# Dang it all, Aluminum Will Burn...



## Wood Doctor (Dec 17, 2010)

... and disappear completely if your wood fire is hot enough. I was wrong two years ago when I said Aluminum's melting point is too high for wood to burn. My error.

An aluminum can will disappear completely at the base of a wood fire in the hot coals. Just takes a little while and Poof! it's gone. Fun to watch.

But remember, they keep telling us that wood doesn't burn very hot. Heheheheheh.


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## John R (Dec 17, 2010)

Wood fires burn damn hot!
We used to melt beer bottles in the campfire while out camping, of course that was back when we didn't have a deposit on them.


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## gink595 (Dec 17, 2010)

I think melting point of alum. is 1200*.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 17, 2010)

gink595 said:


> I think melting point of alum. is 1200*.



Close enough. Aluminum melts at 1220 F. Wood fires will melt several other metals as well. Surprisingly, wood flames ignite at only about 460 F. But, I've been told that the center of the fire can easily reach 1700 F under the right conditions.

The natural gas blue flame burner tip is about 2500 F, so when it comes to heat, wood fires ain't that shabby, are they?


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## gink595 (Dec 17, 2010)

Wood Doctor said:


> Close enough. Aluminum melts at 1220 F.



Well to be spot on it is 1220.666 F


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## DSS (Dec 17, 2010)

gink595 said:


> I think melting point of alum. is 1200*.





Wood Doctor said:


> Close enough. Aluminum melts at 1220 F. Wood fires will melt several other metals as well. Surprisingly, wood flames ignite at only about 460 F. But, I've been told that the center of the fire can easily reach 1700 F under the right conditions.
> 
> The natural gas blue flame burner tip is about 2500 F, so when it comes to heat, wood fires ain't that shabby, are they?





gink595 said:


> Well to be spot on it is 1220.666 F



Try and get along you two.


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## mga (Dec 17, 2010)

i'm waiting for some one to throw magnesium in their fire next.

report back and let us know how fast the house burnt down.

but, i've done the aluminum thing...they do end up being little grey ashes.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 17, 2010)

A repeating decimal for a melting point? How on earth did we ever get to the moon back in 1969?

Heheheheheheh.

Say, if it melts but does not vaporize, does it really burn? Methinks the ash swallows it up. Regardless, it's fun to watch the Al cans disappear like magic.


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## mga (Dec 17, 2010)

gink595 said:


> Well to be spot on it is 1220.666 F



wouldn't a thinner piece, such as a can, have a lower melting point?


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 17, 2010)

mga said:


> wouldn't a thinner piece, such as a can, have a lower melting point?



I believe the answer is No. It just gets there faster--kind of like a large pot of soup takes longer to boil than a small pot.


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## mga (Dec 17, 2010)

Wood Doctor said:


> I believe the answer is No. It just gets there faster--kind of like a large pot of soup takes longer to boil than a small pot.



ok...that makes sense.


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## o8f150 (Dec 17, 2010)

gink595 said:


> Well to be spot on it is 1220.666 F



lets just get technical


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## Metals406 (Dec 17, 2010)

I got my fire so hot one year (with Black Cottonwood no less), that it melted/sagged the thick cast grate. I should take pictures of it and post it up, it blew me away when I saw it.

That meant the fire seat had to be close to 2,000° F. Granted, at the time, it was well below zero outside, and I had that baby cranked up!


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## wdchuck (Dec 17, 2010)

Beer bottles on the end of a metal rod can become interesting sculptures in the fireplace. They can disappear in the right wood/air combinations.


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## mga (Dec 17, 2010)

would a melted aluminum can still be worth .05?


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## coog (Dec 17, 2010)

I was told by a fireman that throwing a can in the fire weekly would solve creosote build up problems. I don't have that problem, so I can't comment.


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## CTYank (Dec 18, 2010)

Lots of iron ore has been smelted with charcoal as reducing agent.

For a known fact in Salisbury and Roxbury CT, and reportedly on a large scale in Sweden. Surgical tools, ball-bearings, etc.

So, stuff like Al is trivial.


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## dingeryote (Dec 18, 2010)

LOL!!!

I remember that thread. I tossed a can or two in the fire just to make sure myself, then got nervous thinking maybe it melted and went between the firebricks, and possibly messed things up getting to the fan hatch.

Nope. Gone. Just like with the firepit.

Glad ya went and tried it for yourself, so you know we ain't crazy, or pulling your leg....well...this time.:hmm3grin2orange:

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## sloth9669 (Dec 18, 2010)

mga said:


> would a melted aluminum can still be worth .05?



Nope average can 30-35 cans per pound. 1 pound spot price is $1.05 vs 1.50ish for returns


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## Junkrunner (Dec 18, 2010)

coog said:


> I was told by a fireman that throwing a can in the fire weekly would solve creosote build up problems. I don't have that problem, so I can't comment.


I've bin doin the empty can or two for along time. It does seem to help. 

I've checked my clean-out, then added the cans to a HOT fire. Checked the clean-out a day later and usually find some creosote that has flaked -off.


I make aluminium casting from aluminium that i melt down in an old cast dutch oven, put in my stove. Woods plenty hot enough. In the summer I do it outside. 

Aluminium cans don't make good casting, do to the poorer quility of the aluminium. I use old aluminium cast lawn mower engines or automotive waterpumps, or the like.


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## olyman (Dec 18, 2010)

Junkrunner said:


> I've bin doin the empty can or two for along time. It does seem to help.
> 
> I've checked my clean-out, then added the cans to a HOT fire. Checked the clean-out a day later and usually find some creosote that has flaked -off.
> 
> ...


possible--but i find that hard to believe----al cans a drawn aluminum--and if the alum aint good quality--well--------


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## Junkrunner (Dec 18, 2010)

olyman said:


> possible--but i find that hard to believe----al cans a drawn aluminum--and if the alum aint good quality--well--------



I've tried cans and they don't work. Recycled too many times, maybe? Speekin from experience.........


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 18, 2010)

wdchuck said:


> Beer bottles on the end of a metal rod can become interesting sculptures in the fireplace. They can disappear in the right wood/air combinations.


Good grief! Glass melts down in a hot wood fire? I wonder how many know this?

Never tried that. I assure you that I will. :yourock:


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## Highbeam (Dec 27, 2010)

Bunch of city boys? How could you not know that pop/beer cans melt in the fire? 

Glass bottles will melt and you can shape them with a stick. The trick is cooling them without cracking. If you take them right out they will crack as they cool but if you leave them in the fire until morning you can fish them out usually uncracked. Made plenty of ash trays as kids this way. 

Here's your next fun trick. Nice fire burned down to a pile of red coals. Flatten out a spot in the coals or even a nice flat spot in a raging fire. Paper cup, filled halfway with water. The paper will not burn past the water line until the water boils out.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 27, 2010)

coog said:


> I was told by a fireman that throwing a can in the fire weekly would solve creosote build up problems. I don't have that problem, so I can't comment.


Never heard of that, Coog, but I suppose it's possible. I'll pass that on to a bar owner who burns 15 cords of wood a year in two hot stoves and has no idea what to do with 300 aluminum cans a week. He hates creosote.


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## anymanusa (Dec 27, 2010)

who doesn't know al cans melt in a fire?

So if I have blue flames on my oak in the fire pit, does that mean the temperature it way up there with natural gas on a gas stove?


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## logbutcher (Dec 28, 2010)

anymanusa said:


> who doesn't know al cans melt in a fire?
> 
> So if I have blue flames on my oak in the fire pit, does that mean the temperature it way up there with natural gas on a gas stove?



Yes....you win nothing.

FYI and for you PNW and Alaskan hippie rejects: our marine aluminum Snorkel stove in the hot tub has a thick red warning line marking the top plate of the stove. The warning is to keep the water level above this line or the stove WILL melt at WOT. The stove loads from the top, heats a 700 gallon tub in about 3 hours al dente.

LOvely experience to sit @ 5 F on a clear winter night ( like now ) with your drinkeepoo on the so convenient shelf star gazing and soaking at say 110 F. Did I say it can be romantic if you're not alone ? 

This talk of aluminum meltdowns just reminded me.................................


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## leadarrows (Dec 28, 2010)

You guys ever boil water in a fire in a paper cup? 

You can do it. The cup wont burn until the water boils down. As the water boils down the top of the cup burns down right behind it. 

Copper wire in a fire makes the best color show.


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## woodcutter69 (Dec 28, 2010)

i have watched aluminim cans melt before but how come aluminum foil will not melt. ive tried several times and there is still a glob of foil laying on top of the red hot coals.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 28, 2010)

woodcutter69 said:


> i have watched aluminim cans melt before but how come aluminum foil will not melt. ive tried several times and there is still a glob of foil laying on top of the red hot coals.


To check your theory, stuff an empty aluminum can with some foil. Then when the can melts, see if the foil goes down with it.


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## Taxmantoo (Dec 28, 2010)

mga said:


> i'm waiting for some one to throw magnesium in their fire next.



I've heard of it done with a magnesium mower deck and a campfire. 
Took a couple of hours to achieve ignition temp, then it got very impressive. People all over the park knew something was going on when it flared. Didn't do the fire pit much good either.


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## Taxmantoo (Dec 28, 2010)

Wood Doctor said:


> Never heard of that, Coog, but I suppose it's possible. I'll pass that on to a bar owner who burns 15 cords of wood a year in two hot stoves and has no idea what to do with 300 aluminum cans a week. He hates creosote.



In Illinois I used to see reverse vending machines in grocery store parking lots for aluminum cans. They don't have those in Nebraska?

He could crush them and haul them off to the scrapyard every time he gets up around 100lb.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 28, 2010)

Yep, he does do that on occasion. The problem is that the bar is located about 40 miles from the recycling centers. So, he has to gather a whole truckload to make it worth his while. I've built three can crushers for him, and some of these recycling center vending machines won't accept crushed cans. The centers operated by humans usually do.

I once delivered a whole truckload of cans for him to the centers. At $0.35/lb, we collected $140.


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## Smokinjo (Dec 28, 2010)

There is a true benefit to burning an aluminum can in a insert with glass doors. If you burn a can in the insert a couple times a week, it will keep the glass doors fairly clean versus having to clean them constantly to be able to see the fire. This does work as I have done it for a while. Cleaning the glass can be a real PIA without the cans. I burn good seasoned oak as well.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 28, 2010)

*Cleans Glass Stove Doors?*



Smokinjo said:


> There is a true benefit to burning an aluminum can in a insert with glass doors. If you burn a can in the insert a couple times a week, it will keep the glass doors fairly clean versus having to clean them constantly to be able to see the fire. This does work as I have done it for a while. Cleaning the glass can be a real PIA without the cans. I burn good seasoned oak as well.


Now that's worth a try. If it works, I'll report back. Cleaning the glass doors every two days is a PITA.


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## mga (Dec 28, 2010)

taxmantoo said:


> I've heard of it done with a magnesium mower deck and a campfire.
> Took a couple of hours to achieve ignition temp, then it got very impressive. People all over the park knew something was going on when it flared. Didn't do the fire pit much good either.



damn...that must have been one bright fire!


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 28, 2010)

taxmantoo said:


> I've heard of it done with a magnesium mower deck and a campfire.
> Took a couple of hours to achieve ignition temp, then it got very impressive. People all over the park knew something was going on when it flared. Didn't do the fire pit much good either.


Yep. Take a look at this:
"Magnesium is located among the alkaline earth metals on the periodic table. This element belongs to the group 2 and period 3 of the periodic table and has the atomic number 12. The average atomic mass of the element magnesium is 24.305. *Its boiling point is 1090 degrees Celsius or 1994 degrees Fahrenheit.* The metal also displays a very good conductivity of heat and electricity. It must be noted that Magnesium is a very reactive metal and does not exist in a free state in nature. It reacts with a slow pace with cold water and at a very rapid pace with hot water. The oxidation process of magnesium is very rapid and if kept in open, a layer of oxidized magnesium is formed on the surface of the metal. Magnesium also burns very rapidly, when it is at room temperature. This burning process is very furious as it produces a blinding white light."

That means a wood fire will set it off. I suspect nothing is much brighter--maybe an oxyacetylene torch.


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## chowdozer (Dec 28, 2010)

Wood Doctor said:


> Now that's worth a try. If it works, I'll report back. Cleaning the glass doors every two days is a PITA.



Wipe the glass down with soap the put the glass in. The soap will cut down on the buildup and make removing the creosote easier. I always kept 2 sets of glass. One set in the stove, one set in a stainless pan with oven cleaner in it.


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## logbutcher (Dec 28, 2010)

Why "clean" the clear ceramic ? You want to look at a fire or do you want heat ? 
Like Charlie the Tuna: " You want tuna that tastes good, or tuna with good taste ? ":hmm3grin2orange:
Forget it. Don't bother. Get warm. IT'll get clean with a good hot fire.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 29, 2010)

*Tried ChowDozer's Idea Today...*



chowdozer said:


> Wipe the glass down with soap the put the glass in. The soap will cut down on the buildup and make removing the creosote easier. I always kept 2 sets of glass. One set in the stove, one set in a stainless pan with oven cleaner in it.


... or something like it. I think it's going to work. Here's what I did. Wet two paper towels slightly and add a squeeze or two of ordinary liquid hand soap. Cleaned the glass and left a little soap scum on (not much, just a little). Doors were clean and fire looked great.

I'll see if it works again tomorrow. Burning up a couple of aluminum cans I have never tried, but that's next on the list. My stove (Federal Airtight 288) will have no trouble knocking those cans dead.


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## mga (Dec 29, 2010)

i looked up more info on aluminum cans.

some say they only work with metal chimney liners and not clay tiles. something about the chemical reaction between the two metals makes creosote flake off the metal pipes, but, if you have an elbow, you have to clean the flakes out.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 29, 2010)

*Thanks MGA*



mga said:


> i looked up more info on aluminum cans.
> 
> some say they only work with metal chimney liners and not clay tiles. something about the chemical reaction between the two metals makes creosote flake off the metal pipes, but, if you have an elbow, you have to clean the flakes out.


Well, that's good to know. I'm totally clay tile from the stove to the top of the chimney.

I've got a good friend running straight up stove pipe from both stoves. He may want to give it a try, considering he generates 100 empty aluminum cans a day at his bar and restaurant.


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## paccity (Dec 29, 2010)

mga said:


> i'm waiting for some one to throw magnesium in their fire next.
> 
> report back and let us know how fast the house burnt down.
> 
> but, i've done the aluminum thing...they do end up being little grey ashes.


 
we used to burn old broke vw crank cases, made of mag, throw one on the ground throw a bunch of wood over it light with torch, and wala, instant bohn fire. great for getting those party fires going. but try not to breath the smoke i think its bad for you.


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## corrupt (Dec 29, 2010)

I think maybe its not the ali can cleaning your chimney or glass its just the fact that you have the heat right up trying to burn the can that does it, and we all know that a quick hot fire cleans pipes and glass anyway.


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## TMFARM 2009 (Dec 29, 2010)

coog said:


> I was told by a fireman that throwing a can in the fire weekly would solve creosote build up problems. I don't have that problem, so I can't comment.


 I SAY USE THE OVEN CLEANER CAN.. :hmm3grin2orange:..I DONT HAVE THIS ISSUE I USE A LITTLE GASOLINE...LOL :hmm3grin2orange: I HAVE SEEN AN OLD MAN ONCE USE CHUNKS OF TIRES TO GET HIS CHIMNEY CLEANED OUT. HE WAS USING A POTBELLY STOVE WITH FLU PIPES AND I WILL SAY I THOUGH IT WAS DONE FOR. BUT IT CLEANED IT OUT... WHAT TEMP DOES CREOSOTE BURN TO? AND WHAT TEMP DOES YOUR CHIMNEY LINER FAIL?


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 30, 2010)

TMFARM 2009 said:


> I SAY USE THE OVEN CLEANER CAN.. :hmm3grin2orange:..I DONT HAVE THIS ISSUE I USE A LITTLE GASOLINE...LOL :hmm3grin2orange: I HAVE SEEN AN OLD MAN ONCE USE CHUNKS OF TIRES TO GET HIS CHIMNEY CLEANED OUT. HE WAS USING A POTBELLY STOVE WITH FLU PIPES AND I WILL SAY I THOUGH IT WAS DONE FOR. BUT IT CLEANED IT OUT... WHAT TEMP DOES CREOSOTE BURN TO? AND WHAT TEMP DOES YOUR CHIMNEY LINER FAIL?


I've heard that chimney fires can easily reach 2100 F. They burn hotter with better draft conditions, just like the stove. That's hot enough to turn steel cherry red. The heat can get so intense that wood studs in walls a foot away from clay tile can easily char. The roar can be deafening. Flames can shoot out the top of the stack four to six feet.

Yep, it burns out the creosote and it can also burn up the whole house.


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