# Filing question



## Stihl Alive (Nov 26, 2008)

ok. I'm really trying to avoid buying (or even using my father in law's) chain grinder until I feel like I've perfected hand filing. Plus, I kind of enjoy doing it by hand. Long story short, my question is this. I want to be able to file chains off the bar. I'm thinking of getting a grandberg Filing guide. My idea is to just clamp an old bar in a vise and do it that way. The only bar I don't have in use is for a .325 chain. all my other ones are 3/8. This shouldn't hurt anything should it?


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## ShoerFast (Nov 26, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> ok. I'm really trying to avoid buying (or even using my father in law's) chain grinder until I feel like I've perfected hand filing. Plus, I kind of enjoy doing it by hand. Long story short, my question is this. I want to be able to file chains off the bar. I'm thinking of getting a grandberg Filing guide. My idea is to just clamp an old bar in a vise and do it that way. The only bar I don't have in use is for a .325 chain. all my other ones are 3/8. This shouldn't hurt anything should it?



If the grove is the same width it will work, but if the nose sprocket is a differant pitch, it will not roll as well as you might want, but do-able. 

My bench bar is a .050 solid-nose off an old David Bradely, I bought the whole saw for $5-bucks thinking I was going to grind knives out of the bar. (might be 5160 Spring-steel?) 

The saw has so few hours on it that its a good runner, I keep the power-head for the local kids to tinker with, they make noise with it and prastice tuning. (it's fun to bugger the settings and let then get t to rev again) 

Watch garage/yard and moving sales for the word 'chainsaw' you will find your bench-bar.


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## Rftreeman (Nov 26, 2008)

Stihl, just get yourself one of these, that is what I use and it will work with all your bars and chains, it mounts to the bar while it is on the saw and puts the same edge on all the cutters.


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## Bearcreek (Nov 26, 2008)

Why would you want to file a chain off the bar? I often sharpen my saws two to four times a day. Never felt the need to take them off to do it.


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## ShoerFast (Nov 26, 2008)

Or just throw the whole saw in a vice. 

Here is a 660 in the vice of my service truck, getting the DG's tweaked.


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## Rftreeman (Nov 26, 2008)

ShoerFast said:


> Or just throw the whole saw in a vice.
> 
> Here is a 660 in the vice of my service truck, getting the DG's tweaked.


that's usually what I do when at home but if I need to touch them up on the job I'll free hand them, I'm pretty good at keeping the cutters all at the same angle free handed but when I get home I use the vise and the guide.


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## Stihl Alive (Nov 26, 2008)

most of the time I just sharpen with a stump vise in the woods, or use a bench vise in the shop with the saw attached. But when I'm in a hurry in the field I just pop the dull one off and throw on a sharp one. Not to mention, I'm kind of anal about stuff building up on my chain, so I regularly soak them in cleaner, wash them, then soak them in oil before putting them back in my nice little labeled tupperware containers. :greenchainsaw:


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## ATH (Nov 26, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> ....I'm thinking of getting a grandberg Filing guide.....


Get one. I officially stink at free hand sharpening, and I have tried other guides, etc. The Grandberg does a great job.


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## Mike Van (Nov 27, 2008)

Use good files too! I tried to touch one up in the woods yesterday [I grind all mine] with a file that'd been in the bottom of the box for ????? I might as well have used a corn cob for as good as that file was. :bang:


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## Stihl Alive (Nov 27, 2008)

Mike Van said:


> Use good files too! I tried to touch one up in the woods yesterday [I grind all mine] with a file that'd been in the bottom of the box for ????? I might as well have used a corn cob for as good as that file was. :bang:




Does Stihl make a good round file?. I talked the dealer into giving me a dozen 13/64 round files when i got those two saws.


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## yooper (Nov 27, 2008)

Bearcreek said:


> Why would you want to file a chain off the bar? I often sharpen my saws two to four times a day. Never felt the need to take them off to do it.



I was wondering the same thing....if ya cant sharpen without a vise...try a small stump vice while in the woods. 
Taking the chain off to sharpen sounds like a terrible wast of time..It only takes a couple minuets to sharpen. 
Good luck


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## Crofter (Nov 27, 2008)

Bearcreek said:


> Why would you want to file a chain off the bar? I often sharpen my saws two to four times a day. Never felt the need to take them off to do it.



Well if you rock one out and have a fair bit to take off it is a lot easier to do it in a dead solid chain vise. If you are square filing it is a lot easier too. When I am bucking up skidded wood I often have to sharpen every ten minutes, sometimes sooner, and I dont take the chain off for that, but if you have a loose chain it is nice to rinse them off of oil to save your files. For precise sharpening it is easier if the tooth is not flopping around on the bar but locked solid to take its licks!


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## JONSEREDFAN6069 (Nov 27, 2008)

i can't sharpen a chain to save my life. either have my father in law do it or just buy a new one, think i have about 25 that need to be sharpened now, i get a good deal on em cause i buy em about 5 at a time. sharpened chains dont cut like new.


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## John Ellison (Nov 27, 2008)

JONSEREDFAN6069 said:


> sharpened chains dont cut like new.



Thats right, they cut better than new ones.


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## jomoco (Nov 27, 2008)

John Ellison said:


> Thats right, they cut better than new ones.



Touche John, touche! 

And completely free handed with a good pferd file no less!

jomoco


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## grandpatractor (Nov 27, 2008)

JONSEREDFAN6069 said:


> sharpened chains dont cut like new.



Your right!! If ya sharpen them right they cut faster!!:jawdrop:


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## JONSEREDFAN6069 (Nov 27, 2008)

guess i gotta find someone to sharpen em for me to see then, sorry just what i've noticed.


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## ATH (Nov 27, 2008)

JONSEREDFAN6069 said:


> i can't sharpen a chain to save my life. either have my father in law do it or just buy a new one, think i have about 25 that need to be sharpened now, i get a good deal on em cause i buy em about 5 at a time. sharpened chains dont cut like new.


The Grandberg File-N-Joint is $27 at Baileys (Link here). I had a collection of chains that I may have made more dull trying to free hand, then using the Oregon 12V grinder thing. They became like new with the File-N-Joint. (but as long as your father in law does it for free...hard to beat that...unless they are not as sharp as new, then maybe the $27 is well worth it.)


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## Rftreeman (Nov 27, 2008)

JONSEREDFAN6069 said:


> sharpened chains dont cut like new.


if you cut with one of my sharpened chains you'd be like this :jawdrop: 

I can put an edge on one pretty darn good free hand or not.


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 27, 2008)

sharpening chains by hand is an art. takes years to get really good at. And yes stihl sells good files. Pfered are good too. Just takes alot of practice and a little teaching. Mike


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Nov 28, 2008)

I got one of those log-vises from Baileys ! Just drive it in a log, sit down & clamp your bar & file your chain ! A great little, inexpensive tool !


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## Stihl Alive (Nov 28, 2008)

I do pretty well with the 13/64 and a file guide, either stump or bench vise. But like I said I sometimes just pop one off and put sharp one on to save time. What about the bench mount version of that filing guide at bailey's?


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## Musclenut (Dec 10, 2008)

You sharpen square chains different than round ones don't you? Can you still use a round file?


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## Stihl Alive (Dec 11, 2008)

Musclenut said:


> You sharpen square chains different than round ones don't you? Can you still use a round file?



I think you need an angled file for that. But I don't have any square chains.


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## treeslayer (Dec 11, 2008)

the side of a square file. If you use a round one, be prepared to work for the edge. you're going to have to cut a lot of metal.


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## Philbert (Dec 11, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> most of the time I just sharpen with a stump vise in the woods, or use a bench vise in the shop with the saw attached. But when I'm in a hurry in the field I just pop the dull one off and throw on a sharp one. :



I think that it is a good idea to carry a few extra sharp chains so that you can swap them out and keep on cutting if you hit a rock or something. Also lets you wear out a few chains together so that you can replace the sprocket and the chains around the same time, like the manufacturers recommend.

I used the Oregon version of the Grandberg for a while. Took an odd bar off of a junked saw and drove the rivets out of the nose sprocket so that it can be used with any pitch chain - just have to match the gauge. Mounts in the vice on my workbench and worked fine with the filing device.

Filing the chains on the 'bench bar' (as others have called it) also means that I keep the filings out of my working bar, and I don't have gas and oil from the powerhead dripping in my shop.

Philbert


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## pdqdl (Dec 12, 2008)

Musclenut said:


> You sharpen square chains different than round ones don't you? Can you still use a round file?



You need to be a little more precise with your question. 

Many people refer to chisel-tooth chain as "square chain", but it can be sharpened either "square ground" or "round ground". Unless I am mistaken, only chisel tooth chain is routinely sharpened "square ground". 

It might help you to understand that there are other shapes of cutters commonly used: semi-chisel, chipper, chamfer chisel, micro-chisel, etc.; each with their own advantages.

Here are some references to hand filing:

*Square filing instructions*: http://www.oregonchain.com/tech/ms_manual/ms_06.pdf
*
Round filing specifications for different chains*: http://www.oregonchain.com/tech/ms_manual/ms_04.pdf


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## Musclenut (Dec 13, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> You need to be a little more precise with your question.
> 
> Many people refer to chisel-tooth chain as "square chain", but it can be sharpened either "square ground" or "round ground". Unless I am mistaken, only chisel tooth chain is routinely sharpened "square ground".
> 
> ...



I was inquiring about sharpening a square / full chisel chain. I know how to make it a round cutter but I don't understand fully how to sharpen it to keep it as a square tooth.


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## Ax-man (Dec 13, 2008)

Crofter said:


> Well if you rock one out and have a fair bit to take off it is a lot easier to do it in a dead solid chain vise. If you are square filing it is a lot easier too. When I am bucking up skidded wood I often have to sharpen every ten minutes, sometimes sooner, and I dont take the chain off for that, but if you have a loose chain it is nice to rinse them off of oil to save your files. For precise sharpening it is easier if the tooth is not flopping around on the bar but locked solid to take its licks!



Agreed 100% Frank, Excellent post

I think this using an old bar in a vise is defeating the purpose of off bar sharpening.

An old cast off bar is usually worn out. The rails are thin, spread and uneven. This is not good for sharpening a chain as the cutter will rock to one side or another. How can a good job be done with something like this. The only way I know of is to use your thumb or fingers to provide an opposing force to keep the tooth from moving around. If this done then the other hand has to have a good steady file stroke with authority to shape and cut a new face on the cutter tooth. Not easy but can be done.

With a vise like you have both hands are free for the file and the cutter tooth is not moving around in the rails of an old bar. Even with a good bar there is some side movement in the rails but not all that much. 

Your on the right track with your chain vise. I can do a better job on the saw sharpening than I ever could with a bar in a vise and the chain off the saw. One of these years I am going to have a set-up like yours. Hopefully

Larry


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## Metals406 (Dec 13, 2008)

Here's a trick I learned from an old timer... Get a small 'pocket' adjustable wrench... Set it to the shortest tooth filed, and use it to gauge the rest of the teeth. It works really good.


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## Ole Smokey (Dec 13, 2008)

treeslayer said:


> the side of a square file. If you use a round one, be prepared to work for the edge. you're going to have to cut a lot of metal.



Where did you buy the set-up to sharpen with the square file?


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## Brushwacker (Dec 14, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Here's a trick I learned from an old timer... Get a small 'pocket' adjustable wrench... Set it to the shortest tooth filed, and use it to gauge the rest of the teeth. It works really good.



Great idea. I have been using the heads of my screwdrivers picking the 1 with blade width closest to cutter length I aim for. I think I'll like the wrench better.
As far as a new chain being faster then a sharpened 1 that happens because not everyone sharpens equally well and most often when you pay for a sharpening they don't put the time in it to do as well as it could be sharpened. Some just don't know how to get the best edge. If it cuts and makes some chips that seems good enough for many average chainsaw users.


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## Metals406 (Dec 14, 2008)

Brushwacker said:


> Great idea. I have been using the heads of my screwdrivers picking the 1 with blade width closest to cutter length I aim for. I think I'll like the wrench better.
> As far as a new chain being faster then a sharpened 1 that happens because not everyone sharpens equally well and most often when you pay for a sharpening they don't put the time in it to do as well as it could be sharpened. Some just don't know how to get the best edge. If it cuts and makes some chips that seems good enough for many average chainsaw users.



Sometimes I think I spend a little too much time sharpening my chains... The same with my knives... He11, with anything I own that has an edge!! My wife says it's a sickness.


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## jomoco (Dec 14, 2008)

I'm a commercial climber, but have had the opportunity to work with some west coast pro loggers over the years, and learned a great deal from them.

West coast loggers work primarily in soft wood conifers, therefore they primarily run square cut skip chisel chain, no other chain goes through soft conifer wood faster. Most loggers running long bars don't fool around hand sharpening chains in the field, they carry chain loops that have been sharpened on their Silvey square cut chain grinders, very expensive quality chain sharpeners, none better that I know of.

I was fascinated one day in the field watching a 3rd generation pro logger sharpen his 88. Pro loggers run scarily loose chains on their saws for some reason, and this guy was no exception. He just sat on the ground under his next tree, grabbed one of his wedges out of his pouch and stuffed it between his chain and lower bar rail, tight. Then he grabbed a triangular flat file, gave each right cutter 3 swipes with his left hand, then each left cutter 3 swipes with his right hand before pulling out the wedge and advancing the chain and stuffing it back in again. It took this guy less than 5 minutes, and he was running a 3 foot bar!

I've never seen saws fly through wood as fast as these pro loggers and their square cut skip chisel saws do. The logging world is entirely different than the commercial tree care world, and both can learn alot from each other.

jomoco


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## Brushwacker (Dec 15, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Sometimes I think I spend a little too much time sharpening my chains... The same with my knives... He11, with anything I own that has an edge!! My wife says it's a sickness.



Naw, sharp tools work so much better and faster, easiar ...


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## Metals406 (Dec 15, 2008)

Brushwacker said:


> Naw, sharp tools work so much better and faster, easiar ...



I agree 100%... If it's meant to have a sharp edge... Keep it sharp. My dad taught me that a dull knife is more dangerous than a sharp one... And I've seen that proven more than once.

Maybe I have SS (Sharpening Syndrome) as well as CAD?


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## Slvrmple72 (Dec 15, 2008)

I use the sure sharp inserts in my dremel with a flex shaft. I have a bar mounted to the front of my work bench. The larger chain I just sharpen on the saw. I can file the rakers and cutters with this setup just using an oregon depth gauge and disc shaped file for the rakers after I have sharpened the cutters. I use round chisel chain since I can sharpen it up quick out on the job when I need to. I freehand each chain in about 5 to 10 minutes depending on how rough it is. I usually hit the rakers every third sharpening. I have a bucket of oil from the drippings of oil qrts after each oil change. I upend the qrts over a large funnel and they drip into the bucket. I dunk each chain I have sharpened into the bucket and then hang it to drip dry. Wrap them in a shop cloth so I don't mix em up with the dull ones out on the job. The sharper the better, throwing big chips and not eatin dust!


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