# Air knife/air spade



## kennertree (Apr 26, 2008)

How many of you have one of these handy little gadgets? How has it helped your business? How do you price this work? I was thinking of getting one of these. Seems like it would be easy to sell and one of the most beneficial treatments for compacted soils. I was curious about the pricing because a client of mine has 7 mature trees that have root issues and was wondering if a job like this would pay for one. Thanks for any info you can give me.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 27, 2008)

I try to price it a a bit over climbing work, since few people do it here.

If you do not do it often, then you can make one around 75% as good from pipe and fittings with a ball valve. Just use have a few different reducers for the tip and a chopped funnel as a "blast deflector".

I think people with gardens are the most amenable, since the basal flair can be an focal point.


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## ddhlakebound (Apr 27, 2008)

Nice idea JPS, once you've built a wand, how many PSI do you need to operate it? 

Do you need to cart around a generator and big air compressor, or is there an easier way?


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## md_tree_dood (Apr 27, 2008)

I've used an Air Spade on many occasions. It's great for root pruning when dealing with construction damage and such. It's also great for improper mulching by landscaping companies. If you do alot of this type of work, it's invaluable.


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## kennertree (Apr 27, 2008)

From what I gather most price it by the hour, correct? If so, about how long does it take to radial trench and amend the soil on a mature tree 36" dbh out to the drip line?


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## mckeetree (Apr 27, 2008)

kennertree said:


> From what I gather most price it by the hour, correct? If so, about how long does it take to radial trench and amend the soil on a mature tree 36" dbh out to the drip line?



If it is pretty tuff stuff it takes me a couple hours.


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## mckeetree (Apr 27, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> Nice idea JPS, once you've built a wand, how many PSI do you need to operate it?
> 
> Do you need to cart around a generator and big air compressor, or is there an easier way?



Well I don't want to start an argument with JPS but those homemade airspades are not any good. What you need to cart is your butt to concept engineering and buy one if you want one, and yes, you need a big compressor. I don't know what you need the generator for unless you are air-spading in the dark.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 28, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> Well I don't want to start an argument with JPS but those homemade airspades are not any good.



I have an AirKnife, but know several people who have made effective airtools out of around $40 of standard pipe. Head to head they were not as effective as the AirSpade (R) I was using at the time, but to them the savings was worth it.

Like I said, 75% as effective

If you have a few jobs you can get started with, then rent a compressor (185cfm is my preferred). Once you have enough of the work lined up, then go with the real thing.


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## tree MDS (Apr 28, 2008)

I've been running into bartlett lately, here's a good one: a friend of mine was trying to get me into this huge estate, bartlett got in and was there for like two months, must've been a phenominal bill-multiple crews too, anyway, they send their line guys up hacking away, after they airspaded the roots and left them exposed, bombing logs unto the basal roots blasting off chunks of cambium-oh yeah, they're "the best", lol.


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## md_tree_dood (Apr 28, 2008)

Is Bartlett the best, they have an office about an hour from me.


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## tree MDS (Apr 28, 2008)

md_tree_dood said:


> Is Bartlett the best, they have an office about an hour from me.



No.


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## ATH (Apr 28, 2008)

Couple of comments:
1) The tool is the "cheap" part when you look at the cost of the compressor. Rental is at least $100 per day. You only need 100psi, but you need 185cfm. If you can find a worthwhile used one for less than $5500 you are doing well.

2) AirKnive or AirSpade? I have used both. On the surface, the AirSpade looks more ergonomic, but in use, I like the AirKnife a little better.

3) Pricing: I think I am close to loosing money if I charge less than $65 per hour. Time it takes to do the work depends on soil condition, make-up and moisture. Dry compacted clay -- forget about it, don't waste your time!

4) I certainly need to market it better, but the firms who do a good job marketing just about have a guy or 2 doing it full time in the spring and fall.


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## kennertree (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I'm just trying to get a ballpark of how long it will take on 6 mature trees. From what i've learned I could get 3 mature trees done in a day, a long day. I will be pricing by the hour plus the cost of the compressor and soil ammendments. Another local tree company called us the other day and told us the guy from supersonic air knife is coming down to do a demo. I ill learn alot more about then.


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## mckeetree (Apr 28, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I have an AirKnife, but know several people who have made effective airtools out of around $40 of standard pipe. Head to head they were not as effective as the AirSpade (R) I was using at the time, but to them the savings was worth it.
> 
> Like I said, 75% as effective
> 
> If you have a few jobs you can get started with, then rent a compressor (185cfm is my preferred). Once you have enough of the work lined up, then go with the real thing.



Dan to Sally: Was I as good as your last boyfriend?
Sally to Dan: Well, I would say you were 75% effective.


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## kennertree (May 2, 2008)

*More questions*

What do you guys use for soil ammendments? I plan on using compost and I'm checking into worm castings. If there is anything better let me know. Also, when ammending the soil on a large mature tree aproximately how much compost does it take per tree if I'm radial trenching out to the drip line?


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 3, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> Dan to Sally: Was I as good as your last boyfriend?
> Sally to Dan: Well, I would say you were 75% effective.



I'm talking about time efficiency. If you have a handfull of jobs a season, then the $30 home job is worth it.

If you are a bigger company where $1300 for a tool is not a big outlay, then that is the way to go.



kennertree said:


> What do you guys use for soil ammendments? I plan on using compost and I'm checking into worm castings. If there is anything better let me know. Also, when ammending the soil on a large mature tree aproximately how much compost does it take per tree if I'm radial trenching out to the drip line?



A good turned compost with lots of mycillia running through it. 

Rule of thumb is a 25% loss of fines due to drift, could be up to 30% with looser soils on a dry day. From there you do the math per job for volumes. If there is a big change of grade you are correcting, you may end up hauling some "native" soil away.

I've also seen tanks of week composted (!!!aseptic!!!) manure slurry drenched prior to backfill on a job with radial trenching and horizontal boring in between.

I emphasize aseptic because the stinkypoo tanked manure they spread these days from factory farms can be phytotoxic. Anaerobic decomposition makes higher alcohols, and other compounds. Anything we put around a tree should smell like good clean earth, something you would enjoy getting your hands into.


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## ATH (May 3, 2008)

The other thing to consider in addition to compost for back fill is some diatomaceous earth (the bigger grains, not the powered stuff) or perlite. These increase and maintain pore space, but are (very close to) chemically inert.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 4, 2008)

ATH said:


> The other thing to consider in addition to compost for back fill is some diatomaceous earth (the bigger grains, not the powered stuff) or perlite. These increase and maintain pore space, but are (very close to) chemically inert.




True, a sandy loam with a coarse sand is good to. 

Another thing to remember is that uniform ped size (ped = unit of soil) will lead to fast compaction. This is basic materials science. Larger peds will have more voids between them.

All this means is; you do not need to break the soil down into a fine shred like a gardener who tills regularly would want.


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## kennertree (May 9, 2008)

Had some time today to try out the air knife on a tree at my house. I'm real impressed with it. I did some radial trenching and between the trenches shot some holes in there for vertical mulching. Here are a few pics.


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## kennertree (May 11, 2008)

Did a root crown excavation to a poplar that is in decline. This damage was done a few years ago during the grading work on a construction site. This is why it's so important to do pre-construction planning to protect rootzones.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 11, 2008)

kennertree said:


> Had some time today to try out the air knife on a tree at my house. I'm real impressed with it. I did some radial trenching and between the trenches shot some holes in there for vertical mulching. Here are a few pics.



From what I can see in the trenching pictures I would have gone deeper. What is the average depth of the trenches?


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## kennertree (May 11, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> From what I can see in the trenching pictures I would have gone deeper. What is the average depth of the trenches?



Went about 8 inches most of the time its deeper in spots though. I should have went deeper to encourage those roots to go deeper.


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

kennertree said:


> Went about 8 inches most of the time its deeper in spots though. I should have went deeper to encourage those roots to go deeper.



Looks nice though, was that your first attemt with one of those things? I have to agree that must work well/seems like a good idea, most of my customers just want the trees cut down though, I like takedowns because they are easier than pruning, maybe thats just the client base I've developed, not sure. I'm starting to plant trees this week, new venture, just bought a set of new forks for the tractor/backhoe, its part of my "replacement plantings available" ploy to suck in the richies, I think I'll like it though, hey anybody can be an "axman" right!, lol. We were even talkin about brewing our own compost tea fer awhile there, my ex got NOFA certified and all, just never happened. I think thats how you take it to the next level, do more big pruning jobs if you can get em, that way you got enough work to make a second (or whatever) climber busy makin it for you, and then your takedowns are allways there also.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 11, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> I think thats how you take it to the next level, do more big pruning jobs if you can get em, that way you got enough work to make a second (or whatever) climber busy makin it for you, and then your takedowns are allways there also.



I look at it the other way. If you can get the pruning work, then you can turn the customer into a revolving account. If the property is big enough, then you can come in maybe once a year. Some of my clients (I sub to) have clients that they work for several times a year. Be it shrubs, invasives control, trim, remove or plant.

The more you do the less another person will be on "your" account.

I allways go back to the "Simple Math";
300 clients 
with an average gross of 1000
on a 3 year cycle
is 100,000 per year.

200 day average work-year
200,000 budgeted gross income
gets you half way through the year

If you can schedule most of those for the times your bidding is slow, then it will help even more.


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

I like that John, I've heard you say that before just not in as much detail, makes sense, I also like the part about when you're slow, those big prune types are usually loaded as well and just want to know that thier trees are well taken care of. The main reason I dont like pruning so much is its just me, so its slow, and I get real anal about it so its even worse, I never make much at it. When I worked for this other guy there used to be three or four good guys aloft at a time, thats how you do it if ya can. For me just having another guy doing close to as much as me and doing it right would be an amazing help, ya got me thinking about my other thread with the help actually, thanks John, MDS.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 14, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> The main reason I dont like pruning so much is its just me, so its slow, and I get real anal about it so its even worse, I never make much at it.



The "trick" is to bid it so you can do it well and on time. If it is one you can do on a cycle, then set it up so that one or two trees are done on any given visit. You do not have to get it all done that day.

Maybe you can concentrate on "hazard deadwood" over high use areas and tip thinning to reduce leverage loads. 

One problem with getting into high income areas is that some think that those people will have a huge amount of disposable income. In reality that is a small percentage of the population, like you and me those people live within their means, or are just as much in debt.

Proposing a cycle that is manageable will help you maintain the relationship.

Work in some high-vis work with the low vis, this way you don't get all that they can see done at once, causing them to think it is done.

Quite often I'll propose not doing entire trees on a given visit, because it will be easier to transfer from one section of tree A to get something in tree B. Then go from tree A to tree C on the next visit.



> When I worked for this other guy there used to be three or four good guys aloft at a time, thats how you do it if ya can. For me just having another guy doing close to as much as me and doing it right would be an amazing help.



Tag team's are nice, when everyone is on the same page. Find someone who is better then you to work with you on a bigger winter project. This will help you push yourself.

On the other hand it can generate so much more debris, that you get buried. I had a client 2 hours north of me. He chose to not use me any more, because it would take him 3 days to catch up on the clean-up. 

Lastly, what will you have to pass on if you are a removal tech? I heard it put very well on the myXM the other day, some people can spend 10 years building themselves a great job, while another guy can start the same thing and build a business he can retire from.

If you have a client base that you can sell to as you turn the company over to whomever buys it, you will be better off as you phase out.


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## SpecialForces (Sep 25, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I have an AirKnife, but know several people who have made effective airtools out of around $40 of standard pipe. Head to head they were not as effective as the AirSpade (R) I was using at the time, but to them the savings was worth it.
> 
> Like I said, 75% as effective
> 
> If you have a few jobs you can get started with, then rent a compressor (185cfm is my preferred). Once you have enough of the work lined up, then go with the real thing.



Hello if you need help building an air spade email me @ [email protected]


the spades that i have been building are about 90% as efficient as the trademarked version thats $1200 i have use them many times side by side.


Aaron Dillon


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## maloufstree (Sep 26, 2009)

kennertree said:


> Had some time today to try out the air knife on a tree at my house. I'm real impressed with it. I did some radial trenching and between the trenches shot some holes in there for vertical mulching. Here are a few pics.



Excuse my ignorance and please bare with me. This aspect of tree work is new to me, but after the radial trenching then what your saying is back fill with compost?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 26, 2009)

maloufstree said:


> Excuse my ignorance and please bare with me. This aspect of tree work is new to me, but after the radial trenching then what your saying is back fill with compost?



Correct, I will use a sandy loam to fill in. Lots of organics, sometimes some humic soil added in.


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## maloufstree (Sep 26, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Correct, I will use a sandy loam to fill in. Lots of organics, sometimes some humic soil added in.



Do you backfill yo yhe level the soil originally was? Mulch on top?


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## ATH (Sep 26, 2009)

Backfill so the original grade is the same (know it may settle just a little). Then mulch the whole thing.

The trenches will be softer as you walk over the area.

I do not use sand around here. Sand+clay=cement.


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## logantree (Sep 27, 2009)

Does anyone in the southwest VA area have an Air-Spade? I might need someone to do some work for me. If you're interested in doing it send me a PM.

Thanks


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