# Climbing without a saftety line?



## avalancher (Nov 3, 2008)

I have a large poplar to take down next weekend, and need some advise from anyone. The poplar is around the 70 foot mark, and there is not a branch on the tree until the very top, too far to get a safety line up and over a branch. I normally throw a line over a branch and have someone tend the end on the ground for safety, but in this case I am faced with climbing without one. The tree is right next to a pave road, so without a doubt its going to be a fatal drop if the spurs kick out on me. Climbing to set a pull over rope is mandatory, there are several houses nearby and a drop in the wrong direction isnt going to work.
What is my best option?Set a safety line in a nearby tree?Nearest tree is about 20 feet.Double wrapping your flip line, is it sufficient in the case of a spur kicking out to hold you until you regain your footing?


----------



## Marc (Nov 3, 2008)

avalancher said:


> I have a large poplar to take down next weekend, and need some advise from anyone. The poplar is around the 70 foot mark, and there is not a branch on the tree until the very top, too far to get a safety line up and over a branch. I normally throw a line over a branch and have someone tend the end on the ground for safety, but in this case I am faced with climbing without one. The tree is right next to a pave road, so without a doubt its going to be a fatal drop if the spurs kick out on me. Climbing to set a pull over rope is mandatory, there are several houses nearby and a drop in the wrong direction isnt going to work.
> What is my best option?Set a safety line in a nearby tree?Nearest tree is about 20 feet.Double wrapping your flip line, is it sufficient in the case of a spur kicking out to hold you until you regain your footing?



**Disclaimer*
Not a tree climber, nor expert on tree climbing
*End disclaimer**

Just for the sake of discussion, say this were a hypothetical situation, one could set anchors of some sort every ten feet or so as you'd do lead climbing and have someone belay you. As a matter of fact, I'd much rather take a fall lead climbing up a tree than a rock face (which is where it'd most likely happen to me).


----------



## blewgrass (Nov 3, 2008)

i climb with two fliplines without a top belay. i like the idea of setting anchors as you go if you're not entirely comfortable on just a flipline, would it work to girth hitch the tree with a sling and clip into that? poplars tend to have that slippery waxy bark which sucks if you gaff out.


----------



## aktoyota (Nov 3, 2008)

When I first started spur climbing I would use a short length of climbing line with a loop on one end and a prusik on the other. Choke the tree your climbing with the loop and then use a locking caribiner on the prusik to adjust the length. Slid it up ahead of your flip line as a safety. Its a little slower but if you're worried about a fall it will tighten up immediately and you can then regain your footing. Just a little tip for someone who's not the most comfortable. I still use it on trees with a wierd lean or when transitioning to a climbing line or such. It can also be used as another flip line though be careful since its not chainsaw safe.


----------



## oharatree (Nov 3, 2008)

If you gaff out but have a lanyard around the tree you'll be fine. Otherwise, why would lanyards exist? I have gaffed out hundreds of times and I have rarely moved more that a foot down the tree. if you have limited experience climbing you may want to reconsider the project if you are not comfortable.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 3, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Wear a long sleeve shirt or jacket, good gloves and keep your lanyard as short as comfortable. Don't worry about kicking out, the friction from your clothing, the lanyard.......and from your face dragging down the side of the tree will slow your descent. When you gain your composure after your slide down just hook back in and climb to the top like it was nothing!
> 
> Are you planning on rapping down the pull line?



My first time spiking Jeff yanks me off the crew and " drives" to a little pine where he gives me some spikes and a rope. He says" run up there, tie this rope on and come down it. " I did. Then he just dropped the whole thing on the well head.
20 years later I finally figure out which foot goes to what spike but I still do it that way... ceptin the well head thing. 
Comeon Dan, he has to get up there somehow. Who doesn't spike up with just a lanyard to set a rope? Granted its a skill of great importance but all pull lines are not the same.


----------



## avalancher (Nov 3, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Wear a long sleeve shirt or jacket, good gloves and keep your lanyard as short as comfortable. Don't worry about kicking out, the friction from your clothing, the lanyard.......and from your face dragging down the side of the tree will slow your descent. When you gain your composure after your slide down just hook back in and climb to the top like it was nothing!
> 
> Are you planning on rapping down the pull line?



Thanks! It was my face that I was trying to save! Had enough shaves from bark, thank you very much. 
Yep, I descend using a figure 8 descender, nothing fancy.


----------



## avalancher (Nov 3, 2008)

oharatree said:


> If you gaff out but have a lanyard around the tree you'll be fine. Otherwise, why would lanyards exist? I have gaffed out hundreds of times and I have rarely moved more that a foot down the tree. if you have limited experience climbing you may want to reconsider the project if you are not comfortable.



Its not that I am not comfortable using just gaffs and flip line, it was the way that i learned, but I had an old timer tell me a few weeks ago,"you dont climb without a safety line, period." Problem is I have run into a few circumstances where a safety line just wasnt going to happen, and without an oldtimer handy to point out how to rig one, so I went with what I had.
In the past I have always double wrapped my lanyard and felt okay with it, but have had a couple of times when I went "nuts to wood".


----------



## JS Landscaping (Nov 3, 2008)

When you say safety line im guess you mean your climbing line? If you use a throwball you should definatly be able to set a climbing line in a sturdy crotch even if it is 70 feet up. Use the two handed "box" throw. But if your tying in at 70 feet remember you have to have at least 140 feet of climbing line if you are climbing on a Double rope techinque. Especially if you tie in at the top if you spike up, make sure you have enough rope to get back down, Been there once and it wasnt fun having to body thurst back up to a limb to lower my T.I.P. If you can set a climbing line as your "saftey" go for it. Personally Id just spike up being that its a removal, using a double flip line. You can even double wrap a flip line as long as its long enough around the spar, and if you gaff out, the pull on the flip line will make it cinch tight around the spar, and you really wont go anywhere. If you are not comfortable climbing on just spikes and fliplines, pass the job up, and live to climb another day. You really wont fall too far with a lanyard (flipline). It hurts like a B*tch slidding down and eating bark, but your instinct will take over usually and you will be bear huggin the tree. Take it slow, keep your rear out and dont be afraid to lean out on your lanyard, if you get too close to the spar, its easier to gaff out. Climb high, climb safe, Good luck!


----------



## masiman (Nov 3, 2008)

I don't get the part where you have someone tending your safety. Are they anchored and have you on a belay device? Seems like alot of wasted time for the belayer since you can self belay your safety with your climbing system.

Someone also said be careful if you use your safety as a second lanyard because it is not chainsaw safe. The wire cores may slow the saw down but I'd trust my chaps to stop the saw before I thought the wire core would resist cutting.

If you are unsure, I'd tie into that adjacent tree. A 20' swing & slam is better than 20' fall.

A second lanyard is extremely handy for those trees that have too many branches in the way to set a safety from the ground (pines, etc.) Setting your safety up a second lanyard is very workable. If you plan on climbing more, I'd recommend the second lanyard. 

"It's better to be a live dog than a dead lion".


----------



## lxt (Nov 3, 2008)

when I started.....it was *free climb* if you used the sissy strap man did you take a pounding, I dont know if any one remembers but big orange had the worst "buck straps" ever!! trying to adjust that thing in the air would surely bring death to ya!......thanks to gibbs for a wonderful device!!



LXT.........


----------



## treemandan (Nov 3, 2008)

lxt said:


> when I started.....it was *free climb* if you used the sissy strap man did you take a pounding, I dont know if any one remembers but big orange had the worst "buck straps" ever!! trying to adjust that thing in the air would surely bring death to ya!......thanks to gibbs for a wonderful device!!
> 
> 
> 
> LXT.........



That little device is what brought me out of retirement I swear. After a few years of everybody making fun of my hardhat and me trying to work those straps I said " You can keep this!" I saw those ascenders and came back.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 3, 2008)

Yup, freeclimbing to the top for me (with my climbing line clipped to the back of my saddle), clip in buckstrap when I get to the top and tie in climbing line, unclip buckstrap and go to work. For you, just use a flipline and tie in climbing line at the top. 

Disclaimer: Freeclimb at your own risk.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 3, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Yup, freeclimbing to the top for me (with my climbing line clipped to the back of my saddle), clip in buckstrap when I get to the top and tie in climbing line, unclip buckstrap and go to work. For you, just use a flipline and tie in climbing line at the top.
> 
> Disclaimer: Freeclimb at your own risk.



We allready knew that.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 3, 2008)

I know Dan, I just like to state the obvious, I hate to assume anyone is smarter than they are.


----------



## BCMA (Nov 3, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Yup, freeclimbing to the top for me (with my climbing line clipped to the back of my saddle), clip in buckstrap when I get to the top and tie in climbing line, unclip buckstrap and go to work. For you, just use a flipline and tie in climbing line at the top.
> 
> Disclaimer: Freeclimb at your own risk.



FREE CLIMB…YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have one of the most dangerous occupations in the world- and some are out there…free-climbing….yikes!

The tree climber who was free climbing here a few years ago fell and died. Two of my ex-employees fell free climbing (not while working in our company). I fired one of the employees because I caught him free climbing, and felt that he was an unsafe climber. He fell a week later- 55 feet (on his own job) (no insurance) and crushed the bones in his face. Last year another ex-employee fell and killed himself in front of his son when he unhooked to go around some branches. This guy had been climbing for over twenty years. We have a policy in our company- ABSOLUTELY- no free climbing.

To answer the original post. You should have no problem using a flip-line and spurs to climb the tree. Under no circumstance, unhook your flip-line without another TIP.

Also, make sure your spurs are sharp and sharpened correctly.


----------



## Slvrmple72 (Nov 4, 2008)

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!


----------



## randyg (Nov 4, 2008)

masiman said:


> I don't get the part where you have someone tending your safety. Are they anchored and have you on a belay device? Seems like alot of wasted time for the belayer since you can self belay your safety with your climbing system.
> 
> Someone also said be careful if you use your safety as a second lanyard because it is not chainsaw safe. The wire cores may slow the saw down but I'd trust my chaps to stop the saw before I thought the wire core would resist cutting.
> 
> ...




ANY un-controled swing is the SAME AS a fall. If you swing 20' you will hit with the same force/speed as if falling 20". THIS IS FACT.

If you tie in to that tree 20' away AND keep flip line/buck strap around tree you are spiking. . .


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

randyg said:


> ANY un-controled swing is the SAME AS a fall. If you swing 20' you will hit with the same force/speed as if falling 20". THIS IS FACT.
> 
> If you tie in to that tree 20' away AND keep flip line/buck strap around tree you are spiking. . .



A good slam is never good, especially if you can't get your body turned to face it in time. Pushed off many a time to swing and missed the target and thought oh :censored: here we go!


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

BCMA said:


> FREE CLIMB…YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have one of the most dangerous occupations in the world- and some are out there…free-climbing….yikes!
> 
> The tree climber who was free climbing here a few years ago fell and died. Two of my ex-employees fell free climbing (not while working in our company). I fired one of the employees because I caught him free climbing, and felt that he was an unsafe climber. He fell a week later- 55 feet (on his own job) (no insurance) and crushed the bones in his face. Last year another ex-employee fell and killed himself in front of his son when he unhooked to go around some branches. This guy had been climbing for over twenty years. We have a policy in our company- ABSOLUTELY- no free climbing.
> 
> ...




Sometimes I wonder how many actually really climb on this site. Seems to be a wide gap, between the guys that are really smooth, controlled, confident and the other guys (you know: the whiners).


----------



## treeseer (Nov 4, 2008)

avalancher said:


> I had an old timer tell me a few weeks ago,"you dont climb without a safety line, period."


Sounds like the old timer told you an old wives tale. It's good to respect your elders and all but spiking with a lanyard is safe enough IF you are experienced.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Hey man you don't live to grow old freeclimbing!
> 
> I've fired more than one climber for the offense. Nobody freeclimbs on my workmans comp.



I am glad you have a system that works for you.

My dad is 55, been at it for 35, and is as good a climber and athlete as anyone in the biz. Is that old? 

A climber needs to be aware of his situation and abilities, and keep them in check at all times. If I ever feel I can't safetly do something I will adjust. I have proven myself to be an excellent climber, and find times I prefer to freeclimb (not tied in). Blanket statements like "never freeclimb", are not my reality. In fact, I was taught to climb that way on trees then poles, now if you haven't done a lot of it, by all means don't do it. I climb on a regular basis with only spikes on for hunting and love it.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I'm 52, so no, I don't think 55 is that old.
> 
> It's pretty old to have not wizened up to the hazards of free climbing though!
> 
> ...




I get your point for sure, and it's probably a good regulation to have. I basically work for myself (family) so when I climb it's my rules. I also do the stuff that other guys walk from, so I do it my way.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

Yeah well Kevin? plastic hip and a fake knee from the first time. BUT they gave him like 60 G's so I guess it all worked out. I don't know how much they gave him the second time but I was there to see him crash out of the driveway and land on his elbows, thank goodness for recycling. There is plenty of plastic for him now. Beleive it or not there was a third.
He was really tough, big dude, could kick anybodies arse just by looking at him, drank JD in the morning, had a tatoo of the Tasmainian Devil running around with an electric chainsaw carved into his skull. I love ya buddy, still out there? I mean up there.
Mr. Simcox was another " wonder player". There isn't enough time left on this planet to go into detail but we all love him to. I miss ya man, where have you been? 
Nails, No I can't tell you nothing BUT just tell your dad to hold on a second, shoot a top rope and have him walk you up. Its just common sense amigo. 
The fact that you know you can do it without should be enough to make you do it with.
Go ahead top all the trees you want but for crying out loud dude stop being a total moron about THIS.
Oh wait! You got kids? Well these days even I think about that when I am about to do something stupid. So stop being stupid, stupid. I think you ned to see more pics like this. HERE'S LOOKIN AT YA KID!







I guess he didn't know about the cardinal rules either, or he just plainly forgot. 

And of course you know what happens if you don't follow the rules even when you are doing other types of work?





If you think a chainsaw is loud you should hear vent alarm on those tanks. In fact if you don't hear the vent alarm you are supposed to stop. Now this accident didn't really hurt or kill anybody... yet. Thing about the people who have to live with your decisions.
Oh, and it happens to everybody not just someone else. Now, do people really live to be 50?


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

By the way, The oil is 26 inches down. What do you all think about my trees? If you think it don't look good now wait til they start digging. M and F'er! Put a rope on yor ass boy! You are pissing everybody off with that crap. Put the old man too on, lets have achat with him.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I get your point for sure, and it's probably a good regulation to have. I basically work for myself (family) so when I climb it's my rules. I also do the stuff that other guys walk from, so I do it my way.


 Change your way of thinking nails. I saw my brother fall as a result of gaffing out "freeclimbing" up a poplar in fact I think it was, not good. It aint fun building a wheelchair ramp for your bro. Not to be a prick but I we are friends (I think) so I have to say what I think on this one. After that expierience I always use a lanyard, it would have been so easy to avoid that accident. I even follow the ansi thing where you are reqiured to tie in twice when cutting...well most of the time. Just cuz yer good don't mean yer invincible. MDS


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

I found you saddle buddy, it must have fallen off the truck on your way hunting. Looks like it would really suck to be " in the middle" on anything.






This kid was bugging me about wanting to use a saw so I let him take the 26. Five seconds later while I am dumping saline solution over the gash in his leg and trying to close it up a little I really wish I has listen to the right side.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Change your way of thinking nails. I saw my brother fall as a result of gaffing out "freeclimbing" up a poplar in fact I think it was, not good. It aint fun building a wheelchair ramp for your bro. Not to be a prick but I we are friends (I think) so I have to say what I think on this one. After that expierience I always use a lanyard, it would have been so easy to avoid that accident. I even follow the ansi thing where you are reqiured to tie in twice when cutting...well most of the time. Just cuz yer good don't mean yer invincible. MDS



oof.Not good. sorry to hear.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

By the way dan, thanks for that gorry pic back there, jeez. Good point though. Avalancher, if you want to climb trees go to work for a tree service, preferably one thats actually good.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> A good slam is never good, especially if you can't get your body turned to face it in time. Pushed off many a time to swing and missed the target and thought oh :censored: here we go!



Oh? so you have "missed" a time or two in your life? Interesting my friend. Freeclimb? No. I get paid. I get paid to do it right. Its Ok now, you are still here, just make a change... really. You have to do this one Nails, its really not up to you actually.
I was going to let it go originally since you are the tough guy but I know inside of every tough guy there is a bloody broken mass of flesh and bone crying for his mommy.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

treemandan said:


> oof.Not good. sorry to hear.


Yeah, thanks dude. You know the funny thing about that whole deal? I never stopped climbing, even right after all that. My boss gave me a week off and I went to work for this other scumbag next door for that week. I guess I am a real freak, I dont know, maybe it helped to be busy. That was like 15 years ago now. He was really good too, just reckless and liked to party a little too much, one of those dudes, you know the type. Car crash got him 6 months latter, crazy bastard. All that rehab for nothing.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> By the way dan, thanks for that gorry pic back there, jeez. Good point though. Avalancher, if you want to climb trees go to work for a tree service, preferably one thats actually good.



I have NEVER and I mean NEVER been up a tree without being tied in. I might go up a pole naked til about 10 feet but usually I put the lanyard on before my spike touches bark. I truly am afraid of heights, I might fall with out a rope.
People always asked me if I was afraid to fall out of a tree. I reply that I don't thinks its possible for me to fall OUT of a tree. Some people complain I take to long when i tie in 6 ways from Sunday... F em!
I actaully did fall out of a tree, I was putting my one foot on the first branch of a real little crap apple with my other foot still on the ground, I slipped and BAM, right on my arse. Hurt like hell, rattled my brain.
It is true though, making sure you are going to be allright is a real big PITA. I just figured that out, pita, I was waiting for felaffel.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

Hint: its the little ones ya gotta watch out for.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah, thanks dude. You know the funny thing about that whole deal? I never stopped climbing, even right after all that. My boss gave me a week off and I went to work for this other scumbag next door for that week. I guess I am a real freak, I dont know, maybe it helped to be busy. That was like 15 years ago now. He was really good too, just reckless and liked to party a little too much, one of those dudes, you know the type. Car crash got him 6 months latter, crazy bastard. All that rehab for nothing.



Ooof times a million.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Hint: its the little ones ya gotta watch out for.



" its the little things that kill, tear right at my brain again, its the little things that kill."


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks again, like I said its been a long time so I dont mind talking about it really. I just get serious about some things, I dont know why people take this stuff so lightly. Many mornings I've felt like like it was D day at Normandy of something, just going to a big tree. Climb for firewood...Blahh!


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

treemandan said:


> " its the little things that kill, tear right at my brain again, its the little things that kill."


 Thats a good tune right there, I was a 90's boy for sure, I gave up skynard a long time ago, lol.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Thats a good tune right there, I was a 90's boy for sure, I gave up skynard a long time ago, lol.



You did what !!!? That's about as bad as Nails today.

Het guess what song I am playing. Can you hear from where you are at. Turn it up!


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

Hey man, is that freedom rock? lol


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

treemandan said:


> By the way, The oil is 26 inches down. What do you all think about my trees? If you think it don't look good now wait til they start digging. M and F'er! Put a rope on yor ass boy! You are pissing everybody off with that crap. Put the old man too on, lets have achat with him.



Why are you so worked up about how I climb? It's just climbing.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Hey man, is that freedom rock? lol



F major barred
Whiskey bottles

A minor
brand new cars

F major barred
oak tree

A minor
you're in my way

Then just go nuts in the key of A 

You should hang out with Treeco. He has like 20 speakers sitting in a circle in the basement and you all go in there and sit while he spins the records and talks about beans. He use to jam towels in the dryer vent outside so the neighbors wouldn't cry but they sure as chit did anyway.
beleive it or not he is actually more childish than most of us. rock on Danny! 
I lent him my mom's CD player and it was like pulling teeth getting it back. She was going to kill him! Danny, you have no idea what you were in for, that gun would have really come in handy. Remember that? I called you up and said " Dude, I need that Cd palyer back before my mom kills you". You would not stand a chance.

Oh, the ragman draws circles
Up and down the block.
I'd ask him what the matter was
But I know that he don't talk.
And the ladies treat me kindly
And furnish me with tape,
But deep inside my heart
I know I can't escape.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Well, Shakespeare, he's in the alley
With his pointed shoes and his bells,
Speaking to some French girl,
Who says she knows me well.
And I would send a message
To find out if she's talked,
But the post office has been stolen
And the mailbox is locked.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Mona tried to tell me
To stay away from the train line.
She said that all the railroad men
Just drink up your blood like wine.
An' I said, "Oh, I didn't know that,
But then again, there's only one I've met
An' he just smoked my eyelids
An' punched my cigarette."
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Grandpa died last week
And now he's buried in the rocks,
But everybody still talks about
How badly they were shocked.
But me, I expected it to happen,
I knew he'd lost control
When he built a fire on Main Street
And shot it full of holes.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the senator came down here
Showing ev'ryone his gun,
Handing out free tickets
To the wedding of his son.
An' me, I nearly got busted
An' wouldn't it be my luck
To get caught without a ticket
And be discovered beneath a truck.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the preacher looked so baffled
When I asked him why he dressed
With twenty pounds of headlines
Stapled to his chest.
But he cursed me when I proved it to him,
Then I whispered, "Not even you can hide.
You see, you're just like me,
I hope you're satisfied."
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the rainman gave me two cures,
Then he said, "Jump right in."
The one was Texas medicine,
The other was just railroad gin.
An' like a fool I mixed them
An' it strangled up my mind,
An' now people just get uglier
An' I have no sense of time.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

When Ruthie says come see her
In her honky-tonk lagoon,
Where I can watch her waltz for free
'Neath her Panamanian moon.
An' I say, "Aw come on now,
You must know about my debutante."
An' she says, "Your debutante just knows what you need
But I know what you want."
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again.

Now the bricks lay on Grand Street
Where the neon madmen climb.
They all fall there so perfectly,
It all seems so well timed.
An' here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice.
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end,
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

And ya'll had trouble figuring me out?
If I remember corrctly the song is in D minor. A " ballad" key dylan like to use. Pretty much the same key for The Hurricane.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 4, 2008)

Dylan right?


----------



## treemandan (Nov 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Dylan right?



good for gettin hammered on open mic night.


----------



## Dadatwins (Nov 4, 2008)

avalancher said:


> I have a large poplar to take down next weekend, and need some advise from anyone. The poplar is around the 70 foot mark, and there is not a branch on the tree until the very top, too far to get a safety line up and over a branch. I normally throw a line over a branch and have someone tend the end on the ground for safety, but in this case I am faced with climbing without one. The tree is right next to a pave road, so without a doubt its going to be a fatal drop if the spurs kick out on me. Climbing to set a pull over rope is mandatory, there are several houses nearby and a drop in the wrong direction isnt going to work.
> What is my best option?Set a safety line in a nearby tree?Nearest tree is about 20 feet.Double wrapping your flip line, is it sufficient in the case of a spur kicking out to hold you until you regain your footing?



Why can't a pull line be set from the ground? 70' is throwball territory or a short pull with a bigshot. As for having someone tending line on the ground does this mean you do not have a friction hitch on your line on the way up? Poplar will hold the gaffs very well as it is a soft wood when alive, but hardens when dead and breaks easily. I have taken a slide down trunk wood and it is no fun waiting for chest hair to regrow after it has been extracted by hickory bark.  be careful.


----------



## JS Landscaping (Nov 4, 2008)

Yea I agree, those hickorys can give you some nasty bark bites. I used to be a free climber myself, til a mishap with the previous company I worked for. It was free climbing spikless everyday on any conifer type tree. Was in a white pine going up to about 70 feet to repair some storm damage. Was getting crap from the boss's son, who was the forman at the time, about having my lanyard around the tree free climbing. Said I was taking too long. Well I un-cliped to get over this one leader that was comming out at a wierd angle to continute my ascend up the spar. Had my right foot and hand on 2 branches, and my left foot was being lifted up to get up and over this leader when the branch that my right foot was on gave out. This was around 60ft. Not a good feeling to be hanging by your arm at 60 feet unclipped, scrambling for something to get your feet on. The branch that gave out was actually larger in diamiter then the one my hand was on, snapped right out at the collar. Must have been weakend and I didnt realize it. Was a close call for sure, got to the top after I climbed the rest of the way up with my lanyard around the tree. Tied in, did what I had to do and came down ready to swing at the forman. Never again will I free-climb, thats what they make the 2-n-1 lanyard for. If im on spikes, the lanyard is around the tree, pretty much its always around the tree unless im ascending on my rope or decending or moving about the canopy. Some say just to free climb, if that works for you then great, I personaly dont want to find out what it feels like to fall and eat the ground. Rather live to climb another day, and enjoy those cold ones at the end of a good day of climbing


----------



## BCMA (Nov 4, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Why are you so worked up about how I climb? It's just climbing.



Nails, the reason that we are so worked up man- is because there are people and other climbers that care about you. We do not want to see you or anyone else end up on the Arboriculture Injuries and Fatalities thread. Man, you’re too good to die early! Plus, you give me a lot of things to shoot at!  So by all means, get tied in and don’t free climb. Climb safe.


----------



## lxt (Nov 4, 2008)

Wow I mention "free climb" & nails takes the azz kickin, Look that was then!! I might free climb here and there but only if im sure!!

funny thing is when I took the skills test for utility lineman we used fall arrest, once you are certified...you free climb!! check out some pic`s on this trade....hanging off fiberglass ladders beside insulators 100+ ft up with nothing but a leather safety strap keeping you attached to the ladder?????

I dont know certain trades, certain rules!! as I once said...there is no greater authority up there than myself & if I screw up...no one to blame but me!! 

freeclimb...cant be any dumber than cutting your rope & falling!! do I do it all the time............NO! 

Be safe!!

LXT..............


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

lxt said:


> Wow I mention "free climb" & nails takes the azz kickin, Look that was then!! I might free climb here and there but only if im sure!!
> 
> funny thing is when I took the skills test for utility lineman we used fall arrest, once you are certified...you free climb!! check out some pic`s on this trade....hanging off fiberglass ladders beside insulators 100+ ft up with nothing but a leather safety strap keeping you attached to the ladder?????
> 
> ...




I agree, I don't do it on every tree anymore, I used to freeclimb them all to the top to tie in, I didn't have a buckstrap. Now I pick and choose depending on the conditions.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 4, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Nails, the reason that we are so worked up man- is because there are people and other climbers that care about you. We do not want to see you or anyone else end up on the Arboriculture Injuries and Fatalities thread. Man, you’re too good to die early! Plus, you give me a lot of things to shoot at!  So by all means, get tied in and don’t free climb. Climb safe.



I understand and appreciate the concern, especially comming from you.


----------



## masiman (Nov 5, 2008)

randyg said:


> ANY un-controled swing is the SAME AS a fall. If you swing 20' you will hit with the same force/speed as if falling 20". THIS IS FACT.
> 
> If you tie in to that tree 20' away AND keep flip line/buck strap around tree you are spiking. . .



Check your "FACTS" randyg. PE(Potential Energy) is based on your height and weight (PE=mgh). A 20' swing has the KE (Kinetic Energy) of your change in height. The horizontal swing will be 20' but the height of the fall be less than 20' unless you are even with your tip. I hope you are not climbing above your TIP, a no-no.

A simple example: TIP - 50' in other tree, Climbers height 20'. Length of rope/pendulum is 36' (pythagorean theorem). Meaning that the climber will effectively fall 6' while swinging on that 36' foot lead, across the 20' until he hits the other tree (starting out at 30' below tip ending up at 36' below tip at the bottom of the swing). The higher you get the TIP, the less your fall will be.

I don't how much climbing experience you have but you'd be smart to know that it's usually better to take a swing fall where you at least have a chance to dissipate some of the impact by glancing off your impact point and still maintain control after impacts. If you fall without a TIP, it all goes into the ground. Very little chance to dissipate that.

At least research the facts next time.


----------



## Slvrmple72 (Nov 5, 2008)

That's still gonna hurt like heck! You would definitely want a "swing and a miss " on that one! LOL


----------



## masiman (Nov 5, 2008)

Slvrmple72 said:


> That's still gonna hurt like heck! You would definitely want a "swing and a miss " on that one! LOL



No disagreement there  

I just couldn't believe that someone thought a 20' fall and a 20' swing were equivalent and try to tell everyone it was a fact. The only time they are equivalent is if the climber is even with a TIP at 20', if the TIP is higher your fall will be higher but your swing will always be 20'.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 5, 2008)

This thread has made me a little sick with this sight. Not that anyone cares really, but its actually made me think about taking a break from it. Its gotta be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard argued here. Nails my bucket was an asplundh truck, still has all the stickers inside, I like the one of thier "5 life saving rules" that reads "100% TIE-IN to tree or aerial lift". Run that by the "old mange" sometime, company man that he was. Latter, MDS.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 5, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> This thread has made me a little sick with this sight. Not that anyone cares really, but its actually made me think about taking a break from it. Its gotta be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard argued here. Nails my bucket was an asplundh truck, still has all the stickers inside, I like the one of thier "5 life saving rules" that reads "100% TIE-IN to tree or aerial lift". Run that by the "old mange" sometime, company man that he was. Latter, MDS.



don't you have a job to go to? 
Yeah, sick. That is why i started the other thread. Thanks for your support.
Love them stickers, got em all pasted on the inside of my forehead.
I seen a guy pop out and hit the ground. Sometimes you are Ok though, not often, sometimes.
Oh and MDS, I care.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 5, 2008)

treemandan said:


> don't you have a job to go to?
> Yeah, sick. That is why i started the other thread. Thanks for your support.
> Love them stickers, got em all pasted on the inside of my forehead.
> I seen a guy pop out and hit the ground. Sometimes you are Ok though, not often, sometimes.
> Oh and MDS, I care.


 Well thanks for caring dan. Yeah I got some estimates to do, and then some other errrands like putting some money in the bank and picking up some Red Cedar I had milled - anyone want it? No on the job to go do unfortunately, work is dead but I may have a nice winter job coming up soon hopefully. Its clearing trees back from two miles of fencing at this exotic bird sanctuary in town, so the critters cant get in and eat the flamingo's etc. You ought to see them flamingo's dan, just your kind of bird, no doubt, lol.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 5, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Hang in there! (pun intended, LOL.)
> 
> This thread took a major derailment and ended up being about free climbing.
> 
> The original question was about the necessity of being 'top roped' when climbing a spar using spikes and a lanyard.



Thank treeco, lol.


----------



## southsoundtree (Nov 5, 2008)

The late, great mountaineer and outdoor educator Paul Petzoldt said of mountain climbers

"There are old climbers, and bold climbers, but no old, bold climbers."

I think that this applies to trees as well.

Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. Get it done. Be safe.


----------



## masiman (Nov 5, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> This thread has made me a little sick with this sight. Not that anyone cares really, but its actually made me think about taking a break from it. Its gotta be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard argued here. Nails my bucket was an asplundh truck, still has all the stickers inside, I like the one of thier "5 life saving rules" that reads "100% TIE-IN to tree or aerial lift". Run that by the "old mange" sometime, company man that he was. Latter, MDS.



Think of it like the family at holidays, it's great to see everyone but after a few days it's time to go. Take a break if needed, the family will still be here in some form :greenchainsaw:


----------



## randyg (Nov 5, 2008)

masiman said:


> Check your "FACTS" randyg. PE(Potential Energy) is based on your height and weight (PE=mgh). A 20' swing has the KE (Kinetic Energy) of your change in height. The horizontal swing will be 20' but the height of the fall be less than 20' unless you are even with your tip. I hope you are not climbing above your TIP, a no-no.
> 
> A simple example: TIP - 50' in other tree, Climbers height 20'. Length of rope/pendulum is 36' (pythagorean theorem). Meaning that the climber will effectively fall 6' while swinging on that 36' foot lead, across the 20' until he hits the other tree (starting out at 30' below tip ending up at 36' below tip at the bottom of the swing). The higher you get the TIP, the less your fall will be.
> 
> ...




YOU ARE ALMOST 100% CORRECT

My statement should have included the verbage ("when you are at the same height as TIP which is 20 feet away, and you uncontrolably swing and hit directly below TIP, you will now be 20 feet below TIP and will hit with same force as if you would have fallen straight down 20 feet") or something like that. Please forgive the shortcoming, as college was 30 something years ago.

MY MAIN POINT WAS TO KEEP FLIP AROUND STEM YOU ARE SPIKING AND

AVOID UNCONTROLLED SWING ???


----------



## randyg (Nov 5, 2008)

*masiman is correct!!!!!!!!!!*

Sorry If I Mis-led Anyone, Please Forgive Me??????????


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 5, 2008)

randyg said:


> Sorry If I Mis-led Anyone, Please Forgive Me??????????


It don't matter dude, it all still hurts.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 5, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Well thanks for caring dan. Yeah I got some estimates to do, and then some other errrands like putting some money in the bank and picking up some Red Cedar I had milled - anyone want it? No on the job to go do unfortunately, work is dead but I may have a nice winter job coming up soon hopefully. Its clearing trees back from two miles of fencing at this exotic bird sanctuary in town, so the critters cant get in and eat the flamingo's etc. You ought to see them flamingo's dan, just your kind of bird, no doubt, lol.



Flamingos are ok I guess but lately I have just been surounded by





Buzzards.


----------



## tree MDS (Nov 5, 2008)

Good one dan, I still promise Flamingo pics soon, lol.


----------



## oldirty (Nov 5, 2008)

treemandan said:


> lately I have just been surounded by
> 
> 
> 
> ...



my friend!!!!!!!


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 6, 2008)

Pretty bird.........I just thought he was kinda quiet..................


----------



## masiman (Nov 7, 2008)

randyg said:


> Sorry If I Mis-led Anyone, Please Forgive Me??????????



Pretty much forgotten. The important part is that facts are settled, not who was right and who was wrong


----------



## mcoleman88 (Nov 7, 2008)

Nice work nails. Is that Dumb and Dumber? Someone sold a blind kid a dead bird.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 7, 2008)

mcoleman88 said:


> Nice work nails. Is that Dumb and Dumber? Someone sold a blind kid a dead bird.



Now that's what I'm talkin'bout, Dumb and Dumber it is! Thanks for snagin the rebound.


----------



## treemandan (Nov 7, 2008)

oldirty said:


> my friend!!!!!!!



Thinkin of you. xoxoxo


----------



## Rftreeman (Nov 7, 2008)

lxt said:


> when I started.....it was *free climb* if you used the sissy strap man did you take a pounding, I dont know if any one remembers but big orange had the worst "buck straps" ever!! trying to adjust that thing in the air would surely bring death to ya!


same here, the only strap I ever had back then was about 24 inches long and not adjustable and was only used to hold you long enough to tie in or to help hold your balance while out on a different leader or limb then they gave us them dang buck straps you speak of and yes the where the worst ever.....


back on topic: just use your flip line or what ever you have and as stated before, you'll be fine.


----------



## Rftreeman (Nov 8, 2008)

I just wanted to add on 2 of the last 3 trees I climbed I would have been killed or f-ed up if I had not been using a lanyard, the first time was a dead red oak and both spikes came out (I didn't kick them in good, thought my weight was enough) and the second was a removal on a sweet gum, pretty much the same thing as the first time, that is a habit I need to break and start kicking them better but my point is that I'm here to tell it because I use the 100% tie-in rule now and i was one of the worlds worst about free climbing when I was younger and 100 pounds less.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Nov 8, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> I just wanted to add on 2 of the last 3 trees I climbed I would have been killed or f-ed up if I had not been using a lanyard, the first time was a dead red oak and both spikes came out (I didn't kick them in good, thought my weight was enough) and the second was a removal on a sweet gum, pretty much the same thing as the first time, that is a habit I need to break and start kicking them better but my point is that I'm here to tell it because I use the 100% tie-in rule now and i was one of the worlds worst about free climbing when I was younger and 100 pounds less.



Glad to see you used the lanyard. 100 pounds less? You must have a huge gut like some of these guys talk about. I know it's all muscle, lol. 

I climb everything, I suppose that's why I stay in shape. Seriously though, an invasive gut has to be a climbing hazzard in itself.


----------



## 1I'dJak (Nov 8, 2008)

I climb way too many trees, way too high out to not use a lanyard...plus if I fell and it came time to collect compo, it'd be a hard one to explain...we pound up tall trees all day with two steelcore lanyards...always got a strap on


----------

