# Percentage of people strictly looking for cheap



## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

I had an interesting conversation with an Austin, Texas tree service owner the other day about how the percentage of people just looking for cheap and cheap alone has tripled in the last 20 years. We both had the same number in mind...if you take PHC/diagnosis/treatment out of the equation and just count the callers that want pruning and or removal the number would be around 45% or almost half. Probably 15% twenty years ago. Of course that's just in our necks of the woods. When I say only looking for cheap I mean price is the ONLY factor they consider when hiring someone to do the job. They don't want to hear about references, insurance, certs, degrees, all the equipment you have or anything else. They just want to hear cheap.


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## hannontree1 (Apr 21, 2013)

i totally agree im in florida small company not alot of over head and still cant beat prices being given i blam door knockers here and by that i mean they guys that have a pick up a ladder and no clue what a saddle or lanyard is the give home owner price and then when i show up to give estimate they think im to high priced but im all legal and follow the rules


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

hannontree1 said:


> i totally agree im in florida small company not alot of over head and still cant beat prices being given i blam door knockers here and by that i mean they guys that have a pick up a ladder and no clue what a saddle or lanyard is the give home owner price and then when i show up to give estimate they think im to high priced but im all legal and follow the rules



Yep, door knockers are a problem...door knockers, illegal aliens, landscape companies that want to horn in on tree work and have some old drunk at the ready if they hook a tree job, two bit operators with no insurance or equipment, folks working under the table, etc. ,etc.


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## cedar (Apr 21, 2013)

Most of the time it is the large trees that go cheap. I recently bid on a large Siberian elm, over a fence, power line, and busy road. The "professionals" doing the work quoted $750 and they were not even the lowest bid. I know they will go out of business, but as it has been said before, there is always be someone to replace them.


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## hannontree1 (Apr 21, 2013)

i agree again and it hurts all of us from are pricing to what are insurance cost is


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

cedar said:


> Most of the time it is the large trees that go cheap. I recently bid on a large Siberian elm, over a fence, power line, and busy road. The "professionals" doing the work quoted $750 and they were not even the lowest bid. I know they will go out of business, but as it has been said before, there is always be someone to replace them.



Yes, it seems there is always someone to replace them season after season, year after year.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 21, 2013)

One of the most ironic things in arboriculture is the ability for the know nothing hacks to sell up customers regardless of their low ranking levels of experience and knowledge of the tree care industry. Nothing that can be said or done can stop them either. They love what they do, and their customers just play into their hands. These are master sales people (rhetoricians) though, and they are not masters of technical arboriculture. 

They work hard on sales and relationships with the customers, and then they wing the job, top the tree, and they get out of there very pleased. One thing they don't do is sell work for cheap. They sell BS tree work for high prices which is what is ironic about these people. 

A rule of thumb is that if the job went to the cheapest bidder, one of these salesmen were not there to put in his price against the rest. They are masters of rhetoric not of tree care, and they make the most money in every industry based less on their technical knowledge and skills than their personable abilities. That's always been a fact.

Rhetoric - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the customer goes with lowest bid, a lot of times it's because everyone bidding was a personable dud in the customer's mind.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 21, 2013)

And their bread and butter is door-to-door.

Bill Clinton is a good example of a rhetorician. Imagine if Bill only put signs on the trucks, and put out some business cards. His sales would be lower than if he went out there door to do what he is clearly able to do which is get to know strangers and talking trees. Now customers are falling for getting arbo work done, and paying the higher price is not so painful. The man made their day.

Imagine if Bill were climbing the trees instead. What a waste of talent and money.


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2013)

I think that during the last 20 years you all have been hammering them with outrageous prices to keep youselves in diamonds and fur and now the tables have been turned. They have had it, its a revolution!


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

treemandan said:


> I think that during the last 20 years you all have been hammering them with outrageous prices to keep youselves in diamonds and fur and now the tables have been turned. They have had it, its a revolution!



Ha. I've been hammering them with prices just high enough to stay in business.


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## Stephen Barnes (Apr 21, 2013)

*cheap*

I find that people are looking for a good deal and are more aggressive when negotiating the price but are scared of cheap cheap. This is judging form the words I put in my adds. If I say affordable I get more replies than when I say cheap. But true, people don't value quality of work or customer service as much as they used to.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 21, 2013)

Educating the CL moron on the true costs of treework is a great way to hone your business skills....or be driven to drink. I mean look at all of the firewood you are gonna get from that takedown! You should be paying me for my tree! Some of it is sinking into them thar thick skulls though.... do it for free requests but please be insured!!! Seriously! SERIOUSLY!!! You sir are hitting yourself in the head with the wrong end of the hammer. I sure as hell do not miss that customer base....they are unwitting enablers to junkies and alcoholics and do not know it or do not care as long as the price is right. Cop an attitude with me when I let you know how big of a fool you are! Threaten me with the loss of your $1800 removal business that you want done for twofiddy! Shove that tree up yer cornhole and spend the rest of yer life digging out splinters!


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 21, 2013)

A lot of farmers went broke because they felt they needed every possible piece of equipment even tho they didn't have a real need to own it.

Tree workers have done the same, instead of renting equipment or doing it the hard way they went out and bought tools they really seldom need then they have to up their price to try to get all of their customers to pay for stuff not needed often. The resulting cost to the homeowner often means needed work doesn't get done, or some one will do it for less. Many homeowners would rather not have the "two guys and a pickup" but that's all they can afford.

Many tree people, who work for less than the over equipped ones, are good at working with trees and do quality work.

Whine all you want, it doesn't put money in your pocket. Accept it, you have priced yourself out of your market.


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## mikewhite85 (Apr 21, 2013)

The percentage of people whose only criteria is price is more a question of marketing. If you market yourself to the people who are willing to pay more, then you will not get as many of the people who only want to hire lowballers. For instance, if you have a professional website and talk a lot about quality, people will know you are not the lowest price operation in town. You will get customers who care about quality.

On the flip side, if the name of your company is "Affordable tree Care" or something similar, and on your website it talks about how you have competitive prices you will get a lot more calls from those kinds of people. 

It's the difference between this:
Finch Tree

and this:

INEXPENSIVE TREE SERVICES


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

Stephen Barnes said:


> I find that people are looking for a good deal and are more aggressive when negotiating the price but are scared of cheap cheap. This is judging form the words I put in my adds. If I say affordable I get more replies than when I say cheap. But true, people don't value quality of work or customer service as much as they used to.



There again, I think a lot of it has to do with where you are geographically. About half of them around here aren't scared of cheap cheap. And I think that's probably true of anywhere in the South or Southwest based on folks in the business I have conversed with over the last couple of years. And yes, people don't value quality of work or customer service as much as they used to, at least in my area.


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> A lot of farmers went broke because they felt they needed every possible piece of equipment even tho they didn't have a real need to own it.
> 
> Tree workers have done the same, instead of renting equipment or doing it the hard way they went out and bought tools they really seldom need then they have to up their price to try to get all of their customers to pay for stuff not needed often. The resulting cost to the homeowner often means needed work doesn't get done, or some one will do it for less. Many homeowners would rather not have the "two guys and a pickup" but that's all they can afford.
> 
> ...



Something tells me you don't have much equipment.


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

mikewhite85 said:


> The percentage of people whose only criteria is price is more a question of marketing.



There is more to it than that. At least here.


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> One of the most ironic things in arboriculture is the ability for the know nothing hacks to sell up customers regardless of their low ranking levels of experience and knowledge of the tree care industry. Nothing that can be said or done can stop them either. They love what they do, and their customers just play into their hands. These are master sales people (rhetoricians) though, and they are not masters of technical arboriculture.
> 
> They work hard on sales and relationships with the customers, and then they wing the job, top the tree, and they get out of there very pleased. One thing they don't do is sell work for cheap. They sell BS tree work for high prices which is what is ironic about these people.
> 
> ...



F N A Right!


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Whine all you want, it doesn't put money in your pocket. Accept it, you have priced yourself out of your market.



I took a look at that and found you wrong. In 1993 we were getting $975.00 a day for a four man tree crew and equipment. That wasn't enough but the market around here would support that and very, very few people considered using the hackaroos trying to get work for same size crew at $400.00 to $500.00 a day. Very few. What cost $975.00 in 1993 would cost $1525.86 in 2013 and we are charging $1,400.00 a day for a four man crew and equipment...again it's not really enough, but no, I DID NOT price myself out of business. In fact we should be charging $125.86 a day more with inflation. The problem is, nowadays there are hacks and illegals working the same size crew for $600.00 to $700.00 a day and people are using them. Like I said, on trimming and removals 45% of them are using them.


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## deevo (Apr 21, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> I took a look at that and found you wrong. In 1993 we were getting $975.00 a day for a four man tree crew and equipment. That wasn't enough but the market around here would support that and very, very few people considered using the hackaroos trying to get work for same size crew at $400.00 to $500.00 a day. Very few. What cost $975.00 in 1993 would cost $1525.86 in 2013 and we are charging $1,400.00 a day for a four man crew and equipment...again it's not really enough, but no, I DID NOT price myself out of business. In fact we should be charging $125.86 a day more with inflation. The problem is, nowadays there are hacks and illegals working the same size crew for $600.00 to $700.00 a day and people are using them. Like I said, on trimming and removals 45% of them are using them.



I haven't been in the business as long as you mckee but yeah even the big green machine and a few other of the bigger co's around me have dropped their prices pretty substantially just to get work and keep their hourly employees going. I have a lot of loyal customers, and do work for the county, my local township and insurance companies so I don't really have to haggle with them. There was a good article in this months TCIA magazine about sales and stuff, found it pretty interesting. Today I sold a pretty big job, $2500 worth of work, using a crane etc.... lady was happy with my price. Will take us about 7 hours, only need the crane for likely 1.5-2 hours max, one narly 3 stem birch over the house/hydro. Septic in front so no bucket. Then deadwooding some big maples, hedge trim, 3 small stumps. So after paying the crane will still make a good buck. I price by the job, not man hours. We can rock some big removals in a short amount of time! I bid on 15 jobs in the past week and have gotten them all priced what they should be priced at. I was a bit higher on a few but talked to the customers about how we are going to do them and stressed safety etc.....plus we are only one of a hand full of companies who have WSIB (workers comp) for you guys in my area. I use that as a selling point as well to customers. Like some have said guess it's whatever geographical area you are in. We do have the local hacks and stuff but they can't handle the big jobs nor do they have the proper equipment/training. It's too bad some area's the industry has gotten like this, but it has unfortunately.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 21, 2013)

Cheap advertising and readily available knowledge has an effect on the industries. I'm not sure what significance that has on our pricing though. 

5 year olds can advertise tree service wor what ever they want online these days. A high schooler could take a piece of the market just by following arbos and their tree videos/educational websites online. It's not hard for greenies to be inspired and get wet in the same neighborhood as the tree vets. 

Take everything back the other way, and make advertising and the internet geyser of knowledge something very expensive and difficult to handle kept out of sight. That's when the prices will come back up because there will be fewer cheap arbos advertising their phone numbers online saying they will do your tree work for next to nothing.


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## Blakesmaster (Apr 21, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> A lot of farmers went broke because they felt they needed every possible piece of equipment even tho they didn't have a real need to own it.
> 
> Tree workers have done the same, instead of renting equipment or doing it the hard way they went out and bought tools they really seldom need then they have to up their price to try to get all of their customers to pay for stuff not needed often. The resulting cost to the homeowner often means needed work doesn't get done, or some one will do it for less. Many homeowners would rather not have the "two guys and a pickup" but that's all they can afford.
> 
> ...




I think this attitude is part of the reason prices are low in our industry. I have no, that is 0, interest in dicing big wood up with a saw and throwing it by hand into a pickup ever again as I was forced to do a few years back. Nor will I even be able to do that 10-20 years from now as my body starts giving out.


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## hannontree1 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think we all got off track who cares how big you are or small if your leagal insured liecened workers comp charge What you think Is far but how do you compete with the guy thats not and elegaly dumping


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## Pelorus (Apr 21, 2013)

Years ago I paid (and continue to pay for) a business line in order to be able to advertise in the Yellow Pages, in order to have a marketing advantage over new start-ups and hacks. Doesn't work so well anymore cause anybody can advertise they are an arborist or tree service biz on places like Kijiji, Craigslist, or a website, and less and less people bother using the Yellow Pages.

I think the residential market is becoming tougher and tougher, and I am going to be focusing more on commercial / municipal / insurance work. To that end I have increased my liability ins. coverage, and now have Worker's Comp. A repeat customer base is great, as are referrals, but I think there is less brand loyalty nowadays, especially with younger homeowners.


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## mckeetree (Apr 21, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Years ago I paid (and continue to pay for) a business line in order to be able to advertise in the Yellow Pages, in order to have a marketing advantage over new start-ups and hacks. Doesn't work so well anymore cause anybody can advertise they are an arborist or tree service biz on places like Kijiji, Craigslist, or a website, and less and less people bother using the Yellow Pages.
> 
> I think the residential market is becoming tougher and tougher, and I am going to be focusing more on commercial / municipal / insurance work. To that end I have increased my liability ins. coverage, and now have Worker's Comp. A repeat customer base is great, as are referrals, but I think there is less brand loyalty nowadays, especially with younger homeowners.



Makes sense.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 22, 2013)

This is important to know about commercial. Bad residential tree care doesn't totally ruin an HO's reputation. Bad commercial tree care does ruin a business person's reputation and investments though. 

Business people are protecting their public image with the orderliness of their landscapes in order to retain brand value to their target market. If the hacks do in their trees, they lose face to the public, and they lose money on their investments. They sure as h will not let anyone do that to them. Business people are more defensive about who they do business with for that reason. Home owners would let a jailer and a group of thugs with broken bit english get the work done if it only meant they had to pay a small price for the amateurs' tree work. Business people would almost rather see all of that none sense stay in jail as apposed to let them on their property, support them none what so ever, and prevent them from messing with their business investments. 

This means pros and pros only are able to cross the barrier into commercial. The market is impossible to get into without adequate equipment, experienced, pro minded staff, etc. Then there's that long, focused merge into the market with the rest of the commercial companies. Idiots and hacks don't stand a chance at that. They either need to try to get on board a commercial outfit that already has a corner of the market locked, and then see if they can keep up with the commercial company, or they have to just keep poking at it with worthless prices on residential work. 

At least hacks don't drag down the prices on the commercial work.


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## beastmaster (Apr 22, 2013)

mikewhite85 said:


> The percentage of people whose only criteria is price is more a question of marketing. If you market yourself to the people who are willing to pay more, then you will not get as many of the people who only want to hire lowballers. For instance, if you have a professional website and talk a lot about quality, people will know you are not the lowest price operation in town. You will get customers who care about quality.
> 
> On the flip side, if the name of your company is "Affordable tree Care" or something similar, and on your website it talks about how you have competitive prices you will get a lot more calls from those kinds of people.
> 
> ...



I recently started doing a lady's trees in Pasadena who used Finch's for years. I have my little truck, a 12 ft trailer and all my equipment, no employees, and use someone elses ins. I'm sure I'm doing her trees considerably cheaper then finch did, and if they drove by while I was working they would be adding to this thread, but I assure you I do as good if not better work then they do, and I'm making what I feel is great money on that job. As soon as I get my contractors lic. and own insurance, me and my little trailer will be out doing highend jobs for less. I have little overhead, no employees, and know trees. That may be the business plan of the future.


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## chief116 (Apr 22, 2013)

Apparently Juan, Pedro, and Julio are very good salesmen if they convince Tom, #### and Harry Homeowner to use them with Spanglish, hand signals and mcdonald's napkin estimate sheets, instead of you fellows. When was the last time you looked at your own reputations?


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## no tree to big (Apr 22, 2013)

chief116 said:


> Apparently Juan, Pedro, and Julio are very good salesmen if they convince Tom, #### and Harry Homeowner to use them with Spanglish, hand signals and mcdonald's napkin estimate sheets, instead of you fellows. When was the last time you looked at your own reputations?



Hearing these daily targets is depressing our 4 man removal crew aims for 4500-5k a day and our 3 man trim crews go about 3k a day...


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## mckeetree (Apr 23, 2013)

no tree to big said:


> Hearing these daily targets is depressing our 4 man removal crew aims for 4500-5k a day and our 3 man trim crews go about 3k a day...



Hey, you think you are depressed. What about me? I should be suicidal.


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## Pelorus (Apr 23, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> I have my little truck, a 12 ft trailer and all my equipment, no employees, and use someone elses ins. I have little overhead, no employees, and know trees. That may be the business plan of the future.



My business is not much bigger, except for a dump trailer, miniskid, and chipper.
Two other tree services get subbed out to help me when a job requires additional iron. They are guys that I have worked with for years. They enlist me to climb for them sometimes.
Strategic alliances with guys you can trust is a force multiplier. I've been burned a few times too, but being able to have a couple of good working business relationships with other guys in this industry is what works for me.


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## mckeetree (Apr 23, 2013)

Del_ said:


> That will be changing in the future, you can bank on it.



I read an article the other day about how the illegal invasion, the 1986 amnesty and now the pending amnesty of 15,000,000 illegal aliens has and is reducing what you can get for any green industry job. In the South we have been feeling that since the mid nineties. The 1986 amnesty opened the flood gates for millions of illegals to come here in the following years and you know this one will too...I figure you guys "up north" will feel it pretty soon.


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## mckeetree (Apr 23, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> being able to have a couple of good working business relationships with other guys in this industry is what works for me.



Is that why several tree guys around here keep wanting to get involved with us at some level. The ones I'm talking about around here really don't have anything to offer me except if I hired them to climb and climbers I already have. There is one in particular if I see his truck at a restaurant I was thinking of stopping at I just cruise on by to somewhere else. I really don't know him too well but he always acts we are the biggest buddies in the world and slaps me on the back and goes on with a bunch of goofy ####.


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## Pelorus (Apr 23, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Is that why several tree guys around here keep wanting to get involved with us at some level. The ones I'm talking about around here really don't have anything to offer me except if I hired them to climb and climbers I already have. There is one in particular if I see his truck at a restaurant I was thinking of stopping at I just cruise on by to somewhere else. I really don't know him too well but he always acts we are the biggest buddies in the world and slaps me on the back and goes on with a bunch of goofy ####.



Has gotta be a reciprocal thing that benefits both parties equally. Otherwise, one guy is contributing a rabbit to the stew, while the other guy donates an elephant. That ain't gonna fly very well or very long. Ask me how I know, cause my elephant herd gradually got decimated.
I have zero inclination to take on more debt or employees.


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## hannontree1 (Apr 23, 2013)

i have managed for big companies and been the small guy now im the middle guy one chip truck one log truck one crane and the middle is good no headaches like the big companies they know what i mean and being the small guy just sucks but i still say who cares how big or small if your legal its they guys with no insurance and no clue who screw us all in the long run


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## mckeetree (Apr 23, 2013)

hannontree1;4289291 and being the small guy just sucks [/QUOTE said:


> When I started 26 years ago I was a micro guy, and yes, that sucked. Small would have been too big a word to describe me. I was 26 years old with no money to amount to anything and not much credit. I hear guys say they don't want debt and they don't want employees but that's the only way I ever got going. How could I get anything worth a #### to work with without going in debt? I maintain a fair amount of debt today but it helps manage taxes somewhat. One thing though that was better back then...back in those days a homeowner could get bids from three tree services and there wouldn't be a nickels worth of difference in the three. Today they get three and you have something like $1,725.00 , $1,690.00 and some idiot comes in at $300.00 or some such. I remember when you just didn't see that. With all NAA (now TCIA) and ISA has done the industry was more professional in many ways 26 years ago than it is today.


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## mckeetree (Apr 24, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> When I started 26 years ago I was a micro guy, and yes, that sucked. Small would have been too big a word to describe me. I was 26 years old with no money to amount to anything and not much credit. I hear guys say they don't want debt and they don't want employees but that's the only way I ever got going. How could I get anything worth a #### to work with without going in debt? I maintain a fair amount of debt today but it helps manage taxes somewhat. One thing though that was better back then...back in those days a homeowner could get bids from three tree services and there wouldn't be a nickels worth of difference in the three. Today they get three and you have something like $1,725.00 , $1,690.00 and some idiot comes in at $300.00 or some such. I remember when you just didn't see that. With all NAA (now TCIA) and ISA has done the industry was more professional in many ways 26 years ago than it is today.



Something happened today right along those lines. Guy calls for a removal bid on a big slash pine. The tree is healthy he is just tired of the mess and the roots on top of the ground. My quote was the fourth and he says the last he is getting and mine two of the other three were not that far apart. Most people don't reveal their other quotes but he seemed eager to so I looked at what he had. One was just a verbal he claimed he got for $1,500.00. Mine and another he got in writing were $1,550.00 and what appeared to be $1,270.00 (the quote was convoluted and the writing was terrible). Then, there was this cat calling himself Ruiz Trees coming along at $500.00. It was actually written out but the only thing I could read was the $500.00.


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## poorboypaul (Apr 24, 2013)

Almost became a fatality Sunday evening. My niece's husband is finally getting electric to his house. Penelec told him 3 trees were to be removed at the existing service at my father's house before they would begin. After hearing how he could drop a tree any direction he wanted it to go, blah, blah, he hooked a tow strap around the first tree. Using his car trailer with attached winch, we pulled the first tree over. Now mind you, I was helping him because he has helped me numerous times with auto related issues. I was NOT going to do any cutting or such, because this is beyond my skill level. It's his butt if he drops a tree over the electric line. Cuts his notch in the next tree BEFORE climbing up to attach the tow strap. 2nd tree strapped off, put some tension on it. I'm standing 90 degrees from where the tree is supposed to go, behind my father's house, when he starts to cut it down. The IDIOT proceeded to cut through the hinge! The tree drops straight down on his saw and binds it up. I then look up to see the tree falling straight at me! I ran like heck as the tree hit the ground behind me along with a nice blue arc from the electric line he tore off my dad's house. Amazingly, the weatherhead cut through the coating and hit the neutral wire. My father still had electric. The MORON calls me the next day and asked if I would cut the tree off the line for him! Told him he could go pound salt up you know where because I wasn't cutting a tree off a hot electric line. Didn't want to spend the money to have someone who knows what they're doing cut the trees down. Still 1 large oak left to go, and if he hits the main line behind the transformer, was told it will cost him $10,000.00 to fix it. More power to him. I won't be around for that fiasco.


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## hannontree1 (Apr 24, 2013)

i run into the same stuff here i would like to know if 500 dollar bid was insured i would say no i gave a bid the other day for a big hickory easy removal in front over house home owner wants all wood just chip brush grind stump nasty root mess maybe a total of 3 hours of work to do total job using crane and big stump grinder i told her 800 she told me she had a bid for 300 including stump i told her in a nice way good luck with that and she might want to ask to see there insurnce


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## hannontree1 (Apr 24, 2013)

trying to be cheap is ok on somethings i guss but its not allways worth it years ago we where doing storm clean up when the guy next door to where we were working came over to ask how much to take a broken lead off a slash pine i told him 100 dollars being nice about 20 ft up no big deal he told me i was crazy he would have his son do it we saw them come out with there ladder and saw we went in back yard of are job site next thing i hear is one of my guys screaming i ran up front leads down next door so is ladder and the son we did what we could to help it was not pretty cheap is not allways better


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## mckeetree (Apr 25, 2013)

hannontree1 said:


> i run into the same stuff here i would like to know if 500 dollar bid was insured i would say no



I would bet anything that character doesn't have any ins. of any kind. Ruiz trees is new to me. I had never heard of him before I gave that quote. More than likely the HO got him out of a little local advertiser that comes in the mail free to everybody whether you want it or not. Just about all of them of that caliber advertise in that deal and also do the door knocking thing.


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## treemandan (Apr 25, 2013)

This thread is sure going places, all over the place. And all that asked was what the percentage was. Well I looked it up on Google, it said 99.9999 %. Ya got to find that onehundredthousandths out there and you'll be on yer way.


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## mckeetree (Apr 25, 2013)

treemandan said:


> This thread is sure going places, all over the place. And all that asked was what the percentage was. Well I looked it up on Google, it said 99.9999 %. Ya got to find that onehundredthousandths out there and you'll be on yer way.



After today I'm starting to believe that.


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## ducaticorse (Apr 25, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> I read an article the other day about how the illegal invasion, the 1986 amnesty and now the pending amnesty of 15,000,000 illegal aliens has and is reducing what you can get for any green industry job. In the South we have been feeling that since the mid nineties. The 1986 amnesty opened the flood gates for millions of illegals to come here in the following years and you know this one will too...I figure you guys "up north" will feel it pretty soon.



Ha, please. Us guys up north have been feeling it for years! Ill snap some pictures of the illegal work pools out here in plain sight of immigration. It's like a one stop work force.


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## ducaticorse (Apr 25, 2013)

Del_ said:


> That will be changing in the future, you can bank on it.



I agree. I own my bobcat, chippers, bucket and trucks and personal vehicle outright. It allows me to come in lower than the bigger guys while maintaining the same margin of profit. I just have to make sure I leave a proper amount aside to put into the maintenance kitty. I would be crapping my pants on a regular basis if I had payments on all my stuff. Guessing it would be upwards of 7-8 grand a month with insurance.


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 12, 2013)

We bid on this job 3 weeks ago and got a call back saying someone else was doing it $350 cheaper we drove by and saw some hacks on a ladder 2 days later, so we drove by today and this is how far they got in 3 weeks.

View attachment 299823


I love the brush pile out by the road lol.


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## sgreanbeans (Jun 13, 2013)

hannontree1 said:


> trying to be cheap is ok on somethings i guss but its not allways worth it years ago we where doing storm clean up when the guy next door to where we were working came over to ask how much to take a broken lead off a slash pine i told him 100 dollars being nice about 20 ft up no big deal he told me i was crazy he would have his son do it we saw them come out with there ladder and saw we went in back yard of are job site next thing i hear is one of my guys screaming i ran up front leads down next door so is ladder and the son we did what we could to help it was not pretty cheap is not allways better



Yo, Bro, please use punctuation and spell check, your post's are hard to read.


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## sgreanbeans (Jun 13, 2013)

What percentage? That's a hard one. This is a never ending situation, you are always going to have those that only want cheap. Face it, most people would rather not spend money on trees, they, a lot of the time, have to. Dead tree, branch on roof, broken storm stuff, etc. Those who don't have a lot of money, need to stretch their dollar as far as possible. I'm putting a kid thru college, I do it too. The way I battle "barging hunters" is going after a better client base. I can go out and do a few small jobs, at hi-end home's, charge them a good, fair price and still make more money than the door knockers with 8 guys waiting to go. I have equipment, not a lot, but enough. I go after the ones who want to take care of their tree's, who want a pro that is clean and courteous, one who has a good track record and uses PPE. If you are good at what you do, and run a legit show, the client base grows and the phone starts ringing with clients that you have had for years, it maybe time for them to prune all the trees on their property or it may be a invitation to their kids graduation party. These peeps, that are hi-rollers, mingle often, and they love to talk about (brag) their big bad aas house and all the money they spend on it. They love even more to brag about the quality people that they use. I get invited to these events sometimes and go when ever I can. The conversations are always going in the direction of "I will only have so-in-so do my trees, painting, carpentry" They like to share good people and will often be your best advertisement. I have a guy who is a VP at Deere, who I swear drives around his hood and hands out my cards! He loves us and is always looking for a reason to have us out. Once you get a client base like this, you don't need to worry about the low ballers or bargain hunters. Don't get me wrong, if the work drys up, I will be right out there bidding any call that comes in, no matter the location. But so far, doing it the way JPS taught me has worked wonderfully. I dropped out of the phone book a while back and my client base changed drastically, my call volume dropped but my call quality increased ten fold. I hardly ever work in hoods like my own, if I do, most of the time its a rental property of my clients. This transfers directly to commercial, as a lot of your hi-end client's own or run a large business. They always call me for anything tree related to their commercial sites. Many times we will get calls, they leave the address and based on that alone, I don't bid. I know that sounds snotty but I know the hoods around here pretty well and I know which ones are not worth my time and the ones to stay out of period. Thugs and crackies. The hacks can have them. Now, with all that being said. I do find it hard to pass up on a guy who knows he needs to hire a pro, wants to hire a pro, but just simply does not have the money. When I come across those. I feel guilty and will try and work something out for them. And I NEVER leave a Marine hanging, no matter where he lives or how much money he has. If he is a Jarhead, got em covered. What percentage? I am sure everyone's demographic is different, so each answer will be different as well.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 13, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> There again, I think a lot of it has to do with where you are geographically. About half of them around here aren't scared of cheap cheap. And I think that's probably true of anywhere in the South or Southwest based on folks in the business I have conversed with over the last couple of years. And yes, people don't value quality of work or customer service as much as they used to, at least in my area.



I've seen 80's pricing, I lowered my rates twice and still getting underbid


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## mckeetree (Jun 13, 2013)

One thing is for sure...it has got to where the sorriest crap calls you will get come from the yellow pages.


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## Bandit Man (Jun 13, 2013)

*Good, fast and cheap*

I took a chipper in for engine service today, and my diesel mechanic had a new sign up. You may have seen it before, but I had a laugh and thought I'd share ,as I thought it applies to tree work also.

We do three types of jobs here...
GOOD, FAST, AND CHEAP
YOU MAY CHOOSE TWO!!

If it is Good and Cheap,
it will not be Fast.

If it is Good and Fast,
it will not be Cheap.

If it is Fast and Cheap,
it will not be Good.


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 14, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Ha. I've been hammering them with prices just high enough to stay in business.



Your doing 2950 a day and struggling ! Shame on you ........ For complaining even a bit ! Your making more then what some very large companies charge for a bucket/chipper and three guys , like almost double , so unless your only working 1/2 days a week ..... You should pipe down ...... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 14, 2013)

This thread should be renamed ....... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ! Whoa is me ..... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 14, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> This thread should be renamed ....... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ! Whoa is me ..... :hmm3grin2orange:



"Woe"


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 14, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> "Woe"



I was hoping to "stop" the crying hence , whoaaaaaaaaaaa.


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## mckeetree (Jun 14, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Your doing 2950 a day and struggling ! Shame on you ........ For complaining even a bit ! Your making more then what some very large companies charge for a bucket/chipper and three guys , like almost double , so unless your only working 1/2 days a week ..... You should pipe down ...... :hmm3grin2orange:



Well, yeah, you are right.


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## OHWC (Jun 16, 2013)

Its just the way people are today. Complain about work, prices and everything else they know nothing about. Once had a guy I was milling for tell me .30 a bdft was too high for mobile milling he said he had a guy charging .20 a bdft.

I told him if he expected me to fell his trees cut 2000 bdft. in a day and travel 100 miles and net less than $150 he was an idiot.

Of course most people think tree removal, logging and milling costs are not much.... LOL


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## B Harrison (Jun 16, 2013)

cedar said:


> Most of the time it is the large trees that go cheap. I recently bid on a large Siberian elm, over a fence, power line, and busy road. The "professionals" doing the work quoted $750 and they were not even the lowest bid. I know they will go out of business, but as it has been said before, there is always be someone to replace them.



I want to correct you, these people who bid jobs dirt cheap cant go out of business, because they have no business. To have a business you have trucks, trailers, tractors, various other high dollar equipment that costs money used or not to keep up. A shop extra property taxes if your lucky to keep it away from your house, a separate power bill for that shop, a gas bill that makes you feel sick when you pay it...........This is why business owners loose sleep and drunks just pass out. If you can work on the cheap just to make ends meet in between welfare checks then you don't have a business. 

Wow I just went on a rant, that felt good!
well its Sunday morning and the coffee is about gone that means its time to go clean equipment and pack the truck for Monday. <-----my help, the people who will make a mess of a removal, your house, or your yard, and the person who thinks that price is way too high doesn't have to work every day of the week just to get paid for 5 so why would they understand why it cost so much to have it done right.


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