# Danger Danger... advice sought.



## northmanlogging (May 24, 2013)

Right anyways... On the next job, which lucky me is next door to where I'm at now... there is a large doug fir, thats been hit by lightning in the last few years, did some interesting damage, the top is still green but it has this awesome spiral fracture most of the way down its stem, with bits hanging out to one side. Have another almost as big dougy to hide behind right next to it, and clear ground all around it, except that every where is down, literally the tallest tree around and at the top of the hill...

So thoughts?


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## RandyMac (May 25, 2013)

Did you know that it is steam that makes those splits?


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## slowp (May 25, 2013)

Do I see a conk in the first picture? In the tree on the far right? :msp_ohmy:
I don't have my timber cruising glasses on.


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## bitzer (May 25, 2013)

They both going or just the ugly one?


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## RandyMac (May 25, 2013)

Cut 'em all, let the loader sort 'em out


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## northmanlogging (May 25, 2013)

Randy no I did not... was curios as to why steam does make sense.

SlowP, yes it is ded fir snag,

And Bitzer, I don't know, land owner was supposed to come out and walk through with me 2 weeks ago... I am hoping that all the big firs here get to go, and the spruce and ceder. closest thing to old growth I'll get to play with anytime soon, them two firs are in the neighborhood of 4' dbh


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## bitzer (May 25, 2013)

Well you may be able to knock the hazard tree out with another one. Providing you've got it cut up well enough first.


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## Gologit (May 25, 2013)

If you're taking out more than the lightning tree you could cripple it up and drive it with another tree.

If you're taking just the one fall it the regular way but stay on your toes. Watch your chips...big color changes, punk dust, that sort of thing. Sounding the tree might not be a bad idea either.

More pictures, especially the first third of the tree from the ground, would help.


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## slowp (May 25, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> Cut 'em all, let the loader sort 'em out



You forgot the "run like hell" after the cut 'em all. But I'm not a faller.


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## RandyMac (May 25, 2013)

Well, if you got hit with one of those slabs, you won't need the ER.


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## northmanlogging (May 25, 2013)

Gologit said:


> If you're taking out more than the lightning tree you could cripple it up and drive it with another tree.
> 
> If you're taking just the one fall it the regular way but stay on your toes. Watch your chips...big color changes, punk dust, that sort of thing. Sounding the tree might not be a bad idea either.
> 
> More pictures, especially the first third of the tree from the ground, would help.



bottom 20'? appears to be solid... and the only thing big enough to push it is next door and leaning the wrong way. The big trees here are spaced out quite a ways, mixed in with a whole bunch of pecker poles, I could probably wedge the solid one over, but without a tree jack...


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## bitzer (May 25, 2013)

You'd be surprised what you can knock over with what as long as everything is cut up right. Obviously I've got nothing in tall timber country though.


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## bustedup (May 25, 2013)

You'll prob have done this but watch there no limb lock as well that sod may fold on ya


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## paccity (May 25, 2013)

your heart will jump if and when the tension on it releases with a bang. had one of the big stinkers in the park do that while making my face. loud as heck. it had a strike spiral in it also.


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## roberte (May 25, 2013)

What will your strip layout be and do those big one lay the way you want? How will they land when they get there?


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## roberte (May 25, 2013)

Hey Northman,
Western Washington covers a lot of ground, but I would love to see those go over. Interested observer.


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## northmanlogging (May 25, 2013)

the split tree, is the one and only one leaning south, everything else is heading north or east, have an access for the skidder along the ridge, so I'm going to try laying every thing that way. once the hill drops off its too steep for the skidder (Hel its yarder ground really...) so the fun part is going to be staying on top of the little ridge while pulling in some monster turns for a little JD. The hill isn't real tall so worse case I can go in from the bottom, I just have to worm my way in between leave trees and soft ground.


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## jrcat (May 25, 2013)

do you need this?


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## northmanlogging (May 25, 2013)

Took a few more pics with a better camera today, didn't notice before but it is split all the way into the dirt. Limb lock is minimal. Kinda stood back a bit to give a better idea on the layout. There is the obligatory tin hat to give an idea as to scale as well.


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## bustedup (May 25, 2013)

I don't envy ya there.

I got nothing else .......only thing I could think of is if ya could climb a close by one and rig it up and take the top outta the damaged one........but I guess really that may be a bit hairy.


I wish ya the best .....and be careful bro


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## hammerlogging (May 25, 2013)

Gologit said:


> If you're taking out more than the lightning tree you could cripple it up and drive it with another tree.
> 
> If you're taking just the one fall it the regular way but stay on your toes. Watch your chips...big color changes, punk dust, that sort of thing. Sounding the tree might not be a bad idea either.
> 
> More pictures, especially the first third of the tree from the ground, would help.



This is my first thought too, cut it the regular way . #### like that can sit on your bar just when facing it making things all of a sudden far more dicey than deisred but other times they just go over like anything else. Make sure your laces arte tied and tucked out of the way. But, I do try to have my face and hinge somewhat on the perpindicular side to the fracture if I can in somehting like that so that the tension is not running parallel to the fracture thus lessening the potential for enhancing stresses on fracture while felling- ya?. Seems to make sense in my mind.


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## RandyMac (May 25, 2013)

Yummmm, tasty, love me some raggedy assed DFs.

The internal structure may well have been altered and could be a bar tip grabbin' SOB.
Remember this is me talking here.
I'd find a big fat old style hard nose bar, with a wide kerf for this, I see a ####load of plunge cut dabbing and reaming.
I personally wouldn't sweat much over this.


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## bitzer (May 25, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> This is my first thought too, cut it the regular way . #### like that can sit on your bar just when facing it making things all of a sudden far more dicey than deisred but other times they just go over like anything else. Make sure your laces arte tied and tucked out of the way. But, I do try to have my face and hinge somewhat on the perpindicular side to the fracture if I can in somehting like that so that the tension is not running parallel to the fracture thus lessening the potential for enhancing stresses on fracture while felling- ya?. Seems to make sense in my mind.



Yep, if you keep the fracture in the face and the backcut (not across the hinge) you will have a better chance of it. I've had it when the fracture pops and sits right on your bar though. Always a fun time. Sometimes its just best to individually fall the real uglies like you said. The problem with driving it could be not setting it up right or things just not working out. You can easily make a ####ty situation worse that way.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 26, 2013)

nm, I can't comment much here, I don't know the characteristics of ya'lls wood. I have cut white oak and pine like that. struck pine here are no problem, oak another story they crack and move while ya cutting it. what the others said makes sense, I don't think i'd try ta swing it jus get it down and then think bout getting it out even if have to buck it up. maybe cut it last be easyer, more room.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 11, 2013)

today's the day... of course there will be video. Too be honest I'm a little concerned about this one.:msp_unsure:


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

good luck northman, be alert.


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## slowp (Aug 11, 2013)

Don't video. :msp_ohmy: The camera is like parking a brand new diesel pickup within striking range. :msp_ohmy: You know what that would do.


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## coastalfaller (Aug 11, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> nm, I can't comment much here, I don't know the characteristics of ya'lls wood. I have cut white oak and pine like that. struck pine here are no problem, oak another story they crack and move while ya cutting it. what the others said makes sense, I don't think i'd try ta swing it jus get it down and then think bout getting it out even if have to buck it up. maybe cut it last be easyer, more room.



Just read this thread, not trying to be a jerk and step on your toes, but don't cut it last. Leave some good pushers around it. It's nice to have something to hit it with if you do end up needing to nudge it over.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 11, 2013)

so it here it is, if you have sensitive ears play it with mute on...

Started going the wrong way, so I figured cut backwards, then for no reason at all turned around back the way I wanted it and pinched my bar real good, so the 461 comes in to bat cleanup, enjoy[video=youtube;NQJdoJPfMzQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQJdoJPfMzQ[/video]


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

dang man, ya almost lost that saw. that tree got to ya a little. i think if ya hit them wedges some more you woulda avoided all that. i'm not picin tho, ya got her down. good job bro.
oh, when you watch this look how close the turnin chain looks to yer leg.


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## Gologit (Aug 11, 2013)

It's hard to tell from the vid but when you backed it up was your cut a little low and angled slightly upward? That will cause them to set back sometimes.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

hey Bob, when we gonna see some pics from you? really we could all prolly learn sumthin from you. i know your busy, but had to ask. did i read some where you have some equipment? love to see that to, if ya get time.


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## twochains (Aug 11, 2013)

*DAMN!* I was nervous for there man! I figured you would just have to kick dirt over that saw...glad yer luck runs better than mine! LOL! I hate trees like that, you put all that effort into getting it down and it just vaporizes on impact. Good job though, that looked like it would get yer heart a thumpin'! :msp_thumbup:


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## rwoods (Aug 11, 2013)

I believe that tree was looking for some revenge and tried to get it from you. Sorry you didn't get a log, at least nature will enjoy the remains for a while. Ron


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## HuskStihl (Aug 11, 2013)

If I hadn't read the text I would have assumed you were just taking advantage of your ambidexterity and doing the face and backcut at the same time for efficiency. When I saw that mofo plop down right next to that 660 I almost passed out. I got nothing for you in terms of falling advice, but why the heck was that power head still on the 660 when the tree went over??!


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## HuskStihl (Aug 11, 2013)

I will say you definitely make 27 lbs of saw and bar look a lot lighter than I do. I like how your spotter helped with what the top was doing.


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## madhatte (Aug 11, 2013)

I might have gasped aloud a bit when the butt took the 660 over. MIGHT have. I might also have done something similar once. I might know a thing or two about replacing brake handles on Stihls as a result. None of this can be confirmed or denied, by myself or others. Idle speculation, y'know.


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## paccity (Aug 11, 2013)

ya lucked out on that .:msp_wink: not going to critique you . but the saw lived.


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## paccity (Aug 11, 2013)

Gologit said:


> It's hard to tell from the vid but when you backed it up was your cut a little low and angled slightly upward? That will cause them to set back sometimes.



could be the angle of the cam, but it did look a little flat at the hinge . randy should be along to call you a fibrous name .:msp_wink:


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## RandyMac (Aug 11, 2013)

paccity said:


> could be the angle of the cam, but it did look a little flat at the hinge . randy should be along to call you a fibrous name .:msp_wink:



what could you possibly mean?


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## paccity (Aug 11, 2013)

ha.


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## RandyMac (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm reserving that term for Madhatte and other noobs.


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## paccity (Aug 11, 2013)

feel free sir.:msp_smile:


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## RandyMac (Aug 11, 2013)

paccity said:


> feel free sir.:msp_smile:



spruce suck


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

i have replaced a brake handle myself. but not lately.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 11, 2013)

I like destroying my saws with bush hogs personally. I wasn't kidding about the power head. With the inboard clutch the power head is just 2 bar nuts from being in the truck when the tree falls. This sounds jerky, but I have a thing for 90+cc saws. Sorry of being a "double-tapered item". Just step over me


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

no husk, ya right. i lost the first 460 cuz i did not have wedges or a saw wrench in my pocket. jus don't get crushed cuz ya love ya saw.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 11, 2013)

the thing is, and thanks all for not totally tearing me a new one, after it started to go over backwards the split off stuff was literally just hanging by a thread, I didn't feel like standing under it longer then I had to, so if I sacrifice a saw to keep an 8' long chunk of doug fir outta my neck so what. 

The spotter was there to watch for falling badness, if he blew the whistle I ran like Hel.

Wedges where out if you look closely I stuff two in and that whole side of the tree peeled off only had about 3" I could have gotten one in but no room to swing to hit it hard enough. 

The camera was about 3-4' below where I was cutting other wise the stump is level.

And yeah the chain gets close to my leg that's ok though that's the steel reinforced one:msp_w00t: 

This one was destined to be fire wood no matter what I did with it, the one on the right I got 3 36's out of...

Thanks for the advice, good, bad, and ugly.:smile2:


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> the thing is, and thanks all for not totally tearing me a new one, after it started to go over backwards the split off stuff was literally just hanging by a thread, I didn't feel like standing under it longer then I had to, so if I sacrifice a saw to keep an 8' long chunk of doug fir outta my neck so what.
> 
> The spotter was there to watch for falling badness, if he blew the whistle I ran like Hel.
> 
> ...



it is hard to see every thing from a vid or pic. none of us was there. you done fine.
i think i may have forgotten this was that damaged tree.


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## madhatte (Aug 11, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I'm reserving that term for Madhatte and other noobs.



Aw, now, I KNOW you're not talking about me...


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 11, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Aw, now, I KNOW you're not talking about me...



looks like hickory? didn't think y'all had that over there.


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## JakeG (Aug 11, 2013)

That video made me sit up and move in closer when she sat back... When the saw went for a ride my youngest heard a couple four letter words... 

It would have went a lot smoother if the camera weren't rolling! Glad you and the saw are alright


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## northmanlogging (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm still trying to figure how she sat back, and then went back the right way. The top moved a good 5-6 feet, I was ready to dump it the bad way and next thing I know it comes back around??? no wind or nothing weird... 

my hands where shaking pretty bad after that one by the way...


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## JakeG (Aug 11, 2013)

Yes sir... I bet the nerves were pretty bad after that. Maybe there was slight wind 100' up from that hill the tree was on.


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## rwoods (Aug 11, 2013)

Northman, this firewood hack has got to agree with you on ditching the saw - trying to save the saw would have put you in a bad spot - life and limb are worth far more than a nice saw. Ron


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## madhatte (Aug 11, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> looks like hickory? didn't think y'all had that over there.



It is, and we don't... that was from a month cutting following a big ice storm early last year. It was planted along with a lot of other east-coast species as ornamentals "inside the fence" where I don't usually work. Best pic I have of me pulling fiber...


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## 056 kid (Aug 11, 2013)

madhatte said:


> It is, and we don't... that was from a month cutting following a big ice storm early last year. It was planted along with a lot of other east-coast species as ornamentals "inside the fence" where I don't usually work. Best pic I have of me pulling fiber...



If there is any tree in north america that needs a micro hinge it's a hickory. Best to gut the heart.


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## madhatte (Aug 11, 2013)

056 kid said:


> If there is any tree in north america that needs a micro hinge it's a hickory. Best to gut the heart.



Didn't even know what it was when I started cutting on it. It was winter and there were no leaves. It was toward the end of a long day. I had two stacks of two 8" wedges in there and it just kept holding on. When it finally went over, it was like it was in slow motion. I kept nibbling at the hinge until it gave up. I will definitely gut the next hickory I cut. So far this was the only one. I don't know who planted it or when or why. Most of the rest of the non-natives I cut were red oaks and sycamores, and a few sweetgums. I like the red oaks -- they behave well on the stump. Sycamores, not so much, or at least not mid-winter. Heavy, wet, and brittle.


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## 2dogs (Aug 12, 2013)

It's funny, if you just look at the vid without reading the text and looking at those pics the tree looks normal and no big deal. Reality doesn't always show up on camera.

You know you did not line up the Humboldt with the gunning cut. It is always a good idea to correct that before the back cut. How deep was the gunning cut? I could not tell on the vid. I would also used wedges earlier, and keep them tight. Your partner could have done that for you maybe. I would have also wedged more before going to the front of the tree. If I needed to cut more I would have cut the corners from behind. That's the world according Bill. It is good to have the tree on the ground though, eh?


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## 046 (Aug 12, 2013)

screw the saw .. glad you got it down with you in one piece!


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## northmanlogging (Aug 12, 2013)

Yes it is this ones been keeping me up for a few weeks...

It did explode on impact though! very noisy...


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## 056 kid (Aug 12, 2013)

Maybe I missed something, but you would have had a stick knock your hat off as soon as you started sawing on the face for the 2nd time like that. Again, I wont there but WTF man? Its not like she was all sawed up, and its not like you tried lifting it hard. Im kinda at a loss... I was not there though...


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## RandyMac (Aug 12, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Aw, now, I KNOW you're not talking about me...



fiber puller


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## northmanlogging (Aug 12, 2013)

056 kid said:


> Maybe I missed something, but you would have had a stick knock your hat off as soon as you started sawing on the face for the 2nd time like that. Again, I wont there but WTF man? Its not like she was all sawed up, and its not like you tried lifting it hard. Im kinda at a loss... I was not there though...



Couldn't lift, back cut side split off all the wedges where doing was tearing off a 60' slab, ran out of memory on my smell phone otherwise I would have gotten a picture of the butt, then I think all would have been clear-ish. 

And yes normally I would never cut the face again but since wedging was out, sending it over backwards was not my first choice but safer than the alternative.

I took another short vid, kinda explains a little better, I'll post it tonight.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2013)

rwoods said:


> Northman, this firewood hack has got to agree with you on ditching the saw - trying to save the saw would have put you in a bad spot - life and limb are worth far more than a nice saw. Ron





046 said:


> screw the saw .. glad you got it down with you in one piece!



I had figured if he had time to go get the 461 and saw from the other side, he had time to remove those bar nuts. Especially with a spotter there. I wasn't there, but life is full of calculated risks. I can get my 385 head off the bar in about 30 seconds without needing to look down. I woulda moved it. I may change my mind with the new video


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## slowp (Aug 12, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm still trying to figure how she sat back, and then went back the right way. The top moved a good 5-6 feet, I was ready to dump it the bad way and next thing I know it comes back around??? no wind or nothing weird...
> 
> my hands where shaking pretty bad after that one by the way...




I'm telling you, it is because you videoed the operation! Everything would have been fine, except you had to have a camera there. So, it did look like a piece was loose and swinging a bit near you. Loose bark? or a big sliver?



HuskStihl said:


> I had figured if he had time to go get the 461 and saw from the other side, he had time to remove those bar nuts. Especially with a spotter there. I wasn't there, but life is full of calculated risks. I can get my 385 head off the bar in about 30 seconds without needing to look down. I woulda moved it. I may change my mind with the new video



The spare saw was not in the tree. He did the right thing as far as I'm concerned, but I'm not a  faller. Things can fall out of those trees quickly. I once had a limb land next to me and the depth those things will impale themselves in the ground is impressive. 

I have seen another saw that was damaged a bit from a tree going the wrong way. The father/son team packed it down to the road and hammered the bar straight and proclaimed it to be worthy of being a spare saw.


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## Gologit (Aug 12, 2013)

I have to throw in with the "leave the saw" comments...especially in this case. There are times when you can take the power head off but I don't think this was one of them. As far as that tree was sawed up I wouldn't have wanted to be spending any more time next to it than necessary.

It's just a saw. And a lesson. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth, cuss yourself a little, and let it go. I've had some fine saws but I've never had one I'd risk my life over.

LOL...I wouldn't want "He Saved His Saw" as an epitaph.


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## madhatte (Aug 12, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> fiber puller



Arrh, thar she blows


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## RandyMac (Aug 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I have to throw in with the "leave the saw" comments...especially in this case. There are times when you can take the power head off but I don't think this was one of them. As far as that tree was sawed up I wouldn't have wanted to be spending any more time next to it than necessary.
> 
> It's just a saw. And a lesson. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth, cuss yourself a little, and let it go. I've had some fine saws but I've never had one I'd risk my life over.
> 
> LOL...I wouldn't want "He Saved His Saw" as an epitaph.



Don't do a Brad.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2013)

Ok I've been talking like a chainsaw guy and not a logger (cause that's how it is). All sorts of real loggers have said leave it/don't risk it. So..........Ichangedmymindonlyanidiotwouldworryaboutasawinthatsituation. Whew. Wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be

While I will no longer advise this course of action, being an idiot, I would have taken the head off and just left the tree for a few hours and hoped it had an accident:biggrin:


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## bustedup (Aug 12, 2013)

The most important thing.....you walked away unhurt .............saws ya can replace human life ya can't........I ain't gonna say anything my friend as I wasn't the one standing below it and any advice really is just theoretical when you ain't there......


Again your safe and there always another day and another stick to fall


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## bustedup (Aug 12, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Ok I've been talking like a chainsaw guy and not a logger (cause that's how it is). All sorts of real loggers have said leave it/don't risk it. So..........Ichangedmymindonlyanidiotwouldworryaboutasawinthatsituation. Whew. Wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be
> 
> While I will no longer advise this course of action, being an idiot, I would have taken the head off and just left the tree for a few hours and hoped it had an accident:biggrin:



Jon.....with all respect to you .......if you stand under a stick that you aren't sure which way it gonna go and bits already split out and try and take a powerhead off .......then ......... you needing the short bus ..........no disrespect bro but holy crap a saw is a saw a human life is much more precious


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## slowp (Aug 12, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Ok I've been talking like a chainsaw guy and not a logger (cause that's how it is). All sorts of real loggers have said leave it/don't risk it. So..........Ichangedmymindonlyanidiotwouldworryaboutasawinthatsituation. Whew. Wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be
> 
> While I will no longer advise this course of action, being an idiot, I would have taken the head off and just left the tree for a few hours and hoped it had an accident:biggrin:



That's not much of an option either, in a logging area. You'd at least need to flag the tree and let everybody know that you'd left it. People have to work in the area. Of course, the other uses of danger flagging sometimes make it easy to ignore, like using it to flag where you left your box of donettos, or where you hid the elk shed, or ... 

He did fine, despite ignoring my warning of camera effects.


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## RandyMac (Aug 12, 2013)

There are trees with nothing better to do, waiting ####up your day


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## Gologit (Aug 12, 2013)

slowp said:


> That's not much of an option either, in a logging area. You'd at least need to flag the tree and let everybody know that you'd left it. People have to work in the area. Of course, the other uses of danger flagging sometimes make it easy to ignore, like using it to flag where you left your box of donettos, or where you hid the elk shed, or ...
> 
> He did fine, despite ignoring my warning of camera effects.



No, no, no!!! You never leave your Donettos unattended. If you leave them in the woods the squirrels will get them. Or maybe a Forester.
If you leave them on the landing the landing rats will get them. Won't be anything left but a soggy little piece of cardboard where they licked all the residual chocolate and crumbs off.

Guard your Donettos with your life.


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## paccity (Aug 12, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> There are trees with nothing better to do, waiting ####up your day



thats a fine stick.:msp_rolleyes:


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## paccity (Aug 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> No, no, no!!! You never leave your Donettos unattended. If you leave them in the woods the squirrels will get them. Or maybe a Forester.
> If you leave them on the landing the landing rats will get them. Won't be anything left but a soggy little piece of cardboard where they licked all the residual chocolate and crumbs off.
> 
> Guard your Donettos with your life.



theres priorities in life, and that's one of them.


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## Gologit (Aug 12, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> There are trees with nothing better to do, waiting ####up your day



That's a *Jesus* tree. When you're cutting it and you feel the saw slide into the rot and it starts to go sideways on you...and when you see what it looks like when it hits the ground...you mention His name. Among others. :msp_rolleyes:

Plus, when you get one like that you really start taking a good look at the next ones.


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## paccity (Aug 12, 2013)

. yup they have you thinkin hard. this one moved around a lot, but stayed togather.


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## RandyMac (Aug 12, 2013)

Farkin' White Firs in that area were almost all rotten. I called then 2-16 trees, 'cause that is what you got from them.


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## bustedup (Aug 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> No, no, no!!! You never leave your Donettos unattended. If you leave them in the woods the squirrels will get them. Or maybe a Forester.
> If you leave them on the landing the landing rats will get them. Won't be anything left but a soggy little piece of cardboard where they licked all the residual chocolate and crumbs off.
> 
> Guard your Donettos with your life.



Eh don't leave nothing on the landing ....esp ya caulks as when ya go back to get em ya might juss find those fine upstanding men on the landing have left ya a wee present in them lol.........and it won't be the missing donettos lol


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## roberte (Aug 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> No, no, no!!! You never leave your Donettos unattended. If you leave them in the woods the squirrels will get them. Or maybe a Forester.
> If you leave them on the landing the landing rats will get them. Won't be anything left but a soggy little piece of cardboard where they licked all the residual chocolate and crumbs off.
> 
> Guard your Donettos with your life.



what the hel are donettos being saved for later for? They don't get better with age...:hmm3grin2orange: 

now skoal or Copenhagen maybe...


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## paccity (Aug 12, 2013)

didn't think donettos had a shelf life. like twinkies.


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## Gologit (Aug 12, 2013)

Twinkies and Donettos have a shelf life roughly equivalent to nuclear waste. When I sold my last pickup I was cleaning out under the seats and found a half eaten package of Donettos. They weren't bad...just scraped a little dust and crud off. Not bad at all. The chocolate was a little dry and discolored but that's all.


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## bustedup (Aug 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Twinkies and Donettos have a shelf life roughly equivalent to nuclear waste. When I sold my last pickup I was cleaning out under the seats and found a half eaten package of Donettos. They weren't bad...just scraped a little dust and crud off. Not bad at all. The chocolate was a little dry and discolored but that's all.



Well they do say waste not want not lol...........


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## paccity (Aug 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Twinkies and Donettos have a shelf life roughly equivalent to nuclear waste. When I sold my last pickup I was cleaning out under the seats and found a half eaten package of Donettos. They weren't bad...just scraped a little dust and crud off. Not bad at all. The chocolate was a little dry and discolored but that's all.



lol.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2013)

bustedup said:


> The most important thing.....you walked away unhurt .............saws ya can replace human life ya can't........I ain't gonna say anything my friend as I wasn't the one standing below it and any advice really is just theoretical when you ain't there......
> 
> 
> Again your safe and there always another day and another stick to fall





slowp said:


> That's not much of an option either, in a logging area. You'd at least need to flag the tree and let everybody know that you'd left it. People have to work in the area. Of course, the other uses of danger flagging sometimes make it easy to ignore, like using it to flag where you left your box of donettos, or where you hid the elk shed, or ...
> 
> He did fine, despite ignoring my warning of camera effects.



I don't get it. If the tree is so dangerous and able to drop slabs on you so viciously that even with a spotter, taking the power head off is too dangerous, but it is proper to head back to it, saw on it a bunch a pound a few wedges into it, just to avoid leaving a hazard for a few hours? If with no breeze it moved that much, there's got to be decent chance a small breeze will pop up and blow it over. Wouldn't the other loggers understand needing to stay away and not fault you for wanting to see what happened? This is *not* a critique of Northman, I just honestly don't understand. I also can't believe I'm arguing logging on a thread with Bob, Randy, Kid, Pac, Busted, Slowp, TS, NM etc.. I don't even know what the #### Donettos are for God's sake! Officially back to observing and "liking" on this thread. Thanks for u'r patience


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## twochains (Aug 12, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I don't get it. If the tree is so dangerous and able to drop slabs on you so viciously that even with a spotter, taking the power head off is too dangerous, but it is proper to head back to it, saw on it a bunch a pound a few wedges into it, just to avoid leaving a hazard for a few hours? If with no breeze it moved that much, there's got to be decent chance a small breeze will pop up and blow it over. Wouldn't the other loggers understand needing to stay away and not fault you for wanting to see what happened? This is *not* a critique of Northman, I just honestly don't understand. I also can't believe I'm arguing logging on a thread with Bob, Randy, Kid, Pac, Busted, Slowp, TS, NM etc.. I don't even know what the #### Donettos are for God's sake! Officially back to observing and "liking" on this thread. Thanks for u'r patience



Dude, I wouldn't sweat the arguing...yer not really arguing anyway. Had the tree not been moving at all...I would have grabbed my saw wrench and had the power head and running for the hills...then if the tree was still standing, gone back with the 460 and seen what could be done to alleviate the potential danger. Husk, for me, if it was my brand new 660 (that i havent received yet) and my boss had just dropped $1,200 for it, I would have got the power head off. Had it been my own personal saw..I may have left it but most likely not. 

I stress the fact that the circumstances would have to lean my way or I would leave the saw...well it is sad but my little family would be better off with cashing in my $250,000 life insurance policy. As hard as I work, I will never be able to provide an excellent living for Heather and Colt...and "that" is a sad reality my friend.


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## slowp (Aug 12, 2013)

There are people who wander around logging units sometimes after the crew has vacated the units. These people are often called foresters. If the ground is not so steep that rolling logs are a hazard, foresters will hop and skip throught the unit checking stuff. Like falling. Now, if you left the tree setting back and the wind blew it over and there was an unattended forester in the way, did they make a sound? Think about it.
Plus there are OSHA rules about leaving hangups behind. 

My neighbor calls it "sattin back". 

They do make squirrel proof containers for Donettos, so you could leave them with the fire extinguisher and shovel. :msp_tongue:


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## roberte (Aug 12, 2013)

that POS started moving, splitting and sitting back at about 3:40 on the tape and continued to grow. we are only looking at 1 dimension on the tape btw. the powerhead is stuck on the same side as the split, (not sure I would have went after it either) however powerhead be damned (your (generally speaking) committed to mitigate the hazard. fortunately it came down and it appears NM and the saw got little more than some bark buffing and a shorts check. 

I give NM props for posting a hazard vid with the aftermath.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 12, 2013)

dam right Rob, i wish i could double like some stuff. i realized after my first comment, this was the split tree. there is a better pic early on in this thread that will make this clearer. i have left saws. self preservation takes over. Clint ol buddy, i gaurentee you are more important to ya family than that. i will give you a saw, jus don't die for one guys. Jon, it is illiegal for us to leave a tree half cut or hanging.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Jon, it is illiegal for us to leave a tree half cut or hanging.



I was only talking about leaving it for a few hrs to see, but I still don't get thinking a saw is not worth dying for, but thinking a governmental regulation is. If the tree was that unstable, it would fall, if not head back in a couple of hours. I totally understand not leaving it to fall on some hikers.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 12, 2013)

could be one of them crazy logger things i guess Jon. really the best would be to just leave those, but some times it in the deal to put those down.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> could be one of them crazy logger things i guess Jon. really the best would be to just leave those, but some times it in the deal to put those down.



I do understand that


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## roberte (Aug 12, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> could be one of them crazy logger things i guess Jon. really the best would be to just leave those, but some times it in the deal to put those down.





HuskStihl said:


> I do understand that



It's a situation that requires immediate attention, not referencing NM here, but you do what you have too to get the hazard down. Sure leaving and getting help is an option, radio or calling in higher up on the list.
I look at like , ok my mess not leaving till I absolutely have too, not risking getting someone or something taken out on my mess.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 12, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I was only talking about leaving it for a few hrs to see, but I still don't get thinking a saw is not worth dying for, but thinking a governmental regulation is. If the tree was that unstable, it would fall, if not head back in a couple of hours. I totally understand not leaving it to fall on some hikers.



To put it in perspective, the big fir next to it could probably buy me two more saws... so yeah leave it.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> To put it in perspective, the big fir next to it could probably buy me two more saws... so yeah leave it.




But it's a 066/660! Sorry, chainsaw guy again. Official apology to NM for questioning his business. Ain't for me to judge


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## northmanlogging (Aug 12, 2013)

don't sweat it, I sold my first 066, I'll probably end up selling this one too, the basket case and the new 461 are the ones I might hang on to out of sentimentality... being the first new saw and the saw I built my business on.

None of em are worth dying for.:msp_wink:


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## madhatte (Aug 12, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Jon, it is illiegal for us to leave a tree half cut or hanging.



The way I read this regulation (I've run afoul of it with a hanger or two myself) is that if a tree is unstable on its own, no biggie, but if I touch it, I'm responsible for it. That said, push-falling it with another tree, or equipment, or blasting it down, or whatever it takes, if we start the process we have to see it to the ground. I think this is reasonable. As for killing a saw or two now and then, them's the breaks. I haven't yet busted anything I couldn't fix, but my turn is surely coming. It's only a matter of time.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 12, 2013)

Pardon the shakeyness, the thumbnail shows the offside best though. wasn't meant to be a heres what happened on my crappy tree falling vid, more a this is what I did yo...

[video=youtube_share;zL_U8RjlNRA]http://youtu.be/zL_U8RjlNRA[/video]


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 12, 2013)

i'm a hard wood guy but that big stick is nice. some times we gotta take a turd in order to enjoy the gravy. just how it is.


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## 2dogs (Aug 12, 2013)

The last time I had to pull a power head and leave the bar time was not a factor. I had cutting area control so even if the tree fell on its own it was going to fall into the lean and the lay. It took maybe 4 or 5 minutes to walk to the truck and grab the scrench and pull the power head.

Before that time, a few years ago I had time to grab the camera and snap 1 pic that (I posted that here later) before I had to cut a new face. Taking the power head off sometimes is a real bear to do. Or impossible.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 12, 2013)

madhatte said:


> The way I read this regulation (I've run afoul of it with a hanger or two myself) is that if a tree is unstable on its own, no biggie, but if I touch it, I'm responsible for it. That said, push-falling it with another tree, or equipment, or blasting it down, or whatever it takes, if we start the process we have to see it to the ground. I think this is reasonable. As for killing a saw or two now and then, them's the breaks. I haven't yet busted anything I couldn't fix, but my turn is surely coming. It's only a matter of time.



I make it a personal point to never leave anything hung up or sky bound, too many crews out here will stack 4-5 trees into a leave tree and just call the skidder in to pull em out, thereby making the leave tree a salvage tree, or they leave #### hung up all over the place on private ground and deal with it tomorrow or next week whatever, not my land... pisses me off.


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## 2dogs (Aug 12, 2013)

Any hanger or sky bound tree gets flagged at 1 1/2 times the height of the tree. 100' tall tree is flagged out at 150' diameter.


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## RandyMac (Aug 12, 2013)

I have never walked away from one.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 13, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I have never walked away from one.



That's really brave. I've walked away from dozens. We are talking about women, right?:biggrin:


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## 2dogs (Aug 13, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I have never walked away from one.



Neither have I but I have waited by the base for the wind to change and help me out.


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## RandyMac (Aug 13, 2013)

2dogs said:


> Neither have I but I have waited by the base for the wind to change and help me out.



I have re-cut, waited, prayed, pounded wedges, but never left one hanging.


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## bitzer (Aug 13, 2013)

I would have gotten the head off. Either that or there is the pull cord as a last resort. There is almost always time if you are observant enough to know when its really time to split. Also if you could have put that one on the ground with the lean I would have. That slab will pop out every time at you. PUSH the damn thing if you can. If its a matter of life and death or pissin the landowner off because you cut an unmarked or leave tree, well you know what I'd do. All bets are off with everything until I get something like that on the ground safely (I would have let them know that too before I laid into it). If I need to borrow any surrounding timber I will. I've been in that same exact situation many times (not in softwood obviously) and it can be different every time. I'd just try to figure out all of the scenarios beforehand and what I can use from my surroundings before I get to sawin away. Typically I don't get weeks or months to look at a particular ugly that has to come down. Its just in part of my cutting for the day when I walk up to it. Make sure you've got everything sawed up first before you start cutting the face off. And if you absolutely have to cut a tree off the stump cut the holding corner off towards the middle (the tree will have some kind of side lean no matter how slight), make sure its going the right way, and run like hell! These situations never show how ugly they are in video I know.


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## slowp (Aug 13, 2013)

My point of view with safety? We always had a dreadfully boring meeting prior to operations starting and would go over what to do if you had to take another tree that was not designated. That is OK to do BUT, you fallers or your boss or your first born needs to let the other party know that you had to cut an undesignated tree. Otherwise, if I came across one on my skipping through the brush excursion, I wouldn't know what was going on and was likely to phone your boss and be very cranky. 

This is for huskystihls benefit--we foresters can usually spot a hung up tree. Those occur in nature too. But a set back tree? If you don't come at it from the right angle, or the brush is thick, or you don't wear your glasses in the woods, and miss seeing the face cut, it looks just like a normal standing tree and you'll walk right under it or by it. That's why those beasts are extra dangerous to my way of thinking. Every once in a while, a bad firewood hack will leave one by a road. One memorable one was left during the night along a fairly busy road. The wind blew it enough to open up the cut so somebody noticed and a faller was sent out immediately to get it on the ground. No saw was left behind though. We figured it was a case of somebody with too short of a bar--it was an old growth doug fir.


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## madhatte (Aug 13, 2013)

slowp said:


> Every once in a while, a bad firewood hack will leave one by a road.



Or, you know, all the way up in the air:


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## HuskStihl (Aug 13, 2013)

slowp said:


> My point of view with safety? We always had a dreadfully boring meeting prior to operations starting and would go over what to do if you had to take another tree that was not designated. That is OK to do BUT, you fallers or your boss or your first born needs to let the other party know that you had to cut an undesignated tree. Otherwise, if I came across one on my skipping through the brush excursion, I wouldn't know what was going on and was likely to phone your boss and be very cranky.
> 
> This is for huskystihls benefit--we foresters can usually spot a hung up tree. Those occur in nature too. But a set back tree? If you don't come at it from the right angle, or the brush is thick, or you don't wear your glasses in the woods, and miss seeing the face cut, it looks just like a normal standing tree and you'll walk right under it or by it. That's why those beasts are extra dangerous to my way of thinking. Every once in a while, a bad firewood hack will leave one by a road. One memorable one was left during the night along a fairly busy road. The wind blew it enough to open up the cut so somebody noticed and a faller was sent out immediately to get it on the ground. No saw was left behind though. We figured it was a case of somebody with too short of a bar--it was an old growth doug fir.



I totally understand not leaving a hung or skybound tree behind. I was only talking about giving it a couple of hours and hoping for a gust. But ya, I definitely ran my mouth before I understood the badness this tree represented, which while not atypical, is nonetheless regretable


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## bustedup (Aug 13, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I totally understand not leaving a hung or skybound tree behind. I was only talking about giving it a couple of hours and hoping for a gust. But ya, I definitely ran my mouth before I understood the badness this tree represented, which while not atypical, is nonetheless regretable



Husk ......no matter what folks say fallers take pride in their work and take responsibility for it to and I've never know any of that ilk to leave a stick (unless it well marked etc as previously said) that wasn't on the ground


Hey Randy bet ya cussed a bit as well as praying etc lol


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## RandyMac (Aug 13, 2013)

bustedup said:


> Hey Randy bet ya cussed a bit as well as praying etc lol



fervently


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## paccity (Aug 13, 2013)

lucky no one was around when this folded up. some peoples kids. at least i got a bar and chain out of it.


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 5, 2013)

jrcat said:


> do you need this?



Bad ass skid/yarder


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 5, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> so it here it is, if you have sensitive ears play it with mute on...
> 
> Started going the wrong way, so I figured cut backwards, then for no reason at all turned around back the way I wanted it and pinched my bar real good, so the 461 comes in to bat cleanup, enjoy[video=youtube;NQJdoJPfMzQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQJdoJPfMzQ[/video]



Yee haw


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## tramp bushler (Sep 7, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> Yummmm, tasty, love me some raggedy assed DFs.
> 
> The internal structure may well have been altered and could be a bar tip grabbin' SOB.
> Remember this is me talking here.
> ...




That's what I was thinking but not the hard nose bar. . I wouldn't go at it with less than a 36" bar with a real sharp chain so you can keep it off the dogs. Have a spare bar and chains right there too. 
I myself wouldn't overly sweat it but then I'm a S.E. snag faller. And I Know that that tree might kill me. Like Hammer said try to face + back it up perp to the split if you can.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 7, 2013)

Well, I guess I was late for the party. How did the 660 make out. ????? . That's why the spare bar and chains, not a whole nother saw.


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## Rounder (Sep 7, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I have never walked away from one.



That's the way I've always understood it to work.

-Hope you all had a good, safe week - Sam

-Take care Randy, hope all's well.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 7, 2013)

OK. I've been thru the thread now. . But my advice is still the same. Unless your independently wealthy. If you can walk up to the tree with a spare saw you have plenty of time to get the powerheads off. . You could walk around the tree. No spring boards. No 50+° slope. Tree grew up out of the ground not out and up. . When you were facing it up I thot yourface was kinda shallow, and so it turned out to be. . Steep and deep. And on one that is split like that use a conventional face. Seriously, a conventional face. . If your gonna cut in Alaska you will have to daily deal with trees that make this look easy. 
I may be gettin after ya, but, I'm telling you the truth. . 
You did good in that you got it down and are alive and healthy.


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## bitzer (Sep 8, 2013)

Dead nuts right Glen!


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## northmanlogging (Sep 8, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> OK. I've been thru the thread now. . But my advice is still the same. Unless your independently wealthy. If you can walk up to the tree with a spare saw you have plenty of time to get the powerheads off. . You could walk around the tree. No spring boards. No 50+° slope. Tree grew up out of the ground not out and up. . When you were facing it up I thot yourface was kinda shallow, and so it turned out to be. . Steep and deep. And on one that is split like that use a conventional face. Seriously, a conventional face. . If your gonna cut in Alaska you will have to daily deal with trees that make this look easy.
> I may be gettin after ya, but, I'm telling you the truth. .
> You did good in that you got it down and are alive and healthy.



Thanks Glen,

There are a number of things I would do differently if faced with again.

Had a second saw already there, I had spent the better part of the morning falling smaller stuff and had to walk out and pack the 066 in... figured I would go ahead and leave the 461 there until all was done. If the second saw was not there I would have unbolted and swapped out to a second bar and continued on...

As it was the tree jumped a good 10 feet from the stump and missed the saw completely which I'll admit is mostly luck.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 8, 2013)

Believe me every faller that has cut timber for any amount of time has had to say bye to his saw too many times. I've had 3saws go down the mountain stuck in the butt of a tree. All of which lived long afterward Thank God!! . 
The good thing about pulling the powerhead off is it gives you a little time to look and listen. With a problem tree like that its best to have only 1 powerhead in the danger zone. 
Its bad enough to pretzel a nice bar and chain. But add a thousand dollars of powerhead in and that throws away a weeks pay. Or the better part of it. . One of the reasons Jordan ( CoastalFaller) said to leave trees near it wasn't just to have a driver. But to have something to hide behind. . The trees I hate to fall the most is the road fringe from a strip that will be logged uphill. Nothing to hide behind and decks of right of way logs to dodge.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 8, 2013)

With snags, steep and deep with a cleaned out face and on really bad snags a conventional face. I almost got it one time in Shoal Cove because I thot I was smarter than guy that taught me that . . 
There are just a whole bunch of problems with falling snags. 

Oh and another tip. Avoid trying to hammer red cedar snags. . They will split up lengthwise but they are hard as hell to knock over. Then after you've torqued the s### out of them and prolly left some extra widow makers in them you have to go fall them. Better to just bite the bullet and go fall them once you have them opened up.


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## HuskStihl (Sep 8, 2013)

This is one of the better threads I pollute. Seeing real fallers have to fight for their saws and lives is an amazing eye opener to sub-firewood hacks like me. Much respect for NM having the integrity to put this here


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