# I'm throwing in the towel.



## TomSawyer (Jun 26, 2008)

Gentlemen (and ladies)

I am giving up on my business, Tom Sawyer's Tree Service. 

I gave it the old college try, but it did not work out. I have to hand it to those of you that have been in business for many years, this is a tough racket. I am selling everything I have built up over the past few years and going back to school. Thanks to the members of this site for all the help and motivation!

You can pick through the bones at:

www.ts################

No advertising.


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## treemandan (Jun 26, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> Gentlemen (and ladies)
> 
> I am giving up on my business, Tom Sawyer's Tree Service.
> 
> ...



If you have no adversity I would like to ask a bunch of questions about you , your business and what it was exactly that made you think its better to stop. here is a question: What is it that made you think that tree work would be a good business for a businessman?
I would say" sorry to hear about it buddy" but I am not sure I should or if I am. All in all you know better than me.


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## Brush Hog (Jun 26, 2008)

Sorry to hear your cashing in the chips but nothing in life comes easy.


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## pdqdl (Jun 26, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

I am curious: would you say that you were put out of business by adverse conditions (employees, competition, market trends, expenses, lack of business acumen, etc.) or would you say that it was some deficiency on your part (inexperience, lack of ambition, no management skills, no organizational skills, etc.)

I would say that I suffer from ALL of the above problems, so I am completely sympathetic.


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## TomSawyer (Jun 26, 2008)

Treemandan,

Sure, I have no problem answering your questions. It came down to this: Tree work is too dangerous for the kind of money that we were making. My foreman and I did quite a few jobs, had a few close calls, and didn't make very much money. I paid close attention to the bidding strategies of others on this page, and I underbid a few, overbid a few, and generally worked my bids to be competitive, but by no means was I a lowballer. Times are tough up here in Northern Michigan, and hugely profitable jobs don't grow on trees. You have to be competitive.
I take safety very seriously, probably due to my time as a Marine Corps aviator. I saw dozens of possibilities for my guys to get hurt/killed, and for me, it just isn't worth it. The money is not that good. I'll start another type of business sometime down the road that doesn't involve such risk.

If you have more questions, shoot!


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## TomSawyer (Jun 26, 2008)

Businesswise, there are two major problems that I saw as a tree service owner. The most serious one is a lack of barriers to entry. You all know as well as I do that the guy with a beat up Nissan hardbody, his trusty Stihl and a climbing rope is out there underbidding you by half. In tough economic times, people are pinching their pennies, and they are going for these dudes. Sure they don't last, but isn't there always someone waiting to take their place?

Secondly, I don't think I got much help from the economy here in Northern Michigan.

I took a vacation and thought about these two problems along with the risk problem discussed above, and I made the decision to try again with something else some other day. Discretion can be the better part of valor, or so I once heard.

I have enjoyed this board, though


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## TomSawyer (Jun 26, 2008)

I never answered your first question Treemandan. I got into it with my foreman, who was a line clearance man for Trees Inc. Good dude, and he helped me build my house. I had some problem trees in my yard and he took care of them no sweat, it was fun to watch. 
I am good with equipment (maintenance, repairs, etc) and I had some capital. I intended to start a biofuels business, but this seemed like less capital outlay. We started to go into it as partners, but I had been warned countless times not to do this, so we didn't. I put up the dough, and it was my business, with him as my foreman. The business failed but in hindsight, had I done the biofuels thing, I would have been crushed by the rising cost of vegetable oil. You lose some, you lose some, I guess!


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm curious about some things, here: How did you prepare yourself, education-wise, for getting into our biz? What kind of money, as in a per year figure net for yourself, did you set out to make? What kind of physical shape were you in before you started your company versus the shape you're in now? What kind of experience did you have running any other small business before you got into the trees? Thanks for your time in answering the above.


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## secureland (Jun 27, 2008)

There's a constant escalator of cheap labor, beat that. If you think our food is expensive now, get rid of the cheap labor and see what you think.

Arborists are not merely laborers, but many don't realize that, and many do their own "training"

Bill


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 27, 2008)

Man, I just checked out what you're selling. Yow! How many years did it take you to amass this equipment? That is, how long were you in the biz? How much money did you sink into your company to start it? You didn't start out with all of this stuff, right?


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 27, 2008)

Don't quit now...you are just getting started.

In any field, it's not going to be easy, especially at first.

As far as the risk is concerned, you're taking risks just stepping out into traffic, but you are accustom to those close calls, right?

Maybe you just need a new foreman.

Have you examined just exactly why things aren't panning out with the numbers? Why so many close calls?

If the numbers and close calls went the other way would you stay in the game?


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## windthrown (Jun 27, 2008)

My brother and I were run out of the tree and landscape biz over 20 years ago down in sunny California. By Mexicans. Lots and lots of Mexicans, with Echo chainsaws. Cheep, cheap and cheaper. They will butcher any kind of tree for cheap. No problem. The trees will all have the same resulting shape. Never mind the spur system and central leader pruning on fruit trees. Prune them like a lemon tree! Pines? Hey, who cares if they do not have any buds to form new branches. Just prune them like lemon trees! Hey, they can stump prune everything and get away with it! Why? Because they are :censored: cheap! 

And no one elected in this country seems to be willing to do anything about the invasion from south of the border. Big companies want CHEAP labor. Farms around here want CHEAP labor. They all want CHEAP labor, but no one wants to pay for their education, housing, or medical expenes. Yah, pass those expenses along to the tax payers, while we pay them DIRT CHEAP WAGES. *sigh* Sorry, I have to rant about that one... :taped:


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## gitrdun_climbr (Jun 27, 2008)

Alot of unknown variables. In terms of risk, there shouldn't be alot of closecalls unless your climber/foreman/captain isn't running the jobsite correctly. If everyone onsite sticks to their safety protocol the jobs become much less dangerous, though never hazard free of course.

As for the numbers, like you say, it may just be a geographical thing. I've heard Michigan's economy is suffering pretty bad right now. I know you guys have alot of trees up there though. What all services did you company offer? I think the 'removal specialists' are having a particularly hard time of it.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 27, 2008)

windthrown said:


> My brother and I were run out of the tree and landscape biz over 20 years ago down in sunny California. By Mexicans. Lots and lots of Mexicans, with Echo chainsaws. Cheep, cheap and cheaper. They will butcher any kind of tree for cheap. No problem. The trees will all have the same resulting shape. Never mind the spur system and central leader pruning on fruit trees. Prune them like a lemon tree! Pines? Hey, who cares if they do not have any buds to form new branches. Just prune them like lemon trees! Hey, they can stump prune everything and get away with it! Why? Because they are :censored: cheap!
> 
> And no one elected in this country seems to be willing to do anything about the invasion from south of the border. Big companies want CHEAP labor. Farms around here want CHEAP labor. They all want CHEAP labor, but no one wants to pay for their education, housing, or medical expenes. Yah, pass those expenses along to the tax payers, while we pay them DIRT CHEAP WAGES. *sigh* Sorry, I have to rant about that one... :taped:



LOL....now I have another response to give the birdies as they mock me in the morning..... *"I'm not cheap, I say! I'm no mexicano lemon tree pruner!"*


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 27, 2008)

Hey Tom....I went to you website right there in your profile. 

I noticed you specialize in removals. This reinforces my theory that you might be better off hiring another foreman that possesses a broader spectrum of abilities and knowledge that would in turn transform your service into a total tree care company.

Now, I don't mean to hack on your ex-clearance guy. I have no doubts he is a good man well versed in removal techniques. You could even keep him...if he's willing to work with someone that would stretch his mind and teach him more.

Just my thoughts. Oh yeah and no more under bidding....if you are going to error, error on the side of profits. Also, do you work with the crew? Do they hustle? Work smart? safe?

I dunno man...just hate to see a guy that has come so far, invested so much in such a choice profession...quit.


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## mckeetree (Jun 27, 2008)

windthrown said:


> My brother and I were run out of the tree and landscape biz over 20 years ago down in sunny California. By Mexicans. Lots and lots of Mexicans, with Echo chainsaws. Cheep, cheap and cheaper. They will butcher any kind of tree for cheap. No problem. The trees will all have the same resulting shape. Never mind the spur system and central leader pruning on fruit trees. Prune them like a lemon tree! Pines? Hey, who cares if they do not have any buds to form new branches. Just prune them like lemon trees! Hey, they can stump prune everything and get away with it! Why? Because they are :censored: cheap!
> 
> And no one elected in this country seems to be willing to do anything about the invasion from south of the border. Big companies want CHEAP labor. Farms around here want CHEAP labor. They all want CHEAP labor, but no one wants to pay for their education, housing, or medical expenes. Yah, pass those expenses along to the tax payers, while we pay them DIRT CHEAP WAGES. *sigh* Sorry, I have to rant about that one... :taped:



You are right on target there. They want cheap labor but nobody wants to pay for all the social problems that come with cheap, cheap labor. Especially illegal labor. Mexicans running you out may sound funny to some of the northern guys in this forum but just wait they will eventually make it up there.


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## gink595 (Jun 27, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> You are right on target there. They want cheap labor but nobody wants to pay for all the social problems that come with cheap, cheap labor. Especially illegal labor. Mexicans running you out may sound funny to some of the northern guys in this forum but just wait they will eventually make it up there.



Are you kidding me, I've been to Texas right there in Terrel east of Dallas, the company I work for has a plant there. I visited it once, I thought holy hell look at all these mexicans, A few years later at home back in Indiana holy hell look at all these mexicans. It doesn't sound funny these people are like coch roaches they have made it through the foundation and are now in the heartland, we need the Orkin man in office and exterminate this problem before our health care is totally :censored: ed due to these free loaders.


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## reachtreeservi (Jun 27, 2008)

Bigus Termitius said:


> LOL....now I have another response to give the birdies as they mock me in the morning..... *"I'm not cheap, I say! I'm no mexicano lemon tree pruner!"*


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## ropensaddle (Jun 27, 2008)

Get out if you can do so! If I could get out without losing 
the farm, I would and it is because our government is against
the American dream for Americans. It has turned to chit every year
seems to get worse and I try to remain optimistic but numbers don't
lie! For some of you in states that have not surrendered to Mexico
it is coming. We also have a training program in our town that trains
at risk youth,good in one aspect bad in another. Good in that some
of these kids would be lost without this training. Bad in that these
kids get out and want to be owners immediately in an already
flooded market. Our market is flooded too the extreme at least
they have had some good training but the market can't support
everyone and just cheapens the pay with all the new startups.
Veterans of tree work have little to look forward to just getting
old and having to be young again as all the resources are aimed
at youth. Experience does not count for chit it seems so if you
are capable of getting out without losing your shirt my hat is off to ya!
If you are like many of us here and invested most of your life savings
and time in this career our prayers are with you. If you are a governor
or some other policriminal do something about the invasion lead follow
or gtfootw.


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## Jumper (Jun 27, 2008)

Best of luck with where ever your future takes you! Consider moving here-we are screaming for workers of all kinds.


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## Treetom (Jun 27, 2008)

Sad to see you go, bro'. Good luck on your re-education efforts.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 27, 2008)

Hmm---Maybe Tom Sawyer was just here to hawk his inventory. He answered a few questions so his motive might be obscured, but since he's apparently no longer with us, I think he was just here to sell off his stuff.


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 27, 2008)

no butty said it was easy tom trees it just want we love


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## mckeetree (Jun 27, 2008)

gink595 said:


> Are you kidding me, I've been to Texas right there in Terrel east of Dallas, the company I work for has a plant there. I visited it once, I thought holy hell look at all these mexicans, A few years later at home back in Indiana holy hell look at all these mexicans. It doesn't sound funny these people are like coch roaches they have made it through the foundation and are now in the heartland, we need the Orkin man in office and exterminate this problem before our health care is totally :censored: ed due to these free loaders.



Well we held them off down here as long as we could. They are loose now and heading everywhere I guess. I only vote for people that are against illegal immigration and that is getting to be fewer and fewer as so many politicians are pro illegal. And you are right, they are closer to bringing health care to it's knees than anybody wants to believe. One of our customers who is the administrator of a large hospital told me last month that the average American would panic if they knew the true seriousness of the Mexican problem. He said we are paying for all their indigent care through higher ins. premiums and higher health care cost. He thought by 2011 the system would collapse if things didn't change. BTW I was in Terrell today to do an estimate.


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## pbtree (Jun 27, 2008)

Dude, I am sorry that you are leaving this tree life, but I do hope you will remain on the site and keep contributing... 

I wish you peace...

Alan


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## TomSawyer (Jun 27, 2008)

Sunriseguy,

I got into this about 2 years ago, and we put together the equipment package over time. As far as how much money I have sunk into it, let's just say FAR more than I could ever realistically hope to get back out of it. Don't waste your tears on me though, that's business. 90 percent of small businesses fold in the first year right? 

To answer some of your other questions, this was my first business. To prepare, I read as much as I could find about the business, and small business in general. I'm a big fan of Robert Kiyosaki's books, the "Rich dad Poor Dad" series. As far as physical shape, I just got out of the Marines, so I was in halfway decent shape, but I would say that I am now in better shape! This is not an office job... 

As far as what I hoped to net for myself, that is a good one. I left this out of the business plan because I think it is like an "economic forecast" or a "hot stock tip" In other words, total crap. How could anyone possibly know what they will gross or net when starting a new business. These wild guesses are not worth the paper they are written on. If businessmen could predetermine which businesses will or will not make money, then they wouldn't bother with the losers would they? 

Any more questions or comments are welcome. Thanks to those who posted.


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## TomSawyer (Jun 27, 2008)

Bigus termitus,

Your advice is appreciated. Having the wrong people in the wrong positions is a recipe for disaster. This cost my squadron commander his command a few years ago. However, my foreman fulfilled his end of the bargain, he did every job I asked him to do, and did them well. The problem was that I couldn't find enough profitable work. I'm interested to hear from anyone else in Northern Michigan. Are we saturated with tree companies up here?


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## gr8scott72 (Jun 27, 2008)

tomtrees58 said:


> no butty said it was easy tom trees it just want we love



Huh?


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## mckeetree (Jun 27, 2008)

The sad thing is many tree service owners have "failed" but they won't quit. I was talking to an owner in Austin, Texas last year and the the subject came up some way. He told me he bet that there was at least 20% of the full time tree service owners in Austin that didn't put $25,000 clear in their pocket a year. If you are one of those guys and you are reading this give up. What are you trying to prove?


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 27, 2008)

That's the thing about a true treeguy with woodchips in his veins, he just don't quit, not for anyone.


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## gink595 (Jun 27, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> Well we held them off down here as long as we could. They are loose now and heading everywhere I guess. I only vote for people that are against illegal immigration and that is getting to be fewer and fewer as so many politicians are pro illegal. And you are right, they are closer to bringing health care to it's knees than anybody wants to believe. One of our customers who is the administrator of a large hospital told me last month that the average American would panic if they knew the true seriousness of the Mexican problem. He said we are paying for all their indigent care through higher ins. premiums and higher health care cost. He thought by 2011 the system would collapse if things didn't change. BTW I was in Terrell today to do an estimate.



Thats funny you said that about the vote. I did the samr thing last election with our district congressmen, Mark Souder. He sent questionairs out to everyone wanting to know their position on the Illegal free loaders and I ended up writting a letter and sending it back to him in the questionair telling him that my vote is going to guy on the toughest immigration laws. I was told a similiar thing about the health care from the hospital about how illegals get a free ticket in the health care, My neighbor was saying that he knows a mexican couple that are US citizens that have health insurance through their work, but when they go to the doctors they speak spanish and the other interpets for them and fake that they are illegals, so they get free heatlh care, when the other is sick they go to a different dr. and do the same thing. I get angry when I hear the BS they can get away with, the crime rate is up due to them, I look in the paper at the police blotters and you see nothing but martinez's and Julio Suave. They have warnings on watching your license plates for theft now. I was looking at moving to Terrell until I visited it, I thought there is no way I will make it here, even though my company is very strict about who they employ, I just don't see speaking spanish in America because I'm forced to, it really should be the other way around.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 27, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> Bigus termitus,
> 
> Your advice is appreciated. Having the wrong people in the wrong positions is a recipe for disaster. This cost my squadron commander his command a few years ago. However, my foreman fulfilled his end of the bargain, he did every job I asked him to do, and did them well. The problem was that I couldn't find enough profitable work. I'm interested to hear from anyone else in Northern Michigan. Are we saturated with tree companies up here?



Thanks for the response....just thought it maybe a possibility.

Wait a minute...marines...squadron....which one?

My brother is an avionics sargent overseeing one of the Harrier squadrons out of Yuma.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 27, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> That's the thing about a true treeguy with woodchips in his veins, he just don't quit, not for anyone.



That's just it....it ain't all about the money.


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## TomSawyer (Jun 27, 2008)

I flew with Scarface, HMLA 367. It is a light attack squadron, Hueys and Cobras. I was a snake driver from 01 to 06. 

Semper Fi!


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 28, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> I flew with Scarface, HMLA 367. It is a light attack squadron, Hueys and Cobras. I was a snake driver from 01 to 06.
> 
> Semper Fi!



What has you on the ground doing tree work? Or is that a sore subject? Don't mean to pry, but I would think you could make a good living in the private sector as a pilot. Being a military helicopter pilot was a dream of my own once. Thought I'd always come home and fly medevac or something.

Anyway...if you love this biz at all...give it a another go...maybe even part time or something. Ever think about working with someone else more established for awhile?


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## John464 (Jun 28, 2008)

you say your problem is getting work. Work is out there as you know and its not always easy to get it. Perhaps you arent a good salesman? Hire one or take some courses on sales. Perhaps your marketing stinks? Learn to market your company better or hire a marketing expert to advertise. The question Im after is why aren't you getting work?

If you like tree work There are plenty of ways to get work, but it takes a real hustler to close a bid. From the reason they call you to what you propose/presentation.

There are reasons why companies are doing a mil a year and it all starts with sales and marketing all while keeping a quality reputation.

I agree with you that this biz is tough, but if you take some time to figure out how to rise above the cut throats, those who work on such short margins wont have the time/capital/resources to devise a master plan.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 28, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> Sunriseguy,
> 
> I got into this about 2 years ago, and we put together the equipment package over time. As far as how much money I have sunk into it, let's just say FAR more than I could ever realistically hope to get back out of it. Don't waste your tears on me though, that's business. 90 percent of small businesses fold in the first year right?
> 
> ...




It's tough to respond to you, in a situation like this, without sounding like I'm attacking you, so please, do not take this as an attack. 

You made some serious errors, as I see it: You sunk too much money into the business, in too short a time, given the fact that it was a field you were not familiar with. While under-capitalization is one of the big reasons a large percentage of businesses fail, it is not the spending for equipment and such that is contributory, but rather the failure to have a good cash supply on hand for unforeseen business events. You tapped out, as I see it, way too soon. When I asked about how much you prepared yourself, education-wise, I was not asking about studying up on business, in general, although that is a valid thing to do. Rather, I was asking how much you studied up on arboriculture. The fact that you apparently did nothing along that line is a fairly good indicator that you were setting yourself up for a fall, no pun intended. I'm sorry to say, but setting up a target net figure for any business is a basic thing to do. I assure you it is most certainly NOT "total crap" unless you are planning to fail. I have started four businesses in my life. All succeeded. I do not say this to brag, but rather to back up what I point out, above. I always studied the field I was going into, in great depth, I never overspent at the outset, thus keeping my overhead down and I always fleshed out, long before I "hung out my shingle," what I could reasonably hope to net, from the start. One business, my band, took 30% of my hearing over twenty years and so had to be left behind. Another, my tattoo shop, was left behind, after twelve good years, when the number of shops in my town soared from three to thirty, and the pie was being sliced far too thin. Another, my three rent houses that I bought in the early '80's, continue to make me a good deal of money to this day. To get to the present: My tree business is running smoothly and allowing me to live the way I want to. I buy more equipment as I get more business. There is a fine balance that must be struck, there. I am planning on some TV ads, right now, but I have to see that my bottom line will support that.

Part of being a good businessman is knowing when to fold and get into something else. You have that part down, and I salute you for it. I sincerely wish you good luck in your next endeavor, whatever it may be. Each time we fail, we learn by our mistakes, hopefully, and that makes our success shine brighter, down the road. Again, good luck, man!


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## TomSawyer (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks for the replies folks. Don't worry, I don't feel attacked. I have a pretty thick skin.

Sunrise guy, What was your predictions for gross/net income in your business plan? How did they compare to reality? How did you arrive at the projected figures?


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 28, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> Thanks for the replies folks. Don't worry, I don't feel attacked. I have a pretty thick skin.
> 
> Sunrise guy, What was your predictions for gross/net income in your business plan? How did they compare to reality? How did you arrive at the projected figures?



I researched our biz, on the income side, by reading the two mags from ISA and TCIA. There are some figures given in both magazines, more in the ISA one, including their income survey. I also got bids on tree work at my house and my three rental properties to see what the market was like. I found out the costs of equipment used and got a rough idea of repair costs by talking to dealers in town. I then figured how many people I could call on per week and what an "average gig" might gross. Knowing my very strong sales abilities, I estimated that I could get x amount of gigs per week for y amount of dollars. I came up with a gross figure of anywhere from $50-100 G's per year, and budgeted my expenses, accordingly. I increased that figure as I learned more and made more. So far, so good, knock on (healthy) wood!

I have to say, here, that I have a science background with my Biology degree. I kept up with developments in my field and with a minor in Botany, I was already up to speed, to a fair extent, with arboricultural basics. I learned much more by buying and studying a ton of books on arboriculture, specifically. I can't imagine how anyone can start a tree business without knowing a good deal about trees. Obviously that is done all of the time, sadly, but just as obviously, many people getting into our field with no prior knowledge of it crash and burn pretty quickly.


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## TimberMcPherson (Jun 28, 2008)

Im sorry that you have ended up going this way, business is tough, you put alot of yourself into it, and the returns (not just financial) may not always be there.

Alot of guys on this site have had to weather tough times, but sometimes the games against you. And you gotta do whats needed.

I see that the tree business is a kind of trap for many. We buy gear to do the jobs "easier" but have to push harder to make the money to justify the equipment. 

Gear is a step up when you need it, and a noose around your neck at other times.

I wish you the best of luck. Nice toys, I started out with a nissan pathfinder and a rented trailer. I was single and living on $120 a week. I think lack of innitial money actually helped built my business, made me careful and kept me from over reaching. But then perhaps thats wrong, but I have always wanted to be an arborist first, and a businessman second.


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## hornett224 (Jun 29, 2008)

*sorry to hear you're throwing in the towel.*

i know that area well and it has to be a tough one for this business.that area is tough for any business.

good luck in your future endeavors! and God bless you and thanks a million for your service to our country.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 29, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Im sorry that you have ended up going this way, business is tough, you put alot of yourself into it, and the returns (not just financial) may not always be there.
> 
> Alot of guys on this site have had to weather tough times, but sometimes the games against you. And you gotta do whats needed.
> 
> ...



Man, well said! I am SURE that lack of money, initially, helped you become the good businessman you now are. From looking over Tom's equipment, on his site, I found it almost impossible to believe that he was only in business two years.
Unless he came into some mighty big bucks through inheritance or an amazing amount of savings, I can estimate that he entered our profession with about a $2G, or more, monthly note around his neck. That is certainly NOT the way to get off to a good start.


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## TimberMcPherson (Jun 29, 2008)

Im a lousy businessman, I dont charge old people enough, I do freebees for people I think deserve them, I overpay my staff, I turn down dismantles and heavy prunes if I dont see good reason for them, I frequently talk my way out of alot of work by saying the trees are fine, my paperworks a mess and my invoicing can be a little random. My palm pilot is me writing on my hand, my accountant thinks I run the business just to buy more gear, I have happily spent hours on "quotes" listening to war vets talk, I dont charge enough in general, (I get 97% of my quotes doh) I do work for my whole street for wine, and I have been known to spend longer on a job because the kids there are having to much fun with my dog.


But who cares, I love what I do and enjoy it.


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## Grace Tree (Jun 29, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Im a lousy businessman, I dont charge old people enough, I do freebees for people I think deserve them, I overpay my staff, I turn down dismantles and heavy prunes if I dont see good reason for them, I frequently talk my way out of alot of work by saying the trees are fine, my paperworks a mess and my invoicing can be a little random. My palm pilot is me writing on my hand, my accountant thinks I run the business just to buy more gear, I have happily spent hours on "quotes" listening to war vets talk, I dont charge enough in general, (I get 97% of my quotes doh) I do work for my whole street for wine, and I have been known to spend longer on a job because the kids there are having to much fun with my dog.
> 
> 
> But who cares, I love what I do and enjoy it.



Good reading.
Thanks,
Phil


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## tree MDS (Jun 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> That's the thing about a true treeguy with woodchips in his veins, he just don't quit, not for anyone.



Bang, nail on the head, no pun intended.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 29, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Im a lousy businessman, I dont charge old people enough, I do freebees for people I think deserve them, I overpay my staff, I turn down dismantles and heavy prunes if I dont see good reason for them, I frequently talk my way out of alot of work by saying the trees are fine, my paperworks a mess and my invoicing can be a little random. My palm pilot is me writing on my hand, my accountant thinks I run the business just to buy more gear, I have happily spent hours on "quotes" listening to war vets talk, I dont charge enough in general, (I get 97% of my quotes doh) I do work for my whole street for wine, and I have been known to spend longer on a job because the kids there are having to much fun with my dog.
> 
> 
> But who cares, I love what I do and enjoy it.



If I ever am in your neighborhood, you've got my services, on the house (or in the tree).


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## TomSawyer (Jul 12, 2008)

Friends,


I am going to sell the equipment individually, instead of trying to sell the whole business as a package. 

Check out my homepage if you are interested, and thanks for looking.

Good luck to you all.

TomSawyer


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## treemandan (Jul 12, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Im a lousy businessman, I dont charge old people enough, I do freebees for people I think deserve them, I overpay my staff, I turn down dismantles and heavy prunes if I dont see good reason for them, I frequently talk my way out of alot of work by saying the trees are fine, my paperworks a mess and my invoicing can be a little random. My palm pilot is me writing on my hand, my accountant thinks I run the business just to buy more gear, I have happily spent hours on "quotes" listening to war vets talk, I dont charge enough in general, (I get 97% of my quotes doh) I do work for my whole street for wine, and I have been known to spend longer on a job because the kids there are having to much fun with my dog.
> 
> 
> But who cares, I love what I do and enjoy it.



Sound like me to a T


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## capetrees (Jul 13, 2008)

Me too and strangely, the business has grown as a result of the "problems" listed above. Now I have to go on a Sunday to help a neighbor take out five trees in his yard for a handshake. It all comes around eventually.


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## DDM (Jul 13, 2008)

Wow. If you were closer I'd buy the chipper and the big dump "I need the dump bed".


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 13, 2008)

TomSawyer,
did you go after large commercial accounts, residential, or both? i spent a few years doing residential and small commercial work and made the normal money. it was when i started winning the BIG commercial accounts (500 to 2,000 trees at a time) that my business took off and money was flowing. had i stuck to the smaller stuff i would have thrown in the towel long ago.

FYI: for me the difference was when i purchased a 4x4 self-propelled 60ft JLG man lift. with that one piece of equipment i could do jobs faster and more efficient than my competitors who all had forestry bucket trucks. this thing moved with a twist of the joystick and could go through mud, up and down hills, everything where a bucket truck can't.


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## tree md (Jul 13, 2008)

Man, if I could count the nights I slept out under the stars on top of my ropes because business was tight. I lived by the river, camped by the lake with nothing but my ropes, saws and dog (before he died) because I just wasn't making enough jobs. I wouldn't give it up for anything. Now I'm tied down with ads out locally and guys who count on me and can't travel like I used to. Sometimes I miss the days of living off deer meat and fish out by the lake. If things don't pick up around here soon I might not have to miss those days anymore but rest assured, I'll hang in there until better times. Tree work is about all I've done since I was 21. Can't imagine myself doing anything else.


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## treemandan (Jul 13, 2008)

capetrees said:


> Me too and strangely, the business has grown as a result of the "problems" listed above. Now I have to go on a Sunday to help a neighbor take out five trees in his yard for a handshake. It all comes around eventually.



Yes, it seems to come around and I seem to be stuck with it, Its not like I can just go get another job, I mean; would you hire me?


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## TomSawyer (Jul 13, 2008)

Tree innovator,

We went after residential work, I tried shaking hands and passing out cards at golf courses, but no luck there. I am starting to think that my main problem was my location. If I were to take my whole operation to a city like Lansing, Grand Rapids, or Detroit, I think we would do just fine. Most Northern Michigan folk have a chainsaw or 5 in their garages and know how to use them just fine, thank you very much!


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## treemandan (Jul 13, 2008)

Tom Sawyer,
How long was your run? Having any luck selling your stuff? I know you are keeping the ropes and hand tools.


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## TomSawyer (Jul 13, 2008)

Treemandan,

My foreman bought out most of my saws and ropes, and I gave him the climbing gear as a gift. After all, I did throw him out into the street, so to speak. I kept an 026 and an MS440 for myself, and some chaps and helmets. You never know, maybe a tree will fall on my house when I am in law school!

Not so much luck yet with the bigger stuff, lots of tire kickers, no check writers yet. Things are pretty slow up here in the frozen north, and if I have to hold on to the stuff until things pick up I may just have to do that.

Someone out there needs some gear though, I've got a feeling!!


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## beerman6 (Jul 14, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> I am starting to think that my main problem was my location. If I were to take my whole operation to a city like Lansing, Grand Rapids, or Detroit, I think we would do just fine.



nah,With all the laid off autoworkers,EVERBODY is a treeguy,landscaper...

and +1 on the north folk.


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## tree MDS (Jul 14, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yes, it seems to come around and I seem to be stuck with it, Its not like I can just go get another job, I mean; would you hire me?



Good question, lol.


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## HolmenTree (Jul 14, 2008)

A little heavy rain this AM ,equipment needs some mtnce but thought I'd put my 2 cents in anyway.
Some days,yeah I felt like packing 'er in too. But if you love saws, cutting wood and climbing, you just can't. Maybe I'm one of the fortunate arborists,I got woodchips in my veins at 16 yrs old when I started my career as a pro faller, sure I could have gone on to college but I kept on doing what I loved doing. If you look at my signature you can see that I'm a small operator, but you know with only one fulltime employee I'm grossing $200,000 a yr. and growing. I think what kept me going was the boost I got from my Arbormaster Training courses, here in Canada Arbormaster is now Arboriculture Canada Training &Education Ltd. Check them out at [www.ArborCanada.com ] DWayne and his instructors are GOOD. I can't wait until my next 2 courses this fall.
Yes every man has gotta know his limitations, but I sure love my business.

Willard


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## tree MDS (Jul 14, 2008)

Pretty good numbers for the investment there Holmen tree, congrats. What is your day rate ideally? (if you dont mind)


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## HolmenTree (Jul 14, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Pretty good numbers for the investment there Holmen tree, congrats. What is your day rate ideally? (if you dont mind)



My ideal day rate ...... $5,000 day, no just kidding LOL. Wouldn't we all wish!

We work 8 mths a year. Average $1,000- $1,500 day. Plus quite a few of $2,500 to $3,000 ones when we're on 4 day road trips working 15 hr. days. 

I always believed [as a one time piecework logger] to take weekends off ,spend time with the family, recharge your batteries and then give er Monday morning . When we are doing local work we work 8 hrs a day, 5 days a wk. On the road 15 hr. days [ 2 x 4 day weeks a mth] . We charge by the job and only a few times by the hr. for small commercial jobs. Almost all our business is residential. Word of mouth works, if your good and fast, people look in awe when you get the job done in record time and not a twig left on their lawns even after they pay you $300 hr. Most people don't want a crew hanging around their homes making noise for too long.

I look at my business as Piecework. Stump removal is 50% of my business[$5 per inch ground level diameter]


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## tree MDS (Jul 14, 2008)

You do a hundred grand worth of stumps?


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## HolmenTree (Jul 14, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> You do a hundred grand worth of stumps?



Thats right,almost every tom #### & harry up in my neck of the woods has a chainsaw but they are left with a stump. My little 252 is the best investment I ever did. My worker and I got it down to science now, He sets the folding plywood blind up around the stump, I grind ,put grinder back on trailer, then help him filling buckets with chips ,throw in trailer, rake up and backfill & level holes with leftover dirt. With Greenteeth, AutoSweep turned off, $300 hr easy.[ $5 inch] for multiple stumps ,[ 60" stump would take as much as 2 hrs. with the 252,so now we are down to $150 hr. , 6 -10" stumps an hr no problem] 

Got to get into the shop, back in the evening.

Willard


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## tree MDS (Jul 14, 2008)

Thats sweet man, I've been thinking about a vermeer 352 they seem like a good machine. A stumper is the only thing I dont have yet and I'm sick of paying other people/scheduling it so I can cleanup with the tractor. I wish it payed like that around here though. Good luck, MDS.


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## Texas Traveler (Jul 14, 2008)

I am going to throw this out here & see if I am wrong in doing it.
About 2 months back, A young man called me about a real nice CS346 Echo saw that I had bought new but hardly used & asked if would take a tradein on a saw I was selling on Craigs list.
I told him I would look at it.
He brought over a STIHL 032, still had old gas in it that smelled like 10 years old.
The carb was flooding bad, complete with a bad chain & bar. 
I told him him he needed to put up a little cash to make the deal fly.
Oh heck no man It should be a even trade. 
I told him you are expecting me to trade you a nice running saw for one that won't run.?
Well I have a tree job I just have to do & I don't have much money.
If you help me this time I will be back & buy that big 090 saw you have there.
Like hell you will & I let the damn kid walk off with the good saw.:censored: 
Man I kicked my rear for a damn week around here, damned ole fool feeling sorry for that idiot & letting a kid screw you like that.
Fast forward 2 months & what do I get on the phone is the same damn kid wanting to buy the 090.
Well boy how much money do you have just for #### & gigles. I have $800.00 cash, that will buy all I need said the kid.
That is when I started having hot flashies & he was still bragging when I hung up the phone.:deadhorse:


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## HolmenTree (Jul 15, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Thats sweet man, I've been thinking about a vermeer 352 they seem like a good machine. A stumper is the only thing I dont have yet and I'm sick of paying other people/scheduling it so I can cleanup with the tractor. I wish it payed like that around here though. Good luck, MDS.



I tried a demo 352 a few years back,it was only 10 h.p. more,and over a thousand pounds heavier then my 252 and about $10,000 more,for doing stumps on lawns the 252 is heavy enough or you'll be doing lawn repairs. In the near future I'm thinking about upgrading the old 252 with a 35 h.p. Kohler and some heavier business end shafts and bearings. But by then I might find something better and more modern.

The trick to getting lots of stump business is "cleanup". You leave that pretty lawn with a flat round backfilled black spot where the stump used to be and word of mouth will take care of you.


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## HolmenTree (Jul 15, 2008)

I should mention with a machine the size of the Vermeer 252 [ 25 hp, 1,000 lbs,] I found its niche was the manicured lawns and hard to access stumps.With a good cleanup man ,2 guys can make $300 hr [$5 per inch dia.] in multiple stumps [6x 10" stumps etc.] .But one 60" stump can take 2 hrs to do.Now your down to $150 hr. I almost threw in the towel a few years ago because of the big stumps, if you charge one rate you can't change more for bigger stumps for all honesty. So now I measure every stump at ground level the one widest measurement [ underground the rootball averages the widest width] and in the big stumps which always have large above ground lateral roots then I measure to the widest width roots included. Also watch for newly raised ground level around stumps, you can lose there too for sure. Now everthing averages out over the year and I'm making money, especially with fuel prices the way they are now. If they get any higher......yeah $6 per inch.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 15, 2008)

Holmen Tree,
don't take this the wrong way, but your full of it. I worked a hurricane cleanup and ran a 252 stump grinder all day long. had entire neighborhoods sold. 30-50 homes sold at a time with rediculous stump prices...up to $10 inch.
the reason i question your numbers is because half the time i was spending my time selling, my worker was grinding, and all he did was hoe a pile of mulch (no extensive cleanup) and we still only averaged $1500 day profit.

we were doing 20-30 stumps a day. unless you have a boatload of stumps in one yard, it takes a long time to take the machine from location to location. that alone will eat up half your day

and this was a hurricane cleanup where i didn't have to go running around for estimates and callbacks.


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## tree MDS (Jul 15, 2008)

Yeah and I dont see where a 352 would do any signifigant lawn dammage either, sorry I sub one all the time. And do they really weigh 1000 lbs more?? Are you certain?? Oh, its 3$ an inch around here generally I hear, we just throw out a number though generally.


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## Tazman1602 (Jul 15, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> Bigus termitus,
> 
> Your advice is appreciated. Having the wrong people in the wrong positions is a recipe for disaster. This cost my squadron commander his command a few years ago. However, my foreman fulfilled his end of the bargain, he did every job I asked him to do, and did them well. The problem was that I couldn't find enough profitable work. I'm interested to hear from anyone else in Northern Michigan. Are we saturated with tree companies up here?



Hey Tom,

I'm about 100 miles north of you up by Petoskey. The economy here has absolutely collapsed, no question about it. Jobs are GONE and gas is over $4.30/gallon.

I'm an Engineer on computer systems, spent 12 years working/designing the dang things. About two years ago my job "went away". No problem. My house on 20 acres is long paid for and my kids are grown. I've survived over the last two years by becoming a Tax Professional for H&R Block (a winter job) and fell into a Fleet Mechanic position for the summertime for a local landscaper -- the biggest in the area (my *first* degree was in Automotive Technology). It's been a great job with a great boss, really a great guy to work for and the pay ain't bad. It was enough to keep my in spending money anyway.

This summer has been a disaster. We've had a lot of rain.......the irrigation guys are mostly laid off because no one is using their irrigation systems. The ones that aren't laid off are the ones who build our custom trucks........thereby meaning I get laid off because they are in the shop now. Boss has tried to do me a favor by keeping me on part time, but that means I make less than Unemployment so that one is out.

........Meanwhile??? There's 30 Mexican nationals that work for the guy who have NOT been laid off and are still working full time while the native guys get laid off. BAD press for the guy but he brought them here from Mexico and he does have an obligation to keep them working until November. It's created some real hard feelings fom most of the native locals that work here, myself included.

I don't know what this winter will bring. I DO know that the robber-barron oil/gas companies will JACK the cost of heating to a point where people will be freezing to death in their homes.

I've got 30-40 cords of wood put up already for this winter so I ain't freezing. I had a notion that with the price of heating going up like it did last winter that I could make a killing on firewood this year.

Truth is I'll most likely end up GIVING a lot away to single moms, families in trouble, etc. 

What the heck, I won't make any money, but maybe God will forgive me for some of the chit I did as a kid.

Best of luck man!


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## capetrees (Jul 15, 2008)

I use my Dosko grinder at $2.50/inch. Man, that price has to go up!


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## HolmenTree (Jul 16, 2008)

Treeinnovator said:


> Holmen Tree,
> don't take this the wrong way, but your full of it. I worked a hurricane cleanup and ran a 252 stump grinder all day long. had entire neighborhoods sold. 30-50 homes sold at a time with rediculous stump prices...up to $10 inch.
> the reason i question your numbers is because half the time i was spending my time selling, my worker was grinding, and all he did was hoe a pile of mulch (no extensive cleanup) and we still only averaged $1500 day profit.
> 
> ...



Treeinnovator I see your problem, Do you seriousily think your worker is trying to break production records on the 252 while you are away? the only work my worker does is look after the chips and cleanup.It took me a couple of years to get real fast on the 252. I replaced the wheel drive motor with a larger sprocket and slow it down at the stump with the speed control. I always run my ginder only.I got my 252 and chipper side by side at the back of my side dump trailer ,everything is quickly accessable.I think the biggest thing that speeded up the 252 is the Greenteeth,we go through them like candy but man they throw chips. And I don't have to do much running around doing estimates, when I do my jobs its like a dominoe effect eveyones neighbor has work for us. Look at the map and see where northern Manitoba, Canada is. We are in the land of the midnite sun.At this time of year there is only about 2 hrs of darkness[ 2-3am] We put in long hrs here.


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## Viburnum (Jul 16, 2008)

Treeinnovator said:


> TomSawyer,
> did you go after large commercial accounts, residential, or both? i spent a few years doing residential and small commercial work and made the normal money. it was when i started winning the BIG commercial accounts (500 to 2,000 trees at a time) that my business took off and money was flowing. had i stuck to the smaller stuff i would have thrown in the towel long ago.



So how did you make that step to big commercial acocounts? We're trying to head in that direction but are still running around like headless chickens doing residential quotes and referrals. Were you approached or did you cold call, get a lead...?


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 16, 2008)

i bought a used JLG 60ft 4x4 manlift. already had the chipper truck, chipper, and stump grinder. that lift will enable you to do kill your competition on price and bidding. they can't touch your speed, efficiency, and ability to go where their bucket trucks can't.

in a nutshell... that lift allowed me to lower my prices to where other companies can't compete.


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## hornett224 (Jul 17, 2008)

*that is funny about the 352 tearing up lawns.*

we just bought a Rayco Super RG50 and we have had no problems tearing up lawns. not to mention i use the Mahindra 3215 with the loader to remove the grindings. them buckets get way to heavy. go back through with the backpack blower and fluff the grass blades up and your done. if that's not good enough,they can keep the stump. no one here has complained. they're just amazed how fast we're done.


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## rbtree (Jul 17, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Im a lousy businessman, I dont charge old people enough, I do freebees for people I think deserve them, I overpay my staff, I turn down dismantles and heavy prunes if I dont see good reason for them, I frequently talk my way out of alot of work by saying the trees are fine, my paperworks a mess and my invoicing can be a little random. My palm pilot is me writing on my hand, my accountant thinks I run the business just to buy more gear, I have happily spent hours on "quotes" listening to war vets talk, I dont charge enough in general, (I get 97% of my quotes doh) I do work for my whole street for wine, and I have been known to spend longer on a job because the kids there are having to much fun with my dog.
> 
> 
> But who cares, I love what I do and enjoy it.



Seconded on the good read! Thanks Timber..

I do many of the things you mentioned....

out here, though, there's a lot of competition....I'd say I get way under 50% of my cold bids....


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## clearance (Jul 17, 2008)

Treeinnovator said:


> i bought a used JLG 60ft 4x4 manlift. already had the chipper truck, chipper, and stump grinder. that lift will enable you to do kill your competition on price and bidding. they can't touch your speed, efficiency, and ability to go where their bucket trucks can't.
> 
> in a nutshell... that lift allowed me to lower my prices to where other companies can't compete.



Check out the 4x4 boom thread, fired all his climbers, etc. Treeinnovator is a troll who went by the name "Treeminator" in the past. Holmen, and others who don't know, its all true, he's a troll. Plain and simple.


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## tree MDS (Jul 17, 2008)

Treeinnovator said:


> i bought a used JLG 60ft 4x4 manlift. already had the chipper truck, chipper, and stump grinder. that lift will enable you to do kill your competition on price and bidding. they can't touch your speed, efficiency, and ability to go where their bucket trucks can't.
> 
> in a nutshell... that lift allowed me to lower my prices to where other companies can't compete.



I'll just consider you a loser based solely on that last comment- and for what its worth my all wheel drive bucket will drive right over that pencilneck lift of yours, lol. Any moron that buys big equipment to lower his rates is just that- and bad for the industy.


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