# Pine Trees dying- cannot get any Arborist help



## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

made a number of calls to no avail and just found this forum.

pictures to come

history:

one pine tree about 12 ft died slowly from late winter to early summer this year . needles turned yellow at tips then orange and tree became dry very brittle.

cut tree down a week ago, noticed termites at stump.

two other trees that are about 20 ft tall and 6 ft apart. one is browning fast this week.

natural gardening, I have done nothing special to the trees but the people who cut the dead one down trimmed some extended branches on the other two at the same time. soil is not sandy and tress are about 7 years old. 

I have left pine needles at base, no mulch, some roots exposed, no excessive watering at base of trees, just runoff from watering lawn I guess.

unobstructed from light

HELP!


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## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

pics added. tree near the fence that gets more light is less affected

http://mooremedia.biz/work/trees.html


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## sawinredneck (Oct 8, 2008)

Looks like the Pine Bettle kill we are having in KS. A parasite is attached to the pine bettles moving from tree to tree.
I DO NOT KNOW if this is whats happening there.
If it is, you need to cut down ALL infected trees, even if they are just turning brown and burn everything, even the stump!! Once it's a little brown it's too late!!
I hear there is a treatment for NON infected trees, but i's pricey.


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## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

hmmm, we'll i finally got an appointment for someone to come out monday but gheez i wish i could have gotten a callback sooner from my 10 calls 2 weeks ago .

anyway, I'd be willing to spend a bit on the treatment if it's less than the cost of new trees this size.

one tree is going kinda fast. they provide nice privacy and are so wonderful i'm really sad this is happening.

I'll do what i can, maybe i can save the one last one...

thx for the quick reply.


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## sawinredneck (Oct 8, 2008)

If it is pine bettle kill, and there is only one, I would be afraid of a total loss! Sorry, not what you want to hear I know.
I have seen this a lot around here, people loose one tree and replace it without removing the problem, then they all die including the new one.

Sorry it has taken so long to get someone out there and look.


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## Ed Roland (Oct 8, 2008)

Southern Pine Beetle (SPB), Dendroctonus frontalis is in fact in New Jersey but there would likely be visable damage to the trunk from their handiwork.






Photo courtesty of USDA/USFS

Here is a pic of some of the damage associated with the pine shoot beetle, Tomicus piniperda.






photo courtesy of Cornell University

Yes, have a certified pro out to diagnose the issue. It could simply be a case of a tree planted too deep with not enough water to sustain vitality. Please be sure to keep us posted concerning whatever information you recieve.


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## Ed Roland (Oct 8, 2008)

How is the air quality in your part of Jersey? Hydrogen fluoride damage to pine needles. 






Your arborist better be up on his diagnostic skills.

Good luck


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## sawinredneck (Oct 8, 2008)

Thank you weasle, I was hoping someone fro the area could shed more light on it.


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## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

great info. dark now but i'll check the bark more closely tomorrow.

no visible heavy manufacturing or smokestacks- cherry hill nj. air quality not tested however.

i just see needles effected first. on slight yellowing they fall off.

funny, why would this take so long to come about and then suddenly the problem accelerates?. would seem to point to disease or infestation just by my simple observation but we shall see...

ps- those dead branches at the base, should they be cut and is mulch required in general here?

tia


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## S Mc (Oct 8, 2008)

I believe what Sawinredneck is referring to is the Pine Wilt Nematode which is transported via the beetle. And whereas pine wilt is fatal quickly, the difference I am hearing here is the lack of persistant needles after branch death. You are stating that at the first yellowing they readily fall off, correct? In Pine Wilt the branches will fade to green or a silvery hue then brown. There will be no running of sap from wounds as the damage is to the parenchyma cells lining resin ducts.

I didn't see any indications on the pictures you submitted of traditional borer activity (with the one possible exception of a single hole - with no sap). So would be surprised if these trees succumbed to other types of beetle activity.

I, too, noticed that the trees appear to be planted too deep and you say you do not augment their water. This certainly could predispose them to stress however, the initial (front) tree appears very healthy. Has it always been more lush? Were the other trees less vigorous? Is it in a more naturally accessible area to moisture? But even at that, if these trees were succumbing to drought stress, the stress would have showed for a longer period of time with a noticeable decline rather than abrupt (in my opinion). 

As Woodweasel points out, there are pollutants which can cause the symptoms you are seeing on the needles, and I understand how there can be single susceptable specimen in a grouping. However, I would be surprised that one and then a couple more succumbed rapidly with others staying healthy.

White pines are supposedly resistant to the pine wilt nematode but there have been a lot of suspicious cases in the east of rapid decline and death in these pines. Whereas the symptoms aren't exactly the same, there is a simple diagnostic test you can do yourself to rule out pine wilt nematode. Soak a small block of wood from near the trunk of a suspected tree in water, at least for 1 hour, preferrably over night. Observe the water under a 10 power scope or hand lense. You should see the nematodes swimming in the water. (I'll be frank in saying that I keep asking someone to do this and so far no one has taken me up on it.  )

I realize I am not offering any helpful information here. But I will be very interested in finding out what this problem is. Please keep us posted.

Sylvia


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## sawinredneck (Oct 8, 2008)

See, maybe not as bad as I made it out?


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## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

Sylvia thanks for your thoughtful analysis.

To clarify and recap my recent observations which have been more focused recently in hopes of preservation. 

X= pine trees l= fence

X1 [6 ft] X2 l [18 ft] X3


first tree that died [X3] is approx 18 ft from the other 2 trees and has no large trees or shrubs around it. It gained approx 6-7 hours of direct sunlight and sat between two houses, again uncrowded.

I noticed needles yellowing in late winter 07 and figured it was a 'seasonal change' but deducted that an evergreen should not do this. Process over time [6 mo] slowly turned needles brown and branches were dry at the same time. *Needles did not fall off.* I said earlier they did but meant the newly dying trees needles come off easy to the touch.

cut down tree X3 based on recommendations. tree was very brittle, we noticed termites at stump. It has been dead for most of the summer

I had been watching the two other trees this summer as well and noticed very slight yellowing approx 3 weeks ago in tree X1. X1 has accelerated in whereby 75% of needles are fully yellow in a total of 4-5 days with the last 2 days making up the 60% yellowing.

tree X2 has slight signs of yellowing, no needles are fully yellow and this only affects 10% of the left side of the tree in my diagram. *tree X1 also started yellowing on left side first, bottom up, in fact as far as i can tell yellowing begins from bottom up.*

X2 has alway been lush.

key notes.

-fast acceleration of demise of X1, particularly after X3 was cut
-process starts in cooler weather
-yellowing seems focused on one side initially and goes bottom up
-needles do not fall off

lastly i'll take you up on the self test, not hard to do at all.

will follow with results.

ps- again just wondering, do you cut the branches at the base as per normal pruning, they don't seems dry or dead really


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## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

sawinredneck - yeah you had a gloomy picture but just from where I'm standing I feel I'm about to lose the 2nd of 3 trees within a week based on the rate of decline which is very fast right now.

have two people on deck to visit for tomorrow


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## frodiggs (Oct 8, 2008)

sorry, this is wrong

"Process over time [6 mo] slowly turned needles brown and branches were dry at the same time."

a little slow at first w/yellowing needles [ 2 weeks] but was quickly overcome [2 weeks] with 100% yellowing then needles turned reddish brown from there.


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## BCMA (Oct 9, 2008)

Your problem is cultural. Send me a PM with your phone number and I will discuss with you on how you can determine and solve the problem.


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## frodiggs (Oct 9, 2008)

got stood up by the local Arborists today but BCMA thanks for calling to shed light.

signs seem to point to too much water.

-flat green moss at base of trees up to 6ft mark
- the point where the branches connect to the trunk (nodes?) are kind of oozing water with wet rings and in this area the bark seems to be breaking off or rather peeling open . The rest of the bark on the tree is smooth as you go higher up. 'water' marks are up to 6ft
- left the water on overnight a couple times in the past and watered yard a bit agressively in the past
-all trees are at the end of a small slope in my backyard

today I cut off some very low branches that did not have pine needles on them, some were at the ground. some were dry and brittle but most were not

I started digging out the dirt around the base of the trees to let the roots breathe but have a question. I've only dug maybe 4-5 inches deep and I've come upon small roots. I assume the are the trees roots and not some others. I was looking for large roots.

so I'm afraid to dig too much as I will damage the roots so how deep do I go? 

The soil around the roots is not really wet right now.

tia


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## S Mc (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm surprised that BCMA didn't share his thoughts with the rest of us as we could have all benefited from his insight, I am sure.

Woodweasel pointed out that the trees were buried too deep and it is definitely a good idea to expose the root flare. If you are running into nothing but small, hair-like roots, these are adventitious feeders and not the structural roots you are looking for. (If in doubt, post some pictures of what you are seeing.)

From your original post I did not get the idea that you watered excessively. White pines are typically found on river and stream banks and actually are one of the pines that do like quite a bit of moisture; however, they do like good drainage. We see them in formal landscaped yards with irrigation with no ill effect. However, if your area there is not draining well and they are sitting in a pool of (underground) water, combine that with being buried too deep, that definitely could be an issue. 

Perhaps the pine that is doing better is not planted as deep as the others. I would certainly expose the root flare on all the trees in this row, as this would help in the diagnosing of this problem.

A stressed tree is going to be more susceptible to opportunistic pathogens that are in the area. So improving your trees' environment is definitely in their best interest.

Sylvia


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## BCMA (Oct 9, 2008)

frodiggs said:


> got stood up by the local Arborists today but BCMA thanks for calling to shed light.
> 
> signs seem to point to too much water.
> 
> ...



If you have not reached to top of the major buttress roots, keep digging. You should find where they spread out from the trunk. Do not be concerned about small hair-like roots or small roots that may be sprouting from off of the trunk. I you have already dup 4-5 inches and have not found the major buttress roots, bingo- there is your first problem. Excess watering is also you problem as we discussed this morning. Once you get the trees dug out, post some pictures and let us see what it looks like.

I did not post my thoughts because I did not have the time to type out the explanation. I thought it might be easier to just talk to the person.

The problem this person has is root crown rot due to deep planting and excessive watering.


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## frodiggs (Oct 9, 2008)

I never watered the trees directly but watered the lawn more often than most and did deep watering (30 min at least).

I can't say that water ever pooled at the base of the trees (surface) but they are all near the end of a 12-15 ft. gradual downward slope in my yard so the deep roots perhaps took in the water no doubt.

I understand now about the adventitious feeders and am working to improve the environment. I will complete the digging tomorrow. Perhaps from there an examination for possible pathogens would be in order?

questions:

- how large of a circumference should I be digging around the trees?
- when I see the root flare, how much do I expose and do I leave exposed for what length of time?
- there are some branches that are healthy and have a few needles and these branches are very, very low to the ground, should I leave? I did remove some that had no needles and were dead. Also how close to the trunk do I cut? They are also in the way of my digging technically


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## BCMA (Oct 9, 2008)

I never watered the trees directly but watered the lawn more often than most and did deep watering (30 min at least).

I can't say that water ever pooled at the base of the trees (surface) but they are all near the end of a 12-15 ft. gradual downward slope in my yard so the deep roots perhaps took in the water no doubt.


The water can still run down slope and create a “too wet” environment.

I understand now about the adventitious feeders and am working to improve the environment. I will complete the digging tomorrow. Perhaps from there an examination for possible pathogens would be in order? 

Try to keep from injuring the trunk and main roots. That may create an entrance point for pathogens. 
questions:

- how large of a circumference should I be digging around the trees?

The deeper you have to go the wider you should dig. You do not want soil to spill back into the hole and up against the tree trunk.

- when I see the root flare, how much do I expose and do I leave exposed for what length of time?

A good portion. More exposure is better.

- there are some branches that are healthy and have a few needles and these branches are very, very low to the ground, should I leave? I did remove some that had no needles and were dead. Also how close to the trunk do I cut? They are also in the way of my digging technically

It will not hurt the tree to remove some of the lower branches. Basically, cut them back to the trunk. If you have a pronounced branch collar, cut back to the branch collar.


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## Ed Roland (Oct 9, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Your problem is cultural.





BCMA said:


> The problem this person has is root crown rot due to deep planting and excessive watering.



Hmmm, could be... perhaps a nice fat conk sitting where that little bit of algae resides... 

"White pine is very susceptible to damage by salt. This species is also considered sensitive to air pollution, particularly ozone. There are a total of 277 insects and 110 disease organisms known to attack white pine." 
From the good people @ BTRL

Could be any number of things. Thats why it is so important to have a qualified pro come to the property to view the soil, touch the tree and collect the necessary samples for pathology in an effort to identify the issue. Master arborist or not, it is impossible to say definitively what the causal is from 5 photos.

His guess is as good as any though.


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## treeseer (Oct 12, 2008)

frodiggs said:


> funny, why would this take so long to come about and then suddenly the problem accelerates?. would seem to point to disease or infestation just by my simple observation but we shall see...


Physiological death from deep planting etc. can manifest in exactly this way. 

Can you see the trunk flare on your trees?


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## frodiggs (Oct 13, 2008)

been digging this weekend, finally see the flare on the dying tree. It seems it was about 6 inches under.

I exposed the roots and will work on the on ther tree today.


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