# Dutch Trig for DED?



## RepublicOfTrees (Jan 25, 2007)

Has anyone out there ever used that Dutch Trig product for preventing Dutch Elm? I've heard about it but am curious if anyone has used it with any success? How about Arbotect?


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## NYCHA FORESTER (Jan 25, 2007)

Last I heard was that it was not approved for use in the United States.


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## RepublicOfTrees (Jan 25, 2007)

That's what I thought but their webiste claims "Extensively tested in the US since 1995 and fully EPA approved since 2005" so I was wondering if anyone had bought and tried it yet. :monkey:


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## tprosser (Jan 25, 2007)

I recently talked to a guy who was involved in the project with the city of Denver where they treated a bunch of trees. He said that the treated trees died at the same rate as the untreated trees. Then said that some of the treated trees got sick from the treatment. That when they stopped treating the trees got better. They no longer use it.

I cannot find any research on it.


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## cryo stops wear (Jan 26, 2007)

*ded*

If you can get pentra bark and agri fos fungicide use agri fos @ 1.5 qts into 1 gal of h20 then add 5 ozs. of pentra bark in a 
backpack sprayer and hose down 8` of trunk. This isnt yet labeled for ded but the high phosphite content will clean out vascular system. you can also substitute propiconazole for agri fos use at 100 gal rate in 2 gal of h20 . THEN add pentra bark @ 4 ozs. per gal of finished material and hose it down.

Check local laws before applying of course.


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## BonsaiJedi (Jan 26, 2007)

cryo stops wear said:


> If you can get pentra bark and agri fos fungicide use agri fos @ 1.5 qts into 1 gal of h20 then add 5 ozs. of pentra bark in a
> backpack sprayer and hose down 8` of trunk. This isnt yet labeled for ded but the high phosphite content will clean out vascular system. you can also substitute propiconazole for agri fos use at 100 gal rate in 2 gal of h20 . THEN add pentra bark @ 4 ozs. per gal of finished material and hose it down.
> 
> Check local laws before applying of course.




Any data on this actually working for DED or are you speculating?


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## cryo stops wear (Jan 28, 2007)

*ded*

During the 3 years of use I have not lost any elms, some had very high pressure from diseased trees that were very close.
There is also a product called prontech that should be labeled soon for ded. The agri fos works great on spruce and beech canker and has made 90% of trees treated more vigorous.

Customers have even noticed there trees are healthier.
The only down side is the penta bark can burn plants around base and turf but if you wet down before and after the burn will not happen. It will also kill lichens and algae etc, on trunk and will leave a white appearance do to killing of lichens etc,


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## Urban Forester (Jan 29, 2007)

Our best experience has come from macro-infusing Arbortect.


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## Dutch BCMA (Feb 23, 2007)

*Dutch Trig for Dutch Elm Disease*



RepublicOfTrees said:


> Has anyone out there ever used that Dutch Trig product for preventing Dutch Elm? I've heard about it but am curious if anyone has used it with any success? How about Arbotect?



Dutch Trig is a biological vaccin for American Elm trees to prevent DED.
A few *drops *of vaccine are injected in May, on *healthy *trees resulting in a very high level of protection from DED. The vaccine strengthens the elms natural immune system, with a 99% efficacy. The trees which are lost in the remaining 1% are lost to root graft transmitted infections, against which nothing can be done, or already existing infections, against which this preventative vaccine does not help. 

Dutch Trig has been used successfully on many locations in the US already, amongst others Grant Park in downtown Chicago (800 elms) and University campus in Seattle and Princeton. 

Dutch Trig has been introduced in Minnesota for the first time during the ISA trade show in Minneapolis in the summer of 2006, the main reason why Dutch Trig is relatively unknown in this elm-rich area of the US.

The reason why the City of Denver stopped the program is that many of the Dutch Trig treated trees were already infected with DED, and thus still died despite the injections. Secondly, because Denver has an isolated "pocket" of about 1500 elms in total, in combination with the strong monitoring and removal program, has succeeded to diminish DED in the entire population to a level where monitoring and removal is proficient to control DED.

Dutch Trig is an effective tool in the fight against DED. It is environmentally safe, application is fast (seconds) and easy, and thus affordable. Dutch Trig offers Arborists a tool to protect many elm trees every year and city's and communities a chance to safe a lot of money because of the fast application and the minimal amount of product used. (In the Netherlands 35.000 elm trees are treated every year in a period of 4 weeks with a team of 16 arborists).


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## RepublicOfTrees (Feb 23, 2007)

Thanks for the ad, Dutch, but I was curious if any ARBORIST had used it in the real world here in the states, not just in trials.


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## Dutch BCMA (Feb 26, 2007)

RepublicOfTrees said:


> Thanks for the ad, Dutch, but I was curious if any ARBORIST had used it in the real world here in the states, not just in trials.



A list of Arborist Companies using Dutch Trig can be found on the product's website (Results, United States page). To get a list with details of Arborists whom you can contact, contact the European Distributor contact person by e-mail and refer to this tread. He can help you out with all the details by e-mail.


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## tprosser (Feb 26, 2007)

*Dutch Trig like many other proposed cures*

I had a conversation with the Person who was responsible for the city of Denver's Dutch Trig Project. He now works for Swingle. He told me that the trees were not infected before treatment and that the Dutch Trig did not work. He went so far as to call dutch trig - "a Joke". He also said it made many of the trees sick (Droopy and sickly were his words). He said after they stopped treating the trees got better. This is not the first material that has come into this market making these claims and not fulfilling them. Putting Verticillium Dahlia into a tree seems a little risky to me.

The only product with a proven track record at this point, is Arbotect used at the 12 oz per inch rate injected into the root flares with a large volume of water dilution. This is what most Arborists swear by and they probably won't risk their clients trees based on your claims.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 26, 2007)

Aren't a lot of folks using Alamo now for DED?


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## tprosser (Feb 26, 2007)

*Alamo for DED*

No not very many companies are using Alamo for Dutch Elm Disease. It is highly effective, but only for 1 year. The research done at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University clearly shows that it does not move into new wood nor does it stay in the tree for longer than the current season.

Some people claim it lasts longer - but our experience and others such as Bartlett, Davey, and Swingle show that it is a current year treatment only. This makes it impracticable to use since it provides no DED protection the following spring before you can treat and you have to wound every year versus Arbotect which needs reapplication after 3 years.


Here is the link to the research I mentioned above: http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-060899-161452/unrestricted/Diss.pdf


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 26, 2007)

tprosser said:


> but our experience and others such as Bartlett, Davey, and Swingle show that it is a current year treatment only.



Didn't Swingle have a huge judgeemnt against them after using Alamo several years ago, a large number of very mature trees died?



> The only product with a proven track record at this point, is Arbotect used at the 12 oz per inch rate injected into the root flares with a large volume of water dilution



I agree with your assesment of Arbotech Tom, but I think you should disclose your relationship in the statement.


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## tprosser (Feb 26, 2007)

I am not sure of the details on Swingle - but that is what I also heard.

Our company treats about 8500 elms with Arbotect over a 3 year period and we are the distributor for both Alamo and Arbotect for the US. (We could also be a distributor of Dutch Trig - but chose not to be)

I think that is what you meant by disclosure - I already assumed people knew this.

Thanks
Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 26, 2007)

tprosser said:


> I think that is what you meant by disclosure - I already assumed people knew this.



Thanks Tom, many of us do, but the casual reader may not. 

And thatnks for being a sponsor too


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## ATH (Feb 26, 2007)

tprosser said:


> ........ The research done at the University of Virginia...........


Wash off your keyboard after typing that!  

Or else type it correctly: "THE university of Virginia" -- as in Virginia Tech (otherwise known as Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University). They only do sissy research at UVA, VT is the place for trees in that Commonwealth  

Go Hokies!

(Thanks for the link -to the VT research- though. I am also looking at options to help folks address DED concerns. I am hesitant to recommend treatments until I cna read as much research as possible on them.)


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## Tree Keeper (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't believe the question is which one is better because it seems that both Arbotect and Dutch Trig have the necessary research and a proven track record. Dutch Trig offers a lower cost option for the property with several elms not to mention the speed at which DT can be applied. A highly trained crew could possibly treat 15 to 20 elms in a ten hour day with Arbotect. 15 to 20 elms could be treated by one guy before lunch with DT. I have also seen elms that have been injected several times over with Arbotect using label recommendations and you are often lucky to find healthy wood in which to place the high helix bit


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## Urban Forester (Feb 27, 2007)

Tree Keeper said:


> I have also seen elms that have been injected several times over with Arbotect using label recommendations and you are often lucky to find healthy wood in which to place the high helix bit



That is a concern, no doubt. However I'm a strong believer in the old adage "if it's not broke, don't fix it'. We have used Arbortect since day one, and it's saved many trees. I defend (?) "injection site wounding" in the same way I do w/EAB. Is 6 or 8 small holes worse than 200 larvae eating the crap out of tree or in this case a rapidly moving vascular 'destroyer' killing an 80 or 90 year old tree?


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## tprosser (Feb 27, 2007)

Tree Keeper said:


> I don't believe the question is which one is better because it seems that both Arbotect and Dutch Trig have the necessary research and a proven track record.



Ryan,
I think you need to tell people that you are the Minnesota Rep for Dutch Trig. Please attach the published and peer reviewed research that you are saying exists. We cannot find any. Bartlett did challenge inoculations and lost many of the treated trees - not published - but negative research rarely is. 

Also - 3 years of treatment with Dutch Trig does cost about the same as Arbotect - and you need to revisit the tree every spring. What about the infections that happen in April and May before the Dutch Trig is active in the tree.

This product is just another in the long line of products that have come to the market since I have been working with this disease - all made similar claims.


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## Tree Keeper (Feb 28, 2007)

Yes Tom I am a rep for the midwest and I will also disclose that I ran the injection division at Rainbow. I am very excited that there is a biological control agent available for DED. Unlike the many other treatments that have been out there this one does not harm the tree. As you know infections that occur in April and May are often from beetle infections from the previous fall. True much of the research has been done in the Netherlands 100,000+ trees have been successfully treated and now that the product received EPA approval in 2006 will be used much more often. I think it is great that you can visit a tree every year and inspect the elms and the property for anything that may be needed. This type of service is recommended no matter what treatment you use.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 28, 2007)

Tree Keeper said:


> I am very excited that there is a biological control agent available for DED.



Most studies look at Ulmus A. is there a track record with DT and Ulmus Rubra? I recently found out that the 3x treatment is phytotoxic in this species.


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## tprosser (Feb 28, 2007)

*3x Treatment*

Ulmas Rubra has a smaller Xylem than Ulmas Americana. You use 1/2 the rate with Arbotect for these


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## Tree Keeper (Mar 1, 2007)

Let me clarify some things. While I worked for Rainbow I was in charge of coordinating daily activities for the Injection division and did training on the macro-infusion process and corresponded with clients regarding their trees for one year before which I was on crews and also a crew leader. A majority of the trees that were injected were very healthy and had minimal injection site injuries from previous injection cycles. I believe Arbotect to be a very effective in controlling DED. I believe Dutch trig to be a new option and another tool in the arsenal. It is not a treatment for everyone or every tree. It offers property owners/managers with several trees to do annual treatments with static budgets with out having a spike in the budget every third year. I do have several copies of the poster presentation that was presented at the ISA in Minneapolis for anyone that would like them.


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## ATH (Mar 2, 2007)

Tree Keeper said:


> I do have several copies of the poster presentation that was presented at the ISA in Minneapolis for anyone that would like them.


I am always interested in keeping up with options. Are they available in digital format or snail-mail only?

Thanks.


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## Dutch BCMA (Mar 2, 2007)

*Dutch Trig’s EPA Registration*



RepublicOfTrees said:


> "and fully EPA approved since 2005"



Correct: Dutch Trig is fully EPA registered since October 2005. 
For a copy of the EPA approved label, or the Material Safety data Sheet (MSDS), visit www.DutchTrig.com, and get a copy from the “Downloads” section.


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## Dutch BCMA (Mar 2, 2007)

*Dutch Trig a Joke??*



tprosser said:


> He went so far as to call dutch trig - "a Joke".



I would not call Dutch Trig “a joke”, when since 1992 over 350.000 Dutch Trig treatments have been performed in The Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and the US. The efficacy of the treatment over 15 years remains constant at 99%, in areas where non-treated trees do get sick at rates varying between 4 to 14% annually.


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## Dutch BCMA (Mar 2, 2007)

*Dutch Trig Claims*



tprosser said:


> "all made similar claims."



To prove a product does what is claimed, you need controlled research. That is why the University of Wisconsin (known for its resistant-elm-breeding-program) performed a controlled Dutch Trig efficacy study, in which different elm clones were Dutch Trig treated ánd challenged with Dutch elm disease. The results speak for themselves and can be found at www.dutchtrig.com under downloads, University of Wisconsin research.


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## Dutch BCMA (Mar 2, 2007)

Tree Keeper said:


> I do have several copies of the poster presentation that was presented at the ISA in Minneapolis for anyone that would like them.



For a digital PDF version of the poster check out www.dutchtrig.com under downloads.


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## Dutch BCMA (Mar 2, 2007)

*Bartlett's early Dutch Trig field trials*



tprosser said:


> "Bartlett did challenge inoculations and lost many of the treated trees"



Indeed Bartlett was the first to test and use the product. Where does the information come from that says they lost many of the treated trees? The results of their field test from 1996 and 1997 can be found on the dutch trig web page.


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## Dutch BCMA (Mar 2, 2007)

*Mycology of the Dutch Trig Vaccine*



tprosser said:


> "Putting Verticillium Dahlia into a tree seems a little risky to me."



Injecting trees with a live version of Verticillium dahliae would be risky. That is exactly why Dutch Trig uses a hyaline (or better known as “white”) variant of Verticillium albo-atrum.

The whole idea behind vaccination is using a weak strain of a (similar) disease. And the hyaline variant of Vaa is exactly that: it has lost so much of its phytopathological capacity that it is no longer capable of affecting even Verticillium susceptible tree species such as Maple! For EPA registration of Dutch Trig there has been a Non-Target-Host Range study in which Dutch Trig was injected in 19 different trees species and checked for any signs of pathogenicity for one season. 

Secondly, the hyaline variant has lost its capacity to produce microsclerotia, which are the small black structures Vaa needs to survive (hence the name “white” variant. The Vaa in Dutch Trig is only capable of producing the white mycelial threads). So the Dutch Trig version of Vaa is no longer capable of surviving anywhere, not in the elm after injection (where it can not be isolated from any more 2 to 3 weeks after injection!), nor in the soil if it would ever get there. 

If one is truly interested in full details of the mycology of the used strain of Verticillium (WCS850), contact the European distributor by e-mail (check the website).


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## tprosser (Mar 2, 2007)

*Where is the research*

Wow Dutch - that is a lot of posts.

I have 8500 elms I protect and it is my responsibility to do the best thing for my clients. If your product is better and less injurious to the tree, then it is my responsibility to let them know and give them that option. But I have been entrusted by these people to save their specimen tree and I have something that is working. I need more - a lot more. 

I've been around too long to make decisions based on words. Where is the published peer reviewed research. I went through this with Alamo and Phyton, before that it was Pseudomonas syringae, which was even in National Geographic and was touted as the cure for DED. All Failed. Alamo was supposed to last 3 years, was supported by a highly credible firm and scientist - it lasted one season. Anyone who has been treating elms for more than 10 years was likely burned by this and remembers it well. Phyton 27 was the next coming - it plain did not work. Pseudomonas syringae even had government money poured into it as it was supposed to do what your organism is claiming. 10's of thousands of trees were treated - The tree built resistance to it and it failed. 

I talked to a professor at the University of Minnesota about all the proposed treatments for DED that have come down the pike - he said he counted 532 in the past 50 years. He then told me that Arbotect is the only one with a track record that works multiple seasons. Our track record shows that over 10's of thousands of elms we have lost less then 1% over 3 years.

How about if we do a study together? I can find at least 100 mature trees.

I have questions
1. You are wounding the tree in the trunk at chest level every year. These must add up. Why do you claim that this is less invasive then Arbotect done every 3 years? It seems the same to me.

2. Why did the person who headed the project from Denver call it a Joke? I know him and he has worked with DED for many years. He is also fair and balanced and happens to be the President of the Rocky Mountain ISA Chapter right now. This makes me very nervous - probably more than anything.

3. Why despite your work on this for the past 10 years - is there no peer reviewed published research? (Bartlett lost 19 of the challenged trees - no controls or treated were lost in unchallenged trees- This means???)

4. In Minnesota - DED can infect trees as early as Mid April. Your treatment happens in Mid May and Takes 15 days to be effective. This is the same problem with Alamo annual treatments (which needs to wait till June). 

I promise to remain open minded. But I have been fooled 3 times now. It is not going to happen a fourth time.


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## Tree Keeper (Mar 5, 2007)

Tom, Bt A.K.A. Milky spore is a bacteria that is primarily used as an insecticide attacking the larvae of beetle and mosquito species depending on the variety. I also believe it is what is used to aerial spread for Gypsy Moth. It is applied in several different manners from dust to suspension. Maybe it did not work because it was going after the insect larvae and not attacking the fungus the real cause of DED? I had never heard of using it for DED.... interesting


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## tprosser (Mar 5, 2007)

*Oops*

It is called Pseudomonas syringae. Not Bacillus.


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## MarsCrash (Mar 5, 2007)

*Showdown*

So the reps for Dutch Trig say it works. The reps for other products say it doesn't. There's only one way to settle this: an old fashioned wild west showdown with backpack sprayers at ten paces.


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## tprosser (Mar 5, 2007)

*Does Dutch Trig Work?*

Its not about the reps and what they say. I can see why you would say that so I will not be insulted. 

It is all about peer reviewed published research. This is the only field, related to the health care of an important and majestic living organism, where it seems to be acceptable that certain practitioners don't deeply care about research. 

That products can come into the market and be successful without even an attempt at doing controlled studies that have to pass a high standard of review. 

Like I said - our company cares for 8500 elms. I owe them the best product and service no matter who distributes that product. Please do not associate me as someone who would sell his soul and integrity to make a buck. 

Any person who is willing to buy into any product or treatment without reading the research and demanding a high standard of predictability for their clients and the trees they have been entrusted to care for - in my opinion should stay away from trees and go into selling insurance.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 10, 2007)

tprosser said:


> It is called Pseudomonas syringae. Not Bacillus.



Or more to the point it is not Bacillus thuringiensis


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