# Stihl going to NGK plugs?



## ClearH20Scott (Mar 28, 2003)

I have purchased two new MS440's in the past three months or
so, both machines have had NGK BPMR7A's screwed into them.
This doesn't bother me so much, but I thought that Bosch was 
all that they sent out in new machines. I bought a couple of 
WSR6F's to replace them and had another surprise, the plugs 
and the packaging said "Made in India". I have also run into
Indonesian NGK's. Anyone else noticed this? 
I brought it up to the dealer and he said that it was news to him.
He said Stihl school told him that anything other than Bosch 
could fry the ig module. I hope that's hogwash, but who knows.
Just a heads up I guess, I brought the Indian made plugs back,
and had him rifle through his supply for some German made.
The dealer was none too pleased when I showed him, he said
he was going to send them all back, and have no fear, I'll have
the German made plugs in next time you stop in.........


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## sedanman (Mar 28, 2003)

I have seen a few smaller Stihl come through with Champions........YUCK! I've seen the recommended plug listed as Bosch WSR6F OR NGK BPMR7A as far back as my '93ish 026.


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## ClearH20Scott (Mar 28, 2003)

Sedan,

The 440 manual calls out both as acceptable, that's what made
me kinda chuckle when the dealer made the ignition module
comment. These are the first brand new Stihl saws I have 
purchased since the late 80's. It was weird to not see a 6F in
there. I guess I'm just behind the times. Champion though,
as Charlie Brown would say UUUGGGGHHHH!!!!


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## Tony Snyder (Mar 29, 2003)

I am not aware of any problem with NGKs. The only brand of plug I have hade problems with was Champion, and that was several years ago.


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## mikek711 (Mar 29, 2003)

Just wondering whats wrong with Champion plugs?
Mike.


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## Fish (Mar 29, 2003)

Absolutely nothing wrong with Champion plugs. I still get
Bosch for those purists that insist on them, but I see far more
saws that come in with a fouled out plug have Boschs in them,
so I switched to champion. 
Before, I had customers buying 3-4 Boshes at a time because
they were fouling out on them in the field, now that they have 
switched to Champion, they rarely have any trouble.
Granted, the real cause of the plugs fouling may be dirty
filters, cheap oil mix, bad gas, etc.., but the Champions hold up better against this.
I would make more money and sell more plugs if I pushed the
Bosch plugs.


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## dozerdan (Mar 29, 2003)

Fish is correct,there is nothing wrong with champion plugs.At one time though,I wouldn't have agreed with him.In the late 70s or 80s they did have some major problems with there plugs.If I was to do a tune up on a vehicle with champion plugs,it wasn't uncommon to find 4 out of 8 show up bad on an oscilloscope.At that time they started to get a very bad reputation.That is when they started to manufacture the copper plus line of there plugs,they work out very well.
And why wouldn't they?
Later
Dan


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## Striker (Mar 29, 2003)

Chain saw, to keep on topic. The last time i bought champion plugs, three years ago, two out of six were bad. I'm glad others have had better luck than I have.


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## ClearH20Scott (Mar 29, 2003)

I was going off of past experience with the Champs, I honestly
haven't had one go bad lately, because I don't use them.
Fish, did you happen to see where the fouled Bosch plugs were
manufactered, just curious if there's a correlation. I assume that
Champs are just fine, as long as they aren't manufactured 
somewhere that there is little QC. I recall the Autolite plugs
were not anything to brag about either 10 or 15 years back.


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## Toneman (Mar 29, 2003)

Why do you care where the plugs are made?

India or Germany, plugs are still made to the same standards using the same equipment. The "flavour of the month" these days for companies is to move to "low cost" manufacture countries such as India, China, or Malyasia. All design would still come out of the home country.


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## ClearH20Scott (Mar 29, 2003)

Toneman,

The engineering may be the same, but what about the QC
standards employed? If what you say is true, that manufacturing
is being moved to save cost, you've just answered your own
question. Quality will and does suffer, I don't mean to say that
just because it's made in India it's bad, but I wonder about
the suppliers that the plant in India uses. Is the ceramic and
the electrode the same as the German made plug? I don't know,
but I'll bet not. How about the steel? 
I'm a manufacturing buyer by trade, I deal with these issues all
day. I have parts that come from Singapore, Taiwan, Germany,
etc., that are among the best in the world. I have also been
burned by "equivalents", so when I buy something, I have this
horrible habit of looking at where it was made. 
I would love to know that all Bosch/NGK/Champ plugs are made
to the same standards, I'm just not that trusting. Good rant for
Saturday morning if nothing else.


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## Toneman (Mar 29, 2003)

ClearH20Scott

I am an Engineer in the Automotive Industry, and we a seeing a great deal of this "lower cost" country manufacture. I agree that we can easily get burned by some of these companies there, but from what I have seen so far, any company such as NGK, Champion, etc... still has their name on it and will take the required steps to make sure that the products are made to the highest standards possible. This includes the raw materials that are used to make each product.

What frightens me, is that these countries can produce, sell, and supposedly, make a profit by selling their products for about 1/2 or in some cases 1/3 of what a North American company can sell their products for.


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## sedanman (Mar 29, 2003)

My predjudice against Champion plugs is old, I agree, but well earned. I used to work at a Subaru dealership. Subarus are mostly boxer engines (horizontally opposed). Because of this engine layout and Subarus manufacturing techniques many engines got built with two different brand plugs in them, Champions in one cyl head and NGKs in the other. If we had a problem with one of these cars fouling plugs on the lot (happens from moving cars around the lot frequently and not lettting anything warm up) it was ALWAYS the side with the Champions that was fouled. I can get Champions for next to nothing from work but will only run NGKs in my gas burning vehicles and either NGKs or Bosch in my power equipment.


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## JimL (Mar 29, 2003)

Bosch wsr6f and i think wsr7f are the only plugs i use in stihl equipment for the most part. never have any trouble.


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## ClearH20Scott (Mar 29, 2003)

Toneman,

Agreed, I don't know how some of these facilities/companies can
make it either. Some of the overseas pricing I'm getting these
days on certain things like stepper motors is scary low. Thirty
bucks five years ago, unit cost right around ten today for the same part. Quality unwavering, delivery on time, etc...
I also agree that the larger companies who care about their rep
should keep putting out a quality product, regardless of Mfg.
location. I just hope that they don't employ different standards
and testing for the same parts.



Sedan,

Does Subaru still use that flat four?


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## Crofter (Mar 29, 2003)

The trend to production offshore is happening in all industries. In the short term the North American consumer is getting cheap goods, but I think he better start developing a taste for rice and beans and riding a bicycle. Eventually it will be the only way we can compete and then we wont have to worry about what kind of sparkplug to put in our bucksaws will we?

Gloom, Despair, and Agony on me.

Frank


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## sedanman (Mar 29, 2003)

ClearH20Scott, Yes they do, well an updated verion of it anyway. Paul


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## Fish (Mar 29, 2003)

I have not noted nor cared, if the bad plugs were made, here or
there, just noted a trend in the past 4 years. Since my recent
good luck with Champion, and their use on most equipment,
and a superior application catalog, makes me opt for them
everytime.
If one gets in a snit about every possible tangent of life,
life could be a living heck{or whatever}.
I made my post knowing full well that sparkplug brand choice
is more volatile than the pro-life/vs./murder debate.

Just thought I would throw that in, as I am officially the
instigator....

Actually, I am making no stand on that subject, just starting
trouble.


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## Grateful11 (Mar 29, 2003)

One of the problems I have with all this import stuff is that they manufacture it overseas and sell it here for the same price as they were when they made them here. Take shoe companies for example, they use to just about all be made here but now they make them in Indonesia or China and they seem to be charging the same now as they did then. Another company example is Delta Tools, almost all of their woodworking equipment is made in Taiwan or mainland China but they charge more now than ever for their heavier equipment. 

Another problem I have is, have you ever seen the cast iron grain of a broken machine tool from China? It looks like the coarseness of creek sand, nothing like good quality Mehanite castings that machine tools that were made here used. Delta claims if they don't keep US inspectors in the overseas factories that they will try and get away with anything they can if no one is watching over them.
Grateful


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 29, 2003)

I'm really going to show my ignorance here, but aren't spark plugs just some real cheap glass with a threaded peice of metal on the outside, and a little rod of metal on the inside?
I've only been having two strokes around me for 30 years or so, and in that time I only have had spark plug problems about a half dozen times, almost exclusively on snowmobiles, and then I just dried them out and they were fine. Never on a chain saw, and I have not owened less than six saws in the last 12 years.
One time I put a plug in crooked, it wrecked the head, but the plug was fine.
Another time, I didn't use a plug wrench and broke the glass part off.
What else can go wrong? Does the metal rust or something? Does the glass start to conduct electricity?
Oh, oh, I know, The little thingy un screws off the tip and gets lost?


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## Fish (Mar 29, 2003)

I break it down into the simplest form. Remove the plug then 
put the wire end back onto the plug and lay against the block
of the engine and then pull the rope. If no spark, then try a new
plug, if no spark then, a new coil


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## Fish (Mar 30, 2003)

One would think that as simple of a concept and design of a
plug, they would spark no matter what. I have seen those
junk plugs from China, with only the word "Lawnmower"
on the ceramic, not produce a spark right from the box, so what
and where the breakdown occurs at on them is unknown.
On the better plugs, when they fail, they can usually be reused
by sticking them into a wire wheel on the grinder, meaning that
they must be coated by a conductive residue, probably from
using premium fuel.
I do not do this to plugs as a regular practice, I just pop in a
new one.


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## daveb (Mar 30, 2003)

*spark plugs*

I wonder because of the simple design of the spark plug, that problems some have with different brands, is not the plugs fault, but possible mis-application of the manufacturer. What I mean is the application guide(catalog) may not be specing the correct plug for the intended use, wrong heat range, electrode depth, etc.


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## ClearH20Scott (Mar 30, 2003)

It's a good point Dave, I wonder how many people also actually
check the gap on new plugs. I'm sure that it doesn't 
matter that much, and I'm sure that my plug choice doesn't 
matter that much either. I don't really care what anyone else 
uses either for that matter. My new plug of choice is going to be
Motorcraft, no wait, AC Delco sounds better. Hopefully made in
Canada.


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## Tony Snyder (Mar 30, 2003)

I got a little lesson from the service manager at the local Ford dealers several years back. He didn't like Champion spark plugs. 

We went to the trash can and picked out several discarded plugs, all brands. He started breaking apart plugs, (now here is where you gatta pay attention)At least half of the Champions broken aparts had a coiled spring in them that was supposed to make contact between the center electrode and the cap, many of them were burned in two and were just rattling around in there causing the ignition to have to jump a big gap. Other brands of plugs were made with a solid rod (resester element)welded up thru there.

I do not know if Chanpion still makes plugs this way. That was 20 years ago. That is the only trouble I ever had with plugs (early 80s)I use champions today just because they are the easiest to get.


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## Crofter (Mar 30, 2003)

Tony: If you tuned your radio off station you could pick up the rf created when the spark jumped that gap. I seem to remember something about Champion having left that design behind and no more trouble. The proper heat range for your particular operating conditions is what counts not brand.

Frank


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## treeguy347 (Mar 30, 2003)

Does Bosch make the Platinum +4 in the size for chainsaws, if so, is it worth it to use 'em On my old truck, they sure made a difference.


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## My2cents (Mar 31, 2003)

Hey, What about the Spitfires? I thought for sure many of you would be using them. Aren't they up to 4 or 5 electrodes these days?


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## Fish (Mar 31, 2003)

Dave, I am starting to worry. Your avaattaar is getting to me.
Doug, bring yours back please.


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## bass_on_tap (Apr 1, 2003)

*interesting reading*

I found this link on spark plugs, albeit from an automotive site, still interesting reading.

http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp


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## Greg Carberry (Apr 2, 2003)

No problems yet with Champions. I even have many in old saws that are who knows how old and work just fine. Champions are good in equipment that isnt properly tuned as I think Fish said. They don't foul as easy as others. NGK's will foul very badly in too rich mixture conditions. So I would think as long as your equipment is running right most any plug will do the job.


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## stihltech (Apr 2, 2003)

*plugs*

Mine is an old prejudice, dating back to 056's that had Champions from the factory and hesitated on acceleration. All fixed by putting in a Bosch plug.
Are they better now? Could be. But the Bosch has served me well for 20 years, so I will stay with it.
However, If I think I have a spark problem, the FIRST thing I will do is try another plug. That thing has to throw a good spark 14000 times a minute. Not much room for error.


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