# Welder, Welding questions for log splitter



## r0858 (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi guys. Just starting to do my own welding in building my log splitters. Can anyone recommend a a good welding machine. I am intending on getting an engine driven one off ebay if the price is right.

I just need more basic information like what amp rating is good, and stuff like that.. Im leaning toward a lincoln SA200


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## fishercat (Feb 16, 2009)

*i have a lincoln pro mig 175.*

it's a 220 volt machine.i'm not keen on 110v unless it's your only option.

i have welded everything from solid axle swaps on toyota trucks to trailer hitches on dump trucks.miller is a good machine as well.


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## Metals406 (Feb 16, 2009)

Millers new dual voltage unit... I may even get one eventually.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MILLER-MILLERMA...emQQimsxZ20090204?IMSfp=TL0902041710005r22614


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## Richard_ (Feb 16, 2009)

check CL , you can usually find a good used AC Lincoln ARC welder for about $200.00 , an AC/DC would be better , but for the price it can't be beat


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## blis (Feb 16, 2009)

IMO any decent arc welder capable of burning up to 3,25mm sticks is enough for building splitters and such...


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## Austin1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Richard_ said:


> check CL , you can usually find a good used AC Lincoln ARC welder for about $200.00 , an AC/DC would be better , but for the price it can't be beat


+1 I have a little Lincoln buz box in my shop at home it is no DC welder but does fine, I find 7014 rods the best for AC wielding almost idiot prof
P.S they make a really good 7018 rod now for AC welders


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## Austin1 (Feb 16, 2009)

blis said:


> IMO any decent arc welder capable of burning up to 3,25mm sticks is enough for building splitters and such...


Metric now you got every one confused! we use both so I can understand.


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## tomtrees58 (Feb 16, 2009)

Richard_ said:


> check CL , you can usually find a good used AC Lincoln ARC welder for about $200.00 , an AC/DC would be better , but for the price it can't be beat


:agree2: thats Watt i have tom trees

ps weld with 7018 rod


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## Bl8tant (Feb 16, 2009)

Between the Lincoln Pro-Mig 180C and the trusty Lincoln 225AC I've been able to weld anything I wanted. The 225AC is a new addition that I got for free from my FIL (he can't use it after getting a pacemaker).

If I had to choose only 1 welder I'd take the 180C.


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## Buckethead (Feb 16, 2009)

I have a Lincoln buzz box, a Miller MIG welder and a big old Frankenstein AC welder that were all given to me. So far they have managed to meet any welding needs...although it would be nice to had the ability to weld DC. I learned to weld with the buzz box and I weld much better with stick than MIG.

If I were to get the welder of my dreams it would be a Miller Bobcat or Trailblazer. Both are engine driven, can be used for MIG, TIG, or stick, and they can be used as a generator during power outages.

The really good welders I know say that "if you aren't a good welder, then you better be a good grinder."

I'm a FANTASTIC grinder!


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## fireman31 (Feb 16, 2009)

*I've got an extra welder*

I'm not sure where you are located but I've got an extra welder that I'd make you a heck of a deal on. It was part of a package deal I got on Craigslist! 

I just don't need or have space for 2 welders.


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## Photog95 (Feb 16, 2009)

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask this question, stay away from a stick welder. I can teach a monkey how to MIG weld, but stick is a lost art that can not be learned over night. The welds on a log splitter have tremenous stress on them, and if it is not welded properly it is going to come apart.


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## blackdoggy (Feb 16, 2009)

You want to use 7018 1/8 inch rods with a 220V AC/DC machine or you can use 1/4 inch and bigger rods like I did and burn that sucker into place . Avoid mig welders like the plague especially if your just learning to weld you will find stick VERY simple to run. Just make sure you get nice penetrating beads and know how to grind out your welds. The links below will help you out a bunch, 
http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/AWTC/Lesson1_1.htm
http://microzone.us/weldingforum/


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## gink595 (Feb 16, 2009)

r0858 said:


> Hi guys. Just starting to do my own welding in building my log splitters. Can anyone recommend a a good welding machine. I am intending on getting an engine driven one off ebay if the price is right.
> 
> I just need more basic information like what amp rating is good, and stuff like that.. Im leaning toward a lincoln SA200



If your looking for a portable unit I will suggest the Lincoln Ranger 8 or 9, the 8 is a more basic welder generator and the 9 is more flexible for different welding processes(mig,stick,tig) AC tig really not recomended, the high freq. box is a must and is very expensive and they don't perform that well compared to a design specific tig. But it sounds like you are more interested in a stick unit. I'm not sure of you rcapabilities as a welder but I think a guy should be proficient in stick welding before mig welding, not that mig is harder but you gain a lot of necessary skills from stick welding that gives a broader understanding of mig welding, plus it's cheaper to learn on, less consumables (gas, wire + machine cost) 
I think a 200-250 amp machine is a nice setup gives you lots of flexibility. I'm not familiar with the SA200 but Lincoln makes nice equipment. I had a Ranger9 Lincoln that was a great machine, I also had a LN25 wirefeeder with it that welded like a 3 phase unit, I just didn't use it enough to keep it. I think they can be picked up at a reasonable rate now.


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## bigden (Feb 16, 2009)

*sa200*

I've owned a welding company for 20 years and have welded that long as well. the sa 200 is a dc machine only,and if is an older machine it will not give you ac power to use as a generator to power any ac power stuff. like a grinder or power outage like the newer ones. on the good side if the gen and brushes are still good it is one of the best dc machines to stick weld with.they run at 1800 rpm unlike the ranger machines that are 3600 rpm machines and where out faster. also there are a lot of stress on a splitter 20 tons right.so 7018 1/8 is the best run dc reverse polarity only stay away from ac machine please in this application. MiG is OK but completely different machine.
if you do not have much time under a hood and are not certified i would not attempt to weld a wood splitter. maybe a hole in an exhaust pipe but i wood not do that with an sa200 maybe a MiG machine.so buy the sa 200 buy a lot of steel and buy a 50 pound box of rod 7018 and go to town on some scrap steel to learn to weld. good luck


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## John D (Feb 16, 2009)

You need a lot of current,cleaning/prep,and 7018 to build a good splitter. Dont underestimate the power of wood,and a 4-5" hydraulic cylinder at 3000PSI. If not designed,braced ,and welded right,you will twist it right up first time you hit a knot. I have an older Hobart 10KW Onan/260amp AC/DC arc welder,and it worked great for building my splitter.My 225 amp Lincoln 230V machine wasnt quite enough,I had to listen to my Onan scream on the Hobart,but I got better welds esp DC w 7018.


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## AIM (Feb 16, 2009)

The welder you buy is up to you. If you like the color it must be OK. I for one would stick with Miller/Hobart or Lincoln. 225 amp plus should be a must. I'm not sure what engine options are out there right now. My Lincoln had a B&S on it that revved up to slow so I just ran it on high idle all the time. I ran a Miller big 40 for a couple years that revved up and down while welding and you could see it in the weld. Like cars they are all good and all bad. Each one has it's problems so just grab one and learn it.
As for the splitter. 
Weld your unit together and reweld it when it breaks. I'm just sayin that's how you learn. So a weld breaks... Big deal.... Reweld and move on...
Welding 2 static plates together is fun but welding something under stress is way better. My weld failures taught me way more than my weld successes.

(No I can't weld with the quality of the pipe guys but I've burned a rod or two.)


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## injun joe (Feb 17, 2009)

well i dont know how much weling you do or want to do but contrary to what most people wil tell you the 220 ac welder from home depot works fine thats what i learned on aws welds can be made with it.


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## ktm250rider (Feb 17, 2009)

Hmmm, would a lincoln SP-135T be enough? I never gave the welder any thought. Its been enough for the stuff Ive done, not sure about the splitter now.


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## Richard_ (Feb 17, 2009)

ktm250rider said:


> Hmmm, would a lincoln SP-135T be enough? I never gave the welder any thought. Its been enough for the stuff Ive done, not sure about the splitter now.



I've got a 140 and wouldn't trust it on something like a splitter , splitters exert a lot of energy , and a bad weld would go off like a bomb


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## John D (Feb 17, 2009)

ktm250rider said:


> Hmmm, would a lincoln SP-135T be enough? I never gave the welder any thought. Its been enough for the stuff Ive done, not sure about the splitter now.



You wont be able to get adequete penetration with 135amps if your welding at or over 3/16",IMO.Second problem is the 20% duty cycle.You need a 230V machine at the minimum.That Lincoln is great or exhaust,sheet metsl work,autobody,etc.Not welding thick metal like splitters.


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## SWI Don (Feb 17, 2009)

All the blue and red and gray and white. All great machines. My personal stable is Green (now yellow). My splitter was welded via a Linde (now ESAB) 250HF TIG welder. I TIGed (GTAW) everything under 1/2" and sticked (GMAW) every thing over. All of the critical welds were 7018/7014. 

I now also have an Ltec (still green) Migmaster 250 that I have used on some of the newer additions. 

Learning to stick weld first is the best think to do in my opinion. For one thing it is about the most versitile welder you can get aside from a TIG welder with are almost all great stick welders also. You can make crappy looking welds that hold well with stick vs nice looking mig welds that don't. 

Mig welding is fast - that is why it exists - high deposition rates. I wouldn't even think about a 120v mig for log splitter fabrication. If mig is what you want then get a 250 amp class mig and a roll of .045 wire and start practicing on some heavy sections. 

As far as a engine drive, I understand the SA200 is one of the finest dc welders out there but it has no AC generation. If you have ever wondered how come some of the power tools are rated AC/DC, that is why, so they can be run from the outlets on a DC only welder. I would personally take the advice of the others here and look at a newer 10-12Kw AC/DC welder that could be a backup generator also. That is my next welder. Sometimes you can buy a decent used welder generator for not much more than just the genset (new).

Don


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## timberwolf (Feb 18, 2009)

It has been said, but though the mig is attractive in terms of ease of use and cost it is not in general the ticket for joining materials over 1/4 to 5/16 of an inch.

MIG welders over 200-250 amps can do it, but not the general <$500 hobby units. Forget 110 volt all together.

The trouble with MIG is it's too easy to put down a good looking bead that has near zero strength. At least with arc if you get a good looking bead down with curent set where it should be the weld has a high chance of being sound.

That 7018 AC rod does run nice, don't buy 40lb more than you need though, old welding rod is little good esp 7018.

One thing too is think twice befor buying an off shore ebay welder at 1/3 the price. I follow a couple welding forums and there are hundreds of threads on dead and defunked offshore units and major hastles trying to get them fixed, replaced or money back...


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## Scootermsp (Feb 18, 2009)

*Good advice*



gink595 said:


> If your looking for a portable unit I will suggest the Lincoln Ranger 8 or 9, the 8 is a more basic welder generator and the 9 is more flexible for different welding processes(mig,stick,tig) AC tig really not recomended, the high freq. box is a must and is very expensive and they don't perform that well compared to a design specific tig. But it sounds like you are more interested in a stick unit. I'm not sure of you rcapabilities as a welder but I think a guy should be proficient in stick welding before mig welding, not that mig is harder but you gain a lot of necessary skills from stick welding that gives a broader understanding of mig welding, plus it's cheaper to learn on, less consumables (gas, wire + machine cost)
> I think a 200-250 amp machine is a nice setup gives you lots of flexibility. I'm not familiar with the SA200 but Lincoln makes nice equipment. I had a Ranger9 Lincoln that was a great machine, I also had a LN25 wirefeeder with it that welded like a 3 phase unit, I just didn't use it enough to keep it. I think they can be picked up at a reasonable rate now.




I've got a Miller Syncrowave 200 TIG and love it. The best part is the ability to change the lead to a stick holder. If he wants to weld outside he will need to do it stick so the sheilding gas doesn't blow away. For beginners stick is the way to go. MIG will look like snot bubbles. I learned to weld Oxy-Acetylene before TIG. The guy who taught me could TIG 2 pieces of Aluminum foil together without burning through them. I wish I could do that. Check the specs but 6013 might be easier to work with (it's good for 60K PSI)


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## KD57 (Feb 18, 2009)

If you are not experienced in welding, why not have the end plate and hyd. mount plate prepared and welded by someone who knows what they are doing, then the rest of the welds you can do yourself. 
The above mentioned plates really need to be solid, and that's not just slapping the plate on end of the beam and running a bead around it.


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## tatra805 (Feb 18, 2009)

2 cents already mentioned before

I am home "welding" since i was 6, dont have the pretention to guarantee any of my welds. Never had any schooling as such and going from the OT first post i would strongly recommend to postpone the project for a year and get some practice first 

or.. 

find someone who can weld your splitters critical parts together while you are there. Take your welding hood and watch how he is welding. Maybe you'll have to pay him for his labour but that money should be worth it.

You will accelerate your learning a lot.

If you want to buy a welder i would advise you to find a small pro shop with the old guy behind the counter and have a long talk with him. 
Most of the time you will find they appreciate a motivated novice much more than a regular shopper that has no clue.

I made a couple of good deals by going for second hand PRO machinery. The welding shop knows which customers are due to replace their equipment and it might actually help them getting a deal when they know they can take over the old equipment and have a customer for it.

give and take, win-win for both

Stay away from all these cheap welders. IF you are serious about it you will in short time destroy or in best case outgrow them and face a next investment. Add the amount to get a decent toy immediately. (resale value will also be better in case you find out it is not your type of game)

I do agree with the stick versus MIG argumentation in this situation.
MIG can be used and should be as good as stick but a home user will never be able to tell if his MIG welds actually are.

Destructive re-engineering is a nice thing but breaking things at splitter pressures is not. If you do it, do it right the first time.

 

You might want to post your question at eg the welding web dot com site.


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## timberwolf (Feb 18, 2009)

> For beginners stick is the way to go. MIG will look like snot bubbles.


 Agree on everything else, but just from personal experience I found making nice looking MIG welds to be an easy learning curve compared to stick or TIG. Trouble though was making good looking MIG welds strong. Sure might be easier to do it with 6013 and that could be plenty strong, but if skills are such that 7018 is hard to run then welding with 6013 might be a bit sketchy too, a good sign a little more hood time is needed first. 

what ever the welder, what ever the method likely the two most important factors are going to be:

Proper design, use good structural design to take load off welds and maximize the strength of critical welds.

Proper fit up so welds have full penetration and fusion to base metals.

Do a bunch of practice on scraps first, will pay off in the end when working with good material.


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## r0858 (Feb 18, 2009)

*Welding Opinions*

WelI I am a beginner, ther reason Id like to weld my own is id rather not pay someone 40-50 dollars an hour for something I can do myself. Building two heavy duty splitters, I was out of 1800 dollars in welding,, and that was paying someone on the side.. at that rate I really could have purchased a nice welder and did the work myself.. im not slow, ive done mechanical work for a living in the past..if i have to ill take a welding class.. it still beats paying someone.. im just unsure of what machine to buy and how much current I need.. absolutely I will be doing stick welding to start, and branching off from there[





QUOTE=Scootermsp;1392157]I've got a Miller Syncrowave 200 TIG and love it. The best part is the ability to change the lead to a stick holder. If he wants to weld outside he will need to do it stick so the sheilding gas doesn't blow away. For beginners stick is the way to go. MIG will look like snot bubbles. I learned to weld Oxy-Acetylene before TIG. The guy who taught me could TIG 2 pieces of Aluminum foil together without burning through them. I wish I could do that. Check the specs but 6013 might be easier to work with (it's good for 60K PSI)[/QUOTE]


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## KD57 (Feb 18, 2009)

timberwolf said:


> Agree on everything else, but just from personal experience I found making nice looking MIG welds to be an easy learning curve compared to stick or TIG. Trouble though was making good looking MIG welds strong. Sure might be easier to do it with 6013 and that could be plenty strong, but if skills are such that 7018 is hard to run then welding with 6013 might be a bit sketchy too, a good sign a little more hood time is needed first.
> 
> what ever the welder, what ever the method likely the two most important factors are going to be:
> 
> ...



Good point. Don't try to learn to weld w/ a 7018. Start off learning w/ a tack rod, such as 6011, or even a 7014, which is good for flat welding. MIG is fast and easy, but harder for a beginner to know if he has the proper penetration. Learn stick first, then MIG will come naturally. My MIG setup is a 400 amp Miller, running .045 wire, and it gets the job done on the big stuff, for everything else I run an old Dial-Arc 250 amp, and also have a small MIG for gauge metal. Stay away from the cheap crackerboxes, unless you are only welding up the deck on your mower. Serious welding requires a serious machine. Invest in a good welder, and it will last for years.


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## gink595 (Feb 18, 2009)

Scootermsp said:


> Check the specs but *6013* might be easier to work with (it's good for 60K PSI)



6013 has no buisness being used in a splitter or any other type of real strutural need, it's a sheetmetal rod, low penetration. Leaves nice welds for apperance. I would either go with 6010/6011 or 7018 and try to rotate so you are always welding flat and leave position welding only if you have to.


For reference:

_Use 6010 for DC, 6011 for AC or DC. 6013 can also be used for DC or AC but it has less penetration than 6010 and delivers a better appearing weld. Use 6013 on lighter sheet metal and use 7018 low-hydrogen rods, (low-hy), for almost any use. Use 7024 for higher depositions in flat or horizontal positions. 

6010 welding rods penetrate deeply but have high spatter. They are good for all positions, all types of steel, and almost any conditions and use DC current. (For better penetration on thicker steel over 3/8," bevel the edges and create a gap of about 1/8" wide; use 6010 for tack up and a root pass and weld the remaining passes and the "cap pass" with 7018.) 6010 welding rods need to be stored in a dry location, at room temperature, and in a sealed container.
6011 welding rods have all the characteristics of 6010, are used in all positions with AC or DC current, and work well on all types of regular or mild steel. 
6013 has all the characteristics of 6010 but can be used with AC or DC current; it has less penetration and delivers a better-looking weld. Use 6013 on light sheet metal up to 3/16." 

Use 7018 low-hy, low penetration, on all positions, with AC or DC current. Use the highest amp setting as practical. Use a straightforward "drag" progression with a "short arc." The low moisture make-up of this welding rod reduces chemical reactions in the weld itself and makes for the highest quality x-ray perfect welds. (Note - this electrode must be kept dry. If it's exposed to humid air or gets damp it must be dried in a rod oven before use. See Welding Rods Storage chart.) 

Use 7024 high deposition welding rods for flat and horizontal positions. It's "easy" to use because its thick flux automatically maintains the correct arc length, which allows you to "drag" the rod._


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## John D (Feb 18, 2009)

gink,I was thinking the same thing, 6013 isnt going to penetrate,but sure looks great! 

I find e6011 the best all around rod for mild steel welding where high strenth is not critical.For the hitches,splitters,and heavy duty stuff,its 7018 all the way.It isnt as easy to weld with,esp for beginners,and it requires more prep,and a better welder,but the penetration and strength are there.


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## tatra805 (Feb 18, 2009)

Dont want to go into an argue about the 6013 rod. It was intended as a sheet metal rod and works as such BUT also more than that.
Yes the 7018 has better properties.

6013 is my general purpose rod and for a beginner might help to get the handling much faster. 7018 can be a pain and needs much better skills and preparation but makes stronger welds.

For structural welding i do use both in combination for multi pass welds. Lot of discussion to be made about it and i think this is not the right place for it but i would not send a novice in the woods with a 7018 as first rod. Slack inclusion can be a bad as a weak MIG weld... etc











Regarding penetration, make sure your welder has the juice in it and you will penetrate equally with both rods, just using different settings for each.
I noticed that it makes a big difference in appreciation of these rods between a 220/380 based weldor (eg europe) and a 110/220 (eg US) based weldor.


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## timberwolf (Feb 18, 2009)

6013 could be made to work, agree it's not the right rod for the job though. Just grind the bevels a bit more and mabe run 5 passes instead of 3. Would be nice for filling up the support webs on the blade ect.

Even 60,000 psi rod may well top the strength of the mild steel base metal anyways. So as long as the weld was done to provide full penetration, complete fusion and no inclusions the weld will be plenty strong no matter the rod selected. You may need a bigger fillet on a T joint to get the same strength, more grinding, chipping and passes but strength wise can't see why it could not be done with 6013 for example.

Now done right with 7018 and having the slag peal up and off like a snake skin after running a bead, yah thats the way to do it.


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## Moss Man (Feb 18, 2009)

I have a Lincoln Ranger 8, it has never let me down. It has 8000 watts also, I use it for a generator when the power goes out.


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## tatra805 (Feb 18, 2009)

Timberwolf,

snakes, ...exactly! 

My point being that i rather have a novice make a good 6013 weld than a bad 7018. not talking optics here. The flux behaviour of the 6013 makes it almost impossible to have inclusions (fast freeze) while with the 7018 itself is prone to have inclusions. 

I'd rather stand behind a good 60000psi welded splitter than a bad 70000psi welded one.

Now just to tinker about, commercial units are tested? Saw a lot of welds cracking on a lot of equipment lately...
I know a lot of technical schools making parts for commercially sold machinery as practice lessons. How good are these welds?


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## KD57 (Feb 18, 2009)

tatra805 said:


> Timberwolf,
> 
> Now just to tinker about, commercial units are tested? Saw a lot of welds cracking on a lot of equipment lately...
> I know a lot of technical schools making parts for commercially sold machinery as practice lessons. How good are these welds?



Probably because most are MIG welded? And a bad MIG weld can look like a good one? Isn't most all equipment MIG welded these days? Stick has pretty much gone to field work only.


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## gink595 (Feb 18, 2009)

*6013 or 6011?*

I'd use 6010/6011 before I'd use 6013, 6011 is a farmer rod you can weld any kind of crap with it, rust, paint hyd. oil you name it. It has a high penetrtaion lots of splatter and the puddle freezes quickly, very good for position welding. Welds aren't very pleasing to the eye takes some practice to get very uniform welds.

Sure you could bevel and stack welds(It's fun with mig) but why waste the time and material if you can with something else. 7018 isn't that bad to weld with, it's a no-no with vert. down welds so you have to weld up, a little harder and takes practice, weave bead.


Here is my splitter with mig and beveled and muti-pass welds.
















Here is a splice in the beam with a Complete Joint penetration weld, bevel one side fill it with weld and back gouge the back side out and fill with weld. The joint is then a sound weld.


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## Metals406 (Feb 18, 2009)

gink595 said:


> 6013 has no buisness being used in a splitter or any other type of real strutural need, it's a sheetmetal rod, low penetration. Leaves nice welds for apperance. I would either go with 6010/6011 or 7018 and try to rotate so you are always welding flat and leave position welding only if you have to.
> 
> 
> For reference:
> ...



Yup, if you go stick... Do a good 6011 root pass, and cover with 7018. 6011 looks like Fido's ass for bead appearance, but it's a good deep pen. rod.

I've done some really strong structural single pass, and multi-pass welds with my little Lincoln 140 amp machine. I use flux-core wire, and weld vertical-uphill to capitalize on the heat. Flux core wire has stick, fast-freeze characteristics.

When a welder is rated, it's for single pass. It's a general rule that 1 amp does .001" in thickness... Keeping in mind that's flat. If you do a PJP, or DB on your stock... you can make a really strong weld with a 140 amp machine. The trick on making a strong structural weld with a little machine--on thick material is: Joint preparation, vert-uphill, and a good pre-heat. Pre-heating is a welders best 'cheat' in welding.


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## Metals406 (Feb 18, 2009)

Gink, I'd have to look again, but I think a guy can get away with 20° or 25° downhill with 7018... And have it be a passable weld. Obviously for thinner stock... Staying ahead of the puddle so it doesn't run-out.

Also, I think we've all seen the 'farmer Johnny' welds that are 60+ years old, on a farm implement. The welds look like a chicken took a big dump on the steel--yet it's held for all those years?

Also, look under your truck at the DOT welds that 'pass'... Scary looking things! A lot of factors go into a strong weld, and most of it isn't something you can check after the fact visually.

I did some structural welds on a job, that were fixies. The 'Union' welder couldn't do a "Chinese Vert" to save his life. It was my job to go burn out his welds, and make a pretty cap. Would his ugly welds have been strong enough? Probably would have been fine... But the contractor needed to pass a 'visual' inspection.


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## KD57 (Feb 18, 2009)

You can get away w/ a 20 degree downhill on a 7018, but not much more, it's too hard to stay ahead of the puddle, and doesn't have much strength. Uphill is good tho. Downhill really isn't good for anything but maybe to put a nice cap on an otherwise cobby looking uphill. Works OK on thin stuff. That's why the 6011 is a good junk rod, you can really control the puddle, since it freezes so fast. And will weld anything, thats why it's the ultimate "farmers rod" lol. Welding flat, the 7024 or 7014 is a nice rod.


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## Metals406 (Feb 18, 2009)

KD57 said:


> You can get away w/ a 20 degree downhill on a 7018, but not much more, it's too hard to stay ahead of the puddle, and doesn't have much strength. Uphill is good tho. Downhill really isn't good for anything but maybe to put a nice cap on an otherwise cobby looking uphill. Works OK on thin stuff. That's why the 6011 is a good junk rod, you can really control the puddle, since it freezes so fast. And will weld anything, thats why it's the ultimate "farmers rod" lol. Welding flat, the 7024 or 7014 is a nice rod.



Yup, that's what I was saying... I'm friends with a pipe welder, that can weld sheet metal all day long with 1/8" 7018. He's a really good welder, with many years of experience.

He can do things with 7018, that I can't do...


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## gink595 (Feb 18, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Gink, I'd have to look again, but I think a guy can get away with 20° or 25° downhill with 7018... And have it be a passable weld. Obviously for thinner stock... Staying ahead of the puddle so it doesn't run-out.
> 
> Also, I think we've all seen the 'farmer Johnny' welds that are 60+ years old, on a farm implement. The welds look like a chicken took a big dump on the steel--yet it's held for all those years?
> 
> ...



Yes quite possible but like you said stay ahead of the flux puddle and trying to locate what your weld is doing!! 20*-25* is 5.5:12 slope so that is a bit generous from ful vert. I avoid vert. down with 7018, I hit the sides of the fillet and stay out of the middle heat and retreat and go like hell!


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## Metals406 (Feb 18, 2009)

gink595 said:


> Yes quite possible but like you said stay ahead of the flux puddle and trying to locate what your weld is doing!! 20*-25* is 5.5:12 slope so that is a bit generous from ful vert. I avoid vert. down with 7018, I hit the sides of the fillet and stay out of the middle heat and retreat and go like hell!



Oh I agree, it's just a good technique to keep in your pocket. I've used it on a trailer, welding thinner material. You can only run the amps down on 1/8" 7018 so far, before it doesn't weld for nuttin'. I was hovering around 90 amps DC, and able to stay ahead of the slag, and get good pen and bead appearance. Welding uphill I would have had burn-through.

Like I said, handy to know for certain instances.


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## fishercat (Feb 18, 2009)

*agreed on the 6013*



tatra805 said:


> Dont want to go into an argue about the 6013 rod. It was intended as a sheet metal rod and works as such BUT also more than that.
> Yes the 7018 has better properties.
> 
> 6013 is my general purpose rod and for a beginner might help to get the handling much faster. 7018 can be a pain and needs much better skills and preparation but makes stronger welds.
> ...



for good structural welds,a combination of the two rods with multiple passes is the way to go.anyone who has been to trained and has worked in structural welding knows this.


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## AIM (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm a huge fan of 6011 for all the reasons everyone has stated. 
I'll admit I'm lazy about grinding torch slag off and doing "PROPER" fit ups. 6011 will just melt all that crap down into the weld doesn't seem to bother it. Plus I'm lazy about grinding off slag prior to multiple passes and 6011 seems to just burn right through it. "farmer rod all the way"
Don't get me wrong though, when it's gotta be done strong and proper, I do it right.
Years back I got ahold of some oddball rod from a shop auction. 10 sticks of this/ 20 of that/ etc. Must have been 20 different rod in the mix. Some yellow stuff. Some red fluxed stuff, and other rod that I had never seen before, all with real odd designations. (I can't remember what the numbers were off hand)
Anyways a guy at the auction told me that some of the rod was SUPER expensive stuff. I played with that stuff off and on for a few years and I gotta say it was COOL stuff. (I just can't remember the brand)
To this day I don't know what any of it was designed to be for, but it was fun to play with.


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## AIM (Feb 18, 2009)

I had to go out and dig through the cabinet and low and behold I found one last stray stick of the red rod.
"Certanium"
This stuff has got to be 15 years old now.


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## chub (Feb 18, 2009)

*welder*

The sae 200 is one of the finest pipe welders out there,however if your looking for a great all around welder with generator posibilities I would recommend the Ranger 9,250, if your a lincoln man. If you like Millers I would go with a trailblazer ,that is what I have ,and love it for what I do. Any of those stick rods will be fine if you prepare the joint correctly[meaning bevel all the joints so you can get full penitration],the 7018 is a grat rod but it is not super high penitrating either. One tip I will give you is dont use the dumb excuse that this rod will burn thru anything, instead do what everone should do and take the time to prepare and clean the weld joints as if you were going to eat off them,this will save you alot of headaches later. I would also stay away from mig, as many have said it is just to easy to make a pretty bead that is superficial. It is hard to beat an old ideal arc 250 for the money if you dont mind using a plug in model. Good luck in selecting a welder ask more questions if we did not answer them. Chub


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## BIG JAKE (Feb 18, 2009)

r0858-Here's a couple of things you can do that might help you gain more knowledge. Find some dealers who sell E.G. Lincoln or Miller. Tell them what you want to weld and they'll show you the units that apply. A dealer near me will actually let you weld with certain machines to try them out. In your case that might not tell you alot but the point is you'll boil it down to a class of machines, but most of all listen and learn. Write stuff down. Also, when I started I got a couple of books from Lincoln Electric one called "new lessons in arc welding" and a big fat book called arc welding. Library may have some books also. What you'll find is that welding is quite a science. The books I have show you patterns to use for up and down welds and lots of pictures showing good and bad welds caused by poor technique or good technique also bad welds from not enough amperage or too much, shielding issues, etc. It's all there including formulas and charts for strength ratings in PSI etc, electrode types. When you boil it down to a few models in (insert brand here) then you can look at what's out there second hand. Something that looks new might be a better option but not always-I'd try to find a fairly new rig from I guy that didn't use it much(judgement call). If you can befriend a guy who can really weld take him along to try out prospective machine so you don't get a POS with problems dumped on you. For experience, local steel shops that sheer plate will usually give or sell you "drops" which are small scraps or plate sections left over from sheer cuts for other customers. Get 1/2'' plate or whatever and practice using rods suitable for what you want to do and practice. Maybe trade labor also for some learning time at the weld shop or like you said take a class. I like your thinking though you can buy a machine you'll have for a lifetime with labor you'll save. Lot's to learn and good luck, but I'll reinforce what was said here splitters generate a lot of force be careful and learn so you do it right! Keep us posted.


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## Spotted Owl (Feb 18, 2009)

AC/DC? Whats the bonus to a DC machine? All I have ever used is an ancient red box AC. Dad had one and thats how I learned and now I have one and thats what I use. That old beast is getting older and will probably need replacing soon. Thats why I ask, what does DC do for you that AC doesn't?


Owl


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## 142TN (Feb 18, 2009)

my 2 cent are that unless you are in a production work you do not need a mig. I have been a certified welder for over 10 years and it takes a lot of time to be able to run a mig weld that is as strong as stick. as for tig if you are going to be doing alum or thin stainless that the way to go. but for most welding at home get a stick 250 ac/dc miller or lincoln and just get to welding.


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## fishercat (Feb 18, 2009)

*i prefer DC.*

much better to weld with when you grasp it.biggest thing people who are new to DC is starting the burn.just takes a little practice.

the two most important things to make you a better welder are getting comfortable and an auto darkening helmet.you get what you pay for with the latter.the more you spend,usually the better you get.used ones can be had reasonable.you only have one set of eyes and screwing around with a POS sheild will only aggrivate you and waste precious time you could be using to become a better welder.


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## r0858 (Feb 18, 2009)

*Thanx for the tips big jake*

Thanx big jake and to the rest of you guys. I planned to buy this linconl sa200 from a friend for about 1200 bucks, its in good shape and he needs the money right now. So the price is the reason I was leaning toward it.

I have been looking around on ebay and crags list, havent seen much that i could get in that range. I would like a good all around welder if i could get one
reasonably. 

most of my log splitter parts i used to get off ebay, but for somepeople run the price of the stuff (2 sage pumps, cylinders, honda motors) to almost retail prices and defeats the purpose of buying it there..

thanx for all the advice..im printing all these threds out, reading and re-reading b4 i make my purchase, keep them coming.. Thanks!



BIG JAKE said:


> r0858-Here's a couple of things you can do that might help you gain more knowledge. Find some dealers who sell E.G. Lincoln or Miller. Tell them what you want to weld and they'll show you the units that apply. A dealer near me will actually let you weld with certain machines to try them out. In your case that might not tell you alot but the point is you'll boil it down to a class of machines, but most of all listen and learn. Write stuff down. Also, when I started I got a couple of books from Lincoln Electric one called "new lessons in arc welding" and a big fat book called arc welding. Library may have some books also. What you'll find is that welding is quite a science. The books I have show you patterns to use for up and down welds and lots of pictures showing good and bad welds caused by poor technique or good technique also bad welds from not enough amperage or too much, shielding issues, etc. It's all there including formulas and charts for strength ratings in PSI etc, electrode types. When you boil it down to a few models in (insert brand here) then you can look at what's out there second hand. Something that looks new might be a better option but not always-I'd try to find a fairly new rig from I guy that didn't use it much(judgement call). If you can befriend a guy who can really weld take him along to try out prospective machine so you don't get a POS with problems dumped on you. For experience, local steel shops that sheer plate will usually give or sell you "drops" which are small scraps or plate sections left over from sheer cuts for other customers. Get 1/2'' plate or whatever and practice using rods suitable for what you want to do and practice. Maybe trade labor also for some learning time at the weld shop or like you said take a class. I like your thinking though you can buy a machine you'll have for a lifetime with labor you'll save. Lot's to learn and good luck, but I'll reinforce what was said here splitters generate a lot of force be careful and learn so you do it right! Keep us posted.


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## r0858 (Feb 18, 2009)

thanx these are some very good tips, do u think 1200 is too much for a lincoln sa200.. just trying to stretch my dollars



chub said:


> The sae 200 is one of the finest pipe welders out there,however if your looking for a great all around welder with generator posibilities I would recommend the Ranger 9,250, if your a lincoln man. If you like Millers I would go with a trailblazer ,that is what I have ,and love it for what I do. Any of those stick rods will be fine if you prepare the joint correctly[meaning bevel all the joints so you can get full penitration],the 7018 is a grat rod but it is not super high penitrating either. One tip I will give you is dont use the dumb excuse that this rod will burn thru anything, instead do what everone should do and take the time to prepare and clean the weld joints as if you were going to eat off them,this will save you alot of headaches later. I would also stay away from mig, as many have said it is just to easy to make a pretty bead that is superficial. It is hard to beat an old ideal arc 250 for the money if you dont mind using a plug in model. Good luck in selecting a welder ask more questions if we did not answer them. Chub


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## John D (Feb 18, 2009)

AIM said:


> I had to go out and dig through the cabinet and low and behold I found one last stray stick of the red rod.
> "Certanium"
> This stuff has got to be 15 years old now.



I used to buy certanium,it was incredible stuff! I still have the cabinet it came in,not sure if the company still exists.Business is to slow to pay that much for welding rods now. The slag would pop off by itself,after a pass.


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## AIM (Feb 18, 2009)

According to the internet they are still out there makin rod. They have some 120,000 stuff etc. 
I've never welded anything requiring that sort of strength but it sure was fun to play with.

BTW... Any of you welders ever hard surface dozer tracks. That right there is boredom at it's finest!!!
I worked for a decent sized construction company for about 8 years and for about the last three winters I had to do tracks, buckets, etc. 
I didn't REALLY know the science behind it so they would just mark them out and hand me the rod and say weld it...
6 zillion rods later I was done..

I gotta think it's all done with a wire welder now.


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## Scootermsp (Feb 18, 2009)

*Night School*

I found a local tech school that had a night school welding program. It was tue-thur nights for 7 weeks in the Fall a couple years ago. It was well worth the money and I use knowledge aquired at the school everyday in my job....I inspect lots of welds on Cargo tanks.
Also like chainsawing personal protective equip is essential. Invest in a good auto-darkening helmet, wear safety glasses under that helmet (spatter will make it in sometimes, wear earplugs (there are sounds made from welding that you CANNOT hear, but will absolutely devastate your hearing), LONG sleeves, Welding gloves, Button up shirt, ALL COTTON!!!!! If you don't cover every square inch you will have a nice sunburn, Synthetic fabrics will melt and burn YOU underneath. Steel toe leather boots...etc you get the idea


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## Metals406 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have to disagree with most of what is being said about MIG here. It is most definitely used for structural welds, and used for that purpose everyday.

*Lets make some distinctions:* Hardwire (like ER70-6) is plenty strong for most fabrication work, especially when used in conjunction with A-36. A good 75%/25% gas mix is used, or a tri-mix. 

Now, if you want a little more penetration, in shielded gas welding, try the new metal cored wire... Less spatter, and better pen.

Another option is a dual-shield wire. This stuff welds like 7018, but with the speed of wire feed. I've used it on structural jobs, where the weld yield had to be higher than hardwire could provide.

Then we have flux-cored wire... This welding process has really come into it's own in the last few years. It has replaced arc welding in a lot of structural welding applications. It meets most of the weld yield prerequisites for structural building fabrication/erection, and applications like bridges and shipbuilding. Not too long ago, there was a good article in, I think, F&M Magazine about a ship yard in Seattle--and the amount of production and profit they've gained by phasing out of stick, and into wire. I've welded a lot of stuff with flux-cored.

When used in the correct manner, there is absolutely nothing wrong with MIG welding/wire welding... The defense offers Gink's pictures of his splitter as evidence.


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## blackdoggy (Feb 19, 2009)

BUT you must remember MOST not all but MOST of those units are 3 phase and cost several thousand dollars which is out of the league of most common users. So far from what I can tell from this thread the member who started it is on a fairly tight budget and is new to welding both of which counts out mig. If you look at the cost of a new or if possible used 220V machine (not wired for three phase), the cost of a spool of wire, gas, gas lease, and tips your looking at several thousand dollars  . Now with arc welding and a used machine your looking at really the cost of leads, stinger, ground clamp, and welder for less than $2,500 including a tank of fuel and rods. Which could be even less if the guy is throwing in the complete leads and some rods, arc welding seems to be the only option in this case.


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## KD57 (Feb 19, 2009)

We run a bunch of 400 amp MIGS in our shop, flux core wire. It is all structural fabrication, all AWS inspected, w/ near zero failures. A good MIG welder will stomp a stick welder into the ground w/ production rates. No slag clean-up either. Our welders run 120 lbs per day, sometimes more. Stick has its place, and it's not in a high production shop. We use them for tacking only.


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## tatra805 (Feb 19, 2009)

> AC/DC? Whats the bonus to a DC machine? All I have ever used is an ancient red box AC. Dad had one and thats how I learned and now I have one and thats what I use. That old beast is getting older and will probably need replacing soon. Thats why I ask, what does DC do for you that AC doesn't?
> 
> 
> Owl



Owl,

DC welding makes you trigger an arc from-to instead of alternating as in AC.

To explain, 

DC- :current flows from - to +, with the ground clamp being + the arc goes to the workpiece and melts the workpiece more than it melts the rod.
Deep penetration and more weld per rod length.

DC +: rod attached to + , groundclamp to -, arc goes from workpiece to rod, melting the rod faster / more than the workpiece resulting in less penetration and more material deposit. used for thin materials, to avoid warping and heat sensitive combinations (eg 2 metal types with big expansion differences) to avoid internal stress build up.

It in other words gives you a heat direction : to or from rod. whereas the AC just alternates between rod and workpiece and leaves you with less control of the weld. Also voltage and current settings are different for DC and AC welding to get to similar results. 

In the more complex welders (DC exists in both rod and wire welding) you can set timing of AC, dc+, dc- and in automated systems even the switching between the modes (strike arc in ac then switch to dc) etc


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## Metals406 (Feb 19, 2009)

KD57 said:


> We run a bunch of 400 amp MIGS in our shop, flux core wire. It is all structural fabrication, all AWS inspected, w/ near zero failures. A good MIG welder will stomp a stick welder into the ground w/ production rates. No slag clean-up either. Our welders run 120 lbs per day, sometimes more. Stick has its place, and it's not in a high production shop. We use them for tacking only.



Yup... Good exemplar post.


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## timberwolf (Feb 19, 2009)

MIG rules in production and sheet steel, just keep pulling the trigger up, down (non procedure), sideways, no stopping to change rods, no chipping slag.



> Invest in a good auto-darkening helmet



Good point from above, adjustable auto darkening helmet helped my welding more than any other single thing. If you can't see chit, you can't weld it worth chit.

Only problem with mig is it's just too easy. In a couple hours someone can pick up laying down a bead that looks good, but with no clue to the soundness of the weld or what is required technically for the weld joint.


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## chub (Feb 19, 2009)

*sae 200*

If that 200 is in good shape I would say thats a very good deal, Its a great machine I think you will love it.


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## gink595 (Feb 19, 2009)

KD57 said:


> We run a bunch of 400 amp MIGS in our shop, flux core wire. It is all structural fabrication, all AWS inspected, w/ near zero failures. A good MIG welder will stomp a stick welder into the ground w/ production rates. No slag clean-up either. Our welders run 120 lbs per day, sometimes more. Stick has its place, and it's not in a high production shop. We use them for tacking only.



Same here, I work for a pre-engineered metal building manufacturer, everything we have is MIG, submerged arc or sheilded hollow core. Joint prep is most imporatant as is the right wires and sheilding gas mixes.

120lbs a day?? Each welder or combined? When I welded out in the shop each guy would use a 44lb. spool in 8 hrs. but that was .052. I know how much weld that is, we used 400 amp 25-30 volt and 400 IPM was the parameters we had to run.


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## Spotted Owl (Feb 19, 2009)

tatra805 said:


> Owl,
> 
> DC welding makes you trigger an arc from-to instead of alternating as in AC.
> 
> ...




Thanks. Makes alot of sence. 

One more question. I remember Dad and Gramps talking and some other old timers, about DC not working as well on some things, like drags, mower decks, feed rings, hay slides, chutes and other things. They all said that AC would work the best on some things like that. Supposedly, and I have never seen it myself but don't have the time they do/did, they would say that some metal and equipment would blow the rod back out of the weld. Like it would lay in and then just kinda fall back out and not stick at all. Does that make any sence to anyone?


Owl


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## chub (Feb 19, 2009)

That is true when ever there is alot of friction on the metal, like you said a bailer ect. there is a chance of arc blow,another symptom is the weld will want to favor one side of the joint. And you are right switching to ac is the easiest solution.


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## Spotted Owl (Feb 19, 2009)

chub said:


> That is true when ever there is alot of friction on the metal, like you said a bailer ect. there is a chance of arc blow,another symptom is the weld will want to favor one side of the joint. And you are right switching to ac is the easiest solution.




Just talked to Dad and asked him also. He said the same thing. He said that it's kinda like tring to weld magnets.

Thanks


Owl


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## John D (Feb 19, 2009)

Welding a splitter,I used a lot of DC reverse, it really helped get good penetration,esp on some of the thick mounting pieces for the ram,and slide.I had some 3/4" and 1" thich stuff,a lot of time V ing it out,and welding it up with 7018 and 6011 on low stress stuff,preheated some of it as well,the heat was almost unbearable while welding it,but its solid and strong!


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## spankrz (Feb 19, 2009)

fishercat said:


> it's a 220 volt machine.i'm not keen on 110v unless it's your only option.
> 
> i have welded everything from solid axle swaps on toyota trucks to trailer hitches on dump trucks.miller is a good machine as well.



this is a good welder, i have the 180. the entire line-up of lincoln feeders are nice, and i would reccomend them to anyone. no experience with a miller, but i have heard good things about them.


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## fishercat (Feb 19, 2009)

*yeah,i like it a lot.*



spankrz said:


> this is a good welder, i have the 180. the entire line-up of lincoln feeders are nice, and i would reccomend them to anyone. no experience with a miller, but i have heard good things about them.



as a matter of fact,i am welding up a Kia Sportage frame tonight.no it's not mine and no i would not recommend them to anyone.what a POS.


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## topofthehil (Feb 20, 2009)

*a couple of things*

there was mention of 60,000 (6013) vs 70,000 (7018) and that a good 6013 is better than a not so good 7018.
well, maybe and maybe not. 
the first two digits are the tensile strength. 
this is not such a big factor when the steel you are welding has a tensile strength of not more than 42,000.
they are both over kill when it comes to tensile strength.
something more important to look at is the impact strength and dynamic vs static loading.
7018 has much better properties in cold conditions than S-3 or S-6 solid wire or 6010, 6011, or 6013 stick.
it performs better on the critical moving parts such as the ram, guides and wedges.
also, my two cents on a couple of other comments.
unless you have an open root joint, there is no need to use a 6010 root and cover with 7018.
weld it all up with 7018 and be done with it.
if you can, use gas shielded FCAW ... not self shielded FCAW.
it costs more, but you get much better welds.
Garn uses Hobart Fabco 71 to weld their boilers.
it costs them more to do so, but the welds are far superior to their competitors solid wire welded boilers.
no cold lap welds in their boilers.


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## loghog (Feb 21, 2009)

*6011 electrodes*

the 6011 rods are a fast freeze rod and are not ment to be used on high strength welds.7018 all the way


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## Crazee Canuck (Feb 21, 2009)

7018 

try using a 3/32 Dia rod when out of position, smaller puddle easier to control.

weld asmuch flat as you can. 7018 generally needs lots of heat so don't be scared of running hot and fast.

practice makes good welders, no other way to learn than to burn rod, if you bought your machine from a friend make him include some lessons.

ask around i am sure someone would come over for beers and show you a few things. even if you had to pay someone.

a welding course is a good idea.


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## loghog (Feb 22, 2009)

*wood splitter wedges*

I have built 4 splitters and repaired several more.the best steel that i have found for wedges is AR- 400 hard plate.it is super tough and it's bending strength is 2 to 3 times more than mild steel,and it welds real well with7018 rods


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## KD57 (Feb 23, 2009)

gink595 said:


> 120lbs a day?? Each welder or combined?



Combined, 3 welders, normal day. We did build some huge trusses several years ago and I myself put on a 66# spool at 5am, changed it out by noon, then ran almost all of the second one by 4pm. Now thats what you call keeping the hood down. lol. We were doing some huge full pen welds, back-gouging, and they were on beams w/ 1" flanges. I would weld for a solid hour and never take a step.


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