# New wildcat rifle in the house.



## ft. churchill (Nov 24, 2012)

What'cha guys think. I acquired a new rifle yesterday for free. Our family friend gave me a custom rifle for free, I have to do a trigger job on a Ruger 10/22 in return "as a favor"..... Not much payment for such a fine rifle. It's a custom Remmy 700 action, blueprinted and mated to a Lilja 26" barrel w/ a varmit muzzle brake. He removed the Mcmillam stock and timney trigger and threw on a Remmy vtr stock and trigger group. Now here's the wildcat part. It's a 25/300WSM caliber, with 50 loaded rounds, and 50 .300 wsm pieces of brass for forming into cases for it as well as the full length dies for reloading it. My friend had this rifle built up in 2003, (according to the tag on the handloads that the gunsmith loaded up to test the rifle with.) He's had the rifle all of these years and never done anything with it as the short magnums have fallen out of favor with him. From what little I can find on this cartridge it should be hotter than a 25-06. Looks like I'm buying a new scope for Christmas.


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## benp (Nov 24, 2012)

The 25/06 is one of the best all around versatile lower 48 calibers imo... From vermin to elk, it's there. 

A 25/06 on crack?!?!?!!?....Now....that's just downright naughty.

Post pictures if you can. 

Good luck and keep us posted. I know the 25 wssm can be finicky, hopefully the longer case wont be as bad. :msp_thumbup:


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## Genius. (Nov 24, 2012)

I'd be looking for a new barrel too...

It sounds like a barrel eating round, but it does sound bad ass though


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## dingeryote (Nov 25, 2012)

Talk about oversquare! 

It'll definately move the 6mm pills if you get enough Kingsford briquettes under 'em.
4831SSC and a LOOOONG drop tube is probably in order. 

Like Genius mentioned, ya might wanna start keeping a round count and figure on taking a couple turns off the tube shortly. Bieng that oversquare puts a hell of whoopin' on the leade.
Data I looked at had that thing pushing 80 grainers at around 3600fps. The Local Woodchucks ain't gonna like that too much.:msp_wink:
Congrats on the new stick!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## ft. churchill (Nov 25, 2012)

I took a couple of photos today for a buddy of mine, I download it to the computer and post them up tomorrow. Yeah, I have all the fears of a barrel burner also, but what the heck, I've run hot chevys on the streets as well, and all of us here push chainsaws way further than the engineers intended. When the rat motor quit runnin' as strong, you just overhaul it. Still I've found my best accuracy comes at 90% of what a cartridge will do, and if I go reasonable on it, should hold up for quite a long time. I'm pushing a 75 grain bullet from my 6mm at 3350, this 25/300 wsm should move along at 3700 to 3800 with a 75 grain varmint load. That ought to knock a coyote backwards in time. I hope to push a 100 grain hunting load at 3300 to 3400 both of these should be obtainable with the longer barrel and 4350 or slower powder. ( I was thinking of H 4831 or H 1000 ). I have heard the horror stories of the wssm calibers of being barrel burners and finicky pressure wise. Still its like havin' a blower sticking out of the hood of your car, we'd all secretly love to have to deal with its problems, and I'm into it for nothing but my time and effort.


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## Genius. (Nov 25, 2012)

ft. churchill said:


> . Still its like havin' a blower sticking out of the hood of your car, we'd all secretly love to have to deal with its problems, and I'm into it for nothing but my time and effort.




I ain't going to lie, I want one, screw it if you are doing good to get 1000 rounds down range, it would be a blast shooting


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## Jim Timber (Nov 25, 2012)

Try a retumbo load. Nice slow heave to start, but still makes the velocity before the bullet leaves the barrel.

I've got a .25-06 retumbo load for 120gr bullets that's about half the kick of a .30-30, but still hits 2950 fps.

And if ya don't like it, you can always change barrels. 700 action for cheap is still a good thing.


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## esshup (Nov 25, 2012)

Nice! Any idea what twist rate & how many lands/grooves?

When Wildcat bullets was still up in Canada, they made .25 cal rebated boattail bullets up to 152 grains.:msp_ohmy:

I shoot their 130's out of my .257 Wby pushed by H-1000, but when they're gone, they're gone.

My 7mm will probably have about the same barrel life as yours since I'm pushing a 175g 7mm bullet at 3490 fps. :msp_biggrin:


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## ft. churchill (Nov 25, 2012)

Spent my morning cleaning out the garage and my reloading bench (which chainsaws had taken over). Got some photos of the new blaster.View attachment 264028
View attachment 264029
View attachment 264030



Sorry but I just can not get the embed to work.


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## B Harrison (Nov 25, 2012)

I would try the 117 grain boat tailed bullets from sierra.
You should be able to get 3100 fps and keep the bullet stable enough for long range accuracy.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 15, 2012)

Nice rifle. 25 caliber is my favorite for all around use. I have a 250 Ackley improved that sees more use than anything else I own. Just a couple things if you are new to Wildcatting, you want to get familiar with case neck annealing, and case neck turning. Check out Sinclair, they have top notch equipment. I load varmint rounds with fresh brass and use a lighter charge to fire form. After you fire form your best bet is just to neck size and trim, then that once fired brass is primo. Usually on a twice fired case I will use the FL die and just barely kiss the shoulders until it chambers properly, no need to drop the die all the way down and stretch out your brass. A comparator makes it nice and easy to work up new loads with different bullets, once you get your seating depth set on one bullet, you can easily switch and keep your seating depth consistent even though the OAL will vary. 25/300 is finnicky about seating, don't get carried away with the chamfer. I would be leary about the 50 loaded rounds unless you truly trust that your friend is super picky about his work, even then I would probably pull them and start over, but thats just me. Don't get trigger happy at the range! You could easily smoke it in one sitting, give it plenty of time to cool between shots and don't go more than 5 or 6 shots without cleaning, it will leave some serious copper deposits. Hope some of this helps, good luck and happy wildcatting!!


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## Genius. (Dec 15, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> Nice rifle. 25 caliber is my favorite for all around use. I have a 250 Ackley improved that sees more use than anything else I own. Just a couple things if you are new to Wildcatting, you want to get familiar with case neck annealing, and case neck turning. Check out Sinclair, they have top notch equipment. I load varmint rounds with fresh brass and use a lighter charge to fire form. After you fire form your best bet is just to neck size and trim, then that once fired brass is primo. Usually on a twice fired case I will use the FL die and just barely kiss the shoulders until it chambers properly, no need to drop the die all the way down and stretch out your brass. A comparator makes it nice and easy to work up new loads with different bullets, once you get your seating depth set on one bullet, you can easily switch and keep your seating depth consistent even though the OAL will vary. 25/300 is finnicky about seating, don't get carried away with the chamfer. I would be leary about the 50 loaded rounds unless you truly trust that your friend is super picky about his work, even then I would probably pull them and start over, but thats just me. Don't get trigger happy at the range! You could easily smoke it in one sitting, give it plenty of time to cool between shots and don't go more than 5 or 6 shots without cleaning, it will leave some serious copper deposits. Hope some of this helps, good luck and happy wildcatting!!



tl;dr

"I have a potty mouth"


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## jdc123 (Dec 15, 2012)

My favorite kind of gun; fast, exotic, and free. Some like their women like that also.


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## Genius. (Dec 15, 2012)

jdc123 said:


> fast, exotic, and free. Some like their women like that also.



I don't know about the free part....


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## bucknfeller (Dec 16, 2012)

Genius. said:


> tl;dr
> 
> "I have a potty mouth"



BS!! You know you read it! "I have a potty mouth" with a dead cat and some wiggly bacon


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## little possum (Dec 17, 2012)

If anybody cares to explain the .25WSSM downfalls, or just wants to PM me, I would appreciate it.. 

Nice looking rifle!


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## TonyRumore (Dec 18, 2012)

If it's a hunting rifle, talking about throat errosion is ridiculous. Just how many rounds do you think you're going to shoot at game? Even sighting the thing in doesn't take many rounds.

If you're going to use it for varmints......well, that's a completely different story. A buddy of mine and I fired 5,000 rounds of .20 Tactical in 3 days, blasting prairie dogs in South Dakota. I had to replace my barrel when I got home. The target shown is the "before" group.

Tony


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## Genius. (Dec 18, 2012)

Some day I want to have enough rounds down range to have ruined a barrel


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## psuiewalsh (Dec 18, 2012)

TonyRumore said:


> If it's a hunting rifle, talking about throat errosion is ridiculous. Just how many rounds do you think you're going to shoot at game? Even sighting the thing in doesn't take many rounds.
> 
> If you're going to use it for varmints......well, that's a completely different story. A buddy of mine and I fired 5,000 rounds of .20 Tactical in 3 days, blasting prairie dogs in South Dakota. I had to replace my barrel when I got home. The target shown is the "before" group.
> 
> Tony



Was that in 3 round bursts or full AUTO:yourock::yourock::yourock:


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## ft. churchill (Jan 2, 2013)

All right here we go, Ili' possum, mine's a 25/300 wsm wildcat not the factory wssm. The wssm series of cartridges has a reputation of being barrel burners and poor feeding characteristics. I'm sure mine will be hard on barrels as well. I'm also having feeding problems from the magazine that I have not solved yet.
Tony, that is a mighty fine shooting AR, and as far as looks, form follows function. I'd be proud of hefting that one afield on one of my 'yote expeditions. Yes this rifle of mine will see hunting/predator action with very little sustained firing of long strings.


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## ft. churchill (Jan 2, 2013)

Took that rifle out and did a sight in and started the barrel break in process. My bore sighting from the kitchen table works well. The first shot was at the right height, but 3 1/4" to the right. Second shot after I moved the scope over was dead on vertical, but high. Pressure was high on that shot as well. Next two shots grouped at 1/2" center to center. Called it quits as the sun was about to set, the crono had quit registering due to the low sun angle, and that the temp was about 18 degrees. I'm sure the rifle will due better as I bench is wiggly, and I forgot my chair to sit on, had to kneel in the snow. I'm gettin' some good speed. 3574 fps is more that a 257 wetherby mag will put out with the same 100 grain bullet. I'm loaded with 63 grains of IMR 4831. It's too much in my opinion (and that's all you got on a wildcat is opinions). I'm getting high pressure signs. The gunsmith that built the gun loaded these up according to some computer program and it's too hot. I'm getting some cratering around the firing pin mark, and some flattening of the primer on all four of my shots. Not terrible high pressure signs but the beginning signs of too much pressure. Alot of power fouling as well. I'm cleaning the barrel after each shot with a copper cleaner to break in the barrel. Now here's the scary one. The second shot (the one that went high) caused the neck of the case to split completely in two places all the way thru and down to the start of the shoulder. I've only seen that on cases that have been reloaded alot, not on first firings. I know it could be due to the forming process, it does not look like they were annealed. I'm going to take it as a sign of high pressure. Later today I'm pulling all of the bullets, emptying out the power, and reducing the charge to 62 grains. I don't need to have the fastest rifle this side of a laser beam, and most rifles shoot best at 90%-95% of their top speed. Chime in, watcha think?


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## ShoerFast (Jan 8, 2013)

ft. churchill said:


> Took that rifle out and did a sight in and started the barrel break in process. My bore sighting from the kitchen table works well. The first shot was at the right height, but 3 1/4" to the right. Second shot after I moved the scope over was dead on vertical, but high. Pressure was high on that shot as well. Next two shots grouped at 1/2" center to center. Called it quits as the sun was about to set, the crono had quit registering due to the low sun angle, and that the temp was about 18 degrees. I'm sure the rifle will due better as I bench is wiggly, and I forgot my chair to sit on, had to kneel in the snow. I'm gettin' some good speed. 3574 fps is more that a 257 wetherby mag will put out with the same 100 grain bullet. I'm loaded with 63 grains of IMR 4831. It's too much in my opinion (and that's all you got on a wildcat is opinions). I'm getting high pressure signs. The gunsmith that built the gun loaded these up according to some computer program and it's too hot. I'm getting some cratering around the firing pin mark, and some flattening of the primer on all four of my shots. Not terrible high pressure signs but the beginning signs of too much pressure. Alot of power fouling as well. I'm cleaning the barrel after each shot with a copper cleaner to break in the barrel. Now here's the scary one. The second shot (the one that went high) caused the neck of the case to split completely in two places all the way thru and down to the start of the shoulder. I've only seen that on cases that have been reloaded alot, not on first firings. I know it could be due to the forming process, it does not look like they were annealed. I'm going to take it as a sign of high pressure. Later today I'm pulling all of the bullets, emptying out the power, and reducing the charge to 62 grains. I don't need to have the fastest rifle this side of a laser beam, and most rifles shoot best at 90%-95% of their top speed. Chime in, watcha think?




Some of the physics and science going on to accelerate a pill and leave the barrel while it is relatively stable is pure poetry!

While I was reading this thread, this rifle sounded like something that H-4831 ( or H-4831-sc) would ramp u with? Maybe at the same charge weights? (of course we all know to approach maxumins cautiously )

Here is an accurate chart comparing burn-rates:

Burn Rate

IMR-4831 might be right at that threshold of to fast a powder for optimum performance?

My reasoning behind H-4831-sc stems from using lighter pills in larger capacity cases.
It just seems to pressure up predictablly for me without having to have a lot of lead forcing the slower powders to pressure up.

For decades friends family and I practiced the 'load a few - shoot a few' method to perfection. We had no idea how wrong we were!
This method seem the only place to start developing OCW , I will not very working a new load/rifle . It shows more then just OCW results.

OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

After the OCW is established, play with lengths , primer and crimp pressures. There is no doubt that you will have a real tack-driver there!


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## Nitroman (Jan 29, 2013)

Don't believe anything these guys tell you, buncha armchair commando's. It will not burn out the barrel any more than any other overbore cartridge around. Check Hodgdon's website and look for yourself. .257 Weatherby is running same powder weights as .270 WSM; so you have the equivalent of a short .257 Weatherby. Start low and work up.


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## esshup (Jan 29, 2013)

Late to the game here, but it looks like it will be a sweet rifle once you get the bugs worked out.

Try a slower powder and see what happens. I'm using H-1000 in my one .257 Wby and it works pretty well. See if there's anything slower than that. Dirty bores to me mean a not clean burn, which could be the powder isn't right.

Here's my take on the split necks. Anneal the cases.

I've got a 7mm laser. It's a wildcatted .338 Lapua necked down and blown out so it fires 7mm bullets. It holds approximately 10% more powder than the parent case and is called a 7mm Allen Magnum. When the cases were first fireformed and worked, everything seemed fine. A year later, same loads were splitting at the neck/shoulder junction. Roughly 30% of the cases split. Not a good thing when you look at the cost of Lapua .338 Lapua brass, and figure in the costs in getting it wildcatted. I had all 200 rounds primed, and about 40 loaded. I deprimed them, pulled bullets, dumped powder and annealed them. I lost 1 more case in the remaining 200 rounds. I now anneal after every firing.

I'm using WC-872 in that chambering. Here's what Jeff Bartlett has to say about that powder: Original application is U.S. 20mm Vulcan ammo. A ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon H870 or AA8700 data. Ideal for .50 BMG and other large capacity magnums.

Some think it's too slow to use for my application, but I can't argue with pushing a 7mm Sierra Matchking at 3495 fps and getting 1/4 moa groups at 300 Yds with it. I have fired it at 3550 fps MV in 90°F temps, but there were slight bolt drag marks on the face of the cartridge, so I backed off 1 grain of powder. 109g of powder works great in 80°F+ Temps.

Just for the heck of it I fired it at night a few days ago while a buddy video'd it with 3 different cameras. We were both suprised at the lack of muzzle flash (it does have a brake on it). Maybe 6"-8" of flash out the sides and top of the brake. The video isn't edited yet, so take the next piece of info with a bit of skepticism. The bullet showed up in 2 of the 3 HD videos about 24" from the muzzle and we didn't use any type of lighting at all for the video. Was the bullet glowing from the friction? Was it the reflection of the muzzle flash? We don't know, all we know is that the bullet DID show up on the video in pitch black conditions Full moon, but there was exceptionally heavy cloud cover and you couldn't see to walk without a flashlight.

Barrel life on that rifle? The gunsmith said keep an eye on accuracy at the 1,000 round mark. He said when it opens up to 3/4 moa, it's time for a new tube. He guarantees 1/2 moa out to 1K on his rifles. He said that if I cannot rest my hand on the barrel right in front of the scope, I'm shooting the shots too close together and the barrel life will suffer. Accuracy gets worse after 35 rounds and it takes a couple of shot to get the consistency back after a good carbon and copper cleaning.


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