# Did some milling today with my 361 and small log mill, looking to go bigger...



## verticaltrx (Jan 10, 2010)

I've been using my MS361 and granberg small log mill for the past year or two now and I'm pretty pleased with it. But...it goes without saying that a bigger saw and mill would speed things up a bit. I milled some ~20" white pine today (making siding for a small shed), and milled about 140bd ft in two hours. 

I mill mostly white pine for my building projects, but some red oak every now and then as well. The pines are about 24" DBH max, and most of the red oaks are less than 20" DBH. 

I realize that a 660 is pretty much the standard milling saw around here, but that's more than I want to spend, and its practicality for anything other than milling would be limited. A 70-80cc saw would be much more usable for the felling and bucking I encounter in this part of the country. 

Would stepping up to a MS460 with either a 24" or 30" mill on a 25/28" bar respectively make a noticeable enough increase in speed to make it worth it? 

I've been using Stihl 3/8" low-profile chain with the factory cutter angles and have been having great luck with it (cuts fast, and I don't care about a smooth surface for what I'm doing.) From what I've heard I'm about at the limits of this chain with a 361 and 20" bar. Would a 460 with either a 25" or 28" bar be too much to run this type of chain?

Also, I'm not opposed to husky saws, so any suggestions on a 75-80cc model would also be welcome. The main reason I stick to Stihl is there are many more dealers around here. 

Thanks for any info.


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## mtngun (Jan 10, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> I've been using Stihl 3/8" low-profile chain with the factory cutter angles and have been having great luck with it (cuts fast, and I don't care about a smooth surface for what I'm doing.) From what I've heard I'm about at the limits of this chain with a 361 and 20" bar. Would a 460 with either a 25" or 28" bar be too much to run this type of chain?


I'm not sure if there is a yes/no answer on the lo-pro. The factories don't recommend using lo-pro on long bars and powerful saws, yet it is sometimes done.

I'll be doing some tests with lo-pro on a 36" bar later this year. It remains to be seen whether there will be problems with breakage or excessive stretch. Either way, I'll report the results. 

You say you are using Stihl lo-pro ? Is that the picco chain that requires a special bar and sprocket ? I'm just trying to educate myself on the bar & sprocket issues.


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## verticaltrx (Jan 10, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I'm not sure if there is a yes/no answer on the lo-pro. The factories don't recommend using lo-pro on long bars and powerful saws, yet it is sometimes done.
> 
> I'll be doing some tests with lo-pro on a 36" bar later this year. It remains to be seen whether there will be problems with breakage or excessive stretch. Either way, I'll report the results.
> 
> You say you are using Stihl lo-pro ? Is that the picco chain that requires a special bar and sprocket ? I'm just trying to educate myself on the bar & sprocket issues.



Yup, its Stihl 3/8 Picco chain running on a stock 3003 008 8921 Stihl 20" bar and stock 3/8 x 7 rim sprocket. It runs a little higher on the bar nose than the regular 3/8 chain, but fits the sprocket well and seems to run well. It stretched just a little bit after the first few cuts, but hasn't stretched any more since then. The increase in cutting speed was very noticeable.


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## huskyhank (Jan 10, 2010)

I think bigger is better so a 460 should help. For less money than a new 460, I'd look for a used 90-100cc saw. You might find a good one for $600 or so.


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## mwrunt (Jan 10, 2010)

craigslist is a great place to start looking for a new saw i found my husky 2100 on there for a 100 bucks the guy didnt know what it was it was just listed as big husqvarna saw. The guy was cleaning out his late fathers estate and had lots of great deals i left with 
1 husqvarna saw 
industrial cement mixer 25 bucks 
old metel lathe 150 bucks 
36in towbehind rototiller 75 bucks 
electric forklift 100 bucks 
and a old gibsons tractor for 200 bucks 
i search for estate sales becouse the people selling this stuff ar usually in such a hurry to get the propertys on the market they flog stuff off at a percentage of what its worth. its amazing when u tell someone they are way underpriced and they just reply i dont care i just want it gone so i can sell the house. 
Some people like this case didnt relize his father had just as much money invested in tools as his whole house was worth. the sad thing is is most of which didnt sell probably ended up in the rolloff dumpster dropped in the driveway.


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## Brmorgan (Jan 10, 2010)

Yep go used, don't spend the better part of a grand on a brand-new saw that's still a bit on the underpowered side for the extra wear & tear that milling involves. If you could find a seized-up 046 for cheap and put a new Big-Bore kit from Bailey's in it, that would make a decent rig for minimal investment, especially if you threw a dual-port muffler cover on it. If I were you though, I'd keep my eye open on the Trading Post here for a good used 394/5 or 660 - you could throw a Bailey's kit on a worn-out one of these too for about 99cc. Of course I guess I'm assuming you're comfortable doing a significant amount of maintenance and repair on your own saws - if that's not your thing then a new saw might be the way to go.

As per the chain, Oregon or Carlton low-profile should be fine, but I'm not sure about the Picco unless you also have a Picco sprocket and bar. Guys have had problems with such setups breaking chains due to the poor fit around the sprockets that you noted. The Oregon and Carlton seem to ride just fine in standard 3/8" .050 gear though. You will notice more stretching at the beginning than with standard 3/8" chain, and it's true there is a bigger theoretical risk of it breaking with the larger saws, but I haven't had any problems yet with it on my 660/25" rig, and there are a few others that run it as well. This just came up in another thread a while ago, but I can't remember who started it or what it was called.

If you are stuck on getting a new 70-80cc saw, you might want to also look into a Dolmar 7900. I've never handled or run one, but from everything I've read on here they're a bit more powerful and smoother-running to boot. You could also check out a Husky 372XPW - they're usually 75cc instead of the regular 372XP's 72cc. They're discontinued and getting fairly difficult to track down though, I hear. I'd have a hard time recommending a 576XP for milling duty since it's a strato engine and I'm not sure I trust their durability with milling duty yet. Other than that, you could consider a Husky 385XP, but honestly if you were going to go that far it would be kinda ridiculous to not just spend the extra few bucks for a 390 or 395 at that point and be done with it.


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## gr8scott72 (Jan 10, 2010)

I bought my 394XP in late 2007 for $500 in VERY good condition. I would not want to mill anything over about 24" with any less of a saw.


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## BobL (Jan 11, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> I've been using my MS361 and granberg small log mill for the past year or two now and I'm pretty pleased with it. But...it goes without saying that a bigger saw and mill would speed things up a bit. I milled some ~20" white pine today (making siding for a small shed), and milled about 140bd ft in two hours.
> 
> I mill mostly white pine for my building projects, but some red oak every now and then as well. The pines are about 24" DBH max, and most of the red oaks are less than 20" DBH.
> 
> ...



Going from a 361 to a 460 is a 25% increase in cc and 32% increase in HP but I don't think you will even get a 25% increase in overall board production in 20" softwoods. If you want to speed things up in a noticeable way you will need to at least increase saw capacity by 50 or 100%. Where you would benefit from on a 25% bigger saw is with less long term wear and tear on the engine and the ability to pull chain on a longer bar.

Just hang around here long enough and you will soon get a good dose of CAD and then you will be wondering why you posed this question in the first place.


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## Andrew96 (Jan 11, 2010)

+1 on the estate sales. Watch the papers for them (non seasonal) and get there first. I'd need a 5 page thread to discuss the things I've walked away with for pocket change. The sellers don't know what they are selling. Certainly one will have a good big used saw soon. It took me 8 months to find my 660 at a price and condition I wanted. No substitute for displacement. Well worth the wait. Use what you have while you search, do your homework so you can spot the saw you want without stickers on it. You'll need to know exactly what it looks like. If big saws are used near you by industry...pawn shops should be on your list to visit.


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## verticaltrx (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. Buying a used saw, running or not, is definitely something I will consider, I was kinda just getting a feel for how big I needed. I've seen a few 044/440/046/460 saws around here for sale, but those are about the biggest saws that people run in this part of the country. I've only seen one 660 in person and that was new at a dealer, he said it'd been on the shelf for a couple of years. 

The 046/460 with a big bore kit from baileys is an appealing option, although I wouldn't shy away from an 064/066/650/660 if I could find one cheap.

I do like the air-injection on the Huskys, and can see how that might be nice for milling. Other than a 385, 394 or 395 what should I be looking for, I'm not real familiar with the older husky saw?

What would the feasibility be of running a 460 on a 30" mill for the soft woods, then get one of granbergs double end bars and run both the 361 and 460 for hardwoods? That's about 10.4hp which seems like plenty, my only concern would be that the 361 runs at a higher rpm, not sure if that would cause trouble or not. Thoughts?


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## huskyhank (Jan 11, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> snipped......
> 
> I've only seen one 660 in person and that was new at a dealer, he said it'd been on the shelf for a couple of years.



If its still there, now is the time to make an offer.

And as for other saws, especially Huskys, I don't think they've made any bad ones in the big bore professional saw line. 2100, 2101, 298, 288, 385, 390, 394, 395 -- any of those would work well. More displacement the better.


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## chuckwood (Jan 11, 2010)

*Granberg small log mill*



verticaltrx said:


> I've been using my MS361 and granberg small log mill for the past year or two now and I'm pretty pleased with it. But...it goes without saying that a bigger saw and mill would speed things up a bit. I milled some ~20" white pine today (making siding for a small shed), and milled about 140bd ft in two hours.
> 
> Thanks for any info.



I'm a beginner chainsaw miller and currently using the small log mill with the mini-mill for edging cants. Started out with a 65cc saw and was dissappointed with the speed. So I bolted on a heavier 288xp to the small mill for an improvement. My coming upgrade is a 36" Alaskan MkIII with a Shihl 075, not quite ready to go yet. Granberg says a 20" bar is the maximum for the small log mill. However, yesterday I got impatient and used a 28" bar on the small mill with the 288 and it worked just fine on a big log. I may try the small mill with a 36" bar just to see what happens. At some point, I suppose I'll be getting wavy cuts, but it's not happened yet.


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## Gab250 (Jan 11, 2010)

What about something like a used 056?

Gab


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## Brmorgan (Jan 11, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> Thanks for the replies. Buying a used saw, running or not, is definitely something I will consider, I was kinda just getting a feel for how big I needed. I've seen a few 044/440/046/460 saws around here for sale, but those are about the biggest saws that people run in this part of the country. I've only seen one 660 in person and that was new at a dealer, he said it'd been on the shelf for a couple of years.
> 
> The 046/460 with a big bore kit from baileys is an appealing option, although I wouldn't shy away from an 064/066/650/660 if I could find one cheap.
> 
> ...



The air-injection is definitely a big plus. I clean the filter on my 395 milling saw maybe half as often as the 066; it could probably go longer but why let it? As for older Huskys in the same size range, you're pretty much stuck with a 285/298/1100/2100/2101. There are guys that use 2100s since they are great saws, but many parts are becoming very difficult to find for them so I'd hesitate to recommend them unless you have a source for parts. They are all built on pretty much the same chassis with minor differences between - notably that the 285 and I believe the 298 do not have auxiliary manual oiler plungers, and the 298 had a re-designed recoil unit that ended up being prone to failure and re-replaced by the original 2100 recoil.

You _could_ run a 460 in a 30" cut, though I'm pretty sure at the least you'd want to use skip chain. Even then I'd say you'd really want to have it muffler modded first. Coupling a 460 with a 361 on a double-ended bar is probably a bad idea. The saws must be tuned to run at the same RPM, which might be a bit of a challenge with saws that far apart in the displacement range. If they're not tuned the same you're going to wear out the clutch on the smaller saw at the very least, and could seriously damage both because it could essentially render the ignitions out-of-time in a way.



chuckwood said:


> I'm a beginner chainsaw miller and currently using the small log mill with the mini-mill for edging cants. Started out with a 65cc saw and was dissappointed with the speed. So I bolted on a heavier 288xp to the small mill for an improvement. My coming upgrade is a 36" Alaskan MkIII with a Shihl 075, not quite ready to go yet. Granberg says a 20" bar is the maximum for the small log mill. However, yesterday I got impatient and used a 28" bar on the small mill with the 288 and it worked just fine on a big log. I may try the small mill with a 36" bar just to see what happens. At some point, I suppose I'll be getting wavy cuts, but it's not happened yet.



I've used my 288 for milling a few times. To be honest I'd say it (and my ported 80cc 181SE) make pretty much the same power as my 395. They're torquey buggers, for sure. I ran a 20" .325 chain on a 9-pin rim on my 288 a couple times - it was really grabby and took some effort to control, but is by a wide margin the fastest-cutting setup I've ever tried. As per the OP and my 181SE, as I said it's 80cc and will pretty much keep up to big brother 395 (at least up to 28" Douglas Fir anyway); the caveat is that I don't often use it for milling because it is ported and revs out so high. I more often take it as my big falling/bucking saw and use it on the vertical mill jig to make squaring cuts; that way it only gets used for one or two cuts per log at most and I don't have to take the 395 off the Alaskan to drop a tree.



Gab250 said:


> What about something like a used 056?
> 
> Gab



Great saw, great on a mill (especially an 056 Mag II; those are even better than a 395/660) but I have the same concern regarding parts availability. The ignitions especially can be troublesome on them, and they aren't available new anymore. Again, if you have access to some parts, it's a great option.


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## mtngun (Jan 11, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Coupling a 460 with a 361 on a double-ended bar is probably a bad idea. The saws must be tuned to run at the same RPM


The double ended bar is not as wacky as it sounds. The two saws should find their own common rpm, as long as their normal operating speed is in the same ballpark (on the other hand, coupling a Stihl 362 with a Stihl 041 would be asking for trouble because they run at very different rpms).

But -- it would take two people to run a double ended bar, unless he hooked up remote controls for both saws.


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## verticaltrx (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm going to try to keep my search for saws limited to those produced in the last 15yrs or so. Even the parts for my 041 are getting harder to find, so I'd like to stay away from anything that old. 

What is the RPM of the 460 vs the 361? IIRC the 361 is 14,000, but I don't know what the 460 would be. 

Would it be unreasonable to expect to double my cutting speed with a 660/395 in these narrow soft woods over my current setup? I'm making about 70bd ft per hour now(1x12x8s), including bucking the logs and squaring them up into cants.


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## Brmorgan (Jan 12, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> I'm going to try to keep my search for saws limited to those produced in the last 15yrs or so. Even the parts for my 041 are getting harder to find, so I'd like to stay away from anything that old.
> 
> What is the RPM of the 460 vs the 361? IIRC the 361 is 14,000, but I don't know what the 460 would be.
> 
> Would it be unreasonable to expect to double my cutting speed with a 660/395 in these narrow soft woods over my current setup? I'm making about 70bd ft per hour now(1x12x8s), including bucking the logs and squaring them up into cants.



Heh, 041 parts are like spare change around here - the trick is finding ones that aren't worn right out or cracked/broken. Every single one I've seen has at least one broken bolt eye etc.

No idea on the specifics of the 460's RPM though. I'd be willing to bet it isn't as high as 14k in stock form. I know guys get them well over that mark with muffler/port mods though.

Depending on the chain you're using now and the setup you (hypothetically) decide to run on a 660/395, it would be entirely plausible for it to cut at least nearly twice as fast. Don't hope for doubling your production though - all that setup time etc. that you speak of is the same no matter what saw's on the mill!

If you'll permit my 2¢ here, I'd really recommend a 395 over a 660 for milling, but it's a personal choice. The air filtration is much better, as is the antivibe (in my opinion anyway), and it's also 4cc larger. The upsides of a 660 are the chain tensioner on the side in the clutch cover, and its inboard clutch. While these are definitely worthwhile advantages, and even more so when milling, if they aren't a big deal at the end of the day to you I'd recommend a 395.


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## mtngun (Jan 12, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> What is the RPM of the 460 vs the 361? IIRC the 361 is 14,000, but I don't know what the 460 would be.


13,500 is the official spec.

Most likely they would run at around 10,000 rpm in the wood (it's fun to have a CSM tach so you can monitor that).



> Would it be unreasonable to expect to double my cutting speed with a 660/395 in these narrow soft woods over my current setup? I'm making about 70bd ft per hour now(1x12x8s), including bucking the logs and squaring them up into cants.


If you are doing 70 bf/hr, that's 700 bf/day. You're the man ! ! ! 

I started out milling with an 80cc saw and got just as many boards as with my current 99cc saw. Yes, the 99cc is a wee bit faster, but the most noticeable difference is the ease of maintaining a decent cut speed without bogging, something that my altitude and compression limited 066BB still doesn't do nearly as well as I would like. 

As BobL has said many times, when things are going right, the saw should almost feed itself into the cut. With an underpowered saw, you gotta baby the feed every step of the way. It's tiring and annoying.


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## huskyhank (Jan 13, 2010)

I'll throw in here that "board feet" may not be the best measure of a CSM's performance. We'd be better off measuring "kerf feet" - how much wood is removed. A slab 10 feet long, 12" wide and 1" thick contains 10 board feet of lumber. A board 10' long, 12" wide and 3" thick contains 30 board feet. To cut either slab from a log requires the same amount of cutting work by the saw.

Given a particular chain speed at full load on the saw, more teeth engaged in cutting will result in more wood cut. So a saw with greater full load cutting capacity will cut more wood. Keeping the saw working at its full capacity will cut more wood. The only time a chain is cutting is when its in the wood. Chain does not cut wood while its running through the air.

That's my opinion.


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## verticaltrx (Jan 13, 2010)

mtngun said:


> 13,500 is the official spec.
> 
> Most likely they would run at around 10,000 rpm in the wood (it's fun to have a CSM tach so you can monitor that).
> 
> ...



Maybe I'm not doing as bad as I thought then. I didn't time the cuts, but it seemed like it took about a minute or so per cut in a 12" x 8' pine cant. That was with a fresh low-profile chain, and the cant at a fairly decent slope, I actually had to hold the saw back just a little to keep it in the sweet spot. I can see how a bigger saw might have a better torque curve making it easier to maintain a fast cut. 



huskyhank said:


> I'll throw in here that "board feet" may not be the best measure of a CSM's performance. We'd be better off measuring "kerf feet" - how much wood is removed. A slab 10 feet long, 12" wide and 1" thick contains 10 board feet of lumber. A board 10' long, 12" wide and 3" thick contains 30 board feet. To cut either slab from a log requires the same amount of cutting work by the saw.
> 
> Given a particular chain speed at full load on the saw, more teeth engaged in cutting will result in more wood cut. So a saw with greater full load cutting capacity will cut more wood. Keeping the saw working at its full capacity will cut more wood. The only time a chain is cutting is when its in the wood. Chain does not cut wood while its running through the air.
> 
> That's my opinion.



Yup, I realize a bd ft is very subjective when discussing milling, if I were cutting 12"x12" beams it would be a huge number, lol. Square feet also seems to be a good measurement of performance. 


I'm going to keep looking around craigslist, ebay, etc for a good used saw. I'm not entirely sure what I'll get yet, I think I would be happy with anything from a 75 to 90cc saw, husky or stihl . However, I know I would use a 75-80cc saw much more for general cutting than I would a larger one. 

Regardless, I'm going to upgrade my small log mill to an MKIII, I'm not overly impressed with the accuracy of the small log mill. If your not careful with it you end up with tapered boards. Having two support post would be better.


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## mtngun (Jan 13, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> t it seemed like it took about a minute or so per cut in a 12" x 8' pine cant. That was with a fresh low-profile chain.


Sounds like lo-pro is the _*stuff*_. I have not tried it yet, but might order some tonight.

I'm thankful to the forum for providing knowledge and tips like the lo-pro chain. Then again, this forum has cost me a lot of money.


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## mwrunt (Jan 13, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Sounds like lo-pro is the _*stuff*_. I have not tried it yet, but might order some tonight.
> 
> I'm thankful to the forum for providing knowledge and tips like the lo-pro chain. Then again, this forum has cost me a lot of money.



your not the only one this forum is costing money i went from one electric saw to for gas saws and i mite go pick up a used husky 394 i found for a good deal as well as a snow plow for my truck to clean up al the sawdust i have been making lol


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## gemniii (Jan 13, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> I'll throw in here that "board feet" may not be the best measure of a CSM's performance. We'd be better off measuring "kerf feet" - how much wood is removed. A slab 10 feet long, 12" wide and 1" thick contains 10 board feet of lumber. A board 10' long, 12" wide and 3" thick contains 30 board feet. To cut either slab from a log requires the same amount of cutting work by the saw.
> <snip>


I agree, if we want to compare milling speeds we need to calculate in square feet and some sense of hardness.
Some of us just saw EYP, while others like BobL apparently cut stuff slightly softer

than petrified wood.


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## BobL (Jan 13, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Sounds like lo-pro is the _*stuff*_. I have not tried it yet, but might order some tonight.



I have some small (18") logs to cut up and just ordered a 25" 050" bar and roll of lp to run lo pro on my small mill with the 441. I have run it on a 20" bar with a 50 cc homelite before and it cut surprising well.




> I'm thankful to the forum for providing knowledge and tips like the lo-pro chain. Then again, this forum has cost me a lot of money.


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## Gab250 (Jan 13, 2010)

What about an 044? or possibly an early 066?

Gab


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## verticaltrx (Jan 15, 2010)

Well, I just walked out of the dealer with a new 441. $765 with a 25" bar and two loops of 33RSC chain was just too good to pass up. Might not be as big as the saws we discussed, but for the small milling I do I think it will be fine, definitely a step up from the 361. I also know it will get a ton of use for general cutting, much more than a 660 or the like would have. 

Once I get her broken in I'll put it on my small log mill with my 20" bar and low-pro chain and give it a try. A 24" MKIII mill and a few loops of low-pro chain for the longer bar will be in my future as well.


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## mtngun (Jan 15, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> Well, I just walked out of the dealer with a new 441.


Darned nice saw.


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## Brmorgan (Jan 16, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> Well, I just walked out of the dealer with a new 441. $765 with a 25" bar and two loops of 33RSC chain was just too good to pass up. Might not be as big as the saws we discussed, but for the small milling I do I think it will be fine, definitely a step up from the 361. I also know it will get a ton of use for general cutting, much more than a 660 or the like would have.
> 
> Once I get her broken in I'll put it on my small log mill with my 20" bar and low-pro chain and give it a try. A 24" MKIII mill and a few loops of low-pro chain for the longer bar will be in my future as well.



That's not a bad deal at all; you'd be lucky to get just the saw alone new for under $1000 CDN up here under any circumstances - if I remember right, a 460 is just a shade under $1200 at my dealer. A 24" mill isn't out of the question at all for a 441; they're purportedly noticeably torquier than a 440, too. Just take your time and pay extra attention to saw/chain maintenance to keep it cutting at its best all the time and it should keep you happy. Having said that, I'll be astonished if you don't have a ~90cc milling saw within a year if you spend much time at it!


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## verticaltrx (Jan 17, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Having said that, I'll be astonished if you don't have a ~90cc milling saw within a year if you spend much time at it!



Quite possibly, I think I'm slowly coming down with CAD. 

Whats the consensus on how many tanks of fuel to run through a saw before putting it on a mill, maybe 10? I'm itching to get milling with this thing....


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## BobL (Jan 17, 2010)

verticaltrx said:


> Quite possibly, I think I'm slowly coming down with CAD.
> 
> Whats the consensus on how many tanks of fuel to run through a saw before putting it on a mill, maybe 10? I'm itching to get milling with this thing....



On my new 880, I bucked 3 tankfulls, and then milled a log, running 3/4 throttle for a ~minute, 1/2 throttle for a minute, idle for a minute and varied that up and down for the whole log. It helped having a tacho on my saw.


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