# Yet Another Figure 8 question



## WolfpactVI (Mar 20, 2013)

Hello,

First time posting in the climbing section, though I've been lurking around AS for a few years. I climb DRT, using a blake's hitch on either the end of my rope or on a split tail (thinking about switching over to an eye-to-eye french prusik, but that's a different subject). I've been reading up on the benefits of using a figure 8 for decent to save wear and tear on split tails and the climbing rope. What I have NOT been able to figure out is if it's possible to use a figure 8 for decent using DRT. And if possible, how exactly to do it.

Also, I keep reading about using a friction hitch as a back-up for the figure 8. While I understand this in principle (let go of the figure 8 and you're going to drop - let go of a friction hitch and you'll stop), doesnt this defeat the purpose of saving wear on the split tail if you're using it right above a figure 8?

Help me sort all of this out. Thanks!


- J


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## climb4fun (Mar 20, 2013)

you can use a fig 8 for drt no problem. just make sure its a full sized fig 8 and not a micro 8. you run the ropes through the 8 the same drt as you would on a single line, they just go side by side. as far as using a friction hitch to back it up... why bother? if you need to be able to stop mid line and lock in, just get a rescue 8 and learn to set a good lock loop (or get a pirona). as always when trying new gear, start low and slow. oh and another thing, using an 8 creates quite a bit more heat than a split tail or eye to eye tail. repelling fast is fun but its easier to burn up your lines with an 8 if you'r in a hurry. be safe out there bud.


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## Zale (Mar 20, 2013)

Yes, you can descend on DRT using a figure 8. It just clips into your saddle and runs through where you're friction hitch would run on the rope. You'll need to look up exact configuration but its easy.

Unless you plan on burning out of a tree, if you descend in a controlled manner the wear on your hitch is negligible. I found by the time I untied and set up the figure 8 with a back up, I could usually be on the ground already.


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## Iustinian (Mar 20, 2013)

Zale said:


> Yes, you can descend on DRT using a figure 8. It just clips into your saddle and runs through where you're friction hitch would run on the rope. You'll need to look up exact configuration but its easy.
> 
> Unless you plan on burning out of a tree, if you descend in a controlled manner the wear on your hitch is negligible. I found by the time I untied and set up the figure 8 with a back up, I could usually be on the ground already.



I agree completely. I do enjoy burning out of a tree sometimes though, so I switch up. A gri gri is especially fun if you really want to sail out of a tree -- I do that once in a while for fun. 

Even if you're buying your eye 2 eyes instead of splicing up your own, they're only $30, and I replace mine often so it really doesn't matter that much to me. 

It sure looks cool having all that extra gear on your belt though hahahahaha.


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## hero323 (Mar 20, 2013)

*havent tried think it would work though*

just a thought i think with a bit of cordage or webbing you could installl the 8 above your hitch attach it to your tie in loosen your blakes a bit then on decent tend your blakes with one hand rappel with your other hand if you need to stop simply let go of your blakes... i think this would reduce wear on the split tail and allow a pretty fast decent out of the tree... anyone see why this wouldn't work?


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 20, 2013)

using a figure 8 on drt, the 8 is gonna be slow, maybe even to the point of having to push slack into the figure 8. Only time i would use a figure 8 to rappel out of the tree would be if i coming down srt.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 20, 2013)

hero323 said:


> just a thought i think with a bit of cordage or webbing you could installl the 8 above your hitch attach it to your tie in loosen your blakes a bit then on decent tend your blakes with one hand rappel with your other hand if you need to stop simply let go of your blakes... i think this would reduce wear on the split tail and allow a pretty fast decent out of the tree... anyone see why this wouldn't work?



If you want a safety while decending on a figure 8, use a hip prusik.


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## hero323 (Mar 20, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> If you want a safety while decending on a figure 8, use a hip prusik.



that works to but i think keeping your blakes in place works to without transfering to a hip prusik


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 20, 2013)

hero323 said:


> that works to but i think keeping your blakes in place works to without transfering to a hip prusik



Unless you run a super long tail, i dont beleive you will have the room for a 8 under your blakes. Plus I would think that you could be on the ground before you could rig your figure 8 unless your up a 200' tree.


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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2013)

Del_ said:


> That's why I biner my 8 into a leg strap. It's got to be lower than the hitch.



Doing so doesn't pull you off center?


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 20, 2013)

I always carry my big fat rescue 8 on my saddle, if I'm done with the trim I can bomb on down, always have the option of locking off on the ears if I missed a cut on the way down. Mine's big enough to come down the bullrope if we're dropping the pole.


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

Thanks for all of the replies! From what I've gathered, the figure 8 goes on the running side of the climbing rope, the same side the hitch grabs, and simply takes the place of the hitch functionally. Makes sense to me. The 8 has to go below the hitch or replace the hitch. Some of you are saying just untie the hitch, some are saying the 8 takes all of the load so the hitch will loosen up enough to not get any wear from friction.

There seems to be some suggestions about running both ends of the climbing rope through the 8 (which I've seen pictures of), but I dont think that will work for my setup. Let's say my rope goes from the ground up over a limb from the right hand, then down to a carabiner on my saddle bridge on the left hand. When I'm close up under that limb, the left side of my rope is pretty short. If U understand correctly, in order to run both ends of the rope through the 8, both ends would have to reach all the way to the ground. That sound right?

I think I am going to get one and try it out, for fun if nothing else. Any suggestions on plain, one with ears on both sides, one with ears on only one side?


- J


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

Del_ said:


> I have a small deaf 8 I biner into my left leg strap and it runs below my climbing hitch. It's great for a rapid descent as all you do is grip the rope below the 8 with one hand and push down on the top of the climbing hitch with the other. The hitch loosens up and the 8 takes the whole load.
> 
> I also use this configuration as a backup to my lanyard when chunking down a spar srt with my climbing rope at waist level with a running bowline around the spar. I leave about eight feet of tail out of the bowline so I can srt down to my next cutting position and then pull my climbing rope back down to me with the eight foot tail. Some climbers use a second short piece of rope for the pull down line which is a good idea.



I cant quite picture the 8 in the leg strap, or figure out how you retrieve your rope after SRT down the bowline tail. Can you attach an 8 to any saddle's leg strap or only certain ones? Do you have any pictures or videos of either?


- J


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## Pelorus (Mar 21, 2013)

Ears help to prevent accidental unwanted girth hitching, and two ears are better than one, imo,


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 21, 2013)

Correct. Get a larger 8, I like the rescue 8 with ears. Just untie your hitch and run the tail to the ground. Run both legs through the 8, and come on down. There's no need for a hitch. Def saves wear on the rope. And the ride is a nice reward at the end of a climb.


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## beastmaster (Mar 21, 2013)

Using an 8 drt is going to be slow, might as well just use your hitch. I have never backed up my 8. Seems like that defeets the whole reason of using an 8. I carrie one on my belt always for emergencies. a ground person could lower you from the ground if you were incapacitated or a fellow climber. Nothing is funner then using an 8, after putting a tipping line on a tall limbed pine and trying to make it down in two or three jumps, or upside down. yeah huh


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> Using an 8 drt is going to be slow, might as well just use your hitch. I have never backed up my 8. Seems like that defeets the whole reason of using an 8. I carrie one on my belt always for emergencies. a ground person could lower you from the ground if you were incapacitated or a fellow climber. Nothing is funner then using an 8, after putting a tipping line on a tall limbed pine and trying to make it down in two or three jumps, or upside down. yeah huh



Does sound like fun!


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

Del_ said:


> Can't picture an 8 on a biner clipped into a leg strap?
> 
> 
> Read my post again. I didn't say I srt down the bowline tail. In fact, if you srt down the bowline tail, you fall.
> ...




Sorry about that. I started phrasing things one way, then switched. What I meant was, is it ok to clip an 8 to the leg strap of ANY saddle, or just certain ones? I just have the basic weaver cougar saddle. Dont want to be hanging from some part of it I'm not suppose to.

Regarding the SRT on the chunk down, I see you werent referring to the bowline tail. Forgive my ignorance - you posted a description of a technique you use, and I merely want to have a correct picture and accurate understanding of it. I dont like to have half-formed or incorrect pictures of things stored away. Would you mind providing a little more detail about where your climbing rope goes and how you retrieve it? Just not enough in your post for me to figure it out. And I doubt I will ever use it - but like I said, I dont like having incorrect understandings of techniques tucked away in my head.

Thanks!


- J


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Correct. Get a larger 8, I like the rescue 8 with ears. Just untie your hitch and run the tail to the ground. Run both legs through the 8, and come on down. There's no need for a hitch. Def saves wear on the rope.  And the ride is a nice reward at the end of a climb.



I dont quite understand why I should run both legs through the 8. Wouldnt the leg of my climbing rope tied to a carabiner on my bridge not be moving at all relative to the 8 clipped to another carabiner on my bridge? Could you take a picture next time you've got your 8 set up like this? Thanks!


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## Guran (Mar 21, 2013)

*No there yet, but........*



beastmaster said:


> I have never backed up my 8. Seems like that defeets the whole reason of using an 8.



Well, when I'm as professional as you beast, maybe I'll stop using a back up prusik. :biggrin:
But until then I'll add a 6mm prusik on the climbing rope and clip in to the bridge. Just to be on the safe side if something should happen.....


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 21, 2013)

WolfpactVI said:


> I dont quite understand why I should run both legs through the 8. Wouldnt the leg of my climbing rope tied to a carabiner on my bridge not be moving at all relative to the 8 clipped to another carabiner on my bridge? Could you take a picture next time you've got your 8 set up like this? Thanks!



I run both legs through to save wear on the rope if it's in a natural crotch.


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I run both legs through to save wear on the rope if it's in a natural crotch.



Thanks! So I assume you untie the one end of the rope from your saddle and pull enough over the crotch so that end reaches the ground?


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 21, 2013)

So Wesspur has a "bent ear figure eight" and "mini eight". Any recommendations for one or t'other?


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 21, 2013)

WolfpactVI said:


> So Wesspur has a "bent ear figure eight" and "mini eight". Any recommendations for one or t'other?



Thatbent ear 8 is what I use. It's big enough for your doubled climbline or a 3/4 inch bullrope if your combing down a spar. And yes, run both legs to the ground. I like to tie a bowline or clip a carabiner around the leg already on the ground so that as I lower the other side they will both follow the same path to the ground.


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## PassionForTrees (Mar 21, 2013)

Earlier in my climbing days I used a figure eight, it is great to have so many tools in the toolbox and have the experience in using them all. Over time I have found that my figure eight doesnt get used anymore. Most of the time the only reason would be to come down, and if we are coming down with an eight it would be fast and fun. Now adays we are not flying down anymore it's just wrecking your gear. take is steady and safe youll get down. There were times when we set a line to come down then pull the butt over, that was a common reason for the eight, now I tie the rope to fell the but, but my last cut I have used a landyard and my climbing line in a ring and ring crotch saver so Im already comfortable as can be and safe as can be, then Im not rappelling off the same rope we are pulling trees and rigging with. Youll play around a bit with the hitches you will choose to use, after you find yours, I bet money youll just come down on your hitch and skip the eight all together, but it is a good practice to keep it fresh when doing rescues.. Climb safe brother!


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## beastmaster (Mar 22, 2013)

Guran said:


> Well, when I'm as professional as you beast, maybe I'll stop using a back up prusik. :biggrin:
> But until then I'll add a 6mm prusik on the climbing rope and clip in to the bridge. Just to be on the safe side if something should happen.....



Professional or foolish? I don't want no one to do anything their not comfortable with. Iv seen two bad accidents in my life related to figure 8's that would of been prevented if it had been backed up with a prussic. 30 years ago or so I made my first 8 plate in my garage, we did a lot of unsafe things back then. Practice Safety always.(Still it is an e ticket ride falling out of a 90 foot tree on an 8, and stopping just before you crash.)


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## imagineero (Mar 22, 2013)

I don't think an 8 is all that useful of a tool. I come from a background of many roped disciplines (rock climbing, caving, industrial access, caving, canyoning) and got started when I was a young teen. The 8 was the only thing I could afford, and it has a bunch of uses sure. You can rig them backwards for extra friction. But it's big, bulky and heavy, and it twists your rope. Locking it off is a pain.

For a simple descent tool, It's hard to go past a sticht plate/ATC/pigs nose etc. They weigh nothing, you can use them to descend single or double rope, they're cheap, and the ride is nice. 

A gri gri is not a bad tool either, and you can use it for a bunch of purposes. You can setup a z link ascending system with one, use it for rescue lower off, use it to descend (it locks), and you can even use it for light in tree rigging, or as a secondary rigging point with a floating rig.

There are a bunch of specialised tools out there... racks, whales tails, 8's, gri gris, sticht plates, etc etc... I own most of them, but I just use a hitch cord. Who needs to carry all that stuff? 

Shaun


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 22, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> Professional or foolish? I don't want no one to do anything their not comfortable with. Iv seen two bad accidents in my life related to figure 8's that would of been prevented if it had been backed up with a prussic. 30 years ago or so I made my first 8 plate in my garage, we did a lot of unsafe things back then. Practice Safety always.(Still it is an e ticket ride falling out of a 90 foot tree on an 8, and stopping just before you crash.)



I was retaking a rope rescue class as a refresher a couple years ago for the fire company. I had already taken the class years before but they switched instructors. This instructor hated rappel racks and did t want to teach there use even though it was on the class itenorary. I found out this instructor loaded his wrong and fell 3 story's to the concrete. Luckily he had gloves on and was able to slow him self down before he hit so he didnt get hurt. What happen is he was arguing with another instructor about what the proper way to exit a window was and loaded the device wrong. 

The less time you into and retie in the tree the less your chances are to screw up.


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## Iustinian (Mar 22, 2013)

those rappel racks looked fun, but I agree, easy to screw up for someone not used to using them. The figure 8 is very simple. Just dont waste your money on a pirana unless you really want to come down slow enough that you may as well have a magazine to read during your descent.


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## Guran (Mar 23, 2013)

imagineero said:


> A gri gri is not a bad tool either, and you can use it for a bunch of purposes.
> Shaun



I'm using my Gri-Gri with a static 10,5 mm (access) rope. has anybody tried it with a 1/2 inch (12 mm) arborist rope?
I have a New England Hi Vee, but have not tried that combo yet. Can imagine that a 12 mm rope would be a bit bulky for the Gri-Gri?
Guran.


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## beastmaster (Mar 23, 2013)

First time I used a Gri Gri it was with 1/2" line, it was bulky and slow, and not free flowing at all. Wouldn't lower at all DRT unless I feed it. I use 11mm and its pretty nice and I am getting some 10mm snake bite soon, looking forward to that.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 23, 2013)

Guran said:


> I'm using my Gri-Gri with a static 10,5 mm (access) rope. has anybody tried it with a 1/2 inch (12 mm) arborist rope?
> I have a New England Hi Vee, but have not tried that combo yet. Can imagine that a 12 mm rope would be a bit bulky for the Gri-Gri?
> Guran.



A half inch rope is almost 13 mm. A gri gri wont work on 1/2" rope. If you want something simular that does, try the petz, id or rig. They are designed for 1/2" rope, but its also tight in them.


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## Guran (Mar 24, 2013)

Yes, I know that Gri-Gri 2 is designed to work with 8.9 to 11 mm ropes, and is optimized for 9.4 mm to 10.3 mm ropes.
But I was just curious if it was possible at all to use a 12 mm rope. So now i know. 
Thanks.
Guran.


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## Iustinian (Mar 25, 2013)

guran said:


> i'm using my gri-gri with a static 10,5 mm (access) rope. Has anybody tried it with a 1/2 inch (12 mm) arborist rope?
> I have a new england hi vee, but have not tried that combo yet. Can imagine that a 12 mm rope would be a bit bulky for the gri-gri?
> Guran.



slow slow slow


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## WolfpactVI (Mar 25, 2013)

So my conclusion is, I may get an 8 sometime just for fun, and to practice with just so I know how to use it. But from everything posted so far, it seems it would not have a huge benefit unless I was making very long descents often (which I dont). Thanks everyone for the replies and experience.


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## miko0618 (Apr 6, 2013)

if you use a friction saver, the figure 8 isn't bad. natural crotch and you'll wish you weighed 300 lbs. they do have uses. I carry one incase I need lowered. I use mine for tensioning a zip line when I am doing that part instead of the ground guy. basically, one end is fixed to an object. the line runs up through a block/crotch and down through the 8. the 8 is attached to a sling. its not bad if you are sending lots of pieces per move. you can also use it as an in tree lowering device. its slower than having a groundie do it but, I just cant sit still. I don't go down and unhook it or anything. sometimes I would rather them stay busy on the clean up so Its done when I get down. I've never shock loaded it. I would guess that's probly not a good idea.


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