# stump grinder vs brush chipper



## Great Feller (Sep 5, 2008)

My next big purchase for my small tree service company is going to be a small stump grinder(25hp) or a small brush chipper (6" dia capacity). I work at Vermeer so I'm thinking about taking advantage of my employee discount. Or should I try to find a different brand or possibly something used? Either way, which would you rather have if you had just enough money for one but not both? Eventually I plan to have both I just don't have the money now. Thank You


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## Groundman One (Sep 5, 2008)

Great Feller said:


> My next big purchase for my small tree service company is going to be a small stump grinder(25hp) or a small brush chipper (6" dia capacity). I work at Vermeer so I'm thinking about taking advantage of my employee discount. Or should I try to find a different brand or possibly something used? Either way, which would you rather have if you had just enough money for one but not both? Eventually I plan to have both I just don't have the money now. Thank You




*Chipper!* Without a moment's hesitation. You can have a tree service with no stump grinder, but you can't have a tree service without a chipper. No chipper destroys your clean-up capability and logistics for dumping. 

Grinders are for when the tree is done and gone. If you don't have the chipper, how can you get rid of the tree in the first place?

Chipper, ma man.


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 5, 2008)

Groundman One said:


> *Chipper!* Without a moment's hesitation. You can have a tree service with no stump grinder, but you can't have a tree service without a chipper. No chipper destroys your clean-up capability and logistics for dumping.
> 
> Grinders are for when the tree is done and gone. If you don't have the chipper, how can you get rid of the tree in the first place?
> 
> Chipper, ma man.



I only know of one tree company here that DOES have a chipper. All the others just use either a grapple truck or a bobcat to load a dump truck and load ALL the wood AND brush and take it to the dump. 

It might have something to do with what you plan on doing with the wood. No one around here really uses it for firewood so it's easier to just load all of it and dump it.


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## appalachianarbo (Sep 5, 2008)

If I were going to buy a chipper or grinder, I'd definitely buy a chipper. 

Would I buy a 6" Vermeer chipper? No. I've used them several times, and the opening is just too small to fit anything. Even small crotches get stuck - the feed rollers just don't cut it. The chute also doesn't have a infinite angle swivel. It only has 3 options for discharge - what a pain. 

I know you have a Vermeer discount, but I'd buy a Bandit 65XL. The opening is 6x12, not 6x6 like the Vermeer, and the chute can go in any direction. Much more user friendly.


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## nametrux (Sep 5, 2008)

*Location*

Look at the locations of the replys.. One from where they will burn everything for heat. The other from where they dont need much heat. Something to consider.


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2008)

Look at your OWN revenue stream. What kind of work do you do most ? How big is the brush that you dispose of, and what is your volume? How would disposal charges, loading time, and roadtime be affected by chipping rather than loading & hauling brush?

How many stump grinding sales are you currently missing ?

Myself, I'd get a chipper, then rent or sub the stump grinding work. The labor you save on trimming trees with a chipper really make a difference. Keep in mind that a chipper almost always means that you must change your truck too, and your whole approach to doing the tree work.


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## Slvrmple72 (Sep 5, 2008)

A chipper would be the first choice. With higher fuel prices you want to be able to get the greatest volume of wood debris that you can in each load. Stuffing, cutting and smashing down branches will not be as efficient as chipping them up. Look at the removals you do and what you intend to do with the wood, will it be firewood or hauled to the dump? I bought my chipper, a 8" capacity chuck and duck, with the intention of only feeding it brush under 4" diameter limbs, the rest is firewood. Take your time in purchasing and have some money left over for repairs and service. You can get by without a chipper for a while but it requires more effort.


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## tree MDS (Sep 5, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I'd get the chipper before the stumper. Avoid Vermeer if you can.



+1. Vermeer sucks unless maybe for a stumper.


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## Groundman One (Sep 5, 2008)

gr8scott72 said:


> I only know of one tree company here that DOES have a chipper. All the others just use either a grapple truck or a bobcat to load a dump truck and load ALL the wood AND brush and take it to the dump.



But then you need a grapple truck and a dump truck to deal with branches, on top of the truck you're already using to get to the job. That's a lot of trucks and gas and manpower and wages and logistics.

We have an F350 with a covered dumper on the back pulling a 6" Vermeer. Two of us can A to Z a pretty respectable job in a day. It's the basic setup most companies have here. Inexpensive (so to speak) simple upkeep, easy parking, versatile enough to handle 90%+ of all jobs.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 5, 2008)

Absolutely the chipper first. Couldn't tell you how many HO's I told to put a flower pot on the stump and it would look nice before I bought my stumper. If I was in your position I'd definitely shy away from that chipper and pick up an old whisper. With the money you saved you could probably buy an old stumper as well. New equipment is nice but ANY equipment is good.


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## TreeGhost (Sep 5, 2008)

This is a debate I have been having for a long time now (with me, myself and I). I thought about buying a chipper, but I couldn't justify the cost / maintenance since I can bring the brush home and burn it. Most trees are within 30 miles of home so if I have to make 2-3 trips I don't mind. If I get a really big job I then rent a chipper for a half day. I figure I would rather have the stumper because it can make money for me. I pass on plenty of stump work to justify owning a small stumper. I think the big thing is what do you do with the chips / brush. Think about how much you are buying a chipper for vs how long it takes to haul your brush to the dump. How much does it cost to to operate / keep the equipment operating?


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## Groundman One (Sep 5, 2008)

What do you guys charge for grinding stumps?

When our machine works, which it hasn't in two or three years, thank God, we charged $6 an inch, measuring across the stump at ground height, to take it down about 8" or so underground.

Our machine is an old Vermeer with no self-propulsion. That part never worked. We had to push that thing into place. On a hill... _oy vey!_


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2008)

TreeGhost said:


> ...I thought about buying a chipper, but I couldn't justify the cost / maintenance since I can bring the brush home and burn it. Most trees are within 30 miles of home so if I have to make 2-3 trips I don't mind. ... How much does it cost to to operate / keep the equipment operating?




If you are transporting 2 loads per day, 20 miles round trip, you are loosing money compared to the expense of a good chipper. That will convert brush into 1 trip per day, MUCH faster on & off every job (no time wasted stacking & packing brush), and you will be working profitably more hours per day because you are not driving around to dispose of a load of brush.

I started on an old drum chipper, and I finally got a good one. It has probably been my best equipment purchase since I started business 26 years ago.


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## tree MDS (Sep 5, 2008)

Tree guy without chipper = joke. Or waiting to get thier hands on thier own somehow. I still dont have a grinder and this is year 12. Flower pots go so nicely on stumps, you just have to be sensitive to where its level when cutting.


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## Groundman One (Sep 5, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Tree guy without chipper = joke.



*The 11th Commandment. *


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## TreeGhost (Sep 5, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> If you are transporting 2 loads per day, 20 miles round trip, you are loosing money compared to the expense of a good chipper. That will convert brush into 1 trip per day, MUCH faster on & off every job (no time wasted stacking & packing brush), and you will be working profitably more hours per day because you are not driving around to dispose of a load of brush.
> 
> I started on an old drum chipper, and I finally got a good one. It has probably been my best equipment purchase since I started business 26 years ago.



I would have to make multiple trips just to take the chipper to the job plus pick-up the wood. If my jobs were drop and go then I would want a chipper. As long as I am taking the wood home to burn in the stove I may as well just add a load of brush to the top. I never stack the brush. I cut it and load it. So far it has worked great for me.


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## TreeGhost (Sep 5, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Tree guy without chipper = joke. Or waiting to get thier hands on thier own somehow. I still dont have a grinder and this is year 12. Flower pots go so nicely on stumps, you just have to be sensitive to where its level when cutting.



Brush Pile = bonfire = relaxing with a cold one! No joke about it unless you mean the ones we tell around the fire.


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## highasatree (Sep 5, 2008)

I,m on my fourth Vermeer 6 inch chipper and I wouldn't(or couldn't) do without it. I sub out all my stumps to a local guy, and I make sure that I at least make something off of the stump. I would of at least made money on the removal.
The Vermeer 600XL works best for me because I can take it off the truck and push it into a driveway or backyard. Takes up less room in my driveway. The chips are small and uniform and easy to get rid of. ie land scrapers us them, cemeteries, golf courses, paint ball fields and home owners.
Buy the chipper.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 5, 2008)

Chipper, no question. They are sweet.


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## tree MDS (Sep 5, 2008)

TreeGhost said:


> Brush Pile = bonfire = relaxing with a cold one! No joke about it unless you mean the ones we tell around the fire.



Beer and fire definately good, no doubt. As far as no chipper? maybe just different markets. Around here my ground guys couldnt keep up with my work with my old 200+ that I had (12",and still do), they would just keep pushing the feedrollers back and forth, back and forth. GRR... JUST CUT THE 'FN THING YOU MORON! No, I could not survive in a tree these days in CT with these workers and a 6" chipper- not doing my jobs. Not anymore, not sinse the 250, no way.


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2008)

TreeGhost said:


> I would have to make multiple trips just to take the chipper to the job plus pick-up the wood. If my jobs were drop and go then I would want a chipper. As long as I am taking the wood home to burn in the stove I may as well just add a load of brush to the top. I never stack the brush. I cut it and load it. So far it has worked great for me.



Well, of course! I was not trying to refute your operation, I was trying to respond to the original question posted by Great Feller.

So many of us on this forum don't seem to understand that there are more ways to run a tree business than the way they happen to run theirs.


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## Mikecutstrees (Sep 5, 2008)

*6" vermeer*

I had a 6" vermeer, nice chipper. You have to side trim alot though and they are very top heavy. (Don't ask how I know). I now have a BC1000 (12''). Thats the way to go in my opinion. Excellent chipper, big opening 12"x17" and lots of power. When you have to take down a pine or spruce or willow you will wish you had the 12". The 12" is alot heavier though (5,000 lbs vs 2'000 for the 6").I also have a grinder SC252. But it gets used about 1/10th the time the chipper does. The chipper is the big money maker. Alot of the times you don't even need to haul away the chips because homeowners use them. So get the chipper and think about bigger than a 6". Just my 2c's...... Mike


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## TimberMcPherson (Sep 5, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Well, of course! I was not trying to refute your operation, I was trying to respond to the original question posted by Great Feller.
> 
> So many of us on this forum don't seem to understand that there are more ways to run a tree business than the way they happen to run theirs.



Thats the great thing about this site, so many different skills and abilitys from working in different environments. Yet if any of us worked in others cities we would have probably have to rethink the gear we have and the way we do things.

The Vermeer 6's have an average at best reputation. But then there have been some downright terrible examples of brand new brush bandit 65's and 9 inchers being built majorly incorrectly and brush bandit doing dodgy patch ups to get them out the door and not coming to the game when the problems became evident within a dozen hours of ownership.
But many people have great runs with both.
If you can get a great deal on the vermeer, do it. Most of the time any working chipper is better than no chipper by miles. Size just depends on your budget, type of work, way you operate, cost or demand for firewood locally, volume of work, number of guys in your crew, size of your truck, access and price of dumping, job access, parking availability, commute distances, maintaince issues, size of your own property, scope of potential work, private demand for chips, your equipment and space for handling mulch etc etc etc.


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## Great Feller (Sep 6, 2008)

Wow I'm impressed with all the replies! I take it I need to get a chipper first. Just a little FYI I cut and bend all of the 2" red safety tubes on all Vermeer brush chippers. So do you guys think Vermeer equipment sucks? It kinda seems that way. I know it's expensive stuff. 

Right now I have a Zr2 s-10, a small trailer (3500lb axle), a 4 wheeler and a couple chainsaws. I think the guys on here have talked me into getting the Stihl pole saw. It's expensive. Can I incorporate a brush chipper with what I have? I mean, most tree service companies I've seen have a covered truck with the chipper positioned to blow chips in. Would my s-10 work with a vermeer 600 or am I looking at buying another truck? 

Lastly, where the heck can I get some affordable general liability insurance? Also, will I need any kind of a permit or license to do felling/trimming within city limits? You have to have a license to take a crap these days.


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## TimberMcPherson (Sep 6, 2008)

The bigger vermeers tend to be good, but the 6 inch just isnt all it could be.


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## Groundman One (Sep 6, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> The bigger vermeers tend to be good, but the 6 inch just isnt all it could be.



We've got about 450 hours on our newer Vermeer 625B _(the old one had about 200 hours before it was stolen.)_ and while it never fails to work, I agree it's not perfect. The little puppy needs servicing and TLC. But when it does works well, it is the perfect match between power and portability. If our F350 dumper is being used, we slap the 625 behind my buddy's F150 or the boss's F250 and chip right into the box. Throw the wood on top and you're off. You can handle a decent sized job like that. A very flexible setup.


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## TimberMcPherson (Sep 6, 2008)

I have come across 2 6 inch vermeers that have torn up the shafts after the bearings have come loose. But my gravely has done the same! 

Its a shame you guys dont get the hansa chippers over there, they are the best 6 inch chippers I have come across. Im saving hard for one at the moment!


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## pdqdl (Sep 6, 2008)

I have one last comment: buy the biggest chipper your truck can pull. If that means ponying up the money for a 9" instead of a 6": do it ! You won't regret it.

My Bandit 200xp (12" capacity) can be towed by any decent one ton truck, and it will do so much more than any 6" or 9" chipper. I would recommend making sure the trailer brakes are working right if you will pull it with a lighter truck. When you get into wood that doesn't feed well like mulberry trees, the bigger throat makes a HUGE difference.

Sometimes I wish I had the 250, they have given that model a really big throat. That'll be next...


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## pdqdl (Sep 6, 2008)

Great Feller said:


> ....
> 
> Right now I have a Zr2 s-10, a small trailer (3500lb axle), a 4 wheeler and a couple chainsaws. I think the guys on here have talked me into getting the Stihl pole saw. It's expensive. Can I incorporate a brush chipper with what I have? I mean, most tree service companies I've seen have a covered truck with the chipper positioned to blow chips in. Would my s-10 work with a vermeer 600 or am I looking at buying another truck?
> 
> Lastly, where the heck can I get some affordable general liability insurance? Also, will I need any kind of a permit or license to do felling/trimming within city limits? You have to have a license to take a crap these days.



If you are getting by right now without the pole saw, you will do better to get a chipper. Take a 20' ladder, a decent pole pruner with an additional saw attachment, and you will be better set up than with just the gas powered saw. Get the basics before you buy the luxuries. You will be able to do just as much work. For less money invested.

Are you doing this full time ? In an s-10? Get a bigger truck! Nothing less than a decent one ton with a dump bed. Then build a cheap wooden chip box on it, get a decent used chipper as big as you can pull safely, and go make some real money. You will only be sorry if you buy junk or if you can't sell enough work to make it worthwhile. Keep the s-10 for doing bids and errands. I wouldn't think of getting a chipper until I had a box to shoot chips into.

An s-10 can't haul enough wood/weight to use profitably unless you are really banking your customers on a bunch of small jobs. In which case, you should be able to afford a bigger truck anyway.

Insurance: call everybody, take quotes.


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## tree MDS (Sep 6, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I have one last comment: buy the biggest chipper your truck can pull. If that means ponying up the money for a 9" instead of a 6": do it ! You won't regret it.
> 
> My Bandit 200xp (12" capacity) can be towed by any decent one ton truck, and it will do so much more than any 6" of 9" chipper. I would recommend making sure the trailer brakes are working right if you will pull it with a lighter truck. When you get into wood that doesn't feed well like mulberry trees, the bigger throat makes a HUGE difference.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I had the 250, they have given that model a really big throat. That'll be next...



I just recently got my hands on a 250 with all the options available and the JD 125. I was still using my 200+ with the 76 hp cummings. I knew it would be easier and less headaches without all the trimming, but I didnt expect to be that much faster-and more profitable. Of course my 200 is 18 years old.


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## Wortown Mick (Sep 6, 2008)

I am just so spoiled with the 1890 w/ downforce. 
I know how to make cuts to get anything to feed into any chipper but gaddamn that downforce makes life easy. Full trees and leaders getting fed by the bobcat or winch needing minimal cutting. A little jiggle of the handle and in it goes.Obviously I dont own my own 75 thousand dollar chipper though 

First off, the ABSOLUTE minimum id wanna chip into is a 3/4 ton pickup with dump insert. You can make a plywood chip box in a pickup bed and lay a tarp so you can tie it to a tree and drive off to "dump" , then pull the tarp out with the truck but its a hassle x10. A downeaster dump insert with sideboards and either a plywood roof or a mesh tarp for a roof is a good startup setup.

A one ton dump is KEY.

A 6" chipper isnt my idea of a good time. But it beats stacking brush x1000

The biggest chipper you can afford, plus the magic lever ...yoke lift/downforce.


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## Great Feller (Sep 6, 2008)

I'm running out of cash guys. My goal is to have 0 loans for this business. I'm going to start small. The s10 is all I have for now. I know it will pull a trailer with a stumpgrinder on it..... it doesn't sound like it will work with a chipper though. I think having a grinder would be pretty handy since a lot of homeowners can cut down there own trees but they can't grind a stump away. That's where I can come in. 

On a side note, bought a stihl ht131 pruning saw today... I guess I got a deal? I drove 30 miles one way to buy this thing. Get to the store and he took it in back and started. I heard him fire it up like 4-5 times. Then he came out and said he wasn't going to give it to me... Something about it wouldn't idle right. I was like,,, are you kidding me!!!! He said he'd order another one. So I went home empty handed. I called the store back and said I wasn't interested anymore unless he'd work out a deal. He said after I left he looked at it and it was something minor with the throttle cable. I said I don't know. Then he said he'd throw in 2 chains, 6 pack of oil, and take 10% off. That's what I'm talking about. Good dealer support. Total cost with tax $625.94. I'm going to the dealers house tomorrow morning to pick it up.


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## TimberMcPherson (Sep 8, 2008)

The advice your getting from all these experienced arborists is all good, if your working the same as the guys that are giving it.

You have to work out yourself whats going to work for you.The vermeer 6 will probably serve you well enough as a first chipper, I started by loading a trailer and it took 3 years before I could afford a second hand 6 which I still use, I am upgrading to another 6 over anything bigger BUT I dont work where you are, so I might be completely off key.

Dont go nuts buying gear, theres PLENTY of time and money for that later. Get in with the basics and see what you need as you get into work. If you need to rent a chipper for a while to see what suits, by all means do it so you know what works, its far cheaper renting wrong than buying wrong.

Any bit of gear is infinitely valuable or worthless depending on if you can get good use from it and if you have the work to justify it. 

Good luck mate, it can be tough out there. Basics first.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 8, 2008)

Groundman One said:


> But then you need a grapple truck and a dump truck to deal with branches, on top of the truck you're already using to get to the job. That's a lot of trucks and gas and manpower and wages and logistics.
> 
> We have an F350 with a covered dumper on the back pulling a 6" Vermeer. Two of us can A to Z a pretty respectable job in a day. It's the basic setup most companies have here. Inexpensive (so to speak) simple upkeep, easy parking, versatile enough to handle 90%+ of all jobs.



Having chipped mountains of brush until buying my grapple 
no looking back and I do mean back sore, back up, back over?
My grapple has it's own dump bed eighteen foot by six foot sides
and can pack all I put on the ground in a day into one load most days.
I will not be sweaty,I will not dull many chains, I will not have to unhook
chipper and dump, I will not have to cut the logs into cookies. I will do
any job twice as fast and be twice as fresh after the day as someone
chipping with any chipper other than a grapple fed whole tree. I do
chip with my whisper for chits and giggles and small jobs but removals
the Mack is on the road.


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## arbor pro (Sep 8, 2008)

gr8scott72 said:


> I only know of one tree company here that DOES have a chipper. All the others just use either a grapple truck or a bobcat to load a dump truck and load ALL the wood AND brush and take it to the dump.
> 
> It might have something to do with what you plan on doing with the wood. No one around here really uses it for firewood so it's easier to just load all of it and dump it.



The question of 'chipper or stumper' can only be answered by each business owner. The advice on this forum is great but, each owner/operator has to understand his own market and figure out how to best meet the needs of that market.

I have gone back and forth between chippers and dump trailers for the past 20+ years. Which one I use primarily depends on whether or not I have a place to dispose of the logs and brush and if I have to pay for it. If I do most of my work within a relatively short distance of my disposal site and can dump brush/logs for free, then I really have no justification for the cost and maintenance of a chipper. However, if I have to drive a longer distance and have to pay for disposal of debris but can give chips away for free, well then, the decision to get a chipper gets a lot easier.

That is the position I am in right now. With my mini skid loader and dump trailer, I can clean up logs and brush much faster than I can with a chipper; however, I am having to pay for dumping the debris at the local landfill. When I sit down and crunch the numbers, the chipper will save me trips to the dump (time and fuel) and dump fees. The cost of buying/maintaining teh chipper will come out slightly ahead of using the dump trailer so, I'm justified in making the purchase. If, however, I could find a rural lot close by to dump/burn brush and logs, I would not buy a chipper. For me, hauling with a dump trailer would be more economical. I can say this because I have the numbers to back up my reasoning through careful record keeping.

Now, back to the question of 'chipper vs stumper'. If you don't need a chipper because you have a free site to dump/burn debris and your market area does not require a lot of long-distance travel from that disposal point, then don't buy either a grinder or a chipper - instead - buy a dump trailer and bigger pickup. (Either way, get a bigger truck- something with a dump on it) My 2 cents...


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## Slvrmple72 (Sep 8, 2008)

Great post Arborpro! You bring up one other thing to consider and that is the versatility and timesaving abilities of a miniskidsteer. Ideally a dump trailer and a mini with a grapple would be a great way to run a small one/two man tree business keeping in mind the other variables you brought up regarding disposal/dump fees/distance to haul woody debris. Why even buy a stump grinder? The Toro Dingos have a stump grinder PTO attachment and several other attachments to help grow your business in other treecare-related jobs.


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## woodchux (Sep 8, 2008)

In many areas it is illegal to bring home brush and burn it. You might want to check with DHEC or environmental services before you go that route.


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## arbor pro (Sep 8, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I just can't imagine doing tree work without a chipper! (50% of my work is pruning)



90% of my work is pruning; yet, I would gladly operate without a chipper if I had a free place to dispose/burn brush closeby my market area. As I do not have such a location at my disposal, I am forced to buy a chipper because it will be more economical than driving 10miles one-way to the landfill each time my dump trailer is full of branches. I love chippers (as I do all tree care equipment); however, for smaller operations, there is a definite downsight to owning/operating equipment - MAINTENANCE! I would rather operate with a low-maintenance dump trailer than with a chipper. That said, sometimes equipment is necessary - you just have to run the numbers and use your past experience and business records to justify each equipment purchase. While one tree guy might be able to make a profit off of using a chipper, another might actually lose money using one. I've been in both positions and keep changing my equipment lineup as my market and business needs change. 

There is no perfect equipment and labor setup for all arborist/landscapers/contractors, etc. Everyone has to figure out his or her market, his or her overhead and apply those factors towards deciding which equipment will bring a higher net profit at the end of the year. Mind you, I said NET profit, not GROSS - the number that far too many guys get hung up on when deciding what equipment is needed. If a chipper costs you more in bank payments, maintenance, operating costs and depreciation than running a dump trailer and pickup would (taking into consideration, of course, extra drive time to dump debris and extra fuel for that drive time) you'd be better off just running a dump trailer and pickup. If you can show the numbers that justify the chipper purchase, then let the numbers speak for themselves but, don't go buying a chipper just because someone else says he couldn't operate HIS business without one. Is your business EXACTLY the same as his...? 

Easy way to crunch the numbers is extimate how much time, disposal fees and fuel you will save by operting a chipper vs running dump trailer loads to a landfill. Then figure out what your annual operating cost will be for a chipper including bank payments, maintenance, fuel, depreciation, etc. If the chipper doesn't make you money over running the dump trailer, then you have to decide just how badly you want another toy to maintain - because, if it's not making you money in the long run, then it's just another big boy toy and it's not so much a business justification for buying one as it is personal gratification...


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## pdqdl (Sep 8, 2008)

arbor pro: You are right on target about equipment utilization. I just want to refine your argument a little bit.

Bank payments affect your cash flow, but have no real difference on profits. That is where depreciation comes into the formula. Unfortunately, most tree trimmers aren't too good at accounting, so you get a merging/mish-mash of accounting concepts on whether or not a company is making money.

The funny thing is, you can go broke and be forced out of business while making a handsome profit. And you can be loosing money all year long, while having spare cash to throw away on more tree toys. These are two concepts that are completely different: Cash flow (how much $$ you have in the bank) and profits (how much money you owe taxes on).

Most guys will do well to work on the cash flow concept: add up the money you spend to operate a machine. Subtract the money you save while using it. If you have more (theoretical) money after you bought it than you did before you got the machine, it's probably a good idea.


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## ropensaddle (Sep 9, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I just can't imagine doing tree work without a chipper! (50% of my work is pruning)
> 
> 
> 
> You can line up stump removals and then rent a stumper and go at it. It's not quite as easy to leave brush piles sitting for any length of time waiting to rent a chipper.



Tree co areas differ greatly I would starve pruning here. What many
of you make for good pruning is a tricky removal in this neck of the woods.
I do mostly dead and dangerous takedowns here, the pruning ends up
going to illegal landscapers & hacks mostly. I am too high on my trimming
to sell much of it.


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## arbor pro (Sep 9, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I would suggest a chipper before a dump trailer. Wood can be hauled in a pick up truck. A good chipper will more than pay for itself in saved labor. It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time packing brush in a pickup truck or dump trailer. I have to chuckle when I see some fly by night operation hauling brush down the road because I know those guys are not working very efficiently.
> 
> A pickup truck and a six inch chipper can handle way more brush than a pickup truck and a dump trailer and take less time doing it.
> 
> It's an essential piece of gear for almost all tree companies, big or small.



No dispute from me that a good chipper is an essential piece of gear for MOST tree companies IF they do not have a close-by location to dump/burn debris. But I can tell you from experience having been in both situations; 1) having a dump site where I could take brush/logs and burn it and 2) having no such site nearby and I can heartily tell you that a chipper is not ALWAYS the most profitable way to dispose of debris.

Having a chippper works for most tree guys but, it costs more than dumping for some others. Let's agree to disagree on this one. You make some good points about having a chippper but, I will tell you from experience, it is not an essential piece of equipment for a tree care company. 

Using a dump trailer to haul debris does NOT make one a 'fly by night' arborist. However, listening to someone else tell you what equipment to buy and allowing them to make all your decisions for you does, IMO, make you a 'fly by night' businessman. Each businessman has to think for himself and not just imitate the mainstream companies if he wants to keep his head afloat in today's competitive market. There are many good reasons to justify the purchase of equipment. There are as many or more good reasons to keep things simple with low overhead. What works for one may not be the profitable solution for another...


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## Mikecutstrees (Sep 9, 2008)

The thing that bothers me about burning brush is thats it's dirty and looks unproffessional. Dumping a bunch of fuel on green branches and limbs and then burning it in my opinion is environmentally irresponsible. Your polluting the air we breath and probably the ground with the fuel your dumping. I know this won't make me popular by saying this but a chipper pollutes far less than a burn pile and the byproduct is useful. Just something to think about. .... 
Mike

P.S. I have burned brush in situations where it was the only choice, Once when I had to prune some pines at the bottom of a huge hill where I was unable to get the chipper to. So in some situations I can understand it....


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## geofore (Sep 9, 2008)

*burn vs chipper*

Burning robs all the fungi and bugs of a food source. Some of the animals would miss the gym and house they use the pile for but weigh that against the money you make/save on clean up or selling chips/mulch. No trips to the dump if the HO wants to mulch the trees and flowers around the house. I've got an older 1220 with the perkins deisel and it chips just fine. The auto feed means no more chuck and duck and the perkins has enough hp(96) to eat anything you can get past the 12"x17" opening. With all the HO's deep into volcano mulching around their trees no more trips to the dump. Ever since they mulched the trees over at the golf course like 3'-4' volcanos erupting trees you can't pile the mulch on high enough to make the homeowners happy unless they have a volcano too. You can tell all you want about how that's not good for the tree, they still want the volcano look like at the golf course, the bigger the better. I'd go with the chipper then the stump grinder.


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## arbor pro (Sep 9, 2008)

If you let green debris sit for a little while, it becomes brown debris. Brown debris burns without dumping fuel on it.  

If you are able to give the chips away, it does make having a chipper an environmentally responsible way to dispose of debris. Cost of operating the chipper does, however, have to be considered if one wants to stay in business.

Like I said before, chippers are a great tool for many many tree care, landscaping, construction, etc companies. However, they aren't essential for everybody - especially the part-timers or one-man operations.

One of my local 'competitors' (if you can call him that) runs a one-man full-time tree removal business. He has WAY more equipent than he has manpower to operate or even transport from site to site. He spends more time trying to get his bucket truck, chip truck, whole-tree chipper, gooseneck trailer, bobcat, stump grinder and whatever else he can think of from one site to the next. It takes him 4 times as long to do a job with all of his equipment than I can do it in with half as much stuff. He's the perfect example of someone having too much equipment and not being an efficient operation.

If we get back to the original post, you may recall that the fellow who posed the debate between chipper or grinder currently has only an s-10 pickup and small trailer. That s-10 isn't going to make much of a chip truck. If he buys a chipper, he's also going to have to buy a bigger truck to chip into. So, first he has to commit to buying a bigger truck - whether he simply hauls the debris in it or whether he then commits to buying a chipper and chips into the truck. The chipper debate is moot for him IMO unless he commits to getting a bigger truck. A 6" chipper and s-10 will be much less efficient than simply hauling debris in a dump trailer as far as I see it. I'm all about efficiency and that just doesn't sound efficient at all for a commercial tree service.


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## pdqdl (Sep 9, 2008)

Yep. Y'er right again Arbor-pro.

That's why I told him to get a bigger truck first, then worry about getting more tree toys.

An s-10 would be about my last choice for a tree truck.


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## appalachianarbo (Sep 9, 2008)

> Using a dump trailer to haul debris does NOT make one a 'fly by night' arborist.


Thank you! 

I've struggled with the decision to either get a chipper and dump truck, or get a new pickup and continue using my dump trailer. Right now, I can't justify the chipper and dump truck, no matter how much owning them would make me feel more like a "tree guy." I'm currently doing a lot of insect control, plant health care, consultations, and no-cleanup pruning and removals. For my pruning and removals that require cleanup, I either pack it all into the trailer (which can hold quite a bit, by the way - I can fit a whole day's worth of debris in it), or rent a chipper and blow into the dump trailer (which requires two trips). I've also thought about continuing to rent the chipper and getting a small dump truck (dodge 3500 quad cab).


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## Rftreeman (Sep 9, 2008)

if all I had was a pickup and trailer I'd probably buy the stump grinder, you can haul brush on the truck and trailer then go back and get the grinder and do the stump.

right now I have a P.O.S old (early 70's) wood chuck 12" drum chipper with a 4 cylinder that has lost it ump long ago but I got a deal on it and the 1 ton chip truck but if I could trade them for a grapple they'd be gone in a flash.

edit: I think the way you handle your business says more about you than your equipment, you can have all the equipment in the world and not be a "pro" and remember, "pro" is an abbreviation for PROFESSIONAL, I think a lot of people have forgotten the meaning of PRO.


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 9, 2008)

geofore said:


> Burning robs all the fungi and bugs of a food source. Some of the animals would miss the gym and house they use the pile for but weigh that against the money you make/save on clean up or selling chips/mulch. No trips to the dump if the HO wants to mulch the trees and flowers around the house. I've got an older 1220 with the perkins deisel and it chips just fine. The auto feed means no more chuck and duck and the perkins has enough hp(96) to eat anything you can get past the 12"x17" opening. With all the HO's deep into volcano mulching around their trees no more trips to the dump. Ever since they mulched the trees over at the golf course like 3'-4' volcanos erupting trees you can't pile the mulch on high enough to make the homeowners happy unless they have a volcano too. You can tell all you want about how that's not good for the tree, they still want the volcano look like at the golf course, the bigger the better. I'd go with the chipper then the stump grinder.



Hijacking the thread a bit, but I think it's time for you to go and talk to the golf course superintendent about his poor practices.


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## chucknduck (Sep 9, 2008)

*progression*

my order: Ford pickup, trailer, stumper, chipper, sides on the trailer, bucket, grapple. Did the pickup with a trailer and a stump grinder thing for a while before I bought the chipper, but now I wont do trees without it or the grapple truck


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## ropensaddle (Sep 10, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> You might be high on your trimming because you are stuck on that taunt-line!
> 
> I was thinking of you when I wrote my post. For removals like you are doing a knuckle boom and a big box is hard to beat.
> 
> I like the knuckle boom trucks with large boxes with removable tops that are designed to be used as a chipper box.



Lol fair enough on the pun  I have chipped into mine
but it does not have the fancy top The main advantage
is the log especially on fifty inch dbh! It has saved my back
for several more years god willing! On the trims I do get, my
pickup and chipper will easily and economically handle and really
the silky has kept the taught line untied


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## Treetom (Sep 10, 2008)

I suggest that you invest in the brush chipper. It's a nice machine for compacting a bulky load of branches into a compact package. I've got a 4 yard dump box on my 1-ton that will hold all the brush from most of the larger trees I remove, when chipped up, including the stump grinding clean up. Hauling the same brush in unprocessed form would take a heck of a big truck or a lot of trips to the dump with a smaller set up. There are also many more diposal options with wood chips. I've had good luck offering them free to local nurseries and greenhouses as a mulch. (Line up a greenhouse/nursery in each community you service) And some clients will keep them for their gardens and landscaping, saving you the time and expense of transporting them to a dump site. My 2-cents.


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 10, 2008)

Treetom said:


> I suggest that you invest in the brush chipper. It's a nice machine for compacting a bulky load of branches into a compact package. I've got a 4 yard dump box on my 1-ton that will hold all the brush from most of the larger trees I remove, when chipped up,



He has a S-10 not a 1 ton.


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 10, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Lots of times he could just aim the chipper right were the customer wants the chips and chip a pile. A S-10 can easily pull a Bandit 65xl six inch capacity chipper and get it in some pretty tight spots. It weighs less than a ton.
> 
> 
> The S-10 in almost a moot point anyway. You can not do the main hauling for a tree service with an S-10.



I agree. It just seems people on here giving him advice are putting the cart before the horse. Need a good truck first.


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## pdqdl (Sep 10, 2008)

Didn't I say that a while back ? 

(http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1135029#post1135029)

I'm starting to think you guys don't read my posts.


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## Mikecutstrees (Sep 10, 2008)

*building the business*

I built my business for a year with my ford ranger, a wooden box on the back and a 6" chipper. I raked out the chips with a metal rake. Efficient .... no. Low overhead..... yes. And I was building a customer base without being up to my eyeballs in debt. And later you appreciate that dump truck SOOOO much more. Best of luck.... do neat, quality work and people will spread the word. ... Mike


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## BewtifulTreeMan (Sep 21, 2008)

*get a stump grinder*

The vermeer 252 is good machine. You can make as much by your self with a 252 and your S10 as a two man tree crew with a dump truck and good chipper. Sounds to me like you should focus on stumps to get the cash flowing and later on think about getting more into tree service. Stump grinding is boring but it pays well. Just don't hit a gas line or other utility. In colorado all you have to do is dial 811 to have the utilities marked with flags and spray paint - and it doesn't cost you a penny. I know guys who make bank doing nothing but stumps and operate uninsured. Insurance is still a good idea though. Good luck!


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