# Dangerous technique?



## beastmaster (Feb 13, 2011)

I caught a lot of slack for a cut I did on a removal. First time I've ever worked for this company and the owner was a tyrant(I can be a hard head also). It was a muli trunk ash over a house. I was using the tallest trunk to catch the others. One of the small trunks went over the house with a pronounce lean next to the chimney.
above the house I anchored the butt and tied the top of the leaner to the higher other trunk . When I started my cut and the trunk started moving, the top tie in pulled tight and cause the trunk I was cutting to change direction 90 deg. away from the house, when I cut all the way though my anchor rope caught the butt.(both ropes were controlled on the ground.) 
This freak this guy out, he started yelling at me, told me to get out of the tree..
I was almost done with the tree after that so I just finished. He hired me for that tree because he didn't think his guys could do it.
He figured it would take all day, it took me 3 hours. He didn't want to pay me(I charged for the job, not by the hour).
Any one else ever use this technique or feel it was dangerous?


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## GLOBOTREE (Feb 13, 2011)

anyways...you got the Tree down right? so the guy freaked out? was anyone injured? was there any property damage? and did you enjoy watching some freak yell at you? things happen all the time, unexpectedly is when a second look at yourself warrants self question. If you knew this wood happen and made up for it, i wood have likely done the same, chimney was in the way.


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## beastmaster (Feb 13, 2011)

It did just what I know it would, and it was faster and safer. 
I sometimes invent things as I go. That wasn't my first rodeo. 
Why hire me if your not going to trust me.


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## TreeAce (Feb 13, 2011)

From the picture in my head of what u did it sounds like standard tree work to me. Except maybe a bit more advanced ..maybe TREE WORK 202 not 101. I used to work for a guy (The "bucket truck idiot" if u saw that thread) who would freak out about things he didnt understand. I think he was struggling to be or feel like the "alpha" male....IDK...some people are just A holes ..keep that in mind.


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## NCTREE (Feb 13, 2011)

Screw that guy! You did what any seasoned climber would do in that situation. You were even extra careful by butt tieing it too. The tree is down, no one hurt, chimney is still there, thats the goal. You might be right about him not wanting to pay you the full amount since you hammered that tree.After you finished the tree you should went over to him extended your hand and said "pay up sucka!" next time he calls you to do a job tell him you want double pay now to put up with his jerk attitude.


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## Jeffsaw (Feb 13, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I caught a lot of slack for a cut I did on a removal. First time I've ever worked for this company and the owner was a tyrant(I can be a hard head also). It was a muli trunk ash over a house. I was using the tallest trunk to catch the others. One of the small trunks went over the house with a pronounce lean next to the chimney.
> above the house I anchored the butt and tied the top of the leaner to the higher other trunk . When I started my cut and the trunk started moving, the top tie in pulled tight and cause the trunk I was cutting to change direction 90 deg. away from the house, when I cut all the way though my anchor rope caught the butt.(both ropes were controlled on the ground.)
> This freak this guy out, he started yelling at me, told me to get out of the tree..
> I was almost done with the tree after that so I just finished. He hired me for that tree because he didn't think his guys could do it.
> ...


 
It seems like everything was controlled. Good job.


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## treemandan (Feb 13, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I caught a lot of slack for a cut I did on a removal. First time I've ever worked for this company and the owner was a tyrant(I can be a hard head also). It was a muli trunk ash over a house. I was using the tallest trunk to catch the others. One of the small trunks went over the house with a pronounce lean next to the chimney.
> above the house I anchored the butt and tied the top of the leaner to the higher other trunk . When I started my cut and the trunk started moving, the top tie in pulled tight and cause the trunk I was cutting to change direction 90 deg. away from the house, when I cut all the way though my anchor rope caught the butt.(both ropes were controlled on the ground.)
> This freak this guy out, he started yelling at me, told me to get out of the tree..
> I was almost done with the tree after that so I just finished. He hired me for that tree because he didn't think his guys could do it.
> ...


 
Yes, its very dangerous thing to do and here's why: some people don't like the people they hire knowing more than them.
Its gonna be tough for ya bro but don't let em drag ya down.


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## treemandan (Feb 13, 2011)

And believe it or not Beast, you answered a question I had on my mind today. I was thinking if there are the same dumb ####s out there as here. 


Sometimes its a little longer to rig down but as you know the tip and butt tie method is pretty dam awesome simple as it is and will come in handy for some really tough stuff and it doesn't really slow everything down cause you just made one very controlled cut rather that who know what? Right? Right. Screw that dude, I have been there.


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## mic687 (Feb 14, 2011)

I have used this many times for stuff over a roof or other obsticle and the only problem I can see is if you don't tip tie out far enough the butt can shift back on you. It will only take once or twice and you will do it right from then on. It is interesting when people watch and exclaim I had no idea how you were going to do that.


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## treemandan (Feb 14, 2011)

mic687 said:


> I have used this many times for stuff over a roof or other obsticle and the only problem I can see is if you don't tip tie out far enough the butt can shift back on you. It will only take once or twice and you will do it right from then on. It is interesting when people watch and exclaim I had no idea how you were going to do that.


 
And therein lies the problem that Beasty had: I mean if they could not figure out what he was up to by watching him set the freaking ropes then man, I just dunno.

Sure he could have explained what was up but probably didn't think he had to. Its true many an unknowing groundy beleives that every tree comes down all crazy like Evil Kenival was doing it. I have been around, a lot of people get confused ( they really do, no joke and some have been in it for years) when you put the rope on the tip and if you use two ropes, well, forget it.


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## ozzy42 (Feb 14, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I caught a lot of slack for a cut I did on a removal. First time I've ever worked for this company and the owner was a tyrant(I can be a hard head also). It was a muli trunk ash over a house. I was using the tallest trunk to catch the others. One of the small trunks went over the house with a pronounce lean next to the chimney.
> above the house I anchored the butt and tied the top of the leaner to the higher other trunk . When I started my cut and the trunk started moving, the top tie in pulled tight and cause the trunk I was cutting to change direction 90 deg. away from the house, when I cut all the way though my anchor rope caught the butt.(both ropes were controlled on the ground.)
> This freak this guy out, he started yelling at me, told me to get out of the tree..
> I was almost done with the tree after that so I just finished. He hired me for that tree because he didn't think his guys could do it.
> ...


 
Only thing that sounded dangerous is a man working a pro climber ,then not wanting to pay him.
AAAH HAAAAELLE NO:deadhorse:


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## beastmaster (Feb 15, 2011)

I have to admit I maybe got some kind of sick thrill when the trunk started heading for the tile roof and chimney and he started screaming and freaking, and then slowly and controlled it started moving almost 90 deg. away from the house.
I did explain in great detail to the ground crew who were handling the ropes what was going to happen and their part. It depended on their handling of the ropes perfect. They did a really good job and were eager to learn. They had never seen a speed line used before. They went home knowing a few new techniques
I did get paid.


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## Rftreeman (Feb 15, 2011)

the guy that freaked must not be as good as he thinks he is, we used that method a lot over power lines when there wasn't room to hinge the piece straight down we used this to let it swing sideways then down...


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## limbwalker54 (Feb 16, 2011)

That guy sounds like someone who never climbed before......
I had my second climber (me being the first one) out a few months back and before I could say "hey why don't you" he had the tip and butt tied on a long piece of maple over a chimney...my groundies were all over it, and it came out perfect. No freakin' out here, because I would have done the same thing.

Sounds like this guy had a lot to learn from you but didn't want to admit it! 

-Mike


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## tree md (Feb 16, 2011)

That's pretty much how I was taught to do solid, multi-lead trees from jump street. As long as everything is solid it is a pretty basic technique. One thing that I like to do on trees like that is set a TIP in the central leader that I am lowering from so I can swing around to the other leaders to work. Just unclip from the TIP before you make your cut and have your groundy flip or send you the line back after you make your cut (that's the safe way to do it). That's how I do nearly all of my Maples. Saves a butt load of time.

I've worked for people who have freaked when they see how I work and how big of pieces I take at a time. That's how I was taught and that is my style. Some people like to climb the tree three times, nipping at it as they go. That has never been my style. I'm into bringing them down in the most efficient way and putting them on the ground quick, fast and in a hurry. Knock on wood, I've never done any damage to a structure in 20 years of climbing.

There were a lot of guys who let me go when I was younger and told me I would never make it in this business. Funny thing is I am still around and a lot of them are not... And some of them are in the grave.


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## millbilly (Feb 16, 2011)

*good job*

Thats what we have always called a top line with a butt. Just courious did you put a notch near your butt rope? I allways do it gives me more control when I walk the limb around. after all the weight is in the top line throw your butt off and use it as a guide line to pull it clear of obsticals


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## beastmaster (Feb 18, 2011)

millbilly said:


> Thats what we have always called a top line with a butt. Just courious did you put a notch near your butt rope? I allways do it gives me more control when I walk the limb around. after all the weight is in the top line throw your butt off and use it as a guide line to pull it clear of obsticals



I didn't use a notch cut on that particular leader, but have in other situations. That was a fun easy removal considering it was mostly over a house with a tile roof with the chimney right there. One leader was straight up and made it easy to remove most the tree using it. I skidded (speedline)part of the tree down on one side using slings on the same rope I was lowing rest the tree with. It went really fast like that.
Lots of times you have to decide is it safer to make many cuts and risk a piece getting lose and hitting a tile roof or take out a large section and have only one cut to worry about.
This is all basic stuff, but the level of professionalism in these parts often fall short of what it should be. Lots of butcher and illegals have made the pay scale so bad there isn't much incentive for anyone to want to chose tree work as a profession and learn more then the basics.
That being said, there are some great experts around, but their far and few between. beastmaster


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## ropensaddle (Feb 18, 2011)

How could you do something so dangerous, that's nuts now get out of that tree ya hear me:monkey:


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## ropensaddle (Feb 18, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> How could you do something so dangerous, that's nuts now get out of that tree ya hear me:monkey:


 
So's I can do it


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## tree md (Feb 18, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I didn't use a notch cut on that particular leader, but have in other situations. That was a fun easy removal considering it was mostly over a house with a tile roof with the chimney right there. One leader was straight up and made it easy to remove most the tree using it. I skidded (speedline)part of the tree down on one side using slings on the same rope I was lowing rest the tree with. It went really fast like that.
> Lots of times you have to decide is it safer to make many cuts and risk a piece getting lose and hitting a tile roof or take out a large section and have only one cut to worry about.
> This is all basic stuff, but the level of professionalism in these parts often fall short of what it should be. Lots of butcher and illegals have made the pay scale so bad there isn't much incentive for anyone to want to chose tree work as a profession and learn more then the basics.
> That being said, there are some great experts around, but their far and few between. beastmaster


 
I've been to your neck of the woods a few times. I love the Riverside, Carlsbad area and North of there as well. Some of the most beautiful country and beaches I have seen. I like to vacation there. I checked on pay scale for a climber out there a few years back because I was considering moving there but with the cost of living it would be hard for what they pay a climber. I saw a 60 YO guy take down a Redwood up in Sonoma County a few years back and chatted with him. He told me what he was getting payed for the job and my jaw dropped... I think that it's probably because there are a lot of ex/unemployed loggers in that community and the work just doesn't pay very well. He was doing that job for about half of what I would get here for a similar scale job... Of course that was a few years ago too. Could be that the depression hit there first and had yet to catch up with me in my area.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 19, 2011)

tree md said:


> I've been to your neck of the woods a few times. I love the Riverside, Carlsbad area and North of there as well. Some of the most beautiful country and beaches I have seen. I like to vacation there. I checked on pay scale for a climber out there a few years back because I was considering moving there but with the cost of living it would be hard for what they pay a climber. I saw a 60 YO guy take down a Redwood up in Sonoma County a few years back and chatted with him. He told me what he was getting payed for the job and my jaw dropped... I think that it's probably because there are a lot of ex/unemployed loggers in that community and the work just doesn't pay very well. He was doing that job for about half of what I would get here for a similar scale job... Of course that was a few years ago too. Could be that the depression hit there first and had yet to catch up with me in my area.


 
I think it may be the illegals senior They take over the market like maggots on garbage! Look around at construction,especially concrete. They have definitely entered the tree arena here and it stinks.


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## beastmaster (Feb 19, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I think it may be the illegals senior They take over the market like maggots on garbage! Look around at construction,especially concrete. They have definitely entered the tree arena here and it stinks.


 
You hit the nail on the head. All those Companys that employed illegals are now bidding against them. That cheap labor is biting them in their asses. 
They low bid tell the competition is gone. Then after they control the industry jack up their prices.
That a pet peeve of mine because I suffer reverse discrimination almost anywhere I work. I guess they see a American as a threat and I catch a lot of slack from them. Not to mention listening to their music, no one to talk to. Don't get me started.
Beastmaster


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## ropensaddle (Feb 19, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> You hit the nail on the head. All those Companys that employed illegals are now bidding against them. That cheap labor is biting them in their asses.
> They low bid tell the competition is gone. Then after they control the industry jack up their prices.
> That a pet peeve of mine because I suffer reverse discrimination almost anywhere I work. I guess they see a American as a threat and I catch a lot of slack from them. Not to mention listening to their music, no one to talk to. Don't get me started.
> Beastmaster


 
Me neither it is a shame the word illegal is sorta looked at in taboo. We know wazzup we really need to thank the aclu Anyway I will leave it alone buddy so we don't say too much!


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 20, 2011)

I will say that is a little scary to watch when you don't understand it . The trees sometime render funny and it always looks heavy on the rope usually bending the top like a fishing pole .. But good for you , getting his blood pressure elevated ..


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## tree MDS (Feb 20, 2011)

I think it's almost impossible to do the real tricky trees without knowing the tip tie and butt tie cut. 

Back in the day we used to take down some big assed trees, with a 50' work height skyworker, mounted behind the cab. That cut is a must for that type of thing imo. kinda freaky cutting a 30 foot leader above your head, stood straight up like that at first though..


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## beastmaster (Feb 20, 2011)

I've tip tied a long branch that had to clear an object, then cut it close to the tree from underneath so then it came loose it would fall full speed towards the tree, tip up. Thats a little dangerous, at least for the climber. beastmaster


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## tree md (Feb 20, 2011)

I agree that some people just freak when they see a big honking piece of wood suspended from a rope. I had hung an 18" pine, prolly an 80' tree, from a larger neighboring pine onetime in these condominiums. I had room in the back of the place to lay most of the tree down. Saved me a ton of time having to piece it out. The old lady that lived in the condo next to the customer came out and FREAKED! She cussed me up one side and down the other about lowering a whole tree over her house and #####ed me out for laying part of it in her yard (which was community property that I had gotten permission to use). I appeased her the best I could and got the hell out of there. Some people just freak when they see the work being done.


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## flushcut (Feb 20, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I caught a lot of slack for a cut I did on a removal. First time I've ever worked for this company and the owner was a tyrant(I can be a hard head also). It was a muli trunk ash over a house. I was using the tallest trunk to catch the others. One of the small trunks went over the house with a pronounce lean next to the chimney.
> above the house I anchored the butt and tied the top of the leaner to the higher other trunk . When I started my cut and the trunk started moving, the top tie in pulled tight and cause the trunk I was cutting to change direction 90 deg. away from the house, when I cut all the way though my anchor rope caught the butt.(both ropes were controlled on the ground.)
> This freak this guy out, he started yelling at me, told me to get out of the tree..
> I was almost done with the tree after that so I just finished. He hired me for that tree because he didn't think his guys could do it.
> ...


 
How was that dangerous? Having not seen it maybe you could have used a spider leg and a tag or just a tag maybe. You got it done and nobody/no property got hurt sounds like a good day to me. 



tree md said:


> Some people just freak when they see the work being done.


 
That they do.


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## Mikecutstrees (Feb 20, 2011)

Sounds like a good job to me. Iv'e done taht many times and it works well. Funny to see the people on the ground get nervous when it moves towards a structure. Usually I brief the groundies not to get nervous. Many times I'll set two blocks on seperate leaders if I'm taking a really monster top. Good job

Mike


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## Scrat (Feb 20, 2011)

Beastmaster- I have found that you have to be very clear when pricing by the tree, hour or day. I have found that when you price a tree or job it is best to also clearly indicate the amount of time you feel it will take, otherwise the other guy will make an assumption and that will be based on his experience or lack of. They could think it should take 2 hours and may feel you were slow or 3 hours which it took you and he would be happy or he ASSUMED it would take all day and lets say you priced the tree at $400.00 so he feels you are costing him $50.00 an hour and he is ok with that. Now you pound that tree out in 3 hours, you go Beastmaster!, and he feels screwed cause now he is paying you $133.00 an hour... he thinks "SH!T I DON'T MAKE THAT" I'm not paying you that.....get out of that tree!

Now it is hard to explain anything because he is now bias and opinionated towards you.

I feel your pain as I have suffered it in the past. Now I have had great luck by always giving a clear description of my pricing, climbing plan and time to complete. in fact recently one of the local guys I climb for when he feels it is beyond his guy's ability, I knocked out a "fixed price for the tree" job in less time than estimated by both of us. When he paid me for a completed job I counted the money then I grabed him and said you over paid me a hundred bucks and I wanted to return it, He replied I know how to count and I know how much you saved me on this job.

So I guess the moral is don't leave room for assumptions they usually leave someone feeling bad.


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