# Checking Chain Brake? Also, new logger questions



## Canyon Angler (Apr 4, 2018)

Hey, guys,

Sorry this is so long winded but I wrote one question, and that led into more. TL/DR - Tried to break it up with CAPS --questions in red

I've been running saws for firewood for a number of years, and I try to follow all the safety rules and have been lucky not to have any accidents or scares, but I'm now moving into some fairly new territory for me – felling and logging in some woods that aren't super remote, but I'll working be alone. (Building a bandsaw mill to cut the yellow pine and oak into timber/furniture grade wood.) 

CHAIN BRAKE QUESTIONS
When I use the saw for cutting firewood, I usually engage the brake between cuts if I have to move around or pause, then disengage the brake when I want to cut. Do you guys check to make sure the brake works properly, by stopping the moving chain from time to time? If so, how often? And does this wear or degrade the brake band (or anything else) enough to worry about?

SAFETY AND RIGGING QUESTIONS
Plan to use my chainsaw chaps and a face shield/hardhat, and read up here on what to do if you get hurt, but could also use some advice on some of the technical stuff – felling, rigging with wire rope and snatch blocks, etc. (Will be using my truck and a backhoe and sometimes a home-built log arch to drag logs on sandy level ground in coastal Virginia, and since it won't be a clearcut situation, I'll need to drag logs out of the woods to where I can get a straight pull on them.)

Anyone know of any good, simple online guides to rigging snatch blocks and tree-saver straps, d-ring shackles, chains, wire rope, Amsteel, etc.?

Planning to fabricate a steel log skidding shield like this from the bottom of a 100-gallon propane bottle, to drag out logs without them tearing up stuff and getting hung up as much.

FELLING
I've felled a few smaller trees, and I've read and downloaded all sorts of guides on how it should be done, and think I have a decent understanding of how to do it, but I've also been told that I should find/hire an experienced feller to show me the ropes in person for a day before attempting it myself. Do you guys agree with this? (Will eventually be felling yellow pines to 50-60' and maybe 24" DBH or so.)

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Jeff


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## northmanlogging (Apr 4, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Hey, guys,
> 
> Sorry
> 
> ...



1 rarely check my brake as it comes on fairly often on its own from being thrown or dropped. Dont worry about it wraring out parts are cheap faces are not.

2 rigging... use 3/8 or 1/2 cable at a minimum 5/8 is better get snatch blocks rated for 3 tons or better, get 2 of em match shackels/clevises to the cable size or bigger. Invest in a couple chokers i prefer cable type some like chains... either way better then shackels and broken lines. Learn the difference between a redirect and 2 to 1 rigging. 

As for amsteel or other synthetic winch lines i won't use em fer skidding logs to many abrasives and sharp stuff is hard on rope.

That said good rogging rope is good for pulling trees over.

As to tree savers... a rated nylon strap is cheaper... or a choker on a stump is safer.

As to the falling... many books on the subject d douglas dent probably the best one out there if you can find it, other wise carry wedges use one on every tree... every tree.... make the face cuts clean... if your cuts don't match up stop and chunk it out dont chase yerself trust the aimed cut. Go slow its not a race.... LOOK UP... LOOK UP.... and keep looking up. Better to have to much hinge wood then cut it all the way off.

You get tired STOP dumb **** happens when exhausted. 

Hope that helps


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 5, 2018)

Thank you, Northmanlogging, that sounds like great advice. I'm surprised to hear a logger say to use wedges...I have them and use them but thought real loggers might not mess with them. Also glad you advised 3/8 to 5/8" cable because I was just getting ready to buy some 1/4" ...you saved me some money! All this looks like great information. Thank you again for your reply.

Jeff


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## Gologit (Apr 5, 2018)

You could take a look at this...http://faculty.forestry.ubc.ca/bendickson/FOPRLibrary/Library/Safe Work/WCB fallers_buckers.pdf

Finding somebody to teach you in person is the best way but you'll have to make sure they know what they're doing. Plan on spending more than just one day with your mentor.

The main thing is you won't be under any pressure to produce like a regular logger so take your time, think things through, and stay safe.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thank you, Northmanlogging, that sounds like great advice. I'm surprised to hear a logger say to use wedges...I have them and use them but thought real loggers might not mess with them. Also glad you advised 3/8 to 5/8" cable because I was just getting ready to buy some 1/4" ...you saved me some money! All this looks like great information. Thank you again for your reply.
> 
> Jeff



a really good faller, might not use wedges often, but they still use em. 

Unless the tree has obvious lean in the right direction, I at least palm a wedge in every tree.


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## madhatte (Apr 5, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Unless the tree has obvious lean in the right direction, I at least palm a wedge in every tree.



Exactly. Cheap insurance against wind shifts, and a good safety habit to do automatically. If nothing else, it prevents the tree sitting on your bar.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 5, 2018)

Thanks everyone. This is all good info. I'm reading that pdf now, Gologit. Not sure I've seen that one before.

How often do you experienced folks use a bore cut to help prevent a Barber Chair? For big trees, I'm thinking I'd likely use it most of the time to reduce pucker factor. Any drawbacks to this?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks everyone. This is all good info. I'm reading that pdf now, Gologit. Not sure I've seen that one before.
> 
> How often do you experienced folks use a bore cut to help prevent a Barber Chair? For big trees, I'm thinking I'd likely use it most of the time to reduce pucker factor. Any drawbacks to this?



Not never... but rarely.

A coos bay or cutting around werks better.

Bore cutting while generaly "safe" is slow and isn't a guarantee agsinst chairing.

I will bore a tree if it has severe lean, but its rare.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Apr 5, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thank you, Northmanlogging, that sounds like great advice. I'm surprised to hear a logger say to use wedges...I have them and use them but thought real loggers might not mess with them. Also glad you advised 3/8 to 5/8" cable because I was just getting ready to buy some 1/4" ...you saved me some money! All this looks like great information. Thank you again for your reply.
> 
> Jeff


Wedges serve alot more purposes then lifting a tree over the lean too, they are great for keeping the kerf open and preventing set back and pinches also make an excellent bobber to give you a heads up Etc. The wcb book posted is an excellent resource for knowledge and safe practices. 

Biggest thing I can add to the advice given, keep your chain sharp and your kit in good shape, dont be to proud to ask for help of your unsure of a situation, stay alert and don't rush, also hydrate appropriately. Nothing sucks worse then a Charlie horse from not drinking enough water.


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## RandyMac (Apr 5, 2018)

find a partner, don't work alone.
say me who did it often


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## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2018)

Most important

Have 2 escape routes when falling.

Most cutters are killed within 10' of the stump.

Run from all of them.

Bucking is as dangerous as falling, limb and scribe then buck from the top down. This also helps with oopsies and makin better lags by being able to add or subtract a little to get better paying lengths.


Oh and call the mills see what lengths they want and what they will take


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 5, 2018)

Thanks, guys. I've got a bag of wedges...really like the "rifled" wedges. Sometimes use them bucking in the woods to prevent kerf closing. I won't use a dull saw.

Face shields: Mesh or polycarbonate? I need to get one to fit my hardhat. My late father gave me some chaps ... gotta start using them.

I'll be bandsawing the logs into lumber myself, Northmanlogging -- just saw your post. I like that tip about 2 escape routes, and "always run."

I really appreciate all this help and advice. Hope y'all don't mind me posting here in the pro's sub-forum...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2018)

as for face sheilds, I personally don't use one. But mesh don't fog up, and chips stick to the poly.

on chaps, they do have a shelf life, so be careful,


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 5, 2018)

Thanks, I had a feeling the mesh would be better.

The chaps have got to be 10 years old or so by now, and I think I maybe used them once. They've been stored in a dark closet, if it's UV rays that degrade them. I'll investigate more, maybe call the mfgr. Thanks again.

Jeff


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## madhatte (Apr 5, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> How often do you experienced folks use a bore cut to help prevent a Barber Chair? For big trees, I'm thinking I'd likely use it most of the time to reduce pucker factor. Any drawbacks to this?



Second vote for a Coos. Faster, which means less time at the stump, which means safer. Major drawback to the bore is the extra time at the stump. I mean, it works, but it's not magic. Thinking that any one method is always better is dangerous. Take the time to read each tree and each situation. Build a bag of tricks and use the tricks as appropriate. Most of the time a face cut and a back cut with a parallel hinge are all you need, no trickery whatsoever.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Apr 6, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, I had a feeling the mesh would be better.
> 
> The chaps have got to be 10 years old or so by now, and I think I maybe used them once. They've been stored in a dark closet, if it's UV rays that degrade them. I'll investigate more, maybe call the mfgr. Thanks again.
> 
> Jeff



Mesh is definitely better. As to the ages it's not so much uv Ray's as it is material fatigue, chemical contamination (oils gas etc) that degrades the material at least that's the way I see it. My saw pants get replaced every 2 years or when they show signs of failure or the safety portion has been put to use. But 10 years is a long life for a set of chaps. I always err on the side of caution I'd look at replacements but definitely contact the manufacturer for thier input


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## northmanlogging (Apr 6, 2018)

On the subject of boring...

You mentioned you would be cutting pine? I think?

Pine generally grows pretty straight and isn't know to be chair prone, so face it and back cut it, no need to get real fancy. (unless it has sever lean)


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 6, 2018)

Madhatter- Thanks, I googled coos bay and cut around falling technique, and found an old thread here at arboristsite that talked about a "no face" cut ... but the pics had all disappeared. I'll dig into it more.

Northmanlogging - Thanks, that's good to know. Most of my SYP are very plumb and straight, but there are also some bad leaners (we get some STRONG winds here along the coast and had one really bad blow of 40-60 kts for 36 hours straight this winter) but I probably won't go within 50 yards of those for a while. (I've also got a big red maple maybe 24" dbh x 40 ft that mostly severed at the root crown and hung up in some other trees at about a 20-25° angle off plumb ... I need to think about how to attack that one for firewood. Thinking about wrapping a chain around the base of the tree and using a LONG cable/chain to drag it backward away from the lean with the truck...)

Really appreciate all the advice.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 6, 2018)

Get some pics of it from multiple angles.

you might be on the right track already....

Though I bet if you cut the stump mostly free it will go a lot better, without pics or an image its hard to say though.


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## madhatte (Apr 6, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Madhatter- Thanks, I googled coos bay and cut around falling technique, and found an old thread here at arboristsite that talked about a "no face" cut ... but the pics had all disappeared. I'll dig into it more.



Avoid the "no face" unless you have a specific reason for using it -- you give up all directional control by losing the hinge. Coos is entirely a backcut trick and doesn't sacrifice the hinge. The one exception, which you may have found me mentioning, is cutting small brushy stuff under tension. Often I'll coos it to prevent chairing and skip the face, so that it will tear a strip straight down into the stump. That strip substitutes for a hinge, which is an acceptable compromise in wood that it too small to put face, hinge, and back in but which is still under tension and therefore likely to split. This is mostly a "clearing roads after a storm" kind of application.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 6, 2018)

Thanks, guys. 

Northmanlogger, is the Coos Bay method the first one shown in the video (that I guess you made) at



If so, is the purpose of the side cuts so that you have less wood to cut, start to finish, on the final cut ... so that you can get the cut done before the tree has a chance to start leaning and possibly barber chair? 

I've got a fairly small saw (muffler modded MS361 that I use with a long bar and a skip chain on big trees) and I'm a rank amateur at falling, so I kinda like the idea of that strap of wood in tension keeping the tree upright until you get your hinge thickness right and then cut the "strap" with the bore cut method...and I'm not on the clock...but I can see where the boring method would slow you professionals down.

Madhatter, I guess I've already used the "no face" method on small blowdowns, now that I think about it. Your explanation helps a lot.

I'll get and post some pics of that scary hanging tree soon. Not sure I want to get near it long enough to cut it but if I can't pull it down, I might have to. I'll wait to see what you guys think from the photos, though. Thanks again.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 6, 2018)

Yup and yup

Coos either a triangle or T shape for the hold wood. I've even just nosed one side off then torched the rest off.

Ms361 is plenty of saw up to like a 28" bar.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 7, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Madhatter- Thanks, I googled coos bay and cut around falling technique, and found an old thread here at arboristsite that talked about a "no face" cut ... but the pics had all disappeared. I'll dig into it more.
> 
> 
> 
> Really appreciate all the advice.


 Yeah...Bitzer said that was a pre chainsaw technique. makes sense. Hard to use the back strap technique with axes and hand saws. Like Madhatte said stay away from it. I don't use an undercut on big old Cedar to delay the forward lean if its been heavily brushed naturally ... er....ummm...otherwise . that's not for joes. If a tree blows up on you then you messed up. Ignorance is neither an excuse or an explanation at that point. Foresight should be 20/20


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks, Westboastfaller.

I guess the biggest reason I want to use the bore cut technique, and this is probably a discussion for another thread, is because the falling technique they teach, and that you guys use, doesn't make sense to me geometrically or mathematically if the tree is perfectly straight and plumb, and if the face cut wedge you take out only goes 1/4 or 1/3 through the tree's diameter. See below:






I know this is kind of dumb, like the engineers who say that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly, because it obviously works day-in and day-out, but what drives me nuts is that it just doesn't make sense to me WHY it works. It seems like if the wood supporting the tree is to the right of the center of gravity, the tree should want to fall to the LEFT, not to the right. The kerf should want to close. Yet it apparently works, even on perfectly straight and plumb trees. Can anyone tell me why, or tell me where I'm not thinking about it right?


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2018)

To boil it down, here's diagram 3 above, simplified:





Why does this fall to the right instead of to the left?


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## Bwildered (Apr 7, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> To boil it down, here's diagram 3 above, simplified:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It can't, the only way it can is if the COG is to the right of the centreline of the hinge.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks, Bwildered. So the error in my understanding is that this will NOT work on a perfectly plumb and straight tree...?

Or does taking out the face wedge cause the tree to begin to lean a little bit?

And/or will it only work with wedges on a plumb, straight tree?

Also, maybe, I was thinking that as you make the back cut, and more and more of the weight of the tree is transferred to the hinge wood, maybe the fibers of the hinge wood begin to crush and shear to the right (since on a Humboldt face cut wedge, there's nothing below and supporting the hinge to the right) and the weight of the tree begins to bend those hinge wood fibers over toward the right and the whole mass wants to kind of "slide" down the angled slope where the wedge was removed...? Maybe?

Since I'm not doing a clear cut, in many cases, I won't have a choice which direction to fall a tree. I'll need to drop it between other trees, possibly against a slight lean.

I hope this isn't like going to an AA meeting and sharing "Why AA doesn't work for me"...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 7, 2018)

Its not exactly magic.

deeper face helps the trees balance shift ever so slightly in a positive direction, talking a few inches at the top, which could be several hundred pounds.

The other factor is if your watching a bunch of youtube vids they don't show all the factors, a lot of them are gee wizz look what I can do stuff, They have eyeballed the tree and determined it will go where they want, or just cut it in direction of lean.

What they teach and what actually works are often 2 different things, a deeper face as in not quite half the diameter gives better results across the spectrum, the old shallow face is a throw back to when the face was put in by axes, same with a standard face vs humboldt, anyone swingin an axe all day isn't going to waste any more energy then necessary, when you can switch to the hand saw and get decent results.

Anyway... as for chairing, many different causes, but main one in my opinion is stalling, be it from the face closing, or too much hold wood, or mismatched face cuts, something happens tree stalls or slows down, before the hold wood is weak, and that sends a shock through the butt, causing a chair.

The other reason is severe leaners with just too much weight going the wrong way.


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## Bwildered (Apr 7, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, Bwildered. So the error in my understanding is that this will NOT work on a perfectly plumb and straight tree...?
> 
> Or does taking out the face wedge cause the tree to begin to lean a little bit?
> 
> ...


You'll probably want to start drinking heavily soon , wedges are the sure fire way of getting the tree to fall in the direction you want, they defy gravity.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 7, 2018)

Learn to use an axe or plumb bob to determine actual lean vs perceived lean. I like an axe, pinch the handle so the head is hanging down, then sight up the handle at the tree from roughly the base area... looking up the stem, or rest the head in your palm and let the handle follow the stem, and see which way it wants to fall. (hint this works better with a straight handle)

Plumb bob is more or less the same thing, but more **** to carry and get lost.

Check it from a minimum of 2 sides, so you get a 3 dimensional idea as to how it leans. After just a few trees you will no longer be able to see a perfectly straight tree ever again...


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## hseII (Apr 7, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Check it from a minimum of 2 sides, so you get a 3 dimensional idea as to how it leans. After just a few trees you will no longer be able to see a perfectly straight tree ever again...



This.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2018)

Man, this is great info, thanks a million Northmanlogger and everyone. I had a feeling that "1/4 to 1/3 of the diameter for the face cut wedge" was an ideal rather than a rule, and your comments confirm that. And it makes sense why they would do that in the axe days. And I guess it doesn't take too many branches and limbs to shift the CoG even on a tree that appears plumb...

(I try to stay away from youtube for this kind of thing...too many butchers like me out there making videos...)

Thanks again. I'll start using that "axe plumb bob" technique.


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## bitzer (Apr 7, 2018)

It's not often that a tree is perfectly balanced. If you've ever cut a spar you know it's hard to put them on the ground with just cuts because there is nothing to help motivate them. Unless you put a really deep face in to get past the center of gravity. You can saw lean into trees, that is to say cause the tree to lean forward more by making the face deeper or nipping at the hinge when you know it should sit ahead. There's also wind at play aside from the trees lean, crown balance/weight etc. It really takes stump time to figure these things out. 

If I were you I'd start small and keep your faces super clean. Palm a wedge in each tree. Take your time. On smaller trees you can back cut first so there's room to put a wedge in etc. 

Is this a pine stand you're thinking or just pine mixed with hardwoods? First thinnings in small diameter pine are not fun to hand cut. 

Understanding the compression and tension wood and where it is in the tree is a big part in understanding and controlling the tree as well as how not to chair them.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 7, 2018)

This^^^^^^^^^^ Keep your face cuts clean ,this means do not overcut one way or the other ,an overcut is called a dutchman ,if you do a dutchman type cut it can cause the tree to turn on you and not go where its aimed ,i don't think anyone has mentioned the sights on the saw ,on your 361 there is a black line on top of the orange plastic that follows down the sides on the sprocket cover and recoil cover ,its like a sight on a gun ,when your bar is in the face cut look down the line ,that's the direction the tree will go ,you can also use the sight on bigger trees when can't see the other side to help line up your back cut to the face .on the dutchman ,if you have a leaner you can purposely put one in if want to swing the tree away from the lean ,but that's more advanced stuff ,the coos bay is a good cut for leaner's ,unless ,the center has rot then your hinge can fail ,then better is to bore it ,on your bore if cutting the release strap cut in line or below your cut ,if cut the strap above the cut when it pops it could rip the saw out of your hands . if in question about rot in the center ,bore into the tree below where you are felling it and feel the chips ,if wet are ok ,if dry and brown ,bore it .


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 7, 2018)

It will sit back "skybound " unless you are using the wind or a drop strap for back leaning trees which would be used in conjunction with a bigger forward leaning tree to break approx 6 in of vertical holding wood and 1 1/5 in deep approx. It will " barberchair" up 6" to the bore cut. You still need to bore or use wedges though to use either of those techniques to push a tree. There are tricks experience brings like falling to the east in areas when possible or allowing for hill pull or branch weight. I think you are thinking too literally when NM said good fallers hardly ever use wedges.There are no chainsaw training standards that don't use wedges. An inexperienced faller will wedge a lot more but the tree still has to come over COG in both cases. The more experienced faller perhaps is productive but doesn't mean he is a good faller ether. It's just how we metric things. Very easy to get off on the wrong track. Treat it like we all have the same motorcycle as Robbie Kenivel. Are we going to jump 22 buses? some may jump a few but Brian will just polish his on Sundays.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 7, 2018)

Westboastfaller said:


> Yeah...Bitzer said that was a pre chainsaw technique. makes sense. Hard to use the back strap technique with axes and hand saws. Like Madhatte said stay away from it. I do it on big old Cedar to delay the forward lean if its been heavily brushed naturally ... er....ummm...otherwise . that's not for joes. If a tree blows up on you then you messed up. Ignorance is neither an excuse or an explanation at that point. Foresight should be 20/20


Does bc safe let you use a coos bay cut or do you have to bore everything ?


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks, guys.

Bitzer, it's mature SYP mixed with mostly mature WO, chestnut oak, live oak, sweet gum, red maple, some hickory, a bit of black cherry, ERC, holly and a bunch of other stuff. It's a nice stand. Unfortunately, pine bark beetles are moving south toward me, so I may be working against the clock in utilizing some of this loblolly pine. I've got some big ones, as well as (I believe) some longleaf YP that I'd like to convert to construction lumber for a barn/shop. One good thing is, I've learned a lot about tension/compression wood in cutting firewood, blowdowns, hangers, etc. But that can be hard for me to read on standing timber. I guess it all just takes stump time, as you said.

Brian, Thanks, that's helpful info, especially about the rot in the middle. That is fairly common here in the tidewater area, especially in maples and even oaks. Never thought about that cutting the strap above the cut making the saw kick back at you...thanks! Safety is really my #1 concern at this point, so I will probably try to err in the direction of "safer but slower" at least in the beginning, as you suggest, Westboastfaller.

Really picking up a lot of good tips here thanks to you all ... I'm going to save this to my hard drive for future reference.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 7, 2018)

Trx250r180 said:


> Does bc safe let you use a coos bay cut or do you have to bore everything ?


They show the T-cut aswell the V-cut without nipping of the corners. it works good without cutting off the corners, as you know with the PNW hardwoods { with a good saw}. I cut the far side with the dogs in the point of The V, blind so I may cut off a corner or two . A BC faller only needs 3 good stumps out of 4 anyways plus he would be using the loophole of "overcoming a falling difficulty" as they are heavy leaners. If you had 100 leaners of say Alder to cut like in the swamps of the BC and WA valley lows then I think people could toe the line, I never found it hard to. Most of that is all property development hand falling. No Bc Faller supervisors or Certifier trainers and stumps are getting pulled behind you.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 7, 2018)

Westboastfaller said:


> They show the T-cut aswell the V-cut without nipping of the corners. it works good without cutting off the corners, as you know with the PNW hardwoods { with a good saw}. I cut the far side with the dogs in the point of The V, blind so I may cut off a corner or two . A BC faller only needs 3 good stumps out of 4 anyways plus he would be using the loophole of "overcoming a falling difficulty" as they are heavy leaners. If you had 100 leaners of say Alder to cut like in the swamps of the BC and WA valley lows then I think people could toe the line, I never found it hard to. Most of that is all property development hand falling. No Bc Faller supervisors or Certifier trainers and stumps are getting pulled behind you.



Folks is scared of alders, more or less for good reason... but if you treat em with a little respect and don't muck about on the stump, they generally behave. nip the off side, and torch em off...


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 7, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Folks is scared of alders, more or less for good reason... but if you treat in with a little respect and don't muck about on the stump, they generally behave. nip the off side, and torch em off...


 Yeah ..as long as you don't have an added wet snow load on them or more importantly..another tree leaning on it then i like to get up and personal. Like you did in the wild cherry vid. All from one side and ring out the sapwood but never adjust our dogs in the back cut pull. Never give up any of our advantages. I've had to cut like patches of 50 bent over with the lean because some prick hoe operator gets impatient and yanks out a half a dozen trees and leave them where I wouldn't have...with shaken dirt and rocks all over them. Turned out it was fun falling with the lean because its a speed thing. If you are not perfect then you have to trim out about 4ft at the butt. Very deadly without proper cuts, technique, power, speed and chain no matter who you are. I don,t take WILD cherry, Birch or 18" range Cottonwood lightly ether on the coast. Grows to quick.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 7, 2018)

****ING hate cotton weeds of all shapes and sizes...

cherry and birch are ok, a lot like alder.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Apr 7, 2018)

Man I am jealous of your guys alders. Out here alder are about the size of your thumb and grow like bamboo. Glogs up a chunk of land in a hurry and are a pain to get rid of. Bain of my existence.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 8, 2018)

You hate them because they don't pay. I hate when the water is up to my knees with that hard azz understory little whips everywhere or 12 ft blackberry if you don't have a hoe raking for you. not to mention the hairy second growth Ceder or the flat ground with trees leaning every direction. Not to forget cutting out all the breaks and turns to make multiples of 8ft and 10's out of big twisty down to little twisty schoolmarms of maple. I definitely prefer the first growth hills but its got its problems too. Now they want to pay the contractor by the acre/hectare on helli now. So if you are in some good chewing 
making Columbia and the licensee money then your boss is losing money on you. most fallers don't care. Falling contractors have worked a deal for top up which don't seem to happen. Maybe they will break the backs of the falling contractor and hire direct. apparently, in-house certs will be a reality. They can't afford the "expencive machine" the gov created. much like fire fallers, the gov had to create another cert to fill the spots and bring down the cost. We may see it go full circle back into blood over money? Just rambling ....


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 9, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, guys.
> 
> 
> 
> If so, is the purpose of the side cuts so that you have less wood to cut, start to finish, on the final cut ... so that you can get the cut done before the tree has a chance to start leaning and possibly barber chair?


 Exactly, but more importantly, the outer - younger fibres (sapwood) are the strongest and will separate vertically ("barber chair") before they will shear. Heartwood is older harder and brittle. Its much like a young person vs old. So there are lots of variables between/ and with the same species. (growing seasons, temps ect.)


Canyon Angler said:


> I had a feeling that "1/4 to 1/3 of the diameter for the face cut wedge" was an ideal rather than a rule, and your comments confirm that. And it makes sense why they would do that in the axe days.
> 
> Thanks again. I'll start using that "axe plumb bob" technique.


A 1/4 or 1/3. Different purposes. This is about safety and advantages. If you 'are able' to go too deep on a leaner then you are adding stress. Inadequate undercut on odd shape trunks can contort the tree and split also or limit hinge control. "side notching" - falling off the direct lean will move the stress to the tension side hinge. it will be heavier to wedge as the undercut deepens also. The real deep undercuts are then used for very large and short trunks. example: 10ft x 6ft leaning up the hill. 80% undercut should bring it down. the BC FALLERS book says up to 50% undercut on sort stubies but it doesn't work. So you make their 50%, 80% and file it under " overcoming a falling difficulty". Workers comp says go as deep as required on stubies. So learn the guide lines (the whys and why not and stick to them unless you have a story why you didn't.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 9, 2018)

LOL, skyborn and skybound. Not sure I fully understand what you're saying, Westboastfaller (I probably don't have enough stump time yet) but I'm piecing it together.

I've seen some of the stuff you boys pull on Ax Men, and you gotta have ice water flowing through your veins.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 9, 2018)

haxe men...

ya gatta stay cool under pressure, but its not all drama rama like the TV makes it out to be. Mostly logging is about problem solving, with a few basic principles, gravity always wins, trees fight back, get one end off the ground if you wanna move it, something will break, and THERE WILL BE MUD. The rest is applying what ever equipment is on hand in the most efficient means possible.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 9, 2018)

LOL there will be mud.

Yeah, I figured Ax Men had to be pretty fake with all the manufactured fights and feuds all the time. Just as with "Deadliest Catch," I wish they would go into the technical aspects more so you could learn a thing or two – even just basic safety stuff like "Never step into the bight of a line" – but it's just the same old same-old day-in and day-out...


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 9, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> LOL, skyborne and skybound. Not sure I fully understand what you're saying, Westboastfaller.


 I thought there was a difference but I couldn't find it anywhere. I,ll say I'm wrong about "skyborne" and edit my post. Stuff I haven't heard in many many years, Just old terminology, No biggy. Skybound is a tree that won't fall usually due to guessing the wrong lean as the definition reads and as I mentioned in 2nd post.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 10, 2018)

Heh heh, just ordered my hi-viz orange hardhat and mesh screen face shield AND...

...wait for it...

...a MS660 clone with a Meteor motor and Taiwanese crank (and some OEM parts like circlips and wrist pin bearing) on ebay! Now my 361 will have a big brother! I'm psyched!  Let 'er eat!

I've still got a few quarts of Mobil 1 2T racing oil back from when I bought a case right before they stopped making it, but I want to save that oil for my 361. What synthetic 2T oil are you guys using or would you recommend? Sorry if I'm going OT but I figured Arboritsite didn't need another oil thread.


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## madhatte (Apr 11, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> basic safety stuff like "Never step into the bight of a line".



Good on ya using the proper nautical term "bight" instead of the landlubber term "bite"!


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 11, 2018)

Never Request Credit For Something Pretty Small!


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 13, 2018)

I've been watching the BC Faller Training Standard videos on youtube. Good stuff.

Question: Is there any trick to getting your face cuts to meet perfectly? The guys on the videos seem to get them to meet right first time, every time. Or is it just stump time?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2018)

Mostly stump time.

But stick the dog in just above or bellow the gunn cut point tip towards shere ya want it then angle down or up for the face opening, up or down depending on fsce type...anchor that dog and let it walk the saw around for you. As you get close stop and look both sides better to chunk it out and have more of a block face then try and chase bad cuts with more bad cuts.

The other way is to grab the bend in the front bars and let gravity determine the angle then just try and match visually bar angle to gun cut intersection starting parallel to gun cut. 

Mostly though its just time, and being critical of your own cuts... or post on youtube and every self proclaimed tree surgeon will tell you exactly what you are doing wrong and how you will be killed doing it...


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 13, 2018)

Thanks, Northmanlogging. 

Another question: In the BC Safety videos, I noticed all the loggers were wearing some kind of heavy-duty suspenders that criss-crossed across the back. Do most loggers use that gear? And if so, is there some special purpose for them (weight-bearing, maybe -- like a military web belt)?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 14, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, Northmanlogging.
> 
> Another question: In the BC Safety videos, I noticed all the loggers were wearing some kind of heavy-duty suspenders that criss-crossed across the back. Do most loggers use that gear? And if so, is there some special purpose for them (weight-bearing, maybe -- like a military web belt)?



So yer pants don't fall down?


Belts restrict breathing, and its basically a fashion statement of hey, i'm a logger... we're mostly surrounded by environmentalist out here... so its about the only thing that sets us apart, other then dirty pants.

I think the bc guys are required to carry a bunch more gear, so it might also be to distribute the weight of some of that load, much like my wedge belt has mil spec spenders...


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 14, 2018)

I thought had to wear them so a whistle could be mounted in reach of your mouth in case of an accident.?


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 14, 2018)

"Trx250r180 said:


> I thought had to wear them so a whistle could be mounted in reach of your mouth in case of an accident.?


 Its 2018 brian, that's what nose rings are for. lol.. Maybe not the best answer True you need to be able to use it without the assistance of your hands in the event you were pinned. If I use a padded falling belt harness I will use that otherwise its always pressing into me from the belt harness or backpack overtop. Then you can have straps from rain pants AND some guys use a radio vest which straps on under the arms and across the chest. To much chit that adds to fatigue.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 14, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> So yer pants don't fall down?


With the Kevlar fallers pants, I think that holds true for me. I could MAYBE wear a 32 out of the store, They would stay up in the rain. less room in the knees though and too small after the Warsh. 36" and hot wash & dry twice before wearing with suspenders





northmanlogging said:


> Belts restrict breathing, and its basically a fashion statement of hey, I'm a logger... we're mostly surrounded by environmentalist out here... so it's about the only thing that sets us apart, other than dirty pants.


 Very traditional in parts of WA & Ak. My landlord on Prince of Wales Island was close to 80 yrs old. I would have to assume he only owned pin stripped hickory shirts and logger pants with the bottoms cut off. 
Be careful, I'm sure there are people right now in Seatle that are figuring out how to bring you all to trial and hang ya.
I love Washington state radio.
"The big lead with Dorry Munson"..lol

BC guys may have a timepiece as well a whistle at most. I've tried my tape on the right side bottom of the suspenders but every time you swing the axe it stretches and would crack me in the elbow. Not my best plan to date, mind you, not nearly my worst either. 3 1/2 lb axe head - 1 lb axe handle - 3 or 4 wedges, approx 3 1/2 lb - 1lb radio and a 1 1/2 lb tape and belt first aid (compression bandage) You are looking at 10 or 11 lb. I get worn out much less without the harness. you are lifting more weight every time you lift the saw. Harnesses are better suited for construction. IMO....even know that wasn't topic.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 14, 2018)

Thanks, fellas.

Aside from the issue of how exhausting that kind of work must be, I bet it's a lot of fun to work in the woods all day every day. I grew up hunting and fishing and love being out there, although what with all the rain you guys deal with in the PNW, maybe it ain't so peachy sometimes...THERE WILL BE MUD...

What size CC saw are most of you fallers using out there? Is there a "most common saw size"?


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## rocketnorton (Apr 14, 2018)

seen one log loads on the island, to lotta peckerpole loads, common now.
gonna guess no on "common" size.
some guys like to have as much bar as possible on light ph.
I prefer more power/speed. eg: 26" on 288. maybe 8p sprocket for shorter bars.
only loggin job I ever had was usin poulan 4200 & 24ish... late 70s.


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## rocketnorton (Apr 14, 2018)

22" hn on this one.


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## RandyMac (Apr 14, 2018)

ewww it is green, been left out too long


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## hseII (Apr 14, 2018)

RandyMac said:


> ewww it is green, been left out too long



[emoji38]

Did you ever run a Poulan or Homelite much, or was there too many McCulloch around to be touching those East Coast thangs?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 14, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, fellas.
> 
> Aside from the issue of how exhausting that kind of work must be, I bet it's a lot of fun to work in the woods all day every day. I grew up hunting and fishing and love being out there, although what with all the rain you guys deal with in the PNW, maybe it ain't so peachy sometimes...THERE WILL BE MUD...
> 
> What size CC saw are most of you fallers using out there? Is there a "most common saw size"?



70-90cc is common at least around here.

most of the hand cut timber is oversize now anyway, so 90cc saws are becoming the norm (over 36" on the stump)

Don't move here...


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## RandyMac (Apr 14, 2018)

hseII said:


> [emoji38]
> 
> Did you ever run a Poulan or Homelite much, or was there too many McCulloch around to be touching those East Coast thangs?



Lots of Homelites, big and small, only a few Poulans though, mostly at GTGs.


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## rocketnorton (Apr 15, 2018)

"experienced" guys thought poulan was heavy for power. 5200's mighta changed their minds. same saw, bigger bore.
think most of what was out there in 70ish cc then were kinda heavy. found out later 77 & 82 cc homelites were healthy.
gov issue saws. we just ran em.


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## hseII (Apr 15, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> 70-90cc is common at least around here.
> 
> most of the hand cut timber is oversize now anyway, so 90cc saws are becoming the norm (over 36" on the stump)
> 
> Don't move here...





Don’t move here.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 16, 2018)

Just got my aftermarket 660 from thechainsawguy on ebay and I gotta say it looks great! I'm guessing maybe it was largely from Farmer Tec parts, with Meteor piston and jug, Caber rings, Olean wrist pin bearing, Taiwanese crank and some OEM parts like circlips, also it has an Oregon clutch drum and sprocket and (I think) a dual-port muffler. Fired right up and she pulls good. Decomp button is plugged, but that has only given me trouble on my 361 so I don't care.

Just thought I'd let you guys know if you were considering buying from him (no connection to me)...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 16, 2018)

The uh... 064 piston and jug i got from him.... less then skookum, money wasted


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## 2dogs (Apr 16, 2018)

I bought a part from that guy. It was the wrong part so I dinged his rep. He blocked my account. Dirt bag.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 17, 2018)

Thanks for the heads-up. Here's hoping I have a better outcome! (His ebay rating...or at least the one they show on the "for sale" page...was 100%. Maybe that's just from the past year or something. There seem to be a few different people going by the handle "thechainsawguy" on ebay and youtube...I think one of the youtube guys who goes by that name retired last year...it's hard to piece together. The guy I bought from is in Black Creek, BC.)

I was thinking of having my local saw guy look over the 660 and maybe do a vacuum and pressure test just so I don't blow the thing up straight out of the gate ... would you guys do this if you were me? I'm not sure I would recognize an air leak from the saw's behavior.

Also, should I re-torque the jug-to-crankcase bolts after 5 or 10 tanks? (That I can do myself.) I thought I saw something about that in one of the manuals...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 17, 2018)

Never needed to retorque cylinder bolts...

Personally, a used 066/660 probably would have cost the same and run longer.


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## rocketnorton (Apr 17, 2018)

wont hold tune, if there's much of a leak. test will show small one.
roll it side to side, see if idle changes.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 17, 2018)

Thanks, guys.



northmanlogging said:


> Never needed to retorque cylinder bolts...



Just so I understand, you mean you checked them and they were still at proper torque, or you never checked them? (I found in the owner's manual where they say to retorque after 10-20 hrs.) From what I've read it sounds like maybe the base gasket can shrink in thickness after break-in/cook-in enough to change how far the bolts are stretched/strained, but after you retorque them, supposedly they're good thereafter...?

Just trying to do it by the book here. Don't want to give the saw any excuse to fail.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 17, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> maybe the base gasket can shrink in thickness after break-in/cook-in enough to change how far the bolts are stretched/strained, but after you retorque them, supposedly they're good thereafter...?



This was bugging me WHY? but here's one possible explanation. When the engine heats up, the aluminum cylinder and the aluminum crankcase expand, and the steel screws joining them expand, but not as much. In fact, only about half as much. (Coefficient of linear thermal expansion for aluminum is double that of steel.) What that means is that when the engine heats up, and the aluminum pieces expand about twice as much as the screws holding them together, the gap between the aluminum cylinder and the aluminum crankcase is decreased...which effectively "crushes" the gasket every time the engine heats up.

Eventually, I imagine the gasket doesn't "spring back" (expand fully to its original thickness) on cool-down, which means that the screws won't be as elastically stretched as they were when they were installed. Which means their torque values will decrease, even though they didn't loosen in the sense of rotating counterclockwise. But after enough heat-up/cool-down cycles, the gasket stops getting thinner (it probably gets harder and thinner, but after a point it won't get any thinner), and so when you re-torque after 10-20 hours of run time, you probably don't need to re-torque ever again.

Anyway, that's my theory on what happens and why Stihl says to do it...


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 17, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks for the heads-up. Here's hoping I have a better outcome! (His ebay rating...or at least the one they show on the "for sale" page...was 100%. Maybe that's just from the past year or something. There seem to be a few different people going by the handle "thechainsawguy" on ebay and youtube...I think one of the youtube guys who goes by that name retired last year...it's hard to piece together. The guy I bought from is in Black Creek, BC.)
> 
> I was thinking of having my local saw guy look over the 660 and maybe do a vacuum and pressure test just so I don't blow the thing up straight out of the gate ... would you guys do this if you were me? I'm not sure I would recognize an air leak from the saw's behaviour.
> 
> Also, should I re-torque the jug-to-crankcase bolts after 5 or 10 tanks? (That I can do myself.) I thought I saw something about that in one of the manuals...


 I always re-check everything. It doesn't, mean they will need it but its worth the min it takes. muffler bolts too. Thechainsawguy, DAVE, is active on this site, mainly in the sales thread. You can read his posts and threads. He has a long-standing rep. and many happy customers. first time i ever heard anything negative. As for the Chinese parts..... its hit and miss. lots of big suppliers deal in them too.


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## hseII (Apr 17, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> The uh... 064 piston and jug i got from him.... less then skookum, money wasted



What’s “skookum”?


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## madhatte (Apr 17, 2018)

"Skookum" is old-school PNW slang meaning "Good, done right, dependable, the stuff you want".


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some I've checked, others run em till they die, rebuild+repeat.

Only had one saw where the cylinder gasket was the culprit for it dying, and I inherited it that way, one bolt was out and wedged into a cooling fin... 

Far as proper torque? go until the wrench flexes... hasn't failed me yet. (note this only works on Allen type wrenches and T handle Torqs wrenches, if you can flex a 7/8 box end wrench without breaking a bolt...)

Yer also sorta half right with the heating cooling aspect, but its mostly a matter of the bolt getting its stretches in, the gaskets are metal, and not likely to move much, but the bolts have multiple planes on which they can move, both from vibration and heat stresses.

To be clear, I've never personally blown up a saw (I mostly run em over), I've loaned em out and had them get roached (hot saws and dull chains are a bad combo), and I get a bunch of dead saws and make them go again from time to time... I get bored, and antsy, cheaper then a drug addiction and legal too.

If yer saw is suckin air where its not supposed to it will be a ***** to tune, and continually get worse until it leans out far enough and burns up. A competent shop with a vacuum tester can check em in about 10 minutes, a used saw will generally have one or the other crank seals go bad, also an easy fix with the right tools...

A new saw if its leaking could be anywhere, and likely expensive.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2018)

madhatte said:


> "Skookum" is old-school PNW slang meaning "Good, done right, dependable, the stuff you want".


^^ yup

Skookum as frig yo


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 18, 2018)

Skookum was a company that made overbuilt strong logging equipment ,seen the name on big blocks and i think choker bells


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 18, 2018)

Thanks, Westboastfaller and Northmanlogging. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this stuff.



Trx250r180 said:


> Skookum was a company that made overbuilt strong logging equipment ,seen the name on big blocks and i think choker bells



Yes, I think they're still around, I've seen their ads for marine towing and rigging equipment in marine industry trade pubs...Skookums was a pet name I had for a longtime girlfriend, so the name stood out to me when I saw the ads. Always wondered which came first -- the company name or the expression "skookum."

One thing I didn't see much about in the BC Safety videos was kickback. I would have expected them to spend more time on it than they did. You guys who are falling in the woods every day -- do you get many saw kickbacks? And what do you do to minimize the danger?

The things I've heard are, watch the "danger zone" on the bar, keep the saw sharp (duh), try not to cut at less than WOT (hard to avoid if you don't like to over-rev the saw and eat fuel), keep your left elbow locked, and try not to stand directly behind the saw bar. Any other tips you can offer?

In high school, a friend of mine had a saw kick back and it almost took out his eye. I can still see in my memory, over 40 years later, those individual tooth marks with stitches, including in his EYELID, and it scares the **** out of me...

Thanks again.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 18, 2018)

Longer bars help prevent kickback's, mostly happens if start the cut with the top of the tip of the bar ,chain catches and pops the bar up as it rolls around ,if do a bore use the bottom of the tip to start the cut


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2018)

Skookum, is mostly from Chinook jargon, sort of a native Esperanto that would allow the round eyes talk to the locals... Skookum rigging stuff was I think were originally made in Seattle but that is mostly a guess.

As for kick back, keep your thump wrapped around the handle bars, avoid use of the top front quarter of the tip, other wise yeah thats about it... kick backs happen, but if you pay attention and keep yourself out of the way its not so bad, Think I can count on one hand the kick backs I've had that set the brake off, mostly just minor little jumps. More common is the undercut type kick back, where your are under bucking a log, logs break free, and grab the top of the chain just enough to throw the saw into yer sensitive bits, or slam into your thigh, not all that dangerous per say, but painful and annoying.

WOT is good when in a cut, more air, more fuel, more cooling, as long as its cutting it will slow down enough to not detonate.

WOT all day just for the noise of it not so much.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 18, 2018)

Here is a kickback demo Buckin Billy did ,shows the tip of the bar placement and the saw kicking back .


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 19, 2018)

Thanks Northman and TRX, I appreciate your help.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 20, 2018)

Since it sounds like kickback isn't the primary thing to watch out for, I'm curious how most loggers and fallers (especially new guys) get hurt in the woods.

What would be the main things I should watch out for as a new guy? Falling branches/dead tops? Trees falling the wrong way? 

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse with this thread...I googled "logging accident statistics" and found this:







and it looks like being "struck by" something is the biggest risk...so the hardhat and "eyes in the sky" would seem to be some of the most important things for a logger / faller, would you guys agree?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 20, 2018)

Trees throwin **** at ya... they fight back and play dirty

Followed by skidding or yarding accidents. Never get under any cables and stay out of the bight if possible. If using a tractor keep the load low and slow.

Couple years ago we lost a couple crews just from driving too or from the site, steep windey dirt roads usually at night usually at insane speeds... in all sorts of shittier weather.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 20, 2018)

Thank you, Northmanlogging.

Was out with the new 660 today but forgot camera to get a good shot of that tree that's hung up in another tree. I'm kinda hoping it'll fall down on its own (and when I was looking at it today, debating on whether to wrap a chain around the base and try to yank it back away from the hang and down, I could hear wood fibers cracking/breaking!) One issue is, it's kind of near a road, and could conceivably come out almost into the road if my shade-tree geometry is right...


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## Bwildered (Apr 20, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thank you, Northmanlogging.
> 
> Was out with the new 660 today but forgot camera to get a good shot of that tree that's hung up in another tree. I'm kinda hoping it'll fall down on its own (and when I was looking at it today, debating on whether to wrap a chain around the base and try to yank it back away from the hang and down, I could hear wood fibers cracking/breaking!) One issue is, it's kind of near a road, and could conceivably come out almost into the road if my shade-tree geometry is right...


The golden rule is to never leave hung up trees, they are potential death traps even to just get them down safely.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 20, 2018)

Bwildered said:


> The golden rule is to never leave hung up trees, they are potential death traps even to just get them down safely.



Yeah, that makes sense, but it wasn't an aborted fall...it was a natural blowdown, and on private property, and I don't feel quite confident enough to go poking sticks into this particular death trap yet...


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Since it sounds like kickback isn't the primary thing to watch out for, I'm curious how most loggers and fallers (especially new guys) get hurt in the woods.
> 
> What would be the main things I should watch out for as a new guy? Falling branches/dead tops? Trees falling the wrong way?



Most of the fatal falling accidents I've seen in the woods were from things dropping down from above.
A lot of people new to falling don't take the time to really size up a tree before they start sawing. Watching out for dead tops and limbs is important but you also want to look at the trees close to the one you're falling.
As your tree starts to fall it can brush other trees, bending their limbs under tremendous pressure. When they pop back they'll sometimes break off and come flying at you. It happens fast.
I've lost two falling partners to falling limbs. In neither case was the limb from the tree they were falling. One brushed a tree on the way down and a limb from an adjacent tree snapped back, fell, and hit him. The other was a broken top that was limb locked with the tree he was falling. In both cases they died before we could pack them out.
If you're pounding wedges look up frequently. If you're really beating the snot out of the wedges they can send a tremendous amount of vibration up the tree. A neighbor of mine was killed when the top broke out of a tree he was pounding on.
Bucking can be dangerous too. A friend of mine was walking a doug fir log, limbing as he went, and from what we could tell afterwards he fell and took a jagged madrone limb through the carotid artery.
A guy I went to school with was crushed to death when a log he was bucking sprang back at him and pinned him against another log. His brother was killed when a log broke loose above him and rolled over him. Their father was killed years before that when a Cat knocked a rock loose above him, the rock hit a log, and the log spun around and clipped him with the butt.
There's lots more. Too many more, really. But you get the idea.
You've done well to ask the questions you've asked. But when you're out there playing logger just remember that the trees don't play.
If you've cut quite awhile and you haven't scared the crap out of yourself a couple of times from close calls you're either too stupid to recognize danger or you just weren't paying enough attention. If you find this to be true, take up another hobby. Stamp collecting, watercolors, something like that.
Good luck to you.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 20, 2018)

I've been incredibly lucky, and I know it, but here's a list of **** that should have killed me but didn't.

tops breaking out and coming back to the stump. More then I can remember, been hit by several, but luckily just the ends or branches, had to replace one hard hat... (hammered the dents out of the other...)

snags... ****ing snags... theres pics of the results of one of them in Descriptive process thread, they break and are completely unpredictable.

bucking on a ridge, it slabbed off and drug me uphill for 20', running saw between me and tree, working alone.

several barber chairs, some with no warning signs, all of them close calls.

tops working up over the skidder tires and trying to drive for me, hitting me in the teeth, or damned near crushing my foot against the pto cover.

falling limbs, more falling limbs... and falling limbs, one got me hard enough to see funny colors and forget how to walk...fer like an hour... ****ed my memory up for several months too (though that could have been the folks I was working with being complete assholes?)

doing wheelies with the tractor, a tractor notably with no cage... while trying to skid logs.

trees doing random weird **** like moving sideways when the shouldn't be going anywhere, and taking me with em.

Rolling logs, in the I'm on top 8' in the air and it decides to roll over a couple times.

Had an axe bounce off some hard set wedges... got me in the bicep... no stitches (cause I'm cheap) though it could have probably used 4 or 5... gots a real sexy scar from that one.

Fell once while climbing... my own fault, in not checking my gear to see if it was set correctly... I was using a back up on that one, and it stopped me about 6' from dirt.

There are more, some caused by my "help" some from me, some just trees fighting back...


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 20, 2018)

Holy crap, you guys are scaring the bejesus outta me!

Fortunately, it's pretty flat around here, so not as much chance of the logs rolling downhill (I know they can still roll) but ... jeez.

One thing that kinda sucks is that we see a fair amount of rotted out heartwood in the hardwoods and weird rot and fungal growth way up high...you see a lot of blown-down living limbs after bad windstorms, particularly in red oaks with bad/steep crotch angles. Was working around a big blown-down red maple today and noticed some fair-sized limbs broken and hanging from fibers on adjacent trees...I guess you've got to spend a lot of time looking up. I can see a small pair of binoculars being real handy when cutting.

Thanks very much for the replies and advice.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 21, 2018)

Wood is heavier than it looks ,


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 21, 2018)

Yeah, especially when it's moving at 32 ft/sec²


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## Skeans (Apr 21, 2018)

There’s nothing like the feeling of getting hit by a widow maker, even when doing everything right getting up off the stump etc. a few years back I got drilled real good by a fir limb that did exactly what Bob said on its return broke free hit my hard hat as well as my shoulder which saved my butt, the only damage was a broken tooth, bit the tip of my tongue off, and a concussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 21, 2018)

For you fallers who carry a small axe on your back for driving wedges -- how long of a handle and how heavy of a head do you prefer?

I've got a full-size axe with 31" fiberglass handle, and a short "camp axe" I think they call it (longer than a hatchet but shorter than an axe) but nothing I can carry comfortably on my back, handle-up, within easy reach for quickly driving wedges when falling. I need another hatchet/axe like I need a hole in the head, but I can see where you might want something handy in a hurry when falling...was considering one of these, which is 26" overall and gets great reviews for a $24 tool:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CZ9UY4/

Alternately, is there a (safe) way to carry my ~18" "camp axe" on a web belt, maybe? Because it works well for driving wedges, but is a pain to carry around with everything else.


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## RandyMac (Apr 21, 2018)

never cared much for havin' a bunch of stuff strapped to me, impeded flight.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 21, 2018)

3.5# and 28" handle

Just make sure it has a flat poll (the bit what hits the wedges)

if you just have a belt slipping the handle into it about mid back works for awhile.

otherwise consider a grizzly industries aluminium scabbard... they come in a bunch of sizes, but will hold the handle straight up against yer spine, and is mostly out of the way there.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 21, 2018)

Council tool makes a great axe, 5# rafting pattern even comes with a 28" handle... around $50 if I remember, might even get one at 4#... the 5 pounder is a wedge killing machine.


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## InfiniteJest (Apr 21, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> For you fallers who carry a small axe on your back for driving wedges -- how long of a handle and how heavy of a head do you prefer?
> 
> I've got a full-size axe with 31" fiberglass handle, and a short "camp axe" I think they call it (longer than a hatchet but shorter than an axe) but nothing I can carry comfortably on my back, handle-up, within easy reach for quickly driving wedges when falling. I need another hatchet/axe like I need a hole in the head, but I can see where you might want something handy in a hurry when falling...was considering one of these, which is 26" overall and gets great reviews for a $24 tool:
> 
> ...



Timber fallers 10th commandment,
" Though shalt not pack an axe"
Throw the damn thing to the uphill side of the next cut tree.

And avoid using it like the plague. Swing that ****.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 22, 2018)

Thanks, guys. Looks like Council may not make the "rafting" pattern axe (or not use that name in marketing it) anymore, but they do sell a 3.5# jobbie with a 26" straight handle ... I think you said you wanted a straight, rather than deer-foot, handle to use as a plumb-bob, Northman ... I may get that. (I'm not a big dude, so 5# may be more than I want ... heck, after the 361, this 660 feels like I'm carrying around a car engine!)


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## northmanlogging (Apr 22, 2018)

its a single bit with a flat poll.. May call it something else now?

I'm a huge dude, and i don't like dragging the 5# all day, it pretty much just hides under the seats of the crummy and comes out once a year for really big trees.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 22, 2018)

Here's the one I'm considering, it's 3.5# with 26" straight handle for about $40-$42:







Was also considering their 2.25# "boy's axe" but they don't offer it with a straight handle.


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## rocketnorton (Apr 22, 2018)

"deerfoot" can show plumb. have edge toward you or tree.


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## Skeans (Apr 22, 2018)

Myself I don’t use an axe as plum bob when I do use one I have a fishing line on a quarter. My personal axes very from 3lbs to almost 10lbs with handles varying from cut down to a 20 to a 30 or 36 from memory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 23, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Since it sounds like kickback isn't the primary thing to watch out for, I'm curious how most loggers and fallers (especially new guys) get hurt in the woods.
> 
> What would be the main things I should watch out for as a new guy? Falling branches/dead tops? Trees falling the wrong way?
> 
> ...


 The training to know what you are looking up or around for (All aspects of training) falling, is a number of steps that back up another. A faller may have to skip one to overcome a falling difficulty at times, looking up or around is never something to be skipped. Missing steps or going out of order (often the same thing) will kill a very experienced production faller 99% of the time. Any time I have had a near miss, it involved missing two or three steps every time. 1% get killed by a rolling rock or something coming down from trees unrelated to active falling disturbance. then you have slides. I knew two fallers that were killed in that 1%. You control your environment.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 23, 2018)

Westboastfaller said:


> The training to know what you are looking up or around for (All aspects of training) falling, is a number of steps that back up another. A faller may have to skip one to overcome a falling difficulty at times, looking up or around is never something to be skipped. Missing steps or going out of order (often the same thing) will kill a very experienced production faller 99% of the time. Any time I have had a near miss, it involved missing two or three steps every time. 1% get killed by a rolling rock or something coming down from trees unrelated to active falling disturbance. then you have slides. I knew two fallers that were killed in that 1%. You control your environment.



Thanks, Westboastfaller. Sounds like what they teach m/c riders – SIPDE: Scan, Identify, Predict, Decide, Execute. I'd be interested in reading about that sequence of steps....

Man, yesterday I was watching the YouTubes and saw a vid where some guys were falling big redwoods in absolutely gorgeous country that looked like it was out of a Bob Ross painting. Good Lord, those trees SPLODED when they hit the ground! I imagine you could have stuff falling down for quite a whle when you take one of those monsters down...


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 23, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, Westboastfaller. Sounds like what they teach m/c riders – SIPDE: Scan, Identify, Predict, Decide, Execute. I'd be interested in reading about that sequence of steps....
> 
> Man, yesterday I was watching the YouTubes and saw a vid where some guys were falling big redwoods in absolutely gorgeous country that looked like it was out of a Bob Ross painting. Good Lord, those trees SPLODED when they hit the ground! I imagine you could have stuff falling down for quite a whle when you take one of those monsters down...


 Yeah, you want to get used to doing site overviews as you enter the forest. looking for common patterns. Example: Old burn area? bug kill in area? heart rot fungus? sap rot fungus? wet lands? what species is clearly affected and by what? what is happening to then? Try to figure out the puzzle before you start. The steps are basically listed in the BCFTS apart from a few others that are needed for WCF. I will go into it more when I have more time, as well address 'helpers' for learning undercuts. That is a falling axe above.


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## rwoods (Apr 23, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Here's the one I'm considering, it's 3.5# with 26" straight handle for about $40-$42:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...xe-4-lbs-with-28-Hickory-Handle-WPX-F4028.axd

Ron


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks, Westboastfaller, I'm learning a lot from all of you guys. FWIW, found some good falling videos on Youtube put out by Husqvarna...the guy really goes into detail on the basics, explaining things that aren't always obvious to n00b idiots like me. Interestingly, he seems to recommend an open face of ≥ 70° and bore cuts for the back cut most of the time, I guess for more control, especially among Happy Homeowners using small, presumably dull saws.

Thanks, Ron, too -- that's a better deal than the amazon one, though I wish it was a little lighter. I may just try to make do with what I have right now: A 3.5# axe with 31" fiberglass handle, or a 2.3# "camp axe" which is what I've used in the past to drive wedges...with the right cover over the cutting edge, I could carry that on my belt like a framing hammer and have access to it for driving wedges in a hurry...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 23, 2018)

to be fair I've never carried mine with the blade covered until I got one of the grizzly scabbards...

though, I would advice against doing a lot of the things I do... or don't do (chaps eye protection)


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## hseII (Apr 23, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> to be fair I've never carried mine with the blade covered until I got one of the grizzly scabbards...
> 
> though, I would advice against doing a lot of the things I do... or don't do (chaps eye protection)



Those Grizzly Scabbards are too nice & too cheap to not use if you’re gonna be toting an axe in the woods.

My $.02.


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## RandyMac (Apr 23, 2018)

If the Redwoods exploded, they were doing it wrong.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 23, 2018)

hseII said:


> Those Grizzly Scabbards are too nice & too cheap to not use if you’re gonna be toting an axe in the woods.



You mean like these?
https://grizzlypeakenterprises.com/t/axe-scabbards
I could tig together one of them right fast...


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## hseII (Apr 23, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> You mean like these?
> https://grizzlypeakenterprises.com/t/axe-scabbards
> I could tig together one of them right fast...



I could too, but I can buy them
Cheaper than I can take time & build them.

And especially after buying a couple wedge holders.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 23, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> You mean like these?
> https://grizzlypeakenterprises.com/t/axe-scabbards
> I could tig together one of them right fast...


Yes sir.

They are pretty tough, riveted no welding, all bends so i think thet may be 7075?

Either way tis a damned good product and worth sticker price


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## rwoods (Apr 23, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> …
> 
> Thanks, Ron, too -- that's a better deal than the amazon one, though I wish it was a little lighter. I may just try to make do with what I have right now: A 3.5# axe with 31" fiberglass handle, or a 2.3# "camp axe" which is what I've used in the past to drive wedges...with the right cover over the cutting edge, I could carry that on my belt like a framing hammer and have access to it for driving wedges in a hurry...



I’m not a logger just a firewood hack so pay little attention to me except - the axe I posted has a head designed to drive wedges. Another one of those nice things common toWest Coast guys and not so much so in the East. I gave an old 5# Plumb rafting axe head to an Eastern logger a few years back. Let’s just say he was very impressed. 1/2# to 1 1/2# more than a 3.5# axe is not going to kill you to carry when you need to pound wedges. And it will sure drive some wedges.

Ron


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 24, 2018)

Thanks, guys.

Northman, not sure the alloy -- alum alloys and tempering/aging and bendability is a whole 'nother ball of wax I haven't waded into yet...I'd prolly just weld it together from 5052 with 4043 filler since that's what I have hanging around...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 24, 2018)

the grizzly versions are all bent up, and 7075 is pretty fricken tough to bend?

but 2024-0 bends like butter, then it just needs tempered to be more or less tough...

Anyway, leave a hole on the bottom for dirt to fall out of. only about half of the bottom is covered the rest is open.


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## madhatte (Apr 24, 2018)

I have one of those but the rattling noise drives me crazy. Mostly it sits in the day pack for my linegear which is where wedges and stuff live, and protects the bag from the axe, which it does very well.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Apr 25, 2018)

I picked one of those up ( grizzly axe holster) last year handy as heck, just make sure you measure you axe head and get one size larger then the heads actual measurement. The build quality is great on them.


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## hseII (Apr 25, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I have one of those but the rattling noise drives me crazy. Mostly it sits in the day pack for my linegear which is where wedges and stuff live, and protects the bag from the axe, which it does very well.



I sometimes sing spirituals to the beat of the rattles.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 25, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I have one of those but the rattling noise drives me crazy. Mostly it sits in the day pack for my linegear which is where wedges and stuff live, and protects the bag from the axe, which it does very well.



ear plugs, followed by a constantly running muff modded saw, the rattle will only be a distant memory.

that and if your hiking in somewheres, kick the power head over a wee bit so it supports the axe handle, keeps it from rattling around so much, can be hard on the neck though.


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## Gologit (Apr 25, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I have one of those but the rattling noise drives me crazy. Mostly it sits in the day pack for my linegear which is where wedges and stuff live, and protects the bag from the axe, which it does very well.



I tried one but I agree on the rattling noise. Plus, I like a longer handle and I'm the exact wrong height to have the handle fit comfortably where it should.
I'd usually just stuff the ax through my belt if I had to carry it any distance. Otherwise I'd just toss it ahead of me to the next tree. Keeps things simple that way.


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## rwoods (Apr 25, 2018)

For some reason at almost any job I, at sometime or the other, find myself falling on my tail with some force. Seeing you guys carrying an axe stuck to your back gives me the willies. Of course I don’t have a better suggestion. 

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Apr 25, 2018)

rwoods said:


> For some reason at almost any job I, at sometime or the other, find myself falling on my tail with some force. Seeing you guys carrying an axe stuck to your back gives me the willies. Of course I don’t have a better suggestion.
> 
> Ron



well it sits flat, and protects yer tail bone to some extent... so win win?

also, I really need a cage on my essavator, this one was leaning over the property line, not enough to tie too, and "high" value targets under it.


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## rwoods (Apr 25, 2018)

NM, when I saw how easily you straighten that cab, I said to myself that I hope you heed the advice you were offered early on about guards. Hopefully the funds and the fix will come before another test. Ron


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## northmanlogging (Apr 25, 2018)

to be fair, i did nearly roll the skidder just to straighten that little ding.

but yeah, a week off and several hundred in steel and welding rod would make me feel a little better about stoopid **** like this.


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## rwoods (Apr 25, 2018)

Cats they say have nine lives. Not sure how many we have. I used up one last night in a crawl space when I drilled into a live 230 volt cable. Something tells me that you have used up a few too. 

Ron


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## GilksTreeFelling (Apr 25, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> to be fair, i did nearly roll the skidder just to straighten that little ding.
> 
> but yeah, a week off and several hundred in steel and welding rod would make me feel a little better about stoopid **** like this.



If ya weren't o. The other side of the world I'd offer ya to stop by and pilfer my steel racks. Pretty sure I got a couple 25ft lengths of 2x2 square tube on the racks in the back.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 25, 2018)

oh I've burned a few on dumber ****...

and my family has a habit of dying of... less then natural causes...

Violent death does not scare me, failure does.

these are not words of wisdom, and I strongly encourage others to not do as I do, but job needs done, someone has to do it... so take all the precautions you can, check for Valkyrie , and go.


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## flying pig (May 1, 2018)

Northman, pretty sure the canopy from pretty well any Deere or Hitachi with that style cab would work. Those hoes are getting old enough there are a pile of them around being salvaged now. Should be able to get a factory made canopy pretty cheap I’d think. You may have to build mounts, most of ours up here mount onto pads on the catwalks. Looks like your machine doesn’t have catwalks though.


Canyon Angler, sounds like you and I have a similar experience level. I’m just starting out logging as well, and going on my own too. I do have a partner I work with every weekend and we are both critical of each others’ work as much as we can be. My dad also watches over us, he fell for 11 years up here in the same species we are logging and on similar ground as we are and will be. 

I had run quite a bit of saw growing up on a farm and from a pretty young age (13 was when I first ran a saw). So that has helped. I’ve only been logging a few days a month, alternating between falling, skidding, and sawing lumber depending on where we are at in our operation, but I feel I’m learning a lot from hands on and from things the guys in here are saying and the information that is on the web from worksafe and other sources. I’ve been trying hard to keep these things in the back of my head as well as trying to identify what works for me hands on as well. I had a hell of a time figuring out how to lay my poplar trees down at first. Seemed like they wouldn’t go any one way. Then a couple weekends ago I took the time to go for a walk and look up lots, take notice of how things were set up. Trees will grow towards the light. Most of the trees in my stand are either leaning south east or topped heavy to the south east. The exception seems to be along the creek running through the property, and the last 50 yards on the edges of the willows lining the creek seem to want to lay that way, which for us is against the wind too. Anyway, what Westboastfaller said a few pages ago made that click for me. 

I was really tense the first couple of days. After I learned to relax and slow down a bit, and concentrate on a system that worked for me things started getting better and my trees started landing where I wanted them more. Cover your bases, take your time. If it’s your show no one cares how fast your trees get into the landing. A green hand is dangerous in any profession, a green hand without guidance is really at risk, so watch your own bacon. Stop yourself if you feel something is out of your comfort zone. You can leave it and come back to that particular situation later. When things don’t go right take the time to figure out why and don’t make that mistake again. I’ve cut my hinge off a few times and trust me it goes sideways in a split second, usually because I’m watching my top and not alternating between watching the top and how far I am through the back cut. I’m learning to slow down a little there. Last thing I’ve been trying to do is focus on the basics and don’t try to get fancy. That really seems to help me at this point.

Fire away if any of this is out to lunch guys, I’m all ears.


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## Canyon Angler (May 1, 2018)

Thanks for your reply Flying Pig. Your comment:

"Then a couple weekends ago I took the time to go for a walk and look up lots, take notice of how things were set up. Trees will grow towards the light."

reminds me of something I noticed while deer hunting several years ago. Around here, it seems like the bark on the trees all twists -- and it all twists the same direction. Then I thought about why. If the leaves follow the sun from E to S to W, and the twigs follow the leaves (as they must), and the branches follow the twigs, and the bark follows the branches, it will all twist counterclockwise as you look up the tree (at least in the northern hemisphere)...

Anyway, not to go OT, I appreciate your advice. I agree on listening to your gut...my Dad used to always tell me that. "If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right, even if you can't identify why..." Also, if unsure of something, walk away and circle back around later or on another day. Often your subconscious will work on a problem while you sleep and suddenly the answer will appear to you and seem obvious when you were mystified before...

Thanks,

Jeff


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## flying pig (May 1, 2018)

I agree 100%. I used to ride freestyle motocross and we used to live by that. If you weren’t feeling it and ride anyways it seemed like that was always when you’d end up in the hospital or on the ground at least.


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## madhatte (May 1, 2018)

I'm a big believer in the old "stop-and-drink-a-beer-or-smoke-a-cigarette-or-whatever-it-is-that-you-do" school of interventional troubleshooting. Giving yourself a little distance from a problem buys invaluable clarity. Being in a hurry does the exact opposite.


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## Canyon Angler (May 8, 2018)

Been cutting blown-down red maples and trying to drag them out of the woods, using 250' of 3/8" wire rope and chain chokers. Holy cow, what a nightmare that is! Set everything up with the wire rope going thru the snatch block attached to a tree with a strap, out to the truck on the road, put the choker on the log(s), walk out to truck, pull until it stops, walk back, use peavey to get log unfouled from standing tree or bush, walk back to truck, pull until it stops again, walk back, unfoul, re-choker, walk back to truck, pull until it stops again, lather rinse repeat forever. Meanwhile the flogging greenbrier (cat brier my dad used to call it, and it's like cat's claws) is like 5' high and it's like trying to walk through about 30 miles of unspooled concertina wire. NIGHTMARE! It fouls your legs, rips your clothes, and tries to trip you with every step you take, but you just slog through until it starts to feel like you have 50# of logging chain on each boot that you're continually trying to drag... I think omma buy about 55 gallon of brush killer for that miserable ****...

Does anybody have any secrets or tips or tricks for snaking these logs out through the woods without getting hung up every 10 feet? Also would like to hear any tips for ganging the logs up somehow, so you can drag more than 1 log (or 1 "bunch" of logs) with each pull...I was thinking about trying to rig a "log train" maybe by putting half-hitches of chain around logs in the middle (between the truck and the terminal drag)... any suggestions or tips would be really appreciated.

Right now, I'm just doing it for firewood but I never did this much work for a freakin cord or two of wood in my life! On the plus side, this AM 660 is running like a raped ape! Tons of compression, it just about rips my fingers off when I try to start it...


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## flying pig (May 8, 2018)

We would always cut them into about 4ft pieces according to how much they weighed and carry them out. Buddy and I did 25 cords like that one fall. Sounds like you need a couple percherons.


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## northmanlogging (May 9, 2018)

Get some lift.

Hang that block of yours high in a stout tree, 20' would be a good starting point (though realistically 10' works). Then try to keep the pulls short. Might be a good idea to put at least one guy line on that tree...

Getting the end up, will help prevent the logs from getting hung up on stuff.

Also plan as straight a pull as you can, snaking around standing trees, stumps etc is just inviting a mess.

As for hooking more then one at a time, you can get choker sliders (bailey's has em) these slip along the winch/pull line allowing you to pick a few logs in sequence. You can stick as many sliders on the skid line as you like, but realistically 2 or 3 is all your going to wan't to mess with. More power and more lift then it don't really matter how many chokers you have, you just have to have the patience to untie em all. You can also put an eye on the end of the skid line, and shackle 2 or 3 chokers together that way, though its not as nice as having sliders it does work. 

You can also bonus logs, which is simply wrapping one choker around 2 or 3 logs (4 is doable, but doesn't always work) the trick there is getting them to line up in such a way that you can get a choker around multiples, as you don't wan't to be hooking the middle of any log ever, choker should be a foot or so from the end, unless you can't find a hole, then farther back is ok. 

Last, start close and work your way out, unless there is a hill, then skid top down, preferably skidding up hill.


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## northmanlogging (May 9, 2018)

This goes for the bucking discussion earlier... as a bonus I think I finally got the d'oh64 running good. (wiring funkyness)


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## Canyon Angler (May 9, 2018)

Thanks, Northmanlogging. I appreciate the advice. I'll see if I can find a way to get the snatch block up higher

Sometimes, just to make things easier, I've been cutting down the little saplings that get in the way. In fact, yesterday, I ruined a brand new chain when I went to cut down a red maple sapling (maybe 5" DBH) that my log "packet" got hung up on. I cut the front wedge out, then went to cut the back cut with the 660 and the tree was so small that there was no room for a wedge, and I was trying to drop it in the opposite direction of a (very slight) lean but I figured I could push it over...and the dam thing sat back on my bar. Couldn't pull out the bar and chain. Plus, I had made the cuts about 4' high because my "log packet" was piled up at the base of the tree and I didn't want to be sawing near the wire rope and chain (yeah, I know, I would have had to anyway, I thought of that afterwards, too) so now I've got a 660 with 28" bar pinched at the tip of the bar about 4 feet off the ground while the tree tries to think of ways to fall and kill me... what do I do? Grabbed a peavey to hold up the powerhead while I scratched my head from a safe distance. Tried pushing the tree over with another long dead log. No go -- tree was maybe 25' tall and branches snarled with other branches. Then the peavey fell over and the powerhead fell down. So then I was afraid the tree would fall on the saw and smash it, so I got my scrench and detached the b+c from powerhead. Finally I just pulled the tree down with chain and truck. Ended up with brand new Stihl chain all bent and twisted for about 2-3". Tried straightening it in a vise using pliers and hammer and drift...does this generally work? Tried to run it, but it keeps coming out of the track in the bar. Went with another new chain I had on hand...What a fiasco!

Anyway, one question -- when you said



northmanlogging said:


> Last, start close and work your way out, unless there is a hill, then skid top down, preferably skidding up hill.



Did you mean to say "preferably skidding down hill" ? Not sure I understand, otherwise.

Thanks again.

P.S. Watched your bucking video in the next post, then watched your video "Stretching out the 084" ... What kind of a tree was that you dropped? Wish we had trees like that out East...a couple trees like that and you could build a barn.


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## northmanlogging (May 9, 2018)

If you ever find yourself on a hill, keep the logs below where you are working, so if and when something comes loose you are uphill from it, takes more lift and more power but being dead i supposed to be permanent so... skid top down, fall and buck bottom up, keep death trapped with gravity.

The vid is a douglas fir. Not the biggest i've cut, but close.

They get much bigger here.


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## northmanlogging (May 9, 2018)

To be clear, i limb and scribe butt to top, the buck top down unless there is a hill, then the plan changes according to gravity.


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## Canyon Angler (May 9, 2018)

I gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I like that "keep death trapped with gravity" line, sounds like a good way to remember certain things.


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## rocketnorton (May 9, 2018)

forget what it's called, but cut taper on end of log youre hooked to.
from old horse skiddin days
don't have pic handy, but maybe some one here...
or google old logging pics

found one


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## Canyon Angler (May 9, 2018)

Thank you, RocketNorton, yeah, I do that, but still my logs and log bundles seem to have RADAR and will FIND the only tree within 30 yds to get fouled in...

Also saw something called a log skidding cone that helps keep the log bouncing off of obstructions but they want $160 for a piece of plastic...no thanks. But I plan to try to make something similar from the hemispherical end of a big steel propane bottle...


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## rwoods (May 9, 2018)

dancan said:


> Skidding cone
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ron


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## Canyon Angler (May 9, 2018)

Some clever ideas there, Ron, thanks for sharing. I imagine that boat fender cone thing works well in the snow.

In case you missed it, in the OP, I linked this steel skid scoot sled thing:



At first I was trying to figure out how to fabricate the thing in the video, but then I got the idea to use the round end of a propane bottle. I figure I could use 3/4" pipe for the "frame" of the sled, and weld it to the hemispherical portion of the propane bottle, and could probably get two "sleds" out of each end of a propane bottle...


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## madhatte (May 9, 2018)

I winched a bunch of logs onto a trailer using an old car hood as a "scoot sled thing" awhile back. Worked fine. 

Also the thing about tapering the ends of the logs to aid horse skidding is called "sniping". This is unrelated to the same word used to describe a steep second angle in a face cut.


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## Canyon Angler (May 10, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I winched a bunch of logs onto a trailer using an old car hood as a "scoot sled thing" awhile back. Worked fine.



Thanks, Madhatter, that's even simpler. About 10 years ago, I unearthed an old car hood from beneath about 3' of honeysuckle that was overgrowing a pecan tree in the yard here, now I wish I had saved it.



madhatte said:


> Also the thing about tapering the ends of the logs to aid horse skidding is called "sniping".



Now the "snipe" that you get on the end of a board that comes out of the planer makes more sense.


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## Skeans (May 10, 2018)

Canyon Angler said:


> Thanks, Madhatter, that's even simpler. About 10 years ago, I unearthed an old car hood from beneath about 3' of honeysuckle that was overgrowing a pecan tree in the yard here, now I wish I had saved it.
> 
> 
> 
> Now the "snipe" that you get on the end of a board that comes out of the planer makes more sense.



On your guys coast if it’s on the board it’s from the face out here we have to square the butts off.


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## Canyon Angler (May 11, 2018)

Planer snipe:
https://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/dealing-with-planer-snipe/


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