# Deadbeat customers...



## gorman (May 17, 2005)

How do you deal with customers that feel they don't need to pay you what you aggreed on? I way underbid a takedown operation on a huge norway maple and the older couple who hired me are being rather shadey about paying me. I have to buy a new bar to take the trunk segment down and for some reason I feel that they're waiting for me to finish to stiff me.


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## MasterBlaster (May 17, 2005)

http://***************/treehouse/images/smiles/XXbazooka.gif


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## NickfromWI (May 17, 2005)

Gorman, if you agreed on the price, you gotta do the work. It's not their fault you need a new bar.

What do you mean you think they are waiting to stiff you?

love
nick


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## tophopper (May 17, 2005)

How can you say that if you havent finished? 
Step1 you agree on price
Step2 you provide the work as proposed
Step3 you collect the payment

Are you trying to collect prior to completion?


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## kf_tree (May 17, 2005)

on tree work i never collect a deposit or try to collect before completion. if i price the job seperately tree and stump i'll collect on the tree and collect on the stump when it is done. certain customers i know will not pay for 30-60 days all acceptable before hand. sometimes i even set up payment plans with customers that had a dead tree that "had" to come down.

but my payment policy was simple......if in the end i got stiffed i returned the tree 3x on their front lawn. i once had a contarctor stiff me on land clearing so i filled his foundation with chips.  

i think i only returned 3 tree's........people usually don't argue with people with chain saws.

finish the job first..............what makes you think they are trying to stiff you?


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## treeseer (May 17, 2005)

I had a couple pay me $68. for a $225 job; they said I took too long and didn't clean up in a timely fashion. I told them the $68 did not even cover my labor, so if we could not meet in the middle I'd come by to repossess the soil and mulch I spread. Come Friday I may have to. What a pain.

Gorman, flush that stump and collect on the spot. Shame on you for underbidding, but what reason is there to imagine they're planning to stiff you? I've underbid many times; some customers will liten to your plight and help you out, if you lay out the whole story for them. But of course they don't have to give you more than the agreed price.


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## jason j ladue (May 17, 2005)

if you under bid, you pretty much have to just grin and bear it. pretty hard to maintain professionalism while asking for more $ than was previously agreed upon.


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## RedlineIt (May 17, 2005)

gorman,

When you go to the saw-shop to pick up that new bar to finish the job, and they hand you a bar without a tip, and tell you "That'll be $57.95, but we gotta get a new tip to finish the sale.", I'm betting you'll make sounds that are more than just cagey regarding payment.

Finish your underbid job, and tell us how it goes. 


RedlineIt


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## NickfromWI (May 17, 2005)

Guy, they paid you less because it took too long? What are you. McDonald's Drive Thru Tree Service?

Take the mulch back and tell them their trees are ugly anyways!

Gorman, I agree with Redline- tell us how it goes!

love
nick


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## Dadatwins (May 17, 2005)

Welcome to the 'I screwed up the bid club' it is not an exclusive club, everyone in the biz has done it at least once. Finish the job, clean up nicely and then ask for your money unless you made prepayment arrangement prior to starting. Learn from your error and move on. 

Guy, picking up mulch and soil after spreading sounds like no fun at all,  maybe stop by a seed store and pick up some nice dandelion and chickweed and maybe next trip up to Richmond pick up some nice virginia creeper to add to that landscape. Hope it works out.


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## Stumper (May 17, 2005)

Guy, Just a heads-up. It is possible to get into trouble for repossessing landscape material. The law sometimes views those things as part of the real property now. What you can do is place a lien on the property. i havfe never done so. I have never been stiffed for more than $100.It wasn't worth my time to pursue it after several phone calls. The next logical step was to beat them half to death and I don't want the trouble for less than $100.


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## clearance (May 17, 2005)

If you get ripped off really bad by reprehensible people, you can get a big water tank in the back of your pickup, with an electric pump, filled with pesticide and water. Drive by and hose down their yard, a while later cruise by and say "nice garden".


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## Lumberjack (May 17, 2005)

Water ballons that are carefully filled with roundup or other herbicide have the same effect, and is alot faster. 

If a person used salt you could write something in the yard, such as the ammount owed.....


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## Crazy Canuck (May 18, 2005)

NickfromWI said:


> Guy, they paid you less because it took too long? What are you. McDonald's Drive Thru Tree Service?



No kidding. I've never had someone try to pay me less because I took too long. Maybe because I got it finished a lot faster than they pictured and feel that the price is too high for the time put in. Theres got to be more to the story....


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## hobby climber (May 18, 2005)

Sure it sucks to get ripped off but you haven't had that happen to you yet until you are finished the job! If you ever do get stiffed by a customer don't sweat it... you can always write it off at tax time. No big deal,  . HC


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## Koa Man (May 18, 2005)

hobby climber said:


> If you ever do get stiffed by a customer don't sweat it... you can always write it off at tax time. No big deal,  . HC



Not in the USA, you can't. You cannot write off labor you did. You could write off labor you paid, but you write that off anyway, whether you collected or not. If a customer tried to stiff me, I would collect somehow. I was going to list several ways to get even, but I might get into trouble, so I suggest buying George Hayduke's book "Get Even". I believe you can order it from Amazon.com. It is full of good ideas.


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## TimberMcPherson (May 18, 2005)

Next time you cut a pheonix palm or something equally useless, heavy and undesposable, drop it in his driveway.


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## Ekka (May 18, 2005)

There's 2 types of debtors, and only 2.

Those who cant pay for whatever genuine reason and those who wont pay.

The latter category is the worst.

If you don't get paid start asking questions which will assist you into which of the 2 categories they fall.

Cant pay, get what you can plus drip feed, pressure relatives to pay or cust to hock gear etc.

Wont pay, be pleasant, smile, appeal to their conscience if that doesn't work, be nice smile walk away ... 

...Behind the scenes you go in hard, get your evidence ready, case prepared, small debts court lined up and return with the summons. You go in real hard, for the jugular, and either they pay you on the spot or you file that document and destroy their credit rating ... most of the hard core will pay at this point.

PS: I was a debt collector for 7 years.


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## Thor's Hammer (May 18, 2005)

Nice one Ekka, had to do that a few times myself.
Have been cought out a few times by the 'that was a lot quicker than I thought you'd be' brigade, really hacks me off. I tell them their paying for skill, not time.


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## vharrison2 (May 18, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> http://***************/treehouse/images/smiles/XXbazooka.gif



lol


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## tophopper (May 18, 2005)

I cant believe some of the things you guys claim you will do to collect a debt.
Reacting in a destructive, vengence seeking way, is not how to do business. 
Vandalizing, come on, grow up. Your business people act like it.

If someone dumped chips or logs in my front yard(regardless if I stiffed em on payment) they would be back to clean things up very quick like. Illegal dumping carries some heavy fines. PLus Id get ya for the crack in my cement driveway when you illegally dumped that Pheonix log. Then youd owe me a new driveway too


Why not just meet outside the school at the rock, and duke it out, like mature teenagers?


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## Jumper (May 18, 2005)

I recommend the small claims court as the route to go. Arrived armed with the facts, and sue for the full amount plus the time you spent trying to collect, preparing your case, the cost of the claim filing etc. This really got the attention of an ex boss who decided to take over six months to pay $300+ he clearly owed me. One of the so called "more respected" Arborists in the metro Ottawa area-ha! (he fell into category 2 above). Suddenly a cheque appeared for the amount, and I phoned him back and said unless he paid me another $75 for the court costs involved and already paid, I would take him to court anyways, as sending me the $300+ clearly indicated he owed me the money. I got the $75 and the whole matter was a done deal.


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## YUKON 659 (May 18, 2005)

Not to take this thread off topic but, would a verbal agreement (payment) between you and the customer hold up in small claims court?

Jeff


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## Koa Man (May 18, 2005)

Small claims court is a lot of BS. I went to small claims court because a tenant on a rental property owed me about $1800. I paid a sheriff to issue a subpoena, went to court, which the tenant didn't even bother to show up, was awarded the full amount I filed for, and was still unable to collect. Called the small claims court clerk and was told they do not have the power to enforce a judgment, I would need to go to district court, but my claim was too small to be handled there. Bottom line is SC court is a sham, don't waste your time and money. Handle it yourself, unprofessional you say, I don't care. I consider someone who agreed to pay for X amount of work and then tries to stiff me, equal to a mugger trying to steal my money and taking food out of my kids mouth and a roof over their head.


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## Stumper (May 18, 2005)

*Joe the Treespader's Search for Justice*

Not so long ago in a state not too far away, there lived a man named Joe. Joe was a typical hardworking American entrepreneur. He saw a need for a service in his region and invested a large ammount of money in some specialized equipment and went into business. In an attempt to recover the cost of his equipment and earn a living for his family Joe advertised his services and sought high and low for clients for whom he could transplant trees. Joe landed a contract for a large project away from his hometown. Off went Joe to live in a hotel for a few days and work long hours. While he was working on his project a local citizen stopped by and inquired about his services. Mr Citizen had a young Birch tree at his current home that he was hoping could be moved to the new house he had purchased before he sold the house he was moving out of. Joe looked a the tree and the new location and said that he could do the job for $90. Mr. Citizen said to please do it. Joe took a short break from his big project and moved the Birch tree. After the job was completed he sought out Mr.Citizen for payment. Mr Citizen looked very thoughtful, then mused out loud, " You know, that was my tree all along and it is planted on my property now, I don't think I'll pay you." Joe was outraged and flabbergasted. What could he do? If he spaded the tree out again he could be prosecuted for theft. It certainly was going to cost too much to come back to this town to pursue a court case for $90. The evil Mr. Citizen knew that he had Joe in a losing situation. 
All day Joe worked in the hot sun on his big project and stewed over the injustice of Mr. Citizen and the conundrum of seemingly unobtainable justice. That evening Joe sharpened his trusty chainsaw and made sure it was running well. About 11:00 PM Joe started his saw outside of town and set it idling into his truck. He drove down the street where Mr C's new home was located and coasted his pick-up to the curb. Joe leapt from the truck with his idling chainsaw in hand and sprinted across the yard. He revved the saw and swung it to meet the trunk of the hapless Birch. As the tree toppled Joe raced back to his pick-up and smoothly accelerated away. 
The next day the Sherriff came to see Joe at his Hotel room. Joe listened in silence as the Sherriff detailed a horrible act of vandalism committed against Mr.Citizen's Birch tree. Joe looked the Sherriff in the eye and said "You know I had a feeling that something bad might happen to that tree. When Mr. Citizen refused to pay me for moving that tree I just had a feeling that something bad might happen." The Sherriff blustered and fussed "Now see here, Mr. C is an important man around here...." Joe Looked the Sherriff In the eye again and said "Sherrif, If you have some evidence that I've done something wrong, you'll have to do something about it but I don't have anything more to say." The sherriff scatched his head and left and Joe finished his big project, got paid for it and went back home to create a successful tree moving business.. 
Two wrongs don't make one right but a wrong shouldn't stand uncorrected. At best revenge is bittersweet-but, perhaps, sometimes, it is more satisfying that doing nothing. :blob5:


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## darkstar (May 18, 2005)

love that story 5 stars ....dark


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## clearance (May 18, 2005)

Great one Stumper. It's not about the money anymore, it's about revenge, plain and simple. Some people need to be taught a lesson, try to be discreet, don't tell anyone.


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## juststumps (May 18, 2005)

not getting paid for being slow,,, how about,,, not getting paid for being to fast?? we did a job,, bid at 12k last summer.... climber,,, 2 groundies,, truck,, chipper,, grinder,,,complete job.. figured on 8 days....12 100' plus pin oaks.....all rope work...

we showed up with,,3 climbers,,,6 groundies,,,machine operator,,3 trucks,, 2 chippers,,grinder,,and a skid loader...got it done in 2 days....

guy was pissed because he had to shell out the money in just 2 days,, he didn't want to pay!!!!

he paided after a call from the lawyer!!!!

if you don't have a freind that is a lawyer,,, file a lien,,, they will never sell the house,,until its paid off....


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## Stumper (May 18, 2005)

It is simply amazing that some people are happy with the price until they realize that it was easier for you than they imagined.  I make an analogy to a dental visit for a tooth extraction-An extraction costs $90 .Would you prefer that your Dentist gross $9 per hour or $9 per minute. -That clicks with some and they smile and say "It was worth it so the quicker the better." Others are hopeless. 
While we are on this subject lets not forget all those great customers-The ones that say "Wow, that was fast! It sure helps to have the right tools and know what you are doing! I'll recommend you to all my friends." Then they smile and hand you a check with a tip above and beyond the agreed upon price.


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## Koa Man (May 19, 2005)

juststumps said:


> if you don't have a freind that is a lawyer,,, file a lien,,, they will never sell the house,,until its paid off....



Did you check to see if you could actually file a lien on someone's property for tree work in your state? I wanted to file a lien on the neighbor of my customer who wanted a few branches cut. I told him $80 and he said OK. I left an invoice and after 4 weeks I sent him another. Still no payment. I thought I'll just file a lien and let him be surprised when he wanted to do anything with the house. The surprise was on me. Even though I was a licensed contractor, liens cannot be filed for tree work because that is not considered a property improvement. I had to go to his house and taped a note that said you better pay up or I will need to return your tree debris plus interest. Got the check 2 days later. I have come to the conclusion that you will need to handle unpaid tree work on your own. Don't count on the court system to help you. Many wonderful products out there to help you, Liquid Scratch, Sonic Nausea, powders that can be sprinkled on things and will stain it purple when it gets wet, and a dozen more. I detest people that do not pay their debts and people that steal. (same thing)


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## BlackSmith (May 19, 2005)

I've always found that justice serves those that serve themselves...


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## Treeman14 (May 19, 2005)

Gee, why won't people treat us like professionals? Why do tree trimmers have a bad reputation? Duh!!! Listen to yourselves.


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## Koa Man (May 20, 2005)

Tree companies generally do not have a bad rep where I live.


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## jason j ladue (May 20, 2005)

am i the only one to notice the the guy who started this thread has only posted once..three pages later.


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## Lumberjack (May 20, 2005)

Think we scared him.


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## Ekka (May 21, 2005)

Na ... he got his money.


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## iain (May 21, 2005)

get them to sign a job acceptance terms of payment and cost agreed befofe you do any work and the same with any add ons , pre print one and carry it with you in your vehicle a signed document is a contract they wont have a leg to stand on 
we do it


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## Yellowdog (Dec 3, 2006)

tophopper said:


> Why not just meet outside the school at the rock, and duke it out, like mature teenagers?



A good dry-humpin' usually takes the fight right out of 'em! :biggrinbounce2:


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## treesquirrel (Jan 24, 2007)

kf_tree said:


> on tree work i never collect a deposit or try to collect before completion. if i price the job seperately tree and stump i'll collect on the tree and collect on the stump when it is done. certain customers i know will not pay for 30-60 days all acceptable before hand. sometimes i even set up payment plans with customers that had a dead tree that "had" to come down.
> 
> but my payment policy was simple......if in the end i got stiffed i returned the tree 3x on their front lawn. i once had a contarctor stiff me on land clearing so i filled his foundation with chips.
> 
> ...



Your the best dude! I love your style......

Of course the water ballons filled with roundup sounds really neat also.


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## Timberhauler (Jan 24, 2007)

I've been stiffed a few times as well.During my second year in the business full time,I did a job for a guy who lived in this high end neighborhood.Every house in this subdivision costs 1 million plus.It was mid-December,and it was extremely slow that year,to top things off,my wife wasn't working either and I had two kids at the time to buy Christmas for.I bid this job cheap to try and be sure to close the deal,I ended up agreeing to do it for $3000.00.I thought it was going to be alot worse that it actually was,I was planning at least three days to get it done,but I finished it in two,and I even took out two extra trees at no cost to hopefully encourage this jack-ass to pass my name along.Once I was finished,I even payed a lawn service to replace a small patch of sod that was damaged by a falling trunk.I handed him the bill,and he said he would have to write me a check the next morning because his checkbook was at his office,so the next morning,I could not get him to answer his phone....I was broke at this point,I could hardly even afford the gas to drive to his house again.I finally got him on the phone later that afternoon,and again he said to just come to his office and he would have me a check.Of course when I went to his office that morning he wasn't there,would not answer his cell phone,and he wasn't at his house either.To make a long story short,I finished the job on 12/20,he agreed to pay me as soon as I was finished.He went out of town the day after Christmas,and I did not get paid until January 2.Had I not had that contract,I am sure that he would not have paid me a dime.Luckily I had another job come up just as big or I would not have even been able to buy my kids their Christmas presents or pay my bills that month.


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## derbyguy_78 (Jan 24, 2007)

*hmmmmmmmmmmmm.*

lmao


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