# Possible opportunity - Got questions for the pros...



## Steve NW WI (Nov 25, 2012)

Normally I just lurk over on this corner of AS - I'm mostly just a firewood hack with a case of CAD. But, I had a friend of mine approach me about helping him log a 40 acre patch of Aspen he's got.

Here's a little background. My friend is actually a tree farmer, he's got 2 spade trucks, and pretty good with a saw, but he's scared to death of dropping trees. That would be my part in this operation, just lay em down. He and his son will handle bucking and roadsiding the logs. I'm no pro, but I am fairly confident when dropping trees with some room to work, and not afraid to hang a bull rope in one that worries me - and he's got a 974 Bobcat (more the size of a wheel loader than a skid steer - 12,000lbs) on site. I haven't seen the ground up close yet, but he says the trees are average 18" DBH, regrowth from logging 40 odd years ago. I expect to see a lot of double and triple stems, and fairly tall straight trees based on what most lots like that I've seen. We'd be mostly clearcutting, just leaving the odd oaks, maples, etc that are scattered throughout the woods. No other hazards there, no buildings, power lines, etc to worry about.

So, some questions, just a starter, I'll surely have more after we take a walk in the woods, and more yet if we actually do this. He's going to get a couple logging companies to bid on it, but he's leaning toward a DIY job, since he and his son don't have much else to do this time of year.

First and foremost, what would be realistic as far as production, looking at it two ways: 1 would be just putting them down, and 2 would be me putting them down, and limb and buck before going to the next tree - I think this would be more efficient than bucking and topping in a tangled mess of dropped trees. I'm hopeful to get at least a load (13 cord) on the ground in a day, maybe more.

Second, what am I looking at in terms of trees/cord? I'm thinking 3-4 if his size estimate is good, the mill takes down to 8" on the small end.

Third, what sort of things that will trip me up do I need to be looking at when I go check out the woods? I've been out there a couple years back, but hunting and not looking at the trees. It's high ground, rolling but nothing real steep that I remember.

Fourth, we haven't talked money yet, but I'm thinking somewhere in the $8-10 per cord range, just providing me and my saws/fuel. Am I in the ballpark? We both know it's going to have a learning curve, we talked a little bit about cutting a couple loads to see how it will go before we commit to doing the whole works, maybe adjust the price up/down after we see how it's going to work?

Fifth, and most important, am I just nuts for even considering this? I'm not looking to change careers, just some sideline work to put some extra money in the pocket, doing stuff I like doing, and help a friend out in the process.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice.


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## Oldtimer (Nov 25, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Normally I just lurk over on this corner of AS - I'm mostly just a firewood hack with a case of CAD. But, I had a friend of mine approach me about helping him log a 40 acre patch of Aspen he's got.
> 
> Here's a little background. My friend is actually a tree farmer, he's got 2 spade trucks, and pretty good with a saw, but he's scared to death of dropping trees. That would be my part in this operation, just lay em down. He and his son will handle bucking and roadsiding the logs. I'm no pro, but I am fairly confident when dropping trees with some room to work, and not afraid to hang a bull rope in one that worries me - and he's got a 974 Bobcat (more the size of a wheel loader than a skid steer - 12,000lbs) on site. I haven't seen the ground up close yet, but he says the trees are average 18" DBH, regrowth from logging 40 odd years ago. I expect to see a lot of double and triple stems, and fairly tall straight trees based on what most lots like that I've seen. We'd be mostly clearcutting, just leaving the odd oaks, maples, etc that are scattered throughout the woods. No other hazards there, no buildings, power lines, etc to worry about.
> 
> ...



JMPO here...


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 25, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> JMPO here...



Hard to dig your comments out of my quote, but here goes:


How tall are the trees? I would figure 5 trees to a cord as a good rule of thumb. Some 5 tree groups will be more, some will be less.

I'll get a better handle on that when we go look at the woods, either tomorrow or Tuesday. If I'd guess, I probably would say there's going to be 4-5 100" sticks per tree. 


That's an OK figure ($10 per) if all you are doing is dropping them. Double it and add $5 for limbing and bucking. And HE buys the chains, files, fuel, and oil. Also, insist on getting paid per ton, not by the cord. Figure 2.5 tons to a cord, so look for $4 a ton to drop, $10 a ton to drop limb and buck. The mills buy it by weight, not cord. This way the money is easy to figure from the mill slip.

Apparently that's not the case here, the mill is buying by the cord, as I understand it. He was quoted $112/cord delivered, trucking will take $300 per 13 cord load out of that. Also, from the info I have, Aspen is only about 3600/cord green. At 5000/cord, 13 cords on a truck would be one heck of an overwieght ticket.

Either way, I'm not worried about getting shafted on the money end. He's a standup guy and longtime friend of mine. I'm just trying to figure a good base that works for both of us. I'd rather buy my own fuel & such, but we could likely work out expenses as well.

Thanks.


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## lfnh (Nov 25, 2012)

if the buyer will come out scale and mark, maybe think about topping and decking.
less chance of missing what the mill wants or not getting most scale for the bucking grade.
just a thought


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 25, 2012)

lfnh said:


> if the buyer will come out scale and mark, maybe think about topping and decking.
> less chance of missing what the mill wants or not getting most scale for the bucking grade.
> just a thought



Thanks, that might be a good idea if it works. It's going to a pallet mill, so I don't know how concerned they are about grade. I did tell him to get their full specs, he's gonna call them tomorrow on that. I'll have him check on getting a grader out while he's at it.


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## Oldtimer (Nov 25, 2012)

Never heard of a mill (A true wood yard / mill / buyer) buying by the cord.

How do they scale it? 

Aspen is aproximately 4600 pounds per green cord. This is what truckers figure it at in northern Wisconcin. (Google search)..

I know 13 full cords of poplar (closest to Apsen I have here) on my trucker's tractor trailer will give a gross of 100K pounds easily. It will give a net weight of 50K pounds or thereabouts.


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 25, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Never heard of a mill (A true wood yard / mill / buyer) buying by the cord.
> 
> How do they scale it?



Honestly, not sure. It's on the questions to ask list.



> Aspen is aproximately 4600 pounds per green cord. This is what truckers figure it at in northern Wisconcin. (Google search)..
> 
> I know 13 full cords of poplar (closest to Apsen I have here) on my trucker's tractor trailer will give a gross of 100K pounds easily. It will give a net weight of 50K pounds or thereabouts.



Google is tickin me off right now, I'm finding weights all over the place. I "think" it'd be closer to my earlier weight than yours, unless there are forestry exemptions, both WI and MN have 80,000 GVW limits, and a 45000 lb load on a self loader would be right up there. Of course, I'm assuming here. Maybe the trucker will move in a loader and run a lighter non loader trailer. I see both types on the roads around here.

Not trying to argue with you, just trying to wrap my head around it. Time to grab a beer, give my brain a rest, and watch da Packers play.


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## lmbrman (Nov 25, 2012)

Steve, you should be able to get a forestry permit for 98000# in WI easy.

the mills around me mostly stick scale the truck and pay by the cord, not weight, there are exemptions


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks for the reply and the PM Dave. I was looking at the MN laws (mill is in MN), looks like permits available there for 90K summer/99K winter, not sure when the switch to winter permits goes on.

You thinking of coming up to the charity cut on the 8th? I'm planning on it, and there's a few Iowans and Missouri people coming up. Good times as you well know.


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## StihlKiwi (Nov 26, 2012)

Oldtimer,

Whats your reasoning behind having the landowner buy fuel, oil, files etc?
If I was having a contract cutter come in (essentially whats happening here) I'd expect them to run all their own gear


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## lmbrman (Nov 26, 2012)

Steve, beefie and i were just chatting a while ago about the charity cut. I dont think either of us can make it. I want to get up there sometime, but might have to be spring. I have been cutting daily in the woods, and planing lumber on the weekends with lmbrwoman. Got my pulp contract to fill and its way easier before the snow flies. Lucky enough to have a few lumber sales that need filled too.

There used to be a good market up that way for peeled popple down to 3". If harvested at the right time in spring, it peels easy with a processor or even by hand. Just a thought- always nice to get an extra stick if ya can.

You got the right attitude and questions to do this, just remember our answers dont mean as much as the dude paying you :msp_wink:

be safe, - dave


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## Oldtimer (Nov 26, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Oldtimer,
> 
> Whats your reasoning behind having the landowner buy fuel, oil, files etc?
> If I was having a contract cutter come in (essentially whats happening here) I'd expect them to run all their own gear



It's about the money. I'd want to make more money if I were buying the supplies. The rates I listed are bottom of the range IMO.


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## hammerlogging (Nov 26, 2012)

it sounds like fun but a couple things to consider-

what are they going to skid with, or get the 100" stems out with? Thats a lot of bucking which will really sloow your cutting. Without a forwarding treailer of some sort, just a hay wagon with bunks even, to carry a load out with, anything, don',t think they will want to carry stems in their bucket for 40 acres worth, that'd be about nuts

sprouts, esp. on flat ground, can be a pain since at least 1/3 of them will be leaning against the lay, which is to say, toward the still standing timber, whcih will break up the methodical nature of your cutting- setting you up for lots of domino falling, or wedging, or more walking than you'd think you ought ot be doing, dancing around your block.

Sounds like a fun project, look up, and get away from the stump.


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 27, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> it sounds like fun but a couple things to consider-
> 
> what are they going to skid with, or get the 100" stems out with? Thats a lot of bucking which will really sloow your cutting. Without a forwarding treailer of some sort, just a hay wagon with bunks even, to carry a load out with, anything, don',t think they will want to carry stems in their bucket for 40 acres worth, that'd be about nuts
> 
> ...



Thanks. He does have a farm tractor and a flatbed with bunks, along with another skid to unload at the other end. I'm going to go have a look at the woods tomorrow if we can get our schedules to match up. Probably have more questions then.


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 28, 2012)

We went for a walk through the woods yesterday. It's all pretty straightforward cutting, very little if anything that won't come down with just a little wedging. The Aspen is mostly in pretty pure stands mixed thoughout the woods with stands of other hardwoods bordering them.

I still haven't seen the mill specs yet, we're waiting on that, and meanwhile we're looking at doing some widening of the woods trail, it's grown in over the years to where getting a full size pickup in there would be tough without bashing fenders, let alone not hanging up a farm tractor pulling an 8x20 trailer on snow covered trails. Hope to get that done this weekend, and maybe get a load cut as well if all goes well.

We haven't agreed on a price yet, we'd both rather see how it's going to go and figure a fair price from there.

All together, it looks like a fun little job. Unless we get 2' of snow dumped on us, that is.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 28, 2012)

It can be fun to work for a friend, until it becomes more work then fun. Just be semi professional about it and you guys should have a good time, 40 acres is a big chunk for part-time work though... and just because he's yer buddy doesn't necessarily mean he should get the "home boy" hook up. A little break to keep things sweet but you gotta get paid too.


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks for the advice north, I appreciate it. I haven't worked with this guy before, but I do have experience working with/for friends, and I know how that can be. I have one good friend that will stay that way as long as we never have to work in the same building again, and another that I spend about 100 hours a year doing field work for, so I've seen both ends of those deals.

We'll get together later this week and work out details, so both of us know what's expected.


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## Fuzly (Dec 1, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> There used to be a good market up that way for peeled popple down to 3". If harvested at the right time in spring, it peels easy with a processor or even by hand.



With a medieval torture device called a spud. Nickel a stick! I was head pulp peeler, stick man, and horse apple shoveler for my Dad a few springs when I was a lad. Wouldn't give the memories up for anything, but holy cow that was some work. The kids wonder why I give 'em crap about being lazy...


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## bitzer (Dec 2, 2012)

Well, you can get 14 cords of aspen on a truck. Mixed hardwood weighs in at about 4600/cord so aspen is considerably less. It sounds like you're going to be sorting bolts and in average 18" dbh aspen you might get 3, but more likely 2 per tree. Find out what bolt lengths you can make. Longer lengths will save time cutting. I would find a mill for the pulp leftovers which would amount to a couple more sticks per tree. Rapids takes aspen as well as others. $112/cord is good. $18-$25/cord fall, limb, and buck pretty average. Not to tear your hopes down but good luck on that truckload per day. Thats a lot of ####in around for full limb and buck for the occaisional cutter. Also gathering sticks will be a ##### without a grapple. Either by hand or otherwise. In a 40 acre clear cut there could be easily 4-500 cords and if you have to wedge any of them you'll be done in about 5 years. Seriously though, jackass comments aside, it sounds like fun and cutting decent aspen is, but thats a LOT of ####ing work to hand cut and skid with that kind of equipment. Good luck. I just cut a truckload of decent aspen sawlogs and pulp. Make sure your face and dutchman is the way you want it cause once you hit that back cut shes going fast and its hammer down!


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## lmbrman (Dec 2, 2012)

Fuzly said:


> With a medieval torture device called a spud. Nickel a stick! I was head pulp peeler, stick man, and horse apple shoveler for my Dad a few springs when I was a lad. Wouldn't give the memories up for anything, but holy cow that was some work. The kids wonder why I give 'em crap about being lazy...



I only had the priveledge of peeling popple with a hahn head, little easier and I can do without the memories 

Last time we sold it peeled in pulp size they were paying $130/cord, little better than a nickle, but still a pain.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 3, 2012)

bitzer said:


> Well, you can get 14 cords of aspen on a truck. Mixed hardwood weighs in at about 4600/cord so aspen is considerably less. It sounds like you're going to be sorting bolts and in average 18" dbh aspen you might get 3, but more likely 2 per tree. Find out what bolt lengths you can make. Longer lengths will save time cutting. I would find a mill for the pulp leftovers which would amount to a couple more sticks per tree. Rapids takes aspen as well as others. $112/cord is good. $18-$25/cord fall, limb, and buck pretty average. Not to tear your hopes down but good luck on that truckload per day. Thats a lot of ####in around for full limb and buck for the occaisional cutter. Also gathering sticks will be a ##### without a grapple. Either by hand or otherwise. In a 40 acre clear cut there could be easily 4-500 cords and if you have to wedge any of them you'll be done in about 5 years. Seriously though, jackass comments aside, it sounds like fun and cutting decent aspen is, but thats a LOT of ####ing work to hand cut and skid with that kind of equipment. Good luck. I just cut a truckload of decent aspen sawlogs and pulp. Make sure your face and dutchman is the way you want it cause once you hit that back cut shes going fast and its hammer down!



Well, we put about 6 cords on the roadside Saturday in 4+ hours, I learned a few things, made a couple ugly stumps, busted a wedge, lost 2 screnches, went home dog tired, and generally had a good time doing it.

I've got some pics on my phone, I'll put em up when I find the patch cord for it.

Things I learned:

I'm still pizz poor at matching the back cut to the face cut, I seem to wind up a little low on the far side every time, but I'm getting better with each one.

The root rake the boss has on the big skidder is good at grabbing sticks, not so good at grabbing a tree length log and dragging it out into the open.

Loggers laugh at the 4-7 saws firewooders and saw nuts bring with em for a reason. I used the 7300 all day, and didn't want less all day long. A 28" lightweight bar is on the list of toys I want, but 24" was all I needed out there. My gallon gas can ain't gonna cut it either, I burned through it in half a day of cutting.

Aspen is pretty easy on chains, I filed once all day while waiting for the loader operator to get back with an empty trailer.

The trees were a bit taller than I estimated, we're getting 5, sometimes 6 100" logs out of each one.

We're looking for a pulp mill, there's a lot of wood left in the tops when you're limited to 8" on the small end.

Diesel powered wedges are much faster than plastic ones, if the tree is leaning very hard the wrong way.

I cant wait for my Spencer tape to get here from Baileys, regular construction tape measures suck in the woods. Give me a few weeks of this, and I'll be able to eyeball 100" though.

Back with pics when I find the cord...


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 3, 2012)

Found my camera cord, here's some pics. This was my first attempt at a Humboldt, little too high on the back cut, and should have kept at the back cut a little longer, just a bit of pulling:







First piece going on the trailer:






The little clearing I was dropping the trees into:






First load






2nd load, unloading at the stacking area:


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## Gologit (Dec 3, 2012)

Good morning's work, Steve. What did you do after lunch? 

Try drilling a small hole in your scrench barrel and clipping it to the rope on your gypo jugs with a 'biner. Easy on and off and it's never far from you. Painting them bright colors helps too.

Scrench, bar nuts, carb adjustment screwdriver...they all hit the dirt and burrow in, never to be seen again.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 3, 2012)

That was after lunch, before lunch was spent getting all the equipment out to the woods, and figuring out what and how the whole process was going to work.

Headed back over there in a bit, got a half a load to finish and hope to get one more loaded before I go to my real job.


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## Gologit (Dec 3, 2012)

Good deal, hang in there. Matching the cuts on a Humboldt comes with practice...you'll get it.

And you're right about not dragging seven saws to the woods...two is usually plenty. Maybe an extra bar and some extra chains. Keep it simple.


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## slowp (Dec 3, 2012)

Instead of a carpenter tape, do what da other cheeseheads do. cut a stick to 100" and use that. No, I don't know how they didn't lose it. Paint? Flagging? :msp_smile:


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## northmanlogging (Dec 3, 2012)

use an extra starter cord to tie yer gypo jugs together, I just run the cord through the opening in my scrench, no need to drill holes, and knots arn't to bad to untie if'n you know which ones to tie... I also keep a scrench in my wedge pouch and a saw file, nothings fell out so far... except wedges.


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## Fuzly (Dec 3, 2012)

slowp said:


> Instead of a carpenter tape, do what da other cheeseheads do. cut a stick to 100" and use that. No, I don't know how they didn't lose it. Paint? Flagging? :msp_smile:



Do what my Dad did, recruit a kid and give him the title of Stick Man and make him responsible for keeping track of it.


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## bitzer (Dec 3, 2012)

Steve- Glad to hear things are shaping up! Yep on the stick until you get the tape. Also a 75' tape is nice on all pulp. Mark your pulp lengths on the tape 8' 4", 16' 8", 25' and so on with a black permanent marker. Saves looking. A tape on each hip is nice too. No getting tangled up. If you are really clear cutting, wedgeing much of anything shouldn't be an issue. It will take time to figure lay-outs. Don't beat yourself up on stumps-just takes time. Hitting the lay is more important. So are you bucking in the woods or tree lengths? Also some truckers will have their own pulp contracts and may buy the wood on the landing for $40-$50 cord. Otherwise contract trucking should cost $25-$30 per cord depending on how far its going. Also if you sort out sawlogs 12" diameter small end larger you could be getting around $280-$300 per thousand or $140-$150 per cord. Popple can make some decent sawlogs, 8'8", 10'6", 12'6", 14'6", 16'6" and so on. Send the bolts to the bolt mill for $112 per cord (may want to check around for a little higher- its $120 per cord down here) and the pulp to the pulp mill. Carry extra sharp chains with you, tie up anything you will lose because you will lose it. Whatever cuts will put wood on the ground fastest and safest are the best ones. Nip out the heart to avoid pull there. Popple likes to pull. Hand bunching pulp works well for picking the wood up with equipment, but is tough on the cutter. You also may be able to find a forwarder owner/operator to run the wood out for you at $15-$20 per cord if the skid loader thing doesn't work out. Expenses and down time are the biggest killers to profit. Time is the enemy. There is little wiggle room between a productive day and a #### day. Sharpen, sharpen, sharpen at night. Oh, and have fun! Whereabouts are you up north? I may know a trucker or a mill.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 4, 2012)

Bitz, thanks for the advice, and the boss is looking for other markets as well. We're up around the Osceola area - just across the river from MN north of the Cities.

Right now, we're dropping em, topping em, skidding the logs out to a clearing, bucking and loading. Mostly real short skids, 100 yards or less. I did get to lay 4 of em down side by side in the open yesterday, made a lot of wood in a hurry that way.

The boss is toying with buying a harvester and reselling it when he's done with it, I think he's a bit nuts there though.

We got into some bigger stuff yesterday - 20-24", but with bigger wood came a lot of rotten hearts for the first 8' or so. No pics yesterday, the camera was at home, and my dog chewed the battery to my good cell - don't ask.

Might not get much done this week, got a funeral later in the week, and a bunch of stuff that needs to get done at home as well.


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## johnnycompost (Dec 9, 2012)

*100 yard skid*

if you were cutting and they were that short of skid and the price of fuel was there what it is here Id say find a team of logging Horses cut down layem out and skid to the landing and buck them up actually goes quick if you get the system going right


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## Hddnis (Apr 28, 2013)

Maybe I missed another thread somewhere, but just wondering how this all turned out?



Mr. HE


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## Steve NW WI (May 1, 2013)

Didn't miss anything, winter showed up early and hard, and left late, and the owner kinda lost interest over the winter. The logs still sit by the roadside.

He's trying to line up a truck right now, but it might be a bit yet before the road restrictions come off.

Maybe I'll have an update soon.

(Missed your post somehow, just found it digging thru old subscriptions looking for another thread)


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## Hddnis (May 1, 2013)

I did wonder about old man winter, has a way of getting in the way sometimes.



Mr. HE


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