# Starting a new tree company climbing questions



## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

New member here, just found this site for the first time. I am very interested and serious about starting a tree company down the road. I am very comfortable with a chainsaw, I have worked for the Forest Service on hotshot/handcrews for the last 7 years, and was the main sawyer for a few years. Lots of trigger time cutting large snags, half burned trees, e.c.t up to 38in in diameter. I got very good at putting trees where I want them to go, against their lean, using wedges and reading trees. 

At the end of last summer I picked up some work with a local guy who runs a very successful tree business. I loved the work and saw that there is good money to be made in it. I also saw that my potential would be much greater in this business if I learned how to climb! We did a lot of removals by using a method that involved shooting a weighted bag through the top 3/4 of the tree with a small cord attached to it using a large slingshot. Then tying a 200ft climbing rope to the cord, pulling it back through the tree, and wrapping it around through the limbs. Guys pulling well beyond the trees falling distance would pull the tree away from the house, and I would easily cut it down. This technique of cutting was all very new to me, I had never used ropes to pull on trees before!

Only one climber was on the crew, the rest of the work was done with a bucket truck.

I have done minor rock climbing, and am not afraid of heights. What is a good way to get into learning the ropes of tree climbing/cutting. Books, videos, classes are what I am looking for. Any recommendations?


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## tree md (Feb 13, 2012)

So you've seen it done a few times and are ready to take off on your own are ya...

Well there are about a dozen or so others who ask this question on a weekly basis. Use the search feature. My suggestion would be go to work and apprentice with a reputable service as a climber for a few years. Then you might (big might) be ready to go it on your own.

Best of luck.


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## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

Copy. Search button helped a lot. Thanks

I'm not intending on opening this business anytime soon, just want to learn how to climb


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## OCTJ (Feb 13, 2012)

I loved the work and saw that there is good money to be made in it. 

Could you tell me how you saw that there was good money to be made?

Did you see the invoice and come to that conclusion?

Not trying to be funny,...would really like to know.


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## tree md (Feb 13, 2012)

Lots of good info in the threads here. Check out the ISA website as well.


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## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

^^^^^^^Just got to know my boss really well, and did a lot of side projects with him. I asked him a lot of questions about his biz, and he was honest and gave me a good rundown of good and bad times. Knowing how much he was getting for removals was also a clue to how much he was making per day. He was doing well.


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## OCTJ (Feb 13, 2012)

OK

Thank You for the reply.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 13, 2012)

If only I could keep the money I get paid for treework, and didn't have to spend so much of it on those pesky business expenses !


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## superjunior (Feb 13, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> If only I could keep the money I get paid for treework, and didn't have to spend so much of it on those pesky business expenses !



yep. workmans comp, taxes, liability ins, taxes, vehicle/equipment ins, taxes, equip/truck payments, taxes, breakdowns, taxes, payroll, taxes, unemployment ins, taxes, guys not showing up for work, taxes, bad weather, taxes, maintenance, taxes, permits, taxes, risking your life in a tree, taxes, fuel, taxes and I'm sure I'm forgetting something here...


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## djb6582 (Feb 13, 2012)

tree md said:


> So you've seen it done a few times and are ready to take off on your own are ya...
> 
> Well there are about a dozen or so others who ask this question on a weekly basis. Use the search feature. My suggestion would be go to work and apprentice with a reputable service as a climber for a few years. Then you might (big might) be ready to go it on your own.
> 
> Best of luck.



I agree with tree md 100% I had someone show me the ropes before I started, out on my own.. I still climb for him when he needs he’s getting older and would rather run a saw on the ground, And I bring him in still when I have a question, One thing you’ll learn no two trees are the same and you’ll always be learning!!! Best of luck


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 13, 2012)

superjunior said:


> yep. workmans comp, taxes, liability ins, taxes, vehicle/equipment ins, taxes, equip/truck payments, taxes, breakdowns, taxes, payroll, taxes, unemployment ins, taxes, guys not showing up for work, taxes, bad weather, taxes, maintenance, taxes, permits, taxes, risking your life in a tree, taxes, fuel, taxes and I'm sure I'm forgetting something here...



Don't forget TAXES ! I sent in payoll taxes a couple of weeks ago, and now I have to do more paperwork to tell them what I sent them! It never ends.

To the OP, the best book for starting to climb that I know of is "The Tree Climber's Companion" by Jeff Jepson. It will help get your head in the right place when climbing. It is not a complete "how to" manual on the subject. A second thing to know about actual treework, using a chainsaw in the tree is a whole different world than on the ground. You really need to find someone good to teach you in the real world. The TTCC book will help you figure out if the guy/gal teaching you is safe and knows what they are doing.
Rick


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 13, 2012)

All those expenses are minor aren't they ? I thought I could get Rich and Fat doing this work.

(Sounds of insane laughter erupt from every owner reading this...... )


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## Iustinian (Feb 13, 2012)

There's no point in ever learning to climb. There's an EXTREME precision feller in the video's threads to teach you everything you'll ever need to know, and you'll never have to ever climb using his methods. snicker, humph hahaha.


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## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Don't forget TAXES ! I sent in payoll taxes a couple of weeks ago, and now I have to do more paperwork to tell them what I sent them! It never ends.
> 
> To the OP, the best book for starting to climb that I know of is "The Tree Climber's Companion" by Jeff Jepson. It will help get your head in the right place when climbing. It is not a complete "how to" manual on the subject. A second thing to know about actual treework, using a chainsaw in the tree is a whole different world than on the ground. You really need to find someone good to teach you in the real world. The TTCC book will help you figure out if the guy/gal teaching you is safe and knows what they are doing.
> Rick



Good info, thanks man. BTW, I dont intend on getting rich doing this type of work, and I know its not going to be easy. I just love cutting and being outside.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 13, 2012)

Where in Wyoming are you ? About 30 years ago I worked out of the Worland airport for a crop dusting outfit. 
Rick


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## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

I spend the winters in Jackson. Originally from southern Idaho.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 13, 2012)

Where do you spend your summers. Never been in Jackson, but would fly over to Cody sometimes. As I recall there aren't many hardwoods in the area, just a lot of conifers. Down in the Bighorn valley we had a lot of Cottonwood trees. Over by Douglas....... what trees ? Sage isn't a tree! 
I really did enjoy living there because of the fishing.
Rick


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## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

Lots of Pines, no hardwoods. Engleman spruce, sub alpine fir, doug fir, whitebark pine, aspen, and cottonwood are the main local trees I am used to cutting. I summer wherever the Forest Service sends me.


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## tree md (Feb 13, 2012)

Workman said:


> Lots of Pines, no hardwoods. Engleman spruce, sub alpine fir, doug fir, whitebark pine, aspen, and cottonwood are the main local trees I am used to cutting. I summer wherever the Forest Service sends me.



As I remember, the Forestry Service used to put on climbing classes. Have you asked about that? I had a link to their climbing guidelines awhile back. It might be on my facebook page, lemme look and see if I can find it.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 13, 2012)

Workman,

At the top of the page here, ( just under the big Arboristsite.com logo ) there are links to sponsers and suppliers. I suggest clicking on Sherrilltree (tree people, tree gear ) and Wespur. I buy from Sherrill myself, but then they are only 3 hrs away. Wespur will be closer to you out there. Get catalogs from both and read them. I have also heard good things about Treestuff out of Indy. There are a number of helpful tips and hints in the Sherrill catalog. You can get tree gear at most Vermeer dealers. Looks like the closest one to you may be Billings, MT. When you get serious about buying some gear let me know and I'll be happy to pass some pointers your way.
Rick


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## Iustinian (Feb 13, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> workman,
> 
> At the top of the page here, ( just under the big Arboristsite.com logo ) there are links to sponsers and suppliers. I suggest clicking on Sherrilltree (tree people, tree gear ) and Wespur. I buy from Sherrill myself, but then they are only 3 hrs away. Wespur will be closer to you out there. Get catalogs from both and read them. I have also heard good things about Treestuff out of Indy. There are a number of helpful tips and hints in the Sherrill catalog. You can get tree gear at most Vermeer dealers. Looks like the closest one to you may be Billings, MT. When you get serious about buying some gear let me know and I'll be happy to pass some pointers your way.
> Rick



X's 2 -- I've climbed on many many many different ropes, saddles, and gear and would happy to chime in lol

Bottom line tho, there's TONS of great advice to be gleaned from here, if you can wade thru the pithy comebacks and remarks. That having been said -- none of the best advice you get here will substitute hands on experience served from an experienced and knowledgeable professional arborist. There's a difference between cutting trees and arboriculture. I wish you the best in your endeavors, and stay safe above all else.


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## Workman (Feb 13, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Workman,
> 
> At the top of the page here, ( just under the big Arboristsite.com logo ) there are links to sponsers and suppliers. I suggest clicking on Sherrilltree (tree people, tree gear ) and Wespur. I buy from Sherrill myself, but then they are only 3 hrs away. Wespur will be closer to you out there. Get catalogs from both and read them. I have also heard good things about Treestuff out of Indy. There are a number of helpful tips and hints in the Sherrill catalog. You can get tree gear at most Vermeer dealers. Looks like the closest one to you may be Billings, MT. When you get serious about buying some gear let me know and I'll be happy to pass some pointers your way//.
> Rick



Thanks! Lots of good info on all the equipment I would need to start trying to learn this. I have a friend here in town that has 15+ years of tree climbing/cutting that would be willing to take me out and show me how to use it. 

This is all just a business idea that I have been interested in now for a few years and I would have to save for up to 5 years before committing to try and make it work. Would like to start this business with an older chipper truck, a vermeer chipper, stumpgrinder, pole saws, 3-4 chainsaws and all the various other tools and ropes. I also want to pay cash for most of the equipment.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 14, 2012)

There you go again, getting the cart before the horse...........

Step 1. Learn how to climb safely in trees.

Step 2. Learn how to use a hand saw while climbing safely in trees.

Just those two steps could take 6 months to learn well. Not expert level, just well enough to move on to step three.

Climb for/with a good outfit for a while. Let them worry about all the heavy equipment, just focus on climbing gear and some light/medium rigging stuff. 

Rick


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 14, 2012)

This friend with the 15 years experience,....... does he always wear a helmet ? Tie in twice when using a chainsaw ? Not use spikes on prune jobs ? The 15 years doesn't mean he knows how to teach you the RIGHT way of doing treework. 

Let me ask in a different way....... have you ever seen a chainsaw operator with 'years of experience' that you keep well away from when he is cutting?
Rick


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## Workman (Feb 14, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> There you go again, getting the cart before the horse...........
> 
> Step 1. Learn how to climb safely in trees.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I hear ya, I like to dream big though, I have been thinking about this for awhile. BTW most of the trees I would ever be doing would be pines, I know that out East the oaks and maples would be out of my league since the grow very different, not straight up and down.

I have cut down thousands of various types of pines working for the FS for seven years, and am very good at cutting. Only when we would go to California or Arizona on fires would I have to cut down larger oaks from the ground, and it was very different than cutting pines.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 14, 2012)

Did you get the PM I sent you ?

No problem dreaming big. That is where motivation comes from! Here in western NC we have a mix that is about 40% conifers. Sometimes they can be bigger PITAs to work in because of all the sap.

Like I said earlier, using chainsaw in a tree is completely different. Sometimes folks with a lot of CS ground experience are too dangerous in trees because of bad habits that are minor on the ground and fatal in the air. You may have to unlearn some things you do on the ground to be safe in the tree.

Rick


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## RYNOMAGNUM (Feb 14, 2012)

I feel ya Workman..... I want to get in the business also....(CRAZY) lol . I have a friend that works for a tree service company that is trying to get me on with him. I want to ''learn the ropes'' literally... I have cut and dropped trees for years and pretty good at it,BUT, I have no climbing experience. I feel the best way for me to gain this is to apprentice into the game. I am willing to work for peanuts to acquire knowledge. I know we aren't going to get rich at it , but if we get by and make a decent living at it and enjoy our work its all worth it ! I wish you the best of luck on your journey . Be safe! , Ryan


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## Workman (Feb 14, 2012)

RYNOMAGNUM said:


> I feel ya Workman..... I want to get in the business also....(CRAZY) lol . I have a friend that works for a tree service company that is trying to get me on with him. I want to ''learn the ropes'' literally... I have cut and dropped trees for years and pretty good at it,BUT, I have no climbing experience. I feel the best way for me to gain this is to apprentice into the game. I am willing to work for peanuts to acquire knowledge. I know we aren't going to get rich at it , but if we get by and make a decent living at it and enjoy our work its all worth it ! I wish you the best of luck on your journey . Be safe! , Ryan



This is a job that I know I would enjoy, much more than what I do for the Feds in the summer! As far as my introduction to the tree business went, my boss started the company 25 years ago, and in all that time NEVER learned to climb. He didnt even really know much about trees, or pruning them. All he started with was a bucket truck, a couple of trailers, and a chipper. He picked up a lot of jobs over here in Jackson Wy, mostly very wealthy people that needed all kinds of removals done, and money isnt an issue to lots of people over here. One of his clients owns SHELL gas, and was paying him 3500 a day for a three man crew to remove downed trees from the property, and by property I mean forest, and this job lasted for almost three months last summer, 5-6 days a week. Just an example of one of his clients. Almost 100% of what he cuts out here are conifers, and that is what I am used to as well. My boss turned his operation into a very small yet successful company in 25 years, and working with him sure gave me ideas. The FS has already trained me for 7 fire seasons how to run a saw very well, I figure I might as well use this knowledge to try and start a business. Much more specific than a landscape company that I have wanted to open for awhile, because not to many people have a good understanding of operating chainsaws safely and efficiently, and that is a good first step in my opinion. Much more specific than running mowers, weed whackers, and hedgers! 

Good luck to you as well Ryan!


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## Jeffsaw (Feb 14, 2012)

VA Sawyer is so right when he says that using a chainsaw in a tree is totally different from using one on the ground. You can't run away from a bad cut when in a tree. I was very experienced with felling and saw work, etc. but as soon as I left the ground and went into a pine, spruce or poplar, it was like learning a brand new skill. There are so many more varibles and dangers and things to consider compared to felling a tree from the safety of the ground. It makes the job very interesting though. Best of luck with everything.


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## tree md (Feb 15, 2012)

RYNOMAGNUM said:


> I feel ya Workman..... I want to get in the business also....(CRAZY) lol . I have a friend that works for a tree service company that is trying to get me on with him. I want to ''learn the ropes'' literally... I have cut and dropped trees for years and pretty good at it,BUT, I have no climbing experience. I feel the best way for me to gain this is to apprentice into the game. I am willing to work for peanuts to acquire knowledge. I know we aren't going to get rich at it , but if we get by and make a decent living at it and enjoy our work its all worth it ! I wish you the best of luck on your journey . Be safe! , Ryan



Lots of competition in the larger services. When I started out I worked with an older guy who owned a mom and pop's service. He still climbed all the hairy stuff but was more than willing to set on the ground and tell me what to do in the tree most of the time. I finally got to the point that I was doing the hairy stuff after a couple of years. I worked for another mom and pop's service for a Summer then went to work for a larger service. I worked for 3 big outfits an a few years. It was great experience for me to see how different operations work and different ways to do things. It helps me to look at situations and problems from different angles now. If you cannot hire on with a larger outfit try to get on with a smaller service, with someone who is willing to take the time and teach you. Just make sure they're safe and do things the right way.

I worked for other services a good 5 years before ever tried going it on my own. And even then went back to work for another service in the slow season after that. Working your way up and learning the trade will put you light years ahead of a lot of these guys who have done a little firewood, maybe dropped a tree or two around the house or on a landscaping job, or even just worked a Summer for a tree service, who are obviously clueless and get laughed right off the boards around here.


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## RYNOMAGNUM (Feb 15, 2012)

tree md said:


> Lots of competition in the larger services. When I started out I worked with an older guy who owned a mom and pop's service. He still climbed all the hairy stuff but was more than willing to set on the ground and tell me what to do in the tree most of the time. I finally got to the point that I was doing the hairy stuff after a couple of years. I worked for another mom and pop's service for a Summer then went to work for a larger service. I worked for 3 big outfits an a few years. It was great experience for me to see how different operations work and different ways to do things. It helps me to look at situations and problems from different angles now. If you cannot hire on with a larger outfit try to get on with a smaller service, with someone who is willing to take the time and teach you. Just make sure they're safe and do things the right way.
> 
> I worked for other services a good 5 years before ever tried going it on my own. And even then went back to work for another service in the slow season after that. Working your way up and learning the trade will put you light years ahead of a lot of these guys who have done a little firewood, maybe dropped a tree or two around the house or on a landscaping job, or even just worked a Summer for a tree service, who are obviously clueless and get laughed right off the boards around here.


 Excellent advice Tree md! My buddy works for a smaller outfit I never even heard of around here. He says they keep him pretty busy. I told him to tell his boss I have some trees for a good customer that need done by a pro... I played it out right I guess cause his boss said he would like to meet me and have me working for him as soon as business picks up a bit.(around a month) This is my foot in the door! My buddy knows I am wanting to learn to climb also. I assume he had mentioned it to his boss. I am so excited! I love tree work and cant wait to take my skills to the next level. 
Thank you for your advice. I am a sponge for knowledge.I have worked with many different people over the coarse of years and I always learn something from everyone. (how to do things safely, or what not to do...) I don't want to be the guy who gets laughed off the boards.... I want to be that'' old guy'' one day that people seek knowledge from. 
Thanks you again for taking the time to give some good advice.
,Ryan


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## countrytrees (Apr 8, 2012)

no no you just need to learn how to fell trees so they jump over houses into the open field 5 miles away... HAHAHAHAHA but seriously there is plenty of books to learn how to climb such as tree climber's guide, the tree climber's companion, on rope, and a few others but nothing works like a trained arborist training you for a few weeks and then working with him for a couple years, which is what (I'm sure) every owner on this site such as myself have done.


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