# New At It in My Old Age ?



## Gregory Nash (Jun 20, 2011)

Just getting in to Arboriculture , I held on to carpentry for way to many years , layed off now for over a year. Starting over at my age maybe a problem, (46, ) . I joined this site and soon ISA.........


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## tuckerward (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm new to it also but i am only 18 but i say go for it man age is just a number dont let people tell you not to start something because your "too old" Theres arborist that climb daily that are 50 and 60 yrs old the oldest ive ever heard of the guy was like 84 and climbed daily so go for it man.


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## Gregory Nash (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you ! That means a lot to me ! Do you go to school for arboriculture ?


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## VA-Sawyer (Jun 20, 2011)

I was 50 when I started climbing some 4 years ago. Where in NC are you ?

Rick


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## mikegar (Jun 20, 2011)

If your passion for trees only developed after you got laid off, id recommend you find another career. This line of work can be thankless.


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## Gregory Nash (Jun 21, 2011)

mikegar said:


> If your passion for trees only developed after you got laid off, id recommend you find another career. This line of work can be thankless.


 
My passion for Trees started at an early age ,my grandmother and mother would walk around here and point out and name Trees to me ..... Grandfather built Log homes ... Construction I worked with wood ...... Anything I can do with wood ............


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## Gregory Nash (Jun 21, 2011)

VA-Sawyer said:


> I was 50 when I started climbing some 4 years ago. Where in NC are you ?
> 
> Rick


 
Got layed off in Asheville ,went out to Murphy and Andrews ,Topton with a little side work and a lot of trout fishing,I will work my way back to Asheville in the Fall ,maybe before...........


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## Gregory Nash (Jun 21, 2011)

tuckerward said:


> I'm new to it also but i am only 18 but i say go for it man age is just a number dont let people tell you not to start something because your "too old" Theres arborist that climb daily that are 50 and 60 yrs old the oldest ive ever heard of the guy was like 84 and climbed daily so go for it man.


 
It would be cool to work that long around trees..........


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## beastmaster (Jun 21, 2011)

Age only matters in your head. I'm 53 and been climbing my whole life.(or so it seems) If that is what you really what to do go for it,
but if your thinking of it as a way to make a few bucks because constructions slow, you should rethink it. This business isn't thriving 
in this economy. My wife is always on me to find a real job. There are some really good and experience climbers who are looking to get out of this profession for lack of work.
I won't even go on about age discrimination. All that being said, my Dad's 76 and he still sometimes get back up in the trees to do a
little climbing. Good luck, but think it out. Beastmaster


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2011)

Although I feel I am reading your diary, Welcome aboard.
Jeff


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## tuckerward (Jun 21, 2011)

Gregory Nash said:


> Thank you ! That means a lot to me ! Do you go to school for arboriculture ?


 
No problem man but no i dont go to school for it i just want to do it as a hobby you know how they say if you do something you love as a job its no longer a hobby anymore so i dont want that to happen


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## Chud (Jun 21, 2011)

The Biltmore hosts Arbormaster training once a year. It is spendy, but a lot can be learned in a few days.


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## mikegar (Jun 21, 2011)

Gregory Nash said:


> My passion for Trees started at an early age ,my grandmother and mother would walk around here and point out and name Trees to me ..... Grandfather built Log homes ... Construction I worked with wood ...... Anything I can do with wood ............


 Well if the passion is there then i say go for it and good luck. like most on here are saying age is what you make of it. work as though your 20 again. welcome.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2011)

mikegar said:


> Well if the passion is there then i say go for it and good luck. like most on here are saying age is what you make of it. work as though your 20 again. welcome.


 
Yup! And you won't need Viagra!
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## beastmaster (Jun 21, 2011)

You know with a ISA cert. and a two year degree, theres lots of cool jobs that are available in arborculture. As in lots of professions 
the less you do, the more money you make. This hold true in the tree world as well. Production manager, tree counter, superviser, line clearance spotter(or what ever they call them selfs). Seek and you should find. Beastmaster


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2011)

Well said, Beast!
Jeff


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## woodmiser (Jun 24, 2011)

*At My Old Age*

Hi All,

I'm 42, was laid off in 2008 and haven't had a decent job since (mostly no job). I am thinking about a tree service as well, but... While I am jobless though, I can do some useful tree cutting around the house.

My Arborism is because I am surrounded by a 100 or so pine trees with various states of beetle infestation. I have cleared those nearest the house, but these things are really tall and much more work is necessary.

I have learned to cable and winch these trees down with good precision. By this fall, I will be up to the side where I will have to climb and drop parts. I bought some gaffs on ebay, and now I need a belt or harness. What are my best choices on an unemployed budget? Are the linesman belts OK?

BTW, I grew up in Asheville, miss it, but it has become a little west coast oasis with costs so high that I can't afford to move back!
Cheers!


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## Zale (Jun 24, 2011)

Woodmiser- stay on the ground. Thats the best advice I can give you.


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## Jeffsaw (Jun 24, 2011)

Like the other guys have said, don't worry about your age. If you want a change its important to do something you like to do. At 50 I started a tree service business because I didn't want to take overtime shifts at my regular job. I'd had a lot of experience with treework and chainsaw work from previous jobs and it was great to get back to it. My business is in the fourth year now (winter is quite slow here) and have never had so much job satisfaction. I can't afford to quit my other employment but those are the breaks.
Good luck with your decision.


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## Chud (Jun 24, 2011)

lol, I had to seek help for arborism


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 24, 2011)

woodmiser said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm 42, was laid off in 2008 and haven't had a decent job since (mostly no job). I am thinking about a tree service as well, but... While I am jobless though, I can do some useful tree cutting around the house.
> 
> ...


 
Something smells funny here!!!
Jeff :confused2:


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## beastmaster (Jun 25, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Something smells funny here!!!
> Jeff :confused2:


 :agree2::notrolls2:


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## woodmiser (Jun 25, 2011)

*Funny Smell*

So,

Funny smell: What do you mean? Do you doubt my story? Which part?

Or is it because of my west coast comment? A friend visiting San Fransisco saw a billboard that advertised Asheville NC. There is a connection!


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## woodmiser (Jun 25, 2011)

*Calling Troll*



beastmaster said:


> :agree2::notrolls2:


 
OK,

I can see how my lament about what has happened to my home town could be considered an indictment of anyone living on the west coast. That was not my intent, was just illuminating a negative sub-culture that exists and what it has done to Asheville.

This was inappropiate, and if I offended anyone I apologize. Most of my original post was about arborism and to highlight only the last sentence to justify calling me a troll is just not fair.

I was asking for advice in selecting a belt for climbing trees. There seems to be a lot of linesman belts on ebay, and I would like to know how to select something that will do the job. I can't afford the most trendy equipment, but I do have a need to get the job done. What characteristics do I look for? What do I avoid? 

A side note: I have dropped about 20 pines so far this year, and left them cut up on the ground so it was easier to saw the next group. I noticed that it only took about 3 weeks before I began to hear the chomping of termites. 

-Thanks


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 25, 2011)

You want a 'saddle', not a belt.
Arborism? Is that a condition?
Jeff


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## woodmiser (Jun 25, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> You want a 'saddle', not a belt.
> Arborism? Is that a condition?
> Jeff


 
Thanks! I will focus on that. BTW, is this also suitable for rock climbing? What is the difference between the arborist gear and rock climbing gear?

I am into arborism because I recognize the value of some trees and the threat of others. Like I am saving and moving the little cedars I find to become a hedge. I am killing all the gum trees I can along with the pines. 

The scariest tree I have felled yet was a massive 70'+ gum that was growing less than 2' from my elderly neighbors house. It was dumping gumballs so deep on her porch that she couldn't open her back door. It was growing in between the AC and the porch, and I was afraid it would take out one or the other. Was at it all day to cut it up. Then split it into firewood over the next week (by maul). Took some of the wood camping and noticed it had an interesting aroma when burned.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 25, 2011)

woodmiser said:


> Thanks! I will focus on that.
> 
> I am into arborism.


 
Again I ask you, what is the definition of 'arborism?'
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## chad556 (Jun 25, 2011)

woodmiser said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm 42, was laid off in 2008 and haven't had a decent job since (mostly no job). I am thinking about a tree service as well, but... While I am jobless though, I can do some useful tree cutting around the house.
> 
> ...


 
For and unemployed budget: Get one of these Buckingham Economy Saddles It won't be comfy or ergonomic but it will get the job done and keep you safe. Unless you are climbing a utility pole a linemans belt wont do and a rock climbing harness wouldnt work because it has no side D-ring attachment points for your saftey lanyard.

Speaking of lanyards, either get two, or even better, get one and also get a climbing line so you will have a quick escape if anything serious happens in the tree. When running your saw up in the tree you always want to have two separate ropes securing you to the tree, that way if you accidently lose control of your saw and cut one you will still have a good chance of living another 42 years :msp_tongue:

Add some PPE, common sense, and some form of instruction and you will do ok. It wont be cheap to get all gear. Assuming you have the saws, basic PPE and climbing spurs i would say another 300 would get you safely outfitted with a saddle and some ropes and connectors . You can cut corners but you would be significantly decreasing your chances of survival. I would highly recommend going with gear that is made for treework, rock climbing gear would probably work but if it were me I would invest an extra $20 for the good stuff (you can always sell it again on ebay).

Also I think you mean "interest in arboriculture", not arborism lol


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## Chud (Jun 25, 2011)

woodmiser said:


> Thanks! I will focus on that. BTW, is this also suitable for rock climbing? What is the difference between the arborist gear and rock climbing gear?
> 
> I am into arborism because I recognize the value of some trees and the threat of others. Like I am saving and moving the little cedars I find to become a hedge. I am killing all the gum trees I can along with the pines.
> 
> The scariest tree I have felled yet was a massive 70'+ gum that was growing less than 2' from my elderly neighbors house. It was dumping gumballs so deep on her porch that she couldn't open her back door. It was growing in between the AC and the porch, and I was afraid it would take out one or the other. Was at it all day to cut it up. Then split it into firewood over the next week (by maul). Took some of the wood camping and noticed it had an interesting aroma when burned.



was yer saw dull and yer maul sharp?


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## woodmiser (Jun 25, 2011)

*Mauling Wood*



Chud said:


> was yer saw dull and yer maul sharp?



The saw was just too much time for a meager split. Some pieces would split with one wack. Talked a buddy into helping me. We took turns backing up each other, sinking the maul, then driving it with a 10lb sledge. Worked pretty good. Sometimes though all we could do is thump the wood, then I used a wedge with the sledge to start the split. That gum tree was some tough stringy stuff!


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## Zale (Jun 27, 2011)

Woodmiser- If you decide to climb, make sure your friend is there with you in case he has to call 911 should anything happen.


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## beastmaster (Jun 28, 2011)

Woodmiser, if your not," Trolling" I am sorry, but your story is so classic of what is happening to this industry it seems contrived. It is not so much age but the motivation why so many,"tree Lovers", all of a sudden want to change professions. If things were well with in your own chosen line of work you wouldn't want to come to our "chosen line of work, further weakening an already stressed industy.
Its nothen personal but if all of a sudden you couldn't get a job doing what you were doing because all the tree people were moving to 
your occupation, lowing the skill level, lowing the pay scale, etc. you might be a little touchy your self. Best of luck to you. Beastmaster ( I'm still not 100% convinced.)


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## woodmiser (Jun 28, 2011)

*Dying Alone*



Zale said:


> Woodmiser- If you decide to climb, make sure your friend is there with you in case he has to call 911 should anything happen.


 
LOL! Yes, I do plan to have somebody around. You may find it difficult to believe, but I am really not too much of a idiot. I am painfully cautious about things I am new at. I have a buddy down the street who generally works for beer, so as long as I ration his intake so he can still dial the phone, I have a safety plan of sorts  

Just scored a weaver saddle on ebay, now I need to get some lines and lanyard. Also need to order that tree companion book. I should be able to learn enough by this fall to climb and bomb.

We dropped 5 pines today, then we came inside and did some JD shots and cooled off. It was 101 degrees today! (I don't drink until after the saw stops...)

Cheers!


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## woodmiser (Jun 28, 2011)

*Competition*



beastmaster said:


> Woodmiser, if your not," Trolling" I am sorry, but your story is so classic of what is happening to this industry it seems contrived. It is not so much age but the motivation why so many,"tree Lovers", all of a sudden want to change professions. If things were well with in your own chosen line of work you wouldn't want to come to our "chosen line of work, further weakening an already stressed industy.
> Its nothen personal but if all of a sudden you couldn't get a job doing what you were doing because all the tree people were moving to
> your occupation, lowing the skill level, lowing the pay scale, etc. you might be a little touchy your self. Best of luck to you. Beastmaster



Don't worry, I am NOT going to be an professional arborist. I am only involved now because I need to do something useful with my free time to improve my property. I also want to feel safer without these tall pines full of bugs just waiting for one good storm to crash through my house!

I have a lot more respect for you pros than you know. I have watched guys take down trees before and always wondered what drives men like that. I'm a bit chicken when it comes to risk, but when the pressure mounts and there is no other way to get it done, I will try it.

Cheers!


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## rarefish383 (Jun 30, 2011)

OK, to the OP, Gregory Nash. My Dad climbed well into his 60's, even though he owned the co and had steady work year round. He said he did it, "just to stay in shape", and could run up a dang tree like a squirl. When he died at 81 with prostrate cancer he still had biceps the size of grapefruits. I'm 55 and got out of the work as a primary source of income years ago. My body was getting destroyed. I took down a little Maple a couple weeks ago for a friend, and using hooks is murder on my left knee. It hurts to jab them in, and when I pull the left one out, I can feel my knee separating. My body didn't take the pounding the same as my Dad's did.
Most of the climbers I know are in their late fifties and sixties. You're still plenty young to do the work, but the learning years are probably the most demanding. 

To woodmiser, I had to go back and check what you said because I was getting confused. In your first post you said you were "thinking about a tree business", then in one of your last posts you said "you were just clearing around your house for something to do till work comes back." What I think all of these good folks are trying to say, in a very polite way is: if you want to do this for a few bucks to get by on, you are one of the most dangerous and unwanted people in arborculture. You said you are getting real good at winching trees over. Winching trees over can be one of the most deadly ways to fell a tree for an ammature. If you put an unjudgably mechanical advantage on the trunk, make your front notch, the second your bar touches the back of the tree it can explode in a barber chair and litterally rip your body in half. If you haven't put years in the work how can you judge all of the different woods and their reaction to stress? In Md you have to have a 4 year degree to get a license. If you don't have years around the business how do you know how to bid a job. You're gonna lowball a job so far just to get it, that you're hurting people in the business because they love it. Then it's inevatable that you're gonna have an accident, because every body knows that "ACCIDENTS JUST HAPPEN". Then the homeowners insurance is gonna have to pay for the damage, because you don't have insurance, because you don't have the knowledge to get licensed, so you can get insurance. Driving everyone elses insurance rates up. This subject, and the way you have been stating your point, drives me and most real tree guys nuts. That's why they called you a troll. If they are right, maybe I fed you enough to make you happy. 

If I'm wrong, sorry for being rude, Joe.


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## woodmiser (Jul 1, 2011)

rarefish383 said:


> OK, to the OP, Gregory Nash. My Dad climbed well into his 60's, even though he owned the co and had steady work year round. He said he did it, "just to stay in shape", and could run up a dang tree like a squirl. When he died at 81 with prostrate cancer he still had biceps the size of grapefruits. I'm 55 and got out of the work as a primary source of income years ago. My body was getting destroyed. I took down a little Maple a couple weeks ago for a friend, and using hooks is murder on my left knee. It hurts to jab them in, and when I pull the left one out, I can feel my knee separating. My body didn't take the pounding the same as my Dad's did.
> Most of the climbers I know are in their late fifties and sixties. You're still plenty young to do the work, but the learning years are probably the most demanding.
> 
> To woodmiser, I had to go back and check what you said because I was getting confused. In your first post you said you were "thinking about a tree business", then in one of your last posts you said "you were just clearing around your house for something to do till work comes back." What I think all of these good folks are trying to say, in a very polite way is: if you want to do this for a few bucks to get by on, you are one of the most dangerous and unwanted people in arborculture. You said you are getting real good at winching trees over. Winching trees over can be one of the most deadly ways to fell a tree for an ammature. If you put an unjudgably mechanical advantage on the trunk, make your front notch, the second your bar touches the back of the tree it can explode in a barber chair and litterally rip your body in half. If you haven't put years in the work how can you judge all of the different woods and their reaction to stress? In Md you have to have a 4 year degree to get a license. If you don't have years around the business how do you know how to bid a job. You're gonna lowball a job so far just to get it, that you're hurting people in the business because they love it. Then it's inevatable that you're gonna have an accident, because every body knows that "ACCIDENTS JUST HAPPEN". Then the homeowners insurance is gonna have to pay for the damage, because you don't have insurance, because you don't have the knowledge to get licensed, so you can get insurance. Driving everyone elses insurance rates up. This subject, and the way you have been stating your point, drives me and most real tree guys nuts. That's why they called you a troll. If they are right, maybe I fed you enough to make you happy.
> ...



Geez,
So many of are trying to discourage me because you think that I am somehow going to take business away from you. I live at least several hours or days travel from anyone I've seen here. How arrogant you are to assume that you are entitled to all work, even if it is just something you hear about. You should be realizing that the greatest threat to your income is a truckload of illegals cruising through neighborhoods looking for cash jobs. Not me. I haven't made a dime.

I did say I THOUGHT about doing work like this and I said "BUT..." . I don't want to do this arborist work! The work I am doing is to make my home safer. I have probably lost my career, and I can't afford to pay someone else to do this. I am a self-sufficient person as much as I can be. If I do nothing, that is what I expect to receive. I do take pride in my work, so I try hard to do a great job.

If I were trying to be the hack that many of you think I am, then why have I taken the time to get on this site and contact members in an attempt to learn how to do things the RIGHT way? Sure, it is easier to label me troll so you have an excuse to shut out a newbie. But how does that foster respect and gratitude for the experienced arborist? So far I have gotten more responses trying to justify why I CAN'T do this work. Well, I have to do this. I would prefer to learn something useful.


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## beastmaster (Jul 1, 2011)

I have to admit maybe we are a little touchy. And there are people who use this board for their own entertainment causing chaos by provoking everyone. You can get a lot of good advice, some that could save your life. Don't hesitate to ask questions, I am one of the biggest blowhards on this board. I love answering questions and giving advice. You did seem to perfect of a stereotype. Have thick skin and learn what you can. Were not haters, for the most part. Beastmaster


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## rarefish383 (Jul 1, 2011)

Woodmiser, like I said, if your sincere, sorry for being rude. All I have to judge you by is your statements. You said "Start a Business". You said "Good at winching trees over". Those 2 statements are contradicting. A treeman doesn't hook a cable or chain on a tree and pull it over, he climbs it and takes it down. Do we use winches, of course we do. In most states you need a 4 year degree, and/or a period of time in the industry (8 years), to take the Tree Expert Exam. You have to pass that to get your license and insurance. You have to be licensed and insured to legally bid and perform work. If you haven't done that you are "ILLEGAL", what do I care if your Anglo or Mexican, your still illegal, and I do not like illegals.

Am I touchy on this issue, yes.
Am I arrogant on this issue, no. I'm the 4th generation in my family that has been licensed and insured. I didn't go the the Universty of MD just for the beer and women.
Am I worried about you taking work and money from me, no. I'm retired!!! I spend most of my time collecting pre war hunting rifles and Mopar Muscle cars from the 60's and 70's.

Yes, this is a forum for beginners. But as I said, I can only judge you by your statements, and as you can see you ruffled a few feathers by saying you were out of work in one industry and were thinking of just starting a tree business. There's a little more to it than just starting. Rant over, Joe.


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## woodmiser (Jul 1, 2011)

*Winching Trees*

Ok, we all had a chance to vent.

Since there are some caveats to winching over trees, how about I tell you more about what I am doing and see what you all think.

As I have said, the majority of the trees I'm felling are pines (where there is room). These are probably 15" or so diameter. I hook a chain around the tree 15-20' up with a ladder. Then I attach a 1/4" cable to the chain, which in turn goes to a cumalong and then to another chain around a stump or tree to anchor it. I choose the correct angle I need for each tree and move everything as needed.

I take up the slack in the cable, then notch the tree in the direction I want it to fall. Then I go over and tighten the cable with the cumalong until I see the tree starting to move in the felling direction. Then I return to the tree and start sawing the back. If the tree is falling off course I saw left or right more to steer the tree as it falls. Then I go along the trunk limbing, and come back down sawing up into movable pieces. Then I go get some icewater and let me and the saw cool off.

Problems?


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## VA-Sawyer (Jul 1, 2011)

rarefish,

I think if you check, you will actually find that most of the states don't have any cert requirements for tree companies. I know that a number of New England states do, and so does California. Here in NC there isn't even a tree license available. It was the same in VA. 

woodmiser,

Problems ?

Yes, get a throw line so you can get your pull points higher up. They should be closer to 2/3 of the way up the tree, and if the trees are 15" at base, I don't think you are getting high enough.

Take more care in aiming the notch. Steering with the back cut is iffy at best.

Rick


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## Zale (Jul 1, 2011)

Woodmiser- I do not consider you a threat for taking money out of my pocket. I do think you are a threat to yourself. You will get just enough information and equipment to cause serious damage to yourself or property. If you want to learn, go find a local company and start as a groundsman. Learning this profession requires hands on training in the field. Not on a computer chat room!


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## woodmiser (Jul 1, 2011)

Zale said:


> Woodmiser- I do not consider you a threat for taking money out of my pocket. I do think you are a threat to yourself. You will get just enough information and equipment to cause serious damage to yourself or property. If you want to learn, go find a local company and start as a groundsman. Learning this profession requires hands on training in the field. Not on a computer chat room!



So then what is the point of this website? Is it so the experienced arborist can discourage those interested in learning? So I can't safely take down a tree without a club member around? Doesn't that seem ridiculous to you? I do respect experience, but suppressing a newbie is just to feed your own ego. Do you not feel anything positive when helping someone else? Ever try it?

I've felled at least 50 trees around my house without incident. I think through every drop. I have to plan each one as a sequence so it can fall correctly and/or not snag a favorable tree. Sure it is only few to you, and the big challenge is coming when I need to take some trees down in pieces that are close to my house. But I am trying to learn enough to do it right without damage.

As I've said before, I am broke, middle aged and my career seems over. My tree problem just gets worse. Instead of sitting on my butt, I am trying to at least improve one facet in my life.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 1, 2011)

woodmiser said:


> So then what is the point of this website?
> 
> As I've said before, I am broke, middle aged and my career seems over.


 

So you came here? God, I need a break!!!!!
Jeff


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## woodmiser (Jul 2, 2011)

*Helpful Info*



VA-Sawyer said:


> rarefish,
> 
> I think if you check, you will actually find that most of the states don't have any cert requirements for tree companies. I know that a number of New England states do, and so does California. Here in NC there isn't even a tree license available. It was the same in VA.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks! I will keep this in mind.


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## treemandan (Jul 2, 2011)

You can do what you like whenever you like though I think its sad when guys just go get certified and the next thing you know they start a company but have no experiance.


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## tree MDS (Jul 2, 2011)

treemandan said:


> You can do what you like whenever you like though I think its sad when guys just go get certified and the next thing you know they start a company but have no experiance.


 
Treework always seems to attract all the washed-ups and dreamers.... been that way as long as I been around it. I guess they figure it beats flippin' burgers, or something.


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## woodmiser (Jul 2, 2011)

*Old Newbie Setup Info*

To OLD Newbies:

I would like to add a few things to this thread that I have found from my OJT.

Cables: I use 1/4" steel cables from harbor freight. Made up 3 sets 50' each.

Terminations: I use a eyelet/thimble at each cable end. Do not use the stainless clamps though. The stainless is a weaker material, and will often strip the threads before it is tight. I went to northern tool and got the galvanized set for 1/4" cable. YOU MUST USE 3 CLAMPS for every eyelet or the cable will slip. Bummer is that their eyelets are a bit small, and most things won't hook directly through them. Also, be sure to tighten all the nuts before you use them (check at least every day) because when you tension the cable the clamps work loose. I use the flat part of my blue channel lock pliers in between the 2 threads of the "U" to brace it, then tighten with a 1/2" wrench. 

Chains: I use 3/8" chains, a 4' piece for the tree, and a 10' piece for anchoring to ground level (stump or another tree). Sometimes it would be nice to have a longer chain for the anchor.

Quick links: I have a bunch of these, 3/8". I had to bump the lower part of the threads on these with a grinder though to skinny them up enough to go through the chain links (My chain has a vinyl coating). They are rated for 2200lbs. I use them to hook everything together. Buy extra!

Winch: I use a 8,000 lb come along type from harbor freight. It only travels about 5' though, so you have to have other ways of taking up the initial slack so you can save the winch travel for pulling the tree. Look for sales and 20% coupons! Usually you can score a free flashlight in the ad too!

Every spot is different, and I always need more adjustment to the cable length than I have. I would also recommend making up several short cables of about 5' so you can get the total length right before you start to winch. The chain is great for some of this adjustment, but it is heavy. I did make up a multi-tap widowmaker cable that has taps every 5', but I wouldn't recommend it. 

Also, try to keep the winch closest to the anchor end, because as you tighten it will rise into the air. For the long runs I have placed it closer to the felling tree so save some steps, but it gets harder to winch the higher it goes!

As I said earlier, once my cable is up the tree, and the slack is taken up, I notch the tree in the felling direction. Then I go over and tighten the winch, maybe bowing the tree over a little. Then I return to the tree and cut on the backside about 2-3" above the front notch. I don't go all the way through though, when I see the tree starting to go over I judge its course and deepen the back cut left to make the tree turn right, deepen right to make the tree turn left. 

Once the tree is down make sure you know where those cable and chains are when you are cutting! Also, it gets tough to walk and saw with lots of trees down in an area. At least clear out the limbs before it get too deep.

Well, this is what I have found out so far, hope it helps someone. Maybe others will add something constructive to this thread.
-Woodmiser


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## VA-Sawyer (Jul 2, 2011)

Unlike many others on here, I really don't care if you kill yourself, but spreading unsafe work methods to others is just bad form. So much of what you wrote in your post above is so unsafe as to be considered suicide. Just like the guy that drives home drunk time after time, you are unable to tell the difference between safe and just lucky (so far).

REAL tree workers don't use chains and cables. They use rope that is made for tree work.
Rope has a known amount of stretch to keep peak shock loads under control. It is also very strong. My 1/2 inch Stable-Braid has a max tensile 5x more than the chain you are using.

REAL tree workers don't waste time with come-alongs very often. They use 5:1 MA setups with progress capture. Light weight and fast !

REAL tree workers know better than to try steering a falling tree with the back cut. As soon as the tree is moving, they are moving too, along the planned escape route, because they know how dumb it is to be close to the stump when the tree hits the ground. 

I was a flight instructor for 20 years. You shouldn't try learning to fly on your own and tree work is the same way for the same reasons. You can't learn much if your mistake killed you !

You asked what this site was for. I'll tell you. NOT to teach the basics if tree climbing, but to help those that have been properly taught the basics how to improve their skills.

One last thing for you to think about.... you claim all this skill felling trees. There are about 10 different cuts we use on a regular basis to control how the wood pivots and falls. How many of those methods are you willing to bet your life on ? At least when standing on the ground, you have the option of trying to get out of the way when things go wrong. That doesn't work so well in the tree.

Rick


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## Zale (Jul 5, 2011)

woodmiser said:


> So then what is the point of this website? Is it so the experienced arborist can discourage those interested in learning? So I can't safely take down a tree without a club member around? Doesn't that seem ridiculous to you? I do respect experience, but suppressing a newbie is just to feed your own ego. Do you not feel anything positive when helping someone else? Ever try it?
> 
> I've felled at least 50 trees around my house without incident. I think through every drop. I have to plan each one as a sequence so it can fall correctly and/or not snag a favorable tree. Sure it is only few to you, and the big challenge is coming when I need to take some trees down in pieces that are close to my house. But I am trying to learn enough to do it right without damage.
> 
> As I've said before, I am broke, middle aged and my career seems over. My tree problem just gets worse. Instead of sitting on my butt, I am trying to at least improve one facet in my life.


 
You don't realize it but I am trying to be helpful. If you are broke and have no job, can you afford unexpected medical expenses if you injure yourself? Again, look around your area and see if companies are hiring groundsman.


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## Pelorus (Jul 6, 2011)

Got immersed in reading through this thread, and it had the same voyeuristic appeal as watching a train wreck. 

Post 45 did perk me up: "I think its sad when guys just go get certified and the next thing you know they start a company but have no experiance". 

I agree.

The sad fact is that to become "successful" in this industry one doesn't need to be a good climber, or certified, or even ethical.
You just need to be a good salesman. And spend lots on advertising to promote your business. Appearance is everything.
You can always hire a proficient climber even on a part-time, occaisional basis.

I regard myself as a veteran in this industry (started in 1987). I've paid my dues in terms of sweat, blood, broken bones, scars, heartache, and disapointment. And there have been exhilarating highs to offset the lows, but I'm getting beaten down, and tired.
I've been a former NAA/ISA member, and was ISA certified for 9 years.

For those of you who have been been around for a long time, ask yourselves how often a client want to see proof of your certification, or a certificate of insurance, worker's comp, etc? They might inquire "If" you have insurance, but rarely demand to see a copy of it.

The "average" homeowner usually wants to know two things: "How much will it cost?" and "How soon can you do the work?" 
I now run into customers who, when the work is completed, absolutely refuse point blank to pay the tax on the invoice. Even though it was on the quotation. They insist on paying cash. Up here in Ontario, the sales tax (HST) is 13%. Am I supposed to "eat" that 13% when I deposit that cash into my business account? Do I not declare the work as income? How long can this mess continue before it is AUDIT TIME.

And then we wonder why Tom, ####, and Harry are now doing tree work rather than just mowing lawns. I encouraged my son to NOT follow in my footsteps.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 6, 2011)

Pelorus said:


> For those of you who have been been around for a long time, ask yourselves how often a client want to see proof of your certification, or a certificate of insurance, worker's comp, etc?


 
Every job we do! But we don't do residential because their is no future or long term market if you want a big company.
Jeff


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## pbtree (Jul 12, 2011)

mikegar said:


> Well if the passion is there then i say go for it and good luck. like most on here are saying age is what you make of it. work as though your 20 again. welcome.


 
I second that....


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## Bermie (Jul 29, 2011)

I started tree work full time at 37...BUT with a full background of horticulture and landscaping and I was fit. I love it!

You better be a fit 45 or be prepared to experience some pain on the way to getting fit!

From what I've read on this forum and others, good tree companies are crying for good reliable, hardworking, honest, non dope smoking beer guzzling texting facebooking addicted ground workers. 

If you can fit that bill to start with you'd get a way better idea if tree work is where you want to move to. You learn how to keep a site clear for a climber, service saws, run ropes and then later maybe try a bit of climbing.
Read books, learn to ID trees and shrubs and pests and disease...give it a try!


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 29, 2011)

Bermie said:


> I started tree work full time at 37..give it a try!




I started at 17,,


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## ropensaddle (Jul 29, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Yup! And you won't need Viagra!
> Jeff :msp_smile:


 
Ahem Ahem and you know this how?


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Ahem Ahem and you know this how?


 
Hi Rope,
Ha ha! 
No, never tried it.
Gonna go to a Party tomorrow that hat has a '70's theme,
I will post pic;s.
Jeff


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## Bermie (Aug 1, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I started at 17,,


 
Are you still climbing? I am, and its keeping me FIT at &$ years of age.

One could say (at a stretch) I started the theory side of tree work at 20...


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## Grace Tree (Aug 1, 2011)

Bermie said:


> Are you still climbing? I am, and its keeping me FIT at &$ years of age.
> 
> One could say (at a stretch) I started the theory side of tree work at 20...


 
Nice to see you back on AS


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## tomtrees58 (Aug 1, 2011)

you got to love ever one who thinks we make the big bucks right a way 38 years climbing now and still climbing looking for that big job any way its takes a lone time to be a pro but some times it come by you i have a 50 k job coming up in sept


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## Bermie (Aug 1, 2011)

Small Wood said:


> Nice to see you back on AS


 
Yeah, thought I'd stop in for a look see, some good threads going, I'll pop by from time to time!


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## ropensaddle (Aug 2, 2011)

Bermie said:


> Yeah, thought I'd stop in for a look see, some good threads going, I'll pop by from time to time!


 
Hi bermie dont be stranger


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## 046 (Aug 2, 2011)

to other newbies .... DON'T FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS BELOW posted by woodmiser. 
someone is going to get killed... 

there's been several of these type threads lately with lots of flames. 
yes you can ask questions on AS but know who to take advice from. 

the best advice is to hook up with a local pro ... offer to drag brush. 
then watch how they operate. depending on their insurance, owner may or may not allow you on job site. but it costs you nothing to ask ... if nothing else watch from a distance. 

most will help if you simply ask... 

don't buy any more gear (except below) until you figure out how/why pro's do what they do. 

do buy Jeff Jepson's Tree Climbers Companion and about 15ft of 6mm high grade rope from your local rock climbing store. 

then practice the knots listed in Jepson's little book. don't worry not very many knots are mentioned. don't stop until you can tie basic knots blind folded. 

when you do finally get your gear... go low and slow
object is not to get your self killed!




woodmiser said:


> To OLD Newbies:
> 
> I would like to add a few things to this thread that I have found from my OJT.
> 
> ...


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## ropensaddle (Aug 2, 2011)

046 said:


> to other newbies .... DON'T FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS BELOW posted by woodmiser.
> someone is going to get killed...
> 
> there's been several of these type threads lately with lots of flames.
> ...


 
Hell no.

I use 5/8 steel cable usa with twenty ton pto winch setup on my bucket truck. Why would I use anything else


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## ripplerider (Aug 3, 2011)

Personally I dont like cable for pulling trees- unless it's running to the winch on a bucket truck. Rope is much more forgiving. To the poster who busted on him for steering trees with his backcut- what planet are you from? This is a standard practice thatcan work wonders. Yeah you need to get away from the stump, but get it started the right way before you run. You mentioned trout fishing around Murphy and Andrews. I live in Blairsville, the first town south of Murphy once you get into Ga. P.M. me for some hands on pointers. I just bought a N.C. fishing license so maybe we can trade out fishing holes for knowledge. I run the Nantahala River regularly so I'm up that way a lot.


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