# Some city slicker that wants to play in the forest.



## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 23, 2012)

Hello, My name is Matt, and I was wondering if I could get some guidance from the members of this forum. I came here because I want to know more about the jobs and careers in the mountains. There is something about the Logging/Timber/Forestry industry that calls me, I love the mountains. Always have. I am still young at 21 years old, I got no big commitments right now, no GF's, no babies or a ton of debt. I got means of transportation and lots of determination. I only have a High-school diploma and a few college credits from the local CC and a EMT-B Cert. I feel I am at a crucial time to start doing something I really want to be doing. My main question is how someone like me can get started in this type of industry. Being from a south Orange County, CA surf town, I might seem like an unlikely guy to seek this type of work, however I am itching to get out of this way too crowded place. You can only handle so many Prius's/Commies/PunkRockers/Hipsters/Environmentalists...(so I figured I will piss them off and cut down all the trees) lol. Anyways, As of now, I only have limited knowledge of the Industry, most from reading on sites like this one. I want to learn skills like felling trees, and operating various types of equipment, anything along the logging process from a tree to a 2X4, or any other opportunities those skills can provide for work in the mountains. I also realize that it is a tough business, no job security and back-breaking work. But i'm willing to struggle. I'd rather spend my days working with my hands and getting the satisfaction of my own work. I would appreciate someone showing me the right direction. I have a couple of ideas already. My cousin works for the USFS as a Fire Captain, I have talked to him about wildland firefighting, which seems like a good way to get experience in the forest. They are not aloud to hire family members, so I have been trying to get on to a fire crew with USFS for over a year now. One Captain told me to get my EMT-B cert…So I did. I tried again for this season, and they said I needed Fire Science classes or previous experience with the tools involved for the job. I did the whole AVUE mess and all, and I update my profile all the time. Another route I am thinking about is more direct, and that is just basically finding a logging outfit somewhere and seeing if I can find a entry job and prove myself choking and rigging and what not. Are those types of operations that require the need for chokers and chasers only way up north? Do many people that log come from out of the area or are they all local? I even thought of getting a job at a local tree service so I can get experience with a saw and such tools, although that usually requires prior experience as well…(And I can't speak spanish).
Any advice to point me in the right direction I would appreciate. Are these goals realistic at all? cause my parents think I am nuts, haha. I am 100% serious about this and committed. I have read alot of your comments on other threads and they are very useful, I just thought that maybe you can give advice for someone in my situation specifically.

Thanks a lot
-Matt


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## RandyMac (Apr 23, 2012)

Go talk to California's Dept of Forestry, an entry level job there will get you a foothold.
The USFS has BD crews, lots of good experience and a shot at some fires.


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## 2dogs (Apr 23, 2012)

I thought everyone from San Clemente became lawyers and then went into politics.


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## 2dogs (Apr 23, 2012)

Cal Fire is a good place to start. You have to be persistent!!! Find out when the application process begins and submit to every unit you can drive to. Try to do ride-alongs with any fire district or department. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Visit every USFS fire station or ranger headquarters you can find. Show up dressed cleanly with a collared shirt, no black death metal t-shirt or beer logo shirt. Your car should have no political or other bumper stickers. Bring a lunch but be prepared to buy lunch. 

Your best bet in the short run may be a local tree service though if you are not from Mexico you have a strike against you. Defineately learn to speak Spanish at your local CC, but also ask everyone you work with who speaks Spanish to help you out. Apply at lumberyards (if there is such a thing in SoCal). Take an arborist course online. Never watch Ax Men! If you see a large tree job stop and find a safe place to watch the process.

Oh, and keep taking classes at your CC, esp English. Learn what a paragraph is.


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## forestryworks (Apr 23, 2012)

Might consider working on a 2 year forestry degree in the mean time or part-time while looking for work.

Good luck, competition is fierce.


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 23, 2012)

Hey thanks a lot guys for taking the time to reply, I appreciate the advice, keep it coming. I am going to call a bunch of Forest Station's today and see what is up. There is a local job listing for a Tree Service, I am going to apply. And ill have to look more into the Arborist related courses, I know some of the local CC's don't provide any. But i might be able to find something online.


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 23, 2012)

2dogs said:


> I thought everyone from San Clemente became lawyers and then went into politics.



Hahahaa, nowadays everybody here either wants to be a pro-surfer, a model, or a reality TV star...hell I know someone who is all three. The best surf spot on the west coast is right off of Nixon's old mansion..so it all ties together.


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## Billy_Bob (Apr 23, 2012)

Here is a list of logging companies in Oregon...
Associated Oregon Loggers: OPL | Directory

That is from the Associated Oregon Loggers web site...
Associated Oregon Loggers: Home

Getting a job with these guys is an "in person" handshake thing. Not something you would apply for over the internet or call about.

And every once and awhile someone on the crew messes up, then they need someone else. Maybe you can get lucky?

The biggest reason they get rid of someone is because they do not listen to the other guys and do stupid things which can seriously injure or kill the other loggers or you. (If someone says don't stand there, DON'T stand there!) 

Or they do not show up for work.

For chainsaw safety, study this video...
(Stihl Chain Saw Safety, Operation & Maintenance)
STIHL Incorporated USA -- Information -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws

Study these OSHA Logging rules...
Logging eTool

If you get a job logging, watch out for these guys, they will put your chainsaw chain on backwards while you are eating lunch and other such pranks. (It will no longer cut.)


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## Billy_Bob (Apr 23, 2012)

Another thing is they have volunteer fire departments in the smaller towns in Oregon.

That might be an in for you for a fire job as well as a logging job. Volunteer firemen would know somebody who is a logger and could recommend you.

Search google.com for the words...
oregon volunteer fire department

Stay away from towns near the big city of Portland. Look for towns near the mountain ranges (where the logging is).


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## wowzers (Apr 23, 2012)

I mentioned to some one in another thread, if you really want to log you need to move to a logging town. You might have to do other work in the mean time, but at least you can meet some folks and get your name out. I can't htink of anyone who would hire someone sight unseen that they didn't know. As others mentioned getting a Forest Tech degree isn't a bad stroke of business and or getting on a fire crew.


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 24, 2012)

I can see how getting on a fire crew based around logging areas is smart, because in the mean time while networking around with the companies, I am sill making money to survive off of. Other than that, or somehow finding a job in that area, I probably would be camping in my truck for a while. There seems to me like there is two paths to this: straight up drive up there and look for a job, Or: work my way up through different agency's while gaining experience and getting to know the people in the industry. Thanks alot for the tips guys, keep it coming.

-Matt


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## hammerlogging (Apr 24, 2012)

Snowman 10-4 said:


> I can see how getting on a fire crew based around logging areas is smart, because in the mean time while networking around with the companies, I am sill making money to survive off of. Other than that, or somehow finding a job in that area, I probably would be camping in my truck for a while. There seems to me like there is two paths to this: straight up drive up there and look for a job, Or: work my way up through different agency's while gaining experience and getting to know the people in the industry. Thanks alot for the tips guys, keep it coming.
> 
> -Matt



Except after option 2 you'll still have to go back to option one, except you'll also have some other options. Option that?


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## chaikwa (Apr 24, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Oh, and keep taking classes at your CC, esp English. *Learn what a paragraph is*.
> 
> 
> Billy_Bob said:
> ...



Apparently you haven't mastered the whole 'listening' thing yet! 

par·a·graph/ˈparəˌgraf/
Noun:	
A distinct section of a piece of writing, usually dealing with a single theme and indicated by a new line, indentation, or numbering.

Example:



Snowman 10-4 said:


> Hey thanks a lot guys for taking the time to reply, I appreciate the advice, keep it coming.
> 
> &para;I am going to call a bunch of Forest Station's today and see what is up.
> 
> ...



Seriously, the way you express yourself, both in person and in your written and verbal skills, will tell the reader, (or prospective employer), a LOT about yourself!


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## slowp (Apr 24, 2012)

Yes! I've heard the people in an "agency" discuss how they choose temporary employees. I've heard them talk about the terrible spelling and terrible writing. There are enough applicants that they tend to throw those people out. They like to see an application where the person took time to spell and write correctly.

Paragraphs are a good thing. 

How are you at math? If you take forestry classes, you'd best be math proficient.


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## chaikwa (Apr 24, 2012)

slowp said:


> Yes! I've heard the people in an "agency" discuss how they choose temporary employees. I've heard them talk about the terrible spelling and terrible writing. There are enough applicants that they tend to throw those people out. They like to see an application where the person took time to spell and write correctly.
> 
> Paragraphs are a good thing.
> 
> How are you at math? If you take forestry classes, you'd best be math proficient.



Good points SlowP, especially about the math.

I work for FEMA & the NHTSA, (I'm a contract employee, don't shoot me yet!), specifically, I review grant applications and proof-read proposed rule changes. Some of the 'speeling' I see on these formal applications is shameful. These are supposed to be educated people, in some cases in charge of multi-million dollar budgets, yet they can't take the time to use spell-check or find out why some of their words have a little squiggly line underneath them. I saw one individual express 'rescue of innocent people' as 'rez-Q ov inn., ppl.'. :bang: 

Another thing I see a lot of is run on sentences that lose their whole meaning because they're so long and drawn out and the writer is trying to say so much without using punctuation or paragraphing and they must be lazy too I really don't know but it makes for real difficult reading when you're reading fifty grant applications a day and your eyes get tired and by the time you get to the end of the run on sentence you've totally forgotten what point the writer was trying to convey to the reader know what I mean?

I'm far from a 'socially acceptable' individual, but I know when to put on the formal hat and do things correctly!


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## lfnh (Apr 24, 2012)

chaikwa said:


> Good points SlowP, especially about the math.
> 
> I work for FEMA & the NHTSA, (I'm a contract employee, don't shoot me yet!), specifically, I review grant applications and proof-read proposed rule changes. Some of the 'speeling' I see on these formal applications is shameful. These are supposed to be educated people, in some case in charge of multi-million dollar budgets, yet they can't take the time to use spell-check or find out why some of their words have a little squiggly line underneath them. I saw one individual express 'rescue of innocent people' as 'rez-Q ov inn., ppl.'. :bang:
> 
> *Another thing I see a lot of is run on sentences that lose their whole meaning because they're so long and drawn out and the writer is trying to say so much without using punctuation or paragraphing and they must be lazy too I really don't know but it makes for real difficult reading when you're reading fifty grant applications a day and your eyes get tired and by the time you get to the end of the run on sentence you've totally forgotten what point the writer was trying to convey to the reader know what I mean?*I'm far from a 'socially acceptable' individual, but I know when to put on the formal hat and do things correctly!



lmao. Lot of truth to that.

Rules and regulations are often butchered up intentionally with "shall, may, might, must, will, wood, shood" and sprinkled with a bit of creative punctuation until they are downright meaningless (or meaningful, haha).


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## Erock (Apr 25, 2012)

I work fire for the U.S.F.S. and I'd recommend (if you still want to get on a fire crew) find an organization that is offering S-130/190 class. 

That will be a good start. Its intro to wildland fire and fire behavior. Having that on your resume will be a bonus. 

Some crews will hire folks who don't have the class or any forestry experience and my advice if you're going to go that route is be persistent in calling the locations you apply for and getting to know folks. If you get hired without taking 130/190 they will pay for the class. You're pretty much done for getting a job this season but if still interested for next year start looking for places around November. Get your app in on AVUE by January and call the locations that you applied for and let them know you applied for the position. 

Also, when looking for fire jobs. Find the crew foreman's number and call them and ask for the duty station that you need to select on AVUE so they will receive your app. (maybe you got that figured out but if not, now you know)


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 25, 2012)

Again, thank you all that replied and helped me out. 

This site seems like it has a lot of intelligent and honest people, and i'm definitely looking forward to sticking around and learning some great information from all the threads. I will take everyones bit of advice and use it towards my goals.

-Matt


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 25, 2012)

Erock said:


> I work fire for the U.S.F.S. and I'd recommend (if you still want to get on a fire crew) find an organization that is offering S-130/190 class.
> 
> That will be a good start. Its intro to wildland fire and fire behavior. Having that on your resume will be a bonus.
> 
> ...



Will do, I am enrolling in a Fire-Science class for this summer in a CC down in Fallbrook. I will also look into the S-130/190 and see if they are offered anywhere around here.


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 25, 2012)

Haha, Sorry for that long run-on essay in the beginning of the thread, just trying to cram all my thoughts into the box. As you all suggested, I definitely will brush up on the English and Math skills, it is important to look professional and educated. I may need some work on that, however I would say my best quality is keeping a good attitude always, and taking the work I do seriously and with Integrity. I am willing to put the time in to learn new skills and strive to do the best at what I do.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 25, 2012)

I guess you guys prove the rule , those that can , do those that can't are a bunch of government suck ups ..

Look Matt . Contrary to what you were taught in school and what all these college edjucates are yammerin about . . 
You can do anything you want to, if you want to bad enough and are willing to pay the price . . 
If you want to go loggin , well its kinda hard to if the only logs where u r are verticle and hole up power lines . 
You need to get to loggin country . You want to be in the mountains , well ain't much for mountains down south . 
You want to get a job in the brush , find some outfit . Plauge them until they put u on , then day in , day out , out work every guy on the crew . And be a good guy .


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## tramp bushler (Apr 25, 2012)

But you need to decide if you . Need to be on the governmint dole . Or if your going to be a man and work for a living . Ie private sector vs . The welfare state ( typical gvmt employee .) 


You don't even need to be able to read to be a Great logger . You sure don't need any college courses. 
Instead of wasting your money on that crap . Spend it on the stuff you will need to make a livin in the brush .

Basic reading skills are enjoyable tho .


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## forestryworks (Apr 25, 2012)

With the way the economy is going, getting an education is not a bad idea, contrary to what some will say on here. Every time the economy got bad for me, I had an opportunity to go back to school. I am finishing up my third degree (Bachelor of Sci. in Natural Resource Mgmt.) at the end of this year.

A degree doesn't make you over educated, it just gives you more options and a more secure fall back plan than guys without an education. An over educated person is one with lots of book experience and no real world experience. Combining both book and real world experience makes you a more knowledgeable person, as not everything can be learned on the job and and not everything can be learned from a book.

More and more, the people that are hiring these days want you to have at a minimum, a bachelors degree. Don't fret though, a 2 year degree is miles better than just a high school diploma or a GED. All a degree means to a lot of employers is that it shows you can start something, stick with it and finish it.

And don't turn your cheek to government employment, in the next decade or so it could be the only secure job sector there is. And the benefits aren't bad. You might get your wage frozen, but once you have a federal job you don't have to worry much about how secure that job is. A USFS fire crew is a great way to start your fed employment career.

Logging? Not secure. It's a volatile industry, squeezed tight by the big hands of the market economy. But then again, there's no other job like it.

Try out whatever grabs your interest, give each job a shot and finish the job as agreed upon with your employer.


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## slowp (Apr 25, 2012)

Well Tramp, maybe I should change my name to Government Suckup, or better yet, On The Dole. Do you think all I did was drink coffee and sleep at a desk? Or just stand on a landing? Geesh. Thanks a lot.

The Government doesn't even have job security anymore. Why did I move so much? Because "downsizing" was in vogue. Reorganization and Downsizing do not help job security. If you are a veteran, you can be fairly secure. A coworker did sleep at his desk and wandered about with a coffee cup in hand, but he was a veteran and therefore it was all right....( I do not mean to slam the veteran preferance but a few do take advantage--note the words A FEW). 

Now they are trying to figure out how to downsize more and offering financial incentives for people to leave.

And a hint. Try to get on at a godforsaken place like Happy Camp or Orleans or Hayfork because few people want to work at such isolated spots. The competition will be less.


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## MacLaren (Apr 25, 2012)

An excellent post! And congrats on your 3rd degree!


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## chaikwa (Apr 25, 2012)

Snowman 10-4 said:


> Haha, Sorry for that long run-on essay in the beginning of the thread...


No apologies needed. I didn't aim that at you, just commenting on one of my pet peeves that I see all too often. 



tramp bushler said:


> I guess you guys prove the rule , those that can , do those that can't are a bunch of government suck ups ..


You may be on to something here. I was a career firefighter for 26 years. Broke my back, a leg, and have permanent lung damage from various aspects of 26 years on the job. I left the job in 2001 because I was sick of the politics, wasn't eligible for retirement and wouldn't take disability, so now I have NO retirement and I make roughly $17,500 or so a year from whatever I can make off my land, (that I paid cash for after saving for 20 years), and the 'government sucking-up' I do. The 'suck-up' work I do for the government is all acquired by a bid process in which the low bid gets the work. There's no benefits and travel and expenses aren't covered outside of the bid amount. They house me in a dorm when I have to go to one of their facilities tho, so I guess I DO live in the lap of luxury on the government dole! :rolleyes2:



tramp bushler said:


> Contrary to what you were taught in school and what all these college edjucates are yammerin about . .


I've never attended college. I BARELY have a high school diploma. Actually, I have a GED because I went to a trade school instead of high school, so technically I have a trade certificate. I DID go to an extension school to get my paramedic certification, so if you want to consider that college, more power to ya!




tramp bushler said:


> You can do anything you want to, if you want to bad enough and are willing to pay the price . .


This is true. In logging, the 'price' will most likely be a broken body by the time you get to your 60's or older. Nothing wrong with that if that's your career choice, just be aware of it and consider having something in terms of other skills or knowledge so you can still make a living after your body gives out and you aren't still hobbling around a cut block in your elder years. The only thing worse than being a 'government suck up' is being an old logger who can't really do the job anymore, but the boss feels bad for you and keeps you employed despite your ability to be able to contribute anything worthwhile. 



tramp bushler said:


> But you need to decide if you . Need to be on the governmint dole . Or if your going to be a man and work for a living . Ie private sector vs . The welfare state ( typical gvmt employee .)





tramp bushler said:


> You don't even need to be able to read to be a Great logger .


Be very careful when someone gives you 'advice' like this. It usually comes from someone who has some regrets about what he or she has done with their life and doesn't want to see anyone else get something they couldn't acquire. 

There's a big difference in being employed by a government entity and 'being on the dole', and that is a choice that you CAN make. People who have government jobs that do nothing, are 'on the dole'. Welfare recipients that are too lazy to actually work for a living are 'on the dole'. But in both examples, there are people that are good and bad. You are the one who will determine what kind of person you will become.


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## madhatte (Apr 25, 2012)

slowp said:


> Do you think all I did was drink coffee and sleep at a desk? Or just stand on a landing?



I can manage both.

Seriously, though -- I want to point out again that I have never taken a class in Forestry. I am not "formally" educated in what I do for a living. I have a degree in biology/ecology and a degree in photography. My military background is in engineering. Forestry is something I learned in the field. My "other" educations make me a more versatile thinker, and better at what I do than if I only knew one discipline. They also make it so that if the ass falls out of this job market like it did in the late 90's (which is why I joined the military in the first place), I can do something else while I wait to get back to the woods. This is what I do. I could make a lot more money working in a power plant, but I hate that work. I'm here because I want to be. The improved quality of life that comes from job satisfaction is well worth the pay cut. 

OP: you wanna work in the woods? Do it. Probably won't be easy, but it can be done.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 25, 2012)

Well its good to see I helped coffee get some people wound up today .

If during the decades that I logged and cut timber before I got my first computer + digital camera. Most all I did was wind on er. Didn't do much picture taking . But all my time was spent high ball loggin and mostly bushlin .. I know a bunch of guys who tried to get on but couldn't because they wanted to ( keep their options open ) . 
That may be great if all they wanted was $$ . But they didn't make loggers . Of the hundreds of loggers , fallers and mill hands I worked with , None of them got hired because they were college edjucated . 
. If Matt wants to log , he just needs to go to work . Not . School . I don't see any tower loggers on here telling him to go to college . .


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## tramp bushler (Apr 25, 2012)

Isn't there a Forestry management forum on AS .
And fire fighting , fightin fires isn't loggin . 
When it comes to loggin + fallin timber I have little to no respect for forest fire fighters . 

If someone is a fire fighter and likes it Great . But they arn't loggers . And if they actually do falling on a fire line, thats just gettin them on the ground . Thats only half the job of a single jack faller . . Any dummy can tree length . Well maybe not anyone .


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## Gologit (Apr 25, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> . If Matt wants to log , he just needs to go to work . Not . School . I don't see any tower loggers on here telling him to go to college . .



Matt...I'm not a tower logger, I'm a Cat logger. Go to college.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 25, 2012)

And who in the world that loves bein in the timber would want a job where the forest is burning up . . . 

Our timber industry went belly up so I went to frameing houses . Super Cargoing ship loading .drilling . And Union Laboring . I execelled at all those execpt for getting along with the wimps and suck ups . One thing I learned growing up loggin in Maine was to work HARD.
When I was in the service that did me well . When I got out and went to work in the brush it was a job requieement . They don't teach that in school .


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## chaikwa (Apr 25, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Our timber industry went belly up so I went to frameing houses . Super Cargoing ship loading .drilling . And Union Laboring . I execelled at all those execpt for getting along with the wimps and suck ups . One thing I learned growing up loggin in Maine was to work HARD.
> When I was in the service that did me well . When I got out and went to work in the brush it was a job requieement . They don't teach that in school .



So basically what you're saying is you can't get along with anyone because they're all wimps and suck ups, (and if I'm remembering correctly from your previous posts, all are on the government dole), and if you aren't a logger, you've never worked hard and never will.


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## Gologit (Apr 25, 2012)

chaikwa said:


> So basically what you're saying is if you aren't a logger, you've never worked hard and never will.



It's what he knows how to do and from all indications he does it damn well. Leave the man alone.


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## chaikwa (Apr 25, 2012)

Gologit said:


> It's what he knows how to do and from all indications he does it damn well. Leave the man alone.



I think there are a LOT of guys here that do their jobs well, but from his perspective we're all wimps and suck ups on government welfare programs. From _my_ perspective, that opinion doesn't exactly instill admiration towards him. Or respect for that matter.


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## Gologit (Apr 25, 2012)

chaikwa said:


> I think there are a LOT of guys here that do their jobs well, but from his perspective we're all wimps and suck ups on government welfare programs. From _my_ perspective, that opinion doesn't exactly instill admiration towards him. Or respect for that matter.



I doubt that he's concerned with your opinion.


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## chaikwa (Apr 25, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I doubt that he's concerned with your opinion.



No, I'm sure he's not. Neither is our President.


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## forestryworks (Apr 25, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I have little to no respect for forest fire fighters .


 
That's real smart. Don't ever build a house in a fire prone area. 

Wildland firefighters are protecting the basis of the industry you speak so proudly of. 

It is definitely the toughest working environment of any woods work.


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## Wazzu (Apr 25, 2012)

My suggestions are, in this order:
-Get out of Southern California. It is a whole different world outside of SoCal and you may not even like it in the boonies. If you have family in OR, WA, ID, MT or WY you may be able to visit them and see if the rural life suits you. 
-You might consider looking for work in the oil and gas industry in ND and E. MT (I know for a fact that an illegal alien can make 18.00 an hour up there), you will probably meet a bunch of former timber industry guys who are now driving truck, operating machinery, etc. Those guys could share a lot of good advice on the timber industry and you could gain some experience at the same time.
-Whatever job you try for, stay the hell away from drugs and limit your alcohol because most bosses don't want people showing up drunk, high or hungover. Most important be reliable, showing up on time to work means a minimum of 5-10 minutes early. On time is late, if you get my meaning. After a few years and after you establish yourself, then you might consider coming in "on time".
-Keep the good attitude you are now demonstrating and you will be fine.


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## wowzers (Apr 25, 2012)

Last time I checked this was the forestry *and* logging forum. I have my job in the woods solely because I went to school and was working for a forestry outfit. Let me meet a lot of contractors and show that I wanted to work.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 26, 2012)

Ya . I didn't set out to create a bunch of hate and discontent . And tho I don't desire to cast aspersions on any one , it occasionally happens . Sorry about that . . 

However my point is valid and true . 
Loggin is loggin . Its not forestry or firefighting or anythingelse . . If a guy wants to go loggin.. 
He needs to go loggin . Not to college .
Sure , haveing an EMT cert. Is great . But not at all necessary . 
The fact is that someone is gonna give you a chance . But your gonna Have to TAKE the job.


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## RandyMac (Apr 26, 2012)

Forestry and logging are like apples, one is green, the other is red. Having a background in forestry can make you a better, more thoughtful faller as you see plenty of logged off sites. You see the good, bad and the ugly and get to set it all on fire. The fire end of forestry has some very interesting aspects, some of the most challenging, dangerous trees I have felled were on fires. Sure fires can be a heap of drudgery and logging can be too.
I won my sawchain filing and bucking spurs on the Bull Creek log jams. The '64 flood piled big logs and whole trees into huge windrows, I sawed them at 16", not many cookies here, they looked like poker chips. There were times when every blessed cut in the bind.


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## wowzers (Apr 26, 2012)

My hope is that being a logger will make me a better forester one day.


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## madhatte (Apr 26, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Forestry and logging are like apples, one is green, the other is red.



Think I might hafta borrow that one, if you don't mind.


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## RandyMac (Apr 26, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Think I might hafta borrow that one, if you don't mind.



It is all your's Nate.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 26, 2012)

But , did you learn the trade in some college class , Or were you a timber faller who got on cuttin on a fire because the woods were shut down . ?????????????


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## RandyMac (Apr 26, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> But , did you learn the trade in some college class , Or were you a timber faller who got on cuttin on a fire because the woods were shut down . ?????????????



I didn't learn ####-all in college, didn't go.

I worked both sides, depending on season, between woods jobs or if I just felt like it.
I went into forestry the day after I graduated from high school, was bucking burnt logs on a Bald Hills fire with a McCulloch geardrive later that day.


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## redprospector (Apr 26, 2012)

Hahaha. Come on guy's. Get the chip's off your shoulders. Gee, I check out for a couple of days, and look what happens. Now set all of your yaw fighting aside and hear the truth about foresters & loggers.

There are a lot of foresters that are just flat out jerks, not all, but a good many. Add that to the lower level FS and state employee's that have something to prove, and.....Well, they all have green uniforms. So they all get lumped together.

Most all loggers are rude, crude, socially unacceptable neanderthol's that don't really care if you admire, or respect them. If they're worth their salt, the only thing they're trying to prove is that they can put more wood on the landing than you.

I think that comparing the two is more like apples & oranges. 
Unless a logger has worked as a forester for a number of years there are aspects of that job that they just don't comprehend.
On the other side it's the same. If a forester hasn't made a living for a number of years as a logger then there are some things they won't get. Until you've pulled some cable, some things just don't make sence.


Andy


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## RandyMac (Apr 26, 2012)

There are stick up the butt "Foresters" and there are forestry workers, like comparing apples to bananas.


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## redprospector (Apr 26, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> There are stick up the butt "Foresters" and there are forestry workers, like comparing apples to bananas.



Yep, or water mellons.

Andy


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## tramp bushler (Apr 26, 2012)

Randy I'de like to put your opening line in my sig.
"I didn't learn ####all in college , didn't go " 

.:msp_biggrin:
More like rotten rutabagas.


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## RandyMac (Apr 26, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Randy I'de like to put your opening line in my sig.
> "I didn't learn ####all in college , didn't go "
> 
> .:msp_biggrin:



have at 'er.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

Well , I guess Matt got a good look at the battle between the gumint boys and the timber beasts . . Havn't seen him post on his own thread in a while .


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## slowp (Apr 27, 2012)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Come on guy's. Get the chip's off your shoulders. Gee, I check out for a couple of days, and look what happens. Now set all of your yaw fighting aside and hear the truth about foresters & loggers.
> 
> There are a lot of foresters that are just flat out jerks, not all, but a good many. Add that to the lower level FS and state employee's that have something to prove, and.....Well, they all have green uniforms. So they all get lumped together.
> 
> ...



And I could reverse this. There are a few loggers out there who are bad loggers, cheats, and just plain crooks. It is amazing that they are still in business. They'll buy a small sale, read the contract and when the logging starts, so does the whining and cheating. Suddenly, the terms of the contract, that they signed and agreed to agree with mean nothing. Suddenly, they seem to have the right to bulldoze across the creek, run amok in an historical/botanical/wildlife etc. site that is OUTSIDE the unit boundary, take a few more trees because they needed more for a load, or just STEAL some trees. When caught, they blame it on the incompetent government. As if they were forced to buy the sale and sign the contract. 

A couple of GOOD loggers were asking me about getting jobs with the Forest Service right when the timber market crashed. They wanted to know how much I got paid and what benefits. I told them what my gross salary was. They thought that would do, just barely. I then told them how much my net salary was and the deductions taken out. They lost interest. When one questioned me on my health insurance, he figured that he had better coverage. Dental was not available at that time for us. Maybe it was on some obscure plan. He said it was not at all like he heard. One logger applied for a sale administrator job. He made the top three. He didn't get it. I would have liked to have seen him get it. He would have made good comments in the planning meetings. The guy has a lot of good, common sense. I would have liked to have seen planning meetings with him as a participant. It would have been good entertainment. I could see myself clapping and applauding. 



tramp bushler said:


> Well , I guess Matt got a good look at the battle between the gumint boys and the timber beasts . . Havn't seen him post on his own thread in a while .



I'm not a boy.


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## madhatte (Apr 27, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> the gumint boys



I started as a subcontractor working for whoever was paying. Gub'mint job was something I had to work into.


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## Samlock (Apr 27, 2012)

slowp said:


> And I could reverse this. There are a few loggers out there who are bad loggers, cheats, and just plain crooks. It is amazing that they are still in business. They'll buy a small sale, read the contract and when the logging starts, so does the whining and cheating. Suddenly, the terms of the contract, that they signed and agreed to agree with mean nothing. Suddenly, they seem to have the right to bulldoze across the creek, run amok in an historical/botanical/wildlife etc. site that is OUTSIDE the unit boundary, take a few more trees because they needed more for a load, or just STEAL some trees. When caught, they blame it on the incompetent government. As if they were forced to buy the sale and sign the contract.



A standard procedure.


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## wyk (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, Snowman, looks like you got a mini initiation of what to expect if you work logging vs forestry by the conversations and squabbling you've seen so far here.

If you ask me, and ya did, go in to firefighting first. It will prepare you physically and mentally, and learn ya pretty quick if you like being out in the forest. Get your 6 weeks of certs and take the tests. You may be a bit late for this years bug out tests. I think they usually occur in march or april. I have heard there are openings on some fire crews in the San Juaquin areas. I was offered a position just a couple months ago. However, ya need to be in shape. Firefighting at altitude in 100* weather with zero humidity on the side of a mountain isn't for everyone(whether they get respect or not). Again, it may be a little late. Ya may want to go take some forestry tech courses if the time has passed.

In all honesty, your cousin should at least be able to call around the other chiefs and find if there is a crew somewhere in Cali that has room for a seasonal. I've moved from Texas to Washington to Oregon to Ireland to England back to Washington again in search for work. Let your cousin know you are willing to relocate and see if he can make some calls.

WYK




Snowman 10-4 said:


> Hello, My name is Matt, and I was wondering if I could get some guidance from the members of this forum. I came here because I want to know more about the jobs and careers in the mountains. There is something about the Logging/Timber/Forestry industry that calls me, I love the mountains. Always have. I am still young at 21 years old, I got no big commitments right now, no GF's, no babies or a ton of debt. I got means of transportation and lots of determination. I only have a High-school diploma and a few college credits from the local CC and a EMT-B Cert. I feel I am at a crucial time to start doing something I really want to be doing. My main question is how someone like me can get started in this type of industry. Being from a south Orange County, CA surf town, I might seem like an unlikely guy to seek this type of work, however I am itching to get out of this way too crowded place. You can only handle so many Prius's/Commies/PunkRockers/Hipsters/Environmentalists...(so I figured I will piss them off and cut down all the trees) lol. Anyways, As of now, I only have limited knowledge of the Industry, most from reading on sites like this one. I want to learn skills like felling trees, and operating various types of equipment, anything along the logging process from a tree to a 2X4, or any other opportunities those skills can provide for work in the mountains. I also realize that it is a tough business, no job security and back-breaking work. But i'm willing to struggle. I'd rather spend my days working with my hands and getting the satisfaction of my own work. I would appreciate someone showing me the right direction. I have a couple of ideas already. My cousin works for the USFS as a Fire Captain, I have talked to him about wildland firefighting, which seems like a good way to get experience in the forest. They are not aloud to hire family members, so I have been trying to get on to a fire crew with USFS for over a year now. *snip*
> 
> Thanks a lot
> -Matt


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## Sagetown (Apr 27, 2012)

To the OP: There are plenty of logging jobs here along the Arkansas, Oklahoma border. To the north it's mostly hardwood (oak). In the Mountains to the south it's softwood (pine). Requirements are 1. Chainsaw. 2. Transportation. Education requirements are On Job Training.

My Dad was a California Logger. Before that he was a Junior in highschool at age 21, and got kicked out.

My brother was a California Fire Chief before education was a requirement. During his career he was paid to travel to LA to teach college classes to prospective firefighters the things he learned on the job. It's a crazy mixed up world.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

Naw , he ought to first take a road trip, get into timber country , do some pokin around and see whats what . What does he relate to most . 

First thing he's got t do is get there . Otherwise all this typing is a waste of time .


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## Gologit (Apr 27, 2012)

*Logging and/or college.*

I'm a logger and I went to college. 

I went to college mainly so I wouldn't have to be a logger forever. That, and the fact that my father would have killed me if I hadn't gone. I took a lot of classes and courses totally unrelated to anything that concerned logging...mostly courses that had a lot of pretty girls in them. I graduated from college totally prepared for life in the 17th century. 

After college nobody was particularly interested in hiring me so I joined the Army. That was 1967, a really bad time to join the Army.

After the Army I still wasn't very employable in anything that college or the Army had prepared me for....nothing that I wanted to do anyway. There were, however, logging jobs to be had. I caught on as a bucker for a year and then went full time as a faller. I've logged ever since.

Was my college education wasted? Maybe, if you look at it from a purely career preparation standpoint. But college exposed me to different ideas and different types of people that I wouldn't have been around otherwise. In college I learned that different viewpoints and opposing philosophies aren't always a bad thing. College taught me how to think on more than one level and that's stood me in good stead all my life.

Do you need college to be a logger? No, not really. But if you get your entire education from just working in the woods it might not be enough. Being a hard worker will only carry you so far. We live in a world of ever increasing complexity, both social and mechanical. A little college, or even a lot of college, will help you deal with that. Some of the best loggers I know have degrees in forestry.

And maybe in one of those classes with all the pretty girls in them you might discover something that you like better than logging. Can't hurt to find out.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

No prob with that . But you were IN LOGGIN COUNTRY . . It seems that is the first hurdle . 

I mean , you can't even be some @#$%&*+()+*&%[email protected] environmentalist if your not in timber country . 
Even the USFS . The F stands for forest . 

I mean , if a guy can't figure that out , maybe he needs to take more classes . 
Or , pull his head out.


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 27, 2012)

Don't worry, Im still here sitting back and listening to everybody. 

I pretty much decided not to go to college, It wasn't my thing. I'm not bashing it or anything, and I can respect someone that was able to complete it. But I just can't take another 4 years of sitting in a desk listening to lectures from lefty professors. However if I am able to find some courses pertaining to Forestry, ill take them. 

Some said I might not like the rural/mountain areas of the country. Well, although the perfect weather, good surf and hot girls are a plenty down here, I am ready to move on. I have family in MI, TN (in the middle of the Smokey Mountains), and FL. And my uncle always took me up to the mountains around here growing up. It would be a big change for me, especially since i've never lived through a "real" winter season.

I just need to start getting experience under my belt. I need to find a way in through the Forest Service, get my boots broken into, and save up all my money and learn new skills. Then ill need to start networking, and finding who all the players are in the Timber industry, I need to figure out where to go and how to get there, and if ill be able to support myself in the meantime. What ever I do along the way, Ill put 100% into it and prove myself, as a dependable worker. Someone that you would want on your team.


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## Snowman 10-4 (Apr 27, 2012)

Haywire said:


> Check this: It may be of interest to you: Basic Wildland Firefighters
> 
> Sometimes I wish I had finished up the Forestry schooling I started. At the time I needed a break, too and never went back. I get by fine without the degree, but there are some slow times when work is hard to find and it might have been nice to have it in my back pocket. My wife and I live a pretty minimalist lifestyle, don't have much, don't need much, so it all works out. At least I'm not shootin' squirrels for dinner anymore



wow, thanks for showing me this. Im checking it out right now.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

My wife is froom Barsto . She lived in Ketchikan for 3 years before I met her . I figured if she didn't run back south before I met her , then I prolly wouldn't have the problem of a wife wanting to GoSouth . I got tired of the dark winters on the coast so we moved to the Interior . She isn't enamered with the cold but she likes the hot wx in the summer . Plus we live in a tax free area so we have lots of freedom . .

I would prefer my nearest neighbor was a hundred miles away . But the Copper Basin is a good comprimise .
The biggest thing to enjoying winter is to have the gear so you arn't cold .


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## forestryworks (Apr 27, 2012)

Snowman 10-4 said:


> wow, thanks for showing me this. Im checking it out right now.



If you're not in shape for the pack test, start getting in shape now.

And if you do get on a wildland crew, show up on the job in shape. The job itself may put you in shape, but you'll be the weakest link in the crew then.

Oh, and the pack test is the easiest thing you'll do all season.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

What does the pack test consist of ?


I really should leave this alone .

So does everyone have to pass it . ? Girls too ?


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## stikine (Apr 27, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I really should leave this alone .



That's funny Tramp!
The "arduous" version of the pack test requires the individual to be able to walk 3 miles in 45 minutes (max) while carrying a 45 lb. pack. Obviously it's not too hard but it sets the bottom rung for folks wanting to work on the fireline. Hotshot crews and smokejumpers have additional minimum requirements they have to pass in order to qualify.


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## SliverPicker (Apr 27, 2012)

"I am going to call a bunch of Forest Station's today and see what is up."

Several people have suggested have some English classes. I would recommend the same thing. It's very important. HINT: The plural form of Forest Station is not Forest Station's. Its Forest Stations. Also, in this instance the words should not be capitalized. 

Other than that you have obviously given this much thought. I say go for it, man. No matter how your job search turns out it will be a great experience. Go north young man!


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## SliverPicker (Apr 27, 2012)

Haywire said:


> Check this: It may be of interest to you: Basic Wildland Firefighters
> 
> Sometimes I wish I had finished up the Forestry schooling I started. At the time I needed a break, too and never went back. I get by fine without the degree, but there are some slow times when work is hard to find and it might have been nice to have it in my back pocket. My wife and I live a pretty minimalist lifestyle, don't have much, don't need much, so it all works out. At least I'm not shootin' squirrels for dinner anymore




Don't worry about not finishing. I have a B.S. in forestry and never ever found a related job.


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## Rounder (Apr 27, 2012)

SliverPicker said:


> Don't worry about not finishing. I have a B.S. in forestry and never ever found a related job.



Lol, yup, college edjamacated timber faller here......probably get myself fired in a day doing any thing else anyways.....


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks Stik; :msp_w00t:
I'm gonna have FW so mad he won't be able to type . :msp_unsure::kilt::kilt::kilt::kilt:

I need t go t work somewhere .


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## forestryworks (Apr 27, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Thanks Stik; :msp_w00t:
> I'm gonna have FW so mad he won't be able to type . :msp_unsure::kilt::kilt::kilt::kilt:
> 
> I need t go t work somewhere .



Mad? Over this? I can't be bothered.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 27, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Mad? Over this? I can't be bothered.





opcorn::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Guido Salvage (Apr 27, 2012)

Snowman 10-4 said:


> But I just can't take another 4 years of sitting in a desk listening to lectures from lefty professors.



Hate to break it to you, but not all educators or institutions of higher learning are left leaning. Perhaps you should consider attending a church based institution if this is an issue.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 27, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> Hate to break it to you, but not all educators or institutions of higher learning are left leaning. Perhaps you should consider attending a church based institution if this is an issue.



questionable. depends which one. hard to teach something like geology without evolution. I have found forestry programs to be pragmatic, professional, science based, and practical, regardless of politics.


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## redprospector (Apr 28, 2012)

stikine said:


> That's funny Tramp!
> The "arduous" version of the pack test requires the individual to be able to walk 3 miles in 45 minutes (max) while carrying a 45 lb. pack. Obviously it's not too hard but it sets the bottom rung for folks wanting to work on the fireline. Hotshot crews and smokejumpers have additional minimum requirements they have to pass in order to qualify.



I took a pack test a couple of years ago, I completed it with only seconds to spare. I was pretty dissapointed in myself. I found out later that the person laying out the course didn't quite get their math right and that pack test was about 3 1/2 miles, so I started feeling a little better about myself.

Andy


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## Samlock (Apr 28, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I would prefer my nearest neighbor was a hundred miles away .



Ok, Tramp, now I know. You must be a Finn.


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## stikine (Apr 28, 2012)

redprospector said:


> I took a pack test a couple of years ago, I completed it with only seconds to spare. I was pretty dissapointed in myself. I found out later that the person laying out the course didn't quite get their math right and that pack test was about 3 1/2 miles, so I started feeling a little better about myself.
> 
> Andy



That's a good one Andy.:msp_biggrin: The first year I did the test there were a few of us that sort of turned it into a bit of a competition...I think I finished in just under 33 minutes if memory serves me. None of us got DQ'ed, but we were on the verge of running as opposed to walking. In later years (as wisdom set in) I would time it to finish in the 40-42 range, which is definitely more enjoyable.


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## wyk (Apr 28, 2012)

redprospector said:


> I took a pack test a couple of years ago, I completed it with only seconds to spare. I was pretty dissapointed in myself. I found out later that the person laying out the course didn't quite get their math right and that pack test was about 3 1/2 miles, so I started feeling a little better about myself.
> 
> Andy



When I joined I was 18. I could run 7 minute miles all day long, biked 40-80 miles a week(I had an awesome Pinarello back then), and took 3-6 hours of ju jutsu and karate a week. This all prepared me for working in the Sierras, but none of them even came remotely close to even making my first day comfortable. I thought for certain I was gonna die on the side of the mountain back then. My feet were literally bleeding the first week. And I was thirsty from dawn to sleep. The pack test just weeds out those that have no reason being in a crew. Cardio and endurance are important, but I would prepare for fire fighting by hiking up long trails with alot of elevation on them in heavy boots. Do not wear hiking shoes. I wish I had done that before I joined.

I too was told by my parent "Yer smart, stop working with your hands and go to college".I wish I had stuck with firefighting and forestry instead. However,I learned a LOT in 5 years of college obtaining a degree in industrial design, and minor in German and linguistics. Then there were all the girls...


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## slowp (Apr 28, 2012)

We used to poke fun at the Fire Gods. We would go out in all weather, come in, and they would be propped back in chairs, feet on desk, telling hunting stories. Now they spend the winters "training". 

I feel sorry for them. It looks to get pretty boring at times. If the fire season is like last year, they spend the summer being bored and looking sad. Oh well, they get to retire extra early because it is hard work.:msp_wink:


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## wyk (Apr 28, 2012)

Nah, Washington ain't for fires. It seems it's all Colorado and California. The area I ws based in California got 6" rain per year as an average. 

The nice thing is yer sweat actually cooled you off. The bad thing is you had to hydrate all day long. That was a lot of water.


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## Sagetown (Apr 28, 2012)

wyk said:


> When I joined *I was 18*. I could run 7 minute miles all day long, biked 40-80 miles a week(I had an awesome Pinarello back then), and took 3-6 hours of ju jutsu and karate a week. This all prepared me for working in the Sierras, but none of them even came remotely close to even making my first day comfortable. I thought for certain I was gonna die on the side of the mountain back then. My feet were literally bleeding the first week. And I was thirsty from dawn to sleep. The pack test just weeds out those that have no reason being in a crew. Cardio and endurance are important, but I would prepare for fire fighting by hiking up long trails with alot of elevation on them in heavy boots. Do not wear hiking shoes. I wish I had done that before I joined.
> 
> ..



My 1st mountain experience was at age 17 in the high Sierras in CA. Like you, I found it altogether a whole new ball game of physical fitness that I'll never forget.


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## Tillamook (Apr 28, 2012)

Interesting read I was surfing youtube recently and found a video I think it was family day or something but its a college course in yarder logging that Oregon State University does. I was just watching it thinking to my self going to colledge to learn how to be a logger Im sure there is some good info to learn but the people that take this course are in for a suprise when they get on for a real logging outfit lol Plus I could just imagine them arguing with the hooker telling him well thats not how we did it in college lol 

Here are the videos I found OSU Logging Program Family Day - YouTube OSU Logging Program Family Day - YouTube OSU Logging Program Family Day Tree Falling Demo - YouTube 

If these links dont work just do a search for OSU logging family day :msp_biggrin:

I agree move to logging country, find some companys and start trying to get on. I wish I would have started when I was your age or even right out of high school, i'm 27 now. I just starting working on the rigging 3 weeks ago and I love it!!! I am setting chokers, falling trees and pulling rigging. Once you start to get in shape or at least used to the abuse of being cut, gouged, falling down, twisting ankles, getting whipped in the face with brush or vineys, walking or running up and down steep rocky ground all day and much more its really a fun job!!! Its not for everyone they say but it is really something I enjoy! There is no greater satisfaction to me than going out working the sweat and blood right out of you (REAL WORK) and when you kick your boots off and sit down on the couch after a hard days work you really feel like you accomplished something! I have been a volunteer fire fighter for 8 years and they pay for any training I want I have my s130/190 and could go fight wildfire but thats just not my thing and you only get action during the fire season in most cases. When your logging you get action and adventure daily! and no two days are the same from what I have seen. "A bad day in the woods is better than a good day in the office!"

Good luck and keep us posted! If you make it out around Tillamook let me know I can point you in the direction of allot of logging outfits and allot of volunteer fire departments.There is also a wildland firefighting outfit out here that does allot of hiring all the time and they fight fire durring the season and plant trees the rest of the time.


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## Tillamook (Apr 28, 2012)

Also found this on the OSU logging program Welcome to the OSU Student Logging Training Program

I think its kinda a neat program but im not sure how it would be looked upon by the other guys on the crew.


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## forestryworks (Apr 28, 2012)

Tillamook said:


> Also found this on the OSU logging program Welcome to the OSU Student Logging Training Program
> 
> I think its kinda a neat program but im not sure how it would be looked upon by the other guys on the crew.



Everybody's gotta start somewhere. And for some folks, a school logging crew will be easier to hire on with than a commercial crew.


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## slowp (Apr 28, 2012)

Looks like they upgraded their carriage since 1990. They used to have a 10 week program that the Forest Service and foreign countries would send folks to. It was called FEI or Forest Engineering Institute. It was a cram course in planning for logging. I think it was the last week, we spent a morning splicing and then went out and worked with the Koller and a Christy carriage. Our class was short. We had rigged up an intermediate support. It lasted for 4 turns and then the trees it was rigged in pulled over.  Class over.
They were pretty worried about us getting hurt, which was OK. 

I do remember the trees being felled perfectly, in a herringbone pattern, like somebody had taken the time to do it well. I haven't ever seen that meticulous of a job of falling anywhere in the real world. I guess they had to so we newbies wouldn't skin up any of the leave trees. It was a thinning job.


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## stikine (Apr 28, 2012)

FEI was probably the highlight of any training I've had post college and I think the majority of it has great application in harvest planning & engineering. I've used those skills extensively while locating roads and laying out unit boundaries over the years.

You know what they say...knowledge is power...and you really can't have enough in this day and age of competition and slim profit margins.


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## Gologit (Apr 28, 2012)

Tillamook said:


> Im sure there is some good info to learn but the people that take this course are in for a suprise when they get on for a real logging outfit lol Plus I could just imagine them arguing with the hooker telling him well thats not how we did it in college lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:hmm3grin2orange: They'd only say that to the hooktender once. Then they'd either learn to listen or they'd learn the way to town.

Sounds like you're making the best of it. Good on ya.


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## redprospector (Apr 29, 2012)

wyk said:


> When I joined I was 18. I could run 7 minute miles all day long, biked 40-80 miles a week(I had an awesome Pinarello back then), and took 3-6 hours of ju jutsu and karate a week. This all prepared me for working in the Sierras, but none of them even came remotely close to even making my first day comfortable. I thought for certain I was gonna die on the side of the mountain back then. My feet were literally bleeding the first week. And I was thirsty from dawn to sleep. The pack test just weeds out those that have no reason being in a crew. Cardio and endurance are important, but I would prepare for fire fighting by hiking up long trails with alot of elevation on them in heavy boots. Do not wear hiking shoes. I wish I had done that before I joined.
> 
> I too was told by my parent "Yer smart, stop working with your hands and go to college".I wish I had stuck with firefighting and forestry instead. However,I learned a LOT in 5 years of college obtaining a degree in industrial design, and minor in German and linguistics. Then there were all the girls...



Hahaha! When I was 18 I could outrun a speeding bullet, stop a locomotive, and leap tall buildings in a single bound. But about the time I turned 40 something happened to me. I noticed it when I tripped over an antenna on one of those tall buildings.
When I turned 50 my chest fell, thankfully my wasteband stopped it or it would have gone all the way to my feet. 
I can still outwork most of the young guy's around here. Not because I'm still Super man, but because I've learned enough tricks to be able to get more done with a little less effort.

I spent my first 40 years trying to convince everyone that I was Super man. Since then I've been trying to convince them that I'm not. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Apr 29, 2012)

stikine said:


> That's a good one Andy.:msp_biggrin: The first year I did the test there were a few of us that sort of turned it into a bit of a competition...I think I finished in just under 33 minutes if memory serves me. None of us got DQ'ed, but we were on the verge of running as opposed to walking. In later years (as wisdom set in) I would time it to finish in the 40-42 range, which is definitely more enjoyable.



Haha. Yeah, if it ain't a competition it aint much fun. 
The first fire I was on contractors didn't have to have a red card. When I took the tests a couple of years ago they wouldn't give me a red card. I took their classes, and passed all their tests, but the FS said they couldn't issue me a red card because I didn't work for an agency. Said I should contact State Forestry. State Forestry said they couldn't issue me a red card unless I worked on one of their crew's. They said I should go back to the FS. :bang: Went back to FS, they said that I should hire on with a contractor that has a couple of engines, and quit once I had my card.  I told them that I didn't do things that way, and that if they decided that they needed any contract fallers they could call me and we'd negotiate a red card then. I guess they never needed any contract fallers cuz my phone didn't ring. 
In 2000 I was a C faller. Now I'm just a lowely thinning contractor. 

Andy


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## Gologit (Apr 29, 2012)

redprospector said:


> When I turned 50 my chest fell, thankfully my wasteband stopped it or it would have gone all the way to my feet.
> I can still outwork most of the young guy's around here. Not because I'm still Super man, but because I've learned enough tricks to be able to get more done with a little less effort.
> 
> 
> ...



Yup. I still weigh the same as I did in High School. It's just arranged differently. A lot differently.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 29, 2012)

When your young yyou can be quick afoot , but as you season you get Tough . I'de rather be tough than able to run a race . Course I'm not out pullin riggin on a mountain side either .


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## tramp bushler (Apr 29, 2012)

Samlock said:


> Ok, Tramp, now I know. You must be a Finn.



Nope . Scottish . Highlander actually , got my own castle an tartan . :kilt:


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## tramp bushler (Apr 29, 2012)

Ah Ha . Now it comes out . 
Time for a fresh assault :angry2:

It really sucks when the elitest , college edjucates close a guy out because they lack what they see standing in front of them . 
Government employees if they in anyway feel intimidated they will close you off . I learned the hard way not to shake their hand . And I didn't even squeeze . 

This post is a reply based on Andy's post about being Eliminated from fighting fires .


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## Gologit (Apr 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Ah Ha . Now it comes out .
> Time for a fresh assault :angry2:
> 
> It really sucks when the elitest , college edjucates close a guy out because they lack what they see standing in front of them .
> ...



Okay, but what would we replace them with? If we have government we need government employees. I've run across some pretty good ones...and a few idiots, too. I see the same thing in the private sector. Good and bad both.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 29, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> questionable. depends which one. hard to teach something like geology without evolution. I have found forestry programs to be pragmatic, professional, science based, and practical, regardless of politics.



BS . 
It's easy to propound a dogma(evolution) when everyone closes their mind to the bulk of the evidence that disproves that dogma .


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## tramp bushler (Apr 29, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Okay, but what would we replace them with? If we have government we need government employees. I've run across some pretty good ones...and a few idiots, too. I see the same thing in the private sector. Good and bad both.




Since gov. Employment has grown faster than any other sector . And is perpetuated by gov. Empliyees far more than the population base requires , something needs to be done . 

In private business , if you don't make it you don't get it . Here on this thread we have young people extolling JOB SECURITY "gov employment" with no real understanding of who pays for their continued perpetual income . 
Surely no one thinks a gov employee actually creates welth do they .


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## Samlock (Apr 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Nope . Scottish . Highlander actually , got my own castle an tartan . :kilt:



Acute distaste for authorities, prefer busheling, ability to take cold winters, don't mind working alone, loves the neighbors more the further they live...That's another explanation indeed!

I have lived a year in Scotland in 90's. Central Belt Lowlands it was, yet I had impression that the Highlanders are quite eccentric characters too.


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## slowp (Apr 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Since gov. Employment has grown faster than any other sector . And is perpetuated by gov. Empliyees far more than the population base requires , something needs to be done .
> 
> In private business , if you don't make it you don't get it . Here on this thread we have young people extolling JOB SECURITY "gov employment" with no real understanding of who pays for their continued perpetual income .
> Surely no one thinks a gov employee actually creates welth do they .



As I said before, there is no job security anywhere. Geesh, maybe I should have come in at 10:00, required purchasers to request that I come out IN WRITING and then wait till the tenth day.  Tramp, you have a very narrow and biased outlook when it comes to Gov. Employees. Too bad. By the way, I've seen nothing but downsizing and FEWER employees in the Forest Service. I could probably back this up with figures and facts, but I need to get out and mow the grass. I assume that is the agency you no longer shake hands with? Also, when shaking hands, please realize that the squeeze game really hurts when it comes to feminine hands. I actually yelled at a guy to quit hurting my hand. I thought he was going to break it.


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## KiwiBro (Apr 29, 2012)

*You're all wrong.*

Everyone knows all the useless, deviant, scheming idjits are in HR. Both private and public sector. That is all. You're welcome.

This thread is like saying all politicians are self-serving and untrustworthy. What a load of...ummm...well...hold on...there could be something to that...bad example.


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## bigalalexander (Apr 29, 2012)

*working in the timber*

Hello My friend 
Many many years ago 1975 I was 15 years old and wanted nothing but to cut timber in the northwest . I grew up in VT . So off I went to northern Idaho to seek my dream . And low and behold I did .! Although I was childhood timberfalling prodigy it just took determination and dont take no for a answer .!!! I still am in the logging business in VT 
I did go on to have a carreer as a pilot but the timber called me back . So I built a sawmill and went into the logging and sawmill business . not running the mill now but still logging . 
Come to Vt and I will break you in


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## slowp (Apr 29, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Everyone knows all the useless, deviant, scheming idjits are in HR. Both private and public sector. That is all. You're welcome.
> 
> This thread is like saying all politicians are self-serving and untrustworthy. What a load of...ummm...well...hold on...there could be something to that...bad example.



Well, like I said before, but apparently didn't type slow enough for some people to read, it's the same attitude that the enviros have that all loggers are cheating timber thiefs and don't give a hoot about the condition of the land. It is a narrow minded view, by folks who have no idea what really goes on. Nuff said--unless some folks want facts and figures looked up. 

The grass is cut, the rain can fall.


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## KiwiBro (Apr 29, 2012)

*Absolutes seem pointless.*

As this is the thread for ranting, here goes...:

Surely no sector is without it's useless idjits, just as every sector has some absolute champions at the other end of the spectrum?

As a "city slicker" who's now enjoying getting to the end of each very long day with no money in his pocket and no energy left in his tired, bleeding and bruised body, I'm somewhat 'conflicted'. Sure, there ain't no use on the hillside for an object orientated programmer who stands out like a sore thumb some days and has very little bush sense, but every one-eyed tosser (anybody, and in my real world, there's a few of them) that wants to pigeon-hole me as someone who won't last long in the bush will be served their words and I'll expect every one of said bastards to eat and choke on them if need be. 

This city slicker will earn respect the old fashioned way - hard, bloody work, owning my mistakes, never giving up, and never backing down when his principles are being tested, putting his ego aside to ask and learn, and if anyone still has a problem with that they can kiss my once chair-warming, city-dwelling arse.

I've been fortunate to work in a few varied sectors over the years and there have been brilliant people in all of them, and useless idjits too, but to suggest any sector holds a mortgage on incompetence or laziness is misguided. I'm not denying that some jobs expose said undesirable traits faster than others, but that doesn't automatically mean other jobs or sectors knowingly harbour or foster such traits either. 

/rant


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## tramp bushler (Apr 29, 2012)

Slowp ; I would never shake a ladies hand hard . I'm not talkin about shakin a girls hand . And I didn't try to get the grab on those guys . They were just effeminate males who must not have had a dad to teach them how to give a man a hand shake . 

Yup I have an extremly narrow opinion of most everyone who wants to bother me in the pursuit of turning Alaska into a stump patch .

And yes , I'm 100% pro PEBBLE !!!!!!


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## bigalalexander (Apr 29, 2012)

*A few words of advise*

Matt 
Just to continue where I left off . It was not easy to break in even in those days . I was meet with much doubt not so much my age but the fact I was from back East And would never be able to fall timber in the northwest . Well I did and went on all over the west falling timber. Ended up falling for Columbia Helicopters With some of the best timber fallers in the World and was very well respected . So go get it


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## Driver625 (Apr 29, 2012)

*bigalexander*

Where abouts are you in Vermont.


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## RandyMac (Apr 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Nope . Scottish . Highlander actually , got my own castle an tartan . :kilt:



not a Campbell are ya?


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## hammerlogging (Apr 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> BS .
> It's easy to propound a dogma(evolution) when everyone closes their mind to the bulk of the evidence that disproves that dogma .



Burn coal?

I guess I can sleep better knowing the earth is in fact the center of the solar system. Glad its flat too, too bad North America is on the underside though.


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## bigalalexander (Apr 30, 2012)

Driver625 said:


> Where abouts are you in Vermont.



Iam in far northwestern corner of Vt Swanton


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## Joe46 (Apr 30, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Yup. I still weigh the same as I did in High School. It's just arranged differently. A lot differently.



Ah- The dreaded furniture disease.
Where your chest falls into your drawers!


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## tramp bushler (Apr 30, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> not a Campbell are ya?



No , most definatly not a Cambell !


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## tramp bushler (Apr 30, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> Burn coal?
> 
> I guess I can sleep better knowing the earth is in fact the center of the solar system. Glad its flat too, too bad North America is on the underside though.



.
Huh .


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## lfnh (Apr 30, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> No , most definatly not a Cambell !



Munro ?


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## Driver625 (Apr 30, 2012)

bigalalexander said:


> Iam in far northwestern corner of Vt Swanton



Been through there couple times on the way to Alburg. The boss tells me the diner with the big window on 78 is a good place for breakfast. Never have time to stop. He goes up to Alburg just about every weekend during the summer. Did you go to Fourniers auction? If you did was there anything good?


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## hammerlogging (Apr 30, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> .
> Huh .



yeah its ok i cut for a guy thats just about that far out there too- I can only imagine what he thinks about my take on some things. We have been around each other long anough now that we can make fun of each others sides pretty well now, though it was shocking, and a bit dicey, early on (you think WHAT?) 

Of course, i gave up on conspiracy theories. Give me one worth actually believing and I may pay attention.


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## tramp bushler (May 1, 2012)

lfnh said:


> Munro ?



Nope . 

Ancestors of mine fought beside Robert the Bruce against the english
.


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## bigalalexander (May 4, 2012)

*Aburgh*

Ya that diner can be good havent been there in years though . No did not go to the auction this year . Last time I went I did score a real nice chip bucket for my Volvo loader .


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## bigalalexander (May 4, 2012)

*Falling stories*

You would like to hear falling stories . well I really should write a book about all my falling travels starting with horses in the 35 below winters of past . To falling for Columbia on the coast . I often dont believe it all happened . And still doing today .


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## bigalalexander (May 4, 2012)

*Falling*

What would be the best advice I could give you . Keep your sights on the target and dont give up .


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## Wow (Jan 13, 2022)

2dogs said:


> Cal Fire is a good place to start. You have to be persistent!!! Find out when the application process begins and submit to every unit you can drive to. Try to do ride-alongs with any fire district or department. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Visit every USFS fire station or ranger headquarters you can find. Show up dressed cleanly with a collared shirt, no black death metal t-shirt or beer logo shirt. Your car should have no political or other bumper stickers. Bring a lunch but be prepared to buy lunch.
> 
> Your best bet in the short run may be a local tree service though if you are not from Mexico you have a strike against you. Defineately learn to speak Spanish at your local CC, but also ask everyone you work with who speaks Spanish to help you out. Apply at lumberyards (if there is such a thing in SoCal). Take an arborist course online. Never watch Ax Men! If you see a large tree job stop and find a safe place to watch the process.
> 
> Oh, and keep taking classes at your CC, esp English. Learn what a paragraph is.


Because I noticed American is becoming a Multi-language nation I began studying Spanish a couple years ago. It's free on line. The App I use is Duolingo. The free version. Get a notebook write down every word. Learn the infinitive form of verbs make a list. Verbs change often. Yo hablo =I speak. Tu hablas=You Speak. El habla = He speaks. That's just one example. It's not easy but it can be done. Reading Children's books in Spanish helps. Watching movies in Spanish with captions helps. Chicken = Pollo. The ll is pronounced like an English Y. Po-yo. Pronouncing Spanish is totally different than English. Duo will help. SOME Mexicans don't Speak Spanish correctly. But a Spanish speaking Amigo is good. Good luck.


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## Wow (Jan 13, 2022)

tramp bushler said:


> Isn't there a Forestry management forum on AS .
> And fire fighting , fightin fires isn't loggin .
> When it comes to loggin + fallin timber I have little to no respect for forest fire fighters .
> 
> If someone is a fire fighter and likes it Great . But they arn't loggers . And if they actually do falling on a fire line, thats just gettin them on the ground . Thats only half the job of a single jack faller . . Any dummy can tree length . Well maybe not anyone .


Ok, at 75, I bucked two big oaks today and just piddle because I can't stop..It's like alcohol..Gotta hear that saw screaming..BUT,, I have to tell this story..Many years ago I joined a local volunteer Fire Department and during ice storms or high winds not only did we fight fires we cleared Roads.. Everything in Volunteer Fire Departments is political kinda like in Churches. So, our Trucks were equipped with Shtil 029 saws.. NO safety equipment, Few men knew how to actually operate the saws properly.. At my residence I had my 60cc Timber saw, a real Poulan Pro 380 back when Poulan was still considered a good saw..Of course I kept it tuned and the chain razor sharp..Before day light a huge storm blew trees down and it was cold and windy..I got a call but was told to meed a truck and crew on location.. I arrived and they had one of the Little 029 saws cranked. It had a small tooth safety chain and the operator was pinching the bar on almost every attempt..I dropped the tail gate and fired up my saw with my head light on so I could see because it was dark. I had arrived on the opposite side of the tree than the crew so I began cutting..I called a hand to pull limbs and we never slowed down.. in a few minutes the Chief realized I was out cutting the crew so he told them to put the Sthil away and had everyone rolling blocks and pulling limbs..We made quick work of that tree and went to more.. Next day I got a call to come to the Fire Station for a meeting.. My new assignment was to run the Tree Clearing crews..I became a Captain and got a truck..I was there for over 15 years.. The Politics got so nasty I resigned as a commissioner, vice president, and captain.. I left and most of the guys who worked with me left too....So in my case,, Knowing how to work trees actually went hand and hand in fire fighting..Warning.. Working trees is habit forming.. Ha. Ha. Have a great night and learn how to file a chain..Ha. Ha..


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