# two trees, same stump



## Great Feller (Sep 27, 2008)

If you have two or three large trees all growing up from the same stump what happens if you cut just one of them? I mean, what impact does this have on the remaining tree(s)???


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## 2dogs (Sep 28, 2008)

This is an extremely complicated topic. A faller I work with on occasion lost his falling partner to a double that came apart when it began to fall and crushed him. Gerry Beranek's book covers it well, much better than I EVER could. The bottom line for most of us is if you have to ask how then just leave it for a professional. If not then you had better spend a long time working through the possibilities if things don't go right.


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## tawilson (Sep 28, 2008)

Are you wanting to cut the whole thing down or, as I believe, wanting to cut one branch and leave the rest?


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## Gologit (Sep 28, 2008)

2dogs has it right. Post some pictures of the tree and give us more information. What you'll get is about twenty five different opinions on what to do. But...somewhere in all that conflicting advice you'll find what you need. In the mean time just leave the tree alone.


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## slowp (Sep 28, 2008)

From my own, non cutting but forestry perspective, on a tree with multiple stems near the ground, I tend to go with cut all or none. If you plan to only cut one stem, 99% of the time, one or more of the others will get damaged.
The tree is going to have a huge wound --the stump. You'll be adding another small wound where the saw or sawhead cuts into the other stem. It is also losing part of the top, which means less leaves/needles to absorb sunlight, which means a weaker tree overall. 

Now, I'm always finding where markers have only marked one stem to be cut, and I mutter a bit, but that tree will probably turn into a nice snag, which are in short supply according to some people. 

Note: I'm talking about coniferous trees, not hardwoods. I don't know much about hardwoods. 

Note 2: I'm not a real forester so maybe the above theory is bunk.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 28, 2008)

The fellas talking about the potential dangers are correct, but as for the tree- slowp is on track too. A huge wound at the base of the tree, entrance for rot and decay, weakening the remaining stems structurally- abiility to stay standing.


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## Zodiac45 (Sep 28, 2008)

I've got a large hatmatack (eastern larch) that's doubles about 3 feet off the ground. One side is dead the other is alive and seems ok. I'm just leaving it till the other side croaks. It's a tricky fall besides so I'm in no hurry.


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## PB (Sep 28, 2008)

Zodiac45 said:


> I've got a large hatmatack (eastern larch) that's doubles about 3 feet off the ground. One side is dead the other is alive and seems ok. I'm just leaving it till the other side croaks. It's a tricky fall besides so I'm in no hurry.



Hey Steve, batten down the hatches and hold on for the hurricane! Stay safe.


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## Great Feller (Sep 28, 2008)

Yep that's what I figured. It makes sense to cut them all or none of them. Thanks for the help....


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 28, 2008)

Around here, we cut the bad stuff and leave the good stuff, no competition often makes a beautiful log. For instance if you have a double header, you'd take the crooked one off to let the straight one with good log potential get bigger/taller/straighter/faster.


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## Bushler (Sep 29, 2008)

Not so fast, there hoss. Some species (doug. fir) tend to respond favorably to releasing one stem from a school marm. Think about it. The remaining stem gets more nutrition from the root wad, and gets MORE light.

Also to consider is the wind fall effect. School marms are two masts and sails, with one keel holding it up. In other words, school marms are ususally the first trees to blow over in severe wind.

I've cut marms for stand enhancement, with good results on fir. Hemlock not so much. White fir responds well too.

Cutting school marms is one exception I take to bore cutting.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

slowp said:


> From my own, non cutting but forestry perspective, on a tree with multiple stems near the ground, I tend to go with cut all or none. If you plan to only cut one stem, 99% of the time, one or more of the others will get damaged.
> The tree is going to have a huge wound --the stump. You'll be adding another small wound where the saw or sawhead cuts into the other stem. It is also losing part of the top, which means less leaves/needles to absorb sunlight, which means a weaker tree overall.
> 
> Now, I'm always finding where markers have only marked one stem to be cut, and I mutter a bit, but that tree will probably turn into a nice snag, which are in short supply according to some people.
> ...


Your right,the root systems are connected so, the other trees is probably going to die any way.The only time I would leave one would be on a pondarosa pine.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Not so fast, there hoss. Some species (doug. fir) tend to respond favorably to releasing one stem from a school marm. Think about it. The remaining stem gets more nutrition from the root wad, and gets MORE light.
> 
> Also to consider is the wind fall effect. School marms are two masts and sails, with one keel holding it up. In other words, school marms are ususally the first trees to blow over in severe wind.
> 
> ...



would'nt it be true if you took on of the stems the other stem would be less windresistant? That's why proper thinning is so important.For instances in a stand of white fir you would remove the supressed and overstory and leave evenly aged trees in fairly closely space stands . Because in heavy winds the roots and tops would will help protect them?


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

Great Feller said:


> Yep that's what I figured. It makes sense to cut them all or none of them. Thanks for the help....



Yep, none or all


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## Bushler (Oct 7, 2008)

Why would the remaining stem be LESS wind resistant? Both stems are held up by one root wad. Remove half the 'sail' area reduces the tendency to blow over.

Like leaning on your 'joined at the hip' brother when you're drunk. You'll both fall down......


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## Ivan H. (Oct 7, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Why would the remaining stem be LESS wind resistant? Both stems are held up by one root wad. Remove half the 'sail' area reduces the tendency to blow over.
> 
> Like leaning on your 'joined at the hip' brother when you're drunk. You'll both fall down......



lets say you picked up one stick you would be able to break it pretty easy,but if you put two ,three sticks together they would be harder to break. Why do you think the trees grow so close together in the first place.


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## Bushler (Oct 7, 2008)

Your model is flawed. I'm talking about uprooted trees, not broken tops.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 8, 2008)

That depends on soil conditions too. the wetter the ground easier it is for the wind to push them over.If you've seen a school merm with the root wad still on.You'll notice that it' two trees grown together so it has a bigger root system to compensate.the fact is the wind knocks down trees when the ground is wet, wether there regular tress or school merms.


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## Bushler (Oct 9, 2008)

I have seen lots of windfall school marms with a single root wad. The 'wad' may be elongated to compensate for the individual stems, but it's still a single wad.

Somtimes two trees will grow close togeather and resemble a marm, but are two seperate trees with two seperate root wads. Seen that too, but ususally you can see a cleft 'tween the stems that will extend to the ground, rather than a solid crotch.

I used to think school marms were cool, like a double yoker egg...but after several decades of observation I've become a fan of single stem trees, and will in fact almost always remove a stem from a white fir, or red fir marm during a thining/stand enhancement harvest.

Conversly, I ususally fall both stems if the tree is a hemlock or spruce.


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## Humptulips (Oct 9, 2008)

Bushler said:


> I have seen lots of windfall school marms with a single root wad. The 'wad' may be elongated to compensate for the individual stems, but it's still a single wad.
> 
> Somtimes two trees will grow close togeather and resemble a marm, but are two seperate trees with two seperate root wads. Seen that too, but ususally you can see a cleft 'tween the stems that will extend to the ground, rather than a solid crotch.
> 
> ...



You're on the right track with the hemlock and spruce. I found when we cut timber that had been thinned even a small marm knifed off a bigger tree would cause rot to start. After only 4 years we observed stain had run up hemlock as far as 16 feet.

Maybe I'm a bit confused when you speak of white fir. Aroud here it is a generic term for true firs such as noble fir and Pacific Silver fir. It rots as bad or worse then hemlock so I wouldn't remove one marm from a white fir but of course they are not prone to marms anyway, at least from what I've seen.
Maybe you are talking about Doug fir when you say white and red?
I have heard people differentiate between yellow and red fir both would be doug fir.


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## Bushler (Oct 9, 2008)

No, red fir is Douglas fir, the white fir I'm refering to is Grand fir. It will heal similar to Doug fir, with maybe a small localized blem.

Most of the hemlock and spruce has stump rot by the time it reaches 36" diameter whether its been mechanicaly damaged or not. Just the nature of the beast.


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## Bushler (Oct 9, 2008)

Ooops, I should clarify that, the spruce and hemlock HERE on the SW Oregon coast, will ususally show stump rot when they exceed 36".


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## Humptulips (Oct 9, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Ooops, I should clarify that, the spruce and hemlock HERE on the SW Oregon coast, will ususally show stump rot when they exceed 36".



When I logged the back 40 or I should say the back 7 there were spruce up to 80 inches without a speck of rot. Some of the high country hemlock around here grows real big with no rot but the coast stuff like you said. 
I logged a unit on Higley Peak of big hemlock with no rot. It was incredible, 240 thousand to the acre. No kidding, best timber I ever saw and I didn't take one picture. What a moron!


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## Ivan H. (Oct 9, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> You're on the right track with the hemlock and spruce. I found when we cut timber that had been thinned even a small marm knifed off a bigger tree would cause rot to start. After only 4 years we observed stain had run up hemlock as far as 16 feet.
> 
> Maybe I'm a bit confused when you speak of white fir. Aroud here it is a generic term for true firs such as noble fir and Pacific Silver fir. It rots as bad or worse then hemlock so I wouldn't remove one marm from a white fir but of course they are not prone to marms anyway, at least from what I've seen.
> Maybe you are talking about Doug fir when you say white and red?
> I have heard people differentiate between yellow and red fir both would be doug fir.



When you guys say hemlock,do you me western helmlock? We don't have any here to far inland and to high elevation.No I know a doug fir ,bottle brush looking neddles and pink heart wood and darker bark then White fir,or shasta red fir a.k.a silver tip.We have a lot of different speices.I'm going to have to go up there and check it out .It would be neat to see the differences. Every time I go to the coast here it blows my mind it's like a different world.


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## Humptulips (Oct 9, 2008)

Ivan H. said:


> When you guys say hemlock,do you me western helmlock? We don't have any here to far inland and to high elevation.No I know a doug fir ,bottle brush looking neddles and pink heart wood and darker bark then White fir,or shasta red fir a.k.a silver tip.We have a lot of different speices.I'm going to have to go up there and check it out .It would be neat to see the differences. Every time I go to the coast here it blows my mind it's like a different world.



Yep, western hemlock.
I recently spent a couple days in SW OR and it seemed like a different world.Couldn't get over how dry it was.


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## slowp (Oct 10, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Yep, western hemlock.
> I recently spent a couple days in SW OR and it seemed like a different world.Couldn't get over how dry it was.



They have Poison Oak and Tan Oak!


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## Bushler (Oct 10, 2008)

Tan Oak. All sap and no heart. Like most politicians.....


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## Ivan H. (Oct 10, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Tan Oak. All sap and no heart. Like most politicians.....



:agree2:


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## Humptulips (Oct 10, 2008)

I saw a few palm trees growing along side the road in peoples yards down by Brookings. Knew I had went too far south!


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## Ivan H. (Oct 11, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Yep, western hemlock.
> I recently spent a couple days in SW OR and it seemed like a different world.Couldn't get over how dry it was.


Think it's dry there ,You should come down here. I seen a coyote chasing a rabbit this summer, and they where both walking.


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## RandyMac (Oct 11, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Tan Oak. All sap and no heart. Like most politicians.....


LOL
you are right about that


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## slowp (Oct 11, 2008)

And tan oak is irritating!


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## RandyMac (Oct 11, 2008)

Yeah, the brush has that dust to it, makes you itch and makes the nose run.


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