# Looking for Soft Dutchman against the Lean Video



## airbiscuit

A few years ago I saw a video where a logger felled a fairly large tree 180 degrees against the lean. I think it was a soft dutchman cut, but I could be mistaken. It looked like this video, but it turned the tree even more.

 

Anybody have a link?


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## lfnh

hotsaws on you tube used to have some good flicks.
don't know if anything is still there now.


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## Big_Wood




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## Big_Wood

added the vid to your post in an edit i see


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## Woos31

Hotsaw 101 or dangercat are both Jack in that video link, he has many many videos all good. One other video he has called ultra soft Dutchman may be the one you're thinkin of


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## rwoods

airbiscuit said:


> 180 degrees against the lean



Can't be done, I say. Can't be done. Well, not me saying - just thinking back on a long wasted argument over this contention. Ron


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## Woos31

rwoods said:


> Can't be done, I say. Can't be done. Well, not me saying - just thinking back on a long wasted argument over this contention. Ron


Oh yessir you sir it can be, and a thing uh beaty when it does!! I could stare in amazement all damn day!


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## Big_Wood

Woos31 said:


> Hotsaw 101 or dangercat are both Jack in that video link, he has many many videos all good. One other video he has called ultra soft Dutchman may be the one you're thinkin of



ya the ultra soft dutchman vid is the one where he shows how it works. good call. i haven't watched those vids in forever so i just posted the first one.


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## bitzer

rwoods said:


> Can't be done, I say. Can't be done. Well, not me saying - just thinking back on a long wasted argument over this contention. Ron


Physically impossible. 45 degree swing maybe at best. Some old timer said it could never happen or the bloke claiming it could is off his bloody rocker. Wallabys in the belfry sort of thing. Now let's put another shrimp on the Barbie


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## bitzer

airbiscuit said:


> A few years ago I saw a video where a logger felled a fairly large tree 180 degrees against the lean. I think it was a soft dutchman cut, but I could be mistaken. It looked like this video, but it turned the tree even more.
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody have a link?



Spooner huh? Now why would a kid from Spooner want to know about such fancy cuts? I've got a high school buddy that lives up there.


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## Bwildered

Woos31 said:


> Oh yessir you sir it can be, and a thing uh beaty when it does!! I could stare in amazement all damn day!


That's the real David copperfield of logging magic tricks, cutting the tension wood in a tree first, then cutting the compression wood last, then the tree defying gravity & going 180 degrees to the way it was said to be leaning initially. Or it could be just reality where the tree goes within the lean range without the hype!
Thanski


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## Gypo Logger

All dutchman's are either unintentional, perfunctory of just affectatious. Stop making a simple job look difficult.
Somone out there will be impressed regardless of how stupid you are.


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## 056 kid

Bwildered said:


> That's the real David copperfield of logging magic tricks, cutting the tension wood in a tree first, then cutting the compression wood last, then the tree defying gravity & going 180 degrees to the way it was said to be leaning initially. Or it could be just reality where the tree goes within the lean range without the hype!
> Thanski



you've got your wood backwards. compression wood comes out of the low side progressively. As that happens, the tree begins to commit. Once that's done, come around the back right behind the pull side & let her rip. Sometimes 75% or even more of the tree is kerfed before things start to favor desired lay. That's where a few openings here & there make a difference. like a soft Dutchman. And sometimes as soon as you get in the back, the ***** sits back guns straight for you..


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## rwoods

056 kid, good to see you still upright and kicking. Ron


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## madhatte

056 kid said:


> And sometimes as soon as you get in the back, the ***** sits back guns straight for you..



Seems like it's always either on fire or a cottonwood!


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## 2dogs

TED! You're back! Cool. How are you?


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## bitzer

056 kid said:


> you've got your wood backwards. compression wood comes out of the low side progressively. As that happens, the tree begins to commit. Once that's done, come around the back right behind the pull side & let her rip. Sometimes 75% or even more of the tree is kerfed before things start to favor desired lay. That's where a few openings here & there make a difference. like a soft Dutchman. And sometimes as soon as you get in the back, the ***** sits back guns straight for you..


Ted! He and I had a heated debate about a year ago. I gave evidence with pictures from trees I had cut that week. Step by step. He still said it didn't happen and that I was full of it. Hes afraid to try and would rather just say it's not possible to swing a tree. This is the kind of guy who burned people at the stake for claiming the world was round. You should ask him about his broom theory.

You cutting at all?


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## bitzer

This was from a clearcut this spring. You really have to watched the kerfs and how and when they open and close when I'm removing wood here and there to understand what's going on. When the saw kicks in the backcut during one of my last nips at it that's how tight it's sitting back. Too bad I boogered up that second kerf because it makes it a little tougher to see. They all compress and move tho at different times indicating the position of the tree. I wish I had about three angles on this to try and capture all the movement. Seeing what the top is doing is key to understanding. Is it practical? Not really. Can it be done? Yep. I use single kerf Dutchman's everyday in production. They get an uphill leaning tree sidehill without having to wedge. Let the **** storm begin !!!!


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## 056 kid

what do you say Men?
Me, well I ve been pretty sedentary lately. Since I lost the one who brought me here, I've been about as useful as a tit on a boar. God damn pretty much sums it up.


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## Bwildered

airbiscuit said:


> A few years ago I saw a video where a logger felled a fairly large tree 180 degrees against the lean.


Yep that's magic alright. Perhap you believers could explain or show a diagram how the C of G passes from one side of the butt to the other, making a vid showing time wasting at the butt of a tree doesn't really do much except get the gullible in.
Fansk


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## 056 kid

Bwildered said:


> Yep that's magic alright. Perhap you believers could explain or show a diagram how the C of G passes from one side of the butt to the other, making a vid showing time wasting at the butt of a tree doesn't really do much except get the gullible in.
> Fansk




Whats magic? A tree is round, 360 degrees. Roll that joker around the stump, turn it. Or beat your brains out, I won't stop you!


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## Bwildered

056 kid said:


> Whats magic? A tree is round, 360 degrees. Roll that joker around the stump, turn it. Or beat your brains out, I won't stop you!


Thats not much of an explanation, can you do a little better to try & convert a non believer. At least Penn & Teller reveal how the magic is done!
Tanks


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## 056 kid

No I can't; It's best if you just go ahead & figure it out on your own..


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## Bwildered

056 kid said:


> No I can't; It's best if you just go ahead & figure it out on your own..


I heard the impossible takes a little longer! It might take me a while.
Fanks


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## 056 kid

Not 180, not soft either but it turned into the face just fine..


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## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> Yep that's magic alright. Perhap you believers could explain or show a diagram how the C of G passes from one side of the butt to the other, making a vid showing time wasting at the butt of a tree doesn't really do much except get the gullible in.
> Fansk


Watch the kerfs closing and opening that will show you where the tree is leaning, pretty simple really. 

Wasting time at the stump! Ha! I cut more in a week than you do all year. Beating wedges all day is wasting time and your body. Fatigue and time are your biggest enemies when busheling. 

Maybe you should really shut your yap and give it a try once


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## bitzer

056 kid said:


> what do you say Men?
> Me, well I ve been pretty sedentary lately. Since I lost the one who brought me here, I've been about as useful as a tit on a boar. God damn pretty much sums it up.


Sorry to hear that Ted. My condolences.


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## northmanlogging

I must be really bored...

took someone off ignore to connect the dots on this thread, the name fits by the way.


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## 056 kid

Oh NO!! could it be? The elusive HBRN? I'm friggin bored too....


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## Skeans

I'll put my two cents in take it or leave it, there's times and places for a swinging dutchman there's also time you have to use wedges or a jack for back leaners perfect example is a line or a power line.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## HuskStihl

This tree was standing on the east side of a little dry creek and leaning west with the crown over the creek. Using a soft Dutch combined with a Siz, the entire crown landed on the east side (where my burn-pile is). The video makes it clear I can't really even handle a saw. I routinely can turn small trees leaning out over my fence lines back onto my side, and I certainly ain't no pro.


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## northmanlogging

post more vids john... good stuff.

By the way T shirts are finally on their way again if you still want one... (theoretically anyway, its been a week or two waiting on a call)


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## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Watch the kerfs closing and opening that will show you where the tree is leaning, pretty simple really.
> 
> Wasting time at the stump! Ha! I cut more in a week than you do all year. Beating wedges all day is wasting time and your body. Fatigue and time are your biggest enemies when busheling.
> 
> Maybe you should really shut your yap and give it a try once


Come on, surely you with your college edumacation can do a rough diagram with a plan & elevation of how the c of g of a leaning tree can pass from one side to the other of the butt with only cutting, to another college educated person, with units done in surveying & engineering, sitting on the front row of the magic show doesn't make it anymore believable for me, so your vids & the others are just entertainment at best, I run my own sawmill so these days I only cut & snig 20m3 in an afternoon a week to keep me busy, which is far from the days of getting 60m3 in 8 hrs on the landing which I used to do, I'll leave the rooting bars experiments for when I get fat, cant swing an axe to drive in a wedge a few times & can afford it. Thansk


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## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> Come on, surely you with your college edumacation can do a rough diagram with a plan & elevation of how the c of g of a leaning tree can pass from one side to the other of the butt with only cutting, to another college educated person, with units done in surveying & engineering, sitting on the front row of the magic show doesn't make it anymore believable for me, so your vids & the others are just entertainment at best, I run my own sawmill so these days I only cut & snig 20m3 in an afternoon a week to keep me busy, which is far from the days of getting 60m3 in 8 hrs on the landing which I used to do, I'll leave the rooting bars experiments for when I get fat, cant swing an axe to drive in a wedge a few times & can afford it. Thansk


 I've always enjoyed a heated debate and when I do get into it I am rarely wrong. If you can't see what's going on with the kerfs opening and closing I'm not sure what to tell you. It's made as plain and simple as elementary math.


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## bitzer

Skeans said:


> I'll put my two cents in take it or leave it, there's times and places for a swinging dutchman there's also time you have to use wedges or a jack for back leaners perfect example is a line or a power line.
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


That's right on man. Wedge in real close timber too when there is no room for the tree to lean out to come around on the swing. Property lines, etc.


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## bitzer

HuskStihl said:


> This tree was standing on the east side of a little dry creek and leaning west with the crown over the creek. Using a soft Dutch combined with a Siz, the entire crown landed on the east side (where my burn-pile is). The video makes it clear I can't really even handle a saw. I routinely can turn small trees leaning out over my fence lines back onto my side, and I certainly ain't no pro.



Nice work Jon. How would you describe the feeling you get when you watch one lean out, then swing around and hit the intended lay just like you planned?


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## bitzer

northmanlogging said:


> post more vids john... good stuff.
> 
> By the way T shirts are finally on their way again if you still want one... (theoretically anyway, its been a week or two waiting on a call)


T-shirts?


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## bitzer

Clearly we are all bored. Otherwise I never would have posted that video. Need to shake things up with Reggie every once in a while. Nothing serious. Only funnin.


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## hseII

bitzer said:


> Clearly we are all bored. Otherwise I never would have posted that video. Need to shake things up with Reggie every once in a while. Nothing serious. Only funnin.



What area do you work?


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## KiwiBro

In blue gum (most brittle fibres I've encountered...so far) the difference between initiating movement and breaking tension wood is way too narrow for plebs like me. The fence in the background is proof that luck ain't all bad all the time.


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## HuskStihl

bitzer said:


> Nice work Jon. How would you describe the feeling you get when you watch one lean out, then swing around and hit the intended lay just like you planned?


That feeling you get when you just know there will be a bunch of fence repair in u'r immediate future, but then the fence fairy magically pushes that tree away


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## northmanlogging

bitzer said:


> T-shirts?


 husk stihl expressed interest in getting a northman logging shirt awhile ago (like years) just haven't been able to get them made up yet, bad deals, no time, no money, more bad deals... what is it about T shirt folks just can't get what you paid them for done in like less then 6 months?


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## bitzer

hseII said:


> What area do you work?


That place between reality and fantasy. I believe Nietzsche described it best in Beyond Good and Evil. Or maybe it was Yoda? "Do or do not, there is no try."


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## bitzer

KiwiBro said:


> In blue gum (most brittle fibres I've encountered...so far) the difference between initiating movement to breaking tension wood is way too narrow for plebs like me to be playing in. That still standing fence in the background is proof that luck ain't all bad all the time.
> View attachment 511032


Tough to get em moving on flat ground.


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## bitzer

HuskStihl said:


> That feeling you get when you just know there will be a bunch of fence repair in u'r immediate future, but then the fence fairy magically pushes that tree away


Kind of like when your wife gives you that little look and you think- my God tonight's the night?


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## madhatte

HuskStihl said:


> I routinely can turn small trees leaning out over my fence lines back onto my side, and I certainly ain't no pro.



Look, if it sets down on your bar, it tells you the top is moving. In this context, pinched is expected... so long as it lets loose a couple of seconds later as its momentum moves around to the face.


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## bitzer

northmanlogging said:


> what is it about T shirt folks just can't get what you paid them for done in like less then 6 months?



Drugs? Try shutterfly. They'll have whatever you want on a shirt and back to you in 5-10 buisness days. My wife had one printed out with my biz name and the slogan "Real Good Hardwood" on it.


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## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> the way T shirts are finally on their way again if you still want one...



Link, por favor


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## hseII

bitzer said:


> That place between reality and fantasy. I believe Nietzsche described it best in Beyond Good and Evil. Or maybe it was Yoda? "Do or do not, there is no try."



Where are you geographically, twinkle toes?


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## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> I've always enjoyed a heated debate and when I do get into it I am rarely wrong. If you can't see what's going on with the kerfs opening and closing I'm not sure what to tell you. It's made as plain and simple as elementary math.


Here you go, show us your cuts to get that tree to go 180' to the lean.
Don't be shy, anybody can have a go as well, the worst thing that can happen is an imaginary pinched bar or some imaginary egg on the face.
Thansk


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## Bwildered

KiwiBro said:


> In blue gum (most brittle fibres I've encountered...so far) the difference between initiating movement and breaking tension wood is way too narrow for plebs like me. The fence in the background is proof that luck ain't all bad all the time.
> View attachment 511032


Keep us posted when you pinch & bend a bar, just hang onto the starter cord & you should be able to safely save the saw head while getting away from the butt a little, those blue gums have massive big dead branches that can come straight down like spears real quick.
Thansk


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## HuskStihl

northmanlogging said:


> post more vids john... good stuff.
> 
> By the way T shirts are finally on their way again if you still want one... (theoretically anyway, its been a week or two waiting on a call)


Uh....like, ya I want one!


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## northmanlogging

bitzer said:


> Kind of like when your wife gives you that little look and you think- my God tonight's the night?



dude isn't 18 kids enough...



madhatte said:


> Link, por favor



Huh? I'ma dummy? These are mostly being made up for the logging, similar to the last ones but a little different, I have thought about building up some custom pro logging sarcastic type stuff fer selling and what not, just not that ambitious yet.


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## bitzer

hseII said:


> Where are you geographically, twinkle toes?


I got it pard. SE WI. I cut 99.9% hardwood.


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## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> Here you go, show us your cuts to get that tree to go 180' to the lean.
> Don't be shy, anybody can have a go as well, the worst thing that can happen is an imaginary pinched bar or some imaginary egg on the face.
> Thansk


Drawings don't have wind, slope, root swells for pull wood, limb wieght, other trees, etc. You also didn't include species of tree and you drew a conifer which I rarely ever cut and nothing of size if I do. Unfortunately I've given you the info visually through video. A picture is worth a thousand words so a video is worth a million. Note the wedge I put in the kerf just to keep it open. Without that I would have lost the tree or at this very least not have been able to saw anything from the back. 2D diagrams don't always equate real world experience. Especially in cutting timber.


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## bitzer

northmanlogging said:


> dude isn't 18 kids enough...


 
Ha! That problem has been taken care of...


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## 2dogs

I had to let bewildered off my ignore list chain for a few minutes to help answer his questions.

First off dude I don't think you are reading all the words. The tree DOES NOT snap back 180 degrees and fall opposite the lean. Any experienced sawyer knows that. The kerfs and hinge are all intended to move the tree in very small increments just like a wedge does. Any experienced sawyer knows that. The tension wood is cut a little bit at a time as is the hinge. The tension wood is cut low and the sawyer is watching the kerfs close a little as each is cut. The hinge is chased leaving it thicker near the tension wood which is now coming under compression. What I think you are missing completely (and has been stated here) is that the tree is "ROLLING" (weight shifting ever so slowly) toward the lay. The top of the tree is traveling in a slight arc.

Picture a good sawyer sawing lean into the tree this way to swing it 45 degrees, no more. That may help you understand what is happening.


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## 2dogs

BTW there are many times when I have wedged a tree and then stood back for a minute or too to let the force exerted by the wedge do its work. Fibers are popping, maybe I drive the wedge a bit more, maybe I tickle the hinge or nip the corners more. All of this takes time to work, but it does work. If I just bashed the wedge bad things can happen.


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## HuskStihl

northmanlogging said:


> dude isn't 18 kids enough....


Speaking of kids, do y'all think I should get a paternity test? My 5'10" 130lb 14 year old handles the 385 better than his old man!


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## northmanlogging

well the wifey does start all yer saws so perhaps he gets it from her?


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## hseII

bitzer said:


> I got it pard. SE WI. I cut 99.9% hardwood.



I know: that's what I'm around the most. 

That's a long way from here though. [emoji20]


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## Bwildered

2dogs said:


> I had to let bewildered off my ignore list chain for a few minutes to help answer his questions.
> 
> First off dude I don't think you are reading all the words. The tree DOES NOT snap back 180 degrees and fall opposite the lean. Any experienced sawyer knows that. The kerfs and hinge are all intended to move the tree in very small increments just like a wedge does. Any experienced sawyer knows that. The tension wood is cut a little bit at a time as is the hinge. The tension wood is cut low and the sawyer is watching the kerfs close a little as each is cut. The hinge is chased leaving it thicker near the tension wood which is now coming under compression. What I think you are missing completely (and has been stated here) is that the tree is "ROLLING" (weight shifting ever so slowly) toward the lay. The top of the tree is traveling in a slight arc.
> 
> Picture a good sawyer sawing lean into the tree this way to swing it 45 degrees, no more. That may help you understand what is happening.


Dudette all you have to do is show us your cuts to get it to fall 180' to the lean..
Fankinski


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## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Drawings don't have wind, slope, root swells for pull wood, limb wieght, other trees, etc. You also didn't include species of tree and you drew a conifer which I rarely ever cut and nothing of size if I do. Unfortunately I've given you the info visually through video. A picture is worth a thousand words so a video is worth a million. Note the wedge I put in the kerf just to keep it open. Without that I would have lost the tree or at this very least not have been able to saw anything from the back. 2D diagrams don't always equate real world experience. Especially in cutting timber.


You can add in all those frilly bits if it makes you happy, except the wind, but just show us your cuts that can make it happen & fall completely opposite to the lean.
Transki


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## bitzer

Wait a minute. I forgot you're down under. Trees fall the opposite way down there. Kind of like your toilets flush counter clockwise.


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## 2dogs

I have never made a tree fall 180 degrees from it lean. The best I've done is a little more than 90, like maybe 120 degrees. I don't have the skill needed and nowadays I fall mostly dead or sick trees. I don't think a dead or brittle tree with sap in the butt will be able to be steered anything like the tree in the video.

95% 0f the time I use some form of a Humboldt.


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## northmanlogging

SlowP posted a vid years ago a couple fellers walked a tree 180, they used wedges, but it was mostly from cutting, saw a little let it sag, saw a little more etc until it worked its way around to where they wanted it.


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## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> SlowP posted a vid years ago a couple fellers walked a tree 180, they used wedges, but it was mostly from cutting, saw a little let it sag, saw a little more etc until it worked its way around to where they wanted it.


It's all about timing and size as well as the place you're in plus the quality, are you going to swing a big long pole like an export log tree?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## northmanlogging

swing export sticks on the regular, just not my first choice with em. Its all about keeping things away from the high value targets and where my little skidder can still get to em.


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## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> swing export sticks on the regular, just not my first choice with em. Its all about keeping things away from the high value targets and where my little skidder can still get to em.


You know what I'm saying would you swing a pole though?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## northmanlogging

A telephone pole? Probably not, but then I probably wouldn't need to, the pole trees tend to grow pretty straight without much lean, if they do lean you try to go with the lean, otherwise you wan't to be very accurate with a pole tree, give er a nice soft landing, which is harder then it looks.


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## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> A telephone pole? Probably not, but then I probably wouldn't need to, the pole trees tend to grow pretty straight without much lean, if they do lean you try to go with the lean, otherwise you wan't to be very accurate with a pole tree, give er a nice soft landing, which is harder then it looks.


I've done poles with poles with hook in the butts over 125 feet long you can swing them but most times it's a jack job to save your butt.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Wait a minute. I forgot you're down under. Trees fall the opposite way down there. Kind of like your toilets flush counter clockwise.


And the crows fly backwards to keep the dust out of their eyes.
Still in the dark about the legendary soft Dutchman trickery though.
Thansk


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## northmanlogging

Bwildered said:


> And the crows fly backwards to keep the dust out of their eyes.
> Still in the dark about the legendary soft Dutchman trickery though.
> Thansk



Look if you don't get it by now you never will, try it, it does work. Otherwise come up with something productive cause otherwise yer just kind of annoying and not worth the time it takes to give a ****.


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## Bwildered

northmanlogging said:


> Look if you don't get it by now you never will, try it, it does work. Otherwise come up with something productive cause otherwise yer just kind of annoying and not worth the time it takes to give a ****.


It's still adding up to a load of rubbish & not one of you can explain it, even with a supplied diagram to get you started.
No need to throw a tantrum, just come up with simple explanations of how it can mechanically happen, some videos of saw cuts closing on the compression side of the butt of the tree only shows that it only fell within the range of the lean direction.
Thanski


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## bnmc98

Its like a spiral staircase. Each step is a cut (only you don't use as many cuts as there are stairs on one) As the tree compresses on the first stair it is forced by gravity toward the second cut and collapses the kerfs in a uniform way around the staircase. your holding wood is in the back where you are cutting from and it hinges around that like the pole in the middle of the staircase.
It works.
I use it all the time especially on steep ground where you have an uphill lean to the tree, to get them to lay pointing down so you can slide em out with chokers from up top. tough to get 180 for me but 135 ish is pretty common (green wood)
Might want to trust some of these guys they know what they are talking about.


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## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> Its like a spiral staircase. Each step is a cut (only you don't use as many cuts as there are stairs on one) As the tree compresses on the first stair it is forced by gravity toward the second cut and collapses the kerfs in a uniform way around the staircase. your holding wood is in the back where you are cutting from and it hinges around that like the pole in the middle of the staircase.
> It works.
> I use it all the time especially on steep ground where you have an uphill lean to the tree, to get them to lay pointing down so you can slide em out with chokers from up top. tough to get 180 for me but 135 ish is pretty common (green wood)
> Might want to trust some of these guys. People who don't learn to trust die lonely.


Put pen to paper & show us how its cut & done then, that's each cut showing what the tree does for each cut & how it can move the C of G to the opposite side of the stump, changing the tension wood on the high side of the lean into compression wood. Trusting just the say from some unknowns on an outlawed falling method sounds like a good recipe for disaster.
Tranks


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## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> Put pen to paper & show us how its cut & done then, that's each cut showing what the tree does for each cut & how it can move the C of G to the opposite side of the stump, changing the tension wood on the high side of the lean into compression wood. Trusting just the say from some unknowns on an outlawed falling method sounds like a good recipe for disaster.
> Tranks



Its not "US". Its "You"
"You" wanted the explanation
We already know how to do it.
I owe you nothing
If you really wanted to know how to do it, you would do like the rest of the world and experiment with what you have been told and figure it out on your own.
Or you could fly up here and I can mentor you for $100 an hour.


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## rwoods

bnmc98, 

I wasted too much of my life arguing about this before with my friend from downunder so I will not join in again beyond suggesting that he buy a box of dominoes and experiment with incremental falling - "defying" gravity in elevation and direction. He knows that as an object moves so does its center of gravity. Bwildered is plenty smart. I believe he is just pulling some chains here to watch one's COG change. 

Ron


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## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> Its not "US". Its "You"
> "You" wanted the explanation
> We already know how to do it.
> I owe you nothing
> If you really wanted to know how to do it, you would do like the rest of the world and experiment with what you have been told and figure it out on your own.
> Or you could fly up here and I can mentor you for $100 an hour.


If you can't sensibly explain your case, there's no need to rabbit on about it with everything except what has been asked for.
thansk


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## Bwildered

rwoods said:


> bnmc98,
> 
> I wasted too much of my life arguing about this before with my friend from downunder so I will not join in again beyond suggesting that he buy a box of dominoes and experiment with incremental falling - "defying" gravity in elevation and direction. He knows that as an object moves so does its center of gravity. Bwildered is plenty smart. I believe he is just pulling some chains here to watch one's COG change.
> 
> Ron



I wouldn't say I was that clever, just clever enough to know the difference between magic & reality.
Tanks


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> If you can't sensibly explain your case, there's no need to rabbit on about it with everything except what has been asked for.
> thansk



The case has been sensibly explained more times than I care to count: if you choose not to see what is being explained, well, that's your problem.

If you want to listen, the folks that have posted in this thread will explain.

You do not want to hear anything that defies your understanding. 

You ask for a drawing when someone shared a video: how dense can you be?


----------



## bitzer

Reggie- The only reason you want an explanation step by step is to argue with each step. A year ago I gave you pictures of two different trees that I had cut that week with a step by step. The video I posted here was actually for another site, but I wanted to rile you up again because I was bored. I know you'll never try it and you'll never believe me. I actually explain it in the video as well. Is 180 degrees from the lean possible? No. 179 degrees is tho. All you need is that little extra to get it moving in the right direction. The rest is pretty simple. Pre- sawing lean into the tree. If I had cut that tree off the stump it would have went straight back from where I put it. That's a fact only I know for sure.

The soft Dutch is the opposite of wedging really. When lifting with a wedge you move the top so many feet. When the butt compresses the kerf the top moves by so many feet. Each kerf is 3/8". Three kerfs is 1 1/8". How many feet does a top move when wedged up 1 1/8"? There are so many factors involving swinging trees it can not be possibly explained other than in the simplest terms. Anymore than that can change the result because every tree is different. You know all this already because I've told you. It's time for you to experiment now. Your science teacher can only hold your hand for so long in lab. I learned by trying. In fact other than some light reading and a few tips from pros on here I'm self taught. You're ready Reggie. It's time.


----------



## northmanlogging

Part one, sort of showing the cuts and the layout, video really doesn't do real world view much justice, I try to explain, but well, I don't talk real good anyway... and the saw is sorta loud... also dropped the phone and shut the vid off so it necessarily ended up being 2 vids first one shows most of the cuts, second one is just the back cut.

Granted this one only went about 95-100 deg it still shows how it works, gradually change the lean, and walk it around. Its not that difficult to comprehend.



I'll load the second vid after its done processing, takes a little while.


----------



## northmanlogging

and the finale...
enjoy


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> If you can't sensibly explain your case, there's no need to rabbit on about it with everything except what has been asked for.
> thansk


I used a very sensible analogy
Not my fault if you are a closed book to anything but your way. 



Bwildered said:


> I wouldn't say I was that clever, just clever enough to know the difference between magic & reality.
> Tanks


Ah yes
The patented "Logical Person" answer
Most times reality has very little to do with what we believe is real, but rather, what really is real.
The cut is real because people do it. It is actually illogical for you to think it can't be done. Unless we have all eaten a weird red pill and found ourselves in a room subconsciously with each other where they brainwashed us by putting similar fake experiences in our minds that we could all come together on AS and share our delusions.
Because you know that there is a conspiracy against the ever so popular site of AS to psych people out of reality.

I think what is more real and not magical is that you are an argumentative un-open person who gets a kick out of strife. That being the case, I will never waste my time (which is money) on providing you an exact diagram and video the exact way you want it. Unless its on your dime. 
so show some initiative of your own on figuring it out


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> The case has been sensibly explained more times than I care to count: if you choose not to see what is being explained, well, that's your problem.
> 
> If you want to listen, the folks that have posted in this thread will explain.
> 
> You do not want to hear anything that defies your understanding.
> 
> You ask for a drawing when someone shared a video: how dense can you be?


A drawing can & will explain it throughly to anybody, obviously Im not as dense as you to realise it. The only way a video has any more legitimacy is if the tree is straight, evenly weighted & referenced to a plum bob for its lean.
Fanski


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## Bwildered

You roosters could have drawn your method ten times over in the time it took you to write all that to avoid it.
Tanks


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> You roosters could have drawn your method ten times over in the time it took you to write all that to avoid it.
> Tanks



Um... Logger here...
Takes a long time to get something like that on the computer.
But, I can sure run my mouth as well as my saw.


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> Um... Logger here...
> Takes a long time to get something like that on the computer.
> But, I can sure run my mouth as well as my saw.


I remarkably found 2 minutes of my day & a scrap of paper to hand draw the basis for you guys to add in your bits, showing how you make it possible. Is it really that hard or complex that it defies this explaination.
Thansk


----------



## Skeans

Bwildered said:


> I remarkably found 2 minutes of my day & a scrap of paper to hand draw the basis for you guys to add in your bits, showing how you make it possible. Is it really that hard or complex that it defies this explaination.
> Thansk


Here you go 
Now go and try it like the rest of us have.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## madhatte

Yo Northman -- well done! I never thought to throw a soft dutch and a siz on the same stump but damned if it didn't work out just right! For those of you not in the know, alders are notoriously brittle and whippy and not easy to swing.

Here's me a few years ago slipping a similar alder into a similar hole but I used a hard dutch rather than a soft dutch and only swung it about half as far. The bore was because I was not at all confident that it wasn't gonna barberchair on me so I put all my effort into the face and hinge and to hell with saving out. I've learned a few things since and wouldn't bore it that way now but the facts are the same -- alder is tricky and you need to be careful with it.


----------



## Skeans

madhatte said:


> Yo Northman -- well done! I never thought to throw a soft dutch and a siz on the same stump but damned if it didn't work out just right! For those of you not in the know, alders are notoriously brittle and whippy and not easy to swing.
> 
> Here's me a few years ago slipping a similar alder into a similar hole but I used a hard dutch rahter than a soft dutch and only swung it a bout half as far. The bore was because I was not at all confident that it wasn't gonna barberchair on me so I put all my effort into the face and hinge and to hell with saving out. I've learned a few things since and wouldn't bore it that way now but the facts are the same -- alder is tricky and you need to be careful with it.



That's half the fun of big heavy alder is the pucker factor and if you look at them wrong they'll come get you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## madhatte

They *are* fun, aren't they?


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## northmanlogging

The siz really shines on an alder, whenever possible I'll fall em sideways to their lean anyway, but you tend to loose em about halfway over, put a siz in and it will usually go most of the way to your gun, but be off by how ever far its leaning, and alders just don't grow straight. Throw some soft dutch or even a small dutch in and it will correct it enough to compensate for the lean, then its just a matter of hanging out at the stump and walking it around, I've had a couple of them go much much farther then I intended them to go, luckily its never been near anything real important, but it can break a stick at times or totally **** up yer lay, but its all usually better then hitting what you didn't wan't to hit.


----------



## Skeans

madhatte said:


> They *are* fun, aren't they?


Love the pay from them but could do without the chair factor on the steep ground sometimes but they will keep your 100 yard dash right there with the high school kids.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## northmanlogging

First solo logging job was all alder, and it seems that folks just hate them around here, they are a bit of a weed, so I cut quite a fair bit of alder for a PNW soft wood guy... pays about the same as Doug Fir right now as well.


----------



## northmanlogging

Skeans said:


> Love the pay from them but could do without the chair factor on the steep ground sometimes but they will keep your 100 yard dash right there with the high school kids.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



One of the few trees I'll consider a bore cut on... them sideways bastards that snake their way through the canopy... Though I prefer a coos for most of em if they are leaning hard I'll bore em or sometimes bore the guts like a reverse Coos


----------



## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> First solo logging job was all alder, and it seems that folks just hate them around here, they are a bit of a weed, so I cut quite a fair bit of alder for a PNW soft wood guy... pays about the same as Doug Fir right now as well.


We don't hate the pay from them but sure hate where they grow and how they grow, we're always wishing it was a fir or a cedar patch.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> One of the few trees I'll consider a bore cut on... them sideways bastards that snake their way through the canopy... Though I prefer a coos for most of em if they are leaning hard I'll bore em or sometimes bore the guts like a reverse Coos


My least favorite ones are the ones you have to climb up because they have multiple stems and the root tree is going out at an angle, never fails that's when you need a trick like a soft face or a siz.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> One of the few trees I'll consider a bore cut on... them sideways bastards that snake their way through the canopy... Though I prefer a coos for most of em if they are leaning hard I'll bore em or sometimes bore the guts like a reverse Coos



Yeah, see, that cut there I posted was a hybrid hard dutch/bore/coos because that was what I knew how to do at the time. Gonna hafta try that soft dutch/siz, looks like just the ticket for alders of that size. Ain't too proud to learn a new trick!


----------



## madhatte

Skeans said:


> We don't hate the pay from them but sure hate where they grow and how they grow, we're always wishing it was a fir or a cedar patch.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



Fir is so forgiving! Those long, strong fibers are the best.


----------



## Skeans

madhatte said:


> Fir is so forgiving! Those long, strong fibers are the best.


Nothing like being able to tickle of the hinge on a 4 or 5 foot fir to almost nothing, you try that with an alder you'll pay dearly sometimes.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## northmanlogging

Looking forward to friday... have a pile of fat tall fir that need to be shortened and re-stacked elsewhere... Should get a load out of 5-6 trees maybe a 8-9 log load... which is pretty damn good for a dumb gyppo these days.


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## madhatte

Here's a hickory of some sort that I cut inside the fence following an ice storm. That damn thing wouldn't go over! I had 4 wedges stacked and the kerf was like 3 inches tall and the hinge a half an inch or less and the fibers just kept holding on, and on and on... finally, when it went over, it was like slow motion. I realized then why the east coast guys so often gut the hearts. That woulda made this guy way easier to tip.







Then there's this guy -- he's a little fir, maybe 20" on the butt, but I turned him just over 180 degrees.






I gotta start taking pictures of my work again. I have gotten out of the habit.


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> Um... Logger here...
> Takes a long time to get something like that on the computer.
> But, I can sure run my mouth as well as my saw.


Does that mean you've cut off both your opposing thumbs in a logging accident & can't hold a pen or pencil anymore, or was it was a really big accident & you can now only touch type with a stick in your mouth which has a rubber ball on the end of it? If any of the above you're obviously excused.
Thanski


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## hseII

Bwildered said:


> Does that mean you've cut off both your opposing thumbs in a logging accident & can't hold a pen or pencil anymore, or was it was a really big accident & you can now only touch type with a stick in your mouth which has a rubber ball on the end of it? If any of the above you're obviously excused.
> Thanski



You ate a lot of Lead based paint as a child, didn't you?


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> You ate a lot of Lead based paint as a child, didn't you?


Not as much as you roosters it seems! I can still draw a circle & a tree!
Thankinski


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> Not as much as you roosters it seems! I can still draw!
> Thankinski



They didn't have lead based paint when I was a kid. 

I could never draw: I guess I was too busy trying to do things in real life. [emoji6]


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## Bwildered

hseII said:


> They didn't have lead based paint when I was a kid.
> 
> I could never draw: I guess I was too busy trying to do things in real life. [emoji6]


Same here, it must have been on the asbestos sheets in the old house we used to eat!
They used to round us up & make sure we went to school here for at least 10 years, before sending the hard cases to prison!
Transki


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## Bwildered

Skeans said:


> Here you go
> Now go and try it like the rest of us have.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



It's funny how this chap will show a leaning tree with a plumb bob but somehow never does it when doing a ultra soft Dutchman falling 180 to the lean, with that tree the centre of gravity had to be past the line of hinge wood in the direction of the fall, (it only has to millimetres & not necessarily on the stump either ) for it to fall in that direction, nothing on this earth can defy gravity alone & go uphill against gravity. No wonder you roosters are fluffing up your feathers having trouble drawing it! It's just not possible.
Transinski


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## northmanlogging

Ya keep asking for a drawing, but the deal is taint none of us cartoonists, a pencil sketch doesn't show the movement, we can draw lines on a circle until your fingers bleed, but it doesn't show the movement. It truly is something you're just going to have to try. It's not particularly any more dangerous then falling any other tree, yer just using gravity to steer it a little, but since yer a stubborn **** with blinders on yer probably never going to try it anyway. Or maybe yer just a scaredy cat?


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## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> Ya keep asking for a drawing, but the deal is taint none of us cartoonists, a pencil sketch doesn't show the movement, we can draw lines on a circle until your fingers bleed, but it doesn't show the movement. It truly is something you're just going to have to try. It's not particularly any more dangerous then falling any other tree, yer just using gravity to steer it a little, but since yer a stubborn **** with blinders on yer probably never going to try it anyway. Or maybe yer just a scaredy cat?


Almost reminds me of an engineer if they can't see how it can happen unless it's drawn for them.

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## bigbarf48

What's the difference between a hard and soft Dutch?


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## Skeans

bigbarf48 said:


> What's the difference between a hard and soft Dutch?


Hard Dutchman is a single cut that will stall out the motion, where as a soft always the butt to rotate as the relief cuts in the face cut compress.

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## Bwildered

northmanlogging said:


> Ya keep asking for a drawing, but the deal is taint none of us cartoonists, a pencil sketch doesn't show the movement, we can draw lines on a circle until your fingers bleed, but it doesn't show the movement. It truly is something you're just going to have to try. It's not particularly any more dangerous then falling any other tree, yer just using gravity to steer it a little, but since yer a stubborn **** with blinders on yer probably never going to try it anyway. Or maybe yer just a scaredy cat?


I think I'm starting to get where you fellows are getting mixed up, in reality a fairly perpendicular tree with a minute lean ( C of G on the stump) could be sent nearly 90' either way from the lean, that's a falling range of nearly 180', but still at least 90' anywhere near going against the lean.
Tanks


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## Bwildered

Skeans said:


> Almost reminds me of an engineer if they can't see how it can happen unless it's drawn for them.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


It's funny how an engineer could calculate the trajectory of lunar rocket with astounding accuracy & show the shift of C of G at any point in its trajectory traveling past the moon or earth! its just physics & gravity & fully explainable visually or mathematically.
Thanski


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## Skeans

Bwildered said:


> It's funny how an engineer could calculate the trajectory of lunar rocket with astounding accuracy & show the shift of C of G at any point in its trajectory traveling past the moon or earth! its just physics & gravity & fully explainable visually or mathematically.
> Thanski


Exactly we're just using gravity to help us, yes they may not be a full 180 degrees back but anything to help from wedging is a good thing in my book.

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## Skeans

Another point is you keep implying it's always used but it's just a tool to make our lives easier if you don't get how it works that's fine. Now if you really have something special or on a line that's 180 and set back good I'm willing to bet you're going to jack it or beat your guts out correct?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Bwildered

Skeans said:


> Exactly we're just using gravity to help us, yes they may not be a full 180 degrees back but anything to help from wedging is a good thing in my book.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


A tree cannot fall uphill (so to speak) unassisted against the gravity of its lean, that's why we use wedges or other mechanical means.
Fanks


----------



## Bwildered

Skeans said:


> Another point is you keep implying it's always used but it's just a tool to make our lives easier if you don't get how it works that's fine. Now if you really have something special or on a line that's 180 and set back good I'm willing to bet you're going to jack it or beat your guts out correct?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


I'm not implying how often or where it's used, just that it's an impossibility that a tree can fall uphill ( so to speak) against the gravity of its lean with just cutting.
If a tree looks like it's leaning in a direction but actually falls the other way, just means the C of G was never where it was assumed to be & gravity always will pull the tree in the direction that the C of G actually was. A pool ball will always run downhill to the lowest side of a table, it can never run to the high side as gravity will never allow it. The table doesn't touch the face of the under C of G axis of the ball so it has tiny moment of inertia propelling it, this is the same principle as a falling tree. Anywhere between the C of G & the stump of the tree is uphill in the eyes of gravity with hinge allowing a certain amount of movement along the line between the 2. The more distance between the 2 dictates how much direction the tree can deviate off that line before the hinge tears out & has no influence anymore.
Thansk


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## madhatte

hseII said:


> You ate a lot of Lead based paint as a child, didn't you?



You mean "Wall Candy"?



Bwildered said:


> If a tree looks like it's leaning in a direction but actually falls the other way, just means the C of G was never where it was assumed to be & gravity always will pull the tree in the direction that the C of G actually was.



No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about using gravity to get it moving, and offset hingewood to hold it on the stump as it swings around, past its C/G, to a direction which is not where it was originally leaning.


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## KiwiBro

Hey B. They like you.


----------



## Woos31

madhatte said:


> You mean "Wall Candy"?
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about using gravity to get it moving, and offset hingewood to hold it on the stump as it swings around, past its C/G, to a direction which is not where it was originally leaning.


Wow...........I've been away from here awhile and ready through this I can see were my comment about swinging a tree 180 or whatever a guy needs to the lean as black magic was just an expression to the "trickery" with relief cuts to allow the tree to move and begin the process of the swing. The folks who know and use this I'm not showing or telling anything. Those that say may about a tree going straight over backward against the lean without Jack's or winches are correct, cuts and gravity will not let that happen. Now...................like the videos have shown...........the action of the tree going 180 to the lean is a swing made possible by over cutting the far side of a traditional horizontal cut to establish where the hinge will be, say by another 45 degrees +/- depending on what the faller needs on the farthest 1/3rd +/- the diameter of the tree from the side you're on. Back out and make a second relief cut around 1/2" lower than the first and not as deep giving the spiral staircase affect someone mentioned earlier, now the extra kerfs that have been put on the far side let the tree start moving toward the far side as you release the far side wood first in the back cut and work the back cut around to near side more of the weight will swing around the far side and role down the kerfs or steps however is easier to visualize as it gains momentum in the swing you release more and more of back cut so holding wood is near side making the tree pull around the stump 90 to 180 degrees of the lean, whichever the faller desires for the situation. The reason nobody drew a picture in my opinion is because this isn't recommended for all people to try and nobody including myself want to encourage anyone to go out and get in an accident. But since video wasn't good enough there ya go for the still non-believers, I can't draw worth a **** either so that's the best explaination I can muster. I feel like the misunderstanding is a tree can't physically fall 180 to the lean facing it up and putting a back cut in without a Jack or winch, is that what you're trying to get us to understand bwildered? Cuz you're correct if that's what you're meaning in your argument, what the others are saying is the forces being relieved to the extra cuts and physics of the scenario are allowing the tree to turn and swing 180 give or take from the lean by distributing its weight elsewhere from the natural lean. Also why everyone's arguing each swing is different and you can't draw in one picture what all is taking place for this swing to happen without a picture book. If drawing is still required I can't help, and suggest like others have to head out and try some different things and see what's possible. Nothing against anyone just another approach of explanation and with that said if any of it makes any sorta sense or not you all will let me know haha, and those that may go try anything mentioned please cut safe


----------



## Woos31

Oh and madhatte that wasn't directed at you either pard, I pushed wrong button and thought it was a general reply LOL


----------



## Bwildered

KiwiBro said:


> Hey B. They like you.


A lot of them have gone quiet though after my last explanation, some light bulbs may have flickered out there.
Tanski


----------



## Bwildered

Woos31 said:


> Wow...........I've been away from here awhile and ready through this I can see were my comment about swinging a tree 180 or whatever a guy needs to the lean as black magic was just an expression to the "trickery" with relief cuts to allow the tree to move and begin the process of the swing. The folks who know and use this I'm not showing or telling anything. Those that say may about a tree going straight over backward against the lean without Jack's or winches are correct, cuts and gravity will not let that happen. Now...................like the videos have shown...........the action of the tree going 180 to the lean is a swing made possible by over cutting the far side of a traditional horizontal cut to establish where the hinge will be, say by another 45 degrees +/- depending on what the faller needs on the farthest 1/3rd +/- the diameter of the tree from the side you're on. Back out and make a second relief cut around 1/2" lower than the first and not as deep giving the spiral staircase affect someone mentioned earlier, now the extra kerfs that have been put on the far side let the tree start moving toward the far side as you release the far side wood first in the back cut and work the back cut around to near side more of the weight will swing around the far side and role down the kerfs or steps however is easier to visualize as it gains momentum in the swing you release more and more of back cut so holding wood is near side making the tree pull around the stump 90 to 180 degrees of the lean, whichever the faller desires for the situation. The reason nobody drew a picture in my opinion is because this isn't recommended for all people to try and nobody including myself want to encourage anyone to go out and get in an accident. But since video wasn't good enough there ya go for the still non-believers, I can't draw worth a **** either so that's the best explaination I can muster. I feel like the misunderstanding is a tree can't physically fall 180 to the lean facing it up and putting a back cut in without a Jack or winch, is that what you're trying to get us to understand bwildered? Cuz you're correct if that's what you're meaning in your argument, what the others are saying is the forces being relieved to the extra cuts and physics of the scenario are allowing the tree to turn and swing 180 give or take from the lean by distributing its weight elsewhere from the natural lean. Also why everyone's arguing each swing is different and you can't draw in one picture what all is taking place for this swing to happen without a picture book. If drawing is still required I can't help, and suggest like others have to head out and try some different things and see what's possible. Nothing against anyone just another approach of explanation and with that said if any of it makes any sorta sense or not you all will let me know haha, and those that may go try anything mentioned please cut safe


The part of the hinge left in your method is exactly on the high side of the lean of the tree , when all the fibres are cut through everywhere else that proves that it's in tension & C of G is beyond that point Across the stump or beyond it, the tree cannot go in the direction of what is left of the hinge as its uphill to the C of G & lean, the absolute best case range of fall is 90' either side of what is left of the hinge to the opposite side of the stump .
Thansk


----------



## KiwiBro

Bwildered said:


> A lot of them have gone quiet though after my last explanation, some light bulbs may have flickered out there.
> Tanski


Or perhaps:
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. —_Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)

_
Either way, it's been a good thread, and tanksi to all participants.


----------



## hseII

KiwiBro said:


> Or perhaps:
> Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. —_Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)
> 
> _
> Either way, it's been a good thread, and tanksi to all participants.



It can't be said any better than that.


----------



## Bwildered

KiwiBro said:


> Or perhaps:
> Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. —_Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)
> 
> _
> Either way, it's been a good thread, and tanksi to all participants.


No worries, it's been choice bro.
Fanks


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> It can't be said any better than that.


I thought I heard some hallelujahs echoing down the valley after that, doesn't change the physics though.
Tranks


----------



## Woos31

Bwildered said:


> The part of the hinge left in your method is exactly on the high side of the lean of the tree , when all the fibres are cut through everywhere else that proves that it's in tension & C of G is beyond that point Across the stump or beyond it, the tree cannot go in the direction of what is left of the hinge as its uphill to the C of G & lean, the absolute best case range of fall is 90' either side of what is left of the hinge to the opposite side of the stump .
> Thansk


Okay I may have failed a good piece of info here that may or may not aid..........I would make the face cuts gunning the tree downhill where I want it to come around to against the lean. So my hinge and pulling wood is downhill side of the c/g with 1/3 face cut and a Humboldt undercut. The side I stand on will leave the pulling hinge wood as evrything else is cut, the opposite side from me is totally cut and extra kerf cuts are under that first off. Then as the back cut starts the remaining off side is being released and the tree shifts weight away from me to those cuts and yes the tension is at my side of the stump. But as the butt pivotes away from me it sits on the steps or extra need cuts I made creating the spiral staircase affect and I'm releasing more with my back cut all the while as the tree's c/g has now changed a few times as it rolls or swings around the stump. Gaining momentum in its swing is allowing so many degrees change from natural lean and when it gets around to where I want it to lay I cut it off to where the tension wood pulling breaks. Now that I think more you're right in the fact that it wants to go 90* of the lean because that's how I've cut my face out and extra relief cuts but because of the way I set it up and faced it away from the lean my pull wood will let it swing around. If I don't stay at the stump all this while and cut more pull would throughout this swing you're right it would only go 90* and hang up or break off, but by tickling the back cut throughout the redirect and swing process I can gain more than a 90* swing from natural lean and can come around as much as 180*


----------



## madhatte

Woos31 said:


> Oh and madhatte that wasn't directed at you either pard, I pushed wrong button and thought it was a general reply LOL



It's all good!


----------



## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> A pool ball will always run downhill to the lowest side of a table, it can never run to the high side as gravity will never allow it.
> Thansk


What if you start incrementally sawing the legs on the high side of the pool table?

Theres something missing that you're not getting. 

Reggie-I will applaud you for bringing life back into the logging forum. I had almost given up on it. Glad to see everyone back for now!


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> A lot of them have gone quiet though after my last explanation, some light bulbs may have flickered out there.
> Tanski



More like...
its a halfwit conversation to have done something and then have someone who has not tell you that you can't because its "illogical" or not possible because of physics.
You're a blind man who doesn't know he's in the dark.

You'll never see it even if you accidentally did it to a tree yourself

So I just quit wasting my time...

Go whittle on a tree and figure it out for yourself like we did.

Or you could "man up" and just admit you "could be wrong" about this. People may just respect you for it


----------



## madhatte

bitzer said:


> What if you start incrementally sawing the legs on the high side of the pool table?



That is an excellent visualization. If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow it for the next time I try to explain what I'm doing.


----------



## Skeans

madhatte said:


> That is an excellent visualization. If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow it for the next time I try to explain what I'm doing.


Almost reminds me of the wifey saying I'm not hungry then you order get some fries and before you know it you had fries.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Bwildered

Woos31 said:


> Okay I may have failed a good piece of info here that may or may not aid..........I would make the face cuts gunning the tree downhill where I want it to come around to against the lean. So my hinge and pulling wood is downhill side of the c/g with 1/3 face cut and a Humboldt undercut. The side I stand on will leave the pulling hinge wood as evrything else is cut, the opposite side from me is totally cut and extra kerf cuts are under that first off. Then as the back cut starts the remaining off side is being released and the tree shifts weight away from me to those cuts and yes the tension is at my side of the stump. But as the butt pivotes away from me it sits on the steps or extra need cuts I made creating the spiral staircase affect and I'm releasing more with my back cut all the while as the tree's c/g has now changed a few times as it rolls or swings around the stump. Gaining momentum in its swing is allowing so many degrees change from natural lean and when it gets around to where I want it to lay I cut it off to where the tension wood pulling breaks. Now that I think more you're right in the fact that it wants to go 90* of the lean because that's how I've cut my face out and extra relief cuts but because of the way I set it up and faced it away from the lean my pull wood will let it swing around. If I don't stay at the stump all this while and cut more pull would throughout this swing you're right it would only go 90* and hang up or break off, but by tickling the back cut throughout the redirect and swing process I can gain more than a 90* swing from natural lean and can come around as much as 180*


The proof of what I'm saying is in all the videos I have seen, the tree hits the ground no more than 90' to the hinge & line across the butt, sure it may peel & turn off the stump, the back cut prevents a lot of it, now if you were to do the same cuts above the back cut on the far side that would give it a really good spinning motion, we'll call it the ultra double soft Dutchman with a twist if it works!
Fanks


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> What if you start incrementally sawing the legs on the high side of the pool table?
> 
> Theres something missing that you're not getting.
> 
> Reggie-I will applaud you for bringing life back into the logging forum. I had almost given up on it. Glad to see everyone back for now!


The pool ball is just an analogy of gravity but we'll still use it in what your picturing, the table has 3 legs, the side of the table where the pool ball starts rolling from never changes height, which is the hinge of the tree, the ball will roll to the low side of the table, meanwhile you cut off one of the far side legs, the table drops & the ball arcs around to the new line of fall, it cannot pass backwards along its path to beyond where it started from as that is a fixed height & doesn't change. Even if you were hold the table on one one leg & tilt your opposite down & to the side the ball will always hit the ground between you & the support of the table.
Fanski


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> More like...
> its a halfwit conversation to have done something and then have someone who has not tell you that you can't because its "illogical" or not possible because of physics.
> You're a blind man who doesn't know he's in the dark.
> 
> You'll never see it even if you accidentally did it to a tree yourself
> 
> So I just quit wasting my time...
> 
> Go whittle on a tree and figure it out for yourself like we did.
> 
> Or you could "man up" and just admit you "could be wrong" about this. People may just respect you for it


The only reason I'd be blind is because my candle has nearly been put out a few times.
Tranks


----------



## madhatte

Bwildered said:


> the tree hits the ground no more than 90' to the hinge & line across the butt



If I understand correctly, you are in OZ. No matter; should you find yourself here in the PNW, look me up. I'll show you how possible it is to swing a tall tree way further than common sense suggests is possible. It's all about leverage and momentum. That invitation stands until I am physically unable to run a saw. It is a thing that I have done successfully many times and also screwed up royally many times.


----------



## northmanlogging

Bwildered said:


> The pool ball is just an analogy of gravity but we'll still use it in what your picturing, the table has 3 legs, the side of the table where the pool ball starts rolling from never changes height, which is the hinge of the tree, the ball will roll to the low side of the table, meanwhile you cut off one of the far side legs, the table drops & the ball arcs around to the new line of fall, it cannot pass backwards along its path to beyond where it started from as that is a fixed height & doesn't change. Even if you were hold the table on one one leg & tilt your opposite down & to the side the ball will always hit the ground between you & the support of the table.
> Fanski



I'm definitely wasting my time here, but have you ever swung a rope or a piece of chain around, it defies gravity yes, if yer really cool and wear a 10 gallon hat you can even dance around it and catch moo cows or wild injuns (ahem racist)... 

Any way the point is you build momentum, you can't just "magically" have the rope flip straight up in the air, you have to start at the bottom, redirect its natural gravity, once it starts going more or less where you want it to go, you just make sure to help it along a little, essentially this is all a soft dutch is, that first cut the deepest dutch is to get the tree to start leaning towards where you would like it to go, the rest of the progressive steps merely encourage it to keep going. the hold wood is basically your wrist the hand and rope pivot around the wrist. Once it starts to move you just have to keep nipping away the back cut to continue with the movement, as you nip it away it gains speed and momentum, then at the optimum point (assuming you haven't ran away screaming) you sever the rest of the hold wood stopping the swing to some extent and launching the tree off the stump, much like an old style sling shot (that mean hebrew boy and the unfortunate sasquatch kind).

Unlike a rope the tree is straight up, and we can let gravity do most of the work for us, just have to get that initial lean going a different direction. Hence the massive dutched face cut, you really do cut way past the 30% that GOL crap has taught everyone and go until the bastard sags, not so much as to pinch yer saw real bad but just enough to change the ballance of the tree, the rest is just stair steps to ease it on around.

The other hang up you seem to have is the hold wood, or tension wood, the hold wood is always perpendicular to the intended lay, it remains tension wood but the tree will bend from one direction to the other, constantly pulling on that tension wood. Once you have that first fat dutch, the lean has already changed, its just a matter of continuing that change all the way around. 

When its all said and done most of the off side hold wood will be gone, leaving anywhere from 1/2 to sometimes less then 1/4 of the diameter for hold wood in the near side. Both allowing the tree to change its lean and simultaneously pivot around the remaining hold wood.


----------



## 056 kid

Bwildered said:


> A lot of them have gone quiet though after my last explanation, some light bulbs may have flickered out there.
> Tanski




We went quiet because you're too ****ing dumb to talk at....


----------



## Woos31

Bwildered said:


> The proof of what I'm saying is in all the videos I have seen, the tree hits the ground no more than 90' to the hinge & line across the butt, sure it may peel & turn off the stump, the back cut prevents a lot of it, now if you were to do the same cuts above the back cut on the far side that would give it a really good spinning motion, we'll call it the ultra double soft Dutchman with a twist if it works!
> Fanks


Well you're right again cuz the idea is for a tree to fall where you aim it which would be 90* to you hinge. In the videos they fall close to 90* of the hinge across the stump yes, but that's also 180* to the lean which is what they wanted to happen proving possible to accomplish. So I'm not following now about how it isn't possible because you always want a tree to come off the hinge generally at 90* unless you're swinging it from the lean around to a new lay between 90* and 180* opposite the lean. Also not sure what the argument has moved to now


----------



## Woos31

northmanlogging said:


> I'm definitely wasting my time here, but have you ever swung a rope or a piece of chain around, it defies gravity yes, if yer really cool and wear a 10 gallon hat you can even dance around it and catch moo cows or wild injuns (ahem racist)...
> 
> Any way the point is you build momentum, you can't just "magically" have the rope flip straight up in the air, you have to start at the bottom, redirect its natural gravity, once it starts going more or less where you want it to go, you just make sure to help it along a little, essentially this is all a soft dutch is, that first cut the deepest dutch is to get the tree to start leaning towards where you would like it to go, the rest of the progressive steps merely encourage it to keep going. the hold wood is basically your wrist the hand and rope pivot around the wrist. Once it starts to move you just have to keep nipping away the back cut to continue with the movement, as you nip it away it gains speed and momentum, then at the optimum point (assuming you haven't ran away screaming) you sever the rest of the hold wood stopping the swing to some extent and launching the tree off the stump, much like an old style sling shot (that mean hebrew boy and the unfortunate sasquatch kind).
> 
> Unlike a rope the tree is straight up, and we can let gravity do most of the work for us, just have to get that initial lean going a different direction. Hence the massive dutched face cut, you really do cut way past the 30% that GOL crap has taught everyone and go until the bastard sags, not so much as to pinch yer saw real bad but just enough to change the ballance of the tree, the rest is just stair steps to ease it on around.
> 
> The other hang up you seem to have is the hold wood, or tension wood, the hold wood is always perpendicular to the intended lay, it remains tension wood but the tree will bend from one direction to the other, constantly pulling on that tension wood. Once you have that first fat dutch, the lean has already changed, its just a matter of continuing that change all the way around.
> 
> When its all said and done most of the off side hold wood will be gone, leaving anywhere from 1/2 to sometimes less then 1/4 of the diameter for hold wood in the near side. Both allowing the tree to change its lean and simultaneously pivot around the remaining hold wood.


Good splainin Northman, not many more ways to prove it can be done and with video even............makes my head hurt lol


----------



## hseII

northmanlogging said:


> I'm definitely wasting my time here, but have you ever swung a rope or a piece of chain around, it defies gravity yes, if yer really cool and wear a 10 gallon hat you can even dance around it and catch moo cows or wild injuns (ahem racist)...
> 
> Any way the point is you build momentum, you can't just "magically" have the rope flip straight up in the air, you have to start at the bottom, redirect its natural gravity, once it starts going more or less where you want it to go, you just make sure to help it along a little, essentially this is all a soft dutch is, that first cut the deepest dutch is to get the tree to start leaning towards where you would like it to go, the rest of the progressive steps merely encourage it to keep going. the hold wood is basically your wrist the hand and rope pivot around the wrist. Once it starts to move you just have to keep nipping away the back cut to continue with the movement, as you nip it away it gains speed and momentum, then at the optimum point (assuming you haven't ran away screaming) you sever the rest of the hold wood stopping the swing to some extent and launching the tree off the stump, much like an old style sling shot (that mean hebrew boy and the unfortunate sasquatch kind).
> 
> Unlike a rope the tree is straight up, and we can let gravity do most of the work for us, just have to get that initial lean going a different direction. Hence the massive dutched face cut, you really do cut way past the 30% that GOL crap has taught everyone and go until the bastard sags, not so much as to pinch yer saw real bad but just enough to change the ballance of the tree, the rest is just stair steps to ease it on around.
> 
> The other hang up you seem to have is the hold wood, or tension wood, the hold wood is always perpendicular to the intended lay, it remains tension wood but the tree will bend from one direction to the other, constantly pulling on that tension wood. Once you have that first fat dutch, the lean has already changed, its just a matter of continuing that change all the way around.
> 
> When its all said and done most of the off side hold wood will be gone, leaving anywhere from 1/2 to sometimes less then 1/4 of the diameter for hold wood in the near side. Both allowing the tree to change its lean and simultaneously pivot around the remaining hold wood.



Props for being able to tie David & Goliath into into a thread about Felling against the lean. 

Cudo's. 

#ProudtoNotBeFromPhilistine


----------



## Bwildered

Woos31 said:


> Well you're right again cuz the idea is for a tree to fall where you aim it which would be 90* to you hinge. In the videos they fall close to 90* of the hinge across the stump yes, but that's also 180* to the lean which is what they wanted to happen proving possible to accomplish. So I'm not following now about how it isn't possible because you always want a tree to come off the hinge generally at 90* unless you're swinging it from the lean around to a new lay between 90* and 180* opposite the lean. Also not sure what the argument has moved to now


If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
Transki


----------



## bigbarf48

madhatte said:


> If I understand correctly, you are in OZ. No matter; should you find yourself here in the PNW, look me up. I'll show you how possible it is to swing a tall tree way further than common sense suggests is possible. It's all about leverage and momentum. That invitation stands until I am physically unable to run a saw. It is a thing that I have done successfully many times and also screwed up royally many times.



I think this is the key here: MOMENTUM. A tree rolling around, even slightly, carries an incredible amount of weight and momentum. This momentum can push it farther than gravity alone would pull it


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## Bwildered

madhatte said:


> If I understand correctly, you are in OZ. No matter; should you find yourself here in the PNW, look me up. I'll show you how possible it is to swing a tall tree way further than common sense suggests is possible. It's all about leverage and momentum. That invitation stands until I am physically unable to run a saw. It is a thing that I have done successfully many times and also screwed up royally many times.


Thanks for the offer, before marriage I'd done a couple trips up & down the west coast from LA through to BC & inland to the high sierras Jasper, Vancouver island, very nice country, I grew up in steep country & have one leg longer than the other as a result of it. There has been talk at the dinner table about doing a trip to BC because they haven't been there, which is only hop skip & a jump from your neck of the woods, so if I'm over that way I would jump at the opportunity to escape from the family holiday madness.
Thansk


----------



## bitzer

Alright Reggie you've almost got it. Saw lean into the tree and she'll lean out. Causing momentum because of gravity. Hold wood keeps it on the stump and is the axis for which the butt rotates. Every kerf causes the tree to lean even more because the top moves by so many feet. Remember -opposite of wedging. Top move by so many feet when lifted with wedges, it also moves by so many feet when wood is removed. You almost had it a year ago too.

You're right it is easier to put a single kerf Dutchman in and pound a wedge to get it to come around but that's not what we're talking about. It's not really a practical cut and you really need room for it to work.

Watch my video again. Watch the kerfs in relation to where I'm removing wood. I start in the back and realize if I continue cutting the back I will lose the tree over backwards. That's why I cut more of the hinge away in the front so the tree can lean out and start to fall into the first kerf. Once the tree has sat down and somewhat out I can start in on the back again. I have used gravity for momentum and the strength of the remaining holding wood to keep it on the stump.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Alright Reggie you've almost got it. *Saw lean into the tree* and she'll lean out. Causing momentum because of gravity. Hold wood keeps it on the stump and is the axis for which the butt rotates. Every kerf causes the tree to lean even more because the top moves by so many feet. Remember -opposite of wedging. Top move by so many feet when lifted with wedges, it also moves by so many feet when wood is removed. You almost had it a year ago too.
> 
> You're right it is easier to put a single kerf Dutchman in and pound a wedge to get it to come around but that's not what we're talking about. It's not really a practical cut and you really need room for it to work.
> 
> Watch my video again. Watch the kerfs in relation to where I'm removing wood. I start in the back and realize if I continue cutting the back I will lose the tree over backwards. That's why I cut more of the hinge away in the front so the tree can lean out and start to fall into the first kerf. Once the tree has sat down and somewhat out I can start in on the back again. I have used gravity for momentum and the strength of the remaining holding wood to keep it on the stump.


Did you notice where & what angle your tuft of hinge which was left in relation to the line of fall, near 90' to that tuft that was on the uphill side of the lean of a fairly balanced tree, you must have cut away 90% of it before it fell over & it never pinched your saw at anytime which shows that.
Tranks


----------



## northmanlogging

Bwildered said:


> If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
> Transki



Yer almost there when the tip gets pinched, its expected, but by then the tree is moving and if you did things right the saw will be released and you can continue cutting, creating more and more speed as it goes.


----------



## Bwildered

If I'm istarting to talk more jibberish than normal it's because I've had a full day cutting, snigging & sawmilling, a parrot came down & had lunch with me to make my afternoon a little brighter.
Tanks


----------



## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 511973
> 
> Did you notice where & what angle your tuft of hinge which was left in relation to the line of fall, near 90' to that tuft that was on the uphill side of the lean of a fairly balanced tree, you must have cut away 90% of it before it fell over & it never pinched your saw at anytime which shows that.
> Tranks


I had the wedge in the back just to keep the kerf open. Without the wedge keeping the kerf open the tree would have sat back and not moved at all. The tree was pretty well balanced. The stem lean was roughly 180 to the lay, but the top had just enough weight on one side to encourage favorable movement. The harder the tree is leaning or the more top heavy it is limits how far you can swing the tree.


----------



## Woos31

Bwildered said:


> If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
> Transki


Yes sir you're correct again, that's why you have to cut the opposite side in one of the first few cuts before the back cut. Example..........I would make my first cut being horizontal to establish the depth 1/3 diameter for hinge wood the direction I want the tree to go, in this case completely opposite of lean. I would work the tip around the off side cutting deeper toward the back to release that side, otherwise like you said it would bite my bar and that would be the end of it. Cut 2 would be the undercut with a Humboldt so when it starts coming around gravity is helping the butt sit and roll down the opposite edge of the face and the extra kerf cuts (cuts 3,4, and maybe 5). This is where the swing/roll really gets happening as the momentum and gravity changes as the tree simultaneously leans 90* to natural lean which is away from me. I then start cut 6 which is back cut and it begins on far side first and carefully releasing as to allow the tree to start leaning away from me and working around releasing more as that would has changed from compression would with the natural lean to now being tension wood as gravity has helped me change weight distribution and lean with no wood holding up the weight now transfering 90* to natural lean, and the extra cuts I made each shallower than the one above it compress letting the butt sit on the opposite edge of the stump and build momentum. The extra cuts are now totally compressed giving the spiral staircase affect as the butt rolls down that opposite edge and I release more wood from the back, the new tension/hinge point is on my side of the stump and say the last 1/4 which is how so much momentum is being built to allow for up to a 180* swing from natural lean, when it close to the lay I need gun it and cut a bunch of wood and gravity will sever the fibers for you. Now that is the minds eye view of what you want and that don't always happen, you have to be pretty bang on for where the cuts need to be and read the tree well too. Still many many things that can make this deal a complete waste, break your high dollar tree, or worse yourself. Consider species, what's in between the tree and where it'll swing to, your gut.........if your balls tingle and it don't feel right........don't do er, torch it off with the lean or whatever is comfortable, no tree worth not going home for. Safe cuttin out there boss


----------



## HuskStihl

Bwildered said:


> If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
> Transki


I hate this video, 'cause after I pinch the tip, I keep blipping the throttle waiting for the kerf to break. Makes me look more noobish than usual. The very first move this tree makes is in the direction of its lean, pinching the bar tip.

The first kerf breaks, the bar is free, the holding wood holds, and the butt comes off the stump on the opposite side of the stump
This pic shows the set up


This shows the stump. Note the broken first kerf on the right and the holding wood on the left.


This tree turned more than 90 degrees, and I lost momentum when I pinched the tip. Had I palmed a wedge and kept nibbling, I bet it would have turned more


----------



## Woos31

HuskStihl said:


> I hate this video, 'cause after I pinch the tip, I keep blipping the throttle waiting for the kerf to break. Makes me look more noobish than usual. The very first move this tree makes is in the direction of its lean, pinching the bar tip.
> 
> The first kerf breaks, the bar is free, the holding wood holds, and the butt comes off the stump on the opposite side of the stump
> This pic shows the set up
> View attachment 512094
> 
> This shows the stump. Note the broken first kerf on the right and the holding wood on the left.
> View attachment 512095
> 
> This tree turned more than 90 degrees, and I lost momentum when I pinched the tip. Had I palmed a wedge and kept nibbling, I bet it would have turned more



Got er to turn though, and sometimes tougher with a small diameter stick too


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> I had the wedge in the back just to keep the kerf open. Without the wedge keeping the kerf open the tree would have sat back and not moved at all. The tree was pretty well balanced. The stem lean was roughly 180 to the lay, but the top had just enough weight on one side to encourage favorable movement. The harder the tree is leaning or the more top heavy it is limits how far you can swing the tree.


I see & now understand why you were cutting on the face cut last, you nibbled away at the timber under the point of balance (C of G line between the hinge tuft & the opposite side of the stump) & it toppled once it was gone, just like pushing a can slowly over the edge of a table, the table being your last cuts.
Tarski


----------



## madhatte

Yep, if it sits on yer bar and then lifts off of it, you know it's turning and everything's working. Just keep your eyes on the top of the tree and remember that your escape routes have to be adjusted to accommodate the swing.


----------



## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> I see & now understand why you were cutting on the face cut last, you nibbled away at the timber under the point of balance (C of G line between the hinge tuft & the opposite side of the stump) & it toppled once it was gone, just like pushing a can slowly over the edge of a table, the table being your last cuts.
> Tarski


Correct. When I first start to make my backcut the tree starts to sit back at right around 20 seconds. That's when I realized I needed to cut more of the hinge away from the face to get the tree to sit down and lean out to the side. Right around 45-49 seconds the tree sits into the back corner( kerf tightens up). I looked into the face to see if the kerf had tightened up and it had meaning it had leaned more to the side and there was hope that the tree would be able to be swung how I wanted it to. Now that it moved to the side and ahead that meant that I could saw more from the back. When I return to the backcut I am "sawing" back and forth to open the kerf up a little because it hadn't opened up all the way yet, but I knew I couldn't take more out of the front so I had to work it there. Any more out of the front and I would have lost it. I really didn't want to wedge it because I wanted things to happen naturally for the video, but I was very close to doing it so I didn't lose the tree backward. Eventually as I nip at the backcut I start getting the movement I need which is apparent by the, at first, subtle closing and opening of the kerfs. What is remaining of the hinge acts as a pivot point. I often like a triangular shaped hinge for my holding wood because it seems to get better movement over a more rectangular hinge. Sometimes it's all in how you cut it up though and how the tree moves. Once I show the tree when it is down if you can mentally line up how it must have been standing you can see that the stem had a curvature or lean away from the lay. In the he future I won't turn the damn camera all over the place. Gets annoying to watch and hard to visualize.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Correct. When I first start to make my backcut the tree starts to sit back at right around 20 seconds. That's when I realized I needed to cut more of the hinge away from the face to get the tree to sit down and lean out to the side. Right around 45-49 seconds the tree sits into the back corner( kerf tightens up). I looked into the face to see if the kerf had tightened up and it had meaning it had leaned more to the side and there was hope that the tree would be able to be swung how I wanted it to. Now that it moved to the side and ahead that meant that I could saw more from the back. When I return to the backcut I am "sawing" back and forth to open the kerf up a little because it hadn't opened up all the way yet, but I knew I couldn't take more out of the front so I had to work it there. Any more out of the front and I would have lost it. I really didn't want to wedge it because I wanted things to happen naturally for the video, but I was very close to doing it so I didn't lose the tree backward. Eventually as I nip at the backcut I start getting the movement I need which is apparent by the, at first, subtle closing and opening of the kerfs. What is remaining of the hinge acts as a pivot point. I often like a triangular shaped hinge for my holding wood because it seems to get better movement over a more rectangular hinge. Sometimes it's all in how you cut it up though and how the tree moves. Once I show the tree when it is down if you can mentally line up how it must have been standing you can see that the stem had a curvature or lean away from the lay. In the he future I won't turn the damn camera all over the place. Gets annoying to watch and hard to visualize.


I watched the vid several times in fast motion, backwards & forwards & it confirms my theory of what I have been saying all along, the actual high side of the C of G or lean is where the tuft of hinge is left, the tree cannot fall that way because the tree can't beat gravity & fall uphill so to speak, in the screen shots you can see that tree has fallen a near perfect 90' to a line across the butt to the point on the other side where it pivoted off (pic 1), that tree could have also easily gone the exact opposite way but your wedge stopped it leaning anymore that way, a falling range of 180' but still only 90' to the line of the C of G or lean, the butt of the tree ended up way past that 90' but that's irrelevant, as if the land sloped the other way it would have been that far a less an angle than 90', it's where it hit the ground that matters & not the rolling around on the ground after that counts.
If you were to cut the hinge off Starting at the far side before fully completing the belly & backcuts the tree would naturally fall over the pivot point shown in pic 1. Which is the line of the C of G or lean, you could not reverse that cut starting at the camera side, as the saw would pinch under compression.
Transki


----------



## bitzer

Of course it fell 90 degrees to the hold wood! That's where I aimed it! I feel like we've stepped backwards. Now. If I had faced the tree the opposite direction that I did the tree would have gone that way without a problem. The reasons I did not start on the camera side instead was like I mentioned there was slightly more top weight on the camera side allowing for favorable movement. In physical realtion to the actually typography I'm cutting on the downhill side of the stump. Swinging over the downhill slope would gain too much momentum for the hold wood to hang on all the way through. The wind was another factor in how I cut the tree. It was coming out of the northwest. The tree was faced to the north. The reason I mention to look at it on the ground is you can mentally put the tree back on the stump and see that the stem had a backward lean. You can also see saw marks in the butt similar to when you bore cut. This is where I was "sawing " into the backcut in order to open it up. So you are thinking the center of gravity line is north and south? West (hinge side)being the high side and east (camera side)the low? If that were the case all I would have needed to do was use a single kerf Dutchman and she would have laid right out. Also there is slightly less sapwood on the south side, indicating the wood was under compression there.


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## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Of course it fell 90 degrees to the hold wood! That's where I aimed it! I feel like we've stepped backwards. Now. If I had faced the tree the opposite direction that I did the tree would have gone that way without a problem. The reasons I did not start on the camera side instead was like I mentioned there was slightly more top weight on the camera side allowing for favorable movement. In physical realtion to the actually typography I'm cutting on the downhill side of the stump. Swinging over the downhill slope would gain too much momentum for the hold wood to hang on all the way through. The wind was another factor in how I cut the tree. It was coming out of the northwest. The tree was faced to the north. The reason I mention to look at it on the ground is you can mentally put the tree back on the stump and see that the stem had a backward lean. You can also see saw marks in the butt similar to when you bore cut. This is where I was "sawing " into the backcut in order to open it up. So you are thinking the center of gravity line is north and south? West (hinge side)being the high side and east (camera side)the low? If that were the case all I would have needed to do was use a single kerf Dutchman and she would have laid right out. Also there is slightly less sapwood on the south side, indicating the wood was under compression there.


If I'm reading what you say correctly the tree had to be perpendicular with no lean in any direction & the C of G over the centre of the stump, by overlapping your back & front cuts that allows the tree to sit down (sawing in the lean) opposite the holding wood & fall the tree 90' either way to that point
Thanski


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## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 512196
> View attachment 512195
> 
> I watched the vid several times in fast motion, backwards & forwards & it confirms my theory of what I have been saying all along, the actual high side of the C of G or lean is where the tuft of hinge is left, the tree cannot fall that way because the tree can't beat gravity & fall uphill so to speak, in the screen shots you can see that tree has fallen a near perfect 90' to a line across the butt to the point on the other side where it pivoted off (pic 1), that tree could have also easily gone the exact opposite way but your wedge stopped it leaning anymore that way, a falling range of 180' but still only 90' to the line of the C of G or lean, the butt of the tree ended up way past that 90' but that's irrelevant, as if the land sloped the other way it would have been that far a less an angle than 90', it's where it hit the ground that matters & not the rolling around on the ground after that counts.
> If you were to cut the hinge off Starting at the far side before fully completing the belly & backcuts the tree would naturally fall over the pivot point shown in pic 1. Which is the line of the C of G or lean, you could not reverse that cut starting at the camera side, as the saw would pinch under compression.
> Transki



You have got to be kidding me!

Simple. find the way the tree is leaning and swing it 180. who cares about all the C of G stuff. You are way over complicating things.
Its a tree. It got cut. It fell a different direction than the lean. Done.


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## Skeans

bnmc98 said:


> You have got to be kidding me!
> 
> Simple. find the way the tree is leaning and swing it 180. who cares about all the C of G stuff. You are way over complicating things.
> Its a tree. It got cut. It fell a different direction than the lean. Done.


It's the kiss method

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## hseII

Skeans said:


> It's the kiss method
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



I have figured out the root cause of the issue: Bewildered is an book toting Engineer.


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## Skeans

hseII said:


> I have figured out the root cause of the issue: Bewildered is an book toting Engineer.


We all have stuff we know what to do with if you don't know how to do don't it's that easy, if you ask for help take it and learn it either works for you or it doesn't. If you're not comfortable put wedges in before or a jack because it's so far back but otherwise drop it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> You have got to be kidding me!
> 
> Simple. find the way the tree is leaning and swing it 180. who cares about all the C of G stuff. You are way over complicating things.
> Its a tree. It got cut. It fell a different direction than the lean. Done.


We'll lets all throw our hands up in the air just take some roosters word for it then, if the principals of physics are beyond you just sit back watch it unfold, the centre of gravity has everything to do with what is possible & what isn't. If the C of G is outside the butt edge of the tree then with the soft Dutchman method it is impossible to get the tree to turn anymore than 90' to the line of that across the butt, now if the C of G is centrally within the butt then you can make a that tree fall vertually in any direction you want by dropping the side opposite the hold wood & creating a lean, it's just the opposite of wedging, but instead of lifting the tree you are dropping it by taking wood away & then toppling it to the side with the overlapping cuts. We have all seen the vids of it working, but the failure rate would be pretty high I'd imagine with hung up trees, bent bars & smashed saws a result of it not working.
Fansinski


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## bnmc98

Bewildered not sure if this fits into your logic cause a lot of that is over my head, but, you can swing the tree also with the holding wood in the center, just a little different technique on the back cut.


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## hseII

Skeans said:


> We all have stuff we know what to do with if you don't know how to do don't it's that easy, if you ask for help take it and learn it either works for you or it doesn't. If you're not comfortable put wedges in before or a jack because it's so far back but otherwise drop it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



When I get home, I'm going to go looking for hard leaners to hone my skill set. 

I want to practice this, as I'm used to wedging. 
I'll be sure to only work with those that won't hit anything if I get too happy with the throttle. [emoji41]


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## Skeans

hseII said:


> When I get home, I'm going to go looking for hard leaners to hone my skill set.
> 
> I want to practice this, as I'm used to wedging.
> I'll be sure to only work with those that won't hit anything if I get too happy with the throttle. [emoji41]


Practice is everything just like cutting how did you learn? I learned a bunch of this from a guy that was buschling in Alaska and he learned it from guys older then him. If this guy from OZ has an issue with our style or technical style I'll remind him they learned from us from day one, yes a younger brother can teach an older brother new tricks but listen to what we're saying.

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## hseII

Skeans said:


> Practice is everything just like cutting how did you learn? I learned a bunch of this from a guy that was buschling in Alaska and he learned it from guys older then him. If this guy from OZ has an issue with our style or technical style I'll remind him they learned from us from day one, yes a younger brother can teach an older brother new tricks but listen to what we're saying.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



What little I know I picked up from my uncles, as the family was in the grading & clearing business for over 30 yrs. 

For instance, they've told about taking down Water Oaks in town, and having to load the stumps with 2- 955 track loaders onto the lowboy for transport.


I have since picked up better saw habits from forums like this one & others, but they were pretty dang good on equipment: especially the tall one & gpa.


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## Bwildered

hseII said:


> I have figured out the root cause of the issue: Bewildered is an book toting Engineer.


I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
Fanks


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## Skeans

hseII said:


> What little I know I picked up from my uncles, as the family was in the grading & clearing business for over 30 yrs.
> 
> For instance, they've told about taking down Water Oaks in town, and having to load the stumps with 2- 955 track loaders onto the lowboy for transport.
> 
> 
> I have since picked up better saw habits from forums like this one & others, but they were pretty dang good on equipment: especially the tall one & gpa.


I've replanted from 200 year old stuff to 60 as well as thinning some hand falling to machine thinning all the above have to walked into a row so if they don't work tell me.

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## Skeans

Bwildered said:


> I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
> Fanks


I've got a good question honest for you where does engineering go out the window for you?

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## hseII

Bwildered said:


> I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
> Fanks



I Don't.

I Think I'm talking to a hard headed seasoned guy, who knows what works for him, but continues to argue against what works for others because he doesn't understand their methods.


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## Skeans

Bwildered said:


> I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
> Fanks


For one I'm not a teen for two I've worked in different kind of wood and different sizes of timber, if you don't like it what we have to tell you then don't take our advice from up North, remember we took your guys advice and killed the fallers work as well as look for your job going down the drain for setting chokers.

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## Bwildered

It doesn't matter what wood you're working in, gravity is the same. I'll have take another couple of minutes out of my day and do another couple of sketches to prove it . I was waiting for you guys to show how with a diagram how it's possible but the lead paint levels must have been a bit higher over your way than here, I hoping they won't be too complex to understand, an engineer would grasp them easily.
Tanks


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## madhatte

I think perhaps it is fun for you to pretend to not understand what we're saying.


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## Skeans

madhatte said:


> I think perhaps it is fun for you to pretend to not understand what we're saying.


What's next I need a PHD to weld over a guy that has done it for years?

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## hseII

Skeans said:


> What's next I need a PHD to weld over a guy that has done it for years?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



Or a no-welding Q.C.

Wait... [emoji38][emoji38]


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## northmanlogging

Bwildered said:


> It doesn't matter what wood you're working in, gravity is the same. I'll have take another couple of minutes out of my day and do another couple of sketches to prove it . I was waiting for you guys to show how with a diagram how it's possible but the lead paint levels must have been a bit higher over your way than here, I hoping they won't be too complex to understand, an engineer would grasp them easily.
> Tanks



And there it is, yer an engineer, or at least claim to be, and a surveyor, so you deal in the hard set rules of bureaucracy. If its not taken out of the box and used to beat you with it your never going to understand.

Swingin trees is real life, not paper, not a computer sketch thought up by some college grad for a doctorate in theoretical timber falling... 

4 days a week, soon to be 3 I'm a machinist, like the real kind, its my job to take some engineers pipe dream and make it a reality, and engineers have earned a reputation of having no basis in reality sorry but its true.

Does not matter if its dirt projects, aircraft or space craft, this **** they come up with is simply astounding in its ineffectiveness, overthought, over toleranced, and expensiveness. When if they just shut up about their college degree in whatever, and spend 15 minutes with the lowly grunts they could improve things 10 fold daily...

Rant over...

to reiterate, the first cut in the soft dutch, effectively changes the lean of the tree, from nearly 180, to closer to 150, the second to 100, the third if needed gets you in the 30 deg range notice how it exponentially increases. Think of each step of the soft dutch as another face cut, each one directing the tree more and more away from its natural lean.

In essence you say you can only fall them max 90 deg from the lean or C.O.G (lean is easier to type by the way...) but that first dutch is only 90 deg to the lean, or less, and if we where to then hypothetically make a face from that cut, the tree would then fallow that face yes? The steps are merely continuing that process around to where you want it to ultimately fall, its "final destination" if you will. By making the back cut you allow the tree to both pick up momentum, and turn into each new "face" or step, just like falling a tree 90 to its lean, but doing it 5 or so times in just a a few seconds.

Further more. By making steps, rather then full face cuts, we can stop the movement and then steer it towards the new direction, incrementally. (though stopping isn't really the right word... cause stopping movement sort of ruins a good step dutch swing, remember its about the momentum objects in motion or some bull **** hey another enginear...)

And honestly falling timber is dangerous, but this method is fairly safe in comparison to some others, the hold wood, the wood facing you, the "faller" never gets touched by the saw, unlike a conventional fall em with the lean method, where once the face has been cut up, all the support of the compression wood is gone and suddenly there is massive weight on the tension "back" wood, which is then weakened by sawing into it, sometimes causing a chair.

In other words go find yerself some annoying leaner out in the bushes somewheres and try it, give yerself a whole bunch of escape paths and bring some ass paper...


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## Bwildered

northmanlogging said:


> And there it is, yer an engineer, or at least claim to be, and a surveyor, so you deal in the hard set rules of bureaucracy. If its not taken out of the box and used to beat you with it your never going to understand.
> 
> Swingin trees is real life, not paper, not a computer sketch thought up by some college grad for a doctorate in theoretical timber falling...
> 
> 4 days a week, soon to be 3 I'm a machinist, like the real kind, its my job to take some engineers pipe dream and make it a reality, and engineers have earned a reputation of having no basis in reality sorry but its true.
> 
> Does not matter if its dirt projects, aircraft or space craft, this **** they come up with is simply astounding in its ineffectiveness, overthought, over toleranced, and expensiveness. When if they just shut up about their college degree in whatever, and spend 15 minutes with the lowly grunts they could improve things 10 fold daily...
> 
> Rant over...
> 
> to reiterate, the first cut in the soft dutch, effectively changes the lean of the tree, from nearly 180, to closer to 150, the second to 100, the third if needed gets you in the 30 deg range notice how it exponentially increases. Think of each step of the soft dutch as another face cut, each one directing the tree more and more away from its natural lean.
> 
> In essence you say you can only fall them max 90 deg from the lean or C.O.G (lean is easier to type by the way...) but that first dutch is only 90 deg to the lean, or less, and if we where to then hypothetically make a face from that cut, the tree would then fallow that face yes? The steps are merely continuing that process around to where you want it to ultimately fall, its "final destination" if you will. By making the back cut you allow the tree to both pick up momentum, and turn into each new "face" or step, just like falling a tree 90 to its lean, but doing it 5 or so times in just a a few seconds.
> 
> Further more. By making steps, rather then full face cuts, we can stop the movement and then steer it towards the new direction, incrementally. (though stopping isn't really the right word... cause stopping movement sort of ruins a good step dutch swing, remember its about the momentum objects in motion or some bull **** hey another enginear...)
> 
> And honestly falling timber is dangerous, but this method is fairly safe in comparison to some others, the hold wood, the wood facing you, the "faller" never gets touched by the saw, unlike a conventional fall em with the lean method, where once the face has been cut up, all the support of the compression wood is gone and suddenly there is massive weight on the tension "back" wood, which is then weakened by sawing into it, sometimes causing a chair.
> 
> In other words go find yerself some annoying leaner out in the bushes somewheres and try it, give yerself a whole bunch of escape paths and bring some ass paper...


Alas no , I'm not an engineer or a surveyor, just a fairly qualified wannabe wood butcher, they teach you structural appreciation so you don't look like a complete idiot when an engineer explains a design to you & if something seems to be too far fetched to be possible you have the skills to double check the design basics, the surveying is just so we can set out accurately & make sure things are plumb so the don't have a tendency to fall over leaning too much,
but growing up on the land in the bush cutting down trees with hatchets & axes since the age of 5 , which is over 50 years ago, you get to know what trees can & can't do, I can see exactly what you guys are doing & have explaned it fairly thoroughly, as you have given no reasonable explanations or diagrams showing how the COG can possibly swing or pass around the stump 180' from the COG lean it can be taken that it's just heresay. Furthermore there is no reference from plumb to the lean in any of the vids, yours or anybody elses , so that's heresay that there is a lean in the said direction with no proof at all that a lean exists in that direction at all, if you want make it believable & provable all the information needs to be clearly presented, so far it hasn't so it's not really believable, also there is no mention of how much lean is present, is it 4", 1 ft or 4 ft?
as you can tell I'm not an easy person to convince, we have a saying down here which goes like " when something seems to be too good to be true, it usually is"
Saneski


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## HuskStihl

Here's a thought. Mr. Wildered is trolling y'all. Nothing wrong with that, I do it to my tinfoil hat wearing friends on the political forum from time to time. No matter what y'all post, Mr. Wildered will never admit you are right. He has quite skillfully manipulated the situation to where he is in an authority position, and y'all are playing right into his hands. The burden of proof has been assigned to y'all, and he is the self appointed judge of the validity of y'all's posts. I doubt Mr. Wildered really cares how much a tree can be turned from its lay.


----------



## bnmc98

HuskStihl said:


> Here's a thought. Mr. Wildered is trolling y'all. Nothing wrong with that, I do it to my tinfoil hat wearing friends on the political forum from time to time. No matter what y'all post, Mr. Wildered will never admit you are right. He has quite skillfully manipulated the situation to where he is in an authority position, and y'all are playing right into his hands. The burden of proof has been assigned to y'all, and he is the self appointed judge of the validity of y'all's posts. I doubt Mr. Wildered really cares how much a tree can be turned from its lay.



He's only in authority if we keep trying to prove to him what he doesn't want to see.
Whats real is real:
we can swing trees
he can't
with all his logic, he cant figure it out
he's bullheaded and prideful and ignorant about the situation.
he's caught up in semantics.
So outside of arguing, he really has no control.

All we have to do is walk away quietly and he will still be wrong.


----------



## bitzer

northmanlogging said:


> And there it is, yer an engineer, or at least claim to be, and a surveyor, so you deal in the hard set rules of bureaucracy. If its not taken out of the box and used to beat you with it your never going to understand.
> 
> Swingin trees is real life, not paper, not a computer sketch thought up by some college grad for a doctorate in theoretical timber falling...
> 
> 4 days a week, soon to be 3 I'm a machinist, like the real kind, its my job to take some engineers pipe dream and make it a reality, and engineers have earned a reputation of having no basis in reality sorry but its true.
> 
> Does not matter if its dirt projects, aircraft or space craft, this **** they come up with is simply astounding in its ineffectiveness, overthought, over toleranced, and expensiveness. When if they just shut up about their college degree in whatever, and spend 15 minutes with the lowly grunts they could improve things 10 fold daily...
> 
> Rant over...
> 
> to reiterate, the first cut in the soft dutch, effectively changes the lean of the tree, from nearly 180, to closer to 150, the second to 100, the third if needed gets you in the 30 deg range notice how it exponentially increases. Think of each step of the soft dutch as another face cut, each one directing the tree more and more away from its natural lean.
> 
> In essence you say you can only fall them max 90 deg from the lean or C.O.G (lean is easier to type by the way...) but that first dutch is only 90 deg to the lean, or less, and if we where to then hypothetically make a face from that cut, the tree would then fallow that face yes? The steps are merely continuing that process around to where you want it to ultimately fall, its "final destination" if you will. By making the back cut you allow the tree to both pick up momentum, and turn into each new "face" or step, just like falling a tree 90 to its lean, but doing it 5 or so times in just a a few seconds.
> 
> Further more. By making steps, rather then full face cuts, we can stop the movement and then steer it towards the new direction, incrementally. (though stopping isn't really the right word... cause stopping movement sort of ruins a good step dutch swing, remember its about the momentum objects in motion or some bull **** hey another enginear...)
> 
> And honestly falling timber is dangerous, but this method is fairly safe in comparison to some others, the hold wood, the wood facing you, the "faller" never gets touched by the saw, unlike a conventional fall em with the lean method, where once the face has been cut up, all the support of the compression wood is gone and suddenly there is massive weight on the tension "back" wood, which is then weakened by sawing into it, sometimes causing a chair.
> 
> In other words go find yerself some annoying leaner out in the bushes somewheres and try it, give yerself a whole bunch of escape paths and bring some ass paper...



Great explanation Matt! That's dead on what's happening.


----------



## Bwildered

HuskStihl said:


> Here's a thought. Mr. Wildered is trolling y'all. Nothing wrong with that, I do it to my tinfoil hat wearing friends on the political forum from time to time. No matter what y'all post, Mr. Wildered will never admit you are right. He has quite skillfully manipulated the situation to where he is in an authority position, and y'all are playing right into his hands. The burden of proof has been assigned to y'all, and he is the self appointed judge of the validity of y'all's posts. I doubt Mr. Wildered really cares how much a tree can be turned from its lay.


If the soft Dutchman method of swinging a tree 180' from the COG lean happens to be proven right, it's right, there hasn't been enough of the crucial info provided to come anywhere near that conclusion yet. Bluster doesn't count nor concern me very much.
The burden of proof is against gravity not me.
Thanski


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## rwoods

I wish I lived closer to some of you for some hands on instruction. I appreciate the time many have spend trying to explain things to Bw, but as some have noted he is just having fun. I got sucked in more than once in the previous argument. It doesn't matter the logic there is always some supposed error.

As to an engineer's position from previous thread:



rwoods said:


> I thought I was done with the tree turning discussion, but I couldn't restrain myself from asking a registered structural engineer today if a tree with a slight natural lean could be felled 180 degrees from the natural lean using only incremental cuts. I told him I was asking due to an ongoing international dispute between loggers. FWIW He said, "Yes." And, if there is any lingering doubt, in both northern and southern hemispheres. However, for safety purposes, he said he would recommend mechanical assistance. I told him I was going to quote him on the internet. He was fine with that.
> 
> Ron



Carry on as you please.

Ron


----------



## northmanlogging

Bwildered said:


> I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
> Fanks



And now yer just a ****ing liar, so quietly please get ****ed.


----------



## Bwildered

rwoods said:


> I wish I lived closer to some of you for some hands on instruction. I appreciate the time many have spend trying to explain things to Bw, but as some have noted he is just having fun. I got sucked in more than once in the previous argument. It doesn't matter the logic there is always some supposed error.
> 
> As to an engineer's position from previous thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Carry on as you please.
> 
> Ron


Get him to do the sketch then showing how it's possible then , easy hey!
Or video him showing us how it's possible on a leaning dowel in a vice! No risk of losing him or saw, maybe a chipped nail at worst.
Thansk


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## Bwildered

northmanlogging said:


> And now yer just a ****ing liar, so quietly please get ****ed.


What I stated is absolutely correct, units of study make up the qualification in the field of study, 24 units make a degree,
I did units of engineering & surveying , but not to get a degree in engineering. Your exiting gotcha moment really wasn't a moment at all.
I learnt long ago to tell the truth, there is less to remember!
Thansk


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## ArtB

When the lean puts a few tons of wood on 3 feet on the far side of the outside of the trunk, I always use wire rope for a 180 degree fall.

Even then, sometimes the fall is only 170 degrees opposite the lean. 
150ft + black cottonwood, few hundred feet of wire rope, couple of blocks, side rope, etc.
should have moved the backhoe <G> 
copied from 'Ford fails FOP test' thread, but maybe appropriate for this thread?

I have seen no one post for how FAR a lean a Dutchman can rotate a tree 180 degrees. 1 degree? Not past edge of trunk? 45 degrees?

I would LOVE to se a video of CS felling a tree 180 deg to the lean with even a 30 degree lean!


----------



## rwoods

Bwildered said:


> Get him to do the sketch then showing how it's possible then , easy hey!
> Or video him showing us how it's possible on a leaning dowel in a vice! No risk of losing him or saw, maybe a chipped nail at worst.
> Thansk



Bw, re-read post 78 of this thread. If necessary, also re-read post 850 of the previous thread. Or send me $1500 USD and I'll ask him for your unnecessary sketches. It has been over a year now, how are you coming on the "to scale" chainsaw for Jon to cut your dowel. Don't forget the precise instruments to measure the lean so we don't argue over the lean. If you can see it on your short dowel without any instruments then too much lean has been dialed. Ron


----------



## Gologit

HuskStihl said:


> Here's a thought. Mr. Wildered is trolling y'all. Nothing wrong with that, I do it to my tinfoil hat wearing friends on the political forum from time to time. No matter what y'all post, Mr. Wildered will never admit you are right. He has quite skillfully manipulated the situation to where he is in an authority position, and y'all are playing right into his hands. The burden of proof has been assigned to y'all, and he is the self appointed judge of the validity of y'all's posts. I doubt Mr. Wildered really cares how much a tree can be turned from its lay.



Exactly right.


----------



## madhatte

HuskStihl said:


> Here's a thought. Mr. Wildered is trolling y'all.



I repeat: 



madhatte said:


> I think perhaps it is fun for you to pretend to not understand what we're saying.


----------



## Bwildered

madhatte said:


> I repeat:


I have been persistently asking for specifics & not fluffing up my feathers in denial of gravity or ganging up hoping the bluff or bluster would pass as evidence against it. It just seems it's too hard a task for the believers go the distance needed to seal the deal on what appears to be the totally impossible.
Thanski


----------



## rwoods

Everyone here including Bw knows that trees are felled everyday with just a chainsaw in a direction different than their standing COG would dictate if no other forces were involved. Just how much lean can be overcome or just how far a tree will turn is open to a debate that can't be resolved in any laboratory setting as the variables are too many. If any can't deal with that fact then too bad. Life is short enough without getting bent out of shape arguing over this. If you enjoy arguing for the sake of argument then carry on. Same if you are trying to educate the masses. If neither, then you are just wasting time trying to win this one.

Ron


----------



## bitzer

I like the fact that everyone is talking again. This thread even pulled Ted out of seclusion.

The facts have been presented. The plumb Bob argument is null because there are kerfs to read. Everything has been given for a conclusion to be made. it will not work with a dowel or broomstick there is no leverage there. Now it is time for Reggie to try for himself on some real trees. Unfortunately this conversation ends here until Reggie has actually tried to swing a tree. Any more talk is only speculation on his part. For it is he that is on trial now. Not those who have succeeded but those that have failed to attempt.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> I like the fact that everyone is talking again. This thread even pulled Ted out of seclusion.
> 
> The facts have been presented. The plumb Bob argument is null because there are kerfs to read. Everything has been given for a conclusion to be made. it will not work with a dowel or broomstick there is no leverage there. Now it is time for Reggie to try for himself on some real trees. Unfortunately this conversation ends here until Reggie has actually tried to swing a tree. Any more talk is only speculation on his part. For it is he that is on trial now. Not those who have succeeded but those that have failed to attempt.


I'll use my axe as a plumb bob on any trees that look a bit deceiving in the lean direction , I've been caught out & lost a bit of gear not reading the lean.
From the sketch I gave before, where would I make the cuts to get it to swing a lowly 90', from my experience a tree with that much lean would be lucky to get anymore than 45' in our hardwoods, it would start falling at around 75' to the lean, but it would tear the hinge out on the way down & swing back to around 45'.
Thansk


----------



## madhatte

Bwildered said:


> from my experience a tree with that much lean would be lucky to get anymore than 45' in our hardwoods, it would start falling at around 75' to the lean, but it would tear the hinge out on the way down & swing back to around 45'.



OK, now, that was a useful statement. You are thinking "but I can't do that with our wood" rather than "you can't do that". Fact is, shorter fibers, weaker fibers, or more brittle fibers won't hold as well and will break earlier. I figured this out when I bounced a big sycamore off of a building cleaning up after an ice storm. See, we don't have sycamore here, and this was a planted landscape tree, and I didn't know what to expect from it because I'd never cut sycamore before, but I tried to swing it about 45 degrees anyway. It was having none of that, and a lesson was learned. The building was also unharmed, due to being all-concrete construction, so it was a cheap lesson for me. My point is that you are now acknowledging that understanding what the tree is capable of is a big part of what you can do with it while cutting it.


----------



## bitzer

It's all over, for the, unknown soldier...


----------



## chucker

bitzer said:


> It's all over, for the, unknown soldier...


? do they fade away?


----------



## Bwildered

madhatte said:


> OK, now, that was a useful statement. You are thinking "but I can't do that with our wood" rather than "you can't do that". Fact is, shorter fibers, weaker fibers, or more brittle fibers won't hold as well and will break earlier. I figured this out when I bounced a big sycamore off of a building cleaning up after an ice storm. See, we don't have sycamore here, and this was a planted landscape tree, and I didn't know what to expect from it because I'd never cut sycamore before, but I tried to swing it about 45 degrees anyway. It was having none of that, and a lesson was learned. The building was also unharmed, due to being all-concrete construction, so it was a cheap lesson for me. My point is that you are now acknowledging that understanding what the tree is capable of is a big part of what you can do with it while cutting it.


We also have many non commercial softwood species in our bush that have felled for safety reasons & they have amazingly flexible fibres, there isn't much of a difference in the hinge wood when trying to fall them away from the lean.
You have skipped past the actual question in my post though while chasing another gotcha moment, what cuts would you do to get it to go 90' to the lean & further more what cuts would you do to get it go 180' to the lean?
Thanski


----------



## madhatte

That was not intended to be a "gotcha" moment, but rather an "aha" moment. It's no skin off my nose if you don't see it that way.


----------



## Bwildered

madhatte said:


> That was not intended to be a "gotcha" moment, but rather an "aha" moment. It's no skin off my nose if you don't see it that way.


Ok , can you address the question then?
Thankinski


----------



## Gologit

Bwildered said:


> Ok , can you address the question then?
> Thankinski


 
The question has already been answered. It's been answered in great detail by several very experienced people, most of whom have been very patient with you and have gone to great lengths to explain their techniques. Everyone here has taken quite a bit of their time to try to help you. You don't seem to understand that.
You keep arguing with the very people who could...and have...answered your questions. I think people are tired of that. And of you. I don't blame them.
I don't think you're as obtuse as you pretend to be. At least, I hope you're not.

One last thought and then you're back on my IGNORE list. You seem to be another of those people who are looking for that magic falling formula... the one that says "if I do _this, _the tree will do_ that, _every tree, every time and without exception". It doesn't work like that. It never will. Trees don't understand formulas.

Good luck to you. I mean that.


----------



## Skeans

Gologit said:


> The question has already been answered. It's been answered in great detail by several very experienced people, most of whom have been very patient with you and have gone to great lengths to explain their techniques. Everyone here has taken quite a bit of their time to try to help you. You don't seem to understand that.
> You keep arguing with the very people who could...and have...answered your questions. I think people are tired of that. And of you. I don't blame them.
> I don't think you're as obtuse as you pretend to be. At least, I hope you're not.
> 
> One last thought and then you're back on my IGNORE list. You seem to be another of those people who are looking for that magic falling formula... the one that says "if I do _this, _the tree will do_ that, _every tree, every time and without exception". It doesn't work like that. It never will. Trees don't understand formulas.
> 
> Good luck to you. I mean that.


Trees are like women no two are exactly the same and they both make you scratch your head going what the heck just happened.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## Bwildered

Gologit said:


> The question has already been answered. It's been answered in great detail by several very experienced people, most of whom have been very patient with you and have gone to great lengths to explain their techniques. Everyone here has taken quite a bit of their time to try to help you. You don't seem to understand that.
> You keep arguing with the very people who could...and have...answered your questions. I think people are tired of that. And of you. I don't blame them.
> I don't think you're as obtuse as you pretend to be. At least, I hope you're not.
> 
> One last thought and then you're back on my IGNORE list. You seem to be another of those people who are looking for that magic falling formula... the one that says "if I do _this, _the tree will do_ that, _every tree, every time and without exception". It doesn't work like that. It never will. Trees don't understand formulas.
> 
> Good luck to you. I mean that.


You or anyone else hasn't come close to addressing any of my questions fully, let alone the last one, a good magician never reveals their secrets to the trick, that's how everyone knows it's a trick.
Drawings & diagrams describe just about every falling cuts there are , funny how you can't come up with one for yours.
Tankinski


----------



## madhatte

If a picture is worth a thousand words, and video films at 24 frames per second, and the average YouTube video posted here is around 5 minutes... well, dammit, I left my calculator in my vest.


----------



## ArtB

_picture is worth a thousand words
_
Especially when the original post in this thread showed NOT a leaner tree, but a camera lean !


----------



## bitzer

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist...


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> You or anyone else hasn't come close to addressing any of my questions fully, let alone the last one, a good magician never reveals their secrets to the trick, that's how everyone knows it's a trick.
> Drawings & diagrams describe just about every falling cuts there are , funny how you can't come up with one for yours.
> Tankinski



you sound like a bit of a controlling person. "It has to be my way or the highway!" Let people explain how they want, not how you demand it; word for word.

I don't think anyone wants to take the time to draw you something because (this may be a bit of a stretch, but its how I feel) most people here think by now that you are full of CRA*.
How about you put up a diagram of what you interpret they are saying and we will help you out from there. And then you can go and try to do it on an actual tree. Show some initiative yourself and we can help you.
This is not "welfare falling" where we do all the work and you sit back and critique us. It should be your dime now.

If you don't show some initiative by now, then I suggest you stay quiet.
You are in the minority here by thinking it can't be done even after it was shown to you. All because you got something in your head you can't get rid of. And this is not the government where because you are a minority in anything that you will get special treatment. Although these guys have been more than gracious to you.
For that you should thank them instead of complaining.


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> You or anyone else hasn't come close to addressing any of my questions fully, let alone the last one, a good magician never reveals their secrets to the trick, that's how everyone knows it's a trick.
> Drawings & diagrams describe just about every falling cuts there are , funny how you can't come up with one for yours.
> Tankinski



A quick question to clear things up for folks and get down to brass tacks.

Pick one:

A. You interested in learning how to swing a tree more than 90 degrees.

B. You are interested in just trying to prove it can't be done.

(no answer is an automatic "B" for an answer)

If you have a "C" answer then state it too.


----------



## Bwildered

ArtB said:


> _picture is worth a thousand words
> _
> Especially when the original post in this thread showed NOT a leaner tree, but a camera lean !


Supposedly with 5 foot of head lean!
A cunning stunt, for stunning .........!
Thansk


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> you sound like a bit of a controlling person. "It has to be my way or the highway!" Let people explain how they want, not how you demand it; word for word.
> 
> I don't think anyone wants to take the time to draw you something because (this may be a bit of a stretch, but its how I feel) most people here think by now that you are full of CRA*.
> How about you put up a diagram of what you interpret they are saying and we will help you out from there. And then you can go and try to do it on an actual tree. Show some initiative yourself and we can help you.
> This is not "welfare falling" where we do all the work and you sit back and critique us. It should be your dime now.
> 
> If you don't show some initiative by now, then I suggest you stay quiet.
> You are in the minority here by thinking it can't be done even after it was shown to you. All because you got something in your head you can't get rid of. And this is not the government where because you are a minority in anything that you will get special treatment. Although these guys have been more than gracious to you.
> For that you should thank them instead of complaining.


It boils down to you roosters saying its possible & me saying it can't be possible because of the laws of gravity,
I'm not going to go out & attempt the impossible until I have a clear understanding of how it functions, you would have to question your values of safe work & teaching instruction methods to send someone out to do what seems an impossible task without the essential fundamentals being fully explained & especially when it has been repeatedly asked for.
Thansk


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist...


...... and could defy gravity!
Tranks


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> A quick question to clear things up for folks and get down to brass tacks.
> 
> Pick one:
> 
> A. You interested in learning how to swing a tree more than 90 degrees.
> 
> B. You are interested in just trying to prove it can't be done.
> 
> (no answer is an automatic "B" for an answer)
> 
> If you have a "C" answer then state it too.


A, who wouldn't want to do what seems impossible?
Fansk


----------



## KiwiBro

Jesus H, over 200 hundred replies.


----------



## scheffa

You keep going on about the laws of gravity, the trees in the videos posted did the tree fall to the ground like the law of gravity says it will?? Of course they did because fallers aren't magicians. All that's happened is these skilled fallers are using the force created by gravity to help them steer a tree. A strong wind can make a tree fall opposite the lean, so why can a series of complex well placed saw cuts influence the way that GRAVITY pulls a tree to the ground.
I have no idea on how these boys do what they do with a Dutchman, it is something I would like try. However I have placed wedges rocks etc in that face cut before to help steer a tree and I know for a fact that it works


----------



## Bwildered

scheffa said:


> You keep going on about the laws of gravity, the trees in the videos posted did the tree fall to the ground like the law of gravity says it will?? Of course they did because fallers aren't magicians. All that's happened is these skilled fallers are using the force created by gravity to help them steer a tree. A strong wind can make a tree fall opposite the lean, so why can a series of complex well placed saw cuts influence the way that GRAVITY pulls a tree to the ground.
> I have no idea on how these boys do what they do with a Dutchman, it is something I would like try. However I have placed wedges rocks etc in that face cut before to help steer a tree and I know for a fact that it works


Yes I do go on about gravity & quite simply it's an impossibility for a tree to fall 180' to its gravitational lean where the COG is beyond the stump line by cutting alone with no other assistance, nobody can draw or sketch it because it's impossible.
Stangst


----------



## scheffa

Bwildered said:


> Yes I do go on about gravity & quite simply it's an impossibility for a tree to fall 180' to its gravitational lean where the COG is beyond the stump line with no other assistance, nobody can draw or sketch it because it's impossible.
> Stangst



Sorry but I completely disagree, depending on the amount of lean it is entirely possible. Most people on here are tree cutters, not sketch artists or engineers


----------



## Bwildered

scheffa said:


> Sorry but I completely disagree, depending on the amount of lean it is entirely possible. Most people on here are tree cutters, not sketch artists or engineers


That excuse for not being able to draw it is worn out, I can't think of any falling cuts or methods that can't be drawn simply or understood as simply. It's a recognised teaching tool used in logging & every other industry, sometimes scratched on the ground in the dirt with a stick .
Step up to the plate & draw it then.
Tanks


----------



## bitzer

Gravity is not defied, it is used and makes it possible. 

One would need to draw multiple sketches as trying to cram everything that happens into one sketch would be utterly confusing and futile. I don't have the time to draw and scan in a bunch of diagrams because you are too much of a chicken **** to try it yourself. It's minds like yours that have held the world back. You just can't grasp what you don't understand. What makes you so special that you need your hand held from beginning to end? I learned how to do it from one video that doesnt even show it that well. I experimented. That's how theory is put to the test. Experimentation. Without it ideas are just floating on the breeze.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Gravity is not defied, it is used and makes it possible.
> 
> One would need to draw multiple sketches as trying to cram everything that happens into one sketch would be utterly confusing and futile. I don't have the time to draw and scan in a bunch of diagrams because you are too much of a chicken **** to try it yourself. It's minds like yours that have held the world back. You just can't grasp what you don't understand. What makes you so special that you need your hand held from beginning to end? I learned how to do it from one video that doesnt even show it that well. I experimented. That's how theory is put to the test. Experimentation. Without it ideas are just floating on the breeze.


more excuses, at least the dog ate it, or I left it at home hasn't come out yet
thansk


----------



## rwoods

KiwiBro said:


> Jesus H, over 200 hundred replies.



We're only half where there. Last sideways thread was 578 posts in when Bw kicked off his COG pitch. Through many twists and turns it finally died 400+ posts later. Ron


----------



## scheffa

Can someone who knows how to do a Dutchman please draw a small sketch to put this thing to rest


----------



## Westboastfaller

scheffa said:


> Can someone who knows how to do a Dutchman please draw a small sketch to put this thing to rest


Sure...can you be more specific?
Floating Dutchmen, Sailing Dutchmen? Blind Dutchmen? Double Dutch?....you get the idea


----------



## Rio95

I'll try. I know nothing of the soft dutchman, bar what has been stated in this thread and attached videos. However, due to Bwildered's persistence, i think i have a pretty good idea of what happens, due to the great explanations everyone has given.

Bitzer, Northman, Skeans, etc - please correct me if i have the wrong idea.

Edit: Is quite hard to show the movement in a 2d drawing. Near impossible. A little imagination will be needed, plus viewing the videos and explanations in this thread.


----------



## Bwildered

Rio95 said:


> I'll try. I know nothing of the soft dutchman, bar what has been stated in this thread and attached videos. However, due to Bwildered's persistence, i think i have a pretty good idea of what happens, due to the great explanations everyone has given.
> 
> Bitzer, Northman, Skeans, etc - please correct me if i have the wrong idea.
> 
> Edit: Is quite hard to show the movement in a 2d drawing. Near impossible. A little imagination will be needed, plus viewing the videos and explanations in this thread.


The drawing is near enough to be good enough, if you number the drawings L to R going down the page, when you get to # 10 the saw would pinch before getting anywhere near completing that cut, the only way that cut could be made is if the lean was going to the west, then it would pinch once the cuts overlapped as it does in all the videos.
Thansk


----------



## hseII

Or you palmed a wedge to keep the kerf from closing until you were finished with that cut.....

But what do I know. 

If you try hard enough, I'm sure you can find a reason not to get out of bed in the morning too.


----------



## Rio95

If you watch huskstihl's video, the saw does pinch. No one said it won't. The video at the start of this thread shows them inserting a wedge to prevent this as hsell says. The wedge isn't palmed very tight, and it doesn't need much movement to start it going.


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> Or you palmed a wedge to keep the kerf from closing until you were finished with that cut.....
> 
> But what do I know.
> 
> If you try hard enough, I'm sure you can find a reason not to get out of bed in the morning too.


In that case the tree would fall to the north east, perpendicular from what's left of the hinge to the point where the wedge is inserted. That would be about 45' from the lean to the north.
Thansk


----------



## Bwildered

Rio95 said:


> If you watch huskstihl's video, the saw does pinch. No one said it won't. The video at the start of this thread shows them inserting a wedge to prevent this as hsell says. The wedge isn't palmed very tight, and it doesn't need much movement to start it going.


You can't see any wedge in the first video, in that chaps other videos he had an axe or a wedge loosely resting in the cut as an indicator of which way the tree was going, if it had sat down on it he would have stopped cutting & driven the wedge in to get it to fall in the intended direction, if there was still any hinge left on the far side from him.
Tranks


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> In that case the tree would fall to the north east, perpendicular from what's left of the hinge to the point where the wedge is inserted.
> Thansk



I didn't say wedge it over, I said palm a wedge: stick it in the kerf to keep it from pinching your bar.


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> You can't see any wedge in the first video, in that chaps other videos he had an axe or a wedge loosely resting in the cut as an indicator of which way the tree was going, if it had sat down on it he would have stopped cutting & driven the wedge in to get it to fall in the intended direction, if there was still any hinge left on the far side from him.
> Tranks



So what's the problem?


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> I didn't say wedge it over, I said palm a wedge: stick it in the kerf to keep it from pinching your bar.


Neither did I , if you were mad enough to keep cutting the hinge off from the low side with a wedge holding the kerf open, when the opposite side hinge was gone the tree would come over the top of you!
Tranks


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> Neither did I , if you were mad enough to keep cutting the hinge off from the low side with a wedge holding the kerf open, when the opposite side hinge was gone the tree would come over the top of you!
> Tranks



Do You Promise?


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> Do You Promise?


Id hold the camera if you were mad enough to do it!
Stanks


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> Id hold the camera if you were mad enough to do it!
> Stanks



Please show me with a diagram. 

I don't Understand. 

That's not how it works here.

I've not done it that way.



Again, please share a diagram.


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> Please show me with a diagram.
> 
> I don't Understand.
> 
> That's not how it works here.
> 
> I've not done it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, please share a diagram.


Now imagine you cutting the hinge away from the right hand side of the E, once it sits on your wedge then all the hinge is totally in tension, keep on cutting until the hinge is gone on the west side there is nothing to stop the tree falling over the top of you, if your mad enough to do something like that I'd be game enough to video it, I'd even give you a cardboard box to put the pieces of the smashed saw into as well.
Thanski


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 513543
> 
> Now imagine you cutting the hinge away from the right hand side of the E, once it sits on your wedge then all the hinge is totally in tension, keep on cutting until the hinge is gone on the west side there is nothing to stop the tree falling over the top of you, if your mad enough to do something like that I'd be game enough to video it, I'd even give you a cardboard box to put the pieces of the smashed saw into as well.
> Thanski



Ain't nobody said nothing bout cutting all the hinge wood.


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> Ain't nobody said nothing bout cutting all the hinge wood.


Neither did I, but once it was gone on the far side & released the tension wood where the overlapping cuts were made, you'd have to run away as it fell towards you, pivoting around the remaining part of the hinge left on the east side. Your saw would be jammed & would have to left behind & more than likely smashed into the dirt.
Fankski


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> Neither did I, but once it was gone on the far side & released the tension wood where the overlapping cuts were made, you'd have to run away as it fell towards you, pivoting around the remaining part of the hinge left on the east side. Your saw would be jammed & would have to left behind & more than likely smashed into the dirt.
> Fankski



You are FOS.


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> You are FOS.


And you have confirmed you're a cafe' logger!
Thanski


----------



## Rio95

how would it fall towards you. you would be standing on the E side of the tree, and the trees COG, since that's what your always concerned about, is to the N. If anything goes wrong with this, the tree will fall to the N side. That would only happen if you did not leave enough holding wood on the E side, and it broke prematurely. If you know so much about COG, this should be plainly obvious.


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> And you have confirmed you're a cafe' logger!
> Thanski



BaHaHaHaHa. 

I'll have to look that up.

At least you didn't deny.


----------



## northmanlogging

I'm thinkin that dude is to ****ing dumb to be a troll... most trolls would have bogged off by now... ole BW seems to just keeping beating his-self up over it... 

The ignore function on AS is really superb by the way...


----------



## Westboastfaller

hseII said:


> BaHaHaHaHa.
> 
> I'll have to look that up.
> 
> At least you didn't deny.


 haha.. Ally is calling you a livingroon cutter.


----------



## hseII

Westboastfaller said:


> haha.. Ally is calling you a livingroon cutter.



Yeah, that's me.


----------



## hseII

I have brought saws into the living room, but only to wrench on them when I didn't have the means to do it outside.


----------



## Westboastfaller

hseII said:


> I have brought saws into the living room, but only to wrench on them when I didn't have the means to do it outside.


Lol..Someone that talks the talk.

*Wrenching saws in the livingroom: yeah..me too. That just makes us rednecks..ha-ha.

"Cafe cutter".... I like it


----------



## northmanlogging

hseII said:


> I have brought saws into the living room, but only to wrench on them when I didn't have the means to do it outside.



I'm only allowed to bring them in the house when new. 

She did let me wear my new caulks in the house as long as I didn't leave carpet... so pretty much just the living room. But I did spend most of the evening with them on!


----------



## Westboastfaller

northmanlogging said:


> I'm thinkin that dude is to ****ing dumb to be a troll... most trolls would have bogged off by now... ole BW seems to just keeping beating his-self up over it...
> 
> The ignore function on AS is really superb by the way...


It's just more of the Devil keeping Christianity in business.

BTW.. I'm just sitting back using all my polities and taking some of my father's advice. I believe it went like this:
" Son! If you have nothing nice to say then I suggest you just sit there and say nothing at all.
But since we are on the topic, I will have this to say. I specialize in meatball surgery.


----------



## Westboastfaller

northmanlogging said:


> I'm only allowed to bring them in the house when new.
> 
> She did let me wear my new caulks in the house as long as I didn't leave carpet... so pretty much just the living room. But I did spend most of the evening with them on!


LMFAO
That's just awesome!..too funny,
God bless her and you're the man!


----------



## Bwildered

Rio95 said:


> how would it fall towards you. you would be standing on the E side of the tree, and the trees COG, since that's what your always concerned about, is to the N. If anything goes wrong with this, the tree will fall to the N side. That would only happen if you did not leave enough holding wood on the E side, and it broke prematurely. If you know so much about COG, this should be plainly obvious.


Because you would be standing behind the top handle of the saw slightly (NE) , if you stand directly behind it (E) you get covered in sawdust & chips, once the hinge is gone on to the far side (W), the tree would try to fall to the (N) but because the hinge is still left on the (E) side it would pull the tree to the (NE) right where you would be standing. 
Thansk


----------



## Bwildered

northmanlogging said:


> I'm thinkin that dude is to ****ing dumb to be a troll... most trolls would have bogged off by now... ole BW seems to just keeping beating his-self up over it...
> 
> The ignore function on AS is really superb by the way...


I don't think I would ever put you on ignore, you are entertaining beyond your imagination!
Thansk


----------



## bitzer

Theres no way it could come back at you. At best it would fall over the back like Hsell said. You've undercut it with the kerfs and it has leaned out away from you. I've said it before and I'll say it again. At best you have a remedial knowledge of cutting timber. You're assuming things you have no experience with or have never attempted.


----------



## Westboastfaller

bitzer said:


> Theres no way it could come back at you. At best it would fall over the back like Hsell said. You've undercut it with the kerfs and it has leaned out away from you. I've said it before and I'll say it again. At best you have a remedial knowledge of cutting timber. You're assuming things you have no experience with or have never attempted.


Thank you
So just a review on what I have learned thus far.
A Café cutter is of an advanced level to a mere remedial cutter? Is this correct?


----------



## bitzer

Westboastfaller said:


> Thank you
> So just a review on what I have learned thus far.
> A Café cutter is of an advanced level to a mere remedial cutter? Is this correct?


Yes but they pale in comparison to a cheese cutter.


----------



## hseII

bitzer said:


> Yes but they pale in comparison to a cheese cutter.



Hail, Hail.


----------



## scallywag

Must be time for Foghorn Leghorn to make an appearance!


----------



## hseII

scallywag said:


> Must be time for Foghorn Leghorn to make an appearance!



We may be a bit green for the crocodile hunter spotting.


----------



## Westboastfaller

Lol..
"well I'll tell ya I'll tell ya boy, I ain't no chicken boy.
see that there in there boy? Now that.. now that there's a chicken boy. Your all confused boy. now I say I say pull your self together boy..I say pull your self together boy...now let's go get that chicken boy!


----------



## scallywag

.......Meaning, 14 pages, 260 posts.......


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Theres no way it could come back at you. At best it would fall over the back like Hsell said. You've undercut it with the kerfs and it has leaned out away from you. I've said it before and I'll say it again. At best you have a remedial knowledge of cutting timber. You're assuming things you have no experience with or have never attempted.


Outside fantasy world, trees fall towards the lean (N), the (S) part of the hinge is in tension across the stump, cutting from the (N) is cutting the compression wood & increasing the tension on the remaining hinge, the tree can't fall to the (W) because there is absolutely no compression there unless you're fantastically high on the 32:1 cloud of oil fumes you're breathing in, then anything is possible!
Thanski


----------



## hseII

Bwildered said:


> Outside fantasy world, trees fall towards the lean (N), the (S) part of the hinge is in tension across the stump, cutting from the (N) is cutting the compression wood & increasing the tension on the remaining hinge, the tree can't fall to the (W) because there is absolutely no compression there unless you're fantastically high on the 32:1 cloud of oil fumes you're breathing in, then anything is possible!
> Thanski









Go On..


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> Neither did I, but once it was gone on the far side & released the tension wood where the overlapping cuts were made, you'd have to run away as it fell towards you, pivoting around the remaining part of the hinge left on the east side. Your saw would be jammed & would have to left behind & more than likely smashed into the dirt.
> Fankski



All I can say is if you are standing under the lean of a tree when you nip the holding wood... You ain't no experienced faller. 

The science of gravity does not trump an experienced faller. A faller knows more about gravity than Newton did, because they work with it every day and know how to take it to the ragged edge.

Stop living out of theory, if we wanted to live life out of theory we would all go back to college and listen to teniered professors instead of living in the real world of experience


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> All I can say is if you are standing under the lean of a tree when you nip the holding wood... You ain't no experienced faller.
> 
> The science of gravity does not trump an experienced faller. A faller knows more about gravity than Newton did, because they work with it every day and know how to take it to the ragged edge.
> 
> Stop living out of theory, if we wanted to live life out of theory we would all go back to college and listen to teniered professors instead of living in the real world of experience


Now you're starting put it all together , nobody in their right mind would cut a tree leaning with the COG to the (N) that way with those cuts, if it was leaning & COG to the (W) of course you could as shown in the videos, which results in a 90' fall to the lean.
I own over 15,000 tonnes of standing timber which I can throw a rock & hit some of it off my verandah, of many types & species, it would take all of 2 minutes to find a leaning tree for someone show how they could smash a saw up in vain, I have a theodolite or plumb bob to verify the lean plus a camera to capture it all as well. Bring your own saw, little wooden cross & shovel, if you're quick you'll only have cover the saw a little with the shovel & plant the cross on it, if you're not quick enough there maybe a bigger hole needed to be dug!
Fanski


----------



## Bwildered

hseII said:


> Go On..


I like the continuing fantasy theme!
Chachinski


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> Now you're starting put it all together



Um... I was not agreeing with you but rather stating that you are not qualified to talk to us who have done it.

BTW, you talk about proof in videos that is not there with plum and all that...
In the very first video of this thread, if you can't see the lean of that tree you must not have much experience falling timber. Its not a tricky read.

You just have something in your mind that for whatever reason, you can't let go of that is keeping you from seeing reality, you need to let it go.


----------



## ArtB

In bwildered's defense,
_in the very first video of this thread, if you can't see the lean of that tree_
Or, if you cannot see that there is very LITTLE lean to that tree, you have not bothered to look at the background that indicates the CAMERA is what has the most 'lean' ? Either that, or every tree near that location has an identical lean.


----------



## bnmc98

Actually I see it very distinctly.
Especially compared to the two just to the right.
Belly lean is definitely toward the lowest small tree out in the lead opening where the brush is.
Then you add canopy weight, to me it is not just a "very LITTLE" lean but a very evident lean.
watch again when he shows where he will fall it and then pans back to the tree from further away. Camera is not tilted, and the lean is very evident.
Then again I am used to looking at fir and tree lean, which was my point in my post. not saying that i'm something special but someone that has put enough wood on the ground should be able to spot lean fairly well without a plumb.

He's the one that wanted to turn this into some scientific experiment at our expense. So if thats the case he can set up the control and variables and test it himself in his lab and write his documented exact findings on his dime not mine. I already know it works.


----------



## northmanlogging

Bwildered said:


> Now you're starting put it all together , nobody in their right mind would cut a tree leaning with the COG to the (N) that way with those cuts, if it was leaning & COG to the (W) of course you could as shown in the videos, which results in a 90' fall to the lean.
> I own over 15,000 tonnes of standing timber which I can throw a rock & hit some of it off my verandah, of many types & species, it would take all of 2 minutes to find a leaning tree for someone show how they could smash a saw up in vain, I have a theodolite or plumb bob to verify the lean plus a camera to capture it all as well. Bring your own saw, little wooden cross & shovel, if you're quick you'll only have cover the saw a little with the shovel & plant the cross on it, if you're not quick enough there maybe a bigger hole needed to be dug!
> Fanski


so about 350 loads of logs dependind on spiecies, at 15 loads to the acre about 25 acres... or in laymens terms anout 6 weeks of work for a full logging crew.
. in other words yer just a small fry home owner that read some books on cuttin fyrewood and miiling a few boards now and then. A far cry from a proffessional cutter and someone that needs to learn to listen instaed of relying on your questionable experience and biased opionions.

Many experienced proffessional cutters have chimed in here and told you in many diffeent ways it can be done and how. Its time you either try it or shut the **** up.


----------



## Woos31

scallywag said:


> Must be time for Foghorn Leghorn to make an appearance!


Boy I say Boy, now looky here boy, yer uh cog-itatin up on muh nerves


----------



## Woos31

The faller wouldn't be standing under the side with the extra cuts made in the face undercut, nobody wants to stand where they're wanting to tree to start leaning toward in this case. Yes the tree can or may pinch the bar but only for a second as COG is changing because as it now leans west (using the diagrams posted earlier) away from the faller, the butt compresses the extra cuts and rolls down the undercut causing the top to swing around gaining momentum allowing more degrees of fall from 90* of the lean. No saws will be smashed in this process as it's slow to progress and the faller slowly releases more holding wood till eventually only a post is left holding on the east side of the stump where the faller is standing for the back cut. Said post is what pulls the top around in the swing and gains enough momentum that the remaining fibers shear and the tree can jump off the stump several feet away as shown in one of the first videos posted titled soft Dutchman and ultra soft Dutchman. You've asked, many many people have politly responded more than once and proven possible with explaination, video, and diagram and you still don't wanna see that it can be done. So just keep on takin em with the lean or 90* to it and we'll keep on swingin em the rest the way. Can't be explained any better than it already has


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> Actually I see it very distinctly.
> Especially compared to the two just to the right.
> Belly lean is definitely toward the lowest small tree out in the lead opening where the brush is.
> Then you add canopy weight, to me it is not just a "very LITTLE" lean but a very evident lean.
> watch again when he shows where he will fall it and then pans back to the tree from further away. Camera is not tilted, and the lean is very evident.
> Then again I am used to looking at fir and tree lean, which was my point in my post. not saying that i'm something special but someone that has put enough wood on the ground should be able to spot lean fairly well without a plumb.
> 
> He's the one that wanted to turn this into some scientific experiment at our expense. So if thats the case he can set up the control and variables and test it himself in his lab and write his documented exact findings on his dime not mine. I already know it works.


As there are no references to plumb nobody can tell which way the tree is leaning as shown by pic 1 , but that tree is weighted to the near side left with branches & the trunk does a dogleg bend out that way as well, which shifts the COG in that direction by cantilever weight, the second pic shows the direction of that weight to his saw, which is around 10' to 20' from where the saw tip is pointed, pic 3 clearly shows the branch weight & dogleg bend above the saw position as he panned up & down the tree from the same spot & there isn't nearly any weight on the other side of the tree on the opposite side of the saw.
Tranks


----------



## Bwildered

northmanlogging said:


> so about 350 loads of logs dependind on spiecies, at 15 loads to the acre about 25 acres... or in laymens terms anout 6 weeks of work for a full logging crew.
> . in other words yer just a small fry home owner that read some books on cuttin fyrewood and miiling a few boards now and then. A far cry from a proffessional cutter and someone that needs to learn to listen instaed of relying on your questionable experience and biased opionions.
> 
> Many experienced proffessional cutters have chimed in here and told you in many diffeent ways it can be done and how. Its time you either try it or shut the **** up.


I wish it was only 25 acres then I wouldn't have to pay as much taxes, but any way I own that many & a lot more & only have to walk out the door to do it, which I do on a very regular basis to keep me going, which is a far cry from pushing out 3 loads a day every day to keep a mill going with a half dozen guys milling flat out. You're showing you know jack about me & gravity too!
Thansk


----------



## Westboastfaller

I'll go 600kg per m3. X 40 m3 per load =24000 kg. Round of to 25,000 kg per load = 25 metric tonne.
4 loads is 100 metric tonne
40 loads to 1000 Tonne x 15
= 600 loads 24,000 m3. That could be 20-25 man days falling per 1000 m3 here. I would assume Aussie wood is a bit heavier.
Northman likes metric, he told me... lol. Or you can go 35lb per cu ft
X 35 cu ft to = I cu metre (m3) 2.7 m3 = I cunit or 1200 mbf


----------



## bnmc98

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 514023
> View attachment 514016
> View attachment 514015
> 
> As there are no references to plumb nobody can tell which way the tree is leaning as shown by pic 1 , but that tree is weighted to the near side left with branches & the trunk does a dogleg bend out that way as well, which shifts the COG in that direction by cantilever weight, the second pic shows the direction of that weight to his saw, which is around 10' to 20' from where the saw tip is pointed, pic 3 clearly shows the branch weight & dogleg bend above the saw position as he panned up & down the tree from the same spot & there isn't nearly any weight on the other side of the tree on the opposite side of the saw.
> Tranks



Nope
try again
lean is about 60 degrees to the right of where that saw tip is pointing (approximately)

It would fall the direction you are saying because it is less than 90 from the lean, but thats not the lean, which is why he's taking it around past 90 to fall it in the lead and the whole point of his video.


----------



## bnmc98

IMO it is actually almost the perfect scenario for a swing.
It has a slight "bent" twards downhill so once it gets going toward the lean (top kerf) it settles on the second kerf real nice. Then the momentum of it swinging through downhill carried it perfectly past 90 and it fell right where he wanted it.

Thats what i see


----------



## 1270d

These threads are kind of fun, because you know if the instigator had access to timber to cut he would have tried swinging a few by now. I don't saw for a living and would still try it if I had this much effort invested in an online argument. You can usually tell who the posers and trolls are.... good times boys.


----------



## northmanlogging

Westboastfaller said:


> I'll go 600kg per m3. X 40 m3 per load =24000 kg. Round of to 25,000 kg per load = 25 metric tonne.
> 4 loads is 100 metric tonne
> 40 loads to 1000 Tonne x 15
> = 600 loads 24,000 m3. That could be 20-25 man days falling per 1000 m3 here. I would assume Aussie wood is a bit heavier.
> Northman likes metric, he told me... lol. Or you can go 35lb per cu ft
> X 35 cu ft to = I cu metre (m3) 2.7 m3 = I cunit or 1200 mbf



I think my exact words where, "I ****ing hate metric" but that is unrelated in that a metric ton is like 2250 pounds or some **** and an american ton is 2000 pounds so you loose about 2 tons to a load of logs big ****ing deal, that what one decent fir log.


----------



## hseII

northmanlogging said:


> I think my exact words where, "I ****ing hate metric" but that is unrelated in that a metric ton is like 2250 pounds or some **** and an american ton is 2000 pounds so you loose about 2 tons to a load of logs big ****ing deal, that what one decent fir log.



Yall's aluminum axe holders: do you buy or make them? 

I'd like some info on them either way, if you have time, please.


----------



## northmanlogging

hseII said:


> Yall's aluminum axe holders: do you buy or make them?
> 
> I'd like some info on them either way, if you have time, please.



Grizzly peak industries, google aluminium axe scabbard be like the first 5 that come up, Though I got mine at Wood's in Sedro Woolley. Madsen's I hear carries them as well.


----------



## hseII

northmanlogging said:


> Grizzly peak industries, google aluminium axe scabbard be like the first 5 that come up, Though I got mine at Wood's in Sedro Woolley. Madsen's I hear carries them as well.



Thank You.


----------



## northmanlogging

By the way...

I used to drag my axe around shoved through the wedge belt, scabbard way better, keeps the handle up and out of the way, little weird to get used to the weight at first but not horrible.

Saw smacks the axe around a bit when carrying over the shoulder but a little readjustment and all is well.


----------



## Westboastfaller

It's hard to say. Yes it looks like it could be leaning down at fallers view 60° from bar tip.
But the shot where he says (shows) where he will lay it then back to the tree dosen't mean $hit from that angle if you were standing there yourself. If you were at the bottom of the hill looking up straight on at the tree and
all the trees look straight but the top of this one looks to be closer to the trees on the lookers left by a long shot then guess what. ..that dosen't mean $hit either because you can't judge a tree from the bottom, it will prove to be an illusion from there too. There is only one place you can get a good read from on a hill and that's directly behind the tree with no saplings in the way. About
5 1/2" to the fallers right flank and 3 more ft back.
That wasn't the money shot. Close though.


----------



## HuskStihl

hseII said:


> Thank You.


You're welcome!


----------



## Bwildered

Westboastfaller said:


> I'll go 600kg per m3. X 40 m3 per load =24000 kg. Round of to 25,000 kg per load = 25 metric tonne.
> 4 loads is 100 metric tonne
> 40 loads to 1000 Tonne x 15
> = 600 loads 24,000 m3. That could be 20-25 man days falling per 1000 m3 here. I would assume Aussie wood is a bit heavier.
> Northman likes metric, he told me... lol. Or you can go 35lb per cu ft
> X 35 cu ft to = I cu metre (m3) 2.7 m3 = I cunit or 1200 mbf


It goes 1000 to 1200 kg / m3 for the eucalyptus, 22 m3 to the load, I've done a few basal area plots & my estimate is very conservative. We don't clear fell on private property unless it's a plantation, so the forest is dotted with millable & immature trees, we have to leave at least 16 m2 / Ha basal area standing after selective logging.
Stanks


----------



## Bwildered

bnmc98 said:


> Nope
> try again
> lean is about 60 degrees to the right of where that saw tip is pointing (approximately)
> 
> It would fall the direction you are saying because it is less than 90 from the lean, but thats not the lean, which is why he's taking it around past 90 to fall it in the lead and the whole point of his video.


Very imaginative!
Sasinski


----------



## Bwildered

1270d said:


> These threads are kind of fun, because you know if the instigator had access to timber to cut he would have tried swinging a few by now. I don't saw for a living and would still try it if I had this much effort invested in an online argument. You can usually tell who the posers and trolls are.... good times boys.


I suppose the only reason I wouldn't have access to leaning timber is if I couldn't get out of bed to cut ones like that down in my jammies! 10 meters from the house yard!
Chinski


----------



## scheffa

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 514093
> 
> I suppose the only reason I wouldn't have access to leaning timber is if I couldn't get out of bed to cut ones like that down in my jammies! 10 meters from the house yard!
> Chinski


That tree is more than 10m away


----------



## bnmc98

Westboastfaller said:


> It's hard to say. Yes it looks like it could be leaning down at fallers view 60° from bar tip.
> But the shot where he says (shows) where he will lay it then back to the tree dosen't mean $hit from that angle if you were standing there yourself. If you were at the bottom of the hill looking up straight on at the tree and
> all the trees look straight but the top of this one looks to be closer to the trees on the lookers left by a long shot then guess what. ..that dosen't mean $hit either because you can't judge a tree from the bottom, it will prove to be an illusion from there too. There is only one place you can get a good read from on a hill and that's directly behind the tree with no saplings in the way. About
> 5 1/2" to the fallers right flank and 3 more ft back.
> That wasn't the money shot. Close though.



To me it looks very evident, but that is to me... maybe I opened a can of worms.
At any respect
The fact of the matter is you really have to take the fallers word for it who was there and cutting the tree, which, he is not will to do with him or anyone here, let alone watch the evidence in the other videos that were created. 

So... It really seems like its just a smug game to him now....


----------



## Bwildered

scheffa said:


> That tree is more than 10m away


Deceiving isn't it!
Can't fool the plumb bob though!
Tratinski


----------



## hseII

HuskStihl said:


> You're welcome!




I'm sure you'll like the attention you get with your new PT Cruiser. 

Congratulations!!


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> Madsen's I hear carries them as well.



That's where I got mine but I went right back to carrying the axe in my belt. The scabbard is in the day pack for my linegear, right below the fusees. I use it as a rigging bag mostly because as an engine guy I'm seldom far enough from the truck to need to carry so much as a lunch. I don't clip the bag into the linegear very often at all. It's just shelter and camelbak most of the time.


----------



## 1270d

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 514093
> 
> I suppose the only reason I wouldn't have access to leaning timber is if I couldn't get out of bed to cut ones like that down in my jammies! 10 meters from the house yard!
> Chinski


swing it friend


----------



## Westboastfaller

Bwildered said:


> It goes 1000 to 1200 kg / m3 for the eucalyptus, 22 m3 to the load, I've done a few basal area plots & my estimate is very conservative. We don't clear fell on private property unless it's a plantation, so the forest is dotted with millable & immature trees, we have to leave at least 16 m2 / Ha basal area standing after selective logging.
> Stanks


Not totally surprised that some of it would be so heavy
BTW, What is the volume or thickness of a metre square (m2)? I'm thinking one Dec ??(Decimeter)


----------



## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 514093
> 
> I suppose the only reason I wouldn't have access to leaning timber is if I couldn't get out of bed to cut ones like that down in my jammies! 10 meters from the house yard!
> Chinski


The thing you keep forgetting in swinging a tree 180 from the lean, the tree has to be fairly well balanced overall. The more lean/top wieght the less you will be able to swing it. I'm not walking on water here. Gravity and momentum and the strength of the wood are what I use. It takes years to figure out how to manipulate a tree in such a way. It starts with one Reggie. I think you've got all the info you need now. You're ready. Make sure you pack some clean shorts though. Seems like you'll need em.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> The thing you keep forgetting in swinging a tree 180 from the lean, the tree has to be fairly well balanced overall. The more lean/top wieght the less you will be able to swing it. I'm not walking on water here. Gravity and momentum and the strength of the wood are what I use. It takes years to figure out how to manipulate a tree in such a way. It starts with one Reggie. I think you've got all the info you need now. You're ready. Make sure you pack some clean shorts though. Seems like you'll need em.


Yes I know that the tree has to be well balanced for your method to be possible, with the COG on the stump, then you can fall it in just about any direction, a tall tree with 5' of lean....... no way known is 180' possible opposite the lean, the tree I showed previous with the lean to the plumbob, is totally 100% impossible to be able to be felled 180' against the lean with only a soft Dutchman cut, that tree will be reserved for anybody who thinks they can. 
Tatinski


----------



## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> Yes I know that the tree has to be well balanced for your method to be possible, with the COG on the stump, then you can fall it in just about any direction, a tall tree with 5' of lean....... no way known is 180' possible opposite the lean, the tree I showed previous with the lean to the plumbob, is totally 100% impossible to be able to be felled 180' against the lean with only a soft Dutchman cut, that tree will be reserved for anybody who thinks they can.
> Tatinski


It's too bad I will never get there. I'd love to show you how far I could swing that tree.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> It's too bad I will never get there. I'd love to show you how far I could swing that tree.


If you could get that tree of mine to fall 180' to the lean, you could easily teleport yourself over here in an instant to show us how it's done, if you didn't get it right first go , you could go back in time & give it another go to save face, nobody would be none the wiser!
Sasinski


----------



## bitzer

Bwildered said:


> If you could get that tree of mine to fall 180' to the lean, you could easily teleport yourself over here in an instant to show us how it's done, if you didn't get it right first go , you could go back in time & give it another go to save face, nobody would be none the wiser!
> Sasinski


Not every tree can be turned 180 Reggie. You're a very literal man. I think you need to eat some cactus and hang out with the Aborigines for a while.


----------



## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Not every tree can be turned 180 Reggie. You're a very literal man. I think you need to eat some cactus and hang out with the Aborigines for a while.


From what you were saying, I was reading it as though you could turn that tree I posted a picture of that's all, I don't mind some cactus juice on the odd occasion & have chased the locals around & vice versa!
Tranks


----------



## rwoods

Bw, please report back the results. If some cactus and a little hang time with the Aborigines is all it will take to straighten you out, then I may try it myself. Ron


----------



## Bwildered

rwoods said:


> Bw, please report back the results. If some cactus and a little hang time with the Aborigines is all it will take to straighten you out, then I may try it myself. Ron


I was waiting for you to show me how it was done with all the info, like first off the reference of the lean to a plum bob, then the cuts, you can just mark them in chalk to make it safer, I maybe silly, but not stupid enough to go out & do the impossible without some expert Internet guidance first.
The diagram that was given before was a good example of cutting the tension wood & then the impossibility of the tree falling over cut tension wood!
Slasinski


----------



## rwoods

Bw, I didn't say anything about falling any tree. Just figured if bitzer's advice could straighten you out then I ought to try it too. A little levity is good for the soul. Ron


----------



## scheffa

This method also works for swing limbs.
I got to try the Dutchman today when remota large limb heading for a fence. 
Put a bit of a Dutchman in with my scarf and she twisted beautifully missing the fence by a mile.

Cheers to everyone for their input on the subject


----------



## Hddnis

I've swung a tree over 180°

I had no idea that internet engineers had proven it couldn't be done.

It was mostly showing off that I could. But it was satisfying to land it right where I wanted it. I swung it around a keep tree on a country estate. Ground was wide open lawn and if anything went wrong with swinging the tree it didn't matter. Big fat P. pine with a moderate lean. It was fully committed to the fall as it crossed 90°, but with the holding wood and the kerfs just right it came swinging on around, it was about half-way to the ground as it crossed 160° and it rolled about a quarter turn on touch-down, that shows how it was momentum and gravity doing the work.

A smart man learns the laws of nature and works with them to accomplish his goals.

Most of the time I only swing in the 70-120° range. Just rarely have the need to do more than that, only do it to save pounding wedges and because it's fun as heck to do it.

I've had people call it black magic, voodoo, claim I had rockets in the top, used a tractor beam, "it was an illusion", but the technique is fairly well known around here, usually firewood cutters that can't believe what they just saw. 

On smaller trees, say 8-14", too big to just push over against the lean, I'll use my climbing saw because the kerf is narrower. Those little trees sometimes don't seem to work with the wider kerf of 3/8 chain, can't swing them as much. That is where it really helps, you can't get a wedge in those little trees.

But then I don't believe people who say they've been probed by aliens in the outback against their "lean".


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## Bwildered

Hddnis said:


> I've swung a tree over 180°
> 
> I had no idea that internet engineers had proven it couldn't be done.
> 
> It was mostly showing off that I could. But it was satisfying to land it right where I wanted it. I swung it around a keep tree on a country estate. Ground was wide open lawn and if anything went wrong with swinging the tree it didn't matter. Big fat P. pine with a moderate lean. It was fully committed to the fall as it crossed 90°, but with the holding wood and the kerfs just right it came swinging on around, it was about half-way to the ground as it crossed 160° and it rolled about a quarter turn on touch-down, that shows how it was momentum and gravity doing the work.
> 
> A smart man learns the laws of nature and works with them to accomplish his goals.
> 
> Most of the time I only swing in the 70-120° range. Just rarely have the need to do more than that, only do it to save pounding wedges and because it's fun as heck to do it.
> 
> I've had people call it black magic, voodoo, claim I had rockets in the top, used a tractor beam, "it was an illusion", but the technique is fairly well known around here, usually firewood cutters that can't believe what they just saw.
> 
> On smaller trees, say 8-14", too big to just push over against the lean, I'll use my climbing saw because the kerf is narrower. Those little trees sometimes don't seem to work with the wider kerf of 3/8 chain, can't swing them as much. That is where it really helps, you can't get a wedge in those little trees.
> 
> But then I don't believe people who say they've been probed by aliens in the outback against their "lean".


If you can't provide a video with the lean proven against a free hanging plumb bob & the tree falling 180' to the lean, it never happened.
Stankinski


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## rwoods

Bw, 

Good to see you are still with us. After two weeks of silence I was beginning to think some wild Aussie critter's venom had taken you and this thread out. Now that the fever has broke we can carry forward. 

In the interest of promoting global harmony by seeking common ground with due recognition of, and utmost regard for, regional differences, you do agree that theoretically our hypothetical perfect tree can be swung further clockwise in the northern hemisphere than in the southern hemisphere, and vice versa counter-clockwise? 

While you're pondering, let me also ask your thoughts on why do your folks get all the rugged and practical work trucks and all we can get here are wimpy overpriced four wheel sofas?

Ron


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## Bwildered

rwoods said:


> Bw,
> 
> Good to see you are still with us. After two weeks of silence I was beginning to think some wild Aussie critter's venom had taken you and this thread out. Now that the fever has broke we can carry forward.
> 
> In the interest of promoting global harmony by seeking common ground with due recognition of, and utmost regard for, regional differences, you do agree that theoretically our hypothetical perfect tree can be swung further clockwise in the northern hemisphere than in the southern hemisphere, and vice versa counter-clockwise?
> 
> While you're pondering, let me also ask your thoughts on why do your folks get all the rugged and practical work trucks and all we can get here are wimpy overpriced four wheel sofas?
> 
> Ron


I'm thinking there wouldn't be any noticeable falling effect whatever the hemisphere, our country is vast & fairly undeveloped with a lot of dirt roads & a small population, so we need practical vehicles outside suburbia
Fanks


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## rwoods

Practical answers to an absurd theoretical question and an overstated practical question. Where is the fun in that? We must think deeper and harder. And be more creative. Lest we never resolve our falling question.

Ron


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## Hddnis

Bwildered said:


> If you can't provide a video with the lean proven against a free hanging plumb bob & the tree falling 180' to the lean, it never happened.
> Stankinski




Your inability to comprehend the physics involved and the technique for harnessing the strengths of the tree, mating those two forces to accomplish a task, really says more about you than others.

There is skeptical and then there is hard headed, varying degrees of each of course, but at some point a bunch of people saying it is possible and others that can explain it in a way that is understood by professionals in the field indicates that we are in hard headed territory.

But here, I'll give you another little bit of help just in the name of fairness and international relations.

Clump of three trees, one on top left stays. Top right was an easy drop right into the lay. Bottom tree was leaning the wrong way and short way around won't work because of the keep tree. It could have been jacked, but that takes a good bit of time and a jack which was not on site. I could have swung it less, but if I set it between the stump and keep tree it was almost perfect for skidding toward the right bottom corner.

Black arrows show lean of each tree.
Long red arrow shows the path of travel that the very top of the tree followed, right out of the picture.
Blue lines show where it stopped.
As you can see the top movement only described about 180° but the final result was much farther off the lean. You can get the first 80° or so from the lean with almost no top movement toward the lean, heck just the face and a fat hold can give you that in a strong tree.

Initial top movement is consistent with the lean, meaning it goes where gravity is pulling it, but we stop one side and let the other drop a little bit more so we change the direction the tree is leaning and where gravity is now pulling. As we get into it we have sideways momentum that we can build on. We keep doing this until the tree points the way we want it to go. Done right it happens smoothly and softly, you shock load with a bad cut and you tear out your holding wood.


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## madhatte

rwoods said:


> While you're pondering, let me also ask your thoughts on why do your folks get all the rugged and practical work trucks and all we can get here are wimpy overpriced four wheel sofas?



Would you believe it's all about a cold-war era beef with what would become the EU over the price of chicken?


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## Bwildered

Hddnis said:


> Your inability to comprehend the physics involved and the technique for harnessing the strengths of the tree, mating those two forces to accomplish a task, really says more about you than others.
> 
> There is skeptical and then there is hard headed, varying degrees of each of course, but at some point a bunch of people saying it is possible and others that can explain it in a way that is understood by professionals in the field indicates that we are in hard headed territory.
> 
> But here, I'll give you another little bit of help just in the name of fairness and international relations.
> 
> Clump of three trees, one on top left stays. Top right was an easy drop right into the lay. Bottom tree was leaning the wrong way and short way around won't work because of the keep tree. It could have been jacked, but that takes a good bit of time and a jack which was not on site. I could have swung it less, but if I set it between the stump and keep tree it was almost perfect for skidding toward the right bottom corner.
> 
> Black arrows show lean of each tree.
> Long red arrow shows the path of travel that the very top of the tree followed, right out of the picture.
> Blue lines show where it stopped.
> As you can see the top movement only described about 180° but the final result was much farther off the lean. You can get the first 80° or so from the lean with almost no top movement toward the lean, heck just the face and a fat hold can give you that in a strong tree.
> 
> Initial top movement is consistent with the lean, meaning it goes where gravity is pulling it, but we stop one side and let the other drop a little bit more so we change the direction the tree is leaning and where gravity is now pulling. As we get into it we have sideways momentum that we can build on. We keep doing this until the tree points the way we want it to go. Done right it happens smoothly and softly, you shock load with a bad cut and you tear out your holding wood.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 517730


The physics says it can't happen when the COG is beyond the stump, but you really should have videoed it with a plumb bob for lean reference, it would make it really believable, until then it never happened & it's just another unbelievable fishing story


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## bitzer

Still too much of a ***** to try it for yourself huh? It's amazing you even run a chainsaw. That's gotta be on the threshold of danger for you.


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## Bwildered

bitzer said:


> Still too much of a ***** to try it for yourself huh? It's amazing you even run a chainsaw. That's gotta be on the threshold of danger for you.


A bit like a plumb bob to you guys! Ha ha
Here's a 5.5 meter head of a log that I miraculously fell with a saw & cut up today, I'm lucky I got out alive!
Slashinski


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## Hddnis

A fishing story defies logic and is without basis in common experience.

Swinging a tree around to fall against the lean is both logical and has been experiences by many people.

So not a fish story, more like a fish that doesn't believe there are creatures that live out of the water because he's never seen them.

You've been shown video, given diagrams, had it explained over and over and you still dismiss it. That means you are the one failing here.


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## rwoods

scheffa said:


> This method also works for swing limbs.
> I got to try the Dutchman today when remota large limb heading for a fence.
> Put a bit of a Dutchman in with my scarf and she twisted beautifully missing the fence by a mile.
> 
> Cheers to everyone for their input on the subject



Your post has pulled me back into the fray as it is a practical illustration of the phenomenon that almost everyone who has limbed a standing tree has experienced. Uninhibited gravity would dictate that the limb should fall straight down. But the cut and resulting hinge alters the course.

Two videos for Bw's viewing. You don't need to watch either to the end to get the point that falling direction can be controlled and momentum can be leveraged. They also illustrate that many of us have more than enough idle time.

 

Ron


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## KiwiBro

Bwildered said:


> View attachment 517795
> 
> A bit like a plumb bob to you guys! Ha ha
> Here's a 5.5 meter head of a log that I miraculously fell with a saw & cut up today, I'm lucky I got out alive!
> Slashinski


Model 8 Lucas? Am saving for a 10-30. Was there much tension in that log?


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## Bwildered

KiwiBro said:


> Model 8 Lucas? Am saving for a 10-30. Was there much tension in that log?


Yes it's a 8-27, there's always tension in SBG, the end cracks tell the story, I was getting 40mm spring in the timber I got out of it.
Thanskinski


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## KiwiBro

Bwildered said:


> there's always tension in SBG


for giggles:


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## Bwildered

KiwiBro said:


> for giggles:
> View attachment 517935


The best boomerangs are made out of it
Stanks


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## johnhunts

.


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