# Red Oak issue - sparse foliage



## Uncle Leo (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm having issues with several trees, but will break it up into two posts.

A little background. "New" house, 1.5 yrs old. Hard clay for soil.

Bought two reasonably mature Red Oak trees from a local grower in May 2006, about 4-5 inches in diameter each. As you can see one tree seems to be doing ok, and the other is getting sparse foliage. Some branches seem dead and some seem ok, and the branches seem sparse.

The grower said that sometimes trees can go into shock for about a year or so after transplanting, but I really don't know if that's true, or not. Just this evening I added six Ross Fertilizer Gro-Stakes around the questionable tree, hoping that will help. 

Can anyone tell by these pictures what is going on?


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## NYCHA FORESTER (Jul 31, 2007)

Hard to tell but I see a nice mulch ring around the healthy tree vs. little if any mulch around the "not so" healthy tree. 

Is it possible you are giving one better care than the other? (front yard vs. back yard)


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## Dadatwins (Jul 31, 2007)

Looks like they were both planted to deep for starters. In hard clay soil the water takes a long time to drain off. How was the hole in the back dug? Was the soil checked for drainage? Judging by the green grass I see a lot of water going on the property and the back tree could be drowning in its own tree pit.


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## Uncle Leo (Jul 31, 2007)

NYCHA FORESTER said:


> Hard to tell but I see a nice mulch ring around the healthy tree vs. little if any mulch around the "not so" healthy tree.
> 
> Is it possible you are giving one better care than the other? (front yard vs. back yard)



Both trees had mulch last year, though I didn't replace it on either one this year. I allowed the grass to grow in around the sparse tree (back yard) and have no real plans for anything sround it. I did the decorative work around the front tree in May of this year.

I have paid more attention to the front tree area, but not specifically to the tree itself.


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## Uncle Leo (Jul 31, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Looks like they were both planted to deep for starters. In hard clay soil the water takes a long time to drain off. How was the hole in the back dug? Was the soil checked for drainage? Judging by the green grass I see a lot of water going on the property and the back tree could be drowning in its own tree pit.



Both trees were planted by the guy I bought them from. He used a huge truck with 4 hydraulic spades and dug them out of the ground at his site, transported them, and dug holes in my yard to put them in with the same machine. (Dug my holes first, obviously) I believe they are pretty much the same depth in my yard as they were on his property.

We have had decent rain this year up until about a month ago, and I have been watering since then. I've also been using a root feeder to water a couple times a week. It seems to have helped make the leaves that are there look better, but overall the tree seems to remain unchanged. I have heard that red oaks don;t like too much water, and the way the contours of the yard go, it's possible it may retain too much in that area.


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## treeseer (Jul 31, 2007)

Tree spades can "glaze" the ddge of the hole. This needs to be scarified and inoculated and the ground around it broken up deeply.

Otherwise unles the soil is very good, the spade makes a clay pot with no drain hole. Or you could call it a tomb.


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## Uncle Leo (Aug 3, 2007)

Ok, I'm not quite sure what I should do here. If the spades glazed the hole, is that something that I can remedy now, or is it too late for that? If I can do something, how would I go about it?

In the mean time, I was thinking of the following...

1- Remove the lower branches that I'm guessing are dead,

2- Remove the grass that's growing in near the trunk, about 1.5' to 2' all around, and adding mulch, etc. It's popular around here to build up a "pit" around trees, and am wondering if that would be good here.

Please tell me if this is a good plan, or if there's something different I should be doing.


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## treeseer (Aug 3, 2007)

Uncle Leo said:


> Ok, I'm not quite sure what I should do here. If the spades glazed the hole, is that something that I can remedy now, or is it too late for that? If I can do something, how would I go about it?
> 
> In the mean time, I was thinking of the following...
> 
> ...


yes to removing grass and mulching, no to pits, they are the pits.

do not remove branches unless you have scratched their bark to see dry and brown inside, confirming death.

you can break up the ground around the planting hole to improve drainage and aeration. you should also find the first primary root. If it is below grade you may have suffocation issues.


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## treeseer (Aug 3, 2007)

Uncle Leo said:


> Ok, I'm not quite sure what I should do here. If the spades glazed the hole, is that something that I can remedy now, or is it too late for that? If I can do something, how would I go about it?
> 
> In the mean time, I was thinking of the following...
> 
> ...


yes to removing grass and mulching, no to pits, they are the pits.

do not remove branches unless you have scratched their bark to see dry and brown inside, confirming death.

you can break up the ground around the planting hole to improve drainage and aeration. you should also find the first primary root. If it is below grade you may have suffocation issues.


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## acipitor (Aug 5, 2007)

*Oaks with sparse foilage*

When you purchased the trees in May of 2006, did they growing equally as well that year, or has the one in the back always been sparse like that?
If the one in the back has always been like that, it probably had a weak root system from the beginning. The city I live in planted three Northern Reds this spring near city hall, and one is doing great, one is doing so-so (about like yours) and one is dead. They're even about the same size as yours. If the leaves are green and healthy and the tree is growing, just keep taking good care of it and it will catch up.

Unfortunately, Oaks and many other coarse rooted trees don't transplant well, and some weakness and even death is to be expected. I've had trouble with Oaks myself, especially smaller trees planted out in the open and bare roots.


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## Uncle Leo (Aug 5, 2007)

treeseer said:


> yes to removing grass and mulching, no to pits, they are the pits.
> 
> do not remove branches unless you have scratched their bark to see dry and brown inside, confirming death.
> 
> you can break up the ground around the planting hole to improve drainage and aeration. you should also find the first primary root. If it is below grade you may have suffocation issues.



Today I dug out the grass around the tree. As you can see by the attached photo the depth from the dirt to the top of the first primary root was approximately 1 inch below the surface. I do not know if that's considered too deep, or is ok. I left the dirt at that level as shown and filled in with much. The mulch now comes up to where the dirt did before. I confirmed the ground around the tree slopes away to allow for drainage and not ponding, even after cutting the grass away.

I also removed four lower branches as they were as brown and dry as could be. One was about 3/4 inch in diameter, one about a half inch, and two very small. All dry and brittle.

I have not yet broken up the dirt around the tree. Will do that in the next day or so.


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## Uncle Leo (Aug 6, 2007)

acipitor said:


> When you purchased the trees in May of 2006, did they growing equally as well that year, or has the one in the back always been sparse like that?
> If the one in the back has always been like that, it probably had a weak root system from the beginning. The city I live in planted three Northern Reds this spring near city hall, and one is doing great, one is doing so-so (about like yours) and one is dead. They're even about the same size as yours. If the leaves are green and healthy and the tree is growing, just keep taking good care of it and it will catch up.
> 
> Unfortunately, Oaks and many other coarse rooted trees don't transplant well, and some weakness and even death is to be expected. I've had trouble with Oaks myself, especially smaller trees planted out in the open and bare roots.



Both were kind of sparse last year, and even the one in the front yard started slow this spring, but the grower I bought them from had told me that they sometimes go into shock for about a year, so I didn't worry about it too much. The front tree really took off around May or June and seems to be doing really well. The back tree seemed to start slower, but ok, then seemed to regress.

Both trees were among the last in the neighborhood to get leaves this year, but I read online that Oaks naturally are late-bloomers.


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## treeseer (Aug 7, 2007)

Uncle Leo said:


> I have not yet broken up the dirt around the tree. Will do that in the next day or so.


I'm sure you know not to break up the rootball, but the soil around it, right?

pic shows deep planting not a factor; check that off the list.


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## ADDA (Aug 7, 2007)

Here is an idea. Is it possible that the top soil composition is different front to rear. It is quite common (at least in the UK) for builders to remove topsoil for themselves (especially in rear gardens). The turf looks alot healthier at the front as well.

The other thing is as others have suggested - If a tree spade was used to plant in heavy clay, it is likely that the roots (used as they are to a nice loamy soil at the nursery) just don't want to leave the pit and spread out into the hard clay. I would try to improve the soil around the pit with some good organic matter as well as breaking it up. 

The symptoms and discounting of other factors suggest that compaction and or nutrient deficiency is the most probable answer. 

Or it could just be a duffer!!!!!!


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## Urban Forester (Aug 15, 2007)

While everyone considers Oaks to be the "iron horses" of trees, they are actually quite sensitive to transplant. This looks like it may be a case of transplant shock. One thing though I would be very leary of applying any more fertilizer until some root establishment occurs and then only in the fall.


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## PB (Aug 21, 2007)

"If it is below grade you may have suffocation issues."

Not enough O2 getting to the roots of the tree. Clay is terrible for allowing plants to "breathe" correctly. The tree is in survival mode, producing little new growth. As others have mentioned, breaking up the soil around the tree will help. Until the tree becomes well established, you will need to aerate on a regular basis. A potato fork is good for poking deep aeration holes into the soil where the roots need it. You won't see a difference this year, maybe next year. Make sure to aerate early in the fall when the tree comes out of its dormant state.


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## treeseer (Aug 21, 2007)

the potato forks i have seen have tines wide enough to damage roots. I use a miner's pick.


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## PB (Aug 21, 2007)

Good point about the forks. I was assuming that the roots have not ventured to far from the initial root ball. If you aerate the area around the hole, it will encourage new root growth in that area. 

Again a good point, the potato forks are only a limited time option.


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## osb_mail (Aug 21, 2007)

maybe you see if the roots have made it past the spade hole if not it might be glazed like treeseer .So you could dig some small trenches away from sides of the hole the just to break up the sides a little .


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## treeseer (Aug 21, 2007)

osb_mail said:


> maybe you see if the roots have made it past the spade hole if not it might be glazed like treeseer .


 Am I a donut or do i need visine or wut?


> So you could dig some small trenches away from sides of the hole the just to break up the sides a little .


good idea, deeper the better.


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## trees1 (Aug 23, 2007)

you may want to try some iron roots with mycorrhiza.
this will help stemulate new root growth,i have had great success with this product.


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## treedoc1 (Aug 23, 2007)

*All root/water related*

No comments about the addition of the "salt spikes" that close to the trunk? Looks like no root flares on the left side of the photo.
Doesn't appear to be a "quality" nursery grown item with the hook at the base, large pruning wounds from late lateral cuts at about the 2-3' mark on the trunk.
That size tree should have been a 48" min diameter rootball @ 2500#. Oaks should be dug a little larger than spec.
Grass that lush and leaves that small equal root rot on the tree. Typically we spec a 3-6" positive dig on the install to make sure it's high enough. That lawn looks like a flush or even negative install.
Peel that lawn back without digging in to the surface roots, mulch to retain the moisture for the future, and change the irrigation to reflect longer duration, less frequency on the lawn...you will also have less leaf spot on that turf.


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