# This business is weird....



## Nailsbeats (Jan 18, 2012)

So I bid removal of 2 large silver maples today. $1,950 to take down the pair of them and leave the stumps as low as possible, no clean up. 

The one was 7 feet across and 80' tall or better, big wood over the house. classic tight antennae clearance, obstacles everywhere. The second one was the same height 45" across and over 7200v primary power. 2 triplex power lines and 2 cable lines need to come down to do the job, close line needs to come down and the unused small satelite dish too. Move an old junk mower and we are good to go.

Here's the thing, I have zero confidence that I will get this job because of the price, but you seasoned fella's know what it will take. Experience, equipment and the job needs to get done timely to put power back to the tenants. That's that.


Second job I bid today, somebody bids $800, next guy $400 with a bucket. I get the job for $250, it'll take me 1 hour with my saddle, spikes, 1 climb line, 2 saws and a compact car.

What gives, a guy can't get a big job for what it's worth but lands the easy ones easily. This isn't the first time either. Not that I really don't understand, cause if I didn't I might as well get out of business and that ain't happening. It's in my blood.

Just food for thought/conversation.


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## lone wolf (Jan 18, 2012)

Nailsbeats said:


> So I bid removal of 2 large silver maples today. $1,950 to take down the pair of them and leave the stumps as low as possible, no clean up.
> 
> The one was 7 feet across and 80' tall or better, big wood over the house. classic tight antennae clearance, obstacles everywhere. The second one was the same height 45" across and over 7200v primary power. 2 triplex power lines and 2 cable lines need to come down to do the job, close line needs to come down and the unused small satelite dish too. Move an old junk mower and we are good to go.
> 
> ...



We are in a bad bad economy now and will be for a long time people dont have much money is the reason.Just hope you dont get it sounds under priced to me.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 18, 2012)

if you run your operation right you can make some good money cleaning up the easy ones. 

we couldn't go out for a 250.00$ job. anything small we say 550.00 is as low as we can go. or it isn't really worth turning the key. endless its within a few miles of our shop.

we did telephone line clearance all day today did probably close to a half of mile of road we cut everything down within 50 foot of the lines we did it in 4-5 hours with the equipment we have.

was real close 2 AA's house we also don't have to haul anything out so two guys are flagin one in the bucket and one fueling saws and pulling the truck forward.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 18, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> We are in a bad bad economy now and will be for a long time people dont have much money is the reason.Just hope you dont get it sounds under priced to me.



ya the silver maples do sound like a good deal.


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 18, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> ya the silver maples do sound like a good deal.



I don't want to lose the job, kinda chompin at the bit for a couple big thrashers right now, don't want to freak out the customer, but am not naive to what it'll take myself. The perfect tree storm.


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## rymancm (Jan 18, 2012)

Nailsbeats said:


> I don't want to lose the job.......don't want to freak out the customer.



Story of my life...


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2012)

So begins Nails' slow descent into insanity. YAY! Can't wait til you get here! You see your future don't you? You gonna be like me, MDS, X, 101, Murphy... TreeCo is the maddest of us all leaving poor Ropes standing by himself. The best advice I can give is to keep it externalized. Don't internalize whatever you do. That's what got me.


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## treeman82 (Jan 18, 2012)

I just bid an oak tree today. They have several other bids on the table, all around 2,500 - 4,500. I bid 6 in order to NOT get the job.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 18, 2012)

I bid to remove 2 norway spruces for $2400 for complete removals for a landscaper. He got 3 other quotes for theses trees and I was the lowest. The owner gave the job to a guy that bid it for $1000. What is wrong with people.


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I bid to remove 2 norway spruces for $2400 for complete removals for a landscaper. He got 3 other quotes for theses trees and I was the lowest. The owner gave the job to a guy that bid it for $1000. What is wrong with people.



Wait! if you bid 2400 and another guy bid 1000 how are you the lowest? Oh I get it. The " owner" is not the landscrapeire ( that's French for landscaper btw) you handed your bid to.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 18, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Wait! if you bid 2400 and another guy bid 1000 how are you the lowest? Oh I get it. The " owner" is not the landscrapeire ( that's French for landscaper btw) you handed your bid to.



Correct. These two norways are about 3' dia and 75-80' tall. One is grown up around the elec and cable wires too.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jan 18, 2012)

Why be peasants? 

That's my motto....well, one of them anyway.

Nevertheless, I often recall a fine quote from an excellent movie:

_ "Relax pal. First lesson in business is don't get emotional about stocks - it clouds your judgement."_

It's easy to incorporate that into this biz, especially when your batting with the bigger boys and larger project bids start to push 10K on up. 

I'd rather strike out as the high bidder, than strike out as the low.

Call em like you see them, don't second guess em and don't look back...that ain't the way we're going.


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## treemandan (Jan 19, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I bid to remove 2 norway spruces for $2400 for complete removals for a landscaper. He got 3 other quotes for theses trees and I was the lowest. The owner gave the job to a guy that bid it for $1000. What is wrong with people.



Well I am not a fan of overcharging fat cats sending out underpaid crews but Jeez, let that SOB have fun with that one... or die tryin it sounds.


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## treemandan (Jan 19, 2012)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Why be peasants?
> 
> That's my motto....well, one of them anyway.
> 
> ...



Thing is that to say " its in my blood" ( and it is, no doubt about that) and not to get emotional is like some kind of oxymoron.

You see my point?


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## Bigus Termitius (Jan 19, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Thing is that to say " its in my blood" ( and it is, no doubt about that) and not to get emotional is like some kind of oxymoron.
> 
> You see my point?



I do, but I do my best to save it for the job once I get it.


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## Iustinian (Jan 19, 2012)

I love the monster removals as well, for the fun and the challenge -- but lately I'd make more money on a handful of trims than one big removal. Purse strings tighten up in this economy, so you have the customer who has less to spend, and the guys out there who are willing to work for less and less the more desperate they get - its a bad mix thats like a snowball rolling down a snow covered hill, it picks up speed and gets bigger. Obviously theres less disparity in pricing on a trim, and its less money for the customer to come up with compared to the big removals which leave more room for undercutting when your talking about thousands instead of hundreds. 

On this topic, they passed a law in this state that on public projects (like alot of the clearing) the bids MUST be awarded to the lowest "qualified" bidder. Some of the bids we've seen on the clearing projects are near 70% lower than ours, and its crazy to hear how much was "left on the table" - that is to say, the difference between the lowest bid, and the second lowest bid, and sometimes its UNREAL. I'm sure most of you can relate.


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## Sagetown (Jan 19, 2012)

Just guessing, but I have an elderly friend who's been complaining about his large pine trees in his yard fence line overhanging his utility shed, and his neighbor's garage. I'm not a treeman, but went and looked the situation over. To dangerous for an amature like me, and I told him from what I've learned here on AS, that two of those trees would ring up over $1000 to get them down, and he balked at that idea. The elderly home owners around here have the biggest tree problems, and are afraid to spend what little they have because of the economy. 

What was funny, is he wanted them taken down for nearly free of charge, yet he didn't want his yard messed up by big equipment, holes in the turf by falling limbs, or impaction of any sort.


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## superjunior (Jan 19, 2012)

Here's a nice twist. Went and looked at a tree on a house yesterday right down the street from my shop. 40 ft maple uprooted and came down on the roof pinning the service drop against the house. She still had power. Easy job, I can pull the crane right up on it from the neighbors driveway. Probably have to polesaw the limb that's pinning the power line then hook the tree up. 1 pick - maybe 2 to be safe. I figured maybe 2 hrs max with clean up. I told the lady 700$ and she said "wow that is more then fair, my ins. co. is going to pay more so I wouldn't mind paying a little more". I said ok how about a 1000$? She said now that's fair when can you do it.. 

That's my project for today.
It's nice when customers talk you up instead of down for a change


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 19, 2012)

superjunior said:


> Here's a nice twist. Went and looked at a tree on a house yesterday right down the street from my shop. 40 ft maple uprooted and came down on the roof pinning the service drop against the house. She still had power. Easy job, I can pull the crane right up on it from the neighbors driveway. Probably have to polesaw the limb that's pinning the power line then hook the tree up. 1 pick - maybe 2 to be safe. I figured maybe 2 hrs max with clean up. I told the lady 700$ and she said "wow that is more then fair, my ins. co. is going to pay more so I wouldn't mind paying a little more". I said ok how about a 1000$? She said now that's fair when can you do it..
> 
> That's my project for today.
> It's nice when customers talk you up instead of down for a change



I have had that happen once. I gave a customer that I have had since I started business a great price for cleaning up his property after that Oct snow storm. He said I think thats a little low and said how about we add another $200 to that. I said well Ok, works for me.


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## imagineero (Jan 19, 2012)

Iustinian said:


> On this topic, they passed a law in this state that on public projects (like alot of the clearing) the bids MUST be awarded to the lowest "qualified" bidder. Some of the bids we've seen on the clearing projects are near 70% lower than ours, and its crazy to hear how much was "left on the table" - that is to say, the difference between the lowest bid, and the second lowest bid, and sometimes its UNREAL. I'm sure most of you can relate.



I think the hope of contractors who do that is that they can make it all back up with variations at a later date. They often do from what I've seen.

I no longer do council work, work for body corporates or commercial jobs including schools. I just found it was too much jumping through hoops for too little money, paid too late. Residential goes well for me, people pay on the day generally and they don't mess you around. I bid big trees with a fair price and I'm happy not to win them. Even winning them at a price I'm happy with I still dont make as much as I would make on doing medium sized trees, you can do 2 or 3 mediums in the time it takes to do one large and put less wear on yourself and your gear and put more in your pocket too.

I bid a big Euc last winter when the wolves were getting hungry, put $3750 on it when I really should have put closer to $4600 on it. About 60~70cubic yards of chip in it, only about 90' tall but very spready, 6; barrel. All over the guys house, neighbours house, 2 sheds, a carport, phone and service lines, street power etc. Probably a 2 day job for 5 or 6 guys, no access for a crane. Guy called me up and said he wanted it done last week, told him I'd have to have another look because I'd made notes on my quote sheet that the price was winter only. Got out there and told the guy how winter prices work and said he could add another $1k to the price, or wait till next winter and see how I felt about it, or find someone else. I hope he finds someone else.

Shaun


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 19, 2012)

superjunior said:


> Here's a nice twist. Went and looked at a tree on a house yesterday right down the street from my shop. 40 ft maple uprooted and came down on the roof pinning the service drop against the house. She still had power. Easy job, I can pull the crane right up on it from the neighbors driveway. Probably have to polesaw the limb that's pinning the power line then hook the tree up. 1 pick - maybe 2 to be safe. I figured maybe 2 hrs max with clean up. I told the lady 700$ and she said "wow that is more then fair, my ins. co. is going to pay more so I wouldn't mind paying a little more". I said ok how about a 1000$? She said now that's fair when can you do it..
> 
> That's my project for today.
> It's nice when customers talk you up instead of down for a change




Took a White Pine off a guy's trailer house roof, same deal. Top blew out, landed on his roof and poked some holes in it. He say's it's an insurance job, get over here right away and charge whatever you want. Dropped what I was doing and made good money before 9 am that day.


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## tree MDS (Jan 19, 2012)

I have quite a bit of equipment to throw at a job these days, so I can price things fairly reasonable and still have a chance of doing pretty good when the dust settles. There is a point when it's just not worth it though, no matter how much you feel like killing some trees. Also, with the cheapo price shoppers (not that I can really blame them), I find a good bit of pleasure in leaving them with "well, just make sure they have the workers comp and all". Lol, I figure this is gives the preemptive shaft to quite a few of em...


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## tree md (Jan 19, 2012)

tree MDS said:


> I have quite a bit of equipment to throw at a job these days, so I can price things fairly reasonable and still have a chance of doing pretty good when the dust settles. There is a point when it's just not worth it though, no matter how much you feel like killing some trees. Also, with the cheapo price shoppers (not that I can really blame them), I find a good bit of pleasure in leaving them with "well, just make sure they have the workers comp and all". Lol, I figure this is gives the preemptive shaft to quite a few of em...



Yeah but what Kinda masonry skills you got???


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## tree MDS (Jan 19, 2012)

tree md said:


> Yeah but what Kinda masonry skills you got???



Lol. None, but you should see me stack firewood, the half guinea in me comes out real quick... I'll find myself shimming up the boxed ends with bark chips and ####... it's pretty bad!


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## mckeetree (Jan 19, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Just hope you dont get it sounds under priced to me.



10-4 on that.


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## mckeetree (Jan 19, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> we couldn't go out for a 250.00$ job. anything small we say 550.00 is as low as we can go. or it isn't really worth turning the key.



Same here. We don't fool with anything under $600.00 or so anymore and haven't for years. What I will do is sub out the little stuff sometimes and make about half of what the job pays out of it .


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## Ax-man (Jan 19, 2012)

I have been in this biz as long as some here or even longer . Nothing has changed. The big removals don't pay what you need to do them and there is ALWAYS someone who will do them cheaper. How can they?? I still haven't figured it out myself but they do it all the time. 

I have found out that the trimming and the medium sized trees for removal is where you make your most profit on the dollar. The bigger the tree the less margin because of all the equipment and manpower required to do them. The market will only let you charge so much. Doing big removals is a way to go broke very slowly.


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 19, 2012)

Ax-man said:


> I have been in this biz as long as some here or even longer . Nothing has changed. The big removals don't pay what you need to do them and there is ALWAYS someone who will do them cheaper. How can they?? I still haven't figured it out myself but they do it all the time.
> 
> I have found out that the trimming and the medium sized trees for removal is where you make your most profit on the dollar. The bigger the tree the less margin because of all the equipment and manpower required to do them. The market will only let you charge so much. Doing big removals is a way to go broke very slowly.



I've gotten to the point I just yell "CHIT" in my head when I see a big removal job because without even realizing it I know the person doesn't have the cash for it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk


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## beastmaster (Jan 19, 2012)

I was self employed for several years 10 years or so ago. I used trailers and a flatbed truck. No chipper. Advertised in the local papers. I was making a killing on residential jobs, mostly single tree trims. Some days I would do 5 small jobs.
Then I hooked up with a "Guy" and he was getting me commercial work and I started doing city contracts. That was the beginning of my nightmare. I would take bigger and bigger jobs. It got the point my assets were spread out to much, My workers were making more then me, I made a bad bidding error on a large shopping center and that put the last nail in my coffin. 
If I had just stayed doing my small jobs, having fun, and enjoying the work, I know the last 10 years of ups and downs would of been a lot different . like the song says,"it's alright to be iddy bitty,"(Alan Jackson)


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 20, 2012)

Big monsters can be great, if you can get the cash, but that's the problem! I will get HO's who want me to do the job, but cant afford it, so they go with bubba, then call me after bubba messes up, with the money I asked for in the beginning. Interesting! I tell them no, wont clean up after anybody (unless it needs to be made safe). They get all bent out shape! Sorry, my rep is on the line, peeps down the street may think I am the joker who messed up, should have hired me in the first place!


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## mckeetree (Jan 20, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> then call me after bubba messes up, with the money I asked for in the beginning. Interesting! I tell them no, wont clean up after anybody



We have had that happen on several occasions and I tell those people to lose my damn number. About 15 years ago we had this old guy that kept on calling on and on and on. I finally told him we would finish the job but the price is going to be what my original quote was and I really bid the job a little low even though the idiot that tried to do it was about a fifth of my price. He agrees but when we get on the job he starts in with "Now part of this is already done and I want you to knock that off" crap. I told the guys just fold up the truck, load up the stuff and let's go. We left and that was the last time I even pretended to finish up after some moron.


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 20, 2012)

I've had to clean up after home owners that got in over their head with their 16" blade, lol, but never another service.

I get my share of good size jobs in this town I'm dealing with now and have for years, but lost one last fall to a joker, and that's part of the reason for my thread title.

I just finished a couple big Silver Maples for a client and he sent me over to this other old couples place to big a monster Silver they had in their front yard. I told the guy 2K (the highest I've ever put on a single tree), maybe less if it went really well, to take it down and clean it up, I was planning on bringing a crane and not bombing the yard, sidewalk, road, large Silver next to it, neighboring newly planted trees, and of course the house. It would have been a perfect 1 set on the street with the crane. 

He calls and said another guy got it for considereably less, and the other guys brother was going to take the wood. I'm sure the guy was not insured or really in business, cause I know of him through the grape vine, actually have done treework for his brother if that's any indicator of this guys skills. 

So I go by a month later as I'm working in the area and this guy has the remaining 5' dia. 30' spar cut almost all the way through at the base with 2 plastic wedges beat in, no notch or any relief. There was also a 25' top that he must have pulled back, upside down, wedged on top the spar. All the main leads had 6' long rips left on the spar, all the wood and everything else was gone. I know the tree stood like that for 2 weeks, if it's down now I don't know. 

This was 5' from the neighborhood sidewalk where kids go to and from school daily and the street where people park. The hazzard they left didn't sit well with me, but it wasn't my deal. 

It looked as though they deserted, but I figured as much would happen. I just had to laugh and think hey man, you got what you payed for.


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## tree MDS (Jan 20, 2012)

To be honest nails, 2k with a crane sounds awful cheap for what you're describing above.

And give it a while, you won't be laughing at the hacks anymore.. you will just hate!!

And the reason the business is weird, is because you're dealing with competing against a bunch of ####ing retards (and or drug addicts) half the time, IMO. Makes perfect sense when ya think about it actually...


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 20, 2012)

tree MDS said:


> To be honest nails, 2k with a crane sounds awful cheap for what you're describing above.
> 
> And give it a while, you won't be laughing at the hacks anymore.. you will just hate!!
> 
> And the reason the business is weird, is because you're dealing with competing against a bunch of ####ing retards (and or drug addicts) half the time, IMO. Makes perfect sense when ya think about it actually...



That potential crane job had a really short dump site haul like 2 miles round trip. I would have made it happen.

It all does make perfect sense. 
Repeat work is not a problem, it's the first time bid's that you just know the owner is going down a slippery slope when you gave them a fair price and could provide the clean, safe, efficient, work they should get. They just go with cheap up front and usually get burned later on it.


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## Iustinian (Jan 20, 2012)

*I agree*

Tree service attracts some pretty strange and shady characters. Its even better now that there's less building construction going on, with many of those guys thinking they can slide ride into this business since their's took a ####. And I hate on em lol. On the ridiculously low-bidders, good luck, and don't forget to ask for a copy of his insurance certificate.


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## Isna (Jan 20, 2012)

Depends on the size of your business. We have 35 employees, people working in the office, a big workshop, 7 trucks, tractor and all sorts of machinery. Any job under 1000$ is not worth it for us. On the other hand, for big jobs, i can take my whole crew (7+me) or even more (2 weeks ago, I had 350 trees to cut quick, took 12 people with me). That way, big jobs are easier to handle for us... You can keep the 250$ jobs...


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## tree MDS (Jan 20, 2012)

Iustinian said:


> Tree service attracts some pretty strange and shady characters. Its even better now that there's less building construction going on, with many of those guys thinking they can slide ride into this business since their's took a ####. And I hate on em lol. On the ridiculously low-bidders, good luck, and don't forget to ask for a copy of his insurance certificate.



Yep. And add to that the ever increasing number of cheap x line clearance buckets readily available, and there you have it... or at least a large portion of the problem! Whatever though, them ####s can't hang when the real #### goes down!


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Jan 20, 2012)

*Crazy Bids*

This was handed out at Topeka, KS arborist cert meeting. Parks Service Dept. December 16, 2011. City of Overland Park, Kansas. Bid Tabulation. Tree Pruning - Street Maintenance

Department Estimate - $48,500.00

Arbor Masters Tree and Landscape - $6,625.00
Hendrickson Tree Care Company - $11,750.00
K.C. Arborist, INc - $12,199.01
Kansas City Tree Care - $19,750.00
Van Booven Lawn & Landscaping - $23,475.00
Country Club Tree Service Inc - $23,625.00
Davey Tree & Lawn Care Experts - $40,560.00

Comments: This bid is for Tree Pruning and Street Maintenance. Staff recommends the bid be awarded to Arbor Masters Tree & Landscaping as indicated above.
Hows that for a range of bids!


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## mckeetree (Jan 20, 2012)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> This was handed out at Topeka, KS arborist cert meeting. Parks Service Dept. December 16, 2011. City of Overland Park, Kansas. Bid Tabulation. Tree Pruning - Street Maintenance
> 
> Department Estimate - $48,500.00
> 
> ...



I've seen it. Last year we bid a golf course job that included trimming and removals. We came in at $26,000.00. Probably the most respected tree service in the Dallas Ft. Worth Metroplex bid $28,500.00 according to one of their employees. Another company that I consider to be morons inc. bid $11,000.00. Some outfit called Ricardo's Services got it for $1,975.00. No, that's not a typo...one-thousand-nine-hundred-seventy-five and no/100 dollars.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 21, 2012)

mckeetree said:


> I've seen it. Last year we bid a golf course job that included trimming and removals. We came in at $26,000.00. Probably the most respected tree service in the Dallas Ft. Worth Metroplex bid $28,500.00 according to one of their employees. Another company that I consider to be morons inc. bid $11,000.00. Some outfit called Ricardo's Services got it for $1,975.00. No, that's not a typo...one-thousand-nine-hundred-seventy-five and no/100 dollars.


Yep, same thing here, city winter contract for Rock island, city had 140,000 on the budget, local guy bid it and won it at 46,000. I didn't bid, as I knew it was pointless, they got it! I heard they wish they didn't, for some reason, I haven't seen his trucks lately!


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## tree md (Jan 21, 2012)

mckeetree said:


> I've seen it. Last year we bid a golf course job that included trimming and removals. We came in at $26,000.00. Probably the most respected tree service in the Dallas Ft. Worth Metroplex bid $28,500.00 according to one of their employees. Another company that I consider to be morons inc. bid $11,000.00. Some outfit called Ricardo's Services got it for $1,975.00. No, that's not a typo...one-thousand-nine-hundred-seventy-five and no/100 dollars.



I gave nearly an identical bid as yours to a golf course here about 3 years ago. The bid went for 11K.


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## mckeetree (Jan 21, 2012)

tree md said:


> I gave nearly an identical bid as yours to a golf course here about 3 years ago. The bid went for 11K.



Well, what it amounts to is a lot of folks are working for nothing. And, at least around here anyway, it shows. Old run down equipment, not nearly the equipment they need, their whole operation is third world looking. Most of the time they live in the same old run down single wide trailer year after year...or they move to a different old run down single wide trailer every year.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jan 21, 2012)

I am thinking it has to reach a breaking point. In the meantime I will work for a larger co. and make them money doing what I love and getting experience, ISA certification, and none of the headaches! Good luck to you fellas....:bang:


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## Iustinian (Jan 21, 2012)

tree MDS said:


> Yep. And add to that the ever increasing number of cheap x line clearance buckets readily available, and there you have it... or at least a large portion of the problem! Whatever though, them ####s can't hang when the real #### goes down!



you are absolutely right! damn enabling bastards selling those line clearing bucket trucks for cheap!!!!!! hey I have a set a of scalpels now I should start performing surgery....hahaha


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## Iustinian (Jan 21, 2012)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> This was handed out at Topeka, KS arborist cert meeting. Parks Service Dept. December 16, 2011. City of Overland Park, Kansas. Bid Tabulation. Tree Pruning - Street Maintenance
> 
> Department Estimate - $48,500.00
> 
> ...



yea, thats quite a range of difference....I happen to know of one of the top dogs at KC Arborist, great climber, nice guy, he does a bit of traveling to other states for local climbing days and usually pretty up-to-date on the most recent climbing gear and techniques, and takes the time to show other guys new stuff, etc. I'd be pretty confident trusting his bidding abilities, but to me its obvious why Davey was the big bidder on this one. 6K tho?


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Jan 22, 2012)

*bids*

Obvious who had inside info on dallar amount. But, $6,600 amout is insane. Someone smoking something? Maybe the landscape part makes up for that? Maybe their a drug dealer? LOL! I keep overhead low and can do that amount in a week.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> This was handed out at Topeka, KS arborist cert meeting. Parks Service Dept. December 16, 2011. City of Overland Park, Kansas. Bid Tabulation. Tree Pruning - Street Maintenance
> 
> Department Estimate - $48,500.00
> 
> ...




Around here davey is usually the one throwing out the 6k bid on that bid list.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jan 22, 2012)

Really? They that bad in your area?


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## mattfr12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Slvrmple72 said:


> Really? They that bad in your area?



ya they bid like 15$ an hour for bucket truck and operator on the airport contract it was publicly announced at the bid opening i was their with a lot of other companies
like 30$ per hour for crane with operator.


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## arborjockey (Jan 22, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> ya they bid like 15$ an hour for bucket truck and operator on the airport contract it was publicly announced at the bid opening i was their with a lot of other companies
> like 30$ per hour for crane with operator.



Sub them out and stay at home


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## treeman75 (Jan 22, 2012)

Big silvers around here run 3000-5000 cleaned up. There are about eight professionals around here and we are usually about the same give or take a couple. Then there are the ones that stick around a year or so and cant make it, I wonder why. I get plenty of work and try not to let the lowballers bothery me. The people that hire them get what they pay for. When im bidding a job I try to educate the home owner and sell them on why they should hire me then I close them.


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## deevo (Jan 22, 2012)

treeman75 said:


> Big silvers around here run 3000-5000 cleaned up. There are about eight professionals around here and we are usually about the same give or take a couple. Then there are the ones that stick around a year or so and cant make it, I wonder why. I get plenty of work and try not to let the lowballers bothery me. The people that hire them get what they pay for. When im bidding a job I try to educate the home owner and sell them on why they should hire me then I close them.



Yep, and even the ones that try and start up there own with the right equipment and say they have all these skills and certificates show up and have no clue what to do. But give you a good price. Might as well of paid someone experienced to do it right in the first place! The hackers and no minds can't touch the bigs ones around here because they can't do them! Those are the ones I like, the more difficult ones.


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## mckeetree (Jan 22, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> ya they bid like 15$ an hour for bucket truck and operator on the airport contract it was publicly announced at the bid opening i was their with a lot of other companies
> like 30$ per hour for crane with operator.



I think you are making that up. That is just ridiculous.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 23, 2012)

mckeetree said:


> I think you are making that up. That is just ridiculous.



nope was their with at least 10 other companies at the bid opening their hurting for work around here. davey is lucky to cut 1 tree every two years in my town and the 3 surrounding it we just slap them around on price every time. are well enough known to be called to all the jobs they do to bid. i would loose money on a job before i let them have it. their guys are laid off and me and a few others around here are working year round.

they do a lot of spraying. but as far as residential they can't compete endless they loose money. other davey offices make up for their loss. they do it just to have a presence.

i might still have a copy of the winning bid in my files ill look for it when i go to work tomorrow its not that uncommon for them to do it they don't just do it in my area.

call and double check it it was for pittsburgh international airport its public information because the contract is still in affect at those prices.
ask for the department that accepts bids they have like four offices in the airport just for taking bids. and ask for a copy of the current contract.

why would i make it up because its cool to post davey has low prices? works for me.


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## mckeetree (Jan 23, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> why would i make it up



I believe you I just had no idea they would do that.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 23, 2012)

Its just like Asplaud doing work for penndot. I am sure they bid it so so low to get it, but they make it up by screwing off alot. They must spend like 3 hrs a day screwing off. I think I could get more road clearance done per day by myself then they can with 4 guys.


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## tree md (Jan 23, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Its just like Asplaud doing work for penndot. I am sure they bid it so so low to get it, but they make it up by screwing off alot. They must spend like 3 hrs a day screwing off. I think I could get more road clearance done per day by myself then they can with 4 guys.



They make up for it by hiring undocumented workers and paying them ####ty wages.


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## Iustinian (Jan 23, 2012)

tree md said:


> They make up for it by hiring undocumented workers and paying them ####ty wages.



I've heard that before -- a few friends of mine work for them; we were trying to get a mutual friend hired there and my buddies were joking around with him about how since he's legal he won't get hired. lol


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## tree md (Jan 23, 2012)

In all fairness I have noticed that they have quit spiking and are doing proper pruning for the most part... However they do fool around a lot.

I had one of the crew leaders/climbers come onto my job site while I was doing storm work in Alabama. They were working the street I was working on. I was trying to hit a high TIP with my big shot on a huge Oak so I could deadwood it and pull hangers. He came over and said he could throw it up there. Said he had never used a big shot before, that he always threw the line in the tree... I said what the hell and gave him a shot... His first throw missed the tree entirely and almost went over the phase three, high voltage line which was in the front yard, in front of the target tree... I said enough of that and took my throw line back... He was a nice enough guy though. About my age and spoke English relatively well. He wanted to do side work with me and I probably would have let him if I had had a real need for him.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 24, 2012)

tree md said:


> In all fairness I have noticed that they have quit spiking and are doing proper pruning for the most part... However they do fool around a lot.
> 
> I had one of the crew leaders/climbers come onto my job site while I was doing storm work in Alabama. They were working the street I was working on. I was trying to hit a high TIP with my big shot on a huge Oak so I could deadwood it and pull hangers. He came over and said he could throw it up there. Said he had never used a big shot before, that he always threw the line in the tree... I said what the hell and gave him a shot... His first throw missed the tree entirely and almost went over the phase three, high voltage line which was in the front yard, in front of the target tree... I said enough of that and took my throw line back... He was a nice enough guy though. About my age and spoke English relatively well. He wanted to do side work with me and I probably would have let him if I had had a real need for him.



Dude i absolutely love the big shot i don't know how i lived with out it that thing saves me money on employees waiting for me to hit a TIP or having to climb higher to my TIP everyday i would assume 20min it shaves off a day. i am not the best at throwing a bag. but i could kill a squirrel at 60 feet with the big shot.

rarely ever takes me more than 2 shots anymore. now all i need is a raptor and ill be moving.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 24, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Its just like Asplaud doing work for penndot. I am sure they bid it so so low to get it, but they make it up by screwing off alot. They must spend like 3 hrs a day screwing off. I think I could get more road clearance done per day by myself then they can with 4 guys.


Oh forsure! That can be a cushy gig tho, working at the Big O. They where on my street this year, 4 trucks. One truck worked the others slept all day!
My first padawan is the Asst GF for them here. Got him on when I was called back to play jarhead. When I came home and started back up, he told me he was staying there. "I know you, your going to work me to death!" "I'm going to stay here and continue to stare at the crack in my windshield" 
I would so love to get paid to sleep, I think that would be a pretty decent deal, PPE 1.Slippers 2.Jammies 3.Binkie


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> Dude i absolutely love the big shot i don't know how i lived with out it that thing saves me money on employees waiting for me to hit a TIP or having to climb higher to my TIP everyday i would assume 20min it shaves off a day. i am not the best at throwing a bag. but i could kill a squirrel at 60 feet with the big shot.
> 
> rarely ever takes me more than 2 shots anymore. now all i need is a raptor and ill be moving.



Just go buy one Matt. All it takes is one ride and you never want to go back. No joke, anything but a wraptor is pretty stone age. I'm serious. Come on up here and you can ride mine if you don't believe me.


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## tree md (Jan 24, 2012)

_You're sailing softly through the sun
In a broken stone age dawn you fly, so high, I get a

Strange magic..._


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 26, 2012)

Got a call about midday with the go ahead to remove a 50' tall, 50' wide ailanthus, over 2 houses and totally hollow with a 2'x3' cats face on the main stem, and a 65' dying pine, if I'd do it for $100 less than the original bid for the two. I've been slow and broke, so sure, knock off a hundy. He want's to start monday or wednesday.....great with me, the sooner the better.

I told him I'd have to check with my bucket man to make sure monday would work, and get the contract drawn up and signed. Called him back a bit ago to let him know monday would work out fine. And he starts backing up. 

"I talked again with my brother who writes the checks, and he wants me to get some more bids"

Huh? You said earlier that you'd talked with him and we were good to go @ $2k.

"Yeah, but he said he wants me to get more bids, I'm sorry.....I'll call you back by saturday at the latest"

My gut feeling is that I'm dodging a bullet......hearing the "contract" word scared them, which probably means they were gonna try to pay late or not at all. I really doubt I'll hear back from them at all, and if I do, they can forget about the hundy discount.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 26, 2012)

Tree of Heaven, wow, that is a big one. They don't last that long out here. Maybe you did dodge that bullet.
Jeff


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## beastmaster (Jan 27, 2012)

Be thankfull. The tree of (hell)heaven are miserable and dangerous when in perfect shape, I never seen one that big either. Very brittle tree, that will barber chair in a second.


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## treeman75 (Jan 27, 2012)

ghetto palm


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## Iustinian (Jan 27, 2012)

Stink tree. Yet another gift from asia -- along with EAB, Asiatic Ladybeetle, and Brown Marmorated Stinkbug. Didn't kudzu come from there as well?


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## Nailsbeats (Feb 3, 2012)

I'll bump this up with an update.

Drumroll please.................I did not get the job! Isn't that great!

Guy says he has a 36" bar and for the price I'm giving him he could rent a bucket truck or a spider lift. Say's he'll probably end up doing most of it himself.

Have at er' guy

I'm sure he'll be just fine over that 7200v and the big wood over the house, not to mention the 2 service drops with phone and cable to boot......


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## Blakesmaster (Feb 3, 2012)

Nailsbeats said:


> I'll bump this up with an update.
> 
> Drumroll please.................I did not get the job! Isn't that great!
> 
> ...



I'd offer to pay him to see the show. lol


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## Nailsbeats (Feb 3, 2012)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'd offer to pay him to see the show. lol



It's gonna be a good one for sure. Dodged a bullet on that job, you know the kind.


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## tree md (Feb 3, 2012)

Had one back out on me on a large removal today. Well, large for around here. Sweet Gum all over an outdoor gazebo. Tight drop zone. Could bomb a bunch of stuff but no room to drop anything big. Really brushy and one whole side and the top would have to be lowered. Maybe 65' and about 30" DBH. Huge stump to grind. I priced it for complete removal and grind stump for $1250. Had great access. I could back right up to it. We were all good to go when I bid it last week... Told me to call Friday and schedule as their income tax return was supposed to come in this week... They said they had car trouble when I called and was not going to be able to do it now... I asked if he wanted to do it at a later date and he said they were probably just going to have to burn it down... Meaning more than likely somebody came in and low balled it. Ah well, I can go broke sitting at home. I might could have gone down a little but I am tired of that crap. I know what the work is worth. Let someone else kill themselves for peanuts. I'll set at home and not worry about the aggravation. It's not like I don't have other work lined up but it kind of sucks. Everything else I have is nickle and dime stuff right now. Not that this was a huge job but it was a decent days work.


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## mckeetree (Feb 4, 2012)

tree md said:


> Had one back out on me on a large removal today. Well, large for around here. Sweet Gum all over an outdoor gazebo. Tight drop zone. Could bomb a bunch of stuff but no room to drop anything big. Really brushy and one whole side and the top would have to be lowered. Maybe 65' and about 30" DBH. Huge stump to grind. I priced it for complete removal and grind stump for $1250. Had great access. I could back right up to it. We were all good to go when I bid it last week... Told me to call Friday and schedule as their income tax return was supposed to come in this week... They said they had car trouble when I called and was not going to be able to do it now... I asked if he wanted to do it at a later date and he said they were probably just going to have to burn it down... Meaning more than likely somebody came in and low balled it. Ah well, I can go broke sitting at home. I might could have gone down a little but I am tired of that crap. I know what the work is worth. Let someone else kill themselves for peanuts. I'll set at home and not worry about the aggravation. It's not like I don't have other work lined up but it kind of sucks. Everything else I have is nickle and dime stuff right now. Not that this was a huge job but it was a decent days work.



We get around $2,100.00 for a job like that and won't come down on the price. The day we have to do jobs for nothing just to be able to say we are in the tree service business is the day I leave this deal. After all these years I have NO problem walking away from this business.


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## tree md (Feb 4, 2012)

mckeetree said:


> We get around $2,100.00 for a job like that and won't come down on the price. The day we have to do jobs for nothing just to be able to say we are in the tree service business is the day I leave this deal. After all these years I have NO problem walking away from this business.



Well, it is what it is. The market is in the crapper around here. That tree is not worth $2100 in any market I have ever worked in. Sure, if it was over the house and everything needed to be rigged/blocked down but 2/3's of this one was flat dropping limbs, hang the top, throw the pole. Our economy is a little better this year but with American Airlines just laying off 2100 here, that just seems to have put a damper on things. Probably be a lot of removals to do over the Summer due to the drought last year. I do have a large removal to do tomorrow, along with multiple smaller trees, grind stumps. The guy is widening his driveway. I have HOA work to do later in the month and few small prunes. 3 very small removals. Everything seems small to me after working in Alabama all Summer. Most trees out in this part of the country just don't add up to ####. They are elementary. Probably why every Tom, #### and Harry is out there doing it. I suppose I could get me a bucket and go through the neighborhoods topping everything I see... Those guys seem to be doing pretty well here.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 4, 2012)

tree md said:


> I suppose I could get me a bucket and go through the neighborhoods topping everything I see... Those guys seem to be doing pretty well here.



Yep, just make sure you go door to door and tell'em why their tree needs a height reduction because...........its growing, lol


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## mckeetree (Feb 4, 2012)

tree md said:


> That tree is not worth $2100 in any market I have ever worked in.




"Tight drop zone. Could bomb a bunch of stuff but no room to drop anything big. Really brushy and one whole side and the top would have to be lowered. Maybe 65' and about 30" DBH. Huge stump to grind."


Let's see...tight drop zone, check. No room to drop anything big, check. Really brushy, check. Top would have to be lowered, check. Sixty five feet tall, check. 30" DBH, check. Huge stump to grind, check. Hmmmmm. That tree is worth $2,100.00 in EVERY market I have EVER worked in and I'm going to get that sort of price for a tree like that or I'm not going to do it. I'm still getting it because I'm still in business after all this time. Like I said...the day I can't get $2,100.00 for that tree because of whatever, too many hacks or Mexicans or economy or whatever, is the day the tree business is in my rear view mirror.


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## tree md (Feb 4, 2012)

Well it was obviously not worth $1250 in this market...

You seem intent on getting into a pissing match with me... Be careful what you wish for.


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## mckeetree (Feb 4, 2012)

tree md said:


> Well it was obviously not worth $1250 in this market...
> 
> You seem intent on getting into a pissing match with me... Be careful what you wish for.



No, no. I don't want in a pissing match with you. I don't have anything against you. Granted I can hold my own pretty good in a pissing match. I was just stating what I am willing to work for and what the markets I have ever been in would have to support. I'm just not dropping my standard of living to what it would be to do that kind of a job for that money. This business just isn't enough fun to do that. I would do something else.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 4, 2012)

Market's vary by region.
Be glad for what you can get.
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## tree md (Feb 4, 2012)

Sounds like you got the right Idea McKee. I don't have anything against you either. Sounds like you're doing something right to hold your own in a tough market. Best of luck to you.


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