# Ugly cottonwood



## rbtree (Sep 22, 2002)

Check out this black cottonwood that I looked at for Dave, the guy who felled that 146 foot fir with me. It is in a low class part of town, the customer offered to pay only $1000, only wanted it topped. Dave said it had to be brought down to 30 feet at least, and poisoned. He has to go back and tell him that our bottom price is $2000. And that will be low, here's why:

About 80 feet tall and wide, poor structure. 5-6 foot butt with two smaller leaders going out to back of tree, over old shed and two other yards. Two larger leaders have a 10 degree lean off vertical. One 45 foot long 10 inch breakaout hung up. Typical weak cottonwood for rigging. Likely 20-25 yards of chips, maybe more- we can chip overflow on site. Customer wanted no haul, but we need to get the stuff our of our way to work, so chipping will be easier. We'll need to use the Hobbs, or maybe my Saw powered capstan winch to raise up the long laterals on to a speed line. Then bring in our cheap boom truck guy for the worst stuff. And we have to cut down a 30 foot tall pear to get the chipper closer and the boom truck in. We could use the boom for more of the job, might not be a bad idea, as he only costs $85 per hour, 205 min for 2 hours. Even so, it would be hard to do the job in one day with four guys plus the boom. Only good thing is the lateral stuff is big but not huge.

Havent a clue if the guy will spring for the money, I didnt meet him. 2500-3000 would be better, but no way less than 1800-2000. I dont mind low prices sometimes, as I like the challenge, and photo opportunities.

What do you guys think, and what would you try to get for $?

As usual, the pics dont show all the difficulties...which are considerable, but not extreme.


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## rbtree (Sep 22, 2002)

Fist pic was from several houses away, showing the breakout, if you look closely.

This one is from the front yard.


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## rbtree (Sep 22, 2002)

Now, if the tree was in this yard,and we could get equipment to the back yard, we could get 4000 bucks easy. This place was just built two years ago, for a top exec at Microsoft. It is on a small lot in the pricey part of Seattle with a fabulous view. so I'll bet it is worth $6-10 million.


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 22, 2002)

Looks lika a LOT of tree, Rog. The good part is that it looks like you can bomb a good bit of it in the back yard. How small of a crotch can you tie in to on a cottonwood? From the pictures, it looks like you have a couple excellent tieoffs about 4"-5" diameter. Even without much roping, it looks like a LOT of volume.


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## Stumper (Sep 22, 2002)

Pictures never seem to do the big 'uns justice-the longer I walk around under one the worse they get! Based on your pics and description I would probably decline to bid ( I'm a one man op with 1 guy I can call on for help with lowering stuff occassionally.) I looked at a similar( but bigger!?!) cottonwood a couple of years ago after it was lightening struck. ( surveyed the damage and advised that it would probably survive okay) They called me back a month ago to remove a BIG hanger that had dropped and hung over the neighbor's yard. Customer told me that another outfit had advised 2 years ago that it was about to die, $8000 for removal----more than the elderly lady paid for the house umpteen years ago!

P.S. I consider Black Cottonwoods the best of the breed- which, unfourtunately, ain't sayin' much!


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## Reed (Sep 22, 2002)

Jee wizz JB, ya sure like to challenge yerself. Kinda a good thing too because someone's gotta do it if no one else will.

I don't have anything against cottonwoods - beautiful trees when they're along streambanks in Nebraska or South Dakota or Northern New Mexico but they remind me of floodplains. People should either not build under them or plant them anywhere near people places.

I can't suggest anything regarding the pricing or whether you take the job or not - the client's ability to pay and how much you're willing to dicker down seems to be the deciding factor but this much I can tell you - knowing you guys you'll probably do it. It's like my wife used to be years ago when someone would "dare" her to do something, she had to do it then.


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## Stumper (Sep 22, 2002)

I agree totally Oakwilt. I LIKE cottonwoods in naturally settings-but they are an awful choice for around a dwelling or other structure.


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## rborist1 (Sep 22, 2002)

:Eye:


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## rbtree (Sep 22, 2002)

Brian,

There is an old shed right under the tree, that gives us a pretty small drop zone. Those two leaders arent too hard, but even them require some tip tying and rigging stuff up. Only the easy stuff on those two can be dropped, all the rest on them and the rest of the tree must be rigged or craned. Some could drop into the neighbors, but that would add to cleanup time. Both of those two do offer convenient rigging points. (But not the best tie-in points for access to the back and the hanger, which will have to tied in two spots, with throw line.

And the structural strength is dubious, so no slam dunking for sure. But that should be no problem, as the wood can be free dropped, and the limbs, while long are not huge. So we may not bother to guy the four (or was it five) intact leaders together. 

Cottonwoods really can be bad, for sure, and I've never done one this wide. So, I'm thinking using the boom to do say half of the limb work instead of just the really hard stuff might make sense and be a lot faster. Besides, Mike only charges $85 per hr. The time saved would free up two to three men to do other stuff.


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## rbtree (Sep 22, 2002)

Craig, 

we can get the 86 foot, 17 ton boom truck in, by cutting down a pear tree. And that is all that is needed. 

Hopefully the neighbor will offer to chip in some $. He may share ownership anyhow, and the customer will probably freak when he hears the price.

Well, I gotta fly to do a Sunday job- an hour's drive away, pretty easy, a 100 foot tall spindly hemlock and a smal dead cedar. Then go check out 12 firs that can be felled, for the guy who is helping today.(And supplying his diesel truck and chipper as the fuel costs will be a lot less) Small ones, but maybe the wood is worth $1000, and that will be our pay.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 22, 2002)

Get an 85ton crane in and pick the top out in 3-4 peices.

Oh, with the travel time and traffic out there the crene would probably cost a grand in it'self.


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## DDM (Sep 22, 2002)

Tell himhe can have the deal of the week!!!!! for 500.00 he can have the Top Repositioned to the top of his Roof.


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## rbtree (Sep 23, 2002)

DDM....


...we considered that...


here's a pic from today's work, I'll start another thread

a quickie job- 100 foot 16 inch dbh hemlock, and dead cedar. $570, 2.5 hrs for the two of us, plus 45 min travel each way.


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## rbtree (Sep 23, 2002)

pic didnt take, try again:


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## bighugetrees (Sep 24, 2002)

I might say $800 to the client's delight, then get mad when it takes three times as long to complete the job. Learning to keep the bids higher. I've given away too much work.


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## rborist1 (Sep 24, 2002)

:Eye:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2002)

When guys say they gotta work and and keep the crews so they low bid stuff, I ask what they "NEED" for a days expenses. That is your daily minimum. 

It is suprising the number of people who don't know this. Payroll, fuel, equipment, lead-running time, collection and billing expenses, let's not forget all the different insurance needs we have. 

Then you gotta pay yourself, one cannot say that your profit is your pay. At least pay yourself a small wage/salery. you can bonus yourself from the proffits.

Then pay your wife for keeping the books, the kids for keeping the trucks clean, it is all a write-off, but tell your insurance they are office staff.

I guess where I'm going with this is that intensionaly lowballign because you need the work is self dilusional.

Becuase you want a job may be another story, price it out to a learning experiance. There is another thread.


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## rborist1 (Sep 24, 2002)

:Eye:


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## rbtree (Sep 26, 2002)

David is the man!! He landed the job for $2175. Not bad, methinx! Of course he will deserve a good part of that, but I still should clear 1000-1100 for myself and the equipment after labor and crane costs. Piddly for ~1.5 days work, but no problem as long as all goes well.

It will be a couple weeks before we get to it, but I'll be sure to post pix.

Hey, spikey,ya bum. Come on out and do 'er in 5 hrs, if ya can find a $99 roundtripper on the ole DC-3!! And bring that swiss snow (or wuz it cheese) with ya


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## rborist1 (Sep 30, 2002)

:Eye:


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## kf_tree (Sep 30, 2002)

when ya plan on doing that little scrub tree? if ya could put it off for a week or 2 i'm there. i'm moving down to GA this saturday and will need a week to get settled. i'd like to check out your hopped up 335.


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## rbtree (Sep 30, 2002)

you mean that 6 foot dbh scrubber, eh, Ken... 

Sorry, we is doin' 'er Sat and Monday. My loss, I reckon..

I have to finalize a bid on two badass douglas fir. Got to make sure the all terrain crane (at 185 per hr) can get in. Otherwise, the price would be way higher. One isn't too bad, but near the primaries, and on a bit of a slope. Brushing it out is no problem, wood dropping would be delicate without the crane. The other is behind the garage, right by front steps and walkway with NO drop zone. I think we can zip the branches over the garage, and lower the wood til we're within range of the crane. Probably 2500 board feet of low grade knotty stuff, but I dont want to have to buck wood--much less lower it. It should take two short days and bring in $3000 or a bit more-

If we get the job, pics will be great, as it is right on Lake Sammamish, and the house is very nice, $2mm or so.


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## Stumper (Sep 30, 2002)

$2mm----Is there an exchange rate to U.S. currency or did you mean to write that the house is 42mm -aka postage stamp size?


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 30, 2002)

I believe he meant $2,000,000.00 or $two million U.S.


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## rbtree (Oct 1, 2002)

Thank you, dear sir,

Say, were those your twin sisters you sent those pics of? I could send them plane tickets, but they might need coats, it is close to 40 degrees out tonite.


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## rbtree (Oct 5, 2002)

Update:

We started the tree today. One climber was hung over, had to come out of the tree, took a couple hours before he was worth much on the ground. So Dave did 95% of the canopy work. He guyed the two leaders we worked on to each other and then back to a third one. I set up the chain saw winch, which we used to lift five heavy low branches. It worked beautifully, and we also had a lowering line backup for most of them, set in the other stem. On a couple, we attached a butt line and tensioned it carefully with the chipper winch, which helped to swing them, and keep the butt away from Dave, then orient the branch correctly and closer to the chipper. Sweet!! We were able to dump both tops. But it went slowly, and produced a full truck load of chips. Monday the boom truck comes in for the back stuff. Should be about 10-14 picks, hopefully 3 hours.

That will leave us time to go do a 65+ foot bitter cherry, split for a couple years, and leaning over a house. Should be three picks. Then we crane four small fir sticks on one job and two on another. It will be a busy Monday!!!

So due to being short handed a bit, I got hardly any pics...
Got one good video and these two pics.


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## rbtree (Oct 5, 2002)

Tip lowering the piece:


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## rborist1 (Oct 5, 2002)

:Eye:


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## rborist1 (Oct 5, 2002)

:Eye:


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## rbtree (Oct 5, 2002)

You bet Craig.

More pics of the week's jobs coming up on a new thread...


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## rborist1 (Oct 5, 2002)

:Eye:


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

We craned the rest of the tree today, 5 hrs of crane time. Man, what a job!! 

Here's pics, more later:


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

All the picks were leaning back, some were 35-45 foot leaders, others 20-40 foot branches.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

After this pick, we got the stick out of the boom's way. Saturday, we had left both sticks for possible lifeline tie ins, but only used them a bit. We cut the second one out a while later, had no used it at all.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Honest, officer, I had two hands on that saw....

...earlier.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Two small ones , i think


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Outa here!


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

see the big hanger.... well, that is next..


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Sorry about the overexposed pics, gotta do a better job of explaining the camera use.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Slinging it and a short section together, that it was lying on.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Right sling was wrapped on upper branch, then choked to lower. Second around hanger and attached section. Third not yet around hanger closer in.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

A fair sized piece of wood..


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Third sling in place


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

I had messed up and not set a lifeline above me, so had to rappel off the hook, while walking down the hanger, which started tipping from my weight. I quickly grabbed the trunk, and after unclipping my lifeline which I had gotten hopelessly tanged in the web of slings and branches, Mike lifted it out.

(First, I had cut that stub which the hanger was resting on, so it was mostly supported by the boom.)


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Lifeline away, back to my other one.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Up and away


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

on its way


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

almost

Here you can see the space the boom truck had to get in. We had to cut down a pear and an dying cherry to get him in.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

on the ground


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Creating habitat snags....


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Notching a big one with side weight


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## rborist1 (Oct 8, 2002)

:Eye:


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 8, 2002)

Who's the headless dude in pic #52, on the left?


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

I'm out of harm's way, letting Mike pick it vertical. I usually had to nip a bit to break them free.

We lifted a couple not that much smaller than this one, Saturday with the chain saw winch.


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Well, that would be Ian, the drunk one from saturday. Monday he forgot his head...


..leave it to the b.day boy to bring that up.

hey what's with the red paint, a new game?


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Last pick, a big one. I was just starting to cut it, when I looked up at it's size and the small diameter where I had slung it. went back up and set another sling lower. Felt a lot better.

Too bad these are so overexposed..

Boy would this tree have been a pain; structure, ivy and all, if we followed OSHA's stupidity and did not ride the load line up for the tough sling sets.


I'll put them on pbase soon. http://www.pbase.com/rbtree/barnett_tree_care_at_work

yep, Craig, the "Cadillac pads" are the best. Most of us west coast climbers wear 'em.

I'm a terror on ebay. I just won another auction, a new 346. of course it will get modified. With two, maybe I could run a 42 inch bar on one... whaddya youse guys think?


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 8, 2002)

Ivy covered trees can be a real pain. Looks like you were able to work above it most of the day, though. 

I'm impressed, Rog. Tricky looking job, where you gotta figure out some things as you go based on past experience and ingenuity. Nice!


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## rbtree (Oct 8, 2002)

Yeah, Bri, it was mostly stuff like lifelines getting tangled in it....

Last yr, my good friend Scott Baker climbed and inspected a 4 foot dbh doug fir, that was ivy covered. Another company stripped the ivy, which took over 2 days for two climbers. The trunks came off in 2 sq foot sections, pretty much solid ivy. The guys were extra careful, as it was hard to see any chain saw nicks in the bark, not that it would have hurt anything on such an old tree with thick bark. The tree made a Seattle P/I story.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 9, 2002)

I identified the guy using a multi-point person identification system that I broke into while hacking the Pentagon.

Here's his profile:
*Alias:* "Grampa"
*Skills:* the brush dragging
*Identifing Characteristics: *fingerless, green
*Interests: *clock punching
*Status: *past his prime
*Drug History: *hemp using
*Constitution Schedule: *hourly
*Hearing: *poor

*Suggested Employment Position: *GROUNDMAN

This concludes the composite report of the CIA and FBI's person profiling database. For more information, Google.com generally has more to offer.

Here's the image again to clarify any confusion:







Yours truly and only in fun,

Nickrosis


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## Nickrosis (Oct 17, 2002)

Finally got a positive ID - Mike Maas

If anyone has information regarding Mr. Maas, forward it to the following address:

infor[email protected]crawfordtree.com

Thank you,

Nickrosis
(that address actually works....anything in front of @crawfordtree.com works)


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## Stumper (Oct 18, 2002)

Great pic!


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## rbtree (Oct 18, 2002)

Now nicky,,


Am I going to have to chastise you for not keeping on topic??? 

as you must know, it is MYYYYYYY topic!!



Pffssst


ummm what about MK- 7 and the Illuminati???


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## rbtree (Oct 18, 2002)

Shhh, 

Echelon has huge ears....


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## Nickrosis (Oct 18, 2002)

Echelon has ears, eyes, noses, fingers, whatever. If only they had that kind of pulse on terrorists instead of citizens. Makes me think 9/11 was an inside job.....

*I was completely on topic!* Na na na-a boo boo! Try to catch me as I roll off!






I never once wavered from the pictures you posted. In fact, I tried my best to invest in this conversation and enrich it with facts and perhaps humor. If I failed in this endeavor, I apologize.

Nickrosis


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