# Better Show than Ax-Men / Hist. Chan.



## M.D. Vaden (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm not exactly sure what the name of the show I'm watching right now is, but it's only about 1 hour long, and just happened to follow Ax-Men.

This other show has been aired before.

It shows a lot of modern forestry, mill technology and logging. Including a harvester that grabs entire trees, rotates them in an arm, delimbs with rollers, and cuts with what's probably a hydralic power chainsaw. I noticed that the operator was a lot porkier than loggers doing mostly manual work. One reason I don't like doing exclusively machine operation.

Anyway, with all the technology covered, as well as input from a lot of university educated professionals, I found this short show to be more interesting - although shorter.

Seems to cover many more aspects in much less time. Less drama, more information.

It shows the beginning of band saw use, historical log transportation like Flumes, and locamotives. So it's got old and new included.


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## sILlogger (Apr 16, 2008)

Modern Marvels "Logging"


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## M.D. Vaden (Apr 16, 2008)

sILlogger said:


> Modern Marvels "Logging"



Immediately followed by Modern Marvels "Saws", tonight.

Nice show line-up.


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## JackD_ME (Apr 17, 2008)

I liked the logging and saws shows better than ax-men too. 
The ax-men show looks more like 'created drama' and is trying to be like 'deadliest catch' but doesn't come close to the original shows. Looks to me like having cameras on a logging site would encourage [some] people to show of, therefore getting hurt doing stupid things.

"Logging" & "Saws" are much better produced shows!


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## turnkey4099 (Apr 18, 2008)

JackD_ME said:


> I liked the logging and saws shows better than ax-men too.
> The ax-men show looks more like 'created drama' and is trying to be like 'deadliest catch' but doesn't come close to the original shows. Looks to me like having cameras on a logging site would encourage [some] people to show of, therefore getting hurt doing stupid things.
> 
> "Logging" & "Saws" are much better produced shows!




Same here. That the incidents shown have happened to someone, somewhere, at some time is undoubtedly true. but that they happen conveniently just when a camera crew is on scene... 

It is a show. Shows are scripted in advance. These 'reality' shows probably aren't scripted down to every detail but the overall plan is there. "okay, we'll open with a general set-up of a carriage problem and then John will discover that the fuel cap was off..."

Harry K


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## Oly's Stump (Apr 23, 2008)

Ax Men is still better than watching lets say American Idol or something like that (anyday)!


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## turnkey4099 (Apr 25, 2008)

Oly's Stump said:


> Ax Men is still better than watching lets say American Idol or something like that (anyday)!



Watching paint dry is better than 90% of what is on boob toob.

Tried the Alaska series tonight - just another Ice Road Truckers, Ax-men. Same format, same fairly boring narration. Grabbed the intro to the oil drilling and the future weapons. Future Weapons was a bit more interesting - didn't stick with either of them.

Harry K


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## Dwayne Ferguson (Apr 25, 2008)

I like ax-men yep the narration gets on my nerves they make it sound to dramatic and more dangerous than it is but its good watching some different ways of yarding I've manly worked in swing yarder crews i really like watching 
Stump Branch Logging that Jammer logging looks like fun.


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## Oly's Stump (Apr 25, 2008)

I like the Stump Branch Logging guys...I even bought a pair of their suspenders from their web site!


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## Blakesmaster (Apr 25, 2008)

I was just talking to my buddy about this yesterday. We like the show but are sick of the BS drama that goes on. He's not even in this industry but wishes it would show more of the technical aspects of logging than the "personality" crap of the loggers. I agreed whole heartedly.


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## turnkey4099 (Apr 26, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I was just talking to my buddy about this yesterday. We like the show but are sick of the BS drama that goes on. He's not even in this industry but wishes it would show more of the technical aspects of logging than the "personality" crap of the loggers. I agreed whole heartedly.




Same here. They are missing a good chance to really get into the technicals. Show, with explanation, falling techniques. Show some close ups of some of the equipment, example: just how the cables hook up around a log - I saw the 'bell and ??' equipment back when I was a kid but don't recall just how it hooks up/unhooks so fast.

Harry K


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## ckliff (Apr 26, 2008)

*love that avatar!!!!!!!!!!*



Oly's Stump said:


> Ax Men is still better than watching lets say American Idol or something like that (anyday)!



Went to your website. www.olysstumpremoval.com Great looking site & the avatar in the upper left corner is priceless! Kudos to your IT guy.


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## M.D. Vaden (May 2, 2008)

Somebody somewhere asked a question about a helmet today, and it occured to me that after watching Ax-Men, I don't remember whether or not, or how often, the crews used helmets, hearing protection or eye protection.

Anyone payed close attention to that?


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## Humptulips (May 2, 2008)

*First post*

Ok, new member here.
I have to say My Dad and I watch axe men but every episode we are grinding our teeth. What has logging come to?
I mean rope instead of strawline and they didn't even have a knockout shackle for the skyline. A sleeve but a threaded pin with a nut on it, argghh.
Not to mention it made my behind hurt to seem them climb and rig a tail tree.
That one side, can't remember names, anyway that foreman keeps bad talking his hooktender but does he head down in the brush to straighten things out? Noooooooo
The three foot high stumps and long root wads peeve me to.
Maybe I'm to picky but it seems like there is a lack of experienced good men down there.


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## M.D. Vaden (May 2, 2008)

Didn't have to wait for you folks to answer my question about eyewear.

Amazing...

I just happened to change channels to Ax Men tonight, while they were dropping trees with chainsaws. Absolutely no eye protection.

If there would be one time I'd never want to risk runny eyes from a wood chip, would be just as I'm needing to clear the danger zone around a tree ready to fall.

Maybe the one crew made up for it a bit, by installing the thick piece of safety glass on the roof of the machine that had a limb bust it's top transparent panel.

But then it switched over to the other crew, with the men felling sawing one-handed - one hand on the big chainsaw, the other on the trunk. I'm not against one handing for small climbing saws, but I don't one-hand bigger saws when dropping a tree. Mainly because of concern to loose balance and send the saw out of control if I fall forward, which would mean the saw possibly revving and coming back at me.


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## Humptulips (May 3, 2008)

35 years in the woods for me and I think I probably only ever seen a couple of guys wearing eye protection.


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## M.D. Vaden (May 3, 2008)

Ever wonder if these guy's insurance companies are watching, either looking for stuff, or casually watching and getting surprises at what they are insuring? 

It would be interesting to know if parts of their work are un-insurable, or if the logging companies bear whatever the cost is.


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## slowp (May 5, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Ever wonder if these guy's insurance companies are watching, either looking for stuff, or casually watching and getting surprises at what they are insuring?
> 
> It would be interesting to know if parts of their work are un-insurable, or if the logging companies bear whatever the cost is.



The employer pays, and pays through the nose. That is why going mechanized is popular. The payments on the processer or feller buncher often pencil out to be better than bodies and workman's comp. That is why safety is stressed and unsafe people are canned, accidents make rates go up even higher and safety inspectors swarm into an area when there is a fatality--fines get issued. Not good.


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## M.D. Vaden (May 5, 2008)

slowp said:


> The employer pays, and pays through the nose. That is why going mechanized is popular. The payments on the processer or feller buncher often pencil out to be better than bodies and workman's comp. That is why safety is stressed and unsafe people are canned, accidents make rates go up even higher and safety inspectors swarm into an area when there is a fatality--fines get issued. Not good.



So if that's for certain, it seems that an insurance company's inspector who was very good at sneaking in and observing, might be worth a good paycheck themselves.


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## slowp (May 5, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> So if that's for certain, it seems that an insurance company's inspector who was very good at sneaking in and observing, might be worth a good paycheck themselves.



Not a good idea to be sneaking around on a logging job. It is best to be visible, otherwise you could get a tree dropped on you, or get messed up by the lines, etc. Not intentionally either. Most things can be seen simply by showing up, finding out what is going on, where the lines are, where falling operations are, and where you can SAFELY venture about.


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## Humptulips (May 6, 2008)

Slowp,
Not been my experience that safety is a top concern for most employers. mostly it's a blame game with the employee being at the bottom of the totem pole. They will weigh you down with some extra safety gear, make you walk farther to get in the clear but after a few days when they find out it has slowed production a lot of stuff gets ignored. Don't get me wrong, no one making you do anything blatantly unsafe. It's just a matter of crowding things a little.
Also, It seems like a rare case when a safety inspector actually knows much about logging. They're great for checking your tin hat, looking for chaps and hearing protection but if it's going to cost the company some money,well. Worn lines for sure seem to get a pass.
I been tending hook for about 30 years and I could tell you some horror stories. Never had a fatality on the crew although I've taken a couple of trips in the ambulance myself. I can only think of one close to a fatality and it was fellow that wasn't even on the crew. A mechanic standing where he shouldn't have been on the landing.
One time in Alaska I refused to take the crew to work in the morning because we had no stretcher, blanket, first aid kit or way to contact camp in an emergency. No transportation either! The owner told me "If you get hurt up there you will probably die anyway". How's that for safety consience?
I've mostly worked for gypos so I can't speak for the bigger outfits. Probably a different story there. Just what I've seen.


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## slowp (May 6, 2008)

I see totally see different attitudes with different outfits. But the majority that I deal with are pretty safety concious mainly because of the insurance rate increase. It did used to be pretty crazy here in the past though. Then the summer hit when several loggers were killed and the safety people swarmed in and fines were handed out right and left. That was when the big stuff was being logged. Now we just have thinning operations going and I am one of those "foresters" who checks on things. I go over where everything is before I head down or up into the brush. Got hurt a couple of years ago (and it is still bothersome) when I outran a tree. I *thought* everybody knew I was there. The tree hit dead center where I had been standing too. That's why I encourage anybody not to be sneaking about. Even when one is wearing a bright vest and hat, accidents (hooktenders ) happen. I do realize that conditions differ regionally. I think I'd rather work around these guys though.


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## Humptulips (May 6, 2008)

Slowp,
I did that cable thinning thing for about 5 years. It is a lot slower which probably helps with the safety aspect. Reduced expectations. I'm down in Grays Harbor and there is not that much thinning going on here now. The out fits I worked for pretty much lost their jobs when the tax laws changed.
I know industrial insurance rates are crazy high but fines don't even enter in to it. It's been 3 years since I've seen a safety inspector. I probably average seeing one every 5 years so maybe were about due. Usually when one shows up they give you a talking to about a few things they would like to see changed, say they will be back to check on them and you never see them again. I can't say that we ever got a fine except for maybe the chaser not wearing his chaps or eye protection.
I will say the worst injury I ever received was thinning. Cleaning up one of those cutters jackpots.


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## slowp (May 7, 2008)

I haven't seen one out on a sale ever. Just came across the aftermath of a visit during the year when they hit here. We had 4 guys killed in the woods and 4 more killed in a crummy wreck that year. Last year, a safety guy was apparently recreating in the area and left his card stuck in the door of a yarder. I noticed that the chaser was wearing a flourescent orange vest as well as chaps and other little things were apparent, like the stretcher was out and not buried in the crummy. That leaving of the card made all that happen. The anticipated visit never happened. Just the business card.


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## Humptulips (May 7, 2008)

Yea, that anticipated visit will keep everybody real safety consience for a week or two. I know a week or two was about all that gung ho safety attitude would last for a visit by one. To tell you the truth I never could see where it actually improved the safety record. Most of the serious accidents or close calls I've seen were caused by either lack of experience or fatigue. I know I been there. It's late in the day, you're short handed, tired and you fail to go that extra couple steps.
You mentioning that stretcher being out reminds me of a funny story or at least funny in retrospect. It has to do with my worst injury. I had my leg crushed by a log. Kind of a wierd deal how it happened. It's a long story so I probably shouldn't bore you with that story but afterwards everybody seem to go into a panic. It hurt like the ####ens but I seemed to be the only one with my wits about me. Finally had to yell at the guys and tell them to sit down for a minute and calm down. Then I delegated stuff for each guy to do. They never did find the stretcher. It was behind the seat in the crummy covered by rain clothes. I thought the engineer was going to have a heart attack. Wierd how people react.


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## windthrown (May 7, 2008)

I dunno about the AxMen show the last few eposides, and how those logging companies will be able to get insurance. The one guy had a Doug fir limb fall on the mechanical harvester and it went right through the bullet proof lexan. If it was a tad smaller and/or an inch over, it would have killed the operator. The last show had the guys hurling the lines casting with the yoder again, and nearly hit the guy when he got his foot stuck. I mean, really not smart. Also the newbie logger never wears any eye protection. Lots of missing eye proteciton on that show, and from their hearing impairments, seemingly not so much hearing protection either. 

And yarding in the deep snow? I have never seen that here. Or even up around there. I have done a lot of off-road mud runs up there in winter, and few trucks are out that time of year from cuts. They usually load up piles near paved roads around then. Farther south here, usually by that time of year the crews all pack up for the winter. Only one winter was mild enough here about 4 years ago for them to work through the rainy season. It gets too muddy and impossible to get equipment moving that time of year and the trucks will not go in, lest they get stuck or lose traction and roll off the cliffs in the mud. It will be interesting to see them work in the hurricane next week. They seem to be pushing it to insane extremes. Hollywood style.


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## Humptulips (May 7, 2008)

Windthrown,
I spent many a day on the rigging in the snow. What they were working in is hardly worth mentioning. I can't even imagine shutting things down because of rain. Spend a few days working in waist deep snow and you begin to doubt your sanity for ever becoming a logger. I actually logged a setting up in Alaska in snow that was hitting me right at the shoulders and I'm 6'. Stupid you say, crazy you say. You would be correct but we did it just the same.
As for that casting the line with the yoder ( a term I never heard untill that show) That is a bit much, almost wonder if they did that just for the cameras.
The thing that I really notice is they are only flying 2 chokers most of the time. In my experience that would get you a one way trip to the unemployment line.


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## slowp (May 7, 2008)

Let me see, the winter of 06/07







Doesn't look like a lot of snow, but if I stepped out of the footprints or untracked, I went up to my hips. (I am a short 5'4")Trying to walk in the brush is not fun at all in deep snow. You got to feel or walk by braille cuz you may be up on a log and the next step go into a hole. I marked out the corridors using snowshoes.
I worked down by Klamath Falls when they had a record snowfall. You either wore snowshoes, or kept on the packed trails cuz it was 5 feet deep. They hired snow shovelers for the cutters. 

The roads are plowed by the crew, log trucks chain up, equipment gets grousers welded onto the tracks if they have to walk it on the icy roads. I usually end up making cookies to pay off somebody who got me unstuck. The Oregon logger (these are his two guys) got hurt pretty bad when his loader slid off the road and crashed with him in it. 

A good fit was had when the D-7 went to pull out an empty log truck, and the D-7 started sliding into the log truck. The owner/truckdriver assured the cat operator that the bumper would be easily fixed or replaced because it looked like there was no way the cat could move without ripping the bumper. The operator went to work and got it out unscratched after all. Winter logging is a major PAIN. 

It has been a boring winter, but I'm kind of glad nobody logged this winter. We had way more snow.


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## windthrown (May 8, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Windthrown,
> I spent many a day on the rigging in the snow. What they were working in is hardly worth mentioning. I can't even imagine shutting things down because of rain. Spend a few days working in waist deep snow and you begin to doubt your sanity for ever becoming a logger.



Well, they do not plow all the paved roads here, and the BLM and other logging roads are not attended at all in winter. Even with just a foot of snow here there is no way in or out of the woods (or even this house) on the highways. I have never seen any local crews work or truck in snow. Also they do not stop logging just becasue of the rain, they stop working after the rains have saturated the hillsides. Usually around the end of November they all pack it in here. We live in what is called the Tyee Geological Zone, and floods and mudslides are a particular problem, as the water builds up on the shallow rock and sandstone layers, and has no place to go. The stopping and starting time varies from year to year, based on weather. We are in a rainforest here, and get over 80 inches of rain a year on average, and usually from October through April. This year is below average with a mere 65 inches. 

Just my observations. The local paved spur highway to nowhere goes through this property from a huge logging area (several townships in size), and we see and hear any trucks that roll through, as well as all the yarding and dozing equipment heading up and back on trailers. I can tell what and where they are logging by seeing the loads and hearing yarding whistles. They usually stop at the straighaway here to check the chains and tie-downs before heading onto the main highways to the mills. There was a hooker from town that was busted working our stretch here 3 years ago (it was really busy back then). Of course the flip side is the fire season in summer. Restrictions vary from year to year, but often times they stop all logging and flip to hoot owl falling and grading, putting in culverts and rocking roads to and from the areas for the next few years of cutting. 

But cutting and yarding in waist deep snow seems... insane to me. Never mind food deep snow. It will be interesting to see what they have filmed of the hurricane this Sunday. The blowdown from that storm was insane, and it closed highway 26 until just after Christmas (almost a month).


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## slowp (May 8, 2008)

The cutting had been done before it got too deep. The cutters were smart.
They talked the boss into changing his plans and going down to a lower elevation unit after that one was yarded, where there was only about 6 inches of snow. The lower unit was in what I call The Transition Zone where it might snow and be gone the next day. And it went. This year, it would have had a lot of snow on it--3 feet or so until a couple weeks ago. Today we could see that the snowmelt has sped up a bit, maybe get to the higher stuff in July? Oh, except it was snowing at 2300 feet this morning but didn't stick.


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## Humptulips (May 8, 2008)

Windthrown,
I think I have an idea what you are dealing with. I've spent some time on the Siletz and the slide potential is obvious. I have an idea it is similar to the Umpqua.
Perhaps we have a better supply of gravel but our roads hold up fine in the rain. At my house we get 140 to 180 inches a year of rain with occasional years a bit more.
You are very right about it being insane to log in deep snow. I could never figure where the economics to it are. It seems like some companies are bound and determined to bull through the bad weather no matter the consequences. It certainly slows things down and it is impossible to find every log. I've received more then one tongue lashing from the compliance guy after the snow melted. What are you to do though when the owner says go to work? Oh, and it is up to the loggers to plow their own roads.
Once after a particularly bad snow fall and three days of plowing with a D8 and a scoop we went back to work up on a place they call Stove Pipe pass. I had a new crew and the snow on the top of the pass was higher then the top of the crew bus. You should have seen the paniced look on those new guys faces. Luckily we went down the other side where the snow was only about 3 feet deep. Bad enough to be sure.
That bad wind storm last winter really hit here too. 50 million feet down on the ridge behind my house. All forest serice and a roadless area thanks to Bill Clinton. I doubt any of it will every be taken out.


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## slowp (May 9, 2008)

I went out with our hazard tree cutting guys yesterday after going through a frustrating time of getting them. The hazard tree was a root sprung doug hanging up in another one. There were 2 other smaller trees also in the mess.
Anyway, they looked at the trees and one said the other could do the cutting cuz he was the a** man. It was cute because these two have worked together for 24 years. I heard the phrase that I thought I'd hear on how to get the tree down, "put a face cut in this tree, back cut, run like he**." The main tree hung for a bit after the back cut, and creaked and cracked and took a few minutes to go over. I couldn't find my camera.


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