# Dyno tested....Mastermind's ported 261cm vs Stock 261cm Gotta see this one.



## chadihman (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm beat but got the testing done tonight. My rpm sensor wouldn't read past 11500 rpms. I'd still like to test up to 13000 if I can get a shaft rpm sensor that will read that high.
Wow Randy this is a hot 261cm.


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## Terry Syd (Jun 25, 2014)

Very nice!


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## Ron660 (Jun 26, 2014)

Great data....good job.


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## cobey (Jun 26, 2014)

sweet!!


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## Big_Wood (Jun 26, 2014)

just remember guys, randy's all booked up til mid october  that's one heck of an increase.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jun 26, 2014)

Very cool, and thanks for taking the time to do all this. I would love to get you my screw carb 261 that Randy Masterminded to see how it compares to the Mtronic. You rock Chad! What does Randy say? Something about the kind of feedback that's good to get....


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## Duane(Pa) (Jun 26, 2014)

westcoaster90 said:


> just remember guys, randy's all booked up til mid october  that's one heck of an increase.


Yea, I aint' too good at math but that looks like an extra horse & a half at 10k to me!


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## Spectre468 (Jun 26, 2014)

Dayum!


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## Duane(Pa) (Jun 26, 2014)

I don't know a lot about this stuff, and feel kind of stupid to ask, but what size rim were you using and would the Torque and/or HP numbers change if you switch rim sizes?


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## DanTheCanadian (Jun 26, 2014)

OMG that thing is hot! Is that a woods port or a race port? Did you have to cement that baby down like we used to do to big blocks? What an increase!


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

Wow! Never got the ported saw high enough to see the power drop off!!

I've said this in other dyno threads - but I'll repeat it anyway - it's not peak power that shows work capacity of an engine, it's area under the graph. And that's an amazing increase in area under the graph!!!!!!!

Seriously, from 8000ish up it's making more than standard at peak.


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## Dieselshawn (Jun 26, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> I don't know a lot about this stuff, and feel kind of stupid to ask, but what size rim were you using and would the Torque and/or HP numbers change if you switch rim sizes?



Duane: it's a small spline 7 pin for 3/8 chain on smaller saws. There's not many selections for different sizes.


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## OC455 (Jun 26, 2014)

Can't wait to see what a converted 038 Super to Magnum ported will do.....impressive numbers for sure.


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## Gopher Hunter (Jun 26, 2014)

Any pics of the port work? 

Congrats on the very nice results


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## AKDoug (Jun 26, 2014)

Puts that into 362cm territory. Impressive.


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## CR888 (Jun 26, 2014)

l am glad this is happening! Mastermind need not fear the dyno, thats probably the best advertisment a builder could hope for. Thanks Chad! opcorn:


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## cgraham1 (Jun 26, 2014)

chadihman said:


>


It makes me happy  that I have two saws in the works with Randy right now...


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

Chad, is this 361 run apples to apples with the 261 run? Would it be fair to compare them?
A sticky where all these graphs could get dumped would be really cool.


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## wyk (Jun 26, 2014)

It looks like ya need to get a different tacho for a second opinion on RPM, though.


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## Terry Syd (Jun 26, 2014)

Looking at the linear rise of the power, there is a sudden dip. I wonder in this this case if it might have been some light detonation. If so, then that dip might not be there when cutting wood.

A dyno puts an extended load on an engine and the heat builds up. Maybe a flash run up to the dip might tell us more.

Chad, that dyno of yours is truly fantastic.


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## wyk (Jun 26, 2014)

Terry Syd said:


> Looking at the linear rise of the power, there is a sudden dip. I wonder in this this case if it might have been some light detonation. If so, then that dip might not be there when cutting wood.
> 
> A dyno puts an extended load on an engine and the heat builds up. Maybe a flash run up to the dip might tell us more.
> 
> Chad, that dyno of yours is truly fantastic.



That is under a load. Dyno tests are always under a load. So, it is unlikely that dip will disappear in wood.


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## Terry Syd (Jun 26, 2014)

I'm referring to a hot engine, heat soaked. It is unlikely that a 50cc saw will be used for milling, rather it would be for limbing.

Chad, if you do try that experiment, you have to remember that an air-cooled two-stoke can loose up to 20% of its power when it is heat soaked. If you take a 'cold' reading you will get a erroneous reading that is too high (often done by people to inflate their figures). You'd need to bring the engine up to operating temperatures first, then check the dip - (or if you had some race gas handy...)


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

Great article on detonation

http://www.klemmvintage.com/deto.htm

It's nearly 4am in Tennessee, when does that monkey wake up and add his 2c?


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## wyk (Jun 26, 2014)

Terry Syd said:


> I'm referring to a hot engine, heat soaked. It is unlikely that a 50cc saw will be used for milling, rather it would be for limbing.
> 
> Chad, if you do try that experiment, you have to remember that an air-cooled two-stoke can loose up to 20% of its power when it is heat soaked. If you take a 'cold' reading you will get a erroneous reading that is too high (often done by people to inflate their figures). You'd need to bring the engine up to operating temperatures first, then check the dip - (or if you had some race gas handy...)



Didn't Chad say he did 5 runs minimum? I would think adding a bit of air flow and taking temperatures wouldn't hurt.


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## chadihman (Jun 26, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> I don't know a lot about this stuff, and feel kind of stupid to ask, but what size rim were you using and would the Torque and/or HP numbers change if you switch rim sizes?


 It's all in the calculations. 


weedkilla said:


> Chad, is this 361 run apples to apples with the 261 run? Would it be fair to compare them?View attachment 356640
> A sticky where all these graphs could get dumped would be really cool.


 I could probably throw in a test with the ported 361. It will have to wait though as I have a pile of things to do now.


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## whitedogone (Jun 26, 2014)

Terry Syd said:


> I'm referring to a hot engine, heat soaked. It is unlikely that a 50cc saw will be used for milling, rather it would be for limbing.
> 
> Chad, if you do try that experiment, you have to remember that an air-cooled two-stoke can loose up to 20% of its power when it is heat soaked. If you take a 'cold' reading you will get a erroneous reading that is too high (often done by people to inflate their figures). You'd need to bring the engine up to operating temperatures first, then check the dip - (or if you had some race gas handy...)


 
Interesting....may be prudent to rig a temp probe on the test subjects. That is, if you aren't already doing so.


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I could probably throw in a test with the ported 361. It will have to wait though as I have a pile of things to do now.



Not certain I'd bother, ported 50 against stock 60 is interesting though....
I was really just asking whether it was fair to compare runs from different days. Whether you are seeing a large variation. Wasn't intending to distract you from the runs you want to try.


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## chadihman (Jun 26, 2014)

Any good info on a good tach that will read engine rpms correctly on a CM model or a shaft rpm sensor that will read up to 4500 rpms accurately would be nice. My current shaft rpm sensor works well up to 3300 rpms then the #'s drop and fluctuate. I might try a photo tach with a piece of reflective tape on the shaft love joy coupler. I'd make a metal bracket to hold the tach in place.


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## tacomatrd98 (Jun 26, 2014)

Anybody want to see how a Dozerdan 346xp compares? I have one that I would be willing to put on the dyno for the sake of curiosity. IIRC, chad is not that far from me. For that matter, take your pick of saws in my sig, they're all up for the job.


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## whitedogone (Jun 26, 2014)

chadihman said:


> Any good info on a good tach that will read engine rpms correctly on a CM model or a shaft rpm sensor that will read up to 4500 rpms accurately would be nice. My current shaft rpm sensor works well up to 3300 rpms then the #'s drop and fluctuate. I might try a photo tach with a piece of reflective tape on the shaft love joy coupler. I'd make a metal bracket to hold the tach in place.


 
Kinda old...... but.... 
http://www.k2dt.com/library_files/2901.pdf


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## VinceGU05 (Jun 26, 2014)

That's the best news a bloke with a new 261cm that has a booking with Randy could ever lay eyes on. 
Now the 4 month wait becomes more painful [emoji37][emoji12]


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## whitedogone (Jun 26, 2014)

might google Hall efect sensor

https://sites.google.com/site/measuringstuff/more-sensor-examples

http://www.readymaderc.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=165_10&products_id=147


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## blsnelling (Jun 26, 2014)

Awesome results!


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## Terry Syd (Jun 26, 2014)

weedkilla said:


> Great article on detonation
> 
> http://www.klemmvintage.com/deto.htm
> 
> It's nearly 4am in Tennessee, when does that monkey wake up and add his 2c?



Great article on detonation - Neat to see the rotary valve 350 Bighorn engine again, I ran one in my desert racer - freaking fast, great torque and a top end that didn't want to quit. It had a 68mm stroke which allowed for some outrageous RPM for a big bore (some of the 250s had a longer stroke).

The 'dip' may be detonation, it may be something else, but something is causing a dip in the power curve. With the dyno a few experiments could solve the issue. I can understand why Randy wants a dyno.


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## blsnelling (Jun 26, 2014)

I fail to see how a tenth of a HP dip is an issue. Why major on the minors, the miniscule? It's not like the thing has a programmable ECM where you can just tune it out.


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## Terry Syd (Jun 26, 2014)

Brad, perhaps the actual peak horsepower was where the dip occurred. In other words, the power curve was cut short when it went into detonation.


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## whitedogone (Jun 26, 2014)

whitedogone said:


> might google Hall efect sensor
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/measuringstuff/more-sensor-examples
> 
> http://www.readymaderc.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=165_10&products_id=147


 

I do believe the eagle tree logger with a hall effect sensor will do what you want. Heck, it will also record temps along the way. I'm sure there is even be a way to tweek their software to do your graphing of rpm/t/hp..... beyond my engineering skill set.
http://www.eagletreesystems.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54


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## LegDeLimber (Jun 26, 2014)

Heck! If It's ok with Cahdiham, all of you guys could chip in the funds to adopt me and then "re-home" me in Chadihams workshop.
Then just give me a worksheet of tests to run. 
mercy, just think of all the combos of mufflers, cylinders, carburetors, filters,
multi tap multi fuel tank rack with reg-mid-prem grade gas for changing in the middle of a run
then timing alterations, squish clearance and so on so forth.

It can be jaw dropping when you begin to think of the time it takes to work through all the trial runs of things.


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## chadihman (Jun 26, 2014)

LegDeLimber said:


> Heck! If It's ok with Cahdiham, all of you guys could chip in the funds to adopt me and then "re-home" me in Chadihams workshop.
> Then just give me a worksheet of tests to run.
> mercy, just think of all the combos of mufflers, cylinders, carburetors, filters,
> multi tap multi fuel tank rack with reg-mid-prem grade gas for changing in the middle of a run
> ...


Yeah makes me. To much testing not enough time.


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I fail to see how a tenth of a HP dip is an issue. Why major on the minors, the miniscule? It's not like the thing has a programmable ECM where you can just tune it out.


Because that is the beauty of tuning with a dyno. 
A dyno gives a pretty graph and a hp number that makes the owner of the engine feel good about themselves pays the bills with a dyno. But the real gains are twofold - the tuning gains that occur from picking up minuscule things that might be a sign of a problem and making a stack of small gains that add up. 
That dip says something isn't quite right, now we assume the engine had correct fueling - but without a wide band O2 sensor up the exhaust we just guess that mtronic is doing it's job. So there are really only two likely causes. That the ignition timing isn't quite right at that point or there is a resonant frequency issue in the inlet or exhaust tracts. 
Detonation is easy to check - throw in some higher octane fuel. When you dyno something that is hard to change ignition timing it's always handy to have a can of octane booster nearby. If that removes the dip then fixing it is valid, it will extend engine life. 
If it doesn't help then it may be something that is a pain to sort. You can try different exhaust and inlet configurations till you are blue in the face chasing something like that. 

Now this isn't a situation where every last tenth of a hp matters, so in one sense you are right, on the other hand it is expected to live a long and happy life so ensuring the tune is safe is important. 
The era of coarse tuning of fuel (mtronic/autotune), ignition timing and exhaust back pressure is coming to a rapid end.


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

Obviously I am talking about using a dyno as a development and diagnostic tool. That's not what chad is doing here. He's giving a saw a run, not doing development work for someone else.


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks Chad.......for all the hard work you have done.


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## Terry Syd (Jun 26, 2014)

"but without a wide band O2 sensor up the exhaust we just guess that mtronic is doing it's job."

That's why I'd like to get some schematics of what these systems are doing. There are too many assumptions about what is going on, perhaps there is fuel issue, perhaps there is a timing issue. In any case, these systems were designed to work around the EPA guidelines, they were not built for maximalising the horsepower. Perhaps we can do some tweaking if we knew what we were working with.


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

You guys over analyze this stuff......just saying.


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## c5rulz (Jun 26, 2014)

Great post Chad, keep up the good work.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jun 26, 2014)

My guess would be that there isn't as much magic going on with these chips as we imagine. They are after all, Gen. 1. Processors. What are the claims? Temp, altitude, fuel quality. That's about it. I'm sure they went with reliability over sophistication for their first rodeo.


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> You guys over analyze this stuff......just saying.


Well..... After we've gone "holy crap that's an amazing gain", there isn't much else to talk about. I've found dyno time addictive in the past, there is always one more thing to try. Perhaps we should have mentioned the bigger dip in the stock power curve.


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## MustangMike (Jun 26, 2014)

Really looking forward to similar gains from my 362 in Aug. Stock it is a very fast limbing saw, but it does slow down in the bigger wood. It is a lot more noticeable since I put the dual port muff, etc on the 044.

Stihl says peak HP on the stock 362 C-M is at 10,000 RPM, wonder if Chad's dyno would confirm that.


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## KG441c (Jun 26, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I fail to see how a tenth of a HP dip is an issue. Why major on the minors, the miniscule? It's not like the thing has a programmable ECM where you can just tune it out.


Do u think direct injection or efi on saws will be programmable?


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## blsnelling (Jun 26, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Do u think direct injection or efi on saws will be programmable?


I doubt the API or an interface will ever be made available.


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

weedkilla said:


> Well..... After we've gone "holy crap that's an amazing gain", there isn't much else to talk about. I've found dyno time addictive in the past, there is always one more thing to try. Perhaps we should have mentioned the bigger dip in the stock power curve.



When the discussion becomes too technical......the average member is gone.

But you are right.....there ain't much to say. 

I'm pretty happy with the way our 261s turn out. I had someone send me a PM asking about how I knew I was done tweaking this saw. How I figured that out sorta. I have no secrets.....if you want to know what timing numbers, etc I use in a certain saw.....just ask. Lots of hard work is the answer.....

My method consists of going two degrees at a time, on a different port at a time, with no other changes, and then testing in wood. I video the cuts and time them to compare. 

When I was testing this model I regularly had three or four of them here at a time. I would sometimes do all of them just a little different.....then test in popular cants. 

What I post on the threads, and on YouTube is just a very small part of the testing I've done. 

That's the reason there are times when I get even further behind. No way I can produce 5 - 6 saws a week and spend days testing a certain model. The testing is the most important thing we do though......without that, our saws would just be so-so....


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## redfin (Jun 26, 2014)

I know this has to be a lot of work for you Chad and I for one very much appreciate it. Randy asked to see his 660 run in the other thread, if your up for it we are at least in the same state.

Thanks again for putting in all this time.


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## Termite (Jun 26, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> When the discussion becomes too technical......the average member is gone.
> 
> But you are right.....there ain't much to say.
> 
> ...



And that ladies and gentlemen is why I don't port my own saws. Also, I would rather be in my woodshop making something.


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## bryanr2 (Jun 26, 2014)

westcoaster90 said:


> just remember guys, randy's all booked up til mid october  that's one heck of an increase.




and now we all have a graph to see the reason.


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## Ron660 (Jun 26, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I'm beat but got the testing done tonight. My rpm sensor wouldn't read past 11500 rpms. I'd still like to test up to 13000 if I can get a shaft rpm sensor that will read that high.
> Wow Randy this is a hot 261cm.


 
Ever tested a ported 660? I have one if you'd like to try it.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jun 26, 2014)

Poor Chad. His Dyno will be booked through Thanksgiving by the Fourth of July....


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

He needs to charge for dyno runs.


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## bryanr2 (Jun 26, 2014)

yall better book your Mastermind appts. His "stock" just went up even further with the dyno testing. When the evening crowd gets here he will be booked to next spring.


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## Ron660 (Jun 26, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I'm beat but got the testing done tonight. My rpm sensor wouldn't read past 11500 rpms. I'd still like to test up to 13000 if I can get a shaft rpm sensor that will read that high.
> Wow Randy this is a hot 261cm.


 
Increase in HP of ported 261, compared to stock 261, at these rpm ranges:
11500 - 43.7%
9500 - 21%
7500 - 12.9%
Factory HP specs for the 261 is 3.8HP which was at 9500 rpms. At those rpms, the ported saw still had a 21% increase in HP. Small price to pay for such an increase in performance!


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

You are correct with your percentages.......many times I see them figured incorrectly. 

What is it you do again?


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## MustangMike (Jun 26, 2014)

The gains are great, but I'm more impressed with the plateau of power from 10,000 - 11,500 RPM. Hopefully, the engine will stay in that range "in the cut".

That range is so dramatically different from the stock saw that you would not know the two were related.

Great job Randy. This graph is just further validation of what everyone says about your work, and your own internal testing.

And Chad, you can have a new career if you want it (full or part time). There will be no end to builders and customers who want to see what their saw can do.

You may need to "climate control" your testing area so that all results are comparable.


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## showrguy (Jun 26, 2014)

he's a percentages professor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,silly...


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Great job Randy. This graph is just further validation of what everyone says about your work........



Oh great......I really didn't need my head to swell anymore. 

Now I gotta go work some steps to get my ego back under control.


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## MustangMike (Jun 26, 2014)

The fact that you say that means were OK!


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## Chris-PA (Jun 26, 2014)

Good job on the saw and the dyno!

As for the "dip", there is no way to tell if it is even there. Those numbers are probably well within the margin of error and the resolution of the dyno (no denigration intended at all). What you see in these graphs is the characteristics of the saw superimposed on the characteristics of the dyno. The dyno must have some error curve to it as few things are perfect, and since it would be quite difficult to baseline the dyno characteristic by itself then the best use is to compare the two saws rather than as a absolute HP output from one saw.


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## whitedogone (Jun 26, 2014)

Chad, here is a great place for all sorts of gizmos.
http://www.digikey.com


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## Ron660 (Jun 26, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> Good job on the saw and the dyno!
> 
> As for the "dip", there is no way to tell if it is even there. Those numbers are probably well within the margin of error and the resolution of the dyno (no denigration intended at all). What you see in these graphs is the characteristics of the saw superimposed on the characteristics of the dyno. The dyno must have some error curve to it as few things are perfect, and since it would be quite difficult to baseline the dyno characteristic by itself then the best use is to compare the two saws rather than as a absolute HP output from one saw.


 
His dyno is very accurate. Stihl factory specs for a stock 261 is 3.8 HP. His graph shows the stock 261 peaking at 3.8 HP.


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## mountainlake (Jun 26, 2014)

For all of you guys that say to run a stock saw 10000 to 12000 rpm in the cut you are full of bs and these HP charts prove it, modded is a different story. I'll be reminding you any time I hear my saw holds 12000 rpm in the cut unless it's been modded. Steve


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## chadihman (Jun 26, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> His dyno is very accurate. Stihl factory specs for a stock 261 is 3.8 HP. His graph shows the stock 261 peaking at 3.8 HP.


No my dyno reads lower HP than Stihl states. I have some drag that I account for. There's lots of calculations from testing to line graph making. Good thing I paid attention in math class. Every dyno has #s to add.


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## chadihman (Jun 26, 2014)

Hey Randy, do you have a thread of your 261 getting the goodies or a before after video you could share the link on here?


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

I built that saw while doing this thread....

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ms261-vs-ms261-c-m-comparison.243686/


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## HuskStihl (Jun 26, 2014)

mountainlake said:


> For all of you guys that say to run a stock saw 10000 to 12000 rpm in the cut you are full of bs and these HP charts prove it, modded is a different story. I'll be reminding you any time I hear my saw holds 12000 rpm in the cut unless it's been modded. Steve


Unless it's an Echo. I hear those will hold 12k in the cut if you mod the muffler and ditch the H jet limiter.


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## mountainlake (Jun 26, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Unless it's an Echo. I hear those will hold 12k in the cut if you mod the muffler and ditch the H jet limiter.



Not a chance, most likely around 9000 is where they cut the fastest and they don't fall flat on their face as soon as you get a little below 9000 . Steve


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## HuskStihl (Jun 26, 2014)

mountainlake said:


> Not a chance, most likely around 9000 is where they cut the fastest and they don't fall flat on their face as soon as you get a little below 9000 . Steve


I must have reached the wrong mountainlake


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## Mike from Maine (Jun 26, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Unless it's an Echo. I hear those will hold 12k in the cut if you mod the muffler and ditch the H jet limiter.


You got that backwards, ditch the limiter and crank in the h needle till she's running on fumes. She'll hold 12k in the cut for at least half a tank.


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## mountainlake (Jun 26, 2014)

You won't find one tread about me bragging that my saw holds 11000 to 12000 rpm in the cut, I run them where they cut the fastest around 9000 to 9500 Rpm. If anyone is running a stock saw at 11000 to 12000 lean on it a little and it will get down to 9000 to 9500 and cut faster.. The same mountain lake Steve


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## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)




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## HuskStihl (Jun 26, 2014)

mountainlake said:


> You won't find one tread about me bragging that my saw holds 11000 to 12000 rpm in the cut, I run them where they cut the fastest around 9000 to 9500 Rpm. If anyone is running a stock saw at 11000 to 12000 lean on it a little and it will get down to 9000 to 9500 and cut faster.. The same mountain lake Steve


I was merely jesting about your passionate saw preference. No offense intended, and I was not implying you ever made 12k in the wood claims


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## AKDoug (Jun 26, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> My guess would be that there isn't as much magic going on with these chips as we imagine. They are after all, Gen. 1. Processors. What are the claims? Temp, altitude, fuel quality. That's about it. I'm sure they went with reliability over sophistication for their first rodeo.


Not even that much magic. The ignition module senses RPM and crankcase temp. That's it.


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## Chris-PA (Jun 26, 2014)

AKDoug said:


> Not even that much magic. The ignition module senses RPM and crankcase temp. That's it.


I think the system is really quite clever, mainly because it is so darn simple - no sensors! I think its biggest drawback is that it can only work at a fixed (WOT) throttle position, but this is OK for a saw.


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## Knobby57 (Jun 26, 2014)

I'm not surprised by the numbers . My mastermind 261 cm will run with a muffler ported 361 all day long . Is a very angry little saw. My local dealer is a good friend of my fathers and is very skeptical of modded saws and saw no reason for it. I let him run a few tanks through my 261 and he was surprised. He told me later he pulled the covers to make sure it was a 261 with a factory cylinder. He also asked me why I didn't buy the saw from him .... Whoops 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DexterDay (Jun 26, 2014)

Nice work to both Chad and Randy!! That is a very, very impressive gain on the stock saw! I have a few done by Randy. All are nothing short of phenomenal. They run with much bigger saws. 

Now I wanna see a Stock 460 Mag vs Ported 460 Mag! 

I have one I will send in for testing. It's a mean Mo-Fo!

(Or 362C-M and/or 441C-M )


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## Dieselshawn (Jun 27, 2014)

Is the 261 using a dual port style muffler?


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## chadihman (Jun 27, 2014)

Dieselshawn said:


> Is the 261 using a dual port style muffler?


Randy's 261 has a dual port made by him I think


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## CR888 (Jun 27, 2014)

Brad Snelling did a pre Mtronic MS261 for me and it happily sits around 11500rpm in the cut in some pretty nasty wood. l also had the exact same saw stock and it would hold around 9500 in the cut. l have a small tach mounted on my ported 261. Funny thing is out ouf the cut they were both tuned in the 13000's but in the cut well loaded the ported saw held alot more rpm. l like a well ported saw.


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## Dieselshawn (Jun 27, 2014)

Chad: yes, dual port made by randy, they work well even on small saws.


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## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

This is our current muffler mod for the MS261. 

Rivet nuts are installed in the can.......no sheet metal screws.....

We are now using a smaller button head fastener though.


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## SquareFile (Jun 27, 2014)

Where do you get the less restrictive screen?


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## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005H3C9DG/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## redfin (Jun 27, 2014)

Hopefully my imitation is flattering Randy. Those little rivet nuts are great to work with. I just beat out a deflector with the anvil.


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## chadihman (Jun 27, 2014)

I had to remove the 7 pin .325 sprocket and install a 7 pin .375 sprocket to run on the dyno. Wouldn't this ported 261 cm run a 3/8 square ground chain on a 20" bar better than a .325?


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## Hedgerow (Jun 27, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I had to remove the 7 pin .325 sprocket and install a 7 pin .375 sprocket to run on the dyno. Wouldn't this ported 261 cm run a 3/8 square ground chain on a 20" bar better than a .325?


If it has a good oiler, absolutely..


----------



## Hedgerow (Jun 27, 2014)

IMHO, anything that is 4hp or better should be running 3/8 anyway...
Round or square.


----------



## chadihman (Jun 27, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> IMHO, anything that is 4hp or better should be running 3/8 anyway...
> Round or square.


I was thinking the same thing


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

Jon grinds a nice .325 in square that I really like. It's very smooth in the cut.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jun 27, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I was thinking the same thing


Heck, I run a 20" bar with 3/8" on my stock 5100...
It ain't even 4hp...
But I have a file and a fair to midlin' brain...

Ok...
Maybe barely adequate...


----------



## Hedgerow (Jun 27, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Jon grinds a nice .325 in square that I really like. It's very smooth in the cut.


It is...
I'll attest to that... 
We used that loop up you sent with the Deere...
I just kept touching it up square it cut so nice...


----------



## Derrick Johnson (Jun 27, 2014)

This is way too cool I want a saw Dyno


----------



## Hedgerow (Jun 27, 2014)

Derrick Johnson said:


> This is way too cool I want a saw Dyno


Send Chad the alky saw...
Just tell him to hurry when he's getting readings.!!!


----------



## chadihman (Jun 27, 2014)

I want to test a ported 461 from Mastermind. Anybody want to send me one before I send my 461 for porting?


----------



## showrguy (Jun 27, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I want to test a ported 461 from Mastermind. Anybody want to send me one before I send my 461 for porting?


 i got a 441 mtronic that randy did.........it's angry..
i'm not to far from you.


----------



## brian22 (Jun 27, 2014)

Wow , it's nice to see results on paper . Hats off to Randy and Chad.


----------



## Mike from Maine (Jun 27, 2014)

Any chance of a run with the dual port muffler on the otherwise stock 261?


----------



## glock37 (Jun 27, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Jon grinds a nice .325 in square that I really like. It's very smooth in the cut.


I can attest too jons 325 sq ground they out cut reg ground by far and sharp as hell I got a cut that bleed like a stuck pig for 1/2 hr


----------



## glock37 (Jun 27, 2014)

I d love to see chadiman run a stock 064 to my Masterminded 064 and see the difference ?

wink wink


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

I have a feeling Chad is gonna get sick of that dyno.


----------



## glock37 (Jun 27, 2014)

Randy wait tell you get one !


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

I think Chad and I have reached a deal on this one........

About the time my new shop is done.......maybe.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jun 27, 2014)

If randy has his own dyno, he would rule the build off competitions.


----------



## glock37 (Jun 27, 2014)

Dieselshawn said:


> If randy has his own dyno, he would rule the build off competitions.



we all  hed be god

stihl would hire him then !

then where would we go


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jun 27, 2014)

I was going to say Chad you might as well spend your time building Dynos. There is no way you are going to be able to test everything that is being proposed from just this one thread. I think the whole concept is just fantastic, but there are so many scenarios that you will be run ragged. (and your wife will take the kids and leave) ; )


----------



## bryanr2 (Jun 27, 2014)

Dieselshawn said:


> If randy has his own dyno, *he would rule the build off competitions.*




Doesnt he already?  He's done 23 for me now and I have NO reason to look anywhere else.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 27, 2014)

I have always run a square ground .325 on all of my 50cc saws.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jun 27, 2014)

Im running .325 on my 261cm as that is what it came with but was going to swap it over to 3/8 for simplicity among the saws. Now that it's ported I think it will handle it well. Of course Maximum bar length on a 50cc saw is going to be 18''. I usually run 16 but I have a 16 on the 241cm.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jun 27, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Im running .325 on my 261cm as that is what it came with but was going to swap it over to 3/8 for simplicity among the saws. Now that it's ported I think it will handle it well. Of course Maximum bar length on a 50cc saw is going to be 18''. I usually run 16 but I have a 16 on the 241cm.
> 
> 
> > I don't have big wood. Did I just say that ???
> > Seriously, I don't like a nose heavy saw, so I have my ported 261 set up with 3/8 X 18 ES bar. Balances just right. Now, if I Had big wood.... Well, that's a different story.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

Steven, all of your saws are done........I do need to put some fuel thru them now before I call em good though.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jun 27, 2014)

Road trip!


----------



## bryanr2 (Jun 27, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> Road trip!




Yeah baby Yeah!


----------



## bryanr2 (Jun 27, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Steven, all of your saws are done........I do need to put some fuel thru them now before I call em good though.




My heart cath got postponed til this coming Wed so I will come up following that. I did receive my new 262xp from Clint Cgrahm1 and "my oh my" pictures dont do this saw justice. The absolute "crown jewel" of my collection now. I cannot believe the condition this saw is in- Hell the 241cm, 261cm, 2153, 2171, 2188, 395 and 3120 are all brand new and they dont look as "Minty" as this saw. (I havent even bought a bar or fueled the 3120xp)


----------



## bryanr2 (Jun 27, 2014)

Here's how I roll Duane: Some of these combos aint perfect as that is what came with the saw and I havent taken the time to change them. But I believe once "ported" that the perfect ratio is 3cc to 1'' of bar. They can all do more than that but I dont have a shortage of choices. 
241cm- 16'' 
2153- 16" 3/8 (and this particular saw is the king of the 50cc saw shootout)
261cm- 18'' .325
254xp- 18''
262xp- 18-20''
272xp- 18''
2171- 20''
064- 24"
288xp- 24''
2188- 24''
395xp- 20'' 28' 32'' (currently sporting a 20'' Sugi
3120xp- probably go for a 42 Cannon (this saw will be strictly for milling)


----------



## MasterMech (Jun 29, 2014)

Am I the only fool running 3/8" Picco Super (63PS) on my MS261C-M?


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 29, 2014)

Yes.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 29, 2014)




----------



## MasterMech (Jun 29, 2014)

It's ..... Zippy.  I need to redo my comparison vid with it ported to see if the Picco is still the fastest option.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 29, 2014)

I like 3/8 Full Comp on em ported. Jon makes a real nice .325 that has me happy though.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

Who has one a MS461 they need ported in Mid July? 

Chad wants to test one against his stock one. 

Contact me for a deal you won't wanna pass up.


----------



## chadihman (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Who has one a MS461 they need ported in Mid July?
> 
> Chad wants to test one against his stock one.
> 
> Contact me for a deal you won't wanna pass up.


Maybe someone will come forward now that the big kahuna has spoken.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

It's a done deal. 

I'll be porting one when I get back from the Sundance for you to test.


----------



## showrguy (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Who has one a MS461 they need ported in Mid July?
> 
> Chad wants to test one against his stock one.
> 
> Contact me for a deal you won't wanna pass up.


you tryin to poke me into buying one ??

edit: i see someone else stepped up to the plate...


----------



## chadihman (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's a done deal.
> 
> I'll be porting one when I get back from the Sundance for you to test.


Sweet


----------



## Derrick Johnson (Jun 30, 2014)

Might have to do that. Just have to get readings in 10 seconds or less.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's a done deal.
> 
> I'll be porting one when I get back from the Sundance for you to test.


dam, that didn't take long...........im always to late


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

Keith (KG441c) jumped on that deal.


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Keith (KG441c) jumped on that deal.


Heck ya!!! My lucky day!!


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

Ill add another saw to the collection from Mastermind!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

Chad , I sure do appreciate all the time and efforts you are contributing also!!


----------



## whitedogone (Jun 30, 2014)




----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

whitedogone said:


>


lol!!""


----------



## Ron660 (Jun 30, 2014)

whitedogone said:


>


 
Someone must have increased that Monkey's compression!


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Someone must have increased that Monkey's compression!


Now thats funny!!! That must be a spicy compression job on him!! lol


----------



## MustangMike (Jun 30, 2014)

Keith, you stepped in it twice! You lucky Dog, how is that 362 running?


----------



## DexterDay (Jun 30, 2014)

I was gonna buy a 261C-M, but after I read a couple posts, was gonna buy a 461, just to "Jump" in line... Now I am back to a 261C-M. . . .  

Always a day late and a dollar short  

Good on you Keith!


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, you stepped in it twice! You lucky Dog, how is that 362 running?


362c has loads of torque and seems to be loosening up on the big end and screaming


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

461r is boxed up and ready to ship to Jamestown Tn. Man that made my day!! Ready to see it ported and graphed beside Chads 461!!!


----------



## MustangMike (Jun 30, 2014)

Just what I wanted to hear! But why couldn't Chad want to test a 362? I have to wait till August!


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Just what I wanted to hear! But why couldn't Chad want to test a 362? I have to wait till August!


Good things come to thoso who are patient!!! lol! I know that didnt help! Custom work is usually a long wait. Im into custom 1911 pistols and have waited as long as 1 yr for mine. Randall knives are usually a 5 yr wait but I got lucky and ordered one recently and got it in 3 months


----------



## fastLeo151 (Jun 30, 2014)

I have a mastermind 461 if ya don't want to wait.


----------



## MustangMike (Jun 30, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Good things come to thoso who are patient!!! lol! I know that didnt help! Custom work is usually a long wait. Im into custom 1911 pistols and have waited as long as 1 yr for mine. Randall knives are usually a 5 yr wait but I got lucky and ordered one recently and got it in 3 months



My Uncle used to collect Randall and Ruana knives, and Samurai Swords in additions to Winchester Rifles.

My handguns are just "users" but I also have some oddball/collectible knives and guns, including a Colt Folding Pocket Knive (made for a very limited amount of time, the handle splits to open the blade). Also have a Frank Wesson Bicycle Pistol (has a detachable stock, but the #s don't match), a Remington Rolling Block 22, and a very nice Winchester Mdl 71 deluxe.

Among the many guns my Uncle used to have were a Mdl 95 in 405 and a Mdl 86 in 50-110. My Aunt used to have a Mdl 95 in 30-06 that was done over by Griffin and Howe, wish I could have afforded to buy that when she sold it, it was beautiful!


----------



## MustangMike (Jun 30, 2014)

Don't ruin the deal Leo!!!!


----------



## fastLeo151 (Jun 30, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Don't ruin the deal Leo!!!!


I am not ruining any deal. Randy may not even build 461s the same as mine anymore


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> My Uncle used to collect Randall and Ruana knives, and Samurai Swords in additions to Winchester Rifles.
> 
> My handguns are just "users" but I also have some oddball/collectible knives and guns, including a Colt Folding Pocket Knive (made for a very limited amount of time, the handle splits to open the blade). Also have a Frank Wesson Bicycle Pistol (has a detachable stock, but the #s don't match),a Remington Rolling Block 22, and a very nice Winchester Mdl 71 deluxe.
> 
> Among the many guns my Uncle used to have were a Mdl 95 in 405 and a Mdl 86 in 50-110. My Aunt used to have a Mdl 95 in 30-06 that was done over by Griffin and Howe, wish I could have afforded to buy that when she sold it, it was beautiful!


I bet! My buddy Ron660 loves custom guns and has lots of them and several Randall knives


----------



## KG441c (Jun 30, 2014)

fastLeo151 said:


> I am not ruining any deal. Randy may not even build 461s the same as mine anymore


Wow! What a kick in the ole crotch! lol!


----------



## nmurph (Jun 30, 2014)

I have a 460 that needs to be in on this 461 before/after test.


----------



## chadihman (Jun 30, 2014)

nmurph said:


> I have a 460 that needs to be in on this 461 before/after test.


ship it already


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

I'd bet that 460 ain't as stout as the one I just did for Dex......

Completely different recipe.


----------



## nmurph (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd bet that 460 ain't as stout as the one I just did for Dex......
> 
> Completely different recipe.



What carb?


----------



## DexterDay (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd bet that 460 ain't as stout as the one I just did for Dex......
> 
> Completely different recipe.



Say the word and I will put my 460 against a 461?  On my dime. There and back.  

This thing is ridiculous.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

Walbro......

But I do them totally different now Neal. 

Cut squish rather than a popup......and completely different timing numbers.


----------



## DexterDay (Jun 30, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd bet that 460 ain't as stout as the one I just did for Dex......
> 
> Completely different recipe.





nmurph said:


> What carb?






DexterDay said:


> Say the word and I will put my 460 against a 461?  On my dime. There and back.
> 
> This thing is ridiculous.



Or against Neals. I would like to see the difference between a super strong 460 and a super strong 460.  

Chad, my man. You really need to charge for time on that Dino bro. Honestly. You can make some coin.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

It would be cool to see the difference between 4 years ago and now. 

Probably not as much as I might think.


----------



## nmurph (Jun 30, 2014)

Mine will be on the way in the next couple of days.


I didn't know mine had a P/U. I thought it was cut SB.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 30, 2014)

The one you have is the very first 460 I ported.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jul 1, 2014)

Where's that mysterious 661 that mastermind did during the winter? 

That thing should be able to smoke the pump on the dyno.


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

Well my 461r is in route to TN to get more bananas installed!! Someone tell Mastermind If my saw dont have an extra banana installed so it will make more bananas than Chads, that the little antenna on the monkeys neck in this picture is a shock collar and I have it set to level 4!!!! LMBO!!!!


----------



## fastLeo151 (Jul 1, 2014)

So my 461 is not needed???


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

fastLeo151 said:


> So my 461 is not needed???


They may wanna test both? Maybe a different port job?


----------



## chadihman (Jul 1, 2014)

fastLeo151 said:


> So my 461 is not needed???





KG441c said:


> They may wanna test both? Maybe a different port job?


I'll let that up to Randy. Winter time would have been a better time for testing but some things can't wait.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Jul 1, 2014)

Its no matter to me. My 461 was built last summer so it may be not the current build for randy anyways. I'm just trying to contribute a Lil. I also have a mastermind 460 too.


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 1, 2014)

You lucky Dog, so which one is stronger? Seems a little redundant, isn't it? Must be tough to choose which one to pull the trigger on.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Jul 1, 2014)

There both great saws! The 460 gets the most use because I don't want to scratch muh 461


----------



## HuskStihl (Jul 1, 2014)

I'd like you to put my Masterminded 394 (new recipe) on the dyno against my Husqvarna riding mower. I'm betting they both make about 22bhp


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jul 1, 2014)

I think I see the dyno going up in flames if a masterminded 394 goes on!


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Keith (KG441c) jumped on that deal.




of course he did..... if you already have one Mastermind saw.... there is no reason to think about if you need another.


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> of course he did..... if you already have one Mastermind saw.... there is no reason to think about if you need another.


no doubt


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

Y'all make me blush.


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

fastLeo151 said:


> I have a mastermind 461 if ya don't want to wait.



Thanks for the offer Andrew.......it means a lot knowing how busy you are with work. 

A deal has been made with Keith.......and a deal, is a deal.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jul 1, 2014)

If it wasn't for the astronomically high shipping and customs fees, I'd help out with my dyno as well.


----------



## showrguy (Jul 1, 2014)

Dieselshawn said:


> If it wasn't for the astronomically high shipping and customs fees, I'd help out with my dyno as well.


 uh-oh, i can see it coming.................
were going from builder wars, to chainsaw dyno wars !!!!!!!!!!!!! lol


----------



## Jon1212 (Jul 1, 2014)

showrguy said:


> uh-oh, i can see it coming.................
> were going from builder wars, to chainsaw dyno wars !!!!!!!!!!!!! lol



Piss Revving video wars should be included.


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 1, 2014)

As soon as Randy posted he was looking for a 461, I knew Keith would jump on it. After all, he just had Randy do his 362 then purchased a 461, the deal was "made for him".

I'm happy for him, and I'm sure he will enjoy both of those saws (what a 2 saw combo)!


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

I was having a conversation with Keith.......and noticed that he had the 461.

Then I asked him if he wanted to supply it for these tests. 

He didn't think about it very long.


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 1, 2014)

What was there to think about?


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I was having a conversation with Keith.......and noticed that he had the 461.
> 
> Then I asked him if he wanted to supply it for these tests.
> 
> He didn't think about it very long.


Well? ?? That was a NO BRAINER??!!! LOL


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jul 1, 2014)

of all my hopped up saws ,the most gains in a ported saw i have noticed were going from an ms440 to a hybrid ,if it gained 2 hp i would not be surprised


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> of all my hopped up saws ,the most gains in a ported saw i have noticed were going from an ms440 to a hybrid ,if it gained 2 hp i would not be surprised


wow!!!!


----------



## Mike from Maine (Jul 1, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> of all my hopped up saws ,the most gains in a ported saw i have noticed were going from an ms440 to a hybrid ,if it gained 2 hp i would not be surprised


Imagine if you had an oem top end.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> What was there to think about?




just "where to find a box to ship it in?" duh!


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> just "where to find a box to ship it in?" duh!


Aint that the truth. Thats more of a chore than it seems. Got the 461 boxed and sent ups and should be in TN by Friday


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> just "where to find a box to ship it in?" duh!



That would have been the only thought.  I am short on boxes, so I had to buy a few today. 

Do you still want my 460? Maybe others would like to see the difference between a strato and non strato of the same breed/size.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

Having Randy so close (only 90 miles away) has really catapulted my CAD and the rate I port saws at to the next level. If I had to ship em all back and forth (while cheaper than running a diesel up there and back) would get old in a hurry. Try to keep my shipping to buying and selling. If I had had "23 ported saw" deliveries these last 2 years..... Id be in serious trouble.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> That would have been the only thought.  I am short on boxes, so I had to buy a few today.
> 
> *Do you still want my 460?* Maybe others would like to see the difference between a strato and non strato of the same breed/size.



Since you quoted me..... is the 460 a gift or am I buying?opcorn:  (just funnin)


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

Yo......Steven. 

You have three saws done here. 

I'm going to Sundance Friday......returning on the 13th.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

SO you got enough run time to call em good? Great to hear.

See.... here's my sh!tuation...... I dont know if I can drive after my heart cath tomorrow, I know I damn sure am not going to be pumping a clutch for a week. (Doc said I cant pick up a gallon of milk). So my only way up there is for Kari to bring me in her suv.... which eliminates me from bringing the 241cm, 262xp, and the 3120xp (one- I cant carry them and two-she can add $) . SOooooooo..... ifn they can stay til you get back and I get better, I think that is the better option for me.opcorn:


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Yo......Steven.
> 
> You have three saws done here.
> 
> I'm going to Sundance Friday......returning on the 13th.



Lucky.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

I'll keep em safe *my dear friend*. 

You take care of yourself, and your family. 

While we are at Sundance prayers will be sent up for you all.


----------



## KG441c (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> That would have been the only thought.  I am short on boxes, so I had to buy a few today.
> 
> Do you still want my 460? Maybe others would like to see the difference between a strato and non strato of the same breed/size.


Where do u get ur boxes?


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> Lucky.....



6 months Ive waited for them suckers and their ready the week I cant go get them (insert head bang here).....


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

I've just reexamined and revamped my MS361 recipe.........wow. 

Holding well over 10,000 in the cut.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'll keep em safe *my dear friend*.
> 
> You take care of yourself, and your family.
> 
> While we are at Sundance prayers will be sent up for you all.




Thanks bro, have a safe trip..... we have saws to port when you get back.


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> That would have been the only thought.  I am short on boxes, so I had to buy a few today.
> 
> Do you still want my 460? Maybe others would like to see the difference between a strato and non strato of the same breed/size.


You know the 461 ain't a Strato saw no? At least not like the 261/362/441.

I want to see a 460DP vs a stock 461. My hands/ears told me they are close....


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Where do u get ur boxes?



Either the P.O. or WalMart. 

Walmart has cheap "Heavy Duty/Duck" brand boxes. They are double corrugated. They look thinner than a standard box, but are twice as stiff.

The P.O. has thinner boxes, but they work. Or you can go to your local drug store or Dollar store and they will give you almost any box you ask for.

You can see the 2 layers in this pic. Most times I just use what I have (whatever saws come in), but if I am out. These 2 options are where I go.


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

MasterMech said:


> You know the 461 ain't a Strato saw no? At least not like the 261/362/441.
> 
> I want to see a 460DP vs a stock 461. My hands/ears told me they are close....



It's not an Mtronic, but it's still Strato..


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

MasterMech said:


> I want to see a 460DP vs a stock 461. My hands/ears told me they are close....



I want to see a ported 460 against a ported 461  My 460 is mean


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> It's not an Mtronic, but it's still Strato? No?


Nope. Check the piston design and the intake ports. Where are those fresh air ports anyways?


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> I want to see a ported 460 against a ported 461  My 460 is mean


Yes it is!


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> It's not an Mtronic, but it's still Strato...





MasterMech said:


> Nope. Check the piston design and the intake ports. Where are those fresh air ports anyways?




Then someone needs to please tell me what the difference is in the 460 and 461?

I thought it was Strato?? What's the difference in the two?


----------



## bryanr2 (Jul 1, 2014)

dont know about the 460 but the 461 is quad port


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 1, 2014)

The 461 recycles some of the exhaust down the transfers.........

But it's not what I would call stratified. 

A quad ported 460 is what I see.


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 1, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> Then someone needs to please tell me what the difference is in the 460 and 461?
> 
> I thought it was Strato?? What's the difference in the two?


Top end is totally different design. Quad transfers and long entrances that start near the front of the jug outside of the actual cylinder instead of the two shorties on either side like a 460 has. And a weird little aluminum hard-on in the crankcase that should kick extra lube to the wrist pin. Some minor differences in the carb jetting too but if you were locked in a room feeling around in the dark you would call it a 460.


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 1, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> dont know about the 460 but the 461 is quad port



Then I have to see a comparison. .

Chad.. PM your addy and tell me when and where. I wanna see the difference in gains.

It's probably world's apart, but.....
I love the 036 (dual port) and I hated the 361 (quad port). Hated it.. Had 2 and disliked them both. Both very Minty..


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 1, 2014)

MasterMech said:


> You know the 461 ain't a Strato saw no? At least not like the 261/362/441.
> 
> I want to see a 460DP vs a stock 461. My hands/ears told me they are close....



I plan to have both a dual port 044 and dual port 046 at GTG, both with HD-2 filters, and I have advanced the timing on the 046. (the carb rebuild kit for the 046 should arrive tomorrow).


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 2, 2014)

I'm reading too fast, you guys are talking the transfers and I'm talking the muffler. But I guess for both those saws, both apply!


----------



## VinceGU05 (Jul 2, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> I want to see a ported 460 against a ported 461  My 460 is mean


if i was 10000 miles closer i would gladly offer for the dyno the 461.


----------



## wyk (Jul 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The 461 recycles some of the exhaust down the transfers.........
> 
> But it's not what I would call stratified.
> 
> A quad ported 460 is what I see.



That's exactly what I was thinking when I watched your build thread. I was very impressed that Stihl went that way with it. I almost got one of them when I saw the better AV. Then I saw the price... ;(


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 2, 2014)

reindeer said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking when I watched your build thread. I was very impressed that Stihl went that way with it. I almost got one of them when I saw the better AV. Then I saw the price... ;(



How did they improve AV? I thought the 461 still had the old system?


----------



## chadihman (Jul 2, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> I want to see a ported 460 against a ported 461  My 460 is mean


I can test. I'd like to have all saws at the same time after that 461 gets ported.

I truly do hate to ask for help but I dumped over $1000 in my dyno and spent a lot of hours building it. Would you guys be willing to pay for a dyno test? What's fair?


----------



## dl5205 (Jul 2, 2014)

Wasn't there quite a discussion recently on the claimed "delayed Stratification" (or somesuch) of the 461 or similar? Where WAS that argument?


----------



## dl5205 (Jul 2, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I can test. I'd like to have all saws at the same time after that 461 gets ported.
> 
> I truly do hate to ask for help but I dumped over $1000 in my dyno and spent a lot of hours building it. Would you guys be willing to pay for a dyno test? What's fair?




I'm thinking if I were to offer dyno pulls to the public it would be At Least in the $75 - $150 range. But hey, I'm a Capitalist.


----------



## spencerpaving (Jul 2, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I can test. I'd like to have all saws at the same time after that 461 gets ported.
> 
> I truly do hate to ask for help but I dumped over $1000 in my dyno and spent a lot of hours building it. Would you guys be willing to pay for a dyno test? What's fair?


fully instumated snow and bike dynos get 150.00 a hr.. But they also cost thousands of dollars...depends on how much of your time is in it to test a saw....from hookup until you take it off how long does it take? And what do you think your time is worth?


----------



## chadihman (Jul 2, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> I'm thinking if I were to offer dyno pulls to the public it would be in the $75 - $150 range. But hey, I'm a Capitalist.


To high for me maybe $25-$50 and I'm not expecting anything from the saws that are being sent to me that was just discussed.


----------



## dl5205 (Jul 2, 2014)

chadihman said:


> To high for me maybe $25-$50 and I'm not expecting anything from the saws that are being sent to me that was just discussed.



What is your time/ expertise/ Investment worth? How much actual time does it eat up to set up and make a pull?


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 2, 2014)

50.00 for a graphed result is a deal.


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 2, 2014)

Chad, I was going to ask how long it takes you to test/graph. But as Randy says, if you charge $50 per test and provide a graph, they will line up around the block waiting.


----------



## Hinerman (Jul 2, 2014)

MasterMech said:


> Top end is totally different design. Quad transfers and long entrances that start near the front of the jug outside of the actual cylinder instead of the two shorties on either side like a 460 has. *And a weird little aluminum hard-on* in the crankcase that should kick *extra lube* to the wrist pin. Some minor differences in the carb jetting too but if you were locked in a room feeling around in the dark you would call it a 460.


 
Be careful what you say around these chainsaw pervs...they will be asking for pics and stuff.


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 2, 2014)

Pics?


----------



## Ron660 (Jul 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 50.00 for a graphed result is a deal.


 I agree


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jul 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 500.00 for a graphed result is a deal.




Fixed


----------



## KG441c (Jul 2, 2014)

Chad I'll be glad to send u money when mine is on the dyno.I'll be the first to step up and pay. Send me ur address and its on its way


----------



## Ron660 (Jul 2, 2014)

Hey Keith, wait for the results from your ported 461 and my ported 660. Winner takes all, loser pays for the dyno testing! LOL


----------



## fastLeo151 (Jul 2, 2014)

What's going to happen when two different builders build the same saw and compare???? Someone's feelings will get hurt...


----------



## chadihman (Jul 2, 2014)

fastLeo151 said:


> What's going to happen when two different builders build the same saw and compare???? Someone's feelings will get hurt...


Oh no. Man up


----------



## Ron660 (Jul 2, 2014)

fastLeo151 said:


> What's going to happen when two different builders build the same saw and compare???? Someone's feelings will get hurt...


I'm sure AS Members that have ported saws know these builders produce quality work. Competition usually results in better products, better performance, in the long run. Consumer report has been doing it for years.


----------



## KG441c (Jul 2, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Hey Keith, wait for the results from your ported 461 and my ported 660. Winner takes all, loser pays for the dyno testing! LOL



Buddy I hate for u to lose to that ported 461!! lol!


----------



## DexterDay (Jul 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 50.00 for a graphed result is a deal.



I will gladly send my saw and pay $50 for a graph


----------



## KG441c (Jul 2, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Hey Keith, wait for the results from your ported 461 and my ported 660. Winner takes all, loser pays for the dyno testing! LOL


Deal! If the ported 461 makes as much hp at 10000rpm I get ur 660?? lol?? Im just kiddin I aint makin that deal!!


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jul 2, 2014)

My big Dodge Cummins has been on 8 different dynos. Prices ranged from $50-$110 depending on type of dyno. 

My truck spends about 20 mins on the machine. 

I agree with randy, $50 sounds pretty good for some pulls and a colorful graph to brag to your buddies.

A dyno day would be cheaper as lots of people are there with their saws to win bragging rights in person.


----------



## Ron660 (Jul 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Buddy I hate for u to lose to that ported 461!! lol!


Can I still borrow it? LOL


----------



## KG441c (Jul 2, 2014)

Ill donate it back to u!!!! lol


----------



## Ron660 (Jul 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ill donate it back to u!!!! lol


Next Christmas, I'll just ask Santa to pick me one up in Tennessee on his way to Louisiana.


----------



## spencerpaving (Jul 2, 2014)

A dyno day sounds like a lot of fun!..if you decide on one...I would be up for a road trip I think you are only about 3 hrs from me


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jul 2, 2014)

Dyno days are always fun. 

Everyone wanted to see what their mods have done to their trucks. 

BBQ'd chicken for lunch. 

Never boring.


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 19, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I'm beat but got the testing done tonight. My rpm sensor wouldn't read past 11500 rpms. I'd still like to test up to 13000 if I can get a shaft rpm sensor that will read that high.
> Wow Randy this is a hot 261cm.




I like this graph.


----------



## KG441c (Jul 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I like this graph.


Heck who wouldn't??? Lol!! That's all the proof anyone would need


----------



## bag-o-donuts (Jul 19, 2014)

I get that numbers are only part of the story, but this seems valuable to me. Especially if one did a comparison type dyno run-off... also, it's nice that the stock reading jives with Stihl's claimed number.


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 20, 2014)

As I have stated previously, the gains are nice, but it is the plateau of power from 10,000 to 11,500 that really impresses me.

Looking forward to that in the next larger size!


----------



## KG441c (Jul 20, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> As I have stated previously, the gains are nice, but it is the plateau of power from 10,000 to 11,500 that really impresses me.
> 
> Looking forward to that in the next larger size!


ya me too! ready to see what that 461 dynos!! lol


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 20, 2014)

Yea, me too, when will that be coming, do you know?


----------



## KG441c (Jul 20, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Yea, me too, when will that be coming, do you know?


Havent heard and dont wanna bother to ask as I know Monkey is busy enough.


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 20, 2014)

I hear ya, but I keep searching for a thread that is not there yet!


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 20, 2014)

Chad is pretty busy too. 

But I'll be getting to the 461 soon. I do apologize for any delays. 

I hate making excuses....but need to share what has gone on here. 

Before I left to go to Maryland, someone chased the cows across the road with a truck while they were drinking. One of the cows tore through the fence, and has been out ever since. The owner of the cow is 97 years old, and cannot chase her. He made a deal with us on the land and the cow. He just wants to wash his hands of the whole mess.

She completely destroyed my neighbor's garden. Now she only comes out of the woods at night. Jon and I have been working on a small fenced area to contain her. We managed to lure her in there once, but when she realized her was trapped, she tore through the fence again.

Needless to say, this has taken us away from saws.....


----------



## KG441c (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Chad is pretty busy too.
> 
> But I'll be getting to the 461 soon. I do apologize for any delays.
> 
> ...


No explanation owed!! How is the workshop coming Randy?


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 20, 2014)

Haven't had time to work on it either.


----------



## KG441c (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Haven't had time to work on it either.


I know what u mean! I stay on a d9 dozer about 12hrs a day and then come home and juggle home
duties,family, and workin on a few saws! Caught up right now on saws the rest of my time in the shop will be playtime until next project


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 20, 2014)

I've spent a little time on a D5. 

Not the "fun" job some folks think it is huh?


----------



## KG441c (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've spent a little time on a D5.
> 
> Not the "fun" job some folks think it is huh?[/QUOTE
> Our d9 is top of the line. A/C, Pioneer stereo, gps, the whole nine yards. I move wood chips and build and tear down piles which seems redundant but no 2 pushes are the same and can get hairy 5 stories in the air on a bluff edge!! Its a peaceful, quite, mind clearing job that I enjoy. Listen to Rush and Shawn and other right wings slam Obama on the stereo all day and ponder chainsaws in my mind!!! lol


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've spent a little time on a D5.
> 
> Not the "fun" job some folks think it is huh?


First ten minutes has to be "Priceless"! 
That is some good news about the real estate and sure nice of ya'll to help out an aging neighbor. See, yer still young


----------



## old-cat (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Chad is pretty busy too.
> 
> But I'll be getting to the 461 soon. I do apologize for any delays.
> 
> ...



Ah the JOYS of country life!! I HATE cows. They treat fences like I treat weeds. What a pain!


----------



## longbowch (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Chad is pretty busy too.
> 
> But I'll be getting to the 461 soon. I do apologize for any delays.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you need a good horse and a long rope!


----------



## MasterMech (Jul 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Chad is pretty busy too.
> 
> But I'll be getting to the 461 soon. I do apologize for any delays.
> 
> ...


Build fence like you build saws and that cow ain't goin' anywhere.....


----------



## Dieselshawn (Jul 20, 2014)

I've got my BBQ, BBQ sauce, seasoning, plates, forks, and knives ready.....

I'll let the monkey with the gun do what he does best and the cows will be on my plate....


----------



## MustangMike (Jul 20, 2014)

Good luck with that cow Randy, that is good of you. I remember when I was a kid (my Uncle had cows) and the neighbor had passed away. Well, back then you always also had a Bull, but you did not keep them for too long. Well the neighbor's bull came through a hole in the fence and went for my Dad. My Dad was afraid to jump up on the tractor because he was afraid the bull would chase us (me, my brother and my cousin were all young then).

Luckily our dog, a huge Shepard mix (was 150 lbs at 9 mos) ran across and clipped the bull on the nose. The bull chased the dog till he collapsed. Then my uncle and my Dad picked up some logs and forced the bull back though the hole in the fence and fixed the fence. I think that was my Dad's favorite story to tell people.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Got the cow caught and got a couple of heifer calves in the field now.........thank goodness. 
Did I mention that I really like this graph??????


----------



## KG441c (Aug 1, 2014)

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


Mastermind said:


> Got the cow caught and got a couple of heifer calves in the field now.........thank goodness.
> Did I mention that I really like this graph??????


Im eager to see that 461 graph!! Lol!


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 1, 2014)

Randall the Graphic Artist. 

Just got back from torturing my buddy's 026. Pretty spunky for an antique...

Not like my Mastermind 261 for sure. I had a good sharp chain with the rakers set the way my 028 likes and I had some fun wringing it out.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Soon Keith.......prolly Monday.


----------



## redfin (Aug 1, 2014)

You buy this dyno yet? We need more models tested please.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Got the cow caught




UMmmmm, brisket!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

I believe Chad and I have reached an agreement on the dyno.......

If all goes as planned, I'll build a dyno room just for testing.


----------



## redfin (Aug 1, 2014)

mastermind said:


> I believe Chad and I have reached an agreement on the dyno.......
> 
> If all goes as planned, I'll build a dyno room just for testing.



So you tryin to be all professional and stuff? You know breakout of the garage p-revving riff-raff crowd?


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 1, 2014)

We need a back flip yah whoooo button for that post...


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Naw........I like being a member of the good old boys/riff raff club. It's an elite group of real people. 

I just wanna be able to really test some theories.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 1, 2014)

Stop dissing me! I was pi$$ revving all morning!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I believe Chad and I have reached an agreement on the dyno.......
> 
> If all goes as planned, I'll build a dyno room just for testing.


Now thats cool!! Couldnt ask for a better setup??


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Did you scream out "WOOT WOOT" as you were pinning the throttle??????


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Did you scream out "WOOT WOOT" as you were pinning the throttle??????


Ohh yea! 
Hey, question about the Dyno: how do you get rid of the heat?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

I'd use a bad ass fan.....


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 1, 2014)

Now Randy, I want to see another chart that looks almost just like that, but with higher #s from my 362!

As I have stated before, I am impressed with that plateau from 10-11,500. It is just where you want the saw to stay in the cut.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

We need to get one of these new MS362Cs on that dyno. If what Dex says means anything.....his 362 was a more impressive gain over stock than any saw I've done for him yet..........if what he says can be believed.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 1, 2014)

Feel free to use mine. I now have 3 other saw (Ha Ha Ha Ha).

I would love to see it on the dyno.

That all sounds great to me, you must have them "dialed in".


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

I'm sending Chad a new MS461 in a few days.......


----------



## KG441c (Aug 1, 2014)

I love my Monkied 362c. Im doin all I can to resist selling my completely redone and ported 026 to get a 261 to get a masterminded sticker! Randy I sure like that new Monkey with the gun avatar that was posted the other day?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Did you feel like Dex???? Was there a big gain over stock to you?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

I've not been able to spend a lot of time on the trigger of one like I'd like to.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 1, 2014)

You need to put time for that on your new schedule!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Maybe in December....


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)




----------



## KG441c (Aug 1, 2014)

Totally woke it up. A ton more torque and you can lean on the saw without it tapping out in the cut


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Got the cow caught and got a couple of heifer calves in the field now.........thank goodness.
> Did I mention that I really like this graph??????


 Best advertising I've seen from a ported saw! Proof is in the pudding.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> We need to get one of these new MS362Cs on that dyno. If what Dex says means anything.....his 362 was a more impressive gain over stock than any saw I've done for him yet..........if what he says can be believed.



You have a volunteer!


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Got the cow caught and got a couple of heifer calves in the field now.........thank goodness.
> Did I mention that I really like this graph??????




Are the numbers you use for the 362 similar (or the same) as what you use for the 261 & 441, or does each one like something different?


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> We need to get one of these new MS362Cs on that dyno. If what Dex says means anything.....his 362 was a more impressive gain over stock than any saw I've done for him yet..........if what he says can be believed.



True story.. 

My 460 was pretty mean stock and is a Machine now , but this 362 seems to be pretty bad azz unit!!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Good question Mike......

The exhaust height will always be different on 50, 60, and 70cc saws that I do. 

Transfer height will be in some cases too. That is the number I work the hardest to dial in just so. 

I'd rather not post the numbers I use on these M-Tronic saws though.......


----------



## KG441c (Aug 1, 2014)

Randy do u see the mtronics saws having an advantage or disadvantage as far as being durable compared to a properly maintained and tuned non mtronics saw?


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 1, 2014)

Randy, I don't blame you at all, but it sounds like you have got them really dialed in!

Dex is making me drool to get it back!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Randy do u see the mtronics saws having an advantage or disadvantage as far as being durable compared to a properly maintained and tuned non mtronics saw?



So far..........I think the M-Tronic system is very nearly bulletproof. 

And......they tune for max RPM in the cut. Win Win!!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 1, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> So far..........I think the M-Tronic system is very nearly bulletproof.
> 
> And......they tune for max RPM in the cut. Win Win!!!!!


mtronics compared in durability and peformance compared to the older 026,036,044,etc?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

It's just a carb.....no different really.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 1, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> Ohh yea!
> Hey, question about the Dyno: how do you get rid of the heat?



I use a much larger size oil tank to keep the oil temps down than chad has.

It was by accident actually as the 5 gallon tank was on sale for only $50 cdn with the oil ports and vent cap. Couldn't pass up on the price so my table was designed to hold the larger tank.

I've had 5 large saws, 2 of them masterminded 660's, 1 modded husky 390 and 2 stock 660's do several hard pulling runs each and the oil only got warm to the touch. 

This is over an hour of dyno pulls, swapping saws, tuning. 

The pump has only reached half capacity so far..... Now I need a modded 3120 husky to try.


----------



## redfin (Aug 1, 2014)

What were the numbers on the 660s?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 1, 2014)

Good idea on adding oil capacity. I'd probably build a stand for the dyno......and incorporate a large tank in the stand.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 1, 2014)

Redfin: have not tried to actually create a dyno chart yet. 

I have only the hp at 9,500 rpms which my buddies cut logs at. 7.5 hp. 4 ft/lb. 

We actually only used the dyno a few days ago to verify consistency with another mastemind 660 to make sure the cylinder is still working after melting a piston.

I will try and make a dyno chart soon.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 1, 2014)

Here's the 5 gallon tank. No cooler needed yet. None of the big saws have been able to get the oil hot. Even after draining a full tank of gas or even 2.


----------



## nk14zp (Aug 2, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I'd like you to put my Masterminded 394 (new recipe) on the dyno against my Husqvarna riding mower. I'm betting they both make about 22bhp


Does your wife run them both? Or just start them for you?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 2, 2014)

nk14zp said:


> Does your wife run them both? Or just start them for you?


 The 394's tough, but the mower has a key!


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 2, 2014)

Dieselshawn said:


> Redfin: have not tried to actually create a dyno chart yet.
> 
> I have only the hp at 9,500 rpms which my buddies cut logs at. 7.5 hp. 4 ft/lb.
> 
> ...


Did it lean out or what?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 2, 2014)

It was damaged by a skidder, or a tree.......I can't remember which. Then after repairing it......it fried a piston. 

Again, I can't remember if it was an air leak or what. 

OK.......too many saws.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 2, 2014)

Duane: it did melt on the exhaust side which would indicate lean.

It was damaged by a tree, repaired by a shop and melted next day.

I took the saw, spent the weekend on it, checked everything for leaks, found nothing wrong with the case. Maybe disturbed seals as the crank was moved over too.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 6, 2014)

^^^


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

Couldn't sleep Duane?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

That graph is giving him insomnia!!! Lol!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

This graph compared to this other graph blows my mind. 







Peak power falls off pretty fast in all the other saws.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

YA! ! I think u installed that top quality grove of DOLE bananas in that dang 261!!! Lol


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

Pure luck......


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

Wow!! The 261 at 10000rpm made almost same hp as the ported 361!!! That would break Saw Trolls spirit on the 361??? Lol


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 6, 2014)

Can't wait to have mine stuffed with bananas!![emoji16]


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

I hope he puts his extra spicy angry Monkey suit on when he puts one of his groves of Dole bananas in my 461 that will be dynoed!!! Heck I may tattoo the graph on my arm!!!! LMBO!!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

I'm running behind on the 461........

I have this Alpina on the bench right now.........just staring at it. What a weird port arrangement.


----------



## nmurph (Aug 6, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> ...just staring at it. What a weird port arrangement.



Pics??


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm running behind on the 461........
> 
> I have this Alpina on the bench right now.........just staring at it. What a weird port arrangement.


Hog it out and hope for the best!!! That always works dont it??? Lol


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Pics??



Maybe.....



KG441c said:


> Hog it out and hope for the best!!! That always works dont it??? Lol



Some folks think it does.....


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

I always like the conservative approach? U can go back in but band-aids dont stick to H1R at 32 to1!!! Lmbo


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 6, 2014)

I work some strange hours. Pays for the PSA. Yes, I do lay awake at night and graph things (in my head). Or do I lie awake?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

Me too. There are times when I can't sleep at all. Too much on my mind......


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 6, 2014)

MM, don't you have one of these (261CM) to sell?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

I sold it this morning Duane.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Aug 6, 2014)

I sure like mine even though it's not a CM!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 6, 2014)

Dexter ended up grabbing the one I had for sale.


----------



## User Name Here (Aug 6, 2014)

I'm in for the testing of the 461! I've only got 5 months to wait! Is it really that far away? Geez....


----------



## KG441c (Aug 6, 2014)

Me too! Randy is a busy man!! He will get to it and it will be worth the wait


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 6, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Dexter ended up grabbing the one I had for sale.




Thank you again Randy.. 




Mastermind said:


> Pure luck......



is that what people are calling it now


----------



## rburg (Aug 6, 2014)

I am glad Dexter bought your saw and took the pressure off of me. It sure was tempting.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Aug 6, 2014)

Here's mine. Its a beast but I'm really a 70cc and up kinda guy


----------



## chadihman (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm in awe of how the HP hangs on in the high rpms. Thats 2.362 HP more than the stock 261 at 13k. Has a pretty stable max HP between 10,000-11,500 rpm.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

That really is pretty impressive. Not a huge gain at 9000.......but as RPM increases the spread gets insane. 

I wish I had the knowledge to explain what we are seeing, but I don't. I made a hairy guess......and it paid off. 

The way I stumbled onto what I'm doing to this saw is from studying a lot of different saws, and their factory timing numbers. 

Thinking about the fresh air that is brought into the transfer passages, and what happens to that air when the transfers first begin to open, then looking at a 562s timing numbers, made me think..........I wonder what would happen if I raised the ever loving hell out the transfers in this saw?????

That's the best I can do for an explanation.


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## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

I hope a 461 headed ur way Chad has a hang up about it!!!! Lol


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## chadihman (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> That really is pretty impressive. Not a huge gain at 9000.......but as RPM increases the spread gets insane.
> 
> I wish I had the knowledge to explain what we are seeing, but I don't. I made a hairy guess......and it paid off.
> 
> ...


How about I send you a couple 261 cylinders with my 261 for my 8/28 appointment? You do three different port jobs of your choice then I'll test each one.


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## chadihman (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I hope a 461 headed ur way Chad has a hang up about it!!!! Lol


Its sitting in a box in my garage right now along side with a special 460 in a box. I've been doing some 660 tests lately. I'll fit the 461 in tonight or tomorrow night and get it shipped out asap. the 460 will hopefully get tested on tuesday.


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

chadihman said:


> How about I send you a couple 261 cylinders with my 261 for my 8/28 appointment? You do three different port jobs of your choice then I'll test each one.



I'd do all three exactly the same Chad. I've done over 50 of these 261s......and have tested every combination of numbers you can imagine. This is as good as it gets.


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## Dieselshawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd do all three exactly the same Chad. I've done over 50 of these 261s......and have tested every combination of numbers you can imagine. This is as good as it gets.



This will show consistency between cylinders that you ported.


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

Trooph


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## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

That's a big difference up top. Cutting cants those 261s may nip at the fastest 50cc out there if you build a chain to cut at 11k or so.


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## MustangMike (Aug 17, 2014)

Very impressive!


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## MasterMech (Aug 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> That's a big difference up top. Cutting cants those 261s may nip at the fastest 50cc out there if you build a chain to cut at 11k or so.


I have a damn good chain for my MS261C-M. Thanks Hedge!


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## nmurph (Aug 17, 2014)

chadihman said:


> Its sitting in a box in my garage right now along side with a special 460 in a box. I've been doing some 660 tests lately. I'll fit the 461 in tonight or tomorrow night and get it shipped out asap. the 460 will hopefully get tested on tuesday.



Likey...maybe with the different carbs since they've been talked about recently in terms of power bumps.


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## sunfish (Aug 17, 2014)

chadihman said:


> I'm in awe of how the HP hangs on in the high rpms. Thats 2.362 HP more than the stock 261 at 13k. Has a pretty stable max HP between 10,000-11,500 rpm.


That right there could almost make up for the chunkiness of that saw. I almost want one now!


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## chadihman (Aug 17, 2014)

sunfish said:


> That right there could almost make up the the chunkiness of that saw. I almost want one now!


Yep get one. That'll keep your Jotul full. With the cool summer were having I can't help but believe were going to have another super cold winter maybe colder.


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## sunfish (Aug 17, 2014)

chadihman said:


> Yep get one. That'll keep your Jotul full. With the cool summer were having I can't help but believe were going to have another super cold winter maybe colder.


I have 2-3 years worth cut split and stacked in the dry. Yeah, I think this winter will be a cold one...


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

These graphs have booked my little shop out past the new year.


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## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Damn a 261!!! I hope a 461 is the graph talked about soon!!! Lol!!


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## MasterMech (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> These graphs have booked my little shop out past the new year.


Wait until one gets done up with one of your 441s. Stock to ported is an awesome gain just by feel.


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## Dieselshawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Graph of a 461? Wait til a 661 gets tested.  

Mastermind: got any grand kids that's about grown up, relatives like Jon? You might need them to help work in the shop once the graph of the 461 and 661goes public.........

I see a 20,000 sq/ft building being built in the upcoming future to meet the demands of banana power......


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm as big as I'm getting fellers. 

At one time I had 14 guys working for me framing........never again do I want those headaches.


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## DexterDay (Aug 17, 2014)

MasterMech said:


> Wait until one gets done up with one of your 441s. Stock to ported is an awesome gain just by feel.



I want see a stock to ported graph for every saw now  Especially the C-M line up 

And for the record, the only two 50 cc saws that have impressed me, is your 261C-M, and Teds 550xp. That 261C-M with Hedgerow's chain he filed for you, was an amazing combo. Because of your 261 and that graph are the ONLY reasons I will be keeping this one. I have bought, traded, and sold about 6 very nice 50 cc machines. I finally have matured in my CAD and can say that the C-M saws are my kinda saw. Chunky (so some say) or not, they are damn good runners!!


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## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Yep. Some people always chase the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! Some slow down and consolidate and enjoy the little things and find happiness. Congradulations Randy!


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

There is only a weary Randy at the end of the rainbow my friends. 

I've been working since I was 14......

It's time to hang around the house.


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## MasterMech (Aug 17, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> I want see a stock to ported graph for every saw now  Especially the C-M line up
> 
> And for the record, the only two 50 cc saws that have impressed me, is your 261C-M, and Teds 550xp. That 261C-M with Hedgerow's chain he filed for you, was an amazing combo. Because of your 261 and that graph are the ONLY reasons I will be keeping this one. I have bought, traded, and sold about 6 very nice 50 cc machines. I finally have matured in my CAD and can say that the C-M saws are my kinda saw. Chunky (so some say) or not, they are damn good runners!!


Nothing chunky about the 241....


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## DexterDay (Aug 17, 2014)

MasterMech said:


> Nothing chunky about the 241....



Yeah, but holding onto a 50 cc saw is hard.. A 40 cc saw would be impossible


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## SquareFile (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> These graphs have booked my little shop out past the new year.


 
You could sell that gragh on temporary tattoos. lmfao

Heck I know a guy that might put that as a tramp stamp, sorry couldn't help myself

As if your head hasn't swelled enough

Keep up the great work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

Yeah.......about my head. 

Now how in the hell am I gonna get in muh truck?


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## SquareFile (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah.......about my head.
> 
> Now how in the hell am I gonna get in muh truck?


 
Buy a single stack Mack with a window in the back


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## MustangMike (Aug 17, 2014)

Now I just want to see a parallel graph, for the 362, that will confirm Dex's impression!

Oh, and don't worry about the 362 being chunky, I posted measurements some time ago and not a single 562 owner responded.

FYI, I'm not knocking the 562, I think it is a fantastic saw. But I also think the 362 is just as slim and just as strong.

I believe that anyone that owns either saw is a happy camper!


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)




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## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

I'd rather have a 665 for a 60cc saw. It seems to cut with the 70cc saws stockopcorn:


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## MustangMike (Aug 17, 2014)

Wow, but that is a wrap handle with extra dogs & chain catcher. I believe the actual saw (non wrap) is 13 flat.

What I had posted was the width and height. I think they are about the same (non wrap handle).

If you want, I will measure and post again (no wait, I can't I don't have my saw!)


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## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

lol


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## MustangMike (Aug 17, 2014)

I was looking for the 362 R on line, but they don't have it. Somehow, they now have the 362 as 12.8 lbs, which I do not believe. I think the previously listed 13.0 was correct. FYI, the 461 R is 6/10ths of a pound more than the regular 461, for whatever that is worth.


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## Dieselshawn (Aug 17, 2014)

If only Stihl would come out with their carbon version. Light weight with more power than 661 with fuel injection.


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## hedge hog (Feb 27, 2017)

For the 261 cm was there a stock ,muffler mod ,and ported chart ?
I seen the 661 had it and didn't read all the post 
Sorry


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chadihman (Feb 28, 2017)

hedge hog said:


> For the 261 cm was there a stock ,muffler mod ,and ported chart ?
> I seen the 661 had it and didn't read all the post
> Sorry
> 
> ...


Nope this test was with a saw that Randy ported against my stock 261


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## Guru LLC (Feb 28, 2017)

chadihman said:


> Nope this test was with a saw that Randy ported against my stock 261



I wonder what ever happened to that guy?


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## maulhead (Feb 28, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> I wonder what ever happened to that guy?


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## Guru LLC (Mar 1, 2017)

maulhead said:


>




Repped


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