# Having some trees logged



## modn (Dec 10, 2008)

I meet with a logger tomorrow that called me to say he was interested in my Cherry & hard Maple trees. He stated he would give me 50% of what he received. Is this a workable deal? 1st variable: It is a hard place for me to get to as it is a 1/2 mile from my house or the nearest road. I burn wood so the tops would be good for him to leave as I will go back in to cut as long as it is productive (big load for the tractor and wagon) and in a dry area. The wood is obviously worth more in log form than fire wood as they are at least 16" up to 24". What questions do I ask him? We will be walking it tomorrow and mark the ones I will allow to let him cut. He said he will show me the sheet to varify what actually was taken and loaded. He logged the next door neighbor and there were no problems with him so I assume he treated him well. My biggest concern is being taken to the cleaners. I have no idea what these trees are worth. Any ideas?


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## trentausherman (Dec 10, 2008)

Black cherry and hard maple are most likely the higher valued trees. Just do not let him take all of them. Here is a link for my area not sure how much difference it is in your area http://www.sfr.cas.psu.edu/TMR/2008/3-08 TMR/PriceReport_3-08.pdf hope this helps


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## treeslayer (Dec 10, 2008)

50% is a standard deal, you have to feel comfortable getting the actual quantity of wood pulled off your property. that's hard to do, its a trust thing. 
Unless you're watching. 

If he takes it all to the same mill, well, there's your paper trail. talk to your neighbor, find out what he got for whats probably the same wood. ask the logger for estimated board footage, he knows. the wood will have to be graded for quality, which is a variable price of course. however, call the mills, they can give you price ranges.

how many acres? might be worth getting a timber broker or forestry consultant.

also, picking out proper seed trees, and not overlogging, cuts into $$$$.
Be clear with him about that.

check out this outfit.

www.stlawrencelumber.com


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## treeslayer (Dec 10, 2008)

another useful site, log scales and such.

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/forestry/420-085/420-085.html


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## hammerlogging (Dec 10, 2008)

Lets say it costs a logger to harvest timber, steep terrain, a good job could be worth $250/mbf and up, delivered. So lets say your Hard Maple and Cherry average $700/mbf. Unless this is a very small tract, hire a forester to sell stumpage. Shares is fair when it works out to what logging costs, like if you were averaging $500-$600/mbf, but in your case, possibly taken to the cleaners. Get a contract to define exactly your expectations, and only work with a forester that speaks your language, does good for the land, gives a damn. And will monitor the loggers atleast once or twice a week for contract compliance.


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## Cletuspsc (Dec 10, 2008)

Call a consulting forester to mark the timber and put it up for bid is the best route to go. but 50% is standard. whereabouts in NY is LaFargeville. if your in the hudson vally regon i could give you a pritty darn good idea of prices


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## modn (Dec 10, 2008)

Thanks all for the info as it really does help me. We are going in tomorrow to mark the trees he is allowed to cut.....in other words I don't want the woods to be bare. It is only an 8 acre lot, but he has some lots on the other side of me (he has to go through me to get to them). Obviously this is a very small tract, but pretty thick and he called me (mostly why I'm a little gun shy). My location is on the St. Lawrence river Northern NY 20 miles North Of Watertown 30 miles East of Kingston, Ontario.


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## Cletuspsc (Dec 10, 2008)

Sounds like ya got a good hold on it there. just as my opinion i wouldent let him cut any wood smaller than 18" in DBH. If hes gonna be bringing other peoples wood threw your property you are kinda entitled to some $. id ask for 2-5% of the total value of the harvested timber. just my thoughts.


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## modn (Dec 10, 2008)

treeslayer said:


> 50% is a standard deal, you have to feel comfortable getting the actual quantity of wood pulled off your property. that's hard to do, its a trust thing.
> Unless you're watching.
> 
> If he takes it all to the same mill, well, there's your paper trail. talk to your neighbor, find out what he got for whats probably the same wood. ask the logger for estimated board footage, he knows. the wood will have to be graded for quality, which is a variable price of course. however, call the mills, they can give you price ranges.
> ...




That link you gave me is 15 miles from me. I have talked to Greg many times actually. I have made a few calls to different people he has logged for and they all claim he is a fair guy. I still will ask him many questions but I feel a bit better that the 50/50 deal is pretty standard. I know the next door neighbor that he just got done with has roughly 20 acres wooded and he gave him $15k for his. He also walked him around and marked his trees he would allow also. Knowing this neighbor if he's happy then anyone will be!!


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## modn (Dec 10, 2008)

Cletuspsc said:


> Sounds like ya got a good hold on it there. just as my opinion i wouldent let him cut any wood smaller than 18" in DBH. If hes gonna be bringing other peoples wood threw your property you are kinda entitled to some $. id ask for 2-5% of the total value of the harvested timber. just my thoughts.



He did mention something about dropping off a load of firewood (logs) tandem truck. We'll see tomorrow what he has for a plan. I can always walk away as I don't need the coin if I won't be happy.


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## acer saccharum (Dec 10, 2008)

My guess is that if you have hard maple and cherry, you also have beech, yellow/white birch, red maple and possibly some fir/spruce. All are less valuable species, beech if diseased is only good for firewood. If you just take the biggest and most valuable trees out now the other less desirable wood keeps growing while some cherry/hard maple grows back. 15-20 years from now when you go to cut again you will find yourself with fewer high value trees, because the garbage got bigger and there was less room for the desirable trees to grow back. 

The logger wants to cut only the highest value wood, because that is what will make him the most money now. And there is nothing wrong with that. But it is your land, not his. His interest in making the most money today might not be in your best interest 20 years from now. A consult with independent forester now, even if it costs you a little up front might pay dividends to you or your children 20 and 40 years from now.

8 acres is a nice sized parcel, with a brush cutter and some determination you can easily select which trees you want to grow back and which you would rather not have. i.e. prevent a beech thicket from taking over.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Dec 11, 2008)

acer saccharum said:


> My guess is that if you have hard maple and cherry, you also have beech, yellow/white birch, red maple and possibly some fir/spruce. All are less valuable species, beech if diseased is only good for firewood. If you just take the biggest and most valuable trees out now the other less desirable wood keeps growing while some cherry/hard maple grows back. 15-20 years from now when you go to cut again you will find yourself with fewer high value trees, because the garbage got bigger and there was less room for the desirable trees to grow back.
> 
> The logger wants to cut only the highest value wood, because that is what will make him the most money now. And there is nothing wrong with that. But it is your land, not his. His interest in making the most money today might not be in your best interest 20 years from now. A consult with independent forester now, even if it costs you a little up front might pay dividends to you or your children 20 and 40 years from now.
> 
> 8 acres is a nice sized parcel, with a brush cutter and some determination you can easily select which trees you want to grow back and which you would rather not have. i.e. prevent a beech thicket from taking over.



I agree with this guy. Knowing many loggers that call land owners up, most are interested in trees worth the most money. When in reality the first trees to be cut should be the suppressed, diseased, weak, poor form, slowest growing, and generally worst trees present in the stand. You should not let him cut all trees in a certain diameter as that is basically high grading.


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## modn (Dec 11, 2008)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> I agree with this guy. Knowing many loggers that call land owners up, most are interested in trees worth the most money. When in reality the first trees to be cut should be the suppressed, diseased, weak, poor form, slowest growing, and generally worst trees present in the stand. You should not let him cut all trees in a certain diameter as that is basically high grading.



It is my decision what to cut, that is the main reason for the meeting today. I agree though.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Dec 11, 2008)

modn said:


> It is my decision what to cut, that is the main reason for the meeting today. I agree though.



Well make sure he leaves the best quality trees. Also make sure he cuts across all the diameter ranges, not just big trees. Once you get your trees marked, go back and put a stump mark on the trees so that you can double check that only the right trees are cut.


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## Bushler (Dec 11, 2008)

Here's another thought. When you are marking your unit with the logger, pay attention to the necessity to skid the logs, and how the skid roads will effect the remaining timber, both now and later. Try to lay out the harvest pattern to minimize adverse impact on the remaining trees, and how to make the logging the easiest and most effecient. 

If logging is done with a dozer or skidder try to keep the skid roads as straight as possible to minimize turning the Cat. The operator will apprecitate this, and so will you when your leave trees are not scarred from dragging logs into them.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Dec 11, 2008)

Call some local mills and see if you can get a price per mbf for mill delivered maple and cherry. Research how to scale up some trees, so you can get a rough balllpark of the mbf on the stump.


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## modn (Dec 11, 2008)

Excellent ideas!!! I really do appreciate it!!


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Dec 11, 2008)

modn said:


> Excellent ideas!!! I really do appreciate it!!



No problems, if any questions arise... let us know we are glad to help. I hate seeing landowners getting bent over the table by loggers and foresters alike. Just like seeing sound management practices taking place.


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## treeslayer (Dec 11, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Here's another thought. When you are marking your unit with the logger, pay attention to the necessity to skid the logs, and how the skid roads will effect the remaining timber, both now and later. Try to lay out the harvest pattern to minimize adverse impact on the remaining trees, and how to make the logging the easiest and most effecient.
> 
> If logging is done with a dozer or skidder try to keep the skid roads as straight as possible to minimize turning the Cat. The operator will apprecitate this, and so will you when your leave trees are not scarred from dragging logs into them.


 very good advice, also look out for watersheds, wet or dry.


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## Mad Professor (Dec 11, 2008)

Why not work on having him bring out the tops/firewood as part of the deal?

A nice big pile where you need it.


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## modn (Dec 12, 2008)

Mad Professor said:


> Why not work on having him bring out the tops/firewood as part of the deal?
> 
> A nice big pile where you need it.



That will be part of the deal as we talked yesterday and will pound out a contract today. He won't bring out the actual tops as I can't blame him and I can go get them. He will bring me a tandem load of firewood though. It is looking good though and we are on the same wave length so I feel a bit better. He also invited me to come back every day if you need to and to not be afraid to speak up if there is something you don't like. Of course I have no problem doing that, but it is good to hear though. The next door neighbor is extremely happy and even bought him (the logger)a carhart jacket to show his appreciation. He also stated the mills were paying him roughly on average $1000/m for average Cherry. He is in the ballpark.


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## booboo (Dec 12, 2008)

Watch what you're being told cherry is going for carefully. Sounds like the guy is being straight up with you but pay attention. I was told by a log buyer the other day that lower grade cherry is dropping fast. It wasn't that important to me since the lot we're on has no cherry but the markets are changing fast. 

Just my .02


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## johninky (Dec 12, 2008)

Not to hijack this thread but the family farm in NE Ohio has a fair amount of ash. I am thinking about having it cut because of the EAB infestation, which hasn't affected the ash trees as of yet. A local farmer is interested in the ash. Wondering what a fair price is for the ash. The local guy will do all the work but has essentially no transportation cost as the logs will literally be dragged from the woods onto his father's property where they will be milled. I was thinking .25pbf. Too cheap or too high?


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## modn (Dec 12, 2008)

booboo said:


> Watch what you're being told cherry is going for carefully. Sounds like the guy is being straight up with you but pay attention. I was told by a log buyer the other day that lower grade cherry is dropping fast. It wasn't that important to me since the lot we're on has no cherry but the markets are changing fast.
> 
> Just my .02



He did state that and also said the Hard maple has been dropping a little but is still strong. I will be paying attention until we strike a deal and then when it's done.


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## LEES WOODC (Dec 12, 2008)

Most all hardwood prices are in the crapper now. If it were me I wood hold on till things got better. Not looking good for at least a year. Check NYSDEC website for stumpage prices in your area of NY.


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## SuperDuty335 (Dec 22, 2008)

The mills that are buying are paying $25/ton for pine and $12/ton for pulpwood down here.


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## modn (Dec 25, 2008)

He has been in there for a week now and is doing as he said he would and by the contract. He figures another week to go. I will meet with him tomorrow to show him where I want my load of firewood logs. I have been back numorous times and it isn't tore up too much at all and is pretty clean for being in the middle of it. Bottom line...I'm happy for now.


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## bradstr (Dec 25, 2008)

Any pictures of the job being done?


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## goatchin (Dec 25, 2008)

:agree2:


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## H2C (Dec 25, 2008)

*Video Resource*



modn said:


> He has been in there for a week now and is doing as he said he would and by the contract. He figures another week to go. I will meet with him tomorrow to show him where I want my load of firewood logs. I have been back numorous times and it isn't tore up too much at all and is pretty clean for being in the middle of it. Bottom line...I'm happy for now.



MODN, sounds like you have a very nice place and I appreciate all your efforts to protect it. I am interested in forestry management and wish I had my own wooded acreage (trying to prepare for a future acquisition...or so I hope). However, in doing some research I found this site (Forestry Video and Natural Resource) and just wanted to share some great educational videos such as this one on Managing Your Woodlot:

http://www.forestryvideos.net/series/managing-your-woodlot-the-complete-nine-part-series/view

My apologies if this is "old hat" to all of you but I found it very interesting as a newcomer. (Love those trees!)

Merry Christmas.


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## modn (Dec 25, 2008)

bradstr said:


> Any pictures of the job being done?



Sometime this week I should be able to get some as I'm off until January 5th. I couldn't get any before as I was usually hurried to get back there before the sun went down.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 26, 2008)

Glad to hear its going well and you are satisfied. getting your timber logged is a big decision and as long as you're happy its a success. As you've been warned, there's potentially lots of ways to get screwed, but theres also lots of honest operators, and I'm glad you're happy with the work.


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