# Crane tip-over.



## Hddnis

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091116/ARTICLES/911169936/1349?Tit








This happened near my wife's grandmother, a block or so over from what I understand.

There are another dozen or so images if you follow the link to the article. The piece that was too heavy doesn't really look all that big in the picture of it.



Mr. HE


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## GlennG

Nice crane. Grove 6350?


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## Canyonbc

That is an amazing story, that is 10 minutes from place. 

I am working 5 minutes from there tomorrow will have to see the damage. 

YIKE!!!

Have not been on arborist site in months either, just happened to go on tonight.

Great Post.


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## scotvl

whos at fault the crane operator or the arborist who was cutting the tree and made the load shift?


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## Hddnis

Canyonbc said:


> ...I am working 5 minutes from there tomorrow will have to see the damage...
> 
> Have not been on arborist site in months either, just happened to go on tonight...




Something must have been tickling your ears telling you we was talking about your area. 

If you learn any more about this incident please share with us. 

I probably won't visit down there again for a few months and so my chances of getting any more than what's in the paper is slim.

The picture of that boom just sliced through the house is incredible. I've seen stuff like that before, watched trees do it even, but it never ceases to give me a weird feeling. 

(Oh, I didn't cut the trees that went through the houses. Watched it during a windstorm, just in case anyone was wondering.)


Mr. HE


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## Canyonbc

Glad to here everyone is ok from it. 

Whew...


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## Rftreeman

scotvl said:


> whos at fault the crane operator or the arborist who was cutting the tree and made the load shift?


probably the one that said "ahh it'll handle it"...

or

"hey ya'll, watch this...here hold my beer".........


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## Canyonbc

I will let everyone know if I find anything out. 

Atlas is a large but well known company in this area. 

They were in Arborage or Tree Service Magaizne a couple months back for doing back country electrical clearance and stuff of that nature. There was a write up on them, if anyone remembers that. 

I have always heard good things about Rich and Atlas Tree. 

I have met Rich once, nice guy. 

There work always looks good. 

Will let everyone know if I find out anything


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## Canyonbc

Hddnis said:


> Something must have been tickling your ears telling you we was talking about your area.
> 
> If you learn any more about this incident please share with us.
> 
> I probably won't visit down there again for a few months and so my chances of getting any more than what's in the paper is slim.
> 
> The picture of that boom just sliced through the house is incredible. I've seen stuff like that before, watched trees do it even, but it never ceases to give me a weird feeling.
> 
> (Oh, I didn't cut the trees that went through the houses. Watched it during a windstorm, just in case anyone was wondering.)
> 
> 
> Mr. HE



Oh they were...

You head down to Sonoma County???

Where in the PNW are you living?


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## treevet

> There work always looks good.




Be hard pressed to get HO to go along with that.


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## deevo

Wow! That's crazy, are they going to be changing the name to "unreliable crane service"? In all seriousness it's a miracle no one was serious injured or killed in that mishap!


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## John Paul Sanborn

Could the OE see the size of the pick? Sounds like the climber made an error in his weight estimation and cutting style. 

If they were extended and low boom, then separation of a too heavy load that was not pretensioned could have done it. 

IS this another case of the foreman telling the climber to hurry up, we are almost done?

Would an over cab lift with the front outrigger down have made a difference?

My guess is poor communication between climber and OE on available capacity. If you are boomed down and out, then *ALWAYS*err on the side of caution.

Isn't coastal live oak around 70# per cuft? not that that was the species.


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## Treetom

*Rough calculations*

Live oak (green) is 238lbs per 1-foot section @ 24" diameter. The trunk in the video looked at least that. A 16ft long trunk would weigh 3808 lbs. That's a big crane, but once you add the jib and boom all the way out at a low angle, capacity drops dramatically.


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## tree MDS

treevet said:


> Be hard pressed to get HO to go along with that.



Lol. Good one!

I dont think that tree looked all that "sick" in photo 8 or 9 there, that looked like an amazing old tree to me. I hope those guys know what they are talking about...because they got some questions to answer now, thats for sure.


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## lego1970

Man, that's a bad day at work. I'm amazed with all the safe gaurds on the crane that it tipped over. I'm curious as to what caused that. My only guess is that either the outriggers on the back were not properly shored up, or the load started swinging, but that's just a guess. On a positive note, it's always good when you can learn from a mistake where at least nobody gets killed or injured. This way hopefully it can be prevented in the future.


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## tree MDS

"The arborist strongly recommended that the aging and sick tree be removed for safety". As it turns out, it looks like the old boy had a little fight left in him yet. lol.

Seriously though: I wanna hear more about what this tree was was "sick" with...in the shot with the climber in the canopy, it looked pretty good to me.

They got alot done by 2:30 though, I gotta say that much, they just shouldn't have gotten greedy (or whatever happened) like that - especially almost done! Too bad. At least nobody got hurt.


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## NorCalCutters#3

A few of my climbers used to work there and they ( atlas ) are hacks . They are a white collar get the job done quick and cheep outfit . They are big and get a lot of work . They have 2 crews. one all Mexicans and the other union for highway and commercial jobs . The owner is a tight ass living a a huge house and pays very little to his crew . He is hurting right now and need work so I think his son in-law talked them into removing this tree . We do have a lot of Sudden Oak Death but it looks healthy enough . Hard to tell with out a test or looking at the tree for bleeding . Atlas does a lot of jobs with the crane company so they all knew what they were doing . Maybe the climber did not finish the cut and the operator sucked it up and the load jumped up and then came down on the hook extra heavy . I will as the guys that I think are still there .


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## NorCalCutters#3

If you google the address you can see how much room they had in the yard. I see no reason why they wanted the crane at what $4000 extra . The job was $10,000 deducted form the sale of the house . It can happen to any of us . That guy in the tree is one lucky SOB :jawdrop:


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## Hddnis

My thinking was maybe SOD since I know that area has been hit. Last time I was down there I remember seeing a few trees that looked like they were killed by it. 

I really wish when I traveled down there I time for more than just visiting family; time to look around and visit with guys in the biz.



Mr. HE


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## lego1970

Now I see what they doing. I didn't see all the pics at first, so I thought it was kinda wierd that the crane went over when the tree was already down, but now I see the chunks they rigging. I was doing tree work with a friend who has a crane and got into a situation where the cranes override wouldn't let us move it after the cut was made. It was a good size Maple that had busted off onto a roof of a house after a storm. It was in a percurious position and hard to explain without photos. Our guesstimates (which is all they were) was off and after the cut was made safety limiters including the override switch wouldn't let us move it. Lowering the tree chunk down wasn't an option without doing a lot more damage to the house but luckily I was able to walk out on the trunk and safely rig down some other smaller pieces while it was suspended. That allowed enough weight off the piece to stop the override and allow us to lift it over the house. 
 
Another time I was in Arkansas doing some line clearance after a storm and had the bucket truck fully extended off to the side. I was only about 15-20 feet off the ground and all of a sudden as I was trimming, the tree starting growing upwards. I thought in my head this is wierd, then I realized the boom was going down, but luckily not at a real fast pace. When the bucket rested on the ground I thought somehow I must of snagged the lever just right with my clothing or the hydraulic lines from the saw causing the gate to open up and letting the lever to move. I could hear everybody in the background yelling and asking if I was ok (couldn't see real great because I landed in a bunch of brush), and I was yelling back to them that everything is fine so I kept trying to lift the boom but it wasn't going anywhere. Once I turned around to try and figure out what was wrong I could see that the outrigger had slipped off the pad and when into the little ditch along the road. The other outrigger on the other side was off the ground pretty good and I think the tires came off the ground a little to but can't remember. That happened about a couple months after I first started running a bucket truck 10 years ago. 

From those two experiences posted above, from doing off road bucket work on steep hills where shoring and leveling is extremely important, and from rigging equipment off of semi-trucks when I'm hauling flatbed, I've learned that there seems to be a lack of quality training and more importantly litature on the subject. It seems like all the crane operators I've come across (and I've worked a lot with them, especially thru trucking) don't ever really seem to know the math or physics behind it. The only thing I've ever learned or told from an operator is that is that once the load is suspended, and done swinging, when possible use the boom hydraulics instead of the winch for lifting because it's suppose to put the center of gravity back towards the crane. When I was doing the off-road bucket work I tried like crazy to find good info over the internet and even from Altec where we rented the truck to find what the capabilities are when a truck is off level. Since we were off road and didn't always have enough shoring timber the truck was sometimes not completely level side to side but I always tried to work on the high side. It always made me nervous as hell to fly it like that with no good training or even manuals that explain everything in depth. I think a little better training and or information would go a long way in crane or ariel boom safety. 

Aside from that and more to tree work what I really would like to see and I'll be honest I haven't every really studied is estimating log weight. I'm sure some guys know that stuff, so if any of you have any links to that type of info that would be great. Even if I never work with a crane again it would be nice to know the estimated weights of logs. 

Good post.


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## treevet

Some times infection and infestation can be used to dupe HO's into a takedown. A number of gypsies have been through my town telling ho's trees have EAB and they aren't even ashes. You call the cops and as far as they are concerned "it is just a civil matter.....how do I know if you are right or they are right.".

The economy can make trees very nervous.


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## treevet

lego1970 said:


> seems to be a lack of quality training and more importantly litature
> Aside from that and more to tree work what I really would like to see and I'll be honest I haven't every really studied is estimating log weight. I'm sure some guys know that stuff, so if any of you have any links to that type of info that would be great. Even if I never work with a crane again it would be nice to know the estimated weights of logs.
> 
> Good post.



The log chart is a good resource and can be found in the Sherrill catalogue or on pdf but logs are not always uniform or consistent and may have a void cavity in them or concrete, who knows. Shock loads, like sheeaht....happens too.

The biggest factor is the experience and common sense and intelligence of the players involved in the pick. I usually start small and work up when I am hooking up a piece anything questionable is gonna get a nod from the crane op. The person hooking up or the crane op should have worked up in experience that put him on this job site making these decisions as well. More so when booming over a house or some other delicate target extra care is a no brainer. That piece cut in half would have saved the day and taken maybe another 15 minutes.


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## treesquirrel

I need to print this image and put it in my bid folder for those potential customers that insist that a crane is the way to go and nothing else will do.


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## treevet

treesquirrel said:


> I need to print this image and put it in my bid folder for those potential customers that insist that a crane is the way to go and nothing else will do.



you do craners ts, whatdoya wanna steer them away from a good thing for?


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## treesquirrel

treevet said:


> you do craners ts, whatdoya wanna steer them away from a good thing for?



Naww, I'm commenting on the customers I speak to that are convinced it will require a crane to do a removal that just don't need it. You'd be surprised how many easy removals where I've had a customer immediately ask me if I have a crane to use.

If the job requires it I pass it on. But a surprising number of people think ALL trees have to be moved with a crane.

I did not mean any insult.


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## treevet

treesquirrel said:


> Naww, I'm commenting on the customers I speak to that are convinced it will require a crane to do a removal that just don't need it. You'd be surprised how many easy removals where I've had a customer immediately ask me if I have a crane to use.
> 
> If the job requires it I pass it on. But a surprising number of people think ALL trees have to be moved with a crane.
> 
> I did not mean any insult.



No insult TS, I agree completely. Most TD's are way faster without a crane. Gravity being faster than any 2 speed winch. (or lowering for that matter).


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## pdqdl

This picture pretty much tells the whole story:


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## treevet

damn....how'd the climber survive that? Must have been on the other side of the stick if they were picking that piece off the tree and not the ground.

Some lottery tickets need to be bought. Not much property damage either.


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## JohnH

I'm pretty sure you can put on a lot more counter weights on that crane. in the picture there does't seam to be that many at all.:dunno:


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## lego1970

treevet said:


> The log chart is a good resource and can be found in the Sherrill catalogue or on pdf but logs are not always uniform or consistent and may have a void cavity in them or concrete, who knows. Shock loads, like sheeaht....happens too.
> 
> The biggest factor is the experience and common sense and intelligence of the players involved in the pick. I usually start small and work up when I am hooking up a piece anything questionable is gonna get a nod from the crane op. The person hooking up or the crane op should have worked up in experience that put him on this job site making these decisions as well. More so when booming over a house or some other delicate target extra care is a no brainer. That piece cut in half would have saved the day and taken maybe another 15 minutes.



I agree especially in this case where as you mentioned 15 minutes more would of saved the day. Also I agree most is common sense, however I've been on a few jobs were someone want to keep the logs a certain length. Also while not tree related I've hauled many loads where the rigger on the delivery end either doesn't have a big enough crane or looks to me as if I should know his job better then him and or how far we can push his crane. My friends crane has a manual that is very broad and not specific towards his particuliar crane. Luckily the computer and engineers safegaurds does most of the thinking but it would be nice to have better manuals. It's like rebuilding a car using a Chilton manual,

"Take motor out, replace bearings, rings, and gaskets, put motor in engine bay and attach motor mounts, coolant, fuel, and electrical lines. You are now done" Attached is pics of a 1984 Buick Century while your trying to rebuild a 2000 Chevy. 

My friend is pretty cautious with his, and aside from what I posted above, we or he hasn't had any other close calls that I know of. Not that I'm big on regulations and not that I'm implying that there should be but it does kind of surprise me that you can buy and operate these big cranes with no formal license or certificate.

P.S. Thanks for the resources.


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## jomoco

The uppermost cut on that trunk looks mighty funky to me, too much up, sudden release, dynamic jump cut!

Something about that cut aint right?

That crane was plenty big enough, and then some.

jomoco


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## treevet

jomoco said:


> The uppermost cut on that trunk looks mighty funky to me, too much up, sudden release, dynamic jump cut!
> 
> Something about that cut aint right?
> 
> That crane was plenty big enough, and then some.
> 
> jomoco



I have to agree with that assessment as I just took a look somewhere else. Looks like he cut straight thru without a back cut and it held wood until it tore wood off the top section.

My tech is to back cut half way thru on the crane side and then make a perfect matching finishing cut on the side away from the pull of the boom. Most around here do that (crane subs will attest). Snaps off everytime without any side (unpredictable) holding wood.


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## jomoco

treevet said:


> I have to agree with that assessment as I just took a look somewhere else. Looks like he cut straight thru without a back cut and it held wood until it tore wood off the top section.
> 
> My tech is to back cut half way thru on the crane side and then make a perfect matching finishing cut on the side away from the pull of the boom. Most around here do that (crane subs will attest). Snaps off everytime without any side (unpredictable) holding wood.



Interesting TV, I do the same thing without ever leaving the cut, crane side first and walk it around to the release point away from me and towards the crane, one smooth clean cut around the trunk.

jomoco


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## treevet

jomoco said:


> Interesting TV, I do the same thing without ever leaving the cut, crane side first and walk it around to the release point away from me and towards the crane, one smooth clean cut around the trunk.
> 
> jomoco



that'd keep it matching...


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## Hddnis

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091117/ARTICLES/911179974/1349#


They got the crane out now.

There is some video and more pictures on the link above and the original link on page one.



Mr. HE


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## Hddnis

The wife of the couple that lived in and owned the home was in a traffic accident that morning and they were dealing with that when their neighbors called to tell them that the crane fell through their house.:jawdrop:


Mr. HE


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## jomoco

Other pics show it was crane operator error. The duffus was picking without his counterweights on.

He will be able to join the ranks of the unemployed soon I expect.

Major mistake.

jomoco


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## rbtree

JohnH said:


> I'm pretty sure you can put on a lot more counter weights on that crane. in the picture there does't seam to be that many at all.:dunno:




Yup, there's only one on, with the rest doing a good job of holding the back of the flatbed down  So, the crane became a 50 tonner, effectively. That's a hell of a lot of boom weight, jib and all, extended at a 45 degree angle or less.

The log that caused the failure is a complex shape. However, I don't think it would have flipped or tipped as the chokers can be seen near the top...Likely, the boom position wasn't correctly positioned to bring the load gently to vertical. The cutter may have not been gentle with it, while it was not tensioned enough. If so it may have tipped off and fell as it took the whole rig down with it.

I've never worked with a jib on, and wouldn't want to. It greatly limits the load chart.


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## rbtree

jomoco said:


> Other pics show it was crane operator error. The duffus was picking without his counterweights on.
> 
> He will be able to join the ranks of the unemployed soon I expect.
> 
> Major mistake.
> 
> jomoco



Yup, Atlas may have planned it that way to pay for the crane as if it was a 50 tonner, which is how it works......

It's also up to the cutter to be able to calculate the load, and know what the crane is good for. Major fail all around.....


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## treemandan

jomoco said:


> Other pics show it was crane operator error. The duffus was picking without his counterweights on.
> 
> He will be able to join the ranks of the unemployed soon I expect.
> 
> Major mistake.
> 
> jomoco



I suppose that might make a difference. really what else could it be, how do you shock load when picking a trunk? The stuff is heavy, real heavy at the bottom. It is soooo heavy down low and it adds up quick. I was never a great fan of making huge pics and don't really do and when it come to trunk pics I am really accounting for the extra weight. 
But man, no counter-weights? its a shame to see guy out there that gotta try crap like that.


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## jomoco

treemandan said:


> I suppose that might make a difference. really what else could it be, how do you shock load when picking a trunk? The stuff is heavy, real heavy at the bottom. It is soooo heavy down low and it adds up quick. I was never a great fan of making huge pics and don't really do and when it come to trunk pics I am really accounting for the extra weight.
> But man, no counter-weights? its a shame to see guy out there that gotta try crap like that.



The climber had to be as clueless as the CO!

I saw another angle of the climber's last cut on the trunk, and it's the strangest funkiest cut I've seen, almost an inverted snap-cut, but it's on the opposite side of the crane's path down side of the trunk!

Between a CO with no counterweights, and a climber making funky finish cuts completely backwards, it's a miracle no-one got seriously hurt.

jomoco


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## UnityArborist

The tree looked like an amazing specimen of an Oak. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but taking out an amazing tree like that must have taken a lot of sweet talking by the salesman. Looking at the before shots you cannot even see any dead wood up in the canopy. 

The $10,000 for the removal could have purchased years worth of preservation on that grand old tree. From pruning, to Cobra, to fert and spray for any affliction under the sun. The economic climate is tough, but trying to scare people into unnecessary tree removals is LOW. Really low, and I hope that we can all work hard to keep our business a float, and our moral standards high.


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## rbtree

jomoco said:


> The climber had to be as clueless as the CO!
> 
> I saw another angle of the climber's last cut on the trunk, and it's the strangest funkiest cut I've seen, almost an inverted snap-cut, but it's on the opposite side of the crane's path down side of the trunk!
> 
> Between a CO with no counterweights, and a climber making funky finish cuts completely backwards, it's a miracle no-one got seriously hurt.
> 
> jomoco



I'd not use a snap cut anyhow unless the load is vertical, especially when the crane was maxed (well, beyond actually). I'd either just make one cut and let the operator slowly lift it to as vertical as possible, or put a face cut in..... No sudden movements, which a snap cut can cause. Also, that motion would have slowly brought the load closer to the center pin.


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## rbtree

treemandan said:


> I was never a great fan of making huge pics and don't really do and when it come to trunk pics I am really accounting for the extra weight.
> .



I've done a lot of vertical conifer picks for log salvage with my favorite CO, who only has a 23 ton truck mount. Often 30-37 feet long, or weighing up to 10,000 lb. Just gotta be close, and finesse everything.

These poplar butts weighed 6000-8000 lb, i'm sure! Mike's truck mount with the rear outriggers that only extend a bit was the only unit that would fit between the two houses.








We really needed two chokers, set opposite....but not only did Mike not have any long enough, he only had one choker of the appropriate 7/8th size. And, it was barely long enough t go around the two largest butt logs....


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## rbtree

On this monster pine, the working radius was 70 feet. The crane co brought an old 120 ton crane, sans counterweights, so charged us as if it was the 90 I'd asked for.... He was darned close to his limit with this pick. He had to roll it around on the stump, till he could boom up and in a bit. Johnny's saw (my 42" equipped 3120) was a bit stuck.






This one was higher, but longer. I forget for sure, but it looks as if the operator was having trouble with it as well.






jomoco, I've always liked to set chokers/slings on the same side, as it allows the kerf to open up nicely while cutting from directly below the choke point in, and it allows the log to be set down much more easily than when the chokers are opposed. However, i think it would have made the logs easier to lift off the cut, if opposed. you agree?


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## rbtree

These two lombardy poplar were even larger. The larger of the two was 22'2" around up about 3 feet! Again, we were able to get the crane, this time a 38 tonner, close






big butted mommas!


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## treevet

We do huge picks on the edge of capability of the equipment at times. When you do most of the big take downs in an area that has very large trees then it happens sometimes. But you have to have a lot of experience and that brings finesse and educated judgement. Sometimes it is slowly standing the piece up and "feeling" the pick. Sometimes it is putting the piece on the ground and "walking" it in while retracting boom and getting more upright. Etc. etc.

I still feel that the cut as mentioned by Jon may have shock loaded the boom by bouncing it when it finally snapped off. There was a lot of work done prior to this accident and plenty of time to get accustomed to the lack of counter weight on the crane. We often load up the ass end of my small crane with logs for counter weight. Like I said, when it is a marginal cut (and I am subbing) it is up to the crane op if he wants to go thru with it. If he wants to know the weight of the piece I am gonna put a number on it for him. A few times I have even attached another dump truck to the back end of my 14 tonner to stabilize it. I fabricated some front mounted jacks on the bumper attached to the frame as well. There are so many variables here as in any pick. Watching the opposing (non weight bearing) outriggers is in order at times.

As for the choking ....sometimes opposing chokes are good and sometimes not appropriate. An example.....I recall an episode of "Chainsaw For Hire" where the guy picked a piece right next to an overhang of a roof (and right under it) and the piece tore the roof structure right off the house. If opposing chokes were used and wedges so the saw did not get stuck it would not have happened. But it is nice to be able to use the single sided choke on the side you are finishing to allow measured cutting and slow separation and keep pressure off the blade.


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## John Paul Sanborn

http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-091117-tosa-tree,0,2180801.story

Here is an "interesting" one I was on yesterday. All i did was set rigging and help coach the ground guys all day. I did around 10-15 rides on the wire. I'm glad that the Fox6 left that out in the editing, don't want OSH or _My Wife _to see that  

There just were not any really good TIP points in the tree with the decay courts. I had to move a few rig points down because of defects that concerned my with the picks. That and it was one of those sprawling twisty trees.

The reason for the huge picks was that they had a 55ft bucket to do the tree with  10 more feet would have been more productive, the street light across the way made for a few problems. Then there was the true line that snapped on the last top pick.

Over all it went OK, but the bucket guy tended to want the crane to force separation, untill the end and he started doing some very good snap-cuts.


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## jomoco

rbtree said:


> jomoco, I've always liked to set chokers/slings on the same side, as it allows the kerf to open up nicely while cutting from directly below the choke point in, and it allows the log to be set down much more easily than when the chokers are opposed. However, i think it would have made the logs easier to lift off the cut, if opposed. you agree?



I've rigged with opposing chokers the few times a perfectly vertical load lift was an absolute must, but generally speaking I prefer one choker, and heading my picks straight at the crane's center pin.

My heaviest pick with a 120 ton hydro was 28K.

jomoco


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## treevet

John Paul Sanborn said:


> http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-091117-tosa-tree,0,2180801.story



Great story and footage but surprised at the use of notches on chunk removals. I can see them sometimes if a leader has to slide out of a canopy or between trees but they almost always gonna give you shock load as they have to fall into the fulcrum of the bottom of the notch (to detach)(hinge in other words) and then they are gonna fall off the tree and into the side location of the sheave to accomodate all this giving shock load.

Interesting how they always gotta say we are "chopping" down a tree lol.


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## rbtree

My heaviest pick was 24k, with a 50 ton (its been 11 years, might have been an 80 ton). But it was a 9 foot giant sequoia, and the radius was under 30 feet.

The time for notches is if a large lateral is being lifted to vertical, and one cut might cause a bit of a barber chair, or splintering.

But cradling the load with two slings and lifting it out horizontally is common as well.

Good discussion, vet and jomoco know their stuff. You too, JPS, that's a tall elm!!!


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## rbtree

John Paul Sanborn said:


> http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-091117-tosa-tree,0,2180801.story



John, doesn't elm have to be debarked, burned or buried in that area? How about the wood, it makes fabulous furniture. I know you were just subbing, but hope it went to a better use than firewood. Here, there's at least three craftsman that take urban woods.

These guys are huge

www.urbanhardwoods.com


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## treevet

rbtree said:


> The time for notches is if a large lateral is being lifted to vertical, and one cut might cause a bit of a barber chair, or splintering.
> elm!!!



yeah, forgot about that one


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## UnityArborist

*in the news*

There was a picture in my local paper up here in Eugene Oregon. 

I was on a job site in Logan Utah back in 2005 when a 90' crane tipped. The boom punched a hole in the neighbors roof and crushed the brand new cedar fence and shed. The plan was to pic the top 30' off of a 70' cottonwood using a snap cut. The cut did not snap easily so more tension was applied, when it finally snapped the tree bounced up and shock loaded the crane. Tipping the whole rig over. The climber/owner of the outfit was out of the tree and was lucky he was. The boom scraped down the side of the tree where he had been and his rope still was. He would have been nothing more than a skid mark down the side of the tree had he not exited the tree. 

It is a surreal experience see something like that happen. I know I will not ever forget that day, it is stored in High-Definition. 

Be careful out there.


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## Taxmantoo

Hddnis said:


> The wife of the couple that lived in and owned the home was in a traffic accident that morning and they were dealing with that when their neighbors called to tell them that the crane fell through their house.



Good for them. Beats sitting in the house when the crane came down.


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## treevet

rbtree said:


> John, doesn't elm have to be debarked, burned or buried in that area? How about the wood, it makes fabulous furniture. I know you were just subbing, but hope it went to a better use than firewood. Here, there's at least three craftsman that take urban woods.
> 
> These guys are huge
> 
> www.urbanhardwoods.com



That is a real classy link, esp. the slideshow.


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## Hoister

It appears to be a Grove GMK 5210 or GMK5240 mobile AT .. by the counter weight configuration its rented out as a 100-125T unit..a very good 100ton class unit to boot ..not just barely..

The crane had counter weight ..that black slab on the rear of the upper superstructure.. if there was more ..its very likely that the boom may have buckled versus a tipping condition ..


the crane was shock loaded according to an article



from an operator's stand point ..the conversation of tree hoisting comes up in general discussion ..The general consensus is basically the arborist take out a general liability insurance policy towards the hoisting ,get stamped engineering of all the aspects of the operation including crane capacity, crane placement,dunnage,etc.. and the list goes on ..

main reason's some arborist are rouge, the other, its nature ..until its free no-one knows for sure what it weighs and the crane is married to it .
couple that with an arrogant cutter and crane wise ignorant crew ..and you get these picture's..

I'm sorry ..that cutter had the option to cut a smaller piece ..its a very large crane if you dont deal with cranes much, and again if a guy doesnt know the mechanic's that make crane's work ..their own conclusion's of the operator's nerve are drawn into question( he's lying,he's saying smaller to stretch the job,he's scared) and the crew will cut a bigger piece ..because its a big crane ..

500 ton cranes can be reduced to 3ton cranes easily even with 186,000lbs of counter weight on ..

Overall ..It wouldn't hurt for allot of arborist to approach the Iron Workers and Operating Engineer's ...and get some real tangible education into the world of hoisting ..it would be more than beneficial to both parties ..

just some general reading regarding the accident on other boards ..

***********************************/Forum/showthread.php?t=15430
http://forums.dhsdiecast.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123576&p=2


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## John Paul Sanborn

rbtree said:


> The time for notches is if a large lateral is being lifted to vertical, and one cut might cause a bit of a barber chair, or splintering.But cradling the load with two slings and lifting it out horizontally is common as well.



This is what we were doing, if there was a back or side lean the pick would be to bring the load to vertical.



rbtree said:


> John, doesn't elm have to be debarked, burned or buried in that area? How about the wood, it makes fabulous furniture. I know you were just subbing, but hope it went to a better use than firewood. Here, there's at least three craftsman that take urban woods.



DED is now considered endemic, if it is a brood log then homeowners have to dispose, but the tree companies are allowed to yard the carp up.

At 300/cord most wood is worth more as firewood right now. Most of the local mills will not take anything that is residential/homestead wood. the largest no longer will except any delivered wood.

I love the grain of Ulmus a. and Ulmus r. and hope to be able to get some floors in my house done with something I take down in the next few years.


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## treevet

jomoco said:


> Interesting TV, I do the same thing without ever leaving the cut, crane side first and walk it around to the release point away from me and towards the crane, one smooth clean cut around the trunk.
> 
> jomoco



I have had this stuck in my head and just gotta have an explanation JM. It sounded real good at first read but with a say 30" cut like in the pict maybe.....you will start on the right side of the piece (prob. if right handed) and make the bottom or face cut on the boom side (standing on spikes). 

Then you are going to work the cut (with the bottom of the saw blade I hope) back around the trunk to where it becomes a finishing cut while tacking with your spikes until you get on the left side of the trunk to finish.

The hole time you are moving around the trunk (with 2 tie ins (bucked in) I am sure) you are essentially spiking with "no hands" as both hands are on the saw cutting since "the saw never leaves the cut".

Or do you leave the saw running in the cut and take your hands off it to move or more logically turn the saw off in the cut and use your hands to move? If that is the case don't you think just staying on one side and making the face cut or back and then a finishing cut from the right side only would be better and quicker and more efficient (making sure you have a saw and bar big enough to get more than across the whole piece)? 

I thought you might mean you are using a bucket but you still have to take your hands off the saw to move the bucket to work the cut around to finish.

Not trying to pick at you (so don't neg rep me again Treeco cause that was my first ever) just very curious.


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## jomoco

I can make that circular cut around the spar with either the top or bottom of my bar TV, and yes I leave it idling in the cut alone when I need both hands to spin my lanyards around the spar.

Even standing on the ground making my base cut, the cutting procedure itself is the same, crane side first, then walk around to the release point.

Remember I'm talkin fat wood here in the 40 inch plus range.

jomoco


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## John Paul Sanborn

jomoco said:


> I can make that circular cut around the spar with either the top or bottom of my bar TV, and yes I leave it idling in the cut alone when I need both hands to spin my lanyards around the spar.
> 
> Even standing on the ground making my base cut, the cutting procedure itself is the same, crane side first, then walk around to the release point.
> 
> Remember I'm talkin fat wood here in the 40 inch plus range.
> 
> jomoco



I've noticed that my big wood cuts a very similar to a Koos Bay. I'll start 1/3 in on the right side, go to the left side to do the same, then rock around on the dogs to get 1/3 on the back before cutting to separate. I've done this on leaning stems that I did not think would jump off too.

The evolution of my doing this was cutting ears with a short bar. I used to start on the left side, but I said WTF I'll get the right side started while I'm here.

Another one I relearned from an "oldtimer" (~15 years my senior) for chunking. Make the back cut 90% to you and the bottom cut is real small and will snap off with ease. Very good when you need to control the separation.


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## treevet

jomoco said:


> I can make that circular cut around the spar with either the top or bottom of my bar TV, and yes I leave it idling in the cut alone when I need both hands to spin my lanyards around the spar.
> 
> Even standing on the ground making my base cut, the cutting procedure itself is the same, crane side first, then walk around to the release point.
> 
> Remember I'm talkin fat wood here in the 40 inch plus range.
> 
> jomoco



I can see it on the ground for sure but sometimes that saw is gonna want to vibrate right out of the cut in the air when you don't have a hand on it. 

We got some big wood around here too. Last year I removed a Bur Oak that was an 11 foot 11 inch ground cut and yesterday I made a visit to a 510 year old Bur oak that is not long for this earth that I have worked on and off over the decades (and so have the storms) that has about a 7 foot dbh. We had to cut it in half about 7 years ago when it squashed a house (previous co. had put in too small dia cables that broke in a down shear) that was 140 feet tall that, again, I had to cut in half due to other splits in co doms. That was an interesting crane job. 10,000$ and half of it is still there and that was a fair price it was so dangerous.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Except for willow we rarely see really big wood. That elm on TV was exceptional, it survived because it was down in the valley. With the storms that come off lake Michigan most tall tops are self pruning, which was why the elm came down.


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## pdqdl

pdqdl said:


> This picture pretty much tells the whole story:



NO IT DIDN"T!

When I posted the original message, it had a picture of all the cranes from the helicopter view of the whole scene. Somebody somewhere pulled a fast one on me, and now I can't edit the original post!

This message is intended to keep you guys from thinking I am some sort of retard, although it is probably too late for that!


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## Hddnis

pdqdl said:


> NO IT DIDN"T!
> 
> When I posted the original message, it had a picture of all the cranes from the helicopter view of the whole scene. Somebody somewhere pulled a fast one on me, and now I can't edit the original post!
> 
> This message is intended to keep you guys from thinking I am some sort of retard, although it is probably too late for that!




I just thought you were being clever about saying that they all ended up looking foolish and getting unwanted coverage in the media. lol


Mr. HE


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## lego1970

I saw the original crane pic you posted, and wondered why it changed.


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## treevet

lego1970 said:


> I saw the original crane pic you posted, and wondered why it changed.



I'll give it a go again......


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## tree MDS

Anyone know who's ins. co. would have to pay for that house??

I can imagine the ins. companies fighting over it while the HO's are burning up dealing with red tape/staying with the relatives. I had a lady's trees get killed when the neighbor's garage burned up (and some minor damage to her house), her ins. finally paid themselves...but it took 6 months to get settled.


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## John Paul Sanborn

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/north_bay&id=7123327

Here is some TV footage. The story says that it was a 50 ton capacity. Looking at the pictures it was jibbed out, so it might have been down to a few k-lbs with the boom down that far. I just cannot see that rig being a 100 ton capacity, maybe the 100 tone quote is the vehicular weight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLEaAqbfbY&feature=channel

here are several other vids on YouTube, It looks like the OE may not have been able to see the size of cut that was being made....


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## oldirty

guess who just found this thread.


let me read through before i start firing off on some of it.

although we wouldve been in the driveway that pick wouldnt have done us wrong like that.

i'm guessing he thought he hooked a phat large mouth bass and was giving her all he had and when the cut finally got finished she popped right off the stem the same way a hooked bass leaps out the water.

nice.....crane talk.


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## Dalmatian90

> Anyone know who's ins. co. would have to pay for that house??



Tree company is the general contractor. They should make good the loss to the homeowner.

The tree company & crane company no doubt will file claims against each other. Crane is probably the biggest loss in the picture, the two insurers will want to know what % of responsibility they bear to know how much their share to pay is. 

I'd bet most Homeowner's policies cover this as well, but they have such a strong subrogation claim to make against the contractor, the contractor's insurance probably prefers to just pay directly rather then go through the Homeowner's.


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## pdqdl

I can see what the problem was.

Somebody misjudged how much the crane could lift, but then the operators errors stood out.

That boom was way too high, and way too long. When the load tipped the truck up, the huge amount of boom shifted further out as it went down, gaining leverage and weight (relative to the fulcrum point). The truck, on the other hand, lost weight and leverage as it went up.

Before very long, the boom outweighed the truck and it didn't stop accelerating downward until Mother Earth caught it. 

If the boom had not been up at a steep angle, the dynamics would have been different, and it would only have pulled the boom down until the log hit the earth, then the operator would only have needed to feed out the winch to lower the truck.

It may well be that those cranes are not supposed to be operated at lower angles, though.


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## lego1970

pdqdl said:


> I can see what the problem was.
> 
> Somebody misjudged how much the crane could lift, but then the operators errors stood out.
> 
> That boom was way too high, and way too long. When the load tipped the truck up, the huge amount of boom shifted further out as it went down, gaining leverage and weight (relative to the fulcrum point). The truck, on the other hand, lost weight and leverage as it went up.
> 
> Before very long, the boom outweighed the truck and it didn't stop accelerating downward until Mother Earth caught it.
> 
> *If the boom had not been up at a steep angle, the dynamics would have been different*, and it would only have pulled the boom down until the log hit the earth, then the operator would only have needed to feed out the winch to lower the truck.
> 
> It may well be that those cranes are not supposed to be operated at lower angles, though.




Not trying to argue with a neighbor, but the steeper the angle the more you shift the center of gravity back onto the crane and more lifting capacity you have so the general rule of thumb is to always keep your boom as verticle as possible, instead of worrying about how to recover from a mistake.


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## pdqdl

Well, sort of. By keeping the boom as vertical as possible, you keep the load as close to the truck as possible. Then torque is reduced for any given weight. But when the boom is up higher than necessary to reach the same distance from the crane pivot point, it increases the amount that the booms swings away from the truck when it's capacity is exceeded.

All cranes are engineered around a certain torque capacity. The torque applied to the truck is the same for any given load, whether the boom is low to the ground, or the jib is extended way up. The only thing that counts is distance from center x total weight= torque.

Exceed the torque capacity, and you will tip every time. Extend the boom too much, and it increases the risk of a load becoming unstable and exceeding the capacity. This is clearly what happened on this job, since the boom kept falling to the ground long after the log hit the ground and was no longer pulling down.


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## Hoister

"*That boom was way too high, and way too long.* 
Yes a crane is a inherently a first class lever
Your concept of the boom length and angle in regards to the latest generation mobile hyraulic crane is incorrect..

The newer hydraulic cranes,such as the one involved in this incident ,gets its capacity on the elevation of the boom when rigged with jib. The main boom is made to bend and compress.. A lower angle means the boom has less structural integrity due to bending.. the higher main boom angle means the boom is now compressed more so than bent and a higher structural integrity is achieved ..allowing for a greater capacity at a large radius..
More over at that radius, its a certainty that full on main boom capacity was lesser than the capacity main boom less a section with the jib erected ..



As in one article a gentleman from Procrane was quoted as saying "A shock load started the whole thing" 

the crane capacity was 7600lb's ,the load supposed to be 6000lbs..not a bad deal if it's coming of the ground versus mid air ..
I wasn't in the seat but when that load drifted of the trunk ..there was two sudden load moments ..Based on the loads and capacities as they were reported

the first was the crane getting the load ..boom deflection made the whole thing deflect and also increased the radius ..
..but the crane didn't go over then ..it sat there lurched and groaned ..but she didn't go over at that point ..

the second :As the accelerated load lost its momentum against the resistance of the crane..the excessive deflection of the boom that was generated means the boom began to back up accelerating the load back up ..then as the boom stopped deflecting up it deflected back down under its own momentum.. giving slack to the load ..the load then changed direction accelerated towards the ground this time with enough force to haul the machine over ..because simply the whole boom had a downward momentum and the rest of the crane had also changed from a static position to a dynamic position ....


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## Hoister

lego1970 said:


> Not trying to argue with a neighbor, but *the steeper the angle the more you shift the center of gravity back onto the crane and more lifting capacity you have so the general rule of thumb is to always keep your boom as verticle as possible*, instead of worrying about how to recover from a mistake.



depending on the load ..more boom can offer a greater radius..Because the boom is being compressed versus being bent ..

Thats the basic concept and your right ..


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## lego1970

PDQLD,

If you place the boom only as high as needed to reach the load and keeping a short leash on it via the winch your boom angle will be greater and therefore shift the center of gravity away from the truck. If you raise the boom as high as possible and lower the cable to the load you are shifting the center of gravity back towards the truck. I understand your point about the higher up it is, the more the load would swing before it hit the ground and yes that would compound the problem. Also while I couldn't tell from the pics it looks like the the white ladder extension is out but the cable is not being lowered from that point and I believe once the telescoping part is extended the white extension can't be swung back and stowed away like it normally would be, so if that is true I don't know how much that would take into account.


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## Hoister

The main hoist was over the lattice extension ..the sheave is up and the line is out, the crane was working of the jib ..theres no question ..


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## pdqdl

Nope. That is not how it works.

In fact, by extending the boom out, more metal is further away from the truck (thereby moving more weight further out), and the tipping capacity for any given distance and weight is reduced.

Torque is what tips a crane over. It is only a two dimensional consideration, since all the forces are governed by gravity. EVERYTHING is straight down.

So the math involved with tipping the crane is simple: distance from center point x weight of the load=torque. Exceed the torque, and over you go.

An example might be a 10,000 lb log 100' feet away from the crane. If the tipping torque of the crane is 1,000,000 lbs, then it will tip over when extended out while picking up the log. Why? The weight of the boom will add to the weight of the load, and it will exceed the tipping torque limit. The hook won't stop going down until the applied torque is reduced. 

It will not matter one little bit if the boom angle is high with lots of cable, or low with a short cable. The log still applies 1,000,000 foot pounds of torque onto the crane.

If you want to look it up, do some research on vector mathematics. You probably forgot, but they made you do that stuff in the 8th or 9th grade.


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## pdqdl

Hoister, I think you might have some expertise here. Feel free to pitch in.

While it is provably true that the boom angle does not determine the torque applied to the crane, I suspect that there may be other reasons that a crane operator might want to keep the boom angle high.

1. I suspect the boom itself is a bit stronger in a more vertical position.
2. Extending the boom in and out is a bit slower to operate than tipping up and down. This might be a big advantage when moving wood back and forth.
3. The greatest wear point on the crane structure is on the sliding contacts between the boom sections, so the crane will have lower maintenance if the operator does not go "in and out" any more than necessary. This is particularly true for the multistage hydraulic cylinders on the inside, which are OMG expensive to get fixed.

Conversely, the hydraulic cylinders have a reduced weight load on them when the boom section is carried lower, so less strain on the lift cylinders. I have a little 12k knuckleboom crane, and it will stall under load as it goes up higher, since our hydraulic system is a bit worn.


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## Dalmatian90

> So the math involved with tipping the crane is simple: distance from center point x weight of the load=torque. Exceed the torque, and over you go.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you want to look it up, do some research on vector mathematics. You probably forgot, but they made you do that stuff in the 8th or 9th grade.



You're right on the vector mathematics, but you're using an overly simple formula for this example.

T=r*F*sin(a)

T = torque
r = distance
F = force applied
a = angle between the distance (the crane's arm) and the Force (the downward pull of gravity)

When you apply a force perpendicular, the angle = 90 and thus the sin(a) = 1. So T=r*F is true, because it's equivalent to T=r*F*1. That's your basic torque wrench since you apply you're arm's force to the handle at 90º.

With the crane at 45º, the calculation is:

T=100' * 10,000# * sin(45) = 707,000ft-lbs

With the crane at 70º, the angle between the downward force of gravity and the boom is 90-70=20º, so the calculation is:
T=100' * 10,000# * sin(20) = 342,000ft-lbs

So with the boom at 45º, you have about 365,000 more pounds of rotational force being applied then when the crane is at 70º.

Now those examples are somewhat simplified -- in real life we have some additional weight from the boom to take into account; the pivot point of the crane may not be where the boom meets the platform; and you have factors like shock loading, wind loading, and the momentum of the object when rotating the crane to take into account. But the single biggest factor is the angle of elevation of the boom and the weight of what is being lifted.


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## Hoister

pdqdl said:


> Hoister, I think you might have some expertise here. Feel free to pitch in.
> 
> While it is provably true that the boom angle does not determine the torque applied to the crane, I suspect that there may be other reasons that a crane operator might want to keep the boom angle high.
> 
> 1. I suspect the boom itself is a bit stronger in a more vertical position.
> 2. Extending the boom in and out is a bit slower to operate than tipping up and down. This might be a big advantage when moving wood back and forth.
> 3. The greatest wear point on the crane structure is on the sliding contacts between the boom sections, so the crane will have lower maintenance if the operator does not go "in and out" any more than necessary. This is particularly true for the multistage hydraulic cylinders on the inside, which are OMG expensive to get fixed.
> 
> Conversely, the hydraulic cylinders have a reduced weight load on them when the boom section is carried lower, so less strain on the lift cylinders. I have a little 12k knuckleboom crane, and it will stall under load as it goes up higher, since our hydraulic system is a bit worn.



#1 your right

#2 Incorrect ..Scoping the boom in and out only leads to intemediate boom lenghts and reduced capacities..Cranes have a load chart determined by the manufacturer..the boom lenghts are all predetermined and are normally better than intemediate boom lenghts ..because of the angles involved ..
#3 dont confuse a crane to a telescopic fork lift ..they are not the same ..


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## Hoister

Dalmatian90

In a nut shell ..thats the point ..

In the past Ive used the "screw driver opening a paint can " anology ..the longer the driver the easy it is to open the can ..


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## Adkpk

rbtree said:


> John, doesn't elm have to be debarked, burned or buried in that area? How about the wood, it makes fabulous furniture. I know you were just subbing, but hope it went to a better use than firewood. Here, there's at least three craftsman that take urban woods.
> 
> These guys are huge
> 
> www.urbanhardwoods.com



Wow, nice web site.


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## lego1970

pdqdl said:


> Nope. That is not how it works.
> 
> In fact, by extending the boom out, more metal is further away from the truck (thereby moving more weight further out), and the tipping capacity for any given distance and weight is reduced.
> 
> Torque is what tips a crane over. It is only a two dimensional consideration, since all the forces are governed by gravity. EVERYTHING is straight down.
> 
> So the math involved with tipping the crane is simple: distance from center point x weight of the load=torque. Exceed the torque, and over you go.
> 
> An example might be a 10,000 lb log 100' feet away from the crane. If the tipping torque of the crane is 1,000,000 lbs, then it will tip over when extended out while picking up the log. Why? The weight of the boom will add to the weight of the load, and it will exceed the tipping torque limit. The hook won't stop going down until the applied torque is reduced.
> 
> It will not matter one little bit if the boom angle is high with lots of cable, or low with a short cable. The log still applies 1,000,000 foot pounds of torque onto the crane.
> 
> *If you want to look it up, do some research on vector mathematics. You probably forgot, but they made you do that stuff in the 8th or 9th grade.*




Yes, sadly all I have is an 8th grade education and even then my math level is more like 5th grade. Having said that I believe I could learn math but I do not have the time nor money to hire a tutor to help me and also the school courses I've checked into are already too advanced for my level. Therefore, I can only try to visualize physics and geometry in my head without numbers. Thanks anyway for trying to explain it.


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## corsair4360

The simple rule of thumb is that any crane has the maximum lifting capacity next to the center of pivot or pin where the load is transferred to the ground. The greater the distance from the pin, the lower the capacity. 

For instance, a 300 ton crane that was on our heavy construction job site many years ago was down to 170 tons at 180 feet from the pin, not your average crane and not the average lifting job by any means. That crane was many truck loads (a Manitowoc 4600 ringer) just to get it on the job site.

All cranes today have lifting charts in them for safety so the operator has some idea of the limitations of that machine. The big challenge with a tree section is what does it weigh, and that is no easy task unless you stay conservative. Wood density is quite variable within a species and highly variable between species. Better estimate the number of cubic feet in the lift and use a conservative estimate of the weight per cubic foot before attempting a lift. Overloaded cranes are really dangerous, as this example shows.

If you are experienced with crane work in the area and the species involved hyou are better off, but estimating the weight is something that it is easy to get wrong.


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## lego1970

I did a little small scale test so I could visualize what is happening and from what I could tell, Pdqdl is correct. I think maybe where I was getting it wrong was because in most situations you try to get the truck as close as possible to the load and shorten the distance and in doing that a lot of times the boom has to be raised to do that. From that I guess I was getting the center of gravity part wrong in thinking that the angle of the boom was affecting it. Now as others mentioned the boom can probably handle more weight when it's being compressed rather then bent, but I guess that doesn't affect the tipping of the truck? 

I took my son's toy fire truck and put it on a flat wooden chair with a empty milk jug hanging from the end of the boom. I positioned the boom off to the side of the truck, and lowered it so it was completely horizontal, and it stuck outwards 12" with the telescoping part completely retracted. 3oz of water was it's tipping point. I then raised the boom to 45 degrees and extended it's telescoping part so it was again 12" from the side of the truck and once again 3oz of water was it's tipping point. I did the test three times and the results were the same everytime. Granted this is a small scale test, not excact in measurement, and there is probably a lot more to it, but I think the small scale test was close enough to prove Pdqdl right. 

I don't like being wrong or not able to understand things but I guess life is a never ending learning process. I have a "Physics Made Easy" book which I really like because it's filled with drawings and gives me a visual to try and understand things but as I said, I can't do the math. However tommorow night my neighbor (who's a construction supervisor and good with math) said he would try to show me the math towards this subject. I hope I can figure it out because this would be good info to know for both tree work and when I'm hauling flatbed. 

Great Post!


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## treevet

Dalmatian90 said:


> You're right on the vector mathematics, but you're using an overly simple formula for this example.
> 
> T=r*F*sin(a)
> 
> T = torque
> r = distance
> F = force applied
> a = angle between the distance (the crane's arm) and the Force (the downward pull of gravity)
> 
> When you apply a force perpendicular, the angle = 90 and thus the sin(a) = 1. So T=r*F is true, because it's equivalent to T=r*F*1. That's your basic torque wrench since you apply you're arm's force to the handle at 90º.
> 
> With the crane at 45º, the calculation is:
> 
> T=100' * 10,000# * sin(45) = 707,000ft-lbs
> 
> With the crane at 70º, the angle between the downward force of gravity and the boom is 90-70=20º, so the calculation is:
> T=100' * 10,000# * sin(20) = 342,000ft-lbs
> 
> So with the boom at 45º, you have about 365,000 more pounds of rotational force being applied then when the crane is at 70º.
> 
> Now those examples are somewhat simplified -- in real life we have some additional weight from the boom to take into account; the pivot point of the crane may not be where the boom meets the platform; and you have factors like shock loading, wind loading, and the momentum of the object when rotating the crane to take into account. But the single biggest factor is the angle of elevation of the boom and the weight of what is being lifted.



I am still waiting for OD to get into this discussion (lol). Hey this is all Greek to me as well but I can certainly read a load display and chart and approximate the weight of a piece.

But I think the variable you all are ignoring is the holding power of a sliver (see top of remaining trunk) of oak wood. And the shock load and downward recoil force applied after it responds to this shock when it suddenly detaches. There is a lot less finesse involved with a huge crane like this as compared to a small 30 or less ton crane when feeling this resistance prior to it popping off. Kind of like using a surf casting fishing pole to catch small crappies. And the length of the boom with the jib attached and boomed all the way out and hanging significantly on a downward angle would accentuate this recoil.

Note the piece remaining on the top of the trunk.


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## treevet

This was a highly technical removal done very skillfully up to this point. Just shows how one little mistake or error in judgment can ruin everything


----------



## treevet




----------



## treevet

And again you have to wonder why this tree was removed....


----------



## Adkpk

treevet said:


> And again you have to wonder why this tree was removed....



I agree 100%. Is there no protection for trees like this one in that State, county, or town? If not who's asleep at the wheel. 

The home owners must be from outer space not to see the value of a specimen such as the one that caused the demise of their cozy llittle abode. I feel no sorrow for these people myself. It's as if God willed it this way. 

I do hope there is some investigation as to why and who decided to remove it. 

I know in most of the towns I work in that tree would not be allowed to be cut without a permit. Meaning certain landmark trees are protected by the town and carry a hefty fine if violated. 

If I was in charge on this one I would make sure that that tree company (Atlas) was monitored as to what they were proposing to remove for a few years until they prove they are on the right track to "tree care".


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## ROOTSXROCKS

jomoco said:


> The uppermost cut on that trunk looks mighty funky to me, too much up, sudden release, dynamic jump cut!
> 
> Something about that cut aint right?
> 
> That crane was plenty big enough, and then some.
> 
> jomoco





UnityArborist said:


> The tree looked like an amazing specimen of an Oak. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but taking out an amazing tree like that must have taken a lot of sweet talking by the salesman. Looking at the before shots you cannot even see any dead wood up in the canopy.
> 
> The $10,000 for the removal could have purchased years worth of preservation on that grand old tree. From pruning, to Cobra, to fert and spray for any affliction under the sun. The economic climate is tough, but trying to scare people into unnecessary tree removals is LOW. Really low, and I hope that we can all work hard to keep our business a float, and our moral standards high.





UnityArborist said:


> There was a picture in my local paper up here in Eugene Oregon.
> 
> I was on a job site in Logan Utah back in 2005 when a 90' crane tipped. The boom punched a hole in the neighbors roof and crushed the brand new cedar fence and shed. The plan was to pic the top 30' off of a 70' cottonwood using a snap cut. The cut did not snap easily so more tension was applied, when it finally snapped the tree bounced up and shock loaded the crane. Tipping the whole rig over. The climber/owner of the outfit was out of the tree and was lucky he was. The boom scraped down the side of the tree where he had been and his rope still was. He would have been nothing more than a skid mark down the side of the tree had he not exited the tree.
> 
> It is a surreal experience see something like that happen. I know I will not ever forget that day, it is stored in High-Definition.
> 
> Be careful out there.





Hoister said:


> "*That boom was way too high, and way too long.*
> Yes a crane is a inherently a first class lever
> Your concept of the boom length and angle in regards to the latest generation mobile hyraulic crane is incorrect..
> 
> The newer hydraulic cranes,such as the one involved in this incident ,gets its capacity on the elevation of the boom when rigged with jib. The main boom is made to bend and compress.. A lower angle means the boom has less structural integrity due to bending.. the higher main boom angle means the boom is now compressed more so than bent and a higher structural integrity is achieved ..allowing for a greater capacity at a large radius..
> More over at that radius, its a certainty that full on main boom capacity was lesser than the capacity main boom less a section with the jib erected ..
> 
> 
> 
> As in one article a gentleman from Procrane was quoted as saying "A shock load started the whole thing"
> 
> the crane capacity was 7600lb's ,the load supposed to be 6000lbs..not a bad deal if it's coming of the ground versus mid air ..
> I wasn't in the seat but when that load drifted of the trunk ..there was two sudden load moments ..Based on the loads and capacities as they were reported
> 
> the first was the crane getting the load ..boom deflection made the whole thing deflect and also increased the radius ..
> ..but the crane didn't go over then ..it sat there lurched and groaned ..but she didn't go over at that point ..
> 
> the second :As the accelerated load lost its momentum against the resistance of the crane..the excessive deflection of the boom that was generated means the boom began to back up accelerating the load back up ..then as the boom stopped deflecting up it deflected back down under its own momentum.. giving slack to the load ..the load then changed direction accelerated towards the ground this time with enough force to haul the machine over ..because simply the whole boom had a downward momentum and the rest of the crane had also changed from a static position to a dynamic position ....


Exactly, I now see it clearly, the operator of the crane was tugging a little to hard when it gave way. 
I didn't see this other topic prior to my post on the second one. this now makes much more sense. 

Perhaps the two should be merged 

I compleatly agree the tree should not have been removed, I saw no danger that outweighed the value of that tree


----------



## NCTREE

That looked like one beautiful tree, it's kind of disgusting to see what people will do to serve their wallets.


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## Taxmantoo

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> I compleatly agree the tree should not have been removed, I saw no danger that outweighed the value of that tree



I saw no danger that outweighed the danger of the crane, anyway.


----------



## tree MDS

If you use the search function here and punch in "sudden oak death", member mantis posted a link to an article regarding SOD. Now I can understand why it may have been a possibility that that tree did need to come down.


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## jomoco

:greenchainsaw:


tree MDS said:


> If you use the search function here and punch in "sudden oak death", member mantis posted a link to an article regarding SOD. Now I can understand why it may have been a possibility that that tree did need to come down.



Your honor I object!

Pure hearsay on counsel's part, with no corroborating evidence!

Move to strike from the record sir!:greenchainsaw:

jomoco


----------



## tree MDS

jomoco said:


> :greenchainsaw:
> 
> Your honor I object!
> 
> Pure hearsay on counsel's part, with no corroborating evidence!
> 
> Move to strike from the record sir!:greenchainsaw:
> 
> jomoco



Gotcha.

You would, of course have to send a cutting or some :censored: off for testing to be sure is what your saying right? Lol.


----------



## jomoco

tree MDS said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> You would, of course have to send a cutting or some :censored: off for testing to be sure is what your saying right? Lol.



It's an excellent example of instant karma taking a big juicy bite out of the entire range of agonists responsible for the forced euthanasia of one of the community's most venerable senior citizens.

That magnificent oak probably only needed a few cables to support it's co-dominant heads up top to last another century! It appears to have been lovingly maintained for 150 years up till now.

If that tree was healthy?

Removing it was a crime in my opinion!

jomoco


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## Blakesmaster

jomoco said:


> If that tree was healthy?
> 
> Removing it was a crime in my opinion!
> 
> jomoco



I wouldn't go that far. I'm a big advocate of personal property rights and think the HO absolutely has the final say in that decision and if they wanted to hire me, I'd do it. However, if the HO's were talked into removal with shady tactics and fear mongering that is another thing entirely...


----------



## jomoco

I've always done a little God forgive me prayer in my head before removing a big healthy tree, regardless of species.

Mess with nature enough and She'll mess with you.

Tree's are the most giving thing on the planet in my opinion!

I guess I must be a druid?

jomoco


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## Adkpk

I know this may be a bit idealistic but imo the house should never have been built under a tree like that. It's the towns fault for not for seeing that someone would have an issue with living under a monster such as that beautiful tree. Should of deeded that piece of land a park. People are stupid. If the tree had a say it should have pulled the crane down on top of the house. Oh, right, it did. :greenchainsaw:


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## John Paul Sanborn

Some random comments here.

By reading the articles, the comments from the tree worker(s)

the piece broke off suddenly and shocked the crane, the boom was jibbed out and low, the load was heavy. This will cause a fish poling of the boom; it flexes a few feet down causing the load to accelerate, maybe enough for the force of the load to over load the near max capacity. In these situations you want to have some pretension, and the sheave directly over head, and make a snap cut that needs no force to separate, and not so close to max-cap.  

By the book this is a *critical lift* and you should be working around half of capacity, not trying to push the limit.

Another case of people thinking they know what they are doing, and screwing the pooch.

The climber is the luckiest man on sooo ways. The OE should have told them to cut some 500# chunks.


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## pdqdl

Dalmatian90 said:


> You're right on the vector mathematics, but you're using an overly simple formula for this example.
> 
> T=r*F*sin(a)
> 
> T = torque
> r = distance
> F = force applied
> a = angle between the distance (the crane's arm) and the Force (the downward pull of gravity)
> 
> When you apply a force perpendicular, the angle = 90 and thus the sin(a) = 1. So T=r*F is true, because it's equivalent to T=r*F*1. That's your basic torque wrench since you apply you're arm's force to the handle at 90º.
> 
> ...



No, I did not use too simple a formula. You used the formula for calculating torque from the length of the boom and the angle of the boom, essentially the hypotenuse of the vector triangle of any given lifting situation.

I used the true (and simplest) torque formula, as depicted on the lift chart on most cranes: lift capacity at distance from center of the crane. Nowhere on those charts (at least the ones I have seen) is there any chart value for "angle of boom". But maybe some cranes are different. 

My formula is essentially the base of the vector triangle where it meets gravity at a 90° angle, a more practical application of vector mathematics, since a tape measure and a known weight will enable a crane operator to know whether it is a safe load. No sine chart needed, no guesswork about what the true angle might be.

Otherwise, your analysis and math are top-notch.


----------



## treevet

jomoco said:


> I've always done a little God forgive me prayer in my head before removing a big healthy tree, regardless of species.
> 
> Mess with nature enough and She'll mess with you.
> 
> Tree's are the most giving thing on the planet in my opinion!
> 
> I guess I must be a druid?
> 
> jomoco



Here is a photo of a tree I rescued (all others wanted to remove it) that was hit with a severe down shear and crushed the south side of the residence. There were 3 other major split co doms that threatened the property. There was a natural canopy half way down the canopy and above there to the 150 foot top there was very little until the lush top.

This tree was increment bored at 480 years old in 1980 by Ohio State University. Some of the cuts appear to be in err by being flat topped but they were left this way as there were laterals on both sides aiding in preventing die back. The ones you see with naked tops are dead and will be removed soon. This was done 8 years ago and there has been only that die back last year and that prob. was a result of 2 years of severe drought the 2 prior to last year.

I had a crane in the road above the drive as the drive has a steep hill next to it. This is a case where the HO's were not afraid of the tree squashing their house and it did but....they were soon to build an addition right where it hit. So everyone (and the tree) wins to some extent.


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## VA-Sawyer

Back in post #81 ( I think ) Dalmation90 shows that raising the angle of the boom reduces the tipping torque. That is true, but he doesn't explain that it also reduces the radius from center. In order to maintain the same working radius the boom ( lever length ) has to get longer as the boom is raised. This results the same tipping torque for any given radius. PDQL is dead right on this. The cranes I have been operating don't care how much the boom is extended vs boom angle. All weight limits are based on working radius from pivot center. Note: Only true without Jib.
Rick


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## jomoco

Looks like about 8 crane picks to me TV!

Just kidding!

Oak I presume?

jomoco


----------



## treevet

jomoco said:


> Looks like about 8 crane picks to me TV!
> 
> Just kidding!
> 
> Oak I presume?
> 
> jomoco



Biggest Bur Oak in the state of Ohio prior to its misfortune. 2 blocks from my house on Hillcrest Dr. in Cincinnati. As with any picture, it is much larger than the picture would lead you to think.


----------



## Hoister

VA-Sawyer said:


> Back in post #81 ( I think ) Dalmation90 shows that raising the angle of the boom reduces the tipping torque. That is true, but he doesn't explain that it also reduces the radius from center. In order to maintain the same working radius the boom ( lever length ) has to get longer as the boom is raised. *This results the same tipping torque for any given radius. PDQL is dead right on this. The cranes I have been operating don't care how much the boom is extended vs boom angle. All weight limits are based on working radius from pivot center*. Note: Only true without Jib.
> Rick



No its not ..I can show you structual integrityover tipping ..cranes are not all tipping ..they have a structual aspect as well ..I dont know what youve been running ..a few makes and models with shots of the charts would be nice ..

Most the newer generation cranes are based on structual integrity and have no line on tipping ..in theroy the crane will blow a beam or bust a boom before it tips ..
Torque though a basic prinicipal of to older style Grove crane ..Isnt the way the newer cranes are designed ..load moment, structual strenght ..With that in mind Its also posable to add 28,000lbs to a boom and still increase lifting capacities are an increased radius ..because the boom is now compressed ..versus bent..Its called super lift ..or SSl class of cranes ..


----------



## Hoister

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Exactly, I now see it clearly, the operator of the crane was tugging a little to hard when it gave way.
> I didn't see this other topic prior to my post on the second one. this now makes much more sense.
> 
> Perhaps the two should be merged
> 
> I compleatly agree the tree should not have been removed, I saw no danger that outweighed the value of that tree



How was the crane operator tugging to hard ..it shock loaded the crane when it drifted of the trunk ..there wasnt enough pull to lessen the drop ..

probably because the cutters saw was binding in the cut ..no operator in his right mind would pull more than the quoted weight ..


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## Hoister

..based on the chart below ..
#1
With 3500lb load whats the maximum radius attainable 
110ft main boom ..3500lb load whats my maximum radius ..

With 100 foot main boom ,at a 60 foot radius whats the maximum capacity
With 62ft main boom 54ft jib in service at 60ft radius what's the capacity ..



Just for jeers and chuckles gentilemen ..:jester:


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## VA-Sawyer

I did say " on the cranes I have operated " I cerianly don't have enough experience to say "all cranes". 

Notice on the chart that in *most* cases you have a greater lift capacity using a lower boom angle for a given radius. There are exceptions at 55' and 65'.
The chart for the crane I've been using lately looks more like yours inside of 64' boom length. No heavy line for structual limit vs tipping. 
They don't have a jib on this one, but the one I ran before did have one and the limits with the jib were screwy. As I recall, you couldn't couldn't boom below 30 degrees at max extension if the jib was extended. You had to retract the boom before you could lower it enough to install or remove the jib. The jib help to gain elevation but not radius if I remember it right.
Rick


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## ropensaddle

jomoco said:


> I've always done a little God forgive me prayer in my head before removing a big healthy tree, regardless of species.
> 
> Mess with nature enough and She'll mess with you.
> 
> Tree's are the most giving thing on the planet in my opinion!
> 
> I guess I must be a druid?
> 
> jomoco



Jomo I did not know you were a tree hugger


----------



## jomoco

ropensaddle said:


> Jomo I did not know you were a tree hugger



What yu talkin bout Rope?

Only rookies hug trees that take them for rides!

A real pro triangulates and pushes against the tree, moving with it as one.

I'm sure most veteran mass murderers have regrets about what they do!

jomoco


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## ropensaddle

jomoco said:


> What yu talkin bout Rope?
> 
> Only rookies hug trees that take them for rides!
> 
> A real pro triangulates and pushes against the tree, moving with it as one.
> 
> I'm sure most veteran mass murderers have regrets about what they do!
> 
> jomoco



Yeah sure they do lol. I have taken down quite a few that likely would still be fine today. I have very few regrets though as it would have been another service if I declined. My family and their living come before me or any tree.


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## ROOTSXROCKS

rbtree said:


> Here, there's at least three craftsman that take urban woods.
> 
> These guys are huge
> 
> www.urbanhardwoods.com


WOW Im in love these guys are right up my alley, I am making plans to visit there studio in SF in a couple of weeks Thank you for the Link. this will be the star of my trip.
Oh yeah Im a tree hugger too but that cherry was dying I swear


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## VA-Sawyer

Hoister,

Here are my answers to your questions:

110' main boom 3500lb load max radius?

at full extension, no jib installed 60' (same if jib stowed)
retract to 94', no jib 65' ( same if jib stowed )

110' (you typed 100' but the chart is for a 110'boom ) main boom @ 60'radius max load?

at full extension, no jib 4000 lbs ( 3750 with jib stowed )
retract to 78' no jib 4900 lbs ( 4550 lbs with jib stowed ) 
Notice that jib stowed chart lists 76' instead of 78' need to confirm
that it is only a typo.

62' extension on 110' main boom and 54' jib installed working at 60' radius.

116' total boom @ 60' radius is about 57 degrees boom angle.
54' jib at 57 degrees is good for 1300 lbs.

Rick


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## treevet

VA-Sawyer said:


> below 30 degrees at max extension if the jib was extended. You had to retract the boom before you could lower it enough to install or remove the jib. The jib help to gain elevation but not radius if I remember it right.
> Rick



It appears on his chart you do not drop the boom below 44 degrees if fully extended with the jib on.

With my small truck crane you can actually feel the truck getting tippy if you are not playing by the rules. Probably not the case on these big ones but maybe a buzzer goes off or it stops operating? The chart and the weight of the pick goes out the window when a piece is stuck on the trunk. No way to figure that one under any scenario.

Wonder the outcome of this thang. Do they finish the job with the giant crane? When finished does the client pay the bill likely after their house is fixed?


----------



## VA-Sawyer

TreeVet,

I agree with you about chart numbers going out the window when dealing with wood chunks still on the trunk. 
I prefer to keep loads in trees to 50% of chart limit. If I was using the crane hoister posted the chart for, I may lower it to 25-33% of chart limit, if that limit is structual. A chunk doesn't have to fall far to hit with 2 G's. Structual overloads happen instantly in steel. Even if it doesn't fail then, it remembers the overstress and can fail at a lower limit later.

The crane I'm currently running is at a home construction site on a mountain. It is sitting with the front of the truck higher than the rear. ( about 10 degrees ) That throws the chart out the window as well. 
Rick


----------



## BC WetCoast

Blakesmaster said:


> I wouldn't go that far. I'm a big advocate of personal property rights and think the HO absolutely has the final say in that decision and if they wanted to hire me, I'd do it. However, if the HO's were talked into removal with shady tactics and fear mongering that is another thing entirely...



The City of Vancouver has just instituted a maximum $10,000 fine if any tree greater than 8"dbh is cut on private property WITHOUT a permit.

The notion of personal property rights is idyllic at best. It has never truly existed and never will. Regardless of where you live, you can't open a toxic waste dump in your backyard, or build a 37 story skyscraper on your city lot.


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## treevet

VA-Sawyer said:


> TreeVet,
> 
> I agree with you about chart numbers going out the window when dealing with wood chunks still on the trunk.
> I prefer to keep loads in trees to 50% of chart limit. If I was using the crane hoister posted the chart for, I may lower it to 25-33% of chart limit, if that limit is structual. A chunk doesn't have to fall far to hit with 2 G's. Structual overloads happen instantly in steel. Even if it doesn't fail then, it remembers the overstress and can fail at a lower limit later.
> 
> The crane I'm currently running is at a home construction site on a mountain. It is sitting with the front of the truck higher than the rear. ( about 10 degrees ) That throws the chart out the window as well.
> Rick



Great points VA Sawyer....besides being off level you need to stay away of being marginal when cribbed to the max as well. We have a very hilly town here and have had my crane and a subbed 30 ton truck crane with the bumper well over head level in some jobs.

This is a great informational thread. One thing not discussed very much is the crew (aside from the op and the climber). IMO these jobs are the most demanding for ground personnel of any in the business. In this case it involved communicating from the back yard to the front yard while blind (which we do quite often). Sometimes the op cannot even see the climber on picks and this is even more dangerous. Walkie talkies are advantageous 
but only somewhat. This job likely involved the gm communicating and identifying weights of picks. There had been numerous picks beyond (boomed out even further) the catastrophic pick prior to the house so they must have been correct in these estimates or....again it was the case of the piece still attached to the trunk that caused the dirty deed. 

Also the gm needs to be highly skilled at cutting under pressure and recognizing that pressure. When the op sets a piece down in a very tight spot that will not fit the piece then it has to be whittled down quickly, efficiently and professionally. No newcomers wanted here. I had a new crew once where one gm was a decades old experienced pro and his buddy was not. We were booming into a very tight spot. I was in the tree. If I am in a bucket I don't mind booming down sometimes to help out. 

But I gave explicit orders that the relatively inexperienced new guy was not to even TOUCH a saw. Well, I guess the guy thinks he knows more than I do and next thing he is cutting a hanging piece up and damn near cuts his leg off. I had to come out of the giant tree and take the dumass to the hospital while the crane was on the clock.

He didn't even want to use my WComp and because of that my guess is he had drugs in his system. He was fine except for a bunch of stitches. But a dumass like that prob gonna get run over on the street at some point.


----------



## Hddnis

BC WetCoast said:


> The City of Vancouver has just instituted a maximum $10,000 fine if any tree greater than 8"dbh is cut on private property WITHOUT a permit.
> 
> The notion of personal property rights is idyllic at best. It has never truly existed and never will. Regardless of where you live, you can't open a toxic waste dump in your backyard, or build a 37 story skyscraper on your city lot.




Shame on the city of vancouver.



Mr. HE


P.S. I didn't capitalize because vancouver just went down in my opinion.


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## ROOTSXROCKS

it seems to me that personal liberty with property ends when it affect the liberty and enjoyment of your neighbors property.

removal of large trees affect the surrounding properties and the ambiance of the whole street.

so Yeah Im behind the city on this one, a permit Inspection to validate the necessity to remove is a good thing.


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## Hddnis

Well, then I'm glad you live on the other side of the country. Maybe we can ship some like minded people over to live with you.:greenchainsaw:



Mr. HE


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## ROOTSXROCKS

were the houses are more than 15 feet apart, I think this is less important, but here a lot of snowbirds want to clear cut so there precious winter homes are "safer" from the hurricanes during the summer when they are away. regardless of the impact that the loss of canopy has on the rest of the ecology and micro climate.

however Even On vast acreage if your actions detract from the vistas and beauty of the area, I see were fellow owners might want to do something.


----------



## treevet

I have called my city's government numerous times to see if they want to give input in a decision to remove or leave a historical tree when it has become dangerous. I have given up as either they do not want the liability or they are confident in my basis and knowledge for decisions.

In any case more often than not, the local government will not have someone capable of being the deciding force in such a predicament. A highly educated and ethical private arborist will most of the time be the right one to make the decision. 

My inclination if I was just a homeowner would be to talk to 2 or 3 highly reputable arbs and make my own decision based on that rather than having the govt. (yeahhhcccchhhh) get involved.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> it seems to me that personal liberty with property ends when it affect the liberty and enjoyment of your neighbors property.



I agree, though some communities take it to extremes; no parking in the driveway, keep the garage door closed at all times, no parking of an RV...

I am in favor of property maintenance ordinances that are similar to building codes. Since you will be passing on the property, you cannot alter parts that will cause problems for future owners. Such as lopping large low limbs, topping, poor planting practices, driveways right next to very large trees. Though the last is a big money maker for me


----------



## Adkpk

There should be some federal laws written up and handed down to towns to use. Reports would be made up and rewarded with funding for towns who are complying and showing signs of interest to their trees. If you look after your trees then your probably looking after the rest of the town and therefore doing responsible things with federal funding. 

Many things about trees and wood are becoming very valuable and we need to protect and educate people to this. 

If the guy who sold that tree job needed a permit to remove that tree I bet it would be still be providing shade and a beautiful sight to the neighborhood. 

Look at it this way: if that tree was across the way from you, providing you with that view in the pic and one day your came home to find it gone. Asking and finding out the tree was healthy, wouldn't you wish you had some say?


----------



## treevet

Adkpk said:


> There should be some federal laws written up and handed down to towns to use. Reports would be made up and rewarded with funding for towns who are complying and showing signs of interest to their trees. If you look after your trees then your probably looking after the rest of the town and therefore doing responsible things with federal funding.
> 
> Many things about trees and wood are becoming very valuable and we need to protect and educate people to this.
> 
> If the guy who sold that tree job needed a permit to remove that tree I bet it would be still be providing shade and a beautiful sight to the neighborhood.
> 
> Look at it this way: if that tree was across the way from you, providing you with that view in the pic and one day your came home to find it gone. Asking and finding out the tree was healthy, wouldn't you wish you had some say?



What I always tell a HO with a huge decurrent tree standing isolated or many marginally threatening trees is to talk to your insurance agent if you are bent on keeping them all, and make sure you are covered in any event of failure outside of negligence. Make sure the deductible is not a killer too.

I was surprised how much my agent says it costs to add such coverage on to existing HO ins. policies.


----------



## Dalmatian90

> That is true, but he doesn't explain that it also reduces the radius from center. In order to maintain the same working radius the boom ( lever length ) has to get longer as the boom is raised.



Ah, gotcha -- yes, I wasn't dealing at all with operating radius. The math does work out for a lift at any given operating radius the torque will be the same regardless of the elevation, like the chart posted above shows (within rounding errors anyway).

However, PDQL was also saying:



> An example might be a 10,000 lb log 100' feet away from the crane. If the tipping torque of the crane is 1,000,000 lbs, then it will tip over when extended out while picking up the log.



And that's only true if the boom is extending out 100' at an elevation of a right angle since sin(90º) = 1.

Once the boom comes up at an angle, you need to figure in the sin(a), a being the angle between the boom and load, which will always be equal or less then one thus reducing the torque.


----------



## Taxmantoo

Adkpk said:


> Look at it this way: if that tree was across the way from you, providing you with that view in the pic and one day your came home to find it gone. Asking and finding out the tree was healthy, wouldn't you wish you had some say?



Hey, I might want to watch the neighbor sunbathe in her backyard too, but I have no say on when she gets to go inside.


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## Hoister

Thought there would be more answer's ..dont be worried about getting it wrong ..most knowlegde is obtained from mistakes ..

here's how you faired
VA Swayer .....


#1 = 94ftboom,at 65ft radius ..
Theres only one right answer here ..because often an operator will be asked .."what can you do with xxxxlbs?(3500 an example)" the answer is 65ft ..in your head you'll know to squirt out 94 feet ..its friutless to drive out 110 then retract to 94 feet..To your favor you'll know youll have to retract to 94 feet to make the lift..

#2Nope thats not a type-o.. Its exactly what i said 100ft..
Sometimes you'll find yourself under a ceiling ..be it a bridge,tree, heavy industrial setting like power generation plant,concrete plants ,,where theres an obstruction everywhere ..you'll find more often that your using intermediate boom lenghts..
So 100ft boom @60ft
Using the range diagram,I measure using the vertical scale 100 feet using the edge of a piece of paper ..make my tick..the using the corner as the pivot ..i boom down to 60ft on the range diagram ..I find my self @52deg main boom angle ..
In the 110 ft m-boom chart ..I go down to the nearest 52degree to 51degrees ..ajacent to that is a capacity of 2700lbs 
With 100ft of main boom @60 ft radius ..my gross capacity is 2700lbs


#3..Yup you nailed it ..

You over thought the second thinking it was a typo i think ..


They'll send this in next time ..


----------



## asetree

My buddy who is good with photoshop made this when I showed him this pic.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

John Paul Sanborn said:


> poor planting practices, driveways right next to very large trees. Though the last is a big money maker for me


hey Ill trade 20 years worth of cool shaded car for re pouring concrete.


----------



## treevet

>



At first glance that looks like it would tip if you hooked up a loaf of bread to it.


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## Hoister

Shes a Liebherr LTM1300.. a 300metric ton hyraulic configured with super lift and luffing jib

Its actually in rigging mode ..the crane is in the process of erection or dismantling ...


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> hey Ill trade 20 years worth of cool shaded car for re pouring concrete.



Who cares about concrete, I'm an arborist and care about tree mortality and risk. Construction activities in the CRZ increase that.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

I'm thinking the oak I planted 4 feet from the edge of my drive is Happy, in 7 years the little 1 inch culled live oak with low branching has nearly outsized the Live oak across the street which was a 6" 20 footer when it was planted.

when it comes time to replace the concrete I have pavers in mind that can be reset when needed. the tree has priority and getting into my car without burning something as well as the climate it created in the front yard is more valuable than any potential problem in 40 years.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

I'm thinking more along the lines of a 20 inch basswood that has paving in the CRZ, or asphalt up to the basal flair. Mature trees that will go into decline and become hazards in 10-15 years. 30 inch red oaks that are 4 feet from the foundation....


----------



## rbtree

welcome, hoister. I've missed the last few days here. Lots of good talk!

Here's video of the recovery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8HG7r96bBk

And, I joined this forum and made this post:
***********************************/Forum/showthread.php?t=15430&page=3

Certainly some knowledgable/experienced guys there, but I think the discussion here is better.


----------



## Hoister

rbtree said:


> welcome, hoister. I've missed the last few days here. Lots of good talk!
> 
> Here's video of the recovery:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8HG7r96bBk
> 
> And, I joined this forum and made this post:
> ***********************************/Forum/showthread.php?t=15430&page=3
> 
> Certainly some knowledgable/experienced guys there, *but I think the discussion here is better*.


Yup not a bad site ..lots of guys in there from various different fields ..some are crane guy's others have a very good idea but not much practical experience ....I see some of it ..but dont let that bother you.. some of these guys that post would blow me out of the water on earth moving equipment..there all operator's and we all share to a greater or lesser extent the responsibilities associated with running a piece of equipment
Some are passonate about their work other's cocky,,

LOL ..I think the discussion here is to tree related ..


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

Hoister said:


> Some are passonate about their work other's cocky,,


I think one naturally follows the other.


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> LOL ..I think the discussion here is to tree related ..



I think you prob are kidding......but do you do any tree work?


----------



## Sparky8370

I have seen cranes lifting a lot heavier stuff than that. Amazing what the shock load will do.


----------



## treevet

Sparky8370 said:


> I have seen cranes lifting a lot heavier stuff than that. Amazing what the shock load will do.



Tree guys live with shock loads every day when rigging if not craning. Crane ops prob not expecting it as much.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

Sparky8370 said:


> I have seen cranes lifting a lot heavier stuff than that. Amazing what the shock load will do.



Reminds me of the phrase I just taught my 3yrold Grandson when he dropped something from the table and started to cry, I said, boy, don't cry just say damn Gravity, He instantly lost the tears and obliged Im gonna love this Grandpa thing. 


till they call me to explain at the school


----------



## jomoco

If the idiot crane operator had put his counterweights on, the accident would not have happened. The climber was an idiot for not knowing that as much as the CO.

The main booms of a modern hydrocrane are heavy, that's why they have counterweights following them down the freeways on a separate semi!

jomoco


----------



## rbtree

Back away there, jomoco. They probably didn't order the crane as a 175.......it's cheaper, you know, when it's rated lower. 

Originally, many of us thought the crane was a 75. We were 100 tons off. We also thought the CW's were sitting on the flatbed...but were prolly wrong. 

Read the perspective of the crane op's who joined in...and maybe go to that heavy equipment forum.

Main problem was the way the cut was made, as a few tree guys here have surmised, myself included in a post at that forum, which I linked to here.

There was also good reason for the jib to be on, as is explained over there as well. Surprised me, but there's a hell of a lot I don't know about cranes.


----------



## jomoco

rbtree said:


> Back away there, jomoco. They probably didn't order the crane as a 175.......it's cheaper, you know, when it's rated lower.
> 
> Originally, many of us thought the crane was a 75. We were 100 tons off. We also thought the CW's were sitting on the flatbed...but were prolly wrong.
> 
> Read the perspective of the crane op's who joined in...and maybe go to that heavy equipment forum.
> 
> Main problem was the way the cut was made, as a few tree guys here have surmised, myself included in a post at that forum, which I linked to here.
> 
> There was also good reason for the jib to be on, as is explained over there as well. Surprised me, but there's a hell of a lot I don't know about cranes.



I've worked lots of very big trees down with a 120 ton hydrocrane RB, and it always had a full set of counterweights on it each time. The smallest hydrocrane I could get with a single operator was a 70 ton with no counterweights for light stuff.

It's the setup time and extra truck and rigger that limits you to 6 hours of productive crane time using the bigger cranes.

I am curious as to which of the two trunk cuts visible in the pics brought the crane down? The smaller uppermost cut with the funky lip on it? Or the bigger lower lateral facing the house?

It's very obvious from the pics of the crane that no counterweights were on it other than it's fixed travel counterweight plate.

Are you saying he could jib out that far on a 5 axle crane that big with no counterweights and not be an idiot RB?

jomoco


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

o I reposted these pictures in the other thread with a close up that show the last big piece that is sitting hear the boom


ROOTSXROCKS said:


> It appears from these last pictures of the cutting that he did not do a back cut on that big piece tha
> 
> this last pic before the crane fell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the last piece that made it over successfully
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the one that caused the tipping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was too big of a piece, and too much slack to allow it to fall away from the house without a back cut or hinge to slow the momentum.
> 
> Id blame the person that tied it on and cut it. Is the crane operator to view and approve every cut ?


----------



## jomoco

I aint buyin it RB, can you hook me up with a link to these CO's forum sayin it's cool to jib out a 175 ton hydrocrane with no counterweights please?

Now it's turned into more than just a funky cut, cuz there's somethin funky goin on with other CO's defending this guy's operation.

jomoco


----------



## outofmytree

It becomes clearer now doesnt it. Large piece with weight well past the centre of lift so that even if it lifted off clean it would pull the boom down and away from the crane. But without the proper cut its resistance becomes equivalent to far greater weight and the resultant force when it snaps is again away from the crane. The reports of the piece bouncing and then the crane going over fit in quite nicely. 

The climber made a giant mistake here in firstly using only 1 sling where 2 was the safer choice and secondly not ensuring the cut was certain to snap. The only other question I have is if the crane op can't see the piece being lifted is he still at fault? That is, over here, the crane op is the ultimate authority on site when lifting. Is it the same over there?

At least this was only monetary damage......


----------



## treevet

outofmytree said:


> It becomes clearer now doesnt it. Large piece with weight well past the centre of lift so that even if it lifted off clean it would pull the boom down and away from the crane. But without the proper cut its resistance becomes equivalent to far greater weight and the resultant force when it snaps is again away from the crane. The reports of the piece bouncing and then the crane going over fit in quite nicely.
> 
> The climber made a giant mistake here in firstly using only 1 sling where 2 was the safer choice and secondly not ensuring the cut was certain to snap. The only other question I have is if the crane op can't see the piece being lifted is he still at fault? That is, over here, the crane op is the ultimate authority on site when lifting. Is it the same over there?
> 
> At least this was only monetary damage......



I agree. There was a lot of holding wood to force off and everyone that does crane/tree work has seen a sudden detachment cause "bouncing" and then shockload to a little or great extent. Esp. on large stump cuts. That jib may have to have been installed to pick canopy beyond the trunk from the unit. IMO it was the holding wood that initiated this accident and the cut was made to, in his mind, cover his own ass if failure occurred. Many accidents happen in an end of the day let's finish up we're all tired scenario.

By this expanded pict. one see that it WAS that piece that brought the crane down as it still has chokers on it. It is also clear that the cut was made by the climber on the same side that the boom came down next to the tree. Musta been a scary situation to avert getting crushed as to where to go.

No need to be calling anyone idiots. But you can kind of expect it from the person doing the calling. This was a huge and highly technical removal done expertly up to that point that I sincerely doubt the person doing the condescending has ever attempted.

I am of the opinion that despite many arbs. talking all kind of big removals, likely only roughly maybe 5% of the people in the phone book or in an area of operation or posting on forums, etc.........

actually do the biggest nastiest removals on a regular basis.

It is up to the customer to find those people.....so a little of the blame lies on that end as well......"Let the buyer beware".


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

treevet said:


> It is up to the customer to find those people.....so a little of the blame lies on that end as well......"Let the buyer beware".



Only if they went with the lowest bid on the job


----------



## treevet

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Only if they went with the lowest bid on the job



Why? If they went with the highest bid and did not check references or shop then they still ended up in this spot.

In the best scenario both the op and the climber and the crew are highly experienced, sober and capable that day. They all have a long established history with these kind of td's together and they communicate with each other on walkie talkies.

Gotta go to work


----------



## outofmytree

I wonder if the climber was actually in the tree when the pick was made or if he had climbed out before giving the all clear to lift. I have reviewed the photo's and on the last one shown he was tied in twice which makes getting out of Dodge much harder when it all went wrong. It is my guess that he made the cut, perhaps with a wedge or even a twig in the cut as TV does, got out of the tree and signalled to the OP to lift all the while assuming the oak would snap. There is a reason why oaks have been used for structural wood for thousands of years....

One other thing I was curious about. I can only see 1 sling in the photo which means that even with a perfect cut there was going to be motion and therefore force away from the crane. On the few crane jobs I have done we rig most cuts with 2 slings so the pick, wherever possible, rises straight up from the cut rather than swinging one way or another.


----------



## jomoco

You guys are crackin me up here!

We have a crushed house, a 175 ton crane on it's ear, no counterweights, doing major trunk picks with a jib?

And no idiots involved you say?

jomoco


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

> I wonder if the climber was actually in the tree when the pick was made or if he had climbed out before giving the all clear to lift.



One interview stated that the boom passed by him just a foot or so away.

Soooo much guessing going on



> And no idiots involved you say?



Not me!


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> You guys are crackin me up here!
> 
> We have a crushed house, a 175 ton crane on it's ear, no counterweights, doing major trunk picks with a jib?
> 
> And no idiots involved you say?
> 
> jomoco




There are counter weights on that crane ..Approx 24000 lbs of it ..

It was rented out at a lesser capacity unit ..its done all the time ..

Ive also run units where out of 80,000+lbs of stone I had 40,000 on with both swing aways on ..perfectly legitamate..On some units 0 counter weight ..and a jib , half outriggers and jib chart, outrigger all in and down 

A handy little 60 ton I ran had a chart for
110 main
56' [email protected] offset
0 counter weight 
At 115 feet over the side I was still good for 1400lbs gross capacity ..


These cranes you keep talking about ..year ,make and model ?..just curoius


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> There are counter weights on that crane ..Approx 24000 lbs of it ..
> 
> It was rented out at a lesser capacity unit ..its done all the time ..
> 
> Ive also run units where out of 80,000+lbs of stone I had 40,000 on with both swing aways on ..perfectly legitamate..On some units 0 counter weight ..and a jib , half outriggers and jib chart, outrigger all in and down
> 
> A handy little 60 ton I ran had a chart for
> 110 main
> 56' [email protected] offset
> 0 counter weight
> At 115 feet over the side I was still good for 1400lbs gross capacity ..
> 
> 
> These cranes you keep talking about ..year ,make and model ?..just curoius



That's my point Hoister, that section of trunk probably weighed between 3-4K lbs, kinda greedy when you're jibbed out with no counterweights even with a 175.

A 175 can lift more further out than a 120 granted, but not without it's counterweights on and functioning.

You're saying it's cool to pick 2 tons jibbed out with no counterweights on that crane?

The evidence indicates otherwise my friend.

If ind it interesting that everytime I've removed large trees with a 120, 175 or 300 ton crane, they've invariably had their counterweighjts on.

I've never used a crane over 70 tons without counterweights period, and I don't recall any of the good CCO's I've ever worked with doing any such thing other than when they're putting their weights on. 

jomoco


----------



## JohnH

jomoco said:


> That's my point Hoister, that section of trunk probably weighed between 3-4K lbs, kinda greedy when you're jibbed out with no counterweights even with a 175.
> 
> A 175 can lift more further out than a 120 granted, but not without it's counterweights on and functioning.
> 
> You're saying it's cool to pick 2 tons jibbed out with no counterweights on that crane?
> 
> The evidence indicates otherwise my friend.
> 
> If ind it interesting that everytime I've removed large trees with a 120, 175 or 300 ton crane, they've invariably had their counterweighjts on.
> 
> I've never used a crane over 70 tons without counterweights period, and I don't recall any of the good CCO's I've ever worked with doing any such thing other than when they're putting their weights on.
> 
> jomoco



I have been reading this post for awhile and cant agree with you more. I run cranes and hang a lot for the company i work for. The first things I look for when one goes over is the outriggers,cribbing under them, boom angle, size of the piece, and counter weights and how many are on the machine. The lack of counter weights on that crane does not make sence to me at all. Using a crane in tree work is not like lifting steel of the ground, if its feels to heavy you can put it back down. In tree work once its cut you own it, weather its cut wrong or slung wrong. You as an operator have to deal with it. I know if I was jibed out and boomed down liked that you can bet you'r ars I'd have a lot more counter weight on.
John


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> That's my point Hoister, that section of trunk probably weighed between 3-4K lbs, kinda greedy when you're jibbed out with no counterweights even with a 175.
> 
> A 175 can lift more further out than a 120 granted, but not without it's counterweights on and functioning.
> 
> You're saying it's cool to pick 2 tons *jibbed out with no counterweights *on that crane?
> 
> The evidence indicates otherwise my friend.
> 
> If ind it interesting that every time I've removed large trees with a 120, 175 or 300 ton crane, they've invariably had their counterweights on.
> 
> I've never used a crane over 70 tons without counterweights period, and I don't recall any of the good CCO's I've ever worked with doing any such thing other than when they're putting their weights on.
> 
> jomoco



*There was counter weight on that machine 24,000lbs approx on it*

the operator's dont answer the phone or arrange the job..the office does
the operator's you speak of got their orders to to put it on ....and they can run with less ..
And if your working with owner operators ..Off course there going to put it all on ..It is the guy's meal ticket..

they have their reason's ..a big one being the insurance premium's ..
another reason ..pictures like the ones in this thread get circulated and 
Its not because they need the stone so much as If the guy(s) make's a mistake the operator and crane are well ..as pictured in the first post in this thread..

Also ..with a full load of stone using the rule off thumb 60%duty cycle
those operator's *maybe* doing the same thing I get told to do when tree jobs are bid ..plug a lesser amount of CW into the crane to get a greater envelop of safety factor, because that's how the sales rep measured the job .. .. meaning ..on my 250T unit I'm actually only running on a comparable 125-165T chart..but I have a full 250T unit under my butt.. 
running in a 60%duty cycle mode..which takes into account side and shock load 


there's nothing wrong with running a crane like that ( the 175)..in that configuration ...the operator doing anything wrong ..

It was however ..a configuration that needed an experienced hand on the lever's and an experienced crew on the ground.. and no mistakes by either party..
Things go wrong ..its a fact ..with a tree ..there's little chance of recovery ..
Something the Arborist and Reliable crane have learned ..in the most unfortunate manner


----------



## jomoco

Hddnis said:


> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091116/ARTICLES/911169936/1349?Tit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This happened near my wife's grandmother, a block or so over from what I understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. HE



Funny, I see a counterweight fixed travel plate on the crane in this pic, which also shows a separate trailer, that sure as heck looks like it has the cranes portable counterweights still strapped down on it.

Why aren't those CW's on the crane please?

jomoco


----------



## Hoister

JohnH said:


> I have been reading this post for awhile and cant agree with you more. I run cranes and hang a lot for the company i work for. The first things I look for when one goes over is the outriggers,cribbing under them, boom angle, size of the piece, and counter weights and how many are on the machine. The lack of counter weights on that crane does not make sence to me at all. Using a crane in tree work is not like lifting steel of the ground, if its feels to heavy you can put it back down. In tree work once its cut you own it, weather its cut wrong or slung wrong. You as an operator have to deal with it. I know if I was jibed out and boomed down liked that you can bet you'r ars I'd have a lot more counter weight on.
> John



Couldnt agree more ..its not coming of the ground... 

You and I both know the only way we're gonna get more counter weight is if the job got picked up on the way back form another ....when no one had a chance to look at it first ..you word and experience would be taken as the way it is ..

Unless something changed and the company sales rep agreed that it wasnt in the quote and more counter weight , a larger crane is sent ,or the company walk's away from the job ..

The operator could have done lots .. its easy to sit in a room going over what ,who ,where ,how ,,but fact of the matter is ..we werent in the seat working for that outfit doing that job for that client..


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> Funny, I see a counterweight fixed travel plate on the crane in this pic, which also shows a separate trailer, that sure as heck looks like it has the cranes portable counterweights still strapped down on it.
> 
> Why aren't those CW's on the crane please?
> 
> jomoco



Wooden mats ,job box,multiple sheave block ,single sheave block ..no stone ..sure looks like it ..but its not there .. 

If you can find that areial shot of the site before the clean up ..Its clearer ..there wasnt any other counter weight there ..

Thats not the fixed CW ..that one is 1.8/2.4 tonne ..the larger slab is a 10 tonne..removable..

But thats not the issue ..If she was rented out as a 175 ton .with that counter weight ..big problems ..
she was rented out as a 80-90 ton unit .... and preformed well ..untill the end ..


----------



## Hoister

treevet said:


> I think you prob are kidding......but do you do any tree work?


Other than fire wood ..And take some down ..no i dont ..

Yeah I was kidding..


----------



## Hddnis

Just some more info from family who talked to the homeowner and others first hand. I'd give it 'rumor' status, but since we're doing some guessing and just chewing the fat with this I'll share it in the general spirit of conversation.

The tree was removed because of limbs it had dropped in the past and concern for the safety of the house. Ironic now, but that is why they were taking the tree out.

The day before was the woman's birthday, then she was in an accident, then the crane fell through the house. Rather eventful week to live through. 

Per investigators onsite they were looking at "shock loading" as the cause. They were divided over it being the arborist or the CO at fault.

There was a neighbor talking to the CO when the crane started to tip and they just ran like mad. Someone across the street watching said the crane lifted up then started to go back down, the went all the way up.

The arborist was in the tree and the boom missed him by just a few feet. The story is he got out of the tree and quit on the spot, very shaken up, and says he'll never climb again. 

It also looks like they were taking bigger picks because they wanted to recover the lumber. Some of it had been loaded up already.

Sorry that I don't have any specifics on the model of crane or counter weights on it.



Mr. HE


----------



## Hoister

"There was a neighbor talking to the CO when the crane started to tip and they just ran like mad. Someone across the street watching said the crane lifted up then started to go back down, the went all the way up"

Its what I had figured in an earlier post ..two moment's of sudden loading with the second hauling her over ..Indicative of a shock load ..Also means the crane had enough chart to handle the intended load..the second is always worst...She quite possibly would have gone over on the first bounce if she was at the end of her chart.. she had reserve capacity..

The investigator's may be divided on who's fault ..not surprised .. its gonna be a situation for the courts and lawyer's..It may be a while before the last is heard of it ..

Thanks for the heads up..rumors as they may be ..still good ..


----------



## a_lopa

Banned member Masterblaster was the climber im told.


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> Wooden mats ,job box,multiple sheave block ,single sheave block ..no stone ..sure looks like it ..but its not there ..
> 
> If you can find that areial shot of the site before the clean up ..Its clearer ..there wasnt any other counter weight there ..
> 
> Thats not the fixed CW ..that one is 1.8/2.4 tonne ..the larger slab is a 10 tonne..removable..
> 
> But thats not the issue ..If she was rented out as a 175 ton .with that counter weight ..big problems ..
> she was rented out as a 80-90 ton unit .... and preformed well ..untill the end ..



And so did the 2 parties involved on a hugely difficult (I am certain the most difficult for either company involved that day) assignment.

Both of these employees were chosen to do this high risk, high profile job by their respective companies. Both "performed well" until the accident unless it was equipment failure of some type (unlikely).

These 2 are not "idiots", they are probably 2 of the higher quality individuals in their professions that either one, or both made a tragic mistake.

I would prefer to reserve the term idiot for those in our profession that spike all over a healthy tree, trick people into unnecessary removals, screw over senior citizens, never open a book to learn tree health practices or biology, drop limbs into a crew devoid of ppe, etc. etc.


----------



## treevet

Hddnis said:


> It also looks like they were taking bigger picks because they wanted to recover the lumber. Some of it had been loaded up already.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. HE



Interesting, a new factor enters.


----------



## Taxmantoo

a_lopa said:


> Banned member Masterblaster was the climber im told.



If you mouse over his rep, it says "Masterblaster will become famous soon enough"

Another banned member shows "DanMan1 must agree with everyone"

After that, it was a letdown to read "Gypo Logger must own a stihl"

Here's another odd one, for a member who isn't banned: "crash/banger is a jewel let's burry him!"


----------



## Hddnis

taxmantoo said:


> If you mouse over his rep...Here's another odd one, for a member who isn't banned: "crash/banger is a jewel let's burry him!"




It says the same thing when you mouse over Hoister.



Mr. HE


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

> "There was a neighbor talking to the CO when the crane started to tip and they just ran like mad. Someone across the street watching said the crane lifted up then started to go back down, the went all the way up"



If the crane OE had not been running his jibs????

So it shocked the boom, maybe fish-poled it.. If the had pretensioned the cable, do you think it would have helped, or more likely a causal factor?


----------



## Hddnis

It looked like the piece they cut was at about a 30 degree angle off of vertical. I'm totally guessing when I say maybe the drop was from the butt end where they made the cut. Even with tension, that could add up to a lot of drop and swing.



Mr. HE


----------



## treevet

:deadhorse:

we're going full circle now.

Time to send out a reporter from AS to do some interviews. I nominate.....

:kilt:


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

I can understand about the lumber after seeing the stuff at urbantrees.


----------



## Hoister

John Paul Sanborn said:


> If the crane OE had not been running his jibs????
> 
> So it shocked the boom, maybe fish-poled it.. If the had pretensioned the cable, do you think it would have helped, or more likely a causal factor?



Fishing pole ,banna boom..general terms to describe the modern hydralic ..

In the industry it known as " deflection "

And my own personal take is if the operator had pulled to the weight (if it was known correctly) this would have been avoided ..

Heres a quote from another thread ..regarding the same topic

*F=ma
tree mass for a number is 2000Kg's
Acceleration 9.8m/sec/square

F=192080 newtons of energy

which is 43181 lbs of energy ..if it free fell for one second ...*

I dont know how to check it ..but it does fall in line with a rule of thumb described by rbtree..

Heres some more chow for thought ..

http://www.maximcrane.com/loadcharts/4 All Terrain Cranes/Grove/GMK-5175_175T.pdf

Scroll down to page 9.. its the 24,000lb CW chart for a 175 ..this chart has holes in it ..but its the general idea how she works

In the column headed by 131 main boom leght ..check out the operating radius 
then in the colum headed by 161 main boom lenght check it against the 131 chart ..
the 131 chart is a better chart ..
Its also safe to say that the 131/33 jib would offer a better chart again over the 161 feet of main boom ..with that counter weight ..

All i can offer is reasonable doubt that the operator made the best selection for that boom and counter weight based on the manufactures load chart's


----------



## Hoister

treevet said:


> And so did the 2 parties involved on a hugely difficult (I am certain the most difficult for either company involved that day) assignment.
> 
> Both of these employees were chosen to do this high risk, high profile job by their respective companies. Both "performed well" until the accident unless it was equipment failure of some type (unlikely).
> 
> These 2 are not "idiots", they are probably 2 of the higher quality individuals in their professions that either one, or both made a tragic mistake.
> 
> I would prefer to reserve the term idiot for those in our profession that spike all over a healthy tree, trick people into unnecessary removals, screw over senior citizens, never open a book to learn tree health practices or biology, drop limbs into a crew devoid of ppe, etc. etc.



You seen "Saw for Hire " to did ya ?

I know Im an operator ,,its my choosen profession ..not a "tree guy"...ok Arborist..
I was gonna leave this thread be when i saw it intially ..and take a "leave it to there ignorance attitude"..
But 
I felt that if I could lend some knowledge..offer some expertise ..hopfully a few would get it and the arborist and operator could work together to make the work place a safer one ..and a more enjoyable experience in the work place ..after all its only a job ..and we all have a family

Theres been guys that have posted with an open mind,and hopfully learned something in the end ...all and all thanks for putting up with me .. 

To my own humbling ..I found out that arborist are not as ignorant as i first thought ..and want to understand ..if one would take this message board as the demographic.. 
theres enough knowledge here to make an inccident like the one that started this thread ..a very rare occurance in the future..


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

I had thought someone suggested that the crane was pulling to hard when the last bit broke causing the load to spring up enough to gain momentum coming back down. 

I don't understand were anyone sees a back cut,it appears to be a break to me.

If they were taking them for lumber heavy loads were expected, I have watched several videos of big pieces successfully being taken out and the line was always tight, would the climber cut with a slack line? 

I do want to understand what went wrong, hopefully more details will come out, surely there will be a public investigation and report. 


The fact they were trying to recover lumber makes me curious as to the motives again, a few limbs dropping from non maintenance does not justify removing the tree.


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> You seen "Saw for Hire " to did ya ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, been in the biz for 40 plus years now and see this stuff every day. Been doing crane assisted removals for 30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But
> I felt that if I could lend some knowledge..offer some expertise ..hopfully a few would get it and the arborist and operator could work together to make the work place a safer one ..and a more enjoyable experience in the work place ..after all its only a job ..and we all have a family
> 
> Theres been guys that have posted with an open mind,and hopfully learned something in the end ...all and all thanks for putting up with me ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Enjoyed your posts as I thoroughly enjoy talking "shop" with the 2 crane companies I use that are consummate pros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theres enough knowledge here to make an inccident like the one that started this thread ..a very rare occurance in the future..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## treevet

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> I had thought someone suggested that the crane was pulling to hard when the last bit broke causing the load to spring up enough to gain momentum coming back down.
> 
> I don't understand were anyone sees a back cut,it appears to be a break to me.



I am still buying into that theory. Esp. if the choke (single) was on the side of the holding wood which would have closed the cut, pinched the bar and likely almost had to uproot the tree before breaking. Maybe even it was off a little from the holding wood and that would hold a lot until it finally and suddenly busted causing a coiling upward of the boom, then a downward bending of the boom exacerbated by the temporarily free falling log until the boom stopped moving with the piece.


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> I was gonna leave this thread be when i saw it intially ..and take a "leave it to there ignorance attitude".


.



> But
> I felt that if I could lend some knowledge..offer some expertise ..hopfully a few would get it





> Theres been guys that have posted with an open mind,and hopfully learned something in the end ...all and all thanks for putting up with me ..





> To my own humbling ..I found out that arborist are not as ignorant as i first thought ..



Just thought I might add to my last post as an afterthought.....maybe you have learned a little on the tree side of the operation as well because I have done hundreds of craners and witnessed many as well and in every case it has ALWAYS been the ("ignorant") TREEMAN that ENGINEERED the removal not the CO.


----------



## oldirty

ok. you guys almost lost me on this thread with all that math stuff but coming back to it with some new pics and from my past experience.....

i'm staying with the idea it got cranked right off the stem.

either that or the climber got his saw so thoroughly pinched the crane op had to pull off some sort of magic trick to free the saw he ended up with his boom tip in no mans land and lost it.

jomoco you dead on with that being a horse#### cut. look at that little sliver left on the stem. you'd think if he was booming over that part it wouldve snapped under the pressure but its still there which leads me to think that was his first cut. then he came from the other side and as he was finishing (not to the boom which is amazing in of itself) the cut popped from too much cable or boom up.

anyway i'd love to read the report.

good thread boys.

btw snap cuts are over rated. i ride the ball 8 hrs a day 6 days a week and i can count on 1 hand the amount of snap cuts i make a week. might not be more than a couple fingers even.

hey treevet. i am one of those 5%ers bro. 

stay safe out there.


----------



## treevet

oldirty said:


> hey treevet. i am one of those 5%ers bro.
> 
> stay safe out there.



already knew that od


----------



## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> You seen "Saw for Hire " to did ya ?
> 
> I know Im an operator ,,its my choosen profession ..not a "tree guy"...ok Arborist..
> I was gonna leave this thread be when i saw it intially ..and take a "leave it to there ignorance attitude"..
> But
> I felt that if I could lend some knowledge..offer some expertise ..hopfully a few would get it and the arborist and operator could work together to make the work place a safer one ..and a more enjoyable experience in the work place ..after all its only a job ..and we all have a family
> 
> Theres been guys that have posted with an open mind,and hopfully learned something in the end ...all and all thanks for putting up with me ..
> 
> To my own humbling ..I found out that arborist are not as ignorant as i first thought ..and want to understand ..if one would take this message board as the demographic..
> theres enough knowledge here to make an inccident like the one that started this thread ..a very rare occurance in the future..



Ok I am no crane operator but here is what I still don't understand. Why was the spar not merely felled then cut to the desired log and hoisted out? It would have been easier,safer and if it was too heavy it could be set down no shock at all. There was plenty of room to fell that spar. Ok so some turf damage ,wow; now that's just horrendous


----------



## pdqdl

As always, Rope, you got that right. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that jib extending 40-50 feet out into the back yard with no obstructions.

I suspect that in the final analysis, they rigged the heavy log to pull away from the house with a small jump, not realizing that they were already close to the limits of their crane. When the load swung away from the house, the boom deflected, the load and momentum was too great, and down it went.

It doesn't look to me like they needed a crane at all, except to maybe sweat less or never touch the lawn.


----------



## treeslayer

ropensaddle said:


> Ok I am no crane operator but here is what I still don't understand. Why was the spar not merely felled then cut to the desired log and hoisted out? It would have been easier,safer and if it was too heavy it could be set down no shock at all. There was plenty of room to fell that spar. Ok so some turf damage ,wow; now that's just horrendous



You can't hurt dirt.


----------



## Hddnis

Dirt gets no respect.



Mr. HE


----------



## Hoister

ropensaddle said:


> Ok I am no crane operator but here is what I still don't understand. Why was the spar not merely felled then cut to the desired log and hoisted out? It would have been easier,safer and if it was too heavy it could be set down no shock at all. There was plenty of room to fell that spar. Ok so some turf damage ,wow; now that's just horrendous



Im no arborist but I also dont understand :Why was the spar not merely felled then cut to the desired log and hoisted out? It would have been easier,safer and if it was too heavy it could be set down no shock at all. There was plenty of room to fell that spar. Ok so some turf damage ,wow; now that's just horrendous

Not to be smart but ..it's the arborist's work ..I can suggest that ..but its his dime.


----------



## Hoister

treevet said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought I might add to my last post as an afterthought.....maybe you have learned a little on the tree side of the operation as well because I have done hundreds of craners and witnessed many as well and in every case it has ALWAYS been the ("ignorant") TREEMAN that ENGINEERED the removal not the CO.



Yup can say i did ..really like the loggsplitter's in here ..have to build my own soon ..

As long as you guys dont try and pull this with me ....Im fine 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ing-bush-gardener-brought-CRANE-mow-lawn.html


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> Yup can say i did ..really like the loggsplitter's in here ..have to build my own soon ..



Well if that's all you've learned then maybe you can learn to build the best one.


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> Im no arborist but I also dont understand :Why was the spar not merely felled then cut to the desired log and hoisted out? It would have been easier,safer and if it was too heavy it could be set down no shock at all. There was plenty of room to fell that spar. Ok so some turf damage ,wow; now that's just horrendous
> 
> Not to be smart but ..it's the arborist's work ..I can suggest that ..but its his dime.



You saying you don't see any blame on the crane op's side?

It was my opinion that the treeman engineers the job. Not to say the c o does not have veto power on the picks. Not what is picked but rather how much is picked. The c o is also gonna ultimately decide where to set up but the treeman is gonna try to control this as well.


----------



## Hoister

treevet said:


> You saying you don't see any blame on the crane op's side?
> 
> It was my opinion that the treeman engineers the job. Not to say the c o does not have veto power on the picks. Not what is picked but rather how much is picked. The c o is also gonna ultimately decide where to set up but the treeman is gonna try to control this as well.



Don't worry this operator isnt going home with nothing ..as it sits now OSHA inspector's have a mandate to find all infraction's and charge accordingly
I saw ine right of the hop ..the operator is responsible for securing the area around the crane with caution tape ....Its the generals responsibility to tape the area and post the applicable warning signs..for sure I know two fines are coming..to the operator here ..his crane and the site he's in in general ..In other words ..the fall radius of the crane ..360 from the pin should have been taped of ..But we're nice guys ... and things like the caution tape we let go ..but its ours to pay when the pen meets the paper ..
As far as the incident itself ..well ,...for sure something will be drawn up ..I dont want to speculate on that ..He's gonna need a good lawyer depending on whats decided in the end ..

MHO ..75% of that incident belongs to Reliable crane : they did not exercise diligence in arranging the job... and were to worried about its competitor's picking up the work ..They should have sent a 175 ..or walked away ..let the next guy make the evening news ..

..the other 25% to the operator and the tree man ..

Its possible they didn't get a street permit to sit the crane up in that cul-de-sac..pay duty officer's and signage at the entrance ..that wont be OSHA that will be the local cop's..
There's a possibility of dozens of fine here ....
then the bills ..the ambulance ,fire department,cops ,can all submit a bill to one or all the contractor's for coming out..


Your right ..the op does have veto power ..but the estimation of the weights to an extent ..I'm at the tree man's mercy.
To be honest Id feel better if the climber had a tape to measure the diameter ..then translate that into something i can relate to my load charts ..

you know 
Pine 42lb/cuft
birch 44lb/cuft
oak 59lb/cuft

and so on ..

Its only a cylinder for the most part a tree ..Pi x Dia x lenght adjust for taper .. time's the unit weight ..but you knew that ..imsure you did ..


----------



## Hoister

treevet said:


> Well if that's all you've learned then maybe you can learn to build the best one.



Boo Ya !! ...

She spilts both way's ..?


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> Boo Ya !! ...
> 
> She spilts both way's ..?



splits on both sides, self propelled, has a loglift, can buy a conveyor extension, has a 4 way split. splits fall into the well and bye bye. Wish I bought one instead of my Timberwolf stuff. Made this little pile of firewood and then some.


----------



## Hoister

How much a for bush Chord ??? LOL...Geez ..wish i had that in the back yard ...


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> Its only a cylinder for the most part a tree ..Pi x Dia x lenght adjust for taper .. time's the unit weight ..but you knew that ..imsure you did ..



green log weight chart....don't leave home without it.......ANSI Z133.1/5.7.7


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> How much a for bush Chord ??? LOL...Geez ..wish i had that in the back yard ...



This may be up for sale soon. City shut the poor guy down.


----------



## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> Im no arborist but I also dont understand :Why was the spar not merely felled then cut to the desired log and hoisted out? It would have been easier,safer and if it was too heavy it could be set down no shock at all. There was plenty of room to fell that spar. Ok so some turf damage ,wow; now that's just horrendous
> 
> Not to be smart but ..it's the arborist's work ..I can suggest that ..but its his dime.



I agree, I meant no animosity toward the op at all, it was the tree man that screwed the pooch here imo. I for one would not even have used a crane on that job. If I use a crane it will be absolutely necessary. I tried to use one on this job but the local crane service is scared of trees. I figure he had an incident similar to this one. I have spoke with him since and explained that I would cut very small pieces and may get to him to help on the next similar job. I ended up doing this job without a crane and it is way worse than that oak.


----------



## Hoister

treevet said:


> green log weight chart....don't leave home without it.......ANSI Z133.1/5.7.7



Have you ever compared the chart to an actual log ..as per the graph ..

Is there a difference given the type of season ?

wet spring/summer
mild wet winter/with a wet spring


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> Have you ever compared the chart to an actual log ..as per the graph ..
> 
> Is there a difference given the type of season ?
> 
> wet spring/summer
> mild wet winter/with a wet spring



Try going to this logweight calculator,

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=log_weight

Select Live Oak,

Punch in 32 inches for the small end,

Punch in 36 inches for the big end,

Select a 20 foot length,

And click calculate.

The answer is 11,073 lbs!

jomoco


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> Try going to this logweight calculator,
> 
> http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=log_weight
> 
> Select Live Oak,
> 
> Punch in 32 inches for the small end,
> 
> Punch in 36 inches for the big end,
> 
> Select a 20 foot length,
> 
> And click calculate.
> 
> The answer is 11,073 lbs!
> 
> jomoco



Thats pretty slick ..now all we need is a Black Berry or I-phone application ..


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> Thats pretty slick ..now all we need is a Black Berry or I-phone application ..



Careful Hoisty bro!

Yu might learn somethin an start usin a full compliment of CW's, and usin your mainboom for fat trunk wood as a rule too!

Aint we modern?

jomoco:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> Careful Hoisty bro!
> 
> *Yu might learn somethin an start usin a full compliment of CW's, and usin your mainboom for fat trunk wood as a rule too*!
> 
> Aint we modern?
> 
> jomoco:greenchainsaw:



You dont tell me what boom and CW to use to make a lift ..I dont tell you how to cut a tree ..

Fair?


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> You dont tell me what boom and CW to use to make a lift ..I dont tell you how to cut a tree ..
> 
> Fair?



With my life on the line up there?

Not a chance!

I'm a choosy mother. and I choose Jiff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQOUEdSp3Pk

jomoco


----------



## Hoister

LOL... Looks like the operator was just try'n to brush you off ...

food for thought ..Pay attention to this one ..it bites..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8m3-ITXKjg


----------



## rbtree

jomoco said:


> Careful Hoisty bro!
> 
> Yu might learn somethin an start usin a full compliment of CW's, and usin your mainboom for fat trunk wood as a rule too!
> 
> Aint we modern?
> 
> jomoco:greenchainsaw:



Quit being a smart ass, jomoco!!

For one, hoister already explained that some cranes have a better chart with the jib on......Also, for that tree, they needed the jib to reach the back picks....

Third, the agreement between the crane and tree co was no doubt to pay for the crane w/o it's full complement of c/w's. 

I've already explained what the main problem was, which was the way the climber made the cut.


----------



## rbtree

jomoco said:


> Try going to this logweight calculator,
> 
> http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=log_weight
> 
> Select Live Oak,
> 
> Punch in 32 inches for the small end,
> 
> Punch in 36 inches for the big end,
> 
> Select a 20 foot length,
> 
> And click calculate.
> 
> The answer is 11,073 lbs!
> 
> jomoco



FWIW, that tree was a valley oak, which is lighter.

And, of course, the log was much much smaller than that.

More like 4000-5500 lb


----------



## rbtree

Hoister said:


> Have you ever compared the chart to an actual log ..as per the graph ..
> 
> Is there a difference given the type of season ?
> 
> wet spring/summer
> mild wet winter/with a wet spring




Yes, do it all the time. I like to be able to estimate the log weight within 10-15%, then tell the crane op how much tension to apply. If correct, the pick gently floats up and away. No shock loading, no worries.

There is quite a variation, throughout the seasons, in wood weight.

As well, with conifers, which is where I have the most experience, the lower 40 feet of the tree can be 20% above the log charts.

Further, redwood or sequoia, especially young, fast growing trees, can vary by huge amounts, from winter to spring and early summer. The charts show redwood at about 48 lb per cubic foot, if I recall correctly. I've weighed a cubic foot of it at 76 lb! same as live oak on the chart, the heaviest wood in the US of EH!! 

Gerry Beranek, the guru of big trees, who lives in redwood country, says that there's a huge seasonal variation in the load sizes that can be hauled to the mill. Not so with our Douglas-fir. Yes the weights will be a bit less in winter, but the wood is seldom so heavy that the truck can't be loaded quite high on the bunks.


----------



## treevet

ropensaddle said:


> I agree, I meant no animosity toward the op at all, it was the tree man that screwed the pooch here imo. I for one would not even have used a crane on that job. If I use a crane it will be absolutely necessary. I tried to use one on this job but the local crane service is scared of trees. I figure he had an incident similar to this one. I have spoke with him since and explained that I would cut very small pieces and may get to him to help on the next similar job. I ended up doing this job without a crane and it is way worse than that oak.



I don't know Rope....what you're showin here doesn't look that scary. These posts that "I would have just climbed and rigged it without a crane" are all just conjecture. This was a pure crane removal. The opportunity to set up one and the liability and the need to move the material from the rear to the front.

I think you need to find a co with some balls. My favorite 4 ops all have ice water in their veins. One of them won't do any tree work for anyone but me. You don't want a scaredy cat pulling the controls in the seat. Might bounce the headache ball of your noggin.....This....is a crane removal....





Not a climb and rig if it doesn't have to be.


----------



## rbtree

jomoco said:


> With my life on the line up there?
> 
> Not a chance!
> 
> I'm a choosy mother. and I choose Jiff!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQOUEdSp3Pk
> 
> jomoco



don't care about your noggin enough to protect it a tad?


----------



## Hoister

I kinda thought that in the back of my head RB ....

The chart is a round about ....so given the season and predominant weather ..it would be a little wiser to take smaller bites ..to try and get a better idea of how the tree is weighing out the further you go down the trunk ..


----------



## ropensaddle

treevet said:


> I don't know Rope....what you're showin here doesn't look that scary. These posts that "I would have just climbed and rigged it without a crane" are all just conjecture. This was a pure crane removal. The opportunity to set up one and the liability and the need to move the material from the rear to the front.
> 
> I think you need to find a co with some balls. My favorite 4 ops all have ice water in their veins. One of them won't do any tree work for anyone but me. You don't want a scaredy cat pulling the controls in the seat. Might bounce the headache ball of your noggin.....This....is a crane removal....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a climb and rig if it doesn't have to be.



Ok now view it from this angle and note the 3phaze power lines


----------



## rbtree

treevet said:


> Not a climb and rig if it doesn't have to be.



Exactly, not that tree, vet! Woulda been a nightmare dragging all that crooked brush around those narrow side yards.


----------



## Hoister

Thats your big kicker right there ..... looks less than 15/20 feet away

Cant speak for your locale ..but I need them covered ,and a hold-off put on the line ..then maintain .my limits of approach ..

Thats an expensive one ..


----------



## jomoco

rbtree said:


> FWIW, that tree was a valley oak, which is lighter.
> 
> And, of course, the log was much much smaller than that.
> 
> More like 4000-5500 lb



How many lower trunk picks on big oaks do you use a jib to pick RB?

Like maybe zero, nunca, nada as in never?

You've got to take the bloody jib off to travel anyway!

Why not take it off once the tree's brushed down to big wood?

Did they intend to pick the rest of the lower trunk with the jib on too?

Why defend these dopes any longer?

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

rbtree said:


> Exactly, not that tree, vet! Woulda been a nightmare dragging all that crooked brush around those narrow side yards.



Looked like my Mack grapple truck would have got in if it was dry.


----------



## rbtree

That was an impressive tree, rope. I well remember your story!!

Here's a video ya'll will like! Took nearly 5 days for Georgio and his crew to do this 10 foot sequoia. No crane access. What a waste of great wood. But they knew nothing of milling, or had anyone interested in it....They obviously knew how to get the behemoth down!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d63jGiUMli8


----------



## treevet

ropensaddle said:


> Ok now view it from this angle and note the 3phaze power lines



Well that certainly adds to the danger factor but they can be matted. I just don't think you can compare a huge decurrent to a telephone excurrent such as this white pine or even a redwood in the complexity of the removal.


----------



## rbtree

ropensaddle said:


> Looked like my Mack grapple truck would have got in if it was dry.



Not a chance! I've seen the overhead shot, that's on google maps..... narrow side yards, 36 in gate, no doubt.


----------



## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> Thats your big kicker right there ..... looks less than 15/20 feet away
> 
> Cant speak for your locale ..but I need them covered ,and a hold-off put on the line ..then maintain .my limits of approach ..
> 
> Thats an expensive one ..



If you are talking about the power it was right at 10 foot from trunk with limbs overhanging it!
It was 2 k and I was second highest bid. Tree was worth way more. It is like this now lol no crane.


----------



## treevet

rbtree said:


> That was an impressive tree, rope. I well remember your story!!
> 
> Here's a video ya'll will like! Took nearly 5 days for Georgio and his crew to do this 10 foot sequoia. No crane access. What a waste of great wood. But they knew nothing of milling, or had anyone interested in it....They obviously knew how to get the behemoth down!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emmDDPCMx7M



Think you fired up the wrong vid Rog.


----------



## jomoco

rbtree said:


> don't care about your noggin enough to protect it a tad?



I had a choice between my hardhat and radio comm with the CO that day,
I chose comm with the CO, it was a tad bit windy.

These days I have the peltor pro comm plus hardhats that allow me to talk with each man on the ground wearing the same.


jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

rbtree said:


> That was an impressive tree, rope. I well remember your story!!
> 
> Here's a video ya'll will like! Took nearly 5 days for Georgio and his crew to do this 10 foot sequoia. No crane access. What a waste of great wood. But they knew nothing of milling, or had anyone interested in it....They obviously knew how to get the behemoth down!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emmDDPCMx7M



Many of your td's have impressed me you do fine work friend. That line was not matted I have done way worse just no camera then. The worst I can remember was refused by our competitor it was a 150 sweet gum in the corner of 3 phaze and leaning over it on a major highway. It had only ten inch good wood left at base and the base was 65" dbh the top was very healthy. My boss asked me if I could do it and I said yeah if time was no factor. I had that thing guyed from every direction it would not budge before climbing it. I would not climb it today I would use a crane.


----------



## rbtree

treevet said:


> Think you fired up the wrong vid Rog.



Oops, thanks for the catch..had forgotten about that open tab...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d63jGiUMli8

Corrected the original post as well


----------



## treeclimber101

What about the fact that the crane is missing three quarters of its counterweight and picking over the rear where it loses 1/3 of its cap. its typical to lose a crane backwards theres no rear stabilizer and in my estimation its the operators fault for beeing over boomed where's the oiler what was he doing or the signal man ??


----------



## ropensaddle

rbtree said:


> Not a chance! I've seen the overhead shot, that's on google maps..... narrow side yards, 36 in gate, no doubt.



Roger I have taken down several fences to allow access all I need is 10 foot and I am in. Of course it may not have that.


----------



## treevet

ropensaddle said:


> I had that thing guyed from every direction it would not budge before climbing it. I would not climb it today I would use a crane.



Man I can relate to that quote Rope.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

ropensaddle said:


> Ok now view it from this angle and note the 3phaze power lines



Three phase sounds a bit scary, for topping.

now let me guess how to block this thing down


don't know what its called , but on your lower horizontal notch cut a bevel toward the direction you want to accelerate the piece. 
wen it falls over the top of the notch catches the beveled lip and the Block shoots out about 10-15 feet from the bole.


----------



## rbtree

jomoco said:


> How many lower trunk picks on big oaks do you use a jib to pick RB?
> 
> Like maybe zero, nunca, nada as in never?
> 
> You've got to take the bloody jib off to travel anyway!
> 
> Why not take it off once the tree's brushed down to big wood?
> 
> Did they intend to pick the rest of the lower trunk with the jib on too?
> 
> Why defend these dopes any longer?
> 
> jomoco



First off, I may have been doing tree work for about as long as you, but have little experience with big cranes. I've never used a jib, and have always thought I didn't want to.

But I defer to Hoister's knowledge. I believe he's made some posts that explain why some cranes can handle more with the jib on, and the main boom not fully extended. You do know that the lattice frame work is lighter.

On that same vein, there was a crane operator here would used his (180 foot) lattice boom crane for backyard conifer removals, brush and all, often in one piece. A lattice boom's chart is totally different than a hydraulic, as it is so much lighter.


----------



## rbtree

ropensaddle said:


> Roger I have taken down several fences to allow access all I need is 10 foot and I am in. Of course it may not have that.



ZERO chance on that property..Not even close.


----------



## treeclimber101

Trunk work is not jib work at that point you should be somewhat scoped closed up and within reach of boom only , that just goes to show they were too far to begin with , I am sure that wasn't the first OH SNAP pic of the day but that's the gamble when ordering a crane ...


----------



## ropensaddle

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Three phase sounds a bit scary, for topping.
> 
> now let me guess how to block this thing down
> 
> 
> don't know what its called , but on your lower horizontal notch cut a bevel toward the direction you want to accelerate the piece.
> wen it falls over the top of the notch catches the beveled lip and the Block shoots out about 10-15 feet from the bole.



Lol should of rigged a speed line but done it the sure way


----------



## rbtree

jomoco said:


> I had a choice between my hardhat and radio comm with the CO that day,
> I chose comm with the CO, it was a tad bit windy.
> 
> These days I have the peltor pro comm plus hardhats that allow me to talk with each man on the ground wearing the same.
> 
> 
> jomoco




sorry for bringing that up. I'm no PPE Nazi.......


----------



## treeclimber101

rbtree said:


> First off, I may have been doing tree work for about as long as you, but have little experience with big cranes. I've never used a jib, and have always thought I didn't want to.
> 
> But I defer to Hoister's knowledge. I believe he's made some posts that explain why some cranes can handle more with the jib on, and the main boom not fully extended. You do know that the lattice frame work is lighter.
> 
> On that same vein, there was a crane operator here would used his (180 foot) lattice boom crane for backyard conifer removals, brush and all, often in one piece. A lattice boom's chart is totally different than a hydraulic, as it is so much lighter.


Yea a luffing crane can handle more weight with a luffin boom but this is not that type of crane at all ...


----------



## ropensaddle

rbtree said:


> ZERO chance on that property..Not even close.



What about skid steer?


----------



## rbtree

treeclimber101 said:


> Trunk work is not jib work at that point you should be somewhat scoped closed up and within reach of boom only , that just goes to show they were too far to begin with , I am sure that wasn't the first OH SNAP pic of the day but that's the gamble when ordering a crane ...




I dunno. They were 90-100 feet away. And the jib, which looks super strong, looks longer than the boom sections. So, had they had the jib off, the boom angle would likely have been even worse....Ouch.

If you look at the last cut before the failed one, you can see a mismatch cut, and on the wrong side. (Too much lean on that piece for a mismatch cut as well) The pick that failed should have been made with one cut from the back (lean) side, while the operator slowly and gently brought the pick to vertical, which would have been a few feet closer to the centerpin as well. Then, the climber could cut off the remaining sliver. Done right, zero dynamic loading. Also, both cutter and operator should have known the wood weight within 10%. Maybe they did, but the improper cut caused the butt to simply fall off. Game over!


----------



## rbtree

ropensaddle said:


> What about skid steer?




Nope.. The pool is close to the house as well, woulda meant a sharp 90 degree turn to carry the brush out......again, narrow gates. The house would have been all scratched up.


----------



## treeclimber101

rbtree said:


> I dunno. They were 90-100 feet away. And the jib, which looks super strong, looks longer than the boom sections. So, had they had the jib off, the boom angle would likely have been even worse....Ouch.
> 
> If you look at the last cut before the failed one, you can see a mismatch cut, and on the wrong side. (Too much lean on that piece for a mismatch cut as well) The pick that failed should have been made with one cut from the back (lean) side, while the operator slowly and gently brought the pick to vertical, which would have been a few feet closer to the centerpin as well. Then, the climber could cut off the remaining sliver. Done right, zero dynamic loading. Also, both cutter and operator should have known the wood weight within 10%. Maybe they did, but the improper cut caused the butt to simply fall off. Game over!



Its the wrong rig for the job if there working that far out than pic little and often when you add the jib if you make one little mistake chart mistake that boom is a limp slong just waiting to pull it self over , a grove 350 with all it's counterweight would have a problem lifting 1200lbs flat out and with a 500 lb pill well than that happens..


----------



## jomoco

rbtree said:


> First off, I may have been doing tree work for about as long as you, but have little experience with big cranes. I've never used a jib, and have always thought I didn't want to.
> 
> But I defer to Hoister's knowledge. I believe he's made some posts that explain why some cranes can handle more with the jib on, and the main boom not fully extended. You do know that the lattice frame work is lighter.
> 
> On that same vein, there was a crane operator here would used his (180 foot) lattice boom crane for backyard conifer removals, brush and all, often in one piece. A lattice boom's chart is totally different than a hydraulic, as it is so much lighter.




I know you're a pro RB.

It's just that from my perspective everything about this incident is highly questionable. From the cut itself, to the jib being used on lower trunk wood, to the bulk of the CW's being missing on a 175 ton crane.

It seems to me sheer expedience and failure to follow proper procedures in their sequence could have gotten someone killed here, particularly the climber.

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

rbtree said:


> Nope.. The pool is close to the house as well, woulda meant a sharp 90 degree turn to carry the brush out......again, narrow gates. The house would have been all scratched up.



It sure is scratched up I will give ya that lol


----------



## ropensaddle

Ok so you guys sold me the crane was a great asset for the job I have done several like it without a crane but was long hard work ended up splitting the wood and hand carrying. It however was not disastrous. I suppose if they were paying for the crane, here forget it not going to sell it, I would use the service but screw the lumber I am going to make dern sure the crane is not coming my way.


----------



## treeclimber101

Let's not forget that lifting over ANY type of dwelling is frowned upon in all other types of crane work except tree removal operations so don't be surprised when OSHA changes the ANSI standard and says that you need a clear path or no pic...


----------



## treeclimber101

ropensaddle said:


> Ok so you guys sold me the crane was a great asset for the job I have done several like it without a crane but was long hard work ended up splitting the wood and hand carrying. It however was not disastrous. I suppose if they were paying for the crane, here forget it not going to sell it, I would use the service but screw the lumber I am going to make dern sure the crane is not coming my way.


I like to keep the money moving through me and my guys so crane work is only a option to me when there are no other options , for the $2,000 beans I'lll stay for another half a day moving some wood and fixing some ruts..


----------



## ropensaddle

treeclimber101 said:


> Let's not forget that lifting over ANY type of dwelling is frowned upon in all other types of crane work except tree removal operations so don't be surprised when OSHA changes the ANSI standard and says that you need a clear path or no pic...



Lol lets doze the house cut the tree then build a new house, ya needed one anyway


----------



## jomoco

rbtree said:


> I dunno. They were 90-100 feet away. And the jib, which looks super strong, looks longer than the boom sections. So, had they had the jib off, the boom angle would likely have been even worse....Ouch.
> 
> If you look at the last cut before the failed one, you can see a mismatch cut, and on the wrong side. (Too much lean on that piece for a mismatch cut as well) The pick that failed should have been made with one cut from the back (lean) side, while the operator slowly and gently brought the pick to vertical, which would have been a few feet closer to the centerpin as well. Then, the climber could cut off the remaining sliver. Done right, zero dynamic loading. Also, both cutter and operator should have known the wood weight within 10%. Maybe they did, but the improper cut caused the butt to simply fall off. Game over!



If that crane was a 175, he had well over 140 feet of main boom.

jomoco


----------



## treeclimber101

ropensaddle said:


> Lol lets doze the house cut the tree then build a new house, ya needed one anyway



Hey it only takes one accident to kill a homeowner or god forbid a child for the whole thing to come to a screaching hault, when I worked on Childrens hospital the crane had to rotate about 320 degrees instead of about 40 degrees because there were three occupied floors under the short route and that added minutes not seconds to every pic..


----------



## Hoister

Treeclimber ..Rb is referring to a conventional crane ..
A luffing crane is often referred to the tower cranes with a conventional boom in it ..that "luff's " up and down as any other crane would boom up or down ..

a luffing jib is a lattice boom structure that rigged to the end of either a hydraulic or a conventional ..

The conventional crane is by any standard .the bench presser of the industry ..its sports a mean chart ..In comparison ..a 300T conventional crane ..is nearly equaled by a 450T hydraulic ..


----------



## ropensaddle

treeclimber101 said:


> Hey it only takes one accident to kill a homeowner or god forbid a child for the whole thing to come to a screaching hault, when I worked on Childrens hospital the crane had to rotate about 320 degrees instead of about 40 degrees because there were three occupied floors under the short route and that added minutes not seconds to every pic..



Tell you what you may think this is silly but I have asked homeowners to vacate for cuts before just because if something went wrong they would be safe. I always get a weird reaction and I assure them it is going to be ok just want to be extra safe here.


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> If that crane was a 175, he had well over 140 feet of main boom.
> 
> jomoco




If you looked at the chart you would see she has 161 of main boom ..and its not worth a boot in the but when reaching ..
Its already been said she was configured with 131main with 33 jib .. that's 164feet..and the best config for reaching .


----------



## Hoister

ropensaddle said:


> Tell you what you may think this is silly but I have asked homeowners to vacate for cuts before just because if something went wrong they would be safe. I always get a weird reaction and I assure them it is going to be ok just want to be extra safe here.



Its actually the law ..as far as the operator is concerned ..he cant make a move until all souls are clear ..only the people involved with the lift can be there ..and they better have a purpose ..like tag lines or running the saw ..


----------



## treeclimber101

Hoister said:


> Treeclimber ..Rb is referring to a conventional crane ..
> A luffing crane is often referred to the tower cranes with a conventional boom in it ..that "luff's " up and down as any other crane would boom up or down ..
> 
> a luffing jib is a lattice boom structure that rigged to the end of either a hydraulic or a conventional ..
> 
> The conventional crane is by any standard .the bench presser of the industry ..its sports a mean chart ..In comparison ..a 300T conventional crane ..is nearly equaled by a 450T hydraulic ..


Yes sir you are correct I was a Ironworker for a nice stint and worked with all types ..


----------



## rbtree

Hoister said:


> If you looked at the chart you would see she has 161 of main boom ..and its not worth a boot in the but when reaching ..
> Its already been said she was configured with 131main with 33 jib .. that's 164feet..and the best config for reaching .



Thanks for clarifying that. Don't mind Jomoco, while he is very experienced and knowledgable, he's not known for understating things, or running away from an argument.....

I'm considering passing on bidding on a massive black cottonwood, as I think it would be hard to do it in a day. Involves parking a 100 ton crane in the street, with only room for cars, not buses to pass, without sucking in the outriggers (That's a pain.) If done Dec 27-28 (no school buses), We could do it without double or 1.5 time for crane and flaggers. But I'd still bid close to $15,000!! 

Another co thinks they can do it in a day. Assume 10 hours of crane time with 1 hr travel each way. Can a crane that carries it's own c/w's set up on a nearly level road in 30 minutes? Seems a bit fast. That would still be 3 hours out of 10 with no work being done. The tree is at least 65" dbh, 150 feet tall. Not a lot of room to lay down brush or wood. At least 20 picks.....Radius at least 70 feet. With full counterweights, the chart looks adequate. But I'd like to be able to pick 20 foot trunk wood, in order to sell those 3 logs to offset trucking costs.... They'd weigh 7000-10000 lb each.


----------



## treevet

rbtree said:


> well) The pick that failed should have been made with one cut from the back (lean) side, while the operator slowly and gently brought the pick to vertical, which would have been a few feet closer to the centerpin as well. Then, the climber could cut off the remaining sliver. Done right, zero dynamic loading. Also, both cutter and operator should have known the wood weight within 10%. Maybe they did, but the improper cut caused the butt to simply fall off. Game over!



I respectfully completely disagree with this. In order to make the pick with your scenario you have to TIP the piece and you have unpredictable holding wood and you have the blade buried waaaay into the piece likely getting stuck from side pressure. This could even be how the accident occurred sort of. (see the cut Jomoco made in his zoo vid where he had to keep going back in and the damn thing kept never coming off)

As I have said before...

I would double choke the piece with one choke on the boom side and one choke on the finishing cut side.

I would over tension the finishing cut side by having the sheave moved with a communication with the op on an intercom (checked by feeling tension in the non choked part of the cables of the chokers).

I would cut half way through on the crane side and then go into the opposite side with my finishing cut, first taking time by scoring the trunk on both sides as a guide so a perfectly MATCHING finishing cut can be attained. 

After getting most of the way into the finishing cut and getting fairly near to the initial face cut.....I am gonna pull the saw out and put 3 wedges, (I usually use 3 dead twigs that just fit) .....one in the middle, one on either side of the middle in a little.

Then I am gonna run the cut right into the initial cut and with a little tension, just prior to the two cuts meeting, presto, straight up goes the piece....

....no tilt, little or no holding wood, no kerf, no saw pinch, no grabbing the saw outta your hands, no swing, no negs at all. If so desired the cutter could even exit the scene when the two cuts are almost touching (go to the ground as in this pick or....if in an aerial...just move away and wave bye bye. 

This IS the RIGHT cut to be made.


----------



## jomoco

Golly TV, for a vet you sure misinterpreted what was happening during my combo brush and trunkwood pick at the SD Zoo!

Awkward dogleg picks either have to be rigged with multiple chokers to act right, or they can be taken with a single choker and allowed to orient themselves onto the choker as it hinges over, as was the case in the pick you refer to. That pick was not being stubborn at all, it did exactly what I wanted it to, and once it was oriented to the choker, I severed the hinge completely, dropped down, and signalled spool up for a smooth clean pick of an extremely awkward large dogleg pick.

Had it been a vertical trunk pick, the cutting technique would have been different, but still utilised only a single steel choker.

jomoco


----------



## treevet

jomoco said:


> Golly TV, for a vet you sure misinterpreted what was happening during my combo brush and trunkwood pick at the SD Zoo!
> 
> Awkward dogleg picks either have to be rigged with multiple chokers to act right, or they can be taken with a single choker and allowed to orient themselves onto the choker as it hinges over, as was the case in the pick you refer to. That pick was not being stubborn at all, it did exactly what I wanted it to, and once it was oriented to the choker, I severed the hinge completely, dropped down, and signalled spool up for a smooth clean pick of an extremely awkward large dogleg pick.
> 
> Had it been a vertical trunk pick, the cutting technique would have been different, but still utilised only a single steel choker.
> 
> jomoco



Where's the worries Jomo? I like those "dogleg" picks. Same cut I described and it is gone. No going back and back and finessing while the cabeza is in proximity. Just tell the op when it detaches get it the hell outta here.

The worries can be getting the proverbial "facial" as it is hard to figure just how much that damn foliage weighs at times and the butt can jump up in the air.. 

So whatta you do? You keep trying to choke higher or cut lower to get the piece bottom heavy and eventually you have to worry about...

Can the choked section carry all that weight 
Can the crane carry all that weight.

If it has the potential to flip I want to get my ugly face out of there as soon as poss. and the quicker cut suits me. I have even taken to butt hitching the piece until my face is safe. Then release it. Who cares if it flips then?

In your scenario if it is gonna flip up with the butt you are gonna have to stay with that cut until the very end and it STILL may kick up.

With your cut you expose yourself to barberchair as well.


----------



## Hoister

treeclimber101 said:


> Yes sir you are correct I was a Ironworker for a nice stint and worked with all types ..



Sweet ..
Erection? or industrial?

Mohawk and Iroquois showed me the ways of pouring steel ..great guys

Iron worker's are usally the finest rigger's on site ..and know which way a crane goes ..


----------



## jomoco

treevet said:


> Where's the worries Jomo? I like those "dogleg" picks. Same cut I described and it is gone. No going back and back and finessing while the cabeza is in proximity. Just tell the op when it detaches get it the hell outta here.
> 
> The worries can be getting the proverbial "facial" as it is hard to figure just how much that damn foliage weighs at times and the butt can jump up in the air..
> 
> So whatta you do? You keep trying to choke higher or cut lower to get the piece bottom heavy and eventually you have to worry about...
> 
> Can the choked section carry all that weight
> Can the crane carry all that weight.
> 
> If it has the potential to flip I want to get my ugly face out of there as soon as poss. and the quicker cut suits me. I have even taken to butt hitching the piece until my face is safe. Then release it. Who cares if it flips then?
> 
> In your scenario if it is gonna flip up with the butt you are gonna have to stay with that cut until the very end and it STILL may kick up.
> 
> With your cut you expose yourself to barberchair as well.



You sorta sound scared and green TV!

Think about the dogleg in an old handcrank arborist drill for a second and think calm confident thoughts about gravity spinning it at the choke point relative to the cut.

You sound like a scared girl who's seen a mouse!

jomoco:greenchainsaw:


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

*could have been worse*


----------



## Hoister

rbtree said:


> Thanks for clarifying that. Don't mind Jomoco, while he is very experienced and knowledgable, he's not known for understating things, or running away from an argument.....
> 
> I'm considering passing on bidding on a massive black cottonwood, as I think it would be hard to do it in a day. Involves parking a 100 ton crane in the street, with only room for cars, not buses to pass, without sucking in the outriggers (That's a pain.) If done Dec 27-28 (no school buses), We could do it without double or 1.5 time for crane and flaggers. But I'd still bid close to $15,000!!
> 
> Another co thinks they can do it in a day. Assume 10 hours of crane time with 1 hr travel each way. Can a crane that carries it's own c/w's set up on a nearly level road in 30 minutes? Seems a bit fast. That would still be 3 hours out of 10 with no work being done. The tree is at least 65" dbh, 150 feet tall. Not a lot of room to lay down brush or wood. At least 20 picks.....Radius at least 70 feet. With full counterweights, the chart looks adequate. But I'd like to be able to pick 20 foot trunk wood, in order to sell those 3 logs to offset trucking costs.... They'd weigh 7000-10000 lb each.



Do you know the model ?
100 ton with the stone on board, not many out there 

they may have a dolly..where the boom is rest for travel..it can also carry the CW..no big deal ..as soon as the boom is out of the dolly ..boom up and hook onto a stone ..bring it on board....normally i would set my mats get on full outrigger's and then bring the CW on board ...all depends on the site really ..

worst case 10,000 pound at 70 feet.
the examples i give are based solely on a 70ft radius.

Grove/GMK-4085_100T best chart 96ft main @ 15,600 /sections 2/3 extended

Demag/AC-80-1_100T best chart 103.2 main @ 15,400/ sections 20/20/74/74/74 ..(those are precentages of main boom extended).

Grove/GMK-4100B_100T best chart 148 main @ 14,000 / sections probably 3/4/5... dosent show it ..

Liebherr/LTM-1090/2_110T best chart 87ft main ..but i think thats short ..so 111 of main @ 18,700lbs ..92/92/46/46/0 ..theres three different boom configs for the 111 fot lenght ..so to speed it up Id just use 0/0/92/92/92..again percentages of main boom sections..

30 minutes is good .... I can set an 80 up from the time i hit the button to deploy the jacks to the time its in the air full main ..under 30..thats if i dont have to set the mats ..just put dunnage there ..and load the CW on ..


----------



## Hoister

ROOTSXROCKS said:


>



LOL.. saw this years ago ..Somebody forgot that it loose's 1/6 of its weight in the water ..then any additional water in it works against you once its out ..plus gravity 

...

bad day all around


----------



## treevet

jomoco said:


> You sorta sound scared and green TV!
> 
> Think about the dogleg in an old handcrank arborist drill for a second and think calm confident thoughts about gravity spinning it at the choke point relative to the cut.
> 
> You sound like a scared girl who's seen a mouse!
> 
> jomoco:greenchainsaw:



Your wife has always said I was a very courageous man.

Hey, while you been inventin' all those useless gadgets like Ralph Kramden.....I been out doin crane jobs.....every day ....every year.... for 40 years ...and still am. I'll get you straightened out, it just may take a while.....son.


----------



## jomoco

So how was the big k-boom fished out Rootsxrocks?

Barge crane?

Yu caint leave us hangin!

Musta been real bad carma huh?

Murphy was on a real roll that day!

jomoco


----------



## ray benson

That last photo is a fake. It has been edited or photoshopped.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

yep the last one is fake 

but this aint fake Three cranes crashed Monday while trying to lift a steel girder that had fallen at New Delhi's metro rail construction site, a new blow to the project a day after the first accident left six people dead. No injuries have been reported. (July 13) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkzffMe215I


----------



## Hoister

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> yep the last one is fake
> 
> but this aint fake Three cranes crashed Monday while trying to lift a steel girder that had fallen at New Delhi's metro rail construction site, a new blow to the project a day after the first accident left six people dead. No injuries have been reported. (July 13)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkzffMe215I



That's a text book example of being boom bound and what it can do

The hydraulic crane has to bend ..apply a pressure point to it and ..bang ..

Its the equivalent of having somebody bump your leg at the knee from behind ..



In a perfect world...no crane in a multiple crane pick should be loaded at its worst point more than 75% of its rated load chart ....


----------



## Taxmantoo

ray benson said:


> That last photo is a fake. It has been edited or photoshopped.



Correct. The red crane went in as pictured, but the green crane fished the red one out without incident. I believe it was in Scotland or Ireland. A very expensive car retrieval that turned out to be.


----------



## tree MDS

jomoco said:


> You sorta sound scared and green TV!
> 
> Think about the dogleg in an old handcrank arborist drill for a second and think calm confident thoughts about gravity spinning it at the choke point relative to the cut.
> 
> You sound like a scared girl who's seen a mouse!
> 
> jomoco:greenchainsaw:



You old dogs are cool :censored:!

Jon: I was just reading your article in tci about the cabling thingy at a buddy's house while doing the turkey thing (I dont get tci anymore, gotta re-subscribe), very cool to have somewhat followed its beginnings from here.


----------



## jomoco

tree MDS said:


> You old dogs are cool :censored:!
> 
> Jon: I was just reading your article in tci about the cabling thingy at a buddy's house while doing the turkey thing (I dont get tci anymore, gotta re-subscribe), very cool to have somewhat followed its beginnings from here.



Thanks Tree MDS,

Cool? Nah!

Cruel? Most certainly! To trees and fellow climbers!

Seriously though, the internet is the greatest learning tool in mankind's history, and used wisely, will propel us to new heights of education and training, for every imaginable specialty field of study/work that turns your crank.

It's true potential has yet to be felt, or even realised in my opinion. But it shouldn't be long now.

It's definitely a cool new tool for the average man to educate himself with.

I'm thankful for the internet this thanksgiving!

jomoco


----------



## tree MDS

jomoco said:


> Thanks Tree MDS,
> 
> Cool? Nah!
> 
> Cruel? Most certainly! To trees and fellow climbers!
> 
> Seriously though, the internet is the greatest learning tool in mankind's history, and used wisely, will propel us to new heights of education and training, for every imaginable specialty field of study/work that turns your crank.
> 
> It's true potential has yet to be felt, or even realised in my opinion. But it shouldn't be long now.
> 
> It's definitely a cool new tool for the average man to educate himself with.
> 
> I'm thankful for the internet this thanksgiving!
> 
> jomoco



+ 1 on all the above! 

Ralf! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## ozzy42

ROOTSXROCKS said:


>




Reminds me of this old rhyme
THERE WAS AN OLD LADY
There was an old lady who swallowed a fly

I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
I guess she'll die.
There was an old lady who swallowed a spider
That wiggled and jiggled and tickled insider her.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly.
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
I guess she'll die.
There was an old lady who swallowed a bird.
How absurd! To swallow a bird!
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider
That wiggled and jiggled and tickled insider her.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly.
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
I guess she'll die.
(Continue verses)
Cat . . . Imagine that! She swallowed a cat.
Dog . . . What a hog! She swallowed a dog.
Goat . . . She opened her throat and in walked a goat.
Cow . . . I don't know how she swallowed that cow.
There was an old lady, she swallowed a horse.
She died of course!


----------



## tree MDS

tree MDS said:


> + 1 on all the above!
> 
> Ralf! :hmm3grin2orange:



Seriously though jomoco, nice old school vid there as well, i hadnt seen any of you climbing yet... and I like the hat! (besides, yer not supposed to hit yourself in the head anyways). and yes I read the part about the headsets

I always dream of inventing something for treework, getting rich on it and then squashing my competition with the proceeds back on the tree side. Lol.

Nice to dream anyways.... 

I guess we all got our angle though...


----------



## pdqdl

*Crane tiddly-winks*

A video of a crane going in the drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5GY6Efkyjo&feature=quicklist&playnext=5&playnext_from=QL


----------



## treevet

tree MDS said:


> Seriously though jomoco, nice old school vid there as well, i hadnt seen any of you climbing yet... and I like the hat! (besides, yer not supposed to hit yourself in the head anyways). and yes I read the part about the headsets
> 
> I always dream of inventing something for treework, getting rich on it and then squashing my competition with the proceeds back on the tree side. Lol.
> 
> Nice to dream anyways....
> 
> I guess we all got our angle though...



A new bromance? That's speyshul. lol opcorn:


----------



## rbtree

treevet said:


> I respectfully completely disagree with this. In order to make the pick with your scenario you have to TIP the piece and you have unpredictable holding wood and you have the blade buried waaaay into the piece likely getting stuck from side pressure. This could even be how the accident occurred sort of. (see the cut Jomoco made in his zoo vid where he had to keep going back in and the damn thing kept never coming off)
> 
> As I have said before...
> 
> I would double choke the piece with one choke on the boom side and one choke on the finishing cut side.
> 
> I would over tension the finishing cut side by having the sheave moved with a communication with the op on an intercom (checked by feeling tension in the non choked part of the cables of the chokers).
> 
> I would cut half way through on the crane side and then go into the opposite side with my finishing cut, first taking time by scoring the trunk on both sides as a guide so a perfectly MATCHING finishing cut can be attained.
> 
> After getting most of the way into the finishing cut and getting fairly near to the initial face cut.....I am gonna pull the saw out and put 3 wedges, (I usually use 3 dead twigs that just fit) .....one in the middle, one on either side of the middle in a little.
> 
> Then I am gonna run the cut right into the initial cut and with a little tension, just prior to the two cuts meeting, presto, straight up goes the piece....
> 
> ....no tilt, little or no holding wood, no kerf, no saw pinch, no grabbing the saw outta your hands, no swing, no negs at all. If so desired the cutter could even exit the scene when the two cuts are almost touching (go to the ground as in this pick or....if in an aerial...just move away and wave bye bye.
> 
> This IS the RIGHT cut to be made.



Well, as you can see here, that's not what they did when they lifted the log out....*But those of us who guessed its weight were way way off, it weighed 12,100 lb!!* So, the main screw up was not estimating the wood weights before the job started. I can see in the enclosed photo that the piece is much larger than earlier photos made it appear.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091125/ARTICLES/911259959

Now, vet, I still don't agree with your method for that piece of wood, given its asymetricity, and the fact that it wasn't vertical, and had that arm off to the side. However, by slowly picking it to vertical, as I described, the main advantage is the load moves closer to the centerpin, and there's no shock loading at all. Having two chokers near the top, opposed, would prolly be fine, but it would still need to be cut the way I said...or perhaps better, with a face cut first, then, yes, wedges if needed, to bring to to as close to plumb as possible.....IMO of course..

And, all this kibbitzing is moot, as we now know they were picking twice what they were rated for. TWICE!!!!!


----------



## rbtree

I just checked the woodweb calculator, and in order to come up with 12,000 lb, had to enter dimensions that surely seem larger than the photo implies......


Does it look 36 inches at the smallest, 40" at the big end, and a total length of 24 feet?

http://woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl

I wonder if they were including the ball in the weight?


----------



## rbtree

In this article, they say the crane was good for 7900 lb at that extension, and the log was estimated at 6200......but it was cut wrong, and shock loaded the crane. Was it really 12,100 lb? It's large, but doesn't look that large.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091117/ARTICLES/911179907?tc=autorefresh


----------



## ropensaddle

rbtree said:


> Well, as you can see here, that's not what they did when they lifted the log out....*But those of us who guessed its weight were way way off, it weighed 12,100 lb!!* So, the main screw up was not estimating the wood weights before the job started. I can see in the enclosed photo that the piece is much larger than earlier photos made it appear.
> 
> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091125/ARTICLES/911259959
> 
> Now, vet, I still don't agree with your method for that piece of wood, given its asymetricity, and the fact that it wasn't vertical, and had that arm off to the side. However, by slowly picking it to vertical, as I described, the main advantage is the load moves closer to the centerpin, and there's no shock loading at all. Having two chokers near the top, opposed, would prolly be fine, but it would still need to be cut the way I said...or perhaps better, with a face cut first, then, yes, wedges if needed, to bring to to as close to plumb as possible.....IMO of course..
> 
> And, all this kibbitzing is moot, as we now know they were picking twice what they were rated for. TWICE!!!!!



I did not underestimate it, I said several tons too heavy. Funny thing, logs in one area can weigh different than in another. The green wood chart gets you close sometimes but it can be off too.


----------



## brnchbrkr

rbtree said:


> In this article, they say the crane was good for 7900 lb at that extension, and the log was estimated at 6200......but it was cut wrong, and shock loaded the crane. Was it really 12,100 lb? It's large, but doesn't look that large.
> 
> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091117/ARTICLES/911179907?tc=autorefresh


----------



## jomoco

rbtree said:


> Well, as you can see here, that's not what they did when they lifted the log out....*But those of us who guessed its weight were way way off, it weighed 12,100 lb!!* So, the main screw up was not estimating the wood weights before the job started. I can see in the enclosed photo that the piece is much larger than earlier photos made it appear.
> 
> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091125/ARTICLES/911259959
> 
> Now, vet, I still don't agree with your method for that piece of wood, given its asymetricity, and the fact that it wasn't vertical, and had that arm off to the side. However, by slowly picking it to vertical, as I described, the main advantage is the load moves closer to the centerpin, and there's no shock loading at all. Having two chokers near the top, opposed, would prolly be fine, but it would still need to be cut the way I said...or perhaps better, with a face cut first, then, yes, wedges if needed, to bring to to as close to plumb as possible.....IMO of course..
> 
> And, all this kibbitzing is moot, as we now know they were picking twice what they were rated for. TWICE!!!!!



Nice detective work RB!

Maybe this incident will eventually lead to arborists and CO's using a green wood weight calculator on the job in real time?

I did a bit of detective work myself and found that a full set of CW's for a GMK 5160 weighs over 100K lbs!

jomoco


----------



## squad143

As with most incidents, it is usually a combination of errors that add up and cause the accident. Thankfully no one was injured, or worse.


----------



## treevet

also noticed in a new art. posted by RB that they are now identifying the tree as a "diseased tree"

"the weight of the diseased tree upended the 175 ton crane".....

likely a lot of posturing going on here now for liability and political correctness.

All of it will probably take the court system to reveal a semblance of the truth.


----------



## squad143

The first causality is always the truth.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

treevet said:


> also noticed in a new art. posted by RB that they are now identifying the tree as a "diseased tree"
> 
> "the weight of the diseased tree upended the 175 ton crane".....
> 
> likely a lot of posturing going on here now for liability and political correctness.
> 
> All of it will probably take the court system to reveal a semblance of the truth.


Yeah I noticed that too, thier must be a lot of folks questioning the need to take that tree out. 

I can easily imagine that piece weighing as much, Live oak is extremely heavy.
However seeing it from this angle I still don't understand the need for all those doglegged pieces in milling it to lumber. 

evidently they were not very concerned about the weight being so close or they would have trimmed it down more.


----------



## jomoco

"I was in the right tree..... but I musta used the wrong cut......"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ZQTwvlgT4

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

Now what I see is; I would hate to be tied to that in any way shape or form. Knowing the problem could have easily been mitigated by cutting smaller pieces and can't dream of the way they must feel after displacing their customer. In other words, I would hate to be him. That hate and fear is what makes me slower, as; fast is not always best as I have said so many times and here is proof.


----------



## jomoco

ropensaddle said:


> That hate and fear is what makes me slower, as fast is not always best as; I have said so many times and here is proof.



Have a zeat on mein couch my goot man, unt tell me more of zeez problemz?

Fazinating!

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

jomoco said:


> Have a zeat on mein couch my goot man, unt tell me more of zeez problemz?
> 
> Fazinating!
> 
> jomoco



Hey its hanzz wazzup guy, it is like this pal. I no wanty to be the friggin idiot lol. Hey you like my muzzy muscles where is franz lol


----------



## tree MDS

.....but, but, thats such a sweet saw log they got themselves there, lol. 

If I was the HO I'd definitely wanna strangle this atlas dude.


----------



## ropensaddle

tree MDS said:


> .....but, but, thats such a sweet saw log they got themselves there, lol.
> 
> If I was the HO I'd definitely wanna strangle this atlas dude.



Guaranty you he is part ostrich, got his head buried in the sand right now


----------



## toddstreeservic

ropensaddle said:


> Guaranty you he is part ostrich, got his head buried in the sand right now



speaking of ostrich I bet he is on his way down under right about now.


----------



## tree MDS

ropensaddle said:


> Guaranty you he is part ostrich, got his head buried in the sand right now



Just kick him in the :censored: until his head falls out, then strangle. lol


----------



## jomoco

Are you yet another victim of instant karma Rope?

I have it on good authority(TV), that these unfortunate victims are not to be referred to that way!

They were both highly rated experts, who both miscalculated at the same time.

Yeah yeah, that's it, see?

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

jomoco said:


> Are you yet another victim of instant karma Rope?
> 
> I have it on good authority(TV), that these unfortunate victims are not to be referred to that way!
> 
> They were both highly rated experts, who both miscalculated at the same time.
> 
> Yeah yeah, that's it, see?
> 
> jomoco



Man I confess I nailed a fence a time or two and fell into a septic tank about 24 years ago, backed into a shop, light damage under 8 bones. That be the extent of it bro. Sorry I do not rate them as experts quite the opposite in my rating system but ya know


----------



## Hoister

The proof is in the pudding ..

If a 175T unit had been sent out instead of a de-rated 175 ..that machine would have handled that chunk at 130ft..Even with the first jib on it would have still handled it at 130fT...as a full 175t unit

Reliable learned a lesson ..despite best efforts ,it's still Mother Nature and she's a #####...next time they will send it all..

*treevet 
"the weight of the diseased tree upended the 175 ton crane".....

likely a lot of posturing going on here now for liability and political correctness.

All of it will probably take the court system to reveal a semblance of the truth. *

You can likely bet on that ..the argument will only last about 10 minutes..If it was a true crane specialist sent in from OSHA..A guy would have to be blind to not see that crane wasnt configured to handle that lift ...now that its weight is generally known ..Osha will still have to haul it to a certified scale to have its weight determination stand up in court ..

Im wondering if that thats a gross weight not the tare ..and the press went with the bigger number for the flash ..I say that because theres seems to be a little argument about the weight versus whats pictured..in some previous post


You guys know better than me ..looking at the picture again ..any way that log would hit 10,500 ..assuming the reported weight was with about 1500lbs for the block and rigging..


----------



## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> The proof is in the pudding ..
> 
> If a 175T unit had been sent out instead of a de-rated 175 ..that machine would have handled that chunk at 130ft..Even with the first jib on it would have still handled it at 130fT...as a full 175t unit
> 
> Reliable learned a lesson ..despite best efforts ,it's still Mother Nature and she's a #####...next time they will send it all..
> 
> *treevet
> "the weight of the diseased tree upended the 175 ton crane".....
> 
> likely a lot of posturing going on here now for liability and political correctness.
> 
> All of it will probably take the court system to reveal a semblance of the truth. *
> 
> You can likely bet on that ..the argument will only last about 10 minutes..If it was a true crane specialist sent in from OSHA..A guy would have to be blind to not see that crane wasnt configured to handle that lift ...now that its weight is generally known ..Osha will still have to haul it to a certified scale to have its weight determination stand up in court ..
> 
> Im wondering if that thats a gross weight not the tare ..and the press went with the bigger number for the flash ..I say that because theres seems to be a little argument about the weight versus whats pictured..in some previous post
> 
> 
> You guys know better than me ..looking at the picture again ..any way that log would hit 10,500 ..assuming the reported weight was with about 1500lbs for the block and rigging..



That log very likely could hit that mark or a little over. Logs that size when using my grapple truck have to be cut in six foot sections to load and they are stihl very heavy and have to pull them to the truck to lift. Thing treevet was meaning I think is; the tree likely was not diseased and likely not a true danger with appropriate guying and pruning.


----------



## ropensaddle

ropensaddle said:


> That log very likely could hit that mark or a little over. Logs that size when using my grapple truck have to be cut in six foot sections to load and they are stihl very heavy and have to pull them to the truck to lift. Thing treevet was meaning I think is; the tree likely was not diseased and likely not a true danger with appropriate guying and pruning.



I think we are going to see shared responsibility in this case but if it is ruled malpractice, woe to the ca that might just release the co from any liability. One thing is certain, I would be having everyone p tested, as it seems drugs may have been at work on that one.


----------



## tree MDS

ropensaddle said:


> I think we are going to see shared responsibility in this case but if it is ruled malpractice, woe to the ca that might just release the co from any liability. One thing is certain, I would be having everyone p tested, as it seems drugs may have been at work on that one.



Lets not get you started on the pee cup again rope. :hmm3grin2orange:

Speaking of testing however: Does anyone know if its too late to test that tree for SOD or whatever this atlas guy was claiming the tree was so "sick" with??


----------



## ropensaddle

tree MDS said:


> Lets not get you started on the pee cup again rope. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Speaking of testing however: Does anyone know if its too late to test that tree for SOD or whatever this atlas guy was claiming the tree was so "sick" with??



I p'ed in one two days ago lol. I could sell my p to all the hiding hippies for mucho denero! They would need lab work.


----------



## jomoco

SOD is a strain of Phytopthera fungi I believe.

Should be quite do-able at the nearest county ag lab.

Revenge of the innocent slain senior oak tree?

I forward the motion your honor!

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

jomoco said:


> SOD is a strain of Phytopthera fungi I believe.
> 
> Should be quite do-able at the nearest county ag lab.
> 
> Revenge of the innocent slain senior oak tree?
> 
> I forward the motion your honor!
> 
> jomoco



Yup, I concur, hang em high!


----------



## Hoister

I just did a little looking around ..In regards to the 200t crane used by Precision Crane to remove the tree..

The crane invovled was a Grove GMK5175

Grove also made another hydraulic with the same spec's as whats listed at the Precision Crane website it was the GMK 5180..180metric tonne..200 ton in the us

they had 77000lb CW on it with 156 ft of boom ... ironic .. didnt send all the CW with that one either ..just enough to do the job ..


----------



## tree MDS

jomoco said:


> SOD is a strain of Phytopthera fungi I believe.
> 
> Should be quite do-able at the nearest county ag lab.
> 
> Revenge of the innocent slain senior oak tree?
> 
> I forward the motion your honor!
> 
> jomoco



These are my thoughts too, start at the beginning: the assessment from atlas that started all this trouble in the first place.

That old tree had some good revenge already...probably got alot more left in the old boy before all the dust settles though.

If I was the HO and that tree tested clean for disease, I'd be looking at a whole separate lawsuit for the loss of such a tree based on potential scare tactics employed by atlas...cha-ching!

Looks


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> I just did a little looking around ..In regards to the 200t crane used by Precision Crane to remove the tree..
> 
> The crane invovled was a Grove GMK5175
> 
> Grove also made another hydraulic with the same spec's as whats listed at the Precision Crane website it was the GMK 5180..180metric tonne..200 ton in the us
> 
> they had 77000lb CW on it with 156 ft of boom ... ironic .. didnt send all the CW with that one either ..just enough to do the job ..



They used no jib either, despite the same 12K pick that tipped the 175 being farther away when the 200 recovered it, and then determined the pick's real weight.

jomoco


----------



## Hoister

Hoister said:


> The proof is in the pudding ..
> 
> *If a 175T unit had been sent out instead of a de-rated 175* ..that machine would have handled that chunk at 130ft..Even with the first jib on it would have still handled it at 130fT...as a full 175t unit[]
> 
> 
> 
> You still dont get it do you jo..
> 
> 77,000lbs CW made that 200T a very good 150T unit..versus the very good 90T that the 175 was in there as ..


----------



## jomoco

I larned decades ego not tu doo no carnfounded heavy base pix with a wobbledee stinkin jib!

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle

jomoco said:


> I larned decades ego not tu doo no carnfounded heavy base pix with a wobbledee stinkin jib!
> 
> jomoco



Hey jomo it was not like this was it bro?


----------



## Hoister

In the mean time ..given the information in the media release ..based on what the "200T" crane was doing ..

I searched my older charts ..
I found a chart for a Liebherr LTM1160/2 with a chart for 77,000lbs counter weight and a 156 ft boom lenght ..
Its best radius for picking up that chunk was 111ft..34 meter

Its listed as a 200T unit as well ..altough ..they are often aslo refered to as a 190T


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> I larned decades ego not tu doo no carnfounded heavy base pix with a wobbledee stinkin jib!
> 
> jomoco



Were they Grove's ? the old Link Belts ..?

If so ..you would be right ..the older generation of cranes were not the best pickers with the jib on ..even worse if the power pin was deployed ....but they are tough old girls ..i'll give it that ..

The charts were solely based on loaded main boom angle when less than all the telescopic section's were out ..


It started to change back in the late 70's early 80's.. but the mid 90's to today have really seen a hugh advancement is material technology ,material tensile strength and boom design ..




And on some units ..your better on jib than you are on main ..the Krupps were like that ..The Grove GMK 175 ..was basically a enhanced Krupp KMK 5165
Grove bought out Krupp in the early-mid 90's..the GMK 5175 was one of the last built by Grove based on the Krupp ideology


----------



## VA-Sawyer

*I'm learning, keep posting*

Hoister,

This has been very educational for me. Would like to see more load charts posted from various cranes. How do you adjust the charts when you can't get the crane level ?
Rick

PS to Hoister... I think your PM box is full.


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> I larned decades ego not tu doo no carnfounded heavy base pix with a wobbledee stinkin jib!
> 
> jomoco


Forgive me jo ..im slo

Had a cigarette ..thought about your comment ..

Am I correct in assuming that had this job been *your's* given the option at the start to use that 175 with the jib as a 90T unit ..or using the 175 with more counter weight as ,say, 135T ..and no jib ..you would agree on renting a 135..
Its only one more slab of stone ..so theres no extra trucking .. the load would easily go down the road on a tridem trailer ..with the mats also on board.. the cost difference would be about 40-65 bucks/hr difference from a 90t unit ..
If you want all 175T capacity ..then its still only a trailer swtich ..and you have your 175 in 1 load ..with mats ,,no jib required ..at 65 bucks/hr +over the 90T rate 
Cant say what you pay ..but a 90T unit would rent about $200/hr+/-..

If thats the case ..then ..Im your side ..most diffinatly ..As an OE ..Id be nuts to disagree with you ....

With that all in mind ..then its easy to see where the treeman really crunched a few number's while the sale's rep made a hell of a pitch ..that ended up in a hell of a bang ..


the jib still has its place and often ..there's no avoiding putting it on and having a go at the job ..


----------



## treevet

Hoister said:


> Forgive me jo ..im slo
> 
> Had a cigarette ..thought about your comment ..
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that had this job been *your's* given the option at the start to use that 175 with the jib as a 90T unit ..or using the 175 with more counter weight as ,say, 135T ..and no jib ..you would agree on renting a 135..
> Its only one more slab of stone ..so theres no extra trucking .. the load would easily go down the road on a tridem trailer ..with the mats also on board.. the cost difference would be about 40-65 bucks/hr difference from a 90t unit ..
> If you want all 175T capacity ..then its still only a trailer swtich ..and you have your 175 in 1 load ..with mats ,,no jib required ..at 65 bucks/hr +over the 90T rate
> Cant say what you pay ..but a 90T unit would rent about $200/hr+/-..
> 
> If thats the case ..then ..Im your side ..most diffinatly ..As an OE ..Id be nuts to disagree with you ....
> 
> With that all in mind ..then its easy to see where the treeman really crunched a few number's while the sale's rep made a hell of a pitch ..that ended up in a hell of a bang ..
> 
> 
> the jib still has its place and often ..there's no avoiding putting it on and having a go at the job ..



Hindsight it 20 20. Can make even an armchair arborist (like Jomoco) look like a genius.


----------



## Hoister

VA-Sawyer said:


> Hoister,
> 
> This has been very educational for me. Would like to see more load charts posted from various cranes. How do you adjust the charts when you can't get the crane level ?
> Rick
> 
> PS to Hoister... *I think your PM box is full*.



It says its empty ..

The truck mount ,boom truck ..if its on outrigger's its supposed to be within less than 1° off level
not level ..your pretty much on your own ..unless you can get an engineer to run new charts for varying degree's of out of level .. but then you'll have to install a list indicator ..same as barge mounted crane's

perfectly level is always the goal ..


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> Forgive me jo ..im slo
> 
> Had a cigarette ..thought about your comment ..
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that had this job been *your's* given the option at the start to use that 175 with the jib as a 90T unit ..or using the 175 with more counter weight as ,say, 135T ..and no jib ..you would agree on renting a 135..
> Its only one more slab of stone ..so theres no extra trucking .. the load would easily go down the road on a tridem trailer ..with the mats also on board.. the cost difference would be about 40-65 bucks/hr difference from a 90t unit ..
> If you want all 175T capacity ..then its still only a trailer swtich ..and you have your 175 in 1 load ..with mats ,,no jib required ..at 65 bucks/hr +over the 90T rate
> Cant say what you pay ..but a 90T unit would rent about $200/hr+/-..
> 
> If thats the case ..then ..Im your side ..most diffinatly ..As an OE ..Id be nuts to disagree with you ....
> 
> With that all in mind ..then its easy to see where the treeman really crunched a few number's while the sale's rep made a hell of a pitch ..that ended up in a hell of a bang ..
> 
> 
> the jib still has its place and often ..there's no avoiding putting it on and having a go at the job ..



I think a 120 ton hydro with a full set of CW's could have handled that pick on the main boom. Almost all the big hydrocranes I'm experienced with are all german made krupps A/T cranes.

A 175 with full CW's is the perfect choice for long distance picking capacity to remove a big heavy oak, no doubt.

But with either choice you still want a full compliment of CW's to match each crane's rated capacity, with no need of jibs period.

jomoco


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> I think a 120 ton hydro with a full set of CW's could have handled that pick on the main boom. Almost all the big hydrocranes I'm experienced with are all german made krupps A/T cranes.
> 
> A 175 with full CW's is the perfect choice for long distance picking capacity to remove a big heavy oak, no doubt.
> 
> But with either choice you still want a full compliment of CW's to match each crane's rated capacity, with no need of jibs period.
> 
> jomoco


But thats what Im getting Jo..
The bigger crane means more money .

Your trying to get the job ,,the sales rep for the crane wants.the work ..

You talked to your client ..you have an idea of how much money is there ..talked to the crane guy ..this is how much money i have ..and presto..your order is filled ..it reaches and gets the job done ..as long as your careful..

From your perspective ..you now have a choice ..use the crane as it is ..OR..go back to your client for more money and get the crane "you" want ..thats a better choice ..
Go back to the crane guy for a better price on a larger crane ..

but Theres no more money ..

Now you have a choice ..use the crane as it is or walk away ..
The crane guy ..wants the sale ..a light should have come on in his skull ..for what it take's to load another stone .."this time" I'm your buddy ..I'll send you a derated 175T unit as a 135T crane at the 90T rate..

Or ---everybody walks away and the home owner gets a newspaper handy guy to flop it in the neighbours yard for 50$..


----------



## jomoco

Hoister said:


> It says its empty ..
> 
> The truck mount ,boom truck ..if its on outrigger's its supposed to be within less than 1° off level
> not level ..your pretty much on your own ..unless you can get an engineer to run new charts for varying degree's of out of level .. but then you'll have to install a list indicator ..same as barge mounted crane's
> 
> perfectly level is always the goal ..



You're actin mighty peculiar for a certified crane operator not to warn folks that operating a crane out of level is crazy dangerous, a rotation gear stripping accident that's sure to happen if you're foolish enough to do it.

The rotation gears on hydrocranes are one of, if not their weakest links.

I've yet to meet a CO that'd even consider it for a second.

jomoco


----------



## Hoister

jomoco said:


> You're actin mighty peculiar for a certified crane operator not to warn folks that operating a crane out of level is crazy dangerous, a rotation gear stripping accident that's sure to happen if you're foolish enough to do it.
> 
> The rotation gears on hydrocranes are one of, if not their weakest links.
> 
> I've yet to meet a CO that'd even consider it for a second.
> 
> jomoco



That's why an engineer has to run the charts ..that's the only way to get a modification to a certified hoisting device.. 

If its engineered ..and stamped ..by that approved ..

I did say ..have an engineer in my post ..on that ..just read it again ..
I did say ..out of level ..your on your own ..meaning ..your screwed when it goes wrong .



from a OE's stand point ..theres not a crane manufacturer out there that endorse's the hoisting of personel directly from the ball ..

Those who run the boom trucks have a basket that's engineered by the maunfacturer thats fixed to the boom ..
with that theres a range diagram, and the conditions for use ..

the idea with personel "handling" is no different than an elevator and thats a 10:1 safety factor..other places may vary ..


an elevator has a redundacy for the line breaking ..a crane dosent..


Every place is different ..


----------



## Hoister

wow ...talk about clear the room ?


----------



## tree MDS

Hoister said:


> wow ...talk about clear the room ?



Probably nap time. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## treevet

Well, this event that may appear to be the tree removal/crane pick crime of the centuries really is not as relevant or important as one may think.

The two main experts here Hoister and Homoco (damn missed the j and hit the h) .....the former, although extremely knowledgeable in regards to the equipment and its operation and capabilities....has never even picked a limb out of a tree and the latter, thought some blocks sitting on a flat bed were the key evidence in his crime of the century theory .....but just turned out to be some blocks of wood instead of the insidious missing counterweights.

In reality these giant cranes are rarely used in day to day tree removals. The smaller ones are likely much safer to use from closer set up, familiarity of crane op and arb. from constant teamings, and potential damage from failure or collapse.


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## jomoco

treevet said:


> Well, this event that may appear to be the tree removal/crane pick crime of the centuries really is not as relevant or important as one may think.
> 
> The two main experts here Hoister and Homoco (damn missed the j and hit the h) .....the former, although extremely knowledgeable in regards to the equipment and its operation and capabilities....has never even picked a limb out of a tree and the latter, thought some blocks sitting on a flat bed were the key evidence in his crime of the century theory .....but just turned out to be some blocks of wood instead of the insidious missing counterweights.
> 
> In reality these giant cranes are rarely used in day to day tree removals. The smaller ones are likely much safer to use from closer set up, familiarity of crane op and arb. from constant teamings, and potential damage from failure or collapse.




So it's your assertion that the 60K lbs of missing counterweights had no, roll in this travesty?

Come into my web TV, closer.

jomoco


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## Hoister

jomoco said:


> So it's your assertion that the 60K lbs of missing counterweights had no, roll in this travesty?
> 
> Come into my web TV, closer.
> 
> jomoco




:deadhorse:


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## Hoister

jomoco said:


> *So it's your assertion that the 60K lbs of missing counterweights had no, roll in this travesty?*
> Come into my web TV, closer.
> 
> jomoco




:deadhorse:

And jo ..it wasnt 60k lb's ..
75k lb's ..to bring her to a 175 T unit .... give or take a pound


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## squad143

Wow, 325 posts in 10 days. Interesting thread. opcorn:


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## jomoco

I agree with RB's method to a large extent, in that the best approach to dealing with iffy picks, is to face them straight for the crane's center pin, and choke the pick from the farthest side from the crane, to make dang sure it moves towards the crane, and away from you.

From the crane centerpin's perspective, that funky lip left on the trunk at 3 oclock, with the boom failing towards 11 oclock to the trunk's 12 oclock?

I smell jump cut?

jomoco


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## Hoister

jomoco said:


> I agree with RB's method to a large extent, in that the best approach to dealing with iffy picks, is to face them straight for the crane's center pin, and choke the pick from the farthest side from the crane, to make dang sure it moves towards the crane, and away from you.
> 
> From the crane centerpin's perspective, that funky lip left on the trunk at 3 oclock, with the boom failing towards 11 oclock to the trunk's 12 oclock?
> 
> *I smell jump cut?*
> 
> jomoco



Can you elaborate ??


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## treeclimber101

Hoister said:


> Sweet ..
> Erection? or industrial?
> 
> Mohawk and Iroquois showed me the ways of pouring steel ..great guys
> 
> Iron worker's are usally the finest rigger's on site ..and know which way a crane goes ..



Structural Ironworkers Local 401 in phila. for five Yrs I was a connector for Cornell Steel and have worked with cranes that need cranes like the one that tipped to put the real crane together, and by the way the houses doesn't really look that bad , and the crane is salvageable , if it sucks in the boom than your good to go . And you are right other than Riggers Ironworkers are the next best thing,  I have alot of family still hanging iron all over the tri-state area so maybe one day we'll meet..


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## treeclimber101

Good what not to do thread if your gonna rent a rig for tree's ..


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## jomoco

Hoister said:


> Can you elaborate ??



It's almost like a pressure release strap trigger on a leaning tree that crafty old loggers use to fall them very quickly and run.

Obviously if the path of overload followed by the boom was on the trunk's 9 oclock side, and the release point/trigger was on the trunk's 3 oclock side?

The trigger should ideally face towards the crane, not it's left or right side.

Making cuts that suddenly release alot or all of a log's weight has it's role in the arborist toolbag, but they're extremely rare and unlikely when doing takedowns with a crane, in my opinion.

I'd love to see a close up shot of that trunk's funky lip to determine if tearing or cutting released that fateful pick?

jomoco


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## treevet

jomoco said:


> It's almost like a pressure release strap trigger on a leaning tree that crafty old loggers use to fall them very quickly and run.
> 
> Obviously if the path of overload followed by the boom was on the trunk's 9 oclock side, and the release point/trigger was on the trunk's 3 oclock side?
> 
> The trigger should ideally face towards the crane, not it's left or right side.
> 
> Making cuts that suddenly release alot or all of a log's weight has it's role in the arborist toolbag, but they're extremely rare and unlikely when doing takedowns with a crane, in my opinion.
> 
> I'd love to see a close up shot of that trunk's funky lip to determine if tearing or cutting released that fateful pick?
> 
> jomoco



The blind giving instruction to the blind


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## ropensaddle

treevet said:


> The blind giving instruction to the blind



almost a nova lol my last bullet


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## jomoco

treevet said:


> The blind giving instruction to the blind



Well I guess you must be blind then TV!

That funky trunk lip means something to me, maybe not you!

What's your opinion, was it cut, or torn off to release the pick?

What does your shigo book say TV?

jomoco


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## Hoister

*Electrical ..*

So , up for working around high tension wire's ...

You grab a Gorrilla and your going across the room ..much like that 175 and the log she was holding on to ..

But you only have to get just close enough to a snake to bite you ..you dont have to touch it ..

And thats working around electricity with equipment..

Just as a spark plug works,electricity jumps a gap to make an arc ..electricity will do the same in equipment ..

In an Ideal world ..we maintain our limitation's of 10-15-20 feet ..
But it happens ..the snake will bite ..

I think we all know why it happens ..but what do we do when a machine makes contact with High tension wire's?

The operator of the equipment must make every attempt to break the contact ..

the operator shall warn everyone around not to move or come closer ..everyone stay away ..or stand still.

the operator must stay with the machine as long it is safe to do so ..and abandon said machine when the operators safety is directly compromised ..
So unless flames are licking your butt ..dont leave ..I'll get to the reason *

now your on a site ..the equipment has made contact ..as a ground person ..what do you do? ..

First ..a guy has to understand how electricity moves ..

Always from the high potential to the lower potential ..it seeks the path of least resistance ..meaning ..in an area where theres a 10,000 volt charge ..any area thats lesser than 10,000 volt ..the electricity will flow ..this is called "potential"
If your standing in a grid thats charged with 10,000 volts ..you dont get blown away ..because you at the same potential ....meaning your body already has 10,000 volt in it ..not more not less ..Its the difference in potential that kill's..
This is why a bird can sit on high tension wires ..theres no where for the potential to flow ..so it remains the same in the bird.

Gradients ..







Thats a weather map you say ..yes it is .
But just as the pressure line's in a weather map are never the same nor is the way electricity will flow through the ground ..its never the same way twice ..
the center line represents here the source of the electrical ..each line further from that is at a lesser potential than the one before it ..
For a number ..
the center line is 20,000 volt..the next 18,000v ,17,900v ,14,000v..its completely random but predictable ..electricity will dissapte through the ground in a circumfrence from its source..how much ..depends on the geography and soil type..
The difference between 20,000v and 18,000 volt is 2000v potential ..

Meaning
if you were to walk from the center circle to the next outter circle in a full stride ..you would recieve a 2000v shock..

Ya with me ?


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## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> So , up for working around high tension wire's ...
> 
> You grab a Gorrilla and your going across the room ..much like that 175 and the log she was holding on to ..
> 
> But you only have to get just close enough to a snake to bite you ..you dont have to touch it ..
> 
> And thats working around electricity with equipment..
> 
> Just as a spark plug works,electricity jumps a gap to make an arc ..electricity will do the same in equipment ..
> 
> In an Ideal world ..we maintain our limitation's of 10-15-20 feet ..
> But it happens ..the snake will bite ..
> 
> I think we all know why it happens ..but what do we do when a machine makes contact with High tension wire's?
> 
> The operator of the equipment must make every attempt to break the contact ..
> 
> the operator shall warn everyone around not to move or come closer ..everyone stay away ..or stand still.
> 
> the operator must stay with the machine as long it is safe to do so ..and abandon said machine when the operators safety is directly compromised ..
> So unless flames are licking your butt ..dont leave ..I'll get to the reason *
> 
> now your on a site ..the equipment has made contact ..as a ground person ..what do you do? ..
> 
> First ..a guy has to understand how electricity moves ..
> 
> Always from the high potential to the lower potential ..it seeks the path of least resistance ..meaning ..in an area where theres a 10,000 volt charge ..any area thats lesser than 10,000 volt ..the electricity will flow ..this is called "potential"
> If your standing in a grid thats charged with 10,000 volts ..you dont get blown away ..because you at the same potential ....meaning your body already has 10,000 volt in it ..not more not less ..Its the difference in potential that kill's..
> This is why a bird can sit on high tension wires ..theres no where for the potential to flow ..so it remains the same in the bird.
> 
> Gradients ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a weather map you say ..yes it is .
> But just as the pressure line's in a weather map are never the same nor is the way electricity will flow through the ground ..its never the same way twice ..
> the center line represents here the source of the electrical ..each line further from that is at a lesser potential than the one before it ..
> For a number ..
> the center line is 20,000 volt..the next 18,000v ,17,900v ,14,000v..its completely random but predictable ..electricity will dissapte through the ground in a circumfrence from its source..how much ..depends on the geography and soil type..
> The difference between 20,000v and 18,000 volt is 2000v potential ..
> 
> Meaning
> if you were to walk from the center circle to the next outter circle in a full stride ..you would recieve a 2000v shock..
> 
> Ya with me ?



Fairly good their hoister, I have trimmed burning power lines for years and knowing how to stay out of the path of least resistance is what has kept me safe. I argued with a well known line clearance guy about this for an hour. Its all good I guess they shut down the power which is safer but knowing how potentials work and how to avoid completing the circuit along with years of practical experiance will allow you to do more than most think.
Then there is the deadly inductive power that gets a bit tricky.


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## Hoister

Ok ..
So now you have an idea of how you may die in an electrical contact situation ..
How do i survive an electrical contact situation ..

#1 ..dont move ..I mean it ..do not remove your feet from where they are ..for all you know your on a series of gradient lines ..If you heard the WAP!..your still alive ....Do Not Leave Your Postion !!!

#2..But I have to go ..everything is on fire ..or theres matertial gonna fall on me ..

Understand this an practice it ..

"shuffle your feet"..you will as slowly as posable ..shuffle your feet ..as not enough to let another foot leave the groung..and as not enough to get one foot completely in front of the other ....
The idea behind this is that your always in contact with the potential as you move you will remain at what ever the potential is beneath you feet ..nothing leaves the ground ..or moves to suddenly into an eare of high to low potential ..or vice versa ..

#3..First rule of rescue..this is the worst..
contact has been made your aware of this ..Your buddy drops ..then another and he's screaming ..
first rule of rescue in a electrical contact situation 
*Do Not Become A Victim*

Your buddy that dropped ..he's dead ..get over it ..
Your buddy thats screaming ..he may live ..
But you wont if you move .. Do not leave your footing ..You can shuffle ..but how are you gonna touch him or aid him ..If the potential is all around ..
Voice your concern ..and tell him to hang on ..Your no good to him dead ..

All Clear !!
How do i know when ..its all clear ..

The noise from the wires stopped ..nope ..

Hydro grids are equipped with a self resetting breaker that will pop and reset at a particular time determined by the utility ..the number of times is also determned by the utility ..
This serves as a means for the grid to blow debris ,,like tree limbs clear ..and protect the sytem ..also it saves on having to send out a crew everytime a tree branch pops the breaker..

So the all clear ..
Only an official from an electrical authority would give the all clear ..or the EMS tech's who have explicit contact with the authority ..can they give the all clear ..
Untill then ..stay where your at ..... 



Was that clear enough ..?



""


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## Hoister

ropensaddle said:


> Then there is the deadly inductive power that gets a bit tricky.



Induced power ..yes i forgot about that ..

For those who.dont know ..
A crane for example ..can essentially become a capacitor when ,,booming ,swinging ..through an electrical field ..
meaning with out proper grounding technique ..its possable to get a shock from a crane ..thats just working in the vacinity of the wire's ..


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## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> Ok ..
> So now you have an idea of how you may die in an electrical contact situation ..
> How do i survive an electrical contact situation ..
> 
> #1 ..dont move ..I mean it ..do not remove your feet from where they are ..for all you know your on a series of gradient lines ..If you heard the WAP!..your still alive ....Do Not Leave Your Postion !!!
> 
> #2..But I have to go ..everything is on fire ..or theres matertial gonna fall on me ..
> 
> Understand this an practice it ..
> 
> "shuffle your feet"..you will as slowly as posable ..shuffle your feet ..as not enough to let another foot leave the groung..and as not enough to get one foot completely in front of the other ....
> The idea behind this is that your always in contact with the potential as you move you will remain at what ever the potential is beneath you feet ..nothing leaves the ground ..or moves to suddenly into an eare of high to low potential ..or vice versa ..
> 
> #3..First rule of rescue..this is the worst..
> contact has been made your aware of this ..Your buddy drops ..then another and he's screaming ..
> first rule of rescue in a electrical contact situation
> *Do Not Become A Victim*
> 
> Your buddy that dropped ..he's dead ..get over it ..
> Your buddy thats screaming ..he may live ..
> But you wont if you move .. Do not leave your footing ..You can shuffle ..but how are you gonna touch him or aid him ..If the potential is all around ..
> Voice your concern ..and tell him to hang on ..Your no good to him dead ..
> 
> All Clear !!
> How do i know when ..its all clear ..
> 
> The noise from the wires stopped ..nope ..
> 
> Hydro grids are equipped with a self resetting breaker that will pop and reset at a particular time determined by the utility ..the number of times is also determned by the utility ..
> This serves as a means for the grid to blow debris ,,like tree limbs clear ..and protect the sytem ..also it saves on having to send out a crew everytime a tree branch pops the breaker..
> 
> So the all clear ..
> Only an official from an electrical authority would give the all clear ..or the EMS tech's who have explicit contact with the authority ..can they give the all clear ..
> Untill then ..stay where your at .....
> 
> 
> 
> Was that clear enough ..?
> 
> 
> 
> ""



Three shot been there too lol. Say the lines down on your bucket stay calm don't touch anything and I mean anything. If you are not being shocked and in eminent danger stay where you are is good advice. I will look up at the fuse handle single phaze and if the handle drops and they don't always I will leave. If it blows and don't drop I will stay right where I am. Three phaze and higher are not fused usually they are on until the substation blows or is shut down. They do run a neutral to balance load though. Higher voltage don't even run a neutral just static lines. I got in a bad position once in a burning tree trimming single phaze and some ass hole stole the ground off the pole and it was windy, kept getting buzzed every time the wind blew, then it started raining. I quickly took my pruner and clipped the limb causing my discomfort and went home for the day while they re grounded the line.


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## Hoister

ropensaddle said:


> Three shot been there too lol. Say the lines down on your bucket stay calm don't touch anything and I mean anything. If you are not being shocked and in eminent danger stay where you are is good advice. I will look up at the fuse handle single phaze and if the handle drops and they don't always I will leave. If it blows and don't drop I will stay right where I am. Three phaze and higher are not fused usually they are on until the substation blows or is shut down. They do run a neutral to balance load though. Higher voltage don't even run a neutral just static lines. I got in a bad position once in a burning tree trimming single phaze and some ass hole stole the ground off the pole and it was windy, kept getting buzzed every time the wind blew, then it started raining. I quickly took my pruner and clipped the limb causing my discomfort and went home for the day while they re grounded the line.



LOL

And people say im mental !!!


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## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> LOL
> 
> And people say im mental !!!



You would be surprised shock therapy does work friend lol


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## Hoister

But ..seriously ..hydro is not to be screwed with ..
Saw a post on the wires here ..I hoped to shed some light ..

I know a guy and another he's an op ..and a friend
This guy i know has no ..balls ..yeah ..they got fried ..
the op ..he's screwed for life ..loss of motor function ,head aches ,chronic arthritis
my friend ..lost his dad and his brother ..highway work ..in the dark ..It was very devastating for him 

So stay safe ..stay away ..


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## ropensaddle

Hoister said:


> But ..seriously ..hydro is not to be screwed with ..
> Saw a post on the wires here ..I hoped to shed some light ..
> 
> I know a guy and another he's an op ..and a friend
> This guy i know has no ..balls ..yeah ..they got fried ..
> the op ..he's screwed for life ..loss of motor function ,head aches ,chronic arthritis
> my friend ..lost his dad and his brother ..highway work ..in the dark ..It was very devastating for him
> 
> So stay safe ..stay away ..



I agree if it is not your job stay away if it is learn before you leap .


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## Sparky8370

ropensaddle said:


> You would be surprised shock therapy does work friend lol



Worked for me. I was replacing GFCI receptacles at a "Pep Boys" because there are a ton of geniuses out there who think a GFI is water proof, so they pressure washed the walls in the garage area and fried them all. There was one behind a hydraulic press. It's a lot quicker for me to just work stuff live, so unless it's really dangerous, I just work it live. I was installing the new receptacle while leaning through this piece of equipment when I lost my grip on my screwdriver, and then re-gripped it...right on the shaft. My chest was on the metal surface of the equipment, it nailed me through my heart. So, I walked out to the main store so there were people around me. I wanted someone to see if I dropped, but I didn't want to look like a (*meow*) and complain about it. As I was walking around out there, I checked my pulse. Before that I had an arrhythmia, but the shock reset my heart beat to normal.


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## tomtrees58

Hoister said:


> Induced power ..yes i forgot about that ..
> 
> For those who.dont know ..
> A crane for example ..can essentially become a capacitor when ,,booming ,swinging ..through an electrical field ..
> meaning with out proper grounding technique ..its possable to get a shock from a crane ..thats just working in the vacinity of the wire's ..


 not just a crane but the best bucket truck can too tom trees


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## ropensaddle

tomtrees58 said:


> not just a crane but the best bucket truck can too tom trees



Tom mine is rated and was tested to 100kv theoretically I could touch one without shock but I would not try it. However if it gets between phazes or phaze to ground"neutral" it provides no protection. Around power a line clearance pro learns his best pal is a clean dry rated pruner it can save your life in many ways.


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## brisawyer

Local co was building a college and swung a crane boom into the wires 23kv I think. Engine one pulled up in time to see the guy climb down the ladder. It was a bad scene guy dead and cooking 40 construction workers screaming do something. All you can do is wait on power co.


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## deevo

Hoister said:


> Ok ..
> So now you have an idea of how you may die in an electrical contact situation ..
> How do i survive an electrical contact situation ..
> 
> #1 ..dont move ..I mean it ..do not remove your feet from where they are ..for all you know your on a series of gradient lines ..If you heard the WAP!..your still alive ....Do Not Leave Your Postion !!!
> 
> #2..But I have to go ..everything is on fire ..or theres matertial gonna fall on me ..
> 
> Understand this an practice it ..
> 
> "shuffle your feet"..you will as slowly as posable ..shuffle your feet ..as not enough to let another foot leave the groung..and as not enough to get one foot completely in front of the other ....
> The idea behind this is that your always in contact with the potential as you move you will remain at what ever the potential is beneath you feet ..nothing leaves the ground ..or moves to suddenly into an eare of high to low potential ..or vice versa ..
> 
> #3..First rule of rescue..this is the worst..
> contact has been made your aware of this ..Your buddy drops ..then another and he's screaming ..
> first rule of rescue in a electrical contact situation
> *Do Not Become A Victim*
> 
> Your buddy that dropped ..he's dead ..get over it ..
> Your buddy thats screaming ..he may live ..
> But you wont if you move .. Do not leave your footing ..You can shuffle ..but how are you gonna touch him or aid him ..If the potential is all around ..
> Voice your concern ..and tell him to hang on ..Your no good to him dead ..
> 
> All Clear !!
> How do i know when ..its all clear ..
> 
> The noise from the wires stopped ..nope ..
> 
> Hydro grids are equipped with a self resetting breaker that will pop and reset at a particular time determined by the utility ..the number of times is also determned by the utility ..
> This serves as a means for the grid to blow debris ,,like tree limbs clear ..and protect the sytem ..also it saves on having to send out a crew everytime a tree branch pops the breaker..
> 
> So the all clear ..
> Only an official from an electrical authority would give the all clear ..or the EMS tech's who have explicit contact with the authority ..can they give the all clear ..
> Untill then ..stay where your at .....
> 
> 
> 
> Was that clear enough ..?
> 
> 
> 
> ""



Good points Hoister, don't know how many times I've seen it or heard it at mvc's I've been at with my fire dept, people getting fried like this who have had lines come down over their vehicles thinking the lines were dead when in fact they weren't. Hoister, we were at a tree on wires call last winter, tree still smoking and on fire at the top, hydro guy comes (yeah only 1) in his pick up, takes out the saw and cuts it at the bottom (an old skinny maple) then it dropped off the line, we put out the small fire with just shovelling snow on it. (no sense getting out the hose for that!)


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## ROOTSXROCKS

you have renewed my conviction of staying the hell away from power lines.
Those are some vivid and powerful descriptions, they would make a great script for an animated short film. ( pun intended)

I am definitely with you on the dangers and the potentials the inductive currents sound pretty scary.


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## Hoister

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> you have renewed my conviction of staying the hell away from power lines.
> Those are some vivid and powerful descriptions, they would make a great script for an animated short film. ( pun intended)
> 
> *I am definitely with you on the dangers and the potentials the inductive currents sound pretty scary*.



the last video on this particular beast was shot by an OSHA official who happened to be around the corner and came upon it ..

Long time employee of 20+ years made contact with the wires on a knuckle boom ..not a remote controlled one..he was onyhe ground running the side lever's ..
The short was not enough to trip the breaker's at the station ..he fell beside the outrigger and cooked for 20+ minutes all time lapse video..All the while the swamp-er is on the deck of the truck ..with people screaming for him to get off .....
Be it shock or education ..he didn't move ..

Once the power was of the FD moved in and put the body out ..
In the report a 160+ lb man was reduced to a little more than 40lbs of burnt charcoal..

When working directly with the utility ..there are lugs bolted to the crane to allow the the attachment of grounds ..with the grounding probe's drove in the ground by linemen ..
This is even before I deploy my outriggers..
according to the utility there have been instances where induced current has killed or severly injured men ..It only takes 1 amp to stop the heart ..


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## Hoister

tomtrees58 said:


> not just a crane but the best bucket truck can too tom trees



Yeah your right ..no question ..


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## Hoister

brisawyer said:


> Local co was building a college and swung a crane boom into the wires 23kv I think. Engine one pulled up in time to see the guy climb down the ladder. It was a bad scene guy dead and cooking 40 construction workers screaming do something. All you can do is wait on power co.



Which i think gets back to what i said earlier ..

dont become a victim ...

sad part is ..everyone looks to the Ems to save lives and go in where everyone else is running away ..sometimes ..they just have to stay put ..


----------

