# This 066 Grenaded........What The Hell Happened???????



## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

OK, I know what happened......but that's a cool title huh? 

Also, it really ain't _that_ grenaded, but it's pretty fubared. 

The saw is an 066 with an aluminum flywheel, it's been ported with cut squish in my "normal" configuration. It was blowing around 200 psi, and the owner says it was tuned correctly. 

All parts are OEM, except a Meteor piston. 

BTW, This is the first 660/066 that I've done that ended up like this.......but **** happens when you party naked. 

Take a look at these first pics, and let's kick it around......what do you think caused this carnage?


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

Looks like a rock got thru the air filter


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## eiklj (Dec 4, 2013)

Bad bearings?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

I have more pics, but let's kick this some first......

Jon.....you are incorrect.


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## singinwoodwackr (Dec 4, 2013)

spark plug lost its electrode?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

eiklj said:


> Bad bearings?



When the saw was rebuilt, all the bearings were cleaned in my ultrasonic tank, carefully inspected, and reinstalled.


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## albert (Dec 4, 2013)

spark plug


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

singinwoodwackr said:


> spark plug lost its electrode?





albert said:


> spark plug



Nope....


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

did you leave your wrist watch inside during surgery again ?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

Another pics that was pretty telling to me.


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## albert (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> When the saw was rebuilt, all the bearings were cleaned in my ultrasonic tank, carefully inspected, and reinstalled.


 That doesn't insure they will stay that way though.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

_A very small rock? ...... Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science??????_


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> When the saw was rebuilt, all the bearings were cleaned in my ultrasonic tank, carefully inspected, and reinstalled.



This just means the bearings were good when the saw was rebuilt ya know. 



Trx250r180 said:


> did you leave your wrist watch inside during surgery again ?



Did I? Oh ****.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

busted a ring

the lower one seems to be missing a piece next to the pin


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## Scoutillac (Dec 4, 2013)

Detonation


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

albert said:


> That doesn't insure they will stay that way though.



A very astute observation. 

What might cause a bearing failure after just a few tanks???????


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## albert (Dec 4, 2013)

Ring pin


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## DexterDay (Dec 4, 2013)

Metal shavings and thick carbon? All I see.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

Scoutillac said:


> Detonation



I've yet to see detonation damage in a saw engine.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Another pics that was pretty telling to me.


Stuck the scrench thru the muffler while running?
I'm done. Carry on as you were


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

These two pics tell me a lot about what killed this engine......


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## banana boat (Dec 4, 2013)

Looks like a bearing came appart or a ring locating pin fell out


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

why is the top ring a rainbow color ,and no sign of oil on the piston or inside the muffler ?


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 4, 2013)

opcorn:


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## Tractorsaw1 (Dec 4, 2013)

Looks like small carb screws played hammer time on top for a while.

My 064/66 aftermarket piston with popup gave up the ghost sunday, part of the piston top came off. It really kicked for 5 years, so now Im in the same boat


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Looks like a rock got thru the air filter



It sure does don't it? 



eiklj said:


> Bad bearings?





albert said:


> That doesn't insure they will stay that way though.





banana boat said:


> Looks like a bearing came appart or a ring locating pin fell out



What killed the bearing though? Compression? Raw power? I've built dozens of 066 exactly like this......no failures. 



Trx250r180 said:


> why is the top ring a rainbow color ,and no sign of oil on the piston or inside the muffler ?



You are on to something Brian......


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## The Ripper (Dec 4, 2013)

where's the spark arrester or what ever you call it .


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

Exhaust side damage, picture of hollow muffler as a clue? Something from the muffler got in and krunked it up? I can't see anything else missing or broken. (Believe it or not, that's a serious guess)


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

The Ripper said:


> where's the spark arrester or what ever you call it .



Still in the muffler where it's suppose to be. 



HuskStihl said:


> Exhaust side damage, picture of hollow muffler as a clue? Something from the muffler got in and krunked it up? I can't see anything else missing or broken. (Believe it or not, that's a serious guess)



That muffler shell is awfully dry ain't it? Where is the oil?


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

amsoil 100 to 1 opcorn:

i run 32 to 1 like you had me do ,when i tune by ear in the cut ,i adjust rich till it burbles then cleans out in the cut ,every time i inspect my piston ,it is slick in oil ,and oil in the muffler some ,i see no oil here like in my saws ,too lean on oil will kill the bearings in i hi-po saw


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## The Ripper (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Still in the muffler where it's suppose to be.
> 
> 
> 
> That muffler shell is awfully dry ain't it? Where is the oil?


 

Ran non mixed gas


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

It's even dry in here......that's weird huh?


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## Plan-b (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> These two pics tell me a lot about what killed this engine......


 Is it me, or the left side muffler bolt have carbon under where the head of the bolt should be?


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## machinisttx (Dec 4, 2013)

Bearings locked up(no oil), then disintegrated, followed by pieces of the race getting sucked up the transfer port into the combustion chamber?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> amsoil 100 to 1 opcorn:
> 
> i run 32 to 1 like you had me do ,when i tune by ear in the cut ,i adjust rich till it burbles then cleans out in the cut ,every time i inspect my piston ,it is slick in oil ,and oil in the muffler some ,i see no oil here like in my saws ,too lean on oil will kill the bearings in i hi-po saw



Amsoil Saber @ 80:1

Didn't that long to kill it either. 

How many tanks of fuel Troy?????


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

The Ripper said:


> Ran non mixed gas


No way. Who lends a masterminded 066 to their BIL?


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## moody (Dec 4, 2013)

Gassed


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## struggle (Dec 4, 2013)

the only thing that I see or question is that the muffler is not dual port or and extra port added and if you ported it I would think there should be an extra exhuast port so me thinks that you didn't send it out with a regular cover like it has on it now? Possibly when owner changed the cover or something a bolt of washer was left in the muffler shell and found its way into the cylinder.

Its a stretch but all I can think of?


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## machinisttx (Dec 4, 2013)

The new pics look like the rod bearing disintegrated...


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

machinisttx said:


> Bearings locked up(no oil), then disintegrated, followed by pieces of the race getting sucked up the transfer port into the combustion chamber?



Bingo......

It had oil, just not enough for the pressure it was under.



moody said:


> Gassed



No scoring on the piston.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

was there any fuel in the tank when you got it ? dump it on the bench and when it dries should leave an oil spot if it has mix in it ?

disregard ,i see above post now


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

machinisttx said:


> Bearings locked up(no oil), then disintegrated, followed by pieces of the race getting sucked up the transfer port into the combustion chamber?


Needed ceramic bearings. Can run RP at 200:1 with ceramic bearings


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## moody (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Bingo......
> 
> It had oil, just not enough for the pressure it was under.
> 
> ...


At 80:1 he may as weall gassed it lol


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## struggle (Dec 4, 2013)

same here disregard my comment. I now see the rod picture as well. Does it have two ports on the exhaust though?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> amsoil 100 to 1 opcorn:
> 
> i run 32 to 1 like you had me do ,when i tune by ear in the cut ,i adjust rich till it burbles then cleans out in the cut ,every time i inspect my piston ,it is slick in oil ,and oil in the muffler some ,i see no oil here like in my saws ,too lean on oil will kill the bearings in i hi-po saw



I need to add a disclaimer to my sig.......

Any saw not used with H1R @ 32:1 will not be covered by Mastermind Worksaws. 



HuskStihl said:


> Needed ceramic bearings. Can run RP at 200:1 with ceramic bearings



Ceramic bearings won't last under the loads these engines see. Not according to guys that know far more than I do.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

struggle said:


> same here disregard my comment. I now see the rod picture as well. Does it have two ports on the exhaust though?



No, just one big one.


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## albert (Dec 4, 2013)

You could run any dino oil @ 32:1 and not tear up any bearings.


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## struggle (Dec 4, 2013)

Randy I tried to like your comment and I ended up making it funny iPad not fat finger friendly


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Needed ceramic bearings. Can run RP at 200:1 with ceramic bearings


That was a joke based on that eBay guy who sells ported saws with ceramic bearings. I was trying to cover up for my total lack of 2-stroke understanding. I think I just made it worse. FWIW I listened...


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

any problems with the h1r seperating from the fuel in cold weather ? i had dirt bike oils in the past that would ,i think it was 927 maxima


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## eiklj (Dec 4, 2013)

The suspense is killing me. ..


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> any problems with the h1r seperating from the fuel in cold weather ? i had dirt bike oils in the past that would ,i think it was 927 maxima


Idk, doesn't get cold here. Ohhh, I bet you were asking somebody who would actually know.......


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## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

eiklj said:


> The suspense is killing me. ..


Me too! There was something about oil and bearings, but honestly it was all over my head!


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 4, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Me too! There was something about oil and bearings, but honestly it was all over my head!


too lean an oil mixture broked the 066


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

The saw was used with Amsoil Saber @ 80:1

The lack of oil killed the crankshaft.

Pieces of the bearing cage from the big end of the rod bearing when up thru the transfer ports and wreaked the piston......


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 4, 2013)

Just curious Randy, do you recommend 32:1 for stock saws too? Or better phrased, do you recommend 32:1 in saws that call for 50:1? 

I've come to accept 50:1. Now you've got me wondering if its the best thing for my trimmers, blowers, etc. I'm thinking its all gonna get 40:1 anyway.


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## eiklj (Dec 4, 2013)

So what do I win?


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## HD2010 (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Amsoil Saber @ 80:1
> 
> Didn't that long to kill it either.
> 
> How many tanks of fuel Troy?????


 

I'm guessing a dozen tanks. I have now changed mixture 32:1 as reccomended by Randy.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

GrassGuerilla said:


> Just curious Randy, do you recommend 32:1 for stock saws too? Or better phrased, do you recommend 32:1 in saws that call for 50:1?
> 
> I've come to accept 50:1. Now you've got me wondering if its the best thing for my trimmers, blowers, etc. I'm thinking its all gonna get 40:1 anyway.



I run Belray H1R at 32:1 in every two stroke engine I own. The 50:1 bull **** is EPA crap.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

HD2010 said:


> I'm guessing a dozen tanks. I have now changed mixture 32:1 as reccomended by Randy.




I didn't think it went that long. It was still pretty clean. You must run a good sharp chain Troy. 

I'll supply a good crank, or a different bottom end, and the labor. You pay for the piston and gaskets. How's that sound? 

I'm serious about having happy customers.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

eiklj said:


> So what do I win?



A kick in the sack.


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## Frank Boyer (Dec 4, 2013)

Muffler bolt got loose


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## HD2010 (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I didn't think it went that long. It was still pretty clean. You must run a good sharp chain Troy.
> 
> I'll supply a good crank, or a different bottom end, and the labor. You pay for the piston and gaskets. How's that sound?
> 
> I'm serious about having happy customers.


 
I do try to keep sharp chains but I also blow saws off regularly. 

That's more than fair Randy. And I will send you another saw for porting when I get the 2 back.


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## eiklj (Dec 4, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> A kick in the sack.


It's what I need.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2013)

eiklj said:


> It's what I need.



Me too according to the wife.


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## Macman125 (Dec 4, 2013)

927 @ 40:1 seems to work pretty well for me. Smells good too.


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## 066blaster (Dec 5, 2013)

muffler bolt loosened and fell out. got in the cylinder. just had it happen on my 066, got it back from my brother inlaw that did some work on it when i brought it in the house i heard a rattle, took the muff off and sure enough, im glad i caught it before i ran it.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Frank Boyer said:


> Muffler bolt got loose





066blaster said:


> muffler bolt loosened and fell out. got in the cylinder. just had it happen on my 066, got it back from my brother inlaw that did some work on it when i brought it in the house i heard a rattle, took the muff off and sure enough, im glad i caught it before i ran it.



I've never had one of those Stihl bolts come loose. I love the locking teeth on the back of em.....sure wish Huskys had em.


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## 066blaster (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've never had one of those Stihl bolts come loose. I love the locking teeth on the back of em.....sure wish Huskys had em.


ok it was overtightened and broke out??


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

066blaster said:


> ok it was overtightened and broke out??



You didn't read the thread, did you?


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## fastLeo151 (Dec 5, 2013)

I been running saber 40:1 in my stuff and have had great success. I think its fine oil if you use enough of it....


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## fastLeo151 (Dec 5, 2013)

And I have 6 ported saws....


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

fastLeo151 said:


> I been running saber 40:1 in my stuff and have had great success. *I think its fine oil if you use enough of it....*



I'm sure that's true.....


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## RedFir Down (Dec 5, 2013)

So Randy are you going to use a new OEM crank or is there an aftermarket brand that you are comfortable enough to use?
Im just curious to hopefully save me troubles on future rebuilds. Thanks.


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## sgrizz (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> any problems with the h1r seperating from the fuel in cold weather ? i had dirt bike oils in the past that would ,i think it was 927 maxima


 You are correct on the 927 separating in the cold. I ran it in my 01 banshee and had to make sure I shook the can to mix it every time I poured it.


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## Fuzly (Dec 5, 2013)

Black, dry, and crusty=bad


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2013)

Fuzly said:


> Black, dry, and crusty=bad



True with nearly everything, no?


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## JoeB (Dec 5, 2013)

Randy do you recommend 32:1 on stock saw ?


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## hotjava66 (Dec 5, 2013)

fastLeo151 said:


> I been running saber 40:1 in my stuff and have had great success. I think its fine oil if you use enough of it....


Same here, have been using it for many years in all my stuff with 0 issues. Not saying its the best out there, but at normal mix rates it works very well. Never drank the 100/1 kool aid. Ran their race oil in my heavily modded sled for 6 years and p/c still looked as new.


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2013)

JoeB said:


> Randy do you recommend 32:1 on stock saw ?



↑I asked this on page 3.
Just curious Randy, do you recommend 32:1 for stock saws too? Or better phrased, do you recommend 32:1 in saws that call for 50:1?


Randy's response:
I run Belray H1R at 32:1 in every two stroke engine I own. The 50:1 bull **** is EPA crap.


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## JoeB (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks


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## hanniedog (Dec 5, 2013)

The cost of running 32-1 vs 50-1 is insignificant oil and gas wise. When you see this damage running 32-1 seems a no brainer. Just the thoughts of a firewood/farmer hack.


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## sefh3 (Dec 5, 2013)

That has to be one of the first that I have seen to not score the piston but to break a rod bearing due to not enough oil. 

Thank you for sharing this information, Randy. I've been running 40:1 with Stihl Ultra. I think it's time for me to switch.


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## hardpan (Dec 5, 2013)

That was a fun game and a powerful message sent. Thanks Randy.
Oh, I've been running Belray H1R 32:1 since you told me about it a few months ago. Funny how engine failure threads turn into oil threads. I like oil threads.


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## nk14zp (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I run Belray H1R at 32:1 in every two stroke engine I own. The 50:1 bull **** is EPA crap.


Back when I was old enough to be around chain saws all we used was 24:1 or 32:1. I think 50:1 is just plain nuts.


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## mdavlee (Dec 5, 2013)

nk14zp said:


> Back when I was old enough to be around chain saws all we used was 24:1 or 32:1. I think 50:1 is just plain nuts.



Any of the saws benefit from 32-40:1. Huskies seem to be more prone to this than stihls.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 5, 2013)

Unreal. Thanks for sharing Randy. I dont even like 50:1 and tell the firewood cutters 32:1 and no more then 40:1 on stock saws. Fck the epa and their 50:1 chit. Why folks think all them big end bearings and crankcase bearing go bad. Lack of fing oil.............


I was wondering why you had added 32:1 to your sig line


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## cowroy (Dec 5, 2013)

Randy, you gettin kick backs from bel ray?


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

RedFir Down said:


> So Randy are you going to use a new OEM crank or is there an aftermarket brand that you are comfortable enough to use?
> Im just curious to hopefully save me troubles on future rebuilds. Thanks.



I was able to get a Platt crankshaft for testing. It is in TRX250R180's 066 milling saw. The saw is ported just like the saw in this thread. So far the crank had been fine. I also have another 066 out there running an aftermarket crank that we rebuilt and ported. So far, so good. The problem is that when I order one of these cranks, I can't be sure I'm gonna get a Platt crank, or a "white box" crank of unknown origin. Because of that, I'm staying away for these parts.

Here's the thread on Brian's 066 build.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/testing-a-raisman-platt-crankshaft-in-an-ms660.237350/



hardpan said:


> That was a fun game and a powerful message sent. Thanks Randy.
> Oh, I've been running Belray H1R 32:1 since you told me about it a few months ago. Funny how engine failure threads turn into oil threads. I like oil threads.



I like oil threads too. They can make my job less stressful. 

I think most engines are gonna be fine at 40:1.......and I'm not sure all oils will work well at 32:1. In the engines I build, I would like to see Belray H1R @ 32:1 used. After using it myself for the last couple of years, I'm convinced that the engine will live a long and healthy life by simply dumping 4oz of this oil in each gallon of gas. I buy it in liter bottles on ebay........it's not expensive, or hard to find. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEL-RAY-H1-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item53fe3b2d7a&vxp=mtr



sefh3 said:


> That has to be one of the first that I have seen to not score the piston but to break a rod bearing due to not enough oil.
> 
> Thank you for sharing this information, Randy. I've been running 40:1 with Stihl Ultra. I think it's time for me to switch.



It's not piston scuffing that I worry about with 50: or even the 80:1 oils that I see being used. The piston will be fine most times. The bearings need plenty of oil when power output is jacked way up......that's way I'm so adamant about having more oil in the mix. 

The 390XP has been know to have bearing failures, as has the 372XT. I know of several of these saws that are running 200psi and more in production use for over a year with zero issues.......they are not being run on 50:1


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## HuskStihl (Dec 5, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Any of the saws benefit from 32-40:1. Huskies seem to be more prone to this than stihls.


Allegedly, particularly my beloved 385. I run straight diesel in it just to be safe


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

cowroy said:


> Randy, you gettin kick backs from bel ray?



I need to see if they would be interested in sponsoring Ol' Mastermind huh?


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## rmh3481 (Dec 5, 2013)

Looking at your pics on page one, in the third pic down, take a close look at the exhaust port roof. Also, notice the scuff on the exhaust side piston skirt, which started in the ring lands of the second pic. Agree it is a lubrication based failure, but I think as things began to tighten up the ring fracture and rpm energy had no where to go popping the bearing race. You would see heat discoloration on the bearing and connecting rod if there were skate problems prior to the failure.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

rmh3481 said:


> Looking at your pics on page one, in the third pic down, take a close look at the exhaust port roof. Also, notice the scuff on the exhaust side piston skirt, which started in the ring lands of the second pic. Agree it is a lubrication based failure, but I think as things began to tighten up the ring fracture and rpm energy had no where to go popping the bearing race. You would see heat discoloration on the bearing and connecting rod if there were skate problems prior to the failure.



Good point, and well researched.....


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## psuiewalsh (Dec 5, 2013)

I had an unmodded 066 crank bearing let go. I have heard of others. Maybe a weak design point?


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

rmh3481 said:


> Looking at your pics on page one, in the third pic down, take a close look at the exhaust port roof. Also, notice the scuff on the exhaust side piston skirt, which started in the ring lands of the second pic. Agree it is a lubrication based failure, but I think as things began to tighten up the ring fracture and rpm energy had no where to go popping the bearing race. You would see heat discoloration on the bearing and connecting rod if there were skate problems prior to the failure.



After thinking about this post I looked again and took more pics. The big end of the rod is starting to change color.....in these pics you can see it plainly. 

The bearing, crank, and case area are also very dry.











psuiewalsh said:


> I had an unmodded 066 crank bearing let go. I have heard of others. Maybe a weak design point?



Maybe, but at what oil ratio were they running?


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2013)

The thing that's funny about this is I know quite a few grass guys use Sabre at 80:1 and even 100:1 in string trimmers and blowers in the heat of summer. Some have for a decade. I realize the stresses of a trimmer and a chainsaw are very different. But blowers come a bit closer with the constant load and prolonged WOT.

Is the power produced by this ported saw simply consuming the available lube? Was it tuned way lean too? I'm not sure I understand. As dry as the bottom end of that looks, it makes me wonder how other machines can run that mix seemingly without issue?


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Remember that we add compression......that raises both static, and dynamic cylinder pressures. That, in turn, adds a heavier load to the connecting rod and bearings. The oil is a protective film that acts as a layer of protection between the moving parts. *I think* that the layer is too thin with 50 - 100:1 mixes and is hammered out, allowing the parts to make contact, and create fictional heat. 

Notice I said *I think*.......I don't have all the answers. That's why I enjoy these threads......it gives us a chance to compare notes, and do some brainstorming.


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## zogger (Dec 5, 2013)

GrassGuerilla said:


> Just curious Randy, do you recommend 32:1 for stock saws too? Or better phrased, do you recommend 32:1 in saws that call for 50:1?
> 
> I've come to accept 50:1. Now you've got me wondering if its the best thing for my trimmers, blowers, etc. I'm thinking its all gonna get 40:1 anyway.



Three things I learned on this site fast after toasting an expensive to me new saw, running it bone stock,..do not trust these "as shipped" carb settings on modern saws, they are to be suspected of being way too lean on the H screw, the mufflers may be quieter than olden days mufflers but are usually way too choked up to let the saw run well or stay cool, and 50:1 gas/oil is most likely some sort of emissions deal and not honest engineering.

Well...4 things. The 4th is, don't keep all your saws in the same place, and take security seriously before bad things happen...


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 5, 2013)

My 2 cents on the oil ,i have torn down stock saws run on stihl mix 50 to 1 ,the bearings were getting lube ,but turning black carbon color ,i have torn down my saws 32 to 1 and there is a generous coat of clean oil on everything and bearings look clean ,another finding 32 to 1 is leaner ,thicker oil through the same jet size allows you to pour in more fuel ,more fuel = more power ,ask husk how his saw ran at 50 to 1 and 32 to 1 ,he can vouch for this i think ,i see a better performance gain running the 32 to 1 ,a cooler engine will make more power ,better ring seal with thicker oil means better compresion which = more power ,last thing the math is super simple for dummies like me ,4 oz oil 1 gallon gas ,easy peasy


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## zogger (Dec 5, 2013)

GrassGuerilla said:


> The thing that's funny about this is I know quite a few grass guys use Sabre at 80:1 and even 100:1 in string trimmers and blowers in the heat of summer. Some have for a decade. I realize the stresses of a trimmer and a chainsaw are very different. But blowers come a bit closer with the constant load and prolonged WOT.
> 
> Is the power produced by this ported saw simply consuming the available lube? Was it tuned way lean too? I'm not sure I understand. As dry as the bottom end of that looks, it makes me wonder how other machines can run that mix seemingly without issue?



Pulling wood chips in varied diameter and hardness logs, with different sharpness and configged chains, is a lot different than pushing a string or impeller at a relatively constant torque and rpm load. IMO, can't prove it, but seems reasonable. I mean, example, how do you "dig in the dogs and lean" on a blower? 

Freaking two stroke oil is so dang cheap......why penny pinch on it?


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2013)

I


zogger said:


> Pulling wood chips in varied diameter and hardness logs, with different sharpness and configged chains, is a lot different than pushing a string or impeller at a relatively constant torque and rpm load. IMO, can't prove it, but seems reasonable. I mean, example, how do you "dig in the dogs and lean" on a blower?
> 
> Freaking two stroke oil is so dang cheap......why penny pinch on it?



Agreed on both points. Obviously different load situations. I know one of my trimmers has near a thousand hours on it with 50:1 Echo mix. And believe me, doing clean ups on foreclosed properties for for years, it's been under many prolonged heavy loads.


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## sgrizz (Dec 5, 2013)

excellent thread randy and has me thinking of switching from 50:1 to 32:1 to be safe. Now none of my saws are ported(yet)so I would rather be safe then sorry. I am using stihl ultra with Sunoco gtx 260 (98 oct)


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## HuskStihl (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> My 2 cents on the oil ,i have torn down stock saws run on stihl mix 50 to 1 ,the bearings were getting lube ,but turning black carbon color ,i have torn down my saws 32 to 1 and there is a generous coat of clean oil on everything and bearings look clean ,another finding 32 to 1 is leaner ,thicker oil through the same jet size allows you to pour in more fuel ,more fuel = more power ,ask husk how his saw ran at 50 to 1 and 32 to 1 ,he can vouch for this i think



Brian, I think I'm a few thousand foolish posts past the point of anybody taking my input seriously, but 32:1 runs great in my big saws. My 394 has neves seen 50:1 tho. I went from 40 to 32 on u'r rec and never looked back. Even tuned the 445 baby saw for 32 just so I didn't have different mixes laying around


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

sgrizz said:


> excellent thread randy and has me thinking of switching from 50:1 to 32:1 to be safe. Now none of my saws are ported(yet)so I would rather be safe then sorry. I am using stihl ultra with Sunoco gtx 260 (98 oct)



40:1 is a safe ratio I think......and am not sure all oils will work good @ 32:1. I'm a simple guy.......I read all I could find about oils, and settled on H1R, I'm sticking with it. It's designed to mix @ 32:1 up to 125cc.......


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## sgrizz (Dec 5, 2013)

Good point also randy. I want to get one of my saws ported so I see I would have to mix it at 32:1 in your signature at the bottom.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

sgrizz said:


> Good point also randy. I want to get one of my saws ported so I see I would have to mix it at 32:1 in your signature at the bottom.



It's good insurance for you as an end user, and for me as an engine builder. When something like this happens, I feel like I should try to cover it, well in this case that cost me a nice 660 bottom end I was planning to build. I don't need a 660, but I could have sold it.....

If I put that disclaimer in my sig, maybe I won't feel as responsible.

Chances are, I'll still kick in at least the damn labor.....I hate seeing saws broked.


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## sgrizz (Dec 5, 2013)

I admire your loyalty to stand behind what you build but you cannot be responsible for operator error.
You try to keep everyone happy and willing to work out deals to keepit fair.


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> It's good insurance for you as an end user, and for me as an engine builder. When something like this happens, I feel like I should try to cover it, well in this case that cost me a nice 660 bottom end I was planning to build. I don't need a 660, but I could have sold it.....
> 
> If I put that disclaimer in my sig, maybe I won't feel as responsible.
> 
> Chances are, I'll still kick in at least the damn labor.....I hate seeing saws broked.



Randy, the way you stand behind not just your work, but your customers, speaks volumes. I look forward to sending you some work. Your contribution to the knowledge base, and community hasn't gone unnoticed. Your very generous to share so much with this board. I have the utmost confidence in you, your work, and your word.


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## exSW (Dec 5, 2013)

First "oil" thread on here I ever liked.The thing I'm coming away with is saws run on the far edge of their performance shouldn't be running 50:1.I read this having just come in from doing a comp test on my 420.It's down to 165 from 180 when in was new in april.I've cut about 40 cord of hardwood with it since new.That includes felling,branching,limbing and bucking.Basically if the 16" bar could handle it I used it.I've run it to spec with Dolmar's oil.Yes it's tuned properly and the cat has been removed.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 5, 2013)

i broked my first mastermind saw at 50 to 1 stihl mix ,i have never had a failure since running the h1r 32 to 1 ,think i am on saw 5 being hopped up from him ,and yes Randy fixed it even though it was my screw up with the oil ,that saw is still running good


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Listen to this song.......it makes all oil threads null and void.


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## Lark-o (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Remember that we add compression......that raises both static, and dynamic cylinder pressures. That, in turn, adds a heavier load to the connecting rod and bearings. The oil is a protective film that acts as a layer of protection between the moving parts. *I think* that the layer is too thin with 50 - 100:1 mixes and is hammered out, allowing the parts to make contact, and create fictional heat.
> 
> Notice I said *I think*.......I don't have all the answers. That's why I enjoy these threads......it gives us a chance to compare notes, and do some brainstorming.


 
Randy you should get ahold of amsoil and show them the pictures. I talked to a guy from amsoil at snowmobile show a few years ago that wanted to hear about experiences good or bad with their oil. I had a sled blow a water pump gasket and it ate a lot of coolant and my engine guy and I gave praise to their oil for no damage to the pistons and cylinders during the event.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

I have no prove that the saw was tuned correctly...they would cry foul I'm sure.


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## Lark-o (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I have no prove that the saw was tuned correctly...they would cry foul I'm sure.


Maybe...maybe not.


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## boxygen (Dec 5, 2013)

Randy, you are being quite a stand up gentlman if you are absorbing a lot of parts and labor in this situation. But that is the type of guy that we all know you are. You have convinced me however that 32:1 is a good safe bet. The pictures are worth a thousand words, as they say. I alway mix 50:1 and then add some more oil for good measure. I've been using Husky XP oil for years mostly out of convenience of mixing 2.5 gallons at a time. I have been thinking about switching to syn for a little while now. This has galvanized it for me. Thanks for dipolmatically actually giving us an objective argument with facts (at least the side of the story we have) and conclusions to support the great oil debate. I'd hate to see that happen to my 394


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## morewood (Dec 5, 2013)

And I heard from the wilderness(Tennessee), use 32:1 in all the saws I have built for you(4 and counting), and so it shall be done. Simple.

Shea

PS-I need to talk to you after I get off work Randy, no it ain't about oil.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Lark-o said:


> Maybe...maybe not.



Who would I need to contact?


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## Jacob J. (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Ceramic bearings won't last under the loads these engines see. Not according to guys that know far more than I do.



Ceramic bearings in a worksaw are a waste of time...


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## Lark-o (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Who would I need to contact?


I'll see if I can get you a contact up there. If anything else it would be interesting to see what their take is on the subject. I'll warn you, They're a bunch of cheese heads.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Lark-o said:


> I'll see if I can get you a contact up there. If anything else it would be interesting to see what their take is on the subject. I'll warn you, They're a bunch of cheese heads.



I live in a world where drama ain't well tolerated......just sayin.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 5, 2013)

Damn that big end bearing is toast!

IMO, they is no reason not to run 32:1 in any 2 stroke equipment. I've ran 32:1 in my stock and ported chainsaws, cutoff-demo saws, leaf blower, weed wackers, and wacker packers for a few years. Everything at home and at work gets 32:1 from the same jug.....probably burn close to 5 gallons a week combined. Never a oil related failure.

I've burn't almost 3 Liters of H1R, and 1 liter of Maxima K2 at 32:1. They're both clean burning good oil IMO.


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## Fuzly (Dec 5, 2013)

GrassGuerilla said:


> True with nearly everything, no?



I have plugged this into many possible scenarios and you are 100% correct. To paraphrase Dean Wormer from Animal House "Black, dry, and crusty is no way to go through life son." Off to the store for more 2 stroke oil


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## Lark-o (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I live in a world where drama ain't well tolerated......just sayin.


 Im right there with ya on that one.


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## HD2010 (Dec 5, 2013)

GrassGuerilla said:


> The thing that's funny about this is I know quite a few grass guys use Sabre at 80:1 and even 100:1 in string trimmers and blowers in the heat of summer. Some have for a decade. I realize the stresses of a trimmer and a chainsaw are very different. But blowers come a bit closer with the constant load and prolonged WOT.
> 
> Is the power produced by this ported saw simply consuming the available lube? Was it tuned way lean too? I'm not sure I understand. As dry as the bottom end of that looks, it makes me wonder how other machines can run that mix seemingly without issue?


 
I think the important thing about this thread is high performance chainsaws need more oil than a stocker. We wanted everyone that didn't know this to be aware with proof. (If I am out of line Randy let me know.)

I have an 18 year old Echo trimmer with a good amount of use. Been running 80:1 from day one and not any problems. With this 066 bearing failure I have changed to 32:1 for everything. EVERYTHING.


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2013)

May I ask what octane fuel this was mixed with? Wouldnt pre-ignition contribute to such a failure? How high was the compression? What's the necessary octane level in such a beast? 

Not trying to point fingers. Trying to grasp what took place in there.


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## HD2010 (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> It's good insurance for you as an end user, and for me as an engine builder. When something like this happens, I feel like I should try to cover it, well in this case that cost me a nice 660 bottom end I was planning to build. I don't need a 660, but I could have sold it.....
> 
> If I put that disclaimer in my sig, maybe I won't feel as responsible.
> 
> Chances are, I'll still kick in at least the damn labor.....I hate seeing saws broked.


 
Randy, you are not obligated to pay for any of this. I am comfortable with what it takes to fix this saw. I do appreciate your loyalty to the customer and work.

Thanks again,
Troy


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## HD2010 (Dec 5, 2013)

92 or 93 some stations are different.


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## The Ripper (Dec 5, 2013)

Back Packs and Trimmers work loads are far different than a chainsaws work demands at 10,000 plus RPMs where oil ratio is life or death for a chainsaw in suppling optimum oil for lubrication,heat dissipation and keeping the mixture on the rich side,IMO. I never allowed myself to swallow that marketing advertising BS that any mixture ratio above 50to1 wouldn't cause any internal damage when power tools where operated in extreme working conditions,regardless of their performance status. MasterMind,thanks for that tip on the racing oil,gonna give it a try at 32 to1.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

GrassGuerilla said:


> May I ask what octane fuel this was mixed with? Wouldnt pre-ignition contribute to such a failure? How high was the compression? What's the necessary octane level in such a beast?
> 
> Not trying to point fingers. Trying to grasp what took place in there.



The 066s I do end up at 200 -210psi. They don't need any special fuel......just plenty of oil. Pre-ignition and detonation are very destructive, and it happens quick on a two-stroke. So far, I've never seen any detonation that I'm aware of. What I have seen when compression is too high, is the saw start acting as if it's running lean. What is happening that causes this above my pay grade......



HD2010 said:


> Randy, you are not obligated to pay for any of this. I am comfortable with what it takes to fix this saw. I do appreciate your loyalty to the customer and work.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Troy



A deal is a deal.......and I'm glad to do it. I didn't tell you to use any "special" blend or anything, so I feel like I should carry some of the repair.


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## ernurse (Dec 5, 2013)

Scamsoil strikes again. I run ultra at 40:1 but now im going out tomorrow to get BR H1R. Sux I have about 4 gals of ultra/100LL mixed up but I will run it in the snow blower. The 441 runs great Randy. Thanks for this informative thread.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

ernurse, there is nothing wrong with Amsoil. To the contrary, they make some of the finest lubricating products on the market. I'm sure their 2-stroke oil is no different. Now, as to their marketing.... I don't know what they're smoking, lol. Randy is dead right on the need for more oil. I recommend that all of my customers run at least 32:1, no less than 40:1, of a full-synthetic oil. I use Belray H1-R and Bailey's Full Synthetic myself. Both are fantastic products. 

Good on ya Randy for stepping up and helping out...as you always do


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## Philip Wheelock (Dec 5, 2013)

I can see where M-tronic/Autotune would come in handy here. No re-tuning. For my manual carb saws, I'm guessing that a 1/4 turn more (CCW) on the H screw from 50:1 tuning w/Stihl Ultra would be a good place to start when going to 40:1 w/ H1R on my stock saws? Got a Tiny Tach, which seems accurate enough. Another question: does Belray H1R contain a fuel stabilizer? Thanks.


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## The Ripper (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> The 066s I do end up at 200 -210psi. They don't need any special fuel......just plenty of oil. Pre-ignition and detonation are very destructive, and it happens quick on a two-stroke. So far, I've never seen any detonation that I'm aware of. What I have seen when compression is too high, is the saw start acting as if it's running lean. What is happening that causes this above my pay grade......
> 
> Randy,do you suppose with the extra amount of heat these performance saws are producing,even stock saws when pushed harder than normal usage,that some of the oil is being vaporized at a higher level or more oil is needed to help balance out the dissipation due the extra heat build up? Just throwing this out there.
> 
> ...


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

The Ripper said:


> Randy,do you suppose with the extra amount of heat these performance saws are producing,even stock saws when pushed harder than normal usage,that some of the oil is being vaporized at a higher level or more oil is needed to help balance out the dissipation due the extra heat build up? Just throwing this out there.



I'm not sure about what happens inside these engines. The more I learn the less I know.....


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 5, 2013)

I think the ratio may be more important than the oil brand itself. I'm sure Amsoil is a good oil at 32-40:1... The same with all the other chainsaw oils too, no higher than 40:1. 32 for me .


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## burnses (Dec 5, 2013)

I think the head broke off the screw holding the muffler to the cylinder as the left imprint from the screw looks to have carbon on it...The answer must be at the end of the post but haven't been there yet!

jim (sap can)


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## RedFir Down (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not sure about what happens inside these engines. The more I learn the less I know.....


I find this statement very true myself!!!
Thanks Randy for sharing your insight on using aftermarket cranks also.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

burnses said:


> I think the head broke off the screw holding the muffler to the cylinder as the left imprint from the screw looks to have carbon on it...The answer must be at the end of the post but haven't been there yet!
> 
> jim (sap can)



Keep reading Jim......


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## burnses (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Keep reading Jim......


 I know I did.....have to get back to work tonight however does shed some light on how good lead is as a lubricant...but can't argue the point of enough oil in the fuel....used to run 50-1 but going more oil lately.

jim out


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## lone wolf (Dec 5, 2013)

Looks like the rod bearing fell apart that is a no brainer, question is exactly why! Was it due to improper lubrication, too much play from a previous loose bore where it rocked and then a new piston put in and then broke?


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## Venomvpr900 (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Another pics that was pretty telling to me.




Wow a lot of talk on this since yesterday. Left bolt came out muffler? Is pretty dark compared to right side? Answer may be in the next pages. Haven't been on since last night


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## Venomvpr900 (Dec 5, 2013)

I was wrong.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

Randy, do you think the smaller rod bearing on the early 066 could have been a factor? Also, IIRC, there was a crank change even within the old metal flywheel saws. I believe the size of the big end rod bearing was increased. I forget if it was made even bigger when the poly flywheel came out. If you've done numerous other metal flywheel saws, that even further confirms your findings.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Even the pipe saw that I built is still alive.....plus all the other 064s.....


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 5, 2013)

maybe everyone with a mastermind saw should try 80 to one to see if that was the problem


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

I'll pass, lol.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> maybe everyone with a mastermind saw should try 80 to one to see if that was the problem



Dammit Brian, hush.


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## HD2010 (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> maybe everyone with a mastermind saw should try 80 to one to see if that was the problem


 
Let's just assume it was.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 5, 2013)

Philip Wheelock said:


> I can see where M-tronic/Autotune would come in handy here. No re-tuning. For my manual carb saws, I'm guessing that a 1/4 turn more (CCW) on the H screw from 50:1 tuning w/Stihl Ultra would be a good place to start when going to 40:1 w/ H1R on my stock saws? Got a Tiny Tach, which seems accurate enough. Another question: does Belray H1R contain a fuel stabilizer? Thanks.


Bel ray does not appear to have a stabilizer. Going from 50 to 40 will require a small richening of the carb, but I never feel comfortable telling people how much to turn a screw.

Playing devils advocate: belray smells terrible and is unpleasant for me to use on a calm day. I would bet that any quality oil at 40 or more will lubricate properly


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 5, 2013)

HD2010 said:


> Let's just assume it was.


was just giving the monkey a hard time


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

I can't smell the Belray.....I've heard several guys say it stinks. I think Klotz smells terrible.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> was just giving the monkey a hard time




But I like it. 

Dad told me to never wrestle with a pig......we'll both get filthy, but the pig likes it.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I can't smell the Belray.....I've heard several guys say it stinks. I think Klotz smells terrible.



the only people i have heard complain about the smell are the ones running those filthy Huskies


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## HD2010 (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> was just giving the monkey a hard time


 
I know.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> the only people i have heard complain about the smell are the ones running those filthy Huskies


I'm sure glad mine aren't filthy OK, so they are a little dirty. I still haven't cleaned them up since I used them several weeks ago!


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Bel ray does not appear to have a stabilizer. Going from 50 to 40 will require a small richening of the carb, but I never feel comfortable telling people how much to turn a screw.
> 
> Playing devils advocate: belray smells terrible and is unpleasant for me to use on a calm day. I would bet that any quality oil at 40 or more will lubricate properly



The Bel-Ray does have a bit of a smell to it. I don't notice it with chainsaws as bad, but get that stuff in a cutoff-demo saw down in a ditch and it will choke ya to death! Ultra will choke ya up too but it's good oil. The Maxima K2 isn't near as bad on the smell in my little opinion .

I agree on the 40:1 or more too. We run orange bottle stihl oil for years and years at 40:1 and had good luck too.


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## mainewoods (Dec 5, 2013)

Any suggestions as to how much the carb needs be richened. Seems to me that creating a leaner condition with 32:1 could be just as deadly as too little oil, without some kind of carb adjustment. Don't think guessing is a very wise idea on my part. I value my ported 346 too much.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 5, 2013)

mainewoods said:


> Any suggestions as to how much the carb needs be richened?



Turn it ccw a half turn and see if it four strokes like it should out of the cut. If it 4 strokes in the cut go a little CW, if it doesn't 4 stroke a bunch at wot out of the cut go ccw until it does. I like mine to 4 stroke as soon as I'm off load


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## clemsonfor (Dec 5, 2013)

I use to always run husky oil as it was easy to get at Lowe's. I always mixed at 40:1 then ordered some Bailey's full syn oil and mixed my last 2 gallons @50:1 and after reading this thread and the respect I have developed for Randy and brad from lurking I am going back to 40:1 maybe even test some at 32:1.

Thanks for the thread

Sent from my C5155 using Tapatalk


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## Philip Wheelock (Dec 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Bel ray does not appear to have a stabilizer. Going from 50 to 40 will require a small richening of the carb, but I never feel comfortable telling people how much to turn a screw.
> 
> Playing devils advocate: belray smells terrible and is unpleasant for me to use on a calm day. I would bet that any quality oil at 40 or more will lubricate properly


Thanks for the info. Got enough Stihl Ultra to mix 32 gals. @ 40:1, but wasn't sure of my tuning skills until I spent some time with the tach today. Belray H1R is available locally and tends to be less expensive than Ultra.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

Has anyone ever tested how much 32:1 vs 50:1, for example, actually affects the tune? I suspect that it would be very little. I've not tested it though.


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## eiklj (Dec 5, 2013)

I think most oils taste the same no matter the ratio.


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## indiansprings (Dec 5, 2013)

I've always run mine at a minimum of 40:1 with Ultra, and never had an issue. Seeing on average a 180-200 saws a month going thru the shop, you can't believe how many user's half azz the mix, it's unbeliveable how thin the mix is in a majority of the saws. (No reference to the saw in the thread) Most folks just eyeball the amount of fuel they add to their jug, after buying the cheapest gas they can find. We have a big issue with gas from Casey's convienence stores, most test right at 14% ethanol and has a large amount of parafin in it, the parafin builds up on the inlet screen until it creates a lean condition, Germany figured that one out. It amazes me people will spend a ton on a good saw and then pinch pennies when feeding it. Brad hit the nail on the head, Amsoil prolly is good stuff, marketing is just nuts. I keep several test tubes on hand to show customers the quality of fuel they had in their saws, most are totally unaware if what they have done until you visualize it for them.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 5, 2013)

I just mixed up 4 gallons of Klotz, mostly just to see if I still hated it or not. 


Is this an oil thread?


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Sorta.....

I hate Klotz


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## indiansprings (Dec 5, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Has anyone ever tested how much 32:1 vs 50:1, for example, actually affects the tune? I suspect that it would be very little. I've not tested it though.



Brad, in my expierence, it has little effect on the tune, almost none, although I'm just going off tach readings, after mixing 50:1,40:1 and 32:1 and running it, dumping it and a new blend and firing up again, less than 150 rpm from 50 to 32:1, it's amazing what you try on a slow day. We did it with a old 025 that had 155 lbs of compression.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

That's what I expected. For all intents and purposes then, you don't need to even consider it. Thanks for the quick feedback


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 5, 2013)

I totally agree with 40-1 or richer, I been doing that for over 20 years. but what can y'all tell us about the synthetic oils? I don't think it matters on brand long as it ain;t some cheap stuff. how is synthetic better than regular?


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

Generally, it burns cleaner, leading to fewer carbon deposits in the exhaust port, cylinder head, and piston crown. It's also simply a better lubricant, in most cases.


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## indiansprings (Dec 5, 2013)

Can't speak for other brands, but the difference between Stihl Ultra (synthetic) and Stihl orange bottle (dino) is Ultra has 20% more lubricants, 40% more detergent and a corrosion inhibitor to protect the brass in the carby. Nothing but synthetic for mine, no cycle shops for 30-40 miles so Ultra it is.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 5, 2013)

does it have stabilizers like the stihl orange bottle? what y'all sayin so far makes sense. I have had such good luck with the orange bottle it hard to change, I have two of the early 044s and they good as new after used commercial since new. I realize gas has changed.


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## clemsonfor (Dec 5, 2013)

Left off Terry but I can't edit so oh well. Last but not least.

Sent from my C5155 using Tapatalk


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

Did I mention that I use Belray H1R? opcorn:


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2013)

Great stuff and readily available. I can buy small containers locally, or easily order larger ones online.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 5, 2013)

yes you did Randy. I haven't forgotten you sir, just been hectic here.


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## indiansprings (Dec 5, 2013)

Would sure give it a try if I could buy it off the shelf locally, what's a good source for the Belray, Randy? Any site sponsors peddle it?


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## wigglesworth (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Sorta.....
> 
> I hate Klotz


 I did too last time I tried it. But I had a quart laying around....


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2013)

indiansprings said:


> Would sure give it a try if I could buy it off the shelf locally, what's a good source for the Belray, Randy? Any site sponsors peddle it?



This is where I get it. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEL-RAY-H1-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item53fe3b2d7a&vxp=mtr


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## indiansprings (Dec 5, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> This is where I get it.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEL-RAY-H1-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item53fe3b2d7a&vxp=mtr


You should just add a 6 pack with every saw you do, just tack on the price, get em hooked on it right off the bat, and it would make sure the initial usage would at least have the good stuff.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 5, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Has anyone ever tested how much 32:1 vs 50:1, for example, actually affects the tune? I suspect that it would be very little. I've not tested it though.




i am skeered of 50 to 1 now ,this saw still had 225 psi with this piston and still started and cut wood ok ,must have cold siezed at one time is all i can think of


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## trophyhunter (Dec 5, 2013)

indiansprings said:


> Brad, in my expierence, it has little effect on the tune, almost none, although I'm just going off tach readings, after mixing 50:1,40:1 and 32:1 and running it, dumping it and a new blend and firing up again, less than 150 rpm from 50 to 32:1, it's amazing what you try on a slow day. We did it with a old 025 that had 155 lbs of compression.



I conducted a similar comparison this week, I find a small increase on the high side was needed using 32:1 mix (about 1/8 of a turn open) to get back to the sweet spot 50:1 was running well at. This thread is an eye opener, well done guys!


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## shootingarts (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm just now getting around to looking at the thread. I have read all about the oil and such however I think a few things should be pointed out. As soon as I saw the piston pictures I immediately thought the same thing I did every time I saw a race engine looking like that in the old days, "been a little monkey with a sledgehammer in there!" Well then I look over at Randy's avatar . . .
Hmmmmmmmmmm

OK, I couldn't resist stepping through a door that wide open!   

What I really wanted to know was what national chains or people that are likely to be here in Louisiana stock the Belray H1R? I need to lock into one brand of oil and stay with it. I happen to have a pretty big Polaris dealer nearby, never actually been in there. Would they have some or an oil of the same quality ratings? Smarting from an e-bay purchase right now but I did know about the shipping upfront. $12.50 for the item, $12.00 to ship and it was a small item! Scart to find out what they charge for shipping oil.

Edit: Just found the shipping charge from the vender you provided a link to. Free shipping, always nice!

Hu


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## nixon (Dec 6, 2013)

Interesting thread ! Been doing 40-1 stihl ultra . Looks like 32-1 will be my next mix . 
I use nonethanol gas , but I do have a question about HR1 . What is it that makes it incompatible with etanol gas ?


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## tlandrum (Dec 6, 2013)

nothing wrong with stihl ultra at 32:1 -40:1


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## shootingarts (Dec 6, 2013)

nixon said:


> Interesting thread ! Been doing 40-1 stihl ultra . Looks like 32-1 will be my next mix .
> I use nonethanol gas , but I do have a question about HR1 . What is it that makes it incompatible with etanol gas ?



I have an inquiry in to Bel-Ray right now that may shed some light on this. H1R is a 100% ester based oil. Pretty sure that the other "synthetic" Bel-Ray oils are going to turn out to be highly refined mineral oil which can also be labeled synthetic.

If you look at the "Sir Tech" FAQ type area about halfway or so down page four somebody asks what two cycle oil will mix with the E-85 and methanol. According to Sir Tech none of the Bel-Ray oils will mix with E-85 but they also say that all of their two cycle oils will mix with 10% ethanol. They don't exclude the H1R in that answer.

Hu


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## nk14zp (Dec 6, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> maybe everyone with a mastermind saw should try 80 to one to see if that was the problem


Send me one of yours and I might.


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## BKrusher (Dec 6, 2013)

Funny I posted a reply to a thread about a week ago saying I learned the 32:1 was a good idea and its easy to mix from Randy and somebody here labeled it "dumb"......oh well


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 6, 2013)

i have not read the bottles ,will the stihl ultra mix with the h1r ?is it the same base ?,i know the castor wont mix with some others like the 927 maxima i used to run


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## Agrarian (Dec 6, 2013)

Have always run Husky's oil @ 40:1 and my '94 262xp cylinder looks almost new. I'd rather breathe 40:1 than 32:1. Used to use 30:1 on the old lombard with standard 30W motor oil - that thing is still run-able.


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## redoakneck (Dec 6, 2013)

fictional heat is no problem, frictional heat is the rub.

Bored, stuck at work with all this snow. Is a high compression saw that seems to idle lean a problem??? Should one richen it up a tad or is it too late???

As Lakeside said, saws should idle a little high, but a lean sounding idle/high is a problem?


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## Ilmater (Dec 6, 2013)

This is what will happen a lot if they replace E-10 with E-15 and people use it in their saws, or any 2 stroke engine for that matter.


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

redoakneck said:


> fictional heat is no problem, frictional heat is the rub.
> 
> Bored, stuck at work with all this snow. Is a high compression saw that seems to idle lean a problem??? Should one richen it up a tad or is it too late???
> 
> As Lakeside said, saws should idle a little high, but a lean sounding idle/high is a problem?



A lean low side normally makes for a saw that comes off rpm back to idle slowly......with a tinny sound. I like em fat and sassy...


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## redoakneck (Dec 6, 2013)

Idles down fine, not like when it is low on fuel. It is 390xp with 210psi compression, runs well but does seem to race just a hair at idle. I will fatten it up. Was cranking 14,500 rpm when I got it and I left it that way, it is ported. 

That one and the ported 346xp make a great 2 saw plan.

....oh yeah, back to the thread, I run 32:1 H1R and I do not notice any odor. Stihl ultra smells bad to me. E-free for me also.


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## Frank Boyer (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've never had one of those Stihl bolts come loose. I love the locking teeth on the back of em.....sure wish Huskys had em.


I was looking at one bolt hole very shiny and one covered in carbon. Separate issue??


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2013)

If you're looking for options, consider the following. They are all full synthetic, ester based oils. I'm sure there are more.

Belray H1-R
Maxima K2
Klotz R-50
Motul 800 2T


Ilmater said:


> This is what will happen a lot if they replace E-10 with E-15 and people use it in their saws, or any 2 stroke engine for that matter.


E15 is not good, but it's not going to cause crank failures.


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

Frank Boyer said:


> I was looking at one bolt hole very shiny and one covered in carbon. Separate issue??



Holding the muffler in my hand. They are both shiny with teeth marks. It must have just been the camera angle or????


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

Sup Brad? Ready for Christmas?


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Sup Brad? Ready for Christmas?


Hey Randy. I sure am. I'm ready for the week off anyway Getting any snow or ice down that way? We're getting about 1"/hour right now. It's really coming down. You keeping the shop nice and toasty?


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

It's suppose to change to snow or ice later.......I'm not looking forward to that. 

68° in here right now......life is good.


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## mdavlee (Dec 6, 2013)

Here's the bottom of the 9010 piston. It's not been ran since Thanksgiving or the day after. It was ran with klotz R50 at 32:1.


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## Eccentric (Dec 6, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> If you're looking for options, consider the following. They are all full synthetic, ester based oils. I'm sure there are more.
> 
> Belray H1-R
> Maxima K2
> ...



Those are all good oils. I'd add Redline 2-Stroke Racing Synthetic to that list.



> E15 is not good, but it's not going to cause crank failures.



Not from the E15 itself........................................but on saws that are left to sit for a while after running E15 there can be corrosion (rust) in the bearings and on the machined crank surfaces and rings. Ethanol is hydroscopic. That rust can cause trouble when the saws are brought back out of hibernation. Then there's the fuel system issues (from ethanol.........especially with equipment that sits for long periods) that have been talked to death here.


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2013)

68?! Wow. It was in the 60s early yesterday morning. It's now 28° and will get down to 14° tonight. Our highs will be below freezing for the next week, with several nights in the single digits, and Wednesday night down to 1°. I'm not a fan of the cold, but I LOVE snow!


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Here's the bottom of the 9010 piston. It's not been ran since Thanksgiving or the day after. It was ran with klotz R50 at 32:1


R50 is a fantastic lubricant, but it runs a little dirtier than some of the other options.


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## mdavlee (Dec 6, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> R50 is a fantastic lubricant, but it runs a little dirtier than some of the other options.



I had never ran it before so I figured I would get a quart when I was ordering K2 to try it out. I like it just fine and it's not too bad on carbon build up in the saws so far.


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2013)

I found that it left a little more buildup on the piston crown, but nothing problematic.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 6, 2013)

Brad, Randy, Mike, Terry, anybody who is inside lots of saws. Is there a commonly used oil that when mixed at 40:1, you guys see things inside the saw that don't look good? If somebody wanted to save money on oil is there a brand you recommend steering clear of? I'm not making a funny, just curious


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## nmurph (Dec 6, 2013)

redoakneck said:


> fictional heat is no problem, frictional heat is the rub.
> 
> Bored, stuck at work with all this snow. Is a high compression saw that seems to idle lean a problem??? Should one richen it up a tad or is it too late???
> 
> As Lakeside said, saws should idle a little high, but a lean sounding idle/high is a problem?


 
Don't you have a dog to neuter?


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## nmurph (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> It's suppose to change to snow or ice later.......I'm not looking forward to that.
> 
> 68° in here right now......life is good.


 
It was 86° today.


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## mdavlee (Dec 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Brad, Randy, Mike, Terry, anybody who is inside lots of saws. Is there a commonly used oil that when mixed at 40:1, you guys see things inside the saw that don't look good? If somebody wanted to save money on oil is there a brand you recommend steering clear of? I'm not making a funny, just curious



Not any in particular. Most of my saws are rebuilds from a catastrophic event for the saw. The 357 I tore apart today had a pretty dry crank case. I don't know how long it had been since it was ran last but the piston is smeared and the ring stuck in the groove. It cleaned up quickly and the carb settings weren't crazy so I suspect no oil or very little in the mix that was used the last time. What little I dumped out of the tank didn't feel very slick when I rubbed it between my fingers. 40:1 is almost 25% more oil than 50:1.


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Brad, Randy, Mike, Terry, anybody who is inside lots of saws. Is there a commonly used oil that when mixed at 40:1, you guys see things inside the saw that don't look good? If somebody wanted to save money on oil is there a brand you recommend steering clear of? I'm not making a funny, just curious


Husky oil seems to leave more deposits than most. Those deposits are thicker and kind of gummy.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 6, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Husky oil seems to leave more deposits than most. Those deposits are thicker and kind of gummy.


OK, gonna further prove my 2-stroke dumbness. Are the deposits in the combustion chamber? What problems do they cause?


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## mdavlee (Dec 6, 2013)

Can come loose and get smeared onto cylinder walls and rings.


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## Ilmater (Dec 6, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> If you're looking for options, consider the following. They are all full synthetic, ester based oils. I'm sure there are more.
> 
> Belray H1-R
> Maxima K2
> ...


And the legendary discontinued Mobil 1 Racing 2T, which I learned about in part thanks to this forum.



blsnelling said:


> E15 is not good, but it's not going to cause crank failures.


The thread title mentions an engine being "grenaded", it didn't specify "crank failure". E15 can cause a 2 stroke engine to grenade, I read a document or article where it destroyed an engine within 15 minutes IIRC (I can't find the source atm but when I do I will link it here). You have that much more of a hygroscopic solvent, and non-lubricant which would otherwise be oil and gas only.


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## Eccentric (Dec 6, 2013)

Carbon can gum up ring grooves, and can also form hard deposits in the exhaust port and piston crown edges that can score things.


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## walexa07 (Dec 6, 2013)

indiansprings said:


> Brad, in my expierence, it has little effect on the tune, almost none, although I'm just going off tach readings, after mixing 50:1,40:1 and 32:1 and running it, dumping it and a new blend and firing up again, less than 150 rpm from 50 to 32:1, it's amazing what you try on a slow day. We did it with a old 025 that had 155 lbs of compression.



My experience is a little different, but I believe the reasoning behind it is sound and agrees with your findings. Some oils such as Ultra and Woodland Pro Synthetic are fairly thin. I don't notice much change in the tune going from 50:1 to 32:1 with these oils. However, going from one of those thin oils at 50:1 to 32:1 with thicker oil such as Motul 800 there is enough of a difference that the saw really needs to be retuned - on the high side and the low side. Different saws are affected differently as well. My Poulan 4000 seems to run the same regardless for the most part. I'm sure if you ran a heavy oil at 16:1 it would probably need changed. My 346 and 361 (no longer have this saw) needed to be retuned after changing. The 346 was pretty much ok on the top end but was affected pretty good on the low needle.

Anyway, just my experience. I think going from 50:1 to 32:1 is worth verifying the tune is still good - whether by tach or ear.

Waylan


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## Erock (Dec 6, 2013)

you kept showing pics of the muffler. That baffle isn't in there which I found out why they put that there to begin with. The manifold screws could come loose and that helps prevent a screw from getting into the exhaust port and cylinder. That was my first thought for what happened. 

I worked on a saw that the person couldn't figure out what was rattling. I pulled the muffler and one of the torx screws had backed all the way out and was rattling in the can


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## redoakneck (Dec 6, 2013)

nope, too slow


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## redoakneck (Dec 6, 2013)

nmurph said:


> Don't you have a dog to neuter?



All done, just took a wizzz, and well, almost thought I could neuter myself with obama care killing me, and nothing to do, that scalpel sitting there all sharp, already got 4 kids. Dude wants 300 bucks for something I can do in 10 minutes......

A tree grows in Brooklyn???, glad I don't live in Brooklyn ..end of story with saws and boredom...


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

albert said:


> You could run any dino oil @ 32:1 and not tear up any bearings.


 
You would gunk up the lower case and muffler screen running dyno that thick, or even at 50:1 (I have). 100% synthetics are way better for not gunking up 2-smokes. I run 45:1 in all my saws, just because.

BTW: I have seen several 066s with AL flywheels blow the clutch side bearing of late, which is what happened to my first 066 Red Light (limited coil) model. The 066 bearings are supposed to be better than 044s, but I have found the opposite to be more common.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Bel ray does not appear to have a stabilizer. Going from 50 to 40 will require a small richening of the carb, but I never feel comfortable telling people how much to turn a screw.
> 
> Playing devils advocate: belray smells terrible and is unpleasant for me to use on a calm day. I would bet that any quality oil at 40 or more will lubricate properly


 
I did notice that when I switched from Castrol FB dyno oil to Mobil 1 synthetic many years ago that my saws all instantly revved higher. I had to retune them all. I have never blown a saw engine with the synthetic oil and premium E0 gas, or even with premium E10 gas for the short time that I was forced to use it. I run my saws a tad rich (limiters removed and 4-stroke at WOT).

I use ELF 100% synthetic motorcycle 2-smoke racing oil. It has a blue dye in it so you know it is mixed in the gas, and it does not have any funky smells. I used to use Mobile 1 synthetic but they stopped selling it in the states some years ago. Dunno why that was. They still sell it in Oz. Any full synthetic JASO FD oil should be fine, even at 50:1, IMO. Running 80:1 is really pushing it, AO or not. I never ran any of the 100:1 oil in my saws. I also use Sta-Bil red to keep the octane high in my gas. Low octane (regular or old gas) in a higher compression modified saw is likely to cause pre-ignition. It may not cause engine failure, but it may cause the piston to tilt a tad one way or the other and cause piston scuffing and cylinder scoring.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Has anyone ever tested how much 32:1 vs 50:1, for example, actually affects the tune? I suspect that it would be very little. I've not tested it though.


 
I have not tested the different mix ratios, but 100% dyno vs. 100% synthetic, both at 50:1 the revs went up noticeably running with synthetic.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

BKrusher said:


> Funny I posted a reply to a thread about a week ago saying I learned the 32:1 was a good idea and its easy to mix from Randy and somebody here labeled it "dumb"......oh well


 
Odd. Whilst reading through this thread and posting here, they have been changing the feedback options in the right hand lower corner of posts. They removed all but the thumbs up and thumbs down. No more 'dumb'. All the other ratings listed in the user profile are gone now as well, useful, dumb, funny, and otherwise. So your "dumb" feedback is gone now.


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## zogger (Dec 6, 2013)

windthrown said:


> I did notice that when I switched from Castrol FB dyno oil to Mobil 1 synthetic many years ago that my saws all instantly revved higher. I had to retune them all. I have never blown a saw engine with the synthetic oil and premium E0 gas, or even with premium E10 gas for the short time that I was forced to use it. I run my saws a tad rich (limiters removed and 4-stroke at WOT).
> 
> I use ELF 100% synthetic motorcycle 2-smoke racing oil. It has a blue dye in it so you know it is mixed in the gas, and it does not have any funky smells. I used to use Mobile 1 synthetic but they stopped selling it in the states some years ago. Dunno why that was. They still sell it in Oz. Any full synthetic JASO FD oil should be fine, even at 50:1, IMO. Running 80:1 is really pushing it, AO or not. I never ran any of the 100:1 oil in my saws. I also use Sta-Bil red to keep the octane high in my gas. Low octane (regular or old gas) in a higher compression modified saw is likely to cause pre-ignition. It may not cause engine failure, but it may cause the piston to tilt a tad one way or the other and cause piston scuffing and cylinder scoring.




That's interesting about the piston tilt with preignition, hadn't heard that before. thanks. 

I was wondering about similar in the "one ring or two rings" various threads, my thinking being, two rings is more friction, but might help keep the piston centered better.


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## Ilmater (Dec 6, 2013)

windthrown said:


> I did notice that when I switched from Castrol FB dyno oil to Mobil 1 synthetic many years ago that my saws all instantly revved higher. I had to retune them all. I have never blown a saw engine with the synthetic oil and premium E0 gas, or even with premium E10 gas for the short time that I was forced to use it. I run my saws a tad rich (limiters removed and 4-stroke at WOT).
> 
> I use ELF 100% synthetic motorcycle 2-smoke racing oil. It has a blue dye in it so you know it is mixed in the gas, and it does not have any funky smells. I used to use Mobile 1 synthetic but they stopped selling it in the states some years ago. Dunno why that was. They still sell it in Oz. Any full synthetic JASO FD oil should be fine, even at 50:1, IMO. Running 80:1 is really pushing it, AO or not. I never ran any of the 100:1 oil in my saws. I also use Sta-Bil red to keep the octane high in my gas. Low octane (regular or old gas) in a higher compression modified saw is likely to cause pre-ignition. It may not cause engine failure, but it may cause the piston to tilt a tad one way or the other and cause piston scuffing and cylinder scoring.


From what I gather, Mobil stopped manufacturing it in the states because the 2 stroke bike manufacturers started changing over to making only 4 strokes, so Mobil figured that the market for that oil would be in far less demand (imo they were wrong, because those that used it for every other application would have still had high demand, as more people found out how good it was).


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## gsrsol84mm (Dec 6, 2013)

I have been alternating between Amsoil Sabre @ 40:1 and Echo Red Armor @ 40:1 in my ported saws. I use non ethanol 89 gas.

Amsoil is the most cost effective at $10 a quart. Echo red armor was recommended by the mechanic at a local 2 stroke dealer that works on a ton of 2 stroke saws, blowers, etc. He says the
Echo red armor is his favorite and feels it keeps the engines much cleaner. He notices a difference just after a few tanks.

Is there any reason to switch oil or mix ratio ? 

I do use a ratio rite mixing cup to make sure I am at 40:1


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

gsrsol84mm said:


> I have been alternating between Amsoil Sabre @ 40:1 and Echo Red Armor @ 40:1 in my ported saws. I use non ethanol 89 gas.
> 
> Amsoil is the most cost effective at $10 a quart. Echo red armor was recommended by the mechanic at a local 2 stroke dealer that works on a ton of 2 stroke saws, blowers, etc. He says the
> Echo red armor is his favorite and feels it keeps the engines much cleaner. He notices a difference just after a few tanks.
> ...



I think you'll be fine. 40:1 doesn't worry be at all. 50:1 seems insane though.


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## gsrsol84mm (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I think you'll be fine. 40:1 doesn't worry be at all. 50:1 seems insane though.



Thanks, I will sleep better tonight. I do have one of your ported Stihl 261 saws that I picked up like new from another AS member and it is a great running saw.


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## BKrusher (Dec 6, 2013)

windthrown said:


> Odd. Whilst reading through this thread and posting here, they have been changing the feedback options in the right hand lower corner of posts. They removed all but the thumbs up and thumbs down. No more 'dumb'. All the other ratings listed in the user profile are gone now as well, useful, dumb, funny, and otherwise. So your "dumb" feedback is gone now.


Wasn't my intent...lol...I just noticed that too. Dumb things are posted all the time... me included in this. I couldn't understand why posting what a well respected builder taught me would be dumb though..but to each his own.


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## cobey (Dec 6, 2013)

what oil is in true fuel? I have been running 40:1 truefuel (except on big jobs) I re modded one of the echos muffler
and there was a little sticky deposite in the exhaust, didnt pull any other mufflers but all the saws seem to run real good
on this stuff. the echos seem weak on 32:1, the 500evl was real bad. I put 50:1 true fuel in it and it woke up alot.
and yes I always retune for the fuel I use  around here all the gas has ethanol


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

BKrusher said:


> Wasn't my intent...lol...I just noticed that too. Dumb things are posted all the time... me included in this. I couldn't understand why posting what a well respected builder taught me would be dumb though..but to each his own.




Well respected? Welp, looks like I've got a few folks fooled.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Well respected? Welp, looks like I've got a few folks fooled.


 
Its your avatar.

Respect the Model 1911!  And a chimp in a suit.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

zogger said:


> That's interesting about the piston tilt with preignition, hadn't heard that before. thanks.
> 
> I was wondering about similar in the "one ring or two rings" various threads, my thinking being, two rings is more friction, but might help keep the piston centered better.


 
Yah, uneven burning is an issue the higher the compression becomes (from pre ignition) or the lower the octane (the 'bad gas' effect). Most saws are designed to run on much higher octane European gas, and then re-tuned to run on crappy US mid-grade. Also gas octane drops fast once it leaves the refinery. Pump listed octane ratings in the US are refinery tested + pump tested divided by two. The actual pump mid-grade octane is likely to be lower than 89, and it will fall a lot more sitting in a small gas can in your garage unless it is treated. That is why I use premium gas. I also use Sta-Bil red to keep the octane from going any lower and it keeps the gas fresh for a year.

I favor 2 rings myself, and I also favor stiffer rings for higher compression. I know many prefer one ring and softer rings for less friction. For older stock saws, I notice much better performance after putting stiffer Caber rings in them. I doubt that 2 rings offer any greater resistance to piston tilt and scuffing, as they are fully compressed at TDC and they are near the top of the piston where ring leverage would be minimal.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

Oh yah, and if I was modding saws with really high compression, I would also insist that the buyers use premium gas in them to prevent pre-ignition and flaring. Mid-grade ain't gonna cut it. Stock saws have what, about 175# compression? If MM saws are over 210#, that is a gain of 20%. Also if you are advancing the timing several degrees, like on the MM modded 461, you need a more even burning fuel. Also adding premix oil lowers the gas octane, and adding more oil will lower it even more.


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2013)

I've yet to see detonation damage.


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## BKrusher (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Well respected? Welp, looks like I've got a few folks fooled.


"Well respected builder"....maybe not well respected in general Randy......


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## Eccentric (Dec 6, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've yet to see detonation damage.



A few years ago, somebody here posted pics of detonation damage in a saw. Was used for milling IIRC. I've seen it in 2-stroke motorcycles, but not saws.


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## windthrown (Dec 6, 2013)

BKrusher said:


> "Well respected builder"....maybe not well respected in general Randy......


 
_General _Randy??? <salute!> click...


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## windthrown (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've yet to see detonation damage.


 
I am surprised with that. No piston scuffing or cylinder scoring? Of course you are lowering the squish so there is less room for flaring pressure, as opposed to a stock saw.

I would still use premium though.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

Didn't read the whole thread, but I saw where this was going in the first two pics. I've been beating this dead horse for the better part of ten years now, and the subject keeps coming up time and time again. I've posted pics, information from every corner of the 2 cycle lube industry. I even posted Q & A's involving head chemists that work for 2T oil manufactures, from Maxima and Fuchs Silkolene, all to no avail. Posted pics of a 441 that was ran on Amsoil @ 100:1 at least a dozen times, and people simply look the other way. 

The lawn forums have heavy Amsoil sponsorship and they pump that stuff up to be the greatest thing out there, so one needs to read between the lines. 

This isn't just an EPA issue. Manufactures have a baseline of durability. If something doesn't last long enough, that's bad for business, if it lasts too long it's bad fore business. 50:1 will allow stock saw to last just long enough, now port the engine and see what happens.

Andre'


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

cobey said:


> what oil is in true fuel? I have been running 40:1 truefuel (except on big jobs) I re modded one of the echos muffler
> and there was a little sticky deposite in the exhaust, didnt pull any other mufflers but all the saws seem to run real good
> on this stuff. the echos seem weak on 32:1, the 500evl was real bad. I put 50:1 true fuel in it and it woke up alot.
> and yes I always retune for the fuel I use  around here all the gas has ethanol



Most likely Motul. Oil in the muffler has a lot to do with the type of dispersant used in the oil, and likely the oils flash point. carb tuning obviously plays a part as well. Oil in the exhaust can isn't necessarily bad.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks for that pic Rogue60........Now I can say I've see detonation damage in a chainsaw.


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

I use regular pump gas with no additives even in modded saws. The gas is always fresher and it doesn't seem to hurt the performance. If some of the guys that's been modding saws longer than I've been alive say it's what they use with up to 230 lbs of compression that's good enough for me.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

87 octane is all I ever use.


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## shootingarts (Dec 7, 2013)

I'm not too sure that just running E-85 can't destroy a bottom end. Interesting claim by Bel-Ray that their two cycle oil mixes fine with 10% ethanol but will not mix with E-85. If that is literally true, having oil in suspension with 

Edit: Started this post last night and never got around to finishing it. Seems it was just hanging around and accidentally posted. Anyway, if what Bel-Ray states is literally true and their two-cycle oil won't mix with E-85 then oil in suspension instead of evenly mixed could lead to all kinds of grief including pure gassing an engine when using that mix. Of course it would seem possible to pure oil an engine too which might not do it any long term harm but will certainly lead to a lot of cussing!

Hu


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## 7sleeper (Dec 7, 2013)

As I've said here to many times I don't care what name is one the bottle as long as it is

*1. fullsynthetic for air cooled engines
2. fullfills the folowing norms API TC, JASO FC/FD, ISO L-EGD*

Then it's ok for me. The above norms dictate

*Specification after ISO-L-Norm (European norm)
Class => engine Performance
ISO-L-EGB (Global GB) => middle(= JASO FB)
ISO-L-EGC (Global GC) => middle and smokeless (= JASO FC)
ISO-L-EGD (Global GD) => high performance and smokeless (> JASO FD)

Specification after API-Norm (US norm)
Class => engine Performance
API-TA (TSC-1) => Mopeds
API-TB (TSC-2) => Motorscooters and Motorcycles
API-TC (TSC-3) => high performance engines
API-TD (TSC-4) => Outboardengines equivalent to NMMA TC-WII

Specification after JASO-Norm (Japanese norm)
Class => engine Performance
JASO (M345) FA => low
JASO (M345) FB => middle
JASO (M345) FC => middle and smokeless
JASO (M345) FD => high performance and smokeless*

Translated by me from the german wikipedia page. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmieröl

Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!

Randy sorry to derail your thread but I thought it was driffting off anyhow. 

7


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## shootingarts (Dec 7, 2013)

Just for grins, OK it's half the price too, I asked Bel-Ray a few questions about MC-1 and the difference between it and H1R. Most especially I asked them about the percentage of esters in the "full synthetic" MC-1 since Bel-Ray themselves point out that after highly refining it, mineral based oil is often called synthetic.

Granted only a couple business days involved but so far the silence has been deafening. On the plus side, I can buy Bel-Ray products only seven miles away. Generally, I have to drive 30-60 miles to buy anything but there is a large four wheeler business in the small town my mail comes from.

Still editing on this post, sorry! Seems to me that we are talking about two almost totally different things that are used for the same purposes, dino based two cycle oil and ester based. Seems likely that they have totally different burn properties. This is the kind of thing I want to learn about. Throw in the bean oil just for grins but use of it seems to be fading enough that it doesn't matter.

So, does mineral based oil raise or lower octane? Opinion seems to be it lowers it since it is reported to increase the danger of detonation. If so we are paying a high cost for oiling the bottom end running higher mixes of dino oil.

Does ester based oil raise or lower octane? Narry a clue. We can't judge a thing about ester based two cycle oil from the way dino based performs.

Randy, a question directed at you: Have you ran the dino based two cycle oil and 87 octane in saws with timing advanced and over 200 compression or just the ester based oil?

(now I'm editing the wrong post! "Sir, step away from the edit button . . . NOW!)

Hu


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've yet to see detonation damage.



What do ya think of this Randy? Its out of my personal 346......


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

BTW, That saw has been run on 32:1 H1R for a long time with shell 92 ethanol blend. I have no idea what caused it. When I went to put the piston stop in it to change the drive rim, I shined a light through the plug hole for the first time since I ported it, I was like WTF!?!?!? It looked worse through the plug hole, so I pulled the top for a closer look. Took some pictures and put it back together. The combustion chamber is spotless, just the exhaust side of the piston crown is pitted some.

Gonna change gas stations and see what happens.....


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

komatsuvarna said:


> BTW, That saw has been run on 32:1 H1R for a long time with shell 92 ethanol blend. I have no idea what caused it. When I went to put the piston stop in it to change the drive rim, I shined a light through the plug hole for the first time since I ported it, I was like WTF!?!?!? It looked worse through the plug hole, so I pulled the top for a closer look. Took some pictures and put it back together. The combustion chamber is spotless, just the exhaust side of the piston crown is pitted some.
> 
> Gonna change gas stations and see what happens.....


when you did the saw ,did you advance the timing on the flywheel at all ?


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> when you did the saw ,did you advance the timing on the flywheel at all ?



Nope, I never do it on the Huskys. The 346 still has the stock blue rev limited coil too. I tune it to about 13,800-14,000 and cut wood.

Also, squish is .024 and the compression is 190psi, so I know that's not the problem either.


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## Fire8 (Dec 7, 2013)

I made the switch to H1R after randy did my two saws and use that mix for everything else that runs mix the old man that built race saws back in the early 80's
All way mix at 32:1 he didn't trust the quality of the fuel he said if she blows it not because there wasn't enough oil


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

I'd be checking the bearings in that saw Durand......that looks like impact damage.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

I'd be checking the bearings in that saw Durand......that looks like impact damage.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

Just on the exhaust side, down to the ring land? The combustion chamber didn't have any marks at all, none.

I think I got this saw hot a couple months ago. I was using a 20'' 3/8s bar cutting a lot bigger wood than I should have been. I may or may not have got some bad gas, but I remember running the saw in a huge Ash and smelling the oil and thinking I better back off this thing a minute.....I dunno if that done it on not. I was actually flush cutting a stump for the stump grinder when that happened....I cut from both sides with a 20'' bar and then took the trackhoe and broke the stump off what was still holding, they was about a 4'' circle in the middle holding it if that tells how big it was. It was also close to 100* that day too....

I'm wrong plenty of times and may be again, but I can't help but think I got it hot that day and caused that. Could possibly be something wrong with the bearings too but this is a pretty low hour saw. Strange for sure though.

BTW, The mail ladie brought me something back from your shop today, thats nice! Thanks!


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

I like me some mail ladies....... 

I blowed the middle pic up......it looks like something was eating at it. But then, what will detonation do to one? 

It's another case of, the more I see, the less I really know.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I like me some mail ladies.......
> 
> I blowed the middle pic up......it looks like something was eating at it. But then, what will detonation do to one?
> 
> It's another case of, the more I see, the less I really know.



Oh I got a dandy mail ladie .

I agree, and I dunno. I'm gonna change a few things I do and run it some more and watch it, maybe I'll learn something from the ordeal.

Back to the original thread, I ported that saw in February this year. It has been run on nothing but 32:1 H1R since then, not sure on the tanks of fuel but I wore out a chain drive rim since porting. The combustion chamber had very little carbon that wiped right out with a cloth, and the piston had a little carbon buildup on it that is visible in the pictures above. Hooray 32:1 !!!!!


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

660 piston and cc after a couple gallons of maxima K2 and a couple of R50


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 7, 2013)

I'm a ditto on MM's opinion of that Komatsuvarna's slug 
looking like impact damage.
Seems like there are some scuffs or transfer spots on the skirt
that roughly correspond with the heavier deformations of the
crown edges.
-
I was looking for some info regarding detonation and combustion chamber, etc and found this:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html
Some pretty interesting reading in it.
the ign timing and exhaust temps was 'specialy interesting!

Gots me wanting to set up a test block for my leafblowers
just wish I didn't have neighbors so darn closeup now
can't run the noisy two cycles at night anymore 
and that's my most mentally productive time.
(was born at 9:45 pm, dangit )


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

Non of us are experts on the matter of detonation or piston erosion. However with experience and some knowledge we can make a guess. I've seen pistons look similar to both examples above.

Rogue's piston exhibits what I know to be classic detonation.

Komatsuvarns's saw I'm not sure about. To me it looks like the piston got too hot on the exhaust side, which means it was tuned too lean IMHO. Non of this has anything to do with the oil itself. 

I've talked about this and have brought the subject up before. In a work saw, how much do you really gain pushing compression passed say 180 psi for an example. Yes you will make a bit more power, but at what cost? Most of the old school saw builders will tell you a true production saw with lots of compression will not last long. A firewood guy that knows how to tune a saw likely won't have any issues.

There's a big learning curve here and I myself, has a long way to go.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

LegDeLimber said:


> I'm a ditto on MM's opinion of that Komatsuvarna's slug
> looking like impact damage.
> Seems like there are some scuffs or transfer spots on the skirt
> that roughly correspond with the heavier deformations of the
> ...



That little spot on the skirt was on there the day I bought it. They tuned it at the dealer, I brought it home and gave it a muffler mod and it was there then. They's no transfer spots.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

Andyshine77 said:


> Non of us are experts on the matter of detonation or piston erosion. However with experience and some knowledge we can make a guess. I've seen pistons look similar to both examples above.
> 
> Rogue's piston exhibits what I know to be classic detonation.
> 
> ...



I agree Andre. I'm fairly sure I didn't have that saw tuned to lean. It has the rev limited coil and I always just tune it to about 14,000 and go cutting. That one day I remember in particular, It was hot out side, high humidity, I was probably running a little too much bar and chain and probably over working the saw a little in big. That combined with the extra power and compression I fell is what done that. I know the saw got hot.......maybe it was on the verge of too lean for the conditions I was in. My back was hurting like hell and I wasn't carrying around a big ass saw .


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

I run the smallest saw I can, for as long as I can before grabbing something bigger myself.

In your pics it looks like I see a bit of a brown carbon like spot below the ring on the exhaust side of the piston. Am I seeing that correctly? If so this is a sign the saw was running on the edge. Sometimes in hotter ported saws that will happen even with proper tune, the engine simply can't dissipate heat fast enough.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 7, 2013)

Yes your seeing correctly.

HEY! I just thought of something else too! That saw had the factory Zama on it for awhile. On that same job it got to acting strange with the zama and I swapped it out for a HDA199 one evening after I got off work, and took it back the next day to work. It was acting like it was running out of fuel, wouldn't hold a tune, and wouldn't idle right, was out 2.25 rounds on the high side, so I put a new HDA199 on it and problem solved. That carb could have caused it to lean out in the cut I guess, and caused that..... That sounds more likely, I'm really not one to lean a saw out for all it's got.....not a work saw. I like'em fat!

I really need to put a black coil on it so I can hear the tune constantly I guess......


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

Sounds like you found your answer.. I'd check the tank vent as well to be safe, the 346's had a run of tanks that had improperly drilled vent holes, they would go lean @ WOT. I like the black coil's on the 346, they seem to handle the rpm's just fine. Saws like the 390 do fine with a stock blue limited coil, or a blue coil from a higher revving saw like the 346.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

I like to use the 372XT coil on the 390.....

13,500


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

On the 346s I messed with I drilled an extra small hole under the tank vent to let it vent more.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

don't some huskies have a vented fuel cap to resolve that problem ?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> don't some huskies have a vented fuel cap to resolve that problem ?



Not that I know of.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

I've heard of a vented gas cap......but never found one.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

I think Simon posted the part # a while back in his thread


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

*372 Issues*
If you don't mind spending a bit of money for a nice feature, buy a 503-8280-04 vented fuel cap.
Post by: Simonizer, Aug 24, 2012 in forum: Chainsaw


wow the search thing works fast now


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 7, 2013)

komatsuvarna said:


> That little spot on the skirt was on there the day I bought it. They tuned it at the dealer, I brought it home and gave it a muffler mod and it was there then. They's no transfer spots.



Ahh, Well it's not the first time jpeg compression 
and monocular diplopia have bit me in the as.. er... uhm "opinion".

This damned vision glitch makes trying to guide a burr tough now.
had to give up vernier scales for all dials a few years ago too.

Just bare with me if ya can fellows!!


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> *372 Issues*
> If you don't mind spending a bit of money for a nice feature, buy a 503-8280-04 vented fuel cap.
> Post by: Simonizer, Aug 24, 2012 in forum: Chainsaw
> 
> ...



I did a Google search and found it at parts tree too.


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## Cfaller (Dec 7, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> any problems with the h1r seperating from the fuel in cold weather ? i had dirt bike oils in the past that would ,i think it was 927 maxima



H1R mixed at 32:1 at -18 F.


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## albert (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> 87 octane is all I ever use.


 If you use 87, with no additives, I suspect you've had or will be seeing detonation damage.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

albert said:


> If you use 87, with no additives, I suspect you've had or will be seeing detonation damage.



Why?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2013)

Cfaller said:


> H1R mixed at 32:1 at -18 F.
> View attachment 321380



Separation is normally associated with castor oils, or oils with castor in them. Maxima castor 927 being one of such oils. http://www.maximausa.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=13


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## albert (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Why?


87 can cause damage on a stock saw under tough conditions. Add more compression, timing, heat, load and you increase the main things that cause it. Detonation harms more than piston tops. Do you spike your fuel or use it as it come from the pump?


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

I use Torco race fuel concentrate.


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

I've been using 87 with no additives in saws with 200 lbs of compression and none have shown any damage 5 gallons of mix later and one had at least 75 tanks thorugh it.


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## one.man.band (Dec 7, 2013)

Andyshine77 said:


> Separation is normally associated with castor oils, or oils with castor in them. Maxima castor 927 being one of such oils. http://www.maximausa.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=13



on the back of my bottle there are some cautions: "Can be mixed with pump or race gasoline. May separate at temperatures below 32F (2C) with some race gasses and AV gas with specific gravity of less than 0.735."

probably not a big deal for most everyone, because we run pump gas. race gas info can be had from the manufacturer to be sure, maybe for AV gas as well. have not seen anyone ever test race gas, even at the track. i have not noticed any separation in pump gas even at much lower temps than 32F. (7F actually).

looked at AV gas... spec. grav varies and probably should not be used w/castor unless you know the SG.

95% of race gasses are fine. (over 0.735 sg). (higher SG number means it burns slower).

-omb


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I've been using 87 with no additives in saws with 200 lbs of compression and none have shown any damage 5 gallons of mix later and one had at least 75 tanks thorugh it.




but you cheat by using a sharp chain


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

is there any downside to the 92 octain i buy and mix 32 to 1 ? besides it may not be as fresh as the 87 that gets bought more of ?


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## one.man.band (Dec 7, 2013)

curious.... were there any signs of preignition/detonation on the plugs?

-omb


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## shootingarts (Dec 7, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I've been using 87 with no additives in saws with 200 lbs of compression and none have shown any damage 5 gallons of mix later and one had at least 75 tanks thorugh it.



This is interesting because if my cyphering is right you are at about 12.5:1 compression. Pure 87 octane doesn't cut it with that kind of compression and high RPM engines. Some say that two cycle oil increases the risk of detonation. However octane is the measurement of where a fuel starts to detonate. If two cycle oil increases the risk of detonation then it would reduce octane and the more oil you added the more you reduce octane and increase the risk of detonation. You benefit from increased lubrication but at the cost of detonation and the material removed by detonation often winds up as spatter in the chamber and on the spark plug increasing the chances of pre-ignition.

Since these things aren't happening, it does seem that some two cycle oil boosts octane.

Hu


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

The 288 that had machine work was at 200 lbs and had 5 gallons of 87 through it with 927, k2, and R50. I checked the piston last week and it looked like it did when I put it together. It was used bucking and some milling using a whole tank of mix per cut.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

This is one of those things that we've kicked around for a few years now. And over the years the same things always come up. 

The shorter the stroke and higher the RPM, the shorter the dwell time. A short dwell time and flame front travel increases from tightened squish can prevent detonation without using a high octane fuel. 87 octane will make more power than a higher octane fuel as well, because the slower burning fuels don't have time to fully burn in the short dwell engines.......think about it.


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

Tree monkey is the one that got me thinking about it and trying the 87. I had ran some 110 in a few saws a long time ago and got nothing but red eyes. 93 isn't a big seller but there's lots of places that have e free 87 close to me.


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## one.man.band (Dec 7, 2013)

shootingarts said:


> This is interesting because if my cyphering is right you are at about 12.5:1 compression. Pure 87 octane doesn't cut it with that kind of compression and high RPM engines. ......
> Hu



static compression and dynamic compression are two different animals. at high rpm...there is much less charge to compress.


mdavlee....... that my friend is an unbelievably clean piston after thrashings like that!!!

-omb


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## mdavlee (Dec 7, 2013)

one.man.band said:


> static compression and dynamic compression are two different animals. at high rpm...there is much less charge to compress.
> 
> 
> mdavlee....... that my friend is an unbelievably clean piston after thrashings like that!!!
> ...



It was tuned richer than I would for normal wood cutting for milling. I think it's at 12.9k or so. The klotz left a little stuff in the combustion chamber but nothing on the piston top.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Tree monkey is the one that got me thinking about it and trying the 87. I had ran some 110 in a few saws a long time ago and got nothing but red eyes. 93 isn't a big seller but there's lots of places that have e free 87 close to me.




Here is a great article to read......

The part about chamber design is very thought provoking. 

http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html


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## tallfarmboy (Dec 7, 2013)

Randy, by chance was there any damage to the case? The Flat Top 066 that I bought this summer at an auction had a bad big end bearing on the rod/crank.... The bearing pieces had knocked a dent in the magnesium underneath the counterweights... It wasn't a hole, but it COULD have been if the bearing pieces had hit the case the wrong way under the crank.
I put a little JB weld on the "bump" to prevent any future issues....

Just some food for thought. Take care,

TFB


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

We won't know for sure till it has been split and check over well.


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## shootingarts (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here is a great article to read......
> 
> The part about chamber design is very thought provoking.
> 
> http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html




Read it earlier. Some things he is right about, some wrong, plus he makes generalizations that don't hold universally true which leaves me a little skeptical about the things he says that I don't know if are right or wrong. Ultimately I don't know how much of what he is saying can be applied to a single cylinder two cycle engine either. The fast burn chamber is interesting but as you know it is only a small component of a system that starts at the air intake and ends where the exhaust dumps. Plus there is considerably more sophisticated computerization to the Caddy's fuel and fire control system. Worth a look but chances are the devil is in the details when trying to export the technology to a chainsaw.

Some old technology that might be interesting in a chainsaw might be dual plugs or multiple spark systems. If faster burn could be obtained then it would make two cycle engines much more efficient. Of course every manufacturer of two cycle engines already knows this and most have millions to throw at R&D. I know they have strato engines now but I got the impression it wasn't the old stratified chamber deal. That created better efficiency way back when. A pain to mass produce too but it wouldn't be that big of a deal at all when considering the time spent porting anyway.

About short dwell times: The old indy cars from four or five decades ago sat there and vibrated. 14000 RPM about like a chainsaw, large bore close to four inches, less than one inch stroke. They ran on methanol which is higher octane than any gas I know of. I still suspect that being able to run 87 octane gas has more to do with what is mixed with it than a short dwell time.

One thing I do wonder about is the article's claim of a universal optimum of peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. I suspect the number isn't right for a single cylinder two cycle but if the pressure curve could be optimized for chainsaws it is possible that one ignition timing and one peak pressure degree could work for pretty much all saws. Would simplify things a bunch then you would "only" have to figure out how to tune everything on the engine to deliver the most pressure possible for the longest time. Piece of cake, right? The theory is always so simple!

Just had a thought how to pick up a two cycle engine by it's own bootstraps, pretty sure it won't work though!

Hu


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

ok then why does my atv ,250cc 2 stroke with 200 psi detonate real bad with 87 octain ,and my 70cc chainsaw with 200 psi wont ? they both spin a chain opcorn:


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## shootingarts (Dec 7, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> ok then why does my atv ,250cc 2 stroke with 200 psi detonate real bad with 87 octain ,and my 70cc chainsaw with 200 psi wont ? they both spin a chain opcorn:





I'm doing my level best to not stir the pot in threads I am in. Sure glad somebody is here to take up my slack!

Hu


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

The "fast burn" we are hoping to see in a chainsaw engine's combustion chamber is what we are doing with the wider squish band and tighter squish area. The thinking is that with the machining process we can increase squish velocity, reduce chamber volume, have higher (and therefore faster burning) compression ratios, and still utilize a flat top piston. It has been discussed that this could make the engine more resistant to detonation by design.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

shootingarts said:


> I'm doing my level best to not stir the pot in threads I am in. Sure glad somebody is here to take up my slack!
> 
> Hu



I'm enjoying the discussion.....


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 7, 2013)

shootingarts said:


> I'm doing my level best to not stir the pot in threads I am in. Sure glad somebody is here to take up my slack!
> 
> Hu


i think the answer is cause i'm a fatazz and the engine can't take it ,but i would like a pro opinion


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## exSW (Dec 7, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> ok then why does my atv ,250cc 2 stroke with 200 psi detonate real bad with 87 octain ,and my 70cc chainsaw with 200 psi wont ? they both spin a chain opcorn:


250 cc vs 70cc and timing?Chainsaws are made to run flat out your atv has a powerband that matchs up with your gears.


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## trophyhunter (Dec 7, 2013)

Shouldn't it read "Saws used at mix ratios _HIGHER_ than 40:1 will not be covered by Mastermind Worksaws" just to CYA? The way it reads otherwise 32:1 would be a deal breaker and 50:1 would be fair game.


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

Less oil than 40:1 is what it means.....


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## shootingarts (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> The "fast burn" we are hoping to see in a chainsaw engine's combustion chamber is what we are doing with the wider squish band and tighter squish area. The thinking is that with the machining process we can increase squish velocity, reduce chamber volume, have higher (and therefore faster burning) compression ratios, and still utilize a flat top piston. It has been discussed that this could make the engine more resistant to detonation by design.




Randy,

What you are talking about here is rock solid of course. Getting a little trickier but you might find the cost of a custom piston for one or two bores and engines isn't out of reach. Flat tops do simplify things but as you continue to take the changes to extremes you are going to almost have to have a custom jug cast or go to a custom piston. Back when the world was young I could have a custom piston made for only 30-50% cost over a standard configuration from one of the high performance folks. Before you ask, no I don't remember which one. I am talking early seventies, far too many years and beers ago! That was only having eight pistons made though, not a big run.

One thing that catches my eye on a chainsaw is the connecting rod. Seems like a few grams could come off, cheap horsepower savings.

Question for you: I seem to recall a saw or some saws having a separate cylinder and head. Any of them suitable to experiment with? If someone was just machining a flat head proto-typing might be easier and cheaper. I don't know if 6061 T6 would hold up as a cylinder head but I just happen to have a couple chunks of it, 12"x16" and a little over an inch thick, I think an inch and eighth, maybe. These were left over from an old project that never happened.

Hu


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## exSW (Dec 7, 2013)

So what I'm getting is chainsaws don't have detonation problems because they don't have TIME to detonate.They are moving fast at a constant rate with a reasonably constant load.


----------



## trophyhunter (Dec 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Less oil than 40:1 is what it means.....


I know, completely understand the intent.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2013)

shootingarts said:


> Randy,
> 
> What you are talking about here is rock solid of course. Getting a little trickier but you might find the cost of a custom piston for one or two bores and engines isn't out of reach. Flat tops do simplify things but as you continue to take the changes to extremes you are going to almost have to have a custom jug cast or go to a custom piston. Back when the world was young I could have a custom piston made for only 30-50% cost over a standard configuration from one of the high performance folks. Before you ask, no I don't remember which one. I am talking early seventies, far too many years and beers ago! That was only having eight pistons made though, not a big run.
> 
> ...




Machining the top off of the jug and making a head is very common in saws used for racing. I'm not sure how well it would work in a work saw.


----------



## shootingarts (Dec 8, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Machining the top off of the jug and making a head is very common in saws used for racing. I'm not sure how well it would work in a work saw.





Definitely getting into play area here swapping pistons and heads.

There might be some gains to reshaping the squish area very slightly instead of just flat though. There was horsepower being found by accelerating the mixture in the chamber and controlling swirl and such instead of just squeezing it. Not having a squish area was why the 426 hemi wasn't really that potent of a street engine. While it outflowed the wedge chambered engines the flow wasn't used on the street and the conventional engines were stouter on the street. The Ford Cleveland engines were the same way, lots of flow, not really that potent on the street.

A few ideas buzzing around but I can't help thinking I'm late to the dance with two cycle engines. When I got involved in benchrest rifle competition I had some wonderful ideas. Decided to pass them by a friend of mine who had been the world record holder for a decade or so. Jef told me he was sure that when I got through reinventing the wheel it would be rounder and better than ever. I rubbed the dent in my head and took the hint!

Hu


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 8, 2013)

exSW said:


> 250 cc vs 70cc and timing?Chainsaws are made to run flat out your atv has a powerband that matchs up with your gears.



While there's a multitude of other factors ( and many have already been discussed here)
the different distance across the 2 typical sized bores of those engines
plays a factor in the detonation issue.
pressure wave expanding and temp rise and snowball effect kinda stuff going on in the hole.

Anyone got a link to a better answer than my babbling??


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## HuskStihl (Dec 8, 2013)

I doubt the compression ratio is that high. The calculations are assuming a bunch of stuff that probably isn't happening. Indy cars are turbocharged, which is a whole other ball game. 
Engines will almost always make more power with the lowest octane rating which doesn't detonate.
I run 93 for the safety margin, if the gas sits for a bit it might drop to 90 or 88. Adding oil will slow down the burn effectively increasing the "octane". I bet if you could "Teflon" stuff so you could run straight gas, 87 would detonate in a hot saw.


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## shootingarts (Dec 8, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I doubt the compression ratio is that high. The calculations are assuming a bunch of stuff that probably isn't happening. Indy cars are turbocharged, which is a whole other ball game.
> Engines will almost always make more power with the lowest octane rating which doesn't detonate.
> I run 93 for the safety margin, if the gas sits for a bit it might drop to 90 or 88. Adding oil will slow down the burn effectively increasing the "octane". I bet if you could "Teflon" stuff so you could run straight gas, 87 would detonate in a hot saw.



We are talking "static" measured compression ratios. While the static numbers are extremely high in the saws, I have no idea how that translates into pressures the engine sees when it is running. Burning mix in a two cycle engine probably doesn't generate the same total pressure as burning straight gas in a four cycle engine even if they both have a measured 200PSI compression and both are normally aspirated. Like you I strongly suspect at least some of the two cycle oils serve to increase octane.

Just numbers pulled out of thin air but maybe a four cycle on gas with 12.5:1 compression sees 600psi of peak pressure when the engine is running and the fuel is being ignited. The two cycle with 12.5:1 compression may only see 450psi of peak pressure when the engine is running and the fuel being ignited. Those numbers may not be anywhere close but are just put out to try to clarify what I mean about the difference between pressure indicated by a compression gauge and the pressures generated running.

Just speculation on my part but it might explain why 87 octane plus oil works for some. I'm sticking with 93 octane myself. Kind of like that stronger oil mix for lubrication, a little extra octane is cheap insurance against detonation.

Hu


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 8, 2013)

Lost of good info, even more BS way above ones mental capacity, education and pay grade, myself included. Let me ask this. What is the formula to determine the compression ratio of a piston ported two cycle engine? Do you use the trapped method?

Randy has a good handle on how things work in a piston ported two cycle engine, better than myself, and better than most IMHO. I see lots of copy and paste going on with little understanding of what's been written.


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 8, 2013)

I recall some long ago debate in dirtbike magazines over the comp ratio.
The calculated stroke method vs the actual trapped area.
I tended to figure that the combustion chamber felt the BTUs 
from the trapped area.
Now how you factor in losses through ports and mass of the intake charge
the exhaust gases... and so on....
anyone gettin a headache yet? ;^)


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## shootingarts (Dec 8, 2013)

Andyshine77 said:


> Lost of good info, even more BS way above ones mental capacity, education and pay grade, myself included. Let me ask this. What is the formula to determine the compression ratio of a piston ported two cycle engine? Do you use the trapped method?
> 
> Randy has a good handle on how things work in a piston ported two cycle engine, better than myself, and better than most IMHO. I see lots of copy and paste going on with little understanding of what's been written.





No formula at all other than converting the compression gauge reading to a ratio. One atmosphere at sea level is roughly 14.7 psi. Blow 200 psi on a compression gauge, divide that by 14.7. Since you want a ratio instead of a fraction subtract one from that.

200/14.7=13.60. Subtract 1 from that and a little rounding and it is about 12.5:1. Perhaps it should be 13.5:1, I'm working from old memory. It seems like zero on the gauge should be one atmosphere but I don't remember 200 PSI being 13.5:1. I could be wrong after forty years. 2013-1973=40 if you need the math on that. Built my gas/altered engine in 1970, started building circle track engines a couple three years later. Back then our short track cars were usually running between 12 and 13 to one compression. Any way you size it, 200PSI on a gauge is a lot of compression.

Just for the record, I never cut and paste without documentation and credit. Anything I paste in will start (included text) and end (end included text) with a note where the information came from. The way I roll and it was a requirement on the forum I co-owned and co-administered.

Hu


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 8, 2013)

From what I know the compression ratio in a two cycle engine or any other isn't based on psi. It's based on volumes. Bore, combustion chamber volume and stroke. 200 psi in a small two cycle engine is nothing like 200psi in a four cycle car engine. Now add the fact the cylinder bore has a hole in. 

http://www.kidsatv.com/pdfs/higher_compression6.pdf
http://www.torqsoft.net/compression-ratio.html


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## one.man.band (Dec 8, 2013)

'The effect of Higher Compression Ratio in 2ST Engines' link above is right in the wheelhouse of what yall are hashing out.

probably need to re-read it many more times, to get my brain to digest it. 

the fuel efficiency increase thing is pretty cool.

unless i missed it, only thing that wasn't mentioned, was spark timing vs. compression. maybe the old school, "advance it 'till it pings under load, then bring it back" does not apply here? cannot tell from the atricle.

-omb


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## one.man.band (Dec 8, 2013)

maybe a little off topic, because its about 4ST.

i the mid '80's there was a guy named Larry Widmer (aka: theoldone). he built heads for many winston cup teams, during that time. while everyone else was running about 13.5 to 14:1, his heads and motor combo was running 20 to 22:1. (his heads were on bill elliott's (spelling), '88 thunderbird that still holds the top speed record at talledega as far as i know).

was interesting when i found out many years later how he did it: retarded camshaft, retarded timing. the 'bang' happened many more degrees after TDC than everyne else, which makes sense, since the piston was further down the pipe, and the volume of the chamber was much greater, so it did not detonate even at 20+:1.

long story short, nascar changed the comp rules to 16:1 max. since he was the only one doing that and winning. larry got out of winston cup, and into nhra. ford screwed him over and sold his prototype heads to a pro stock driver who used them to win many championships.

EDIT: forgot to mention the most important part, the heads did not have a combustion chamber. the valves were even with the bottom of the head, basically sitting flat at the deck. Aside: his company currently is involved with aerospace, and development contracts. they do make some import heads, but they are sold out years before the heads are even carved.

-omb


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 8, 2013)

So does 2 cycle oil increse or decrease the fuel octane?.


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## Mastermind (Dec 8, 2013)

That is a whole nuther can O worms, as you well know Big D.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 8, 2013)

komatsuvarna said:


> So does 2 cycle oil increse or decrease the fuel octane?.


Yes


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## Metals406 (Dec 8, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread yet. . . But my guess is Randy dropped a Wassabi pea in the jug during assembly -- & it wrecked the top end, just like they wreck Randy's bottom end! LOL

Sent from my Bic RaZor


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 9, 2013)

ok another qwestion ,why does my 044 with 200 psi pull over a lot easier than my 660 with 200 psi ? does piston bore make that much of a difference on cylinder pressure ?


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2013)

It has a lot to do with the diameter of the rotor holding the rope.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 9, 2013)

It takes a bigger starter and more amperage to turn over a larger engine in 4 stroke world. It should be the same in 2 stroke world. Embarassingly, I don't think I could pull over my 200psi 93cc saw. The 85cc with 175 I can do with little problem (not pushing the magic button)


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

This turned out to be a hell of a good thread. The way we have had an excellent discussion about a sometimes touchy subject is great. 

Thanks for all who participated. I learned a few things from the links provided.......yes, I read them all.


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## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2013)

288 is the hardest pulling saw I had. The 2100 with 3 starter pawls is a little easier.


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## TPA (Dec 9, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> ok another qwestion ,why does my 044 with 200 psi pull over a lot easier than my 660 with 200 psi ? does piston bore make that much of a difference on cylinder pressure ?


200psi= 200 pounds per square inch. The more square inches there are the more pounds required to push the piston through the compression cycle. A 660 has more square inches than an 044.

And Brad is right that if the pull cord wraps around a pulley of larger diameter, you will have a greater mechanical advantage.


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## Philip Wheelock (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> This turned out to be a hell of a good thread...


Right. Why not send Amsoil the bill to repair the 066, claiming that the owner's saw was blown because of Amsoil's misleading marketing claims? Might get someone's attention and perhaps the 100:1 garbage will be taken out of their sales literature.


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## SierraWoodsman (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> 87 octane is all I ever use.


You still Recommend adding 3 OZ of "Torco accelerator" to your 87 octane/32:1 H1R per Mix Gallon?
I've been following this suggestion to the letter since getting the saws back from you Randy. 
Yesterday Let my little girl try out the 346xp to pick out and cut the Christmas tree. Heck, come to think of it
I don't think I've seen anyone run that little saw and not crack a smile


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

Philip Wheelock said:


> Right. Why not send Amsoil the bill to repair the 066, claiming that the owner's saw was blown because of Amsoil's misleading marketing claims? Might get someone's attention and perhaps the 100:1 garbage will be taken out of their sales literature.



I'm not worried about the repair bill. I wanted to try to get some people's attention here on this forum. If this saw's demise and this thread help folks see that paying careful attention to their oil selection and mix ratios can make their saws life a long and happy life, well then this was time and money well spent.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

SierraWoodsman said:


> You still Recommend adding 3 OZ of "Torco accelerator" to your 87 octane/32:1 H1R per Mix Gallon?
> I've been following this suggestion to the letter since getting the saws back from you Randy.
> Yesterday Let my little girl try out the 346xp to pick out and cut the Christmas tree. Heck, come to think of it
> I don't think I've seen anyone run that little saw and not crack a smile View attachment 321592



The Torco is just added insurance. Is it really needed? I'm not so sure. 

I started using that when we had some trouble with an overly hot 395XP. It was later determined that the saw's trouble was from a fuel line that was routed incorrectly. I've stopped using Torco in the last month to see how the saws fair......the cooler weather is a good time to try something new. So far, I can't tell any difference......but I've not done a huge amount of cutting either.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

SierraWoodsman said:


> You still Recommend adding 3 OZ of "Torco accelerator" to your 87 octane/32:1 H1R per Mix Gallon?
> I've been following this suggestion to the letter since getting the saws back from you Randy.
> Yesterday Let my little girl try out the 346xp to pick out and cut the Christmas tree. Heck, come to think of it
> I don't think I've seen anyone run that little saw and not crack a smile View attachment 321592



The Torco is just added insurance. Is it really needed? I'm not so sure. 

I started using that when we had some trouble with an overly hot 395XP. It was later determined that the saw's trouble was from a fuel line that was routed incorrectly. I've stopped using Torco in the last month to see how the saws fair......the cooler weather is a good time to try something new. So far, I can't tell any difference......but I've not done a huge amount of cutting either.


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## Philip Wheelock (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not worried about the repair bill...


I know. What gets me is that Amsoil will still continue marketing 100:1 and those who aren't members of AS will likely see their saws damaged, stock or modded, if they buy into these claims.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

You don't really think they would listen to me do you?


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm sure it's been contested MANY times. Opti-2 does the same thing.

My BIL bought a new Yamaha Banshee in 1989. We road together for years. He ran Opti-2 at 100:1 from day 1. The Banshee is the highest revving, most powerful 2-stroke quad ever made. He road it like he stole it. I'm talking speed shifting wide open runs in the sand dunes, icy country roads, circle track racing in fields, etc. Over the years, I did the topends on it twice. It never once seized. It finally locked the main crank bearings up after nearly 20 years. We replaced the crank and he's still running the same mix today.

I tried many times over the years to get him to switch oils and mix ratio. But what he is doing has worked so long that he won't switch. BTW, his quad is 100% stock. 

On the other hand, my Banshee was highly modified and I ran Maxima Castor 927 at 32:1, exclusively. I never seized a piston or damaged a crank.

To this day, I can't understand how that machine runs like it does. It's still going today.

I would NEVER do what he's done, and would highly recommend against anything similar. While it's contrary to most everything we think we know...it's worked for him. However, it does make for an interesting story to those of us that are far more anal and careful about these kinds of things.


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## Eccentric (Dec 9, 2013)

TPA said:


> 200psi= 200 pounds per square inch. The more square inches there are the more pounds required to push the piston through the compression cycle. A 660 has more square inches than an 044.
> 
> And Brad is right that if the pull cord wraps around a pulley of larger diameter, you will have a greater mechanical advantage.



You guys have all got that one right. A piston with more surface area (larger diameter) will require more force to push through that 200PSI. Just like a hydraulic ram with a larger piston exerts more force at a given hydro pressure. 

Also a pulley with a larger effective diameter (how far from center the rope is where it meets the pulley) will have more leverage to turn the crank against that pressure. A good example is a little 41cc Homelite Super E-Z. I've seen them blow over 180PSI with a fresh set of rings. The effective diameter of the starter pulley on those is about 1.5-2". They are NOT easy to pull over without the comp release open. They also 'feel' like they have great compression even when heavily scored and blowing about 110PSI. 

A 288XP has a relatively small starter pulley for the displacement. My McCulloch Super 250 (87cc) blows about 165PSI, yet is MUCH easier to pull over than a 288XP (also 87cc) blowing similar #'s. The old Mac's starter pulley is probably close to an inch larger in diameter than what's on the 288XP.


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## djones (Dec 9, 2013)

After reading all these replies I'm reminded of my shop teacher in high school telling us that replacing a fouled spark plug is way cheaper than replacing a blown motor. Granted, finding the happy medium for everybody's likes is a chore but erring on the generous side is less likely to cause expensive damage which leads to down time, possible loss of some income and the big stress maker, frustration. Just MHO.


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## albert (Dec 9, 2013)

Philip Wheelock said:


> I know. What gets me is that Amsoil will still continue marketing 100:1 and those who aren't members of AS will likely see their saws damaged, stock or modded, if they buy into these claims.


 Some need to find out the hard way. Most who try the 80-100:1's claim just don't blindly try it. They read claims on the net and hear some stories of pros using it in wackers and such. They also are told by dealers and sharp mechanics not to run less oil than 50:1, but do so anyway. Yes some stock low power light load *** will survive on it, but to expect a saw, especially a ported one to live very long is a pipe dream.


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## Philip Wheelock (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> You don't really think they would listen to me do you?


Probably not worth your time, the envelope, or the stamp. The fact that there is good information about this issue on AS is significant. Can't fix everything in the world...


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

I think Brad proved a point. Two top ends and a crank on his BIL's......on his nothing was needed...


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 9, 2013)

Eccentric said:


> You guys have all got that one right. A piston with more surface area (larger diameter) will require more force to push through that 200PSI. Just like a hydraulic ram with a larger piston exerts more force at a given hydro pressure.
> 
> Also a pulley with a larger effective diameter (how far from center the rope is where it meets the pulley) will have more leverage to turn the crank against that pressure. A good example is a little 41cc Homelite Super E-Z. I've seen them blow over 180PSI with a fresh set of rings. The effective diameter of the starter pulley on those is about 1.5-2". They are NOT easy to pull over without the comp release open. They also 'feel' like they have great compression even when heavily scored and blowing about 110PSI.
> 
> A 288XP has a relatively small starter pulley for the displacement. My McCulloch Super 250 (87cc) blows about 165PSI, yet is MUCH easier to pull over than a 288XP (also 87cc) blowing similar #'s. The old Mac's starter pulley is probably close to an inch larger in diameter than what's on the 288XP.


 

so if my thinking caps on strait ,in theory if my 660 is harder to pull over than the 044 ,the 660 would have more of a chance of detonation having the larger bore ? maybe why my 250cc atv had to have race fuel to not ping ? all 3 engines with around 200 psi


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## belgian (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey Randy, I didn't read all 18 pages of this thread but was wondering why the inside muffler pic was telling you something about what happened. Was it the colour ? 
Maybe you mentioned it already, just didn't notice it. thanks


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I think Brad proved a point. Two top ends and a crank on his BIL's......on his nothing was needed...



That was over a 20 year period. He had absolutely no trouble at all from his mix. Banshees are know to be topend eaters. His was not. I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I would NEVER recommend what's he's done. But, it does make for an interesting aside.

To your point though, I never had to replace my crank. I did have to replace one of the main bearings, but not due to wear. The outer race cracked and was found during a tear down for an unrelated issue. I also did the topends twice on mine as well. This is general maintenance on these machines.

I apologize that I did not make that clear.

BTW, I agree 100% with your recommendations.


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## Eccentric (Dec 9, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> so if my thinking caps on strait ,in theory if my 660 is harder to pull over than the 044 ,the 660 would have more of a chance of detonation having the larger bore ? maybe why my 250cc atv had to have race fuel to not ping ? all 3 engines with around 200 psi



Cylinder diameter, combustion chamber shape/size, and their affect on detonation is above my pay grade. Eagerly waiting for an answer to that question. My '83 CR250R and '86 TRX250R both pinged on 87 and 89 octane pump gas...............and they were both stock, with only the exhaust systems and reeds changed. Come to think of it my '90 ATK 406CC did too (and it was bone stock)....opcorn:


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

belgian said:


> Hey Randy, I didn't read all 18 pages of this thread but was wondering why the inside muffler pic was telling you something about what happened. Was it the colour ?
> Maybe you mentioned it already, just didn't notice it. thanks



The lack of any oil at all.



Trx250r180 said:


> so if my thinking caps on strait ,in theory if my 660 is harder to pull over than the 044 ,the 660 would have more of a chance of detonation having the larger bore ? maybe why my 250cc atv had to have race fuel to not ping ? all 3 engines with around 200 psi



Combustion chamber shape, and volume.....along with squish band width, squish clearance, and squish velocity all play a role in detonation control. Stroke does too, a longer stroke creates a longer dwell time, that in itself can play a role in whether an engine will detonate or not. 

In cause you are wondering where I'm coming up with this stuff........try sitting down for a few hours and reading the latest and greatest from the ultra high horsepower turbo engine designers. Of course they refer to the squish area as the quench area.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

belgian said:


> Hey Randy, I didn't read all 18 pages of this thread but was wondering why the inside muffler pic was telling you something about what happened. Was it the colour ?
> Maybe you mentioned it already, just didn't notice it. thanks



The lack of any oil at all.



Trx250r180 said:


> so if my thinking caps on strait ,in theory if my 660 is harder to pull over than the 044 ,the 660 would have more of a chance of detonation having the larger bore ? maybe why my 250cc atv had to have race fuel to not ping ? all 3 engines with around 200 psi



Combustion chamber shape, and volume.....along with squish band width, squish clearance, and squish velocity all play a role in detonation control. Stroke does too, a longer stroke creates a longer dwell time, that in itself can play a role in whether an engine will detonate or not. 

In cause you are wondering where I'm coming up with this stuff........try sitting down for a few hours and reading the latest and greatest from the ultra high horsepower turbo engine designers. Of course they refer to the squish area as the quench area.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2013)

I also want to make this clear. I don't think for one second that my modified Banshee would have lasted any time at all at 100:1.

Again, like Randy pointed out, mine had no catastrophic failures at all related to the oil/mix, even though putting out a LOT more power. While his quad crank lasted an amazing 20 years at 100:1, it probably wouldn't have needed replaced at all had he been running 32:1. Just like most stock saws will live a long life at 50:1 it could live longer at 32:1, and even more so on a modified saw. If nothing else, think of it as cheap insurance. It can't hurt and will most likely help.


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## DexterDay (Dec 9, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> That was over a 20 year period. He had absolutely no trouble at all from his mix. Banshees are know to be topend eaters. His was not. I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I would NEVER recommend what's he's done. But, it does make for an interesting aside.
> 
> To your point though, I never had to replace my crank. I did have to replace one of the main bearings, but not due to wear. The outer race cracked and was found during a tear down for an unrelated issue. I also did the topends twice on mine as well. This is general maintenance on these machines.
> 
> ...



I was just PMing Big D about what oil I used (he just received a saw I sold him) and since I had my Banshee, I have ran 40:1 Castor 927 in everything. Rebuilt my top end as well (pistons and rings) but it was just general maintenance as well.

Castor 927 is the best smelling 2 cycle oil out there.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2013)

Nothing better than race gas and 927 in a screaming side-by-side twin cylinder Banshee. That's 100% my obsession with the Solo Twin Love that sound!

Sorry, just a bit off topic.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 9, 2013)

would not be a Mastermind thread without a thread derail


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 9, 2013)

Only thing I didn't like about 927 was ya couldn't hardly tell if the gas was mixed or not.

I may run it again sometime....


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## Eccentric (Dec 9, 2013)

komatsuvarna said:


> Only thing I didn't like about 927 was ya couldn't hardly tell if the gas was mixed or not.
> 
> I may run it again sometime....



There are a few oils like that. Redline doesn't have as much dye as I'd like to see in an oil. The best oil I've seen for that is the WoodlandPro synthetic. It turns the fuel *BLUE*.


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## DexterDay (Dec 9, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Nothing better than race gas and 927 in a screaming side-by-side twin cylinder Banshee. That's 100% my obsession with the Solo Twin Love that sound!
> 
> Sorry, just a bit off topic.



With 110, it's the best smell in the world (well, one of them)  

And as for the quad.. Awesome machines. Loved mine. Only have 4 stokes now (440ex/300ex/400 Big Bear for work).

Still want a Quadzilla 500 (Suzuki). One day I will restore one.


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## exSW (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Stroke does too, a longer stroke creates a longer dwell time, that in itself can play a role in whether an engine will detonate or not.


 Elaborate please.Longer dwell do to longer stroke leads to detonation?


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## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> The Torco is just added insurance. Is it really needed? I'm not so sure.
> 
> I started using that when we had some trouble with an overly hot 395XP. It was later determined that the saw's trouble was from a fuel line that was routed incorrectly. I've stopped using Torco in the last month to see how the saws fair......the cooler weather is a good time to try something new. So far, I can't tell any difference......but I've not done a huge amount of cutting either.



I didn't use any fuel additives this summer and fall when I burnt at least 10 gallons on the stuff I cut. It was split between the 395 and 288 with the machine work done having plenty of 87 run through it.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2013)

Mike you remember when we were chasing a gremlin in Roll Tide's 395? 

We started thinking low octane may be the problem. We found the problem, and it had nothing to do with fuel quality....

That's when I started using Torco. I've really started thinking I wasted my money on it.


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## sgrizz (Dec 9, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Nothing better than race gas and 927 in a screaming side-by-side twin cylinder Banshee. That's 100% my obsession with the Solo Twin Love that sound!
> 
> Sorry, just a bit off topic.


 I had a 2001 banshee and ran 927 32:1 with vp race gas and smelled like cotton candy .


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 9, 2013)

leaded trick fuel with the 927


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## bayard (Dec 9, 2013)

this was a great thread.this is why we are here. i thank all of you for posting .k


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## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Mike you remember when we were chasing a gremlin in Roll Tide's 395?
> 
> We started thinking low octane may be the problem. We found the problem, and it had nothing to do with fuel quality....
> 
> That's when I started using Torco. I've really started thinking I wasted my money on it.



I remember the thing wouldn't run right and he was trying 10 different fuels in it. I have some octane booster but haven't used it since last winter when I cut with you guys down there. It's sitting on the shelf and I might be able to find it. 927 is another good oil that I didn't have any problems with build up or bad smells.


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## treesmith (Dec 9, 2013)

I love listening, reading and learning so thanks Randy and all the others here. The amount of useful info and experience available here is great, you all make this place what it is so, thanks! 

Sent from my GT-I9210T


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## windthrown (Dec 9, 2013)

One question I can answer is that gasoline octane is definitely reduced with the addition of premix oil. From information posted out there, including BP, Yamaha and Rotax, octane drops about 2 points when oil is mixed with gas at a rate of 50:1. It varies somewhat with the type of oil used.

Also the piston top pitting is not the only damage you can get from running low octane gas. Scoring and scuffing often occurs, and looks a lot like the damage from straight gassing or overheating (running lean). This is because of flaring and uneven burn pressure at TDC, which causes piston tilt and excessive scuffing. I had a series of photos showing this, but I cannot find them. Madsens has a good photo of an example of really low octane damaged piston though:

http://www.madsens1.com/saw_fuelmix.htm

Also from what I can glean from the detonation photos here, the majority of detonation pitting is on the outer edges of the pistons. If the typical MM saw has a much narrower squish band, as shown in many of his porting threads, the reduction of the outer squish area would lower the effects of detonation and uneven flaring, because there is less compressed fuel volume out there in the squish at TDC and hence less force causing pitting or piston tilt. Detonation may well be still happening with lower octane gas, but its just on a smaller scale and not noticeable with the naked eye. The modified cylinder also focuses more fuel at the center of the piston head, and hence more downforce at the center of the piston which would cause more even pressure, even if the burn were more uneven. This would help to avoid pitting and piston tilt from flaring.

My thoughts anyway...


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## Walt41 (Dec 9, 2013)

Randy, you should subscribe to "machinery lubrication" it is a trade magazine that has tons of useful information, in one of the previous issues it covered the film layer requirements for caged bearings as static and dynamic loads were increased.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Dec 10, 2013)

Sorry if this has already been brought up. I got to page 9 with 10 to go and there wasn't any more talk about the bearings.

Does it look like the rod scrapped the bottom of the crankcase? If this is true, that rod is way out of concentric from the crank pin!


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## Mastermind (Dec 10, 2013)

It hit the case after the bearing fell apart.....


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## SierraWoodsman (Dec 10, 2013)

Eccentric said:


> There are a few oils like that. Redline doesn't have as much dye as I'd like to see in an oil. The best oil I've seen for that is the WoodlandPro synthetic. It turns the fuel *BLUE*.


Redline / Belray H1R are both hard to tell by the color even @ 32:1. I would much prefer that they turned the mix a more distinct color.
Now I Dymo-label the fuel container with the mix ratio/Oil type/fuel date/octane rating. This may be overkill for some but I like to keep it straight in head.
What ever it takes I don't want to make the straight gassed mistake.


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## komatsuvarna (Dec 10, 2013)

I got to thinking about how little oil is even in 50:1 ratios. Thats 1 ounce of oil, for every 50 ounces of gas! At 50:1 that's 2% oil. 

32:1 is just 3% oil, that dont sound like much, but it sounds a lot better than 2% .
40:1 is 2.5% oil.
80:1 is 1.3% oil.


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## shootingarts (Dec 10, 2013)

SierraWoodsman said:


> Redline / Belray H1R are both hard to tell by the color even @ 32:1. I would much prefer that they turned the mix a more distinct color.
> Now I Dymo-label the fuel container with the mix ratio/Oil type/fuel date/octane rating. This may be overkill for some but I like to keep it straight in head.
> What ever it takes I don't want to make the straight gassed mistake.




One thing for sure, I don't want any red two cycle oil! My off road diesel is dyed red and I'm pretty sure it won't substitute for pre-mix. I have designated cans but I also sometimes have more fuel than fits in the designated cans, that is when the trouble starts. I was scratching various parts of my anatomy the other day since I knew I had mixed a little red diesel and gas together and the best two-cycle oil I could buy with a quick grab was red too. I start looking in cans and I had used the blue two cycle for the last mix, problem solved! Still need to work on that. The new diesel doesn't stink nearly as bad as the old stuff, even farm diesel, and my smeller seems like everything else, not as good as it used to be. Used to be a quick snort told me what was in what can. Smell that is, not shot!

Hu


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## windthrown (Dec 10, 2013)

Yah, on the ranch we had tax-free red dye (off-road) diesel for the tractor, clear taxed diesel for the on-road Ford 250, plain regular gas for the lawn mower, cars and ATV, and super E0 gas that was mixed with 2-stroke oil. Mobil 1 premix was a pain because it was clear. The ex could not tell if it was mixed or now. When they stopped selling Mobil 1 in the US I switched to Elf, which has a blue dye in it. So then we had red, white and blue fuel around the barn in different sized containers. I spray painted the series of gas containers with red, white and blue streaks to mark them, and the plain gas had no paint.


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## Jimmy in NC (Dec 10, 2013)

sefh3 said:


> That has to be one of the first that I have seen to not score the piston but to break a rod bearing due to not enough oil.
> 
> Thank you for sharing this information, Randy. I've been running 40:1 with Stihl Ultra. I think it's time for me to switch.




I just got a little hand held blower in 3 weeks ago. It lived 8 short days.. ran low on fuel, they added straight gas to it and it locked the crank up tighter than I can free up. Piston, ring, cylinder are mint. Knew it was straight gassed but this confirms it was poorly mixed/low on oil.


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## 066blaster (Dec 10, 2013)

TPA said:


> 200psi= 200 pounds per square inch. The more square inches there are the more pounds required to push the piston through the compression cycle. A 660 has more square inches than an 044.
> 
> And Brad is right that if the pull cord wraps around a pulley of larger diameter, you will have a greater mechanical advantage.


then why is it when i break a pull rope and reatach the handle they pull over really easy with less rope coiled up. pull rope length does affect ease of start up and ease of pull doesnt always reflect the amount of compression it has.


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## Hinerman (Dec 10, 2013)

Trx250r180 said:


> would not be an Arboristsite thread without a thread derail


 
fixed it for you 

Great thread by the way. I use Amsoil at 40:1 in my saws at the moment. I have some Stihl Ultra at 50:1 I use in my trimmer, edger, backpack blower, etc. Everything is going to 40:1 from now on regardless of what oil (or equipment) i use.


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Dec 11, 2013)

Very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to everyone that contributed.

One question for Randy. Your honest opinion here, do you feel it was the oil itself or simply the lack of oil in this engine?


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## Mastermind (Dec 11, 2013)

VINIFIREWOOD said:


> Very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to everyone that contributed.
> 
> One question for Randy. Your honest opinion here, do you feel it was the oil itself or simply the lack of oil in this engine?



Nothing at all wrong with Amsoil Saber. There just wasn't enough of it.


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Dec 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Nothing at all wrong with Amsoil Saber. There just wasn't enough of it.



That's kinda what I thought but I didn't want to assume anything.

One misconception a lot of people have with Amsoil's 100:1 recommendation is that this is meant for the home owner running stock unmodified equipment on a weekly or monthly basis. If one were to read the label, they recommend 80:1 for "Professional" use in unmodified equipment. Now to most of us even this seems waaayyyyy to lean of a mixture, even to me as an Amsoil user and dealer. And in a situation like this in a modified engine obviously more oil is needed. Trying to run 100 or even 80:1 in this saw is like trying to run your average 5w30 in a Sprint Cup Nascar. It just aint gonna work. Bottom line what I'm getting at is like you said, it wasn't the oil just the lack there of. I think it would be safe to say that any oil, in this situation, would have failed to give sufficient lubrication at that mix ratio.


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## CR500 (Dec 20, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> I'm sure it's been contested MANY times. Opti-2 does the same thing.
> 
> My BIL bought a new Yamaha Banshee in 1989. We road together for years. He ran Opti-2 at 100:1 from day 1. The Banshee is the highest revving, most powerful 2-stroke quad ever made. He road it like he stole it. I'm talking speed shifting wide open runs in the sand dunes, icy country roads, circle track racing in fields, etc. Over the years, I did the topends on it twice. It never once seized. It finally locked the main crank bearings up after nearly 20 years. We replaced the crank and he's still running the same mix today.
> 
> ...




Not to doubt you Brad but what about the Suzuki Quadzilla??? The Quadzilla was nicknamed "Banshee Eater." The Zilla was a 500cc 2 stroke quad.

I ran R-50 in my sled at 32:1 and I have been inside 2 720 motors and I could tell which one was ran on Polaris synthetic and Klotz R50.


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## blsnelling (Dec 20, 2013)

They didn't rev as high.


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## CR500 (Dec 20, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> They didn't rev as high.


True... but they were fast. I used to have a banshee before I got into bikes lol


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