# One handing MS 200 = deep cut



## tree pro (Mar 25, 2005)

A guy I know, ISA certified, 12 year exp. excellent tree man, injured himself on Wednesday in Denver. He was grabbing a limb with one hand and cutting it with the other. While reaching over the bar of his saw, the tip came into contact with the trunk, kicked back a little, caught his sweater, ran up his forearm, and left a 3" deep, 7" long trench in his forearm.

After Surgery, repaired one tendon and muscle tissue. It appears as though it missed nerves, so recovery looks good.

OUCH!


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## Lumberjack (Mar 25, 2005)

He makes us one handers look bad.

Never reach over the bar, when in doubt use a sling! They are handy and cheap insurance!

Good luck to a speedy recovery!


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## Koa Man (Mar 25, 2005)

Lumberjack said:


> He makes us one handers look bad.
> 
> Never reach over the bar, when in doubt use a sling! They are handy and cheap insurance!



Excellent advice. That is what I always do! I see a lot of climbers reach over the bar, pretty scary to me.


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## mikey100b (Mar 25, 2005)

Why one hand a saw anyways, seems to me you are asking for trouble, I dont know anybody who can stop a kick back with one hand.

Hope the healing goes well.....................


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## chipper (Mar 25, 2005)

In many cases, one handing is the only option. If so, just use caution and never reach over the bar. Hell, I couldn't do half the work if I didn't one-hand.


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## clearance (Mar 25, 2005)

Cut with your left hand, chuck with your right. Now all the safety freaks are going to say "now look what happened". Had a talk with the guys about lowering wood (blocks, logs) out of the same tree you are tied into. We all one hand saws, bad, but we think that rigging of wood from the tree you are in is just retarded. Some people that never one hand do this stuff, can't figure that out.


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## Koa Man (Mar 26, 2005)

mikey100b said:


> I dont know anybody who can stop a kick back with one hand.



That is a true statement, however kickback will never occur if the tip of the bar does not hit another object. I have never had a kickback occur in over 20 years of using a chainsaw. I do know of people who had one occur (no injuries, thankfully) in the first week of using one (which is the most dangerous time, still learning). Avoiding kickback is easy, just watch where the tip of your bar is and where it is going at all times.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 26, 2005)

Koa Man said:


> I have never had a kickback occur in over 20 years of using a chainsaw.



Dang, I didn't wanna jinx myself by saying that! :alien:


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## underwor (Mar 26, 2005)

My onehanding event was my 5th year. Haven't repeated that mistake since, but have had it kick out of a stump, with both hands and get my chaps on time and kicked out when the log that was behind the one I was cutting touched the tip, did not have a tight grip with left hand, but did get it between the saw and me and only got a couple of knicks on the back of left hand, through my glove. Since then, I have never had a person show me a limb I could not cut with two hands on saw, if it was big enough to need a power saw, above about 3".


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 26, 2005)

chipper said:


> In many cases, one handing is the only option. If so, just use caution and never reach over the bar. Hell, I couldn't do half the work if I didn't one-hand.



I would say, in a few cases, most times a quick reposition will put you in the right spot to use both hands.

Clearance, your opinion of rigging off the spar is probably due to not having friction breaks available to you so the load can run and have the force disapate. I block out big wood on a regular basis.


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 26, 2005)

Rigging off the tree you're tied in to is most of the time the ONLY option with pines and poplars.


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## Koa Man (Mar 26, 2005)

Ryan Willock said:


> Rigging off the tree you're tied in to is most of the time the ONLY option with pines and poplars.



And palm trees!


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## Stumper (Mar 26, 2005)

Clearance, Sure is hard rigging out of the other trees when they are all 300feet away. You have your experience-just remember that it is limited.


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## clearance (Mar 27, 2005)

Guys, myself and others I know with many more years of removal experience have never lowered logs out of any tree we were tied in. If there is room we fall the logs onto the lawn or we push blocks onto the lawn. As for divots in the lawn, we are not landscapers, the owner fixes that. It is sadly true that an I.S.A. expert and author of a book on rigging died using his own tecniques to lower a log out of a pine tree. There are just to many variables to account for, the tree is not a steel spar tower, you really can't tell if it will take the shock or load. I have fallen 20ft logs 3ft thick out of trees, and the shock that comes up from the ground tells me I am doing whats best for me.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 27, 2005)

Boy, where did the ISA wrong you? Can you ever make a statement without beating up on the ISA?

The dismissive tone of your comment about my dear friend Pete is disrespectful. There were mistakes made that day. Learn from that. No one knows all of the details but we know the results. 

It sounds like you've never made a mistake or had an accident. Ever had an accident on your crew? Has your crew made a mistake? Put the stones down since no one lives in a glass house. 

It sounds like you can smash and bash the landscape. Most jobs won't allow that. Our clients don't allow us to wreck their homes. Since you work for the utility you have a barrier between what you do and the consumer. 

Rigging off the tree that the climber is tied into is a perfectly acceptable practice. Like John said, using rigging tools allows the load to be lowered carefully and controlled.


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 27, 2005)

clearance said:


> It is sadly true that an I.S.A. expert and author of a book on rigging died using his own tecniques to lower a log out of a pine tree.




Who was that?


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## NeTree (Mar 27, 2005)

clearance, when doing real tree work people call us because they DON'T want to have to fix divots in the lawn. (Not to mention sprinkler systems, septic tanks, etc...) What about trees overhanging houses? Just bomb chunks and let the carpenter fix them?


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## P_woozel (Mar 27, 2005)

Running a saw one handed is a high exposure practice. It is also often the only option, care should always be excercised, and probably numbers would say that eventually you will get cut after x times one handing. Tom, there is nothing wrong with beating up on the ISA, even more so because they have a man of you stature in the tre care community to stick up for them like some kind of Praetorien guard. Maybe some guys the only theing they get out of their yearly dues is the right to voice their perception of the organization they pay their hard earned moneyu to. :umpkin:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 27, 2005)

clearance said:


> Guys, myself and others I know with many more years of removal experience have never lowered logs out of any tree we were tied in. If there is room we fall the logs onto the lawn or we push blocks onto the lawn. As for divots in the lawn, we are not landscapers, the owner fixes that. It is sadly true that an I.S.A. expert and author of a book on rigging died using his own techniques to lower a log out of a pine tree. There are just to many variables to account for, the tree is not a steel spar tower, you really can't tell if it will take the shock or load. I have fallen 20ft logs 3ft thick out of trees, and the shock that comes up from the ground tells me I am doing whats best for me.


You make an excellent point. 
Every aspect of tree work has risk, and we need to evaluate every technique we use and determine if the benefit outweighs the risk. When it does not, we need to use a different method.
For me, knowing that injuries to the hands, arms and shoulders from one handing, are so high and the benefits are so low, I try to make an effort to simply keep both hands on the saw when cutting.
There are times when it's hard (I'm too lazy) to reposition, or production calls for one hand use of the saw, but they have become less and less frequent as I gain experience. 
As other older climbers will tell you, cuts are not the only injuries you will encounter from one handing. Many climbing carriers have ended from CTS, wrist, elbow and shoulder injuries.
I've been a long time advocate of rear handled saw use for climbers. Once you minimize one handed sawing, the advantages of top handled saws is gone. You've all seen the new Stihl 200 and Husky 336, which are now sporting rear handles for climbing. One of the large line companies is switching over for these safety reasons. The rear handle encourages you to work with two hands, which makes the climber feel slow and awkward at first, but like any other new technique he becomes good at it, and like it or not is safer.
As for bombing big wood on to the tree your tied into, I agree it has huge potential for danger. That risk can be reduced by pulley placement and redundancy, proper lowering techniques, minimizing load size, and among other things, careful tree inspection. By all means, use a separate rigging point when you can.



P_woozel said:


> Running a saw one handed is a high exposure practice. It is also often the only option...



I disagree. It is often the easiest option, but I would argue that it is not the only option.
We all have cameras, someone post a picture of a situation where one handed saw use is the only option. Even a drawing would help me understand, (we all have Paint on our computers).


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## P_woozel (Mar 27, 2005)

Mike, I should ahve said it is the nly option for many people. You are correct most times if not all body position can be changed to allow two handed operation. But one should never ignore that one handing is done frequently, and I think often without an understanding of what will go wrong if unaware. :umpkin:


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 27, 2005)

So, just because I ask why Clearance beats up the ISA at every chance it justifies the jabs? What a bunch of BS. If you read what I write there are a lot of other "sacred cows" that I talk about too. With your reasoning, if I didn't say something, then he wouldn't be justified. BS again. If someone makes a statement they should be required to back up what they say. Maybe their reasons don't seem valid but, if they're called on to back them up, they should. 

So...you think I'm being the body guard for he ISA? Not really, there are shortcomings and I've written about them. The constant slamming of anything related to the ISA gets old though. Beating up clearance just because he is a utility arbo gets old too. Just like any prejudice anyone can justify their response. 

If someone isn't happy with sending in dues, why do they do it? Vote with your pocket book. Or better, take the time to call the office and talk to someone in person about your frustrations. No one who reads this forum is going to change things. 

The ISA isn't a police organization. Just because someone passed the CA test or pays dues there is no reason that they will do proper treework. See the bias and prejudice? That's like saying all American-Poles are stupid and American-Swedes are reserved. Of all tree climbers are drunks. Maybe there are individuals who are stupid, reserved and drunks but does that mean that they are American/Polish/Swedish/tree climbers? Just to put the hoses on the flames, that's my ancestry and I'm going a little over the top.

If someone does bad work, call them on it. Don't expect some far-off organization to hold power over them.


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## P_woozel (Mar 27, 2005)

Tom go fly a kite, there is a vast difference in the treatment you would get in Illinois compared to the treatment I receive. The ISA isnt perfect far from it, they are pretty much the only game in town, Are their represenatives selective in their treatment of members yes they are. If you a a big nam4e, published etc everything is fine. If you are a regular feild guy maybe say asking for the shhet for ceu's they give you the third degree about how one has to attend the class, no ????. I dont think you realize there is a disparity between those who are published and the regular folks in the industry, remember that in the real world there are hundreds of guys at your level if not better, same with alot of the other industry mouths.  :blob5:


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## P_woozel (Mar 27, 2005)

this if off topic but who cares, case in point Tom, I'm sitting at an ISA booth volunterring like i have for 5 years now, and the other ISA rep is sitting next to me cutting articles out of the arborist news to read on the airplane. She flies alot I understsand. She keeps all the PHC stuff etc, she hand me the ones about basic rigging, knots etc. Her perception was that I was a climber so how could I possibly be interested in dendrology, entomology etc. not to mention the "rigging" articles were so fundamental it was stuff I knew about a decade ago. I find that frustrating. Ifind the ISA party line theme to be a bit old :umpkin:


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 27, 2005)

P,

I don't base what I say on how I'm treated. It's pretty rare that I call the office for anything. My basis is from talking with "regular feild guy"  and gals. When they call they get help. Maybe not at the level you might expect at Nordstroms of course. 

So, now I'm an "industry mouth" Come on, we'll go kit flying together 

If you're speaking from experience about poor treatment why didn't you get hold of Jim Skiera? He has a busy schedule but he's the top dog. If a client of yours has a problem do they talk to the groundcrew or the owner? Hopefully they don't just chip their teeth and crab about the work that you did and give you a bad rep.

Name an organization that you belong to. Now consider if that organization has faults or shortcomings. I bet so. What do you do about it? This isn't rhetorical, answer the question. 

Oh, and believe it or not, I'm not in the "ISA Cool Guy Club" What ever I might have to say carries little weight in Champaign.


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## P_woozel (Mar 27, 2005)

I like flying kites, youre welcome to come I usually do it in Westport, anytime its under a gale. Do I think the ISA needs to do a better job certinly who among us doesnt? I pay my dues not expecting much just showing solidarity, but at funtions I do expect a certain degree of respect from membership. Maybe I'm not paying enough. :umpkin:


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## clearance (Mar 27, 2005)

Tom-I mean absolutely no disrespect for the man who died. That is always very sad event and it really sucks. My point is that this happened to an expert who had enough rigging experience to write a book. I dont want to ever go there, just being a line clearance guy, not an arborist. Been on many res. jobs, it says right on the invoice "not responsible for damage to underground installations", people fix the divots cause the estimator tells them thats the deal.


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## Beast12 (Mar 27, 2005)

My dad was one handing a saw once and hit his middle finger. Chewed it up a bit but not too bad. You should have seen him "fly" out of the tree though! 

A chainsaw can make you A LOT of money, but if you are not careful it can hurt!  

-Matt


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## jmack (Apr 21, 2005)

clearance said:


> Guys, myself and others I know with many more years of removal experience have never lowered logs out of any tree we were tied in. If there is room we fall the logs onto the lawn or we push blocks onto the lawn. As for divots in the lawn, we are not landscapers, the owner fixes that. It is sadly true that an I.S.A. expert and author of a book on rigging died using his own tecniques to lower a log out of a pine tree. There are just to many variables to account for, the tree is not a steel spar tower, you really can't tell if it will take the shock or load. I have fallen 20ft logs 3ft thick out of trees, and the shock that comes up from the ground tells me I am doing whats best for me.


NYC baby! lowering is not an option, you will lower, size is not an option
yup


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## jmack (Apr 21, 2005)

rahtreelimbs said:


> Who was that?


]

Dr.Pete Donzelli


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## Tinwoodman (Apr 27, 2005)

I try not to bid on jobs that would require climbing and lowering-- but my practice is to tie stuff off to my truck or another tree so it won't fall toward the house, power line, etc. then hack it off. Then cut off small enough pieces. If you bid high enough and still get the job, you DO HAVE TIME to do things properly. Cut small pieces and throw them down to safety by hand. Cut them small enough to aim. Don't bid so low that you don't have time. There are plenty of jobs out there. Bid high. Yes, I'm a solo guy. Everything I do (well, usually) is by myself. I did have the owner of one property help me one time and he fell down and skinned his back. He's a friend of mine, so he wasn't upset, but I really don't want anyone around when I'm doing tree work.


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## Old Monkey (Apr 27, 2005)

I have no desire in starting up the old "one-hand" vs. "two-hand" argument, everybody knows what camp they're in. I am surprised and dismayed at how people use accidents to prove their point of view. It seems callous to me. I also find the "never rig off the tree you're tied into" thing a little bizarre. Me thinks clearance has never watched a good display of false crotching with a lowering device, stout ropes and a block. There is nothing fringe and/or radical about it. It's just another tool for an experienced climber to use. I think we all forget how varied tree work can be from location to location.


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## clearance (Apr 27, 2005)

N.Y.C. baby? B.C. sweetie. Nothing bizarre about never rigging logs or blocks from the tree you are tied into at all, just putting lives before lawns or plants. Old Monkey is right, I have never watched a display with false crotches and stout ropes, but I have cut down many big trees. The lowering device I use is called gravity. I only rig branches and Christmass tree sized tops. If you are using a "stout" rope then it must be a big log or top coming down with big forces involved that need a "stout" rope. We hang big tops that are way above the bucket with a short 1" bull rope, when it goes over and stops, the forces I see make me glad I'm not there. Why waste time, risk mayhem and the customers money if it is okay with them to just hammer it down? Example: Douglas fir over 100' in a backyard. Climb to the top rigging down branches that you cannot hold or just drop. Fast cut a little top, start cutting firewood with your 020, always dropping it in the same spot. After every piece your groundsman moves it and starts building walls, you pull up a bigger saw and keep cutting 16" pieces. After 20 or so pieces the spot is getting pounded into a hollow that tends to keep the pieces from rolling away. Fall as big of a buttlog a you can (sometime only 10'). Big pile of firewood, big dent in the lawn, couple of bags of topsoil and some lawnseed. I had to rig of little blocks (3') at the utility climbing course from a 90' fir, tied a false crotch with a biner, munter hitch, had my groundsman lower them. Over and over again, never ever been done on a utility removal job that anyone knows off here. I am sure our estimator has people ask that not a blade of grass is damaged, but when they hear what it would cost to rig everthing down vs. hammer it they must cringe and hold their nose. Mock if you want, that is the fastest way for the climber and the cheapest way for the customer.


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## Stumper (Apr 27, 2005)

Clearance , Your perspective is limited. I've bombed a lot of chunks-far more than I've rigged and lowered but.......Good grief.  When the tree goes through a hole in the roof-Rig! When the tree grows between two houses and the drop zone is so small that a single bounce or tiny roll will damage siding-Rig! When you have delicate plants worth thousands of dollars under the tree-Rig!. 

Edit: I had a semi cutesy insult to Clearance here. As he says in the following post there is no need to be insulting. I'm sorry.


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## clearance (Apr 27, 2005)

Stumper- whatever man. Thats what we do here, no need to be insulting. If you never rigged blocks or logs from the tree you were tied into, you would be good figuring out how to do it. Takes some balls and sometimes a lot of muscle, always some skill, and yes, occasionally, very rarely damage occurs.


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## Old Monkey (Apr 27, 2005)

Clearance, I worked for a lot of years just north of San Francisco in a place called Marin County. I very seldomly worked on flat ground. Most of the trees I did were on steep hillsides with homes below. Bombing stuff down is fun, but it is not always an option. What I was trying to get at is that everyone one of us works in our own little universe with its own distinct set of rules. Where I live now, I very rarely rig anything because its just to easy to cut and throw. You are trying to force the world you know onto everyone else, it doesn't work. If you lived in Marin County, CA I'm sure you would get quite proficient with technical rigging and wouldn't bat an eye at taking down a big doug fir or redwood of itself.


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## clearance (Apr 28, 2005)

Old M. I am not trying to force. I want people to remember that when they are rigging big stuff (logs, big tops etc.) they are dealing with forces that have the potential to fracture the stem they are in. We don't do it for reasons I have detailed, but if you do it, take a long look and be carefull. Good luck.


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## kf_tree (Apr 28, 2005)

clearance

your logic for bombing is seriuosly impaired, open your eyes to what can be done. how do you think people who work in city area's get the job done with out damage? logoic and skill will beat out balls and muscle every time.


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## murphy4trees (May 4, 2005)

I was watching the local tree butcher take down a couple medium large spruce trees yesterday. this is the same outfit that butcherred those sycamores I posted pics of a while back. The one big spruce was down to the spar, so I rolled the window down and asked the groundman if they were pruning the tree or taking it down...
Then today I drove by and they were bombing chunks down from a bucket truck... And I had the thought, or maybe it was even more subtle than a conscious thought, that this was "unrefined" or old school, something like that... Four years ago I wouldn't have thought twice... 
i guess I prefer to block down spars, cause when down properly it can be faster, more efficient, less effort for the climber and of course much easier on the landscape. that is of course to a point... once the wood gets big enough, blocking it down can be a major hastle, but for the size wood they were cutting and using a bucket, it would have been quick and easy.


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