# Dump Truck Question...



## ALCAN (Mar 18, 2007)

Need some Advise. Say you have a 1990 ish model F350 dump truck that looks rough, but runs good, and gets 6 miles to the gallon. This is your "Main Truck" that you operate out of. You go to every job with this truck. other trucks like winch truck and bucket truck/ or chipper truck, you take whenever necessary, but this truck you take everywhere. 

Do you...

A. Keep it until the wheels fall off
B. Upgrade to newer truck for eye appeal and mileage reasons
C. Keep the truck and upgrade, only using it on ocassion. 

A, B, or C and reason for desicion.


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## Mr. Firewood (Mar 18, 2007)

if it paid for keep it, it is only costing you to insure.... I went through this debate with my former biz partner that wanted to buy 3 brand new 3500's, like I told him, I can take that $600 a month payment per truck and put that $600 into each of our current trucks for 2-3 months and do some repairs and repaint them and have decient looking trucks, he said no way so I dumpped him and now I have 3 older "classics" that run like a top and look good too, example: for $600 I bought all new sheetmetal for my 79 Ford F-350 including a new grille and windsheild and had Maaco spray it, now it looks real nice and I actually get complimented on it...umpkin2:


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## ALCAN (Mar 18, 2007)

Awesome! Thanks for the feed back. I appreciate your input.

any others?


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## lawson's tree s (Mar 18, 2007)

id keep the truck and fix it up good thing is if you cant work for a while cause of the weather. etc you dont have to pay the payment to the bank. i have a 1969 ford f 350 chip truck it is used everyday. i made it look nice by putting a aluminum chip body on it. new truck can break down too.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 18, 2007)

With good maintenence there is no reason not to keep her going


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## jazak (Mar 18, 2007)

B (but theres ALOT more to it then what you have listed for B)....some of my reasons:

1- No warranty
2- Already 16+ years old
3- If you look at a new or newer truck they are actually CHEAPER to run then an older truck....
4- Not going to last much longer
5- I doubt its dependability
6- I don't like running anything older then 6 years old
7- Eye appeal..what do people think whne they see that truck??

Mr Firewood...please look carefuly at what i said at number 3....you are taking $600+ dollars and spending it on OLDER equipment which then becomes a money pit and has no resale value...think about it..


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## begleytree (Mar 18, 2007)

1- No warranty - right, so if the alternator goes out, you pay $100 and take 30 minutes and replace it. with a new one, its going to sit in the shop parking lot a minimum of 1 day before it even goes in. why do they even have warranty? because new stuff breaks too. at least on an older truck, most issues are sorted out long ago.

2- Already 16+ years old -you can't legally touch a woman until she's 18, so whats your point? see #1, #4 and #5

3- If you look at a new or newer truck they are actually CHEAPER to run then an older truck.... -sometimes yes, sometimes no. lets call this one even, ok?

4- Not going to last much longer- says who? even throwing on a new set of fenders and doors and a paint job, and go thru the driveline, he's still much cheaper than a new truck. heck a new motor can be had (with a warranty) for the cost of a payment, 2 or 3 at the most. you're still 57 payments ahead at 60 months. not counting insurance costs of a new model.

5- I doubt its dependability- I don't. older trucks were built right and heavier duty, and built simpler. they actually last forever with a little maintence. I'd like to know why you automatically assume that an older vehicle is junk, or waiting to break down. Lots of early 80s chippers still grinding brush while 06 vermeers are sitting in the shop. there are things called parts stores, and a thing called maintence. you do the same to a new truck as you do an older one. see #6

6- I don't like running anything older then 6 years old- thats your personal choice. sounds like you just drive them until they fall apart so then yes, you will need a new one every 5-6 years. like your saw, maintain it and it will last a lifetime. try doing a little maintence on it and you will likely find that after its paid off, you still have a great truck without the big payment and actually make money. then you can take care of the other commitments you enter into instead of stringing them along and finally blowing them off. 

7- Eye appeal..what do people think when they see that truck??- around here? they say COOL! check out that old truck! man, that thing runs sweet! boy, they sure don't make them like they used to!! no one cares what you are driving, and if they actually do, you probably dont want to work for them anyway. Most only care that your equipment looks good and functions good, and you get the job done. I have a few clients that have a million in just an extra lot they bought to keep neighbors away. funny that they keep an older truck around too, they tell me they hate to get rid of it because its never let them down, its still a good old truck. but hey, keep staying in debt for a new model if you want to. finance companies love guys like you.

-Ralph


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## jazak (Mar 18, 2007)

Ralph I agree with some of what your saying...but people here & people by you are two totaly different kinds of people...a newer nice truck/equipment in many cases will land you the job here..the warranties are VERY useful, also what you obvousily don't understand is that MOST problems are fixed with the newer truck in 2 years or less so right now the years from 03-07 on the Chevy/GMC are great years & the 97-03 or 04-07 are great years for Ford...it is cheaper to buy NEW then buy slightly used...I've looked at finance rates, milage, deprecation, parts, ect...for me it would be cheaper to buy new then buy slightly used or keep an older truck...after a certain point the truck/equipment becomes a MONEY PIT...why dump $$$$ into a older truck when for the same amount of $$$$ or maybe a few bucks more you have a new or newer truck??!!!?? Where is the common sense in that?? With the chippers....WE ALL know Vermeer is horrible this though has NOTHING to do with TRUCKS as all the truck companies make GOOD dependable truck, so how a horrible chipper comapny comes into the picture I have no clue..

Sure the truck can last longer if you want to constantly dump $$$$ into it, but why in the world would you want to dump $$$$$ into OLDER, AGING equipment????????


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## Dadatwins (Mar 18, 2007)

Once you see the price of new equipment you will go out wash the old truck and probably change the oil on it just for the he!! of it  No reason to get rid of the old truck if it is mechanically sound and safe. JMHO


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## jmcguiretree (Mar 18, 2007)

Keep the truck,fix it up and save you money to buy a newer truck when you really need it.Buying a new truck now will only create a debt that you will be working twice as hard to pay for.SAVE your money now ,buy with cash later.
:deadhorse:


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## ShoerFast (Mar 18, 2007)

You might want to take a look at improving the mileage a little, cold air kits , free up some exhaust, if you have some down time, it's not to hard to put a camshaft in that may match your use a little better? a couple more miles a gallon can pay for its self in no time.


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## ALCAN (Mar 19, 2007)

I like the Pros vs. Cons going on here, it helps me weigh everything. The Majority of people on this thread say Keep it, fix it up, that's the way to go. Only a few say buy new, but the buy new guys offer more helpful information. Only Shoerfast for the "Keep it" campaign offers a possible solution to the real issue, cost.


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## jazak (Mar 19, 2007)

If you're hurting on $$$$$ then keep it and use it until you have enough $$$$ to get something new or newer...but like I said above after a while any piece of equipment becomes a $$$$$ PIT.....6 miles to the gallon is horrible, my buddy has a 2004 F-550 & gets 10 town & 12 highway....If you want to you could keep it as a backup truck but either way I would get a new or newer daily driver...


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## Treeman587 (Mar 19, 2007)

Many good points here. There is nothing wrong with an old truck. I have an 86 F600, runs good, beat a new international in a drag race. 

As far as the six miles to a gallon, check your intake and exhaust systems. If you have a plug in the system, that is why. You should probally do a tune up too. Some new plugs, cap, rotor, wires, and check the timing.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 19, 2007)

jazak said:


> If you're hurting on $$$$$ then keep it and use it until you have enough $$$$ to get something new or newer...but like I said above after a while any piece of equipment becomes a $$$$$ PIT.....6 miles to the gallon is horrible, my buddy has a 2004 F-550 & gets 10 town & 12 highway....If you want to you could keep it as a backup truck but either way I would get a new or newer daily driver...




Well, with the age of his truck, He could probally improve its value right now with a few things. And there is a bottom dollar for every truck. At some point it hits a mark where you will always be able to get atleast so much $$$$ for it. So why not keep it.


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## LightningLoader (Mar 21, 2007)

I have to agree with all the stuff that people have said here about older trucks being easier to maintain. All the electrical and computerized stuff on these new trucks is a pain. It makes your fuel efficiency better, but it also makes your problems harder to fix. Old trucks where everything's mechanical, something breaks, it's obvious what's gone wrong, new trucks you have to take it back to the dealer to hook up to a computer...

I really think that either way you go you're not making a mistake. If you're going to keep the old truck, just make sure the paint looks good. If you want to get a new one, it'd be great if you could keep the oldie as a backup in case the other goes to the dealer for a 3 day warranty job, but I don't know how much more that would cost you in insurance.

How far away is your nearest new truck dealer? Are you familiar with them already and how they are on service etc? This may be the deciding factor on a deal like this.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 21, 2007)

jazak said:


> why dump $$$$ into a older truck when for the same amount of $$$$ or maybe a few bucks more you have a new or newer truck??!!!??



What maintenence on his old truck will even approach the cost of a new truck? Even if he put a new motor and tranny, and painted the truck it wouldn't get close to a new truck price! Plus the early 90s F-series looks great! I think a good looking older truck shows that he takes good care of his equipment, and that speaks volumes.

Also I think the clientele in Oklahoma is probably more like the those in Ohio than NJ. But that's just my opinion.


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## jazak (Mar 21, 2007)

rb_in_va said:


> What maintenence on his old truck will even approach the cost of a new truck? Even if he put a new motor and tranny, and painted the truck it wouldn't get close to a new truck price! Plus the early 90s F-series looks great! I think a good looking older truck shows that he takes good care of his equipment, and that speaks volumes.
> 
> *Also I think the clientele in Oklahoma is probably more like the those in Ohio than NJ. But that's just my opinion.*



That is probably true... OK lets know talk about maintenance & the truck in general....

First lets look at everything you have to replace with these older trucks, motor, tranny, brakes, brake lines, paint, new sheet metal here & there, oil, filters, ect, ect. The you have to consider that you're spending this $$$$$ on a almost worthless truck. No matter what you do with it no matter what you fix on it _NO ONE_ will give you more the $3.5K for it and thats saying something. You take all that $$$$$ that you dumped into it and you have *ATLEAST 12 PAYMENTS* on a new or newer truck. And I haven't even gone into all the $$$$ he would save on gas/diesel. You're spending this $$$$$ on a *OLD* truck that is a *MONEY PIT*. Have ANY of you guys EVER thought on here when your machine/truck becomes a money pit???? If so please tell me what your definition of a "MONEY PIT" is. But I highly doubt any of you have.

Like I've said before, _"WHY DUMP *MONEY* INTO A OLDER, AGING, DEPRECAITING, DYING TRUCK THEN A NEW ONE??????" _It doesn't make ANY sense to me......


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## rb_in_va (Mar 21, 2007)

jazak said:


> First lets look at everything you have to replace with these older trucks, motor, tranny, brakes, brake lines, paint, new sheet metal here & there, oil, filters, ect, ect. The you have to consider that you're spending this $$$$$ on a almost worthless truck. No matter what you do with it no matter what you fix on it _NO ONE_ will give you more the $3.5K for it and thats saying something. You take all that $$$$$ that you dumped into it and you have *ATLEAST 12 PAYMENTS* on a new or newer truck.



Let's say you have to replace everything said on that truck (an unlikely situation if the truck has been maintained well but I will humor you). What happens after the 12 months? You're still paying on the new truck and the old truck is good to go for a long time! And as far as depreciation goes, new trucks depreciate far faster than old ones.


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## LightningLoader (Mar 21, 2007)

jazak said:


> That is probably true... OK lets know talk about maintenance & the truck in general....
> 
> First lets look at everything you have to replace with these older trucks, motor, tranny, brakes, brake lines, paint, new sheet metal here & there, oil, filters, ect, ect. The you have to consider that you're spending this $$$$$ on a almost worthless truck. No matter what you do with it no matter what you fix on it _NO ONE_ will give you more the $3.5K for it and thats saying something. You take all that $$$$$ that you dumped into it and you have *ATLEAST 12 PAYMENTS* on a new or newer truck. And I haven't even gone into all the $$$$ he would save on gas/diesel. You're spending this $$$$$ on a *OLD* truck that is a *MONEY PIT*. Have ANY of you guys EVER thought on here when your machine/truck becomes a money pit???? If so please tell me what your definition of a "MONEY PIT" is. But I highly doubt any of you have.
> 
> Like I've said before, _"WHY DUMP *MONEY* INTO A OLDER, AGING, DEPRECAITING, DYING TRUCK THEN A NEW ONE??????" _It doesn't make ANY sense to me......




You sure you're not a truck dealer or something? You seem mighty sure that a new truck is the way to go, or you just like new in general?


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## rb_in_va (Mar 21, 2007)

LightningLoader said:


> You sure you're not a truck dealer or something? You seem mighty sure that a new truck is the way to go, or you just like new in general?



I think jazak is a landscape guy, not a truck dealer.


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## arbor pro (Mar 21, 2007)

Does fixed asset depreciation factor into your decision? For me, I run a combination of both older and newer equipment for a number of reasons:

1) I can usually depreciate a piece of equipment for up to 7 years. After the depreciation runs out, I sell it and buy a newer one so I can again claim depreciation. Not being able to depreciate your older equipment can be a big tax downfall if you end up showing a profit at year end. I work with an accountant who does all of my depreciation and keeps me informed as to when I need to make purchases for the sake of depreciation.

2) So long as you keep your older equipment maintained and looking professional, I strongly believe there is nothing wrong with running a 1979 3/4 ton or a 1990 Ford F350 (I have both and will only replace them when I need to for depreciation purposes).

3) The guy trying to sell you on running only new equipment may not have the same business structure as you; therefore, his advice might be well-intended but not applicable. If you only gross a fraction of what he does in a year, you can't necessarily expect to run all new equipment. YOUR equipment purchases have to be commensorate with your business' gross income, overhead and personnel capacity.

4) My advice - if you don't rely upon fixed asset depreciation to help out with year end taxes, there's nothing wrong with running older equipment so long as it doesn't look like crap. Business image is important so, spend a few bucks on making your old truck look nice. There's a big difference between running a 1990 ford with no dents, a nice paint job and professional business graphics vs a 1990 ford that's all dented and rusty and portrays the image to potential clients that your business is barely hanging on by a thread. While this strays from the subject a little, the same goes for your personal appearance. If you're going to fix up your truck but then show up on the jobsite in a holey grease-stained t-shirt looking like you've been living on the streets, you're defeating the whole purpose. Professionalism is in more than the year truck you drive...


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## Mr. Firewood (Mar 21, 2007)

jazak said:


> Mr Firewood...please look carefuly at what i said at number 3....you are taking $600+ dollars and spending it on OLDER equipment which then becomes a money pit and has no resale value...think about it..



has no resale value.... buddy I get offers of twice what I have in that truck ALL the time!

um... hmm I dont know where to begin on this comment... I bought the 1970 Ford for $300 and it needed work, so I spent around $800 total getting the truck "the way I want it".... in the last 5 months I have owned it I have received over a hundred compliments on the old iron and sence I deal with alot of older customers it always sparks a conversation and 95% of the time I get the Job (snow plowing and lawn work) granted I have a 2001 Dodge Durango and a 2005 PT Cruiser but 95% of the time I am in that "old relic" as you put it. it may have a big block but I still get 12-15 MPG if I dont beat too hard on it... here is a question... what would you say if I showed up to bid your property in my 65'?



once I worked the bugs out in the 70' the only problem I have had with it was.. o wait nothing in the last 10,000 miles 

all I can say is fix up your truck so it looks presentable and if people dont want to give you their business because you dont have a $80k work truck then trust me you dont want their business because they alwas end up being a pain in the ass.... I dont keep up with the Jones...lol
~Nate

:deadhorse: :deadhorse:


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## begleytree (Mar 21, 2007)

Sweet truck Firewood guy! If you showed up at my house, you'd probably get my biz too. I like a guy who likes nice things, especially when they get old!

BUT, you made one mistake. You cannot tell us (guys like me) that it has a big block without telling me what big block 
so? 390? 351? 352? 400M? 460?
while your at it, you might as well throw in tranny info too.
-Ralph


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## jazak (Mar 21, 2007)

rb_in_va said:


> I think jazak is a landscape guy, not a truck dealer.




I'm a tree guy...my son landscapes & NO I'm NOT a dealer....

Mr. Firewood that truck has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about here...

1- Its NOT a work truck
2- Its NOT a daily driver

Need more reasons????


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## howel07264 (Mar 21, 2007)

*buy a good newer used unit.*



rb_in_va said:


> What maintenence on his old truck will even approach the cost of a new truck? Even if he put a new motor and tranny, and painted the truck it wouldn't get close to a new truck price! Plus the early 90s F-series looks great! I think a good looking older truck shows that he takes good care of his equipment, and that speaks volumes.
> 
> Also I think the clientele in Oklahoma is probably more like the those in Ohio than NJ. But that's just my opinion.


 Ive got a bussiness assoc. that bought a supposedly low milage 80something ford dump 2 years ago cheap. last year he poured about 12k into this clunker and guess what ? its still a clunker. maybe worth 5k. Replaced fuel dillery system, ps pump, camshaft, valve job, tranny work, new tires, welding on frame, fuel tank, paint, and now the differential is shot.Buy a solid 2 or 3 year old unit with reasonable mileage and avoid the new truck payments.


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## howel07264 (Mar 21, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> Ive got a bussiness assoc. that bought a supposedly low milage 80something ford dump 2 years ago cheap. last year he poured about 12k into this clunker and guess what ? its still a clunker. maybe worth 5k. Replaced fuel dillery system, ps pump, camshaft, valve job, tranny work, new tires, welding on frame, fuel tank, paint, and now the differential is shot.Buy a solid 2 or 3 year old unit with reasonable mileage and avoid the new truck payments.


 By the way any downtime of your equipment means lost revenue . I don't have time running back and forth to the shop or worrying about breakdowns. just my 2cents.


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## Patrick62 (Mar 21, 2007)

*cool thread!*

I have to agree with the older truck theory.
New stuff is nice tho.... Warranty is great. The 16 year old beast is tested. It is reliable. As for the EFI making mileage better, remember he said it gets about 6. There maybe ways to improve that, but might not as well. What does it matter? It hauls. Diesel would run cheaper, but cost a fortune to obtain.

I had a different theory last year. I bought a 1974 Dodge dump conversion. It had been abused by previos owner, so it was tested... and pre-broken. Now I have well over 3000 in it, and it is functional. Not even close to pretty.

For a firewood hauler, pretty doesn't count. However as for simple it don't get much better than this.

383 with 435 granny tranny. 205 transfer case, 44 front and 70 rear. :hmm3grin2orange: 

-Pat


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## Timberhauler (Mar 21, 2007)

I've got a Freightliner truck with a straight bed and log standers,a international dump truck..Another international truck with a grapple loader,I refuse to own a bucket truck....My International trucks are both 95 models that were gone through and refurbished..The freightshaker is an old beater but gets the job done...I also have a 99 model F-450 with two hundred thousand miles and it isn't the best looking thing on the road...They are all well maintained,paid for and get the job done....I say if it ain't broke don't fix it....With all the big trucks,the F-450 still does the bulk of the work because it's so easy to get around in..Plus I can get it into places where I couldn't think of getting the bigger trucks...I plan on kepping the 450 until getting rid of it is absolutely unavoidable...I see many older nice looking dump trucks on the raod..Again if it's working for you and it's paid for,give it whatever it needs and keep it.


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## jazak (Mar 21, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> Ive got a bussiness assoc. that bought a supposedly low milage 80something ford dump 2 years ago cheap. last year he poured about 12k into this clunker and guess what ? its still a clunker. maybe worth 5k. Replaced fuel dillery system, ps pump, camshaft, valve job, tranny work, new tires, welding on frame, fuel tank, paint, and now the differential is shot.Buy a solid 2 or 3 year old unit with reasonable mileage and avoid the new truck payments.




THANK YOU....atleast someone on here has the BRAINS to agree with me!!!!


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## begleytree (Mar 21, 2007)

jazak said:


> THANK YOU....atleast someone on here has the BRAINS to agree with me!!!!



yup, dam, Jazak, you're just smarter than the rest of us poor idiots here. 

guess Im stupid to take care of my equipment. should be more like you and just trash it, WTH? gonna buy another one soon anyway!

smarter your not, in a different area with different type of people? maybe.
just because we dont agree with you doesnt make the rest of us dumb.

reminds me of the old joke that goes: statistics say that 1 out of every 5 people are mentally unstable. think of your 4 closest friends, if they're normal, it's you.

well, this old dumb boy is gonna close this post out.
-Ralph


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## huskydave (Mar 21, 2007)

here are my thoughts if you buy new: after you drive it off the lot you could have bought 2 old trucks like yours. Personnaly I won't buy a vehicle new 1 year old maybe let the other guy take the biggest hit on it + you still get a good warranty If the old truck starts costing you a lot in repairs then yes it is worth looking at a newer one but... if you enjoy working on it and it's not costing you an arm and a leg to keep it in good condition and it may have sentimental value than keep it fix it up some and later on you will have something nice to trade in. things I buy new:chainsaws quads and boats/motors they have very little deprciation .


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## Mr. Firewood (Mar 21, 2007)

jazak said:


> I'm a tree guy...my son landscapes & NO I'm NOT a dealer....
> 
> Mr. Firewood that truck has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about here...
> 
> ...



BULLSCHITT!!! I put more miles on the 70' then on my durango each month, the 65 after it is finished again will be my daily driver and I am going to sell my durango.... the 70' does more work then any new truck ever could, think I am lying? I got a chain buddy and we'll hook them up and someone is going to end up with a sore bum about it and it wont be me!
plowing 12" of snow from my accounts,... this truck was never shut off for 36 hours, not once and the only problem I had was when I hit a curb the headlight blew for the plow... btw that is a 10' blade





here is my 70 dropping off a load of wood (390 BTW) this was before I built the new steel mesh sides




all I can say on this topic is use what you have and do the best you can. 

~Nate


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## Timberhauler (Mar 22, 2007)

jazak said:


> That is probably true... OK lets know talk about maintenance & the truck in general....
> 
> First lets look at everything you have to replace with these older trucks, motor, tranny, brakes, brake lines, paint, new sheet metal here & there, oil, filters, ect, ect. The you have to consider that you're spending this $$$$$ on a almost worthless truck. No matter what you do with it no matter what you fix on it _NO ONE_ will give you more the $3.5K for it and thats saying something. You take all that $$$$$ that you dumped into it and you have *ATLEAST 12 PAYMENTS* on a new or newer truck. And I haven't even gone into all the $$$$ he would save on gas/diesel. You're spending this $$$$$ on a *OLD* truck that is a *MONEY PIT*. Have ANY of you guys EVER thought on here when your machine/truck becomes a money pit???? If so please tell me what your definition of a "MONEY PIT" is. But I highly doubt any of you have.
> 
> Like I've said before, _"WHY DUMP *MONEY* INTO A OLDER, AGING, DEPRECAITING, DYING TRUCK THEN A NEW ONE??????" _It doesn't make ANY sense to me......



Twelve payments????What about the other 48.To mention what about the higher cost of insurance on a new truck,or how about the higher taxes on a new truck?????...I will step right up here and say that me and my little four man crew are turning a little a half million dollars a year gross...But these are four employees that are getting paid well...actually even sharing a little profit...Lets see here...As I mentioned,everything sitting on my lot is paid off,there are no payments being made.I have done well buying well maintained USED trucks for my business...Here's how it works out...I write a check,drive the truck home and it is mine....So what happens if you happen to hit a dry spell and your not able to make payments??That new truck will end up behind a wrecker.Then what?You have given up a truck that was paid for for this new truck that is no longer yours..One might say this will never happen,but after fifteen years in this business IT DOES,it happens to everyone now and then,and it's always unexpected and at the most awkward times....You better walk in someone else's shoes there buddy before you go questioning someone's brain.....And I'll bet that my trucks are making just as much money,possibly even more since they are PAID FOR,than a new truck would.


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## lawson's tree s (Mar 22, 2007)

nice looking trucks mr.firewood ive got a 1969 ford f350 i built a aluminum chip body on it only has 64,000 original miles its got the 351 windsor . the 390 should be more than enough power for your truck. i dont own a new trucks newest one is a 89 wont own a new one to much computer stuff on them today. when they dont start you got to take them to a shop/ at least with the older stuff you can climb inside the hood and work on any thing.


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## lawson's tree s (Mar 22, 2007)

he's a picture of my 1969 ford f350


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## arbor pro (Mar 22, 2007)

The decision whether to buy new equipment or keep running old seems to boil down to three primary factors: professionalism, maintenance and financial benefit.

1) PROFESSIONALISM: Can you make your older equipment appear professional to your customer base? I certainly believe that older equipment that looks good and runs good can convey a professinal image potentially as well as new equipment. But, if you're going to run older equipment, your personal image and that of your employees had better be squeaky clean so your customers' attention is on who's providing the services for them and not on what equipment is being used to support the service. 

I think more important that new or used is the realization that certain types of equipment can draw the attention of the public. When I first ran the only 18" whole tree chipper in my town, people would gather enmasse to watch an entire 40' spruce tree get run through the beast in one piece. Yes, it was brand new but, folks were watching the beast because it was a beast - not because it was pretty. On the other hand, I could draw similar attention with my 6" drum chipper. Besides the obnoxious noise level that would draw out the curiousity in people from 2 miles away, folks just loved to watch branches disappear into the machine in a blink of an eye. Perhaps, they were also curious to see if I or an employee would disappear into it just as quickly (they don't call 'em 'chuck and ducks' for nothing). A 6" disk chipper just doesn't have the same effect on folks. As another example, I get more onlookers when I run my mini skid loader than I do when I run a full-size one. People seem to find the power of the mini intriguing and are always asking me questions about it.

2) MAINTENANCE AND FINANCIAL BENEFIT: What works best mechanically and financially for your business? We're not all mechanics and, regardless of what many members of this list might think, we don't need to be to be in this line of business. I take my older stuff to a local mechanic and having him work on it is still cheaper than buying new equipment in most cases. However, when I consider asset depreciation into the tax picture, it often costs me money in by not trading off the old equipment and buying new that I can claim depreciation on. 

I'll repeat my comments from my previous post - what works for one business isn't necessarily going to work for another. Period! Jazak, running new equipment might work for your business but, you're out of line by insinuating that EVERY business would be better off in the long run by running only newer equipment. You're just as entitled to your opinion as any of us are but none of us can rightly tell another business how to manage his finances. There are too many factors involved with such a decision. If a business doesn't have the income base to support new bank payments and insurance, it could just wind up as another bankruptcy statistic and the owner soon looking for a new line of work with a bad credit record hanging over his head. 

I do agree with you (Jazak) that there are numerous advantages to running new equipment. However, it's important to consider those advantages without dispelling so quickly the advantages of running older equipment. Advising a new business to run only new equipment without knowing his company's financial position could be a highly irresponsible thing to do. I would like to think that we all putting our two cents worth into this forum because we want to learn and want to help other folks learn - not steer them down a path that might be deprimental to them...


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## Mr. Firewood (Mar 22, 2007)

lawson's tree s said:


> he's a picture of my 1969 ford f350



wow that is a purdy box on there


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

*Great post!*



arbor pro said:


> The decision whether to buy new equipment or keep running old seems to boil down to three primary factors: professionalism, maintenance and financial benefit.
> 
> 1) PROFESSIONALISM: Can you make your older equipment appear professional to your customer base? I certainly believe that older equipment that looks good and runs good can convey a professinal image potentially as well as new equipment. But, if you're going to run older equipment, your personal image and that of your employees had better be squeaky clean so your customers' attention is on who's providing the services for them and not on what equipment is being used to support the service.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with your post. I believe when i show up at a clients home looking clean and neat, driving a 45k chevy duramax, hauling a 35kstump grinder i can and do command a premium price for my services. its all about first impressions. driving a wore out clunker through some of the upscale neighborhoods i work is an open invitation to being pulled over and harrassed by the police. i see it all the time. In 5 years i've never been stopped.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 22, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> I believe when i show up at a clients home looking clean and neat, driving a 45k chevy duramax, hauling a 35kstump grinder i can and do command a premium price for my services. its all about first impressions. driving a wore out clunker through some of the upscale neighborhoods i work is an open invitation to being pulled over and harrassed by the police.



If a guy passed through those upscale neighborhoods in a truck like this he'd get pulled over by the cops?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1981...095333593QQcategoryZ39416QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I someone came to my house in a truck like this that was in good condition I would hire him just to see the truck again!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1951...oryZ6173QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## begleytree (Mar 22, 2007)

theres a guy in the next county over has a big flatbed wrecker that he put the cab off an early 40's on and hit it with a custom paint job. that thing is gorgeous! about run off the road looking at it. maybe thats the point LOL
-Ralph


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## Mr. Firewood (Mar 22, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> driving a wore out clunker through some of the upscale neighborhoods i work is an open invitation to being pulled over and harrassed by the police. i see it all the time. In 5 years i've never been stopped.



I have never been stopped in either of my two older fords and I drive the 70' daily into neighborhoods where the houses are over a mil each... I hate to soulnd like an ass but you wont win this topic with me


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

*Apples and oranges*



Mr. Firewood said:


> I have never been stopped in either of my two older fords and I drive the 70' daily into neighborhoods where the houses are over a mil each... I hate to soulnd like an ass but you wont win this topic with me


People have a good idea what their expecting to pay for a load of firewood. Most don't have a clue what a stump removal job should cost. The point is nice truck and equipment looks "PROFESSIONAL" and thereby commands top dollar. I will give you an example, When Katrina winds removed half the shingles on my home our subdivision was flooded with roofing contractors. Several came by in old wore-out trucks with tar under their nails and a 3 day beard. They submitted a bid to me to re-roof my home. I also got a bid from a man that was clean and neat driving late model truck with a fully itemized bid sheet along with proof of insurance.His bid was $900 more . Call me stupid but he got the job along with many of my neighbors. Professional look = professional pay!


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

rb_in_va said:


> If a guy passed through those upscale neighborhoods in a truck like this he'd get pulled over by the cops?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1981...095333593QQcategoryZ39416QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> ...



In Most of my jobs i'm dealing with the housewife with the husband at work. I can assure you she isn't interested in any "vintage" vehicle i drive up in. Hey, i love old vehicles too, but were not in a parade... this is bussiness!


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## rb_in_va (Mar 22, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> Several came by in old wore-out trucks with tar under their nails and a 3 day beard. They submitted a bid to me to re-roof my home. I also got a bid from a man that was clean and neat driving late model truck with a fully itemized bid sheet along with proof of insurance.His bid was $900 more . Call me stupid but he got the job along with many of my neighbors. Professional look = professional pay!



You are missing something here. Read my lips! Old truck but well maintained and in good shape. Same for the guy driving the truck as well. 

On a side note, I bet that grubby looking guy was so busy he didn't care whether he got your business or not!


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

rb_in_va said:


> You are missing something here. Read my lips! Old truck but well maintained and in good shape. Same for the guy driving the truck as well.
> 
> On a side note, I bet that grubby looking guy was so busy he didn't care whether he got your business or not![/QUOTEIf that was you in the old "well maintained " clunker that bid on roofing my home i apologize for any derogatory remarks. I really don't think i was talking about you. Just talking about my first impression i had regarding a prospective contractor.Don't take things so personal.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 22, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> If that was you in the old "well maintained " clunker that bid on roofing my home i apologize for any derogatory remarks. I really don't think i was talking about you. Just talking about my first impression i had regarding a prospective contractor.Don't take things so personal.



Lol, it wasn't me. I'm in Virginia, and I'm not taking anything personally. It's just that people seem to think all old trucks are clunkers. My truck is 12 years old, and people comment all the time on how nice it is. Of course its not a work truck either, but I think folks can maintain their older trucks and keep them looking nice.


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

*Great looking truck*



rb_in_va said:


> Lol, it wasn't me. I'm in Virginia, and I'm not taking anything personally. It's just that people seem to think all old trucks are clunkers. My truck is 12 years old, and people comment all the time on how nice it is. Of course its not a work truck either, but I think folks can maintain their older trucks and keep them looking nice.


 You have a great looking truck. I can assure you that the guy that showed up at my home was driving a "clunker". I wish i had thought to take a few digital pics. so i could share with everyone.


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## CaseyForrest (Mar 22, 2007)

While having new equipment is nice. I think more respect is gained when someone shows up in an older piece of iron that still looks good. 

If its paid for and still running, theres no reason to get rid of it. If its still making you money without costing you more than its making, no reason to get rid of it. JMO.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 22, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> You have a great looking truck. I can assure you that the guy that showed up at my home was driving a "clunker". I wish i had thought to take a few digital pics. so i could share with everyone.



I know what you mean. I myself would probably hire someone with a decent looking rig over a heap. Now if I got 2 guys with decent trucks one old and one new other things would definitely come into play.


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## lawson's tree s (Mar 22, 2007)

when i hire guys to do work for me i look at the vechile and if its real new i wont hire them to do the job cause i don't want to make his payments for him. id rather hire a guy with a older truck who has confidence in doing the job. i like to see older trucks doing the work and going down the road they dont make them today like they used too. i see tree companys in my area with 200k worth of equipment the owner has to be paying some healthy payment to the bank where me and my older trucks etc are pocketing the money.


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

lawson's tree s said:


> when i hire guys to do work for me i look at the vechile and if its real new i wont hire them to do the job cause i don't want to make his payments for him. id rather hire a guy with a older truck who has confidence in doing the job. i like to see older trucks doing the work and going down the road they dont make them today like they used too. i see tree companys in my area with 200k worth of equipment the owner has to be paying some healthy payment to the bank where me and my older trucks etc are pocketing the money.



You ever thought that the guy with nice vehicle and payments that go along with it my be MORE motivated to work long and hard in order to pay his bills? The quickest way to make a man lazy with a don't care atitude is to have no financial obligations. I once owned an auto and truck dealership. All my new salesman were encouraged to buy a nice new house and car. I wanted them HUNGRY AND MOTIVATED!


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## CaseyForrest (Mar 22, 2007)

howel07264 said:


> You ever thought that the guy with nice vehicle and payments that go along with it my be MORE motivated to work long and hard in order to pay his bills? The quickest way to make a man lazy with a don't care atitude is to have no financial obligations. I once owned an auto and truck dealership. All my new salesman were encouraged to buy a nice new house and car. I wanted them HUNGRY AND MOTIVATED!




Some are motivated by different things. Im more motivated if I know the money Im earning is going into my pocket. Not having financial obligations leaves one open to work as much or as little as they like, rather than needing to work to pay the bills.


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## howel07264 (Mar 22, 2007)

*forgot something*



lawson's tree s said:


> when i hire guys to do work for me i look at the vechile and if its real new i wont hire them to do the job cause i don't want to make his payments for him. id rather hire a guy with a older truck who has confidence in doing the job. i like to see older trucks doing the work and going down the road they dont make them today like they used too. i see tree companys in my area with 200k worth of equipment the owner has to be paying some healthy payment to the bank where me and my older trucks etc are pocketing the money.



By the way the guy with 200k worth of equipment is probably grossing at least 750k a year in bussiness. When you think about it thats not much equipment. you buy a loader,dump truck, chipper, chip truck, service truck and stump grinder and your there. You got to spend $ to make $.


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## Ironxylem (Mar 22, 2007)

I run an 81 chevy 1 ton that I picked up at an old farmers auction for $600. If I was a little sharper it would of been $500. The advantage I got is Iam a licensed mechanic as well as a kerf hound. Not that you need a lot of mechanical inclination to work on those old girls. It needed Front brakes and an E-cable for safty. I,ve been running that truck for a year and a half now.
The first job I took it to it was paid for. As for cost of fuel, It's all local driving...don't worry about it. I would not trade that truck for a new one at half price.


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## woodchux (Mar 22, 2007)

If you've got the money go ahead and buy a newer truck. Keep that older one for a backup. I ran a 76 3500 when i first started out, and still use it sometimes.


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## arbor pro (Mar 22, 2007)

Crappy looking old equipment + crappy personal appearance = conveyance of poor professionalism = commands lower $

Good looking new equipment + crappy personal appearance = conveyance of good or poor professionalism depending on who your client is = commands moderate $

Crappy looking old equipment + clean personal appearance = conveyance of both poor or good professionalism depending on who your client is = commands moderate $

Good looking new equipment + clean personal appearance = conveyance of good professionalism = commands top $

Good looking old equipment + clean personal appearance = conveyance of good professinalism = commands moderate to possibly top $ but you may inevitably lose some work to the type of clients who get hung up on material things. 

If you're going to run older equipment, the key is to keep that equipment it tip-top shape and looking like it's new even if it's 10, 20 or even 40 years old. 

These first two photos are before and after shots of my 1990 F350 when I first bought it from another tree service that was going out of business. I spent a weekend and $500 fixing it up and giving it a paint job. The next two pics are of my 1995 F700 after I gave it the same kind of treatment. Before, I fixed it up, the chassis looked just as bad as the pickup and the cab guard was all bent up and rusty. The chipper in the third photo was given some much needed tlc and was repainted also. I recently sold it for $3000 more than I paid for it after having used it for 2 years. The last pic is of the 1983 F800 Crane/dump truck that I also recently sold. After fixing an oil leak, replacing a broken grill and fender and giving it a new paint job, I ran it hard for 3 years and then sold it for $4000 more than I paid for it. It was 24 years old, ran great and didn't have a scratch on it. (FYI- I sold the crane and chipper because I decided to scale down, NOT because I felt I needed to replace them with new).

Would anyone like to tell me that these pieces of equipment - 7, 12, 17, and 24 years old look unprofessional just because they're not new?


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## arbor pro (Mar 22, 2007)

Photos didn't attach with last post - sorry.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 22, 2007)

begleytree said:


> 1- No warranty - right, so if the alternator goes out, you pay $100 and take 30 minutes and replace it. with a new one, its going to sit in the shop parking lot a minimum of 1 day before it even goes in. why do they even have warranty? because new stuff breaks too. at least on an older truck, most issues are sorted out long ago.
> 
> 2- Already 16+ years old -you can't legally touch a woman until she's 18, so whats your point? see #1, #4 and #5
> 
> ...



Hey I couldn't agree with you more also a well taken care of antique appreciates, I have never seen a new truck do that. However it helps if you are mechanically inclined to help cut labor costs where you can . I can see that if you don't know a spark plug from an injector you may go new, my personal truck is newer; but my equipment older well maintained, paid for equipment. 
A good paint job covers a whole lot and I prefer diesels for longevity but a good gas burner is ok too


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## Timberhauler (Mar 22, 2007)

In the past,I would use a truck,then fix it up and sell it for a nicer one when I was ready..I haven't bought any trucks in a while,but I think I'm gonna quit selling them unless absolutely necessary.


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## juststumps (Mar 23, 2007)

my outfit gets a lot of feed back for the nice clean newer gear!!!!!!!

sorry to say,,,,,, you could lose jobs on presentation!!!!! or lack of!!!!


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## redprospector (Mar 23, 2007)

Haha, I've got some customers who think I'm over charging them if I show up in my Dodge/Cummins. And then there are those who thumb their nose at me if I show up in my 89 GMC. Go figure.  
I think the key is to be a man of your word, and do an excelent job. With good word of mouth they won't care what you drive.

I guess there are two kinds of people here. Those who support the new car dealers, and those who support the parts stores. :hmm3grin2orange: 

Andy


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## howel07264 (Mar 23, 2007)

*add a third to your list*



redprospector said:


> Haha, I've got some customers who think I'm over charging them if I show up in my Dodge/Cummins. And then there are those who thumb their nose at me if I show up in my 89 GMC. Go figure.
> I think the key is to be a man of your word, and do an excelent job. With good word of mouth they won't care what you drive.
> 
> I guess there are two kinds of people here. Those who support the new car dealers, and those who support the parts stores. :hmm3grin2orange:
> ...


Add a third type person to your list.
I think buying a late model USED is the best option.


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## redprospector (Mar 23, 2007)

My Dodge is my latest model, it's a 98. Hmm, that's 9 years old, not too late I guess.  It looks good though, and pulls even better.

I say drive what your comfortable paying for.

Andy


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## DWittenbreder (Apr 12, 2007)

*Dependability????*



jazak said:


> B (but theres ALOT more to it then what you have listed for B)....some of my reasons:
> 
> 1- No warranty
> 2- Already 16+ years old
> ...



I was reading this post and said to myself this sounds like someone from Jersey ("If it costs more it must be better") I spun wrenches for a tree Co. in Jersey for 5yrs.those guys could break water!! My boss had your attitude, can't tell you how it would piss me off to work your a** off on a piece of equipment, get it right and have him sell it for a new one. The guys wouldn't't be trained on it and I would have more Sh** to deal with. Old trucks are made stronger than new, hands down. But in this guys defense most garages in Jersey RAPE everyone that walks in the door, so buying new is sometimes a better option.


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## Mr. Firewood (Apr 12, 2007)

sure brought this one back from the dead


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## DWittenbreder (Apr 12, 2007)

*I'm opening a can!!!*



begleytree said:


> yup, dam, Jazak, you're just smarter than the rest of us poor idiots here.
> 
> guess Im stupid to take care of my equipment. should be more like you and just trash it, WTH? gonna buy another one soon anyway!
> 
> ...



Begely, this is the attitude with some people in Jersey,NYC!!! I came from a small town in Pa. to spin wrenches for a tree Co. in central/northern NJ. You should have seen the look on my face when I visited the local junk yard, They junk newer and nicer looking stuff than I was driving at the time. I think its a result of having what I call "stupid money"! WE had clients buy 1.2 mil. homes next to theirs, knock it down to get a bigger yard!!! NO KIDDING!!
So don't knock this guy its just how people are there(good for me I've gotten some great deals there!!!


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## Mr. Firewood (Apr 12, 2007)

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:


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