# Skyline load capacities



## KiwiBro (Dec 28, 2014)

Hi fellas,

Was looking at the Tajfun mobile skyline specs and it lists a load capacity of just over 6000Lbs. But I am not sure I understand that. Does this mean that's the most the skyline would be happy about carrying completely airborne and if it were dragging a log rather than a full lift, it could handle much more?

Is that how it's normally accepted?

In the scenario of having to span a sensitive gulley or the like and clear the ground, is it safe to assume the skyline in question could only handle an approx 3t log? If so, that's pretty lousy when harvesting dense/wet logs.

Here's the moz 300 skyline:





Specs are here:
http://www.tajfun.com/docs/downloads/en/moz300_en_imperial.pdf


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## slowp (Dec 28, 2014)

Don't forget to add the weight of the carriage, too. I wonder if they are including it? Generally we speak in terms of payload and it does sound like it might be 3 tons maybe less. I'd be asking these questions from the manufacturer. It looks like a Koller type. Maybe go to their website and compare?

We talk in terms of payload. That would be the weight of the logs. But you do have to figure in the carriage weight and that takes a lot of payload away from the smaller yarders. And yes, full suspension would be possible at that weight, but then you have to figure in the strength of the tail hold, and deflection, and all the variables.


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## Gologit (Dec 28, 2014)

That's a cute little yarder but I wonder about those tires. Are there outriggers to keep it from jumping up and down? 

6000 lbs dead weight isn't a lot but it could still put a strain on things. There's always the temptation to pull a little more and a little more and a little more after that because nothing broke so far. I think I'd want to talk to guys who have actually used one and used it for some length of time before I cut loose with any money.

Manufacturer's specs are a good guideline but I'd rather see it work.


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## slowp (Dec 28, 2014)

Guylines. Guylines are the "outriggers".


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## Gologit (Dec 28, 2014)

slowp said:


> Guylines. Guylines are the "outriggers".


 Okay. But I was wondering about movement on those big balloon tires and the suspension system underneath. Looks kinda springy.


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## BeatCJ (Dec 28, 2014)

Looking at the brochure, the wheels lift after it's moved into place. It's got an 'anchoring claw' on the belly pan.


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## Gologit (Dec 28, 2014)

I didn't read the fine print in the brochure so I missed that. I'd still like to see it pull. I'll get out of here now and leave you yarder experts to your toys.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 28, 2014)

i guess thats a pretty small rig..........hobby set up? 3 tons wouldn't do me much good.....


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## rwoods (Dec 28, 2014)

Gologit said:


> I didn't read the fine print in the brochure so I missed that. *I'd still like to see it pull. * I'll get out of here now and leave you yarder experts to your toys.



I'll get an early start on my next year's Christmas list. I know nothing about yarders, but I want this one. And the tractor. And a crew of six 25 year olds, each with 40 years of yarding experience. And some just the right size timber. And some beautiful mountain land. And ... . Nothing like cool machinery to get me cranking. 

Seriously, always good advice to check with those who have extensively used the product. I am personally curious as whether the hydraulics of the trolley/carriage winch is battery powered or powered by an engine. Every battery powered device I have ever operated seems to die at the most inconvenient time and when you don't really have time to wait for a recharge. 

I've got to get back to my list now. Remind me how do you spell the name of that thing again? 

Ron


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## KiwiBro (Dec 28, 2014)

slowp said:


> Don't forget to add the weight of the carriage, too. I wonder if they are including it? Generally we speak in terms of payload and it does sound like it might be 3 tons maybe less. I'd be asking these questions from the manufacturer. It looks like a Koller type. Maybe go to their website and compare?
> 
> We talk in terms of payload. That would be the weight of the logs. But you do have to figure in the carriage weight and that takes a lot of payload away from the smaller yarders. And yes, full suspension would be possible at that weight, but then you have to figure in the strength of the tail hold, and deflection, and all the variables.


Thank you. If the payload is 3t, that's putting a pretty large hurdle in the way of paying something like this off, even though I don't know what it would cost. I wonder what the pulling force of the skidding cable is.


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## KiwiBro (Dec 28, 2014)

rwoods said:


> Remind me how do you spell the name of that thing again?


 If it helps any, I think it's made of unobtanium.


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## rwoods (Dec 28, 2014)

Might as well be; I am sure I would never get domestic approval for a yarder. Maybe if I said it was a zip line for the grand-kids. Ron


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## slowp (Dec 28, 2014)

I would love to have one here, but my property lacks good tailholds so I'd have to get another piece of heavy equipment to tie it to. The neighbors wouldn't like having that in their road and the talkie tooter might get complaints, although they've had geese, peacocks and roosters.

Guyline stumps might also be problematic--I'd have to try to make twisters and would probably manage to get hurt. I'll just let the steep ground be. The trees provide a bit of privacy and slope stability, I hope.

The big yarders had feet that were hydraulic. They'd telescope down and provide a bit of stability. Think of it as yet another hydraulic part to break down.


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## BeatCJ (Dec 28, 2014)

I must be weird, I love the sound of a Talkie Tooter working. Sometimes on quiet mornings I can hear them from my house, pretty rare to have a yarder show close, though.


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## KiwiBro (Dec 28, 2014)

Found a price, albeit an old one, of Euro 48,000 (excl. VAT). So I guess that's not much change from USD 60k.


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## BeatCJ (Dec 28, 2014)

This thread make me think of the You Tube Fly Cats video. Those Bergers are impressive. I remember seeing one up at Mt. St. Helens doing salvage.
Flying Cats


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## hammerlogging (Dec 28, 2014)

that's pretty vague info, the capacity number. your % deflection will change that number quite a bit, the more deflection the bigger the payload. That yarder looks like its for thinning small wood, period. Also, yes, big difference between partial and full suspension. I'll bet 6,000 is an optimal level that your on the ground rigging will rarely allow for. like a koller 300. Humptulips is the one who knows it all, see if he sees this.
Interesting about raising the tires, gologit is right, machines can't sit on rubber, the downward pressure would blow out the tires if nothing else.


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## slowp (Dec 28, 2014)

Yup, I think all the tire mounted yarders have the feet on them. There was a really cute little Thunderbird yarder here a few years ago. It was about that size, but with a cab. It was made for thinnings and it worked beautifully and I wish I had a picture of it. I think I only have parts of it in pictures and I'm thinking it was track mounted.

Here is a link to a link, that won't open for me. The download is free. Looks like they have a spreadsheet program to replace the old Loggerpc program. You went out to the field, ran a few profiles in the unit, plugged in slope and distances, chose a yarder configuration and the program would spit out payloads for each station and would identify the limiting spot--lowest payload station, on the profile. 

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r6/landmanagement/resourcemanagement/?cid=fsbdev2_027048


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## hammerlogging (Dec 28, 2014)

Field recon? I thought that's what topos were for.
joking


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## Humptulips (Dec 29, 2014)

hammerlogging said:


> that's pretty vague info, the capacity number. your % deflection will change that number quite a bit, the more deflection the bigger the payload. That yarder looks like its for thinning small wood, period. Also, yes, big difference between partial and full suspension. I'll bet 6,000 is an optimal level that your on the ground rigging will rarely allow for. like a koller 300. Humptulips is the one who knows it all, see if he sees this.
> Interesting about raising the tires, gologit is right, machines can't sit on rubber, the downward pressure would blow out the tires if nothing else.


 

Thank you for that vote of confidence but I think you are likely to be dissapointed.
I looked through the specs and to tell you the truth I don't have a clue about payload specs by weight. I could give you a guess if I could tell you what size lines it carries but those are listed in some foreign code? I will say for a small thinning rig 6000 pounds doesn't sound out of line if that is full suspension. As Patty says a lot of things that doesn't tell you.
Out on the riggin' we seldom know how much a turn weighed so I'm guessing but consider if maybe that carriage weighed a 1000 that leaves you 500o for a turn, you get 10 of those to the landing you've got yourself a load of logs. I doubt most thinning turns would go that much so anybodies guess but when I thinned we seldom suspended anything. I'm thinking it might be adeqate.
Be nice to know what size the lines are on it.
Sounds like it has hydraulic jacks and some kind of foot. Madills and Skookums were that way. 4 guylines, Kind of reminds me of Kohlers. From the description it sounds like the Skyline drum is operated seperatly from the skidding and haulback via a separte hydraulic motor. Be interesting to see what the brakes are on it or a dog like the Kohlers which I considered to be unsafe.
Carriage says electrohydraulic so I'm thinking a charger run off one of the pulleys on the carriage which could be OK. Kohler carriages charge the hydraulic system off a pulley on the carriage and that works.
It looks like the dropline is the end of your skidding line similar to an Eagle. It says it feeds it to you so maybe powered slack puller but hard to say from the literature.
Anybody notice that odd set up with the backline feeding through the carriage. That doesn't look good to me.


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## KiwiBro (Dec 29, 2014)

Approx:
3/4" skyline, 3/8" skidding / haulback, 5/8" guylines.


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## KiwiBro (Dec 29, 2014)




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## chucker (Dec 29, 2014)

Humptulips said:


> Thank you for that vote of confidence but I think you are likely to be dissapointed.
> I looked through the specs and to tell you the truth I don't have a clue about payload specs by weight. I could give you a guess if I could tell you what size lines it carries but those are listed in some foreign code? I will say for a small thinning rig 6000 pounds doesn't sound out of line if that is full suspension. As Patty says a lot of things that doesn't tell you.
> Out on the riggin' we seldom know how much a turn weighed so I'm guessing but consider if maybe that carriage weighed a 1000 that leaves you 500o for a turn, you get 10 of those to the landing you've got yourself a load of logs. I doubt most thinning turns would go that much so anybodies guess but when I thinned we seldom suspended anything. I'm thinking it might be adeqate.
> Be nice to know what size the lines are on it.
> ...


 seemed to be lower(pully set) to a point with any slack it will be wiped into the main ? might make for a few sparks to light things up in dry times hey!


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## Humptulips (Dec 29, 2014)

Line size on the skyline sounds OK but I would be happier with a 7/16 sidding line.
Did you see that enclosed looking drum at the first part of that video? I can see a cutting torch in the future for anyone who buys it. Quite the set up on that tailhold in the video too. Designers never been off the pavement is the first thought I had when I seen it.
Kind of looks like it's all remote controlled. Trying to put the engineer out of a job I guess.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 29, 2014)

I've never understood logging with a yarder.

First time I had ever seen/heard of it was on Ax Man. Seems like 90% of what they are logging could be done with a feller bunch and skidder much quicker?
Figure in all the setup time and only being able to yard 2-3 logs at a time, plus needed a chocker setter at each end ($$$ to keep those guys paid) a skidder and 1 guy is pretty cheap.


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## Marshy (Dec 29, 2014)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I've never understood logging with a yarder.
> 
> First time I had ever seen/heard of it was on Ax Man. Seems like 90% of what they are logging could be done with a feller bunch and skidder much quicker?
> Figure in all the setup time and only being able to yard 2-3 logs at a time, plus needed a chocker setter at each end ($$$ to keep those guys paid) a skidder and 1 guy is pretty cheap.


 
I dont think you fully grasp the terrain these larger yarders are logging over. No way you'll get any tracked or tire equipment on most of the grade they are working on. Probably a different story with this little yarder being close range and less grade but one benefit is low impact operation.


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## slowp (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm sure that video was made ONLY to demonstrate the basics. It is not the normal ground yarders operate on. Steep is good when skyline yarding. A steep, uniform slope means good lift and that allows you to max out the payload. You'd not get a skidder or buncher on much of the ground that is in timberlands out here. Yarder logging is not cheap, although it is less than helicopter logging. What is killing it is the high cost of insurance. Insurance should be going up after the fatalities we've had this year in our state. 

Finally, a skidder can't work, or maybe I should say shouldn't work, in muddy conditions. That isn't a problem with a yarder. They impact the soils less.


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## BeatCJ (Dec 29, 2014)

Wait, we have LOTS of flat ground around here. So much they put it on edge to get it all in.

I remember a few surveying jobs I worked on where we did more vertical in a section than we did horizontal.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 29, 2014)

Is it just me or does it seem like there are a few to many lines wiggling through that carriage? Not that having the haulback up and out of the way isn't a bad thing, but ya don't always need a haulback.

9mm, is a bit smaller than 3/8" (.354 vs .375) though it will probably work for a skidding line, it will wear out quickly. From the looks of the video they where dragging what 20 footers one at a time? maybe a little longer? If thats the max it will pull... its not worth the tires its riding on.

One of the mid sized kollers k500 series would out do it all day.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 29, 2014)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I've never understood logging with a yarder.
> 
> First time I had ever seen/heard of it was on Ax Man. Seems like 90% of what they are logging could be done with a feller bunch and skidder much quicker?
> Figure in all the setup time and only being able to yard 2-3 logs at a time, plus needed a chocker setter at each end ($$$ to keep those guys paid) a skidder and 1 guy is pretty cheap.




Well take a look at the turn times on a yarder, say an average of 6 minutes landing and back, each turn is about 1/4 of a log load, thats a load every 1/2 hour, or 16 loads a day without any issues. 

Sure it takes a crew of 6 or so to set one up, and about half a day to make it look right, plus a day or two to prepare the landing. Which from my own experience it takes a day or two to get a skidder landing up and ready as well, unless you like having trucks stuck in the mud...

Can yer skidder and a 2 man crew even get close to this kind of production? I know I can't.

Not to mention the steepness of the ground here and where yarders are common, trying to drive a skidder or even a cat over the edge of most yarder units is a little like suicide by darwin, every thing is all fine and good until you realize you have no way of turning and the ass end is on its way over the front.

To put things in perspective while driving a logging road out here, you and look out the window of a standard truck and not see ground, you can look down out of said window and still not see ground, you can drive with yer tires halfway over the side and still not see ground... its ****ing steep, and through the generations we've nearly cut all of it...


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## KiwiBro (Dec 29, 2014)

Would be keen to see this being used in a real-world scenario. There are just too many questions unanswered with the demo video. I doubt anyone spending the money they are asking for these things wants to be an early adopter crash test dummy on the bleeding edge of the product's lifespan. But, if they want to cut me a great deal to test/prove it amongst NZ's wall of wood, I think I can find the money for the shipping to NZ and that's about it.


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## slowp (Dec 29, 2014)

A Koller picture with arriving turn.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 29, 2014)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I've never understood logging with a yarder.
> 
> First time I had ever seen/heard of it was on Ax Man. Seems like 90% of what they are logging could be done with a feller bunch and skidder much quicker?
> Figure in all the setup time and only being able to yard 2-3 logs at a time, plus needed a chocker setter at each end ($$$ to keep those guys paid) a skidder and 1 guy is pretty cheap.


Yarder ground can be conventionally logged , that's when we say "they roaded the **** out of that place"
Sometimes conventional loggers go a bit outside there optimal zone, well, so do yarder crews, but they can be far superior to conventional in many steep (or sensitive) conditions. Really nice to work around.


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## 1270d (Dec 29, 2014)

Just out of curiosity, can someone tell me what the timber volume is per acre in the northwest? On an average site. ( I know this is broad). Just comparing for fun, the best yield I have experienced was just about 70 cord to the acre.


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## slowp (Dec 29, 2014)

I can't answer that. It makes my head explode. The limit used to be 10mbf per acre to make a viable timber sale. That figure has dropped also. The volume per acre CUT drops but folks keep buying the timber sales. Neither of those is the volume of all the trees per acre. I'd guess we average somewhere around 20mbf per acre? Maybe more? That's up here and would be all second growth plantations. Over on the coast, you'd get more--they have better sites. 

Where's Nathan when we need him!

5mbf roughly = 10 cords.

I seem to recall hearing about units with 100mbf per acre in them during the days of the old growth cutting.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 30, 2014)

Took a gander at a current DNR bid for Skagit county, its 100 acres and aprox. 3318 mbf, or 33,180 bf per acre, or what 6636 cords of fire wood total? This particular sale is sorta middle of the road for the sales currently listed, some had more, much more, some had less


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## slowp (Dec 30, 2014)

I know of some beautiful second growth that would exceed my guestimate, but then there are the junky areas where the soils aren't so good and the elevation is higher where the volume would be less.
There is a stand next to the Cispus Environmental Learning Center that is to die for. It'll stay that way too until it burns up.


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## Humptulips (Dec 30, 2014)

slowp said:


> I can't answer that. It makes my head explode. The limit used to be 10mbf per acre to make a viable timber sale. That figure has dropped also. The volume per acre CUT drops but folks keep buying the timber sales. Neither of those is the volume of all the trees per acre. I'd guess we average somewhere around 20mbf per acre? Maybe more? That's up here and would be all second growth plantations. Over on the coast, you'd get more--they have better sites.
> 
> Where's Nathan when we need him!
> 
> ...


 
I logged a small FS unit that had 600,000 on 2 1/2 acres. Times have changed.




northmanlogging said:


> Is it just me or does it seem like there are a few to many lines wiggling through that carriage? Not that having the haulback up and out of the way isn't a bad thing, but ya don't always need a haulback.
> 
> 9mm, is a bit smaller than 3/8" (.354 vs .375) though it will probably work for a skidding line, it will wear out quickly. From the looks of the video they where dragging what 20 footers one at a time? maybe a little longer? If thats the max it will pull... its not worth the tires its riding on.
> 
> One of the mid sized kollers k500 series would out do it all day.


 
The thing would be only be good for thinning and if the skidding line is smaller then 3/8 I'm not sure it would pass muster.
The whole thing with the haulback going through the carriage seems just stupid to me. Looks like a snafu in the making.
You're correct about not needing the haulback mostly. Almost all thinning shows are shotgun shows.
Here's a nice skidder show for you.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 30, 2014)

Wow 70-100 cords per acre!
Pulled logs from a land clearing job last week, about 3 acres and we got 25 cords. Real nice wood though, I saved a few birch to make moldings for my bathrooms when I remodel later this winter.


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## slowp (Dec 30, 2014)

Here's what the little Thunderbird yarder was bringing in. This would have made nice skidder ground, and had been logged that way in the first place, but a federal judge ruled that no ground based equipment was to be used. A little portion had to be downhilled.


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## 2dogs (Dec 31, 2014)

The company I worked for bought this well used Koller. All the parts we had to order showed up in a few days. It is a long way from Slovenia to NZ if something breaks.


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## 2dogs (Dec 31, 2014)

This probably a somewhat smaller load than your prospective yarder will be able to handle.


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## KiwiBro (Dec 31, 2014)

2dogs said:


> It is a long way from Slovenia to NZ if something breaks.


 Aint that the truth, but I haven't the $ to buy something like that anyway, and if ever I do in the future, by that time something else will be available no doubt. Here in NZ the issue of service and parts support is critical with any offshore made gear. I'll take a risk and buy from overseas if it's solid gear with a proven history and/or it won't break the bank waiting a week or two for parts that can't be bodged here in the meantime.

Have been looking at a framesaw for cutting cants from off my sawmill but there is no local distributor, the closest is in Aussie and I've had bad experiences with some machinery sellers across the ditch in Aussie when it came time to stand behind their product, and the machine and parts (Aussie dealer doesn't stock all the parts, and doesn't even stock the machine - it's indented and drop shipped straight to customers) are made in Sweden. Lots of red flags and the price of the gear doesn't come close to making up for the risks. So that's the end of that idea.


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