# Game of Logging hostility?



## ru55ell (Dec 31, 2010)

Hi: I'm new to AS

I sense that there is hostility towards GOL, Why?


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think loggers want to hear how to cut trees from people that don't make their living logging. Bore cutting is a hot issue, it's great when you need it, but boring every tree takes longer and is harder on equipment. So anybody going around pushing bore cutting isn't going to be received well.


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## forestryworks (Dec 31, 2010)

The one thing I've noticed that I don't like is they never seem to teach much about looking up.

*You have to look at the top of the tree to see what is going on* and to see any hazards you may have missed during size up or to watch hazards that have been noted.


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## FSburt (Jan 1, 2011)

I don't think loggers want to hear how to cut trees from people that don't make their living logging. 

Well said its more than the theory about the technique its also the time on stump that imprints if, when and where it will or will not or should not be used. Don't get me wrong I am all for learning new techniques it just the techniques that were taught to me were from fallers that spent their lives falling trees. GOL techniques are not new I have a old book (Loggers World the First 10 yrs 1964-1974) that discusses using the side boring backcut back in mid 60's so the old timers knew about this long before Soren started up GOL the differece is they used it when it was needed not on every tree.


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## Cedarkerf (Jan 1, 2011)

opcorn:


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## paccity (Jan 1, 2011)

it's ben hammerd out plenty before. i just don't like any one telling me to do something one way , there are so many variables to falling ,. i myself take info think about it , if it works itgoes in the book, if not in the can. just don't like people trying to save me from myself.


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## madhatte (Jan 1, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> they never seem to teach much about looking up.



That's HUGE, in my opinion. I mean, the saw is in your hands -- you know exactly where it is. The top of the tree? Not so much. Boring cuts on every tree mean unnecessary kickback risks, too, which further takes away from attention to the top of the tree. Bind, lean, condition -- all important! -- but none of those things mean a whit if you get brained by a falling branch while doing some unnecessarily complicated trick which takes your focus off of what really matters: *The Tree*.


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## lfnh (Jan 1, 2011)

Cedarkerf said:


> opcorn:


 
I'll see your opcorn:

and raise you opcorn: opcorn:


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## joesawer (Jan 1, 2011)

Also you can not move the tree forward with the back strap in place. It is impossible to move the tree forward and then cut your hing a little and then move it forward some more until you get a favorable lean.


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## redprospector (Jan 1, 2011)

I don't have any hostility towards GOL. I just think that anyone that say's this is the only way to do it is FOS. Trees are like people in that in order to manipulate them to do what you want them to do, you have to use a different tactic for each one. If you treat them all the same trees are like people in that some will do what you want, some will give you a little problem, and some will beat the hell out of you, and just one in a lifetime might kill you for treating it that way.
We have to learn to profile.............to judge the character of people and trees. Some need to be bored, some need to be chased, some need a little extra manipulation.

Andy


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## forestryworks (Jan 1, 2011)

*This one bored me with all the boring, no pun intended.*

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## Shmudda (Jan 1, 2011)

Those trees in that video are like vertical sticks.........

I wish the trees I cut were like those! Thats some easy work, almost seems unfair!!

Those are not typical in what you see in Western Pennsylvania thats for sure.

Craig


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## Gologit (Jan 1, 2011)

ru55ell said:


> Hi: I'm new to AS
> 
> I sense that there is hostility towards GOL, Why?


 
I see that you've been using the search function to look for answers to your question. If you read enough posts you've probably come to realize why GOL gets such a poor reception. 

We'd be interested in your experience with GOL and your reaction to what you've found here on AS about it.


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## ChrisF (Jan 2, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uRISkYLDvaw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uRISkYLDvaw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>




Question: Why is it needed to bore those trees?

Statement: I imagine those could be had on the ground a lot quicker and just as smoothly without borecutting.


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## logbutcher (Jan 2, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> I don't think loggers want to hear how to cut trees from people that don't make their living logging. Bore cutting is a hot issue, it's great when you need it, but boring every tree takes longer and is harder on equipment. So anybody going around pushing bore cutting isn't going to be received well.


 


forestryworks said:


> The one thing I've noticed that I don't like is they never seem to teach much about looking up.
> 
> *You have to look at the top of the tree to see what is going on* and to see any hazards you may have missed during size up or to watch hazards that have been noted.


 


FSburt said:


> I don't think loggers want to hear how to cut trees from people that don't make their living logging.
> 
> Well said its more than the theory about the technique its also the time on stump that imprints if, when and where it will or will not or should not be used. Don't get me wrong I am all for learning new techniques it just the techniques that were taught to me were from fallers that spent their lives falling trees. GOL techniques are not new I have a old book (Loggers World the First 10 yrs 1964-1974) that discusses using the side boring backcut back in mid 60's so the old timers knew about this long before Soren started up GOL the differece is they used it when it was needed not on every tree.


 


paccity said:


> it's ben hammerd out plenty before. i just don't like any one telling me to do something one way , there are so many variables to falling ,. i myself take info think about it , if it works itgoes in the book, if not in the can. just don't like people trying to save me from myself.


 


madhatte said:


> That's HUGE, in my opinion. I mean, the saw is in your hands -- you know exactly where it is. The top of the tree? Not so much. Boring cuts on every tree mean unnecessary kickback risks, too, which further takes away from attention to the top of the tree. Bind, lean, condition -- all important! -- but none of those things mean a whit if you get brained by a falling branch while doing some unnecessarily complicated trick which takes your focus off of what really matters: *The Tree*.


 


ChrisF said:


> Question: Why is it needed to bore those trees?
> 
> Statement: I imagine those could be had on the ground a lot quicker and just as smoothly without borecutting.



No, No, No, no, and no. And NO. :hmm3grin2orange:

Boring is just one more trick in your bag. Having done the 3 Levels of GOL AND CLP, they've learned me ( no grammar nazis please) more ways to cut: efficiently, safely, and planning your work flow including your escape route. I don need no stinkin danger....anymore.

I've worked with so-called pros. Many of their techniques (and from the above comments from you doubters, you too) are silly, dangerous, a waste of manpower and gear......and, old. Old. Like "file down the rakers, it speeds the cutting." It's the: "don't show me anything, I know". Good reason why Workers Comp and Liability insurances are so g.d. $$$$$$.

GOL and CLP teach techniques that include planning the fall, and yes, looking up AND around, using PPE the right way, but mostly maximizing your work. That is what the end game is.

Example: we learned rock climbing the hard and stupid way as kids. Lucky to be coming down for breakfast after getting stuck in a whiteout on one multipitch climb. Then the climbs through the 70's and 80's got tougher and tougher, with better protection and rock techniques, more reliable and lighter gear, AND the exchange of competitive info to make climbing safer while more difficult and physical. In service WE had to teach those hard won techniques to instructors too often hide bound to out of date Army manual regs.

The old dog new tricks thing. When you stop learning, it's time to not come down for breakfast.

Let the flaming begin....................:angry2:

P.S. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, where is my spellcheck ?


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## GASoline71 (Jan 2, 2011)

LMAO... most GOL guys couldn't pack my lunch for the day. 

So... this guy can cut circles around any GOL guy I've seen... Big ass tree... 3 cuts, and on the ground in less than 3 minutes... No pulmb-bobs, no stupid bore cuts, and no wedges... He knows what he's doin'. So if from your GOL training if you think this is unsafe and "the old way"... you still got lots to learn mang...

You wanted flames... there ya go.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2x7MXn5zuEw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2x7MXn5zuEw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Gary


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## paccity (Jan 2, 2011)

:agree2: i think some one just want's to poke at the hornet nest.


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## schmuck.k (Jan 2, 2011)

opcorn: this is going to be interesting


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## MR4WD (Jan 2, 2011)

schmuck.k said:


> opcorn: this is going to be interesting


 
Doubt it!


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## Gologit (Jan 2, 2011)

:welcome: The only people who are really impressed with GOL are people who just don't know any better.

If you're a greenhorn firewood cutter, a total newby, or some kind of wannabe poser who gets his manhood validated by playing logger GOL might give you enough information and training not to do anything incredibly stupid. Might.

The GOL graduates I've run across were a joke. And dangerous, too.


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## SWE#Kipp (Jan 2, 2011)

Hahaha,,, these threads are so funny 

GOL is a one of many good ways the get the tree on the ground and not any more dangerous the any other method ,,, I must admit i enjoy reading all these threads as they are hilarious to say the least 

I which a safe start on the new year to all of you loggers out there


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## 2dogs (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't think GOL is the problem, it is their graduates who insult anyone who doesn't worship the bore cut as the one true religion. Ooops, I mean method. Most of the guys who post here will use a bore cut when that is the best method for dealing with a given tree. Say a heavy head leaner. But most of us don't work in tree farms where every tree is the same size (small) and will felled in the same lead. Also how do you stand up a leaner with a bore cut or jack a tree over? How the heck can I use a GOL borecut and a 5' dbh Douglass-fir on steep ground? Or how can I borecut a Cedar that is growing tight between 2 White firs where my face cuts and backcut is done with the nose of the bar?

GOL votaries will tell me I need to take a class so I can use the borecut in every situation. THAT is the problem with GOLers, their absolute belief that every tree will handled by their magic. And they never once looked up.


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## FSburt (Jan 3, 2011)

SWE#Kipp said:


> Hahaha,,, these threads are so funny
> 
> GOL is a one of many good ways the get the tree on the ground and not any more dangerous the any other method ,,, I must admit i enjoy reading all these threads as they are hilarious to say the least
> 
> I which a safe start on the new year to all of you loggers out there


 
I have to disagree with this reply in that yes it can be more dangerous in some instances just like cutting a heavy head leaner down with the conventional backback can be if it is used in situations when it should not be needed. I agree with others that there is the increased kickback hazard, more attention that has to be committed to looking down at the cutting to ensure the holding wood is not cut off so your are at a increased hazard for getting hit with a falling limb and the other valid reason posted by others that have the experience to make those claims.


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## FSburt (Jan 3, 2011)

I just thought of an idea for to test the differences in exposure time and efficiency in using both techniques to illustrate. Just like all the hot saw videos let someone post a video to demonstrate both techniques and similar trees and time them as well as show how much the sawyer has the ability to look up and watch the top during the cutting process and see how the liabilities to using both techniques. Just an idea. Any takers with video camera's.


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## paccity (Jan 3, 2011)

ya, if a man could spend a day in another mans boot's.


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## FSburt (Jan 3, 2011)

"I've worked with so-called pros. Many of their techniques (and from the above comments from you doubters, you too) are silly, dangerous, a waste of manpower and gear......and, old. Old. Like "file down the rakers, it speeds the cutting." It's the: "don't show me anything, I know". Good reason why Workers Comp and Liability insurances are so g.d. $$$$$$.

GOL and CLP teach techniques that include planning the fall, and yes, looking up AND around, using PPE the right way, but mostly maximizing your work. That is what the end game is."


Believe me I too have been around so called professionals and I do agree with some of what you say that there are a few out there that yea that is the way they were trained and will not change for no one but most of us on here have a open minded attitude to learning techniques to help with more efficient and safe methods to fall trees what you cut in Maine is different than what I cut in California so yea some of what GOL can be applied but would I use it on everything no and it not because I do not know how it because its essentially a slower method of cutting which comes down to more time under each tree for me and the kind of trees I cut(Burning snags and fire weakened trees) leave no margin for f&^(ing around with extra cutting when its not needed. As far as maximizing your work each of the techniques are what has come about over the years and GOL has been part of that advancement.


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## SWE#Kipp (Jan 3, 2011)

It all comes down how well you know your choice of cutting style/method "GOL" "conventional" or what you like to call it in your part of world non of methods are safer or more dangerous then person behind the saw can make them !!


just my 2 ,,,


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## madhatte (Jan 3, 2011)

FSburt said:


> the kind of trees I cut(Burning snags and fire weakened trees) leave no margin for f&^(ing around with extra cutting when its not needed.


 
Too true. Badly-compromised trees often collapse against their own lean and all common sense. Minimizing exposure is essential in these situations, as is keeping eyes to the top of the tree. "Best-laid plans o' mice and men" and all.


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## logbutcher (Jan 3, 2011)

GASoline71 said:


> LMAO... most GOL guys couldn't pack my lunch for the day.
> 
> So... this guy can cut circles around any GOL guy I've seen... Big ass tree... 3 cuts, and on the ground in less than 3 minutes... No pulmb-bobs, no stupid bore cuts, and no wedges... He knows what he's doin'. So if from your GOL training if you think this is unsafe and "the old way"... you still got lots to learn mang...
> 
> ...


 
You say what you're eating for lunch Gary ? You don't want even think of me packing your anything. :hmm3grin2orange:

Looks to me like that vid of yours is something called........can I dare say it in front of all these girliemen ? Called.................................................called...............................
"*BORING*" . 
Nice example of that BTW Gary.
More flames. Bring it on . :help:
Some of this is like the high school testo challenges: " ............no, mine is longer"
:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

P.S. Spellcheck.


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## IcePick (Jan 3, 2011)

I went through GOL 1 and 2, and I tell ya...I wouldn't be caught dead in the woods again with any of those grads. Some of the old hippy chicks who took the class couldn't even hold their saws.

GOL instructors LOVE what they're doing, but I think they love the money more and will let anyone take the class.

The main reason I took it is because the instructor is an old-time logger who I have met before and he's a real hoot, can sure tell some great stories. Being a GOL instructor has enabled him to stay in the trade that has shaped his entire existence (he's about sixty five). 

I thought maybe I would learn something as well. It also gave me an excuse to be out of town from the old lady for a couple of days.

As far as the technique goes, I feel like I have a bit more knowledge knowing it, but honestly I rarely ever use it. The most boring I do is while bucking.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 3, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Looks to me like that vid of yours is something called........can I dare say it in front of all these girliemen ? Called.................................................called...............................
> "*BORING*" .
> Nice example of that BTW Gary.
> More flames. Bring it on . :help:
> Some of this is like the high school testo challenges: " ............no, mine is longer"



So I'm not following... if that guys way of dropping that tree is "boring" to you... i guess you just don't get it. Meh... you never will.

So apparently a 3 cut drop just doesn't have any "danger" or "adventure" or "daring"... you need a "challenge"...

Then break out your wedges and your mamby-pamby bore cuts... 







Gary


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## Gologit (Jan 3, 2011)

GASoline71 said:


> So I'm not following... if that guys way of dropping that tree is "boring" to you... i guess you just don't get it. Meh... you never will.
> 
> So apparently a 3 cut drop just doesn't have any "danger" or "adventure" or "daring"... you need a "challenge"...
> 
> ...


 
But Gary...Logbutcher has taken *all three* of the GOL classes. All three!!!
And CLP too...whatever the hell that is. I think maybe we have an honest to goodness expert tree fallin' son of a gun hiding out back East there. And all this time we never knew what a gem was in our midst...what an absolute fountain of knowledge and experience was available to us. I mean...*all 3 GOL courses*. Wow.

I think we ought to send him to Pat. Maybe Logbutcher could show him a few things...you know, help him out, give Pat some advice, fine tune his falling technique, that sort of thing. He obviously feels like there's something lacking in the way Pat does things.

One request though...if you please. If it happens, I want to be there to see it. And remember, when the crowd shows up...I asked first.


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## SWE#Kipp (Jan 4, 2011)

I use the method that fits and the felling plan i have made in my head if that is a "three cut plan" then i go with that, but i can't see the bigger danger with time spent at the tree making the borecut and the "release strap" no matter how i look at it, the danger part as i see it is when the tree starts to move/fall and that part you choose yourself with the bore&strap while with the regular cut you still are cutting to make the correct hinge width when the tree has started fall ,,,,,,
I'm talking healthy trees with maybe some lean and other simpler issues and not fire damaged trees or rotten ones or other trees that need special skills to felled safe !!

Ps. i really like when i can cut with regular cuts without the risk of a barberchair and go for that as much as i can, just can't see the big danger part with the bore/strap!


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## logbutcher (Jan 4, 2011)

Gologit said:


> But Gary...Logbutcher has taken *all three* of the GOL classes. All three!!!
> And CLP too...whatever the hell that is. I think maybe we have an honest to goodness expert tree fallin' son of a gun hiding out back East there. And all this time we never knew what a gem was in our midst...what an absolute fountain of knowledge and experience was available to us. I mean...*all 3 GOL courses*. Wow.
> 
> I think we ought to send him to Pat. Maybe Logbutcher could show him a few things...you know, help him out, give Pat some advice, fine tune his falling technique, that sort of thing. He obviously feels like there's something lacking in the way Pat does things.
> ...



Yes, the big ones have esteem problems. "All three "( count 'em "3" ) problems.

That's what is called a boring cut: looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, s___ts like a duck..........hey, could it really be a duck ?:help: Only thing: is that the top corner of the bar that expert logger is shoving into that mouth ?  Looks like a recipe for kickback ? Then again, you boys are strong enough to hold a 660 or 372 with those oh so manly 36" bars from any kickback.......aren't you ?:deadhorse:

Getting it straight: CLP = Certified Professional Logger. Eastern Program that allows harvesters to demonstrate to the company/people/forester hiring them, that they have passed a program that teaches efficient, safe, technical logging skills approved by.......(can you guess ? ) a group of industry insiders: loggers, arborists, paper co. execs, foresters. Then again, you guys don't work for anyone, right ?:angry2: You've No need to make $$$$. Nice to be independently flush.

So, it sounds like Gologit, Gary and the boys know everything there is to know about their career. No more to learn, nothing out there new that could allow them to do the job faster, more efficiently, safer. 

Fuggettaboutdit: " you can't show me nothing, you silly GOL 3 Level fool. " :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

P.S. Where's the spellcheck ?


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## paccity (Jan 4, 2011)

i just did a rough search through the us labour and stats web site. it dos'nt look to me that us west coast knuckle dragers are getting hurt or killed any more than you east coasters . so do what you do we will do what we do. as long as every body stays safe it's all cool.


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## 2dogs (Jan 4, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Yes, the big ones have esteem problems. "All three "( count 'em "3" ) problems.
> 
> That's what is called a boring cut: looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, s___ts like a duck..........hey, could it really be a duck ?:help: Only thing: is that the top corner of the bar that expert logger is shoving into that mouth ?  Looks like a recipe for kickback ? Then again, you boys are strong enough to hold a 660 or 372 with those oh so manly 36" bars from any kickback.......aren't you ?:deadhorse:


 
Oh so when us west coaster/non-GOL acolytes watch that video we see the faller trimming his under cut for precision and you see him boring the face. That explains alot right there. Your world must not include trees the size shown in the vid and certainly nothing larger. Maybe you need to widen your gaze a bit.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Oh so when us west coaster/non-GOL acolytes watch that video we see the faller trimming his under cut for precision and you see him boring the face. That explains alot right there. Your world must not include trees the size shown in the vid and certainly nothing larger. Maybe you need to widen your gaze a bit.


 
Yup. We _watched_ the video. He looked at the picture of the faller cleaning the undercut and figured that was a bore cut of some kind. What does that tell us about what GOL taught him?

And logbutcher?...the guy in the video would be welcome in our outfit any time. Even though he probably hasn't had *all three GOL courses*. The man can cut...simple as that.


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## paccity (Jan 4, 2011)

i know i have not been a member very long but how long has this gol aroganst been going on. seems pretty pushy to me.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 4, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Oh so when us west coaster/non-GOL acolytes watch that video we see the faller trimming his under cut for precision and you see him boring the face. That explains alot right there. Your world must not include trees the size shown in the vid and certainly nothing larger. Maybe you need to widen your gaze a bit.


 


Gologit said:


> Yup. We _watched_ the video. He looked at the picture of the faller cleaning the undercut and figured that was a bore cut of some kind. What does that tell us about what GOL taught him?
> 
> And logbutcher?...the guy in the video would be welcome in our outfit any time. Even though he probably hasn't had *all three GOL courses*. The man can cut...simple as that.


 
Yup... almost not even worth the time to type this out in a response to him. I had a feeling he thought that cleanin' out the face was a "bore" cut... Now I know he's clueless... 

Pat... I hope you don't mind me usin' your vids as examples. But your skills in West Coast timber fallin' are above par.

Gary


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## indiansprings (Jan 4, 2011)

I got to spend a half a day on the same site as a GOL graduate last fall. Personally I thought he was a joke. I'm no falling expert by any means, but fell my share cutting firewood. This guy's production in an afternoon was prolly about half of what my cousin who is a third generation oak logger who has never seen a class.
I might have a use for a bore cut once in a blue moon, the rest I fall as demonstrated on the video Gary shared. It's the individual who goes to these classes, they brainwash them into bashing/branding anyone who hasn't gone as ignorant and not knowing what they are doing although the guy who hasn't went might have three time the expierence in the woods. I can't think of a time I have cut a tree that I didn't plan where it would fall, don't need a class for that.
The most important thing to use in falling is common sense and recognize your limitations.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 4, 2011)

Was just wondering if all the GOL graduates start their saws using the 'nut cracker', method and if most of them cut those high 'backache Barney', stumps?
Lol
John


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## Cedarkerf (Jan 4, 2011)

GASoline71 said:


> So I'm not following... if that guys way of dropping that tree is "boring" to you... i guess you just don't get it. Meh... you never will.
> 
> So apparently a 3 cut drop just doesn't have any "danger" or "adventure" or "daring"... you need a "challenge"...
> 
> ...


So he did think cleaning the under cut was a boring cut. I would think even GOL would teach you to clean up your under cut. I thought he meant that Pats vid was a snoozer or something. Likes been stated all ready not much worth respondin to.


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## SWE#Kipp (Jan 4, 2011)

Here they "teach" other starting methods along with the nut cracker (perfect name for it btv) i went through what i might think can be like step 1&2 and consider them both as courses how to handle your saw and some very basic falling practice suitable for maybe a firewood cutter NOT a production faller would guess it's like that at you too !?
here the steps are ABCDEF were D is for stormdamaged wood and other difficult felling but still not for production ,,,

I look at all these courses at the same way as a drivers license in the aspect that the real learning starts when you get some hours behind the wheel when you put what you learned in to practice !!
And most people i know including myself felt i was an "über" driver when i passed my drivers license, it took some time to see that i had some learning to do about real life driving ,,, 

Ps. John i had friend do the nutcracker with my 394xpgw without the decomp very very funny to watch a guy who is used to starting 242xp and 346xp saws use the same technic to start a big saw,, one pull and down he went 
Laughed at that the whole day :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Karl Robbers (Jan 4, 2011)

Just a question regarding qualifications etc.
Ok, I have sort of worked out that GOL is a multi level training program whereupon completion you attain a certification of your competence.
Does the opposing camp have their own training and certification program?
I assume that to be allowed to work as a commercial faller that you must be certified. Right?


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## logbutcher (Jan 4, 2011)

Karl Robbers said:


> Just a question regarding qualifications etc.
> Ok, I have sort of worked out that GOL is a multi level training program whereupon completion you attain a certification of your competence.
> Does the opposing camp have their own training and certification program?
> I assume that to be allowed to work as a commercial faller that you must be certified. Right?



Not quite. It's one of those testosterone things: "mine is longer" :hmm3grin2orange:. 

Hey I don't give a F what you or I use to work; all that counts is:
1. You do an honest day's work.
2. You do it efficiently.
3. You don't get hurt.
4. You make the $$$$$ you're worth for your employer.
5. You enjoy at least 80% of what puts bread on your table.

Everything else is male tit stuff.......worthless.:hmm3grin2orange:

Now, you PNW girls want to crow about how testo you are, fine. No beef with that. But demean a real life training program that teaches you new skills to do your job better, then you're a damn fool.:sucks 

You learn to learn. As you get into situations that could take your life, you get humble. Real humble. Like eationg humble pie when your pants get wet. One gets to look with objectivity at what can I do to survive. You want to blow air, fine. It's just B.S., H.S. gump. I'm going to do all I can to come down for breakfast. Many of us have been through life situations enough to know that (HAVE YOU ?) : it's never too late to get new info. Old dogs.....You want to run your 90" bars  without real protection and boast, fine.

Hey Gary/Gologit: a bar @ WOT stuck into a mouth is boring. Boring. You hear ? More: put that top end of the bar where the sun don't shine ( that's your model video) is plain Deliverence stuff. Can you spell "kickback" ? You want to scream piggie, fine. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.:hmm3grin2orange:

Where's my spellcheck ?


----------



## paccity (Jan 4, 2011)

med's


----------



## 2dogs (Jan 4, 2011)

Karl Robbers said:


> Just a question regarding qualifications etc.
> Ok, I have sort of worked out that GOL is a multi level training program whereupon completion you attain a certification of your competence.
> Does the opposing camp have their own training and certification program?
> I assume that to be allowed to work as a commercial faller that you must be certified. Right?


 
Yes there are classes for fallers offered by the NWCG. It is mostly for fallers who work for a gov't agency both on the fireline and in general falling. I am an "A Faller" which means I am certified to fall 8" diameter trees. On the other hand I am also a certified wildland faller (no diameter rstrictions) for both CalFire and USFS. Unfortunately I live in an asbestos county and I'm not real interested in traveling so I may never be called.


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## 2dogs (Jan 4, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Now, you PNW girls want to crow about how testo you are, fine. No beef with that.
> 
> Hey Gary/Gologit: a bar @ WOT stuck into a mouth is boring. Boring. You hear ? More: put that top end of the bar where the sun don't shine ( that's your model video) is plain Deliverence stuff. Can you spell "kickback" ? You want to scream piggie, fine. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.:hmm3grin2orange:


 
What??!


----------



## 2dogs (Jan 4, 2011)

BTW I often, heck mainly, start my small saws by holding the rear handle with the inside of my right thigh. The rear handle is NOT in my crotch! I kinda left my right leg and point my toe and lock the rear handle in. When working in water or tall grass this is the only way to go. Of course it is not practical with a large saw and a long bar.

I do not like drop starting a saw by holding the front handle with my left hand and throwing the saw down. Especially when there are people working with me. And yes I start the saw with the brake on.

So John it is NOT a nut cracker unless you Canadians hang really low.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## 2dogs (Jan 4, 2011)

This what happens when I'm home with a sick daughter. Lots of computer time.


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## Cedarkerf (Jan 4, 2011)

This thread has gone from entertaining to hillarious :hmm3grin2orange:
Hey Gary or Bob or 2dogs ya gotta 90" bar I can barrow.


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## 2dogs (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm so ashamed I only have a 60" bar on an 090. I guess I need grow up. Now I have bar envy too.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2011)

Cedarkerf said:


> This thread has gone from entertaining to hillarious :hmm3grin2orange:
> Hey Gary or Bob or 2dogs ya gotta 90" bar I can barrow.


 
You can borrow mine but I'll need it back next month. I have rose bushes to prune.


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## dk27 (Jan 4, 2011)

I find that video quite impressive.
3 cuts,3 minutes and a tree of that caliper is on the ground!
No grand standing, no hoopla
3 precise cuts and that's it
He makes it SEEM so simple.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2011)

dk27 said:


> I find that video quite impressive.
> 3 cuts,3 minutes and a tree of that caliper is on the ground!
> No grand standing, no hoopla
> 3 precise cuts and that's it
> He makes it SEEM so simple.



The good ones always do.


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## forestryworks (Jan 4, 2011)

Karl Robbers said:


> Just a question regarding qualifications etc.
> Ok, I have sort of worked out that GOL is a multi level training program whereupon completion you attain a certification of your competence.
> Does the opposing camp have their own training and certification program?
> I assume that to be allowed to work as a commercial faller that you must be certified. Right?



For logging, no certification needed in the US. In Canada, you need to be certified to fall timber.

In the US, you typically work your way up from choker setter and then get "broke in" by a veteran faller.

The west coast guys use tried and true methods, they've worked for over 100 years.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 4, 2011)

LMAO...

Clearing out a face of a Humboldt = Bore cut... HAHAHAHA! I've heard it all now...
  

Gary


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## Taxmantoo (Jan 4, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Yes there are classes for fallers offered by the NWCG. It is mostly for fallers who work for a gov't agency both on the fireline and in general falling. I am an "A Faller" which means I am certified to fall 8" diameter trees.



Is "A Faller" class where they teach you to do this?
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/14148.htm

Prophet of the decade award goes to geofore, who said to Lamebert in that thread:
*"John you didn't say to look up once to see if a dead limb was going to break over your head before you do that."*


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## hammerlogging (Jan 4, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Not quite. It's one of those testosterone things: "mine is longer" :hmm3grin2orange:.
> 
> Hey I don't give a F what you or I use to work; all that counts is:
> 1. You do an honest day's work.
> ...



Dude, you have got to chill. Period. You're post has proven you have very little experience. 

Here's the deal. I am an east coast faller, I cut big high value wood day in and day out in a production setting. I have cut with fallers from all over the country. I even have all 4 levels GOL training (but I only did it because it was part of my scam to get my most recent degree in 2 semesters and a hair more.... it was one minor part of an independent study)

I bore cut when I have to, as little as possible. I run my lead not with the lean but sidehill, i try to never have to dump trees down hill so I can back cut and humboldt as much as possible. I open face, I conventional (more ever since 2dogs and I agreed we rarely conventional, I guess thats just fate- eat your words...) and I humboldt. I lay my timber sidehill so I have to bore way less.

You don't need to hear this, you need to know when you've been outclassed. The GOL info is worthy of a 30 minute lesson to a first day faller. 30 minutes. 

If you think that guy was boring his face, bull####. You have much to learn. Be careful as you take the steps ahead as you become a professional.

And a note to all the good folks here, I have learned much from you, thankfully, cause its sort of isolated just falling timber all the time. Its amazing what you can pick up from someone in just one day of cutting with an outsider, and here, discussing technique, too.

Have a good one!


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## FSburt (Jan 4, 2011)

Whew leave for a few hrs and wow some s&*t starts opening up. I gotta say this GOL is getting just about as heated as the Stihl vs Husky discussions. Well at least the person who started this thread found out what button to leave the finger off of next time. LOL. Great thread though with some excellent dialogue between some good men just need some virtual beer and this would be like Moes place on the Simpsons.


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## paccity (Jan 4, 2011)

ya think it sunk in?


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## bitzer (Jan 4, 2011)

Great post Hammer!


Boring is a necessary tool in the bag for hardwood, but not the end all and defintely not the only way. Jesus what did all them boys do before power saws anyway?

Butcher- You need more time in the woods, period. In your first post you talk about you don't want any more danger. Then stay the hell out of the woods. No amount of bore-cutting is going to make you any safer. Looking up sure as hell will though. "WOT or nothing" and no danger falling. I'll remember those two from you.


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## logbutcher (Jan 4, 2011)

bitzercreek1 said:


> Great post Hammer!
> 
> 
> Boring is a necessary tool in the bag for hardwood, but not the end all and defintely not the only way. Jesus what did all them boys do before power saws anyway?
> ...



That's not the "danger" most of us who have been know Blitzen. Real danger is not "in the woods" unless you talk like some do about logging. Danger is when you have no choices, a mission, a duty, an obligation to your team. Ask. Maybe you need some real life without all this ignorant adolescent put down of things you don't know jack about. YOU need to get out. Step away from the computer. And that's an order Blitz. :notrolls2:

So you cut at 1/2 speed ? Don't feel you need to look up and around ? Can't and won't absorb any new info ? Know it all ? Dead giveaways for not hiring on any team . Then again, you boys know all there is to know about felling, the industry, saws,......and life. Oh, forgot, you don't need to make a buck.:help::help:

I'm dismissed and pi$$ed.:deadhorse:

Where's my spellcheck ?


----------



## madhatte (Jan 4, 2011)

Q: can we vote people off of this island?


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## paccity (Jan 4, 2011)

ha!


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Q: can we vote people off of this island?


 
Don't I wish.


Hey Logbutcher....you are busted. When enough different people tell you basically the same thing you might want to listen...and change your ways.

Or...you could just get mad at yourself for being such an idiot and quietly slink away.

Either way the rest of us come out ahead.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 4, 2011)

Hell, I just realised I am from the PNW, only 60 airmiles from Alaska's capital Juneau. Does this mean I am one of you?
Is anyone here farther North or cut more wood than I?
I sorta doubt it unless they can talk more than they can walk. Lol
John


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## GASoline71 (Jan 5, 2011)

FSburt said:


> Whew leave for a few hrs and wow some s&*t starts opening up. I gotta say this GOL is getting just about as heated as the Stihl vs Husky discussions. Well at least the person who started this thread found out what button to leave the finger off of next time. LOL. Great thread though with some excellent dialogue between some good men * just need some virtual beer and this would be like Moes place on the Simpsons. *



However... in a setting like that the smack talkin' would prolly be nil... 99% of the cats that are mouthy on the internet... wouldn't do it to your face. They can hide behind distance and a keyboard here. 

Gary


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## FSburt (Jan 5, 2011)

I would agree with you on that Gary. message boards are so impersonal with no arm swingin or mad doggin to help set the stage. Well I think this thread has been thoroughly discussed what next?


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2011)

FSburt said:


> I would agree with you on that Gary. message boards are so impersonal with no arm swingin or mad doggin to help set the stage. Well I think this thread has been thoroughly discussed what next?


 
What next? How 'bout breakfast? We're having scrambled eggs, linguica, and canned smoked salmon.


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## logbutcher (Jan 5, 2011)

GASoline71 said:


> However... in a setting like that the *smack talkin' *would prolly be nil... 99% of the *cats that are mouthy on the internet... wouldn't do it to your face. They can hide behind distance and a keyboard here.*
> 
> Gary


 


FSburt said:


> I would agree with you on that Gary. message boards are so impersonal with *no arm swingin or mad doggin* to help set the stage. Well I think this thread has been thoroughly discussed what next?



Sounds like you girls are hiding behind skirts of the virtual ? :agree2:

No pro we work with brags as much as you girls about this "danger" thing, or how big their things are, or how much only they know about their job. Hiding behind, huh?

Why the need to put down what you don't know jack about ? Self esteem ? Lack of proper :help: sex ? Who knows. You talk "mouthy " ( I like that ), boast, demean.
Sounds like a bunch of sandbox kids. If you're so GD good, why put down other ways of doing the same thing you brag about ? So, PM if you want that big meeting, or, a referral for a local shrink. "Smack down" huh ?:hmm3grin2orange:

Now, go play, or get in that internet corner you're hiding behind. "It is not a hill you want to die on" ( from one of my battalion training C.O.'s ). Maybe you like self-made "danger" because you never faced the real stuff. Takers ?

OK, you made your points. Time to get back to Forestry and Logging, and Chainsaws, and ...............The Real World. I'm going back to work.

The End.


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## ChrisF (Jan 5, 2011)

Look, it's in the defensive position. How cute.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> The End.


 
I sure hope so.


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2011)

I like our resident Troll way better. He's polite and well-informed even when opinionated.


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## 137cc (Jan 5, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Yes, the big ones have esteem problems. "All three "( count 'em "3" ) problems.
> 
> That's what is called a boring cut: looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, s___ts like a duck..........hey, could it really be a duck ?:help: Only thing: is that the top corner of the bar that expert logger is shoving into that mouth ?  Looks like a recipe for kickback ? Then again, you boys are strong enough to hold a 660 or 372 with those oh so manly 36" bars from any kickback.......aren't you ?:deadhorse:
> 
> ...


 
logbutcher,

This is clear example of 3 cuts, no bore cut. You thought this was a bore cut because you never seen anyone cut like this before. Which just in turn reveals your knowlegde; not that much.

This is standard ops for a pro out west, 3 cuts from one side with a bar thats smaller than the tree your cutting. 

You may not know this but Soren Eriksson was laughed out of the west when he was brought over by Weyerhaeuser to show the pro's out west his new better and safer method to fall trees. He demonstrated the use of a falling belt rather than an axe & wedge. Which has tongs attached that will fit into your back-cut. You help push the tree over when you stand up. Oh yeah, the tree he was demonstrating on was really small. When Soren was asked how to use that method on a bigger tree he had no answer, other than that he had never fell a tree that big before. 

And yes, this story about your GOL god Soren Erikkson is true. He couldn't cut average size timber PNW. Yet he was telling us that we were felling trees wrong and we needed to change. He was appropriately laughed out of the PNW, and his methods (GOL) are still laughed about in the PNW today. 

Oh yeah, I think it funny to hear a GOL guy get on someone else there using the kickback zone on their bar.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 5, 2011)

Good post 137cc...




I now wash my hands of this... 

Gary


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## justme23005 (Jan 5, 2011)

GASoline71 said:


> However... in a setting like that the smack talkin' would prolly be nil... 99% of the cats that are mouthy on the internet... wouldn't do it to your face. They can hide behind distance and a keyboard here.
> 
> Gary




I agree completely.... Fighting on the internet, is a lot like running in the special olympics.... Even if you win, you're still a retard. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## D&B Mack (Jan 5, 2011)

justme23005 said:


> I agree completely.... Fighting on the internet, is a lot like running in the special olympics.... Even if you win, you're still a retard. :hmm3grin2orange:


 
LMAO :hmm3grin2orange: That is going in my sig, that was classic!


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## lfnh (Jan 5, 2011)

*special olympics...*

I don't see any humor in the 'special olympics' post by justme23005, D&B Mack.

It is derogatory, offensive and way out of line.


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## justme23005 (Jan 5, 2011)

lfnh said:


> I don't see any humor in the 'special olympics' post by justme23005, D&B Mack.
> 
> It is derogatory, offensive and way out of line.




You're entirely correct... I should apologize.. Everybody listening???? 

I'm sorry to any retards who I have offended.


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## Taxmantoo (Jan 5, 2011)

137cc said:


> You may not know this but Soren Eriksson was laughed out of the west when he was brought over by Weyerhaeuser to show the pro's out west his new better and safer method to fall trees. He demonstrated the use of a falling belt rather than an axe & wedge. Which has tongs attached that will fit into your back-cut. You help push the tree over when you stand up. Oh yeah, the tree he was demonstrating on was really small. When Soren was asked how to use that method on a bigger tree he had no answer, other than that he had never fell a tree that big before.


 
When something goes wrong with axe and wedge, you can drop the axe and run away. Is this falling belt wrapped around your body? Can you let go of it in 1/10 of a second or less?


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## 137cc (Jan 5, 2011)

taxmantoo said:


> When something goes wrong with axe and wedge, you can drop the axe and run away. Is this falling belt wrapped around your body? Can you let go of it in 1/10 of a second or less?


 
It wasn't a belt to hold your axe and wedges with. The belt was for what the axe and wedges should be doing. You would have to squat down, stick the tongs in the backcut, then stand up to lift the tree over. So yes it's wrapped around your body and no you couldn't run away. 

I believe the falling lever or whatever they call it is what has replaced the belt. Which yet again is another tool designed for small trees.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2011)

137cc said:


> It wasn't a belt to hold your axe and wedges with. The belt was for what the axe and wedges should be doing. You would have to squat down, stick the tongs in the backcut, then stand up to lift the tree over. So yes it's wrapped around your body and no you couldn't run away.
> 
> I believe the falling lever or whatever they call it is what has replaced the belt. Which yet again is another tool designed for small trees.


 
Falling belt? People actually used such a thing? Sounds like a good way to get smushed.


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## ChrisF (Jan 5, 2011)

137cc said:


> I believe the falling lever or whatever they call it is what has replaced the belt. Which yet again is another tool designed for small trees.


 
Is this orange bar what you're referring to? And yes, these be small trees indeed.


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## bitzer (Jan 5, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> That's not the "danger" most of us who have been know Blitzen. Real danger is not "in the woods" unless you talk like some do about logging. Danger is when you have no choices, a mission, a duty, an obligation to your team. Ask. Maybe you need some real life without all this ignorant adolescent put down of things you don't know jack about. YOU need to get out. Step away from the computer. And that's an order Blitz. :notrolls2:
> 
> So you cut at 1/2 speed ? Don't feel you need to look up and around ? Can't and won't absorb any new info ? Know it all ? Dead giveaways for not hiring on any team . Then again, you boys know all there is to know about felling, the industry, saws,......and life. Oh, forgot, you don't need to make a buck.:help::help:
> 
> ...


 
Who the hell is blitzen? check the tag. I'm all about the new info and new ideas. GOL ain't it, but you think its the end all. Seems you're always in here to pick a fight. Last thread you showed up in you started calling me names when I wasn't even refering to you in any way. I could give a damn about your jarhead status. Good for you. You bought the ticket and took the ride. Why don't you show us some of your work in pic/vid form instead of all the wet paper bag threats. You're the one who brought up "no danger falling". I don't know what your past life has to do with GOL anyway. Maybe your brain is more hard-wired to the machine like discipline of GOL tactics. Eh whatever. The game of old bags gets old. New idea from your camp?


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## bitzer (Jan 5, 2011)

Hey Hammer I see you down there. Hows the wood moving down your way these days? Last week it was hard moving and breaking early at 15 degrees, warmed up to about 35-40 and it was free swinging! Back to slow again. 5 degrees last night. 

Damn slow computer! Looks like I missed.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Not quite. It's one of those testosterone things: "mine is longer" :hmm3grin2orange:.
> 
> Hey I don't give a F what you or I use to work; all that counts is:
> 1. You do an honest day's work.
> ...



No, we PNW "girls" don't need any testosterone. Heck, I'm busy drinking soy milk (yuckers) and eating spinach (semi yuckers) to offset that thing that happens when "girls" get old. 

Quit your supposed to be insults and use some logic. How can you possibly fall trees fast enough using a bore cut, or safely without looking up occasionally? Just answer without insults please. 

Now on another topic, our training out here in the PNW is more like an apprenticeship. Fathers have had their sons follow along, packing gear. Others work in the rigging, which is better yet as then they learn how important it is to directionally fall for efficient yarding. 

How do the employers know they are hiring good fallers? Well, we have a thing known as *reputation* out here. Word gets around, potential employers ask around. They even consult us girls! Heavens!  Even we can tell who is good and who is not. I keep a list in my head of who is good and who is scary (stay far away from) because I have to venture down to do work in the same area. 

Washington and Oregon have logger accredation (sp?) programs. They are sponsored by the Association of Oregon Loggers and the Warshington Contract Loggers Association. One goes to classes on a subject and gets credits to it. A certain amount of credits are required each year to keep up the accredation. Geez bad spelling bothers but I'm too lazy to get out the dictionary, which is the ONLY *reliable* spell check. 

I'm curious. Is the _cut it and run like hell _method taught at GOL? 

If it works for you, go for it. But I don't see such a method catching on in the real world out here.


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## RandyMac (Jan 6, 2011)

Good Lord!!!

This place is full of foul mouthed, illmannered, ignorant punks. 

I'm sorry my friends, I will not be a party to such things, the place we used to call our own, is no longer happy.


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## STEVEGODSEYJR (Jan 6, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Good Lord!!!
> 
> This place is full of foul mouthed, illmannered, ignorant punks.
> 
> I'm sorry my friends, I will not be a party to such things, the place we used to call our own, is no longer happy.


 
:agree2::agree2:


----------



## jrr344 (Jan 6, 2011)

justme23005 said:


> You're entirely correct... I should apologize.. Everybody listening????
> 
> I'm sorry to any retards who I have offended.


 
Quit calling me a retard, oops I am about to miss my shorter than average bus....:bang:


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## justme23005 (Jan 6, 2011)

jrr344 said:


> Quit calling me a retard, oops I am about to miss my shorter than average bus....:bang:


----------



## slowp (Jan 6, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Good Lord!!!
> 
> This place is full of foul mouthed, illmannered, ignorant punks.
> 
> I'm sorry my friends, I will not be a party to such things, the place we used to call our own, is no longer happy.



It isn't a very happy place is it? I'm sorry, I used the HE double toothpicks word.
But it was used as it is in the woods. 

I like the Happy Place. I shall have to post more pictures after my root canal which is today.


----------



## Taxmantoo (Jan 6, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Falling belt? People actually used such a thing? Sounds like a good way to get smushed.


 
That's what I thought, but it seemed too scary to believe so I asked for clarification. 
What fool would attach himself to a device that's wedged in a falling tree? 
At least those pry bar things don't lock you in place when the tree sits back on them, you just let go of the handle.


----------



## floyd (Jan 6, 2011)

I did not read all this. 

Biggest gripe I have with GOL is logging is NOT a game.


----------



## paccity (Jan 6, 2011)

slowp said:


> It isn't a very happy place is it? I'm sorry, I used the HE double toothpicks word.
> But it was used as it is in the woods.
> 
> I like the Happy Place. I shall have to post more pictures after my root canal which is today.


 
i hope your dentist gives ya something to help with that happy place. and i hope everybody stays here in this happy place.


----------



## paccity (Jan 6, 2011)

i think a big part of working in the wood is using commonsense and instinct. all the training in the world won't keep you safe if you don't have it. there's a lot of people in the world don't have it. just my take on it.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 6, 2011)

*mystical boring experience*

I'll throw in a change. This was a beautiful moment

I am now cutting on one of the most beautiful areas of the Appalachians. This unit is maybe at about 3600' in a range where 6000' is tops. So far its all gravy. Off today, a little snow, and a little warm, with only 2-3 days left on the unit there is no reason to muck the hell out of it.


Yesterday. 
Arrived to the site before light. 
Dropped off the day's gear on the side of haul road, above my morning strip.
Parked the truck out of the way and walked back, dropped in, and meandered over to my first tree. Gray light and all the stems are black, but you can see now. Sunrise is straight out the hill, pink glow on the horizon and purple pink clouds layered in the distance.
East facing slope, 34" or so red oak butt, cutting it sidehill, faced to the south. I cut a deep conventional face in it to help pull it sidehill, veneer tree. I had to bore this stem due to lean, and being veneer.
Since the butt was too big to bore through with my 32" bar, I cut the offside by boring through my face and out the offside.
I bored in the face, I got down low and watched my work, pearing deep,into the dark face, bar punched out the offside. I eased her forward to establish my triangle post hinge for my offside and then began cutting toward the back to get all the offside I wouldn't be able to reach from the good side. 

I was watching this progres through the face and once I'd cut a few inches out of the back and the sawdust poofed clear of the kerf in front, shear beauty shone through. I swear to the almighty that dark face I was pearing into all of a sudden was glowing full of the dawn pink purple light pouring through my bored face offside cut kerf, I paused, the silver chain glinted the light. I thought holy #### that was beautiful, paused, then hammered on.

That was boring.
Moments like that is why I love my job.
Not to mention the 14,000mbf/acre flat ground poplar patch I was cutting in at the end of the day!!!


----------



## paccity (Jan 6, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> I'll throw in a change. This was a beautiful moment
> 
> I am now cutting on one of the most beautiful areas of the Appalachians. This unit is maybe at about 3600' in a range where 6000' is tops. So far its all gravy. Off today, a little snow, and a little warm, with only 2-3 days left on the unit there is no reason to muck the hell out of it.
> 
> ...


 
that's a happy place.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 6, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Good Lord!!!
> 
> This place is full of foul mouthed, illmannered, ignorant punks.
> 
> I'm sorry my friends, I will not be a party to such things, the place we used to call our own, is no longer happy.


 
Feeling the same way.

Too much rude behavior recently for my liking.


----------



## slowp (Jan 6, 2011)

*Can a Happy Place be a Funny Place?*

Thread drift to Happy Places. 

I just got home after two hours in the dentist chair. The dentist is good here, his people numb things sufficiently, but there was one point where I needed a Happy Place. 

There's one of those inspirational type deep thinking posters tacked to the ceiling.
It shows the crowns of trees and sky. One of the people that work at the dentist is the mother and wife of a couple of loggers I know. I heard her mention her son's name. So, I'm looking at the tree tops, hearing that name and suddenly the episode of him yelling an unoriginal word over and over after getting his saw stuck and possibly crushed pops into my brain. I almost start giggling. 

Is that a Happy Place? Or a Funny Place? Are the two different?


----------



## 056 kid (Jan 6, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> I'll throw in a change. This was a beautiful moment
> 
> I am now cutting on one of the most beautiful areas of the Appalachians. This unit is maybe at about 3600' in a range where 6000' is tops. So far its all gravy. Off today, a little snow, and a little warm, with only 2-3 days left on the unit there is no reason to muck the hell out of it.
> 
> ...


 

Im itching now. . .


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## Metals406 (Jan 6, 2011)

So far. . . I'm passing GOL. Game of Life


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 6, 2011)

paccity said:


> i think a big part of working in the wood is using commonsense and instinct. all the training in the world won't keep you safe if you don't have it. there's a lot of people in the world don't have it. just my take on it.


 
Very true, everything about the job is dangerous, whether it's the saw, the trees or others around you.
Everything is a calulated risk, but this is why we love it.
However, since I got hurt I look at every tree with apprehension regardless of size even though I haven't cut any down since.
Does this mean I need some post injury therapy? I think that means just getting back in the woods and putting it behind me. Lol
John


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## hammerlogging (Jan 6, 2011)

Yukonsawman said:


> I think that means just getting back in the woods and putting it behind me. Lol
> John


 
Yup.


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## Taxmantoo (Jan 6, 2011)

Yukonsawman said:


> Very true, everything about the job is dangerous, whether it's the saw, the trees or others around you.
> Everything is a calulated risk, but this is why we love it.
> However, since I got hurt I look at every tree with apprehension regardless of size even though I haven't cut any down since.
> Does this mean I need some post injury therapy? I think that means just getting back in the woods and putting it behind me. Lol
> John



Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder?
BTW, did you see my post a few pages back, where I drug up a thread of yours about quickly cutting 8" stems, and where somebody told you a limb might fall on your head?


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## lwmibc (Jan 6, 2011)

*Directional falling*

Hilarious thread! But, anyone explain to me why it took 6 pages before anyone (slowp) mentioned the importance of falling for efficient yarding?? We log 26,000 cubic meters a year in BC coastal mountains, and the falling direction for yarding is of paramount importance to a faller; established during pre-work on every cut-block. Boring/standard-cut, all decided for each tree to meet efficiency. I don't see what all the argument is about. Don't you all do what you gotta do, no matter what the training?

Biggest tree our pres cut in his career was 24' diameter, Vancouver Island. Seems that needs every technique you can use, including boring a hole for the saw to get in!


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## forestryworks (Jan 6, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> the 14,000mbf/acre flat ground poplar patch I was cutting in at the end of the day!!!



Lucky!


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## hammerlogging (Jan 6, 2011)

better edit that, 14 mbf or 14000 bf, NOT 14,000 mbf


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## logbutcher (Jan 9, 2011)

Gee girls, I thot you'd all gotten over this.....long ago. Still wads your panties, huh ?:monkey:

Apologies, for you men's men thinking that I just slithered away with tail between the legs. Been on assignment, kinda like work ( work ? ) without the time to hemhorroid (where's the spellcheck when I need it ?  )my way on the PC like the *usual suspects* of venom and danger-in-the-woods boys: gologit, hammer, Gary, blitzen, forestryworks, 2dogs, and other of the put-down PNW crowd. "We cut big timber. Our bars are longer than yours, you silly puny, non-pro":deadhorse:

Have you figured out what a Straw Dog is yet ? No ? Look it up. Thimk. All this assuming that someone dares to mention other ways to fell. Can you imagine ?

With this macho posturing let's do a little comparison: big timber only grows in your region. Smaller stuff in the rest of the world. Different techniques, shorter bars, same difficulty and danger IF it's done wrong. PNW weather to us is sissy stuff, warm and wet: no below zero, no heavy snow, no water holes under the ice or snow that gear falls into, no ice to deal with getting your harvest out to the roads. ( Look at the vids of the Pelletiers in northern Maine---my territory. None of this macho or "danger" fool stuff for them. It's a job. ) You want macho danger, let's talk cold and snow and ice ?

So, you need to build up your machismo with put downs of other skills, fine. It's a Straw Dog you set up; no real pros use any one technique only (except of course, those who can't/won't/don't have an open mind for any new skill :monkey: ). That's your trip. Sometimes we bore, sometimes undercuts, sometimes no open mouths, sometimes tiny bars for tiny trees under 16" DBH like much of northern Europe. It's the logger's skill using what works. GOL techniques work WHEN NEEDED. 

Frankly, all of your posturing online is baby drool. 

Flame away. Maybe I can get that spellcheck back to spell "hemmhorroid".

This thread is getting..................................................................................................
BORING.:spam:


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2011)

lwmibc said:


> Hilarious thread! But, anyone explain to me why it took 6 pages before anyone (slowp) mentioned the importance of falling for efficient yarding?? We log 26,000 cubic meters a year in BC coastal mountains, and the falling direction for yarding is of paramount importance to a faller; established during pre-work on every cut-block. Boring/standard-cut, all decided for each tree to meet efficiency. I don't see what all the argument is about. Don't you all do what you gotta do, no matter what the training?
> 
> Biggest tree our pres cut in his career was 24' diameter, Vancouver Island. Seems that needs every technique you can use, including boring a hole for the saw to get in!



Maybe cuz I'm not a faller? 

Every year there seems to be a problem with a faller coming in and not understanding the need to lay the trees so they can be yarded through the standing trees easier. Just one, and not too often. Most of the fallers are locals who have worked in thinnings and know their stuff. But once in a while...

We are now seeing some young guys and also some older ones who are used to dropping the trees down the hill in clearcuts, no bucking as there is a processor on the landing, and that's that. Just dump 'em. 

Then the rigging crew has to deal with it the best they can. I get nervous when a faller appears on a sale and I don't know them...

This is the view of The Forester...ooooohweeeeoooooh.


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## lwmibc (Jan 9, 2011)

Ten extra points for quoting Red Green!


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## 2dogs (Jan 9, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Gee girls, I thot you'd all gotten over this.....long ago. Still wads your panties, huh ?:monkey:
> 
> Apologies, for you men's men thinking that I just slithered away with tail between the legs. Been on assignment, kinda like work ( work ? ) without the time to hemhorroid (where's the spellcheck when I need it ?  )my way on the PC like the *usual suspects* of venom and danger-in-the-woods boys: gologit, hammer, Gary, blitzen, forestryworks, 2dogs, and other of the put-down PNW crowd. "We cut big timber. Our bars are longer than yours, you silly puny, non-pro":deadhorse:
> 
> ...


 
Well I think that is what has been said all along. Different situations call for different skills, there is no one size fits all technique. Emotions have no place in the woods. Let's play nice here too.

I'm done with this thread.


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## PB (Jan 9, 2011)

I am not going to wade into this argument, but here is some good information from '96-'97: OSHA Office of Statistics - Logging Review Report 

It looks like loggers in the southeast are killed more often than any other region, followed by the PNW. Proportional to the number of logging companies, there are more fatalities per company in the PNW than the SE. 

I didn't read the whole thing so I can't say if they looked at different logging practices (harvester, chainsaw, etc.).


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## forestryworks (Jan 9, 2011)

PB said:


> I am not going to wade into this argument, but here is some good information from '96-'97: OSHA Office of Statistics - Logging Review Report
> 
> It looks like loggers in the southeast are killed more often than any other region, followed by the PNW. Proportional to the number of logging companies, there are more fatalities per company in the PNW than the SE.
> 
> I didn't read the whole thing so I can't say if they looked at different logging practices (harvester, chainsaw, etc.).


 
I didn't read it either, but it's the steep, rough, broken-up ground out there that will get you.

There's only one false move.


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## PB (Jan 9, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> I didn't read it either, but it's the steep, rough, broken-up ground out there that will get you.
> 
> There's only one false move.


 
I would agree with that. When I was out there in June, the logging terrain is pretty miserable but not all of it is really treacherous. I think the remoteness is more of a factor than anything else. If something happens, you will be waiting for a long time before someone gets there. Logging in Maine is very remote but most of it is done with harvesters now so it is presumably safer. In that report there was only one fatality in Maine.

One thing I found interesting from the link is that there is no significant difference between age. I would have thought there would be more younger people than middle aged.


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2011)

There is no heavy snow.

There is no heavy snow.

There is no heavy snow.

White Pass Ski Area: Conditions

I was trying to post some pictures of the no heavy snow but I can't figure out the system. Oh well, since it doesn't exist....

I'm done now.


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## logbutcher (Jan 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> There is no heavy snow.
> 
> There is no heavy snow.
> 
> ...


 
No heavy snow.....:agree2:
Harvesting in White Pass Ski Area ? Who knew ? How much ?

Slowp--you know damn well that most PNW logging is done well out of Sierra country. Especially these self-appointed "pros" knowing all about all. :angry2:

The man is correct that much, not most, harvesting in northern Maine is Timberjack mechanized. Though Not all by a long shot since many independents can't afford the $$$$ harvesters. And, it is safer with a harvester. :agree2: Our trees are small.

So you got me there along with the Donner Party. Bon apetit. :hmm3grin2orange:

Please, where is spellcheck ?:deadhorse:


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## paccity (Jan 9, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> No heavy snow.....:agree2:
> Harvesting in White Pass Ski Area ? Who knew ? How much ?
> 
> Slowp--you know damn well that most PNW logging is done well out of Sierra country. Especially these self-appointed "pros" knowing all about all. :angry2:
> ...


 just can't let it go can ya.


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2011)

*Geography Lesson *

White Pass, where I ski, is on highway 12 which is also called White Pass and is located in the CASCADE Mountain Range which bisects the States Of Warshington and Oregon. The land on the west side of the Cascades is wet. The land on the east side is dry. We get snow. The snow level is around 2500 feet for all winter. The elevation where I live gets some heavy dumps which usually melt in a week. We are supposed to get a big dump on Wednesday.
The east side is colder and the snow stays around. Look up the snow records for Paradise, Mt. Rainier. You will be surprised. 

I have been snowed on every month of the year while in the Cascades. 

There's a whole state and a half between here and Donnor Pass. 

I'm done with this.


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## Gologit (Jan 9, 2011)

paccity said:


> just can't let it go can ya.


 
Yup,,,they ban guys like RandyMac and TarzanTree and keep an idiot like Logbutcher around. If I think about that long enough will it begin to make sense?


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## PB (Jan 9, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yup,,,they ban guys like RandyMac and TarzanTree and keep an idiot like Logbutcher around. If I think about that long enough will it begin to make sense?


 
Bob, there are probably people out there that wonder why you are here, they would be idiots but are still out there. That's why we have unbiased (hopefully) moderators. Play by the rules and you can stick around, don't and well then you should have read the rules. Rules are rules.


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## FSburt (Jan 9, 2011)

Good dialogue fellow members lets move on to some more productive topics I think this one has ran its course and points have been made.


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## logbutcher (Jan 9, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yup,,,they ban guys like RandyMac and TarzanTree and keep an idiot like Logbutcher around. *If I think* about that long enough will it begin to make sense?



Big mistake Bobby....thinking. Gets you into trouble everytime.
Hey, idiot ain't too bad. As long as you don't buy the farm prematurely (big word meaning "before your time" :yoyo: ).

Butt: why does this mention of GOL get to you girls ?  Just one more trick used in a big bag of skills ....for most. 

Bout time this thread ends. Go to bed Bob.


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## Gologit (Jan 9, 2011)

PB said:


> Bob, there are probably people out there that wonder why you are here, they would be idiots but are still out there. That's why we have unbiased (hopefully) moderators. Play by the rules and you can stick around, don't and well then you should have read the rules. Rules are rules.


 
Well said. Rules _are_ rules. I think that's the same rationale the Nazis used when they were stoking the ovens at Auschwitz.

When rules are applied that ignore common sense, decency, and the rights of others, are they still good rules?


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## logbutcher (Jan 9, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Well said. Rules _are_ rules. I think that's the same rationale the Nazis used when they were stoking the ovens at Auschwitz.
> 
> When rules are applied that ignore *common sense, decency, and the rights of others*, are they still good rules?



...like name calling ? Put-downs ? Straw dogs ?

And Bobby, Nazis had no "rules", they ruled without any Rule of Law. It's why many here have put themselves in harms way past and present to prevent that.

You were told to go to bed . An order. opcorn:

End.


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yup,,,they ban guys like RandyMac and TarzanTree and keep an idiot like Logbutcher around. If I think about that long enough will it begin to make sense?



Grab a baseball bat and smack yourself on the head and it might begin to make sense. That's what I would have to do.

And I think it is time for the IGNORE function to be used.


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## Gologit (Jan 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> Grab a baseball bat and smack yourself on the head and it might begin to make sense. That's what I would have to do.
> 
> And I think it is time for the IGNORE function to be used.


 
It think it's more fun to read the post, consider the source, and _then_ ignore them. Kinda like you'd recognize the presence of a slug but not really pay any attention to it.


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2011)

I think I threw away my broken bat. A cast iron frying pan makes for a good substitute. Yay there's another "girl" on here.

So, should one coat the frying pan with PAM or trust in the seasoning prior to using it on one's head?


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## 056 kid (Jan 9, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> ...like name calling ? Put-downs ? Straw dogs ?
> 
> And Bobby, Nazis had no "rules", they ruled without any Rule of Law. It's why many here have put themselves in harms way past and present to prevent that.
> 
> ...


 
Your still going on? Haven't you realized that you are on the "thats ####ed" list? Cut your losses and learn how to cut timber, then talk ####...


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## Gologit (Jan 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> I think I threw away my broken bat. A cast iron frying pan makes for a good substitute. Yay there's another "girl" on here.
> 
> So, should one coat the frying pan with PAM or trust in the seasoning prior to using it on one's head?


 
LOLOL...I don't know. I'd ask her but it might give her ideas. I get into enough trouble around here without inventing any more. Ask her about all the coffee cups that migrate out to the shop and never get brought back in. That's a safer topic.


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## paccity (Jan 9, 2011)

why hasn't the plug ben pulled? how long can this go on? :help:


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## slowp (Jan 9, 2011)

It is bedtime. Some of us have to go out and harass loggers tomorrow. Let me see, snowplowing will probably be in order, maybe I'll paint another giant death cookie.
Art in the snow. No yellow.


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## 056 kid (Jan 9, 2011)

If everyone uses enough profanity collectively it should be enough to lock her up. .


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## paccity (Jan 9, 2011)

not all of it


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## Cedarkerf (Jan 10, 2011)

QUOTE=logbutcher;2694596]No heavy snow.....:agree2:
Harvesting in White Pass Ski Area ? Who knew ? How much ?

Slowp--you know damn well that most PNW logging is done well out of Sierra country. Especially these self-appointed "pros" knowing all about all. :angry2:

The man is correct that much, not most, harvesting in northern Maine is Timberjack mechanized. Though Not all by a long shot since many independents can't afford the $$$$ harvesters. And, it is safer with a harvester. :agree2: Our trees are small.

So you got me there along with the Donner Party. Bon apetit. :hmm3grin2orange:

Please, where is spellcheck ?:deadhorse:[/QUOTE]
How many ways can a guy be wrong in one thread. Cant belive how blided by ignorence the ignorant can be. Shoulda left this alone but so wrong I couldnt.

1 They logged in Crystal mountain ski area this year with Columbia helicopters son worked on that project.

2 We get a little snow for sure not like the North east at least I know that as fact.

3 We get cold again not like north east but when your windows ice up cause youve been in single digits for days on end that can be considerd cold.

4 Comman term up here is getting snowed out of the woods. To much snow for crummies and trucks to make it to landings. Log trucks carry tire chains for a reason and are well used.

5 Nearly all logging out here in Enumclaw/ white river corridor starts at 1500 feet and goes as high as 5000 feet.

6 Creeks and ponds freeze over the creek picture below is from a fall pic.

Ya might want to study your facts before you go all know it all.


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## paccity (Jan 10, 2011)

Cedarkerf said:


> QUOTE=logbutcher;2694596]No heavy snow.....:agree2:
> Harvesting in White Pass Ski Area ? Who knew ? How much ?
> 
> Slowp--you know damn well that most PNW logging is done well out of Sierra country. Especially these self-appointed "pros" knowing all about all. :angry2:
> ...


How many ways can a guy be wrong in one thread. Cant belive how blided by ignorence the ignorant can be. Shoulda left this alone but so wrong I couldnt.

1 They logged in Crystal mountain ski area this year with Columbia helicopters son worked on that project.

2 We get a little snow for sure not like the North east at least I know that as fact.

3 We get cold again not like north east but when your windows ice up cause youve been in single digits for days on end that can be considerd cold.

4 Comman term up here is getting snowed out of the woods. To much snow for crummies and trucks to make it to landings. Log trucks carry tire chains for a reason and are well used.

5 Nearly all logging out here in Enumclaw/ white river corridor starts at 1500 feet and goes as high as 5000 feet.

6 Creeks and ponds freeze over the creek picture below is from a fall pic.

Ya might want to study your facts before you go all know it all.











[/QUOTE]
ya, i think your just talking to a punky log.


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## madhatte (Jan 10, 2011)

Let's put a fork in this one, folks... I think it's done.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 11, 2011)

Agreed...

Gary


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