# topping trees good?



## Darin (May 16, 2001)

I wanted share this guys site with you. http://www.cuttree4u.com/ I think it should be cuttree4uwrongway.com He tops trees and then it says on the facts page that spikes dont hurt tree if you have the right guy using them. Please dont email this guy with hate mail. I am just posting an ignorance page. Scary this guy is out there preaching this isnt it?
Darin


----------



## treeclimber165 (May 16, 2001)

"Spikes do not hurt your tree if you have the right kind and someone who knows how to use them. Whoever invented bucket trucks probably started the rumor that spikes hurt your trees so they could eliminate the little man because they (the tree services that bought the trucks) had to make a killing in order to pay for the equipment. 
Now that you are enlightened about tree services, I hope you make the enlightened choice."
Who is this moron? I worked in an office with 2 bucket trucks, and we used them wisely. We made a lot of money using them, but we did it by improving our PRODUCTIVITY, not by "shortchanging the customer". Also, EVERY crew foreman was VERY adept at climbing without spikes! My buddy George did many removals without spikes, because he was more comfortable climbing without them! EVERY new climber STARTED climbing without spikes, and only got spikes AFTER becoming skilled at climbing without them. This idiot should be reported to every arborist association and municipality within his working area.
I'm sorry for ranting, but idiots like this piss me off. They give REAL tree trimmers a bad name.


----------



## Dave (May 16, 2001)

You might be a redneck if ........


----------



## Deere John (May 16, 2001)

The line I liked (#5) was how I was a drunk, and did not realize it, and worse, I kept it from my customers. Shame on me. Maybe this was what was behind my pleasant smile and smooooooth sales pitch that got me the work in the first place. 

Give-eth me-eth a break-eth, oh-eth holy-one-eth, I begg-eth.


----------



## treeclimber165 (May 16, 2001)

Since his page states that they "don't waste money on unnecessary expenses", I assume he means things like Lifelines, hardhats, earplugs, safety glasses and climbing gear. Which reminds me, maybe he might wanna look at that climbing belt for sale on e-bay. He could get a 'real deal' and pass the savings along to his customers!


----------



## Deere John (May 16, 2001)

"Savings" - pine caskets are cheaper than oak!


----------



## rbtree (May 16, 2001)

Here's a couple more doozies:

http://greenwoodtreeservice.homestead.com/index.html
These guys seem proud of their "hatracks". Don't seem to be much into PPE, among other things.

Then there is the guy who is trying to sell tree butchering franchises!!! http://www.topanddrop.ca.


See you guys found ole McPeak!! He's already been "harassed" via email by a bunch of us. Called me a stuffed shirt, he did!! Seems he isn't much for chippers, either!! Plus his rambling about firewood sales were a laugh.

Plenty more like them just about everywhere, unfortunately.


----------



## Dave (May 16, 2001)

I think I'll start selling firewood by the piece, placed in the customer's stove, at a dollar a stick.


----------



## Toddppm (May 16, 2001)

Never seen idiots so proud of their butchery. McPeaks already had an earful  I'll run into him one day, he works in my area along with a few hundred of his cousins from Culpepper, his ad says he works in MD too. there they will fine you for wearing spikes and topping, they even locked up one guy for repeated violations that was pretty cool.


----------



## Dave (May 16, 2001)

"The right kind of spikes"? Don Blair covered them in his excellent book- I think he called them Euc Man training spikes- regular climbers with the gaffs removed.


----------



## Darin (May 16, 2001)

I liked the pics of his jobs. http://greenwoodtreeservice.homestead.com/Job.html He must not have any because they are just drawings. Worse yet it drawings of topping a tree. Thanks Rbtree. Those were good. Actually, I couldnt get the topanddrop to load. The other one did and it was good.
Darin


----------



## UrbanEarth (May 21, 2001)

The guys over at the ISA Webboard already ran into this sight and went to town. Firstly, trying to educate him and then simply ranting about him and then finally, giving up on him. It is unbelievable how ignorant he chooses to be.

Alan


----------



## Darin (Aug 29, 2001)

I thought we would keep this thread rolling. These arent much, but they are on the list of known toppers, now. http://rickrivettstree.micronpcweb.com/
http://campostree.getwebnet.com/
http://members.aol.com/sunsetree/
http://redwoodtree.getwebnet.com/
http://www.puckettstree.qpg.com/ Cant even spell topping right
http://www.arkansasweb.com/treeservice/
http://www.navas.net/Dutchman/
http://www.glomex.com/trees/
http://www.capecod.net/liberty/contact_form.html
http://www.buggs.net/~twix/indexstmpb.html
http://www.langleytoday.com/fvts/
http://www.hetman.baweb.com/hetman.htm
http://www.experttree.org/


Found a bad pic at http://www.amarillopages.com/atreeservice/

Keep the bad list rolling. The way arboristsite is growing maybe these guys will find thereselves on here an change their ways. If not we can get a good laugh at the morons out there.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 29, 2001)

I did a quick search on Tree Topping

http://search.dogpile.com/texis/search?q="tree+topping"&geo=no&fs=web

Suprisingly most sites were decrying it.


----------



## treeclimber165 (Aug 29, 2001)

Hey Darin,
After a cursury look at the web site of urban tree care, I scribbled off a note to ISA and NAA. Just got a reply from ISA, and it seems that if we actually click on the link about tree topping, this guy actively explains why topping should NOT be done. I feel lower than a snake's belly about now.  I guess I should investigate a little further before jumping on someone in the future.


----------



## Darin (Aug 30, 2001)

I feel bad too Brian, I thought I checked my searches better. I erased urbantreecare from the list I had above. Many of the others you cant click on the tree topping link, so I would assume they do it. If they dont they should remove that misleading link.


----------



## Sudo Tsuga (Aug 31, 2001)

i like the cowboy hat the guy in the tree is wearing on amarillopages.com. now is that ANSI aproved ppe? or did bobby joe feel the sun was shinning too brite under all them leaves... oh wait...


----------



## monkeypuzzle (Aug 31, 2001)

Cowboy looks like a used car salesman.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 31, 2001)

There are white hardhats that are ANSI rated.

The real bad one is his Amigo on the rope!


----------



## Dave (Aug 31, 2001)

What's he gonna do when he pulls that chunk down on his sneakers?


----------



## treeclimber165 (Aug 31, 2001)

At least this guy at amarillo tree didn't waste too much money on his web site. He couldn't afford to put in his area code or location! Who the heck would contact him if they don't know where he works? Maybe that's a good thing!  

Good to see that he has 'BIG TREE' experience, too!


----------



## WillClimb (Sep 1, 2001)

*Topping*

While working on trees in Winston/Salem, NC recently, I was shown house after house after house with topped trees in the FRONT yards!! I couldn't believe it?!? I mean, it was like people thought it was a right of passage or something to just crop a full-sized oak or maple right down to the first crotch!

I was told it was the thing to do up there. And the trees that had regrown their canopies had the shape of cotton candy on a stick. Ugly! Like they were trying to copy Bradford Pears.
And the guy I was with refused to do it even though everbody was paying for it.

I will say one thing though, I have read that for VERY young trees (2-4 years), one topping (count it...1) can actually be good for them.
I would like to hear opinions on that if you have any.


----------



## treetrunk (Sep 1, 2001)

I find that quite interesting about 1 top. I`ve never heard that before but I imagine if you were planning to keep the tree to a small size, and reduced the top back lightly to a nice strong growth point, I dont think you would do a young tree much harm, although I would say definetly not conifers.


----------



## Treebeard (Sep 2, 2001)

I think topping is a control mindset thing. People feel in control of that big thing in the yard. In my opinion the only difference between a stump & a topped tree is about 10 feet. If you're gonna kill it do it right the first time. Topping is big business for some companies here in New Mexico. Obviously they can't be bothererd to read a modern tree book or attend a course.....they just "know" whats right. Topping is an archaic practice right up there with leeching to remove bad humors from humans or binding feet to get those cute little deformed things. I turn down work if they insist on topping & give out info on why it sucks every chance I get. The only way to stop it is for the good treefolks to educate.


----------



## Tim Walsh (Sep 2, 2001)

*Improper practices*

Darin et al, 

I have a started to contact as many of the site owners as I could from you "Bad" list. I have been as polite as I could be. If there were no email address for the company, I would contact the web designer to let them know that they had designed a page that was showing Z133.1 and A300 violations. 

Brian, I was the one who wrote you back about the site that was against topping, did someone from the ISA write to you to? 

This is a personal campaign of mine so I am not involving any of the associations that I belong to. 

Keep sending us the 'bad' sites. 

Thanks, 

TMW


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 3, 2001)

I think what you refer to as topping a yuon tree is called crown shaping. Where all the terminals are cut back to an even balled shape. I've seen the results and you get alot of tight branch angles and parallel branching. You do end up with a pretty uniform shape though. Shigo spend about half a page on it in Mod.Arb.


----------



## treetrunk (Sep 3, 2001)

We do a lot of crown shaping in the UK on street trees and in gardens, as a big problem here is people and councils always planting trees that eventually outgrow their intended space. Not the nicest of jobs, as the trees never look the same again, but at least its not topping, and if you take your time, you can sometimes make a poorly shaped tree a lot more aesthectically pleasing.


----------



## WillClimb (Sep 3, 2001)

Sanborn -
Are you talking about pollarding?


----------



## Toddppm (Sep 16, 2001)

Looks like our buddy McPeak has had at least a couple run-ins 
Check this link http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/dtcs/co...are,+and+tree+service)&detail=Y#legend_place2
Too bad it wasn't for shoddy work or improper pruning, I checked a bunch of the other ones, not a single complaint for improper work , but I did see a few co.'s that I know are hacks 
Amazingly most of the tree complaints are for companies at least 30+ miles from our county, now who would hire an out of town co. like that?Oh yeah........


----------



## Dave (Sep 17, 2001)

Now why do you suppose Harold doesn't have that page as a link on his website?????


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 17, 2001)

Will,

No pollardy is the cyclycal removal of sprouts from a head or knob which was developed by making a heading cut.

the shaping concept is to make cuts at the small end of a branch so that a very even form is acheived. But it is not done on a regular basis. Usualy it is a once off thing. Not exactly an A300 job.


----------



## WillClimb (Sep 18, 2001)

*Pollarding*

JPS -
Gotcha. 
Well, I've seen people do it with Sycamores before and I've always wondered: does the first cut of pollarding have to be made 'mid-branch' (between the nodes - is this what you mean by 'heading cut'?) or can it be made at a growth tip? 
I done it before on a Crape Myrtle by cutting back to an existing crotch for maybe three prunings, then cutting back to the next NEW crotch for two consecutive prunings, the next crotch for one, and then letting it grow on its own. It produces a nice branch structure but I've always wondered whether or not it's healthy. I know that in true pollarding, you cut back to the same node every time.
I'll bet that only certain trees can handle it well?

By the way, I've got Shigo's, "Tree Pruning" on order, which I'm sure will answer a lot of my questions.

Thanks - 
Will


----------



## treeclimber165 (Sep 18, 2001)

willclimb- Crepe Myrtles are the only tree I know of that I would use pollarding on. I'd not recommend trying it with Sycamores. If you don't want a big tree, don't plant a Sycamore!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 18, 2001)

Actualy sycamor is a rather comon pollard.

The few times I have done it I had free reign. There was nosize requirements. 

I have always cut back to a node less then 1 inch dia. Since the node is where a majority of latent buds are suposed to be I think it is the best place to cut.

I heading cut is one that is technicaly unable to suport the branch, weather mid stem or to a branch less then 1/3 the diamiter of the cut. Otherwise it is refered to as a thinning cut.

I have found that trees that do not compartmentalize well may not adapt to pallardy. I had som aspen that made it only 3 years. Though I did find out that the customer was hacking them in the summer. Added stress to the plant.

I have read that willow is a very comon pollard in the Netherlands. That does not compartmeentalize well at all. I want to try a white oak some day. Maybe a bur since they sprout readily (another criteria for pollarding).


----------



## ismyturnnow (Mar 8, 2005)

*Bet you never even thought about it*

Did ya ever notice that when lets say that whenever something is invented its great, but then someone else has an idea so the the original plan is wrong then? Huh? 
Have you ever noticed that if ya trim a tree and it lives for another 50 or 60 years and you used spikes over and over again through the years and the tree kept living, that it may be wrong to use spikes because the tree could have lived the same amount of time if you had used a ladder or lets say a bucket truck? Have you, honestly have you ever once seen a tree die from spiking. Well I'd like to answer that before I go on. I've been doing this a long time people and I have yet to see one tree die from spiking or become unhealthy from spiking. I have yet to see any tree I've topped die from spiking and Topping at the same time. Let me explain something and see if you (whoever) reads this can undersatnd it. People go to school and college to learn things and most are just dumb as bricks when it comes to common sense they have to be taught how to live. The point here is the most of you men read a book, took a course or was told about treework before you actually started doing it for yourself. So just because of how you were taught to do things that certain way, you all think that is the right way, but my friends trees (nature) will take care of themselves if not (scalped). Oh real quick I take trees (down) in maryland can't get me for that and thats another reason why alot of you don't spike its against the law where you work and/or you just take the easy way with a bucket. Oh I give treetrimmers bad names just because I don't follow your closely knit groups rules. I am my own person i don't need fellow so-called treemen to make me feel important. I do good work and I get paid for it and I get called back to do more work not because the trees have died from spiking or topping because the trees are living, looking good and healthy. I never pointed a finger at anyone and said they were drunk and doing treework I said most climbers are drinkers maybe not on the job but if they get drunk the night before they aren't steady the next day. Unnecessary expenses like $350,000 worth of equipment just so you can have your buddies in awe, and alot of you know what i'm talking about. In all honesty I have nothing against any of you as a person, but there is more than one way to skin a cat (fish) and not the only way you've learned. Happy Tree Trimming.
(HAROLD MCPEAK)


----------



## MasterBlaster (Mar 8, 2005)

Welcome to AS!


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 8, 2005)

http://arborist.************/attachment.php?attachmentid=21668&stc=1


----------



## Elmore (Mar 8, 2005)

*Pollarding*

The London plane, Platanus x hispanica, and common lime, Tilia x europaea are well known to be tolerant of pollarding. Other trees which respond to this treatment include some species of Acer, Alnus, Fraxinus, Liriodendron, Morus, Quercus, Ulmus.
When growing up along the coast, south of San Francisco, we kept a Platanus x acerifolia, a variety of London Plane tree, pollarded for many years. This method of pruning was used in the bay area extensively and is probably still a regularly used method. Our tree was maintained into a relatively small, ball shaped crown. This method can also be used on female Ginkgoes to reduce fruit.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Mar 8, 2005)

Okay, for fun, you ever tried a page like this...

Link Checker > stage one to trace a site 

Now, enter the letter code.

Then when and if results come up, click on the NUMBER under the name of a search engine or directory like Alta Vist, Yahoo, whatever, and it will show if a site is listed with anyone, maybe even personal sites. The number is in the table - likely a bit bolder.

You will even see this forum topic on Alta Vistas second page.

WHO LET THE DOGS OUT.....WHOOO...WHO.... WHO LET THE DOG'S OUT...WHOOO....WHO


----------



## Ryan Willock (Mar 8, 2005)

This is going to be interesting!!!


----------



## MasterBlaster (Mar 8, 2005)

Ryan Willock said:


> This is going to be interesting!!!



Ha! Probably not. :alien:


----------



## tophopper (Mar 8, 2005)

ill bite, Ive seen several trees die from being spiked. It is not ill-legal here to wear them to prune, but unethical yes. I have no bucket truck, and no fleet of 350k equipment in use to awe my friends. 
Plain and simple- guys who top and spike trims are just lazy or uneducated. 
When I began climbing I topped and spiked out of ignorance, then i learned the proper way, and am glad I did. Wearing spikes sucks anyway, would rather do without.

Im also willing to bet that myself and 75% of climbers here can climb circles around guys wearing spikes, and do a better job.
Im sure my words here wont change your opinion, but thats ok because you, Mr. Mcpeak(if thats really you) are not even on the same playing field as us good arborists, we are working for a whole different market than you. 
The clients that keep calling you back to butcher their trees can have you, we want quality clients and provide quality work, we can only hope that someday you'll change your ways, but if not the demand for proper work will phase you out of business. 

nuff said


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 8, 2005)

We went around and around with Mc Bubba a few years ago. He probably Googled himself and found a link to here 

I wonder if good Harry will come back and read any of the responces. Since he does not want to learn anything, becasue he allready knows all there is to know. I'm not sure if it's worth it to go over everything agian.

I've have seen trees that survived topping and gaffing, and I have seen trees with bad pockets of decay and cankers associated with them.

So Harry, if your interested in a frank discussion on tree physiology, from a tree climber who cannot use a bucket, does not get drunk the night before work ( rarely have more then 2 beers a night) started climbing trees the started reading about them.. well I'm willing and able.


----------



## spacemule (Mar 8, 2005)

ismyturnnow said:


> Did ya ever notice that when lets say that whenever something is invented its great, but then someone else has an idea so the the original plan is wrong then? Huh?
> Have you ever noticed that if ya trim a tree and it lives for another 50 or 60 years and you used spikes over and over again through the years and the tree kept living, that it may be wrong to use spikes because the tree could have lived the same amount of time if you had used a ladder or lets say a bucket truck? Have you, honestly have you ever once seen a tree die from spiking. Well I'd like to answer that before I go on. I've been doing this a long time people and I have yet to see one tree die from spiking or become unhealthy from spiking. I have yet to see any tree I've topped die from spiking and Topping at the same time. Let me explain something and see if you (whoever) reads this can undersatnd it. People go to school and college to learn things and most are just dumb as bricks when it comes to common sense they have to be taught how to live. The point here is the most of you men read a book, took a course or was told about treework before you actually started doing it for yourself. So just because of how you were taught to do things that certain way, you all think that is the right way, but my friends trees (nature) will take care of themselves if not (scalped). Oh real quick I take trees (down) in maryland can't get me for that and thats another reason why alot of you don't spike its against the law where you work and/or you just take the easy way with a bucket. Oh I give treetrimmers bad names just because I don't follow your closely knit groups rules. I am my own person i don't need fellow so-called treemen to make me feel important. I do good work and I get paid for it and I get called back to do more work not because the trees have died from spiking or topping because the trees are living, looking good and healthy. I never pointed a finger at anyone and said they were drunk and doing treework I said most climbers are drinkers maybe not on the job but if they get drunk the night before they aren't steady the next day. Unnecessary expenses like $350,000 worth of equipment just so you can have your buddies in awe, and alot of you know what i'm talking about. In all honesty I have nothing against any of you as a person, but there is more than one way to skin a cat (fish) and not the only way you've learned. Happy Tree Trimming.
> (HAROLD MCPEAK)


I want my 30 seconds back!


----------



## Matt Follett (Mar 8, 2005)

*If it's really you...*

Harold. 

I understand where you are coming from, however; the issue of topping and spiking goes far beyond what is visible to the eye. And far beyond what a few lucky individuals whom have witnessed 50 years or so of personal observation. 

First, have I ever seen a tree die from topping? Yes, several in fact, even in my short time in the business. (There is one such once beautiful silver maple near a Victorian house just down the street that makes me sick every time I drive buy.) The resulting loss of photosynthetic potential means the tree uses up an incredible amount of stored resources to try to "rebuild" often either shutting the tree down outright, or putting it in a "spiral of decline" weakening its defenses until it is overcome by multiple pathogens and/or insects. Further to this, and perhaps more important in the realm of our current legal systems are the ones that need removing because they were topped. Decay has overtaken them and shortened their useful lives. The resulted weakening of the structural portions of the tree has put the surrounding environment at risk, and the tree must be taken down to mitigate the risk. 

Does spiking kill trees; well you might be right there, as the simple act of spiking up the tree would likely not ever kill it. However if you are familiar with tree biology, and the inability for trees to repair damaged tissue, combined with Shigo's model know as CODIT, you will realize that the spiking wound you leave today will never be repaired, and can open the entire tree (that which is present at the time you place spike through cork cambium) to pathogen attack. Ah but trees do have defenses so it is unlikely that the spiking wound will kill. However (yet again) the combined effect of the loss of photosynthetic resources, (from the topping or overpruning) and the now multiple wounds throughout the trees structure will most likely begin the tree on a slow decline, and years if not decades before its genetically typical decline, Somebody like me will have to tell the homeowner that the beautiful, albeit structurally compromised tree over their garage should come down. 

Long after you’re gone!

Harold science can teach us a lot, so can books, so can life.. I started doing this the wrong way. Reading, experiencing, school and keeping an open mind has at least opened my eyes to what is potentially right, and what is definitely wrong.

P.S. if it's not Harold... man I just wasted some serious time typing!


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 8, 2005)

A tree is not a rock, especially the outer layers.

i think trees around people are stressed generally. Any form of life approached with a chainsaw has reason to worry. Driving spikes in trees is bad stress management, and continues the drain on resources as the wounds seal for years with stuff harder to produce for the tree than normal wood. Telling someone that you are gonna charge for doing something positive to tree, then driving spikes in it to top it; might be a different type of crime. Especially when it is unnecessary, unsightly; let alone bioologically incorrect to any life form. No matter how ya look at it, it isn't neutral, and it isn't good for the tree; then it must be bad. A spike wound is a tattered wound also, we should always aavoid tattered, ripping wounds. Should be clean, no disrupted fibre cuts, almost glazed across; no fibre disruption in cuts. That is why we pre and finish cut ( i hope that isn't being questioned). Then it follows none from spikes either.

i've seen to much damage and distortion to wood from topping cuts, even the politically correct type to 'argue' that one. Especially of the no branch collar type. All i can figure is the atmosphere is different on that other planet!

Edit: i see no waste in that collection of thoughts Matt.


----------



## Matt Follett (Mar 8, 2005)

> Any form of life approached with a chainsaw has reason to worry.



That is perfect! I truly love it Spydie, I request permission to quote it further on in life.

edit for the miseplelled truley


----------



## glens (Mar 8, 2005)

In my whole life I have <i>never</i> seen a proton smashing into a plutonium atom and cause it to create a cataclysmic chain reaction.&nbsp; I don't believe it's true.&nbsp; All these high-falutin scientists have too much book knowledge and not enough street smarts.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Mar 8, 2005)

Matt Follett said:


> That is perfect! I truley love it Spydie, I request permission to quote it further on in life.


Excellent post!


----------



## JJackson (Mar 8, 2005)

Love the answer Glens. Topping does kill trees I work for utilities and we top when we cant remove a tree under the lines for cearance, we have killed a number of trees. Crown reduction can't be performed on a pine, only topping. Spikes do damage to trees, just look at the resulting scars. There're ways to climb into a tree without spikes or a bucket, all the guys that work with me do it on a daily basis. I thought good busnisses strive to go the work right. This guy is a little to stuck on all those guys with all the shinny new equipment to realize that modern arbiculture is the best out there.


----------



## clearance (Mar 8, 2005)

JJ-the Davey utility guys up here all climb with spurs. All utility guys here climb with spurs. Clearance-not appearance, keep the power on!!!


----------



## JJackson (Mar 8, 2005)

Clearance, we do not have any davey climbers here, The utility and 2 other major contractors do. We just provide foresters (3 of us in the northeast portion of the state) to plan and obtain the work. The utiliy only uses spurs on dead and things that cant wait. I do love clearance not appearance, unfortunatly it would easier if we could always have both but I will take clearance other appearance anyday.


----------



## clearance (Mar 8, 2005)

Thanks JJ, I'm a certified utility arborist and I love trees especially conifers, but I wish the public understood why the powerline is more important than the life or look of any tree.


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 8, 2005)

Matt Follett said:


> That is perfect! I truly love it Spydie, I request permission to quote it further on in life...




You have to ask Darin  

If that McPeak post was genuine, the author should consider the difference between human time and tree time. You may not live to see the damage done. Does that mean it's not important?

That's like saying smoking cigarettes doesn't cause damage to humans.

love
nick


----------



## alanarbor (Mar 8, 2005)

clearance said:


> Thanks JJ, I'm a certified utility arborist and I love trees especially conifers, but I wish the public understood why the powerline is more important than the life or look of any tree.



They understand as soon as the lights go out!

But one thing I wish I could say to people when they gripe about powerline pruning, would be to defend the utility saying that they pruned to natural targets, directionally pruned, or made proper cuts as best they could within the scope of their work which is clearance.

But what do I see? Stubs! Flush Cuts! branches that could have been cleanly pruned with hydraulic loppers, ripped, torn and split with a dull stick saw. Hangers and broken branches constantly left. 

Maybe it's not so bad in other areas, but the quality and absolute lack of caring here is terrible.

And let me say this: the property owners and landscapers share a good part of the blame planting trees where they don't belong!


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 8, 2005)

clearance said:


> ... the powerline is more important than the life or look of any tree.



I whole heartedly disagree. In many scenarios the trees have to be cut, but to say that the powerline is more important than ANY tree...simply is an over-generalization.

I know you have a job to do, but so do the tree huggers!  

Seriously, though. Think about it. Any tree? Think about all the famous trees. Do you think you could just start hacking up the Angel Oak because it's limbs are getting close to the lines? I bet you'd be met with a bit of resistance if you attempted to do that.

love
nick


----------



## MasterBlaster (Mar 8, 2005)

They should both be working together whenever possible.


----------



## DDM (Mar 8, 2005)

His Facts Page is Humorous............  Would those be Facts? No I think oppinions....... :blob5:


----------



## clearance (Mar 8, 2005)

Nick-I don't know about the angel tree, how many board feet are in it? We get a lot of resistance anyways, even cycle pruning, never mind cutting down hazard trees. Sometimes, if I'm in a good mood when people ask/????? about what we are doing I say "You are so right sir/maam, in the more civilized european countries the lines are buried" Alan-here we have to adhere to proper pruning techniques, or the utility will complain. The days of stubs are past.


----------



## alanarbor (Mar 8, 2005)

clearance said:


> Alan-here we have to adhere to proper pruning techniques, or the utility will complain. The days of stubs are past.



Not round these heeya parts!


----------



## NickfromWI (Mar 8, 2005)

I am just anti-line, in a sense. I would love it if all lines were buried.

These sentiments come from my roots as a photographer. I can't think about how many photos have been ruined by unsightly powerlines.

Bury 'em all!

love
nick


----------



## tophopper (Mar 8, 2005)

clearance said:


> Nick-I don't know about the angel tree, how many board feet are in it?




ha - what a reply


----------



## clearance (Mar 9, 2005)

Tophopper-I thought that was a pretty good line, spur of the moment. Here are some you could try on your clients- "yeah, those are nice looking trees, look a whole lot better on the back of a logging truck" or " yeah, nice trees but their not making any money just standining there" or the standard "log it, burn it, pave it" or my favorite " earth first-we'll log the other planets later" C'mon, theres always more trees.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 9, 2005)

clearance said:


> C'mon, theres always more trees.



It takes 100 years to grow a hundered year old tree.

If you cut all the 100 year old trees, you'll never have any 200 year old trees.


----------



## Koa Man (Mar 9, 2005)

Re topping kills trees, Kaimuki High School in Honolulu lost 9 large banyan trees that were topped several years ago. The heavy topping was the specs issued by the State of Hawaii DOE for bidding! They wanted a 50% size reduction done in one "trimming". There was a big uproar about it, since the large banyans were like a monument of the school. The State said they did not think anything could kill a banyan. Even a light topping will kill most arborvitaes and a lot of cypress. Although most trees in Hawaii will survive even a topping at ground level, a few species will die and I have seen many over the past 20 years.

BTW, Alex Shigo a few years ago said we have excellent line clearance work here. I agree, most cuts are made properly.


----------



## Matt Follett (Mar 9, 2005)

To play devils advocate Dan... and support Nick and my own personal thoughts... how many people have been killed or injured when overhead lines come down, poles hit by cars... ice storms etc... (I won't say tree limbs falling on lines out loud.. oops.. ammo for Clearance)

I'm sure high voltage transmission lines are cheaper above ground, but maybe not.. and the risks associated with living within proximity... hummm...

It is possible to build underground systems and make them work.. it's being done all over the place... it's just easier in pre-existing areas to put them on poles. I would love to see a twenty-thirty year study done by an *outside* auditor of overhead vs. underground installation and maintenance costs.

We have digressed of topic here I believe, but one thing has come out of it... complaints of clearance contractors and the quality of work done in maintaining the required set-backs... I do not have a lot of clearance experience, some, but it is far from my major... However, I would say two things regarding poor quality work, primarily I think it can be blamed on the service provider, rather then the contractor... sure they are the ones doing the work, but if it's not up to par... "Corrections", hold back of pay, loss of contract, it's not that hard. The bids are generally (around here) awarded to lowest qualified bidder, well if X tree company didn't perform last time because they were taking short cuts to get the contract finished, they are no longer "qualified” then eventually contactors would get the picture. 

The utility contractors need to enforce harder, it can be done, and the pruning can be done right.... oh yeah and STOP PLANTING SILVER MAPLES UNDER EXSITING WIRES!


----------



## VTMechEng (Mar 9, 2005)

I can't believe this Mchackandkill in Northern Virginia, where I am from and work. We have always made fun of them but this guy is more then we had even joked about. I always wondered who topped all the trees we had to remove due to hazard conditions, but now I know. There really needs to be a way for companies like this to be stopped but I guess we will have to settle for them dying out. Untill then I will keep getting paid for removing and cleaning up thier hack jobs as best I can. Thank you ISA for showing us how things should really be done.


----------



## alanarbor (Mar 9, 2005)

It's the double edged sword of freedom. 

Since there exists no gov't requirements to hang out your sign, and offer tree services, we have a huge preponderance of unqualified, and incompetent people out there. On the flip side how many of you started out from scratch not knowing squat, and clawed your way to the top through a passion for your work? Would you have chosen this line of work if the gov't required you to take so many hours of courses and pass a bunch of tests before you were allowed to do it?


----------



## VTMechEng (Mar 9, 2005)

alanarbor: I agree that everyone has to start somewhere and I love taking people out climbing for the first time. What I do have a problem with is a refusal to learn! It is important to keep learning in all we do and to keep our minds open to new ideas, even if they mean what we have been doing is wrong. Ignorence is not an excuse once the truth has been put right in front of your face.


----------



## rb_in_va (Mar 9, 2005)

From the firewood section of McPeak's website:

Firewood

(sorry gas has skyrocketed)

am forced to raise prices a little all because of (Bush)


----------



## ismyturnnow (Mar 9, 2005)

Once again you guys aren't listening to anything other than what you are taught, heard or go along with just to be in a group or inner circle of friends. Trees that were topped, spiked or had anything done to them a hundred years ago that is different than the way you guys do things today are still living, whats the scientific evaluation for that? I have nothing more to say to any of you. You are more less brainwashed by the so-called experts (people who came up with a way to get rich by not actually working) that it is pathetic. If I say, If, you guys are so worried about trees get out of the freakin business because you wouldn't be (cutting and or SAVING trees haha) if you weren't getting paid. Just one more thing you do your thing and I'll do mine still no hard feelings just can't understand why someone always and I mean always has a scientific explanation for everything. GOOD LUCK ! and yes I am------------------------>HAROLD McPEAK


----------



## Matt Follett (Mar 9, 2005)

Mc Peak, you make me laugh.. oh by the way , don't sail too far from shore, you might fall of the edge of the world


----------



## tophopper (Mar 9, 2005)

ismyturnnow said:


> Once again you guys aren't listening to anything other than what you are taught, heard or go along with just to be in a group or inner circle of friends. Trees that were topped, spiked or had anything done to them a hundred years ago that is different than the way you guys do things today are still living, whats the scientific evaluation for that? I have nothing more to say to any of you. You are more less brainwashed by the so-called experts (people who came up with a way to get rich by not actually working) that it is pathetic. If I say, If, you guys are so worried about trees get out of the freakin business because you wouldn't be (cutting and or SAVING trees haha) if you weren't getting paid. Just one more thing you do your thing and I'll do mine still no hard feelings just can't understand why someone always and I mean always has a scientific explanation for everything. GOOD LUCK ! and yes I am------------------------>HAROLD McPEAK





what a joke


----------



## WillClimb (Mar 9, 2005)

ismyturnnow:

yeah, i've seen many trees die from topping and spiking. if they didn't die directly from it, then they died from the huge entrance holes left for pests and disease. i've seen many borer infestations enter through spike holes. i've seen huge leaders break off of trees in storms where someone had topped the tree and it never healed solidily. i've also seen gorgeous trees that were near picture perfect, except for the freakin' ugly spike marks crawling up the tree.

has every tree that i've seen spiked or topped die?...no. but when someone has a prized tree that's worth good $$, you don't take the chance.

as for the bucket trucks, i'd like one but can't afford it just yet. what do we do? well, you throw a rope up in the tree, attach it to your saddle with this really cool knot and you pull your butt up in the tree like a man. let me tell you, it's a lot harder than with spikes. spikes for pruning is the "simple man's" easy way out.

and that's all i got to say about that, Jenny


----------



## jason j ladue (Mar 9, 2005)

i like this guy. harrold, i hope you keep posting. this is what I call entertainment... and who knows, you might even learn a thing or two. dont get me wrong now. i dont mean to stand in judgement of your methodology. but this a very interesting site; and it is refreshing to see the troops so riled up over something other than a personal attack or other form of negativity...


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 9, 2005)

Of course Matt, especially anything for the cause.

i've seen stretches on the topside of vertical spars mottled and abused with the traffic of climbers over the years; there is no other form of life you do that to, and say you are helping it. Everything has a boundary against outside invasion, that is best not violated. The sealing and production of the more specialized callousing is a distraction to the plant resources, from other functions. The tree already has to deal with whatever wound the chainsaw will make, and the loss of productive tissue! This is all part of the total stress load. At wounding by saw, the tree must use more resources, but has less by what was removed. Every wound including spikes, adding to the load. It is simply, not best.

The better doctor will do what must be done, with minimal if any damage, to any other parts, as state of the art. Anything less, is less. All cuts, and violations that must be made, should be clean, sharp cuts. A spike driven in is more of a tattered wound/ tear spreading fibers apart.


----------



## clearance (Mar 9, 2005)

WillClimb-Simple man here, nice what you had to say about spurs but I love it when spurless climbers tell the truth about how hard it is to spurless climb. I always thought it was a difficult way to climb but you and Redbull have confirmed it. "Pull yourself up like a man", are you saying that climbing with spurs is unmanly? I walk up the tree with my spurs, shoulders squared, upright, very manly and debonair. One handing my saw and pushing off big tops with my other hand. Manly enough to take all the sh%t and abuse from you and your ilk. Cheers.


----------



## glens (Mar 9, 2005)

You're running this into the ground.&nbsp; Can't you simply admit that not every takedown requires spurs?


----------



## Ny finest (Mar 10, 2005)

I do removals without spurs just to get ex. points for my trims


----------



## glens (Mar 10, 2005)

I just had a thought.&nbsp; Maybe Mr. McPeak isn't talking about topping trees the same way "we" are.&nbsp; Don't forget, he's outside the "educated elite" group and could very well be using the terms entirely differently than we are.

<tt>:</tt><tt>)</tt>


----------



## Ny finest (Mar 10, 2005)

Like topping equals removals?!!Everything onTOP of the ground??!!


----------



## VTMechEng (Mar 10, 2005)

Mr. McPeak: Just for the record I do not use spikes or a bucket truck. Don't call someone lazy untill you know exactly what they do and how they do it, trust me that my way takes a lot more skill also. Ignorance and over-generalization, the double threat.


----------



## 056 kid (Mar 10, 2005)

i have never seen a tree die from spikes.


----------



## Koa Man (Mar 10, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> I use ladders quite often and I've used them to get up the first 25ft. of larger trees.



Ladders are good. I take a 12 ft. section of an old extension ladder out to almost every tree I climb. It is real easy to carry and the amount of time and energy it saves is huge. Way faster than even spiking to the first lateral. Told a climber friend with 25 years experience to take a ladder with him and even gave him a ladder section. He now refuses to go to work with out it. He couldn't believe he was struggling to get up the first 10 ft. all these years.


----------



## treeseer (Mar 10, 2005)

"i have never seen a tree die from spikes."

I have--read this *** :

A TALE OF TWO OAK TREES

Lightning struck twice in Wake County, NC last year, and two big oak trees bore the brunt. What happened next tells a tale of Scrooge-like assumptions, and how Great Expectations can go awry.

A white oak grew in an undisturbed area. The blast had torn off a spiraling streak of bark from top to bottom. The arborist saw that the open wound was no more than 12” wide, and tapped the bark on either side of the wound with his rubber mallet to see how much more had been detached from the wood.

The total bark damage at the bottom indicated the tree might be saveable, so the next step was an aerial inspection. He climbed to the top and trimmed away (“traced”) the torn bark on the edges of the wound on his way down. Bark that was sound, yet detached, was stapled back to the wood so it might readhere, shrinking the infection court. The roots on the blasted side were inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi and fertilized.

The tree was nominated for an award in the Meritorious category by a member of the Capital Trees Program. The registered forester who came out to inspect it said “Bah, Humbug!” Nominated trees must be in good condition to receive an award, and the forester assumed all lightning-blasted trees are rendered useless.

Nevertheless, treatment went forward. The arborist removed two of the damaged lead branches from the crown. He sprayed exposed xylem with eucalyptus oil to repel opportunistic woodboring insects. Over 2” of scar tissue has grown over the wound in one season, and the oak leafed out fully next spring. Well on its way to recovery, it was finally granted a Meritorious Award. During the second growing season the callus thickened remarkably and closed over up to two more inches of the xylem. The wood was sprayed once more with botanical repellent.

The second oak majestically defined the edge of the historic district in Fuquay-Varina. Two years before, the Capital Trees Program had given it an Historic Tree Award. Scant lawn in full sun covered half the root system, and little of the rest was mulched. The lightning damage seemed just slightly wider than the first, so the arborist started treating the wound as before.

***Below some old pruning cuts halfway down, a portion of bark over 4’ square was detached. Curiously, it wasn’t near the lightning wound! Insects had entered wounds made by climbing spikes and eaten away the cambium. That climber must have dug in his spikes to keep his balance as he cut, with Great Expectations that those little holes couldn’t possibly hurt that great big tree. Aggravating this injury was the bare ground underneath. Oaks being ring-porous, the roots that were needed to help repair this damaged side of the tree had too many problems of their own to perform that function.

Added to the lightning wound, this human-made injury put the total dead bark area over one-third of the circumference. Despite insect control, fertilization, and, belatedly, mulch, the prognosis was poor. Little scar tissue grows, and half the crown is pale. The tree’s useful years were over, clearly due to the use of climbing spikes and root abuse. ***

Lightning may someday inflict a Twist-ed scar on your trees, but you can keep storms, disease and insects from picking your urban forest’s pocket. A healthy root environment below organic groundcover costs less than a cup of gruel. The tree provides it for free when it sheds its leaves. That, and lack of damage above the ground, can keep your trees growing great Lightning may scare the Dickens out of you, but it’s nothing to lose all your trees over.


----------



## JonnyHart (Mar 10, 2005)

I mentioned this in a thread awhile ago. I think I killed an oak with my spikes. We went to a job to remove a mid size dead pin oak( about 60'). I removed the tree with my spurs on. Than the owner asks me to trim a smaller pin oak on his front lawn, (this was before I came upon this arboristsite, I now realize I could easily have done the trim without spikes) so I spiked up the 25 feet or so and did what he asked, just get it away from the house a bit. Not even two months later, we returned to the mans house to remove the tree I trimmed because it was dead. I couldn't help but feel very guilty. My theory is that I spread infection from the dead removal to the live trim by either my spikes or saw, or both. I'm not too informed about "sudden oak death", but this seemed pretty sudden to me.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 11, 2005)

More then likely it was oak wilt transfered via root graft, the pin was infected before you got on site.

But I'm glad you learned a lesson.


----------



## treeseer (Mar 11, 2005)

JPS, if it was wilt, couldn't that have been spread by spikes? 

Yer letting him off the hook (harhar) for past mistakes too easy.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 11, 2005)

Maybe it's possible for a medium sized tree, but 8 weeks is a pretty short time fro innoculation to total system failure.

Tough I think he got the point.


----------



## JonnyHart (Mar 11, 2005)

I'm not making this up man. All the leaves were brown and dry. Had to be july or august. All the other trees were nice and green. The company I worked for at the time did not do fertilizing or chemical applications, maybe it could have been saved.


----------



## jason j ladue (Mar 12, 2005)

glens said:


> I just had a thought.&nbsp; Maybe Mr. McPeak isn't talking about topping trees the same way "we" are.&nbsp; Don't forget, he's outside the "educated elite" group and could very well be using the terms entirely differently than we are.
> 
> <tt>:</tt><tt>)</tt>


excellent.


----------



## NeTree (Mar 12, 2005)

I can't believe you guys granted McIdiot this much exposure. 

Harry, nice to see your head's still stuck up your ass. It makes us look even better.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 12, 2005)

So when did get taken out of the forbidden words? 

For me it was as much for the general discussion as anything else. I did not think Good Harry would have come back.


----------



## NeTree (Mar 12, 2005)

I think it had something to do with not being able to say grass, brass, lass, assorted, etc.


----------

