# Briggs and Stratton Vanguard 35hp gas.



## SinglerM

Hi there,

Has anyone heard much about the Briggs Vanguard 35hp engine?
It's seems a worthwhile choice over the lombardini diesel.
This is assuming a choice between equippiing a Carlton SP4012:

Vanguard 35(gas) vs. Lombardini (diesel)
Duradisk vs. standard cutter wheel

The Vanguard is about $1,400 less than the Lombardini. very close in Torque. Briggs being more well known in the U.S., availablity of parts or service might be a deciding factor. The cost savings allow the upgrade to dura disk as well.
Long term reliability is a concern...the vanguard is made in Japan, so it may not be much of an issue. 

Less vibration and better cutter effiency have me leaning heavily toward the duradisk.
I was just curious to hear any feedback on the Vanguard or comparisons to the Lombardini.
If any experienced owner or operator would be willing to share their opinion, it would be greatly appreciated. 

Any long term updates or reviews on the dura disk would be great as well. I know they've been out for awhile...maybe time will have had a chance to tell on whether the dura disk and the more expensive teeth are worth the extra cost.

My thoughts so far are to get a Vanguard 35/Dura disk equipped Carlton SP4012.

I was going to purchase this awhile back,but it took longer than expected to get my finances squared away. Now it's decision time, purchase to be made mid-October.umpkin2:  

Thanks again.

Regards,
Mitch


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## sawinredneck

I will catch it for this, but you couldn't hardley shove a briggs up my backside anymore!!!! The Kohlers are very closely priced and a better motor, but spend a little more and get a Honda or Kawasaki, longevity!!!!
Briggs parts are getting pricier all the time and the motors qaulity is going down!!!
Don't want a deisel, cool, but I can't in good faith recomend a Briggs anymore
Andy


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## SinglerM

*Diesel.*

Hi Sawinredneck,

I'm not opposed to a diesel. It's most likely the better choice. The guy I've been talking to at Carlton, suggested it as an alternative. He mentioned that they've been selling about 80% of their 4012's with the Vanguard engine, and haven't had any maintenance problems.
So I've been weighing the options, the Vanguard is $1,400 less also.
A new replacement Vanguard engine is $2,300 from other places online. I checked into that also. I'll be spending the money in a couple of weeks, so I'm still gathering more information.
The Kohler model that they offer is their cheapest option, but it's sort of underpowered for that grinder from what I've heard.
It's the same one they have on thier push grinder, so I won't get that engine. At least not on the 4012.
Is your opinion of Briggs and Stratton just in general, or on the Vanguard's in particular? I think they developed the Vanguard in 2004.

Thanks again.

Mitch


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## sawinredneck

My opinion is of all the Briggs and Straton motors. They used to be a good comany, but like so many others, it is taking the easy path. Make them cheap and sell a lot of them. Don't need longevity, just instant sales. They do not manufatcture an engine with a cast iron sleeve anymore!!! Cast rings, aluminum cylinder, tell me how long that will last? Can you bore it out and get new parts, maybe, but for how long? It's getting so you can't even buy standard rings and pistons for the older motors. It's crazy!!! I avoid them like the plauge!!!!
Andy


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## gasman

I don't know about on the 35hp range but in the 25hp range the new Briggs Vanguard motors are considered excellent. Better than Kohler but not quite as good as the Japanese. My knowledge is only from subcompact tractor shopping. Briggs may have had a glich in quality a few years ago but now is considered far better than Kohler in the 20-30hp range. Again I don't really know abou that particular motor, but my take home point would be quality can change rapidly and I would want to know the rep of a motor over the past year or two and not 5 years ago. I might talk to some guys who work on the motors.


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## sawinredneck

I must admit that my info on the new ones is about five years old, and I will admit when wrong. I might be now!
I just walked away from them after some bad experiances, even had some newer ones I had to work on that the [email protected] Knows all (literally) dealer had never even heard of!!! This Lady, yes Lady, has forgoten more about [email protected] then all of us put together ever knew!!! They are leaning towards dumping them, pulling the minimum parts order, gotta have this and that crap on a dealer that has been around longer than I have been alive!
Sorry, vneting my anger over a lot of companies doing stupid stuff on [email protected], they are not the only ones I know. But why throw away a good built up reputation, never will understand it. Ok, off of my soapbox.(feeling like the guy in Spaces video)
Andy


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## SinglerM

*Briggs Vanguard...made in Japan.*



gasman said:


> I don't know about on the 35hp range but in the 25hp range the new Briggs Vanguard motors are considered excellent. Better than Kohler but not quite as good as the Japanese. My knowledge is only from subcompact tractor shopping. Briggs may have had a glich in quality a few years ago but now is considered far better than Kohler in the 20-30hp range. Again I don't really know abou that particular motor, but my take home point would be quality can change rapidly and I would want to know the rep of a motor over the past year or two and not 5 years ago. I might talk to some guys who work on the motors.



I believe the Vanguard engines are made in Japan. This is one of the reasons that I'm considering getting one instead of the Lombardini diesel. here's an article from 2004 about the vanguard engines:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FZX/is_1_70/ai_112686547

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it.

Later,
Mitch


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## Bigstumps

They are made in Japan. Briggs - Diahatsu joint venture. I am sure Briggs builds some junk, but it seems everybody has a cheap line that end up on Walmart mowers.


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## 1CallLandscape

*Briggs are junk*

just my personal experiences that the older briggs of any hp are better as everybody else has said. I've changed all of my engines to honda, why you ask, well: they are quieter, easy to find parts/ dealers for , easier starting cold and hot, cheaper to run ( less fuel) and VERY DURABLE. 

as far as diesels go they will offer better low end torque and they also are better if you are runnig them for a longer time ( ex. a very large stump grinding job)


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## SinglerM

*Still reading about them.*

I'm still reading about the Briggs Vanguard 35 HP engine. Deciding on it vs. the Lombardini diesel. Here's another article on the Vanguard being used on a Rayco stump grinder. There might be others out there interested.

http://www.commercialpower.com/disp...d=76419&filename=/DP_RaycoVangard_Reprint.pdf

Take care,
Mitch


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## SinglerM

*If the Briggs vanguard became the choice.....*

Assuming that the Vanguard became the engine picked...
I hadn't considered this before, but......


The Carlton SP4012 with Briggs Vanguard is $16,200
The Rayco RG1635 with Briggs Vanguard is $????

The Carlton weighs about 300lbs. more?

Does anyone out there know of the major differences? I believe the Rayco is quite a bit cheaper...not sure the exact price.

Vermeer offers the 35HP vanguard engine as an option on thier 352, as well. I'm not interested in that model. But it wight be promising that Carlton, Rayco and Vermeer all are offering this engine.

Man this can get confusing.
Consider me bewildered:bang:  

Thanks or any opinions.

Later,
Mitch


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## SinglerM

*Another article.*

Here's another article it's on the 27HP vanguard. All I'm able to find are press release articles. The Vanguard may still be too new to have much to say about it, positive or negative.
Not enough to base a decision on. Other than Carlton, Rayco or other companies that use the Vanguard engine saying they've had customers report problems.
The guy at carlton said that they haven't had any problems reported. Recently they've sold around 80% of the SP4012 models with the 35hp Vanguard. The SP4012 is their most popular model according to their web site. Maybe time will tell after the vanguard engines have been in service for awhile.

The Rayco salesman, didn't really seem to know much about the Vanguard 35HP, which they use on their 1635 model, so I couldn't get much from him about it at all. I'll call back, Monday and talk to someone else.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92527042.html

Thanks again for all the opinions.

Regards,
Mitch


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## gasman

Speaking out of my own research and limited experience I would guess the motor would be fine. I think the more important question will be the other components of the machine you choose. I unfortunately can't help you with that. If you are not comfortable with the motor I do know of a small motor whiz on a non-arborist forum I could reference to you if you would like to try to get his opinion.


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## SinglerM

*Hi gasman.*

From all the reading I've been doing, I'll be going with the Carlton SP4012. I'll be equipped with:
Briggs and Stratton Vanguard 35HP gas engine.
Dura Disk cutter wheel.

I haven't been able to find anything bad at all about the Briggs Vanguard engine. Being a machinist by trade, the dura disk makes a lot of sense, I'm familiar with Sandvick, a lot of the cutting tools I've used for lathes and milling machines are made by them.
It does seem that there are not too many reports from stump grinder owners here on AS.
In January, I'll do a side by side comparison with my friends Stumpgrinder in Mississippi. He has a diesel SP4012 with the regular cutter wheel. I'll try and video the diferences between the two cutter wheels.

My thought is that the fact that the Vanguard is being used by Carlton, Rayco, Vermeer is a good sign. Made in Japan doesn't hurt at all either.opcorn: 

I'll be ordering it Oct. 1st  Finally! I was going to do this a couple of months ago...but I hit a snag. 

Any opinions from an engine man would be good.

Thanks for all the help.


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## 166

Is this 35HP Vanguard Big Block air cooled or liquid cooled? We have sold the 35HP Liquid's & the 31HP Air Cooled engines in some of our equipment and they have been very strong so far.

Briggs & Stratton sells all different grades of engines. Everything from the throwaway 5HP on a push mower to the Vanguard "Big Block" 25-35HP engines & the 3 Cylinder liquid cooled Gas & diesel engines in the 23-34HP range.

The Big Block and liquid cooled engines are built by Daihatsu (Toyota Industrial)

Steve


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## SinglerM

*Vanguard 35 HP air cooled.*

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your perspective,
The specifications listing online and in their catalog doesn't say if the Vanguard is air or liquid cooled.
In the catalog there is a picture of a SP4012 with the Vanguard engine, it's definately air cooled.
online there is a picture of an SP4012, the engine on that one has a radiator, but the picture doesn't specify which engine it is.
I'll have to call Carlton and ask. They offer three different engines: 
27HP Kohler Command gas. (I believe it's air cooled)
35HP Briggs-Vanguard gas. (catalog picture shows air-cooled) They may have 
offered each one at different times.
28.7HP Lombardini diesel. (I think this one is liquid cooled.)

I'm sure I'll be happy with the Vanguard. 


Regards,
Mitch


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## Bigstumps

The Vanguard Carlton demoed to me was Air-Cooled. The machine has a lot better ground drive than my Rayco, no chain under it and a lot faster. The Carlton looks to be better built but I haven't really had any troubles with my Rayco - of course I don't use it that much, only when absolutely necessary.


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## Curbside

I'm using the Dura Disk by Sandvic and I love it. I use it on my Vermeer grinders. It cuts fast and often grinds the chips into very small chips. It takes a huge bite and the teeth are fast and easy to change. The cost of teeth are basically the same as Vermeer teeth and last a long time.


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## juststumps

Curbside said:


> I'm using the Dura Disk by Sandvic and I love it. I use it on my Vermeer grinders. It cuts fast and often grinds the chips into very small chips. It takes a huge bite and the teeth are fast and easy to change. The cost of teeth are basically the same as Vermeer teeth and last a long time.



curbside, what model ,models, are you using... and what benifits do you see by changing to the dura disk??? js


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## ROLLACOSTA

The 35hp Briggs is in fact a Diahatsu built and designed engine,I have one on my 352 stump cutter,it's a great engine like all Japanese engines..

I wouldn't touch a Briggs built engine with a barge pole..


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## SinglerM

*Vanguard from Japan.*



ROLLACOSTA said:


> The 35hp Briggs is in fact a Diahatsu built and designed engine,I have one on my 352 stump cutter,it's a great engine like all Japanese engines..
> 
> I wouldn't touch a Briggs built engine with a barge pole..



Hi Rollacosta,

I'll be buying my SP4012 with the 35HP Vanguard. The fact that it's a Diahatsu manufactured engine is a good selling point for me, I'm confident that it'll be reliable.
Compared to the Lombardini diesel tha's offered by Carlton as an alternative, the Vanguard is $1,400 less. The Lombardini brand is not well known to me. I couldn't really find any information on it. Although, my friend owns a SP4012 with the Lombardini and he's very happy with it.
I'll go with the Vanguard, however.

I'll do the same as Curbside, and get mine outfitted with the Dura-disk. I've read many good things about it. It makes sense to buy it new at the time of machine purchase.

I've compared the Carlton to the Rayco. I believe for my needs, the Carlton is probably the better built machine overall. I've really liked dealing with them on the phone so far. The Carlton has a 30" tongue extension, to advance the cutter wheel into the stump, which the Rayco doesn't have. Carlton has a hydraulic drive system, also. Someone here mentioned the Rayco having a chain drive of some sort.

While talking to the Rayco rep. I mentioned to him that I was comparing the Rayco to the Carlton and would be making my purchase in a week. I mentioned that the 300 pound weight difference between the Carlton and Rayco was probably due to a combination of Carlton's tongue extension assembly, the hydraulic drive system and their use of heavier gauge metal in the overall construction.
He said to me that the Carlton Hydraulic drive system didn't have any advantages over their drive system, that it was only more expensive. He added that Carlton's tongue extension wasn't worth having. He even offered to have a heavy metal plate welded to the bottom of the Rayco grinder :jawdrop: (I'm referring to their Super Jr. model with the 35HP Vanguard) Then it would weigh as much as the Carlton, but be cheaper, and not be outfitted with the Hydraulic drive, and tongue extension which weren't worth having, in his opinion.:jester: Just let him know and he'd get that plate welded on, and have it shipped to me A.S.A.P. 
I'm not kidding, this was all suggested to me to get me to buy a Rayco. Some salesmen will try any angle I guess 
Have any Rayco owners out there went with the optional steel plate welded to the bottom of the machine? 
Needless to say, I'll be getting the Carlton. 

I'm looking foward to getting a smooth running, reliable stumpgrinder.
It's been extremely helpful to be able to read all of the experienced opinions here.
Thanks again everybody.

Later,
Mitch


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## Curbside

Just Stumps

I'm using them on a Vermeer SC60TX and a 252.

The benefits are they grind faster, the teeth are way more durable, the disk is heavier and carries more momentum, chips are smaller, you can take bigger bites, the teeth are well priced, and the biggest is the ease of changing teeth. It takes seconds. Also you don't have to worry about lefts, rights and centers. The teeth all look the same except you have shorts and longs. The longs go in the side pockets and the shorts go on the leading edge. You use more shorts then longs but its still the same socket size.

I hated changing teeth with the pro series teeth as I would break sockets bolts, strip bolts etc. The Dura Disk is simple.


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## Doctor Dave

35 hp?!

I worked for a tree service in OR in '87/88 that had a home made stump grinder with a 454 v8! I don't know how many horses it had, but probably a tad more. It was heavy; on one job, we got the skidder with the grinder stuck in the mud, and then another skidder stuck trying to pull out the first one. I frankly was afraid of the thing and never got near it. The operator was the only one that regularly wore his PPE---which included some hockey gear.


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## SinglerM

*Thanks Curbside.*



Curbside said:


> Just Stumps
> 
> I'm using them on a Vermeer SC60TX and a 252.
> 
> The benefits are they grind faster, the teeth are way more durable, the disk is heavier and carries more momentum, chips are smaller, you can take bigger bites, the teeth are well priced, and the biggest is the ease of changing teeth. It takes seconds. Also you don't have to worry about lefts, rights and centers. The teeth all look the same except you have shorts and longs. The longs go in the side pockets and the shorts go on the leading edge. You use more shorts then longs but its still the same socket size.
> 
> I hated changing teeth with the pro series teeth as I would break sockets bolts, strip bolts etc. The Dura Disk is simple.



That's the best summary so far on the Dura disk. There are only 8 short teeth on the dura disk for the 4012. Since the shorts are the ones that need replacing more often, and the fact that they last longer....I think the added cost of the Dura disk is negligible compared to regular teeth.
Faster changes is a plus also.


Thanks again, Curbside.

Later,
Mitch


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## km stumps

*dura disc*

you cant plunge cut with dura disc thats no good for road side work when paiving is all around the stump wheel wears out after 900 hours , should last life time of stump cutter for the price the ask, lead teeth mount wear so cant tighten up other than that it does agood job


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## Curbside

KM Stumps


I don't understand what you are saying that it can't plunge cut and it will wear out after 900 hours. Maybe your talking about some other kind of disk or maybe you've never seen one? It will plunge straight down or side to side. It will rip through pavement like it's loose sandy soil. My disks so far show no wear at all. I would think that the disk will last as long or longer as it is double the size of the original disk on a Vermeer.


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## km stumps

*sandvic disc*

yes i have seen a dura disc 2 spoke to sandvic about fitting one to a vemmeer 252 , was given tel no of a large contractor in north of england spoke to owner for 15 minutes on duradisc told me they had run them non stop on a vemeer 252 , that they were very fast , easy to change teeth ,cut faster than most other teeth, that they would not be going back , that with every good idea there was a down side ,one was you had go to depth of cut at beginning of the stump the dura disc did not like to bottom out, also after 900 hours there was alot of wear around the lead bolts or teeth and could not tighten them properly . if you grind concrete slabs like sand you should not be let loose with a stump grinder.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## PES+

*Correction Please*

Daihatsu is NOT Toyota industrial it is a completely separate company which has entered joint ventures with several other companies. 
The new Kohlers (singles at present) are made by Yamaha

Regarding V-twin aircooled I would take a vanguard over a Honda in a heartbeat 
opcorn:


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## Bigstumps

Daihatsu is owned by Toyota.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FZX/is_4_69/ai_100727372

See 1967 in the following article

http://www.daihatsu.com/ir/

Toyota owns 51%

http://www.hoovers.com/free/co/fact...en=PAID&cm_cat=OVR&cm_pla=CO3&cm_ite=daihatsu

No correction needed!


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## PES+

*Show me a Daihatsu engine in a Toyota Industrial product and I'll drop it*

51% is simply a controlling vote and the largest stockholder

I am not trying to split hairs but I do not see it that way?


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## Bigstumps

Pretty much if you own 51% you can run it any way you like. Elect all the board members, appoint the officers, run the company. That is why companies hold 51% not 49%.

You don't find Ford engines in Jaguars - doesn't mean they don't own them.


:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:


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## PES+

*Again*

Question Show me a Daihatsu engine in a Toyota Industrial product and I'll drop it opcorn:


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## PES+

*Business is different in Japan*

The two companies were under one keiretsu and the 51% controlling share was a fairly recent development.
The buy out has to do with production globally of road vehicles and I would not be suprised if they sold off the small engine division of Daihatsu as both Toyota Motor and Toyota Industrial show little if any interest in that market segment but who knows?


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## stump-dude

have you thought of going with the new engine option, the 33hp kubota diesel? heard that its a bit top heavy? does anyone know how they handle? cant get a demo since the dealer doesnt hav one in stock yet. also,does anyone have feedback on the new 4x4 sp4012?

DYNAMIC STUMP GRINDING INC.


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## Cam501

I don't know jack about the actuallequipment you guys are using to be honest, but as for the engines, we've had very few problems from any of the briggs or briggs/daihatsu engines, both gas and diesel. We don't deal much with the 35 hp but we do a fair amount with the 31hp gas, 26hp diesel, and 31 hp turbo diesel with solid track records. Everyone blasts briggs becuase they make some kinda crappy engines that are extremely affordable AND well built higher end engines. Whereas honda and kawasaki and even kohler to some extent primarily build only high quality engines. People tend to assume that if 1 of your products is junk than all of your products are. It's such a narrow and and ignorant view to have in my opinion. We have a lot of customers who base their opinion of briggs on one crappy product they bought in 1991 and that overrides anyting else that you can tell them


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## PES+

Having worked on both the Daihatsu Briggs and the Kubota I prefer the Daihastsu

And yes a lot of people still recall the briggs singles of years ago with updraft carbs that could be a bear to start. The Honda took over a huge part of the market due to superior starting in all weather. All the other engine manufacturers have long since caught up in that department


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