# limb walking....



## budroe69moni (Jan 23, 2003)

i'm finishing up a live oak job tommorrow
and i've got a few questions. i've got to 
work 2 more leads that start out about
30' up the trunk and are about 35-40' long.
i've been doing alot of limb walking lately but 
i'm stumped. the leads are level for the 1st 
10' but after that, they curve up at a 45 degree
angle for the next 15 feet before leveling out 
again. w/ my T.I.P. up as far as i can go, 
close to the center of the tree, how do i walk
up these leads?????? i know that i can do the 
"shiney-hiney" but i want to improve my limb
walking techniques. HELP!!!!
thanks boys,
budroe


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## treeman82 (Jan 24, 2003)

Spencer, I am not familiar with the branch structure of live oaks, but is using a re-direct an option for you? If not, could you use a dead manned lanyard to help you get up those 45* parts? I really think though that using a re-direct will be your best bet... either that, or moving your TIP to different sides of the tree. Possibly a good reason to carry an in tree throw line???


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 24, 2003)

Try this in-tree SRT technique.

If there are lateral limbs close to you off the limb you're pruning, you can use a noose knot or some other monkey fist variation to toss the end of your clmibing line over. Flip the end back to yourself and tie it off with a running bowlie or equal. Make the tie off low, where you will return later. Now, use this as the srt line and keep your Doubled Rope too as a second tie in and balance. work your way up the limb and do your work. You could either reset your TIP on the limb or just back out the way you came in. If you use a Gri-Gri, Rocker or other similar tool all you have to do is rappel back out. Otherwise you have to choose another sliding friction hitch to descend on the SRT line.

Are you familiar with the M-style redirect that Mark Chisholm worked out? Its too late to describe. You could do a search here and T*eeB*zz

Tom


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## heartland (Jan 24, 2003)

Budroe - I have same problem with a Cottonwood in my yard. 

tm82 - In my case, there is no place for redirect...... simply because the limbs are way out there by themselves with no other limbs closeby.

I've thought about dropping a line about mid-way (it could hang from another branch, above the one I'm trying to walk). But even that does not provide good triangulation for balance, etc.....

Another thing is to girth-hitch a loop runner at the 45 degree part of the limb and use it as a foothold/step. Then continue advancing with more loop runners until you reach a part that levels out and can be walked. Using the lanyard throughout this process provides good stability. I've done this before and while time consuming, it does work.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 24, 2003)

One way I will go about this is to go along the side of the branch and put most of my weight on my rope. This is where good climbing boots come in, the grippier the sole the less effort put in. Coarser barked treeshelp to. Look for nubs and nodes and anything else that will afford a better grip with hand or boot.

Use your fliplineor tail end as an assist, throwing up over branches every few feet. 

My style of climbing is sorta like mountaineering aid climbing, I will use my gear as much as possible to help me up. 

Maybe get a rope over a branch, tie a hitch, pull myself up some, advance the hitch...


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## Oxman (Jan 24, 2003)

With extra ropes & throwlines, could a tie in be set from the top of the tree by throwing sideways? This may involve having the ground crew assist with retreival of the tail on the far side.

The transfer between three trees in this forest involved some rope tossing from climber to climber. I believe the distance was 35-40' apart. A third tree out of view to the left had a third climber. All 3 of us converged in the tree my foot is standing on. 






Read the story under the caption "Below:", at: (Click here)

A traverse can sometimes be best done as a team effort. One time I was plumb tuckered out during a game of TREE TAG by attempting to get into a third tree with a low tie-in. For some strange reason, my tie-ins are not quite as high as those who can place their ropes on skinny limbs (I wonder why?). As the realization of my impending failure emerged, my descriptive comment to Dan Kraus (seen donning his ascenders)was, "Traversus Interruptus". He immediately fired back his own interpretation of the quitters' move, "Traversus Groundonlyus".

Predicting this kind of thing ahead of time can sometimes expedite the process later in the climb. Using a long pole saw or grapnel to snag the far end of the line is an effective technique, although sometimes hard on the ropes.

I have been in the center of a clump of five trees, where this process helped a lot. Three could be done from one tie in by swinging over. The other two had their lines set by tossing a throwball over the top, and letting it run to the ground on the far side of the stem. The half-full bag with the remaining line was then tossed straight down, directly between the tree I was in and the tree I was going over to. This involved two throwlines in two separate bags. By the way, the ground could not be seen, because of the thickness of the foliage, and the height, which was less than 200' tall. The throw lines are about 400' long.

If the effort to return to the ground, set a line, then re-ascend is greater than cumbersome moves in the tree, then cumbersome it is. It's our own effort. Lets make the most of it


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 24, 2003)

For your particular scenario, Spencer, I gotta agree with John Paul. I constantly use my lifeline as a 'third leg' to keep my balance as I walk out the far side of a lead.


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## budroe69moni (Jan 24, 2003)

the problem is this tree is so wide open 
that there are no branches above these 
leads. theres nothing to tie into so i can
walk the "far side" of these branches. the 
only T.I.P. is on the other side of the tree
in line w/ these branches. 

i've been leaning out againt my line and 
i'm able to get out on the branch until 
the upword turn starts. i stopped by 
earlier this afternoon and got "stuck"
again! 

i'm about to use heartland's idea w/ the 
loop-runners to get by this upward section.

any other thought would be greatly appreciated!!!!

thank,
budroe


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 24, 2003)

Is this what it looks like?


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## budroe69moni (Jan 24, 2003)

*wow!!!!*

hey mike,
that's pretty darn close!!!!!
there's not quite that much height
in the top of the tree but you pretty
much nailed it!!!! 
talk to me brother,
budroe


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 24, 2003)

You got the idea, Mike. Love your artistry BTW. But don't quit your day job just yet.  

This is very common in the big, spreading live oaks we have down here. Typical large live oak is 70'-80' tall but can have a DBH of 4' and a spread of 120' or more. I cut my teeth on trees like this and used every fiber of my being to get out some of those leads. I can't truly describe techniques, as I've used whatever I could to grip however I could. Tossing the tail of your rope over a fork out ahead of you and pulling on that as you let out your lifeline is a good one. Getting a tiny foothold on a bump in the trunk with your toe, knee, elbow, forehead or whatever works are things I've also done. Sometimes using a loop runner for a foothold can be a wonderful time saver, just pull it off on your way back to the trunk.

All I can say is that you are tackling fairly difficult trees for someone with only a year of climbing and you seem to be taking it in stride. You sound like a true natural and I can promise it will get easier with time and practice. I've laid awake at nights playing over a difficult situation I had that day until I worked it out in my mind. Then the next time I had a similar situation, it wasn't as hard.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 24, 2003)

Here's one thought:


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## budroe69moni (Jan 24, 2003)

*picture's worth a thousand words.....*

intresting!!!!
set a stationary line and "pull" myself up said
lead. any tips on feeding my life line through
my distal??????
budroe 
p.s. thanks mike


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## Joe (Jan 24, 2003)

I don't know about strength of the tree you're doing. It's been my experience in the past with trees that have low large limbs like I think being described that a limb of significant size can hold all of a climbers weight at the tips. If this is the case, then another approach may be to set a line on the tips of the limb that needs to be pruned from the ground. Then ascend to the tips of that limb from the ground. The other posters recommended some options that could still be used along with what I'm suggesting. 

I scanned this thread quickly so some1 else may have already suggested this approach. If so, my apology for the repetition.

Joe


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## Kevin (Jan 24, 2003)

or ...


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## Rob Murphy (Jan 24, 2003)

*Possable solution*

Firstly I would try to get a higher TIP by using an adjustable false crotch. By looping in a series of smaller branches you spread the load and are able to get that higher TIP .
Secondly I use redirects or re tie in to the new leader I sometimes have moved my TIP many times in a tree , nothing to be ashamed of.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 24, 2003)

Mike illustrated the idea that I had. Anchor the end to something and use an ascender to move up.

Here's another solution. I used this one time when I had to lower myself onto a broken tree. I didn't want to be in the tree in case it rolled or broke. By dropping in from above I was clear.

This is the rope path:

Anchor on the ground
Up through a secure crotch in the tips of the target limb. Follow the same route as MM's "anchor" line.
Through a crotch high in the tree near your main TIP
Back down to the ground
Secure the end to some kind of friction device ie: munter, gri gir, PAW, etc.

Let the second line slack down to the climber. Tie a mid-line loop knot like an alpine butterfly. Clip in a biner with a pulley and add a second climbing rope. This will become a floating false crotch. If you were to have both ends of the rope in friction devices you could move the FFC back and forth to a perfect, overhead position. Snug up the line and use the FFC as a double tie in.

If you could run the rope through another nearby tree you might be able to have a more horizontal, and maybe even higher, line.

Think of this along the same lines as setting up a zipline or Tyrolean traverse.

Has anyone else ever used etriers? These are sets of ladder steps made from webbing that bigwall climbers use. I made up a four step single out of some webbing. Only used it a few times.

Dave Spencer showed me a setup where they used an extension ladder strapped to the side of a trunk as a gin pole for the climber. The top of the tree had blown out years ago so it looked like the one in MM's illustration. Before anyone does this you need to do some research. Ladders aren't built to be used in this manner. All of the usual cautions and disclaimers belong here.

Are we making up complicated solutions when maybe the use of a long extension ladder might be the best solution?

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *For your particular scenario, Spencer, I gotta agree with John Paul....*



That musta hurt to admit


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## d kraus (Jan 25, 2003)

There's a lot to be said for putting a little slack in your line and crawling up the tough spots with every available part of your body, then flipping in and setting a quick redirect while you work in that section.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by d kraus _
> *There's a lot to be said for putting a little slack in your line and crawling up the tough spots with every available part of your body, then flipping in and setting a quick redirect while you work in that section. *


Yup, you just hope no one is pointing a camera at you while you do this.  I've pulled a few feet of slack in my lifeline, then just held the doubled rope in one hand and let it slip through as I pulled myself up with my other hand (and elbow, knee, right toe, left ear and any other part of my body that I could use).

JPS- I've been agreeing with you a lot lately. Must be something I ate, might need to see a doctor to make sure I'm ok.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 25, 2003)

I just thought of another technique I've used but I haven't seen it mentioned specifically. If you have a long enough lanyard or flipline, you can sometimes flip it under a limb out ahead of you in such a way as that the clip swings up and back to you. Catch the clip and either use the doubled rope to pull yourself out or clip it back on the flipline and choke it back to the limb. Then you can use the single line to pull yourself out while letting slack out of your lifeline. 
Think about what angle you are in relation to your lifeline at all times. Think about how you would turn your body or control your swing if you were to slip off the lead. Once in a while you may slip off and you need to be prepared so you don't slam back into the trunk. If you pass the point where you would be safe swinging back on your lifeline, then your lifeline is no longer your primary support. Determine where that spot is on every limb walk and secure yourself accordingly.

Glad to see you asking these types of questions, Budroe. Climb safe!


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## mikecross23 (Jan 26, 2003)

This is a little off topic, but Monkeypuzzle took me to the biggest live oak I've ever seen. It measured 25' dbh and the spread was huge! ! ! We played around in it for a while, limb walking, swinging transfers, and just plain monkey'n around. We had a great time.

When I need to get out to the tip of a limb w/ a 45 degree incline, I rely on loop runners. It does take me more time but for me it seems safer and also conserves my energy. A choked loop runner (or 2 or 3 even) provide great handles and foot holds that require me to use less energy to hold on to than the large leader provides. If the slant of the leader is not too great, I've found myself using my lanyard choking the branch and leaning back hard while keeping my feet flat and small stepping upward. It's kind of harry trying to keep your balance on a smaller diameter branch but the lanyard is double wrapped and my life line is taunt so if I were to loose it I would just hang where my conections hold me. I'm not the most efficient limb walker and I'm sure that comes w/ time, so until that time comes, I'll take is slow and steady! ! !  

Next Saturday Treeclimber 165 is driving through Tallahassee so monkeypuzzle and I are gonna meet him and do some climbing. I can't wait, and hey, I'm sure I'll learn a lot climbin' w/ these two fart smellers, er I mean smart fellers.


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## Oxman (Jan 26, 2003)

> mikecross23: the biggest live oak I've ever seen. It measured 25' dbh and the spread was huge!



Nice size tree !


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## Treeman14 (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mikecross23 _
> *This is a little off topic, but Monkeypuzzle took me to the biggest live oak I've ever seen. It measured 25' dbh and the spread was huge! ! ! *



I think you mean 25' circumference, no? About 8' DBH?


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## monkeypuzzle (Jan 26, 2003)

We didn't get a dbh measurement,but we did get the circumference at just a tad under 25',but she would go somewhere between 8' to 10' diameter.

That is mikecross23 on the left and MP on the right,and don't forget the bigshot. Go buy a bigshot everyone,they work.


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## TREETX (Jan 27, 2003)

Nothing but live oaks here. You can find a 120' spread on a 50' tall tree here.

They are strong, very strong. This ain't no cotton wood.

Being that I would trust my life on a 2" crotch, I would just tie in at the "X" on the pic and go up from the ground. Even better if you can do that and keep the attachment at the original position.

Always hard to say w/out seeing.

.02 Nate


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## mikecross23 (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Treeman14 _
> *I think you mean 25' circumference, no? About 8' DBH?  *



Right on! My mistake


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## Greg (Jan 28, 2003)

It has been mentioned several times about going straight up to your work location, why the limb walk? I find that when working in a live oak it is sometimes much easier to treat it like a bunch of individual trees and do multiple asscents to get the job done. Many big spreading live oaks have way to much spread to try and work from one TIP, and doing all the re-directs that you would need to do is just too time consuming in most cases. I'll be working one side of the tree where we need to remove deadwood or what ever and tell my ground guys in advance that I want a line over "that limb over there" next, that way while I'm working they can throw the bag and have my next line set by the time I'm done on the other side of the tree. Good thing about the live oak is that is is VERY strong and I have no problem working in 2-3in green wood.
Lie oaks are fun rec. climbing trees with the long horizontal limbs you can get a good overhead tie in and limb walk like tarzan somtimes. 
Greg


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## rahtreelimbs (Jan 28, 2003)

I've done the multiple ascents only because of my limited climbing experience. A good friend of mine, who has taught me a few things over the past several years, will use several different TIP's. He gets thru the tree quite well. Maybe I'll reach that point. I use whatever seems to be the easiest.


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 28, 2003)

whats the min. diam. limb that ya'll will tie into on say white oak, red oak, sweat gum and maple???


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## budroe69moni (Jan 29, 2003)

*1st of all, thanks!*

thanks for everyone's help/suggestions 
on how to finish up this live oak!!!! couldn't 
have done it w/out y'all!!! 
here's what i ended up doing......
i set my 1st TIP up as high as i could and 
ran it down by the end of the long lead, 
just past the upward angle of the branch.
i set a 2nd line towards the tip and ascended
on up. once i reached the branch, i set a loop-
runner and clipped into my 1st line. i was able
to "hoist" myself up onto the lead and lean into
my life line and work the tips!!!! what a rush
for me being able to overcome this obstical!!!
i could not have done it w/out the help of 
everyone on this site!!!!!!
thanks again,
budroe


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## mikecross23 (Jan 29, 2003)

Sounds like a good idea budroe! 

So basically you set a second line to get to the ideal redirect. Ascend to that spot and you are already double crotched and or redirected (w/ a loop runner) making it easier to work the tip of the branch. Then when you're done you only have to come back in off the branch to do the rest of the tree. 

Thanks for telling us how it went!


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 29, 2003)

Man, I love this site and how we can share ideas in order to work safer and more productively! Many times the solution lies in using a combination of techniques. Glad to hear that you thought it out and applied the right combination of techniques for the given situation.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *Man, I love this site and how we can share ideas in order to work safer and more productively! Many times the solution lies in using a combination of techniques. Glad to hear that you thought it out and applied the right combination of techniques for the given situation.
> *




Agree 100%


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## ORclimber (Jan 29, 2003)

What is a loop runner?


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## Stumper (Jan 29, 2003)

A loop runner is a stitched webbing sling.

Dittos on the immense value of this site.I still keep learning things after 30 years in the industry.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 29, 2003)

*Loop runners*

Here's the Sherrill page for slings and loop runners. Most people are referring to the third item from the top of the page when they say 'loop runner'.
http://www.wtsherrill.com/SHTML/sli.shtml#lp


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## ORclimber (Jan 29, 2003)

Thanks for the enlightenment. 

Agree with you on the value of this site. In one month I have started using distal hitch, purchased big shot and pantin(forgot handled ascender, oops), and learned lots of other techniques I can't wait to try out.


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## heartland (Jan 29, 2003)

budroe,

I'm trying to picture this one.....

Was the 1st line "aligned" with the limb you were working (target limb) or more to the side? 

Was the 2nd line set in the same target limb or above?

Was the loop runner used for foothold or redirect?


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