# Unionizing?



## northmanlogging (Feb 4, 2018)

Thoughts?

It was mentioned on a FB group, all sorts of Hel has been raised since.

Just you know try and keep politics out of it.


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## Bwildered (Feb 5, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> It was mentioned on a FB group, all sorts of Hel has been raised since.
> 
> Just you know try and keep politics out of it.


Those in power have used the divide & conquer trick for thousands of years, those in power are getting wealthier every year while the masses become the working poor.


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## madhatte (Feb 5, 2018)

Seems to me there was a logger's union once but I forget what it was called. I think it sort of lost steam following the layoff after the big salvage operations around Mt St Helens. That was also sort of the end of "company loggers" altogether. I remember my dad talking about it at the time but I was pretty young and didn't pay a lot of attention. He worked for the research center in Centralia, so was kind of removed from the Operations folks.


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## bitzer (Feb 5, 2018)

I tell ya what would be nice is something similar to the "crop insurance" farmers get from the govt. We have a bad year and we're sol and usually a kick in the pants for running a little heavy or something


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## Jhenderson (Feb 5, 2018)

Who's employee would you be? Company owners, managers, etc can't be in the union. I'm going to assume you operate like me. A sole proprietor. If that's the case, no union for you. As for unions in general, I'm not inclined to pay dues for the right to work. I'm happy negotiating my own contracts.


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Seems to me there was a logger's union once but I forget what it was called. I think it sort of lost steam following the layoff after the big salvage operations around Mt St Helens. That was also sort of the end of "company loggers" altogether. I remember my dad talking about it at the time but I was pretty young and didn't pay a lot of attention. He worked for the research center in Centralia, so was kind of removed from the Operations folks.



Yes. It was when the mills and big land owners had their own logging crews. PLS in Randle/Packwood had logging crews which were union as did Champion in the same area. It began to end in that area in the late 1980s when Champion sold their mill and lands. PLS did later. The mills laid everybody off for the amount of time it took to end the unions, and then reopened with less benefits available and logging was contracted out. I think the fallers were always contracted out--it was the crews and truckers who were union.

About that time, the owl stuff hit the fan and the bad times began. Champion's local crew had a yarder break through a bridge and it ended up in the Cowlitz River and right after that they canned their logging crews and sold out. I think the yarder/bridge affair might have been more of a coincidence than a cause.

I'm thinking Weyco used to be the same. Rumor had it (in the 1980s) that they were going to log off all their land around Morton and that would be it until the next crop of trees matured. We used to have to go to work in that area and it could get exciting even with a CB in the pickup. 100 loads a day were coming out on one road.

There were always the gypo loggers though. They would hope for that One Sale that would make them rich. That did happen once in a while.

Oh, and some of the mills were sold to non-timber people. The Morton Champion mill was sold to a group of lawyers who were investing. They ran it for a brief time then it was closed and torn down. The same was true for other mills--they were torn down and machinery sold off. There was no local connection for the new investor owners. It was about the time that greed became very popular.


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## Deleted member 150358 (Feb 5, 2018)

Unions have done a lot for workers. Not all great workers are great negotiators. 

Government sure isn't gonna do it for ya. They tend to side with the big donors not their constituents.

Labor laws are seldom enforced. I wonder why?


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## Jhenderson (Feb 5, 2018)

All that has what to do with the OP?


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## Deleted member 150358 (Feb 5, 2018)

If it feels good do it?


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## northmanlogging (Feb 5, 2018)

slowp said:


> Yes. It was when the mills and big land owners had their own logging crews. PLS in Randle/Packwood had logging crews which were union as did Champion in the same area. It began to end in that area in the late 1980s when Champion sold their mill and lands. PLS did later. The mills laid everybody off for the amount of time it took to end the unions, and then reopened with less benefits available and logging was contracted out. I think the fallers were always contracted out--it was the crews and truckers who were union.
> 
> About that time, the owl stuff hit the fan and the bad times began. Champion's local crew had a yarder break through a bridge and it ended up in the Cowlitz River and right after that they canned their logging crews and sold out. I think the yarder/bridge affair might have been more of a coincidence than a cause.
> 
> ...



Seems like thats how things went all over the state, I was still too young to be wholly part of it, But I remember the strikes, and the mills closing, then the Owl thing happened and that was the coffin nail for most of the smaller mills.

I feel like its coming around again though, there are a bunch of the "portable" band mill folks around here that are quickly becoming more permanent then portable.

Seems to be a bunch more gyppos around too...



sixonetonoffun said:


> Unions have done a lot for workers. Not all great workers are great negotiators.
> 
> Government sure isn't gonna do it for ya. They tend to side with the big donors not their constituents.
> 
> Labor laws are seldom enforced. I wonder why?



I agree unions had their place, but should grown adults rely on an indifferent 3rd party to negotiate something as little as a raise? If thats the case humans are in far more trouble then I thought.

Labor laws are always enforced, just not always reported.

For anyone wondering, I am not looking at hiring into a union, just curious.


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## Deleted member 150358 (Feb 6, 2018)

Wrote a long post but deleted it. No need to derail. 

Will try a labor law topic another day.


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## madhatte (Feb 6, 2018)

Unions as they were mid-20th century are pretty obviously a thing of the past. Still, the worker needs representation. I suspect that a new form of collective bargaining will arise in the very near future. Folks won't take to being held down by the 1% forever. Or, rather, I hope they won't.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 6, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Unions as they were mid-20th century are pretty obviously a thing of the past. Still, the worker needs representation. I suspect that a new form of collective bargaining will arise in the very near future. Folks won't take to being held down by the 1% forever. Or, rather, I hope they won't.



Think perhaps the power of an informed and intelligent vote could have something to do with crippling the 1%


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## northmanlogging (Feb 6, 2018)

sixonetonoffun said:


> Wrote a long post but deleted it. No need to derail.
> 
> Will try a labor law topic another day.


Derails are a good thing... usually...


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## madhatte (Feb 6, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Think perhaps the power of an informed and intelligent vote could have something to do with crippling the 1%


I sure as hell hope so. Best believe I vote!


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## slowp (Feb 6, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Think perhaps the power of an informed and intelligent vote could have something to do with crippling the 1%



I am pessimistic about that ever happening. Folks are too lazy to do fact checking and research. It's much easier and more convenient to believe what a meme tells you or to claim something is not true if you do not agree, or it might be painful to know the truth. Apparently Civics is no longer a required class in high school. Higher education is made out to be evil, and well, we know the rest. 

The race to the bottom will continue, with folks unwilling to see that they are working/voting against themselves.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 6, 2018)

People are gullible, A clean cut man in a suit, can steal their grandma's house and leave them feeling good about it. A few hard to comprehend words like "fiscal" "responsibility" "net growth" and folks be wetting their pants to do what ever they say.

Hence never trust a man in a suit.

Now I ain't never been to no higher learnin place, (unless you count playing punk rock on a college campus?) So I don't really understand the value of a college edumacation.

But my many friends that have gone, certainly make better life decisions than I do, well most of em...

I do think that there needs to be a more positive view on going to a trade school, or learning a trade on the job, there almost seems to be a classism about working with ones hands? But then many who do manual labor are ignorant asses so?


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## slowp (Feb 6, 2018)

Yup, we need to respect folks who do manual labor also. We shouldn't put either down. I'm just alarmed at the trend going to make colleges only teach what the job market needs. Public colleges, that is. If one is passionate about art history, one should be able to study it. 

I'm the product of a community college, plus a 10 week forest engineering course. I guess that's kind of a trade school. The trade schools need to get the word out. I only hear about the unscrupulous ones.


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## madhatte (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm also a community college graduate, as well as a state college graduate, as well as a military guy. Turns out the military training was the most useful, as it was mostly hands-on "trade school" stuff, except all the damn physics. If I'd known that when I was 18, I'd have gone to a trade school in the first place and not wasted all that time and money. But, of course, there's a million kinds of pressure to pursue academia. I stopped just short of applying for grad school because I was sick and tired of academia and wanted to get something DONE for once instead of farting around with peer review. That's not to say that I don't value the scientific method and the peer review process -- on the contrary, I believe that's how we gain and maintain confidence in our decisions regarding matters of nature. Rather, I just got tired of participating. I'd much rather have dirt under my fingernails than a tie around my neck.


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## Odog (Feb 7, 2018)

I went to college, I have a bachelors degree in business management with a minor in computer science. My education was a byproduct of playing football, but earned my education nonetheless. I have always worked labor jobs, always loved getting dirty and doing the work, so when I got a job using my degree, I quickly found out that it wasn't the kind of thing I wanted to spend my life doing. So I found a good job that I get to do the physical work I like, getting dirty and being happy. 

As for unions, I'm not a fan. I've been on jobs where the general contractor is a union company. I've seen their operator blow a hose on the hoe, which stopped 3 haul trucks and a water truck for 2 1/2 hours while they wait for the machanic to come out and change the hose for them. All the while getting paid $38 an hour to stand around wasting time. I asked the operator why he didn't change it himself, said it wasn't his job. Didn't make sense to me to have 5 guys standing when anyone of them could have changed the hose in half an hour.

But that's just my take on it, and one reason I get a sour taste when it comes to unions.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 7, 2018)

Odog, good to see ya

Assuming you can still count to 20 and yer hearing isn't gone?


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## Odog (Feb 7, 2018)

I still have all my digits, but my hearing is getting more "selective" according to my daughters. 
I've been out of town for the last few months, which has made me kinda grouchy, so I've been staying quiet.


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## madhatte (Feb 7, 2018)

Odog said:


> I asked the operator why he didn't change it himself, said it wasn't his job. Didn't make sense to me to have 5 guys standing when anyone of them could have changed the hose in half an hour.



I work for the gub mint and HOO BOY are there ever some of those types around. Fortunately, there's plenty of us dirty-hands types, too. I guess technically I've got union representation but I'm not paying dues and I'm also not asking them for anything.


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2018)

Yup. You have representation but can't go on strike. What that union does best is puts pressure on lawmakers when they threaten to mess with retirement benefits, salaries, etc. They have been going to bat for a very long time about firefighters and permanent seasonals. Probably still are. Otherwise, it's pretty useless. 

The trouble with the gubmint is that somebody, somewhere, has done something seriously stupid so a rule was made, and sometimes a certification must be gotten. I tried to be very secretive about doing some road brushing when I had spare time. Shhhhhhh.


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## madhatte (Feb 8, 2018)

slowp said:


> The trouble with the gubmint is that somebody, somewhere, has done something seriously stupid so a rule was made, and sometimes a certification must be gotten.



That is exactly right. There are two rules that run the show, which are almost 100% contradictory but not quite, which is why it's so confusing and frustrating:

1) the stupid will be punished
2) the punishment will continue until morale improves


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## Skeans (Feb 15, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Seems to me there was a logger's union once but I forget what it was called. I think it sort of lost steam following the layoff after the big salvage operations around Mt St Helens. That was also sort of the end of "company loggers" altogether. I remember my dad talking about it at the time but I was pretty young and didn't pay a lot of attention. He worked for the research center in Centralia, so was kind of removed from the Operations folks.


Weyco still has company union sides down here on both sides of the river not sure of which union or how many crews, last year at OLC I know they had some new Tigercat stuff for the Coosbay sides.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## henrysforest (Dec 30, 2020)

I have been a union member all my life in Aus , only way to go as an employee working at a factory , fat chance of getting a raise as an individual , as long as the rich people are in control , good luck , all governments use the dividing method , slowly destroying the union movement , the capitalist system is actually the feudal system , the rich are the kings and queens and we are the peasants , the only real difference now in most western country's , is they pay us a little more , so they don't have rebellions . cheers Henry


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## Jhenderson (Dec 30, 2020)

I’d shovel manure with a tea spoon before I’d pay a union rep to ride around getting paid while he told me I had to walk a picket line.


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 30, 2020)

Cheers back at you Henry!


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## Bwildered (Jan 1, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> I’d shovel manure with a tea spoon before I’d pay a union rep to ride around getting paid while he told me I had to walk a picket line.


Some people could be shovelling poo with a teaspoon & paying a company for the privilege, before they worked out they needed a union


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## anlrolfe (Jan 1, 2021)

Asplundh tree trimmers organize recently here in Kentucky.
Yah, you pay dues but don't Lawyers have the BAR, doctors and dentists have the AMA. There are many trades that have group memberships that gain them representation.
Someone once said if you're not at the table when the plans are laid then you're the meal.
In all honesty, I'm not sure how this would fit into a small or single operator scenario. It's not like you're going to abuse yourself and complain about how to manage yourself, that's your wife's job.
If you want to know why Unions are important just look to history, the coal fields and mines UMWA and sweatshops, Triangle Waste Coat factory fire., Look to the Grange movement, the original "Farmers Union". When we undervalue the fruits of our labor, we diminish our neighbors as well. Many Grange Halls and membership ran parallel with Masonic Halls often using the same meeting spaces.
Why have unions failed?
1) People forget that it's about us not me. We are selfish
2) Unions have a duty to protect workers, even if they are POS. In the Marine Corps we had a phrase "police your own". That's still possible but there's procedural maneuvering to document that a termination is just and fair.
So, is it worth it? Read the history.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 1, 2021)

The BAR and the AMA do not represent their members, they police them. As you stated a union protects the worst and bleeds the rest. I can’t wait til the whole country goes ” Right to Work”. A valuable employee will then be able to negotiate their own deal while those who just put in their time will have to settle for whatever the union provides.


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## anlrolfe (Jan 1, 2021)

More me, me, me, me
We is a long forgotten word in this country. The only thing that you'll negotiate is your way out the door because there's plenty right behind you who'll do it faster, cheaper and throw all caution to the wind.
You are a commodity, a tool to your employer and if they can go to "Labor World", the "Harbor Freight" of worker rental they'll get a cheaper tool and throw them away when you're all used up. Regardless of Union/Independant a real employer will invest in training after all, our skills and knowledge are what sets us apart. If you're "neck down" you've got a hard row to hoe in life.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 1, 2021)

So I should accept less than I deserve so less competent or energetic individuals can be protected by a union? Even if I agreed with your premise of me being no more than a tool( which I do not) a better tool costs more but proves it’s worth when used. Think SnapOn vs Harbor Freight. I’ve never had a problem being paid what I requested for the value I brought to an employer. Maybe you should work a little harder at being an asset rather than a liability. It’s never failed to work for me. But then again I’m sure any employer will recognize your disposition when you walk through the door and treat you accordingly.


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## sean donato (Jan 1, 2021)

Just joining a union work force has given me an interesting perception on things, we are a right to work business, not allowed to picket, and the union fees are minimal. The company retains complete rights over weather or not you get fired. The union can have something to say, but from past bad apples, they havent lasted. What the union does do for us, I gives the United voice for benefits and pay. We get paid a reasonable rate for being mechanics. Not high, but not low either, have average healthcare plan, and a decent retirement. Some days I feel over paid and others under paid. Just how it goes sometimes. I'm still not 100% about the union and its function, but it hasn't been a terrible thing this far. I have no experience with any other unions as this is the first I've been in on, but it largely is just a communication ambassador for the workers here. Not a whole lot else. This is a contract year so it will be interesting to see what comes of it in these odd times.


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## Husky Man (Jan 1, 2021)

Once upon a Time, Long, LONG Ago, in a place Far, FAR Away, Unions had their place, and there was a need for them.

Now Days, the Unions often do more Schitt to the Employees, than what they are supposed to be Protecting the Employees FROM.

I was in the Teamsters (Local 162) Many years ago, convinced me that I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that needed a union

When I drove for the Foam plant, the production workers were trying to get a union in, I read a copy of the union rules and handbook, the union was a Business unto itself, it was Much more concerned about itself, than it’s Working Members (Union MANAGEMENT Staff, Now THAT was DIFFERENT). There were all kinds of ways that the union could Fine and Punish members for simply legitimately Criticizing the union, I worried much more about what the UNION might do to us than I ever did about what the company might do to us. I can ***** and Bellyache with the Best of my Fellow drivers, and drivers are Known for their ability to B&B, that company wasn’t Perfect, but I was Hoping that it would be my retirement job, Sadly they sold the plant I worked out of.
The Union they were trying to get in was the same union that represents the Boeing Aircraft Machinists. Not to denigrate my former fellow employees, but there was NO WAY that the Union was going to get Foam Cutters the same wages as machinists producing Aircraft Components, that simply wasn’t going to happen, regardless of what the Union Promised the employees.

Thankfully, some actually READ the union rules handbook, and saw reality, and the union wasn’t voted in.

My brief experience as a union member, and reading what the union wanted from the foam plant workers was enough for me, I have no desire to enslave myself that way

Doug


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## anlrolfe (Jan 1, 2021)

By trade I'm an Electrician. Construction, in particular Industrial Construction and Maintenance is an arena in which you've got to prove what you can do every day and at the end of that job you've got to prove it all over again on the next. Any day can be a layoff or reduction in force. I secure my place with my Knowledge, my Skills, and my can do Attidude but if there are grievances I've got representation whose got my back. I got my start with electrical theory in the USMC then further trained through the JATC Apprenticeship system, an IBEW/NECA cooperation that goes back to the end of WWII. The school that I went through was member funded, a means of passing the torch to the next generation. Think on that for a moment, member funded. All I ever had to pay for was my books, no tuition and no student debit but I can make as much or more than an Engineer with what I know and what I can do with my hands. I'm sorry than turning screws in a factory or injecting foam didn't work out but my Unions has got my back.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2021)

As stated before unions did us all huge favor, the IWW (wobblies) even the Teamsters back in the day, took a beating and lost a lot of lives to gain basic rights we don't even think about today. 

However, many unions have lost sight of their original purpose, the Boeing machinist union, Teamsters, operating engineers being some of the worst offenders, they have become corporations themselves and no longer represent the workers, sure most of those guys make big money. Teamsters and Operating Engineers especially, in that they have pushed for state and national laws regarding government contracts, so they pushed the pay scale to obscene rates, and if you want to bid on a gov job, you have to pay your non union crews the same rates as the union crews, which is absolute bull ****. 
As for Machinist unions et al. Machining has steadily gone automated, while the trend around here is to go union. And it comes down to large shops treating employees as numbers, produce or we'll find someone that will do the same for less. The automation is cheaper then human hands, reliable, always shows up, rarely on drugs, doesn't ***** about how much its making etc. So the writing is on the wall for the big factory workers everywhere, and has been for some time. 

I'm not pro "right to work" as there is still many unions that have priorities and treat their workers very well. But I'm not pro union either, largely because my experience with union labor has been less then positive, bunch of lazy fat ****s that constantly refuse to do work because "its not in my description" drag their feet so they guarantee overtime, and in general produce **** work, cause like FU man call my union steward...

At the same time outfits like Wallmart and Amazon, desperately need union representation, pay their people **** wages, work them just enough to not get any benefits or be eligible for a raise, then if you *****, its too the curb with ya. Meanwhile, Microsoft, that also is non union, pays very well, has all sorts of random benefits like nap rooms... (yes nap rooms). Its a complex issue

Also I might add that the big unions, like to spout off about "skilled union labor"... I'm still trying to figure out where the skills they talk about went... The unions themselves encourage laziness, not directly, but through ******** like seniority programs, so the ass hat that has been there longer gets the good pay, and is exempt from layoffs so sir asshat just bides his time doing the same dumb **** until his early retirement and fat pension kicks in, regardless of skill level, all sir asshat needs to do is show up on time and keep his mouth shut and he can ride out his 40 years of sub par work. All while being very proud of his mindless union job...


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2021)

anlrolfe said:


> By trade I'm an Electrician. Construction, in particular Industrial Construction and Maintenance is an arena in which you've got to prove what you can do every day and at the end of that job you've got to prove it all over again on the next. Any day can be a layoff or reduction in force. I secure my place with my Knowledge, my Skills, and my can do Attidude but if there are grievances I've got representation whose got my back. I got my start with electrical theory in the USMC then further trained through the JATC Apprenticeship system, an IBEW/NECA cooperation that goes back to the end of WWII. The school that I went through was member funded, a means of passing the torch to the next generation. Think on that for a moment, member funded. All I ever had to pay for was my books, no tuition and no student debit but I can make as much or more than an Engineer with what I know and what I can do with my hands. I'm sorry than turning screws in a factory or injecting foam didn't work out but my Unions has got my back.


The IBEW is one of the good ones, our local utilities are part of it, as well as any elekchicken worth the name sparky. 

Though I'm not real hip on them demanding a 2 year apprenticeship, usually around here unpaid... its the unpaid part I have a problem with especially since the apprentices usually do most of the work. While the "journeyman" yells at them calls them names and ****s off the rest of the day... (at least thats been my experience...)


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## anlrolfe (Jan 1, 2021)

Unpaid?
Never heard of such a thing...
Our apprentices get paid for 100% time on the job. School time is another matter. Our Apprentices have 22 8-hr days of regular class per year and a few night/weekend sessions for their Associates in Applied Science Degree, Safety, or other specialized training. Some Lineman have specialized hands-on training that can only be accomplished in the field doing work in Sub-Stations, HighVoltage Transmission(above35Kv) or Distribution work(2,001-35Kv). I'm not familiar with their training and a portion of that may count as school but I tend to believe that their OJT is at a percentage based on what step/stage/rate they are ranked at. For our contractors, they know that certain percentage of the work is menial and matching that to an Apprentices year/rank is both appropriate and cost effective.
In short, minus school, I've ALLWAYS been paid on the job which should make OJT an even more appealing environment to learn in.


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## Bwildered (Jan 2, 2021)

Those that oppose unions & think they can individually negotiate the best deal for themselves a common skilled job , have vertually no understanding about the history of the labour market, dills like that are preyed on with glee by corporations or greedy sociopathic types, that believe everyone was put on earth to satisfy only their wants & needs to further themselves , with absolutely no consideration for anything else. 
There are some absolute corrupt scumbags running unions, who aren't quite refined enough to make it into politics, like their white collar cousins, but the corrupt ones of either pool are cut from the same cloth.


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## Woodslasher (Jan 2, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> As stated before unions did us all huge favor, the IWW (wobblies) even the Teamsters back in the day, took a beating and lost a lot of lives to gain basic rights we don't even think about today.
> 
> However, many unions have lost sight of their original purpose, the Boeing machinist union, Teamsters, operating engineers being some of the worst offenders, they have become corporations themselves and no longer represent the workers, sure most of those guys make big money. Teamsters and Operating Engineers especially, in that they have pushed for state and national laws regarding government contracts, so they pushed the pay scale to obscene rates, and if you want to bid on a gov job, you have to pay your non union crews the same rates as the union crews, which is absolute bull ****.


I've got a neighbor who was in an Operating Engineers union in the 80's, and 90's, possibly even longer and he has stories of the union trying to screw him or other people over. There's one story where a guy my buddy worked with was welding something on a piece of equipment and his welder's power cord was too short for him to reach part of the thing he was welding, so he was pressured by the union site managers into cutting prongs off of an extension cable with the wrong plug to make it work so he could finish the job and the tractor could get back to work. At the time he didn't know that the mis-matched plugs caused in the iron deck he was working on to become electrified, and as soon as the welder arced, he was turned into a human electrical conduit. After they shut the power off so they could take him to the hospital, my buddy went to rush him to the nearest hospital but the union guys tried to get him to take the guy to a union joint to get looked over there instead. He told 'em to go to hell, this guy needs to go to proper hospital asap, even if his story will hurt the union. The guy lived, but his brain was permanently f-ed up. (This is my re-telling it based off of my memory so if there are flaws in the story, that's my fault as I know next to nothing about welding)


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2021)

Bwildered said:


> Those that oppose unions & think they can individually negotiate the best deal for themselves a common skilled job , have vertually no understanding about the history of the labour market, dills like that are preyed on with glee by corporations or greedy sociopathic types, that believe everyone was put on earth to satisfy only their wants & needs to further themselves , with absolutely no consideration for anything else.
> There are some absolute corrupt scumbags running unions, who aren't quite refined enough to make it into politics, like their white collar cousins, but the corrupt ones of either pool are cut from the same cloth.


exactly.

Just don't trust anyone in a suit. including at weddings and funerals

edit: cowboy hats too... unless they are in fact from texas or actively wrangling cattle... even then keep an eye on em... wait no F it don't trust anybody in a cowboy hat.

edit mkII: Just don't trust anyone... ever, not even your mother.


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## madhatte (Jan 2, 2021)

Y'all, I gotta tell you this is the best and most civil political discussion I've seen on here in a good while, thank you and keep up the good work.


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## Bwildered (Jan 2, 2021)

Presently in our country the construction Union are pushing for a 35 hr week, something white collar workers achieved decades ago , yet has been eroded away & the net gain from their loss deposited in offshore tax havens , by the fabulously über wealthy , who actually don't need anymore wealth, the not so hilarious thing is the notion that has been ingrained Into the populous by the hole system , that life should be a struggle to survive & if a group pools their resources to get a fairer deal, people who are brainwashed then start trying to bring down their own kind, it defies logic that they would support what is basically the wrong team. I'll tell you what, those at the top of the heap must thank their lucky stars they have people around like that , supporting their cause for free, to help them keep the imbalance of wealth firmly in their bank accounts.


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## triptester (Jan 2, 2021)

Definition of a union, people coming together for a common purpose. People tend to only think of labor unions, but businesses have unions although they go by different names. Business associations, lake associations, subdivision associations, trade associations, oil cartels, PAC's, and political parties. All these groups have a common purpose and either directly or indirectly require dues. The same businesses that are against labor unions join together, form a union, to fight labor unions.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 2, 2021)

Not exactly. Nobody is forced to join a business association, trade association, PAC, or political party in order earn a living in their chosen field or work for any particular employer.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Not exactly. Nobody is forced to join a business association, trade association, PAC, or political party in order earn a living in their chosen field or work for any particular employer.


Try being a doctor, lawyer, electrician, plumber, longshoreman, ship wright (or any job building ships).


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## Dcsco (Jan 2, 2021)

Some trades have highs and lows due to economic cycles. Take painters, during a contraction, people have to take other jobs. The union steals their accumulated benefits. They are shared with those that manage to stay in the trade. Iron workers do better by providing prorated benefits to those that leave the trade.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 2, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Try being a doctor, lawyer, electrician, plumber, longshoreman, ship wright (or any job building ships).


For which of those careers is one required to join a trade association, business association, PAC , or political party. Be specific as to which job and which of the aforementioned groups.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> For which of those careers is one required to join a trade association, business association, PAC , or political party. Be specific as to which job and which of the aforementioned groups.


Doctors-AMA issues a medical license, Lawyer the BAR system, Electrician-IBEW is in charge of licenses, Plumbers have a similar union thing but I don't know the name of it, Note the State or Fed do not have any control over these licenses, but have written laws stating you need one, the only way to get one is through those associations and unions. Sure you can set up shop and get to work on your own, but to maintain your license you still need to pay union/association dues, and pass the tests administered by these associations and unions, all while being self employed. 

Longshoremen and shipwrights both are dominated by unions, You simply are not allowed to waltz on down the docks and just start working for whoever, you will likely be ran out of town or worse.

For awhile in California at least machine shops had the same sort of racket going, even the owner operated outfits had to pass "union credentials" Logging outfits attempted some of this ********, but Gyppo's told them exactly where they could stick it and carried on... "sometimes a great notion" (Ken Kesey) in the book talks about this at great length, and was the premise of the entire story, the unions wanted full control of production, while the stamper clan just wanted to get to work. Part of the reason Unions in loggin went the way of spotted owls, the independent and gyppo outfits didn't care about unions cause we are getting paid on our production, not our hours, all the unions did was get in the way of production without even really benefiting the workers.

As for any trade associations, if you want to start shipping things overseas, or even really shipping things domestically, you will need to be part of some sort of association, purely for logistics, let alone access to ports, ports I might add controlled by longshoremen unions that can and will refuse to unload from non union or non association trucks/barges/boats/trains/planes/wagons, Granted I'm talking large scale shipping not a few loads of logs to a local mill, but if you want to haul say groceries across state lines... it gets complicated quickly


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## Skeans (Jan 2, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Doctors-AMA issues a medical license, Lawyer the BAR system, Electrician-IBEW is in charge of licenses, Plumbers have a similar union thing but I don't know the name of it, Note the State or Fed do not have any control over these licenses, but have written laws stating you need one, the only way to get one is through those associations and unions. Sure you can set up shop and get to work on your own, but to maintain your license you still need to pay union/association dues, and pass the tests administered by these associations and unions, all while being self employed.
> 
> Longshoremen and shipwrights both are dominated by unions, You simply are not allowed to waltz on down the docks and just start working for whoever, you will likely be ran out of town or worse.
> 
> ...



At least in Oregon the state gives out licenses not the unions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anlrolfe (Jan 3, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> ... Note the State or Fed do not have any control over these licenses, but have written laws stating you need one, the only way to get one is through those associations and unions.


BS - most states use Independant Testing Agencies like Pearson Vue or Pro-V testing agencies. These 3rd Party tests are accredited. If you pass the test you submit the results to the State Licensing division. If you can't pass the test you don't know your trade, it's that simple. Just because you know $#!+ runs down hill doesn't mean you're qualified to be a plumber if you don't know codes and standards for safety compliance.



northmanlogging said:


> but to maintain your license you still need to pay union/association dues, and pass the tests administered by these associations and unions, all while being self employed.


BS - this means that those states would have 100% Union membership and that's not the case anywhere!!!
Maintaining union affilliation And maintaining a state license are two totally seperate issues. Some Unions require that to take certain referrals(job assignments) you need to prove qualification and that typically means a state license.

As to waltzing into a job, most unions have provisions to evaluate an individual based on their job requirements and assign a job classification based on skill level. This happens of our local level on a regular basis. Often it puts the burden on an individual to perform to an expected skill level. If deficiencies are addressed opportunity may be given for additional update training and opportunity to requalify later.
My observation, to use an old phrase, "I wish I could buy 'em for what they're worth and sell 'em for what they think they're worth".

I like to ask, "Do you carry your ticket or does your ticket carry you"?


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## Bwildered (Jan 3, 2021)

anlrolfe said:


> BS - most states use Independant Testing Agencies like Pearson Vue or Pro-V testing agencies. These 3rd Party tests are accredited. If you pass the test you submit the results to the State Licensing division. If you can't pass the test you don't know your trade, it's that simple. Just because you know $#!+ runs down hill doesn't mean you're qualified to be a plumber if you don't know codes and standards for safety compliance.
> 
> 
> BS - this means that those states would have 100% Union membership and that's not the case anywhere!!!
> ...


You can't be a practicing doctor , dentist or lawyer or engineer or a myriad of other professions without being a paid up member of the respective association, and the associations sets recommended fees & charges, it appears some have just been indoctrinated to believe that associations for blue collar workers are bad, for reasons unexplainable to those who can see the light


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## anlrolfe (Jan 3, 2021)

Kind of sounds like the top tier is elitist? How does "right to work" apply to them(Doctors & Lawyers)? It doesn't....

If I wanted to be a doctor or lawyer, could I just sleep at a Motel-6
Maybe pull a Rand Paul and create my own certification group so that I can be "board certified".
Certified and Qualified don't go hand in hand.

Now let's talk about the working class and licenceure...

What would a CPA (cert pub accountant) be? After exams what organizations and training are they required to maintain? What about Electricians and Plumbers. I have to document 6hrs of continuing education to renew my license. There are many avenues that I could take in order to do this ranging from computer based, community college, contractor sponsored and various safety and code based education. None of this is union specific but I choose to complete this training through our Unions Apprenticeship school.

I believe we will see an uptick in Apprenticeship Training and that true hands-on paired with practical knowledge and theory makes the most successful tradesmen. Labor is something that can't be imported. Even if construction components were modular fabrications from China, someone's got to assemble and troubleshoot what's here.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 3, 2021)

AMA is voluntary. The State issues the lic. The BAR is a nationwide licensing and enforcement agency, not an association. They have no control over what is charged for fees or compensation. After that every other example you cite is a UNION. Unions were not the subject of my last post. Business associations, PACS, and political parties were. None of which can you be forced to join in order to work. That only comes with a Union and a closed shop. Afraid you were off the mark, again.


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## anlrolfe (Jan 3, 2021)

Let me say on the topic of associations and association fees, I agree that these are "DUES" regardless of what you call them.

So, what does a person get for their dues? A voice at the table. My contract has negotiated full family medical with a low deductible, HRA allowance, (dental and vision are on my nickle), retirement contribution 22% of my package rate (currently MassMutual) (this is my money, not the contractors), and top dollar on the hour.

"Associations" are typically independent and governed by the elite versus Unions who typically promote from within their working class establishment.

Associations are not bound by DOL(Dept of Labor) in the same ways Unions are. I'll leave this here because going further bounds on politics.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 3, 2021)

They may be dues but they are not compulsory. You don’t have to join to work.


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## triptester (Jan 3, 2021)

The lakes near my cottage have lake associations that set rules for what you can and can't do on or with your property. If you want to own property there you have to pay association fees ranging 400-600 dollars a year.
Doctors are required to join affiliated medical groups in order to use a hospital's facility.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 3, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> AMA is voluntary. The State issues the lic. The BAR is a nationwide licensing and enforcement agency, not an association. They have no control over what is charged for fees or compensation. After that every other example you cite is a UNION. Unions were not the subject of my last post. Business associations, PACS, and political parties were. None of which can you be forced to join in order to work. That only comes with a Union and a closed shop. Afraid you were off the mark, again.


Try practicing medicine without certification, which you can only get after a 8yrs college and 2 years internship at a hospital, hospitals are almost all union, a union at its roots is a political organization and association of like minded folks. The AMA is just a great big union, that controls who, when, and what gets done medically, right or wrong. 

The Bar system is not actually covered by states, but independent lawyers elected by the Bar system, not the people of each state but by member lawyers, kinda like a union isn't it. They do in fact control membership fees. 

Business associations are pretty much just for politics, usually locally focused politics, for local usually retail businesses to address city/county councils, and no you are not required to join these, as they are voluntary, which is why I didn't mention them before. There are larger asso. such as the American Loggers Council, or like I hinted at before there is one for shipping/trucking but names... I'm sure the Airlines have one too. 

As for Doctors Lawyers, Plumbers, Elechickens, and I'm sure a few more, they all have required tests of some sort to be licensed, that test almost always requires X years of internship, an internship that can only be attained from a UNION, then the test which UNIONS pushed for is GRADED BY THE UNION, and then sent on to the state for final certification, which is just slip of paper with fancy signatures. 

Not actually sure what you are getting at as far as PACS being non political, cause I understand it to mean Political Action Committees 

So yeah to be any one of the things I've mentioned, you need to be in a union, associations being unions with a bigger word, not necessarily a "closed shop" in the industrial sense, but you sure as **** are not going to just bang a sign on your door saying come on in for a discount rectal exam.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 3, 2021)

Do a little more research.
You don’t have to join the AMA to practice medicine. Period. membership is VOLUNTARY. States issue licenses, not the AMA. Understand? 
Plumbers and electricians need not apprentice with a union. They only need to show X number of hrs working under a licensed employer before being allowed to test. That test is administered by the licensing state.
The BAR isn’t a union. They don’t control employment, working conditions, salary, benefits, retirement, health and welfare, etc. Their sole reason for existence is uniform discipline, and enforcement of a code of ethics, nationwide. Discipline and ethics. Does that sound like a union?
Where exactly did I say PACS weren’t political? Please highlight that entry. I did say you needn’t join one or any political party in order to work.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 4, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Do a little more research.
> You don’t have to join the AMA to practice medicine. Period. membership is VOLUNTARY. States issue licenses, not the AMA. Understand?
> Plumbers and electricians need not apprentice with a union. They only need to show X number of hrs working under a licensed employer before being allowed to test. That test is administered by the licensing state.
> The BAR isn’t a union. They don’t control employment, working conditions, salary, benefits, retirement, health and welfare, etc. Their sole reason for existence is uniform discipline, and enforcement of a code of ethics, nationwide. Discipline and ethics. Does that sound like a union?
> Where exactly did I say PACS weren’t political? Please highlight that entry. I did say you needn’t join one or any political party in order to work.


You are doing that thing again where you don't pay attention to the answers given, or moving the goal post, its irritating.
So I'm not going to repeat myself for a third time.


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## Bwildered (Jan 4, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Try practicing medicine without certification, which you can only get after a 8yrs college and 2 years internship at a hospital, hospitals are almost all union, a union at its roots is a political organization and association of like minded folks. The AMA is just a great big union, that controls who, when, and what gets done medically, right or wrong.
> 
> The Bar system is not actually covered by states, but independent lawyers elected by the Bar system, not the people of each state but by member lawyers, kinda like a union isn't it. They do in fact control membership fees.
> 
> ...


In our country the government does not regulate doctors, the only thing they can do is lock them up if they purposely break the law, the government tried to regulate them but they the doctors voted & their AMA told the government to go take a flying jump, the government set limitations on Medicare benefit payments, but doctors charge at least double those set amounts, all because they stick together with their association (Union) & don't sell out to the lowest bidder like all the twits do in a race to the bottom.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 4, 2021)

I paid PARTICULAR ATTENTION to your answers. There’s a difference between opinion and fact. That’s why I posted. I moved nothing . I’m just holding you to the truth. Does that get in your way? Is that’s what’s irritating? The FACTS about the AMA? Or maybe about State licensing, not union licensing? Now point out where I said a PAC wasn’t political.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 4, 2021)

Your silence speaks volumes.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 4, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Your silence speaks volumes.


winters are a tough time for you aren't they. I've explained my answers, repeatedly, you simply don't understand, refuse to learn, or are illiterate. We done?


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## Jhenderson (Jan 4, 2021)

No, we’re not. 1st, Point out where I said a PAC wasn’t political. You claimed it, now show it. Ignoring your own statements won’t make them go away. Next you can explain how VOLUNTARY admission into the AMA has anything to do with a State issued medical license. That would be Each State issues it’s own medical licenses. Something you obviously didn’t understand. After that explain how training under a licensed ( non union) electrician or plumber in order to qualify to take a State issued test has anything to do with a union. After that you can explain how a disciplinary and certification ( BAR Exam) organization that has NO CONTROL over employment, hiring, firing, health and welfare, wages, or working conditions is a union. You’ve explained NOTHING. You’ve only given uninformed opinions without any rational thought as to their absurdity.
Everybody is eagerly awaiting your learned response!


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## Bwildered (Jan 4, 2021)

People that parrot the union/association thing is bad, are really just indoctrinated puppets, working for free for the other side, take a look at your nations debt clock, nearly dollar for dollar your nations profits are pouring into the pockets of the Uber wealthy, the decline of unions and membership aligns perfectly with the transfer of money which used to go to workers, the selfish self centred ones are so easily divided and controlled, and are insanely proud of being the mechanism of the decline, I was of the understanding that forced union membership ( closed shop) was illegal in most of the civilised world, maybe the mafioso still has a stranglehold on your system


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## northmanlogging (Jan 4, 2021)

Bwildered said:


> People that parrot the union/association thing is bad, are really just indoctrinated puppets, working for free for the other side, take a look at your nations debt clock, nearly dollar for dollar your nations profits are pouring into the pockets of the Uber wealthy, the decline of unions and membership aligns perfectly with the transfer of money which used to go to workers, the selfish self centred ones are so easily divided and controlled, and are insanely proud of being the mechanism of the decline


See now, unions and collective bargaining isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just believe, and I'm not alone that some, not all, unions/associations etc have gotten too much power and have lost track of their original purpose. Especially those that evolved from the old guild system of feudal Europe. They no longer represent the workers, and are running for profit of the union. 

I also believe that many proud union members, are just greedy, lazy, unimaginative cads, that are merely cogs in the wheel of industry, who have somehow figured out a way to vote for a raise every 3-7 years. While these very people do need union representation because of the reasons already mentioned.

Now in much of the world, including the USA far to many workers accept what is offered and never strive to better themselves beyond what the boss man gives them, which feeds right into the corporate greed. I think a big reason for this is that union mentality of keep your head down and we'll get a raise in do time, which only works if you're actually in a union, which for many their parents were/are so they taught the kids to not make waves and stick it out, which is no longer true, it doesn't get better unless you do something about it. 

Do I think unionization is the way forward in reversing the trend of big money getting bigger, and the poor getting poorer, maybe, but frankly I think its already played its course in that most manufacturing jobs have been automated, or sent overseas. Having a bunch of union dicks going on strike to demand better pay, is merely incentive for the corporate scum to send jobs overseas or spend more money on automation. 

We are at a tipping point, where labor is soon becoming a non commodity, and corporate scum are controlling more then their fair share of money and power. And short of a mass die off, or some very drastic law changes, I don't see it getting better anytime soon. 

All of us union/non union/self employed/independent etc ad nauseum have agreed to trade our time and energy for some sort of compensation, sadly many have stopped demanding that compensation to be fair, and for many there is no choice but to take what is offered. We as a society need to remember that our time and effort has value, if that value is not met, then our time and effort is better off spent somewhere else.


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## Bwildered (Jan 5, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> See now, unions and collective bargaining isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just believe, and I'm not alone that some, not all, unions/associations etc have gotten too much power and have lost track of their original purpose. Especially those that evolved from the old guild system of feudal Europe. They no longer represent the workers, and are running for profit of the union.
> 
> I also believe that many proud union members, are just greedy, lazy, unimaginative cads, that are merely cogs in the wheel of industry, who have somehow figured out a way to vote for a raise every 3-7 years. While these very people do need union representation because of the reasons already mentioned.
> 
> ...


The workers have been manoeuvred into a position of outright dependency on the next pay check, if it doesn't come, they are up shite creek without a paddle, because in real terms their wage growth hasn't kept up with inflation & all other living expenses, home ownership is going down because its unaffordable for a growing majority of the working class, which are now classified as the working poor.
Sure some unions get overly greedy & stupid, it's human nature , but basically they have been formed to combat greed & the sociopaths of those further up the food chain, who in some cases wouldn't be perturbed if the workers & their family's lived in cardboard boxes outside the gates of their factories & could survive on a bowl of rice a day.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 5, 2021)

Ignoring your failure to back up your accusations and statements won’t make them go away. Of course ,it’s not the first time you’ve made declarations without any knowledge. You’ve got a habit of this. Remember your false statements about Game of Logging? You had never even read the syllabus, let alone taken the course but that didn’t stop you from spreading lies about it. Keep on dodging. I’ll keep on reminding you.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 5, 2021)

Bwildered said:


> The workers have been manoeuvred into a position of outright dependency on the next pay check, if it doesn't come, they are up shite creek without a paddle, because in real terms their wage growth hasn't kept up with inflation & all other living expenses, home ownership is going down because its unaffordable for a growing majority of the working class, which are now classified as the working poor.
> Sure some unions get overly greedy & stupid, it's human nature , but basically they have been formed to combat greed & the sociopaths of those further up the food chain, who in some cases wouldn't be perturbed if the workers & their family's lived in cardboard boxes outside the gates of their factories & could survive on a bowl of rice a day.


while true, the blame rests on the greedy unions to some extent, in the 1970's and 80's many unions pushed for lavish wages and benefits, things the companies they worked for simply could not afford, something unions need to take into account before striking BTW, so lots of shops and mostly mines, shut down for upwards of years until the unions dissolved. 

Ole Ronny Reagan didn't help by quashing several unions by Presidential order, Margret Thatcher did much the same in Jolly Ole,

Wages have been stagnant ever since, while inflation has sky rocketed. Its to the point now were most folks don't even have a months savings set aside, couple that with housing being more on demand then ever, its not a good look.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 5, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Ignoring your failure to back up your accusations and statements won’t make them go away. Of course ,it’s not the first time you’ve made declarations without any knowledge. You’ve got a habit of this. Remember your false statements about Game of Logging? You had never even read the syllabus, let alone taken the course but that didn’t stop you from spreading lies about it. Keep on dodging. I’ll keep on reminding you.


your confusing ignoring with dodging. 

As for GOL, I maintain my stance that teaching to bore cut every tree is stupid, while that may not be the aim, its what is garnered by most "students" of GOL, Few if any pick up on the purpose of the program which is to teach folks to be aware of the dangers, so they don their george jetson space helmets, kevlar space suit, throw their backs out trying to start a saw while standing on it, and still attack a tree like a boy scout on meth. But I'm sure its a very good program for people who don't belong in the woods.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 5, 2021)

Your obviously dodging when you answer only part of a post. What you’re ignoring are YOUR false statements on the AMA, IBEW, BAR, plumbers and pipe fitters union, and my stance on PACs. Go ahead, pretend you never wrote any of that foolishness. It’s all here in print for eternity.


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## anlrolfe (Jan 5, 2021)

Well, that was going good right up until it wasn't....


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2021)

GOL arguments haven't showed up in here in awhile, this oughta be good.


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## windthrown (Jan 5, 2021)

How can you separate unions and politics? You simply cannot.

I was in one union once. AFL-CIO. Waste of space do nothing union people with seniority got the best jobs. Also they could not be fired, no matter how much they forked things up. Same as the union stewards; untouchable. Even if they called in sick every other day. "Go slow" was the constant union mantra. Later when I was working at GD in Sandy Eggo we engineers voted ourselves out of the stupid union there. That was so we could actually get something done! It happened right after I was hired so I did not have to join. There were 4 other unions there on that campus and they were ALWAYS one on strike or negotiating a contract or threatening to walk out. They used to bully us and rant at us in the parking lot. Stand in front of our cars so we could not leave, and that kind of crap. We could not do a hundred and one different things and we had to go through the union staff for all kinds of stuff, including taking a circuit board from one side of the lab to the other. If we dared do anything ourselves, grievances were filed. It was all about them sucking the company and the government dry. Insane rules. Insane demands. Insane benefits. Here in Portland the unions screwed themselves out of the dockyard jobs. They demanded INSANE wages (like $100 grand a year for longshoremen), so what happened? The last container shipping line simply left Portland in 2016 not to return until one South Korea company came back last year, but only once a week. So the roads here are clogged up with trucks to cover for the shipping demand. What a great idea that was to demand insane wages and force the shipping out of The Port of Portland! Way to go unions!

I have no time for unions. They are a complete waste of everything. Time, money, people, taxes, management, skills, etc. etc. Completely useless in my experience. Worse than useless in the case of GD and the Port of Portland. A great system to force US companies to move jobs overseas.


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## Bwildered (Jan 6, 2021)

windthrown said:


> How can you separate unions and politics? You simply cannot.
> 
> I was in one union once. AFL-CIO. Waste of space do nothing union people with seniority got the best jobs. Also they could not be fired, no matter how much they forked things up. Same as the union stewards; untouchable. Even if they called in sick every other day. "Go slow" was the constant union mantra. Later when I was working at GD in Sandy Eggo we engineers voted ourselves out of the stupid union there. That was so we could actually get something done! It happened right after I was hired so I did not have to join. There were 4 other unions there on that campus and they were ALWAYS one on strike or negotiating a contract or threatening to walk out. They used to bully us and rant at us in the parking lot. Stand in front of our cars so we could not leave, and that kind of crap. We could not do a hundred and one different things and we had to go through the union staff for all kinds of stuff, including taking a circuit board from one side of the lab to the other. If we dared do anything ourselves, grievances were filed. It was all about them sucking the company and the government dry. Insane rules. Insane demands. Insane benefits. Here in Portland the unions screwed themselves out of the dockyard jobs. They demanded INSANE wages (like $100 grand a year for longshoremen), so what happened? The last container shipping line simply left Portland in 2016 not to return until one South Korea company came back last year, but only once a week. So the roads here are clogged up with trucks to cover for the shipping demand. What a great idea that was to demand insane wages and force the shipping out of The Port of Portland! Way to go unions!
> 
> I have no time for unions. They are a complete waste of everything. Time, money, people, taxes, management, skills, etc. etc. Completely useless in my experience. Worse than useless in the case of GD and the Port of Portland. A great system to force US companies to move jobs overseas.


Unions or associations wouldn't be needed in a perfect world where employers were fair, honourable & equitable


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## sawfun (Jan 6, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> They may be dues but they are not compulsory. You don’t have to join to work.


You sure have to join the union where I work period. No you can elect to give the money you would pay in dues to a legit non-profit, as long as you show proof.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 6, 2021)

Review that post( 47) in its entirety. I was referring to trade associations , business associations, PACS, or political parties, not unions. I’m hoping that unlike another poster here, you’re bright enough to tell the difference between unions and the others that were mentioned.


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 11, 2021)

Unions are good. Strength in numbers, otherwise you just have to be willing to accept what company owners give you. You end up going from job to job risking everything with health insurance gaps and still not getting paid. Just look at what the trades earn in NY City.


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## Bwildered (Jan 11, 2021)

NYWoodsman said:


> Unions are good. Strength in numbers, otherwise you just have to be willing to accept what company owners give you. You end up going from job to job risking everything with health insurance gaps and still not getting paid. Just look at what the trades earn in NY City.


What do they earn?


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 11, 2021)

Bwildered said:


> What do they earn?


Local 3 and IBEW electricians make 60 dollars plus an hr with great ins and pension. Even hotel workers(Maids) make 100kyr.
Construction, plumbers all about the same. Fireman, cops sanitation retire at 100k a year.


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## Husky Man (Jan 11, 2021)

NYWoodsman said:


> Local 3 and IBEW electricians make 60 dollars plus an hr with great ins and pension. Even hotel workers(Maids) make 100kyr.
> Construction, plumbers all about the same. Fireman, cops sanitation retire at 100k a year.


You NEED to make $100,000/year in NYC, the price of real estate, and the cost of living are ridiculous 

It is a viscous circle, increase wages, the cost of everything goes up, so the workers want another wage increase to offset the prices of goods going up, wages go up (Maybe) prices go up again, and so do any taxes on Income, the wages may go up, but spending power goes Down 

Uncle Sam sure Smiles on April 15th though 

Doug


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## Bwildered (Jan 11, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> You NEED to make $100,000/year in NYC, the price of real estate, and the cost of living are ridiculous
> 
> It is a viscous circle, increase wages, the cost of everything goes up, so the workers want another wage increase to offset the prices of goods going up, wages go up (Maybe) prices go up again, and so do any taxes on Income, the wages may go up, but spending power goes Down
> 
> ...


And without their unions they would get screwed down & down , it is a viscous circle, greedy sociopathic types create the need for unions, right now they are shiteing their pants worried about major civil unrest in the US, the clever ones aren't even in your country at the moment, they are living the dream in New Zealand ,Tahiti, Australia during the covid pandemic, safe as houses


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2021)

Vicious... just saying, a viscous circle is something entirely different lol

you folks are hinting at my major dislike of unions, union wages go up, no one elses does, but price of homes and goods goes up because the union folks can afford it... leaving the rest of us out in the rain.


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## catbuster (Jan 11, 2021)

The UA (Plumbers, Pipefitters & HVAC) paid for most of what I had up until I started working. I say the UA did because my dad made close to double what scabs did. I’ve worked for non-union outfits and even the best of them aren’t as productive as a mid-tier outfit that employs out of the halls.

As a business owner, when I was working the gas fields up in PA & NY, I was happy to bring guys in from IUOE, UA, IBEW & Carpenters/Millwrights locals. You know why? _I didn’t have to train them. _That’s a big deal. I don’t have to pay somebody to learn. I could add & subtract workforce as needed. What I got in return was an already skilled group that worked safe and were as productive in an eight hour day as the equivalent crew I had in KY did in ten. There was no cowboy ******** they’d try, my equipment was taken care of and the jobs were easier to manage.

If you guys don’t think most owners are trying to **** you, you’re terribly mistaken. And if you think you, as an individual, have any bargaining power, they’ll laugh you right out of the office.

Non-union closed shops paying union wages on public projects is called scale pay and when I was building highways we had guys who would specifically request to go do scale jobs. Even if it meant they went from running a D8 to go drive a haul truck. I fail to see that as a negative, the labor gets a better deal, even if they’re not part of the union.

Now, I can’t comment on the experience of being a union member. I worked construction for two small outfits (like max 10 employees) in a red state where unions were on the decline, and I was going to college anyway. After college I worked as a field engineer & superintendent before going out on my own.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 11, 2021)

And there’s the union mentality at its finest. “ even if they went from running a D8 to driving a haul truck” . What a kick in the —-, huh? Imagine that, doing what’s needed in exchange for a days pay. How valiant of them.


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## catbuster (Jan 11, 2021)

Left out one of my favorite anecdotes I’ve been a fan of for a long time.

Anybody ever heard of Testa Corp, Dismantling & Site Contractors? They were _the _powerhouse demolition outfit in the northeast for a while. Ran out of the Boston area, made their name as one of the primary subs doing demolition and excavating for the “Big Dig” I-95 reroute, wrecked out most of Ground Zero, old Yankee Stadium, a couple GM plants, dozens of bridges and other big, heavy things from Maine out into the Rust Belt. They had a fleet of Komatsu PC1250s, 1100s, a few 1000s, a bunch of 330-385 Cats, wheel loaders, yada.

Ol’ boy Steve Testa had a nasty habit of not liking to pay fringe benefits. So, while wrecking out a Ford plant in Wixom Michigan early last decade, almost every hall that ever sent Testa labor sued Testa Corp for unpaid fringes. Now, most people who don’t work out of a local probably won’t ever see fringes, but they’re pretty nice to have.

It ended up putting Testa out of business, but in the end the employees got paid and the hall put them on other work. But yeah, collective representation doesn’t work.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2021)

catbuster said:


> The UA (Plumbers, Pipefitters & HVAC) paid for most of what I had up until I started working. I say the UA did because my dad made close to double what scabs did. I’ve worked for non-union outfits and even the best of them aren’t as productive as a mid-tier outfit that employs out of the halls.
> 
> As a business owner, when I was working the gas fields up in PA & NY, I was happy to bring guys in from IUOE, UA, IBEW & Carpenters/Millwrights locals. You know why? _I didn’t have to train them. _That’s a big deal. I don’t have to pay somebody to learn. I could add & subtract workforce as needed. What I got in return was an already skilled group that worked safe and were as productive in an eight hour day as the equivalent crew I had in KY did in ten. There was no cowboy ******** they’d try, my equipment was taken care of and the jobs were easier to manage.
> 
> ...


I wonder if there is a different mindset, east coast vs west coast unions, My dealings however limited with union outfits, or former union employees, everything took twice as long, because "thats not my job description" or worse, they would claim to know how to do the job, but only find out they only knew how to do 3-4 specific jobs in the shop, and anything different would take a week of training... while they spent the first 4 days ****ing off and not learning anything. 

Could be the different unions too, the aerospace machinist union (something something association of something something machinissts) is by far the worst of the laziest wastes of o2. The local Teamsters aren't far behind. Most of the IBEW folks I've been around have been alright. A few Masons... talk about a one trick pony lol. To be honest the operating engineesrs pretty much control the major public works stuff, and them guys stay busy, so I've not yet worked with any of theml.  But I will say I can build more road then most of em by myself in 2 weeks then them jerks can in 6 weeks with a crew of 10.


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 12, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> You NEED to make $100,000/year in NYC, the price of real estate, and the cost of living are ridiculous
> 
> It is a viscous circle, increase wages, the cost of everything goes up, so the workers want another wage increase to offset the prices of goods going up, wages go up (Maybe) prices go up again, and so do any taxes on Income, the wages may go up, but spending power goes Down
> 
> ...


Yes but NY union members sell their homes in Queens, Staten Island or Long Island for 1.5 million plus and move south to enjoy very comfortable retirements. Many at a young age. So the everything is relative doesn't really work here. My Brother in Law a NYCITY firefighter retired in 2001 after 911 and has been collecting a 90k a yr pension ever since. It's simple math. Unions work for the working man. Don't let politicians pump misinformation into your heads about, Unions Bad, Evil Unions, Unions Socialist.


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 12, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> I wonder if there is a different mindset, east coast vs west coast unions, My dealings however limited with union outfits, or former union employees, everything took twice as long, because "thats not my job description" or worse, they would claim to know how to do the job, but only find out they only knew how to do 3-4 specific jobs in the shop, and anything different would take a week of training... while they spent the first 4 days ****ing off and not learning anything.
> 
> Could be the different unions too, the aerospace machinist union (something something association of something something machinissts) is by far the worst of the laziest wastes of o2. The local Teamsters aren't far behind. Most of the IBEW folks I've been around have been alright. A few Masons... talk about a one trick pony lol. To be honest the operating engineesrs pretty much control the major public works stuff, and them guys stay busy, so I've not yet worked with any of theml. But I will say I can build more road then most of em by myself in 2 weeks then them jerks can in 6 weeks with a crew of 10.


No it's not like that anymore. For unions to survive they know that their employers are making money and most union officials won't stand for slackers. It's a good balance where everyone makes out.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2021)

NYWoodsman said:


> No it's not like that anymore. For unions to survive they know that their employers are making money and most union officials won't stand for slackers. It's a good balance where everyone makes out.


seriously, come out here and spend a week with boeing... 90% of em couldn't finish an 8 hour day without asking for a nap


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## catbuster (Jan 12, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> I wonder if there is a different mindset, east coast vs west coast unions, My dealings however limited with union outfits, or former union employees, everything took twice as long, because "thats not my job description" or worse, they would claim to know how to do the job, but only find out they only knew how to do 3-4 specific jobs in the shop, and anything different would take a week of training... while they spent the first 4 days ****ing off and not learning anything.
> 
> Could be the different unions too, the aerospace machinist union (something something association of something something machinissts) is by far the worst of the laziest wastes of o2. The local Teamsters aren't far behind. Most of the IBEW folks I've been around have been alright. A few Masons... talk about a one trick pony lol. To be honest the operating engineesrs pretty much control the major public works stuff, and them guys stay busy, so I've not yet worked with any of theml. But I will say I can build more road then most of em by myself in 2 weeks then them jerks can in 6 weeks with a crew of 10.


I’d have to venture that’s correct. Where I am now the only “strong” unions left are the UA and IBEW. IUOE is pretty much a place some companies pull crane operators from. The mid-Atlantic and northeast unions, especially around NYC & Boston kick ass & take names... And don’t put up with people who don’t work.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 12, 2021)

The Boston unions are worthless hacks. They stand around and pick their a—-, not kicking anybody else’s. What else would you call anybody who demands union scale for for a drunk to run an automated freight elevator on a jobsite, breaks into storage lockers owned by another company and leaves those workers without their tools? All because they couldn’t muster a competent crew from their own local, hoisting or millwright. My reference is the big dig and 3 friends who worked for a RI based crane operator. Let’s just say the Boston outfit shut their mouths and sat on their thumbs as long as the guys I knew worked there.
Ps. Thats all in addition to the Boston union hacks that couldn’t even install roof panels in the tunnel to design spec. Same for light fixtures, guardrails, and Leaks. Documents pertaining to faulty workmanship were sealed by the court. Yup. That union kicks a—- and wont tolerate loafers alright.


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 14, 2021)

Funny alot of the same guys who complain about illegals stealing their jobs are also anti union. Makes me wonder when you see non union companies show at a job site and non of them speak English


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## Jhenderson (Jan 14, 2021)

Funny how the unions say NOTHING about illegal immigration. It all leads back to the hotel employees and restaurant union. They live on illegal immigrants. Nice try though. Come back with a legitimate comparison.


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 14, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Funny how the unions say NOTHING about illegal immigration. It all leads back to the hotel employees and restaurant union. They live on illegal immigrants. Nice try though. Come back with a legitimate comparison.


I'm sure you can provide legitimate proof that these unions have members who are here illegally. Ever hear of HB1 Visas, Nice try. For those of you who think unions are still shady organizations operated by Italy Mob figures nothing could be further from the truth. If only Washington had the oversight that unions are subjected to this country wouldn't be in the mess it's in right now


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## northmanlogging (Jan 14, 2021)

NYWoodsman said:


> Funny alot of the same guys who complain about illegals stealing their jobs are also anti union. Makes me wonder when you see non union companies show at a job site and non of them speak English


hardly, immigrants easily outwork most "native born" americans and they don't *****

Round here they tend to make a lot more then their non union "citizen" coworkers, because they get **** done. 

Also I might add, most speak at least a little english, many speak french/german/italian/russian as well as spanish English is a PITA to learn, other languages have rules that are actually followed, very few words that are spelled different but pronounced the same... i.e. yew, you, ewe. I, Eye, aye. With english you need to learn context before you can even begin to understand most of our sentences. They more then likely choose to pretend not to speak English, simply so you will just go away... 

This is tiptoeing into dangerous political waters... the kind that ends with name calling and insulting each others lack of intelligence, while I'm not a opposed to name calling, or insulting ones intelligence, doing both at the same time is unproductive.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 14, 2021)

For reference, buying the self loader log truck has been an interesting journey with a lot of immigrant labor involved, dudes are absolutely fearless. And literally laugh off near death experiences, but not stupid, they know the danger, and are careful, but do it anyway because it needs to get done. (I just haul their logs, not my zoo, not my monkeys etc, but I do have a lofty vantage point and get to yacking with the grunt laborers)

Where as Union outfits would shut everything down, have a safety meeting, then bring in a specialist, taking a week to get done what should of taken an hour.


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## NYWoodsman (Jan 14, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> For reference, buying the self loader log truck has been an interesting journey with a lot of immigrant labor involved, dudes are absolutely fearless. And literally laugh off near death experiences, but not stupid, they know the danger, and are careful, but do it anyway because it needs to get done. (I just haul their logs, not my zoo, not my monkeys etc, but I do have a lofty vantage point and get to yacking with the grunt laborers)
> 
> Where as Union outfits would shut everything down, have a safety meeting, then bring in a specialist, taking a week to get done what should of taken an hour.


Rubbish


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## Jhenderson (Jan 14, 2021)

NYWoodsman said:


> I'm sure you can provide legitimate proof that these unions have members who are here illegally. Ever hear of HB1 Visas, Nice try. For those of you who think unions are still shady organizations operated by Italy Mob figures nothing could be further from the truth. If only Washington had the oversight that unions are subjected to this country wouldn't be in the mess it's in right now


What do you want, names and addresses? 
Try the Pew Hispanic center. They report 30% of dishwashers and 20% of cooks are illegal immigrants. You’d probably prefer the H1B visa? Do You know what they’re for? Special skills and knowledge. Nobody cleaning hotel rooms or bussing tables quality’s for an H1B visa. I refer you to an outfit called ThinkProgress. Naturally they‘re a pro union outfit. They cite how since the year 2000, the AFL/CIO has adopted a stance of Blanket Amnesty for all illegal workers. Or maybe you’d rather consult the ACLU and learn about illegal immigrants in the hotel industry. Now, tell us all about all those unions complaining about illegal immigration.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 14, 2021)

NYWoodsman said:


> Rubbish


Its highly amusing, when someone uses their own observations, and experience to relate a story, and some ass hat just dismisses it off hand as false. 

Maybe there are other truths in this world then your own very limited view of the world.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 14, 2021)

Who are you going to believe, him or your own lying eyes?


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## northmanlogging (Jan 14, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Who are you going to believe, him or your own lying eyes?


Yes?


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## Tree Feller (Feb 11, 2021)

windthrown said:


> How can you separate unions and politics? You simply cannot.
> 
> I was in one union once. AFL-CIO. Waste of space do nothing union people with seniority got the best jobs. Also they could not be fired, no matter how much they forked things up. Same as the union stewards; untouchable. Even if they called in sick every other day. "Go slow" was the constant union mantra. Later when I was working at GD in Sandy Eggo we engineers voted ourselves out of the stupid union there. That was so we could actually get something done! It happened right after I was hired so I did not have to join. There were 4 other unions there on that campus and they were ALWAYS one on strike or negotiating a contract or threatening to walk out. They used to bully us and rant at us in the parking lot. Stand in front of our cars so we could not leave, and that kind of crap. We could not do a hundred and one different things and we had to go through the union staff for all kinds of stuff, including taking a circuit board from one side of the lab to the other. If we dared do anything ourselves, grievances were filed. It was all about them sucking the company and the government dry. Insane rules. Insane demands. Insane benefits. Here in Portland the unions screwed themselves out of the dockyard jobs. They demanded INSANE wages (like $100 grand a year for longshoremen), so what happened? The last container shipping line simply left Portland in 2016 not to return until one South Korea company came back last year, but only once a week. So the roads here are clogged up with trucks to cover for the shipping demand. What a great idea that was to demand insane wages and force the shipping out of The Port of Portland! Way to go unions!
> 
> I have no time for unions. They are a complete waste of everything. Time, money, people, taxes, management, skills, etc. etc. Completely useless in my experience. Worse than useless in the case of GD and the Port of Portland. A great system to force US companies to move jobs overseas.


Absolutely! Best post on this thread!


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