# Black Powder anyone???



## hobby climber (Nov 26, 2005)

Last year while over in Michigan at a "Gander Mountain" store, I saw an in-line muzzle loader that caught my eye. It was a CVA Ultima Pro .50cal. with camo stock AND barrel. Because I live in Canada (and the recent gun laws), I was not able to buy this gun in the US. I tryed to order one at my local gun shop in Canada and was told it wasn't available here!  All last winter I kept checking every month to see if it was available to no avail. The guys at the gun shop pulled one out on the hat for me, they bypassed the Canadian distributor and called CVA and asked them to toss one on the truck with the next shipment to Canadian. They ordered two but only one was sent. I was hopping it would be in before deer season...wasn't! Opening day I shot a deer with my T/C Hawken .50cal., two hours later I got a call from home saying that a gun I ordered had just arived. Now I don't know about any of you guys out there who hunt but I still get excited over a new gun. This makes 5 muzzle loading guns I now own. They are: Hawken .32cal percussion, Hawken .50cal percussion, 20ga Flintlock, 12ga SxS Shotgun percussion, and my new one, CVA Optima Pro in-line w/209 primer .50cal w/camo stock & barrel (fluted barrel). I'll let you know how it shoots once I get some time to play with it. The next muzzle loader on my list will be a .54 or .58cal flintlock in an Early Virginian style made by Tennessee Valley Muzzle-loader (TVM). It'll be a custom gun...just need to take down a lot more tree first! So...who else shoots or hunts with Black Powder???


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## fishhuntcutwood (Nov 26, 2005)

I've done it in the past, and had "blast" doing it, but now I only bow hunt for big game. Nothing against long guns, I just enjoy archery more.

Jeff


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## hobby climber (Nov 26, 2005)

HuntFishCutWood...I hear ya, my passion is hunting with anything that will take game. I just enjoy being in the woods! BTW, I practice at my clubs archery range at least once a week. Use to bow hunt moose with a bow. Could call them in to about 60 yards of me but they always hung up just out of range. Had a falling out with the guys I bow hunted with regarding ethics several years ago,(ie-No guns in bow camp), but it didn't stop one of them from shooting a moose with a rifle during BOW ONLY season!    !!! After that incident, I started hunting deer with Black Powder during the controlled hunt, much closer to home as well. Here's a couple of pics for ya.


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## fishhuntcutwood (Nov 27, 2005)

Dude, nice deer. And is that a spruce grouse? I shot one with a bow on my birthday a couple of years ago while moose hunting south of Fairbanks. I don't have any digi pics of it though. He tasted good, and I've still got some of his feathers, which I use to tie flies with.

Jeff


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## jokers (Nov 27, 2005)

I shoot a Remington 700ML .50 cal that I bought when they first came out. It`s a pretty good shooter, I shoot Maxi Hunters and 110 grains of Pyrodex as my favorite load, the barrel fouls too much to shoot sabots after a few rounds. I`ve been thinking of getting something more modern that will take a 209 primer but since I don`t even hunt with the 700 I`m not in any hurry.

Right now I`m thinking more about a new bow and either a 395xp or ms660 for racing.

Russ


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## hobby climber (Nov 27, 2005)

FHCW, its a ruffed grouse I took during a moose hunt. Everyone agreed that shooting grouse with.22cal would make to much noise so the bow was the obvious choice. Since no one in this group can shoot a bow...they are now shooting "CB-longs" in there .22 rifles. Hardly any noise at all and just as effective! Joker, the 700ml gun was one of the hottest MLs of choice when it first came out some years ago. Lots of innovations since then. As far as getting more flame from the cap...(assuming you are using a #11 caps), look into changing your nipple that takes the #11 to one that will accept a musket cap!!! This will give you about 40% hotter flame and penetrate your powder charge better on the wet days, (more reliable). About powder...Pyrodex, burns a bit cleaner with less smoke than Black Powder but once it get any moisture on it, its useless! Black Powder on the other hand fowls the barrel quite a bit, smokes like hell, and isn't very stable after a long shelf life. Useless if wet but once its dried out, your good to go again unlike pyrodex. The powder of choice thats most used today would be "Triple Seven",(777). It burns clean(very little smoke), doesn't fowl the barrel as much, easy to clean, very stable, and burns about 30% hotter that the other two mentioned above. That means that you don't need to use as much powder down the bore! Example: 70gr of 777powder would be equivalent to 100gr of BP or Pyrodex powder by volume giving you the same results!  Thats why the in-line guys like it so much. The traditional guys still insist on using regular Black Powder. Because I'm not crazy about using the #11 caps in my percussion guns, I converted them all over so they will accept the musket style caps simply by changing the nipple. I purchased them from Cabelas in Michigan about four years ago. It was a quick fix on damp days! HC


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## fishhuntcutwood (Nov 27, 2005)

hobby climber said:


> FHCW, its a ruffed grouse I took during a moose hunt.



Very cool. Do you have spruce grouse where you're at?

Jeff


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## hobby climber (Nov 27, 2005)

FHCW, None here...ya got to go north a few hours to find them. Only thing we have around here are deer, squires, rabbits( cotton-tails & jacks), ducks & geese and just recently...turkeys! My club along with the help of the Ministry of Natural Resources(MNR), in a pilot project, released a small number of wild turkeys several years back. Last year was the areas first ever turkey hunt! The club use to release about 1000 pheasants a year prior to the turkeys but they have never did well since the 1970's. I live in Essex county which is surrounded by Lake St.Clair to the north...the Detroit River to the west...and Lake Erie to the south. What the area lacks in hunting, it makes up in its fisheries. Lake Erie has world class musky fishing along with bass, walleye(pickerel), perch, pike, sturgeon. The Detroit River for its migrating walleye in the spring & summer. And Lake Erie's Western Basin for some to the best walleye & bass fishing in this part of the country. In the winter, just about every cannal along the Detroit River, you can ice-fish. This is where that "Garage Sale Chainsaw" comes in handy!!! HC


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## okietreedude1 (Nov 29, 2005)

I have muzzleloader hunted longer than either bow/rifle. I have a Pedersoli 50 cal Kentucky long rifle. I bought it w/ a flintlock, but after many missed shots and misfires, I bought the cap lock and traded the locks out. I still have the flint lock that I occasionally put on when I take it to a 'special event' to show the true traditional muzzleloading firearm, but as for hunting Im sticking w/ the cap. Only iron sights as well.

I finaly got my first deer this yr with it. 9pt at 50 yds.

Im shooting a big bullet (not sure the grain) and pushing it with 90 grains of FFG black powder. I shoot the ole' patched round ball at fun events.

The old man at the gun shop keeps trying to get me to switch to an inline, but I keep blowing himoff. I just cant do it yet. I still like the primitive look and feel.


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## hobby climber (Nov 29, 2005)

...Next on my wish list. Its a toss up between a GRCS or a very nice Flintlock rifle! Looking at a custom late Virginia or grand rifle by Tennessee Valley Muzzleloader Inc. (TVM). www.avsia.com/tvm/grand.htm Check it out and tell me you don't want one of there guns! A bit pricey but they are all hand made with many options to choose from. www.avsia.com/tvm/ Like to get one built suitable to take down a moose. HC


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## ccicora (Dec 8, 2005)

I shoot a 50 cal Omega with TC 250 Shockwaves and 100 gr. 777 backed by a Kleenbore primer..... If I miss under 150 yds.... its all my falt. I know I can hit milk jugs at 200 yds but not the way I want to. A bit more refining and then we will work out farther.....


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## Husky288XP (Dec 8, 2005)

Flintlock, thats what black powder shooting should be. All these in-lines are nothing but single shot modern rifles dam near.


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## ccicora (Dec 8, 2005)

I live in shotgun only country so if you want to be able to reach out and touch one you have to get a muzzleloader. That was my main reason. Second is that it is way lighter with a scope than the Rem. 1100 was with iron sights..... But I have dropped deer at 125 yds with the 1100. And yes it has a smooth bore and I shoot rifled AA slugs out of it. But the Omega gives a challenge in that ussally there is never a second shot. I am a ussally hunt from the ground.


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## bwalker (Dec 8, 2005)

hobby climber said:


> I live in Essex county which is surrounded by Lake St.Clair to the north...the Detroit River to the west...and Lake Erie to the south. What the area lacks in hunting, HC


 You have some of the best waterfowling in the world. I am envious.:angry2:


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## bwalker (Dec 8, 2005)

> Second is that it is way lighter with a scope than the Rem. 1100 was with iron sights.....


 I can vouch for that. I hauled a model 1100 with a 30" barrel and a dozen dekes on a walk in duck hunt once. Not fun.


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## Husky288XP (Dec 8, 2005)

I knew New York sucked, with their slug guns and small trees.


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## hobby climber (Dec 9, 2005)

Was at the bow range tonight and met a guy has who a friend that does wood carving. He tells me this guy also carves stocks for muzzle-loaders and is quite good at doing in-lays in the stock. I have his name & number and will give him a call Friday. He lives in Harrow Ontario about 20 minuets from me and wouldn't cha know it, I have some tree trimming work to do out that way this Saturday.  Hey BWALKER, its interesting you mentioned water-fowling...I've been woken up everyday for the last week or so with the guys on the river shooting ducks and/or geese!!! CCICORA...have you looked into zeroing in with the "POWER BELT" bullets??? See www.powerbeltbullets.com this is what I used to zero in with...very accurate but doesn't open up enough (for me) to drop deer size game quickly. For hunting, I use the black powder Hornady sabots,(45-250 GR SST/ML). Not quite as accurate as the Power Built but it expands much better and is a better choice for a deer hunting bullet, IMO. Good luck at the range! HC


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## underwor (Dec 9, 2005)

I agree with Husky228XP. I shoot a Dixie Gun Works Pennsylvania flintlock kit that I bought in Union City, TN in 1970 and assembled over the next 20+ years. 40" long, 7/8" octagonal barrel in 45 caliber, weight about 16 lbs. About 5" tall from butt plate to end of barrel. Still need to fine tune the sights, it is about 6" to left at 80 yds. A lot of fun.


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## hobby climber (Dec 10, 2005)

UNDERWOR, as far as fine tuning the sights...If its to fine an adjustment to make by drifting and re-peening either the front or rear sight(dovetail base), you may want to lightly file one side of the front blade sight.  Just make sure you file the correct side of the front sight!!! No big deal if you make a mistake, you can always order a new front blade sight for your gun. I think I know the gun you have. Its one that Dixie produced and sold itself. They were and still are fine shooters and highly prised to this day. The company quit making them over 20 years ago for some reason. If memory serves, they were offered as kits only and came in .45 & .50cal . HC


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## Trignog (Dec 10, 2005)

I have always wanted to get a 50 cal muzzle loader, but have no good place to shoot other than private range or relativly large private property.

Now my politicle rant.
I feel so sorry for you Hobby Climber, welcome to European socialism.

We have our crime but we (the U.S.) are one of the most populous nations in the world. A lot of other countries express all emotions with fire arms or stoning, I don't think guns are a cause of crime, in fact we do well considering the free est, most populous, richest nation is so heavily armed. 

Believe it or not, we have manners and can handle the resposibility of fire arms, so can Canada I believe. I see so many foreighners who come here and make a tremendous living because they are used to opression, I respect these people more than some Americans. I have gotten to know some of these, they are so surprised that such a prosperous free people have so many guns. In their countries they see those guns every day. We only see them on law enforcement and during hunting season, (for the most part.) Unless you live in Hartford. 

I am sorry to turn this into a 2nd ammendment rant and veere from muzzle loaders, but I have read a lot lately about whats going on in Canada, my point is we are not a violent society but we are well armed and prosperous. Most guns never come out of the closet or gun cabenet. 

What really sums it up for me is something I one heard (I am paraphrasing) *"When the people fear the government it is called tyrany, when the government fears the people it is called freedom"*

Stand up for you freedom Canadia!


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## ccicora (Dec 10, 2005)

hobby climber, I use to use PB for shooting. I could pull 2" groups at 100 with them out of my Black Diamand. When I upgraded to the Omega I was getting a 6-8" group at 100. So I changed to the Shockwaves 250's which is the same as the SST's 250. As for knock down power of the PB's the three deer I shot with them never moved over 10 feet. I think they are a great bullet for 0- 125 yds. and the arrow tips to 150.


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## hobby climber (Dec 10, 2005)

TRIGNOG, I hear ya man! If the Canadian legal system would just enforce the gun laws it already had on the books before...then we would not need new gun laws!!! They are nothing more than a government tax/$$$ grab and serves no purpose, IMO! BTW, in Canada, a muzzle-loader is classified in the same category as a shotgun or NOT in the rifle category. So anywhere you can shoot a shotgun...you can shoot a muzzle-loader! Also, in Canada, a "Flintlock rifle" does not have to be registered!!! ...Kinda makes ya wana go out & buy another "lock-stock-&-barrel" don't it? CCICORA, how your rifle is one thing but Shot Placement is EVERYTHING! I remember when I was much younger (back in the early 80's), there were no in-lines, at least to my knowledge. Everything was flint or side-lock percussion. Everyone built there own and took much pride in doing so. Its ashame that this is becoming a lost art/craft now a days. Even finding a muzzle-loader in your local gun shop with a shock carved from wood is getting hard to find! To me, a finely made hand carved/crafted muzzle-loader with a quality "Davis or Syler(sp)" lock & furniture with premium+++ wood & barrel is worth more than any factory made modern gun produced today! Ya gots ta love a fine flinter!!!


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## ccicora (Dec 10, 2005)

hobby climber, yes shot placement is everything, that is why I spend several days on the range shooting various distances. Now I will admit I slacked off this year a bit and only logged in around 200 shots from my Omega but I know where it hits from 0- 200 yds. As for wanting to use better designed equipment. I would rather do it. My farthest ever track 90 yds next 70 yds the rest under 5 yds. I hate tracking a wounded animal and I've seen way to many animals get winged by somebody taking a pop shot. I look at like this one shot one kill.


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## hobby climber (Dec 10, 2005)

You mentioned "one shot one kill". True enough but shot placement determines if the animal will drop on the spot before it expires or runs and gives up the ghost 100 yards down the trail! If you hit it in the lungs for example, it may not go down right away. Why??? A lung shot means it will bleed to death and depending on the type of projectile, it could be quick or slow. Lets say you are using a patched round ball or conical made of pure lead. Pure lead DOES NOT break apart but rather stays together after impact. Modern lead bullets to some degree will break apart! A pure lead round (after fired), will enter the cavity of say a deer and if it hits bone, will tumble, causing more damage and therefore greater blood loss. Because it doesn't break apart, it maintains its mass (therefore it energy), and give better penetration into your game. The newer sabot are basically modern projectiles that are fired out of a muzzle-loader rendering it the same as a modern firearm and everything that goes along with it. Back to shot placement...If you shoot at the lungs and the bullet passes through it, sit back and wait 30 minutes to an hour cuz your deer will take a while to bleed out. Now on the other hand, if you shoot a bit higher on your deer, say a spine shot, the deer will drop on the spot cuz its now paralyzed so to speak. Usually a good spine shot will kill the animal due to shock and not blood loss. Regarding shock of a magnum bullet in modern arms...if you shoot an animal with a magnum bullet, say a 300winchester magnum, the bullet will pass through the animal faster that the flesh can move thus causing a "shock wave" (pebble in the pond action), the animal will drop dead very quick. This may help to explain, imagine you have a sun burn and someone slaps you on the back...how does your body react??? Thats kinda the same thing but on a much lesser scale. In archery, a spine shot is called an anchor shot but a follow up shot(kill shot) must be taken asap to put the animal down. Ethically, as hunters, we MUST respect the animals we pursue, take the time to understand them and learn there habits. Also, take proper care of our equipment/weapons and practice to become proficient with them. Learn how to properly field dress your game so as not to waist any meat. Anything less would be disrespectful to the animals we hunt!!! That said, anyone who takes game consistently with a traditional muzzle-loader rifle especially a flint-lock or a long/re-curve bow, my hats off to those hunters and I hold you in high regard! HC


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## bwalker (Dec 11, 2005)

> If you shoot at the lungs and the bullet passes through it, sit back and wait 30 minutes to an hour cuz your deer will take a while to bleed out.


 i have shot tons of animals through the lungs with rifles and many dropped in there tracks. If they did run it was under 100 yards. Aiming for the spine for most shooters isnt aoption as there marksmanship isnt good enoguh. The lung shoot is a much bigger target and alwasy kills.
Now if you want to anchore game in its tracks every time use the shoulder blade shot. Put the verticle cross hair on the log and the horizontal hair 2/3 of the way up. This shot takes out both lungs, breaks the shoulder and fubars the central nervous sytem. Bang-Flop.


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## ccicora (Dec 11, 2005)

Yea I must be a terrible person in that I shoot them and have them haggin skined in under an hour....And I have yet to be able to pickle a heart dam things are always shredded to piecs from those fragmenting bullets I use. And I've never shot a single deer from a tree stand either....

But seriously we both agree drop that animal as fast as posible with a well placed shot (even Ben does).... As for what your using for a gun who really cares... At least you are out there carrying on a tradition that is fading fast in todays society because it takes work to bag a deer.

I stopped using the Remington 1100 as it has many cases of ammo through it and it's starting to get sloppy. So before something really happens to the gun I would rather keep it as it is part of the family. As for shooting a traditional muzzleloader there fun but not for me. This is my personal choice, not yours. Also I do respcet those that do shoot them. I have not once said anything derogitory towards you or your beliefs.


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## jokers (Dec 11, 2005)

Husky288XP said:


> I knew New York sucked, with their slug guns and small trees.



But not as bad as Pennsylvania with all it`s Pennsyltuckians! 

My area just went to rifles for deer hunting but it seems that the recent harsh winters coupled with a poor deer management program has left few deer to be taken. I`ve hardly heard of anyone taking any deer in this area although two friends of mine got really nice bucks. It used to be that with everyone getting antlerless permits in addition to the regular buck tags, anyone who hunted could get seven or eight deer. Now alot of guys are going empty handed.

BTW Steve, I`ve heard that several of the guys in the Penn State forestry program have small wood, would you care to comment?

Russ


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## Marky Mark (Dec 11, 2005)

jokers said:


> But not as bad as Pennsylvania with all it`s Pennsyltuckians!
> 
> My area just went to rifles for deer hunting but it seems that the recent harsh winters coupled with a poor deer management program has left few deer to be taken. I`ve hardly heard of anyone taking any deer in this area although two friends of mine got really nice bucks. It used to be that with everyone getting antlerless permits in addition to the regular buck tags, anyone who hunted could get seven or eight deer. Now alot of guys are going empty handed.
> 
> Russ



It should be that they are going empty handed. There is way to many deer in the US. Look at all the crying in PA. "There's no more deer" No one cried when they were shooting 5-8 deer a year including anything that had an bump on it's head. 
The plus bigger, healthier mature animals. Many states including mine were on the band wagaon of selling tags and drawing more hunters. PA and NY included. Now they find out they can't support these huge herds.So when they let every Hehaw blast away for the last 10 years here's your results.
The bigger cry babys are the poor hunters. They miss the days of seeing 20 deer a day in any tree stand. Now that they have to really hunt making it an effort to see a shooter they all complain "poor management" The poor managment was when they let these herds get out of control. 
Think like a coyote and you'll always fill your tag.


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## Husky288XP (Dec 11, 2005)

IDK Russ,

But I hear that our wood is bigger than that of the Paul Smith's forestry students.


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## hobby climber (Dec 11, 2005)

Shot placement is important but this being a Black Powder topic, I forgot to mention follow-through! Those of us who shoot flint-locks or even percussion(side-locks), must have at one time or another experienced a hang-fire. This happened to me on a damp hunting day about three years back. I'am very careful to keep the powder dry and the hammer & nipple covered with an oil soaked rag to keep moisture away. The one thing I overlooked was my cap holder that I whore around my neck. The caps had gotten damp and rendered then useless. As a nice dear presented itself, I fired and nothing happened. Realizing the problem, I fumbled through my possibles bag and found my tin of #11 caps and retrieved one. During this time, the oil rag was off the gun and some moisture was able to get to the exposed nipple and made the powder a bit damp. I placed the dry cap on the gun and took my shot at the deer. The cap fired but no bang. I kept my aim on the deer for about 5-6 seconds as it walked in the bush. The shot finally went off at the same time the deer walked behind a tree, . Thats black powder hunting for ya! Any of you guys have any hang or miss-fire stories you want to share??? HC


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## ccicora (Dec 11, 2005)

Yea, I've got two both happened with my TC Black Diamond. Was at a base of a tree and the snow came in hard couldn't see 10 yds. Snow lasted the last hour and a half with about 8 inches falling. I never thought to put my hand over the open primer. Went to fire it and I got a sizzler with a nice look at the back half of the charge. Open breaches not good when wet.

Next story: Night before a Turkey shoot in Addison NY. Cleaned the gun spotless and used lots of bore butter to shine up the inside of the barrel. Finnaly get to the turkey shoot and get up to shoot Corellware plates at 100yds off hand.... pull the trigger and oooo what preaty fire balls came out and if I was fast enough I might caught the bullet as to was hardly moving.... Turned around to a bunch of hekers and "look he so good its cook on sight!" types of comments... I had left so much butter in the bore that it gummed up the pellets. After a swab and 209 primer fire.... I broke 14 plates in a row and walked out with my three 15-21 lbs. turkeys.

As for shot placement your beating a dead horse. If you can't shoot it how do you plan on placing it?? And how much time did you spend at the range this yr. before the season?


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## Marky Mark (Dec 11, 2005)

I have found using dental wax will keep a cap dry,it moulds up nicely. Next time your at the dentist ask him for a stick or 2 to through in your bag. You can also get it at the drug store for about 2 bucks.


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## okietreedude1 (Dec 11, 2005)

back when i shot my flintlock, i had lots. its the main reason i swithced out. 

ONe night had a nice buck in front. took shot number 1, primer pan went. reloaded primer pan, shot 2 primer only. reloaded pan 3rd time....too dark to shoot. 

when i got to my truck, i decided i was going to pull the trigger till it went off and as you can guess...first pull made the gun go BANG!

I also have had several occasions the flint didnt spark. 

like ive said though, i switched my flint lock out for a cap lock. same gun, just bought the cap lock and installed it.


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## hobby climber (Dec 11, 2005)

Trick of the trade for the flinters out there. Contrary to what some may think...having your powder packed in your gun so it starts coming out of the touch hole (flash hole) IS NOT the best method for reliable ignitions! Think about it, if the air is moist, its easy to dampen the 3-4 granules of powder in the flash hole that could cause a hang/miss fire. A better method used back in the old days was to stick a birds feather end or quill into the flash hole before you send powder down the barrel. What this does is it makes a small hollow cavity in the powder charge so when the pan charge goes off, its flame penetrates deeper into to touch hole and ignites a larger area of dry powder inside the barrel, . Anyone else have any tips/tricks of the trade they want to share??? He's one...I use "RIG", its a waxy kinda oil that I apply generously on the wood around the lock. It helps protect the wood when firing and makes clean up much easier !!! Your turn. HC


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## underwor (Dec 12, 2005)

HC,

You have the rifle pinned down. I even still have the 4 page "newspaper" instruction sheet that came with it. Very Basic!!! I need to just go out and play a few times with the thing. It has been a long time since i shot more than 1 or 2 rounds through it. It does seem to be very consistent on the shots I have taken. 

This year I got a deer with a 257 Roberts. It is the second time I have borrowed the rifle to hunt with it and the second deer I got. I have given both deer a warning shot, prior to dropping them, just to be a nice guy of course. So far have used 4 shells out of the box I bought the first time. Guess I have about 8 more deer in that box of shells. 

Numbers are so high on deer around here that it is common to get 4 or 5 extra doe permits. I even took one in SD with a Pontiac Vibe this fall. It was a clean Kill, only one shot, but I do not recommend the technique, as it gets a bit cashy!!!

Have Fun.


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## bwalker (Dec 12, 2005)

RE: Keeping your powder dry. A trick I learned while hunting in Alaska was to keep a piece of electrical tape over your bore to keep water form entering the bore. This along with Marky's wax tip elliminates wet powder issues for the most part.


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## Husky288XP (Dec 12, 2005)

Rainy days with a flintlock I put a piece of aluminum foil over the lock assembly.

For faster firing you do not need a whole pan full of powder, I usually fill the pan up 1/3 to 1/2 full. If you can before firing, tilt the gun lock side down and tap it to get the powder in the pan away from the touch hole, letting the flame jump the gap between the powder and touch hole.


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## ccicora (Dec 12, 2005)

What the :censored: is wrong with a picture of a live fox??? Nothing! you can find pictures like that on any educational site. There was no blood or gore (sorry AL). You are pethetic in that you play God and censor something that doesn't need it..... Next thing you'll want to censor is how we talk about topics.:bang:


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## hobby climber (Dec 12, 2005)

Husky288XP, an excellent point...I forgot about that one,(not filling the pan more than half full and tapping it to the side for maximum flame at touch hole)! As far as covering the muzzle to keep out the moisture/rain...plastic-wrap & a rubber band works for me. Something else that a lot of guys overlook is the frizzen and keeping it dry. Dixie Gun Works sells them...its a frizzen cover made of leather that friction fits over the frizzen. Not only does it help keep the frizzen dry, it also acts as a safety. Easy to make for the do-it-yourself guys out there. I suppose a hood could also be made for the hammer/jaw that holds the flint! Marky Marks a good suggestion regarding the dental wax. Wax can also but applied around the closed pan to act as a moisture barrier. I still like my oil soaked cloth (shop rag) I place over the lock area to keep everything under it dry! To hold the flint(stone) in the jaws of the hammer, I use to use an old piece of leather around the flint. It works OK but after a few shots ya have to re-adjust the flint. A better method, IMO is to take one of your (pure) lead balls and hammer it flat but not to thin. Cut it to shape and wrap it around your flint and insert into the jaws of the hammer. You'll get a much better/secure fit because as you tighten the jaw, it molds to the flint!  . MM, would have liked to have seen some pics of that fox. If I were ever told I couldn't hunt any more, I would still go out and hunt with a camera. Same skill required, just a different tool! HC


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## Husky288XP (Dec 13, 2005)

Thats a great idea with the lead buffer between the flint and the hammer jaws. I always used leather and it was a pain in the ass.


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## okietreedude1 (Dec 13, 2005)

Marky,

Go to my forum and post that fox pic. I want to see it too.


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## bwalker (Dec 14, 2005)

Thats does it. Since Marky's picture was yanked I am going to go kill 10 of something.


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## Marky Mark (Dec 16, 2005)

It was noting more than a fox hunting for some mice. You asked for me not to post any trapping pictures anymore. Just like the deer problem in many states animals need to be controlled. Let's see the Humane Society killed 25 million cats and dogs alone last year. Yes they want every cat and dog spayed but in nature it ain't gonna happen. You need a harvest. 

This coyote couldn't even eat any more from no teeth and oral pappilomatosis. i.e. warts. It hit the scale at 12 pounds. This must have been a horrible life to have this. You bee the judge. The trapper plays a huge role today as more and more land is developed. Sure it's OK for people to own a house and a vacation home in the mountains but as we encroach there land we need a balance.


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## Marky Mark (Dec 16, 2005)

I tried to take the best picture possible to not offend anyone. If I have offended anyone I am not sorry because this is what most people never see in nature. With Ma nature it's not always blue skies and pretty flowers.


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## b1rdman (Dec 16, 2005)

I'ts good to hear that you're not sorry. I don't know if you'll change anyone's mind but it's nice to know that there are others who understand the need to manage our wildlife.


"You have to save the habitat, you have to save the population - not individual animals. What you want to save is the foundation, the basic infrastructure from which resources are produced. You can't save Fifi and Boo-Boo and Thumper. "

-Ted Nudgent


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## hobby climber (Dec 16, 2005)

MM, you and many others who trap provide a necessary service for the reasons you mentioned as well as some you haven't. To put it in prospective for others who may not understand, I read an article in an outdoor magazine some years ago that talked about the Michigan deer population during the second world war. It went on to describe how the its deer population exploded to ridiculously high numbers due to the fact that the majority of Michigan's sons went off to war & didn't deer hunt for those years. The article describes how the overpopulation of the deer heard suffered starvation, sickness & disease as well as causing major crop damage to farm fields etc. The health of a deer heard (in nature), is directly related to the predatory animals that feed on them. The strong survive and the weak get eaten...remember!!! Thats natures law. Because the wolf population had been eradicated early in that century, the health of Michigan's deer heard has to rely on the hunters to keep the heard in balance. Now I don't know the exact numbers but it's in the millions of harvested deer each fall. Those who trap are regulated just as hunters are so for anyone to suggest that one is worse that the other is ridiculous. Its just a tradition, hobby or way of life thats not in the mainstream and very much misunderstood in this day & age. Ignorance causes fear but knowledge overcomes it! Kinda the same thing with tree climbers, eh!  Trapping IS a part of "The Great Outdoors" and should be welcome with open arms as is hunting & fishing. Personally do not trap but see no reason that it should be banned in any way on this site! As long as pictures that are posted portray ethical and legal trapping practices, I personally would have no problem with it here. Just my .02! ******* Now back to Black Powder stuff...


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## Vman (Dec 26, 2005)

just noticed this thread so i will put in my $.02

i have a T/C Hawkens flint, T/C Black Diamond, and a CVA Optima. i use condoms(un-lubed but i am serious ) with a rubber band over my muzzle. also. TC makes a nice little leather breech cover for the Black Diamond but it is not fool-proof in the rain/snow but it does help somewhat.

a mis-fire of stupidity.....being at my spot with my flint-lock leaning up against a tree most of the day, had a nice doe...broadside and wide-open at 50Y come out from the scrub oak and mountain laurel....i shot and had flash-in-the-pan but no ignition....the gun leaning up against the tree had the FFFFg piled up at the back of the pan so it did not fire the touch-hole....learned the lesson to tap the pan when leaning it against a tree...LOL.

and yes......i hunt Pa and deer are getting scarcer in the woods each year, when i was a kid seeing 20-30+ deer in 1 day was nothing, now seeing 1 is doing good. i hunt a spot that is very good, but a 1 1/2 hour walk in and 4-5 hours dragging out a deer. i have hunted there since i was 13 and now am 42, i probably went 5 seasons without a buck (regular gun season).


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## hobby climber (Dec 27, 2005)

Glad you could join the Black powder topic Vman! Been to long since anyone posted. FFFFg in the pan eh? Thats a good idea if its dry out, i use to use the same, FFFFg in the pan & FFg or FFFg in the barrel(depending on the gun). To many times the moist air effected the finner pan powder. I ended up using FFFg for the pan cuz I found it to be less susceptible to moisture compared to the finer powder. Choosing the right type of flint also makes a difference. The more spark ... the better the ignition. For those who Knapp there own flints, your fortunate to have the knowledge and I envy you guys. For the rest of us, finding quality flints is difficult at best. If you can find them, the German machine cut flints are the best, IMO. Otherwise you'll have to go to some of the black powder type events & shows and hand pick them. Hey VMAN, tell me about your T/C Hawken flinter. Hows the lock...is it the same quality as there percussion? One of my favorite flinters was a .58 cal,(yes .58cal) Harpers Ferry rifle. Didn't know much about its history at the time but I sure loved shooting it. Now I think you can only get it in .50 or .54cal . I sold mine because the jaw screw was bent & I could not find one to replace it with. I know, I know...I was young and didn't know any better at the time! Glad to see that I'm not the only one here that likes to blow smoke!!! As far as the number of deer in my area goes, very few on the main land but lots of em over on Bob-lo Island!!! Bob-lo Island is located in the Detroit River and is the southern most island were the Detroit empties into Lake Erie. HC


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## Vman (Dec 27, 2005)

hi, the only cap lock i can compare the T/C to is a CVA that i had many years ago, which IMO was junk anyway.....i swore i would never again by a CVA product but the Optima seemed nice and i am very happy with it.

anyway, i feel the T/C Hawkens flinter is very good, though i must say thier flints are crap...i use the old english grey flints and they are top notch, long lasting and lots of spark. along with the FFFFg in the pan and 100gr of FFg in the breech pushing a 325gr T/C maxi-ball i get really good results with very quick ignition as long as the touch-hole is clean and acuracy of <2" at 50Y with iron/open sights. in Pa. we have a late season for flints only, no glass....just open sights.
we also have an early season for the inlines (actually any BP gun), thats where i use the Black Diamond and Optima. i use 100gr Triple 7 and power belts in both (i use sabots when at the range for a day to save a few$) and can easily hold less than 2" at 100Y with both guns.


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## hobby climber (Dec 27, 2005)

I was just wondering if T/C uses the same lock (with coil spring inside), on there flinters as they do with there percussions! Still haven't fired my new CVA Optima Pro yet...just haven't found the time prepping for the holidays & all. CVA has come a long way since I first started shooting. There guns were crap and the fit & finish was horrible. They now seem to have there sh*t together and are producing some nice shooters! Anyone out there know of anyone who still makes/carves gun-stocks. Seems to be a shortage of craftsmen around here who know how to turn "lock-stock & barrels" into fine pieces of functional art work! HC


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## Vman (Dec 27, 2005)

i have never seen a TC caplock so i can't tell you about that.
i also feel that CVA was Krap years ago when i had one of their caplocks, i took a chance on an Optima and am happy with it.

as far as stocks...i am a competition smallbore prone shooter and had 2 stocks built for me by Alex Sitman of Masterclass Stocks. http://www.masterclassstocks.com/contactus.html
IMO, he is the best but i do not know if he will build one for a flintlock, u can get in touch with him and ask him. he is not cheap but well worth it, my stocks for my Anschutz 54 and Winchester 52C were $1,000 each, but worth every penny. he is an artist and knows what he is doing, his work is flawless perfection. he customises to your specs, pillar beds, and has stock accessories. he makes fiberglass, wood, and laminate stocks. the 2 i had made are fiberglass, i will post pics if u want.


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## hobby climber (Dec 28, 2005)

Vman, cool web page! I sent it to a buddy of mine who is into the custom stuff and he was very interested. Thanks. What I'm looking for was someone who can carve these into a stock for a flint-lock... www.wrightsguns.com . I saw a web page a while back that harvests black walnut stumps. Some of the nicest wood grains I've ever seen came from the root flairs. Most prised are the trees that had grown along old fence rows that have been subjected to the elements ,(wind). The twisting of the trunk by wind creates a very unique grain in the flairs. Just can't seem to find the link. You can have the best barrels, locks, triggers and wood blanks in the world but if you don't have a quality carver/craftsman to put them all together, all you'll have is an ugly gun in the end! JMO  HC


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## hobby climber (Dec 28, 2005)

Check out the "Late Landcaster" here... www.avsia.com/tvm/ Kinda the thing I'm looking for unless someone else can show me something better. I'm all ears!


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