# Surprize when I got home tonight!



## Sandhill Crane (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm not going to sleep well. Gone all day and came home after dark, 8:15, 8:20 pm. or so. 350' driveway and dark, but there was a pickup in front of the garage and the brake lights came on as he backed and turned 90 degrees, then the headlights came on. I blocked him in and asked the stranger what he was doing, in the dark, in my driveway. Said he saw a for sale sign out front! (in the dark!) There is one, a quarter mile away, on the corner, for several places down the road. Asked him for his drivers license and he got ####ty. He backed up and got around my car but I got his plate and called the sheriffs dept. When the sheriff came he had already run the plate. Hmmm. Said they would look him up and have a little chat... 

So what do you guys do to protect yourselves? With most of the leaves down my splitter and conveyor are more noticeble from the road. And if you read between the lines, there are chain saws close by. I had already pulled the tonge out of the conveyor, but the engine is easily accessable. Pulled the hitch coupler from the tonge of the splitter a month ago, but same with the Honda engine, accessable. Four bolts and the love joy coupling slips apart. Pull the wheels I suppose, and trade our Golden for a Doberman. The dog was with me so it would not have mattered.

It is a wake-up call anyway, and a bad economy.... So what do you guys do?


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## Pleasant Ridge (Nov 7, 2010)

I hang steel targets by the road that have large dimples and holes in them.


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## rex (Nov 7, 2010)

i chain my drive way off every day and still lock the fort down.....

i was ripped off at my old place and it will never happen again

my new house has a extremly long drive and i chain it off every day...like you now that leaves are gone you can kinda just barely see my house from the road and thats a theifs dream....i also have 3 dobes that have the run of the property

that mofo would of never pulled out of the drive way if i had any thing to do with it....


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## Sandhill Crane (Nov 7, 2010)

I like it!


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## sawkiller (Nov 7, 2010)

There is a place in my drive I can park and you can't get around me or off my place. I have often parked there and cautiously aproached gun in hand when I see a strange vehicle in my drive. It is has always turned out to be someone that was supposed to be there so far! Maybe you should consider a couple fence panels to at least mask your equipment a couple peices of privacy fence will hide alot.


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## MacLaren (Nov 7, 2010)

just the basics really. already mentioned. you did all ya could really do. just follow up with the sheriffs offfice tomorrow. theres no doubt that dude was goin to rip you off. you were just lucky you got there. You could post a sign that reads this propery monitored by camera 24/7. That may thwart some off. Bad economy people maybee, but drugs is a different story. they dont give a damn. Gotta be careful about blockin these cats in. If you do it again make sure you have a pistol man. Im serious about that too. Ive saw way too many convicts in prison for shootin the hell outta people because they were jacked up on dope. Be carefeul and sleep well tonight my man. All will be allright.


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## nickelmore (Nov 7, 2010)

*I was thinking.......*

I'm thinking something like this.








Nothing worse than someone taking your stuff from your house..nothing.....


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## shelbythedog (Nov 7, 2010)

Situations like this are what got me to take a MI approved CPL training couse last weekend. Gotta be armed if you're gonna approach a total stranger in a dangerous situation such as this. As far as I am concerned he committed the wrong doing when he trespassed on your property, thankfully you stopped any theft/vandalism. Sadly, he has now been close enough to know what is there and is likely planning to return in the near future. Whenever I am securing any of my belongings I try to keep it in a reasonable perspective, I am only taking measures to "slow a thief down," if they want it bad enough they will get it. A wise man once told me that locks are only for honest people. I have been laughed at for chaining the wheels on my tandem axle trailer together and putting a sawed off ball in the tounge when it is parked, but guess what, it is still out in the driveway. Anything you can do to discourage a thief is a good thing, and "out of sight, out of mind" is always a great rule to live by.


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## John R (Nov 7, 2010)

If that happened he'd still be there when the sheriff showed up, one way or the other.
Sounds like you didn't block him in good enough.


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## Muffler Bearing (Nov 7, 2010)

You Do Know Why He Was There?

I would have walked up and shot the Mother ####er in the Head. Than stripped his truck for parts.


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## dingeryote (Nov 7, 2010)

By nature most thieves are cowards, and once you make eye contact and create a situation of potential conflict, they will go away and find easier pickin's. 

All the same. Chain your stuff up, put up some motion lights, block the drive if you can, and generally make things less convenient to be swiped.

You can't stop them, you can only make it so that somebody elses stuff that didn't take precautions, is a better option for them to steal.

You in the City or on the outskirts?

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Sandhill Crane (Nov 7, 2010)

What I really hate about thieves is they change you. They steal peace of mind and trust in people you 'kind of' know. You never really know who they are: strangers, friends, friends of friends, neighbors down the road, the kids buddies. They get in your head and homestead, change the way you think and do things, stealing/challenging your natural desire to trust. My parents taught me not to lie. I've jokingly said many times that I've been at a disadvantage ever since. Liars and theives... so what can I control, and what is simply beyond that, or unpractical. I like most of the ideas so far. Guns... no/maybe...probably not/maybe... shotgun? No. Hookaroon?

First; *BTY 1894 *registered to a *small black Chevy pickup and a Caucasian male in Fennville, MI. Some of you are very close by in S.W. MI

Second; Pull one wheel off the equipment; get a doggy door for attached garage (per sheriff's suggestion); run electric to woodshed and along drive for lights on motion detectors; shoot up a No Trespassing sign (I like that!); take a self defense class?; really big blinding flash lights in every vehicle next to pepper spray; and begin to carry that little digital pocket camera with a flash in my jacket pocket (that's kind of fun anyway to have around). Hmmm! My exbrother-in-law used to have half a dozen cars on their sides and upside down, junk everywhere in the yard. Said it kept people away, redneck style. Now days you would probably come home to an army of paint ball totin neighborhood kids and young dads having a blast. I wonder how much keycard gates are. Too much I'm sure, and it would look rich. A regular gate (what a pain, I'd be thinking of that chump every time I opened and closed it.) signals when you home, and when your not. Although, had I closed a gate behind me he would have been there when the sheriff came, good or bad. Sister-in-law works in a bank. They tell them to give them what they want and get them out the door.

Third: I did vote for the new jail (!) that did not pass, again.

Fourth! BTY 1894 MI spells CHUMP....
Keep the ideas coming... Thanks!*


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## Sandhill Crane (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm a few miles outside of town, deadend road, lots of summer places. Drawn to the rural beauty and then want all the city stuff. Bigger, better, greener (as in grass). Lots of traffic, remodels/construction/maintenance,UPS/Fedex multiple times per day, natural gas lines this year, weekend lookers, hunters, lots of litter.


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## Longshot (Nov 7, 2010)

Get you a coupla airedales or a boerbull; sleep tight!


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## harrybeaver (Nov 7, 2010)

"Nothing worse than someone taking your stuff from your house..nothing....."

Unless they shoot and kill you, that kind of sucks.

We have a driveway that can be blocked off with our car. If a unknown car is at our house we block off the driveway then ask from a distance what they are doing if itheir story sounds fishy we can walk/run to the neighbors and call the police. I know many don't have a neighbor nearby so that may not work, maybe a cell phone would. I think it best to not get too close and to avoid confrontation, you don't know how many there might be. 
My real concern is with my wife, especially when she has our two young children with her. For her it is best to not even block the other car in, just drive to the nearest public place while calling 911.


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## Junkrunner (Nov 7, 2010)

Sandhill Crane said:


> What I really hate about thieves is they change you. They steal peace of mind and trust in people you 'kind of' know. You never really know who they are: strangers, friends, friends of friends, neighbors down the road, the kids buddies. They get in your head and homestead, change the way you think and do things, stealing/challenging your natural desire to trust. My exbrother-in-law used to have half a dozen cars on their sides and upside down, junk everywhere in the yard. Said it kept people away, redneck style. Now days you would probably come home to an army of paint ball totin neighborhood kids and young dads having a blast.


You're right about it changes you. I TRY not to pre-judge people, but it's almost impossible not too, anymore. Old friends say that i've changed alot. They say; you're always up-tight and look pissed. I just can't help it. had my splitter stolen, then the SOB's got my jobsite, and stole 4,000 dollars in tools. The police is a joke. The first thing they'd asked was. You do have insurance??:censored: They aren't at all worried about my tools. I told them, never mind I'll take care of it myself. But, they promptly reminded me that i could get arrested for terroistic threats!! 

If you had junk cars laying around here, the low life pill heads, would steal it, and scrap it. It's gettin bad. i've mentioned this in another thread, but i'm dead serious. when I find the person(s) I'm gonna brand THIEF right on the forehead.


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## Tesen (Nov 7, 2010)

Sandhill Crane said:


> So what do you guys do to protect yourselves? With most of the leaves down my splitter and conveyor are more noticeble from the road. And if you read between the lines, there are chain saws close by. I had already pulled the tonge out of the conveyor, but the engine is easily accessable. Pulled the hitch coupler from the tonge of the splitter a month ago, but same with the Honda engine, accessable. Four bolts and the love joy coupling slips apart. Pull the wheels I suppose, and trade our Golden for a Doberman. The dog was with me so it would not have mattered.
> 
> It is a wake-up call anyway, and a bad economy.... So what do you guys do?



1) Concealed carry is a good thing.

2) Block your driveway with gates, lock them when you are not home and after you pull in your driveway. If you have a wife and kids, educate them to do the same.

3) Store your items inside a locked garage.

4) Install motion activated cameras put a sign on the gates as well. Really the setup is not that expensive.

I have a friend that used to get people pulling up to his work shed and house, his house was back from the road almost concealed. He woke one morning to find a guy helping himself to his wood supply. From that day on, he kept a 12 gauge under his bed loaded. His philosophy was that in combination with kicking on very intense floodlights, that the first step should always be a warning shot and then a leveled long arm at the intruders.

For a while he had a sign on his gate that read: "If you not invited to be here, you will be shot." apparently the Sheriff asked him to take it down 

I feel for you man, this is the worst feeling to have in the world. Your kingdom has been violated and often it leaves an everlasting bad taste in your mouth 

Tes


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## kyrob (Nov 7, 2010)

Just one guy in the truck? Kinda odd if he was there to to steal. I'd bet there was one or two more that took off to be picked up later or they was close by watching to see what your intentions were. Good thing you didn't grab the guy or they may have shown themselves in a bad way. 

"I like most of the ideas so far. Guns... no/maybe...probably not/maybe... shotgun? No. Hookaroon?"

May have to change your thinking to compete with thieves today. They may have been wanting to get inside to look for pills. That's what they are doing here. Lots of home invasions even when people are home to get pills and money. Best bet is a gun (kept with you) and know how to use it and accept the fact that you may have to use it to protect you and yours. 

When you are not home, you may want to pick up a couple of good trail cameras and aim them at your doors and equipment and driveway. They have some new ones out that will video and take pictures without any type flash at all. They are called blackflash cameras. Cheaper than a full blown surveillance system and they work.

Good luck and be safe.

Rob


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## savageactor7 (Nov 7, 2010)

sorry to hear about that, first thing I'd do is get some motion sensor flood lights. Most thieves hate to be seen. 

If you have a small game hunting license somethings mostly always in season esp ...varmints. That way you can keep a long gun right in your vehicle.

In the mean time you still have the guys number so learn what you can about him. See how he likes you parking in front of his house.:greenchainsaw:


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 7, 2010)

Pleasant Ridge said:


> I hang steel targets by the road that have large dimples and holes in them.



Subtle. I like that. No bragging, no threats. Just.... thought provoking.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 7, 2010)

Tesen said:


> 1) .... the first step should always be a warning shot and then a leveled long arm at the intruders.




Firing a warning shot is a *VERY* stupid thing to do. There are VERY few places where you are legally justified in shooting to protect property. (Texas is the only one that comes to mind.) A warning shot is tantamount to assault with a deadly weapon in most jurisdictions, as is *simply pointing a gun at someone*. Learn to use that thing properly - *which INCLUDES learning the legal issues* - if you have any intention of using a gun to defend yourself. Otherwise, your one stupid moment may cost you the right to bear arms for the rest of your life, not to mention bankrupting you with legal fees even if you DO manage to stay out of prison.





Tesen said:


> For a while he had a sign on his gate that read: "If you not invited to be here, you will be shot."





Also very stupid. Exceedingly stupid. *BRAIN DEAD 'WHAT KIND OF MORON PUTS UP A SIGN LIKE THAT' STUPID*. It shows *prior intent*. IF you have such a sign, and you actually DO have to shoot someone, good luck finding a lawyer to defend you against the murder charges that will be filed. You have just given the prosecutor all the evidence he needs to convince a jury that you are a "gun nut whacko just itching for a chance to shoot somebody to feed your macho ego". Think it doesn't happen? You are dead wrong.


We don't live in the wild wild west anymore. Some of us might wish that we still did, but the fact is, we DON'T.


Do I like the way it is? Do I support the way it is? Not even close. But it IS the way it is.


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## CountryBoy19 (Nov 7, 2010)

Honestly, if it were me, he would be proned out on the ground with a bunch of manure in his drawers because I carry everywhere I go, and his attempt to slip around the car would have been seen as an attempt to do harm to me.

My advice, get a gun, get a carry permit/license/whatever your state calls it, and carry, EVERYWHERE you're legally permitted to. That way you're never stuck in a situation like this wishing you had your firearm on you, it always will be on you.


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## Walt41 (Nov 7, 2010)

Mark is right, this is not the wild west. That said I will tell you what I use.
Gates-7' high, motion lights, motion activated cameras(Lorex), whole house alarm monitored by outside agency, Geese-nothing gets past them...nothing! And finally, a device made in Romania. I also make sure that someone is always around, even if I am gone, my brother will stop by at odd times to check on things.


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## rottiman (Nov 7, 2010)

When I am home, plan "A' - 12 ga. Defender - 3 "00" Buck
2 Brenike Slugs

When I am not home, plan "B" - His picture is below

Got hit once, the criminal justice system gave them a slap on the fingers and a pat on the a--

I will handle it the next time.................

Remember, Law Enforcement is there to investigate it after the fact, and call to have the scene cleaned up!!!!!!!!!!


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## Junkrunner (Nov 7, 2010)

Walt41 said:


> Mark is right, this is not the wild west. That said I will tell you what I use.
> Gates-7' high, motion lights, motion activated cameras(Lorex), whole house alarm monitored by outside agency, Geese-nothing gets past them...nothing! And finally, a device made in Romania. I also make sure that someone is always around, even if I am gone, my brother will stop by at odd times to check on things.


well hell that's like being in prison. and it shows potential thiefs you must have some really nice stuff to take. you fellas wanta live behind fences and gates? If they want it bad enough, they'll get it. I agree a warning shot is dumb and not to mention a waste of ammo. One shot, one kill. Hard for dead people to testify. Population control at its finest.


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## TFPace (Nov 7, 2010)

*Gate operator*

I would look at the gate operator. We did the manual swing gate until we grew very tired of getting out in the rain, etc.

I built the gates and hired a control company to install the operaotrs. The price was $4,200.00 and that was 15 years ago. It was money well spent IMO. I have a programmable timer that is opens and closes them automatically. Dad operates a campground and I have metal fabrication business.

With the economy like it is in NC thieves has come from everywhere. If it's not chained it's game for the thief.

I agree too on how a thief changes you. We had an attempted theft take place 2 years ago while the gates were open. Dad came upon a fellow sitting at our shop and when questioned he said he was "looking for work" dad was puzzled as to why his lift gate was open so he pulled around to take a look at find all of our Husky saws plus a Partner cut-off saw. Dad pulled those out and tried to wrestle the keys away from the guy in the car.... the guy drove away and dad looked over to see another guy exiting our tool shed with two other saws. :censored:

Long story short they were caught and are still in jail. We both now are very cautious as to who comes to our place of business. We both are conceal carry equipped. And we ended up spending $3,800.00 for 2 burgular alarms systems for both shops!

The next route of a closed circuit camera system to a tune of $4,000 +.

Maybe things will get better but for now we're on guard!

I'll be interested to hear what your sheriff has to report!

Tom


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 7, 2010)

CountryBoy19 said:


> Honestly, if it were me, he would be proned out on the ground with a bunch of manure in his drawers because I carry everywhere I go, and his attempt to slip around the car would have been seen as an attempt to do harm to me.




Yep. Followed by a 911 call. "A man is on my property threatening me. I am holding him at gunpoint."


No threats. No "promises". If you are the type to go after him yourself, KEEP it to yourself. Shut your big mouth. 


Otherwise, you are just advertising your stupidity.


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## STLfirewood (Nov 7, 2010)

CountryBoy19 said:


> Honestly, if it were me, he would be proned out on the ground with a bunch of manure in his drawers because I carry everywhere I go, and his attempt to slip around the car would have been seen as an attempt to do harm to me.
> 
> My advice, get a gun, get a carry permit/license/whatever your state calls it, and carry, EVERYWHERE you're legally permitted to. That way you're never stuck in a situation like this wishing you had your firearm on you, it always will be on you.



This is what I do. I carry everywhere I go. My wife has concealed carry also. I hope I never have to shoot the thing. But if I ever have to at least I have it.

Scott


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## woodman6666 (Nov 7, 2010)

A good dog helps alot they usually know when someone is up to no good. Also those little signs at the end of the drive with a security company name on it (even if you dont have a security system) I think helps. I look at it this way if you make your property more challenging than the neighbors they will probably go to the neighbors. Oh one more thing when we built our new house we put a few cameras that record anytime they see motion. 

www.procutfirewood.com


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## teatersroad (Nov 7, 2010)

I play the banjo and drape dead cats over my mailbox.

A gate and a dog, should help with the too convenient drive by.


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## rottiman (Nov 7, 2010)

Just remember 3 things. 1. DON'T SHOOT HIM IN THE BACK
2. DON'T SHOOT TO WOUND
3. MAKE SURE HE HAS A TIRE IRON, BAT OR CROW
BAR IN HIS COLD DEAD HAND
It's his word versus yours..................................................


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## Muffler Bearing (Nov 7, 2010)

My wife calls 911 and tells the operator that there are 2 people in our work shop. Operator tells my wife to stay in the house and the sherriff will be there after he raps up a traffic accident. Wife asked for him to come NOW! Dispatch tells her he's busy.
I call back 2 minutes later...tell dispatch I just shot both of them....so no hurry.
Sherriff was there in 90 sec. Found out I didn't shoot them.

He said I thought you said you shot them? I said thought you said you where busy?


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## Tesen (Nov 7, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Firing a warning shot is a *VERY* stupid thing to do. There are VERY few places where you are legally justified in shooting to protect property. (Texas is the only one that comes to mind.) A warning shot is tantamount to assault with a deadly weapon in most jurisdictions, as is *simply pointing a gun at someone*. Learn to use that thing properly - *which INCLUDES learning the legal issues* - if you have any intention of using a gun to defend yourself. Otherwise, your one stupid moment may cost you the right to bear arms for the rest of your life, not to mention bankrupting you with legal fees even if you DO manage to stay out of prison.




Hey man I did not say I supported his judgement. I got a chuckle out of it thought I'd share some slightly amusing information, sorry I should have stated I did not suggest it.

Probably why the Sheriff told him to pull down the sign; as you said sign showed he had intent to shoot someone. Probably bad call on my part to post something I found amusing.

Apologies to all, in no way do I support shooting someone, I do support defending yourself if hostile/life threatening action is taking against you.

Tes


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## rex (Nov 7, 2010)

on one of the posts that the chain is connected to at the end of the drive i wrote" dont fawkin touch" and some one went as far as writing azzhole below i got a good laugh outa it but at the same time i was pissed that some one went to try and open the lock and then wrote that on the post....


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## jasult (Nov 7, 2010)

I had almost new skid steer trailer stolen a few years back and the guy and his truck were caught on my camera's for 20 minutes. I have 8 camera's recording 24/7. Cops took 2 weeks before detective would look at video. What a joke.
Never got nothing. Last year, I had 10,000 Bobcat attachment stolen from same yard and same camera's saw entire thing. Cops took video and never did a thing.
Both were done in middle of work week but no one noticed a thing in the 50 acre truck terminal. The owner of the property now had a professional install licence plate camera's at the only gate and they do work. You have to protect your self because once they take it, you are on your own and mercy of insurance co if you carry insurance.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 7, 2010)

Tesen said:


> Hey man I did not say I supported his judgement. I got a chuckle out of it thought I'd share some slightly amusing information, sorry I should have stated I did not suggest it.
> 
> Probably why the Sheriff told him to pull down the sign; as you said sign showed he had intent to shoot someone. Probably bad call on my part to post something I found amusing.
> 
> ...





No problem - I was just making sure the correction was out there. There are too many gun owners who don't understand the realities of the legal situation, and they make the rest of us look bad.


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## svon89 (Nov 7, 2010)

Old friend of mine had someone blocked in his drive. He didn't approach him, he went straight into the house and dialed 911. He said I have someone in my driveway threatening my family and I. I am unlocking the gun safe as we speak and will defend my family. There were cops there in minutes. 

I have a couple of 4 in pvc pipes with a 1 in pipe with nails welded all through it. When I chain off the drive and lock it, I throw those out and throw some leaves over them. I can jump up and down on them, but if something drives over them it breaks the pvc and nails the tires. I really only use that when the chain is locked and I am away. If they want to cut the chain and drive down, then they will have some tire issues. 

Wish you were closer, I have a remote controlled gate opener that I would let you have. My drive is too wide for a gate without it looking a little too much like Fort Knox.


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## Sandhill Crane (Nov 7, 2010)

Update: Sheriff stopped by. I am going to have to take back every bad thing I've ever said about cops, except one, and that's a whole different story about a deputized pair of old ladies writing parking tickets. Anyway, they (two cars, they back each other up, even when talking to me last night) found the guy at home last night. Said he had not been anywhere but his truck was warm. Description was on; of him, the truck, and the dog. Said he was very nervious, and has prior B&E. Said my area is getting hit quite often recently for electronics; that theives google houses, get road front views/areal views too. A good deterent is driveway lights on sensors with a bell in the house as well (and dog house). Another he mentioned is the hunting cameras. Oh, had my woodsplitter welded at a family machine shop down the road and just now picked it up. He had a clients trailer stollen this week.

What if my wife or daughter were home sleeping? Or they came home instead of me and surprised someone? Or, if I had come home later and been ripped off? It is like I'm not mad about it, it is almost expected, it is so common. A kind of, "Well, I've been lucky up to now!" I don't want to let someone change me. I used to be mad and angry most of the time and have worked hard to go the other way. I think what many of you are saying is that respect is earned, and a thief gets what he earns. Some are saying just do what you can to protect yourself without crossing the line. The violent pray on the non-violent however. I would say stealing is certainly violence. What if I would have rammed that truck and shoved it half way through the garage door? Would I be in jail? There would be no question he was there. The sheriff last night was obviously wondering who I was, and checking my story out, probably wondering if I knew this guy and was just pissed at him.

My son is getting married Nov. 20th, and my sister from CA is going to come. She teaches handgun safty classes, and is in a HAM radio club that volenteers for bicycle races, runs and such, for emergency situations. It will be good to see her and talk at length. 

Today I'm ingraving my MI drivers licence number in everthing so it can be traced, and calling an electrician tomorrow about driveway lights.

My son and I crossed the Atlantic on friends 44' sailboat. They spent a lot of money on equipment they hoped they would never have to use. I guess secuity equipment is the same kind of thing.

Be safe... Crane


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## DSS (Nov 7, 2010)

Muffler Bearing said:


> You Do Know Why He Was There?
> 
> I would have walked up and shot the Mother ####er in the Head. Than stripped his truck for parts.





Muffler Bearing said:


> My wife calls 911 and tells the operator that there are 2 people in our work shop. Operator tells my wife to stay in the house and the sherriff will be there after he raps up a traffic accident. Wife asked for him to come NOW! Dispatch tells her he's busy.
> I call back 2 minutes later...tell dispatch I just shot both of them....so no hurry.
> Sherriff was there in 90 sec. Found out I didn't shoot them.
> 
> He said I thought you said you shot them? I said thought you said you where busy?






LMFAO......that would pretty much take care of the problem, yup.

Old MufflerBearing got an answer for every problem......hahahah


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## sawkiller (Nov 7, 2010)

Sandhill, You seem like a level headed ordinary guy who would be eligible for a handgun and permit to carry. My suggestion would be to do so ASAP get the training you need for it and the permit then protect yourself. Stay away from the NRA training and try to find some real life scenario based hands on training. You owe it to you and your family to protect yourself. If the unthinkable ever was to happen and you had to use it you would be glad you had the capability just like a fire extinguisher or first aid kit! Remember that the average response time of a 911 call is about 9 minutes while the response time of most handguns is 750 feet per second +. 

I would also recomend that if you can get your wife onboard for CCW than it is even more important that she have and know how to use a firearm. In the home there should be access that is quick enough to use and disabled enough to stop any prying little minds or fingers. My in home guns for instance never have a shell in the chamber I have a 3 year old that can't rack the slides and the rest of my family knows how and have practiced and know how to quickly and safely put one of the guns in service. In my home if I am home you could probably sneak around a bit outside before I shot you
but my wife is a different story I don't play the little knock on the door and try to scare the wife games cause she will have a gun before you know it. many times if a car pulls in at an odd hour She is actually a better shot than me and my 17 year old daughter is a crackshot I actually believe if she wanted to she could have a shot at a career as a proffesional hunter or shooter of some sort. 

People often think I carry because I am paranoid and I say that is rediculous I have a gun what the hel do I have to be paranoid about!


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## Cambium (Nov 7, 2010)

Some good posts here but without reading all of them yet I'll post myself....

I have a camera 15 feet high.(3 of them) Its hooked up to a software that I can view on computer, tv, or smart phone. Records digitally hours on end. Anything missing,... I rewind. 

See the camera? lol Its wireless...Just needs to be plugged in, thats all.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 7, 2010)

sawkiller said:


> Sandhill, You seem like a level headed ordinary guy who would be eligible for a handgun and permit to carry. My suggestion would be to do so ASAP get the training you need for it and the permit then protect yourself. Stay away from the NRA training and try to find some real life scenario based hands on training. You owe it to you and your family to protect yourself.



:agree2: 


NRA training is better than nothing. For a non-shooter, it's a good start. For a self-taught shooter, it can be a place to get some bad habits corrected.


It is NOT good defensive handgun training! It's BETTER THAN NOTHING. But it's NOT "good". It's just a lot better than NOTHING. Of course, some instructors are better than others.



Here's one good source. 

http://www.defense-training.com/

He travels around, so might come near you some time. He's one of the top trainers in the country, yet his classes aren't very expensive, compared to some place like Thunder Ranch.






sawkiller said:


> Remember that the average response time of a 911 call is about 9 minutes while the response time of most handguns is 750 feet per second +.





I like that line! 




sawkiller said:


> I would also recomend that if you can get your wife onboard for CCW than it is even more important that she have and know how to use a firearm



:agree2:



sawkiller said:


> People often think I carry because I am paranoid and I say that is rediculous I have a gun what the hel do I have to be paranoid about!




Yep. It's paranoid like wearing a seat belt or motorcycle helmet is paranoid.


A better word for it is "smart".


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## RVALUE (Nov 7, 2010)

Cambium said:


> Some good posts here but without reading all of them yet I'll post myself....
> 
> I have a camera 15 feet high.(3 of them) Its hooked up to a software that I can view on computer, tv, or smart phone. Records digitally hours on end. Anything missing,... I rewind.
> 
> See the camera? lol Its wireless...Just needs to be plugged in, thats all.



What are the specs, and costs?


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## RVALUE (Nov 7, 2010)

Originally Posted by sawkiller View Post
People often think I carry because I am paranoid and I say that is rediculous I have a gun what the hel do I have to be paranoid about!

Yep. It's paranoid like wearing a seat belt or motorcycle helmet is paranoid.


That's hilarious!


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## Sandhill Crane (Nov 7, 2010)

This post was probably a bit off topic but I appreciate everyones comments and suggestions.


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## kyrob (Nov 7, 2010)

Cambium said:


> Some good posts here but without reading all of them yet I'll post myself....
> 
> I have a camera 15 feet high.(3 of them) Its hooked up to a software that I can view on computer, tv, or smart phone. Records digitally hours on end. Anything missing,... I rewind.
> 
> See the camera? lol Its wireless...Just needs to be plugged in, thats all.





What is the brand name of the cameras and where can a person find them?

Thanks,
Rob


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh dear. I would have checked to see if he was OK. Then offered coffee. 

A local woman tried to keep some trespassers "captured" and was told to let them go or she'd be busted for kidnapping. 

They were hunters, which are the main trespassers around here, this time of year.

Also, make sure it is YOUR road that you spike. Another city dweller who decided to move into "the country" immediately posted a road, that had a county easement on it. He got stuck with a nice bill for replacing tires on a neighbor's truck. The funny part is, the neighbor stepped on one of the spikes and it stuck in his foot, his wooden foot. 

I do not like to live in an area where I have to have a fortress. If it comes to that, I'll move. 

So, what do you do to help your neighbors? The food banks will be collecting for the holidays. Warm coats are needed for kids. Some folks who can't cut their own, or pay for it, need some wood to keep warm with. Help some folks out if you can because work is hard to come by right now.


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## TreePointer (Nov 7, 2010)

slowp said:


> Oh dear. I would have checked to see if he was OK. Then offered coffee.
> *
> A local woman tried to keep some trespassers "captured" and was told to let them go or she'd be busted for kidnapping. *
> 
> They were hunters, which are the main trespassers around here, this time of year.



Good point, _slowp_. If anyone doubts this, do a search on *unlawful restraint* laws in your state. If you use a weapon, the crime often escalates to something very serious.


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## banshee67 (Nov 7, 2010)

i dont think i could have resisted kicking the side of his car/truck in as he tried to go around me like that.. if he has any balls then hell stop the truck and get stomped ... how is he gona explain being at a strangers house at almost 9pm..your story would win in a second. 
at the very least hed be left driving a truck/car with the side dented in, and evertytime he looked at that dent, hed remember


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## dingeryote (Nov 8, 2010)

Sandhill,

Google up X-10 systems and take a gander.

Wireless driveway and motion sensors with remote notification isn't a pain anymore.

Consider the "Refuse to be a victim" course for yourself and the gals.
It's common snese oriented and goes as far as less lethal confrontation with the emphasis on mindset, deterrence, and avoidance. 
If you need help finding an instructor, holler.

On the CCW side of things, if you choose to go that route, also gimme a shout. 

Keeping a blunderbuss around the house is a smart thing to do, but only if everyone in the house is on board and has the mindset and REAL world training to use the thing.

Allegan county is slipping back to where it was 6-8 years ago with deputys stretched thin. Heed that good Deputys advice.

I hear ya on the Citiots and Yuppies moving in and destroying things.
You're in for a treat when they start begging for city water and sewer to go with the Gas lines. The good thing is the Citys are all too broke to float the idea for a while.

Saugauck/Fennville/Pullman used to be tight knit country folks.
It's sad how things have "Improved".

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## DSS (Nov 8, 2010)

slowp said:


> *I do not like to live in an area where I have to have a fortress. If it comes to that, I'll move. *



The whole post was good Patty, but this is the part I really agree with.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 8, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> i dont think i could have resisted kicking the side of his car/truck in as he tried to go around me like that.. if he has any balls then hell stop the truck and get stomped ... how is he gona explain being at a strangers house at almost 9pm..your story would win in a second. r





Guess again. HE has committed no crime. None. Does it look fishy? Of course it does. But the fact remains, he has committed no crime, and an officer doesn't even have probable cause to arrest him.

When you kicked his door, YOU committed a crime.



If the cops get involved at this point, YOU go to jail, not HIM.


Is that right? No, but it's reality.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 8, 2010)

TreePointer said:


> Good point, _slowp_. If anyone doubts this, do a search on *unlawful restraint* laws in your state. * If you use a weapon, the crime often escalates to something very serious.*





Yep. Just pull back your coat to show him your gun, and you have committed the crime of "brandishing a weapon". That can be a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the mood of the prosecutor. Either way, you'll lose your permit and probably all your guns. If they push it as a felony, you'll lose them all FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Misdemeanor? The judge may bar you from touching a gun for a year or something like that.


Point a gun at someone? That's "assault with a deadly weapon". 

Yep. Just pointing it.


If you need to use a gun to protect yourself, you'd better be able to articulate a credible threat.

Unless your state recognizes "citizens arrest", you'd better not try to hold anyone. It's called "unlawful detainer" in some places, "kidnapping" in others, and it's always a *very* expensive hobby.


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## SwampCat (Nov 8, 2010)

*Justice?*

Funny- seems the crooks have more rights than the hardworking home owner- am I the only one having trouble with THIS LOGIC?


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## logbutcher (Nov 8, 2010)

Good analysis Mark of the options. Like saws, handgun training FOR DEFENSE is never optional: for legal and practice.

Even here, a mile in from a rural road, with no one living full time with the mile, we have "visitors". They always seem to drive pickups, are of the male species, peel off if they see you. When possible, I'll always stop them and ask politely what they'd like; no show of concealed, no threats. Always get the plate and report it. Most are fine , scouting out for deer or bear or turkey.

Ironically, our "from away" neighbors with the two vacation homes on the mile road, find that my sign " GAME CAMERA IN USE" silly, and could insult some 'people'. Ideology not based on experience.

Our law enforcement is in a town 45 minutes drive from here. The only real crime so far, so far, are home burglaries, usually expensive wood stoves from the vacation places.

Violent crime is low in Maine. Could it have to do with the fact that we have the highest percentage of Concealed Carry Permits in North America?:yoyo:


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## Curlycherry1 (Nov 8, 2010)

This time of year leave some lights on in your houses. Seriously, I drive home this time of year and I pass house after house after house that have ZERO lights on inside. Nothing screams "come break into me" more than a dark house. A radio left on is also a good thing.


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## ThePruner (Nov 8, 2010)

Muffler Bearing said:


> You Do Know Why He Was There?
> 
> I would have walked up and shot the Mother ####er in the Head. Than stripped his truck for parts.



That's a little aggressive don't you think? Or are you just trying to come off as a tough guy? I hope it's the latter. There's absolutely no proof, still, that he was up to anything bad. Shoot someone because they were in your driveway?


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## Dalmatian90 (Nov 8, 2010)

Motion activated camera / floodlight combo:
http://www.x10.com/cameras/vt38a_s_k_ps19.html

+ video receiver:
http://www.x10.com/cameras/vr36a_s.html

+ expensive software and PC TV board:
http://www.x10.com/cameras/va11a_s_mcpw_ps99.html

+ your PC and broadband internet

= 

You get an email to your Crackberry when your motion activated camera goes off.

If you're really paranoid and geeky, you make a deal with a neighbor so your old PC uses HIS wifi to send the email, just in case the thieves cut your cables first 

I have a 500' driveway, you could back a U-Haul up to my front door (or garage) and no one would notice except when pulling in and out of the driveway.

Folks who irk me the most are the Gypsies...show up nominally selling steaks or something out of a freezer strapped in the back of a pickup, when you know darn well they're actually just casing places. Working from home quite a bit over the last few years, it's amazing the oddballs who show up in the middle of the day.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 8, 2010)

SwampCat said:


> Funny- seems the crooks have more rights than the hardworking home owner- am I the only one having trouble with THIS LOGIC?




Who said anything about it being LOGIC? It's not logic and it's not justice.


Sadly, it's reality. No, I don't like it, and I don't support politicians who appoint the kind of judges that have brought us to this.


But it's still our present reality.


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## capecodtree (Nov 8, 2010)

*a different type of theft*

two years ago my office was broken into all that was taken was a random check from the check book. the thieves made the check out for v$2,500, signed it with a first name only and the boa cashed it!! I own the company, I'm on the account, the bank knows me and I could not do that without showing ID etc. The bank would not release survelance tapes to the police and replaced the money the next day. It had to be an inside job with one of the tellers. If I want to take out more than 1k I have to show id and talk to a manager. as usual p--- on the little guy. I'm still venting.


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## jasult (Nov 9, 2010)

capecodtree said:


> two years ago my office was broken into all that was taken was a random check from the check book. the thieves made the check out for v$2,500, signed it with a first name only and the boa cashed it!! I own the company, I'm on the account, the bank knows me and I could not do that without showing ID etc. The bank would not release survelance tapes to the police and replaced the money the next day. It had to be an inside job with one of the tellers. If I want to take out more than 1k I have to show id and talk to a manager. as usual p--- on the little guy. I'm still venting.



This is why a mattress is sometime your best friend. I have a friend also in construction that gets lots of cash customers and he just don't trust banks 100%.


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## bowtechmadman (Nov 9, 2010)

Another good idea is to alter your times coming and going. Thieves will pattern you and your family as to when someone isn't home. 
I had a vehicle stolen off our property and we had to tell the detective to review the video tapes of the meijers gas station (we knew they filled up there...wife had left her gas card in the vehicle). 
They caught him and he went to court for 52 felony charges...mostly theft/drug charges.


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## Tesen (Nov 9, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Who said anything about it being LOGIC? It's not logic and it's not justice.
> 
> 
> Sadly, it's reality. No, I don't like it, and I don't support politicians who appoint the kind of judges that have brought us to this.
> ...



And this kind of thing makes me very angry it also explains why my one buddy is the way he is. I am not advocating shooting someone to stop equipment theft, I will shoot anyone that points a weapon at me, and it will be self defense.

A couple years ago, some dude was playing with the doors of my wives minivan, it was early in the AM. The was a stranger, tresspassing and trying to B&E. I walked out with a Katana visible, mune resting against my back, so it was not pointing at him. Enough moonlight to make it reflect, so obvious I had a blade, I then used my remote keylock and locked the van which makes it "honk" for a second and all lights flash.

The guy jumped out of his underwear when that happened, and I said to him "Now that I have your attention, any reason you are trying to rip me off?" He took off running. Never came back (good).

Based on what you've said, if a cop car pulled in saw me brandishing a weapon, I could be the one that was charged? Ohio has a form of Castle Doctrine, are you telling me that is void when YOU have a weapon?

Tes


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## SkyP (Nov 9, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Guess again. HE has committed no crime. None. Does it look fishy? Of course it does. But the fact remains, he has committed no crime, and an officer doesn't even have probable cause to arrest him.



See thats why I have "no trespassing" signs on my property. In the OP's case if he'd have had the signs then the "visitor" did in fact commit a crime. Without the signs you got nothin'
I don't like the signs marring the beauty of my land but in today's climate it is necessary unfortunately.


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## sawkiller (Nov 9, 2010)

I am not sure about the brandishing a pistol law around here? We were taught in our concealed carry class to first brandish the weapon if the situation might not yet warrant deadly force or action. This was for 2 reasons number 1 if the gun is in your hand it is quickly accesible if needed and Number 2 let the perp know you are serious and will not be an easy victim!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 9, 2010)

sawkiller said:


> We were taught in our concealed carry class to first brandish the weapon if the situation might not yet warrant deadly force or action. !





You were taught by an idiot wannabe. Time to look up a GOOD instructor!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 9, 2010)

SkyP said:


> See thats why I have "no trespassing" signs on my property. In the OP's case if he'd have had the signs then the "visitor" did in fact commit a crime. Without the signs you got nothin'
> I don't like the signs marring the beauty of my land but in today's climate it is necessary unfortunately.





Bingo.


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## Muffler Bearing (Nov 9, 2010)

ThePruner said:


> That's a little aggressive don't you think? Or are you just trying to come off as a tough guy? I hope it's the latter. There's absolutely no proof, still, that he was up to anything bad. Shoot someone because they were in your driveway?



Little thing I thearn at the school off hard knocks...You don't have to be bad..

It's Just The Bad Don't #### With Me.

It's Called Top Of The Food Chain.

!


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## sawkiller (Nov 9, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> You were taught by an idiot wannabe. Time to look up a GOOD instructor!



The man was far from an idiot and highly regarded in his field. He is also an ex police officer and has taught more people in and around the west side of cincinnati than any other instructor I know. I will be glad to give you his contact info if needed!

I think our definition of brandish may be the disagreement! I say brandish and really mean having the firearm at a low ready.

If you pull up in your driveway and there is 3 rough looking folks sitting on the porch and a minivan sitting in the drive obviously loaded with stuff that may very well be yours what do you do? Option 1 call the cops and run like hell! That is a viable option and may be the most play it safe option but around here the cops are a minimum of 10 minutes out. Option 2 pull out your firearm and start shooting! Not a smart decision yet, you don't know there intent, you may very well kill the kirby salesman waiting on you to get home! Option 3 Remove your firearm from concealment and aproach the men from a distance with the gun at a low ready keeping the fire arm concealed behind you but handy if needed. This would probably be my option I have no intent to use my firearm but if needed I will and when needed I want it at hand if I have the choice! I would first look in the van to see if it was my stuff and then cautiously approach and ask if they needed help with something if they were selling vacs I would get their plate# while they were leaving and if they were a threat I would do what was necessary to defend myself! While I am not allowed to defend my property with a firearm I can defend myself against the thiefs!

Next scenario: Its on of those dark nights no moon what so ever and you have found the only ATM in the middle of this city and unfortunately its a walkup with a blown street light of course. You insert your card and the money comes out and just as the money comes out someone arms wrap around you from behind! You struggle and push them back a few feet and begin backing up as you pull your firearm from concealment! Option 1: Shoot him and figure it all out later! Option 2: Brandish firearm at a low ready be aware of surroundings and try to put distance between you and call 911! Option 3: Start screaming and run like hell.

If you said option 1 congrats you just killed an autistic gentleman who was unaware that he should not give everyone a hug. He was a very likable guy and the whole neighborhood is grieving as he always had a smile on his face and a hug for everyone! If you said option 2 you probably didn't fire a shot and had to give the man a hug when you realized he was no threat and help him find his way home! If you said option 3 well I guess you want to take the chance of being shot in the back or being attacked from behind and that is your choice!

Unfortunately there is alot of gray area in when to use a firearm and not any situation will be textbook. Most people who truly intend to harm you are cowards deep down and will use surprise to attack you will you be ready!!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 9, 2010)

sawkiller said:


> I think our definition of brandish may be the disagreement! I say brandish and really mean having the firearm at a low ready.





Yep. That's the problem. That is NOT what the word "brandish" means! 


You'd be hard pressed to find a jurisdiction in which brandishing a firearm is NOT a crime.


If your guy is that well qualified, I very much doubt he used the word "brandish" to describe holding a gun at low ready!


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## RVALUE (Nov 9, 2010)

Don't bash me,

But What does brandish mean to you, and where (when) is the crime committed?


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## sawkiller (Nov 9, 2010)

I specifically remember him using the term and saying that you are basicly showing the bad guy you have a gun without pointing or threatening! Then describing it as a low ready! Maybe a different meaning in Cinci. kinda of like chili is not real chili in Cinci!


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## RVALUE (Nov 9, 2010)

Is letting someone know you have a gun, brandishing and also a crime?

Or do you have to point it at them?

I vaguely remember from the Police academy that waving a gun around playfully was brandishing ALSO. 

I'm not sure what constitutes a crime in letting someone know you have a gun, in normal states that is.


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## sawkiller (Nov 9, 2010)

RVALUE said:


> Is letting someone know you have a gun, brandishing and also a crime?
> 
> Or do you have to point it at them?
> 
> ...



I will be honest I don't know the legal definition! I am also pretty sure that it changes from state to state.

I am also sure that what is illegal with a firearm varies according to a few things. Number 1 Who you are (normal guy or trouble maker) Number 2 where you are (home or in the middle of wal-mart) Number 3 state you are in Number 4 The responding officers attitude towards a normal citizen with a firearm Number 5 The provocation to pull out the firearm.


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## RVALUE (Nov 9, 2010)

sawkiller said:


> I will be honest I don't know the legal definition! I am also pretty sure that it changes from state to state.
> 
> I am also sure that what is illegal with a firearm varies according to a few things. Number 1 Who you are (normal guy or trouble maker) Number 2 where you are (home or in the middle of wal-mart) Number 3 state you are in Number 4 The responding officers attitude towards a normal citizen with a firearm Number 5 The provocation to pull out the firearm.



Great points. The above was at home and someone called crime.

Most likely not.


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## dingeryote (Nov 9, 2010)

Gents,

As soon as the law gets involved, the charge of "Brandishing" will be up to the prosecutor, and it will be considered.

The cop that shows up to take the other guys statement and yours, will not be the one deciding.

If you expose your sidearm or it is seen, and somebody gets a twist in thier pantys over it, intended or not, it could be "Brandishing".

Holding a shotgun while grouse hunting is not brandishing.
Get into a heated argument while holding your shotgun during a grouse hunt, could very well be "Brandishing".

Keep the sidearm concealed untill you figure it needs to be used.
If you need a weapon to scare some idiot off, back off and let the cops deal with it, otherwise you are potentially escalating and armed confrontation and putting the liability on yourself if things go ugly. 

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## sawkiller (Nov 9, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> Gents,
> 
> As soon as the law gets involved, the charge of "Brandishing" will be up to the prosecutor, and it will be considered.
> 
> ...




I think we are on the same page and still yet not seeing each others point. I agree that the firearm should stay concealed until needed but there are times where the mere sight of a firearm can de escalate the attackers plan. You don't want to do it to settle an argument or to win a barfight. Only in a true I thought me or my families life was in danger situation would I pull mine out. 
Now on my own property is a different issue alltogether. I can carry a gun in my hand at a low ready around my property any time I want to. Everytime I walk to the house or back to the truck there is a firearm in my hand and not because I am scared, because I don't like to leave it in the truck. Now if I go down to the highway and start pointing and waving it at people that will get me in trouble. But if I answer the door when a stranger knocks with a gun at a low ready in my hand and they see the firearm through the glass window on my door I haven't broken any laws and if I have then I have done it several times. If I pull in as the OP did and there is a stranger in my drive the first thing I personally would do is call the sherriff and block them in if no one was home! If my wife and kids are home I will do what I have to!


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## BPS. LLC (Nov 9, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> By nature most thieves are cowards, and once you make eye contact and create a situation of potential conflict, they will go away and find easier pickin's.



Very True. Always remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. That being said, I feel as though many security features give us a false sense of security. If someone wants to get in your house, they can and will. Check out the below video on Youtube about bump keys. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwTVBWCijEQ

Not every state provides protection from criminal and civil liability if you were to shoot someone breaking into your home. Articulating that you are in fear of your life is essential, not just the mere fact that someone entered your home. This element is required in some states and can prevent civil liability in others. The saying, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" comes into play here.

Being able defend yourself is key. Don't be a victim in your own home. I think securing your valuables in a gun safe is one of the best ways. They can be bolted down, are extremely heavy and difficult to access. As a bonus, good ones are fireproof to varying degrees and temperatures. Depending on the police response time, if an alarm went off, it would be difficult to either breach or remove the safe before the police arrived. 

I have a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun with a pistol grip and short barrel. It is just over legal length (I don't want to get arrested should I have to use it.) The tube is loaded 2 3/4" buckshot rounds, with the dowel rod removed. It sits beside my bed every night. Racking the shotgun in itself is generally a good attention getter. Everyone knows that sound, and if they're somewhere they're not supposed to be, fight or flight is going to kick in. Chances are they will flee, unless they are armed. 

Generally, burglars like to avoid conflict and are stealthy. Home invasions generally occur over drugs. A street robbery is the most unpredictable situation. These people are desperate and unpredictable. I carry a Glock 27, (.40 caliber) on my ankle when wearing long pants. Not easily accessible, but highly concealable. I have been frisked when entering events and 9 out of 10 times, it is missed! (I am a retired police detective)

Most of you, like me, live on larger parcels of land, often concealed from view. This is a double edge sword for obvious reasons. Always lock your doors to keep the "honest thieves" out. The biggest key is avoiding strangers in/around your house. For examply, my neighbors house was burglarized by someone who stopped at their garage sale the week prior. He had asked about things for sale in the garage. When he found out they weren't for sale, he returned and got the five finger discount. Many of these crimes are committed by associates of shady service people (cable, phone, electric, etc.) If you think about it, they get access to your house and can essentially shop around. Often, this information is relayed to an associate who commits the crime. I always make sure I am home when these people are in my house. I follow them around, and I tell them why I am following them. 

Just throwing out some ideas. I have never been the victim of a crime, and hopefully I never am. Like someone said previously, not only are you losing your stuff, it effects you mentally. Hopefully, this helps.


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## dingeryote (Nov 10, 2010)

sawkiller said:


> I think we are on the same page and still yet not seeing each others point. I agree that the firearm should stay concealed until needed but there are times where the mere sight of a firearm can de escalate the attackers plan. You don't want to do it to settle an argument or to win a barfight. Only in a true I thought me or my families life was in danger situation would I pull mine out.
> Now on my own property is a different issue alltogether. I can carry a gun in my hand at a low ready around my property any time I want to. Everytime I walk to the house or back to the truck there is a firearm in my hand and not because I am scared, because I don't like to leave it in the truck. Now if I go down to the highway and start pointing and waving it at people that will get me in trouble. But if I answer the door when a stranger knocks with a gun at a low ready in my hand and they see the firearm through the glass window on my door I haven't broken any laws and if I have then I have done it several times. If I pull in as the OP did and there is a stranger in my drive the first thing I personally would do is call the sherriff and block them in if no one was home! If my wife and kids are home I will do what I have to!




Sawkiller,

Same page it is. However though, the mere sight of a firearm in ones hands and the statement of that individual concerning "feeling threatened" wether intended or not, or in your home or not, may constitute brandishing if the prosecutor deems it worth the time, or at least added to other charges to plea against should things go sideways.

Open Carry in a holster on your own property ain't a bad idea, as any weapon in the hands for the purpose of intimidation IS exactly brandishing by any definition. Remember the term "Reasonable" as it applies to the purpose of having a weapon in the hands, as well as it's use. Reasonable to you and I ain't exactly the same as what it is to some citiot anti-gun liberal on the payroll of your local court.

Best strategy would be to set up an appointment with the local prosecutors office and talk with them concerning the matter and the use of deadly force in general.
Make sure to record names, day, date, time when you do.
It may come in handy later.

Barring that, set an appointment with a GOOD local criminal defense lawyer and discuss it with them, and make sure to keep the receipt for the consultation and put thier card in your wallet. It's cheap insurance.

All it takes is one nervous nellie Jehovas witness making exaggerated statements out of fear, and you'll be at least facing some pointed questions from the law, and possibly spending some serious coin for doing nothing wrong. Have seen it happen here.

Even have had family face the CCW review board for the matter for scaring off scrap thieves in thier PJ's and no place else but the hand to carry a sidearm in the wee hours. This isn't a liberal county by any means either.

They ain't my rules or ideas.
I think everybody should meet uninvited strangers with a smile and a good word, and a plan to eliminate them as a threat quickly if needed.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## GoRving (Nov 10, 2010)

Nowadays, we have to assume someone is guilty or up to something until they can prove otherwise. Especially if they're on your property for no obvious reason.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 10, 2010)

sawkiller said:


> I specifically remember him using the term and saying that you are basicly showing the bad guy you have a gun without pointing or threatening! Then describing it as a low ready! Maybe a different meaning in Cinci. kinda of like chili is not real chili in Cinci!







> Definition of BRANDISH
> transitive verb
> 1
> : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
> ...




Here's Virginia's code:



> § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
> 
> A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.




To bring it home for you, I can't find that Indiana specifically uses the word "brandish" in their statutes. What I did find is this:


http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch4.html



> IC 35-47-4-3
> Pointing firearm at another person
> Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
> (1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
> ...





While the precise definition varies from one jurisdiction to another, the general understanding of the word us universal.

Your instructor was VERY sloppy, at BEST, to use that word to describe holding a gun at low ready. If you take him at his word, and make that part of your vocabulary, you may wind up in legal hot water because you used that word to describe (to an officer) what you did in an encounter with a bad guy. Words count, particularly where lawyers are involved.


If that instructor is really using that word (and you didn't just misunderstand), then I stand by my statement. He's an idiot, and you should never take a class from him again.

Frankly, I suspect he merely pointed out that holding a gun at low ready COULD be considered brandishing (which is true). That's NOT the same thing as recommending that you CALL it brandishing!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 10, 2010)

BPS said:


> ... Home invasions generally occur over drugs.



Sadly, that's changing. I'm seeing more and more reports of home invasion robberies of ordinary folks.



But good post.


Well, maybe one quibble. Are you sure you want to rely on a pistol-gripped shotgun? Have you ever tried to actually hit anything with one of those? 


I remember my instructor in junior police academy (high school) saying that he had seen many confrontations just melt away when a 12 gauge slide was racked.

*"Come in and get me!" *

*CLACK-CLACK*


"Uh, I'm coming out! Don't shoot!"


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## sawkiller (Nov 10, 2010)

Here is the link www.woodhilltraining.com


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## sawkiller (Nov 10, 2010)

We were also taught that the shotgun being a home defense gun is better than nothing but far from the best gun to use. If I have to "clear" my home in the middle of the night to get to my daughters bedroom on the other end of the house it is much easier to do that with a pistol and once again at a low ready. Preferably a 1 handed low ready so when I clear the corners if attacked I have 1 hand to keep them from my weapon and 1 to fire with if necessary. No I do not advocate fireing 1 handed except in the most urgent and extreme of situations such as above.


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## Taxmantoo (Nov 10, 2010)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Said he had not been anywhere but his truck was warm.



If the Feral Bureau of Instigations takes a dislike to a guy, they're pretty quick to slap a $5,000 tracker under his car. Too bad most sheriffs can get federal aid for armored personnel carriers but not simple stuff like that. Sounds like your friend in the black pickup needs one of those under his truck. They just might solve a long string of burglaries if they could prove his truck spent five minutes at a break in site during the break in.


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## Taxmantoo (Nov 10, 2010)

RVALUE said:


> Is letting someone know you have a gun, brandishing and also a crime?
> 
> Or do you have to point it at them?



Brandishing is display, which should, IMO, involve intent on some level, but people have been harassed for 'brandishing' when they had a visible holstered sidearm. 

Assault is pointing. No vagueness to that definition as far as I know.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 10, 2010)

taxmantoo said:


> Brandishing is display, which should, IMO, involve intent on some level, but people have been harassed for 'brandishing' when they had a visible holstered sidearm.




Yes, the charge is often used as a tool, either by good cops to "pile on" charges for a genuine BG, or by anti-gun cops to harass law abiding gun owners.


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## BPS. LLC (Nov 10, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Sadly, that's changing. I'm seeing more and more reports of home invasion robberies of ordinary folks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fortunately, in my area the "victims" of home invasions are almost always hardened criminals themselves. Its hard to miss anything with a 2 3/4 buckshot round with a short barrel. There's 9 .32 caliber pellets that are going to have the spread of an FBI CQB target at 7 yards. FBI studies have shown the majority of incidents are within 21 feet.


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## 1harlowr (Nov 10, 2010)

BPS said:


> Fortunately, in my area the "victims" of home invasions are almost always hardened criminals themselves. Its hard to miss anything with a 2 3/4 buckshot round with a short barrel. There's 9 .32 caliber pellets that are going to have the spread of an FBI CQB target at 7 yards. FBI studies have shown the majority of incidents are within 21 feet.



Also with 00 you have to know where all 9 projectiles are going instead of one .40 cal. projectile. 8 out of 9 .32 cal. bullet in your target is great....except when that 9th one goes thru your kid's bedroom wall. 

Short barrel + 00 = wide pattern at 20 feet jmho


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## Dalmatian90 (Nov 11, 2010)

> Option 3 Remove your firearm from concealment and aproach the men from a distance with the gun at a low ready keeping the fire arm concealed behind you but handy if needed.





> I agree that the firearm should stay concealed until needed but there are times where the mere sight of a firearm can de escalate the attackers plan.



Those are two very different concepts, at least as I understand the law in my part of the country.

The second scenario is perfectly justifiable -- in fear of your life, you showed an attacker a weapon.

The first scenario will get you before a judge...and not as a witness. There was no threat -- the suspicious persons were "at a distance" and you chose to move towards them and confront them with a gun in your hand. You probably increased the level of criminal culpability on your part by deliberately choosing to conceal that you had a weapon in your hand. 

States do vary on the "duty to retreat" from a threat; but very few if any show legal sympathy for initiating an armed confrontation.


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## sawkiller (Nov 11, 2010)

Dalmatian90 said:


> Those are two very different concepts, at least as I understand the law in my part of the country.
> 
> The second scenario is perfectly justifiable -- in fear of your life, you showed an attacker a weapon.
> 
> ...




I feel there is a difference between an armed confrontation initiated at the local grocery and approaching my own porch with caution because there is a group of strangers on it. I personally feel that a person should not have to retreat on their own property but these laws do vary by state and the above is my opinion only. However if attacked while entering my home I do have the right to defend myself.


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## sawkiller (Nov 11, 2010)

HOUSE ENROLLED ACT No. 1028 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


AN ACT to amend the Indiana Code concerning firearms and self-defense. 




Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Indiana:




SECTION 1. IC 35-41-3-2 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2006]: Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; only and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, or curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, or curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the 
force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is not justified in using deadly force; unless and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a).







The above is the Indiana code. It confirms that I do not have a duty to retreat on my own property however I can not just use deadly force without a reason! EVERY STATE LAW IS DIFFERENT SO PLEASE CHECK YOUR OWN!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 11, 2010)

1harlowr said:


> Also with 00 you have to know where all 9 projectiles are going instead of one .40 cal. projectile. 8 out of 9 .32 cal. bullet in your target is great....except when that 9th one goes thru your kid's bedroom wall. Short barrel + 00 = wide pattern at 20 feet jmho




Nope. Watch these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57GvXtRnagc&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HlNiUpTkLU&feature=related


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## KMB (Nov 11, 2010)

I know this thread will go on for a while. So far fellas, great info on knowing the law and thinking clearly and acting properly when it comes to firearms and dealing with strangers.

Kevin


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## 1harlowr (Nov 11, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Nope. Watch these:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57GvXtRnagc&feature=related
> 
> ...



Those are long barrels with tight chokes, guy in video said so himself about choke. Most home defense shotguns being sold are much shorter barrels. Cut 8-10" off those you'd see a lot of change in pattern. Have a good day


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 11, 2010)

1harlowr said:


> Those are long barrels with tight chokes, guy in video said so himself about choke. Most home defense shotguns being sold are much shorter barrels. Cut 8-10" off those you'd see a lot of change in pattern. Have a good day






Chokes don't make a *big *difference. 
Cut 8-10" off and you are looking at hard time in Pen Fed. He was using a 20" barrel.


Also, at 6-10 feet (typical inside a house) you are basically talking about a solid projectile. A choke is going to make NO measurable difference.


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## Taxmantoo (Nov 11, 2010)

1harlowr said:


> Those are long barrels with tight chokes, guy in video said so himself about choke. Most home defense shotguns being sold are much shorter barrels. Cut 8-10" off those you'd see a lot of change in pattern. Have a good day



I got 18.5" cylinder bore barrels on a clearance sale, put them on a couple of 12ga pumps for indoor use. At 10', pattern with OO buck is about the size of a softball. IIRC, it was more like 30" at 20-25'. Shooting anything with family members downrange behind a couple pieces of sheetrock strikes me as rather stupid anyway.


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## RTK (Nov 11, 2010)

As mentioned before, No matter what choke, what shot size or barrel length at 7 feet you are going to have a pattern not much bigger than the size of the hole it came out of, and whether 00 or 6 shot it will basically go threw and do the same damage.......................


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## lngbeard (Nov 11, 2010)

I would suggest reading "In the gravest extreme" by Massad F. Ayoob. Former special forces, LEO and trainer of LEO. One of the worlds most knowledgeable arms experts. This book will open your eyes to the reality of when lethal force is justified and the legal ramification of said use. It is a extremely fine line when lethal force is acceptable. In all other cases, you will be the one mired in the legal system and it will cost you thousands to get yourself out of it. BTW, I have concealed carry and have home defense shot gun by the bed. Since reading the book my thought about the use of my weapons has been adjusted severely.


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## RTK (Nov 11, 2010)

lngbeard said:


> I would suggest reading "In the gravest extreme" by Massad F. Ayoob. Former special forces, LEO and trainer of LEO. One of the worlds most knowledgeable arms experts. This book will open your eyes to the reality of when lethal force is justified and the legal ramification of said use. It is a extremely fine line when lethal force is acceptable. In all other cases, you will be the one mired in the legal system and it will cost you thousands to get yourself out of it. BTW, I have concealed carry and have home defense shot gun by the bed. Since reading the book my thought about the use of my weapons has been adjusted severely.



Ayoob does have some good books to read. 
I would imagine using lethal force and getting tangled in the web of legalities varies greatly in the location. Outside of the house is one thing, inside is another...............or at least according to lawyers I know.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 11, 2010)

Ayoob is good reading. Nobody should consider carrying without getting that level of advice. What you heard down at the gun shop or on some Internet forum is not quite good enough.



Now, if you want some FREEBIE good reading of that caliber, check this out:


http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html


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## dingeryote (Nov 11, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Ayoob is good reading. Nobody should consider carrying without getting that level of advice. What you heard down at the gun shop or on some Internet forum is not quite good enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



John is one of the few no BS, open minded, meat and taters, instructors out there.

If anyone gets the chance to train with him, or his wife Vicky, I highly suggest they jump on it. 

Lotsa good tools to add to the toolbox mentally, get handed out in Johns classes.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Sandhill Crane (Nov 12, 2010)

Wow! This post is not about firewood really, but is a concern for all of us, and obviously stirred the pot a bit with really good stuff to think about. Something I did do, I felt I needed to do something, and was uncertain if it was a good idea or bad. I painted "attempted B & E 8:15pm 11/6" on an 8' 2 x 12 screwed to a saw horse at the end of the drive. We live on a deadend road with maybe 100-150 homes on various deadens and culvesacs. I asked my son what he thought. He said you might actually get a pissed off neighbor with a home for sale. Never thought of that, but that's why I asked. People have been stopping on the road, blowing by and backing up, one neighbor stopped when he saw me doing wood. Another woman we know was jogging and talked with Margaret. Said thank you, the whole neighborhood is talking. She thought it was really good. Although I may be in trouble with one guy who does not live on our road. He had a clients trailer stollen from the shop, also where he lives, last week and did not say anything to his wife because, it seems, he didn't want to worry her. Well, she teaches piano to kids around here and the women got talking about what's new. Anyway, I am leaving the sign out through the weekend for the cottage people. Note: The tiny coffee shop in Douglas was broke into and robbed this past week. Thank you all for posting... On a positive note, the weather is incredible and I love doing wood. Trying out my new Mingo today, per others suggestions on this site to get one. Put an 18" wheel in it and ran it on a 2 x 4 last night. I think I'm going to like it a lot. Marking paint; sign making; everyone in business need advertising on their truck...


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## Steve_in_SEMich (Nov 12, 2010)

I thought the act of "brandishing" is generally when on public or "not your" properties. On your own property, where it's legal to own the firearm, you don't have to hide it. If I find a vehicle in the driveway, day or night, and my "spidey-senses" start to tingle, my Sig P220 is out and ready to protect me & mine. Sometimes it is visible to the unknown visitor, sometimes it isn't. Some of my wife's friends have shared their ignorant opinions about me being overly paranoid, but she's quick to explain how much better she sleeps at night knowing the likely-hood of being a statistic is much lower due to being ready and willing. Hope it never happens, but staying vigilant is something that comes easier the more you practice it.

Of course, nothing stopped someone(s) from stealing 2 aluminum ladders from behind the shop 2 weeks ago. Only way to see the ladders would have been to be walking on our property behind the shop to even know they were there. How much would it cost to install motion sensors/lights on 2.5 acres? I don't think I'm the only one here that REALLY gets pi$$ed off when someone takes stuff that ain't theirs.......


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## hammercore (Nov 12, 2010)

teatersroad said:


> I play the banjo and drape dead cats over my mailbox.
> A gate and a dog, should help with the too convenient drive by.



Thats a good idea, you could just become the creapy guy on the block with the scary house and not have to worry. Everyone elses home will look alot more inviting than yours


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 12, 2010)

Steve_in_SEMich said:


> I thought the act of "brandishing" is generally when on public or "not your" properties. .





Nope. You can brandish anywhere.




Steve_in_SEMich said:


> On your own property, where it's legal to own the firearm, you don't have to hide it. .





Brandishing is more than just NOT hiding it. The bad news is, it's one of those things that is open to interpretation, which means, a lot depends on the officers on scene and the local police chief/sheriff and the prosecutor. these guys set the tone, and the cop on site makes the call to arrest or not. 

He does so based on his own biases (anti-gun or pro-gun), his boss's biases, your attitude, and, oh yeah, the circumstances of the incident.

In a liberal environment, jsut holding a gun pointed nowhere but at the ground - your OWN ground - get you arrested for felony brandishing.


Other places, you might rack a round in a chamber and point it at somebody's face and the only thing that would happen is the deputy says, '"Don't do that again, Bob."


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## RTK (Nov 12, 2010)

What about brandishing a weapon when inside of your residence?? Same, Different??


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## sawkiller (Nov 12, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Nope. You can brandish anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree its definately one of those gray area thing open for the officers interpetation! And the chief/sherriff will most likely set the tone in the area! Thankfully we have a conservative sherriff that believes strongly in concealed carry and a persons property rights!


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## firewood guy (Nov 13, 2010)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I'm not going to sleep well. Gone all day and came home after dark, 8:15, 8:20 pm. or so. 350' driveway and dark, but there was a pickup in front of the garage and the brake lights came on as he backed and turned 90 degrees, then the headlights came on. I blocked him in and asked the stranger what he was doing, in the dark, in my driveway. Said he saw a for sale sign out front! (in the dark!) There is one, a quarter mile away, on the corner, for several places down the road. Asked him for his drivers license and he got ####ty. He backed up and got around my car but I got his plate and called the sheriffs dept. When the sheriff came he had already run the plate. Hmmm. Said they would look him up and have a little chat...
> 
> So what do you guys do to protect yourselves? With most of the leaves down my splitter and conveyor are more noticeble from the road. And if you read between the lines, there are chain saws close by. I had already pulled the tonge out of the conveyor, but the engine is easily accessable. Pulled the hitch coupler from the tonge of the splitter a month ago, but same with the Honda engine, accessable. Four bolts and the love joy coupling slips apart. Pull the wheels I suppose, and trade our Golden for a Doberman. The dog was with me so it would not have mattered.
> 
> It is a wake-up call anyway, and a bad economy.... So what do you guys do?



It is getting bad. Had a very disturbing experience up on the mountain ( am under contract with the USDF for fuelwood production) a truck w/ a bunch of low-lifes came up and said "we are looking for oak" when they just drove by a nice pile on a fire road. My point.... I have my S&W 40 in my chaps pocket!! Cocked, Locked, ready to ROCK!! Don't let the criminals steal youre peace. God bless all..


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## DangerTree (Nov 13, 2010)

109 postings almost all American and guns, dogs and rocking chairs are the best that can be done.

What about a good ol' fashion ars whoopin' up here in Canada they won't let us kill the bastards we gotta let the LAW deal with em' WELL I SAY HELL NO lets kick some thievin' ASS!!!


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## logbutcher (Nov 13, 2010)

Most interesting practical thread in a long time...for most with property, homes, exposure to crime.

Marc and others brought up training for emergency actions. A firearm is no help IF you're not practiced and trained to react immediately in the correct way. Sometimes NOT reacting at all IF you're not in danger is best. Trained and prepared to react unemotionally and fast is operative here. For most of you not having gone through mil combat training or defense programs for armed and unarmed civilians, just thinking about what to do is dangerous. For most in the military, most training is only for a specific non combat specialty MOS such as mechanics, clerical, or medical, not combat. Support in the military is the about 11 out of 12 NOT in actual combat or trained.

A choice is made how you'll react to a situation: fight, flight, or submit; there are NO other choices armed or unarmed. While we choose not to carry, the mental prep for what to do in a situation of confrontation will always be there.
It is all I have by choice. In any serious confrontation you only have seconds to do something; in all mil and civilian training it is those initial moments for action that you have prepared for long ago. Home, street, parking lot, on the road, in a store . 

The only real analogy for me is climbing: what do you do when sh__ happens ? Protection fails, your belayer faints, lines break. Have you practiced that emergency with what you carry on the rock or ice ? Are you mentally prepped for taking charge of your life. No exaggeration. Things happen fast, your brain needs to do the same.

No macho in these situations.

JMNSHO


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## DangerTree (Nov 13, 2010)

Oh cummon wheres your sense of humor. If thieves did the same training as a marine then the only logical answer is insurance. Locks and lights only stop the nice people, crooks will always find a way. But every now and then WAMMO you catch one right in the kisser.


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