# A Curse or a Blessing?



## Gypo Logger (Nov 27, 2015)

I think I enjoyed almost every moment I spent in the bush, and glad I found my calling bust or boom.
Does anyone else regret a moment, or would turn back time if they could?
When it's in your blood, there is nothing you can do about it, except to go back to the woods.
John


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 27, 2015)

no regrets. none at all. i am doing what my father and grandfather did. i will likely be the last.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 27, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> no regrets. none at all. i am doing what my father and grandfather did. i will likely be the last.


Sounds like you're just a chip off the ole block.
John


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## chucker (Nov 27, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> no regrets. none at all. i am doing what my father and grandfather did. i will likely be the last.


pretty much to the end, and the end is coming soon! wait===== till next years cutting starts again! lol does it ever stop or does it just discontinue till the next fall? that's the next tree falling or felling that is..... resembles that tv show "never ending story" or sherri Lewis's song with lamb chops... UMmm baked lamb chop's,,, is this getting old? kinda like cutting wood??


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## SliverPicker (Nov 29, 2015)

Since going out on my own I find myself thinking of quitting quite often these days. When you cut logs and six months later they are still in the landing it gets a bit depressing. When I picture myself doing some other job I get no mental picture at all. I guess I'll keep on...

My grandfathers both worked in the woods. My dad did too, but only for a short few seasons.


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## 1270d (Nov 29, 2015)

Im a third generation logger as well. It sure is an enjoyable line of work. Always something different to figure out and a problem to solve. I worked on construction crews for a few years and that was good too. Just not as much Independence and variety. Six days of the week are for work anyhow so I guess loggings a good fit. Chalk me in the blessing group.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 29, 2015)

Now if I can just make it work full time...


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## SliverPicker (Nov 30, 2015)

I keep thinking the same thing.


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## coltont (Dec 2, 2015)

Heard stories from my dad growing up...... The D4 dozer chained to the front of the duce and a half that was converted to a skidder....... The duce loaded so full the dozer held the front down. That pretty much was the selling point for me. Sounded awesome and it sucked me rite in. Needless to say logging is the only thing I've ever done, and its not even "work" more of a labor of love.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 2, 2015)

coltont said:


> Heard stories from my dad growing up...... The D4 dozer chained to the front of the duce and a half that was converted to a skidder....... The duce loaded so full the dozer held the front down. That pretty much was the selling point for me. Sounded awesome and it sucked me rite in. Needless to say logging is the only thing I've ever done, and its not even "work" more of a labor of love.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


i remember them army trucks, we called um short dogs around here cuz they were shortened. there was a factory conversion done by white owl motor works, i think in the carolinas.


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## coltont (Dec 2, 2015)

Same freakin thing man. White owl short dog. That's what dad always called them to!!

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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 2, 2015)

lol, you the first not from here that knows what a short dog is.


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## coltont (Dec 2, 2015)

Steering wheel the size of a hula hoop. Great big gas engine. Rail road track sections on the front for weight.

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## Deleted member 110241 (Dec 7, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I think I enjoyed almost every moment I spent in the bush, and glad I found my calling bust or boom.
> Does anyone else regret a moment, or would turn back time if they could?
> When it's in your blood, there is nothing you can do about it, except to go back to the woods.
> John



I was 23 when I started in the woods, now I'm 36 and have been out of the bush this year. Had to take a time-out since the grass seemed greener on the other side, turned out to be a mirage so next year I'll be back and if all goes as planned I will be a forester (-ish, it's a bit different over here). 
Your last sentence seems to be very true 

I would have enjoyed working in the town if it wasn't for 2 things, having to go to the same location, driving the same road every day and having to deal with people all day every day 
I'm not into that!


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 7, 2015)

I'm missing the hardwood bush, but can't afford to go back there. It's hard to make living in this bastard growth. Lol


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## GilksTreeFelling (Dec 8, 2015)

I grew up in bc miss the woods out there just a better feeling when I was in them. Now I am stuck on the other Coast till my kids are grown and on their own. Not as much wood but I still love cutting.

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## fool skip (Dec 19, 2015)

Between cutting timber and being blessed with a wonderful wife for 43 years, I wouldn't change a thing. I got busted up pretty bad by a snag after 20 years cutting and figured it was over. After 2 years rehab I bought a cat and became self-employed. My three sons were reaching high school age so I had cheap help for several years. I'm now mostly retired and just help old friends get a few logs out for the spring market. Oh yeah, I don't miss wading the snow and mud!


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 30, 2015)

Markus said:


> I was 23 when I started in the woods, now I'm 36 and have been out of the bush this year. Had to take a time-out since the grass seemed greener on the other side, turned out to be a mirage so next year I'll be back and if all goes as planned I will be a forester (-ish, it's a bit different over here).
> Your last sentence seems to be very true
> 
> I would have enjoyed working in the town if it wasn't for 2 things, having to go to the same location, driving the same road every day and having to deal with people all day every day
> I'm not into that!


I was 27 when I picked up a saw for the first time in 81 and haven't put one down since, except for a short stint in mining.
Last week, I called the guy who hired me 34 long years ago and thanked him. It took at least three stories before he could place me.
Anyway he's working a salvage contract on the Queen Charlotte Islands, a heli operation.
I wanted to ask him for a job there, but I think it would be beyond my experience, but bucking on the landing would suite me fine.


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## tree stump (Jan 1, 2016)

Started out in the woods when I was 15 years old, sshoveling snow around trees so they could cut em down, 20below and the snow was over waist high, am now 69 and while I had a detour in another job for 20 years, retired and am now back in the woods cutting, hope to stay as long as I can walk plus while I was working at my other job every weekend I was cutting,Dad grandpas great grandpas and great great grandpas were in the woods so I guess it is in my blood


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## catbuster (Jan 2, 2016)

I moved from inner city Boston to Louisville Kentucky's bluegrass outskirts in my teens. I worked in property maintence and excavation during high school and fought fires on a 12/12 engine (and eventually ladder) crew. Then between HS and college I fought wildland and got my C sawyer cert. I went back to 12/12 in college and worked nights. After college, I started my own company. 


There are some things I would love to have done differently. But in the end, I don't regret a single thing I've done since I was born in 1986.


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## windthrown (Jan 2, 2016)

An existential thread? 

I spent 20 years behind a desk as an engineer and I had high blood pressure, high cholesterol and I was overweight, even though I hit the gym 4 days a week. Work sucked, commuting sucked, endless meetings sucked, but it payed really really well. The high cost of living in the SF Bay Area was completely insane though. As was life in general there. Then I left the Silicon Valley after a big layoff and severance payout, I sold my house and moved back to Oregon. Since living here I have lived on several large lots of land. I have gone back to falling and chipping, as well and splitting and burning wood for heat and it is a more stress-free life. I also have had several plant and tree nurseries. I am in far better shape now than I ever was behind a desk. I do not make anything near what I did before, but I do not need to. My land, house and truck are paid for in full. I have no debt. I love being outside, even in the rain and snow and mud. 

I have no regrets leaving the Silly Valley. That was a high stress death spiral. Always had to make more to pay higher taxes, buy more crap and go into even more debt.


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## chucker (Jan 2, 2016)

windthrown said:


> An existential thread?
> 
> I spent 20 years behind a desk as an engineer and I had high blood pressure, high cholesterol and I was overweight, even though I hit the gym 4 days a week. Work sucked, commuting sucked, endless meetings sucked, but it payed really really well. The high cost of living in the SF Bay Area was completely insane though. As was life in general there. Then I left the Silicon Valley after a big layoff and severance payout, I sold my house and moved back to Oregon. Since living here I have lived on several large lots of land. I have gone back to falling and chipping, as well and splitting and burning wood for heat and it is a more stress-free life. I also have had several plant and tree nurseries. I am in far better shape now than I ever was behind a desk. I do not make anything near what I did before, but I do not need to. My land, house and truck are paid for in full. I have no debt. I love being outside, even in the rain and snow and mud.
> 
> I have no regrets leaving the Silly Valley. That was a high stress death spiral. Always had to make more to pay higher taxes, buy more crap and go into even more debt.


! "BEWARE OF THE JONE'S" !..... right on.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2016)

It took me 62 years to figure out all I really needed was a tar paper shack in the woods, with a truck, log skidder, a few saws and a dog or too. And of course my homemade hooch. Lol


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## windthrown (Jan 13, 2016)

I live in a dubba wyde out in the boonies here myself. But I have electricity, a paved road my my gravel driveway, and a high speed DSL phone line too. I also have a washer/dryer, a hot tub, a big screen HD TV, a wood stove, and two shops. No dog, but a cat the size of a dog (26 pound tom). I found this place when I was 50. It was a bank foreclosure and I got it for less than the price of the land. It was a crack house and abandoned for 2 years, and it took me 6 months to clean it up before I could move in (re-wired, got the well working, replaced the back door that had a fire axe put through it, and I had to detach the illegal garage that they had added here). I could have bulldozed it and slapped a pre-fab house on it for $100 grand, but I opted to fix what was here for 1/5th of that. My ex brought my cat up here 3 months before I moved in to deal with all the mice and voles in this place. She liked this place even when I was remodeling it, but she ain't living here. I just want sex. She wants a relationship.


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## triathlete123 (Jan 27, 2016)

I've worked in education for 25 years but have always kept a hand in the woods with the exceptions of a few years of down time. If I had to do it all over again? I'd work for myself in the bush full-time, where I would have no "superiors/assholes" over me or even around me, even though the money would be a lot less. I've realized that I have to be in charge of myself (not necessarily of others either) and not let others dictate. Some people are meant to be followers, others need independence. Working in education was the most stressful job and it wasn't the kids, but it paid well and that is what kept me there. Nevertheless, I would trade the good money for peace and independence of working on my own.


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## bitzer (Jan 27, 2016)

triathlete123 said:


> I've worked in education for 25 years but have always kept a hand in the woods with the exceptions of a few years of down time. If I had to do it all over again? I'd work for myself in the bush full-time, where I would have no "superiors/assholes" over me or even around me, even though the money would be a lot less. I've realized that I have to be in charge of myself (not necessarily of others either) and not let others dictate. Some people are meant to be followers, others need independence. Working in education was the most stressful job and it wasn't the kids, but it paid well and that is what kept me there. Nevertheless, I would trade the good money for peace and independence of working on my own.


Unless you were a college professor i made more last year than any teacher i know.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 27, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Unless you were a college professor i made more last year than any teacher i know.


Can you match their pension/retirement payouts? In fact, I don't think many of the state funds are fully funded either. Many are just another unsustainable ponzi scheme looking for a cliff to leap off.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 27, 2016)

triathlete123 said:


> I've worked in education for 25 years but have always kept a hand in the woods with the exceptions of a few years of down time. If I had to do it all over again? I'd work for myself in the bush full-time, where I would have no "superiors/assholes" over me or even around me, even though the money would be a lot less. I've realized that I have to be in charge of myself (not necessarily of others either) and not let others dictate. Some people are meant to be followers, others need independence. Working in education was the most stressful job and it wasn't the kids, but it paid well and that is what kept me there. Nevertheless, I would trade the good money for peace and independence of working on my own.


A darn 'conflicted' way to travel through life that many of us suffer. I'm trying to transition to the woods from IT. Almost there, but the wood work isn't paying its way yet. Very tricky juggling things.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 27, 2016)

Having no boss is nice in a way, but the stress from being your own boss isn't something everyone can do. There isn't really a "9 to 5" if you want your business to do well. I generally work around 80+ hrs a week.


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## triathlete123 (Jan 28, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> A darn 'conflicted' way to travel through life that many of us suffer. I'm trying to transition to the woods from IT. Almost there, but the wood work isn't paying its way yet. Very tricky juggling things.



From a philosophical view, I think we need change in our life, for we know that life is about change and I think change is healthy, particularly in what we do for a living. I know that I would go mad if I had to do the same thing all my life, if I'm not there already. But I like to control that change, rather than have others control it. I am far too independent to have others control my life, whether it's a "boss", company, or wife. I know when it is time to move on from things.


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## triathlete123 (Jan 28, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Unless you were a college professor i made more last year than any teacher i know.



Then you must have made over $100,000 every single year for the last 25 years, in today's dollars.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 28, 2016)

Teachers and their wages... do they know its public record? And every time they strike which is every time there is a contract reveiw, the papers publish how much they make and presto the strike is over...


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## triathlete123 (Jan 28, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Teachers and their wages... do they know its public record? And every time they strike which is every time there is a contract reveiw, the papers publish how much they make and presto the strike is over...



What people make, what they ought to make, and how you and I feel about it is another matter. The OP asked for our thoughts about working in the forestry industry and if we had any regrets. Windthrown turned the question around and I replied.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 28, 2016)

Its the whining they make about being so poorly paid... so they strike to make more money, better benefits etc, then you find out they are sometimes getting 6 figures, full health care, pension etc... yet they tell everyone they make less then 40k a year? 

Whether they deserve what they make isn't up to me nor do i care, its the flat out lying to everyone about being so under paid that gets me.


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## windthrown (Jan 29, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> Can you match their pension/retirement payouts? In fact, I don't think many of the state funds are fully funded either. Many are just another unsustainable ponzi scheme looking for a cliff to leap off.



Most states are under funded and they issue bonds to pay it out. At the federal level Social Security funds have been raided and remain unfunded. But then the fed just cranks out more fiat currency and we run a massive debt to pay it out, bankrupting the future. As long as interest rates stay low, the scheme will work. But...


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## northmanlogging (Jan 29, 2016)

By the way, thanks to all you boomers, I'll never get to retire.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 30, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Most states are under funded and they issue bonds to pay it out. At the federal level Social Security funds have been raided and remain unfunded. But then the fed just cranks out more fiat currency and we run a massive debt to pay it out, bankrupting the future. As long as interest rates stay low, the scheme will work. But...


Last I read it was an epic clusterphuck of $65 trillion in unfunded liabilities all up, with the largest 25 public pensions underfunded by about $2 trillion. Just how any generation can steal so much from future generations and still not be swinging from the nearest tall branches, bleeding out from pitchfork marks and bullet wounds, beats me.


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## bitzer (Jan 30, 2016)

triathlete123 said:


> Then you must have made over $100,000 every single year for the last 25 years, in today's dollars.


My point was maybe you wouldn't be making a lot less like you're thinking. 25 years ago i was in third grade. Not sure why thats relevant to what i said about last year. I cut 1.2 million board feet last year at an average of $115 per thousand board feet. After expenses i will be sitting right around that 100k. Nearly everything i own is paid for (other than the house). No i don't have a retirement fund set up yet (i don't really plan on retiring. What else would i do?), and health insurance can be a problem, but i live on my own terms. I refuse to be a fool dancing on a string. And when its my son's turn he'll be the one to hold the string.


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## triathlete123 (Jan 30, 2016)

bitzer said:


> My point was maybe you wouldn't be making a lot less like you're thinking. 25 years ago i was in third grade. Not sure why thats relevant to what i said about last year. I cut 1.2 million board feet last year at an average of $115 per thousand board feet. After expenses i will be sitting right around that 100k. Nearly everything i own is paid for (other than the house). No i don't have a retirement fund set up yet (i don't really plan on retiring. What else would i do?), and health insurance can be a problem, but i live on my own terms. I refuse to be a fool dancing on a string. And when its my son's turn he'll be the one to hold the string.



I used a long term perspective (the last 25 years), for the wages in the industry can vary widely year from year and I assumed you were much older. I don't think I know of a person who works in the bush grossing a $100k/year, even in a good year. I would guess that most would be lucky to make about half of that in the long term here in Ontario. But as you point out, you are your own boss, which some people can't put a price on. I've often felt, however, that loggers are under-paid, over-worked, and highly skilled professionals.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 30, 2016)

bitz, 100,000? you gotta have more deductions brother lol.


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## bitzer (Jan 30, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> bitz, 100,000? you gotta have more deductions brother lol.


Well... it gets creative. Lots of firewood sold if ya know what i mean.


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## bitzer (Jan 30, 2016)

triathlete123 said:


> I used a long term perspective (the last 25 years), for the wages in the industry can vary widely year from year and I assumed you were much older. I don't think I know of a person who works in the bush grossing a $100k/year, even in a good year. I would guess that most would be lucky to make about half of that in the long term here in Ontario. But as you point out, you are your own boss, which some people can't put a price on. I've often felt, however, that loggers are under-paid, over-worked, and highly skilled professionals.


According to the local paper the mean salary for woods workers in WI was 37k. I don't know what that includes, but that is employees. I don't know the mean for the owner/operator. Even at what i make it still feels under paid. A typical semi load of logs pays about 600 bucks. Theres a lot of work, ugly situations, and equipment issues in every load. I typically average a load and a half a day. Two loads in better timber. When i got started i thought that would never be possible.


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## bitzer (Jan 30, 2016)

Oh and que the godfather theme.


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## windthrown (Jan 30, 2016)

bitzer said:


> My point was maybe you wouldn't be making a lot less like you're thinking. 25 years ago i was in third grade. Not sure why thats relevant to what i said about last year. I cut 1.2 million board feet last year at an average of $115 per thousand board feet. After expenses i will be sitting right around that 100k. Nearly everything i own is paid for (other than the house). No i don't have a retirement fund set up yet (i don't really plan on retiring. What else would i do?), and health insurance can be a problem, but i live on my own terms. I refuse to be a fool dancing on a string. And when its my son's turn he'll be the one to hold the string.



Yah, that is what, $138k gross income? Sounds reasonable. You should start a KEOGH retirement plan though. Keep as much income untaxed as you can and invest it.


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## 1270d (Jan 30, 2016)

I would say the range for employees logging here in Upper Michigan is 30-60k with some benefits. Owner/operators have had a few good years lately what with fuel being down and not much in the way of production quota's. 

Verso paper owns the two biggest mills here, and just filed chapter 11 bankruptcy. Hopefully they come out of it stronger and our industry continues full bore.


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## bitzer (Jan 31, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Yah, that is what, $138k gross income? Sounds reasonable. You should start a KEOGH retirement plan though. Keep as much income untaxed as you can and invest it.


I know. Amazing how fast the money goes.


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