# Torque Disparity Kohler vs. Briggs



## stumper63

I am going to re-power my 03 252 and wanted to upgrade the hp at the same time. I was looking at the specs for the Kohler Command Pro 36hp vs. the Briggs Vanguard 35hp. The torque for the Vanguard is 53 ft. lbs., while the torque for the Kohler is 63 ft. lbs. Nearly same rpm for max torque values. Does anyone know how Kohler can get 10 more ft. lbs of torque at virtually the same horsepower?
Also, does anyone have experience with either of these size hp engines as far as reliability/issues? I'm totally happy with the 25hp Kohler, no problems in 2800 hours, but I don't think Kohler has had these larger v-twins but for a couple years or so. Any reports on the 35hp Vanguard's? Seems Vermeer, Bandit, Carlton, Rayco, all use them on their machines. Does that say anything about the Kohler?
More torque is good, but don't want to have reliability issues. Anythings is an upgrade from the 39 ft. lbs. of the 25hp.

Thanks,
Stumper63


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## TreeBot

I just put the 35hp Vanguard on my chipper, I have heard very good things as far as reliability, we will see. I looked at the Kohler too but it was a more than $500 upgrade.

I would love to put a 35hp on my 252, I just wonder if the machine can handle it. I don't know how many more stumps my original motor has, and the price for a replacement 25hp Kohler was about $1800! The Vanguard I got new complete for $2k.


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## gink595

My experience with Kohlers has been good, but they are expensive to repair. I'm not familiar with the new lineups you are talking about, what are the bore and strokes of these motors? That will come to play with the different torque rating @ RPM, as well as cam profiles and ignition timing.


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## stumper63

Treebot,

Plyscamp has a 35hp Vanguard on his 252, says it handles it just fine. I think he increased the jackshaft to 1.5", to match the cutter wheel shaft, but not sure. He also has a 252 with a diesel, but had to make more mods to handle the torque.
Stumper63


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## stumper63

Gink,

Kohler Bore is 90mm x stroke of 78.5. Briggs bore is 85.5 x stroke of 86.5.
So does larger bore and shorter stroke result in more torque?

Thanks,
Stumper63


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## 441_Stihl

yes


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## Jonsered2095

stumper63 said:


> I am going to re-power my 03 252 and wanted to upgrade the hp at the same time. I was looking at the specs for the Kohler Command Pro 36hp vs. the Briggs Vanguard 35hp. The torque for the Vanguard is 53 ft. lbs., while the torque for the Kohler is 63 ft. lbs. Nearly same rpm for max torque values. Does anyone know how Kohler can get 10 more ft. lbs of torque at virtually the same horsepower?
> Also, does anyone have experience with either of these size hp engines as far as reliability/issues? I'm totally happy with the 25hp Kohler, no problems in 2800 hours, but I don't think Kohler has had these larger v-twins but for a couple years or so. Any reports on the 35hp Vanguard's? Seems Vermeer, Bandit, Carlton, Rayco, all use them on their machines. Does that say anything about the Kohler?
> More torque is good, but don't want to have reliability issues. Anythings is an upgrade from the 39 ft. lbs. of the 25hp.
> 
> Thanks,
> Stumper63



Spec.s I read were:

Kohler 60 lb-ft @ 2400 RPM [oversquare]
B&S 52.2 lb-ft @ 2200 RPM [square]

200 RPM difference. Is the Kohler a peaky engine? It may stumble more...



stumper63 said:


> Gink,
> 
> Kohler Bore is 90mm x stroke of 78.5. Briggs bore is 85.5 x stroke of 86.5.
> So does larger bore and shorter stroke result in more torque?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stumper63




Where?

Knowing its max. Torque alone is irrelevant - you want to know the relationship between Torque & Power ie. where Torque lays in relation to Power @ X[&Y] RPM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_ratio


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## joecool85

stumper63 said:


> Gink,
> 
> Kohler Bore is 90mm x stroke of 78.5. Briggs bore is 85.5 x stroke of 86.5.
> So does larger bore and shorter stroke result in more torque?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stumper63



Typically a longer stroke with small bore gives more torque at lower rpms, larger bore with short stroke gives more hp at higher rpms. It could be the cam has a different grind making it have high peak torque, but not necessarily good low end torque which is good if the engine starts to bog down ever.

I'd go with the Briggs personally.


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## stumper63

Note Jonsered's torque specs in an earlier post. Close to same torque peak, 2200 vs. 2400 rpm for the Kohler. Is 200 rpm difference in torque peak a big deal in this size engine?
It just seems that a 17 percent increase in torque from the Kohler over the Vanguard would be worth a few hundred bucks, as long as reliability isn't an issue. If I can go from 39 to 52 ft. lbs that's good, but why not go up to 60-62 (depends on which site you look at) for close to same money?


Like I said, my Kohler experience has been trouble-free with the 03 252 25 hp engine. That said, the larger v-twins are newer for Kohler, but would think they know how to build engines by now, but.......

Any other experiences with this size or similar Kohler engines?

Thanks for the comments,

Stumper63


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## gink595

I would say that a motor with a longer stroke than bore would give more torque when needed, The kohlers over square motor would make me think that it is developing it's torque at a higher RPM, if they are the same displacement.


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## gink595

Jonsered2095 said:


> Spec.s I read were:
> 
> Kohler 60 lb-ft @ 2400 RPM [oversquare]
> B&S 52.2 lb-ft @ 2200 RPM [square]
> 
> 200 RPM difference. Is the Kohler a peaky engine? It may stumble more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where?
> 
> *Knowing its max. Torque alone is irrelevant - you want to know the relationship between Torque & Power ie. where Torque lays in relation to Power @ X[&Y] RPM.*
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_ratio





I agree, I see this HP rating stuff in motorcycles and it is highly misleading. Peak power ratings has very little to do with real world performance. Knowing where the working range power is most important rather than peak power outputs.


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## pdqdl

I have been mad at Kohler ever since they made the Command engines and I had one on a mower. It kept developing oil leaks under the flywheel !

It seems that this 25hp twin has NO bearing on the flywheel side of the engine. Both the vertical thrust and side-thrust forces on the crankshaft are handled by a special machined surface on the aluminum block. *It is NON-REPAIRABLE *!! If the machine you have the engine mounted on ends up applying more side force to the crankshaft than it likes, excessive wear occurs (just a couple of hours is enough) and the engine blows oil out from under the flywheel. The output shaft is supported by a roller bearing and seal, but the flywheel side of the crankshaft is built cheap and unrepairable.

When you attempt to get a warranty claim honored by Kohler, you will be told that there is no warranty repair due because the belt on the engine was "too tight: operator induced failure". [After the first engine failure, we made SURE that the belt was not too tight.]

I'll never buy another one if I can help it, and I check ALL engines I buy now to see if they have repairable bearings on the flywheel side of the engine. This cost me many thousands of dollars, several short block & engine replacements, countless hours of downtime, and ended up causing the death of the mower that was designed around that engine.

Conversely, I do have a couple of Kohlers that have done OK for me; I'll just never buy any more unless I have to.


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## stumper63

Hey Gink,

I'm not talking about peak horsepower ratings, I'm asking about the peak torque ratings. I'm aware that torque is more desirable than hp in a stump grinder application. That's why my original question about the higher torque in a similar sized and rated engine. I appreciate now the reason is the bore and stroke differences.

As noted earlier the Kohler 36hp (999 cc displacment) reaches its maximum torque at 2400 rpm, the Briggs 35hp (993 cc displacement) at 2200 rpm. The max rpm on both of these engines is about 3600 rpm and that's where the max horsepower is developed, so the max torque is being reached at about 2/3 max rpm for each of them. So is that enough information to know where the "torque lays in relation to power"? Let us know.

I sympathize with pdqdl about his Kohler 25 problems. Like I said, my experience with my 25hp Kohler has been trouble-free for 2800 hours. So the engine's reliability may have everything to do with its application. So on my Vermeer 252 I guess the application works fine.

It is interesting to find out about the crank only having a bearing on the output shaft side. I'll see what I can find out about these larger Briggs and Kohler engines. It seems like a bearing on each side is a no-brainer, but I'm no engine desinger, just a user.

Thanks for the help.
Stumper63


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## gink595

stumper63 said:


> As noted earlier the Kohler 36hp (999 cc displacment) reaches its maximum torque at 2400 rpm, the Briggs 35hp (993 cc displacement) at 2200 rpm. The max rpm on both of these engines is about 3600 rpm and that's where the max horsepower is developed, so the max torque is being reached at about 2/3 max rpm for each of them. So is that enough information to know where the "torque lays in relation to power"? Let us know.
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> Stumper63



What RPM are you going to run this motor at? That would be the question you need to know, what is the torque rating at your operating RPM? Say if your running this motor at 3400 RPM's and the torque curve falls 20ft. lbs. compared to where the 2400 peak is, I'd try and compare and see what the torque rating is at say 3600, because if it falls flat on it's face at your machines required operating speed it would be a bummer!!! Maybe call the manufacturer and see if you can get access to the dyno charts and compare where the power is, thats what I was trying to get at with the peak HP ratings they are kinda misleading.


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## stumper63

Gink,

Stump grinders are run at full throttle. They slow up during the actual sweep through the stump, probably to about 2400 rpm, I've no tach tho to confirm. The torque curve is similar on each of these, you can check online if you want. You get the feel for where the machine's effective work rpm is after awhile, it's way below full throttle.
So in comparing these two engines it seems they are on a basically level playing field, except the Kohler should do a better job with more torque available due to engine design.

Thanks for the info.
Stumper63


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## gink595

stumper63 said:


> Gink,
> 
> Stump grinders are run at full throttle. They slow up during the actual sweep through the stump, probably to about 2400 rpm, I've no tach tho to confirm. The torque curve is similar on each of these, you can check online if you want. You get the feel for where the machine's effective work rpm is after awhile, it's way below full throttle.
> So in comparing these two engines it seems they are on a basically level playing field, except the Kohler should do a better job with more torque available due to engine design.
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> Stumper63



Yeah, I agree. Those small motors are designed to run at full throttle. So which one are you thinking about going with?


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## stumper63

Leaning towards the Kohler, but will wait a little to hear more about reliability and try to find out about the bearing thing. The little 25hp is still going strong and it's my busy time, so may wait a bit for that too. But I do look forward to having a bit more grunt and speeding up things a bit. But if hshe blows up I'll be doint something quicker.
Thanks


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## redprospector

Going from a 25 hp to a 35 or 36 hp motor is going to be such a jump in power that I doubt that the torque question will even be in the equasion.
If you can beef the machine up enough to handle it, you'll be smiling with either enging.
As far as reliability, I can't say on the Kohler. I put a 35 horse Brigg's on my chomper firewood processor last winter. It's got a little over 200 hours on it right now with absolutely no problems. It replaced an 18 horse Honda, and I love it. That motor never even grunts.
I got mine from Small Engine Warehouse for just under $1800.00 delivered. You might want to check them out, a couple hundred buck's might help you decide. 

Andy


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## cuttinscott

Go with the Briggs Big Block, Daihatsu (toyota) actually builds it for Briggs, It is far superior to anything out of the kohler camp. We have sold alot of these and they ear kohlers for lunch. Not to mention durability the friggin kohlers are a electrical nightmare with their magnets falling out of their flywheels and taking out stators, Their head gasket issues, etc. etc. I love going to kohler update schools and learning how they bandaided all the issues of the prior year every year lol. Hell the 25 hp command was junk when it came out and still is today.


Just my .02


Scott


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## stumper63

Thanks redprospector.

Cuttinscott,

Thanks for the input. In what way do they "eat Kohler's for lunch"? Is that in terms of reliability or performance? The torque difference (17% more on the Kohler) isn't noticeable to a user? What is the "Kohler school" saying about their larger v-twins like the 36hp? Are they having specific problems?

I guess I don't understand why you say the Command 25hp engines are junk. I've got 2800 hours on my 2003 without any problems, just changed plugs and filters, that's it. Still doesn't smoke or use oil. Heck, when I upgrade I'm hoping to get a few bucks for it. Some kid would probably love to have it on his go-kart. Would you say mine is an anomaly? Seems pretty reliable to me, or are the Vanguards getting alot more hours than that as a rule?

Thanks for the comments, all helpful in the decision-making process.

Stumper63


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## cuttinscott

stumper63 said:


> Thanks redprospector.
> 
> Cuttinscott,
> 
> Thanks for the input. In what way do they "eat Kohler's for lunch"? Is that in terms of reliability or performance? The torque difference (17% more on the Kohler) isn't noticeable to a user?
> 
> 
> What is the "Kohler school" saying about their larger v-twins like the 36hp? Are they having specific problems?
> 
> I guess I don't understand why you say the Command 25hp engines are junk. I've got 2800 hours on my 2003 without any problems, just changed plugs and filters, that's it. Still doesn't smoke or use oil. Heck, when I upgrade I'm hoping to get a few bucks for it. Some kid would probably love to have it on his go-kart. Would you say mine is an anomaly? Seems pretty reliable to me, or are the Vanguards getting alot more hours than that as a rule?
> 
> Thanks for the comments, all helpful in the decision-making process.
> 
> Stumper63



Kohler uses a different dino than the rest of the world IMO

Schools, Kohler never admit problems just more cures 

From the commercial market That I deal with the Kohlers do not last long they will self destruct with heat and dust. Ohh Did I forget to mention that and warranty issues are always the customers fault They will always find a issue of neglect.

We also deal alot with the 3 cyl liquid cooled gas and diesels from B&S and they out live and kubota in the 3cyl super mini series (D600, D722)

Briggs really has a great engine with the Diahatsu - Big Block, 2LC and 3LC engines

PS, Kohler now has a mfg plant in china

Scott


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## joecool85

Looks like I was right, B&S is the way to go. I'd trust Scott on this, he knows his stuff.


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## procutter

Skip the kohler and go with briggs. Scott is right vanguard engines are owned by toyota.Had a 31hp on a scag 61in turf tiger 10.5 mph wet grass would not phase it that engine rates at 48 lbs torque. When I traded it in it had 1900 hrs on it and used no oil at all. But I did service it at every 40hrs. Ive seen a tiger cub 61in 23hp vanguard out mow a tiger with a 27hp kohler. And I know im talking mowers here but from my experince vangaurd all the way.You can also check out lawn site. forums on the mowing equipment page check the search engine out on the vanguards all positive replys. Hope this helps.


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## mini14

the vanguard on my leaf loader is now 10yrs old still runs like new, i have heard nothing put great things about the newer ones, ive asked all my local dealers they all say they would get a vanguard on a mower if it came equiped with it. i know scags had/have them and the 31hpvanguard is the standerd motor on the large ferris zturns. P.S. all the dealers love kohlers cauz they are allways in for repair.


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## John D

Vanguards are great engines,Ive got 3 of the v twins,2 16hps,one 18hp,they run like new with over 1300 hrs on them,zero oil usage.I'd go with the 35 Briggs.


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## Plyscamp

I installed a 35 HP B/S V Twin on a 252 about 1 year ago. Believe me you will not need more torque on a 252. So far it has been bullet proof (about 400 hours). All of the belts, shafts and clutch are the stock Vermeer pieces and are working fine. You will use a few more belts and clutches than a Kohler unit, but the added production will more than pay for the additional items.

It is at lest twice as productive as a 25 HP Kohler especially when grinding at maximum depth. This unit also has the Multi Tip cutting system which is about 1/3 faster than PRO Teeth.


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## stumper63

So it's been two years since this thread was started and now I'm going to make the engine swap this winter.

Anyone have any more experience with either the 35hp Vanguard or 34-40hp Kohler Command Pro engines as far as reliability goes?

Anyone actually done the conversion on a 252 with either the Vanguard or Kohler? I know Plyscamp did it about three years ago. Gordy, if you see this, how's it holding up? Any tips regarding installation? Seems like I'll have to modify the mounting plate for either engine since both are "big blocks" and the specs show the engine bases about 1-1/2" bigger in each direction. Everything else seems like a direct bolt-up.

Thanks for any input.

Stumper63


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## mini14

add 2 more trouble free years to my b&s vanguard....only heard good news about the 31 briggs and as allways no matter what brand its going to cost u for repairs....ive never owned a kohler, but ive got many briggs engines on my equipment, got a 30 year old 5hp briggs on a thatcher and have another 1 sitting on a shelf for a replacement, pulled a 25 year old briggs off my log splitter(motor was still running but couldn't stand the burning oil smell anymore)....https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?keyword=NEGH&catname=engines&PAGELEN=20&PageNo=2

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/ProductList.asp?HP=33&Category=Engine


My friend is on his second kohler motor, 25hp........first one windowed the block


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## Plyscamp

About 700 hours on the 35 HP Briggs on the 252. Absolutely no nproblems with the engine. We have used up 2 of the 1.25" jack shafts and for that reason we are converting to the 1.5" jackshaft assy.(like I use on the diesel) tomorrow. It also makes all of the bearings standard so if we break one, I only have to carry one bearing for back up one the trucks. Still using the standard Vermeer belt and pulleys on the wheel side and it is working ok. Next project might be a 3 Cylinder Lombardini on my old 252 (4,300 hours) can you imagine 35 HP with 90 Ft. Lbs. of torque on a 252. This one will be a challenge as the engine will be mounted length wise. Keep use informed on what you do with your unit

Plyscamp


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## stumper63

Gordy,

Are you going to add a third bearing too like you did on the diesel, or just upsize to 1.5" jackshaft/bearings? Can you send pic's when you get it finished?

Are you still using stock jackshaft belts/pulleys? 

Awhile ago you talked about purchasing a diesel grinder from England or somewhere, did you end up getting that?

Stumper63


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## Plyscamp

Made the Jackshaft conversion on the 252 today. Still using the standard 2 bearing set up just upsized the shaft and bearings. Interestingly while at the bearing house to buy pulleys, I got one of the older counter guys that had his act together. He was able to find me new 1.5" center bushings to use with the stock Vermeer pulleys on both ends of the shaft, so it only cost me $20.00 plus the shaft to make the conversion. No pulley changes were required.

After six months of negotiations and proding trying to get the Pedator 28 crated, Invoiced and shipped from England I gave up. I may try again in the Spring with a different seller, but they sure move slow. I now understand why it took so long to close that hole in the floor of the Gulf.


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## derwoodii

stumper63 said:


> I'm totally happy with the 25hp Kohler, no problems in 2800 hours, but I don't think Kohler has had these larger v-twins but for a couple years or so. .Thanks, Stumper63



Wow 2800 hours well done. I got a mate who re powered his stumpie twice as both Ch25s died before 1000 hours. He says due to hash work dust n vibe etc. My Ch25 on ma 65 bandit chipper died at 1500hours worn out the right hand cylinder bore which it par for the course with these.


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## TimberMcPherson

I just had a kohler 30hp on my chipper break its crank and grenade its shortblock with 227 hours on it. It should still be under warrenty, but they are trying to crawl there way out of it. Its not even 2 years old.

Saying that I have a 27hp kohler on my 16 year old chipper that has done well over 2200 hours (hour meter died years ago) and it still runs fine.


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## derwoodii

TimberMcPherson said:


> I just had a kohler 30hp on my chipper break its crank and grenade its shortblock with 227 hours on it. It should still be under warrenty, but they are trying to crawl there way out of it. Its not even 2 years old.
> 
> Saying that I have a 27hp kohler on my 16 year old chipper that has done well over 2200 hours (hour meter died years ago) and it still runs fine.



A tough but joyful week for ya Timber with ya new baby girl but a broken chipper. Still that chippers small beer for what you gone though to get Briar. Has she still got that new baby smell, wonderful ain't it.


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## stumper63

Gordy,

Does your machinist want to make another shaft for me? How much did it cost ya? I bet there may be a few more of us on this site that would be interested.

Was there plenty of room to mount the 1.5" bearings? If I remember right the bearing housings are about 1/2" longer than the 1.25" bearings.

I've got a friend up here who is a machinist, last I talked to him it sounded like about $125 or so.

Do you have the brand and part # of those bushings? Maybe McGuire bearing can get me some up here.

Stumper63


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## Plyscamp

Stumper 63

The shaft was a left over from my old 252 prior to putting the diesel on it, so I did not have to get one made. $125.00 sounds about right on the shaft make sure they use 4130 steel.

The 1.5" beearings are a little longer and reduce the range of adjustment slightly, but not enough to be a problem.

The bushing for the engine side is a Dodge brand part # 121147. The bushing for the wheel side I had left over from the Kohler to Diesel conversion and I am not sure of that part #. Take the pulley with you on the wheel side and they should be able to match a bushing with no problem.

Gordy


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## NCgrinder

Plyscamp: What clutch are you you using on the 35Briggs/252 conversion
Make/model number ?


Stan


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## stumper63

NCgrinder:

Last i heard from Gordy he was using factory 252 clutch, hadn't been able to find a larger one that would fit. I was curious if the clutch from a 352 with the 35hp Briggs 3 cyl might fit. I'm sure it would handle the load better. My manual says the 252 clutch is 220 ft/lbs. Maybe someone here with the 352 can look in their parts manual and see what the specs are on the 352 clutch? Maybe next time at Vermeer the parts guy can pull the two out and see how similar they are.

Stumper63


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## Plyscamp

NCgrinder

We use the standard 252 clutch and its holding up pretty well. Adding some holes to the clutch cover helps. Heat is not a good thing on the Agura Clutches, so the more air flow you can create over the clutch the better. I have not looked at the 352 clutch next to the 252 clutch but my Son has and tells me there not interchangeable. Again I have not made the comparisson.

Gordy


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## NCgrinder

Stumper63: Thanks for the info
Plyscamp: So the stock 252 clutch fits right onto the 35 Briggs?
Who makes the clutch that Vermeer uses on the 252 ? any chance of finding out the model # ?
Whats a ballpark price on a stock 252 clutch from Vermeer ?

I have approx. 2000 hrs on my 252/25 Kohler and the clutch seems to hold fine ...I will install a new clutch when I repower,though....I'm always careful to bring throttle back to idle before engaging clutch


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## Plyscamp

As long as you buy the correct crankshat on the B/S 1 7/16" Dia. it will fit right up. Check the thread 252 upgrades for a model #.

The 252 Clutch is made by Agura in Japan. There is no aftermarket as they only sell to OEM accounts and they do not provide replacement parts to the OEM's or anybody else. Seems to me as the clutches are about 225.00 from Vermeer. Anybody bought one recently with updated prices?


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## GroundZero

Plyscamp said:


> As long as you buy the correct crankshat on the B/S 1 7/16" Dia. it will fit right up. Check the thread 252 upgrades for a model #.
> 
> The 252 Clutch is made by Agura in Japan. There is no aftermarket as they only sell to OEM accounts and they do not provide replacement parts to the OEM's or anybody else. Seems to me as the clutches are about 225.00 from Vermeer. Anybody bought one recently with updated prices?


Bought a 252 clutch yesterday. $334 plus tax I also bought a new vermeer cutter wheel. $303 plus tax 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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