# learning to climb on gaffs



## Ryan Willock (Sep 8, 2002)

i have a few questions for the pro's. i am learning to climb (i know gaffing anything but removals isn't cool) i have no problems climbing but i get to about 20-25 feet up on them and get afraid to go higher. did any of you have this problem learning to climb? if so how did you deal with it i have floating double D saddle and buckingham gaffs, steel core flip line with micrograb, climbing boots and climbing line. any help or suggestions would be helpful 
thanx


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 8, 2002)

Learning to use the equipment properly and staying tied in, breeds trust in it and it's mechanics. Learning to use all that to work for you, and power you around strategically (rather than tripping over something you have to do) and confidentally takes time and feel

"Knowledge, Replaces Fear!"

Person-ally i too am afraid of heights, don't even like being this tall!!!


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## rahtreelimbs (Sep 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Willock _
> * i have no problems climbing but i get to about 20-25 feet up on them and get afraid to go higher. *




I've been where your at. I sometimes still get nervous, especially when doing trees with extremely hard wood or dealing with a leaner. Keep your gaffs sharp and dig in hard with them. Learning to use your weight against your flipline is also helpful. Time in trees is the best teacher. Rich.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 8, 2002)

i try to climb every day. i have used saws for ten years and am very familar w/them. i climb a live pine out back ( i plan on cutting it down anyway) and figured out early on that my weight on the line made a big differance. i trust my gear but still have a problem w/ the hight. i have worked for a tree company in my area (chapel hill) but he was a drunk so i quite within the week. one question that i have been thinking about is when you drop the top the tree is going to shake, will that toss you out i usually climb w/ a double wrap (12' flipline) so i think that will hold. any advice would be great. i really want to learn to be an arborist, i have the compainion and the climber's guide but they don't have much on gaffs. if there is anyone in my area that would be willing to help me that would be great.
thanx


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## coydog (Sep 8, 2002)

I would worry more about the top going the wrong way and getting caught in your lanyard, on you or your legs etc. make sure you understand the dynamics of hingeing and falling before you take a top out. One of the cardinal rules of felling is to have a safe escape route planned, If your topping something big enough to cause the tree to shake, then your essentially felling a tree but your tied to the trunk, no escape route, so you better know where its going. Depending on the way you notch it, you can eliminate some of the kickback, but that requires some experience.


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## FSburt (Sep 8, 2002)

Hey Ryan I hav'nt been climbing on gaffs very long but I know the fear you have when you get up kinda high. For me I try not the look down very much if I can help it and give my self enough slack in the flip rope to move easily and not choke me up too close to the tree. I usually get jittery when I"m at the top when the diameter starts to get small and the top starts to move around. When I get up that high I usually double wrap my flip rope around the stem to give a better bite in case I do kick out. One thing I did early on to help me trust the equipment was to go up 5 to 10 ft and intentionally kickout to prove to myself that the fliprope will hold me in case I did kickout accidentally and I didnot have too much slack in my line. I think when you are at the top and the diameter is small I feel your flip will not hold you unless it is wrapped twice around the stem. Correct this amatuer if I am wrong. One thing I am going to try when I get me a cambium saver is the method shown in the Sherrill catalog it I think is a cool way to keep you better secured to the tree and rappell down off a spar and still get your equipement down. Hey fellas how do you set a cambium saver with your throw line. 

Well Good luck and if you have access to a tree that you can practice on it helps alot to get comfortable moving all around the tree sideways as well as up and down. I practiced on telephone poles behind my house or I went into the woods and found a real crappy tree that was almost dead or just freshly died and practiced on that. Just remember Don't go alone and have someone there that can get you down if you freeze up. I've always thought of an idea of block set up about 40 ft and run your climb line through to set up and safety line with your partner belaying for you as you practice. Just a thought. Take care.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

i know about hing wood and the dynamics envoled with felling on the ground but in the tree things aren't very forgiving. any input on technique would be great. i am comfortable moving sideways on the tree and that trick with a friction save is neat how high do you need to go to "safely" cut the top out??? have seen diagrams showing climber behind the back cut and on the side, which one is safe???


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## Nickrosis (Sep 9, 2002)

Ryan, it's really awesome that you've come here prepared! I've gotten so tired of people asking the same questions..."how do I start climbing trees?" etc.

The scariest moment for me in a tree was climbing a marginally hazardous tree to get a doggy toy out at a party. Good thing I had my equipment in my Jeep. I was with a bunch of other climbers who belayed me while I climbed (read: pulled on my line with about 400lbs. and shot this whippersnapper to the top in no time). 

Once I was up there, a nicely drunken fellow (won best college tree feller in the nation last year) ran up to the base of the tree with his Husky and proceeded to act as if he would cut down the tree. I was scared at this time. I was in the process of changing over so I could descend on a Fig. 8 - tied in with my lanyard only. Fortunately, other people pulled him away, and I buzzed down _fast_ on that Fig. 8.

"Hey fellas how do you set a cambium saver with your throw line. "
Hit up your Tree Climber's Companion for that one. Illustrations and all. I'm not nearly a "pro" anyways  

Nickrosis


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## Nickrosis (Sep 9, 2002)

Especially as a beginner, you want to start out small. My first top, I went as high as I could in this spruce until I wasn't worried if the top were to have hit my leg on the way down. I always weigh slightly more than air...

I cut it from the side because it was a very small diameter at that point - 5-6" or so. The top just picks up momentum as it swings and carries itself away from the tree, at that size. When you're blocking down big chunks, other dynamics occur, but I'm not qualified for that.

Nickrosis


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

i've been reading this site for awhile just reading any and every thing that i could get my hands on. bought the climbing tapes from arbormaster, didn't touch on gaffs at all. i can footlock but not very well. i know better than to gaff trees that i am not going to remove, i have nothing but pines out back so i have to go to a friends house to footlock. i would like to really pick ya'lls brains and learn as much as possible. would be great if there is some one in my area or within driving distance that could show me some time and make sure that i am doing everything right


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## Nickrosis (Sep 9, 2002)

Does your school have an arborist program?


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

nope


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

nearest one that i found is 3 hours away


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## treeman82 (Sep 9, 2002)

What kind of pads are you using on your gaffs Ryan? When I first got my gaffs, they came with the stock pads. Those made me really uncomfortable. Within a year of that time I purchased a pair of velcro pads with the steel insert. If you decide to go the velcro path, get the steel inserts. I have talked with other people who have the non-steel inserts who have used mine, and they by far prefer mine. As far as height goes, just take it easy. If you are ok to 25 feet now... go up 30 feet next time. Get comfortable at 30 and then go up more. Get comfortable going over branches. What size trees are you going up for the most part DBH wise? I find that trees in the 18 - 26 inch diameter range are much better to learn on.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

tripple thick T pads, learned the basics on my buddies baslins w/wrap pads didn't like em. mostly 18"


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

ordered my gaffs and pads from baily's since i could order the gaff without pads and pic out the one's i wanted


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 9, 2002)

Welcome, Ryan. 
I had a groundman I was training to climb when I worked at Davey. He took a long time before he trusted his equipment. He would climb up hugging the tree so close he couldn't get a bite with his gaffs. (We called him 'koala bear'  ) When gaffing up a removal, I will keep my lanyard adjusted so I can lean back ever so slightly. And keep your knees out! If your knees are hugging the tree, you WILL kick out. 
Gaffing up a pole (pine) is like walking up a very steep flight of stairs. I grab my lanyard with both hands, and flip it up after every 2 steps. It keeps my hands off the trunk so I don't get as sticky, too. 
Anyway, glad to have you here. You have the benefit of hundreds of years of experience to draw upon here, and most of us are usually glad to help. :angel:


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

i learned the basicx from friend of mine who used to work for the power company climbing poles but he move out of state  either way he didn't have any experance using a saw in a tree


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

brian, do you climb w/ a double wrap? from the way your talking about the flip line it doesn't sound like it. i have tried it both ways 
and w/double wrap have gone up 5-20 ft and intensionally kicked out to test to see if it would. (i first tested it at ground level)


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## Reed (Sep 9, 2002)

Fear is a learned response, usually by experience. We know what happens if we fall, so nurturing an element of fear is a good thing but don't let it overpower you. Trust in yourself. 

Knowledge is the first componant to overide fear. I would seek out someone who can either willingly show you some moves or sit back and observe them. Since we all like convenience the notion of travelling a distance and investing some time doesn't cross our plans, but there's a good 'ol dude who thinks his years are over named "Cutmeup" on this site who appears to have made a good crew work well. Won't hurt to ask him, since you might be embarking on a life-long career there's nothing wrong with attaching yourself to someone who can pass-on an honorable and rewarding profession. Keep trying here and again, trust in yourself.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

Oak, i would definitely be willing to drive a few hours to learn from some one who knows what they are doing. i wanted to go through the arbormaster program but they weren't near me when i had the $$


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

Ryan,

You are really on the right track. Here's some suggestions. i'm thinking any tree climbing and pruning training, not just gaff climbing...

look in lots of phone books, (Use the web too maybe) til you find a company employing certified arborists. see if you can apprentice with one. Maybe they will have someone good to help you, but then again, maybe not. 

go to the ISA website, and search for certified arborists in your area. Remember, not all of them are climbers.

go to Sherril, I'll bet you could learn some stuff just kibbitzing with them.

You already have the Arbormaster video series, and TCC. That is a great start. 

Also, go to Gerry Beranek's website, atreestory, to buy his book. it is the best, even with some dated material. As well, get Don Blair's "Arborist Equipment" It is loaded with good information.

As well, the archives here and on several other message boards are valuable sources- use the search feature here.

People like yourself that search out learning as opposed to just jumping in uninformed and untrained will go far in life!


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## murphy4trees (Sep 9, 2002)

It's a lot easier to trust your lanyard when you don't need to....
That is if you have a climbing line set high in the tree. So sounds like you could use some instructions in using a throwline.. TRY THE BIG SHOT!!!!
And the best way to learn is by working with an experienced and progressive crew.. If you really want to learn this stuff.. get out the yellow pages and ask for a job.. offer to work on weekends or on call or for cheap if necessary. If you get more than one job offer.. see if you can find out what kind of friction hitch they use. 
Go with the most advanced hitch.
God Bless,
Daniel


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

Ryan,

Another thing that will help you get over the fear, is to set a lifeline before gaffing up. If you have someone give you a belay (w/ micro pulley fair lead), you can climb safely and faster, and just concentrate on the movements.

Also use mental conditioning to affirm to yourself that all is well. Try, when climbing to not look at you spurs as that is looking down, and you see the ground. Just focus on flipping up.

I have gaff climbed for 30 years, and rarely gaff out. Even if you do, 99% of the time you land right back on the climbers.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

i called davey and they want a trained climber, as do the other major companies around here, that was the first thing i tried. i currently work for Glover's tree service but i don't trust his style. it works for him and he's been doing it for 29 years but he doesn't climb secure. i have throw line and ball and can use it fairly well. at work i'm them one who sets the ropes for directional pulls, i am learning to foot lock as well as other styles, info on them is in all the books, but gaffs on the other hand???? nope...sol. i have tried to get a job w/other arborists in the area but none are hiring. i've called them all several times


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

thanx rb, its hard to set a life line in these %*%$ pines 
i use a life line when i can though, its much less work to repel down on a figure 8


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

what is the smallest diameter that ya'll will climb w/gaffs


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## murphy4trees (Sep 9, 2002)

Depends what kind of tree it is.. maybe 8" on good oak.. and could go smaller if necessary but the need to get so close to tips is rare on most takedowns.
God Bless,
Daniel


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 9, 2002)

Care-fully @ 2.5-3" with round turn in lanyard to be dead-manned, probably one leg to a front D.

"Knowledge Replaces Fear"

It is nice we don't have any Billy-Bad-Azzes that deny knowing the human fear you speak of; and lend a hand rather than ridicule.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

i REALLY appreciate all the help and advice its nice to know that there people out there willing to help. i just went outside and climbed 23" twice and just sat there for a while untill feet started to hurt to bad(my climbing boots are Stihl ProMarks) really comfortable don't burn your feet up in hot weather either! can you safely drop the top out of a pine 8" diameter w/about half the tree above you? if not how much is safe???


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

Ryan

some things to watch for when topping:

Center of mass above you. In your favor is alway nice!

wind

grain structure, ie, no knots near the hinge

Actual cutting techniques should be covered in the Arbom. video. 

Tip, when making backcut, NEVER cut out the hinge wood, be careful on the side away from you which is harder to see. Set up the hinge, and finish with a straight bladed handsaw, like the Silky Natanoko. Stand slightly to the side, for less chance of the top coming back into you. Stand more behind the top for best push. cut a little notch arms length above for a better surface to push off against. Or, have an assistant and a pull line-- much safer. but dont have him pull too hard, and not before the hinge is put in. Brace your self, make sure gaffs are firmly in, to be ready for the action.

Cutting an 8 inch top is ok, but it is rather large. and taking half the tree, especially if it is spindly, wil result in you taking quite a ride. It is better to go high, and take small stuff. Making a 70 degree open face will result in the smoothest release off the stump, giving less pull then push back- the forces that can cause the top to jump back at you. Keep the backcut a bit above the hinge apex to lessen that chance. I'm 160 and have no problem going into 2.5-3 " tops if the wood is straight and defect free. Maybe a tad bigger with pine.

Gerry's book is great, and about $30 for the softcover.

Bailey's also sell it.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

how bad are the vibrations when the top goes? do you also hang onto the tree with your hands??? or hold your flip line???


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 9, 2002)

In topping everything is moving faster, more dangerous than usual. IMAO, you should be very comfortable with climbing, tieing in etc. before placing your self in this position.

i have a center of balance thread brewing in my head for some weeks now; it is very determinate to success in many areas, especially healthwise here. As leaves fall (or 'spring' out the reverse), the center of balance tends to get better (lower) this time of year, but then if you take all of the lower limbs of top out, that alters that.............

i generally am tied in 2-3x snuggly, well planted on spurs too. After, top comes off, i flip the kill switch, as one hand brings saw out to side, the free one purposely slaps down onto the top of the stump, giving highest bracing, to highest hitchable point of torso (arm/shoulder).

Perhaps there will come a day when a man will get a second look from Davey if he seriously visits, questions and writes on this site, as it gets recognition in time!

When you know you are safe, put about 1' of slack in lanyard and fall comfortably against it, get a feel for where it will catch you, and how well it has you, try that with life line. Tighten up lifeline till your on your toes and sit in it, swing and dance around lightly in play, feel yourself floating on this 5-8k test line doubled over, and how well it has you. Watch similar lines handle large wood, and realize how much overkill a new (nonrigging) line of the same manufacture would have you safely in.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

so do you drop all the limbs that are lower than where you want to cut or do you limb all the way to the cut i was thinking that a looprunner might would make a good backup tie-in... thoughts, comments???


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 9, 2002)

I agree with Rog about what to do when you top out a pine. 
As far as hanging on after the cut-
I use a wide notch when possible, like Rog. I lean back against my lanyard (with lifeline tied around the trunk below my lanyard for a backup) so both hands are free to work. I start my back cut and watch for the top to start going. As soon as I see the top start to go (usually with about 1"-1 1/2" hingewood) I pull out my saw and brace. As soon as the top clears the cut, I grab the top of the stub and hold on. Usually don't take much of a ride, but I like to be holding on just in case.

I did a pine removal once, had to be 90' tall and 18" away from the house. No landing zone to speak of and the lean was over the roof. WE only had a 120' bull rope, and the first limb was almost 60' up. After going up and piecing off what I could, I came down and set the bull rope on that first limb. Made my notch aiming over the roof, tied the bull rope and started the back cut. When that 30'-35' top came over and slammed into the trunk, it kicked me off my gaffs and my hardhat landed in the middle of the driveway about 50' away. The brush cleared the roof by about 5'. We lowered the top to the roof and worked it from there, tossing the limbs over in the driveway. I was one sore pup for a day or two after that job. That had to be my worst ride yet.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 9, 2002)

the rerason i like blocks is that you can set them where you need them, not on the best branch. 

I had a job where the guy I was orking for said the loweing line would just make it, then when I got up there he remembered he'd had to cut off "a few feet" of it. I had to take the last few feet of lowering the top's out 

Just think if you could have speedlined that thing over the roof


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 9, 2002)

That was about 5-6 years ago, John. I hadn't learned much about speedlines, or half the stuff I know about now. Besides, Davey didn't equip us very well. We had big expensive trucks, but nothing more than a rope and saddle for working in the trees. Getting a new handline or bull rope was a big deal, and I never saw a pulley or lowering block while I was there. Not even a throwball!

If I were to do the same tree today, I'd speedline it all to the driveway and use false crotches for the last 25' of wood, lowering it to the ground.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 9, 2002)

from the sound of it if you use an open face then you shouldn't have much vibration, correct??? do you use sap wood cuts below the notch to keep it from barber chairing ??


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## lync (Sep 9, 2002)

*works for me*

Ryan,

You didn't mention what type of climbing system your using.
When you double wrap your flip line are you still tied in with your climbing line? The reason I mention it is that if your climbing with a split tail system it can act as a second lanyard while your getting your flipline double wrapped.

I used to double wrap my flip line to give me added lateral support, and I still do when the trunk is less than 5 inches,
but I have found that a single wrap on the flip line, with your climbing line choked below it gives an added measure of safety should your gaffs kick out and is much faster to climb with. 

In my split tail system the climbing line is terminated with a locking rope snap, I encircle the trunk with the climbing line and clip into the line itself creating a choke(gate facing up on the snap). I slide my blakes hitch up to about 12 inches away from the snap. I hold both the climbing line and flip line together and progress them together up the trunk. When I get to the point that i'm going to top, I slide the blakes right up to the snap. This sytem has an added advantage, if you should get hurt (hit by the top, or cut by your saw) you can unclip your flipline with your good remaining hand and decend relatively quickly on your friction hitch, while you walk down the tree with your gaffs. You might melt your split tail but at that point who cares.

CJ


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## coydog (Sep 9, 2002)

my understanding is that the more open faced cut the less vibration because the hinge has more room to work. when the faces actually close the hinge is already or almost already released. with a narrow face cut the two faces meet while the hinge is still holding, resulting in a pop off. narrower face means more vibration but also a sooner release. useful to practice because you can gauge what the top will do by the angle of your face cut. if you make a open faced cut the top will release angle top down, so when it hits the ground the butt will fall behind you or into the trunk. narrow cut means sooner release, resulting in an ideally horizontal jump forward. top will land horizontal to ground and butt end will be in front of you. too narrow could mean jump backward although ive never been unfortunate enough to witness that. today i removed a 30' pin oak that some serious decay in its base. didnt want to put a fell cut in the lower 10' because of questionable wood integrity. topped at between 10-15' up, because the top was longer than the trunk that i was tied into, had i made too open faced cut the tip would have jammed into the ground before or as the hinge released resulting in the base jumping back at me, that was a situation where i needed to know how to make the top jump away from me. same would apply if you were bombing a top down and there was say a fence or house behind you. 
try climbing with 2 fliplines, if you reach an obstacle you can tie in with the other one before you unhook the first one.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 10, 2002)

why reconect? why not just remove the limb


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## murphy4trees (Sep 10, 2002)

It's good policy to be on a climbing line when you make a cut.. that is to make sure you can descend in a hurry should anything go wrong. 
Another basic rule in tree climbing is stay above your cut whenever possible. So cutting branches to get them out of your way on the ascent is not recommended.
God Bless,
Daniel


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## Nickrosis (Sep 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Willock _
> *why reconect? why not just remove the limb *



It's nice to stand on a wide platform while you're cutting or eating or pooping. It's a good practice to always climb with more than one lanyard or to use a 3 or 6 way lanyard. You'll see when you're trimming trees and don't have the option to cut every limb.

Nickrosis


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## rbtree (Sep 10, 2002)

Gee, I've never pooped in a tree....


But every so often, bein an oldster with quick urges, I have to do something else.. I try to sneak it past the guys...and do a quick check of the telltales foist...


As i dont want them pithed off...


.. or worse, pithed on..


cause they might tie off my lifeline at the base...


..or do a basal prune...


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## Nickrosis (Sep 10, 2002)

:Monkey: :blob5: 
Monkey fist

\ | / \ | /
_____/
||
||
||:... :........@ <--"What's that?"
||___:_____/\


"Oh, that's the boss's incontinence problem."


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## rbtree (Sep 10, 2002)

Gee, I've never had a three way..in a tree..

and a six way, wow, my mind is racing thinking of the possibilities..

one could really get tied up.....hmm


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 10, 2002)

Of course i see reducing the top movement exactly opposite! 

i keep a 4' lifeline connect only loop runner and biner for redirects and 3rd lifesupport attatchment points. Positve deadmanned grab in choke around branch. Works very well, and eventually becomes a rigging sling.

Making sure the top is leaning/balanced towards target or groundie is taking leveraged command from above the center of balance with line to adjusting the balance is imperative. Pulling a top off someone with a rope from below the center of balance can bring the top down on them. If someone pulls you forward with a line shoulder high, you will fall forward, if someone pulls you from your ankles, you come down on your butt, if a tree does that, it can hit the guy in the tree topping it. Taking ez/low branches you don't have to off the piece to be topped just to reduce weight can raise the center of balance, where a pulling line would have to be pulling from a higher point for the same leverage factor on center of balance. Things fall from their center of balance.

If it is a light top, and you are going to help by pushing it, i cut about waist high or lower, to place as much of my immense chest weight as high as possible, for highest leveraged push on the spar. Of course do lighter stuff first, this is some of the most dangerous parts of climbing, especially as you get into catching the top.

'Stick Trick' works well for me in plotting how much top will fit in the open area if i measure it before i get into tree. 

Please be carefull!


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## Rob Murphy (Sep 10, 2002)

Some times on small tops I will give the butt a push after the hinge is broken so it will land more side on ......can fit the head into a smaller space...
One big thing to watch for that nearly came me undone is if the head/top catches on another tree...sending butt spearing back to you.
And bark teardown...
Actually i think that you really shouldn't attempt to learn unsupervised even with the best Vidoes or Internet info....


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 10, 2002)

It seems to me that an open faced notch would have the potential to generate much more spar movement.
As the top starts to fall, there is some pushing back from the top. Then when the top gets to around 35 to 45 degrees there is little presure from the top. As the top gets past this point, there is tremendous pulling from the top. It has reached a high rate of fall and has developed huge dynamic forces. If the hinge hasen't broken free by this angle, get ready to get flicked like a booger off an index finger.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 10, 2002)

Dang i hate agreeing with Mike, takes almost all of the fun out of it! 

All, i could figure out Mike is that they were waiting for the top to pull straight down into the spar as it tore, rather than pulling across it getting that 'ping'. But i see such increased travel as force building also.

Y'all like the new avatar Nick sent me? Was looking for one and then it appeared! Thanx again Nick!


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 10, 2002)

BELIEVE ME, i have NO intensions about topping one until i can get someone w/expeirance there with me!


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## rbtree (Sep 10, 2002)

Have you guys been to "Chainsaw" and seen all of Art Martin's fabulous old pics and great stories...?

Esp. read the one about topping 250 foot plus redwood at 200 feet for spar trees. he talks about 60 foot circles of movement afterwards!! Frankly i highly doubt if that much movement could occur, but surely a lot. And he talks about all the injuries and fatalities of the huge tops coming down on the climber.

I rarely take big tops, so seldom experience much pull/push, and I use 20-45 degree open faces, as i want the top to break off and fall flat. Smaller angles are for when I'm dropping trunk wood and want to slow down the spin rate. (Actually, I just took a 30-35 foot, 13 inch fir top, made an appx 50 degree face, with 88 feet of tree below me, and felt little movement.)

However, I am fairly positive that an open face will create much smoother action, and less pull/push movement. I've only done a few, and mainly it is when I want the top to land close to the trunk, and not sail out.


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## Top it (Sep 10, 2002)

The wider the notch, the greater the spar movement. Just MHO.


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## treeman82 (Sep 10, 2002)

When I blow out the top on any tree I try to place my lanyard between 2 branches. I think that why I do this is so that 1) the branch above my ropes will keep them from jumping up over the top (never had it happen). and 2) so that in case I lose my footing the lower branch will keep me from taking a ride. I know that you can't find that scenario on all trees, but when I can find them, I use them to my advantage. Also, I find that if you are working with small trees (less than 15"DBH) that you feel EVERYTHING you do so much more, especially if you are rigging out pieces. Also take into consideration that once you have blown out the top of a tree, you are the tallest part of that tree, and therefore any significant movements you make will influence what the spar below you does.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 10, 2002)

i think that the thought of the movement from dropping the top is part of why i have a problem going above 25'. i had always wondered about the movement. it seems to me that when the top goes that the vibrations will be in the direction of the face/backcut?? and if so from that standpoint wouldn't it be better to be behind the backcut 

just my thoughts, don't know so thought i would ask


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 10, 2002)

i've also learned to bodythrust into the tree my friends land lord called me this morning and asked if i would dead wood his pin oak today so i looked at it and told him yes i would. got up in it to 30' w/no probs and yes i was secured and do know proper purning techniques and no i didn't gaff up either:angel:


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 10, 2002)

Actually, you can hold on easier when the spar moves side to side. You let the pole move and balance in the middle (kinda like dancing). If you are directly in line with your cut (behind your back cut), you have no good way to let your legs and arms absorb the shock. Plus you should NEVER be directly in line with your back cut, in the air or on the ground.

I must disagree with Top-It. With a narrow notch, the top starts to go over and the butt pushes the spar back. As the top has the greatest amount of side force on the spar, your notch breaks loose. 
With a wider notch, the top starts to go over, pushes the spar back, the spar springs back pushing the top away from the spar as the top breaks free. It is a smoother release of energy, instead of the top 'popping' off when fully tensioned to the side.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 10, 2002)

cool. i knew i was dangerous to cut w/the bar in-line with your body but that was just a thought  what you said makes sense though


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 10, 2002)

Back at the begining of my climbing career I was taught to climb with spikes. the best way that I can see to get comfy on spikes is to climb with an overhead climbing system in place. Set a rope in a false crotch like normal. You should have a copy of The Tree Climber's Companion. Then, if you need to learn how to set a false crotch from the ground you can refer to the illustrations. With the overhead tie in you will be on a belay at all times. Kind of like having a safety net under you.

Do small, low work at first and move higher and bigger as your comfort level grows. Always have two points of attachment when using a chain saw. Not a bad idea when doing sketchy handsaw work either.

Learn how to set up and Adjustable False Crotch. So a search here, this has been discussed pretty thoroughly. The AFC really shines when you get to the point of working the spar. You will always be tied into a safe climbing system that will get you to the ground under control. The flat strap system that Sherrill sells has some real limitations. Besides, you can make one up using parts that you probably have on hand for almost no cost.

Keep your knees away from the trunk. It helps to be a bit bow legged  If you get your knees close to the trunk you'll be more likely to cut out.

It seems to me the best way to reduce the amount of spar whip is to cut an open face followed by a plunge cut, leaving a strap on the back. You can put the chainsaw away, get yourself over to the side and finish the cut with a handsaw. The top should hinge over and not hang up on the hinge wood. If the top stays attached to the spar it pulls the spar in the direction of fall. When the hinge breaks the spar recoils. That's where the whip comes from. If the spar can hinge and let go you should have minimal whipping.

Be careful of the whip. If the trunk isn't solid you have the added risk of breaking the spar. Anyone who know's about how Pete Donzelli was killed will have a huge respect for the whip on a trunk 

Glad that you're connected here!

Tom


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 10, 2002)

how was he killed? how much expereance


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 10, 2002)

i would only be inline with the axis of the hinge (behind), when i'm sure it is good wood and it is going the other way. i guess i top diffrent than i cut trees down, the top is younger and more 'elastic' to me (thinking mostly of pines). And some stuff size and lean wise i can have total control over. i know i'm not no hot shot, tree jockey, getting 'cheap' thrills (Oxymoronic usage?) that i don't want any more pull twanging crossways across the top of the spar as possible, so i try to release with minimum force at the strongest point (to me) of the spar (down into it rather than across).

i try to get the top to release early, forced by its own balance, pulling line, sometimes pushing to the target. i cut a hinge in almost 1/2 way then eliminate wood from the sides of the backcut, but before i make the finishing backcut, just leaving a narrower block of fibre leading from the back of the tree to the center of the hinge(all the way back to the most leveraged position agianst the hinge, providing most security from top falling into hinge.). Then i want my 020 for most of them, i look at the combination of the speed of the saw, and the reduced fibre to cut in the final, releasing back cut as setting myself up with as high a speed coming thru as possible. i can always make the cut go slower by backing off the trigger, now i have set up the conditions for the most wideband control of speed possible, by tweaking the ceiling of the speed end of the band. So i take that into the backcut, right in line with the 2 pre-backcuts on the sides

Then, if i can i try to get the top to launch and seperate @1:00 or so, i think that the resultant kick goes down through the pillar strength of the spar at that point, rather than the spar seperating as it flows through angles that would push, pull (from 2:00 - 4:00) with their 'opposite and opposing reactions' across the most leveraged point against the tree's anchoring. i don't have to deal with Rog.'s anti spinning efforts to save lumber though.

Also, i feel that when it launches early it has minimum force, than after it has traveled on hinge some, gathering momentum. On the ground, when i make a tree hang on a hinge longer it depends more on the stump for anchoring. So i wouldn't try to 3:1 leverage a tree really slowly over that had a weakened root structure. Also in rigging the more i use the holding wood of the hinge for manipulation and control of the load, the farther out i come from my final finishing cut (on trims) so that the deeper disturbed fibre doesn't flow ito the parent connection (at finishing cut). So, to me it would follow,that the more you use a hinge, the more it pulls etc. on it's anchor, as it ushers the load. So if i'm standing on said anchor, i try to think of it like that. 

So i try to tip the top over to where i know it is committed as i start the final backcut, and then fly threw cut, with the fastest saw, going through the least amount of fibre possible, getting a clean seperation. Thinking of balanced tops, from side to side across the hinge.

i think at that point i am at minimum force, delivered down the srongest axis of the spar (down rather than across). All situations don't fit that, but that is what i try to draw to. At any rate, IMAO having the backcut set with minumum fibre for release and fast saw, should give you most speed control to release the top as you see fit, and play with all these theories, finding what yu have a feel and understanding for.

i try to take that minimimized force, and any 'recoil', and try to 'hang in the air' seperately from the spar with my body (any body at rest.........), and slow down, or dampen any kick in the spar with my arm(s) and puny body. When i get this all going right, that is about nil (the 'recoil'!). 

Sometimes on tops i will use a kerf facecut/notch, or kerf with slight lip cut off at the end (to allow a definite amount of easier tipping to face), and with enough of it's own or our provided pull, make my pre-backcuts from the side and fly through the final backcut when i'm ready to make the kerf slam shut and the top to jump out farther, maybe over flowers, or over a fence and down hill to the truck! In some situations (keep ground guys out of the way, help there pull etc.), when everything is right i will help push from behind. In this 'hopping' procedure, sometimes the more force the better (Don't let'em flex the spar over near you), so i might help with behind push for max. jump.

I've down it Brian's way too, kinda like a timing of catching the kickback and setting it against the recoil, quite a touch sometimes! But, i seem to find the minimum recoil in the sizes i deal with from tipping it forward what i have to, and flying thru the wood immediately, for that total clean release,with no "kickback' , like that you get when you drop a branch or log straight,flat down with an immediate, timed release, flying through the cut.


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 10, 2002)

I see your point, Ken. Your pic makes it easy to see that a 2 o'clock release will generate the most sideways force against the spar. But when it reaches closer to a horozontal, the vast majority of energy is heading toward the ground, not back against the spar. I find that the top falls away from the spar without recoil when you finish the separation at about a 80*-90* angle.
Either way, releasing the top at a 2 o'clock profile will give you a heckuva ride. Earlier or later is better.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 11, 2002)

what do ya'll think of the 191T as a climbing saw???


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## Stumper (Sep 11, 2002)

You've all given me a lot to watch and think about. I used to remove a lot of Ponderosa pines-usually green. My SOP was to climb skinning the spar on the way up and cut the top out at about 4" diameter. I frequently used a step cut (scored the side it was going to go and then cut from the back slightly above the score) to jump the top out *or* hinge it over with no notch to keep it in close to the trunk. Neither way seemed to give me any extreme whipping-I did wave around a little but wind was more of a problem up there than a Christmas tree sized top.


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## Stumper (Sep 11, 2002)

By the way Ryan. After 30 years in the biz I'm learning to climb on gaffs too. Thanks for starting the thread.


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## rbtree (Sep 11, 2002)

heavy, underpowered, poor design

Try a 335 XPT or 020T, or 3400 Echo


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## Stumper (Sep 11, 2002)

I was typing earlier and missed your question about the 019T. I am in the minority on the site but i really like the 019T. RB is a thoughtful wise and courteous fellow but he and I disagree on this one!


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## Nickrosis (Sep 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Willock _
> *how was he killed? how much expereance *



Peter Donzelli Dies 
Peter S. Donzelli '89 was killed Aug. 29 in an accident working as a tree surgeon for a local company. He was an avid arborist who was helping to prepare a lightning-scarred tree for removal. 

Donzelli received his B.S. (1989), M.S. (1991), and Ph.D. (1995) from the Department of Mechanical Engineering, Aeronautical Engineering, and Mechanics at Rensselaer. He served as a postdoctoral research associate in the Scientific Computation Research Center (SCOREC) from 1995 until 1997, when he joined the department of biomedical engineering as research assistant professor. Donzelli had recently left Rensselaer to pursue opportunities with software companies that focus on finite element modules of soft tissue.

"Peter was first and foremost a caring individual with the highest personal standards," said Robert Spilker, chair of biomedical engineering. "He was a pleasure and inspiration to work with and always devoted his considerable energies and talents to his projects and interactions with colleagues and students. In his years at Rensselaer, Peter made significant contributions to bioengineering research in human joints."

Memorial contributions may be made to the Peter S. Donzelli Memorial Fund of the Biomedical Engineering Department at Rensselaer. 

Nick again.....This man made monumental steps in the process of rigging for our industry. Take a look at these links (a little slow - the files have to cross the Atlantic):
PDF http://www.arborist.de/pd_98-friction.pdf
PDF http://www.arborist.de/pd_98-friction.pdf - my favorite, partly because Stanley Longstaff was involved 
http://www.arborist.de/pd_engineering_conzepts.htm
http://www.arborist.de/pd_saving_friction.htm
When the Euc Man Met the Doctor (P.D.'s obituary by Don Blair)
http://www.arborist.de/peter_donzellis_work.htm

Nickrosis


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 11, 2002)

When i commented on MM's comments, having to agree with him, that is what i was wondering if y'all were doing, waiting for the pull toward the ground directly for release, so that the energy went down thru the spar rather than across.

i also kinda think, at one point the spar is being pushed back by the top, then if seperation hasn't taken place yet the top starts to pull the spar forward rather than back, but still across the spar rather than down into it. i kinda think y'all are saying you wait for the top to go thru these positions of it's movements, and releasing it after 4o'clock?


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## FBerkel (Sep 11, 2002)

That's my understanding, Spider. Dwayne Neustater teaches that technique as a topping option. (using a greater than 90 degree face, maybe 120 degrees).

I see the advantage of the wide face as a kind of "sliding off" release, in addition to the one you mention. I think there is also a lower chance of splitting the spar on release. Have to admit I haven't used it much, though, too uncertain about how it's going to land. 



Tom: didn't Dr. Peter's tree fail from the initial pushing-back on the spar, as the top began to lean, not from the whip after release?


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## Kevin (Sep 11, 2002)

Isn`t it odd that there doesn`t appear to be a standard for dropping a top on the (generally speaking) perfect tree?
Everyone seems to be doing their own thing and I`m not seeing any kind of standard cutting process like we have for felling a tree from the ground.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 11, 2002)

FB,

There is some disagreement on exactly how the tree failed when Pete cut the top out. Whipping or pulling the top, really doesn't mean much, my friend is gone. Being very careful of loading the spar is the more important lesson for me. Also, the way that people are connected and the effect that some people have was evident in the hours and weeks after Pete died.
*****************

There seems to be a bit of disagreement on how to take the tops out of spars or the tips off limbs. Get out your coppy of the workbook that accompanies The Art and Science of Practical Rigging, ASPrN, and read pages 136-138. If you don't have the workbook or video set, they can both be purchased seperately, from the ISA. This program's outline was written, mostly, by Pete Donzelli. This is another of the "Must Have" books and videos. One of the best educational series available. If you're an ISA member you get a discount.

I'm not going to transcribe the text. To summarize, they recommend a face larger than 45 degrees. Get the book and videos, you deserve it.

Tom


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 11, 2002)

cool. is there any why i can buy the arbormast tapes one or two at a time??? i can't currently afford to buy the whole set right now


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 11, 2002)

is this typically a slow time of year for tree work???


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## Nickrosis (Sep 11, 2002)

You've got spring which is the most action, most people calling, the "I need you here yesterday" people. So, when you can, you talk people into dormant pruning or at least waiting until later.

In summer, the calls have slowed down a lot, and you're catching up on things. With a long winter ahead, though, you're thinking of how to stay busy.

With fall, you've got clean-ups, odd jobs, some regular customers, but generally much slower than earlier.

W i n t e r. It gets cold around me, but the work must go on. We try to book enough work to have 4 days a week of dormant pruning, which is usually the best time of year for pruning anyways. We plow snow too, which helps.

Nickrosis


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 11, 2002)

Is it time for a new thread? Climbing on gaffs to business ???

Tom


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## Greg (Sep 11, 2002)

This topping discussion goes round and round. For a long time I used a humbolt type cut with the thought that it would help the top slip off the face if I accidentially cut the hinge. As a result of many discussions on the topic I have tried every type of cut -except the plunge. And find that a big fat wide open face gives me less movement. I do quite a few tall skinney(60ft +) pines so I am no stranger to a tree swaying back and forth after I take the top out.
My advice on topping a tree.... Go higher into the thin stuff, if you are not comfy with the height keep playing around until you are. Make your cuts perfect! Don't kill the saw the moment you see the top moving, you need to establish a good hinge, stay in the cut until you do. Use a webbing strap as a safty girthed around the tree, they always make me feel more secure. Use your center attachment on your saddle instead of the side d's, if you do kick out the center attachment will help your flipline bite faster than the wider attachemnt you would have at your side d's. Use a pull line in the top of the tree and tell the groundies not to pull until your cut is perfect and you signal. Tops are fun, but be confident that you know what you are doing -this is the most dangerous part of taking a tree down. I never feel as secure on spikes as I do on a rope. 
Greg


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## murphy4trees (Sep 11, 2002)

I just bought a pair of Bashlin climbers from a local dealer. Got 'em home and realized there was no upper pads included. Dealer siad they didn't come with upper pads.. for $220 they should have .. don't you think? So then I checked in American Arborist's catalogue.. there they were ...Aluminum Bashlin's $220..complete. 
Local dealer swears he's telling the truth.. the upper pads are extra. I was goiong to (and did) get the B'ham velcso wraps anyhow.. Do you think he was gaggin' me?.. 
I like him and he does have a few tricks up his sleave.
Maybe I should have tried the Geckos from Sherrill. Would have actually been cheaper. Anybody using Gecko's?
God Bless,
Daniel


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 11, 2002)

i looked at the gekos before i bought the buckinghams but didn't know wheirther or not they would be safe on a pine. i had thought about useing a webbing sling before but didn't know if it was a good idea or not:angel:


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## Treeman14 (Sep 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Willock _
> *is this typically a slow time of year for tree work??? *



No way. This is always our busiest time, right up till November or so.


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## Kevin (Sep 11, 2002)

Tom,
Is this what you would call the "industry standard"?


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## FBerkel (Sep 11, 2002)

Tom,

Sorry I made an acedemic exercise out of something with such obvious emotional content.

-Fred


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## coydog (Sep 11, 2002)

i use geckoes because i have sensitive shins ( i used to climb with buckinghams with soccer pads underneath). I like them but i don't use them everyday, i think they might wear out with daily heavy use, but for my purposes they are heaven. by far the most comfortable not to mention lightweight gaffs i have found yet. but they aren't the most heavy duty, and could have a tendency to kick out in punky wood, i keep them sharp and they work very well in hardwoods especially.
another reason to tie into the center ring on your harness when topping is if the spar splits it is less likely injure the climber than if tied to side rings.
no first hand experience here but mike maas brought this up in an earlier thread and i thought it was worth repeating, its something i've been trying to do(when i remember).


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 11, 2002)

Kevin wrote: Is this what you would call the "industry standard"?

Is this directed at me? I can't follow what you're asking. Please clarify.

Fred wrote: Sorry I made an acedemic exercise out of something with such obvious emotional content.

Same as above, I'm confused 

These threads get a little loopy and hard to follow. Seems to be a little easier to talk about climbing with gaffs in one thread and the seasonal pace of work in a new thread. 

See you guys next week, I'm heading up to St Cloud, just south and a little east of Lake Wobegon, for our chapter conference and TCC. Be back Monday.

Tom


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 12, 2002)

just signed up for the arbormaster class!


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 16, 2002)

Good morning everyone,

I've been gaffing for probally 1 1/2 years and I've been thinking about getting a new saddle soon,and I was just interested in which one's you guy's like to use when gaffing?I prefer seperate leg strap saddles I don't know about you guy's though...I'll have to give Sherill a call and order a new one soon I guess.

Later Rob....


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## Kevin (Sep 16, 2002)

You might consider a saddle with shoulder straps or suspenders if you plan on having a saw hanging off your belt.


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kevin _
> *You might consider a saddle with shoulder straps or suspenders if you plan on having a saw hanging off your belt. *



WHY?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 16, 2002)

Maybe because it would take some of the load of your waist and put it on your shoulders, particularly while running the 084 in the tree.

The choics between lag straps and swing seat type saddles will depend on your climbing style. The leg straps allow more flexability but the trade off is they are less comfortable to hang off the rope in.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 16, 2002)

i'm no pro but i like the floating double D saddle that i got from wes spur, has seperate leg straps


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## Kevin (Sep 16, 2002)

Prevents climbers crack.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 23, 2002)

climbed 30' today and limbed the pine as i went up with my fano's learned how to use a blake's hitch last week, now as i gaff my way up i am using my flip line and climbing line


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## kf_tree (Sep 23, 2002)

ryan
one thing that i think went unsaid in this thread is, take baby steps. don't try and take big strides when spiking up a tree. just take lots of little steps going up. it saves the legs on big removals.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 23, 2002)

i only take about a 6" step at a time anyway i'm short so its not like i can take a big step, i'm 5'10"


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 24, 2002)

limbed a pine up to 30' today with my fano's and then repeled down and droped it. had to limb it to clear a dogwood


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2002)

The way i learned it is don't take steps more then boot top high. 

Juts dont follow that advise if wearing lineman boots


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## Stumper (Sep 24, 2002)

Appropriate for hip boots though, right?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2002)

If you want to gaff in waders..... Phhhhttttt


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 25, 2002)

went up to 35' again today i really appreciate all the help and advice!!!!! since i have been using a life line and a blake's hitch for a backup i have had almost no fear of hight...almost if possible i would like to talk to some of ya'll on the phone some time. i have been thinking about a knot that isn't listed in any of the books that i think might make a good knot for securing yourself in a pine and repeling back down when your done in the tree. i can't quite discribe it on the computer, i sure some of ya'll use this knot now for some thing or orther. i don't know its name can't find it listed either.
thanks,
ryan


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 25, 2002)

Know someone with a digicam? Post a picture.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 25, 2002)

my girlfriend has one, i just can't get the pic's shrunk to postem 
if i can't figure it out soon i'll send them to brain and let him shrink them


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 25, 2002)

I don't have a digital camera, but I have my pics put on floppy disc when I get them developed. An extra $8 or so at Walgreen's.


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## Kevin (Sep 25, 2002)

Here`s a few ...
http://community-1.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots/

After trying a few I settled into the 3 over 2 Distel ...thanks to Tom.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 25, 2002)

after you have them converted do you still have to shrink them???


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## Nickrosis (Sep 26, 2002)

E-mail the pictures to me, I'll shrink them and send them back to you. I should be able to figure that out....I'm the webmaster for 19 websites.






Nickrosis


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 26, 2002)

cool thanks nick, 70' what a thrill!!!!!! went to 70' in an oak today, not on gaffs but still!! took a little getting used to but after that i was fine. just kept my mind on what i was doing and its all good


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2004)

Not a bad thread.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

You need to turn one of your ranting vid streams into an Avatar. The we can have the real Butch Bellows nodding his head and wavin his (index) finger around


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## rumination (Mar 19, 2004)

thanks for digging that one up MB. some good info in there.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Mar 19, 2004)

the only way you will conquer your fears is to get some work with a good crew ,watch and learn from them .then you have ago .but nobody likes spikeing that much although they may do it 2 or3 times a week..but honestly try and get with a good crew..if there are no jobs avalable ask them if you can come and help out on a job or 2 show willing and youll soon get work this is the best way to learn..and once youve seen it done learned etc..you will feel a lot more confident


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## Jumper (Mar 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ryan Willock _
> i trust my gear but still have a problem w/ the hight.:
> 
> 
> ...


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2004)

I loves me some heights!!!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 20, 2004)

I do to, as long as I'm tied in.

I'ts funny for me on a rock face. If im on a ledge secured it's cool. If I dont have the tie in I get a little stressed


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## BigJohn (Mar 20, 2004)

I think a good way to get over your fear of heights is fall a couple of times from a good 30 feet or so. It did me good. I don't worry so much knowing that a 30 and 40 foot fall did no harm what would 90 feet do maybe a broken leg. Crane removals can still be done with fractured femor and pelvis. It just hurts a little when you lean back and your saddle pulls you together. You can't be affraid to get to hurt. You need to desensitize yourself to pain.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2004)




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## jamie (Mar 20, 2004)

*jumps*

i know a company who would regularily all get on a low branch, with high tie ins and take a lot of slack ut of their ropes and jump, the person who was closest to the ground won, they use ropes with a lot of elasticity, a lot of fun im sure



jamie


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## BigJohn (Mar 20, 2004)

I did something like that once. I was tied into an ash tree and swung out onto the roof of a flat top house. As I walked back to the other side of the house I let out slack, then ran across the roof and dove off falling into my line then hitting my knot swinging trying to hit a bulls eye on the ground. I was pretending it was competition time. Its alot of fun accept for the part where your falling into the slack. Good thing the roof wasn't longer I may hit ground before I ran out of slack.


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by BigJohn _
> *I think a good way to get over your fear of heights is fall a couple of times from a good 30 feet or so. It did me good. I don't worry so much knowing that a 30 and 40 foot fall did no harm what would 90 feet do maybe a broken leg. Crane removals can still be done with fractured femor and pelvis. It just hurts a little when you lean back and your saddle pulls you together. You can't be affraid to get to hurt. You need to desensitize yourself to pain. *




With all do respect John, I think a 90 ft. fall would result in so sort of paralyses. If not death. I hope I never fall 30 or 40 ft. Some people have given up treecare as a result of a fall of that distance.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2004)

I was a'hoping John was talking with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek... for what reason, I don't know.


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## OutOnaLimb (Mar 20, 2004)

The higher you get up there, the smaller pieces you will have to deal with. When I first started climbing I would progressively get higher and higher in a tree and look down at my mentor and all he would do was give me the thumbs up to go a bit higher. Looking back now, small pieces are the easiest to deal with. When a top comes out, pop the chain brake on your saw, push out on the cut cut stub with your free hand and enjoy the ride.:Monkey:


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## Stumper (Mar 20, 2004)

Big John's tongue must be in his cheek-if not his brain isn't in his head. I watched my father fall 17 feet and break his back. By God's grace he can walk again-the doctors don't know why. I was a cautious climber before that. Now I stay on the ground whenever possible and climb with great care when I have to go up. Trusting one's rope is good. Thinking we are immortal is STUPID.:angel:


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## OutOnaLimb (Mar 21, 2004)

The one thing I learned early on was that it is OK to be scared $hitless, that is what is going to keep you safe. When you lose your respect for the sky and the tree and almighty gravity, that my friend is when you wind up being the subject of a post on the aboricultural injuries and fatalities forum. Just use common sense and climb safe.:Monkey:


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 21, 2004)

I gotta disagree with the scared part. That should disappear early on as the climber becomes more proficient and at ease with his skills. Being alert and aware will get you a lot further than being fearful.

G. F. Beranek addresses this in his book "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work'. Here is a reprint of his view;


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by BigJohn _
> *You need to desensitize yourself to pain. *



I've been working on that for 15 years, I wake up in pain


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## rbtree (Mar 21, 2004)

More to improve balance than conquer fear is the sport of slacklining. Well, the fear factor surely comes into play when the line is set at height.

Slacklining is similar to tightrope walking, but using 1 inch webbing which has some stretch. It was started by Yosemite Camp 4 climbers looking for diversion. 

http://ms101.mysearch.com/jsp/GGmain.jsp?searchfor=slacklining


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## BigJohn (Mar 21, 2004)

I guess I have just been really lucky both times. I still believe that as long as there is some soft ground beneith you it won't be so bad. If I am working in a wooded area with a lot of big bolders underneath me or over one of the iron fences with spears I know I don't have much of chance. I think if you fall the right way you should be able to walk away from it. Confidence in yourself and your gear should help too overcomeing fear. I think fear can really slow a man down and actually hurt him. 

JP you really should see doc about that pain or get a second opinion. Its amazing what surgeons can do today. I lived 5 years with the shoulder until I decided to get it fixed.


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *Big John,
> 
> I just read your post to my wife and she wants to know if both times if you fell on your head?
> ...





That's a good one!!!


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## BigJohn (Mar 23, 2004)

I don't believe in only type of face cut for blowing the top out of a tree. It all depends on what I have going on on the ground and what kind of room I have and what I want it to do. The depth and how open the angle of the face determine exactly what the top will do. Like every cut I make I am always makeing a cut that will work best for the conditions at hand.


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 24, 2004)

I don't have a fear of heights anymore as long as I'm tied in. That thread was from two years ago when I was learning to climb.


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## ptar (Mar 24, 2004)

*Top Pushing Off While Topping*

A top does not 'pushing off'.
In this case, the force is the mass of the top
times gravity (F=mg) and it is acting downward.
There is no horizontal component.
What causes the swing is the bending
moment at the hinge caused by the top
falling. The moment is equal to the force (mg)
times the horizontal distance from the center
of mass of the top (M=Fd). 
The bending moment is maximum when the
top is horizontal since this is when the
leverage arm is the longest.


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