# leg straps vs seat



## kevintree (Jun 4, 2004)

did a search on leg straps and nothing

Which do you prefer and why

TIA

Kevin


----------



## jkrueger (Jun 4, 2004)

Leg straps, more connected to the event of climbing. The seat is like a chair to me and isn't about climbing, sitting around, maybe.

Jack


----------



## Burnham (Jun 4, 2004)

I ran a search 'cause I was surprised that you didn't get any hits...for "leg straps" I got three pages of thread titles. We've covered a lot of ground on the subject you're asking about, so I'd suggest you try the search again. Once you read a while come on in with some specific questions if you still have any  .


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 4, 2004)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10024&highlight=climbing+saddle

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11410&highlight=climbing+saddle

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9882&highlight=climbing+saddle

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1158&highlight=climbing+spurs


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 4, 2004)

i guess i must admit, i be one!


----------



## Gord (Jun 4, 2004)

i'll also offer my vote for the bosun...i get around a tree pretty quick and can sit in comfort for a long time. but then again i've never spent a significant amount of time in leg straps but i can't imagine they'd be more comfortable.


----------



## SteveBullman (Jun 4, 2004)

best thing about a seat is it reduces crotch ride up


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 4, 2004)

I wore a butt-strap saddle from '77 til last year or so. I never have a problem with the straps riding up. I can streech my legs WAY farther than in a BS saddle.

I can't see ever buying a BS saddle again.

Oh, and floating dees ROCK!


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 4, 2004)

Oh, you're talking about a rigid seat, like my old traverse.

A moot point. They both are uncomfortable, for me.


----------



## geofore (Jun 4, 2004)

*seat*

I like to sit back and enjoy the veiw and give my back a rest.


----------



## kevintree (Jun 4, 2004)

Thanks Butch

Kevin


----------



## NeTree (Jun 5, 2004)

Leg straps. More comfy, since I got no arse.


----------



## Stumper (Jun 5, 2004)

Ditto. Though, in fairness, I never have tried a true bosun's seat.


----------



## B.Secord (Jun 5, 2004)

I have one of each, I tend to use the saddle which is best suited for the job at hand. I use the butt-board for doing removals and the straps for pruning, but I believe that the floating "D" is the biggest differance between the two. (my Buckingham pinnicale could probably double as a thong for those more romantic moments)


----------



## SteveBullman (Jun 5, 2004)

I have the optional solid seat attachment on my butterfly, it makes all the difference to comfort and i rarely find it gets in the way.


----------



## OutOnaLimb (Jun 5, 2004)

I have tried them both and I feel that the situation dictates which is better over the other. If your gonna be suspended for a long period of time the bosun is the way to go, since I dont have much in the way of a butt. I how ever do not like my Weaver floading D wide back, it has a tendancy to crunch the twins from time to time. OUCH. That on is gettin retired and thrown in the rescue bag. Thinkin I want the Versitile with the bosun seat. Just gotta see if the Misus will let me get it. LOL

Kenn:Monkey:


----------



## jkrueger (Jun 5, 2004)

*DANGER old man ...*

... gez, found I didn't want to use the tree or really get into climbing with a seat or 'real' comfy set up.

It is just me I know, and I'd get up there and say to myself, " this feels great, work, what work, life is fun, ya, .."

Leg straps,
Jack


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 5, 2004)

This outta be a poll. I'm curious.


----------



## Tim Gardner (Jun 5, 2004)

I am either limb walking or blocking the stick down. I vote for the leg straps. The Master II has worked well for me so far.


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *This outta be a poll. I'm curious. *



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If your keeping score MB, my vote is Pinnicle with bosun seat, I've liked this saddle since the day one, and more or less for the same reasons Rocky likes his.

I guess my choice makes me an old schooler, but I have yet to read or hear any comments that would make me change my mind.

Since this split tail using carabiners hit the scene I finally got it customised for my style of climbing, after trying different combinations of hardware and set ups.

If I was to get another saddlle I would probaly chose a Versitile with bosun seat or the one Brian's always raving about, that pricey Austrian Duo, if we are both looking at the same saddle.

I honestly don't think I would like or be comfortable with a leg strap, as far as mobility in a tree using a leg strap versus a bosun, I just don't think there can really be that much difference between the two. 

In all fairness to the leg strap guys, I have never tried a leg stap saddle, if I was to try one I might change my change my mind but I doubt it.

Larry


----------



## rbtree (Jun 5, 2004)

I've used a lot of saddles over the years, from a trad butt strap, to bosun's chair, to leg strap. 

Ther is more to a saddle than its main features, as the actual design can mean one will work much better than another. As well, some saddles will work for one body type but not another.

My experiences: 


No trad butt strap saddle is any good, due to the hip pinch, great reducing mobility and creating mucho discomfort. That's why the bulky spreader snaps were developed, to alleviate some of the discomfort.

A bosun seat saddle is great, more comfortable than leg strap saddles, but bulkier. 

A legstrap saddle is never going to be as comfortable as a bosun seat, unless it has superior design, like the Ness (I dont own one, only because it lacks other features which I feel I need.) 

The Buckingham saddles are good in that they have some intermediate adjustments allowing some fine tuning to spread out the pressure to hips and legs. The Butterfly's design seems to be the best and loading both...but I still find it a bit uncomfy when on a line for extended periods.
But I'm reluctant to go with another Versatile (my old one is too small and wearing out) as, though they've been improved, they still either use the too small d'rings, or the floppy straight larger ones, that are very low on the user friendly scale. I see the new Glide has the same Drings as the B'Fly, which are great, and also built so as to allow them to be flipped back if desired. Maybe I'll contact B'Ham and request those d'rings. 

Best of both worlds would be saddles that allow a bosun's chair to be added....like the Austrian Duo. And did someone say you could get a bosun's seat for the Butterfly?

Question, has anybody here used or tried Fresco's X saddle, designed by Tony Sackett? One criticism I have is the attachment loops are oriented vertically, seems to make little or no sense.


----------



## rbtree (Jun 5, 2004)

Not really, Brian. I would definitely not call a B"Ham bosun saddle a leg strap saddle...unlike the duo, a leg strap where a bosun's can be added on.

The BHam straps are just like any butt strap saddle straps, they're just there to keep the but strap in place.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 5, 2004)

I sthil say a poll...

http://www.arboristsite.com/search....d=205235&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending


----------



## SteveBullman (Jun 6, 2004)

rbtree, yes butterfly do have a solid seat attachment, makes so much difference when hanging, kinda like the austria duo, in that you can just pull it out of the way when not in use and tuck it under when you want to sit.
I actually have a spare one if you're interested

http://www.terratree.co.uk/index.php?cat=4,2,p


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *
> The BHam straps are just like any butt strap saddle straps, they're just there to keep the but strap in place. *



They do keep the seat in place, but they are there to keep you from falling through the saddle or having the saddle slide up, in case of a fall.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 6, 2004)

I find it easier to climb with leg straps. They allow more range of motion. The trade off, is less comfort when just hanging in the saddle.
I don't do a lot of just hanging, I like to keep moving and stay on my feet.
The natural evolution, for me anyway, was to start with a cheapo butt strap, then move to a bosun seat, and finally get into a leg strap. As you gain more experience you spend less time hanging in your saddle and more time moving around. Having a good long work positioning lanyard allows you to get into more comfortable positions too, so you can work without hanging.
Perhaps as even more years roll by, I'll go back to a bosen seat again, when things slow down and I loose manuverability in the tree.


----------



## Stumper (Jun 6, 2004)

Guys, We are mixing our discussion of leg STRAPS and individual leg LOOPS. The original question was leg STRAPS but I have wondered from the beginning if the question was really about loops. For the record. _I HATE a buttstrap without leg straps-I don't have enough butt and the buttstrap winds up around my waist. I liked my Weaver 1040 with the leg straps better than a buttstrap alone and better than the old Karl Kuemerling harness with the leg loops that pinched thighs and genitals, but hip pinch was still a problem. My Ness with its individual, wide, contoured, padded leg loops is WONDERFULLY comfy.:angel:


----------



## rbtree (Jun 6, 2004)

Good post stumper. Rocky, that should help you understand what I meant. While a B'Ham bosun chair saddle may look like it has leg loops with a batten attached, the point is moot, as it does not have the feel of a leg loop saddle.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 7, 2004)

*Bosun*

Having used both, I strongly prefer the bosun seat. when I go rock climbing or caving I have a pretty comfy harness, but the leg straps, or loops; whatever you wanna call em, just kill me.

Contary to Mike Maas' statement of


> As you gain more experience you spend less time hanging in your saddle and more time moving around


 I spend _more_ time hanging on rope, simply because I'm more comfortable doing it than back at the beginning of the career where my feet were firmly planted on the tree at every moment, until the abseil out. Also, I'm gonna have to poo-poo Mike's theory on leg straps allowing more range of motion. Sir, I think it's a subjective judgement, as per comfort and preference, but as far as range of motion, I truly think the opposite. Nad-crunching limits my range of motion, and that sort of pressure is rarely an issue with a Bosun. In a leg strap, or loop, saddle I am limited by how much pain is offered when I get into funky positions. When I switched over to the bosun many years ago, I was able to express the full spectrum of tree work positions, and not get in a 'pinch'. Very liberating.

Ever been on rope, and ridden slowly down an angled limb, backwards, like riding a horse, so you can lop off firewood-length hunks as you go?? You scoot the bosun downward slightly to the lowest part of your butt, upper back legs, and that becomes the distinct line of demarcation between the limb you're on, and your nadulations. Slide with confidence. I couldn't imagine this in a leg strap scenario. But then again, I haven't tried all the leg-strap saddle available today, so my preference is based on limited knowledge of what else is out there. 

Only had six saddles in my career; four strap versions that kept me limited with certain moves, and the last two Bosun models which put no gear limitations on me that I have found.

Lastly, I have found Bosun models to get in and out of faster than leg loop models. This may mean nothing to many, but it's an important part of the overall judgement of what makes an ideal saddle


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 7, 2004)

By range of motion I mean like doing the splits. You can't do that type of leg spreading with the seat type saddle unless you pull the seat up and then you can't put your weight on it.
As far as spending time hanging, watch a work climb at the local competition, you don't see too much time just hanging there.
I'm not comfortable hanging and cutting, I like to have my feet planted. 
Not to say there aren't times when I just hang there, like doing cabe installations, but I do a lot less than moving or standing.


----------



## rbtree (Jun 7, 2004)

Mike, have you worn a bosun's chair saddle? I have never noticed any limitations as you describe, with mine, totally unlike a leg pinching butt strap saddle. I too have to agree, as I am somewhat underwhelmed with my B'fly...but only for the pinch that it gives...and pressure under the butt/upper thighs....which is not as bad as my old Sierra Blair, which put nearly 100% of the weight there. the B'fly does spread some to the waist. I quit that saddle and went to a Pinnacle....I was experiencing numbness due to pressure on nerves..not a good thing!!

I'm gonna wait till Tom Dunlap gives me more feedback on his Fresco X saddle, which should result in Tony improving it,, then I'll get one...unless there is something better out there.....perhaps Yates will develop their rumored saddle.


----------



## Burnham (Jun 7, 2004)

Ness, Ness, Ness!!! As comfortable as a bosun seat for long term sitting w/o bulk, and full freedom of movement w/o testicular trauma.


----------



## rbtree (Jun 7, 2004)

Burnham,

That's why I want to know more about the X, it features the same awesome leg strap design.

The Ness is too limiting for me, needs more features.


----------



## Burnham (Jun 7, 2004)

What would you like in the way of features that the Ness lacks, Roger?

Tom Dunlap has spoken of the Fresco X favorably to me as well. What in particular appeals to you about it?

I reckon no saddle is perfect, certainly not even useable for everyone...but I sure do like my Ness .


----------



## Stumper (Jun 7, 2004)

Rb, Are you aware that New Tribe will sew just about any combination of hooks snaps and gear loops onto Ness Work Saddle per your request? I've learned to like the little Ds but you can get big'uns if you wish.:angel:


----------



## jkrueger (Jun 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *Burnham,
> 
> That's why I want to know more about the X, it features the same awesome leg strap design.
> ...



I thought that too and I want a bridge to get the line out of my face at times. I really looked hard at the X and thought it had some thing. Wonder if anyone here has used it?

Same feelings about the ness. looks great and want sliding bridge as in the butter fly and glide. I have the glide ..., whished I'd have gotten the B'Fly.

Jack


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *Mike, have you worn a bosun's chair saddle? *



Yes, My last saddle had a bosun seat, and was replaced with a Butterfly. After about one day in the Butterfly, I knew the old saddle wasn't ever getting used by me again. I sold it to Sipkedsupra. 
I recall my first impressions of the Butterfly, light, big increase in range of motion, compact.
Climbing styles and body shape make each person suited to different saddles.


----------



## kf_tree (Jun 10, 2004)

thats funny ........i tried a butterfly after a bosum seat saddle and ended up cutting the leg straps off the butterfly and added a seat to it. the leg straps just hurt, i don't know how or why people use them.


----------



## jkrueger (Jun 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kf_tree _
> *thats funny ........i tried a butterfly after a bosum seat saddle and ended up cutting the leg straps off the butterfly and added a seat to it. the leg straps just hurt, i don't know how or why people use them. *



I don't like sitting on a park bench, like to keep moving. Then it is comfy.

Jack


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 10, 2004)

I just don't see how two leg straps around the legs could be comfy, compared to a bosun seat that distributes the weight better and more evenly, at least to my way of thinking, if and when the time comes to actually sit in the saddle.

I don't know how any one else is adjusting their bosuns, my seat is about where leg straps would be worn, maybe a tad higher, I adjust the seat so that it is barely touching the back of my legs when standing straight.

I've never felt restricted in any when it comes to mobility in moving around in a tree with the saddle adjusted this way. 

The idea of having to step into a saddle and pull it up, like a pair of pants, that really isn't for me, either

Larry


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 11, 2004)

*Pro / con of a bosun*



> The idea of having to step into a saddle and pull it up, like a pair of pants, that really isn't for me, either


That's the biggest beef I have about my saddle- stepping in, and pulling it up. I keep my shirt un-tucked to keep the sawdust outta my beltline, so it's always a minor struggle to keep the shirt from riding up my belly while pulling the saddle up.

But, my current saddle (B-ham Versatile) has a rolling D system that I would find hard to live without, and so there's no choice in the matter of pulling saddle up like pants, unless I pulled it down over my head.

I cabled 2 trees yesterday, and with both jobs I had to sit suspended on the bosun seat for extended periods. Bosun is great, but if you have to park your arse on there for more than 5 or 10 minutes, you'll feel it. These are my sole complaints on a system I otherwise love.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: Pro / con of a bosun*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *... unless I pulled it down over my head. *



Hahahaaa!!! I could just see that! It might become a new fad!


----------



## rumination (Jun 11, 2004)

My New Tribe Smokejumper is admittedly a pain in the ass to put on. On the other hand compared to the buttstrap saddle I had before my mobility has increased incredibly. I love it. And the thing is so comfortable you could sleep in it! I'm willing to put up with the one minute of frustration when putting on the saddle, because after that its all smooth sailing. maybe I should try pulling it down over my head...


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2004)

It's gonna be the next big thing, I tell ya whut!


----------



## arboromega (Jun 11, 2004)

bosun seat, weaver double d ring saddle. comfort like a 
caddy-lack. almost never gotten in the way of my climbing


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2004)

This should be a poll, I'd like to see the results.

Leg-straps V.S. Butt-straps.

Period.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2004)

OK, leg-straps vs ANYTHING ELSE.

:alien:


Nuttin under yur butt...


----------



## BigJohn (Jun 11, 2004)

so what is Butch climbing in bosun, butt strap, or leg strap


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2004)

Thank you, sir.


----------



## murphy4trees (Jun 11, 2004)

Butch posted a pic of his saddle a while back.... looked heavy enough to sink a canoe...


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 11, 2004)

I think he is a New Tribe fan, he is always posting a picture of that saddle.

Larry


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2004)

Heavy?

Pee shaw!!!


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 12, 2004)

Mine would sink a battleship.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 12, 2004)

*Hahahaaa!!!*

I wouldn't wanna fall in de bayou wit dat on!


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 12, 2004)

Gotta a question for you leg stap guys, now that we are into the hot and humid part of the year, don't those leg straps especially the ones that are padded get a little uncomfortable from sweating around the legs.

Larry


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jun 12, 2004)

Being as I'm pretty much soaked, no, it doesn't bother me. I wear mine tight.


----------



## kf_tree (Jun 14, 2004)

i posted this pic a while ago but i'll post it again.......here's my buckenfly saddle. i'll start taking orders in the fall


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 14, 2004)

How about a front picture, I like it so far.

Larry


----------



## kf_tree (Jun 14, 2004)

here ya go


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 14, 2004)

*Great colors, nice looking saddle*

I love those metal quick-release buckles. That back pad looks ultra comfy. Is there a rolling D design on one of the cousin models? I'm ready to slip into something new.


----------



## kf_tree (Jun 14, 2004)

looks pretty good for a home made saddle huh?

i hated the leg straps of the butterfly so i cut them off an ordered the bosum seat set up from the buckingham pinnacle pro saddle and mated the 2 together. it was just dumb luck that the colors matched. i reused the butterfly buckles on the buckingham leg straps. 

i suppose if you could get the floating d part from buckingham it to could be mated to the butterfly back pad.

it became a pretty pricey saddle, i'm into it for about 400.00 but it's just the way i like it. i know 2 other climbers that wan't me to make them one. 

it came out pretty sweet. the tie in is part of the bosum seat so even with my cutting and stitching i did nothing to disturb the integrity of the saddle. where the seat connects to the back pad i used weave through metal buckles.


----------



## murphy4trees (Jun 15, 2004)

I'd like to add a metal buckle to an old saddle that I bought cheap and never really used...any suggestions??

It's a OK saddle, but hard to get in and out of... the buckle would make a big difference....


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 15, 2004)

*Leg strap clips*

I replaced my clunky metal leg clips with the heftiest plastic Fastek buckles I could find (dive shop), only because I could not source the nifty aluminum ones like on the BuckinFly. The plastic ones are a kazillion times more convenient than the stock crap, but they're still plastic so I do not recommend anyone retrofitting with them.

Are the Aluminum buckles available anywhere?


----------



## Froggy (Jun 15, 2004)

Leg Straps here. I think you're more moblie in a saddle with Leg Straps, but that's just my opinion. I think all climbers are different. What ever makes your job as a climber better for you. As you can already see from the discussion in this thread there are many different saddles out there and many different climbers out there. If you really want to know what's for you go to the TCI Expo. and try some out maybe you'll be able to be a step closer to what you think you want, but the only real way to know is to climb in one and decide from there. Experiance in the saddle is the only way you're going to figure it out. :Eye:


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 16, 2004)

*Re: Leg strap clips*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *I replaced my clunky metal leg clips with the heftiest plastic Fastek buckles I could find *



What is the breaking strength of those buckles? 75 pounds?
Where you dropped on your head as a child?


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 16, 2004)

*breaking load unknown on an non-rated piece of plastic*

I imagine the breaking strength could be somewhat less than 75 pounds (33 Kg), which is why I do not recommend anyone retrofit the clunky stock metal friction buckles with these plastic ones.

I think I'm into the third year with this saddle. I've never had one of the plastic buckles break, however I have, on two occasions, had one pop open. Now, when I'm in some fandangled position where there's intense pressure on my upper thigh, or worse, my inner upper thigh, or worse yet, my inner upper inner thigh, I just go ahead and pop the buckle so I can avoid popping a gonoidal.

If the thigh clips had anything to do with holding me in the saddle, the plastic clips would never have been considered. BUT, all they do is keep the bosun seat in place, and since getting in and out of my saddle is a repetitive issue, multiple times a day, every working day, I just needed a less complicated system that did not compromise my safety. 

Since it is the waist belt that's keeping you from falling out of your saddle, I didn't feel modifying the thigh clips to be a big deal. It was the best thing I did to the saddle, but still, I would like to replace them with the metal quick-clips.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jun 16, 2004)

*dropped on my head?*

By the way, never got dropped on my head. Mom was always pretty careful about that. There was the time the galloping mare took a quick, hard right turn, I fell forward, dropped under the neck, then fell. As the horse tried to jump over me, one of the rear hooves clocked me in the melon. That was a legitimate concussion incident.

And then there was the awful frisbee accident my junior year in college, but that takes us off-topic, so maybe another time.


----------



## Mahk (Jun 16, 2004)

I have used Saddle X for several months and really like it. It has a wide back pad and wide, triangular, Ness type leg loops. There are lots of adjustment points that allow you to fit the saddle to your body and climbing style, and lots of attachment loops for gear. It's light and the 'X' ring moves like a sliding D ring. 

Mahk


----------



## jkrueger (Jun 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mahk _
> *I have used Saddle X for several months and really like it. It has a wide back pad and wide, triangular, Ness type leg loops. There are lots of adjustment points that allow you to fit the saddle to your body and climbing style, and lots of attachment loops for gear. It's light and the 'X' ring moves like a sliding D ring.
> 
> Mahk *



I'd heard that the back rest was cut to wide, what is your experience?

Jack


----------



## Mahk (Jun 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by jkrueger _
> *I'd heard that the back rest was cut to wide, what is your experience?
> 
> Jack *




Jack;

The back support is definitely wider than other saddles. A quick measuement shows that, at its largest point, the back support of the X is 10 inches wide; The Glide is 6.5 inches wide and the Ultra-Light (by Sierra Moreno) is 8.5 inches wide.

That never bothered me. I did notice that it was wider, but it has never hindered my movement or made me uncomfortable. If anything, the extra support is welcome on large removals.

Mahk


----------



## Menchhofer (Jun 30, 2004)

The Austrian Saddle shown at Fresco looks as it it would be a good saddle. Anyone have one of these?


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Jul 1, 2004)

TM,

You're walking out on a thin limb by using those Fastex buckles. I sure wish that you would spend some time with Google to find proper buckles. Heck, I'll bet someone here has a saddle hanging on a nail in the garage with perfectly good buckles. Strike up a deal.

I just downloaded an HSE research paper on the impact loads of falling bodies into harnesses. The intro paragraph got my interest. I think we're going to be stunned about how much load a saddle takes when a body falls. 

What saddle are you using? I can't hardly imagine any saddle where the leg straps don't hold you into the saddle.

Tom


----------



## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

*I admit my wrongdoing, and suggest it to no one*



> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *I just downloaded an HSE research paper on the impact loads of falling bodies into harnesses. *



I strive to not be a falling body. I never climb much above my tie-in point, and when I do, I have a steel-cored flipine that keeps me localized.

In this paper, who was doing the falling? Scaffold workers, roofers, bucket truck guys, hi-rise window washers? Stadium catwalk guys? Manlift workers? Rock climbers?

Tree work, as we practice it, is about work positioning. Positioning done right, requires a tie-in point higher than where you're working, (and being tied in twice when you cut) and to keep your friction hitch, ascenders or device tensioned up properly. A fall under these conditions will result in hanging there at pretty much the same height. That's why treeguys, doing things properly, do not fall. It's not part of our sport

Make a pitch on falls under conditions whereby work positoning is done improperly, and I have no comment. Under those circumstances, plastic Fastek buckles would have a man skating on thin ice and should definitely not be used. Actually, I agree they shouldn't be used at all, and I've stated that, but until I find a better product, mine will stay.

OK, there's the fall where you're limb-walking way out there, you fall, you pendulum into the trunk of the tree in fine Wile E. Coyote fashion, and you hit the vertical face with a hard force. Slamming into a tree probably won't pop leg buckles. You've got other worries at this point

Then there's the fall where you cut your rope, and you free fall to your demise. If only you had the _real_ manufacturer's leg clips....

What about the fall where you're tied in well above, but you cut the stem you're tied into, catapulting you to the ground. Again, plastic buckles are the least of your worries.

About the only way I see them popping open is by falling straight downward, which, practically speaking requires you to 1) Leave way too much slack in your climbing line while climbing your way up through the limbs and 2) not be using your flipline judiciously when in that temporary situation when there is potential for a fall to occur. Climbers doing these foolish and usafe things should review their climbing methods.

I will order new leg clips as soon as I find where they are available. I haven't asked the butterfly Komet people. Anyone got a link?

I am climbing on a Buckingham Versatile. I ditched the original clips, not because of the inability of the legstraps to hold me into the saddle. It was because the originals were a clumsy, PITA buckle that was annoyingly involved in getting in and out of, especially with gloves on. I just wanted an easier system without compromising safety. This is what I came up with, until a truly good buckle could be found. I know they now exist, I just don't know from where I can buy them. 

Instant quick-clips on the leg-straps is a great feature gentlemen, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting your time with it


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Jul 1, 2004)

TM,

You've spent some time thinking this through and you're responsible to yourself for what you do. I'm just expressing my concern for the practice.

You outlined most of the possible fall scenarios that arbos might face. Do you have a clue about the loads that the climber's body might encounter? Neither do I. That's why I read research that has been done about other rope working environments. I've learned a lot by doing that. Enough to feel that Fastex buckles shouldn't be used for any critical part of an arbo's saddle.

To each their own, I guess. It hurts to hear about practices like this.

Tom


----------

