# Heli-loggers



## AOD (Mar 22, 2009)

I think this show is worthy of it's own thread. These guys really know their stuff and I like how much the show focuses on climbing and felling techniques and less on drama. I think the regulations are a bit over the top and nitpicky, the guys being audited on every little detail and aspect of their jobs seems excessive to me. I know it's all in the name of safety and whatnot but good grief, enough is enough, let the guys do their friggin job! 

Anybody else like this show?


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## BuddhaKat (Mar 22, 2009)

I sure did. I especially liked the fact that this last episode of Heli-Loggers spent 50 minutes focusing on logging technique and 10 minutes on helicopters. This is a well structured and informative show.


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## AOD (Mar 22, 2009)

I like how Heli Loggers is about guys climbing trees and topping them off, and then felling them the old school way, where as American Loggers is just feller-bunchers, skidders and log trucks. There is a bit of a difference between an true logger and an equipment operator.


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## slowp (Mar 22, 2009)

AOD said:


> I like how Heli Loggers is about guys climbing trees and topping them off, and then felling them the old school way, where as American Loggers is just feller-bunchers, skidders and log trucks. There is a bit of a difference between an true logger and an equipment operator.



Ruh roh.opcorn:


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## tomtrees58 (Mar 22, 2009)

:agree2:tom, trees


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## AOD (Mar 22, 2009)

slowp said:


> Ruh roh.opcorn:



*hides*


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 22, 2009)

AOD said:


> There is a bit of a difference between an true logger and an equipment operator.




Really what would that difference be?


Owl


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## AOD (Mar 22, 2009)

Spotted Owl said:


> Really what would that difference be?
> 
> 
> Owl



One sits in a cab and uses joysticks, not unlike a video game, while the other is out in the woods with a saw, climbing gear, etc, felling and bucking timber in a much more "hands-on" manner.


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## Rescue1 (Mar 23, 2009)

AOD I agree completely,however in no way knock an equipment operator because that's a hard job within itself.But I will say that American loggers show is so boring I can't stand it.And to the safety standards on the Heli Show,give me a break....:greenchainsaw:


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## forestryworks (Mar 23, 2009)

AOD said:


> There is a bit of a difference between an true logger and an equipment operator.



There are _skilled_ equipment operators, ya know...
that's why most of them are still working.


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## sawyerloggingon (Mar 23, 2009)

I started running skidder at 19, Cat 518 fixed grapple. Snow and rain blew in and in the summer I would come home looking like a coal miner and spitting dust. Bad summers I'd lay in bed at night and here a cool gurgeling sound in my lungs with every breath.You had to dodge joe pokes and if, I should say when you rolled a skidder you ran risk of being thrown out and smashed like a bug.Ahh the good ole days! These new age equipment operators with their enclosed cabs with heater, AC and even radios are not real loggers dangit. Toooooo easy!


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## thejdman04 (Mar 23, 2009)

I enjoy the show. Better then most of the crud on tv


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## 2dogs (Mar 23, 2009)

AOD said:


> I like how Heli Loggers is about guys climbing trees and topping them off, and then felling them the old school way, where as American Loggers is just feller-bunchers, skidders and log trucks. There is a bit of a difference between an true logger and an equipment operator.



What about those of us who do all that stuff. (I don't climb much these days.) I guess that makes me Super Logger.

This morning at five Super Logger woke up from the pain in my right wrist and my hand was numb and cold. I think I'll look for a piece of equipment to climb into. Some days even working the joysticks hurts.


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 23, 2009)

AOD said:


> One sits in a cab and uses joysticks, not unlike a video game, while the other is out in the woods with a saw, climbing gear, etc, felling and bucking timber in a much more "hands-on" manner.



You uh, you suppose they just hired them guys and tossed them on a machine do ya? Spend a lot of time in the woods do ya? Know exactly how logging and paying dues and working your way up through the ranks works huh. 

Wouldn't it be possible that those guys running the equipment actually spent some time in the brush, "with a saw, climbing gear, etc, felling and bucking timber in a much more "hands-on" manner"? Just like the kids they show are doing now. Them guys running the machines are shall we say not of the younger generation. I personally have never seen a guy on a machine that didn't put some dues in in the nasties and hard work in the brush that make a side go. Granted sometimes a hook or a rod is tight on people and young guys are on the sticks but for the most part thats rare. Some one has to run these machines, thats the way it works. Look at faces you see now, then look at faces in 15, 20, 25 years, I bet the young faces in the brush today will be the "equipment operator" tomorrow instead of the "true logger" you seem to be looking for.

Of coarse they may become the super logger like 2Dogs and many others that can do it all.

You are whatching one aspect of logging from one part of the country. Don't lump all logging into the same boat from what little you seem to see and take as fact from a television show. Until you spend some time on those sticks you will not understand how unlike a "video game" it reall is. How does it work in a video game, when you are in a rubber tire drum skidder working a turn, you have to turn the machine against the hill and the bead rolls off on the tire and the load shifts all at the same time.

Until you have worked the life of those "equipment operators" and know what it takes to get those "easy" jobs perhaps you should button it.


Owl


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## AOD (Mar 23, 2009)

Spotted Owl said:


> perhaps you should button it.
> 
> 
> Owl




No. 


All I am referring to is the difference between logging the old fashioned way and the way I see logging done around here. When they log here it's all done with fellers and skidders on flat ground, no guys on the ground, 100% machines, there are no "jobs in the brush" for the rookies, everyone is in a cab, and to me that seems to be not the same thing as guys felling with saws and working in the rigging setting chokers. Obviously you are too anal-retentive to realize where I am coming from and are far too hypersensitive about your own industry to accept a casual observation from an outsider and instead of trying to have a real discussion about it you rail against me and essentially tell me to shut up because I said something that made you uncomfortable. Oh please, grow some thick skin. I think your response is really more of a reflection of your own insecurity.


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## smokechase II (Mar 23, 2009)

*Heli-guys*

I like the show.

They do the greenhorn thing too much. Egos, I guess. Common in macho jobs.

They waste tops that are a lot of lumber as they high grade their way around the woods.

===========

But they are pretty good and it is interesting to watch.

Their fallers looked fine. Big stuff and the pressure of a clipboard and camera didn't phase them. 

***********

I do wish Canadians shouted and cursed more.

Makes you wonder what their country is coming to.


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## thejdman04 (Mar 24, 2009)

I think that green horn pilot if he didnt want to train with an experienced pilot and wanted to be a pilot would be packing his bags. He wrecked a chopper(i realize they had mechanical failure, but is it something he missed in the pre flight, would experience helped him land it better instead of crashing it?) and now doesnt want to be paid to be taught how to do it properly, I owuldnt want him on my payroll.


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## JCBearss (Mar 24, 2009)

TOTALLY 110% agree. What kind of pilot....let alone what would be a helicopter bush piolet who would need skills much higher than vertually any other whillybird pilot. His attitude should be evocking the worst in both the boss there and his trained pilot. WOW can not beleive they were both so calm and professional about such a lack luster performance by their employee


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 24, 2009)

AOD said:


> No.
> 
> 
> All I am referring to is the difference between logging the old fashioned way and the way I see logging done around here. When they log here it's all done with fellers and skidders on flat ground, no guys on the ground, 100% machines, there are no "jobs in the brush" for the rookies, everyone is in a cab, and to me that seems to be not the same thing as guys felling with saws and working in the rigging setting chokers. Obviously you are too anal-retentive to realize where I am coming from and are far too hypersensitive about your own industry to accept a casual observation from an outsider and instead of trying to have a real discussion about it you rail against me and essentially tell me to shut up because I said something that made you uncomfortable. Oh please, grow some thick skin. I think your response is really more of a reflection of your own insecurity.




There is no logging on this planet where it is totally 100% mechanized. There are jobs to be done that a machine can't do for a number of reasons. To many people I have worked with from that country have a different tale to tell about the work in that area.

I can't realize where you are comming from yet. Do you work in that/this industry? If you do I will take a step back and open my ear more than it is. If you don't there is no way that I will ever be able to see where you are comming from, because you don't know where you are comming form about this work. You can't know because you don't live off of it.

Hypersensitive about the industry, nope. Worried about the industry 100%.

Accepting casual observations from outsiders aren't welcome(from my stand point) when "observations" are made like this. Being an outsider you have no right to remark about the ability or lack of those in a job you know next to nothing about. Questions, wondering and why's, I have no problem with. I realize this was you opinion and you have that right. I also have the right to disagree with it when it is an ignorant(un/miss-informed) opinion stated as fact. Casual observations from ignorant outsiders have been a, if not the major down fall of the logging industry, global warming, spotted owl, salmon, nonrenewable, etc. The un/miss-informed public making opinions stated as fact has a tremendous negative impact on this industry. As I'm sure it would/does have in your industry when it happens.

Rail against you. Yup, and anyone else that would like to come along knowing nothing and making statments of the same caliber.

Real discussion, lets have'er. I open to a real disussion, so long as both sides(including me) are willing to be open minded to what is on the table. Agree or not explain and give the oportunity to explain why or why not. If you or I don't know or don't have the answer be man enough to say it. Lets discuss.

You saying something to make me uncomfortable. No. You saying something to make me upset. Yup.

Thick skin. Got'er, until you have been chewed by a 70+year old riggin worker you haven't seen anything yet. I have been thru butt chew'ins that would make many men, turn into a 5yr old thumb sucker curled up on the ground crying. My skin is thick than you may think.

Insecure about me. Not really. Insecure about the industry and what the future may have in store for it, and us working it. Very much so.


Owl


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## bowtechmadman (Mar 24, 2009)

Never had my ass chewed by a 70yr old riggin worker but have had it chewed by 6 Tactical Officers during OCS and watched the same ones turn many men into jello and a few crying by the time they dropped.
Anyhow I enjoy the show.


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## AOD (Mar 24, 2009)

Spotted Owl said:


> There is no logging on this planet where it is totally 100% mechanized. There are jobs to be done that a machine can't do for a number of reasons. To many people I have worked with from that country have a different tale to tell about the work in that area.



Like what? Turning wrenches? That's not logging, it's mechanical work. Every logging operation I see around here is 100% mechanized. It may hurt your ego to know there is a world outside your precious PNW.



Spotted Owl said:


> I can't realize where you are comming from yet. Do you work in that/this industry? If you do I will take a step back and open my ear more than it is. If you don't there is no way that I will ever be able to see where you are comming from, because you don't know where you are comming form about this work. You can't know because you don't live off of it.



Why do you care what I do for a living? Is my job supposed to make me a better person and shelter you from criticism? Also, learn to spell. 



Spotted Owl said:


> Hypersensitive about the industry, nope. Worried about the industry 100%.
> 
> Accepting casual observations from outsiders aren't welcome(from my stand point) when "observations" are made like this. Being an outsider you have no right to remark about the ability or lack of those in a job you know next to nothing about. Questions, wondering and why's, I have no problem with. I realize this was you opinion and you have that right. I also have the right to disagree with it when it is an ignorant(un/miss-informed) opinion stated as fact. Casual observations from ignorant outsiders have been a, if not the major down fall of the logging industry, global warming, spotted owl, salmon, nonrenewable, etc. The un/miss-informed public making opinions stated as fact has a tremendous negative impact on this industry. As I'm sure it would/does have in your industry when it happens.
> 
> ...



You claim to be thick skinned but you sure seem to have a hard time with a simple observation I made several days ago. I think you have a chip on your shoulder because of some crappy legislation that got passed umpteen years ago. You would think someone who has thick skin would shrug something like that off, but apparently not. In hindsight, people like you make me glad I voted for Obama.


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 25, 2009)

AOD said:


> Also, learn to spell.
> 
> In hindsight, people like you make me glad I voted for Obama.




The spelling card? That's what you have left? You win, I won't compete with that.

Obama. Obama. All I have for that is, "Mega Dittos" from the precious PNW.


Owl


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## JCBearss (Mar 25, 2009)

bowtechmadman said:


> Never had my ass chewed by a 70yr old riggin worker but have had it chewed by 6 Tactical Officers during OCS and watched the same ones turn many men into jello and a few crying by the time they dropped.
> Anyhow I enjoy the show.



Had to take this oppertunity. But OOOOOOO Tacofficer what did they do raise their voice to an uneasy tone. Have you make a power point presentation on the topic OOOOOOOO......come back when you have NCOs up your butt LOL


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2009)

Hokay, take a deep breath. I have worked in the woods here and there, before coming back home to here, was where it was pretty much mechanized.
BUT, every once in a while, the ground would get too steep for that equipment. What happened? The late 60s? year old grandfather did that ground. He did the handfalling, the line pulling and the skidding with a cat. The son and grandson stayed on the flat ground with the processor and forwarder.

Ran into a young guy who was running a processor for the first time, never worked in the woods before but had played video games. He was scarring up trees like crazy. I talked with him and explained how a hand faller creates openings and then falls to the openings. Someone who had logged by hand would probably have known to do this. His boss should have helped but then later I found scarred up trees again and the boss had decided to learn to run the machine. 

What really worried me was when it was -20 out and I'd see the guys in the cab in t-shirts, away from the road and they DIDN'T EVEN CARRY A COAT WITH THEM in case they broke down. One guy played with a video game while steering his forwarder back to the landing. 

Just a totally different world.


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## Burvol (Mar 25, 2009)

AOD said:


> Like what? Turning wrenches? That's not logging, it's mechanical work. Every logging operation I see around here is 100% mechanized. It may hurt your ego to know there is a world outside your precious PNW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Vomit.....I have noticed there are a fair share of people like you on AS that think they know a lot about our industry, contribute nothing but confusion, then justify their ignorance by saying crap like "Don't they?" or "I always thought...." 

You just flat out speak it! "I voted for the Black Jesus Guy". LOL

You will never find a fully mechanized side with zero hours of handwork, it is almost impossible. I have yet to see the picture perfect timber sale; no RMZ's, pancake flat, no brush, no ROCKS, no snags, and all perfect slick wood. There is a lot of work done by hand that involves falling around boundries, roads, and negotiating the above mentioned items. 

Perhaps these new shows make people think they have what it takes to do our work. I'm sure some do. But...for the most part, I think the general AS crowd would fold in less than a week on a tractor unit, and two days max on some of Oregon's finer High lead ground. If they didn't get dead first. 

"I got a picture of a 36" bar on a saw and list 10 saws in my signature, so I KNOW I could do your job....easy. Now I have to go back to the "Learn to hand file a chain, borecutting techniques, PPE, 361's, and what's scale??? thread."


*Go bottom feed in some other forum*. Owl (like many loggers here) takes pride in the art of logging, and is very helpful to those of us that actually know what we are discussing amongst ourselves.


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## Burvol (Mar 25, 2009)

AOD said:


> I like how Heli Loggers is about guys climbing trees and topping them off, and then felling them the old school way, where as American Loggers is just feller-bunchers, skidders and log trucks. There is a bit of a difference between an true logger and an equipment operator.



Appparantly you missed all the people that have been smashed and killed inside of equipment. I know someone who lost their life like that two years ago. You don't automatically get a "safe card" just because you sit behind plexy glass. You ever even seen a big tree or log?


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Appparantly you missed all the people that have been smashed and killed inside of equipment. I know someone who lost their life like that two years ago. You don't automatically get a "safe card" just because you sit behind plexy glass. You ever even seen a big tree or log?



Even "Up Nort" in da Wisconsin Woods, which are flat to me, a Yooper logger told the company rep that, "We'll go till we tip da machine over." A couple of weeks later, yah, da forwarder had tipped over so it was time for the paper company to find somebody else to log it. Also, those guys have to get out and work on the equipment. I'd find a tarp thrown over the equipment and hear voices from inside, on a very very cold day. I was glad I could move around. Even with a tarp and a small heat source, it was a tough place to work. We have steep here, they have nasty weather there. Summer being the worst cuz I hate ticks and humidity. Oh, ran across a guy I worried about. It was a hot hot humid day and he was working inside the cab of his processor and the airconditioning had conked out. In full sun. I thought he would get heatstroke.


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## smokechase II (Mar 25, 2009)

*Oh yeah*

*"The spelling card? That's what you have left?"*

Ders also dat gramer card and pinchyouation,

============

If you're claiming to be a real logger who is going to believe in complete sentences anyway?

From what i here east cost lumberjacks never even dropped out of school.


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## sefh3 (Mar 25, 2009)

I understand logging is a hard job. Dang I'm whooped after a day of splitting wood. I want to know, How profitable is Heli-logging??? By the time you pay the pilot, Heli, and fuel is it still profitable????


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## BuddhaKat (Mar 25, 2009)

You forgot the $3 mil + for the chopper. I would think that Heli-logging is Heli-expensive.


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## sefh3 (Mar 25, 2009)

That's what I mean. A few hundred of thousands of $ :jawdrop: for the Helicopter plus the maintenance and service for this. I just don't see how it would justify itself.


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## Jkebxjunke (Mar 25, 2009)

slowp said:


> Hokay, take a deep breath. I have worked in the woods here and there, before coming back home to here, was where it was pretty much mechanized.
> BUT, every once in a while, the ground would get too steep for that equipment. What happened? The late 60s? year old grandfather did that ground. He did the handfalling, the line pulling and the skidding with a cat. The son and grandson stayed on the flat ground with the processor and forwarder.
> 
> Ran into a young guy who was running a processor for the first time, never worked in the woods before but had played video games. He was scarring up trees like crazy. I talked with him and explained how a hand faller creates openings and then falls to the openings. Someone who had logged by hand would probably have known to do this. His boss should have helped but then later I found scarred up trees again and the boss had decided to learn to run the machine.
> ...




probably the same ones that text while driving... and have their Ipods in their ears all the time...


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2009)

Jkebxjunke said:


> probably the same ones that text while driving... and have their Ipods in their ears all the time...



He gave me a ride out to the landing, there was lots of room in the Ponzii forwarder. It was unbelievable, he's playing a handheld video game, steering, has music playing and was negotiating around trees quite well. EXCEPT, I pointed out that there was a landing with skid trails laid out that was half the distance of the one he was going too. Oops...

But he sure could run that machine.


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## Gologit (Mar 26, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Vomit.....I have noticed there are a fair share of people like you on AS that think they know a lot about our industry, contribute nothing but confusion, then justify their ignorance by saying crap like "Don't they?" or "I always thought...."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well said. AOD usually posts good stuff but he was way off base this time. Thanks to you and Owl and Slowp for helping clear this stuff up.

If people have questions about left coast logging I think any of us are more than willing to answer them. But if we're attacked or critisized we'll be in your face in a heartbeat...unfortunately we've all had plenty of practise at it. Are we all kind of spring loaded to a defensive mind set? Yes we are. We have to be...and I don't see that changing anytime soon.


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## Gologit (Mar 26, 2009)

sefh3 said:


> That's what I mean. A few hundred of thousands of $ :jawdrop: for the Helicopter plus the maintenance and service for this. I just don't see how it would justify itself.



Volume. Volume, volume, volume. With the bigger helicopters like the Chinook or the S-64 it's not unusual to put a million bf a week on the landing. Figure maybe 5 thousand bf to a truckload of logs and do the math....it's lots of truckloads.

We were on a helicopter sale today, fifteen trucks, two loads apiece...that's volume. And volume is how you make money.



The high productivity offsets the high production costs. If everything goes right.


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## 2dogs (Mar 26, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Volume. Volume, volume, volume. With the bigger helicopters like the Chinook or the S-64 it's not unusual to put a million bf a week on the landing. Figure maybe 5 thousand bf to a truckload of logs and do the math....it's lots of truckloads.
> 
> We were on a helicopter sale today, fifteen trucks, two loads apiece...that's volume. And volume is how you make money.
> 
> ...



Either that or gov't dumps tax dollars into the project. Then we all get to pay for a few mbf to be choppered out of a park.

I think S&S Aqua Logging ought to get a helicopter and have his son choke logs.


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## spencerhenry (Mar 26, 2009)

i have seen the show only a couple of times, and not sure what happened in the beginning to set the stage. why are they topping all the trees, and why jig them. i realize that the ones near the creek may be a problem, but what is the reason not just to fall them in one piece.


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 27, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Either that or gov't dumps tax dollars into the project. Then we all get to pay for a few mbf to be choppered out of a park.
> 
> I think S&S Aqua Logging ought to get a helicopter and have his son choke logs.



Better would be to have him choke his old man

Harry K


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## bowtechmadman (Mar 27, 2009)

JCBears...better read my post a little more carefully...OCS soooooo that means I was originally an enlisted soldier prior to going to Officer School. OCS made Basic Training look like a walk in the park. 
Obviously you have served and thank you for that!


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## bowtechmadman (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm sure there are other reasons but I believe they are jiggin them to reduce the impact on the forest. I see an additional benefit in labor savings w/ not having to have someone putting chokers on, also safety of not having a person putting chokers on means no one in the downwash of helicopter (limbs falling) or if a log slips out of choker on the way up.
Of course I've never done any loggin just pure speculation on my part...I'm curious about other reasons as well.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2009)

It looks to me like they smash up less ground. The tops are shorter than dropping a whole tree, and less ground is "disturbed". They are working more in partial cut conditions. But that's an awful lot of trouble to go through. 

I choked when the narrator said they had to hurry and get the log out of the stream before it cut off the stream flow....no way would it dam up the creek.


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## bowtechmadman (Mar 27, 2009)

I'd agree w/ the stream being choked off...just some more liberal BS that you have to jump through hoops for.


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## smokechase II (Mar 27, 2009)

*Jiggin*

The jiggin method:
1) Allows individual trees to be removed by helicopter in denser stands. This is important when you're high grading the best cedar because that's all you can afford to in the current markets,
2) Less breakage of valuable stems,
3) Collateral damage to leave trees is greatly reduced,
4) Saves time on having to train fallers.


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## spencerhenry (Mar 27, 2009)

saves time having to train fallers? seems to me it would take alot more time to train climbers and jiggers, than fallers. the shots from the air show the jigged trees to be the only ones left standing prior to being flown. essentially this powerline cut is a long skinny clearcut, so damage to the leave trees isnt much of an issue. i can easily see the trees not being broken or otherwise damaged by flying vs falling. i looked to me that most of the trees being taken out were not cedars, looked like fir to me.
i am not trying to be disagreeable, i asked because i dont know. just pointing out my observations.


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## BuddhaKat (Mar 27, 2009)

slowp said:


> I choked when the narrator said they had to hurry and get the log out of the stream before it cut off the stream flow....no way would it dam up the creek.


I caught that too. Made me chuckle.

Maybe you can answer me this, what's the big deal if a branch falls in the water? Will it poison the water? It seems to me that trees have been falling into water since the beginning of time without it causing any mass extinctions, but if a logging operation puts a pine needle in the water it's a federal disaster.


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## Grande Dog (Mar 27, 2009)

BuddhaKat said:


> I caught that too. Made me chuckle.
> 
> Maybe you can answer me this, what's the big deal if a branch falls in the water? Will it poison the water? It seems to me that trees have been falling into water since the beginning of time without it causing any mass extinctions, but if a logging operation puts a pine needle in the water it's a federal disaster.



Howdy,
I think the current rules for blue lines were a kneejerk reaction to having virtually no (enforceable) rules previously. Back when, the creek beds were a good low spot to shove everything so you could get some work done. So instead of making a common sense set of rules, they went to the other extreme.
Regards
Gregg


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2009)

We used to make the logger clean out the creeks. In fact, that was a whole industry by itself, creek cleaners. We were afraid the culverts would get blocked, or there might be blockages for fish. 

Present: No unit boundary is allowed to come near a creek or wet spot.
We now pay to have logs dumped in the creeks and rivers to make pools for fish to rest in. 

However, I heard that a fisheries guy was saying there was now too much debris being put in the creeks. That during our floods too much is coming down the river. 

I'm not a fisheries or water expert. I just work at keeping loggers annoyed.


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 28, 2009)

It is a reaction to the way coastal logging was done here on the bc coast in the past... Bad logging practices kicked the crap out of a lot of salmon runs, especially coho that tend to spawn in small creeks... in the past it wasn't uncommon for guys to get gravel from the river beds....rivers were made impassable etc etc... so now its swung back the other way....


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## rtrsam (Mar 29, 2009)

Everything about the way these guys operate seems to be top notch. The way each climber and faller is evaluated ("audited"), heck, just the fact that they've developed a quantifiable means of evaluating a person's performance beyond just saying "That guy's a *&%$#*" puts them several cuts above the operators on "Ax Men."

I had never seen or heard of "jigging" trees. If I hadn't seen it on the show I'd have never believed it. But the way they do it,, measuring stem diameter top and bottom and using that to calculate weight based on length; it's all a top rate operation. And clearly every individual on the operation has to be on top of their game...or unemployed.

I'm an episode or two behind on the shows, got them on DVR to watch when I've got the time to appreciate the work they're doing


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## sefh3 (Mar 29, 2009)

That was my thought. How do you know how much weight those log actually are. You would have to be at the top of your game when doing the hooking below. Dang one misjudge and the Heli would be grounded from too much weight.


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## slowp (Mar 29, 2009)

It also appears that the sun always shines on Vancouver Island. I wonder if I could move there?


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## smokechase II (Mar 29, 2009)

*AxMen versus Heli-guys*

*"Everything about the way these guys operate seems to be top notch. The way each climber and faller is evaluated ("audited"), heck, just the fact that they've developed a quantifiable means of evaluating a person's performance beyond just saying "That guy's a *&%$#*" puts them several cuts above the operators on "Ax Men."*

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Oregon has absolutely no training - testing - journeyman -certification - continuing ed programs for Fallers/Loggers. (Other than truck/commercial licenses.)
My Brother-in-Law said it well. "No _____ Government idiot is going to teach me a thing about falling timber." {paraphrased but essentially this sentence captures his point.}

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It is odd that you would notice a difference.


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## smokechase II (Mar 29, 2009)

*Estimating*

*"That was my thought. How do you know how much weight those log actually are. You would have to be at the top of your game when doing the hooking below. Dang one misjudge and the Heli would be grounded from too much weight."*

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They use calculators with scribner or other dimensional calculations built in or understood.

_A (Species) of this diameter at breast height needs to be (X) long to be _____________________ weight._

A couple things I haven't seen are moisture meters (which are not precise anyway) and a measuring of the length of the stem.

It appears that they do not take into account seasonal moisture changes of live plants (water weighs a lot) and they are estimating log length up in the tree.

Their ropes could be marked (rit dye is what I've used without adverse effect) in ten foot segments from a tie off point. They have had a few instances of climbers going back up trees to take more and several of the load weights are off. So maybe something could be done in the way of improving the turns with a little more effort.


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## David Wayne (Mar 29, 2009)

I recorded the shows & just got around to watching
Question & sorry if it has been answered already. where does the guy on the ground get all his chokers? He certainly doesn't start the day with all he needs but they never show any being brought back. I"m not a logger so I don't know.


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## forestryworks (Mar 29, 2009)

David Wayne said:


> I recorded the shows & just got around to watching
> Question & sorry if it has been answered already. where does the guy on the ground get all his chokers? He certainly doesn't start the day with all he needs but they never show any being brought back. I"m not a logger so I don't know.



they're probably flown in and/or carried in.


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 30, 2009)

weight is basically calculated from the length of the stem and the diameter of the stem where you topped it...species dependent of course.... as you're climbing the tree you determine where to top it based of these parameters... I've got the weight cards somewhere.... so let's say the tree is 65cm diameter at about 13 meters up (douglas fir)...that's where you take the top...(pretty much a frickin tree)... you then record you measurements of the top diameter and the length of the stem (with a tape that you have hanging from your belt) in a little book so the weight can figured out by calculation...


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## slowp (Mar 30, 2009)

David Wayne said:


> I recorded the shows & just got around to watching
> Question & sorry if it has been answered already. where does the guy on the ground get all his chokers? He certainly doesn't start the day with all he needs but they never show any being brought back. I"m not a logger so I don't know.



That would be the outfit on Axemen? I think we've got two show discussions going. 

They wait till there's a bunch of chokers on the landing, and then they are bundled up and flown back out. The landing guys make a real neat bundle out of the rope ones. When Columbia was logging, and I don't know if they still do this, they had a little helicopter that ferried chokers around for the Chinook.


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## Dave Hadden (Mar 30, 2009)

At work today I encountered a guy wearing a Canadian Aircrane jacket with S-64=M3 on one sleeve and the outline of the famed Sikorsky on the other.

"Ever work for Husby?" I asked.

We talked a bit and turned out he was a faller with 30 years in around Vancouver Island, the Mainland and the Charlottes. We shared a few stories and I asked him if he'd "jigged" trees for heli-logging.
He laughed and told me how when he first started falling for heli-logging, something that must be done with much more precision than normal falling requires, that they had crews of guys who came around and jigged the selected and topped trees. The fallers climbed and topped only.
He claimed that it shortly became evident that the old school fallers could learn to jig easier and had more of a feel for the wood than those crews did, being often young and inexperienced, so it evolved quickly that the fallers did the jigging too and jigging crews disappeared.
Meeting him and talking story a bit reminded me of some of my past too.

Back in September of 1986 I went to work for Dave Husby at Eden Lake in the Charlottes. At that time he was heli-logging with an S-64-E Sikorsky owned by Erickson Aircrane out of Medford, Oregon as I recall.
I think it was the biggest chopper in the world at that time and boy could it ever fly the wood.
One day I left Eden Lake (old Naden Harbour Timber camp) to head over to the old westcoast camp to salvage a big whack of useable stuff from the warehouse there. It was about a six hour project and during that time the chopper flew and windrowed about a miles length of logs right alongside the road. Easiest loading out you ever saw but the most amazing thing to me was that there was not a single log there in the morning when I went by and yet a miles worth when I came back.
Unbelievable production under the right conditions.
The then Premier of BC, Bill Vander Zalm visited the camp in September that year and went for a turn in the chopper. Most guys puke their guts out riding backwards in that little rearward facing bubble, but he loved it and prattled on about it all through lunch that day.
Later the Canadian agent at that time, Silver Grizzly, went broke and that's when Husby, having changed from Husby Trucking to Husby Forest Products became the agent for Erickson Aircrane and the company Canadian Aircrane came to be.
I later watched the same S-64 fly a bunch of high value timber off a hillside across Upper Campbell Lake some years back and later on a returning from Alaska cruiseship watched it logging at Naka Creek north of Campbell River.
Definitely a high risk way to log but can pay off bigtime under the right circumstances.
You can also be fogged out for weeks at a time as Husby discovered on one claim they tried to fly back some time ago.
Ya win some ya lose some.

As SlowP noted, they flew the chokers out to the ground crew in a smaller helicopter, a Bell Jet Ranger lined with plywood back then in the Charlottes. 
Oh, and you haven't lived until you've lain next to a 45 gallon drum of hydraulic fluid while a guy named Radar hovers three feet above you in a two seater R-22 so you can hook up the sling that will carry the barrel to the broken down yarder 17 miles away by road. 
Couldn't believe how many clackety clack sounds were coming from the engine, which appeared very Volkswagen-like to me, even blinded by dust and grit as I was.
Made a mental note to not fly in that one if I could avoid it. 
Loved flying in Husby's new Jet Ranger he bought in early '87 though.
Loved it.
Beautiful bird she was too.

Later.


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## David Wayne (Apr 3, 2009)

slowp said:


> That would be the outfit on Axemen? I think we've got two show discussions going.
> 
> They wait till there's a bunch of chokers on the landing, and then they are bundled up and flown back out. The landing guys make a real neat bundle out of the rope ones. When Columbia was logging, and I don't know if they still do this, they had a little helicopter that ferried chokers around for the Chinook.



Thanks for the answer,and yep got the shows mixed up.I accually didnt relize there was a show called heli logging untill last night surfing channels. Makes axmen look like a$$ men. The size of some of those trees was impressive,sad though to cut something that old & large- I know we all need lumber,but still sad. So the wife ask me why climb & top the tree? Why not just cut it down then cut the top off? I am just a weekend firewood cutter, not a logger so you guys that know will have to answer that one, and probably more dumb questions as the season goes on.

Thanks David


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## slowp (Apr 3, 2009)

David Wayne said:


> Thanks for the answer,and yep got the shows mixed up.I accually didnt relize there was a show called heli logging untill last night surfing channels. Makes axmen look like a$$ men. The size of some of those trees was impressive,sad though to cut something that old & large- I know we all need lumber,but still sad. So the wife ask me why climb & top the tree? Why not just cut it down then cut the top off? I am just a weekend firewood cutter, not a logger so you guys that know will have to answer that one, and probably more dumb questions as the season goes on.
> 
> Thanks David



I was wondering that last night, after they brought in fallers to drop the limbed/topped trees. They ought to be able to tell if the tree is too big for the helicopter prior to climbing? Bring in the Heli-cruisers! But maybe it makes for a better tv show. 
Heliloggers is my favorite of the three. The scenery shots are good on it and it stresses safety. I never was brave enough to be around a big tree when the fallers were using jacks here, so I'm glad to see what I missed. 

One good thing, they don't seem to get much breakage. Maybe that has something to do with topping the trees that aren't jigged? Or less damage to the leave trees since the climbers were putting the tops in small openings. 
Oh well, it is a nice show to watch.


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## vwboomer (Apr 3, 2009)

my WAG is that it's easier/safer to do the limbing with the tree upright?


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## Marc (Apr 3, 2009)

Really enjoyed last night's show. Climbing and hand falling interests me the most, which almost all of this show... don't even watch Ax Men anymore.

One thing I'm most impressed about is the production and the camera work.

It doesn't have hokey animation like Ax Men, but the camera work, if you're paying attention, is as good or better.

Yesterday they regularly had eye level shots with guys climibing in addition to their helmet cams (how do they do that?) They even had a shot from a camera that was already in a tree that a climber was clawing into, before the climber got there.

They even had a shot from the undercut of one of the big trees that fell. The only way I could figure they got that was the faller cut a trough in the bottom part of the notch for the camera. Pretty freakin cool.


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## AKDoug (Apr 3, 2009)

Something tells me that there are some cameramen on that show that can climb too


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## TimberFaller660 (Apr 10, 2009)

its the only show i watch anymore. ax-men just aint ax-men anymore and american loggers is boring.


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## Jumper (Apr 11, 2009)

Saw this tonight-good show but I was a little pissed at the attitude of the more experienced guys towards the "greenhorn" Chris (?). Gawd climbers were not created overnight. Yes this guy is a froot loop at times, but the treatment sucks. I think he quits in a later episode.

One more thing alot of that PPE, helmets vests etc looks awfully new.


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