# The Helicopter Operation



## slowp (Aug 27, 2008)

Sorry, no pictures today. It was foggy and drizzly and I didn't want to distract the cutters because they are in some nasty stuff. But, unlike our local guys, these guys do not carpool. There were SEVEN pretty newish pickups parked at the end of the road. Because I didn't get up there until sevenish, there was no place good to park. I later brushed out more parking. I hiked up to check out things. They are cutting in an area full of snags and old blowdown. Seemed like everytime I appeared, there was a tree starting to go over and then hanging up. Unoriginal cussing. Another reason for no pictures. The cutting situation should get better on up the hill. One thing new to me, they wanted to brush out a small area in case a medivac emergency ever occurred. That was done in area that had been a yarder landing in the past. 

The logging helicopter won't be here for a while. There needs to be a lot more wood on the ground before that operation starts. Stay tuned....


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## .aspx (Aug 28, 2008)

subscribed opcorn: 

i haven't heard many heli-logging operations in the 'dro lately. during the beginning of summer it's like 1 a week. I remember a couple of months ago I was at the top of a hill watching 2 different operations at once.

when a heli-logging operation is going on i'm like a deer in headlights.


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## slowp (Aug 28, 2008)

Was up there today doing some log scaling...don't ask. They are still each driving one to a pickup, but I had parking space due to my work of yesterday.
These guys are from Montana and Idaho, and I don't think they like our weather. They do not dress in the local fashion of hickory shirt. They are wearing wool clothing and we are merely having a light drizzle and temps in the 50s. I was working out there in rainpants and t-shirt today. I guess we locals are accustomed to it. Sounds like Axmen will be appearing here next month. That'll be more competition for parking!


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## joesawer (Aug 30, 2008)

What helo company is doing the job?


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## slowp (Sep 9, 2008)

They are still cutting. One guy hit the top of the unit. They've been working weekends too. One of the guys found an old trail that makes going up or down easier. I walked on it yesterday. The trail looked like it had last been cleared out about 5 years ago and had a few old blazes on trees. It was not on any modern maps. I went back to the office and did some reasearch and the trail was shown as a trail on maps from the 1930s, 40s and then shown way shorter as a road was built in the 50s. It disappeared from the 1960s and on maps. It connects with a still shown on maps, maintained trail. Makes me want to take Twinkle up and clear it except I want to have a pack animal. One guy here claims he will get a big goat to pack his stuff. 
A trail, even an old unbrushed one, sure makes the hike up easier. 

I forgot my camera yesterday too. The loader has shown up. Flying might start next week.


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## slowp (Sep 16, 2008)

*They Are Flying Logs*

Drove up to the landing this morning. The shovel operator was there and he said they'd have the helicopter up in an hour or so. So, I put on boots while he moved slashpiles from the yarder operation, and moved trees that had to be cut for landing room.






After boots were put on, I decided to drive up to the service landing to see what was going on. It was busy and interesting. The crew was made up of Spanish speaking guys, who were efficient in their speech. When they needed to cuss, it was done in English, which only requires one syllable as opposed to the two or three syllable equivalent in Spanish. I rode a schoolbus with Spanish speakers so know the cuss words. They'd be talking to the mechanic? in Spanish, and he'd answer back in English. They seemed to understand each other. 

Suddenly, an important thought came to mind. I interrupted the conversation and asked their boss, "Have you notified anybody of your flight intentions in the area? The Navy flies through here most every day with some very fast jets." The answer was no, I thought you guys did that. So, I got some info and headed down the hill to the office. I called our people, who let the Navy (Whidbey Island NAS) know that the loggers were flying. Come to find out it is directly in the Navy's training route. That explains the 11AM daily scare. Anyway, we got that straightened out. I headed back up. 

I met part of the crew at the road junction. They were directing the pilot in the helicopter on how to find the landing and unit. We went up and operations began. Sure enough, around 11, the Navy made their presence known. But, they were flying bigger slower planes than the normal screamers.
They came close to the landing though. I don't think they had gotten the word or the little red X was put on their map yet. 

The helicopter is an old Huey. They say it is old and doesn't look too good but it makes them money. It flies a 4000 pound payload and they try for 2 minute turns. It flies for about an hour and then has to refuel. They are using rope chokers (I'll ask more questions about this) and a few turns came in with empty chokers....I assume the log slipped out along the way. Operations will be going every day the weather permits. I tried to get good pictures but was standing in a spot where I couldn't get helicopter AND load.
We have too many tall trees in the way. I hung around until they left for refueling, then I marked a few more trees for landing space and took off for another sale. I'm a bit cranky due to having a lot of logging going on and it being spread out all over the place.
Here's the camera results.


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## mimilkman1 (Sep 16, 2008)

Nice pics, keep em coming if you can.

Kyle


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## RPM (Sep 17, 2008)

_I'm a bit cranky due to having a lot of logging going on and it being spread out all over the place._

Oh come on slowp......you can never have too much logging going on, but it is a drag spending half your day in the pickup driving between operations. The weather here has been great lately so I'm in the bush as much as I can be.......on the down side the ground hornets are getting cranky - been stung everyday almost this past week.

We're doing a small heli sale as well, a couple of shots attached. We're using a Bell 214B...max payload at the end of the cycle around 7,000lbs with an average of 4,500 - 5,000lbs...less at the start of the cycle and as they burn fuel the loads get bigger. They're getting some nice cedar poles out of this permit along with some good size doug-fir (good for around here - up to 3o" dbh) Its mostly beetle kill so its relatively light. On a good day they are getting about 10 loads. They are aslo using rope and wire rope chokers.

I'm trying to get out to the landing but this sale has gone to another logging supervisor so its trying to explain why you're somewhere you shouldn't be if you get spotted by the boss!


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## hammerlogging (Sep 17, 2008)

slowp, would you go so far as to say these are gypo heliloggers, or are there lots of smaller porfessional outfits, other then the big guys that do some east coast work too?


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## slowp (Sep 17, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> slowp, would you go so far as to say these are gypo heliloggers, or are there lots of smaller porfessional outfits, other then the big guys that do some east coast work too?



I would consider these guys gypo loggers. They do drive much nicer pickups than the local gypos. I think the pilot who was flying today is the main owner.
I didn't make it up there today. Too much other stuff, including making the woods safe from a menacing fire...a barely smoldering punky log which was in a very nice huckleberry patch. A hunter left a note on my pickup about the fire so I went up and he showed me the way. He had worked his way through college by fighting fire in the 70s. We dug up a little smoke and dumped my half liter of water on it. Then the only 2 fire guys working today showed up. I got to name the fire, and then munched on huckleberries showing them where the hot spots were. 

The only other helicopter loggers I've worked with were Columbia and Erickson Air Crane. There was a company trying to get going based out of Central Oregon but they crashed their two helicopters, killing one pilot, and are no longer in business. I have another sale with helicopter units on it. It sold for a penny more than the advertised rate. We don't make money when helicopters are used--timber buyers have to bid low so they can make money on the helicopter sales. We get disappointed people because there is no extra money for special projects. These guys here sound like they might try to log all winter. There are some low units for them to do unless we have a winter like last year.


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## Humptulips (Sep 18, 2008)

slowp said:


> The only other helicopter loggers I've worked with were Columbia and Erickson Air Crane. There was a company trying to get going based out of Central Oregon but they crashed their two helicopters, killing one pilot, and are no longer in business. I have another sale with helicopter units on it. It sold for a penny more than the advertised rate. We don't make money when helicopters are used--timber buyers have to bid low so they can make money on the helicopter sales. We get disappointed people because there is no extra money for special projects. These guys here sound like they might try to log all winter. There are some low units for them to do unless we have a winter like last year.



OK, How much are they paying for this timber? What is the reason it has to be helicopter logged? Could it have been logged conventionally and generated more income for the FS?

Yea, Slowp I'm nosey. Hope you don't mind. I just can't see with the current price of logs and fuel how it could be economical to do this.


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## Gologit (Sep 18, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> OK, How much are they paying for this timber? What is the reason it has to be helicopter logged? Could it have been logged conventionally and generated more income for the FS?
> 
> Yea, Slowp I'm nosey. Hope you don't mind. I just can't see with the current price of logs and fuel how it could be economical to do this.



I was wondering about that, too. With four thousand pound turns, even with a two minute drag, you're not going to move very much wood when you factor in the actual flight time per day. Actual flight time is never as much as you want it to be. 

With the S-64 we used 1 million bf a week as a target figure and that was with twenty thousand pound turns whenever possible. I know the Huey doesn't cost as much to run as the Skycrane but a four thousand pound turn just doesn't sound like enough wood to make any money on. I hope I'm wrong.


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## slowp (Sep 18, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> OK, How much are they paying for this timber? What is the reason it has to be helicopter logged? Could it have been logged conventionally and generated more income for the FS?
> 
> Yea, Slowp I'm nosey. Hope you don't mind. I just can't see with the current price of logs and fuel how it could be economical to do this.



It has to be helicopter logged because if we built the roads we'd end up in court being sued by some group. The original logging plan done years ago for this area had it being conventionally logged. The roads were even flagged in.
It had skyline planned, uphill and downhill. But, an existing road would have needed a culvert replaced, it washed out. The planners are paranoid about any water work. The reason for the other helicopter units makes me sick to think about it. "We" decommissioned a road because it had a small slide. One small slide. And the timber in that area is in Matrix--supposed to be managed with timber as a priority. The helicopter units in that area would normally be good skidder ground. My knees will like those units. Same with the other helicopter units. The roads are there, but either were decommissioned in the past, or have washouts where the culverts were. Other than that, the roads still have rock on them, and would have worked great. When I worked here in the evil days (we made money for the treasury on timber) we rocked the heck out of the roads with the thought that they'd be used again.

The bid price on our two recently sold sales with helicopter has gone at the minimum bid. Only one bidder on each of them. This one went (I'm pulling this out of my sleepy head) for around $20 a ccf, or $40/mbf. It is very good wood. There are also some skidder and skyline units on it. The other sale with helicopter units and skidder units sold for $3.06 a ton. It too, is good second growth Doug fir and Hemlock. 

The road decommissioning seems to be done with mainly meeting mileage targets as the reason. There are plantations in that area that will be ready for harvest in ten years or so, but with the present mind set, they too will have to be helicoptered. The sale being planned now is going to be helicopter because of the fear of building roads and the certainty of lawsuits if roads are put in. That is the current state of mind here. Not necessarily for every forest, I think this one is on the extreme side. 

So, low stumpage $ for good trees is how it goes when helicopter is the logging method.


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## 2dogs (Sep 18, 2008)

So at 30 turns/hour times 4k lbs that is roughly 120,00 lbs per hour. That is 2 1/2 trucks per hour or $2,200.00 per hour worth of wood. I do not know how much it costs to fly that old Huey but it must be close to a grand/hour. Doesn't seem like much profit when you factor in all the other costs.


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## slowp (Sep 18, 2008)

This particular sale was purchased by a mill. They have said that the wood in that area is exactly the right size and quality for their operations. I expect they'll make up a little bit on the skidder operations.


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## RPM (Sep 18, 2008)

2dogs said:


> So at 30 turns/hour times 4k lbs that is roughly 120,00 lbs per hour. That is 2 1/2 trucks per hour or $2,200.00 per hour worth of wood. I do not know how much it costs to fly that old Huey but it must be close to a grand/hour. Doesn't seem like much profit when you factor in all the other costs.



The 214 that our contractor is using burns 150 gal/hr @ $6/gal so...$1000/hr + regular operating costs. They are close to $3,500/hr but that also includes pilots (this is what they charge when they go fire fighting and contract to gov't). On a good day they were getting 400m3/day - 10 loads. Between breakdowns, glitches, plugged landings, broken loaders / processors / weather they'll be going for a while. That max pyload is also at the end of the cycle when fuel is low. When we used the S-64 on the coast they averaged 13-15,000lbs over the cycyle with a couple of max turns @ 20,000lbs at the end. All of the helicopters have digital load cells on the hook so they can see what they are picking up and so they can tell the rigging crew how big a turns they are hooking up.

As with any logging operation, too make money....voulume, volume, volume


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## Gologit (Sep 18, 2008)

2dogs said:


> So at 30 turns/hour times 4k lbs that is roughly 120,00 lbs per hour. That is 2 1/2 trucks per hour or $2,200.00 per hour worth of wood. I do not know how much it costs to fly that old Huey but it must be close to a grand/hour. Doesn't seem like much profit when you factor in all the other costs.



Except...getting thirty turns an hour usually just doesn't happen. The turns won't be ready or the landing will be plugged or they'll try for too much and have to pick off a log or two, or the turn will hang up, or the chokers won't be ready to go back out from the landing, etc. etc. etc. Kinda like Cat logging but faster and noisier...and incredibly more expensive.

If there's too much wind you shut down. If it gets too hot your payload drops off dramatically. Fog, rain, icing conditions...everybody sits.

Fuel stops take up a good part of the day. If you have a good pump and you can hot fuel (fuel with the engine running) you can save a little time. You don't carry any more fuel than you need...low fuel maximizes payload.

Then there's maintenance. Helicopters, of any kind, are maintenance hogs. Scheduled maintenance is usually done after shutdown and at night but there's always the little things that come up during the day that have to be dealt with. And dealt with immediately. An engine or gearbox chip light, an overtemp, hydraulic pressure problems, fuel flow problems....if it can break on a helicopter it probably will. If somebody isn't keeping up with the logbooks and an engine or a gearbox or a servo or any of the many hour limited components times out you just shut it down until new components are found. And installed. And tested.

My dad used to say that theres a lot of money in the aircraft business and there is. The problem is getting some of it back out.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 18, 2008)

save the environment and burn more fuel. TONS more. Brilliant. Still fascinating stuff, and talk about moving wood. Never cut for a helicopter, but every other thing I can think of.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 18, 2008)

*culture wars*

I know how you all have to deal with owl hooters and the like, its interesting, the TN Dept. of wildlife won't even acknowledge all the mountain lion sightings in SE TN. I remember being first on the job, walking in the skid trail, just light enough to see, finding lion scat, couldn't have been anything else, nothing. I know plenty of others who have seen them (the real lion, not just the poo). Still TN wildlife doesn't seem to want to deal with it. Sure is different. Good? Bad? Not my call. Different.


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## John Ellison (Sep 18, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> I know how you all have to deal with owl hooters and the like, its interesting, the TN Dept. of wildlife won't even acknowledge all the mountain lion sightings in SE TN. I remember being first on the job, walking in the skid trail, just light enough to see, finding lion scat, couldn't have been anything else, nothing. I know plenty of others who have seen them (the real lion, not just the poo). Still TN wildlife doesn't seem to want to deal with it. Sure is different. Good? Bad? Not my call. Different.



TN Dept. of Wildlife might be in the same boat as Arkansas. Don"t know for a fact but I have heard that...If they admit that there is a wild population of cougar then it will cost the state money because the Fed Gov. says the state has to help pay for the necessary endless studying and baloney that they would force them to do.
A neighbor a half mile down the road got a good pic on a game trail camera. It was on the front page of the Sunday sports section, but the Game Dept. says it probably was a pet that was turned loose.


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## Humptulips (Sep 18, 2008)

slowp said:


> This particular sale was purchased by a mill. They have said that the wood in that area is exactly the right size and quality for their operations. I expect they'll make up a little bit on the skidder operations.



Funny thing, I was talking to a friend today at work that is pretty good at marketing wood about this thread. He said the only way this would work if it was a mill buying the wood. Guess he knows what he's talking about.

Footnote: Yea, I'm back limping aroud trying to cut a few trees down and whittle a few limbs off. Foot is killing me.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 19, 2008)

Hump, Hope the recovery continues, one day at a time. I know some wild cutters with enough junk in them to make you superman, I could ask if they'd share, but I personally think that may prolong the recovery from overuse.

Mr. Ellison, yes, i think thats exactly why they are igonoring the lion situation. But, I think its a reflection of the people in part, a limited public participation/outcry. Yes, it could make harvest plans more complicated, but, logging isn't the only thing to life (am i jinxing myself with this? I hate the stories of all the mill closures, unemployment, etc from the spotted owl) I'm glad that they're out there though, protected or not.


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## slowp (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, high and lots of maintenance. They were broke down yesterday, but it was foggy too, and had to run to Canada for a part. Got quite a spiel from the mechanic. There are very few original parts in their Huey. It started originally as an army trainer in 1962. They have a longer tail on it, and a rotor from a 212, the engine is from something else. He said it is a hot rod helicopter. But he also said the metal was starting to wear out. They also want to put emergency landing spots around the units. That worries me.

Now, on this sale, there is also skidder logging, and yarder logging. Those units go at the same price as the helicopter. So they might keep it economical, but I still don't like helicopter sales. The latest one sold, and to a logger. I'm hoping he can pull it off because he (and his crew) are the best I've worked with. You tell him something, and he's taking care of it...yesterday the botanist was out and showed us where some pretty bad noxious weeds were. I saw the logger talking to his just arrived on the sale log truck driver and pointing the patches out. 

I've invited the planners out, but only one taker so far. He's worried about the plans for more helicopter sales in smaller timber that are now in the works.
I hope he can sway them a bit. But I'm very pessimistic.


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## slowp (Sep 19, 2008)

More things I learned this week...I've never worked much with helicopters and never on the West Side of the mountains. (for non PNWers, the West Side of the Cascade Mtns. to the ocean,is the GOOD tree growing area) Since a helicopter is bringing in a large volume of timber to one landing, it has to be large to accomodate not only the decking area, but also the ever growing slash pile. The landing crew has to have room to move or run in. The yarder landing that originally was declared almost the right size, has had to grow more for this. 

I looked at the rope chokers. Just a thick inch and a half hunk of nylonish rope with a loop in each end. They are a pain in wet freezing weather. The shovel operator said they put them in a heated trailer to dry in the winter, but the ones that are already set and left in the unit overnight will be frozen and hard to undo the next morning. That might start happening in our lovely month of November.


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## Humptulips (Sep 19, 2008)

Block cutters use the nylon rope when flying. Usually 7/8 but the eyes wear out fast. It cuts and will actually burn the line when the sling tightens up. It dioesn't seem like it would be a problem after they flew. Seems like the act of flying would free it up. I cut a few blocks in the 70s and that 7/8th sling rope would handle a 1/4 to a 1/2 cord so maybe a 1000 pounds.

When I speak of blocks I am talking about cedar blocks for use in the shake and shingle industry, usually salvage cedar from older logged areas.


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## slowp (Sep 19, 2008)

Today I learned that they need to have an emergency landing area in the unit. So, I loaded up the vest and asked for directions (they were flying) and headed up to the tippytop of the tippytop unit. I have to approve and put the special paint on the trees prior to cutting. I pack about 50 pounds of well, stomach muscle so it was a grunt. But adrenaline kicked in because even though I was following THEIR instructions, they were flying over me. And, having seen the empty chokers come in to the landing, I didn't have a very good feeling so hurried up and went sideways to get out of the way. Then had to skirt some hung up by the cutters trees, and then just huff and puff up the hill which actually flattened out so it became pleasant. I'm thinking the rope is more like an inch in diameter. Here's a picture.





I purposely did not eat anything prior to hiking up the hill, nor did I pack it up the hill. It would be too heavy in the tummy. So I left this suggestion at the soon to be emergency landing site.




I managed to make it back down by following the steep sidehill of a drainage, wading through a patch of reprod and huckleberry, and then following a decommissioned (quite well) road to the washed out road. I almost made it back to the pickup during the refueling of the helicopter.


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## slowp (Oct 4, 2008)

I hiked up and checked out one of the units while the helicopter was getting "maintenance". Here's what the logged area looked like. No scarring or tops knocked out, and there's a pretty thick canopy left.





The mechanic explained that they shut down because the pilot realized he was "seeing outside where he shouldn't be able to do so".


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## MR4WD (Oct 4, 2008)

RPM said:


> _I'm a bit cranky due to having a lot of logging going on and it being spread out all over the place._
> 
> Oh come on slowp......you can never have too much logging going on, but it is a drag spending half your day in the pickup driving between operations. The weather here has been great lately so I'm in the bush as much as I can be.......on the down side the ground hornets are getting cranky - been stung everyday almost this past week.
> 
> ...




Where were you workin that RPM? Ever work around here?


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## RPM (Oct 7, 2008)

MR4WD said:


> Where were you workin that RPM? Ever work around here?



Yah I work in the general area....the heli was up Scotch Creek.


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## tek9tim (Oct 7, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Yea, Slowp I'm nosey. Hope you don't mind. I just can't see with the current price of logs and fuel how it could be economical to do this.



Shoot, I'm gonna get really nosey. 




slowp said:


> Too much other stuff, including making the woods safe from a menacing fire...a barely smoldering punky log which was in a very nice huckleberry patch. A hunter left a note on my pickup about the fire so I went up and he showed me the way. He had worked his way through college by fighting fire in the 70s. We dug up a little smoke and dumped my half liter of water on it. Then the only 2 fire guys working today showed up. I got to name the fire, and then munched on huckleberries showing them where the hot spots were.



Who's left? Is Doug still working fire there? I wish we'd pick up a fire. I got soaked this morning rehabing handline on one of our project fires. 



slowp said:


> The road decommissioning seems to be done with mainly meeting mileage targets as the reason. There are plantations in that area that will be ready for harvest in ten years or so, but with the present mind set, they too will have to be helicoptered. The sale being planned now is going to be helicopter because of the fear of building roads and the certainty of lawsuits if roads are put in. That is the current state of mind here. Not necessarily for every forest, I think this one is on the extreme side.



I sure don't miss fighting fire there. What I always hated was getting a fire up Purcell. The road goes clear in, but a small bridge washed out like 9 miles up. Sucker. 

Here, when they decommission a road they just turn it into a 4 wheeler trail. Of course, it's not because of washouts usually, just lack of funding for maintenance. Makes it nice for getting to fires. And rallying my dirtbike. 

Where is this unit, anyhow? Does the fire crew there do the BD burning on the units, or do they contract it out? When I was there, only a very small amount of stuff was burned by the fire crew.


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## Humptulips (Oct 7, 2008)

tek9tim said:


> Here, when they decommission a road they just turn it into a 4 wheeler trail. Of course, it's not because of washouts usually, just lack of funding for maintenance. Makes it nice for getting to fires. And rallying my dirtbike.



When they decommission a road here it's not even fit to walk on!


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## tek9tim (Oct 8, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> When they decommission a road here it's not even fit to walk on!



Yeah, guess it depends on how much money they have for the project and the nature of the road being decommissioned. Around here, they include road obliteration with some stewardship timber sales, where they get rid of some of the spur roads into the cut units. Those they do a pretty good job of destroying, restore the original contour and drag brush into it. The roads they turn into ATV trails are the longer roads that there isn't any hope of getting to harvest timber off of. Plus, it's a really low cost alternative, all they do is kelly hump it and put up a restriction sign.


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## 2000ssm6 (Oct 8, 2008)

slowp said:


> I hiked up and checked out one of the units while the helicopter was getting "maintenance". Here's what the logged area looked like. No scarring or tops knocked out, and there's a pretty thick canopy left.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, that can't be good. I could not work from having to make sure a chopper would not land on me.


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