# Descender



## Barry Stumps (Feb 25, 2007)

Hello, I have made most of my purchaces for biginning tree removal but need a descender and unsure which kind to buy. I have been looking at the Petzle Stop but says up to 12 mm and I have 1/2 inch rope which is 12.5 so would this still work? I am also looking for a pully for a 5/8 inch rope. Any ideas would be great. Thanks


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## Blinky (Feb 26, 2007)

I suppose the Petzl Stop is as good as any but I use a simple figure 8. With 1/2" rope it gives plenty of control, I use it with 11mm. If I'm concerned about being rendered unconscious while descending I have my footlock prusik to back it up. 

I'm not sure why the figure 8 is so maligned in the tree climbing community; I've used one to desend single rope and double rope on all kinds of vertical terrain without any problems. You don't want to go zinging down the line on any device and as long as you keep things slow and easy, an 8 will give you lots of smooth control.

I think the CMI Stainless 2 ton block handles 5/8" rope... it's a really nice block.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 26, 2007)

*Why???*

Being that you are just getting started out, why do you need a decender?

Blinky, I agree that the fig 8 gets a bad rap but has its place.

I use a gri-gri for decending a single line.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 26, 2007)

Barry Stumps said:


> I am also looking for a pully for a 5/8 inch rope. Any ideas would be great. Thanks



I like ther spring blocks because they have no pieces that can fall apart, and rounded edges if the rope sides loads at all.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 26, 2007)

Barry Stumps said:


> Hello, I have made most of my purchaces for biginning tree removal but need a descender and unsure which kind to buy. I have been looking at the Petzle Stop but says up to 12 mm and I have 1/2 inch rope which is 12.5 so would this still work? I am also looking for a pully for a 5/8 inch rope. Any ideas would be great. Thanks



I too like the stainless steel CMI pulleys, much less bulk than the aluminum blocks, plus, steel is tough in case it's dropped.

Are you decending on a doubled rope, a single rope, are you looking for a lanyard device, or how will you be using it?

The figure eight is pretty useless for most arborist applications.


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## Barry Stumps (Feb 26, 2007)

This will be for a single line. This is mostly if i dont want to take the time to use my spikes on the way down and just general climbing as a hobby that i am wanting to pick up. Thanks


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## osb_mail (Feb 26, 2007)

*spikes*

Spikes for hobby climbing hope your hobby climbing is only on telephone poles other wise you might rethink your set up . Maybe ascenders?? Instead of spikes I think the trees might like them a little better


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## Barry Stumps (Feb 26, 2007)

I guess that was worded wrong. I will be doing tree removal as a job and also on seperate non work related days Climbing rather caves or rock. Help this clears things up. I heard that the petzle descender is more rope friendly that the figure 8 not sure if that true.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 27, 2007)

If you want to see how a figure 8 works, try tying a munter hitch, they react very much the same and all you need is a carabiner. You will get twisting and hockling of the tail of the rope. Also, if you let go, you fall to the ground.

Some descenders will lock if you let go, which is nice, and the tend not to twist up the tail. 

For tree work, I just use a munter when I descend a single rope, which isn't that often, and seldom more than around 30 feet. In some parts of the world, or some climbing styles, long descents would warrant the use of a big expensive tool like a descender.


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## beowulf343 (Feb 27, 2007)

Get an AFS and descend DdRT.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 1, 2007)

I've used dozens and dozens of friction control devices for descent. I would dissuade you from a fig 8. Yes, they work, but there are better, lighter, smaller and even cheaper alternatives.

Friction control with a device, IMO, should allow you more versatility, control and security than using a hitch, otherwise you should just use a friction hitch. 

A device should allow the use of a single rope, or a doubled rope. In using a doubled rope it should allow you to either control _both parallel strands_ identically (1:1), or control one of the two lines (2:1) with the other end anchored to your saddle. This latter method is simply subbing the piece in for a traditional hitch to handle your friction.

Regardless, being able to choose interchangably betwen 1:1 SRT, 1:1 DRT and 2:1 DRT is really nice, whether from climb to climb, or within the same climb. EZ on, EZ off is critical IMO because you often need to re-route your line around something to accomodate you, as opposed to re-routing yourself to accomodate the line.

So far, this takes the GriGri and the Stop out of the equation. Surprisingly, a figure 8 can still accomplish all this, but it twists your line; two-fold in a 2:1 system, but even the twisting in a 1:1 method, it's still a PITA. There is a way to use certain 8's non-traditionally that won't twist the line, but it really depends on the 8 of which one will allow you to do that.

Climbing on 13 mm traditional arborist line will limit you from using just about every device out there. The fig 8 will still accomodate this, esp the rescue 8 with ears. Even some of our under 13 lines, like poison ivy and Fly will either not fit in a lot of the devices, or you have to work to stuff them in, making the overall process of climbing more work and less swift than it could be.

Moving on to true 11 mm line for climbing (and using 13 mm ropes for lowering) would be advisable if you want to enjoy tree care off a device, not just A device, but _*any* piece out there._

Last note. The word 'descender' gives the impression that it is for descending. Well, yes, but it certainly doesn't stop there. I like to refer to these pieces as _friction control devices_. Yes, you control friction while coming down, but you also control friction while moving around. In fact, you should best assume that while aloft, you need to be in control of friction 100% of the time, other than the times you are standing on a limb with the rope untensioned. ANY TIME you have tension on your climbing line, you must be in control of that tension, allowing yourself to hang stationary on the rope, or move down. This is true for hitch systems or mechanical systems. If you climb back up, you need to easily be able to pull rope back through the other direction (slack tend) to re-tension.

There are many devices that will allow you to do everything decribed above, all have certain nuances that are the performance differences between each other. Also, the ideal friction control device for tree climbing, since tree climbing on devices is still in it's infancy, has not yet been invented.

Does this help at all?


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## lync (Mar 1, 2007)

My 2 cents. Petzl I'D (the larger version ) is rated for rope 13.5 mm. Works super with arbormaster/samson climbing line. Easily transisions back to ascenders/srt. Its over $100 but you will only need to buy it once. One of the best purchases I've made.


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## DonnyO (Mar 1, 2007)

lync said:


> My 2 cents. Petzl I'D (the larger version ) is rated for rope 13.5 mm. Works super with arbormaster/samson climbing line. Easily transisions back to ascenders/srt. Its over $100 but you will only need to buy it once. One of the best purchases I've made.




IMHO the gri-gri is better because it locks around the rope...........


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## lync (Mar 1, 2007)

The I'D and the Gri gri attach to the rope in almost the exact same manner, they both work well But the gri gri isnt rated for rope 1/2 in diam, 13.5 mm. I own both and they are both excellent. the I'd has safety features that gri gri does not.


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## DonnyO (Mar 1, 2007)

lync said:


> The I'D and the Gri gri attach to the rope in almost the exact same manner, they both work well But the gri gri isnt rated for rope 1/2 in diam, 13.5 mm. I own both and they are both excellent. the I'd has safety features that gri gri does not.




good to know, I couldn't find an I'D when I bought my gri-gri


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## Barry Stumps (Mar 1, 2007)

Thanks to all post. I see the bennafits in most of these comments. Does anyone use the pezle stop with the 1/2 inch line or I think 12.5mm is the same. The Tree companion book says it good for lines up to 1/2 inch. It didn't say and including 1/2 inch so im not sure. I have the Sampson arbor rope if the brand will make a differance. Thanks again in advance.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 2, 2007)

The Petzl STOP is for ropes 9-12 mm. 1/2" 12.7 mm, but for the practical sake of a device, it's 13. You might be able to stuff the rope in the STOP. Just expect extra resistance in use. This will suck the life out of what you want, which is upper-end performance.

Here's the scoop on that and other questions, direct from Petzl.

Remember, Petzl caters to cavers first and rock climbers and search & rescue next. These are all SRT disciplines using 11 mm primarily. We adapt their gear to our needs, which is generally 13 mm DdRT. Other than the tons of gear we buy from them as an industry, they kinda otherwise scoff at our DdRT - 13mm hitch methods.

They only have two classes of descender (See below). There's a quasi-class in between that the rock and mountain climbing crowd favors, but they don't use it for climbing/descending; they use it as a belay device. Technically, what we do in the trees is self-belaying, so it stands to reason those cllasses of devices would work for us. Abseiling might just be a moment here and there, all day long. At the end of the time working aloft, you abseil out. True rappelling occupies only a fraction of the overall time that a treeguy would spend climbing doing pruning and deadwooding. 

*Self-braking decenders* speak to the tree climber who grew up on friction hitches, that's because that's what a friction hitch does- it self brakes. Take your hand off the hitch and weight the rope and the hitch locks down. Same for self-braking descenders; self-brakes. _And ascenders_ for that matter, do that, the difference being the descender does not live in permaent hard-lock as does the ascender. 

*Standard descenders*, you take your hand off and it will drop you like a rock. You use your hand as friction, as well as to place more rope pressure on the descender to enact more braking. With a standard descender you must manually put it into braking mode, or lock off. A good setup allows you both a soft lock and a hardlock, at an instant, on or off, left or right hand and without even looking As a tree climber, you live in the middle world between soft lock and hard lock with ascent and descent at either end and this is what allows us access to the outermost reaches of a tree canopy.


Friction control at this *easily achievable level* allows us to do what we do well, which is move around tree canopies mostly, and work-position for the moments when we rig and cut, or cable or do brace work. 

Dependable, consistent, predictable, precise secure control of _your_ rope on a _metal piece_ is not difficult to perform. It is, in fact, so easy that you should be able to control your entire range of movements aloft with only a thumb and finger. Your whole hand gets to manage the rope, however, because that's just what we do. The piece takes on almost all friction. Drop it into soft lock, you can hang suspended. Drop it into hard lock, you hang suspended, bombproof, and you're able to turn away, manage your flipline, saws, rigging, etc. Getting in and out of soft and hardlock is something you do somethimes hundreds of times a day working a big crown. How well a descender does all this is the mark of how useful it is, how well it allows you to climb for a living. if 100% of your income is derived from tree climbing, pruning and takedowns, how well you handle friction will have a profound effect on your paycheck. You control friction for a living. That ability is the foundation for confident and safe tree climbing. That's why we as tree climbers take it so seriously.

Does this help?


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## jmack (Mar 2, 2007)

Barry Stumps said:


> Hello, I have made most of my purchaces for biginning tree removal but need a descender and unsure which kind to buy. I have been looking at the Petzle Stop but says up to 12 mm and I have 1/2 inch rope which is 12.5 so would this still work? I am also looking for a pully for a 5/8 inch rope. Any ideas would be great. Thanks


 figure eight for desender 14-16 bucks, cmi rescue non stainless 30 - 40 bucks for your 5/8 if your rigging out wood and there's a chance the block will get crunched against the tree, i would say the buck or isc block that jp pictured


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 21, 2007)

For EVERYTHING you need to know about going up or down ropes:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml


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## Tree Machine (Mar 24, 2007)

I wish everything, but the descriptions don't go a whole lot into what it is that is most important to us; work positioning.

Any ascender will take you up. Any descender, belay device will take you down. It's that little sliver in between up and down, the realm in which tree climbers work (with chainsaws (aloft)). 100% control in this crossover area is what it's all about. How easily and predictable and securely you control up, down and especially in-between is the essence of being a climbing tree practitioner. When you have _complete dominance_ over friction, your confidence will become rock solid and you will understand the full joy of technical tree climbing. 

It is joy, and you get paid for it. Much incentive to get it right.


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## Fumbler (Mar 26, 2007)

Just curous, how many of you use/have used something like a Black Diamond ATC?
I was thinking of switching from my rescue 8 to one of those...

Tree Machine has put in some good comments, but if anyone else's used them for tree work could you please share your experience?


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## ATH (Mar 26, 2007)

Tree Machine, you have given some excellent information to consider. You have also left me wondering what you use for decending and/or work possitioning. So, what is your choice (or top 3 if you don't always reach for the same thing)?





Based on your comments, I'm guessing it is a friction hitch, but I'm curious...


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## Barry Stumps (Mar 26, 2007)

I'm sure i will hear about safety on this one and i probally don't have any business with it if i cant figure it out. I bought a large Petzl ID descender and i have the sampson 1/2 inch rope. It says good for up to 13 mill but cant figure out how to work the thing. It says when you let go the grab automatic stops you but when i hold the handle it stops and when i let go it would let me fall the opposite. I have tested it on ground level but cant figure it out or not yet. It looks like my rope is fed in right according to the pics. It says user friendly hmm.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 18, 2007)

Barry, I have not logged on for a while and I just saw your post. I use the Petzle Stop to descend on 1/2". I am mostly pruning hangers out of 80 to 100' clear stem (close growth) loblolly pine. I use the Stop for a quick ride down after the job is done. I was burning up 3/8" Stay Set (double braid) split tails and the Stop disipates the heat better. I also use it for a "Bail Out" on a single rope as I work my way down a top with spurs on a removal, thinking if I get stupid with the saw and take a cut I can get down quicker and easier than DdRT or spurs.

It works pretty well on my 1/2" Spearmint, Blue Streak, and Arborplex, but all my ropes are well broken in and the weave is pretty tight on them. It may be a tight fit for new rope. I tried it once on some 1/2" New England Static Kernmantle, and it did not work at all well - jammed up. It is a bit of a pain if you want to work it UP the rope even just a few inches (for instance to take up some slack); forget that, just take it off and move it up and re-thread it.

You and Tree Machine have me looking at the Petzl web site to see if I am violating any great safety standard, but the 1/2" 12 and 16 strand ropes I use seem to fit comfortably in the grooves, they dont touch the sides. My ride is firm and well controled, and the Stop doesn't get hot enough to burn my ropes. 

Did you figure out the I'D? I wish I had it instead of the Stop. I bought the Stop probably 10 years ago, I dont think they had the I'D for 1/2" at the time, or maybe I just overlooked it.


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## Barry Stumps (Apr 19, 2007)

Fireaxman, I have never really tried the petzle stop since i got it. I only have climbed a few tress around 3 feet or so and just used the blakes hitch to come down but really slow. I am still new to this and trying things out on the ground for the most part. I am not sure if i am going to sell it back on Ebay or not. The blakes hitch worked well though im not sure if I have the right rope for that. It is the (Samson Arbor-Plex is a light weight, high-strength 12-strand climbing line. Tough polyester jacket fibers surround polyolefin center fibers to maximize resistance to wear and fiber fusing. The workhorse of the industry. 12-strand polyester polyolefin construction. The best known, most widely used rigging line in the industry. ) This was a copy and paste of where i bought it. Do you think it is the right rope for this use?? Any help is appreciated. Thanks


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## Barry Stumps (Apr 19, 2007)

Sorry i meant 30 feet not 3 feet on climbing a tree, that would be a sight.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 19, 2007)

The Stop, and most other descending tools, are made for ropes less than 13mm. Any arbo rope that is measured at half inch is really over a half inch and will not work properly with these descenders. 

Too often people use tools that aren't compatible with the ropes they're using. This is asking for an accident.

You'll find that the I'd needs a load on it to function properly. When you're testing it on the ground be sure to lean back and put a bit of weight onto your rope. With low loads the I'd will be quite touchy and lock off easily.

Be sure to read this site:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

Most of your questions will be answered there.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 20, 2007)

Tom, you are absolutely right of course, and I should have known better. Using the STOP on my half inch was a bad habit I got away with for a while, but I see Bailey's has a good deal on the 7/16 Velocity. I'm going to get 150 feet of it to use with the STOP for my "Bail Out" line.

I checked the diameters on my lines just for the heck of it. As I said, they are all well broken in and the weave is pretty tight on them, but that was actually an additional strike against the arborplex for the STOP. The arborplex was squared off (as it is known to do), 15/32 on the flat side and 10/16 on the wide side. The wide side stayed down on the spindle of course, so using the STOP on the arborplex was an especially bad idea.

The Spearmint and the Blue Streak were both 17/32. I got away with using them, but it was still probably a bad idea. I did look at your link by the way, but things are pretty busy and I could not find exactly what I was looking for in the time I had available. Specificly, any warnings about using the STOP on 1/2". I did see the warning on using it for ropes less than 9mm, but that was a given. Makes it a "Sui-Slider". At least the way I was using it any failures were in the "Stop" (jammed up) mode, which did happen occasionaly with the Arbor-Plex.

Barry, I really like the Arbor-Plex for Blakes Hitch climbing and for the Martin Hitch I use most of the time now. I think it is ideal for starting out on. It's safe, and it's comparitively cheap of course, so you can get into the game for less money up front. Besides that I like the friction coefficient. It's easier to grasp for climbing and, maybe because it "Square's Off" a little, it provides more friction in a friction hitch. I think that makes it a little safer than the 16 strand ropes for new climbers. For production work, more friction means more work to move the hitch, so a lot of production climbers who provide their own equipment prefer 16 strand or more sophisticated ropes. But I notice most of the commercial outfits around here (where the "Boss" buys the equipment, not the climber) Arbor-Plex is still the most commonly used rope.

If you decide to sell your 1/2" I'D on E-bay, let me know. I'll bid. I do not want another STOP, but I'll use the one I have again WHEN I get the RIGHT ROPE for it.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 20, 2007)

I think you'll like the Velocity. The diameter is more compatible with the devices and it is firm, round and doesn't squash and flatten.


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## masiman (Apr 20, 2007)

Fireaxman said:


> Barry, I really like the Arbor-Plex for Blakes Hitch climbing and for the Martin Hitch I use most of the time now. I think it is ideal for starting out on. It's safe, and it's comparitively cheap of course, so you can get into the game for less money up front. Besides that I like the friction coefficient. It's easier to grasp for climbing and, maybe because it "Square's Off" a little, it provides more friction in a friction hitch. I think that makes it a little safer than the 16 strand ropes for new climbers. For production work, more friction means more work to move the hitch, so a lot of production climbers who provide their own equipment prefer 16 strand or more sophisticated ropes. But I notice most of the commercial outfits around here (where the "Boss" buys the equipment, not the climber) Arbor-Plex is still the most commonly used rope.



I just picked up an Arbor-Plex the other day from Sherrills. I found it to be too slick. So slick in fact that I could not get a hitch to bind on rope (blakes or prussik). This was an arbor-plex to arbor-plex setup. I was testing it out as a safety line in a non-split tail system. I thought maybe after it broke in it might start to grab, I'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime I ordered a True Blue. Should be here any day. Bailey's has the Arbor-Plex on sale, $59 for 120', $69 for 150'. Can't beat that.


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## gasman (Apr 20, 2007)

masiman said:


> I just picked up an Arbor-Plex the other day from Sherrills. I found it to be too slick. So slick in fact that I could not get a hitch to bind on rope (blakes or prussik). This was an arbor-plex to arbor-plex setup. I was testing it out as a safety line in a non-split tail system. I thought maybe after it broke in it might start to grab, I'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime I ordered a True Blue. Should be here any day. Bailey's has the Arbor-Plex on sale, $59 for 120', $69 for 150'. Can't beat that.



My arbor master was as slick as snot when I got it. It is made with a waxcoating that wears away. I dragged it around the back yard awhile and then it was much better for knot tying. Seems counter intuitinve to abuse rope, but there it is.


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## SRT-Tech (Apr 20, 2007)

best way to break in arbor plex is to wash it in LUKE warm water, and scrub the rope with a bristle nail brush. This removs all the coating left over from the manufacturing process, and you get a nice grippy rope.


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## masiman (Apr 20, 2007)

I'll try the washing and brushing suggestion first. Is it okay to do in the washing machine (without detergent I assume)?


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## SRT-Tech (Apr 20, 2007)

if you "must" use a washing machine......use a FRONT LOADER only....the paddles in a top loader can sometimes catch the rope and abrade it. Diasy chain the rope and put into a mesh sack, on the gentle/cold cycle.

I personally wash my ropes by hand, in the bathtub (yes i'm single - no wife or GF to nag me:biggrinbounce2 using LifeLine rope cleaner or a VERY mild shampoo like ivory for babies.


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## masiman (Apr 20, 2007)

SRT-Tech said:


> if you "must" use a washing machine......use a FRONT LOADER only....the paddles in a top loader can sometimes catch the rope and abrade it. Diasy chain the rope and put into a mesh sack, on the gentle/cold cycle.
> 
> I personally wash my ropes by hand, in the bathtub (yes i'm single - no wife or GF to nag me:biggrinbounce2 using LifeLine rope cleaner or a VERY mild shampoo like ivory for babies.



I have 4 kids under 8, so mild shampoo is in ample supply here. I'll just tell her I'm cleaning the kids tub and sneak the rope in there. She'll think I'm the best husband


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## Barry Stumps (Apr 20, 2007)

$195.95 
D20LG 
The I'D is primarily a particularly efficient and user-friendly descender. To descend simply pull on the handle while keeping hold of the rope, controlling the running of the rope by varying the grip on the free end. As soon as the handle is released, it locks. The large version is NFPA G rated to 1983-2006. 

Specs:
- Rope diameter: 11.5-13 mm 
- Weight: 530 g
- Construction: Anodized aluminum and stainless steel. Handle is made from nylon reinforced with glass fibers.
- Individually tested.
- Standards: CE EN 341 class A, NFPA G 

This is the piece that i bought. I seen some statements that the 1/2 inch rope was too big but this shows that it takes the up to 13 mill and and 1/2 is 12.7. This is probally why it cost so much more. The sampson 12 strand rope i have is slick but the knots works fine but then again I'm new at this so i don'know what to compare it to. I guess i should learn how to use it. Does anyone one know of a good book that i can by for tree trimming. I get allot of calls for this but refer them to someone else. I would like to learn though. Thanks


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## Tree Machine (Apr 21, 2007)

Barry Stumps said:


> $195.95
> D20LG
> The I'D is primarily a particularly efficient and user-friendly descender. To descend simply pull on the handle while keeping hold of the rope, controlling the running of the rope by varying the grip on the free end. As soon as the handle is released, it locks. The large version is NFPA G rated to 1983-2006.
> 
> ...


Weighs over a pound, costs 200 bucks, doesn't accept dual lines and takes two hands to work.

That knocks it out for me. However, it IS a good device. I think you'll find it serves you better if you climb single rope technique. Use a backed-up ascender for the trip up, switch over to the I'd and you should feel very secure.

They say you should use the handle with one hand and your other as a belay hand, but actually, that's just for when you're free-hanging or on rappell. If you're limb walking or just moving about the canopy with only part of your weight on the rope you should be able to just work the handle with one hand and keep your other hand free.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 21, 2007)

Sherrill has the large ID for $170. I see it as cheap as $165 in "another" catalog, but since that vendor doesn't support Arboristsite I wont mention them; but Sherrill has a price guarentee, so my bet is they will sell it to me for $165. Think I'll try them on it.

I went back to the Figure 8 for my work yesterday and backed it up by moving my Martin hitch to the right side D ring on my Buckingham Traverse. That worked surprisingly well most of the day, but on one occasion the Martin got hung up in a smear of pine sap and I had to re-tie it to get it loose. I had been using 4 wraps above the hitch on the Martin. I finished the day using 3 wraps above the hitch and did not have any further problems, in spite of increasing pine tar on the Arbor-Plex.

Spring, pretty good rains, trees are getting re-rooted after Katrina; sap is flowing like blood from an arterial wound on these loblollies this year.

Barry, if you could some how find a way to spend a day with an experienced climber familiar with modern equipment he could put you years ahead on your climbing skills. I was started by an "Old School" climber, and I've been pretty slow learning the new techniques off the web. Still, by the patience of people like Tree Machine, Tom, Spydie, Treeseer, and others on this site my production and safety are steadily improving. Thanks guys.


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## Barry Stumps (Apr 22, 2007)

Fire, I sub contracted an experienced climber for a couple of trim jobs today and he is going to start trimming for me. He said he would show me the ropes of the trade so things should get much more clearer with the hands on. I kind of got used to the Blakes hitch now so i probally will sell the large ID. I paid $170 brand new off Ebay and it is still un used so i guess i would take $150 for it. It goes for $200 at stores if anyone wants to buy it. If not i will just repost it back on Ebay. I have learned allot of things on this site and appreciate all the advice received.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 24, 2007)

Are you SURE you want to sell it? Dont know about you, but for me tree stuff is for buyin' , not sellin. If you ever get the opportunity to wreck a tall pine a "Bail Out" line makes a good secondary tie in, takes some stress off your flip line (waist / back) and puts it in your legs or butt strap, and keeps you tied in close to the tree for the "Ride" if the top swings enough to throw your spurs out. Not to mention providing a fast ride down if you get cut. 

I have tried DRT for this, but the doubled rope and friction hitch are twice as much to fool with, and they dont let me snug up to the tree as tight. A single rope and a descent device lets me snug up to the tree quick, tight, and easy and then work it down easily as I work the spar down, only one rope to fool with.

The guy who wrote the piece in the web site Tom recomended to us was pretty non-committal on the I'D, but it has a good feature that he recomends in his piece on backing up your descent - the "Panic" feature in that it stops you if you instinctively grab it too tightly in a fall (unlike the friction hitches, e.g. Blakes, wich just accelerate your descent the harder you grab them). He also said he has not fully tested it.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/RappelDevices.shtml

Looks like Petzl provides pretty good diagrams and instructions on how to use it at:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=205&Activite=10

look for “Technical Notice” on the left hand side and then “I’D Specific Notice”.

I have ordered one. I'll try to remember to post again here after I've had a chance to check it out.


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## moss (Apr 24, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> ...and takes two hands to work.



I don't know of any descender device that can be used one-handed, at least if you want "hands off stop" while you're descending.
-moss


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## Tom Dunlap (May 1, 2007)

In very other rope discipline this advice is not recommended. How come it is 'accpeted' by tree workers?

Quote: They say you should use the handle with one hand and your other as a belay hand, but actually, that's just for when you're free-hanging or on rappell. If you're limb walking or just moving about the canopy with only part of your weight on the rope you should be able to just work the handle with one hand and keep your other hand free.

Proper rapell techinique is to use a brake hand to backup any descent.


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## SRT-Tech (May 1, 2007)

because treeworkers seem to ignore basic rope access guidlines. Not all, but most (that i have seen).


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## Tree Machine (May 3, 2007)

moss said:


> I don't know of any descender device that can be used one-handed, at least if you want "hands off stop" while you're descending.
> -moss


That's interesting. I won't use a descent device that I can't work with one hand. You should be able to use it one-handed, left or right, and drop it into soft lock with one hand and do your micro-adjustments to your exact work position one-handed while in soft lock.

"hands off stop" while you're descending, in your terms, is letting go of the rope, you stop. In different terms it means going from self-belay to soft-lock (or hard lock) and _then_ letting go of the rope.

The one or two seconds to drop into soft lock becomes second nature. It is the 'price' you pay to gain the benefits of 1:1 rope work, whether doubled or single line.




Tom said:


> Proper rapell techinique is to use a brake hand to backup any descent.


Also, this is a very natural and intuitive way, but this is rappell, which is your full weight on the rope, and you're coming down. Self-belay is your movement around the crown, your weight partially on the rope, or not at all, while moving about and you pay out, or tend slack depending on whether you're moving away from or back toward your tie-in point.


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## Mitchell (May 30, 2007)

*gri gri*

for my 2 cents;

Anyone else have experiences using gri gri's. My disclamer; I am a fairly novice climber with only three years. Due to being involved in a large project locally setting up a zip line course, I have become frusterated with the basic blakes hitch as my mainstay. 
I was up and down ropes all day with drt and srt for weeks. After buying a gri gri and switching to samson's velocity I have been fairly happy. What made me switch was climbing free hanging ropes away from trunks. I found the gri gri would take up slake effortlesly with one hand. I found this aspect to help when walking back on a limb as well. 

It is a little jerky when using a natural crotch when coming down. The odd time it requires one to manually stuff the rope through it to keep it moving.
I also found I can use one hand with this device. 

I was interested to know if others have considered or tryed gri gri or similar devices and found them lacking.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 25, 2007)

Fireaxman said:


> I have ordered [a Petzl I'D]. I'll try to remember to post again here after I've had a chance to check it out.



As promised, I have a preliminary report. I received the I'D for 1/2" rope and the 11mm Velocity for the "Stop" and had a few hours to play with them last weekend. I have not had a chance yet to test the I'd out on a serious wrecking job yet but I am taking it up with me. Here is a preliminary report:

"Stop" on 11mm - WONDERFUL, smooth ride down, as fast as you want, on a good, firm, light rope. Disipates heat well. Tight, compact piece of equipment. Love it for the ride. BUT ... Hard (almost impossible) to take up slack in it if you move up the tree. You almost have to take it off the rope, move it up, and re-install it for any move up of more than a few inches.

I'D on 1/2" rope - big, clunky plastic thing. Actually rattles on the rope. Limits rate of descent. BUT ... you can body thrust with it going up the tree, so it it MUCH BETTER moving around in the tree. And, the safety feature of stopping your descent if you pull too hard on it works well - too well if you like a fast ride. Of course, it re-sets easily, so you can get moving again no big deal. And of course, it works on the 1/2" rope, which is what I have the most of.

So, the way it looks now, I think I'll be using the Stop for recreational climbing, and the I'D for work.


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## Mitchell (Jun 26, 2007)

*try a gri gri*



Fireaxman said:


> As promised, I have a preliminary report. I received the I'D for 1/2" rope and the 11mm Velocity for the "Stop" and had a few hours to play with them last weekend. I have not had a chance yet to test the I'd out on a serious wrecking job yet but I am taking it up with me. Here is a preliminary report:
> 
> "Stop" on 11mm - WONDERFUL, smooth ride down, as fast as you want, on a good, firm, light rope. Disipates heat well. Tight, compact piece of equipment. Love it for the ride. BUT ... Hard (almost impossible) to take up slack in it if you move up the tree. You almost have to take it off the rope, move it up, and re-install it for any move up of more than a few inches.
> 
> ...



just curious if you tried a gri gri in your evaluations and how you think it compares to the id and stop. As I previously posted i have been happy with the gri gri with velocity. One thing I don't like about the gri gri is the weight of the rope below pulls the rope through itself as one climbs upwards. I like to leave enouph working end to safety over a branch or trunk to facilate uncoupling my lanyard to bypass.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 26, 2007)

Mitch, I dont have a Gris Gris and dont have access to one, I would love to try it. The I'D and new rope busted me for right now, so I'll have to wait awhile to try it unless I get next to someone who has one. The ease in tending it during ascent that you talked about sounded like a big advantage to me the way I work, but it seems like you indicated it was a little sticky descending. I like to enjoy the ride down.


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## Mitchell (Jun 26, 2007)

*gri gri*

To bad we can't order everything in the cataloge! Mind you I paid 80 bucks canadian for it so it did not break the bank. The gri gri does slide decently when you get the feel for it, [and there is not to much friction on tip with DRt.] I hope to try the id soon as it sounds decent, although I heard from others that it can be sensitive and hard to keep in the sweet spot when decsending?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 26, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> One thing I don't like about the gri gri is the weight of the rope below pulls the rope through itself as one climbs upwards.


This should definitely be viewed as an advantage. Occasional 'self-tending' (this only happens when there is sufficient weight below to pull the slack) but frees you from a climbing life of forced tending.

As you know, you can overcome this advantageous dislike by simply grabbing the ropes above the device for those moments, keeping them static. If you want to be hands-free, clip a biner above and below the device, so the GriGri is in the bight. Remove when that move is over.

Good info, guys. This is really helpful stuff.


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## Mitchell (Jul 2, 2007)

*touche [spelling]*



Tree Machine said:


> This should definitely be viewed as an advantage. Occasional 'self-tending' (this only happens when there is sufficient weight below to pull the slack) but frees you from a climbing life of forced tending.
> 
> As you know, you can overcome this advantageous dislike by simply grabbing the ropes above the device for those moments, keeping them static. If you want to be hands-free, clip a biner above and below the device, so the GriGri is in the bight. Remove when that move is over.
> 
> Good info, guys. This is really helpful stuff.



good point tree machine had not looked at it that way. Great suggestion on capturing the gri gri in a beener to stop slip.
I often find myself when ascending using the gri gri with 5 feet or so of play terminated with a double 8 and beener for a second lanyard. with the weight of 60 feet or more of rope below it starts to pull the rope back through itself to the beener. Meaning I have to stop and re pull some slack out to secure myself when wanting to unclip my main flip to bypass. Minor PITA as I either kept the rope coiled on my person or drape loops over a lower branch to avoid creating to much weight. I think your suggestion will be the easiest yet
Scott


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