# Please check this knot...



## DeanBrown3D (Aug 17, 2006)

This is what I am planning to use for life support line. Its an anchor knot backed up with a sliding fisherman's.







All ok?

Thanks

Dean


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## woodchux (Aug 17, 2006)

Might be a little bulky...

I use just the double fisherman.


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## Bearclaw (Aug 17, 2006)

I have been using the same not, (an anchor knot backed by a fishermans knot) for quite some time. I have found no drawbacks. The knot is easy to tie, untie, and is one of the better knots as far as friction and strength. I have noticed that if the anchor knot is not set, there is quite some creep, that's why you should always back up all your lifeline knots with some sort of safety knot.


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## Ekka (Aug 17, 2006)

What I dont like about it is the two thicknesses, or turns on the biner, a space hog.

I have 1 biner on my centre D's. I open it to remove the terminal end of the life line, chuck it over another limb and put it back in the same biner. That's what I do. Only one biner to watch, no 2 biners rubbing or clashing for room, no throwing biners above me.

Now if the end of your lifeline doesn't have a tightly spliced eye you are supposed to girth hitch to the biner so it bites.

So all of a sudden if you are a 1 biner bloke like me that anchor hitch hogs too much room. Just do a sliding double fishermans, no????


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## Stumper (Aug 17, 2006)

Dan, You are fine-it's safe. I prefer a buntline-to each their own.


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## Stumper (Aug 17, 2006)

Dan, You are fine-it's safe. I prefer a buntline-to each their own.
I am assuming that you have a real climbing rope to actually use it with.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 17, 2006)

Ekka - thanks, that's good info and I will heed it. 

Justin - Yes, that is just some old anchor rope I practice with. I was going to use new prusik cord, and a blake's knot on the other end where it attaches to the climbing line. (btw its Dean, not Dan )


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 17, 2006)

i think that it is secure; but not as clean or strong as double or triple noose/ anchor to itself; or our double/triple fisherpson's same with crossed round turn.

Here, the force after the Anchor/ on 'throat of Standing Part is minimal; as this vital part of determining strength enters first arc that leverages force, and friction that stretches line skinnier to add up to more compromised line tensile.

But with the double or triple noose/ anchor to self etc.; the force travels around krab, and the remainder grips the 'throat' of the Standing Part; at this first bend. i think the force around the 'throat' firms this vital area. i point to the consistent reports of higher percentage of line tensile preserved (or even sometimes surpassed?) in using this hitch; as opposed to virtually any other. Also, if we take a Round Turn (an upgrade that about always improves things) around the host mount of the krab first, then perform the double noose/ anchor to self etc.; we lose some security and preserved tensile strength by some reports. i think that generally we can do better by decreasing force sooner before the Bitters is nipped/ seized by placing it's lesser force under the holding force of the Standing Part. But here, force further down the Bitters (in Round Turn around self) can perform a helpful function of better clamping force to secure as well as fortify 'throat'. A Round Turn preceding, reducing what is now a helpful use of force; though in most lacings this isn't the case.


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## 046 (Aug 17, 2006)

here's what I use for my lifeline. a triplefisherman, possibly the most secure bend known. note: whipping contributes no strength. this setup is ideal for a termination you don't need to untie. double and triple fisherman jam so hard, it's hard to undo. 

if I need to untie a termination knot, I'll go with a figure eight backed up with a double fisherman. 

disclaimer: please don't use internet as your only source of info. find an experienced climber for instructions.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 17, 2006)

Absolutely. Climb020 is coming over hopefully one day this or next week to show me the ropes. Thanks for the knot! I have not seen how to tie that one anywhere but I will look.

Dean


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## Stumper (Aug 17, 2006)

Dean, Sorry about changing your name I assumed (incorrectly) that you were looking for a knot to secure your climbing line end to a connector. For that use I prefer a knot that unties easily after loading. Your post above indicates that this is really for tying your split tail to a connector. That is a knot that can stay tied until you discard the tail. By all means consider the Scaffold knot(Dble or triple overhand noose knot aka (due to misnaming several years ago) Dble or triple Fisherman's. These are very secure knots that are also compact and send the tail parrallel to the standing line.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 17, 2006)

iHey Justin - cheers for that. Good point about it being a permanent knot.


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## Fireaxman (Aug 17, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> Thanks for the knot! I have not seen how to tie that one anywhere but I will look.
> 
> Dean



Dean, Stumper or somebody can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the knot 046 is showing you is the same knot you backed up your anchor knot with in your first post of this thread. 046 just put an extra wrap around it with the bitter end before he ran the bitter end back through the center of the knot. Stumper, isn't that the same " Scaffold knot(Dble or triple overhand noose knot aka (due to misnaming several years ago) Dble or triple Fisherman's." you were referring to? I looked up the history on it. Just as you said, it really was used for a gallows (Scaffold) knot before the "Hangman's Noose" was invented. Seems it resulted in a slow death by strangulation, and the more humane "Hangeman's Noose" replaced it because the Hangeman's Noose (properly tied with 13 wraps in heavy enough rope) broke the neck with the heavy wraps above the bend.

046 - you do good work - all very new and neat and tidy. You put me to shame. But just to share with Dean I'll embarass myself with what I have. Same knot, just an extra wrap.


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## Fireaxman (Aug 18, 2006)

Spydie and Dean - Thanks for the heads up on the round turn before the anchor / scaffold knot. When I'm using the Blakes on a split tail double crotched I've had some trouble with the scaffold knot creeping around to the back side of the 'biner, putting my "D's" on the gate of the biner. I was going to play with some corner traps to cure the problem, but I'm betting the round turn before the scaffold knot will solve the problem.


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## 046 (Aug 18, 2006)

only difference between double fisherman and triple fisherman is an extra loop. when using termination knots without a backup. I prefer to use triple fisherman for extra security. 

note when using spectra, triple fisherman is the ONLY bend to terminate with. 

tying your knots "pretty" is more than cosmetic. setting your knots properly results in a particular symmetrical shape and is a fail safe indication knot is tied properly.


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## arboralliance (Aug 19, 2006)

*A little confused...*



Fireaxman said:


> Dean, Stumper or somebody can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the knot 046 is showing you is the same knot you backed up your anchor knot with in your first post of this thread. 046 just put an extra wrap around it with the bitter end before he ran the bitter end back through the center of the knot. Stumper, isn't that the same " Scaffold knot(Dble or triple overhand noose knot aka (due to misnaming several years ago) Dble or triple Fisherman's." you were referring to? I looked up the history on it. Just as you said, it really was used for a gallows (Scaffold) knot before the "Hangman's Noose" was invented. Seems it resulted in a slow death by strangulation, and the more humane "Hangeman's Noose" replaced it because the Hangeman's Noose (properly tied with 13 wraps in heavy enough rope) broke the neck with the heavy wraps above the bend.
> 
> 046 - you do good work - all very new and neat and tidy. You put me to shame. But just to share with Dean I'll embarass myself with what I have. Same knot, just an extra wrap.





Fireaxman great pic though I am confused as to why/how you have tied straight to your running or static "D" as it/they are not designed to be tied directly into on a load bearing system as seems the case here...

One can see clearly that they have what is considered a very sharp radius on the innner and outer diameter and they are therefore much further reducing the strength of the line through the bend they make (i.e. they are infact cutting the line when you load it because of the shape and therefore nature of the "D" cross cut profile) a carabiner or Mallion etc is designed to go between harness "D" and line/knot etc...

Anyone concur/disagree?


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## Fireaxman (Aug 20, 2006)

Good eye, Arbor. I own a 1985 vintage Klein Butt Strap saddle. When I discarded the lineman's belt and started climbing advanced friction hitches I wanted to try a floating D harness. So I tied the two butt strap D rings together with arboplex as a "Temporary" measure until I decided what kind of (new) saddle to buy. There is not enough room for 'biners and still have it function as a sliding D bridge. 

I have since settled into a Buckingham Traverse, but the "Temporary" measure worked so well I still use it for short, simple climbs where I dont need much gear. It was in the house when the question came up about the knots, so I grabbed it as an example of a triple wrap scaffold knot.

The D's are worn pretty smooth, and the arboplex shows no signs of wear. I am aware of the risk and I check it often. I think I am still well under safe working load for the knots at my 170 pounds with gear. I probably should at least re-tie them with a round turn, but of course the knots are set hard enough now that I would have to cut them out and make a new "Bridge". But it still works so well I just hate to mess with it.


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## Bearclaw (Aug 30, 2006)

Ekka said:


> What I dont like about it is the two thicknesses, or turns on the biner, a space hog.
> 
> I have 1 biner on my centre D's. I open it to remove the terminal end of the life line, chuck it over another limb and put it back in the same biner. That's what I do. Only one biner to watch, no 2 biners rubbing or clashing for room, no throwing biners above me.
> 
> ...



I like your idea of one beaner, I think I'm going to try using that technique for a while. However, sometimes my ropes loop around several branches on the way to the cambium saver, and its nice to be able to click off one side or the other to get around it. I usually work in locusts, cottonwoods, maples, and elm trees though.

Any other tricks you use?


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## Ekka (Aug 31, 2006)

Here's a pic, but you are now supposed to girth hitch the terminal end on under a new ANSI rule


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## Bearclaw (Sep 1, 2006)

Looks great. I think the new ansi rule is a good idea. When I am climbing and I advance my prusik, I've noticed that sometime (with the slack) when I go to put my weight back on the line, my beaner has shifted so the weight is on the gate and the spine. Having a hitched knot keeps that from happening....well happening less often. Thanks for the tip Ekka.


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## (WLL) (Dec 22, 2006)

*b2 bridge*

this is what i like


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