# MS461 Giveaway Saw Build Thread



## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Here we go guys. Today I will be porting the MS461 that we will giveaway in the next T-Bone donation event.





I'll be adding to this thread over the course of the day as I take it apart and modify it.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 10, 2013)

Sweet...


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Uploading some pics now.....


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## gr8mac (Nov 10, 2013)

Nice!!!!


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## rburg (Nov 10, 2013)

Hooray!


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## Adam Smith (Nov 10, 2013)

Is this a raffle that anyone can get into off this site or do you have to be present at an event to win?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

The HD2 air filter is great......I do wish they would have used the air injection that they used on the 441 on this saw though. 





Looks like a 460 here huh?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Adam Smith said:


> Is this a raffle that anyone can get into off this site or do you have to be present at an event to win?



Anyone can enter Adam. Brad Snelling will fire up a donation thread soon......and he will handle the donations, and the drawing. I will ship the saw, bar, and chain to the winner at no cost to them.


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## Adam Smith (Nov 10, 2013)

God Bless all you guys for helping a fellow out when in need. I will be watching, And will participate when it gets started. Thanks


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Let's tear into this thing. 









Please excuse my rough looking appearance, I'm growing my winter beard and am in that grungy looking mid point stage. 









Please ask any questions you want, no matter how elementary you may think they are.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)




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## ernurse (Nov 10, 2013)

I like the wasabe covered pea can. No worries about the scruff...it's "no shave November" to bring attention to prostate cancer.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)




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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

ernurse said:


> I like the wasabe covered pea can. No worries about the scruff...it's "no shave November" to bring attention to prostate cancer.



I love those damn things.........like crack to an addict.


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## Saw Dr. (Nov 10, 2013)

Hey Randy, did you guys ever get the real word on the deflector between the cases? I asked about that in school, and got the skinny.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now, we start getting to mods. First thing I do is defeat the carb limiters.





The tool I'm using here is just an old #1 Phillips screwdriver with a drywall screw brazed to the end of it. 









Trimming the tab off....





Reinstalling the limiter caps. It's easier to "find" the adjustment screws with the saw running with these in place.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> Hey Randy, did you guys ever get the real word on the deflector between the cases? I asked about that in school, and got the skinny.



Not really......spill the beans man.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now moving on to the the coil and timing mods. 









Here I'm popping the wire off using the blade of a screwdriver rather than pulling it off. Many times, the spade connector can be damaged by pulling it off. 









I use a double ended, threaded flywheel puller on most Stihl saws. It's just a cheap Moped tool from ebay. 





Pop......and she's off.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

I'm removing .020 from the edge of the key.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

I'll be working on my next set of pics now......laterz.


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## Magnumitis (Nov 10, 2013)

waiting to see how you do the muffler mod. stock deflector?


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## redfin (Nov 10, 2013)

I like your work space. Nice and tidy. 

Thank you, and to Brad for stepping up to help a member. I belong to a few other online communities but none other compare to the comradere shared here. I wish I could contribute more to the forum with knowledge, but I am just learning the ways of the oil burners.

Thanks again.


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## Saw Dr. (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Not really......spill the beans man.



The 461 is Stihl's first use of a new idea they call "delayed scavenge." The transfers open when there is still a tad of pressure above the piston, and allow exhaust to start to backfill the transfers. Like a Strato engine, the incoming charge is preceeded by using something other than fuel to purge the chamber. In this case it is exhaust from the previous combustion event. When they did this, obviously they discovered temperature of the transfers is much hotter (since there is hot exhaust in there now.) Well this means more heat adjacent to the wrist pin in the cylinder, and consequently more heat there. Supposedly they were getting a strong running saw for a short time, and then the wrist pin bearing would fail. That little deflector is to splash cool fuel on the underside of the piston and give the pin bearing a fighting chance. Of course, it also takes up space and acts as a crank stuffer. They say it will run fine without the deflector in there, but the pin bearings will probably fail within MINUTES(!!!) YMMV. Have you tried one without the deflector yet?


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## LowVolt (Nov 10, 2013)

A new and improved AS and now randy has action shots! Sweet!

Great job Randy. Can't wait to see the before and after vids!


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> The 461 is Stihl's first use of a new idea they call "delayed scavenge." The transfers open when there is still a tad of pressure above the piston, and allow exhaust to start to backfill the transfers. Like a Strato engine, the incoming charge is preceeded by using something other than fuel to purge the chamber. In this case it is exhaust from the previous combustion event. When they did this, obviously they discovered temperature of the transfers is much hotter (since there is hot exhaust in there now.) Well this means more heat adjacent to the wrist pin in the cylinder, and consequently more heat there. Supposedly they were getting a strong running saw for a short time, and then the wrist pin bearing would fail. That little deflector is to splash cool fuel on the underside of the piston and give the pin bearing a fighting chance. Of course, it also takes up space and acts as a crank stuffer. They say it will run fine without the deflector in there, but the pin bearings will probably fail within MINUTES(!!!) YMMV. Have you tried one without the deflector yet?



The timing numbers I'm seeing are in contradiction with what they are telling you here Tim. The transfer ports on this engine are far lower than a 044 or 066 even. Now that baffle in the muffler could cause enough back pressure to stuff the exhaust down the transfers.....

I did start one, and make two cuts without that baffle.....I saw no difference in the way it ran. I suspected it to be a stuffer of sorts, and trusted that it was a well thought out addition to this design, so I just moved on in my thinking.



LowVolt said:


> A new and improved AS and now randy has action shots! Sweet!
> 
> Great job Randy. Can't wait to see the before and after vids!



No before vids Rory. I've do so many of these that I know exactly how they run stock and modded. No sense in getting it dirty before I tear it down. This saw has never been fueled.


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## redfin (Nov 10, 2013)

I would like to see a picture of the timing key you are removing material from.

I undertand how moving the flywheel advances timing but am just a tad confused how you actually execute this.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

The key is in this set of Vice grips....





Here I'm measuring the thickness of the key





And here I'm filing it down.....





After we eat and get back to the saw I'll explain about how to install the altered key, and be sure that the flywheel stays where it should. 

We've got other saws we're working on too......and test running last weeks jobs to get them ready for shipping. No rest for the weary......


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

redfin said:


> I like your work space. Nice and tidy.
> 
> Thank you, and to Brad for stepping up to help a member. I belong to a few other online communities but none other compare to the comradere shared here. I wish I could contribute more to the forum with knowledge, but I am just learning the ways of the oil burners.
> 
> Thanks again.




It's not always tidy. We just have 200 sq ft, and do a bunch of work here.......it's has to be somewhat organized or it becomes a nightmare......

AS hosts a great group of guys for sure.......but it has more to do with the sort of people we all are than the place itself. I'm not saying AS ain't great......just that it's the members that make the forum what it is. When the last T-Bone donation was going down, we had many donations from guys on other forums as well as what came from AS members. There are great people on other forums too. That's one reason I've never made it any kind of a secret that I am a member of many different forums, and have made some great friends on them all. The working man understands hardship, and that bonds us in a way few ever get the chance to experience.


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## wap13 (Nov 10, 2013)

Been looking for this thread for a while. Glad you are finally getting started on it and in turn the next round of donations.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 10, 2013)

Adam Smith said:


> Is this a raffle that anyone can get into off this site or do you have to be present at an event to win?



You have to either kiss Hillary Clinton on the lips or kill a wild boar weighing over 400 pounds with a spear to be eligible to win.


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## o8f150 (Nov 10, 2013)

guess I need to go work the corner again


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## o8f150 (Nov 10, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> You have to either kiss Hillary Clinton on the lips or kill a wild boar weighing over 400 pounds with a spear to be eligible to win.


 that ain't no problem,,,, I would French kiss her then hump the wild boar for that saw


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## fastLeo151 (Nov 10, 2013)

Guys you all better get in on the donations, I have a mastermind built 461 and its a torque monster. I'm actually starting to like it more than my mastermind built 460.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Coils.....

The MS461 is rev limited to 13,500. To make the saw unlimited I use either a 460, or 660 coil. On this saw, I have a 660 coil to use. 









As you can see in this pic, all three holes don't line up using the 660 coil. On the 460 coil there are only two bolts as well, so I don't worry about this.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Y'all ever ate roasted pumpkin seeds? 





I made these a few nights ago.......damn, they're goooood.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Let me back up just for a second. Here's a shot of the flywheel key.





See how the area I cut is on the right side? That will make the flywheel rotate counter-clockwise further than it was from the factory. I've found that by taking .020 from the key that I get around 6° advance. 

Now here I'm holding the flywheel against the rope I'm using as a stop, then I tighten the flywheel nut as tight as I can while holding it like this.





After it's snugged up to hold the flywheel in place, I rotate the engine to catch the stop in a way that allows me to finish tightening the flywheel.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

fastLeo151 said:


> Guys you all better get in on the donations, I have a mastermind built 461 and its a torque monster. I'm actually starting to like it more than my mastermind built 460.



You're getting a quite a collection of Mastermind saws huh?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Moving on.....













Damn that old tattoo gets uglier every year.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Here's that baffle/stuffer/do-hicky thing Tim and I were discussing. It don't bother me, so I don't bother it.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now we begin to port it.


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## Deleted member 116684 (Nov 10, 2013)

i'm stoked about this thread and all the pics. Thanks!


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## LowVolt (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Y'all ever ate roasted pumpkin seeds?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen brother! They are delicious.


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## fastLeo151 (Nov 10, 2013)

I told my better half they multiply at night when she notices a new one. And the new 261 cm is actually for her.... nice chisel!


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## Eccentric (Nov 10, 2013)

I thought you used a wood rasp and a paring knife to port stuff. Who you tryin' to fool with that precision hammer and chisel nonsense? Obviously a staged photo...


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## redfin (Nov 10, 2013)

See how the area I cut is on the right side? That will make the flywheel rotate counter-clockwise further than it was from the factory. I've find that by taking .020 from the key that I get around 6° advance. 

Now here I'm holding the flywheel against the rope I'm using as a stop, then I tighten the flywheel nut as tight as I can while holding it like this. 

I comprende now. I was thinking that's the way you did it by just taking off the material above the slot in the crank. But I wasn't sure. Thank you.

EDIT: I quoted Randy on the top part of this post.


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## lone wolf (Nov 10, 2013)

Nice pics keep them coming.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Working on setting up for the squish mod now.....


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## blsnelling (Nov 10, 2013)

You made me laugh out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## VinceGU05 (Nov 10, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> You made me laugh out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!



lol and i was WTF! there for a second. haha. nice one randy. awesome detailing with pics too.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> You made me laugh out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!



I'm glad you showed up Mr Snelling. 

I figure you can fire up the donation thread whenever you want to now. Looks like the site is stable.....and I need this saw gone. 

It's making me want one.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now to set up for the squish mod.....

I get a lot of questions about how this is done, so I'll spend some time here.

In this pics is a few of the plates I've made to mount various cylinder on.





This is the one that the 461 jug uses. The hole and divot are there to allow the stud and shroud boss to have clearance.





This is all there is to mounting the jug to the plate......simple really.





Then the plate is mounted in an independently adjustable four jaw chuck, on the lathe. That allows me to center the bore with the spindle.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Another view of the jug mounted.





Here I'm setup with a long reach indicator to check runout.







I made a couple of videos with more detail on the centering process.........if I post them y'all won't make fun of the way I talk will you?


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## ernurse (Nov 10, 2013)

Are the gilardoni jugs as high quality as mahle?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

I think they are as good if not better.


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## RedFir Down (Nov 10, 2013)

Not not at all... carry on!
I would pay money to be able to spend some time with a saw builder like yourself to learn the basic 'how to's' of a woods port! If only I lived closer to some of you guys!!!
I have read a lot, but im a very visual learner!


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

I make pencil marks on the bed to go back to when I move the carriage. Anything to make it easier.....









Here's a shot of indicating the bottom of the jug....





And how that is adjusted.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

RedFir Down said:


> Not not at all... carry on!
> I would pay money to be able to spend some time with a saw builder like yourself to learn the basic 'how to's' of a woods port! If only I lived closer to some of you guys!!!
> I have read a lot, but im a very visual learner!



I've had lots of guys ask about coming over and watching me work.......I'm not that guy. When people show up, the work stops. I hate being watched.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)




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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)




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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

If y'all make fun of my talking I'll kick Thomas1 in the sack.


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## Rudedog (Nov 10, 2013)

Sweet! You make it look easy.


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## fastLeo151 (Nov 10, 2013)

Thats a lot of work, and seems time consuming.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

A video for your enjoyment while I'm cutting this squish band.


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## ernurse (Nov 10, 2013)

Really cool to see what we are getting for our money. So far the best thread on AS in my opinion.


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## jsk (Nov 10, 2013)

Really great to see the build process. Good cause also. I wish I had a builder by me to. All you builders are far from me.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

jsk said:


> Really great to see the build process. Good cause also. I wish I had a builder by me to. All you builders are far from me.



99% of the saws I do arrive via UPS, FedEx, or USPS.


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## redfin (Nov 10, 2013)

Peeking into the head of a Mastermind. Thank you Sir.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Here's the boring bar setup I use. 





Getting some spin on. 









And one with flash......





Done. .040 gone from the quench area.....


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now we check the squish we ended up with, then see how much we want to remove from the base. 

I gotta work on something else for a bit......be back soon.


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## Eccentric (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now we check the squish we ended up with, then see how much we want to remove from the base.
> 
> I gotta work on something else for a bit......be back soon.



Translation:

Randy needs to go take a dump.


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## MarkEagleUSA (Nov 10, 2013)

redfin said:


> Peeking into the head of a Mastermind. Thank you Sir.


In other words... peering into the darkness!


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## labdad (Nov 10, 2013)

Great thread, great tunes but that pea can has got to go! Only vegetable I won't eat!


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## 50blues (Nov 10, 2013)

Keep talking, I'm learning.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Eccentric said:


> Translation:
> 
> Randy needs to go take a dump.



Close........2nd supper.


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## mdavlee (Nov 10, 2013)

A working man's gotta eat


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## Festus (Nov 10, 2013)

This is definitely the best saw building thread I've seen. I too wish I could see a video on every stage of the build. Anyway the lathe work and the porting work. Thanks a lot Randy. I thought I heard Stevie Ray Vaughan on one of those videos. You're a man of fine taste also.


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## Eccentric (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Close........2nd supper.



I figured some part of the consumption/digestion/elimination process was involved...


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## bryanr2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Definately the best/ most in depth build thread we've ever had on AS. -"In Mastermind We Trust!"


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## thomas1 (Nov 10, 2013)

Ever thought about replacing the 2 piece shaft on your indicator, with a single solid piece?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Ever thought about replacing the 2 piece shaft on your indicator, with a single solid piece?



I use the adjustable jointed piece a lot Thomas. It's real handy.


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## thomas1 (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I use the adjustable jointed piece a lot Thomas. It's real handy.


K. Thx. Bye.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Festus said:


> This is definitely the best saw building thread I've seen. I too wish I could see a video on every stage of the build. Anyway the lathe work and the porting work. Thanks a lot Randy. I thought I heard Stevie Ray Vaughan on one of those videos. You're a man of fine taste also.



I saw SRV in Raleigh, NC many years ago.........changed muh life.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> K. Thx. Bye.



Don't go.......

You make life fun.


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## Festus (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I saw SRV in Raleigh, NC many years ago.........changed muh life.



He died here in WI. I had known him a little, but I was just a teenager. It took a couple years for me to fully appreciate him. I envy you. There is something about hearing someone play guitar like that live, that just cuts right to the soul.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I saw SRV in Raleigh, NC many years ago.........changed muh life.



I thought Jenny Craig changed your life?


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## o8f150 (Nov 10, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I thought Jenny Craig changed your life?


 it was really the sheep and thomas1


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## Guido Salvage (Nov 10, 2013)

Great tutorial Randy. Is this the lathe that you picked up at Ernie's?


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## Guido Salvage (Nov 10, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I thought Jenny Craig changed your life?



Actually it was a meeting with the Whendull at a truck stop...


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## Eccentric (Nov 10, 2013)

Nah. It was Liberace who changed his life forever...


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Guido Salvage said:


> Great tutorial Randy. Is this the lathe that you picked up at Ernie's?



No Gary, it was a mill that I picked up at Ernie's. I've not done anything with it yet. 

This lathe, I bought new from Enco. It's a cheap Chinese tool, that needed lots of work to be something that was really worth using. I'm pretty happy with it now though.


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## Festus (Nov 10, 2013)

Ok....I know I shouldn't admit this to you guys....but, I did see Liberace live in Green Bay when I was 15. You see when I was little I asked Mom and Dad if I could learn to play guitar. They didn't care for that idea, but they talked me into keyboard lessons, saying if I didn't like it I could quit. Well, they didn't let me quit until about the time I got my drivers license. They thought seeing Liberace would be good for me. I have to admit, he was a hell of a entertainer. I took my kids to see BB King when they were 15 and 17.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

OK, I see you guys are getting distracted. Back to the saw. 

Getting ready to check squish. I've got a few rolls of .030" soft solder that I picked up on ebay awhile back, that's why I twist this stuff up like this. That and it's real handy to be able to make it any size I need. I should point out here that if your solder is too large it will give you a false reading.....





This bolt holds that flange/stuffer hicky, and it is higher than the case where the jug bolts down. If you try to delete the base gasket on the 461, you must grind the head of these two bolts down about .020".





We now have .065" squish clearance. We'll want to take .040" off the base to end up at .025.


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## mdavlee (Nov 10, 2013)

You done yet?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Here's some of the mandrels I've made to fit different cylinders....





Here you can see that I've changed the chuck to a three jaw, and am using a UHMW mandrel to mount the jug in the lathe. 





Sorry about the blurry picture. 

I use an aluminum plate, with a small hole drilled thru it, between the live center and the top of the jug to allow me to bump the cylinder around when centering it in the lathe. 





Then I set up the dial indicator to read the mandrel as close the the base of the jug as possible. 





Bump....





Bump....til the runout is gone.





Now we are ready to turn the base.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Spin, baby, spin.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now we add a chamfer to the edge of the bore.





Check squish again. Note that I use as thin a piece as I can. 





.025 it is.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Now we set up a degree wheel to check and set port timing. 

I use 1/16" SS tig wire for my pointers. You just need a good place to mount the pointer. 





And this is what we use for a wheel. 





Mounted to the crank with a 1/2" drill chuck. Mike (Homelite410) made me a couple of these .125" thick X 7" aluminum wheels. They work perfect, I just print my wheels to size on heavy card stock, and glue them on with Super 77.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Here what I use for a piston stop. It's just an old spark plug with the insulator removed, and the center tapped for a 3/8" bolt. 





Here's a video showing how to set up the wheel and find TDC using a piston stop.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

And, I'm done for tonight......


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## farrell (Nov 10, 2013)

I miss making chips 

I just push green button now........

Awesome build Randy!


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## Festus (Nov 10, 2013)

Fascinating.


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## chadihman (Nov 10, 2013)

Your the Man Randy! Great work! Three years ago I didn't even know AS. I was just a stock saw firewood guy. Now because of all this type of info I have reworked all my saws. I ported my first saw two years ago. I bought a lathe and started cutting squish band and bases a year ago. I designed and built a chainsaw dyno nine month ago. Thanks for all the great informative threads over the years Randy I and many others really enjoy it.
Would you be interested in dyno testing that 461 against my stock 461? If it blows on the dyno I'll ship you a new one. I could compare that 461 to a stock 460 and a 660 also. I'll pay the shipping both ways and to the winner.


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## half_full (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> If y'all make fun of my talking I'll kick Thomas1 in the sack.



Great thread. Thanks!
But, would it be too much trouble to request a courtesy kick now and then?


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Your the Man Randy! Great work! Three years ago I didn't even know AS. I was just a stock saw firewood guy. Now because of all this type of info I have reworked all my saws. I ported my first saw two years ago. I bought a lathe and started cutting squish band and bases a year ago. I designed and built a chainsaw dyno nine month ago. Thanks for all the great informative threads over the years Randy I and many others really enjoy it.
> Would you be interested in dyno testing that 461 against my stock 461? If it blows on the dyno I'll ship you a new one. I could compare that 461 to a stock 460 and a 660 also. I'll pay the shipping both ways and to the winner.



It's not my saw, so I really don't feel like I can make that call. If the winner is cool with that, then I'll ship it to you, and you can send it on to him.


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## chadihman (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> If y'all make fun of my talking I'll kick Thomas1 in the sack.


 Ha ha you talk funny Randy. Now I want a vid of you kicking Thomas1 in the sack.
My wife is from Reading Mass and my in-laws live in Boston. They really talk funny up there. They think I talk funny too.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

half_full said:


> Great thread. Thanks!
> But, would it be too much trouble to request a courtesy kick now and then?



Who are you wanting kicked? As long as it's Thomas1 or 08F150 I'm cool with it.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Ha ha you talk funny Randy. Now I want a vid of you kicking Thomas1 in the sack.
> My wife is from Reading Mass and my in-laws live in Boston. They really talk funny up there. They think I talk funny too.




I knew it was just a matter of time before someone did it. My brother lives in NYC....he says I talk like a XXXXing hick.


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## chadihman (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I knew it was just a matter of time before someone did it. My brother lives in NYC....he says I talk like a XXXXing hick.


I'd much rather hear you talk all day than listen to that nutty Boston language. Drives me nuts when my wife starts talking like that when were in Boston for a visit.


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## exSW (Nov 10, 2013)

chadihman said:


> I'd much rather hear you talk all day than listen to that nutty Boston language. Drives me nuts when my wife starts talking like that when were in Boston for a visit.


If I win it you can play with it.Now can you swing me a Demo Farmall 140(and I don't mean the one from 1959) One's about as likely to happen as the other.


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## nmurph (Nov 10, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> ...I made a couple of videos with more detail on the centering process.........if I post them y'all won't make fun of the way I talk will you?


 
Your accent would fit right in around here.


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## redfin (Nov 10, 2013)

I get why you would lower the base to increase compression but please explain why you cut the squish band.


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

Magnumitis said:


> waiting to see how you do the muffler mod. stock deflector?



I missed this post......sorry about that. 

I'll remove the baffle in the muffler shell, add a dual port cover, and enlarge both outlets.


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## nmurph (Nov 10, 2013)

nmurph said:


> Your accent would fit right in around here.


 Or should I say, what accent?


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## Nate66n1 (Nov 10, 2013)

Would it be easier to cut the base of the cylinder on a mill?


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## gsrsol84mm (Nov 10, 2013)

Excellent thread, very interesting, Thank You


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## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2013)

redfin said:


> I get why you would lower the base to increase compression but please explain why you cut the squish band.



Have you ever heard of someone having a set of heads shaved on an automobile engine? Cutting the squish band is the same thing. By cutting the area around the combustion chamber, I make the combustion chamber smaller. The smaller chamber raises the compression ratio. On this engine that increases static compression about 40PSI. 



Nate66n1 said:


> Would it be easier to cut the base of the cylinder on a mill?



It would take much longer to set up.......and what if this jug had cylinder extensions? Milling around those would be a pain in the ass.


----------



## Nate66n1 (Nov 10, 2013)

Ok, I never gave the extensions a thought


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## cattoon (Nov 10, 2013)

I know that my ignorance is broad and deep, but I can't quite grasp how removing material from the combustion chamber makes it smaller. I do understand that machining the base will cause a bump in compression. Do you remove material from the combustion chamber area to give clearance/allowance for the base machining?trying not to sound like a complete idiot just trying to wrap my head around the idea. Thank you very much for taking the time to post the pics/process.


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## Adam Smith (Nov 11, 2013)

Good stuff here guys. Hats off to you Randy what your doing is awesome in every way. will stay tuned


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

Ok....check out this drawing.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

I don't know why it ended up sideways.....


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## Oliver1655 (Nov 11, 2013)

I appreciate you taking the extra time to document the mod, explaining the steps & fielding the questions.


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## Yukon Stihl (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I don't know why it ended up sideways.....


I hate it when things go sideways.


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## deye223 (Nov 11, 2013)

gday randy now this is very informative thanks mate ...


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## Big_Wood (Nov 11, 2013)

this is a great thread randy. best build thread i've seen. it must be easier to post pics cause i see your adding more then usual.


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## bezza1 (Nov 11, 2013)

looks good mate i want to send mine over now


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 11, 2013)

Great thread Randy,thanks for your time and efforts.


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## Jimmy in NC (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> If y'all make fun of my talking I'll kick Thomas1 in the sack.



You talk funny? Sound like everyone around here...does that mean we are all talking funny???

Sent from my MiniMac running E-85!!


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## redfin (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Ok....check out this drawing.



I got it now. I was missing the part of combustion chamber. 

Do you factor in the volumn of a tapered band when you mill it flat?


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## lone wolf (Nov 11, 2013)




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## nmurph (Nov 11, 2013)

Randy, are you cutting a taper? 2°??


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

redfin said:


> I got it now. I was missing the part of combustion chamber.
> 
> Do you factor in the volumn of a tapered band when you mill it flat?



I've just had to arrive at the amount I remove from each cylinder by trial and error. I keep very good notes, and have a spec sheet for each engine. 



nmurph said:


> Randy, are you cutting a taper? 2°??



No sir. I cut the squish band flat. I do round the edge where it meets the combustion chamber though.


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## Gologit (Nov 11, 2013)

Good thread.


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## tbone75 (Nov 11, 2013)

Very nice Randy ! I really like all the little details your posting ! Some day I may be able to go a little farther on my porting ? LOL

Thanks again for everything you and everyone else is doing and has done for me !!
It has sure made things easier on me and my wife !


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

I'm just now getting ready for the port work. As guys can see, the way we port a saw is far more involved that just a widening of the ports......


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now we begin to port it.




How dare you copy my techniques.


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## mcginkleschmidt (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I don't know why it ended up sideways.....



Here you go.


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## nmurph (Nov 11, 2013)

Andyshine77 said:


> How dare you copy my techniques.


 That's just to throw you off, he's trying to hide his technique from Brad. He actually uses a sawzall to rough it in and horse rasp to give the ports that mirror finish.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

Now, I'm trying to decide how much I should share on my port work..........I've spent a lot of time learning how to get repeatable results on the port heights.

I'm of the belief that knowing how I do it, and actually doing it yourself is two different things, so I'm just gonna spill all the beans here.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

This is my spec sheet for the MS461....


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

I've got a video uploading......it will be an hour or so before it's done.


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 11, 2013)

Great documentary sir ,very informative


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## Derrick Sawyer (Nov 11, 2013)

Hi Randy (Mastermind),
Great info, i am new to chainsaws, previously worked on cars, though i recently by mistake broke off the nub (integrated key) in the 455 rancher flywheel so it had no key, so i cut off the end of a chainsaw file to use instead (briggs keys too big) and cut a slot in the flywheel, it was a little loose so i gooped it with red threadlocker and put it all back, i might have advanced the timing, by how much who knows, when tightening the flywheel to the right. I was going to sell but now the saw sounds much much better, much like a motorcyle, so i'll probably sell my 026 instead (firewood saw here). Not sure if it cuts better since this was a busted 455 i got cheap and put a used crank and new golf piston in.

Anyway, am i correct in thinking that you advance the "spark" timing by adjusting the flywheel ~6 deg earlier to take into account the higher rpm from better breathing along with higher compression, and with higher rpm you need some level of spark advance? We don't have vacuum advance in saws but i thought the newer saws have electronic spark advance? And i guess the deg of advance would give best power at the now adjusted higher rpm at max torque, guessing here now at 10K rpm or more instead of ~9K RPM?

Thanks again for great post!


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

Derrick......turning the flywheel to the right would retard the timing.....


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## Adam Smith (Nov 11, 2013)

Just to make sure the point here is seen, This thread goes to show what kind of people we have here on AS. Number one We have several people coming together to help out a family. Maybe you guys are all personal friends or maybe you just know one another from this forum regardless that does not matter. Number two We have a saw builder showing step by step how to mod a saw. Now the chances of someone doing the same mods you see here and getting as good of results as what Randy gets are not quite as likely. But what Im getting at is Randy is doing this for a benefit, he is taking time away from working on other saws to put money in his pocket and he is opening up his book of wisdom that has taken years im sure of destroying parts and learning from mistakes to get where he is at now. HATS OFF AND APPLAUDE. If I ever get the desire to have a saw done by a pro such as yourself I will for sure be in contact. I have been doing my own portwork and machining for a while now more for fun than anything. But I see in the near future that I will be in contact. Thanks again for all you guys do and GOD BLESS.


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## farrell (Nov 11, 2013)

I have a serious question............

Why is the saw two toned to look like a cremesicle?

I'm just reminded of ice creme bein soft and sweet.........is the saw also soft and sweet?







All joking aside thanks for sharing all this with us Randy!

It's shiney!


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

028 more minutes and I'll post another funny talkin video.....


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)




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## fastLeo151 (Nov 11, 2013)

Well I'm learning that 250 is definitely worth it. Thats sure a lot of tedious work.


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## komatsuvarna (Nov 11, 2013)

Good stuff big R!


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## les-or-more (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now, I'm trying to decide how much I should share on my port work..........I've spent a lot of time learning how to get repeatable results on the port heights.
> 
> I'm of the belief that knowing how I do it, and actually doing it yourself is two different things, so I'm just gonna spill all the beans here.


Its all good as long as you


Mastermind said:


> 028 more minutes and I'll post another funny talkin video.....


 Keep them coming as long as they aren't videos of you and Thomas1 in the sack, you can spoon him all you like while somebody kicks him, but please don't film it!


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## cattoon (Nov 11, 2013)

Thank you again for taking the time to explain, makes perfect sense now. I hope to be sending you a weak anemic heavy slow Echo 600P for you to do the voodoo you do so well too. I'm very pleased with it. I just want a great saw to be a badass saw.


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## tpope (Nov 11, 2013)

Your attention to detail is immaculate. I appreciate your willingness to share the info and techniques. Thanks!


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

I just got back home.....my daughter wanted her daddy to go look at a house she's thinking about buying. Went duty calls....I gotta go. 

I'm almost done with the port work, and will post a few more pics. There's really not a lot to doing the port work. 

Uploading pics now.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

Here's a shot of the upper transfer ports when they were just roughed in to the correct height. I try to make the corners as tight as I can on these so that they flow as much as possible when they first open. 









These are the various burrs I've used on these upper transfers. 





In this picture you can see what I was talking about in the video. I cut the port upward until I contact the card stock. The pencil lines are to control the width. As you can see, I don't widen the exhaust much at all. IMHO the shape of the port, and height, means far more than width. An overly wide port just wears the rings out faster. 





On the 461, and most Stihl saws, I use the heat shield as a template for port matching the muffler to the jug.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

The exhaust roughed in.









The intake marked up....again, I don't widen this port much either. 





This is a shot with one side roughed in. It gives you an idea of what I'm looking for in shape compared to the stock port.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

And a few shots of me grinding....


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

I use several different grits of emery cloth and ScotchBrite when finishing the port work. Here's some of the shop packs of emery cloth.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

I'm gonna do the finish on the port work now. Jon has been working the muffler over......and I'll have pics of that process later too.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

The transfer entrance after cutting the base.





And now.





Here's some shots with the finish at 80 grit.









In this picture you can see the bevel I added around the intake port.





The transfers thru the exhaust....I just wanted to see if I could get this shot. 





The intake is finished. 80 grit is as far as I take it.


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## AKDoug (Nov 11, 2013)

Do you hand sand, or put it on that sanding deal you use for cleaning up aluminum transfer on cylinders?


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## barneyrb (Nov 11, 2013)

Great job there Randy.......always learn a little each time you do a thread......


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## Stihlalltheway (Nov 11, 2013)

Very impressive. Love the funny talkin' videos. Wish I had $250...


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

AKDoug said:


> Do you hand sand, or put it on that sanding deal you use for cleaning up aluminum transfer on cylinders?



I've got different sizes of split mandrels that I've made....I use a shorter one for the port work. 







barneyrb said:


> Great job there Randy.......always learn a little each time you do a thread......



Thank you Randy. Sir Chef. 



Stihlalltheway said:


> Very impressive. Love the funny talkin' videos. Wish I had $250...



I'll get slammed with work after this thread, I always do....of course, that's a good thing. 

OK, the jug is in the ultrasonic tank......in a few minutes I'll post pics of the finished product.


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## fastLeo151 (Nov 11, 2013)

How often do you go outside your recipe papers? Or do you generally stick to building them exactly the same


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

Now the port work is finished, and the jug is ready to put back on the engine. I feel like I've done a good job on the porting when it's not obvious what all I've done. I had a fairly well known (but not very well liked) saw builder tell me that he had one of my engines apart, and that all he could see was that I had shined up a few things in it. I then told him that I also had been in one of his......and that it looked like something my grandson would do with a burr. That bastard hung up on me.  

In these pictures notice that I've rounded the edge of the squish band here. You should also be able to see a small bevel around the port edges.


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## splitpost (Nov 11, 2013)

opcorn:great work as usual,and so shiny


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## crane (Nov 11, 2013)

Wicked thread Randy. The pics are awesome!!

Some lucky winner will be able to pile wood chips at their feet all day, kick those same feet up that night and see how it was all done, right here.........


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## Hinerman (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Please ask any questions you want, no matter how elementary you may think they are.



Does the wasabi pea residue make the saw run faster?


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

fastLeo151 said:


> How often do you go outside your recipe papers? Or do you generally stick to building them exactly the same



That's a good question Andrew. I'm glad you brought that up.

When a model is something new, like this one was last year, I'll stay close to the original timing numbers. I'll add compression, set the squish in the .025" range, try some ignition timing advance, etc. Then when I put a few tanks thru the saw, I'll try to decide if it needs more exhaust, transfer, intake, and so forth. After that first saw, then I'll vary just the transfer, or intake timing a couple of degrees to see if it makes a difference. I'll vary a few degrees over ten - twelve saws, trying a little different numbers. When I see that I've gotten that model running the best I can make it, I'll stick with those numbers.

My worst fear is making a turd. It would really look bad if a couple of guys with the same saw, built by the same builder showed up at a GTG, swapped on new chains and one saw just waxed the other one's ass. That's why I'll only made small changes over many saws.....


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

Hinerman said:


> Does the wasabi pea residue make the saw run faster?



Well duh. Wasabi Peas are like Nitromethane to a two smoker.


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## AKDoug (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for the sanding reply. This is one of the best threads on porting I have read. I know how much time it takes to get these photos and videos done. I surely appreciate it.


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## Hinerman (Nov 11, 2013)

Another vote for an outstanding build thread. One of the best by far. For every picture/video posted, all I could think was,,,oh I would screw that up so fast. Worth every penny of the $250 if you ask me.


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## gr8mac (Nov 11, 2013)

I'd say the man has got it down. Great job, great photos, great thread!!!!


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## fastLeo151 (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now the port work is finished, and the jug is ready to put back on the engine. I feel like I've done a good job on the porting when it's not obvious what all I've done. I had a fairly well known (but not very well liked) saw builder tell me that he had one of my engines apart, and that all he could see was that I had shined up a few things in it. I then told him that I also had been in one of his......and that it looked like something my grandson would do with a burr. That bastard hung up on me
> 
> 
> I'm in the mood to nut punch some one....point em out


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

AKDoug said:


> Thanks for the sanding reply. This is one of the best threads on porting I have read. I know how much time it takes to get these photos and videos done. I surely appreciate it.



You are welcome Doug. There are a lot of guys that want to port their own saws.......I understand that, and am happy to help those guys see how I approach it. A lot of people say I shouldn't show so much of what I do, that my competition will take that information and use it to build saws just like the ones I build, and then I'd lose any edge I may have. To that I say, if anyone else is willing to put this much effort into building chainsaw engines, then they deserve to get plenty of work. This ain't a real easy gig....


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## Jacob J. (Nov 11, 2013)

Beautiful work as always Randy. People can look at your pictures but they ain't gonna be able to copy your work. The ones with that much talent are going to do their own thing and take a few cues from you and others...which only makes everyone better in the end.


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## Frank Boyer (Nov 11, 2013)

Extremely nice work.


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## fin460 (Nov 11, 2013)

Randy these saw build threads are better than sex!,... well atleast it lasts longer lol


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## Deleted member 116684 (Nov 11, 2013)

finally got around to checking on this thread. There are just not enough hours in the day! I'm loving the thread. Thanks so much for posting all the pics. Also, its a joy to help someone out in a tough time. And I might even win a saw. It's a win-win situation, so how do I donate?


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## chadihman (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I had a fairly well known (but not very well liked) saw builder tell me that he had one of my engines apart, and that all he could see was that I had shined up a few things in it. I then told him that I also had been in one of his......and that it looked like something my grandson would do with a burr. That bastard hung up on me.


I have two stock MS 460 saws. Would you be interested in building one for a challenge? I'd send the other one to the fairly well known (but not very well liked) builder who ever that may be. I'd run em hard on the dyno for a tank or two then get torque and HP specs at all rpms.

That's some fine looking port work Randy. Your gonna be busy for the winter now with all this excitement. I'm almost done playing with this dyno then we can make the deal on it to be yours. I'd love to see what you could do with the dyno. Your a darn good saw builder but I bet a dyno would take things to the next a whole nother level. Before I give the dyno up I need to get all the measurements and trace some parts out so I have backup parts if anything fails.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

inmansc said:


> finally got around to checking on this thread. There are just not enough hours in the day! I'm loving the thread. Thanks so much for posting all the pics. Also, its a joy to help someone out in a tough time. And I might even win a saw. It's a win-win situation, so how do I donate?



I'll be posting some pics of Jon's muffler work tomorrow, and wrapping this up. I figure Brad will kick off the donation thread then.



chadihman said:


> I have two stock MS 460 saws. Would you be interested in building one for a challenge? I'd send the other one to the fairly well known (but not very well liked) builder who ever that may be. I'd run em hard on the dyno for a tank or two then get torque and HP specs at all rpms.
> 
> That's some fine looking port work Randy. Your gonna be busy for the winter now with all this excitement. I'm almost done playing with this dyno then we can make the deal on it to be yours. I'd love to see what you could do with the dyno. Your a darn good saw builder but I bet a dyno would take things to the next a whole nother level. Before I give the dyno up I need to get all the measurements and trace some parts out so I have backup parts if anything fails.



That other builder would cry foul, no matter how it was done. He doesn't lose well, we saw that after the 066 build off.....


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## tlandrum (Nov 11, 2013)

and the 372 build off,and the 346 build off


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## fastLeo151 (Nov 11, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'll be posting some pics of Jon's muffler work tomorrow, and wrapping this up. I figure Brad will kick off the donation thread then.
> 
> That other builder would cry foul, no matter how it was done. He doesn't lose well, we saw that after the 066 build off.....



Yep, plus after the third build off I think we get the point


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2013)

tlandrum said:


> and the 372 build off,and the 346 build off




You know who I'm talking about.


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## CR500 (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here what I use for a piston stop. It's just an old spark plug with the insulator removed, and the center tapped for a 3/8" bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Randy at the tail end of this useful video.... there a couple notes that just chill the body. That song is Voodoo Chile by the late great Jimi Hendrix. I gotta hand it to you, you certainly have great music taste. Being a SRV guy I could see a little Hendrix in you library lol.


Most people do not know this but Hendrix did not play this through his Marshall amps like he was known to do. He actually played this song through a Fender Bassman. Hendrix is my favorite!!


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## (:-D (Nov 12, 2013)

I want to ship my 361 to you now... That's some cool work there! Thanks for the pics is neat to see machining work. I was a mill & lathe operator for Mahle before they closed that shop. I loved machining parts but never got to do anything like this!

Not to derail this thread, but how much difference does this type of job make on a saw?


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## Big_Wood (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> You know who I'm talking about.



so randy. just curious here and i don't expect you to tell me the name of this builder but if you wanna PM it to me that would be cool. so i know never to send him a saw of coarse  i may be way off here but if this builder is from canada and on AS, more specifically from campbell river B.C. i'll have you know that i've had his engines apart and they are absolutely nothing compared to yours. like hold your head in shame bad. you probably know who i'm talking about. the little bit of work he did was clean but that little bit of work was worth no more then the 10 minutes pay to remove and install the cylinder. meanwhile the guys that do terrible work are still charging the same. it's rediculous and maddening i tell you


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## tooold (Nov 12, 2013)

Very nice thread. I have never ported saws but have done my share of sleds, atv's, and bikes. I agree with you that when it comes to porting, sometimes less is more. It's not how much you take out, it's where! It seems the know-it-all's have lots of scrapped cylinders laying around too. One question though. I find when I would tighten up the squish area with higher compression, some engines would need the timing retarded some because the flame front was much faster. Do you ever run into that with saws?


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

CR500 said:


> Randy at the tail end of this useful video.... there a couple notes that just chill the body. That song is Voodoo Chile by the late great Jimi Hendrix. I gotta hand it to you, you certainly have great music taste. Being a SRV guy I could see a little Hendrix in you library lol.
> 
> 
> Most people do not know this but Hendrix did not play this through his Marshall amps like he was known to do. He actually played this song through a Fender Bassman. Hendrix is my favorite!!



The music playing in my little shop is an internet station called Pandora 1. I've added all my favorite genres and many of my most beloved artists. The music playing will range from Progressive Bluegrass to Blues Rock, and everything in between. My favorite band right now is Little Feat, in the Lowell George days......but that changes depending on my mood. 



:)-D said:


> I want to ship my 361 to you now... That's some cool work there! Thanks for the pics is neat to see machining work. I was a mill & lathe operator for Mahle before they closed that shop. I loved machining parts but never got to do anything like this!
> 
> Not to derail this thread, but how much difference does this type of job make on a saw?



On this saw we normally see a 35 - 40% increase in cut speed. Chain makes so much difference on a saw that all are gains can be made a moot point if the operator doesn't maintain a sharp chain. 



tooold said:


> Very nice thread. I have never ported saws but have done my share of sleds, atv's, and bikes. I agree with you that when it comes to porting, sometimes less is more. It's not how much you take out, it's where! It seems the know-it-all's have lots of scrapped cylinders laying around too. One question though. I find when I would tighten up the squish area with higher compression, some engines would need the timing retarded some because the flame front was much faster. Do you ever run into that with saws?



This is one of those things that I've kicked around quite a lot. Everyone looks at this from a mechanical standpoint rather than in a "what's really happening in there" view. If when stock the engine had a wide, lazy squish area.....then yes I've seen the timing advance that I do be too much lead. Case in point, I did a Solo 681 not long ago.....it had the timing advanced by a builder that had tweaked the saw before me. When I cut the squish and tightened things up, you could tell it was running with too much timing lead. I had to retard the timing some to make it run properly. 

I have to wonder if that could be affected by both the increase in flame front travel speed, and the fact that the point of ignition (spark plug) is now physically closer to the piston crown????

This sort of stuff is the kind of thing that interests me the most at this point.....


----------



## ernurse (Nov 12, 2013)

Just checked back in on this thread....very professional. I thought that I had a rough idea of what was involved. This is definitely more of an art than a science.....makes me even more excited for the return of my 441 now that I know what is being done to it. Thanks for sharing Randy.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Your 441 is next in line.......I hated to slip this one in front of it.......but it had to go in front of someone's.


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## o8f150 (Nov 12, 2013)

great job as usual randy


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks Scott. I try pretty hard.


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## gpb (Nov 12, 2013)

"A lot of people say I shouldn't show so much of what I do, that my competition will take that information and use it to build saws just like the ones I build, and then I'd lose any edge I may have." (Quoted from Randy). 

I've been watching Tiger Woods swing videos for years and still can't do what he does. Either you got it or don't...you sir, have got it. Great thread and easily worth the $250 to me.
Thanks


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Now for some pics of the muffler work. 

Jon starts by removing the whole baffle from the shell. In this pic you can see that he's center punched the spot welds and highlighted them with a black marker. 





Then he drills the spot welds thru the baffle, but not all the way thru the shell. 













The top attachment point is yet more spot welds, they are cut thru with a round carbide burr.





And she's outta there!!!!


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## ernurse (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Your 441 is next in line.......I hated to slip this one in front of it.......but it had to go in front of someone's.


 LOL its ok Randy no worries. The 461 is a great cause....I hope to win it. I hope the proceeds really help T-bone out. I know what hard times are like.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Now to match the muffler shell to the cylinder. Again we use the heat shield as a template.









We use a mesh screen that is more open in mufflers that will still accept a screen after the mods.





I didn't have a good picture of the side outlet......I will get a better one when the muffler is complete.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Now for the cover. 

This is an OEM MS460 cover that I've been hoarding...this is a good place to use it I think. 





They have a pretty small outlet from the factory......Jon fixes that.





Ready for paint....





Wiggs turned us on to this trick. Heating the muffler before painting it makes the paint dry as it hit the part......and it seems more durable. 





More later after it's all buttoned back up.


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## kc4sfe (Nov 12, 2013)

This is truly amazing to watch this process come together. Fear not - I'll not attempt this anytime soon but if I need a saw ported there is a VERY short list of who I would ask!


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## tbone75 (Nov 12, 2013)

Super nice as always Randy !!

Thank you very much !!


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## nixon (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks for a great read Randy ! It just confirms what I've always suspected ...... I'll just pay the $250 ,as I'd never be able to do something a nice as that ! Thanks again for sharing this with us .
John


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## Big_Wood (Nov 12, 2013)

great thread. when i check in. this is the first place i come. curious what the difference is between the 460 and 461 muff front half. i don't think i saw a pic of the 461 front half. there must be a reason you chose to use the 460 one.


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 12, 2013)

the heat thing is similar to how i paint mine too ,but i throw em on top of the shop woodstove after i bead blast them ,woodstove paint works good on the mufflers ,the stock paint seems to burn off pretty quick


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

The 460 muffler cover is the same......I've just been hoarding this one.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

I had my lovely little wife take the reassembly pics......she did really well. They are uploading now and I'll just post them in the order she snapped em.....


----------



## glock37 (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> The 460 muffler cover is the same......I've just been hoarding this one.


 
So you hoard things too i thought i was the only one that did that

Awesome 'how to' Randy the best 'how too' That ive seen on here

2 thumbs up to ya

Mike


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

nixon said:


> Thanks for a great read Randy ! It just confirms what I've always suspected ...... I'll just pay the $250 ,as I'd never be able to do something a nice as that ! Thanks again for sharing this with us .
> John



John I messed up the key in the flywheel in your 395XP. I'll be getting a new one.......sorry for the delay.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

I've been saving just the chips from porting in this jar. How many saws do you think this is?


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

The timing numbers.

Intake...





Exhaust...





Transfers...


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Now we put her back together....


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)




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## redfin (Nov 12, 2013)

Lots of chips in that jar mister. How many saws do you think you have done?


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)




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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)




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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)




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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

redfin said:


> Lots of chips in that jar mister. How many saws do you think you have done?



I've done 600 -700 saws. 

That jar has about 20 in it.


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## ELECT6845 (Nov 12, 2013)

Looks good Randy. That saw will make someone HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY


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## svk (Nov 12, 2013)

What a fantastic thread, and build! I'll be buying tickets for sure.


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## kc4sfe (Nov 12, 2013)

Sign me up..... Great thread.


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## nixon (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> John I messed up the key in the flywheel in your 395XP. I'll be getting a new one.......sorry for the delay.



Not a problem , Randy . Too cold outside for my old bones anyway . Besides, I've got a few things that need attention inside that I haven't done .


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 12, 2013)

they forgot to put the words "the saw shop" on this batch of stickers


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## spacemule (Nov 12, 2013)

Very professional. You're one of the first I've seen here I'd consider giving business to. cheers.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

nixon said:


> Not a problem , Randy . Too cold outside for my old bones anyway . Besides, I've got a few things that need attention inside that I haven't done .



I guess I must have neglected to tighten the nut well enough John. 

It came loose and scared the crap outta me when the saw died. 



Trx250r180 said:


> they forgot to put the words "the saw shop" on this batch of stickers



I had them remodeled.......



spacemule said:


> Very professional. You're one of the first I've seen here I'd consider giving business to. cheers.



Thanks Rex.......that means a lot to me.


----------



## o8f150 (Nov 12, 2013)

nice to see you kicked back taking a break randy


----------



## nixon (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I guess I must have neglected to tighten the nut well enough John.
> 
> It came loose and scared the crap outta me when the saw died.


PICS ??


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Now John, I ain't posting no pictures of muh shitty drawers.


----------



## nixon (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now John, I ain't posting no pictures of muh shitty drawers.


Bet if SS asked , you would have ! !


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

I really like you John........here man.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Another one of my threads, dragged into the ditch by me.


----------



## showrguy (Nov 12, 2013)

awesome thread !!!!
no other way to describe.....
your a great man mr. evans,,,, glad to know you..


----------



## origionalrebel (Nov 12, 2013)

i don't think i'd know what to do with a saw like that but i sure would love to find out, lol. recon i'll just have to win it and find out. great thread Randy.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

I ain't gonna open the bar or chain, when we test run this saw, we'll use one of our bars. That way the winner will have brandy new stuff with the saw.


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## tbone75 (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Another one of my threads, dragged into the ditch by me.



What a chitty thing to post ! LOL


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

John made me do it Mr. Slug.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Where is The Bradley? 

We need to start the donation thread.......I'ma Facebook him right now and stuff.


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## tbone75 (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> John made me do it Mr. Slug.



Wouldn't expect any less from ya ! LOL


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

I spoke with Brad on the phone a little while ago. He said he would be working on getting everything ready soon.


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## barneyrb (Nov 12, 2013)

MasterMoobs, I don't know if it will help you or not but I adapted a small hose from a shop vac and hook it up to the intake on the cylinders. It keeps the chips off the bench and out of my hands. Also keeps the cylinder cleaner inside so I can see muh marks better with my tired old eyes. Alum slivers will fester up and get real sore......


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

That's be a good idea Randy......but I hate the sound of a ShopVac.


----------



## chadihman (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I really like you John........here man.


----------



## supertrooper (Nov 12, 2013)

Awesome, informative thread... until the epic derail that is!! While I hope I win this saw more important is the damn good thing y'all are doin!!


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

It wouldn't be a Mastermind thread without the humor.

and the poopy pants


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## Lark-o (Nov 12, 2013)

Your work quality is fantastic, Like any great engine builder you make it look easy. Have you ever thought about broadening horizons like 4 stroke Cylinder heads and intakes? 
Since you like bluesy blue grass Check out the Wood Brothers I think you might like them.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Lark-o said:


> Your work quality is fantastic, Like any great engine builder you make it look easy. Have you ever thought about broadening horizons like 4 stroke Cylinder heads and intakes?
> Since you like bluesy blue grass Check out the Wood Brothers I think you might like them.



I drag raced for many years.......built all my own engines too. That is an expensive hobby......

With the CNC porting that is available these days, I don't think I could be competitive in that market though.


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> It wouldn't be a Mastermind thread without the humor.
> 
> and the poopy pants



I wouldn't read so many of these if they weren't so interesting when derailed.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Brad should be starting to donation thread anytime now......


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Here it is!!!!!!!

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ing-away-a-fully-modified-stihl-ms461.246621/


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## supertrooper (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I drag raced for many years.......built all my own engines too. That is an expensive hobby......
> 
> With the CNC porting that is available these days, I don't think I could be competitive in that market though.


You're still good at layin down the racing stripes at least!!


----------



## Lark-o (Nov 12, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I drag raced for many years.......built all my own engines too. That is an expensive hobby......
> 
> With the CNC porting that is available these days, I don't think I could be competitive in that market though.


I agree about the cnc part but there is still alot of guys doing it the old fashion way. I hang around alot drag racers and chassis builders to get my car fix because im too broke to have a car myself but in my area 2 of the big names in around here still do hand porting even on cnc'd heads. Its all in what you want to take on too, i imagine you stay pretty busy.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Nov 12, 2013)

Nice werk there Randy,,, Yeah fresh roasted punkin seeds are tha Shiznit!!!!!


----------



## Festus (Nov 12, 2013)

You guys don't be pushin Randy out of the chainsaw bidness. He wouldn't do us any good wasting time on no racing engines.


----------



## Tree Sling'r (Nov 12, 2013)

Very nice work sir. These 461s mod very well.


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## Mastermind (Nov 12, 2013)

Lark-o said:


> I agree about the cnc part but there is still alot of guys doing it the old fashion way. I hang around alot drag racers and chassis builders to get my car fix because im too broke to have a car myself but in my area 2 of the big names in around here still do hand porting even on cnc'd heads. Its all in what you want to take on too, i imagine you stay pretty busy.



We are doing over 200 saws a year now.......and no local work at all. 



Tree Sling'r said:


> Very nice work sir. These 461s mod very well.



Thanks for the nod Jasha.......it means a lot coming from you my friend.


----------



## Nate66n1 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tip of the hat to you, awesome thread


----------



## Lark-o (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> We are doing over 200 saws a year now.......and no local work at all.



That's a good amount, I imagine you stay pretty busy then 
I see how you have earned the reputation you have after reading this thread. Awesome work for a good cause.


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## wigglesworth (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Please ask any questions you want, no matter how elementary you may think they are.



What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

And what's your favorite color?


----------



## Eccentric (Nov 13, 2013)

African or European?


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> .......and no local work at all.



Including the breast pumps? I'd think there'd be a few of those on the local scene...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

wigglesworth said:


> What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
> 
> And what's your favorite color?





Eccentric said:


> African or European?



*It’s a simple question of weight ratios*.....

Averaging the above numbers and plugging them in to the Strouhal equation for cruising flight (_f_A/U = 7 beats per second * 0.18 meters per beat / 9.5 meters per second) yields a Strouhal number of roughly 0.13:






... indicating a surprisingly efficient flight pattern falling well below the expected range of 0.2–0.4.

Although a definitive answer would of course require further measurements, published species-wide averages of wing length and body mass, initial Strouhal estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Strouhal numbers based on that study all lead me to estimate that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly *11 meters per second*, or *24 miles an hour*.

Blue, I like blue best....



Jacob J. said:


> Including the breast pumps? I'd think there'd be a few of those on the local scene...



Needing a breast pump repaired are we?


----------



## nmurph (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> ...Needing a breast pump repaired are we?


 
I think he's hoping you can port one for more torque.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

I heard you got cut Neal........you ok?


----------



## nmurph (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I heard you got cut Neal........you ok?


 
Yep, fell on a chain-less bar in the shop...A couple of nice slics that took a chunk out of the wrist. Doc stitched me up and now I look like I tried to off myself.


...or do you mean cut, as in a gilt???? If so, nope....they'd have to catch me first.


----------



## Lark-o (Nov 13, 2013)

Yikes, bet that bled pretty good.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

Dammit Neal......


----------



## 7oaks (Nov 13, 2013)

Best mod thread yet! I'm still not going to try it.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

I hope there are guys that take the info I post in these threads and build their own saws. I remember when I was scouring the internet looking for this sort of stuff.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Nov 13, 2013)

Nice trick with the card stock ! Save's from putting the cylinder on 4 or 5 times and risking getting aluminum dust in the bottom end each time you do, I like it !
I basically do mine the exact same way, but I mark the cylinder with a sharpe off the ring instead of using the card stock.....then I still grind and check grind and check . Think I'll try the card stock next time.

So do we get a vid?


----------



## farrell (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I hope there are guys that take the info I post in these threads and build their own saws. I remember when I was scouring the internet looking for this sort of stuff.



I know without guidance from Randy and the fight thread boys I wouldn't have been able to open my saws up! 

Don't have the technology to cut the squish or pop up the piston...........maybe someday?

I hadn't tried any upper transfer work or timing advance yet


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

komatsuvarna said:


> Nice trick with the card stock ! Save's from putting the cylinder on 4 or 5 times and risking getting aluminum dust in the bottom end each time you do, I like it !
> I basically do mine the exact same way, but I mark the cylinder with a sharpe off the ring instead of using the card stock.....then I still grind and check grind and check . Think I'll try the card stock next time.
> 
> So do we get a vid?



Not yet. I don't wanna get it dirty.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I hope there are guys that take the info I post in these threads and build their own saws. I remember when I was scouring the internet looking for this sort of stuff.



You know, after seeing this thread, I might just give building a saw a try someday....


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## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

wigglesworth said:


> You know, after seeing this thread, I might just give building a saw a try someday....



And in your case......TRY is the operative word.


----------



## barneyrb (Nov 13, 2013)

wigglesworth said:


> You know, after seeing this thread, I might just give building a saw a try someday....


We'll be waiting on it a year from now.....


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## wigglesworth (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> And in your case......TRY is the operative word.






barneyrb said:


> We'll be waiting on it a year from now.....





I'm going to bed now.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

Good ideer.....


----------



## shootingarts (Nov 13, 2013)

Fantastic! The one word covers the thread, the build, and the reason behind the build. I'll put my name in the hat, certainly won't be any losers on this deal.

Don't know if it is worth the aggravation but the bake on paints might be worth considering for the mufflers. Back when the paint for guns was pretty new a friend wanted to try the stuff from Brownell's on a 1911 I built for him. A compensated race gun, figured the paint wouldn't last a week between and around the comp ports. To my surprise the paint stayed perfect at least several years, no idea how long. I just sprayed the paint on out of a spray bomb can and stuck the parts in a kitchen oven. 325 degrees until lightly brown, oops, that's my biscuits, make that color black on the gun.

Hu


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thread re-affirms everything I already knew about you and your work Randy. It's been money well spent on the 13 or 14 saws you've done for me. I still have no interest in ever doing it myself. $250 is a small price to pay for the results I know you will deliver. Im hoping 2014 will bring some new models that interest me and rest assured they will be sent your way.

I also think this thread and what you have shown us will do nothing but help your business. Not only is your skill evidenced.... but also your character and class as a person and friend. The Monkey is "High Caliber" in my book.


----------



## young (Nov 13, 2013)

lots of pictures. i like!

i need to get me one of these saws.


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## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

A midget of your size would get hurt by a saw like this one.


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2013)

young said:


> lots of pictures. i like!
> 
> i need to get me one of these saws.



Well send me the one you have and get another one

Does that thing even run? We haven't seen a video yetopcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## rheima (Nov 13, 2013)

Randy----------I have been using saws for a long time, just never got into hopping them up. Now I know why, it's a lot of work! I understand a lot more of the terms that I hear being tossed around at GTG's now. Thanks for a great build and fantastic pictures to boot! I hope the saw goes to a very appreciative new owner-----------------me for an example. Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ray


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

Does it run? Hell yes it runs. 

When I fired it up today it was making 15,400 RPM. I'll need to rejet the carb........I ended up 2.5 turns out on the HS and it was at 14,500. We made a video, I'll load it tomorrow.


----------



## young (Nov 13, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Well send me the one you have and get another one
> 
> Does that thing even run? We haven't seen a video yetopcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


well if you were at the w.ky gtg you would have had a chance to run it lol.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

How much wood has it seen Young?


----------



## fastLeo151 (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Does it run? Hell yes it runs.
> 
> When I fired it up today it was making 15,400 RPM. I'll need to rejet the carb........I ended up 2.5 turns out on the HS and it was at 14,500. We made a video, I'll load it tomorrow.



What is the stock jet? And what are you changing it to? And what jet does mine have in it?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

They have a small jet in comparison to an early 066 or 046. I've been tweaking my numbers a little bit still, and have found more RPM in the process. Yours is probably just fine like it is. This one would be ok with the jet that is in it, but the HS screw is getting pretty far out.....


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 13, 2013)

fastLeo151 said:


> What is the stock jet? And what are you changing it to? And what jet does mine have in it?



Dunno bout stock jet in a 461, but a 460 IIRC is .68. Early 046 Mag was .72.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 13, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> They have a small jet in comparison to an early 066 or 046.



Early 066 is .74


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2013)

young said:


> well if you were at the w.ky gtg you would have had a chance to run it lol.



I got to run it ported before you did if I remember right.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

It a .58 in the 461 I think Wiggs.

That was a different saw Mike......he sold it and had me do another one in "Extra Spicy" condition.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Nov 13, 2013)

wigglesworth said:


> Dunno bout stock jet in a 461, but a 460 IIRC is .68. Early 046 Mag was .72.



Good info, I may dig into mine to check em out


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

What it will do is make the HS screw adjust at closer to 1 - 1.5 turns out. It won't change performance much if any.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Nov 13, 2013)

Are the jets interchangeable between the two....


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 13, 2013)

Yep


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 14, 2013)

do you think the coil swap made it lean ? my 461 is really rich with the stock coil ,if i pull the muffler cover inside the muffler has oil residue ,plug is color of coffee with some cream in it


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2013)

I can fatten this one up, but the HS screw is way out on it. I've been playing with transfer height on it.....this one is insane.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2013)

This thread has been viewed almost 10,000 times.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Nov 14, 2013)

But 9,847 by. me so that doesn't mean much.......so I'm gonna offer 461 port jobs for bout 44.95 free shipping if anyone is interested


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2013)

That's a good price Andrew.......but will the ones you build throw chips like this?


----------



## fastLeo151 (Nov 14, 2013)

Well its hard to say haven't got one mine to run yet......sweet picture


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2013)

Here's a video of the beast. She throws a piece of her muffler at the log.


----------



## deye223 (Nov 14, 2013)

good to see it's tuned fat


----------



## fastLeo151 (Nov 14, 2013)

seems tuned nicely, thats what I like to hear


----------



## ernurse (Nov 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here's a video of the beast. She throws a piece of her muffler at the log.



I hope my 441 runs as good as that saw does. Nice work. sounds great


----------



## o8f150 (Nov 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here's a video of the beast. She throws a piece of her muffler at the log.



my little ms170 could whoop its azz,,, heres proof
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Sr4oqOVyjfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## ernurse (Nov 14, 2013)

o8f150 said:


> my little ms170 could whoop its azz,,, heres proof
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Sr4oqOVyjfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


 That would woop my 660's azz


----------



## Stihlman441 (Nov 14, 2013)

Sounds good to me,funny how they have there own you neak sound.


----------



## young (Nov 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> It a .58 in the 461 I think Wiggs.
> 
> That was a different saw Mike......he sold it and had me do another one in "Extra Spicy" condition.



yup. stupid stihl. i replaced mine with a .70 before i gave it to randy. as randy stated with the bigger jet youre less out and give you more head room on the high side.

picked up this titbit from wiggz.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2013)

Yeah that Wigglesworth is a smart dude........even if he is a midget.


----------



## young (Nov 14, 2013)

Bill Becker said:


> Jets: (not all are available in all countries)
> .46 = 1121 121 5601
> .52 = 1121 121 5602
> .56 = 1120 121 5600
> ...



for the lazy folks.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks for posting that Young......


----------



## windthrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> My worst fear is making a turd.


 
A quote for the ages... from the master saw builder artisan.

.


----------



## Hunowie (Nov 16, 2013)

Fantastic, trully fantastic. Hats off to you Master Randy.
But arent you affraid that stihl is gonna see it and build stock saws like u do now?


----------



## o8f150 (Nov 16, 2013)

Hunowie said:


> Fantastic, trully fantastic. Hats off to you Master Randy.
> But arent you affraid that stihl is gonna see it and build stock saws like u do now?


 that will never happen due to epa regs


----------



## Hunowie (Nov 16, 2013)

Doesn't placing transfer/exchaust in spin setup increase power but also burn ratio? Ergo engine create less fumes. - or am I being an idiot again?

Yes, sorry for my english.
I wrote that and friend called so i posted that without fixing.
When transferrs aren't placed in front of others but moved to the side by few degrees inside cylinder so when fule mix enters the chamber it is spining like vortex.Fuel is better mixed and burns more efficiently.


----------



## crane (Nov 16, 2013)

Hunowie said:


> Doesn't placing transfer/exchaust in spin setup increase power but also burn ratio? Ergo engine create less fumes. - or am I being an idiot again?
> Question for pro - Randy where did you get that mesh screen? Equipment sotre?
> It seems i used too closed one and it gets plugged after little work.


Ther're from the government and they are here to HELP!
That's why you'll never see stock saws run like Randy's or the other modders.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2013)

Hunowie said:


> Doesn't placing transfer/exchaust in spin setup increase power but also burn ratio? Ergo engine create less fumes. - or am I being an idiot again?
> Question for pro - Randy where did you get that mesh screen? Equipment sotre?
> It seems i used too closed one and it gets plugged after little work.



I ain't got a clue what you are asking. Is English a second language for you?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

Have y'all got in on the drawing yet?


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Have y'all got in on the drawing yet?



I'll be getting at least a couple tickets next payday. Gotta watch my funds with christmas around the corner though. Nice build by the way randy.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

I got a few chances for my own self......I'd love to own a Mooberized 461.


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I got a few chances for my own self......I'd love to own a Mooberized 461.



You've probably done enough now that you told each customer they needed a new part. You do that everytime but a different part each time and eventually have enough parts to build your own. I know how you work


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

Let me think......


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Let me think......



No "I have a potty mouth"? No reported? Yer slip'n randy. No need to think, just report me and life will go on. I need me a masterminded saw too by the way. You should start a new program like all the drug dealers have. First ones always free.  i'd be all over that.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

Get four done for the price of three?

BTW........"I have a potty mouth"


----------



## farrell (Nov 17, 2013)

Woooooohooooooooo!

Randy's doin BOGO!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

Randy has been BOGO.....


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Get four done for the price of three?
> 
> BTW........"I have a potty mouth"



If i could afford to even get 1 done i would have done it already


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

I love to trade you know.


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm gonna have to think of an interesting trade then. One that intrigues you enough to pay for shipping


----------



## crane (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I love to trade you know.


what would tickle the intrest of a pistol packing primate???


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

I like stuff......cool stuff.....guns.....saws......wimmin.....


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

How do i go about exporting a gun to you? Not sure if i wanna part with any of my guns but just in case. I got a decent parker bro's 12g shotgun from 1912 i might think of trading. they are valuable shotguns. see some go at auction for $3000 in beat to hell shape. Also got a mail order bride from a few years ago that didn't work out  i also have some cool stuff that i may or nay not let go. Hahahaha


----------



## tbone75 (Nov 17, 2013)

Take the shotgun ! Them mail order brides look just like DSS ! LOL 

Then , maybe you would like that ? LOL


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

I already got a mail order bride, and a shotgun....


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

tbone75 said:


> Take the shotgun ! Them mail order brides look just like DSS ! LOL
> 
> Then , maybe you would like that ? LOL



To be honest i don't got no mail order bride on hand but i could order you one. There are actually vietnamese guys here offering into the k thousands fir someone to merry their daughters and nieces. They don't look like DSS either. They be the cutest little wimmins. I got a buddy who did it and she ain't no DSS thats for sure.


----------



## husqvarnaguy (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I like stuff......cool stuff.....guns.....saws......wimmin.....


 How about a corndog and a pigme goat?


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I already got a mail order bride, and a shotgun....



Well to bad fir me i guess  i know you like hand guns and tote one around daily but my hand guns stay with me. I believe exporting a handgun from here to the states is next to impossible anyways unless i got my own firearms shop.


----------



## husqvarnaguy (Nov 17, 2013)

westcoaster90 said:


> Well to bad fir me i guess  i know you like hand guns and tote one around daily but my hand guns stay with me. I believe exporting a handgun from here to the states is next to impossible anyways unless i got my own firearms shop.


 
You could hide it in a cavity.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

husqvarnaguy said:


> How about a corndog and a pigme goat?



Tempting.....



husqvarnaguy said:


> You could hide it in a cavity.


 
Of a goat?


----------



## husqvarnaguy (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Tempting.....
> 
> 
> 
> Of a goat?


or a person


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

husqvarnaguy said:


> or a person



Or even a chimp


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

Volunteers?


----------



## farrell (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Volunteers?



Well as long as I get a ported saw outta it!


----------



## Eccentric (Nov 17, 2013)

Reported.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 17, 2013)

Snitch......


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Snitch......



Woh woh woh be careful there randy. Don't wanna mess with that Aaron bear. Woukdn't that have been cool if you won that 350 Aaron. You could have traded it to me for that 125. I see you PM'd me on thumpertalk but i can't log in over there for some reason. They banned me but i bet i'm allowed back by now.


----------



## Eccentric (Nov 18, 2013)

Yep. At least it went to a good guy. I almost picked up another 350 localy recently too. Just missed it. May get a 357xp for you this week......if it works out.


----------



## wyk (Nov 18, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I like stuff......cool stuff.....guns.....saws......wimmin.....



Careful what ya ask for, Randy. I've got an Irish woman.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2013)

I've got one that's an English/Cherokee mix. She sure can be a mean one when riled up.


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 18, 2013)

Eccentric said:


> Yep. At least it went to a good guy. I almost picked up another 350 localy recently too. Just missed it. May get a 357xp for you this week......if it works out.



i would really like a 357. currently i have enough saws that do the jobs i need but may as well fill every cc range aye  i'm currently building a second 372. just waiting to finish up a trade with J.J. still interested in that other 372 that might be an xpw too. i'll get some pics of the 125 to you in a PM come soon. get yer blood flowing . my buddy swears it's an sp125 but i'm not convinced yet. it doesn't have an AF cover but he is looking for it cause he swears he has it somewhere. he is a bit of hoarder. either way it is a 125 but i can't even remember if it's got AV or not. i got it stored in a safe place that isn't even accessible to me without a 20 min drive. aka grandpa's shop. don't have room here for anymore big saws.


----------



## Eccentric (Nov 18, 2013)

We should continue this in PM's so as to not further derail this thread. Bet you get some PM's from guys trying to bird dog that saw out from under my nose now.....


*On-topic content:*

Come on guys.............................donate to the TBone75 fundraiser. You may winya a brandy new MasterMinded (Mooberized) MS461!!!


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 18, 2013)

It ain't going no where but you so it wouldn't matter anyways. I won't further derail this thread anymore.


----------



## dieseldave (Nov 20, 2013)

Randy, Fantastic thread, thank you for sharing all the info and pics and stuff. You had mentioned earlier about having to retard the ignition timing on a modded 681- I can see how that would be so, since you tightened up the squish it would increase the turbulence and the efficiency of the chamber, which would allow you to pull some ignition lead out of it. Ever think of modifying the chamber for increased swirl? I've been doing a couple of things in that direction on my last few saws and it seems to work.


----------



## one.man.band (Nov 22, 2013)

dieseldave said:


> Randy, Fantastic thread, thank you for sharing all the info and pics and stuff. You had mentioned earlier about having to retard the ignition timing on a modded 681- I can see how that would be so, since you tightened up the squish it would increase the turbulence and the efficiency of the chamber, which would allow you to pull some ignition lead out of it. Ever think of modifying the chamber for increased swirl? I've been doing a couple of things in that direction on my last few saws and it seems to work.



randy...just want to echo the reply above. only the second build thread, i have ever had the stomach to read all the way through in the last 2 years. i'm a sucker for trying to help someone out at heart.

commend both, you and snell.. first and foremost. that is what life is all about.

-joe


----------



## wyk (Nov 22, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've got one that's an English/Cherokee mix. She sure can be a mean one when riled up.



I'm part Cherokee myself. 

Good on you guys for your philanthropy. It's good to see people coming together.


----------



## Adam Smith (Nov 29, 2013)

Just in case anyone missed this Ill bump it back to the front


----------



## Tnshaker (Dec 3, 2013)

Oh boy....now I am wanting one of these


----------



## jughead500 (Dec 3, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I've got one that's an English/Cherokee mix. She sure can be a mean one when riled up.


I got one thats all Irish redneck.I keep her away from any and all alcohol.somebody cut in front of me at taco bell late one night and she wanted to pile out on them with her switch blade after she had a pinia colada lol


----------



## jughead500 (Dec 3, 2013)

Cherokeedeer said:


> I'm part Cherokee myself.
> 
> Good on you guys for your philanthropy. It's good to see people coming together.


Im 1/4 Cherokee from moms side


----------



## Ron660 (Feb 6, 2014)

Mine is pleasant on the eyes with a great blend: asian indian & filipino until you get her mad. Best thing I've found out to fix it give her extra spending money with no rebuttal on her demands. I just keep a few extra Michelob lights around for anger management or go sharpen some chainsaw chains. She's kinda like a ported Stihl 261...small but powerful and pleasant to run.


----------



## Mastermind (May 12, 2014)

I've got a brand spankin new MS460 setting on my bench......gonna give it this very same treatment......







Then raffle it off.


----------



## fin460 (May 12, 2014)

I will be buying a lot of tickets for this one!


----------



## Mastermind (May 31, 2014)

I forgot how damn long this thread was.


----------



## DexterDay (May 31, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've got a brand spankin new MS460 setting on my bench......gonna give it this very same treatment......
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You make a mean 460!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 3, 2014)

I like this thread.


----------



## big t double (Jul 3, 2014)

I was just looking at it last nite...it is a good one


----------



## Stihlman441 (Jan 19, 2015)

Mastermind said:


>




Diggen up old stuff here but
If you set up 2 indicators one for the squish band end and another for the base end of the cylinder ya can adjust without moving the slide.
Just sayin.


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Jan 26, 2015)

This is a great reference thread that has a lot of answers to fill in the gaps on how to do this work.
I look over it from time to time and pick up a little more each time.

Randy i have about 6 magnetic indicator bases if you need any.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 6, 2015)

Sorry I missed this post Mr. Bilge Rat Sir. 

I have several bases now. Amazing now we gather up tools ain't it?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2015)

Bump for a feller that is learning to port.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 20, 2015)

Bump for another feller that is learning to cut squish bands.


----------



## Ironworker (Aug 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Bump for another feller that is learning to cut squish bands.


Hey Randy thanks for bringing this back up, I just bought a 359 I'm gonna port, not sure to what extent though. I just watched the vid on the degree wheel, quick question, do you bring the saw to TDC and then adjust the piston stop or is there a predetermined spot where you place it.And would you happen to have a recipe for a 359.


----------



## drf255 (Aug 20, 2015)

Great thread


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 20, 2015)

Ironworker said:


> Hey Randy thanks for bringing this back up, I just bought a 359 I'm gonna port, not sure to what extent though. I just watched the vid on the degree wheel, quick question, do you bring the saw to TDC and then adjust the piston stop or is there a predetermined spot where you place it.And would you happen to have a recipe for a 359.



Tighten the piston stop, bump against it. While holding against it, set the wheel on zero. Then rotate the crank around till, the piston hits the stop at the other end of the stroke. Read the wheel, divide that number by two, reset the wheel to that number while the piston is touching the stop. Rotate the crank to contact the stop at both ends of the stroke, the wheel should read the same number at each end. 

On the 359, unshrould the lower transfers. Shoot for 103/122/and just widen the intake.


----------



## Ironworker (Aug 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Tighten the piston stop, bump against it. While holding against it, set the wheel on zero. Then rotate the crank around till, the piston hits the stop at the other end of the stroke. Read the wheel, divide that number by two, reset the wheel to that number while the piston is touching the stop. Rotate the crank to contact the stop at both ends of the stroke, the wheel should read the same number at each end.
> 
> On the 359, unshrould the lower transfers. Shoot for 103/122/and just widen the intake.


Thanks, what's unshrould mean, I aint that smart. So I'm guessing the piston stop is not TDC but a reference point.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 20, 2015)

Now I want my 461 ported.
Thanks a lot azzhole


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 20, 2015)

Ironworker said:


> Thanks, what's unshrould mean, I aint that smart. So I'm guessing the piston stop is not TDC but a reference point.



Here you go. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/modding-a-new-old-stock-husqvarna-359.231071/



Adirondackstihl said:


> Now I want my 461 ported.
> Thanks a lot azzhole



Call me Puto.


----------



## IH3444 (Aug 21, 2015)

Hello MM, Stihl rates the MS461 at 6hp in the USA. Reading this outstanding documented ported and built MS461, what hp do you estimate now?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 21, 2015)

7.5 maybe?


----------



## Jonesy11 (Aug 21, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> 7.5 maybe?


Is that before or after the sticker is added?


----------



## Full Chisel (Aug 21, 2015)

Loved the thread, great stuff Randy! Dem 461s are mean...


----------



## Paragon Builder (Aug 21, 2015)

Wow! What a great read! It's gonna be a great reference tool when I get started with my saws. 
Thanks Randy!


----------



## drf255 (Aug 22, 2015)

So after nearly two years, have you learned anything that you'd change in building this model?

Most surprising part for me was keeping the exhaust port narrow. Makes tons of sense. 

Did the winner ever check the compression after run in?

Where does one purchase those jets?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 22, 2015)

drf255 said:


> So after nearly two years, have you learned anything that you'd change in building this model?
> 
> Most surprising part for me was keeping the exhaust port narrow. Makes tons of sense.
> 
> ...



Nope, I still do em the same way.

I'm trying to build saws that will hopefully last.......a wide exhaust is not good for the rings. 

Who won? I can't remember. 

I drill the stock jet oversized.


----------



## Ironworker (Aug 25, 2015)

Bump, for reference


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 25, 2015)

Holy crap.......this thread has been viewed 36,065 times.


----------



## Jimbo209 (Aug 25, 2015)

36,066


----------



## Ironworker (Aug 27, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Holy crap.......this thread has been viewed 36,065 times.


I've been looking at it a few times just in the last two weeks. I am waiting on a degree wheel but in the mean time I managed to mount a chuck on to the fly wheel but noticed it wobbles just a touch, would that be normal.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 27, 2015)

I mount mine on the crank on the clutch side.


----------



## Ironworker (Aug 27, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> I mount mine on the crank on the clutch side.


That's probably what I'll end up doing, I was just messing around after work. Really didn't want to remove the clutch.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 27, 2015)

You don't have to remove the clutch except on outboard models. The inboard just pop the e clip and stuff off and slide it on there.


----------



## Ironworker (Aug 27, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> You don't have to remove the clutch except on outboard models. The inboard just pop the e clip and stuff off and slide it on there.


Outboard and it's done, thanks, I just had some stuff laying around and tried to get fancy.


----------



## El Moobs (Jul 19, 2016)

This was a good thread.......


----------



## Jon1212 (Jul 19, 2016)

El Moobs said:


> This was a good thread.......


Almost as good as that MS390 thread Mastermind posted up five years ago.


----------



## El Moobs (Jul 19, 2016)

The pictures are all gone outta that thread.


----------



## Jon1212 (Jul 19, 2016)

El Moobs said:


> The pictures are all gone outta that thread.


It is all rather unfortunate what happened to so much great content........

_CURSE YOU, LINKBUCKS!_


----------



## El Moobs (Jul 19, 2016)

My heart is broked......


----------



## Jon1212 (Jul 19, 2016)

El Moobs said:


> My heart is broked......


My sorry, little buddy.....


----------



## El Moobs (Jul 19, 2016)

It's ok. Primates don't really care about broked hearts.


----------



## ihscoutlover (Oct 5, 2016)

Randy, excellent thread. Is there a way you can contact me either through a PM, or messenger on FB? I want further information. This thread was a great read. Kudos for the work you did and the attention to detail that you provided.

Jeff


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

Hello? 

Is this thing on? 

HELLO????????


----------



## J.W Younger (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Hello?
> 
> Is this thing on?
> 
> HELLO????????


Just nod if u can hear me is there anyone home...


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

J.W Younger said:


> Just nod if u can hear me is there anyone home...



I tried to nod........but slipped out a bit of shart.


----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Hello?
> 
> Is this thing on?
> 
> HELLO????????



Oh look a newbie....


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

maulhead said:


> Oh look a newbie....


----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


>



I think you'll fit in fine around here.


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

maulhead said:


> I think you'll fit in fine around here.



I need someone to explain the difference between a cut squish and a pop up to me. 

Has it got something to do with immoral and elicit sexual behavior?


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I need someone to explain the difference between a cut squish and a pop up to me.
> 
> Has it got something to do with immoral and elicit sexual behavior?


Yeth


----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I need someone to explain the difference between a cut squish and a pop up to me.
> 
> Has it got something to do with immoral and elicit sexual behavior?



Think of it as uncircumcised vs circumcised....


----------



## J.W Younger (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I need someone to explain the difference between a cut squish and a pop up to me.
> 
> Has it got something to do with immoral and elicit sexual behavior?


Does it involve paying a hooker to set on yer lap or molesting an underage clam-shell?


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Yeth



Sup Jer? 




maulhead said:


> Think of it as uncircumcised vs circumcised....



Great.....now I wanna eat a corndog. 



J.W Younger said:


> Does it involve paying a hooker to set on yer lap or molesting an underage clam-shell?



This guy........yeah......

This Guy Gets It !!!!!!


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Sup Jer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just tryin to prep for surgery buddy.
I think we have a plan in place. I’m in a bit better spirits today than I was last night.

+


----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

I heard 461's might not be around for much longer....(


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Just tryin to prep for surgery buddy.
> I think we have a plan in place. I’m in a bit better spirits today than I was last night.
> 
> +View attachment 626052



That good to read brother. What is going on between your ears is just as important as the bodily functions. 

You've hear the term "Mind ****ed" ? It's a real thing. 



maulhead said:


> I heard 461's might not be around for much longer....(



Well dammit. I finally got one of them done.


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)




----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


>




I knew that avatar looked familiar...


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

maulhead said:


> I knew that avatar looked familiar...



I'm Back !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

461 going away huh?


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)




----------



## grizz55chev (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


>



That one angry beaver right there!


----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


>




That's the damn video that made me buy a 461....

Well this one also, seemed to have helped.


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

maulhead said:


> That's the damn video that made me buy a 461....
> 
> Well this one also, seemed to have helped.




That bottom one was the first one I ever did. Took it to Wiggs place and Scott beated it with the first one he did. 

That damn Treemonkey is tough to beat.


----------



## JTM (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


>



Look dude, are you giving away a saw that runs like that? I saw the video but I ain’t reading all the other superfluous verbosity (responses) although I ain’t eating no damned corn dogs, whatever that was about. So, what do you say? What do I have to do to get a saw like that?


----------



## longbowch (Jan 16, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> That bottom one was the first one I ever did. Took it to Wiggs place and Scott beated it with the first one he did.
> 
> That damn Treemonkey is tough to beat.



How do you like the 461 compared to the 441cm? I’m really impressed by the one you did for me.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 16, 2018)

JTM said:


> What do I have to do to get a saw like that?


Maybe read the date this thread was created or send proper funds to Cottle Lane


----------



## maulhead (Jan 16, 2018)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Maybe read the date this thread was created or send proper funds to Cottle Lane



Look dude, I want one also!


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 16, 2018)

maulhead said:


> Look dude, I want one also!


Well yeah....duh!


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 16, 2018)

JTM said:


> Look dude, are you giving away a saw that runs like that? I saw the video but I ain’t reading all the other superfluous verbosity (responses) although I ain’t eating no damned corn dogs, whatever that was about. So, what do you say? What do I have to do to get a saw like that?



I can hook you up with one......yeppers. 



longbowch said:


> How do you like the 461 compared to the 441cm? I’m really impressed by the one you did for me.



The 441 is a smooth beast. 461 feels more old school. Toss up on performance.


----------



## longbowch (Jan 17, 2018)

Hopefully the 462 combines the best of both.


----------



## Jon1212 (Jan 17, 2018)

Who is this dude @Mastermind Worksaws? Why is he using muh friend's avatar, YouTube videos, and stuff?


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 17, 2018)

Jon1212 said:


> Who is this dude @Mastermind Worksaws? Why is he using muh friend's avatar, YouTube videos, and stuff?



Well Howdy Jon Twelve Twelve Twelve Twelve.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 17, 2018)

Jon1212 said:


> Who is this dude @Mastermind Worksaws? Why is he using muh friend's avatar, YouTube videos, and stuff?



Hey Brody!


----------



## Jon1212 (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Well Howdy Jon Twelve Twelve Twelve Twelve.


So, can you help me with my saw? I would like to be able to run a longer _blade _on it.


Adirondackstihl said:


> Hey Brody!


Hey there, Lepra-Wookie.


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 17, 2018)

Jon1212 said:


> So, can you help me with my saw? I would like to be able to run a longer _blade _on it.



Mmmmmm Hmmmmmmm


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Mmmmmm Hmmmmmmm


----------



## maulhead (Jan 17, 2018)

Jon1212 said:


> So, can you help me with my saw? I would like to be able to run a longer _blade _on it.





Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Mmmmmm Hmmmmmmm



Can you do a build thread on it?


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 17, 2018)

maulhead said:


> Can you do a build thread on it?



That depends. Can y'all GFYs?


----------



## hseII (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Hello?
> 
> Is this thing on?
> 
> HELLO????????



You tail me Banana Breath


----------



## hseII (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I need someone to explain the difference between a cut squish and a pop up to me.
> 
> Has it got something to do with immoral and elicit sexual behavior?



You’re Favoriteest


----------



## hseII (Jan 17, 2018)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Just tryin to prep for surgery buddy.
> I think we have a plan in place. I’m in a bit better spirits today than I was last night.
> 
> +View attachment 626052



You’d Better Be.

Don’t Make Me Get Shorty.


----------



## maulhead (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> That depends. Can y'all GFYs?



It's amazing I can feel the love rite threw the screen...


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 17, 2018)

hseII said:


> You tail me Banana Breath



Mister Banana Breath


----------



## hseII (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> That depends. Can y'all GFYs?



Not with a Depends on, you Nasty Fellow.


----------



## hseII (Jan 17, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Mister Banana Breath



I wish you’d make up your minds...


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 18, 2018)

hseII said:


> Not with a Depends on, you Nasty Fellow.



Pics of you in your Depends?


----------



## hseII (Jan 18, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Pics of you in your Depends?



Now You Want Me To Wear Won?

I Vish Voud Vake Up Vour Mind.


----------



## maulhead (Jan 18, 2018)




----------



## hseII (Jan 18, 2018)

maulhead said:


>



[emoji23][emoji23]


----------



## Mastermind Worksaws (Jan 19, 2018)

maulhead said:


>




Thread killer.


----------

