# Looking at ways to dry firewood faster and cheaper



## jason6586 (Jul 31, 2014)

Hello,

I have a small scale firewood business going now and I have orders for about 70 cords this year so far. I know that it will be more next year because of a few different things that I do for my customers that the other guys don't and I have had my phone ringing already for next winter with new customers. I started doing bundles this spring and have sold about 300 bundles this summer already. My problem is I can only sell my wood within a 50 mile radius without USDA-DNR certification and a kiln to kill the bugs. I have a cement block building that is 12'x20' that i really don't use other than for storage of mainly junk so I am looking at converting into a kiln if i decide to go that route. Right now I season my wood outside under a lean to roof next to my shed, the lean to is 20'x120' with a concrete floor so i can store a good amount of 16" chunks in there and for now its working well but i'm seasoning my wood about 1 1/2 to 2 years to get it to 15-20%. I was doing some thinking over the past few weeks and thought if i enclosed the lean to and put a bunch of sliding doors on the side for easy access and a double door with adjustable louvers on the one end for loading and add two huge barn fans on the other end would that speed up the process and would it be worth the extra investment in the sheeting, fans and labor (I can get them cheap since the neighbor added on to his barn and bought new ones and would sell them to me). The fans are 48" belt driven fans 3 phase that spin at 750 RPM and create 32,500 CFM from what the tag says (If needed I could maybe bump that up by changing pulleys if the motor would handle it). I pile my wood all the same way and have about a foot between the rows so the fans would be blowing into the end grain of the wood. The reason I would have multiple access doors on the side is so I could remove the wood closest to the fan as I would anticipate it drying faster and then replace it with green wood. What does everyone think of this idea for my local (within 50 mile) customers verses kiln drying everything. One concern I have is how to maintain the humidity other than just not running the fans on humid days, it would be kind of the same concept of a grain bin with a fan. Maybe there is some sort of humidity control that would automatically kick the fans on and off when the humidity level reaches certain points. I'm not too concerned with the electricity usage as the fans are only 1 hp 3 phase and it says the amperage is 2.6 amps. I currently don't have 3 phase power but it's at the electric pole which is only about 75' from the building so I can't imagine it would cost a whole lot to get that hooked up. I look forward to everyone's thoughts on this idea and thank you very much in advance.

I almost forgot to mention the entire roof on my lean to is brand new transparent panels so i get a lot of sunlight and it is much warmer when you stand under it.

Thanks Again & Have a great day!

Jason


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## dave_dj1 (Jul 31, 2014)

I don't see your idea wouldn't work but I don't think it would work for what you need.
You will have to get the wood up to temperature to be considered bug free. I would suspect you would need to have the kiln certified in some way too.
You could always make a wood fired kiln, if that is an option.


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## jason6586 (Jul 31, 2014)

Thanks for your reply, I think you misunderstood my post or I didn't explain it good enough. That set up would be different from the kiln, which is a totally different building. The kiln would only be for if i decided to become certified and sell outside of the 50 mile radius. I was mainly thinking about enclosing this lean to, putting the doors and fans in for taking green wood and try to dry or season it quicker and at a much greater capacity than a kiln for my local customers that by law dont require kiln dried firewood. Even if I could get my dry time from green to 20% to under a year I would be happy and view it as a win. Also i believe that I could offer a lower cost quality product verses running everything through a kiln because all I would have is electricity expense (that i don't expect to be high being 3 phase) and I could use the lean to for other purposes as well.


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## zogger (Jul 31, 2014)

As to the fans, with the broiler houses here, my boss found that changing the pulleys so that they spun a little slower increased electric motor longevity. Of course those start and stop a lot more often than what you would be doing, which is a lot closer to constant use.

Another thought is with you processing that much wood, you must get a certain large amount of "uglies" which might not be suitable for sale, but could be used as a heat source for that building to get the wood heated and dried to official kiln dried standards, enough to kill bugs, etc. 

So..maybe a lot more heat inside and less airflow?


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## haveawoody (Jul 31, 2014)

A cheap fast way to dry wood is a hoop house with a clear plastic cover and open ends.
A standard 1 year drying becomes 4 or 5 months in a clear plastic covered hoop house.
No need for fans, extra heat or any other drying other than good sunny days and well stacked wood not in contact with the ground inside it.
The differential of heat inside the hoop house and outside will draw moisture out of the wood at record speed.

You can make the hoop house yourself with 1" pvc pipe, pvc joiners and pvc glue and a bit of lumber or even pallets for he base support in a few hours.
Clear Plastic to cover the hoop house from tsc and pallets for the floor of the hoop house.


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## jason6586 (Jul 31, 2014)

zogger said:


> As to the fans, with the broiler houses here, my boss found that changing the pulleys so that they spun a little slower increased electric motor longevity. Of course those start and stop a lot more often than what you would be doing, which is a lot closer to constant use.
> 
> Another thought is with you processing that much wood, you must get a certain large amount of "uglies" which might not be suitable for sale, but could be used as a heat source for that building to get the wood heated and dried to official kiln dried standards, enough to kill bugs, etc.
> 
> So..maybe a lot more heat inside and less airflow?




I do have the 12x20 foot brick building that I would make into a kiln if i decided to go that route. If I was to enclose that lean to it would be just standard steel siding and un insulated as I wouldn't want to invest in insulating that large of a building. If i was to sell wood outside of my 50 mile radius I can just put that into the 12x20 kiln. So eventually if it all would go as planned and I had the demand I would be using both buildings and drying methods. I'm just trying to figure out if that amount of air movement would drastically speed up drying or just make it a little quicker as long as I could control the humidity.

Thanks


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## woodchuck357 (Jul 31, 2014)

Drying fire wood is not like drying lumber, the humidity doesn't need controlled just reduced. If the shed gets sun, stretch plastic over the open side to heat the wood and let the fans run all day. Or use black plastic or painted tin to make a tunnel and use the fans to draw the heated air thru then blow it thru the stacks of wood.


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## Jerryv88 (Jul 31, 2014)

I think the heat will do more drying than a huge amount of air blowing on it. As has been suggested, you want to make a solar collector with the wood inside it so that it gets hot. Some air should be drawn out, but too much air exchange will cool it down. A small vent in the top is probably enough. The hoop houses would work well but probably even better with about 90% of the ends blocked to retain more heat.

Jerry


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## haveawoody (Jul 31, 2014)

Jerryv88,

Hoop houses work real well with plastic on the ends with a decent size hole at the bottom of one end and the top of the other.
That setup makes for a natural ventilation and stops the plastic from starting to condensate with to much end closure.

Hard to say though if natural air movement with both ends open or as you say 90% ends closed to retain more heat is better at drying wood.
Each has it's plusses and minuses.


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## Poindexter (Jul 31, 2014)

Jason, a couple questions. It seems to me if your clear roofed porch was south facing you ought to be getting splits down under 15-20%MC in one summer season. So... 1. Which way does your clear covered porch face and 2. what kinda wood and how big of splits are your putting in there?

As for the rest, it just doesn't make "sense" to me to use eletricity to dry firewood so other people can burn the wood so they don't have to use as much electricity to heat their homes. You may very well make a buck on the setup, it just seems ironic or bizarre or un-natural or something.

Rather than ongoing electric useage, have you got room to put up a greehouse or hoop house (same thing really - clear sides and roof, raintight, with air circulation)?


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## GeeVee (Jul 31, 2014)

GREAT thread already. I think everyone has offered some great thoughts. 

I recognize Jason will only kiln dry wood already reduced to a low MC, and be largely killing bugs, and really inspection and certification probably isn;t going to be too hard in agri- rich wisconsin. I'm only guessing thats is his locale. He ought to be able to use a concrete building and uglies to make some serious heat and production of kiln finished wood to order. His problem would packaging and storing for the demand. A week of wood fired production would be followed by three weeks of delivering inventory. I think he has some barn space or use for hoop houses. 

His existing 20 by 120 lean-to is next to a big frickin barn and already has a good roof, and he's on the right track to enclose and ventilate and not care too much about exactly how fast, just knowing its faster- assisted, for a few bucks. 

I was surprised at first that the fans at 3 phase were going to pull so few amps. But then it made sense. 

You are definitely on the right track using some barn tech, and greenhouse tech, combined. 

Temp, Humidity, you control them, you have it licked, but as someone mentioned. -At what cost do you reach a point of diminishing return?


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## muddstopper (Jul 31, 2014)

I am just going to past along an observation I had last year. My buddy bought some green split wood and stacked it in his green house thinking it would dry it quicker. What really happened is the humitity shot way up in his green house and water was dripping from the plastic. Wood actually molded in just a couple of wks. I think if he had ran the fans in the green house, everything might have been alright, but stacking the wood under an enclosed plastic building/hoop house,/green house etc. doesnt work.


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## zogger (Jul 31, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> I am just going to past along an observation I had last year. My buddy bought some green split wood and stacked it in his green house thinking it would dry it quicker. What really happened is the humitity shot way up in his green house and water was dripping from the plastic. Wood actually molded in just a couple of wks. I think if he had ran the fans in the green house, everything might have been alright, but stacking the wood under an enclosed plastic building/hoop house,/green house etc. doesnt work.



Ya, you for sure have to ventilate it. They get hot in there and the humidity is unreal, and that is with a big fan running and shade cloth! It will max out a 120 degree thermometer easy by 10-11 AM in good sun without a fan. Ours does anyway in the summer. We leave the control set at 100 even and the fan is mostly on all afternoon.

If you were to make a hoophouse on a slight slope, and leave the ends open, with loose stacked splits, heat builds up and it would be self ventilating. I think that would be the easiest and no electricity required.


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## cantoo (Jul 31, 2014)

muddstopper, air flow is usually the issue with wood under plastic.


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## haveawoody (Jul 31, 2014)

I've tried open ended clear plastic hoop houses with about 1/2 the time for properly dried firewood stacks compared to right outside the hoop house.
They self ventilate, don't build up condensation, any amount of sunlight makes the inside of even an open end hoop house quite a bit warmer than the outside air.
I think as long as you make the wood warmer than the natural outdoor air it begins to shed water fast, having open ends to remove it just as fast makes it a simple system.

Some % of end closure has got to be a perfect amount for ventilation, heat build up and no condensation.
For me I didn't mess with what already worked very well to let the air flow full force as it wanted and indoors it was always warmer with any amount of sunlight.
Downside here in snow land is winter snow loads require a very hefty structure so making a year round one is not cost effective.


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## blades (Aug 1, 2014)

A frame - construction could be similar to hoop house- no snow load that way, wind shear is a concern but not much different than the hoop or other garage in a box rigs- Ventilation could be handled by a solar powered attic fan or similar if forced air is really needed. Do need to block ground based moisture -repurposed billboard tarps or old roofing rubber membrane can take care of that at very reasonable cost or free if ya get lucky. Could actually use those items for the whole thing- harking back to camping days, man the inside of a tent with no vents would get hot. 
Jason - you could just use the tarps to enclose the sides the fans would just be for circulation really do not need to have a forced are flow as there would be enough exchange in that type of loose construction. Access would not be a problem just roll up the area/side you wish to transit through.


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## kingOFgEEEks (Aug 1, 2014)

Just jumping in with some math here:

If your drying room is 12' x 20' x let's say 10' high, that means that to fully exchange all of the air in the room, a fan needs to displace 2,400 cubic feet of air. (that's assuming an empty room).

I wouldn't think you would need to exchange the air more than 1 or 2 times an hour, so 2 x 2,400 / 60 = 80. That means an 80 CFM fan would fully exchange the volume of air in an empty room twice in an hour.

Heck, a solar powered attic fan, or maybe two, can do more than that. You might even get that much flow from passive venting, with a vent down low on one end, and another up high on the opposite end.

Remember, if you exchange the air too fast, you lose any heat built up from solar gains or your kiln, so I wouldn't go crazy on the fans.


/Just my $0.02


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## blades (Aug 1, 2014)

Most of the solar kilns plans and pictures/descriptions I have looked at were just that - passive ventilation.


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## jwade (Aug 1, 2014)

tha


haveawoody said:


> A cheap fast way to dry wood is a hoop house with a clear plastic cover and open ends.
> A standard 1 year drying becomes 4 or 5 months in a clear plastic covered hoop house.
> No need for fans, extra heat or any other drying other than good sunny days and well stacked wood not in contact with the ground inside it.
> The differential of heat inside the hoop house and outside will draw moisture out of the wood at record speed.
> ...


thats an ingenious idea. how many cords do you process that way a year


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## woodchuck357 (Aug 1, 2014)

blades said:


> Most of the solar kilns plans and pictures/descriptions I have looked at were just that - passive ventilation.


Those were designed for drying boards.
Lower air movement is fine for drying lumber but for drying firewood more air movement is needed. wood dries because the air around it has lower moisture content and the moisture moves toward the drier. Heating air lowers it's relative humidity but without enough movement the air quickly becomes loaded with moisture and the wood doesn't dry any more. When drying lumber lowering the humidity of the air drastically causes cracking and warping. Cracks and warps are of no concern with firewood.
Fast drying requires sufficient movement of dry air thru the wood stacks.
Think of how good a clothes drier would work without forced air blowing thru it.


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## haveawoody (Aug 1, 2014)

Wish I could take credit for the idea but I borrowed it myself 

I used to dry a few cords a year with the pvc hoop house always about 1/2 the cure time of the exact same stacks outdoors.
Worked like a charm and very cheap to create used spring, summer and fall.
Winter it had to be taken down or crushed with snow loads.
Free wood pallets for floor and something to connect the pvc arches and plastic to.
Biggest expense is clear plastic but not to bad a cost a tsc, not uv treaded so only last a couple years though.

Now I have more stacks of firewood than I need to rush curing so one year it just didn't get built again.

If your every pushy for firewood to be cured quick and a system that goes up in a day at low cost pvc hoop house is the way to go.
With open ends even up here in Ontario Canada I never saw condensation form inside it.
In your location you would probably find it cures wood pretty quick and snow load wont be an issue LOL
So once you make one it can stay permanent.
Good tip if it's staying for extended lengths of time is rebar pounded into the ground to anchor it place, with heavy wind a hoop house makes a mighty fine kite.


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## muddstopper (Aug 1, 2014)

If you wish to use a hoop house design, you might consider using automatic foundation vents, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...F6940&ef_id=U675jgAABCTaEatw:20140801235703:s that automaticly open when the temps reach 70*F and close at 40*F. This way, you get air flow at the bottom of the wood pile only when temps are on the rise. Vents mounted at the bottom and top of the hoop house should create convection air flow that removes moisture and speeds drying. Just an ideal I had, dont know how well it would work.


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## CRThomas (Aug 2, 2014)

jason6586 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a small scale firewood business going now and I have orders for about 70 cords this year so far. I know that it will be more next year because of a few different things that I do for my customers that the other guys don't and I have had my phone ringing already for next winter with new customers. I started doing bundles this spring and have sold about 300 bundles this summer already. My problem is I can only sell my wood within a 50 mile radius without USDA-DNR certification and a kiln to kill the bugs. I have a cement block building that is 12'x20' that i really don't use other than for storage of mainly junk so I am looking at converting into a kiln if i decide to go that route. Right now I season my wood outside under a lean to roof next to my shed, the lean to is 20'x120' with a concrete floor so i can store a good amount of 16" chunks in there and for now its working well but i'm seasoning my wood about 1 1/2 to 2 years to get it to 15-20%. I was doing some thinking over the past few weeks and thought if i enclosed the lean to and put a bunch of sliding doors on the side for easy access and a double door with adjustable louvers on the one end for loading and add two huge barn fans on the other end would that speed up the process and would it be worth the extra investment in the sheeting, fans and labor (I can get them cheap since the neighbor added on to his barn and bought new ones and would sell them to me). The fans are 48" belt driven fans 3 phase that spin at 750 RPM and create 32,500 CFM from what the tag says (If needed I could maybe bump that up by changing pulleys if the motor would handle it). I pile my wood all the same way and have about a foot between the rows so the fans would be blowing into the end grain of the wood. The reason I would have multiple access doors on the side is so I could remove the wood closest to the fan as I would anticipate it drying faster and then replace it with green wood. What does everyone think of this idea for my local (within 50 mile) customers verses kiln drying everything. One concern I have is how to maintain the humidity other than just not running the fans on humid days, it would be kind of the same concept of a grain bin with a fan. Maybe there is some sort of humidity control that would automatically kick the fans on and off when the humidity level reaches certain points. I'm not too concerned with the electricity usage as the fans are only 1 hp 3 phase and it says the amperage is 2.6 amps. I currently don't have 3 phase power but it's at the electric pole which is only about 75' from the building so I can't imagine it would cost a whole lot to get that hooked up. I look forward to everyone's thoughts on this idea and thank you very much in advance.
> 
> ...


 On your bundled firewood do you sell Ash if you do I can dry Ash to 15 percent in my kiln every 24 hour I run a slow fan and a little heat that is tree cut down one day and split and put in my kiln at noon the next day at noon it's ready. I have friend he sells bulk wood and he puts a little Ash in the middle for his customers and they love quick fire and it last.


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## Poindexter (Aug 2, 2014)

I think we all agree that balancing temperature and air exchange is the key. I don't know that you can have too much airflow if the wood is hot enough for water to be evaporating. OTOH if I am moving air so fast the wood isn't heating up than I am not saving any time.

I did build the opposite once. I had a stack on pallets four feet wide, four feet tall and about 25 feet long. I covered the top and all four sides with a single sheet of clear plastic. I had a BUNCH of condensation on the inside walls after one sunny day, but not enough air flow to move the water out.

For now I cover on top and leave the sides open, but I had everything up and covered on May 15. I am pretty good now for personal use this winter, even after the wettest June and fourth wettest July on record.

I wonder if the OP could set the fans to kick on when the relative humidity in the shed hits 70% or so, and then kick back off when the RH inside the drying shed gets down to maybe 40% or so?

EDIT: Do get a written estimate on your 3 phase wiring before you commit. I got burned on that one pretty hard once upon a time.


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## blades (Aug 2, 2014)

3 phase- cost $1100 to go from pole to shop, about70 ft. 15years ago.


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## woodchuck357 (Aug 2, 2014)

Search for a home made rotary three phase converter for plans to build one from a three phase motor if the cost of running the line is to high.
As long as the air moving over the wood has a lower moisture content than the surface of the wood has you can't have to much air movement.


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## woodchuck357 (Aug 2, 2014)

CRThomas said:


> On your bundled firewood do you sell Ash if you do I can dry Ash to 15 percent in my kiln every 24 hour I run a slow fan and a little heat that is tree cut down one day and split and put in my kiln at noon the next day at noon it's ready. I have friend he sells bulk wood and he puts a little Ash in the middle for his customers and they love quick fire and it last.


The surface may be 15 percent but I doubt the inside is. With heat and vacuum ( the fastest way to dry wood ) a one inch ash board takes more than a week.


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## zogger (Aug 2, 2014)

woodchuck357 said:


> The surface may be 15 percent but I doubt the inside is. With heat and vacuum ( the fastest way to dry wood ) a one inch board takes more than a week.



Ash dries really quick.


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## cantoo (Aug 2, 2014)

I usually split my ash so that I get as much barkfree pieces as I can. What this means is I split off the bark and leave the bigger center pieces as big pieces. The barkfee stuff usually goes in the basement right away and the bark pieces go into my wire mesh crates to dry the bark.


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## CRThomas (Aug 3, 2014)

I stick and stack my wood for drying it helps speed up the process. But I only dry Ash that way. On average I only dry a rank every 24 hours if I look down the road and I for see might get busy I jump to 4 rank every other day. Heat air flow and a way to get the water out of your kiln. I heat with NG air flow 2 four foot fans if need to deh. My knotts go in my metal baskets or Dino bags being Ash out side its all dry in a month. Later


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## CRThomas (Aug 3, 2014)

You have to take in the type wood you are drying was it cut with the leaves on or the sap down the type wood. Some hard dry fast than others hard wood dry slow.


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## Sawyer Rob (Aug 4, 2014)

blades said:


> 3 phase- cost $1100 to go from pole to shop, about70 ft. 15years ago.



And then how much per month "just to be hooked up"? Around here, it's close to 50 per month to be hooked to 3 phase, whether you use it or not.

Rotary converters aren't free to run either, there's a cost to convert it, as in, you use electricity to make 1P into 3P.

SR


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## blades (Aug 5, 2014)

better way is a VFD ( Variable Frequency Drive), they are available 220 /1P in- output 220/3P~1P. By varying the frequency you control the speed of the motor, motor always has full torque. They do not suck up a ton of extra power like a rotary one does. One other style is a Static converter220/1p in- 220/3P out least expensive of the three. There is a loss of apx 33% hp with these.


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## Torch68 (Aug 6, 2014)

I get a catalog from FarmTek they are an ag house that carries hoop houses, fabrics, vents, etc., you may find something cheap to cobble together. I am sure their support team may offer up some suggestions as well.

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/home


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## CRThomas (Aug 21, 2014)

If you going to be in the firewood business you have to spend a little money penny pitching will sooner or later catch up with you my wife and i have about $250.000.00 to $300.000.00 worth of equipment. if we get bigger will will buy more but we at our full amount with out hiring help and that never happen.


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## Benjamin7548 (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi. Drying fire wood is not like drying lumber, the humidity doesn't need controlled just reduced. You can use Hydraulic Equipment for this.


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## blades (Aug 26, 2014)

Ben please explain how hydro would dry wood. We are not talking about splitting or transporting or cutting here, simply reducing the moisture content of the splits in a shorter time frame than Mother Nature on her own. Yes, hydro generates heat due to inefficiencies in the system but would be a very poor choice to try and re-purpose that by product as well as expensive. Actually the drying of fire wood is indeed very much like drying lumber , same principals apply difference being the 8% for limber vs 15-20% for firewood moisture content and of course we are not worried about warping, end splitting , or cracking.


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## motoman3b (Aug 26, 2014)

http://www.menards.com/main/p-2374416-c-10153.htm

I use something similar to this to keep my firewood in, holds up to snow in the winter. Had it for about 10 years now for the $350 or so I paid for it it doesn't owe me anything! I did leave the back end open and the doors end open so it gets good ventilation


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## 1project2many (Aug 26, 2014)

> My buddy bought some green split wood and stacked it in his green house thinking it would dry it quicker. What really happened is the humitity shot way up in his green house and water was dripping from the plastic. Wood actually molded in just a couple of wks.


Exactly. Heating the wood heats the moisture inside which means it wants to turn to vapor. But it has to be able to go somewhere. If it's retained in an enclosed space it won't "go away."



> Ben please explain how hydro would dry wood. We are not talking about splitting or transporting or cutting here, simply reducing the moisture content of the splits in a shorter time frame than Mother Nature on her own.


Rather than invest in electric infrastructure to run fans along with associated monthly billing even when the fans aren't used, a hydraulically driven fan powered by a diesel engine/pump might be a better investment.


Wood naturally moves moisture along the grain so making sure the ends are exposed is important. As the ends dry, moisture will naturally wick from the center out. Stacking wood with the ends exposed gives two paths for moisture to wick out of the log. Causing airflow over the ends accelerates this process and convection can be used to move air vertically along and between rows of wood. A drying shed with a southern face / south sloped roof, dark walls, and an open floor can stand through snow load and provide moving air in four seasons. My two sheds actually work even after the sun sets as the logs, heated during the day, heat the cool air of the evening enough so you can feel air exiting the top of the shed. This continues for up to two hours after the sun sets. I've dried wet (not green) wood in three months with these sheds.


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## STLfirewood (Aug 26, 2014)

blades said:


> Ben please explain how h. ydro would dry wood. We are not talking about splitting or transporting or cutting here, simply reducing the moisture content of the splits in a shorter time frame than Mother Nature on her own. Yes, hydro generates heat due to inefficiencies in the system but would be a very poor choice to try and re-purpose that by product as well as expensive. Actually the drying of fire wood is indeed very much like drying lumber , same principals apply difference being the 8% for limber vs 15-20% for firewood moisture content and of course we are not worried about warping, end splitting , or cracking.


The biggest difference is the temp. I dry firewood in my kiln at 195° . You don't dry lumber at those temps. I would love to dry at a higher temp but I use a boiler.


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## Marshy (Aug 26, 2014)

1project2many said:


> Rather than invest in electric infrastructure to run fans along with associated monthly billing even when the fans aren't used, a hydraulically driven fan powered by a diesel engine/pump might be a better investment.


 
Hydraulic driven fan eh? Why not just a belt? Belts are cheap... Even cheaper is no moving parts at all. I dont think its rocket science, to get moisture content down you need air circulation and keep the rain off it. The cover-all and PVC hutch is cheap and sounds effective compared to most reccomendations I've read. For what its worth, I'd start there for sake of minimal investment and more up as necessary. One thing to consider though is ground moisture. If you use a PVC hutch try to pick an area that has low gound moisture, i.e. gravel/stone surface as apposed to soil/grass. If you have concrete or blacktop that might be ideal.


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## blades (Aug 26, 2014)

The average firewood placed in a kiln is not a drying situation but a heat treat bug killer system. I do not remember the exact # but something along the lines of raising the internal temp of the splits to apx 160 deg for x # of hours. Yes, this aids in drying but sure doesn't get it down to 20% or less in the kiln in the overall scheme of things. Unless the firewood is left there for a considerably longer time at the elevated temperature. This is getting as bad as the wording of "seasoned vs drying" or ford /chevy/ dodge. For drying purposes a couple of large capacity dehumidfiers in a sealed container with the firewood just might get there faster and less cost than heating( disregarding the availabilty of scraps to fire a heating appliance) And a by product of a dehumidifier is heat although not enough to reach kiln temps. Most of these units will not work at ambient temps below 40 deg F.


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## Borz (Jan 11, 2017)

This thread is very interesting. I have been selling oak firewood in northeast Florida this winter, and have recently run out. I stacked two full cord together 8'x8'x4', stacked on pallets and wrapped up in a tarp on all sides except the bottom. I wrapped up a 3 foot diameter barn fan on one side and left a small corner open at the opposite side. The greenest wood is on the end opposite the fan, and the adjacent Side to the fan. It is 69° here with 67% relative humidity. I plan on running the fan for about 4-6 hours every day this week. The greenest would is very wet water Oak that was cut down and split up yesterday. I imagine this firewood will dry up considerably in one week despite the relatively high humidity/moderate temperature. I just don't know how much more I good the fan will do after the initial moisture evaporates. I will advise how things go using rudimentary techniques to test the firewood… A.k.a. burning it in my fireplace.


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## reddogrunner (Jan 11, 2017)

I stored about 1 cord in log length in an old steel stock trailer for a summer. not on purpose, but just could not get to it. When I removed the wood and cut it up, the wood was VERY dry. The steel was painted a dark brown, the roof was good and it had the open slats of the stock trailer. It got me thinking about buying a large shipping container, cutting in directional venting and placing in full sun. I bet it would dry awfully quick in full soon.


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## blades (Jan 11, 2017)

reddogrunner said:


> I stored about 1 cord in log length in an old steel stock trailer for a summer. not on purpose, but just could not get to it. When I removed the wood and cut it up, the wood was VERY dry. The steel was painted a dark brown, the roof was good and it had the open slats of the stock trailer. It got me thinking about buying a large shipping container, cutting in directional venting and placing in full sun. I bet it would dry awfully quick in full soon.


 Possibly but a bunch depends on the type of Wood and atmospheric conditions in your area. White Oak is not known for rapidly giving up moisture content. On the other end of the scale something like Silver maple would be good to, maybe, by the end of summer. Cross section of splits will also have an effect on time to dry as well.


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## muddstopper (Jan 11, 2017)

Since the start of this thread, I have given this a lot of thought. (not really). Anyways as ideals do, I just had one pop in my head. These type ideals are rarely useful, but fun to discuss. My main concerns for any drying process would be cost. With that said making the most of what I already have would be a necessity. If I took my current metal building, 24x24 I think, and painted it black, the temps would almost certainly hit 130f-135f degrees in full sun Maybe even a little more. I could add a couple of those whirly roof vent to the top to get air flowing out of the building and a couple of vents at the bottom to let fresh air in. Stack the wood on pallets so it wasnt touching the ground where the air could get under it. That should dry the wood pretty quick. It wouldnt be enough to kill off the bugs, but I would only have to raise the inside temps by about 30f-40f degrees to make that happen. Ideal number 2. Take a waterless furnace and connect the ductwork to the vents on the bottom of the shed and let the fan blow in the hot dry air. If you let the sun bring the building temp up before starting the furnace, it shouldnt take to much of a fire to get the temps up the remaining few degrees to kill the bugs. As ideals come and go, I had another one while typing. Number 3. I have seen a 8x16 solar water heater reach 180*temps in full sun. Just build the solar heater and run tubes under your pallets of wood like for a radiant floor heating system. Natural convection would circulate the hot water so it wouldnt take any electricity or you wouldnt need to tend a fire in a stove. I might ought to end here, I am about to have another brain fart and that could be hazardous.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jan 11, 2017)

Interesting. 
Listing the problem, lets call them challenges, is lowering the moisture content of firewood more quickly. That really isn't the problem, opps, challenge however. 
The challenge becomes, if your selling firewood, is to to do a lot of it, affordably, at a cost people will be willing to pay for.

My experience is everyone expects it, but few are really willing to pay an additional amount for it. It is simply expected. What is unexpected is to actually get good seasoned wood. Most actually expect crap firewood, because that is typically what they get delivered...which is why they don't want to pay more because they don't expect to actually get it. The wheel re-invented.

Most sellers cut and split in the summer and sell it the fall, if your a lucky buyer, or process it straight into the delivery truck the day of delivery. Lets call that "Popeye wood", "it is what it is!" ( A variation of "I am what I am!")
If your doing it for yourself you may find by Christmas your anywhere from one week to three years a head.

I built wood racks and that worked very well if left to season for a year. 
There were challenges with that too. Covering large groups proved hit and miss, as it funneled water where there were punctures in the tarps. Winter access was terrible. Individual covers were more work, but worked much better last year. With my changed approach, using pallets this summer, individual covers have been even more work this year, but seems to be worth it.

The rub with the racks was stacking. The rub with pallets is much less firewood per pallet, or per square foot of footprint. If you are talking inside seasoning or storage, that added footprint is going to be a challenge. If you go loose thrown you will have to load it some how, scoop it up, stack in a bucket if it is loose thrown on top of pallets, or even if it is all ready stacked. Moving it adds up to extra handling.

It is raining pretty good out right now. Half the pallets are covered, half are not. I cut my old tarps into six foot squares, folded the corners in 16" and stitched them so I could get my arm through to feed a cord, or baling twine, through each corner. When in place they look a bit like mushrooms, but seem to be working. So I bought some more new tarps and cut them up too. The free material from the lumber yard did not sew well at all with its flat threaded, slippery weave.

I still would like a pole barn or fabric shelter. Not for wood seasoning however, but to process wood in, out of the weather. I'm going with sun, wind, and individual covers for seasoning. Half my clients stack outside uncovered anyway. Delivery truck and small processor will be first on the list as they will save time and work. Who else selling wood really seasons anyway? 

One option: I may try with five cord for myself, is cutting 8" length rounds and possibly splitting two at a time. The thought being shorter splits may equal quicker drying. And also, with the palletizing, I might get a cord of 8" splits on three pallets, as opposed to 16" splits on four pallets. Maybe that will work against quicker drying if there is less air space. It will not stack for sure. However if I deliver with forklift/pallets it is a possibility.


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## absrio (Jan 11, 2017)

why are you guys so concerned with covering wood with tarps? it seasons faster if you let it get rained on. the moisture attaches to a small amount of the sap and pulls it out as it evaporates. just like licking your lips 100 times a day. the result? dry lips. same concept with firewood. some guys even spray water on their wood in the summer to season it faster. do a search its been discussed. many times.


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## T. Mainus (Jan 11, 2017)

Storage sheds are our main business. That keeps us busy from April to January 1st. All of our firewood gets processed from Jan. 1st until April 1st. Then it all gets sold in the fall. I have never had anyone complain about wood not being seasoned, not even the oak. We stack about 15 cord of oak a year in face cord racks that sit outside but are under a lean-to roof. This is our "premium" wood. Everything else stays in piles from the elevator. We are trying to buy a forklift/telehandler for the storage sheds and then use it for firewood as well. If that works out we are going to have some steel racks made that we can move with the forks on the machine. All wood gets thrown in the bucket by hand and then dumped into our dump trailer for delivery. We do about 30-50 cord a year depending on how much we get split.


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## muddstopper (Jan 11, 2017)

I dont cover mine with tarps. It lays in a pile, in the weather, until I get around to stacking it under one of those prefabbed metal carports. Just a cover as the sides are open. I can fit about 8 cord inside that shed. I am used to dry wood for my stove, but have plenty of experience burning green and semi dry wood. I dont sell wood so its not hard for me to keep dry wood for my own stove. Wood buyers want dry wood for some of the same reasons I like it. It just burns better, is easier to start a fire and it doesnt creosote up my flue. Whether or not people are willing to pay a premium for dry wood can be debated all day long. If I was selling a 100 cord a year, I think it might be hard to get that much wood dry in one season. It would just depend on the market and how much I was willing to invest in the proper resources to dry the wood. Lots of methods have been discussed as to proper stacking with the goal of having dried wood. A kiln would probably be the best way to get it dry in a short period of time, but who wants to take profits and invest in a $50,000 oven just to dry wood. I would have to sell a lot more than a 100 cords a year to even consider it. Looking for the next best way is what this thread is about, at least thats what I thought was the goal. Anyways, for economics, what ever method is used, it has to be cheap for the average firewood producer on this site. I am of the nature if I was selling wood and taking the time to dry it properly, a customer would have to pay my price or keep walking. geen wood goes for about $65 a rick, which is about 1/3 cord normally. Thats about $195 per cord. Keeping 100 cord worth of wood in storage for one year so it can season, ties up a lot of money. One has to decide just how much its worth to them to sell dry wood and price accordingly.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 11, 2017)

Having just put two of those whirlybird type vents in the shed roof i can attest to how much air those things either suck through or allow to pass through. I therefore I'd say the tunnellhouse on a slope sounds like a great way to get airflow over the splits.

The 20' containers are getting cheaper these days too. Vents down low at one end and a whirlybird vent up high at the other end might make for a reasonable drying room.

Yes, Sandhill, shorter splits do dry faster assuming your market will accept them.

Have mentioned this before but seeing as we are talking about cheap ways to hasten the drying, immersing the green firewood in a river for a day or three before setting it up to dry makes a big difference. More handling though.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jan 11, 2017)

absrio said:


> it seasons faster if you let it get rained on.


Really???


KiwiBro said:


> we are talking about cheap ways to hasten the drying, immersing the green firewood in a river for a day or three before setting it up to dry makes a big difference.


Really???
Not buying either one.
Edit: When I say I cover with tarps, I should clarify, I cover just the top of the pile to shed rain and snow, yet allow air flow through the pile.


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## muddstopper (Jan 11, 2017)

Actually, I think if you could dunk the wood in a pond for a while, it would dry faster once split and stacked. Might take more than a few days tho. I read something about about doing that for building log cabins, but dont remember all I read.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 11, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Not buying either one.


Me neither, at first. Was an old-timer who told me that and I thought he was pulling my leg. But I had to try it and was quite surprised. Only thing I can think of is the water helps dilute the sap so that it not only can't harden on the ends which tends to seal the fibres against moisture loss, but the diluted sap has a much lower boil temperature or can be pulled to the end via the pressure/moisture gradient far easier than sap.

Might be some other reason why entirely, but I know it works.

some googling rendered this:

"Immersion in running water quickly removes sap and then the wood is air dried. "...it reduces the elasticity and durability of the wood and also makes it brittle."[3]"

Riley, J. W.. _A manual of carpentry and joinery_,. London: Macmillan and co., limited;, 1905. 8. Print.

and this:

http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-Principles/451-Water-Seasoning.html

"On account of the time required to season timber the natural way, various methods have been tried to effect the same purpose in a shorter time. One of the best of these is to immerse the timber in water as soon as it is cut down, and after it has remained about a fortnight in water, but not more, to take it out, and dry it in an airy situation."


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## blades (Jan 12, 2017)

Op- you are on the right track with your shed- if you want add some solar heat - forget the hot water - just due solar hot air- cheaper- if you want add debugging add that furnace to the mix- blowers could be solar powered as well- fueled by scraps uglies and spliter leavings- stay with the 16" long but keep splits about 3-4" in cross section- buyers arn't going to be to crazy about 8" long pieces. - its all about air movement to carry away the evaporating moisture. 
Tarps on stacks - yes to keep rain/snow off put pallet sections under tarps on top of stack- again allows for air movement. best to peak in middle so any condensation runs off to out side edges.


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## reddogrunner (Jan 12, 2017)

I store mine in bins or baskets out in the full sun and wind. Uncovered. It sees to season well in 1 year, some woods needing more time like Hickory and Oak, which get 2 years unless customer request it at 1 year.


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## muddstopper (Jan 12, 2017)

I think immersion in water would be impractical for most folks. While the method is used mostly to prevent warping and checking for lumber, I think it would have little value to someone making firewood. Not saying it does or doesnt work, just that I dont have a large pond to store my wood in. For firewood, air drying and time are really all one can afford to do. If you sale wood in areas with diseases, or where the wood has to be heated to a certain temp to kill those diseases, some sort of kiln would have to be ultilized. At that point it becomes a numbers game. How much wood can you dry in a given time and at what cost. Solar kiln would seem to be the cheapest method, but certainly not as fast as some method that can provide more heat at a faster rate. Burning wood to dry wood just seems counter productive to me. While I have lots of junk splits I doubt I have enough waste to use wood as a heat source for drying. Electricity or gas would cost to much to allow for much profit saleing the dried wood. Stacking somewhere under a open shed with good air flow would probably be the most economical method, but once dry, the wood would still need to run some sort of heated kiln to kill off diseases.

I actually think my ideal of using a solar kiln and supplementing using wood heat to raise the temps for disease control might be the cheapest method. Cant really call it my ideal as I am sure it has already been tried. I dont think you could just pack the wood inside a shed and expect the solar kiln to work as efficiently as it would if the wood was dumped in baskets and placed inside with spaceing. I would probably want to use the baskets anyway just to make the putting in and taking out of the wood easier to handle. I have seen all kinds of solar heaters that are cheap to make and operate that people are using to heat their homes. Most have little fans for air movement, with air temps reaching 140*f. Should be enough heat to dry wood. I know I can stack some green wood next to my wood stove and it will dry out pretty fast.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jan 12, 2017)

jason6586 said:


> i'm seasoning my wood about 1 1/2 to 2 years to get it to 15-20%.





jason6586 said:


> entire roof on my lean to is brand new transparent panels so i get a lot of sunlight and it is much warmer when you stand under it.



Jason 6586:
Back to your situation.
Sliding door track is quite expensive.

You could build some weather protection panels from 2" x 4" on edge, with plywood triangles on the inside corners to square them up, and cover with reinforced plastic held on with lath strips on the face edge and #6 nails. You could use #6 duplex (double headed) but then if stacking the panels for summer you might snag the plastic more. You can do 16' panels with a divider, or nailer at 8', then use plywood triangles there as well, just harder to handle. You can also build in several hinged plywood passage doors if you want to in that length, which can double for ventilation. The panels could be removable for loading/unloading. Wedge a 2" x 4" or 4" x 4" upright every 16' to nail to and support the panels if need be. You may want to use a piece of treated nailed to the concrete for these posts to nail to. (To do that drill a 1/4" hole in the plate and into the concrete. Nail, using two 16 penny nails in the hole. Drive one further than the other, bending the longer one over, say a half inch. This gives you something to get a hold of if you want to pull it out at a later date. Pulling both nails together will spaul the concrete.) Maybe you could set the panels on blocks and leave an air gap at the bottom, and add some turbines on the roof. Leave the plastic long to cover the bottom edge. (snow?) Use nails to pin it up, poking thru the plastic as in sewing. Important to use reinforced plastic. Other plastic will not hold up very good to wind, and will break down (UV) into small pieces and be a huge mess in a year or two.

It is something you could try just to see if the idea of enclosing works before putting a lot of money in a hunch. The you can watch for condensation on the roof panels to judge degree ventilation. Look around large construction sites and you will see this type of panel for temporary windows, building access for equipment, brick layers, scaffolding, etc. I used to do this type of weather protection a lot on job sites when needed.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 12, 2017)

Borz said:


> This thread is very interesting. I have been selling oak firewood in northeast Florida this winter, and have recently run out. I stacked two full cord together 8'x8'x4', stacked on pallets and wrapped up in a tarp on all sides except the bottom. I wrapped up a 3 foot diameter barn fan on one side and left a small corner open at the opposite side. The greenest wood is on the end opposite the fan, and the adjacent Side to the fan. It is 69° here with 67% relative humidity. I plan on running the fan for about 4-6 hours every day this week. The greenest would is very wet water Oak that was cut down and split up yesterday. I imagine this firewood will dry up considerably in one week despite the relatively high humidity/moderate temperature. I just don't know how much more I good the fan will do after the initial moisture evaporates. I will advise how things go using rudimentary techniques to test the firewood… A.k.a. burning it in my fireplace.



I've got to ask, who the heck is burning a fireplace when it's nearly 70* outside?! FWIW, it's almost -15* here, it's not even 70* in my house!


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## blades (Jan 12, 2017)

ambience, grilling, and their blood down there isn't much thicker than [email protected] deg.


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## TeeMan (Jan 12, 2017)

I stack my wood in two rows with a little gap between each row on plastic pallets; not covered (I don't sell, just split for my own usage). Some of the wood like hackberry or white oak starts to get 'funky' if it sets for more than say two seasons, but the red oak (and water oak) usually takes 2 seasons to dry out. Pecan can be burned after one season, but I usually let it set for 2 just because it is hardy enough to not get too funky. And I think live oak (only have split up limbs from live oaks because these are truly too nice a tree to cut) can stay seasoning for a long time; it is very dense.

When I am ready to burn, I cover only the sections I am pulling from to burn with a corrugated roof sheet to keep the rain off. In Louisiana we have a lot of heat and humidity in the summer. Very rare for us to get snow, but we get ice/sleet occasionally. Just over last weekend when the temps dipped to the low 20's for three nights was when I had pieces of firewood that were stuck together from ice that formed when the rain froze...not often for us to get that, ha!


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## blades (Jan 12, 2017)

Sure, rub it in, we are pushing 2 weeks of rain sleet snow (can't make up its mind ) on again off again, and the lovely drop off to sub zero in between.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jan 12, 2017)

blades said:


> Sure, rub it in, we are pushing 2 weeks of rain sleet snow (can't make up its mind ) on again off again, and the lovely drop off to sub zero in between.


Yup. Schools closed, including GVSU a state university, for twenty five mile radius (further, north up the coast) due to ice this morning after a hard rain late last night.


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## blades (Jan 12, 2017)

wimps


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## blades (Jan 12, 2017)

I suppose that isn't fair as they don't get to play in that stuff very often.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jan 12, 2017)

Play bumper cars...


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## absrio (Jan 12, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Really??? Not buying either one.


thats handy cause I aint selling it. its a fact. do a search man, you'll see. or do your own experiment. take the hose and spray down one pile of wood, on a warm sunny day. wait a day or 2 then check it next to a stack that didn't get wet you'll see the pile you sprayed it full of checking and will be drier. . . or just don't believe me, I don't care. should be easy enough to prove me wrong, right?


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## KiwiBro (Jan 12, 2017)

muddstopper said:


> I think immersion in water would be impractical for most folks.


Agreed.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

absrio said:


> thats handy cause I aint selling it.


Nothing personal. I'm a skeptic by nature (probably more past experience). I'm not saying I'm right. Not saying your wrong either.

When I get pine sap on my hands it take gasoline to get it off, as soap and water does not touch it. 
And, I don't really know, but I thought the american indians used pine sap to seal the birch bark canoes. 

Perhaps water swells the wood and sap, or more likely, water, does move more freely. I do not really know what happens chemically when firewood seasons. Lumber can case harden if dried too quickly and traps moisture, so perhaps wetting wood has the opposite effect if controlled. Added moisture swelling the wood cells and thinning the membrane or something. 

Depending on how wood is stacked has a huge effect as well. The larger racks I built have three rows tightly stacked and the top third of the inner row began to mold and did not season unless covered, most likely due to lack of air flow and sun. The pieces that had bark, trapped moisture even after the bark had let loose. Those pieces were definitely much heavier.
It is a bit of trial and error for each of us. My guess is the covered wood will season better than the uncovered, especially if you are short on wind or direct sun.
Will this wood, a loose thrown 1/4 cord, season on pallets this way? I really do not know as it is new to me.
What is your guess?


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## absrio (Jan 13, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Nothing personal. I'm a skeptic by nature (probably more past experience). I'm not saying I'm right. Not saying your wrong either.
> 
> When I get pine sap on my hands it take gasoline to get it off, as soap and water does not touch it.
> And, I don't really know, but I thought the american indians used pine sap to seal the birch bark canoes.
> ...


nothing personal taken brother!! I'm a skeptic too. . . but, on a side note, I do believe in aliens. (totally kidding). 

nice set up btw!! I've seen pics you've posted before but I don't remember the net bags for some reason. I remember the racks of rounds, the splitter, and the conveyor though but most of all I remember that zztop beard!!!  . I would guess (just a wild guess) that spacing the bags out away from each other would help with air flow, and possibly prevent molding? even if it was only a 3 inch gap between each pallet. also it would give each your bags slightly more sunlight. 2 stacks high is great for maximizing your storage, but 1 stack high would give each bag more sunlight, and airflow. but idk if you have the room or not. like you said, its just a guess.

IDK the chemistry of seasoning wood either the only thing I can guess is that when it gets wet the water attaches to a small amount of sap and pulls it out as it evaporates. but thats just a guess.


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## absrio (Jan 13, 2017)

found this. skip to the bottom of page 13 for the chart. a very good read though if you have the patients. http://www.cchrc.org/sites/default/files/docs/WoodStorageBestPractices.pdf


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