# Bore cut felling?



## komatsuvarna

Any body got a video or good pictures of a bore cut. Ive read alot and still dont understand part of it. Do you drive the wedge in both sides of the bore cut or in the back cut? Do you make the face cut before the bore cut? I probably wont ever need it just cuttin firewood, but id like to know more about it anyways.


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## Billy_Bob

Always good to learn new things!

But bore cuts can be quite dangerous. If the upper 1/4 tip of the chainsaw bar comes in contact with wood, the bar can kickback and fly into your body.

So the first thing is to fully understand how chainsaws can kick back and how to prevent this from happening. And to learn about the proper protective clothing to wear...

Stihl chainsaw safety video...
http://www.stihldealer.net/videolibrary/

OSHA logging Etool chainsaw...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/logger/logger.html

Then the following book has diagrams of where bore cuts are used. Mainly on very large trees...

Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent...
http://www.ddouglasdent.com/dent_books.htm

And the following booklet (online) shows using a bore cut on heavy leaning trees to prevent barber chair...

A Guide to Safety in Tree Felling and Cross Cutting
Occupational Safety and Health Service, Department of Labour,
Wellington, New Zealand.
(Advanced Techniques reader page 41/42 - Document page 42/43)
http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf


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## GASoline71

Find a GOL course somewhere... they *LOVE* the bore cut... 

Gary


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## SunriseAtSea

*For starters.*

Try You-Tube, there are several demo's, I would start with the one called "Chainsaw Boring Cut, otherwise called a Plunge cut - 03:41 - Dec 1, 2007 "


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## Gypo Logger

komatsuvarna said:


> Any body got a video or good pictures of a bore cut. Ive read alot and still dont understand part of it. Do you drive the wedge in both sides of the bore cut or in the back cut? Do you make the face cut before the bore cut? I probably wont ever need it just cuttin firewood, but id like to know more about it anyways.



I only adopt the plunge cut when dealing with heavy leaners, cutting out a bar width kerf behind the hinge.

I knew one guy who got carried away with the plunge cut. He'd plunge every block out wood when bucking tree length firewood and wondered why he was going thru so many tips.
Gypo


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## ross_scott

Billy_Bob said:


> Always good to learn new things!
> 
> But bore cuts can be quite dangerous. If the upper 1/4 tip of the chainsaw bar comes in contact with wood, the bar can kickback and fly into your body.
> 
> So the first thing is to fully understand how chainsaws can kick back and how to prevent this from happening. And to learn about the proper protective clothing to wear...
> 
> Stihl chainsaw safety video...
> http://www.stihldealer.net/videolibrary/
> 
> OSHA logging Etool chainsaw...
> http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/logger/logger.html
> 
> Then the following book has diagrams of where bore cuts are used. Mainly on very large trees...
> 
> Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent...
> http://www.ddouglasdent.com/dent_books.htm
> 
> And the following booklet (online) shows using a bore cut on heavy leaning trees to prevent barber chair...
> 
> *A Guide to Safety in Tree Felling and Cross Cutting
> Occupational Safety and Health Service, Department of Labour,
> Wellington, New Zealand.
> (Advanced Techniques reader page 41/42 - Document page 42/43)
> http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf*



On the Subject of kick back one extra safety measure we have here in New Zealand is that it is law to have a safety mitt attached to the half wrap handle so the left hand can not come off the saw in a kick back situation and it also prevents the first reaction of raising the arm to shield you from the bar and it works very well in maintaining control of the saw and that I can confirm.


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## Gypo Logger

ross_scott said:


> On the Subject of kick back one extra safety measure we have here in New Zealand is that it is law to have a safety mitt attached to the half wrap handle so the left hand can not come off the saw in a kick back situation and it also prevents the first reaction of raising the arm to shield you from the bar and it works very well in maintaining control of the saw and that I can confirm.



That's probably a good idea. I think removing the hand during kickback is more a result from panic and the fear it induces more so than the saw being ripped out of the operators hand.
Gypo


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## ross_scott

the other good point apart from it preventing the removal of the left had in a panic reaction it is also going to cause your hand to hit the chain brake if the saw rolls around enough but the inertia action should have engaged it before the hand comes in contact with the brake but hey sometimes they do fail


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## Gypo Logger

ross_scott said:


> the other good point apart from it preventing the removal of the left had in a panic reaction it is also going to cause your hand to hit the chain brake if the saw rolls around enough but the inertia action should have engaged it before the hand comes in contact with the brake but hey sometimes they do fail



Looks like that leather mitt would aslo make a good beer holder. Lol
What kind of beer is that in the pic and what% of alcohol?
Gypo


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## caricob

Properly using a bore cut or plunge cut in conjunction with an open face cut is the safest method to fell a tree. It gives you complete control up until the moment that you make the release cut. If you are cutting with the lean it prevents barberchairing and having to chase the hinge. The open face cut allows the stem to stay attached to the stump all the way to the ground giving better control of the fall as long as the hinge is set up correctly. This method when used with felling wedges allows the greatest amount of directional control when felling. You can use a plum bob to determine the amount of lean and based on the tree diameter and height figure out if the tree can be safely felled against the lean. As far as learning this method I would suggest taking a class or trying to find someone in your area who is familiar with the method. It could be dangerous trying to learn this method from a video or photos.


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## joesawer

In real Kick Back event the whole thing is over long before you can put your hand up in a defensive posture.

Driving wedges in a bore cut for felling is an exercise in stupidity.


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## 056 kid

Remove your hand during a kick back?? Hmmmm that sounds weird. it happens so fast.


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## 056 kid

caricob said:


> Properly using a bore cut or plunge cut in conjunction with an open face cut is the safest method to fell a tree. It gives you complete control up until the moment that you make the release cut. If you are cutting with the lean it prevents barberchairing and having to chase the hinge. The open face cut allows the stem to stay attached to the stump all the way to the ground giving better control of the fall as long as the hinge is set up correctly. This method when used with felling wedges allows the greatest amount of directional control when felling. You can use a plum bob to determine the amount of lean and based on the tree diameter and height figure out if the tree can be safely felled against the lean. As far as learning this method I would suggest taking a class or trying to find someone in your area who is familiar with the method. It could be dangerous trying to learn this method from a video or photos.



That is not true at all. In fact you have NO CONTROL untill you hit the back strap, then because you might have cut too much wood where you should have left wood but had no idea of what the tree was doing cause you where not allowing it to show you because you have all that wood in the back cut holding it. So you hit the back strap and the tree peels the hinge sideways and falls where ever the hell it wants to all because you "set the hinge up" instead of taking wood untill it smoothly & slowly starts to commit. Seen GOL trees go where they pleased after the guy cut the back strap many times.

& like others have said, banging wedges into a tree that still has wood in the back cut is pure insanity........

I am not saying guys who do it are bad fallers, but it is BY FAR not the best way to go about directional timber falling.
I wish i could articulate myself better to help yall understand what Im sayin. . . .


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## 2dogs

caricob said:


> Properly using a bore cut or plunge cut in conjunction with an open face cut is the safest method to fell a tree. It gives you complete control up until the moment that you make the release cut. If you are cutting with the lean it prevents barberchairing and having to chase the hinge. The open face cut allows the stem to stay attached to the stump all the way to the ground giving better control of the fall as long as the hinge is set up correctly. This method when used with felling wedges allows the greatest amount of directional control when felling. You can use a plum bob to determine the amount of lean and based on the tree diameter and height figure out if the tree can be safely felled against the lean. As far as learning this method I would suggest taking a class or trying to find someone in your area who is familiar with the method. It could be dangerous trying to learn this method from a video or photos.



So you have taken a GOL class and now you are an expert. Or should I say votary. The bore cut is nothing more than another tool for the toolbox. I would like to see someone put a bore cut on a 4' dbh redwood. Why do you think there are more methods than just your bore cut. I'll tell you why, because trees present differently due to species, size, lean. damage, slope, lay, wind, and a dozen other reasons. I normally use a Humboldt but I size up the tree first and use the method that suits that tree best.

The GOL bore cut is great for even aged stands of reprod where the trees all look the same, small and straight. Wild form (harvestable) mature trees don't grow in Europe where the technique was developed.


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## slowp

Fasten seatbelts, here we go again. opcorn:


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## Metals406

I don't like boring cuts. . . I prefer the exciting ones.


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## tawilson

Yukonsawman said:


> Looks like that leather mitt would aslo make a good beer holder. Lol
> What kind of beer is that in the pic and what% of alcohol?
> Gypo



If I kept my beer can that close to the poison bottle, kickback would not be an issue.


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## caricob

The gentleman who asked the question was from TN not California. He will likely not be cutting many 4' diameter redwood trees. The statement that ""putting wedges in a bore cut is an exercise in stupidity" is, how should I put this? Stupid! I did not say that this method is the only way to cut a tree, but it is a very safe and effective way to do so. I have not been through GOL but I am familiar with it. It amazes me how people react to anything new, whether it be tree felling or any other aspect of logging. Just because daddy or grandaddy did it this way does'nt make it right. Any way I'm not here to argue, I was just trying to answer a question for a fellow member. GOL is not the only place where people learn to do this. I cut timber for many years using the old tried and true methods but I had enough flexibility and intelligence to try something new, and discovered that there is a better way to make a mousetrap


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## Gologit

caricob said:


> Properly using a bore cut or plunge cut in conjunction with an open face cut is the safest method to fell a tree. It gives you complete control up until the moment that you make the release cut.



Absolute crap. You keep spouting that kind of nonsense and some of the newbies will take you at your word and get themselves hurt. Bore cuts have their place, I've used them when necessary. But to just flat out say that any one method is the safest shows inexperience and an inability to look at alternative methods. Get your nose out of the book and look around a little.


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## komatsuvarna

well i aint planning on doing it. All i cut is a little firewood and i just use the ole 45* face cut and 2 inches up start the back cut. Na i dont plan on cuttin down any 4 ft red wood trees. lmao i love it. Iz just wondering bout how it worked.


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## sawinredneck

Seems this gets beaten every couple of months!
I've used the bore cut several times. Once on a 36" Hedge, once on a 26" Hedge (Osage Orange, Iron wood) that had heavy leans.
I don't know if you are familiar with this wood or not, but it's not fun stuff, and when it gets that large it presents many problems in itself then add a lean and it's worse. It's a very dense and stringy wood, but as it grows, it's either codoms grown together, or twists as it goes up. It's very rare to find much straight wood in the mess, and once of the ground large pieces will fall into smaller ones because of the callusing as the codoms grew. Lots of tension, lots of things to go wrong on a leaner.
I've also used it on several Oaks and a couple of nasty Hackberries. The Oaks present their own problems with the long straight grain, and I have barberchaired a 36" Oak once, bad deal!
Is it something I do with every tree? No! Thats a waste of time and resources. Is it a handy tool to know and know how to do well? Damn skipy it is! Saved my bacon more than once!
For the poster worried about leaving too much hinge, I've done that as well, the 26" Hedge in fact. But here's the thing, you have the tension off of the tree at that point. Even if you chase the tree off the stump you should have enough wood behind the hinge to hold together at that point.
Now it's hard to get the feel for, and scares the piss out of you at first, that's good, fear demands respect! The point you get comfortable running a saw and think you have it mastered is the time you get hurt! Fear it, and respect it!
But I can't wait to see how this one goes.


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## caricob

I get the feeling that the folks bashing the bore cut have probably never tried it or don't know what they are talking about.


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## komatsuvarna

sawinredneck said:


> fear demands respect! The point you get comfortable running a saw and think you have it mastered is the time you get hurt! Fear it, and respect it.
> 
> :agree2: Its new to me. Ive never herd or seen a bore cut. Iz just wanting to know more about it.


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## sawinredneck

Not saying they are doing it right, not saying they are doing it safe, but here is a bunch of videos! Ask away once you watch a few.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bore+cut&search_type=&aq=0


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## Gologit

caricob said:


> I get the feeling that the folks bashing the bore cut have probably never tried it or don't know what they are talking about.



Apparently, among your other handicaps, you have a reading problem. Take a deep breath, go back through the posts in this thread, read slowly and make a real effort to retain what you've read.

Most of us have tried the bore cut and know when and where it's called for. What we're _not_ saying is that it's the safest method to fall a tree and that its appropriate for every situation. It's not. Never has been. Never will be. Clear?


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## 056 kid

caricob said:


> I get the feeling that the folks bashing the bore cut have probably never tried it or don't know what they are talking about.



I have tried it, I bet I can put more on the ground than you with the "old grandpa" methods and only work half as hard.


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## komatsuvarna

From the videos it seems that most of the time the tree is already leaning in the direction of fall, therefore no wedging takes place? I could see how this could be dangerous if you didnt know what you were doing. i bet you better not file the rakers down to much either(like i have before) or you might get a mouth full of bar. Ive never seen it or done it either, but i can see that there would be a time and a place for it. Probably not ever cut though.


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## caricob

Some of you dudes need to chill. I take it from the responses that this has been hased out before. How about we agree to disagree and leave it at that. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. All I did was answer the guys question. I did recommend that he get some personal instruction before trying it.


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## komatsuvarna

caricob said:


> Some of you dudes need to chill. I take it from the responses that this has been hased out before. How about we agree to disagree and leave it at that. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. All I did was answer the guys question. I did recommend that he get some personal instruction before trying it.



:agree2: Give us all beer. lol


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## Gologit

caricob said:


> Some of you dudes need to chill. I take it from the responses that this has been hased out before. How about we agree to disagree and leave it at that. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. All I did was answer the guys question. I did recommend that he get some personal instruction before trying it.



By "chill" do you mean that when you post nonsense we should just all ignore it?
Sorry, lady, but things don't work that way. And I don't agree to a damn thing.

You're a state forester and to a lot of people, misguided though they may be, that means you probably know what you're talking about. They'll think that if you say something is good, bad, or indifferent it must be the absolute truth because you're a forester. You do yourself, and everyone else who's foolish enough to believe that you're an expert, a grave disservice with that kind of attitude.

You say you "cut timber for many years"....most fallers I know have better sense than to say that any one method is the safest. Most fallers I know, while being proud of what they do, have enough wisdom, experience and humility to realize that every tree is different and there isn't any one way that works every time.

So...you "chill", lady...and leave us to do what we do best.


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## 056 kid

HAY LADY.......... YAYYYYYYYY.





Maybe some of yall have herd of crank yankers?


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## tawilson

It's easier to get the feel of starting your cut if you practice on downed logs.


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## caricob

> You're a state forester and to a lot of people, misguided though they may be, that means you probably know what you're talking about. They'll think that if you say something is good, bad, or indifferent it must be the absolute truth because you're a forester. You do yourself, and everyone else who's foolish enough to believe that you're an expert, a grave disservice with that kind of attitude.



Who took a leak in your cornflakes. I am not feeling the forester love. I suppose that anybody with an education regardless of work experience is an idiot. Sounds like you have some insecurity issues to work out. I agree that every situation is different and every tree is different, but to completely down a proven and safe felling method because you don't like it or more likely because you don't know a whole lot about it is narrow minded. Y'all have fun.:bang::bang:


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## caricob

It has gotten pretty boring around here lately. At least we have livened things up a little.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## GASoline71

caricob said:


> I agree that every situation is different and every tree is different, but to completely down a proven and safe felling method because you don't like it or more likely because you don't know a whole lot about it is narrow minded.



LMAO...  THAT my fair maiden is one of thee most narrowminded posts I have ever read on this forum...

Bob and a lot of us here have more fallin' knowledge than you can fathom. Guys like Bob have forgot more than you'll (or I for that matter) ever know. Trust me... we know how to employ the beloved bore cut. BUT NOT FOR EVERY STINKIN' TREE WE FALL! You run around out here wastin' time with a plumb-bob thingymajog, and you're gonna be so far behind, the chokers will be nippin' your heels.

Proven Safe! Ha! So is the Conventional, the Humboldt, the Coos Bay, etc. They are all proven safe. Hells Bells... the Coos Bay is waaaayyyy better than your "bore cut"... so before you start spoutin' all your GOL crud... remember, there are proven ways to put wood on the ground safe and fast. Next time I go out on a strip I'm gonna start makin' "bore cuts" with a plumb-bob, and see how quick I get laughed off the mountain...

...and BTW, piss tatses good in cornflakes. 

Gary


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## GASoline71

056 kid said:


> HAY LADY.......... YAYYYYYYYY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe some of yall have herd of crank yankers?



HAHAHAHA!







Special Ed rocks!

Gary


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## Metals406

caricob said:


> Who took a leak in your cornflakes. I am not feeling the forester love. I suppose that anybody with an education regardless of work experience is an idiot. Sounds like you have some insecurity issues to work out. I agree that every situation is different and every tree is different, but to completely down a proven and safe felling method because you don't like it or more likely because you don't know a whole lot about it is narrow minded. Y'all have fun.:bang::bang:



Cari,

Perhaps you should pull them OSHA certified ear plugs out? Bob (Gologit) said he uses the bore-cut, in fact he said it's a good cut. . . In it's place.

As far as experience, I reckon Bob has more falling and logging experience in his fingernail clippings, than you got in your "entire career".

So, listen up, and because Bob won't want to repeat himself -- here's the skinny. The bore cut is a good cut, it has it's place in timber falling. . . It's not a one size fits all cut, there are other safe, widely used, proper, and productive techniques out there besides the open face or bore cut. Selling those techniques as a blanket 'do-all' is crap, and is detrimental to newbies trying to learn a thing or two, and possibly dangerous.

There are a few East Coast loggers on this forum that have adopted a lot of West Coast technique. . . Why? Because it works, it's safe, and it's better. It helps them produce, so they can pay their bills. 

I'm sure you're a good forester, and I'm sure you're good at it, and I'm sure you know how to use a chainsaw. . . But you're dead wrong with your statement towards Bob, and your wrong about a one-size-fits-all cutting technique.


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## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> Cari,
> 
> Perhaps you should pull them OSHA certified ear plugs out? Bob (Gologit) said he uses the bore-cut, in fact he said it's a good cut. . . In it's place.
> 
> As far as experience, I reckon Bob has more falling and logging experience in his fingernail clippings, than you got in your "entire career".
> 
> So, listen up, and because Bob won't want to repeat himself -- here's the skinny. The bore cut is a good cut, it has it's place in timber falling. . . It's not a one size fits all cut, there are other safe, widely used, proper, and productive techniques out there besides the open face or bore cut. Selling those techniques as a blanket 'do-all' is crap, and is detrimental to newbies trying to learn a thing or two, and possibly dangerous.
> 
> There are a few East Coast loggers on this forum that have adopted a lot of West Coast technique. . . Why? Because it works, it's safe, and it's better. It helps them produce, so they can pay their bills.
> 
> I'm sure you're a good forester, and I'm sure you're good at it, and I'm sure you know how to use a chainsaw. . . But you're dead wrong with your statement towards Bob, and your wrong about a one-size-fits-all cutting technique.



Gologit (our beloved Bob) started out logging with a bronze ax and went through iron, steel and then drag saws. There are no trees on Antarctica because got there before the place was frozen over. (Don't get him started on the polar shift topic.) There was no Chestnut blight or Dutch Elm disease, it was Bob who killed all those trees. Bob's first skidder was a wooly mammoth. In other words he knows of what he speaks. And he is right about caricob not understanding what was posted. Bore cutting is well known to us and employed when needed. We can perform it safely and quickly but it is not the only club in the bag. Those of us who wield a saw regulalry need a whole bag of clubs.


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## 056 kid

GASoline71 said:


> LMAO...  THAT my fair maiden is one of thee most narrowminded posts I have ever read on this forum...
> 
> Bob and a lot of us here have more fallin' knowledge than you can fathom. Guys like Bob have forgot more than you'll (or I for that matter) ever know. Trust me... we know how to employ the beloved bore cut. BUT NOT FOR EVERY STINKIN' TREE WE FALL! You run around out here wastin' time with a plumb-bob thingymajog, and you're gonna be so far behind, the chokers will be nippin' your heels.
> 
> Proven Safe! Ha! So is the Conventional, the Humboldt, the Coos Bay, etc. They are all proven safe. Hells Bells... the Coos Bay is waaaayyyy better than your "bore cut"... so before you start spoutin' all your GOL crud... remember, there are proven ways to put wood on the ground safe and fast. Next time I go out on a strip I'm gonna start makin' "bore cuts" with a plumb-bob, and see how quick I get laughed off the mountain...
> 
> ...and BTW, piss tatses good in cornflakes.
> 
> Gary



DAMN Gary, you is really scarin me with all that techno talk!

BTW whats the Coos Bay look like? i have herd of it but cant picture it and that is unacceptable!



O yea, Caricob, if you ever see an immaculately clean strip full of humboldt stumps out there in VA, that is the work of yours truely. the east coaster with the west coast brain....


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## joesawer

caricob said:


> The gentleman who asked the question was from TN not California. He will likely not be cutting many 4' diameter redwood trees. The statement that ""putting wedges in a bore cut is an exercise in stupidity" is, how should I put this? Stupid! I did not say that this method is the only way to cut a tree, but it is a very safe and effective way to do so. I have not been through GOL but I am familiar with it. It amazes me how people react to anything new, whether it be tree felling or any other aspect of logging. Just because daddy or grandaddy did it this way does'nt make it right. Any way I'm not here to argue, I was just trying to answer a question for a fellow member. GOL is not the only place where people learn to do this. I cut timber for many years using the old tried and true methods but I had enough flexibility and intelligence to try something new, and discovered that there is a better way to make a mousetrap





I don't know you and you don't know me so I will give you the benefit of doubt. Are you capable of learning anything or are you to highly educated to learn anything new.

Lesson one- Learn to use some paragraphs, it will make your posts much easier to read and understand.

My grand father was cutting timber in the Appalachians when the transition from misery whip and ax to chainsaw took place.
When the chainsaw first came on the scene they started using bore cuts. My bore cut training traces its roots back to the first power saws to come to the eastern US.
Some time after WWII the old tried and true timber falling technology in the south eastern US was lost. It was replaced by Asplundh tree service technology, mechanized harvesting and some kind of kerf face, cut and hope technique. 
The technology that came from Europe to the US kept moving west and was only found in the western US, when they reinvented the wheel and called it new and introduced it to those who had lost it the first time. But it was promoted as the very best and safest way to cut trees in virtually all situations. 
It can cover for some mistakes or lack of training, but it is far from the end all, be all of timber falling.

As for driving wedges into the kerf of a tree that has been cut up but still has a strap holding the back, it is an exercise in stupidity. And anyone endorsing it is just showing off their ignorance.


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## Gypo Logger

In my falling and felling experience as a faller and feller, I believe there are only three real reasons to plunge.
#1 To make it appear that you know what you're doing because GOL says to do it.

#2 To rip out the heart behind the hinge to prevent butt shatter and fibre pull on leaners.

#3 To rip out the heart thru the undercut to prevent fibre pull when using shorter bars.

All other plunging is merely perfunctory unless someone can come up with a viable reason to plunge except in the odd bucking situation or your from Europe. Lol
Gypo


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## joesawer

056 kid said:


> DAMN Gary, you is really scarin me with all that techno talk!
> 
> BTW whats the Coos Bay look like? i have herd of it but cant picture it and that is unacceptable!






If a tree is a heavy leaner and will go the way of the lean without any hinge to steer it, you can cut it up with a strip like a hinge holding the tree up side ways.
Think of it as a hinge holding up a heavy side leaner and ripping the hinge out of it.
You just cut a kerf in the sides and leave the wood in the middle holding the tree up and the kerf will close and keep it from falling over side ways.
Then you rip the long narrow piece of wood out and let er fall the way she's leaning. It will greatly reduce fiber pull and eliminate barber chair. There are some variations that can be used to steer it some after it starts moving.


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## ross_scott

Yukonsawman said:


> Looks like that leather mitt would aslo make a good beer holder. Lol
> What kind of beer is that in the pic and what% of alcohol?
> Gypo



The beer is my favourite bitter beer it is the only beer I will touch over here in New Zealand 4% alcohol content (not strong enough? my home brew is 10%) the name on the can is waikato (pronounced y-cat-o). Oh and for the record that is an empty can that I use as an ash tray i never drink any alcohol while sharpening my saw at home after a day out cutting.


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## 056 kid

ross_scott said:


> The beer is my favourite bitter beer it is the only beer I will touch over here in New Zealand 4% alcohol content (not strong enough? my home brew is 10%) the name on the can is waikato (pronounced y-cat-o). Oh and for the record that is an empty can that I use as an ash tray i never drink any alcohol while sharpening my saw at home after a day out cutting.



pu$$y


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## Gypo Logger

ross_scott said:


> Oh and for the record that is an empty can that I use as an ash tray i never drink any alcohol while sharpening my saw at home after a day out cutting.



Sure...... you don't Lol

A guy could get pretty chit faced on 10%. Here in Canada our strongest beer is 6% Black Ice and Extra Stock, but you get a wicked hangover.
Gypo


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## Metals406

056 kid said:


> pu$$y



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## GASoline71

056 kid said:


> DAMN Gary, you is really scarin me with all that techno talk!
> 
> BTW whats the Coos Bay look like? i have herd of it but cant picture it and that is unacceptable!





joesawer said:


> If a tree is a heavy leaner and will go the way of the lean without any hinge to steer it, you can cut it up with a strip like a hinge holding the tree up side ways.
> Think of it as a hinge holding up a heavy side leaner and ripping the hinge out of it.
> You just cut a kerf in the sides and leave the wood in the middle holding the tree up and the kerf will close and keep it from falling over side ways.
> Then you rip the long narrow piece of wood out and let er fall the way she's leaning. It will greatly reduce fiber pull and eliminate barber chair. There are some variations that can be used to steer it some after it starts moving.



Joesawyer explained it pretty good... You can cut in the sides like a "T", or a "triangle", depending on how much holding wood you need. For a severe lean I will use a "triangle" since there will be more holding wood. Then bring the saw up in RPM, and rip like a mutha through the back of the "T", or "triangle".

This was taught to me by a very experience faller from Oregon... also Gerry Beranek had showed the 2 differences to me some time ago.

Here is a diagram... hope it explains it... I even used Powerpoint... now my brain hurts...







Gary


----------



## 056 kid

I have used that "T" cut alot. benefits of having a 20'' bar when your over in east coast hardwood country. That 20 is just the right size for getting all in the hardwood guts like that. I am gonna have to try the triangle deal. The gray matter tellls me that it wont work that well on hardwood. I have had white oaks open up with just alittle bitty square of wood on the pull side of the face.

To me there are so many other ways that are funner & easier than the boring cut;(face,plunge behind each side of holding wood and release) that chit is for the birds...

I never knew you knew Jerry Gary. That man knows his stuff I believe. . .

BTW thats a PRO job on the power point Gary!


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## GASoline71

The big traingle works well on Big softwoods. Not sure how it would work on the hardwoods you're used to. We usually get some wicked leaning Alders around here, and the T works great on those. Gerry had showed me the Triangle... Not sure which one is the "true" Coos Bay cut... but they both work when applied correctly to the situation at hand.

I used my daughters laptop to do that Powerpoint diagram some time ago... Almost makes me feel not so knuckledraggerish... 

Gary


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## 056 kid

I read somewhere about a cut similar to the triangle cut but your aimed lay is where the triangle points, no face... Its not a directional deal but a flopper.


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## GASoline71

Yep... I've seen that too. Never used it myself, but have seen it used.

Hey there whippersnapper... isn't it past your bedtime?  It's almost 1am here so it's gotta be pretty late there. 

I'm out for the night... later mang!

Gary


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## 056 kid

Its one here too Old fart. Im still tryin to migrate haha. I need one of them flying carpets..... but sleep sounds good, im getting hungary, that means I need to get to sleep quick before I go and tear the kitchen apart....


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## Metals406

I've used the triangle back-cut on heavy leaning DF. . . I cut the cheeks of the face with it too and it helps with stump pull.


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## Gologit

GASoline71 said:


> Yep... I've seen that too. Never used it myself, but have seen it used.
> 
> Hey there whippersnapper... isn't it past your bedtime?  It's almost 1am here so it's gotta be pretty late there.
> 
> I'm out for the night... later mang!
> 
> Gary



Yeah, sure...you kids go on and get your beauty sleep. I'm just getting and going to work...gonna sneak up on the trees in the dark.

That Coos Bay cut is a good one. You can vary it different ways a little and generally the wood goes where you want it. I've heard it called different things in different places but I've used it and seen it used.


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## Gologit

caricob said:


> Who took a leak in your cornflakes. I am not feeling the forester love. I suppose that anybody with an education regardless of work experience is an idiot.



Not at all. What a college degree means to me is that you were given some unique information and training and you managed to remember enough of it to get the minimum passing grade on enough exams that after four years they gave you a piece of paper and tossed you out into the world.

It's what you do with the education, and how you apply it, that matters. Don't confuse education with knowledge. Most people know the difference.

And, please, learn to cuss right if you're going to be talking to loggers. It's not "who took a leak in your cornflakes"...that's lame. It's "who pissed on your Cheerios this morning"...you need to work on this stuff.

And as for not feeling the forester love? We all love sensible foresters...you could learn a lot from them. And you probably should.


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## slowp

By the way, there's a few loggers out there with "educations" too. They might have more than you. *Never, ever *assume your piece of paper trumps years of experience. 

During the 80s, it was rumored that there was a faller who was a burnt out opera singer from the East. There was quite a variety of backgrounds working in the woods then.

There's a junior high drop out who can come up with a height quicker than using Logger PC how high he's got to rig a tail tree. He'll come up with the same answer as the computer. I checked him for fun once. 

College education is a good thing, but NEVER stop learning. If a logger is doing something new to you, ask questions. Seems like a lot of folks I work with assume they have no more to learn after they get that piece of paper. Makes me want to urinate in their granola.... Drum roll please. Now back to you fallers.....opcorn:


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## bitzer

Hey Gary thanks for the diagram! I've been having a hard time picturing it myself. I have used that on occasion, but if the bar is long enough to plunge all the way thru behind the hinge I'll work to the back and leave a strap on heavy headed forward leaners. It beats walkin around the tree, but hardwood is different. I think the Kid is right on the triangle on hardwoods. Sometimes the saw is not fast enough to get there in time. 

Boring is just another tool in the bag. Every tree, ground, and situation is different. There is no catch all and hardwood felling is a hell of a lot different from softwood I believe. Its about knowing when and what to use not just standard procedure for every damn tree. Those GOL guys must go thru a hell of a lot of fuel! I think the same for a lot of the Euro vids I have seen.

Some of the guys who really know what the hell they are talking about on this site should have a special symbol or something next to their username for newbs or guys who just don't know. Theres about a dozen or so that hang out in this forum regularly that I would designate for that insignia.


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## Billy_Bob

Gologit said:


> Not at all. What a college degree means to me is that you were given some unique information and training and you managed to remember enough of it to get the minimum passing grade on enough exams that after four years they gave you a piece of paper and tossed you out into the world.
> 
> It's what you do with the education, and how you apply it, that matters. Don't confuse education with knowledge. Most people know the difference.



Those are very wise words. My brother was an "expert" at attending college. He would "cram" one week before a test, pass the test, then a week later forget everything! He basically wasted 4 years of his life. He never "learned how to learn".

And that is important these days with all the new technology and things changing constantly. If someone can learn something new on their own, then they can do anything.

Following is a link to a biography of a person with just a high school education who could run circles around many college educated engineers.

Note: ["...When he enlisted Yeager was not eligible for flight training because of his age and educational background..."]...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Yeager


----------



## ross_scott

Yukonsawman said:


> Sure...... you don't Lol
> 
> A guy could get pretty chit faced on 10%. Here in Canada our strongest beer is 6% Black Ice and Extra Stock, but you get a wicked hangover.
> Gypo



Oh lets just say if you get stuck into that 10% stuff of mine the hangover will last more than a day,


----------



## dancan

I'll let the others handle the bore cutting issue , I know what works for me and I can't see myself spending 5 days on a 2 day lot .
I think Yukonsawman might have to come to the Maritimes to get a better selection of beer .












This one make all others that I have had on the weak side .




Just a few of the 239+ beers that we have in our stores .


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## Gypo Logger

dancan said:


> I'll let the others handle the bore cutting issue , I know what works for me and I can't see myself spending 5 days on a 2 day lot .
> I think Yukonsawman might have to come to the Maritimes to get a better selection of beer .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one make all others that I have had on the weak side .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few of the 239+ beers that we have in our stores .



I don't know Duncan, but between you and Ross, somebodies gonna end up with a wicked hangover. Beer and saws and trees always seem to get together. What's up with that? I'm just sippin on Bud right now. Am I missin' out on anything? Lol
Gypo


----------



## komatsuvarna

Yukonsawman said:


> I don't know Duncan, but between you and Ross, somebodies gonna end up with a wicked hangover. Beer and saws and trees always seem to get together. What's up with that? I'm just sippin on Bud right now. Am I missin' out on anything? Lol
> Gypo



Ill take a bud too. I bet that extra strong beer probably bout like Milwaukee's beast! LOL


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## 056 kid

Strong beer = 211, Hurricane, old english, country club(BARF), colt 45, any ice beer. Its all nasty as hell....

Lots if the folks my age love that juice stuff and the other junk I cant remember. its like 12%. I asked them, "have yall ever considered wine?" Its the same damn thing just a hell of alot more natural, plus it comes in big enough quantities so you dont have to get but a few bottles to achieve the desired affect. there is somthing about a wine buzz that you cant get from any other beverage. It kills my heartburn though..

Il stick to my PBR...


----------



## Old51AVE

Wish we could get THESE locally! http://www.drinkpropeller.ca/content/growlers

Cheers! 

Old51AVE :greenchainsaw:


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## keith811

056 kid said:


> pu$$y



:agree2:
chain sharpening time is beer30


----------



## ross_scott

Yukonsawman said:


> I don't know Duncan, but between you and Ross, somebodies gonna end up with a wicked hangover. Beer and saws and trees always seem to get together. What's up with that? I'm just sippin on Bud right now. Am I missin' out on anything? Lol
> Gypo



Well Gypo I only drink from that batch of home brew when I feel like having one. It was the second brew I ever made and will not follow the recipe I used again it is just far too nasty and I hate the stout type flavour it has. If I want something strong I would rather a double JD's.


----------



## Gologit

bitzercreek1 said:


> Some of the guys who really know what the hell they are talking about on this site should have a special symbol or something next to their username for newbs or guys who just don't know. Theres about a dozen or so that hang out in this forum regularly that I would designate for that insignia.



Maybe this one? :bang:


----------



## tawilson

komatsuvarna said:


> Any body got a video or good pictures of a bore cut. Ive read alot and still dont understand part of it. Do you drive the wedge in both sides of the bore cut or in the back cut? Do you make the face cut before the bore cut? I probably wont ever need it just cuttin firewood, but id like to know more about it anyways.


I'm just a weekend warrior here, but what the heck. There's three different situations I use the bore cut in. A heavy leaner to avoid barberchairing, a small tree I want to direct away from the lean and it's not big enough for a wedge in the back cut, which is were I put a wedge in the bore cut, and cutting a stump off flush. Once I get the bore cut through it's easy to work the saw back and forth and if one side is dirty you can hit that on the way out.
I'll mention again practicing it when you are bucking up logs.


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## wvlogger

Metals406 said:


> There are a few East Coast loggers on this forum that have adopted a lot of West Coast technique. . . Why? Because it works, it's safe, and it's better. It helps them produce, so they can pay their bills.



:agree2: I happen to be one of them. I think bore cuts take waaaaaay to long but i use them when the situation calls for it


----------



## RandyMac

caricob said:


> I get the feeling that the folks bashing the bore cut have probably never tried it or don't know what they are talking about.



Where do these people come from?

Hah hah, A four foot Redwood is a sprout, not a tree!!!

I was going to add more pith to the stem, but it's been well covered.


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## fmaglin

*A Mid Westerner's approach*

I'd like to add that though I'm not actually an East Coaster, I am a Mid-Westerner, cutting mostly Eastern hardwoods. Most of my cutting technique has been adopted from my West Coast brethren. Unlike some of the local fallers here, I use a 32" bar, and the "majority" of the trees I drop are cut with a Humbolt, usually making just three cuts. This technique has provided me with a safe way of getting the butt of the tree on the ground, and preventing it from kicking back at me, and in many instances, saving out the wood in a timely and efficient manner. I do occasionally use a bore cut in combination with a Humbolt notch on trees that have heavy head lean, but that is about the only time. I do understand that there are many variables that are an inevitable part of timber falling which call for procedural changes; however, I cant imagine bore cutting a tree, then wedging on each side of the bore cut. What exactly would be the purpose of wedging the sides???? :monkey:


----------



## Cedarkerf

GASoline71 said:


> Joesawyer explained it pretty good... You can cut in the sides like a "T", or a "triangle", depending on how much holding wood you need. For a severe lean I will use a "triangle" since there will be more holding wood. Then bring the saw up in RPM, and rip like a mutha through the back of the "T", or "triangle".
> 
> This was taught to me by a very experience faller from Oregon... also Gerry Beranek had showed the 2 differences to me some time ago.
> 
> Here is a diagram... hope it explains it... I even used Powerpoint... now my brain hurts...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary


Those diagrams look like the ones from my highschool forestry class back in1970 something


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## GASoline71

Gologit said:


> Maybe this one? :bang:



Or this one... :taped: Or this one... :deadhorse: Or this one... :censored: Or this one...  Or this one... :help: 

Gary


----------



## Turkeyslayer

GASoline71 said:


> Joesawyer explained it pretty good... You can cut in the sides like a "T", or a "triangle", depending on how much holding wood you need. For a severe lean I will use a "triangle" since there will be more holding wood. Then bring the saw up in RPM, and rip like a mutha through the back of the "T", or "triangle".
> 
> This was taught to me by a very experience faller from Oregon... also Gerry Beranek had showed the 2 differences to me some time ago.
> 
> Here is a diagram... hope it explains it... I even used Powerpoint... now my brain hurts...
> 
> Gary



Nobody told me those are west coast techniques. Hell I have been using the "triangle" cut for years on large light leaners, hardwoods I might add, and it works great. 
Thanks Gary from now on I will be calling it the Coos Bay, that way I can confuse all my eastern tree cutting friends and it sounds a hell of alot cooler than the "triangle" cut. lol


Ps. I also borecut, but mostly on hard leaners, or I will bore in the face of trees that like to pull fiber.


----------



## madhatte

I've known & used the "T" for awhile. Never seen the triangle before. Got a heavy leaner in a training area that really needs to come down safely; think I might give that cut a try!


----------



## 056 kid

Turkeyslayer said:


> Nobody told me those are west coast techniques. *Hell I have been using the "triangle" cut for years on large light leaners, hardwoods I might add*, and it works great.
> Thanks Gary from now on I will be calling it the Coos Bay, that way I can confuse all my eastern tree cutting friends and it sounds a hell of alot cooler than the "triangle" cut. lol
> 
> 
> Ps. I also borecut, but mostly on hard leaners, or I will bore in the face of trees that like to pull fiber.





Can you help me understand the underlined part of your text? how are hardwoods light?


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## komatsuvarna

056 kid said:


> Can you help me understand the underlined part of your text? how are hardwoods light?



Hey kid, Youve done had to much of that PBR. lol Na im just ####tin ya. I think by light leaners that was hard woods He means hard wood trees that have just a little lean to them, instead of a heavy lean.:biggrinbounce2:


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## 056 kid

O, well that makes sense. Maybe an S in front of the word light would be beneficial haha..


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## Turkeyslayer

komatsuvarna said:


> Hey kid, Youve done had to much of that PBR. lol Na im just ####tin ya. I think by light leaners that was hard woods He means hard wood trees that have just a little lean to them, instead of a heavy lean.:biggrinbounce2:



Thats correct.


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## Billy_Bob

FYI - Balsa wood (the hobby airplane wood) is a hardwood!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochroma_pyramidale


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## LumberJeff

on a 25 inch tree i make the notch first, then the bore (2" elevated 1" bypass) back so only a little of the back cut remains. drive felling wedges in as close to the backcut as possible. then let it fly!!


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## 056 kid

LumberJeff said:


> on a 25 inch tree i make the notch first, then the bore (2" elevated 1" bypass) back so only a little of the back cut remains. drive felling wedges in as close to the backcut as possible. then let it fly!!



how bout face, back cut, wedge, fly?

instead of face, bore, bore again, hit wedges into the kirf of a tre that cannot lift, then fly..

I just dont get it..


----------



## Metals406

056 kid said:


> how bout face, back cut, wedge, fly?
> 
> instead of face, bore, bore again, hit wedges into the kirf of a tre that cannot lift, then fly..
> 
> I just dont get it..



The wedges driven into the back-cut of the bore, is to hinder sit-back. . . So you aren't trying to achieve lift at that point, of course until the trigger (strap) is tripped.

That procedure is good if you are boring a tree with little to no head lean, as the tree may indeed close the kerf and try and sit back once the trigger is cut, but doesn't do much on a tree with any amount of head lean. . . If you're gunning toward the lean, it'll fall, wedge or no.


----------



## GASoline71

LumberJeff said:


> on a 25 inch tree i make the notch first, then the bore (2" elevated 1" bypass) back so only a little of the back cut remains. drive felling wedges in as close to the backcut as possible. then let it fly!!



If this is for every tree you fall... I don't understand why you do that. It's not "safer"... just 2 cut the face, and a backcut... EZPZ.

Gary


----------



## 056 kid

GASoline71 said:


> If this is for every tree you fall... I don't understand why you do that. It's not "safer"... just 2 cut the face, and a backcut... EZPZ.
> 
> Gary



No ####, these guys are talking about pounding wedges into trees that have possible head lean. They dont wanna get their saws stuck when they pop their back strap so they put a wedge in a tree that might not need one. Its like tree cutting for morons or somthing. a normal back cut on a questionable tree can and will tell you if the trees gonna sit or commit, look at your kirf is it closing or opening? look at the tree is it going one way or the other. If you are really worried, slap a limp wedge in the back and see if it stiffens up, if it moves up just a millimeter, THEN, I REPEATE, *THEN* use alot of energy and pound some wedges
...
the GOL system completely disregaurds the old as can be prides of a timber faller. part of being good at falling timber is having the ability judge the way a tree wants to fall, to have the ability to finagle trees with your saw and a keen eye. To get maximum pay back from minimal exertion. NO SIR not with the GOL! With the wedged kirf & back strap you are basicly saying. "#### i dont have an idea on where that tree wants to go so im gonna cut and cut and bang and cut and bang and cut, the whole time Im not gonna get ANY feedback from the tree. I treat every tree as if it where a head back side leaner that could go ANY direction." 

Cmon GOL guys, learn how to cut a tree with some panache, with some style. Tell people, "im gonna swing that ##### clear over there" (people) NO, that cant be done! and do it, cause it CAN be done. 

Aaaah, I could go on and on but you Game of lotto logging fellas dont want to hear it....


----------



## 137cc

*Triangle Cut*

I was taught how to do the triangle cut by my grandpa. He started logging with misery whips and that is where he learned that technique. Since a boring cut wasn't and option back then this is what loggers came up with to deal with a heavy leaner.


----------



## secondscene

I have taken the GOL, while I agree that it not required in every situation, it is a most often a safer method for non-production cutters(aka homeowners). 

The two safety features I like with the bore are safely cutting extreme lean and the ability to stop if a something wanders into my work area. 

I do agree that hammering wedges into a kerf cut with the backstrap is a waste of effort at times, especially if there is front lean, some people are very paranoid of that stuck saw.

That swinging dutchman is so tricky to learn, been working on it, any good pointers anyone might have?


----------



## fmaglin

056 kid said:


> how bout face, back cut, wedge, fly?
> 
> instead of face, bore, bore again, hit wedges into the kirf of a tre that cannot lift, then fly..
> 
> I just dont get it..


:agree2:


----------



## bitzer

secondscene said:


> That swinging dutchman is so tricky to learn, been working on it, any good pointers anyone might have?



Get your face in first, the direction you want it to go, then re-gun back to where the tree would naturally go. Make sure your re-gun makes a clean angle from high side of the tree to the low side, meaning don't just cut more on one side while leaving the same amount in the middle. Its gotta be a radius from the side your swinging it to back to the side swinging from. 

Otherwise Gun back to where the tree would want to fall, but put the undercut in the way you would want it to fall, leaving a dutch on the swing from side. 

I would experiment on small trees until you get the hang of it. Watch the tree as it falls and analyze your stump. Take pride in your stumps and knowing what happened.


----------



## bitzer

056 kid said:


> No ####, these guys are talking about pounding wedges into trees that have possible head lean. They dont wanna get their saws stuck when they pop their back strap so they put a wedge in a tree that might not need one. Its like tree cutting for morons or somthing. a normal back cut on a questionable tree can and will tell you if the trees gonna sit or commit, look at your kirf is it closing or opening? look at the tree is it going one way or the other. If you are really worried, slap a limp wedge in the back and see if it stiffens up, if it moves up just a millimeter, THEN, I REPEATE, *THEN* use alot of energy and pound some wedges
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Hell yeah, sounds like felling for dummies. You just gotta feel your saw and feel the kirf tightening. In the ugly leaning BS I cut alot the kirf is constantly closing. If I don't bore in behind the hinge on a lot of them they will never leave the stump. I posted a pic of a face I made in one of them a little while back. I had to rebore behind that hinge three times before I could start moving back. As soon as I would poke thru it was a race to pull the saw out. Then again to open it up, and then the third time I was able to start moving back. I think I pulled out at least another time after that going back. Then when I had it all strapped and set to go, I checked the face and my dutch had started to close so I had to re-open that. I know those PITA trees are not regular forest timber, but if I couldn't feel what was going on, it would be a long ####### day.
> 
> Its just time on the saw that will teach you to feel. No amount of technique will teach you that.


----------



## GASoline71

secondscene said:


> I have taken the GOL, while I agree that it not required in every situation, *it is a most often a safer method for non-production cutters(aka homeowners). *



Sorry mang... but that statement could not be further from the truth. It is NOT safer for Joe Homeowner. 

Gary


----------



## secondscene

The question I have is why not? There is a chance of kickback on the bore cut, again this is assuming(which of course makes an ass out of me)that the homeowner has some experience. Just trying to understand reasons, I suppose. 

Bitzer, thanks for the info, I have been able to get the tree to swing, but what happens is the tree does not swing quickly enough before it's on the ground. From the stumps it appears that I am perhaps not getting the undercut deep enough past the hinge, on swing side of course.


----------



## 2dogs

bitzercreek1 said:


> 056 kid said:
> 
> 
> 
> No ####, these guys are talking about pounding wedges into trees that have possible head lean. They dont wanna get their saws stuck when they pop their back strap so they put a wedge in a tree that might not need one. Its like tree cutting for morons or somthing. a normal back cut on a questionable tree can and will tell you if the trees gonna sit or commit, look at your kirf is it closing or opening? look at the tree is it going one way or the other. If you are really worried, slap a limp wedge in the back and see if it stiffens up, if it moves up just a millimeter, THEN, I REPEATE, *THEN* use alot of energy and pound some wedges
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Hell yeah, sounds like felling for dummies. You just gotta feel your saw and feel the kirf tightening. In the ugly leaning BS I cut alot the kirf is constantly closing. If I don't bore in behind the hinge on a lot of them they will never leave the stump. I posted a pic of a face I made in one of them a little while back. I had to rebore behind that hinge three times before I could start moving back. As soon as I would poke thru it was a race to pull the saw out. Then again to open it up, and then the third time I was able to start moving back. I think I pulled out at least another time after that going back. Then when I had it all strapped and set to go, I checked the face and my dutch had started to close so I had to re-open that. I know those PITA trees are not regular forest timber, but if I couldn't feel what was going on, it would be a long ####### day.
> 
> Its just time on the saw that will teach you to feel. No amount of technique will teach you that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel the kerf tightening? Are you talking about felling or bucking? As an example yesterday I was bucking up a 3 1/2' redwood about 50' up from the stump where it was about 38" in diameter. The log was laying on a slope and was over a road so the kerf was closing. I reamed the cut constantly ( some guys here call it see-sawing). This kept the kerf open till the log dropped away.
> 
> If you are talking about feeling the kerf close while falling then you are beyond me. If my backcut is closing (in my little world) then the tree is sitting back and no amount of reaming will cause it to open up. In fact it will cause the tree to sit back even further. Unless the tree is a head leaner my backcuts always get wedges. Always. I once had a 4' dbh snag (on the side of a road) get sky bound and I ran out of wedges and had to cut up branches. Now I carry 2 or 4 wedges and have even more in the truck.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gypo Logger

I never liked dutchmans, intentional or otherwise, however, I have made triangular hingewood to help commit a tree if I was too lazy to get a wedge.

If a tree sets back on the saw it rarely if ever falls backwards unless some how the hinge was compromised.

Should this happen without equipment, it's a simple matter to remove the powerhead and refall the tree in it's commited direction.
Gypo


----------



## 2dogs

Yukonsawman said:


> I never liked dutchmans, intentional or otherwise, however, I have made triangular hingewood to help commit a tree if I was too lazy to get a wedge.
> 
> Same here. Tringular hinge wood; common, Dutchman icluding the "last second wedge in the face cut" uncommon.
> 
> If a tree sets back on the saw it rarely if ever falls backwards unless some how the hinge was compromised.
> 
> True but it is not going anywhere!
> 
> Should this happen without equipment, it's a simple matter to remove the powerhead and refall the tree in it's commited direction.
> 
> Yeah. If you have another saw or another bar and chain and if it is not too windy that the wind falls the tree, if the tree is not rotten and continues to break fibers while your chasing down another saw, and if no one enters the falling area while you're gone. On and on...
> Gypo



Bill


----------



## Gypo Logger

2dogs said:


> Bill



Yes, you're right. All these wonderful things and more happen to even the most accomplished fallers.
Most fallers usually have a backup saw, another faller or an equipment operator nearby.

The most pinched I ever was was when I was helping a faller fall 5 20" spruce parralel to a road we were widening.
Anyway, I had to fall all five at the same time, got my saw pinched then I got his saw pinched! Lol

After taking off the powerheads I hailed for the guy on the hoe and told him to knock them off the stump crown first in a domino effect.

The news was on the radio for everyone to hear about it on the construction crew.
It didn't hurt my pride one bit! Lol

Gypo


----------



## ross_scott

Yukonsawman said:


> Yes, you're right. All these wonderful things and more happen to even the most accomplished fallers.
> Most fallers usually have a backup saw, another faller or an equipment operator nearby.
> 
> The most pinched I ever was was when I was helping a faller fall 5 20" spruce parralel to a road we were widening.
> Anyway, I had to fall all five at the same time, got my saw pinched then I got his saw pinched! Lol
> 
> After taking off the powerheads I hailed for the guy on the hoe and told him to knock them off the stump crown first in a domino effect.
> 
> The news was on the radio for everyone to hear about it on the construction crew.
> It didn't hurt my pride one bit! Lol
> 
> Gypo



That reminds me of something that happened to me back in 2005 I got two saws jammed in the same tree due to my helper not holding the strain on the felling rope like I told him to do I did get the bars out eventually but had a bastard of a job doing it


----------



## 056 kid

2Dogs, I was talking about felling. instead of keeping yourself in the dark with the boring and the wedges and the back strap, you can get feedback from the tree in a normal back cyt with a wedge hanging in the kirf, you see that it might close up cause the wedge is starting to stand level so you beat that bugger alittle to open up the kirf and commit the tree.....


----------



## madhatte

I always slap a "safety" wedge in when possible, just in case, and even then, snags can offer big surprises. Eyes up, situational awareness at all times! There is no "One" way to drop a tree. Every trick in the book is in the book because it worked in some situation. More tricks in your bag = handling more and different situations. Example: I've never dropped anything bigger than 32". First time I do, I'll for sure size it up differently than something 18", because everything will be slower, heavier, and more final. Likewise, a 6" tree is likely to be whippy and active. That's its own kind of dangerous. Plus, there's no room for a wedge on a tree that small. I don't like to pig's ear anything bigger than about 4" on the butt.


----------



## 2dogs

056 kid said:


> 2Dogs, I was talking about felling. instead of keeping yourself in the dark with the boring and the wedges and the back strap, you can get feedback from the tree in a normal back cyt with a wedge hanging in the kirf, you see that it might close up cause the wedge is starting to stand level so you beat that bugger alittle to open up the kirf and commit the tree.....



Gotcha. If you would have said you already had a wedge in there I would not have reacted so. LOL


----------



## Gypo Logger

madhatte said:


> I always slap a "safety" wedge in when possible, just in case, and even then, snags can offer big surprises. Eyes up, situational awareness at all times! There is no "One" way to drop a tree. Every trick in the book is in the book because it worked in some situation. More tricks in your bag = handling more and different situations. Example: I've never dropped anything bigger than 32". First time I do, I'll for sure size it up differently than something 18", because everything will be slower, heavier, and more final. Likewise, a 6" tree is likely to be whippy and active. That's its own kind of dangerous. Plus, there's no room for a wedge on a tree that small. I don't like to pig's ear anything bigger than about 4" on the butt.



Sometimes you can wedge over a small tree by doing the backcut first about 3/4 after getting in the wedge as soon as possible, then make the undercut.
Trees under 6" are best stump jumped in most situations.
Gypo


----------



## 056 kid

Lets see your 385 stump jumpin vid G.


----------



## Gypo Logger

056 kid said:


> Lets see your 385 stump jumpin vid G.



I've got a few of them on AS, but that was when I was Gypo Logger.
I'll see what I can find. BRB
Gypo


----------



## Turkeyslayer

madhatte said:


> I always slap a "safety" wedge in when possible, just in case, and even then, snags can offer big surprises. Eyes up, situational awareness at all times! There is no "One" way to drop a tree. Every trick in the book is in the book because it worked in some situation. More tricks in your bag = handling more and different situations. Example: I've never dropped anything bigger than 32". First time I do, I'll for sure size it up differently than something 18", because everything will be slower, heavier, and more final. Likewise, a 6" tree is likely to be whippy and active. That's its own kind of dangerous. Plus, there's no room for a wedge on a tree that small. I don't like to pig's ear anything bigger than about 4" on the butt.



For me I cut alot of cull trees. I really dislike the little trees as they dont have enough weight to push through the canopy, making for many hung up trees. Where if you have a nice 20"+ tree it will most times have the weight to make it push/roll its way to the ground.


----------



## Gypo Logger

056 kid said:


> Lets see your 385 stump jumpin vid G.



Here it is! Lol

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=14148&highlight=stump+jumping


----------



## wvlogger

Turkeyslayer said:


> they dont have enough weight to push through the canopy, making for many hung up trees. Where if you have a nice 20"+ tree it will most times have the weight to make it push/roll its way to the ground.



do you all have a lot of this on the 2nd and 3rd growth tree farms?


----------



## 056 kid

Yukonsawman said:


> Here it is! Lol
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=14148&highlight=stump+jumping



there it is haha!!


----------



## GASoline71

John... my favorite is "If I were king of the forrrrrrreeeeeeest!!!" 

Gary


----------



## Gypo Logger

GASoline71 said:


> John... my favorite is "If I were king of the forrrrrrreeeeeeest!!!"
> 
> Gary


 Gary, you just like watching me make an idiot out myself! Lol
Gypo

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wetw8RQGJH0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wetw8RQGJH0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## Turkeyslayer

wvlogger said:


> do you all have a lot of this on the 2nd and 3rd growth tree farms?



Alot of the cutting I do is in hardwood woodlots that have not been harvested in 50+ years. The basal areas are relatively high 30+ m2/ha with the idea being 20 m2/ha. Under these conditions I get alot of crowded, tall 60'+ skinny 6-12" hardwoods to cull, leaving most of the larger trees for future harvest. Makes for alot of hung up trees.


----------



## wvlogger

Turkeyslayer said:


> Alot of the cutting I do is in hardwood woodlots that have not been harvested in 50+ years. The basal areas are relatively high 30+ m2/ha with the idea being 20 m2/ha. Under these conditions I get alot of crowded, tall 60'+ skinny 6-12" hardwoods to cull, leaving most of the larger trees for future harvest. Makes for alot of hung up trees.



sounds about right so you do bassically a thinning


----------



## joesawer

2dogs said:


> bitzercreek1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel the kerf tightening? Are you talking about felling or bucking? As an example yesterday I was bucking up a 3 1/2' redwood about 50' up from the stump where it was about 38" in diameter. The log was laying on a slope and was over a road so the kerf was closing. I reamed the cut constantly ( some guys here call it see-sawing). This kept the kerf open till the log dropped away.
> 
> If you are talking about feeling the kerf close while falling then you are beyond me. If my backcut is closing (in my little world) then the tree is sitting back and no amount of reaming will cause it to open up. In fact it will cause the tree to sit back even further. Unless the tree is a head leaner my backcuts always get wedges. Always. I once had a 4' dbh snag (on the side of a road) get sky bound and I ran out of wedges and had to cut up branches. Now I carry 2 or 4 wedges and have even more in the truck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Southeastern states you can not even buy a wedge unless you mail order it.
> There is a cutting technique used on a lot of trees that involves cutting the first cut (what you would call the gunning cut) into the tree until it starts to move forward and drag on the chain.
> There is a reason these guys use short bars!
> Then they cut a "chip" out and then cut the holding wood. By having a tiny face and a massive deep dutchman it is possible to swing the tree considerably before it moves forward very much.
> This is more of an art than a repeatable science. It works best on young resilient trees. They have no concept of the word brashy. Everything holds to the stump great. There are a lot of crushed saws and trees gone astray using this method.
> But there are life long (small) timber fallers who use no other way.
Click to expand...


----------



## 056 kid

Turkeyslayer said:


> Alot of the cutting I do is in hardwood woodlots that have not been harvested in 50+ years. The basal areas are relatively high 30+ m2/ha with the idea being 20 m2/ha. Under these conditions I get alot of crowded, tall 60'+ skinny 6-12" hardwoods to cull, leaving most of the larger trees for future harvest. Makes for alot of hung up trees.



How does a GOL approach ewlp that situation?

you should try a real narrow face so the hinge breaks as soon as the tree commits and can spin and roll off other trees. thats what I like to do, usually a narrow face with a "shelf" in it that pops the hinge and lets gravity do its thing..


----------



## forestryworks

Gologit said:


> By "chill" do you mean that when you post nonsense we should just all ignore it?
> Sorry, lady, but things don't work that way. And I don't agree to a damn thing.
> 
> You're a state forester and to a lot of people, misguided though they may be, that means you probably know what you're talking about. They'll think that if you say something is good, bad, or indifferent it must be the absolute truth because you're a forester. You do yourself, and everyone else who's foolish enough to believe that you're an expert, a grave disservice with that kind of attitude.
> 
> You say you "cut timber for many years"....most fallers I know have better sense than to say that any one method is the safest. Most fallers I know, while being proud of what they do, have enough wisdom, experience and humility to realize that every tree is different and there isn't any one way that works every time.
> 
> So...you "chill", lady...and leave us to do what we do best.



Well said, sir.


----------



## 2dogs

joesawer said:


> 2dogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the Southeastern states you can not even buy a wedge unless you mail order it.
> There is a cutting technique used on a lot of trees that involves cutting the first cut (what you would call the gunning cut) into the tree until it starts to move forward and drag on the chain.
> There is a reason these guys use short bars!
> Then they cut a "chip" out and then cut the holding wood. By having a tiny face and a massive deep dutchman it is possible to swing the tree considerably before it moves forward very much.
> This is more of an art than a repeatable science. It works best on young resilient trees. They have no concept of the word brashy. Everything holds to the stump great. There are a lot of crushed saws and trees gone astray using this method.
> But there are life long (small) timber fallers who use no other way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you are describing a kerf face. That is a legitimate cut in certain circumstances. I cut a thousand or more small willows during a 4 to 6 week thinning job along the local river and most are just cut with no face at all. I use an angle cut to drop the trunk straight down near my feet. Others get a kerf face and back cut, still other get a conventional or a Humboldt face. A kerf face is another tool for the tool box.
Click to expand...


----------



## 2dogs

joesawer said:


> 2dogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I screwed up while posting so the quoted original post is mine. Don't blame Bitzer if you disagree. LOL
Click to expand...


----------



## joesawer

2dogs said:


> joesawer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you are describing a kerf face. That is a legitimate cut in certain circumstances. I cut a thousand or more small willows during a 4 to 6 week thinning job along the local river and most are just cut with no face at all. I use an angle cut to drop the trunk straight down near my feet. Others get a kerf face and back cut, still other get a conventional or a Humboldt face. A kerf face is another tool for the tool box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similar to a kerf face but with a small undercut they call a chip and it can be 2/3 or even 3/4 of the way through a 24" tree. They often cut until it starts to set down on the saw.
Click to expand...


----------



## hammerlogging

056, joesawyer speaks of the famed side band swarp notch!


----------



## madhatte

Turkeyslayer said:


> I really dislike the little trees as they dont have enough weight to push through the canopy, making for many hung up trees. Where if you have a nice 20"+ tree it will most times have the weight to make it push/roll its way to the ground.




Good point. I do carry a peavey in the truck to help with these situations, though it has its limitations too.


----------



## Turkeyslayer

Peavey's help as well as finding a 10-12' long branch with a ""Y at the top to push and/or apply leverage higher up on the snagged tree.


----------



## 056 kid

hammerlogging said:


> 056, joesawyer speaks of the famed side band swarp notch!



I see that!!! I have "swarped" some big trees. But like he said, its more of an art. Talk about slabbing wood, you had better know what the heck you are doing before you try the side band swarp notch!! i really love it in tall clear white oak that I want side hilled. I have another variation of the side band that I was thinking of when I responded to the chainsaw monkey dudes post about trees getting hung. its not a swing cut, just a cut to tip the tree and rip 2 holding posts on each side of sap wood. itl send a tree flying and let her roll through the thickest of canopys. Like I said, you have to know your wood, and you have to know how much to leave and how much not to leave, but when you start getting it right, it can be a very productive way to fall timber!

BTW sorry about miss spelling sooo many words, I dont know if my hands are growing or what, but I cannot seem to hit the right buttons...........


----------



## 056 kid

joesawer said:


> 2dogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Similar to a kerf face but with a small undercut they call a chip and it can be 2/3 or even 3/4 of the way through a 24" tree. They often cut until it starts to set down on the saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I have learned, ALWAYS make your kirf 1/2 of the tree, then depending on how you want to swing it or if you just want to flop it, usually on a 24''er a 3 to 5 inch chip will do the job. any deeper and you cant get that sweet swing affect. also it seems like deeper than that and you get more chances of slabbing than the desired affect. If you do it right woy will pull NO wood from the butt, the wood will come from the stump...
Click to expand...


----------



## GASoline71

Yukonsawman said:


> Gary, you just like watching me make an idiot out myself! Lol
> Gypo



HAHAHAHA!  Thanks John!

Gary


----------



## 2dogs

056 kid said:


> From what I have learned, ALWAYS make your kirf 1/2 of the tree, then depending on how you want to swing it or if you just want to flop it, usually on a 24''er a 3 to 5 inch chip will do the job. any deeper and you cant get that sweet swing affect. also it seems like deeper than that and you get more chances of slabbing than the desired affect. If you do it right woy will pull NO wood from the butt, the wood will come from the stump...



I only use the kerf face on very small trees that I can push in the direction I want them to fall. I don't have a clue what a swarp and chip is.


----------



## RandyMac

Bore cutting?
How about this, I lifted this from a pinhead article, can't find the pic.

"the Discovery Tree, was stripped of its bark and cut down by ambitious speculators. The tree was the largest in the North Grove, towering 300 feet with a diameter of over 25 feet at the base. Due to its massive size, no saw was large enough to cut through it, so the tree was felled with other tools of that era – long-handled pump augers and wedges. It took five men 22 days to drill all the holes, and a few days later, the 1,244-year-old tree finally toppled over, smashing the earth with an estimated 2,600 tons of earthshaking force. The bark was assembled into the original form of the tree for a traveling exhibit, the fallen trunk was turned into a two-lane bowling alley and bar, and the stump of the majestic tree was planned smooth to serve as a dance floor, prompting John Muir in his anger to say, “Then the vandals danced upon the stump!”


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Bore cutting?
> How about this, I lifted this from a pinhead article, can't find the pic.
> 
> "the Discovery Tree, was stripped of its bark and cut down by ambitious speculators. The tree was the largest in the North Grove, towering 300 feet with a diameter of over 25 feet at the base. Due to its massive size, no saw was large enough to cut through it, so the tree was felled with other tools of that era – long-handled pump augers and wedges. It took five men 22 days to drill all the holes, and a few days later, the 1,244-year-old tree finally toppled over, smashing the earth with an estimated 2,600 tons of earthshaking force. The bark was assembled into the original form of the tree for a traveling exhibit, the fallen trunk was turned into a two-lane bowling alley and bar, and the stump of the majestic tree was planned smooth to serve as a dance floor, prompting John Muir in his anger to say, “Then the vandals danced upon the stump!”



Hmmmmm....I like that..."then the vandals danced upon the stump...". Think a quote from John Muir might make a good signature for a logger?


----------



## slowp

Gologit said:


> Hmmmmm....I like that..."then the vandals danced upon the stump...". Think a quote from John Muir might make a good signature for a logger?



Now everybody will think you are from Idaho. But that wouldn't be a bad thing. 

I wonder what kind of dance? The stump couldn't have been too smooth if they drilled and wedged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tu0PAbW75A


----------



## bitzer

2dogs said:


> bitzercreek1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel the kerf tightening? Are you talking about felling or bucking? As an example yesterday I was bucking up a 3 1/2' redwood about 50' up from the stump where it was about 38" in diameter. The log was laying on a slope and was over a road so the kerf was closing. I reamed the cut constantly ( some guys here call it see-sawing). This kept the kerf open till the log dropped away.
> 
> If you are talking about feeling the kerf close while falling then you are beyond me. If my backcut is closing (in my little world) then the tree is sitting back and no amount of reaming will cause it to open up. In fact it will cause the tree to sit back even further. Unless the tree is a head leaner my backcuts always get wedges. Always. I once had a 4' dbh snag (on the side of a road) get sky bound and I ran out of wedges and had to cut up branches. Now I carry 2 or 4 wedges and have even more in the truck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2Dogs, I was talking about felling a HEAVY headed forward leaner. The crown was about 40' forward of center. The tree was only about 25" DBH or so, but there was a hell of a lot of weight in the crown. Total the tree ended up being about 70'. The wood compresses really easily on those and leaving a thick hinge may help that, but its really hard to get them to swing at all with too much hinge and that one would have piled into a large ash nearby if I was not able to swing it. Like I said tho, thats not regular forest timber. They are just overgrown weeds.
Click to expand...


----------



## 2dogs

bitzercreek1 said:


> 2dogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2Dogs, I was talking about felling a HEAVY headed forward leaner. The crown was about 40' forward of center. The tree was only about 25" DBH or so, but there was a hell of a lot of weight in the crown. Total the tree ended up being about 70'. The wood compresses really easily on those and leaving a thick hinge may help that, but its really hard to get them to swing at all with too much hinge and that one would have piled into a large ash nearby if I was not able to swing it. Like I said tho, thats not regular forest timber. They are just overgrown weeds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Bitzer I was respomding to both you and 056 kid regarding watching the kerf close. Thanks to both of you for expalining what you meant.
> 
> Tuesday I dropped a tree almost exactly like the one you described here. 25" dbh, 70' tall, 40 of crown. It was a heavy leaning half rotten tanoak. I put in a teeny face cut and a normal backcut. The tree started to fall and broke 6" of hinge. I figured it would do this so it was no problem. The biggest problem was it was on a river bank and the footing was terrible. I had to throw the 660 up against the trunk, over my head, to try to get the dogs to bight. The first time I tried I slid down the bank 5 or 6 feet. Then for the backcut I had to put my foot against the trunk to hold myself on the bank and had nowhere to go when the tree fell. It was one of those trees where I had to use my first instinct about how to fall it "safely." It all ended well.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gypo Logger

Since the general theme on this forum lately has been bore cutting and dealing with leaners, I noticed that when taking down a leaner, it's best to use the plunge cut, especially when cutting above shoulder height since the wood is bearing the weight of the saw.

It's just a matter of plunging in thru the heart, cut down and out then cut up till the butt end swings down and away.

It can't be done properly unless the saw is sharp and fast.
When doing this below the shoulders, it's sometimes best to just make one fast cut from bottom to top.

The higher you cut above the shoulders, the greater chance there is of the tree jack knifing back towards the stump area, especially on down slopes.

If this ever happens, just run towards the safe side of the tree it was hung up in. It's just a matter of predicting what will happen before it does and acting accordingly.


----------



## bitzer

2dogs said:


> bitzercreek1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Bitzer I was respomding to both you and 056 kid regarding watching the kerf close. Thanks to both of you for expalining what you meant.
> 
> Tuesday I dropped a tree almost exactly like the one you described here. 25" dbh, 70' tall, 40 of crown. It was a heavy leaning half rotten tanoak. I put in a teeny face cut and a normal backcut. The tree started to fall and broke 6" of hinge. I figured it would do this so it was no problem. The biggest problem was it was on a river bank and the footing was terrible. I had to throw the 660 up against the trunk, over my head, to try to get the dogs to bight. The first time I tried I slid down the bank 5 or 6 feet. Then for the backcut I had to put my foot against the trunk to hold myself on the bank and had nowhere to go when the tree fell. It was one of those trees where I had to use my first instinct about how to fall it "safely." It all ended well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I figured you were talking to both of us. Its tough to describe a situation decently anyway, so I just wanted to clear it up a little.
> 
> That sounds like it was a real PITA. My kinda stuff! ha. ha. Glad it ended well. Sometimes they don't like to leave the stump if I just back cut them and then its more pita for me. I know all about the 6 inch hinge that way. Very little swingin will happen if you need it too, but if your just putting it out front or just getting it on the ground the 6 inch hinge works fine for me too! I've also been cutting more hearts out on those, but its a little sketchy when I'm under the lean like that.
> 
> Do you ever wonder if you get paid enough for this? I do. I wouldn't give it up though either. If I'm not working where I'm currently at, I'll be doing it on my own terms in a few years.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Now everybody will think you are from Idaho. But that wouldn't be a bad thing.
> 
> I wonder what kind of dance? The stump couldn't have been too smooth if they drilled and wedged.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tu0PAbW75A



Yeah, you're right, bad idea. Back to work.


----------



## RandyMac

Bob, wasn't there a photo of bigass stump near Trinidad, with a bunch of school kids on it, a 25 footer or something. I don't have access to my files, crap.
See you in June, Bob?


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Bob, wasn't there a photo of bigass stump near Trinidad, with a bunch of school kids on it, a 25 footer or something. I don't have access to my files, crap.
> See you in June, Bob?



I hope so. June is usually pretty busy but I'll try to be there. Lots of work opening up this year, more than the last couple of years anyway. LOL...this being semi retired is turning into more work than working full time.

I remember the picture. I also remember one of a horse and buggy and some people on a big OG stump. Look for an old book called The Glory Days of Logging.

Gotta run.


----------



## joesawer

hammerlogging said:


> 056, joesawyer speaks of the famed side band swarp notch!





Lol at least now I know what to call it!


----------



## FSburt

Well said Joe I am trying to keep some of these hard learned skills from being lost as well since most of our elder fallers are retired or have moved on to the big timber upstairs. Kinda tough most of our young cutters just don't have the passion to learn the stuff or take some of their own time to educate themselves when they are off the job. Hell when I worked up in Orleans in 89' I went out on my weekends and worked for a faller packing his fuel and extra saw for just the time to watch and listen to him explain what we was doing. This was me second season in the woods and I worked for free. Maybe I am a rarity in loving this kind of work but those times watching and listening to a man who was 74 yrs old packing around a 084 with 42" bar and cutting old growth up around Lightning Ridge off the GO road gave me a real lesson in how to cut efficiently and not waste energy which to me is what all this GOL cutting does by all the extra cuts and wedging when a simple undercut backcut and wedge would send the tree over. 




joesawer said:


> I don't know you and you don't know me so I will give you the benefit of doubt. Are you capable of learning anything or are you to highly educated to learn anything new.
> 
> Lesson one- Learn to use some paragraphs, it will make your posts much easier to read and understand.
> 
> My grand father was cutting timber in the Appalachians when the transition from misery whip and ax to chainsaw took place.
> When the chainsaw first came on the scene they started using bore cuts. My bore cut training traces its roots back to the first power saws to come to the eastern US.
> Some time after WWII the old tried and true timber falling technology in the south eastern US was lost. It was replaced by Asplundh tree service technology, mechanized harvesting and some kind of kerf face, cut and hope technique.
> The technology that came from Europe to the US kept moving west and was only found in the western US, when they reinvented the wheel and called it new and introduced it to those who had lost it the first time. But it was promoted as the very best and safest way to cut trees in virtually all situations.
> It can cover for some mistakes or lack of training, but it is far from the end all, be all of timber falling.
> 
> As for driving wedges into the kerf of a tree that has been cut up but still has a strap holding the back, it is an exercise in stupidity. And anyone endorsing it is just showing off their ignorance.


----------



## Veteran

FSburt said:


> Well said Joe I am trying to keep some of these hard learned skills from being lost as well since most of our elder fallers are retired or have moved on to the big timber upstairs. Kinda tough most of our young cutters just don't have the passion to learn the stuff or take some of their own time to educate themselves when they are off the job. Hell when I worked up in Orleans in 89' I went out on my weekends and worked for a faller packing his fuel and extra saw for just the time to watch and listen to him explain what we was doing. This was me second season in the woods and I worked for free. Maybe I am a rarity in loving this kind of work but those times watching and listening to a man who was 74 yrs old packing around a 084 with 42" bar and cutting old growth up around Lightning Ridge off the GO road gave me a real lesson in how to cut efficiently and not waste energy which to me is what all this GOL cutting does by all the extra cuts and wedging when a simple undercut backcut and wedge would send the tree over.



Oreleans is easy work in Hoopa in 64


----------



## FSburt

My uncle worked up there in the 60-70's. Pretty wild stories of the logging shows they had going on up there during those times. What part of Hoopa where you working on the West side or east side. They had some big timber on the rez but got cut out fairly heavy when the mill was going strong. My foreman was from Hoopa so he gave me the lowdown on what areas to steer clear of and what bars to stay out of especially for a out of town indian.


----------



## Slamm

I guess, I'm with the bore cutting group ..... however unpopular that is, LOL.

I worked with a good cutter that knew about 50 different ways to get a tree on the ground, and the underlying result in high quality hardwoods was ripped out sides and questionable placement. Now I know that crap happens and it happens to everyone, but bore cutting gets quality wood down consistently without damaging valueable wood in the process and I don't see how some of you consider it more dangerous??

I started up in Wisconsin and those that I worked for and learned from said learn the bore cut and get good at it and some of the variations there of, and you won't need anything else. I have done that and I feel I can keep up with most anyone in the woods and my stumps and butts look a lot better than those that stump jump and try to speed through the cut and then wonder where its going or rip the side out of a good walnut or white oak and such.

I don't see where the bore cut requires anymore cutting or wedging than any other cut and if it does then it is only by a small amount and for the extra "wasted" time you get the satisfaction of complete or certainly more control of when the tree finally goes over, especially during windy conditions or improper read on where it wanted to go.

My current cutter bore cuts and has only used wedges 3 times in about 290,000 board feet, so I don't understand why everyone thinks you have to use wedges just because you bore cut.

Very interesting topic though, always like discussing it,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

Spending a day in the shoes of a cascades or steep terrain faller would possibly change your opinion. . .

& no, the river banks arent considered steep


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Spending a day in the shoes of a cascades or steep terrain faller would possibly change your opinion. . .
> 
> & no, the river banks arent considered steep



Junior, I have logged in the hills of Wisconsin, they are as steep any anything anyone else has logged, just not as tall. A good method is a good method regardless of the steepness of the dirt around the stump.

Later,

Sam


----------



## hammerlogging

Slamm said:


> Junior, I have logged in the hills of Wisconsin, they are as steep any anything anyone else has logged, just not as tall. A good method is a good method regardless of the steepness of the dirt around the stump.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam



I've been on both sides of this game. I was trained by a GOL eastern hardwood faller. And the differnece between some steep ground and always ####ing steep is huge. I'm going to tell you my take. If its a veneer red oak, or cherry or walnut or whatever big money tree over 30" or more on the stump and has got a serious head lean the way I'm falling it, yeah, I'll bore it from both sides. If it has a fork I have to lay flat, yes, I'll open face it. I'll be damned if I'm gonna bore cut every ####in tree from both sides. You do realize that if you want production you lay them sidehill. And that would mean boring the underside over your head, over and over. And lots of dancing around the stump. I run 32" bars. If I'm rolling throught the timber like a mother####er I'm gonna humboldt and backcut every ####ing one of them. I'm gonna get rid of my underside from the uphill side however I can. And since the ####### fellerbuncher (timbco self leveler) gets all the good ground, you're damn right its steep, all of it. And I'll give credit to some of these AS folks for helping my reformation. And some fallers I get to work with who work all over the country, with others from all over the country. Even the kid gets his due credit, but don't tell him .

Open face bore cutting is good cause every tree is the same, its safe, etc., but it is NOT as fast. And that is $/ton. And thats just business. I understand your point, but I want you to understand both points. See what you can do if you humboldt to 100% of the diameter, dutchman 1/2 the underside, siswheel the uphill side, and backcut. Damn she'll pull around, and no splinter pull. Just promise you'll tell me when you think "####, never seen one pull like that"

Onward brave soldiers.


----------



## slowp

This is the photo I used to pack around when I worked in Wisconsin. I'd pull it out when the loggers would complain about the ground being steep. I wish it showed more of the unit below the landing. One guy broke a hip on this setting, you'd be walking the boundary and the logs would shift and start rolling to the bottom, when nobody else was around. The uphill part shown was the flattest section. 







It was a steep, long slope. The tailhold was on a ridge that was on the other side of a creek.


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## Slamm

hammerlogging said:


> I've been on both sides of this game. I was trained by a GOL eastern hardwood faller. And the differnece between some steep ground and always ####ing steep is huge. I'm going to tell you my take. If its a veneer red oak, or cherry or walnut or whatever big money tree over 30" or more on the stump and has got a serious head lean the way I'm falling it, yeah, I'll bore it from both sides. If it has a fork I have to lay flat, yes, I'll open face it. I'll be damned if I'm gonna bore cut every ####in tree from both sides. You do realize that if you want production you lay them sidehill. And that would mean boring the underside over your head, over and over. And lots of dancing around the stump. I run 32" bars. If I'm rolling throught the timber like a mother####er I'm gonna humboldt and backcut every ####ing one of them. I'm gonna get rid of my underside from the uphill side however I can. And since the ####### fellerbuncher (timbco self leveler) gets all the good ground, you're damn right its steep, all of it. And I'll give credit to some of these AS folks for helping my reformation. And some fallers I get to work with who work all over the country, with others from all over the country. Even the kid gets his due credit, but don't tell him .
> 
> Open face bore cutting is good cause every tree is the same, its safe, etc., but it is NOT as fast. And that is $/ton. And thats just business. I understand your point, but I want you to understand both points. See what you can do if you humboldt to 100% of the diameter, dutchman 1/2 the underside, siswheel the uphill side, and backcut. Damn she'll pull around, and no splinter pull. Just promise you'll tell me when you think "####, never seen one pull like that"
> 
> Onward brave soldiers.



Why is it everyone keeps saying you have to bore in from both sides with the bore cut?? Does cutting with some other method suddenly make your bar longer?

If I can get through the whole tree from one side, I don't walk around the tree. I stand on one side and cut the whole thing down.



> See what you can do if you humboldt to 100% of the diameter, dutchman 1/2 the underside, siswheel the uphill side, and backcut.



I guess I would sure like to see how all of the above described cutting is going to be faster than just simply a shallow face and then boring out the back.

And on our big hardwoods there isn't going to be any "faster" humboldt cutting to 100% of the diameter, as we cut too low to the ground to humboldt anything if it isn't on steeper ground or cut higher up or you are sure cutting into the biggest nastiest part of the tree (the swells) and doing a lot of "precise" cutting in that area to boot.

I never understood the hinge cutting to 1/3 or 1/2 the diameter stuff. First you are making your hinge in the weaker wood. You are double cutting a lot of wood which is a lot slower (nobody ever admits that), and the mills don't like the short boards on that side.

I love topics like this where there are two sides that for the life of them can't see how the other side is faster or better, LOL.

I see bore cutting as a method that severs the stump wood with the least amount of inches cut other than a shallow notch and coming in from the back, and actually bore cutting is the same inches, except you are just cutting from the hinge out. There aren't anymore "extra" cuts needed than with any other cutting method, and your only "loss" is that you have to cut a little slower with the initial plunge cut.

That being said, in a lot of normal sized trees (for around here), I do what I call swing cutting where I do "bore out" the center but I never cut with the back/top of the bar. I use the dogs for everything and it is quite fast, as you are always using the bottom of the bar, but you have to really know where your tip is. It is also just as "safe" or if you don't like the word safe, it is just as predictable as the bore cut, because you have gutted the inside of the tree and if you are good, also thinned the hinge in the middle to prevent splitting or slabbing the butt.

None of what I described above requires some inherent use of wedges, as a knee jerk sollution to a lean. If you bore cut a tree and it requires wedges, then it likely was going to require wedges with any other method ..... or a skidder, LOL. Like I said the guy (Bert) I learned to bore cut from just recently cut at or over 290,000 board feet and used wedges 3 times (a choker setter had to go get them for him since he doesn't even carry any) and a skidder maybe 3 more times, and he put just about every tree where I wanted him to put them (as the owner and skidder driver of the operation). I have skidded behind guys who cut with all of these other methods in their back of tricks, and while the wood may get laid where it is suppose to at times, the butts and stumps look like some farmer cut them, fiber pulled and sides ripped out and never as safe. They always have some excuse:

Oh the wind caught it.
Oh I had to race the cut and my saw wasn't fast enough.
Oh the butt was rotten and wouldn't hold.
I din't judget the lean right.

I would drive up with the skidder and never really be sure that the tree was not going to fall on me, and these are well respected cutters. Not some rookie.

With the bore cut and a few modifications and tricks you can put most any tree right were you want it, and do it just as quickly in the long run with higher quality results than a lot of other ways. It is safer for the humans and machines involved and it is "safer" for the wood in the tree.

I don't wonder is some of the non-agreement comes from some here are cutting softwood or on the west coast where for all practical purposes it seems that fiber pull and crappy looking butts is a non issue. Last night I watched Axmen on Netflix on the computer with the family, holly cow, about every other tree is high cut and fiber pulled with chainsaws laying around the stump while the people running like mad, LOL. If that is the excitment that I was to be looking for in my life, I will start with other less predictable methods. I saw that they have a machine that the first thing they do is cutt the crappy butt off of the log, that is the first thing, waste of time and waste of wood, but I thought that was kinda funny an operation to simply rid of the tree/log of the crappy looking but left by the cutters, and you can't tell me, that to some extent standard practice out there because several outfitts were doing it.

So that is fine, for arguments sake, I'll call the bore cut a little slower, but the results are of a much higher quality on average, when this method is used by those that know how to take advantage of its benefits (and not just for safety's sake), and I'll accept that your various 50 different ways to get a tree to the ground is faster, provided a "farmer" isn't running the saw, LOL.

That is my opinion,

Sam


----------



## forestryworks

Slamm said:


> I never understood the hinge cutting to 1/3 or 1/2 the diameter stuff.



In my opinion you want to maximize the width of your holding wood.


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## Slamm

forestryworks said:


> In my opinion you want to maximize the width of your holding wood.



I understand, but I obviously don't, and have had zero problems, without having to double cut the same butt/stump wood. That is just my experience.

Example, on a lot of the stuff I see you cutting, I wouldn't go near as deep. I don't care that you do, because that is that way you like to do it, but I don't think you are buying anything by doing it.

You actually have a lot less control front to back when you cut a hughe notch as the hinge is now 4-12" deep into the diameter and therefore has less control of the tree going over backwards if that is a problem, without lossing much of anything side to side.

If I screw up and "split" a butt where I made the hinge, big deal, I just slabbed off a little of the sap wood. I can still count on 1 hand the amount of times I have done that and it hasn't been in the last 2-3 years.

If those that cut the hinge to 1/3-1/2 of the tree screw up, they just ruined the tree and/or got one heck of a barber chair, as a door prize.

My opinion,

Sam


----------



## Gypo Logger

I've never found that plunge cuts were necessary unless dealing with leaners, although sometimes I'd plunge out the heart a bit thru the uncut on a valuable stem, just to ensure no fibre pull.
Most fibre pull and butt shatter is do to cuts not meeting, unintentional dutchman, chainsaw too slow or dull and the faller taking the saw out of the cut too soon.
Once the tree is committed to it's intended direction of fall there is nothing wrong with blasting thru the remaining holding wood or at least swing it somewhat by cutting off a corner.
This may sound dangerous to some, but you see alot of fallers lingering dangerously close to the stump as the tree falls. If you're gonna hang around the stump as the tree falls you may as well be doing something before you retreat on the escape route.
A committed tree is a committed tree, so cutting any remaining wood will insure that the tree will roll. With hardwoods this method ensures the least possible damage to the tree and surrounding trees.
John


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## 056 kid

Slamm I think you are IN farmer logger territory. I believe that if you went to either coast and found the high ballers, you'd get your tush stomped, chewed, and spit out in a big hurry...

That's just my opinion. . .


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Slamm I think you are IN farmer logger territory. I believe that if you went to either coast and found the high ballers, you'd get your tush stomped, chewed, and spit out in a big hurry...
> 
> That's just my opinion. . .



Thank you, for letting me know that is your opinion, that way I know how much weight to give it 0 .

I've got enough pics and videos to show we don't cut like a "farmer". If I went west I would adjust my cutting as needed to make them happy, but for where I'm at and for who I am cutting and skidding for, they really, really like the looks of things, and our production is on par with anyone else in similar timber if not much higher, so your opinion however wrong it is, doesn't hold much if any weight.

Later,

Sam


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## hammerlogging

Slamm, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that I can get more sidehill with other methods than with a shallow open face bore cut method. Therefore, I can get more trees sidehill with other techniques. I can get more trees to go against thier lean manipulating my hinge and backcut with other techniques. So its faster. And trees/day is way faster, because with all my stems layed out nice a parallel in lead and sidehill I just have to go "over there" to top them rather than "way the #### down there" to top them. 

Yes, you can get lower stumps with conventional or open faces on flat ground, but not on steep ground. Plus,the action of the butt off the stump on the humboldt is most satisfying, esp. when it comes to spanning steep draws in SMZs- by getting the butt to hit first you save out stem that would definately break otherwise, and for jumping the butt downhill to get the stem to lay more sidehill, and on and on.

I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you are giving the other methods their due credit. I'll defend the merits of open face bore cutting where appropriate, esp. for training or improving fallers, but once that method is mastered its time to move on to more technique.


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## DangerTree

Clearly plunge cuts ARE A GOOD tool in your bag. The original question was how to do one. Simple, to avoid kick back start the cut on the bottom of the bar at the tip and as the cut progresses roll the the tip into the cut until pointed in the direction of cut. That simple -no magic.


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## floyd

Here's the thing that bugs me about GOL



Logging is not a game.


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## Slamm

hammerlogging said:


> Slamm, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that I can get more sidehill with other methods than with a shallow open face bore cut method. Therefore, I can get more trees sidehill with other techniques. I can get more trees to go against thier lean manipulating my hinge and backcut with other techniques. So its faster. And trees/day is way faster, because with all my stems layed out nice a parallel in lead and sidehill I just have to go "over there" to top them rather than "way the #### down there" to top them.
> 
> Yes, you can get lower stumps with conventional or open faces on flat ground, but not on steep ground. Plus,the action of the butt off the stump on the humboldt is most satisfying, esp. when it comes to spanning steep draws in SMZs- by getting the butt to hit first you save out stem that would definately break otherwise, and for jumping the butt downhill to get the stem to lay more sidehill, and on and on.
> 
> I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you are giving the other methods their due credit. I'll defend the merits of open face bore cutting where appropriate, esp. for training or improving fallers, but once that method is mastered its time to move on to more technique.



Hammerlogging, we are good, and it is a good discussion. I am not against other methods, I guess I/we have just figured out how to get done what we need to get done with the borecut and different variations of it. I honestly don't know what the GOL teaches about the borecut as I have never been to one, but maybe it isn't quite how we do it. For instance, like I said before I can and do routinely "gut out" a tree and will never use a plunge cut or the top of the bar, yet I can leave a backstrap and release the tree exactly when I want to. As to directional falling with it, if we need more "pull" we under cut which ever side of the hinge a little and get the tree to sit on that side a little more then cut the backstrap from the opposite side and she goes where you want it to go.

Anyways, it has just always seems interesting to me that almost like a knee jerk reaction there is an almost hatred of the bore cut, and then some weird explainations as to why it is so slow, when from how I look at it, it is or can be faster and safer than several of the more loved methods.

Like this T cut and V cut that Gasoline's chart shows?? How is that not cutting from multiple sides and multiple cuts, how is it safer or faster than a bore cut, that is not to say it doesn't work, but if I'm cutting down a $1,000+ tree, I'd sure like to know there isn't any way in heck there is going to be any fiber pull or chance of splitting, you can get that guaranteed with a bore cut, but not so much with various T and V cutting methods ......... my opinion.

Sam


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## hammerlogging

10/4 bud.


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## 056 kid

trees out west are slightly larger. . . Cutting humboldt stumps throwing timber side hill dosent waste wood on the stump and is quicker than you make it out to be. I can cut a stump about 5 inches on the up hill side with a humboldt pretty easily. 5 inches is pretty darn low imo. 


Its :deadhorse: with some though.


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## MURT

Hey I've tramped 48 states and most of Canada at last count so I think I can give some reference here...... there's steep hills in the East Coast and steep Hills in the West....yes there are cliffs out East, a cliff is a 90 degree slope, you cant get much steeper than that.
One other thing that doesn't vary coast-to-coast is that there's ignorant local types with small penises who think their way is the best and try to make up for their inferiority by getting all agressive and making napoleon-complex comments like "come over here and you'll get your ass kicked by the loggers HERE blah blah blah". Show some maturity, folks. Nobody's getting beat up over the internet.

It's kind of like when people say we're the greatest country in the world. Sure we very well could be but have you ever even been to another country? If not, how do ya know they aren't better? What's your frame of reference? So don't make assumptions unless you've worked east coast too......


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## Metals406

An interesting perspective. . . Not saying he's right or wrong. My bro is a lineman, and they were trained to small notch when clearing.

To each his own I say.

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----------



## Slamm

Metals406, that video sure explains, the notch issue from my point of view to a T.

Thanks,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

MURT said:


> Hey I've tramped 48 states and most of Canada at last count so I think I can give some reference here...... there's steep hills in the East Coast and steep Hills in the West....yes there are cliffs out East, a cliff is a 90 degree slope, you cant get much steeper than that.
> *One other thing that doesn't vary coast-to-coast is that there's ignorant local types with small penises who think their way is the best and try to make up for their inferiority by getting all agressive and making napoleon-complex comments like "come over here and you'll get your ass kicked by the loggers HERE blah blah blah". Show some maturity, folks. Nobody's getting beat up over the internet.*
> 
> It's kind of like when people say we're the greatest country in the world. Sure we very well could be but have you ever even been to another country? If not, how do ya know they aren't better? What's your frame of reference? So don't make assumptions unless you've worked east coast too......



You rock! lmao. . . 


wrong. No ones getting beat up, they are getting out worked LOL.


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> Metals406, that video sure explains, the notch issue from my point of view to a T.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sam



Like I said, I say we give grown men the choice to operate the way they chose. . . I won't enslave others, and I sure as hell wouldn't let someone enslave me.

Daniel uses a lot of techniques, and that's one of them. You can see in his video that the hinge was sufficient for the spar.

I personally want to have as many tricks in my bag as I can get, so I can employ them when needed.

The old saying, "one trick pony" is around for a reason.


----------



## 056 kid

Daniel talks about common sence. To me cutting a 1/3 or a tad more deep face with about 35degrees on it and a regular back cut and likely omitting the wedging and in the end taking less energy to accomplish, taking less time, and being just as affective. Thats just my take on it, less energy spent is a good thing!


----------



## RandyMac

enough already, have a shot of brown liquor and find something to do ferchristsake.


----------



## Metals406

RandyMac said:


> enough already, have a shot of brown liquor and find something to do ferchristsake.



:yourock::yourock::agree2:
:deadhorse::deadhorse:


----------



## Gypo Logger

I'm not really sure if I fully understand the use of of the plunge cut if it's used on every tree. Does this mean the saw is plunged behind the hinge and then you cut yourself out to the back of the tree.
I've tried that, but get clostrafobic as it takes a bit longer to pull the saw out as opposed to cutting in toward the hinge.
The tree should let loose really fast though after cutting yourself out, but I always have visions of getting pinched and losing the saw.
Plunging is nothing more than effectively reducing the diameter of the tree, however, this can also be accomplished by cutting "ears" or making your corners a "V" on each side from the hinge to where the backcut will start.
I think it all comes down to dumping the stem as fast as you can with no damage to the butt.
A fast saw is your best friend.
John


----------



## RandyMac

Hmmmmm, John.


Maybe a story of you and Gary bore cutting a Sitka snag.


----------



## Gypo Logger

RandyMac said:


> Hmmmmm, John.
> 
> 
> Maybe a story of you and Gary bore cutting a Sitka snag.



How big is this Sitka snag gonna be Randy? Should I bring any bum waud with me? Lol
John


----------



## RandyMac

Yukonsawman said:


> How big is this Sitka snag gonna be Randy? Should I bring any bum waud with me? Lol
> John



72*"* gooseneck on a bluff

Gas is bringin' lunch


----------



## stihl 440

caricob said:


> I get the feeling that the folks bashing the bore cut have probably never tried it or don't know what they are talking about.



Totally agree with you there....that and when they bash pounding wedges in a bored tree to preload it in one direction vs. the other....when you log and have to cut around houses and trees and high voltage powerlines for 10 years all day everyday...and your job depends on if you hit something......you let me know if you're still working. I've shut a couple cocky kids up real quick. One kid was saying some of the stuff im reading on here..like saying ohhh..pounding wedges in a tree that is bored with just a strap is soooo stupid...so i looked at them...said ok...i dropped my saw where i stood..took off my helmet....and said there you go...now IM gonna watch....(by this time his mood was starting to change)...I was swinging/throwing trees that where hanging over the wires and laying them almost parallel to the wires all day...never touched them......NOW it was his turn (ya know since he knew sooo much more than me)....so he grabbed the saw and he went over there and threw in a face and bored it and cut the strap and....boom...right on the wires it landed.....well with the 5 or 10 thousand dollar power company bill the boss got...he gave the kid got a couple weeks off work without pay....the boss asked me why i let him cut it...and i told him that the kid told me i was doin it wrong and he could do better...so i let him...and the boss was like well...dont let that SOB cut ANYTHING that close to wires or a house again......i said ok....and the boss was like yea i know where you where comming from though..he is a cocky SOB and hopefully that will make him learn something...maybe next time he'll just keep his mouth shut more often...LOL


----------



## stihl 440

Yukonsawman said:


> A fast saw is your best friend.
> John



You're exactly right there John....now as far as high production hardwood and softwood falling goes is get it off the stump and on the ground as fast and as safe as possible....take some short cuts where you can and you wont get hurt...take too many and get killed... Is your life worth it?....I would think not...but thats just me..... Main saws over here are 460's, 066's, 385/390xp, 372xp.....ported of course....


----------



## atvguns

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----------



## Thorcw

That is a good example of a barber chair


----------



## slowp

I have used it once so far. It was a small hemlock bent over the road and I figured it would barberchair. So I bore cut it. It worked.


----------



## GASoline71

RandyMac said:


> Gas is bringin' lunch



Elk chili, and some PBR.

Gary


----------



## Gologit

GASoline71 said:


> Elk chili, and some PBR.
> 
> Gary



Save me a place...I'll bring the Sourdough French bread


----------



## forestryworks

I've done plenty of bore cuts at the stump, but I only use them for heavy leaners to the lay. Not that log quality matters much in a hazard tree, but I know when one is needed, and it's not often. 

Bore cutting when bucking out binds, sure, use it there as well.

Bore cutting has a place, just not every tree IMO.

Every tree is different. So is the placement of your holding wood as well.

Holding wood placement and face cut depths and bore cuts to set up holding wood and backstraps are all variables, they change with the tree.


----------



## GASoline71

Gologit said:


> Save me a place...I'll bring the Sourdough French bread



Done deal Bob... 



forestryworks said:


> Bore cutting has a place, just not every tree IMO.



Yup... and I'm done yakkin' with cats on here that think that just because you don't use it for every friggin' tree you don't have a clue, or have never "used" it.

I LOL every time I read people "defend" borecuttin' every tree.

Gary


----------



## Gologit

forestryworks said:


> I've done plenty of bore cuts at the stump, but I only use them for heavy leaners to the lay. Not that log quality matters much in a hazard tree, but I know when one is needed, and it's not often.
> 
> Bore cutting when bucking out binds, sure, use it there as well.
> 
> Bore cutting has a place, just not every tree IMO.
> 
> Every tree is different. So is the placement of your holding wood as well.
> 
> Holding wood placement and face cut depths and bore cuts to set up holding wood and backstraps are all variables, they change with the tree.



Well said. I've used the bore cut, I'll probably use it again. But not unless it's called for.


----------



## Gologit

stihl 440 said:


> .I was swinging/throwing trees that where hanging over the wires and laying them almost parallel to the wires all day...never touched them......NOW it was his turn (ya know since he knew sooo much more than me)....so he grabbed the saw and he went over there and threw in a face and bored it and cut the strap and....boom...right on the wires it landed.....well with the 5 or 10 thousand dollar power company bill the boss got...he gave the kid got a couple weeks off work without pay....the boss asked me why i let him cut it...and i told him that the kid told me i was doin it wrong and he could do better...so i let him...and the boss was like well...dont let that SOB cut ANYTHING that close to wires or a house again......i said ok....and the boss was like yea i know where you where comming from though..he is a cocky SOB and hopefully that will make him learn something...maybe next time he'll just keep his mouth shut more often...LOL



You must have a real great boss. If I had a cutter who purposely let some rookie fall a tree into powerlines and it cost me "five or ten thousand dollars" I don't think I'd be that understanding. I think I'd have wonder why anybody in their right mind would allow somebody who really didn't know any better to do something so damn dangerous.
Logging in your part of the country must pay a heck of lot better than it does out here if your boss can afford to spend money like that. If one of my guys did something like that I'd have to figure out whether I could afford to keep him or not. And I think I know what the answer would be.


----------



## lfnh

So, when did the bore cut first start getting used and where ?

I don't recall anyone using it in the 60's.

Just wondering. Not trying to barb this thread.


----------



## DangerTree

Gologit said:


> You must have a real great boss. If I had a cutter who purposely let some rookie fall a tree into powerlines and it cost me "five or ten thousand dollars" I don't think I'd be that understanding. I think I'd have wonder why anybody in their right mind would allow somebody who really didn't know any better to do something so damn dangerous.
> Logging in your part of the country must pay a heck of lot better than it does out here if your boss can afford to spend money like that. If one of my guys did something like that I'd have to figure out whether I could afford to keep him or not. And I think I know what the answer would be.


I'll second that brother! Fired out of a cannon!! Both of them for bad judgement. Safety always comes before bravado. Around power lines and houses extra control measures are needed.


----------



## Gypo Logger

lfnh said:


> So, when did the bore cut first start getting used and where ?
> 
> I don't recall anyone using it in the 60's.
> 
> Just wondering. Not trying to barb this thread.


 Good question, but not sure. I think it was introduced by GOL.
Seldom do I use it and I'm not saying it's bad or unsafe. It seems to be over done though. It all depends on where you learned your techniques.

I can't see where bore cutting can give more control over a straight standing stem or one with a slight lean, any more than a traditional cut.

Bore cutting may prevent barber chair more for an inexperienced cutter than an inexperienced cutter using traditional techniques though, especially on leaners.
John


----------



## 2dogs

stihl 440 said:


> Totally agree with you there....that and when they bash pounding wedges in a bored tree to preload it in one direction vs. the other....when you log and have to cut around houses and trees and high voltage powerlines for 10 years all day everyday...and your job depends on if you hit something......you let me know if you're still working. I've shut a couple cocky kids up real quick. One kid was saying some of the stuff im reading on here..like saying ohhh..pounding wedges in a tree that is bored with just a strap is soooo stupid...so i looked at them...said ok...i dropped my saw where i stood..took off my helmet....and said there you go...now IM gonna watch....(by this time his mood was starting to change)...I was swinging/throwing trees that where hanging over the wires and laying them almost parallel to the wires all day...never touched them......NOW it was his turn (ya know since he knew sooo much more than me)....so he grabbed the saw and he went over there and threw in a face and bored it and cut the strap and....boom...right on the wires it landed.....well with the 5 or 10 thousand dollar power company bill the boss got...he gave the kid got a couple weeks off work without pay....the boss asked me why i let him cut it...and i told him that the kid told me i was doin it wrong and he could do better...so i let him...and the boss was like well...dont let that SOB cut ANYTHING that close to wires or a house again......i said ok....and the boss was like yea i know where you where comming from though..he is a cocky SOB and hopefully that will make him learn something...maybe next time he'll just keep his mouth shut more often...LOL



Really? You let a kid fall a tree into power lines just to prove a point. I would have fired you right then and there. Both of us would have been sued by the Public Utility Commission to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars too. You would also be in jail within an hour. Or maybe you are just a BSer. 

Go back to the chainsaw forum.


----------



## Gypo Logger

RandyMac said:


> 72*"* gooseneck on a bluff
> 
> Gas is bringin' lunch



No problem, I'll bring the explosives unless there's a bear living in it.
We may as well have a lumberjacks picnic. Lol
Lets see who can cut a cookie off the stump the fastest with a 36" bar.
John


----------



## ChrisF

stihl 440 said:


> Totally agree with you there....that and when they bash pounding wedges in a bored tree to preload it in one direction vs. the other....when you log and have to cut around houses and trees and high voltage powerlines for 10 years all day everyday...and your job depends on if you hit something......you let me know if you're still working. I've shut a couple cocky kids up real quick. One kid was saying some of the stuff im reading on here..like saying ohhh..pounding wedges in a tree that is bored with just a strap is soooo stupid...so i looked at them...said ok...i dropped my saw where i stood..took off my helmet....and said there you go...now IM gonna watch....(by this time his mood was starting to change)...I was swinging/throwing trees that where hanging over the wires and laying them almost parallel to the wires all day...never touched them......NOW it was his turn (ya know since he knew sooo much more than me)....so he grabbed the saw and he went over there and threw in a face and bored it and cut the strap and....boom...right on the wires it landed.....well with the 5 or 10 thousand dollar power company bill the boss got...he gave the kid got a couple weeks off work without pay....the boss asked me why i let him cut it...and i told him that the kid told me i was doin it wrong and he could do better...so i let him...and the boss was like well...dont let that SOB cut ANYTHING that close to wires or a house again......i said ok....and the boss was like yea i know where you where comming from though..he is a cocky SOB and hopefully that will make him learn something...maybe next time he'll just keep his mouth shut more often...LOL



I call bull on this one, dude. What the heck kind of professional would do such a thing? Ever?


----------



## 056 kid

atvguns said:


> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2YAf61zz5VU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2YAf61zz5VU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



I like how he quits as soon as he hears the cracking sound


----------



## Gypo Logger

Here's some links that aptly describe the bore cut. The only thing I can see wrong as I think it would be harder to plunge in behind the notch on the same plain as the undercut, although not that big of an issue on a heavy leaner.
If I plunge behind the undercut a bar width, I'll finish off by cutting towards the plunge from the back of the tree. Far less chance of being pinched.
If you got pinched in the method described, there would be slim chance of driving a wedge to lift the tree off the bar.

http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_fell_tree_opennotchandbore/

http://web.extension.illinois.edu/f...ng/UIUC_Tims_Tips_Chainsaw_Safety/backcut.pdf


Looks like some pretty ugly stumps here:

http://www.ehow.com/how_5834287_bore-fell-leaning-tree.html


----------



## Gypo Logger

056 kid said:


> I like how he quits as soon as he hears the cracking sound



That was a Ripleys, wonder what he did wrong, probably a dutchman. The tree didn't look like it had a heavy lean.
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

Lets just beat up on these guys that are addicted to the plunge cut. Lol
Although this guy is just a casual user and read some book, it would have taken him 60 seconds instead of 5 minutes if he had of simply severered the tree from the stump with one cut and a wedge or no wedge, then plunged in over his head and cut himself out and the tree would have likely rolled off.
The point is, he felt comfortable with what he was doing, but why did he keep setting the brake?
John

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mpgKTXNZMao?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mpgKTXNZMao?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## 2dogs

Yukonsawman said:


> Lets just beat up on these guys that are addicted to the plunge cut. Lol
> Although this guy is just a casual user and read some book, it would have taken him 60 seconds instead of 5 minutes if he had of simply severered the tree from the stump with one cut and a wedge or no wedge, then plunged in over his head and cut himself out and the tree would have likely rolled off.
> The point is, he felt comfortable with what he was doing, but why did he keep setting the brake?
> John
> 
> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mpgKTXNZMao?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mpgKTXNZMao?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



Well the tree is still hung up. I guess he ran out of recording time. Good thing cause I lost interest anyway. Though I wonder why he wedged at all. Like you said, a homeowner in his backyard.


----------



## Gypo Logger

2dogs said:


> Well the tree is still hung up. I guess he ran out of recording time. Good thing cause I lost interest anyway. Though I wonder why he wedged at all. Like you said, a homeowner in his backyard.


 Ya, he was trying to treat it as a standing tree, however, the whole mechanics are different due to the weight of the tree being born on the tree it was hanging up in.
John


----------



## 2dogs

Yukonsawman said:


> Ya, he was trying to treat it as a standing tree, however, the whole mechanics are different due to the weight of the tree being born on the tree it was hanging up in.
> John



Yeah but it was cool when he yelled "TREE FALLING!" and the tree fell three feet.


----------



## 056 kid

It is fine with me if the homeowners do it. I really dont care who does it. I know my tree wile likely hit the deck faster


----------



## Gypo Logger

These plunge guys take the job quite seriously.
John

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P088bMP7jq0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P088bMP7jq0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## 2dogs

Almost got the sattelite dish. I do like his boots though. I'm wearing my Vikings right now.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Almost got the sattelite dish. I do like his boots though. I'm wearing my Vikings right now.



In the house?


----------



## Gypo Logger

2dogs said:


> Almost got the sattelite dish. I do like his boots though. I'm wearing my Vikings right now.


 Ya, I could have used a pair of those just now. Had to get water and break thru the ice with an axe at -22. Got 4 jugs, going back for four more. Nice water though. Hardly any mineral.
John


----------



## Cedarkerf

After reading all this boring cutting thought Id mess with it on a couple big Cottan woods im dropping. Ive used boring on heavy leaning doug firs works as advertised. Used it on a 38" back leaner and learned the fallowing.

1 Dont use it on back leaning Cotton wood. Set my face. set my hinge and in the process of cutting back to the strap with at least 10-12" of diameter left the thing sat back. Cotton wood aint strong enough to hold itself up. Fortunately I was watching the kerf closely and the 066 had enough power to keep my self out of a pinch.

2 Pounding wedges on a tree with a back strap is indeed idiotic lesson taken. Would much rather start my standard back cut put in wedges as soon as bar is clear and progressivly pound them in.

3 To say the bore method is the absolute safest way to cut any tree is arrogont and rediculous.

4 Thank goodness Im getting paid by fixed bid and open ended time frame and not by production so I can waste my time fooling around with this,

Will I use the bore method again prolly some day but im sure it will be on rare occasion.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Cedarkerf said:


> After reading all this boring cutting thought Id mess with it on a couple big Cottan woods im dropping. Ive used boring on heavy leaning doug firs works as advertised. Used it on a 38" back leaner and learned the fallowing.
> 
> 1 Dont use it on back leaning Cotton wood. Set my face. set my hinge and in the process of cutting back to the strap with at least 10-12" of diameter left the thing sat back. Cotton wood aint strong enough to hold itself up. Fortunately I was watching the kerf closely and the 066 had enough power to keep my self out of a pinch.
> 
> 2 Pounding wedges on a tree with a back strap is indeed idiotic lesson taken. Would much rather start my standard back cut put in wedges as soon as bar is clear and progressivly pound them in.
> 
> 3 To say the bore method is the absolute safest way to cut any tree is arrogont and rediculous.
> 
> 4 Thank goodness Im getting paid by fixed bid and open ended time frame and not by production so I can waste my time fooling around with this,
> 
> Will I use the bore method again prolly some day but im sure it will be on rare occasion.



Brian, we may be a dieing breed and see the perfunctory bore cut come into vogue. The over use of the bore cut seems to have the added advantage of making the cutter feel and appear to have more experience than what he does to the casual observer and to himself.
There is a time and place for the plunge cut, but it sure isn't on every tree.
John


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> In the house?



Yep. In and out of the house all day.


----------



## forestryworks

Yukonsawman said:


> These plunge guys take the job quite seriously.
> John



That guy never once looked up.


----------



## 056 kid

Bore cuts scare me. When you go to cut that last bit of wood in the back and you dont have your wedges pounded in (LMAO) you can get in a bad spot really fast with a pinched bar and a tree coming right fir you and the saw. As opposed to a regular back cut where you can observe the back cut closing and pull your saw out real quick or tap a wedge in. It is crazy to me unless it is a heavy head leaner and even then cutting the heart fro the face is way quicker and easier. 

Who cares, as long as they dont MAKE me dod it im fine. Haha I remember last time the crew went to the GOL class. I took the day off. . .


----------



## GASoline71

forestryworks said:


> That guy never once looked up.



I LOL'd all the way through that one...

That tree could have been on the ground in25 seconds instaed of all the monkeying around.

Gary


----------



## Gypo Logger

GASoline71 said:


> I LOL'd all the way through that one...
> 
> That tree could have been on the ground in25 seconds instaed of all the monkeying around.
> 
> Gary


 Lol, ya it just reeked of, "I did a plunge cut, therefore I am." 
it's probably not fair to critique the newbie plungers, but what the hell do they say about us when we're not around? Lol
John


----------



## RandyMac

Yukonsawman said:


> Lol, ya it just reeked of, "I did a plunge cut, therefore I am."
> it's probably not fair to critique the newbie plungers, *but what the hell do they say about us when we're not around? Lol*
> John



they know better than to say to our faces, if they did, they would remember the event, every time they looked in the mirror.


----------



## slowp

2dogs said:


> Almost got the sattelite dish. I do like his boots though. I'm wearing my Vikings right now.



I would give points to him for his outfit except he ruined it with the wrong color of hardhat.


----------



## RandyMac

Last night I had a Gas and John story, over half an hour invested, I laughed through the whole thing, hit submit during a squall and it disappeared to where ever things go. Can't do it again.


----------



## Gypo Logger

RandyMac said:


> Last night I had a Gas and John story, over half an hour invested, I laughed through the whole thing, hit submit during a squall and it disappeared to where ever things go. Can't do it again.



Randy, I'm sure you have perfect recall. Just wait for another lucid moment and it will all come back to you. Lol
John


----------



## FSburt

what the hell do they say about us when we're not around? Lol


I do wonder about this since we have developed techniques to deal the the size and complexity of the timber on the west coast and these techniques seem to be shown and are being pushed in the east coast even for Govt fallers. I agree Gary that he could have whipped that "big" tree down with a simple undercut and backcut and eliminated alot of exposure time to himself. I do say I always get a kick out of these videos that show these fallers cutting and wondering how much on the stump time these guys have because from these videos they look like they would be pretty broke off after dealing with some of the timber and ground its it growin on the left coast.


----------



## RandyMac

Yukonsawman said:


> Randy, I'm sure you have perfect recall. Just wait for another lucid moment and it will all come back to you. Lol
> John



being lucid has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Gypo Logger

RandyMac said:


> being lucid has nothing to do with it.



You mean you weren't beveraging at the time? Lol That's when I get lucid. And don't be trying to tell me I'm lucid ALL the time! lol
John


----------



## Gologit

FSburt said:


> ... I do say I always get a kick out of these videos that show these fallers cutting and wondering how much on the stump time these guys have because from these videos they look like they would be pretty broke off after dealing with some of the timber and ground its it growin on the left coast.



Yup. Maybe those guys are working by the hour.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Gologit said:


> Yup. Maybe those guys are working by the hour.



Ya, their probably getting paid more than we are. There seems to be alot of credence in making a job look harder than what it actually is. Lol
John


----------



## stihl 440

Gologit said:


> You must have a real great boss. If I had a cutter who purposely let some rookie fall a tree into powerlines and it cost me "five or ten thousand dollars" I don't think I'd be that understanding. I think I'd have wonder why anybody in their right mind would allow somebody who really didn't know any better to do something so damn dangerous.
> Logging in your part of the country must pay a heck of lot better than it does out here if your boss can afford to spend money like that. If one of my guys did something like that I'd have to figure out whether I could afford to keep him or not. And I think I know what the answer would be.



This particular job was a union job and was a by the hour ROW "right of way" job and we where just selling the marketable logs and where chipping the rest.....oh and the boss did let for an added coushion for an accident if it occoured in the bill...as WE where getting PAID to remove the trees and do the brush removal and clearing.....now im sure it would've been different if we where just cutting it for JUST the log money and thats it....i bet i would've got a big time a$$ chewin as well....but on THIS job it wasnt the case....and this kid was also hired on to be a cutter the same as i was....so where really was i wrong to let him cut it?.....remember HE told ME that he could do it better....im not the boss and if i would boss him around i sure that neither him or the boss would've appreciated it....so then i would've been the bad guy....one of those d**ned if you do D**ned if you dont moments....now granted i was working there longer than he was...but that still doesnt mean im the boss....


----------



## stihl 440

2dogs said:


> Really? You let a kid fall a tree into power lines just to prove a point. I would have fired you right then and there. Both of us would have been sued by the Public Utility Commission to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars too. You would also be in jail within an hour. Or maybe you are just a BSer.
> 
> Go back to the chainsaw forum.



hmmm...yes i did...and yes i did.....BSer...i think not....lol. "several hundred thousand dollars"????:spam:....hahahahah lmfao!.... B...S... ill stay right here..

BTW...pm's are a nice way to communicate without cluttering up a post..


----------



## Gologit

stihl 440 said:


> This particular job was a union job and was a by the hour ROW "right of way" job and we where just selling the marketable logs and where chipping the rest.....oh and the boss did let for an added coushion for an accident if it occoured in the bill...as WE where getting PAID to remove the trees and do the brush removal and clearing.....now im sure it would've been different if we where just cutting it for JUST the log money and thats it....i bet i would've got a big time a$$ chewin as well....but on THIS job it wasnt the case....and this kid was also hired on to be a cutter the same as i was....so where really was i wrong to let him cut it?.....remember HE told ME that he could do it better....im not the boss and if i would boss him around i sure that neither him or the boss would've appreciated it....so then i would've been the bad guy....one of those d**ned if you do D**ned if you dont moments....now granted i was working there longer than he was...but that still doesnt mean im the boss....



Maybe so. But you, because you couldn't figure out any other way to teach him, put him in a position where he could have been killed. You had no right to do that, no matter how much of an idiot the guy was. Maybe, just maybe,_because_ he was an idiot, you might have picked some other method to show him the right way to do things.

I've knocked down a few wires and walked away from it. I used to know two guys who didn't get away with it. In both cases they just barely brushed the wires with the top quarter of the tree. That was enough. It wasn't anything I care to see again.

Mouthy guys and know it alls are a PITA and I can understand you wanting to teach him a lesson. Smart mouthed rookies are always blowing their own horn and sometimes they need a little schooling. But letting him drop a tree across hot lines, when you damn well knew they were hot, wasn't the way to go about it.
I would have fired you for doing it and would have been glad to see you go. Nothing personal.


----------



## Gypo Logger

There are alot of guys out there that can talk a good story and make one believe they have more experience than what they do. Even when proven wrong they will still chirp away, because in their own mind they have done it all. 
so I don't think we can say that 440 was wrong or negligent for letting buddy dump that tree.
The accomplished know it all is very adept at convincing others that they have seen everything.
Often the job goes to the one who knows the least.
John


----------



## stihl 440

Gologit said:


> Maybe so. But you, because you couldn't figure out any other way to teach him, put him in a position where he could have been killed. You had no right to do that, no matter how much of an idiot the guy was. Maybe, just maybe,_because_ he was an idiot, you might have picked some other method to show him the right way to do things.
> 
> I've knocked down a few wires and walked away from it. I used to know two guys who didn't get away with it. In both cases they just barely brushed the wires with the top quarter of the tree. That was enough. It wasn't anything I care to see again.
> 
> Mouthy guys and know it alls are a PITA and I can understand you wanting to teach him a lesson. Smart mouthed rookies are always blowing their own horn and sometimes they need a little schooling. But letting him drop a tree across hot lines, when you damn well knew they were hot, wasn't the way to go about it.
> I would have fired you for doing it and would have been glad to see you go. Nothing personal.



I tried to teach this kid something but again he was just one of those guys...he knew it all....i tried..the boss even tried and was getting pi$$ed at him....they were just cable wires no hot electric...i wasnt gonna kill the [email protected] kid....he11 im not that mean...lol..i knew they weren't electric... But if my expirences offend some of you guys then im sorry...didnt mean to offend anybody... Listen i NEVER said MY way was BEST....& i dont know it all....if you think you know it all..well..then i cant help you either..... Do I borecut every tree?.....no....EVERY cut has a place...EVERY tree is different...EVERY one has their own opinion....mine is mine and yours is yours....i've worked with some veterans that where [email protected] good fallers....if you didnt respect them and didnt listen to them they wouldnt show you nothin.....well...i just kept my mouth shut and ears open.... As for you gologit....nothing personal taken....


----------



## DangerTree

2dogs said:


> Well the tree is still hung up. I guess he ran out of recording time. Good thing cause I lost interest anyway. Though I wonder why he wedged at all. Like you said, a homeowner in his backyard.


A simple salami cut would do.


----------



## DangerTree

Yukonsawman said:


> These plunge guys take the job quite seriously.
> John
> 
> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P088bMP7jq0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P088bMP7jq0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


That had to be the dumbest thing I have ever witnessed especially the BALLPEEN HAMMER!!! That would have been limbed and bucked had he felled it like a man.


----------



## madhatte

forestryworks said:


> That guy never once looked up.



Was gonna note the same. Good way to get dead right there.


----------



## SWE#Kipp

Some power companies here in Sweden demands that that all trees is felled this way cause they think its the safest way to fell trees around power lines and railways !!


----------



## 2dogs

SWE#Kipp said:


> Some power companies here in Sweden demands that that all trees is felled this way cause they think its the safest way to fell trees around power lines and railways !!



And here is why.
http://www.picshag.com/show.php?f=pics/052010/sweden-then-and-now-big.jpg


----------



## GASoline71

HAHAHAHAHA! 

Gary


----------



## SWE#Kipp

2dogs said:


> And here is why.
> http://www.picshag.com/show.php?f=pics/052010/sweden-then-and-now-big.jpg



Yep that must be it


----------



## Gypo Logger

Next time I'm in the bush, I'll play around with the plunge cut just for chits and giggles, however, I honestly think that by the time one has plunged, the tree could have been on the ground using traditional felling cuts.

Whether plunging gives more control over the run of the mill tree, I doubt. Leaners yes.

Most plunging we've seen so far has been in open areas. I wonder how the upstart plunger would make out in a select cut situation?
John


----------



## GASoline71

Even when I have used the plunge/bore on heavy head leaners... I'm at the stump longer than I really wanna be.

I usually use a Coos Bay instead...

Gary


----------



## Gypo Logger

When I was cutting bigger and more valuable hardwood timber, I didn't mind taking my time to ensure I didn't down grade the butt log with shatter or fibre pull.
On a heavy leaner like Oak, which seem to lean the most, I'd make a nice low undercut, plunge behind the hinge, saw lil ears on each side and blast thru the remaining backcut.
The tree always falls extremely fast.
Gary, what is the Coos Bay? Sounds interesting.
John


----------



## coastalfaller

GASoline71 said:


> Even when I have used the plunge/bore on heavy head leaners... I'm at the stump longer than I really wanna be.
> 
> I usually use a Coos Bay instead...
> 
> Gary



I'll bite, Gary, what's a Coos Bay?!


----------



## Gypo Logger

coastalfaller said:


> I'll bite, Gary, what's a Coos Bay?!


 Google Coos Bay Felling Cut, I did and I still don't get it.
John


----------



## ray benson

Hi John, Sometimes arboristsite search trumps google.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=2121485&postcount=47


----------



## hammerlogging

*boring*

I know I've posted some of these before.
here's a boring stump, easy way to make sure all is nice and clean:






A boring red oak. Some trees youn can't pull, its not worth trying, and you have to bore.





A humboldt, backcut, saw next to stump, me tucked back for protection.... sidehill, lovin it.





Have as least boring Thanksgiving as possible.


----------



## Nailsbeats

A Coos Bay cut is for a very heavy head leaner. The kind you need to put on the ground safely without much concern for fiber pull. 

With no face cut, cut the "ears" out of the backcut about 1/3 of the diameter (or as much as you can without prematurely releasing the tree or pinching your bar) on each side of the tree. Then with high chainspeed burry that backcut (in line with your two ear cuts) straight through until it goes. It will usually rip and tear a bit, which it why I like to put a bit of an undercut into the combination if I can. Seems to come off cleaner.

This can be used in the tree also on heavy limbs, note though that there isn't much control since a definite hinge hasn't been created.


----------



## Nailsbeats

Nailsbeats said:


> A Coos Bay cut is for a very heavy head leaner. The kind you need to put on the ground safely without much concern for fiber pull.
> 
> With no face cut, cut the "ears" out of the backcut about 1/3 of the diameter (or as much as you can without prematurely releasing the tree or pinching your bar) on each side of the tree. Then with high chainspeed burry that backcut (in line with your two ear cuts) straight through until it goes. It will usually rip and tear a bit, which it why I like to put a bit of an undercut into the combination if I can. Seems to come off cleaner.
> 
> This can be used in the tree also on heavy limbs, note though that there isn't much control since a definite hinge hasn't been created.



It is really a cool cut to play around with and have in your bag of tricks. Sorry, didn't realize I quoted myself.


----------



## RandyMac

I'm bored, somebody put up some falling pics.


----------



## GASoline71

coastalfaller said:


> I'll bite, Gary, what's a Coos Bay?!



I use the "Triangle" on the right. and it can be used with a Humboldt face. I've done it.






Dent also explains it in his book if you can decipher it.

Gary


----------



## 2dogs

Nailsbeats said:


> A Coos Bay cut is for a very heavy head leaner. The kind you need to put on the ground safely without much concern for fiber pull.
> 
> With no face cut, cut the "ears" out of the backcut about 1/3 of the diameter (or as much as you can without prematurely releasing the tree or pinching your bar) on each side of the tree. Then with high chainspeed burry that backcut (in line with your two ear cuts) straight through until it goes. It will usually rip and tear a bit, which it why I like to put a bit of an undercut into the combination if I can. Seems to come off cleaner.
> 
> This can be used in the tree also on heavy limbs, note though that there isn't much control since a definite hinge hasn't been created.



This is how I learned a Coos Bay cut, no face.


----------



## coastalfaller

GASoline71 said:


> I use the "Triangle" on the right. and it can be used with a Humboldt face. I've done it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dent also explains it in his book if you can decipher it.
> 
> Gary



Gotcha! Here, with no undercut, it's called a "westcoaster"!


----------



## Slamm

Bore Cut Heavy Leaner (White Oak)
Went heavy on the hinge so it wouldn't sit on my bar. Then just came in the back on the backstrap and "popped it" and over she went. I should have nipped the sides of the hinge a little, as you can see I tore some of the stump out, which is better than the butt of the log.









Here are some very nice white oaks, I bore cut low and laid them right where I wanted them to go. No wedges were used.




More:


----------



## Slamm

This Red Oak was a very hard leaner and pretty big:









Humbolt with a bore cut to finish it, I high cut it because it had wire in it:




The humbolt shot the butt down the hill so as to not snap the log.





Low cut this one and the uphill side of the stump is actually below the ground level, Oh and I side hilled it too boot, LOL:









Later,

Sam


----------



## hammerlogging

Nice Slamm. Thats like the timber and ground where my very first falling work was, But can you call it sidehill when its flat???? Just fitfully admiring your good ground! I find it tough to get a clean hinge if I have to bore a humboldt, so damn hard to see th hinge you've made... so if i have to bore it I'll conventional or open face it, but you sure seemed to pull it off. Great.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Nice pictures Slam. I like those low stumps. 

Anyone who has taken the plunge must have experienced KB, even when the bar was straight into the tree. The saw comes straight back and if your standing directly behind the saw the rear handle hits the right thigh and a huge bruise results.
This kind of KB I think is caused by a chain that may be too loose and too low chain speed and maybe not holding the saw tight enough.

I talked to a retired WCF yesterday and we discussed the habitual use of plunge.
He just laughed and never heard of it except leaners. Can you imagine plunging every tree with an 090, which is the saw he used on the coast.
Harry still has the 090 BTW.

John


----------



## Greystoke

*Boring...*

I prefer the "half humboldt" LOL! 







Seriously though opposite ends of the country we do things different...so be it. The coos bay and borin with a backstrap... I have used both quite a bit. When I bore and strap I generally cut 1/3 or better face, just depends on how heavy the tree is leanin, and it is generally a humboldt, cuz most the trees I have fell you want the butt to hit the ground first, otherwise, I have used a saginaw, or conventional undercut. One thing that I used to do quite a bit when I did not want to pull wood from the butt, (unless I wanted to rely on hopped up chainsaw power and a laser sharp chain to stay with it and cut the holding wood off as she went over) especially with high dollar wood that was real stringy (spruce, yellow cedar, red fir...) I would bore in from the undercut side and bore as much heartwood as I could get away with depending on how much side lean the tree had and how far around I needed to pull it as most of my career was on steep sidehills. Most times I would bore out heartwood unless I had other things that I was trying to do...like jacking or wedging against a heavy back lean...I would not cut up the holding wood, or bore out the heart until the tree was stood up as I was maximizing my holding wood. You end up with a nice butt log that if any wood was pulled it is generally in the sapwood that gets milled off anyway. Once again...only in certain situations, as sometimes there is nothing you can do but leave a big old sword of a stump shot...at least in my experience. 

Here is an example of when and how I would bore the heart out. These trees leaned hard down a nasty bluff (head lean) and although it was a given that I would bore the heart out of these, most times I did it anyway, just because I wanted nice clean butt logs. 

Sitka Spruce with heart bored out, humboldt face with a snipe.






Boring heartwood on a Hemlock, once again humboldt with a snipe:






High dollar Yellow Cedar log that was bored. Notice the wood pull out of the sapwood on the right side...tree had a downhill lean and I needed to pull it sidehill, so I had to leave that wood and not cut it off as it was going over, otherwise it would not be there.






Hopefully this post was not too boring for anyone


----------



## coastalfaller

tarzanstree said:


> I prefer the "half humboldt" LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though opposite ends of the country we do things different...so be it. The coos bay and borin with a backstrap... I have used both quite a bit. When I bore and strap I generally cut 1/3 or better face, just depends on how heavy the tree is leanin, and it is generally a humboldt, cuz most the trees I have fell you want the butt to hit the ground first, otherwise, I have used a saginaw, or conventional undercut. One thing that I used to do quite a bit when I did not want to pull wood from the butt, (unless I wanted to rely on hopped up chainsaw power and a laser sharp chain to stay with it and cut the holding wood off as she went over) especially with high dollar wood that was real stringy (spruce, yellow cedar, red fir...) I would bore in from the undercut side and bore as much heartwood as I could get away with depending on how much side lean the tree had and how far around I needed to pull it as most of my career was on steep sidehills. Most times I would bore out heartwood unless I had other things that I was trying to do...like jacking or wedging against a heavy back lean...I would not cut up the holding wood, or bore out the heart until the tree was stood up as I was maximizing my holding wood. You end up with a nice butt log that if any wood was pulled it is generally in the sapwood that gets milled off anyway. Once again...only in certain situations, as sometimes there is nothing you can do but leave a big old sword of a stump shot...at least in my experience.
> 
> Here is an example of when and how I would bore the heart out. These trees leaned hard down a nasty bluff (head lean) and although it was a given that I would bore the heart out of these, most times I did it anyway, just because I wanted nice clean butt logs.
> 
> Sitka Spruce with heart bored out, humboldt face with a snipe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boring heartwood on a Hemlock, once again humboldt with a snipe:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High dollar Yellow Cedar log that was bored. Notice the wood pull out of the sapwood on the right side...tree had a downhill lean and I needed to pull it sidehill, so I had to leave that wood and not cut it off as it was going over, otherwise it would not be there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this post was not too boring for anyone



I like the half humboldt too! lol! Funny how terminology and technique vary from region to region. We use all the techniques you described, just different names. For instance, the humboldt with a snipe, we call it a swanson here. Don't ask me why, not sure of the history!


----------



## coastalfaller

tarzanstree said:


> I prefer the "half humboldt" LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though opposite ends of the country we do things different...so be it. The coos bay and borin with a backstrap... I have used both quite a bit. When I bore and strap I generally cut 1/3 or better face, just depends on how heavy the tree is leanin, and it is generally a humboldt, cuz most the trees I have fell you want the butt to hit the ground first, otherwise, I have used a saginaw, or conventional undercut. One thing that I used to do quite a bit when I did not want to pull wood from the butt, (unless I wanted to rely on hopped up chainsaw power and a laser sharp chain to stay with it and cut the holding wood off as she went over) especially with high dollar wood that was real stringy (spruce, yellow cedar, red fir...) I would bore in from the undercut side and bore as much heartwood as I could get away with depending on how much side lean the tree had and how far around I needed to pull it as most of my career was on steep sidehills. Most times I would bore out heartwood unless I had other things that I was trying to do...like jacking or wedging against a heavy back lean...I would not cut up the holding wood, or bore out the heart until the tree was stood up as I was maximizing my holding wood. You end up with a nice butt log that if any wood was pulled it is generally in the sapwood that gets milled off anyway. Once again...only in certain situations, as sometimes there is nothing you can do but leave a big old sword of a stump shot...at least in my experience.
> 
> Here is an example of when and how I would bore the heart out. These trees leaned hard down a nasty bluff (head lean) and although it was a given that I would bore the heart out of these, most times I did it anyway, just because I wanted nice clean butt logs.
> 
> Sitka Spruce with heart bored out, humboldt face with a snipe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boring heartwood on a Hemlock, once again humboldt with a snipe:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High dollar Yellow Cedar log that was bored. Notice the wood pull out of the sapwood on the right side...tree had a downhill lean and I needed to pull it sidehill, so I had to leave that wood and not cut it off as it was going over, otherwise it would not be there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this post was not too boring for anyone



Your ground and timber type look vaguely familiar too! lol!


----------



## Greystoke

coastalfaller said:


> I like the half humboldt too! lol! Funny how terminology and technique vary from region to region. We use all the techniques you described, just different names. For instance, the humboldt with a snipe, we call it a swanson here. Don't ask me why, not sure of the history!



Yeah, as much trampin around as I did...there was always different terminology. Never heard the swanson one...less syllables...i'm in! It was funny when I would show up in a region to cut timber and start talkin to a local faller with my tramp lingo. When I first started here in Montany they call timber fallers here "sawyers", and when I turned 18 and headed for the coast and called them sawyers there, they tended to frown at me a lot! Since most of my career was spent on the Coast, I tend to frown now too at being called a "sawyer"  Take care pard!


----------



## Greystoke

coastalfaller said:


> Your ground and timber type look vaguely familiar too! lol!



North Prince of Wales Island Alaska...probably not too far from ya!


----------



## RandyMac

The term sawyer seems old school, it was used on the coast as a more proper name, we called ourselves fallers or choppers, depending on what you were cutting. The term "tree cutter" is better left for farmers.


----------



## coastalfaller

tarzanstree said:


> Yeah, as much trampin around as I did...there was always different terminology. Never heard the swanson one...less syllables...i'm in! It was funny when I would show up in a region to cut timber and start talkin to a local faller with my tramp lingo. When I first started here in Montany they call timber fallers here "sawyers", and when I turned 18 and headed for the coast and called them sawyers there, they tended to frown at me a lot! Since most of my career was spent on the Coast, I tend to frown now too at being called a "sawyer"  Take care pard!



I hear ya! Take care too and stay warm!


----------



## coastalfaller

tarzanstree said:


> North Prince of Wales Island Alaska...probably not too far from ya!



Not far at all!


----------



## coastalfaller

RandyMac said:


> The term sawyer seems old school, it was used on the coast as a more proper name, we called ourselves fallers or choppers, depending on what you were cutting. The term "tree cutter" is better left for farmers.


----------



## Greystoke

RandyMac said:


> The term sawyer seems old school, it was used on the coast as a more proper name, we called ourselves fallers or choppers, depending on what you were cutting. The term "tree cutter" is better left for farmers.



Yeah, I remember when I showed up in Humboldt county in 99...I was there for about four years and I never could get used to people calling me a chopper...I had never heard that one before or since I left there...most regions I worked we were Timber Fallers.


----------



## madhatte

Been hearing the generic term "cutter" around here lately from the small family outfits contracting on our ownership. Don't know if that's widespread or not.


----------



## Gypo Logger

tarzanstree said:


> I prefer the "half humboldt" LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though opposite ends of the country we do things different...so be it. The coos bay and borin with a backstrap... I have used both quite a bit. When I bore and strap I generally cut 1/3 or better face, just depends on how heavy the tree is leanin, and it is generally a humboldt, cuz most the trees I have fell you want the butt to hit the ground first, otherwise, I have used a saginaw, or conventional undercut. One thing that I used to do quite a bit when I did not want to pull wood from the butt, (unless I wanted to rely on hopped up chainsaw power and a laser sharp chain to stay with it and cut the holding wood off as she went over) especially with high dollar wood that was real stringy (spruce, yellow cedar, red fir...) I would bore in from the undercut side and bore as much heartwood as I could get away with depending on how much side lean the tree had and how far around I needed to pull it as most of my career was on steep sidehills. Most times I would bore out heartwood unless I had other things that I was trying to do...like jacking or wedging against a heavy back lean...I would not cut up the holding wood, or bore out the heart until the tree was stood up as I was maximizing my holding wood. You end up with a nice butt log that if any wood was pulled it is generally in the sapwood that gets milled off anyway. Once again...only in certain situations, as sometimes there is nothing you can do but leave a big old sword of a stump shot...at least in my experience.
> 
> Here is an example of when and how I would bore the heart out. These trees leaned hard down a nasty bluff (head lean) and although it was a given that I would bore the heart out of these, most times I did it anyway, just because I wanted nice clean butt logs.
> 
> Sitka Spruce with heart bored out, humboldt face with a snipe.
> 
> 
> 
> Boring heartwood on a Hemlock, once again humboldt with a snipe:
> 
> 
> 
> High dollar Yellow Cedar log that was bored. Notice the wood pull out of the sapwood on the right side...tree had a downhill lean and I needed to pull it sidehill, so I had to leave that wood and not cut it off as it was going over, otherwise it would not be there.
> 
> 
> Hopefully this post was not too boring for anyone



Cool pics, big wood, steep ground.
I like the way you took the undercut out in two pieces. Was the stem to the right an Alder or BL Maple?
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

Topper, chopper, woodrat, tree ape, woodtick, sawyer, whatever jacks your lumber. Lol


----------



## RandyMac

Chopper is a Redwood thing, going back to when the first Scotsman put steel to a tree so big, it seemed like an endless nightmare.
When I think of a sawyer, I see a headrig. Ray called me, among other things, his second sawyer. In the forestry we dropped the *yer* from sawyer, sometimes as many as eight crewmen had a chainsaw designation. We all had our tools assigned to us, whatever it was, it was your's until you left.


----------



## hammerlogging

madhatte said:


> Been hearing the generic term "cutter" around here lately from the small family outfits contracting on our ownership. Don't know if that's widespread or not.



There are lots of "cutters" in Appalachia. And timbercutters. 

Then again, small family outfits dominate the region.


----------



## bitzer

RandyMac said:


> Chopper is a Redwood thing, going back to when the first Scotsman put steel to a tree so big, it seemed like an endless nightmare.
> When I think of a sawyer, I see a headrig. Ray called me, among other things, his second sawyer. In the forestry we dropped the *yer* from sawyer, sometimes as many as eight crewmen had a chainsaw designation. We all had our tools assigned to us, whatever it was, it was your's until you left.



According to mid to late 1800s lingo out of the pinery (MN, WI, MI):

Choppers were the timber fallers.

Sawyers ("buckers") were buckin up the logs.

Swampers were guys who limbed and cleared brush for the teamsters

Teamsters skidded the logs out. 

This started before raker teeth on saws and only axes were used for felling. 

Heres a list of monthly pay rates as such: 

1889-90

Choppers- $26-$28
Sawyers - $22-$24
Second Sawyer- $20-$22
Swamper- $15-$20
Four horse teamster- $32-$35
Two horse teamster- $24-$28
Oxen Teamster- $26-$28
Blacksmiths and cooks made the most in camp $40-$45

Taken from "Theres Daylight in the Swamps." Some damn good old pics in here wish I had a scanner. 

Now that I've de-railed the #### out of this thread I might as well keep going. 

There is really only one type of bore cut that I like, but man can it get you into trouble.


----------



## stihl 440

hammerlogging said:


> There are lots of "cutters" in Appalachia. And timbercutters.
> 
> Then again, small family outfits dominate the region.



Yup ill second that.....ya hear cutter alot here.....


----------



## sawinredneck

Yukonsawman said:


> Nice pictures Slam. I like those low stumps.
> 
> Anyone who has taken the plunge must have experienced KB, even when the bar was straight into the tree. The saw comes straight back and if your standing directly behind the saw the rear handle hits the right thigh and a huge bruise results.
> This kind of KB I think is caused by a chain that may be too loose and too low chain speed and maybe not holding the saw tight enough.
> 
> I talked to a retired WCF yesterday and we discussed the habitual use of plunge.
> He just laughed and never heard of it except leaners. Can you imagine plunging every tree with an 090, which is the saw he used on the coast.
> Harry still has the 090 BTW.
> 
> John



I only bore cut when I have to, John, even to the point where I had an Oak barberchair on me once! Standing dead, 36" DBH with a 32" bar, winds were semi calm, but in my favor for falling. As I made the back cut the wind changed and picked up. Barberchaired 15' up the stem! Bad deal, but I walked away.
I've experienced what I call "push back" in bore cuts, but not kick back. It hurts the hell out of the gut, but it's not like kick back for sure! I akin it to following my gunning sights and trying to over correct while setting up the hinge. At the "moment" with a good leaner, it's easy to forget you have time to go back and fix the hinge, then make the back cut. But not doing it anymore than I have to, it's an art I am working on.
This cut is a fine line, it's not for everyone, it's not for every tree, as GOL would have you believe, but it sure has it's place in the tool box.


----------



## 056 kid

Bore cuts bore cuts bore cuts.

HOW did the misery whippers EVER get ANY timber on the ground??????

H O W? ? ? ? ?


----------



## sawinredneck

BIG wedges and HUGE sledge hammers.


----------



## RandyMac

056 kid said:


> Bore cuts bore cuts bore cuts.
> 
> HOW did the misery whippers EVER get ANY timber on the ground??????
> 
> H O W? ? ? ? ?



those old saws cut faster than you would think, a good team would make visible progress.


----------



## sawinredneck

It was also before Americans became fat and lazy.


----------



## 056 kid

RandyMac said:


> those old saws cut faster than you would think, a good team would make visible progress.



Your right old timer. Can you believe that I know how to joint & set a tuttle? I still have alot to learn, but I am learning.



sawinredneck said:


> It was also before Americans became fat and lazy.



Damn right!!


----------



## RandyMac

Here is a little thing my Bro wrote about playing with crosscut saws.


Randy and I took a crosscut saw,probably a 6 footer,
picked out a big madrone,these can be
scary with a good saw,weird grain and twisted,
The first cut went good,we instinctively co-ordinate,
trying to finish the undercut ,not so good,
crosscuts don't do that well,
we should have chopped it in.
the back cut was going smoothly.....
That big 42" madrone split "Barber-chaired"
flew down the steep ground,crashed,blocking the road.
A minute later the state park Ranger showed up,
we were not to cut any tree over 12 inches,
Our reasoning,told to this fellow,
was that on that ridge the trees,
went tanoak,madrone,tanoak,madrone,madrone,tanoak.
We sought symmetry.
We didn't get into much trouble,
the tree got cut and split,stacked along the road,
the park sells it in bundles,to campers.
I started healing the saws,work got done,
we still have all ten fingers,
a little DEAF THOUGH.
And all that was just a couple hours
of work,plus we cut the stump off,
leaving evidence,a 6 foot spike on the stump
was embarrassing.

Humboldt


----------



## FSburt

Hey Tarzantree when you are working on that cliffy ground when you can only cut from one side and your punching over a big tree like a 7-10 footer that those spruces can get too how are you dealing with the offside putting in the undercut and backcut. Reason I am asking is have you seen any fallers cutting the offside backcut by boring through the undercut and cutting around till you can safely cut from the nearside. I know spring boards would more than likely been used but this method was shown by Dent at a few of our sessions. It works well just very sketchy the first time while your saw is inside the undercut and your in front of the tree cutting the offside.


----------



## coastalfaller

FSburt said:


> Hey Tarzantree when you are working on that cliffy ground when you can only cut from one side and your punching over a big tree like a 7-10 footer that those spruces can get too how are you dealing with the offside putting in the undercut and backcut. Reason I am asking is have you seen any fallers cutting the offside backcut by boring through the undercut and cutting around till you can safely cut from the nearside. I know spring boards would more than likely been used but this method was shown by Dent at a few of our sessions. It works well just very sketchy the first time while your saw is inside the undercut and your in front of the tree cutting the offside.



I can't speak for Cody, but typically myself and my guys use springboards or sometimes some makeshift scaffolding. We will cut the guts out of them from the undercut, especially on the big spruce. If you don't have every piece of fiber that needs to be cut on a Sitka Spruce, you'll be pounding wedges until the sun goes down! They will simply be sky bound!


----------



## 056 kid

I have noticed through youtube vids and pics that guys leave NOT MUCH wood to hold spruce. Ide LOVE to cut some big Sitkas at some point..


----------



## joesawer

stihl 440 said:


> This particular job was a union job and was a by the hour ROW "right of way" job and we where just selling the marketable logs and where chipping the rest.....oh and the boss did let for an added coushion for an accident if it occoured in the bill...as WE where getting PAID to remove the trees and do the brush removal and clearing.....now im sure it would've been different if we where just cutting it for JUST the log money and thats it....i bet i would've got a big time a$$ chewin as well....but on THIS job it wasnt the case....and this kid was also hired on to be a cutter the same as i was....so where really was i wrong to let him cut it?.....remember HE told ME that he could do it better....im not the boss and if i would boss him around i sure that neither him or the boss would've appreciated it....so then i would've been the bad guy....one of those d**ned if you do D**ned if you dont moments....now granted i was working there longer than he was...but that still doesnt mean im the boss....






Was this before or after you where using spring boards to cut 10' dbh trees in PA?


----------



## 056 kid

Joe, you know that we had 15dbh white oaks and 20dbh chesnuts in VA back in the old days. I have some photos of MONSTROUS white oaks taken in VA.

Need to find them. .


----------



## 056 kid

Here we go, this one is in West VA. i know It looks like redwood, but its White oak.



http://www.patc.us/images/hist_3log.jpg

Here is the website. .

http://www.patc.us/history/archive/virg_fst.html


----------



## joesawer

056 kid said:


> Here we go, this one is in West VA. i know It looks like redwood, but its White oak.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.patc.us/images/hist_3log.jpg
> 
> Here is the website. .
> 
> http://www.patc.us/history/archive/virg_fst.html





Lol my grandpa has told me about a poplar they cut that one log loaded a flat car.
BUT when was the last time they cut 10dbh trees from spring boards in PA?
I am establishing a pattern of imaginary incidents, by some one who pounds wedges into bore cuts LOL.


----------



## joesawer

The largest tree logged in the State of West Virginia, near Lead Mine, Tucker County, 1913. This white oak, as large as any California Sequoia, was probably well over 1,000 years old. It measured 13 feet in diameter 16 feet from the base, and 10 feet in diameter 31 feet from the base. © McClain Printing Company

They have no concept of just how big the Sequoia's are. And I don't know that the rest of those photos captions are accurate.


----------



## 056 kid

I dunno? LOL.


I have pure Scott timber faller blood in my veins, I rarely bore cut. . .


----------



## joesawer

056 kid said:


> Joe, you know that we had 15dbh white oaks and 20dbh chesnuts in VA back in the old days. I have some photos of MONSTROUS white oaks taken in VA.
> 
> Need to find them. .




I have never heard of anything close to 20' dbh chestuts. Do you have any documentation of this?


----------



## 056 kid

The trees didn't get nearly as tall, but I am proud of them. . .

As for accuracy, I dont know, do I believe it? yes. After all this time, from the year 1492, I have cut some big trees, and found some REALLY big trees, there HAD do be some big big bammas around!!


----------



## 056 kid

I had a lot of stuff om my old hard drive. I will try and hunt all that stuff down..again...

Off top, maybe not 20' but they are big Joesawer!

http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/Publications/region/8/history/images/fig4.jpg


----------



## 056 kid

http://newsroanoke.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/American-Chestnut-Old1.jpg


----------



## coastalfaller

056 kid said:


> I have noticed through youtube vids and pics that guys leave NOT MUCH wood to hold spruce. Ide LOVE to cut some big Sitkas at some point..



Yeah, they're my favorite! Beautiful big pipes that hold their taper right to the tassles! Unfortunately I missed most of the valley bottom spruce, have seen the stumps, makes me shed a tear! We had some nice spruce this summer on heli. Had a nice quarter picked out for myself, but was too busy to get on the saw! Damn it!


----------



## Gypo Logger

056 kid said:


> Bore cuts bore cuts bore cuts.
> 
> HOW did the misery whippers EVER get ANY timber on the ground??????
> 
> H O W? ? ? ? ?


 In the days of the misery whip there was alot of good timber left and the sawyers probably just chose the more straighter ones, but I bet they still had their fair share of chair.
John


----------



## stihl 440

joesawer said:


> Lol my grandpa has told me about a poplar they cut that one log loaded a flat car.
> BUT when was the last time they cut 10dbh trees from spring boards in PA?
> I am establishing a pattern of imaginary incidents, by some one who pounds wedges into bore cuts LOL.



I never said that i cut a 10ft tree...WTF are you talkin about?????...get your facts straight :censored:....i said that a company nearby us did....it was the owner and 2 of his workers that told me...the cutter and the skidder operator....THEY said THEY cut one on a big tract...i think he said it was a state forest cut over 150 acres...he said it was waaayy up on a ridge...and he told me that the tree was dead and buckskin when they cut it....but he DID TELL ME that it was like 9ft dia on the stump...i didnt believe him either...but i've heard the same thing from a couple different people now...he said it was white oak...


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## stihl 440

joesawer said:


> Was this before or after you where using spring boards to cut 10' dbh trees in PA?



I never said that anyone used springboards to cut 10ft trees.....man do you think a good story up...i bet you could sell that ocean front property in arizona that i have..sure you could...huh?? LMFAO wow


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## DangerTree

Many of the hard leaner's of the day's of old were conventional cut. The under cuts were not on the downhill side they were cut so the holding wood ran perpendicular to the lean and the strap was left thickest to the heavy side. The ground had to be prepared for the tree as it normally meant a side hill fall. Ropes and beasts of burden were were normally employed to ensure proper fell direction. Some of the bad leaners were blasted and then cut and split on the ground for transport.


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## RandyMac

*whip it, whip it good*

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## 056 kid

hosses. . . . I would not want a fist coming from any of those dudes. Probably would feel like getting whacked by a pneumatic piston.


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## RandyMac

A punch would be bad enough, but if one of them got ahold of you with their hands, they would pinch your head right off. Swinging an axe or hammer will give you a super grip, I learned this first hand (ha ha) when I worked in a Redwood splitting yard, we used 10 and 12 pounders, swung them like we were addressing a fastball.


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## 056 kid

haha, never even thought of that!


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## RandyMac

My Dad was a sawfiler at PL's "B" Mill where the OG Redwood was sawn, he did that for 30 years, not fast on his feet, but his upper body strength was off scale and he was a giant like drilldaddy. I learned to be polite or be quick, if he got a piece of you, it was over.


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## DangerTree

Many of those guys had white finger disease and carpel tunnel syndrome. And to top it off, arthritis, mostly from squeezing and pounding. The cold weather would wreak havoc on them. Some guys get that today I have been very lucky so far just some minor back problems. I can be strong as an ox today and put my back out tying my shoes tomorrow!


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## Greystoke

Yukonsawman said:


> Cool pics, big wood, steep ground.
> I like the way you took the undercut out in two pieces. Was the stem to the right an Alder or BL Maple?
> John



Hemlock


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## Greystoke

coastalfaller said:


> I can't speak for Cody, but typically myself and my guys use springboards or sometimes some makeshift scaffolding. We will cut the guts out of them from the undercut, especially on the big spruce. If you don't have every piece of fiber that needs to be cut on a Sitka Spruce, you'll be pounding wedges until the sun goes down! They will simply be sky bound!



Yep, you can speak for me pard  Dang spruce are stringy!


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## coastalfaller

tarzanstree said:


> Yep, you can speak for me pard  Dang spruce are stringy!


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## bitzer

Great info on eastern old growth kid! I knew there was some big wood out there back in the day, but I had no idea how big. 

I think I'm gunna go practice some bore cuts now to get ready for the real thing. Top of the tip right?


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## hammerlogging

bitzercreek1 said:


> Top of the tip right?



All the time. Just the way it is. depends on how you can get your saw into the tree based on where the face is and where the slope is behind you to manage to get your saw onto the tree.


Blah blah not recommended. Done all the time. I hate those trees you have to bore, need a low stump and don't have #### for space to work with to get your bore in.


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## bitzer

hammerlogging said:


> All the time. Just the way it is. depends on how you can get your saw into the tree based on where the face is and where the slope is behind you to manage to get your saw onto the tree.
> 
> 
> Blah blah not recommended. Done all the time. I hate those trees you have to bore, need a low stump and don't have #### for space to work with to get your bore in.



Theres so many rules I break with a saw on any given day. I was doing that type of stuff before I knew it was something I wasn't supposed to do. I'm sure you could teach me a new one or two as well with the type of ground/trees you get to play with.


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## hammerlogging

Rain day.

BitzerBob, don't worry, they're not rules anyhow, just suggestions. Like the yellow line. And stop signs on private property.


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## Gologit

hammerlogging said:


> Rain day.
> 
> BitzerBob, don't worry, they're not rules anyhow, just suggestions. Like the yellow line. And stop signs on private property.




That's good advice. There are some basics that are iron-clad rules but the rest of it is mostly common sense and paying attention to the tree. The tree is indifferent, it doesn't care if it kills you or not.

It's kind of like shooting pool or playing chess...you want to be thinking a couple of moves ahead all the time.

LOLOL...you can fall 100 trees that do exactly what you'd planned for them but that 101st might have you running for your life. Those are the ones that humble you and a little humility never hurt anyone.


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## Tzed250

Gologit said:


> That's good advice. There are some basics that are iron-clad rules but the rest of it is mostly common sense and paying attention to the tree. The tree is indifferent, it doesn't care if it kills you or not.
> 
> It's kind of like shooting pool or playing chess...you want to be thinking a couple of moves ahead all the time.
> 
> LOLOL...you can fall 100 trees that do exactly what you'd planned for them but that 101st might have you running for your life. Those are the ones that humble you and *a little humility never hurt anyone*.



Great post. Humility has saved my tail a few times...


.


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## GASoline71

Yup... sometimes Humble Pie can taste pretty good actually... 

Gary


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## Jacob J.

RandyMac said:


> A punch would be bad enough, but if one of them got ahold of you with their hands, they would pinch your head right off. Swinging an axe or hammer will give you a super grip, I learned this first hand (ha ha) when I worked in a Redwood splitting yard, we used 10 and 12 pounders, swung them like we were addressing a fastball.



My great grandpa's first job was in a blacksmith shop in Arcata cold-riveting boilers by hand with 7 & 9 pound hammers. He was 13. Later he went to work for J.D. Turner in Eureka in their fabrication shop and eventually ended up building several of the big steam donkeys. He could "palm" a large watermelon and just about twist your arm off with his grip.


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## GASoline71

Sounds like my Gramps Jacob... he used to punch those same donkeys in the woods back in the day. He and another cat used to have contests back at the shop. Like squeezing pairs of pliers until the ends of the handles touched. 

My Dad always told me about it when i was little... then one day me, my Dad, my Uncle and my Cousin were at gramps place helping him put up firewood for the season.

I asked him about doin' that. He went in and got a pair of pliers and squeezed them in his mammoth hands. The ends of the handles didn't touch, but they were bent up pretty good. That was 6 months before he died... he was 70 years old. 

Gary


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## RandyMac

The harder you push it, the stronger you get, until you start tearin' things loose. That muscle under the shoulder blade, that runs along the spine, was a favorite wind sucking event, right there with a chokerbell to the knee. In any event, if there wasn't bone showing, you kept at it.


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## GASoline71

I got hit in the sternum with a pissed off 076 once. Hard to breathe for months. Just kinda "got over it". Seein' it knocked me clean off the spar i was on didn't help matters...

Still got a small "pit" in my upper sternum... from the handle of that saw. 

Gary


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## Burvol

GASoline71 said:


> I got hit in the sternum with a pissed off 076 once. Hard to breathe for months. Just kinda "got over it". Seein' it knocked me clean off the spar i was on didn't help matters...
> 
> Still got a small "pit" in my upper sternum... from the handle of that saw.
> 
> Gary



That sounds rough!
I never got hit there, but in the thigh more than a few times. Nothing like the pistola grip kickback. I had one in September while bucking a big ol fir on a steep sidehill that put me on my knees for a few minutes, and was black for two weeks, then a bluish green/yellow for another. Dang that hurts.


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## GASoline71

It sure does mang... it sure does.

Gary


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## Jacob J.

Burvol said:


> That sounds rough!
> I never got hit there, but in the thigh more than a few times. Nothing like the pistola grip kickback. I had one in September while bucking a big ol fir on a steep sidehill that put me on my knees for a few minutes, and was black for two weeks, then a bluish green/yellow for another. Dang that hurts.



We used to call those "blueberry pie" bruises.


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## coastalfaller

Gologit said:


> That's good advice. There are some basics that are iron-clad rules but the rest of it is mostly common sense and paying attention to the tree. The tree is indifferent, it doesn't care if it kills you or not.
> 
> It's kind of like shooting pool or playing chess...you want to be thinking a couple of moves ahead all the time.
> 
> LOLOL...you can fall 100 trees that do exactly what you'd planned for them but that 101st might have you running for your life. Those are the ones that humble you and a little humility never hurt anyone.



Tried to rep ya, but wouldn't let me! Anyway, good post! Well said.


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## bitzer

hammerlogging said:


> Rain day.
> 
> BitzerBob, don't worry, they're not rules anyhow, just suggestions. Like the yellow line. And stop signs on private property.



Yeah I meant to put "rules" in qoutes. Are there really any rules? I've never been much for them and in the woods the trees don't care anyway. Like Gologit said, a few steps ahead of the tree. I've always been playing around with different things. Faces, cuts, ideas. Just thinking about weight and mechanics. Wind, lean, frozen wood, how wood moves different times of year, etc. I've played more after I found this site or just realized stuff I've played with had names. Some have sent me running and kicked my ass. Others have worked and made me feel like I know what I'm doing. I still think about it all the time. Driving down the road or walking through the woods with the wife and kids. The wife yelling at me to quit looking at the damn trees.


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## coastalfaller

bitzercreek1;26033 Driving down the road or walking through the woods with the wife and kids. The wife yelling at me to quit looking at the damn trees.[/QUOTE said:


> That's hilarious! I do the exact same thing. Every time we're going for a walk or drive through timber I'm always sizing up the lay or critiquing stumps!


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## Gologit

coastalfaller said:


> That's hilarious! I do the exact same thing. Every time we're going for a walk or drive through timber I'm always sizing up the lay or critiquing stumps!



LOLOL...it's a disease or something. I'm always figuring lead, possible landing sites, truck roads...all the usual stuff. 

I took some friends from out of state to the Redwoods a few years ago. They live in the desert. They were awestruck by the trees. I was planning layouts.


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## forestryworks

bitzercreek1 said:


> I still think about it all the time. Driving down the road or walking through the woods with the wife and kids. The wife yelling at me to quit looking at the damn trees.





coastalfaller said:


> That's hilarious! I do the exact same thing. Every time we're going for a walk or drive through timber I'm always sizing up the lay or critiquing stumps!





Gologit said:


> LOLOL...it's a disease or something. I'm always figuring lead, possible landing sites, truck roads...all the usual stuff.
> 
> I took some friends from out of state to the Redwoods a few years ago. They live in the desert. They were awestruck by the trees. I was planning layouts.



Do ya'll mutter to yourself about layouts and such?

I mutter and point. Some people look where I point and then look at me like WTF?


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## bitzer

I constantly critique stumps. If I'm with the little lady I try to explain to her what they did wrong etc. She usualy just gets pist and asks why do I have to be so critical. Walkin through the woods, "yeah I'd start with that one there and then that one next..." At this point I've got the kids seeing stumps too and the oldest one naming species with the next one not too far behind.


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## coastalfaller

Gologit said:


> LOLOL...it's a disease or something. I'm always figuring lead, possible landing sites, truck roads...all the usual stuff.
> 
> I took some friends from out of state to the Redwoods a few years ago. They live in the desert. They were awestruck by the trees. I was planning layouts.



Haha, isn't that the truth! Can't help ourselves, it's in our blood! Possibly a rare blood disorder!?


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## Gologit

forestryworks said:


> Do ya'll mutter to yourself about layouts and such?
> 
> I mutter and point. Some people look where I point and then look at me like WTF?



Yup...you got the disease. It's incurable. But that's okay.


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## coastalfaller

bitzercreek1 said:


> I constantly critique stumps. If I'm with the little lady I try to explain to her what they did wrong etc. She usualy just gets pist and asks why do I have to be so critical. Walkin through the woods, "yeah I'd start with that one there and then that one next..." At this point I've got the kids seeing stumps too and the oldest one naming species with the next one not too far behind.



LOL, sounds like we're all cut from the same cloth!

Jameson, I don't usually mutter, but do talk out loud! I get the WTF looks though too! Usually from my wife and kids! Although I have to be careful, my 4 year old son is taking an interest now in what Dad does! Lord help me! I'm trying to steer him into dentistry! I'm gonna need someone to support me when I retire!


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## 2dogs

I know the feeling. I take the Boy Scouts out for a hike in the woods and end up telling how to build a lay or fall a leaner. When we climb up on an OG stump I scrape away the leaves and explain the stump to them. I think they could all use a springboard if need be.


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## 056 kid

coastalfaller said:


> LOL, sounds like we're all cut from the same cloth!
> 
> Jameson, I don't usually mutter, but do talk out loud! I get the WTF looks though too! Usually from my wife and kids! Although I have to be careful, my 4 year old son is taking an interest now in what Dad does! Lord help me! I'm trying to steer him into dentistry! I'm gonna need someone to support me when I retire!



So I am not the only one that talks, yells, screams, hollers, sings, while on the saw.

Haha I thought I was maybe alittle bit lulu for being so vocal, I know there are a few foresters that think I am. . .:hmm3grin2orange:

"go on you mother####in piece of ####, you aint too good for gravity, "there ya go ya #####" are commonly spoken words. text gets alittle too vulgar to phrase when things go wrong. . . haha.


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## slowp

There is a local guy who can out scream and yell anybody else. The trouble is he is not very original in his choice of words. One time, I had just driven up and was talking to his dad. A tree went down and we heard a certain word screamed over and over. After a few minutes, I asked his dad if maybe we shouldn't go up and check on him, did he think he was OK?

His dad said, "Well, he's still hollering so he's alive."


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## wvlogger

056 kid said:


> So I am not the only one that talks, yells, screams, hollers, sings, while on the saw.
> 
> Haha I thought I was maybe alittle bit lulu for being so vocal, I know there are a few foresters that think I am. . .:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> "go on you mother####in piece of ####, you aint too good for gravity, "there ya go ya #####" are commonly spoken words. text gets alittle too vulgar to phrase when things go wrong. . . haha.



No you are not the only one. i commonley cuss trees:yoyo:


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## madhatte

Same here. Sometimes they need encouragement.


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## RiverRat2

Gypo Logger said:


> Sure...... you don't Lol
> 
> A guy could get pretty chit faced on 10%. Here in Canada our strongest beer is 6% Black Ice and Extra Stock, but you get a wicked hangover.
> Gypo



I know this is older than dirt,,,

But,,, John,,, How do I know that you know this first hand?????


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## Eccentric

This oughta be good...opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## NORMZILLA44

Hey there's some good stuff on this side of the track'sopcorn:opcorn: I should come over more often.


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## komatsuvarna

Read the whole thing again, Its a good'n.


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## Gologit

NORMZILLA44 said:


> Hey there's some good stuff on this side of the track'sopcorn:opcorn: I should come over more often.



Yup...this is where the good stuff is. Very seldom do we ever get a "which oil should I use" or "which saw should I buy" thread on here.


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## sawinredneck

So what oil do you use?


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## Metals406

sawinredneck said:


> So what oil do you use?



Everyone on this site uses Gary Goo. . . It's mandatory. :msp_razz:


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## Eccentric

Metals406 said:


> Everyone on this site uses Gary Goo. . . It's mandatory. :msp_razz:



But at what ratio......................and in what saw?????????:jester:opcorn:


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## lfnh

opcorn:

well, ok
opcorn: opcorn:


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## Metals406

Eccentric said:


> But at what ratio......................and in what saw?????????:jester:opcorn:



Ratio? Ya poor the whole damn bottle in the fuel tank and run'er like ya stole'er!!






:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Joe46

OK. First let me put my flame suit on:
32:1-Ol Macs and Homelites
40:1- 70 and 80 year Stihl's and Husky's
50:1- All the new plastic saws
16:1- Chinese


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## Gologit

Gologit said:


> Yup...this is where the good stuff is. Very seldom do we ever get a "which oil should I use" or "which saw should I buy" thread on here.



I knew, as soon as I said it, that posting this was a mistake. Buncha smart-aleks. :msp_biggrin:


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## Eccentric

Gologit said:


> I knew, as soon as I said it, that posting this was a mistake. Buncha smart-aleks. :msp_biggrin:



Yep. You asked for it Bob!


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## Gologit

Eccentric said:


> Yep. You asked for it Bob!



LOL...Yup...I should have known better than to give _this_ crew an opening like that.


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## RandyMac

I cut 3.4 cords of Limber Pine, the trees are 30" tall and average 8" dbh, should I use a six cube saw?


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## paccity

absolutly. bigger is always better:msp_biggrin:


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## komatsuvarna

I think everyone should rep the OP.






















































:monkey:


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## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> I cut 3.4 cords of Limber Pine, the trees are 30" tall and average 8" dbh, should I use a six cube saw?



Only if you can't find a bigger saw.


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## Gologit

komatsuvarna said:


> I think everyone should rep the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> :monkey:



Sure...as soon as we cast the Secret Logger's Ballot to decide if it's going to be green...or red.


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## Eccentric

RandyMac said:


> I cut 3.4 cords of Limber Pine, the trees are 30" tall and average 8" dbh, should I use a six cube saw?



Six cubes. Go forth and fear no pecker pole!


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## Metals406

RandyMac said:


> I cut 3.4 cords of Limber Pine, the trees are 30" tall and average 8" dbh, should I use a six cube saw?



I guess, if ya want to limp d i c k your way through it.


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## sawinredneck

Six cubes is fine, but only if you run a 16" bar!


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## RandyMac

Metals406 said:


> I guess, if ya want to limp d i c k your way through it.



I'm not in Montana, I could use mine as a pry bar.


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## Eccentric

RandyMac said:


> I'm not in Montana, I could use mine as a pry bar.



Ciallis covered by the medical plan???


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## Sport Faller

well #### and fried eggs!, how the hell did I miss this thread, Randy, if ye be wadin nuts deep into some Limber Pine you might be well served by usin my Mall 3


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## RandyMac

Eccentric said:


> Ciallis covered by the medical plan???



don't need no friggin' pills, some of me thinks it is still 16.


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## Sport Faller

RandyMac said:


> don't need no friggin' pills, some of me thinks it is still 16.



Careful Randy, you know what they say about too much of that, it might not be cataracts that's makin you go blind :msp_biggrin:


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## Eccentric

RandyMac said:


> don't need no friggin' pills, some of me thinks it is still 16.



I think 26'd be better to shoot for. I know I was in a bit too much of a hurry to "finish the race" at age 16. "Friggin' pills" has two meanings here my friend!:jester:


Got the 'Chero all put together yet? Last pic I saw, it'd been shot, but none of the trim was back on yet. Didn't have the Magnetic McCoolness reinstalled yet either.


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## NORMZILLA44

Gologit said:


> Yup...this is where the good stuff is. Very seldom do we ever get a "which oil should I use" or "which saw should I buy" thread on here.


 No nothing like that, but really guy's. Im new here, and this may have been aske'd before, but Im on the market for a new saw, and which one is better the 372, 440, 460, 7900 dolmar. I want to modify it, and hear they can make a 660 look real silly. And please guy's let's be honest, and no fighting.


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## NORMZILLA44

RandyMac said:


> I cut 3.4 cords of Limber Pine, the trees are 30" tall and average 8" dbh, should I use a six cube saw?


 You mean you don't want a ported mini, with such claim's as to make our big saw's look riddiculous, so silly that we ought too, ship them back to there maker? #### That 6 cubes, or stay on the couch LOL!


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## teatersroad

RandyMac said:


> I cut 3.4 cords of Limber Pine, the trees are 30" tall and average 8" dbh, should I use a six cube saw?



yep - with a 42" bar, grab the end of the bar and swing that saw like a cat by it's tail. should be able to knock that chit down in no time.


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## Eccentric

NORMZILLA44 said:


> No nothing like that, but really guy's. Im new here, and this may have been aske'd before, but Im on the market for a new saw, and which one is better the 372, 440, 460, 7900 dolmar. I want to modify it, and hear they can make a 660 look real silly. And please guy's let's be honest, and no fighting.



Wouldn't you rather ask whether you should get a 346XP or an MS261?opcorn:


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## Cedarkerf

Gologit said:


> I knew, as soon as I said it, that posting this was a mistake. Buncha smart-aleks. :msp_biggrin:



Better than being a bunch of dumb -aleks. Hi Bob


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## paccity

hey brian, you cuttin anything besides stink.:msp_biggrin:


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## lfnh

teatersroad said:


> yep - with a 42" bar, grab the end of the bar and swing that saw like a cat by it's tail. should be able to knock that chit down in no time.



there was someone who would a climbed those 30" hazard pines first


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## Eric106

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, ya it just reeked of, "I did a plunge cut, therefore I am."
> it's probably not fair to critique the newbie plungers, but what the hell do they say about us when we're not around? Lol
> John



I know this is an old thread but I was reading through it and learned a lot.

On a lighter note, did anyone else notice the squirrel at the end of this video? I had to watch it twice to be certain. For some reason it just struck me as very funny. You just have to wonder what it was thinking with it's tree world crashing down around it -- or was it actually in the tree that fell? 

Despite being mostly in the woods, there aren't many tree felling videos with wildlife.

-Eric


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## NORMZILLA44

Whats up gang? How we doing not that I forgot about you guys. But got a like'y From my Pal funky Forest saw man! Kind of a reminder to say hello!


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