# Safely cutting leaners



## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

Hello everyone, I am a new member and new to woodcutting. I live on an island in the gulf of Alaska where firewood is a hot commodity due to land use restrictions. We are only allowed to cut firewood from state owned land, or private land of course. Down trees only, no live ones. The state owned land is mostly mountains with no trees. This has lead to many people cutting driftwood off the beaches. After destroying several chains, I decided not to do that anymore. Anyways, I found several large spruce trees that have toppled in a wind storm and are leaning on other trees. I was able to get several of the smaller ones bucked up and out but am down to a few monsters. What is the safest way to get these down? I have been under cutting them with the top of my bar and running like mad when they let loose. Almost always, the tree just kicks out the part I cut and still stays snagged up. I can't afford a chain winch to pull them down, and can't cut the live trees they are snagged on. Any ideas appreciated. Sorry for the long post!


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## 1savagehunter (Jan 6, 2009)

Welcome
You have your hands full ... do you have clear space to land the tree without going into other trees?


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

Yes, there are about 4 trees left to cut. All of them are snagged at the top on other trees. Two of them I started to cut up already but continue to stay snagged, the other two have root balls attached uncut. The big ones are 36-40" diameter. There are nice open spots right next to the trees they are leaning on, I wish they would have fallen there! This tree cutting is dangerous! I have orders for 3 more cords but am out of wood to sell so I need to figure this out without killing myself!


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## Brian VT (Jan 6, 2009)

That sounds like a job for a crazy man or a big machine.
Pulling them down with a machine is the correct/safe way.
That said, maybe you can keep cutting at them as you have been and eventually they will be vertical enough that you may be able get them out of the live trees. 
A bore cut that leaves a backstrap may make this type of cutting a (little) bit safer ?
Videos: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgKTXNZMao&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWXWh6wDOXY


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

Beautiful! That's exactly the scenario I have but on a much larger scale. The first video is spot on. I will have to practice some bore cuts- with proper safety equipment of course. What do you do when the tree stays hung up like in the first video and just keeps getting more vertical? No motorized vehicles allowed in this area so that is not an option. Thanks!


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

The real scary thing is these trees are 1/4 mile from the road and all wood has to be removed by manpower. The trouble people go to around here for firewood would make a normal person cringe. I have done about 8 cords from this location, all transported by manpower. What I would give for a team of oxen! Green wood sells for $250 a cord so it is worth it for me!


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## Brian VT (Jan 6, 2009)

kodiakyardboy said:


> What do you do when the tree stays hung up like in the first video and just keeps getting more vertical?



Every situation is different and these that you have are very dangerous.
As the tree gets more vertical there will be less lean pressure to deal with and you may be able to direct it down with cables and winches with you in a safe position.
I sure wouldn't be in there messing with these trees for any amount of money. Too scary for me. 
Maybe you could hire a pro. just to get them on the ground for you ?


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

I think I will cut as much as I safely can and wait for the next windstorm or earthquake to drop the rest.


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## Brian VT (Jan 6, 2009)

Yah, I'd go find some other wood.
I also forgot to mention that those root balls make those 2 even scarier because that part of the tree might want to stand back up when you cut it.
You might be undercutting thinking the trunk is going to drop when it really wants to come up and at you.


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## John Ellison (Jan 6, 2009)

There you go. This time of the year on Kodiak It will probably just be a couple of days or less.


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## Old Sawman (Jan 6, 2009)

*Re: Safely cutting leaners.*

Hello, I'm brand new here, I signed up to ask questions but I thought I'd throw this in.
When I get a widow maker here it's usually over a line fence in steep woods hillsides where I can't get a line to it. I back/bottom cut as high as I can reach and as deep as I dare, then back off and cut it off with the .243 with a combination of softpoints and full metal jackets.

I have not done one as large as yours, but I have done 16/18" oak with 10 to 30 shots depending on the backcut you can get. Cheap,quick, and safe.

Oldsawman


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

Ya, we had 90 mph gusts last week that really dropped some trees! The tree service guys made a killing, and they always salvage the firewood so they get paid twice!


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## Brian VT (Jan 6, 2009)

Old Sawman said:


> Cheap,quick, and safe.


...and fun !


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## Mike PA (Jan 6, 2009)

Without a winch or a horse, you are in a tough spot. If you insist on doing it without mechanical help, at least get a rope over the tree as high as possible. Use a snatch block to apply tension to the opposite side you are cutting. As the trees falls, you may be able to apply enough tension to roll it out of the tree it is snagged it. Otherwise, at least there is a little more security that it won't fall on you. Keep working the tree down. As it becomes more vertical, be certain to keep tension on it, and maybe you can pull it over at some point.

Best advice may be to wait for it to fall further on its own.


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## clearance (Jan 6, 2009)

In a word, fencepost. 
Leave it alone, I have cut down many trees, worse than the one in the first video, which had some grave errors. Especially where the guy straddles the tree that is cut up (4:46 in the clip). He does not stay out of the bight at all times either. If the tree let go he would have no time to react and be hurt, crushed or worse. Watch it again.

Fence posting is cutting from the top down partially, then from underneath with the back of the bar at full rpm. The butt will come down and spike very hard into the ground, you don't want your feet anywhere near. You keep doing this until the tree comes right over backwards, they usually do. You have to have a decent saw with a long (24" at least) bar and be on your toes. A decent faller up there can show you. Be safe, get some help.


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## 1savagehunter (Jan 6, 2009)

hey Clearance ... good advice. Fenceposting is NOT for the faint of heart thou ... remember folks ... my pal does this for a living.


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## Brian VT (Jan 6, 2009)

clearance said:


> In a word, fencepost.
> You keep doing this until the tree comes right over backwards, they usually do.




Here's a mini-demo. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_431jQ6OABI&feature=related


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## clearance (Jan 6, 2009)

Brian VT said:


> Here's a mini-demo.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_431jQ6OABI&feature=related



Funny.


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## NHCowboy (Jan 6, 2009)

And I thought the running in one direction while watching the tree [hopefully] not fall on you was taught day one of felling class...


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 6, 2009)

Fenceposting is what I have been doing, but it really seemed sketchy to me. I think a book is in order, and if I can find a class to take it wouldn't hurt. This tree work is dangerous stuff. Thanks for everyone's input.


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 8, 2009)

Well, I got the job done. I did my face cuts on the top side, bore cut and left a backstrap. Used a wedge and cut the backstrap from below with a good escape route. I made sure to leave lots of hinge and the tree I was working on rolled off the snag with a little help from a line. Not too bad, but not something I want to play with on a regular basis. I left another one for the wind to take care of.


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## Brian VT (Jan 8, 2009)

Glad you're okay and have a chance to put some $ in your pocket.

Last night my wife told me she heard a huge tree crash down behind my house yesterday. I was so excited that I grabbed a flashlight and went out in the snowstorm to have a look. It's @ 26" diam. oak or ash, I think. Nice firewood, which I really need for next year.
Well, my excitement was short-lived. It's hung in a large fork of a white birch which is now bent over hard. That, and the stump split up about 3' and then the backstrap let go, leaving a dutchman(?) type hang up on the stump. I know a few pro. loggers around here but I don't know if they would go near this thing with a saw. I don't know that I could pull it down with a tractor and cables due to it being in that fork.
You wanna come give this one a try ? LOLJK.


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## 1savagehunter (Jan 8, 2009)

Brian ... that would be EASY for any pro. I'm no pro and I'd do it. Good luck


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## Brian VT (Jan 8, 2009)

1savagehunter said:


> Brian ... that would be EASY for any pro. I'm no pro and I'd do it. Good luck



I guess the birch would help for fenceposting it. That stump just scares the hell out of me, though. It really looks like the trunk wants to shoot back further past the stump and there doesn't seem to be a lot holding it from doing so.
I dunno. I'm a newb.


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## Mike PA (Jan 8, 2009)

If it isn't attached to the stump- pull it out with a truck or tractor. Only do the fencepost thing when you need to.

If there isn't a lot holding it, can you just hook up a chain and yank with a tractor or truck? Can you help with a few small cuts?

If it is attached to the stump too much too pull, there are a few options. You can cut the stump or you can cut the tree. Most of the time, cutting the tree is better, as the tree will drop straight down most of the time. If it is broken too high or you think there is back force, you can face cut the stump on the side and back cut it so the hinge is parallel to the way the tree fell and wedge or pull it over. Once over, then pull the tree out of the fork.

Hope this makes sense.


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 8, 2009)

Loaded up branches and trees are still scary to me. Every little cut gets evaluated now before it's done. It's bad how careless I was a few months ago when I picked up a chainsaw for the first time completely clueless to the danger I was putting myself in. After much reading and cutting, I am able to "read" the wood a lot better, not pinching my bar, not cutting dirty wood, etc...oh and those wedges are not for doorstops, people actually use those things for dropping trees!


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## Brian VT (Jan 8, 2009)

Mike PA said:


> If it is attached to the stump too much too pull, there are a few options.



I think there is quite a bit of backforce. It's still attached to the stump and the stump is split from the ground up to the trunk. I'll have a better look at it tonight and try to get some pics.


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## ray benson (Jan 8, 2009)

kodiakyardboy said:


> The real scary thing is these trees are 1/4 mile from the road and all wood has to be removed by manpower. The trouble people go to around here for firewood would make a normal person cringe. I have done about 8 cords from this location, all transported by manpower. What I would give for a team of oxen! Green wood sells for $250 a cord so it is worth it for me!



Are you using a cart or wheelbarrow? A 1/4 mile is a heck of a distance.


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm using a utility sled. 2-3 rounds at a time to the top edge of a ravine then rolling them down to the trail. Backbreaking labor for sure. I seriously envy all of you that have easy wood to get. Everything easy here has been gone for years, or is illegal. A few weeks ago, I was taking trips with the sled to the edge of the hill and saw two guys with a Toyota had loaded about a dozen of my rounds in their truck. It is ruthless around here- they made a quick exit. I have gone as far as to brush away my sled tracks and footprints in the snow to hide my trail. Woodcutting spots are as secret as good hunting spots.


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## Brian VT (Jan 8, 2009)

kodiakyardboy said:


> I seriously envy all of you that have easy wood to get.


I have 6 nice maples on the ground a farmer gave me. I just need to buck them. They're only 100' down a hill behind his house. I haven't got them yet because I'm lazy and waiting for dry ground so I can pick them up at the bottom of the hill with my truck rather than haul them up by sled or something. LOL !
You're more man than I am, hauling those 1/4 mile.


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## Bermie (Jan 8, 2009)

Getting hung ups down is fraught with danger!
Glad you got your down safely...

Some tips for the future:

Inspect the hung up and see whether it can be turned or rolled out of the one it is caught in, which is the ideal first move.

Invest in some long turning strops, either endless loops or eye/eye ones
A good long length 150' or so of bull rope.
Some more strops to use as anchors
Some big shackles or steel carabiners
A couple of decent pulleys for redirecting the line as necessary or for doubling the pull ratio
A decent come along / wire rope puller / manual winch (you did say machinery was not an option)

Assess the situation and identify risks and what could concevably go wrong
Take appropriate action to reduce risk
Wear your PPE - chaps and HELMET system
Work with a buddy
Have an emergency plan in place BEFORE cutting, truck pointing forward, keys in ignition, adequate first aid kit, cell phone, radio, written description of where you are (people can forget when a crisis hits) let others know where you will be working and when you plan to return.

Wrap a strop around the trunk such that when you attach a winch to it it will unwind and roll the tree to the side it wants to go.
If it is stuck in a fork, attach the strop to pull it out backwards.
Attach your pulling rope

Separate the trunk from the stump, there are several ways to do it, keep reading, asking questions, above all READ the tension and compression and be ready for sudden movement, it MAY just come down kerwhump! all of a sudden!

Select the anchor tree carefully, make sure it will hold against the forces.
Give yourself enough distance to complete the pull
If redirecting the pull line, NEVER stand in the 'triangle of death'
Always give yourself enough room for safety, look out for hangers and widowmakers, before AND after the pull

NEVER WALK UNDER a hungup, it can fall with no warning, stresses change and settle after cuts are made and it can fatal or life altering if you are under it when it goes!

Cutting bits off the bottom is a last resort, if you HAVE to do it, be SUPER aware, have your escape route well prepared.

Cheers


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## kodiakyardboy (Jan 8, 2009)

You're more man than I am, hauling those 1/4 mile.

Yeah right, all 155lbs of me. I am a stay at home dad so I will take drastic measures to make play money.
Also, thanks for the tips Bermie.


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## surffshr (Jan 23, 2009)

I have hooked rope to bottom of tree and used come along to pull bottom of tree back until it falls out of hang up.
It's a pain though.


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## ozzy42 (Jan 23, 2009)

Welcome to AS surfsshr


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## pdqdl (Jan 23, 2009)

I would think that an enterprising fellow could buy a whole bunch of culled logs from a mainland lumber operation, hook them to a tugboat, and make a killing on the firewood.


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## outofmytree (Jan 24, 2009)

Man you guys do it the hard way. Safest choice is simple. Move to WA. It aint cold enough here to worry about dying for firewood. Now dying of thirst waiting for the barmaid to notice you when its 3 deep on a friday night is a distinct possibility.


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## rdbee (Jan 31, 2009)

kodiakyardboy said:


> I think I will cut as much as I safely can and wait for the next windstorm or earthquake to drop the rest.



That's hilarious! But smart.


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## rdbee (Jan 31, 2009)

Old Sawman said:


> Hello, I'm brand new here, I signed up to ask questions but I thought I'd throw this in.
> When I get a widow maker here it's usually over a line fence in steep woods hillsides where I can't get a line to it. I back/bottom cut as high as I can reach and as deep as I dare, then back off and cut it off with the .243 with a combination of softpoints and full metal jackets.
> 
> I have not done one as large as yours, but I have done 16/18" oak with 10 to 30 shots depending on the backcut you can get. Cheap,quick, and safe.
> ...



HOLY SWEET F%#@k. THAT IS RETARDED! 
Better yet dump 50 dollars of gas on it and burn it down. LOL:greenchainsaw:


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