# Spur climbing with figure-8?



## DeanBrown3D (Aug 14, 2006)

Hello all, I have a question on using the figure-8 descender. I think this was mentioned on one of Ekka videos, but I wanted to confirm this. The techniques was to ascend using spurs and a lanyard, and to also take up a climbing line with a sliding bowline around the tree, and just below that was a figure-8 descender. The point being if you hit a wasps nest you can get out of there in a hurry by dropping the lanyward and absailing down. You were connected to a figure-8 as you ascended.

Is this right? Are you actually climbing up with the figure-8 attached and ready, or do you attach that once you get in place?

I assume also that you connect the figure-8 to your belt with prussik cord.

Thanks for any corrections if this is wrong!

Dean


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## fishhuntcutwood (Aug 14, 2006)

You can climb and rig however you like, but I think the consensus would be to ascend the tree, then rig your 8 and rap line. That forms your second tie-in, which we should all have as we're cutting. And I'm not sure how you'd attach the 8 with a prussik, but I'm sure it's possible. An 8 is meant to be attached with a carabiner directly to your harness, off of the center D if you have one. If you've never rigged an 8, do so before going up the tree for practice. It sounds stupid, but you can certainly rig them wrong, and 40' up is not the place to learn how to rig one.


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## woodchux (Aug 14, 2006)

I clip on the figure 8 after i'm in work position. Clips to my saddle with a biner.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 14, 2006)

Ok, that makes sense. So what happens if you run into a hornet nest when all you've got on is climbers and a lanyard?


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 14, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> Ok, that makes sense. So what happens if you run into a hornet nest when all you've got on is climbers and a lanyard?



ya get stung! :biggrinbounce2: 

seriously though the bail out line setup is easy:

when you get up to where your working, anchor off a seperate rope (static line, 11mm kernmantle type, HI-VIS color - (easier to see when in a hurry). Rig the Fig8 descender as shown in the pic here, and add a locking carabiner as shown. I normally just let the setup hang there, i dont clip in until I need to descend. Descending is easy - go to your bailout line, clip into the carabiner(attaches to your harness) , disconnect your climbing lanyard from the harness/tree, grab the tail end of the rappelling rope with your braking hand and descend. Others may do it differently, i do it this way - it works for me. 

With repeated practice (20 - 100 times repetitions) (to develop muscle memory) you can "bail out" even under the effects of stress or injury (hornet stings, trauma, etc)


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanks. I saw Ekka's video where he was climbing with two loops, one lanyard and one climbing line. I was just not sure how he had the climbing line attached to himself. He had it on a sliding bowline on the tree which he flipped up at the same time as the lanyard. Maybe he'll chime in here at some point.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 14, 2006)

I see what you are trying to say dean. Seems everyone here thinks you are already where you want to tie in. If i am going up on my spikes and lanyards and run into a hornets nest, I simply tie into the nearest crotch and burn down (suffering a few sting of course.) But with practice you can tie in in just a matter of seconds so you don't hang around too long. The technique I think you are talking about with the running bowline is used when chunking down a stem. You tie the running bowline around the stem then descend on it using a figure 8, making sure you leave a long tail when tying the bowline so you can pull it down to where you are making your next cut. This way you can be tied in twice when blocking and still have a way of getting to the ground if something happens. (At least this is how I use this technique.) Now this would probably work for going up the tree but it would be a bit of a pain getting the rope around the limbs on your way up. (Ekka can correct me if I'm wrong.)


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 14, 2006)

I guess to go over a crotch you would need to untie and tie in again with the bowline.

Ekka had a prussik cord from your center belt link to the climbing line and pushed it up so as to make the bowline tight. Looked really nice and safe.


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## TreeBarber (Aug 15, 2006)

fishhuntcutwood said:


> You can climb and rig however you like, but I think the consensus would be to ascend the tree, then rig your 8 and rap line. That forms your second tie-in, which we should all have as we're cutting. And I'm not sure how you'd attach the 8 with a prussik, but I'm sure it's possible. An 8 is meant to be attached with a carabiner directly to your harness, off of the center D if you have one. If you've never rigged an 8, do so before going up the tree for practice. It sounds stupid, but you can certainly rig them wrong, and 40' up is not the place to learn how to rig one.




Jeff, I thought you were on vacation.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 15, 2006)

someone wrote about using a prussik with the figure 8 descender..............the prussick is rigged below or above the Figure 8 descender as a SAFETY. 

There is a problem with rigging below the Figure 8 descender, and that is the prussik can get jammed into the figure 8 device............ 

the solution, one that is used by tactical rappellers and rescuers, is to use a '8 Link" (see picture)






The 8 Link allows you to extend your Figure 8 descender further away from your harness to make room for a safety Prusik Hitch below the descender. It attaches to the Figure 8 with a Girth Hitch. Multiple carabiner slots allow proper length adjustment. The bottom part of the "8 Link" attaches to your harness with a 'biner, and the prussick attaches to the harness with the same 'biner.


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## Diesel JD (Aug 15, 2006)

The more you mess in this stuff, the more you appreciate the folks that do it everyday for a living. Thanks to the guy that posted the pic of the 8 I now know how to rap out of tree. The video that DB was talking about was the "2gums" Ekka video. there he's trying to teach us how to always have two tie ins when climbing with spurs on takedowns as well as some simple rigging. I think there was some confusion among teh responders who thought Dean meant the lanyarding and backup lifeline video which was about blocking down. Having established that you don't rig your escape line until you spike in and start working, is the bowline the best way to rig your rapel line to a smooth spar or is there a better way? We'll assume that the rope is static and all my weight will be on it to rap down with no backup line.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 15, 2006)

^ i just pre rig my Bail Out static rope (i use it for more than trees), with a figure 8 knot on one end, with a autlocking steel 'biner clipped in, and the figure 8 descender prerigged for rappell with a biner on it.When I attach the rope to the limb, i simply wrap the rope around in a tensionless hitch, the clip the end biner to the mainline (see pic) . quick and bomber setup. the figure 8 descender then just hangs down, ready for clip in.

Tensionless hitch (retains 100% of rope strength)





you can use other methods of attachment, there are hundreds. This works for ME.


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## fishhuntcutwood (Aug 15, 2006)

TreeBarber said:


> Jeff, I thought you were on vacation.



TreeBarber!!!!  Welcome to AS my friend!!! I like your screen name. 

Everyone-Let me introduce you to TreeBarber, a very good friend of mine. I work with him in the CG here in P.A, and in Alaska before we were both stationed here. If it's wood working, light excavation, DRT, SRT, chain saw milling, moose hunting, diesel mechanics, or driving an overweight log truck, my friend TreeBarber is the man to talk to. He took the picture in my avatar.

TreeBarber-I may be on vacation, but I've always got trees on my mind. Took down that three way codom butternut yesterday. My dad was out there helping and he knows his way around saws and trees, but it felt like a solo job without the better half of PB&J there with me. I'm headed to TC tomorrow and Hansz wants me to clean up a couple of pines over his fiance's garage, and he's got a friend who's got 5 acres they want "thinned." We'll see what that entails...

It's been too hot the past month here. The river is up around 77 degrees, which is too hot for pike. They're all down deep and suspended. I've been fishing all week, and only have one decent fish to the boat!:bang: 

Take care amigo! Don't be a stranger.  

Jeff


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## fishhuntcutwood (Aug 15, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> someone wrote about using a prussik with the figure 8 descender..............the prussick is rigged below or above the Figure 8 descender as a SAFETY.
> 
> There is a problem with rigging below the Figure 8 descender, and that is the prussik can get jammed into the figure 8 device............
> 
> ...



I'll rig a prussik below my ATC when I'm rappelling in a rock climbing or mountaineering scenario. I like to keep my ATC in the same place as it allows me to rig above it for an ascent, so I rig a short prussik cord off of my leg strap, and it keeps it out of the way, and out of the device.

Jeff


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## fishhuntcutwood (Aug 15, 2006)

Hey TreeBarber, here's an idea for your avatar! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## TreeBarber (Aug 15, 2006)

Jeff thanks for the avatar, there’s some history behind that picture.

DeanBrown3, yes you want to always back-up any rappelling device. The prussik above the device is very common but it can be very hard to release if it has taken the load. Extending the device from the connection point and having a prussik below the devise is the way to go. I have an 18” piece of 7mm attached to the lower right side of my saddle and use a Blake’s hitch tied below the 8. When rappelling down you can let the hitch take the load and be hands free and then the hitch release very easy when you need to continues descending.


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## fishhuntcutwood (Aug 15, 2006)

TreeBarber said:


> Jeff thanks for the avatar, there’s some history behind that picture.



 

No problem. It's my pleasure for anyone that can slaughter mountain beavers like you can!


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 15, 2006)

Tree Barber,

Here's what my book says (Jepson's):






Can you show me how you have the setup with the blake's below the 8?

Thanks!

Dean


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## fishhuntcutwood (Aug 15, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> Tree Barber,
> 
> Here's what my book says (Jepson's):
> 
> ...



The prussik or Blake's hitch is at the guy's right hand instead of left hand. You attach it to your leg strap, or left D ring ring or whatever is in the area, so as to give you the proper length to not allow the prussik to get pulled into your device, and IS LOAD BEARING. It makes your rappel much smoother, easier and quicker. In your left hand (or in my case right hand as that's how I rap.) it's a one-hand operation instead of two. And as I mentioned earlier, I place my prussik below the device, as it clears up space on the rope above the device and allows me to more easily switch over to ascension should I need to. Rigging like that also allows me to switch from ascension to rapping. It just works better for me having the hitch below the device.

Jeff


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## TreeBarber (Aug 15, 2006)

I will try to get you a picture of my setup. I am at work (on duty) so it will be tomorrow evening.

Pat


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## woodchux (Aug 15, 2006)

Does a blakes hitch work on doubled rope?


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## Ekka (Aug 16, 2006)

Sorry for the late reply, I missed this thread somehow.

G'day Treebarber, any mates of Jeff must be cool.

When I spur up the trunk of a tree or palm I tie a running bowline on my lifeline and leave it a little slack. I flip this up along with the flip line. If you gaff out or something it'll grab and hold you.

If you get to a branch etc, just untie the running bowline, chuck it over the branch, and retie it *to your centre D's for the flip line drop and change over.*

Once that limb has been passed and if the next one is ages away I retie to a choked bowline and start flipping the two together again.

If I'm blocking down the trunk I'll cinch off my prussik real tight up against this set up.

Now, if you are going to have a figure 8 in the system you need to back it up with a prussik of some types.

I hope this helps.

Oh, I have gaffed out of a few palms and got a gut graze and the set up held.


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## arboralliance (Aug 16, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Does a blakes hitch work on doubled rope?



Yes it does though in theory you should be running six turns and in under two on doubled rope when usinfg a blakes hitch...

Personally I would always backup above my descent device as there is far too much room for error and running down on top of the friction hitch if it is below the descent/mechanical device even if the device is above you a way and the hitch attachment is close and away from the descent device...

Just my 5c...


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 16, 2006)

Cheers all!

Ekka - how are you choking the bowline? Some special knot? It looked really good on your video. I assume you are running a different cord to the bowline rope, tying on with a blake's hitch?

Jeff - thanks for the description. I think a picture would be good though


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 16, 2006)

All friction hitches will work on doubled, Dd, ropes. There are innumerable variables because of rope composition and gear configurations. As usual, try out everything...Low and Slow.

using a double wrap on the figure eight isn't a bad idea. When descent knots are tested the figure eight generally develops the lowest friction. Why not get a biner with a large, HMS top like the Gecko from ISC and use a Munter Hitch? More friction and less gear.

Arbos muscle memory isn't developed along the lines of grab to stop. We work in a let go/lock off scenario. I prefer to see arbos use a setup that mimics this. A Gri Gri or Cinch works really well and can be prerigged on the access line.


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