# Anybody have some closeup pics of a band roller?



## TraditionalTool (Feb 12, 2010)

I've exchanged a few messages with one of the members here and we think we can design our own band roller, since to the Cook's Band Roller.

I wasn't sure if someone with the Cook's Band Roller would mind taking some closeup pics for us to study and discuss???

I know several XLNT machinists in my area, and I have my own Nichols Horizontal Mill, along with an old South Bend 9A metal lathe, so think I can fabricate something up.

I can't imagine these working too much different than a metal roller, which I have used to curve sections of sheet metal in the past, or even a tire machine for you old hats, which is used to make the metal tire that wraps around wagon wheels. One difference I would see between the Cook's Band Roller and a metal roller is that you would need to control the depth in which the band can be inserted into the rollers, so that one doesn't roll the teeth.

I know a blacksmith that has a metal roller which I have used in the past, and I will try to get over there so I can look at how the wheels work to account for size of material and curvature which it applies to the steel as it is rolled through. This image from the Cooks site doesn't show the rolling mechanism at all...BTW, rolling bandsaw blades is not something Cook's came up with, it has been used on larger/wider bandsaw blades for some time, Cook's only borrowed the idea and adapted it to smaller bandsaw blades, IMO, so if you have another type of band roller, feel free to post pics of it!


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## deeker (Feb 12, 2010)

While I know their roller works. It is extremely high priced. And I want one.

But don't, and won't pay the asking price. I have thought of buying one, with a few other people. Then sharpening all of their blades.

Kevin


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 12, 2010)

deeker said:


> While I know their roller works. It is extremely high priced. And I want one.
> 
> But don't, and won't pay the asking price. I have thought of buying one, with a few other people. Then sharpening all of their blades.
> 
> Kevin


Kevin,

I really can't afford to spend that type of money either, but I am pretty sure that will help saw blades, as I pointed out, this is not something that is new.

This ring roller from Harbor Freight might be a good place to start though, and fabricate some rollers for it on the lathe.

(linky pic to Harbor Freight website)


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## redprospector (Feb 12, 2010)

Alan,
I've got one, but I haven't used it lately since I haven't ran my mill for a while. Right now I'm "babysitting" my wife while she recovers from surgery, and we've had quite a bit of snow so I'll have to dig my way into the shed.
It may be a little while, but I'll share pic's.
If anyone else has one feel free to share pic's before me.

Andy


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Alan,
> I've got one, but I haven't used it lately since I haven't ran my mill for a while. Right now I'm "babysitting" my wife while she recovers from surgery, and we've had quite a bit of snow so I'll have to dig my way into the shed.
> It may be a little while, but I'll share pic's.
> If anyone else has one feel free to share pic's before me.
> ...


Andy,

Sorry to hear about your wife, so many me and my wife know that are either going through surgery, or worse...some close friends of ours just lost their 12 year old daughter to cancer after a 2 year battle (I honestly can't think of a more horrific thing for parents to go through...made me appreciate my 14 year old daughter, I just grabbed her and hugged her)..another close friend went in for breast cancer and things looked good, but the doctor changed his mind and wants her to go in for chemo...hopefully it will work out...health is so important for all of us...

When you get a chance I would love to see some pics and understand how it works, how it adjusts, how many rollers it uses, etc...I don't know if I would fabricate something from scratch or not, more likely would be to retrofit something like the ring roller I pictured from Harbor Freight. If that could be done, it might be possible to fabricate and sell the components at a reasonable price so that they could be offered to people that were interested in purchasing the Harbor Freight roller and adapt the needed components to it.

I have access to some much heavier equipment than I have, I'm sure this can be done with a little bit of time and ingenuity.

Please do post pics, as your time/situation permits. Best to your wife for a quick recovery, cherish her and toast her/your health, it is important for all of us!


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## Ted J (Feb 12, 2010)

Doesn't the Cook's roller flatten out the whole blade, and then you have to reset the teeth afterwards or just use it as a flat blade?

So your just wanting to flatten out a saw blade correct so you can get rid of any pitching in the blade because the tooth setting may be out of whack?

If that's the case and you want to fab your own or a place to start from, look at Eastwoods site, you may have to fabricate your own mandrells for the machine to adapt to a band blade. For $150 it's a place to start, there isn't a price on the Cook's website that I found for their band roller.
http://www.eastwood.com/economy-bead-roller-kit-with-mandrels.html


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## deeker (Feb 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Alan,
> I've got one, but I haven't used it lately since I haven't ran my mill for a while. Right now I'm "babysitting" my wife while she recovers from surgery, and we've had quite a bit of snow so I'll have to dig my way into the shed.
> It may be a little while, but I'll share pic's.
> If anyone else has one feel free to share pic's before me.
> ...



Babysitting!! Don't make me come there and hurt ya. I hope she is doing well, and give her our best. Prayers sent for her.

If you would pass on some info about the roller...we would appreciate it and I might even turn down the heat for you.

Thanks

Kevin


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## deeker (Feb 12, 2010)

Ted J said:


> Doesn't the Cook's roller flatten out the whole blade, and then you have to reset the teeth afterwards or just use it as a flat blade?
> 
> So your just wanting to flatten out a saw blade correct so you can get rid of any pitching in the blade because the tooth setting may be out of whack?
> 
> ...



Yes it is to flatten out the blade. And when a tooth is set too far, I pull out the tiwaimi made pliars and bend it in line.

After the blade is rolled flat..(not for the benefit of the tooth set)...the teeth are set again....and then sharpened.

Going to look up your information.

Thanks 

Kevin


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

Ted J said:


> Doesn't the Cook's roller flatten out the whole blade, and then you have to reset the teeth afterwards or just use it as a flat blade?
> 
> So your just wanting to flatten out a saw blade correct so you can get rid of any pitching in the blade because the tooth setting may be out of whack?
> 
> ...



Naw I highly doubt you want to flaten out the teeth That would shorten the life big time unsetting and resetting!
The unit above may be a good start we'll see!
comes with diffrent mandrals!
Lets see what Andy comes up with!
Thanx to Al for posting this! Its been on my mind for quite some time ,I like others here don't got 1000 bucks to spend on the cooks unit!If it were a more resonable price it would likly be a good buy and they would likly sell truckloads of them!Andy swears by his!Thanx Andy If ya can donate that would be great!


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 12, 2010)

FJH said:


> Naw I highly doubt you want to flaten out the teeth That would shorten the life big time unsetting and resetting!


That was my initial thought also, as the teeth can be brittle also when tempered and many of the manufacturers do temper the teeth. However, they are spring steel, and might be able to withstand that.


FJH said:


> Lets see what Andy comes up with!


I'll second that. I think it's best to first understand how the Cook's Band Roller works, as well as other Band Rollers. I have a contact who has one that was designed for larger/wider bandsaws blades, that might help shed some light also. As important would be to understand what/if any deficiencies the Cook's Band Roller has, and if possible to work any of those issues out that would be good also. This I mean in regard to how it adjusts and/or holds the band while is it rolled, things like that.


FJH said:


> Thanx to Al for posting this! Its been on my mind for quite some time ,I like others here don't got 1000 bucks to spend on the cooks unit!If it were a more resonable price it would likly be a good buy and they would likly sell truckloads of them!Andy swears by his!Thanx Andy If ya can donate that would be great!


Your most welcome, just trying to understand this to decide for myself if it's possible to come up with another/similar tool that would do the same thing. That bead roller is interesting which Ted posted, and there are some inexpensive slip-rolls available as well which are designed for rolling sheets of metal. Fortunately the thickness of the bands we use are thin, so most of the inexpensive machines should be able to handle it with the proper rollers.


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> That was my initial thought also, as the teeth can be brittle also when tempered and many of the manufacturers do temper the teeth. However, they are spring steel, and might be able to withstand that.
> 
> I'll second that. I think it's best to first understand how the Cook's Band Roller works, as well as other Band Rollers. I have a contact who has one that was designed for larger/wider bandsaws blades, that might help shed some light also. As important would be to understand what/if any deficiencies the Cook's Band Roller has, and if possible to work any of those issues out that would be good also. This I mean in regard to how it adjusts and/or holds the band while is it rolled, things like that.
> 
> Your most welcome, just trying to understand this to decide for myself if it's possible to come up with another/similar tool that would do the same thing. That bead roller is interesting which Ted posted, and there are some inexpensive slip-rolls available as well which are designed for rolling sheets of metal. Fortunately the thickness of the bands we use are thin, so most of the inexpensive machines should be able to handle it with the proper rollers.



I see we wern't the only ones thinking!
I beleive that that machine will be easily adaptable to our needs!Its cheap enough But I live in canada it will be an ordeal getting here it id think we'll see!


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

*there isn't a price on the Cook's website that I found for their band roller*

No they seem to have takin down the price!
It was aprox 800 us!


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

*I was wrong $ 895*

http://www.cookssaw.com/bandsaw/bandsaw-blade-roller.php


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## redprospector (Feb 12, 2010)

First off, thank's for all the well wishes and especially prayers. Dr. said the wife is on track with her recovery. She's not supposed to lift over 10 lbs. and that's my main problem. I almost have to beat her over the head to keep her down. 

Now, as far as the band roller. You guy's are thinking wrong on how to flatten the blade, It's not done with 2 flat rollers and the set dosen't get flattened. One roller is flat, and the other has a rather large bead on it.

First let's look at how that cup get's into your band. A new blade is theoretically flat. Your band wheel's have a crown on them. After you install the blade and tension it, the blade somewhat conforms to the crown in the wheel, which causes the tracking on the saw to work.............But, remember that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Every time the blade goes around the wheel the molecules in the steel of the band are moving (stretching, flattening out, whatever you want to call it). Depending on the gearing on your mill, the wheels are turning at probably about 900 rpm's. Every time the blade cups to fit the wheel the molecules move a little more, but mostly on the inside of the blade while the outside stays relativly the same. So what happens is exactly opposite of what most of us would think.............The blade cups in the opposite direction of what it cups going around the wheel.
With the band roller what you are doing is finding where the center of that cup is, and stretching, or moving the molecules on the outside of the blade to match those on the inside, creating a flat blade again.

$900 plus shipping is a lot of money, but I have over doubled the life of my bands with the roller. So if you're using your mill quite a bit, it is an investment that will pay you back pretty quick. I hate to think of how many dollars worth of blades I have thrown away that could have been rolled and had twice the life.
I'll try to draw up something of how it works so you guy's can get a better idea before I get a chance to get the pic's.

Andy


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

*Andy look at the rig that ted posted*

go to the link and look at the atachment madrals pic! in the add
see if any of those suit the job!!!I know what your talking about we dont want to flaten past the gullet !
The crown is in the body of the blade as Tim has always said!
the is a set of dies there that I think may work!


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

http://www.eastwood.com/economy-bead-roller-kit-with-mandrels.html


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## redprospector (Feb 12, 2010)

FJH said:


> http://www.eastwood.com/economy-bead-roller-kit-with-mandrels.html



The two on the far right might be made to work. 
Here is a drawing of what it has. Sorry I'm not better at drawing on the computer.

Well, that didn't work. Let me try again.

Andy


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## Ted J (Feb 12, 2010)

FJH said:


> go to the link and look at the atachment madrals pic! in the add
> see if any of those suit the job!!!I know what your talking about we dont want to flaten past the gullet !
> The crown is in the body of the blade as Tim has always said!
> the is a set of dies there that I think may work!



You mean these?


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## redprospector (Feb 12, 2010)

Ok, let's see if this works.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/redprospector/Saw mill/Plansdrawings.jpg

Andy


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## deeker (Feb 12, 2010)

Ted J said:


> Doesn't the Cook's roller flatten out the whole blade, and then you have to reset the teeth afterwards or just use it as a flat blade?
> 
> So your just wanting to flatten out a saw blade correct so you can get rid of any pitching in the blade because the tooth setting may be out of whack?
> 
> ...





redprospector said:


> Ok, let's see if this works.
> 
> http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/redprospector/Saw mill/Plansdrawings.jpg
> 
> Andy



Are there different ones for the convex and concave blades??? Or do we turn them inside out???


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

Deeker I think you would turn the blade inside out to suit!


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

Ted J said:


> You mean these?



Yup


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## redprospector (Feb 12, 2010)

Yep, just flip it.
You'll also need to fab up some kind of guide to keep the bead on the roller in the same place on the body around the band. Just a table with a little adjustable back fence would work.

Andy


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## Ted J (Feb 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yep, just flip it.
> You'll also need to fab up some kind of guide to keep the bead on the roller in the same place on the body around the band. Just a table with a little adjustable back fence would work.
> 
> Andy



So, if you took one of the pictured mandrels and milled a shoulder into one like I modified, would that be close to a working model?


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## olyman (Feb 12, 2010)

heres a thought--and i dont have a sawmill--buttttt--hvac guys have a roller--that rolls the ends, on chimney pipe--single wall--would one of those--be strong enough to do what your wanting to do?? i would think you could get those for much less---and i know--there are diff rollers made for them--


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 12, 2010)

olyman said:


> heres a thought--and i dont have a sawmill--buttttt--hvac guys have a roller--that rolls the ends, on chimney pipe--single wall--would one of those--be strong enough to do what your wanting to do?? i would think you could get those for much less---and i know--there are diff rollers made for them--


It might, I don't know to be honest. HVAC guys roll galvanized flashing, don't they?

Bandsaw blades are made of spring steel, so it need to be able to roll the crown out of it, I think that is why the Cook's Band Roller has a flat and a bead/round, I think the large bead/round wheel pushes the crown down as it rolls it. At least if I understand how Andy described it.


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## FJH (Feb 12, 2010)

I beleive the hardest thing here is going to be holding the blade centered on the crown your tring to remove!


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## redprospector (Feb 13, 2010)

Ted J said:


> So, if you took one of the pictured mandrels and milled a shoulder into one like I modified, would that be close to a working model?



No, the bottom roller needs to be flat across it. Remember you're not trying to bend the blade, you're smashing molecules.

Andy


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## Ted J (Feb 13, 2010)

redprospector said:


> No, the bottom roller needs to be flat across it. Remember you're not trying to bend the blade, you're smashing molecules.
> 
> Andy



Oh... then just modify one of the flat ones to the left side then, right?


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 13, 2010)

Ted J said:


> Oh... then just modify one of the flat ones to the left side then, right?


That's what I was thinking, use the beaded mandrel with one of the flatter ones on the left, or just turn new ones on a lathe.

I am still unclear as to how much pressure is on the 2 mandrels and/or if there are only 2 ? Is the fit tight so when you turn the handle you can feel the beaded mandrel pushing down on the blade? Would be best to be able to use one I 'spose.


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## Ted J (Feb 13, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> That's what I was thinking, use the beaded mandrel with one of the flatter ones on the left, or just turn new ones on a lathe.
> 
> I am still unclear as to how much pressure is on the 2 mandrels and/or if there are only 2 ? Is the fit tight so when you turn the handle you can feel the beaded mandrel pushing down on the blade? Would be best to be able to use one I 'spose.



I guess you could take a blade and cut it into 1 or 2 foot sections to be able to "read" the profile and experiment with the spacing of the mandrels...?

PS: I found one cheaper than $150:
How about $125.95
http://www.summitracing.com


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## FJH (Feb 13, 2010)

So I have a question for Andy How much preasure does one have to put on the tention screw to acheive the desired effect on the blade!


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 13, 2010)

FJH said:


> So I have a question for Andy How much preasure does one have to put on the tention screw to acheive the desired effect on the blade!


The beading tools seem to have adjustable pressure as you need to tighten them as you continue to form the bead.


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## FJH (Feb 13, 2010)

*Summit bender!*

Thanx for posting the Summit bender Ted j!
Being in canada I have a half chance of being able to order one!
I tried setting up an acount this morning but it won't accept my postal code!
I have an email into them to see if they can sort this out!I beleive this machine is the ticket for making the band roller we are all thinking about!

Thanx 
again!


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 13, 2010)

FJH said:


> Thanx for posting the Summit bender Ted j!
> Being in canada I have a half chance of being able to order one!
> I tried setting up an acount this morning but it won't accept my postal code!
> I have an email into them to see if they can sort this out!I beleive this machine is the ticket for making the band roller we are all thinking about!
> ...


I still like the looks of the ring bender as a base, from harbor freight. There are one or two in north Washington, if that works you could take a road trip. I don't know if the stores will ship to B.C., and think Harbor Freight is only in the U.S., but the base unit looks close to what is needed, sans the mandrels.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 13, 2010)

Another idea...remember you need to think outside the box...

(linky pic to Enco)


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## FJH (Feb 13, 2010)

Al I like the harbour freight unit to nice and compact!But I'm thinking out of the box here Plan B if this don't work out for my blades I still will have a sheet metal bender for other projects!


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## FJH (Feb 13, 2010)

*More Ideas*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqErTwU1rSE


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## FJH (Feb 13, 2010)

*Spent a whole 4 hours*

Finally came up with this on this side of the border!
http://www.kmstools.com/magnum-bead-roller-2935
235 bucks gets it on my door step!
Looked absolutly everywhere. EBAY yada yada all would have been in the 300 range by the time the dust settled!So I may order this puppy and if it dont work out at least I got it for playing with body work on the old ford!


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 14, 2010)

FJH said:


> Al I like the harbour freight unit to nice and compact!But I'm thinking out of the box here Plan B if this don't work out for my blades I still will have a sheet metal bender for other projects!


Yeah, that's one way to look at it. Could even serve as dual purpose if designed right.

The Harbor Freight ring bender is about the most reasonably priced for what you get. I would need to look at it closer, there's a Harbor Freight not too far, about 45 minutes away, just need to get over there and see what it looks like.

Still need the mandrels, but I think I could turn them on my lathe, and then get them tempered.


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## Andrew96 (Feb 14, 2010)

Guys...very interesting. I've been following along but my bandsaw (upright laguna shop unit) doesn't show signs of crowning bands like you guys have on your man sized BSs. 
My point......Fellow Canadians...As I understand it, Harbour freight is owned by one brother. As we know...they sell in the states. Busy Bee tools is owned by the other brother...and sells in Canada. Both guys make it hard to buy from one company and import...forcing you to buy from the appropriate store near you. Most of the items are identical. Sometimes not though. When you see the yanks talking harbour freight....go look at busy bee. It's usually there.


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## FJH (Feb 14, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Guys...very interesting. I've been following along but my bandsaw (upright laguna shop unit) doesn't show signs of crowning bands like you guys have on your man sized BSs.
> My point......Fellow Canadians...As I understand it, Harbour freight is owned by one brother. As we know...they sell in the states. Busy Bee tools is owned by the other brother...and sells in Canada. Both guys make it hard to buy from one company and import...forcing you to buy from the appropriate store near you. Most of the items are identical. Sometimes not though. When you see the yanks talking harbour freight....go look at busy bee. It's usually there.


busy bee dosent have one!
kms was the only one I found so far!
Princess Auto didn't show one either
Ebay eastwood and one private seller
still looking
Al this is a tidy unit!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheet-Metal-ROT...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48395a5e5c


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## Ted J (Feb 14, 2010)

FJH said:


> Finally came up with this on this side of the border!
> http://www.kmstools.com/magnum-bead-roller-2935
> 235 bucks gets it on my door step!
> Looked absolutly everywhere. EBAY yada yada all would have been in the 300 range by the time the dust settled!So I may order this puppy and if it dont work out at least I got it for playing with body work on the old ford!



I'm assuming that's in Canadian Funds, so that's not a bad deal for what.... 40-50 bucks US$ ???? :check: :biggrinbounce2:


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## Ted J (Feb 14, 2010)

FJH said:


> busy bee dosent have one!
> kms was the only one I found so far!
> Princess Auto didn't show one either
> Ebay eastwood and one private seller
> ...



Alan, this guy is in Kalifornia... local pickup may save you money!!!!


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## FJH (Feb 14, 2010)

Ted J said:


> Alan, this guy is in Kalifornia... local pickup may save you money!!!!



Ted
I thought it was a good deal too! If i was state side I would go after the ebay one that I posted for Al !Thats a tidy unit!


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## Old Hilly (Feb 15, 2010)

Andrew might just have a point about his bandsaw not cupping blades. I have never had that problem with my small bandsaw either and I suspect that it is because the blade is fully supported on a slightly crowned wheel. Looking at some of the comercial saws it seems that the blade is only supported in the centre and the back of the blade and the teeth are hanging out in thin air. To my way of thinking.......No comments from the gallery please..opcorn:.... this would tend to stretch, ever so slightly, the inner section of the blade while leaving the outer edges their original length. A machine that reverses this tendency by either compressing the centre section of the blade or stretching the outer edges of that blade would reduce the cupping effect.
I somehow think that it would be better to remove the cause of the problem than to spend time and money fixing the damage it caused.
I recently had the pleasure of playing with a section of well-worn band blade from a comercial mill. It was 8" wide from the back edge to the gullet of the teeth and the motor driving this thing was well over 200HP. There was no sign of cupping on that section of blade, it was as flat as one of my Mother's Scones.
Got me flame-proof suit ready:jester:


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 15, 2010)

FJH said:


> Al this is a tidy unit!
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheet-Metal-ROT...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48395a5e5c


Forgot to comment on this before, it reminds me of some of the Roper Whitney units, which are also compact and clean, but pricey. I like compact and clean.


Old Hilly said:


> I somehow think that it would be better to remove the cause of the problem than to spend time and money fixing the damage it caused.


I agree with what you say, just not sure what you hypothesize completely making sense. The problem could be in use, or IOW, the force applied to the blade as one mills. Grain and/or knots could be the cause of it.

Vertical bandsaws don't seem to exhibit this, at least it hasn't been a problem that has driven the users to use band rollers. Most all of the vertical bandsaws use crowned wheels, AFAIK, and it doesn't seem to effect the blade. And the cost of vertical bandsaw blades is substantially higher, so if this was really a problem the users would have found out a fix for it already it would seem. Just sayin'...


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## Old Hilly (Feb 15, 2010)

Alan, when I first saw some of the comercial bandsaw wheels that used a "B" section V-belt as the drive wheel I was somewhat confused. All the bandsaws I had seen and used used a crowned rubber wheel that fully supported the blade. I wondered just how critical it was to keep these narrow drive wheels lined up so that the blade tracked properly. Then I looked at the saws that used car tyres and wheels and thought that they seemed more like a conventional bandsaw wheel that offered support for the whole blade.
It would be interesting to find out if these narrow band-wheels are the ones that cause the blades to "cup" and so need rolling, or if it is a problem with all types of band-wheels, be they Pneumatic wheels, crowned hard rubber wheels or ridgid V-belt lined pulleys.
My previous comments were more of a question rather than a statement of fact but it would be interesting to collect some statistics from users and then see how things go after that.
Dennis.


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## FJH (Feb 15, 2010)

*Peanut galley*

Andys comment Of crowned wheels!
If I didn't have flat wheels I wouldn't have anything to comment on here!
My wheels are flat and are tracked by a mild toe in on the idle wheel!
(always lightly agianst the guide rollers) 
I still get the odd cupped blade.
My thought on the cupping is more along the lines of running with the throat too wide while sawing and pushing too hard too long with a dull blade, simply tring to pull too much from one blade sharpe!
Just a peanut gallery opinion!

Fred


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 15, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Alan, when I first saw some of the comercial bandsaw wheels that used a "B" section V-belt as the drive wheel I was somewhat confused. All the bandsaws I had seen and used used a crowned rubber wheel that fully supported the blade. I wondered just how critical it was to keep these narrow drive wheels lined up so that the blade tracked properly. Then I looked at the saws that used car tyres and wheels and thought that they seemed more like a conventional bandsaw wheel that offered support for the whole blade.


Yeah, some of the guys that build the tire mills tout them as being smoother running than steel wheels, but I'm not sure...seems to be several factors in play and the air tires might also avoid the real problem, as you suggested above.


Old Hilly said:


> It would be interesting to find out if these narrow band-wheels are the ones that cause the blades to "cup" and so need rolling, or if it is a problem with all types of band-wheels, be they Pneumatic wheels, crowned hard rubber wheels or ridgid V-belt lined pulleys.
> My previous comments were more of a question rather than a statement of fact but it would be interesting to collect some statistics from users and then see how things go after that.
> Dennis.


One thing I got to thinking after reading your posts was that there is a glaring difference between vertical and horizontal band saws in that the vertical requires that you push the material over the table, where the horizontal moves the head over the material. I could see how it would place more stress in specific situations, since your really relying on the head to stay stable, hence why most folks like the 4 post carriage better than a 2 post and/or cantilever head , for instance.


FJH said:


> Andys comment Of crowned wheels!
> If I didn't have flat wheels I wouldn't have anything to comment on here!
> My wheels are flat and are tracked by a mild toe in on the idle wheel!
> (always lightly agianst the guide rollers)
> ...


Do the blades cup the same as the crown on the wheels? Blade support could surely be a reason, but in some cases it seems hard to adjust the throat as logs are not square by default.

Dennis makes a good point though, at least in understanding what the real cause of the problem is, I'm not sure any of us know that yet, not that having a band roller to fix that issue wouldn't be good...


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## redprospector (Feb 15, 2010)

FJH said:


> Andys comment Of crowned wheels!
> If I didn't have flat wheels I wouldn't have anything to comment on here!
> My wheels are flat and are tracked by a mild toe in on the idle wheel!
> (always lightly agianst the guide rollers)
> ...



In my opinion, if the blade is alway's rubbing against the flange on the guide rollers that is going to be really hard on the blade back. Unless you are running a bearing back guide, but even then it's hard on the blade.
If your wheels aren't as wide as the body of the band, you would still get the same effect. Having a crown in the wheel may aggrivate the cupping, but allows you to track the blade without having to always run on the flange of the guides. Everything you do has a trade off. 
Pushing too hard, too long with a dull blade will result in cracks in the gullets, and broken blades. If you continually run with the guides wide open, while cutting smaller stuff, it will result in cracks in the back of the blade. 
Again in my opinion, cupping is a direct result of the blade continually going around the wheel's.

A lot of people running 1 1/4" blades don't have as much problem with the blade cupping as those of us running 1 1/2" or wider blades. As I stated earlier everything you do has a trade off. If you have the HP. you can push a 1 1/2" blade quite a bit harder than a 1 1/4" blade, so to me it's worth a little more maintenance. It may not be to you.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 15, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Andrew might just have a point about his bandsaw not cupping blades. I have never had that problem with my small bandsaw either and I suspect that it is because the blade is fully supported on a slightly crowned wheel. Looking at some of the comercial saws it seems that the blade is only supported in the centre and the back of the blade and the teeth are hanging out in thin air. To my way of thinking.......No comments from the gallery please..opcorn:.... this would tend to stretch, ever so slightly, the inner section of the blade while leaving the outer edges their original length. A machine that reverses this tendency by either compressing the centre section of the blade or stretching the outer edges of that blade would reduce the cupping effect.
> I somehow think that it would be better to remove the cause of the problem than to spend time and money fixing the damage it caused.
> I recently had the pleasure of playing with a section of well-worn band blade from a comercial mill. It was 8" wide from the back edge to the gullet of the teeth and the motor driving this thing was well over 200HP. There was no sign of cupping on that section of blade, it was as flat as one of my Mother's Scones.
> Got me flame-proof suit ready:jester:



Dennis,
I think you've got the principle of the cause down, but sometimes removing the cause of one problem causes other problems. I have spent a lot of time using both upright stationary band saws, and band saw mills. Most upright band saw's are running fairly narrow blades that have much less set in the teeth. They are designed to cut (usually dry) dimensional lumber. The blades for these band mill's are designed to cut green wood 24" to 30" wide, so the set can be from .020" to .028". If the wheel is as wide as the blade it will very quickly take the set out of the inside of the blade as it goes around the wheel under tension. To me the logical remedy is to narrow the wheels and deal with the consequences by doing like I used to do, and throwing blades away when they quit cutting well, or to build or buy a band roller to keep them in shape.
There is a trade off for everything you do.

Andy


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## FJH (Feb 15, 2010)

*Flat wheels*

Well up to this point the roller guides have done a good job !I run hydralic oil as lube constantly the continus ride does not seem to effect this!I have blades that have lasted a very log time others don't!Having said that, I used to runn water I had alot more blade failures since changing to oil Cooling may have alot more to do with things here than we know!Cupping wize!


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## redprospector (Feb 15, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Do the blades cup the same as the crown on the wheels? Blade support could surely be a reason, but in some cases it seems hard to adjust the throat as logs are not square by default.



Actually, the blade will cup the opposite from the crown on the wheels.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 15, 2010)

FJH said:


> Well up to this point the roller guides have done a good job !I run hydralic oil as lube constantly the continus ride does not seem to effect this!I have blades that have lasted a very log time others don't!Having said that, I used to runn water I had alot more blade failures since changing to oil Cooling may have alot more to do with things here than we know!Cupping wize!



Good deal. As I said, that was my opinion. Another opinion I have is that if it's working good, there's no need to fix it.  There's more than one way to skin a cat with these machines.

Andy


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## FJH (Feb 15, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Good deal. As I said, that was my opinion. Another opinion I have is that if it's working good, there's no need to fix it.  There's more than one way to skin a cat with these machines.
> 
> Andy



you bet!


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## bobsreturn (Feb 15, 2010)

it would seem that the english wheel type rollers put some tension in the blade . but how do you know how how much tension to put in the blade ? any information available? cheers Bob up top down under.


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## Andrew96 (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm not going to quote bits and pieces...since you know who you are but have you thought of runout?...causing varied stretching across the band. This seems to be a vertical BS vs BMill issue. Most vertical band mills run some kind of rubber rim/tire whatever...fact is, flexible surface...usually fully support band...and not as rigid a machine (whole unit not as rigid). 3 Pluses towards keeping a band flat. 
BTW..the crowned rims are there to make a band have the ability to track straight...the byproduct is they allow clearance for some set. Not much though.
From what I know BMills (not much) some of you are running more rigid rims..and due to the increased set of the larger bands....cannot run with a fully supported band around the rim. The head units are much more rigid and are higher powered. Much harder on Bands I'd think...Band Mills run a little thicker...but much wider...same spring steel band. Seems pretty easy for me to see what 'cups' a band. I'd say you guys run nice high tension...followed with an unsupported band....on a machine that requires the band to stretch for runnout...or the forces of cutting since the hard wheels are not able to absorb it all. That's a lot of stretch to deal with...without anyway to absorb it! The Vertical BS can softly direct these forces into the rubber wheels...the BMs that are rigid...the band takes the beating..down the center (where it is supported). Of course this is going to beat the center 'out' making your band longer in the center. Now you need to roll it. I'd say..cupped bands have the potential to be created by the design....but only created when you work them hard with lots of stretching forces created by High tension, Drivewheel runout + cutting forces. 
$0.02 from a VBS owner who's never seen a cupped band. Of course I won't cup a band....I cannot run with that high a tension...I cannot work that band to create any heat...any forces/vibration/runnout that I do put into the band are quickly absorbed into the rubber rims of my baby 5hp machine.


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## redprospector (Feb 16, 2010)

bobsreturn said:


> it would seem that the english wheel type rollers put some tension in the blade . but how do you know how how much tension to put in the blade ? any information available? cheers Bob up top down under.



Trial, and error. When I got my band roller I started using light pressure, checking, use a little more pressure, check, etc.etc.
After a few blades you kinda get a feel for about how much to use. I try to err on the light side because it's easier to add a little and roll it again than to turn the blade inside out and start over.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 16, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> I'm not going to quote bits and pieces...since you know who you are but have you thought of runout?...causing varied stretching across the band. This seems to be a vertical BS vs BMill issue. Most vertical band mills run some kind of rubber rim/tire whatever...fact is, flexible surface...usually fully support band...and not as rigid a machine (whole unit not as rigid). 3 Pluses towards keeping a band flat.
> BTW..the crowned rims are there to make a band have the ability to track straight...the byproduct is they allow clearance for some set. Not much though.
> From what I know BMills (not much) some of you are running more rigid rims..and due to the increased set of the larger bands....cannot run with a fully supported band around the rim. The head units are much more rigid and are higher powered. Much harder on Bands I'd think...Band Mills run a little thicker...but much wider...same spring steel band. Seems pretty easy for me to see what 'cups' a band. I'd say you guys run nice high tension...followed with an unsupported band....on a machine that requires the band to stretch for runnout...or the forces of cutting since the hard wheels are not able to absorb it all. That's a lot of stretch to deal with...without anyway to absorb it! The Vertical BS can softly direct these forces into the rubber wheels...the BMs that are rigid...the band takes the beating..down the center (where it is supported). Of course this is going to beat the center 'out' making your band longer in the center. Now you need to roll it. I'd say..cupped bands have the potential to be created by the design....but only created when you work them hard with lots of stretching forces created by High tension, Drivewheel runout + cutting forces.
> $0.02 from a VBS owner who's never seen a cupped band. Of course I won't cup a band....I cannot run with that high a tension...I cannot work that band to create any heat...any forces/vibration/runnout that I do put into the band are quickly absorbed into the rubber rims of my baby 5hp machine.



I think you and I are in agreement on a lot of the things that causes the band to cup. Another thing to consider is that generally a blade on a mill will cut more linial ft in a day than a blade on a band saw in anything less than an industrial shop will cut in a month. These blades take a beating. Not to mention that some mill's will try to turn the blade's at over 6000 lin ft per min., that opens another can of worms. 
In my experience, if the blade on a band mill is generating much heat at all, something is not set up right, or the blade is dull or underset. I can make a cut 16' long in a 12" wide cant, and the blade won't be even warm when it exit's the can't. Some guy's run water on their blade's constantly as a "lube" or coolant. I basicly run mine dry, and use an ocasional squirt of diesel/oil mix to keep the pitch cleaned off the blade.
I'm running about 56 hp on my band mill, which could be part of the cupping. But I wouldn't consider a 5hp vertical band saw a baby. 

Andy


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## Old Hilly (Feb 17, 2010)

Well, after reading Andy's post about the direction of the cup in the bands, I am going to shut up and go to my room! For the edges of the band to bow outward seems to defy my limited logic but if that's what they do, then that's what they do and I am now officially confused.:help:
Does the shop-bought band-roller have 2 paralell rollers or a pair of convex & concave rollers to stetch the centre of the band to match the outer edges?
Dennis (the confused).


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## Andrew96 (Feb 17, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I think you and I are in agreement on a lot of the things that causes the band to cup. Another thing to consider is that generally a blade on a mill will cut more linial ft in a day than a blade on a band saw in anything less than an industrial shop will cut in a month. These blades take a beating. Not to mention that some mill's will try to turn the blade's at over 6000 lin ft per min.,



Yes you guys certainly run these bands hard. Now we know why...well some agree...go back to fixing it...I want to see how you guys are going to do it since I don't have this problem on my baby VBS. 



redprospector said:


> I'm running about 56 hp on my band mill, which could be part of the cupping. But I wouldn't consider a 5hp vertical band saw a baby.
> Andy



OK, I don't know why I thought most of these stationary band mills were running say up to 30hp max...but 56hp!!! I'm sure you can motor right through anything. Clearly if after hitting it with up to 56hp you still have a cold blade...you must have the sharpening...setting properly sorted out. 
My baby bandsaw...Thanks....Though I only have a small shop...I didn't think a 5hp vertical was that small either (enough for what I do) but in comparison.....come on...56hp must be some 4 cylinder 4 stroke. I cannot imagine the forces on that band.


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## Andrew96 (Feb 17, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Well, after reading Andy's post about the direction of the cup in the bands, I am going to shut up and go to my room! For the edges of the band to bow outward seems to defy my limited logic but if that's what they do, then that's what they do and I am now officially confused.:help:



Dennis.....come back out of your room and play with the kids....I've tried to reread everything Andy said and don't know where you saw him say the bands were cupped (with the band in normal cutting position) with the cup in. Now one of us has to be wrong but I thought it was cupped out (the middle of the band in normal cutting position...out, while the edges of the band (front and back) are in. I think they bend out like you also think they 'should'. If I'm wrong...I'll go to my room.


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## FJH (Feb 17, 2010)

*Blade cup*

My observation as well is the cup is usually towards the the wheel as Andy hs said .
In answer to the other question!I beleve Andy stated earlier that one of the band rollers rollers is flat and one has a bead type affair on it! 
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/redprospector/Saw mill/Plansdrawings.jpg

Anyway I managed to get my hands on one of the above units so Im going to do some mods to one of the rollers and see what washes out!I got the unit for 170 bucks with taxes in and a 1/2 tank of gas so a bit cheaper than having it shiped but not much!
When i get to it I'll let you guys know what happens!


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 17, 2010)

FJH said:


> My observation as well is the cup is usually towards the the wheel as Andy hs said .
> In answer to the other question!I beleve Andy stated earlier that one of the band rollers rollers is flat and one has a bead type affair on it!
> http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/redprospector/Saw mill/Plansdrawings.jpg
> 
> ...


I'm watching to see how this all works out. Does your unit have the tension adjuster for the beading wheels? Did you get the green unit that looked clean and compact?


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## Old Hilly (Feb 17, 2010)

Well, when I read this.....
"Actually, the blade will cup the opposite from the crown on the wheels.

Andy"
I sort of got the idea that the cup was outward, ie. the exact oposite of what I would have expected, hence my total confusion and retirement to a quiet corner for a glass of medicinal spirits and herbal extracts.
Can someone eggsplain whats goin' on?
Dennis (the still confuzeled)


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> OK, I don't know why I thought most of these stationary band mills were running say up to 30hp max...but 56hp!!! I'm sure you can motor right through anything. Clearly if after hitting it with up to 56hp you still have a cold blade...you must have the sharpening...setting properly sorted out.
> My baby bandsaw...Thanks....Though I only have a small shop...I didn't think a 5hp vertical was that small either (enough for what I do) but in comparison.....come on...56hp must be some 4 cylinder 4 stroke. I cannot imagine the forces on that band.



Yep, you're right 4 cylinder 4 stroke. 1600cc dual port VW engine with a few modifications. Some of the newer mills come with diesel engines that are 65 horses or more. I built this one before that option was available (or at least common).










Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Well, when I read this.....
> "Actually, the blade will cup the opposite from the crown on the wheels.
> 
> Andy"
> ...



Hahaha. Don't retire, this is where it get's interesting. 
Bear with me as I try to explain. This is why I never became a teacher. 
As the blade passes over the band wheel under tension it will bend in the direction of the crown, actually moving the molecules of the steel slightly (stretching). Although the blades I use are only .042" thick, the surface in contact with the crown of the wheel will actually "stretch" slightly more than the surface that is not in contact (the outside of the blade). Added to that, the fact that the front (tooth side), and the back of the blade are basicly staying the same size as they started out, the inside center portion of the blade is becoming more "stretched" than the outside center portion, the cup will be the opposite direction of the crown. 
If that didn't confuse you, I don't know what will. 
Now this dosen't happen all at once. On a new blade it may take 8 or 10 sharpenings to get to the point that a blade just won't cut right. I generally get between 700 and 1000 bd. ft. of lumber out of a blade before it needs to be resharpened. After a blade has been rolled, I've found that about every 4 or so sharpenings it needs to be rolled again.

Clear as Mud?

Andy


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## FJH (Feb 17, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> I'm watching to see how this all works out. Does your unit have the tension adjuster for the beading wheels? Did you get the green unit that looked clean and compact?



No I went as cheap as I could get and don't forget this will and can be used for its origanal purpose.That way its not a total throw away if it don't straighten bands well! We'll see!

http://www.kmstools.com/magnum-bead-roller-2935

Andy It really does make sence to some degree I have to beleive its more the push than the wheels its self that does this thou as I stated my wheels are flat so in my case the wheels have no reason to cup the blade When you first start into a log your working on a small surface yet you have to keep your guides quite a bit apart that in my mind puts a lot stress on the blade with no real backing
so you end up pushing and sretching the blade in that manner between the two guides With a lot of emty space not backed up.It can be as much as 3-6 inches of air blade between the guide at times At least on my mill!


I like the VW mill awsume!1600 dual port same as my dune buggy! Single carb or dual?I got dual solex on my buggy!
Vdubs lend them selves well to this stuff as well as many other uses, I may convet the hyda mill to vw some day we'll see!
you got hydralics right ? Do you run that off the jack shaft at the back?


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2010)

Fred,
I really think that the guides being a little far apart has less to do with the cupping than you think, but that's not to say it has nothing to do with it.
Your wheels being flat may help with the cupping, but try this. Lay a piece of sheet metal on a hard flat surface, and give it a good sharp rap with the peining end of a ball pein hammer. Now turn the hammer over and give it a good sharp rap with the flat end. The place you hit with the peining end will be distorted. The place you hit with the flat part of the head will be distorted too, but to a much lesser degree. So in that theory it would take longer to cup the blade on flat wheels.
You just can't continualy move metal around a wheel under tension without having an effect on it.

My engine came off a buddy's baja bug when he upgraded to an 1835 cc engine. It has a single carb in the tradition of the KISS method of engineering.
I went with the VW because it was an inexpensive alternative to a big Kohler, or Honda.............engine. Parts are relatively cheap, and it's almost as simple to work on as a chainsaw. Plus I got a lot more torque to play with than the Kohler etc has. It's a win, win proposition using the VW for this application in my book.

Andy


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## FJH (Feb 17, 2010)

*Vw*

About the bands Your likly correct!
You have hydralics correct?Do You run the pump off the jack shaft on the flywheel?Extra belt!?


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2010)

FJH said:


> About the bands Your likly correct!
> You have hydralics correct?Do You run the pump off the jack shaft on the flywheel?Extra belt!?



Yep, hydraulics are the only way to fly.
Yeah, I just ran an extra belt to the pump. You can see the pump in the left side of the 1st pic I posted. It's an old "pedistal" style pump that was made to take the side load of running a belt. That simplified things quite a bit, but I've been thinking about upgrading to a little bigger pump. We'll see what happens.
This pic shows where I mounted the tank, pump, and lines.






Andy


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## Old Hilly (Feb 18, 2010)

Well Andy, I was half right. I understood how the problem was caused, that part was as simple as the new Milenium actually starting in 2001, not 2000 like we all celebrated (which was a great excuse to have yet another bloody great grog-on and fireworks but we only got to the grog-on- no fireworks down here).
The tricky part is working out why the band decides to curl in the oposite direction to the way it was formed:help:.
Either way, how do we stop all this from happening? Or better still, how do we fix the cupped bands? Fixing the bands might be an easier solution and it may give us another chance to check the bands for possible cracks etc. We also get another tool to play with which will give us more time in the shed / shop where we can relax and drink some malted beverage.
As I understand it, the machine is just a couple of rollers that the blade runs between, and in doing so the blade is flattened. Would it be a silly idea to incorporate these rollers into the bandsaw so that the blade is constantly being flattened as it is being used?
Dennis.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Would it be a silly idea to incorporate these rollers into the bandsaw so that the blade is constantly being flattened as it is being used?
> Dennis.


I like the idea, but I suspect it would make the blade brittle by having it rolled constantly. I could be wrong, but that's my first thought. Maybe a set of rubber rollers that would do simlar with less pressure?


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## Andrew96 (Feb 18, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> The tricky part is working out why the band decides to curl in the oposite direction to the way it was formed:help:.
> 
> Would it be a silly idea to incorporate these rollers into the bandsaw so that the blade is constantly being flattened as it is being used?
> Dennis.



Though I'm not the one trying to run cupped bands..I don't understand why the cup went the wrong way either..and I mouthed off poor Dennis thinking I did...sorry about that....I didn't get my ball peen and some sheet metal out..but I do know which way the metal would bend...towards the side I would hit. Cupped edges up from the workbench. Why wouldn't the band do the same? Are you sure you didn't turn the band inside out when you rolled out the cup?

As for rolling a cup out of a band constantly...that's a recipe for work hardening and cracking for sure. I don't need a cool dune buggy sounding 4 cylinder mill to predict that.

Nice dune buggy mill you made. I saw a picture of the engine when I started searching around here years ago. I never imagined it was on a mill. Looks fun to run.


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## redprospector (Feb 18, 2010)

Ok guys, I may be incapable of explaining why the blade cups the opposite direction of what we think it should, but that dosen't change the fact that it does. It may be one of those things we just have to accept and say; Damn, who'da thunk it?
The ball pein hammer thing was probably a bad idea on my part in this conversation. I was using it to show that whether your wheels are flat, or crowned it would have an effect on the metal.

On another note, we don't have to re-invent the wheel here, so all we really need to know is what has happened. 
It takes less than 5 minutes to check a blade for flatness, set up the band roller, and roll it flat. Even if you have to roll it twice it's under 5 minutes. Done while you're sharpening & setting, so it's really not that big a deal. You may not have a problem at all with cupping, but if you do you have a choice to make. Either run it until it quits cutting right & throw it away, send them to someone who has a band roller, buy a band roller, or build a band roller. Any way you do it, if you're going to keep cutting with them you have to keep them flat. If you buy or build a band roller you will probably start understanding what I am trying, but failing to explain by watching it work.

Andy


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## FJH (Feb 18, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Ok guys, I may be incapable of explaining why the blade cups the opposite direction of what we think it should, but that dosen't change the fact that it does. It may be one of those things we just have to accept and say; Damn, who'da thunk it?
> The ball pein hammer thing was probably a bad idea on my part in this conversation. I was using it to show that whether your wheels are flat, or crowned it would have an effect on the metal.
> 
> On another note, we don't have to re-invent the wheel here, so all we really need to know is what has happened.
> ...



So speeking of rolling,you roll before you set and sharpen correct!
Or can it be done at any point if you got a problem blade?


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## redprospector (Feb 18, 2010)

FJH said:


> So speeking of rolling,you roll before you set and sharpen correct!
> Or can it be done at any point if you got a problem blade?



I generally do it before I set & sharpen, but it can be done any time.

Andy


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## bobsreturn (Feb 18, 2010)

does any one have a photo of a band roller ? the actual rollers please! are they shaped like an english wheel? have a friend who runs a bandsaw with 5inch wide bands . some cut well most dont . local saw doctor who sharpens for him ,and supplys the blades cant seem to get it right . talks of tension in the blade? and the ones that cut a few logs crack in the gullet . any info most welcome , cheers from down under


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

bobsreturn said:


> does any one have a photo of a band roller ? the actual rollers please! are they shaped like an english wheel? have a friend who runs a bandsaw with 5inch wide bands . some cut well most dont . local saw doctor who sharpens for him ,and supplys the blades cant seem to get it right . talks of tension in the blade? and the ones that cut a few logs crack in the gullet . any info most welcome , cheers from down under


You should start out by reading this thread. Then you will know that the top has a bead on it, and the bottom roller is flat.

Andy offered to get some pics but his roller is out in the shed and he's babysitting his wife who just had surgery not long ago.

I would say be patient, the pics will come, and in the mean time you can start by reading this thread from the start to the end.

I was going to say "Welcome to AS". But I think I should say, "Congrats on getting the courage to post!"


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## FJH (Feb 18, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> You should start out by reading this thread. Then you will know that the top has a bead on it, and the bottom roller is flat.
> 
> Andy offered to get some pics but his roller is out in the shed and he's babysitting his wife who just had surgery not long ago.
> 
> ...



Yup read the hole thing except the parts where we go off track a bit!
Even that stuff is good reading!By the way I'll be a little bit getting on the bead roller to band roll conversion so don't wait on me for my impressions of the home build!I'll post when Ive tried it and give ya a yay or nay on it!


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## Old Hilly (Feb 19, 2010)

Bob, I bought a section of band from a chap in Dorigo, NSW which had a lot of gullet cracks in it. This chap said the band was too thick for the diameter of the wheel it was running on. He had switched to a thinner band and thaat seemed to have solved his problem. my local saw-doctor has told me the same thing on a couple of occasions when I wanted wider blades for my 12" saw. Once I get over 3/4" wide I go up a gage in thicknedd and blades crack in the gullet very quickly.
Dennis.


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## redprospector (Mar 16, 2010)

Ok, I finally got across town to my shed. Not much light, and all I had was my phone but here's what I got.



























Andy


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## FJH (Mar 17, 2010)

Thanx Andy you the man!
The bead roller I bought is almost identical to that just got to make the one wheel flat and some guide stuff to guide the blade thru straight!
I'll get on this in a week or two have some other pressing issues at the moment!


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## TraditionalTool (Mar 17, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Ok, I finally got across town to my shed. Not much light, and all I had was my phone but here's what I got.


+1 to what FJH said, you the man, Andy!

Hard to see the guide too well...would love to see that 2nd to the last pic with more lighting.


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## bobsreturn (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks for the photos quite helpfull , always a good idea to get a positive idea of whats needed for a project . what width blades can you roll with it? thank you Bob


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## mountainlake (Mar 17, 2010)

What size blades are you guys running, I've never had a problem cutting straight without rolling with my 1-1/4 x 42 thousands blades even after 10 sharpenings. Some are under 1" before they break. Steve


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## redprospector (Mar 17, 2010)

Ok, I was able to lighten the darkest pic's up a little. 











Andy


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## redprospector (Mar 17, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> What size blades are you guys running, I've never had a problem cutting straight without rolling with my 1-1/4 x 42 thousands blades even after 10 sharpenings. Some are under 1" before they break. Steve



Steve,
I'm running 1 1/2" blades. Before I started rolling my blades I could get 8 or 10 sharpenings before they just weren't worth the trouble. Since I started rolling blades I've got blades that have probably 20 sharpenings on them. All blades will eventually fatigue and break. How many bd ft, or hours can you run a blade before it need's to be sharpened? Are you getting the most out of your blades? 
If what you're doing is working for you, great.
I've spent a lot of time and money to find what works for me, and I'll be happy to share what I've learned with anyone. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Mar 17, 2010)

bobsreturn said:


> thanks for the photos quite helpfull , always a good idea to get a positive idea of whats needed for a project . what width blades can you roll with it? thank you Bob



Bob,
I'd have to dig out the paperwork to see what size blades they say. But I know it'll roll 1 1/4" & 1 1/2". Just looking at the setup I'd say it'll go up to probably 2" and down to whatever you could get under the bead without flattening out the set.

Andy


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## bobsreturn (Mar 17, 2010)

thank you i run 2in blades that are stellite tipped .no setting needed , and apreciate your new photos , may make a roller ,as havent found anything i could buy local . cheers bob


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## mountainlake (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm thinking the 1-1/4 blades get by just fine without rolling but wider blades need rolling. Steve


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## Ted J (Mar 17, 2010)

That more better???


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## redprospector (Mar 17, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> I'm thinking the 1-1/4 blades get by just fine without rolling but wider blades need rolling. Steve



Could be.

Andy


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## redprospector (Mar 17, 2010)

Hey Ted, you're better at this stuff than I am.

Andy


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## Ted J (Mar 17, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Hey Ted, you're better at this stuff than I am.
> 
> Andy



Seems I'm getting better though.... I have youse guys pics to practice on :jawdrop: ... but I'm no magician either.  LOL

Ted


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## Old Hilly (Mar 17, 2010)

Do these rollers need to gave matching profiles, ie. one roller is concave, the other is convex, both with the same radius curve? I have in my junk box some self-aligning bearings that fit into a pressed metal housing. The outer shell of the bearing is convex and so would press down on the centre of the band and place no pressure on the outer edges. The only concern I have is for the other roller. Could it be made of something like hard rubber that would compress ever so slightly to take the shape of the steel roller? Varying the ammount of pressure applied to the steel roller would alter the depth of the indentation and so change the amount the blade was flattened, or perhaps over-flattened so that when the pressure is released the blade springs back to "flat", sort of like pushing a saw tooth just a fraction too far when you re-set the teeth.
Sounds good to me!


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## TraditionalTool (Mar 18, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Do these rollers need to gave matching profiles, ie. one roller is concave, the other is convex, both with the same radius curve? I have in my junk box some self-aligning bearings that fit into a pressed metal housing. The outer shell of the bearing is convex and so would press down on the centre of the band and place no pressure on the outer edges. The only concern I have is for the other roller. Could it be made of something like hard rubber that would compress ever so slightly to take the shape of the steel roller? Varying the ammount of pressure applied to the steel roller would alter the depth of the indentation and so change the amount the blade was flattened, or perhaps over-flattened so that when the pressure is released the blade springs back to "flat", sort of like pushing a saw tooth just a fraction too far when you re-set the teeth.
> Sounds good to me!


'Hilly,

I think what we have been able to gleam out of this thread is that the profile of the rollers is that the top one has a bead, and the bottom is flat. Several of the beading machines have a bead on top and matching profile for it, but the band roller is not like that, it's as shown in the pics.

The pics say it all, although hard to see, beggars can't be picky.:blush:

Seems that the bead rollers have what is needed by swapping top/bottom rollers with different sets. I was just looking at the Beading Tool on the Harbor Freight site. Odd that they call it a metal fabrication tool, because if you download the manual they call it a beading tool. 

This is very similar to what FJH got in Canada.

The Harbor Freight model I linked to has a 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" bead. From the looks of the profile of the Cooks band roller, the bead is bigger. But I don't think that would matter as long as the bead was round in profile.

Andy, can you measure the width of the bead, and the height of the bead? I think I can see the pics there pretty good, but not clear how the guide and/or adjustment works to determine how much of the blade will run through the roller? Can you try to explain that? I'd like to know the sizes on those pics, like the total diameter of the rollers, the width of the rollers, and the height and width of the top bead portion.

Thanks for your help.


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## redprospector (Mar 18, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Andy, can you measure the width of the bead, and the height of the bead? I think I can see the pics there pretty good, but not clear how the guide and/or adjustment works to determine how much of the blade will run through the roller? Can you try to explain that? I'd like to know the sizes on those pics, like the total diameter of the rollers, the width of the rollers, and the height and width of the top bead portion.
> 
> Thanks for your help.



I'll try to make time to get some measurements for you in the next few days.
The band roller is in a shed across town, so I can't just run out the door & get them, or I would.
The guide is just a fence (kinda like a tablesaw), the pedistal it sits on has a slotted hole with a bolt & wing nut for adjustment. You just determine which part of the band body you want to roll, and set the fence to where the bead is running on that part.

Andy


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## TraditionalTool (Mar 18, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I'll try to make time to get some measurements for you in the next few days.
> The band roller is in a shed across town, so I can't just run out the door & get them, or I would.
> The guide is just a fence (kinda like a tablesaw), the pedistal it sits on has a slotted hole with a bolt & wing nut for adjustment. You just determine which part of the band body you want to roll, and set the fence to where the bead is running on that part.
> 
> Andy


Andy,

Ok, when you get over there. I know the feeling, my yard is 20 miles away so I can't just pop over there either. I am going there today though...

We're working on fixing my mud problem once and for all...


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## deeker (Apr 20, 2010)

Looks like I am buying the Cook's roller.

Wish it was less expensive!!!

Ordered it today, will be here tuesday the 27th.

I need it bad...and am a lot afraid of the trial and error of the bead roller.


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## FJH (Apr 20, 2010)

From what I can see from Andys pics The beed roller is just about Identical in design to the cooks band roller I have yet to get mine set up but when it do I'll let you guys know how it works!I'm likly going to Need a little coaching from Andy on its use ! Ive been busy with other crap latly and seems every time I get some free time it aint as free As I would like!
Unless you know somthing I don't, I would get a bead roller!
They are virtualy the same animal!


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## deeker (Apr 22, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Alan,
> I've got one, but I haven't used it lately since I haven't ran my mill for a while. Right now I'm "babysitting" my wife while she recovers from surgery, and we've had quite a bit of snow so I'll have to dig my way into the shed.
> It may be a little while, but I'll share pic's.
> If anyone else has one feel free to share pic's before me.
> ...



When you bought the roller....was there an instructional DVD with it???

My roller will be here soon!!!!!!!!!!


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## TraditionalTool (Apr 22, 2010)

deeker said:


> When you bought the roller....was there an instructional DVD with it???
> 
> My roller will be here soon!!!!!!!!!!


Kevin,

Maybe it would be possible to get some better pics of it, I suspect there are some differences, although minor between the bead roller and the band roller. For all intents and purposes, it seems they would both serve the same purpose.

The results should be pretty easy to measure.

I'm going to look at my used Norwood blades to see if/how they are crowned. I'll try to remember to bring a small square to measure the flatness. I was looking at the Cooks blades today, and they were flat, definitely.

Even though the band roller is expensive, it is proven to work. We're still waiting for FJH to run one of his bands through the bead roller...I think at minimum it may require setting up some type of stop for the back of the blade, but maybe the bead roller can accommodate that as well???

I have a comfortable amount of new blades in my rack, and a pile of Norwood blades I can get sharpened...but I suspect that after I get through the Cooks blades I'll probably get them resharpened...

Shipping is a deal breaker on sharpening old blades, IMO.


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## deeker (Apr 22, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Maybe it would be possible to get some better pics of it, I suspect there are some differences, although minor between the bead roller and the band roller. For all intents and purposes, it seems they would both serve the same purpose.
> 
> ...




It is a pain, but when I have sent blades in that were diving...and they have only been sharpened 10 or so times....and come back...don't dive....and 10 more sharpenings....they are more than paid for.

I sharpen and set my own blades.....next week...I will roll them too.

Last count is about 80-100 blades that are diving and or rising in the cut.

Gets very cost effective that way.

Kevin


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## redprospector (Apr 23, 2010)

deeker said:


> When you bought the roller....was there an instructional DVD with it???
> 
> My roller will be here soon!!!!!!!!!!



Sorry Kevin, I haven't been on here in a while.
Yes, there is a video with it, and some vague written instructions. Not too hard to figure out with very little trial and error.
They send a machined straight edge piece of metal to check blades with, but a scraper blade (single edge razor) works good too. 
I know the band roller is a lot of money. But it will pay for itself many times over. Every time you roll a band that you couldn't use anymore, write down $25 (or whatever your blades cost) and see how long it is before the roller is making you money, instead of paying for itself. With 80 to 100 blades that need rolling, it won't be long. 
I know, I don't have to convince you. You've already got one coming. 

Andy


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## BobL (Sep 8, 2015)

I realise this is an old thread but some BSMs may like to see my home shop built band roller.

I had almost all the parts already in my shop picked up as scrap steel or used parts left over from other projects.
The 1/2HP 3P motor is from an old lathe that I upgraded, even the SHS from is a left over from a defunct project.
The only things I purchased specifically is the 4140 steel for the rollers, the motor speed controller and switchgear and assorted bolts etc.

It's still not finished but there's enough there to see how it looks.




Close up of rollers.
They are on a hinge so the top rollers can be lifterdoff to get the blade in/out and allow for variable pressure to be applied to the blade


The speed of the rollers is via a VFD - 60Hz generates about 85rpm but the VFD will allow speed control don as low as 20 to well over 100 RPM.
Additional slow speed control can be obtained by adjusting the pressure on the rollers with the big lever.



Here you can see the HD hinge arrangement and the drive reduction pulleys.
The top most pulley I extracted out of a washing machine but fabled up a HD hub with a 1/4" keyway. All the other pulleys etc were shop made.



The main things to do are harden and temper the rollers and make an in/out feed table and support roller setup for the blades.


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## Mike Van (Sep 10, 2015)

Nice work BobL, looks like that rig could straighten out a curved RR track -


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## BobL (Sep 11, 2015)

Mike Van said:


> Nice work BobL, looks like that rig could straighten out a curved RR track -


Cheers Mike - let it not be said that I ever "under engineered" anything I made.
The reality is I try to work with as many bits and pieces I already have on hand.


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## BobL (Sep 19, 2015)

I managed to do a bit more on the Band roller.

Magnetic in-feed and outside fences.




Outrigger rollers



Short Vid of it running at about 1/4 full speed.


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## BobL (Sep 26, 2015)

Rollers have been hardened and tempered and a coat of paint so it's ready.
The outrigger roller arms plug into holes in the main frame and can be removed for transport and storage


Front View


Back view


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