# I need some help here guys



## Pilsnaman (Jun 1, 2007)

I am banking on the fact that at least some of those here are gear heads. My clutch went out on my '95 S10 pickup, 4.3L 4x4, 5 speed, 162K miles. I had it replaced at a shop because the 4x4 part makes it a bear to do. They replaced the clutch plate, pressure plate, flywheel (it was warped), throwout bearing, pilot bearing, and slave cylinder. Picked up the truck yesterday and while driving it home I noticed a lot of clutch chatter when starting from a stop. It gitters and vibrates all over the place. In addition, the clutch peddle must be pushed all the way to the floor for full disengagement. I already called the shop and it is going back on Tuesday but I would like to have some idea of what could be causing this stuff. Any thoughts would be most appreciated.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 1, 2007)

Sorry that was posted twice.


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## Treeman587 (Jun 1, 2007)

It is not aligned properly or possibly not torqued correctly


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## TDunk (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm not sure how they could have "not" aligned it properly, but they definetly could have left the fly wheel bolts loose (IE didn't use lock-tite) I have had one clutch in my whole life chatter, and that's because it was a re-man, I've never sold one since. I'd definetly check on wether it was new or re-man. As for the low pedal, two things come to mind. Either they didn't get all the air out of the system, or (depending on how reputable the shop is) they turned the flywheel and took to much material off, thus the low pedal (seen that before too) On most Chevy 5-speeds there's a rubber plug at the bottom of the tranny, you'd be able to tell real easy if it is a new flywheel or not. good luck and let us know.


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## Peacock (Jun 4, 2007)

Nothing to add that TDunk hasn't already stated! 

Other than....some of the GM hydraulic systems are a bear to bleed. My dad has a '95 4.3TBI 5speed 2wd. His is always a pain to get the air out of. Usually just drive it a day or two until it bleeds itself.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 4, 2007)

The truck is going back to the shop tomorrow morning. It will be interesting to see how these guys handle things and I will let you know what goes down.


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## TDunk (Jun 5, 2007)

Peacock said:


> Nothing to add that TDunk hasn't already stated!
> 
> Other than....some of the GM hydraulic systems are a bear to bleed. My dad has a '95 4.3TBI 5speed 2wd. His is always a pain to get the air out of. Usually just drive it a day or two until it bleeds itself.



+1....... Chevy's and fords ar ethe worst clutches to bleed. For some reason i don't have that much trouble with dodges, but then i don't do many dodges either.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 5, 2007)

the bleed hole on chevy's and most other cars used to have a nozzle to attach a vacuum pump to for bleeding. my truck just has a little hole on the side of the slave cylinder so vacuum pumps can no longer be used, its ridiculous. I dropped the truck off at the shop this morning and after about 2 seconds of seeing the chatter they said "that isn't right." Guy thinks either the flywheel or pressure plate were defective so at least the admit it is probably going to take a full re-do.


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## tawilson (Jun 5, 2007)

I had an S10 and I had to back the truck up on ramps to get the bleeder on the clutch high enough to get the air out.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 5, 2007)

*Now I am really going to lose it!!!!*

Just heard from the shop this afternoon. They told me after extensive test driving that they don't feel it is the clutch causing vibrations but the drive train, but they don't know where. This seems strange to me as the only time any vibration is felt is when engaging the clutch from a stop, no matter if in 1st, 2nd, or reverse. All other times things are smooth as silk. Is it really possible something in the drive train is causing these problems or does this have to be the clutch? Also, before anyone touched my truck I never had a vibration. The shop is telling me they will redo the clutch and if it is fixed I pay nothing but if things still chatter then I pay the labor for the redo. Yeah thats a full day's work and around here things are about $90/hour.


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## ButcherGY54 (Jun 5, 2007)

I'm an Automechanic for a living. The most likely cause of your chatter is the mechanic doing your clutch could not get the trans input shaft to go through the clutch plate the right way and used the bellhousing bolts to draw the trans to the motor. Thus forcing the input shaft against the clutch plate and damaging it. Chatter can also be caused by the flywheel and/or the pressure plate.

Is this a local shop or a big chain? If it is a big chain call the customer service number and explain things to them. 

If you had no chatter before the job, you should not have any after.

Hope this helps.

David


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 5, 2007)

Another thought...........with that many miles the input bearing on the transmission might be bad. I had the same thing on a '79 f-150. Turned out to be the input bearing!!!


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## ASEMASTER (Jun 5, 2007)

*I will agree*

the clutch is the problem , but no telling what they did to it when installing it , as for the low peddle I'd say they turned the flywheel and didn't shim it out from the crank ( this may be the reason for the chatter if they turned it on a brake lathe and it was rought it would give you a harsh engagement or chatter.)


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 5, 2007)

Is there any possibility that the clutch will smooth out after a few hundred miles, like the surfaces need to mate up, or is this simply that something is wrong and needs to be rebuilt? Thanks for the help.


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## 2000ssm6 (Jun 5, 2007)

I think you have a problem with the job that was preformed. Are all of the tranny/trans case mounts tight. Those hydros are a pain to bleed too...

I also agree with asetech, we send our flywheels out to a known good machine shop so they are cut right...


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## sawinredneck (Jun 5, 2007)

tawilson said:


> I had an S10 and I had to back the truck up on ramps to get the bleeder on the clutch high enough to get the air out.



Another twist I got edumecated on. If you can't get the system to bleed, MOST of the master cylinders can be mounted upside down (make sure the cap is tight) bleed the system, then remount properly.

I did a clutch on a late "90's S-10 4.3 ONCE, next time it will cost $3000!!! That was the biggest bear I have ever worked on!!! Buddy of mine took it on as a side job, he's a wrench, called me three days latter, hadn't even gotten it out yet!!!! (ASE mastertech, VERY good wrench!!!) They SUCK THAT BAD!!!!!!!


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2007)

ButcherGY54 said:


> I'm an Automechanic for a living. The most likely cause of your chatter is the mechanic doing your clutch could not get the trans input shaft to go through the clutch plate the right way and used the bellhousing bolts to draw the trans to the motor. Thus forcing the input shaft against the clutch plate and damaging it. Chatter can also be caused by the flywheel and/or the pressure plate.
> 
> Is this a local shop or a big chain? If it is a big chain call the customer service number and explain things to them.
> 
> ...


Yes this can happen easy to a clutch disk also the disk could have been put in backwards as most disks have a front which goes toward engine. I like to use dowels to stab tranny to help line up by cutting heads
off long bolts installing in motor then sliding tranny over them and easing to block. Or putting bellhousing on first and then putting tranny in place


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## hornett22 (Jun 6, 2007)

*i will not do a clucth job anymore unless..........*

the customer is willing to pay for resurface at a machine shop.too many mechanics use an angle grinder with a 3M cookie to clean the surface,this is BS.i also always torque the bolts to factory specs.i have $1000 in torque wrenches so i don't have comebacks.

watch out for cheap clutches from the chain stores,even NAPA.most clutch kits are made in third world countries now.

i learned a neat trick from an airplane mechanic.fill an oil squirter with brake fluid and reverse bleed it.push the fluid from the bleeder valve back to the master cylinder.this gets fluid through the high and low bends in the line.once you have sufficient fluid through the system you can bleed it normally.

sorry but those plastic internal slave cylinders are gay.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 6, 2007)

I have an external slave cylinder on my S10. The bleeding is not my big problem right now because of the chattering going on, thats what I need help with. Could the clutch chatter just go away after 500 miles or so because everything needs to break in or does this thing just have to be redone. I Just don't want to have them redo the work and have it still chatter, then I have to pay for the labor or the redo. As for the flywheel, they didn't resurface my old one, instead they purchased a remanufactured one (I am sure with the idea that it will be machined by a machine shop). Thank you for all the help so far.


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## TDunk (Jun 6, 2007)

There shouldn't be any "break-in" time on a clutch. Once it's in it should be smooth. The chattering i'd put money on either the clutch is defective, or they got a running start and tried to ram it in and missed. The vibration would almost have to be the flywheel, but i have to admit that i've never heard of a remanufactured flywheel. I'd bet that either the shop got a defective part, or they scewed something up when they installed it. I think once they re-do the work you'll be all set to go.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 8, 2007)

Just to give an update, I just heard from the shop. Another new clutch has been installed (thats #3 over this whole ordeal but who's counting) and it is "smooth as silk." Seems it was the clutch, despite what his "experienced technician" says. You know the biggest thing he should be thinking right now is "well, I will never see him again"


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 10, 2007)

To cap everything off... Went to pick up the truck and sure enough it works great now. Go to find out the shop put in an after market clutch initially but never compared it to the original one (still in the bed from the 1st shop). When they pulled the after market one out they had a crazy idea "lets see how it compares to the original...Oh damn, that doesn't look right!!!" This time around they used AC Delco parts. Now wanted me to pay another $198 because the AC Delco clutch kit cost more then the after market but didn't tell me this until I was picking the truck up. I was not too happy about this and didn't want to pay it, having been told I wouldn't pay anything if it worked properly. Shop gave me an ultimatum, either I accept $98 of the charge or they re-do the work AGAIN and put the old parts back in. I couldn't believe they would suck up 7 hours of labor to make a point of $98. Everyone in Northern Virginia...DON'T GO TO JOYCE MOTORS IN ARLINGTON, VA!!!!!!!


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## 2000ssm6 (Jun 10, 2007)

Most of the time it pays to use oem parts...looking up the parts by a vin number really helps too.

Glad to hear you are back on the road


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## MNTAINGAL23 (Jun 10, 2007)

Seems like they should have called you to tell you about the extra charge. Did you get it in writting that they would fix it? If you did seems like you could take them to small claims court. Kinda petty for that but it is the principal of the whole deal. It was on them to fix it and if they chose to use better parts they should pay for it. They said they would fix it at no extra cost to you.
I would call the better business bureau also and let them know.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 10, 2007)

Yeah the BBB may get a ring after all I went through. Just goes to show you how easy it is for a shop to take advantage of someone.


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## TDunk (Jun 11, 2007)

At our shop, if anything extra pops up i give the customer a call asap to see what they want us to do. The sooner i call them, the quicker its done and the less time my techs. are standing around. You can defenetly take them to court, but for $98, i'm not sure if it would be worth your while. At my shop, i'd have told you we put in an OEM clutch, ...it was more money but we'll eat the cost for all the trouble. Then chances are i'd have a repeat customer. Glad to here the truck is fixed though.


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## Pilsnaman (Jun 11, 2007)

Probably the second biggest thing in all this, first being the money I lost, is if a car of mine or a family member need repair and I don't have time/am not around to do it I don't know where to go. Here's a question for you mechanics out here. How does an average person fined a honest shop? Feels like I might as well be throwing dart boards at the phone book to decide.


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## TDunk (Jun 11, 2007)

Word-of-mouth is how we get most of our buisness. The nearest shop is 6 miles away and thats just a Goodyear Tire dealer. We do alot of work for the U.S Gov. (forestry), National Fuel,And UPS's heavy work. Alot of the people who work for those companies bring there personal vehicals to us, and they tell people etc....... I'd say the best thing to do is talk to people, go to your saw shop, hardware store, gas station and ask if they know any reputable garages.


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