# Logsplitter Problem



## firewoodpanaca (Dec 4, 2012)

I have two logsplitters on which the two engines are interchangeable. I had the seals replaced on the cylinder and when I got the splitter back the engine was very hard to start. So I swapped the engines on the splitters and the engine off of the one which had the cylinder redone I put on the old splitter. That engine then started very easily and the one which I took off the old splitter and put on the rebuilt cylinder became very hard starting. What the heck is up. What could have been done in rebuilding the cylinder which makes any engine which you put on it hard starting????? This makes no sense to me. Thanks in advance for the help.


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## Pelorus (Dec 4, 2012)

Engine should be starting easily with the hydraulic system in "neutral", ie. the pump pushing fluid through the open center control valve back to the reservoir. Sounds like you've got a major resistance to flow there somehow. Any chance a plastic cap could have been acccidently left on one of the cylinder hydraulic fittings?


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## Saw Rat (Dec 6, 2012)

*load on pump*

Something is causing an additional load on your engine while starting. 1 Check that all valves are in neutral. 2 return of hydraulic oil to tank probabally has a filter, is filter clogged? A bucket underneath while filter is off while cranking would tell you if the engine crank speed changes. hope it helps. Pull cord or electric start?


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## firewoodpanaca (Dec 8, 2012)

Saw Rat said:


> Something is causing an additional load on your engine while starting. 1 Check that all valves are in neutral. 2 return of hydraulic oil to tank probabally has a filter, is filter clogged? A bucket underneath while filter is off while cranking would tell you if the engine crank speed changes. hope it helps. Pull cord or electric start?



It's a pull start and I just had the cylinder seals replaced and the cylinder honned. Could it be because of a break in period for the "new" cylinder? I replaced the filter when the seals were being replaced???Thanks and all your imput is appreciated


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## Saw Rat (Dec 8, 2012)

firewoodpanaca said:


> It's a pull start and I just had the cylinder seals replaced and the cylinder honned. Could it be because of a break in period for the "new" cylinder? I replaced the filter when the seals were being replaced???Thanks and all your imput is appreciated



Lets take out some variables, the hydro pump should be just a couple of bolts to remove, not disconnecting hydraulics just back pump away to disengage and start engine. It sounds like a lot of extra work, but assuming an engine starts easy could waste time. If engine starts easy with pump off then the trouble is the load that is created by the pump. I would think that a jammed or stiff cylinder would only give trouble when hydraulic fluid is sent that way, otherwise with valves in neutral oil should flow from tank; to pump; to valve; to filter, to tank. Spin pump by hand when disconnected from engine to feel for damage or roughness inside. Did the cylinder cause particles of metal to enter main oil lines? Particles of metal can damage a pump quickly. Was tank filled with hydraulic fluid prior to start attempts? Low or no fluid can damage a pump quickly and make it difficult to turn. Proper oil? Thick oil can be difficult to crank through as well. Disconnecting pump and starting engine would be the most helpful thing steering the diagnostic process. Let me know, I used to do this stuff all the time at heavy equipment shops,
Saw Rat


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## firewoodpanaca (Jan 17, 2013)

The pump is connected directly to the engine and the pump can be turned by hand with no resistance when the engine is removed and the engine starts with no problem when not connected to the hydraulics. It is very confusing.


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 17, 2013)

Could be that the pump is binding when mounted to the engine. Compare the force required to pull the starter rope with the pump off and then mounted. If it is much harder mounted, then try to loosen the mounting bolts a couple of turns and pull on the rope. Could be missing a spacer or washers are in wrong place. The coupling must not push against the pump shaft, so as to press the shaft towards the pump case.
Rick


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## Pelorus (Jan 17, 2013)

I still think you have somehow gotten something inside the hydraulic system that ain't supposed to be there.
Have you tried starting the engine while the lines are disconnected from the pump?


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 19, 2013)

I wouldn't try running the pump without the suction line connected to the pump and a good supply of hydraulic fluid. A pump can trash itself in seconds if ran dry. I know what the last post was trying to check, and you can do that by routing the pressure line from the pump straight back to the FILL hole on the hydraulic tank. 
Rick


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## Pelorus (Jan 19, 2013)

Good point Rick, re. running pump dry. Would be interested to hear how the engine reacts to starting with the pump output bypassing the control valve & cyl.


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## firewoodpanaca (Feb 3, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I still think you have somehow gotten something inside the hydraulic system that ain't supposed to be there.
> Have you tried starting the engine while the lines are disconnected from the pump?



OK guys I found out something from the people who replaced the seals in the cylinder. Not only did they replace the seals but they also shortened the srtoke on the cylinder by putting a round shaped piece of aluminum in the sylinder so as to not allow the cylinder to go all of the way when making the forward splitting stroke. They also honed the cylinder. They said that the cylinder had been welded before for leaks, which it had been, and that they had to block the forward motion of the cylinder shaft by 2 inches. I don't quite understand but for sure the splitter splits very well if you can get it srarted. We have been able to start it on occasions and as I said it works well, which eliminates the pump being done in. This has to have some thing to do with that round piece of aluminum that they put in the cylinder???? What do you guys think????


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## Pelorus (Feb 6, 2013)

Open centre hydraulic control valve should be bypassing the hydraulic cylinder in neutral, so I don't think an internal stroke limiter would cause engine starting grief.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 7, 2013)

I still want to know what happens if you disconnect the pressure line from the valve and put it in the fill port on the reservoir. That would relieve all back pressure on the pump. If it starts easy the problem is in the valve or cylinder. If it is still hard to start, the problem is in the pump, or the coupling.
Rick


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## firewoodpanaca (Feb 8, 2013)

VA-Sawyer said:


> I still want to know what happens if you disconnect the pressure line from the valve and put it in the fill port on the reservoir. That would relieve all back pressure on the pump. If it starts easy the problem is in the valve or cylinder. If it is still hard to start, the problem is in the pump, or the coupling.
> Rick



I will go to the mans home who "fixed" the leak in the cylinder and then the problem in starting began and get him to do exactly what you are saying should be done. I don't know if I have made this clear.....The engine is extremely hard starting when everything is hooked up as it is now, but with patience it will start. Sometimes we have used starting fluid and other times just pulled and pulled and primed and primed until it starts. Once it starts it runs great and it splits fine. How can something be wrong with the pump if it will still split once we get it started??? And once you get it started and it warms up, if you shut it down, it will usually restart with 1-3 pulls. It does not seem to matter how cold it is outside. It's just a bear to start initially, and of course if its separated from the splitter it starts immediately. In other words, once it's running the restart is easy. I just can't seem to get what is happening straight in my mind. I will get the guy who has the splitter and try exactly what you suggested and let you know what happens. Thanks again for your help.


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## Pelorus (Feb 8, 2013)

Might wanna also take your extra engine along when you visit the fellow. 
The slight load caused by the pump when starting (even though it is only producing flow, not pressure) might be a bit much for a sick engine. Have you checked the engine compression, carb adjusted properly, etc?


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## firewoodpanaca (Feb 9, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Might wanna also take your extra engine along when you visit the fellow.
> The slight load caused by the pump when starting (even though it is only producing flow, not pressure) might be a bit much for a sick engine. Have you checked the engine compression, carb adjusted properly, etc?



I can take the engine which is on the splitter which has the problem and put it on the other splitter and it starts with 1 to 2 pulls and splits wood all day long. As a matter of fact either splitter with either engine will split wood all day long but the one splitter just won't start very easily no matter which engine is on it. But once it is started it will split without a problem for the rest of the day. This entire thing is really got me confused and I am out some money for replacing the seals and having a splitter which is more than a bear to start. Thanks for your imput......Dennis


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## Grouchy old man (Feb 9, 2013)

Ok. I've read this whole story and you only say that the engine is "hard to start". We all have taken that to mean that the rope is hard to pull. But I don't think that's what's happening at all.



> The engine is extremely hard starting when everything is hooked up as it is now, but with patience it will start. Sometimes we have used starting fluid and other times just pulled and pulled and primed and primed until it starts.



So what is it? Is the rope hard to pull or does the engine turn over but just doesn't start?


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## wva9 (Feb 9, 2013)

sounds like the valve is not open to the tank so make sure handle is in the center before starting. valve could be bypassing to the ram and putting a load on the pump then after you get it started and run it the oil is warm or valve has bin moved a little. 

That my 2 cent might only be worth the salt along the road


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## firewoodpanaca (Feb 11, 2013)

Grouchy old man said:


> Ok. I've read this whole story and you only say that the engine is "hard to start". We all have taken that to mean that the rope is hard to pull. But I don't think that's what's happening at all.
> 
> 
> 
> So what is it? Is the rope hard to pull or does the engine turn over but just doesn't start?



The rope is hard to pull, almost as if the detent valve is not in neutral. It kicks back as if it has been flooded at times but eventually it will start (up to 20 minutes of pulling on the rope) I have duplicated the situation by leaving the valve on my other splitter in the locked in return position, then it too acts like the splitter which had the seals replaced and the cylinder honned.. of course, as soon as as i put the valve in the neutral position on the splitter that is workin properly it starts with one pull of the rope. The mind bogeling thing is the fact that once you get the hard pulling and hard starting splitter running it splits perfectly for the remainder of the day. I started cutting wood in 1968 and except for a few years here and there I have been running splitters and saws and selling firewood. Although I don't write good about what I do, I dam well can cut, split and sell wood and make a living at it. I am by no means a newcomer, so I'm sorry if I did not express my thoughts on this problem properly but thanks for your patience with me.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 11, 2013)

If the rope is hard to pull, even when pulling slowly, I would still say there is a *bind in the coupling*.
Keep running it like that, and it may trash out the pump and the engine due to excessive thrust loads.

Rick


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## Pelorus (Feb 11, 2013)

Have you tried running a lighter weight hydraulic fluid like 32 or 46? What fluid are you using?
Is the engine coupled directly to the pump with a bolt-on mounting bracket / love joy coupling?


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## firewoodpanaca (Feb 12, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Have you tried running a lighter weight hydraulic fluid like 32 or 46? What fluid are you using?
> Is the engine coupled directly to the pump with a bolt-on mounting bracket / love joy coupling?



I am using 32 fluid and the love joy coupling is new. Here's where I have a problem.....How can the pump be bad and once we get it started it splits like it did when the splitter was new. I can't get that in my thick and old head. I just can't see replacing the pump if it's working. Thanks for all of your input guys......Dennis


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## Pelorus (Feb 12, 2013)

Well Dennis, you got me beat, but I hope you do get it figured out and post what you come up with. If it is a two stage pump, and it is messed up so that it is running high pressure / low flow on engine start up, then maybe that is a remote possibility. Extremely remote. I suppose if you could T in a pressure gauge on the pump side of the control valve, you could rule that in or out.


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## djones (Feb 12, 2013)

I would pull the pressure line off the control valve, insert into the reservoir tank or a 5 gal. bucket and try starting the motor. If it starts easy then you have a problem after the pump, if it starts hard then you have a problem at the pump. If the problem is after the pump then reconnect the line and disconnect a line from your cylinder to see if you have pressure there when you start up. There should be NO pressure at the cylinder with the valve in neutral. You may have to do this twice with pressure and return line to be sure. If you have pressure at the cylinder with the valve in neutral then you may have a seal gone in the control valve allowing bypass pressue to build up. Most likely it will be in the return position that you have a problem according to your description of the problem.


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## triptester (Feb 12, 2013)

It sounds like the control valve is not centering properly in neutral .The valve spool should move 1/4"-5/16" from center to full extend or center to full retract. You could remove the return side fitting to see if the spool is centered in neutral. The only other thing I can think of is some sort of blockage in the filter or filter housing. The bypass in the filter housing opens at 15 psi. If there is blockage you would be fighting 15# of back pressure when trying to start.


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## firewoodpanaca (Feb 19, 2013)

I went over to the guy who replaced the seals and honed the cylinder and he told me he had it figured out. He took a slap on magnetic heater and put it on the tank the night before I went over and when I got there in the morning it had warmed up outside to 20 degrees and he pulled the rope twice and it fired up. For some reason he feels that we (or he) got the wrong hydraulic fluid in the tank....too thick and that has been the problem all along. It really did not make me happy but after thinking about it if it works.....Well what the hell, I got my splitter back and now have two splitters again. I am going to try it that way. Thanks for everyones imput....Dennis


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