# 66" bar + MS880 = Saw Dust and Slow Cutting. What's wrong?



## Doss (Jun 19, 2012)

So, I'll first detail what I'm doing and my set up and hopefully someone can give me some advice.

*Set up:*
MS880 (tuned fat and runs fine)
66" bar Alaskan mill and the ripping chain that came with it (plus a few extra bars and chains of different sizes and styles)

I'm cutting 30-50" red and water oak (still green, but not newly felled). The surfaces looks fine no matter which chain I use. I have a large planer and handheld portable planer regardless.

*Problem:*
I'm getting a lot of fine dust coming out of the cut. This makes me think I don't have enough space between the cutters to clear the waste wood. I'm sure it's not b/c of dull cutters b/c as soon as I see-saw it the curls and chips start to shoot out. 

To add to this, it takes about 30 minutes to cut about 10' of log. That seems a little slow.

*Technique:*
What I'm doing:
- See-sawing in the cut to produce larger chips and speed up cutting
- Resharpening every 2-3 cuts (touch ups)

*What I'm thinking:*
- Do I need full skip chain?
- Should I have my whatever type of chain reground to another profile? If so, what?
- Why didn't I buy a large bandsaw mill?


Any thoughts or suggestions would help. I'm just wondering if there's anything I can do to speed this up some. If this is the time it takes though, I'll just deal with it. Thanks y'all.


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## mdavlee (Jun 19, 2012)

Milling produces a lot smaller chip than cross cutting. That's just the nature of it. Cutting end grain like that is slower than normal cross cutting or noodling.


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## Doss (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks mdavlee. I figured the orientation of the cut was causing some of what I was seeing, but since I can get nice chips out at times and fine dust out at others, I was hoping there was some way to fix that (and hopefully speed up the cutting).

If all it is is a condition or the nature of milling, I have no choice but to soldier on how it is. That's not a bad thing necessarily. I just wanted to make sure I'm doing the best that can be hoped for.


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## srcarr52 (Jun 19, 2012)

30 minutes for 10' is pretty high. If you are not bogging the saw down I would look at filing your rakers down more. Most of us have found that ripping chain will need more depth in the raker to cut at optimum speed. 

What type of chain are you running? I would expect a full skip, semi chisel filed at 10 or less top plate angle.


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## redoakneck (Jun 19, 2012)

If you have a lot of knots in the cut that will slow you down also. It was taking me 12-15 minutes to get thru 30" wide ash, so if you are doing 40" wide that is not too bad. Lower the rakers as said. Get the bark off and keep the chain sharp. I would file the chain after every cut doing stuff that big.


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## BobL (Jun 19, 2012)

30 minutes is way too long for something like water oak. 
12' long 40" wide cast iron aussie hardwood takes me about 20"

I'll bet you are not using progressive raker setting.
How are you setting the rakers?

Even in the hardest wood I don't bother with skip chain but I do retouch after every wide slab.


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## Doss (Jun 20, 2012)

Now you guys got me thinking. So, I ran and snapped a shot of my chain really quick. Please forgive the iPhone pic. I ran into the back room in low light to snap a quick pic. The chain is dirty (oil with saw dust) and the lighting is terrible. So, don't think the cahin is all chewed up... it just looks that way b/c it's dirty. It should be whatever ripping chain that comes with the Granberg kit

View attachment 242367


I know that's not much detail and the chain isn't 100% clean, but can anyone see any major issues? Thank you guys for the help so far.


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## jnl502 (Jun 20, 2012)

Lower the rakers for sure and how are you filing the cutters. The better you file the better the cut.
jnl


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## Doss (Jun 20, 2012)

jnl, how much should I lower them? 1/2? 1/3? 1/4? I hand file normally at what the chain is spec'd at (which I can't remember b/c I haven't cut in about 5 months).

Thanks.


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## jnl502 (Jun 20, 2012)

Doss said:


> jnl, how much should I lower them? 1/2? 1/3? 1/4? I hand file normally at what the chain is spec'd at (which I can't remember b/c I haven't cut in about 5 months).
> 
> Thanks.



Well it differs of what wood you are cutting but I mostly cut hardwood/Oak. I have an Alaskan 36" with aux. oiler. I ues regular 3/8 full comp. chesel filed to 20 degrees. The rakers I use a strait edge from cutter to cutter at front edge point to point and file to I think from bottom of strait edge take another 0.050. I changed last time I milled and that was some time back. I guess over a year now but someone may back me up or may be way off as I now think hard on it. I can check tomorrow and know for sure. I was hopeing to help but might be showing my stupidity. You can do a search and find lots of info. BobL or bmorgan's treads ond posts are very good.
jnl


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## BobL (Jun 20, 2012)

Doss said:


> jnl, how much should I lower them? 1/2? 1/3? 1/4? I hand file normally at what the chain is spec'd at (which I can't remember b/c I haven't cut in about 5 months).
> 
> Thanks.



Those cutters look pretty bad, in fact they are amongst the worst I have seen in a long time. No wonder you are making dust and taking 30 minutes to cut 8ft in water oak, and you probably have to push like a maniac to make progress. The cutters do not have enough top plate cutting angle or "Hook".

It looks like you need to study how to sharpen chain. The Carlton chain saw chain guide is worth getting hold of.

Here is closer to what they should look like.





The top picture is Will Mallof's cutter - the bottom one is a typical one of mine.

The rakers depth should be approximately 1/10 of the gullet width.
Another way of putting it is the wood - cutter tip - raker top angle should be ~6º.


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## Doss (Jun 20, 2012)

BobL said:


> Those cutters look pretty bad, in fact they are amongst the worst I have seen in a long time. No wonder you are making dust and taking 30 minutes to cut 8ft in water oak, and you probably have to push like a maniac to make progress. The cutters do not have enough top plate cutting angle or "Hook".
> 
> It looks like you need to study how to sharpen chain. The Carlton chain saw chain guide is worth getting hold of.



Come to think of it, I wasn't the last person to use the mill. One of my woodworking friends was... maybe I should've paid a little more attention when I put it in storage. Either way, they're really not as bad as they seem (besides the lack of hook) and no, I don't have to push it through (though with how it was left I may have to if I cut again). I need to clean the chain and use more light to take a picture. I just had a roll of EL tape behind the chain which added to the graininess/distortion. Otherwise this chain has only been run through maybe 50 or 60 feet of wood (I use my 41" bar most of the time because it's always been faster). This is just the ripping chain and it has always been a little slow. 

If you look at this link, it looks almost exactly like this when clean (with slightly less hook which it doesn't seem like it had that much to begin with).

I will take your advice on sharpening and see how that goes. Thanks for the pics of how they should look and I'll report back my findings.


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## BobL (Jun 20, 2012)

Doss said:


> Otherwise this chain has only been run through maybe 50 or 60 feet of wood (I use my 41" bar most of the time because it's always been faster). This is just the ripping chain and it has always been a little slow.


There's awful lot of cutter been removed for 50-60 ft of cut. I would expect that much cutter use to have cut 10 time more wood than that



> If you look at this link, it looks almost exactly like this when clean (with slightly less hook which it doesn't seem like it had that much to begin with).



Chain straight off rolls is often not optimised for fast cutting. Chain manufacturers make chain for conservative use with high rakers to reduce the possibility of kick back and create a smoother (running not surface) cut. Aggressively sharpened chain will have lower rakers and a significant hook. This makes the saw grabby and puts more vibe on the saw but this is the price that has to be paid for faster cutting.


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## discounthunter (Jun 20, 2012)

you didnt say if you ran an aux oiler. id bet that would make a huge difference on something as wide as your cutting.


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## Doss (Jun 21, 2012)

discounthunter said:


> you didnt say if you ran an aux oiler. id bet that would make a huge difference on something as wide as your cutting.



Yep. I run an auxiliary and I run it pretty wet.

*BobL*, that's how many feet it's cut approximately. Some of this wood is a little dry and dirty (the red oak has about a year of drying). My Stihl chains look to be in better condition after the same sort of cutting if that means anything.

I cleaned part of the chain last night and the chain is worn as you noted in the picture... though I wouldn't say it's horrible. The picture does make it seem a lot worse. I'll get you a clean pic this weekend and hopefully you can give me more pointers (they've been helpful).

I also noticed the the cutters are of 3 different types (at least from my quick cleaning that's what I saw). I'll post a pic of that too.

I'm not a chainsaw expert (as some of you can tell). I just want to cut the wood and make some furniture.

Thanks for the help so far.


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## rarefish383 (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm milling with an old Homelite 1050 with factory Stihl chain. Low RPM, but pretty good torque. It took me 4 min to mill a 5ft by 21" slab and I had to push on it, and it seamd slower than death. I had been using the saw to buck up Oak firewood and just slapped it on the mill. It was going through the firewood like hot butter, on the mill, real slow. The difference between cutting the way the chain was meant to cut, and milling, is worlds apart. If you say "It's not that bad", for milling that is terrible. If it's just a wee bit dull and bucking "OK", it is dull, dull, dull, for milling. That has been the hardest thing for me to get through my thick skull. I'll buck firewood all day Saturday and say "man this thing is right". Stick the mill on it and just sigh, take the mill back off, shake my head for not doing what I knew I had to do, and touch it up. Only a couple strokes per tooth, but it makes a difference. And, unlike BobL, I do not find sharpening saws relaxing. My hands and fingers start to cramp up, my eyes get all crossed, I start to sweat, and that's only one side of my 36" bar. Anyway, best of luck, and don't get too frustrated, Joe.


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## BobL (Jun 21, 2012)

I'd recommend getting hold of the 33 page Carlton chain guide. The last time I looked it was not available on their website but it might be somewhere - PM me if you would like a copy.
It's the only document I have read that accurately explains how chain cuts and explains why chain should be sharpened like is should. 
Here are a couple of excerpts from the guide.


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## SPM in King (Jun 24, 2012)

Nice post Bob. I was cutting 30" red oak a few days ago with a newish chain. It had been sharpened a few times but I had not touched the rakers. Like Doss, I was creating dust, but no chips. My other chains were making both. After increasing the depth of cut, this chain started to cut well. I went with .050" depth (chain is rated for .030"). I did not think I needed to address the depth of cut with such a new chain. I will now measure each time I sharpen and adjust new chains. Doss, when I sharpen a chain, I just kiss it with the grinding wheel. As time goes on, I take less and less material away. This keep them sharp without burning the steel. Your chains will last a long time!

Steve.


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## jaycky (Feb 7, 2015)

BobL said:


> I'd recommend getting hold of the 33 page Carlton chain guide. The last time I looked it was not available on their website but it might be somewhere - PM me if you would like a copy.
> It's the only document I have read that accurately explains how chain cuts and explains why chain should be sharpened like is should.
> Here are a couple of excerpts from the guide.


I would love to read this


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## ZachAK (Feb 11, 2015)

BobL said:


> I'd recommend getting hold of the 33 page Carlton chain guide.



Thanks, BobL! Great recommendation.

I found the Carlton guide here:

http://www.carltonproducts.com/pdfs/CarltonSafetyMaintManual_EN.pdf


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## PhilB (Feb 11, 2015)

Zach,
Thanks for the link.
Phil


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## JS929 (Feb 13, 2015)

rip chain works a bit different from normal crosscut chain. You've got clearing cutter teeth and scratcher teeth. The scratcher teeth cut a groove down each side of the cut and the clearing cutters cut the groove of wood left in the middle. The 10 degree angle removes smaller amounts of wood at a time compare to a 30-35 degree crosscut cutter. This will produce dust basically. You'll think it is dull or something is wrong since we all know dust from a crosscut chain means it is butterknife dull. 

I use the Granberg file-n-joint sharpener guide to sharpen my rip chains. It works great. The angles are perfect, and it is fast and easy. I am old fashioned and prefer sharpening with files. I see too many folks using grinders to sharpen chains that get those teeth to turn from silver to pretty shades of blue and purple. I'm pretty sure the temper of those cutters are screwed at that point. Personal preference though.


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## BobL (Feb 13, 2015)

JS929 said:


> rip chain works a bit different from normal crosscut chain. You've got clearing cutter teeth and scratcher teeth. The scratcher teeth cut a groove down each side of the cut and the clearing cutters cut the groove of wood left in the middle.


That's a very special/specific kind of rip chain. Regular rip chain is the same as regular chain and just has a 10º top plate filing angle. 



> The 10 degree angle removes smaller amounts of wood at a time compare to a 30-35 degree crosscut cutter.


I've done a fair bit of measurement of actual kerf sizes (e.g. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/real-kerf-sizes.137465/)
My measurements show that on a 3/8" chain the difference between the kerf generated by 10º and 30º top plate filing angles is usually less than 0.01" so less than 3%
The reason for using 10º is usually based on producing a better finish but I've found even that depends more on the operator than anything else


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