# synthetic oil in splitter?



## aaronmach1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Is there much bennifit in running synthetic oil in my log splitter engine? Seems like i read somwhere on here thats its a good idea and cheap so why not do it. Any down falls of it? I have a huskee 22ton with briggs engine.


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## greendohn (Apr 30, 2012)

*???cheap???*

synthetic oil 'aint cheap,,when compared to conventional oil, which 'aint cheap either these days.

full synthetic oil is a superior oil when compared to conventional oil for lubrication and longevity in an internal combustion engine. 'specially if a person is negligent in the maintenance of their equipment and don't keep the air filter clean and/or don't change the oil as often as they should.

is the additional expense of synthetics worth it ?? i would guess it is, however, i keep an eye on the maintenance of all the old, well used , run down clapped-out junk i own and run a "top shelf" standard oil. 

:monkey:


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## Somesawguy (Apr 30, 2012)

It can't hurt, but if you change your oil once a year or so, you're probably fine with regular oil. It's up to you though. 

I don't run my splitter enough to worry about the motor life difference between regular and synthetic.


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## D&B Mack (Apr 30, 2012)

No negatives other than cost.


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## Fred Wright (Apr 30, 2012)

As I understand, synthetic motor oil is a good choice for older small engines, ones that have a lot of hours.


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## avalancher (Apr 30, 2012)

Fred Wright said:


> As I understand, synthetic motor oil is a good choice for older small engines, ones that have a lot of hours.



Actually, its just the opposite. Older engines that get switched to synthetic may develop engine oil leaks at the seals, especially in the crank seals. Synthetic oil is thinner, and may work its way past worn seals.Also, older engines have seals that may deteriorate from use of synthetic oils. Best bet is to follow the engine manufacturers recommendations if its an older machine.


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## aaronmach1 (Apr 30, 2012)

is regular 5w30 too thin for michigan summers? Up to 90 deg. F


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## cnice_37 (Apr 30, 2012)

aaronmach1 said:


> is regular 5w30 too thin for michigan summers? Up to 90 deg. F



I'd think straight 30 would be your best bet during the summer.


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## CTYank (Apr 30, 2012)

When I was running hydraulics, I found that one BIG benefit of synthetic oil was cold-cranking the engine. Made it much easier to crank an 8-horse one-lunger when the temps were down in the teens. Never saw any reason to change the oil; mid-summer is time for beach or mountains, 'round here.


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## angelo c (Apr 30, 2012)

NOt trying to be a smart A55 but can someone point me to where it says that a "synthetic" oil is "more lubricating" or less something or other? I think this is a myth that needs to be debunked. I feel yes synth might be thinner at lower temps but not sure if its at all any "better" for a small engine crankcase. Where a synthetic oil surpasses a conventional is in its "long term" use stabilities. So if you are the type that doesn't change oil often you are better served with a Synth, if you change your oil and filter regularly save your $. you guys can read all you want to @ bobistheoilguy.com....basically its the "arboristsite" for oils.

Flame suit on....


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## nixon (Apr 30, 2012)

aaronmach1 said:


> Is there much bennifit in running synthetic oil in my log splitter engine? Seems like i read somwhere on here thats its a good idea and cheap so why not do it. Any down falls of it? I have a huskee 22ton with briggs engine.



I can't really attest scientifically to any real benefits . And synthetic does cost a bit more to buy. 
Howevever,having said that,I've gone with Scheaffers # 264 in ISO 32 . The splitter seems happier on cold starts . If really warm weather is your concern try ISO 46 . but the 32 seems to work well in our temps ( w.pa ).


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## D&B Mack (Apr 30, 2012)

angelo c said:


> NOt trying to be a smart A55 but can someone point me to where it says that a "synthetic" oil is "more lubricating" or less something or other? I think this is a myth that needs to be debunked. I feel yes synth might be thinner at lower temps but not sure if its at all any "better" for a small engine crankcase. Where a synthetic oil surpasses a conventional is in its "long term" use stabilities. So if you are the type that doesn't change oil often you are better served with a Synth, if you change your oil and filter regularly save your $. you guys can read all you want to @ bobistheoilguy.com....basically its the "arboristsite" for oils.
> 
> Flame suit on....



We were doing studies in thermodynamics in college using oil. The professor specified to use synthetic because is lubricating/viscosity properties changed very little over time therefore keeping our results more consistent. So I guess it would help lubrication over time as the oil's impurities were exposed and heat-treated. I'm no oil expert, but I can see where it may apply, not sure though.


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## Whitespider (Apr 30, 2012)

Really you’ll be missing the biggest advantage to using synthetic oil if you use it in a small engine… that would be the longevity (unless your small engine is pressure lubed and filtered). Small engines, without oil filters, need to have the oil changed at the same interval no matter what oil you pour in them… because oil contamination is what’s doing the damage way before the oil breaks-down enough to be a player. In my mind it’s just a waste of cold, hard cash to use synthetics in small engines when good quality conventional oil offers the same exact protection and longevity.

My fleet of small engines gets 10w30 for summer time use, 5w30 for spring and fall use, and the couple I use through the dead of winter get 5w20 when the temps really start dropping. I believe in changing oil often in small engines… at least twice a year, the ones used more often get it 3 times, and the ones used heavy year ‘round get 4 oil changes a year. And I always change the oil before I put any small engine away for a couple months, no matter how short-time the oil has been in it… I want clean oil in any engine just sitting (dirty, contaminated oil is highly corrosive). Right or wrong it’s worked for me, I ain’t broke one yet… the 10 horse Tecumseh on my old wood haulin’ garden tractor is near 45 years old and starts at 20[sup]o[/sup] below zero (still doesn’t use any oil to speak of), the 20 year old JD lawn tractor/mower has a 12.5 horse Kohler that still starts at a touch of the key, runs perfect (and doesn’t use any oil), the 30+ year old splitter has a 7 horse Tecumseh that still runs perfect (uses a little oil if I really work it hard and I did have to replace the head gasket last year), pressure washer with a 3.5 B&S from the early 90’s (but the damn water pump went belly-up this spring), garden tillers, snow blowers, etc., etc., etc….. Keep the oil clean, keep the air filter clean and you'll do those engines more good than any synthetic oil ever could.

I’ve never purchased a single quart of synthetic oil in my life.


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## dingeryote (Apr 30, 2012)

Synthetic has many benefits for any engine.

First is it's temp stability. It pretty much remains in the same state within any normal temp range, so it is not "Thicker" and slower flowing in the cold, or thinner in the heat, which helps with both protection and ease of starts in the cold, and in the heat.

Synthetics have a Longer carbon chain, hence they are more "durable" in the effect of taking longer to break down.
As Dino gets used, the carbon chains start to get broken down and "Chopped up", same thing with synth, but because they are loinger to start with, they protect from wear longer and at a wider temp range.

The wives tail about causing seals and gaskets to leak on older engines has some merit based upon the older synth formulations that weren't as advanced as the ones we have today that effectively compensate. Some brands nowdays have better sealing additives than others, and actually can be used to slow down small weeping leaks. Valvoline and thier various relabeled stuff like NAPA and Parts master has worked pretty good for us in that capacity.

5-30 is still 30wt and should be fine for Mich summers. 
We run exactly that or 10-30 synth in our splitters Honda and several GX series field pumps that run all summer.
Cold starts are a LOT easier in the winter. 

As for cost? $4.19 a qt. and it's rebadged Valvoline that meets the same specs.
http://www.autoparts2020.com/rsdev/part_group.jsp?PHPRJ_GROUP_ID=4200&cat=2

NAPA has frequent sales on thier rebadged Synthetics that bring the price down to plain old Dino as well.

Even at a dollar a quart difference, it's worth it over the life of a hard use air cooled motor IMO.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## nixon (Apr 30, 2012)

*Doh ! moment .*

Misread the thread . I was thinking hyd. Fluids . As far as engine oil .... Husqvarna xp four cycle oil , or Rotella t6 .


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## Blackbruin (Apr 30, 2012)

synthetic oil flows better, certain brands will dissipate heat better, more resistant to corrosives and foaming. sure it gets dirty just like conventional, but will "carry" that dirt better. I have very rarely seen any seal leaking, its not thinner per say, it removes all the old petroleum residue and dirt away from the seal, showing that seal was bad or almost gone anyway. Ive put amsoil, im alot of stuff, atv's tractors, autos, chainsaws, boats etc.... Found it to work very well, have infareded temperatures with and without. On my new splitter during its 5hr breakin with regular oil from factory was measured at 37 degrees ambient after an hour run. Amsoil was same thing an hour run at 43 degrees, 6 degree higher ambient and was 26 degrees cooler in the same motor, heat kills, 26 degrees can mean a difference on longevity oil breakdown, foaming, etc... 
i dont think your gonna throw your money away, most log splitter engines take less than a quart, and most conventional oil is 4 dollars a quart, amsoil small 4 cycle engine 30w is 7.35 a quart for me. If you dont mind the extra 4 bucks roughly, for a better performing product, once a year or two, than go for it.


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## Whitespider (Apr 30, 2012)

Naw.... I'm not buying it... all hype... Thermal breakdown ain't the problem with oil in small engines.
And carrying the dirt better? What the hell does that mean? It moves it faster to the wear areas? Don't you get it? It carries it better to the filter... the filter that's non-existent on small engines. Just 'cause it's synthetic don't in any way, shape or form mean it can nullify the effects of grit in the oil.

But, it's what ever ya' wants ta' believe.


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## Dogsout (Apr 30, 2012)

Blackbruin said:


> will dissipate heat better



Put 2 hours on my new 35 ton Speeco last year and then it was straight to the synthetic oil when changing the original oil in the splitter. Synthetic will flat out dissipate heat way better then regular oil. Heat is a major killer of small engines and if I can spend a couple bucks more to minimize that you can bet I will. Spider I don't get the logic of changing oil up to 4 times a year on some small engines which would cost more in total then one good change of synthetic and be done with it for the year. Hey if you are sold on it more power to you. I will pay the few extra bucks for what I believe to be better protection for my small engines.


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## Mntn Man (Apr 30, 2012)

I run synthetic in mine for the winter starting. For no more oil that I put in it in a year, the cost doesn't matter and I get it cheap anyway. I don't go out of my way to run it above 50 degrees outside so that doesn't matter. I run synthetic 32 for hydro, because it was free.


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## Walt41 (Apr 30, 2012)

I think the most important thing is to CHANGE the oil at frequent intervals, I like synthetics for cleaning out old gunked up engines that have had a hard life but overall I think it always comes back to following a regular service schedule.


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## Whitespider (Apr 30, 2012)

Listen guys, I worked in the automotive industry for over 22 years...
Synthetic oils have their place, and offer huge advantages under certain operating conditions.
In small engines they have nothing to offer that offsets the added cost, and could possibly cause unintended problems... and that's a fact.
You can talk about carbon chains, temperature, and all the other science crap ya' want... it don't matter.
For example, your engine runs better and more efficiently when hot rather than cold (within reason) and few degrees either way ain't gonna' amount to crap!
And just because a "dirty" synthetic oil allows easier starting in cold weather doesn't mean that's a "good" thing... all it's doing is masking a warning sign you should be seeing.

Hell, I could go on-and-on with this...
But again... it's what ever ya' wants ta' believe.


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## Arbonaut (Apr 30, 2012)

Archer Oil met the mil spec (MIL6082-D does that sound right?) they make the best conventional oil. At least it was the best. I don't know what Growmark is doing with the technology since that aquisition. But it was designed to run in airplane engines when they suddenly became an asset for our military.

Synthetic is definitely the best. Ester base stocks are unsurpassed unless they are doing more with polyalphaolefin and alkylated naphthalene which I'm not sure is a pure synthetic anyhow. Keep up with the filters.


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## Whitespider (Apr 30, 2012)

dogsout said:


> *spider i don't get the logic of changing oil up to 4 times a year on some small engines which would cost more in total then one good change of synthetic and be done with it for the year.*



*because synthetic oil does not extend the time between oil changes in small engines without oil filters... Never has... Never will... And never can!!! You are only fooling yourself if you believe it does!!*


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## Dogsout (Apr 30, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> *BECAUSE SYNTHETIC OIL DOES NOT EXTEND THE TIME BETWEEN OIL CHANGES IN SMALL ENGINES WITHOUT OIL FILTERS... NEVER HAS... NEVER WILL... AND NEVER CAN!!!*


*

I think you cap lock is stuck on Spider. I will run right out tonight and change out that worthless synthetic in my mower and splitter. Thank you for setting me straight with all of your wisdom and knowledge.*


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## Arbonaut (Apr 30, 2012)

Dogsout said:


> I think you cap lock is stuck on Spider. I will run right out tonight and change out that worthless synthetic in my mower and splitter. Thank you for setting me straight with all of your wisdom and knowledge.



Don't do that without at least a one-state cushion. You might need a couple hours' head start.


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## Whitespider (Apr 30, 2012)

Believe what ever ya' wants ta' believe.


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## Arbonaut (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's the best thang for Air-Cooled 50-1 Two Strokes anyhow. I buy it in gallons.


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## Iska3 (Apr 30, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Synthetic has many benefits for any engine.
> 
> First is it's temp stability. It pretty much remains in the same state within any normal temp range, so it is not "Thicker" and slower flowing in the cold, or thinner in the heat, which helps with both protection and ease of starts in the cold, and in the heat.
> 
> ...



What Steve and Dingeryote are saying is true. We only use Synthetics in our newer planes or a plane with a fresh engine. The older high time plane can ony use 50/50 Arowshell Oil because the 100% Synthetics is much thinner and the older seals and valve guides will leak. Mostly because the seals were poor over the years past and show up now with the thinner oil. Some of the new Synthetics have better sealing additives so this helps on the small engines. We do oil tests on all of our planes, the Synthetics pass all test after 100 hours and the standard oils need to be changed after 25 to 30 hours. When using Synthetics I gained 2500 hours after the recommended TOH and looking for over 3,000 hrs so the Synthetics works for us. 

I use 0/50 in the new ATV but would never use that in the older one because of the cracks in the seals. Like Spidy, I change the oil in the small engines twice each years so I use anything I have. The spiltter was new so it gets 5-40 Synthetics and will start at -15 if I pre heat the Hyd Oil. 

Fresh oil is the cheapest thing that you can do for any engine.


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## dingeryote (Apr 30, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Believe what ever ya' wants ta' believe.



Spider...you ever had a UOA done on any of your small engines?

Try one sometime. One with your favorite Dino and one with an equal weight synth. Same operating interval and conditions.
You will be surprised at the results. 

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## angelo c (May 1, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Spider...you ever had a UOA done on any of your small engines?
> 
> Try one sometime. One with your favorite Dino and one with an equal weight synth. Same operating interval and conditions.
> You will be surprised at the results.
> ...



Dinger,
Are you suggesting to do a $20 analysys on $3 bucks worth of oil in a 7hp splitter ? I say instead of UOA, buy a Hobbs meter and change the oil on schedule.


Keeping your oil clean is what is important here guys, pretty much all oils have the same mil specs or ansi ratings..if using synths makes you feel warm and cozy, well then by all means do so...but keep it fresh especially in an engine that has no filtration capabilities. If there are any documented cases where a small air cooled engine lasted longer because of synth ( that didn't come from a synth oil marketing ad) I'd like to see them.


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## dingeryote (May 1, 2012)

angelo c said:


> Dinger,
> Are you suggesting to do a $20 analysys on $3 bucks worth of oil in a 7hp splitter ? I say instead of UOA, buy a Hobbs meter and change the oil on schedule.
> 
> 
> Keeping your oil clean is what is important here guys, pretty much all oils have the same mil specs or ansi ratings..if using synths makes you feel warm and cozy, well then by all means do so...but keep it fresh especially in an engine that has no filtration capabilities. If there are any documented cases where a small air cooled engine lasted longer because of synth ( that didn't come from a synth oil marketing ad) I'd like to see them.




If a guy is going to make a fallacious statement and counter technical facts and realitys..he might need to be 40 bucks lighter in the wallet before recognizing there is obviously too much fiber in his diet. 

Heat and particulates are what kills air cooled engines.
Agreed on maintaining the blind interval for changes to counter the particulate problem. Beyond that, is the conversation currently at hand.

At the same time, less wear can be achieved using synthetic during the same interval between blind changes if from lower operating temps alone, and for a few pennies more in most cases. You suggest documentation, I suggest UOA and make the same point.

I have done UOA on a couple motors that are critical to our use. 
There is definately a lower engine metals count with the synth. with each.
Keeping the air clean is only part of the issue. Heat and combustion byproducts will break down Dino faster and lead to wear as well, and often before the blind interval is reached, as they are established as an average. Cold starts and operation is another factor, Synth is proven to reduce wear from cold starts, especially in air cooled small engines.

Spend a buck to save two?


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## angelo c (May 1, 2012)

Dinger, 
What metals did you find were less worn in your tests? Not trying to belabor the issue but I'd like to know parts I was "saving" in these small bore engines. 

Im not familiar with finding from UOA in small 4 strokes. I am familiar with large bore aircooled continentals and Lycomings, in that use we monitored "Trends" to see if a particular metal was more present in findings and why. typically we were looking for cam wear, bearing breakdown and high silica counts( dirt/sand-poor air filtration or leaks). 

If you guys haven't seen one of these they are pretty cool for oil changes. 

Fumoto Valve | Qwik Valve™


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## D&B Mack (May 1, 2012)

How many dollars are we arguing about here anyway. Over the life of a small engine, can't be much in relative terms. :confused2:


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## Whitespider (May 1, 2012)

OK, let’s go with technical facts;

Fact #1 - Conventional motor oil begins loosing its lubricating properties at -20[sup]o[/sup], synthetic at -40[sup]o[/sup]. So, how many of you live where temps dip below -20[sup]o[/sup]… or if you do, how many of you start your splitter when the actual oil temp is below -20[sup]o[/sup]?

Fact #2 - Conventional motor oil begins experiencing thermal breakdown at 450[sup]o[/sup], synthetic at something over 650[sup]o[/sup]. Show me a small air-cooled engine where oil temperatures reach even 400[sup]o[/sup] and I’ll eat my hat.

Fact #3 - Not a single manufacturer of small engines recommends extending oil change intervals when using synthetic oil… in fact near all of them specifically state you should not extend oil change intervals. Here’s a challenge… Prove me wrong!!

Fact #4 - Not a single manufacturer of synthetic oil recommends extending oil change intervals in small air cooled engines… in fact near all of them specifically state you should not extend oil change intervals (although some state that you can do an oil analysis at each oil change and follow the recommendations from those, otherwise follow engine manufacturers recommendations). Here’s another challenge… Prove me wrong!!

Fact #5 - Every manufacturer of small engines recommends using a certain SAE weight of oil depending on operating conditions (such as temperature)… and it doesn’t matter if it’s conventional or synthetic. Not one single manufacturer of small engines says you can put (for example) 0w50 synthetic in your engine and cover all your bases… it just don’t work that way!

Fact #6 - The oil in small engines has become contaminated enough to cause damage long before the oil (even conventional oil) begins wear breakdown. Synthetic oil cannot counter the effects of contamination… it ain’t magic stuff. If you’re running oil in small engines long enough to experience damage from wear breakdown the damage from contamination is monstrous in comparison.

Fact #7 - It is true that synthetics are a bit slipperier, flow a bit more consistent over wider temperatures, dissipate heat more readily, and can reduce wear to a point… but… The question is, does that make any difference in the real world of small air cooled engines where the oil sits in the bottom of the crankcase doesn’t “flow” by pressure lubrication? The oil is paddle splashed, it doesn’t flow. There ain’t an oil cooler or fins on the crankcase (usually). Sure, a small engine will run a bit cooler with synthetic, but so what… you can’t seriously believe a few degrees cooler is gonna’ make any real difference? Engine wear may be slower in a new engine, but eventually it will catch-up as the engine breaks-in (and will actually wear more if you think you can go longer between oil changes). Yes, there is a bit of an advantage at cold start-up… but how much? It ain’t like your car engine that gets started daily… or multiple times daily.

Fact #8 - Synthetic oil is not gonna’ harm your small air-cooled engine… but given the fact that it still needs to be changed at the same intervals, the added cost provides no “real” tangible advantage. Use it if you want, but don’t believe it will extend the life of your small engine… And if you think you can go longer between oil changes you’ll only reduce the life of your small engine… and that’s a fact!


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## D&B Mack (May 1, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> OK, let’s go with technical facts;
> 
> Fact #5 - Every manufacturer of small engines recommends using a certain SAE weight of oil depending on operating conditions (such as temperature)… and it doesn’t matter if it’s conventional or synthetic. Not one single manufacturer of small engines says you can put (for example) 0w50 synthetic in your engine and cover all your bases… it just don’t work that way!



But the temp range is not the same for synthetic to standard vs. weight, at least not on my Honda and Subaru engines.


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## Whitespider (May 1, 2012)

D&B Mack said:


> *But the temp range is not the same for synthetic to standard vs. weight, at least not on my Honda and Subaru engines.*



You missed the point.


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## D&B Mack (May 1, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> You missed the point.



No I didn't. I am just pointing out that the engine manufactures are designating a difference between standard and synthetic. I take no issue with the rest of your post.


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## cheeves (May 1, 2012)

aaronmach1 said:


> Is there much bennifit in running synthetic oil in my log splitter engine? Seems like i read somwhere on here thats its a good idea and cheap so why not do it. Any down falls of it? I have a huskee 22ton with briggs engine.


It's all my father uses in his, Wally World synthetic. And he was one of the first jet mechanics for AA. Rebuilds old Gravely's like new. Beautiful machines!!


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## dingeryote (May 1, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> OK, let’s go with technical facts;
> 
> Fact #1 - Conventional motor oil begins loosing its lubricating properties at -20[sup]o[/sup], synthetic at -40[sup]o[/sup]. So, how many of you live where temps dip below -20[sup]o[/sup]… or if you do, how many of you start your splitter when the actual oil temp is below -20[sup]o[/sup]?
> 
> ...



Spider,

The only one arguing the point on extending the OCI is you.

Flow rate at start up on a slinger lubed small engine IS rather important, and even more important than with a pressurized system. Even at 20 degrees dino is thick enough to not flow for crap and get to the components needing the protection for several minuites as the thing warms up.
No, dino isn't set up as sludge at 20 like it is at -20 but it damn sure dosn't move real quick either.
And yes, some of aren't too sissified to use the splitter when it gets cold. That's the best time to split.
Advantage synth.

Heat causes a non linear reduction in viscosity with Dino.
Run an air cooled field pump on a humid 90 degree day for 12 hours, and they get up there in temp and stay there the whole time.
Running cooler on synth is just one benefit. They run cooler because of less friction...friction means wear, hot metals wear faster than cooler metals. It's not rocket surgery.
Again advantage synth.

If you need, I'll dig up some tech articles for you to mull over.

With good synth available at the same price or just pennies more, it's silly to ignore the advantages and extended life of the components in the long run.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## CTYank (May 1, 2012)

Yet another source of confusion here is "weight" of lube oil. Viscosity, and then viscosity index, have absolutely nothing to do with weight.
For USN turbines, you deal directly with viscosity of lubes. Keeps it simple. Too complicated for many.

What we're dealing with here is *viscosity index*. That's a number assigned per SAE specs for some approximate temp-viscosity curve. It's pretty straightforward for "straight" grades.

For synth oils, the curve is essentially a flat line, very different from dino lubes. So, essentially they are inherently multi-grade but with the numbers meaning something. E.g. a 5w20 is a good approximation of a "straight 5" over a wide range of temps; similar for the higher-temp rating. With little variation in actual viscosity.

OTOH, a dino 5w20 is totally different: progressively more viscous than a 5 as temp is lowered, and progressively less viscous than a 20 in the high-temp region.

These specification curves have been published, and knowing what they tell, with understanding of basic flow characteristics of synth lubes, can help "cut the crap." "Figures don't lie, but ..."

The low-temp aspect of this is very important to me- makes hand-cranking much easier, and makes life much easier on automotive starter motors when temps are well below zero. Where a 10W30 would be like taffy. :msp_razz:


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## MofoG23 (May 1, 2012)

This thread makes me chuckle...although I can appreciate the technical discussion. 

Bottom line for the OP - a good quality synthetic will certainly *not* hurt your small engine - if anything, it could provide better protection. Is it worth a couple extra bucks? For me, yes...no question.

I run a quality full synthetic in all of my small engines year 'round (5w-30) and have had zero issues. Did I prevent a lock up or early failure? I have no idea. Do I feel just a bit better knowing I have a high quality engine oil in there when I'm working my equipment hard? Absolutely.


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## angelo c (May 1, 2012)

I'm open to using Synths...when someone can provide some documentable data that supports that you will benefit X dollars by using Y oil over any chump wally world oil. 

We all seem to "feel" synths are better because they are more "slick" (which reminds me of the old "slick 50" crap we bought years ago- bleach in a bottle- awesome) but nobody has provided data that states it is X % slicker then dyno.

All I'm looking for is...

Synth costs $5...dyno costs $4....if I change my oil 50x I will recover my added expense in Y time though Z less repair. Real simple cost analysis. Sorry guys, working with business bankers all day long forces you to be skeptical.

As many have stated, its the dirt or carbon deposits that cause most of the wear. changing the oil often will flush that crud out. or a good filtration system that most of these small engines don't have. Heck for many years aircraft engines had nothing more then a "screen" for a filter. Mind boggling but true. $30k engine with 4 passengers aboard a $150k airplane and no filter what so ever. priceless.


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## Mntn Man (May 1, 2012)

..........and at 2/3 of a quart in the engine, we are talking big money, lol.


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## Mntn Man (May 1, 2012)

I forgot to add:

Try to pull start the engine at 5 dergrees with 5w 30 dino. Then change to 5w 30 synthetic and be amazed when it starts on the first pull.

That is the only reason I use synthetic, well, and it is what I use in my Tahoe and Silverado, so I already have it on hand.:msp_biggrin:


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## Whitespider (May 1, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> *Spider, The only one arguing the point on extending the OCI is you*



That’s flat BS… lets review;



greendohn said:


> *full synthetic oil is a superior oil when compared to conventional oil for lubrication and longevity*





Somesawguy said:


> *if you change your oil once a year or so, you're probably fine with regular oil*





angelo c said:


> *Where a synthetic oil surpasses a conventional is in its "long term" use stabilities. So if you are the type that doesn't change oil often you are better served with a Synth*





Dogsout said:


> * Spider I don't get the logic of changing oil up to 4 times a year on some small engines which would cost more in total then one good change of synthetic and be done with it for the year*



And then we have...



dingeryote said:


> *With good synth available at the same price or just pennies more*


 Where the hell is that? Yeah, if you compare name-brand conventional to generic-label synthetics you might be able to get within a dollar a quart (not around here, closer to two bucks), but compare label-to-label it’ll be closer to four bucks or more. Let’s see, say a dollar a quart… my old JD has run for 20 years, 3 oil changes a year, 1.5 quarts per change… that’s $90.oo… times my fleet of 6 small 4-cycle engines… that’s $540.oo… hardly pennies. And if you use label-to-label prices, well at $4.oo difference… that’s $2160.oo… pennies aren’t even in the equation anymore.

Now I’m sure someone will claim that $2160.oo (extra) for oil changes over 20 years on 6 engines ain’t much (18 dollars a year)… But I just bought a replacement for the 20-year-old JD for $100.oo less than that… The thing is, the tractor and mower deck on the old JD wore out before the engine did, and I used the money saved to replace it. So, where exactly was the advantage for me to use synthetic oils?


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## dingeryote (May 1, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> That’s flat BS… lets review;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Spider.

$4.19 a qt. Full synthetic. If you have a business account and are a Farm bureau member it's even less. Best part is....it is Valvoline with all the specs and ratings that come with the Valvoline add pack.
http://www.autoparts2020.com/rsdev/part_group.jsp?PHPRJ_GROUP_ID=4200&cat=2

NAPA has a synthetic line that is similar and just as cheap. Both are cheaper than several big brands Dino that carries lesser ratings and certs. 
Oh look, it's going on sale for $3.79! LOL!! http://specials.napaecatalog.com/WebProject.asp?CodeId=7.5.5.6&BookCode=may12flx

I don't buy the brand, I look for ratings and certs as well as add pack. Both the NAPA and the parts master are top tier and made by Valvoline/ Ashland. 

Call me quirky.

Just 'cuz ya didn't ask, but might be interested. Here's a pretty straight forward treatise on Mineral vs Synth. and done with common sense in mind and not Lab Rat speak. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## AIM (May 2, 2012)

I believe that synthetics are better and I have absolutely ZERO facts to back it up...


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## Whitespider (May 2, 2012)

But *Dingeryote*,

That ain't close to "pennies"... I buy Kendall conventional oil for $1.75 - $2.25 depending on container size and sale prices.
Like I said, the difference is closer to $2.oo a quart comparing name brand to generic label... and label to label, well Kendall synthetic runs $8.oo - $11.oo depending.

And I'll ask it again...
If my small engines already outlast the equipment they're bolted to using conventional oil... where is the advantage for me to spend the extra on synthetic oil? What about Lucas Oil Treatment, or STP, or any of the other oil add-ins? They all have numbers and figures supporting why they should be used also... such as extended engine life, oil stability, etc. Using the reasoning in this thread we all should be spending an extra dollar on those also. Synthetic oils have their place and uses... I'm not arguing that... but using synthetic oils in small engines is like putting "Z" rated tires on a Volkswagen Beetle.

(By-the-way, just me and my personal opinion formed during 22 years in the automotive business, there are two brands of oil, synthetic or conventional, I won't buy at any price... one is Valvoline and the other is Pennzoil. But that's a different argument for a different day.)


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## hardpan (May 2, 2012)

When I worked at the steel mill we had many big gear boxes and the warranty was void if problems occured when synthetic lube was not used. Each one of these things cost considerably more than my house. They had helicopter grade gears in them, apparently people are pretty picky about the quality of the gears in a helicopter so of course we used synthetic. I was involved with the lubrication of most of the machines and the classes we took always recommended synthetic when applicable. I am convinced that synthetics are generally better but I am also somewhat skeptical of all the miracle lubrication products on the shelf.


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## Steve NW WI (May 2, 2012)

Y'all are way overthinking this.

A 5 qt jug of Mobil 1 leaves me with about 1/2 quart left over. My 8 year old 220K mile commuter car doesn't use a drop in 7500 miles between changes. That leaves me with 2 quarts of "free" (note the quotation marks, I know it's not actually free) oil per year to use or dispose of. (Yeah, I drive a lot!)

I am such a lucky guy, my mower with a 24hp Kawi holds 2 quarts. It gets fresh synthetic every year. (FAR short of the 100 hr recommended interval. Kawi does not have a calendar interval for changes listed - I just checked)


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## avalancher (May 2, 2012)

Well, I will tell you where I stand, not that anybody asked...LOL

I avoid synthetic oils, no matter what the application. Wanna know why? Cause I believe it leads a guy down the road of neglect. And here is why.

Syn costs more, I dont care where you buy it, how much bulk you buy, etc etc. No, I aint trying to be a cheap bastard, quite to the contrary. But here is the deal. Most engine wear is caused by contaiments in the oil. Metal particles, moisture, dirt and grime, etc. Contrary to popular belief, engine oil does not wear out, it gets dirty. Dont believe me? Then ask the United States Navy. After countless studies, our military concluded that oil does not wear out, and thats why on board ship we changed oil on every piece of equipement a jillion times, but used the same oil over and over again after running it through a purifier. We would drain the oil, purify it, and dump it right back in the piece of equipement being serviced. According to my Chief while discussing this issue, one ship that I served on had never bought any new oil for that engine room, ever. And that ship was sixty years old!

Now, back to the syn argument. Lets say your oil change using syn is $30 not including the filter. Now, if the same change cost you $12 for conventional oil, might that tempt you to put off that oil change a bit longer? Dont know about you, but it would me, considering that with four trucks/cars in the family, and almost a dozen small gas engines, it adds up quick.

And for that reason, I use conventional oils and I change oil frequently. My log splitter gets the oil changed every fifteen hours.No, I aint lying. I attached a tin can to some stiff wire, and after hooking up the tractor to the splitter, I attach the tin cup to the splitter under the plug, and let it drain as I pull it out to my splitting area. By the time I get there, the oil has drained. Behind the seat on my tractor I keep a bottle of oil prefilled to the exact level the splitter takes, and I dump it in to the splitter after putting the plug in. Takes almost no time at all.

Wanna know what makes me think this way?I will tell you. Some years ago I worked in a truck shop, and one day got a rod and main bearing replacement assignment. After dropping the pan, I noted that the bearings were tight, I mean factory tight. Figuring that there has to be some mistake, I verified the mileage on the odometer with the work ticket. 500,000 miles on that rig. I went and found the driver in the drivers lounge and flat out told him that there was no reason for a rod and main replacement.
He wanted it done anyway, was a big believer in preventing any break downs on the road, and I had to ask him just how in the hell did he manage that kind of mileage with so little wear on the bearings. His reply was simple. He changed the oil and did all maintenance on the rig at half of what the manufacturer said he could get away with. 

And at that point I adopted his way of thinking. I have 361,000 miles on my Ford Bronco, and it doesnt use a drop of oil. 116,000 on my Dodge Dakota, and it runs as good as it was brand new. I have never done anything to either rig except a water pump on the Dodge, and an alternator on the Bronco along with a power steering pump. other than that, just maintenence.

The proof is in the pudding. I change my oil often,and I figure its better to have a good conventional oil changed often than big bucks on syn and stretch it out.


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## MofoG23 (May 2, 2012)

No neglect here due to synthetic oil...all of my equipment receives old changes well before the recommended interval (based on hours) - once a year usually covers all of my equipment easily.

I do not know many people who are anal about their oil only to neglect their equipment or extend their oil changes - if anything I find the opposite. Most people I know might change their oil too much...(in the context of automobiles).


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## avalancher (May 2, 2012)

MofoG23 said:


> I do not know many people who are anal about their oil only to neglect their equipment or extend their oil changes - if anything I find the opposite. Most people I know might change their oil too much...(in the context of automobiles).



Well, your experiences are very different from mine then. The majority of the folks that I know who use synthetic oils subscribe to the "hey, it says 10,000 miles between oil changes for a reason" and that right there makes me shudder. Sure, maybe the oil holds up for ten thousand miles.But what about the contaminants in the oil? Sure, the argument may be made that with synthetic oils there is more "slip" to the oil, hence less wear and therefore less metal particles in the oil, but what about dirt? Air filters only catch so much, and depending on the area that you live in, there is a certain amount that gets by the filters.

On top of that, it also leads a guy down a certain path. I dont know about you, but every time I change the oil I inspect the vehicle from one end to the other. Cant tell you how many times I have found a loose or missing exhaust bracket or hanger, burnt out tail light, etc. Catching a problem early or every 2500 miles instead of every 10,000 miles can avoid some pretty expensive repairs, or even a ticket.

To make matters worse, most air cooled engines do not have a filter, at least the smaller ones. Without a filter, every single piece of dirt, metal shaving, etc is free to roam around the engine, scarring everything it runs across, and for this reason above all else I subscribe to frequent oil changes, even carrying it a little extreme. When I pull the rope, I wanna hear a purr, not a clanging.


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## Whitespider (May 2, 2012)

Well now, finally some common sense thinking....

I'd rep ya' avalancher but it's tellin' me I gotta' spread it around first.

Don't have an hour meter on it, but I'm bettin' my splitter (that's over 30 years old) gets the oil changed more often than 15 hours of run time... 'cause I change it by date, even if I'm not using much at all!!!


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## Sandhill Crane (May 2, 2012)

I have heard not to use synthetic if an engine sits for long periods because it does not 'stick' to the internal parts as well. Anyone ever heard that reasoning? Do you think there is anything to it? I use synthetic and change often, based on calendar time not so much run time. I also pull my splitter and conveyor engines and change oil on the bench. To do otherwise is a pain in the butt.


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## AIM (May 2, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Well now, finally some common sense thinking....
> 
> I'd rep ya' avalancher but it's tellin' me I gotta' spread it around first.
> 
> Don't have an hour meter on it, but I'm bettin' my splitter (that's over 30 years old) gets the oil changed more often than 15 hours of run time... 'cause I change it by date, even if I'm not using much at all!!!



Well I'm just not sure how much sense that makes???

If your not using it,,, why change it???


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## dingeryote (May 2, 2012)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I have heard not to use synthetic if an engine sits for long periods because it does not 'stick' to the internal parts as well. Anyone ever heard that reasoning? Do you think there is anything to it? I use synthetic and change often, based on calendar time not so much run time. I also pull my splitter and conveyor engines and change oil on the bench. To do otherwise is a pain in the butt.



Sandhill,

Synth actually has the advantage in film strength and therefore "Cling", as well as initial flow at start up cold.

Motor Oil 104 - Bob is the Oil Guy

" As it turns out synthetic oils do cling to parts better as they have higher film strength than mineral oils. Synthetics are thinner overall. They have greater slipperiness. Yet they stick better to engine parts. Again, this concept is the opposite of normal thinking."

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## ancy (May 2, 2012)

How many of you run synthetic in your saw mix? Wouldn't the same be true in this case?


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## Steve NW WI (May 3, 2012)

Spidey, now I see why you climb metallic sticks for a living instead of growing corn like everyone else in your state. You'd go broke changing oil in equipment that measures gallons between the full and add marks, not to mention by the time you got it all changed from winter to spring oil, it'd be time to put the summer oil in!

oke:

(Did anyone ever notice that pokin fun at anal people only makes them more anal?)


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## Whitespider (May 3, 2012)

AIM said:


> *Well I'm just not sure how much sense that makes???
> If your not using it,,, why change it???*



Actually it makes a lot of sense if ya’ think about it.
First I didn’t say I was “not using it”, I said “not using much at all.”

The splitter is one of those pieces of equipment with a small engine that I use year ‘round… although not heavy during mid-summer and mid-winter. So here’s how it works;
Just before heavy fall usage time, sometime around Labor Day (one of the main oil change times for all my small engines), I change oil with 5w30.
After heavy fall use, usually sometime around Thanksgiving I change again (I don’t like to leave dirty oil in something that will be sitting, its acidic)… but knowing I’ll be using it some during the coldest months I use 5w20.
Around the first day of spring/daylight savings time in March, just before heavy spring usage, I dump that oil from winter (running and stopping during the coldest times causes condensation and heavy contamination) and replace it with 5w30. Sure, I probably haven’t used it that much over mid-winter, but when I did it was when the oil is most likely to be contaminated… and I don’t want 20 weight oil in it during warmer weather/heavy use.
After heavy spring use, just before the really hot weather, sometime around Memorial Day (the other main oil change time for all my small engines) I’ll change again using 10w30… I wouldn’t have to use 10w30, but that’s what I’m putting in all the summer equipment at the time. I don’t use the splitter a lot during the heat of summer, but when I do it does get HOT, and then sits, and then get hot, and then sits…
And now we’re back to Labor Day, ain’t we?




Steve NW WI said:


> * You'd go broke changing oil in equipment that measures gallons between the full and add marks…*


LOL… I know ya’ was just pokin’ fun Steve, but those ain’t the type engines we’re talkin’ about. They’re multi-cylinder, pressure lubed, filtered and usually just single-season usage. Apples to oranges…


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## avalancher (May 3, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Spidey, now I see why you climb metallic sticks for a living instead of growing corn like everyone else in your state. You'd go broke changing oil in equipment that measures gallons between the full and add marks, not to mention by the time you got it all changed from winter to spring oil, it'd be time to put the summer oil in!
> 
> oke:
> 
> (Did anyone ever notice that pokin fun at anal people only makes them more anal?)



You bring up a very valid point there, and something that cant be overlooked. When the cost of changing the oil is very high because of the sheer volume, its often more expensive to change the oil as often as you can rather than stretching it out. I know dang well if it cost me $200 to change the oil because I had to dump a drum into it, I would change my tune.But when you are talking a $2 quart for a small engine and five minutes of time, I will stick to frequent oil changes.

Guy just has to use some common sense here.


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## Whitespider (May 3, 2012)

ancy said:


> *How many of you run synthetic in your saw mix? Wouldn't the same be true in this case?*



I don't use synthetic two-cycle oil either, but my thinkin' is that ain't the same thing. Two-cycle oil doesn't sit in a crankcase where it can be contaminated... basically it's "one-time-use" only. There my be advantages to synthetic two-cycle oil, but I've always used the regular Stihl stuff in the orange bottle and never had any problems. I'll stick with it because my thinkin' is... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!" At the same time plenty of guys have always used the synthetic and they don't have problems either, they're thinkin' the same as me... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!" <shrug>


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## hardpan (May 3, 2012)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I have heard not to use synthetic if an engine sits for long periods because it does not 'stick' to the internal parts as well. Anyone ever heard that reasoning? Do you think there is anything to it? I use synthetic and change often, based on calendar time not so much run time. I also pull my splitter and conveyor engines and change oil on the bench. To do otherwise is a pain in the butt.



That was a concern with those big, expensive gear boxes I mentioned earlier. We were taught that the synthetic oil coating on the internal parts would not last as long as with mineral oils so once a month we manually turned the shafts of the spare gear boxes to "recoat" the gears.


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## Iska3 (May 3, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Well now, finally some common sense thinking....
> 
> I'd rep ya' avalancher but it's tellin' me I gotta' spread it around first.
> 
> *Don't have an hour meter on it, but I'm bettin' my splitter (that's over 30 years old) gets the oil changed more often than 15 hours of run time... 'cause I change it by date, even if I'm not using much at all!!!*



Spider, This post is funny. Sometimes I think you might spread a lot around but you ain't as dumb as I look.

*"cause I change it by date, even if I'm not using much at all"* There is a lot of truth to this statement... but I'm too old to see that one beat to death.. 

Like avalancher said... This topic is getting out of hand. The OP asked about Syth Oil in his log splitter. Soon, I read where people had nothing but a screen as a filter in their airplane and those engines we ok. My first plane was a Cessna 150 and it has a screen as stated but what was stated is Cessna recommended that we change our oil every 25 hours of run time or if it sat for so many months. They also had a recommended time for a MOH and a TOH. Because I used a 50/50 blend and changed the oil at the recommended intervals’ my TOH and the MOH was extended but in no way would I ever have thought of flying 50 hours with all that shavings in my oil. 

The owners manual for our CRV claims that we do not need to change the oil for 9,000 miles. The warning light is set at 9,000 miles to remind us to change the oil. But! If you read the fine print, it also states that some driving conditions may very and require a more frequent change. Dirt Roads, Short Tirps, Cold Weather Starts, Long Idles, Over Heating, Cheap Air and Oil Filters and even storage for long periods will all affect the condition of the oil. I use Syth oil in the CRV but we take a lot of short trips and also drive on a lot of dirt roads. My oil will be black and I know that the filter will not catch everything so I change the oil at 3,000 miles. The key is “Conditions Dictate”

We now send in oil samples at different intervals so we know what the engine on this plane is doing. The samples tell us next to nothing about the oil, it tells us about the metals more than anything. It’s true that Syth Oil show less wear in the way of engine materials and contaminates so in reality the engine life is extended but an airplane is not some little engine without an oil filter. A plane is in the air and not on many dirt roads. Syth oil has additives that allow the oil to stick to the metals and helps with a fresh engine start. It’s thinner and the engine will turn over faster in cold weather. Again, the key is filter... If this had a screen for a filter it would be changed a lot sooner. 

The manufacture recommends 0W-50 Syth. Oil in our ATV’s They also recommend an oil change every 100 hours under normal driving conditions. Their oil is something like 10.00 to 14.00 per qt. We use Mobile #1 0W-40 because we use one of the ATV during the winter as a plow and the oil collect a lot of moisture so I’ll change the oil every 50 to 75 hours. In the summer and fall, we drive through a lot of swamps and even though we use good air filters and oil filters, stuff gets in to the oil so we might change it before the 100 hours. Again… Conditions Dictate.. 

The 455 JD mows through a lot on the farm. Dirt and dust from the old grass gets in to the oil and it turns black. JD recommends an oil change every 25 hours with their Turf Guard oil. We use Mobile 1 but because the oil is black, we might change it in 20 hours and if it looks good we might go 40 hours. Conditions Dictate. 

There is no doubt in my mind that a 50/50 blend or a 100% Syth oil is a better oil for moving parts like a gear box or in our case the screw type air compressor but keep in mind that they are not engines or in the Ops case a small engine without an oil filter.. (and a very light air filter) Granted Syth oil is better for that engine but because Conditions Dictate (like no oil filter to collect the contaminates) we still need to change the oil at the recommended intervals. 

If maintained properly, the life expectancy of a small engine is something like 2,000 hours. Because the engine does not have an oil filter, most manufactures recommend an oil change every 25 to 50 hours. I use Syth oil in my splitter. Our Fleet store ran a special so I picked up Mobile 1 5W-40 for $5.97 per qt. The 5-30 was $4.96 per qt. If I run my splitter for 50 hours per year and change my oil two times per year it will cost me $11.94 for Syth or $9.92 for reg oil. If I use the reg oil I save $3.02 Heck! On a good night, I can spill more than that in beer. I’m 67 years old; if I only spilt for 50 hours per year, that splitter will last me 40 years. In 8 years I’ll be 75 yrs old and looking for something with an electric start and won’t need to worry about that engine. In 18 years I’ll be 85 and by then my kidneys will be shot from drinking all that beer, I’ll need to stop drinking and I can afford to buy all of my wood pre-cut and delivered from MNGuns or Ted. 

Spider is talking about Non-Filtered Small Engines and many times they could be running in adverse conditions and may sit for several months. The best thing you could do for any small non filtered engine that sits for several months after prolong periods of use is change the oil. Fresh oil is one of the best things you can do for any small engine without a filter and the other thing you can do for them is to run it. If we were talking about some truck, boat or an engine with a good filter on it, that’s a different story. 

Angelo: How many hours would you run an older continental or a Lycomings with a screen in it as a filter before you change the oil? Would you run the same engine longer when using Syth oil? You must know about CamGuard by ASL. If you had CamGuard added to the oil on the same engine with a screen as a filer, would you change the oil at the same hours or would you run it longer?  

I use Syth Oil in most of our small engines because they are easier to start in cold weather, the oil does help dissipate the heat and it has a better flow rate in colder temps and knowing what I know, it might even help extend the life of the engine. But like Spider said, The engine does not have a filter so conditions and down time dictates when I change the oil. 

The real answer for the OP should be…. Syth Oil has many benefits and may extend the life of your engine but because your engine does not have a good oil and air filter, you still need to change the oil at the same intervals as you regular oil to remove all the impurities in the oil. 

If you want to throw another monkey in to this. Google camguard by ASL


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## Preston (May 3, 2012)

The main thing syn oil does is carry deposits in suspension till it's changed. Mineral oil gets old and drop carbon and almost a mud like stuff around in the engine. Synthetic oil does not. Another thing I like a syn oil is dry starts. I've found mineral oil does not "hold" to a moving part like the "other" oil does in a static postition. That's just me and I ain't no hexpert at all.:msp_sleep:


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