# Time For a Change



## bootboy (Dec 4, 2013)

So I've been doing removals and pruning on and off on my own for about 2 years now. I'm looking to get a little more big league about this but I'm not sure where to start. I get to watching videos of the guys like Reg Coates who contract climb and make a good living in places like Vancouver. I find myself extremely jealous of the lifestyle that guys like that have. I enjoy my current job in healthcare and plan to continue part time on that route to keep my benefits (something that seems like your lucky to have any more). But I'd like to spend more time doing something I really like doing: working in trees. I am however not ISA certified, but I'd sure like to be.

My climbing skills are nothing spectacular but I can get around a tree safely. I've done a fair amount of rigging but nothing crazy. I've gained some valuable experience but I'm just not able to maintain a higher work volume. I'm also limited by my equipment. I can't afford the capital to invest in a full blown tree care setup. While I am a registered business and carry a liability policy for my work, I end up turning down a lot of work because of my lack of resources. I'm the most organized guy in the world, and I'm not a huge risk taker when it comes to finances and business. I'm just looking to up my game so I can get to do more of what I love while I'm young. 

I'm not interested in responses from people who will just tell me that this line of work isn't for me, that it's hard, that it doesn't pay well, etc... I've done enough of this to realize what's involved, so spare me the reality checks.

I'm not looking to get shot down, so unless you have something positive to contribute, move on.

Your thoughts? I would even consider moving to another state for seasonal work if I needed. 

I'm in UT so if anyone can give me more guidance I'd appreciate it.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 4, 2013)

You're far too green to cut it as a contract climber so put that thought out of your head. Only other option would be to get some equipment and get rolling. No need to quit your day job to do that. At least not until you have a strong client list. Buy a one ton and chipper and take on the jobs you can handle evenings and weekends, walk from those you can't.


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## Zale (Dec 4, 2013)

You say its time for a change but you are keeping your daytime job. You need to chose. If you want to do work like Reg, thats a full time commitment.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 4, 2013)

What is your biggest hurdle on a day to day? Tackle that first. Is it materiel handling? Then do like Blakes said. But don't go and buy a brand new this or that. Equipment does not make you a rock star, the quality of work does. Is it skill? Then I would go after the CA and read up as much as you can. The more knowledge you have in ur brain the better and its much cheaper and way more important than equipment. Shigo, Harris, Dirr, etc, their books are on Amazon and are super cheap and will help you alot. Confidence? Experience is the only cure for that. If you have the skill, knowledge and confidence then you should be able to tackle any job, no matter your equipment as you can pretty much rent anything out there when ya need it.


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## bootboy (Dec 5, 2013)

I know I'm no Reg, I just mentioned him because he has been an inspiration to me. I know Ive got a ways to go before I can even think about contract climbing, but I'm a fast learner and ropes are second nature to me. I'd like to get there someday. I've rigged out 100' tall cottonwoods over decks, blocked down 100'+ pines and firs into tight spaces. I've taken my time to make sure I'm doing it right. I'm not into heroics and I've been known to climb down, take a good look at what I'm doing from different angles, and change my game plan. I eat up anything I can read about tree work, specifically rigging. I bend the ears of crews I see working locally and I sit and watch for hours.

I know that it may boil down to simply making a choice. Maybe I can't have my cake and eat it too. But at this point it would sure be hard to walk away from my fledgling retirement plan and my benefits at my hospital job.

At this point I do lack investment capital. I have a 1/2 ton truck, a 7'x12' dump trailer, a grundle of climbing and rigging gear, and a small family of saws, a reasonable head on my shoulders, intuition for the physics and a love of the work. 

Getting a chipper would require me to sell my truck and get a 1 ton box that I'd have no place to park. I just feel like making the next move as far as expanding my own outfit would require me to go all out. I feel like each upgrade required the next to justify.

Would you recommend looking for part-time work with a local crew? I applied with one local outfit but the were staffed with unsavory characters that I wasn't particularly interested in working with. I guess I should start making more phone calls to try and find a local company that I get get good vibes from.

Thanks for your input.


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## RDAA (Dec 5, 2013)

I feel for ya. I'm in about the same boat and really wanting to pull the trigger on the full time gig. I'm set up pretty well. I own a 1 ton dump, chipper, grinder, bucket, climbing gear, dump trailer, skid steer, backhoe, and a couple of other trucks. I only owe about 6-8 thousand to the bank. I really enjoy this kind of work. I have grossed about 100k each of the last two years and it looks like I am going to turn a profit this year of about 30,000 bucks. Around here that's borderline able to make a living. My government job is good with the bennies, but sucks for the pay, the people suck and the work sucks. I think about how much id rather be out there working for myself every day. The only reason it hasn't happened is I am the bearer of the benefits for the wife and the five and nine year old. She has a possibility of getting a job here shortly with insurance so we'll see what happens. I'd say go for it you will never know if it works out or not if you never try.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 5, 2013)

bootboy said:


> intuition for the physics and a love of the work.


With that, you are ahead of the game. Probably would be a good idea to get on with another crew, a good one. Find the top, most arrogant guy ya can, beg him to let you join. The good outfits are real funny on who they bring in, don't wanna train your competition, believe me, I know. Convince him your legit and want to learn it the right way. I worked over my edumacatur for a few weeks before he got tired of me and showed on a job and said "grab your saddle" Don't ever say, "well, I do it this way" You will be shot off like a rocket. Listen and watch and be thankful someone is teaching you the way of the Jedi. Your techniques may work fine, but your there to learn the "tricks"


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## bootboy (Dec 5, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> With that, you are ahead of the game. Probably would be a good idea to get on with another crew, a good one. Find the top, most arrogant guy ya can, beg him to let you join. The good outfits are real funny on who they bring in, don't wanna train your competition, believe me, I know. Convince him your legit and want to learn it the right way. I worked over my edumacatur for a few weeks before he got tired of me and showed on a job and said "grab your saddle" Don't ever say, "well, I do it this way" You will be shot off like a rocket. Listen and watch and be thankful someone is teaching you the way of the Jedi. Your techniques may work fine, but your there to learn the "tricks"




I like the sound of that. 

By not saying "well, I do it this way" I assume you mean telling them that after they've told me how to do something right?

I'd like to be able to say to them first: " I've learned to do this this way, but is there a better way? Or a technique that you would use instead? If so, show me." By saying it that way, I'm able to show them that I have knowledge and experience and that I may already know how to do it, but that I'm also willing to learn a better way. Is that reasonable?

Its just so hard to find a balance between showing them that they don't have to babysit you and acting like you know it all, ya know?

I know that there is such a thing as paying your dues, i.e.: dragging brush and menial tasks but I feel there's a lot of guys who drag brush and wash trucks who have no ambition to ever climb or rig, to them it's just a job. That's not me.

Do I make it clear to any prospective employer/climbing mentor/Jedi that that's how I feel? I'd hate to come across as cocky and appearing to think I can just jump in midway up the ladder so to speak. Is it unreasonable for me to expect them to recognize the fact that I do come with some skill and experience? I'd like to able to articulate to them that I have ambition and that I'm there to be the best I can be. I just feel like its a fine line between coming across as some joker who is just fine doing sh*t work so long as I get a paycheck, and overstating my experience and coming across as cocky, ya know? I know that with any outfit you'll start at the bottom, but I'd like to approach it in such a way that will get me on a faster track toward being where I want to be.

I suppose that simply demonstrating that I have ambition to learn by constantly asking for guidance while also showing that I have a knack for it will expedite the whole process 

Thanks for your help so far beans.

Any other tips?


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## Pelorus (Dec 5, 2013)

Consider getting ISA Certified. Yeah, it is only a paper credential, but it can show a prospective tree co. that you seriously have your head in the game, and this is more than just a hobby or passing fad.


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## bootboy (Dec 5, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Consider getting ISA Certified. Yeah, it is only a paper credential, but it can show a prospective tree co. that you seriously have your head in the game, and this is more than just a hobby or passing fad.




I've heard some guys on here knock anybody who does the self study route for their CA.

The only formal program around here to get your CA is a year long, full time apprenticeship through a local university that comes with a handful of other superfluous certs. I simply don't have the time.

Will my CA be considered legit by a reputable outfit if I go the self study route?


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 5, 2013)

I am a tree guy looking to get into health care ! I would rather deliver babies then have to freeze or fry my ass off behind a chipper or in a tree ! Wanna switch professions ! I would even shave and shower for a good inside profession .


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## jbarth636 (Dec 5, 2013)

Haha, I hear ya tree climber. I have a bachelors degree in business management and I run a tree service in my area. Somedays I wake up and theres 5 pieces of equipments broken and I go get covered in grease, dirt, and sawdust and wonder WTF Im doing ! Tree work isnt too bad, but I sure hate the 100+ days and the 12 degree days. Seems like the work gets cheaper and cheaper in the last few years but the cost keeps going up. Im sure you could easily find things to complain about with another job just the same... its a constant battle!


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't know about that . My brother chose to be a nurseryman he decided to tell me that xs are tough for him .... He's only been hunting 3xs off his property this season because the deer are eating his stock . I laughed in his face . Am supposed to feel bad


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## tree MDS (Dec 5, 2013)

"Any other tips"? 

Yes: avoid coming at the boss and interfering his thought processes with anything that starts like "can I make a suggestion", or "what if we.." or "how about if we". Those kind are the absolute worst!!! Nothing wrong with wanting to learn, just don't be annoying about it!!


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 5, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> "Any other tips"?
> 
> Yes: avoid coming at the boss and interfering his thought processes with anything that starts like "can I make a suggestion", or "what if we.." or "how about if we". Those kind are the absolute worst!!! Nothing wrong with wanting to learn, just don't be annoying about it!!


I have something to add to that thought ! If he appears to be hung over just shut the **** up and say nothing . A single "trigger" word may constitute in immediate punishment


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## tree MDS (Dec 5, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> I have something to add to that thought ! If he appears to be hung over just shut the **** up and say nothing . A single "trigger" word may constitute in immediate punishment



Lol. "What if we just.."


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 5, 2013)

What if we just ?!? Say another word and I will throw a running chainsaw at your face ! I heard that once . Also heard if you don't help I am gonna tie the rope around your throat and let him cut his branch ! My favorite


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## tree MDS (Dec 5, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> What if we just ?!? Say another word and I will throw a running chainsaw at your face ! I heard that once . Also heard if you don't help I am gonna tie the rope around your throat and let him cut his branch ! My favorite



It is funny, but I'm serious too!! Nothing more annoying that trying to tell somebody what to do, and getting interrupted mid sentence with "do you want me to..". What I want you to do is shut the **** up, so I can tell your useless, greenhorn ass what to do!!! "Suggestion guys", is what I call em. Grr..


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## Pelorus (Dec 5, 2013)

bootboy said:


> Will my CA be considered legit by a reputable outfit if I go the self study route?



If a pair of identical twins walked in, and I only had time to interview one of them, the one with the CA logo would get the nod. It may help you get a foot in the door, but that door will slam hard in yer beak if you can't demonstrate you are up to the work. Had a guy work for me once who had all the credentials, incl. a forestry tech. diploma, and he would sometimes pull off the most incredibly dumb fool stuff that cost me money. I'd come home all pissed off, and tell the wife: "I've gotta fire Andy". She would feel sorry for poor ole Andy, and sweet talk me into keeping him on. This went on and on all summer till work dried up in the late Fall, and he landed himself a high paying job with Hydro One. Where you can get away with doing stupid stuff, I guess, cause there is a Union to protect you. But I digress...


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## Pelorus (Dec 5, 2013)

Point being, if you can find a employer with a kind and compassionate wife, then there might be hope for you.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 5, 2013)

I haven't kept an exact percentage count, but I am fairly sure that less than 50% of these threads I've read and followed have resulted in the OP not winding up as a logger, climber, arborist etc. And that's not taking into account guys you never hear from again. Good luck, keep your priorities in order, move carefully


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 5, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> It is funny, but I'm serious too!! Nothing more annoying that trying to tell somebody what to do, and getting interrupted mid sentence with "do you want me to..". What I want you to do is shut the **** up, so I can tell your useless, greenhorn ass what to do!!! "Suggestion guys", is what I call em. Grr..


Greenhorn never liked that word .


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 6, 2013)

bootboy said:


> I'd like to be able to say to them first: " I've learned to do this this way, but is there a better way? Or a technique that you would use instead? If so, show me." By saying it that way, I'm able to show them that I have knowledge and experience and that I may already know how to do it, but that I'm also willing to learn a better way. Is that reasonable?
> 
> Its just so hard to find a balance between showing them that they don't have to babysit you and acting like you know it all, ya know?



Proof is in the puddin. Never tell them that you can do all this or all that. Let them know your experience, then let your performance do the talking. If you go in and say that you can do this or that, you will set a high expectation and may disgruntle the crew. Then, if you don't meet and exceed that expectation, you will look like a aas. I have had several guys tell me that they where super stars. And maybe, where they came from, they where, but not in my eyes. I get them in a tree or its a groundie, and right away, I can tell they have never been taught the way of the force. Most guys who do this, have not, even tho they are convinced they are. If anything, they are pro novices. Blakes describes this best with his sig "Some guys have 20yrs exp, some guys have 1 yr, 20 times" lots of truff to dat. Listen to what the these other guys are saying. Don't interrupt them while they are trying to explain it to ya and never say, "what if we did it this way" They will take that as a challenge to their skill, your there to learn, not debate. Your techniques maybe fine, but your not there to teach them. Most salty guys have done it every which way and know the ones they like. Their show, their sig on the check, do it their way. There are many ways to skin a cat, Jedi have their way because experience has shown them what works best and when for them. One style maybe a fav for one guy, another way for another guy. From one job to another, it may change, roll with it and listen. Take me, I prefer slings and biners over knots, the next guy may only use knots. I can tie all the knots, no diff than the other guy getting how to use slings and biners. Both are fine. The idea is to learn from those who possess the skills you want. Learn from as many Jedi as possible, then take all the knowledge you have learned, pick out the stuff that suits you best and then you can start to form your own style and techniques. But try to retain all that you have learned. That little trick you seen one guy use on a really unique situation may not be needed again for years, but when it does present itself again, that little trick can make a hard job easy. Get the CA, not aware of any formal org that does not recognize a ISA cert as legit. Some guys hate it, but that on the individual. All big shows and gov agency's recognize it. Most large private outfits do as well. The tool box on top of your shoulders is the most important one. The Jedi will recognize that they do or don't need to babysit you pretty quick, so let your performance do the talking. Mouth shut unless asked, work harder than the other guys. If your boss is sweating, and your not...............


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## treeseer (Dec 8, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Proof is in the puddin. Never tell them that you can do all this or all that. Let them know your experience, then let your performance do the talking. If you go in and say that you can do this or that, you will set a high expectation and may disgruntle the crew. Then, if you don't meet and exceed that expectation, you will look like a aas. I have had several guys tell me that they where super stars. And maybe, where they came from, they where, but not in my eyes. I get them in a tree or its a groundie, and right away, I can tell they have never been taught the way of the force. Most guys who do this, have not, even tho they are convinced they are. If anything, they are pro novices. Blakes describes this best with his sig "Some guys have 20yrs exp, some guys have 1 yr, 20 times" lots of truff to dat. Listen to what the these other guys are saying. Don't interrupt them while they are trying to explain it to ya and never say, "what if we did it this way" They will take that as a challenge to their skill, your there to learn, not debate. Your techniques maybe fine, but your not there to teach them. Most salty guys have done it every which way and know the ones they like. Their show, their sig on the check, do it their way. There are many ways to skin a cat, Jedi have their way because experience has shown them what works best and when for them. One style maybe a fav for one guy, another way for another guy. From one job to another, it may change, roll with it and listen. Take me, I prefer slings and biners over knots, the next guy may only use knots. I can tie all the knots, no diff than the other guy getting how to use slings and biners. Both are fine. The idea is to learn from those who possess the skills you want. Learn from as many Jedi as possible, then take all the knowledge you have learned, pick out the stuff that suits you best and then you can start to form your own style and techniques. But try to retain all that you have learned. That little trick you seen one guy use on a really unique situation may not be needed again for years, but when it does present itself again, that little trick can make a hard job easy. Get the CA, not aware of any formal org that does not recognize a ISA cert as legit. Some guys hate it, but that on the individual. All big shows and gov agency's recognize it. Most large private outfits do as well. The tool box on top of your shoulders is the most important one. The Jedi will recognize that they do or don't need to babysit you pretty quick, so let your performance do the talking. Mouth shut unless asked, work harder than the other guys. If your boss is sweating, and your not...............


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## treeseer (Dec 8, 2013)

Self-study is an excellent way to get ready for CA, and CA is an excellent step in the journey to grow as an arborist. I got CA in 1992 and quit doing free estimates. I got BCMA in 2004 and raised my rate 50%, and still stay plenty busy.

As for growing your business, first: What do you want to do? It's possible to run a business from a van, if your business is mostly pruning and PHC. If your passion is really about rigging, then you need a good groundie and more gear for removal work.


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## treevet (Dec 8, 2013)

location location location...or as Sam Kinneson said to the Indian people that are starving..."MOVE WHERE THE FOOD IS!!" If you are gonna start a tree biz, move to a nice upper middle class residential community, get your kids in the school and support and coach teams and you will soon be doing work for fellow residents...if you don't suck. Finance some nice used equipment and pay it off and then get more. A CA is mandatory. I passed without studying in '92 also. Read voraciously. Very easy if you get fixated on your profession and dedicate most of your time to it. You have to LOVE it. You have to be able to handle ANYTHING the giant companies handle be it any aspect of tree care or any removal anywhere anytime. Don't go work for someone and secretly get them to teach you everything, then bail out and become their competition...they will hate you, you will hate yourself.


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## lxt (Dec 8, 2013)

2 years & part time = a long way to go! The day in & day out grind of tree work may have you wanting more hours at the hospital? a CA credential is ok but having the SKILL & ability to do the work aloft by climbing or out of a bucket is worth more any day!!!!!!

the guy who would give a nod to one with a CA while the other doesnt have one is someone who needs to interview a little more, I know plenty of people with a CA, utility specialist cert, etc... & they have never been in a tree, the idea & thought of doing it is what appeals to them atleast most anyway, once they try it they usually go back to permitting work!!! some times the guy with no paper to his name is the harder worker & because he feels he needs to be to make up for the lack of being certified, so be carefful on which horse you have pull the cart

as for thinking that Certs will enable you to charge for estimates & raise your rates???? that will depend on your area & competitive base!!! chances are the Certs will not do much more for you BUT..........attaining the skills & knowledge from a good teacher will be far more priceless the Certs are only icing on the cake & mean nothing without the prior!

Good Luck

LXT.....


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 9, 2013)

Word, not to many things bug me more than a CA that cant tie in. That's why I think prac app should be part of the test. But that's a whole different discussion. Don't go get the CA and think that's it, its not.I know a few CA's here locally, that still really have no clue, constantly getting told horror story's of how they work and I see the work they do and it sucks. But, because they have the CA, people think they know it all, and they don't. Not that I know it all either, I definitely don't, but I do know what is going on in the field. Paper and shiny trucks don't make ya a good Arb, the work that u do, does. Paper is not going to teach you what to do in the field, but it will let others know that you have good intent on learning Arboriculture, not just saws and gravity. It will open your eyes to all the knowledge that is out there and show you that there is much more to the industry. I have spent a long time reading and studying and still everyday, I try to read. Just because I have the CA, and at some point I will have the time to test for the BCMA (I think I will pass!), This does not mean I quit studying, way to much info out there to ever feel that I have all I need, ya never will have it all, but the more ya add, knowledge and experience, it will, at some point, come together and you will be a force to be reckoned with. JPS has become a career student of Arboriculture and Biology and only does tree work a few times a month, but he draws so much coin when he does work, that's all he needs to do. That comes from the reputation, knowledge and experience he has.
Well, you got the attention of some good ones. That is because of how you have handled yourself on here since you joined,starting your newb whadya do today thread. I think ya have your head on straight and could make a go of it. Be careful for what ya wish for! U may just get it. Its hard and can smash your brain to mush. When your full time and small, its all on you. Everything, want to go out with the buds, nope, gotta sharpen chains. Wanna go to a car show on Saturday, nope gotta fix that saw. Its crappy out and ya wanna stay inside, nope, you promised Mrs White you would be there, its cold as hell and everything is frozen, don't matter, you made a promise. Dont go, fine, bad rep and lost coin. With that all being said............baby steps, meaning don't take all this and drop what your doing at the hospital and go for it. Nothing wrong with having a goal, nothing wrong with taking your time to ensure your getting to that goal properly.


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## Pelorus (Dec 9, 2013)

LXT - As indicated in my previous post that you referenced, it doesn't always pan out! Would you prefer to work with intellectually lazy thugs, or intelligent people wanting to learn? Which of those two is gonna inspire you, lol?


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## NYTREECLIMBER (Dec 9, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Word, not to many things bug me more than a CA that cant tie in. That's why I think prac app should be part of the test. But that's a whole different discussion. Don't go get the CA and think that's it, its not.I know a few CA's here locally, that still really have no clue, constantly getting told horror story's of how they work and I see the work they do and it sucks. But, because they have the CA, people think they know it all, and they don't. Not that I know it all either, I definitely don't, but I do know what is going on in the field. Paper and shiny trucks don't make ya a good Arb, the work that u do, does. Paper is not going to teach you what to do in the field, but it will let others know that you have good intent on learning Arboriculture, not just saws and gravity. It will open your eyes to all the knowledge that is out there and show you that there is much more to the industry. I have spent a long time reading and studying and still everyday, I try to read. Just because I have the CA, and at some point I will have the time to test for the BCMA (I think I will pass!), This does not mean I quit studying, way to much info out there to ever feel that I have all I need, ya never will have it all, but the more ya add, knowledge and experience, it will, at some point, come together and you will be a force to be reckoned with. JPS has become a career student of Arboriculture and Biology and only does tree work a few times a month, but he draws so much coin when he does work, that's all he needs to do. That comes from the reputation, knowledge and experience he has.
> Well, you got the attention of some good ones. That is because of how you have handled yourself on here since you joined,starting your newb whadya do today thread. I think ya have your head on straight and could make a go of it. Be careful for what ya wish for! U may just get it. Its hard and can smash your brain to mush. When your full time and small, its all on you. Everything, want to go out with the buds, nope, gotta sharpen chains. Wanna go to a car show on Saturday, nope gotta fix that saw. Its crappy out and ya wanna stay inside, nope, you promised Mrs White you would be there, its cold as hell and everything is frozen, don't matter, you made a promise. Dont go, fine, bad rep and lost coin. With that all being said............baby steps, meaning don't take all this and drop what your doing at the hospital and go for it. Nothing wrong with having a goal, nothing wrong with taking your time to ensure your getting to that goal properly.


Great post!


Sent from my prepaid phone


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## bootboy (Dec 10, 2013)

Beans, you have been more than helpful. I've always appreciated your professionalism and encouragement. That you for your words and wisdom.

I know that I won't become a superstar overnight. At 29 I've realized that hard work is the most important thing to getting anywhere in life. And that to get to a meaningful place in this business, I've got a ways to go and that only hard work will get me there.

I want my love of the work to be my driving force. I don't want paper and credentials just I can snooker business. I want to be passionate first, everything second. I want the training and qualifications so that I am able to do the work I love, in the most professional, safe, and effective way.

And you're right about baby steps. In my short time exploring this line of work, I've realized that there are too many aspects of it to allow yourself to get tunnel vision. You need to build all the facets together, don't get lopsided about it. A little here, a little there. 

I started this thread seeking exactly what I've gotten, wisdom and guidance from pros. I may never fully realize my ultimate goals, but I've certainly gotten some great counsel that will get me closer. 

Thank you everyone for your words of encouragement. I'll keep y'all posted about any developments and progress I make. In the meantime, feel free to keep the wisdom flowing my way.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 10, 2013)

word


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## lxt (Dec 15, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> LXT - As indicated in my previous post that you referenced, it doesn't always pan out! Would you prefer to work with intellectually lazy thugs, or intelligent people wanting to learn? Which of those two is gonna inspire you, lol?


 

No ones talking about lazy thugs! a comment was made that a nod would be given to a person holding a CA credential over someone without it! Im just saying that one needs to interview a little more & your saying in a round about way that because someone has no CA their not intelligent & dont wanna learn?

I didnt become a CA till several years ago & it was Treeseer who kinda challenged me to do it....! I studied & found that most the stuff was common sense not like when the NAA proctored the exam, the point........... I could work anywhere as a climber / bucket operator because I went through the apprenticeship & got my ticket, I trained under excellent men who knew the trade & not one of them was a CA, those men`s reputations & the way they trained garnered more respect than any paper saying Certified Arborist on it ever would.

Many of these guys read books & learned about their trade on their own because they wanted too, not because some entity lobbied utilities , Govt`s ,Parks , Etc... & made the need for an ISA CA mandatory to be able to work in those places, the thought that a NON CA is lazy, non intelligent & doesnt wanna learn is just a stupid comment...........I passed that test the first time & did it catapault me to a higher level of tree wisdom? NO......... truth is maybe some think that having the skill to do the job is more important than PAYING $200 + to take a test that says you`re Certified but....might not have the skills to do the job.



LXT.............


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## Pelorus (Dec 15, 2013)

The notion that I have insinuated that a non-CA holder lacks intelligence or the desire to learn is a confection on your part, LXT. As I rarely see your presence around here anymore, I dunno if you are just unaware of (sarcastic) posts I have posted since joining this ship of fools re. how easy it has become to now pass the ISA CA exam.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 15, 2013)

Maybe demographic.
If I did not have it, life would be tough!
Where I live and where we market is very different from other tree co's. Some require TCIA Accredited with a CA on site. The small shop's are really taking a hit here. I feel bad because that is where I came from. You could make a good living here in the 70's and 80's and early 90's.
Now it is very different,,
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 16, 2013)

Word on Jeff's spill. I was actually asked to produce my cert on a bid. At HP, they asked for it and a private HO who has a big pad on the beach in Encinitas (sp?). Both knew what they where looking for and new all about it.


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## Groundman One (Dec 16, 2013)

Now this may simply be the exception and nothing close to the rule, but I've grounded for lots of climbers and exactly one of them was certified, and he was so dangerous to himself and others that I had to call the boss and tell him to come over and deal with it or I would take the keys to the truck and sit out the day in the nearest restaurant.

Certified may be worth something, but on the job training is worth a helluva lot more.


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## KenJax Tree (Dec 16, 2013)

I'll take a qualified climber over a certified climber. Anyone can pass a written test but that doesn't mean he can do the job properly.


Sent from my AutoTune carb


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## Pelorus (Dec 16, 2013)

Apparently NOT everyone could pass the ISA Cert Arb exam of years past....the one that included both tree ID, and successful completion of every domain on the test. So it got dumbed down to what it is today, and I reckon not everyone that writes it passes it even now.


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## nk14zp (Dec 16, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> With that, you are ahead of the game. Probably would be a good idea to get on with another crew, a good one. Find the top, most arrogant guy ya can, beg him to let you join. The good outfits are real funny on who they bring in, don't wanna train your competition, believe me, I know. Convince him your legit and want to learn it the right way. I worked over my edumacatur for a few weeks before he got tired of me and showed on a job and said "grab your saddle" Don't ever say, "well, I do it this way" You will be shot off like a rocket. Listen and watch and be thankful someone is teaching you the way of the Jedi. Your techniques may work fine, but your there to learn the "tricks"


Do the above.


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## treevet (Dec 16, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Apparently NOT everyone could pass the ISA Cert Arb exam of years past....the one that included both tree ID, and successful completion of every domain on the test. So it got dumbed down to what it is today, and I reckon not everyone that writes it passes it even now.



Why did they do that?...revenue, lots and lots of it...recert fees, books, seminars, etc, etc. They may have maxed out and now are pushing and pushing the BCMA. That too will likely get dumbed down.


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## lxt (Dec 17, 2013)

Pelorus, not wanting to banter with ya but your post seemed to come across as such, & I agree on the Cert / testing statement. I think the reason they dumbed it down was because the new generation doesnt possess the field skills that should be required for the cert. I work for the Utility now (hence me not being here much) I am in a totally different Dept but deal with the Vegetation Management group & boy what a bunch of non climbing, cant run a chainsaw, cant ID a tree types they are.............But their Certified Arborists, Utility specialists, gold leaf award pencil pushing, telling the real tree care (non certified but know more) guys what to do.

I get a kick outta these folks theyre running the show, get CEU`s thrown at em but couldnt tie a 1/2 hitch to save their lives, theyre trying to make tree care an occupation to make money off of by making the un-knowing public think that book smarts ala the CA are better to have than someone who has real world experience in the field but has no CA & thats because our culture has pushed college to a point that a BA means nothing without the experience to go along with it, prolly why our work force is mostly older here in PA...........but the point, people base a persons skills off their education & the lack of a paper in the tree care field must mean anyone can do it? But we can make good money doing something without a pigskin & the bean counter doesnt like that at all so lets make those tree guys spend some money on a required, lobbied Certification that now one doesnt even need to know how to ID trees!


LXT........


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## Pelorus (Dec 17, 2013)

There are plenty of hopeless drivers that passed both a practical and written test.....somehow.
Does the existence of this horde of incompetents mean a driver's licence shouldn't be a mandatory requirement to operating a motor vehicle? No. It just means you should be mindful that you are sharing the road with idiots who could kill you at any minute.


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## treevet (Dec 17, 2013)

very civilized arguement


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2013)

treevet said:


> very civilized arguement



Gotta take the 'man-suit' off now to reply,,,,
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 18, 2013)

It is very true, that there are many CA's that cant do anything in the field and as a CA, that pisses me off. I met a guy who never has run a saw, but he is a BCMA! When in SoCal, I met several BCMA's that could not climb out of a wet paper bag let alone do any advanced rigging. I really think that if you are a CA, you should be able to do all things Arboriculture. The full range, from doing a inventory to slammin a biggie in a tight spot. If you are a Arborist, you should be able to work aloft. They need to add prac app to the test, but it will never happen.


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## treevet (Dec 18, 2013)

Conversely, if you are going to prune and treat and make decisions on culling maybe a CA is in order which to me is just a basic knowledge of arboriculture and requires recert. credits, the major positive aspect of the program which also aids keeping you abreast of current research.


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## IcePick (Dec 22, 2013)

bootboy said:


> I know I'm no Reg, I just mentioned him because he has been an inspiration to me. I know Ive got a ways to go before I can even think about contract climbing, but I'm a fast learner and ropes are second nature to me. I'd like to get there someday. I've rigged out 100' tall cottonwoods over decks, blocked down 100'+ pines and firs into tight spaces. I've taken my time to make sure I'm doing it right. I'm not into heroics and I've been known to climb down, take a good look at what I'm doing from different angles, and change my game plan. I eat up anything I can read about tree work, specifically rigging. I bend the ears of crews I see working locally and I sit and watch for hours.
> 
> I know that it may boil down to simply making a choice. Maybe I can't have my cake and eat it too. But at this point it would sure be hard to walk away from my fledgling retirement plan and my benefits at my hospital job.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sounds like you have a lot of ambition. I used to be like that, but my ambition wanes day to day and some days tree work makes me want to puke.


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## treevet (Dec 22, 2013)

that is sad, and even if I ever felt that way, after over forty years, I wouldn't tell anybody that because I would know the feeling would go away soon as it always has in the past and I would die or worse be nothing without this profession.


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## tree MDS (Dec 22, 2013)

treevet said:


> that is sad, and even if I ever felt that way, after over forty years, I wouldn't tell anybody that because I would know the feeling would go away soon as it always has in the past and I would die or worse be nothing without this profession.



Its not the work that makes me wanna puke, its everything else that goes along with trying to be in this business.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 23, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Its not the work that makes me wanna puke, its everything else that goes along with trying to be in this business.


word, the weather, stupid HO's, insurance company's with the head up der butt...............kids crashin chit! If all I had to do was work on some tree's, life would be grand.


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## bootboy (Dec 23, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> word, the weather, stupid HO's, insurance company's with the head up der butt...............kids crashin chit! If all I had to do was work on some tree's, life would be grand.




Well, once I figure out how to make boss's wages with out having to do all rubbish that goes with it, I'll be sure to let everyone know. Just ropes and saws is all I wanna deal with


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