# Dangerous Tree Comes Down



## Bushmans (Dec 29, 2013)

We were cutting some dead ash today and came across this guy. It had a horizontal crack about 5 foot up the tree.
We were not sure how far the crack came through the tree so it was decided to cut the wedge above the crack. We didn't want the tree to break in half once it started to move. A strong lean to the left didn't help matters.
In hindsight I think we should have cut it down at the base like normal. This is an example of how things can go wrong when cutting a tree. I'm just glad he got it on the ground without getting hurt. Trees are so unpredictable! It pinched down on it's own wedge before it could come out.
I wish I had come across this particular situation in all my time here on AS. 



It filled up the truck!


----------



## Bushmans (Dec 29, 2013)

The stump







Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## demc570 (Dec 29, 2013)

nice video,glad no one got hurt,thanks for sharing!!!!


----------



## ash man (Dec 29, 2013)

Tough one. Like you said probably hind sight being 20-20 probably should have tackled that tree a little lower, not to be cutting at head level. Over the last 11 years I've got tons of dead ash hung up in a tight wood I have been cutting out of. Scarey to.


----------



## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2013)

Glad to see/hear everything went well. 

I'm not much for turning away from a challenge, but I've passed up a few questionable trees in the middle of nowhere. I also passed on taking down a 60' elm in my front yard yesterday as it just didn't feel right.

No shame in leaving one upright. 

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## demc570 (Dec 29, 2013)

well as for me speaking of my self,i think i know where its going and whats going to happen,but sometimes they do the opposite,and i not a professional by no means!!! i remember one time my brother and i cleared some ground for his lake,and he pushed some dog woods and others in a pile...when we got done i decided to cut some of the dogwood for firewood,it had what looked like small bend to it,so i started cutting,abouut half way thru my gut said step back and cut the rest of the cut with tip of bar,and i started to finish the cut and bamm that thing had so much force on it,it snapped sprung out and just grazed my jeans at the knee cap,it would of been bad day,if i didnt listen to my gut feeling'


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 29, 2013)

Bushmans said:


> The stump
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ummm -- that's a really ugly stump. Especially on a sketchy snag.

Do you always farmer cut?

It's never a good idea to beaver like that on a sound tree, let alone a snag. Y'all should leave them one's alone, and go after the easy ones.

Glad nobody died!


----------



## ash man (Dec 29, 2013)

Bushman. I've got a big 5-6' at the base white oak left to cut at a buddies place I'm clearing for him to farm. I saved it for last cause I think its hollow and my 7900 only has a 28" bar and I'm going to have to go at it from all angles. Im not real comfortabe with doing it, but im obligated to cut it down. I [ATT
ACH=full]324912[/ATTACH] feel your pain.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 29, 2013)

It is hard to tell and I wasn't there, but it looked like something went rather wrong with the face cut - tried to make it too deep and it was too high, leading to a dutchman? I used to make quite a few dutchmen, but I started marking my lines on the tree and it has helped. They're dropping more accurately and leaving an even hinge.


----------



## c5rulz (Dec 29, 2013)

To OP,

Glad you didn't get hurt.

I don't know what to say or where to start regarding that stump. But you finished it off in style with the sloping back cut.opcorn:


----------



## Bushmans (Dec 29, 2013)

The crack in the tree was right across from the face cut. It went through2bfar enough that it acted as a back cut. We never farmer cut but in this instance it was used to help keep the tree from slipping off backwards. Wasnt sure what to do at that point

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## zogger (Dec 29, 2013)

Certainly a strange tree. I honestly can't say how I would do it, even with the vids and pics. I know I don't like lifting a saw and cutting high though.


----------



## cantoo (Dec 29, 2013)

I also am on the fence about cutting high like that. I cut a big rotten maple down a couple of years ago and everyone there suggested I cut it high. I was not comfortable cutting something up close to my face so I cut it at normal height. There was hardly any sound wood left but the tree fell perfectly, well perfectly considering it was rotten. There are at least a dozen more like it to cut and I will likely cut them the same way. Just too many things to go wrong at that height and if they do your options are pretty limited. Some day they will make a remote control chainsaw or maybe a high hoe with an attachment on it that clamps on and cuts trees down.....


----------



## lfnh (Dec 29, 2013)

Yup.
Close call.
Slopping backcuts are of no value, specially for stumpshot.
Riparian + useless dead soft maple = wildlife tree.
Not worth the gas or a life.


----------



## bootboy (Dec 29, 2013)

Since it was fire wood, I would have walked away. 

If it NEEDED to come down, I would have brought a bigger bag of tricks. I would have put a binder on the trunk and gone with a much lower face and bore cut it. 

If the compromised part of the trunk was holding the weight of the tree, leave it alone. Cut it lower where there is less compromise and the chance of the your notch functioning the way it should is greater.

I can see the reasoning for the farmer cut, but think about this: if the tree had slipped back on the stump, even a little, it would have pinched your saw something fierce. Then what?

In the end, there is no advantage to the farmer cut.

Live and learn tho.


----------



## hseII (Dec 29, 2013)

ash man said:


> Bushman. I've got a big 5-6' at the base white oak left to cut at a buddies place I'm clearing for him to farm. I saved it for last cause I think its hollow and my 7900 only has a 28" bar and I'm going to have to go at it from all angles. Im not real comfortabe with doing it, but im obligated to cut it down. I [ATTView attachment 324912
> ACH=full]324912[/ATTACH] feel your pain.



Beg, Borrow, rent, or hire another saw.

Obligations are not worth getting hurt over


"100% of Home Invasions Occur in a Home" - Sharpsburg


----------



## slowp (Dec 29, 2013)

You are NEVER obligated to cut down a tree that you are uncomfortable about. That's like a Prime Directive.


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 29, 2013)

slowp said:


> You are NEVER obligated to cut down a tree that you are uncomfortable about. That's like a Prime Directive.







lfnh said:


> Yup.
> Close call.
> Slopping backcuts are of no value, specially for stumpshot.
> Riparian + useless dead soft maple = wildlife tree.
> Not worth the gas or a life.




THIS!^^^^^


----------



## Jim Timber (Dec 29, 2013)

Black powder?

I cringed watching that video, and I'm certainly no pro faller either.


----------



## slowp (Dec 29, 2013)

Two production fallers fell a tree that was splitting up from the roots. I watched and did traffic control. They took a wrapper and wrapped the tree above where they were going to cut-- they had a binder to tighten and hold it. The cutting was the fast part. They chose to cut it like a normal tree and it behaved as a normal tree and fell where they wanted it to go. 

It was a father and son team and both had years of experience as fallers.


----------



## pennsywoodburnr (Dec 29, 2013)

ash man said:


> Bushman. I've got a big 5-6' at the base white oak left to cut at a buddies place I'm clearing for him to farm. I saved it for last cause I think its hollow and my 7900 only has a 28" bar and I'm going to have to go at it from all angles. Im not real comfortabe with doing it, but im obligated to cut it down. I [ATTView attachment 324912
> ACH=full]324912[/ATTACH] feel your pain.


 
Ashman, what makes you think that big oak is hollow inside? My neighbor and I dropped a couple chestnut oaks at his place a couple weeks back and you could clearly see those were hollow because of a gaping hole that both trees had. I worked the bull rope to keep it from falling into his fence and he cut with the husky 445. Both trees he dropped weren't anywhere near as big as the one in that photo you put up, but you could see something was wrong with them. That white oak you put up looks pretty healthy though.


----------



## ash man (Dec 30, 2013)

I haven't inspected the white oak all that closely yet but the property owner said he thinks its hollow. Guess I'll find out when I start cutting it. I've probably cut and hauled 12-15 cords of that property and the deal was to take them all down. He's got a company coming in to grind the stumps down 18" below grade and he plans on farming the ground this spring. I've cut some big trees before, but not quite that big and that's probably why I'm apprehensive. Im sure it will work out. I will just be extra careful on this one.


----------



## Vibes (Dec 30, 2013)

"Get out of there Mike!!" Best advice I heard yet. At least you had the hard hat on. I dropped a dead ash this summer onto a paved driveway/ parking lot. It broke like glass when it hit. There were pieces of that tree on the roof of the house and they weren't there before the tree hit the ground. We covered all the windows with plywood before we dropped it. My buddy thought that was overkill. Boy was he wrong.

I'm burning that tree as I type this.


----------



## branchbuzzer (Dec 30, 2013)

A good reminder to always be honest with yourself about your skill level and the equipment you have to do the job with. If you're unsure about either, you probably don't.

Watching the pros work is important for learning the safest way to do it, but even more so for learning what one shouldn't be attempting to do.

I'm guessing if you were doing this in MI this was not your only source of standing dead ash so maybe letting this one alone would have been the wiser thing. All those dead ash trees are getting more and more brittle as time passes. Keep an eye out for dead limbs coming down as you cut, look up, look up, look up.


----------



## slowp (Dec 30, 2013)

Limbs can impale themselves in asphalt, and then the firewood can become expensive.


----------



## pennsywoodburnr (Dec 30, 2013)

ash man said:


> I haven't inspected the white oak all that closely yet but the property owner said he thinks its hollow. Guess I'll find out when I start cutting it. I've probably cut and hauled 12-15 cords of that property and the deal was to take them all down. He's got a company coming in to grind the stumps down 18" below grade and he plans on farming the ground this spring. I've cut some big trees before, but not quite that big and that's probably why I'm apprehensive. Im sure it will work out. I will just be extra careful on this one.


 Definitely take your time with that one. Is it pretty wide open with nothing around? Any time I have to eye up a tree for removal it's not uncommon for me to look it over for a good 10 minutes trying to plan out all scenarios in my head.


----------



## Vibes (Dec 30, 2013)

slowp said:


> Limbs can impale themselves in asphalt, and then the firewood can become expensive.


 Yea I know. But asphalt is cheaper than roofs. And cheaper than plywood

Keep an eye out for dead limbs coming down as you cut, look up, look up, look up.

I had a friend get hit in the head with a punky piece of wood that was a little bigger than a paper towel roller. It fell about 35 ft. It cracked his skull, and they were 65 miles from the nearest hospital. And 10 miles of that was out on a dirt mountain rd. He said every bump that they hit felt like someone cracking him in the head with a nightstick. He went into shock a long ways before he got to the ER. He is real lucky to have been able to tell that story. Good thing he wasn't alone.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 30, 2013)

slowp said:


> Two production fallers fell a tree that was splitting up from the roots. I watched and did traffic control. They took a wrapper and wrapped the tree above where they were going to cut-- they had a binder to tighten and hold it. The cutting was the fast part. They chose to cut it like a normal tree and it behaved as a normal tree and fell where they wanted it to go.
> 
> It was a father and son team and both had years of experience as fallers.


Any suggestions as to what to use for a binder strap?


----------



## zogger (Dec 30, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> Any suggestions as to what to use for a binder strap?




I have used length of chain (my generic long tow chain) and also quite a few wraps of heavy rope. Last two big trees I did like that, my lightning hit oak. the secvond one I cut, glad I chained it up. chained it in two places, one high from a ladder then right above my felling cuts. That sucker was all sortsa cracked all through it.

I guess some guys use real heavy ratchet straps.


----------



## slowp (Dec 30, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> Any suggestions as to what to use for a binder strap?


 I have some that were given to me to use on alder, out in the shop. Spotted Owl gave them to me at a GTG. It is chain. The fallers also used chain. I'll try to remember to take a picture. The shop is a cold and damp building this time of year.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 30, 2013)

zogger said:


> I have used length of chain (my generic long tow chain) and also quite a few wraps of heavy rope. Last two big trees I did like that, my lightning hit oak. the secvond one I cut, glad I chained it up. chained it in two places, one high from a ladder then right above my felling cuts. That sucker was all sortsa cracked all through it.
> 
> I guess some guys use real heavy ratchet straps.





slowp said:


> I have some that were given to me to use on alder, out in the shop. Spotted Owl gave them to me at a GTG. It is chain. The fallers also used chain. I'll try to remember to take a picture. The shop is a cold and damp building this time of year.


OK, I thought about chain, but a heavy cargo tie down would allow one to cinch it up more.

Mostly I let stuff like that stand so the critters can have at it. I have plenty of other stuff to burn. I've been watching a split and rotten one for years now - it's made it through our Halloween storm and Hurricane Sandy and several other ice and wind events. I have no idea what keeps it up, but I wouldn't even tap the thing with an axe at this point.


----------



## ash man (Dec 30, 2013)

Pennsy the big oak is in a big open spot and has a ever so slight lean to it. If its not hollow I will feel pretty comfortable felling i with my 7900. I might get a chance to drop it latter this week. I will take some pics and update you all. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## bootboy (Dec 30, 2013)

You can use a heavy duty 3" ratchet strap. Most are rated to about 10,000 lbs. put 2 wraps on it and call it good.


----------



## Hinerman (Dec 30, 2013)

Wow. I am surprised you haven't been flamed more than you have. Either AS is getting soft or the pros in the forestry and logging forum haven't showed up in force yet. I do not claim to be a pro; in fact, I am novice at best, but: face cut too deep, wedge not completed or removed before making back cut, sloping back cut, cutting at eye level.....Glad nobody got hurt. Be safe.


----------



## nk14zp (Dec 30, 2013)

cantoo said:


> I also am on the fence about cutting high like that. I cut a big rotten maple down a couple of years ago and everyone there suggested I cut it high. I was not comfortable cutting something up close to my face so I cut it at normal height. There was hardly any sound wood left but the tree fell perfectly, well perfectly considering it was rotten. There are at least a dozen more like it to cut and I will likely cut them the same way. Just too many things to go wrong at that height and if they do your options are pretty limited. Some day they will make a remote control chainsaw or maybe a high hoe with an attachment on it that clamps on and cuts trees down.....


They do we call them fellerbunchers.


----------



## woodchuck357 (Dec 30, 2013)

Tree wasn't dangerous until the cutting started. If you work at it most trees can be made into dangerous ones. 
A notch with the chunk left in just is not a notch! Sloping felling cut will do nothing to keep a tree from jumping back off the stump, but neither will making the felling cut a few inches higher than the apex of the notch and I see lots of people recommending that. 
The sloping back cut causes no problems, other than being a longer cut, unless you need to wedge the tree over then it may split out as a chip rather than tip the tree over.


----------



## woodchuck357 (Dec 30, 2013)

ash man said:


> Bushman. I've got a big 5-6' at the base white oak left to cut at a buddies place I'm clearing for him to farm. I saved it for last cause I think its hollow and my 7900 only has a 28" bar and I'm going to have to go at it from all angles. Im not real comfortabe with doing it, but im obligated to cut it down. I [ATTView attachment 324912
> ACH=full]324912[/ATTACH] feel your pain.


 Assuming the tree is hollow, notch it wide in the direction of the lean about one third of the way thru the tree. Leaving about a 4" hinge on one side bore in, then saw around almost to the middle of the back side. Bore in from the other side also leaving a hinge, then cut around toward the back completing the felling cut. 
Trees growing in the open often have wide spreading strong branches that may spring the tree back or to the side, so step away smartly when it starts over.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't understand all the dicking around with the back cut.


----------



## AKDoug (Dec 30, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Assuming the tree is hollow, notch it wide in the direction of the lean about one third of the way thru the tree. Leaving about a 4" hinge on one side bore in, then saw around almost to the middle of the back side. Bore in from the other side also leaving a hinge, then cut around toward the back completing the felling cut.
> Trees growing in the open often have wide spreading strong branches that may spring the tree back or to the side, so step away smartly when it starts over.


This. Did that tree close up tight on the wedge in the face cut? If not, an axe to beat it out would have been a wise choice.


----------



## nk14zp (Dec 30, 2013)

After watching the vid all I can say is that is not how I would have done it.


----------



## NYTREECLIMBER (Dec 30, 2013)

Noobs 


Sent from My Barrett 50cal.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 30, 2013)

Hinerman said:


> Wow. I am surprised you haven't been flamed more than you have. Either AS is getting soft or the pros in the forestry and logging forum haven't showed up in force yet. I do not claim to be a pro; in fact, I am novice at best, but: face cut too deep, wedge not completed or removed before making back cut, sloping back cut, cutting at eye level.....Glad nobody got hurt. Be safe.


Flaming is just to make the "flamer" feel important, there are other ways to teach that are much more effective. I'm betting the OP has already learned a few significant things that were done wrong and will use a better approach next time.


----------



## Hinerman (Dec 30, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> Flaming is just to make the "flamer" feel important, there are other ways to teach that are much more effective. I'm betting the OP has already learned a few significant things that were done wrong and will use a better approach next time.


 
I agree. My point was---I have seen some of the professionals here be very harsh at times (for less than what I saw in the 1st post) with good intentions of course. Call it flaming, teaching, helping, tough love, or whatever you want. Some may, in fact, do it to make themselves feel important; but, some do it (flame, scold, chastise harshly) because that is the only way they know how. I like to think, that in the end, they do it because they care, which most of them do, regardless of the method.

Glad nobody got hurt, hopefully lessons were learned, and nobody shows up now to "flame" the OP.


----------



## Bushmans (Dec 30, 2013)

Just to clear up a few things. The tree was cracked horizontally and pinched down on the wedge. I did not cut this tree. Im the very nervous guy holding the camera. Once I saw the crack it was game over for me. I appreciate all the feedback and only posted this to hear what everyone else would have done. If anyone thinks I posted this and expected a bunch of atta boys then you may want to crack another schlitz and re-sharpen your chain. I haven't been cutting long but I know that my limitations. 
Had he not have seen the crack he would have cut normal and it probably would have fell just fine. 
Overthinking and inexperience with this type of scenario is what led to the odd cuts. 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## Vibes (Dec 30, 2013)

Bushmans said:


> Just to clear up a few things. The tree was cracked horizontally and pinched down on the wedge. I did not cut this tree. Im the very nervous guy holding the camera. Once I saw the crack it was game over for me. I appreciate all the feedback and only posted this to hear what everyone else would have done. If anyone thinks I posted this and expected a bunch of atta boys then you may want to crack another schlitz and re-sharpen your chain. I haven't been cutting long but I know that my limitations.
> Had he not have seen the crack he would have cut normal and it probably would have fell just fine.
> Overthinking and inexperience with this type of scenario is what led to the odd cuts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


 Schlitz? PBR please!!!


----------



## cantoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Bushman, I'm glad you posted the video, it helps those of us who weren't born with a chainsaw in our hands. Of course some of those guys were born with chainsaws up their azzes too and prove it by typing crap. I've posted a few pics before of a tree my bil cut down and it sure wasn't pretty. Nobody got hurt and he learned a lesson, I'm pretty sure he will listen to my observations a little better next time. I've cut lots of trees down and almost all have gone where I wanted them too but there was one or two that didn't and that's all it takes to ruin your day sometimes.
I spend a fair bit of time on utube watching trees gone wrong videos just so I can learn a thing or two.


----------



## bootboy (Dec 30, 2013)

I mean this in all seriousness.

Sometimes learning how not to do things can be a more effective method because it helps you to more fully comprehend potential consequences. It stimulates cause and effect or "if, and then" type critical thinking. I've learned my fair share of lessons the hard way, that's for sure.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 30, 2013)

bootboy said:


> I mean this in all seriousness.
> 
> Sometimes learning how not to do things can be a more effective method because it helps you to more fully comprehend potential consequences. It stimulates cause and effect or "if, and then" type critical thinking. I've learned my fair share of lessons the hard way, that's for sure.


LOL - Experience is what you get doing things you are not qualified to do. Of course, that's only if you survive - otherwise you become an example to others. It's good to be useful.


----------



## bootboy (Dec 30, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> LOL - Experience is what you get doing things you are not qualified to do. Of course, that's only if you survive - otherwise you become an example to others. It's good to be useful.



I'm not saying it's optimal or preferred. But it can be effective. I much prefer the safe routes. I prefer not to be the "useful" one.


----------



## Vermonster (Dec 30, 2013)

Felling trees, especially standing dead timber is always a game of chance. Thanks for the video.


----------



## lapeer20m (Dec 31, 2013)

When I have a big ugly tree that I can access with the machine, I like to use the backhoe to push it over after notching it and a little back cut depending in the tree. 

The power of the 14k pound 310a is amazing! But it is limited in where it can go.


----------



## woodenboater (Dec 31, 2013)

Vibes said:


> Schlitz? PBR please!!!



PBR ? damn that's what all the hipsters in my area drink in the city parks and I don't get it...I like me a Sapporo or Barking Squirrel


----------



## slowp (Dec 31, 2013)

Oh man. All the cliches! I can't take it.

OK, what drove me crazy about the video? I couldn't see a face cut. I assume there was one?
The guy had all the nice and pretty protective gear. He even had wedges. Why wasn't he using them? Where was his axe? That's as much a piece of safety equipment as that fancy hardhat.
He kept casually walking away, turning his back on the tree, grinning, while trying to hear what folks were yelling at him about.
Hint: Don't yell, throw rocks and sticks at the cutter or use a long stick to thump him on the hardhat with. (Read some of Randymac's threads where "Ray got my attention with a well aimed rock.") Rocks and sticks are also safety gear. He needs to turn off his saw, so he can hear you and any noises of doom from the tree. Don't turn your back on a tree like that.

Who owned the land? If it was me, I'd be thanking my lucky stars that nobody was hurt or killed and I'd be banning folks from any woodcutting. That looked like a lawsuit in the making.

The cutter needs to practice on sound, straightforward trees first and learn to use wedges, and not use Slopping Back Cuts.
Some of us were wondering if HBRN is now in Ohio...

I'm not a faller. I don't tackle any trees like that and I seldom fall any tree. I'm a retired forester and have seen some very skilled fallers work, and never anything like that on a timber operation.


----------



## esshup (Dec 31, 2013)

I've been cutting and dropping dying Oak and Sugar Maple trees on a clients property for the past few years. This year the forester marked 85 trees that need to be removed. Most are 16"-20" DBH but one Red Oak is 38" DBH. The guys here helped me a lot last year in recommending that I get a long bull rope to help direct the fall of the "difficult" trees. I think this could be used as a cinch rope too. I picked up 150' of 1/2" amsteel with thimbles on each end and a 15' long sleeve to protect the end that loops around the tree, some 3/4" clevis pins, a good throw line to get the bull rope up in the tree and a heavy duty pulley with another 15' of nylon bull rope to loop around an anchor tree. I'm fortunate enough to have a 65hp tractor to put tension on the amsteel, but a shorter piece of rope and a come along would work in a pinch if I didn't have the tractor. I put moderate tension on the rope, make my face cut, then apply more tension, then do the back cut. If the tree is leaning away from where I want it to go, I make sure I'm not alone and I have someone in the tractor that is putting more and more tension on the tree as I'm cutting. I'm not an expert by any means, but I feel a LOT more comfortable cutting trees down after being on here and doing a lot of reading and asking questions. On this property alone I think the marked trees this year will put me over 300 trees dropped and cleaned up.

Typically I'll have the trees drop where I want them to go without the rope. If one doesn't, I'll stop and try to figure out why it didn't. If that happens twice in a day, I'll pack it up and go home because that means that I'm too tired to think clearly. I'd rather lose wages than have an oopsie or possibly something worse.


----------



## Jim Timber (Dec 31, 2013)

I have dual winches on my atv for the same reason. If I need to guide a fall, I strap to it and if the tree is big enough, I tie off with the other winch to lock the machine in place.

This has worked great for directing trees against their leans and keeping them from falling sideways, etc. The atv always stays behind other trees to protect it and me from accidents.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Dec 31, 2013)

> OK, I thought about chain, but a heavy cargo tie down would allow one to cinch it up more.



As bootboy mentioned, wrap the strap around the trunk multiple times.

You want the strap to take the force as the tree starts to split. If you just go around once, the ratchet will take it...and they ain't made to take it.

=========
My own land and knowing it's extremely unlikely for anyone to be around them...I've left bad trees for the wind to finish up. Had a pinched bar once and knowing there was a big storm coming in that night, just walked back up the next morning after the tree put itself on the ground to retrieve it. Not my preferred option, but sometimes it's the most reasonable and safest.

A few years ago I might have beavered up something like that. Today I would've strapped the trunk and cut it normal height.


----------



## zogger (Dec 31, 2013)

slowp said:


> Oh man. All the cliches! I can't take it.
> 
> OK, what drove me crazy about the video? I couldn't see a face cut. I assume there was one?
> The guy had all the nice and pretty protective gear. He even had wedges. Why wasn't he using them? Where was his axe? That's as much a piece of safety equipment as that fancy hardhat.
> ...



I was reading about this new age type of falling..they hire an 'ologist and they just stand there and harangue the tree down....


----------



## Jim Timber (Dec 31, 2013)

Just get a Drill Sergeant to shame it to the ground. They practice yelling at trees, so they probably get pretty good at it after 2 years.


----------



## Bushmans (Dec 31, 2013)

Cliche????
Are you implying that this is an overused and boring topic because it had been posted so many times or do you just not understand the definition of cliche? 
There was a face cut. Albeit to deep. The cut closed and pinched down on the wedge that otherwise would have fell out. 
This is stage where the constructive criticism is needed. Who owns the land and how you wouldn't let anyone cut is not pertinent information. 
As far as the sloping back cut? Judging by all the stumps I see around it is the most popular cut. In fact until I joined AS I used it. People just need to be educated. I will do my part and pass the info along. Again this video was posted so everyone could offer constructive criticism. There are many, many people on here that glean info off this site and this is a great learning tool. 
Thank you for the pointers on getting the cutters attention. I do appreciate those kind of tips. 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## Zale (Dec 31, 2013)

I always cringe when I see someone cutting at neck level. Very bad idea. Overall, I give it a D-. Its on the ground and everyone goes home.


----------



## woodguy105 (Dec 31, 2013)

Qu'est-ce que c'est... farmers cut??


----------



## slowp (Dec 31, 2013)

Wasn't talking about the subject being a cliche. Some of the replies are, including my own. Bushmans, if you can't handle criticism, don't post a video of a scary, badly done, hack job. That's what it was.

Now, if you really wanted "tips" the place to post it would have been the Forestry Logging Forum. That's where a few genuine "pro" fallers and loggers still exist.


----------



## ash man (Dec 31, 2013)

Tough crowd. Lol


----------



## zogger (Dec 31, 2013)

slowp said:


> Wasn't talking about the subject being a cliche. Some of the replies are, including my own. Bushmans, if you can't handle criticism, don't post a video of a scary, badly done, hack job. That's what it was.
> 
> Now, if you really wanted "tips" the place to post it would have been the Forestry Logging Forum. That's where a few genuine "pro" fallers and loggers still exist.




He has gotten some good advice, etc here so far. Some serious criticism and alternatives have been offered. 

F& L, from a firewood guys perspective, is just asking for abuse.


----------



## cantoo (Dec 31, 2013)

There is a reason he put it here, it's because he wanted to. Last I checked that was his choice to make and maybe he expected more help here. I'm bettin a lot of us wood cutters don't go anywhere near the Forestry Logging Forum just for that reason. We're firewood cutters not guys would cut trees for a living. Don't worry I'm sure Bushman has no plans of moving anywhere else.


----------



## slowp (Dec 31, 2013)

Here's some good falling except don't do what he's doing on the last tree--walk in front of it. This guy is the real deal. There's lots of wedging and he's making trees go the way they are not inclined to go--they are backleaners.


----------



## Vermonster (Dec 31, 2013)

slowp said:


> Here's some good falling except don't do what he's doing on the last tree--walk in front of it. This guy is the real deal. There's lots of wedging and he's making trees go the way they are not inclined to go--they are backleaners.



You're kidding right? Trying to compare falling super straight little hand planted evergreens on flat land to EAB infected trees on undulating hard wood forests. That's just silly.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 31, 2013)

My, look at those nice, straight trees, clear woods with wide spaces and lack of underbrush & obstacles. Sure doesn't look anything like PA! 

Conditions vary, as do the purposes of the people cutting wood. There's no way most home firewood gatherers are going to have the skills, experience or equipment that professional loggers do. That doesn't mean there's nothing for a firewood guy to learn from professional loggers, but neither is it necessary to gain that level of proficiency to be safe and effective.


----------



## Bushmans (Dec 31, 2013)

Its not about ME handling criticism. I'm not the guy cutting down the tree! I simply wanted to hear opinions on cutting this tree. For God's sake man I would never post a video of myself cutting down a tree and let every Tom, **** and Harry arm chair my awful cutting techniques. I prefer to cut em when they're already on the ground. I'm a wood BURNER not a wood cutter! LOL. 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Dec 31, 2013)

woodguy105 said:


> Qu'est-ce que c'est... farmers cut??



It's what some here call it when the back cut is sloping.

Usually done by folks who realize they don't want the tree to slip off the stump and come back at them...but don't realize the place to prevent that from happening is making a proper notch at the front.


----------



## ash man (Dec 31, 2013)

One the better guys to watch felling trees is hot saws 101 I think is his YouTube name. Guys amazing to watch.


----------



## bootboy (Dec 31, 2013)

Dalmatian90 said:


> It's what some here call it when the back cut is sloping.
> 
> Usually done by folks who realize they don't want the tree to slip off the stump and come back at them...but don't realize the place to prevent that from happening is making a proper notch at the front.




Or because they just know that some cuts are angled... They just don't know which ones and why. So they slope all 3, or 4 or however many sloping cuts from all different sides and angles it takes to get a tree on the ground.


----------



## lfnh (Dec 31, 2013)

Bushmans said:


> Its not about ME handling criticism. I'm not the guy cutting down the tree! I simply wanted to hear opinions on cutting this tree. For God's sake man I would never post a video of myself cutting down a tree and let every Tom, **** and Harry arm chair my awful cutting techniques. I prefer to cut em when they're already on the ground. I'm a wood BURNER not a wood cutter! LOL.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


 
Dead punky rotten trees should go to the grave alone. They don't need help with that.

plan A was in trouble just as top face cut was made. should have stopped then.

That tree committed on face cut and stalled. Violated rule 1. No, make that rule 0.
Lucky the cutter wasn't bombed from all that dead top (the stuff that shattered on the crash)

If it was a soild tree,

0. Not swamped out
1. Face and back cutts were made in line of fire, not safe side
2. Shallow faces can be re-trued. If needed.
3. Face cuts missed. see 2. Clean em up.
4. Too long to make 3 cuts.
5. Stay with the back cut until that stem is fully committed, bail on your clear exit, not stright back
6. don't go back and forth looking for trouble
7. forget the "chillin by the stump" as it tips

jmo


----------



## Nuzzy (Dec 31, 2013)

Bushmans said:


> Its not about ME handling criticism. I'm not the guy cutting down the tree! I simply wanted to hear opinions on cutting this tree.





Lots of good points already made, and yes, a tree can always be left standing if too dangerous. If it were me, I would cut in the most solid looking part I could find within a comfortable height range. If the crack was big and through, I would try to bind if I had the stuff available. I'd try for a standard depth face and get that face wedge out before continuing. Considering the tree was moving forward into the face (hence not needing to drive wedges), I'd put on the longest bar with the sharpest chain on the biggest saw I had and try to get through a level (and slightly raised from face) backcut as quick as I could, hopefully keeping a bit of space between me and the tree (as in, not dawged in right up next to it). I'd be listening for any crack or pop, assuming something might blow out in the trunk, and be ready to jump/dive/run/whatever. I don't make it a practice to dawdle around danger trees, so I'd be making chips fly rather than stopping and starting over and over.


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 31, 2013)

IMO, any advice given in this thread, besides you and your bud NOT touching that tree, or any like it. . . Is BAD advice.

That tree was waaaay above the pay grade of anyone I saw/heard in that video. You don't challenge Jeff Gordon to a race, when you just got your license from the DMV. These kind of trees are man killers, not "Neat practice trees".

Sorry to be blunt, but you seem to be fairly lackadaisical about the video and the experience -- which points to your inexperience.

Here's a picture of a snag that tried to pound my head into the ground last fall. It was burning 10' up, and the IC trainee called me on the radio to come drop it. By the time I got below it to hike up, it snapped off and was fix'n to whack-o-mole my butt. Running and luck were on my side that afternoon.

I was part of a saw team cutting snags on a fire. It was on thick, steep ground, with more hazards than I care to talk about. And I can tell you, I wouldn't have put steel to wood on the snag in your video, just for the sake of firewood.

Take this advice as constructive.

~Nate


----------



## Nuzzy (Dec 31, 2013)

Metals406 said:


> IMO, any advice given in this thread, besides you and your bud NOT touching that tree, or any like it. . . Is BAD advice.
> 
> That tree was waaaay above the pay grade of anyone I saw/heard in that video... ...And I can tell you, I wouldn't have put steel to wood on the snag in your video, just for the sake of firewood.




I don't disagree at all.

But, he did ask opinions on how others would get it down. If no one shared thoughts or experiences, it would make it pretty tough to learn. Hopefully the take away is recognizing the severity of the situation, and that leaving trees is perfectly valid. 

Cat faced, broken, and rotten based trees (and dead snags) may seem like great fire wood opportunities because they're not healthy; unfortunately they're often the most dangerous to cut. If a sloping backcut is tucked away in one's arsenal of tricks, the aforementioned trees should really be strictly off limits...


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 31, 2013)

Nuzzy said:


> I don't disagree at all.
> 
> But, he did ask opinions on how others would get it down. If no one shared thoughts or experiences, *it would make it pretty tough to learn.* Hopefully the take away is recognizing the severity of the situation, and that leaving trees is perfectly valid.
> 
> Cat faced, broken, and rotten based trees (and dead snags) may seem like great fire wood opportunities because they're not healthy; unfortunately they're often the most dangerous to cut. If a sloping backcut is tucked away in one's arsenal of tricks, the aforementioned trees should really be strictly off limits...



Therein lies the problem with the internet -- AS or any other forum for that matter -- is the wrong place to learn snag falling. Snags are reserved for Alpha Timberbeasts for a reason. And the reason they're considered the cream of the crop timber fallers, is because they're still alive and know when to say no.

Telling Bushmans to not do it, is the only sound advice that can be given on here.

BTW, the video posted earlier is of my pard Cody. He's one hell of a faller; so much so, that I don't feel I'm qualified to lace his boots. That don't mean I copy what I see him do in a video, cause I know he's a badass. I wait until we can be working together, or just out cut'n for sport. There's no replacement for displacement, and there's no replacement for 1 on 1 instruction.

Happy New Year fellas -- make it a safe one! 


.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 1, 2014)

The first thing I would have done would have been to undercut the face cut, that way the wedge would drop out when freed or pinched out (maybe) in this case.
I cut very few higher than my waist unless it is necessary to aid in stump removal.
The other thing I would have done, is after the tree started moving during the back cut and stopped, I'd have gone to the house and had a cup of coffee and checked AS for a while, or gone OUT OF THE AREA to another tree or cleanup and let it determine if it wanted to go ahead and fall. They often do, especially if there is any breeze or bright sun on a cold day.
Youens just flame away, I cut on a farm that doesn't belong to me and have cut several that I wasn't enthused about but the farmer needed them down. Sometimes you have to do that to maintain your welcome.


Mike


----------



## lfnh (Jan 1, 2014)

Back at ya, Nate. Hope the coming year is good to you.
Best of 2014 to rest of AS


----------



## Vermonster (Jan 1, 2014)

Walk away from that one and leave it for the pileated woodpeckers. Wild life snags have value.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> The first thing I would have done would have been to undercut the face cut, that way the wedge would drop out when freed or pinched out (maybe) in this case.
> I cut very few higher than my waist unless it is necessary to aid in stump removal.
> The other thing I would have done, is after the tree started moving during the back cut and stopped, I'd have gone to the house and had a cup of coffee and checked AS for a while, or gone OUT OF THE AREA to another tree or cleanup and let it determine if it wanted to go ahead and fall. They often do, especially if there is any breeze or bright sun on a cold day.
> Youens just flame away, I cut on a farm that doesn't belong to me and have cut several that I wasn't enthused about but the farmer needed them down. Sometimes you have to do that to maintain your welcome.
> ...



Dang it Mike, I don't do my own flaming, I hire Ol Randy Mac fer that. ;-)

Happy New Year to ya!


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 1, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all the responses. Unfortunately trees like this one will be cut down forever by plenty of inexperienced people. Some will not go as planned. This tree is in my wood pile but if I would have had to fell it then it would still be there. I have only felled maybe 20 trees in my saw time. I take the easy ones. It's easy to sit back and say leave everything to the professionals but you know it ain't gonna happen. I almost wish you needed a license to own a chainsaw and that would at least require a few hours of basic training. No one taught me howbto cut a tree down. It's all self taught. Mostly from here and some reading I have done. 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 1, 2014)

Nuzzy said:


> I don't disagree at all.
> 
> But, he did ask opinions on how others would get it down. If no one shared thoughts or experiences, it would make it pretty tough to learn. Hopefully the take away is recognizing the severity of the situation, and that leaving trees is perfectly valid.
> 
> Cat faced, broken, and rotten based trees (and dead snags) may seem like *great fire wood opportunities because they're not healthy; unfortunately they're often the most dangerous to cut*. If a sloping backcut is tucked away in one's arsenal of tricks, the aforementioned trees should really be strictly off limits...



99.9% of the trees I cut down are standing dead. The only live tree I fell is one that the landowner wants removed, at most 2 or 3 a year. And I have been doing this for over 35 years, 75 to 90 full cords each year. I've not been injured once, knock on wood. 

This is the difference between logging and firewood cutting. My job is to go in and remove the dead, and down trees, including the snags and spars. I wouldn't be out there long if I was cutting the guys live trees now, would I! I have equipment I use in the woods which helps keep me out of real dangerous situations for the most part, but thinking things through before I cut is what has kept me healthy all these years I reckon.

I can see how someone who only has ever cut live trees would think the way they do inre: "danger trees", but when it is all you ever cut, you get a different opinion on what is a danger tree and what isn't. Or really, the degree of difficulty involved in putting that dangerous tree on the ground.

Kinda like the first time you go for a ride in a NASCAR car, you would be scared as all get out. But once you have driven the thing for a while, it aint so bad. 

Ted


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 1, 2014)

That's a lot of wood Ted! I was hoping to get up to 10 this year but I don't know if I'll make it. Cutting wood around here is a tricky thing. It's feast or famine. This particular site is a very narrow strip of woods between a house and a bean field. The homeowner is 80 plus years old and wants them out of his little strip of woods before they fall on his lawn making a mess. Luckily for us that was the only bad tree. Most of the others were already on the ground inside of the wood line so we simply cut them into 15-20 foot lengths and drug them out into the open field. It was nice to be able to leave all the limbs and debris in the woods and only drag out clean logs!

Everyone around here wants so much money for cutting dead or tops. I might as well buy it if I'm gonna pay some of the prices people want. If I'm gonna buy firewood I might as well buy propane. Why waste my time and money when I can buy propane for slightly more. This is why I try to take every tree I can get my hands on!

In hindsight we might have been able to put a ladder on that tree, climb up a ways and wrap a 100' cable on that thing and jerk it down with the neighbors big tractor!


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes, I am lucky to have a landowner with a 160 acre woods that is nearly all red oak, with a little bit of bur oak mixed in for the fun of it. Oak wilt has gotten in there bad, and I can't keep up. Plus it is all rather low ground, with the groundwater at about 3 feet so the root system is shallow. When we get a 30 or 40 mph wind in the summer, those big canopies catch more wind than the roots can hold and over they go! Each day as I leave, I drive through his yard (only entrance to the woods) he stops me to shoot the crap. he asks how many loads I got out and I tell him, and his response is always that I shoulda got one more! lol
When I first started cutting here, one couldn't even get IN to the woods for all the blowdowns. Now there are trails all over and they can get in there to hunt! He told me the place looks like a park. So one day I had a sign painted up and hung it out there that says ****** Park. Proudly maintained by Quicksdraw McSaw and Balsa Louie! lol He got a kick out of that!

Ted


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 1, 2014)

" Quicksdraw McSaw and Balsa Louie!"

I like that! Very catchy!


----------



## slowp (Jan 1, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> My, look at those nice, straight trees, clear woods with wide spaces and lack of underbrush & obstacles. Sure doesn't look anything like PA!
> 
> Conditions vary, as do the purposes of the people cutting wood. There's no way most home firewood gatherers are going to have the skills, experience or equipment that professional loggers do. That doesn't mean there's nothing for a firewood guy to learn from professional loggers, but neither is it necessary to gain that level of proficiency to be safe and effective.


 

Those straight trees were leaning or weighted towards the barn. Cody had to make them go away from where they naturally wanted to go without having them set back on his saw. That's why he was putting in the back cut first on a few, and then the face cut. That's why the video is called, Falling Backleaners. Go back and watch it again. Why was he pounding the heck out of 4 wedges if the tree was perfectly straight? 

I've seen him work and like Metals said, the guy is an artist of falling. Definitely one of these fallers. Things to note? He had everything he needed along with him including a substantial axe and the most important safety item, his brain/knowledge.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 1, 2014)

slowp said:


> I've seen him work and like Metals said, the guy is an artist of falling. Definitely one of these fallers. Things to note? He had everything he needed along with him including a substantial axe and the most important safety item, his brain/knowledge.


I have no doubt he is, but what is your point in posting that video? Will he come cut my firewood? Are you suggesting that is the level of expertise a firewood gatherer should expect to achieve? 

The guy is an experienced pro faller, and I get paid to do another job. I'm not an artist - I am and will always be an amateur cutting firewood to heat my home, but heating my home is in fact an important task. There have been amateurs cutting wood off these hills and heating this same house for 180 years.

I'm cutting wood out of 30 acres and I need to maintain that so it is sustainable. I don't cut live trees unless they are damaged in some way, so every tree I cut is a problem tree. I don't have to fall trees very often, as between the increased recent storms and disease I have more deadfall than I can keep up with. However, a large portion of what comes down gets snagged or hung up, on often steep terrain with lots of rock and boulders and plenty of other stuff to hit as it's a forest and not a tree plantation.

I can't walk away from all of it or I'd have to cut healthy stuff and soon destroy the woods. That is the job of a firewood gatherer in this region. That said, I've learned a lot since I started reading here, and I'm always glad to get knowledge from wherever I can. Still, there's a world of difference between firewood and F&L.


----------



## zogger (Jan 1, 2014)

slowp said:


> Here's some good falling except don't do what he's doing on the last tree--walk in front of it. This guy is the real deal. There's lots of wedging and he's making trees go the way they are not inclined to go--they are backleaners.



That was a nice video, just watched it. not seeing any huge problem trees with what he had there though, he made normal cuts and wedged the snot out of them. It really has little to do with rotten cracked real big deciduous trees with goofy weights and branches all over, other than that generic theory of wedges can lift a tree and move it, and helps with not getting your bar pinched. He did a fine job, but it doesn't fit this discussion very well at all. 

There really does exist a need for nice falling vids, instructionals, but it would have to be done with a dedicated videographer who is a "pro", with a good camera and decent technique, and not a selfie with a jerky helmet cam, removing unnecessary chainsaw noise, then follow up added to the vid narration from the faller (hence removing/ minimizing the chainsaw sound so you can understand the speech) so it is synched with the video on what he is doing, how, why, when etc. A before, looking at the tree and discussing it, during the fell, then a follow up with looking at the stump closer and so on.


----------



## slowp (Jan 1, 2014)

Wellllllll, there's always this, for basics other than the slopping back cut. Putting on flame suit now...Oh, the guy teaching it out here constantly said, "It's the small trees that'll kill you."

http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php

There's nothing wrong with cutting green healthy trees either. That's part of what I've got for next year in the woodshed, I cut it in 2012. Timber stands need thinning from time to time to keep them healthy and growing. We call it forestry.


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 1, 2014)

I would be very interested in the atv gentle clearing training. That is what we need around here. Of course I didnt see anything close by. 

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2014)

Y'all are some iron headed sum beeches! LOL

Lets clarify some points.

Nobody is saying you can't learn how to be safe and proficient cut'n firewood. I started cutting firewood, and falling trees by myself when I was 10 years old. By the time I was 20, I thought I had it licked and that I was a badass. Then I started logging, and realized I was a cull, and my knowledge base was extremely limited.

Not every dead standing tree is a 'hazard' or 'snag'! Not every blow-down is loaded, waiting to break your legs. Lets call a spade a spade, and admit that most firewood we gather is relatively safe and sound.

The ENTIRE point people were trying to make, is to know your limits!! Don't beaver on a clearly messed up snag, and hope for the best! Trees rarely do more than two things when you don't show them the proper amount of respect. . . They either hurt you really bad, or they kill you.

Second chances are pretty rare in the woods, whether you're firewood cutting or working as a professional. The minute you think you're a "pro", and that you've arrived -- a tree will humble your butt -- and not in a good way.

A steel working buddy of mine almost died in 2012. He and a friend were out cutting firewood, and Sam (My buddy) was on the road -- while his bud went up the cut-slope to fall a very large Larch snag. When Larch die, the bark slips, and they can make a run down a slope till it hits the bottom.

This Larch was about 4' on the butt and 130' tall. They're like the sharpened point of a pencil, and usually lose all their limbs.

So being 500 yards away, Sam thought he was more than clear of any danger. When that tree hit the ground, it ran down the slope like a freight train. They can do it relatively quietly too, and Sam was unknowingly right in the cross-hairs. By the time he knew he was in the path of a runaway tree, it planted itself 8' deep into the hard road surface, broke off, and hit him in the face.

They figure it tossed him 50+ feet over the bank. Sam's pard had no idea anything had happened and took his time coming down the hill. When he got to the road he saw what the tree had done, and called out for Sam, with no answer. He panicked and ran to the truck -- finding Sam inside passed out. His face was bloody, and now there was a tree in the road to cut away before they could rush him to the hospital. They were 70 miles from town, and no way to get help, besides helping themselves.

Sam doesn't remember how he got in the truck. He has no recollection of crawling up the hill, and portions of the drive into town aren't there. He is absolutely lucky that tree didn't rip his head from his shoulders.

The damage? Fractured jaw, fractured skull, soft tissue damage, lacerations, and obvious brain trauma/swelling. The doctor said the X-ray of his skull looked like someone had cracked a hard boiled egg (there were so many micro fractures). He said he not only should NOT have lived through it, but he should be brain dead and in a coma.

So we can measure weenies, and puff chests -- but in the end -- knowing your limitations will save your butt. Having real life experience to know what a tree might do in a certain situation, is irreplaceable. It can't be made up by ego, or fearlessness, or carelessness.

Good luck fellas -- keep yer heads on a swivel!


----------



## Vermonster (Jan 1, 2014)

slowp said:


> Wellllllll, there's always this, for basics other than the slopping back cut. Putting on flame suit now...Oh, the guy teaching it out here constantly said, "It's the small trees that'll kill you."
> 
> http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php
> 
> There's nothing wrong with cutting green healthy trees either. That's part of what I've got for next year in the woodshed, I cut it in 2012. Timber stands need thinning from time to time to keep them healthy and growing. We call it forestry.


Thanks for the link. There are a number of courses offered within an hour of my home/wood lot.  98% of what I cut is live wood. http://www.woodlandtraining.com/GOL.php


----------



## zogger (Jan 1, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> Y'all are some iron headed sum beeches! LOL
> 
> Lets clarify some points.
> 
> ...



Very nice post and story..and again, it has nothing to do with very large common heavily branched dead or near dead deciduous trees in the more eastern areas of the US. This is the point we are trying to make back, not weenie wagging, but that ya'alls common out west large conifer logging is *not* like more eastern type firewood harvesting on a personal or small scale commercial level. Saws are involved, and we are talking about trees, after that, it diverts. Like talking about sportscars and heavy trucks, they are both motor vehicles. Out here, these sorts of trees are a lot of what we get to use for firewood, the nasty trees, sometimes huge, that aren't good for anything else. They aren't quality timber. they are nasty gnarly trees that need dealt with, but contain a lot of BTUs.

We are trying to stay focused on this type of cutting, these refs to redwoods/doug firs/whatever for timber aren't in our reality for the most part.

We get the analogies, and the parts that are common, and paying super attention to deadfalls/widowmakers/gravity and angles, etc. but stories like yours and slowps vid are not exactly a match or even close to what this discussion is about. No one here is putting you folks down, we just have a different situation to deal with.

And we also know that GOL is a subject of much guffawing around the F&L forum (and other sites on the net with members who crossover...), as is the term cull or stupid farmer or "firewood hack, ha ha ha" something, to refer to anyone who isn't a pro western logger.


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 1, 2014)

flyboy553 said:


> 99.9% of the trees I cut down are standing dead. The only live tree I fell is one that the landowner wants removed, at most 2 or 3 a year. And I have been doing this for over 35 years, 75 to 90 full cords each year. I've not been injured once, knock on wood.
> 
> This is the difference between logging and firewood cutting. My job is to go in and remove the dead, and down trees, including the snags and spars. I wouldn't be out there long if I was cutting the guys live trees now, would I! I have equipment I use in the woods which helps keep me out of real dangerous situations for the most part, but thinking things through before I cut is what has kept me healthy all these years I reckon.
> 
> ...





Absolutely nothing wrong with dead trees for firewood! I'd take whatever people would let me when firewooding my years in Michigan, and obviously that's usually dead or damaged. Didn't mean to suggest all dead trees are incredibly dangerous. What is true, is that a dead tree is usually more unpredictable than a live tree, all other things being equal.

Keeping your head about you, knowing how to read situations, and a bit of luck go a long way in having a good safety record!


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 1, 2014)

On a side note, a rotten cherry (or red oak, can't remember now) provided my worst butt pucker moment. Talk about a tree I should have left... The sound it made when it barber chaired 15 feet up was crazy, albeit drowned out by the sound of my heart beating in my head as I jumped backwards with all the adrenaline I had.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2014)

zogger said:


> Very nice post and story..and again, it has nothing to do with very large common heavily branched dead or near dead deciduous trees in the more eastern areas of the US. This is the point we are trying to make back, not weenie wagging, but that ya'alls common out west large conifer logging is *not* like more eastern type firewood harvesting on a personal or small scale commercial level. *Saws are involved, and we are talking about trees, after that, it diverts.* Like talking about sportscars and heavy trucks, they are both motor vehicles. Out here, these sorts of trees are a lot of what we get to use for firewood, the nasty trees, sometimes huge, that aren't good for anything else. They aren't quality timber. they are nasty gnarly trees that need dealt with, but contain a lot of BTUs.
> 
> *We are trying to stay focused on this type of cutting*, these refs to redwoods/doug firs/whatever for timber aren't in our reality for the most part.
> 
> ...



**Sigh**

I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying? 

Matt has it right, someone asks, gets an opinion from someone qualified to answer -- and because they don't like the answer -- they ignore it or argue about it.

You seem to have a deciduous snobbery thing going on, which I certainly haven't brought up, but since you have. . .

You think that I have never cut hardwood of any kind, or that uneven loading or weighting isn't an issue in conifers?? Well, you would be about 400 different kinds of wrong. Conifers can be just as bad as any deciduous tree.

We have lots of hardwood here too, it's just in the city limits for the 'exotic' stuff. I have a poo load of Elm sitting outside my door right now. Believe it or not, I actually cut it myself, with a chainsaw. There's Maple, Oak, Locust, and quite a few others within my grasp, I just have to ask.

In the 'wild', we have Alder, Birch, Cottonwood. The Cottonwoods average 5' on the butt, some larger. So there I go ruining any size stereotype you might have.

Also, if you actually knew diddly squat about falling trees, you'd know that cutting any tree uses the same level of expertise, experience, & knowledge, and has nothing to do about what state you live in.
For you to say, "Y'all are ignorant of our way cause you don't cut 'X' kind of tree", is silliness. Why do you think Columbia Heli would bring fallers in from the west coast to Florida, Indiana, WV, etc to cut timber -- if it was too great a chasm for them to bridge? It's because they were alpha fallers, and you could put them anywhere to get the job done.

Y'all can just keep doing things how grandpappy did them till the cows come home if you want. Cause it works, and grandpappy was the best!! 

We dumb western folks will just keep our stupid experience to ourselves, and let someone east of Nebraska answer everything.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 1, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> **Sigh**
> 
> I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying?
> 
> Matt has it right, someone asks, gets an opinion from someone qualified to answer -- and because they don't like the answer -- they ignore it or argue about it.




I'm not trying to argue.
I know that dang near everyone here has a lot more felling experience than me and I have learned a boatload from the folks here in the few short years I've been here.
I'd never seen any type of notch except the standard (for here) horizontal cut, go up 3 or 4 inches and angle down then knock it out wedge until I joined this site. That's all we ever used here.
I learned about notches and their uses from a Husky saw video.
However, the original poster wanted advice on how to cut the tree in the first video and immediately the responses started coming in that those should be left to professionals.
Well that is good advice but didn't answer the question.
Paying someone to come in and cut a tree that is next to your house is one thing, but we here in Kentucky can't hire a pro to fell firewood.
So we are left with;
1) The tree has to come down.
2) I have to get it down the best possible way.
3) How can I do it and not die.

I have a great respect for you and the other Pro's on this site and that is why this is where I'd come if I had a question.
But to just blow a questioner off with "leave that to the Pro's" not only isn't helpful it but can be just the opposite.
JMHO


Mike


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 1, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> **Sigh**
> 
> I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what offended you, but I don't see that anyone claimed western loggers were dumb or incapable of cutting hardwood. I've no doubt at all that any good logger could come and cut anything I do. The point was that the response of "you're not qualified, you should leave that alone, and here let me show you a video of some pro faller in vastly different circumstances or tell you a story about a situation unlike anything you'll encounter" isn't really useful. 

The OP's video made me cringe in several different ways, I've walked away from quite a few trees I decided were too dangerous and I don't make sloping back cuts like my dad does. I also got little new out of slowp's video or your story - there are not any 4' diameter 130' larches to turn into downhill missiles around here. Lots of nasty half dead ashes wrapped up with a dozen new invasive vines I can't recognize (along with the grapes and poison ivy), packed in with briers, wineberry and autumn olive on steep slopes covered with rock.

It seems like everyone on AS sees something to be offended by in every comment, and no one can communicate anymore.


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 1, 2014)

I guess the main thing I was looking for was this:

"That tree looks dangerous"
"Nah I'm gonna cut it anyways"
" You see the crack going horizontally through the trunk about 4 foot up the tree?"
"No problem"
"Here is some advice on how to cut that tree and maybe escape with your life, I learned it on AS. First thing you want to do is walk away"
"Screw that I'm cutting it down"
"Ok then the next thing I learned on AS is..........don't do a sloping back cut"
"That's it? That's all you learned? Well here goes.............

You get my point? Someone is going to cut down a dangerous tree once in awhile. Me? Probably not but damn would I like to be able to give advice on how it might be done in a manner that is less likely to take a life or mangle someone.

Even a slight chance at improving a situation is better than no chance!

Any input is good input. Many minds are better than one. 

Cheers and happy new year to everyone!


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2014)

I ain't trying to argue either Mike, I'm just frustrated.

My advice (and others) was never 'Leave it to the professionals', my advice was "Don't touch it at all, because the professionals wouldn't." But in return, we get a "LOL, we're gonna anyway" and "I'm taking all I can get no matter what" from the OP, and other guesses from the gallery on how they would do it. "They" aren't there -- and do "they" want the responsibility of giving internet falling advice that could very well be misconstrued, misapplied, and end in the injury or death of another person??

"Well you see, this guy on a website said to cut trees similar looking to this one, this way, and somehow it killed my son who was standing next to me? I don't understand, because they sounded like they knew what to do?"

That tree also didn't 'have to' come down, it was a choice to pluck it out for firewood. 

There's is no, 'How can I do it and not die' advice that can be given over a computer, to someone with little to no experience, on a tree that should never be touched unless it was an actual necessity. Even then, that tree is a candidate for roping/cabling over, blasting, or a 100' lift.

Anyone catch the moral of my story about Sam? What was the big mistake he made? Anyone? I'll wait for some answers before I give it away.


----------



## slowp (Jan 1, 2014)

Cody in and out of a limby, rotten, hornetty, cottonwood. Don't try this at home.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> I'm not sure what offended you, but I don't see that anyone claimed western loggers were dumb or incapable of cutting hardwood. I've no doubt at all that any good logger could come and cut anything I do. The point was that the response of "you're not qualified, you should leave that alone, and here let me show you a video of some pro faller in vastly different circumstances or tell you a story about a situation unlike anything you'll encounter" isn't really useful.
> 
> The OP's video made me cringe in several different ways, I've walked away from quite a few trees I decided were too dangerous and I don't make sloping back cuts like my dad does. I also got little new out of slowp's video or your story - there are not any 4' diameter 130' larches to turn into downhill missiles around here. Lots of nasty half dead ashes wrapped up with a dozen new invasive vines I can't recognize (along with the grapes and poison ivy), packed in with briers, wineberry and autumn olive on steep slopes covered with rock.
> 
> It seems like everyone on AS sees something to be offended by in every comment, and no one can communicate anymore.



You missed the point of the story. . . It had nothing to do with what tree species it was.

And the OP is not qualified -- everyone seems to think that's bad? Can he learn? Yep. Is a thread on Arboristsite the place for him to learn the intricacies of snag removal? Nope!

I can't do back surgery without killing the patient. Do you think I'm going to go to a Dr's forum and argue that "They're not the only ones that can do it" & "What's the best way to try back surgery?"

Being under qualified doesn't make someone a moron. What makes someone a moron, is not heeding good advice, given for their benefit, so they or someone else doesn't die.

And reread zogger's reply -- he indeed is saying westerners have no deciduous experience, because we cut conifers. . . And they're unrelatable besides both being cut with a chainsaw.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> I guess the main thing I was looking for was this:
> 
> "That tree looks dangerous"
> "Nah I'm gonna cut it anyways"
> ...



And that right there, Is where the only advice can be "Good luck with that stupid. Hang yourself, but you ain't using my rope. Take care!"


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 1, 2014)

And that right there, Is where the only advice can be "Good luck with that stupid. Hang yourself, but you ain't using my rope. Take care!"

It is what it is. That may be the only sound advice in this situation. Believe me I'm not trying to argue a "correct" answer out of someone. I do believe that walking away is probably a good idea on many trees. 
Just trying to learn which ones they are! 
6 pages of replies and not one person said sure this is doable. I get the message. 
Next time I see an ugly tree I'll ask again!
If that's OK with everyone?


----------



## cantoo (Jan 1, 2014)

Bushmans, I have about a dozen maples that I need/ want/ whatever you wanna call it cut down at a neighbours property. They are all what I would call danger trees because of rot, cracking and broken out pieces and just the size of the trees. They are in a bush so no danger of dropping onto anything valuable other than me or bil. I've been looking at them for a few years now and have already cut one down. I took my time and the tree went right where I wanted and expected it to go. They will someday be cut down as I want them for firewood but am in no rush. I might cut them myself or I might have a "pro" come in and drop them but they will be cut down. It's posts like this that I learn from so don't worry what the pros or whoever say, post away.


----------



## slowp (Jan 2, 2014)

Gotta post this video. A long one about conifer snags with steep ground, lean in the wrong direction, wedging, jacking, lining and a tree that doesn't want to go.


----------



## GrassGuerilla (Jan 2, 2014)

slowp said:


> Oh man. All the cliches! I can't take it.
> 
> OK, what drove me crazy about the video? I couldn't see a face cut. I assume there was one?
> The guy had all the nice and pretty protective gear. He even had wedges. Why wasn't he using them? Where was his axe? That's as much a piece of safety equipment as that fancy hardhat.
> ...



I think the underlined part is dead on. I can only add that even after reading the first page entirely before watching the vid (and therefore realizing you lived) my palms were sweating as I watched. Glad all involved are still intact.


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 2, 2014)

Yeah I lived. For the most part video cameras won't kill you. Keep reading!


----------



## raycarr (Jan 2, 2014)

I love reading this kind of stuff.
This one wasn't as bad as some, the chest thumping "I'm a badass with a chainsaw" self congratulatory video, with HBNR adroitness, just kill me. Then when someone who actually knows what they are talking about, cuts in among the backslappers and adds a few corrective insights, red-faced farmer loggers get their backs up and the slippery slope gets steeper. 
I am not a Pro, but I received one on one training from a man who was. Advice given must be backed up with experience, not supposition. As for the way some state their views or give advice, look past the gruff replies or blunt advice and see the hard won knowledge being shared.


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 2, 2014)

Coming in to a thread and giving constructive critique is a good thing. Everyone can use good sound advice and then put it to use.

But when one comes in and gives that advice in a condescending, I know more than you worthless flatlanders attitude, well, what do you expect? Of course your going to get feathers riled big time. Assuming we don't know what we are talking about is a prime example of that! I imagine, since I have only been cutting firewood to the tune of 75-90 full cords a year for over 35 years, I have learned nothing about safe cutting. U can take your better than you attitude and park it where the sun doesn't shine!

If you are not able to give advice without putting someone down in the process, then just keep your advice over in the F&L forum. Thinking that we are supposed to just take your abuse somehow justifies your bullying. Well, I am done with it! 

So, what your saying is your not a logger but you stayed at Holiday Inn last night! Woo Hoo!! Bully for you!

Ted


----------



## zogger (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> **Sigh**
> 
> I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying?
> 
> ...



I didn't imply anything other than what i said, not what you think I said. First a video of some skinny pine trees, where I DID say I thought it was an allright video for like a home movie enter5tainment thing, and the guy cut well. That is a compliment, not a put down to that faller. Just commented it didn't fit with this particlar situation very well. Around here all that skinny pine stuff would have been done with a crawler anyway, drive right down that line and knock them back the other way.....

Then a story about a big one sliding down a steep mountain..those didn't apply to the OPs situation other than trees are dangerous to cut, even the easy ones, and proper technique counts. The OP wasn't working on a mile high mountain. Nice story, brings home the absolute wildest things can happen, but wasn't relevant to his situation. 

As to the snarky stuff, I just read it here, before I even joined the site, there is a common "laff at the culls" meme that is common in the F&L section, especially directed west to east. I was rather surprised when I first started here and was reading that jazz, but..it is what it is.. Been going on for years, you can see it. Long before I joined here. *They* started it, not me, ohh, how I dare notice that!



My constructive commentary was above, there exists a need for decent instructional videos that have good narrative with them, not just chainsaw noise or music. 

I never advised the OP one way or the other besides saying I don't cut like that at head high, and I have used chains and ropes to bind the trunk on some trees, and also used guide ropes, etc where I could and it seemed necessary. I personally couldn't tell from the pics and vids if I would have attempted that tree, something hairy like that I would have to see in person.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 2, 2014)

Well shoot, I'd cut that sucker too. Would have done it a little different, first not that high up and would tell the dude hollerin in the background to hush, I would have never turned around. always stay focused on the tree. Also would have looked up more for dead limbs falling.Going to get reamed for this, but I've cut a lot worse than that tree before. and a lot bigger. This thread is a good reason I never post a tree cutting video here. But I have the flame suit on so fire away.


----------



## slowp (Jan 2, 2014)

I failed to use the ski school method of build up the ego to a high place first, then criticise and bring it back down to the normal line.

90 cords a year equates to 9 log trucks. A production faller cuts quite a bit more than that in a year--just sayin'.  Need a hearts and flowers happy times emoticon here.

What should we do when watching a video? Make crude, junior high boy remarks and congratulate the cutter on how he got it on the ground, it made a nice noise, good for you? Post this in reply..opcorn:. One needs to go forth in a learning progression. Start with a basic deciduous tree, fall it with the lean, work on basic skills. By the way, I've been rediculed for my stumps. I expect it.
They aren't pro like and I'm not a pro at falling unless you count my time on a thinning crew with small trees. Lodgepole is fun!
Oh, I did have a mental list in my head, still do, of guys I feel safe about being near while they are cutting (and they know I'm there) and guys who are not. Some are skilled, but their safety attitude sucks.

The story of the conifer known as Larch? I get that it was posted to show what can happen if you turn your back on something you percieve to be safe, yet you are standing in a bad spot--down below the steep hillside, and things go a bit south and you. Kind of like having a rotten tree sawed almost through, turning your back on it and concentrating on what somebody is trying to say.


----------



## chuckwood (Jan 2, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> Unfortunately trees like this one will be cut down forever by plenty of inexperienced people. Some will not go as planned. This tree is in my wood pile but if I would have had to fell it then it would still be there. I have only felled maybe 20 trees in my saw time. I take the easy ones. It's easy to sit back and say leave everything to the professionals but you know it ain't gonna happen. I almost wish you needed a license to own a chainsaw and that would at least require a few hours of basic training. No one taught me how to cut a tree down. It's all self taught.



Many years ago, my first saw was a 65cc Husky with a 24 inch bar. There was no internet, and it didn't occur to me that I needed info on how to fell a tree safely. I made no face cut, just a back cut all the way through. I had some barber chairs, bent and pinched bars, and thought that was just something trees did every now and then. The dumbest and luckiest thing I ever did was cut down a huge, leaning, hollow oak tree with a single back cut, came down pretty as you please. Some years later, I found out that cutting trees is no way as simple as it looks. Today, I'm just as overly careful as I used to be overly stupid. 

In Germany, you need a license to buy and use a chainsaw, and you have to take a safety course to get it. I suppose they figure that since the government pays your medical bills, they have the right to insist you know what you are doing first.


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 2, 2014)

slowp said:


> I failed to use the ski school method of build up the ego to a high place first, then criticise and bring it back down to the normal line. And I failed to bow down and worship the ground you walk on solely because you live out west and have been around fallers who are pro's.
> 
> 90 cords a year equates to 9 log trucks. This is wrapped around my full time job as a heavy equipment operator. Just sayin. If I did this full time of course I would cut more than that.  A production faller cuts quite a bit more than that in a year--just sayin'.  Need a hearts and flowers happy times emoticon here.
> 
> ...


----------



## cre10 (Jan 2, 2014)

Be careful turning your back on a tree.


----------



## cantoo (Jan 2, 2014)

I wanna know when we get to vote someone off the Island?


----------



## Blazin (Jan 2, 2014)

cantoo said:


> I wanna know when we get to vote someone off the Island?


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 2, 2014)

not tryin to get in this argument here but there are east coast fallers on the F&L side and we do talk to the west coast folks without a big fight. yea, we all do some things different but please folks there really is no need for this east vs west thing ive been seeing. I think maybe some of us on both coasts may have some saw chips on our shoulders and just waitin for someone to say sumthing that could be misconstrued. a little step back from that thinking may be in order here, to just talk to each other like we don't know where each other is from.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 2, 2014)

chuckwood said:


> In Germany, you need a license to buy and use a chainsaw, and you have to take a safety course to get it. I suppose they figure that since the government pays your medical bills, they have the right to insist you know what you are doing first.


Partly it is the culture of specialization that pervades our society these days, but Europe has a particularly advanced case of the disease (we're not far behind). Everyone has their own narrow area of expertise, and outside of that you must hire a specialist. If you need to run pipes, you hire a certified and insured plumber, wiring an electrician, carpentry, masonry, mechanical, etc. From what I've seen the UK is especially bad - you can't fart without certification and your green safety jacket. 

I reject this. Our forebears were generalists who were decently proficient in a variety of areas, and probably expert in several. This is one reason why I live in the country, so that my activities are not much noticed and I can do my work myself. It's pretty much what it means to be a country boy or girl in my book. There are limits, and knowing them is important - I will hire a pro when things are beyond my ability, when I cannot justify the investment in equipment or time learning (like when it's not a job I'm likely to do again).

Firewood is like that - there is a lot to know in terms of maintaining and using the equipment, and how to work safely. But it is still just another routine task that needs doing. And truthfully, getting the tree on the ground is about where the actual work starts.


----------



## zogger (Jan 2, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> not tryin to get in this argument here but there are east coast fallers on the F&L side and we do talk to the west coast folks without a big fight. yea, we all do some things different but please folks there really is no need for this east vs west thing ive been seeing. I think maybe some of us on both coasts may have some saw chips on our shoulders and just waitin for someone to say sumthing that could be misconstrued. a little step back from that thinking may be in order here, to just talk to each other like we don't know where each other is from.



Yep, that would be nice. How about the F& L guys go first, knock it off with the "culls" and "morons" and "stupid farmers" and "firewood hacks" and "stacking wood, LOLs" the "don't move here" crap, snarky comments on PPE choices, and so on. There's a big diff between innocent friendly razz and..the other, what goes on.

I have basically about giving up even lurking and reading over there, and I know it is even worse on some other tree websites. Ya'lls stuff don't stink, we get it. fine. We get it, the ""pros" don't like us and have mostly sneering snarky contempt, and it is especially noticeable as it comes from a particular region. 

A guy could be the most knowledgeable dude on the planet in discipline x,y,z, but if he comes across like an elitist jerk constantly, well..it sucks. I am only speaking for myself now, but I just don't even care to listen to it anymore, good advice, bad advice, whatever, cutting trees or working on machinery or who cares. I'll muddle on through with my fellow firewood hacks and scroungers over here.

edit: said my piece, done with this particular thread now. The OP certainly could have done it way safer and better, but he got it on the ground and is learning, same as the rest of us (some of us). chainsaws and trees ARE DANGEROUS. We know that. We try to do better, every tree, every guy, one tree at a time. Some trees are just way harder than other trees, but all needed treated with respect and with an eye towards total situational awareness, and safety.


----------



## GrassGuerilla (Jan 2, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> Yeah I lived. For the most part video cameras won't kill you. Keep reading!



Actually, I read every post before I commented. Just read the first page before I watched the vid, and shared my reaction.

Maybe you should read the underlined text I quoted again?


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 2, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> not tryin to get in this argument here but there are east coast fallers on the F&L side and we do talk to the west coast folks without a big fight. yea, we all do some things different but please folks there really is no need for this *east vs west thing* ive been seeing. I think maybe some of us on both coasts may have some saw chips on our shoulders and just waitin for someone to say sumthing that could be misconstrued. a little step back from that thinking may be in order here, to just talk to each other like we don't know where each other is from.



That's ironic, cause I always saw you as Biggie, and Northman as Tupac. Or maybe Northman was Biggie.


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 2, 2014)

GrassGuerilla said:


> Actually, I read every post before I commented. Just read the first page before I watched the vid, and shared my reaction.
> 
> Maybe you should read the underlined text I quoted again?



My apologies! Jumping to conclusions has been a weak point of mine. Just seems that everyone thinks it was me in the video. Feels like I'm getting slammed for trying to help bring a little more light into the world of "DIY firewooding".
Again my apologies if I offended you or anyone.

Perhaps it's time the mods just removed the post. ???????


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 2, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> Perhaps it's time the mods just removed the post. ???????





Noooooooo!!! Why deprive the archives of such an awesome (and random) E v. W bitchfest!


----------



## Blazin (Jan 2, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> My apologies! Jumping to conclusions has been a weak point of mine. Just seems that everyone thinks it was me in the video. Feels like I'm getting slammed for trying to help bring a little more light into the world of "DIY firewooding".
> Again my apologies if I offended you or anyone.
> 
> Perhaps it's time the mods just removed the post. ???????



Bah..... I do have to say I may have had half the seat cushion sucked up my ass in sheer terror when I watched the vid, but thankfully no one got hurt....main thing. The tree apparently had a lean the way it looked, being rotted like that I would have put a shallow steep face in it at the base, then gunned the back cut watching the tree....and up REAL good. Wedges on a rotten leaner....ah, I'll pass. Learning from mistakes is sometimes the skool of hard noxs, especially when it's a tree waiting to smash in the ground. Access the lean (weighted side) and let it work in your favor, look for what's gonna bust off over your head, think about your notch and back cut before you even start the saw, and a good clear path off to the side to skip out of the way. Other than that enjoy that Ash!


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 2, 2014)

Blazin said:


> Wedges on a rotten leaner....ah, I'll pass.




Ya ever pound a wedge in and watch it just mush into the tree? LOL 

I help out a mountain biking organization clear and maintain trails; on new trails, one of the things we have to do is clear any/all snags within reaching distance. Had one a few months back that leaned towards the trail and I really didn't want to make more of a mess, so I tried falling it away; hoped I could find a little good wood inside for a wedge... Got a face in, started the back cut, got a wedge in, proceeded with back cut and all of a sudden, hit a pocket of pure mush! Tree sat right down on the bar; tried driving in the wedge and watched in sink into the surrounding wood like a sponge  Ended up popping the powerhead off, grabbing another saw, and cutting a new face a foot higher 180° around the tree, (now with the lean) and falling the thing back the other way right across the trail. Should've just done that from the start and planned on bucking it up, rather than trying to get cute!


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> My apologies! Jumping to conclusions has been a weak point of mine. Just seems that everyone thinks it was me in the video. Feels like I'm getting slammed for trying to help bring a little more light into the world of "DIY firewooding".
> Again my apologies if I offended you or anyone.
> 
> *Perhaps it's time the mods just removed the post. ???????*



No need for that at all!


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

I took a breath and counted to ten -- I'm better now. I don't hate anyone in this thread, nor have ill feelings toward them. Nobody is a cull, and I'm sure you all are a professionals in your own areas.

The moral of the "Sam" story, was. . . Wait for it. . . He was standing directly under a faller cutting down a tree. The distance doesn't matter -- gravity works 24/7 -- it never sleeps. He was also visually blind to the situation, and unable to communicate with his partner. So, to recap; standing in the wrong/bad spot, no line of communication, visually and auditorily blind to current and probable hazards.

Not having the experience and knowledge to know what may happen, put him in the hospital. He was effectively working above his pay grade. If someone else was there that day, and knew what NOT to do -- Sam would have been clear, and everyone would have went home that day.

BTW, the thing in my sig is tongue and cheek. 

Oh, and what do you call someone who asks for advice, and then does the opposite?

An Askhole. Bwahahahaha


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Blazin said:


> Bah..... I do have to say I may have had half the seat cushion sucked up my ass in sheer terror when I watched the vid, but thankfully no one got hurt....main thing. The tree apparently had a lean the way it looked, being rotted like that I would have put a shallow steep face in it at the base, then gunned the back cut watching the tree....and up REAL good. Wedges on a rotten leaner....ah, I'll pass. Learning from mistakes is sometimes the skool of hard noxs, especially when it's a tree waiting to smash in the ground. Access the lean (weighted side) and let it work in your favor, look for what's gonna bust off over your head, think about your notch and back cut before you even start the saw, and a good clear path off to the side to skip out of the way. Other than that enjoy that Ash!


Yeah...
I'da cut it too... 
It's a dead Ash tree, and I would have wanted it...
Guilty as charged...


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> I took a breath and counted to ten -- I'm better now. I don't hate anyone in this thread, nor have ill feelings toward them. Nobody is a cull, and I'm sure you all are a professionals in your own areas.
> 
> The moral of the "Sam" story, was. . . Wait for it. . . He was standing directly under a faller cutting down a tree. The distance doesn't matter -- gravity works 24/7 -- it never sleeps. He was also visually blind to the situation, and unable to communicate with his partner. So, to recap; standing in the wrong/bad spot, no line of communication, visually and auditorily blind to current and probable hazards.
> 
> ...



I need you to come visit for a couple days Nate...
I got this dead Elm tree I been tap dancing around...
I'm afraid to even poke it with the loader...

I'll hold the camera...


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I need you to come visit for a couple days Nate...
> I got this dead Elm tree I been tap dancing around...
> I'm afraid to even poke it with the loader...
> 
> I'll hold the camera...



Ummm, sounds like a candidate for the 12 gauge and some beer.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> Ummm, sounds like a candidate for the 12 gauge and some beer.


However you think we can make it go boom!!!
I ain't sticking a saw in that rotten behemoth!!!
With my luck, I'd notch the only solid wood in the tree...
It's only about 48" across though...
So bring the short bar...


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> However you think we can make it go boom!!!
> I ain't sticking a saw in that rotten behemoth!!!
> With my luck, I'd notch the only solid wood in the tree...
> It's only about 48" across though...
> So bring the short bar...



4' across eh? That'll take slugs, and a 2 sixers of Leinenkugels.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> 4' across eh? That'll take slugs, and a 2 sixers of Leinenkugels.


Done...
I can hook you up...

Oh, there's 5 strands of barbed wire running through it too...
sooooo....
I better buy an extra box of both...


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 2, 2014)

> 2 sixers of Leinenkugels.



Ahh we do speak the same language! I wonder how many rounds it would take if you cut the face cut and shot the back cut?


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Done...
> I can hook you up...
> 
> Oh, there's 5 strands of barbed wire running through it too...
> ...



Barbed wire??? Deals off, that makes it waaaay too dangerous to tackle.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> Ahh we do speak the same language! I wonder how many rounds it would take if you cut the face cut and shot the back cut?



I'm guessing a full box, mabey more? Only way to tell for sure is to have Hedge do it. . . And film it.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> I'm guessing a full box, mabey more? Only way to tell for sure is to have Hedge do it. . . And film it.



2 box minimum...
If I do it..
I promise to post it in the logging forum...


----------



## Blazin (Jan 2, 2014)

Nuzzy said:


> Ya ever pound a wedge in and watch it just mush into the tree? LOL
> 
> I help out a mountain biking organization clear and maintain trails; on new trails, one of the things we have to do is clear any/all snags within reaching distance. Had one a few months back that leaned towards the trail and I really didn't want to make more of a mess, so I tried falling it away; hoped I could find a little good wood inside for a wedge... Got a face in, started the back cut, got a wedge in, proceeded with back cut and all of a sudden, hit a pocket of pure mush! Tree sat right down on the bar; tried driving in the wedge and watched in sink into the surrounding wood like a sponge  Ended up popping the powerhead off, grabbing another saw, and cutting a new face a foot higher 180° around the tree, (now with the lean) and falling the thing back the other way right across the trail. Should've just done that from the start and planned on bucking it up, rather than trying to get cute!




Obviously you didn't use the right wedge or Ax to drive it like defined in the "book"


----------



## Blazin (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> 2 box minimum...
> If I do it..
> I promise to post it in the logging forum...



There better be a sloping farmer back cut or I'm not not watching it


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Blazin said:


> There better be a sloping farmer back cut or I'm not not watching it


I know that somewhere, there's a logger who invented that cut, but he ain't copping to it...

Nate??? Who did it???


----------



## Blazin (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I know that somewhere, there's a logger who invented that cut, but he ain't copping to it...
> 
> Nate??? Who did it???



Bob did, he just won't admit too it


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

I got a whole fencerow to tip into the field this weekend...
They all have to be cut at 4' or higher so the dozer can get a fit on em'...
After I dump em' I'll cut the tops at an angle and get a pic of 100 trees in a row with sloping cuts, then put it on the L&F Forum...
That aught to be fun...


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I know that somewhere, there's a logger who invented that cut, but he ain't copping to it...
> 
> Nate??? Who did it???



I'm not sure who exactly. . . But I'm fairly certain he was shitfaced drunk when he did.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> I'm not sure who exactly. . . But I'm fairly certain he was shitfaced drunk when he did.


.


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 2, 2014)

All you North, North Western, North Eastern, Western, Eastern, Nor North Western, Nor North Eastern fallers haven't a clue.

Anyone here down South can piss further than yous fellas in our sleep.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

KiwiBro said:


> All you North, North Western, North Eastern, Western, Eastern, Nor North Western, Nor North Eastern fallers haven't a clue.
> 
> Anyone here down South can piss further than yous fellas in our sleep.



You damn Kiwi's did invent timbersports afterall.


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 2, 2014)

And sheep sports, but that's a different story.


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 2, 2014)

Who let Kiwi in to the beer cooler, dang it!

Ted


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 2, 2014)

flyboy553 said:


> Who let Kiwi in to the beer cooler, dang it!
> 
> Ted


Hey, I resemble that. Besides, I'm not as think as you drunk I am.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I got a whole fencerow to tip into the field this weekend...
> They all have to be cut at 4' or higher so the dozer can get a fit on em'...
> After I dump em' I'll cut the tops at an angle and get a pic of 100 trees in a row with sloping cuts, then put it on the L&F Forum...
> That aught to be fun...


 
Sounds good.
Dinner and a movie Saturday night. Put my reservations in now.
What time ?


----------



## unclemoustache (Jan 2, 2014)

Well, I waded through all pages, and skimmed most everything but the arguing. It's hard to say how I would have done the tree, but I learned some good stuff by watching the vid and hearing the comments, but I'm ignorant enough to ask some tough questions here.

1. The text books say that a proper face cut should be about 25% - 30% of the way through the tree, yet the OP vid and slowp's first vid (didn't watch the others - sorry) show very deep face cuts - nearly 50%. Now I'm not adverse to breaking the rules for there are times when rules should be broken, but before breaking a rule, one must fully understand the reasons for the rule in the first place. Can someone explain why the books tell us to make such shallow face cuts when it seems to me that a deeper notch would be better in most cases? And similarly can slowp (or anyone) explain why her friend in the first vid made such deep notches? Is it normally better to do deeper notches on back leaners?

2. Everyone seems to be condemning the sloping back cut, but can someone tell me WHY?

3. A related question - with this particular tree the wedge was not fully removed, so it seems to me the chances of the tree slipping back are greatly increased, so that *in this instance*, it seems that a sloping back cut would indeed be a possible preventive measure. Your thoughts?


----------



## lfnh (Jan 2, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> You damn Kiwi's did invent timbersports afterall.


 
Yeah, ok.
But they did come over here for the skinny on wedging.. 
and there was some good posts that cover alot of ground on that thread.

Nice to see ya around Kiwi,


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 2, 2014)

unclemoustache said:


> Well, I waded through all pages, and skimmed most everything but the arguing. It's hard to say how I would have done the tree, but I learned some good stuff by watching the vid and hearing the comments, but I'm ignorant enough to ask some tough questions here.
> 
> 1. The text books say that a proper face cut should be about 25% - 30% of the way through the tree, yet the OP vid and slowp's first vid (didn't watch the others - sorry) show very deep face cuts - nearly 50%. Now I'm not adverse to breaking the rules for there are times when rules should be broken, but before breaking a rule, one must fully understand the reasons for the rule in the first place. Can someone explain why the books tell us to make such shallow face cuts when it seems to me that a deeper notch would be better in most cases? And similarly can slowp (or anyone) explain why her friend in the first vid made such deep notches? Is it normally better to do deeper notches on back leaners?
> 
> ...






1. 1/3 face is a great place to start, and will cover the highest percentage of trees just fine. One effect of a deep notch is that wedges will move the tree top more due to the fulcrum it creates; the wedges will be harder to drive though.

2. One big reason is it disallows the effective use of wedges. A wedge driven in a sloped backcut will apply force to the hinge and likely break it prematurely, rather than do any lifting of the tree.

3. A standard even backcut a few inches above the horizontal face will be far more adept at providing kick back protection. There simply is no good reason for a sloping backcut. As a side note, it's faster to cut wood fibers straight across rather than diagonally; thus, if one's goal is to make it through the backcut as fast as possible (as it should be with a head leaner), it would behoove them to cut horizontally. There really is no excuse for leaving the face wedge in though.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 2, 2014)

Josh, besides the already mentioned, it's also a lot easier to cut your hinge off coming in at an angle -- it's harder to read horizontal distance when you're angling in. I've seen it in the woods a bunch, where the hinge was cut off, and they lost directional control.

Besides wedging, and missing the hinge -- angled back cuts are just universally known to be unprofessional. That's really the long of the short.

I'm sure with some deep thought, more reasons could be had for not doing it too.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

Nuzzy said:


> 1. 1/3 face is a great place to start, and will cover the highest percentage of trees just fine. One effect of a deep notch is that wedges will move the tree top more due to the fulcrum it creates; the wedges will be harder to drive though.
> 
> 2. One big reason is it disallows the effective use of wedges. A wedge driven in a sloped backcut will apply force to the hinge and likely break it prematurely, rather than do any lifting of the tree.
> 
> 3. A standard even backcut a few inches above the horizontal face will be far more adept at providing kick back protection. There simply is no good reason for a sloping backcut. As a side note, it's faster to cut wood fibers straight across rather than diagonally; thus, if one's goal is to make it through the backcut as fast as possible (as it should be with a head leaner), it would behoove them to cut horizontally. There really is no excuse for leaving the face wedge in though.



Having to leave the face wedge in messed everything up...

Absolutely...

This sloping back cut thing has bugged me for years...
It's not that it's terrible, it's that it's of no help whatsoever...
Other than its a hinderance to speed in the back cut...
If one wants to move a back leaner, you want to lift a tree past the tipping point, not push it...
This does require some strong fibers though..
Trying to lift wedging rotten wood is a screaming waste of time...


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 2, 2014)

lfnh said:


> Sounds good.
> Dinner and a movie Saturday night. Put my reservations in now.
> What time ?


Let's shoot for Monday evening...
I could post it and just let it dangle...
Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!


----------



## lfnh (Jan 2, 2014)

dirty deeds done dirt cheap. ok, gotcha!


----------



## slowp (Jan 2, 2014)

If you watch the cottonwood/hornets video, you can see how he took the face cut out in chunks and even cut into it so he could get the chunk with the nail out. That might have worked for the Ohio tree.


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 2, 2014)

The sloping backcut (for me) is on the same level as the old wives' tale that one can catch a cold (a virus) by standing in the cold (a temperature). 

It creates an ugly stump.
It's slower.
It creates an ugly butt on the log. 
It's harder to line up.
You can't wedge well with it.
Did I mention it's ugly?

Its ONLY claim to fame is the perception it'll prevent kickback, and it doesn't even do THAT well! Most certainly not better than the alternative.


----------



## unclemoustache (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks for the answers. I was afraid that the main reason for avoiding the sloping back cut was "it's ugly" but as you all know, pretty stumps aren't the goal.

Just for the record, I've never done a sloping back cut, although I'm sure I've done other dumb things with a saw.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2014)

unclemoustache said:


> Thanks for the answers. I was afraid that the main reason for avoiding the sloping back cut was "it's ugly" but as you all know, pretty stumps aren't the goal.
> 
> Just for the record, I've never done a sloping back cut, although I'm sure I've done other dumb things with a saw.


Like juggling them??


----------



## nk14zp (Jan 3, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I need you to come visit for a couple days Nate...
> I got this dead Elm tree I been tap dancing around...
> I'm afraid to even poke it with the loader...
> 
> I'll hold the camera...


20lbs of tannerite.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 3, 2014)

I read the majority of the last two pages last night and got mighty pizzed!
I sat down and started writing a scathing admonition and about the time I finished I read it back to myself and thought "Dang that makes me sound as snotty and condescending as they are".

Did you ever stop to wonder where the "farmer cut" came from?
Or why it is still in use?
Now I have no doubt that it originated in the days of felling with axes, but why did it stay in vogue when the crosscut saw replaced the axe? Or when the chainsaw replaced the crosscut?
If you folks will just think about it, you'll realize that the old timers didn't do anything without a reason.

I can give you 2 REAL good reasons why but that would be too easy.
Let's see if you can "reason the reason".
I'll give you this one hint.

To those of you who have been so openly critical, I'll never rent you a mule and you'll never cut so much as a match stick on MY hillside.


Mike


----------



## Blazin (Jan 3, 2014)

slowp said:


> If you watch the cottonwood/hornets video, you can see how he took the face cut out in chunks and even cut into it so he could get the chunk with the nail out. That might have worked for the Ohio tree.



You need to read some more


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 3, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> Did you ever stop to wonder where the "farmer cut" came from?
> Or why it is still in use?
> Now I have no doubt that it originated in the days of felling with axes, but why did it stay in vogue when the crosscut saw replaced the axe? Or when the chainsaw replaced the crosscut?
> If you folks will just think about it, you'll realize that the old timers didn't do anything without a reason.





I can't wait to find out if it's still pertinent opcorn:


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 3, 2014)

I've been thinking real hard on why the old timers used it but to no avail. So I started researching and came across this little video on sloping back cuts and holding wood strength. I think it's a great little way to explain it to some of us "noobs" as someone so lightly put it before!


----------



## Toddppm (Jan 3, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> I read the majority of the last two pages last night and got mighty pizzed!
> I sat down and started writing a scathing admonition and about the time I finished I read it back to myself and thought "Dang that makes me sound as snotty and condescending as they are".
> 
> Did you ever stop to wonder where the "farmer cut" came from?
> ...




I think it just gives the false impression that it's helping send the tree over because it's sloping and somehow pushing the trunk over with the angle.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 3, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> If you folks will just think about it, you'll realize that the old timers didn't do anything without a reason.


I'm interested to hear your reasons for the sloping back cut Mike, but sure I agree with that line. I spend a fair amount of time learning about traditional tools and methods and have come to understand the truth of that.


----------



## bootboy (Jan 3, 2014)

Mopar:

I know it was to ease skidding with a mule. That chunk off the butt end made it less likely to snag on the ground as it was being dragged.

The thing is though, the people who do it nowadays have no clue that that's what it was for. They just do "cuz that's how it's done". 

I can reason the reasons, but they don't apply, so I don't use them. It's generally a good idea to know the reason you are doing something a certain way. That way, you can be mindful of pitfalls and open to other ideas. Don't get tunnel vision and miss a critical safety issue.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 3, 2014)

bootboy said:


> Mopar:
> 
> I know it was to ease skidding with a mule. That chunk off the butt end made it less likely to snag on the ground as it was being dragged.
> 
> ...




That and the erosion issue when logging these Kentucky hillsides.
This video should give you a good idea of how badly a butt cut log can tear up the ground.
Look at 1:04 and see the way this little pecker pole digs into the ground. Imagine if it were a real log.




Here is another that should give you an Idea what I'm talking about.

Notice the butt end of the log at :37 and the extremely small (for the size of the log) trail it leaves when the horses drag it.




Mike


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 3, 2014)

In the old days, they didn't have TV for shows like axemen, etc, so slopping back cutters were the celebrity reality show stars of their day. Folk came from three counties away to watch assorted jackasses of their generation compete to see who could created the steepest angles and live to tell the tale?


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 3, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> That and the erosion issue when logging these Kentucky hillsides.
> This video should give you a good idea of how badly a butt cut log can tear up the ground.
> Look at 1:04 and see the way this little pecker pole digs into the ground. Imagine if it were a real log.
> 
> Mike




Joking aside, that is an interesting history lesson. Certainly makes sense for the time period.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 3, 2014)

KiwiBro said:


> In the old days, they didn't have TV for shows like axemen, etc, so slopping back cutters were the celebrity reality show stars of their day. Folk came from three counties away to watch assorted jackasses of their generation compete to see who could created the steepest angles and live to tell the tale?




There's a touch of that snotty assed condescending attitude I referred to before.
And from someone who isn't even smart enough to make a good hillbilly!!!
It would sure be nice if I could buy you for what you're worth and sell you for half of what you think you're worth!


Mike


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 3, 2014)

Nuzzy said:


> Joking aside, that is an interesting history lesson. Certainly makes sense for the time period.



It's still just as relevant today if you are logging or firewooding a hillside.
All you need to do is snag a root or rock when snaking a log up a hillside.
What happens next is the chain tightens up, the governor opens up on the tractor which raises the front wheels off the ground. Unless you have a tractor with a differential lock, the power is transferred to the right wheel and the tractor turns back downhill really fast. Now you have a runaway tractor going toward the bottom of the hill at a high rate of speed and a log behind you in a drag race.....literally. Things get really nasty really quick.


Mike


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 3, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> There's a touch of that snotty assed condescending attitude I referred to before.
> And from someone who isn't even smart enough to make a good hillbilly!!!
> It would sure be nice if I could buy you for what you're worth and sell you for half of what you think you're worth!
> 
> ...


Settle, Petal.
Life's way too short to get wound up over such a pathetic issue like this.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Jan 3, 2014)

Am I missing something, or is there a reason you can't make the angled cut once the tree is on the ground -- keeping the better control of a standard back cut and the ease to skid of an angled butt. You're going to lose the same amount of log either way. The sloping back cut is going to land facing up anyways, so you or your team are going to need to roll the log over anyways to take advantage of it.


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 3, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> It's still just as relevant today if you are logging or firewooding a hillside.
> All you need to do is snag a root or rock when snaking a log up a hillside.
> What happens next is the chain tightens up, the governor opens up on the tractor which raises the front wheels off the ground. Unless you have a tractor with a differential lock, the power is transferred to the right wheel and the tractor turns back downhill really fast. Now you have a runaway tractor going toward the bottom of the hill at a high rate of speed and a log behind you in a drag race.....literally. Things get really nasty really quick.
> 
> ...




I suppose I would make the argument that tractor skidding is better done with lifting the butt of the log, or using a skidding cone or log arch. I can see using hand tools that making one cut was potentially superior to making additional cuts after the log was down. However, with modern chainsaws, one could whittle away to their hearts content if they want to make a pencil of the butt for skidding. Using a more dangerous felling cut just seems irresponsible. 


Then again, farmers are a funny breed. A kin of a friend was more than happy doing a one sloping cut no face straight through every tree he took. When **** went south, he'd just crank up his big tractor and chain that tree right out. Did that for 30 years and never saw fit to change.


----------



## Nuzzy (Jan 3, 2014)

Dalmatian90 said:


> Am I missing something, or is there a reason you can't make the angled cut once the tree is on the ground -- keeping the better control of a standard back cut and the ease to skid of an angled butt. You're going to lose the same amount of log either way. The sloping back cut is going to land facing up anyways, so you or your team are going to need to roll the log over anyways to take advantage of it.




You're not missing anything. If you were using an ax or misery whip, you might want to limit the number of cuts you had to make. With a chainsaw, it's a moot point. This of course, is just my opinion. opcorn:


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Jan 3, 2014)

Nuzzy said:


> You're not missing anything. If you were using an ax or misery whip, you might want to limit the number of cuts you had to make. With a chainsaw, it's a moot point. This of course, is just my opinion. opcorn:



I'm not even sure that is true with folks who are expert with the ax or two-man saw, both how to use them and how to keep them sharp and aligned. Forest Service has done some tests in wildland areas clearing snags after a tornado and the crews using hand tools can almost keep up with the chainsaw crew -- like accomplishing 95% as much over two weeks.

I'd love to understand more about the transition to chainsaws, but I suspect some of it was allowing folks with less skill to do the same job as quickly, and some of it (eventually) was to allow one man to do what had taken two men on a cross cut to do as quickly.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 3, 2014)

You are both correct in that it isn't nearly as much work as it used to be.
It just depends on the tree, the environment, the equipment you have at hand, and the time you are dealing with.
There are many times that the "farmer cut" is just as good as any other. Times when it is asking for a helicopter or hearse ride.
Just as with many other methods and techniques.
The blanket statement that "There is NEVER any reason....." just isn't correct.
As with all the tools and techniques available to the woodcutter you have to know when it won't matter and when it will get you killed.


Mike


----------



## woodchuck357 (Jan 3, 2014)

Know a lot of farmers, never saw one make a sloping back cut. The only people I have ever seen use it were city folks newly moved to the country. Also have been around a lot of horse and mule logging and have never saw pointy ends on their logs. Most don't use sleds or cones either.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 4, 2014)

I love a good history lesson...


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I love a good history lesson...


Same. Even detention while being schooled is worth the price of admission.


----------



## raycarr (Jan 4, 2014)

Some of us know baloney when we hear it.


----------



## paccity (Jan 4, 2014)

wow to all this ,. LOL!


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 4, 2014)

paccity said:


> wow to all this ,. LOL!


The great thing about these sorts of websites with a semi-global reach is that at any one time there's always a full moon, somewhere. Equally, there's always at least a few posters who have forgotten to take their meds. Good times, good times.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 4, 2014)

GOL allows slopping backcuts a long as they bored up and out.
Read that some place on the www. seriously. ask Ginger. she used to post here.


----------



## slowp (Jan 4, 2014)

I went to a GOL. Slopping backcuts were discouraged. The instructor was a production cutter from Wisconsin who had changed his presentation to reflect the methods used out here. The main emphasis was on being safe. It's a good course for learning safety. It does not make one an expert cutter and one should realize that. They teach basics. I didn't like working with strangers. The guy I partnered with actually went to grab the tip of my saw while it was running. I didn't know this but it was a habit with me to flip the chain brake right away when I stopped and I happened to stop just then to ask a question. The instructor was in the process of batting the guy hand away with an axe handle and was able to stop that in time. 

He taught the bore cut method. But he also answered and demonstrated anything else we had questions on and we could use conventional cuts--Humboldts if we wanted.
He even had a longer bar on his saw so fit in except he couldn't pronounce Oregon in the style of us natives so humorously referred to it as that state across the river. He did not leave us feeling we were experts. We weren't. 

I didn't go to the advanced classes.


----------



## slowp (Jan 4, 2014)

Using the slopping back cut for clearance of skidding? I don't think so. Out here, if the ground is flat enough to use a skidder on, it is flat enough to use a feller buncher on and those beasties get stumps low. There are some small outfits who still hand fall for skidders, but they all use the Humboldt and get low stumps. The stumps that cause problems are the stumps left from the first entry--those large diameter stumps. I've never seen evidence of a slopping back cut on those, either. The contracts usually specify a maximum stump height measured from the downhill side. On our contracts it is 12 inches. Back in the old growth days it was 12 inches or 1/3 the stump diameter.

If a stump is a problem on a skidder job, the skidder operator takes a saw out and cuts it flatter or might slope it a bit. On a yarder job, the rigging crew will slice off the stump.

Forest Service contracts require one end suspension, but there are times when that can't happen because of the shape of the ground. A good yarding crew will also realize that one end suspension means less hanging up and they'll try to get it. Steep ground=good lift=good payloads.

Here's an old stump from the first entry. Note the springboard holes.



Here's a place where there was very little "Lift". Note how low the carriage is. It is in the process of lateral yarding--snaking the logs into the skyline corridor where they'll go straight down to the landing. Downhill yarding is slow. Everybody hates it.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2014)

You always want "one end suspension", whenever possible.

Even when getting a firewood skidding permit from the FS. . . If you mention "lift", they'll let you skid a mile. Also, you have to be professional, know what your talking about -- and make some trades. Like, "I'll clean the ditch down to the culvert (of existing debris), but I want to cut those fir way back there, and I'll do some lop and scatter of my stuff too." You might even find yourself walking the area with the forester, commenting on all the slopping stumps, and how you can see where they lost directional control. 

The genealogy of the slopping back-cut is a mystery to me, but as has been proven many times over -- in this thread alone -- it's not a good technique.

Those in denial will still do it, and that's okay. But you'll never find it taught by anyone truly considered a professional in any field of forestry/arboriculture/logging.

Not being snobby -- it's the truth.


----------



## Blazin (Jan 4, 2014)

Where's the beatin a dead horse smiley?


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2014)

Blazin said:


> Where's the beatin a dead horse smiley?



It's right under the "I have a potty mouth" one.


----------



## Blazin (Jan 4, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> It's right under the "I have a potty mouth" one.


LOLZ! X2


----------



## twochains (Jan 4, 2014)

paccity said:


> wow to all this ,. LOL!



^^^ this!


----------



## twochains (Jan 4, 2014)

Poor choice of face height followed by a poor face. And yes, I cut both hardwood and pine daily on a production basis. Turning away from that wretched cut and looking back at the camera man was just almost too much to watch...very dangerous. You must remain focused on what you are doing and need not be paying attention to other people. Ash is very busty anyway...poor choice of tree to cut by someone with only 20 trees to their belt...you are very lucky that things didn't go really really bad there!...and to cut it at chest height....OMFG! WOW!


----------



## bootboy (Jan 4, 2014)

Dalmatian90 said:


> Am I missing something, or is there a reason you can't make the angled cut once the tree is on the ground -- keeping the better control of a standard back cut and the ease to skid of an angled butt. You're going to lose the same amount of log either way. The sloping back cut is going to land facing up anyways, so you or your team are going to need to roll the log over anyways to take advantage of it.




Originally it was done with one cut off the stump because they had cross cut saws and or felled it with an axe. To take the time and energy to make a second cut once on the ground would mean a significant expenditure of energy. 

Like I said though most of the people who practice the sloping back cut today have no clue why they do it that way. If they did, they'd maybe, just maybe, figure out that you can cut it again easily which a chainsaw.


----------



## twochains (Jan 4, 2014)

bootboy said:


> Originally it was done with one cut off the stump because they had cross cut saws and or felled it with an axe. To take the time and energy to make a second cut once on the ground would mean a significant expenditure of energy.
> 
> Like I said though most of the people who practice the sloping back cut today have no clue why they do it that way. If they did, they'd maybe, just maybe, figure out that you can cut it again easily which a chainsaw.



I walk by old cross cut stumps every day on a tract I am cutting....zero of them are sloped...ever


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 4, 2014)

I cringe every time I see a stump with the sloping back cut. Have stopped to tell a guy that was a good way to kill himself too. He didn't even have a face cut! I looked around where he was cutting and he had about 20 trees cut down, and ALL of them had barber chaired! Showed him the right way to cut and he was happy to learn. New guy with a saw and had NO knowledge whatsoever on how to cut a tree down.

Ted


----------



## twochains (Jan 4, 2014)

Cheers Ted! ...and I still LOVE your avatar!


----------



## 1270d (Jan 4, 2014)

Whew.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2014)

1270d said:


> Whew.



Just finish a jog?


----------



## 1270d (Jan 4, 2014)

More like a slog. Folks getting testy at loggers again? Makes me teary eyed.





With laughter

Maybe I spend too much time by myself in the woods


----------



## KiwiBro (Jan 4, 2014)

Where was the "hold my beer" at the start of the vid?

Have to laugh at the comments towards the end:
"get out of there Mike" quickly followed by another voice saying "little bit more". Genius. Pure Genius.

Got some pictures somewhere of me bucking a log while straddling a kayak and a ladder. This site has lost the one of my high-wind barber chair.


----------



## Steve NW WI (Jan 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> I got a whole fencerow to tip into the field this weekend...
> They all have to be cut at 4' or higher so the dozer can get a fit on em'...
> After I dump em' I'll cut the tops at an angle and get a pic of 100 trees in a row with sloping cuts, then put it on the L&F Forum...
> That aught to be fun...



After I waded through 11 pages of this, I NEED to see this one.



Can't say I'm taking sides here. The "Pros" are just that, they're not teachers. They did'nt spend years learning how to communicate what they're trying to say. Some have been giving advice (good advice) here for a long time, and are fed up from being ignored when their opinion is asked.

On the other hand, it's a good ole boys (and girl) network to some extent. It wasn't many months ago that I put a couple pics in the "Not so pros" (which I think I fit into) thread, and was told by a guy that can't tell 14,000 from 15,000 posts I'd be better off putting it up in the firewood section.

On the OP's video - the best lesson to be learned is that once things go to hell in a handbasket (when the wedge from the notch jammed in the trunk), it's time to back away and come up with a plan B. Perhaps the best plan B there was to stay the heck out from under it till the wind did it's thing, wouldn't have stood long, and that tree wasn't out in a public place.

Seems everyone's a little cranky lately. Go stand by the stove for a minute, warm up, and try to smile.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 4, 2014)

Steve NW WI said:


> After I waded through 11 pages of this, *I NEED to see this one.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
yup, front row seats are going for an arm n leg. nearly sold out

wait'll cabin fever sets in. 






lfnh said:


> GOL allows slopping backcuts a long as they bored up and out.
> Read that some place on the www. seriously. ask Ginger. she used to post here.


 
meh, mayebe that's down n out. Ginger bakes a better cookie than she cuts


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 4, 2014)




----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 4, 2014)

Lumber jacks vs farmers!


----------



## slowp (Jan 4, 2014)

Well, there are farmer loggers....(turn head and spit.) That's just the way it is...opcorn:


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 4, 2014)

> Ash is very busty anyway...poor choice of tree to cut by someone with only 20 trees to their belt...you are very lucky that things didn't go really really bad there!...and to cut it at chest height....OMFG! WOW!



Dear twochains,
I was the guy who was holding the video. I get your point though.

So today I was back at the site and I was there early. I wanted to scope out the rest of the trees and I had a video for you all but I hit pause when I should have hit play and vice versa so most of it is the camera pointing at the ground as I walk. Oh well!

In this wood lot there are a bunch of double and triple trunk ash trees. I was scoping them out when I heard some cracking. (wind was blowing this morn) So I peeled the bark of this one tree and lo and behold Deja Vu. Looks just like the other tree only it has a twin!




I made sure the other guy seen this tree and told him to stay the hell away from it. Hopefully it comes down in the storm tonight! 
I cut down 4 small ash trees today. One heavy leaner that I used a T cut on. Worked pretty well. I practiced some regular notches and back cuts on the other three and I really need to work on the placement of the back cut. One was even with face and one was below. The other was almost spot on! 

So far I have pulled almost 4 cord out of this site. 3 is split and stacked and the other one is stacked up in rounds. The splitting maul can't keep up with how fast I bring it home.

Any advice on cutting big triple trunk ash? The base is one trunk and about 5 feet up they split into three. BIG tree.
I'm hoping the wind knocks that one down too!


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 4, 2014)

Best get some spring boards for that one. If you cut it low they'll split and all take off different directions


----------



## bootboy (Jan 4, 2014)

The tree pictured above can still be brought down. Sound it of course with a few good whacks with your axe. Its well within the realm of possibility that the tree has good wood under that rotten exposed stuff. Bore it to check. If it's sketchy, leave it. If it's sound, dump it. Just do all of your cutting below the defect and don't waste any time in the back cut, get a good wedge in, commit to it, and then retreat when it starts over. I can't se how rotten it is just from that pic, so you'll need to assess it in person.

As for the ash, there are multiple ways to do multiple stem trees. The methods vary widely on the specific scenario though. 

Is it truly single stem below the split? Or does it actually split low and have several feet of trunk above it with included bark? Which way do the stems lean, in general and in relation to the others? Are the branches of each stem independent or inter-grown with the others? A lot of factors at play here. 

Pics would be helpful.


----------



## twochains (Jan 4, 2014)

Bushmans, you have a stunning avatar pic also!  In order to get any sound advice on a tree, pictures usually portray to scenario better. Show some pics of the main stem and show if there are any growth seams leading from the codoms into the main stem and anything else that someone would need to see, and I bet you will get some good advice. The growth seams will dictate whether the tree can be felled w/o having problems with the codominate leaders splitting down the trunk. Be safe out there! Old time loggers here say an Ash is just waiting to kill a logger.


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 4, 2014)

> Bushmans, you have a stunning avatar pic also!  In order to get any sound advice on a tree, pictures usually portray to scenario better. Show some pics of the main stem and show if there are any growth seams leading from the codoms into the main stem and anything else that someone would need to see, and I bet you will get some good advice. The growth seams will dictate whether the tree can be felled w/o having problems with the codominate leaders splitting down the trunk. Be safe out there! Old time loggers here say an Ash is just waiting to kill a logger.



I had a video of the dang thing but screwed it up.
I wont' be back for a few days and I hope this big storm knocks 'em all down. The main trunk is probably around 40" or so. Each trunk goes in opposite direction of other ones. There is so much wood in that one tree it's crazy.

The avatar is my wife.....she just doesn't know it yet!


----------



## Bushmans (Jan 4, 2014)

[QUOTE
s it truly single stem below the split? Or does it actually split low and have several feet of trunk above it with included bark? Which way do the stems lean, in general and in relation to the others? Are the branches of each stem independent or inter-grown with the others? A lot of factors at play here. 

Pics would be helpful.
][/QUOTE]

I'll get some pics.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2014)

Bushmans said:


> Dear twochains,
> I was the guy who was holding the video. I get your point though.
> 
> So today I was back at the site and I was there early. I wanted to scope out the rest of the trees and I had a video for you all but I hit pause when I should have hit play and vice versa so most of it is the camera pointing at the ground as I walk. Oh well!
> ...



Oh, here we go again!


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 4, 2014)

bushmans, I honestly try to fall multibles independently if at all possible. deffenetly not for just learning.
that cracked one wouldn't bother me as much, I bet it not cracked thru. try to fall those with the natural lean and cut at a comfortable height. open face back cut without a lot of playin around. if you put in a good open face then when it starts and you LEAVE it will go ahead and fall and do what its gonna do.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2014)

twochains said:


> Bushmans, you have a stunning avatar pic also!  In order to get any sound advice on a tree, pictures usually portray to scenario better. Show some pics of the main stem and show if there are any growth seams leading from the codoms into the main stem and anything else that someone would need to see, and I bet you will get some good advice. The growth seams will dictate whether the tree can be felled w/o having problems with the codominate leaders splitting down the trunk. Be safe out there! Old time loggers here say an Ash is just waiting to kill a logger.



Clint, his avatar is a ploy used to pry information from our super secret playbook. . . And I'll be damned if it isn't working! 

I want to see this ash-hydra too. opcorn:


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 4, 2014)

I was cutting a triple trunked ash one time. The three trunks were each different sizes, so I worked my way up from the smallest. The first came off uneventfully. Just as the second was dropping, the largest (about 12") that I had not touched at all just broke off and fell over. It did not look punky at all, so I had not tapped on it to check it out.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 4, 2014)

easy bro, I think he really wants advice. if look back all the hubbub weren't the op.


----------



## twochains (Jan 4, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> Clint, his avatar is a ploy used to pry information from our super secret playbook. . . And I'll be damned if it isn't working!
> 
> I want to see this ash-hydra too. opcorn:



something about his avatar pic is mesmerizing ain't it...soothing to the brain!  Makes me wish there was a beach down in Little Rock! Whoot! I said "someone" would give advice...I don't do that...just giving him an idea of what to provide in order to maybe get some sound advice.


----------



## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> easy bro, I think he really wants advice. if look back all the hubbub weren't the op.



All good on my end. . . I have a hunch Bushmans is good folks.


----------



## northmanlogging (Jan 4, 2014)

I made it to page 5 before I got bored with the whole east-west, hard-soft wood fight... If I missed something important BFD...



Bushmans said:


> We were cutting some dead ash today and came across this guy. It had a horizontal crack about 5 foot up the tree.
> We were not sure how far the crack came through the tree so it was decided to cut the wedge above the crack. We didn't want the tree to break in half once it started to move. A strong lean to the left didn't help matters.
> In hindsight I think we should have cut it down at the base like normal. This is an example of how things can go wrong when cutting a tree. I'm just glad he got it on the ground without getting hurt. Trees are so unpredictable! It pinched down on it's own wedge before it could come out.
> I wish I had come across this particular situation in all my time here on AS.
> ...




For the record this video both scared the **** out of me and made me feel better about chairing an alder this morning.



slowp said:


> You are NEVER obligated to cut down a tree that you are uncomfortable about. That's like a Prime Directive.



I walk away from many trees, sometimes I come back later with more equipment other times I never return, unfortunately for me I'm the owner of my little logging show, so if there is any kind of danger/snag/iffy tree or situation, I'm the guy that must deal with it or no one can work in that area until the situation has been dealt with. This means a whole bunch of pucker factor and a few less years on the ole ticker for me, but everyone goes home at the end of the day.



Bushmans said:


> I guess the main thing I was looking for was this:
> 
> "That tree looks dangerous"
> "Nah I'm gonna cut it anyways"
> ...



Ok here goes, and no I don't care if somebody else answered before me...

First off never run a saw over a height that you are comfortable with, from the video dude could barely hold the damn thing up, He would have been safer making a waist high cut, rather then holding it a neck level. 

When in doubt put a wrapper on it, chains and binders are my preferred, I suppose a heavy duty (3" or better) nylon tie down would do, I just wouldn't trust it.

He made his face cut way to deep, but we all knew that right... 1/3 diameter is a good rule of thumb, as a starting point anyways, you can always go deeper if needed or make it a little shallower if you need to stick a wedge in a smalllish tree. But whatever you do clean the god's damned face out, a dutchmen is there to help steer a tree when needed (as in damnit I gunned it wrong) leaving the whole thing in is asking for some serious **** to hit the fan.

As far as over or undercut for the notch... whatever your comfortable with, its firewood not production timber.

Now the meat and taters, the face and gun cuts are important don't get me wrong, they direct the tree, but the back cut is possibly the most important cut, it should be level and just a touch above the gun cut, Slopping back cuts are called farmer/hack cuts for a gods damned reason, not just because they are ugly but because they are very dangerous. Anyway... on a leaner you have a number of options to help prevent chairing, none are perfect, the GOL bore and strap type, and the Coos bay (triangle or T whatever), I personally the prefer the triangle Coos, its quicker and allows me to steer the tree a bit if needed, and frankly I haven't had much luck with the GOL its to ****ing easy to leave to little hold wood and pinch your saw, or leave to much and chair the bastard anyway. Next and possibly the most important, once that top starts moving either get the **** out and stay out or keep cutting until the tree commits to fall, then run like Hel. If that tree stalls cause you where to busy dicking about talking to earl or playing pocket pool that is the moment that it will chair.

One last thing before I go, be very careful using wedges in dead standing timber, smacking them can and will lead to the top busting out and aiming for your scrawny neck. That being said sometimes you need a wedge in a snag, use it (Hel use em anyway), just be aware of the danger from beating on them.

You got it on the ground and had the balls to ask how to do it better, I call that a win, kinda, well sorta anyway... like the seahawks... 

Hope this helps,


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 4, 2014)

Metals406 said:


> All good on my end. . . I have a hunch Bushmans is good folks.


Yup...
Just a guy tryin to do stuff the right way..
And stuff...


----------



## bitzer (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm impressed the ash didn't chair. Especially when the face wasn't poped out. A face can always be knocked out. Just takes a little doing. I'm too ******* tired to read this whole thing tonight. Had to chime in tho! Always love a good technique fight. Bottom line nothing the cutter did was necessary. Cut the tree-fine. But nothing justified his actions other than fear. I cut super ugly dead snags and loaded up **** all the time. Sometimes its necessary to get em out of my strip so the rest of my work can be safer. Coming at that tree and trees like them with a plan of action and a cool head are about the only way to handle em. I do it everyday and make my decisions in seconds, because I have too. I am just really impressed that it didn't chair. Luckier then dogshit really.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Jan 5, 2014)

bootboy said:


> Originally it was done with one cut off the stump because they had cross cut saws and or felled it with an axe. To take the time and energy to make a second cut once on the ground would mean a significant expenditure of energy.



I'm going to go Missouri on this and say I'd have to have someone who is expert in cross cut sawing show me a sloping back cut is more efficient.

I have a hard time believing cutting non-horizontal with a cross cut saw is very efficient -- that's not the way the teeth are designed to cut. Removing wood in a sloped direction is something you do chopping with an axe.

The more I've thought of this, the following sequence seems much more reasonable:

(1) Saw the horizontal portion of a conventional face cut
(2) Chop out the top portion of the face cut, perhaps taller than we do now to make skidding easier
(3) Saw the horizontal back cut to fell the tree
(4) Tree lands with the face cut towards the ground -- the direction you need it to make skidding easier
(5) Hook the team so they can twitch the log away from the stump (and you normally twitch to start any heavy load animals are pulling), and they're hooked to the butt end so they can keep on pulling.

The sloping back cut just seems like it's less efficient because you would be using the wrong tool for the job (saw instead of ax), one the wrong side (you always have to roll the log first before skidding), and with less ability to use wedges to help fell the tree.


----------



## rms61moparman (Jan 5, 2014)

Dalmatian90 said:


> I'm going to go Missouri on this and say I'd have to have someone who is expert in cross cut sawing show me a sloping back cut is more efficient.
> 
> I have a hard time believing cutting non-horizontal with a cross cut saw is very efficient -- that's not the way the teeth are designed to cut. Removing wood in a sloped direction is something you do chopping with an axe.
> 
> ...




1) No one said the sloping back cut was more efficient than a horizontal back cut.
What was said was felling the tree with a sloping back cut was more efficient than felling it with a horizontal cut and then making another cut to get the slope.
There can be no possible disagreement with that statement. Making one cut is ALWAYS more efficient than making two cuts. 
2) The saw is dumb. It doesn't know if you are using it horizontally or at an angle unless the angle is so steep that you are in essence using a crosscut saw for a rip saw.
3) I find it difficult to believe that you have ever skidded a log anywhere with a log chain. It is constantly rolling from one side to the other and invariably if there is only one sloping side, that side like the butter on dropped toast WILL find its way to the bottom.
If there is a slope on each side it is virtually impossible to not have a thin (blunt) point which will break away much easier when it meets a solid obstruction than a solid vertical butt, or a slope on the bottom.
4) It almost seems as if some here are being intentionally obtuse.
5) I'm beginning to understand how Christopher Columbus must have felt.



Mike


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 5, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> 5) I'm beginning to understand how Christopher Columbus must have felt.
> Mike



I had NO idea that Columbus was a logger! 

Ted


----------



## twochains (Jan 5, 2014)

And to think I was obtuse in thinking Columbus was just another European syphilic along with some Spanish explorers (DeSota) who came here spreading their wealth of small pox and syphilis to the indigenous peoples of the the North American continent...who knew. I can hear it now..."These skin lesions I bring you are Angel Kisses, we bring wealth and knowledge". LOL! 

I skid logs for years with horses and have never found any such use for a sloped butt end of a log. A good horse will get himself unhung off a stump...not to mention that the guy holding the lines should try to avoid stumps on the pull anyway.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Jan 5, 2014)

rms61moparman said:


> 1) No one said the sloping back cut was more efficient than a horizontal back cut.
> What was said was felling the tree with a sloping back cut was more efficient than felling it with a horizontal cut and then making another cut to get the slope.
> There can be no possible disagreement with that statement. Making one cut is ALWAYS more efficient than making two cuts.
> 2) The saw is dumb. It doesn't know if you are using it horizontally or at an angle unless the angle is so steep that you are in essence using a crosscut saw for a rip saw.
> ...



Not being intentionally obtuse, I'm just not getting this whole "sloping back cut was to make it easier to skid trees on hilly land" argument -- and it's getting weaker the more folks talk about it.

If you've made a face cut that which is "sloped" along the face of the log, and you make a sloping back cut...

And this is true:


> I find it difficult to believe that you have ever skidded a log anywhere with a log chain. It is constantly rolling from one side to the other and invariably if there is only one sloping side, that side like the butter on dropped toast WILL find its way to the bottom.



You're still left with two sides of the log that aren't sloped, albeit they have fairly small profiles. But still you'll have two flat areas that will want to dig in as that log is rolling.

Have I skidded with chains? Yes, not often and not far behind tractors and trucks. The tractor having a 3 point hitch to lift the butt.

What do you guys do with the next log up the trunk to skid it? 

Cut slopes on both sides of the log as well?


----------



## michael.kitko (Jan 5, 2014)

That one wasn't nearly as bad as one of the ones we dropped that was hanging over my house. It seems as though all the trees here in CT like to lean over houses. The tree that we dropped had to swing 45 degrees to miss the house and its base was only 30 feet from the garage, leaned over 70 feet and it was 115 foot tall. We anchored the base to keep it from moving and used a rope anchored at the top of another tree to swing it. Ours hung up too just like that one. I am glad yours came out well like ours did. Nice video.

Sent from my CAT B15 smartphone.


----------



## northmanlogging (Jan 5, 2014)

All this talk of slopping back cuts is making me nauseous. Sloping back cuts are just lazy, do nothing to prevent chairing if anything make chairing easier, are slower since your cutting mostly with the grain, make wedging useless. And I really don't care if that's how its done in your parts of the the planet, that just means no one knows how to fall a tree, and everyone is fallowing the leader and not paying attention to physics.

The higher/lower from the face cut you start the more likely you are to have a chair, just saying.


----------



## paccity (Jan 5, 2014)

i can't believe that it's still being argued over. most know how i stand on this. and some of you should know better.


----------



## woodchuck357 (Jan 5, 2014)

Chris and his crews imported syphilis to Europe, they picked it up FROM the natives. They also took lumber back, so I guess he WAS a logger! Sorta


----------



## northmanlogging (Jan 5, 2014)

Dalmatian90 said:


> I'm not even sure that is true with folks who are expert with the ax or two-man saw, both how to use them and how to keep them sharp and aligned. Forest Service has done some tests in wildland areas clearing snags after a tornado and the crews using hand tools can almost keep up with the chainsaw crew -- like accomplishing 95% as much over two weeks.
> 
> I'd love to understand more about the transition to chainsaws, but I suspect some of it was allowing folks with less skill to do the same job as quickly, and some of it (eventually) was to allow one man to do what had taken two men on a cross cut to do as quickly.



I'm calling ******** on this one, 1 chainsaw vs 8 hand cutters maybe, any of you jokers ever try undercutting with a hand saw? There is a reason that hand sawing went the way of the dodo back in the 50's, chainsaws are faster safer and more efficient period, and they've only gotten better since then.

And it had nothing to do with skill, any joker can drag a piece of metal back and forth, especially when someone is yarding on the other end of it. And up until the 80's falling crews where still a two man job in big timber, single jacking didn't come around until second growth logging became common.


----------



## bitzer (Jan 5, 2014)

Bushman- I was way too tired last night to get into any serious discussion. This is how I would have cut that tree. About waist high or wherever it was the easiest to keep an eye on the top. With the crack in the tree running front to back it plays a small part in how you fall the tree. If the crack was running the other way then it gets a little trickier. Face the tree as normal and make sure it is wide open. Even put a little snipe on top or bottom (basically another chip out opposite either your conventional or Humboldt face). I would then start my back cut standing behind the tree with the tip near the hinge. Basically your bar would point to the lay as you work your way toward the middle of the tree. When you get to about the middle I would do the same on the opposite side. The tree would most likely go well before you get back to match your other cut. I'm sure the tree had a little side lean with the forward lean as well. Typically cut the lean side of the back cut first. You really have to watch where your tip is at when doing this type of back cut. Its really easy to get pinched. As long as you keep it forward to back it should be fine. Its really hard to say without being there. I may even bore the heart from the face a little. Maybe a different style of back cut. Its hard to say. You do need to bust the face out and get it good and wide open though. An axe or maybe a little reaming with the saw will do it. He is really lucky the tree didn't chair. Ash barber chair very easily. The deep face cut might be why. If he sawed past most of the compression wood all that would be holding it would be the tension wood. Sloping back cuts are not useful in anyway. I would not bore the back cut on a tree like this ever. As long as you have a wide open face and you remove the majority of the compression wood however possible you've got it handled. Just make sure you've got a great escape route and get the hell out when it starts to go. Knowing how to work with what you've got and knowing how to work with your mistakes makes a good timber faller.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 5, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> There is a reason that hand sawing went the way of the dodo back in the 50's


Yes, it's called gasoline. It makes all sorts of things much easier.


----------



## bitzer (Jan 5, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm calling ******** on this one, 1 chainsaw vs 8 hand cutters maybe, any of you jokers ever try undercutting with a hand saw? There is a reason that hand sawing went the way of the dodo back in the 50's, chainsaws are faster safer and more efficient period, and they've only gotten better since then.
> 
> And it had nothing to do with skill, any joker can drag a piece of metal back and forth, especially when someone is yarding on the other end of it. And up until the 80's falling crews where still a two man job in big timber, single jacking didn't come around until second growth logging became common.


I could easily out cut 8 guys with crosscuts and double bits.... If we could hop in a time machine and I'd go against the boys who really knew how to run their equipment then maybe. Think about it. I can dump a 30" red oak in less than a minute when its favorable to the lay. With wedging maybe add another minute. I bet it would take two guys at least 10 minutes with double bits and cross cuts to do the same. You are absolutely right Northman. That is total BS.


----------



## Blazin (Jan 5, 2014)

Oh for craps sake, let's just give the OP some advice on cutting a tree that is less than a perfect specimen. He NEVER mentioned a sloping back cut ever. And put your ****ing wedges away...all of of you, it was a rotten leaner


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 5, 2014)

Blazin said:


> Oh for craps sake, let's just give the OP some advice on cutting a tree that is less than a perfect specimen. He NEVER mentioned a sloping back cut ever. And put your ****ing wedges away...all of of you, it was a rotten leaner


Now you tell me! I lost 4 hard heads inside that rotten ****er!


----------



## JanThorCro (Mar 7, 2017)

I wish I had seen it for myself B4 the cutting started, for a good look see... I wonder if a shallow(er) notch may have allowed that wedge of wood to fall out like normal, creating a working hinge.


----------

