# digital gas:oil mixture analyzer



## plutus (Apr 3, 2017)

Im currently at the final stage of building oil gas analyzer which is standalone device with its own display. It works like this:
1.Put sample into the device
2.get result of exact oil:gas ratio displayed on lcd screen

As of now device has pretty high accuracy of 97-98% which was measured analyzing around hundred samples couple thousand times than averaging results.

Its multi use device that means you can use it at least for 2-3 years then you may need to clean it up from dust which will be little complex procedure. 

Im not going to publicate pictures of the device and source code for now.

What im interested in is how much you would consider to spend to have that kind of device. 

Being a small engine mechanic I was searching for something like this for years but couldnt find so decide to build it myself.

All negative and positive comments/suggestions are welcomed.


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## GrassGuerilla (Apr 3, 2017)

Interesting idea. But without some idea of the size etc it's hard to guess how it could be used in the field. Almost would need to be built into the mixed gas container to be practical for field use. Of course cost and durability would be an issue. Otherwise as a stand alone analyzer it would be useful to shops etc. but I doubt many would spend a substantial amount to know the actual ratio at hand, easier to just blame the mix without any stats. Of course, customers would love it, shops would hate it I think. 

Subscribed...


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## Little Al (Apr 3, 2017)

Can I reserve commenting until a picture & price are posted.


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## plutus (Apr 3, 2017)

To give visual description of the size its like a 6" cellphone (rectangle) 10cm high. I was thinking to build this not for residential users but for big commercial and shops. One thing is you are blaming customers for wrong mix the other thing to blame big manufacturers like echo or stihl for defective assembly which at the end cause scorrings much look like raw gas issue. And same time keeping backs of customers. Have got into this issues when designers switched from reed valves to piston ported designs with air flow passages built right into the piston itself.

Thanks for comment


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## ironman_gq (Apr 3, 2017)

I could see a shop having a want for one if the price is justifiable.


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## plutus (Apr 3, 2017)

Little Al said:


> Can I reserve commenting until a picture & price are posted.



Sure you can the only reason im not posting pics is big companies will catch the approach and patent it under closed license. Im going to publicate the hardware and source code at the end. Hopeyou agree and understand with my reasons not going public for now.


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## Little Al (Apr 3, 2017)

plutus said:


> Sure you can the only reason im not posting pics is big companies will catch the approach and patent it under closed license. Im going to publicate the hardware and source code at the end. Hopeyou agree and understand with my reasons not going public for now.


 No Problem, good luck with your enterprise Just a bit difficult passing comments other than general ,on something without details/info.


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## KenJax Tree (Apr 3, 2017)

This has to be a joke. What is wrong with measuring the oil to figure out the ratio?


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## plutus (Apr 3, 2017)

KenJax Tree said:


> This has to be a joke. What is wrong with measuring the oil to figure out the ratio?


Its about measuring ratio of already mixed gas.


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## plutus (Apr 3, 2017)

ironman_gq said:


> I could see a shop having a want for one if the price is justifiable.


One of my points here is to get understanding how much people would like to spend on having it.


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## CR888 (Apr 3, 2017)

The further down in price (cheaper) the bigger the market would be. Once upon a time chain grinders cost a small fortune & and only service shops and industry logger/tree service people owned them, now they are cheap enough that the average homeowner can buy one & get value for money. I think price will dictate your market.


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## Sportfury70 (Apr 15, 2017)

I would imagine a consumer version would have to be capped at $50 per unit. However, an equipment rental shop or a lowes or Home Depot could (smell a licensing deal?) could find great use out of that, so a commercial version with memory, menu options, and computer interface would probably be worth several hundred bucks per unit. 

I'm working my way through a business degree, so I'm familiar with how important it is to play the margins, but I'm by no means an expert. I assume this is patentable?


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## plutus (Apr 15, 2017)

Consumer version will be around 300-350CAD. All materials and parts used are high quality I didnt want to mess up whole project cos of inaccurate cut part. It may have lcd display but right now its working via pc. Im not thinking of patenting it I have 1 very serious project or invention that I would definitely patent. But analyzer will be available to public without any licenses or other headaches.


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## Sportfury70 (Apr 15, 2017)

No patent would be dangerous, and at that price point what's stopping Oregon or Stihl from taking it and selling it for half the price? It's an interesting device but your biggest customer would be B2B dealers, rental stores, and dedicated hobbiests to for a product like that. Marketing it directly to the general consumer would leave potential buyers with sticker shock. 

It's your choice, and this is only friendly advice, but if it were mine I'd patent and liscense to oregon or baileys or something. They could take the brunt of the needed capitol for scale and you could simply collect a check with little involvement other than future R&D.


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## plutus (Apr 15, 2017)

If this will be under open project license or whatever its called then dont think any big company will think of a profit from it cos anybody can build it and use it. But my main problem is I dont want to pay huge amount for licensing cos I dont have enough funds to share here and there. My next project will need money which I dont want to spend on patenting analyzer. In few words about big project is that its possible to halt carb jobs 80% if new approach will be used.


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## Philbert (Apr 15, 2017)

I think that it is a great idea for larger shops, depending on the pricing, for diagnostic use, not for mixing fuel. 

Assuming that it is accurate, and fast, it would take the guess work out of dumping the fuel from a saw into a Mason jar and judging the color. Digital readouts carry more credibility and authority with customers (even if _not_ more accurate - they just _look _more accurate, although I have received totally bogus digital battery analyses, with print outs, from service stations trying to sell me a new battery!).

I could also see saw (and other O*P*E) manufacturers recommending these to their higher tier / volume dealers for evaluating warranty issues.

As noted, depends on price, size, accuracy, reliability, ease of use, etc. Anything involving gasoline might need some UL or FM rating by the way.

Just curious, are there other objective tests that a mechanic can do now? Anything with a test tube or meter, like I do with my Tiny Tester for ethanol?
http://www.baileysonline.com/Chains...y-Tester---Alcohol-Ethanol-Content-Tester.axd

Philbert


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## plutus (Apr 15, 2017)

Pretty good points about analyzer. 
Didnt get what you want to test like with that ethanol tester you can test ethanol content in gas nothing more I think im not using it its useless. I mean for what we were tought to use that for is useless and meaningless procedure for mechanics. That way they (manufacturers) want to put us mechanics in front line against customers and hide their engineering mistakes that way. Thats why my next project will show that they could solve ethanol issue ,actually I cant even call that an issue , long time ago if they would hire open minded people who are not affraid of making mistakes and loosing their jobs for new inventions.


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## Philbert (Apr 15, 2017)

I was wondering if there was some kind of 'test tube' / high school chemistry type analytical test that a mechanic could use to measure the actual mix ratio in a fuel sample. 

You know, something simpler (and cheaper) than a mass spectrometer !

Philbert


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## plutus (Apr 15, 2017)

Thats actually what is my device for . But another approach may be trying to cut oil from gas which will be very hard as even in gasanalyzers they can say what elements are present in the substance but they cant extract oil from gas in simple ways as they used to bond together cos of almost same structure(molecular). But if you can find an element which could absorb gas or oil from mixed structure then you could do a little math and find what mix it was. Hard to write that everything pm me.


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## LegDeLimber (Apr 20, 2017)

One more little aggravation to think over. 

We seem to still have trouble with dealers/shops balking at buying the interconnects & software.
And this just to look after (Their brand of) the auto-twiddle carburetors on units that are already out in the marketplace.

The fuel tester price point has been mentioned above and it sounds like the fuel tester might come in at a bit over the, prices for the carburetor test gear. 
I've only seen a vague mention of the cost(s) of the carb tools.
You may be cold selling a product that these same dealers will, also, be resistant to.

Not meaning to be a naysayer, just hoping to help with spotting a possible obstacle.


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## backhoelover (Apr 20, 2017)

I would buy one if price is right


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## plutus (Jun 28, 2017)

Just for an update working prototype will be ready within a month. If anybody is interested message me. Will answer any questions concerning to the device privately. Plus can show it in action in real time. Reread what posted earlier and have to mention some major modifications. Its completely standalone no need for pc. It has its own display with buttons. So can be used in a field. Has pretty good interactivity.


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## plutus (Sep 6, 2017)

Device is ready if interested send message.


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## backhoelover (Sep 6, 2017)

And video


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## Bobby Kirbos (Sep 7, 2017)

Honestly, I don't see the "casual home user" investing in something like this. For professionals who mix ratios of oil by the gallon instead of the ounce, I can see this as possibly a useful tool to have.

I am that "casual home user". I have a 1 gallon fuel can that is mixed around a slightly oil heavy 40:1 (I target 40:1 than add a touch more). I run all of my 2 stroke stuff (chainsaw, leaf blower, weed eater) with it and don't have any problems. In an average year, that 1 gallon can gets me through the whole year.

I have the same rule for 2-stroke fuel that I have for hand loaded ammo - it it wasn't put together by me, it doesn't go into my stuff **. If someone were to give me a can of 2-stroke fuel, it would go into the fuel tank on my car with the next fill-up.


** I have a neighbor. He's a nice guy. He grew up in the city. He bought a 2-stroke leaf blower and had trouble starting it. He showed me the "fuel pouch" that they gave him at Home Depot. Yup... he put the contents of the "fuel pouch" straight into the tank. He didn't know that the contents of the "fuel pouch" was oil and that it needed to be mixed with gasoline....


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## CentaurG2 (Sep 7, 2017)

An inventive/intuitive person would make it into an app and put it onto the new I-phony 8.


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## plutus (Sep 7, 2017)

CentaurG2 said:


> An inventive/intuitive person would make it into an app and put it onto the new I-phony 8.



Does anyone made it before? If no then this you can count as innovation. Whats the difference between standalone device and app? You still need to put gas into the device, or how you would pour it into your new iphone 8 to check what mix it is ? besides for me its not hard to make an app if needed but you have to have a device which can work with gas directly.


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## plutus (Sep 7, 2017)

@Bobby Kirbos this is not for homeowner use its made for shops. To figure out how gas related problems are progressing with what failures. I am engine mechanic certified from many manufacturers am holding many mst certs with updates but when it was coming to explain knowledgeable customers why their new 2 stroke equipment suddenly lost power (heavily carbonated spark plug, afterfiring after engine is shut off, blocked exh port or partially blocked, clogged exh screen etc.) cos of rich mixture or not starting at all (scored piston and cylinder mostly) and by checking for leaks to eliminate artificial air in the crank case, it was almost impossible to check the mixture to tell how it was mixed. Every time reaching to that point I decide to research is there any way to tell how it was mixed, and couldnt find any worthy thing even no patent in US and Canada via google. So was forced to make device myself. Having good microeletronics background start to learn programming after spending 9 hours in the shop. I didnt ask for any investment from others didnt put the project into kickstarter or similar accelerators. After trials and errors and trying different methods that were working theoretically in my mind and investing more than 2000USD into the project money that I am earning from fixing engines and free time that I suppose to spend with my family which worth way much more to me I finally made a device which is capable of detecting 3 brands of oil mixes and also synthetic mixes like trufuel and motomix from stihl. brands will be expanded im currently working on it. By saying 2000USD doesn't mean that device costs that much  money was wasted on trial and errors.


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## Bobby Kirbos (Sep 7, 2017)

@plutus
I can see how a tool like this would be very useful for a pro shop technician. There is only so much you can reasonably charge for a repair and I understand that bench time costs $$. Excessive troubleshooting time is time wasted and money lost if you can't charge what it actually cost (no one is going to want to pay for 15hrs of troubleshooting when that would cost almost as much as or more than a new saw).

I'm a computer programmer with a background in electrical engineering and an upbringing in my grandfather's machine shop (pre CNC), so I can appreciate the amount resources that are being put into this.

Good luck.


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## plutus (Sep 17, 2017)

Pictures uploaded to flickr video will be available on youtube.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/f850cH

if any questions send me a private message thanks.

The one in the picture is the final fully working prototype. All new boards will be printed on PCB.

And feedback on design highly appriciated. 

Currently working on documentation i.e. how to's.

Currently analyzer is working with following oils:
Echo red armour,
Echo 2-mix (greenish)
Stihl premium oil
Motomaster 2 stroke oil
Trufuel 50:1 premixed

Results are shown from 30:1 up to 55:1 with 5:1 increments, also transitions i.e. from 30:1 to 35:1, from 35:1 to 40:1 etc.
Lowest mark is 55:1 after which if mixture is 56:1 then you will get "too lean" notification on display same way if its below 30:1 then "too rich".

Capabilities are planned to be expanded monthly via new firmware updates.

Analyzer is using 5-9vdc so any 9v battery or usb or dedicated power adapter will work.

This is short description for now.


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## plutus (Sep 18, 2017)

Video of analyzer in action uploaded to youtube.


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## Bobby Kirbos (Sep 18, 2017)

That's cool. 


What I'm curious about is how you can electronically test and determine the brand of oil (or pre-mix for that matter). Do the mfgrs. "mark" the oil or fuel with some benign additive?


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## plutus (Sep 18, 2017)

you cant determine brand, actually you can but in this project its pointless cos you need only ratio. I added brand printout on display only for synthetic fuels like motomix or trufuel which is very hard to detect. Competitors of this device cant detect them as far as my research is true and as far as i am informed.


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## LegDeLimber (Sep 19, 2017)

Plutus, have you thought of submitting this to Hackaday.com ?
IF your going to stay as an open source builder, then the readers like projects like this.
There are some pretty sharp people amongst the readership.
The comments are lightly moderated, so a thick skin may be required if you get anything posted there.
Humor and bad puns tend to find their way in also.


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## plutus (Sep 19, 2017)

I was thinking of participating in hackaday,instructibles etc contests with this but right now they dont have contest for this type of project checked yesterday mostly for iot(internet of things) they have right now. All the source will be under apache lisence 2.0 except the actual database which I dont want to be fully open for now design files are under creative common attribute license 4.0 free to use modify but not be used under commercial purposes. So everything is open as u see. As I said currently am writing documentation with bill of materials used,how to's, same time am optimising code. Device is really super fast with very good accuracy. To reduce errors in calculations caused by noise or something else device is requesting data 4 times after u press measure button then its averaging results then comparing with its database and only after that showing on display. Sampling rate in current firmware was raised from 250 to 5000. Which really improved accuracy.


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## plutus (Sep 19, 2017)

Offtopic 
Yesteeday I was strugling taking out bearing from shaft with 3 jaw puller. I was alone nobody to give a hand to adjust the jaws. And puller is pretty heavy. Then I thought woudnt it be cool to make automatically adjusting puller which will find the center of the shaft or bolt head then adjust the jaws to grab the bearing and tightening its own threaded shaft when will feel too much pressure and will think its secured allow you to manually tighten it with wrench or something to take bearing out.  this is possible to do but dont think will get enough investment to start cos its only small % of people who will ever need it.


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## LegDeLimber (Sep 20, 2017)

How close is this one? 
http://www.qbcbearings.com/BuyRFQ/Bega_Pullers_MP_52.htm
I've had a couple of the two jaw ones that have that cone to close the jaws, with a separate handel to turn the pressure bolt.
These were pretty light duty... They're built to work like this one, except they always had a small, sliding, cross bar handle rather than using a separate tool to turn.
https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p20060072/SKF-TMMP2x170-Standard-Jaw-Puller/product_info.html


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## anlrolfe (Sep 20, 2017)

Too many variables to account for, dielectric constant from various synthetic & organic oils, conductivity, fuel variants, octane and additives...
If you knew the SG(specific gravity) of the fuel and the oil you could work from there perhaps.


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## plutus (Sep 20, 2017)

@LegDeLimber
Have to search for video but interesting puller thanks.

@anlrolfe
There are lots of methods from burning fuel and analyzing afterproducts to chemical analyzis of each element in the fuel. Specific gravity???? You have to built very expensie device to be able to detect gravity change of raw gas and 50:1 mix. And it will be really big. Specific gravity of gas and mixed oil is almost same may be difference you'll get after 3-4 decimal places but how u gonna detect that to work with?
Method that projecton is using is one of methods.
Tests show great accuracy with oils I wrote but list is expanding. Yesterday worked a bit on code and eliminated calibration at all so now no need to calibrate. Which will reduce cost of the product for 15-20$.


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## plutus (Mar 29, 2018)

As suggested by LegDeLimber posted project on techbriefs.
Check it out if you like you can register and vote for it. They accept 3min video only unfortunately mine is 7mins long on youtube.
http://contest.techbriefs.com/2018/entries/consumer-products/8614


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