# d'Oh Sanborn screwed up again, and still lived through it.



## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 26, 2007)

Since i joined the crowd in laying into cisco the kid, here is my owmyfrigginglord moment of the from today.

I fully cut out my TIP for the first time in 15 years of climbing on rope.  

It was a small spar, and I was so comfortable that I was joking with my primary contractor. I knew that my line was up there, I regularly leave it up to put a notch in the the spar.

I went from step 1 to step 3 without the normal step 2 of re crotch the climbing line.

Like i said. It was small so it laid up in the adjacent tree as I intended, so as to not bounce into the house. I still nearly beshat myself as I saw it go down while I was crotche in to the top of it.


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## RedlineIt (Oct 26, 2007)

JPS,



> I knew that my line was up there, I regularly leave it up to put a notch in the the spar.



Wondering why you would use this as SOP? I mean, once you've got the face cut in it is useless as a TIP, no? Why not make it: 

Step 1. Haul out TIP.

Step 2. Retie.

Step 3. Facecut.

Mistake can't happen again with this SOP.



RedlineIt


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## Adkpk (Oct 26, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I knew that my line was up there, I regularly leave it up to put a notch in the the spar.



Sorry to be a pain, but what does this mean, "I regularly leave it up to put a notch in the spar". 

Hey, TreeCo lets hear it. My father got a tickle in the service. Was pronounced dead and then was brought back to life. Come on give it up now that you got this far.


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## ciscoguy01 (Oct 26, 2007)

*As longggg*



TreeCo said:


> It was about 1987 and was cutting a limb off of an elm tree and it brushed the 10,800 line that ran between houses along their back yards. I was in a small bucket truck using a Stihl 09. I felt heavy muscle spasms in my arm and dropped the saw, it kept running. Luckily it was a removal and I was letting the limbs fold down and break off....so the limb was still attached to the tree. The limb just brushed the power line and fell to the ground.
> 
> I had someone get my saw for me and continued working. I didn't say anything until the job was done at the end of the day.
> 
> I got lucky!



As longggggg as you DID NOT get hurt, ANDDDD you learned something from it, then you CAN laugh about it... Really, it's ok to do that. NO matter what anyone else says, even though they may have a stick up their as5es, other people laugh about things that don't seem funny all the time. I always try to make light of bad situations. If I had never seen the sparks or blue and done this, which I hadn't, I COULD have killed myself or someone else next time. Now I know not to be doin' that again and be more careful. I DO NOT WEAR CHAPS!!!! EVER EVER EVER!!!! If I cut my leg off tomorrow, I still wouldn't wear them, OR a facemask. If I wore every safety device they make, I'd look like a homeowner and not be able to get sh1t done. Safety isn't just a piece of equipment, it's using your head also. In my video did you notice how often I was looking up???, like every 2 seconds. Before the tree even started to fall I, and the wife, were peddling to get the heck out of there. By the time it was in the lines we were close to 50' away. More people get cut or hurt using all that crap because they think it will protect them. Some is good, think you CAN'T GET HURT, is stupidity... The gear CAN give a false sense of security... Get my drift??? Your all a good bunch of guys on here. Hence why I keep coming back here. Now, let the beatings continue...


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## Adkpk (Oct 27, 2007)

John, first, glad cisco's luck got over to you before that tree dragged you to where you didn't want to go. 

Just want to try to simplify my question. You notch the tree while your climbing line is above you in a spar? (a spar is just the stick of the trunk) After writing that you cut your tie in point it seems your writing that you normally notch and then ascend to above the notch to release the tip. Am I just being thick headed as usual or is something missing in the wording of this.


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## Dadatwins (Oct 27, 2007)

Sounds like a case of last cut syndrome glad you are OK JPS. 
Cisco deserved all the bashing, he not only put himself in danger, but a whole lot of others as well. Overconfidence and a relaxed attitude about this type of work will get you or someone else killed. Be careful.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 27, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> After writing that you cut your tie in point it seems your writing that you normally notch and then ascend to above the notch to release the tip.



I will climb down to where I want to cut my notch, flip in below that then cut the pie out.

Leaving the TIP up allows for better ergonomics on the face cut. Especially on big wood with a big saw. Because it was a pecker pole, I did not really need to follow my SOP. I could have just done it flipped in. 

Because this was 20 ft of the pecker pole I was chatting with the crew and not dotting my eyes. I do not think I was in any danger because of other aspects of the job, but as stated above I did freak out when I realized what I had just done.

There were a number of things I could have done differently to have avoided the mishap, but if I would have just kept my mind halfway on the job....

Check your self, check your ground, check your rig, then cut.

Now as for Cisco's disregard for PPE, well he just keeps opening the door for heckling.

Yes PPE can engender a false sense of security, but it is there for when you slip up, get tired, get distracted or whatnot. If you run big saws regularly and do not where protection you are taking too much risk. If you work in a wooded area trimming or felling and do not have a helmet, you are taking too much risk.

I do not get lucky very often, because I work methodically. Some people complain that I could move faster, but that is not the point. I am more efficient then the average climber, so I work at my own speed.

If I always use a flipline when cutting, rarely onehand my climbing saw, constantly check my connections and my TIP, rig more the I let fly, discuss clearances operations with the ground, I will be less likely to have problems.

I'll step down from the soapbox, so that there will be a chance that a few people will read this.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 27, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Sounds like a case of last cut syndrome glad you are OK JPS.



Close, it was near the last cut of the first job on the last day of the week. But it was only around 10 AM.  We did 2 more removals and a large silver maple trim after that. I did sleep well last night.


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## lync (Oct 27, 2007)

*Near Mishap*

JPS had you not been destracted it probably would not have happened. Focus on the task at hand block out the rest. I also like to stay tied in to tip or crane while I cut the pie, its much more comfortable when running a biggger saw in large wood that just having the strap around the pole. I go for the climbing line choke around the spar before the back cut. As you pointed out the order in which you do things is as important as what you do. Stay safe.

Corey


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## oldirty (Oct 27, 2007)

i am doing my best to remember a situation that i have been cutting in and i cannot for the life of me recall where i would be putting a notch in a tree with a big saw and still be tied into the wood above said cut.

that doesnt really sound to safe to me, to be cutting the wood below your TIP. no big deal if the TIP is in another tree but the same one?

JP if your on spikes wouldnt it be easier to spike around the tree to best locate saw placement with the TIP and flip below the cut?


just asking a couple Q's.



oldirty


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## oldirty (Oct 27, 2007)

oh


and not for nothing cisco but your cut on that tree is why i dont get paid enough. everyone thinks they can do it themselves and that is what results.

i need to put a couple new outlets in the living room and get the lights over the stove wired in. should i do it myself? i have a screwdriver.



oldirty


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## ciscoguy01 (Oct 27, 2007)

*Yea*



oldirty said:


> oh
> 
> 
> and not for nothing cisco but your cut on that tree is why i dont get paid enough. everyone thinks they can do it themselves and that is what results.
> ...



Don't touch the black wire if you don't have shoes on dude... :biggrinbounce2:


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## oldirty (Oct 27, 2007)

thanks.

i wasnt sure. 

shoes....check.

do i need my chaps, hardhat/muffs, and glasses too?

wiat, wait. you dont use the stuff so i dont need it.

just the shoes though right? lol



oldirty


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## Adkpk (Oct 27, 2007)

oldirty said:


> i am doing my best to remember a situation that i have been cutting in and i cannot for the life of me recall where i would be putting a notch in a tree with a big saw and still be tied into the wood above said cut.
> 
> that doesnt really sound to safe to me, to be cutting the wood below your TIP. no big deal if the TIP is in another tree but the same one?



I was going to let my confusion go but I see oldirty is having a problem with this also. John, I am just a newbie and not worthy  but how can you cut something to weaken it while being tied in above it. Then need to ascend to it to remove it. I am almost sure that this isn't the case but please attempt again to clarify this. Are you tied into another tree?


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## lync (Oct 27, 2007)

Adrpk, you don't have to climb up to untie your tip just unclip one side of your climbing line and pull it down to you, then choke the spar w/climbing line, to back up your flipline.
This is an acceptable practice. If your cutting the notch out of a 20 inch pole and go 1/3 of the way thru your still tied in above on a 12 inch pole which you would have no problem tieing into in any other situation.
There are variables, is the spar decayed or hollow, are things to consider. 
Before the final cut you need to a quick check, knots slings drop zone climbing line. You have to have your head in the game every second.

Corey


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## oldirty (Oct 27, 2007)

i get having the the 12in of holding wood as a security on a 20in pole. i do. i mean look at some of the crotches/wood we tie into. the 12 will hold, i know. and i 100% understand the untieing of the TIP and pulling it back to you.

to me, its just that to leave your rope in to what your cutting can only have a bad result. IE forgetn your still tied to the work coming out of the tree.

never mind the potential to cut your rope. ( again, never try to cut without a second tie-in. i know)

no one swings a bat the same way so i shouldnt think that anyone would climb a tree the same but in both situations you have the same goals. hit the ball and work the tree.

to each their own of course. so by all means JPS dont think i am shatn on your technique, i have respect for much of what you say. 

its just that i have a fear of being torn in half out of a tree just because i forgot to pull my rope through.

and you are very correct lync in making sure all systems are go before you put that saw into the wood.


oldirty


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## Adkpk (Oct 27, 2007)

lync said:


> Adrpk, you don't have to climb up to untie your tip just unclip one side of your climbing line and pull it down to you, then choke the spar w/climbing line, to back up your flipline.
> This is an acceptable practice. If your cutting the notch out of a 20 inch pole and go 1/3 of the way thru your still tied in above on a 12 inch pole which you would have no problem tieing into in any other situation.
> There are variables, is the spar decayed or hollow, are things to consider.
> Before the final cut you need to a quick check, knots slings drop zone climbing line. You have to have your head in the game every second.
> ...



Clear, thanks lync.


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## bowtechmadman (Oct 27, 2007)

Cisco why do i get the feeling your motto is "Live hard Die young"???
I never wore PPE till I started hangin at this site...also believed that PPE would lessen my safety habits, cause me to be careless, etc etc...
Started wearing chaps and helmet w/ shield a year ago and glad I did...took a limb to the noggin that w/o the helmet I don't think I'd still be here. Dropping a dead oak and a dead branch snapped and came straight down.
Not a pro, just a geeky, safety gear wearing homeowner who enjoys heating w/ wood, and even more so enjoys being able to hug my children when I get back from doing some cutting.


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