# False Crotches????



## Small Job Tim (Feb 3, 2009)

I have worked for a few tree companies over the past few years. I have seen the climbers using a rope to create a false crotch to catch limbs and tops. On the same note, I have seen the same rope/false crotch rig-up used instead of a port-a-wrap. (Note: no pulleys or hardwear, just rope). I know that this is not a good idea for heavy loads (especially with one ground man), but can I use this false crotch/false port-a-wrap combo for lowering lighter loads? Assuming I use the properly rated ropes for this, is it safe?
I have seen it pulled off before, but now that the responsibility is on me, I would like to know if this is reasonable.

Thanks again everyone.

- T. McD.


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

what!! glad you asked. dont even think about it. rope on rope will burn threw like a hot nife in butter. its ok to hump tree parts out of a pick-e'm up truck but dont ever half ass your rigging gear. you want the good chit send me a pm and ill work with you and your broke-ass budget


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## Rftreeman (Feb 3, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> what!! glad you asked. dont even think about it. rope on rope will burn threw like a hot nife in butter. its ok to hump tree parts out of a pick-e'm up truck but dont ever half ass your rigging gear. you want the good chit send me a pm and ill work with you and your broke-ass budget


:agree2: for once.........lol.ha ha


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## Mikecutstrees (Feb 3, 2009)

No, it's not responsible. And it doesn't make sence to run a business this way. The ropes will wear through and new ones will have to be bought. A proper block will never wear out and is the smart investment. Mike

P.S. CMI makes a very nice 5/8" block that is only $101 and you can do just about anything with that. 4,000 lb WLL. It will last a lifetime....


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## ozarktreeman (Feb 3, 2009)

the way i rig false crotch is with a big D ring used on the beds of trailers.Has work fine for me.just dont rig big stuff with.
seems to work fine with broke-ass budget!


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

a hard bend on a loaded rope will cause the core to snap. its best to use a pully. if you dont have a pully use 2 or 3 krabs so the bend aint so sharp. i just buy the right tool fer the task


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## Small Job Tim (Feb 4, 2009)

*thanks*

thanks for the heads up, I didn't think it was the smartest plan, but like i said, I've seen it done successfully many times.....doesn't mean i will use this method.
Is there anywhere cheaper than bailey's to get a decent block? How about a good price on a port-a-wrap?

Thanks all for the warnings.. 
- T. McD.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 4, 2009)

A lot of our lines don't have that much load on the core (if any); but i still agree about a sharp bend loaded, especially cranking around said sharp bend, as in lowering. As the inner part of the line becomes compressed, the outer becomes stretched around the tight bend. The stretched part of the line then becomes a region of fewer fibers, that carry all of the load, therefore they are leveraged to carry more load than usual on each strand, than there would be load per each strand from same load on a straight line that was load bearing evenly on all fibres. 

Being compressed, the inner part of the curved fibres would be carrying force, but not supporting load per se, for rope only supports inline pulls (because it only resists on that axis) and then only in the tension (stretch) direction on that axis (not compressed). This is why 2 slanted lines are leveraged, becasue only the inline/sine value is supporting, their across force/sine values cancel each other out (becasue there is no across ressitance, therefore no support by that factor). i know that sounds like gobley gook to some, but all we can do is present it a number of times, at a number of turns, for it to become familiar, and useable to you. But, it is how it all Worx... In flexible lines bent so, we might see breakage first on outside of curve; but in contrast; on stiffer lines might se breakage on inner / compressed part of curve.

If the line runs from ground, thru ring, then back towards ground, that is sharp bend(clsoed U), being cranked around ring(not as bad with same bend sitting still), ring bearing 2xLoad - frictions. But, if line runs around spar, then to ring, or comes down from higher up etc., then we don't have quite the doubling effect, have more load reducing frictions (load leg - frictions = control leg, then half their angle of spread gives the amount of force of that some total of both legs applied to ring). These scenarios also give less sharp bend to line. 

i do like the krab solution better, as they can be spread bend out to soften the bend, and also give less concentrated frictions, that then also too, have space between them to dissipate heat (as opposed to all heat concentrated in one point). Also, krabs can be installed and removed in the bight.


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## TreeTopKid (Feb 4, 2009)

Neither a pulley block or the largest Porta-wrap is that expensive. Think as well how it will look from your customers point of view. Did you spend all your money on Insurance?


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## treebilly (Feb 4, 2009)

The way I see it, A 120` of 5/8 line is about $100. Bull rope $180 - $250. A hundred bucks on a porta wrap or block that lasts a lifetime is cheap. Even if you are Part time, you need to look at your long time cost. That and one oops can and will probably be a lot more. I work full time for a company and do it on the "side". I carry a Million in insurance and still have the money to buy what I need for the job. The tool might not pay for itself on a single job but will be there forever


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## climberforlife (Feb 6, 2009)

Small Job Tim said:


> I have worked for a few tree companies over the past few years. I have seen the climbers using a rope to create a false crotch to catch limbs and tops. On the same note, I have seen the same rope/false crotch rig-up used instead of a port-a-wrap. (Note: no pulleys or hardwear, just rope). I know that this is not a good idea for heavy loads (especially with one ground man), but can I use this false crotch/false port-a-wrap combo for lowering lighter loads? Assuming I use the properly rated ropes for this, is it safe?
> I have seen it pulled off before, but now that the responsibility is on me, I would like to know if this is reasonable.
> 
> Thanks again everyone.
> ...



watch the rope burn


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## climberforlife (Feb 6, 2009)

watch the rope burn you can cut a rope in two if you dont set up right.


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## outofmytree (Feb 8, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> a hard bend on a loaded rope will cause the core to snap. its best to use a pully. if you dont have a pully use 2 or 3 krabs so the bend aint so sharp. i just buy the right tool fer the task



:agree2:


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## StihlRockin' (Feb 8, 2009)

The rope that is dynamic, moving, will not have as much friction damage as the rope that is static. It's entirely possible that if the load is heavy enough and the lower long enough, the rope can show obvious signs of friction burn with one use. Not good. Rope on rope is bad.

*Stihl*Rockin'


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## Tim'sTree (Feb 11, 2009)

treebilly said:


> The way I see it, A 120` of 5/8 line is about $100. Bull rope $180 - $250. A hundred bucks on a porta wrap or block that lasts a lifetime is cheap. Even if you are Part time, you need to look at your long time cost. That and one oops can and will probably be a lot more. I work full time for a company and do it on the "side". I carry a Million in insurance and still have the money to buy what I need for the job. The tool might not pay for itself on a single job but will be there forever



Is it the general consensus here that heavy-duty blocks and porta-wraps last a lifetime? (Assuming that WLL is not exceeded)


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## Small Job Tim (Feb 11, 2009)

*Got ya!*

Note taken....will be buying blocks and a portawrap this month....thanks for all the advice from everyone...much appreciated..
- T. McD.


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## TreeTopKid (Feb 11, 2009)

Small Job Tim said:


> Note taken....will be buying blocks and a portawrap this month....thanks for all the advice from everyone...much appreciated..
> - T. McD.



You won't regret it mate! You're life will get much easier!


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## smokechase II (Feb 11, 2009)

*Dang*

I thought this was gonna be another transvestite thread.


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## jomoco (Feb 11, 2009)

Small Job Tim said:


> I have worked for a few tree companies over the past few years. I have seen the climbers using a rope to create a false crotch to catch limbs and tops. On the same note, I have seen the same rope/false crotch rig-up used instead of a port-a-wrap. (Note: no pulleys or hardwear, just rope). I know that this is not a good idea for heavy loads (especially with one ground man), but can I use this false crotch/false port-a-wrap combo for lowering lighter loads? Assuming I use the properly rated ropes for this, is it safe?
> I have seen it pulled off before, but now that the responsibility is on me, I would like to know if this is reasonable.
> 
> Thanks again everyone.
> ...



What I believe you witnessed is an old school false crotch being used by an old school climber to catch tops and lower them to the ground.

And it works just fine on loads in the 2-300 pound range. The only thing that gets burned using the technique is your lanyard, and if it's an old school nyebuck linesman lanyard, it can take the abuse for quite a while before it needs to be replaced.

I would explain the technique in detail to you, but if it's not done right, and the lowered piece does not go where you want to put it, it can get nasty real quick.

You are better off and safer using a lowering block, and most climbers don't use old school nyebuck lanyards anymore. I know I've worn out about a dozen of them false crotching old school style in my career, and still do today if just a head or two needs to be caught and lowered.

It has to be tied just so or else.

The older climbers here should know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you want to learn it, learn it firsthand from a pro, and make sure you understand exactly how it works, and exactly how to rig it.

jomoco


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