# Pulling Directions on Fall



## TheTreeSpyder (May 16, 2004)

From MB's Party; i bounced a theory of RB aboput what was the best direction to pull against some SideLean to fall true to gunned face.

If you want to go straight and everything is balanced except 500# leaning left @ 30'; that is 15000# force pulling to the side on the hinge. To fall true, quite logically must be matched by 500# X 30' on R (or a R. rope pull of 250# X 60'; or R. rope pull of 300# X 50'=15000# R. etc.) to balance the pulls. Direction is very important, their can be no movement, not even force without direction (i think); it always must be considered. You must match the strength of the pull to balance forward and the direction of the pull too must be balanced/reciprocated.

If the clock of lean was layed on the ground for direction axis now; a pull to 10 o'clock would have to be matched by a pull to 2 o'clock of equal strength to fall balanced like the needle on a scale to 12o'clock. 

The only reason the tree moves is that it is out of balance as you have removed it's holding power against lean; lean wins, it will fall into a balanced rest again; like it was lazily seeking it. You can even plot things to give it that easiest path to follow and chase it into that opening. So, anyway, the tree will fall to the balance of pulls/pushes to sleep again.

To get it there, what direction do you pull with how much? And, if you have less than a matching pull, can you make that up in direction, so as to once again balance to target? What if i can only pull to 1 o'clock against a 10o'clock lean?

The same principals learned on this level, can be taken into the tree and turned sideways etc. IMLHO; but have the same functions.

In all cases, the specificness of direction is important i think; and not just that one, but it's counter direction on the same axis. The most leveraged direction of resistance on compression is straight under lean. So we take wedge out of face, like a chock taken from a tire, to allow the commencement of force, the rolling forward of the tree, on the radius of the hinge.

On the same axis to the reverse, is the most leveraged point of resistance of pull to work from, this is the pocket that the tapered hinge reaches for. Each of these generally give the equal and opposite reaction quite readily for there positions, and Nature seeking the easiest way, therefore using the most leveraged positions the most!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 27, 2005)

Ken, it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time. It's all in the saw. The best climbers are the ones who have mastered their chainsaws. A few that come to mind are RB tree, TreeCo, KFtree and I'm sure I left out at least a couple other renegade climbers.  
John


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 27, 2005)

Spyder thats some nice work. 

I have a pulpwood training film from the 30's or 40's, their treatment of lean was quite similar to your ideas on dealing with off center weight. they did not talk about side weight as the balsam fir they were harvesting was very symetrical. They did address how to fall a leaning tree. 
Acording to how i remember the movie presentation; if the tree is leaning to 10 o'clock and you would like for it to fall to 12 o'clock then you should make your face to about 2 o'clock, and push to 4 o'clock.
They made the undercut with a bow-saw, then cut the face out with a small very sharp ax, then made the backcut with the bow saw. never, was the idea of a tapered hinge mentioned. (i include that because i have been sceptical of the thoeretical need/ use of the tapered hinge. practically i use it, but i believe that doing so reqires more force ((in the form of wedges, push pole, or pull line)) to be used to overcome the asymetrical hinge. And perhaps for little gain, the idea that leaving (tension)holding wood on the high side of lean is more important than/helpful leaving holding wood on the compresion side doesn't jive. does wood have greater compression strength or tensile strength? I think in living trees about the same. I guess that changes when the wood starts bending and twisting to failure.)
Baraneks treatment of side leaners involves making adjustments to compensate for the distance off center of the tree's top. if the top is 10 feet off center you must gun 10' in the other direction to get the tree to fall true. I believe this is what they are doing by making the face to 2 o'clock in the training film. Remove that aspect from the equation and repalce lean with weight, you would then cut to 12 o'clock and push to 2 o'clock to compensate for weight at 10 o'clock. 
In the film they do everything by hand or horse and are very concerned with conservation of energy (old school), leading me to believe that there is less work/force required to actuate the fall using this method. 

exciting stuff 

What does RB someplace else think?


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## Ekka (Oct 28, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Ken, it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time. It's all in the saw. The best climbers are the ones who have mastered their chainsaws. A few that come to mind are RB tree, TreeCo, KFtree and I'm sure I left out at least a couple other renegade climbers.
> John



I suppose you think there's safety in numbers for hazardous practices hey Gypo?


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## Ekka (Oct 28, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> A side leaning tree when felled does not land where the gunned face is pointing. A felled tree lands where the gunned face is pointing PLUS or MINUS the angle of the side lean.



Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ... but I'm only a stupid qualified and trained arborist! Filter the information, pay for the education and learn from experience but dont believe BS.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 28, 2005)

I just reviewed that movie.

I'm not sure this re-post is going to up my credibility rating.  The movie is somawhat different than my description. Heres how the film differs and my theories on why i remembered otherwise.

First off; they do use a tapered hinge. I however am going to stand by my theory that a T.H. is not necsasary and inefficient if you could compesate for off center weight by pushing or pulling. In the film there is only one man doing the cutting and pushing, perhaps they recomend a T.H. because compensation doesn't come until the faller puts his saw down and walks around to push on the tree. although they don't say why you use a T.H. it appears to hold the tree from rocking back into the lean while the faller changes position.

This brings us to the second change of recollection; the desired direction off fall is to 11 o'clock, the face is to 10 o'clock (and a little deeper than a typical face), the lean is to 1:30, and the direction of push is towards 8 o'clock. although these directions are different from my memory, the idea of pushing to compensate for lean and not to the desired direction of fall is maintained. 
Perhaps my mind adapted, what i knew from the movie, to an example more similar to spyders. Memory and cognitive behaivior are fascinating subjects in and of themselves. I'm glad the changes in recollection did not significantly effect outcome. 

Oh, one more thing; they chopped out the entire face cut on the example tree. They only recomend using the bow saw for the undercut in large trees.

The movie is called "so you want to be a woodsman" and is available from www.oldfim.org


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 28, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> A side leaning tree when felled does not land where the gunned face is pointing. A felled tree lands where the gunned face is pointing PLUS or MINUS the angle of the side lean.





Ekka said:


> Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ... but I'm only a stupid qualified and trained arborist! Filter the information, pay for the education and learn from experience but dont believe BS.



Well how do you do it Ekka? is it more acurate to add or subtract the lean plus the sqaureroot of the lean angle minus the offset of the trees shadow?  please do elaborate, i find this stuff to be really helpful. I've done a fair ammount of falling, and i'm quite accurate and safe, but definately still learning.

Is this riff between loggers and arborists and euk men for real? if so it is the single most retarding force to the advancement of our industry and livelyhoods. I see the same sort of behaivior going on in murph's post about face cuts, cept going in the opposite direction. Loggers feeling somehow slighted/threatened because an arbo had something to say about falling. And they responded the same way as Ekka, with that kind of mock self depreciating sarcasm. "oh im just a poor dumb wood choppa, but whada i know." What is that? where does it come from? on Murphs post i stated that "its like wearing a sign that says scared." I stand by that, little jabs and quick posts, self depreciation, this all sounds like it comes from being affraid. Fearful of change or of being wrong or embarrased, I don't know. 
My 'wife to be' just returned from a seminar where they were discussing cognitive behaivior therapy. one of the key points was that many people would rather be "right" than happy. And that, much of what coucilors need to overcome with their clients is precisly that attitude.
Are you really irritated Ekka ru  ? or are you just playing, giving treeco and gypo some Hell ur  .


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## smokechase II (Oct 28, 2005)

I couldn't get www.oldfirm.org to come up. Says no says my computer, nothing like that out there. Waaaah.
If by tapered holding wood you mean a triangle shape to the holding wood when viewed from above, I'm all for it. My experience has been if the wood is green and strong, holding wood will compensate for an undesirable lean better than face direction and wedges, (which are great ideas also). However, I noticed a long time ago the local Lodgepole Pine when it was at the blue stain level (just the start of it’s about to rot), no longer had the strength to be utilized this way to control felling direction. So I have to qualify my above statement with a big caveat that your mileage may vary because of all the many variables that crop up in the world of the faller.


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## Ekka (Oct 28, 2005)

What parameters are set in the beginning?

If pull ropes can be used to set momentum why not have a true gunned scarf with a side rope attachment?

Have you not heard of the "tongue and groove" technique? This technique allows a central piece of guiding timber as well as the scarf to maintain direction.

Also, you can dual scarf, first stand the piece up straight then re-align for the fell.

I do not have to hide behind any veil, whether that be my occupation or my wifes.

And yes, why cant loggers and arbos meet in the middle????? We do, every day, just not here. Call it a stir factor, supremecy or cognitive dissidence ... either way, I am what I am.


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## techdave (Oct 28, 2005)

Howdy guys, as an almost nuetral 3rd party, I hate to see you arbos and loggers going at each other. There are good guys and bad guys in both jobs. Sometimes being an arbo may be like doing a loggers job up in a tree, and sometimes a logger may be felling to easy lays. 

But it would be a big mistake to think commercial logging is just felling sections and putting trees into vague lays anywhere on the ground, or to think logging is just simple falling of trees in the clear. 

Production logging requires carefully planning of the strip layout, and careful placement of each tree within the layout to facilitate the removal of the trees from the strip. 

Each tree must fall clear and not land on rocks or old stumps or anyother item which could break the tree, resulting in "mismanufactured lengths", which can greatly reduce the value of the timber. These are just a few of the considerations. Also the sheer volume of falling, limbing and bucking to be done in one day is pretty high, and can be as tiring as draggin brush all day. Crossed lays result in increased danger from funny binds and torques on logs and limbs.

Also modern logging situations often occur on steep or rocky slopes, far from the equipment back at the landing, may even involve the removal of hard to drop trees that were bypassed in previous harvests due to danger or difficulty in getting them down. 


Having said all that, I think the average arbo in a well-treed suburban area has to work around high cost houseing and utilites and improvements, so they have to obsess over differences as small as a few inches in rigging and lowering. So MAAYBE a guy could genralize that arbos are more concerned with accuracy.

Play nice, keep the saws in the wood and off of you, and save the beer (steel reserve)for after.


Ps we have deartth of loggers around here to do the post fire cleanup, and for some trees an arbo just will not suffice. period. When you need and experienced c+ faller thats what you need. Just as a non climber cant do most of the residential tree work around here. When you need ballsy little mutha to climb 150 foot Euc overhanging 300 foot canyon a big old treefaller just cant do it!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 28, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ...


 Hey Ekka, how could you put any tree down with any certainty when your saw is duller than a hoe?? 
Hahaha
John


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## Ekka (Oct 28, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Hey Ekka, how could you put any tree down with any certainty when your saw is duller than a hoe??
> Hahaha
> John



Hey Gypo, the hoes around this part of town are mighty sharp.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 28, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ... but I'm only a stupid qualified and trained arborist! Filter the information, pay for the education and learn from experience but dont believe BS.


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Oh, so a qualified and trained arborist must be like "Jesus", he can perform miricales. Nobody can put a tree on the mark 100% of the time. Every tree is different and every side learner is different. Height, weight, lean, rot, type of wood, etc. will change the situation. Ekka, what % you working on?...hahaha!


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 28, 2005)

Dear me Denise, Have you been taking extra brain pills lately? your posts seem to have less of the neanderthall about them these days.
Keep up the good work!


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## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 28, 2005)

No pills for me Hammer!.....many years experience felling trees though, and not everyone of them went where they were suppose to. Now Ekka, he's a trained arborist so he's quailified to BS!


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 28, 2005)

Thor's Hammer said:


> Dear me Denise, Have you been taking extra brain pills lately? your posts seem to have less of the neanderthall about them these days.
> Keep up the good work!



I too must must congratulate you Dennis. Have you been keeping away from them EXTREME chainsaw fumes ????..all that silly ''chainsaw world champion/world record'' this and that isn't at all good for the old grey matter you know...


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 28, 2005)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> No pills for me Hammer!.....many years experience felling trees though, and not everyone of them went where they were suppose to. Now Ekka, he's a trained arborist so he's quailified to BS!



My goodness, now I am getting worried. That post was positively humble!
Are you feeling well?
My sentiments exactly though, both felling trees and rigging limbs. They have occasionaly decided they did'nt want to go they way I was pointing them, and made a dash for freedom in a different direction. No matter how experienced you are, no matter how long you've been doing it, they still have the capacity to surprise us all..........


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 28, 2005)

Dan, do you find your head gets hot wearing a loggers arsehole as a hat?


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 28, 2005)

smokechase II said:


> I couldn't get www.oldfirm.org to come up. Says no says my computer, nothing like that out there. Waaaah.
> So I have to qualify my above statement with a big caveat that your mileage may vary because of all the many variables that crop up in the world of the faller.



I mispelled the link, try this www.oldfilm.org

If it still doesn't work heres the snail mail adress and phone number.

Northeast Historic Film
P.O. Box 900
Bucksport, ME 04416

(207) 469-0924

re trees; Milage may vary; aye, thats the truth. "Never trust a tree." Rory


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 28, 2005)

Thor's Hammer said:


> Dan, do you find your head gets hot wearing a loggers arsehole as a hat?



Ain't that the truth....West coast loggers my arse , West country yokals more like it..


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## JamesTX (Oct 28, 2005)

Do you all realize that you're responding to a post that's almost 1 1/2 years old?

I didn't realize the archives of AS were so exciting.....


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## fpyontek (Oct 28, 2005)

Maybe we should consult this fellow on "Pulling Directions on Fall"!
http://www.pbase.com/rbtree/image/5211063

I wonder if he factored a sudden gust of wind into the equation.
Before continuing with the lesson a short quiz.

The chain saw operator pictured above has:

A. More brass than an entire collegiate marching band.
B. A different insurance company each week.
C. An extra pair of briefs/boxers in the truck.
D. All the above.

 Fred


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 28, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> That is the best felling shot I've seen. I bet that fellow learned that at arborist school or maybe from Ekka's video.


 I bet it was Ekka himself with Thor pulling on it with a rope while Spydie drew a 10 page map on hingenomics! :blob1:
John


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## Crazy Canuck (Oct 29, 2005)

Thats the first funny thing you've ever said Gypo


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## rbtree (Oct 29, 2005)

Crazy Canuck said:


> Thats the first funny thing you've ever said Gypo


Weeeeeellll, mebbe not the foist..but it wuz purty funny...

Hey spydie, who or what is this rb or which you spake?....I doth have had no time to peruse thine eloquent tho wordy (well, duh) treatise...should my ears be a burnin'..or should I bow...or none of the above....?


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## rbtree (Oct 29, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> That is the best felling shot I've seen. I bet that fellow learned that at arborist school or maybe from Ekka's video.



That fellow is wileyP....and I reckon you're joking....

I'll repost the video for ya newbies........just give me time....


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## Crazy Canuck (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd like to see the video meng. BTW you should get yer arse up to the Castle this winter and THEN we'll shoot some video.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 29, 2005)

This ain't no palm tree, pig turd it, and it's worthless..."close enough is good enough"...Yeah Right!


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

So, you gonna hang around the stump of that one and cut out the hingewood as she goes over?


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## Buzzlightyear (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> So, you gonna hang around the stump of that one and cut out the hingewood as she goes over?


Ha ha ha perfect, brilliant Ekka


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> I do not have to hide behind any veil, whether that be my occupation or my wifes.
> 
> And yes, why cant loggers and arbos meet in the middle????? We do, every day, just not here. Call it a stir factor, supremecy or cognitive dissidence ... either way, I am what I am.



Duck, run alittle, 'uhhohh' DIVE... Crap Im hit. Ohh ????, theres mud on my face.

Dude if your looking for supremecy maybe you should try swimming in a smaller pond? Harhar


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Duck, run alittle, 'uhhohh' DIVE... Crap Im hit. Ohh ????, theres mud on my face.
> 
> Dude if your looking for supremecy maybe you should try swimming in a smaller pond? Harhar



This industry is the most dangerous ... period. It is also one of the most unregulated. There's no shortage of "experts" with umpteen years of experience. They actually think because they have been doing the wrong thing for so long it makes it right.

This has nothing to do with supremecy and I thought better of you than to illustrate you contempt of safety and procedures to support a Gypo Crew.

There's a fairly recent thread in the injuries section right now where a customer was killed by some tree guy felling a tree that went the wrong way.
Perhaps he cut thru his hingewood. Why was the customer within striking distance?

There are preferred methods and different ways. And this thread provides the opportunity to kill a few birds with one stone by discussing these matters and stirring up the Gypo Crew.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm not looking to get on either side of anything, not much of a joiner. 

Thanks for taking a minute to clear things up for me. Having come into this forum recently there is alot of history I'm not aware of. Therefor much of the banter doesn't make sence to me. I should have let your first post be, but i was still trying to come to grips with the mudslinging over on Murphy's "face cut" thread.

When a line is drawn on the ground, and arguments are settled by the volume of people (and their noise) on either side of that line the initial argument is often forgotten. 

I'm not convinced that is exactly what is happening here. But whatever the case we no longer seem to be discussing the merits of a tapered hinge relating to compensation of weight or lean. 

Thanks again. For taking the time to speak plainly and not in "old forumish".


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Hi Corey, most of the problems revolve around the majority of climbers thinking it is rocket science to fall a tree. And when I say fall a tree , I mean the "whole",  tree not just a 10 ft. stub after the crown and half the bodywood is removed. If the truth be known, the hack and stack crowd are terrified of falling a whole tree and are equaly terrified of their saws. And why wouldn't they be, they are duller than a hoe?
Only the most revered and accomplished climbers have incorporated the best of both worlds. I wonder if Ekka, Thor or MB would make a pimple on Beranek's a$$.
Hahaha :blob1:
John


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## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> So, you gonna hang around the stump of that one and cut out the hingewood as she goes over?



Hanging in there and cutting your hingewood has its place. This was not one of those times. Notice the hingewood was cut up tight, but left to help guide the tree. 
If you haven't hung in there, and cut off your hingewood to help guide a tree on occasion, you're not very experienced. For example, in thick wooded stands, just trying to get a tree to hit the ground without cutting the hingewood can cause more danger if the tree were to hang up. It then becomes much more dangerous trying to cut the "hang up". Cutting the hingewood will let the tree roll off and drop. But, we all know most accidents happen within 10' of the stump, so getting away from the stump soon as possible is usually the best policy!


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 29, 2005)

Is the painted line a foresters mark or a guide or what?


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 29, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Hi Corey, most of the problems revolve around the majority of climbers thinking it is rocket science to fall a tree. And when I say fall a tree , I mean the "whole",  tree not just a 10 ft. stub after the crown and half the bodywood is removed. If the truth be known, the hack and stack crowd are terrified of falling a whole tree and are equaly terrified of their saws. And why wouldn't they be, they are duller than a hoe?
> Only the most revered and accomplished climbers have incorporated the best of both worlds. I wonder if Ekka, Thor or MB would make a pimple on Beranek's a$$.
> Hahaha :blob1:
> John



I'm going to have to let that stew for awhile. in the mean time i like your new avatar. that looks like a ski hill behind the railing. Did you ride that chainsaw down the ski hill John?


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## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 29, 2005)

A foresters mark.


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## P_woozel (Oct 29, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> That is the best felling shot I've seen. I bet that fellow learned that at arborist school or maybe from Ekka's video.


You guys, wow. That tree was a peice of cake even though Rogers saw was a little dull (he still wont get a silvey and do chain right) the rails were loose but the tree came down as planned. I've only been cutting in the Western US for 20 years now, I'm sure the steep ground, weather, thousands of hours of falling and bucking watching every cut looking at a stump when things go awry, (they do, really Ekka I like to drink beer, anyone who says they hit the mark always. I gotta call on that one.) But to listen to you hens yammer back and forth Its just amazing, Keep screwing around with those pull lines without cutting experience and youre gonna break something. And Gyppo Stay in the river bottoms. We'll take the tower sides. :blob5:


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

I liked that photo a lot.

The tree was relatively straight, single leader, just line evrything up well and it's gotta hit the spot. It's a high risk manouver if something went wrong. Like playing golf, if you have to tee off over a water hazard and that's all you see then you better resight for the flag and forget the water.

And you're right, I dont always 100% hit the mark but I try to, and the incidents where I dont generally tend to be the more forgiving spots where accuracy can be comprimised for efficiency as there's room for error.

Only yesterday I used a tapered hinge, offset pull rope to fell into a tight spot. All went spot on.

Also I do fell quite a few large eucs wholus bolus, they have different challenges as the canopies are hard to read for weighting and many have dead wood in the canopy which falls out, cavities and termites.  

And Gypo, all I have seen you fell is piss easy pines that are symetrical and straight and in the middle of no mans land ... true heroic tree work!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> And Gypo, all I have seen you fell is piss easy pines that are symetrical and straight and in the middle of no mans land ... true heroic tree work!


 That sounds like a great idea! I"ll go to a residential area and see if I can buy up some dozey looking goontree just to show you how good I am at slashing up garbage wood! Your inexperience is really showing there Ekka.
Hahaha
And BTW, Pwoozel didn't fall that tree anymore than I flew to the freakin moon and back.
Even if he had the balls to do it, it would be pointless and foolhardy unless it was his own house and he was insured to the nuts! Plus, tree climbers don't fall trees, they chunk them down!
John


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

CoreyTMorine said:


> I'm going to have to let that stew for awhile. in the mean time i like your new avatar. that looks like a ski hill behind the railing. Did you ride that chainsaw down the ski hill John?


 Hi Corey, Im still seeing the emoticon man with the sign, but I tried changing it to an 088 with a backdrop of snow. It's flatter than p!ss on a plate there, so crosscountry skiing only.
John


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> And BTW, Pwoozel didn't fall that tree anymore than I flew to the freakin moon and back.
> Even if he had the balls to do it, it would be pointless and foolhardy unless it was his own house and he was insured to the nuts! Plus, tree climbers don't fall trees, they chunk them down!
> John



And you say my inexperience is showing! Obviously once out of the woods your good for nothing!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> And you say my inexperience is showing! Obviously once out of the woods your good for nothing!


 Well lets see you do it Mr.Fresh Out of Chainsaw School!
Hahaha


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## P_woozel (Oct 29, 2005)

Since you are so full of doubt ask your close bud rbtree if I popped that tree for him. It wasnt that tough I know a dozen guys that make those drops everyb day. :umpkin:


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## Trinity Honoria (Oct 29, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Well lets see you do it Mr.Fresh Out of Chainsaw School!
> Hahaha



John, i think you could be correct... per Ekka's own website, Eric's only certification on his website says he was just certified in July 2005... 

AND here's an exact quote from Ekka's website: 
"Tree Removal In Confined Spaces
When trees are too large to be felled from the ground they need to be removed in sections."

this seems to contradict what he said... 

now, since i've read everything in the archives about tree climbing, i'm putting my shingle out next week, after the GTG... i expect in the few hours i watch you fellas (and the charming Kate) use the chain saws, i will be an expert on chain saws as well...


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Not so fresh out. But I did do the course after many years of experience. Fortunately, from day one I associated and worked with qualified people ... some in forestry and some in arb but I didn't really get the opportunity to get real bad habits.

I do it, every day. Felling a tree or spar etc is the easier part. Cutting a tree down from aloft much harder. You get real good experience on cuts and techniques when rigging, slewing branches, lifting them and turning them to avoid things. Not only that but you have to be aware of how they land, tip first, butt first or flat. 

One tree may have 50 cuts or more to be made before felling the spar so one tree provides a lot more opportunity for experience ... and errors.

When I see a drop I go "yeah, an easy day", one cut and tree is down ... limbing etc on the ground has its hazards but we also have machinery.

Quick Gypo, PM your mates for some support ... you're scraping the bottom of the barrel already.


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Oh no, run for cover, Gypo's brought in the "Knit" wit for it's 2 bobs worth of support in something it has no idea about.


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## Trinity Honoria (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Oh no, run for cover, Gypo's brought in the "Knit" wit for it's 2 bobs worth of support in something it has no idea about.



Oh, Ekka, you hurt me fella!!! of course, i'm not offended being called a "knitter" since i made fair money professionally knitting for years as a teenager... 

oh, well, i discovered how you stay in such good shape-- don't you dance with the Thunder from Down Under-- aren't you the third one from the left sitting down... with his hand on his privates???


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Trinity, please stay on track here it's not HK.

In fact I'm surprised one of the biased moderators hasn't jumped in yet.

Here's the page from my website where Trinity decided to selectively taint my credibility, you'll notice it does say.

*Tree Felling*
Where adequate space is
available trees are directionally 
felled from the ground.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/TreeRemoval.html


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## HELSEL (Oct 29, 2005)

I have worked with a lot of fresh out of school arborist! I am here to tell you all. You will learn more From a logger. I worked with my father witch was A logger.


Helsel


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

I thought father witches were called warlocks!

Beside, how would you know what you could learn if you never have?


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## Trinity Honoria (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Trinity, please stay on track here it's not HK.
> 
> In fact I'm surprised one of the biased moderators hasn't jumped in yet.
> 
> ...



other things on your site, Ekka:

""Some methods are: 
1. A qualified climbing arborist will access the tree & fell the tree in sections.
2. A climbing aborist supported by a ground crew will use ropes & rigging to lower pieces. 
3. Cranes can be used to remove extremely heavy or structurally unsound trees. 
4. EWP's, Cherry Pickers can be used. ""

this is the precise order you listed them... so apparently you put more time into listing how to take down a tree in pieces then how you lay one down in one piece...

just observations from someone reading your own words...


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## HELSEL (Oct 29, 2005)

I am sure by reading your post that I dam sure cut more timber than you!!!!!

Rick


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Ken, it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time. It's all in the saw. The best climbers are the ones who have mastered their chainsaws. A few that come to mind are RB tree, TreeCo, KFtree and I'm sure I left out at least a couple other renegade climbers.
> John



What this whole argument is about is this statement above. Pay attention sight impared loggers, Gypo wrote *"it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time."*.

Now if you agree with the above, you are an idiot!

Even the Cahoon left hingewood on that earlier pic, what a stupid statement to make on a public forum. Idiot!

And then the only retaliation you have is mud slinging and BS; and like an earlier post you think there's safety in numbers? You think that because you have been taking high risks and inappropriate procedures for umpteen years it makes it right? 

Well, the above is a typical always, all, all ... red herring. Think about it.


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## a_lopa (Oct 29, 2005)

thats me in my stripping days in in front doing the fabio pose.


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Trinity Honoria said:


> other things on your site, Ekka:
> 
> ""Some methods are:
> 1. A qualified climbing arborist will access the tree & fell the tree in sections.
> ...



That's right, that's the follow on from Tree Removal In Confined Spaces.

Because most people understand the tree felling process and not many know of the wider variety of methods used in confined places. This opens up their mind to the access issues and what method or combinations of can be utilized to remove the tree. Obviously this has a considerable impact on the costs compared to scarfing up and felling a tree, one cut it's down!


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## Trinity Honoria (Oct 29, 2005)

a_lopa said:


> thats me in my stripping days in in front doing the fabio pose.



did i mention that you were looking particularly good???


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## Ekka (Oct 29, 2005)

Crikey Lopa

Tinity's got the hots for ya, get the prenup out mate!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Hey Ekka, the more you talk to greener you look. You better go for another one of those "small tree felling", competancy courses you bragged about on your site. Hahaha
What a cull!
John


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## HELSEL (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Crikey Lopa
> 
> Tinity's got the hots for ya, get the prenup out mate!




Hurry put the blow up kangaroo away!!!!!!!!!






Helsel


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## a_lopa (Oct 29, 2005)

she'd better! i live under a peice of corugated iron LMFAO im on my way trinity i need you to pay for the airfare and ill pay you back when i arrive


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Ekka said:


> What this whole argument is about is this statement above. Pay attention sight impared loggers, Gypo wrote *"it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time."*.
> 
> Now if you agree with the above, you are an idiot!
> 
> ...


 Hey Kanga, I think we almost got you ready to pop! If you listen real close creampuff, you'll hear holding wood cracking, but that's only if you have the balls to stay with the tree!
Hahaha
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment_13527.php
Hahaha


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## a_lopa (Oct 29, 2005)

stupid statement public forum LMAO!!!


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## Trinity Honoria (Oct 29, 2005)

a_lopa said:


> she'd better! i live under a peice of corugated iron LMFAO im on my way trinity i need you to pay for the airfare and ill pay you back when i arrive



thank you for being a gentleman about this... i feel elated that you are only asking for a loan of the funds for the airfare... and i dare not ask how you will pay me back...


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

I can see it all now, Kanga standing there with a 10 ft. stub wondering why it won't fall with 6" of holding wood.
Cut the hinge off you stupid diklik!!! That's what what the loggers do!
Hahaha
John


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## a_lopa (Oct 29, 2005)

Trinity Honoria said:


> thank you for being a gentleman about this... i feel elated that you are only asking for a loan of the funds for the airfare... and i dare not ask how you will pay me back...




i still need the cab fare to your house,ive transfered money between my accounts it just needs a few days to clear


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## HELSEL (Oct 29, 2005)

HELSEL said:


> Hurry put the blow up kangaroo away!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dont hurt the doll it has to be the one with the brains.He sure dont.



Helsel


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2005)

Heard the one about the drunk at a party? They sent him into a bedroom, where his prize was a blow up doll. He came out, all bewildered--said he was really going at it, when he bit her on the neck, but she farted and flew out the window.


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## Ekka (Oct 30, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> The best climbers are the ones who have mastered their chainsaws. A few that come to mind are RB tree, TreeCo, KFtree and I'm sure I left out at least a couple other renegade climbers.
> John



Hey genius, watch this 18 second video of an RB job recently.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/rbtree.mpg 

Also, good to see you lurking around TH ... here's a closer look of the log in question, just like RB's, *doesn't look like 6" of holding wood to me* ... but then again, you are vision impaired ... or is it the neurons that interpret the vision.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Keep trying greenhorn. You must be very proud of yourself with that notch. 
Good job Kanga! Lets see you make a cut with a chainsaw. That should be a real joke. How can you have 6" of holding wood on a 6" tree?
Hahaha
John


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> That sounds like a great idea! I"ll go to a residential area and see if I can buy up some dozey looking goontree just to show you how good I am at slashing up garbage wood! Your inexperience is really showing there Ekka.
> Hahaha
> And BTW, Pwoozel didn't fall that tree anymore than I flew to the freakin moon and back.
> Even if he had the balls to do it, it would be pointless and foolhardy unless it was his own house and he was insured to the nuts! Plus, tree climbers don't fall trees, they chunk them down!
> John



What's up with ya Johnny? Why make a fool of yourself?...Here's the whole story...and I'll post the videos soon....
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=5336&highlight=Falling+Big


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## Ekka (Oct 30, 2005)

Rb, I had a good look thru that old thread, nice.

Couldn't get any of the vid links to play, most dead now.

Johnny AKA Gypo, shot himself in the foot that much he's getting around in a wheel chair.


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## smokechase II (Oct 30, 2005)

One way to get your holding wood perfect is to make your face, then start your back cut by boring in and coming forward toward the face and stopping short with just the holding wood you prescribe. Then go out the back.
A few advantages to this are 1) This is a great technique to avoid a barber chair on a heavy leaner, 2) The tree will go over slightly faster as it isn't being slowly released but quickly, (this can also be a disadvantage if you're main concern is breakage), and 3) You're finishing your cut moving away from the tree. One of them little safety things that could work out eventually.
Disadvantages are a) Doesn't lend itself to wedging, so if you're not working with the lean - disregard and b) You need bar length to get through the bigger wood.
Look at the last big tree photo by Dennis Cahoon and note how the logger there didn't get the holding wood even. So what, at some point you gotta get out of Dodge and make it home at night.


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## Ekka (Oct 30, 2005)

Be careful Smoke guy, have you heard about the old dogs and new tricks story?

Well, some folk around these parts should!

Hey Gypo, check this out, you missing out mate!

http://palmtreeservices.com.au/hk2/hellskitchenII.htm

Hahahaha


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 30, 2005)

So how does everybody check their gun. I use the line on my saw alot, but i have better luck walking around and standing 10 or 15 feet in front of the face. i stand sideways to the lay, and hold my arms out straight, then look down my right arm to the face and down my left to the lay. That works pretty well, not as good as gunning sticks though, but their always over in the truck.

Kaka walks around to the front of the tree and puts his back against the bark, above the face, like he's gonna take a crap. then he bends over like alopa's avatar to make sure he is square to the face-cut then he stands up and looks down the lay. the whole procedure looks stupid as hell, but it works pretty good. Bob is a firewood guy, but he's done his share of land clearing.

Paul stands behind the face cut, reaches around the tree and sticks his index fingers in the corners of the face-cut. he never looks down the lay really, its like he has x-ray vission and can see right through the tree, hes pretty accurate. Paul is more a climber than a faller, and iv'e only seen him do that up in a tree, but sometimes not very far up  .

Most everone else i know walks down the lay 30 or 50 feet and looks back to the face to cut. That or they just site up the handle on the saw.

Oh yeah, that picture over there is dumb and some guy is dumb and AS is dumb and i'm real clever. Just a few words to try and stay on topic, what was the topic again?


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 30, 2005)

That was a great thread RB, thanks for linking it.

I've always been of the mindset that your better off sacrificing some wood for acuracy in tight quarters like that. And the idea of bringing in a ringer even if you could do the job yourself is brilliant. he didn't have to worry about money, or customer, or insurance, or cleanup, or neighbors, none of the little details that can be so distracting. The ability to focus completely on one aspect of a job certainly makes that aspect easier to get right.

I'm pretty conservative on my own jobs, i try just to take the "easy" ones, and if i do get a doosey i don't hesitate to parter up with someone. By the same token other companies will set me up doing very technical or low margin jobs and everything goes fine.

I think its just too much to have in one's head all at the same time. Much better to spread the responsibility out a little bit.

Almost forgot; Dumb dumby head thing over there. that wass a dumby thing to say, dumby.


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## chris_girard (Oct 30, 2005)

Just remember, that when using the "gunning" sights on your saw, if you aim exactly where you want the center of the tree to fall, you will be off to the left.

Remember that the line of sight IS NOT the center of the trunk, but a line to the right of the trunk when using the sights on your saw. This line may be a foot or more to the right of the center of the trunk.

Thus, you must compensate for this by actually aiming where you want the right side of the tree to land, not the center.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 30, 2005)

I ussually pull trees to the right anyway. A function of my technique, and Pinus strobus. The Pines will pull alot of root if you don't cut the hinge as it falls. Dad always called the root wood that pulled out a "scaf". He really based his felling around this phenominon, saying it was better to pull the wood than to cut it off. His trees most always drifted towards the "scaf", ussually right hand side.

Part of the issue is cutting 20"+ trees with a 20" or even 18" bar. I ussually plunge cut out the low side of the tree (the side under the lean) default the right side or 3 o'clock if the face is towards 12 o'clock. Anyway, i ussually plunge cut one side of the tree, and set up my hinge on that side, then come around and finesh the back cut from the other side. 
What this sets up is a preset hinge that i can't cut as the tree falls. And with white pine even a moderately narrow hinge (say 2" on a 20" - 28" dbh tree) will cause a scaf to pull out. Rather than fight this effect with a longer bar or "nipping the side", i find it easier to accept it and compensate accordingly.

I'm thinking that the "scaf" effect is more pronounced in the fall, sept, oct, and novemeber. The wood seems to have less sap and so rather than bend or break as in the spring and early summer it will rip down the grain, pulling a root section up with it.

Towards the end of august i was topping and dropping 8, 10, and 12 footers. man that wood was strong, i had a couple of 8's fall 35 or 40 degrees and stop short. it was a very thin hinge that held the log from falling over. And with the tops and longer logs if i didn't cut the hinge right off it would pull hard to the strong side of the hinge or any hinge wood that was left. 
That was up in New Hampshire somewhere, Newboston, or somewhere the other side of chappel tractor, not sure without looking at a map. Wherever i'm not sure if the woods toughness was due to the time of year or the dry summer, or if it was just a local effect specific to those trees. What do you think?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 30, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> I wonder if Ekka, Thor or MB would make a pimple on Beranek's a$$.
> Hahaha :blob1:
> John



i think that Beranek got the t-shirt, poster, even wrote the book, so i doubt if any of us could come close; are you implying that you could/do?

Daily, in rigging cuts, i do not cut thru the hingewood, until the spar is brought around under the rigging's redirect. i use the hinge as a second support to the rig(as like it was a second rope tied on either side of the Facecut), that is then disposable when the spar is brought around. Then, i cut thru it; and allow the line to carry the load. As long as the hinge holds on, you have some control over direction and speed; even in felling. After tearoff, the tree is thrown/ a free agent; and any control is just residual from when the mighty spar was still as one with the hinge. i make wide open faces, as the angle of openness dictates the outer constraint on how long the hinge holds on. i can always slice it off earlier and change my mind; but never add to it, once the cuts are maid. So, for full capacity of choices, i set wide to start generally. This control can give more buffering to the speed of fall, to impact lawn, underground pipes, and the sea of underground tree associates less.

RB; you've shown great work , humbly all ways and always; also handled yo'self in exemplary fashion in these forums for about a decade now. i don't think i or anyone else has had trouble with all that!

i have nothing against loggers that don't strip out Nature/ de-Nature. In years past here at AS; i've played on the parody of lil'climber vs. big logger as long as it was in fun/positive energy. Then, in building and cross compairing my theories; i always went to the loggers in Chainsaw for the broader spectrum of commonalities, that should rule both worlds of hinging science. When it got nasty; that negativity was the dust i shook from my sandals as i moved on.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 30, 2005)

The tapered hinge works. From the forward force of the tree pulling the same; all hinges will fold forward at the same strength.......on that axis. The tapered hinge works on sideleans better than a standard/generic/strip hinge because the tapered reapportions the alloted hinge strength from the forward pull, to a pattern more leveraged against the sidelean pull axis. It does this by reapportioning the fibre pattern to:
A) Providing more fibers in the tension/support/controlling positions, then increasing their powers by-
B) Place fibers in a farther away/ more leveraged by distance of these positions 
C) Also, places these greater numbers of tension/support fibers, that have greater leveraged length from the pivot of compressed fiber area, into also a much better leveraged angle.

So, i calculate the support as the length of tension fibers to pivot X the angle of those fibers to pivot/CG line X and the amount of fiber pull in that position, and try to maximize each multiplier. Just as the tree load is calculated as : Length from CG to pivot of compressed fiber X the angle of that weight to the pivot X the amount of that weight. The hinge leverage as support, vs. the tree leverage as load. As long as support= load; the equal and opposites are satiated and in balance, motion only when the load exceeds the support, and the load must seek out it's equal and opposite force of support, so wanders until it can rest against something again. Line pull/ wedge push is fine; but in good wood should be in the direction of the fall, to take advantage of these multipliers. Whereby, the fiber count is set by the forward pressure, so we increase that, then have more fibers, in more leverage-able positions. In wood of less elasticity and constitution, i might angle the direction of push/pull to fight the sidelean more directly myself, but this does unload the hinge of these forces i replace, and thereby the hinges multiplying capabilities.

i learned this from a 4th generation logger's book as listed in Dent on Hinging . So, once again, don't have anything agianst loggers.... Wi as a climber, have taken Dent's theories and turned them sideways; after noticing that the strategies where the same, just varied by direction of the lean force; or other similar pressures as in his bucking scenarios. Once again, going to Gypo crew numbers of times over years to cross compare notes, and distill out the commonalities that ruled in both fields.

Climbers do more felling, than loggers do climbing, and there are lessons at each station; to give broader spectrum to the other. But, a climber, just about always has to stay in the bullpen with the moving beast of a spar, there is no where to go. They are stuck with their decisions. Sometimes catching said load right next to them on a single, stretched thin line, supported by the very architecture they themselves hang from. These lessons are perhaps more intense. These decisions perhaps take an extra second guessing and look to science; as this man's life is literally, more on the line; with nowhere to run if it goes wrong.

So, the math/science is not just about a puzzle of where it goes; but of safety of knowing where it won't go; as well as giving the hinge/face machine more correct mechanics for a larger SWL of the hinge as a controlling device of all this immense leveraged force. 

i think the next frontier is to investigate the topic that Dent opens in his felling bible, of closing 1 the lean side of face early. This 'swing dutchy' especially helpful in climbing, where we don't necessarily see the immense weight of a whole tree (though, some cuts come close) ; but in horizontal spars, swept to the side and not down, see higher leveraged angles, and try to move the spar on the hinge a wider radius too. Taking down as the sidelean to across movement, the fat part of tapered on top pulls up, as the close kerf at the base of the hinge pushes up in aid. i think that closing 1 side of face early lends more of a powerful tourqued, rather than linear force input to the scenario of control.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 30, 2005)

???? spider, i don't know if i spend more time trying to inturpret your wordy posts, or that cryptic one word "test". what do you mean "test"?

Haaa! got it. BTW I like your posts, wordy or otherwise. They are thourough and very informative. I'm beginning to focus and wheels are turning...

Your time is much appreciated, thanks.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Ken, I knew we'd finally pull you out of the woodwork!
I was trying to think how you climber types come up with all these trees to practice on. Like it's not as though somebody's front lawn is like a forest where you can just merrily fall trees till your hearts content.
Hey Ekka, gotta love that cute lil diploma you got on your website.
Hahaha
John


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2005)

Dat's a little better, gyro..better be nice or I'll have ta come out to the not so great white north and biotch slap ya. :umpkin:


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2005)

CoreyTMorine said:


> I ussually pull trees to the right anyway. A function of my technique, and Pinus strobus. The Pines will pull alot of root if you don't cut the hinge as it falls. Dad always called the root wood that pulled out a "scaf". He really based his felling around this phenominon, saying it was better to pull the wood than to cut it off. His trees most always drifted towards the "scaf", ussually right hand side.
> 
> RB:I can't say it is better, unless you want fiber pull to aid in swinging into the lay....and only on one side. If not, then cut in ears (relief cuts, splint cuts, whatever ya wanna call 'em)
> 
> ...



Doodahh


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Ok Roger, I'll be good, but come on out anyway while we still got some trees left. This is the only Peace Burger I have left.
John


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2005)

Yummy....veggie? no moose scat I hope....


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 30, 2005)

All this comes down to Jelousy on Gyppoe's part. This is because us climbers can fell trees to within 80% (lets be generous) of his ability. but no matter how much he waffles on about his felling exspurtese, He could not even come within 10% of a climbers ability to strip and dismantle big trees in confined situations. 
Now John, you may disagree with this fact, and stomp and tantrum about it, but thats the facts.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 30, 2005)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> "Test" was to see if i could still post; cuz that crashed 3x, so i had to brake it into 2 posts... As far as my wierdy posts; been told before; but there is so much to compress the proper imagery into as few words as i do; per it's relevance.



Its really great work you do.

And as for veggie burgers made from moose scat, i like moose scat if you get it in the spring when the maple buds are sweet. goes real well with fiddle heads... MMMM fidle heads  

Back to the whole "scaf" technique, and how it relates to my very first post on this thread, which stated "i often use a tappered hinge in practice. but, theoretically it may be not the best, as i worry about such a hinge when wind throw or other forces are taken into account. 

Looking back on this whole post, and Mike Maas's pic on that earlier 2002 post, and considering the "scaf" idea. I think dad was using the "scaf" for exactly the reasons that have been demonstrated here for use of a tapered hinge. And the 
"scaf" has the advantage of leaving an even hinge that is more resistant to wind throw and using leverage that is further from side pull (the root that pulls out is often farther out from the face cut than the hinge.

"scaf" technique has the disadvantage of being less accurate.

Nothing world shaking, just another club in the bag.


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## smokechase II (Oct 30, 2005)

Corey & Chris:
You can't say that your gun will be either just to the right or left.
Granted, the line on the powerhead will point off to the side of where the face/tree is actually pointing. BUT, is your powerhead on the right or left side of the tree? {Any decent saw has a gunning line on both sides of the head.}
If your face is being made from the left side, your powerhead will point slightly to the left of the intended direction of fall. Right side - to the right. This gets to be a minimal concern the farther away from the stump you get. This angle of the dangle over 100 feet out is unlikely to matter most of the time.
To be a competent faller you must be able to drop a tree making all of your cuts from either side. This to avoid danger on the off-side or obstacles. 
So bend down enough to look horizontally out the sight line that is on the saw, do not use the handlebars. Looking straight from above at this line and glancing down in the general direction of fall is a nice way to be 5 degrees off and get hung up, (as opposed to being well hung).
If you have a double bit axe, or certain falling axes, you can place the head against the interior of your completed face cut and the handle will point your faces' direction. Caveat, not accurate with every falling axe/handle. Need to compare your field axe with a carpenters square and your faces depth could effect axe position also. However, if your an arborist that most of the time operates near where you can take your service vehicle, why not take a 3 foot carpenters square for a couple special trees a year?
Also beware of the learning sawyer who with his/her saw still (no pun) running will look down the sights as the saw as just vibrated and moved to where the gunning sights are not pointing accurately. Time to vacate that area and go get a camera.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

I could be wrong, and please feel free to b!tch slap me if I am. lol
But it seems the majority of climbers are obsessed about the mechanics of the notch and hinge as apposed to the tool which does the cutting which is a "chainsaw."
It's like a carpenter agonizing over a dovetail joint and not concentrating on the tool that cuts it.
At the risk of getting my head chopped off I will say that a sharp chainsaw is the most important thing in the equation of hingenomics and not volumes and volumes of theory. What good is theory if your saw cuts are crooked and is underpowered?
A fast sharp saw is your best friend and I bet more accidents are attributed to dull saws than we realize.
Case in point:
The first picture was cut with a dull saw, hence the jagged cuts, while the following pic was done with a sharp saw.
My point is, if the saw cuts crooked and can't make the cuts fast enough the operator is jeopardizing his life and efficiency.
Only because I care.
John


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## Ekka (Oct 30, 2005)

Well it's good to see you do care John and blunt saws are a PITA.

What sort of timber is that bottom one?


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 30, 2005)

I too have a warm feeling in heart, safe in the knowledge that John cares. 
Thats why I'm glad my saws are sharp enough to shave with.
Now if I'm not mistaken, the top photo is Chinese Elm, a notoriously stringy timber, whilst the bottom pic looks like maple. Maple is harder and shorter grained than Elm, and will always look smother cut with a chainsaw, be it sharp or blunt.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Eric, that's a Rock Maple or a Canadian Sugar Maple. It's the hottest thing going next to Cherry.
I looked at 40 huge ones today and I hope I can buy them at 500$ each.
Here's an example and I was thinking of what a climber would do.
Here's two nice Maples about 28" DBH, however we have a shattered tree leaning into the one.
My guess is to fall the tree in the bottom left and let the leaner follow it down while letting the Maple in the bottom right run defence.
John


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## Ekka (Oct 30, 2005)

Good observation Thor, you know those Chinese Elms. I did that job with Awsomeclimber and he soon learnt that the bark could almost become a lowering rope if not cut.

The saw was dull but not worth sharpening yet as we had to cut the base plus the base of a dirty ficus which has heaps of dirt. It ended up we pretty much blunted 3 chains on the lower portion, plus we had 3 cotton palm stumps with raised root balls to cut .... so I made the productivity and business decision to keep going with that saw till it was really stuffed.

Derek filed up a few that day ... I think one got so stuffed up we binned it. We were swapping the 44 for the 46 and he was filing chains.  

Urban environments seem to attract a lot of crap around base cuts of stumps!

Some day John may like to visit and see what goes on in these reverse climate areas with all the saw duling species we have. Thor, do you remeber the Mugga Ironbark, that thick hard crusty bark plate can be 2" thick in place, takes the edge right off in no time. A lot of times to keep going I use a short bar on a 66 to pull me through ... and I take an ammo box of spare chains.

My record was 12 chains dulled on the base of a large Moreton Bay fig.


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## Ekka (Oct 30, 2005)

So John

I have marked the picture, you want the 2 yellow ticks and the red cross guy is dead leaning on a "keeper". Is that right?

Just a funny angle pic.


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 30, 2005)

John, you make the dangerous assumption that just cause someone's a climber, they know nothing about timber. We just did a thinning job and took out 300 tonnes of curly sycamore. At the price that stuff goes for, the owner would be VERY upset if you break or shake one of his butts. 
Are you telling me what to do in the pic? sure, I'd probably let the leaner follow the other tree down, and use the tree on the right as a safety zone.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

That's correct Eric. Generally a leaner like that is very intertwined with the host tree due to wind and time. Thus the keeper will most likely break off the lener at it's weakest point. If not it will snap off due to how far it must fall.
Regardless, It's a cut and run affair, but I'll be hidding somewhere behind the tree on the right when it all comes down.
It's nothing new though, just another day in the life of a woodrat. I actually flipped the pic 90 degrees on it would fit better here.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Thor, I think alot of us are underestimating each other in what it takes to do our jobs.
The girls say it's a guy thing, but i guess things would get pretty sappy if we were always getting along I guess. 
John


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 30, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Thor, I think alot of us are underestimating each other in what it takes to do our jobs.
> The girls say it's a guy thing, but i guess things would get pretty sappy if we were always getting along I guess.
> John



Yeah, i worry about that myself sometimes. The best part about the tree industry is the people. Big personalities and characters pretty much across the board, part of what keeps it interesting. But telling stories about how two guys had an argument on an internet forum doesn't really hold an audience well. Maybe if Gypo got on a plane to australia to go punch Ekka in the mouth only to find that ekka was wandering around the canadian wilderness punching out random loggers in hopes of finding gypo. I guess that would get a me a free beer :].

Are all those trees in ontario gypo? the way all you _frenchmen_ buy up logs down here i figured all the timber up there was long gone.

And i think your right about sharp well running saws. No matter how much i try and compensate for dull cutters, things just don't seem to work right. On the other side, if my saw is running smooth everything else falls into place, no enginearing required. If i post pic's of all my saws will you sharpen them for me?  

I'm looking at those hard maples again, their real purty. Is that a managed lot, or just some guys back 40?


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Hi Corey, that's not only funny but factual in a sort of way. This artist punched me in the side of the head after I told him he wouldn't say sh!t if he had a mouthful when he called me a lier repeatedly when I said I rode the rods, (hopped freight trains).
Anyway, this guy wrote a good recording of a popular Australian song. There's more to the story, but I'll tell the rest of the story later. I'm just fetching the song, so I'll be right back with it as a link.
So anyway, even though I can feel everyones love, please don't be hating the singer who socked me in the head! 
John


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Here's the cool tune. 
John


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## fpyontek (Oct 30, 2005)

Reading this thread is like listening to a truck driver, a SUV driver and a sports car driver each argue why his vehicle is better than the other two. It makes for lively debate, but it is useless as nothing can or will be settled. 
For arborists, if the tree can be dropped safely we will drop them. We can't just drop trees for many reasons, some examples are:
If we break limbs in surrounding trees its not just a matter of removing the broken limbs, we've damaged the customer's trees.
Limited space with which to work in,necessitating that The tree must come down in sections.
The tree is surrounded by immovable structures, driveways, patio's, decks and even the building which was built around it. ( A restaurant in Morristown, NJ).
Probably the most compelling reason is that no matter how good you are or how good you think you are, the law of averages will catch up with you. Eventually some unforeseen factor will cause your drop to miss the mark; a sudden gust of wind or decay, for example. For the sake of your reputation and your insurance you can't take that chance. 

Some people are touting that falling a tree can be explained using elementary physics. It can't and is misleading to the inexperienced. Simple mechanics deals with idealized situations and rigid bodies where the center of gravity can be easily determined.
Trees are not rigid bodies. They exist in a dynamic state where factors such as the wind is continually changing the vectors of force applied. Structural failure of the tree is always a possibility. Unknown amounts of force are applied through the ropes used. Furthermore the dynamic properties of these ropes are not fully understood by many of those who use them.

This business is just too dangerous to be explained in simplistic terms and there is no substitute for experience. Read through "Arboricultural Injuries and Fatalities" there's a lot to be learned from other people's mistakes.

Fred.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 30, 2005)

In some ways i can see your point about the physics, but in general feel that trees are my greatest lessons in these things. i think the physics should back up the experience, and show the maximizing tweaks available easily amongst the choices to the technician. Every lil'bit i can squeeze out here helps etc.; so i polish system to that point. Then limit the string of stacked multipliers against me; while maximizing the multipliers on my side.

Everything is not to a singular force, but a dynamic relationship of forces to each other, wind and the shape of the tree's ability to be affected by such wind et al. 

Furthermore i still check every hinge of rigging, bucking or felling; & feedback the info of the Hinge Forensics to self, and decypher where i thought CG was, and where it actually was, cut alignment, power of adjsutmeant taken etc.


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## rbtree (Oct 31, 2005)

Hey Eric, here's another try at the videos of the big fir.


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## Ekka (Oct 31, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> That's correct Eric. Generally a leaner like that is very intertwined with the host tree due to wind and time. Thus the keeper will most likely break off the lener at it's weakest point. If not it will snap off due to how far it must fall.
> Regardless, It's a cut and run affair, but I'll be hidding somewhere behind the tree on the right when it all comes down.
> It's nothing new though, just another day in the life of a woodrat. I actually flipped the pic 90 degrees on it would fit better here.
> John



That is one possibility but here's another. What about cutting the leaner first, try to fell it out, see if it goes .... it might roll out. Cut a real narrow notch so that if it doesn't go ... it will go once the keeper is felled and break off it's hinge first. Make it a really thin hinge too.

Then fell the keeper. That way the butt (stump end) of the leaning split guy can be dragged along for the fall and break less branches off the keeper and possibly reduce the probability of "throw back" (thats debri forward of the cut getting propelled back at you due to the pulling effect of the leaner still being anchored). Of course you'll have to exit to the right and behind the second keeper.

I'd suggest you have an observer with you with an adequate warning system in place to alert you of any hazard whilst cutting the notch and back cut of your prize.

In either case of felling, will you be cutting thru the hingewood of your keeper on this one?


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## Thor's Hammer (Oct 31, 2005)

John, would you have the skidder with you? Usually, I would put a cable on the hanger, cut it off its stump, then winch it out butt first. IF you had the skidder with you, that is.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 31, 2005)

That leaner looks like trouble to me. I'de be more worried about cutting it out of the Rock Maple, than running away after initiating the big sugar to fall. Maybe it would roll out, probably not, and if it didn't it might do any number of wacky things; it could roll a little left and push backwards, causing that compression fracture to hinge outward and then down, somewhere??? fast. or maybe the comp fracture twists inward as the top slides down, the comp fracture might end up by the base of the sugar, with the dead top now vertical and unattatched, it would probably fall back towards its own stump in an attempp to swat the faller. and if the fracture isn't weak enough to bend it might just hang there, problem with that is when you cut the money maple the leaner may become dislodged and fall faster than you can run, or it might fall hard enough to throw a dead branch which will given murphy's laws smack the faller right in the head, either one. Where as if you havn't cut its base off, and it becomes dislodged, it will probably fall somewhat slower.

By leaving it up there you minimize the bad options (things will happen with more energy and be erratic) and maximise the better options (the event will have less energy and there will be fewer possible end results). Also its quicker to leave it up there, and less time spent in the danger zone ussually equates to less exposure. 

Its interesting that your first reaction, to fall the money tree with the leaner intact, was the most efficient and safest. Pretty good illustration of why second guessing ourselves is dangerous.

"Hesitate and Die." Mike Molineux (Mike and i went through "a" school in great lakes together, he lives up by John somewhere.)

Anyway, Gypo living through crap like that on a regular basis, has probably developed a pretty strong survival instinct. Maybe there is something here worth paying attention to. Sometimes it seems that the hard core "safety via procedure and PPE" oriented folks often get flustered when anyone talks about "instinct" being a factor. But the little voices in my head have kept me out of a fair ammount of trouble, and gaurdian angels have also helped. Maybe because i follow a "procedure", but sometimes i wonder if it may be something else. As for PPE, my hard hat mostly prevents the minor dents and dings, it may have saved my life once, i guess thats enough reson to where one, chaps to. 

John, how come you keep living through situations like that one?


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 31, 2005)

Because the two Maples are very valuable, 1000- 3000$ each, I can take my time to savour and relish the fun of falling trees of this size and value.
Trying to sever the leaner at the stump could complicate the situation if the leaner chooses to fall in several pieces and therefore several directions.
One falling rules states, "trees that are tied together should fall together", however in this case simply cutting the host tree and running will be my choice.
Using a skidder to pull the leaner down could work but it's 24" at the stump and could agrivate an otherwise routine situation.
I won't have time to hang around and cut off all the holdingwood once it is conmitted to it's fall, so I will plunge the heart out instead and make sure I have the backcut at least 3-4" above the undercut.
If I find a situation particularly unnerving, I will park the skidder close to me while making the cuts to break the fall of any debris.
Corey, even though there is danger, it's a whole lot of fun and I never get tired of it.
You are sure right about the instinct part. I have to go back to cruise those trees again to present a quote, so I will take better pictures of the trees.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 2, 2005)

Here's a better picture of the Maple with the broken crown. Although it looks like a good tree it is nothing but firewood. I suspect it got hit by lightning so it should be well seasoned.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 2, 2005)

Here's a really nice Maple, it's about 36" DBH. These are the tallest Maples I have seen in awhile. They are at least 110' with 40' of merchantable length. The average Maple is about 90' in the forest.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 2, 2005)

Here's the best tree in the whole bush. But can't truly tell till it's down on the ground and cut to length.
John


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## Ekka (Nov 3, 2005)

So Gypo, do you mill them up for timber do you?


That crappy tree, I'd go with the fell on the keeper and make a dash for cover, then if that buggers left standing deal with it if not ... no worries.

So, let us know what the go is with the timber, around this place most is junk.


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## a_lopa (Nov 3, 2005)

i think ekkas advice on having a spotter is spot on to coach you thru the felling

haha


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 3, 2005)

Well I'm glad you guys agreed with me on the felling procedure.
Spydie would still be drawing his twelve page diagram. lol
Ekka, I don't get involved with the lumber end of things save for the odd log I have the mill saw into boards so I can get more and more bookshelves made to house my book collections. Like this Butternut cabinette.
John


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## pantheraba (Nov 3, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> so I can get more and more bookshelves made to house my book collections. Like this Butternut cabinette.



You DO know how to set up a picture...


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