# Do you work with a bunch of drunks?



## pdqdl (Jan 31, 2010)

I wasn't sure which area to post this, so I stuck it here.

I have problems with alcoholics & drug heads working for me. I have at least solved the drunk problem with this jewel:

http://www.alcotester.com/al-7000.htm

This little toy fits in your pocket, costs less than $200.00, and quickly ferrets out the drunks before they get in your truck. It is damned accurate too.

There are a number of similar units on the market, but this is the only one that I found that is economical to operate and requires no calibration procedure. When it goes out of calibration after several hundred tests, it tells you to put in another $30 module. No shipping and waiting for your unit to be returned is involved, you can have a spare module ready for the next test in five minutes.

I'm still waiting for a similar testing machine for pot, crack, crank, and some of the other popular drugs.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 31, 2010)

I am glad I dont have your problems.
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Jan 31, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am glad I dont have your problems.
> Jeff



Me either.


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## custom8726 (Jan 31, 2010)

Me 3 J/K man Unfortunetly our industry attract's just those types:bang:


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## IcePick (Feb 1, 2010)

*?*

Yeah, perhaps you should be more careful on who you're hiring? I know you don't have to have a bad ass resume to get a job with a tree crew, but first impressions go a long way.


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## mndlawn (Feb 1, 2010)

And I thought I had bad luck hiring employees.


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## tree md (Feb 1, 2010)

I used to work with a bunch of drunks but I got rid of most of my dead weight over a year ago. My main guy is a 26 year Army and National Guard vet and has the same philosophy as me when it comes to a time to work and a time to play. 

My other main guy is a recovering alcoholic who I have had to pull up out of the gutter a couple of times. He is from a small town not far from where I am from in N. GA. I don't work him when he is drinking. He has worked for me for two years and has relapsed twice. As long as he keeps trying and don't give up I'll not give up on him. When he is sober he is a beast. He can hump 200 pound logs all day long and is very proficient with a saw.

I am the only drunk on the crew. 

However, I believe in a time to work and a time to play. I have never shown up for work drinking or drunk. I drink a lot less than I did when I was younger anyway and have pretty much given up the hard stuff. Very rare for me to drink more than 2 beers in one setting anymore. And I can't stand to work hung over.

Coming up working for tree services it was pretty common place for guys to smoke dope. I can't say that I have always been a saint myself but when I was a child I did childish things, when I became a man I put away childish things. If someone does their own thing in their operation I have nothing to say about that. I have seen better climbers than myself who use drugs and I actually caught the owner of one of the largest tree services in the old town I lived in toking it up just before he entered a tree to do a crane job. It was his operation and his prerogative. I was just an employee and he was the guy who signed my check. I would never do it though. There is too much liability to the people on the ground and the property below. I have too much respect for myself, the people who work for me and the people I work for to ever put their lives or property in danger due to gross negligence on my part.

Not to mention the fact that I'm sure the first thing OSHA would do in the event of an accident is do a drug and alcohol test. I imagine someone would have a lot of splaining to do if they came up dirty and would probably loose everything they owned.


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## clearance (Feb 1, 2010)

Just because some one is clean and sober, it doesn't mean they are ok. I know this personaly, when you don't drink, don't use, never cut loose, it can get to you, you think you are ok because you are clean. But that is no garauntee. I am a way better worker than an employee. What I am saying is that although I work hard, I could be a problem when I used and drank, and still can be. People are better straight, but it doesn't make us perfect. 

That was a pretty good post tree md. You sound like a decent boss.


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## outofmytree (Feb 1, 2010)

> I can't say that I have always been a saint myself but when I was a child I did childish things, when I became a man I put away childish things.



Lot of wisdom in that old book.

Been young and dumb myself. I seem to be maturing but that could just the booze talking.


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## danieltree (Feb 1, 2010)

I was the drunk at one point. I have been sober a few years now and can tell you the difference in my work is a thousand percent. I never would drink during work hours but was usually so hung over I was probably dangerous. I can not find a limb dragger that does not smoke pot , I discourage its use before work and forbid it during work but when they leave my job and I am not paying they can do what they want . I let them know that I carry workmans comp and they are covered but if something happens the first thing I am going to do is piss test them. I find that the quality goes up if the pay goes up, maybe if you paid better you would get better help.​


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## treevet (Feb 1, 2010)

Friend of mine that has a landscaping company told his 20 employees after work they would be drug tested the next day. The parking lot was empty.

A guy I had as a gm told me he called a decent size company for a job before me and the boss asked him if he smoked pot. He said no and the guy tells him he won't fit in with his crew.


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## treeslayer (Feb 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> Not to mention the fact that I'm sure the first thing OSHA would do in the event of an accident is do a drug and alcohol test. I imagine someone would have a lot of splaining to do if they came up dirty and would probably loose everything they owned.



Every EM in the country is going to test for substances in the event of a work injury, its hospital policy. 

So if the employee tests dirty, in the eyes of the law(yers), it's a drug/alcohol environment unless there are specific written policies on file and in place for the company whose employee just cut his leg off.
still have to prove the employee was clearly violating company policy, not just common sense, by being lit on the job.

Regardless, it becomes the employers fault at some point, if billy bob's drunk arse drops a tree on the house while the boss is offsite, or drops a tree on himself.


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## banshee67 (Feb 1, 2010)

just wondering how you prove someone is "under the influence" of marijuana ?
the kid could have smoked a joint 2 weeks ago and still fail a piss test, pot testing is a gray area.
and remember in 14 states pot is medication.. so maybe its not as bad as "they" say it is?
all in all if someone works, and works hard, does good, listens, and gets along well.. who cares if they smoked a half a joint before work? like someone else said, its the guys who dont drink or smoke anything that you have to worry about, they are ticking timebombs! lol
now drunks, thats another story, drunks are about as bad as junkies in some cases. they live their life in one big hangover, never coming out of it, living in a fog, its sad.. i dont know how anyone could work with alcohol in their system.. or even want to


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## pdqdl (Feb 1, 2010)

I'll bet a saliva test strip would work pretty good for MaryJ. I don't look to see it happen in the near future. Most agencies are happy with a definitive test that covers the last two weeks. Test positive...See Ya!

If my stoners would just leave that crap at home, I wouldn't care. My experience tells me that IF you smoke pot at all, then following rules is not your strong point. So I should not expect a pot smoker to follow my rules any more than they follow society's. I have caught so many guys smoking on the job, during lunch break, and before work that I refuse to believe that any of them will be honorable about it. They ALL say they keep it at home, but I have never found one that truly did.

Some guys will leave it completely alone until the goofy stoner that I hired lights up next to them at lunch. Then they all have to share...By sharing, they compel the entire group to join ranks with them in breaking the rules, not finking each other out, and in general, undermine the order of the workplace.


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## danieltree (Feb 1, 2010)

Whoever says smoking pot does not affect job performance is lying to themselves .​


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## climber338 (Feb 1, 2010)

Im in college for landscaping at the moment but will be moving onto arboriculture next year. I am one of the 3 kids in my class of 25 that dont smoke pot and you can tell that all the other kids just dont care what so ever about there problems. Our grades show it as well, my buddy is 1 im 2 and the other guy is 3rd grade wise in our class. I kinda laugh inside when they all go out to smoke. Im waiting till they are all 30 and cant do a full days work because they cant breath. Arborist are athletes IMO and you need to keep your body in shape. Good luck when you cant breath half way up the tree guys lol.


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## banshee67 (Feb 1, 2010)

danieltree said:


> Whoever says smoking pot does not affect job performance is lying to themselves .​



youre 100% right, it increases my production and efforts all while enjoying a beautiful day in the woods


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## banshee67 (Feb 1, 2010)

climber338 said:


> Im in college for landscaping at the moment but will be moving onto arboriculture next year. I am one of the 3 kids in my class of 25 that dont smoke pot and you can tell that all the other kids just dont care what so ever about there problems. Our grades show it as well, my buddy is 1 im 2 and the other guy is 3rd grade wise in our class. I kinda laugh inside when they all go out to smoke. Im waiting till they are all 30 and cant do a full days work because they cant breath. Arborist are athletes IMO and you need to keep your body in shape. Good luck when you cant breath half way up the tree guys lol.




wait, are you talkin about smoking pot or smoking cigarettes? they all go outside of class to smoke pot?
smoking pot is totally different than smoking cigarettes, say the average cigarette you take 50+ puffs off of, and a pack (20) a day isnt even considered a lot... on the other hand,50 puffs of pot is probably all i take in a weeks time.. and it doesnt have nearly the amount of crap in it as cigarettes.
true ignorance is on display here .. it all depends on the person, many lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc, smoke pot at night.. you would never know, although you are in college so you probably know something the rest of us dont. i know, and im sure you know, MANY people who have gone to college, have great jobs, are responsible and carry on their lives the same as someone who doesnt smoke pot
im so sick of the ignorance.. anyone who has a few beers after work doesnt have to listen to this type of ignorance by people who dont know what they are saying... why do people who smoke a little pot have to?


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## Garden Of Eden (Feb 1, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> wait, are you talkin about smoking pot or smoking cigarettes? they all go outside of class to smoke pot?
> smoking pot is totally different than smoking cigarettes, say the average cigarette you take 50+ puffs off of, and a pack (20) a day isnt even considered a lot... on the other hand,50 puffs of pot is probably all i take in a weeks time.. and it doesnt have nearly the amount of crap in it as cigarettes.
> *true ignorance is on display here* .. it all depends on the person, many lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc, smoke pot at night.. you would never know, although you are in college so you probably know something the rest of us dont. i know, and im sure you know, MANY people who have gone to college, have great jobs, are responsible and carry on their lives the same as someone who doesnt smoke pot
> im so sick of the ignorance.. anyone who has a few beers after work doesnt have to listen to this type of ignorance by people who dont know what they are saying... *why do people who smoke a little pot have to?*




I agree, ignorance is on display. People who smoke pot have to listen, because it's a mind and mood altering, illegal narcotic. I know certain states have 'legalized' it, however, if you look at the foreign countries that have, crime has risen sharply. I personally drug test all employees. I make sure they all know it's zero tolerance. This job is dangerous enough, we don't need delayed reaction times, and a lax mental attitude.

BTW, the argument that lawyers/Docs, and other people do it, so why can't I? Is a little ignorant. I know doctors that cut themselves for pleasure, so shouldn't we all? I know a Lawyer in my town, that just got brought up on Rape charges, C'mon mom, I wanna too! A small minority of a group should never be taken as a rule. Also, again, I stress, it's illegal. 

So, that's why we strap you dope-heads down and make you listen with a gun to your head.

Jeff

FYI, I thought I should mention this so I don't get the typical, response, "you just never tried it..." I used to do all kinds of illegal narcotics, for all the same reasons, most people do. Then I grew up and stopped the childish behaviors. Been drug free over 3 and a half yrs now. God Bless


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## pdqdl (Feb 1, 2010)

Excuses, excuses.

I know a fair number of folks that have quit smoking both pot and cigarettes. Not one of them has ever said they regretted the choice.

I know even more people that have tried to quit, but failed. They generally admit that they would still quit if they could.

I don't know anybody that started smoking anything late in life that declared "Gee ! I sure wish I had started sooner!"

I have seen LOTS of young men ruin their lives by spending that weekly check on another stash of weed while the kids go hungry, the wife wishes for better things, and my employee just wastes it all on brain dilution. It doesn't matter if it is weed, cigarettes, booze, or any of the harder stuff. It all ruins your health, distorts your perception of reality, and wastes your money.

Justifying one bad habit by comparing it to another one is foolish. 

An economic note: if you burn a pack of cigarettes per day (@ $3.00/pack), starting at 18 years old, by the time you are 65, you will have burned up your retirement. If invested at 10%, calculated on a avg daily balance, that will come to $1,196,489.03. Add a quart of beer at $2.00 per day, and a trip to a fast food at $5.00 per day, that comes to $3,988,296.78 you blew during your working years.


Put that in your pipe and smoke it!


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## Garden Of Eden (Feb 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Put that in your pipe and smoke it!



Nice! My sentiments exactly. 

Have a good, safe, sane, sober one pdqdl.

Oh, and almost no one will tell you they regret remembering what they did they day before too!

God bless


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## tree MDS (Feb 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I wasn't sure which area to post this, so I stuck it here.
> 
> I have problems with alcoholics & drug heads working for me. I have at least solved the drunk problem with this jewel:
> 
> ...



I'm guessing your problem is that you are simply too smart for tree service owning pdqdl... it could be a tough road.


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## fishercat (Feb 1, 2010)

*they are everywhere.*

I have no employees.I work with other tree guys who I know are sober so I only have an issue when I work with Irish Cops.


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## IcePick (Feb 2, 2010)

What I meant to say was (after I've sobered up this morning) Is if you need to carry around that little gadget in your pocket and make a grown man use it, you're doing something wrong with your business practices.


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## Tree Pig (Feb 2, 2010)

fishercat said:


> I have no employees.I work with other tree guys who I know are sober so I only have an issue when I work with Irish Cops.



I think you may be referring to someone I know but I just cant come up with a name... Oh #### its me. Its a good thing I dont drink because I am pretty sure I wouldnt be a cop anymore. Someone would prolly own my house now for the cost of hospital bills.


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## treevet (Feb 2, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> experience tells me that IF you smoke pot at all, then following rules is not your strong point. So I should not expect a pot smoker to follow my rules any more
> .



biggest problem you're gonna have (after injury and/or property damage) with them (stoners) is short term memory loss. Watch out for em to drop the wrong tree when you're not there or remove the wrong lead and you end up in a huge law suit.

Keep an eye on em and you'll know who they are as their chests grow boobs after perpetual use (long term mammary gain lol....just thought of that haha). Heard doctors say that.

My CA GM is 4 years sober AA. I am 21 years sober non AA. All I have ever needed is one GM and that cuts down on the percentages of getting intoxicated help. Had a guy run a saw into his thigh and another run an 044 into his face while high found out afterwards. Both times I temp had 2 gm's and they are more apt to get loaded in a group.

I have been the guy that got loaded on the job many years ago.


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## outofmytree (Feb 2, 2010)

I am zero tolerance with my crew out of personal choice. The fact that it is an OHS requirement is just extra ammo. I take safety very seriously and have spent thousands of dollars making my guys as safe as they can be in this hazardous industry. If any of them are stupid enough to turn up drunk or stoned they catch a cab home. If I ever caught anyone drinking or lighting up (never have) they would need an ambulance home. No way is anyone going to put me, my boys, my clients or the general public in danger.

Rant over.


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## EdenT (Feb 2, 2010)

Hello, my name is EdenT and I am a drug addict..........OH CRAP! wrong forum!........bye


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## EdenT (Feb 2, 2010)

But more seriously. I will not tolerate workmates being under the influence of anything. I had a groundie once come to work stoned (pot). He was pulling a tag line on a 10' stick I was felling. I couldn't figure out why it had sat on my saw until I saw slack in the tag line. Hauled ass onto the rope and pulled it over OK. Grilled groundie who tells me he was pulling as hard as he could. That's when I realized the f'er was stoned. Should have told the boss but didn't. Spent most the rest of the day lecturing said groundie and told him if he ever turned up stoned again I would ensure it was his last day.

I smoke a bit of pot myself, drink rarely and never touch anything else. My rules are that I don't drink on any evening before work, and never smoke until the days work is done. Keeps me safe and keeps me sane (well at least I think I am, and so do I).


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## tree MDS (Feb 2, 2010)

I never smoke while working, takes the fun out of it and makes it a general drag (no pun intended). 

I drink too much as well, never at work though. That being said I work with a couple of excellent, long time sober treeguys (that are close friends of mine) on a regular basis, and nobody ever has any complaints about my operation. 

Some people are just morons, regardless of what they do or dont do after work ...you'll have that.


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## pdqdl (Feb 2, 2010)

When I posted this thread, I knew it would ignite a bunch of comments on both sides of the "substance abuse" aisle. What I didn't expect was that nobody would comment on the neat little breathalyzer, how it works, or whether they thought it was a good idea.

So far, my guys have all liked it. Even the ones that are prone to coming in under the influence, because then they get out of work 'cause they are unfit, rather than just hungover and tired. They don't need to call in sick, they will come in and just tell me that they probably shouldn't work this morning. We test, they go home without a lot of hard feelings.

It still counts as an unexcused absence, but it's much better than not coming in or making up some bogus excuse.


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## jh504 (Feb 2, 2010)

Sounds like a cool little tool. I work for EMS so I definitely work with a bunch of drunks. Thankfully we dont have the problem with folks clocking in under the influence though. Do that in our line of work and you loose your certification, job, and maybe go to jail.

I personally have been sober for 6 years. Im a much better person without it.


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## tree md (Feb 2, 2010)

I think it would be pretty cool to use at a house party to decide whether or not someone could drive (or discourage one from doing so).

As far as use on the job. I don't need a breathalyzer. I was a screw off myself long enough to know when someone is f-ed up. Plus I have worked with my guys long enough and work closely enough to them to know if there is a problem with one of them.


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## treevet (Feb 2, 2010)

jh504 said:


> Sounds like a cool little tool. I work for EMS so I definitely work with a bunch of drunks. Thankfully we dont have the problem with folks clocking in under the influence though. Do that in our line of work and you loose your certification, job, and maybe go to jail.
> 
> I personally have been sober for 6 years. Im a much better person without it.



congratulations on 6 years.


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## pdqdl (Feb 2, 2010)

*Ooops. I thought of another good reason to have one:*

It is also part of every employers federally mandated obligation to do random and "reasonably suspected" drug and alcohol testing. 

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/topics/drug/engtesting.htm

This little tester meets Federal guidlines, and is one heck of a lot cheaper than sending an employee off to a lab.

I paid $20 for a drug screen with alcohol test earlier this year on an employee before I bought my little tester. I was really after just the BAC, but I got him on other stuff, too.

You guys that hire very many people and don't do any testing would be surprised how much goes on that you don't know about.


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## Saw Bones (Feb 2, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I wasn't sure which area to post this, so I stuck it here.
> 
> I have problems with alcoholics & drug heads working for me. I have at least solved the drunk problem with this jewel:
> 
> ...



We require a prehire physical with a drug test, and do random drug testing every now and then. You have to be careful not to single any one out. Or you can surprise test the whole crew from time to time. (we do that too)

In the event of an incident every one on the site has to take a drug test as well. A zero tollerance policy is the best bet before some one gets hurt or killed, or does some expensive damage.


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## Saw Bones (Feb 2, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Excuses, excuses.
> 
> I know a fair number of folks that have quit smoking both pot and cigarettes. Not one of them has ever said they regretted the choice.
> 
> ...



This comment is not aimed at any one person, but to all out there that are using pot, alcohol, or abusing any other substance legal or illegal. 

I never smoked cigaretts, and I quit using pot about 30 years ago. The only regret I have is that I didn't quit sooner, (or maybe I regret ever starting) I wasted about 10 or 15 years of my life stoned, Lost a pretty good wife, and missed out on a lot with my kids because I was stoned. You can make all the excuses you want to but in the long run the sooner you change your life, the sooner things start going better for you. Thats a fact, I've been there.


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## EdenT (Feb 2, 2010)

Saw Bones said:


> This comment is not aimed at any one person, but to all out there that are using pot, alcohol, or abusing any other substance legal or illegal.
> 
> I never smoked cigaretts, and I quit using pot about 30 years ago. The only regret I have is that I didn't quit sooner, (or maybe I regret ever starting) I wasted about 10 or 15 years of my life stoned, Lost a pretty good wife, and missed out on a lot with my kids because I was stoned. You can make all the excuses you want to but in the long run the sooner you change your life, the sooner things start going better for you. Thats a fact, I've been there.



Sawbones, I completely agree with you. Smoking, Drinking or any kind of substance abuse is a guaranteed way to waste time, money and make less of life than you otherwise would. I do smoke cigarettes as well. I would like to give it all up and have tried to do so many times. I guess for some of us it is just harder.

As far as the device goes I think it is a borderline infringement on civil liberties. If your employee's are willing to take the test then great. If they decline do you sack them? Also if you just give them the day off are you not breeding contempt for the whole turn up to work sober thing. If I were in your workers position I would be turning up, possibly in a substandard condition, and seeing if 'I beat the system'. If I don't I get the day off to party again (or recover). If you are going to preach zero tolerance then that means you sack workers who turn up under the influence in my book.

(Yes I know with current pot testing methods I would be sacked up to two months from my last smoke - and that's just stupid.)


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## pdqdl (Feb 2, 2010)

I went out and purchased the AL-7000 because I hired a man with an alcohol problem. I was working with him with his complete consent, just to keep him at work. Unfortunately, I discovered that I could not keep him sober, and he continued to defeat my efforts to keep him sober.

Having discovered that I could be fooled about when he was drinking, I eliminated any chance of being fooled by acquiring a foolproof test. At this point I was already obliged as an employer to accepting his condition. I was honor bound to not fire him for being a drunk, only for being drunk on the job.

My efforts to keep him sober were so extensive, I only gave him $30 on payday, and withheld the rest of the money. I would parse it out to him at $7.00 per day for living expenses, and would make larger advances upon request. Toward the end, if he tested with any alcohol in his system at all while he was on the clock, he forfeited the entire days pay. 

None of my efforts made any difference. He would still slip out and find something to drink. After several warnings, and having caught him repeatedly operating a machine under the influence, he blew more than twice the legal limit after driving down the road in a rented backhoe.

I fired him. 

Now I am still parsing out all $6,000 he had saved up in small increments to him. He has gone through $2900 in 6 weeks, and is not paying for any rent, utilities, or vehicles. It will be very sad when he runs out of money, because then he will probably be a ward of the State.

BTW: he spent 18 months in prison for driving drunk. Even though he was eligible for reinstatement, I never got him his license, because I knew he would go back.

Since then, I like having the tester for other purposes. Like DOT compliance and keeping the other drunks out of the trucks.


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## Toddppm (Feb 2, 2010)

Hey I thought the tree climbers who smoke and proud of it forum was over at the Treehouse? 


Haha, not me anymore. Lonnnnnnngggg times ago. I don't see how I wasted so much time in my life with that crap. Used to be the only goal I had was to score again. Now there's not enough time in any day to do all I want to.


I am suspicious of a couple of my guys being high on the job, been there done that and can't believe I didn't catch it. 

There will be drug tests for them in their future if they want to stay. Ya hear that boys? (maybe they're reading this):censored:


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## pdqdl (Feb 2, 2010)

Just quote DOT regulations, and put them on a random drug testing program. 

I got fined $2000 by DOT for NOT drug testing someone before I hired them. When DOT decides to knock on your door, you had better be ready with daily vehicle log sheets, daily inspection sheets, "prior to employment" drug testing, and a certifiably random drug testing program that assures testing each man at a pre-determined number of times per year (I think it is once or twice per year).

They will smile and be friendly during the audit, telling you they are not there to generate fines. Then they fine you. BIG TIME.


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## banshee67 (Feb 5, 2010)

live and let live

your company, your call, of course

but it does effect everyone differently, not every person who smokes pot at night while watching tv is a drug addict that neglects his children, or spends all his money on pot. generalizing and stereotyping is worse than assuming.

getting high all day while trying to work? thats stupid.. where is the fun in that, an hour later your all burnt out, draggin ass, wishing the day was over.. 
but waiting all day, busting ass, sweating, bleeding, for 8-10 hours.. im sure as hell gona come home and pack up the bong and relax. live and let live, lifes too short!


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## BakerTREE (Feb 6, 2010)

dangerous enough industry ... no need to mix two kind of highs. Please be safe out there


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## pdqdl (Feb 6, 2010)

I didn't intend for this to become a drug-testing, anti-pot thread, but it seems to headed that way. Oh well, it's not a bad topic.

Even for the fellows that use the "bong at night" approach sensibly, that does not enable an employer to keep them at work. We are under federal regulation that absolutely requires drug testing. Pot cannot be excluded from that test, and you cannot cleanup for daytime testing only.

_So pot is out for the man that wants to keep a job with a real company that operates like a real business._ If you independent operators ever hope to take your road show to the next level and begin hiring regular employees that safely operate your fleet of trucks, then you too will be required to follow the rules. 

DOT will even make you drug screen yourself.


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## tree MDS (Feb 6, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I didn't intend for this to become a drug-testing, anti-pot thread, but it seems to headed that way. Oh well, it's not a bad topic.
> 
> Even for the fellows that use the "bong at night" approach sensibly, that does not enable an employer to keep them at work. We are under federal regulation that absolutely requires drug testing. Pot cannot be excluded from that test, and you cannot cleanup for daytime testing only.
> 
> ...



Ya well, we all know society is becoming more and more #####ified. lol.

I like my old school saying: "a treeman is a free man".


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## Mass tree guy (Feb 6, 2010)

I work @ Bartlett Tree Experts here in Mass..

I actually like the fact that they drug screen people here..

I hate working with losers....Don't get me wrong I'll drink a few beers or 20 on the weekends but thats a different story..

I used to do irrigation and boy was my old boss a drunk...dude was hopeless..If he didn't have his 12 beers during the course of a work day he was an #######.


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## tree MDS (Feb 6, 2010)

Mass tree guy said:


> I work @ Bartlett Tree Experts here in Mass..
> 
> I actually like the fact that they drug screen people here..
> 
> ...



How the hell is 20 beers any better than 6 or seven tokes of weed a night?? 

Crackheads are the real problem out there!


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## Mass tree guy (Feb 6, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> How the hell is 20 beers any better than 6 or seven tokes of weed a night??
> 
> Crackheads are the real problem out there!




Pot don't bother me I think its stupid that its so scrutinized...I've seen some pretty sharp people on and off the weed during the work day.Doesn't bother me 1 bit.I also think it sucks pot stays in your system for 30 days..They need to change the tests so they can determine if you just burned a J...

But my old irrigation boss had to have his 12 pack starting in the morning around 7-8 and finish this work beers around 4 or 5..dude was a flaming everday boozebag....Very good @ irrigation though...


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## tree MDS (Feb 6, 2010)

Mass tree guy said:


> Pot don't bother me I think its stupid that its so scrutinized...I've seen some pretty sharp people on and off the weed during the work day.Doesn't bother me 1 bit.I also think it sucks pot stays in your system for 30 days..They need to change the tests so they can determine if you just burned a J...
> 
> But my old irrigation boss had to have his 12 pack starting in the morning around 7-8 and finish this work beers around 4 or 5..dude was a flaming everday boozebag....Very good @ irrigation though...



I've actually met people that would do coke even though they would preffer weed, just because of drug testing being mandatory at their job... tell me that makes any sense!


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## Mass tree guy (Feb 6, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I've actually met people that would do coke even though they would preffer weed, just because of drug testing being mandatory at their job... tell me that makes any sense!



Its so sad..

weed -30 days
heroin- 3-4 days
crack-3-4
meth-3-4

worst drugs leave your system so fast..
Change the testing rules...
I have worked with crackheads in insulation...Very bad people..


would you rather have

This has really happened to me

crackhead,"can you pull the truck over"
me,"why,we running slow cause you didn't come in until 8:25"
crackhead,"I've been smoking crack all night and need to puke for a few seconds"
me,"ok"

few weeks later I left that trade F that place and those people.
I would rather give a pothead half my sandwich than loose my wallet to a Basehead..

truth.


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## tree MDS (Feb 6, 2010)

Yep. There's no way to be a good dude if you're on any of the hard drugs... some have tried, they're only fooling themselves.


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## pdqdl (Feb 6, 2010)

Having hired LOTS of chemically dependent employees since 1982, here is my take on the different ways the drugs affect you. Of course I am referring to hard core abuse, not the occasional sample.

Alcohol: makes you unreliable to get to work, you work slower, and over the years it makes you stupid. Decent folks otherwise, although the drunks tend to be more emotional people with ego problems. When it is real bad, their desire to get back to the bottle will keep them from working late on a project or it will make them work fast and sloppy just to be done. Quitting time is project number one! 

Pot: Lazy, don't care attitudes. Not real good attendance, 'cause they just don't care. The THC never quits coursing through their veins, and they don't seem to realize that they are affected all the time, not just when they are stoned. Usually reasonably easy going, they are also very abusive to equipment, because they JUST DON'T CARE. They are the VERY worst "bring your drug" to work people, they are also the hardest people to manage because they won't do what you tell them to do. Socially engaging, most of them try hard to be popular with co-workers, while at the same time letting you (the employer) know that they are socially rebellious. They are the most divisive, "us-against-them" employees you will hire.

Meth, in any number of permutations: These are the fireballs on the job! They will work fast and furious some of the time, and other times they are very down, both in production and temperament. They tend to have real social problems, and will disappear without answering the phone for days at a time. Getting quality work out of them just isn't going to happen, because they are either cranked up, tearing up equipment or property, or they are "down" and can't hardly bring themselves to do a good job. They also seem to be more inclined to having problems getting along with other folks at work. These folks will tell you anything, they are the worst liars going.

Cocaine, in any number of permutations: generally, these are the hardest people to detect on the job, unless they are really stretched out. When they are going on binges, they disappear like the meth heads. Generally, you can find them easiest because they are the guys that are always out of money on Monday morning. They tend to be thin, underfed, and generally less productive on the job because they don't eat right. (also a BIG problem with the meth-heads) The cocaine users really tend to binge the paycheck on the cocaine, and balance out the rest of their time getting drunk. These folks are usually pretty likeable, especially since they are always being extra polite so that you will loan them money, share cigarettes with them (I don't smoke, but I see it), or otherwise fill some need of theirs. They tend to be the more helpless guys on the job.

Heroin and other really bad stuff: these folks are generally so spooky and sunken eyed looking that you don't keep them around long enough to find out what they are really like. They are consumed by their multiple drug dependencies, and they look like it. I don't think I have had too many of them working for me.


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## tree md (Feb 6, 2010)

I am fortunate that none of the guys on my crew do drugs. We are all older guys and have put the weed behind us. Me and my rope guy like to drink a little beer but it's a very rare occasion to find either one of us drunk. My other guy, the recovering alcoholic never drinks or uses anything else. There were two times that he fell off the wagon but the alcohol ravages him so bad he can't last but a week or so on the stuff.

I have went through several people too and you can find good dependable people if you try. They are going to be mostly the older guys. Maybe not as fast as the young guys but more dependable. It is very challenging to find someone under 30 who is not smoking weed. And personally, I could care less as long as they leave it at home.

My observations are much like yours PDQDL. However, that is when you are dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts. Which there are a lot of them out there but not all. I have had the guys who drink a couple of beers after work (which I am one of), eat supper, go to bed early and are ready to go the next morning. I call this group the adults.

I have also had the guys who like to go home, smoke a little weed, Play their video games that they tend to be addicted to, eat supper, go to bed early and are ready to go the next morning. I call this group adults as well.

As long as either one of these groups show up for work when I need them and do a good job I could care less what they do on their own time.

If I catch wind of anyone using meth, heroin or coke I will drop them like a hot potato. Very unreliable and dangerous. Not to mention they will usually steal everything that is not nailed down.

When someone starts letting their habits affect their job performance I will have a talk with them and if they don't tighten up I will get rid of them. But it's usually job attendance or poor performance that I get rid of them over. 

I had to fight a guy to get him to leave my job site once when he came back from lunch drunk. And I have sent guys home before when I knew they had gotten high on the job. I have never used any kind of chemical substance or alcohol ever on the job and I will not put up with it out of my crew. I have worked with guys that smoke weed on the job but it wasn't my show and I had nothing to say about that. And I have nothing to say about how anyone else operates or runs their show. If you want to smoke on the job that's on you. Not happening on my crew though.


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## Mass tree guy (Feb 6, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Having hired LOTS of chemically dependent employees since 1982, here is my take on the different ways the drugs affect you. Of course I am referring to hard core abuse, not the occasional sample.
> 
> Alcohol: makes you unreliable to get to work, you work slower, and over the years it makes you stupid. Decent folks otherwise, although the drunks tend to be more emotional people with ego problems. When it is real bad, their desire to get back to the bottle will keep them from working late on a project or it will make them work fast and sloppy just to be done. Quitting time is project number one!
> 
> ...




From the sounds of it..

you could write a great book!!!!

so which are the best?


boozebags?


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## Blakesmaster (Feb 6, 2010)

One of the local tree service owners picked me up a few months back for a contract climb. I'd seen his crew and how they operate before...beat up equipment, no ppe, etc. I new this guy but had never personally worked for him. I'm not in his SUV 2 minutes when he asked if I smoke and lit up a joint. I told him no and quickly segued into a conversation about how no one but me uses my saws. I'm cool with stoners but for christ's sake, keep it off the job.


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## capetrees (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't care what people do on their own time but don't bring it or the residuals to work. Thats my time. Hung over, need to go to court, DTs, phone calls, no way on the job. Can't go full speed because you're hung over, go home. Don't need you and won't pay you. No tolerance. My dad was hard on me so it passes on. You want to drink hard, go ahead but in the morning, be prepared to work like you never went out or there will be hell to pay. Don't slow me down because you can't keep up.


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## IcePick (Feb 6, 2010)

*What to do???*

Man Pdqdl, you have quite the eye when it comes to spotting drug use! It's almost as if you copy and pasted that stuff off another website!

However, like I said earlier, maybe page 1 or 2, I think forcing a grown man to use that little gadget before you allow him to work is absurd. If you recognize that someone is hungover and needs to go home or drag brush all day, ask him if that's the case. 

It sounds like if our industry regulated mandatory drug testing on ALL tree workers/arborists, there would be one hell of a workforce shortage...more than there already is. 

I have no tolerance for drug abusers as well, and we have none at our place. Maybe a few guys smoke weed, I don't really know or care to be honest. Weed is one thing, hard drugs are in a whole different category. I suppose if I noticed someones work suffering from drug use, I'd do something about it.


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## rob b (Feb 6, 2010)

My company has a strick drug policy and random tests quarterly. Most of the guys i work with are boozers but it seldomly affects there work they keep it at home. Ive worked with them all at different times i was subed to climb for a well known busniess years ago all hard core bikers great to work with but big cokers. The stoners were ok but a l i t t l e slow dude. I have a couple beers so im no saint but i learned along time ago you dont let it affect your job


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 6, 2010)

IcePick said:


> Man Pdqdl, you have quite the eye when it comes to spotting drug use! It's almost as if you copy and pasted that stuff off another website!
> 
> However, like I said earlier, maybe page 1 or 2, I think forcing a grown man to use that little gadget before you allow him to work is absurd. If you recognize that someone is hungover and needs to go home or drag brush all day, ask him if that's the case.
> 
> ...





 Damn good post!
Jeff


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## capetrees (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't think so.

By saying there would be a shortage in manpower if they had a drug and alchohol testing program, is that to say the industry is loaded with abusers?

Sounds pretty scary.


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## tree MDS (Feb 6, 2010)

capetrees said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> By saying there would be a shortage in manpower if they had a drug and alchohol testing program, is that to say the industry is loaded with abusers?
> 
> Sounds pretty scary.



What have you been living under a rock or something dude??

Its always been like that with treeworkers ... I'm not saying its a good thing, but it is a fact.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 6, 2010)

:monkey: How did we ever survive?
Jeff


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## tree md (Feb 6, 2010)

capetrees said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> By saying there would be a shortage in manpower if they had a drug and alchohol testing program, is that to say the industry is loaded with abusers?
> 
> Sounds pretty scary.



I did monolithic foundations in my late teens and early 20's. It was what I mostly did before I got into tree work. Most crews were all out drunks and addicts. I was no saint but I was a saint compared to most of those guys. Most of that work is subcontracted but a very large, multi state, residential home builder decided to go in house and do his own foundations. He bought equipment and put three crews to work. You had to pass a drug test to work for this company and they had a hard time filling positions. 

I was actually already doing tree work when the GM got my name from one of his foremen that I had worked with in the past and called to recruit me. He offered me too much money and benefits to pass it up. I gave two weeks notice where I was at and started doing my orientation for the other company. While I was doing my orientation the GM got me alone and said that he had been told by the foreman that I was very good at the job and he wanted to make sure that I was going to be able to pass the UA and told me to take more time if I needed to clean up. I was not smoking weed at that point, it was no big deal and told him I would have no problems. He told me he knew many great workers but they were having trouble filling positions because they couldn't find people who could pass the UA. 

I'll tell you that the money and working conditions were much better working for that outfit than any other; even if you did have to work with a bunch of green hands that had no idea what they were doing...


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## highpointtree (Feb 6, 2010)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I agree, ignorance is on display. People who smoke pot have to listen, because it's a mind and mood altering, illegal narcotic. I know certain states have 'legalized' it, however, if you look at the foreign countries that have, crime has risen sharply. I personally drug test all employees. I make sure they all know it's zero tolerance. This job is dangerous enough, we don't need delayed reaction times, and a lax mental attitude.
> 
> BTW, the argument that lawyers/Docs, and other people do it, so why can't I? Is a little ignorant. I know doctors that cut themselves for pleasure, so shouldn't we all? I know a Lawyer in my town, that just got brought up on Rape charges, C'mon mom, I wanna too! A small minority of a group should never be taken as a rule. Also, again, I stress, it's illegal.
> 
> ...



nothing worse than a reformed drug addict or alchoholic.. yea in my hayday I smoked more pot than most people did cig's. and these days I save it for camping or fishing. (so about 3-4 times a year ) no time or place for it around work, chainsaw's and equipment. and since I'm signing the check's, I insist everyone else is straight also. I do drug test, but more for insurance reason's. other than that there's no test nessassary. been there done that and I will know when your doing it...


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## highpointtree (Feb 6, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I went out and purchased the AL-7000 because I hired a man with an alcohol problem. I was working with him with his complete consent, just to keep him at work. Unfortunately, I discovered that I could not keep him sober, and he continued to defeat my efforts to keep him sober.
> 
> Having discovered that I could be fooled about when he was drinking, I eliminated any chance of being fooled by acquiring a foolproof test. At this point I was already obliged as an employer to accepting his condition. I was honor bound to not fire him for being a drunk, only for being drunk on the job.
> 
> ...



sounds like your his mom or parole occifer (hiccup). you don't change people, they change themselves...


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 6, 2010)

Lots of things were illegal, depends if they can tax it to make it leagal. 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 6, 2010)

Lots of things were illegal, depends if they can tax it to make it legal. 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 6, 2010)

Lee-gal
Leagal
legal 
What-ever
Jeff


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## EdenT (Feb 6, 2010)

I would be interested to know how many of you anti-drug people out there use alcohol. It is a *legal* narcotic (because it is easily taxed) and as such accepted in society. A person having a drink at lunchtime is something most of us wouldn't even notice unless they were obviously drunk. This legal narcotic leads to many adverse effects and terrible events occurring. Nobody bashes their wives or gets into fights because they're stoned on pot. When people drink and drive they think they can drive faster. When people smoke and drive they drive slower. 

As far as the other drugs go, well if it makes you think you can fly, then stay the hell away from me. People should be free to do whatever they want in their own time (as long as it stays in their own time), provided they do not have an adverse effect on others. If some idiot wants to kill himself with heroin that's fine by me as long as they clean up their needles and #### so no-one else has to be adversely affected by it.

The problem I have with alcohol, cocaine and meth is that the user tends to share their problems with the world. They are the unpredictable crazy ones who can be fine one minute and a PITA the next. They are the ones who have violent outbursts, outrageous self confidence (particularly when doing dangerous things), and talk #### constantly.

All that aside it seems there is a consensus of opinion, at least in this thread that drugs do not belong in the workplace and that is a good thing. To those who say I am still affected by pot for 30 days after I smoke it, BS! I work harder, smarter, longer, and safer than any non-smoker weight for weight that I have ever worked with in any industry. Work ethic and attitude is about who you are as a person, not about how you waste your leisure time.


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## pdqdl (Feb 6, 2010)

highpointtree said:


> sounds like your his mom or parole occifer (hiccup). you don't change people, they change themselves...



That is exactly what I told him.

The only reason I was doing all that crap was because he said he needed help, but wanted to change. When I fired him, I told him I was tired of waiting for change to happen.


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## highpointtree (Feb 6, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> That is exactly what I told him.
> 
> The only reason I was doing all that crap was because he said he needed help, but wanted to change. When I fired him, I told him I was tired of waiting for change to happen.



I stuck it out with a good guy that lived on the dark side. It took two years, but he finally did the rehab thing (on his own) Now we both benifit greatly. sometimes ya win, sometimes ya don't.


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## pdqdl (Feb 7, 2010)

IcePick said:


> Man Pdqdl, you have quite the eye when it comes to spotting drug use! It's almost as if you copy and pasted that stuff off another website!
> 
> However, like I said earlier, maybe page 1 or 2, I think forcing a grown man to use that little gadget before you allow him to work is absurd. If you recognize that someone is hungover and needs to go home or drag brush all day, ask him if that's the case.
> ...



No copy and paste, I never did anything but started typing. Like I said, I have hired LOTS of chemically dependent employees.

It's not a "little gadget", it is a DOT compliant blood-alcohol detection device. Not only do I require my men to blow in it "upon reasonable suspicion", I will fire anyone that refuses to blow. 

To date, I have never asked anyone to blow in the contraption who has not been drunk. The only guys that I tested besides my bad drunk came to me and reported that they probably shouldn't work. We simply agreed - "Let's find out".

Four years ago, I fired a guy for being staggering drunk and obnoxious at work. He was told to leave at first, and it went downhill after that. When he applied for unemployment insurance, the person doing the evaluation of the case asked me how I could be sure that he was drunk when I fired him. All the descriptions of staggering, slurring words, and unruly conduct were not persuasive. I had to get another employee to state that the offender admitted to being drunk at the time. He was denying ever saying that at the time of the telephone hearing.

20 years ago, I sneaked up on an entire crew and found them drinking beer in a public park they were supposed to be mowing. None of the accused would admit to drinking, and I was doing "breath in my face" tests, which they still denied. They only became honest when I threatened to take them back to their halfway-houses to find out for sure. I sure wish that I had had my pocket tester then.

So not only will the tester help you find out if someone has been drinking on the job, it will protect you from all sorts of legal complications and expenses.

Shucks guys! The biggest market for these devices is the people that want to go drinking, and need to know who can still drive. If you are a drinker, you need one for yourself, just to keep your license safe.


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## banshee67 (Feb 7, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> That is exactly what I told him.
> 
> The only reason I was doing all that crap was because he said he needed help, but wanted to change. When I fired him, I told him I was tired of waiting for change to happen.



are we talkin about obama?


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## pdqdl (Feb 7, 2010)

EdenT said:


> I would be interested to know how many of you anti-drug people out there use alcohol. It is a *legal* narcotic (because it is easily taxed) and as such accepted in society. A person having a drink at lunchtime is something most of us wouldn't even notice unless they were obviously drunk. This legal narcotic leads to many adverse effects and terrible events occurring.
> ...



That is very true [except that alcohol is a depressant, not a narcotic]. 

I never drink enough to get drunk, but I genuinely enjoy a wide variety of alcoholic drinks. Beer, wine, hard liquor, mixed drinks. I like them all. I can't drink too much because I get terrible hangovers. A six pack would ruin me the next day.

I would give it all up and go back to the prohibition days if I thought removing the booze from our society would work. No wine with a steak dinner, no cold beer after work, never again a gin and tonic to end the day. I would vote for prohibition just to get it out of the hands of people that shouldn't have access.

I have seen just as many lives ruined by alcohol as I have by drugs. On the other hand, I do believe the drugs ruin the lives of a higher percentage of participants than the booze does.

Some history on why booze is legal: The illegality of most drugs is not based on the governments inability to tax it. Coca-cola once upon a time was laced with cocaine, and laudanum (tincture of opium) was sold at the corner store. Speed was once a common ingredient in diet pills. All of these products were removed from the market because of the problems they caused, not because the government couldn't tax them. Alcohol, on the other hand, is deeply ingrained into our society, culture, and is even a critical component of many of our religions. 

Beer and wine were originated in pre-history, as much as a method of preserving food value as they were for getting drunk. In addition to storing almost indefinitely, wine and beer tasted good and could be consumed straight from the jug with no further preparation. 

People that drank bottled wine and beer didn't get sick as often, mostly because of the poor sanitation up until modern times. 500 years ago, drinking water was synonymous with getting dysentery, or worse.
Concentrating the alcohol by distillation is thought to have been discovered by the desire to save the alcohol and reduce the shipping weight of wine. The discovery that you could make some really good hootch out of spoiled wine or rotten potatoes was a big advance in food production hundreds of years ago.

Eliminating thousands of years of alcohol consumption by a society would not be much different than asking those people to give up or change their religion. Some would go for it, and others will fight to the death to resist change.


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## EdenT (Feb 7, 2010)

*The history lesson continues....*

Cannabis was not made illegal because it is a drug. It was made illegal by two powerful industry lobbies campaigns during / just after World War II. The first of these lobbies was the then brand new nylon industry which wanted the hemp competition for the rope market removed. The second industry was the coal industry. Pound for Pound hemp burns hotter and produces more energy than coal. All of the crap about it's harmful effects on health were simply an added on marketing ploy.

As far as alcohol is concerned, the only reason they gave up on prohibition is that anyone at all can make their own alcohol. By enforcing prohibition you are supporting in effect the illegal provision of alcohol and creating fertile grounds for organized crime to flourish. This is my problem with prohibition of any illegal drug. As soon as it is prohibited the market moves underground. Price goes up, quality goes down and everybody loses except the big time suppliers. Problems like El Salvador, Columbia, and Afghanistan would not exist but for the illegal drug market.

Incidentally alcohol is more correctly called a suppressant. The way it affects the brain is that it inhibits function centers one at a time as the dosage increases. The first to go is speech, typified by the slurring drunk. The next are what are called the inhibition centers. These are the bits that help you make rational decisions. That's why you sometimes wake up with that scary stranger going 'WTF, oh god my head!' It's also why people fight more, do stupid things and drive cars. It is like losing your civilization. After this you begin to lose balance, sight, taste, smell and finally consciousness. Sometimes you can even inhibit your ability to lose consciousness (which is a self preservation reaction against self harm in this case poisoning) and with continued drinking you will experience alcohol poisoning and then death.

You sound like a responsible drinker PDQDL and I do not begrudge you your daily relaxant. Please don't think that I am a lesser person because I enjoy mine - in the comfort and privacy of my own home affecting nobody else.


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## Toddppm (Feb 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Lots of things were illegal, depends if they can tax it to make it leagal.
> Jeff





jefflovstrom said:


> Lots of things were illegal, depends if they can tax it to make it legal.
> Jeff





jefflovstrom said:


> Lee-gal
> Leagal
> legal
> What-ever
> Jeff




Were you smoking?


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## fishercat (Feb 7, 2010)

*I don't like the gadget idea myself.*

Seems kinda socialist or communist to me.I have more problems with alcohol than weed.I don't care for either but from what I see,weed seems to cause folks a lot less problems.

I figure let them come to work,if they suck,get rid of them.If they work and leave the crap at home.

I find that the best screening process is whether they can sharpen a chain.If they can't,I don't think they should be running saws and other dangerous tree equipment. It's really a simple task to learn and it seems that folks who know how to sharpen a chain are a lot less likely to dull one.


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 7, 2010)

I have a balded tire that I wore out on a chunk of cement when I got stuck in the sand during a bid. Loading that truck up with tons and then going traveling on the free ways when the tire is like that I'm sure is a free ticket to a horror show. In the liklihood that that tire pops on the road, the truck is going to be doing flipping, and the travelers near by will be meeting the doom I have brought their way. 

So what do I do? Grab a new tire. 

It's the same thing with the drunk and high guys. Boss can ride on them for a while, but they're prone to failure. You swap 'em out like my tire.

And the people say that it's every bit of their liberty to live and work clean and drunk/high. That is what they say in so many words. I never hear anything about the liberty to be alive just to exercise the liberty to stay alive in one piece. If drunk and high guys get us killed, which liberty has higher presedence here "in reality"? I think that is all that has to be said.

There is a lot of stress that comes with the world, but I think some people just have to "sack it up" a little more, and stop reaching for the stuff so much. Moderation is the key, and I know there is a whole class of impressive workers out there that live by that key. Their fans though believe that they can all of a sudden transform into a "stud on the grid" because they see that those guys can pull down a few booze here and there and then pull down some major jobs all in a weeks work. Rangers of dangers. 

Those naive guys get stuck in the farce that it's the booze and things that put guys on that level and status, so they hammer away at the stuff like they were eating out a dump truck full of brown popcorn with cracker jack painted on the lid in hopes of finding the gem inside. People make a lot of money off guys like that, and the moderate drinkers make a living and a legendary impression, while ones that abuse the stuff basically sinch themselves up in some hefty bags, worthless, and then thrown overboard by the bosses. Even worse they are a danger to everyone besides all of the other dangers in just doing the job in the place because they are not sharp enough or conscious enough to moderate. 

At the end of all of this being the let down is far from the legendary impression that they originally set out to make. Their distributors take as much money as they'll put into their stuff, and then they disappear somewhere like to live in a camper somewhere on a side street or middle of nowhere or just in your bushes sometimes.

Personally I figure how often I want a drink depends on how much bite I want have. The more drink, the less bite. The less drink, the more right, the bigger the bite. Now, I'm hunting for a big ol' piece of the pie, so I neat a big ol' bite. Besides, that stuff is known as the leading cause of brain decay like sugar on teeth.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 7, 2010)

Toddppm said:


> Were you smoking?


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## Toddppm (Feb 7, 2010)

You were definitely high to write all of that brain ooze. 




ForTheAction said:


> I have a balded tire that I wore out on a chunk of cement when I got stuck in the sand during a bid. Loading that truck up with tons and then going traveling on the free ways when the tire is like that I'm sure is a free ticket to a horror show. In the liklihood that that tire pops on the road, the truck is going to be doing flipping, and the travelers near by will be meeting the doom I have brought their way.
> 
> So what do I do? Grab a new tire.
> 
> ...


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## EdenT (Feb 8, 2010)

:agree2:
Or brain injured. Actually I was able to decipher the last sentence (I think), and he seems to be indicating that alcohol consumption and brain damage are linked. I also believe grammar as bad as his, failure to _sentence a structure_ or argument, and heinously bad spelling may all be linked to brain damage as well. It is therefore my proposition that at some time in his life FTA has been subjected to either a lot of heavy blows to the head, (possible given his winning personality), or lots and lots of really cheap harsh liquor.


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## pdqdl (Feb 8, 2010)

Maybe we should get breathalyzers attached to our computers so that we can get into the newly formed _"no drunks allowed"_ forum at AS?


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## pdqdl (Feb 8, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Cannabis was not made illegal because it is a drug. It was made illegal by two powerful industry lobbies campaigns during / just after World War II. The first of these lobbies was the then brand new nylon industry which wanted the hemp competition for the rope market removed. The second industry was the coal industry...



I don't think so! Please read this somewhat biased but factual account of why & how marajuana became illegal:

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/
(references are cited at the end)

Or this rather unbiased general statement that does not include much historical context or very many facts:
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/drugpolicy/tp/Why-is-Marijuana-Illegal.htm

Here is a pretty good explanation, complete with answers provided from different perspectives: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_marijuana_illegal

I don't doubt that some influence peddlers inspired government to enact this law, or that one. The real fact is that anti-marijuana legislation started LONG before the 1937 tax law, and the most significant anti-pot laws were enacted long after hemp was no longer any economic threat to the nylon, paper, or petrochemical industries. These are the claims forwarded by biased opinions to avoid the real reason that the laws persist: there are social biases against those parts of the population that have historically used pot, there are trends in our society to make illegal anything that has been shown to be a mood altering drug, and there are some genuinely valid reasons why smoking weed are detrimental.

My opinion: legalize it. socially stigmatize smoking it, and quit wasting my tax dollars keeping idiots in jail that smoke or sell it. Let it be a cash crop, and then let it fall out of favor as a recreational drug.


----------



## EdenT (Feb 8, 2010)

I take it you are referring to my statement that dope was not made illegal because it was a drug. Technically yes it was or at least that was the focus of the PR campaign, the real reason IE how it was funded and pushed through was more to do with the industrial interests that stood to benefit. From your own reference - http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_marijuana_illegal


_William Randolph Hearst (Citizen Kane) and the Hearst Paper Manufacturing Division of Kimberly Clark owned vast acreage of timberlands. The Hearst Company supplied most paper products. Patty Hearst's grandfather, a destroyer of nature for his own personal profit, stood to lose billions because of hemp.

In 1937, Dupont patented the processes to make plastics from oil and coal. Dupont's Annual Report urged stockholders to invest in its new petrochemical division. Synthetics such as plastics, cellophane, celluloid, methanol, nylon, rayon, Dacron, etc., could now be made from oil. Natural hemp industrialization would have ruined over 80% of Dupont's business.
_

Of course the time line in my mind is shot to hell - probably all that pot.
I think your final statement is one of the most sensible anti-pot solutions I have heard to date. I could not agree with you more.

Anyhow I don't want to debate pot anymore! I agree with almost everything you have said and I know I will never change your personal beliefs about it or the users of it and you will never change mine.

So you have your and I'll have my :smoking:, and we won't tell each other if we are under the influence when online so no-one can be offended.

PEACE MAN


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## danieltree (Feb 8, 2010)

fishercat said:


> Seems kinda socialist or communist to me.I have more problems with alcohol than weed.I don't care for either but from what I see,weed seems to cause folks a lot less problems.
> 
> I figure let them come to work,if they suck,get rid of them.If they work and leave the crap at home.
> 
> I find that the best screening process is whether they can sharpen a chain.If they can't,I don't think they should be running saws and other dangerous tree equipment. It's really a simple task to learn and it seems that folks who know how to sharpen a chain are a lot less likely to dull one.



Dull chains and brains cost money. I agree 100 percent.​


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 8, 2010)

Toddppm said:


> You were definitely high to write all of that brain ooze.



What do you mean definitely? You don't even know definitely what you meant when you wrote that, ya dunce. Put this together. Guy writes about staying away from the stuff. Guy was on the stuff when he writes it. I'm fairly honest when I say that you are one of the billions of parasite bafoons that have no idea what your words mean when ever you iterate with them. It must feel good for you, eh? I figured that much.


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 8, 2010)

EdenT said:


> :agree2:
> Or brain injured. Actually I was able to decipher the last sentence (I think), and he seems to be indicating that alcohol consumption and brain damage are linked. I also believe grammar as bad as his, failure to _sentence a structure_ or argument, and heinously bad spelling may all be linked to brain damage as well. It is therefore my proposition that at some time in his life FTA has been subjected to either a lot of heavy blows to the head, (possible given his winning personality), or lots and lots of really cheap harsh liquor.



You're full of doo doo. You're the bafoon that kept posting BS about hierogliphics for a week straight. No one came out there and said you were a complete retard though. :deadhorse:


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think so! Please read this somewhat biased but factual account of why & how marajuana became illegal:
> 
> http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/
> (references are cited at the end)
> ...



Legalize it, tax the he ll out of it and pay of the national debt.

Win win


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## tree md (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't really participate in a lot of the political debates around here about legalizing weed because to tell the truth, I could care less. I don't smoke it so I could give two $#!+$ what they do. I participated in this thread because I have seen a problem with it in the workplace. Granted, I have seen a lot of guys who seem to be able to handle it at work but I never considered myself one of those guys so I left it alone on the job. I think anyone with an unbiased view would say that any mind altering substances in the work place is probably not the best idea. Especially when lives and property could be jeopardized

But as far as in society, I have to say that I am tired of seeing my money wasted on locking up people and having to pay for them as well as fund law enforcement for a failed drug war. How many billions of tax dollars have been spent housing end users of drugs and funding the law enforcement for a policy that is clearly not working and never has?

The thugs, dealers and foreign cartels get richer and richer, prison populations swell till they're bursting and law enforcement feeds off of it because of the profit. 

Decriminalize it, take the money out of the hands of the thugs and watch the violence nearly vanish in this country. I'll guarantee you.


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## pdqdl (Feb 9, 2010)

TMD: I wish it weren't so, but what you posted is true.

The real solution for the endemic drug problem is for society to remove the economic incentive for selling it, particularly pushing it to the minors.

1. Legalize. Well...maybe just de-criminalize. Make all that crap available at the pharmacy. [ban ALL forms of advertising, however] Druggies would need to have a prescription that could be ordered for them by a government sponsored program. 

2. Enact monstrous, draconian fines for illegally importing or distributing any contraband. You bring it in illegally, you WILL become poor again.

3. Drug testing in the work place for sensitive jobs, sports, school, etc. I know this isn't very popular, but if the young bucks lost their jobs or couldn't play sports because they failed the piss test, then they wouldn't be very attractive to girls. Loosing all your assets by possessing illegal contraband would make you rather unpopular, too. NOW you got their attention, and the decline in popularity of any drug has begun. Society would exert a powerful incentive to not buy [legally] the things that caused the buyer to become poorer and less popular.

4. Absolutely do NOT tax any of the currently banned drugs. That's all we need: To have our government concealing a vested interest in maintaining our drug dependencies as a revenue stream. It was the government "Revenuers" seeking out unlicensed and un-taxed liquor stills that inspired booze running and possibly the failed attempt at prohibition. [Curiously, it also indirectly lead to NASCAR, the country's most popular sport!]


In the end, the impoverished drug users would get a cheaper safer product that would not require a life of crime to obtain. The outlandish revenue generated from taking the high risk of illegally trading in drugs would be gone. So too, would the allure of living the exciting life of a drug dealer. Society would universally discourage drug dependencies, because there would not be many desirable attributes left to taking the stuff. 

Now back to booze. Does anybody have a great plan for limiting our problems from that stuff? Antabuse in the public water supply?
(http://alcoholism.about.com/od/meds/a/antabuse.htm)


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## EdenT (Feb 9, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> You're full of doo doo. You're the bafoon that kept posting BS about hierogliphics for a week straight. No one came out there and said you were a complete retard though. :deadhorse:



Your intellectual capacity is once again clearly demonstrated. It is _buffoon_ not _bafoon_, _hieroglyphics_ not _hierogliphics_, and you are an idiot with a chainsaw, not an Arborist. While the joke of the palm tree thread clearly exceeded your mental capacity, most of the readers on here actually understood and enjoyed it. Your use of the word 'retard' is offensive (to many people who actually suffer from a mental health condition), unless you use it in a sentence such as - 

'FTA retards the advancement of workplace safety levels in the United States of America'

And yes I am also the _'bafoon'_ who made you look like a complete _'doo doo'_ in your thread about doing dumb things to eucalyptus with a pole-saw. I almost forgot to say, thanks for the rep.  Here's the thread if anyone missed it - Fun with tree's

Go away, or stay and play, but I will make you look very stupid, very often.


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## EdenT (Feb 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> TMD: I wish it weren't so, but what you posted is true.
> 
> The real solution for the endemic drug problem is for society to remove the economic incentive for selling it, particularly pushing it to the minors.
> 
> ...



Hey pdqdl, damn it I'm back. Couldn't resist FTA's inspiring posts. Totally agree with what has been said. I still think selling the stuff should be treated as a capital crime. I think growing some in your backyard for personal use is OK, but the minute you try to sell it, goal. If you sell or push it to a minor then warm up old sparky, time to ride the lightning.

I think you are dead right about government not taxing drugs. Look at the war on tobacco - what a joke. I am not against testing in the workplace, I am against the results being misinterpreted.

Now back to the booze. I was thinking about your problem of having to give people the day off when they come to work under the influence. Rather than giving them the day off, what about making them sit in your yard, without pay until they are capable of passing the breath test. Heck, I reckon if I had to nurse a hangover in a noisy yard, bored out of my brains, and not being paid, I would not be keen to repeat the experience.

The antabuse idea is good, but how many alcoholics do you know that drink water? Oh, and it might kill some people. Oh, and please do not encourage the government to put anything in the water supply. Interesting film on this subject - Serenity. Sort of space adventure but some wicked comments on governmental control of citizens through environmental tampering.


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Your intellectual capacity is once again clearly demonstrated. It is _buffoon_ not _bafoon_, _hieroglyphics_ not _hierogliphics_, and you are an idiot with a chainsaw, not an Arborist. While the joke of the palm tree thread clearly exceeded your mental capacity, most of the readers on here actually understood and enjoyed it. Your use of the word 'retard' is offensive (to many people who actually suffer from a mental health condition), unless you use it in a sentence such as -
> 
> 'FTA retards the advancement of workplace safety levels in the United States of America'
> 
> ...



Maybe you have the trees down because you're something like 20 years older than me and 30 years longer at this kind of work, but you're a phony nag. I know because I outraged you about things like how I did tie a euc tree and how I did mifpell a wittle word. 

You are a ditz. Most of your accusations are exagerations to say the most about them. My respect can't reach you. You're still too high.


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## EdenT (Feb 9, 2010)

:spam::stupid:
I know you're trying to say something. Ummm. CAN YOU SPEAK ENGLISH? Sprechen sie deutsch? Parlez vous francais?

No, you can't outrage me. You are way too pathetic. You irritate me by being disrespectful to many people on this forum who know far more than I probably ever will. I have simply decided to repay all the respect you have shown to my betters.

Anyhow let's quit spoiling this thread. Why don't you start a thread with your latest dastardly deeds and we can get into it there. 
:spam::arg:


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## highpointtree (Feb 9, 2010)

watch out for the typo police..:monkey:


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## tree MDS (Feb 9, 2010)

EdenT said:


> :spam::stupid:
> I know you're trying to say something. Ummm. CAN YOU SPEAK ENGLISH? Sprechen sie deutsch? Parlez vous francais?
> 
> No, you can't outrage me. You are way too pathetic. You irritate me by being disrespectful to many people on this forum who know far more than I probably ever will. I have simply decided to repay all the respect you have shown to my betters.
> ...



LOL!

He sure is a mind numbing read isnt he ... I think "brain ooze" sums it up nicely. Its like someone hit him in the head with an I beam, and whats left up there is dribbling onto his keyboard. lol


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

Eden, you're such a douchebag. Anybody can read what I wrote. Why would changing languages work for me or anyone else? You're like a stupid kid trying to steal cookies at the bakery with the owner standing over you. "He can't zee meee." 

The problem with a lot of you internet butt nuts is that they don't have a fully developed theory of mind. That is when a person can assume what someone can easily assume, so they adjust what is necessary to say accordingly. Kid's before they have it often lie assuming others have no memory or something. Guys like figure everyone is as numb headed as themselves, and they assume that no one can figure them out because they are so groovey or something. Well, you fish are never any different no matter how big of a school you believe you are traveling in. 

I think what the problem, little nag kid, is that you're a pot head, and I hit a chord with that that you didn't like. Why would you start a fight, claim I'm the start of all of the problems, and then ag on the thing? Could it be a lack of sensibility? Aren't you the one that claims you always smoke pot and that you have lost your mind? That is what I've gathered from your admisions so far.

You are like a rabid little house dog with no teeth. Yap, yap, yap, flunky. Bring it on.:bringit: Ouch, you bit me. Oh no, you're just sucking my hand because you don't have what it takes to bite.


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## highpointtree (Feb 9, 2010)

*cabin fever*

LOOKS LIKE THE NATIVES ARE RESTLESS !!


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## ChiHD (Feb 9, 2010)

highpointtree said:


> LOOKS LIKE THE NATIVES ARE RESTLESS !!



yeah we all have too much time on our hands lately!

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treevet (Feb 9, 2010)

are we having fun yet?


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> LOL!
> 
> He sure is a mind numbing read isnt he ... I think "brain ooze" sums it up nicely. Its like someone hit him in the head with an I beam, and whats left up there is dribbling onto his keyboard. lol



You're an alchy. Try laying off the booze for a few years before measuring up to me. What are you afraid of when you are sober? Yourself? I hate these guys like you. All you do is go around starting BS with people that seem too smart for your liking, and then you use your lame antics to try to defame them depending on the ol' infoulable excuse that it was them that started the little face slapping contest. 

You're so dull, you don't even notice you are starting a fight now. Some how you're going to be our hero, right? Run, MDS, ruuuuuun to that little booth at the corner, grab yerself a bottle n a twelver. Then run to the truck, change into them cut off jeans, that red shirt without the sleaves, the stihl that Eden gave ya. Then strap on that red cape erround yer neck, and chug a lug. YeR GOIN' FLYING, BOYA! HEEEEE HAA! "Look out everyone!" "Oooh, awe" "It's a groundie" It's a squirrel." "Ah heck, it's just MDS's loud mouth again.

If you like it MDS, feed me back some more of those bad brains. I seriously doubt you'll find any better contention than what I can deal you. If you could remember what sobriety was like, you might remember how fun I am not and drop it.


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

*AS Events Scheduled for Today:

Ping Pong - open tournament*
(Eye protection recommended)


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## Tree Pig (Feb 9, 2010)

highpointtree said:


> watch out for the typo police..:monkey:



Well in his defense it really does take an idiot to misspell a word on a forum when the forum has a spell checker built in. That means you have to f-it up so bad the spell checker doesn't recognize it.

and FTA proved himself an idiot long ago.


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## tree MDS (Feb 9, 2010)

FTA, why dont you find a sports forum and go talk about jock straps or something. It should be aparent to you by now that nobody here wants to hear your drivel.


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## EdenT (Feb 9, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> Eden, you're such a douchebag. Anybody can read what I wrote. Why would changing languages work for me or anyone else? You're like a stupid kid trying to steal cookies at the bakery with the owner standing over you. "He can't zee meee."
> 
> The problem with a lot of you internet butt nuts is that they don't have a fully developed theory of mind. That is when a person can assume what someone can easily assume, so they adjust what is necessary to say accordingly. Kid's before they have it often lie assuming others have no memory or something. Guys like figure everyone is as numb headed as themselves, and they assume that no one can figure them out because they are so groovey or something. Well, you fish are never any different no matter how big of a school you believe you are traveling in.



Let us deconstruct the babble -

Eden, you're such a douchebag. Would you even know what a ********** is? (quick type it into google)

Anybody can read what I wrote. No, actually quite often people have little notes after your posts asking if anyone has a clue what your going on about. Just in this thread two separate people have described your writings as brain ooze - I only disagree with them about the brain part.

Why would changing languages work for me or anyone else? Because you obviously have a limited grasp of English which I could tolerate if you had anything of merit to say!

You're like a stupid kid trying to steal cookies at the bakery with the owner standing over you. "He can't zee meee." WTF has that got to do with anything?

The problem with a lot of you internet butt nuts is that they don't have a fully developed theory of mind. I think you're putting De(s)cart(e) before de horse. Oh never mind you will never get that! Needless to say, you need a mind in order to develop a theory of one.

That is when a person can assume what someone can easily assume, so they adjust what is necessary to say accordingly. Actually it is not. Over simplified, it is the ability to empathize or post modernize in order to see the world from another persons perspective.

Kid's before they have it often lie assuming others have no memory or something. I repeat. WTF has this got to do with anything?

Guys like figure everyone is as numb headed as themselves, and they assume that no one can figure them out because they are so groovey or something. Wow, profound! You start on babbling about Theory of Mind like you understand it and in the same paragraph claim that people under a certain age or of a certain gender don't have it. Did you read that somewhere?

Well, you fish are never any different no matter how big of a school you believe you are traveling in. Actually I am. I was lost at birth and bought up by wild dogs in the jungle. But what would you know ooze pump.

Your last two paragraphs aren't even worth getting into. FYI I am more concerned about what pdqdl thinks of me WRT pot smoking. The difference between him and you is that I have respect for him and so his opinion matters to me.

P.S. I asked you nicely to stop trashing this thread! Oh I see some of your other fans have been updating the thread as well.


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Let us deconstruct the babble -
> 
> Eden, you're such a douchebag. Would you even know what a ********** is? (quick type it into google)
> 
> ...



In the words of Eden: "I came up wiff all of that? Woooe."





BTW, I stopped reading at the mark of the word deconstruct. If that's all you have for me, you're nothing but pot smoking, flunky, goosh brain trash. Get a life besides spending as much time "deconstructing" for me.

Yours truly,
FTA


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## treeslayer (Feb 9, 2010)

opcorn:opcorn:

Somehow that guy JeffLovstrom is involved. Sandiego climbers. 

except jomoco, he ain't right in the head, I like him.


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## EdenT (Feb 9, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> In the words of Eden: "I came up wiff all of that? Woooe."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry I will use smaller words in future.:monkey:


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> FTA, why dont you find a sports forum and go talk about jock straps or something. It should be aparent to you by now that nobody here wants to hear your drivel.



That's a redundant question, doofus, and what is apparent is that "nobody" himself is still looking for a fight that being you. Why don't youuu slam another shot, and head off to work? (MDS: "Hmmmm, why not?") I'm headed that way now.

On a side note I don't know HTH some of you guys can keep posting from in the trees at work. Either way, I like these little pet forum junkies like you MDS. Certainly if there is nothing objective to post about, then there is something looney to do with bar fly brains like yours. 

I should say you definitely are the hero here. You start fights, and then you use your big shoulders to be the first to speak for everyone by saying I'm a problem here. If I'm a problem, define the objective here to which I'm the problem for. As in what objective here at AS am I'm impeding? I'm sure if you'd just lay off, go run that chainsaw through your hands, it will all come clear up to the point you douche your brains out with that liquid plumber BS that keeps finding something wrong with my posts. You're not alone, MDS. AA (not AS) is full of youze. 

One more thing, who is doing the talking? You or Jonnie Walker? I have an idea you wouldn't be so high and mighty with out your local liquor store cape. I'm certain the jerky personality would drizzle away, but then you'd be lost because you'd have to figure out how to handle things without the alchyhol.





Come again,
FTA


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Sorry I will use smaller words in future.:monkey:



For what? So you can empress yourself? Screw you.


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 9, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> opcorn:opcorn:
> 
> Somehow that guy JeffLovstrom is involved. Sandiego climbers.
> 
> except jomoco, he ain't right in the head, I like him.



Somehow, huh? Who's chimp are you today?


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## treeslayer (Feb 9, 2010)

That is a joke directed at a couple friends in SD.

I'm a chimp??? whatever. 

I read what you wrote on the what to do thread, was pretty good. 
having fun over here?


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## tree MDS (Feb 9, 2010)

Well it looks like I'll have to put down this darn 12 pack ... I think a nine thousand dollar job just came in.

Cheers FTA!


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## treeslayer (Feb 9, 2010)

time to derail............

, getting ready for the storm?
I'm setting up for Northern Virginia, they get the wind tomorrow, after another 1' - 2' snow?

YEE HAW!!


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## treeslayer (Feb 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Well it looks like I'll have to put down this darn 12 pack ... I think a nine thousand dollar job just came in.
> 
> Cheers FTA!



so what will you do tomorrow?


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## tree MDS (Feb 9, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> so what will you do tomorrow?



Probably clean up the foot of snow we'll be getting.


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## Tree Pig (Feb 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Probably clean up the foot of snow we'll be getting.



No worries I bet it will be an Irish snow storm anyways.


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## tree md (Feb 9, 2010)

This has turned into a highly entertaining thread...


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## Rftreeman (Feb 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> This has turned into a highly entertaining thread...


as they all do..........


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## treeslayer (Feb 9, 2010)

Same song every winter,


if we only had a job.........................


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## tree md (Feb 9, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> Same song every winter,
> 
> 
> if we only had a job.........................



To tell the truth, it's kind of comforting knowing that I am not the only one who is slow right now.


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## Blakesmaster (Feb 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> To tell the truth, it's kind of comforting knowing that I am not the only one who is slow right now.



Group hug? lol


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## tree MDS (Feb 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> To tell the truth, it's kind of comforting knowing that I am not the only one who is slow right now.



Its always been dead for me in the winter (part of it could be because I hate the cold so much), over time I've learned to not even bother looking for work. If something comes in fine, but other than that - screw it! 

Sitting around draining the bank account (and the twelve packs, lol) does suck though. 

I've got plenty of projects going on, but nothing beats cutting trees. I find it hard to motivate for much else really.


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## tree md (Feb 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Its always been dead for me in the winter (part of it could be because I hate the cold so much), over time I've learned to not even bother looking for work. If something comes in fine, but other than that - screw it!
> 
> Sitting around draining the bank account (and the twelve packs, lol) does suck though.
> 
> I've got plenty of projects going on, but nothing beats cutting trees. I find it hard to motivate for much else really.



Yeah, I don't mind the time off either. Gives me lots of time to hunt which is my passion.

However, I do look for it to pick up in Feb. though. Had one come in this time last year for $5400. Another one of those would set me right about now.


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## Rftreeman (Feb 9, 2010)

I hate slow times, my wife feels like I should do house work...........


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## tree MDS (Feb 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> Yeah, I don't mind the time off either. Gives me lots of time to hunt which is my passion.
> 
> However, I do look for it to pick up in Feb. though. Had one come in this time last year for $5400. Another one of those would set me right about now.



We had a pretty good ice storm last winter that helped. That was around 5k worth of work I think. I also sold my old chipper for 8500, that probably saved me. The money does go quick when you aint workin though.

I do get sick of things being so tight (on account of payments) in the winter though. On the other hand it sure is nice to have a yard full of equipment when it comes time to whip up the trees full time again.


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## treevet (Feb 9, 2010)

Last winter we were pretty booked straight thru. Leftover from hurricane. False sense of security. NOBODY is working around here and we just got capped with a foot of snow. Can't wait to get my toys out and play with them.

Oh well, Andy Griffith is on now, something important to do, see ya in a half hour.


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## tree md (Feb 9, 2010)

treevet said:


> Last winter we were pretty booked straight thru. Leftover from hurricane. False sense of security. NOBODY is working around here and we just got capped with a foot of snow. Can't wait to get my toys out and play with them.
> 
> Oh well, Andy Griffith is on now, something important to do, see ya in a half hour.



Seems like anytime there is a major storm the next year is a bust. I guess everyone who needs work done gets it done right after the storm. At least that has been my experience. We were bust for about a year after our ice storm in 07 then it picked up a little last year. A lot more people doing preventative maintenance as well as some insurance companies requiring potentially hazardous limbs to be removed. I did one in Dec. that was required by the insurance company for policy renewal.


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## treevet (Feb 9, 2010)

scavenger hacks come in and clean your town out of tree money too. Drops the price of tree work substantially too. It was good at the time, but in the long run....?


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## pdqdl (Feb 9, 2010)

Geez! I turn my back on this thread for just one morning and you guys go tearing it up (along with each other). I hate to admit it, but I feel a small sense of pride that my little "drunk detector" thread has turned into one of the hottest flame throwing matches I have seen for some time. 

It was great reading, and I really like it when you guys spank the children that way. More abuse please!

Now if I may exert a little steering...

*For the clever fellows with the rapier wit:* Try not to be so clever that the victim of your scathing retorts misses the point. Even though the rest of us will enjoy it immensely, we really like to see those comments score direct hits that scar the psyche of the recipient. 

*For the hotheads that just like to throw insults:* This isn't the 7th grade. We could all listen to our children call each other names if we wanted. Most of are reading this drivel so that we can either learn something, or be entertained. Try to do both by coming up with more innovative insults. The more colorful and clearly understood, the better. If you could try harder to understand your opponents, you might be more able to hit them where they feel your insults, rather than throwing them wide of the mark.


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## banshee67 (Feb 9, 2010)

DONT MAKE ME TURN THIS CAR AROUND!
ill come back there and spank your little booty!
play nice!


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> opcorn:opcorn:
> 
> Somehow that guy JeffLovstrom is involved. Sandiego climbers.
> 
> except jomoco, he ain't right in the head, I like him.



 LOL-Right? I am only involved in tree work, you know that, Dave.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2010)

:


treeslayer said:


> That is a joke directed at a couple friends in SD.
> 
> I'm a chimp??? whatever.
> 
> ...



Oh, 
Jeff, not reading all the wat thru before posting-


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## Wishie22 (Feb 9, 2010)

EdenT said:


> The antabuse idea is good, but how many alcoholics do you know that drink public water? Oh, and it might kill some people. Oh, and please do not encourage the government to put anything in the public water supply. Interesting film on this subject - Serenity. Sort of space adventure but some wicked comments on governmental control of citizens through environmental tampering.



Ever wonder what extra fluoride does to living organisms.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Hey pdqdl, damn it I'm back. Couldn't resist FTA's inspiring posts. Totally agree with what has been said. I still think selling the stuff should be treated as a capital crime. I think growing some in your backyard for personal use is OK, but the minute you try to sell it, goal. If you sell or push it to a minor then warm up old sparky, time to ride the lightning.
> 
> I think you are dead right about government not taxing drugs. Look at the war on tobacco - what a joke. I am not against testing in the workplace, I am against the results being misinterpreted.
> 
> ...



I hear what Eden is saying and what pdqdl is saying. I think pdqdl was not serious but was taking it that far, joking? Eden, If I got a guy with a hang-over come to work, I suspect he is some what drunk or has a hang-over, he will not be driving out of our yard. He will go to the job with the guys and sit in the truck and wait until I can come by the job-site to take him home. My yard is quiet in the day and he would love it. No, I would bust his ass on tough brush dragging. I get calls several times a day from guys looking for work. I take their app. Not getting a device to fire my guys- I will do it myself. Works too, Last time I fired a guy was over 4 years ago, I currently have 12; 8 climbers and 4 groundies. We have a great relationship as they know I climbed for 26 years and they cant BS me.
Jeff


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## EdenT (Feb 10, 2010)

Wishie22 said:


> Ever wonder what extra fluoride does to living organisms.



No, but if your avatar is actually a picture of you then I'm drinking nothing but scotch from now on! 

Actually I am aware that fluoride is amongst the most reactive chemicals going. If you have more information I am sure some of us would love to read what you have to say.


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## EdenT (Feb 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I hear what Eden is saying and what pdqdl is saying. I think pdqdl was not serious but was taking it that far, joking? Eden, If I got a guy with a hang-over come to work, I suspect he is some what drunk or has a hang-over, he will not be driving out of our yard. He will go to the job with the guys and sit in the truck and wait until I can come by the job-site to take him home. My yard is quiet in the day and he would love it. No, I would bust his ass on tough brush dragging. I get calls several times a day from guys looking for work. I take their app. Not getting a device to fire my guys- I will do it myself. Works too, Last time I fired a guy was over 4 years ago, I currently have 12; 8 climbers and 4 groundies. We have a great relationship as they know I climbed for 26 years and they cant BS me.
> Jeff



Yeah Jeff, I can see where your coming from, but you have to understand. If that guy injures himself (or herself), then they will not get insurance coverage and you will find yourself in a lot of hot water with OSHA and possibly even the state prosecutor.

How come you have 2:1 climbers to groundies? I would have thought the other way would be a more efficient mix unless your climbers are also expected to do ground duties (which is a good thing provided they are not too stuffed from climbing). A bad answer would be that the climbers are really, really, really slow!


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## treevet (Feb 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> take him home. My yard is quiet in the day and he would love it. No, I would bust his ass on tough brush dragging.



Maybe 40 years ago my climber called me in the early morning and said he was "hungover". I said come in and drag brush and keep your hands off the saws.

We started work and I went out to get gas. I get a call from the gm and he says the climber is on his way to the hospital with a cut from the 041 in the face. I get there and his head is taped up like the invisible man. I am sitting behind the door when his sister comes in and says "I can't believe you worked today I am still f'd up from (acid) we dropped and it is noon now". She didn't know I was sitting behind the door.

He had about a hundred stitches in his face and cut his eye lid in half and could see out of his eye with his eye closed and it didn't hit is eyeball.

Hungover with drugs or alcohol is just usually a lesser state of intoxicated to an addict.

Oh, and anybody ever met an "occasional user" of pot? I haven't and I am way older than most of you all and I have been around stoners my whole life until I sobered up 20 years ago. Somebody offers to light up a dube and everyone's in no matter what the plan for abstinence was for that day.


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## treevet (Feb 10, 2010)

EdenT said:


> How come you have 2:1 climbers to groundies? I would have thought the other
> 
> A bad answer would be that the climbers are really, really, really slow!



good question


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## ropensaddle (Feb 10, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I wasn't sure which area to post this, so I stuck it here.
> 
> I have problems with alcoholics & drug heads working for me. I have at least solved the drunk problem with this jewel:
> 
> ...



Pd You cwack me up you must attract some doozies up there. Of course I have to do my own work or would end up with cool stories like you have cause we got em too lol


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2010)

treevet said:


> good question



Yeah, I ended up climber heavy when a couple groundies left and hopefully I will get a couple in the next few weeks. Lucky the climbers dont mind picking up the slack for now.
Jeff


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## treevet (Feb 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Yeah, I ended up climber heavy when a couple groundies left and hopefully I will get a couple in the next few weeks. Lucky the climbers dont mind picking up the slack for now.
> Jeff



Do you have your own business Jeff, or do you run a yard or foreman for someone?


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## Taxmantoo (Feb 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Yeah, I ended up climber heavy when a couple groundies left and hopefully I will get a couple in the next few weeks. Lucky the climbers dont mind picking up the slack for now.
> Jeff



It's nice when your employees don't mind being employed, isn't it?
I guess that's one benefit to a recession.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2010)

treevet said:


> Do you have your own business Jeff, or do you run a yard or foreman for someone?



I am operations manager of of Urban Tree Care, we are mid-size and cover all of so-cal.
Jeff


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## mowoodchopper (Feb 10, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> I am zero tolerance with my crew out of personal choice. The fact that it is an OHS requirement is just extra ammo. I take safety very seriously and have spent thousands of dollars making my guys as safe as they can be in this hazardous industry. If any of them are stupid enough to turn up drunk or stoned they catch a cab home. If I ever caught anyone drinking or lighting up (never have) they would need an ambulance home. No way is anyone going to put me, my boys, my clients or the general public in danger.
> 
> Rant over.



100% agreed , Dopeheads and drunks are worthless on the job. If someone has a ocasional drink or two on the weekend thats fine. As far as pot smokers I dont know any who do it only ocassionaly so I guess Id say no!
I have worked with some and they were lazy a heck if they were smoking.I guess if someone does it at home and is sober at work , I can see it could not affect their work but with all the test they do at the er or in a wreck, company truck, its not worth it, if they want a job they can clean up!


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## treevet (Feb 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am operations manager of of Urban Tree Care, we are mid-size and cover all of so-cal.
> Jeff



You are basically foreman for 12 employees? Is that considered a mid sized company?


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 10, 2010)

treevet said:


> You are basically foreman for 12 employees? Is that considered a mid sized company?



I run the San Diego region, we have more than one branch.
Jeff


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## treevet (Feb 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I run the San Diego region, we have more than one branch.
> Jeff



nice web site....http://www.urbantreecare.com/rick.html


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## Wishie22 (Feb 10, 2010)

EdenT said:


> No, but if your avatar is actually a picture of you then I'm drinking nothing but scotch from now on!
> 
> Actually I am aware that fluoride is amongst the most reactive chemicals going. If you have more information I am sure some of us would love to read what you have to say.



Do a quick search on "uses for fluoride". Check into the history of fluoride, other uses of fluoride. Industrial byproduct used in many toxic poison products, etc.

You may want to have scotch that is from a natural water source with out any additives. You may look at public water a little different, along with the cast-iron piping with great solder holding them together. Allot of bottled water is just filtered public water (watch for misleading advertisements).

Just another reason we moved and now have well water. Give our kids a better chance than we had. Pisses me off that they recommend a fluoride pill to children with out giving all the facts of fluoride first to parents. 

Friend was prescribed fluoride tabs for his children (well water household), son developed migraines and behaved out of sorts. Did some research, stopped consumption of the fluoride supplements. Health and behavior improved.


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## B-Edwards (Feb 10, 2010)

I have to ask if the company's workmans comp paid for it? The cut to his head?


treevet said:


> Maybe 40 years ago my climber called me in the early morning and said he was "hungover". I said come in and drag brush and keep your hands off the saws.
> 
> We started work and I went out to get gas. I get a call from the gm and he says the climber is on his way to the hospital with a cut from the 041 in the face. I get there and his head is taped up like the invisible man. I am sitting behind the door when his sister comes in and says "I can't believe you worked today I am still f'd up from (acid) we dropped and it is noon now". She didn't know I was sitting behind the door.
> 
> ...


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## B-Edwards (Feb 10, 2010)

pdqdl , I went through the same thing. Sure paying more might get you better help but if your in an area as I am you wont make it long paying 25 bucks an hour. Really good help is hard to find nowdays. Climbers around my area are near worthless dope heads and most of the ones who arent are way too lazy to work WITH me. Ive hired plenty, they know how to do anything until its time to put-up . Clowns think because they climbed a tree as a kid they can do it. Well maybe they can but its gona take years of training. Its hard , you need team players and the crews who have them know how lucky they are. We hired a girl a couple of weeks ago to be our office person . Interviewed her pretty good asking what we thought were all the right questions. She led us to believe she had the experience we needed. Tried talking to her about what she was doing wrong and she keeps interupting. Even as she picked up here things she was still doing it.
Some clown calls this evening and asked " You the guy I talked to about work?" Come-on clowns if you need a job an introduction helps a little. A hello maybe? As I have said in the past, some are getting ready to be paid what they are worth instead of what they think they're worth. Work is slowing down here , builders are scared silly . Some fat will be trimmed. Good luck pdqdl , tickled pink I aint facing this problem anymore.


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## treevet (Feb 10, 2010)

B-Edwards said:


> I have to ask if the company's workmans comp paid for it? The cut to his head?



Yes it paid for everything. Doubtful he was tested for drugs. Happened about 1973. Would have paid for plastic surgery as a follow up but he liked the scar and decided to pass on it. He was a great kid, worked for me for years after that and we were personal friends. He just made a bad choice that night into the next day and paid for it.

I post these kind of things that they might benefit others.


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## BarkBuster20 (Apr 28, 2010)

I dont think working on pot is dangerous, at least not for some people. I have worked a lot of jobs stoned to the bone, gettin stuff done, safely at that. I will thin over an acre with just a saw in about 6 hours, this includes felling limbing and bucking (usually into firewood). That being said I Prefer to work sober because at the end of the day i will be completely drained if i was smoking.

Another thing to consider though, All the times i have been stoned while working, i was working for myself. If i was working for somone else who had a no tolerence policy, i wouldnt even think about smoking on the job, or before work. If i got popped with a UA...well thats why i dont have those types of jobs, i dont like to be on another mans leash.


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## beowulf343 (Apr 28, 2010)

You're a ####ing idiot and I can't believe this is the kind of advice being given out on the commercial thread.


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

Thanks for the support, beowulf343. The ignorant jerk BarkBuster20 negative repped me for this thread, too. Let's not worry about negative repping him into oblivion. He has to live with himself, that's probably punishment enough.

Barkbuster: just keep on stoning your life away. I suspect that you need to be stoned so that you need not confront the grim reality you have turned your life into. It works that way with drunks, too. I suspect you like to mix your booze with your drugs for maximum effect too, eh?


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## BarkBuster20 (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Thanks for the support, beowulf343. The ignorant jerk BarkBuster20 negative repped me for this thread, too. Let's not worry about negative repping him into oblivion. He has to live with himself, that's probably punishment enough.
> 
> Barkbuster: just keep on stoning your life away. I suspect that you need to be stoned so that you need not confront the grim reality you have turned your life into. It works that way with drunks, too. I suspect you like to mix your booze with your drugs for maximum effect too, eh?



give me all the negative rep you think i deserve. I negative repped you for the ignorant blanket statements you made about marijuana. I can run a saw very proficiently while stoned, trust me i have spent thousands of hours doing so. I have never had a saw or work related accident, i have also never wore chaps. Does this mean i am promoting unsafe working conduct because i dont wear protective gear? (aside from safety glasses, ear plugs, and hard hat) 

I am perfectly happy with my life, things are going well for me i have a great girlfriend of 2 years, i cut firewood and thin trees for a main source of income, i dont drink or use any drugs aside from "pot". Oh and i got some great saws too, and a lot of other toys.


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 28, 2010)

Oh Boy!, A thread livensd up!
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> give me all the negative rep you think i deserve. I negative repped you for the ignorant blanket statements you made about marijuana. I can run a saw very proficiently while stoned, trust me i have spent thousands of hours doing so. I have never had a saw or work related accident, i have also never wore chaps. Does this mean i am promoting unsafe working conduct because i dont wear protective gear? (aside from safety glasses, ear plugs, and hard hat)
> 
> I am perfectly happy with my life, things are going well for me i have a great girlfriend of 2 years, i cut firewood and thin trees for a main source of income, i dont drink or use any drugs aside from "pot". Oh and i got some great saws too, and a lot of other toys.



Good post , and well deserving of some green rep


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> give me all the negative rep you think i deserve. I negative repped you for the ignorant blanket statements you made about marijuana. I can run a saw very proficiently while stoned, trust me i have spent thousands of hours doing so. I have never had a saw or work related accident, i have also never wore chaps. Does this mean i am promoting unsafe working conduct because i dont wear protective gear? (aside from safety glasses, ear plugs, and hard hat)
> 
> I am perfectly happy with my life, things are going well for me i have a great girlfriend of 2 years, i cut firewood and thin trees for a main source of income, i dont drink or use any drugs aside from "pot". Oh and i got some great saws too, and a lot of other toys.




Negative rep is pointless. Never done it, don't plan on it just for you, either.

If I disapprove of your comments, I will tell you in an open forum that lets everybody see what I have to say. I don't go sneaking in, interjecting discord and insult where no one else can see it. I consider that to be cowardly. I see from the personal messages on your public profile that you are in the habit of red-repping folks. Try to remember that you will reap what you sow.

If you want to defend your actions, take the time to quote my "ignorant blanket statements" and point out my errors. Then I will methodically rip your ill-informed and biased comments to shreds. Until that happens, your comments are like passing gas in a public area. They smell for a while, but they don't have any lasting effect.



Got a girl friend for a whole two years, eh? That's not setting any records, but I wish you well. If she is worth keeping, marry her. If not, you are wasting her time, as well as your own.

I don't keep score on who has the most toys. I'll never have all that I want, and what you have does not make me discontent with what toys I have.

_"These are the four that are never content: that have never been filled since the dew began-
Jacala's mouth, and the glut of the kite, and the hands of the ape, and the eyes of Man."
_— Rudyard Kipling (The Jungle Books)


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Oh Boy!, A thread livensd up!
> Jeff



Actually, I'm kind of glad to wake this thread up. I don't think most of the drunks and stoners of this world will ever see the light, but maybe this thread will let them know how things are for the clear thinkers around them.


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Actually, I'm kind of glad to wake this thread up. I don't think most of the drunks and stoners of this world will ever see the light, but maybe this thread will let them know how things are for the clear thinkers around them.



I hear ya, pdqdl! 
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> give me all the negative rep you think i deserve. I negative repped you for the ignorant blanket statements you made about marijuana. I can run a saw very proficiently while stoned, trust me i have spent thousands of hours doing so. I have never had a saw or work related accident, i have also never wore chaps. Does this mean i am promoting unsafe working conduct because i dont wear protective gear? (aside from safety glasses, ear plugs, and hard hat)
> 
> I am perfectly happy with my life, things are going well for me i have a great girlfriend of 2 years, i cut firewood and thin trees for a main source of income, i dont drink or use any drugs aside from "pot". Oh and i got some great saws too, and a lot of other toys.



Yeah and methheads can work circles around you too lmfao:monkey: Any mind altering chemical and a chainsaw is a recipe for disaster and the most dangerous part is the user don't believe so:bringit:


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

This the post I made that inflamed BarkBuster into a red-repping frenzy:



pdqdl said:


> Excuses, excuses.
> 
> I know a fair number of folks that have quit smoking both pot and cigarettes. Not one of them has ever said they regretted the choice.
> 
> ...



He commented: "Oh boy, another stupid comment about pot." 

Read it again, BB20. This time, try to see something good in it, instead of just a criticism of your lifestyle.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 28, 2010)

Nothing says entertainment like hanging at a party of sober people , or is drinking and smoking pot OK when work is done?


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## BarkBuster20 (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Negative rep is pointless. Never done it, don't plan on it just for you, either.
> 
> If I disapprove of your comments, I will tell you in an open forum that lets everybody see what I have to say. I don't go sneaking in, interjecting discord and insult where no one else can see it. I consider that to be cowardly. I see from the personal messages on your public profile that you are in the habit of red-repping folks. Try to remember that you will reap what you sow.
> 
> ...




The thing is i read this thread, i see how you and a few others have responded to marijuana ( i agree with you as far as the harder drugs go, and ESPECIALLY alcohol) users on this thread, so i was well aware of how you would react. The point im trying to make is i was and am not trying to defend my actions, i am simply not ashamed of my actions. 

I was not bragging about how many "toys" i had i was merely stating that i had toys, i had a nice girlfriend, and i did work that i enjoy and i work for myself. I said this in response to this statement you directed towards me.. 

"Barkbuster: just keep on stoning your life away. I suspect that you need to be stoned so that you need not confront the grim reality you have turned your life into. It works that way with drunks, too. I suspect you like to mix your booze with your drugs for maximum effect too, eh?"

You seem a little un balanced... the comments you made above are quite disturbing, and they are the reason i shared information about my private life, in order to let you know i live a normal life, and i do not face a reality any more grim than anyone else, you seem bitter.


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

The people I like to hang out with are ALWAYS entertaining. They need to be charming, personable, concerned for the people around them, or I don't want to be there. They drink, or don't drink, it doesn't change their behavior or who they are. I don't hang out with stoners, as I have never met any that were charming, personable, and concerned for the people around them. I suppose they exist somewhere, but they haven't crossed my path.

Excessive consumption is the problem. If there is no balance, you just fall down. Literally or figuratively, the result is still about the same.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> The people I like to hang out with are ALWAYS entertaining. They need to be charming, personable, concerned for the people around them, or I don't want to be there. They drink, or don't drink, it doesn't change their behavior or who they are. I don't hang out with stoners, as I have never met any that were charming, personable, and concerned for the people around them. I suppose they exist somewhere, but they haven't crossed my path.
> 
> Excessive consumption is the problem. If there is no balance, you just fall down. Literally or figuratively, the result is still about the same.



Are you sure you don't hang with stoners how would you know , red eyes slured speech or the "munchies"


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## BarkBuster20 (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> The people I like to hang out with are ALWAYS entertaining. They need to be charming, personable, concerned for the people around them, or I don't want to be there. They drink, or don't drink, it doesn't change their behavior or who they are. I don't hang out with stoners, as I have never met any that were charming, personable, and concerned for the people around them. I suppose they exist somewhere, but they haven't crossed my path.
> 
> Excessive consumption is the problem. If there is no balance, you just fall down. Literally or figuratively, the result is still about the same.



Oh your friends drink or they dont drink, but either way it doesnt change there behavior? Are you kidding me? alcohol changes a persons behavior more than ANY other drug. I have never noticed much of a behavior change in a stoned person, aside from them being more calm and easy going. 

Your observasions seem way out of wack with mine, it is my belief that your reality is distorted, or your simply arrogent enough to believe whatevers clever in your "charming" head. 

About excessive consumption, i would much rather be around a person who over consumes pot than alcohol.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Are you sure you don't hang with stoners how would you know , red eyes slured speech or the "munchies"



I can spot a pot head easy, paranoia, indecisive on rather simple tasks,forgetfulness etc. Then dumb stuff happens like tractors going off trailers, chippers coming loose from trucks etc. I have had to supervise them twenty years and it is always the same, they have excuses that cover everything but the fact they have burnt their brain up with pot.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> About excessive consumption, i would much rather be around a person who over consumes pot than alcohol.



I will agree with that but that is as far as I will go.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I can spot a pot head easy, paranoia, indecisive on rather simple tasks,forgetfulness etc. Then dumb stuff happens like tractors going off trailers, chippers coming loose from trucks etc. I have had to supervise them twenty years and it is always the same, they have excuses that cover everything but the fact they have burnt their brain up with pot.



I am talking about everyday life , meaning the guy at the gas station , or the sev, or even the guy working at the parts counter , do you men for me to believe that you can identify each and every one


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I am talking about everyday life , meaning the guy at the gas station , or the sev, or even the guy working at the parts counter , do you men for me to believe that you can identify each and every one



In five to ten minutes yup I will spot it.


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## BarkBuster20 (Apr 28, 2010)

Rope you could work with me all day and never have a clue i was a pot head, i know you wont believe me, but if the oppurtunity ever presents itself i would be more than happy to give you a free days worth of work (and i wont show up stoned) to prove to you. I really do have a solid work ethic, i take safety precautions and i work efficiently.


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> ... The point im trying to make is i was and am not trying to defend my actions, i am simply not ashamed of my actions.



Huh? Until you woke up this two month old thread, nobody was reading it any more. Until you jumped into the middle of this, no one knew what your actions were, nor were they criticising you. Not ashamed? I guess not! I think you are proud of being a stoner.



BarkBuster20 said:


> I was not bragging about how many "toys" i had i was merely stating that i had toys, i had a nice girlfriend, and i did work that i enjoy and i work for myself. I said this in response to this statement you directed towards me..



BS! I never directed a statement at you. You have not posted in this thread prior to today. If you feel "hit" by my comments, it can only be because the truth hurts, and you can see yourself in my depictions of the sorry lives of some of the stoners I have known. 




BarkBuster20 said:


> You seem a little un balanced... the comments you made above are quite disturbing, and they are the reason i shared information about my private life, in order to let you know i live a normal life, and i do not face a reality any more grim than anyone else, you seem bitter.



If my comments are quite disturbing to you, you should consider avoiding them by not provoking me. I'm glad that you live a normal life, and I really don't wish for anyone to have a life filled with "grim reality". My extensive experience with people that choose to stupify their brains has forced me to realize that drug & alcohol abuse=long term unhappiness.

Yes. I guess I am bitter about some things. I am angry and pissed off that there are so many people in this world doing so many stupid things to ruin their lives and the lives of the people around them. Comes along some prideful fellow who figures that his sense of self-worth has been punctured by my two month old observations about human behavior, and he pokes me in the back with a verbal stick. My response is pretty normal, too, don't you think?

Drugs & booze are just the beginning, don't get me started on crime, greed, or other varieties of selfish behavior. The very worst is prideful selfishness, which leads to most all of the other problems in life. 

Tell me you weren't thinking of yourself and your injured pride when you started this little pissing match?


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> Rope you could work with me all day and never have a clue i was a pot head, i know you wont believe me, but if the oppurtunity ever presents itself i would be more than happy to give you a free days worth of work (and i wont show up stoned) to prove to you. I really do have a solid work ethic, i take safety precautions and i work efficiently.



I may have a tougher time seeing it in some people but it always shows up  I call them hiding hippies but even persons that have built up tolerance do things after a while that lets you know they smoke.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I may have a tougher time seeing it in some people but it always shows up  I call them hiding hippies but even persons that have built up tolerance do things after a while that lets you know they smoke.



I think you would have trouble with me too .. Even though I don't ever smoke pot at work , on my own free time you would not be able to tell me when I was stoned , drunk absolutely but "pot" not a chance .....


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> Oh your friends drink or they dont drink, but either way it doesnt change there behavior? Are you kidding me? ...



No. My friends don't get drunk. If we drink, it is because we are thirsty and feel like consuming whatever beverage we are drinking. If alcohol becomes important to our festivities, then it would spoil everything, both for them and for me. If their conduct were to become influenced by their drinking, I would not choose to be part of the group. I have no doubt that they are of a similar frame of mind.

I have a saying posted on the walls of my office. I wrote it about 15 years ago, so it won't appear in any other "famous quotations" I doubt that you will understand it, but give it a try:

Control your circumstances! DL

I will like people because of their intentions, not their actions.
I will judge them by their actions ONLY, and not at all by their words.
I will prefer to associate with people I admire, not just accept.
I will choose my friends from those that like me for what I am,
not for what I can do for them.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I think you would have trouble with me too .. Even though I don't ever smoke pot at work , on my own free time you would not be able to tell me when I was stoned , drunk absolutely but "pot" not a chance .....



I may not be able to tell when you smoked but I would know you have. I learned to spot it at my last job.


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I think you would have trouble with me too .. Even though I don't ever smoke pot at work , on my own free time you would not be able to tell me when I was stoned , drunk absolutely but "pot" not a chance .....



If you are stoned, I'll figure it out every time. It is essential to know the person pretty well before that is consistently possible.

Let's face it. You smoke pot to enjoy the effect that it has on you, right? I have never heard of any pot heads going down to the local dealer and asking for some more of "that bud with the delicate aroma" You don't smoke the stuff because of some special satisfaction you might have with the consumption of a premium product, you smoke it to get stoned. 

You smoke it because it bombs your brain and makes you happy. To a non-stoner experienced at being around pot-heads, this becomes a pretty easy to spot emotional condition. Ever watch Cheech & Chong? Their performance was a greatly exaggerated parody of stoners, but they still got it right. Probably from experience.


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## BarkBuster20 (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> If you are stoned, I'll figure it out every time. It is essential to know the person pretty well before that is consistently possible.
> 
> Let's face it. You smoke pot to enjoy the effect that it has on you, right? I have never heard of any pot heads going down to the local dealer and asking for some more of "that bud with the delicate aroma" You don't smoke the stuff because of some special satisfaction you might have with the consumption of a premium product, you smoke it to get stoned.
> 
> You smoke it because it bombs your brain and makes you happy. To a non-stoner experienced at being around pot-heads, this becomes a pretty easy to spot emotional condition. Ever watch Cheech & Chong? Their performance was a greatly exaggerated parody of stoners, but they still got it right. Probably from experience.



The more you say, the more apperent it is you have no idea what your talking about.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> If you are stoned, I'll figure it out every time. It is essential to know the person pretty well before that is consistently possible.
> 
> Let's face it. You smoke pot to enjoy the effect that it has on you, right? I have never heard of any pot heads going down to the local dealer and asking for some more of "that bud with the delicate aroma" You don't smoke the stuff because of some special satisfaction you might have with the consumption of a premium product, you smoke it to get stoned.
> 
> You smoke it because it bombs your brain and makes you happy. To a non-stoner experienced at being around pot-heads, this becomes a pretty easy to spot emotional condition. Ever watch Cheech & Chong? Their performance was a greatly exaggerated parody of stoners, but they still got it right. Probably from experience.


 Cheech and chong is a joke right , you really think thats real life , if ya do than I could fool you everytime and anytime , but the truth is who cares right , this thread is about drunks not stoners ..


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Cheech and chong is a joke right , you really think thats real life , if ya do than I could fool you everytime and anytime , but the truth is who cares right , this thread is about drunks not stoners ..



Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan



I think theres a problem and your "A" is a little sticky.


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## pdqdl (Apr 29, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> ... , this thread is about drunks not stoners ..



So true. Thanks for reminding us.

I had two guys show up partly drunk for work yesterday. One of them told me he needed to sit out until last night went away. The other didn't come in until 10:00am, but he admitted that he had hung one on, and that it had led to major fights with his spouse.

I was obliged to send a different employee home last friday, as he showed up drunk. He blew .104 at 8:00 am. He denied drinking anything or being drunk until I whipped out the detector. Yes. I tested him because I could smell it on him when I walked past him by the time clock. I haven't seen him come back to work since last friday, when he discovered that I could tell when he was drunk. He'll be fired tomorrow for absence.

Yes. In my opinion. drunks are a much bigger problem than stoners.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

Fartbuster ass wipe pot head neg repped me too. Returned the favor.:chainsawguy:


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## TreeTarget (May 1, 2010)

Some of the places you work in are prime for these types of problems as well, not just tree-service work...Day workers, laborers, the inexperienced and those unqualified for any "organization" are always the heaviest with substance abuse problems...you would think.
In moving around the job market as much as I have, there has been alot of opportunity for meeting people of all walks and in several different fields of employ. These jobs have usually always surprised me when it came to social behaviors, both beneficial self-destructive.
As for my observations of those jobs I have held in the past, I have ranked them highest to lowest in terms of chemical use by the people I worked with:

Factory worker...alcohol and pot
K-12 teacher...alcohol and prescription drugs
Cemetery worker...alcohol, pot and stims...tied with...
...Construction/framing...alcohol, stims and pot 
Graduate assistant (in association with professors)...pot and alcohol
Behavioral therapist...alcohol and stolen drugs
Map makers and research assistants...ALCOHOL
Daycare (from teacher to director)...alcohol, some pot
Truck driver...stims of any sort for days, binge drink on breaks
Security...alcohol with pot between tests
Restaurant worker (regardless of type)...alcohol/pot tie
Athletic training...alcohol, prescription drugs
Tree service...alcohol tied with pot
Painter...alcohol

That's the short of it. And only a small bit of the market...
Want to extrapolate?
Chemical use has been a part of humanity since man learned to put things in his mouth. Before that evolutionary leap however, we have all sorts of animals in the world that use various chemicals to alter their moods...look it up.
Responsibility is the key.
We have all done, and will continue to do things beyond our strengths...
...but hopefully we recognize these times through attention to such things and realize, regardless of what, where, when and why...

..."a man's got to know his limitations."


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## treeclimber101 (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Fartbuster ass wipe pot head neg repped me too. Returned the favor.:chainsawguy:



Wow fartbuster tough words there, that red pellet must have gone right up your :censored: huh....


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## treeclimber101 (May 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> So true. Thanks for reminding us.
> 
> I had two guys show up partly drunk for work yesterday. One of them told me he needed to sit out until last night went away. The other didn't come in until 10:00am, but he admitted that he had hung one on, and that it had led to major fights with his spouse.
> 
> ...



A guy coming to work with a hangover is a guy whos gonna have a tough day as far as I am concerned ,and if they no show on me they take the next day off too, you wanna party fine let me know the day before or at least that night , I know that young guys need that break so whatever but no call no show really :censored: me off , its all about communication with me..


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Wow fartbuster tough words there, that red pellet must have gone right up your :censored: huh....



Them is some tough words right there. lol.


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## TreeTarget (May 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> A guy coming to work with a hangover is a guy whos gonna have a tough day as far as I am concerned ,and if they no show on me they take the next day off too, you wanna party fine let me know the day before or at least that night , I know that young guys need that break so whatever but no call no show really :censored: me off , its all about communication with me..



Can't argue with that...


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## treeclimber101 (May 1, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Can't argue with that...



I'm fair, just let me know thats all , alot of our work is sold per MAN hour and if I promise a HO three guys and two show up than I look like a idiot , at least given some time I can make up an excuse an let them know the day before and if they wanna reschedule than thats there choice ..


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

Here is a really entertaining update from last night:

Last Friday's drunk employee showed up for his final paycheck today... too drunk to make it during business hours, he was pounding on my shop door trying to get me to open up and give him his check when I wasn't even there! He was too inebriated to figure out that I was still out working.

Enter drunk ex-employee #2, currently living across the street from my shop: trying to be protective of my property, he proceeded to enter into conversations with drunk ex-employee #1. A fight ensued shortly thereafter, no doubt related to the fact that one was black, and the other was white. Then they both kept calling me on the telephone, each of them was too drunk to understand, or able to follow simple instructions. 

I told (white) ex-employee #2 to call the police and report (black) ex-employee #1, figuring that they could sort out the problem before I got back to the shop. By the time I got there, nobody was very anxious to get in a fight anymore.

I hate talking to drunks!

BTW: #2 is a pretty peaceful fellow, and #1 is well known to be an angry drunk. I presumed that #1 initiated the attack, which was confirmed by the wife of another employee who was waiting for me to come back to the shop also. I suspect that #2 instigated the fight by making unwelcome references to the good-natured people of Nigeria.


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Here is a really entertaining update from last night:
> 
> Last Friday's drunk employee showed up for his final paycheck today... too drunk to make it during business hours, he was pounding on my shop door trying to get me to open up and give him his check when I wasn't even there! He was too inebriated to figure out that I was still out working.
> 
> ...



Too much drama fer me lol


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## treeclimber101 (May 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Here is a really entertaining update from last night:
> 
> Last Friday's drunk employee showed up for his final paycheck today... too drunk to make it during business hours, he was pounding on my shop door trying to get me to open up and give him his check when I wasn't even there! He was too inebriated to figure out that I was still out working.
> 
> ...



No offense but it sounds like you hiring :censored:holes plain and simple , go out and look for a few guys who are worth some good money , sounds like to me $11 hr. guys are not the answer for you to save a buck...


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

No call, no show is annoying, it makes me feel like I'm guilty of something when I have to call the customer with some lie and reschedule. Its sort of hard to tell the customer that your help is a bunch of losers though... not that I haven't. lol.


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## treeclimber101 (May 1, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> No call, no show is annoying, it makes me feel like I'm guilty of something when I have to call the customer with some lie and reschedule. Its sort of hard to tell the customer that your help is a bunch of losers though... not that I haven't. lol.



Your right thats the kinda of :censored: that makes the HO never call ya again , even if you go there and wow them , they want clean and simple easy contractors and especially now they are so money picky that if you do get some good work you better come at it correct .


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> No offense but it sounds like you hiring :censored:holes plain and simple , go out and look for a few guys who are worth some good money , sounds like to me $11 hr. guys are not the answer for you to save a buck...



They were both pretty good fellows, and both were hard working, too. Things change quickly as soon as they start drinking, though.

Neither of them was drunk when I interviewed them for work, either.

That's okay. I am getting my message out to the other employees that drinking around me is the wrong way to remain popular.


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> They were both pretty good fellows, and both were hard working, too. Things change quickly as soon as they start drinking, though.
> 
> Neither of them was drunk when I interviewed them for work, either.
> 
> That's okay. I am getting my message out to the other employees that drinking around me is the wrong way to remain popular.



It sounds like they were just low on drinking money to me.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I look like a idiot .



Remember last week when you forgot you made a post about your chipper or something and then jumped on OD for "stalking you"?

Bet we had a hangover after that.

Don't even think you don't get a hangover from smoking weed too.


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## jefflovstrom (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Remember last week when you forgot you made a post about your chipper or something and then jumped on OD for "stalking you"?
> 
> Bet we had a hangover after that.
> 
> Don't even think you don't get a hangover from smoking weed too.


Stupid!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> It sounds like they were just low on drinking money to me.



To work drunks and stoners you have to pay them just enough. Too much and their in jail or the hospital or still drinking Monday morning. Too little and their addictions are not even tickled so they end up thieving your stuff. I don't hire and save myself those problems anymore, its easier for me to just do the work.


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Remember last week when you forgot you made a post about your chipper or something and then jumped on OD for "stalking you"?
> 
> Bet we had a hangover after that.
> 
> Don't even think you don't get a hangover from smoking weed too.



It was the pony motor I think.. I remember thinking: wow! those things are that expensive! Thank god mine is new.

You end up going to Jasper for that treeclimber?? how much again? maybe mine needs an oil change.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> To work drunks and stoners you have to pay them just enough. Too much and their in jail or the hospital or still drinking Monday morning. Too little and their addictions are not even tickled so they end up thieving your stuff. I don't hire and save myself those problems anymore, its easier for me to just do the work.



bingo!

Here's a typical property we worked on last week. These people are leaders in industry and professions. You think they want stoners and potheads and drunks ruining what they bust ass for every day? 







this is just a small portion of the property with carriage house and tennis courts etc behind the camera and the front of the property beyond the camera.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Stupid!
> Jeff



what's stupit jeffy?

let's stop with the cryptic posts. :bang:


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

Ok. I confess.

I want to come over to your place, knock you on the head, and steal your customers.

I like to leave a few more lower branches on my shade trees, however. Some customers just like them that way, don't they?


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> bingo!
> 
> Here's a typical property we worked on last week. These people are leaders in industry and professions. You think they want stoners and potheads and drunks ruining what they bust ass for every day?
> 
> ...



Did you prune the hardwood far end of pic? Nice job  PS: looks like a barn swallow has a million dollar home


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Did you prune the hardwood far end of pic? Nice job



Couple of years ago. They wanted the thornless Honey locust raised way up and they get mass deadwood. But we have been on that property for over thirty years and done thousands of jobs all over that property. He is a local celebrity.


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## jefflovstrom (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> bingo!
> 
> Here's a typical property we worked on last week. These people are leaders in industry and professions. You think they want stoners and potheads and drunks ruining what they bust ass for every day?
> 
> ...



Looks like the normal everyday here,
Jeff


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

Just because you cant drink or smoke anymore tv, doesn't mean you have to ram that crap down everyone throats... I mean really! Plenty of people can handle themselves just fine and still drink and smoke a little doober in moderation.

Like I said in the other thread: the folding chairs are down in the church basement waiting for you!


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

Let's see some pictures of your boss'es properties Jeff. Isn't he way younger than you are? ...thaaaat might kinda bother me.


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## jefflovstrom (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> what's stupit jeffy?
> 
> let's stop with the cryptic posts. :bang:



Cryptic? You don't get a hang-over from weed.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Couple of years ago. They wanted the thornless Honey locust raised way up and they get mass deadwood. But we have been on that property for over thirty years and done thousands of jobs all over that property. He is a local celebrity.



I have several here that are similar need about a thousand of those customers ehhhhh:monkey:


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Just because you cant drink or smoke anymore tv, doesn't mean you have to ram that crap down everyone throats... I mean really! Plenty of people can handle themselves just fine and still drink and smoke a little doober in moderation.
> 
> Like I said in the other thread: the folding chairs are down in the church basement waiting for you!



Just as in the other post....don't know what that second paragraph means 

Good tree men aren't the moderating kind I have found over the years (me included)


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

I don't think that is a barn swallow nest, Rope. 

I grew up with barn swallows in our barn, and their nests are almost entirely mud, and they are shaped differently. You have a keen eye for detail, though.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cryptic? You don't get a hang-over from weed.
> Jeff



I disagree. Why do they talk the way they do and forget stuff and all the other symptoms that are common after it wears off?

I have smoked a boatload of weed in my day. Hell you could practically trip over it in Viet Nam. 

Just grew up and quit to run my business better for my family.


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## jefflovstrom (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Let's see some pictures of your boss'es properties Jeff. Isn't he way younger than you are? ...thaaaat might kinda bother me.



We are featured on the Reporter of this months TCIA magazine- check it out your self smart ass, or just go to our website.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cryptic? You don't get a hang-over from weed.
> Jeff



Nonsense!

I only consumed weed once in my life: it was in a magic-brownie that I ate. That thing absolutely ruined me, and I couldn't go to work for two days. It ranks as one of my worst experiences ever, right up there with many of my extensive personal injuries. 

I suppose that a more experienced pot consumer doesn't notice the after effects as much, but I certainly did. I was told that they were particularly strong brownies as well, so I'm sure that was a factor. All the other people that made them seem to think they were a superior product.  I was well known in that crowd for my refusal to smoke any weed with them, so they all thought that my predicament was a bit entertaining.

I have a rather low tolerance for anything that doesn't qualify as "food", except for alcohol. I seem to have excellent capacity for not being affected too much by alcohol. I think that comes from my hard drinking Arkansas/Tennessee forefathers.

If it's any consolation, I get hellacious hangovers from booze as well. Never two days long, though.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We are featured on the Reporter of this months TCIA magazine- check it out your self smart ass, or just go to our website.
> Jeff



ouch again....that's gonna leave a mark fersure dude


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## jefflovstrom (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> I disagree. Why do they talk the way they do and forget stuff and all the other symptoms that are common after it wears off?
> 
> I have smoked a boatload of weed in my day. Hell you could practically trip over it in Viet Nam.
> 
> Just grew up and quit to run my business better for my family.



I dont smoke weed anymore, the last time would be around 1999, but I never had a hang-over from it- I don't drink liquor either-but I see what you are saying.
Jeff


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Just as in the other post....don't know what that second paragraph means
> 
> Good tree men aren't the moderating kind I have found over the years (me included)



It was just a rip at the AA types is all. The sober ones become like the born agains all too often, next they start trying to convert others.

But yeah, I hear ya on the moderation thing, and you are right there.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> It was just a rip at the AA types is all. The sober ones become like the born agains all too often, next they start trying to convert others.
> 
> But yeah, I hear ya on the moderation thing, and you are right there.



I didn't do the AA thing but I sure don't have anything against it.


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> I didn't do the AA thing but I sure don't have anything against it.



I do. Its a horrible brain washing cult that causes more confusion and misery than good with its lies and falsehoods... they even force you to go if you should be unfortunate enough to get too many dwi's. lol.

Thats another story though....


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I do. Its a horrible brain washing cult that causes more confusion and misery than good with its lies and falsehoods... they even force you to go if you should be unfortunate enough to get too many dwi's. lol.
> 
> Thats another story though....



Your story? just wonderin' If so, hope you are doing ok.


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

I didn't let them get to me! Lol.


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## treevet (May 1, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I didn't let them get to me! Lol.



They won't give up. I saw your name on the List.


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## tree MDS (May 1, 2010)

Cheers boys! 

Talk to ya tomorrow.


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## Blakesmaster (May 2, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I do. Its a horrible brain washing cult that causes more confusion and misery than good with its lies and falsehoods....



I went to an AA meeting once. Talk about a miserable bunch. They seemed pretty convinced that it made their lives better though so more power to 'em. It's all about moderation. The people at AA put so much weight on complete abstinence that when a member screws up and has one drink they're convinced it's the end of the world and wind up binging their way off the deep end.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> I went to an AA meeting once. Talk about a miserable bunch. They seemed pretty convinced that it made their lives better though so more power to 'em. It's all about moderation. The people at AA put so much weight on complete abstinence that when a member screws up and has one drink they're convinced it's the end of the world and wind up binging their way off the deep end.



Yeah, and unless you are in AA, it doesnt matter how long youve been sober, you are still considered a "dry drunk". I love those corny little sayings and the gay hand holding too "works if you work it". lol.

Unfortunately I have been forced to listen to my share of that inane drivel... I'm convinced its for the simple types.


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

That is not accurate information Blakesmaster but I suppose it happens sometimes. What brought you to the meeting?

Anyway at the risk of being labeled the type you mention above.....and more power if anyone can moderate drugs meant to loosen inhibitions and control.....watched the movie Crazy Heart last night just for the expected music.

Typical story of the Drunk...looses his fam, ruins their lives and many others including his own and his health....sobers up....and all is good (better). If I could only explain all the time lost in my life thinking I was having a good time or going to have a good time and in reality it was just based on the theory of having a good time remembered from way in the past (or tv commercials).

Don't remember maybe even ten percent of the "good times" I had. Domestic fights, street fights, bar fights (once wrote down around a hundred of them), occassional jail involvement, all pretty easily forgotten when it comes to "Miller Time" again.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> That is not accurate information Blakesmaster but I suppose it happens sometimes. What brought you to the meeting?
> 
> Anyway at the risk of being labeled the type you mention above.....and more power if anyone can moderate drugs meant to loosen inhibitions and control.....watched the movie Crazy Heart last night just for the expected music.
> 
> ...



Its more of a maintenance plan here than all that drama... I hear you though, and you're right. The old ways die hard for some of us. Hopefully eventually I'll figure it out.

How old were you when you finally put it down tv??


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## Blakesmaster (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> That is not accurate information Blakesmaster but I suppose it happens sometimes. What brought you to the meeting?



2 DWI's w/in 10 years in NY state will put you in a world of ####. 

Never got into fighting or anything crazy while drinking but I guess that can happen to some. I just got caught a little over the limit 3 years back after playing a show at the local watering hole. That caused the state to label me a drunk, took away my license for a year, threw my ass in jail, made me attend meetings, cost me well over 10 grand and put me on probation for 5 years. Not that I condone driving after having 5 beers but the punishment was a bit extreme in my opinion. 

In hindsight, it was for the best. It gave me a reason to quit the band and the nightlife and focus on growing a real business which is currently doing quite well. And, I learned moderation, but that happened on my own as my business became too time consuming and tiresome for any late night activity. 

And that's the problem with the AA crowd. They ( for the most part ) have replaced wasting their time on a barstool with wasting their time in a folding chair. Their lives are no better, they're just biding their time on this planet a different way, which is sad. 90 meetings in 90 days? Sorry, I have a life. Higher power? Um, no thank you. AA isn't a cure, it's another drug. Focusing on not drinking is just as bad as focusing on drinking. You're still not accomplishing anything. Focus on something that makes you happy and enriches your life, eventually drinking won't matter so much.


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Its more of a maintenance plan here than all that drama... I hear you though, and you're right. The old ways die hard for some of us. Hopefully eventually I'll figure it out.
> 
> How old were you when you finally put it down tv??



Around 40 and I was going full bore til then.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> 2 DWI's w/in 10 years in NY state will put you in a world of ####.
> 
> Never got into fighting or anything crazy while drinking but I guess that can happen to some. I just got caught a little over the limit 3 years back after playing a show at the local watering hole. That caused the state to label me a drunk, took away my license for a year, threw my ass in jail, made me attend meetings, cost me well over 10 grand and put me on probation for 5 years. Not that I condone driving after having 5 beers but the punishment was a bit extreme in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Oh man, you know you want some of that fine AA pooty.


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## ropensaddle (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> They won't give up. I saw your name on the List.



Oh he is on the list, I saw it at the meeting lol. I can say a few meetings and a belly full of beer is pure d torture. Mds go get drunk it may be worth a bad case of the jitters!


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> 2 DWI's w/in 10 years in NY state will put you in a world of ####.
> 
> Never got into fighting or anything crazy while drinking but I guess that can happen to some. I just got caught a little over the limit 3 years back after playing a show at the local watering hole. That caused the state to label me a drunk, took away my license for a year, threw my ass in jail, made me attend meetings, cost me well over 10 grand and put me on probation for 5 years. Not that I condone driving after having 5 beers but the punishment was a bit extreme in my opinion.
> 
> ...



I hear your point but like I said I passed on the AA but witness it all the time thru family and employee and friends. 

What I see, unlike the desperation you describe, is a totally separate society that interacts with and supports each other. They have a great time with dances, parties, Superbowls, UFC watching, BarbQ's etc. etc....., anything anyone else does. They just all do it together and they do it sober.

Me, I pretty much just hang out with you guys, ride my mcycle with some friends, play racquetball with leagues and work and be with the fam.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> Around 40 and I was going full bore til then.



I just turned 37, so theres still hope for me I guess.

rope, that one soared right over my head there pard.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> I hear your point but like I said I passed on the AA but witness it all the time thru family and employee and friends.
> 
> What I see, unlike the desperation you describe, is a totally separate society that interacts with and supports each other. They have a great time with dances, parties, Superbowls, UFC watching, BarbQ's etc. etc....., anything anyone else does. They just all do it together and they do it sober.
> 
> Me, I pretty much just hang out with you guys, ride my mcycle with some friends, play racquetball with leagues and work and be with the fam.



Good for you on dodging the cult bullet tv!


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## ropensaddle (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> I hear your point but like I said I passed on the AA but witness it all the time thru family and employee and friends.
> 
> What I see, unlike the desperation you describe, is a totally separate society that interacts with and supports each other. They have a great time with dances, parties, Superbowls, UFC watching, BarbQ's etc. etc....., anything anyone else does. They just all do it together and they do it sober.
> 
> Me, I pretty much just hang out with you guys, ride my mcycle with some friends, play racquetball with leagues and work and be with the fam.



Glad it seems to be working for you tv What I know is the focus is on selfish behaviors and cleaning your slate by making amends to people you ran over in a drunken stupor. It is a way of life to be envied imo. Some of the best people I know are drunks recovering but for the grace of God there I be. I have done nothing stronger than aspirin since 1995.


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## Blakesmaster (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> I hear your point but like I said I passed on the AA but witness it all the time thru family and employee and friends.
> 
> What I see, unlike the desperation you describe, is a totally separate society that interacts with and supports each other. They have a great time with dances, parties, Superbowls, UFC watching, BarbQ's etc. etc....., anything anyone else does. They just all do it together and they do it sober.
> 
> Me, I pretty much just hang out with you guys, ride my mcycle with some friends, play racquetball with leagues and work and be with the fam.



Cool. I know you didn't go the meetings route, TV, and I applaud you and anyone else who has successfully quit, AA or not. My beef is with the black and white nature of AA. As if quitting drinking in and of itself makes your life better. That's just untrue. Finding fulfillment in friends, career, family, hobbies,etc. versus searching for it in a bottle is what makes your life better. Enjoying a few cold ones isn't a bad thing.


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## ropensaddle (May 2, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I just turned 37, so theres still hope for me I guess.
> 
> rope, that one soared right over my head there pard.



Oh, I know it was but it is so simple my grand kids understand it.


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## ropensaddle (May 2, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> My beef is with the black and white nature of AA. As if quitting drinking in and of itself makes your life better. That's just untrue. Finding fulfillment in friends, career, family, hobbies,etc. versus searching for it in a bottle is what makes your life better. Enjoying a few cold ones isn't a bad thing.



Nothing could be further from the truth here blakes what you are describing is a dry drunk.
That is a person that just stopped but did no other changes. Also every friend of Bill W I ever listened to said AA does not have a monopoly on sobriety. Also: enjoying alcohol is not a bad thing for a non-alcoholic, if you can drink like a gentleman my hat is off to you.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Oh, I know it was but it is so simple my grand kids understand it.



Dont be getting all worked up just because I said AA is a cult for simple bastards now rope! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (May 2, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Dont be getting all worked up just because I said AA is a cult for simple bastards now rope! :hmm3grin2orange:



Actually I am just grateful I am not as unique as you!


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

There's a handful of people I have met in my life that could just "have a few" socially.

The majority are just in the early stages of THE TRAP. Once fully trapped there is no escape and the addiction is totally out of your control until you find abstinence (IMO). Whatever way you find it is worthy of immeasurable admiration and something one has to be proud of the rest of their lives.

They likely become better people than if they never became addicted at all through this achievement. (again IMO)


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## jefflovstrom (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> There's a handful of people I have met in my life that could just "have a few" socially.
> 
> The majority are just in the early stages of THE TRAP. Once fully trapped there is no escape and the addiction is totally out of your control until you find abstinence (IMO). Whatever way you find it is worthy of immeasurable admiration and something one has to be proud of the rest of their lives.
> 
> They likely become better people than if they never became addicted at all through this achievement. (again IMO)



You either a nut job or you don't meet many people. 
Jeff


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## NCTREE (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> There's a handful of people I have met in my life that could just "have a few" socially.
> 
> The majority are just in the early stages of THE TRAP. Once fully trapped there is no escape and the addiction is totally out of your control until you find abstinence (IMO). Whatever way you find it is worthy of immeasurable admiration and something one has to be proud of the rest of their lives.
> 
> They likely become better people than if they never became addicted at all through this achievement. (again IMO)



I guess i'm one of the few. I started drinking when I was 15, i am now 34. I didn't start drinking heavily until college. I was at the bars 4 to 5 times a week up until two years ago. The thing is I never went out to drink and get ####ed up. I went out to be be around people and socialize. I still have a few here and there, even then 2 beers makes me feel like #### the next day. I could never understand how some people can control consumption and others can't. I even have alcoholism in the family. 

I tend to wonder if the disease really exists, to me it's more about having self control.


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## BlackenedTimber (May 2, 2010)

Admittedly, I have not read all 17 pages of posts, but back to the OP:

In the power industry, if someone is suspected of being under the influence, of any drug/alcohol/sugar high/whatever, it only takes one other person to observe, and a second person to agree, and the suspect is piss tested on the spot. 

I actually worked a 1/2 day for a guy up in Checotah, OK recently, spraying lovely cancer-causing chemicals on trees, and I was piss-tested before being hired (the job didn't work out, because like most, I was promised the world, and received nothing...) and the manager was amazed that I passed... probly had more to do with my full sleeves of tatts and big old beard than the fact that I haven't touched drugs in a long time.

If you suspect someone of being drunk or high, test them on site. The little piss tests from any drug store are about 15-20 bucks, keep some in your truck if you have a real problem. They test for marijuana, pcp, methamphetamine, heroine, cocaine, etc etc etc. 

As far as being drunk on site, I know that we had issues with people's rights being violated by breathalyzing them on site (don't ask me how that one works...) so we had to use reasonable suspicion and confer with another manager before removing the individual from the project.

Best of luck.


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## jefflovstrom (May 2, 2010)

I tend to wonder if the disease really exists, to me it's more about having self control.[/QUOTE]

I think the people who cannot handle it need to call it a disease, makes them feel better to place blame.
Jeff


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## csx7006 (May 2, 2010)

I work with them everyday. Its amazing what drunk Marines do


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## ropensaddle (May 2, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I tend to wonder if the disease really exists, to me it's more about having self control.



I think the people who cannot handle it need to call it a disease, makes them feel better to place blame.
Jeff[/QUOTE]

I think you have not examined it much to make that statement. Ever have to go help someone suffering DT shakes? Ever know a guy that has swore it off forever get drunk two days later? I believe I am going to leave this alone as no good will likely develop out of it but it is hard to let the lies flow.


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## Blakesmaster (May 2, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Also: enjoying alcohol is not a bad thing for a non-alcoholic



No offense Rope, but that's the part I was talking about. I don't think that enjoying alcohol is bad even if you are an alcoholic. You just have to learn moderation. Learn to drink and whoop it up when you can but make sure your ducks are in a row and your life is not just manageable, but fruitful.


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## Blakesmaster (May 2, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think the people who cannot handle it need to call it a disease, makes them feel better to place blame.
> Jeff



By the clinical definition, yes, it is a disease/disorder/affliction. But then again, so is ADD and a ton of other things that can be controlled. Would I put it up there with cancer? No. But perhaps with diabetes, high cholesterol and other preventable ailments.


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## jefflovstrom (May 2, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I think the people who cannot handle it need to call it a disease, makes them feel better to place blame.
> Jeff



I think you have not examined it much to make that statement. Ever have to go help someone suffering DT shakes? Ever know a guy that has swore it off forever get drunk two days later? 

Yeah, my Dad!, 
Jeff


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## BarkBuster20 (May 2, 2010)

I sure am glad i was smart enough to quit drinking when i was 19/20. I do smoke pot though, much healthier, safe, and its not debilitating. I have to admit i have NEVER gotten my ass kicked from smoking to much pot, alcohol on the other hand...

If some people cannot handle there pot, thats fine its not for them. I know 2-3 people that totally cannot handle getting stoned, everyones body is different with different levels of chemicals naturally in our bodies. 

I find it funny how many people have an issue with me smoking and working, especially considering I WORK FOR MYSELF, BY MYSELF, also i have never had a work related injury.


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## jefflovstrom (May 2, 2010)

BarkBuster20 said:


> I sure am glad i was smart enough to quit drinking when i was 19/20. I do smoke pot though, much healthier, safe, and its not debilitating. I have to admit i have NEVER gotten my ass kicked from smoking to much pot, alcohol on the other hand...
> 
> If some people cannot handle there pot, thats fine its not for them. I know 2-3 people that totally cannot handle getting stoned, everyones body is different with different levels of chemicals naturally in our bodies.
> 
> I find it funny how many people have an issue with me smoking and working, especially considering I WORK FOR MYSELF, BY MYSELF, also i have never had a work related injury.



Ever hear of " Don't ask, don't tell?"
Jeff


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Ever hear of " Don't ask, don't tell?"
> Jeff



Now just WTF does that mean?????

If your employee is drunk you don't ask him and the drunk employee doesn't tell the boss.

Another inane post.


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## jefflovstrom (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> Now just WTF does that mean?????
> 
> If your employee is drunk you don't ask him and the drunk employee doesn't tell the boss.
> 
> Another inane post.


 Come on man!, Are you that stupid? Really?
Jeff


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> Now just WTF does that mean?????
> 
> If your employee is drunk you don't ask him and the drunk employee doesn't tell the boss.
> 
> Another inane post.



I got it, was good stuff!


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

birds of a feather I guess.


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> birds of a feather I guess.



I like to use that one myself... only relating to dirtbags, not fellow treemen however.


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## treevet (May 2, 2010)

I don't think you are a dirt bag bro. (lovestrom .....on the other hand)


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> I don't think you are a dirt bag bro. (lovestrom .....on the other hand)



Good stuff old timer! Lol.


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## cassandrasdaddy (May 2, 2010)

*recently*

pain pills are in fashion in construction.
i was once a union chef in dc not only did our contract allow drinking on the job but the hotel had to buy the beer. perversely the same union paid 28 k to send me to rehab and on my first day back i was still entitled to my beer.
a friend started drug and breath testing with his roofing company workers comp claims dropped 50% first year. he also gives you tues and wed off if you come in drunk on monday. he says they don't care about 1 day or 2 but losing 3 days pay hurts too bad


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## tree MDS (May 2, 2010)

Really though, gotta chill out a bit, then get jamming again tomorrow! (Weather permitting ).

Latter..


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## TreeTarget (May 3, 2010)

Anyone ever look into a waiver type situation? The person comes to work first time, signs a waiver of his/her own volition:
...show up drunk, with a BAC, they pay a fine, go home...
...drink or do drugs on job, dock or fine...possible go home...
...injury on job, testing shows elevated alcohol/drug content, fine/no liability...
...etc...

I mean, could be worded alot better, and in Greek legal-babble, but that ain't my stick...
Has to be something that would, if not guarantee you a way to ensure your own butt's sling, at least scare off the problem before it arises.

Have had to sign alot worse in alot worse jobs...most of which made you want to participate in one vice or another just to keep from killing yourself from repetiion or boredom...just a thought...


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