# Safest Method of Entry



## treeseer (Dec 11, 2006)

Everyone has their fave--footlocking, ascenders, airhumping aka bodythrusting, spurs--but what is the overall safest? Assume for each that the climber is sober and using the right equipment, knots, experience, etc.


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## John464 (Dec 11, 2006)

you forgot the safest of all - aerial lift


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## beowulf343 (Dec 11, 2006)

It all depends on which method you were taught, which method you use the most, and which is most comfortable for you. I've spent alot of times on spikes with no serious problems. But get me on a ladder and bad things seem to happen. Yet people keep trying to tell me ladders are safer.


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## begleytree (Dec 11, 2006)

I saw Maas looking at this thread, it had to be him that voted trampoline!!! 

-Ralph


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## Jim1NZ (Dec 12, 2006)

Well if your talking safety, all are safe if executed correctly. In a rescue situation, a climber that had been body-thrusting would be the easiest to bring down...


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 12, 2006)

*now for the why*

I vote bodythrusting as being the safest because there is no need to switch over to decend. You can be tied in from groung to top and back to the ground without ever having to change hardwear or climbing systems. Now as far as the fastest..............................................


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## Blinky (Dec 12, 2006)

I voted ascenders because that's what I know best, but gaffs are safe too once you have the hang of'em, definitely a lot quicker getting off the ground... I'm not getting into many trees where I can use the gaffs though. Ladders are efficient for entry but I never feel safe on a ladder... same goes for buckets. Cranes are great... but I don't have crane.


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## 046 (Dec 12, 2006)

voted for body thrusting. but need to check out pantins...

ladders are the most dangerous! 
one can get too complacent climbing up ladder not roped in.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 12, 2006)

046 said:


> voted for body thrusting. but need to check out pantins...



get one they rock!!!! I use one and a one handed ascender on the downrope, makes things very easy. I'd still consider this method bodythrusting


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 12, 2006)

begleytree said:


> I saw Maas looking at this thread, it had to be him that voted trampoline!!!
> 
> -Ralph


No, I didn't vote because i don't think the poll makes much sense.
The safest way, is to get a rope up in the tree, and pull on the tree with two or three guys to make sure its a safe tree, and then to ascend in a way that you are belayed by a second person.
Once you've tested the tree, and your tied in, what method you use to to get up, whether it's spiking, footlocking, climbing a ladder, or body thrusting, doesn't matter.
If you just throw a lanyard around the tree and start spiking, you don't have the advantage of testing the tree before entry, you have the possibility of sliding down the spar if you spike out, and if you need areal rescue, that will be quite a bit harder too.
If you just lean a ladder on a spar and climb, that's dangerous because the ladder could tip off the spar, or the climber could fall off the ladder. That said I free climb ladders all the time, if the top of the ladder is wedged between branches so it can fall, otherwise I throw a rope up first then climb it.
Ladders are the entry method of my choice because 9 out 0f 10 trees I climb have canopies that start at or below 30 feet, so it's the easiest and I feel just as safe, or safer than spiking, which I can't do if it's a trim anyway.
If a ladder is going to be a problem for whatever reason, I climb a single rope with a backed up handled ascender and a foot ascender. Then abandon the SRT and climb my normal system. This has the advantage of easy access for a rescuer, should it ever be needed.


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## 046 (Dec 12, 2006)

ladder may be the easiest, but certainly not the safest. 
fall if any are limited by height of ladder, so probably would not life threatening.
too easy to climb up ladder, then rope in. it's that minute of exposure that I prefer to avoid. 

if I use a ladder, I'll rope in, then climb ladder. 



Mike Maas said:


> If you just lean a ladder on a spar and climb, that's dangerous because the ladder could tip off the spar, or the climber could fall off the ladder. That said I free climb ladders all the time, if the top of the ladder is wedged between branches so it can fall, otherwise I throw a rope up first then climb it.
> Ladders are the entry method of my choice because 9 out 0f 10 trees I climb have canopies that start at or below 30 feet, so it's the easiest and I feel just as safe, or safer than spiking, which I can't do if it's a trim anyway.
> If a ladder is going to be a problem for whatever reason, I climb a single rope with a backed up handled ascender and a foot ascender. Then abandon the SRT and climb my normal system. This has the advantage of easy access for a rescuer, should it ever be needed.


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 12, 2006)

ladders are tools of the :censored: devil. 

i climb both Spur and Spurless (DRT or SRT)


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 12, 2006)

Ladders are tools. If you don't know how to properly use any tool it can be dangerous. For those of you doing residential tree work, how do you get on the roof to clean up after a big removal? SRT? Spike? LOL!
Seriously, if you can't safely climb a secured ladder (the top wedged between two limbs and the base held by a groundman), then you have no business climbing around in a tree.
ANSI has been batting around the idea of having us tied in before climbing a ladder for tree work. I don't know, maybe it's already a standard.


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 12, 2006)

oh dont get me wrong, I can use a ladder to get to a roof, or to reach the shop lights, but i just dont like using ladders. Probably stems from being 40 feet up a ladder (aluminum) several years and having the ladder collapse like tinfoil.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 12, 2006)

Scary, I hope you didn't get seriously injured.
What caused the failure?


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## jmack (Dec 12, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> I vote bodythrusting as being the safest because there is no need to switch over to decend. You can be tied in from groung to top and back to the ground without ever having to change hardwear or climbing systems. Now as far as the fastest..............................................


 agreed


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## begleytree (Dec 12, 2006)

Guy, just curious, but why is crane an option here. everyone knows it's illegal to ride the hook, thereby, crane is a moot point. you can't do it anyway.
or is this your way of finding out how many still do ride hooks?
-Ralph


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## Climb020 (Dec 12, 2006)

Treeseer I get your point of the post but lets think all of these options through. Everyone has their opinion but let's try and use some common sense. For reasoning purposes lets assume that by entry you mean to get to the top for the ideal TIP to work the tree.

In order for it to be the safest way to enter the tree, you also have to have a fast way of exit if an emerency would arise. Now that alone would take off footlocking and ascenders.

Taking in that trees can get pretty big both the ladder and the trampoline won't get you to the top. As well if you are not tied in using a ladder you could fall right off of it.

So now we are down to bodythrusting, spurs and crane.

Bodythrusting does sound like a good one being you can easily enter and exit the tree at any time but you could have TIP so that wouldn't be so great.

Spurs is only a half soluction first of all. That cannot be used all the time. As well anytime you are using a sharp tool the chance of something getting cut/stabbed is a possibility. As well even the most expierenced guys can gaff out which could as well lead to injury.

Last is the crane. If you use a false crotch with you rope on the ball you can easily exit the tree. The crane will allow you to inspect the tree from the top, after inspecting from the ground. This is the only option that puts you in a postition where you won;t be entering the tree from the bottom, where hangers could come loose and hit you. Only accident that could happen would be crane failure or tip over but if you go by treeseers second line in his post this would not happen with proper equipement and operaters.


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## Climb020 (Dec 12, 2006)

begleytree said:


> Guy, just curious, but why is crane an option here. everyone knows it's illegal to ride the hook, thereby, crane is a moot point. you can't do it anyway.
> or is this your way of finding out how many still do ride hooks?
> -Ralph


He didn't say the option had to be legal just what the safest was.


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## treeseer (Dec 12, 2006)

Well dang. I started this poll cuz clearance stated spurs were safest, while I am sure they are not. I've heard tales of folks flipping down after kicking out, and I've lost some hide off of chin and forearms that way. but spurs rank #1 among you all so far  , likely because that's what you know best from removal work; nothing wrong with that. Maybe I should have added "for pruning", but so be it.

I agree with OTG also, tho I've switched to ascenders as the default method due to shoulder pain. Maas as usual was on the mark too. 
re ladders, in the 2000 ANSI, 9.1.2 allows for ladder climbing without being tied in. The buzz has it that certain radical elements want to make tie-in mandatory as soon as your feet are on the first rung  , but I don't know if that flew into the most recent version. 

That's how it is in the UK, our role model for overregulation.:monkey:


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## Climb020 (Dec 12, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Well dang. I started this poll cuz clearance stated spurs were safest, while I am sure they are not.


Yes I had posted some very crude thoughts but they were removed and I was warned, but I do agree with you.


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## clearance (Dec 12, 2006)

I am not going to gloat, each to his/her own, whatever makes you happy I guess. I forgive you Climb 020, its all good.


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## woodchux (Dec 12, 2006)

I voted for the crane. But if you lump bodythrust, footlock, and ascenders into one catagory vs spurs, Then the poll would be a dead heat. Spurs have been trailing.


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## (WLL) (Dec 12, 2006)

*laws are ment 2 b broken*

but i always follow the rules. if i cant ride the ball in not using the crane. thats just another stupid law so the man can pinch more money out of the working class people. the rich get richer and the poor keep working o and by the way i think the poll on the sub stinks but my vote was a crane. i never prune w spikes. is tree work safe? why isnt throw ball on the list


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## 046 (Dec 12, 2006)

treeco, mikeM, you both are right of course. anyone that can't use a ladder properly has no business climbing a tree. 

I use one all the time, but rope up before climbing. strange I'll climb a ladder to a roof without a thought. 

guess it's from being ingrained not to be up in a tree without being roped in.


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## (WLL) (Dec 12, 2006)

*tie on another ladder*

:jawdrop:


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## Dadatwins (Dec 12, 2006)

I voted bodythrust also simply to satisfy 'the safest method' I am assuming this means secured bodythrust, pull- up - slide knot-pull-up slide ect. At least with this method if you let go of the rope or fall you are still tied in.
Spikes can be safe but it depends on if the user is secured to the tree and how. Simply throwing a flipline around the tree and gaffing up does not satify the 'safest method test.' I also use ladders frequently, but I have a heavy duty fiberglass model, much more stable than the cheap aluminium yard sale special. Never tried a trampoline, I will wait to see a demo on that method first.


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## begleytree (Dec 12, 2006)

046 said:


> treeco, mikeM, you both are right of course. anyone that can't use a ladder properly has no business climbing a tree.



I feel the same way about spurs. they are a part of our equipment, and if a climber can't strap on a set and get his butt up a tree, he's missing some training somewhere, the same if he can't tie his friction hitch, or can't tie a running bowline, or properly use a ladder.
If you're kicking out, or hanging upside down, trust me, it isn't the spur's fault. it's either the operator, or the operator's lack of proper maintenance.

I like your little insinuation, Guy, that if someone is proficient on spurs,they are in the low end of the pool, haphazardly committing arboricide judiciously killing innocent trees for penance. You asked for the safest way. imo, that is spurs. spurs are not the only way up, but how is it any less safe? On spurs, you are always tied in as well. I know guys who use 2 buckstraps, I, otoh, prefer to use my rope and lanyard. JMNSHO also.
-Ralph


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 12, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> Scary, I hope you didn't get seriously injured.
> What caused the failure?



cheap import ladder, poorly made (thin rivets) and too light for intended use. (load rating and height were mislabelled).


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 12, 2006)

and as for this diatribe that many are going on about *(if you cant use a ladder you have no busines being in a tree)*, all i have to say to that is:

WHAT A PILE OF THE PROVERBIAL STEAMING BOVINE WASTE MATTER! 


i guess i have no business being in a tree - I dont even own a ladder :bang: 

i guess i have no business being in a tree - I dont use a ladder :bang: 

I guess I have no business being in a tree - I choose not to use a ladder :bang: 

I guess i have no business being in a tree - I dont need a ladder :bang: 

I guess i have no business being in a tree, yup, no ladder here :bang: 

well, i best gather up all my equipment, throw it out on the curb, because after all, i dont own or use a ladder, so my skills as a chainsaw operator & tree climber are no longer valid, BECAUSE I DONT OWN OR USE A :censored: LADDER :bang: 

see above mention about bull:censored: 

my new motto will be _"This is my ladder! There are many like it, but this one is mine! My ladder is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, like I master my life. Without me, my ladder is useless. Without my ladder, I am useless. I must set up my ladder true! I must climb higher than my enemy who is trying to outperform me. I must use my ladder like him before he outbids me! I will! Before God, I swear this creed...My ladder and myself are defenders of my skills. We are the masters of our trade. We are the saviors of my life! So be it! Until there is no enemy! But Peace! And that!
Drill Instructor: (Gives command to pull down ladder) AT EASE! Good night, Ladies! "_

SIR YES SIR!


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 12, 2006)

I agree that if you climb trees safe ladder practices should be the norm. Personally I hate ladders..........take me 60ft. in a tree any day over 20 ft. on a ladder stringing xmas lights or cleaning gutters!!!


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## treeseer (Dec 12, 2006)

begleytree said:


> I like your little insinuation, Guy, that if someone is proficient on spurs,they are in the low end of the pool,


Ralph, the insinuation was so little, it was nonexistent. I did not imply that at all. :taped: I agree they are essential tools for an arborist to master. Emergencies sometimes require that they be used. I carry a set with me all the time. Fiberglass and velcro, very comfy.

"if you lump bodythrust, footlock, and ascenders into one catagory vs spurs, Then the poll would be a dead heat. Spurs have been trailing."

Good point, woodchux. 
And one other thing is for certain--spurs are the hardest on most human bodies (and all trees). Many climbers get bad hips and lower back from them. You can glide on ascenders 20 years after the average age a climber limited to spiking has to quit, no longer able to climb and tragically limited in other hip movements too. 

As clearance says, "each to his/her own, whatever makes you happy"


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## clearance (Dec 12, 2006)

Regarding spurs being hard on people, hmmm, and this rope humping way isn't? Hasn't been? C'mon. Ladders, never used one on a tree, ever, thousands of trees later. I have used a variety of ladders in construction. I guess the difference being is that in construction ladders are usually placed against something solid. They are usually placed on something solid as well, ie. concrete, level wood floors. As opposed to being placed against something that can sway in the wind, move from the force of a man climbing the ladder, might be slimy and slippery. And placed on something often less than solid, uneven ground, snow, mud, etc. Many old guys still climbing, on spurs, that started before spurs became the bogeyman. Yes spurs are harder on the tree, no doubt. But my first concern is never the tree.


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 12, 2006)

Certainly...spikes aren't the safest for the trees for cryin' out loud!

The best way to answer this question is to define the terms a bit better. There are many aspects of safety when ascending. 

In the long term, all things considered, using some form of SRT is the safest option. This would especially be true if the SRT system had a belay/lowering system built in like the one I designed.

When I posted my vote I found the results very insightful...1/3 of the replies voed spiking as the safest. Is there any bias there?


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## ddhlakebound (Dec 12, 2006)

When it comes to the safest method, I think a combination of body thrust and spikes is as safe as you can get. 

Installing a rope in the tree, (as if you were going to body thrust) and strapping on the spikes and flipline, allows the climber to stand and climb on the spikes, and (w/ slack tender) keep his climbing line tight, so even if he does gaff out, he could only slip a foot or two. Also allows instant descent. In my opinion this is the safest. Downsides, slower, only available on removals, and takes more prep time than just spiking up, or just roping the tree and body thrusting. 

I think most people (who use both methods) feel comfortable and safe using either method alone, but the combination allows nearly total safety unless the tree were to fail. 

I've used ladders 2 times to enter trees. Maybe .5-1% of the time, using the ladder seems the most efficient way to enter the tree, just depends on the circumstances. I really would prefer to NOT be on a ladder, even though I feel fairly safe and comfortable on one. Climbing up one is very fast and easy, its the transition from ladder to tree that I don't like. Starting out tied in would cure that I'm sure, but packing around a big ole ladder is a chore I don't need.


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## beowulf343 (Dec 12, 2006)

clearance said:


> I have used a variety of ladders in construction. I guess the difference being is that in construction ladders are usually placed against something solid. They are usually placed on something solid as well, ie. concrete, level wood floors. As opposed to being placed against something that can sway in the wind, move from the force of a man climbing the ladder, might be slimy and slippery. And placed on something often less than solid, uneven ground, snow, mud, etc.


Ha, ha. Might as well give it up clearance. I tried arguing this point on another thread awhile back. Was basically told that anyone who won't climb a ladder should not be climbing trees and that a ladder was perfectly safe as long as someone was steadying it. My problem with this is that I weigh alot more than my groundies. So if my 275 lbs is 25 feet up on a ladder and it starts to slip, can my 140 lb groundie hold it? Things could get ugly-like me squashing a groundie.:biggrinbounce2:


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## rebelman (Dec 12, 2006)

Good thread, good posts. Throwball and ladder must be safe as any. Ladders have "dogs" that dig into dirt, ice, whatever, and hold much better than a smooth floor. If a tree is swaying so much that the trunk at thirty two or forty feet is moving that much, I don't think any method is safe. I have used ladders on close to fifteen thousand trees, and I've never even had a close call. Many of my jobs are all of the trees at a particular residence, so lugging it is not that bad. I provide quality residential work here in a rural area, when nine out of ten residential tree services do not have ladders, and do substandard work.


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## woodchux (Dec 12, 2006)

I frequently use a ladder for access, never had an incident while entering the tree. I have had a couple of close calls trying to trim limbs while still standing on the ladder. Now i only use one for entering the tree.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 13, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I would be willing to bet spike access is getting so many votes because of the fact that many of these climbers spike climb even when just pruning a tree.


That's a safe bet.


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## JohN Dee (Dec 13, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> Ladders are tools. If you don't know how to properly use any tool it can be dangerous. For those of you doing residential tree work, how do you get on the roof to clean up after a big removal? SRT? Spike? LOL!



Lol Mike you crack me up,

Myself I use a combination of nearly all mentioned - They all have their place in where they need to be used. 

I use a ladder for about 95% of my palm cleans while harnessed and tied into the palm.
I don't really body thrust for tree trims but trunk walk as it takes less energy.
I also use ascenders in some situations where the customer changes their mind and i've gotta go back up and finish it to use even less energy.

All have their places in the industry and are safe depending on how good the operator is. Myself I voted the crane, although illegal it is by far the most safest. Think about it, you climb the trees with ropes n spurs, that are attached to the tree, if that tree fails what's to save ya ass? The tree has the power over you - Where as with the crane you have the power over the tree.

Just my thoughts and inputs on the subject,
Have a good one' all.


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## Streyken (Dec 13, 2006)

As a few have alluded to, I think the safest method depends on the climbing conditions. On big fir, where the first live branch is 80’ up, I’ll always use spurs and double lanyard. On a heavy leaning alder I like SRT (I use a pantin and ascender). To get around Ivy or pruning certain trees I have a 30’ extension ladder as well as 14’ and 18’ orchard ladders. I’ve never had a problem with spurs slipping, but it’s also the type of trees I climb. On a fir with 4”- 6” cork, if you slip all you have to do is lean back and you’ll catch right away. On a palm or leaning alder this won’t work. Though I’ve never climbed a palm, always wanted to kill a few of those, looks fun. Anyway, for my area I voted spurs.


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 13, 2006)

rebelman said:


> when nine out of ten residential tree services do not have ladders, and do substandard work.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 13, 2006)

begleytree said:


> Guy, just curious, but why is crane an option here. everyone knows it's illegal to ride the hook, thereby, crane is a moot point. you can't do it anyway.
> or is this your way of finding out how many still do ride hooks?
> -Ralph


Why is riding a hook illegal? What do you think a manbasket is for?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 13, 2006)

begleytree said:


> You asked for the safest way. imo, that is spurs. spurs are not the only way up, but how is it any less safe? On spurs, you are always tied in as well. I know guys who use 2 buckstraps, I, otoh, prefer to use my rope and lanyard. JMNSHO also.
> -Ralph


You don't say why spiking is safest. You mention that you are tied in, but you are if you body thrust, ride a crane, srt, and other ways.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 13, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> and as for this diatribe that many are going on about *(if you cant use a ladder you have no busines being in a tree)*, all i have to say to that is:
> 
> WHAT A PILE OF THE PROVERBIAL STEAMING BOVINE WASTE MATTER!
> 
> ...


The point is that a ladder can be perfectly safe, if used properly. SRT can be very dangerous, as can riding a crane, flying a bucket, and you can even get killed walking across the road. Walking up a ladder is as easy as walking up a flight of stairs, if you can't do that, you don't have business in a tree.
Sorry private, looks like you get a dishonorable discharge.


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## begleytree (Dec 13, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> You don't say why spiking is safest. You mention that you are tied in, but you are if you body thrust, ride a crane, srt, and other ways.



OK, lets go that route then.
attachment to tree while spiking, 2 feet, at least one buckstrap/lanyard/rope on TIP (most likely 2 of these), 2 hands. what more attachment to the tree can you have? only 1 hand or 1 foot at a time would be removed from the tree. thats still 4-5 points of attachment at any given time.
everything else is only 1 point, the TIP,and maybe a buckstrap. last I looked, plain boots against the side walking up, while may have traction, are not an attachment. so haulingup on rope, is at best,2 points of attachment.

for riding the hook, well, here it is illegal, and no cane operator will allow it anyway. manbasket? sure, If I want placed on a roof. The ones I see, you can't do much work out of.

Now I want to hear tom T's explaination of his 'cripes sake' statement.

and Guy, It seems I'm not the only one onsite who picked up on your insinuation. a few others have picked it up and ran with it too.
The mere fact a guy knows how to spur, doesn't mean he does substandard work. This idea, along with the one that someone not using a ladder (by choice) is just silly, and merely a way to assuage ones hurt feelings, imnoho.
-Ralph


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 13, 2006)

I know a lot of crane operators won't let the climber ride the hook, but I never heard it's ilegal. Do you mean ANSI ilegal, or go to jail illegal?
We ahd a crane removal seminar here a few years back put on by Norm Hall, who you may know from Tom D's site. He talked in depth about riding the ball and even showed method of attaching the cambium saver to the hook so the climbing line couldn't come off or be smashed by the ball. I think ANSI says something like, you can ride the crane if the owner can demonstrate its a safe method.

I just don't see spiking as the safest, mostly because of the possibility of sliding down the spar. I know it happens a lot to utility workers (although just taking a double wrap would solve this). If you are tied to the top of the tree you can't fall any farther than the slack in your rope.

Guy started this poll because Clearance stated that spiking is the safest way to trim a tree, and our industry standard doesn't allow spikes on trims, so the arguement started...


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## adkranger (Dec 13, 2006)

I didn't vote because it's a loaded poll. IMHO any one of those could be the safest method based on one's training, experience, equipment used, etc..... (except trampoline) What I would consider tips it over to a safe method is number/quality of attachment points to the climber and a secure belay. A secure belay is the key element to a safe entry, period. From there whether one prefers to use a ladder, gaffs, ascenders, etc...., those are just tools to accomplish the same mission and varies with training and/or experience.

I personally hate ladders, have used them on several occaisions in tree work but would rather use rope techniques or traditional climbing methods depending on task(TD vs. trim). I certainly don't think if one prefers a different, SAFE technique other than ladder entry it makes them less of a climber.

Use of Gaffs in the appropriate situation, including climber safety, do not make one less of a climber IMO. A competent climber should have a variety of techniques in his/her bag 'o tricks and regularly practice each for proficiency.

I prefer SRT w/safety belay for some situations, DRT for others, certainly Gaff, lanyards w/belay for TDs. It all depends on the current situation, but the Belay is what makes the techniques safe because if the climber gets into trouble he can be safely rescued. Of course you must have a qualified belayer and I realize that may be a limiting factor for some.

My .02.


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 13, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> The point is that a ladder can be perfectly safe, if used properly. SRT can be very dangerous, as can riding a crane, flying a bucket, and you can even get killed walking across the road. Walking up a ladder is as easy as walking up a flight of stairs, if you can't do that, you don't have business in a tree.
> Sorry private, looks like you get a dishonorable discharge.



for the work i do a ladder is a useless piece of equipment that takes up room on my truck and that i never use. I dont deal with hedges, shrubs, roof work where you need a ladder. 50% of my work is on ground (firewood bucking), when i do climb, its DRT or SRT or spurs. And to be quite honest....around these parts you'd need a 60 - 120 foot tall ladder just to reach the bottom limbs. 

I just found the statement that "if you dont use a ladder you have no business in a tree" to be utterly RIDICULOUS. I have lots of ladder experience from my orchard days, construction, teaching ladder safety as a Site Safety officer etc. I also have business in a tree, lots. And i dont need a ladder.

Telling people they "shouldnt be in a tree" without ladder/ladder skills is ridiculous, most people will tell you to :censored: off.

just saying.


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## SRT-Tech (Dec 13, 2006)

adkranger said:


> I didn't vote because it's a loaded poll. IMHO *any one of those could be the safest method based on one's training, experience, equipment used*, etc..... (except trampoline) What I would consider tips it over to a safe method is number/quality of attachment points to the climber and a secure belay. A secure belay is the key element to a safe entry, period. From there whether one prefers to use a ladder, gaffs, ascenders, etc...., *those are just tools to accomplish the same mission and varies with training and/or experience.*
> 
> I personally hate ladders, have used them on several occaisions in tree work but would rather use rope techniques or traditional climbing methods depending on task(TD vs. trim). I certainly don't think if one prefers a different, SAFE technique other than ladder entry it makes them less of a climber.
> 
> ...



BEST post in this topic.


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## begleytree (Dec 13, 2006)

Mike, here it's ohsa illegal(i'm told as I don't have nor want,a crane lic), and crane operator fired if seen allowing it illegal.


I know why the arguement started,but honestly, guy should have made it a 2 choice, spurs or everything else, type poll. When this poll ends up with the majority voting spurs, will Guy pawn it off on poor standards and training, or will he admit he might need to look harder at the issue and revise his thinking? only time will tell. I know Guy's a good guy, but online, he can sometimes come off as a know-it-all azz. (like the rest of us)

Mike, I can honestly say I've never burnt a spar. kicked out on a spur before, sure. but not both at the same time. imo, poles are totally different as the same poles are hooked quite frequently, and there's no chance of them healing. poles can be fun, I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops (both companies in town have given me preforms, splices, ect because they know and trust me working with their svc drops). spur length is also a factor here as most utility guys are wearing 3/4 pole hooks, and I'm sticking mine in 2x that far at least.
-Ralph


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## Ekka (Dec 13, 2006)

I voted trampoline, never tried one but sounds like fun and if positioned correctly can also double as a fall arrest device. :monkey:


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## treeseer (Dec 13, 2006)

holy crapples ralph try a little moderation willya? I started the poll to see what folks thought, period. Based on the poll it looks like 1/3 of the respondents think spurs are safest. Do I think that's due to poor standards and training, not necessarily, maybe they do removals only, I don't know. I do know that if the 1/3 gets familiar with other methods many will like them better and find them equally safe. Shoot, I think the tautline hitch is the safest knot (uh oh do you smell a new poll coming?) because that's the one I know best. 

I know I don't know it all, and if you want to critteek the poll setup then by golly get off your butt and start your own. :taped: Darn moderators think they know it all. I am encouraged by the 6 with the adventurous spirit to try the trampoline. Fall arrest, that's a great bonus to the trampoline method. Ekka's blazing trails as always!


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## begleytree (Dec 13, 2006)

treeseer said:


> holy crapples ralph try a little moderation willya? [snip]
> I know I don't know it all, and if you want to critteek the poll setup then by golly get off your butt and start your own. :taped: Darn moderators think they know it all.



 FISH ON !!!
-Ralph


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

" I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops (both companies in town have given me preforms, splices, ect because they know and trust me working with their svc drops). spur length is also a factor here as most utility guys are wearing 3/4 pole hooks, and I'm sticking mine in 2x that far at least."
-Ralph

IMHO, that is nothing to brag about. In fact, I would be embarresed if I had that record. If you can't drop it in a safe place between wires, then you should learn to. I'm not trying to diss you, just think it's bad to be taking out lines like that.

When I use a ladder, I use an very long pole pruner to set my rope in a crotch high up, tie in using the split tail with fair lead, as climbing the ladder I keep the line taught, I've also used a pantin while doing this with mixed results. After I'm a ways up I also lanyard into a safe crotch or branch. 

Once I'm at the top of the ladder. I'll use the pantin for quick ascention, always roped in with my lifeline or lanyard, using the ALT with a split tail and lanyard. 

Climbing spikes or gaffs for me, seem to be the most dangerous. I use the "gecko" brand, and like the angle you can set into the tree. Still, it may be my technique, but I always have problems with slipping and dropping out with spikes. That's just me.

As I get older, ladders are a energy saving device. Most of the time though, I just use a pantin from the ground with my safety line high in the tree and walk up the butt log, and of course using the lanyard. Just my technique.


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

Slick, I can show you backyards with very large trees, where you can't raise a pruner pole over your head without hitting a drop. one pole here can hold as many as 15 different drops,crisscrossing a certian yard servicing 4-6 houses. I can work around anything I need to, but I am a tree service, not a limb pruner in a pickup. Time is money for me, so drops come down if needed. You may have all day to play around, but I don't. in case you misunderstood, I don't tear them down, I unhook them, all but power, as I feel it is necessary. I'm sorry you don't have that luxury where you work. 
BTW, trying to change your posting style along with your name, chronic1? It doesn't suit you.
-Ralph


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> " I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops (both companies in town have given me preforms, splices, ect because they know and trust me working with their svc drops). spur length is also a factor here as most utility guys are wearing 3/4 pole hooks, and I'm sticking mine in 2x that far at least."
> -Ralph
> 
> IMHO, that is nothing to brag about. In fact, I would be embarresed if I had that record. If you can't drop it in a safe place between wires, then you should learn to. I'm not trying to diss you, just think it's bad to be taking out lines like that.



I don't think Ralph is referring to crashing down CATV & Bell wires 5 times a month. I believe in "dropping" he is referring to a preventitive action of safely and effectively disconnecting the said wires from their tensioners and/or connectors either at the pole, on the clients residence or both, lay them on the ground out of harms way. Thereby increasing the safe space he has to operate in. I'm sure he'll chime in if I'm off base, but I highly doubt it. I have and I'm quite sure many, many professional tree guys have done this for years. BTW, Bell & CATV Co.s usually appreciate this as long as you don't [email protected]!$ up any of their equipment. And I refer to it as "dropping" too, probably not the best reference term, but then again I know what I mean.:biggrinbounce2:


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

*Oops*

Looks like he beat me to it.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

yeah well, ranger, you said it better than I did. I'm in one helluva mood tonight.
-Ralph


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

begleytree said:


> Slick, I can show you backyards with very large trees, where you can't raise a pruner pole over your head without hitting a drop. one pole here can hold as many as 15 different drops,crisscrossing a certian yard servicing 4-6 houses. I can work around anything I need to, but I am a tree service, not a limb pruner in a pickup. Time is money for me, so drops come down if needed. You may have all day to play around, but I don't.
> BTW, trying to change your posting style along with your name, chronic1? It doesn't suit you.
> -Ralph



Yeah, Time is money for you...I'd rather be safe. I'm not impressed by your unsafe rushing techniques. I work in the same situations you do, and in four years have never hit a service drop or cable line. And yes I "Play around" slick. I do it the right way and the safest way possible.

If you're thinking I'm a guy in a pickup truck, pruning limbs, you're wrong on that point too. I've seen yahoo's like you come and go, I'd like to be around for a while. I did start from the ground up with a pickup, but trained to not rush and keep safe at all times. 

BTW, I'll post anyway I choose, you don't impress me. I think the caveman does suit you though, and I wouldn't contract with you for all the money in the world, the money that you think is more important than safety. You're a tree service ? Just what does that mean ? Big company ? Big equipment ? Big ego ? Lol. Let me tell YOU slick, I have more knowledge about forestry and dendrology (look it up) than you'll ever have, and your callus attitude toward destruction of property gives the industry a bad rep.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> I've seen yahoo's like you come and go.




Sorry dude wrong tone here!!!


Begley has been around here for a while and has earned the respect of alot of the members...........myself included!!!


Hey *Hole Assin....* stick yer head back in the sand!!!


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## sawinredneck (Dec 16, 2006)

WWAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY Wrong tone!!!!!!!!!!!! Ralph is very respected, and has been around a day or two, around here!!


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul, I think you're still missing his post. He not talking about damaging, ripping down or otherwise causing loss of property. He is talking about temporarily, with the appropriate tools, taking the lines down so that he can be more efficient and safe guard the wires from unforeseen mishaps to boot. Then when the job is complete the wires are put back up exactly as they were. Many times this can be accomplished w/o even an interuption of service if there's enough slack.

Hopefully we can put this one to rest....:deadhorse:


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

Click. Lol.


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## 04ultra (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> Click. Lol.




I see a vacation coming for you.  





.


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

look up dendrology? for what? I am slated to be the assistant professor of dendrology starting 07/08 year. as it's not a done deal yet, I'd rather not mention the university just yet. I would say that I'll post it when it really happens,but the rate you're going, you won't be here to see it anyway.

go back and read my posts, hoss. Mr ranger seems to understand english, too bad you can't seem to...
-Ralph


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> Click. Lol.




Ahhhhh the lovely sound of the last tooth breaking off the rusty gear in the ol' brainbox!!!:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

Why, because I don't think rushing to make a buck is a good practice ? Because I said something that isn't popular ? I'm not part of the "in" crowd, an outsider ? I'm gonna get banned 'cause of my political opinions aren't up to what "the big guy" says ? 

Ever hear of freedom of speach ? Flame me all you want, ban me....then you can all agree and everyone will be right and happy with no outside interference. I'd rather be part of a commnity that can embrace different opinions without being uncivil. I said I wasn't trying to diss him, and he came back and called me "Slick". Who started the flaming ?

The Hole assassin says it all. Lack of tact and poor grasp of English. This board needs more people like me, who think independantly, instead of the cattle that follow one person who has earned respect.


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

rahtreelimbs said:


> Ahhhhh the lovely sound of the last tooth breaking off the rusty gear in the ol' brainbox!!!:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:



Baaah. More sheep.

This is more like high school than a place to discuss opinions, even ones that are unpopular. 

I wasn't trying to insult anyone, it's clear that there is a "click", not adults discussing ideas and techniques.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> Why, because I don't think rushing to make a buck is a good practice ? Because I said something that isn't popular ? I'm not part of the "in" crowd, an outsider ? I'm gonna get banned 'cause of my political opinions aren't up to what "the big guy" says ?
> 
> Ever hear of freedom of speach ? Flame me all you want, ban me....then you can all agree and everyone will be right and happy with no outside interference. I'd rather be part of a commnity that can embrace different opinions without being uncivil. I said I wasn't trying to diss him, and he came back and called me "Slick". Who started the flaming ?
> 
> The Hole assassin says it all. Lack of tact and poor grasp of English. This board needs more people like me, who think independantly, instead of the cattle that follow one person who has earned respect.




Respect has to be earned...........and from where I sit you have a long way to go!!!


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

rahtreelimbs said:


> Ahhhhh the lovely sound of the last tooth breaking off the rusty gear in the ol' brainbox!!!:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:




Now that's funny.:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## sawinredneck (Dec 16, 2006)

It's nothing to do with you're politics. You've got what eight posts? And you want to start a reveloution here already? OK, so you have different ideas, I do to, but the name calling doesn't favor anyone, and gets you no where. You want a deabate, debate, but enough with the mud slinging!
Andy


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

How is taking down the lines that are in the way, unsafe? Its helps me and helps the customer, and helps the utilities. what part of that do you not understand? I dropped (sorry, unhooked from the hangers at the pole and let fallon the ground) on a bell drop that ran 3 spans. 2 removals,I could charge the old lady a bundle to rope every piece off, or remove the drop, and cut the trees over from the ground,then rehang the drop. she was very happy to save the money,especially this time of year. I still fail to see how this is unsafe.
jezus dude! :deadhorse: 
-Ralph


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## l2edneck (Dec 16, 2006)

Has software killed the kitchen?:deadhorse:


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## sawinredneck (Dec 16, 2006)

l2edneck said:


> Has software killed the kitchen?:deadhorse:




Nothing good can come from this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## l2edneck (Dec 16, 2006)

> You've got what eight posts? And you want to start a reveloution




Now that is funny:hmm3grin2orange:


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> I wasn't trying to insult anyone, it's clear that there is a "click", not adults discussing ideas and techniques.




The word is spelled "clique"..............and yes we are one!!!:greenchainsaw:


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

4 thousand posts, three thousand posts. That says it all. I'm an outsider with a different opinion and you all are going to gang up on me and I'll get booted 'cause I wasn't PC, part of the click.

Well, I apologise if I came across crass, and I don't know many of you, but would like to. I'm sure I would learn a lot her, very useful things, but if this is the intolerance that regularly occurs......because my opinion was unpopular.

BTW, remember, I wasn't the one who started talking s#$t. "Slick"


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

rahtreelimbs said:


> The word is spelled "clique"..............and yes we are one!!!:greenchainsaw:



How did you know that? I thought you lacked a grasp of English.:biggrinbounce2: :yoyo:


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

Hey Hole Assin.... stick yer head back in the sand!!!
__________________


Lol, I like that one. And I RESPECT that.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 16, 2006)

adkranger said:


> How did you know that? I thought you lacked a grasp of English.:biggrinbounce2: :yoyo:




Contrary to popular belief I do get around!!!:rockn:


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

I thought you meant crashing down service drops. Whoops. Nevermind.


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> 4 thousand posts, three thousand posts. That says it all. I'm an outsider with a different opinion and you all are going to gang up on me and I'll get booted 'cause I wasn't PC, part of the click.
> 
> Well, I apologise if I came across crass, and I don't know many of you, but would like to. I'm sure I would learn a lot her, very useful things, but if this is the intolerance that regularly occurs......because my opinion was unpopular.
> 
> BTW, remember, I wasn't the one who started talking s#$t. "Slick"



It's not an intolerence thing, you got Begley's bones up because you challenged his work ethic and claimed he operated in an unsafe manner for doing what many consider a standard operating proceedure.


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## sawinredneck (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> 4 thousand posts, three thousand posts. That says it all. I'm an outsider with a different opinion and you all are going to gang up on me and I'll get booted 'cause I wasn't PC, part of the click.
> 
> Well, I apologise if I came across crass, and I don't know many of you, but would like to. I'm sure I would learn a lot her, very useful things, but if this is the intolerance that regularly occurs......because my opinion was unpopular.
> 
> BTW, remember, I wasn't the one who started talking s#$t. "Slick"




Now the last part, I will leave be.

I am by no stretch of the imagination a climber, I climb, but am learning. I still use a ladder everytime I can, I find it's easier, then tie in and have the groundie move it for me.

I could care less about you're opinion, it's all about sharing on here, share away!!! But the derogatory comments hav no place, figure out whats going on, sounds like you misunderstood, and flew off at the handle without grasping it all?
Andy


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> 4 thousand posts, three thousand posts. That says it all. I'm an outsider with a different opinion and you all are going to gang up on me and I'll get booted 'cause I wasn't PC, part of the click.
> 
> Well, I apologise if I came across crass, and I don't know many of you, but would like to. I'm sure I would learn a lot her, very useful things, but if this is the intolerance that regularly occurs......because my opinion was unpopular.
> 
> BTW, remember, I wasn't the one who started talking s#$t. "Slick"



Bud, after post #63, your fate was pretty much decided. I, otoh, have not banned you for a personal attack on me, nor have I even given you any feedback (that red box is not from me) I am attempting to talk with you to see what part of taking something out of my way is unsafe.
as far as a 'click' well, we all do know each other and each other's strengths and weaknesses, and friendships forge along the way. Many of us also converse nightly via IM services, and talk via phone as well.

To all who came to back me up, thank you. 
-Ralph


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

*Public apology*

Ok, I publicly apologize to Mr. Begley. I'm an idiot at times and speak before I get my head out of me arse. I thought he meant he was crashing limbs down on lines. I did create quite the spectacle eh ?


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

It's not a clique-thing, but people sure do like a good pile on here. It's all in good fun though.  

Don't be discouraged, there is lots to learn from people here. Sometimes you have to read a post a couple times to grasp what it telling you.:help: You'll get through this, others have had rocky starts as well as I'm sure they'll tell you.


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

begleytree said:


> Bud, after post #63, your fate was pretty much decided. I, otoh, have not banned you for a personal attack on me, nor have I even given you any feedback (that red box is not from me) I am attempting to talk with you to see what part of taking something out of my way is unsafe.
> as far as a 'click' well, we all do know each other and each other's strengths and weaknesses, and friendships forge along the way. Many of us also converse nightly via IM services, and talk via phone as well.
> 
> To all who came to back me up, thank you.
> -Ralph


Could you kindly refresh me on number 63 ?


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> Yeah, Time is money for you...I'd rather be safe. I'm not impressed by your unsafe rushing techniques. I work in the same situations you do, and in four years have never hit a service drop or cable line. And yes I "Play around" slick. I do it the right way and the safest way possible.
> 
> If you're thinking I'm a guy in a pickup truck, pruning limbs, you're wrong on that point too. I've seen yahoo's like you come and go, I'd like to be around for a while. I did start from the ground up with a pickup, but trained to not rush and keep safe at all times.
> 
> BTW, I'll post anyway I choose, you don't impress me. I think the caveman does suit you though, and I wouldn't contract with you for all the money in the world, the money that you think is more important than safety. You're a tree service ? Just what does that mean ? Big company ? Big equipment ? Big ego ? Lol. Let me tell YOU slick, I have more knowledge about forestry and dendrology (look it up) than you'll ever have, and your callus attitude toward destruction of property gives the industry a bad rep.



this #63
btw, the caveman avatar is a nod to my amateur intrest in anthropology, as is my sig line.
-Ralph


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## 04ultra (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> Yeah, Time is money for you...I'd rather be safe. I'm not impressed by your unsafe rushing techniques. I work in the same situations you do, and in four years have never hit a service drop or cable line. And yes I "Play around" slick. I do it the right way and the safest way possible.
> 
> If you're thinking I'm a guy in a pickup truck, pruning limbs, you're wrong on that point too. I've seen yahoo's like you come and go, I'd like to be around for a while. I did start from the ground up with a pickup, but trained to not rush and keep safe at all times.
> 
> BTW, I'll post anyway I choose, you don't impress me. I think the caveman does suit you though, and I wouldn't contract with you for all the money in the world, the money that you think is more important than safety. You're a tree service ? Just what does that mean ? Big company ? Big equipment ? Big ego ? Lol. Let me tell YOU slick, I have more knowledge about forestry and dendrology (look it up) than you'll ever have, and your callus attitude toward destruction of property gives the industry a bad rep.



look at the quote


.


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

I guess I'll have to post on the depression and bipolar support group board. Lol.

LOL ?


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## trimmmed (Dec 16, 2006)

*Bullshat*



Soul Assassin said:


> ................
> 
> BTW, remember, I wasn't the one who started talking s#$t. "Slick"



Sure it was you that started talkin shat first. You misunderstood what he said, so eat a little crow. He is DISCONNECTING the wires prior to removal of tree, in case that point has still passed you by.

It started here




Soul Assassin said:


> IMHO, that is nothing to brag about. In fact, I would be embarresed if I had that record. If you can't drop it in a safe place between wires, then you should learn to. I'm not trying to diss you, just think it's bad to be taking out lines like that.


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## l2edneck (Dec 16, 2006)

> Don't be discouraged, there is lots to learn from people here




yea he just chose to make it all sappy........


2 reds im glad he likes yall


edit:4 reds


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## clearance (Dec 16, 2006)

Ralph, you gots to laugh, this is some funny stuff. Anyways, to make something abundantly clear, there ain't no rules about spurs in this province (British Columbia) for climbing anything, ever.


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 16, 2006)

What are those four red things ?

Hey, I admit I'm an idiot.....some of the time. Lol. Props to Mr. Begley for not being one.


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## begleytree (Dec 16, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Ralph some of us were about to back you up but just couldn't think of anything good to say on the spur of the moment.



well, the saying goes: its better to remain silent and be thought...., well now thats not nice, is it?
-Ralph


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## adkranger (Dec 16, 2006)

begleytree said:


> well, the saying goes: its better to remain silent and be thought...., well now thats not nice, is it?
> -Ralph



hmmmmm:taped:


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## Ekka (Dec 16, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> What are those four red things



They are negative Rep points dished out by other forum members.

For a guy who only has a handfull of posts I think it might be a record.

Apparently when one gets too many of these the system bans them.

Mind you it doesn't add to your credibility when your location is *EARTH* ... and clearly your comprehension was off the planet.


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## 04ultra (Dec 16, 2006)

Ekka said:


> They are negative Rep points dished out by other forum members.
> 
> For a guy who only has a handfull of posts I think it might be a record.
> 
> ...




    


.


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## beowulf343 (Dec 17, 2006)

Darn, I can't believe it. I don't check out the site one night and I miss seeing ralph take a punk to school!! 

What Ralph said:


begleytree said:


> I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops.
> -Ralph


What most of us believe Ralph meant:
He gently unhooks the service drops, carefully carries them down the pole, and lovingly lays them on the ground where they won't get hurt.


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## begleytree (Dec 17, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Darn, I can't believe it. I don't check out the site one night and I miss seeing ralph take a punk to school!!
> 
> What Ralph said:
> 
> ...




Well, if you go back a few more posts, we were talking about burning down a spar, and utility guys doing it to poles. Thats when the point was brought up that I am on quite a few poles a month, dropping svc drops. I guess I can see where between terminology and where I mentioned carrying splices, that It could have been a misunderstanding. I figured if someone read where I ascend poles and drop wires, that it was clear that they were being unhooked. 
Its all good now, so don't be too hard on him. At least he was thinking of safety and our public image. nothing wrong with that.
I can't beieve that many people negged his reputation. 4 red boxes is definately a record! I, otoh, did not touch it. 

Clearance, I'm sort of with you on the spurs idea. I've seen 1,000s of trees spurred and one whole side removed for utility clearance. then this is repeated every 3-4 years. From what you would sometimes read here at a/s, the trees should have died many years ago, but no. just a few scars from old hook marks. This leads me to believe that spurs are not the end all death to trees some would want me to believe. I will agree that their use during pruning could constitute more bark openings than is necessary, and does (if you're not careful) make the tree unsightly. But a total ban on their use, when used correctly, would be a mistake as well.
-Ralph
-Ralph


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## Blinky (Dec 17, 2006)

This isn't fun anymore. I'm gonna go start a knot poll.

Just for the record, I'm not a ladder guy, I don't like'em, I don't feel safe on'em and I have been ascending a rope and bypassing Guy's ladder lately for those reasons.

Well, Yesterday I was dog tired and achy from two days (entirely too long) pruning this big willow oak... I'm slow, but I'm working on it. Anyway, I showed up ready to take out the last couple of deawood chunks, tied into the rope, looked at the ladder which went up about 15' but not all the way to the first branch... looked at the rope.. looked at the ladder... looked at the rope... and climbed the dang ladder before transitioning onto the rope. Saved myself 15' of hauling and was glad for it.

I didn't like being on the ladder but it was worth it to save the energy. The week before I had to get a TIP into the top of a Hickory for a takedown FAST. I took the rope up on gaffs and a flipline. I didn't like that either, he trunk changed angle every 5' or so, probably the most insecure I've ever felt in a tree... but I'd do it again if it means being on time to pick up my daughter.

Really, ladders aren't so bad, gaffs aren't so bad, I still like ascenders best though. The truth is, and this may be blasphemy, but I'm not always looking for the SAFEST method. Risk is OK when you know how to manage it. Risk is one way of accomplishing something that might otherwise be impossible to accomplish.

OK, time for a knot poll... you may hate me for it but I'm obsessed.:monkey:


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 17, 2006)

What about climbers used with a pantin on a ladder ?


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## Ekka (Dec 17, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> What about climbers used with a pantin on a ladder ?



 WTF?

What about you put your real location down, coz it aint Earth. Oh I get it, you're a space cadet and just dropped in. OK opcorn: I'll explain.

Pantin is a device strapped to your foot so you can ascend a rope, as you push down with ya foot it locks the rope and you go up.

Climbers in the context you have used above mean spikes or spurs (hooks and climbing irons too I suppose), so why would you have a pantin on when you have spikes on? Then have all that on and try to go up a ladder? WTF?

Perhaps you need to elaborate so us mere earthlings can understand what you mean.


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## 04ultra (Dec 17, 2006)

Ekka said:


> WTF?
> 
> What about you put your real location down, coz it aint Earth. Oh I get it, you're a space cadet and just dropped in. OK opcorn: I'll explain.
> 
> ...



  
.


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## rebelman (Dec 17, 2006)

I think he's trying to get back on topic.


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## Soul Assassin (Dec 21, 2006)

I'll answer that agressive post.

Many times while in a tree, I have found that while I have ascended with climbing spurs, I would then like to be using a pantin. Soooooo, I put on the pantin, use the climbers to climb the tree in the usual way, with ladder, split tail fair lead, safety lanyard, and then cut over to the Pantin when I feel I'm safely up.


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## Streyken (Dec 21, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> I'll answer that agressive post.
> 
> Many times while in a tree, I have found that while I have ascended with climbing spurs, I would then like to be using a pantin. Soooooo, I put on the pantin, use the climbers to climb the tree in the usual way, with ladder, split tail fair lead, safety lanyard, and then cut over to the Pantin when I feel I'm safely up.



I don't want to fan any flames here, but huh? 
Seriously, I want to know the reasons behind your methodology, could you elaborate a bit more in a linear fashion? Most guys I know go spurless the first bit then put the spikes in so as not to leave marks at the base (even the municipal guys do this, despite what they're telling the boss).


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## JEff B (Dec 21, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> I'll answer that agressive post.
> 
> Many times while in a tree, I have found that while I have ascended with climbing spurs, I would then like to be using a pantin. Soooooo, I put on the pantin, use the climbers to climb the tree in the usual way, with ladder, split tail fair lead, safety lanyard, and then cut over to the Pantin when I feel I'm safely up.




are you saying you put on the spurs, then climb the ladder with the spurs on, then take the spurs off and put on the pantin??? If this is what you mean you are in need of some serious climbing lessons. Not to bust your balls because i may be misunderstanding what your saying but to climb a ladder with spurs on is insane! why the effort to set up a ladder when you can just walk up the tree with the spurs? and if it is because you don't want to be making spur marks that are visable to the eye then you shouldn't be spiking in the first place.
and IMO if you already have spurs on, they are much faster and efficient doing a removal then a pantin would ever be. Pantins are great for rope climbing on a prune job but are nothing compared to the speed of spikes


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## Ekka (Dec 21, 2006)

Jeff

He's a troll and the red dots indicate his worth.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 21, 2006)

Soul Assassin said:


> I'll answer that agressive post.
> 
> Many times while in a tree, I have found that while I have ascended with climbing spurs, I would then like to be using a pantin. Soooooo, I put on the pantin, use the climbers to climb the tree in the usual way, with ladder, split tail fair lead, safety lanyard, and then cut over to the Pantin when I feel I'm safely up.




I'll bet you bleed like a stuck pig when you gaff yourself using a Pantin with hooks on!!!

That description above is just too much dickin' around!

Put the hooks on and get to it!!!

:notrolls2:  :notrolls2:


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## Ekka (Dec 21, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Jeff
> 
> He's a troll and the red dots indicate his worth.



Well, there you go. Buzzlightyear just gave me a negative rep point for this post and left no comment. What a hoser hero!


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## treeseer (Dec 21, 2006)

"Most guys I know go spurless the first bit then put the spikes in so as not to leave marks at the base (even the municipal guys do this, despite what they're telling the boss)."

I've done that a few times.



Ekka said:


> Well, there you go. Buzzlightyear just gave me a negative rep point for this post and left no comment. What a hoser hero!


Eric, the Aussie-Brit namecalling stuff is really old.  It's distracting me from my wondrous admiration for someone who can use four distinct methods of ascension on the same tree and call that efficient! 

That's trolling with some stinky bait. Geez ya start a thread and never know what will come out of the wood work.

:notrolls2:


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## JEff B (Dec 21, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Well, there you go. Buzzlightyear just gave me a negative rep point for this post and left no comment. What a hoser hero!




well the way i see it, you would be a lot better off saying something useful and maybe educational. from what i've seen your a pretty knowledgable and professional guy


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## diltree (Dec 21, 2006)

I think that riding the ball of the crane is the safest way into a tree!!!:yoyo:


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## jonseredbred (Dec 21, 2006)

Oh, okay its the safest method of entry into a _tree_, I gotta start reading these posts better.


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 21, 2006)

begleytree said:


> imo, this thread is a waste. nothing good will come of it. like talking religion vrs evolution, it's fun, but no one is going to change their beliefs.
> 
> BTW, I voted spurs, but then, I'm not afraid to strap them on, like other 'climbers' I've seen....
> 
> -Ralph



What if statistics show more injuries associated with one style or the other.

I'd guess that ladder would have a few injuries associated with that method, mainly due to the way some people use it.


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## begleytree (Dec 21, 2006)

well, oddly enough we can argue accidents too, but accident rates show that if a chipper has stoppable/reversable feed wheels, you are far more likely to be killed in it, than in a simple drum chipper with no safety features like instant stop or reverse. doesn't make sense, but thats the statistics.
and same with chippers and ladders,its all in the operator and his error.
in a word, complacency.
-Ralph


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## rebelman (Dec 21, 2006)

Jeff B-I go up a ladder with spikes on occasionally, it's not "insane". There are many situations where it makes the job much more efficient.


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## begleytree (Dec 21, 2006)

rebelman said:


> Jeff B-I go up a ladder with spikes on occasionally, it's not "insane". There are many situations where it makes the job much more efficient.


agree, like going over a big hairy gob of vines.
-Ralph


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## SteveBullman (Dec 22, 2006)

i see nothing wrong with going up a ladder with spikes on......if im taking down a tree with a huge trunk with a bowl 15ft up with smaller limbs coming off it makes absolutely no sense to lengthen my lanyard to fit the trunk, spike up and then have to get myself over the bowl when i can just ladder up and im off to work.

people need to get over their anti ladder stance....they have their place in arboriculture as much as anything else.


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## diltree (Dec 22, 2006)

ladders are for old men......wait a second, my dads 70 years old, I've never seen him use a ladder to get up in the tree, Sorry dad . I think carrying a ladder around to every job, when you have a rope, spikes and climbing gear is a bit excessive.....so I'm backing Jeff b on this one....."makes no sense". Still what ever works for you, is whats best, if you need a ladder all the power too you.


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## SteveBullman (Dec 22, 2006)

im talking production here dil, that ladder could quite feasibly save 5 minutes of my time. i dont have to put it up the tree nor take it down, thats the groundies job and whoever im subbing to on the day supplies the ladder unless im otherwise requested to bring my own. why would i not take advantage of that?
and it has nothing at all to do with "needing a ladder"


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## JEff B (Dec 23, 2006)

stephenbullman said:


> i see nothing wrong with going up a ladder with spikes on......if im taking down a tree with a huge trunk with a bowl 15ft up with smaller limbs coming off it makes absolutely no sense to lengthen my lanyard to fit the trunk, spike up and then have to get myself over the bowl when i can just ladder up and im off to work.
> 
> people need to get over their anti ladder stance....they have their place in arboriculture as much as anything else.




double lanyard, get to the "bowl" toss your second lanyard around the "smaller limbs" and off you go..... much faster then setting up a ladder and climbing it with spikes on


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## Tree Slayer (Dec 24, 2006)

*no ladder*



diltree said:


> ladders are for old men......wait a second, my dads 70 years old, I've never seen him use a ladder to get up in the tree, Sorry dad . I think carrying a ladder around to every job, when you have a rope, spikes and climbing gear is a bit excessive.....so I'm backing Jeff b on this one....."makes no sense". Still what ever works for you, is whats best, if you need a ladder all the power too you.



So how do you clean off the homeowners roof when your done? we always have a ladder in both chip trucks


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## RedlineIt (Dec 24, 2006)

Voting spurs, though to be pedantic, it should read spurs and lanyard, because I've seen climbers take not just the first 6 - 8 feet of a fat buttress without lanyard but significant height to avoid working the lanyard over old stubs (or the time to cut them off) and that's not safe at all.

My reason for voting spurs: Any time I've had any surprise or hiccup with rope access it would have been entirely avoided had I spurred that tree.

Also, any time I've got a difficult, time-consuming throw-ball situation, I could have been safely up there fifteen minutes ago on my hooks. 

This is why, if I were grounding for you, my spurs and saddle, rope and lanyard are ready to go, a safe distance away, but ready to go.

Finally, Why Ladders Suck: Yes, we need them. Yes, they're useful. If I can complete a pole-pruning job with just a couple more feet of height, a tripod ladder is most useful. Roof access too, acknowledged. (Though I'd much rather rope down onto the roof from my TIP, that is not always possible.)

Ladders suck because OHSA, ANSI, WCB, all insist that 10 feet (3m) off the ground the ladder must be tied in or the worker above that height on that ladder must be tied in. So what does that gain you?

We are all OSHA, ANSI, WCB compliant here, aren't we? We've got rope loops on attached pulleys to extend that ladder beyond ten feet, right?

Right?



RedlineIt


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## a_lopa (Jan 6, 2007)

Shot out of a cannon,black hawk helo?riding a sidewinder?i give up.

:deadhorse:


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## The Climber (Jan 13, 2007)

Wow, That Little yellow Walmart dude has been busy beating the ????E outa that horse all through this thread.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 22, 2007)

Ladders suck because OHSA, ANSI, WCB, all insist that 10 feet (3m) off the ground the ladder must be tied in or the worker above that height on that ladder must be tied in. 


ANSI states that the climber shall be secured when working off a ladder...doesn't address ascent. My definition of 'working' is touching the tree in any way. If a twig needs to be pushed aside in order to ascend the ladder that's working, the climber shall be secured.


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## Highclimber OR (Jan 22, 2007)

Ladders are totally dangerous. I have had some very strange things happen on a ladder, and let's not forget what the homeowner with the broken leg and arm were using to trim their tree. use the method that you like and are comfortable with. And always get tied or secured in asap and that includes the ladder to the tree.


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## treeseer (Jan 22, 2007)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Ladders suck because OHSA, ANSI, WCB, all insist that 10 feet (3m) off the ground the ladder must be tied in or the worker above that height on that ladder must be tied in.


Tom I do not see this in my Z. Number, please?


> ANSI states that the climber shall be secured when working off a ladder...doesn't address ascent. My definition of 'working' is touching the tree in any way. If a twig needs to be pushed aside in order to ascend the ladder that's working, the climber shall be secured.


 Any activity that involves leaning or exerting some considerable force can make ladder ascension less safe, I agree. Brushing away twigs does not impact safety, and seeking to mandate tie-in while doing it is way excessive imho. Your definition of "working' includes activities that are not "working", and are no doubt shared by at least .0001% of working arborists.

Your point is useful, though, in pointing out that brushing the tree with a long polesaw is a good idea for many reasons, clearing access for the ladder being one. I hate to pick at you on this one, TD, but i just spent 8 days of very productive work with a sub (kotwica), and a 32' ladder. If we had not used the ladder, we would have been much more sore and much more poor. :help:


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## minderaser66 (Jan 30, 2007)

John464 said:


> you forgot the safest of all - aerial lift



i feel more comfortable and safer in my saddle. too many things on the lift truck can break and send you to your death. they do make things alot easier though...


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## treevet (Feb 1, 2007)

One thing you learned as you become a more seasoned climber is how to conserve or ration energy. A 32 foot ladder is easily bungeed on the top of a 11 foot or better chip box. Shoot a beanbag up into a higher limb if nec and your secured on the way up. If I got 6 or 7 big trees to enter in a day I got alot of work on the lats and hands after getting off the ladder. Saying not using a ladder is stupid started a big riff earlier (but it made for some good reading) Let s just say it is not smart doing all that yanking off the bat. Remember the joke about the Male sheep telling his son looking down into the vally at the female sheep, the son wants to run down and b ng one of them and the dad says let s walk down and b ng all of them.


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## adam (Feb 5, 2007)

*stairs*

I voted for trampoline (puts whole new meaning to the "jumpcut", you just jump and cut), however stairs are also very convenient


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## trimwizard (Feb 8, 2007)

I've not used ascenders or trampolines so couldn't comment on them.
After assessing the tree I will decide how to aproach my ascent.
Removals usually w/spikes & lanyard, Trims either ladder then climb or hump up (usually hump), if it can't be just climbed w/lanyard.
Have occasionally taken aerial basket up & transferred into tree at height but really don't enjoy the transition into tree.
I feel more comfortable being tied into a tree I have inspected than trusting a machine (especially one someone else is operating). worked red iron for awhile and had a drunk crane operator nearly kill me by slamming the beam I was on with a load of purlins.


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## adam (Feb 13, 2007)

treevet said:


> One thing you learned as you become a more seasoned climber is how to conserve or ration energy. A 32 foot ladder is easily bungeed on the top of a 11 foot or better chip box. Shoot a beanbag up into a higher limb if nec and your secured on the way up. If I got 6 or 7 big trees to enter in a day I got alot of work on the lats and hands after getting off the ladder. Saying not using a ladder is stupid started a big riff earlier (but it made for some good reading) Let s just say it is not smart doing all that yanking off the bat. Remember the joke about the Male sheep telling his son looking down into the vally at the female sheep, the son wants to run down and b ng one of them and the dad says let s walk down and b ng all of them.



I couldn't agree with you more on "conserving energy" by use of a ladder. Within a season average full time climber can avoid footlocking Kilimanjaro, climbing first 25-30' up a ladder. In the other hand ladders are quite dangerous, I witnessed two accidents involving ladders, and both were nasty. Ladder; "love-hate" relation in my case.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 21, 2007)

*safest of all*



John464 said:


> you forgot the safest of all - aerial lift



That would depend on the lift in question has it been serviced
age any recalls aerial lifts do fail drive cables break, leveling
sometimes fails, bolts loosen, pins crack,bearings wear etc.
Back in the early eighties my boss asked why I would rather
climb than work out of trim lift I told him god made a tree man
made his bucket and I trust god. Lifts are a excellent tool
and I have been in several for years but not all lifts are the 
same and the one I didn't like was having drive cable failure,
even on new lifts and this was nothing that resembled new.
I now use a high ranger and its a good design as long as inspected
and maintained !


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## spongygumz (Feb 23, 2007)

*Safety*

Of course THE safest way is to lrt somebody else do it.


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## DonnyO (Feb 23, 2007)

spongygumz said:


> Of course THE safest way is to let somebody else do it.




And let them have all the fun????


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## adam (Feb 23, 2007)

spongygumz said:


> Of course THE safest way is to let somebody else do it.



tempting (especially in a case of something small size, dead as a door nail, split and ugly, when you need all guts with no glory attached).


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## jomoco (Feb 23, 2007)

begleytree said:


> Guy, just curious, but why is crane an option here. everyone knows it's illegal to ride the hook, thereby, crane is a moot point. you can't do it anyway.
> or is this your way of finding out how many still do ride hooks?
> -Ralph



Wrong,

The ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in trees was changed a few years ago to allow climbers to ride the hook as long as specific safety criteria are met.

This is not an endorsement for crane entry to a tree, just a fact I keep having to point out to city and county inspectors, supervisors etc.

The link below is proof

http://treecareindustry.org/Public/gov_standards_z133.htm

Work Safe!

jomoco


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## Soul Assassin (Feb 26, 2007)

Ekka said:


> WTF?
> 
> What about you put your real location down, coz it aint Earth. Oh I get it, you're a space cadet and just dropped in. OK opcorn: I'll explain.
> 
> ...



OK, no flame here. I live in Colorado, have a degree in Forestry from SUNY-ESF. I've used a Pantin for a year and a half now, I know how they work. I also have 15 plus years in the forestry field from line clearence to owning my own company, I got a bad start on the board and publicly apologized, and admitted I was a bonehead at that time. Bad day, I don't know.

I've used my Ghecko climbers and my pantin seperately. I was thinking how great it would be if I could use them both at once, which I know they are not designed for. Soooo, in a safe environment, I tried to do that using various adjustments, I never found a safe mixture. See, there have been times when I would ascend a tree with the Pantin, and would like to have then had my climbers on so I could have more stability, without removing the pantin then sending up the climbers etc....I'm always looking for safer, better ways to do my job, and I like to "think outside the box" if it is reasonable and safe. I have several ideas that I think I could market, that make climbing safer and easier. About five years ago, while buying equipment, it seemed to me IMHO, that much of the gear used by arborists was outdated, or not designed specifically for tre care. For example, the Buckingham climbers.........I actually bought a pair...the leather stretched so bad and the angle of the "spikes " were meant for telephone poles. IMHO, they didn't fit for the job I was doing, then the Ghecko climbers came on scene. Big difference.

BTW- Thanks for all the insults and personal attacks even after I apologised. I even got called a douche, lol. You know who you are, and I bet the person one thousand dollars they would never say that to my face. And EKKA, the reason I didn't reply quickly, was I was out running my business, taking care of my many, many happy customers. lol.


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## begleytree (Feb 26, 2007)

jomoco said:


> Wrong,
> 
> (snip)
> jomoco


perhaps, but the way ansi is written and the way things work out in the field, can be very different things. 
-Ralph


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 26, 2007)

*wrong!*



jomoco said:


> Wrong,
> 
> The ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in trees was changed a few years ago to allow climbers to ride the hook as long as specific safety criteria are met.
> 
> ...



You cannot ride the hook but you are allowed to tie in above the ball (designated anchor point)


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## jomoco (Feb 26, 2007)

begleytree said:


> perhaps, but the way ansi is written and the way things work out in the field, can be very different things.
> -Ralph



Arborists operating cranes should take particular note of the brand-new section on cranes, reproduced in full below. The part in italics was the only requirement conveyed in the 1994 revision of Z133: 

“Riding the load line of a crane while it is under load tension shall be prohibited, except for circumstances outlined [below]. “A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line. 

The following procedures shall be followed when an arborist is to be lifted by a crane: “The person specifically responsible for the work shall only authorize the use of a crane when he/she has determined that it is the safest and most practical way to perform the work or gain access to the tree. Such authorization should be made in writing and be retained at the job site. “The crane operator shall be familiar with the potential hazards and operational techniques encountered in tree work. 

“The arborist climbing line shall be secured to the crane in such a way that it does not interfere with the function of any damage-prevention or warning device on the crane, and so that no part of the crane compromises the climbing line or any other component of the climbing system. “The crane operator and the person responsible for the work to be performed shall meet prior to the work to review procedures to be followed. If the work involves a signal person and/or arborist being lifted in addition to the person responsible for the work, they shall participate in the review. 

“Communication between the crane operator and the arborist being lifted shall be maintained either directly or through the appointed signal person. 

“The crane shall be supported on a firm surface and maintained in a level position. The crane operator shall use blocking or other means if necessary so that the support medium does not exceed its load-bearing capabilities. When provided, outriggers shall be extended and properly set. Lifting of arborists shall not be permitted when the crane is supported solely on its tires. 

“The crane operator shall test the adequacy of footing prior to any lifting. A green log weight chart should be available to the crew. 

“The lifting and supporting shall be made under controlled conditions and under the direction of the arborist or an appointed signal person. 

“The crane operator shall remain at the controls when the arborist is attached to the crane. 

“The crane boom and load line shall be moved in a slow, controlled, cautious manner with no sudden movements when the arborist is attached. The lifting or lowering speed shall not exceed 100 feet per minute. The crane shall be operated so that lowering is power-controlled. 

“The crane carrier shall not travel at any time while the arborist is attached. 

“The arborist shall be detached from the crane any time it is under load tension. EXCEPTION: The person specifically responsible for the work shall only allow the arborist to remain attached to the crane while it is under load when it is determined that all reasonably possible alternative methods are inaccessible and attachment to the subject tree would create a greater safety risk due to its hazardous condition. Possible alternative methods include, but are not limited to: 

securing to the tree and detaching from the crane before it comes under load; 
use of a second crane; 
use of an aerial lift device; 
use of an adjacent tree." 


With all due respect, you were posting incorrect info and furthering it to both beginners, veterans and anyone else reading it.

Crane removals are a whole different ball game that require special techniques and lots of forethought and calculation, it is in my opinion an area deserving of much more teaching and study in the tree industry.

Misinformation definitely doesn't help the matter.

Respectfully,

jomoco


----------



## OTG BOSTON (Feb 26, 2007)

jomoco said:


> With all due respect, you were posting incorrect info and furthering it to both beginners, veterans and anyone else reading it.
> 
> Crane removals are a whole different ball game that require special techniques and lots of forethought and calculation, it is in my opinion an area deserving of much more teaching and study in the tree industry.
> 
> ...



Well said, but you can't "ride the hook" like you posted earlier either.............


----------



## jomoco (Feb 26, 2007)

*Wrong Again*



OTG BOSTON said:


> Well said, but you can't "ride the hook" like you posted earlier either.............



It is perfectly fine and allowable to tie into the hook as long as you use a certified arborist rope and saddle and the gate to the hook is locked with a pin, and that the hook is only being used to position the climber in the tree and nothing else at that moment.

I invite you to:

Read ANSI Z133 sections 5.791-5.7912

Call TCIA and talk to either Peter Gerstenberger or Bob Rouse as I have done.

I have done thousands of removals with cranes from 15-300 ton capacities, and I like to think that I know what I'm talking about at the seminars where I've taught and demonstrated proper crane removal techniques for the Professional Tree Care Association here in San Diego.

Respectfully,

jomoco


----------



## adam (Feb 26, 2007)

Soul Assassin said:


> OK, no flame here. I live in Colorado, have a degree in Forestry from SUNY-ESF. I've used a Pantin for a year and a half now, I know how they work. I also have 15 plus years in the forestry field from line clearence to owning my own company, I got a bad start on the board and publicly apologized, and admitted I was a bonehead at that time. Bad day, I don't know.
> 
> I've used my Ghecko climbers and my pantin seperately. I was thinking how great it would be if I could use them both at once, which I know they are not designed for. Soooo, in a safe environment, I tried to do that using various adjustments, I never found a safe mixture. See, there have been times when I would ascend a tree with the Pantin, and would like to have then had my climbers on so I could have more stability, without removing the pantin then sending up the climbers etc....I'm always looking for safer, better ways to do my job, and I like to "think outside the box" if it is reasonable and safe. I have several ideas that I think I could market, that make climbing safer and easier. About five years ago, while buying equipment, it seemed to me IMHO, that much of the gear used by arborists was outdated, or not designed specifically for tre care. For example, the Buckingham climbers.........I actually bought a pair...the leather stretched so bad and the angle of the "spikes " were meant for telephone poles. IMHO, they didn't fit for the job I was doing, then the Ghecko climbers came on scene. Big difference.
> 
> BTW- Thanks for all the insults and personal attacks even after I apologised. I even got called a douche, lol. You know who you are, and I bet the person one thousand dollars they would never say that to my face. And EKKA, the reason I didn't reply quickly, was I was out running my business, taking care of my many, many happy customers. lol.



I've had the same problem many times removing large limbs or stems. I had to access tree without spikes and then put them on while up on the tree in order to remove safely stem (or limb) in question. Sometimes it was descending or swinging from neighbor tree into the tree to be removed. Also never solved the problem. Putting spurs on while up there can be quite challanging. I love my Buckinghams by the way.


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## DonnyO (Feb 26, 2007)

jomoco said:


> It is perfectly fine and allowable to tie into the hook as long as you use a certified arborist rope and saddle and the gate to the hook is locked with a pin, and that the hook is only being used to position the climber in the tree and nothing else at that moment.



THAT sounds productive:bang:


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## oldirty (Feb 26, 2007)

*dont feel like reading the whole thread but*

as much as i dont like ladders myself, they are good for leaning up against a palm tree to work the fronds out and do your trim. palm trees suck but not as much as the big nasty citrus rat that comes flying down your arm and out the palm. ever sword (chainsaw) fight a citrus rat in a palm tree? man them pricks are nasty.




oldirty


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

Jomoco,

All do respect your wrong about being allowed to tie on to the ball and hook

OSHA sets this rule and it is clearly stated in ANSI 133

“Riding the load line of a crane while it is under load tension shall be prohibited, except for circumstances outlined [below]. “A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line. "

Pay close attention to the last line " anchor point on the boom or Line" That means tieing into a point on the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the line....not the ball and hook


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## DonnyO (Feb 26, 2007)

*I dunno dil*

His credentials look pretty fierce. 

Don't injure your arm Jomoco, patting oneself on the back can lead to repetitive stress injury.


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## jomoco (Feb 26, 2007)

*Wrong once again*



diltree said:


> Jomoco,
> 
> All do respect your wrong about being allowed to tie on to the ball and hook
> 
> ...



Read what you posted, ( while it is under load tension ) and even that is allowed under certain conditions.

Again, I invite any or all of you to call TCIA ( used to be the National Arborist Association ) and talk to their safety experts about this matter, I encourage you to do so.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## DonnyO (Feb 26, 2007)

jomoco said:


> Read what you posted, ( while it is under load tension ) and even that is allowed under certain conditions.
> 
> Again, I invite any or all of you to call TCIA ( used to be the National Arborist Association ) and talk to their safety experts about this matter, I encourage you to do so.
> 
> ...



This arguement makes No sense.


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

“A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line. "


Your interpretation is incorrect...under tension there is no riding the boom tip nor the line

Its pretty clear this quote is directly from the ansi material you are referring us to, it clearly states boom or line...not the ball and hook

I am a certified and licensed class one hoisting engineer, I invite you to show me any literature by osha or ansi that states you can tie into the ball and hook


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## DonnyO (Feb 26, 2007)

diltree said:


> “A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line. "
> 
> 
> Your interpretation is incorrect...under tension there is no riding the boom tip nor the line
> ...



What do you mean dil? It all right here in black and white:



jomoco said:


> Read what you posted, ( while it is under load tension ) and even that is allowed under certain conditions.
> 
> Again, I invite any or all of you to call TCIA ( used to be the National Arborist Association ) and talk to their safety experts about this matter, I encourage you to do so.
> 
> ...


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## oldirty (Feb 26, 2007)

*man*

this is like arguing about wearing ppe.

dil how many climbers you put in the tree off your crane? you expect some poor schmoe to climb his way up through a prickly spruce tree, taking far longer than your willing to wait, just to get to the spot to put the sling on?

we all know you should have all the ppe on ( i wear it ) but some people dont.

would you wait the hour for a climber to get into position or put him on the ball and get him to the spot pronto?

stop pissing on each other leg and get over it.

i personally like to race the ball to the spot but on the odd occasion i take the free ride cause i dont feel like battling my way through all the brush and what not.

we all know if we followed the osha guidelines to a T that nothing would get done. and soon you'd be selling the crane cause your not working enough or charging to much just to use it.

whatever man, this arguement stinks. lets argue about how much a stihl chainsaw sucks and dolmar is making a comeback but how not many saws can touch a husky xp.

hows that for staring a new riot?


ol dirty


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

Jomco...

http://www.treecareindustry.org/Public/gov_standards_z133.htm

Not that TCIA is the authority on safe crane operation

But I couldn't find anything about tieing into the ball and hook, becoming an excepted practice

It does state the boom or line as a acceptable tie in point though!


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## Soul Assassin (Feb 26, 2007)

*To each thier own*

"I love my Buckinghams by the way"

No problem with that, I just found the leather to stretch while in a tree, and the "spikes" could be at a better angle and design. Just my 2 cents.


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

Old Dirty,

Im just trying to get to 400 posts


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## oldirty (Feb 26, 2007)

looks like you did man! congrats.

and its ol dirty.
but no offense taken. lol


ol dirty


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## jomoco (Feb 26, 2007)

*Surprising amount of misinformation here*



diltree said:


> Jomco...
> 
> http://www.treecareindustry.org/Public/gov_standards_z133.htm
> 
> ...



In my conversation today with Bob Rouse of TCIA he stated that riding the hook of a crane has always been accepted practice in the U.S., except for California, though CAL OSHA changed that some three years ago, so that now it is accepted practice throughout all of the U.S.

If you guys do not accept either my word on the matter or that of TCIA, Marco Crane, Maxim Crane, Don Blair or other associates of mine, well I guess there's little else to say.

I will say that it is up to each individual crane company whether or not to allow a climber to tie off on their hook, this makes good sense in that you would never want to tie off on the hook of an operator with no experience in tree take down with a crane.

Fortunately for me I have a long list of experienced and professional operators from which to choose, be it Dave Walcott of Atlas Tree or Steve Pennel of Marco Crane, these guys are good!

There is an interesting discussion on this subject between TCIA and Calif. government officials at the link below.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/OSHsb/treeclimbingandaccessFSOR.pdf


Respectfully,

jomoco


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## Climb020 (Feb 26, 2007)

5.7.8 Riding the load line of a crane while it is under load tension shall be prohibited for circumstances outlined in sebsection 5.7.9.11.

So you can ride up and ride with load only when it creates a greater rish then being tried into the tree. But under load if you cannot
secure to the tree for each cut, use second crane, airial lift, and an adjacent tree.


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

Jomoco,

You brought up ansi standards; you have misinterpreted them. All written regulations by ansi or osha state that you can tie into the boom or the line. More specifically the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the cable above the load hook. Again I ask you, where does It say to tie onto the load hook, I gave you your TCIA link for ansi regulations, simply cut and paste the quote and prove me wrong. 

I will agree with you that tieing onto the load hook is an excepted practice among climbers but if you want to start quoting ansi you better get your facts straight. By osha and ansi standards tieing in off of the load hook is forbidden.


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## jomoco (Feb 26, 2007)

*How many times are you going to be wrong?*



diltree said:


> Jomoco,
> 
> You brought up ansi standards; you have misinterpreted them. All written regulations by ansi or osha state that you can tie into the boom or the line. More specifically the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the cable above the load hook. Again I ask you, where does It say to tie onto the load hook, I gave you your TCIA link for ansi regulations, simply cut and paste the quote and prove me wrong.
> 
> I will agree with you that tieing onto the load hook is an excepted practice among climbers but if you want to start quoting ansi you better get your facts straight. By osha and ansi standards tieing in off of the load hook is forbidden.





The ball and hook are integral to the load line, common sense and the fact that when a man basket is attached to the load line it hangs from the hook, should be obvious indications that what I'm saying is true, as per ANSI Z133 standards.

Read my post prior to this one, follow the link I give on the written minutes of a debate between TCIA and CAL OSHA in which they discuss this very subject. These conversations should enlighten your understanding of the subject.

I don't mean to be rude, I'm trying to be accurate.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

Although the August 12, 2004 advisory committee members discussed provisions in the ANZI Z133.1 standard that permit a qualified tree worker/arborist to be secured directly to the crane boom, the proposed amendments for Section 3427(a)(1) do not permit that practice. TCIA’s representative at the committee meeting explained that it is believed that in some cases, being secured to the boom provided more mobility for the tree worker. The committee also discussed that the preferred method or most common method is being secured above the headache ball. The committee agreed that being secured to the crane boom raised safety issues (e.g., movement of the boom and boom extension with a tree worker attached), and it was agreed that the provision was unnecessary for inclusion in the proposal. TCIA representatives still expressed concern regarding the potential that the tree worker’s safety line could roll out of the crane’s hook while being suspended from it.
Proposed modifications eliminate language referring to a crane’s “closed safety type” hook, which is not a defined term and raised clarity issues for some advisory committee members. The proposed modifications require that the crane hook be closed with a positive locking device and also requires the tree worker saddle to be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook. It is believed that these modifications will address TCIA’s concerns.


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## diltree (Feb 26, 2007)

"The proposed modifications require that the crane hook be closed with a positive locking device and also requires the tree worker saddle to be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook."

Jomco,

All I asked was the ansi standard that said you could tie into the hook, not tie into the hook if your tied to the line above the hook too....its easy cut and paste and prove me wrong, like I cut and pasted your debate!

I found this to be very interesting...you can tie into the load hook, if you are tied into and independent line above the load hook. hmmmm

Interesting debate........but still only a debate, not a new ansi regulation stating you can tie into the hook...... by the way, the line and the load hook are separate entities as tre the terms line and loadline, your common sense fails you.....I'm gonna guess your not a licensed class 1 hoisting engineer, nor have you received any certification from the national commission of crane operators.....your just a guy that rents a crane to cut trees that has been tieing into the hook for years. You keep telling people they are wrong but fail to post proof.....all BS

not trying to be rude...just accurate


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## jomoco (Feb 27, 2007)

*Rude and wrong*



diltree said:


> "The proposed modifications require that the crane hook be closed with a positive locking device and also requires the tree worker saddle to be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook."
> 
> Jomco,
> 
> ...




Again, I invite you to call Bob Rouse or Peter Gerstenberger at TCIA and put the question to them as I did, however when you don't get the answer you're looking for, I suggest you leave your rude BS comments out of the conversation, just listen and learn.

I believe that the reason their actual language in the standard is somewhat ambiguous on the accepted tie in point relates to the possibility of an inexperienced climber tying into the hook and not removing his or her line before the operator puts pressure on the piece being lifted, if the climbing line was under the attachment rigging for the piece, it is possible that the tremendous pressure applied could cut the climbing line in half. This is one of the many reasons they prohibit tying off to a load line under load. 

The ISA link below is somewhat ambiguous on this point, but more so in picture than in word. I suggest you read the article carefully, then call Bob Rouse on monday.

http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/pdfs/zpart2.pdf

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## diltree (Feb 27, 2007)

Ansi 133Z

“A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line. 

OSHA 3427 Safe work procedures

"A qualified tree worker may be histed into position useing a approved tree workers saddle. Secured to a cranes hook that shall be closed with a positive locking device, the tree workers saddle shall also be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook"

Both statments indicate that you must be tied to the line above the hook, and can only tie into the hook if you have a seperate line tied in above the hook....How can I get more clear with you...you said ansi stated you could tie into the hook, you come on here acting like some sort of authority, telling people they are wrong, and rude, with no evidence to support your claims, only that your friends at TCIA said its ok....Does TCIA stand for "The crane industry association"? you really believe the TCIA is the authority on crane work? State you opinions, back them up with facts, and dont tell people they are wrong unless you have the answers which clearly you dont...

Im done with this thread...peace Jomoco


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 27, 2007)

jomoco your comeback for everything seems to be, call so-and-so, but you can't back it up with facts. diltree even called you out on your credentials and you had no response except ask this guy and that guy. I need good hard facts as quoted by ANZI, untill then you will not see me tieing in to a hook.

BTW poor form to post peoples names here, I know it would piss me off if you did it to me.


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## jomoco (Feb 27, 2007)

*Good ole boys club*



GICON said:


> Jamoco, you are making this thread a painful experience. If you dont know what your talking about, admit your wrong doing, take other peoples advice, and move on. No need to call other people rude and ignorant. Not everyone knows everything about every subject. It is evident that crane work isnt your specialty. Take the advice of the professionals on this site and use it in a safe manor. Good luck to you, and I wish you the best.



I get it, it's just fine for you " PROFESSIONALS " to post misinformation for the beginners to suck up, then when I call you on it, the good ole boys form a circle and shout their pitiful chorus... TCIA who's that, what do they know?

Well obviously alot more than some.

jomoco


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 27, 2007)

*again?????????????*



jomoco said:


> I get it, it's just fine for you " PROFESSIONALS " to post misinformation for the beginners to suck up, then when I call you on it, the good ole boys form a circle and shout their pitiful chorus... TCIA who's that, what do they know?
> 
> Well obviously alot more than some.
> 
> jomoco




Just stop. Untill you come with some FACTS.


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## jomoco (Mar 7, 2007)

GICON said:


> Well said OTG. It looks like another West Coast thread gone bad, and wrapped up by the East Coast Boys. I think its safe to say this thread is complete and put to rest.....



Z133.1 Safety Standard,
2006: Using Cranes
Safely By Steve Chisholm, H. Dennis P. Ryan, and Peter
Gerstenberger

It may be of some interest for you guys to note the following:

1. I did not jump into this thread until Begely ( a moderator ) posted misinformation, stating it was illegal to tie off onto the loadline of a crane to enter a tree.

2. When I pointed out that this was untrue, the good ole boys rallied round the flag with the misinformation that the Z standard link that I supplied required a climber to tie off above the crane ball etc.

3. Rather than pointlessly arguing with misinformed members of this board, I contacted the individual members of the commitee that actually wrote the standard. They are: Steve Chisholm, Dennis Ryan, Peter Gerstenberger, and 
Don Blair primarily.

Each and every one of these men have personally informed me that it is perfectly acceptable to tie off onto the hook of a crane provided that the hook has a locked gate.

As a practical matter, I myself use two seperate 3/4 inch clevis' on the hook,
one for my rigging, the other for my climbing line, both on the hook with the gate locked with a bolt. This ensures that my climbing line is seperate from and cannot be damaged by pressures or entanglement with the rigging hardware.

In my discussions with both Blair and Chisholm, the subject of the questionability of the practical safety aspects of tying off above the ball come up. This is because tying off above the ball takes the swiveling mechanism of the hook out of the climbers attachment point, this can lead to tangled lines and frustration, perhaps even danger. This makes the hook with a locking gate a safer and more practical tie in point.

When a climber riding the crane hook is being positioned for a pick he will generally set his choker, then signal the crane operator to spool up enough to snug the choker into place to ensure it is set and stays put, then the climber will rappel down on his line, attach his lanyard, pull his line out of the clevis on the hook and retie onto the tree as a safety escape just in case.
Then he can signal the crane operator to apply the proper amount of pressure to the loadline for a smmooth pick.


I am simply pointing out that there is enough misinformation in this business flying around on the internet already, adding to it on this site is not conducive to learning or tree industry professionalism in general.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 7, 2007)

*this I can understand*

I appreciate you coming back with this. Just so you understand where I was coming from, your previous posts were unclear at best. I know you took a bit of abuse here but your final post clearly sums up what you were trying to get across in the first place, Thanks for sticking with it!

I am in no way afffiliated with any East Coast/West Coast B-S! Just look at what happend to Tupac and Biggie...................

I am on a committee with one of the guys mention, I will follow up and re-enforce your stance. Now lets see what dill has to say..........................:hmm3grin2orange:


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## diltree (Mar 7, 2007)

Mis-Information.....I simply quoted the ansi and osha standard verbatim....now your saying if the hook has a locked gate its ok, well my cranes dont have locked gates so that would not apply to me.......Its funny because I'm currently taking a class to become a certified OSHA trainer, so I can personally certify my employees for their mandatory OSHA 10. 
The OSHA instructor specified that the climber can only tie into the hook if he is tied in above the ball with a separate line as well; I'm not going to post the instructors name because thats just bad form. I will say this, if there is an accident on my job site, the TCIA will not be sending an investigator and fining my company; that task will be left to OSHA. In the same sense my Workman's comp. inspector(who is also an OSHA inspector) will not be going over TCIA safety protocol when he visits our job site this year to observe our work practices. 

Jomoco, I'm sure you have a few days a year were you rent a crane and pic a few palm trees off Santiago beach, and if you want to tie into just the hook thats fine with me. I own and operate two cranes and a full service tree care operation, and as you can imagine with over 10 employees our Workman's comp. is pretty expensive. So until I see in writing that riding the hook is the new standard, I'm going to stick with what my comp. inspector OKs as an accepted practice.


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## DonnyO (Mar 7, 2007)

Oh s#!t, the gloves are definatelty off now!opcorn:


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## jomoco (Mar 7, 2007)

*Mistaken assumptions*



diltree said:


> Mis-Information.....I simply quoted the ansi and osha standard verbatim....now your saying if the hook has a locked gate its ok, well my cranes dont have locked gates so that would not apply to me.......Its funny because I'm currently taking a class to become a certified OSHA trainer, so I can personally certify my employees for their mandatory OSHA 10.
> The OSHA instructor specified that the climber can only tie into the hook if he is tied in above the ball with a separate line as well; I'm not going to post the instructors name because thats just bad form. I will say this, if there is an accident on my job site, the TCIA will not be sending an investigator and fining my company; that task will be left to OSHA. In the same sense my Workman's comp. inspector(who is also an OSHA inspector) will not be going over TCIA safety protocol when he visits our job site this year to observe our work practices.
> 
> Jomoco, I'm sure you have a few days a year were you rent a crane and pic a few palm trees off Santiago beach, and if you want to tie into just the hook thats fine with me. I own and operate two cranes and a full service tree care operation, and as you can imagine with over 10 employees our Workman's comp. is pretty expensive. So until I see in writing that riding the hook is the new standard, I'm going to stick with what my comp. inspector OKs as an accepted practice.



Your mistaken assumptions reguarding my crane experience only high lights your tendancy to be both rude and wrong on this subject.

You may think that a ten man tree operation that uses cranes with nonlocking gates on your hooks qualifies you to speak intelligently on this matter, however it illustrates just the opposite. I feel sorry for the climber below your hook that gets creamed when your rigging hardware comes off that hook and brains him.

The following OSHA guideline may be of interest to you:

DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
29 CFR part 1926
Stars indicate important sections 
(Docket No. S-409)



Crane or Derrick Suspended Personnel Platforms (Continued)

(B) The number of employees occupying the personnel platform shall not exceed the number required for the work being performed.

(C) Personnel platforms shall be used only for employees, their tools, and the materials necessary to do their work, and shall not be used to hoist only materials or tools when not hoisting personnel.

(D) Materials and tools for use during a personnel lift shall be secured to prevent displacement.

(E) Materials and tools for use during a personnel lift shall be evenly distributed within the confines of the platform while the platform is suspended.

(iv) Rigging.

(A) When a wire rope bridle is used to connect the personnel platform to the load line, each bridle leg shall be connected to a master link or shackle in such a manner to ensure that the load is evenly divided among the bridle legs.

(B) Hooks on overhaul ball assemblies, lower load blocks, or other attachment assemblies shall be of a type that can be closed and locked, eliminating the hook throat opening. Alternatively, an alloy anchor type shackle with a bolt, nut and retaining pin may be used.

(C) Wire rope, shackles, rings, master links, and other rigging hardware must be capable of supporting, without failure, at least five times the maximum intended load applied or transmitted to that component. Where rotation resistant rope is used, the slings shall be capable of supporting without failure at least ten times the maximum intended load.

(D) All eyes in wire rope slings shall be fabricated with thimbles.

(E) Bridles and associated rigging for attaching the personnel platform to the hoist line shall be used only for the platform and the necessary employees, their tools and the materials necessary to do their work, and shall not be used for any other purpose when not hoisting personnel.


I find your assumptions about me merely annoying, however your assumption that the recognized tree experts that actually wrote the ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in the tree industry are somehow mistaken is offensive to a wide range of tree experts including me.

I respectfully suggest you change out your crane hooks for the new Johnson locking gate hooks for the safety of the climbers you employ.

Safety First

jomoco


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## diltree (Mar 7, 2007)

Its a good thing my climbers don't use the hook at all, they either tie into the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the line. What a Jamoco you are!


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## diltree (Mar 7, 2007)

Jamoco.."Your mistaken assumptions reguarding my crane experience only high lights your tendancy to be both rude and wrong on this subject."

Jamoco, I hope your experience regarding cranes is less then or equal too your inability to spell; your failure to exhibit English verbal skills will ultimately warrant a tragedy when performing tree removal with another intellectual individual in the industry.


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## DonnyO (Mar 7, 2007)

S#!t jomoco, all of your long winded posts have yet to prove anything to anyone!


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 7, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> S#!t jomoco, all of your long winded posts have yet to prove anything to anyone!



Funny............same could be said for you!!!:newbie:


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## beowulf343 (Mar 7, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> S#!t jomoco, all of your long winded posts have yet to prove anything to anyone!



I found them to be interesting reading. Keep them up jomoco-i may not agree with everything you say, but it makes me stop and research things for myself.


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## jomoco (Mar 8, 2007)

*Pointlessness*

I've pretty much determined that it's pointless to argue about this matter anymore with a few narrowminded individuals that are too lazy to pick up a phone or write an e-mail to determine for themselves the truth of it being legal to tie off onto the hook of a crane with a locked gate.

I have however both written and talked to commitee members and Cal OSHA officials that will be meeting in April to determine if it would be possible to rewrite these regulations in clearer language so that no misunderstanding of the regulations occur in the future.

This to me is a better use of my time, and I thank the experts and officials that are making these efforts to develope safer and more practical guidelines for the tree care industry in the future.

Heck I'll even thank the jokers here that have made it clear that more readily understandable regulations are sorely needed right away.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## diltree (Mar 28, 2007)

Jamoco,

I had the pleasure of attending the Mass. Arborist Association Safety saves seminar on working safely with cranes this past week. It was complete with representation from the TCIA and OSHA including some of your for-mentioned pals. The final verdict was that under no circumstances should you tie into the ball hook, and that you should tie into the boom line with a shackle or friction hitch. Further more they used reference material from the recent issue of your favorite TCIA magazine. I would appreciate it if in the future you did not spread this type of mis-information over the Arborist Site.

Respectfully,

diltree


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## jomoco (Mar 28, 2007)

*Rest assured I read the article*



diltree said:


> Jamoco,
> 
> I had the pleasure of attending the Mass. Arborist Association Safety saves seminar on working safely with cranes this past week. It was complete with representation from the TCIA and OSHA including some of your for-mentioned pals. The final verdict was that under no circumstances should you tie into the ball hook, and that you should tie into the boom line with a shackle or friction hitch. Further more they used reference material from the recent issue of your favorite TCIA magazine. I would appreciate it if in the future you did not spread this type of mis-information over the Arborist Site.
> 
> ...



I read the article in TCI today, as well as sending e-mails to each individual on the commitee that I spoke with previously for clarification on their answers to my questions, though I doubt I'll receive any replies until after April's meeting on the subject.

If it turns out that I am indeed wrong about my assertions, rest assured that I'll man up and admit it.

Until then I'll have to settle for atleast being correct about it being legal to tie off onto a crane, though the exact accepted method for doing so is still in question.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## woodchux (Mar 28, 2007)

A friction saver and clevis shackle above the ball is the approved method in my understanding


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## diltree (Mar 28, 2007)

woodchux...you are correct....that is an accepted method


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## Ed Roland (Mar 28, 2007)

I gots me this hybrid style of gettin up there. I tie in with an anchor hitch, use a split tail tied with a blakes. I then have the option to hipthrust or for the long haul i get myself vert. and foot lock it while advancing my rope.


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## treehumper (Mar 29, 2007)

Rats, I missed all the fun.... 

I deal with an insane number of wires on some of the jobs we do in the city. The more I can drop the happier I am! Then we actually make money!


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 29, 2007)

*you just had to didn't you*



diltree said:


> Jamoco,
> 
> I had the pleasure of attending the Mass. Arborist Association Safety saves seminar on working safely with cranes this past week. It was complete with representation from the TCIA and OSHA including some of your for-mentioned pals. The final verdict was that under no circumstances should you tie into the ball hook, and that you should tie into the boom line with a shackle or friction hitch. Further more they used reference material from the recent issue of your favorite TCIA magazine. I would appreciate it if in the future you did not spread this type of mis-information over the Arborist Site.
> 
> ...



I was hoping to make it to the meeting, settled for another day in paradise instead:greenchainsaw: 

I knew you would get this cleared up, for a while there I was second guessing myself. Jomoco made some pretty convincing arguements, I'd just never seen it done the way he described it. I hope you guys can be friends now, it seems like a match made in heaven to me. Two guys who get big wood over cranes.......................:hmm3grin2orange:


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## diltree (Mar 30, 2007)

Jomoco ha ha ha...you read the article?

What do you think about those apples!!!

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## DonnyO (Mar 31, 2007)

diltree said:


> Jomoco ha ha ha...you read the article?
> 
> What do you think about those apples!!!
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:



He's calling all of his "friends" right now. I'd still like to see a pic of his crane set up though...............


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## jomoco (Mar 31, 2007)

GICON said:


> Jamoke, where is your rebuttle? The lag time in your response is getting to be a bit too much.



My reply is there in post #196 at the top of this page.

But once again you may rest assured that after the april commitee meeting is over and I hear back from the commitee members that I consulted with prior to any of my assertions in this post, I will make full and unambiguous apology on this board for posting inaccurate and misinformed information.

Until then, try and hold your triumphant glee in check. I'm a man of my word.

Respectfully,

jomoco


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## Soul Assassin (Apr 7, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Jeff
> 
> He's a troll and the red dots indicate his worth.



LOL, trolling the thread, Pekka, my offer still stands tough guy. I'll out climb you, out smart you and send ya home to ya mommy crying punk.

I meant, this is when I'm removing a tree, so spiking the lower area of the trunk isn't an issue.

So then I'm up, and if for a long time the spurs become uncomfortable, I can remove them and use my pantin for stability and leverage.

I don't like ladders anymore, just had a bad experience with one, my original post sounded stupid, cause I am most the time...but...there are many techniques and equipment that could be improved upon greatly, just thinking out loud.......sigh.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 8, 2007)

I,m ready for them to perfect jet packs lol. Just pull trigger and
fly like an eagle! Or maybe lazier trimmer just trim from the ground but
think of the regs on that, man we could post for days!!!!!


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## diltree (Apr 18, 2007)

Jomoco...where did you go...I miss you


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