# Young, Dumb & want the Bling!!



## lxt (Dec 1, 2008)

Well the season for me is coming to a close, down to 1 weeks worth of work, must say I had a pretty good year business wise & am very thankful!

however one of my young guns informed me that; "I think im ready to go out on my own" Dude he says...you make a killing & I want some of that Bling!!

LOL!!!!!!! Now I hear em & let em finish, I dont laugh at him (yet)! so I say back to em, you have been a groundie for 2yrs....dam straight dude, & you still dont know how to mix gas/oil, never been more than 20 ft off the ground.

his response; Duuddee! its not that hard man! Ill buy that bucket thingy, anyone can do trees from that! like a bucket is a magical machine which just by running it gives you all the knowledge you can ever need!!

anyway, I tell em today you get to run the bucket thingy, Ill give you more "bling" how much more would you like?? he sees the tree, he walks around it mocking my bidding actions, etc.. he comes over to me & says; Ill bring that B%^ch down for $350.00....so I ask him how long will it take you? here it comes........Dude, Ill be done in no time, just watch!! now guys I bid this tree at $800.00 I figure 1 day (easy going, that time of year, ya know), so I tell him ok, but you have till the end of the day!!

now I would have had the tree on the ground in 3hrs, breaks, cleanup, customer bs, etc...= 8hrs, he spent 2hrs on the first limb 20ft up, was exhausted, sweaty & plain out right scared to death! I though he would of learned his lesson.....so I do the tree, faster than normal to make up for his slowness, when all is said & done he still wanted $350.00 & told me!! Dude now I see how its done, so next time no problem!

Now im laughing at em, $350 for 1 limb...I got 2 words for ya!! he`s a good kid & will be good in time, but his mouth!! anyone else face this or similar before?


LXT..............


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## Metals406 (Dec 1, 2008)

350 for one limb!? Man, inflation is getting out'a control! :jawdrop: 

:greenchainsaw: 

Kid sounds cocky, like, hurt yourself or someone else cocky.


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## gr8scott72 (Dec 1, 2008)

If he's worth keeping around, then teach him all you can and pay him enuf so that he doesn't want to leave.


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## tree MDS (Dec 1, 2008)

That kid sounds annoying as all hell. I'd fire him. Once they get those stupid notions in thier heads its too late - kind of like when a girlfriend starts to #####, once they start they aint never gonna stop. Maybe its me, but groundogs and girlfriends all seem to have a hidden expiration date, lol.

LXT, do you talk price with your guys too much? I do, thats one habbit I've gotta break, always seems to start the process like whats going on in your guys head.


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## Dadatwins (Dec 1, 2008)

Hand him you vehicle cost sheet, insurance bill, fuel bill, chain saw purchase price, and total up all the little toys, ropes, clips, slings, blocks, ect, and see how much 'Bling' he has left from that $350 limb. :greenchainsaw:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 1, 2008)

A grading and landscape company that I do some contracting for has been having more and more problems with the 20 something white boys. The funny thing is that the heir apparent, with whom I deal, is one too. He is cut from a different cloth though.

One fellow sees the owner and son taking off to look at another job and demands to know why they are leaving when there is work to do  

They have some large commercial plowing accounts and a few days ago a newhire started telling the younger owner (Adam) of the company that they were plowing all wrong. The owner listens for a few minutes then says to do it his way, the employees response was "you plow like a crackhead!". 

Adam replies "Well your going to plow like your unemployed pretty soon". No effect whatsoever.

3 years ago he did not believe me that 3 white kids worked like one Hispanic immigrant. Now 75% of the staff is Latino and most "no habla"


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## Wiredp (Dec 1, 2008)

I take offense to all this talk. I am a white male 24 yr old groundie who gets paid fairly and works as hard as I can. I am interested to learn all aspects of the job, but have no belief that I could go out and do it all. I do not want to be grouped in with him. My boss does not talk cost with me and I feel that is a good thing, but I have seen all the equipment. Having a brain on my shoulders I know that I cannot even imagine how much overhead there is for this business. I don't like the generalization.


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## Toddppm (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm must be getting old , I thought the bosses were making good money too but I never would have mouthed off like that.

I would have drop kicked LXT's boy and the plow punk in the nuts before I told them to get off my jobs.


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## mattmc2003 (Dec 1, 2008)

One of the new guys at my work actually tried to take a saw from another worker...while he was trying to get it to crank! In mid pull! He tried to take it out of his hands. Literally. The guy holding the saw is an older fella, been around the block a few times, especially with saws and timber and such. He didn't take kindly to that. Another time, a couple weeks ago, we were cutting R.O.W. for a new road, and the two newest guys were cutting a tree. One guy wwas cutting the chip, and the other just decides he isn't fast enough, and starts his saw and walks over and starts cutting on the same dang tree!!! On the same side!!! Almost run saws together! Its like a freakin horror movie around those guys. And one is an awesome mechanic. Worked on saws at a dealer for 20 years or something like that. And he is good. But he can't run a saw, and can't file one either. Its strange how some of the operators can't fix em, and the mechanics can't run em.


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## treeman82 (Dec 1, 2008)

I hate people like that. In my opinion to have your own tree business you need to start at the bottom and work your way up, whether that be in a family business, or in somebody else's organization.

Grunt / groundman
Climber / spray tech

I hate these groundies who go off on their own and can't climb, or ID even the simplest of trees... they think they know more than their boss... so they will go buy a truck and chipper and become the competition.

If you don't know what it's like to be up in the tree you gave a price on, or even the species, you don't deserve to have the job.


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## TKO-KID (Dec 1, 2008)

it is just the way the baby boomers raised their children (not at all) They thought buying them things helped raise them. Of course now they don't know how to do anything. But since Mommy always told them they where the best and so did school and sports by giving everyone a trophy no matter how bad they sucked.

They all now think they know everything and should be the boss because we don't do anything.

Our full time groundy does it all the time. Even though he is scared of me he still tells me how to do it all the time. You know like why I am climbing all the way up there and cutting each little limb( little to them is 30 feet long and12 inches diameter.

Of course they think we should just cut it at the ground even though it is dying and over a house. Then of course they say the want more hours and I tell them if I go slow and cut of every little branch that they get more hours.

They are all just mentally stunted from there parents and societies babying them


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## pdqdl (Dec 1, 2008)

*It's pretty hard to tell anything to someone who knows everything.* It's probably a waste of time trying to educate the young buck seeking to do that for himself.

1. Let him know that you think he is doing a good job for you, but that he has a great deal of work to do before he is ready to go out on his own.

2. Tell him that if he chooses to go out on his own, you encourage him to give it a try, but that you are not trying to provide training for your own competitor, "...so quit wasting my time with this foolishness", or something like that. I would add some comments about firing anyone trying to steal any business from you.

3. Let him know that after he falls on his face, you will be happy to re-negotiate a new wage with him after he runs himself out of business. Tell him that you are sure that he will be a better employee after he has tried to make it on his own, and that he will probably be worth more than he is now.

_*After that approach doesn't work:*_

You might mention to him that you don't win all of your bids, and that most of the bids you do win are because you are the low bidder. If there was that much money in it, you wouldn't be the low bidder quite so often as he seems to think possible.


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 1, 2008)

I'd say: "You wanna see the bling?"

"Next time we get rained out, you can clean up my saws."

Anyone that says dude all the time wouldn't cut it on my crew, much less become the competition.


I had a guy try and steal a side job from me once, and then wanted to borrow my equipment, and a ride from the other groundie.

He was going to prune some apple trees on his day off.

So I ask him to explain to me how it's done.

He doesn't know.

So I told him he doesn't need my equipment nor take the company name down by hacking someone's apple orchard.

He didn't last anyway.

From the sound of things LXT, I wouldn't teach him anything more. He might actually think he can wing it and get in too deep.


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## gr8scott72 (Dec 1, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> 3 years ago he did not believe me that 3 white kids worked like one Hispanic immigrant. Now 75% of the staff is Latino and most "no habla"



*NOT* the answer!!!


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## mattmc2003 (Dec 1, 2008)

Oh yeah, and one of the new "know it all" guys, was telling another guy how to adjust his carb on his 51 husky. He was telling him how far out to turn the "air" screw, the "gas" screw, and the idle screw...:monkey:


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## (WLL) (Dec 1, 2008)

gr8scott72 said:


> *NOT* the answer!!!


ill back this^^^


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## juststumps (Dec 1, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well the season for me is coming to a close, down to 1 weeks worth of work, must say I had a pretty good year business wise & am very thankful!
> 
> however one of my young guns informed me that; "I think im ready to go out on my own" Dude he says...you make a killing & I want some of that Bling!!
> 
> ...



What you should have done,,,, is said, "O KAY, HERE'S YOUR PAY, NICE KNOWING YOU. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR NEW VENTURE !!!" then laugh your azz off, when the kid gets the clue,,, that he just got canned ... JMHO


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## (WLL) (Dec 1, 2008)

juststumps said:


> What you should have done,,,,


LOL!:deadhorse: lxt will figure it out. he aint no dumby!


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## Lawnmowerboy48 (Dec 1, 2008)

I want to make the 'bling' too, I know that I am underpaid, 4 year college degree and certified arborist. But with the way the economy is right now I am grateful to have a job and at this point in the season the OT is greater than my regular pay. On a side note of the want to be 'bling' makers, we have had two new hires. One has showed up 4 times in the past two weeks, serious balls on his part and a fresh one today, looks about 14. They're on my crew tomorrow, can't wait.


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## (WLL) (Dec 1, 2008)

the fact is the top doggs get the top money. certs, credits and other licenses mean very little to the men who rig down the big wood with there life on the line. most of the bling jobs are done in the back yards from the smaller private company's. lots of top climbers dont even have a drivers licenses


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## (WLL) (Dec 1, 2008)

Lawnmowerboy48 said:


> I want to make the 'bling' too, I know that I am underpaid, 4 year college degree and certified arborist. But with the way the economy is right now I am grateful to have a job and at this point in the season the OT is greater than my regular pay. On a side note of the want to be 'bling' makers, we have had two new hires. One has showed up 4 times in the past two weeks, serious balls on his part and a fresh one today, looks about 14. They're on my crew tomorrow, can't wait.


u just got your first pair of hooks a few months ago. i dont think u are under paid but what the hell do i know:yourock:


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## Husky137 (Dec 1, 2008)

Wiredp said:


> I take offense to all this talk. I am a white male 24 yr old groundie who gets paid fairly and works as hard as I can. I am interested to learn all aspects of the job, but have no belief that I could go out and do it all. I do not want to be grouped in with him. My boss does not talk cost with me and I feel that is a good thing, but I have seen all the equipment. Having a brain on my shoulders I know that I cannot even imagine how much overhead there is for this business. I don't like the generalization.



Why be offended? If the only thing you share with these other chowderheads is being white and twenty-something then why should you be bothered by them talking about useless people. Be proud of what you do and have more confidence in your own actions.


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## lxt (Dec 1, 2008)

I dont really talk "bid" price on jobsite, sometimes a homeowner wants a bid & ill shoot out an estimate, the helps all ears then!! doing the math in their heads, LOL.

He is a good worker, annoying...yes, he is a very anxious kinda kid, you know.. sees 5 things needing done & jumps from one to another then to the next & so on, I have been working on getting him to slow down, think, prioritize & finish one thing first before moving on!!

Today it seems they figure things out $$$ wise, when I started at $9.59 hr I never thought about climbing 30, 40 or 60+ ft in the air, trimming the tree & then coming down & going.....Damn I did that for $9 an hr....I deserve more than that!! today thats their thought process & if they cant make it working for ya.....then they`ll make it as a competitor working against ya!

I dont know if he will stay or not, I hope he does...he`s really a good kid just his mouth...if I could permanently tape it shut I would be fine! although im sure if I teach him a little he will be one of those who knowsitall & no matter how much you pay him.......its not enough "Bling" so I will either waste my time teaching him or leave him as a groundie untill his thought process changes & if not??? Find someone worth teaching. I dont know!


LXT.........


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## juststumps (Dec 1, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> A grading and landscape company that I do some contracting for has been having more and more problems with the 20 something white boys. The funny thing is that the heir apparent, with whom I deal, is one too. He is cut from a different cloth though.
> 
> One fellow sees the owner and son taking off to look at another job and demands to know why they are leaving when there is work to do
> 
> ...



that isn't a 100% solution... i got a guat co worker, 

legal, hard worker....but he's dumb as a bag of hammers... he'll run a dull saw smoking thru a log,(you can't tell him, that it's F'ed up, in his mind it is still cutting somewhat, so it's good !! )

he's from a third world country,,, so his safety practices are really lacking... he does stuff like they do at home..... way unsafe... (free climbing small tree with a chain saw, for example)( standing on the top of a step ladder, with a chain saw )

thinks he's saving the company money, when he tries to fix something , and it takes over an hour to fix it,,,( something that costs $8.00 )....

speaks english fairly well, but you have to watch, because sometimes it doesn't get thru...

last but least, he's pig headed !!! won't listen .... had to put a rod in a tree.. he grabbed a 1/2 inch bit, and the extension.. the only problem, is the extension is 5/8, where you chuck the bit...told him it wouldn't work several times,, nicely..in front of the boss he blew up. screaming.. "LET ME TRY TO DO IT" the ignorant idiot tried it.. it didn't work !!!

for low tech work, that may be the way to go,,,,, BUT THERE IS A REASON::::: THAT NONE OF THOSE CONTRIES HAVE A SPACE PROGRAM !!!!!!

PS::: for some reason they can't get the bottle rockets and the roman candle boosters in sync , to get the 64 VW beetle space rover off the ground...


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 2, 2008)

juststumps said:


> for low tech work, that may be the way to go,,,,, BUT THERE IS A REASON::::: THAT NONE OF THOSE CONTRIES HAVE A SPACE PROGRAM !!!!!!
> 
> ...



And the US achieved theirs by getting a German. It has more to do with the resources and priorities of the country.

Being the father of a young 20 year old, I see him and his friends and have formed an opinion on their work ethic. Since these kids have been old enough to work, the economy in this area has been rocking. So, if they don't like this job, then there are lots of other companies crying for employees, and finding a new job is easy. Plus all you ever hear from trainers and others who view the job market from a long term perspective is how we are going to need thousands of new hires as the boomers retire. This gives the idea that if you treat me like a 'slave' there is always somewhere else. 

Another factor is the perks given to people particularily in the high tech sector, the free food, pool tables, parties etc. 

It gives a poor notion to those kids with little work experience.

However, I think that crappy economy and loss of jobs is going to be a good thing for these kids. It will put a higher value on the jobs they have because there isn't another one around the corner, it's really the unemployment line.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> A grading and landscape company that I do some contracting for has been having more and more problems with the 20 something white boys. The funny thing is that the heir apparent, with whom I deal, is one too. He is cut from a different cloth though.
> 
> One fellow sees the owner and son taking off to look at another job and demands to know why they are leaving when there is work to do
> 
> ...



So a traitor company ehhhhhhh?


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 2, 2008)

Hey Rope ! Next week I start my new job, as a salesman for Wm. Martinez Tree Care ! If ya can't beat-um then join-um !


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 2, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> So a traitor company ehhhhhhh?



Not if they are legals.

I'm a NorthEuro mutt, Sanborn's got here in 1626 fleeing religious persecution in England, Bell was indentured then soldiered in the revolution, Larson and Jones came in the late 1800's. All of them needed work, those who their children married came over needing work.

If they are legal and want to work and follow direction, then that is the American Way. 

Winnowing the chaff of these slacker kids just to find a few that will make a decent laborer is for the birds. 



> Hey Rope ! Next week I start my new job, as a salesman for Wm. Martinez Tree Care ! If ya can't beat-um then join-um !



I have a buddy named Pena, who owns Tree Pro's. Second generation American, hard worker and honest business man. I've no problem working for him. 

What is the difference between discrimination of a white man or a brown man? 

Yes I ma truly being prejudiced against white kids, because I've seen too many of slackers. I'm favorably prejudiced towards Hispanics because I've seen so many of them that want to do a good job for good pay.

This iss my experiance, if you are a hardworking 20ish white boy finding it hard to get a job, blame your peers for ****** it up for you.


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## tree MDS (Dec 2, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> the fact is the top doggs get the top money. certs, credits and other licenses mean very little to the men who rig down the big wood with there life on the line. most of the bling jobs are done in the back yards from the smaller private company's. lots of top climbers dont even have a drivers licenses



+ 1 on that. Alot of the bigger companies dont have the skilled workers to do some of the jobs I've done. Certs dont matted when its time for the big riggin. Most of the real good treemen work for themselves, though there are alot also that work for those real good well established companies. Those are the type of worker I cant afford yet due to fear of running out of work and them leaving. I can always find something for a groundman to do in the season - climbers get attitudes and all want to think they are the best before actually putting in thier time. I hate it when some greenhorn tells me how to do something I've been doing all my adult life, it becomes some sort of sick competion with these guys almost. Had a bucket queen that thought he was so precious... its like: DUDE! YOU DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO TIE A PORTAWRAP ON A TREE PROPERLY! That didnt stop him from showing my groundie how to do it wrong though - and then catching attitude when I said it was wrong. Thats the phychologist part of the owners job, one of the worst parts.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Not if they are legals.
> 
> I'm a NorthEuro mutt, Sanborn's got here in 1626 fleeing religious persecution in England, Bell was indentured then soldiered in the revolution, Larson and Jones came in the late 1800's. All of them needed work, those who their children married came over needing work.
> 
> ...



If you are a 20 ish finding it hard to get work it
was most likely your parents that failed you or
it could be you wont work for the same illegals
do! It seems more a problem in metro areas to
me country boys seem to know work is inevitable.
Legals ok do not have issues accept learn our
language for safety and basic communication.


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## tree MDS (Dec 2, 2008)

Its the media and the parenting I think. They all want to be hip hop stars now it seems. The parents are so locked down with all these modern laws that they'll get sent to prison or worse yet "anger management" classes if they deliver a good old fashioned can of whoopa$$ like they probably need.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 2, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Its the media and the parenting I think. They all want to be hip hop stars now it seems. The parents are so locked down with all these modern laws that they'll get sent to prison or worse yet "anger management" classes if they deliver a good old fashioned can of whoopa$$ like they probably need.



Yup they did not have my father and the one rule that
he meant, son I brought your azz into this world and I would
have no problem taking you out of it should you make it necessary.
Sure I screwed up and sometimes I got away with it but most times
it hurt my azz and pride. He would light you up in walmart it did not
matter what no one thought or said and I almost always had it coming!


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## pdqdl (Dec 2, 2008)

I have a lot of biases, but I will not admit to any prejudices. It matters NOT what color skin a man has, but it makes a great deal of difference what society he comes from, who his parents were, and how he was raised.

Some of my biases:

1. Inner city urban youth: they were not often raised to get up early and go to work. Black or white, they tend to be snot nosed about doing difficult, dirty work, and tend to be less honest and forthright. Parents make all the difference here, and absence of a father is almost proof that they will be useless.

Since this is my primary labor pool, I am often dissappointed in who I have to hire.

2. Farm kids tend to be the opposite of #1, although finding them in the city is difficult. [I am in the city] Look out for rebellion/useless problems.

3. Workers from poor cultures (think mexicans, guatamalans, etc.) tend to be hard working and honest, if they didn't come from an urban area. There are certainly exceptions! They also tend to be very rigid about learning new things, and they also don't seem to want to become part of our society or culture. 

Don't look for most of them to try to be anything more than the sweat on the end of a shovel. I consider that to be a sad event; an opportunity missed for them. They also seem to want as much as they can get ($$), but are not willing to make long term or loyalty commitments. I suppose that is because they feel the same way about their employers loyalties.

I have only hired a few illegals for more than a day at a time, and they were fine gentleman, except they still had no loyalties to me. Even after 3 years of employment, we parted company because they would skip to another job in a heartbeat. Day workers picked up "from under the bridge" are a mixed bag of problems, but they are ALWAYS better than calling any of the many labor pools in KC and getting the drunks they send you.


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## tree MDS (Dec 2, 2008)

Pdq, I've been thinking about trying to get some farm boy next year. I just gotta figure out what paper will reach them.. I know we got em around here.
I call em hillbillies - big tired flatbeds with chewing tobacco, only hillbillies i tried so far, one was a druggie and the other was a toothless simpleton...so I guess I kind of quit on them. Maybe next year I'll broaden my search.

Rope, back to the parenting thing, +1. These boys dont know what work is because thier parents are either too soft or the father was non-existent. I'm not ashamed to admit that I quit school, but when I did my parents said "if you quit school your gonna have to work"! What did I do? I found the hardest job I could: treework. Showed them, and have done quite well for myself as well. I just think people have lost thier drive - and brains lately.

I had one of them yo yo fiddy cent losers (white guy, Irish) three or four years ago. It was the middle of winter and if he chipped ten 3" branches he would have to sit down all pink faced and swill some water down - what a joke! In fact at the end he was getting a loan from his sister (who had her own "biddiness") supposedly so that he could "buy a bucket truck and start his biddiness, you know, just doing smaller trees and yardwork". Of course it never happened, he got kicked around the utility treework scene for a while, they even gave him a bucket truck for a couple of weeks till he couldnt show up for work, and then canned the retard. I just heard he joined the army, lol. No wonder its taking us so long over there.


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## treemandan (Dec 2, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Pdq, I've been thinking about trying to get some farm boy next year. I just gotta figure out what paper will reach them.. I know we got em around here.
> I call em hillbillies - big tired flatbeds with chewing tobacco, only hillbillies i tried so far, one was a druggie and the other was a toothless simpleton...so I guess I kind of quit on them. Maybe next year I'll broaden my search.
> 
> Rope, back to the parenting thing, +1. These boys dont know what work is because thier parents are either too soft or the father was non-existent. I'm not ashamed to admit that I quit school, but when I did my parents said "if you quit school your gonna have to work"! What did I do? I found the hardest job I could: treework. Showed them, and have done quite well for myself as well. I just think people have lost thier drive - and brains lately.
> ...



You really have to watch how you start your paragraphs buddy.


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## tree MDS (Dec 2, 2008)

Whatever, who cares. Where ya been dan? get that spill cleaned up yet?


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## treemandan (Dec 2, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Whatever, who cares. Where ya been dan? get that spill cleaned up yet?



Did you know America holds a lottery? If you win you get to be a citizen? Hey, do you pay WC on subs?


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## tree MDS (Dec 2, 2008)

Why do you? If you do I wouldnt pay them too much because at that point they are basically employees no?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 2, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Hey, do you pay WC on subs?



It depends on whether the sub has a policy (many carry W/C with a self exclusion, some call it a "fake comp") or if the primaries policy requires that the sub carries it.

For those who require that I go onto their W/C records, I bill a portion at industry standard wage, and the rest as equipment rental.


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## tree MDS (Dec 2, 2008)

Yeah "fake comp", good way of describing it. I ran into that a while back when this lady's ins. co. wanted me to have comp on myself - her agent said he could hook me up for 1000$ but I wouldnt actually be covered if anything happened? WTF is the point of that I thought. We ended up using my subs comp to get the job anyway. Now I have comp, just not on myself.


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## TreeBot (Dec 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Not if they are legals.
> 
> I'm a NorthEuro mutt, Sanborn's got here in 1626 fleeing religious persecution in England, Bell was indentured then soldiered in the revolution, Larson and Jones came in the late 1800's. All of them needed work, those who their children married came over needing work.



When unchecked labor imports have reduced your children to as poor a state as your ancestors were when they came here, where will they go this time? Antarctica?



> If they are legal and want to work and follow direction, then that is the American Way.



Good for them for making it here, and I have nothing against them personally, especially if they are legal. But we can not be the sponge that mops up excess labor capacity in a world with 6+ billion people. Not without destroying ourselves anyway.



> Winnowing the chaff of these slacker kids just to find a few that will make a decent laborer is for the birds.



Going to the trouble of finding good workers should be part of doing business. But the native laborer has been cut out of the loop, and so you don't have to. If I could get MS200's sent for $99 each direct from Germany I wouldn't have to bother paying $600-700, but that is not the way it is, so I pay the cost like everyone else and factor it in. Looking for native workers would be the same if we did not have massive wage deflation caused by imported labor. And maybe then some of these kids would feel the motivation to work if they had a chance to make more than a small fraction of what their fathers and grandfathers did.



> I have a buddy named Pena, who owns Tree Pro's. Second generation American, hard worker and honest business man. I've no problem working for him.



Neither would I, since he is an AMERICAN.



> What is the difference between discrimination of a white man or a brown man?



Who is discriminating against the brown man? In fact black and brown and Indian _Americans_ are hurt by massive labor influxes more than white workers. The whole idea of importing all this cheap labor got started when slavery ended as a way to get around paying real wages to former slaves.



> Yes I ma truly being prejudiced against white kids, because I've seen too many of slackers. I'm favorably prejudiced towards Hispanics because I've seen so many of them that want to do a good job for good pay.



Pay that is good in _Mexico_. In this world there are millions of people so desperate that half a bowl of dirty rice with some rat guts in it for protein would be a vast improvement, and therefore "good pay". Do we really want to force the working people of this country to compete on par with them?



> This iss my experiance, if you are a hardworking 20ish white boy finding it hard to get a job, blame your peers for ****** it up for you.



I subbed for one of my sort-of competitors* one time and insisted on bringing my own guy (he uses illegals exclusively). The job went long and at about 5:30pm I was ready to pack it in, and so was my help. The contractor we were working for asked if we would stay and finish and I said no, we were done, we had worked the "day" I had told him we would, all the climbing was done and there was just a few hours of ground work. Then he asked my helper if he would stay and he said no, he had left the house before 7am that day and he was ready to get back home, let out his dog and have some dinner. Then the contractor pulls me aside and says that next time to just come by myself because he wasn't going to pay my helper $100 day if he wouldn't even finish the job. This man had actually just lost his job of 15 years to immigrant labor and now he was willing to get out and grunt brush out of a backyard all day in the heat for peanuts, but that was not good enough. Imagine how that feels.

*actually more a competitor of PDQDL than me


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## pdqdl (Dec 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> It depends on whether the sub has a policy (many carry W/C with a self exclusion, some call it a "fake comp") or if the primaries policy requires that the sub carries it.
> 
> For those who require that I go onto their W/C records, I bill a portion at industry standard wage, and the rest as equipment rental.



Yep. That works.

I hire snow removal subs; they typically have no Worker's comp coverage, which is not required by Missouri for businesses with too few employees. My Worker's comp insurance company AUDITS at the end of their business year, and they bill me 1/3 of the snow pay as wages. Or would, if I wasn't beating them at that game.

Each sub is an employee, gets a nominal wage, and the rest is equipment rental with a 1099 at the end of the year.


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## treemandan (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks for the advice, truly from professional profesionals. 

At any rate, I was never on this end until now. I was always the sub. The fake Wc came up but that wasn never a problem either if you know what I mean.
I was never sure what it was even though I had it explained to me over and over again. It just didn't make sense. If I needed comp to go I didn't go... or nobody ever said anything about me being there.
Here is something you all might like:
I was doing sub work and my policy was about to end. I was hammering it out at this place full of cokey's , convicts and border jumpers and knew I wasn't going to be sticking around much longer.
I had some avenues so I was thinking about whether or not to renew my ins. It turns out that one day in 5 degree weather I accidentaly let the leash out on my 20 to far and it sent one that ripped out this lady's power line. I called my ins co laughing and said bye, bye. It was just a real small claim that I would have paid for if I planned to keep the ins. A year later I call em back up up and say " Yo, I want to renew my policy now!" Same company all these years now.
Once a year they send someone to mess with me by cancelling, audit, or with false info I have to sort out. I guess I do deserve that. Its something of a game now. I can't wait til the new girl comes out for the audit on fri.
My policy allows for a percentage of paid contractors. So the Wc thing isn't even my problem. Its for this guy I did about 6 grand for this year. 
Some guys get the Ho to cut me a check. I was at this one place for an hour once and the lady gave me a check for a G. It was what the guy owed me. I just make a invoice for them. Its not hurting me and it sure helps whoever owes me. What a racket!
I guess I would rather do it like that than have the mexicans. Really. America holds a 50,000 person lottery. Its open to all those who are not American only. Apparently this has been tru for a few years. I just heard of it. Its just no use.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 3, 2008)

> Good for them for making it here, and I have nothing against them personally, especially if they are legal. But we can not be the sponge that mops up excess labor capacity in a world with 6+ billion people. Not without destroying ourselves anyway.



I'm not talking about a rural meat processing plant that hires all illegals so they can pay minimum wage. The people I deal with pay over industry standard, starting labor around $10-12, experienced groundsman around $15, climber trainee $13-15.

Kids these days think things should be given, not earned. There are exceptions that make the rule, but it is getting harder to find them. Even telling kids that you have no faith, and they mush prove themselves does not work. That used to be a rule, the newguy was the know-nothing worm. Now they whine about people being mean to them.

If there is a more reliable pool I say go for it. As long as you are legal and fair. I'm all for a level playing field for people who want to work, I just cannot see ruling out immigrant labor to struggle finding a white 22 year old who does not act like a 16 year old.


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## TreeBot (Dec 3, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I'm not talking about a rural meat processing plant that hires all illegals so they can pay minimum wage. The people I deal with pay over industry standard



That's just it though, industry standards would be much higher in fields like ours if it wasn't for unlimited access access to immigrant labor. It is simple supply and demand. 

My grandfather payed wages nearly that high in _1970_ when a brand new truck cost $2000, the materials to build a house cost $5000-$10,000, and a candy bar cost a nickel or a dime instead of a dollar.

It's a tough issue, many people who use immigrants would not even be able to stay in business without them, I don't pretend it is simple or cut and dried, but the degree of influx of desperate laborers puts a severe downward strain on the wages of those Americans who can least afford it. 

There is a reason why those immigrants work so hard: they are making many times more money than their fathers and grandfathers ever had a chance to, while their American competition is making many times less than what their's made.


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## 00chris85 (Dec 3, 2008)

*don't pick on the 20 somethings we arn't all that bad*

i come from a father and son company (i'm the son) the ground guys that we hire are mad at us when i'm doing all the "fun/cool" jobs (running a saw for 8 hrs a day losses it's fun rather quickly in my mind) and i'm younger then them. they see it as unfair to load wood/brush, when there is a guy that is the same age as him who dose the climbing and cutting.
They won't say anything for about 2 days then it normally starts at a lunch, picking on me that is, and bellyaching. but it's pretty bad when a 20 year old kid is out working a 25 is what i always say to them. depending on the kid dad and i will keep count as to how many times they will pull up their pants in a day. 
we have always found that the best people to work is old loggers and French men. if you can get a couple of loggers from Quebec your laughing.

I'm ashamed to be part of the age group that doesn't want to work or doesn't want to work for nothing less then 15 an hour.


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## tree MDS (Dec 3, 2008)

We aint sayin yer all bad, just the vast majority. Take your crew with 2 out of 3 being whiners. 

Its like I said, the parenting thing.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 3, 2008)

TreeBot said:


> My grandfather payed wages nearly that high in _1970_



Are you adjusting for inflation or quoting top climber pay?

Here in the MKE area guys were making $7-8/hr as climbers. Top man was around $10/hr from what I'm told which is $20k/yr before OT.

Not bad, it's close to what my Dad was doing as a educated civil servant.


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## senechal (Dec 3, 2008)

00chris85 said:


> we have always found that the best people to work is old loggers and French men. if you can get a couple of loggers from Quebec your laughing.



the french connection!:greenchainsaw:


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## Wiredp (Dec 3, 2008)

I make more than 10/hr as a groundie, but I guess that is just a difference in region. I think it may be because they are trying to build a good crew so they don't want to train somebody and then lose them.


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## Timberhauler (Dec 3, 2008)

I had a guy like that a while back.I could go on for days about some of the stuff he did.I eventually fired him because he couldn't stay out of trouble with the law..He always was bugging me to let him climb.He insisted that he did all of the climbing for another outfit he worked for.He was 24 at the time and smoked at least two and a half packs a day.He always had this terrible cough.It was almost sad.I granted him his wish one day when we were doing some trimming on some lake front lots.There were about 90 trees to climb,all of the brush was staying so there wasn't really any ground work to do.The job was a two hour drive from home so I really had to get all I could out of each day.I told him not to rush but to pace himself and he still insisted that he would get more done than me(even though I had to set his rope for him on every single tree because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the throwline).He dropped my climbing saw twice and cut into my brand new climbing rope causing me to loose 30ft of it.By 2 that afternoon he was dehydrated and was about to have a heat stroke.To mention I was climbing about 3 trees to his one.I'm not saying every 24 year old is like this,but the ones that are get on my nerves.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 3, 2008)

Wiredp said:


> I make more than 10/hr as a groundie, but I guess that is just a difference in region. I think it may be because they are trying to build a good crew so they don't want to train somebody and then lose them.


If you are a groundy that remembers to get the gas lids on,
have the porty and bull rope ready and know where to be located
doing so. Starts getting brush up when safe can tighten chain proper.
Rivs but never bitc?es and always does his best to be what his climber 
needs then you are worth a good fifteen imo. I however see more that
even though they think they are on top of it, aren't. Good groundmen
are a terrific asset the others a dime a dozen but the best groundy is
a well seasoned climber!  to the good and best groundy's
you know who you are and so does your boss or he should!


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## senechal (Dec 3, 2008)

Wiredp said:


> I think it may be because they are trying to build a good crew so they don't want to train somebody and then lose them.



That is a good practice indeed, but only part of the equation. A larger company can offer a lot to a new worker as incentive to stick around, but the turnover problem still exists proportionally. Fortunately the perks continue because it's seen as doing the right thing.

Could it be that this is a generation burdened by choice? Easy credit for more options of vehicles and equipment than ever breeds easy exits to company ownership, followed by the hiring of some cheap labour. Repeat process and we hit today's saturation levels.

Most of my friends my age see no long term prosperity potential and have little interest in staying at any job until a more convenient (in the short term) opportunity presents itself. People are cherry picking jobs just like employers used to cherry pick from the crowds of applicants. That said, it takes a particular individual (particularly tweaked? haha) to get into the tree biz, and then you throw personality dynamics into the mix. 

We had a ground hire this year go out and buy all his own gear to qualify for a climbing arborist raise, but made no effort to learn knots or wood dynamics and aerial chainsaw let alone physical climbing. He had the nuts to raise a stink about the raise. We took this guy out on our crew for a couple of days at a gentle pace and he complained he'd never worked so hard at the company. The wrong personality dynamics and you can take a hire that seems fine and watch him go at the end of the week.


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## TreeBot (Dec 3, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Are you adjusting for inflation or quoting top climber pay?



No I am not adjusting for inflation, that's the problem, wages have not been rising with inflation. 

He wasn't an arborist, he built houses but he paid at least $6 an hour to start and anyone who stuck around long made it to $10 pretty quick. 



> Here in the MKE area guys were making $7-8/hr as climbers. Top man was around $10/hr from what I'm told which is $20k/yr before OT.



You would have to make *$111,635.57* before overtime (source) to have the same purchasing power today as $20k had in 1970. That's over $55 an hour! And that is using government figures which many say are underestimated. At this rate in another 30 years we will be making the equivalent of $2hr.


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## lxt (Dec 3, 2008)

treebot, those numbers are no doubt right on!! thats one of the problems with this trade, prices in my area on a tree can be from $250-$800 on the same tree!!! imagine the home owners thoughts.

corporate greed has in some ways got its hooks into all of us, cause we know what we need to make in order to survive....but if we truly bid what we should people would think we are crazy!! Now comes along rapper I want some "bling" with his pants falling down......I start my guys off pretty good $12+ hour to start!! if you have commonsense you will quickly move up to $15 hr.

The one kid I had was my parents foster kid, good worker but similar to the newbe mentioned earlier......he was on SSI..why? cause he had problems, bi-polar, ruptured ear drum, learning impairment, etc.. he made $600.00 a month on SSI when I told him to fill out the W-4 (which he needed help on) & explained what that was for.......he Quit!! he told me that $600.00 I will get for the rest of my life & im not giving that up...work me under the table "man"

needless to say...........C ya!! this is their thought process, not all of em but many of em!! Society has created soft, put in time out, crybabies who think they are worth more than they are.....They`re taught & told how to do this!!

by spoiling our children we inadvertantly ruin the future of this country, what was once built on the backs of men who`s sweaty brows forged ahead is now built on the backs of illegals hired by our children & done cheaper..no pride!!


LXT..................


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## senechal (Dec 3, 2008)

agreed. My dad always brought me down a notch when I started to get high on my horse at work, told me I could be replaced in a flash and be grateful for what you've got. You want it, you've got to earn it fair and square. I think you're right in saying higher wages and raises and perks are basically expected now.


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## tomtrees58 (Dec 3, 2008)

Dada Twins said:


> Hand him you vehicle cost sheet, insurance bill, fuel bill, chain saw purchase price, and total up all the little toys, ropes, clips, slings, blocks, etc, and see how much 'Bling' he has left from that $350 limb. :green chainsaw:



he does not see the hole picture tom trees:jawdrop:


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## B-Edwards (Dec 3, 2008)

I think times are going to get rough enough where alot of people see how lucky they are/were. The free ride is about over for a lot of lazy know-it-all people. Bad thing is, most who have had to pay their dues will winding up paying them some more.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 3, 2008)

TreeBot said:


> You would have to make *$111,635.57* before overtime (source) to have the same purchasing power today as $20k had in 1970. That's over $55 an hour! And that is using government figures which many say are underestimated. At this rate in another 30 years we will be making the equivalent of $2hr.



Man, I want somma dat bling! lol


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## asetree (Dec 3, 2008)

*You know what they say.*

The best way to make a Small fortune in the tree business

Start out with a Large One.


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## pdqdl (Dec 3, 2008)

*I was just checking up on Treebot*

That sounded like too much money, but I checked up on it. Yep. He was right. But I was working for $1 per day in 1970. So it would take me a long time to get to $20K.

Here is a good reference to figure out inflation: 

http://stats.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Here is what I put in, and I got the previously posted information:


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## reachtreeservi (Dec 3, 2008)

Treebot, I think you are spot on with your opinion and your posts. 

What gets me is that even though it's more than obvious, people don't want to see it.

The devaluing of the work force, the overload of all social services, etc....


The question is not what's happening, but how much more can the country take before the entire infrastructure collapses.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 3, 2008)

reachtreeservi said:


> Treebot, I think you are spot on with your opinion and your posts.
> 
> What gets me is that even though it's more than obvious, people don't want to see it.
> 
> ...



The question is when are we going to do something about it?


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 3, 2008)

I totally disagree with those that state that kids are lazy due their upbringing. In my opinion, you are not seeing the intelligent and motivated kids that are out there. In other words, you are picking groundies essentially from the dregs. Any motivated kid, with any intelligence isn't going to be slaving away as a groundie for $8-10-12/hr. They will be at college or university or trade school.

We create our own problem. If you want talented people, you need to pay (wages and perks) that compete with the places where those talented/motivated people go out of school. 

As an example, my daughter has just graduated from university. Was very motivated, paid her own way with scholarships/part time jobs, was a student leader, member of the university senate yada yada yada (Daddy's got to brag once in a while). As a filler job until her internship comes up, she goes to work for the local provincial representative. She makes the same as me and all she does is answer phones and write responses to constituent letters. Her friend, a social work grad, is getting $25/hr right out of school, to start as a social worker, plus all the perks as a gov't employee. The fact they can't physically do the job is irrelevant, as there are many strong fit kids in the same situation.

I think the other factor to consider is the competition you are getting from the military. How many potential tree workers are going to the military due to their massive recruiting drive?

To my way of thinking employees are like customers. If you want a better class of customer, you move into neighbourhoods where they exist. If you want a better class of employee, you seek out that cohort that fits the need.


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## pdqdl (Dec 4, 2008)

There is no doubt that we are working with the dregs. When discussing this issue with other folks, I have always said that those people who could get a better job than this, already did. Those that can't hold a job, come to me for work.

It's sad, but true. Even if I paid $30 per hour, I would only end up hiring the best help away from my competitors. I would not be elevating the quality of people seeking to enter the business.

That would take a very deep change in our economy and social structure.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 4, 2008)

15-20 years ago, when ArborAge was still worth reading, there was an opinion article about professionalism in the trade. The same ripped shirt, holey pants rant I do today. 

The author said that we are seen by many in the public as semi-skilled labor, a few steps above the trash pickers. Some see no difference between the people who personify the stereotype and those who show up in a eatup pickup and old megadeath concert shirt.

Wisconsin has it a bit better since we have 2 very good arbo and one UF program at colleges and university. Lots of bright young faces in at the WAA meetings.


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## tree MDS (Dec 4, 2008)

asetree said:


> The best way to make a Small fortune in the tree business
> 
> Start out with a Large One.



Yo ace, you wanna clarify that a little?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 4, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> I totally disagree with those that state that kids are lazy due their upbringing. In my opinion, you are not seeing the intelligent and motivated kids that are out there. In other words, you are picking groundies essentially from the dregs. Any motivated kid, with any intelligence isn't going to be slaving away as a groundie for $8-10-12/hr. They will be at college or university or trade school.
> 
> We create our own problem. If you want talented people, you need to pay (wages and perks) that compete with the places where those talented/motivated people go out of school.
> 
> ...



So essentially we were all the dregs of society at least early in our
career ehhhh? :monkey: I make no defense to that but have popped
a couple high fluting sob's noses for looking down them at me. I make
an honest living they usually can't say that!


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## pdqdl (Dec 4, 2008)

No Rope, not at all.

As I stated, you already have a better job than working for me, so you're not in that labor pool.

Come on up to KC, and I'll see if I can afford you.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yo ace, you wanna clarify that a little?



Start with a large fortune and piss it away funding your tree service.


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## tree MDS (Dec 4, 2008)

*Sad but true*



John Paul Sanborn said:


> Start with a large fortune and piss it away funding your tree service.



Lol. I know at least two that have done just that. Its sad but true that people actually buy the fake image thing like that - it does seem to work somewhat though. People dont know that all they really hired is the same pickup truck hack - just fortified with shiney eqipment. All they see is the fact that job is done and they couldnt have done it themselves.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 4, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> No Rope, not at all.
> 
> As I stated, you already have a better job than working for me, so you're not in that labor pool.
> 
> Come on up to KC, and I'll see if I can afford you.



I meant when we were all newby's KC ehhhh:monkey:
I may make that trip pard what I really need is slow time
covered but most times we are all in that same boat.
I came that way about a year ago heading to Nebraska
for a aunts funeral was going to stop by tree bots but
just wanted to get on home. I am cheap if I have nothing 
to do but I do try to stay busy and I have effectively 
been able to schedule some work to make it to Jan!
Who knows after that it could be we get Ice this year
like you did for the last two and then I will be rollin$


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## lxt (Dec 4, 2008)

we are seen as semi skilled labor because many enter this trade with a pickup truck & no biz sense!! well its gonna get worse!!

as far as kids being hired & drag brush for $8 hr & they should get more or pay em more scenario...... what a bunch of BS, my daughters in college & does all her own stuff just like the poster said....however She will work for $8 hr money is money & this attitude of start me at the top & keep moving me up higher is crazy!!

what happened to Prove yourself, earn it & the start out at the bottom & work your way up attitude?? they dont think that way today, it me,me,me & how much $$ I can make, wheres the benefits & how about a company vehicle, etc.. what they dont realize is right now they have loyalty to no one but their pocketbook & themselves.......somewhere down the road they`re gonna need a job/reference & they`ll see where that attitude gets em!!!


LXT.............


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## tree MDS (Dec 4, 2008)

LXT, why dont you just fire his a$$ already?

I must have gone through about 18 losers this year, after awhile the firing part is actually quite enjoyable.


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## epicklein22 (Dec 4, 2008)

Seems like this is a regular problem here. I see similar posts all the time about finding workers.

I agree with the posts about most kids being garbage as far as laborers. I can think of 2 or 3 of my friends that would be worth a sh!t as a groundie. Most of kids my age run fast and far away from hard work.

When you are paying people 8 to 12 bucks to do hard manual labor and the job is seasonal, you aren't gonna find a lot of good workers. Period. The tree company I worked for this past summer went through 3 or 4 people in just a few months.


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## B-Edwards (Dec 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> LXT, why dont you just fire his a$$ already?
> 
> I must have gone through about 18 losers this year, after awhile the firing part is actually quite enjoyable.



Dang I hate to admit it because it makes us sound mean but I agree. One guy I let go was fired from his job before working for me for talking on his cell phone, I swear when I fired him he was on it telling me to hang on while he finished his call. Never seen anyone like him, I liked the guy but he was worthless as hired help. Dope heads and drunks make it hard to find team players that could one day be coach. Good luck.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 4, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> LXT, why dont you just fire his a$$ already?
> 
> I must have gone through about 18 losers this year, after awhile the firing part is actually quite enjoyable.



I know it is hard to find a good worker but if you have too much of a 
pattern of firing the problem could lie with your management skill!
I am not saying it did, does, just that trends are what is looked at
to determine problems and 18 workers fired is a trend toward you
possibly mismanaging authority! Sometimes we have to help a borderline
worker become productive by helping him understand we want his help
and pointing out his strong suits and explaining his poor and asking him
to get on board instead of alienating him!


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## pdqdl (Dec 4, 2008)

*I hate to fire people*

Firing people too soon just repeats the same cycle over and over and over. I figure that if they continue to improve, then it is worth my time. If I keep having to repeat myself, and the same mistakes keep getting made... they're hopeless. _*Move On*_

I try to work with the losers as much as possible; I figure if they're not a good worker to begin with, it's probably because no one ever taught them how to be one. If they try hard, I figure I've got a winner-in-the-works, rather than the loser they seem to be.

I end up wasting a lot of my time trying to teach them how to be a better employee. It only works a very small percentage of the time, and then I am forced to go through the selection process again: looking through the job applications... making the phone calls... interviewing the applicants... doing all the paperwork to set up a new employee... begin all the training over again.

Presumably, just to find out that the next employee in line was no better nor worse than the one I just fired. Except that now I have wasted all of that time training another employee.


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## pdqdl (Dec 4, 2008)

Speaking of firing people, it looks like I need to fire my office assistant. Every single day I have to ask her "How long have you been working here?" when she cannot figure out some simple task on the computer.

She only worked two days last week. Absent today, she wanted me to bail her out of jail (that's another whole story!). She told me she needed $200 over the phone, but it turned into $550 before she got out of jail. Strangely enough, even her own father won't bail her out of jail. _I wonder what that should be telling me?_

Oh yeah, she failed to put a $100 bill into the cashbox _yesterday_, and hasn't logged any cash transactions for the last two weeks. While speaking to her over the jail telephone this morning, she denied ever being given that one hundred dollar bill. Later, we found the bill under her desk calendar with a couple of other sticky notes attached to it. Well, at least she didn't steal the money. She just didn't do her job.

Incidentally, I only gave her enough bail money to be covered by her current wages.


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## mckeetree (Dec 4, 2008)

I pay a little better so I get a little better. Only fired 5 or 6 guys in the past 22 years. And my retention is good. I always do something for everybody at Xmas and I have even co-signed a car note or two. It cost to keep the good ones.


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## (WLL) (Dec 4, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> I pay a little better so I get a little better. Only fired 5 or 6 guys in the past 22 years. And my retention is good. I always do something for everybody at Xmas and I have even co-signed a car note or two. It cost to keep the good ones.


:agree2:


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 6, 2008)

lxt said:


> we are seen as semi skilled labor because many enter this trade with a pickup truck & no biz sense!! well its gonna get worse!!
> 
> as far as kids being hired & drag brush for $8 hr & they should get more or pay em more scenario...... what a bunch of BS, my daughters in college & does all her own stuff just like the poster said....however She will work for $8 hr money is money & this attitude of start me at the top & keep moving me up higher is crazy!!
> 
> ...



Part of the difficulty in generating employee loyalty comes from media reports of companies laying off thousands of employees and then the CEO gets a big bonus.

The big corporations (in general) have not demonstrated a lot of loyalty to their people which has led to a great deal of cynicism among the lower level employees. IMHO it leads to an me first attitude. This attitude is reinforced by many athletes, such as TO, Plaxico Burress, Chad Johnson.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 6, 2008)

epicklein22 said:


> The tree company I worked for this past summer went through 3 or 4 people in just a few months.



That is what i mean by winnow the chaff. fi they do not work in the probie period tell them thanks, but no thanks....after youv'e hired someone else.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 6, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> The big corporations (in general) have not demonstrated a lot of loyalty to their people which has led to a great deal of cynicism among the lower level employees.



I think it is mostly that people do not understand the physical nature of the job, and/or really don not know what they want to do. Seems like very few people who start in the trade stick with it for a very long time.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I think it is mostly that people do not understand the physical nature of the job, and/or really don not know what they want to do. Seems like very few people who start in the trade stick with it for a very long time.



The nature of promoting nephews,cousins and buddies in corporations
I understand very well and hate.


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## lxt (Dec 6, 2008)

tree mds, I dont really find firing people that enjoyable unless they`re just a plain loser from the get go!!

the kid has ambition a smart mouth and very little commonsense as far as life, work, business, taxes, & just plain making a living are concerned!!

I could fire him...Yep & then hire another one worse, better or the same! as far as showing up, doing what he`s told (only when told) goes he does so so! he is just always thinking about how much less he could do to make more!! I told him you are in the wrong line of work....you need to be a politician!

I kinda do things from "feel" he`s not a total waste, but is he able to come around? not meaning to do everything the way I want it done but just in general work ethic... no one but me does it the way I want it done & even then Ill learn I should of done it differently from time to time!!

Ill see & feel it out, better to give someone a chance & watch them better themselves than to fire them when maybe they were just starting to come around, either way.....it will happen after the first of the year Im not gonna fire anyone this time of year!!


LXT...............


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## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2008)

lxt said:


> tree mds, I dont really find firing people that enjoyable unless they`re just a plain loser from the get go!!
> 
> the kid has ambition a smart mouth and very little commonsense as far as life, work, business, taxes, & just plain making a living are concerned!!
> 
> ...



I never enjoy firing anyone unless they are mistaking kindness for weakness
then it's game on! I once had a guy hire on when I was a foreman for power
line trimming. He went through the ten mile application peed in the cup and
worked his azz off running with brush etc and said I love this job I can't
wait for Monday. Monday comes around then Tuesday, Wednesday no
call no show so I typed up a lengthy retirement letter and sent it to him
with his one day check + 25 cent retirement


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 6, 2008)

My ex super once told me to be happy to keep 1 in 10 over a year.


In this industry, you have to want it. 

Something has to burn from within, fuel the fire.

Then you have to be able to apply it, and get some traction to make it go.

It takes heart, mind, body, and soul.

The problem with most of today's youth is that their every aspect is poisoned to some degree or another.

Their reality is artificial, their imagination...spoon fed. Their drive in disarray, soul short circuited, and physique fizzled.


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## (WLL) (Dec 6, 2008)

it is much harder to find a good honest fair paying employer than it is to find a good honest hard working young man. i know a fair amount of good young men including myself that just cant find and employer on the same level. stop looking for inexperienced young slaves and start paying for some good help otherwise stop & sh the f ^, go do it by yourself. look @ it like your saving money


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 6, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> it is much harder to find a good honest fair paying employer than it is to find a good honest hard working young man. i know a fair amount of good young men including myself that just cant find and employer on the same level. stop looking for inexperienced young slaves and start paying for some good help otherwise stop & sh the f ^, go do it by yourself. look @ it like your saving money



Every crew needs the occasional inexperienced young slave. 

I'm looking to go out on my own this next year. I'm hoping to be that good honest fair paying employer...because they are indeed hard to find.

I'll require something in return. That is one of the concerns of this thread, finding something worth paying for.

Working on the side this year has taught me a great deal. I have a good crew during the week, but they are inclined to be prima donnas on the weekend and attempt to wage the dog with their hit and miss availability.

Calling in cause they need to watch the dog for the parents (when the college girl friend is in town) and what not, doesn't cut it to complete contracts on time.

So they thought they could put me, and the contracts I worked hard to get for us, off to another weekend more convenient. Well, I went out and subbed some help and did what I had to on my own to git er done.

Now, you can tell they are a little salty cause I didn't wait on them to grace me with their presence...and that bit of extra cash they thought was in the wing is in my bank account and invested in equipment.

You snooze, you lose.

Good help when they want to be there, useless when they are not. And I was paying them twice what they are worth as groundies. They could make more on the weekend than during the week!

Thus paying the good help good money is sometimes a shot in the dark as well. Does it make them fat, dumb, and happy? A little too aloof?

I worked an inexperienced "slave" for quite a bit less and got more done with him.

Why? Because he wanted it.


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I know it is hard to find a good worker but if you have too much of a
> pattern of firing the problem could lie with your management skill!
> I am not saying it did, does, just that trends are what is looked at
> to determine problems and 18 workers fired is a trend toward you
> ...



Ropes? R U O K ?


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## Wiredp (Dec 7, 2008)

*Generational Change*

In the past couple days of being laid off by the tree company that I have been working for I was thinking. I feel that one of the reason it is hard for you guys to get good help is because in our society these days there is the push for everyone to go to college. That wasn't always the case, but it is in my generation. That means that even kids who might after high school have just gone to work for a tree company have been pushed to go to college. Many of these people would be those motivated groundies who see this as the career they want and serve as great employees. They no longer are taking that avenue because everybody has to go to college. I went to college, the reason I do this is because I want to learn, but to be honest I can't afford to do it. With the high cost of college, after school it is hard for kids to take that bottom level job. I am not trying to make it seem like every jackass kid out there should be wanting higher pay just that some of us have no choice. 

Disclaimer:
This is in no way intended to make it seem like all tree folk or dumb because I am sure that many of you are smarter then I am. I know that most of you have a set of skills that I don't and I am envious of that fact. I hope this does not come across wrong but I would be interested to know how many tree folks went to college. The company I worked for had both types the old timer who didn't go to college and learned it all in the field and his son who went to college for urban forestry. 

I just feel that there was a change where people don't respect the manual trades anymore and that this field is losing people because of it. It is no longer acceptable just to be a hard working guy (or lady) anymore.


 I am sorry that I did not express that very well, but I hope you start to understand what I am saying.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 7, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Ropes? R U O K ?



y r u


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## lxt (Dec 7, 2008)

Wiredp said:


> In the past couple days of being laid off by the tree company that I have been working for I was thinking. I feel that one of the reason it is hard for you guys to get good help is because in our society these days there is the push for everyone to go to college. That wasn't always the case, but it is in my generation. That means that even kids who might after high school have just gone to work for a tree company have been pushed to go to college. Many of these people would be those motivated groundies who see this as the career they want and serve as great employees. They no longer are taking that avenue because everybody has to go to college. I went to college, the reason I do this is because I want to learn, but to be honest I can't afford to do it. With the high cost of college, after school it is hard for kids to take that bottom level job. I am not trying to make it seem like every jackass kid out there should be wanting higher pay just that some of us have no choice.
> 
> Disclaimer:
> This is in no way intended to make it seem like all tree folk or dumb because I am sure that many of you are smarter then I am. I know that most of you have a set of skills that I don't and I am envious of that fact. I hope this does not come across wrong but I would be interested to know how many tree folks went to college. The company I worked for had both types the old timer who didn't go to college and learned it all in the field and his son who went to college for urban forestry.
> ...




Came across Fine!! & I do agree with you, today emphasis is put on college..I know cause my Daughter is in college & I push education hard!! For girls/women its kinda different I guess, I mean how many want to do tree work?

the trades are not pushed so hard cause those of us in them see & know whats coming!! work harder for less, always givebacks to keep your job & not to mention illegals undermining the pay!!, etc.. So even we push college onto our kids not wanting them to end up like us!

in many ways its not this generations fault.....it`s the parents fault!! always wanting better for their kids..............Its gonna change soon!


LXT............


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## ropensaddle (Dec 7, 2008)

lxt said:


> Came across Fine!! & I do agree with you, today emphasis is put on college..I know cause my Daughter is in college & I push education hard!! For girls/women its kinda different I guess, I mean how many want to do tree work?
> 
> the trades are not pushed so hard cause those of us in them see & know whats coming!! work harder for less, always givebacks to keep your job & not to mention illegals undermining the pay!!, etc.. So even we push college onto our kids not wanting them to end up like us!
> 
> ...



The truth is college students end up having to work if
there is no suited other white color jobs. Education has ruined the
world in my opinion for instance nuclear,bio warfare is just a matter 
of time before some turban wearing radical uses a dirty bomb on our
society! If everyone would have been more like Indians we would have
been better off. I will not push anything on kids I will just share my experiance that hard work is not as fun as it looks! My grandson
wants to run my business at five I will not encourage it but if his interest
stays focused on it he will get that chance by working and learning
and then inheriting it!


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 7, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> The truth is college students end up having to work if
> there is no suited other white color jobs. Education has ruined the
> world in my opinion for instance nuclear,bio warfare is just a matter
> of time before some turban wearing radical uses a dirty bomb on our
> ...



Sikhs, who are Indian and live in the Punjab, wear turbans. Islamics, who I believe you are slandering, wear other forms of headdress.


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## Bermie (Dec 7, 2008)

No offence taken and I think you made some good points.

I went to Agricultural College after two years of apprenticeship after graduating from an extremely high achieving academic high school. I have also returned to college several times during my career to upgrade my skills or learn something new, and intend to continue education whenever I can.

What's my point? I could have gone into law, or medicine or international business but I preferred to make my career in Horticulture, and now Arboriculture because that's where my interest lay, not 9-5ing in an office. But some people only see my work boots and hiviz shirt, not the understanding and science behind what we do for a career.

I spent four years teaching in the Applied Science division of our local college, yes, I have teaching qualifications, the trades are always seen as the poor stepchildren and WHY? Who builds the big swanky office buildings, installs the drywall, the plumbing, electricity, security, fire control systems, HVAC, the inter/intranet communications systems, the interior and exterior landscaping...and who do they call when it all goes wrong? NOT the accountant or lawyer!!!! Its a different skill set, applied, and JUST as valuable.

There is a place for everyone in society and I have a BIG pet peeve with those who say...'oh well he's not very academic so he can get a trade.' What, a tradesman doesn't have to read, comprehend, estimate, imagine, visualize, build, maintain, repair...if you saw some of the numpties we got sent to Tech Hall...couldn't read a rule, sort out a box of socket heads, almost unable to fill out an application form, all because they were deemed 'not academic' so go learn a trade. We even got told that physics was not a necessary course for Tech students to take...are you kidding me? These kids were failed by the system...deemed not academic and so allowed to fail or had expectaions lowered and consequently fell through the cracks...real sad, because it is a huge shock when they come to learn a trade either on the job or at a college and realize they still need maths, science, and english to get ahead! 

Every child needs a good grounding in the basics, and some will 'get it' much better if they can do something applied rather than something abstract. It doesn't mean they are not as intelligent, just a different skill set and they all need to feel valued whatever choice they make for a career. A good grounding will serve well for your entire life, whether you start by going to college or take 20 years before you go, or are a self starter entrepreneur.

I could go on, but suffice to say we all have the 'problem' of overcoming the stereotype of the dirty tradesman, as if somehow being sweaty and covered in sawdust and oil means you have no brains or somehow were an 'academic underachiever'. 
The average suit wearing office worker has no concept of the myriad of things we must comprehend and understand to do our jobs, and whether you got it on-the-job or stated at a college, its an intellegence JUST as valuable as theirs!
For that matter a lot of kids don't get it either, this is NOT a career you can just pick up in a few weeks or months, which was the start of this thread...

Sorry, kinda went on a rant there...I have been involved with trades education for 10 years...still battling the 'perceived' stigma...


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## (WLL) (Dec 7, 2008)

now we are moving in the direction, lots of good stuff in here people


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## ropensaddle (Dec 8, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Sikhs, who are Indian and live in the Punjab, wear turbans. Islamics, who I believe you are slandering, wear other forms of headdress.



Let me rephrase American Indians but I still feel the same
about the foreigner's I know many don't share my feelings
but we should have kept them all out in modern times.
Why because we should take care of native people first
and because it sets the stage for biological agent being
released by allowing such a free border.


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## oldugly (Dec 13, 2008)

This generation starting into the work force right now has more potential for greatness than any, since those who witnessed their parents in the great depression. 

They are smarter than we were, more educational opportunities, ask better questions of our society, and more entreprenurial (excuse the spelling please) than we could have ever dreamed. The problem is they see the world as an open canvas for themselves to paint their personal masterpieces, and this gets in the way of us old timers who see the value of hard work and experience.

In the trade profession much can be learned through the educational system and it is great to see Bermie taking such an active role in this, but much needs to be learned through the toil and trials us old timers have endured. The kids today, (apologies to anyone under 30) have grown up with the internet, "instant information" cable news, "instant opinion", and instant credit. It is a small wonder they see a job they CAN learn as something they feel confident they already know. In many ways their confidence is inspiring, yet many times frustrating, because they do not understand the costs, (time, experience, physical wear and tear, and financial) because they see only the paycheck.

The trick is to educate, not condemn, evaluate and not criticize. Their values are different because their lives were different. Most of them never have seen a time when there were 40 applicants for 1 job opening that paid very little over minimum wage. The best thing that can happen to these kids is to fail. Hopefully parents are there to help when it happens.

The young men and women I have seen that have failed at business are some of the most industrious, hard working, and valuable employees ever. This generation has such an opportunity to be great...but of course it depends on how they use it.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 13, 2008)

oldugly said:


> It is a small wonder they see a job they CAN learn as something they feel confident they already know.



You're a smart man. This is something I personally have wrestled with for many years as I've boosted my skills, still do today from time to time to be honest. What drove that home for me was watching my business partner; a smart, hardworking, industrious guy, run a chainsaw. Yeah he can run it, but he doesn't really know HOW to yet if you know what I mean.


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## oldugly (Dec 14, 2008)

I am not really a smart man, just hopeful of our future. The younger generation who got blasted pretty well on this thread need to be understood, and sometimes even parented by their supervisors, in regards to learning work ethics, and job related performance issues.

I lost my dad at 14, left home and hitch-hiked around awhile at 16, always worked for a living...and learned how to work, and work hard from my employers/bosses/supervisors. I was always fortunate enough to have great supervisors, tough, honest, and hardworking. Got fired a few times, sobered me up and only made me a better worker.

This new generation has it all, they just need good coaches out there who will try to understand them, and the guidance they need, and the qualities they have to offer. 

I admit sometimes they seem lazy, but I think more than that they seem confused. They were never told they needed to earn their keep, or that the reason they work for a particular company is to make that company money.

With very little guidance most of the "kids" I know today respond well, and will give you their all. Not only that, but they learn quickly, know how to get more information quicker, and are very willing to bust their butts to get ahead of the game. Sometimes they just need to know, what they don't know. Shown what they need to learn, they usually will respond by learning it and quicker than most of us old timers did.

Most of the time they enter the "trades" because they want to take a short-cut to success, and bypass the educational process. That can be hard to deal with, but once they know the trades, especially our trade requires extensive hands on education, most of the ones I have seen are willing to go for it with amazing drive.

Point is do not expect the younger generation of white kids to be like you, but don't expect them to be much different either. We all grew up in different circumstances, different experiences, and different times. This gives us an amazing diversity in what we have to offer, but also givesd us an amazing challenge in gleaning the best from our diversity.

Young imigrants already know the value of work, having come from a society that pushes labor and earning every dollar, so they appear to be the better work force. (I mean this next statement to no one's offense) Yet their drive for education, and achievement seems to be limited. They are great for the off-the-street physical labor, but to learn the intricacies and physics of the craft they seem less motivated. Maybe because they are less greedy, or maybe because they are satisfied with less. (A generality true, but so is this entire thread).


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## thejdman04 (Dec 14, 2008)

Hell probably be back


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## chucknduck (Dec 15, 2008)

I cut down trees for a living and have a college degree. I chose not to really use it because I like to work, and would go crazy in an office all day!


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## custom8726 (Dec 15, 2008)

I spent 5 years going to college 4 nights a week after doing tree work all day. I changed majors 4 different times before realizing I am not a psychologist, computer programmer, teacher, etc. etc.. I finished up in buisness and am still paying back student loans:censored: I love being outside and in a different place every day and would not trade it for a 9-5 desk job for twice the money. We get lots of younger guys in and not one has lasted more then a few months, The guys in there mid to late 30's and 40's seem to stick around longer in general.


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## Slvrmple72 (Dec 16, 2008)

I am 36 and have been doing tree work for profit for about 7 years now. I use the firewood to heat my house and keep me from getting bored during the winter. I am pretty much self taught and have built good ties with the professionals in my area. I will be finishing a tech degree next year and finishing up a b.s.m.e. while the economy gets its chit together. I doubt I will ever stop doing tree work while I am still physically able. I have worked with guys younger and older, smarter and moronic, lazy and hardworking, some have been trapped by poor personal choices, bull-headedness, etc. but I have always been able to teach and share with those willing to learn. I have had the privelage to pick up a few things along the way by my seniors too. I have dealt with enough fellas at all ages to think that age isn't the biggest factor but will admit that some of the younger guys are real characters!


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## SLlandscape (Dec 16, 2008)

I know this is long but hear me out o.k.
I've read some of this thread here and there. I can honestly say that I agree with some of you on the subject of being ashamed to be in the generation of 20 year olds. What sickens me more is the 2 generations before and after me. Out of the 82 people in my graduating class of 2006, I can name 20-30 including myself that are good hard working people. We are the only ones who have not gotten in trouble with the law to some degree or drink and smoke and do drugs and actually have personal goals that we want to meet in our life. The rest of our class is a bunch of preppy, whiny, worthless, bunch that will accomplish nothing in life. Oh yeah, THEY ARE ALSO ATTACHED TO THEIR F'ING CELL PHONES ALL [email protected] DAY. I turn 21 in 2 weeks, and I can confidently say that I'm happy with my decision to start a landscape contracting and arborist company. Yes, I've had my fair share of bumps along the way, but that's part of learning. I've been doing landscaping since I was 16 and started out with small projects. Today I own several machines, vehicles, and equipment and have 3 part time employees 2 of which are good friends of mine. Recently I started getting more involved with tree work, as I saw an opportunity in my area because there's only a few who are doing it. Those few are hacks who don't care. Slowly, I'm taking their work from them because I do a better job. Some work I have done involved finishing what one guy started and screwed up. As one guy on here put it, I'm tired of being in the lazy 'want the bling' young guys who don't care category. And no, I'm not offended by it, but it gets f'ing old hearing it all the time. I take great pride in the work I do, I care ALOT about what other people think of my work. i.e. the way the job site looks during the work, clean up, safety, my tools, and how present myself to the public. One of my workers recently complimented me, when pm day came up, on how I keep all of my machines and tools clean and maintained, and said his previous boss was no like that. I told him, "a business can't run smoothly if your machines are constantly in the shop, and people who drive by the job site notice the cleanliness of your stuff". I especially care alot since 80% of my projects come from 'word of mouth' . And if myself and a client have an issue, I keep working at it until the problem is resolved or go to the next best option. I've been doing landscaping full time since the fall of '06 and this year has been the most profitable. 
For the record I am not ISA certified but have planed to take the exam sometime next fall, nor do I claim to be an arborist (and yes clients are aware of this). Yes, I am using ropes but for the time being I stay low and don't work in areas I'm not comfortable with. After I finish working corn harvest next year with some friends, like I've done every year since the fall of '06, is when I plan to do it. If you want to bash me for being a newb and tell me that I don't know what I'm doing, go ahead. BECAUSE I DON'T GIVE A [email protected], NOT ONE F'ING BIT. trust me I won't lose sleep over it. I have "absorbed" a lot of info over the past 4-5 months and I have a brother in law who has 13 years rock climbing experience and is teaching me tons of techniques and tricks to use while climbing. If you do have any HELPFUL advise for me please feel free to tell me, or pm if you prefer. If you read this whole thing, I thank you for taking the time to do so. I'll get of my soap box now.


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## SLlandscape (Dec 16, 2008)

Now my fingers are cramped. SOB!


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## lxt (Dec 16, 2008)

Well SL, that was pretty long!! look no ones saying all of you are like this, those like you are RARE!!!!!

2nd, I wont bash anyone for trying anything, however your "rock" climbing buddy should know that teaching you climbing & techniques in his hobby are no where near what you will need to know for this profession!!! 

you are young & it would be wise of you to seek out a competent "treeman" to learn from...this you wont regret...doing as you are thinking you probably will!!

either way, Be safe & good luck, BTW....you wont meet the qualifications to take the arborist exam, you will need 3yrs verifiable experience........however you can do what others in your age bracket do to get what they want..LIE!!


LXT...............


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## SLlandscape (Dec 16, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well SL, that was pretty long!! look no ones saying all of you are like this, those like you are RARE!!!!!
> 
> 2nd, I wont bash anyone for trying anything, however your "rock" climbing buddy should know that teaching you climbing & techniques in his hobby are no where near what you will need to know for this profession!!!
> 
> ...



I'm well aware that the majority of rock climbing does not apply to arbor work. What I am getting out of it is time on rope and becoming more familliar with the various knots used and belay and accention technique. I did not mention it but he has done some tree climbing with rope, only not using saws. 
recently a pamplet was mailed to me from the local college (85 miles from me) that does continuing education programs. Inside was a section for ISA. It stated (from what I understand) I can have 2 years of pratical experience or a 2 year or 4 year degree for arbiculture. If They do not accept me at the time then I will try again as soon as I can. 
Sir with all due respect, I am not going to lie just to get my certification faster. As far as seeking out a competent "treeman" Give me a name of an ISA cert. arborist within 1 hour of Dalhart, Texas and I'll kiss your feet. To my knowledge (and I may be wrong, but I am certain) There is not a singal person within reasonable distance of where I live that would be willing to show me some of the technique and skill involved for rope climbing. Hence my saying, for the time being I stay low and do not go into areas I'm not comfortable with until I get more experienced with rope climbing. 
Just to be clear, I've been doing tree work for about a year only a few months ago did I decide to get inlvolved with the rope climbing aspect of it. Mainly I have used a portable boom lift but that only goes so far (i.e. back yards & tight areas).

Quote- "either way, Be safe & good luck" -Thank you lxt. One of my friends thinks I'm anal about safety. To that I say this. I have not had one single work related injury, nor have any employees in the 3 years I have been landscaping or doing tree work. I make it mandatory that cell phones are to stay off, but kept close by in case of emergency.

I would keep going but I have to leave for the regular meeting at the fire dept. and I would end up with a novel anyway.


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## woodchux (Dec 16, 2008)

You dont need a certified arborist to show you how to climb... just find a treeman that can rope climb without spikes.:monkey:


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## SLlandscape (Dec 16, 2008)

Honestly, I would be willing to pay someone, who has experience, a $100 just to spend a day or day and a half with me and show some of the techniques inlvolved. Currently, when I try something new I stay as low as I can in case of failure (knock on wood) and keep doing the same thing several times until I feel competent enough to go higher. I'm considering trying the VT. I've heard good reports on it so far.


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## SLlandscape (Dec 16, 2008)

woodchux said:


> You dont need a certified arborist to show you how to climb... just find a treeman that can rope climb without spikes.:monkey:



Still have yet to find someone with or without cert. Should have explained better.


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## pdqdl (Dec 17, 2008)

Offer to travel to someone's business to learn, and you will probably get a taker. Especially if you offer to work for free.

My suggestion would be to sign up for some professional training, pay a higher fee, and get a more valuable experience.


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## SLlandscape (Dec 17, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Offer to travel to someone's business to learn, and you will probably get a taker. Especially if you offer to work for free.
> 
> My suggestion would be to sign up for some professional training, pay a higher fee, and get a more valuable experience.



I'll take the option of working for free if that person is willing to give me a chance. My problem right now is time of year. My probation period for the fire dept. ends in june and between mid august and the end of october I work the corn harvest pushing silage and hmc around the Tx panhandle with some people I have known for several years. That money is WAY to good to pass up. Insane hours though when pushing.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 17, 2008)

SLlandscape said:


> I'll take the option of working for free if that person is willing to give me a chance. My problem right now is time of year. My probation period for the fire dept. ends in june and between mid august and the end of october I work the corn harvest pushing silage and hmc around the Tx panhandle with some people I have known for several years. That money is WAY to good to pass up. Insane hours though when pushing.



Sell a high end job and hire a climber to help you do it!


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## SLlandscape (Dec 18, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Sell a high end job and hire a climber to help you do it!



As far as I know I'm the only person that is doing tree climbing within 4 hours of where I live. I think there is a co. an hour from me jsut found out about them today. I'm gonna check into tomarrow. Biggest job I've had yet was 2 45 foot elms on a small empty lot where they wanted to build a shop. Used a boom lift for it. Topped both to about 14' high, then got the CAT 966G and pushed them over taking the roots and all. Easy job, worst part was driving the loader through the neighborhood.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2008)

SLlandscape said:


> As far as I know I'm the only person that is doing tree climbing within 4 hours of where I live. I think there is a co. an hour from me jsut found out about them today. I'm gonna check into tomarrow. Biggest job I've had yet was 2 45 foot elms on a small empty lot where they wanted to build a shop. Used a boom lift for it. Topped both to about 14' high, then got the CAT 966G and pushed them over taking the roots and all. Easy job, worst part was driving the loader through the neighborhood.



Not really what I meant, I meant sell a high end job
meaning one that pays a very substantial rate and then
ask for one of these gents to help! I know your probably
out in the tumble weed I have trimmed there and large 
trees are scarce and only in town. The people love those
trees however and some plant pecan which is a high end job
and very hard climbing requiring limb walking to great distances
and care taken because they are weak wooded! Sell it
for enough to cover the cost of someone taking the road trip
to tumbleweed manor and see if ya can't get a taker!


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## SLlandscape (Dec 18, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Not really what I meant, I meant sell a high end job
> meaning one that pays a very substantial rate and then
> ask for one of these gents to help! I know your probably
> out in the tumble weed I have trimmed there and large
> ...



I know what ya meant rope, I just explained a little further using a previous job as example. Sorry if I cornfused ya.We definitely have a FEW HUGE trees and yes the're in town. Depending on what part of town yur in the trees can be even bigger but that's rare. And as you said most people want them, as long as the're healthy. Thanks for the suggestion rope, Yur a good man.
Out in the tumble weed? Good God man, the only thing that blocks the wind here is the barbed wire and cows. haha. Yeah most of our trees are in town. Outside of town they are pretty small, or were planted next to houses on farms years ago.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2008)

SLlandscape said:


> I know what ya meant rope, I just explained a little further using a previous job as example. Sorry if I cornfused ya.We definitely have a FEW HUGE trees and yes the're in town. Depending on what part of town yur in the trees can be even bigger but that's rare. And as you said most people want them, as long as the're healthy. Thanks for the suggestion rope, Yur a good man.
> Out in the tumble weed? Good God man, the only thing that blocks the wind here is the barbed wire and cows. haha. Yeah most of our trees are in town. Outside of town they are pretty small, or were planted next to houses on farms years ago.



Still not quite my meaning but closer I mean high end trimming
on a real nice pecan! Sure you may learn more about rigging
on a huge take down but if it is fine pruning you will learn more
about arbor care and see more climbing skill! Maybe you could
sell both a rigging job and a pruning job now get busy and sell
some work friend


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## SLlandscape (Dec 18, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Still not quite my meaning but closer I mean high end trimming
> on a real nice pecan! Sure you may learn more about rigging
> on a huge take down but if it is fine pruning you will learn more
> about arbor care and see more climbing skill! Maybe you could
> ...



Most of the trim jobs I've had were raises and getting rid of the smaller dead or dying limbs, and fine pruning here and there. In our area, the main concern is getting rid of dead or dying limbs, hangers and somtimes, but not often, the whole tree because of the insane winds. regardless if it's a sod job, paver stone patio, tree trim, fence or ect. I try to do the best job possible. Haven't trimmed a pecan yet. Would like to though some day. So far Iv'e trimmed every other kind of tree here. Now that I think about it, I have seen only 1 pecan tree in the 16 yrs I've lived here.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2008)

SLlandscape said:


> Most of the trim jobs I've had were raises and getting rid of the smaller dead or dying limbs, and fine pruning here and there. In our area, the main concern is getting rid of dead or dying limbs, hangers and somtimes, but not often, the whole tree because of the insane winds. regardless if it's a sod job, paver stone patio, tree trim, fence or ect. I try to do the best job possible. Haven't trimmed a pecan yet. Would like to though some day. So far Iv'e trimmed every other kind of tree here. Now that I think about it, I have seen only 1 pecan tree in the 16 yrs I've lived here.



I seen one in sweet water that was grafted into four
different pecan's so they are there! No topiary's?
crown reductions, structure pruning, thins come
on people that care about there trees need them
trimmed right? Sell them pard those oil barrens gots the 
dough:monkey:


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## SLlandscape (Dec 18, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I seen one in sweet water that was grafted into four
> different pecan's so they are there! No topiary's?
> crown reductions, structure pruning, thins come
> on people that care about there trees need them
> ...



I don't know if it the climate or personal preference but that's the only .... hold that thought fire dept pager goin off see ya later rope.


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## fishercat (Dec 19, 2008)

*i would have paid to see the look.............*



lxt said:


> Well the season for me is coming to a close, down to 1 weeks worth of work, must say I had a pretty good year business wise & am very thankful!
> 
> however one of my young guns informed me that; "I think im ready to go out on my own" Dude he says...you make a killing & I want some of that Bling!!
> 
> ...



on your face when he still wanted $350.the look on his face would have been even better when you handed him $3.50.


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## SLlandscape (Dec 20, 2008)

SLlandscape said:


> I don't know if it the climate or personal preference but that's the only .... hold that thought fire dept pager goin off see ya later rope.



Okay... as I was saying, I don't know if its climate or personal preference but that's the only one I've seen. 
Back to the 'bling' thing. I had a kid that was a freshman in high school help me this past summer and wanted more "bling". He thought I wasn't paying him enough for the work he was doing. I ended the conversation by saying, "you've worked for me for 3 weeks. Until you learn more about the actual work and learn to operate more of the machines this is the pay you get." I fired him 2 weeks later because he thought he could run the 5103. even though he had never even sat in the driver seat. What did he do you ask? He had no idea how to use the wheel brakes and took out a section of the HO's fence when the tractor was in the back yard. He came back from lunch early before I did, and thought it would be a good idea to move the tractor to the other side of the yard and get the next large rock (also called a BOULDER) to be used for the retaining wall. He did not turn sharp enough, hence the reason for wheel brakes, and took out a 10 foot section of fence.


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## m.green (Dec 20, 2008)

some people learn quicker than others. First off, a professional wouldn't say "duuudddee" not to his boss unless they were close and definitely not to a homeowner.

I'm 22 years old and have succesfully removed trees 70 ft. tall 5 feet away from roof tops. I have brought in huge cranes to remove trees down a cliff near a pond. In the busy season I drop on a good day (depending on job) 12 trees. 

Right now I'd say I drop 3 trees a day. I'd rather remove then prune but I do also prune. I guess I am smarter then the kid you are speaking of perhaps.


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## Wiredp (Dec 20, 2008)

*Social Restructuring*

I think a related problem is that our social programs are set up to help the lower class not the middle class struggling to suceed. I have been looking at the Job Corps website, but when I talked with someone I was amazed. My estimate that I make 15,000 dollars a year might be too much money and I wouldn't qualify. I know I need more training to be marketable especially with these troubling times, but like many I cannot afford it. Why is 15,000 dollars too much to qualify for help? The government needs to restructure their social programs so that it no longer allows people to manipulate the system and use that money for something actually beneficial like providing career training to the unemployed (I am not unemployed), but feel that with the rising rates this would be a very good use of the funds that we should repo from people like the one listed below.

My girlfriend told me about a coworkers daughter who was having a baby every 2 years so that she could keep getting assistance. This is not intended to shun those that are trying to make good for themselves and their children, but I know that is why she is doing it. She is 20 and has 5 kids by 3 different baby daddies. We need to find these type of exploiters and throw them off our rolls.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2008)

Wiredp said:


> I think a related problem is that our social programs are set up to help the lower class not the middle class struggling to suceed. I have been looking at the Job Corps website, but when I talked with someone I was amazed. My estimate that I make 15,000 dollars a year might be too much money and I wouldn't qualify. I know I need more training to be marketable especially with these troubling times, but like many I cannot afford it. Why is 15,000 dollars too much to qualify for help? The government needs to restructure their social programs so that it no longer allows people to manipulate the system and use that money for something actually beneficial like providing career training to the unemployed (I am not unemployed), but feel that with the rising rates this would be a very good use of the funds that we should repo from people like the one listed below.
> 
> My girlfriend told me about a coworkers daughter who was having a baby every 2 years so that she could keep getting assistance. This is not intended to shun those that are trying to make good for themselves and their children, but I know that is why she is doing it. She is 20 and has 5 kids by 3 different baby daddies. We need to find these type of exploiters and throw them off our rolls.



Well from what I know that program is set up for at risk youth to try and change some of our social problems! I am certain it fails on many of them but if it helps any to become productive citizens then it would be worth the effort. I also am certain it would be a very hard job imo to deal with some of them and not:censored: My hat is off to them.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2008)

Social problems, assistance, No Pecans in Texas!-Seriously? Massive Pecans in Texas-- 
Jeff Lovstrom-Confused


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## (WLL) (Dec 20, 2008)

so i gave him a raise and told him he's gonna need ta earn his bling! lmao




[/IMG]


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## SLlandscape (Dec 21, 2008)

jefflovstrom said:


> Social problems, assistance, No Pecans in Texas!-Seriously? Massive Pecans in Texas--
> Jeff Lovstrom-Confused



No, just here. I have seen them else where in Texas. Just not here. Majority is REALLY OLD elms with dutch elm disease. The rest is oak an evergreen. Ocassionally I see somehthing that is not as "Abundant" in other parts of town. Example; In my neighboor hood cottons woods out number other trees
10 - 4 On the other side of town in a different neighboor hood elms out number other trees 10 -2. It's friggin weird.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2008)

SLlandscape said:


> No, just here. I have seen them else where in Texas. Just not here. Majority is REALLY OLD elms with dutch elm disease. The rest is oak an evergreen. Ocassionally I see somehthing that is not as "Abundant" in other parts of town. Example; In my neighboor hood cottons woods out number other trees
> 10 - 4 On the other side of town in a different neighboor hood elms out number other trees 10 -2. It's friggin weird.



It is the desert lol!


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## treemandan (Dec 21, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> so i gave him a raise and told him he's gonna need ta earn his bling! lmao
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]



You do that again and I will hit you with this


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## treemandan (Dec 21, 2008)

That was a precious story IXT. Thanks for sharing. It must have made us all feel better.
I was doing this for a long time before I thought I could. I still am very wary.


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## KodiakKen (Dec 21, 2008)

*just a reply*

if you get this far after 9 pages..scenario. work partner calls me on my day off around 11 a.m. hey do you want some oak? holy fukkkkk yeah..duh..do you need your meds. well it is at this address..a contractor cut it and wants someone else to haul it. no problem..I will be there in 20 min. well I call this contractor ... no answer ..voicemail is full. hmmm...that is either GREAT or terrible..regardless.free oak on the ground. so I call and call..finally. he answers. heard about the oak on such and such....yeah..do you have a big saw..I say...I have a couple. how big is it? well what do you have...hmmm...gets me to thinking...I have a 32" well he is going to meet me there...oh shi*...this is getting deep. well he has a crew that has nothing. a beat to hell huskie and a poulan to carry up the tree. uh oh..what did I get into. well I went over for the oak...carried 3 cords out and let my saw cut down one sycamore for "his company" and called it quits. I think I made out. I was every where my saws were. used my gas and bar oil..3 cords for maybe 2 hours of cutting...I just think that if you want something done right. do it your damn self. if you get someone that works...pay them what they are worth. if they are worthless..get rid of them. they are only going to cause you grief. best of luck. I am not insured. but I can beat most of the places around here...and I let them know from day one that I am not insured..most of the work I do is friends of friends. we could work something out "if" it went wrong. I try not to cut out the big guys if they are descent.. I personally know 3 of the big contractors here and farm them work if I can't find time to do it. best of luck in todays world finding good workers that earn what they want!


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