# Chainsawmill Cutting speed's



## Matildasmate (Oct 7, 2007)

Can anyone tell me what speed they get out of there csm , ft a minute , roughly , This could be useful info . what size cut , hp or cc and so on , also what chain angles . Im currently using WoodsmenPro(Carlton chain)2-3' a minute roughly , havn't timed it ,18-24" cut , sharpened at 15deg's x 45deg's , 91.5cc . Cheers MM


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## BlueRider (Oct 7, 2007)

*cutting speeds in walnut*

Last time I was out it was the first time with my new saw so I happened to time one of the cuts. the saw was a fresh Stihl 051 with .404 x 63 chain, the log was a 24"x 6' claro walnut, the time per cut was 8 minutes. That includes picking up and starting the saw as well as taking it off the log and setting it down. What I am trying to say is that I don't have a stop watch or another person to time me so it is somewhat ballpark. 

The 051 is 89cc and around 6 hp and runs at about 7500 rpm

I file my chains at 15 x 55 degrees. the steeper tooth may be harder to push through the cut but it lasts longer and with the 051 I have enough torque to push rocks tied to string through the log. In fact I lower the rakers down to take .040" cut per tooth and I have been thinking of increasing that to .045" on the walnut because it is so easy to mill compared to the cypress which is one of the more dificult woods I mill. having milled black acacia/blackwood I would place monterey cypress as more dificult to mill even though it is a softer wood.

I will be milling more of the same walnut all winter long so I hope to get a nice comparison of milling speeds for different widths of logs as well as with the monster saw I am building.

I am not too interested in switching to narrower chain but I am curious about how diferent angles affect cutting speeds ballanced with the time it takes to keep them sharp.


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## aquan8tor (Oct 9, 2007)

Is it the gumminess of the cypress that makes it difficult to saw?? I would think that it'd clog the teeth quick with a slower chain speed from the torque monster 051. Maybe a modified chain like the granberg would help. I'm surprised about the depth rakers being that low. I set mine somewhere around .035, I think....I'd been using the oregon guide, where each little mark equals a certain amount, and set it about where I thought that'd be. I just got a Northern 511A copy & haven't bothered to get a feeler gauge to check depth rakers.


I spent a couple afternoons this week sawing up cants of yellow pine to then slice next week with the ripsaw into siding. With regular kerf 3/8 carlton at 5deg. I was getting a cut in about 3 minutes for an 8-9 foot log with a 14-16" cut from a 32" bar, no auxiliary oiler for the pine. When I sliced the tops off a couple 6" thick cants I made with low profile chain filed at 5 deg, and a smaller 20 inch bar, I was finishing a 9' long cut in under a minute. 


I've personally found that I get less vibration out of the narrower 5 deg. angle than I did with a 10deg. angle, and it comes out definitely looking smoother. Just my .02. I thought about sharpening a few chains up at different angles and timing cuts off the same cant with the CSM for some 8/4 stock I'm going to use for a workbench top. Don't know if I'm going to get to that this week, as I made the mistake of (trying to) rolling the logs around on uneven ground by myself without a cant hook, as I'd forgotten to bring it along with me. Needless to say, I've been popping advil and tylenol like candy the past couple days.


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## BlueRider (Oct 9, 2007)

I guess I forgot to mention what kind of chain I run. The timed cuts were with Oregon ripping chain. I have a couple of loops of Granberg chain but have not noticed a significant differance in performance, time or finish, to make it worth the additional time it takes to maintain.

I havn't worked with any bald cypress but I suspect it is very different from the monterey cypress we have along the CA coast. Our cypress does have its share of sap and it certianly does gum up chains but it is just downright hard dence stuff and tough on chains. 

I recently switched to using stihl Bio+ bar oil on all the walnut I have been milling this summer and noticeed that the bar gums up significantly less than with dino oil. I am looking forward to trying the Bio+ on some of the more resinous woods. I should probably add that I run a 42" bar and an auxillary oiler.

another way of measuring depth rakers is with a good rule and a pir of dial calipers. I say a good rule becaule most of the good ones are exactly 1" wide so if you hold the rule on edge across the rakers and use the end of the dial calipers to measure the deepth from the top edge of the rule to the a tooth then subtract an inch. if I haven't explainded this very well let me know and I will try and snap a pic.


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## Railomatic (Oct 10, 2007)

All of my CSM's are fitted with 50" Cannon Superbars with a 325 nose/chain conversion, which vastly improves cutting speed, in some timbers almost twice as fast.
My mills are all driven by MS 880's and can handle full width planks without any undue stress upon the chains, which handle things very well with no breakages so far.
For a 24" plank in oak I can cut a 10 feet plank in around 8-10 minutes, using 325, and 15-18 minutes with 404, the 325 outfit will give me two extra planks in the given size log mentioned.
You can see some of my mills in action here at www.chainsawmills.co.uk.

DDS.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 10, 2007)

*Exelent info so far many thank's*

Excellent info so far guy's , *many thank's for your participation*, I am sure this info will give many member's , some sort of idea what to expect from their mill's . Cheers MM


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm with Raily- .325 chain  . Vast improvement in finish, speed and lumber yield over 3/8 and .404.

I tried it on my 72" bar once and it didnt' break but it stretched badly. I reluctantly have to use 3/8" on my 66" and 72" bars.

Here's some results from some chain testing I did a while back. This was on an 8' long water oak log I squared out to 24" wide.


Data in this order-

Pitch, Style / brand, Grind angles, Sprocket (# of pins), Kerf width, Min:Sec 


.404, full comp ripping WP, 5-60-10, 8, 3/8", 7:10

0.375, full comp ripping WP, 5-60-10, 9, 5/16", 6:45

0.375, granberg, 5-60-10, 9, 5/16", 6:55

0.325, full comp Carlton K3C, 5-60-10, 9, 9/32", 5:29


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Oct 10, 2007)

aquan8tor said:


> I've personally found that I get less vibration out of the narrower 5 deg. angle than I did with a 10deg. angle, and it comes out definitely looking smoother.



I found this to be true as well but 10 deg does cut a bit faster. I typically use 10 deg for that reason.


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## aquan8tor (Oct 11, 2007)

Aggie, where do you get your chain? I checked bailey's but they don't have any .325 rip chain. Is it a GB product?? 

I hadn't realized the speed difference with 5 and 10 deg. angles. Maybe I'll go back to 10 degrees. Have you ever tried putting weight on the mill like Malloff did? I originally thought about that for vibration, but never got around to it. I haven't read it, but I've seen a few pics from "Chainsaw Lumbermaking" where Malloff used a thick log cookie to keep the mill securely against the log surface without having to use any hands at all except to crank a hand winch-drive to pull the mill along, and a remote throttle trigger.


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## Railomatic (Oct 11, 2007)

*big bars and 325 chain*

I would like to add to my previous posting, that a bar fitted with 325 that is any longer than 50 inches does tend to stretch the chains some, 325 chain works best at 50 inches, if you use longer bars, one must be very gentle on the uptake of the throttle smoothly does it, once you are in the timber a fixed throttle is a must, I never use the hand throttle once I'm into the log, this gives a much smoother passage through the log, it you are going to use the hand throttle, then I would apt for 3/8, but never 404 because its just too wasteful, especially in a nice walnut log.

Adjusting the correct angle of cuter is another way to minimise stress on your chain, this is the norm for freshly cut logs, but a log that has been standing for several months needs and even steeper angle for cutting hardwoods, I have used zero degrees in the past on hardwood logs, oiling or cooling is the other most important senario, if the chain is too hot it will stretch what ever the chain size or type is being used.

I sometimes fit a secondary cooling water feed for cuting logs that have been standing for more than six months, this makes a big diference, if you use any of the water soluable type oils you can obtain wherever you reside, it emusifies and cools everything very nicely.

The mention of weighting the mill against the timber is not needed, if you fit a side roller to the mill, this works by letting the chain pull the mill in tight against the log and guides the whole rig along with relative ease, saving valuable strength and time, there is no point in letting the mill being slammed against the log and trying to wrestle with it to advance along the edge of the board, let the side roller do all the work not yourself, then you will have little to no bouncing of the mill against the log each time you try to slide/advance sideways.

Picture is of my side roller fitted directly below the risier post of the mill.

Raily


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## BobL (Oct 11, 2007)

aquan8tor said:


> . . . I originally thought about that for vibration, but never got around to it. I haven't read it, but I've seen a few pics from "Chainsaw Lumbermaking" where Malloff used a thick log cookie to keep the mill securely against the log surface without having to use any hands at all except to crank a hand winch-drive to pull the mill along, and a remote throttle trigger.



I realise this is not going to help those who have fixed flatbed type mills but neither a weight or a winch or pusging are necessary when milling on a slope. I was warned by many folk about the amount of energy and effort required to use a CSM. However, when I use a slope, by far the greatest amount of work I do is few seconds of lifting the mill on and off the log, and then pushing the slabs off. For irregular shaped logs (ie branch ends and lumps and bumps) I do prefer to keep my hands on the CSM to negotiate my way around these

There are of course other good reasons to use a winch, like physically moving away from the powerhead. Something to fiddle with in the future.

Cheers


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## Railomatic (Oct 11, 2007)

There are of course other good reasons to use a winch, like physically moving away from the powerhead. Something to fiddle with in the future.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

This is why I made and designed my own rail mill, this does exactly what you are thinking, it gets you away from the noise and dirt 95% of the time, setting up is very quick, about ten mins, have a look at one in action in the attachments, I'm thinking of doing a cutting list and building instructions if anyone is interested.


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## BobL (Oct 11, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> This is why I made and designed my own rail mill, this does exactly what you are thinking, it gets you away from the noise and dirt 95% of the time, setting up is very quick, about ten mins, have a look at one in action in the attachments, I'm thinking of doing a cutting list and building instructions if anyone is interested.



Count me in - here's my steel scavenged from a dumpster near my house!.
Even comes with a set of rollers!!!







Thanks Railo!

Cheers


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## Matildasmate (Oct 11, 2007)

*Nice find mate*

You got a better set of roller's than mine mate , exelent stuff . Cheers MM


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Oct 11, 2007)

aquan8tor said:


> Aggie, where do you get your chain? I checked bailey's but they don't have any .325 rip chain. Is it a GB product??
> 
> I hadn't realized the speed difference with 5 and 10 deg. angles. Maybe I'll go back to 10 degrees. Have you ever tried putting weight on the mill like Malloff did? I originally thought about that for vibration, but never got around to it. I haven't read it, but I've seen a few pics from "Chainsaw Lumbermaking" where Malloff used a thick log cookie to keep the mill securely against the log surface without having to use any hands at all except to crank a hand winch-drive to pull the mill along, and a remote throttle trigger.




I buy it from Stens (GB) at 800-765-9357. It's actually Carlton K-3 semi-chisel but they re-tag it with their numbers. Ask for Norm and tell him Jared sent you. He'll know what you are talking about.


I use bags of lead shot. You can see them in many of the pics I have posted. I have an electric winch drive mechanism in the works but hadn't had much time to work on it lately.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Oct 11, 2007)

BobL said:


> Count me in - here's my steel scavenged from a dumpster near my house!.
> Even comes with a set of rollers!!!
> 
> 
> ...



Nice score!


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Oct 11, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> This is why I made and designed my own rail mill, this does exactly what you are thinking, it gets you away from the noise and dirt 95% of the time, setting up is very quick, about ten mins, have a look at one in action in the attachments, I'm thinking of doing a cutting list and building instructions if anyone is interested.



Interested!opcorn:


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## Mad Professor (Oct 11, 2007)

066 running stihl 3/8 0.050 PMX chain on a logosol. I can rip a 16" X 12' cut in dead white ash in 2-3 minutes if the chain is sharp. This chain is the same as regular sthil PM chain but the cutter is sharpened to ca. 5 degress. As this chain is designed for smaller saws it is not recommended for bars > 25"


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## wdchuck (Oct 11, 2007)

There is so much good information, data here that the wheels in my brain are starting to smoke. I'll be busy in the workshop this fall.

Railomatic, add me to the list of interested parties, and I bet a beam from some rack shelving would make a good rail, cheap to get around here second hand.

THanks for taking the time to post your info guys, :greenchainsaw:  .

We need a milling smilie.


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## woodshop (Oct 11, 2007)

Mad Professor said:


> 066 running stihl 3/8 0.050 PMX chain on a logosol. I can rip a 16" X 12' cut in dead white ash in 2-3 minutes if the chain is sharp.



WOW... if I did the math right, that's a foot of 16 inch wide ash hardwood in 10 seconds. That's some fast milling. 

A LOT of good info in this thread from several people... I'm loving this. I never did an exact timed test, but have timed myself several times quick and dirty. Found that speed is not linear. In other words, in small stuff like 8-10 inch wide softwood, I can mill almost walking (ok, slowly walking) down the log. Seems like childs play for the saw. Double that width though, and things start to slow down a whole lot. 

Milling times? ... 395XP (94cc saw) with standard 3/8 ripping chain from Baileys on 36" bar, in 18 inch wide oak I go through about 3 seconds per inch, which is a little less than 2 ft a minute. In 24-28 inch wide oak, double that time, about a foot a minute, and then ONLY if the chain is sharp. As soon as it even starts to get dull, things slow to a crawl fast.


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## Mad Professor (Oct 11, 2007)

For me the key is to keep the bar oiled and chain sharp. If it slows down at all the chain is getting dull and it's time to sharpen. On big stuff this may be only after 2-3 passes. If I don't sharpen things get very slow, the bar gets hot, and I use a lot more mix to cut a lot less for the time the bar is in the wood.

I've heard very good things about adding a water drip/spray system to keep bar/chain temps down and will try this next.


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

I have thought it over and the best way for me to do things is by a picture guided assembly and make up as you go thing, its much quicker than writing out a whole set of drawings, here goes.

For the rail you will need two 7 foot lengths of 2 X 4 inch box section with an 
1/8" wall thickness, no longer than 7 feet per length or rail or things tend to flex a little when the going gets tough, when you have the rail cut, make sure that you have the two ends that are cut, so they go back together the same way afterwards and mark them with a center punch, so they go back exactly where they were cut apart, you can use the welded seam on the side of the box for refference.

To secure the two sections together you need to cut a through hole in the end of each 2 X 4 section.

To do this mark of two lines from the very end of the box, one at 100.00 mm and another at 170.00mm , then mark the center line in the widest edge, in my case this is 100.00mm side, then mark up so that you are left with a 70 X 55mm hole on both sides, make sure to get the opposite hole perfectly in line with the other, or things won't clamp up paralell.

To cut out the hole, I drill a 10.00mm hole in each corner and cut out the hole using a thin 1.00mm slitting or grinding disc, then tidy up the corners.

Into that hole on both sections of the rail, fits a 10.00mm thick plate, which has a 20.00mm hole drilled in the centre, to which a 20.00mm all thread fits through to clamp the two sections of the rail together.

Fit the clamping plates inside the hole and weld down either side to hold them in place,make sure that the plates are flush with the outside of the rail.

And then weld in place on one of the sections two locating spigotts to line up the two ends of the box section, weld these in place from the inside of the rail as in the photo, thes are important and will keep everything in line,
make sure that the spigotts are a good slide fit when you put the two ends of the box together.

More to follow soon


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

*Rail-O-Matic CSM*

The next part is the two rail ends, or riser posts, these consist of two 
50 X 50mm or 2 X 2" pieces of box section with an 3.00-1/8" wall thickness, they have a slots cut into one side for an internal riser block and two allen bolts to slide up and down, which lifts the whole system and rail up and down for thickness of cut adjustments.
On the bottom of each post fits two adjustable feet which also allow the CSM to be tilted and lifted for extra adjustment on uneven ground.

Take a 1.40 mtr or 55.00" length of 50 X 50 X 3.0 or 2 X 2 x 1/8" box section mark off two lines from one end one at 35.00mm and the other at 135.00mm, centre punch and drill two 10.00mm holes in the center of the box on the lines, this is where the slot will be cut, again using a thin slitting/grinding disc and the aid of a steel straight edge clemped to the box, cut a 10.00 or 3/8" slot between the two holes.

For the two extra adjusting feet you require a 16.00" length of 1-5/8" dia tube now cut a 2.00" slot at 3/8" wide in the bottom of each tube, then drill two holes 3/8" 1.00" from the bottom opposite the slot for a 3/*" sloid rod to fit through and weld up the ends, see pictures, then drill a series of 5/16" holes at 1-1/2" intervals along the tube for a pin to be fitted, on the bottom of your riser post drill another 5/16" hole one inch from the bottom of the post so a pin can fit right through the tube and box, this will be your extra adjustment for uneven ground.

Now make two 1/4" thick discs 10.00" in dia, and fit a 4 X 2 x 3/8" flat strip to the midle of the disc with a V cut into the middle for the tube to sit in place, this is removeable for transport, see pictures.


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

More pictures for the Rail-O-Matic CSM


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

On top of each riser post is a top plate, adjustment handle and rope guides in the form of two D shackles.

For each top plate ake two 2 X 6 x 1/4" thick flat plates, drill a 3/8" hole in the middle, now mark off 5/8" across from either end of the plate and drill a 3/8" hole,for the D shackles to fit through.

Now mark off from either end at 2.0" and cut through about 2/3rds of the way through the plate and bend the two ends down to about 30 degrees and then weld along the cuts, then weld along the slot you have left to strengthen.

The top handle is made from a piece of flat bar 1" X 5" x 1/4", drill and thread a 3/8" hole for a 40.00" all thread to screw into, and weld a 4" X 5/8" solid round bar at the other end for the handle.

The topplate locates inside the riser post via a piece of angle that it drilled and welded underneathe the top plate and then is held in place via a smal bolt through the side of the riser post.

The inner angled plate is made from, 2 X 2 X 1/4" angle, that is cut down to 
1-3/16" on one side and then welded the the underside of the top plate and made to fit inside the top of the 2 X 2" riser post, and secured via a 1/4" blot from the outside, see photo's.


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

The next two parts are the only pieces which I have made for me, which we will deal with next posting.


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## stonykill (Oct 12, 2007)

*too many variables*

I can't pin down a milling time. I did a little milling yesterday, and timed the best I could. The 1st piece was a rock maple cant I had previously made from a log. It measured 18 inches acrossed. I was 3 to 4 seconds per inch, depending on the section of log I was in. Some sections of it were harder and just milled slower. I then milled a 16 inch pine cant, after resharpening the chain. Just over a second an inch. 

I can mill 2 pine logs, roughly the same diameter, and have totally different milling times. Depends on knots, sap, density of the particular log. 

Saw for this test 82cc Pioneer P51, 24 inch bar, standard Baileys low profile ripping chain. 

I always reduce large logs to cant before milling boards for a few reasons. 1st is ultra wide boards are not stable enough for me. I need furniture quality wood, and a 30 inch wide board will cup way too much and will have to be re ripped anyway. The next reason is safety. If I were to run a 36 inch bar and mill a 16 inch log, over 1/2 of the bar is out of the log. In my opinion, thats asking for trouble. The excess bar and chain can snag twigs ect, and if I were to ever lose footing, more exposed chain to remove body parts. Next its harder on the saw. Any saw will cut more efficiently with a shorter bar. The less resistance you have, the faster your milling will go. The final reason is, why have to sharpen all that unneeded chain?


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## irishcountry (Oct 12, 2007)

*logosol*

Just throwing in a quick comment. I still have not gotten set up and have not milled as of yet. I ultimately decided to wait and buy a 395xp instead of the old available saw ( Remmington 660 with manual thumb oiler) but I went ahead and bought a GB bar and ripping chain. I am still researching mills also so I ordered a demo pack from Logosol , I can't believe the speed on some of the cuts on the video, of course it varies on the size of log they are working with and on the large logs they cutaway and speed forward but if chainsaw milling is even half as fast it will definately be for me. They had some interviews with guys that have cut lumber and built houses and timberframe barns it was awesome. Keep the posts coming!! Thanks for all the info and thanks to Aggie for the lead on Stens.


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## BobL (Oct 12, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> I have thought it over and the best way for me to do things is by a picture guided assembly and make up as you go thing, its much quicker than writing out a whole set of drawings, here goes.
> 
> For the rail you will need two 7 foot lengths of 2 X 4 inch box section with an
> 1/8" wall thickness, no longer than 7 feet per length or rail or things tend to flex a little when the going gets tough, when you have the rail cut, make sure that you have the two ends that are cut, so they go back together the same way afterwards and mark them with a center punch, so they go back exactly where they were cut apart, you can use the welded seam on the side of the box for refference.
> ...



Railo, is all of the above just to make the rail?
If so I can't see why going to the trouble of cutting a rail in half and then joining it again makes any difference.
Maybe I'm missing something but if a 3mm thick rail flexes why not just get a heavier gauge?


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

The two 7 feet pieces make up the rail, if you have a big enough pickup truck or something like one of course use a one piece rail and in heavier box section, but that is not what I needed, I wanted something much lighter and easier to transport about, here in the UK we prefer something that's neat and compact for our smaller vehicles.

To see what it s I'm sharing have a look at this link below

http://www.chainsawmills.co.uk/railomatic.htm

Once this baby is made there is no more wrestling with the mill or saw, you can sit at one end on a chair and winch the saw towards you, out of all the noise and dust, this is why I made her, and because I'm getting older and don't want a bad back any more.

More coming soon.


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

irishcountry said:


> Just throwing in a quick comment. I still have not gotten set up and have not milled as of yet. I ultimately decided to wait and buy a 395xp instead of the old available saw ( Remmington 660 with manual thumb oiler) but I went ahead and bought a GB bar and ripping chain. I am still researching mills also so I ordered a demo pack from Logosol , I can't believe the speed on some of the cuts on the video, of course it varies on the size of log they are working with and on the large logs they cutaway and speed forward but if chainsaw milling is even half as fast it will definately be for me. They had some interviews with guys that have cut lumber and built houses and timberframe barns it was awesome. Keep the posts coming!! Thanks for all the info and thanks to Aggie for the lead on Stens.




A friend of mine has an M7 which is fine if your working on a static position with lifting gear, iff your out in the woods the M7 is only good for what you can manually lift onto it with or without any ramps, so you are limited on the larger stuff that normally comes your way for nothing and that means usually big stuff.
The M7 outfit does cut really quickly, BUT you would have real trouble once you go over 24 inches with pico chain, it simply would not take the pressures that a 95 or 125 cc saw can deliver, don't get me wrong here I think the M7 is a fine piece of equipment, but she is limited on the bigger stuff.

This is why I opted for the system I use now, Stihl MS880, 9 toothed drive sprocket on Cannon 36-50 inch superbars running on 325 Oregon ripping chain or home converted cutters if you cannot buy it where you are.

Its fine having a massive mill to cut the widest boards imaginable, what happens if your out in the sticks and you need to move those megga planks
your going to have a hard time moving them.

Most Uk pro woodworkers/cabinet makers prefer boards in and around the 15 inch wide mark, because wider boards tend to cup more, which means that there is going to be a lot more ripping down and waste later.

Have fun

Raily.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Oct 12, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> The next two parts are the only pieces which I have made for me, which we will deal with next posting.



Awesome posts! Keep them coming! I've been pondering whether or not I should build something like this for a while. It sure would make solo milling easier. 


What's the longest bar you have used with this setup?


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Awesome posts! Keep them coming! I've been pondering whether or not I should build something like this for a while. It sure would make solo milling easier.
> 
> 
> What's the longest bar you have used with this setup?



The system works best using a 36 inch bar, with at least 90cc behind things this give you a plank of around 34 inches wide.

When I use the bigger bars they are usually fittedto the roller type mills I have made, see here a picture of a 60 inch unit.

http://www.chainsawmills.co.uk/about.htm


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 12, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> A friend of mine has an M7 which is fine if your working on a static position with lifting gear, iff your out in the woods the M7 is only good for what you can manually lift onto it with or without any ramps, so you are limited on the larger stuff that normally comes your way for nothing and that means usually big stuff.
> The M7 outfit does cut really quickly, BUT you would have real trouble once you go over 24 inches with pico chain, it simply would not take the pressures that a 95 or 125 cc saw can deliver, don't get me wrong here I think the M7 is a fine piece of equipment, but she is limited on the bigger stuff.
> 
> This is why I opted for the system I use now, Stihl MS880, 9 toothed drive sprocket on Cannon 36-50 inch superbars running on 325 Oregon ripping chain or home converted cutters if you cannot buy it where you are.
> ...



I just don't know how to take a post like this. Does anybody here really belive those "mega planks" get lighter depending on which mill cut them? Is there anybody here that really thinks the "picco" chain is the only chain that works on Logosol stuff? Do you really think you can't change the sprocket, bar or chain "if" it's going on a M7? To me, all but the last sentence can be called "misinformation".

Rodney


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## woodshop (Oct 12, 2007)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> ... To me, all but the last sentence can be called "misinformation".
> Rodney



... well I'd like to respectfully disagree. From reading his posts over the past few years, I'd say railomatic has more experience and has looked into more aspects of chainsaw milling than most of us. For me, that translates into taking his comments pretty seriously, as I think he knows what he is talking about. Not patronizing rail... and not knocking anybody else... EVERY type of mill, including the M7, has its pros and cons depending on the application. Just my opinion.  

This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while... tons of good insight and info... keep it going.


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

whoowah guys, lets try to be as civil as possible here, I'm simply trying to share my experiences, hey I don't know it all you know, but what I write is honest and what I have done over the last two decades.

As Woodshop says every mill has its pro's and con's, ideas are what makes things work better, and constructive critisism is always welcome here, I wish I had time to come to the states and share my knowledge with you all, until then I will have to make do with the forum.

If any of the forum members manage to build a Railomatic mill themselves it will save them about 2/3 rds the cost of an M7 and similar mills, the railomatic can also be fitted with a smaller bar and chain and cut just as fast as an M7, but the M7 will not handle the size of trees that the railomatic can and is not as portable, I have demo-ed this on many ocassions in the past when milling trees on steep slopes where a tree has fallen.

If I have given any miss-information in my postings then I appologise whole heartedly.

Raily.


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## irishcountry (Oct 12, 2007)

*Rail*

I think if anything it should be MR. information. I have read and paid alot of attention to his posts in the past he's built some pretty impressive equipment and posted lots of informative pics in the past and present. Keep it up!!


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 12, 2007)

woodshop said:


> ... well I'd like to respectfully disagree.



I'll take this to mean you do belive those planks are lighter if they are cut with a Ripsaw. And you can't change that bar on a chainsaw head if it's going to be used on a Logosol. Right?

Rodney


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## Railomatic (Oct 12, 2007)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> I'll take this to mean you do belive those planks are lighter if they are cut with a Ripsaw. And you can't change that bar on a chainsaw head if it's going to be used on a Logosol. Right?
> 
> Rodney




Sorry to but in again guys, but where in my posting which has upset Mr Sinclair so, that using another makers CSM is going to make the planks lighter, read it again carefully, it mearly states a fact the bigger the planks are the harder it is going to be to move them, especially if your alone, I didn't mean that bigger is better, I was mearly pointing out the portability aspect of a portable mill which eleviates undue stress upon the operator.

The railomatic is actually heavier than the M7, but is designed to come apart in seconds and be put up in around ten minutes by one person, it is a truly portable unit which will work on just about any terrain, wheather its on a steep slope, in a dry or wet river bottom, its a true portable, which will handle logs without lifting the lumber from 6 inches to 34 inches wide, without breaking your back doing it, maybe not to everyones liking but it work in a number of situations where other won't.

Sorry to be a pain here, and that's my last comment on this matter, more building info comming soon.

Raily.


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## BobL (Oct 12, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> The two 7 feet pieces make up the rail, if you have a big enough pickup truck or something like one of course use a one piece rail and in heavier box section, but that is not what I needed, I wanted something much lighter and easier to transport about, here in the UK we prefer something that's neat and compact for our smaller vehicles.
> 
> To see what it s I'm sharing have a look at this link below
> 
> ...



Ah ha - I get it now! Thanks 
I have some pieces of 100 x 50 are 3 m long so 2 of those would be good but I can fully understand the need to get these exactly lined up.

Thanks Heaps for sharing.


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## aquan8tor (Oct 12, 2007)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> I'll take this to mean you do belive those planks are lighter if they are cut with a Ripsaw. And you can't change that bar on a chainsaw head if it's going to be used on a Logosol. Right?
> 
> Rodney







Well, a 14.5" wide board--max on a ripsaw, is going to be a HELL of a lot lighter than a 34" wide board.


BTW, logosol does sell bigger bars, with different, wider kerfed stihl ripping chain. 


IMHO, anything over about 24-28" is going to start sagging if its not supported on the other end. I seem to remember a pic of another member's big 72" bar bowing under its own weight in the middle? I can't remember how, but there's something that keeps it straight for the starting cut. Imagine if it weren't supported at all on the other side.....




The M7 is a great mill. I looked at one before buying the ripsaw. Its just different, and can't do the same things, but can do things the railomatic can't do; The rail mill wouldn't work well if you had a log deck ready to go with lots of smaller logs. When I looked at the m7, I thought it was one of the most well-engineered things I'd seen the way they thought out different aspects of milling. I just thought I couldn't handle bigger logs the way I wanted to. 

Besides; How many other manufacturers are willing to give you a how-to step by step on how to exactly copy their own product?? Let the miller decide their own needs and criteria.


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## woodshop (Oct 12, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> The next two parts are the only pieces which I have made for me, which we will deal with next posting.








Rail... have you ever looked into making these out of wood? There are some very dense tough tropical hardwoods that would probably work as well if not better than plastic. Of course, cost may be more. Just thinking out loud, as that would be something that could be made in a woodshop with a few well designed jigs on a metal lathe. (I use my metal mill/drill and metal lathe mostly for wood, not metal... lots of advantages).


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## Railomatic (Oct 13, 2007)

Hi Woody

Yes I have tried to use wood for those side plates before, the only thing that is preventing them from working is the axles that fit through the wheels tend to press into the boards when the side pressure of the saw and trolley weight hangs down with a sideways pressure, the trolley needs to be clamped solid to run smoothly.

The cut away in the middle of those plates reduces their weight by 50 % a wooden set actually weighs about the same as a metal set, the side plates are made from high grade steel at 5.00 thick X 300 X 225, the axle centers are 10.00mm and 35.00mm in from both edges.
 
The wheels are 70.00mm in dia, with a 45.00mm dia step cut into the middle, with a 50.00mm gap,so they fit nicely over the 100 X 50mm box section, the axle has s 20.00mm middle, the axle is 70.50mm wide with a 10.00mm hole through the middle of it.


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## poleframer (Oct 13, 2007)

woodshop said:


> Just thinking out loud, as that would be something that could be made in a woodshop with a few well designed jigs on a metal lathe. (I use my metal mill/drill and metal lathe mostly for wood, not metal... lots of advantages).[/QUOTE]
> 
> GREAT Thread! I'll talk a little sawmill stuff next, but would like to ask woodshop about lathes here. I was given an old Sebastian lathe (14"x60"), And I'd like to use it for both wood and metal work.
> When I get to mounting a motor on it, what motor HP, and lathe rpm's should I aim for?
> Hav'nt done any turning, but with this in the shop, I'm itching to try.


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## Al Smith (Oct 13, 2007)

On that lathe,most likely a 3 HP motor.If you are going to machine metal,most likely 600 rpm would be fast enough. Depending on the size piece ,often slower than 600..Wood would be much faster.

To get an idea on speeds for metal,once again google is your friend,as there is a lot of on-line help on the subject.

Now,the subject.As I've stated in the past,milling is not my favorite use of a chainsaw,no offense to those who enjoy it.Having said that,I can usually cut about a foot or faster a minute on 18 "oak with either a 2100 Homelite or a 125 Mac using standard round ground chisel chain.It may not be as smooth as a ripping chain but still a lot smoother than a circle mill.


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## Railomatic (Oct 13, 2007)

Here are another couple of shots of the trolley made up, the two flat bars running along the top and bottom is where the cradle that holds the saw in place sits.


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## poleframer (Oct 13, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> There are of course other good reasons to use a winch, like physically moving away from the powerhead. Something to fiddle with in the future.
> 
> Cheers



Thats what I like best about my setup. I set the speed with a reostat, and stand (sit) back, staying just close enough to deal with it if the saw bogs. It's also where the govenor in the 090 is nice. 
It would probably mill faster by pushing tho, as I set the speed for knots in the wood, otherwise the saw hardly grunts when cutting.
I've been using an 30" ES bar with 404/063 chain,7-pin sprocket. I mostly mill cedar, some fir up to 24". I guess the chain streach issue worries me some, but I'd like to try another combination to speed up the cuts, and reduce kerf.
What bar/chain/sprocket combination would you all suggest, and from what source? 
Here's a pic of the winch setup, pardon the hillbilly appearance- its a "prototype". I wish now that I had made the carridge 30"-36" instead of 24", I have to trim logs to fit fairly often, might change that before I get a new bar setup.


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## Railomatic (Oct 13, 2007)

BobL said:


> Ah ha - I get it now! Thanks
> I have some pieces of 100 x 50 are 3 m long so 2 of those would be good but I can fully understand the need to get these exactly lined up.
> 
> Thanks Heaps for sharing.



Sorry I missed this posting, to get the two ends accurate to each other I have them cut whilst in a sigle length of tube and where the cut is made is where I bolt them back together afterwards.

To get two rails that have already been cut, you must find a god outfit that ha a true saw to get the ends square, most of the modern metal bandsaws are pretty accurate nowadays, get hem to check the ends with an engineers square, if the ends are not exact, you can always file them yourself until you get them true, it takes a litle while but its worth it.


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## woodshop (Oct 13, 2007)

poleframer said:


> GREAT Thread! I'll talk a little sawmill stuff next, but would like to ask woodshop about lathes here. I was given an old Sebastian lathe (14"x60"), And I'd like to use it for both wood and metal work.
> When I get to mounting a motor on it, what motor HP, and lathe rpm's should I aim for?
> Hav'nt done any turning, but with this in the shop, I'm itching to try.



Not wanting to derail this great thread, but will answer your question by yielding to Al Smith and his response, who I know for a fact knows a whole lot more about this stuff than I. Actually, I use my metal lathe on wood mostly for its ability to be indexed. I mount a 3HP router to it that I slowly crank down the bed so I can precisely "mill" square blanks into exact dia dowel among other things. Large dia cherry, walnut and oak hardwood dowel rod is expensive, so I make my own. So I don't use the metal lathe as you would a traditional wood lathe. If I want to turn spindles or bowls, I do have a wood lathe for that. 

OK back to milling speeds... I'm enjoying hearing what others can do with their particular saw/chain setups.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 17, 2007)

*Timed my speed today*

I got energetic after work this arvo , slabbed up a quarter of a Monterey pine log(radiata pine) average width of the slab I ripped was , 14 1/2" - 15" x 9'2" , time was 2 3/4 minute's , 3.27 Ft a minute . Chain used was Bailey's woodsmanPro ripping chain 3/8 x .063 sharpened at 15deg's x 45deg's , Stihl Ms660 91.5cc , 20" bar . Im gunna have to try the 3/8 x .050 Lo pro chain that you guy's use soon , I would also like to try the 325 chain at some stage . Cheers MM


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## wdchuck (Oct 17, 2007)

That pic looks familiar MM...


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## BobL (Oct 17, 2007)

wdchuck said:


> That pic looks familiar MM...



Posted in May here as "POL_0010.JPG"??


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## Al Smith (Oct 17, 2007)

poleframer said:


> Here's a pic of the winch setup, pardon the hillbilly appearance- its a "prototype". I wish now that I had made the carridge 30"-36" instead of 24", I have to trim logs to fit fairly often, might change that before I get a new bar setup.


 Pshaw,that's not 
"hill billy" ,that's creativity at it's finest.Appearance account for very little,end results are what's important.

Actually I'm somewhat of a junkyard dawg/dumpster diver myself.Not to derail but I used a Milwaukee right angle drill to power a seam roller I built to roll standing seam roofing.


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## aquan8tor (Oct 17, 2007)

poleframer said:


> Thats what I like best about my setup. I set the speed with a reostat, and stand (sit) back, staying just close enough to deal with it if the saw bogs. It's also where the govenor in the 090 is nice.
> It would probably mill faster by pushing tho, as I set the speed for knots in the wood, otherwise the saw hardly grunts when cutting.
> I've been using an 30" ES bar with 404/063 chain,7-pin sprocket. I mostly mill cedar, some fir up to 24". I guess the chain streach issue worries me some, but I'd like to try another combination to speed up the cuts, and reduce kerf.
> What bar/chain/sprocket combination would you all suggest, and from what source?
> Here's a pic of the winch setup, pardon the hillbilly appearance- its a "prototype". I wish now that I had made the carridge 30"-36" instead of 24", I have to trim logs to fit fairly often, might change that before I get a new bar setup.



I think I've seen your pic before, but I didn't understand the mechanics. The drill is for the winch! Nice. Ingenious use of old bicycle parts!!!! Not hillbilly at all. Seems more like MacGyver to me!


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## woodshop (Oct 17, 2007)

csm speed... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today, and timed it. 395XP/36 inch bar with standard 3/8 round ground chisle skip tooth chain just sharpened in 20 inch wide osage orange... I was moving about an inch in 7 seconds, or almost minute and half per foot. That osage is some seriously hard dense stuff though, about as tough as milling gets. 

I scored over 1000 bd ft of osage in 6 chunks of the same tree from a tree service bone yard... this stuff is hard and heavy but beautiful golden yellow and machines well in the woodshop. Milling pics when I start to slice it into lumber. Right now I'm just getting it into manageable cants.


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## BobL (Oct 17, 2007)

woodshop said:


> csm speed... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today, and timed it. 395XP/36 inch bar with standard 3/8 round ground chisle skip tooth chain just sharpened in 20 inch wide osage orange... I was moving about an inch in 7 seconds, or almost minute and half per foot. That osage is some seriously hard dense stuff though, about as tough as milling gets.



That's a pretty similar speed to what I get in similar width Tuart which has a Janka green hardness of 9.3 kN compared to osage of 9.1 kN. I was getting around 3 mm a second of milling which is ~13/16" in 7 seconds. That was also with a clean chain. Eventually enough resin comes out of the wood and smothers the chain with a black crust that really slows you down by as much as a factor of 2! I haven't tried milling this timber with the water cleaning system yet but I'm hoping this will help.


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## BlueRider (Oct 18, 2007)

*20" osage?*



woodshop said:


> ... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today[/QUOTE
> 
> nice drive by gloat. I've heard that osage can get that big but have never seen anything even close. now your going to really rub it is an tell us that you were geting 8' long clear straight grained boards.
> 
> I milled up a red mullberry a couple of months ago. It reminded me a lot of osage in color and hardness. those were some heave slabs.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 18, 2007)

*Yep that's how old the wood is*



wdchuck said:


> That pic looks familiar MM...



Yep that's how old the wood is Wdchuck , the bit's I cut up had bit's of rot , on the what would have been , the outter side of the the log quarter's . I have got too many log's to cut up , I will have to start storeing them in one of me shed's . Cheers MM


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## Matildasmate (Oct 18, 2007)

*Yep sound's about right Bob*



BobL said:


> Posted in May here as "POL_0010.JPG"??



Sound's about right Bob and the photo was about 12 month's old at the time , roughly . Cheers MM


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## Matildasmate (Oct 18, 2007)

*Look's like it work's mate , that's all that count's*



poleframer said:


> Thats what I like best about my setup. I set the speed with a reostat, and stand (sit) back, staying just close enough to deal with it if the saw bogs. It's also where the govenor in the 090 is nice.
> It would probably mill faster by pushing tho, as I set the speed for knots in the wood, otherwise the saw hardly grunts when cutting.
> I've been using an 30" ES bar with 404/063 chain,7-pin sprocket. I mostly mill cedar, some fir up to 24". I guess the chain stretch issue worries me some, but I'd like to try another combination to speed up the cuts, and reduce kerf.
> What bar/chain/sprocket combination would you all suggest, and from what source?
> Here's a pic of the winch setup, pardon the hillbilly appearance- its a "prototype". I wish now that I had made the carriage 30"-36" instead of 24", I have to trim logs to fit fairly often, might change that before I get a new bar setup.



Look's like it work's mate , that's all that count's . Mine look's a bit rough , but you get that , I originally built another rail for mine , which is still on it , underneath the other one , another short cut I took . Cheer's MM


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## Matildasmate (Oct 18, 2007)

*Got any info Bob*



BobL said:


> That's a pretty similar speed to what I get in similar width Tuart which has a Janka green hardness of 9.3 kN compared to osage of 9.1 kN. I was getting around 3 mm a second of milling which is ~13/16" in 7 seconds. That was also with a clean chain. Eventually enough resin comes out of the wood and smothers the chain with a black crust that really slows you down by as much as a factor of 2! I haven't tried milling this timber with the water cleaning system yet but I'm hoping this will help.



Hi Bob ........ Have you got any link's or info on janka green hardness for Aussie timber's , that I can check out . Thank's Cheers MM


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## BobL (Oct 18, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Hi Bob ........ Have you got any link's or info on janka green hardness for Aussie timber's , that I can check out . Thank's Cheers MM




This (http://www.fpc.wa.gov.au/content/species/arid/wandoo.asp) has a list of Western Australian and other Aussie Timber properties including Janka Green Hardness. This is a very useful site - lots of good info.

http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm has some data for many trees across the world - mainly for dry hardness but it mentions the Janka green hardness for Osage specifically. 


This thread has some interesting info: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/archive/index.php/t-10389.html (recognise the forum?)


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## woodshop (Oct 18, 2007)

csm speed... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today, and timed it. 395XP/36 inch bar with standard 3/8 round ground chisle skip tooth chain just sharpened in 20 inch wide osage orange... I was moving about an inch in 7 seconds, or almost minute and half per foot. That osage is some seriously hard dense stuff though, about as tough as milling gets. 

I scored over 1000 bd ft of osage in 6 chunks of the same tree from a tree service bone yard... this stuff is hard and heavy but beautiful golden yellow and machines well in the woodshop. Milling pics when I start to slice it into lumber. Right now I'm just getting it into manageable cants.


----------



## BobL (Oct 18, 2007)

woodshop said:


> csm speed... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today, and timed it. 395XP/36 inch bar with standard 3/8 round ground chisle skip tooth chain just sharpened in 20 inch wide osage orange... I was moving about an inch in 7 seconds, or almost minute and half per foot. That osage is some seriously hard dense stuff though, about as tough as milling gets.
> 
> I scored over 1000 bd ft of osage in 6 chunks of the same tree from a tree service bone yard... this stuff is hard and heavy but beautiful golden yellow and machines well in the woodshop. Milling pics when I start to slice it into lumber. Right now I'm just getting it into manageable cants.



This post looks familiar?


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## Matildasmate (Oct 19, 2007)

*Bob you have a sharp memory mate*



BobL said:


> This post looks familiar?



Hi Bob ......... you should have been a detective mate :hmm3grin2orange: , you have a sharp memory , Thank's for the info and link's , I shall have a look soon should be interesting . Cheers mm


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## BobL (Oct 19, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Hi Bob ......... you should have been a detective mate :hmm3grin2orange: , you have a sharp memory , Thank's for the info and link's , I shall have a look soon should be interesting . Cheers mm




MM: - I am a detective  my job is to smell out crooked students and crooked science. I have a high sensitivity crap meter - mind you I can dish it out as well.

memory - it's shot and overstuffed - I just use google

Cheers


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## Matildasmate (Oct 19, 2007)

*:hmm3grin2orange:*



BobL said:


> MM: - I am a detective  my job is to smell out crooked students and crooked science. I have a high sensitivity crap meter - mind you I can dish it out as well.
> 
> memory - it's shot and overstuffed - I just use google
> 
> Cheers



:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## woodshop (Oct 19, 2007)

BobL said:


> This post looks familiar?



well heck  ... same post but posted about a day apart? How did that happen???

Anyway, to answer Blue Rider, this is not the usual osage you find around these parts. That's why I jumped on it as soon as I saw the opportunity. Usually osage around here grows pretty crooked and scrubby, often part of a hedgerow along the road. Once in a while you get a tall relatively strait tree as this one. I am not sure what exactly I am going to do with 1000 ft of osage orange... I never had any long strait boards of it before. Just couldn't pass it up.

BobL mentioned milling tuart which is also hard and dense, and mentioned gumming up the chain. I find that oak, butternut, cherry and many other hardwoods do tend to gunk up my chain when milling. The osage however, did not as much. Milling it produced more of a fine powder than other hardwoods. In fact, that fine yellow powder seemed to almost act as a lubricant. Example: ...the pins that hold my Ripsaw guide bar to the ends of the log always get gunked up and have to be cleaned with WD-40 or turpentine when milling most hardwoods or they stop sliding in and out of the pin holes which are machined to very close tolerances. Any residue or gunk on the pins and they won't slide in and out of their holes. With the osage, they remained clean and smooth, and seemed to glide in and out of the pin holes much easier as if I lubricated them with graphite or something. The flip side to milling that much osage was that the fine yellow dust gets EVERYWHERE and seems to penetrate into more nooks and crannies than other milling dust. Could it be that because it is so hard it produces finer milling dust? Or maybe the chemical makeup of the osage orange wood itself is a factor?

I do know that in WW I, they used to grind up osage orange wood to a fine powder and use it to dye military uniforms that tan khaki color.


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## Oden (Oct 29, 2007)

*More info and photos of railomatic csm*

Railomatic following this thread with great interest, great plans and details, are you going to keep them coming?

I am going to make a CSM based on yours over the next 8 weeks , I like the idea of standing up, away from the dust.


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## poleframer (Oct 29, 2007)

Well, I called Norm at Stens, no luck for a 36" bar. He does have 9 pin sprockets, and chain tho. I'm planning on reworking my mill for a 30" cut, and think I'll go for a narrower kerf. Spose I can get another ES bar, wonder if there .325 tips for the stihl 3002 bars? Any other bar suggestions? 
What about guage, .050, .063? Sure is a help to get as much info as is available here before shopping.
Thanks Jared, Raily and all!


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## Matildasmate (Oct 29, 2007)

*3/8 x .050 low pro chain*



poleframer said:


> Well, I called Norm at Stens, no luck for a 36" bar. He does have 9 pin sprockets, and chain tho. I'm planning on reworking my mill for a 30" cut, and think I'll go for a narrower kerf. Spose I can get another ES bar, wonder if there .325 tips for the stihl 3003 bars? Any other bar suggestions?
> What about Gage, .050, .063? Sure is a help to get as much info as is available here before shopping.
> Thanks Jared, Raily and all!



3/8 x .05 low pro , that is what I will be changing to , just my personal preference , I already have it on my small saw and should be able to get what I want , very easily for my big saw . Cheer's MM


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## poleframer (Oct 29, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> 3/8 x .05 low pro , that is what I will be changing to , just my personal preference , I already have it on my small saw and should be able to get what I want , very easily for my big saw . Cheer's MM



One problem with the bigger stihls- that tall bar is harder to make choices with. Just talked with my dealer, .325 nose on a 36" ES bar is'nt happening. Cannon is a possibility, but sounds like more than I'm ready to spend now (he quoted me $300+ for cannon bar/nose/sprocket). He also thought that if I did run a .325 on that size bar, the bar thickness would be a problem after so much filing.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 29, 2007)

*How about 3/8 x .050 low pro*



poleframer said:


> One problem with the bigger stihls- that tall bar is harder to make choices with. Just talked with my dealer, .325 nose on a 36" ES bar is'nt happening. Cannon is a possibility, but sounds like more than I'm ready to spend now (he quoted me $300+ for cannon bar/nose/sprocket). He also thought that if I did run a .325 on that size bar, the bar thickness would be a problem after so much filing.



How about 3/8 x .050 low pro at Bailey's (a site sponsor)36" bar $129us ....http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=BAWP+36+SS50+01&catID=64 ..... Cheer's MM


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## poleframer (Oct 29, 2007)

"Fits the following chainsaws:
STIHL 024, 026, .., MS 440, MS 440 MAGNUM, MS 460 MAGNUM, MS 660, MS 660M 

I need the bigger mount bar (for 084,088,090 etc). They have a bar for 063 ga. 3/8, but I'd prolly go ES at that. Wonder how low pro would work.

Hey Aggie! any idears?


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## aquan8tor (Oct 30, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> How about 3/8 x .050 low pro at Bailey's (a site sponsor)36" bar $129us ....http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=BAWP+36+SS50+01&catID=64 ..... Cheer's MM





I've used the .050 lopro bailey's chain on a 32" oregon powermatch. Boy, does it stretch. After about the third time it broke, I decided it was too weak to use on long bars. I kept the loop & shortened it to use on a 20" bar. I've only broken that once! I may have started it a little tight, but not where I couldn't pull up and get a normal amount of stretch. It just seems to pull the drive links right apart with no warning. The last one was on yellow pine, which certainly isn't a lot of work for any chain.

I have never tried the water-cooling method that you guys are discussing; this might change the stretch aspect, but I sure as heck wouldn't use it without chaps on, and without being absolutely certain that it couldn't hit me or others around the mill. every time it happened, it came to an instant dead stop, but the broken end whipped around; I'm relatively certain it always broke on the top (noncutting) side of the bar & whipped out away from me, but I'm just not 100% positive.


Edit: FWIW, I thought I should add that I am using canola oil instead of petro based oil, but I haven't noticed any extra wear at all on my bars or anything. It costs me less than bar oil, is completely environmentally safe, I can use the sawdust right in the garden, smells a LOT less than petro oil, is viscous at a lower temperature than petro, etc. It also doesn't seem to be any less effective at staying on the bar, surprisingly. I put an aux. oiler on it for longer bars, but it didn't oil enough with regular oil either. I suppose you could put something like lucasoil stabilizer in it as a tackifier, but it works fine for my needs. May be different with those aussie hardwoods. I DO use petro oil in the other saws, as I don't use them enough to not be afraid about biodegradation gumming up the oil pump.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 30, 2007)

poleframer said:


> "Fits the following chainsaws:
> STIHL 024, 026, .., MS 440, MS 440 MAGNUM, MS 460 MAGNUM, MS 660, MS 660M
> 
> I need the bigger mount bar (for 084,088,090 etc). They have a bar for 063 ga. 3/8, but I'd prolly go ES at that. Wonder how low pro would work.
> ...



Sorry mate I thought the mount's would be the same as the 660 , how wrong was I   . Cheer's MM


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## BobL (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks for an interesting post H2ON8OR!



aquan8tor said:


> I've used the .050 lopro bailey's chain on a 32" oregon powermatch. Boy, does it stretch. After about the third time it broke, I decided it was too weak to use on long bars. I kept the loop & shortened it to use on a 20" bar. I've only broken that once! I may have started it a little tight, but not where I couldn't pull up and get a normal amount of stretch. It just seems to pull the drive links right apart with no warning.



This degree of stretch appears to be a case of too many cutters versus too much torque at the sprocket. Did you try it with a skip chain setup?

It could be diagnostic if you could post a picture of the actual broken chain. 

I realize the following is a simplified diagnosis but I measured the weakest point on an 0.050" low profile chain (its on the drive link) compared to a normal profile 0.05" chain, and the low profile has ~20% less metal at that cross section. Interestingly (or perhaps as to be expected) the width of the cutters on LP is smaller than NP by ~20%, so theoretically these should cancel but the counter force by the cutters against the drive force at the sprocket is also affected by the number of cutters slicing through wood - if there are too many the chain will not cope. That's why a skip chain setup might work OK up to a point.

Using a 0.058" chain automatically increases the amount of metal by at least 8/50ths or 16% more again and an 0.063" has at least 10% more again (it's actually more that than - these are minima). 



aquan8tor said:


> I have never tried the water-cooling method that you guys are discussing; this might change the stretch aspect, but I sure as heck wouldn't use it without chaps on, and without being absolutely certain that it couldn't hit me or others around the mill. every time it happened, it came to an instant dead stop, but the broken end whipped around; I'm relatively certain it always broke on the top (noncutting) side of the bar & whipped out away from me, but I'm just not 100% positive.



Could you just make sure you have a video running next time you use it  

I don't think water cooling will do much. My guess would be the stretch happens because there is just not enough metal holding the links together.



aquan8tor said:


> Edit: FWIW, I thought I should add that I am using canola oil instead of petro based oil, but I haven't noticed any extra wear at all on my bars or anything. It costs me less than bar oil, is completely environmentally safe, I can use the sawdust right in the garden, smells a LOT less than petro oil, is viscous at a lower temperature than petro, etc. It also doesn't seem to be any less effective at staying on the bar, surprisingly. I put an aux. oiler on it for longer bars, but it didn't oil enough with regular oil either. I suppose you could put something like lucasoil stabilizer in it as a tackifier, but it works fine for my needs. May be different with those aussie hardwoods. I DO use petro oil in the other saws, as I don't use them enough to not be afraid about biodegradation gumming up the oil pump.



I've used canola in an Aux oiler on Aussie hardwoords and it is OK but I have always used brand oil on the CS itself for the same reason you give. I don't mind having to pull the aux oiler line apart but the thought of doing that to an oil pump doesn't thrill me.

Cheers


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## Matildasmate (Oct 30, 2007)

*Railomatic use's .325 on 50" bar*

Railomatic use's .325 on 50" bar with an 880 ,I see Aggie also use's .325 on some bar's , not sure what length though . I have to say that the water cooling work's exstremly well , I also beleive it make's a difference to chain stretch , but not in the normal way , as in , not the same as when the chain get's blunt and you just push on , the stretch I am talking about is actually just the expansion of the chain from heat , which change's the length , once it call's down the chain normaly return's to normal length , but with water cooling chain stay's same length , because it is alway's cool . I have been using the water cooling method over the last couple of week's cutting up some old pine log's , I am very very pleased with the result's . Cheer's MM


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## BobL (Oct 30, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Railomatic use's .325 on 50" bar with an 880 ,I see Aggie also use's .325 on some bar's , not sure what length though . I have to say that the water cooling work's exstremly well , I also beleive it make's a difference to chain stretch , but not in the normal way , as in , not the same as when the chain get's blunt and you just push on , the stretch I am talking about is actually just the expansion of the chain from heat , which change's the length , once it call's down the chain normaly return's to normal length , but with water cooling chain stay's same length , because it is alway's cool . I have been using the water cooling method over the last couple of week's cutting up some old pine log's , I am very very pleased with the result's . Cheer's MM



Humm , , , Intuitively I find that hard to believe MM, but I could be persuaded otherwise. How hot do you think the chain gets without water cooling under normal operation? 200oC - 300oC or more ? I seriously doubt it would get too much above 250oC (I will measure it next time I'm milling) otherwise it would start to char the wood! 

Using a coefficient of linear expansion for steel of 0.000011 /oC a chain, on a 42" (1066 mm) bar the chain will expand by 4.6 mm for a temp rise of 200oC ! Crikey - that's a lot!

If the chain were to expand in length by ~5 mm overall on a 1066mm this equates to the chain lifting of the bar by - nah that's gonna get messy and involve a few hyperbolic trigonometrics - thats for my day job. Well I'd guess it's in the ball park relative to what I have seen! And MM is right - you don't see this sort of stretch with water cooling.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 30, 2007)

BobL said:


> Humm , , , Intuitively I find that hard to believe MM, but I could be persuaded otherwise. How hot do you think the chain gets without water cooling under normal operation? 200oC - 300oC or more ? I seriously doubt it would get too much above 250oC (I will measure it next time I'm milling) otherwise it would start to char the wood!
> 
> Using a coefficient of linear expansion for steel of 0.000011 /oC a chain, on a 42" (1066 mm) bar the chain will expand by 4.6 mm for a temp rise of 200oC ! Crikey - that's a lot!
> 
> If the chain were to expand in length by ~5 mm overall on a 1066mm this equates to the chain lifting of the bar by - nah that's gonna get messy and involve a few hyperbolic trigonometrics - thats for my day job. Well I'd guess it's in the ball park relative to what I have seen! And MM is right - you don't see this sort of stretch with water cooling.



So what was your conclusion Bob , I think this got a bit messy mate . :newbie: Cheer's MM .......I had another read Bob and the penny drop's . Ah ha I see , it must be getting late


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## woodshop (Oct 30, 2007)

BobL said:


> If the chain were to expand in length by ~5 mm overall on a 1066mm this equates to the chain lifting of the bar by - nah that's gonna get messy and involve a few hyperbolic trigonometrics...


Well math is certainly not my strong suite... but I know just from experience that it doesn't take much at all, just moving that bar a few Aussie mm's and that chain sags as if stretched big time. Point being the ratio of chain stretch or bar adjusting movement (same effect) is not linear. The actual math my prove me wrong on that... but... I know that just a little stretch turns in to a lot of chain sag. A chain flopping around a bar beats up both the bar and chain, and probably contributes to it eventually breaking sooner than it otherwise would.


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## BobL (Oct 30, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> So what was your conclusion Bob , I think this got a bit messy mate . :newbie: Cheer's MM .......I had another read Bob and the penny drop's . Ah ha I see , it must be getting late



Preliminary conclusion is you are probably right. 

What I was trying to determine was if I could calculate the amount a correctly tightened chain would expand by and hang down from the bar by after it has heated up. The calculation is complicated because the bar gets hot and expands as well. The chain will always be hotter than the bar but the heating is not even - for example the cutting edge will be hotter than the top edge. I've also seen guys flogging saws so badly that parts of the edges of the bar turn blue so who knows what's happening to the chain.


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