# Dumpsters and driveway damage



## Xtra (Mar 5, 2005)

We just finished a large job clearing a lot of trees out of a wooded backyard. There were many large pine trees, so I ordered a dumpster for the site to put the pine in (here in NJ you can't burn debris, the landfills charge too much, and no one wants pine for firewood, so we generally just rent a dumpster to get rid of it).

So I have a 30yrd roll-off dumpster delivered. It's delivered during a snow storm while I'm out plowing and they park one of the skids on the edge of the driveway and crack it (the driveway was just put in this past fall).

We do the job, load the dumpster and call to have it removed.

I get a call from the homeowner (it had snowed again, so we haven't been able to grind his 20+ stumps yet) he tells me how happy he is with the removal of his trees, but he has a problem with the dumpster company. Right before he called I also received a call from the dumpster company telling me how we overloaded the dumpster and that the driver had to remove some of its contents. So I'm ready for the homeowner to tell me of the mess the driver left . . . no, that's not it, the driver had ripped out a 3x3ft patch of blacktop! I go to the site, what a mess! Then I go to the dumpster company office and I'm told they aren't responsible for any damages to driveways. 

It seems the driver was pissed that he had to roll 4 logs off the top, so knowing he isn't held responsible for damages, he put the back stabilizing bar of the truck down on the driveway and while loading the dumpster he didn't tilt the truck enough and just dragged it thru the driveway.

I've have rented many dumpsters and never had any driveways damaged. 
Was I just lucky in the past? 
Has this ever happened to you?


----------



## treeman82 (Mar 5, 2005)

A friend of mine who doesn't have a log truck, or a loader, he pays somebody a couple of bucks to come in with a logging truck and take away the logs. All he has to do is cut them to length (22'?) and that's it. When you take into consideration that a 30 yard dumpster is $600 by the time you are done with everything, it pays to have somebody else come in and take the logs for less money.


----------



## Xtra (Mar 5, 2005)

The dumpster cost me $400 for a 30yrd.
(no logging trucks here in central jersey)


----------



## treeman82 (Mar 5, 2005)

How much for the labor / machinery to fill it?

If you look around, you WILL find somebody who has a logging truck.


----------



## dayman (Mar 5, 2005)

You might have a wobbly, weak leg to stand on in court. 

BUT...anyone who is a professional is expected to act in a professional manner. If something is done that is outside of expected behavior you might have a case for negligence. Damages can't be taken care of with a shrug of the shoulders and the dumb look. 

The driver may be held to a higher standard. If the driver did something that is out of the ordinary he could be held liable. 

But...you have to prove it and then try to collect. Two difficult projects.


----------



## Xtra (Mar 5, 2005)

You right the additional costs can add up.

I'm lucky that I can borrow a skidsteer with a grapple for free. The guy operating it was getting $15/hr for 8hrs.
My trucks could have handled the pine cut up, but I have no where to take it except my local landfill. At $400 for the dumpster it's about the same price as the landfill.

I'll try searching for logging companies in my area.


----------



## Newfie (Mar 6, 2005)

Sounds like carelessness on the part of the dumpster dude for sure....BUT it sounds like your client got screwed harder by the hacks that did a sh!t job on the asphalt job. When done properly it shouldn't break off or peel up, especially in the cold temperatures.


----------



## eyeinstine (Mar 6, 2005)

Wow... sorry to hear about this happening Bob... I guess i cant add much. But just to repeat what Bob has been saying to everyone... It would be near impossible to get rid of the pine as 'logs'. There are VERY few loggers in central NJ. I know of one... And i offered him a 30" DBH black walnut, about 20' long, 18" at the end. Just wanted to trade it for equal amount of firewood or such.. He wasnt interested. So i know he's off the list for pine! There really is no market for pine other than paying to get rid of it in one form or another.

I would think the dumpster company should hold most, if not all, the responsibilty for this. Did you sign a contract/receipt with the damage to driveways clause in it?? If not, then they are at fault and have to pay. If you did sign something to that nature, i still think the courts would see them responsible if the damage was caused be 'stupidity'. That damage clause is really ment for the cracking that the driveways get from the heavy trucks driving over them.. The truckers dont know what the base is under the drive, so theres no way of knowing if it is going to sink.. But that is not the problem here.. Also, the driver who delivered the dumpster would also be liable, as he didnt offload it in a place that would have made for safe reloading.

I would take a bunch of pics of it for sure.. I would talk with the home owner and try and be on their side, a three way battle isnt good, and they would come out on top. Assure them that one way or another their driveway will be fixed. Depending on how hard nose they are going to be about it, they will probably want a whole new driveway since patches dont normally hold up as long. If they will be happy with a patch job, then even if your stuck with the bill, it wont be so bad.. But i would go right to the owner of the dumpster co. (by the way, his name is Sam Russo. My mother in law raced modifieds with him for a few years.) and see what he has to say.. Show him the pics. See what he says.

I guess in the end, it would could either be solved in court, or someones insurance would be paying for it; but that aint no fun either way..

Good luck,
Ron


----------



## geofore (Mar 6, 2005)

*dumpsters*

When we get dumpsters for trees here there is a tree outfit that takes them. They have a tubgrinder setup and grind it for mulch. No trash in the mix with the trees. Some of the towns around here have tubgrinders and let you bring the trees to them for grinding. I think you should call around and find out if there aren't setups like that near you. It beats hauling it to the dump. Check around to see if someone isn't setup with a tubgrinder in your area. When you cut trees in an area, call the municipality and ask what hours you can work (make noise), do you need to get permits to cut the trees and ask if they have or know of someone that does tubgrinding. A couple of phone calls might save you a few bucks.


----------



## eyeinstine (Mar 6, 2005)

Dan,
I dont know about all that.... Should the arborist know and understand the mechanics of a driveway?? Too a degree yes, but only so that his own trucks dont do damage. the dumpster folks KNOW what there equipment weighs, they knew what was going in it, so they should be the ones to speak up to the arborist about the weight and damage issue.

but i dont think it was a weight and damage to the driveway by the truck issue.. I think the issue is the way the container was dragged and loaded onto the truck.??

Ron


----------



## Lumberjack (Mar 6, 2005)

Do you have any pics?


I bet its the drivers fault, but getting any compensation for it is going to be hard.


----------



## treeman82 (Mar 6, 2005)

Around here the roll off container companies have weight and size limits for their containers. If you go over the weight limit, they start charging you extra. So I don't think that they should know what the final weight is going to be.


----------



## Xtra (Mar 6, 2005)

I wasn't going to name the dumpster company (I don't need a defamation lawsuit).

I know the family that owns the company, so the dumpster was ordered via telephone without signing a contract and due to additional circumstances, I can't pursue court, so this really turned into a cluster-"F" for me. 
(when I went to complain about the damage I could tell by the dispatcher's face, she knew why I was there)

To clarify -- the dumpster was not sitting on the driveway, it was on the dirt/ground behind the driveway, but the front skid was dropped about 6" onto the lip of the driveway. The driveway looked to be properly prepared, the section that broke was broken off from the edge. I've been around dumpster and know how they are loaded on the roll-off truck. Generally the truck bed is tilted and the dumpster is lifted as the truck backs up into the dumpster sliding up the ramp. It's fairly obvious that the driver just planted the rear bed of the truck heavily down on the driveway and winched the dumpster on as it pulled the truck backwards dragging the stabilizing bar/bumper into & thru the asphalt.

Luckily, the homeowner is very happy with my work (in fact he keeps wanting to pay me even though I haven't finished his stumps), he places total blame on the dumpster company. A guy next to my garage owns a paving company, so I should get a good deal on the patch. Also now the homeowner is thinking about widening his driveway since some of the trees are now gone, if he does then the patch would be free.

Thanks to Ron (eyeinstine) for taking a lot of the hardwood from the job and saving me a few trips back to my shop to dump wood.

I'll just choose a different company next time and just chalk this up as a lesson learned and add it to the joys of starting/owning my own business.


----------



## Lumberjack (Mar 6, 2005)

Heck, that dude needs to buy a crane since he can gauge weight so well .

How can a driver look at a dumpster and tell its overloaded, then fix the problem with removing 4 logs by hand to make it all better? Doesnt sound likely. 

I agree that to fully fix the situation the whole driveway will have to be replaced.

It sounds like gross negligence on there part, one way to prove this is overload a container, have it on a similar driveway, and show how easy it is not to rip out a huge section of driveway. Then again, I do trees, not dumpsters.

I would deff not use this company again.


----------



## Xtra (Mar 6, 2005)

The driver considered it being overloaded as in we put material too high in the dumpster (the logs he removed were only around 10" x 6'). 

Usually we bring the pine logs back to my shop and we stockpile them. Once there is enough we order a dumpster to get rid of them. This job it was cheaper to have the dumpster delivered to the customer's house.

In the past if we overfilled a dumpster at my shop the company would call, refuse to pick up and tell us to remove some of the wood (the company is just a few miles from my shop & I rent a dumpster about every 6 to 8 weeks or if I have a large lot job).

This last time the driver called his dispatcher _after_ leaving the job site to tell them the dumpster was overfilled.


----------



## Xtra (Mar 6, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> The containers have rollers on the back of them are are always dragged onto the trucks. The rollers aren't very large in diameter and must have sunk into the clients driveway. . .



The rollers on the back of the dumpster never touched the driveway, they always remained on the dirt.

Even the skidsteer operator who loaded the dumpster with logs, and has loaded well over 100 dumpsters for that company, concluded the same thing I did about how they incorrectly retrieved the container. 

I have to give some estimates around that area today, I'll try to take some digital pics of the site.


I just got an interesting suggestion to get rid of my pine. Buck it into 2' lengths, split it and then chip it. I'll have to figure out the labor cost on that one.


----------



## Koa Man (Mar 6, 2005)

If I was cutting the getting rid of that much pine on a regular basis, I would buy a portable mill and make some pine boards. Those I'm sure you can sell. A decent mill will probably set you back about $10K, but you will be able to recoup that by selling lumber, or doing custom milling for others. Mills here charge about $100 an hour for milling. I recently bought a mini skid steer with a bunch of various attachments. I checked with some landscapers and building contractors I know and trust and they already want to rent it from me, but the mini won't be here for another 2 weeks. The rentals will pay for the machine and then some. You can do the same with a mill.


----------



## eyeinstine (Mar 6, 2005)

???? Dan, your a tough cookie! 

Well it seems Bob is in a pinch no matter what.. If he had no prior relationship with the dumpster company, then he could fight them, as i believe, they are totaly at fault. The dumpster was not loaded onto the truck correctly. Regardless of how full it was or who ordered it. If it was loaded correctly (winched) onto the truck, it would not have happened.. They way it sounds to have been loaded onto the truck, the damage would have happened even of the dumpster was empty.

The only saving grace Bob's got, is if the home owner is definitly going to widen the driveway, then you can offer to throw him a bone.. Maybe take down another small tree, knock 100 bucks or so off the bill, etc.. that little patch atthe endge of the drive, in the same area they will be widen isnt going to cost them any more money. So anything they get or save now is money in the pocket, and it avoids fighting and haggling between the three partys..

Best of luck Bob, and i hope it works out...

Ron


----------



## eyeinstine (Mar 6, 2005)

Koa Man said:


> If I was cutting the getting rid of that much pine on a regular basis, I would buy a portable mill and make some pine boards. Those I'm sure you can sell. A decent mill will probably set you back about $10K, but you will be able to recoup that by selling lumber, or doing custom milling for others. Mills here charge about $100 an hour for milling. I recently bought a mini skid steer with a bunch of various attachments. I checked with some landscapers and building contractors I know and trust and they already want to rent it from me, but the mini won't be here for another 2 weeks. The rentals will pay for the machine and then some. You can do the same with a mill.




Hey, dont talk him into a mill!! I'd lose out on that beautiful oak firewood i got! 
Really though, i dont think the pine lumber will go over too good around here.. Alot of the pines in NJ are white pines, and planted christmas trees.. Its not too often you find tal, clean, straight pines with enough diameter to make milling worth while.. And even whenyou do, its not usually a harder denser pine like some of them down south or in the NW.

Ron


----------



## Koa Man (Mar 6, 2005)

eyeinstine said:


> Alot of the pines in NJ are white pines, and planted christmas trees.. Its not too often you find tal, clean, straight pines with enough diameter to make milling worth while.. And even whenyou do, its not usually a harder denser pine like some of them down south or in the NW.
> 
> Ron



That's a bummer. The pines we have in Hawaii are either Norfolk or Cook Island. A lot of them are 2 ft. diameter or bigger, pretty straight and often 60' or more. Over the past 20 years I have removed about a 100 of them. Not enough to justify a mill for me, plus I have no place to set one up right now.


----------



## NeTree (Mar 6, 2005)

I didn't read all of the replies, so excuse me if I'm repeating:

Ultimately, just because a company _says_ they aren't responsible for something, doesn't mean they aren't. The driver is clearly responsible for the damages- even if the dumpster WAS overloaded. He should have known the best course of action would be to have the excess removed so he could properly retrieve it. 

(Example: Most supermarkets have a few signs outside stating they aren't responsible for damages done by shopping carts. Really, this is meant to discourage people from trying. But if you push it in small claims, they have to pay. Simple as that. I speak from experience on this one.  )

Xtra- I do the same thing with most of the crummy pine I get. Split it, and chip it, then sell the chips. Anything decent I can get out in log length goes to whoever will pick it up first.


----------



## NeTree (Mar 6, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> I wonder who the clients holds responsible? I think most of my clients would listen to my story....but still feel I was at fault if for no other reason than that is was me that hired the improper dumpster co.
> 
> Dan



From the client's view, the tree company hired the dumpster company, so the tree company is at fault. If the client seeks immediate relief, the tree company should fix the driveway, and then seek reimbursement from the dumpster company, who is ultimately responsible.


----------



## Xtra (Mar 6, 2005)

I think this may have been a new driver. The drivers in the past (there are two that usually pick up from me) always backed their truck into the dumpster as it loaded and never tilted the bed all the way up until the rear bar touched the ground. This was either inexperience or done on purpose? In fact I instructed the company to place the dumpster in the yard on the grass just so this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

I'm usually on site while they load. This time they had waited several days to pick up and I was out snowplowing at the time (weird, I was plowing when they dropped it off and picked it up).

As for overloading and two trips, it's all a wash, since sometimes they'll take a dumpster from the shop early with only a partial load, if they need it. I've known the company for many years (thru another company). Something's up this year, they even raised their price $100 this year. In the past I'd pay $300-350 for a 30yrd.

It's a shame I had to get rid of that pine (pitch pine) in a dumpster. There were about 7 that were 70'+ by 24" to 36" and pencil straight with only branches at the top 20'. In this area of NJ, mills don't want any residential trees (too many nails) and I don't think there is a market for milled boards with Home Depot or Lowes located every 15 miles.

Well, thanks for everyone's input, I gotta go and give some estimates.

And the homeowner will have his driveway fixed and it will be out of my pocket, I'm saving my insurance for only big mistakes.


----------



## NeTree (Mar 6, 2005)

...then they're responsible for not properly training their *new* driver...


----------



## glens (Mar 6, 2005)

And maybe it wasn't a new driver at all, but one who often has to deal with containers you overload.&nbsp; His job is to arrive, pull a cable to the container, and winch it up onto the truck.&nbsp; He should not have to climb into the container and throw material out first.


----------



## NeTree (Mar 6, 2005)

...in which case I would've said screw that, and kept on truckin'.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 7, 2005)

Hmmm very interesting.

Around here the Principal Contractor is liable and needs to rectify or pay for the damages and re-coup those from the sub-contractor who did the damage via a negligence claim.

You see, Mr Customer hired you, not The Dopey Dumpster Co, and only has to deal with you. What happens behind the scenes is not his problem. And as a professional you shouldn't be making it his problem, just fix it and sort it out with the dumpster company.

Imagine you were getting a house built by "The Best US Housing Co". Soon after moving in you found leaking plumbing, broken roof tiles, jamming doors and a light switch didn't work. You'd expect to just ring "The Best US Housing Co" and have it fixed wouldn't you? And how would you feel if they said, "oh no, you'll have to call the tiler, the plumber, the electrician and the carpenter contractors yourself and sort it out with them!

There's more to owning a tree business than cutting trees, you are ultimately held responsible for every wanker, so choose carefully.


----------

