# Bucking This Out of a Trail



## slowp (Feb 5, 2008)

Thought I'd post this upcoming cut. I've been studying this tree, and now have a plan. First, the snow has to melt so I can easily scamper away if needed. And have the 2wheel drive pickup nearby. I'll have another person along, and another saw. Here's the plan.
Make sure dog is out of way. Have extra people in place in case any walkers come along. Cut on bacside (slightly uphill) from downhill--as shown in picture. Cut big notch out of top and have wedges ready. Cut on downhill side, cut up from bottom. I'll also have a new chain on the Barbie saw. I don't think the rootwad will move, but there's always that chance and I think it'll go down on the uphill side if it goes. This is a very local hiking trail and used mostly by the school cross country team. I like to ride my bicycle up it once in a while. My dog likes all the elk and deer parts that get thrown over the side of the road which is located above. The tree is a Doug fir. That's a pesky hardwood just behind it.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 5, 2008)

Cut down till it gets close to pinching your bar, then offset your cut by 3-4 inches, cutting up from the underside. The offset will create some friction if it pops and work as ever so minor a "locking cut". Do this near the lowest point, before it hits the ground. It should just be setting there with very little pressure and once you get these cuts done you can just buck it into rollers-firewood size.


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## Jacob J. (Feb 5, 2008)

You haven't shown us all of the binds on this log from your pictures. All we can see is there's a log across a trail. If this is a loose piece just sitting there, it may have both end bind and top bind. Does the rootwad still have several large roots in the ground? Then chances are it will want to flop back down in its "bed". Is the log up against other trees, rocks, obstructions that we can't see in the pictures? Is there side bind? What is the top doing? Is it resting on something or there a length of the top that's free hanging?


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2008)

There might be some pop on the uphill side as the tree is hard against a rock on the side the picture is take on. The roots are totally out, and there's going to be bind on the top. I have quite a few wedges available too. Hammerlogging, I'm trying to figure out your method. I think I'm getting it. I'm Slowp for a reason. Slow in the brain sometimes. There's time to think because more snow is on the way and I just got blown out of the woods. Got a nasty hangnail too! I am ready to receive more info!


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## Sprig (Feb 5, 2008)

Not really seeing what you're dealing with but from past experience I do the big notch on the top thing too, like a 45degree vee to half-way through, high enough up the stump to do a safe undercut with good footing (yup, handy wedges a must) from the high side. I have had some small situations much akin and its a good idea to keep an eye on the stump (as I'm sure you're aware) should it decide ta flop down (a bad place for yer cute doggie helper btw). Remember you can always shorten the stump afterwards  Some more pics would be cool too!



Serge


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2008)

The dog was only used for scale. She'll be somewhere else, maybe down the trail by the dead mole. I can hike up there quite easily for more pictures. Today, I ran saw in a different way so just popped some ibuprofen and will be in the hot tub. I haven't cut brush for a while. It uses some different muscles. Now I must do a boot update. It isn't good either.:jawdrop:


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## Sprig (Feb 5, 2008)

slowp said:


> The dog was only used for scale. She'll be somewhere else, maybe down the trail by the dead mole. I can hike up there quite easily for more pictures. Today, I ran saw in a different way so just popped some ibuprofen and will be in the hot tub. I haven't cut brush for a while. It uses some different muscles. Now I must do a boot update. It isn't good either.:jawdrop:


So that there log is, um, about three dog heads thick?



 (what, the purple duct tape din't work on da boots?)

Serge


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2008)

I used to cruise this stuff for a living, I'd say 25 or26 inches at that point. I braved the dark and stormy weather and took more photos. Bad conditions but they won't be getting any better til August. 
Let me see, this might show the slight bow. The bow goes away from the side I would be working on. Then I shot more of the uphill side, and tried to show the rootwad but it was dumping rain pretty good and I'm in the dark woods! The last one shows the rock that is holding it. There's a deer ribcage about 15 feet up the trail and the dead mole is on down. Does that clear things up?  The ibuprofen kicked in and I needed a snorkel in the hot tub. The predicted wind came through right then. Not much of one though.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't think anything crazy should happen, it just tipped over, not like a dozer has pushed it around or anything. But I would cut where you're original picture showed it where the upper end (toward top) reaches toward the edge of the road, rather than at the stump. Just where its easy enough to still be able to undercut it. Cut down from the top about half way, (not a wedge or anything, just a cut down), no wedge or anything (except to ward off a pinch if you're really concerned, but remove it before you undercut), until you're getting close to where your bar might get bound. Then stop, and cut 3-4 inches forward, toward the top from the bottom up, relative to your first cut. Where your cuts bisect, the stem will break along the grain and then any tension will be released but the offset cuts will keep anything from jumping too far. Their are better "locking cuts" but I don't think you need them for this, plus you kind of need a skidder or something to make them unlock. I'd expect any jump to be negligible 3 inches max- not enough to reach your front left leg. Then you will be able to cut the trunk up in comfortable pieces toward the stump- and when you get close to it, stop cutting so it doesn't roll down on you- it'll be out of the way for your needs anyhow. Good to be careful. Enjoy the soak.


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## joesawer (Feb 6, 2008)

If you reach over the log with your bar and cut the far side part way through first, then you can stand a little farther away to make your over and under cuts.
I don't personally use an offset over and under very often. The resulting step can catch your bar and force it up or down and if it pinches can make a real mess. 
I mostly buck merch logs so I don't use a face cut or an offset very often on down trees. On that log I would most likely reach over to start my cut and make a vertical cut about 1/3 to 1/2 through, then rotate the saw over the top and make a top cut until the saw just barely started to bind, then trip it with a cut up from the bottom. Carefully watching the kerf the whole time, it will tell you which way the binds are trying to go before you trip it.
It is hard to tell the details from a pic, but be careful of the log sliding down hill.


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2008)

I've been cleariing trails in a local park for the past few days when the rain stops. My 13yo daughter has been bugging me for a new phone ever since her gf got one. Wednesdays are short days so when she got home I asked her in she wanted to earn some money. She jumped at the chance and almost ran to her room to change her clothes. We had several bay trees to pull down the hill to the road and one to pull uphill. It did my heart good to see her dragging half inch wire rope and chokers up the muddy hill to the trees. Then she came back down for the block and strap and rigged the whole setup. Every tree landed perfectly on the side of the road. She worked several hours and never complained once! If you knew my daughter you would know that is saying something. 

The funny thing about the job was how much smell the trees put out. Both of us were talking about how our nose burned from the bay. A young lady came jogging by and started coughing so bad she had to stop running. The biggest log is about 20-22 inches and man are they heavy green!


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## Sprig (Feb 7, 2008)

Thank you Slowp for the extra pics! I have a thought (other than the very good advice thus far offered by the crew), just for a piece of mind I think I might go and limb some of the larger limbs and prop that puppy up in a spot or two to keep it offa the rocks, also consider cutting some lengths from the upper parts first if not a pain, then you could use a round or two from the other side of the rock for your support under the log. Like I said, just a wee thought, probably minor at that too but I'm feeling helpful tonight, something about a woman who isn't afraid of duct tape or somethin', dunno, I'll go consult my chicken entrails and see if I should post or not.............






Serge


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks. We're getting another wind right now, so there'll be more trees down.
I did one that scared me pretty good yesterday, didn't know I could do backbends at my age! I had cleared it out where I cut so had room and all body parts are intact and not injured. It delayed eating my sandwich a while.
2dogs, are you cutting bay trees? I learned about them when I lived in the State Of Jefferson, down on the CA Salmon River. I liked using the leaves but didn't know they smelled when cut. Interesting...


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## 2dogs (Feb 7, 2008)

Slow it wasn't the wood that smelled so strong, it was the entire mass of leaves being slightly crushed when I pulled the whole trees down to the landing. The wood doesn't have much smell to it.


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## Airecon (Feb 11, 2008)

I was thinking about volunteering to clear trails at a US forest area. They won't let you use chainsaws, weedeaters or any power tools- it has to be all hand tools. That seems like a stupid rule. I can understand if it was dry and there was a fire hazard. If noise is the problem, what about the motor boats ripping along the lake close to the trails? Then I thought you could use an ATV as a utility vehicle and "tread lightly" on the trail to get to where the work is and get the job done, but "No can Do". What if the job is miles from the nearest road? You'll spend all your time just to get to the job. What if your building a foot bridge- you have to pack the lumber down the trail? I say, get the proper supervision, so you don't screw the trail up, get back in there with power tools and get the job done and get out. Then go clear another trail. Seems like they're making it hard on the volunteers. It showed one of the hand tools, they call it a swizzle stick I think- it looked like a "Cool Hand Luke/ chain gang" weed slinger to me. 

With no power tools it doens't seem like any fun, seems like a bunch of hard work.


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## slowp (Feb 11, 2008)

Airecon said:


> I was thinking about volunteering to clear trails at a US forest area. They won't let you use chainsaws, weedeaters or any power tools- it has to be all hand tools. That seems like a stupid rule. I can understand if it was dry and there was a fire hazard. If noise is the problem, what about the motor boats ripping along the lake close to the trails? Then I thought you could use an ATV as a utility vehicle and "tread lightly" on the trail to get to where the work is and get the job done, but "No can Do". What if the job is miles from the nearest road? You'll spend all your time just to get to the job. What if your building a foot bridge- you have to pack the lumber down the trail? I say, get the proper supervision, so you don't screw the trail up, get back in there with power tools and get the job done and get out. Then go clear another trail. Seems like they're making it hard on the volunteers. It showed one of the hand tools, they call it a swizzle stick I think- it looked like a "Cool Hand Luke/ chain gang" weed slinger to me.
> 
> With no power tools it doens't seem like any fun, seems like a bunch of hard work.



Here's how it works here. You need to do the above in a wilderness. Yup, all lumber and stuff is packed in. In our area, the Backcountry Horsemen do a lot, and I do mean a lot, of trail work. They have horses and mules to pack materials and equipment. Then there is the Washington Trails Association. They mainly work in wilderness, but do non-wilderness also. Since most of the people who volunteer with them are not accustomed to outdoor work, and because of liability, they use hand tools. Everybody who uses a saw, power or otherwise, is supposed to be certified by a Forest Service faller. Sounds like there's a few of them on this site. Then you get, and I love it, a green card! Out here, we have so many trails, and have had so much blowdown, there's mostly freelancers..people who load up a saw on their dirtbike or pack a handsaw and just do what is needed unofficially. DO NOT use a chainsaw or powersaw in a wilderness area. You'll get people riled and might get a nasty fine.  Packing stuff on a trail is a great (painful)workout, and is a justification to take Peanut M&Ms along. We have beers and burgers afterwards.


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## Zodiac45 (Feb 24, 2008)

slowp said:


> Here's how it works here. You need to do the above in a wilderness. Yup, all lumber and stuff is packed in. In our area, the Backcountry Horsemen do a lot, and I do mean a lot, of trail work. They have horses and mules to pack materials and equipment. Then there is the Washington Trails Association. They mainly work in wilderness, but do non-wilderness also. Since most of the people who volunteer with them are not accustomed to outdoor work, and because of liability, they use hand tools. Everybody who uses a saw, power or otherwise, is supposed to be certified by a Forest Service faller. Sounds like there's a few of them on this site. Then you get, and I love it, a green card! Out here, we have so many trails, and have had so much blowdown, there's mostly freelancers..people who load up a saw on their dirtbike or pack a handsaw and just do what is needed unofficially. DO NOT use a chainsaw or powersaw in a wilderness area. You'll get people riled and might get a nasty fine.  Packing stuff on a trail is a great (painful)workout, and is a justification to take Peanut M&Ms along. We have beers and burgers afterwards.




Hear Ya Slow,

On the east coast here I helped on a Land Grand trust project that is a really beautiful sea coast trail. We were lucky enough too have a couple of Lobster fishermen on the project who were able to pack materials on their boats and drop them at strategic local's around the route. It was huge help have caches of skinned cedar logs and bridge timbers close (relatively) and ready for notching.


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## smokechase II (Feb 24, 2008)

*I agree*

*"They won't let you use chainsaws, weedeaters or any power tools- it has to be all hand tools. That seems like a stupid rule. I can understand if it was dry and there was a fire hazard."*

I have been a FS employee since 1972 and I agree with you.
I'd like it if our trails crews could get a two week waiver for power saws each year. Simply advertise and post this exception for those that would complain.

********************

There are some varying standards of wilderness ethic in the US.
In Southern California the local fire crews are allowed to maintain helispots with chain saws in Wilderness areas.

No way in Oregon.

Chain saws can be run safely in dry weather. In extremely dry weather we shut them down. Exception, when there is a fire we can get permission from the Forest Supervisor, (this is generally a blanket waiver for a time period), to run saws.


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## slowp (Feb 25, 2008)

A friend of mine was on a trail crew up here in 1980ish. They used power saws in a wilderness area early in the season when they weren't apt to run into anybody. They got away with it. Now, with our population explosion they'd never get away with it. There'd most likely be fines, firings, and law suits. It is a lot like the road thing. The nature lovers want the roads that were damaged last winter fixed so they can get to their hiking places. They also want the roads maintained. If we put a timber sale along the road, it gets fixed and maintained. That's what most of the roads were built for. But logging is not a good thing so the roads don't get fixed and the people whine.
Same with trails. Substitute noise for logging. I was reading a hiking thread and a lot of folks complain about people talking too loudly in the wilderness! But the same ones complain about the trees across the trails. So, better bring a misery whip along on some of the trails. Or prepare to climb and crawl around. The snow is melted and I need to find an assistant to help tackle the trail log up on the hill. With a chainsaw of course!:greenchainsaw:


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## Burvol (Feb 25, 2008)

slowp said:


> A friend of mine was on a trail crew up here in 1980ish. They used power saws in a wilderness area early in the season when they weren't apt to run into anybody. They got away with it. Now, with our population explosion they'd never get away with it. There'd most likely be fines, firings, and law suits. It is a lot like the road thing. The nature lovers want the roads that were damaged last winter fixed so they can get to their hiking places. They also want the roads maintained. If we put a timber sale along the road, it gets fixed and maintained. That's what most of the roads were built for. But logging is not a good thing so the roads don't get fixed and the people whine.
> Same with trails. Substitute noise for logging. I was reading a hiking thread and a lot of folks complain about people talking too loudly in the wilderness! But the same ones complain about the trees across the trails. So, better bring a misery whip along on some of the trails. Or prepare to climb and crawl around. The snow is melted and I need to find an assistant to help tackle the trail log up on the hill. With a chainsaw of course!:greenchainsaw:



I'll be down your way next weekend. Are you in Castle Rock area or Toledo?


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## slowp (Feb 25, 2008)

I had to go to a meeting this afternoon. Since I usually leave meetings in a foul mood, I started out the day by heading up a road to see how far I could get. Found what I wanted, lots of stuff to cut out of the road. I wanted those endorphins to kick in so I'd be serene during the meeting. I made it up to see that last years slide did not reoccur on a haul road. But there was a maple that had slid down into the road. I studied it a bit and went to work on the far side, figuring that the root wad was likely to shift the other way. Cut two sections out, then went to the other side cuz I figured the danger of getting hit if it slid straight down was greater than the root wad shifting to the side. Oh, did I mention I cleared out every little branch that might trip me if I had to skedaddle out of the way? Cut on a lower part until the tree shifted a bit then finished up as much as I wanted to on an easier top where I could watch the rootwad while cutting. I will mention it to the road guy that he might want to go up and hook up to the rest of it with the backhoe. Endorphins kicked in, all was calm during meeting.  Here's some pictures. Used my hat for scale. The blue on said hat is tree marking paint.
Note to self, remove moss and it is easier to see if cut is closing up or opening.


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## techdave (Feb 26, 2008)

Hi Slowp I am with joesawyer. This kind of removal has always been our bread and butter as trailworkers. Last year I was off work, so I spent TONS of time removing old growth killed by the cedar fire in 2003 that finally fell over a FR or trail.

On smaller diameter and lesser slope I always do just liek Joesawyer said, offside, then compression side, then finish from the tension side.

If the log is big diameter or the endbind is steep, I make the same sequence of cuts but with a reverse salami, that is angled so the bottom of the cut is farther downhill. Allows the unsupported piece farther downhill to settle, otherwise the corner might get hung up.

As others said, watch for any funny unexpected bindings trying to happen as you go in.
No side bind from hidden rocks is there?


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## techdave (Feb 26, 2008)

*No power tools rule and red flag days*

hi Airecon, the FS guy who runs the crew is responsible for the safety of the volunteers. I have not met many non WILDLAND FF and non timber fallers I would want to work with on asaw crew, unless the civilian got a lot of training first.

Our vols have to get certified each year, and the number is limited. Vols who show up alot and are hard workers get the slots to saw.

I am not for a moment saying you are like this at all, but lots of the public are not safe workers and lots of guys wont listen at all to instructions or safety talk. 

The rule sucks sometimes, but I see why it exists.

As for weather stopping the work, if its red flag we cant saw period. It's another rule I hate sometimes, but even more than the qualified operators only rule, I get why it exists.


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