# Tree workers union?



## Wildwil (Nov 17, 2017)

I have always thought that it would be cool if there was some kind of organization that gathers dedicated tree workers ( climbers and even ground men) who are certified by the ISA that need work. It could be organized by region so that people could find work easily in there area. It’s no secret that there is a wealth of bad workers in this industry and I personally as a contract Climber get sick of working with bad tree service owners and groundmen. It would also help set a standard for Tree work and a list to draw from for employers to guarantee that if they hire from the union or whatever you want to call it will be top of the line workers. It could also set a standard for contract climbers to get paid what they are worth in the industry and aid the process for contract climbers to do it right out of the gate. It has taken me a long time to get my prices and system down so that all the work that I do is legal and above board. Just a thought but it could very helpful in my area. I’m tired of druggies and slackers who don’t treat there job as a serious trade. Let me know what you all think about that


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## ATH (Nov 17, 2017)

I'm not sure there are enough contract climbers to make that useful - at least not around here. Most are employed rather than independent. Most markets, good climbers are in short supply. But that, obviously, changes drastically by location.

This statement is quite the oxymoron in many industries around here: "if they hire from the union it will be top of the line workers".

As an owner, I don't want to be stuck with somebody else's stupid rules (not talking about safety stuff or good practices...just the stupid games unions play). I want to do what fits the employees working for me. If 2 have the same title, but one is more productive than the other shouldn't he get paid more? If they are in a union, that is prohibited. If we need to reduce the number of employees, I'd want to keep the best which may or may not be the longest tenured. If they are in a union, that is prohibited.


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## Del_ (Nov 17, 2017)

Just so no to unions.


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## Jason Douglas (Nov 18, 2017)

It would require that tree work to be treated like plumbing and electric where one has to be licensed and gone through a long training and education process. While this would help get the bar off the damn ground I dont see it happening anytime soon.


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## Wildwil (Nov 18, 2017)

ATH said:


> I'm not sure there are enough contract climbers to make that useful - at least not around here. Most are employed rather than independent. Most markets, good climbers are in short supply. But that, obviously, changes drastically by location.
> 
> This statement is quite the oxymoron in many industries around here: "if they hire from the union it will be top of the line workers".
> 
> As an owner, I don't want to be stuck with somebody else's stupid rules (not talking about safety stuff or good practices...just the stupid games unions play). I want to do what fits the employees working for me. If 2 have the same title, but one is more productive than the other shouldn't he get paid more? If they are in a union, that is prohibited. If we need to reduce the number of employees, I'd want to keep the best which may or may not be the longest tenured. If they are in a union, that is prohibited.





ATH said:


> I'm not sure there are enough contract climbers to make that useful - at least not around here. Most are employed rather than independent. Most markets, good climbers are in short supply. But that, obviously, changes drastically by location.
> 
> This statement is quite the oxymoron in many industries around here: "if they hire from the union it will be top of the line workers".
> 
> As an owner, I don't want to be stuck with somebody else's stupid rules (not talking about safety stuff or good practices...just the stupid games unions play). I want to do what fits the employees working for me. If 2 have the same title, but one is more productive than the other shouldn't he get paid more? If they are in a union, that is prohibited. If we need to reduce the number of employees, I'd want to keep the best which may or may not be the longest tenured. If they are in a union, that is prohibited.





ATH said:


> I'm not sure there are enough contract climbers to make that useful - at least not around here. Most are employed rather than independent. Most markets, good climbers are in short supply. But that, obviously, changes drastically by location.
> 
> This statement is quite the oxymoron in many industries around here: "if they hire from the union it will be top of the line workers".
> 
> As an owner, I don't want to be stuck with somebody else's stupid rules (not talking about safety stuff or good practices...just the stupid games unions play). I want to do what fits the employees working for me. If 2 have the same title, but one is more productive than the other shouldn't he get paid more? If they are in a union, that is prohibited. If we need to reduce the number of employees, I'd want to keep the best which may or may not be the longest tenured. If they are in a union, that is prohibited.


ATH, that’s a good point. By no means am I promoting unions, it just seems like in my area, the greater Seattle area most of the climbers and grounds men are on drugs, lazy, and stupid. There are some good guys out there but not many. Also as a contract Climber I have not come across very many good employers either. I would just like to see more people take this industry a bit more serious.


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## Wildwil (Nov 18, 2017)

Yeah that would be better for everyone if there were a bit more regulations. I am a contract Climber with a liscence insurance l&i all the legal stuff. I enjoy it but I have worked with a lot of people that have no business being in this industry, it would be nice to eliminate all the people that just want to go make a million dollars with a chain saw hahaha. It would probly cut down on injury and deaths to.


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## ATH (Nov 18, 2017)

Wildwil said:


> ..... I would just like to see more people take this industry a bit more serious.


Agree 100% with that.

But I'm not sure MORE regulations is the answer. Current regulations are rarely enforced against hacks. Who is going to enforce the new ones?


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## tree MDS (Nov 18, 2017)

Wildwil said:


> Yeah that would be better for everyone if there were a bit more regulations. I am a contract Climber with a liscence insurance l&i all the legal stuff. I enjoy it but I have worked with a lot of people that have no business being in this industry, it would be nice to eliminate all the people that just want to go make a million dollars with a chain saw hahaha. It would probly cut down on injury and deaths to.



Hey, there are always gonna be bottom-feeders. I wouldn't get too carried away with yourself, I mean that's really all you're doing. Just saying.


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## thetoolnut (Nov 19, 2017)

tree MDS said:


> Hey, there are always gonna be bottom-feeders. I wouldn't get too carried away with yourself, I mean that's really all you're doing. Just saying.


Regs are great but the key is enforcement, tree work is highly regulated but enforcement of those regs is almost non existent. 

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## Del_ (Nov 19, 2017)

The need is not for more regulations. The need is for humans that have even the slightest clue about the natural beauty of trees, their importance to humanity and their importance to life on this planet. The need is for awareness.


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## Groundman One (Nov 19, 2017)

A union? For climbers?



*A hundred-million trees cry out in joy and relief, knowing that never a branch will be cut, nor a spur ever jammed into bark, ever again.*


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 21, 2017)

In this province, all utility arborists doing line clearance work are unionized under the IBEW (Electrical Workers). I don't know how this came about, but probably a concession given to the linemen.

This is a pro-union province and a company couldn't stop their workers from certifying (apart from shutting down). Once certified, you would have to negotiate the terms of the contract, which would include pay and layoff procedures. The minimums are the current labour code. If the union can negotiate better, then it's to the benefit of the workers. 

I've always been told, you get the union (ie militancy) that you deserve, depending on how you treat your people.


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## Skeans (Nov 21, 2017)

Wildwil said:


> ATH, that’s a good point. By no means am I promoting unions, it just seems like in my area, the greater Seattle area most of the climbers and grounds men are on drugs, lazy, and stupid. There are some good guys out there but not many. Also as a contract Climber I have not come across very many good employers either. I would just like to see more people take this industry a bit more serious.


How many of the climbers have said screw it and gone to work in the woods falling timber or running bunchers?

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## Luckysaturn (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm IBEW doing line Clearance. Because of this I earn a fair wage and amazing benefits. My wife and I considered moving to a non union spot in indiana. There line foreman made less than a union groundman out here  Most of the locals don't consider us a skilled trade. So if you hop companies your grade could drop down until you prove yourself. But it makes it easier to get hired on if your fired leave or laid off.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 9, 2018)

Wildwil said:


> ATH, that’s a good point. By no means am I promoting unions, it just seems like in my area, the greater Seattle area most of the climbers and grounds men are on drugs, lazy, and stupid. There are some good guys out there but not many. Also as a contract Climber I have not come across very many good employers either. I would just like to see more people take this industry a bit more serious.



Labor in general in the greater Seattle area if full of drunks, addicts, the lazy and stupider... not just tree services, anyone not gainfully employed in western warshington is a ****ing moron or not looking for work.

Besides that, I don't think a union is the way to go, perhaps a Guild? much like ye ole days, to work in the business you need to be a member of the guild, to be a member of the guild you need to have a few basics met and passed. Just simple qualifications, but if it was large enough, that the general public understood it or at the very least new it was there, then those that where members of the Guild would likely get preferred work, where as those that where not, would be forced to charge much much less then is feasible to stay in business. 

Problem with a Guild is making it big enough to have clout, not something easily accomplished.

Each member of said Guild would also have the benefit of getting guaranteed work in there local area, through said guild... Clients would contact the guild, and the guild would dispatch whoever was closest etc... 

Few small dues, and you have operating expenses covered for said dispatch, Guild members could combine buying power and get discounts on insurance, both health and liability...

But still remain independent, small businesses beholden to none but uncle Sam and whoever you owe money to...

Now I incourage folks at aspelund to go union... maybe then they can get some proper training, or finally dry up and save the rest of us the embarrassment.


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## Luckysaturn (Feb 10, 2018)

If we start a guild can I climb in my kilt? Lol some of Asplundh is union.. and I don't see them drying up being the largest tree company in the USA.... At least there family owned... No option of them just saying..


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 10, 2018)

Guild = ISA

Seattle it so full of tech workers, Boeing workers etc who make considerably more than tree services pay, that's why tree services are left with the dregs. Can't compete for labour. We have the same problems in Vancouver.


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## thetoolnut (Feb 10, 2018)

BC WetCoast said:


> Guild = ISA
> 
> Seattle it so full of tech workers, Boeing workers etc who make considerably more than tree services pay, that's why tree services are left with the dregs. Can't compete for labour. We have the same problems in Vancouver.



That's the way the Western World is going sadly, anyone that earns a living with a trade (it's high time tree surgery was recognised as a trade) no matter how skilled is expected to work for buttons. But if your a techie with a collage degree then the sky's the limit. Most of the best people are draw to these high powered jobs and as a result the trades are left with the dregs of society. In the case of tree work it's very hard to get good ground staff. Not in all cases of course. 

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## Skeans (Feb 10, 2018)

Luckysaturn said:


> If we start a guild can I climb in my kilt? Lol some of Asplundh is union.. and I don't see them drying up being the largest tree company in the USA.... At least there family owned... No option of them just saying..


There's a few local puds in NW Oregon SW Washington that have got rid of Asplundh they're starting to come a part after some issues.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 10, 2018)

thetoolnut said:


> That's the way the Western World is going sadly, anyone that earns a living with a trade (it's high time tree surgery was recognised as a trade) no matter how skilled is expected to work for buttons. But if your a techie with a collage degree then the sky's the limit. Most of the best people are draw to these high powered jobs and as a result the trades are left with the dregs of society. In the case of tree work it's very hard to get good ground staff. Not in all cases of course.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G389F using Tapatalk



Labor should not be looked on as the dregs, logging and tree service takes a specialized skill set and a brain, its not just a matter of me big dummy lift heavy things. Meanwhile the "educated techset" are finding out their college degree isn't a golden ticket to 6 figure salaries. A lot of people I know with degrees are now working in the skilled trade end of things, because their degree is pretty much worthless.



Skeans said:


> There's a few local puds in NW Oregon SW Washington that have got rid of Asplundh they're starting to come a part after some issues.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Aspelund is still around here, but I've noticed they are pretty much just doing residential work, or for smallish cities, Most have switched to Davey Tree, or just doing it themselves.

Couple years ago they where contracted to trim along the power lines out by my place... they cut the wrong side of the road, leaving the powerlines choked in branches... hilarious if you didn't have to worry about losing power for 3 more years. PUD came through and fixed it eventually


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## thetoolnut (Feb 10, 2018)

You missed my point slightly i feel, i don't see labour whether skilled, semi-skilled or unskilled as the dregs. Far from it i can assure you, and i agree with you on degrees. Everyone has one now, even the dogs in the street so there value has deminished hugely. I still maintain though that our industry and others like it has a problem with attracting the best people. Our schools have become so one dimensional in relation to getting kids ready for work and real life. For example during my last Year in school we had access to a career guidance teacher. All she wanted to speak about was collage and becoming a techie or an academic because that was how she was conditioned to think herself. It would never have entered her mind to say "anyone in the class interested in becoming a tree surgeon?" Oh! What's that? Tell me more please. 

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## jomoco (Feb 10, 2018)

I've played with the idea of forming a treeworkers Union in conjunction with a Corp in possession of patented equipment rights, giving that Corp exclusivity running the most modern tree equipment, for twenty years.

That TreeMek's an excellent example!

Mechanization hand in hand with modernization!

Jomoco


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