# Leaning Tree Help



## sdhershey (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm new at this type of work and have been learning all I can from my boss about cutting and bucking trees. I've been working around the house on our ten acre lot just practicing clearing some trees and sprucing the land up. I was cutting some tall poplars today and came to a tree with a slight bit of lean to it. I wanted it to fall in the opposite direction of the lean becuase that's where it had ideal space to fall. I figured I could cut my face cut, then start my back-cut until the saw pinched, insert a wedge and the tree would come right down. But I was wrong and even with the wedge all the way in it still had a little opposite lean. After thinking that it wasn't going to fall the way I wanted it to I pulled out the wedge and decided to fell it in the direction of the lean. I cut a second face cut and it came down without getting limb-locked. Luckily, it came down easily, but for the future I would like to figure out how to make it fall in the desired direction. Thanks ahead of time.
Scott


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## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2011)

sdhershey said:


> I'm new at this type of work and have been learning all I can from my boss about cutting and bucking trees. I've been working around the house on our ten acre lot just practicing clearing some trees and sprucing the land up. I was cutting some tall poplars today and came to a tree with a slight bit of lean to it. I wanted it to fall in the opposite direction of the lean becuase that's where it had ideal space to fall. I figured I could cut my face cut, then start my back-cut until the saw pinched, insert a wedge and the tree would come right down. But I was wrong and even with the wedge all the way in it still had a little opposite lean. After thinking that it wasn't going to fall the way I wanted it to I pulled out the wedge and decided to fell it in the direction of the lean. I cut a second face cut and it came down without getting limb-locked. Luckily, it came down easily, but for the future I would like to figure out how to make it fall in the desired direction. Thanks ahead of time.
> Scott


 
Scott, wedging a leaner is very complicated. It doesn't sound like it at first, but there are many, many variables to consider. Wind, %/° of lean, wood fiber quality, tree size, core rot, etc. The list goes on and on.

Wedging is also math. If a wedge is 1 1/2" at the back, and it's fully driven, it can only move a tree on it's z axis a certain amount. One must get a feel for how much a single wedge moves a tree, or sit down for 10 minutes and do the calcs. You also have to know how much back-lean is too much to overcome safely with wedges.

It sounds to me like your tree would have been a good candidate for a 'rope & pull'. I'll come back in a few with some illustrations.


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## joesawer (Jan 1, 2011)

I agree with everything Metals said.

Don't get in over your head.

If you where able to pull the wedge out you probably did not have much pressure on it.
You can stack two wedges but you run a greater risk of spitting them out. Three high is generally considered unacceptable.
You can also place a wedge closer to the hinge and get more movement at the top of the tree but less lifting power. A double in the back and a single closer to the hinge is often a good combination.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 1, 2011)

Joesawyer is right.

Not to mention that re-cutting a faced and backcut tree should be a last option, I'd probably even put it behind a safe pusher tree option. Re-cut trees have a tendency to break vertically between the new backcut and the original cuts causing a spin/roll/hingeless fall and a little hunk of barberchair coming in to play as well, the length between the two faces. Sometimes it works, sometimes there are surprises, that option deserves close attention and quick feet.


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## 371groundie (Jan 1, 2011)

if the tree is large enough you can put a wedge in the side of the tree closer to your hinge. it will push the tree farther. now this is tricky becasue too much pressure from the wedge can pop the hinge. 

i like the tripple taper wedges that really swell at the back. ive tried to make my own a couple times. even keep a couple butt ends of broken wedges that will just give that extra little nudge. 

how big was the tree? ive had trees 2ft on the butt that i used wedges to get stood straight and then pushed over by hand.


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## Metals406 (Jan 1, 2011)

These illustrations would be in a perfect world, so take them for what they are. They're just an illustration to help understand the math involved. They are also rough, so all you armchair Einsteins can sit back down.  But if you see a legit flaw, point it out, I ain't scared! 

So if you have a tree that's dead-nuts vertical, a 1 1/2" wedge "may" give you around 5° of lift. That means you can move the top 0f a 70' tree 6'(ish).

Now add 6' of back-lean, and your wedge just got you vertical. That's if your hold-wood can sustain all that abuse of compression and tension.

As said before, the closer the lift contact point (back of wedge) is to the pivot point (the hinge). . . The more lift can be achieved.

How do you determine back-lean? One of the easiest ways is to stand back and plumb the top of the tree to the ground. Memorize where the plum-bob was on the ground, and measure the distance. Now knowing the hight of the tree is a bonus -- I won't get into how to figure that out -- there's lots of posts about it here and online.












I would say in reality, if I saw a 20"/ 70' tree with 6'+ of back-lean, I would strongly evaluate the soundness of the wood, and how windy it was. Would you get a full-on 6' of jack? I'd say if you single wedged and saw 4' you were doing good. 

At that point, if you felt the wood was good, you could consider a double stack and one closer to the hinge, or a single and a pull rope.

In the end, listen to your gut!!!! If your tummy says, "I don't know if I can do this safely?", listen to him and take him out for a burger and fries!


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## sdhershey (Jan 2, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> Joesawyer is right.
> 
> Not to mention that re-cutting a faced and backcut tree should be a last option, I'd probably even put it behind a safe pusher tree option. Re-cut trees have a tendency to break vertically between the new backcut and the original cuts causing a spin/roll/hingeless fall and a little hunk of barberchair coming in to play as well, the length between the two faces. Sometimes it works, sometimes there are surprises, that option deserves close attention and quick feet.



The tree did indeed roll and spin off the stump, becuase there really was no hinge. Luckily, I was on the up hill side of the tree and it spun downhill, so I made it out fine.



371groundie said:


> if the tree is large enough you can put a wedge in the side of the tree closer to your hinge. it will push the tree farther. now this is tricky becasue too much pressure from the wedge can pop the hinge.
> 
> i like the tripple taper wedges that really swell at the back. ive tried to make my own a couple times. even keep a couple butt ends of broken wedges that will just give that extra little nudge.
> 
> how big was the tree? ive had trees 2ft on the butt that i used wedges to get stood straight and then pushed over by hand.



The tree was fairly tall, and about 12-14 inches at the base. It wasn't a real monster at all.


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## huskyhank (Jan 2, 2011)

Be careful. Those "small" trees can hurt you. As someone recently wrote here: "a small tree makes a huge club" or something like that. I think you just got lucky this time.


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## madrone (Jan 2, 2011)

Pretty much everything said above is right on.
I can sum it up pretty easily based on my experience.

If a tree has a noticeable lean to it and you want to fall it opposite that lean, you almost always need to *pull it* the direction you want it to go. 
Rarely will a wedge offer you enough lift to work opposite a strong lean. Experienced loggers have techniques and tools to offer more lift (jacks and wedges) but I think most of the time you have to pull it down to drop it accurately.

BTW, Today I dropped a strong leaning alder 90 degrees to the lean with a chain and no wedge.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 2, 2011)

If you're logging, unless you're just poking around with a cable machine and can pull a tree with it, pulling trees is not an option-- time to rig, packing that crap in and out....
If you want or need everything cut in lead, just cut it backwards to the lead and atleast its still all nice and parallel. Or #### it and dump it and move the hell on. #### the hookers. They'll get it out one way or another....


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## forestryworks (Jan 2, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> If you want or need everything cut in lead, just cut it backwards to the lead and at least its still all nice and parallel.



Good point.


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## 2dogs (Jan 2, 2011)

A 12" -14" tree is about the worst size to work on. It is too big and heavy to man handle and too small for effective wedging. Probably most deaths (amateurs) is in this size range, like happened here a week ago. Add a throw bag and an aborist rope like Samson Treemaster in 1/2" by 150' to your arsenal for these situations. Set the rope as high as you can and tie off the tree tight. Once you have made your cuts and set wedges the go to the rope and pull down or sideways to fall the tree. Don't walk under the faced tree and always have an escape route from your pull sight. You can even tension the tree before cutting it by suspending some heavy rounds mid way up the rope that will exert constant pull on the tree.

Some trees you will just need to walk away from and have an expert take them down. Learn the basics before you tackle hazard trees.


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## FSburt (Jan 3, 2011)

"In the end, listen to your gut!!!! If your tummy says, "I don't know if I can do this safely?", listen to him and take him out for a burger and fries!"


Like this quote.


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## sdhershey (Jan 3, 2011)

Alright, Thanks for all the help guys. I'll take all this info into equation next time I find a real tricky leaner. And maybe I'll have to bring in the pro's next time if if my gut tells me to leave the tree alone.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 4, 2011)

Although most leaners should be felled in the most safe manner possible, sometimes smaller ones can be felled against the lean with wedges.
Wedging is an art in itself. If the wedging only manages to stand the tree up somewhat, it can be felled against the lean by starting a new undercut and further wedging, but to prevent vertical splitting, the new undercut should be at least the dia. of the tree higher than the first undercut.
Safety, the value of the timber and ease of extraction should be the main consideration when deciding where the tree is gonna lay.
John


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## sdhershey (Jan 4, 2011)

Yukonsawman said:


> Although most leaners should be felled in the most safe manner possible, sometimes smaller ones can be felled against the lean with wedges.
> Wedging is an art in itself. If the wedging only manages to stand the tree up somewhat, it can be felled against the lean by starting a new undercut and further wedging, but to prevent vertical splitting, the new undercut should be at least the dia. of the tree higher than the first undercut.
> Safety, the value of the timber and ease of extraction should be the main consideration when deciding where the tree is gonna lay.
> John



That's a real good idea about making a second undercut...maybe I'll give it a try next time I have this problem.


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## bitzer (Jan 4, 2011)

Yukonsawman said:


> Although most leaners should be felled in the most safe manner possible, sometimes smaller ones can be felled against the lean with wedges.
> Wedging is an art in itself. If the wedging only manages to stand the tree up somewhat, it can be felled against the lean by starting a new undercut and further wedging, but to prevent vertical splitting, the new undercut should be at least the dia. of the tree higher than the first undercut.
> Safety, the value of the timber and ease of extraction should be the main consideration when deciding where the tree is gonna lay.
> John


 
Sometimes you really confuse the hell out of me John. Cutting a second undercut? Why? Thats a lot of screwin' around under the tree.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 4, 2011)

bitzercreek1 said:


> Sometimes you really confuse the hell out of me John. Cutting a second undercut? Why? Thats a lot of screwin' around under the tree.


 
True, it takes a bit more time, but it can be done, and you'll feel proud of yourself when it's on the ground.
It's not really refalling the tree, but similar. Refalling is when the lean is misjudged and then refalling 180 degrees, given that your saw isn't pinched.
Refalling sometimes constitutes trees that are tied together that should fall together. Sometimes a pusher tree should be implimented, but then this smacks of dominoe falling, which is relatively safe if you know where your holding wood is or a nearby hoe. Just say no to teepees. Lol
John


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## bitzer (Jan 5, 2011)

Yukonsawman said:


> True, it takes a bit more time, but it can be done, and you'll feel proud of yourself when it's on the ground.
> It's not really refalling the tree, but similar. Refalling is when the lean is misjudged and then refalling 180 degrees, given that your saw isn't pinched.
> Refalling sometimes constitutes trees that are tied together that should fall together. Sometimes a pusher tree should be implimented, but then this smacks of dominoe falling, which is relatively safe if you know where your holding wood is or a nearby hoe. Just say no to teepees. Lol
> John


 
I know it can be done, just that it doesn't have to be. Make sure you use a conventional with your driver. 

I've wedged some pretty decent sized trees against the lean. Thats what they're there for.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2011)

bitzercreek1 said:


> Sometimes you really confuse the hell out of me John. Cutting a second undercut? Why? Thats a lot of screwin' around under the tree.


 
I wondered about that too. What if you didn't match your cuts or a big gust of wind came up? I can see where it might be okay on smaller trees but I think I'd give it a good leaving alone if there were any other choices.

Pictures of that second undercut might help us understand it better.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 6, 2011)

Bob, although I've only done this a few times, it's just a variation of refalling a tree.
Fully driven wedges as you know dont always commit the tree over, so starting a new undercut and backcut with wedges above the first one will put it over.
The only danger other than a stiff wind, is vertical spitting from the second to the first undercut if the second undercut is not high enough above the first one.
When I get back in the bush I'll do a vid if I can find the ideal stem.
Other than refalling the tree, it's all that can be resorted to, as opposed to trying to get the driven wedges out of the first undercut.
Other than that, backing into the tree with the log arch of skidder seems to smarten it up too.
John


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## farmboy53 (Aug 21, 2014)

I use the wedge to keep the bar from getting pinched. Remember if the wind blows the wedge can fall out, as the tree starts forward out it comes only to have the wind bring the tree back with no wedge. If the tree has a back lean and the wedge falls out as described the saw gets pinched, the hinge breaks and major damage may occur. The wedge is no guarantee. If the tree has a back lean and you attempt to use a wedge to lift, while pounding you can break the hinge.


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