# Handsaws vs chainsaws?



## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

A while back a couple of you were bestowing upon me the virtues of trimming with only your handsaw, and leaving your 200 on the ground.
IME, the climber that trims with mostly his handsaw is also the climber that takes too long in the tree. IMO, the handsaw is for the finishing touches, NOT the complete trim.

I've seen plenty of trees that I've had to trim where I've thought "Ah, a handsaw tree." But, I STHIL allways packed my saw along.

There is no way I would climb w/o my 200. There is also no way I would tie my saw to a central leader to facilitate my climbing ability. I feel naked w/o my muscle clipped to my side.

Any thoughts?


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 25, 2003)

Everyone has their own style. For me the chainsaw gets hung from a limb until I feel the need. I don't need the extra 10 pounds or so hanging from me. Having said that, there is no right or wrong. Just personal style.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

Before I wore suspender saddles, I used to feel the weight also.


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 25, 2003)

If I am at the center part of the tree, and I see that the next limb to be worked on can be handled with a handsaw I see no need to carry the extra weight. I am presently using a Corona 13" pony saw. If and when I get a Silky there will probably be an even less need for the chainsaw. Taking to long is a BS blanket statement. Try getting though a Pin Oak that hasn't been maintained. A chainsaw gets in the way!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *Try getting though a Pin Oak that hasn't been maintained. A chainsaw gets in the way! *




No, I think the chainsaw gets in YOUR way.

My baby doesn't bother me one bit!


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *No, I think the chainsaw gets in YOUR way.
> 
> My baby doesn't bother me one bit!  *




Your right the saw does get in my way. You do your thing I will do mine. Thank you!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *Your right the saw does get in my way. You do your thing I will do mine. Thank you! *




And I'll be in Scotland before 'ya!


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## kf_tree (Oct 25, 2003)

a hand what? 

i think i saw a guy use one once. i wasn't sure what that thing was hanging from his saddle.

cleaning a pin oak out with a hand saw? wow.....you must have arms like popeye.


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## Froggy (Oct 25, 2003)

*Reply*

There's a time and place for every tool you have. There really is no right or wrong answer for your question. What ever makes a climber efficient in a tree is the way to go. BB


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## Koa Man (Oct 25, 2003)

I always say, "I can tell what kind of job a climber is going to do by looking at what he is taking into the tree. If he isn't carrying a handsaw, he is not going to do (what I consider) fine pruning." My handsaw scabbard also has a hand pruner pouch and I carry both. If the branch is less than an inch, I will handsaw it. Branches that small usually vibrate with a chainsaw and makes a sloppy looking cut. Stuff smaller than half inch I will use the hand snips. Another thing I find the handsaw very useful for is to hook your rope if it is too far to reach with your hand. Need to be careful not to snag it. I also use the handsaw to push or guide a branch by applying pressure on it while cutting with the chainsaw. Works great when you don't want your arm reaching over the chainsaw. I use nylon loops for that purpose also. On tight V crotches on bigger branches I will cut almost all the way through with the chainsaw and finish with the handsaw to avoid cutting into the branch I want to save.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

I'll smoke ANYBODY trimming with just a handsaw, ESPECIALLY the one that ties/unties, ties/unties his chainsaw as he needs it.

IMO, completing the job in a timely manner is one of the pre-requsites to being an efficient climber. And REMEMBER! This is just friendly banter!


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## Koa Man (Oct 25, 2003)

I believe a good climber needs both to be efficient. Very rarely do I climb with JUST a handsaw. It is too slow and physically exhausting for the kind of tree work we do here. Most of the trees I do (not including palms) will take at least 2 hours. Many will be all day. These are single trees, not a multiple tree job at a single location. A lot of the trees I do are 30 or more feet in height with canopy spreads of 30 to 100 ft. requiring a lot of rigging. Many trees here will spread as much or more than their height.


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## NeTree (Oct 25, 2003)

I carry all three usually- Felco 2's, Fanno 1311, and my Echo.

I can cut a 1" branch with my Fanno before you can get your chainsaw started.

As for leaving the saw someplace in a tree? Naw. I keep it right with me the whole time. I don't even notice the weight anymore.

Prefer not to use the chainsaw just cuz I like the peace and quiet of hand pruning now and then. Nice break from all those hazard removals that eveyone else has scratched their heads in confusion and walked away from.


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## NickfromWI (Oct 25, 2003)

Yes, but it seems that efficiency, and ultimately, money are your main motivation. If that is the case, the chainsaw wins. Some are concerned about doing what's right for the tree.

You say you'll smoke anyone climbing with a handsaw. By that, I assume you mean you'll be the first one back on the ground. For many, that doesn't mean you "won". If your side of the tree and the hand-sawers side of the tree were critiqued by a group of arborists, would you still "smoke" 'em?

I find it to be quite liberating to climb without a chainsaw. It's easier to get to the tips of the limbs- chainsaw's always getting snagged on branches, and the weight hanging on my side can throw off my balance every now and then.

Often times, there are branches that you CAN cut faster with a handsaw. Or at least, with less effort. Think about a one inch branch. By the time you get your saw started, I'll already be putting my Silky back in my home-made leg scabbard.

love
nick


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *Yes, but it seems that efficiency, and ultimately, money are your main motivation. If that is the case, the chainsaw wins. Some are concerned about doing what's right for the tree.
> 
> You say you'll smoke anyone climbing with a handsaw. By that, I assume you mean you'll be the first one back on the ground. For many, that doesn't mean you "won". If your side of the tree and the hand-sawers side of the tree were critiqued by a group of arborists, would you still "smoke" 'em?
> ...




Thank You!!!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *
> 
> I can cut a 1" branch with my Fanno before you can get your chainsaw started. *




Hey, no arguement there! I would whip out my Fanno and slice that sucker in a second, myself! 

My assertion is that handsaws are for the final touches, not the begin all to end all. And if that 1" branch is dead, I'm not gonna dull my handsaw on it.


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## NeTree (Oct 25, 2003)

Actually Butch, I prefer to think they're all equally important tools.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Actually Butch, I prefer to think they're all equally important tools. *



Of course! My whole point is you don't leave your chainsaw on the ground! OR your handsaw!


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## NickfromWI (Oct 25, 2003)

I leave the saw on the ground until I need it. Then I'll have someone on the ground send it up. Usually it's just to cut a few lower limbs anyways, so it's only for the last few moments in the tree. 

I do as much as I can with a handsaw. Some trees, that means nothing, however. It depends on the tree and the climber.

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

Hey Nick, another weird thing that I do is never have a groundhand tie my saw on for me. Ain't I a freak? 

It's allways seemed easier for me to use the power in my legs to transport the saw vertically. I wear my saw from the ground up, even when body-thrusting.

Part of that comes from when I was trimming high lines through the woods. I never liked getting to the point where I wanted my saw, and had to call(and wait) for a groundie to make his way over to me to tie it on. I also don't like the possibility of fouling my rope once I've pulled up my saw and have to drop it back down again. Oh, and I almost allways climb with my rope coiled at my side. With suspenders, I don't feel diddly!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2003)

Yes, but it seems that efficiency, and ultimately, money are your main motivation. If that is the case, the chainsaw wins. Some are concerned about doing what's right for the tree.



Nick, since when did being efficient and making money automatically translate into improper tree care? 
Up where you reside, perhaps? Not so down here, or at least if I have anything to do with it! Please do not judge my ability to properly trim a tree until you've seen for yourself. And from what I've observed, doing a crappy job does not help you get many other jobs, either.


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## ORclimber (Oct 26, 2003)

IMO it is easier to use a handsaw and not damage surrounding branches while pruning. l prune with a handsaw and pole pruner, or pole saw. Lots of small cuts. Of course, that could change next week .


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## rbtree (Oct 26, 2003)

I'm with Nick and Rich.

Heck, a sharp Silky will be faster than a power saw for most two inch cuts. 

I hang the saw nearby a lot, or have it sent up for the final cuts.

Recently we crown cleaned the largest red oak in Seattle. I used my 335 for a few large cuts, but mostly used a 14 foot pole saw. I carried both it and the Zubat polesaw for one spreading section. A lot less fun maneuvering around with one or two poles saws than hanging a chain saw.


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## ramanujan (Oct 26, 2003)

If you don't even notice that you've got a saw with you in the tree, either you're a sloth or you haven't spent enough time finding out how much easier it is to climb (dance, scamper) through a tree w/o a saw on your hip. I'd much rather spend an extra 50sec sawing those four 3" limbs with my handsaw than drag my saw around for an hour just to make the four cuts.

I love quiet pruning, no need for muffs or plugs. 

Also working with handsaws allows safe cut 'n throw rhythm, easier to ensure that the brush goes out of the tree rather than nesting in the lower limbs.


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 26, 2003)

Sort of related, but I used to do all my hedge work with hand shears.

I could zip out the side of a 150' hedge that was 9' tall in about 1/2 hour if it was not too thick.

The hand tools always made a nicer cut.

But then 10 years later, old me does most shearing with gas hedge shears. Not quite the same slice, but I gotta do what I gotta do to avoid the tendonitis in my forearms.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 26, 2003)

Allright! A lot of good responses with only one person resorting to name calling! Cool. I'm proud of you guys - nothing like a good discussion among peers. Thats how we all learn, and grow!  

I actually used to work for a guy that didn't want his climbers to use a hand saw. He thought it kept them nit-picking the tree too much(reading this, Dave B?). I allways thought that was kinda nutty, but I HAVE seen climbers who **** around in the tree way too long.

As far as wearing out your joints and tendons, a handsaw will do that to me quicker than my 200 will. Its easier for me to let the chainsaw do the work.

A couple of you seem to equate speed/efficiency with improper pruning techniques. Where does that come from? Its quite possible to be quick, AND correct. And why wouldn't it?  I dunno, maybe Louisiana trees are different, or something.

So whose working today? I have the pleasure of taking down a tree this morning DEEP in the heart of Rednecksville this morning. If the rain don't stop us, that is. I think we'll be able to work around the raindrops, knock on wood. And I think their supposed to feed us, also. Cool! I love down-home redneck cooking! A nice file gumbo will go good with this little cool front we've got passing through here today. I've got a little chicken-picken, beer-drinking appointment with some friends this afternoon. Good Times!


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 26, 2003)

Dragging a chainsaw into a tree where it's not needed makes as much sense as dragging an 066 around for pruning. 

Over use of a chainsaw leads to more bad cuts. This statement is made after observing tree work for thirty years. I include myself in the study. My work quality increased dramatically when I was enlightend about how much easier it is to use a handsaw. Leave the chainsaw for the big stuff.

MB claims to be able to do the same quality work when the temptation is to use the chainsaw. He would be a rule breaker. Not saying he can't though. Just find it unlikely. 

Nick and I agree on the quality achieved with a combination of hand and chain saws. Each in the proper place. Most of the work I sell now requires a higher quality. The ONLY way to achieve that is with a handsaw since I work mostly in the outer third of the canopy.

When I sell jobs I need to justify my differences from other companies. By letting my client know that I make proper cuts and don't wound the tree they understand that they get a better value from my work. Most consumers don't know, or care, what tools we use. I give them a short talk about the importance of not nicking or missing the collar. I don't have any problem staying busy.

After spending time vacationing, and working, in Louisiana, I can't see that the trees there are any different than in other parts of the world. There are some specific species that are unique, but nothing extraordinary. 

The only way to settle this would be to do a head to head job. Think of the TCC with some real pruning. I plan on introducing a pruning event to the next MN TCC. The climbers will be required to make several cuts and they will be judged and scored. There will pre cut brush on the ground. The climber will be allowed to use their choice of tools to demonstrate that they can make proper cuts. When we work out the bugs in this event I'm going to propose that it be included in the ITCC. 

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Allright! A lot of good responses with only one person resorting to name calling! *



I haven't responded yet.

You asked about chain saw use and proper pruning. Handsaws make better cuts. 
One inch deadwood will not dull your saw. A sharp handsaw will cut wood up to 3", 4" or even 5" wood faster and/or better than a chainsaw. The switch point depends on the type of wood.
You can tie your saw on to your climbing rope before you go up, work the upper crown and tips, then pull up your chainsaw for the big stuff, without ever bothering your babysitter.
The obvious advantage to climbing without your chainsaw, besides it being easier, is that you can get around the small interior limbs without damaging them. 
If you claim that it's just as easy to climb with your chainsaw, you sure as hell ain't working out at the tips, where you're supposed to be.
Having a good handsaw will make you a better climber. If you are cutting two inch limbs (dead or alive) on a trim job with a chainsaw, you need a new handsaw.


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## NeTree (Oct 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ramanujan _
> *If you don't even notice that you've got a saw with you in the tree, either you're a sloth or you haven't spent enough time finding out how much easier it is to climb (dance, scamper) through a tree w/o a saw on your hip.
> 
> *



:blob5:


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 26, 2003)

The one thing that I don't think was mentioned was the less exposure to the chainsaw. A lot of pruning is in close quarters. Less exposure to the spinning chain is safer.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 26, 2003)

As usual, some people don't seem to read my words the way I write them. In re-reading my posts I try to see where I don't a'splain my position clearly, but I just don't seem to see it. I write the words the best I can; I'll try my best to improve if possible.

Tom, where did I say I climb only with my chainsaw? If I didn't have my handsaw at my side for a trim I would go home. I allways have a spare in my toolbox. And yes, Tom, I am guilty of making the world around me suit my needs. I don't care too much for it being the other way around, please feel free to interpet that any way you like.

KB, my style is to NOT dull my handsaw on deadwood WHENEVER I can. The little dead, I don't mind so much. The larger ones will taste my 200. And, SUPRISE! I CAN make good cuts with my chainsaw! Sure, I am guilty of the occasional miscut - who ain't? Oh, wait, I forgot! Ya'll never make a bad cut, do ya's?

And who says I can't get out to the tips? Ya'll are the biggest assumners I've ever read! My Marlboro dig-cam is on the way, I'll deal with this 'assumption' at that point. Lawdy! Jumping on my ability to do my job without even the FAINTEST IDEA AT ALL of whatever those abilities might be is mighty odd to me, indeed!

But thats allright, I know ya'll really love me! I love ya'll back, also.
Its ALL good! :angel:


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## NeTree (Oct 26, 2003)

A SHARP chain that's not being forced will make a remarkably smooth pruning cut on stuff 1" and over.


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## Koa Man (Oct 26, 2003)

Some here have mentioned Silky handsaws. Are they faster cutting than the ARS tri-edge or are they the same? If not, what is the difference and why are they superior? I may get one to try out if they cut faster than the ARS type saw teeth.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 26, 2003)

Koa,

We sliced and diced the merits of the various handsaws a while ago. Take a look through the archives for threads on Silky saws.

Short answer: Once you go Silky, you'll use your chainsaw less.

Tom


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## Koa Man (Oct 26, 2003)

Thanks, I'll do a search on it.


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## Joe (Oct 26, 2003)

Silky's stay sharp for a long time and the handles feel great in the hands. I love mine. 

Joe


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## Koa Man (Oct 26, 2003)

I just ordered one Zubat, one Ibuki and one Silky 300mm folding saw from Sherrill's. Figured I'll just try all three.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 26, 2003)

The Ibuki is not worth it, too agressive for the arc of the blade. The Zubat is the best blade out there. 

Butch, I did not understand the concept untill i got a Zubat either. It really is faster and cleaner then anything else I've used. I used to hone my Fanno's twice a week, file every other week, and get a reset every other month. Now I just put on a new Zubat blade every 3-4 months.


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## rbtree (Oct 26, 2003)

JPS, Thanks for the tip on the Ibuki.

I do like the straight blaced Natanoko, tho the handle is a bit floppy. It is better if you need to finish a topping cut and keep the hinge shape. And cuts very well. The blade is sturdier than the Zubat, which I do like the best. I have the Prosenthei, with two tooth patterns. It's great for ultra fine work, but is very fragile. The Hayauchi is one mean cutting pole saw blade!

I'd like to find someone local who could put a good edge on dull blades. Of course, the impulse hardening would no longer work. I've had Corona blades sharpened, but they don't hold an edge as long either, and the guy who did them didn't do a good enough job. But $5 each was cheap.


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## TimberMcPherson (Oct 27, 2003)

Carrying your 200 in the tree constantly slows you down,its more weight and bulk, its still going to take you longer to purely travel through the tree than a person not carrying one.

I leave my 200 on the tail of my main line, if I need it, its there, otherwise with jobs such as the forementioned pin oak the 200 is like dragging a reluctant dog to the vet.

You cant get the quality of cut or finish with an chainsaw and your more likely to get badly hurt by one. The chainsaw has its place, but not in all trees.

Hey if I wanted to focus on pure production I would be a logger not an arborist. But I will race you around a pin oak anytime!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

Bring it on! I ain't going anywhere anytime soon!


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## tjk (Oct 27, 2003)

We have about 10 climbers at the company here. All are wearing leg scabard silkys. The hand saw is used for cuts upto about 3"-4" limbs. While climbing we are fighting gravity all day. Lifting up 6 or 7 pounds to make cuts seems to be a waste of valuable energy. I'll send up saws to climbers when ever thay want, But they choose to only use it when the cuts are larger and there are several of them.


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 27, 2003)

I'm with those who leave the 200t tied on the tail on the ground most of the time and have Felcos in the pouch. Firmly believe the stench and hassle of chainsaw only worth it for big cuts. I had an 8" white oak limb ~40' high to get last week--did it with my Corona, didn't think twice about it. I keep arm semirigid and get whole body behind the power of the strokes. No mention of pollution effect on climber--am I the only one with lungs corroded by Ozone and fumes?

What's also missing from this thread is polesaw use. The mechanical efficiency that comes from its extra leverage is vastly underappreciated. If you can telescope the pole to the exact length you need and lean on it right, it can slice through big cuts faster than climbing to them and just as clean.

I once had a sub who used chainsaw on twigs--drove me nuts to see him crawl out and crank it all the time. He was surprisingly efficient, but could not get out in the tips--physically impossible, mb, unless you weigh <90#.

More often these daysI tie the polePRUNER on the tail to finish a tree, and save the chainsaw for trees with lots of tough-wooded cuts. Much of this is preference; best to keep all the tools handy.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 27, 2003)

MasterBlaster, if you come down out of a tree and have ten or fifteen minutes of dragging brush or other ground work to do before you are goin up another tree, do you leave the 200 on your belt while you do it?

Not me, I set it near the next tree.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kneejerk Bombas _
> *MasterBlaster, if you come down out of a tree and have ten or fifteen minutes of dragging brush or other ground work to do before you are goin up another tree, do you leave the 200 on your belt while you do it?
> 
> Not me, I set it near the next tree. *



HA! You a funny, funny man!


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kneejerk Bombas _
> *MasterBlaster, if you have ground work to do before you are goin up another tree, do you leave the 200 on your belt while you do it?Not me, I set it near the next tree. *



2 good reasons to clip the 200t on the hip:
1. You might need/want to make a cut. Having it with you can save you a stroll, and
2. You won't have it stolen. I set my 200t at the wrong place in Richmond and it grew legs. A $500. saw, probably went for a couple rocks of crack.

kb that WAS realtalk not sarcasm, wasn't it?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 27, 2003)

Like Gypo, I've tried a number of Silky's and completely ditched the top-handle and haven't used one in over a year. I've consistently climbed with 2 Silkys (300 mm folding Gomboy and sheathed Rootsaw has been favorite combo so far) along with a 346xp through that period. Add in a razor-sharp bull lopper and three sections of poles and that's my cutting team up in a multi-hour crown. Sounds like overkill, but the pole stays hung a lot of the time, and you do have the option to sling your saw to a limb, which I rarely choose to do.

I also carry a rack of slings with stainless steel biners, and in the Summer, a 70 oz camelbak is not uncommon. Weightwise, y'know, I just am not bothered that much. It's worth it , just to be fully prepared. The 394 full of gas and oil, now _that's_ getting exceedingly heavy.


> IMO, completing the job in a timely manner is one of the pre-requsites to being an efficient climber.



Ditto that. -TM-


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 27, 2003)

MB and Guy, not only do you carry it all around the tree, you keep it on you all day?

That seems excessive.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

Carry around WHAT? Oh yea, that nasty, heavy, cumbersome, "I can't get out to the tip with this on me" 200?

Nah, not really.

Sorry to hear about yur saw, Guy. Thieves suck!


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## NeTree (Oct 27, 2003)

Try tree climbing with a full ALICE pack on, carrying a 16 and about 20# of other assorted goodies & you'll see why 7 pounds is so unnoticable.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 27, 2003)

*Weight schmeight*

It's all relative. I used to do a lot of adventure racing. Getting back to tree work after a humping pack and gear for 50 or 80 miles made climbing with excessive weight sort of a non-event. A soldier coming back from Iraq might put the xs weight whiners in the class of super-puss. It's all relative, and even more so, on on the type of tree you'll be going into. -TM-


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## TREETX (Oct 27, 2003)

Never really heard someone brag so much about how ignorant they are.

Hey MB, keep the tough guy talk for beer swilling with your buddies. This is not the place to stroke your ego with talk like - I'll smoke you....

**** !!!! Shut up or put up, we all expect that you will win at least your local TCC if not the international.

Weren't you explaining earlier that you can't foot lock? It doesn't sound like you could smoke much other than some Marlboros or some Winston Menthols.

If you are carrying a fanno, you should really see about getting a better handsaw.

You should also enter a climbing competition asap. I think it would be humbling for you.


What do I carry? Zubat, 020T, ms200, or 044?? Depends on the tree. Same goes for which rope I use, how I enter the tree........

You are a train wreck MB, I try to look away, but can't help looking.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 27, 2003)

Well said Tex!


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *8" white oak limb ~40' high to get last week--did it with my Corona"
> streching the use of a hand saw a bit *


Yeah it was a stretch. Tho limb was dead, still solid in center. Wished I hadn't forgot to tie chainsaw on tail just in case; my grounddog can't tie a good knot with his paws yet. 
Still, it was eminently doable; a few extra strokes never hurt anybody.

Re train wrecks, I'd rather be that or a loose cannon than conform to what others consider "proper" jsut because they do. mb and I are way far apart on some things--I use felcos in trees more than chainsaw--but give me independence or give me death. 

Question Authority---Question Conformity!:blob6:


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *Never really heard someone brag so much about how ignorant they are.
> 
> Hey MB, keep the tough guy talk for beer swilling with your buddies. This is not the place to stroke your ego with talk like - I'll smoke you....
> ...


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

Why do I climb trees?
To make money.
Why do I try to complete the job as quickly as possible?
To make money.
Will I ever climb competitively?
Will it make me money?
Do I love trees?
Yes. They make me money.
Why do I work everyday?
To make money.
Why do I insist on production?
To make money.


Ya see, that Limp Bizquit dude, he did it for the nookie.


I'm doing it for the money.


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## Joe (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *JPS, Thanks for the tip on the Ibuki.*



I tried the Ibuki at 1 of the TCIA EXPOS and came to the same conclusion as JPS. A climber in my neck of the woods gives it a thumbs up but only after 1 months use.



> *I do like the straight blaced Natanoko, tho the handle is a bit floppy. It is better if you need to finish a topping cut and keep the hinge shape. And cuts very well. The blade is sturdier than the Zubat, which I do like the best. I have the Prosenthei, with two tooth patterns. It's great for ultra fine work, but is very fragile.*



This is good information to have, thanks Roger. BTW, did I mention I originally bought a Silky based on your recommendaton? It was a great investment for me. 



> *I'd like to find someone local who could put a good edge on dull blades. Of course, the impulse hardening would no longer work. I've had Corona blades sharpened, but they don't hold an edge as long either, and the guy who did them didn't do a good enough job. But $5 each was cheap. *



I'd like to try the same thing. I've saved a couple of dull Silky blades in hopes of finding some1 who would be willing to attempt to sharpen them. The manufacturer of the Zubat says no, we should just pitch the dull blades.

I was trained to use a chainsaw in the tree. The handsaw was used for minor pruning work. I guess Guy gave a description of a person who used a chainsaw excessively in the tree. That description also fit me. Investing in a Silky changed my style. 

Joe


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 27, 2003)

It's too bad that money is the main motive for doing tree work. It really isn't a well paying industry. 
Doing something you love is much more satisfying than just trying to make a buck. Those that do a job because they enjoy it, tend to do a better job and then make more because of it, but are ultimately satisfied by doing a great job. 
If all you care about is money, you don't need to work the tips or anything over about thirty feet, where the homeowner can't see. I literally spend about half my workday doing things the homeowner won't ever realize, sanitizing tools, working tips instead of wacking whole limbs, choosing tools that do better cuts but take more work, talking to the customer to make sure limbs need to go, using tree friendly climbing and rigging techniques, and a million other things to do what I think is best for the tree.
If I cut the time I spend on the jobs, would I make more money? I can't say for sure, but I don't really care, because it's not the kind of work I want to do.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

Geez, Mike! Now ya got me all teary-eyed and sniffling!


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 27, 2003)

I read in a philosophy book that whatever a person needs to feel fulfilled is something that they will NEVER have enough to feel fulfilled.

Give fools thier gold and knaves their power,
Let fortunes bubbles rise and fall,
Who sows a field or trains a flower or plants a tree is more than all.

***John Greenleaf Whittier

Tom


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## Joe (Oct 27, 2003)

Mike: it's your type of work ethic I would like to maintain in myself. We get better clientele because of this approach towards tree care. *We Win!* 

Joe


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

I would respond, but I'm too emotionally distraught at the moment. Prehaps, after I recover....


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## Stumper (Oct 27, 2003)

Joe, Resharpening the Silky blades isn't worthwhile but save 'em and give them to any amateur knive makers you may encounter, Pruning saw blades make awesome fillet knives and boning knives.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Smoker of Silkys*



How would you know, have you ever held one?


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 27, 2003)

Nope. Only smoked 'em. They WERE kinda harsh!


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## Groundman (Oct 27, 2003)

Blow them out of the tree with a hand grenade, who the hell cares? I still got to chip em.


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## Joe (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Joe, Resharpening the Silky blades isn't worthwhile but save 'em and give them to any amateur knive makers you may encounter, Pruning saw blades make awesome fillet knives and boning knives. *



Stumper: do you know some1 who wants them?

Joe


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## Stumper (Oct 27, 2003)

Not at the moment-I had a friend who made custom knives but he died a couple of years ago.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Groundman _
> *Blow them out of the tree with a hand grenade, who the hell cares? I still got to chip em. *



I can't figure out why you are not in charge of the tree's care and just clean up afterwards. You have the same attitude about trees as MB, and he gets to climb.


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## Guy Meilleur (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Joe _
> * We get better clientele because of this approach towards tree care. *


And better clientele means better money!! There is a connection between quality of work and quantity of material reward; money is not evil--it is just concentrated energy. 
I love the timeless feeling when I'm doing all I can in a crown (that a client will never see), and not thinking about the clock. Just me in the tree, me and the tree. Smart, tree-valuing clients sense what you're up to and will trust their trees to your care. 
That kind of work builds accounts that are like annuities, paving the way to your silver years with gold.
mm: "it's not a well-paying industry". Compared to what? I think it's ok.

Outlaw Liquidambar Guy


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## TimberMcPherson (Oct 28, 2003)

If I have done a day in a pohutakawa (metrocidious) and havent had to reach for my noisy little friend I know I have left the smoothest and closest cuts possible and done the best job I can and so do my clients.

Old chainsaw bars make great swords!


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## tjk (Oct 28, 2003)

MB, in a post you said a climbing competition will not make you money. I disagree. If you win you will make money. Just attending and partisipating you will gain a wealth of climbing techniuqes that could make you more productive and make you more money.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *
> Will I ever climb competitively?
> Will it make me money?
> *




Where did I say that? As usual, people can't seem to understand my printed words. Nuttin new.  

So, whats the top prize money?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 28, 2003)

You quoted yourself, then asked when you said it.
Not too confusing.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 28, 2003)

I didn't 'say' it. I 'asked' it. I guess the concept of punctuation elludes you.
Why does that not suprise me?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 28, 2003)

Reread the threads. I think you need a cup of coffee.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 28, 2003)

Silky blades are case hardened so they loose temper easlily, and the shae of the blade does not allow regrinding the teeth. The blade is thicker right at the teeth to reduce binding in the curf.

I've talekd to a couple of guys who say light honing will extend the life of the blade. I've been meaning to check it out.....


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## geofore (Oct 28, 2003)

*hand saws*

Does anyone else out there use Simple Green to clean their hand saw blades? I've used it on my table saw blades to clean the gum off them also. MB, the hand saws have a use in trimming the small stuff but 3" and up I like the power saw both are there to get the job done. On removals my hand saws don't get much use, an occasional small limb in the way will see the hand saw.


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## SilverBlue (Oct 28, 2003)

On wood 3" and up I like using this saw


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 28, 2003)

*Re: hand saws*



> _Originally posted by geofore _
> * MB, the hand saws have a use in trimming the small stuff but 3" and up I like the power saw both are there to get the job done. *




IMO, the handsaw is for the finishing touches, NOT the complete trim.
And if I didn't have my handsaw at my side, I would go home.

Ya'll got me repeating myself. You still ain't down with that punctuation thing, huh Mike?


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## TREETX (Oct 28, 2003)

So you do this solely to make money?

That is just sad. Maybe it is because I have other more lucrative options but instead opt for a labor of love.

Tree work does not pay as much as I got paid when I was working as an analytical chemist, but it IS more rewarding.

I try to read your train wreck posts about how yer cuttin' trees to be makin' money - but I just can't stand the overwehlming stench of HACK in your posts.

Every save up money for some books?

You need to go climb with a larger circle of climbers - It would be humbling. 

If you knew how much you don't know, then you would know something.

.02

Glen Campbell from True Grit, "You have done nothing when you've bested a fool."


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 28, 2003)

Dang, Treetx, first Mike gets me all blurry-eyed, and now your post gets me all choked-up again!!

I feel so bad now....


Analytical Chemist? Now thats impressive! You must really know what your talking about! Now that I know that I'll really give your posts a more proper filing!

Its good altruism fuels your business ethic! We need more people like you out there! Two thumbs up, my man!

Its really not fair to ellude towards calling me a hack, sight unseen and all. I guess thats all part of your analytical training, again, I'm impressed. Still, and all - Do YOU like being called a hack? 

Following your philanthropic business principals wouldn't work for me very well, or for any others I dealt with all my life. Invariably its allways about operating a successful business, making money. Yea, I DO like to make money. And climbing trees.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 28, 2003)

I think you should read some depth into Blaster's words, instead of chewin em up and spittin em out. I's derailing the thread. 


> I love the timeless feeling when I'm doing all I can in a crown (that a client will never see), and not thinking about the clock. Just me in the tree, me and the tree. Smart, tree-valuing clients sense what you're up to and will trust their trees to your care.


Guy, thank you.

-TM-


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## rumination (Oct 28, 2003)

I am interested in geofore's question about using simple green to clean saw blades. I recently got my first Silky saw (it rocks!) and am wondering what people use to clean the blade.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 28, 2003)

*Cleaning blades*

Alcohol, to sanitize the blade between prunings cleans fine. Use on hand pruners and pole pruner blades. -TM-


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## Joe (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rumination _
> *I am interested in geofore's question about using simple green to clean saw blades. I recently got my first Silky saw (it rocks!) and am wondering what people use to clean the blade. *



Dish washing liquid. 

Joe


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## TREETX (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *
> 
> Analytical Chemist? Now thats impressive!
> ...



Yes, it is - thanks.

No, I don't but it happens all the time because I run a small company, don't have $80,000 of truck and chipper, but yet still land good properties.

I make that comment in response to you resisting the truth that there ARE a better ways out there when it comes to climbing techniques.

All here have more to learn. 

Hacks are stubborn and don't want to learn - that is where the reference came from.

Search around on this site and others, try new stuff in evenings and weekends - apply them to your work. That beats bragging about old techniques and unsafe practices




> But back to handsaws, a squirt of carb cleaner or even WD-40 will work. Lots of stuff will cut the tree sap.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Today I ordered a Big Shot, 10oz bullet bag with red Zing-It, and a Zubat.
I STHIL ain't gonna dull it on the big dead!  

I'm torn between the Ness and the Glide. I like the padding of the Ness, but the attachment design of the Glide appears more to my liking. Maybe I'll order both, they all are gonna wear out anyway.

I'll NEVER wear a buttstrap saddle again. A quarter-century of getting my arse crunched has come to an end. OOOH-RAH!!!


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## TREETX (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> * A quarter-century of getting my arse crunched has come to an end. OOOH-RAH!!! *



It wasn't my arse getting crunched that bothered me about the buttstrap. 

Sounds like some great investments. Hope you don't get in trouble seeing what all you can shoot with the Bigshot

You can put eggs into orbit I hear 

Sounds like fun!


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## Gord (Oct 29, 2003)

I'd strongly recommend against the Navaho. The attatchment point doesn't work for tree climbing, it's very hard to get off-vertical when in it. Mine is the designated saddle for my friends while rec climbing. Not all that comfortable either.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 29, 2003)

WHOA! I posted the WRONG SADDLE!!

I meant the NESS! I edited my post....


I KNOW the Navajo sucks! I done bought that sucker, and sent it back!


Sorry!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 29, 2003)

Hey, concerning that Big Shot, how important is it to have that $45 release snap? I didn't order that.

Do ya'll think the 10oz bag will do me?


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## TREETX (Oct 29, 2003)

Ok, I'll bite - don't get the snap there are cheap alternatives. I have seen hardware store clips, etc. Wichard

I set mine up with an old archery release I had laying around.

Use a prussik/klemheist to make adjustable.

I use a 10/12/14 oz 

Mainly the 12


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## Gord (Oct 29, 2003)

> Do ya'll think the 10oz bag will do me?



maybe if you talk to it nice...?


 

sorry.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 29, 2003)

So 10oz is a little too light? I only picked that because I thought the Big Shot worked best with a lighter bag. I have a 14oz that I normally use.

Thanks, guys. I'm gonna have fun(I hope) learning how to use it!


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## TREETX (Oct 29, 2003)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do ya'll think the 10oz bag will do me?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



Or buy it enough drinks
 

The 10 is cool, you'll find it handy. I use mine a lot but it is worthless on rough barked trees like pecans


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## NeTree (Oct 29, 2003)

Big Shot & acorns, Butch.....


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2003)

In the real world of throw lining, one successful shot that won't come down cause the ball was too light is a real angrifier. 

I have 10 (rarely used) 12, 14 and 16. The 12 and 14 are ok with 2.2 Zing-it, but not always. I can hand toss the 16oz 50-60 feet and 70-80 with the BS, add 10 feet to that as the ball weight drops 2 oz. And 10 feet or so for the 1.75 oz ZI.

Rough bark, obstructions like fir twig duff etc, can really screw things up.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 30, 2003)

I'm with RB. Lighter shot bags have been an infuriator enough times that I use a 16 oz bendy bag on my #1 reel and a 12oz bullet bag on #2. I've found more advantages in using the heftier shotbags that all the lighter ones, and the stiffies (6) just hang there and do nothing.

Tracing the shot bag back through, I find more enjoyable than the shot itself. To have really good control, weight is good. JP suggested shooting a light bag, letting it drop, changing bags to a fatter weight, then pulling it back up to trace it down. I can see the merit, but personally, I try to cut steps out of a process, not add to them unless there's some bigger benefit .

Although there are many techniques to using the mighty bigshot, I've become impressively accurate and swift and will share what I've got. Pull with index and middle finger, ungloved. Put your wondergloves back on to pull line. Sorry, about the diversion. This thread is about handsaws vs chainsaws. -TM-


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 15, 2003)

Well. I've had my Zubat for a couple of weeks now and all I have to say is my 200 ain't leaving my side anytime soon.

Now I have to wait to see if the blade stays sharper longer than my regular blade.  

It DOES make a different sound as it cuts through the wood. I hope thats a sign of superior steel. I've already been introduced to the superior price!


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## rbtree (Nov 15, 2003)

Wednesday, we crown cleaned and did a thorough limb lightening on a cedar and three doug fir, two of which were 145 feet tall, and right next to the house. While there were a few 2.5-4 inch stubs, we enjoyed the day where all my modded saws stayed on the truck. I often climb with a Silky on each side, Wyatt Earp style...But my Zubat pole saw made 80 % of the cuts, as each branch must be lightened, and out to near the tip. To do such a task without a polesaw would require Olga Korbut gymnastic abilities and weight, of which I only partially qualify, and take forever.

Only problem was the line set took me ages....I stubbornly kept aiming for a small target 85 feet up...after I finally got it set, and Jumared up, I saw why I mostly kept a lanyard on while ascending..the set was very marginal. I had another of those recently...very unnerving to say the least. It is very hard to get a safe line set in conifers, and hard to ascertain from the ground, even with binoculars...Poor crotch selection could end in an obituary....

..I guess Rock Hudson had a similar problem....


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## rbtree (Nov 15, 2003)

MB,

You look like a strong boy, just use the Zubat!!!

Seriously tho, be gentle with it, the blade is slender and a bit delicate. I have broken a couple Natanoko blades, which are beefier, and several Prosenthei's which are way too wimpy, but a great substitute, if your handpruners are mia.

Silky steel is to handsaws as Okatsune is to hand pruners, superior ...and impulse hardened much better and longer lasting than Corona, which are not bad at all for the price. I dont use mine all that much as we do so many removals, so I'd say a blade will easily last 6 months or more, at least twice as long as Corona and 10 times that of Fanno.


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## kf_tree (Nov 15, 2003)

Poor crotch selection could end in an obituary....

..I guess Rock Hudson had a similar problem....



rb .........you are classic


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kf_tree _
> *Poor crotch selection could end in an obituary....
> 
> ..I guess Rock Hudson had a similar problem....  *


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *MB,
> 
> You look like a strong boy, just use the Zubat!!!
> ...




I can't unnerstan how ya'll think using a handsaw is easier on the body than using a small chainsaw. For me, a handsaw is more wear and tear on me than a chainsaw.
A properly running, SHARP chainsaw.  

The Zubat blade did seem more delicate than blades I've used before. Thanks for the warning, rb.

So hey rbtree, are you saying Fanno blades suck? I only went over to them because of the hook on the Corona handles. The Fanno handles have a rounded handle, it doesn't get snagged up on crap.

Now that I think about it, the Fanno DOES seem to get duller quicker. I thought it was my imagination. I could always make a Corona blade fit a Fanno handle.  

Anyways, my 200 will stay clipped to my saddle!


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## Davidsinatree (Nov 15, 2003)

I'v been useing a fanno saw with good results but it is starting to get dull, time to replace it. Wundering who makes the best AMERICAN MADE hand saw out there. I cant see the japs makeing a better hand saw than us for long.

:jester:


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## rbtree (Nov 16, 2003)

The Fanno blade is much softer steel, or the same but not impulse hardened, so it doesn't hold an edge worth beans. But it can be resharpened with a feather file, as can the pole saw blades I get from Bishop. But I'm not that good at filing, so just buy new pole saw blades. I had some sharpened once for $5 ea, but they werent very good.

Many of us don't like the Corona handle getting snagged, but that hook sure gives great cutting leverage.

I dunno, MB...You look like a brute...me, I'm a 54 yr old wimp, and strained my shoulder this summer on a big rope swing..for kids, eh? and still have no problems with using a handsaw. It is other movements that have kept me from healing up 100% as yet. And now that the snow is flying, rehab will consist of wielding a 48 inch pole in each hand, and shredding the steep and deep!!!

Ski to die, die to ski.......


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## TimberMcPherson (Nov 16, 2003)

"I cant see the japs makeing a better hand saw than us for long."

Hardman are you serious, how long is long? I just got a catalog from silky thats about the size of a TIME magazine. They have saws to cover just about everything,IMHO they cant be surpassed on range or blade quality. The same has been said for japanese bikes and cars and they still seem to be very much on top 20 years later.

Out of the 30 or so arborists I work around in 4 companies I know one that doesnt use a silky.


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## Tree Machine (Nov 16, 2003)

*Hand saws are NOT created equal*

If you want to perform the acid test, do a rip-cut down a sheet of plywood _lengthwise_. Also, as well as timing the run, count the number of pull strokes it takes to get from one end of the sheet to the other. Compare one saw to another.

I have done the tests, trying to be non-partial. All the saws cut wood, though one finishes so far ahead as to not really have a competitor.

I'm a big fan of "Buy domestic products" but as far as hand saws go, I have to put that aside and bow to our Japanese friends. 

The attached image is of me doing some bevel cuts on a trim piece with a Silky; not tree work this instance.


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## Menchhofer (Nov 18, 2003)

I have the Silky Gomtaro convertible with the 1500mm pole and find it very nice and sturdy to use.

I am thinking about trying the Zubat convertible but it is on a telescoping pole. 

Just wondered if anyone uses this contraption and is it reliable and sturdy or should I stay with the fixed length? Seems as if I have read the telescoping feature becomes loose and does not retain the required firmness "we" like.


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## Menchhofer (Nov 19, 2003)

Brian-

Thanks, maybe I will wait until next year and see what is new/better.


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## Curtis James (Nov 19, 2003)

I just got a silky for my birthday from my wife. I love it thus far. I am a little unsure on how long the plastic scabbard will last. So for the scabbard is cool. I just don't know if it will hold up.
Those Japs you spoke of invented the pull stroke on all the saws we carry and also the design of the three edged tooth.
I only have the Zubat right now, but I will get the Ibuki, oh yes I will


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## NickfromWI (Nov 19, 2003)

Japs?


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## TimberMcPherson (Nov 20, 2003)

They also made some of the best 2 stroke motors to grace two wheels. 
They have a long tradition of making good blades, Im quite sure that they will keep it up. (aside from that horrible Ginsu incident)


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