100 years if there isn't a species of tree that feeds it. The Gifford Pinchot has tried planting western white pine in areas that are overly affected. As you drive east on Hwy 12 through Randle and slow down to look. the whole southern aspect on the north side of the highway is infected.
When cutting in an area and you haven't fallen anything yet, the thing to look for is windfalls that have no root system on them. All you'll see is a root ball with the interior of the roots rotten with a punky type rot. This is a particularly insidious disease as it passes from the ends of the roots and travels up through the stump and out the other side into the roots of neighboring trees. If you're walking through the woods generally you'll find where there are "holes" in the timber where the trees tend to fall toward the infected heart of the "hole" in the timber. You have to pay attention as sometimes there is no indication of disease. I've fallen several trees where the root ball was so infected and gone that the when the tree started to go it pulled up the root ball. That's a bit disconcerting and you do get a little up your neck at the same time.
You can also tell if it's diseased if you pat attention to the tops of the trees. The limbs will "flag" out, in other words, the needles will start thinning so much that you can see the difference in a tree that is dead and just doesn't know it yet, and a live tree that has full needles. I'm constantly called to peoples homes that have this disease on their property. When I tell them that all of their trees are infected in a group they can't believe it. In a year or two they see the light when they start flagging.
As far as "leaving" a log on the ground it has to be just plain rotten to leave anymore as the pulp market generally will take just about anything that will hold together. I remember back in the seventies and eighties when a lot of logs were left in the woods. You can take a trip up to any high country clear cuts and see the logs that were left on the ground.
Doug fir is not the only species that is affected by this disease. Cedar and hemlock also get it. Not to the extent that doug fir get it but they do contract it.
I don't believe that they've found a cure for this yet. I'd sure be interested to know if they ever do. My mother has a 40 acre timber plot that has root rot. It was all replanted in doug fir. I don't hold out too much hope for it when it gets a little older.


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## 2dogs (Apr 14, 2011)

Not really on topic here but in the Sierras blue stain can have a negative or a positive impact on the value of the wood. I don't know how to read blue stain from just looking at a tree. I don't even know if it is possible. I just figure every tree will have it. Beetles are pretty easy to see but I don't know if there is a cause/effect relationship or not.

Countertop Slabs from Reclaimed 'Blue Stain' Wood Sugar Pine | Ponderosa Pine Bug Trees

In redwoods we deal with brown cubicle rot. We also just call it heart rot. I figure every burned out tree has it and every large tree over 36"dbh has it too (near Big Sur only, not elsewhere).


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## slowp (Apr 14, 2011)

We've had a couple sessions with regional pathologists. They say that one needs to clearcut fifty feet beyond the last infected tree if you are trying to make an area safe, like along a road or campground.
The district finally got the go ahead and clearcut a small area near the school, along the road that the schoolbusses go on. We couldn't sell it for logs, and we weren't allowed to sell all of it, but were able to make a firewood sale out of it. 

Hazard tree removal along the main roads is supposed to be a priority but it isn't moving along very well. It took getting a guy killed to finally get some action. The people in charge say it is a priority but then don't do anything because there is no budget for it. A local faller tried to volunteer to do it for free, but he was told he'd have to get certified, and could not get certified for trees above 24 inches dbh. So that was a no go. Finally, enough funding came through to do 6 miles. Some of those trees were also sold as firewood a month or so ago. 

Root rot pockets are all over, and the last timber sale we sold had borax application in the contract. It also had the marking of the infected tree stumps required. Now, can one identify infected trees when operating a feller buncher? And, will the operator be willing to get out of the machine to mark the stumps? Those are a couple more things to throw into the discussion. Some guys like to get out and stretch their legs, others do not. 

Such things will drive you crazy. I am sleeping much better since retiring.

Oh, there is much less defect in the second growth stands, and better utilization. I did find some excessive long butting at times, and also when a processor is used on the landing, there is more. When the market crashed, the mills became pickier. 
Gotta watch that.


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## Humptulips (Apr 14, 2011)

I logged a few units in the Bremerton Watershed. They were all thinning units and badly infected with laminated root rot. We were given a short course on identifying it and told to cut every tree within 50 feet of infected trees. It was impossible. It was so prevalent that we would have ended up opening up half the ground. In fact we started out doing like we were told and were chewed out for cutting to many trees.
So what do you do? The area is never going to be cleared of the root rot. Even if you plant to alder there will always be a few fir come up and you have to leave willdlife trees and RMZs. Looks hopeless to me.


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## Humptulips (Apr 14, 2011)

nw axe man said:


> Good morning, MadHatte.
> I've had a lot to do with Phellinus weirii otherwise known as laminated root rot. We've also done the parallel cuts into the stump for ID purposes. Seems like they've tried everything from Borax to bees wax to get this under control. From what I've learned about it it stays in the soil about 100 years if there isn't a species of tree that feeds it. The Gifford Pinchot has tried planting western white pine in areas that are overly affected. As you drive east on Hwy 12 through Randle and slow down to look. the whole southern aspect on the north side of the highway is infected.



Interesting that you say they planted Western White Pine. On the west side of the penninsula they don't stand a chance. Everyone of them eventually sucumbs to White Pine Blister Rust. Do they not have that problem there?


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## madhatte (Apr 14, 2011)

This thread is yielding much better information than I could have hoped for. 

What I'm getting from the group as a whole is that not only are the non-foresters in this bunch hip to forest pathology, but the Level Of Knowledge is equal to or better than a good number of forestry types I have worked with! This is very encouraging. 

Second, I doubt that we'll ever find a "cure" for this disease; it's a native, endemic pathogen and has co-evolved with the Pine family such that it is essential in the seral pathway to mature forests in that it is an agent for creating openings of a size sufficient to put light on shade-intolerant seedlings. Without these openings, it would be very hard for a canopy to develop more than one layer at a time. It would take catastrophe such as fire or landslides for seedlings to germinate and get established.

Regarding white pine -- The USFS and the Army Corps Of Engineers at Dorena, OR have been working for some time to produce blister-rust resistant seedlings. We've been planting them here for I think three years and so far their survival has been good; however, we don't have a formal survey of _Ribes_ populations so we won't be able to correlate future mortality due to the Blister Rust unless we get cracking. 

Finally, thank you all for helping me with this project. I'll let you know what I find.


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## Humptulips (Apr 15, 2011)

Madhatte,
On the Blister Rust I'd say three years is hardly long enough to know if it will survive. Around here I've noticed most of the trees last to get of fair size but not merchantable before they become infected. Often they grow big enough to produce cones. There is an occasional tree that is resistant and survives and I thought at one time they might repopulate the area with resistant seedlings but there are too many of the non-resistant ones produce seeds before they die.
Beautiful tree though. The Quinault Indian Res had thousands of old White pine snags and often they would still have a good log or two in them. Rarely there would be a green tree. I logged a 7 foot pine that was green just south of the Queets in the 70s. Probably should have left it for its genes.


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## madhatte (Apr 15, 2011)

Funny you should mention the Quinaults. While these seedlings are from the Dorena resistance collection, the original stock came from the Quinault reservation, and I'm pretty sure the nursery where they were grown was there as well. I think we got them from DNR. These are F4 or F5 generation resistant, and should be OK for a good while. We have a handful of earlier generations' plantings here and there and they're all dead or nearly so at less than 20 years old. That blister rust is no joke.


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## RPM (Apr 15, 2011)

We plant the Idaho resistant White pine in some of our planting mixes. It’s usually limited to sites with high incidence of _Armillaria_ root rot and where we can't do any mechanical site prep / stumping. We limit it to 10-15% of the stocking and mostly for some variety. White pine is prevalent throughout my area, however it is noticeably lacking from some age classes (0-20) and (21-40). It appears that around here if the White Pine can make to 40+ years they do ok. Then they just have to compete with bears and porcupines who like to strip the bark off of them. 

Too bad because the White pine around here grows like a weed if it can.


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## madhatte (Apr 17, 2011)

I have an idea I want to run past you guys. 

If I can find one of those free online quiz sites where you can upload whatever you want and get answers like "WHICH HARRY POTTER CHARACTER ARE YOU", and instead have pictures of real-life situations, would you be willing to participate? I'm trying to quantify the difference between what the 'Ologists "know" and what the Guy With The Saw KNOWS.

I haven't looked for a site yet, and I don't want to do a multiple-choice kind of quiz, because I know very well that there's no "Right" answer to a lot of circumstances" What I'm looking for is a sentence or two on "What would you do if you saw this and why?"

Rest assured that I'll agonize over the pictures to make sure that I'm neither asking things I already know the answer to nor asking the impossible. I'm interested in overlaying common atop common, and hoping to close the gap between cruise and mill.


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## slowp (Apr 17, 2011)

I will offer this tidbit. The Guy With The Saw is a lot more intelligent than the 'ologists think. Most are smarter and quicker to figure out the new stuff than I am. 

However, from my point of view, cutting prescriptions should be kept as simple as possible. Several of us, cutters, siderod, silviculturist and I had to huddle around one particular prescription and it took a while to figure out what the writer meant. That one was done out of house. Garbage in, garbage out. 

When you have to do that, things are getting a bit too complicated. 

The person that puts the contract together also was having a hard time translating the specialist jargon. 

The simpler, the better.


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## 2dogs (Apr 17, 2011)

Does anyone here disinfect their equipment before moving to a new site? I would not think a move say 10 miles would need disinfection but how about a move of 50 or 100 or 300 miles?

I deal with pitch canker, blue stain, brown cubicle rot, SODS, beetles, and maybe others.


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## Gologit (Apr 17, 2011)

slowp said:


> I will offer this tidbit. The Guy With The Saw is a lot more intelligent than the 'ologists think. Most are smarter and quicker to figure out the new stuff than I am.
> 
> However, from my point of view, cutting prescriptions should be kept as simple as possible.
> 
> The simpler, the better.


 
Exactly right.


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## slowp (Apr 17, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Does anyone here disinfect their equipment before moving to a new site? I would not think a move say 10 miles would need disinfection but how about a move of 50 or 100 or 300 miles?
> 
> I deal with pitch canker, blue stain, brown cubicle rot, SODS, beetles, and maybe others.



The Forest Service 2400-6 contract has a provision in the B section (boilerplate nation-wide) where equipment cleaning, not disinfecting, is required before coming onto the timber sale, and between units if there is a noxious weed problem _As Shown On The Timber Sale Map_. The sale that was being put together when I left was going to have cleaning required between areas in one unit because there were bad weeds in one little section. This is more for noxious weed control than disease control. There is a C provision (region wide) for disinfecting (tire bath?) in the Port Orford Cedar areas. 

Note that the word CLEANING is used. Not WASHING.


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## M.D. Vaden (Apr 17, 2011)

This disease is one that I'm not very familiar with. There must not be much of it around the Portland west suburbs.

One article I read, said that stumps could be blown or pulled loose from the ground and that air drying was sufficient to kill the fungus.

If air is bad for this fungus, how does it move around from area to area? Or is it just confined mainly where it has been for centuries?

Also, if the disease can move on equipment, and air drying kills it, wouldn't air-drying of equipment be sufficient to prevent spread by way of equipment?


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## 2dogs (Apr 17, 2011)

M.D. Vaden said:


> This disease is one that I'm not very familiar with. There must not be much of it around the Portland west suburbs.
> 
> One article I read, said that stumps could be blown or pulled loose from the ground and that air drying was sufficient to kill the fungus.
> 
> ...


 
Are you still using the converted cargo trailer? I love that build and have it in my favorites file.


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## 2dogs (Apr 17, 2011)

slowp said:


> The Forest Service 2400-6 contract has a provision in the B section (boilerplate nation-wide) where equipment cleaning, not disinfecting, is required before coming onto the timber sale, and between units if there is a noxious weed problem _As Shown On The Timber Sale Map_. The sale that was being put together when I left was going to have cleaning required between areas in one unit because there were bad weeds in one little section. This is more for noxious weed control than disease control. There is a C provision (region wide) for disinfecting (tire bath?) in the Port Orford Cedar areas.
> 
> Note that the word CLEANING is used. Not WASHING.


 
Thanks, I'll look that up. BTW is "cleaning" defined?


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## slowp (Apr 17, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Thanks, I'll look that up. BTW is "cleaning" defined?



We defined it as getting the mud and dirt off the machine. Also, only the off road machines are required to be cleaned here. Yarders, and log trucks are usually on the road. 

The 'ologists here were/are wanting to change that to all equipment which would make it hard for the log trucks and is beyond common sense. We don't require the tourists to clean their cars and they too are driving around. 

Now, sounds like you are in a different area where cleaning may be further defined in the C part of the contract. Or, the fill in the blanks section of whatever contract you are using. There is a difference between cleaning for weeds and disinfecting to get rid of spores and such. 

Do you have to set up a wash station?


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## madhatte (Apr 17, 2011)

M.D. Vaden said:


> If air is bad for this fungus, how does it move around from area to area?



That's the question of the century. Nobody's really sure. Fact is, you CAN infect new material with inoculum which has been exposed to air, but it's hard to say how long it stays active. Washing seems a reasonable precaution, but it's anybody's guess whether it actually does anything or not



slowp said:


> The simpler, the better.



Agreed. I write pretty complicated prescriptions, but try to keep it on the Forestry side of the house. Once the contracts are written, they should read "cut all blue-marked trees" and very little else. That way we assume the responsibility for understanding what we're trying to say.


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## nw axe man (Apr 18, 2011)

slowp said:


> We've had a couple sessions with regional pathologists. They say that one needs to clearcut fifty feet beyond the last infected tree if you are trying to make an area safe, like along a road or campground.
> The district finally got the go ahead and clearcut a small area near the school, along the road that the schoolbusses go on. We couldn't sell it for logs, and we weren't allowed to sell all of it, but were able to make a firewood sale out of it.
> 
> Hazard tree removal along the main roads is supposed to be a priority but it isn't moving along very well. It took getting a guy killed to finally get some action. The people in charge say it is a priority but then don't do anything because there is no budget for it. A local faller tried to volunteer to do it for free, but he was told he'd have to get certified, and could not get certified for trees above 24 inches dbh. So that was a no go. Finally, enough funding came through to do 6 miles. Some of those trees were also sold as firewood a month or so ago.
> ...


 Evening, SlowP.
Seems to me that was a bad day when that guy got killed. I think it's still going to be a bad day when the lawyers get done with it. Oh well, time will tell, poop will smell and water finds it's own level.


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## slowp (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm interested in what is killing the maples around here. I've heard armillaria, and then have head it is a wilt, but nothing certain. I'm busy converting maple to firewood now. The one was a beautiful tree.


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## madhatte (Apr 19, 2011)

At least on the forest where I work, the maple mortality appears to be due to simple succession. When they get over-topped, they start dropping branches. It's the open-grown madrones dying that has me concerned.


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## nw axe man (Apr 19, 2011)

slowp said:


> I'm interested in what is killing the maples around here. I've heard armillaria, and then have head it is a wilt, but nothing certain. I'm busy converting maple to firewood now. The one was a beautiful tree.


 
I have a friend that works for Weyerhaueser and he said that it's something in the air that travels and lights in the tree tops. If you'll notice the lettuce like fungus that grows from the limbs of the maples this is what's killing them. From Morton west you don't see much of it. It's mainly in the east county area that's infected and doesn't seem to move much to the west. Looks like some nice firewood you're cutting up there.


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## slowp (Apr 19, 2011)

What you'll see in the maples is a dead branch towards the top of the tree. The next year it is dead. Quick. I got a Forest Service pathologist interested, but hadn't heard any results. 

I've been out burning the slash from the maple project. I'll go do more tomorrow. I just found a TICK on my neck....eeek. Crawlies everywhere, gotta go shower. 

Here's a picture of the line holding crew. 






View attachment 180631


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## madhatte (Apr 19, 2011)

Interesting. When did that start? I haven't worked in east Lewis County since the late 90's, and I don't remember seeing it there at the time.


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## slowp (Apr 19, 2011)

I can't answer that. I think it was going on when I moved back in 2005. The pathologist said there was a similar thing going on around Oakridge, OR. It is killing the native maples in yards and maples in the woods. 

.


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## nw axe man (Apr 19, 2011)

Yeah, it's been here for at least the last 20 years. When you see a few dead branches in the tops you can bet the whole tree will be gone in a year. I've paid attention to it since it was brought to my attention.
The thing you really have to pay attention to is the roots rotting. I had a good friend of mine up in the Cispus valley call me one winter to come up and fall about 4 in a clump. The wind was blowing and it was snowing a bit. I went up there to look at it and found that it leaned toward the little house he had rented. It would also reach the house. I was too nervous to cut it so we just decided to leave it till another day.


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## madhatte (Apr 20, 2011)

OK, now that you mention it, I can think of two trees that may be afflicted with this pathogen. Both are older, single-stem maples; one has a large dead branch about 75' up, the other blew down last winter and has mostly been picked apart by the firewood thieves. The root ball is coppicing nicely -- Is this thing strictly a top disease? 

EDIT: Oh snap, looky here what I just found. VEEEERY INTERESTING.

EDIT 2: I actually know a Sudden Oak Death Expert. Lemme talk to him and report back what I find.


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## 2dogs (Apr 20, 2011)

Additional info on SODS.
http://www.suddenoakdeath.org/


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## 2dogs (Apr 20, 2011)

slowp said:


> What you'll see in the maples is a dead branch towards the top of the tree. The next year it is dead. Quick. I got a Forest Service pathologist interested, but hadn't heard any results.
> 
> I've been out burning the slash from the maple project. I'll go do more tomorrow. I just found a TICK on my neck....eeek. Crawlies everywhere, gotta go shower.
> 
> ...


 
She is violating #18, napping near the line. Write her up!


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## madhatte (Apr 20, 2011)

2dogs said:


> She is violating #18, napping near the line. Write her up!


 
Aw, #18 is a "Watch Out" situation, not a Fire Order. I think there's sufficient backup and supervisory oversight to let this one pass without any paperwork.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 20, 2011)

Sudden Oak Death seems to be the culprit here in southern Oregon that's getting mature Pacific Madrone and larger Manzanita. There's a stretch from around Diamond Lake down to Eagle Point, Oregon that has seen a pretty severe infection among larger Madrones. It's not what I would characterize as a top-down foliage loss but rather a wilting of the entire leaf mass. I'll get some pictures this weekend of the Madrone symptoms and post them here. 

Laminate Root Rot isn't so prevalent here, one thinking for that is that our summers are dry and hot enough to keep it from getting established. It is quite prevalent over on the coast. I did a removal job in the early 90's at the Loon Lake resort just below the Elliot state forest by Reedsport that was all LRR. There was heavy thinning of foliage in the crowns (older growth DF) and white speck in some of the stumps. 

A BLM fire ecologist at LIFC thinks that moderate to severe forest floor fire (not necessarily stand-replacement) helps to control LRR and blue stain. So that would lead me to wonder how much Laminate is present up around Tillamook?


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## slowp (Apr 20, 2011)

If any of you are budding forest pathologists, I can sure show you some of the victims of whatever it is. I have one still standing. Dead, but standing. :msp_sad:


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## madhatte (Apr 20, 2011)

I'd like very much to see a few pictures, especially of any leaves or branches that show identifiable fruiting bodies, if such a thing is present. 

JJ: never worked on the Tillamook proper, but I did work some BLM ground between Greenleaf and Alsea; I definitely saw some LRR there (1997) but it didn't look anything like, say, the Willapas or the Black Hills in terms of scope or severity.


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## 2dogs (Apr 20, 2011)

Pitch canker on a Monterey Pine.






This pic wasn't taken for the tan-oaks but it does show SODS. It is our plant apocalyps.


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## slowp (Apr 20, 2011)

I can chop into the one maple and get some pictures. It has been dead for over a year now. Seems like the dying ones start having leaves turn in July. I'll get together with a friend who is good at picking out the sick trees. Stay tuned...maybe for a few months. opcorn:

I'm just seeing what I would call lichens growing on the limbs that I burned. So most of that evidence is gone. My bad. I'll look for those too.


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## madhatte (Apr 21, 2011)

Talked to my WSDOA Oak Death friend. He says he knows a UW researcher working near Elbe (I don't think he's at Pack Forest) who will be interested in this stuff. Science!


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## slowp (Apr 21, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Talked to my WSDOA Oak Death friend. He says he knows a UW researcher working near Elbe (I don't think he's at Pack Forest) who will be interested in this stuff. Science!



Interesting, my friend tried to get WSU interested years ago and they weren't. I don't know if she could even get through to any UW folks. She gave up. 

If you do get somebody, get hold of me and I'll see if she would be interested in talking to them. She, like others, has been watching this thing kill maples on her own property. 

A faller told me it was Vermicullim Wilt. I probably butchered the spelling on that one.


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## madhatte (Apr 21, 2011)

Will do. 

Meanwhile, here's a factsheet on Verticillum Wilt, to which Maples are listed as susceptible. Does this look like what you're seeing?


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## slowp (Apr 21, 2011)

Will that ring discoloration show on a dead tree? I may have to whack the high stump off to see a fresher bit of the tree. This is starting to get interesting.


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## madhatte (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm not sure. It's not one I'm particularly well-attuned to. I can spot white-speck conks from 100 yards away at midnight under a new moon, but maple pathology is new territory. Sure gonna find out more, though!


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## slowp (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm trying to show the white powdery? stuff that appears on the sick trees.





Here it is on the inside of the bark.




Looking at the top of a snag.




A closeup of the leafy lichen? found on limbs.





View attachment 180978

View attachment 180979

View attachment 180980

View attachment 180981


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## madhatte (Apr 22, 2011)

The lichen looks like good old Peltigera, which grows all over the place. 

The pitch streamers and the white stuff where cambium ought to be are strongly reminiscent of Armillaria, and it happens that there is a newly-described species which parasitizes bigleaf maples. I wonder if maybe that's the pathogen here?


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## RandyMac (Apr 23, 2011)

While I recognized sick trees, I rarely went beyond considering how it would effect falling the tree or calculating defect. It's pretty easy to spot Bat-ears and such that indicate potential weak spots in the trunk. I did read up on Arceuthobium spp., Viscaceae aka Dwarf Mistletoe. There is a whole bunch of that crap in the Klamath/Siskiyous and Sierras, can make for an ugly tree.


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## madhatte (Apr 23, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> I rarely went beyond considering how it would effect falling the tree or calculating defect.


 
That's exactly the knowledge I'm looking for. I have a picture in my head of an overlay of 'ologist knowledge vs logger knowledge, a bunch of overlaps, and finding a way to train our crews to tell me what I want to know.


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## RandyMac (Apr 23, 2011)

There are observable effects that lead the uninformed to believe that trees are diseased. Case in point was a stand of Sierra Lodgepole along the banks of the Yuba. It was a mixed age stand, with 10 year old saplings and fully mature trees. The mature trees ran in the 20" range, big for Lodgepole, all had an orange band at the base, extending up maybe a foot. The younger trees were clear of the orange. The landowner was in a minor panic thinking that his trees were dying. I could see nothing else wrong and chipped some of the orange off. After a bit of study, I determined that the orange was lichen that had changed color after being submerged in flood water.


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## slowp (Apr 23, 2011)

If that white is armillaria, I think that the theory of two bad things hitting the maples at the same time might be true. Now, what is making them die so fast?


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## madhatte (Apr 24, 2011)

Haven't heard back from the state Sudden Oak Death specialist. I'm thinking he'll have some insight.



RandyMac said:


> After a bit of study


 
A bit of study goes a long way!


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## RandyMac (Apr 29, 2011)

In the last few weeks we have been running up to Grants Pass for appointments. I have observed that something is after the Madrones, in a big way. They are very sick, withered leaves, starting on the lower limbs, leaves are turning a reddish brown. I saw quite a few blown down, maybe roots are also effected. The Tanbarks look good though. The scruffy ass pines along the Illinios River aren't looking good, but perhaps they never did.


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## madhatte (Apr 29, 2011)

Madrone decline is well-documented, though poorly-understood. From my observations, it appears that a declining Madrone often shows bacterial, fungal, viral, and insect damage to varying degrees in different places on the same tree! This one has a lot of folks worried, as Madrone is not typically a commercial species, so it is likely to be overlooked as an indicator of overall forest health. The tanoaks (_Lithocarpus_ spp) appear also to be indicators of overall forest health, and have been identified as susceptible to Sudden Oak Death. 

Meanwhile -- I've discovered something very interesting regarding Laminated Root Rot: the stain, visible on the stump for only a short time between cutting and six weeks later when it fades to invisibility, develops like a photograph after a day or two exposed to air. It is brightest about a week after cutting. I'm not sure when the fading begins. I'll post here when I know more. 

This is important because if we're going to be asking log crews to mark stumps when they see the stain, perhaps they should be looking at the stumps some time after falling? I can see that this is impractical, but so is me chasing after a faller two days later to look for disease. 

Meh. I just want a map of where disease is and how severe and how quickly it moves and through which soils and hosts. Is that too much to ask of the universe?


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## Gologit (Apr 29, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Meh. I just want a map of where disease is and how severe and how quickly it moves and through which soils and hosts. Is that too much to ask of the universe?


 
Realistically? Yes, it probably is too much to ask. Especially if you're going to depend on logging crews as a reliable and constant source of information.

Most of the guys I work with have a very limited range of knowledge about tree diseases and, quite frankly, no real urge to increase it. Our focus is, quite necessarily, on harvest. On occasion we've mentioned things we've seen to our 'ologists and foresters but we very seldom get any feedback on it. If the information that we've given is ignored constantly we tend to quit giving it.

I wish there was more information available to us in the woods about stuff like you're talking about. Most of what we know are easily identifiable things that pertain to our harvesting. 

Maybe what I'm talking about is one of the biggest differences between working government ground and private sales. I work almost totally on private ground and the focus is completely different.

I wish you success with your projects. I think it will do a lot of good and help insure a sustainable timber supply. Just don't look for a huge amount of help from us knuckle-draggers. We'd help if we could but until we're better informed as to what to look for and until we feel that our input is going to do some real good you're pretty much on your own.


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## madhatte (Apr 29, 2011)

Gologit said:


> We'd help if we could but until we're better informed as to what to look for and until we feel that our input is going to do some real good you're pretty much on your own.



And therein lies the challenge: information has to be a two-way street. Academia has this nasty habit of keeping its cards close to the chest, on account of the "Publish Or Perish" mentality and the desire to not get "scooped". Companies do research only to solve "problems" which cost them money.


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## slowp (Apr 30, 2011)

Both of you have described the FS also. We "field people" were deemed to be uneducated. When our marking crew on the Okanogan reported seeing a spotted owl, and it was a spotted owl, the wildlife biologist did not even get out to check. We were told that it was not the right habitat, therefore it was not a spotted owl. We had a couple of amateur birdwatchers on the crew. The bird fit the description to a T and held still while we looked at it. After that, our foreman was so mad, he said he would report seeing a spotted owl on every sale and he did. 

Later somebody else who was deemed to be more of an expert verified the original spotted owl did exist. 

Now, in the FS contract, there is a time limit mentioned for getting the borax stuff on the stumps for laminated root rot. I can't think of what it is, because we didn't commonly use that provision. It is in the Upper Cispus contract. 

That's why I'm wondering about feller buncher operators. How well can they see the stain from the machine? Will they be inclined to get out of their warm cab and look around? Or will some flunkie be hired to follow behind, marking the stumps and sprinkling the borax on the stumps? 

Just something to think about.


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## RandyMac (Apr 30, 2011)

Eh, log it flat and burn it all, start over.


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## Gologit (Apr 30, 2011)

slowp said:


> Now, in the FS contract, there is a time limit mentioned for getting the borax stuff on the stumps for laminated root rot. I can't think of what it is, because we didn't commonly use that provision. It is in the Upper Cispus contract.
> 
> That's why I'm wondering about feller buncher operators. How well can they see the stain from the machine? Will they be inclined to get out of their warm cab and look around? Or will some flunkie be hired to follow behind, marking the stumps and sprinkling the borax on the stumps?
> 
> Just something to think about.


 
The last Circus job I was on was a combination of feller buncher and hand falling. We had to hire a kid to sprinkle stumps. There's no way you could have a f/b operator climb out of his machine every time he dropped a tree. That would be so wildly counter-productive that it wouldn't make sense to have the machine there in the first place. I suggested it to one of the f/b guys, just for fun, and his suggestion involved a sack of borax, the USFS, Squeaky the Forester, and an anatomical impossibility. We called the forester Squeaky because she had a voice like Alvin the Chipmunk and kinda looked like him too.


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## RandyMac (Apr 30, 2011)

"Squeaky", atleast that is a name that can be used in an open forum.


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## Gologit (Apr 30, 2011)

madhatte said:


> And therein lies the challenge: information has to be a two-way street. Academia has this nasty habit of keeping its cards close to the chest, on account of the "Publish Or Perish" mentality and the desire to not get "scooped". Companies do research only to solve "problems" which cost them money.


 
Well said. Two entirely different viewpoints, and until something can be done to bridge that gap progress will be slow. It's already _too_ slow. 

I think that both sides would do well to adjust their attitudes toward the other. We have a mutual interest even if the methodology is completely different.

Okay...we've defined the problem. That was easy. Now, how do we fix it?


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## RandyMac (Apr 30, 2011)

What does the borax do? I'm clueless and not the first time.


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## Gologit (Apr 30, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Eh, log it flat and burn it all, start over.


 
LOL...there are those who would do that. Even in this day and age.

Most of them sit in mahogany paneled offices far away from the logging country and plot new ways to turn trees into dollars. And that's all the timber means to them...just dollars.


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## RandyMac (Apr 30, 2011)

Didn't old Gifford Pinchot think exactly that.


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## Gologit (Apr 30, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> What does the borax do? I'm clueless and not the first time.


 
The way I understand it, it was supposed to prevent the spread of some kind of tree disease. Here's the good part...that particular disease was not present, and never had been present, in that particular part of the woods. Nobody could really tell us if was going to actually do any real good. Nobody told us much of anything at all.

Madhatte could probably give us a better fix on just what disease it was we were preventing. I wish he'd been there. Squeaky would get all upset when we asked too many questions and get positively irate if we really pressed for answers. "It's in the contract" was her basic response...and usually her only one.


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## RandyMac (Apr 30, 2011)

Just powder the whole place, like liming an acid lake.


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## Gologit (Apr 30, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Just powder the whole place, like liming an acid lake.


 
Ssssshhhhhhh!!! Don't give 'em any ideas.


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## floyd (Apr 30, 2011)

Up here it was cut it, low burn it, black grow it back. Or cut it low, plant it to grass& trees, turn cows out, cows eat seedlings. 

Loggers cut logs. Foresters suppossedly show them where to cut logs.
The disconnect on USFS & BLM is the summer crews who do not have a clue about extracting logs.


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## madhatte (Apr 30, 2011)

Borax as a disease retardant has been largely discredited as being ineffective, expensive, and negatively affecting native vegetation. Fortunately, that discredit came from the very contracts you guys are describing, where it didn't work, or at least not well enough to justify the expense and side-effects. Fact is, forest pathogens co-evolved with their hosts and the two keep each other in check. Without disease, forests would grow to one (huge) size and stop. This is why Clements' idea of a "climax" community is considered archaic . 

As for solving the problem? Yeah, well, I'll let you know.


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## slowp (May 1, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Borax as a disease retardant has been largely discredited as being ineffective, expensive, and negatively affecting native vegetation. Fortunately, that discredit came from the very contracts you guys are describing, where it didn't work, or at least not well enough to justify the expense and side-effects. Fact is, forest pathogens co-evolved with their hosts and the two keep each other in check. Without disease, forests would grow to one (huge) size and stop. This is why Clements' idea of a "climax" community is considered archaic .
> 
> As for solving the problem? Yeah, well, I'll let you know.



The planners do not listen to such info. I believe that quite a few of them will not change because to do so would entail taking more time to type a different page or two, instead of just replacing one sale name with another throughout the document. Harsh? Well, I've read a few environmental assessments where they missed changing the name of the sale and have the previously sold sale name in the document. 

I also heard that subsoiling skid trails was passe' but our folks insist it must be done. I mentioned that it often popped the roots of trees when done with a subsoiler in thinnings. I was told that that was my fault for locating skid trails TOO CLOSE TO THE LEAVE TREES. Mind you, this is Western Warshington where trees are spaced a wee bit closer together. Probably the greatest spacing was 28 feet at the max and randomly done. 

Reason number ?? for retiring.


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## Gologit (May 1, 2011)

madhatte said:


> As for solving the problem? Yeah, well, I'll let you know.


 
Good luck. As people my age, both government and private sector, retire and leave this business, the responsibility falls to you. I think you'll have it tougher than we did.

You have better tools to deal with the ever increasing complexity of managing the timber and the land. You have better science, better equipment, and better communication. You'll need them.

Maybe it's like the prime axiom of medical practice..."First, do no harm".


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## RandyMac (May 1, 2011)

I'm thinkin' the "The Moustache Of Understanding" will have a better chance at fitting the puzzle pieces in place, than a book learnt egghead. There is no substitute for on the ground expirience.


Nate, lookin' forward to chewing over "stuff" with you.


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## slowp (May 1, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> I'm thinkin' the "The Moustache Of Understanding" will have a better chance at fitting the puzzle pieces in place, than a book learnt egghead. There is no substitute for on the ground expirience.
> 
> 
> Nate, lookin' forward to chewing over "stuff" with you.



Unfortunately, unless The Moustache Of Understanding has at least a Master's Degree in pathology, nobody in the higher ranks will consider the solution credible. 

Hmmmm. The sun is blazing in and I see a solid smudge of dried dog nose liquid on the lower 1/5 of the window in the door. I'll have to do something about that.


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## madhatte (May 2, 2011)

Master's Degree. Harrumph. Well, I still have a bunch of GI Bill money left to burn, and more and more it's looking like I'm gonna need the Paper Leverage that stupid degree will give me, so I guess I'd better get crackin' before that cash turns to a pumpkin. 

Meanwhile, Randy, June is just a few weeks off and you can bet I've got a head full of hot issues I'm steamed about which can only be worked out through liberal application of booze, tobacco and BS'in.

Edit: Oh, and as for



slowp said:


> I've read a few environmental assessments where they missed changing the name of the sale and have the previously sold sale name in the document.


 

I've seen the same. What? Gov't agencies boiler-plating documents? UNHEARD-OF


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## slowp (May 2, 2011)

This is the reason for the boiler plating. 

"I need to get that done and out of the way so I can do my REAL job."

I was never sure what was considered to be their real job since the majority of their funding came from the timber budget. Oh well. Retirement is good. Gotta go do stuff.


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## madhatte (May 11, 2011)

New question, same general theme: 

Where have you seen Blue Stain in Ponderosa Pine, and how severe was it? Where is it most commonly in the stem (i.e. first log, second log, etc)? How closely associated with pine beetles does it appear to be? Do you see it in apparently-healthy trees, or only in declining or dead ones?


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## RPM (May 11, 2011)

Typically, I see stain in green ponderosa attacked trees similar to mountain pine beetle in Lodgepole pine. Our ponderosa got tag teamed by both the mountain pine beetle and western pine beetle these last couple of years so I am not totaly sure which one causes the stain to spread any quicker.

The pictures are from a Ponderosa salvage log that I supervised in 2009 in the south Okanagan valley. The stain like lodgepole pine is most noticable in the lower bole - up to 20' and drops off. The height of stain I think is related more to where the tree was attacked and entry points. I don't know how much the tree can transport the stain up the stem.




View attachment 183634
View attachment 183635
View attachment 183636


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## madhatte (May 11, 2011)

Excellent information, thank you. In case you're wondering, what I'm after is ground-based divergence from the "available literature". I've been finding some things which are inconsistent with the way "the books" say they should be, and I am interested in finding if I'm the only one finding this stuff.


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## smokechase II (May 11, 2011)

*blue stain*

I've noticed blue stain starting on Ponderosa when the bark is tight and the tree showing just a few red needles.
Under the area where it is being hit by beetles.

The wood does not appear to have weakened in regard to the holding capability of the holding wood.

============

This is in regard to beetle kill trees being removed.

In some instances we were allowed to remove hazard trees from near roads that hadn't 'died' yet but were showing enough beetle hits to be deemed worthy.
So this was on Ponderosa over 2 foot in diameter.


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## madhatte (May 18, 2011)

OK, new question, same theme: 

Let's say that you fall a tree with a bit of a lean. The wood is extra-abrasive near the outside of the sapwood, perhaps to the point of throwing sparks. Further in, it gets very soft, until, popping the face out, you see that the center is hollow. You put the back cut in, and the tree comes down without major incident, aside from a chain that needs touched up. The wood visible on the stump is all sorts of different colors and textures, and the rot in the log looks to go at least five feet up the butt. 

Is there any good reason to bother figuring out what caused the tree to be like this, or do you just buck it up and leave the butt as CWD? Is there anybody on the landing who is interested in knowing about this sort of thing, or is it a non-issue on the ground?


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## RPM (May 18, 2011)

madhatte said:


> OK, new question, same theme:
> 
> Let's say that you fall a tree with a bit of a lean. The wood is extra-abrasive near the outside of the sapwood, perhaps to the point of throwing sparks. Further in, it gets very soft, until, popping the face out, you see that the center is hollow. You put the back cut in, and the tree comes down without major incident, aside from a chain that needs touched up. The wood visible on the stump is all sorts of different colors and textures, and the rot in the log looks to go at least five feet up the butt.
> 
> Is there any good reason to bother figuring out what caused the tree to be like this, or do you just buck it up and leave the butt as CWD? Is there anybody on the landing who is interested in knowing about this sort of thing, or is it a non-issue on the ground?


 
Was it located on an old stream fan / flood plain where there is evidence of past slides / debris flows / high water events? What is the spp?

We have an area around here that was logged back when the CPR rail mainline was pushed through (this is the transcontinental railway). The stand at the time was large old growth cedar and was on a large alluvial fan. The second growth stand is on top of the last large debris flow event and the old growth stumps are buried about 1/2 way up (they are tall spring board stumps). I know the last debris went half way up b/c I can see the ground layer inside that the old growth stump grew on. Kinda neat if you are into hydrogeomorphic processes -- that one is for gologit


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## Gologit (May 18, 2011)

RPM said:


> Kinda neat if you are into hydrogeomorphic processes -- that one is for gologit


 
I can't even _pronounce_ hydro-whatever-it-was. :biggrin:

Good information in your post, though. Makes sense.


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## Gologit (May 18, 2011)

madhatte said:


> OK, new question, same theme:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any good reason to bother figuring out what caused the tree to be like this, or do you just buck it up and leave the butt as CWD? Is there anybody on the landing who is interested in knowing about this sort of thing, or is it a non-issue on the ground?


 
The quick answer is no. The guys on the landing are all about production and production usually takes precedence over pathology. As a rule it's a non-issue...at least on the kind of ground I work. That's not always a good thing because a lot of information that would be valuable to someone like you is lost.
If we got into a big enough stand of a particular anomaly we'd probably try to get somebody's attention. Whether or not we'd be successful in having somebody drive clear out to the woods to look at something we consider unusual is another story.


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## slowp (May 18, 2011)

Oooh, a rant here. Getting somebody from the Forest Service out would require a long time of staying out of an area. The 'ologists would have to check their calenders, then check the alignment of the stars, make sure there are no school children to go talk to about their careers as 'ologists and then might be able to make it out in a month or two if it isn't raining and if they'll have help to drive on a road that has scary log trucks on it. Even trying to bribe with cookies doesn't work. They are likely to be vegematics and anti-sugar. :msp_wink:


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## Joe46 (May 18, 2011)

slowp said:


> Oooh, a rant here. Getting somebody from the Forest Service out would require a long time of staying out of an area. The 'ologists would have to check their calenders, then check the alignment of the stars, make sure there are no school children to go talk to about their careers as 'ologists and then might be able to make it out in a month or two if it isn't raining and if they'll have help to drive on a road that has scary log trucks on it. Even trying to bribe with cookies doesn't work. They are likely to be vegematics and anti-sugar. :msp_wink:


 
That is just plain funny:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Gologit (May 18, 2011)

Joe46 said:


> That is just plain funny:hmm3grin2orange:


 
Yup. Funny...but true.


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## madhatte (May 18, 2011)

Gologit said:


> As a rule it's a non-issue...at least on the kind of ground I work. That's not always a good thing because a lot of information that would be valuable to someone like you is lost... Whether or not we'd be successful in having somebody drive clear out to the woods to look at something we consider unusual is another story.



Too true, and bummer that. However, the fact that you guys do notice this stuff, even if there's no way to relay that information to anybody who would be interested in doing anything with that observation, is at once encouraging and daunting.



slowp said:


> The 'ologists would have to check their calenders, then check the alignment of the stars, make sure there are no school children to go talk to about their careers as 'ologists and then might be able to make it out in a month or two if it isn't raining and if they'll have help to drive on a road that has scary log trucks on it


 
Guh. Tell me about it. Every day I do my telephone rounds to see who's available to answer questions. I hate leaving messages, so if I don't get anybody on a given day, I just try again later. I always have a stack of questions for the experts written in my notebook for whenever I get the chance to ask them.


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## RandyMac (May 19, 2011)

Bob has it, noticed but rarely given much thought unless unusual. Diseased trees are rated for defect. On the other hand, a superb tree or stand will get talked about. I didn't believe the tales about Salmon Creek, until I saw it. Yeah yeah, Yeager Crick area.


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## Gologit (May 19, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Too true, and bummer that. However, the fact that you guys do notice this stuff, even if there's no way to relay that information to anybody who would be interested in doing anything with that observation, is at once encouraging and daunting.


 
Of _course_ we notice it...we look at trees every day. 

What I wonder about, since a saw log is basically without value or purpose until it's turned into lumber, is what kind of recovery the mill is getting. How much is lost to defect or disease and how much is lost to each specific type?
I don't know anything about sawmills but if a certain kind of defect was prevalent throughout a sale wouldn't it be worthwhile to track the logs and see what kind of lumber they made?
As a rule, when the logs hit the mill, they're scaled or weighed, and then just decked according to species and size. There's no separation by defect or disease.

Just something else for you to mull over. :msp_smile:


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## slowp (May 19, 2011)

There isn't much defect in our second growth stands. Root rot would be about the only thing, or sweep. The latter is bucked out by the faller, or processor and you won't see it at the mill. I did see a scary load headed to the chipping place.

Time is money in the woods. I don't think I've ever seen guys shut down to ponder the defect.


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## madhatte (May 19, 2011)

Gologit said:


> I don't know anything about sawmills but if a certain kind of defect was prevalent throughout a sale wouldn't it be worthwhile to track the logs and see what kind of lumber they made?



Great. Now I'm thinking again. 

IT HURTS


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## slowp (May 19, 2011)

It is called *A Mill Study*.


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## RPM (May 19, 2011)

The problem with defect is that it never leaves the landing and ends up in chunk pile. Our mill and peeler plant have pretty tight standards for loads coming in. Anything that doesn’t make spec is usually not allowed to unload or the logger was fined. The mill is paying for a certain grade of log so the tight rules on grading. There is always some hidden defect that doesn’t show until it goes through the head rig but sending avoidable defect to the mill is a no no. Any type of butt rot gets chunked off until you are into sound wood. Checks, twist, crooks .... either it makes the spec or into the pile. We have an ok pulp market so there is a home for some junk, but when you bought the sale thinking it was high grade sawlog or a peeler stand and it turns out to be pulp then the chit hits the fan.

We buy a lot of gov't sales and if we don't know the area or who did the development work we spend some time looking around, looking at the cruise reports and if suspicious take out the saw to check. Destructive sampling is an invaluable tool (if permitted) to verify the condition of a stand if it makes you twitchy. Hemlock and cedar send alarm bells off around here. So does large dia.high elevation spruce – cubicle butt rot (CBR) is very prevalent. We do lots of measurements to see how much vol will be lost to long butting at the landing. Its worth the time and cost.

Watch heli logger on Discovery, they bore every tree on the stump before they touch it.


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## madhatte (May 20, 2011)

RPM said:


> There is always some hidden defect that doesn’t show until it goes through the head rig but sending avoidable defect to the mill is a no no.


 
Yep, and we always factor in a 10% hidden defect into our cruises, as well as downgrading form class a bit on tally trees, in order to not rip anybody off. Good call on the cubical rot -- it's not a very vigorous tree-killer, but it's ALWAYS THERE in the older stuff.


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## RandyMac (May 20, 2011)

If you ever want to know if you bucked your logs correctly, ask a truck driver.


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## madhatte (May 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> If you ever want to know if you bucked your logs correctly, ask a truck driver.



WAHAAALLLL... as it happens, I know just the fellow to ask. Or maybe three. Good advice! Results of this cold-call adventure will be posted here with the rest...

Just so you guys know... the original study I started this thread for? Already I've written a procedure and a results paper. I've been asked to split the paper in two and write them both up. The comments I've received here have been invaluable, and I thank you all.


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## slowp (May 20, 2011)

View attachment 184726
View attachment 184727
View attachment 184728


I'm returning to this spot tomorrow for more wood. Any more pictures?


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## madhatte (May 20, 2011)

The way the standing tree is more boogered up on one side than the other rings a bell. I know where there's one with similar symptoms. That might prove to be a useful lead -- thanks for the pics!


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## slowp (May 20, 2011)

madhatte said:


> The way the standing tree is more boogered up on one side than the other rings a bell. I know where there's one with similar symptoms. That might prove to be a useful lead -- thanks for the pics!



There are many of those in the valley. The leaves have come or not come on so we can see the sickies.


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