# New Wood Furnace Help!



## Xjunk (Sep 6, 2011)

Need some advice on a new wood furnace. I am replacing a wore out Longwood (great furnace hate to see go, but its time) I THINK I have it narrowed down to a Energy King 385 EPA model or a 2900 WoodChuck. Have a 2500 sq ft house, the 385 is rated for up to 2000 but I'm told with it being more efficient it will do fine. The fire box seems small and I am concerned about decent burn times. I currently get a good 12+ hrs and being gone all day it works well. The Woodchuck has a good size firebox but have been told it really eats the wood. The other issue is if I am burning poor quality wood would I be better off with the larger woodchuck which is not EPA? Sounds like the EPA furnaces have to have premium wood to work properly. If anyone has any opinions or some actual experience with burn times it would be greatly appreciated.


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## leon (Sep 6, 2011)

*wood furnace*




You should look at the Harmon 
wood and coal furnaces as an option
to replace your existing unit.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 6, 2011)

2,500 Square Foot is a big house. How well insulated is it? Are you heating the full 2,500 Sq Ft? What was the BTU rating of the previous furnace? (ie. a lb of wood at 15% humidity is worth about 7,200 BTU so you might be able to discern what a full load was worth on high fire). The problem you'll have is if you undersize it, your furnace will be over working and blower will be cycling on/off too fast.

Neither of the furnace you are looking at are EPA rated. If this is what you are looking for you should look at the PSG Max Caddy. It meets the CSA B415.1 clean burning regulation which is what EPA is 'likely' to adopt for Biomass Central Heating. see the model here Wood and wood-oil-electric trio furnaces : PSG Max Caddy

It's rated up to 3,000 Ft. It's the only wood furnace I'm aware of that the blower will modulate speed depending on the plenum temp. What that means is your registers heat will be constant, only the air velocity will fluctuate. That's why it gets up to 85% efficiency which means you'll be using at least 1/3rd less cordwood per season.

It gets out about 135,000 BTU on High fire and it averages about 90,000. Despite its size it only needs a 6" flue so you save on your installation. You can also put in an oil burner and/or an electric element for backup. You can also put in a water pre-heating loop for your hot water tank. 

One of the few furnaces on the market as well that has a full glass with air wash so you can see what's going on without opening the door.

Where about are you in OH? There's quite a few dealers there and one of the PO on here has one, so he can tell you more about it. 

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## laynes69 (Sep 7, 2011)

We have the little brother of the Max Caddy. We went from a basic inefficient furnace to a EPA model. The firebox was a little over half the size of the old furnace. There were a few things we observed. The heat isn't as intense as the old furnace but it eliminated the huge temperature swings in the home. We burn during the shoulder season cleanly without running us out of the home. Because of the efficiency differences, we get longer consistant burns. They do require seasoned wood, but you get more btus that way instead of wasting wood burning more that's not seasoned. Our neighbor had a woodchuck. It's built well but very inefficient. The 385 looks like a well built furnace, but there are things I wonder about in the design. If your home isn't tight and well insulated I don't think I will be enough. Overall I'm much happier with our upgrade.


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## Xjunk (Sep 7, 2011)

I guess I should get some facts straight. the house is actually 2000 sf but poorly insulated and drafty. I was told by a hvac contractor to size a furnace based on a 2500 sf home due to this. My old furnace is 150,000 btu's and had no problem. I also have a propane furnace- which did not run at all last year, and it is 85,000 btu's. My main objective is to reduce wood consumption and still maintain long burn times. Not set on an EPA furnace just seems they will be more efficient. Typically the wood I burn is well seasoned, just not always the best quality hardwood.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 7, 2011)

You owe it to yourself to look at our Super Jack 125.

Super Jack Add On Wood Furnace by Yukon Eagle

This furnace uses up flow gasification to burn off the smoke from the top of the fire. By doing so you are making the other 30%-40% of the available btu's that normally are not made and wasted being vented out the flue.
This in itself will give you longer burn times and drop wood consumption by half over what your old Longwood was capable of providing.

You will also notice that the SJ125 has a massive heat exchanger to exchange the btu's that you are looking for in your home. The beauty of the secondary heat exchanger is that in your more mild times of the heating season you can elect to not use it. Having too big of a furnace can cause a smoldering situation when the call for heat is low. There are many other air adjustments as well that you can modify to fine tune your burn rate.

The firebox is about as heavy duty as any on the market although it is different in that it is a round constructed box. By adding the roll in the 7 gauge steel it adds strength hence the 30 yr warranty.

Talking about air adjustment. The draft motor has a disc on the side that allows you to add or cut off the main combustion air to the fire. When the Honeywell digital thermostat calls for heat the draft blower drives the fire into to really hot burn. The heat rises into the plenum where the Honeywell fan and limit switch will cycle a blower driving heat through out your home. When the stat becomes satisfied the stat will cease the call shutting down the draft blower. This does not mean the furnace goes cold. The fire still gets some air through a natural draft process the the fire.
When the fire is unable to heat the home because it is out there is a interlock switch that shuts the furnace down letting your back up operate until you restart a fire.
Normally you would load the SJ125 in the A.M. & P.M. for a 24/7 burn with seasoned hardwood.

It has a pretty good size ash pan so your only dumping ashes once a week.

With the size house you have the SJ125 can and will heat it with the kind of burn times you are accustomed to and it is built generic enough to fit your install needs....hence the term add on.

I should add that we now have a version which is really made for Canada that has an insulated cabinet to boot.
Also all Yukon furnaces are UL listed for the U.S. and Canada.


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## Coldfront (Sep 7, 2011)

I was thinking of getting a add on wood furnace, but how do the insurance company's like them??
Right now with my free standing Pacific Energy with double wall stove pipe I only pay an extra $45 per year for the wood stove.


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## laynes69 (Sep 7, 2011)

As long as the unit is tested and everything is installed according to the manual and code it shouldn't be a problem. Our insurance company didn't care. Furnaces aren't for everyone but they are a good option for heating.


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## laynes69 (Sep 7, 2011)

Don't overlook energy upgrades on the home. Theres alot that can be done with very little money. Airsealing is important, and every crack or hole thats fixed will yield savings and comfort. I sealed multiple holes, cracks and cavities that added up to a hole larger than 6 feet, major heat loss. With some flashing that I had laying around with some caulk and expanding foam I lowered our heat load by at least 15-20%. The attic and basement are two of the worst offenders when it comes to this. Down the road if your considering insulation, dense packed cellulose will not only insulate but stop air infiltration. Its something that will pay you back forever in comfort and savings as well as burning less wood. Here is a great link that explains alot on airsealing.

http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/stella/filelib/TBC_Guide_062507.pdf


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## Xjunk (Sep 7, 2011)

Ok so I looked at a 2900 woodchuck today. previously only seen a 529 and it was just the front as it was in a display setting. Got to see the inside and top heat exchanger. I will say it is built like a tank and no doubt it would last forever but I was disappointed in the design. Does not look very efficient at all. Not sure how they get the claimed 78% efficiency, looks to me like a lot of heat will get lost up the chimney. Dealer did not have anything good to say about the optional catalyst either. I have looked at the smaller PSG Caddy, still on the fence with it. Just didn't seem to be as durable as the others. I would like to know if the glass actually stays clean? I visualize it getting black after a few years, even with the air wash. So with that said I am now intrigued by the super jack and comparing it to the cheaper energy king I'm coming up with very similar specs. Both having plus and minus. Taking the warranty and the price out of the equation my biggest concern is the blower cfm on the super jack only having one speed. Not sure what the cfm is on my longwood but it doesn't have enough to heat the house evenly. The far end of the house gets little air flow. (furnace is at one end not centered) My propane has no problem, its much more powerful. Maybe this is not truly an issue, it just seems to stand out. Also how much sf is the super jack rated for? Both have same btu's but I've read people with 3000sf homes heating all winter with the jack and the EK is only rated for 2000sf? Anyone out there know anything about the Energy King to critique it?


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## laynes69 (Sep 7, 2011)

Have you ever done a heat loss calculation on your home to get a better idea on whats needed for heating? If your longwood won't distribute the heat through the home its either not burning well, your ductwork isn't sized correctly or your heat loss is too great. We will be on season 3 and our glass looks like new. Its wet wood and smoldering fires that causes black glass. Where are you located in Ohio?


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 8, 2011)

Xjunk said:


> Ok so I looked at a 2900 woodchuck today. previously only seen a 529 and it was just the front as it was in a display setting. Got to see the inside and top heat exchanger. I will say it is built like a tank and no doubt it would last forever but I was disappointed in the design. Does not look very efficient at all. Not sure how they get the claimed 78% efficiency, looks to me like a lot of heat will get lost up the chimney. Dealer did not have anything good to say about the optional catalyst either. I have looked at the smaller PSG Caddy, still on the fence with it. Just didn't seem to be as durable as the others. I would like to know if the glass actually stays clean? I visualize it getting black after a few years, even with the air wash. So with that said I am now intrigued by the super jack and comparing it to the cheaper energy king I'm coming up with very similar specs. Both having plus and minus. Taking the warranty and the price out of the equation my biggest concern is the blower cfm on the super jack only having one speed. Not sure what the cfm is on my longwood but it doesn't have enough to heat the house evenly. The far end of the house gets little air flow. (furnace is at one end not centered) My propane has no problem, its much more powerful. Maybe this is not truly an issue, it just seems to stand out. Also how much sf is the super jack rated for? Both have same btu's but I've read people with 3000sf homes heating all winter with the jack and the EK is only rated for 2000sf? Anyone out there know anything about the Energy King to critique it?




The SJ125 can heat homes up to 4000 s/f. The 1460 cfm blower is a 4 speed blower which your home only needs about 1500 or 600 cfm's per 1000 s/f.
You are correct about Woodchucks being built like tanks. The Jacks are too only with the twin firebox we are able to preheat the combustion air for the up flow gasification....Like I said the SJ125 may seem like an over kill but it can be set up to make as little as 75,000 btus.
In fact the BJ90 could heat your home maybe a bit shorter burn times though....but without knowing how well the home is insulated or what it's heat loss is I've jumped to the SJ.

The only way you really win in this investment is that the wood burns 24/7 without any liquid fuel burning. You have to pay someone to heat your home...it may as well be you that you write the check too.

XJunk...if you want an B415 rated furnace,you'll have to buy Canadian.The U.S. does not have testing protocols here in the U.S. yet and does not rate U.S. made furnaces.
I think you want an efficient furnace though that is well built...strong . The Jacks are exactly what you are looking for.
If you do not like the blower you can go to Graingers and buy a bigger one...not that you would need it in my opinion.
CK


Here are a few Jack testimonials....

Andrew Jerry
Sanbornton, NH

"I had a friend install a super jack wood burning hot air unit in my home in Candia NH six years ago after trying to heat my 2800 square foot home with a thermo pride oil unit for the first 3 heating systems. The unit has performed as advertised and testified to on the Yukon site. Prior to installation I was using approximately 1500 gallons of number two fuel to kept the house around 68 degrees in fairly new construction with low e glass, 2x6 construction and ample insulation. I now use 200-300 gallons a year for hot water and the occasional laziness of not wanting to walk down to the basement to fill the unit. The majority of the wood I cut off my own land and use between 5 and 6 cords of mostly red oak and maple. This year I had to buy wood because I fell behind due to an injury and purchased 4 cords for 500.00 to catch up. To purchase oil to supplement would have cost significantly more. I have the add on blower and occasionally since it is interconnected with the hot air furnace the unit will trigger the oil furnace blower to give the system a boost on real cold days. My house is kept between 70- 72 except at night when we let the unit slow down to make for better sleeping weather. Over all the construction is superior and the purchase has paid for itself many times over."



Stay Warm
The Michael Family



Keith,

I received all the parts I ordered on Monday August 15th two days later on Wednesday the 17th. Having bought my Big Jack furnace back in 1981 I was a little concerned that getting parts for it would be difficult.

I live in the Catskill Mountains of New York State . Sullivan County to be exact. The winters here can be harsh. My Big Jack Wood Furnace has went through three floods. The water getting well in the burning chamber each time. The blower motor submerged, the draft inducing motor under twice.

After the first flood all I had to do was change the filter, oil the blower motor and fire it up, the second flood was more damaging, I had to replace the blower motor but it was over 20 years old at that time anyways, the third flood saw the draft inducer motor say enough but it to was 25 years old by that time.

Over the course of the last 30 years now I've replaced the burning grate three times, the fire brick intermittently here and there because my son used to be rough filling the burning chamber, and this is the first time Ive replaced the smoke chamber grates.

Once the Big Jack furnace is lit up in late October it never goes out until well into late march or early April, my house is toasty warm and I look forward to many more years service out of my furnace.

I highly recommend this furnace to anyone thinking of a hot air unit.

thank you for the fast service.




Thanks again. 
Sherrill Brann

"Greetings,

I have owned the SJ125 since 1984 and use it all the time when the temperature goes below 35 degrees. I supplement with a gas furnace during fall and spring. This furnace is well designed and mates well with the all stainless metalbestos chimney installed at the same time. I used to harvest my own wood taking dead and downed wood off of state land, but now I find it more managable to just have wood delivered to the driveway where I stack it for the following winter's use. 

Back to the furnace SJ125. I am heating two geodesic domes encompassing 5500 square feet. I have a 3 car garage below a 2nd dome added in 2004 before I retired. During the winter, I open a 3ft. access door to the garage and this allows radiant heat from the SJ125 (installed in the 1st dome basement) to warm the 3 car garage. When I'm puttering around on the cars and trucks I own, this basement get's to a comfortable 60 degrees making for comfortable working conditions. I am using forced air to heat both domes off of the SJ125, it just perks along every winter without failure giving lots of BTU's of gentle warm air. 

Nothing like wood heat are the comments when folks come into the dome for a visit. I clean the chimney monthly regardless of what I see when I look up the chimney from the basement. Most of the time there is a fine powder attached to the walls of the stainless steel chimney, 10 minutes of chimney maintenance is worth it. Evening news reports here in Northern Michigan there are daily reports of at least one or two chimney fires leading to total loss of the home owner's dwelling.. A shame when a little bit of maintenance would be worth a pound of cure. 



Hi Folks!

My name is Jay McLeod, about three weeks ago (written on June 5, 2008) I received my big jack 90 via truck way over here in Maine. I just want to say that the unit is built like a tank and I am very impressed with all aspects of the furnace. Also your people, with whom I spoke with, were very helpful and straight forward. You guys are doing it right! Thank you! Keep up the good work!

Looking forward to doing business again.
Jay

Hi Keith,

I just wanted to write you a note to say how happy I am with our Big Jack furnace.

I've heated with wood for 35 years but never as efficiently as with our new furnace. It keeps our home (2,200) sq. ft. in Vermont warmer than the previous wood furnace, and the electronic thermostat is amazingly accurate at keeping our home at the selected temperature.

Thank you and Joe

Most Sincerely, 
Susan Underwood

Dear Keith, Steve and everyone else who helped us with our furnace purchase and installation:
Now that the installation of our Big Jack Hot Rod wood burning furnace is complete, I wanted to express my gratitude not only for a terrific, efficient, money saving product but also for all the wonderful patience and support you provided during the installation process. Despite the fact that we called you repeatedly with seemingly endless questions, you were always completely ready, willing and able to provide the answers. We will never forget the incredible customer service and in depth knowledge that you brought to the table. I would highly recommend your company and your products to everyone who wants to invest in the best goods available that are backed by impeccable product knowledge and the ultimate in customer service.

Thank you!

Sincerely, 
Alex and Bree Gurin


I would just like to add a testimonial. I finally have my Big Jack installed. I used to have the larger Eagle. I replaced it because some idiot from a local heating supplier whom was checking it told me the firewall was not good, and could not be replaced as the company went out of business. He lied and I, for the past 7 years have sorely missed my Yukon. I replaced the burner with propane. I absolutely hate propane. It is a cold heat, and expensive. Today we fired up the Big Jack, and it is the warmest my house has been since I replaced the Eagle. I am so, so, happy. I also know I will save mucho money in the long run. Thank-you so much Yukon. Everyone in the company is so helpful, especially Keith. Thanks again.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 9, 2011)

Xjunk said:


> I have looked at the smaller PSG Caddy, still on the fence with it. Just didn't seem to be as durable as the others. I would like to know if the glass actually stays clean? I visualize it getting black after a few years, even with the air wash.



1) +1 on what Laynes69 posted. Your best return on investment is insulation. If you button down your house you will see savings immediately and a lot of it can be done yourself. You should consider this first before any heating appliances.

2) I know the owner of Energy King. Great guy. It would not be fair for me to critique their furnace since I'm a competitor and I've never seen one operate. However, they do have have a good reputation. The EK385 in particular is very efficient.

3) Amish in PA, OH & MI are the biggest fans of the Caddy & Max Caddy. Since many use nothing but wood & coal heat that is a good recommendation. Some of them manufacture coal heater that are built and look like tanks and are also Caddy dealers. As far as solid & durable the hook welded on the heat exchanger is actually to lift the unit. If it wasnt solid you would know right away.

4) Air wash is built right into the unit so the glass stay clean as long as you dont burn wet wood.

5) The reason the Caddy line is smaller than many other brands is because it is EPA rated. Which means you dont need as much wood to accomplish the same BTU. It does a reburn of the smoke with a secondary combustion. If you check the youtube video below that is Laynes69 burning wood in his. Note the fire is all coming from the secondary tubes and this is not forced air, strictly natural draft. Then he shows his chimney with no smoke coming through. 

1950 Hotblast (Caddy) Wood Furnace - YouTube
Hotblast 1950 (Caddy) Wood Furnace 2 - YouTube

Finally here is a video that explains the inner working of the furnace Wood and wood-electric combination furnaces : Caddy - E.P.A. wood or wood-electric combination furnace

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 9, 2011)

Just for clarification the New Source Performance Standard is the EPA Standard for wood heaters in the U.S.
It clearly shows we do not have a testing protocol for testing furnaces like Caddy claims to have here in the US.


HPBA Prepares for NSPS Comments



EPA reports that it is on track to issue its formal first draft of the revised New Source Performance Standards (NSPS) for Wood Heaters early next year. Once issued, the agency will take comments from all interested parties for 60 or 90 days. HPBA is prepared for the possibility that this draft may contain items that are inappropriate, or even unattainable, in the time period given. Because this comment period will be brief, and most likely begin just prior to HPBExpo, much of the preparatory work must be completed in advance. The final rule is scheduled to be published in mid-2013. For questions about the NSPS process, or HPBA's preparations for comments, contact John Crouch, [email protected].


I'd also point out that Yukon has air tubes in it's Eagle line that have been in place for 38 years. It's design had been patented which is why no other furnaces could "copy" it...now that the patent had expired others are using the same technology.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 9, 2011)

Hey Keith, how are you doing? Been fishing lately? Eventually I'll have to go visit you and you take me out on your boat and I'll BBQ for you. One of my fun hobby. I do smoke fish like nobody else. 

About EPA. I think we went over this ad nauseam in this thread here... http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/170779.htm for anyone who wants to get into the itty bitty details.

But yes... Keith is right. EPA for Biomass central heating is not mandated yet. Likely to be announced for January 2012 and will likely take full effect probably in 2014.

However... Any MFG can voluntarily submit their appliances for EPA testing and if they pass, they are legally free to apply the "EPA Certified" logo on their appliance.

It is extremely difficult to pass current EPA with a large firebox. Basically you have to pass the same 7.6 g/hr emission test a tiny little stove would. Think of it of having a dump truck having to get the same miles per gallon as a mini. That is why there are very few manufacturers who can actually pass this test. (only 2 to my knowledge)

That is why the new EPA for Biomass version is likely to copy the CSAB415.1 which will be grams per MBTU. This is much better since it takes into account the size of the unit. However it will be a bit tighter since with this standard also takes into account Efficiencies at different burn rate.

Keith, I suggest you download CSA B415.1 to look into it prior to the announcement.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 9, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> I'd also point out that Yukon has air tubes in it's Eagle line that have been in place for 38 years. It's design had been patented which is why no other furnaces could "copy" it...now that the patent had expired others are using the same technology.



You should be able to sue a whole whack of people then, Secondary air tubes have been in used since the mid eighties by a whole bunch of manufacturers.

Also do you have the patent #? I did a search and could not find any patent with your company name related to 'tubes'.


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## Xjunk (Sep 10, 2011)

Fyrebug said:


> 1) +1 on what Laynes69 posted. Your best return on investment is insulation. If you button down your house you will see savings immediately and a lot of it can be done yourself. You should consider this first before any heating appliances.
> 
> 2) I know the owner of Energy King. Great guy. It would not be fair for me to critique their furnace since I'm a competitor and I've never seen one operate. However, they do have have a good reputation. The EK385 in particular is very efficient.
> 
> ...


 
How are burn times with with the smaller fire box on the caddy, assuming average conditions? My thought is if you have lower quality wood the burn time would suffer dramitcaly as you cannot add extra to counter the low BTUs.


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## lampmfg (Sep 10, 2011)

*Go Green with the Worlds MOST Efficient Forced Air Wood Indoor Furnace*

Do some research on the Kuuma VaporFire furnace line by Lamppa Mfg at Kuuma (Green) Wood Furnaces and Sauna Stoves by Lamppa Manufacturing Inc.. 

Independently tested by Intertek:
-Less than 1 gram of emissions per hour
-99% Combustion Efficiency
-84% Overall Efficiency 

When burning wood it's pretty hard to beat those numbers...



Well it's all about safety, high efficiency, and enhancing our environment when it comes to burning wood using a VaporFire. "Smokeless" burns say it all...

Burning wood is fairly easy, except for the work involved. Paper, kindling, a little firewood, a match, and away you go. But, hold on...to burn wood so that the dreaded and dangerous creosote isn't formed and pollution is curtailed, is quite another story!

Creosote is the highly flammable, sticky substance that all wood possesses and produces extremely high temperatures when it ignites. The chimney fires that can result may cause homes to burn and lives to be lost. It's very dangerous. The air pollution that results from an inefficient wood furnace worsens the air we breathe, which is a huge health concern.

The only real answer in eliminating both the creosote and the pollution is to eliminate the smoke. In simple terms, "NO SMOKE MEANS NO CREOSOTE AND NO POLLUTION." Again, easily said, but hard to do.

We designed both the VaporFire 100 and VaporFire 200 furnaces to eliminate wood smoke. This gets rid of the creosote and air pollution at the same time. If there ever was a GREEN product, the VaporFires are that. They make wood burning safe and more environmentally and operator friendly. They burn wood up to 99% of each burn, "Smokeless." Less than 1 gram per hour of emissions are produced to enhance and not harm our environment. The burn is controlled automatically by simply turning the knob on its unique 24 volt computer for the level of burn you desire. This eliminates the guess work involved in safely and cleanly burning wood. The 24 volt computer does it automatically for you, start to finish.


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## jdc (Sep 10, 2011)

I was apprehensive to spend 3k on something that I couldnt see in person. After taking the plunge on our super jack, I have only praises for it. After the tax credit and $1200 install, it paid for itself in one heating season, replacing $3500 worth of propane in our 3300 square foot house. This year, I am trying to line our chimney and expect greater savings.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 12, 2011)

Fyrebug said:


> You should be able to sue a whole whack of people then, Secondary air tubes have been in used since the mid eighties by a whole bunch of manufacturers.
> 
> Also do you have the patent #? I did a search and could not find any patent with your company name related to 'tubes'.


 
Patents only last 7 years...
Furnace - Tjosvold, David C.

I also forgot to mention that all Yukon furnaces are tested and listed by UL to operate without power. This means you'll have heat in the coldest of times with worring about ruining your fire box by over heating it and causing a leak filling your home with smoke.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 12, 2011)

jdc said:


> I was apprehensive to spend 3k on something that I couldnt see in person. After taking the plunge on our super jack, I have only praises for it. After the tax credit and $1200 install, it paid for itself in one heating season, replacing $3500 worth of propane in our 3300 square foot house. This year, I am trying to line our chimney and expect greater savings.


 

I'm happy to hear you did. I know that with our web site which is like our store ,you can shop sitting right at home.We also provide a toll free phone line so we can help anyone get the correct furnace for their needs at our expence. I know that I like to be involved to make sure the potential customer gets educated...I find I'm always tempering their choice...they think they need bigger because of their past experiences not getting long enough burn times. 
Well when you can cut out the retailer mark up and talk to the folks that actually build them...how can it get any better?
Plus there is no local sales tax...unless you live in Minnesota...sorry Gopher State residents.

When you need parts or tech help a knowledgeable person will take your call. We do things sort of old school around here...when it comes to loyalty...they remain with the customer or more like our family.

I can say that after 15 years here with Yukon I have not only witnessed how we shop our suppliers to ensure we can provide top notch equipment for the best value, but I have been responsible for bringing in Duravent and haggling out pricing so we can sell it at a 30% discount or for what contractors pay which nets out several hundreds if not a thousand off of retail costs. I also have convinced our owner to buy a Pittsburgh machine to make plenums so that if home owners want to tackle the install themselves they can. I've brought on manometers too so the drafts can be set...not a hard thing that you'd other wise pay a contractor handsomely to do.

I also went and brought on same as cash financing.
Some folks really like the furnaces ,but can't afford the initial investment and otherwise would be forced to buy the el'cheapo at the local box store. I saw that in 1 year a customer could get a furnace to recoup itself..hence the financing.Why not buy one when after the 1st heating season it just paid for itself....and we pay for that financing program.

I'm proud to represent Yukon....and I'll stand toe to toe with anyone that wants to claim theirs is better in any catagorie.
We have been at the top for just about 4 decades.
We are the only makers of a true wood/gas furnace in the world that I'm aware of that only needs 1 flue and the gas will lite the wood or coal.
Add in a wood/oil or wood/electric or wood stand alones or wood add ons Yukon's line is complete.
Yes ,we also can preheat your domestic hot water with the Hot Rod.



....and for those companies that want to use AS to peddle their wares I might suggest you do the honorable thing and pay to become a sponser like we do and our friends at Kuuma.
2 great wood burning heating appliance manufactures from Minnesota.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 12, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> ....and for those companies that want to use AS to peddle their wares I might suggest you do the honorable thing and pay to become a sponser like we do.



That is why I sent two email to the Web Admin in the past couple of months wanting to know what the advertising/sponsorship schedule is like and they never responded. I'll send a third one tonite. But if any Mods are reading these posts you can PM me directly.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 12, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> 2 great wood burning heating appliance manufactures from Minnesota.



Amen to that! :msp_thumbup:

I wish more people would support their local business. It's a shame to see good jobs being shipped to China to provide lesser quality products. Companies such as Yukon are to be commended to continue making American quality products with top notch support. Some of these other furnaces we see at some hardware shop can barely stand up after a couple of years of use. 

Having said that, it is my experience that a good proportion of wood burning appliance also comes from Nordic countries such as Canada, Scandinavian countries, Some really interesting stuff coming out of Russia and Chile. My understanding is even Grampa Lamppa's background is Finnish. After all, it would be surprising to see a decent wood burning unit coming from Africa!

My family used to live in Northern Quebec, we were not too far from the closest Inuit (Eskimo) settlement. Caribou and Moose hunting was the norm. Last snow of the year was in June and the first one was in August. Main mode of transport was Ski-doo. Heating with wood therefore was not necessarily to save money or to enjoy the fire. It was a matter of daily life if not survival. That is why you will see many MFG's come from such countries since this is where many innovations out of necessity come from.


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## jdc (Sep 13, 2011)

Just an FYI, when we ordered our furnace from Yukon on a Tuesday, I had it in hand at the terminal on Thursday morning of the same week. They treated me with respect every time that I called and everything that they said that they would do, they followed up on. During the install, we had some questions and had info/diagrams emailed immediately. A great company to deal with. I wish all of my dealing as a paying customer went as smoothly as they did with Yukon.


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## iowa (Sep 13, 2011)

Is the tax credit still going on or not?


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## Fyrebug (Sep 13, 2011)

iowa said:


> Is the tax credit still going on or not?


 
10% of the value of the unit to a $300 max


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 13, 2011)

iowa said:


> Is the tax credit still going on or not?


 
The Energy Tax Credit is still in force ,however there was a change. The Feds dropped it to 10% up to $300.

...and JDC...that's exactly what we hoped you'd say. We do work hard to give service as we promised.


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## laynes69 (Sep 13, 2011)

Xjunk said:


> How are burn times with with the smaller fire box on the caddy, assuming average conditions? My thought is if you have lower quality wood the burn time would suffer dramitcaly as you cannot add extra to counter the low BTUs.



Sorry Xjunk, I missed your question. When it was 10 below zero, we seen about 6 hours of heat before reloading. Normal burn times are between 8-10 hours on a full load. When its 35 or above at night, I might only burn a 1/2 load which leaves us with coals for a morning fire. The old woodfurnace, no matter what If I wanted a good overnight burn, I needed to fill the 6.5 cu.ft firebox to get that. Even in March-April where its mild, I remember burning a cord with the old unit. The new unit would have been half that or less. I will say with our Caddy, I have never woke to a cold furnace, which we used no propane last year. We are technically over the square footage ratings for our furnace, but it handles things well. As far as wood is concerned, I don't look at the species as much anymore. I'm not picky due to the different burn compared to the old. What I like is the clean burns and even heat.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 14, 2011)

My bud has a Super Jack heating 3500 s/f and gets 10 hrs. with oak at 10 below.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 14, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> My bud has a Super Jack heating 3500 s/f and gets 10 hrs. with oak at 10 below.



Yes but your bud requires a 125,000 BTU with 5.6 cu ft of wood to accomplish this. Laynes69 only needs a 70K BTU AVG unit with a max load of 55 Lbs of wood with a Caddy.


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## lampmfg (Sep 14, 2011)

*What I need to know about BTU ratings?*

A lot of people are mixed up on the BTU's required to heat a home because oil and gas furnaces do no run steady hour after hour. If they did you'd spend $20,000/yr. to heat a home. As it is some people are spending over $4000/yr. to heat their homes. They cycle on and off. Your BTU needs are delivered intermittently. If your home is poorly insulated, or if for some reason you let it cool down, your oil and gas furnace would then run steady. Generally, a furnace rated at 100,000 BTU/hr. runs from 1/4 to 1/3 of an hour on the coldest of MN. days delivering about 30 to 40,000 BTU's/hr. to maintain a comfortable heat level for your home, i.e. 70 degrees F. Most people feel cool in their homes in between the on and off cycles of the oil and gas furnaces, therefore many people prefer wood heat because it's continuous.

Now, heating a home with our VaporFire furnaces is really special because they deliver very even continuous heat hour after hour. They don't smolder the wood and then blast the wood (the two extremes) like other wood furnaces. Instead, its unique automatic draft system avoids these extremes with a continuous front to back burn pattern that allows the user to adjust the burn rate, which in turn varies the BTU output. In mild weather you use a low setting for 15-25,000 BTU's/hr., in moderate weather a medium setting for 25-45,000 BTU's/hr., and in cold weather a high setting for 45-60,000 BTU's / hr. It adjusts simply by turning the knob on the computer from low to high and anywhere in between. Most people never go above the medium setting all winter long.

Keep in mind that all wood has the same # of BTU's pound for pound. The heavier more dense wood (oak, hickory, maple) have more available BTU's/piece than the lighter less dense wood such as poplar and pine, only because each piece weighs more. Every pound of wood that is 100% dry has approximately 8,600 BTU's /pound. Say for instance your home needed 100,000 BTU's/hr. to heat, it would take 11.6 pounds/hr. of 100% dry wood to heat it. Now, if your wood has a 20% moisture content, each pound of wood has only 6,880 BTU's in it (it's 8600 x .80). Then if your wood furnace is only 60% overall efficient, your BTU's would only be 4,128 BTU's/pound (that's 6,880x.60). This would result in a ridiculous amount of wood, 24.2 pounds/hr., to get the needed 100,000 BTU's/hr. In a 24 hr. period that would mean 576 pounds of wood needed for 100,000 BTU's/hr after hr. This would result in probably more than 20 cords of wood to heat your home for one winter. It makes more sense to say that most homes in the coldest of weather only use the 30-40,000 BTU's/hr and probably use 7-10 cords of wood/season to heat their homes. With our VaporFire furnaces that are 85% overall efficient and 99% combustion efficient most people use only 3-5 cords of wood to heat their home/season and that's what makes our furnace very special. To top if off we also have the clean burn of less than 1 gr. emissions/hr.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 14, 2011)

To top it offf...ahemmmmmmm...any furnace I know that has emmisions so cool that to be over 83% becomes condensing.
At least all of the engineers at the testing facilities that are federally approved agree on this point...no disputing this fact. To say 85....please.

to say 60 thousand btu's to heat 3000 s/f keeping it up to 72 degrees with sub zero temps and long 8-10 hr. burn times in a small cubic foot firebox...again something is not adding up.

Your numbers say you'll need full loads 3 times a day in a Kuuma to heat 3K s/f.
I know a 3000 s/f home with a typical heat load in the winter requires 200 gallons of #2 oil or 250-300 gallons of propane depending on the blend to make 30 million btu's which is what that homes needs to keep it to 72-74 degrees for that month and that's burned in a 100,000-112,000 btu output 80% eff. furnace.

While it is true that airtights are creosote makers and that wood does not run on continueity of operation as gas or oil does and does not carry an AFUE rating...burning wood the way we have with the upflow gassier process and the massive heat exchangers & loaded with thermal mass we can cycle burn rates keeping the secondary air over the fire burning the smoke and maintain high eff. with clean burns and do it in a furnace that lasts most guys over 30 years.
We are UL listed for safety and nobody makes a true wood/coal/gas furnace using 1 flue like we do.
Our lightest unit is 600 lbs and the heaviest is 1100 lbs...even our smallest Jack is heavier than any 90,000 btu output furnace on the market. Again thermal mass,ht. exchanger area,draft speeds,gasification is what makes Yukon's shine.


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 14, 2011)

I got curious...went to your site. No manual to see anything...here again we have to take "your word".
Then I got to looking at the Q&A...
Here's a sample..
Does the VaporFire 100 have an automatic damper? 
Yes, a 24 volt computer controls a 24 volt (step) motor for your primary intake air used in combustion.

Earlier you said it gets continuous air...here is says it cycles....what's the truth?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the automatic damper operate by a remote thermostat? 
No, the adjustment is right on the computer itself. You just turn the knob to adjust (mild weather=lower and cold weather=higher). It makes it simple to operate.
What type of a blower system is used to deliver heat? 
It has a two speed blower that is controlled by a remote thermostat. The blower system is activated by the low limit button thermostat that adjusts 90-130 degrees F. for the on temperature. Once it activates, your remote thermostat will determine if it needs high speed (calling for more heat) or low speed (room temp is satisfied.) The high speed is approximately 1500 cfm and the low speed is approximately 500 cfm, depending on the system back pressure. Therefore, the computer setting and the 2 speed blower help you to maintain your desired level of heat.


There's 1 thing I do know about a homes need for moving air. Rule of thumb is 600 cfm's for every 1000 s/f.
That blower on high is only capable of a bit over 2000 s/f depending on what the static pressure is in the ducting.
Even the big box stores discount furnaces carry twin whiney 400 cfm blowers.


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## laynes69 (Sep 14, 2011)

Keith you always say that a furnace needs cycling to make an efficient burn. I'm not sure about the Kuuma, but our Caddy once it's closed down that damper doesn't have to open and close to keep active secondary combustion. With an insulated firebox and baffle and preheated air directed above the fire secondary combustion remains active. So when the damper is closed it's burning clean and long. The volume of air then is minimal to keep a fire. In the mornings I can wake up to a bed of coals, even if the damper has remained open for a couple of hours. Do the jacks keep active secondary combustion when the blower had been off for a period of time, or is the operation of the blower required to keep firebox temperatures up? I seen the inside of a big jack and it's interesting, but there's nothing under the baffle.


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## Fyrebug (Sep 14, 2011)

Hi Keith, I know you & I gets into some debates about products, EPA etc... but it's all in good sportsmanship (I hope). You have a passion for your products and your customers. That is obvious from your comments and your web site and your customer's comments. I have no doubt you have a rock solid product and excellent customer care. Otherwise you would not be here. I wish there were more like you.

As you know, our industry is changing. Shortly EPA will announce new regulations for Biomass Central Heating. This will affect all of us but especially those who are not prepared to make the changes. This should come as no surprise to any of us in the industry. EPA's intention right from the beginning (1988) was to introduce new phases and do away with the 'EPA Exempt' status. This was supposed to have been done in the 90's. EPA being a government outfit obviously dragged their feet. So we the MFG's have no excuse. We've almost had 25 years to see this coming. What this means for MFG who are unwilling to change? You figure it out...

Kuuma to their credit went and designed a new unit and had it certified at a independent lab. Hats off to them, they have great emissions & efficiency numbers. As you likely know, the protocol for these tests are quite stringent and not to be doubted if the MFG can produce the lab results. 

The survival of any wood burning furnace/boiler rest on their ability to adapt and design products for the future. Those who do so will be rewarded with a bigger piece of the pie. Rather than minimizing the results of other MFG or positive customers response to these products I urge you to design for the future. Look at CSA B415.1 and start designing with this in mind. Join Industry Associations to have a voice with EPA. America needs small MFG such as yours.


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## lampmfg (Sep 14, 2011)

*Some Kuuma Insight*

If you were just on our site than I'm sure you saw the test results which are posted as a PDF from Intertek, which should be a good enough word correct? I wasn't able to see your efficiency/emmission ratings when I was on your site? Personally, I don't know much about the all the technical information you guys go back and forth on around here because I'm in a completely different industry and just help out on the side. 

However, I can guarantee my dad (Daryl Lamppa) does and can answer any questions without giving away to much on how the VaporFire achieved these amazing results. Unfortunately he is not gifted with computer skills nor does he care to learn (It's kind of hard to teach an old dog new tricks, and believe me I have tried). 

I'm 31 years old and ever since I can remember he has spent at least 60 hours a week at his shop developing our furnace and sauna product lines. Back in the day he graduated from UMD and was the salutatorian of his class. His siblings are an engineer, college professor, and a pharmacist. He wanted to stay in the small town of Tower close to his parent's who live right done the road. He still does more work around their house (Both in their 80's and have very limited mobility) than I do at mine not to mention his own house on Lake Vermilion. Growing up my sister and I would often make comments (which probably hurt him at the time, but also drove him that much more) about why he has the dirty and least paying job out of his family. He would always say that he was gonna have the last laugh when his revolutionary furnace is completed. After all the years it had taken and being the perfectionist that he is I never thought the day would come, but guess what, it did... Hence the efficiency testing he had completed over the past two years. 

About a month ago I went down in my Grandpa's (He used to do all the bookwork until I took over) basement looking for some information. After some digging I came across hundreds and hundreds of (hand sketches, notes of all the tinkering and testing trying to develop the best wood furnace possible, typewriter made instructions sheets {which from what you said and still see on the website are in need some updating} ) from the beginning of the VaporFire line started back in the 80's until now. This guys seriously has done nothing but this for 30+ years. For 20 of those years it was a 2 person shop and only in the last five has there been at least 5 guys involved. He personally overlooks every furnace and sauna stove before it is completed and sent out. Over the past 2 years we have started to send the furnaces out everywhere and I understand that we have a way to go to catch up with your install bases, and everything else that comes with increased volume but my dad's business plan wanted the product done to the absolute best he could make it before he worried about evolving the company.

Competition is good for everyone and hopefully will only help to grow the wood industry into what it should become (Unlimited Green Energy used by almost everyone). 

I will show him your questions when I see him next and I'm sure he will have some answers but it might be a few days. 

Just saw Fyrebugs last response and it's spot on and much appreciated... I also agree with him about your passion and see that he possesses it as well, which is great to see and can't emphasize enough how much of it my dad possesses. It's just to bad he isn't able to relate it as well as you two do with technology.


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## iowa (Sep 14, 2011)

Yer inbox is full Keith!!


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## iowa (Sep 14, 2011)

I too have a longwood VII. I've had it installed for 2 yrs now. I really like it and I can burn 12hrs no problem. It does use wood though. But it keeps our house a constant 75-76 in the winter. This unit was never used before I bought it. So virtually a new unit built back in the late 70's early 80's. I hate to kick it to the side. But I'd like something a little more efficient to use less wood. 

I really like the Kuuma Vaporfire and have been reading about them for the last yr. If I had the extra $4000 laying around I'd buy one now and install it. 

I can however pay off a furnace in 6months and Yukon has 6 months 0% interest. :msp_thumbup:

Lampe MFing needs to pick up the paces with todays world and get financing. Their furnaces are plenty advanced.. LOL..


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 15, 2011)

Hey Iowa...she's empty now.

Well Fyrebug...you make some good points ...We are sitting at the table with Mr Wood of the mighty EPA....yes we are very involved with what is happening as per the new source performance standard which by all accounts will resemble the Canadian B 415.
It is my hope that it mirrors it so that we can compete evenly and fairly without double standards which has been the case for years.
For example wood/gas furnace are and have been installed and operated safely here in the U.S. for near 4 decades yet CSA will not allow wood/gas to be vented in the same flu even though Underwritters Labs in Canada have tested it to be safe.

Looking back we did not need the EPA to force us to comply with building an efficient furnace...we opted for that decades ago.
Sears recognized that when they contracted us to build Yukon furnaces for them back in the late 70's and early 80's for 8 years.


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## lampmfg (Sep 15, 2011)

*Financing*

I agree with you Iowa about the financing, but it's like pulling teeth getting him to change anything about the way he does business. Give me a few weeks and I'll see what I can do. I see the company that Yukon uses and if I can get him to sign off on that we will have it shortly as well. 

Wish I had more time to dedicate to the business, but I manage the hotel at Fortune Bay Resort Casino and were still in our busy season for another month until "The Wilderness" closes. If anyone's a golfer and hasn't tried it you owe yourself a trip up to the great north on Lake Vermilion for an amazing round, because it's amazing course.


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## iowa (Sep 15, 2011)

Nice talking to you today Keith. Lots of good useful info!


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 16, 2011)

iowa said:


> Nice talking to you today Keith. Lots of good useful info!


 Hey that's what I get paid to do...I owe you a thanks for giving me enough time to walk you through everything.

Besides we want you as apart of the Yukon family and by taking some time which is "cheaper" than spending billions in advertising which would raise our furnace prices...we find it just makes sense to handle customers the "old school" way. 

After awhile it all should click...we build sturdy safe and efficient wood furnaces,we help our customers get the most they can get from their wood and we stand in front of our furnace..not behind looking to duck any tech issues or warranties.

A warranty is nothing without a company to back it no questions asked...even out of warranty we still offer support and discounts for those 30 yr and older furnaces...just makes common sense to keep family members in the fold.


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## lampmfg (Sep 19, 2011)

What is the impact on total wood consumption/yr. if you use a super efficient furnace like our Vapor Fire?

Here are the important numbers that need to be examined: 1 gal. #2 fuel oil = 140,000 BTUs; 1 gal. propane - 91,500 BTU's; 1 cord paper birch wood = 21 M BTU's; 1 cord red oak = 25 M BTU's.

VaporFire furnaces were tested to have an overall efficiency as high as 85%, 99.4% combustion efficiency, less than 1 gr/hr of emissions, 99% smokeless burn cycles, internal flue temperatures 285-400 degrees F., and external flue temperatures 150-250 degrees F. VaporFire furnaces have been used for over 25 years with no condensation issues whatsoever, because the flue temperatures are still high enough to support a natural draft system when installed according to our written directions.

A good estimate for oil usage for a heating season would be 500-1,000 gal., with lots of variables. We'll take a look at an average home using 750 gal. of oil for the heating season. 750 gal = 105 M BTU's. If a wood furnace was 100% overall efficient, which is not possible, it would take : 105 M BTU's /21M=5 cords of birch or 105 BTU's/25M=4.2 cords of oak.

Our VaporFire furnace at 82% average overall efficiency would be; 105 M BTU's/(21Mx82%) = 6.09 cords of birch or 105 M BTU's/(25 M x 82%) = 5.12 cords of oak.

Most manufacturers struggle to hit 60% overall efficiency, but we'll look at their results based on 60%. 105 M BTU's/(21M x 60%) = 8.33 cords of birch or 105 M BTU's/ (25M x 60%) = 7 cords of oak.

Therefore, as you can see, using our efficient VaporFire furnaces will, without a doubt, use less wood to deliver the same amount of BTU's you'd require in oil or propane for the heating season then a less efficient furnace would. The other big advantages are minimal air pollution, longer more even burns, and minimal creosote accumulation from 99% smokeless burn cycles. The safely aspect is also huge in saving homes and lives.

I'm quite sure alot of manufacturers will be very surprised to see their furnace test results when regulations come into effect in 2013-14. They're not going to believe how much air pollution and wasted wood their so called efficient furnaces have produced. Many manufacturers will have to fold or redesign their furnaces quickly. I'm thankful that I invested the time, effort and money in preliminary testing so that our company is prepared for the future. We knew the regulations were forthcoming.


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