# Square ground chisel chain vs. round ground chisel chain



## Clint C. (Dec 20, 2015)

I have been enjoying all of the comments and research done here so I finally am contributing some testing and information for others to comment on and use.

So guys I have seen and read about how square ground chisel chain was so much faster then round ground chisel chain. The information I was reading was showing the square ground chain was about 10-15% faster than the round ground chain (according to Madsen's website). Well, finally today (12-20-15) I decided to find out for myself.

For the test I used my almost brand new Husqvarna 562XPW with a 28" bar on a 20" fir log. I sharpened the two round ground chains with my Oregon 511 AX chain grinder. I have used this grinder for about 4-years and have a side business sharpening chains doing about 400-chains per year. 

I tested three different chains all were 3/8" pitch and .050" guage. The first chain tested was an Oregon full-skip chisel chain round ground by me. The second chain tested was a Stihl full-skip chisel chain round ground by me. The third chain tested was a brand new Stihl full-skip chisel chain square ground.

So here were the results:
-Oregon full-skip chisel chain round ground. 1st cut=18.45 seconds, 2nd cut =17.19 seconds / *average time was 17.82 seconds. *(I only did two cuts with this chain vs. the others I did five cuts)
-Stihl full-skip chisel chain round ground. 1st cut =17.92 seconds, 2nd cut=17.65, 3rd cut =17.40 seconds, 4th cut =18.70, 5th cut =18.50 seconds / *average time was 18.03 seconds.*
-Stihl full-skip chisel chain square ground brand new. 1st cut =18.74 seconds, 2nd cut =17.32 seconds, 3rd cut =16.05 seconds, 4th cut =15.09 seconds, 5th cut =16.32 seconds / *average time was 16.70 seconds.*

As you can see the square ground is faster but not as fast as I thought it would be. The square ground was faster than the other two but not by much at all. I did the math and the Stihl square ground chain was only 8% faster than the Stihl round ground chain. 

I am wanting to justify buying a $1,000 new Simington square chain grinder from Madsen's (Silvey is now out of business and I do not want to buy a used Silvey as parts will be scarce real quick). I really wanted that square ground chain to beat the others by a wide margin. To me the 8% faster does not justify the purchase of a new $1,000 Simington square chain grinder.

Clint


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## 1270d (Dec 20, 2015)

New chains are dull

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Clint C. (Dec 20, 2015)

1270d said:


> New chains are dull
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the reply. So you think that a Simington square grinder would make that brank new Stihl square ground chisel chain sharper? I definitely know that Oregon chain can be made sharper then when it is new but I do not know about the Stihl chain. They do pretty darn good on their factory sharpness.


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## Philbert (Dec 20, 2015)

Welcome to A.S.!

There are guys here in some of the square filing threads who might be able to 'tune up' your square chains for the cost of shipping, or a modest amount more. It would be a small investment compared to a new Simington grinder. Make sure that they grind the chain, instead of filing it, to get the comparison you want.

How much of an improvement in speed would you need to justify your purchase? Or would you justify it by square grinding chains for others?

Philbert


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## I'llbearealclimberoneday (Dec 21, 2015)

Interesting results.

The edge on square ground chains is all over the map out of the box. Much more so than with round IME. I don't really know of any companies out here running square if your looking to add it to your business. Seems most of them on this side use shop ground blue chains or new guy file attempts. Being harder to hand file, more temperamental and less favorable in dirty conditions, it would be hard to guess how long it would take to recoupe your initial expense.

I love my 562xp and my 511ax. 

I'm about 20 minutes up the 205 from you


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2015)

get a square grind dialed in right and it will blow away round grind, you have to maintain rider depth, and angles though, so it takes a little more patience but you get a better result in the end.


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## Clint C. (Dec 21, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Welcome to A.S.!
> 
> There are guys here in some of the square filing threads who might be able to 'tune up' your square chains for the cost of shipping, or a modest amount more. It would be a small investment compared to a new Simington grinder. Make sure that they grind the chain, instead of filing it, to get the comparison you want.
> 
> ...



I was expecting a noticeable difference in the feel and speed of the cut not just on the clock. I was really hoping for say a 15-20% faster cut with the square ground.


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## Clint C. (Dec 21, 2015)

I'llbearealclimberoneday said:


> Interesting results.
> 
> The edge on square ground chains is all over the map out of the box. Much more so than with round IME. I don't really know of any companies out here running square if your looking to add it to your business. Seems most of them on this side use shop ground blue chains or new guy file attempts. Being harder to hand file, more temperamental and less favorable in dirty conditions, it would be hard to guess how long it would take to recoupe your initial expense.
> 
> ...



I hear ya on the harder to hand file and less stay sharp ability in dirty conditions. 

I am glad I did the comparison for my own knowledge. Like I said in my initial post I hear all the time how good, fast and amazing square ground is. I have to tell you though in the cut the square ground did not feel any faster then the round ground at all. On the clock it was faster but really it was only like 7.6% faster. I mean if the square chain is only 7.6% faster how can anyone really tell that little of a difference. 

I really want that new Simington square grinder but the $1,000 and all the other stuff that goes with a square grind (separate tool to grind out the gullets occasionally, separate tool to grind down the depth gauges occasionally) vs. that Oregon 511AX is awesome and does it all with just a changing of the wheel for the depth gauges. 

Speaking about that Oregon 511AX when I switch from left handed cutters to right handed cutters I take an extra 20-seconds and adjust it slightly (my machine naturally wants to cut the right handed cutters about .010" shorter than the left handed cutters) so I get the left and right handed cutters within .002" of each other using a digital dial caliper.

Thanks for the comment,

Clint


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 21, 2015)

Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,


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## Clint C. (Dec 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,



Excellent point. I know that if you took a round ground and tried to bore it into a tree it is fighting you hard. In my test the square ground chain did feel slightly smoother than the round ground. 

I mainly cut firewood and most of it has been drug around the mud, dirt and rocks. I hear that the square ground really gets dull quickly compared to the round ground when cutting in dirty conditions. Do you know if it is a huge difference in stay sharp ability between the two types?

Thanks for your response,

Clint


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## KenJax Tree (Dec 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,


If you run Husky's vibration isn't an issue[emoji57]

I look at it like this....square chain might be faster 20% but if it takes 20% longer to file and needs sharpened 20% more often( i cut dirty wood) i'm 20% slower.


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## Clint C. (Dec 21, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> If you run Husky's vibration isn't an issue[emoji57]
> 
> I look at it like this....square chain might be faster 20% but if it takes 20% longer to file and needs sharpened 20% more often( i cut dirty wood) i'm 20% slower.



Exactly right but man I really want that Simington square grinder. 

Thanks,
Clint


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2015)

Clint C. said:


> Excellent point. I know that if you took a round ground and tried to bore it into a tree it is fighting you hard. In my test the square ground chain did feel slightly smoother than the round ground.
> 
> I mainly cut firewood and most of it has been drug around the mud, dirt and rocks. I hear that the square ground really gets dull quickly compared to the round ground when cutting in dirty conditions. Do you know if it is a huge difference in stay sharp ability between the two types?
> 
> ...



Yes. There is a difference. Round file is the chain type used on the landings around here because it holds up better in dirty wood, is easily filed back to sharp out in the woods, and can take the abuse of the rigging rats. One chaser was puzzled though. He said, "I send the saw down with a sharp chain and it always comes back with a dull chain." They used round file on that saw.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 21, 2015)

If the wood is that dirty ,change the top plate to 10-15 degrees ,and it will last longer at a sacrifice of some speed ,landing saws are round mainly because they can touch up the chain easier with a round file ,which is easier for most .


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 21, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> If you run Husky's vibration isn't an issue[emoji57]
> 
> I look at it like this....square chain might be faster 20% but if it takes 20% longer to file and needs sharpened 20% more often( i cut dirty wood) i'm 20% slower.


I bet my rubber mounted saws with square have less vibration than a husky with round ,i have had 372 and 395 huskies ,and currently have a 441 spring saw ,the engines bounce around inside the handle so much ,they remind me of one of those gold mine machines bouncing around shaking the gold out of the dirt .


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 21, 2015)

My take on chain 
Here is a couple demo links to help explain what i have found works for me .
Here is a good .404 work chain that lasts ,notice the top plate is close to 15 or so degrees ,and if you look at the side plate ,it is darn near up and down ,no hook or very little side plate hook ,what this seems to do is cut vs tear the fibers of the wood ,when you tear ,that is grabby ,which vibrates worse and does not bore as good ,this also allows you to run the rakes higher which aids to more smooth also 





Here is a round .404 ,if you look at the side plate ,it has more curve or hook ,this hook shape will grab harder ,thus vibrate more by being grabby , the top corner is also more pointed which is fragile compared to the photos above so dirt will take out the corner a little faster in my opinion .


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## fool skip (Dec 21, 2015)

If you cut logs for a living, square ground or filed chisel is the only way to go. A properly set up grinder will add 15 to 20% production increase. You'll get straighter bucking cuts and you won't get your nuts kicked if you have to cut a jack hole or do a lot of boring. Round file is fine for the landing and firewood. Out of dozens of fallers I've worked with I've only seen two guys who were exceptional at filing square chisel. Both of them switched hands to file the off side, something I could never do.


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## Philbert (Dec 21, 2015)

fool skip said:


> If you cut logs for a living, square ground or filed chisel is the only way to go. A properly set up grinder will add 15 to 20% production increase. You'll get straighter bucking cuts and you won't get your nuts kicked if you have to cut a jack hole or do a lot of boring.


I understand the speed increase. Please explain why square ground/filed chain would cut straighter.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## fool skip (Dec 21, 2015)

Philbert said:


> I understand the speed increase. Please explain why square ground/filed chain would cut straighter.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert


I've noticed round chain seems to wander around more on big cuts. Try matching three or four bucking cuts with a 36" bar on a big butt cut and you will see what I mean. This has been my experience, yours may vary.


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## CR888 (Dec 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,


So true this post, the trouble making chain choices based on reading the innernets is everyone is only interested in what the fastest chain is, not what is the smoothest or best for a particular application. Where l come from semi chisel wins hands down at the end of the day speed wise, despite it being the slowest cookie cutting chain.


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## Philbert (Dec 21, 2015)

fool skip said:


> I've noticed round chain seems to wander around more on big cuts. Try matching three or four bucking cuts with a 36" bar on a big butt cut and you will see what I mean. This has been my experience, yours may vary.


Never had a problem with the chain wandering if it was sharpened uniformly, and if the bar was in good shape (square rails, groove not worn out, etc.). I've seen a lot of hand filed chains where the cutters on one side were different lengths or angles than those on the other side.

Philbert


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## madhatte (Dec 21, 2015)

I would hazard the guess that square seems to cut straighter specifically because it's almost always ground rather than filed. Consistency means consistency, if you catch my meaning. A good round ground chain cuts well.


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## bnmc98 (Dec 22, 2015)

Clint C. said:


> So here were the results:
> -Oregon full-skip chisel chain round ground. 1st cut=18.45 seconds, 2nd cut =17.19 seconds / *average time was 17.82 seconds. *(I only did two cuts with this chain vs. the others I did five cuts)
> -Stihl full-skip chisel chain round ground. 1st cut =17.92 seconds, 2nd cut=17.65, 3rd cut =17.40 seconds, 4th cut =18.70, 5th cut =18.50 seconds / *average time was 18.03 seconds.*
> -Stihl full-skip chisel chain square ground brand new. 1st cut =18.74 seconds, 2nd cut =17.32 seconds, 3rd cut =16.05 seconds, 4th cut =15.09 seconds, 5th cut =16.32 seconds / *average time was 16.70 seconds.*



Not to be a jerk, but I never understood how timing cuts can be accurate, especially down to .01 seconds.
To me unless you have a machine that applies the same pressure for every cut with the same drop speed of the saw, then there's the whole chain sharpening thing. I don't see how it really can be a comparison.
Human error factor.


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## Clint C. (Dec 22, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Not to be a jerk, but I never understood how timing cuts can be accurate, especially down to .01 seconds.
> To me unless you have a machine that applies the same pressure for every cut with the same drop speed of the saw, then there's the whole chain sharpening thing. I don't see how it really can be a comparison.
> Human error factor.



I agree with you 100% but my test was one of the best I have seen done. I would love to see a test done by real engineers at Oregon or Stihl using machines providing exact pressure and an exact timing methods. I guess in my particular case I only did it to see for myself what the real deal was with square ground chain and I wanted to post it so other folks could use it for whatever.

It seems like a lot of people talk about how good square chisel is and I have seen very, very few tests showing if it is really fast.


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## Philbert (Dec 22, 2015)

You have to have calibrated, instrumented machines in a controlled test environment, to get highly accurate, precise results. This includes identical test wood! But if you make _lots_ of cuts, multiple trials, side-by-side, with the same saw, same operator, etc., you can get some reasonable feedback. I have noted significant performance differences doing this, although, I did not try to quantify them to multiple decimal places. At GTG races, it is often more about the technique than the saw or the chain!

Philbert


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 25, 2015)

Round filed isfaster than square, because it takes alot less time to file.
Also, just by virtue of having a square chain doesn't mean its faster. Its more about the guy doing the filing.
Just because I have a 3120 doesn't mean someone cant beat me with their 372.


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## Philbert (Dec 25, 2015)

It's hip to be square . . . . 

Philbert


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## catbuster (Dec 28, 2015)

I use semi-(round) chisel chain. I don't keep a chain grinder with me, or even on the truck. I carry a file and a raker gauge, take a couple strokes per cutter and knock the rakers down every once in a while. A square chain *does*, unquestionably cut better. But when I cut blowdown and bulldozed logs in dirty areas I can't lose my working corner with every cut-which is what I was doing when I tried square. And... Don't even think about bringing square on the fire line. If not being able to take a hazard tree down due to a dull chain is your cup of tea... I guess be my guest, but you won't work long. 

In regards to boring cuts... I say man up, trade your Victoria's Secret thongs for some Hanes boxer briefs and go to work instead of bellyaching about it. 

Sincerely, 

Everyone's favorite multi-faceted business owner,

The Cat


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## Jim Timber (Dec 28, 2015)

Square has better edge support, since all else is equal on the tooth profile itself with round full chisel. The hollow profile of round ground leaves a very sharp edge with a thinner cross section that's easier to roll over (dull). Once the edge is rolled, the cutter is ripping instead of slicing at the fibers and the performance suffers.

Square ground leaves a thicker edge at it's point, which has more support behind it so it doesn't roll over as easily. This is why they stay sharper longer and seem to perform better; because to the user, they do.

Semi-chisel is a work around to the problem of the tip going dull on round ground full chisel: remove that weak point with a radius. The resulting cutter isn't as aggressive in pulling into the fibers, but that tip also doesn't roll over at the first sign of dirt either. So it too stays sharper longer.

Think of it like a bush knife vs a scalpel. The bush knife can be made plenty sharp, and it's thick blade will keep an edge with a decent amount of chopping. The scalpel can be made very sharp, but as soon as you mash it into something hard it's going to be duller than the bush knife.


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