# USA&CND, Soft lumber dispute V, anybody?



## Westboastfaller (Sep 21, 2016)

So it will be one year in October since the 2006 agreement has expired. I understand the following year after expiration is a 'year of grace' and we continue to trade under the last agreement?

President Barack Obama & Canadian PM Justin Trudeau have vowed to have an agreement in 100 days per as there last meeting.

IF you were at the negotiating table what would some of the things you would like to see. (Tell us how you really feel, you won't hurt my feelings)

Perhaps some of the aggravators & mitigators that come to mind.

I'll add a few bias Canadian links..lol
IDK but I haven't seen any from he US side as of yet.

A few things off the top of my head....
Canadian lumber is atractive to the US buyer when the US dollar is strong.

Its not good for our economy if our dollar is to strong against the US.

Canada agreed to undervalue prices and logged hard in the interior due to the Mountains Pine Beetle (MPB) epidemic which is now over. BC's dry belt interior produces about 88% of the wood and 12% come from the coast. BC is claiming dwindled supply in the interior?...there is going to be a lot of hard ball again.

They may say no more export of raw logs to the licensee's again such as Interfor. All 6 major Licensee's from BC invested in mills in the US. That wont be good for mills down there or fallers here. Good for mills here.

Best of luck down the road


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## chucker (Sep 21, 2016)

invest in America's products and buy American made products! same as Canadian products on your side ! no more trades to worry either side !! done deal or no deal!!


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## Westboastfaller (Sep 21, 2016)

chucker said:


> invest in America's products and buy American made products! same as Canadian products on your side ! no more trades to worry either side !! done deal or no deal!!


So you want to build a wall?


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## chucker (Sep 21, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> So you want to build a wall?


?? might be a good idea both countries can do their part(side) and make a great looking wooden fence with their respective products to further the economy of each!! lol job creation, poverty prevention boosting job's and a larger tax base!! good start and idea there westboastfaller, your idea may work? If I may make a suggestion on a wall, please make it a slated picket fence so as not to stop prying eye's on each side an cause eye damage as our medical system is not as good as yours... as short wall will help the border jumpers as well !! gotta protect the family jewels you know... lol


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## chucker (Sep 21, 2016)

!! just so that your great country know's if the wrong person is elected as our next great chief, we all may be moving north in a hurry!!!!!! move over!


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## northmanlogging (Sep 21, 2016)

so firstly, canukian timber pretty much kills our prices, like bad... cause you folks get to cut way more than we are "allowed" too. So on the one hand I wanna say F Canada eh, cause I'd rather see american mills being rebuilt instead of sold off at the auctions for dirt prices.

But on the other, competition is good.

Keeps both sides honest... so open trade or no trade sort of deal.

I also believe in strong tariffs, ya wanna send yer wood here, pay up. As it is now tariffs are virtually non existent in the US, but high in Canada, so out timber isn't profitable to send north, buy yers is profitable to send south, to me thats ****ed. 

There is also the export market, feels like Can-eh-dia has us cornholed again, purely because of our export restrictions, it makes Canadian timber easier to acquire vs continental US timber, Alaska I here doesn't have these issues.

So to sum up, like just about every other foreign trade deal the US is in, we get short shrift, and we will probably get short shrift again. 

I'd like to see tariffs et. al. used to even out the price difference between whoever and a domestic supply, then purchasing would be based more on quality and availability rather then price. Granted Canadian Timber isn't really a whole lot cheaper at the lumber yard vs domestic, since they are pretty much the same price, though this is because of an artificial low price for domestic timber, and an artificial high price for Kanukian timber. Other items though are way cheaper made in other countries, ones without labor laws, so a domestic version, has to be something special or absolute crap to compete.


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## Westboastfaller (Sep 21, 2016)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...waits-trudeau/article26967295/?service=mobile


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## northmanlogging (Sep 21, 2016)

as for walls...

china built a wall, rome built a short wall/hurdle, Britain built a wall (called the Pale surrounded Dublin... its as ****ed as you think). Nazis built lots of walls, and fences. Russia/DDR built a wall

Seems to me building walls is a good way to destroy a country.

Personally I think its really funny that the Peace arch is more or less off limits now.


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## Westboastfaller (Sep 22, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> so firstly, canukian timber pretty much kills our prices, like bad... cause you folks get to cut way more than we are "allowed" too. So on the one hand I wanna say F Canada eh, cause I'd rather see american mills being rebuilt instead of sold off at the auctions for dirt prices.
> 
> But on the other, competition is good.
> 
> ...


 I'm pretty non bias, and really want to know what people think. So I like the 'effort' & openeness.

I just posted a link, granted Its hard on the little man to complete on any scale in ones own country alone. Much like the small time farmer against the factories. Its demand, and US logging can't fill the demand (for whatever the reasons) for the housing booms. This creates jobs and stimulates the US economy. Its well know In many cases the mills are outdated and would need expensive modern revamping for smaller wood. Its not fisable to have all the Mills anymore.
A lot of Canadian liesencee's like Interfor mill BC wood in USA opposed to all up here. They took a lot of work from here and moved it down. Interfor are 2/3 operation out of US now.


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## madhatte (Sep 22, 2016)

I am more than a little ashamed that this deadline was off of my radar. I will blame it on the fact that I work on an ownership that is export-limited by law and so we only deal with local buyers. However, I've seen the export yards in local places like Longview and thought "man those sticks should be milled here" and can absolutely sympathize with anybody thinking the same. I've also marked a few that I know are too big to be milled locally, knowing that I'm meeting local ecological goals by removing the specific trees in question but also knowing that the logger is going to take a loss either by hauling the oversize log to a mill that can handle it (Roseburg?) or by longbutting it to a size that can be handled without expensive inconveniences. On paper, we are accumulating coarse woody debris. In reality? Well, logs on the ground are OK, 1000 hour fuels and all. Still, it's waste. I, uh, just finished a sale with a QMD of 35". So, whoever bids on it, is stuck with a bunch of oversize. It's about a million BF total, so half of that is big stuff. I'm not paying for the fuel but I expect that'll be the deciding factor in the bid price. I'm gonna guess that this big fat timber is gonna sell for less than other local poles will because of that expense. This is the legacy of the spotted owl decision.


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## bnmc98 (Sep 22, 2016)

I don't know all the politics involved, but I do know that last year, because of what you are talking about, our main stud mill we sell pine and smaller fir to cut our prices by 25%. Smaller mills for oversize, was about 10%.
So whatever happens I hope it will a little more favorable for US markets as well as CDN. Been treading water for a while now. Would hate to drown.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 22, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> I'm pretty non bias, and really want to know what people think. So I like the 'effort' & openeness.
> 
> I just posted a link, granted Its hard on the little man to complete on any scale in ones own country alone. Much like the small time farmer against the factories. Its demand, and US logging can't fill the demand (for whatever the reasons) for the housing booms. This creates jobs and stimulates the US economy. Its well know In many cases the mills are outdated and would need expensive modern revamping for smaller wood. Its not fisable to have all the Mills anymore.
> A lot of Canadian liesencee's like Interfor mill BC wood in USA opposed to all up here. They took a lot of work from here and moved it down. Interfor are 2/3 operation out of US now.



As for modern mills, I think you would be surprised, the big outfits, such as SP, Hampton, Weyco have pretty much all modernized, to link with Nate's post it pretty much means no oversize i.e. nothing over 32"



madhatte said:


> I am more than a little ashamed that this deadline was off of my radar. I will blame it on the fact that I work on an ownership that is export-limited by law and so we only deal with local buyers. However, I've seen the export yards in local places like Longview and thought "man those sticks should be milled here" and can absolutely sympathize with anybody thinking the same. I've also marked a few that I know are too big to be milled locally, knowing that I'm meeting local ecological goals by removing the specific trees in question but also knowing that the logger is going to take a loss either by hauling the oversize log to a mill that can handle it (Roseburg?) or by longbutting it to a size that can be handled without expensive inconveniences. On paper, we are accumulating coarse woody debris. In reality? Well, logs on the ground are OK, 1000 hour fuels and all. Still, it's waste. I, uh, just finished a sale with a QMD of 35". So, whoever bids on it, is stuck with a bunch of oversize. It's about a million BF total, so half of that is big stuff. I'm not paying for the fuel but I expect that'll be the deciding factor in the bid price. I'm gonna guess that this big fat timber is gonna sell for less than other local poles will because of that expense. This is the legacy of the spotted owl decision.



Further more...

Buse, Canyon Creek both specialize in oversize Doug Fir, and are located in Everett niether one is going anywhere anytime soon... well maybe canyon its still a 3hr tour from oly/centrailia but I think its probably closer then Roseburg

Buse so far has been paying better then the export guys, who say they pay more per mbf, but A: they don't scale as well, B: they deduct a lot more, C: they grade a lot lower, so in the end Buse and a few other domestic mills advertise a lower price, but end up paying more and grading the logs a little better, as well as getting more board feet per load, by like a 1000 or so...


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## slowp (Sep 24, 2016)

I'm kinda in the same boat as Nathan. When the crash hit, I did see loggers moving off the National Forest, where exporting logs is a no no, to private because the export market was fairly strong. It kept the loggers working, or some of them, but the mill was laying off a shift because of poor lumber prices. That's why I'm not against exporting logs. Some work is better than no work. 

Whilst camping up near the boundary in the Kettle Falls area, I tuned into a CBC news station. It had a story about a little town in BC not dying because one of the Vaagens was buying a mill that had closed or was about to do so. Vaagen Bros. once had a few mills in NE Warshington but I now am aware of only the one in Colville. 

I like Canadians and wish we could do away with the border. We PNWers have more in common with BC than with the far parts of our country. Build a wall? Nope, I'd put in more gates!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 24, 2016)

Lumber is already expensive. Yesterday I paid $3.75 per 8ft 2x4, $32 a sheet for 1/2" cdx plywood. New sides on my truck (40" tall, 12ft long) cost me over $200.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 24, 2016)

ca


slowp said:


> I'm kinda in the same boat as Nathan. When the crash hit, I did see loggers moving off the National Forest, where exporting logs is a no no, to private because the export market was fairly strong. It kept the loggers working, or some of them, but the mill was laying off a shift because of poor lumber prices. That's why I'm not against exporting logs. Some work is better than no work.
> 
> Whilst camping up near the boundary in the Kettle Falls area, I tuned into a CBC news station. It had a story about a little town in BC not dying because one of the Vaagens was buying a mill that had closed or was about to do so. Vaagen Bros. once had a few mills in NE Warshington but I now am aware of only the one in Colville.
> 
> I like Canadians and wish we could do away with the border. We PNWers have more in common with BC than with the far parts of our country. Build a wall? Nope, I'd put in more gates!




cascadia?

canada is nice... and canadians as a whole are alright too as long as they arn't driving down here...

you guys are aware of things like speed limits and left lane passing rules right?

and no trucks or trailers in the far left of a three lane freeway...


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## Westboastfaller (Sep 24, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Lumber is already expensive. Yesterday I paid $3.75 per 8ft 2x4, $32 a sheet for 1/2" cdx plywood. New sides on my truck (40" tall, 12ft long) cost me over $200.


 Aren't all Alaskan resident's eligible to an aloted amout of lumber per year as well as 2,000 per person of annual dividends.


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## Westboastfaller (Sep 24, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> ca
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"You dam Canadians are like Hemroids....when you come down and go back up right away its not so bad....but when you come down and stay down...your a pain in the AZZ!"

Yes Yes of course!
"Cascadia" I heard that one a few years ago that Wa, Ore, BC and the AK should form a Country Called Cascadia. I, for one am all for It.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 25, 2016)

and maybe if Alberta and Idaho play nice they can party too...

Was quite the movement down here, mostly hipsters, and urban wannabe blue collar wingnuts... but hey not a terrible idea...

Just leave the peoples republic of California to rot on the vine.


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## chucker (Sep 25, 2016)

" cascadia?" .... sounds like a whimsical, fantasy land where they "wood" systematically control the western worlds supply of building materials... holding the vast majority of larger timber could give them the same power as nukes in the eastern hemi!... fantasy land for sure, like trumps world with out trumper-tantrums.... lol


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## chucker (Sep 25, 2016)

"Just leave the peoples republic of California to rot on the vine. " ... northy, you forgot about the great state(republic) of taxe's(texas) for a southern border ally to back the center world from bulking the deal? lol


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## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 25, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Aren't all Alaskan resident's eligible to an aloted amout of lumber per year as well as 2,000 per person of annual dividends.



Allowed some amount of timber for lumber, but it's a real PITA. A friend did it, had to take the Forest Circus to court over it, even though the law is black and white. They argued it was an old law, didn't applied now-adays. He said tough ****, cant select what laws to follow!

Dividend is around 1k/year. That is part of the state constitution that we get a portion of $$ from the resources we lose from the oil companies.


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## Big_Wood (Oct 17, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> ca
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BC's biggest issue this year was Americans from the PNW coming up here for vacation cause of the dollar being so low. Let's not talk about shitty driving. After a case of beer and a 26'er of whiskey I could drive better then 99% of them. It's rediculous. My horn got a lot of time on it this past summer. I wish BC would make a fly in policy. Tourists can visit but they have to fly and stay in hotels. None of this RV's everywhere ********. Keep those retards off the roads.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 17, 2016)

Ok I agree with the RV jockeys being dumb, and dangerous... (camp trailer folks are hit and miss)

70 year old with bad eyes a bad ticker and not a clue that the "van" he's riding in is 8' wide and 40' long rocketing down the freeway in the far left lane at a whopping 10 under...

Also I'm curious if there is a subconscious reaction to being in a different country, like **** it, if I get pulled over I'm not from here so they have to let me go etc...

Having said that, Ireland has some crazy ****ing speed limits... try to speed all ya wan't, its just not conducive to surviving the trip.


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## Westboastfaller (Nov 29, 2016)

The year standstill is over as of Oct 12.

It's officially a dispute. so f* you and you 'Americans' too. j/k

You can't please all of the people all of the time, some will drop. I suppose things will drop for fallers here. You can't expect it to peak like this anyways. when your at the top, it can only drop.
It may be great for some of you finally?
Best of luck. what may you hope for?

*Softwood dispute with U.S. sees B.C. looking to sell lumber in China, India*


THE CANADIAN PRESS

NOVEMBER 29, 2016 02:40 PM





VICTORIA - The prospect of a reignited trade dispute with the United States over Canadian softwood lumber exports has British Columbia looking for new customers in China and India.

Mike de Jong, B.C.'s minister of finance, said Tuesday that America remains B.C.'s largest market for softwood lumber exports at a value of $3.3 billion last year, but the province is finding buyers in Asia.

Since 1982, lumber trade between Canada and the U.S. has resulted in court battles and produced three managed trade agreements.

The election of protectionist Donald Trump prompted the U.S. Lumber Coalition to recently petition the American government to impose duties against Canadian lumber.

De Jong said B.C. is preparing a defence along with other governments and the industry against potential U.S. challenges. But it's also mounting expansion efforts to buffer the Americans.

"We are amplifying our efforts to do something we did around (the last) softwood negotiations and that is diversify our markets," he said. "We have redoubled our efforts in India and are beginning to see results. We are in China now to further encourage efforts at reducing our dependence on a U.S. market that may become somewhat unpredictable."

B.C. forest industry and government representatives are currently in Asia on a lumber trade mission and de Jong recently returned from India on a similar mission.

Steve Thomson, minister of forests, lands and natural resource operations, said in an interview from Shanghai, that B.C. lumber products are finding buyers in China.

"China is our second most important market, worth about $1.2 billion and continues to have lots of opportunities," he said.

Council of Forest Industries president Susan Yurkovich said she is confident Canada and the United States can reach some kind of lumber trade deal.

"The growing U.S. economy is going to require our product," said Yurkovich, who is also on the China trade mission. "Building and construction is a huge part of that continued recovery of the U.S. economy."

De Jong said such a trade dispute has economic consequences for B.C. and Canada, but it also hurts millions of Americans whose jobs rely on trade.

"There are millions and millions of Americans who have jobs because of trade with Canada," he said. "An interruption to that trade will put those Americans out of work. They need our wood."

Quebec's government also spoke out Tuesday about the potential lumber trade dispute, saying Canada must create a loan guarantee program to ensure lumber producers continue to have access to the American market.

Economy Minister Dominique Anglade said she requested a meeting with federal International Trade Minister Chrystia Freeland on Dec. 8 to discuss the softwood dispute.

About 60,000 people work in Quebec's forests industry. In B.C., more than 65,000 people hold forestry jobs and about 40 per cent of province's rural communities are dependent on the industry.

The 2006 softwood lumber agreement between Canada and the U.S. expired a year ago and a one-year standstill period has not produced a new deal.




© Copyright 2016 Alaska Highway News- See more at: http://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/sof...in-china-india-1.3407316#sthash.poMV1ZUV.dpuf


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