# tree workers inured by rope entering chipper



## imagineero

I heard on the phone from a buddy of mine who runs a good size crew today that he had two workers injured on the job. I wasn't on the phone long enough to get the complete scoop, but from the sounds of it the crew was working in tight quarters with no room to stack. They were chipping as they went, with the chipper very close to the tree. 

Through some sort of error, a branch got fed in that had a rope dragged in behind it. One of the guys at the chipper tried reversing the feed wheels, but no good - once the drum had a hold of that rope it was going through. Because the rope was going through other branches, one got flung up and hit a worker in the head, causing minor injuries. A second guy tried wrestling the rope, wrapped it around himself and ended up with pretty bad rope burn and a couple broken fingers. He'll be off work for a couple months. This all happened in the blink of an eye.

I'll get the full story next time I meet up with him, but this could make a good toolbox talk for other crews out there. Once a rope enters a chipper, it's going through no matter what you do, and taking whatever is attached to the rope with it. There's no going back on this one, the only thing you can do is cut the rope if you're quick. Especially of danger in close quarters, when you've got the chipper right under the tree and possibly only one or two groundies. If the tail of the climbers rope ends up in there, there's a good chance he'll be pulled out of the tree. 

Shaun


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## bootboy

Sounds like it could have been much, much worse. Glad the injuries were relatively minor, considering how easy it is to lose a fight with a chipper.

Be safe out there!


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## treeclimber101

bootboy said:


> Sounds like it could have been much, much worse. Glad the injuries were relatively minor, considering how easy it is to lose a fight with a chipper.
> 
> Be safe out there!



They always win , I have never seen a chipper lose


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## imagineero

here ya go 

Chipper Strike! - YouTube

Shaun


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## imagineero

I got the full story today. 

What actually happened was the guys were working in close quarters, chipping under the tree. They had a tag line that was used to pull a head over. Lots of branches everywhere, guys chipping and other guys running the ropes. Rope went into the chipper with a branch, while one guy was still trying to untie the rope from the pullover. In a flash, the whole rope was sucked into the chipper before anyone even realised what had happened. 

The guy trying to untie the rope got slammed in the head with the branch he was trying to untie, smashed his safety glasses into his face. Hard hat probably saved his life. 

Second guy was standing in the bight and got whipped by the line, pretty bad rope burns all over, and got tangled up in it trying to free himself, breaking a couple fingers. 

As already noted, could have been a LOT worse. 

This would make a good toolbox talk for us all, I talked my guys through it. The image of getting dragged into the chipper at lightning speed is one that most guys haven't considered, and one that sticks in your head. Would it pull you through, or rip your arm off first? If it ripped your arm off, would your shoulder already be in the feed rollers?

Shaun


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## StrataTree

Just did some trainning...Had NO IDEA that 30 people go through the chipper every year! Add up the years and it starts gettin real scary real fast...hundreds of folks not goin home...MAD respect for that beast! Was told in trainning that positioning the chipper to close to work area/drop zone is a recurring contributer to many chipper accidents. I will not be whining about dragging brush an extra 15-20 feet anymore! Stay safe out there...
I had a big plastic and aluminum shovel get grabbed by the feed wheels and in 1-2 seconds it was gone. If a coworker isn't within 3 ft. Of chipper you have about no chance. If a coworker is close you still have about no chance.


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## CalTreeEquip

Same thing happened to a local guy here in Cal. Got tangled in the rope, picked him up and slammed his head into the machine. DOA.


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## PhilMcWoody

imagineero said:


> I got the full story today.
> 
> What actually happened was the guys were working in close quarters, chipping under the tree. They had a tag line that was used to pull a head over. Lots of branches everywhere, guys chipping and other guys running the ropes. Rope went into the chipper with a branch, while one guy was still trying to untie the rope from the pullover. In a flash, the whole rope was sucked into the chipper before anyone even realised what had happened.
> 
> The guy trying to untie the rope got slammed in the head with the branch he was trying to untie, smashed his safety glasses into his face. Hard hat probably saved his life.
> 
> Second guy was standing in the bight and got whipped by the line, pretty bad rope burns all over, and got tangled up in it trying to free himself, breaking a couple fingers.
> 
> As already noted, could have been a LOT worse.
> 
> This would make a good toolbox talk for us all, I talked my guys through it. The image of getting dragged into the chipper at lightning speed is one that most guys haven't considered, and one that sticks in your head. Would it pull you through, or rip your arm off first? If it ripped your arm off, would your shoulder already be in the feed rollers?
> 
> Shaun



I guess I heard too many chipper stories on both sides of the atlantic in my 50 years.

I walked past a Vermeer the other day, and every time I do I think pretty vividly of the stories I've heard of chipper horrors. Just being anywhere near one that's operating is enough to be extremely wary. Although most crews I see try to keep residents in the hood well away.

I gotta remember to tell my kids in case they ever get involved in tree work — especially since one of them does outside work for now — just how crazy it can be. The rope entangling/dragging people in is a wrinkle even I hadn't thought much about.


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## Oldknottired

Grape vines into a drum chipper. Same play, different actor.


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## ReggieT

CalTreeEquip said:


> Same thing happened to a local guy here in Cal. Got tangled in the rope, picked him up and slammed his head into the machine. DOA.



Hmm...are there no KILL SWITCHES" on Chippers?????:after_boom:


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## CalTreeEquip

Yes, on some but it happens so fast one can't react.


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## Dia67na

him up and slammed his head into the machine.


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## eert

all chippers that people should be using have kill switches on each side right next to the feeder, just slap that *big fat yellow button* (yellow on bandits, red on Vermeers)as fast as you can, would need super reaction timing, if you have chainsaw running maybe cut the rope, considering the kill switch will be about 2 inches frmo where your hand is while feeding if standing in the correct spot it wouldn't be impossible to hit it before all the rope goes threw, it would be quite possible to hit it in time i think.

i cant imagine what i would do if there was no kill switch, maybe go work for a real firm that cares about my safty, maybe run over and just put it out of gear (just turn of off), then smash it back in again to slam the drum to a stop. Honestly i would be in shock and probably would just die, maybe if i had chainsaw in hand running i would try to cut the rope. So reversing the feeder dosnt do anything right for the rope is tangled in the drum? Same thing with all vines, we have cats claw over here and you always cut it up in a couple meter lengths so this dosnt happen.


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## imagineero

The kill switch shuts the engine down, but the drum or disk will still be rotating for at least a minute. 200' of rope will go through the chipper in less than 1 second. If the rope was n front of you, and you knew it was going into the chipper, and you had the chainsaw at the ready, running at full speed, you still wouldn't have time to cut the rope. You wouldn't even have time to make the decision to cut the rope, the more likely scenario is that the rope would wrap around the bar and hopefully rip the saw out of your hands because f you didn't let go you'd be going with it. This is literally happening at the speed of a whip cracking.

There is no way to stop this event once the rope has entered the chipper, and there is no response possible. The kill switch, key, emergency stops, and roller stops/reversing the roller all have zero effect. For this reason, you need to be extremely vigilant about ropes near chippers, and also with winch cables,ropes and vines.

Shaun


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## isaaccarlson

The whole rope into chipper never really entered my mind either. I rarely even have a rope anywhere around when I am chipping, but thank you. You may have saved my life somewhere down the line.:msp_rolleyes:


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## ChoppyChoppy

Why do chippers not have an emergency brake that stops the drum?! Hit the Emergency stop and it kills the engines and locks the brake on the drum.


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## derwoodii

ValleyFirewood said:


> Why do chippers not have an emergency brake that stops the drum?! Hit the Emergency stop and it kills the engines and locks the brake on the drum.



dynamics of inertia typically a 500kg steel drum or disc spinning at 1500rpm wont be stopped by a friction brake system fast and if it is stopped fast the captured energy will disassemble it like a bomb.
Keep ropes away well away keep staff trained and refresh that as often as can


CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Hazard ID 8 - Injury Associated with Working Near or Operating Wood Chippers (99-145)


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## ChoppyChoppy

It would stop it faster than letting it just die down!

My friend has a dyno machine with 2000lb rollers that will do 150+mph if a car has enough power. It stops in 5-6 seconds from runnng wide open, nothing blows up.



derwoodii said:


> dynamics of inertia typically a 500kg steel drum or disc spinning at 1500rpm wont be stopped by a friction brake system fast and if it is stopped fast the captured energy will disassemble it like a bomb.
> Keep ropes away well away keep staff trained and refresh that as often as can
> 
> 
> CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Hazard ID 8 - Injury Associated with Working Near or Operating Wood Chippers (99-145)


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## imagineero

Mass and momentum... I guess the drum on a typical 18" weighs in at around 1,000lbs and is rotating at 2500~3000RPM, and is maybe 3' or more in diameter. From memory the pulley on the drum is larger than the pulley on the engine, so the drum is rotating faster than the engine speed. Assuming a 3' drum, and 3,000 RPM, that drum is rotating at about 450'/second (about 300 miles/hour). Once it gets ahold of a rope it's going through. You could put some type of emergency brake on it, but it would explode. You could use a friction brake, but it wouldn't be slowing it down in any sort of useful time frame. Your friends dyno is likely hydraulic drive, which is easier to slow down than the direct drive on chippers. There's a hydraulic drive grinder that has an emergency stop feature, but the disk is obviously a lot smaller and lighter.

Back in the real world, even if you could engineer some kind of emergency brake, and it was instant, the chances of recognising the hazard, reacting to it and hitting the switch in time are remote indeed. You might not even be anywhere near the switch at the time. You may not even see the rope go in. Having spoken to the guys on the crew the day of the incident, it happened so fast that nobody could understand what had happened. Only the one guy even realised a rope had gone through, the rest, who were all watching couldn't understand what had just happened and how the two guys were hurt. Extremely lucky that the injuries were not more serious or fatal.

The real story for me though, is that most guys aren't even aware this is a hazard. Every couple years we seem to have a fatality caused by a rope or winch line entering a chipper, which everybody responds to with comments like "why didn't they stop the rollers/hit emergency stop/whatever" and then when it's explained, everybody is totally surprised and amazed at the danger of it. Very few guys are aware what a hazard this is, and how quickly it can happen, and that there is nothing you can do to stop it once it has occurred. 

Spread the word, talk to your mates and crew members. I don't have a winch on my chipper, but I have a subcontractor with an 1890 who does. With my 250XP, ropes are not allowed remotely close to the chipper, and all crew are vigilant about it. We have a rule that lowering ropes must be untied and put aside before cutting, and then we drag and chip. When using the 1890 with a winch, we use a 3 man system. Once the first drag is in the chipper and getting fed through, the guy on the controls freewheels the winch and one guy hauls it out for the next drag. A third guy stands off to the side and keeps the cable free of the tree being chipped. The guy on the controls can stop the rollers at any time the cable becomes snagged. I think hauling cable while chipping is an extremely hazardous activity.

Shaun


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## ChoppyChoppy

Trust me, a brake would not be all that hard or overly expensive to setup on a chipper. I know how chippers work, I used to do repairs to several Veneer brand, 6-10" units.

It would not explode and would stop it in 5-8 seconds.

I'm not saying that it would have stopped this accident from not happening, but I bet it would stop many! Maybe a guy looses a hand instead of his whole arm or whole body.


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## TheJollyLogger

ValleyFirewood said:


> Trust me, a brake would not be all that hard or overly expensive to setup on a chipper. I know how chippers work, I used to do repairs to several Veneer brand, 6-10" units.
> 
> It would not explode and would stop it in 5-8 seconds.
> 
> I'm not saying that it would have stopped this accident from not happening, but I bet it would stop many! Maybe a guy looses a hand instead of his whole arm or whole body.



Nice thought, but sorry, wouldn't make a difference. I've seen a rope get sucked into a chipper, and it is over before you know it. The lesson is never ever let a rope get close to a chipper. Period.


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## ChoppyChoppy

Why do you think a brake would be ONLY something to stop a rope? 

I realize you can't just stop the drum on a dime, but stopping it much faster than it just spooling down on it's own would certainly help!

I am thinking overall at ALL injuries.

You know years ago people thought seat belts were stupid too, most of them got cut out. Now I'd bet 95% of drivers use seatbelts, and not just because it's the law.


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## TheJollyLogger

ValleyFirewood said:


> Why do you think a brake would be ONLY something to stop a rope?
> 
> I realize you can't just stop the drum on a dime, but stopping it much faster than it just spooling down on it's own would certainly help!
> 
> I am thinking overall at ALL injuries.
> 
> You know years ago people thought seat belts were stupid too, most of them got cut out. Now I'd bet 95% of drivers use seatbelts, and not just because it's the law.



I take it you don't have much chipper experience. Modern chippers are adorned with safeties to prevent a person from being drug in by a limb or branch. But if a rope is sucked into the drum or disc at over 100 mph, no safety mechanism in the world will help. It is over before you can even think to hit a safety. The only safety is to keep the ropes away from the chipper.


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## derwoodii

perhaps this exchange be a good new thread idea to work on and sort, allow others to offer up ideas and solutions share & learn.


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## ChoppyChoppy

I don't use a chipper in my line of work. I do logging and firewood processing.

The chippers I have worked on were 1980s-early 1990s models, nothing new. I did rent one last year, a Verneer and it didn't have anything other than a bar across the top to shut the feed and engine off. The drum took a good 45+ seconds to spool down still.

I'm quite certain I have said many times in this thread that I realize it would not stop a rope. Please read and understand that... for the 3rd or 4th time! 



TheJollyLogger said:


> I take it you don't have much chipper experience. Modern chippers are adorned with safeties to prevent a person from being drug in by a limb or branch. But if a rope is sucked into the drum or disc at over 100 mph, no safety mechanism in the world will help. It is over before you can even think to hit a safety. The only safety is to keep the ropes away from the chipper.


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## TheJollyLogger

Not really much to discuss, just keep all ropes away from the chipper. I hate to say it, but it really is that simple. No design that I can think of will keep a rope that is sucked into a chipper from suddenly getting wound up in the drum or disc, and in the blink of an eye whipping its length, along with whatever it might be tangled up in, right in to the chute.


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## ChoppyChoppy

Are you Texas boys all this slow in the head?

I know about the darn rope, I already said the same thing you are saying in about 5 posts now!



TheJollyLogger said:


> Not really much to discuss, just keep all ropes away from the chipper. I hate to say it, but it really is that simple. No design that I can think of will keep a rope that is sucked into a chipper from suddenly getting wound up in the drum or disc, and in the blink of an eye whipping its length, along with whatever it might be tangled up in, right in to the chute.


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## eert

imagineero said:


> The kill switch shuts the engine down, but the drum or disk will still be rotating for at least a minute. 200' of rope will go through the chipper in less than 1 second. If the rope was n front of you, and you knew it was going into the chipper, and you had the chainsaw at the ready, running at full speed, you still wouldn't have time to cut the rope. You wouldn't even have time to make the decision to cut the rope, the more likely scenario is that the rope would wrap around the bar and hopefully rip the saw out of your hands because f you didn't let go you'd be going with it. This is literally happening at the speed of a whip cracking.
> 
> There is no way to stop this event once the rope has entered the chipper, and there is no response possible. The kill switch, key, emergency stops, and roller stops/reversing the roller all have zero effect. For this reason, you need to be extremely vigilant about ropes near chippers, and also with winch cables,ropes and vines.
> 
> Shaun



Thanks for the clarification, this is very uneasy for me many years in the industry and i knew how dangerous it was to get rope in the chipper but never really thought about how very very very dangerous it really is. Can you tell me what you would do if you where the climber and then if you where the groundie, i mean i wanna be prepared.


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## imagineero

eert said:


> Thanks for the clarification, this is very uneasy for me many years in the industry and i knew how dangerous it was to get rope in the chipper but never really thought about how very very very dangerous it really is. Can you tell me what you would do if you where the climber and then if you where the groundie, i mean i wanna be prepared.



There really is nothing you can do once it has occured. The safety needs to happen before it ever gets to that point. As a climber, I'm vigilant about where the tail of my rope is. I generally try to haul it up and throw it somewhere far away from where the landing zone is so guys won't be getting it caught up in brush or cutting it. You can often throw it through a crotch somewhere, or over a fence or whatever. I've seen some guys with a pretty slick setup involving a rope bag/bucket, and a sling on the tree with a carabiner so the rope automatically pays into the bucket as you ascend. I've never tried it. I've got a bunch of ropes and try to climb on the shortest one possible which I think helps. On really big/tall trees, I'll often switch out to a shorter rope when I'm in the crown if I think I'm going to be there a long time with complex rigging, or I'll haul up and coil my tail and hang it somewhere near me. Makes it easier on the boys on the ground, which gets me out of the tree sooner, and all of us home earlier.

Same story with lowering ropes, I try to encourage the guys to be lowering from a point which is not in the lowering zone. It's safer for so many reasons, and it's also efficient because the branch isn't getting constantly snagged in the lowering rope. When using bigger/longer ropes like 7/8" on the drum we try to keep them flaked into a rope bin. Just keeps things tidy. Keeping ropes clear of the LZ means no time wasted hauling them out, which in turn means you wont be tempted to go cutting in there and accidentally cut through a rope either. I think good rope handling practices go a long way to increase efficiency and safety.

For most of the work that I do there isn't much hazard. We're generally far enough away from the chipper that rope getting into it isn't a possibility. We also run only a small crew - 3 or 4 guys on the ground at most on average days. Having a smaller crew makes things a little safer in my opinion. The most dangerous scenario in my opinion is the one where my buddy had his workers injured - rapid take downs with one or several climbers going at the same time, with the chipper in close proximity to the work site and limited working room so everything is chipped as you go, and a medium to large crew feeding a high capacity chipper. In that sort of environment, people are getting excited, branches flying everywhere, the chipper's running constantly so nobody can hear each other or communicate, and there might also be a couple saws going at the same time. Ropes are likely to be lying around, people are running to clear the LZ, and stuff is getting fed into the chipper as quick as it hits the ground. If you're in one of these high production crews, then this is a real risk for you. The high noise and lack of ability to communicate makes it doubly dangerous - you might see it about to happen, and not be able to yell loud enough to stop it.

As a climber, I'm always keeping my eye on the crew and the same comes back in return. We've got to all look out for each other - not to scream at a person the moment they've done something wrong, but because we're a team and we're looking out for each other. As a groundie, having good rope handling practices isn't an obvious thing. It's as subtle as where you stand, or how you swing a piece when landing it. Keeping the ropes tidy and out of the way, and identifying things before they're a hazard. This is one of those hazards where it's a case of being too late to do anything when it has already happened.

Shaun


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## Castenea

ValleyFirewood said:


> It would stop it faster than letting it just die down!
> 
> My friend has a dyno machine with 2000lb rollers that will do 150+mph if a car has enough power. It stops in 5-6 seconds from runnng wide open, nothing blows up.



Unfortunately 5-6 seconds is more than long enough for the Chipper to devour the entire length of rope. Very few of us use ropes longer than 200'. Some of the west coast guys may use 600' spools occasionally. Probably the fastest way on most chippers to stop them is to kill the engine and let compressive braking stop the cutter, this takes under a minute.


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## isaaccarlson

The longest rope I have is 200' and that is a rigging rope. I will have to get a longer one eventually. 90+ foot trees eat it up fast.


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## StrataTree

ValleyFirewood said:


> Trust me, a brake would not be all that hard or overly expensive to setup on a chipper. I know how chippers work, I used to do repairs to several Veneer brand, 6-10" units.
> 
> It would not explode and would stop it in 5-8 seconds.
> 
> I'm not saying that it would have stopped this accident from not happening, but I bet it would stop many! Maybe a guy looses a hand instead of his whole arm or whole body.



All over but the cryin after 5-8 seconds!!!

As others have said. And you already know.

Sorry to be beating a dead horse here...but "in the blink of an eye" actually means in the blink of an eye! In this case.


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## stumper120

ValleyFirewood said:


> Trust me, a brake would not be all that hard or overly expensive to setup on a chipper. I know how chippers work, I used to do repairs to several Veneer brand, 6-10" units.
> 
> It would not explode and would stop it in 5-8 seconds.
> 
> I'm not saying that it would have stopped this accident from not happening, but I bet it would stop many! Maybe a guy looses a hand instead of his whole arm or whole body.



sounds like your on your way to getting rich. im sure the engineers at bandit or Vermeer want what you know. if you stopped the drum or disk to fast on a large chipper it would probably come loose from the pillow blocks not only killing the groundie but the guy up in the tree


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## tidy

Like Shaun said this one of those hazards that most folks overlook very easily, if you rarely get the chance to get the chipper right up against a tree then you are likely oblivious to the fact it exists-like what happened to me a few months ago: I dragged a branch with a lowering rope entangled and tried to chip it-luckily the climber caught my attention with appropriate hand signals and all was good. I felt like an idiot for nearly causing a serious incident and a good lesson was learnt. There was also a guy decapitated in a nearby town somewhat recently due to this.


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## zapblam

SawStop table saw technology


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## imagineero

There's a difference in momentum between a blade weighing a few ounces and a disk weighing 1,000 pounds.


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## lone wolf

Have a man at the chipper when ever the feed wheels are engaged don't walk away unless they are stopped. Have a small top handle saw right with him cut the damn rope ASAP! Also two men should be at the chipper not one if you get in trouble the other guy can stop the feeders or reverse them . Been there done that!


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## imagineero

You obviously haven't been there or done that. Go back to the start of the thread, read it again, then edit your post to say something more intelligent.


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## lone wolf

imagineero said:


> You obviously haven't been there or done that. Go back to the start of the thread, read it again, then edit your post to say something more intelligent.


Don't tell me what I have done or not done! I already told you what I did in a similar situation! So cutting the rope would be unintelligent? Keeping a saw close for this situation is ignorant? Gave you all good advice but I really don't think I will bother talking to you anymore its a waste!


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## philoshop

Work on a fishing boat or a racing sailboat and you learn very quickly to always be aware of the ropes/lines. Granted it's nothing like a chipper, but mistakes can get unpleasant nonetheless. Training, focus and experience. There's no replay button.


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## imagineero

lone wolf said:


> Don't tell me what I have done or not done! I already told you what I did in a similar situation! So cutting the rope would be unintelligent? Keeping a saw close for this situation is ignorant? Gave you all good advice but I really don't think I will bother talking to you anymore its a waste!



I normally wouldn't bother repeating myself, but what you're suggesting potentially puts other peoples lives at risk so I think it's worth taking the time.

so let's go over it again....




lone wolf said:


> if you get in trouble the other guy can stop the feeders or reverse them



As already mentioned several times in this thread, once a rope has passed the feed rollers there is *no* way of stopping it. Shutting down the machine, stopping or reversing the rollers, all have zero effect. The same is true of winch cables, vine like material etc. This is mentioned in the operating manual for the chipper, and is also one of the warning stickers on the machine. The size of the rope is smaller than the gap between the rollers, so the rope/cable/vine will simply keep going into the machine, taking whatever it is wrapped around with it. 




lone wolf said:


> Have a small top handle saw right with him cut the damn rope ASAP



Once the rope has wrapped around the disk or drum, 200' of rope will be sucked into the machine in less than 1 second. Are you suggesting you can notice the rope has passed the rollers, stop the rollers (no effect), realise the rollers are not working, pickup the saw, start it, and cut through the rope in less than 1 second? 



lone wolf said:


> So cutting the rope would be unintelligent?



Thankfully you would not even have time to consider picking up the saw, because if you did and you managed to get to the rope in time, the rope would likely wrap round the saw and suck that in too, probably with you attached to it. You might as well say "I buck the first log as the tree is falling, saves a little time", or "I never worry about people shooting me, if they do I just move out of the way of the bullet".



lone wolf said:


> Keeping a saw close for this situation is ignorant?



It sure is. The saw cannot possibly be of any use, so all it does is give you a false sense of security.



lone wolf said:


> Have a man at the chipper when ever the feed wheels are engaged don't walk away unless they are stopped



This is a good idea, and something that we always do, but whenever I've heard of this kind of accident occurring what has generally happened is that it was not obvious a rope was about to go into the chipper. It's often an older faded rope which is not easy to see, and it may be wrapped around the branch underneath where you can't see it. In that case, the man at the chipper with a hand on the control bar will be of no use since the rope will be in the machine (and unable to be stopped) before you ever notice what has happened. In most cases, this event happens so quickly that you don't even know why you've been hurt, or why one of your workers is now dead. It's only later you figure out what went on.

This type of accident is thankfully not all that common, mostly because there aren't that many times your average residential crew is able to get a chipper right up to the tree. If you are in those situations, then the steps you can take to reduce the possibility of it happening are;

Understand and believe that a rope that has entered the chipper cannot be stopped or reversed in any way. Believe that it will be pulled in with enough force to pull the tree you are in right out of the ground with you in it. It will take everything with it, and there is no time to avoid it.

Make all your crew aware of this also.

Keeping the chipper far enough away from the tree that no rope can reach it.

If in the tree, try to use the shortest rope possible. Try to have the tail of your rope either coiled and in the tree with you so it cannot be put in the chipper, or redirected through a crotch so the tail is on the ground far from the lowering zone which reduces the chance of it becoming entangled in brush. 

With lowering ropes, keeping them in a rope bin or flaked out somewhere far from the LZ helps. Have one person nominated to deal with the lowering rope so it doesn't get out of hand. 

If using a tag line, remove it from the LZ once the piece is on the ground, and put it somewhere it cannot become entangled in brush.

If winching, keeping the winch cable spooled on the drum while chipping is the safest thing. If (like most people) you hookup the next pull while the last piece is being chipped, then use a 3 man operation - one man hooking up the cable, one man on the controls, and a third man off to the side keeping the cable out of the material being fed in.

If chipping vines, keep it short. 6'-8' is a good size for safety.

Even if there were a chipper made that could instantly stop the disk/drum, and you had a man on the controls ready to activate it, it still wouldn't help. In all cases I've seen, people had not even noticed the rope had entered the machine. By the time you realize it has happened, it's too late. The safety needs to happen before the rope ever gets near the machine.

Shaun


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## lone wolf

imagineero said:


> I normally wouldn't bother repeating myself, but what you're suggesting potentially puts other peoples lives at risk so I think it's worth taking the time.
> 
> so let's go over it again....
> 
> 
> Like I told you I already had it happen and I cut the rope! 200 feet a second is not accurate you have to take many things under consideration! A disk and a drum chipper will act different
> 
> As already mentioned several times in this thread, once a rope has passed the feed rollers there is *no* way of stopping it. Shutting down the machine, stopping or reversing the rollers, all have zero effect. The same is true of winch cables, vine like material etc. This is mentioned in the operating manual for the chipper, and is also one of the warning stickers on the machine. The size of the rope is smaller than the gap between the rollers, so the rope/cable/vine will simply keep going into the machine, taking whatever it is wrapped around with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once the rope has wrapped around the disk or drum, 200' of rope will be sucked into the machine in less than 1 second. Are you suggesting you can notice the rope has passed the rollers, stop the rollers (no effect), realise the rollers are not working, pickup the saw, start it, and cut through the rope in less than 1 second?
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully you would not even have time to consider picking up the saw, because if you did and you managed to get to the rope in time, the rope would likely wrap round the saw and suck that in too, probably with you attached to it. You might as well say "I buck the first log as the tree is falling, saves a little time", or "I never worry about people shooting me, if they do I just move out of the way of the bullet".
> 
> 
> 
> It sure is. The saw cannot possibly be of any use, so all it does is give you a false sense of security.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good idea, and something that we always do, but whenever I've heard of this kind of accident occurring what has generally happened is that it was not obvious a rope was about to go into the chipper. It's often an older faded rope which is not easy to see, and it may be wrapped around the branch underneath where you can't see it. In that case, the man at the chipper with a hand on the control bar will be of no use since the rope will be in the machine (and unable to be stopped) before you ever notice what has happened. In most cases, this event happens so quickly that you don't even know why you've been hurt, or why one of your workers is now dead. It's only later you figure out what went on.
> 
> This type of accident is thankfully not all that common, mostly because there aren't that many times your average residential crew is able to get a chipper right up to the tree. If you are in those situations, then the steps you can take to reduce the possibility of it happening are;
> 
> Understand and believe that a rope that has entered the chipper cannot be stopped or reversed in any way. Believe that it will be pulled in with enough force to pull the tree you are in right out of the ground with you in it. It will take everything with it, and there is no time to avoid it.
> 
> Make all your crew aware of this also.
> 
> Keeping the chipper far enough away from the tree that no rope can reach it.
> 
> If in the tree, try to use the shortest rope possible. Try to have the tail of your rope either coiled and in the tree with you so it cannot be put in the chipper, or redirected through a crotch so the tail is on the ground far from the lowering zone which reduces the chance of it becoming entangled in brush.
> 
> With lowering ropes, keeping them in a rope bin or flaked out somewhere far from the LZ helps. Have one person nominated to deal with the lowering rope so it doesn't get out of hand.
> 
> If using a tag line, remove it from the LZ once the piece is on the ground, and put it somewhere it cannot become entangled in brush.
> 
> If winching, keeping the winch cable spooled on the drum while chipping is the safest thing. If (like most people) you hookup the next pull while the last piece is being chipped, then use a 3 man operation - one man hooking up the cable, one man on the controls, and a third man off to the side keeping the cable out of the material being fed in.
> 
> If chipping vines, keep it short. 6'-8' is a good size for safety.
> 
> Even if there were a chipper made that could instantly stop the disk/drum, and you had a man on the controls ready to activate it, it still wouldn't help. In all cases I've seen, people had not even noticed the rope had entered the machine. By the time you realize it has happened, it's too late. The safety needs to happen before the rope ever gets near the machine.
> 
> Shaun



. Every situation is different my situation was a climbing line was put in with a branch by a Groundie and it wound up like a winch and started bending the tree the climber was in so I simply cut the rope at the chipper I happen to keep a MS 200 T hanging on the hyd handles. if it would have kept going it may have broke the tree! And yes I can stop a winch cable I have Amsteel Blue and it can be cut! So is your advice to do nothing? And that part you posted about the saw getting wrapped up in the rope is one hell of a stretch! Don't you know how fast a saw will cut a rope under tension!


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## lone wolf

What didn't you like Corbin or is it Treeco or is it Del?


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## imagineero

lone wolf said:


> . Every situation is different my situation was a climbing line was put in with a branch by a Groundie and it wound up like a winch and started bending the tree the climber was in so I simply cut the rope at the chipper I happen to keep a MS 200 T hanging on the hyd handles. if it would have kept going it may have broke the tree! And yes I can stop a winch cable I have Amsteel Blue and it can be cut! So is your advice to do nothing? And that part you posted about the saw getting wrapped up in the rope is one hell of a stretch! Don't you know how fast a saw will cut a rope under tension!



I don't get your point. You are advocating cutting the rope after it has entered the chipper rather than keeping the rope from the chipper, and saying that you have a good chance of doing so? You're absolutely on par with saying "yeah it's ok to climb up into the feed chute and kick logs in, there's a last chance pull cord there for that reason". Seriously, this is an area that ought to have zero tolerance. 

Sounds like you got pretty lucky, considering the number of people killed or seriously injured who also avoided death by a narrow margin. From the sounds of it, your rope managed to get coiled round the shaft rather than the disk/drum. As a result of that, it fed on at a speed humans can comprehend rather than entering as a whip crack. Don't fool yourself though; you didn't avoid death by your quick thinking. You risked death by your poor practices. Had the rope been taken up by the blade any one of the 100 times per second the blades are going past, that rope would have gone through in a shot. As luck had it, it wound up on the shaft at the rate of only about 1'/second. You made a good call to cut it and probably saved your climbers life. Not putting his life at risk would have been the better option.

My advice has already been written above, and it's sound. If you see a rope entering a chipper, do not attempt to cut it. Run. If someone else's life is on the line then you've got to make that call at the time. It's very much a question like "I see a guy falling out of a tree, what should I do?" Cutting the rope really isn't that far away from attempting to catch the falling climber. In your case you were lucky that it fed onto the shaft at a very slow rate, but had it caught on a blade the rate of feed would have been close to 450'/second or 300 miles an hour. This isn't a joke. Even considering cutting it is madness. 

In the case of the near miss my friends company experienced, they were very lucky. The guy who was attempting to untie the rope from the branch got smashed in the head and his hard hat saved his life. He received a concussion and was completely unaware of what had happened. The other guy caught in a very mild bight received broken ribs, broken fingers and rope burn and was off work nearly 3 months. There is no way anybody could have cut the rope. The only way to prevent this sort of injury is to prevent the rope ever entering the chipper, I can't make it any plainer than that. It's a hazard that many people are not even aware of. Trying to cut the rope after it has entered the chipper is very much like trying to grab a branch as you're falling out of a tree. Could save your life but probably not.

Shaun


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## lone wolf

imagineero said:


> I don't get your point. You are advocating cutting the rope after it has entered the chipper rather than keeping the rope from the chipper, and saying that you have a good chance of doing so? You're absolutely on par with saying "yeah it's ok to climb up into the feed chute and kick logs in, there's a last chance pull cord there for that reason". Seriously, this is an area that ought to have zero tolerance.
> 
> Sounds like you got pretty lucky, considering the number of people killed or seriously injured who also avoided death by a narrow margin. From the sounds of it, your rope managed to get coiled round the shaft rather than the disk/drum. As a result of that, it fed on at a speed humans can comprehend rather than entering as a whip crack. Don't fool yourself though; you didn't avoid death by your quick thinking. You risked death by your poor practices. Had the rope been taken up by the blade any one of the 100 times per second the blades are going past, that rope would have gone through in a shot. As luck had it, it wound up on the shaft at the rate of only about 1'/second. You made a good call to cut it and probably saved your climbers life. Not putting his life at risk would have been the better option.
> 
> My advice has already been written above, and it's sound. If you see a rope entering a chipper, do not attempt to cut it. Run. If someone else's life is on the line then you've got to make that call at the time. It's very much a question like "I see a guy falling out of a tree, what should I do?" Cutting the rope really isn't that far away from attempting to catch the falling climber. In your case you were lucky that it fed onto the shaft at a very slow rate, but had it caught on a blade the rate of feed would have been close to 450'/second or 300 miles an hour. This isn't a joke. Even considering cutting it is madness.
> 
> In the case of the near miss my friends company experienced, they were very lucky. The guy who was attempting to untie the rope from the branch got smashed in the head and his hard hat saved his life. He received a concussion and was completely unaware of what had happened. The other guy caught in a very mild bight received broken ribs, broken fingers and rope burn and was off work nearly 3 months. There is no way anybody could have cut the rope. The only way to prevent this sort of injury is to prevent the rope ever entering the chipper, I can't make it any plainer than that. It's a hazard that many people are not even aware of. Trying to cut the rope after it has entered the chipper is very much like trying to grab a branch as you're falling out of a tree. Could save your life but probably not.
> 
> Shaun


No keep it away by all means. I learned long ago watch the chipper closely dont walk away with it running! If you watch it feed you can stop it before the rope or a person gets pulled in! I had to cut the rope no other choice and I can tell you under tension it will cut fast! That's it!


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## imagineero

I know


lone wolf said:


> No keep it away by all means. I learned long ago watch the chipper closely dont walk away with it running! If you watch it feed you can stop it before the rope or a person gets pulled in! I had to cut the rope no other choice and I can tell you under tension it will cut fast! That's it!




I know how fast a rope cuts under tension. I've tried cutting through wire core lanyards and ropes with chainsaws and handsaws, just to see what would happen. The results are scary, particularly with the weighted rope vs handsaw. A touch is all it takes! A rope that has entered a chipper is not a rope under tension, it's a rope potentially moving at 300 miles per hour. Let's not send the wrong signal out here, and give the impression that "the rope will be easy to cut because it's under tension". The rope will not be easy to cut, it's moving at a speed you cannot comprehend. Getting whipped by it can kill you. You will not even have time to comprehend the fact that it has entered the chipper, let alone make or act on a decision to cut it.


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## lone wolf

imagineero said:


> I know
> 
> 
> 
> I know how fast a rope cuts under tension. I've tried cutting through wire core lanyards and ropes with chainsaws and handsaws, just to see what would happen. The results are scary, particularly with the weighted rope vs handsaw. A touch is all it takes! A rope that has entered a chipper is not a rope under tension, it's a rope potentially moving at 300 miles per hour. Let's not send the wrong signal out here, and give the impression that "the rope will be easy to cut because it's under tension". The rope will not be easy to cut, it's moving at a speed you cannot comprehend. Getting whipped by it can kill you. You will not even have time to comprehend the fact that it has entered the chipper, let alone make or act on a decision to cut it.


You and I are talking about two different things here you are referring to an unloaded rope I was talking about a loaded rope attached to a tree then climber! Does that clear any of this up with you?


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## imagineero

We are clearly from two completely different planets.


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