# Trajectile Dysfunction



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

I am humbly coming to you guys (and Slowp) for some help and advice. I am neither a logger nor a forester, and I realize I contribute nothing to the logging forum (it sure is fun, though), but you guys know your ####, and I need some help. I generally cut down (to call what I do "falling" would be an insult to fallers!) about 20-30 sizeable trees a year which we are losing to the drougt and the bark beetles. Usually, most have fallen more or less where I wanted, but last year I hit two seperate fence lines, and took a big limb off a really nice live oak with "unenforced errors." During my "off season" last fall and winter, I stumbled on Arborist site, watched lots of videos and read Douglas Dent's falling book once I realized what I had learned from my father about falling 30 years ago was not exactly textbook.
This afternoon I cut down my first tree of the season, and made a video of what I did with the intent of asking y'all for help. The pine had a pretty good lean right towards a fence line, but the top looked like it would pull it the other way.
[video=youtube;r_NfLicsNyo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_NfLicsNyo[/video]

I will admit I was secretly hoping that it would be a perfect execution, and I'd look all cool, and RandyMac would not want to set me on fire, but amateur is as amateur does. Mistakes I see right off the bat, way too deep a face. It was leaning pretty good, and I didn't want it to barberchair, so I wanted a decent face, but I just overshot with bad aim. When it started to go, it did not do so gently, and I ran away like a 6 year old girl from a spider. Hopefully my muffler mod hid my high-pitched squealing while I ran.

I am asking you guys to take a look at what I did and offer me advice on my technique and thinking, based on what you see to make me a better/safer tree cutter-downer. I know my limitations, and never attempt to cut down something that could potentially hit a house/barn etc. I have been married for 15 years and consequently can withstand a veritable mountain of criticism, constructive and otherwise, so fire away. Thanks in advance for your time, which I realize could be better spent, and Bob, I promise to never compare you to Wilford Brimley ever again.
Jon


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> I am humbly coming to you guys (and Slowp) for some help and advice. I am neither a logger nor a forester, and I realize I contribute nothing to the logging forum (it sure is fun, though), but you guys know your ####, and I need some help. I generally cut down (to call what I do "falling" would be an insult to fallers!) about 20-30 sizeable trees a year which we are losing to the drougt and the bark beetles. Usually, most have fallen more or less where I wanted, but last year I hit two seperate fence lines, and took a big limb off a really nice live oak with "unenforced errors." During my "off season" last fall and winter, I stumbled on Arborist site, watched lots of videos and read Douglas Dent's falling book once I realized what I had learned from my father about falling 30 years ago was not exactly textbook.
> This afternoon I cut down my first tree of the season, and made a video of what I did with the intent of asking y'all for help. The pine had a pretty good lean right towards a fence line, but the top looked like it would pull it the other way.
> [video=youtube;r_NfLicsNyo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_NfLicsNyo[/video]
> 
> ...


Not randy man but saw looked dull and yes way too deep also back away from stump without turning your back to the tree. If your unsure a rope or cable tensioned in the direction you want it to go can save even the best fallers grief. I know it's not as cool to fell it with pull line but it can save fixing a fence.


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 5, 2013)

I usually stand at base of tree and can tell where it wants to go some use plumb bobs me I just read the top and compression wood and tension wood. Those curved ones can fool ya easy but usually want to follow the top not always though!


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 5, 2013)

If you had not notched it so deep you could of backed up your cut with a wedge!


----------



## madhatte (Apr 5, 2013)

Couple things I see. BEFORE ANYTHING -- look up, man! That's where the danger is!

First thing is that, oddly enough, it was your over-deep face cut that put the stem where your intended lay was, rather than the "step Dutchman". You cut it far enough back that it was past its center-of-gravity and unable to follow its natural lean. I have lost a couple that way due to fire damage and had to book it when the buttresses collapsed. This is not criticism of technique but rather of theory -- you did one of several exact right things, but on accident. Last wekend I put down a few beetle-killed fir for a friend and made the exact opposite mistake -- I knew it was leaning opposite my intended lay, so I put my back cut in first, snugged up the wedges, and then put in the face cut. Problem was that I ran out of wedge lift before I had pushed it past the center-of-gravity -- it hung there balanced, no room for another wedge, until we bumped it with a tractor. Long/short: understand what the face is for, use accordingly, adjust as necessary.

Second: tricky cuts come after solid fundamentals. Don't fret pounding wedges. You'll get tired, sure, but you'll learn what works and what doesn't. You can lift almost anything with wedges... at the expense of your back and shoulders. Do that first. 

Third: sharpen that damn chain! You want to spend as little time under moving wood as possible, and a sharp chain is the easiest way to do that. 

Fourth: your steps were into the flat part of the face. They won't compress there. If you want to put them on the bottom, use a Humboldt. Otherwise, put them on the top. If they can't compress, the stem won't use them to shift its weight. 

Finally: good on you reading up, listening, participating, and asking for input. Yer one of us.


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 5, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Couple things I see. BEFORE ANYTHING -- look up, man! That's where the danger is!
> 
> First thing is that, oddly enough, it was your over-deep face cut that put the stem where your intended lay was, rather than the "step Dutchman". You cut it far enough back that it was past its center-of-gravity and unable to follow its natural lean. I have lost a couple that way due to fire damage and had to book it when the buttresses collapsed. This is not criticism of technique but rather of theory -- you did one of several exact right things, but on accident. Last wekend I put down a few beetle-killed fir for a friend and made the exact opposite mistake -- I knew it was leaning opposite my intended lay, so I put my back cut in first, snugged up the wedges, and then put in the face cut. Problem was that I ran out of wedge lift before I had pushed it past the center-of-gravity -- it hung there balanced, no room for another wedge, until we bumped it with a tractor. Long/short: understand what the face is for, use accordingly, adjust as necessary.
> 
> ...



Mad I get the deep notch helping bring it where it landed but it can also chair going too deep if too much force is against you ever see one go back before the back cut is made by cutting too deep ?


----------



## madhatte (Apr 5, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> Mad I get the deep notch helping bring it where it landed but it can also chair going too deep if too much force is against you ever see one go back before the back cut is made by cutting too deep ?



General rule: yes. In this case, the deep face is why it fell as planned. The wood behind the hinge was strong enough, and the weight back enough, that it didn't chair. This particular tree was an exception rather than a rule. I would not have planned it like this but it worked and we can watch and see that these are the reasons why.


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 5, 2013)

madhatte said:


> General rule: yes. In this case, the deep face is why it fell as planned. The wood behind the hinge was strong enough, and the weight back enough, that it didn't chair. This particular tree was an exception rather than a rule. I would not have planned it like this but it worked and we can watch and see that these are the reasons why.




yeah I know it helped it along top weight may have a bit too. I think likely it would of worked with less and a wedge as well but I agree with you. I also meant to say back away and look up lol


----------



## madhatte (Apr 5, 2013)

All of the above but mostly



ropensaddle said:


> look up



I probably sound like I'm talking in circles but I truly believe that watching the top is important. It shows movement when the tree is going to come down, it's where (most of) the danger comes from, and it's sort of inherently hard to remember to pay attention to when you have a big ol' saw in your hands trying to do whatever it wants to. Finesse tricks come after the basic stuff has become automatic. Watch the pros watching the top -- those guys don't waste energy. If it wasn't important, they'd find another way to do it. Even a loose wedge used as a bobber doesn't substitute for good situational awareness -- it just offers one more thing to indicate movement.


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 5, 2013)

Can I set you on fire?


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> Not randy man but saw looked dull and yes way too deep also back away from stump without turning your back to the tree. If your unsure a rope or cable tensioned in the direction you want it to go can save even the best fallers grief. I know it's not as cool to fell it with pull line but it can save fixing a fence.





madhatte said:


> Couple things I see. BEFORE ANYTHING -- look up, man! That's where the danger is!
> 
> First thing is that, oddly enough, it was your over-deep face cut that put the stem where your intended lay was, rather than the "step Dutchman". You cut it far enough back that it was past its center-of-gravity and unable to follow its natural lean. I have lost a couple that way due to fire damage and had to book it when the buttresses collapsed. This is not criticism of technique but rather of theory -- you did one of several exact right things, but on accident. Last wekend I put down a few beetle-killed fir for a friend and made the exact opposite mistake -- I knew it was leaning opposite my intended lay, so I put my back cut in first, snugged up the wedges, and then put in the face cut. Problem was that I ran out of wedge lift before I had pushed it past the center-of-gravity -- it hung there balanced, no room for another wedge, until we bumped it with a tractor. Long/short: understand what the face is for, use accordingly, adjust as necessary.
> 
> ...





templar said:


> The first thing is you are man enough to admit your mistakes and see what you did wrong and that is a great asset and how you'll learn. Being honest is an important thing.
> 
> 
> I can't add anything to what the guys have said already apart from if your having issues with the depth of face cut then mark it out ie depth etc it will giv you a visual point of reference. Maybe you could try putting the top cut in first as it may be easier to judge your depth then do the undercut (only a suggestion) You could have started the back cut on the bad side and wedged it there before walking the saw round (although this wouldn't have been possible here due to the depth of face). Personally with the open face I back it up a bit higher but that just me. Look up it is important to watch the crown it'll give ya the first sign of movement and never turn your back.
> ...



Thank you guys very much, this is all great advice. You guys have no idea how badly I wanted the tree to start falling, and settle to the ground gently, with me calmly backing away with my saw off looking cool. The tree was triangularly shaped at the base with the face in the point and the backcut on the opposite side which probably made it all happen faster. When I started the back cut I figured I would have several more inches of wood to cut through before it started moving. When it did, I tried to hit the left side holding wood hard to help it steer to the right. My logical brain said this will not barberchair, but when that pop came, and it was as loud as a 
.223, my fight/flight brain was sure the whole thing was splitting, and I ran screaming and crying. Great advice on the top cut first to better judge depth, that alone will help alot.

The chain wasn't as bad as it looked, and here's where I need more help. When I bucked that up, it moves through the wood with no problems, but when I make face/back cuts the 42" bar bends, and leaves me with a subtle "frown" looking cut that constantly seems to bind the chain forcing me to rock it back and forth to hit any wood. Any tips for that, or am I just talking crazy?
Thanks again, and Templar, you're awesome. I take zero offense in being told how to do things better, especially when I am asking you experienced fallers how to do it better. Please don't tell Philbert I wasn't wearing chaps, I don't think I could take him being disappointed in me.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> Can I set you on fire?



I would be honored!


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2013)

Ya did fine, undercut was a bit ambitious but in this case it probably saved yer neck. 

Stop and look, its ok to restart a cut in a different direction, as long as you have not gone to far. Makes for ugly stumps, but I'd rather have an ugly stump then an ugly house/fence line, or broken up wood 

When I make a dutchmen block I stuff it into the face cut, I don't just let it hang out, figure its better to make it start working as soon as the tree starts to move, and not delay the effect, just my opinion. (this bit was hard to say without sounding snooty... so posh...:msp_unsure D Dent mentioned using rocks as dutchmen? I'm a think'n hacking a bit of the face cut is by far safer... saws don't like to cut rocks,:msp_ohmy:

And LOOK UP!!!

As far as the bar is concerned, are ya running .404? if not that will help a little bit, or ditch that orygone wiggle stick and get a stihl bar, they seem to be a lot stiffer... you could also try running the chain just a touch looser, keeps it from binding up so bad, down side is you will tend to throw chains more often.

and ditch that sledge hammer and get a 3-4 pound axe with a stubby handle, worst case you can always chop your saw free if it sets back hard... or chop out those big ugly face chunks.


----------



## mdavlee (Apr 5, 2013)

Most 42" bars are flimsy. Maybe back down to a 33-36" bar for more control over the bar. I know it's hindsight but you can always make the face deeper if you need to. It's real hard to make it not so deep as in this case. Looking up and not watching the saw is something that is odd at first. The saw is going to do what you're telling it to do with your hands.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya did fine, undercut was a bit ambitious but in this case it probably saved yer neck.
> 
> Stop and look, its ok to restart a cut in a different direction, as long as you have not gone to far. Makes for ugly stumps, but I'd rather have an ugly stump then an ugly house/fence line, or broken up wood
> 
> ...





mdavlee said:


> Most 42" bars are flimsy. Maybe back down to a 33-36" bar for more control over the bar. I know it's hindsight but you can always make the face deeper if you need to. It's real hard to make it not so deep as in this case. Looking up and not watching the saw is something that is odd at first. The saw is going to do what you're telling it to do with your hands.





templar said:


> I agree with you there buddy chains don't like rocks and cutting a block outta the face slab is what I do I'd be real upset if I hit a rock lol........seriously sticking the block hard up so it starts working quicker is sound advice as I have seen the block move when further out. Also (imo) I feel that if your gonna do that then why would you want the action it gives to be delayed .....maybe my brain don't work that fast to judge delayed reaction.
> 
> 
> I never carry a sledge I always carry an ax it more useful and we all had to cut out pinched saws lol
> ...



Thanks for the help Northman. If you look at the ground at the start of the video, the sledge will be explained! I broke my axe wedging the previous tree, and walk all the way back to the shed to get a sledge.

I did read about the rock, and saw a video of a man using one, but there are no rocks in southeast texas, so I busted off a piece of the face. I wasn't sure whether to snug it up or leave it a few inches away, so thanks for setting me straight on this.

Thanks mdavlee, I always enjoy your insight on things. I really like doing everything from one side of the tree. This tree turned out to be too big even for the 42" to reach all the way across, so I would have been better served with my 28"

Do you guys think this freshly dead pine with a decent but not severe lean would have barberchaired with the 40% face I was intending? I can bore OK if I take my time at the start, but I didn't think it was needed here. Obviously when you make a massive facecut (by accident) there is no room for boring, but if I face the next one like this properly, would you recommend boring out some of the holding wood before beginning the back cut?

Madhatte: Thanks for all the time you took with this. I'm forced to admit what you are saying is a little over my head. From a thinking/planning standpoint, how would you have approached this tree to get it to do what you want, safely, and not by accident?

You guys are great, thanks again for your advice


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2013)

I figure if the block action is delayed it may not work at all, objects in motion tend to stay in motion...

I'm still playing with different swing techniques, trying to find the one that works the best... not sure there really is one, but I do like the block method, works too good sometimes:msp_scared: 

Only heard of the siswheel after I joined this site, as well as the soft dutch. 

I tried using the siswheel with a kerf dutch last saturday on a center rotted maple, unknown to me it was being taped so of course it didn't work... bastard broke out as I was reaching for a wedge...still had 6-7" of wood on a 14" tree. still went more or less where I wanted it (not on a house:msp_biggrin I would have posted it on here but the camera timed out just before I made the back cut... so all you would get to see is my large ass 6' up a funky stump playing with my saw...


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Thanks mdavlee, I always enjoy your insight on things. I really like doing everything from one side of the tree. This tree turned out to be too big even for the 42" to reach all the way across, so I would have been better served with my 28"
> 
> Do you guys think this freshly dead pine with a decent but not severe lean would have barberchaired with the 40% face I was intending? I can bore OK if I take my time at the start, but I didn't think it was needed here. Obviously when you make a massive facecut (by accident) there is no room for boring, but if I face the next one like this properly, would you recommend boring out some of the holding wood before beginning the back cut?



It might have... you really never know, I would have risked it and gone for a standard back cut, or if I was concerned a bit use a coos bay... In my mind the gol plunge cut swedish timber dance method is really only needed on the hard leaners, that are prone to chair (alders and maples come to mind out here cedars too)

You could get away with falling that beast with a 32 or 36" bar without plunging both sides, just dog in and use the tip to establish your holding wood on the offside, takes a bit of practice to get it right but is way faster than plunging and lets you stay mostly on the one side of the tree, unless its a really big sob. There is a section in pro timber falling that kind of explains it...


----------



## twochains (Apr 5, 2013)

I hate to give advice on a forum with alot of Pro loggers, plus different situations can void advice. What I do for really bad head leaners is this, it takes a little practice but here it goes:

Skip the face cut completely, plunge straight in and cut to the front, cutting the heart completely out, leaving a small amount of holding wood (like an inch or till the weight of the tree starts tightening on your bar), then cut back leaving a trigger on the back side, bring your saw out and pop the trigger. The snip on the front (if done right) will usually tear down the stump.

Caution: you must be right with the lean. If you leave too much on the front...it can chair a bit. 

disclaimer...just my .02 cents :msp_w00t:


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 5, 2013)

twochains said:


> I hate to give advice on a forum with alot of Pro loggers, plus different situations can void advice. What I do for really bad head leaners is this, it takes a little practice but here it goes:
> 
> Skip the face cut completely, plunge straight in and cut to the front, cutting the heart completely out, leaving a small amount of holding wood (like an inch or till the weight of the tree starts tightening on your bar), then cut back leaving a trigger on the back side, bring your saw out and pop the trigger. The snip on the front (if done right) will usually tear down the stump.
> 
> ...



oh dear.


----------



## twochains (Apr 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> oh dear.



See...I knew I shouldn't have said nothin'. Oh well, it works...dangerous...but it works. I saw a guy win a $100 from a disbeliever if the tree didn't chair. Like I said, just my .02 cents.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

twochains said:


> I hate to give advice on a forum with alot of Pro loggers, plus different situations can void advice. What I do for really bad head leaners is this, it takes a little practice but here it goes:
> 
> Skip the face cut completely, plunge straight in and cut to the front, cutting the heart completely out, leaving a small amount of holding wood (like an inch or till the weight of the tree starts tightening on your bar), then cut back leaving a trigger on the back side, bring your saw out and pop the trigger. The snip on the front (if done right) will usually tear down the stump.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, you get paid to fall trees, so in my book you are a pro faller! It may just be my low testosterone talking, but I don't think I'd have the balls for that. I am not doubting that you make it work, and I'd love to see a video. Just not with your helmet cam, cause it makes me feel like puking! Thanks again TC


----------



## 056 kid (Apr 5, 2013)

Simply cutting the center of the hinge wood out from the face is an excellent way to prevent barberchair. A tree greatly looses its ability to slab once a portion of the hinge is severe. You may pull wood though..


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 5, 2013)

The tendency to chase the cuts to make them match can lead to having too much removed for the facecut. When you think you have cut enough, stop and whittle out the excess or knock it out. Going too far can lead to problems, a back leaner for sure will make it tough.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> The tendency to chase the cuts to make them match can lead to having too much removed for the facecut. When you think you have cut enough, stop and whittle out the excess or knock it out. Going too far can lead to problems, a back leaner for sure will make it tough.



Thanks Randy, that's exactly where I went wrong. I started the top cut of my face at too shallow an angle and instead of stopping at where the bottom cut ended and boring out the face, I "chased" the bad top cut with the bottom until they met. I saw that I was going too far, but didn't know how to quit. A gust from the north could have ruined me. From now on, I'll follow all the good advice to start smaller with the face and make it deeper and "opener" if needed. I was also thinking with airfares being what they are, it would be a lot cheaper and easier for me to just set myself on fire and save you a trip! 
Thanks again


----------



## Cfaller (Apr 5, 2013)

This is what I do sometimes. Put in your gunned horizontal cut of your undercut in. Somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 the diameter of the tree. Then set the dawgs of the saw at the end of the horizontal cut pointed up at the angle you want the sloping part of your undercut to be. Start the cut and check the off side to see if it is going to line up. Error on it being short and leaving a dutchman, then go back and clean it up. This will always get you lined up on one side.:msp_wink:


----------



## roberte (Apr 5, 2013)

That dull saw made that video tough to watch.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

Cfaller said:


> This is what I do sometimes. Put in your gunned horizontal cut of your undercut in. Somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 the diameter of the tree. Then set the dawgs of the saw at the end of the horizontal cut pointed up at the angle you want the sloping part of your undercut to be. Start the cut and check the off side to see if it is going to line up. Error on it being short and leaving a dutchman, then go back and clean it up. This will always get you lined up on one side.:msp_wink:


Great advice, I will definitely try this on the next one, thanks!



roberte said:


> That dull saw made that video tough to watch.



In defense of the chain, it was fresh out of the box 75JGX135. The issue was more with the operator than the chain or saw. I have blamed the slow cutting on the bendy bar, but it's a poor carpenter that blames his tools!


----------



## roberte (Apr 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Great advice, I will definitely try this on the next one, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> In defense of the chain, it was fresh out of the box 75JGX135. The issue was more with the operator than the chain or saw. I have blamed the slow cutting on the bendy bar, but it's a poor carpenter that blames his tools!



Well I'm not totally setting you on fire. 
I wasn't there, I don't know what you really went thru. I gotta give props for even posting an eight minute video. Iturned out fine so no harm


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 5, 2013)

Over cutting is a common error, the other end of the spectrum, where they skin off the bark and call it good, is just as common.
Run through your mind what you want to do, take your time, correct if you need to.
My cousin Kev had great technical skills, his stumps were nearly always perfect, but he couldn't read a tree worth a damn.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

roberte said:


> Well I'm not totally setting you on fire.
> I wasn't there, I don't know what you really went thru. I gotta give props for even posting an eight minute video. Iturned out fine so no harm



I was so tempted to bury this video, cause it was kinda (very) ugly, and post a video of a tree I did better, but I figured "what would I learn from that." Also shooting a video is a pain in the ass. I am in awe of all you guy's abilities, and welcome any advice you can give. Feel free to set me on fire, I am not worthy of carrying you guy's jocks when it comes to falling trees, and I want to get a little bit better. I have no plans to move to oregon and be a logger, mostly 'cause I'm old, have 4 kids, and a no-nonsense wife! In all honesty, I've learned more helpful tips from this forum today than I did with the studying and reading I was doing in the past six months. I sincerely thank all of you for the education, and your niceness. I'm an undersized defenseman, so I can take some punishment, and gladly will do so to be a safer and smarter tree-cutter-downer! Thanks again for all your help, and I'm sorry to monopolize your forum, it's just the only one which isn't kinda silly


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> Over cutting is a common error, the other end of the spectrum, where they skin off the bark and call it good, is just as common.
> Run through your mind what you want to do, take your time, correct if you need to.
> My cousin Kev had great technical skills, his stumps were nearly always perfect, but he couldn't read a tree worth a damn.



Thanks Randy,
I'm currently doused in kerosene and looking for a match! I have the rare combination of poor technical skills *and* inability to read trees. Or even books for that matter. Thanks again


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 5, 2013)

Reading em takes a little experience... using yer axe handle is a good way to figure the lean, hold the head in the palm of your hand and eyeball the handle inline with the tree, which way the axe wants to fall it is the way the tree wants to fall, assuming that branches arn't loading it one way or the other... some guys use a plumb bob to do the same thing but I can't hold still long enough to keep the damn thing from swinging all over the place...

size up the tree from several different sides as well, where possible, really steep ground limits your options as to which side you can stand on


P.S. since when is axe spelled ax?


----------



## roberte (Apr 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Thanks Randy,
> I'm currently doused in kerosene and looking for a match! I have the rare combination of poor technical skills *and* inability to read trees. Or even books for that matter. Thanks again



Easy there tiger, its fine.


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Thanks Randy,
> I'm currently doused in kerosene and looking for a match! I have the rare combination of poor technical skills *and* inability to read trees. Or even books for that matter. Thanks again



Lmfao quit bieng your worst critic pal I been cutting 30 something years and sometimes my cuts too deep. There are no supermen there are just more experienced so don't sweat the small stuff, learn,perform and look up. I still learn stuff new always will you at least read ,asked questions and wear your hard hat your not a punk, if you were closer I would cut with u and believe me I won't with many.


----------



## madhatte (Apr 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Madhatte: Thanks for all the time you took with this. I'm forced to admit what you are saying is a little over my head. From a thinking/planning standpoint, how would you have approached this tree to get it to do what you want, safely, and not by accident?



Well, first, "steep and deep" is a time-honored method that certain parties hereabouts heartily recommend (hat tip to RandyMac). TOO steep is sort of a GOL thing and too deep is an easy way to lose a tree early. The trick is to get the face right. It's better to go too shallow, and fix it, than too deep, and live with it. Pretty much everybody has adjusted a face or two to make things work. Sure, sometimes you'll get it right the first time, but having the mental flexibility to work with what you have is pretty important. A very good habit to get into is to slap a wedge in the backcut as soon as there's room behind the bar. This gives you some assurance that the tree can't set back on your bar, and also gives you a place to apply force to use leverage. I try to do this even if I don't intend to pound the wedge. It just gives me more options, plus, if the wedge falls out, I know the tree is tipping, even if I happen to be looking somewhere else at the moment. SO: for this tree, a good plan would have been to make a face cut deep enough that it would take little force to wedge the top past the center of gravity, but shallow enough to allow wedging between the bar and the hingewood. With 8" wedges, 35-40% would have been OK, I think. 

The comments above about using a plumb to gauge the lean are spot-on -- that tree was much better balanced than the butt alone let on. Sometimes it helps to look at it from several angles and come up with several plans so that you can reject the ones that don't work. If you only have one plan, and it fails, well, that's just a failure. More options are always good. Since you were mostly concerned with avoiding the fenceline, there were probably several other lays that would have also achieved that goal. Think them all through, as a mental exercise, to make sure the one you're going to follow is the best one. I often change my plan based on seeing something I didn't expect which I never would have seen had I not taken the time to look. 

Another thing to consider, which I haven't seen mentioned yet, is assessing the soundness of the tree. It was beetle-killed, yes? You'll want to have a look at it for compromised structure, then. Look for conks up the length of the bole -- they will certainly indicate rot of some kind. Tap it around the base with a hammer or the poll of an axe. Listen for the sound to change when you strike the wood. If there are spots where it sounds different, it's likely that the wood there IS different. Duller sounds often indicate rot, while more musical tones can indicate sap accumulation, which suggests healed scarring or other structural irregularities. A sound, uniform tree should make about the same noise pretty much wherever you tap it. It's often to your benefit to pull the face from identified rotten places and to use the sounder wood for holding. This, too, could change your plan. Remember that the strongest wood is usually near the outside of the log cylinder -- the sapwood -- and can be expected to break last. If you are worried about barber-chair, it's often to your advantage to nip the corners of the hingewood for that reason -- if the most likely wood to hold on isn't there to slab, slabbing won't occur.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> Easy there tiger, its fine.



I couldn't find matches, so no worries!



ropensaddle said:


> Lmfao quit bieng your worst critic pal I been cutting 30 something years and sometimes my cuts too deep. There are no supermen there are just more experienced so don't sweat the small stuff, learn,perform and look up. I still learn stuff new always will you at least read ,asked questions and wear your hard hat your not a punk, if you were closer I would cut with u and believe me I won't with many.



Rope,
I've seen pictures of the crazy #### you handle so that statement is truly an honor. I absolutely hate it when some guy comes to ask my advice at work and he has an "you may know more than me about this unimportant thing, but I am smarter than you and a more important person" attitude. When I give good careful advice on things I really know about, these guys typically say I'm wrong and they read different on the internet or their uncle JimBob does it totally different. Posting that ugly video was not at all a "look at me, look at me" thing, but a give a guy who's honestly trying to be a better "faller" some help. You guys have come through for me in a big way, and if I weren't cursed by such manly manliness, I'd probably be all sappy about it.
Thanks again


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 6, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> P.S. since when is axe spelled ax?



I think that's just the local vernacular. As in "can I ax to borrow your saw":msp_biggrin:


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 6, 2013)

Madhatte. Thank you very much. That was one of the best advice posts I have ever read on AS. Thanks for keeping it simple, and I'll try to incorporate it into my cutting. I ran out of rep during this thread, but I hope somebody hits you for me, that was awesome


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 6, 2013)

Here's what I was talking about regarding the bar and chain. I video'd one bucking cut near the base of the stem. It's still about 40" across here. The bar and chain are the same. You can tell it's me, cause I miss the wedge 8 times in a row with the sledge! But the saw moves the 42" bar, buried through this wood in short order when cutting vertically, but horizontally it bogs down quickly. I have been blaming the bar bending and making a curved cut which binds, it's also possible there's too much slop in the bar.[video=youtube;tRndweSQI44]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRndweSQI44[/video]


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 6, 2013)

templar said:


> could be that when cutting vertical that you got the weight of the saw to help ya where as horizontal you don't. Does the saw cut different with another bar ie shorter?



Yeah, it'll dog in and cut plenty fast horizontally with the 28", but with the 42" even dogging pretty hard, after a few seconds it stops and bogs down, smokes, and no chips fly. It's really not a big deal, I "need" the 42 once or twice a year. I saw a video of a logger using a 72" (probably randymac) and he started his cut near the tip, seemingly to support it and take the bend out of the bar. I hate taking out the 42 'cause it means I've lost a big, beautiful tree.


----------



## huskyhank (Apr 6, 2013)

Grind the chain on a machine (or have someone do it for you) to get good even angles on the cutters. Longer bars are bad about doing what you showed in the video when the chain is not evenly sharpened. After a half dozen hand filings my chains are not so perfect. A perfect grind on the chain fixes it for me.


----------



## Rounder (Apr 7, 2013)

Not going to offer any falling advice....That's more a regional/species deal....You've got DD's book. Good, basic fundamentals in that.

For your chain, make sure your rails are true....That's usually the small part of the equation though...Get those cutters sharp, gullets are evil, and take a file-o-plate to the drags. If you run a proper chain, you won't have rail issues. 

And take your time.

Fighting a ####ty bar/chain will lead to ####ty cuts, and overall ####ty technique.

Thanks for posting, hope the rest of you had a good, safe week - Sam


----------



## imagineero (Apr 7, 2013)

You've got a grasp of the fundamentals, seems the question you're asking is not so much about how you went on this tree, but how to become a better faller. The short answer is to do a lot of falling. But since you drop trees pretty infrequently, that isn't going to work. Peer review is great, but pro fallers use a lot of techniques that are ideal for their situation, probably less so for yours. You've already received some good critique and advice so I'll just throw in my 2c worth on the general question of how to become a better faller.

Firstly, I'd say avoid complex techniques. sisawheels, dutchmans, etc all have their place, but if you can't execute a good plain face then you don't have the finesse to pull off the more complex stuff. Those trick cuts only get you the last 5% anyhow, 95% of it is just good basic saw work - a good face, and a good back cut. 

Use wedges, use a pull rope. Get yourself a throw line, and a rope. Use both, together. You're in the position of needing certainty over production, wedges and a pull rope will give it to you.

Take your time is the most important thing. If you're an infrequent faller, the biggest enemy you have is rushing. Particularly when you get yourself a big'un, the adrenaline will be flowing and you'll be likely to make a mistake, or over do it in a way that you can't correct for. Seriously, take your time. Look up. Look all round the tree. Set a pull rope. Plan your escape (where were you running to in that vid, across the back of the tree instead of away?). Layout your gear.

Mark your tree. Even the very best fallers mark out their trees when faced with a big one. Use sticks, string, or whatever you need. Use chalk, Mark out the face. You've got all the time in the world to cut the face, so use an extra few minutes there. No need to rush in. Do absolutely mark every thing out - gunning cut, face cut, back cut, how much hinge you're going to leave. It will make the job a lot easier, and a lot more accurate. Take your time on cutting that face, even when you've marked it out. Stop and look at the far side, often, or have someone watch it for you so you don't over cut. Make that face something to be proud of.

If you've done all the above, the back cut is almost an afterthought. A well shaped, well cut face, with wedges and a pull rope, a well inspected top, and a well planned escape route sets you up for easy success, at the only part of the job that has a time frame. Use the gunning sites to stay parallel to your face, and take your time, even here. I see more amateurs destroy their hard work by overcutting the hinge on the back cut than by underdoing it. If you've got that pull rope set (don't overdo it there, only just enough to hold the weight of the tree) and wedges, then you've bought yourself some time. That hinge is control. Cut it through and you've lost it. 

Shaun


----------



## jrcat (Apr 7, 2013)

I recently cut a hard maple 8' away from my brother in laws house. the top leaned away from the house but the stick did not. It was also 2 separate sticks coming from one stump one 28" and the other was 18". the 18" was still alive but the larger one was dead and had been for some time it was all rot. I dropped the small side first then went to the second one. I put a choker 20' up and hooked the cable to it and put some slight tension to it or so I thought. i made the face cut then started my back cut 6" in it blew apart mostly due to rot and the tension from the cable but it still went where I wanted it to. Anyway I am no pro by a long shot and cutting rot is dangerous as all get out just my 2 cents


----------



## jrcat (Apr 7, 2013)

templar said:


> Hey if I'm ever down your way when we get back I'll fall with ya I have no doubts that you would be good to work with ........I'll not set ya on fire lol might speak in a lang you won't understand .......It really colourful to cuss in gaelic lol
> 
> 
> Anyways enough from me off to go haul wood



I know how to cuss in amish lol


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 7, 2013)

jrcat said:


> I recently cut a hard maple 8' away from my brother in laws house. the top leaned away from the house but the stick did not. It was also 2 separate sticks coming from one stump one 28" and the other was 18". the 18" was still alive but the larger one was dead and had been for some time it was all rot. I dropped the small side first then went to the second one. I put a choker 20' up and hooked the cable to it and put some slight tension to it or so I thought. i made the face cut then started my back cut 6" in it blew apart mostly due to rot and the tension from the cable but it still went where I wanted it to. Anyway I am no pro by a long shot and cutting rot is dangerous as all get out just my 2 cents



Had mine been rotten it would have eaten my lunch! Luckily I got lucky, and we finished limbing/bucking/hauling/burning this afternoon.


----------



## jrcat (Apr 7, 2013)

I left the stump of this maple about 3' high. They wanted to put bird feeders on it. LOL. Where can I get that book on falling techniques? Im starting on my first "big" job tomorrow ...lots of big red oak and cherry. I dont want to split them or barber chair them. Most of all I dont want to make myself dead. Dead seems to be a rather permanent medical condition.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 7, 2013)

"professional tree falling". Douglas Dent. Got mine from baileys for around 10 bucks. Didn't make me a pro faller, but I understand 50% of the words now at least!


----------



## jrcat (Apr 7, 2013)

Sounds like a good read. I will have to get that. Here in NY we have whats called GOL classes I want to take them as soon as I can. Then I can be put on the list of loggers at FORECON. Plus it helps with the insurance I think.


----------



## ropensaddle (Apr 7, 2013)

jrcat said:


> I know how to cuss in amish lol



Levi lol Is that you?


----------



## jrcat (Apr 7, 2013)

lol I can speak some of it .. but to spell it ...... I cant pick on the amish. I have some good amish friends. Some of them are loggers in varying degrees lol. One of them has has 4 timber jack 360's and one timber jack 380. He just recently sold a 208 I kind of wanted that but heard to many horror stories about them.


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm thinking you either have a wore out chain, which u said was n.I.b.for that tree, or you have a burr on the out side of the rails or wore out bar. New chains don't really cut very good. 
LOOK UP. Ya don't get to when your dead so ya might as well when your alive. It'll help keep u fogging a mirror too. 
KEEP YOUR THUMB WRAPPED AROUND THE HANDLE BAR.!!!! 
For yard work, firewood falling. Make your stump 1 or 2 blocks high. . Cut them later. It just helps with the falling all around. 
Try a 36" bar. They are good and accurate for falling and easier to deal with. A 28" is pretty short on a 385 . No offense Sam.
Use the sights on your saw. That's why they are there. Get right down and sight along them, don't just glance at them.
Like Shaun said, your face is what matters. Make it right. If your far side cuts aren't:lining up when the cuts come in to the sights. Go and vertically bore cut that side and knock the face out with an AX :greenchainsaw:


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 8, 2013)

12" wedges are what u want for that size tree. Get the cheep ones. U won't be as put out when u saw them up or break them off. With 3 , 12" wedges you can lift quite a tree. . Like Mad said, what u did by mistake worked for your good. 
Don't let it happen again :::msp_w00t: just kiddin. :msp_biggrin:


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 8, 2013)

Oh. Two Chains, that's what we call Match Cutting. For 2 reasons. 1 if it works out everything looks great, and 2 if not your likely turning a good saw log into match sticks. 
That's a for professional use only cut. 
I've kept 2 trees in the air for a full tank of gas cutting for a stroker , match cutting in smaller size timber.


----------



## bitzer (Apr 16, 2013)

Never saw this thread first time around. Anyway, don't cut under your swing side! You were swinging from left to right? Cut from the good or near side. Like everyone said that super deep face didn't give that tree a chance. As long as the wood was sound, gravity took over. A long bar tends to sag and will bind if not put into the tree right. Also pulling that much chain with that saw you may have to do a little reaming and chip clearing. Chips will bind er up quick. Like mentioned its better to come up short and bust yer face out rather than trying to meet cuts. As long as the cuts are in line vertically and not bypassed. Theres no shame in running from stumps. I do it every day. I like going home in the same condition I got there. Typically stem lean will trump top weight but not always. Usually a tree will chair with too narrow of a face. It stalls as it closes creating tremendous compression that has to be relieved, hence the split. Wide face or narrow with a snipe should keep that movement going. Also saw up as much compression wood as necessary. If you use a Dutchman don't leave any wood behind it. Make sure its totally cut off.


----------



## 056 kid (Apr 16, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> 12" wedges are what u want for that size tree. Get the cheep ones. U won't be as put out when u saw them up or break them off. With 3 , 12" wedges you can lift quite a tree. . Like Mad said, what u did by mistake worked for your good.
> Don't let it happen again :::msp_w00t: just kiddin. :msp_biggrin:



I used 6 12"ers to lift a bastard chestnut oak to drive a tree over that had my bar in the back cut. 
I had them trippled up side by side and almost gone in the kerf before that ##### started to commit. The whole time the pull side is talking like its gonna bust off and the trees gonna go down hill which would have been fine if it weren't for the road and someone's junk down below.. Talk about wore out..


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 16, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Never saw this thread first time around. Anyway, don't cut under your swing side! You were swinging from left to right? Cut from the good or near side. Like everyone said that super deep face didn't give that tree a chance. As long as the wood was sound, gravity took over. A long bar tends to sag and will bind if not put into the tree right. Also pulling that much chain with that saw you may have to do a little reaming and chip clearing. Chips will bind er up quick. Like mentioned its better to come up short and bust yer face out rather than trying to meet cuts. As long as the cuts are in line vertically and not bypassed. Theres no shame in running from stumps. I do it every day. I like going home in the same condition I got there. Typically stem lean will trump top weight but not always. Usually a tree will chair with too narrow of a face. It stalls as it closes creating tremendous compression that has to be relieved, hence the split. Wide face or narrow with a snipe should keep that movement going. Also saw up as much compression wood as necessary. If you use a Dutchman don't leave any wood behind it.
> sure its totally cut off.



I'm quoting this whole post. Cause most everyone ought to read it again. . And it shows that whether your on the east or west side, doing it right is doing it right.


----------



## 056 kid (Apr 16, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I'm quoting this whole post. Cause most everyone ought to read it again. . And it shows that whether your on the east or west side, doing it right is doing it right.



Agreed, except I occasionally cut dutchmans from under the lean. Only when I have to..



templar said:


> I bet the air was blue lol........ya say things like gosh .......golly and please lovely tre will you please lift and fall.........or was it bleep bleep bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppppp bleep thank bleep lol



Too worried and out of breath for anything other than huffing and puffing.


----------



## HuskStihl (Apr 16, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Never saw this thread first time around. Anyway, don't cut under your swing side! You were swinging from left to right? Cut from the good or near side. Like everyone said that super deep face didn't give that tree a chance. As long as the wood was sound, gravity took over. A long bar tends to sag and will bind if not put into the tree right. Also pulling that much chain with that saw you may have to do a little reaming and chip clearing. Chips will bind er up quick. Like mentioned its better to come up short and bust yer face out rather than trying to meet cuts. As long as the cuts are in line vertically and not bypassed. Theres no shame in running from stumps. I do it every day. I like going home in the same condition I got there. Typically stem lean will trump top weight but not always. Usually a tree will chair with too narrow of a face. It stalls as it closes creating tremendous compression that has to be relieved, hence the split. Wide face or narrow with a snipe should keep that movement going. Also saw up as much compression wood as necessary. If you use a Dutchman don't leave any wood behind it. Make sure its totally cut off.





tramp bushler said:


> I'm quoting this whole post. Cause most everyone ought to read it again. . And it shows that whether your on the east or west side, doing it right is doing it right.




Thanks Bitzer, 
I'll be careful to cut from the good side in the future. Also great explaination of how a barberchair works. The funny thing about amateurs, frequently something that is automatic to you guys is completely foreign to us. I wound up posting this in the middle of another thread in the chainsaw forum (I didn't want to post it there because I did not want to talk about my saw being the wrong color, the mods to my saw, the wax I use to polish my saw, the oil I use in my saw etc etc...) because a fellow texan said on there that this was probably a 24 inch tree, and in Texas we take size seriously. But, in that threat, Srcarr52 told me to start the cut with a long bar towards the tip, take the bend out of the bar (blade for noobs!), and only dawg in once you have a straight cut. If i had known this sooner, I would have saved you guys 5 minutes of face cutting nonsense, and probably had a better shot at making the top and bottom cuts meet where I wanted. Anyway, the time y'all have taken to help me has really made me feel welcome here. Thanks again,
jon


----------



## madhatte (Apr 16, 2013)

056 kid said:


> Too worried and out of breath for anything other than huffing and puffing.



I HATE that feeling.


----------



## bitzer (Apr 17, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I'm quoting this whole post. Cause most everyone ought to read it again. . And it shows that whether your on the east or west side, doing it right is doing it right.



Hey Glen Thanks! I'm a product of my screw ups and the nuggets of info I've pulled out of you guys over the years.


----------



## bitzer (Apr 17, 2013)

056 kid said:


> Agreed, except I occasionally cut dutchmans from under the lean. Only when I have to..



That's funny because I had that in there and deleted it. Didn't want to get too confusing. Sometimes you do what you've got to do. You see something movin the wrong way and off comes the near side or when shes swingin too far. That's the thing about falling timber. There are no set rules. Just knowing how and when to improvise.


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 17, 2013)

I was going to reply the same thing but I didn't have time. What with finding out that drywall stilts aren't spec ed for over 225 lbs. And debating as to whether or not I should order a hawk and a couple trowels or stick with pan and knives. :confused2:


----------



## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I was going to reply the same thing but I didn't have time. What with finding out that drywall stilts aren't spec ed for over 225 lbs. And debating as to whether or not I should order a hawk and a couple trowels or stick with pan and knives. :confused2:



Stick with pan and knives, and a ladder. By the time you learn to walk on stilts you'll be done.


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 18, 2013)

I've got 3200 sq.ft. of ceilings to insulate, v b , rock mud+ tape and paint. Not sure they may want some of them textured. . Weeks of ceiling work. I was looking at the Marshaltown Sky Walker 2.1 s.


----------



## roberte (Apr 18, 2013)

Unless your going into the ceiling business, I might just rent a rolloing scaffold


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 18, 2013)

Got 2


----------

