# Question for Bundled Firewood Sellers



## jbos333 (Feb 19, 2012)

Hi, I was wondering for those of you who sell bundled firewood wholesale for resale, what is the approximate markup for the retailer?

In my area, .75 Cu Ft hardwood bundles typically retail for $4.75-$7.50. What would my wholesale price have to be so the retailer could make enough profit to make it worthwhile to sell?


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## blackdogon57 (Feb 19, 2012)

Around here retail is around $7-9. Wholesale price is around $5.00. I am talking about .75 cubic foot bagged wood. In Canada bagged firewood must be labeled in both English and French with name of seller, quantity and a bunch of other crap.


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## CRThomas (Feb 19, 2012)

*Price*

I sell only bundle firewood my prices are. Wholesale $2.50 a bundle. Retail $5.00 a bundle. Delivered mini 5 bundles $7.00 a bundle. I only sell Ash firewood because It is light. Dries quick. Very pretty wood. Good btus. No snap crackle pop. Very little ash. Splits easy. I can dry two cord a week in my kiln and one cord a week in my shop. Try it you might like it. Later


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## MNGuns (Feb 19, 2012)

Generally half of retail, but I know of some that get a bit more. I know a large chain service station that pays $2.85 a bundle an sells at $4.99 a bundle. I do believe that account is due for a hostile take over...


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## CRThomas (Feb 19, 2012)

*Pricing*



MNGuns said:


> Generally half of retail, but I know of some that get a bit more. I know a large chain service station that pays $2.85 a bundle an sells at $4.99 a bundle. I do believe that account is due for a hostile take over...


 My firewood only I made better than $50.000.00 last year. I let a fellow talk me in to bulk selling that was terrible. Work my self from befor daylight to after dark and made less money. At the prices you get for bundled firewood you can buy bulk firewood pay $50.00 for a rank and you gross return will be five times your cost. That's good money to me but every body is different. Might not be enough for you. I work at it a bout 12 hours a week. Later


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## D&B Mack (Feb 20, 2012)

Not sure if you are doing this or not, but:

Don't do reverse pricing, it is a bad business practice. You need to figure out what it costs you to produce a bundle, then go from there. Let the retailer figure out for themselves the mark-up. You can get yourself in deep with pricing by market rather than by internal costs.


Once you figure out what you need, then you can see if you can get more by market evaluation. Most of our retailers are selling around an 80% markup, but then they offer deals (e.g. 2 for $x.xx) which puts them somewhere in the 60% range. I suggested a retail value when I started selling bundles and most stores used that number or stayed close to it. Some try to make a fortune off the bundles, but they don't sell very many.


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## CRThomas (Feb 20, 2012)

*Pricing*

In pricing you have to go with the area pricing. There is a out fit that just moved in to my area that is selling retail for $2.50 a bundle. But I will stay with my price. I will not get into a price cut war. Over the last 30 years I have seen those come and go. If I miss selling wood one week I do not get nerves and get crazy with my price. I cannot run 20 miles for one bundle sale just to keep cash flow going I put money back because this happens in business. You will see this happen in any type business. My wholesale business is doing fine but my delivery business has fell off to zero. Later just deliver one of my stores 60 bundles. This will do him for the season. 6 weeks to 2 months will have to start filling him up with land scape material people eat those big boulders up I can only set three toners but that's my main size. Just think if your wife saw a big natural forest colored rock in her flower bed.


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## jbos333 (Feb 20, 2012)

Thanks for the info so far. I'm glad to hear that someone is making money at this. There is a very large operation in my area that does bundles, ships them all over the country. But I have to believe I could still get a good amount of local business for myself.


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## CRThomas (Feb 20, 2012)

*Bundled firewood*

You have to watch the market the warm winter has got people nerves. A couple years ago when it got cold your local paper had maybe 2 people. Then when it gets cold about maybe 24 ads. Now with hard times my area had 164 people selling firewood in my area. Ever body is hurting for business. They cutting each others prices. No money put back you can't stand your ground. Later


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## CRThomas (Feb 3, 2014)

D&B Mack said:


> Not sure if you are doing this or not, but:
> 
> Don't do reverse pricing, it is a bad business practice. You need to figure out what it costs you to produce a bundle, then go from there. Let the retailer figure out for themselves the mark-up. You can get yourself in deep with pricing by market rather than by internal costs.
> 
> ...


i whole sell for $2.50 and my customers sell for $5.00 a bundle. My profit is $1.50 a bundle. When I deliver to homes I tell them it cash on delivery no checks or credit cards. I have had to load it back up on the truck and return home or deliver to another customer


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## CRThomas (Feb 3, 2014)

CRThomas said:


> *Bundled firewood*
> 
> You have to watch the market the warm winter has got people nerves. A couple years ago when it got cold your local paper had maybe 2 people. Then when it gets cold about maybe 24 ads. Now with hard times my area had 164 people selling firewood in my area. Ever body is hurting for business. They cutting each others prices. No money put back you can't stand your ground. Later[customer I only sell bundled firewood year round


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 3, 2014)

When you're saying $1.50 profit/bundle, are you meaning gross or net? I've been giving this some thought, but at $2.50/bundle (assuming the above $1.50/bundle profit is gross) that's only $56 more per cord than my gross delivery rate is now. Now the net would likely be better for that as there would be fewer, larger deliveries saving fuel and stacking would be much less time-consuming saving money there. If you're actually netting $256/cord, then I'm definitely on the wrong end of this.


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## CRThomas (Feb 4, 2014)

To give you figures I can buy a rank of firewood pickup truck load for $50.00 split it to the right size and bundle it deliver it. That makes average bundles 100 @ $1.50 profit comes to put in pocket a $150.00 I sell from 100 to 300 bundles a day a week. But I cut my only wood now. I have several hundreds acres to cut on. I only sell Ash the King of firewood.


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## mainewoods (Feb 4, 2014)

What's a "rank of firewood"?


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## Patrick62 (Feb 5, 2014)

I make bundles out here and wholesale them for $2.50 ea. The retail is around $4.00 ea. We both make a little on the deal.


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## Coldfront (Feb 5, 2014)

I can't believe people buy that stuff. I see if for sale here at gas stations and convenience stores for $4.99 a bundle of what looks like kindling about not even a arms load.


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## Patrick62 (Feb 5, 2014)

mainewoods said:


> What's a "rank of firewood"?



A rank of Firewood is measured in palms. (might even be made outta palms...) if you think you are getting shorted, use someone with smaller palms.
Or perhaps we should convert this measurement to cubits! One cubit this-a-way, and a bunch of cubits the other way. maybe a few extra thumbs for good measure. Maybe count the sticks? and call it a great hundred, 6 score, 120. I like to use the wey. Or a cartload. Now we are getting somewhere! 30 bushels.

Just because we use a powered cart doesn't change anything, does it? Could be a toyota hilux pickup, or a Cat 797B. It still is a cartload isn't it?

I am just funnin' with ya on that term of "Rank" of wood. It would seem that a cord (legally defined unit of measure) isn't acceptable in parts of the Country. Therefore it is necessary to drag in the local variations of measrements. If the customer is satisfied with the quantity of product what difference does it make anyway? Ricks, Ranks, Sticks, pickup load, and two arm loads.


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## Coldfront (Feb 5, 2014)

I though the op was talking about those bundles you see outside gas stations and convenience stores, not even a arm load.


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## CRThomas (Feb 5, 2014)

Patrick62 said:


> I make bundles out here and wholesale them for $2.50 ea. The retail is around $4.00 ea. We both make a little on the deal.


I make about $60000.00 a year


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

So you sell 200K in bundles?


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## sb47 (Feb 5, 2014)

At $2.50 a bundle whole sale you would need to sell 80 thousand bundles to make 200K.

Make me wonder if its worth it. How big are the bundles and if stacked if cords, how many cords would that be? seems like a lot of work for little money after your cost is deducted.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

I was saying 200K in sales to make 60K in profit. Moving all them bundles around costs money.


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## sb47 (Feb 6, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I was saying 200K in sales to make 60K in profit. Moving all them bundles around costs money.


Man I don’t mean to criticize your business but if I had to shell out 200K to make 60K in profit, I’d be looking for some other way to make a living.


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 6, 2014)

I guess I'd have to see the P&L statements (actual costs) to make this add up in my head. Either way I am starting to look at all of this to do the job costing and figure up the potential as I will be cutting as long as I'm physically capable and have another 11 years in the A.F. After that I intend to do a few different things to spread it out and enjoy my work, on my terms. We'll see.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

sb47 said:


> Man I don’t mean to criticize your business but if I had to shell out 200K to make 60K in profit, I’d be looking for some other way to make a living.



Nobody's shelling out 200K for making anything. It's sales vs profit. That would be 140K in expenses to make 60K in profit = 200K in sales. 

I pay myself to work (I'd have to hire someone else to be me if I wasn't there). I don't know how you run your business, but my time isn't free when I'm on the clock. Profit is what's left over after I get paid and all other expenses are accounted for. If my hourly wage is all I end up with after a job is done, I haven't made any profit - I broke even.


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## sb47 (Feb 6, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I was saying 200K in sales to make 60K in profit. Moving all them bundles around costs money.



You said it yourself, you had 200k in sales to make 60k in profit.
That 140k went somewhere. Where did the 140k go?


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

You misread what I said. I asked CRThomas if he sold 200K in bundles after he said he made 60K. I'm looking for a 30% profit, so I figured 200K was a good guess. Maybe it's low, maybe it's high? We'll never know unless he answers.

"So you sell 200K in bundles?" <- that's my post.


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## sb47 (Feb 6, 2014)

Ok maybe I read it wrong.


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## zogger (Feb 6, 2014)

How do you guys measure your bundles? About how many sticks in each bundle once it is measured out?


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## CRThomas (Feb 7, 2014)

I have bundles for $10.00 a bundle with the lady's dog picture on it she buys 365 bundles a year and other lady she buys 365 at $7.50 .my bundles have from 8 sticks to 4 depending on the size customers want. My kindling is just a square bundles. Tuesday I had to deliver till almost midnight. I sell bundle firewood year round even in 95 degrees weather


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## CRThomas (Feb 7, 2014)

sb47 said:


> Ok maybe I read it wrong.


I have about $250 thousand in equipment the firewood business pays for it and we get about $60 thousand pay at the end of the year our pay. The rest of the money goes in to fuel repairs and company bank account we only pay our self once a year day be for Xmas. My wife has a government job for our insurance main thing about this firewood business I am 73 and it keeps me a live I liked the stay a live part better young people and lazy people don't under stand that I hah to spend some money to keep from paying taxes so I bought a truck and 3 new Stihl saws. And a 1999 one ton flat bed dump so I would not mess up the new truck 250 power stroke. We are very happy with thebusiness different stroke for different folks I ttried the truck load firewood sales very paid for fuel


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 8, 2014)

CRThomas said:


> I have about $250 thousand in equipment the firewood business pays for it and we get about $60 thousand pay at the end of the year our pay. The rest of the money goes in to fuel repairs and company bank account we only pay our self once a year day be for Xmas. My wife has a government job for our insurance main thing about this firewood business I am 73 and it keeps me a live I liked the stay a live part better young people and lazy people don't under stand that I hah to spend some money to keep from paying taxes so I bought a truck and 3 new Stihl saws. And a 1999 one ton flat bed dump so I would not mess up the new truck 250 power stroke. We are very happy with thebusiness different stroke for different folks I ttried the truck load firewood sales very paid for fuel



If you don't mind my asking, what are you using for a processor, or are you bucking by hand and then splitting? I ask as I'm considering doing bundles and will have a S.S when funds allow for more efficient splitting. A TW-6 would be nice but the S.S. seems like a lot better bang for the buck (outside of the lack of log lift). I would love to have a processor, but most of the wood I have access to wouldn't really be practical as none of it is straight, it's full of crotches and is often bigger than 16"... Most of the processors I've seen that would do wht I need are pushing $80k or so...


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## CRThomas (Feb 9, 2014)

Locust Cutter said:


> If you don't mind my asking, whatWhen I deliveryou using for a processor, or are you bucking by hand and then splitting? I ask as I'm considering doing bundles and will have a S.S when funds allow for more efficient splitting. A TW-6 would be nice but the S.S. seems like a lot better bang for the buck (outside of the lack of log lift). I would love to have a processor, but most of the wood I have access to wouldn't really be practical as none of it is straight, it's full of crotches and is often bigger than 16"... Most of the processors I've seen that would do wht I need are pushing $80k or so...


I do most of my firewood by hand for say. Do to a lot of my Ash logs are 3 to 4 foot. When I deliver to the homes minimum 10 bundles the price is $10.00 a bundle. I clean out there fire place that's $50.00 I walk there dog or take out the garbage that's $25.00. I have all the free timber that ill never run out. I cut the logs in 8 ft. Links I
if there hard wood they go to the mill. I dont sell hard wood its to much trouble and no profit. I can do complete 60 bundles in the morning and deliver them in after noon .get home set myself up for next day all my set up I made my self.just bought a one ton flat bed with cash and three new stihl chain saws and electric saw I love it but it is heavy.my splinter is built to split the pieces the right size.later my dog wants out


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## CRThomas (Feb 9, 2014)

There's more to it than that="sb47, post: 4684858, member: 66284"]At $2.50 a bundle whole sale you would need to sell 80 thousand bundles to make 200K.

Make me wonder if its worth it. How big are the bundles and if stacked if cords, how many cords would that be? seems like a lot of work for little money after your cost is deducted.[/quote]
Theres


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## CRThomas (Feb 9, 2014)

CRThomas said:


> There's more to it than that="sb47, post: 4684858, member: 66284"]At $2.50 a bundle whole sale you would need to sell 80 thousand bundles to make 200K.
> 
> Make me wonder if its worth it. How big are the bundles and if stacked if cords, how many cords would that be? seems like a lot of work for little money after your cost is deducted.


Theres[/quote]
Remember only a fourth of my bundles are $2.50


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 9, 2014)

CRThomas said:


> There's more to it than that="sb47, post: 4684858, member: 66284"]At $2.50 a bundle whole sale you would need to sell 80 thousand bundles to make 200K.
> 
> Make me wonder if its worth it. How big are the bundles and if stacked if cords, how many cords would that be? seems like a lot of work for little money after your cost is deducted.


Theres[/quote]

That's why I was asking you and he some of the details to get a better isea of the financial liability implications. I'm looking at the "standard" .75cuft bundle. If he's truly selling $200K in bundles (assuming $2.50/ standard .75cuft bundle) then that equals 468.75 (call it 469) cords of wood at 128 cubic fee per cord, selling 80K 0.75 cubic foot bundles. That's a lot of damn wood to make 60K profit/year. 

There's no way I can hope to come near that anytime soon, if ever. I would like to get to the point of 50 cords/year, where I'm selling 40 of those (10 for me). Assuming I sell 40 cords, in bundle form that equals 5,120cuft or 6,826 bundles. IF I can make a net profit of $1.50/bundle that would be $10,240.00 which wouldn't be bad for a smaller, side income stream. AT that point I would definitely form either a LLC or Sole Proprietorship and take advantage of the ability to depreciate equipment out on taxes (S.S or TW-6, trailer, skid steer, wrapper, etc). However to get to that point, I have to truly know my costs, which I am starting this year via Quickbooks as my wife is one class away from being a professional accountant. The one thing that I think a lot of people don't realize, until they really try to declare a business is a true picture of their costs, from financial and time perspectives. I thought I had a decent idea of my costs until I started really accounting for everything, mileage, fuel, maintenance, etc. Those add up quick.


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