# I have an idea on how to get rid of coals faster. What you think?



## chadihman (Jan 8, 2015)

I have a quadra fire 5700 wood stove and I love my burn times and heat output. My problem is I'm accumulating cherry red coals faster than I can burn them now that it's cold and I'm feeding the stove full.
My wife and I work away so I build big fires in the am and before bed. My stove puts out a lot of heat throughout the secondary burn of the gasses but after that I have charred pieces of wood that need more air to deplete them and get more heat from them. 
I want to hook an electric actuator to my air control and control it with a digital timer. I'd set it so after five hours give or take the actuator would power up and open my air control while I'm at work. Then I wouldn't have try to burn so many coals down before loading again.


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## laynes69 (Jan 8, 2015)

Look into the smart stove controller. It's not cheap (around 300.00), but it controls the air supply throughout the entire burn. I've considered it for our furnace, but our air control does well.


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## flotek (Jan 8, 2015)

I would not recommend this on an open forum because people aren't responsible ..but if you open up the air control and then crack the door open about 1/8 of an inch it will super heat the coals and burn them off . Of coarse operating a wood burner with the door not sealed is dangerous


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## WoodTick007 (Jan 8, 2015)

What type of wood are you burning? Maple?


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## aarolar (Jan 8, 2015)

Wish I had this problem...


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## chadihman (Jan 8, 2015)

Ash and oak


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## TBrown (Jan 8, 2015)

I have the same stove and understand your problem. I find the best thing is to just burn off the coals in the evening with extra air. If I do this before loading at night I am fairly good in the morning before work. I am heating 2600 ft solely with the 5700 and its been below zero all week.


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## TBrown (Jan 8, 2015)

An idea. I think some of the Wi-Fi little security camera set ups have digital outputs. You could check the stove by video and trigger a actuator to open the air during the day.


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## chadihman (Jan 8, 2015)

TBrown said:


> An idea. I think some of the Wi-Fi little security camera set ups have digital outputs. You could check the stove by video and trigger a actuator to open the air during the day.


We must think alike. I've been also thinking about that.


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## TBrown (Jan 8, 2015)

Small air cylinder and solenoid would work slick on the start up air slide. Then you could turn it off to conserve coals. I work all day with industrial control so it is second nature.


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## Del_ (Jan 8, 2015)

Wouldn't it be smarter to electronically control the air supply based on room temperature?


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)




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## NSMaple1 (Jan 9, 2015)

aarolar said:


> Wish I had this problem...


 
It's not really a good problem to have.

Is the house cooling off during this coal period? If so, you are pretty well up against it and will not have much choice but to shovel out some of those coals at some point so you can get more fresh fuel in there. Which along with being dangerous, also wastes potential fuel. If not, there's not much more you can do beside pull them ahead & open your air & wait. A piece of softwood on top might help.

Pass the popcorn, dude....


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## sledge&wedge (Jan 9, 2015)

flotek said:


> I would not recommend this on an open forum because people aren't responsible ..but if you open up the air control and then crack the door open about 1/8 of an inch it will super heat the coals and burn them off . Of coarse operating a wood burner with the door not sealed is dangerous



I am guilty of doing this on occasion, but only when I am going to be in the living room with the stove for a while after I crack the door open. It does work, but I wouldn't call it "safe" or "efficient."


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## dave_dj1 (Jan 9, 2015)

I am having the same problem in these cold temps. I have a manual timer on my draft so I rake 'em up, set the timer for 60 min and repeat as necessary. If I don't have the time for that in the morning I just fill with wood and do it when I get home. Coldest we've had in the house so far is 71*. I too would like to have some way of opening the draft independent of me. My draft is hooked to a thermostat but unless I move the thermostat or turn it all the way up it pretty much never does anything, that is why I put in the manual timer, I load, set timer and walk away. So far (after two seasons) this method has worked great. I could probably set a timer to open the draft later in the day as I have it down to the hour when I need to reload. I may look into it and try it on a weekend when I'm going to be around.


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)




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## midwest_170 (Jan 9, 2015)

What you need is a grate. I had the same problem you are talking about until I put a grate in my stove. If I want I can burn all the coals down to fine ash. I haven't taken a single piece of charcoal out of the stove since I installed the grate. My stove is probably about 30% to 50% more efficient now also.


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## chadihman (Jan 9, 2015)

Whitespider said:


>


Get lost in the 50's


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## chadihman (Jan 9, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> It's not really a good problem to have.
> 
> Is the house cooling off during this coal period? If so, you are pretty well up against it and will not have much choice but to shovel out some of those coals at some point so you can get more fresh fuel in there. Which along with being dangerous, also wastes potential fuel. If not, there's not much more you can do beside pull them ahead & open your air & wait. A piece of softwood on top might help.
> 
> Pass the popcorn, dude....


Yes the house is cooling while I'm trying to burn coals. Yesterday I shoveled coals into a metal bucket with some ash in the bottom. I did it quickly and put a lid on it and took it outside asap and placed on the snow. I need air sooner or more air later.


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## chadihman (Jan 9, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> What you need is a grate. I had the same problem you are talking about until I put a grate in my stove. If I want I can burn all the coals down to fine ash. I haven't taken a single piece of charcoal out of the stove since I installed the grate. My stove is probably about 30% to 50% more efficient now also.


Seems like it would be a pain in the azz to clean the ashes out.


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)




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## woodchuck357 (Jan 9, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Yes the house is cooling while I'm trying to burn coals. Yesterday I shoveled coals into a metal bucket with some ash in the bottom. I did it quickly and put a lid on it and took it outside asap and placed on the snow. I need air sooner or more air later.


If you have an air tight can/lid, the can of coals can stay in the house. You don't loose all of the heat and when the coals cool they can be saved for BBQ next summer.
The grate is removed for ash removal, I use a similar ploy in one of my ladies stove. Next summer the front portion of the floor will be cut away and an ash box with a door and a draft control will be welded to the bottom.


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## kingOFgEEEks (Jan 9, 2015)

I hate to say it, but I think your best bet is to load a little less wood and open the air a little more, to burn the coals down. For example, add a small amount of wood and open up the air when you get home from work, which should give you fewer coals and a warm house when you load at bedtime. Every stove/furnace is different, so you will have to play with it to figure out what is best, I think.


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> *What you need is a grate.
> ...Next summer the front portion of the floor will be cut away and an ash box with a door and a draft control will be welded to the bottom.*


I've owned my first, last, and only firebox without a coal grate and primary air being directly fed under it.
No air under the fire, especially a bed of coals, is flat ridiculous... plain stupid really.
*


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## TBrown (Jan 9, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I've owned my first, last, and only firebox without a coal grate and primary air being directly fed under it.
> No air under the fire, especially a bed of coals, is flat ridiculous... plain stupid really.
> *


Move on along then. I like burning about 2/3 face cord a week in sub zero weather.


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 9, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I've owned my first, last, and only firebox without a coal grate and primary air being directly fed under it.
> No air under the fire, especially a bed of coals, is flat ridiculous... plain stupid really.
> *


If something doesn't work as I want, I change it or get rid of it. Adding a grate and ash box under the stove doesn't change the way it works when the draft in it is closed, it just adds another level of control when it is needed.


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## midwest_170 (Jan 9, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Seems like it would be a pain in the azz to clean the ashes out.



It hinges in the center. I just shove the coals to the back half, flip the grate up and scoop out ashes, put the grate back down and spread coals out. Takes about 2 mins to clean out and have a fire going.


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## TBrown (Jan 9, 2015)

woodchuck357 said:


> If something doesn't work as I want, I change it or get rid of it. Adding a grate and ash box under the stove doesn't change the way it works when the draft in it is closed, it just adds another level of control when it is needed.


With the quadra fire this wouldn't be that hard. There already is a hole in the bottom center for an ash door. Would need to build a new air tight ash box with a air control and then replace the trap door with a grate, would work fairly well I think.


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 9, 2015)

The hole in the stove floor is the easiest part of the rework!


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## brenndatomu (Jan 9, 2015)

Whitespider said:


>


I'm readin down through here and I see this, I thought "Uh oh" 



Whitespider said:


>


Then I see this and I thought "this is gotta be eatin him alive" 



Whitespider said:


>


 Then this one..."oh man, he's about to pop!" 

And then...there it is! 


Whitespider said:


> I've owned my first,
> No air under the fire, especially a bed of coals, is flat ridiculous... plain stupid really.
> *


 And it took almost all day, I would have lost that bet!  Spidey must LIVE for January when over and over again, these new fangled stoves are provin him right!


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## chadihman (Jan 9, 2015)

TBrown said:


> With the quadra fire this wouldn't be that hard. There already is a hole in the bottom center for an ash door. Would need to build a new air tight ash box with a air control and then replace the trap door with a grate, would work fairly well I think.


Wow man we do think alike. I was going to make a sealed box under mine this past summer. Never got around to it.


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> *Spidey must LIVE for January...*


 Today is my Birthday man... I get a gimmie‼
*


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## chadihman (Jan 9, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Today is my Birthday man... I get a gimmie‼
> *


Happy b day man


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks chadihman


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## Whitespider (Jan 9, 2015)

TBrown said:


> *Move on along then. I like burning about 2/3 face cord a week in sub zero weather.*


What's a face cord??

Oh... and no‼ You move on if'n ya' want.
*


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## jwilly (Jan 9, 2015)

Face cord = local measurement of wood volume in the Northeast. 32sf pile of whatever length. Face cord of 48" wood = 1 regular cord, face cord of 16" wood = 1/3 regular cord.


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## olyman (Jan 9, 2015)

Whitespider said:


>


 you got that right, spidey.....same thing del bashed you for,, and a few others.............


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## brenndatomu (Jan 9, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Happy b day man


+1! Here, I'll sing Happy Birthday for ya  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...rIH4Aw&usg=AFQjCNHokVf6l4IYWfarB3YTCn3pkClW-Q


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## olyman (Jan 9, 2015)

TBrown said:


> Move on along then. I like burning about 2/3 face cord a week in sub zero weather.


 for serious???


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## TBrown (Jan 9, 2015)

olyman said:


> for serious???


Serious about what?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 9, 2015)

people up north would laugh about how we define wood its called a rick here.


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## Whitespider (Jan 10, 2015)

jwilly said:


> *Face cord = local measurement of wood volume in the Northeast. 32sf pile of whatever length. Face cord of 48" wood = 1 regular cord, face cord of 16" wood = 1/3 regular cord.*


So, a face cord ain't anything... yet, it's everything?? It can be anything the person using the term wants it to be??
If he cuts his firewood to 6-inches a face cord equals 1/8 of a cord.
But if he cuts his firewood to 12-inches a face cord equals 1/4 of a cord.
Or if he cuts his firewood to 24-inches a face cord equals 1/2 of a cord.
But if he cuts his firewood to 48-inches a face cord equals 1 full cord.
So, if I have three face cords and I don't think that will be enough to last all winter... all I have to do if I wanna' double my supply is cut all the splits in half?? Yup... that should do it... 6 face cords should be more than enough 
And here I thought no air under the fire was plain stupid... "face cord" makes that look like an Eisenstein invention.

Hmmm... a "face cord" must be for people who can't cut two pieces of firewood to a length within 12 inches of each other... meaning they have no fiiggin' clue how much wood they have, or how much they burn. But I guess it must sound really cool to say...


TBrown said:


> *Move on along then. I like burning about 2/3 face cord a week in sub zero weather.*


...even though that might be a wheelbarrow full, or a tandem axle dump truck full. I guess we'll just never know... will we??

Still... 2/3 face cord sounds like an awful lot to me.
Heck, I only burned a ¼ dingle-berry this week... last week I didn't even burn a ½ schlump
*


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 10, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Wow man we do think alike. I was going to make a sealed box under mine this past summer. Never got around to it.


I remodeled one last summer and had to pay a lot more for the ash door than planed because I had everything else done and put off finishing until cold was almost on us. I saved a little welding by using one piece of steel bent in a wide U for the bottom and sides and welded the back and front on to it. 
If you make such a modification, have the box complete with door and draft before doing anything to the stove!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 10, 2015)

http://inveninc.com/faq/

Stove controller mentioned earlier.


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## 1project2many (Jan 10, 2015)

jwilly said:


> Face cord = local measurement of wood volume in the Northeast. 32sf pile of whatever length. Face cord of 48" wood = 1 regular cord, face cord of 16" wood = 1/3 regular cord.



I've lived in two New England states and I'd never heard of a face cord until I joined AS.

In the barn I *might* soak a piece of Pine in some used veggie oil then throw it in the stove. Coals can go away pretty fast once there's a hot fire in the stove.


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## jwilly (Jan 10, 2015)

Talking with some really old timers years ago I asked why they used face cords to measure their wood. I was told it wasn't really about how much wood was in the pile but how much work was involved to produce that 32sf pile. Keep in mind that they were cutting without chainsaws and splitting by hand so when you bought a face cord you were paying for the labor not the wood. The term just stuck around. In my area a 16" wood is pretty much the standard length in a face cord. There are people who will order face cords of 10" wood to use in their cook stoves and it is the same price as 16" wood. Face cords are already cut and split, if you order a cord of wood around here it could be 32sf of 48" or 16sf of 96" wood. Confusing to say the least.


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## MarylandGuy (Jan 11, 2015)

I would assume you are raking your coals forward prior to reload. If not, that could be part of your problem. I also found in the past when I burned wood that wasn't quite seasoned, the coaling was a lot worse. Now that I have seen the light and wait three years before burning oak, excessive coaling issues are a thing of the past for me.


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## Whitespider (Jan 11, 2015)

MarylandGuy said:


> *I also found in the past when I burned wood that wasn't quite seasoned, the coaling was a lot worse. Now that I have seen the light and wait three years before burning oak...*


That's been brought up before, but no matter how hard and long I think about it, I flat ain't seeing how, or why, that would make coaling worse. I mean... we're not even talkin' about "green" wood, we're talkin' "_wood that wasn't quite seasoned_". Heck, any moisture would be boiled off long before the coaling stage... way long before. And the issue (at least for me) ain't the coaling itself, it's the sharp reduction in heat output during the coaling stage. The reason the heat output is reduced is because the coals burn so slow, and worse yet, the buried ones hardly burn at all. The reduction in heat output requires adding more wood... which makes more coals... which buries more coals... which get smothered and stop heating. Well... there ain't no moisture in those coals, it's long gone, so how is it possible that wood not "_quite seasoned_" contributes to that??

The truth is... in my experiences... the opposite is true. The "wetter" the wood is, the fewer coals you get because it burns slower and cooler. Think of pulling off the layers of an onion, one layer at a time... that's sort'a how wet wood burns, one layer at a time. Naaa... the issue ain't wood that ain't "_quite seasoned_", the issue is way simpler than that... it's a lack of oxygen getting to (or into) the coal bed. It's totally ridiculous to expect air to come in from over the top and make its way "into" the coal bed... it flat ain't gonna'. When that air makes contact with the coals laying on top its gonna' heat up... and hot air rises... away from the coal bed. The reason there's a coaling issue is because the coals don't burn (or they burn way to slow)... they don't burn because they're starving for oxygen... and it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Using primary air as an air wash for a glass door is pretty and such, and secondary burn design is great when it's active, but neither one is the answer. They're like putting band-aids on your two-year-old's boo-bo0; it ain't really needed, but he believes it makes things feel better.... he believes in the magic.
*


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2015)

Another good solution is to just burn pine or spruce as there is nil to no coaling. That's all we got here and we had 72 degrees of frost here last week.
It's ok to pound away. Lol


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## noshow74 (Jan 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Another good solution is to just burn pine or spruce as there is nil to no coaling. That's all we got here and we had 72 degrees of frost here last week.
> It's ok to pound away. Lol



I burn alot of pine and your right minimal to no coals lol. I get alot of coaling at night when I burn oak. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


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## 1project2many (Jan 11, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> the issue ain't wood that ain't "_quite seasoned_", the issue is way simpler than that... it's a lack of oxygen getting to (or into) the coal bed. It's totally ridiculous to expect air to come in from over the top and make its way "into" the coal bed... it flat ain't gonna'.


I'm still working with the barn stove. It behaves differently than the house stove for certain. I'm having good luck by watching the mixture of coals and wood and I'm using smaller pieces of wood when I add it. Blocks of pine and spruce along with small splits of fast burning hardwood works much better than large splits. As the wood breaks down to coals in the 3'4" range I mix them up and throw in the new pieces. Last night as temps were dropping from the day's high of 19 down to about 6 by 7pm, I was surprised to notice a temp difference between the open part of the barn and the area where the stove is. When I tried to open the stove door to add wood I needed to move dang quick or put on gloves due to the heat. That thing was definitely hot.




Whitespider said:


> Using primary air as an air wash for a glass door is pretty and such, and secondary burn design is great when it's active, but neither one is the answer. They're like putting band-aids on your two-year-old's boo-bo0; it ain't really needed, but he believes it makes things feel better.... he believes in the magic.


I'm not finding the barn stove impossible to use. I am finding it to be very different from old designs. It seems to require more frequent refueling but wants less fuel per refill. Overall it doesn't seem to use as much fuel as the old stoves to make heat but it took a while to get it really, really hot. It probably would be a pain to use if it were in the house. 

What's funny is that the people who like their EPA stoves are saying you must be doing something wrong despite the number of times you've said otherwise, and you seem to be convinced people having good luck are just brainwashed. After using two different stoves with two very different personalities, it's apparent that all EPA stoves do not work the same. I'm wondering if you've just got a bum stove.


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## Cpeder (Jan 11, 2015)

Get a nest thermostat u can also hook a wifi camera into the nest system I'm told. I may just be doing this so I can control my damper by changing thermostat temps.


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## Whitespider (Jan 11, 2015)

I don't believe "brainwashed" is the appropriate descriptive 1project2many... but maybe it is??
Let's look at what you just posted...


1project2many said:


> *I'm having good luck by watching the mixture of coals and wood and I'm using smaller pieces of wood when I add it. Blocks of pine and spruce along with small splits of fast burning hardwood works much better than large splits...
> I'm not finding the barn stove impossible to use. I am finding it to be very different from old designs. It seems to require more frequent refueling but wants less fuel per refill. Overall it doesn't seem to use as much fuel as the old stoves to make heat but it took a while to get it really, really hot. It probably would be a pain to use if it were in the house.*


I don't find mine to be "impossible" to use either (out in the shop)... but, just as you say, it is a pain. Also, like you, I have to reload more often with smaller stuff to keep coaling from getting out'a hand. I can't say positively it uses less wood (less than what??)... and even your statement that it "doesn't seem to" ain't all that positive either. And yes... mine also seems to take a long time to get hot, so it really pizzes-me-off to haf'ta let it burn out for ash cleaning.

Obviously you ain't brainwashed, you ain't preaching the oft heard mantra... "twice the heat, longer burn times, half the wood" 
Assuming it does use a little less wood... does that, as the "brainwashed" claim, automatically make it better?? Is it worth the trade-off??
Mine likes splits somewhere 'round ¼-½ the size I've made for years. Heck man, think about it, that's a lot of extra work... like 2-4 times more splitting, stacking, handling in general. The "brainwashed" claim longer burn times... but like you, I find myself reloading more often, a lot more often (this is likely because there's a big difference between "burn" time and "heating" time). And don't discount trips to the box to fiddle with it... raking coals, making adjustments, shoveling out ashes (which requires letting the stove burn out with most of 'em).

Using a little less wood is nice and all... but (for me) it ain't worth the trade-off, not even close. It certainly ain't "better", not even close. Maybe "brainwashed" is the correct descriptive... brainwashed into believing less wood and burning smoke is _automatically_ better no matter what the cost.
Like my signature says... burning it should be the easy part.
*


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## greenskeeper (Jan 11, 2015)

easiest way to get rid of coals......open draft, crack door open.....drink 2-6 beers and coals are gone ready for wood.


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## Whitespider (Jan 11, 2015)

greenskeeper said:


> *easiest way to get rid of coals...*


Easiest??
Ummm... wouldn't it be "easier" to just have a box that didn't require a "method" to "get rid" of coals??
Just sayin'.
*


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## 1project2many (Jan 11, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Obviously you ain't brainwashed, you ain't preaching the oft heard mantra... "twice the heat, longer burn times, half the wood"



Well... I could be brainwashed. I haven't dropped off the grid and stopped supporting the pay to work model that funds the gubbermint. But I learned long ago to discern between marketing and reality. Free lunches are always suspect. So is the guy offering them.



Whitespider said:


> even your statement that it "doesn't seem to" ain't all that positive either.


No. I have no way to measure exactly. It's a comparison with what I remember from two other shops heated with wood, and with the amount of wood I expected to burn in the barn. I'm knocking my splits down to 1/2 - 1/4 traditional size also. I do it in the shop as I need them so it doesn't feel like a bunch of extra work. But it is. It's just that the PITA factor is spread out over several hours each day I burn.



> Assuming it does use a little less wood... does that, as the "brainwashed" claim, automatically make it better?? Is it worth the trade-off??


I don't know any disciples of the Church of EPA Stovology. Folks I know with EPA stoves in the house seem happy with the way they work. My number one complaint with the house stove is that effective heating time is not as long as a traditional airtight stove. But I am keeping the house warm with significantly less wood and I don't seem to have the same issues as in the barn. For me it's an acceptable tradeoff.

I've gotta go refuel the barn stove.


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## Whitespider (Jan 11, 2015)

1project2many said:


> *My number one complaint with the house stove is that effective heating time is not as long as a traditional airtight stove.*


Yeah... that was my number one also... _effective_ heating time.
*


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## GVS (Jan 11, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I've owned my first, last, and only firebox without a coal grate and primary air being directly fed under it.
> No air under the fire, especially a bed of coals, is flat ridiculous... plain stupid really.
> *


Well W/S I've owned and operated with a grate and without.Kept warm with both.Melting the coals down is easy if you know how and you should know how since it's been stated here many times.I've warped two sets of grates in two different stoves. I know of several more grates that have been destroyed,and had to be replaced.I've NEVER melted the fire bricks or even cracked a brick in a stove with no grate.
Primary air passing over the fire or contacting the fire down low is a long way from stupid.Except to you,of course>


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## chadihman (Jan 11, 2015)

greenskeeper said:


> easiest way to get rid of coals......open draft, crack door open.....drink 2-6 beers and coals are gone ready for wood.


Yes but my house is cooling and its hard to get it back. I figured out that in those mounds of coals is lots of ash. The coals cant burn well with all the ash plugging the airways to the coals. I uses my long ash shovel and go to the bottom and push it to the back when I pull it out I shake it a bit and I have a shovel full of mostly ash. I do this till those no more ash then the coals go quickly especially with a couple small pieces on top in the front. I do this every other day and its been working great.


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## Cpeder (Jan 12, 2015)

Try loading your stove with alternating direction like a log cabin. Leave gaps around all the pieces for better combustion. I've done this a few times and works great when I load this way. Hard to see in my picture but smaller splits 3 on bottom 3 on top perpendicular and 3 more on top of that. Smaller splits. Still burns just a long for me.


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## Whitespider (Jan 12, 2015)

GVS said:


> *Melting the coals down is easy if you know how and you should know how since it's been stated here many times.
> Primary air passing over the fire or contacting the fire down low is a long way from stupid. Except to you,of course*


Yes, I've read and tried all the different methods used by various members here, some work better than others, all require some amount of screwin' 'round while the house is cooling off... that, my friend, is stupid.
Because the severity of the coaling issue increases with heat demand, I necessarily need to be "melting" the coals when heat is needed most and the house cools at its fastest rate... that, my friend, is stupid.
When the house cools it requires burning more wood at a faster rate to bring it back up to temperature, even more so when heat demand is high, which increases the severity of the coaling issue, which is the friggin' reason the house has cooled in the first place... that, my friend, is stupid.
Without a coal grate to keep them separated, the coals get mixed with ash, more so during high heat demand because you're burning more wood, which insulates them and prevents them from getting good air flow, which means more screwin' 'round to "melt" them, which means the house is cooling longer, which means burning more wood at a faster rate to bring it back up to temperature, which increases the severity of the of the coaling issue, which is the friggin' reason the house has cooled in the first place... that, my friend, is stupid.
To avoid all this screwin' round (which is stupid), the quick solution is to shovel out bucket loads of unburned fuel... flat meaning waste it... that, my friend, is stupid.

Now there's an easy, simple and intelligent solution to avoid all the screwin' 'round and idiocy... simply burn on a grate, allowing air to flow up through the coal bed, keeping it screamin' hot, as well as keeping the ash separated. Heck, you could still have secondary, you could even bring primary in from the top as air wash for a glass door... as long as the majority of it was then directed under the grate, which is entirely possible, and has been done in the past (but they wouldn't sell... people wouldn't pay the extra for a glass door and necessary air wash). But the problem is... such a system won't pass the ridiculous, one-size-fits-all, EPA particulate emissions standard... which appear will become even more restrictive over the next few years. See... when air flows up through a grate, and up through a fire, some fine ash is carried with it... it is ash, not unburned fuel, it won't be consumed by common secondary combustion... but it is a particulate emission. It's important to keep in mind that EPA regulations are based on emissions, not efficiency... not combustion efficiency, not heating efficiency, not any efficiency, just emissions.



> *I've warped two sets of grates in two different stoves. I know of several more grates that have been destroyed,and had to be replaced.I've NEVER melted the fire bricks or even cracked a brick in a stove with no grate.*


I warped a grate once... it was over 20-years-old... but I've never melted or destroyed one. Will your secondary baffle/tubes or firebrick last 20 years?? Funny thing... I see replacement firebrick on sale at stove and big-box stores all the time... but I near never see the replacement stove grates even sitting on the shelf, let alone on sale (I do see open fireplace grates). I also read here on AS of people replacing brick all the time, sometimes after just one or two seasons. And, although I've also never melted one, something over half of the bricks in my EPA stove are cracked... some are even cracked into three or four pieces (and I've replaced some). As a side note, none of the bricks lining the sides of my smoke dragon furnace are cracked, which burns on a grate, but that's only after 1½ seasons... time will tell.
*


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## GVS (Jan 12, 2015)

It doesn't take a high IQ to realize burning paper,cardboard,wood or coal,you'er going to get coals and ash.Getting rid of them is not a big deal unless a person makes it so.
Red hot coals put out plenty of heat contrary to what you believe.If you have what looks like raw charcoal in the stove,put some air on them,they'll brighten right up.And be hotter than hell too.
On weekends I tend a wood fired hot water furnace for my brother. I put wood in between 10:30/11:00 PM.Refill around 7:00 AM.Mostly coals-water temp 140* to 150*,house temp 70* to 72*.Coals are great!
I'll tell you how fire brick get damaged -heaving wood into the stove or slamming them with a poker.Firebrick doesn't break when burning coal which is much hotter than wood. 
Your attitude and preaching of "my way or the highway" simply indicates ignorance on your part.Keep up the great work !


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## Whitespider (Jan 12, 2015)

GVS said:


> *Your attitude and preaching of "my way or the highway" simply indicates ignorance on your part. Keep up the great work !*


That ain't my "attitude" at all. It ain't about the "highway", I'm "preaching" that I should have a *choice* (just as you should)... not restricted to what some ridiculously stupid one-size-fits-all federal regulation requires. If you're unable to discern the difference... you've got the "my way or the highway" attitude... not me.
*


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## GVS (Jan 12, 2015)

I've made my choice!I've owned both ,to include air enhanced,cat. w/secondary air,with and without grate.Each burns a little differently but they all heat well.Coal buildup in the greatless stoves and what it takes to get rid of same doesen't bother me a bit. 
Your comment regarding the availability of firebrick as opposed to grates can be explained this way:all the different heaters use a grate of a different size.Big box stores can't be expected to keep a thousand different grates in stock.Fire brick,on the other hand come in more or less standard sizes and there is only 3 or 4 standard sizes. Much easier to keep in stock.


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 12, 2015)

GVS said:


> It doesn't take a high IQ to realize burning paper,cardboard,wood or coal,you'er going to get coals and ash.Getting rid of them is not a big deal unless a person makes it so.
> Red hot coals put out plenty of heat contrary to what you believe.If you have what looks like raw charcoal in the stove,put some air on them,they'll brighten right up.And be hotter than hell too.
> On weekends I tend a wood fired hot water furnace for my brother. I put wood in between 10:30/11:00 PM.Refill around 7:00 AM.Mostly coals-water temp 140* to 150*,house temp 70* to 72*.Coals are great!
> I'll tell you how fire brick get damaged -heaving wood into the stove or slamming them with a poker.Firebrick doesn't break when burning coal which is much hotter than wood.
> Your attitude and preaching of "my way or the highway" simply indicates ignorance on your part.Keep up the great work !


 
That goes both ways.

I tended a wood/oil combo boiler in my house for 17 years. Hot coals don't put out near the heat that an active wood fire does. No way, no how. So whether they put out enough to be 'plenty' or not comes down to the particular situation. I also woke up to coals all those years, and when it was really cold out, I had a choice - spend the morning babysitting them to get them to burn down while the house cooled off, or empty most of them out & start with fresh fuel.

My new boiler leaves nothing behind but ashes. It burns through a grate - although backwards, from top to bottom. I am some glad I got rid of the old one.

The 'my way or the highway' could also apply to those who say excessive coaling is not an issue to anybody, and if it is it's their fault. It is also situationally dependant.


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## Cerran (Jan 12, 2015)

From the way the OP talks it's not that he can't burn the coals off, it's that he needs to crank open the primary air to get them to burn off. A grate isn't going to solve that and will in fact void the warranty on the stove.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 12, 2015)

Different wood has different coaling characteristics, and stacking/loading methods have an effect too. I stack my wood in alternating directions, with the lower row end-on to the door. This year I'm burning more hickory, which is wonderful but coals a lot more than ash. I built up some significant coals over several days of pretty cold temperatures and heavy burning of hickory. I shoveled out what ash I could from the front edge, raked out the coals, loaded it with tulip and let it rip with a bit more air than normal. That took care of quite a bit of the coals. 

An alternate way I get rid of them is to rake them to a pile/row in the middle, and place a split along each side. Then I stack the next layer up cross-wise as usual. The coals take the place of the center split I would usually place on the bottom row.


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## Whitespider (Jan 12, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *From the way the OP talks... A grate isn't going to solve that...*


Ummm... I believe it would solve that... and I base that on an actual experiment I tried with mine.
I removed the firebrick from the floor and installed a grate elevated about 1½ inches. I placed it so it was about 1 inch back from the short wall below the door, which allowed primary air/door air wash to flow down the door and under the grate (I also drilled a few holes to bring air directly in under the grate). The coaling issue disappeared completely (because air could flow up through the coals, instead of over the top), it made a lot more heat after secondary shut down (a lot more), and kept the ash separated from the coals. But an inch or two ain't a lot of room for ash, the space under the grate filled up way too fast, which blocked the air... and removing ash required lifting the grate out, which still required letting the stove burn out.

I thought about doing what woodchuck357 is doing... cutting the floor out and welding in an ash collection cavity with drawer. But the Spectrum air control gates (both primary and secondary) are under the floor, connected by linkage and cable to a single lever on the right side of the door frame... it would have required a complete re-engineering of the whole system. After reading his positive results, I may still do it this summer though... replace the glass door with steel plate and "peep" hole, remove or block-off the primary air wash, put the secondary air on a separate control, and install combustion air inlets in the ash collection cavity under the grate. That will give me the best of both worlds; secondary combustion during the first ¼ of the burn, but air under the grate to fully realize the coal bed potential after secondary shuts down... i.e., a much more even and longer lasting _effective_ heating time.
*


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## Del_ (Jan 12, 2015)

The grate in our Jotul F600CB takes up less than 50% of the bottom of the firebox. Below is the ash pan. We can tell how full the ash pan is by looking through the grate or when pushing coals around when adding wood. We don't have a coal buildup problem. Haven't had to clean the front door glass even once this season. Our wood is well seasoned.


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## Cerran (Jan 12, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Ummm... I believe it would solve that... and I base that on an actual experiment I tried with mine.
> I removed the firebrick from the floor and installed a grate elevated about 1½ inches. I placed it so it was about 1 inch back from the short wall below the door, which allowed primary air/door air wash to flow down the door and under the grate (I also drilled a few holes to bring air directly in under the grate). The coaling issue disappeared completely (because air could flow up through the coals, instead of over the top), it made a lot more heat after secondary shut down (a lot more), and kept the ash separated from the coals. But an inch or two ain't a lot of room for ash, the space under the grate filled up way too fast, which blocked the air... and removing ash required lifting the grate out, which still required letting the stove burn out.
> 
> I thought about doing what woodchuck357 is doing... cutting the floor out and welding in an ash collection cavity with drawer. But the Spectrum air control gates (both primary and secondary) are under the floor, connected by linkage and cable to a single lever on the right side of the door frame... it would have required a complete re-engineering of the whole system. After reading his positive results, I may still do it this summer though... replace the glass door with steel plate and "peep" hole, remove or block-off the primary air wash, put the secondary air on a separate control, and install combustion air inlets in the ash collection cavity under the grate. That will give me the best of both worlds; secondary combustion during the first ¼ of the burn, but air under the grate to fully realize the coal bed potential after secondary shuts down... i.e., a much more even and longer lasting _effective_ heating time.
> *



The Quadrafire is not the same design as your stove and the OP stated that he can get the coals to burn of by increasing the primary air indicating that the issue is the quantity of air being injected into the primary combustion zone once the volatiles from the wood have been driven off. Adding a grate isn't going to solve the issue of not enough oxygen to facilitate rapid combustion.


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## Whitespider (Jan 12, 2015)

You're really ain't catchin' on to this at all... are you Cerran?? I already know the problem is oxygen starvation... that's what I've been sayin'.

The "issue" is not getting the coals to burn... just like the OP, I can open the primary air (or crack the door) to get them to burn faster also.
The "issue" is avoiding the coaling "issue" altogether so the damn house don't cool off while you're screwin' 'round getting them to burn. Installing a grate puts air under the fire, flowing up through the fire, supplying the bottom of the fire with air first... the bottom of the fire where the coals ain't getting the air without the grate.

Installing a grate _ain't_ about burning the excessive coals _after_ they've formed... it's about eliminating the excessive coaling issue _before_ they form. Burning on a grate with air flowing up through it means the bottom coals burn the hottest and fastest, become ash and fall through the grate so the next level of coals become the bottom. An excessive amount of coals never (or rarely) has a chance to build up... you just keep loading fresh fuel on top as needed and the bottom burns first and fastest. The OP is talkin' about the same damn exact thing as I am, the same damn exact thing as anyone else with the "issue" is.

You're over thinkin' it... it don't take an engineer to figure it out... there's enough air gettin' into the box, but most of it never gets _into_ the coal bed, it's flowing _over_ the coal bed. Opening the air supplies more air to the box, meaning a _little_ more gets _into_ the coal bed... but a _whole lot_ more is still flowing _over it_, meaning it's just wasted air not being used for combustion... it just cools the box. A grate fixes that... because the air has to start at the bottom of the fire and flow up through it... *all* of the *air* through *all* of the *fire*‼


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## Whitespider (Jan 12, 2015)

Cerran,
Why do you suppose the bellows on a blacksmith forge are located under the coal bed??
Why don't they force the air over the top of the coal bed??
Think about it man... the grate accomplishes the same basic thing.
*


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## Cerran (Jan 12, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Cerran,
> Why do you suppose the bellows on a blacksmith forge are located under the coal bed??
> Why don't they force the air over the top of the coal bed??
> Think about it man... the grate accomplishes the same basic thing.
> *



A blacksmith forge and a wood stove are not the same thing. A forge is designed to make localized heat to apply to metals placed within the coals.

Your problem is you have decided you should be able to run a stove with basically no adjustments and that is not what a wood stove is designed for. When you reach the end of the gasification stage of combustion, you turn up the primary air to burn down the coal stage. Because of the nature of combustion (burning primarily carbon instead of hydrogen) the later stages of the fire require more oxygen for the same heat output which a grate isn't going to fix.

Hydrogen is 62,000 Btu/lb

Carbon is 14,600 Btu/lb

Thus you will need 4.24 times as much air to oxidize a pound of carbon and get the same heat output as a pound hydrogen (which is what the primary gas is in wet wood gasification)

As I said, the OP never claimed to have your exact issue with the coals not burning up, he has indicated they burn up fine provided the primary air is turned up.

You are assuming a grate will solve the issue with no evidence to support such an assumption.


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 12, 2015)

The difference between what I like in a stove and the way most epa cert stoves work is that I like to have a continous fire (add wood on top, take ashes out the bottom) and the epa stoves are batch burn.


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## Whitespider (Jan 12, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *Your problem is you have decided you should be able to run a stove with basically no adjustments and that is not what a wood stove is designed for.*


You mean your elitist stove ain't designed that way... my smoke dragons ran that way just fine, they were *designed* to run that way.
My problem is not how I've decided a stove should run... my problem is the way an elitist stove requires endless screwin' 'round with.


Cerran said:


> *As I said, the OP never claimed to have your exact issue with the coals not burning up, he has indicated they burn up fine provided the primary air is turned up.*


He did not indicate they burn just fine provided the primary air is turned up.
Here, let me reproduce part of the original post...


chadihman said:


> *My problem is I'm accumulating cherry red coals faster than I can burn them now that it's cold and I'm feeding the stove full.*


Which, by-the-way, is the exact same issue I complain about... the exact same friggin' issue‼


Cerran said:


> *You are assuming a grate will solve the issue with no evidence to support such an assumption.*


No evidence my aching azz... I specifically posted of an experiment I ran, with a grate, that in fact did solve the issue... the exact same friggin' issue‼ The evidence don't get any better than that.
You may also wanna' read posts from woodchuck357 in this and other threads where he solved the exact same friggin' issue (plus a few other irritating ones) by cutting out the floor, welding in an ash collection cavity, installing a grate, and adding air intake under it... and, I might add, in more than just one friggin' stove.
The evidence has been presented, you just ignore it for ideological reasons... you wanna' (or haf'ta) believe in the magic because of it.
It's the same reason you try and rearrange what was posted by the OP... ideology and the need to believe.




woodchuck357 said:


> *The difference between what I like in a stove and the way most epa cert stoves work is that I like to have a continous fire (add wood on top, take ashes out the bottom) and the epa stoves are batch burn.*


Yep... that flat sums it up... batch burn.
As serious heaters, most really are a stupid design. I mean, c'mon, just the fact ya' haf'ta let them burn near completely out to remove ashes...
*


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## midwest_170 (Jan 12, 2015)

The guys who don't think a grate would solve this problem have probably never owned a stove with a grate. I put a grate in my stove this year and it has solved several issues I had with my stove and excessive coals was one of them. My stove burns hotter for a longer period now. I only shovel out pure ash now, when before it was probably at least half burned out coals. I haven't lit my stove in 6 weeks and I'm gone for up to 11 hours at a time. I don't see how shoveling out coals can be more efficient than complete burns. My stove has secondary burn tube and my stove will have a secondary burn for 5 hours maybe more sometimes. I just don't see how a fire burning from the top down doesn't eventually smother itself out.


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> You mean your elitist stove ain't designed that way... my smoke dragons ran that way just fine, they were *designed* to run that way.
> My problem is not how I've decided a stove should run... my problem is the way an elitist stove requires endless screwin' 'round with.



Unless you are loading the stove every few hours, you will not get a consistent heat output on a constant supply of air with any stove, it's simple thermodynamics and heat transfer.

Making 1 maybe two adjustments over an 8-10 hour burn is endless screwing around with it?



Whitespider said:


> No evidence my aching azz... I specifically posted of an experiment I ran, with a grate, that in fact did solve the issue... the exact same friggin' issue‼ The evidence don't get any better than that.
> You may also wanna' read posts from woodchuck357 in this and other threads where he solved the exact same friggin' issue (plus a few other irritating ones) by cutting out the floor, welding in an ash collection cavity, installing a grate, and adding air intake under it... and, I might add, in more than just one friggin' stove.
> The evidence has been presented, you just ignore it for ideological reasons... you wanna' (or haf'ta) believe in the magic because of it.
> It's the same reason you try and rearrange what was posted by the OP... ideology and the need to believe.



So he added more air to it, which simply reinforces my point. The grate is not the issue. I haven't ignored anything WS, I simply am pointing out the science points to a different cause.



Whitespider said:


> Yep... that flat sums it up... batch burn.
> As serious heaters, most really are a stupid design. I mean, c'mon, just the fact ya' haf'ta let them burn near completely out to remove ashes...



And yet thousands of people heat their whole houses with no issues with them. You do realize any wood stove is a batch burn process right?


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## chadihman (Jan 13, 2015)

Just to mix things up I finally cleaned my SS chimney on Sunday. I burnt about four cord last year and another two cord + this year. I should have checked it earlier but it was just as I thought. It had maybe two cups worth of fly ash in it.


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## AIM (Jan 13, 2015)

Only got a sec to jump in here before work but I can say that air UNDER the fire doesn't always work like you think. Not spouting theory here. I have a few years of experience with this and not sure that air OVER the fire MIGHT be better in SOME appliances. I will get back on tonight and explain more.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *Unless you are loading the stove every few hours, you will not get a consistent heat output on a constant supply of air with any stove...*


What's every few hours?? What's consistent heat??
I never adjusted anything on my old smoke dragons once I got them set.
Unless it was butt crack cold outside, which would have me topping them off before bed, I loaded them in the morning and evening... and the house stayed a very _consistent_ 70°.
So I'm callin' BS again.



Cerran said:


> *Making 1 maybe two adjustments over an 8-10 hour burn is endless screwing around with it?*


Making adjustments is just part of the screwin' 'round... what about all the different "methods" used to "burn up the coals", like stiring and rakin', crackin' the door, adding a couple pieces of "soft" wood, and I can't remember them all. And letting the fire burn out to shovel out ashes, and then re-starting the fire. Etc., etc., etc... plain babysitting the stove.
Let me ask you... what good is an 8-10 hour burn if ya' haf'ta make 1 or 2 adjustments during that time?? Do you drive home from work twice a day to do that?? Get up twice during the night to do that?? Heck, I'd take a 6-8 hour burn with zero screwin' 'round over gettin' up twice a night to babysit it any friggin' day.
So I'm callin' BS again.



Cerran said:


> *So he added more air to it, which simply reinforces my point. The grate is not the issue. I haven't ignored anything WS...*


You're not ignoring anything?? Really?? What about the post from midwest_170 just before your last?? Seems he added a grate without adding air intakes... and the exact same friggin' issue was solved (plus some others).
What about my experiment?? I didn't add air intakes... issue solved... you're ignoring that.
The reason woodchuck357 added air intakes is for more control... nothing more than that.
So I'm callin' BS again.



Cerran said:


> *And yet thousands of people heat their whole houses with no issues with them. You do realize any wood stove is a batch burn process right?*


"Issues" are a matter of perception... ain't they?? Heck, from what I've read here, some flat enjoy babysitting their stove.
And no, not all stoves are a "batch burn" process... like woodchuck357 said, "..._continous fire (add wood on top, take ashes out the bottom)_..." If you just keep adding wood to an elitist stove it fills up with coals... an elitist stove is designed to run through a complete burn cycle (a batch) and then start another. Heck, the instructions for mine actually explain that in detail. The smoke dragon burning on a grate ain't that way at all... add wood to the top whenever you want, as often as you want, for as long as you want (for months if you want), and just yank the ash drawer for dumping when full, even when the fire is running full tilt. That ain't a "batch burn"... that ain't even close.
So I'm callin' BS again.
*


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## chadihman (Jan 13, 2015)

I can load my stove and heat my 2800 sq ft house for 9-12 hours. The secondary burn is amazing as to how much heat it cranks out. I'd say 4-6 hours on secondary. Six plus cord later and only two cups of fly ash in my Chimney. I can deal with making a simple mod or dealing with coals with that kind of performance.


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## chadihman (Jan 13, 2015)

Oh yeah and what's not to love a out a great show through my giant glass door?


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I have a quadra fire 5700 wood stove and I love my burn times and heat output. My problem is I'm accumulating cherry red coals faster than I can burn them now that it's cold and I'm feeding the stove full.
> My wife and I work away so I build big fires in the am and before bed. My stove puts out a lot of heat throughout the secondary burn of the gasses but after that I have charred pieces of wood that need more air to deplete them and get more heat from them.
> I want to hook an electric actuator to my air control and control it with a digital timer. I'd set it so after five hours give or take the actuator would power up and open my air control while I'm at work. Then I wouldn't have try to burn so many coals down before loading again.



The opening post made mention of the fact that all he had to do was to open up the air a bit to burn down the coals.


Every wood stove I've ever used, both the old smoke dragons and the new high efficiency stoves that did not have some type of active air control was a 'batch burner'. Meaning that the stove started off slow and then grew to a peak output as the volatile gasses burned and then burned off and then the remaining coals burnt down over a long period of time with decreasing heat output.

That's the nature of a wood fire in a wood stove in any wood stove without some type of active control.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> *The guys who don't think a grate would solve this problem have probably never owned a stove with a grate.*


For the most part I would agree with you... but surely some have had one, they likely just ran them improperly (i.e., rather than run them in the "sweet spot", they choked them down too much at times, and ran them too open at times).



chadihman said:


> *Six plus cord later and only two cups of fly ash in my Chimney.*


I'll never understand how a (supposedly) clean chimney equals heating performance.
I've lived 23 years in this place, only one year with an elitist firebox (two years ago)... I've never cleaned the chimney, there's never been any need to clean the chimney. So what does that say??

Oh, and "fire view" means nothing to me... if I wanna' watch a fire I'll sit around the fire pit...



Del_ said:


> *The opening post made mention of the fact that all he had to do was to open up the air a bit to burn down the coals.*


No it doesn't. He's speculating that by doing so automatically he..."_wouldn't have try to burn so many coals down_"... the OP is asking for opinions on his idea... an untested idea‼ Although, if he can make it work, I do believe it will reduce the coaling issue, but it won't eliminate it. He's trying to not *screw 'round* manually...
*


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## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> Unless you are loading the stove every few hours, you will not get a consistent heat output on a constant supply of air with any stove, it's simple thermodynamics and heat transfer.
> 
> Making 1 maybe two adjustments over an 8-10 hour burn is endless screwing around with it?
> 
> ...




Cerran, I used an old add on wood burner in my basement for 15 years before switching to an OWB and never, ever experienced the problems being described in these posts. If I had I would have drug the POS upstairs and scrapped it. No way should a supplemental wood stove have to be "tended" to in such a manner. The whole concept is stupid. Maybe the libtards that helped force this legislation hope us "rich bad guys" will hire some of the less fortunate to tend our fires for us? No what it amounts to in my opinion is they rewrite regulations and force manufacturers to build something that doesn't work as good and eventually people will give up on it. Oh, too bad no one wants to burn wood any more because the only ones that care about burning wood to save money and be independent are employed and can't sit at home and tend it. Maybe the government should give these stoves to those on Welfare, they have time to tend them..

It seems as though those of you who have them, and are tolerating them, are beating on those who are speaking ill of them to help enforce the global warming/climate change /Al Gore invented the internet BS. If it doesn't serve it's purpose, it doesn't matter how efficient it is, it will be modified or replaced. To try and justify it's non performance sounds like you are a salesman for them or a tree hugger justifying these flawed designs. I wonder which it is?


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> F
> 
> 
> No it doesn't. He's speculating that by doing so automatically he..."_wouldn't have try to burn so many coals down_"... the OP is asking for opinions on his idea... an untested idea‼ Although, if he can make it work, I do believe it will reduce the coaling issue, but it won't eliminate it. He's trying to not *screw 'round* manually...
> *



That's right, He's trying to not screw 'round manually.

But he bought and owns a manually operated wood stove!

And now he's complaining that he has to do it manually. 

He's describing exactly how the old smoke dragon Fishers, Oak Ridge, Timberline, and Buck wood stoves ran.

I've got a Riteway Model 37 back in the shop with a 7.5cu.ft. firebox and a bi metal thermostat controlled air input regulator. After the Riteway passes the hump in the bell curve of heat output that all wood burners have that don't have heat storage capacity the bi metal opens the air input and burns the coals in an effort to maintain constant stove temperature. It's both good and bad. The good is not coming home to a bed of coals...........the bad bad is coming home to coals that are all burnt and having to start another fire.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

So after a week or two of burning pretty heavy, mostly hickory, I had a bunch of coals and ash built up. A good part of this was that I'm not home during the day to adjust the air control and my wife usually doesn't want to bother. Last night I decided to burn them up. 

I raked up the coals to the surface and pulled them to the front in a pile, added a smallish, really dry ash split towards the back, and let it burn with a lot of intake air. I had nice blue flames coming off the top of the coals and it was putting out much more heat than I expected. I had to rake it out like that several times, but by bedtime I was able to pull out a considerable amount of ash without too many coals. I burned it hot last night and this morning was able to pull out even more, so I'm back down to a reasonable bed of ash.


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## chadihman (Jan 13, 2015)

Unbelievable! Why the heck can't we be civil and stay on topic?


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## Coldfront (Jan 13, 2015)

I am having the problem now as well because it is fricking minus -28°f this morning. I figure I have 2 options.
1. I cut some really dry standing dead pine with the bark fallen off and burn some of that on top of the coals, it works pretty well.
2. I have a big 5 gallon steel bucket with a lid I shovel out the coals into the bucket.
That is about all I can do when it is this cold! I need a fully stoked stove and burning wide open. The problem would be solved in a heart beat if the insurance co. would let me burn a old fashioned stove with single wall stove pipe tee'ed with a double stove pipe section. Just like the wood stove in the Long Branch in the old Gunsmoke tv shows.


----------



## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> So after a week or two of burning pretty heavy, mostly hickory, I had a bunch of coals and ash built up. A good part of this was that I'm not home during the day to adjust the air control and my wife usually doesn't want to bother. Last night I decided to burn them up.
> 
> I raked up the coals to the surface and pulled them to the front in a pile, added a smallish, really dry ash split towards the back, and let it burn with a lot of intake air. I had nice blue flames coming off the top of the coals and it was putting out much more heat than I expected. I had to rake it out like that several times, but by bedtime I was able to pull out a considerable amount of ash without too many coals. I burned it hot last night and this morning was able to pull out even more, so I'm back down to a reasonable bed of ash.



That is just amazing!

You mean you did what has been suggested probably hundreds of times on this forum and it actually worked?

Funny how that works.


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

Coldfront said:


> I am having the problem now as well because it is fricking minus -28°f this morning. I figure I have 2 options.
> 1. I cut some really dry standing dead pine with the bark fallen off and burn some of that on top of the coals, it works pretty well.



Sounds like a good plan.


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## Coldfront (Jan 13, 2015)

The problem is when it is this cold I need max heat now! I don't have time to let the coals burn down or my house cools off about 1 or 2 degree's every 10 minutes. The best way I found is burn that super dry pine on top, it burns fast and hot and really makes those coals burn cherry red. If I can't be there to baby sit the stove (the pine burns up fast) then I need to shovel out all the coals.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

Coldfront said:


> The problem is when it is this cold I need max heat now! I don't have time to let the coals burn down or my house cools off about 1 or 2 degree's every 10 minutes. The best way I found is burn that super dry pine on top, it burns fast and hot and really makes those coals burn cherry red. If I can't be there to baby sit the stove (the pine burns up fast) then I need to shovel out all the coals.




You might try a grate as mentioned above. 

If you complain about it you'll be labeled as environmentally uncaring and ignorant in the ways of utilizing a wood burning stove. Don't you know you are supposed to sit there and hand feed it? Jeez it says right in the operators manual you are supposed to fill it, light it, burn it down to ash and start over. It's for ambiance any way right? Nice pretty glass door to view as your sitting there waiting for it to burn down.....


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## midwest_170 (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> And yet thousands of people heat their whole houses with no issues with them. You do realize any wood stove is a batch burn process right?




It's not for me. It's a continuous process, once the stove begins to drop off I throw more wood in it.


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## Coldfront (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> It's not for me. It's a continuous process, once the stove begins to drop off I throw more wood in it.



+2 I haven't started a fresh fire since October.


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> You might try a grate as mentioned above.
> 
> If you complain about it you'll be labeled as environmentally uncaring and ignorant in the ways of utilizing a wood burning stove. Don't you know you are supposed to sit there and hand feed it? Jeez it says right in the operators manual you are supposed to fill it, light it, burn it down to ash and start over. It's for ambiance any way right? Nice pretty glass door to view as your sitting there waiting for it to burn down.....



I bet it says right in the manual that air adjustments at some point during a burn is SOP.

And if it's not putting out enough heat....

.......then likely it is under sized for the application.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

chadihman said:


> *Unbelievable! Why the heck can't we be civil and stay on topic?*


On topic??
You're the one who interjected a clean chimney and fire view, both of which mean absolutely nothing to the "topic"...

The "topic", started by the OP (which, by the way, is you), is about *avoiding* excessive buildup of coals in the stove during times of high heat demand by making *modifications* to it.
The "topic" is not how to burn them once they have built up, it is not about clean chimneys, it is not about fire view, and it is not about most of what's been posted here.
But, *modifying* the stove is right on topic... even if the modifications mentioned are different than what the OP was thinkin', or wants to attempt.



Del_ said:


> *That is just amazing!
> You mean you did what has been suggested probably hundreds of times on this forum and it actually worked?
> Funny how that works.*


Except, as I just said, that ain't what this thread is about... it's about avoiding the issue, not cleaning it up after it happens.
In post #1 the OP stated both he and his wife work away, he's not home to babysit the stove for long hours.
Then, in post #19 he states the house is cooling while he's "_*trying* to burn coals_" (his words, not mine), and, "_I shoveled coals into a metal bucket... and took it outside..._".
And then again in post #59, "_...my house is cooling and its hard to get it back. I figured out that in those mounds of coals is lots of ash. The coals cant burn well with all the ash plugging the airways to the coals._"
The same exact issue, and how to avoid it, is exactly what midwest_170, woodchuck357, Coldfront, fixit1960, and myself are addressing. The rest of you are talking about cleaning up after the mess... not avoiding the mess (which is what the OP started this thread about). Just because some (including the OP) don't want to hear or believe it... the points made are flat dead on topic... it-is-what-it-is... like it or not.
The post from Chris-PA, the one you, Del_, think is making some sort of relevant point to the "topic", is flat way off topic, it has no relevance to it at all... your admiration of it shows just how far from the reality you stand.

What most of you ain't recognizing (and you'll refuse to, even after this post), is the OP is a perfect example of what I've been sayin' for near three years now.
Which is... the elitist style firebox is not _always_ the best choice, for _all_ applications, _all_ circumstances, _all_ conditions, and _all_ heating demands. The OP is gone from the house for long hours... he ain't there to babysit it. When he gets home the house is cooling, it's evening, cold outside and temperature is dropping, he don't have time to babysit the thing "trying to burn coals" (heck, after being at work all day he likely don't have the desire to screw with it). Basically, during high heat demand, the man needs something he can stuff full in the morning, then immediately stuff full when he gets home several hours later, then stuff it full again before bed... without haf'in to screw 'round with coals or drive home in the middle of the day to "adjust" the damn air thing. What the man needs is something you throw wood in the top (whenever ya' want or need to, no matter what), remove ashes from a drawer in the bottom, and don't need to attended to it other than that... he needs a grate (whether it's a smoke dragon box or a cut-up and modified elitist box)... and that is-what-it-is... like it or not.

And I'm flat sick of hearing the "undersized" argument... which ain't anything near on topic anyway.

But carry on with your need to believe in magic...
*


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> It's not for me. It's a continuous process, once the stove begins to drop off I throw more wood in it.



Yep, throw more wood in it.

Makes good sense. That's how wood stoves work.

Even better when it's in your living space with a good fire view so you can see and not just feel when the fire needs stoking.

The smoke dragon stoves work the same way, only putting out less heat for the same amount of fuel used. I've never seen a grate in a Fisher, Buck or Timberline. I've used half a dozen of them over the years and none of them are fill, set and forget.


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> That ain't my "attitude" at all. It ain't about the "highway", I'm "preaching" that I should have a *choice* (just as you should)... not restricted to what some ridiculously stupid one-size-fits-all federal regulation requires. If you're unable to discern the difference... you've got the "my way or the highway" attitude... not me.
> *


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> Cerran, I used an old add on wood burner in my basement for 15 years before switching to an OWB and never, ever experienced the problems being described in these posts. If I had I would have drug the POS upstairs and scrapped it. No way should a supplemental wood stove have to be "tended" to in such a manner. The whole concept is stupid. Maybe the libtards that helped force this legislation hope us "rich bad guys" will hire some of the less fortunate to tend our fires for us? No what it amounts to in my opinion is they rewrite regulations and force manufacturers to build something that doesn't work as good and eventually people will give up on it. Oh, too bad no one wants to burn wood any more because the only ones that care about burning wood to save money and be independent are employed and can't sit at home and tend it. Maybe the government should give these stoves to those on Welfare, they have time to tend them..
> 
> It seems as though those of you who have them, and are tolerating them, are beating on those who are speaking ill of them to help enforce the global warming/climate change /Al Gore invented the internet BS. If it doesn't serve it's purpose, it doesn't matter how efficient it is, it will be modified or replaced. To try and justify it's non performance sounds like you are a salesman for them or a tree hugger justifying these flawed designs. I wonder which it is?


  schhwwweeeeeettt!!!!!!!!!


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> That's right, He's trying to not screw 'round manually.
> 
> But he bought and owns a manually operated wood stove!
> 
> ...


 buwahahahahahahhaha,,your so fos....you sure as hell didn't know how to run that one either,,did yah???


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> You might try a grate as mentioned above.
> 
> If you complain about it you'll be labeled as environmentally uncaring and ignorant in the ways of utilizing a wood burning stove. Don't you know you are supposed to sit there and hand feed it? Jeez it says right in the operators manual you are supposed to fill it, light it, burn it down to ash and start over. It's for ambiance any way right? Nice pretty glass door to view as your sitting there waiting for it to burn down.....


  careful.. the elitists of this forum,,will be calling for your head.............................................


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## Coldfront (Jan 13, 2015)

I like the idea of a grate, I had one in my old house with a wood furnace. The stove I have now doesn't have a very big fire box. Maybe if I removed the fire brick on the floor of the firebox I might have room for a grate, but not something I am going to do now, maybe a summer project. Anything above zero outside temps. I don't have much of a problem with coals. It takes maybe 4 mins. to shovel out the excess ashes and coals into a bucket, if that is what it takes once a day when it is like this out so be it. I might be going back to a wood furnace in the basement next year.


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> On topic??
> You're the one who interjected a clean chimney and fire view, both of which mean absolutely nothing to the "topic"...
> 
> The "topic", started by the OP (which, by the way, is you), is about *avoiding* excessive buildup of coals in the stove during times of high heat demand by making *modifications* to it.
> ...


 and theres one in this thread,,that believes in magic,,and fairys,,and gnomes....


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Yep, throw more wood in it.
> 
> Makes good sense. That's how wood stoves work.
> 
> ...


 fos again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> *I've never seen a grate in a Fisher, Buck or Timberline. ...none of them are fill, set and forget.*


Do you try and put your foot in it... or is it just a reflection of your idealism??
They ain't fill, set and forget because... well, you said it... they don't have a grate 
*


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## chadihman (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> On topic??
> You're the one who interjected a clean chimney and fire view, both of which mean absolutely nothing to the "topic"...
> 
> The "topic", started by the OP (which, by the way, is you), is about *avoiding* excessive buildup of coals in the stove during times of high heat demand by making *modifications* to it.
> ...


I've been bashed along with my style stove. I had to stand up just for my stove and myself just once. Speaking of magic... Your the magician. Your a very knowledgeable guy but guarantee your not all knowing.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> The post from Chris-PA, the one you, Del_, think is making some sort of relevant point to the "topic", is flat way off topic, it has no relevance to it at all.


So now you are the off-topic police? Nice debate tactic - define the information that disagrees with your position as off-topic so it can be discarded.


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Do you try and put your foot in it... or is it just a reflection of your idealism??
> They ain't fill, set and forget because... well, you said it... they don't have a grate
> *


----------



## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

Coldfront said:


> I like the idea of a grate, I had one in my old house with a wood furnace. The stove I have now doesn't have a very big fire box. Maybe if I removed the fire brick on the floor of the firebox I might have room for a grate, but not something I am going to do now, maybe a summer project. Anything above zero outside temps. I don't have much of a problem with coals. It takes maybe 4 mins. to shovel out the excess ashes and coals into a bucket, if that is what it takes once a day when it is like this out so be it. I might be going back to a wood furnace in the basement next year.




Coldfront if you are seriously considering this as an option I'd be looking for the replacement stove now. By mid July of this year, according to the info I have received, your only choice will be exactly like what you have now. That is unless we can put enough heat on our legislators and make the written formal complaints to the EPA to drive them to delay enacting the new "super clean only stove sales" regulations.  But somehow I don't think we will be able to do that. I'd be looking for a replacement or modification now


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

chadihman said:


> *I've been bashed along with my style stove.*


My intent was never to "bash"... I really didn't read anything in this thread that I would construe as "bashing" you or your stove.
My apologies if you see it that way.

You posted an issue you were having... mentioned a modification you were thinking about... and asked for opinions on whether-or-not it would resolve the issue.
You then accepted some opinions, suggestions and even other modifications without being offended... as long as they agreed with your thinking.
It hardly seems fair or consistent to label opinions, suggestions and even other modifications that deviate somewhat from your thinking as "bashing".
It's a public forum... the responses you get to a question may be as varied as the number of members (shrug)

But, never-the-less... my apologies if you see it that way.
*


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## 1project2many (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Oh, and "fire view" means nothing to me... if I wanna' watch a fire I'll sit around the fire pit...


I've found the clear front allows heat out faster than waiting for the brick and metal warm up. The stove can be oriented to heat one area more than others if you wish. That's probably helpful when it's placed at the end of a room and it's nice when trying to raise the temp of the living space quickly.




fixit1960 said:


> It seems as though those of you who have them, and are tolerating them, are beating on those who are speaking ill of them to help enforce the global warming/climate change /Al Gore invented the internet BS.


I take exception to that.



chadihman said:


> Unbelievable! Why the heck can't we be civil and stay on topic?


Welcome to AS.



chadihman said:


> I've been bashed along with my style stove.


Don't take it personally.



Whitespider said:


> And I'm flat sick of hearing the "undersized" argument... which ain't anything near on topic anyway.


Still, I think there may be something to it. "Undersized" in that if you need to run the stove all-out all day it's not going to work as predicted. If the stove can't provide enough heat while the coals are burning off then it's "undersized" for the heat requirement. Now if ya can't get one that is big enough, well, I guess that means your house is the problem.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> And I'm flat sick of hearing the "undersized" argument..


You hear that a lot I bet?



1project2many said:


> Still, I think there may be something to it. "Undersized" in that if you need to run the stove all-out all day it's not going to work as predicted. If the stove can't provide enough heat while the coals are burning off then it's "undersized" for the heat requirement.


Exactly - the important specification would be the heat output averaged over the burn time of the fuel load, but I don't think most manufacturers provide this. Rather they give max instantaneous heat output rate, which is likely during secondary burn and the time interval it is measured over is undefined. And may be total BS too. A better measure is the size of the firebox.


----------



## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> *...define the information that disagrees with your position as off-topic...*


I thought I did... heck, I'm sure I did...
Yup... I just when back and read post #97 again... thinkin' that defined it quite well actually.
Avoiding the mess before it happens verses cleaning up after the mess after it happens... not to difficult to comprehend, is it??
You posted how you "burn up the coals" after they build up... verses the OP asking how to avoid building up the coals so he don't haf'ta perform that chore (for whatever the reason he don't wanna' do it... the reason is his, it don't matter to the topic either).
But... whatever...



1project2many said:


> *Still, I think there may be something to it. "Undersized"...*





Chris-PA said:


> *A better measure is the size of the firebox.*


Well... the OP has a 3³/ft firebox that accepts up to 24-inch firewood... with a (claimed) "up to" 21 hour burn time... and the (claimed) ability to heat 1400-3700²/ft "_based on climate and home efficiency._" It even has something called, "_Automatic Combustion Control (ACC) burn technology_" that "_offers precision heating control._" Does that mean it already "auto-adjusts"?? Yep... I guess it does, this from the brochure... "_Automatic Combustion Control (ACC). This advanced heat-management technology feeds the fire with air when it’s needed most..._" So, is it needed most when trying to burn the coals?? Or is that some other time??
How much bigger do the (secondary burn) elitist stoves get?? Do they even get bigger?? How much bigger?? Enough bigger to matter??
*


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## 1project2many (Jan 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Exactly - the important specification would be the heat output averaged over the burn time of the fuel load, but I don't think most manufacturers provide this. Rather they give max instantaneous heat output rate, which is likely during secondary burn and the time interval it is measured over is undefined. And may be total BS too. A better measure is the size of the firebox.




Yes... another case of rating the tool / appliance / device by the peak obtainable value while the consumer is left to figure out the true usable output at his own expense.



Whitespider said:


> How much bigger do the (secondary burn) elitist stoves get?? Do they even get bigger?? How much bigger?? Enough bigger to matter??



Unknown, but I suspect probably not enough bigger to matter. Hence the joke about the house being the problem, not the stove.


----------



## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> *You hear that a lot I bet?*


 OK... I gotta' give ya' that one... speakin' of "steppin' into it" 
Heck... I'm even gonna' "like" the post... but keep in mind, just that part of it‼
*


----------



## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

1project2many said:


> I take exception to that.
> 
> I agree with you and apologize to you and those viewing who have an EPA stove and have not tried to condemn the way some are operating there's to try and make it work.
> 
> ...


----------



## 1project2many (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> I agree with you and apologize to you and those viewing who have an EPA stove and have not tried to condemn the way some are operating there's to try and make it work.



lol... hey, I was just pokin fun. No thin skin here. I've been on plenty of forums. Heck, I've been around the internet since before Al Gore invented it!



> My issue is that soon all we will have for a choice are these types of stoves.


Not "we." I think we are smart enough to build our own if needed. The problem is that it is illegal to use it once built.



> I have watched this back and forth for about 6 weeks and I get the impression some out there are bound and determined that this type of stove is the endall to the wood stove heating issues and it's just so much more efficient. Never understanding that for some people it isn't working as described or suitable for the job it was bought for.



True. I think it's tough to believe they don't work without seeing it and trying first hand to deal with it. Many people here are problem solvers and it's instinct to feel like we could make a stove work that someone else is having a problem with. Burning stuff is easy, right?



> WS was offering a logical alternative to Chadihman in the way he could run the stove. It sounds as if Coldfront is experiencing the same issues. Maybe it isn't all operator error or incorrect expectations.



I've been posting about my two stoves as well, and how differently they perform.


----------



## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> Cerran, I used an old add on wood burner in my basement for 15 years before switching to an OWB and never, ever experienced the problems being described in these posts. If I had I would have drug the POS upstairs and scrapped it. No way should a supplemental wood stove have to be "tended" to in such a manner. The whole concept is stupid. Maybe the libtards that helped force this legislation hope us "rich bad guys" will hire some of the less fortunate to tend our fires for us? No what it amounts to in my opinion is they rewrite regulations and force manufacturers to build something that doesn't work as good and eventually people will give up on it. Oh, too bad no one wants to burn wood any more because the only ones that care about burning wood to save money and be independent are employed and can't sit at home and tend it. Maybe the government should give these stoves to those on Welfare, they have time to tend them..
> 
> It seems as though those of you who have them, and are tolerating them, are beating on those who are speaking ill of them to help enforce the global warming/climate change /Al Gore invented the internet BS. If it doesn't serve it's purpose, it doesn't matter how efficient it is, it will be modified or replaced. To try and justify it's non performance sounds like you are a salesman for them or a tree hugger justifying these flawed designs. I wonder which it is?



So having to adjust your wood stove once or twice over a 8-10 hour period to get a flatter output curve is an imposition?

You haven't made an argument here, you've gone on a two paragraph rant that was in essence, meaningless.

This has nothing to do with climate change, again you're on a meaningless rant here.

Considering that many people have the new stoves and they perform better than the old non-epa units, the claim of non-performance doesn't hold up. When I replaced my non Epa insert 10+ years ago I saw a marked jump in heating performance and my experience is hardly unique. Instead of ranting about how the EPA stoves are horrible, perhaps focus on the few situations or models that don't work well and figure out why.


----------



## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> It's not for me. It's a continuous process, once the stove begins to drop off I throw more wood in it.



That's still a batch process. You don't have a continuous wood feed.


----------



## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I thought I did... heck, I'm sure I did...
> Yup... I just when back and read post #97 again... thinkin' that defined it quite well actually.
> Avoiding the mess before it happens verses cleaning up after the mess after it happens... not to difficult to comprehend, is it??
> You posted how you "burn up the coals" after they build up... verses the OP asking how to avoid building up the coals so he don't haf'ta perform that chore (for whatever the reason he don't wanna' do it... the reason is his, it don't matter to the topic either).
> ...



ACC isn't automatic control on anything but when you first load the stove. It's the secondary air that you open when loading the stove to get the fire going and the wood charred before shutting it down. On the newer quadrafires it's automatic so you can't forget and accidentally leave the secondary air on and overfire the stove.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> You posted how you "burn up the coals" after they build up... verses the OP asking how to avoid building up the coals so he don't haf'ta perform that chore


My post (#87) listed what I did that caused the build up of coals (and thus inferred what can be done to avoid it), what I did to get rid of them and stated that the stove produced considerable heat output during this operation. Thus my comment was exactly on-topic, which means that you either:

a. Don't understand what the topic is
b. Didn't comprehend my comment
c. Are trying to discredit information that conflicts with your premise.


----------



## midwest_170 (Jan 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Yep, throw more wood in it.
> 
> Makes good sense. That's how wood stoves work.
> 
> ...



Do you only scoop out fine ash, no coals? My biggest frustration with my stove was the coals being smothered out by ash. I just don't see how it is possible to have a continuous high rate burn and only take out pure ash. For example last night when I got home the stove temp was about 350 with about a shovel full of coals left. I opened up the stove flipped up the grate and scooped some ash out and then tossed in some splits and walked away, 10 mins later my stove temp was 550. I never spend more than 10 mins of my day screwing around with my stove, but before I put the grate in I was wasting over 30 mins a day babysitting the thing.


----------



## midwest_170 (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> That's still a batch process. You don't have a continuous wood feed.



No letting the fire burn down to reduce coals then start up another fire would be batch. I continuously have the same heat output, where a batch process would have temperature swings.


----------



## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> Do you only scoop out fine ash, no coals? My biggest frustration with my stove was the coals being smothered out by ash. I just don't see how it is possible to have a continuous high rate burn and only take out pure ash. For example last night when I got home the stove temp was about 350 with about a shovel full of coals left. I opened up the stove flipped up the grate and scooped some ash out and then tossed in some splits and walked away, 10 mins later my stove temp was 550. I never spend more than 10 mins of my day screwing around with my stove, but before I put the grate in I was wasting over 30 mins a day babysitting the thing.



That has to be related to the type of wood you are burning. I have never had an issue with the ash smothering coals other than maybe a small portion of the small stuff getting buried in the ash blanket on the bottom of the stove. I empty ash on my stove maybe once every 6-8 weeks at most. Last time I emptied ash on my stove was the day after thanksgiving when I let the fire go out, cleaned out ash, cleaned the glass and checked the chimney and rain cap. Usually I don't let the stove go out, I just shovel ash between loading and rake the leftover coals to one side.


----------



## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> So having to adjust your wood stove once or twice over a 8-10 hour period to get a flatter output curve is an imposition?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> No letting the fire burn down to reduce coals then start up another fire would be batch. I continuously have the same heat output, where a batch process would have temperature swings.



Actually it's not. If you don't have a set time for fuel addition and are letting the combustion process go through a cycle before loading, it's a batch process.


----------



## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> Lets see If I can get this to work right this time. I fubared that last post all to pieces..
> 
> I think that the quote above is exactly the problem.. When you are away from the home for an extended period of time you are not able to tweak the air or add the necessary light wood to burn off the accumulating coals. When you do arrive home you are playing catch up to get the temp up in the house but first you have to deal with the coal situation. That is the problem. I don't know too many people who want to get up in the middle of the night and set with the fire.



Which would seem to indicate it is the wrong stove for the application. If you want a flat output curve over long periods of time, a wood stove with no automatic control is not the best choice. 

There seem to be a general push-back against overreach of the EPA which I agree with, the EPA should not be driving this. However, the modern stoves do put out a lot less emissions under most scenarios which is something I would like to see.

In some areas because the air quality got so bad in part because of people burning improperly (and because of local conditions , Missoula MT and SLC Utah come to mind) that they ruined the possibility of wood stoves for everyone.

I'd like to see the technology developed further driven by market forces, and local enforcement of people who burn improperly. After all if someone is burning a stove next to my property and causing clouds of smoke on my property because they burn wet wood, they should pay for the intrusion on my property.


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## Coldfront (Jan 13, 2015)

The under size stove is not the problem, how often is it minus -28°f? Do you go out and buy a 3/4 ton diesel truck because you tow a boat a few times a year? The size of my stove is fine 99% of the time. I do have LP gas furnace back up I can kick on once in a while.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Might just as well give it up fixit1960.
Cerran is convinced that because his stove works as he likes or expects, for _his_ application, _his_ circumstances, _his_ conditions, and _his_ heating demand... it means it will be the same for _any_ application, _any_ circumstance, _any_ condition, and _any_ heating demand. He'll never concede they ain't magic... which they would haf'ta be if they worked the same for _every_ application, _every_ circumstance, _every_ condition, and _every_ heating demand.

That's what you're up against here... blind ideology.
He is fully convinced there is no possible way... no friggin' way... a non-elitist firebox could be a better choice for _some_ applications, _some_ circumstances, _some_ conditions, and _some_ heating demands.
He's fully convinced that disappointing performance does not exist (unless, of course, it's due to some sort of user/installer error), simply because he personally has not experienced disappointing performance himself.

See why I call them "elitist" stoves??
*


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> Do you only scoop out fine ash, no coals? My biggest frustration with my stove was the coals being smothered out by ash. I just don't see how it is possible to have a continuous high rate burn and only take out pure ash. For example last night when I got home the stove temp was about 350 with about a shovel full of coals left. I opened up the stove flipped up the grate and scooped some ash out and then tossed in some splits and walked away, 10 mins later my stove temp was 550. I never spend more than 10 mins of my day screwing around with my stove, but before I put the grate in I was wasting over 30 mins a day babysitting the thing.



Glad to hear you have the grate thing working well.

Our grate sits in a section of the firebox floor. It's openings are probable only about 15% of the total firebox floor area.

We lose no coals when emptying the ash pan and in this design a grate does not take up any firebox space.

We burn a Jotul F600CB. It has a grate in the bottom of the firebox with an ash pan under the grate and a separate ash pan door. This makes it quite easy to remove ash when the stove anytime, high or low fire. Air does not enter the firebox from under the grate unless the ash pan door is over. Opening the ash pan door while the stove is in operation would result is over firing the stove and damaging it in just a few minutes so it's not to be left open while leaving to empty the ash pan.


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## olyman (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Might just as well give it up fixit1960.
> Cerran is convinced that because his stove works as he likes or expects, for _his_ application, _his_ circumstances, _his_ conditions, and _his_ heating demand... it means it will be the same for _any_ application, _any_ circumstance, _any_ condition, and _any_ heating demand. He'll never concede they ain't magic... which they would haf'ta be if they worked the same for _every_ application, _every_ circumstance, _every_ condition, and _every_ heating demand.
> 
> That's what you're up against here... blind ideology.
> ...


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Might just as well give it up fixit1960.
> Cerran is convinced that because his stove works as he likes or expects, for _his_ application, _his_ circumstances, _his_ conditions, and _his_ heating demand... it means it will be the same for _any_ application, _any_ circumstance, _any_ condition, and _any_ heating demand. He'll never concede they ain't magic... which they would haf'ta be if they worked the same for _every_ application, _every_ circumstance, _every_ condition, and _every_ heating demand.
> 
> That's what you're up against here... blind ideology.
> ...



No WS, I'm convinced that many people here have unrealistic expectations of how a wood stove should operate and that many people have chosen the incorrect stove for their application hence why they are unhappy.

You have become the poster child for this.

Given that you have not tried a modern wood furnace design and yet complain about "elistist" stoves doesn't make much sense.


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> No WS, I'm convinced that many people here have unrealistic expectations of how a wood stove should operate and that many people have chosen the incorrect stove for their application hence why they are unhappy.
> 
> You have become the poster child for this.
> 
> Given that you have not tried a modern wood furnace design and yet complain about "elistist" stoves doesn't make much sense.




You don't say.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *No WS, I'm convinced that many people here have unrealistic expectations... you have become the poster child for this.*


What am I being unrealistic about?? I'm not expecting anything more than I've had for near 40 years??
How can something that's been real for decades suddenly become unrealistic??
Because you say so?? Really?? That's just silly‼ Actually it's beyond silly...


Cerran said:


> *If you want a flat output curve over long periods of time, a wood stove with no automatic control is not the best choice.*


OK... what is the best choice than??
If you know what is not the best choice, you must know what is... so... stop telling us what _is not_ the best choice... tell what is??

Except for my current setup that I've only used for 1½ seasons, I've never had any "automatic control"... yet I've never had an issue getting (relatively) flat output (I'd add "over long periods of time"... but, again, that's a perception thing, ain't it??). The only box that couldn't/wouldn't/didn't/doesn't give me that flat output was/is the elitist box... which I also used in the house for 1½ seasons, and has now been used in the shop 1½ seasons.
So if a manual control stove is not the best choice... why have the (smoke dragon) manual control stoves *always* worked just as I wanted and needed them to??
If manual control ain't the best choice... what should I have been using over the past 4 decades??
Or is the answer also "unrealistic"?? Give me a break‼
*


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## midwest_170 (Jan 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Glad to hear you have the grate thing working well.
> 
> Our grate sits in a section of the firebox floor. It's openings are probable only about 15% of the total firebox floor area.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a very solid design. I like the idea of having the separate ash pan door. I'm not trying to imply someone has to have air coming in under the grate, but having a stove without a grate would just be too much of a hassle raking coals and trying to separate coals and ash.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Might just as well give it up fixit1960.
> Cerran is convinced that because his stove works as he likes or expects, for _his_ application, _his_ circumstances, _his_ conditions, and _his_ heating demand... it means it will be the same for _any_ application, _any_ circumstance, _any_ condition, and _any_ heating demand. He'll never concede they ain't magic... which they would haf'ta be if they worked the same for _every_ application, _every_ circumstance, _every_ condition, and _every_ heating demand.
> 
> That's what you're up against here... blind ideology.
> ...




I'm beginning to be inclined to believe you. In post #125 he blamed the coaling problem on the type of wood that Midwest was using. I thought at the time I must have been dealing with a wizard if he could diagnose the problem through the monitor screen like that. Talk about presumptuous. It just could not be the way the stove is designed?!?!?! You wonder how that made Midwest feel? 

I still maintain my stance, the Feds should not be able to force all of us into one choice for a type of stove. 

Elitist attitude, help by Elitist people. Talk about blowing smoke .


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> *I thought at the time I must have been dealing with a wizard if he could diagnose the problem through the monitor screen like that.*


Naawww... they use magic crystal balls for that 
*


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## Coldfront (Jan 13, 2015)

Actually my Pacific Energy Spectrum has only fire brick floor but does have about a 4"x4" spring loaded trap door that you push ash into a big collection pan that slides in underneath. So a shallow grate might work, I could still scrape the ash down into the pan. What would be the best kind of steel to make a grate out of?


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## midwest_170 (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> That has to be related to the type of wood you are burning. I have never had an issue with the ash smothering coals other than maybe a small portion of the small stuff getting buried in the ash blanket on the bottom of the stove. I empty ash on my stove maybe once every 6-8 weeks at most. Last time I emptied ash on my stove was the day after thanksgiving when I let the fire go out, cleaned out ash, cleaned the glass and checked the chimney and rain cap. Usually I don't let the stove go out, I just shovel ash between loading and rake the leftover coals to one side.



Well I'm currently burning Hedge, Locust, Oak and Mulberry. It's all seasoned 2 to 3 years, don't have a moisture meter, but can assure you it's dry. When I put the wood on a hot bed of coals it's in flames before I get the next piece in and it never sizzles. I'm sure it's probably not up to the standards of wood you burn, but seems to get me by.


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## midwest_170 (Jan 13, 2015)

Coldfront said:


> Actually my Pacific Energy Spectrum has only fire brick floor but does have about a 4"x4" spring loaded trap door that you push ash into a big collection pan that slides in underneath. So a shallow grate might work, I could still scrape the ash down into the pan. What would be the best kind of steel to make a grate out of?



Cast iron is the best.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Coldfront,
I took the brick out'a the floor when I tried the grate experiment in my Spectrum (about 1½ inches off the floor).
The problem with a shallow ash collection area under the grate was if filled with ash too fast, which blocked the air flow, and required lifting the grate to remove ashes, which required letting the stove burn near completely out. Still... the improvement in performance was huge until the area under the grate filled with ash... which didn't take very friggin' long. And raising the grate higher reduced firebox capacity.
I'd be interested in your results if you try it.

For experimental purposes I don't believe the type of steel or grate matters much... whatever is cheap, fast and easy... I used a cut-down fire pit grille made from welded steel rod. If you like the results, then make, or purchase, something more permanent and durable... but I wouldn't spend a lot of time, effort or cash until then.
*


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *Given that you have not tried a modern wood furnace design and yet complain about "elistist" stoves doesn't make much sense.*


I don't haf'ta try one... I'm gonna' make this as friggin' plain as I possibly can for ya'...
I ain't interested in anything requiring ashes to be shoveled or directed to a little dump hole. I ain't interested in anything that requires letting the box cool, burn down or burn out to to remove ashes. And I certainly ain't interested in anything requiring cleaning, maintenance, brushing, scrapping, and such, at intervals during the heating season. I simply and plainly don't wanna' be screwin' 'round with the damn thing during the heating season... I just wanna' toss the wood in, dump the ashes when needed, and walk away. That's what I want... that's what I have... and I ain't interested in trading that convenience for anything... period.

Have you read my signature?? Burning it should be the easy part.
*


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## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> Well I'm currently burning Hedge, Locust, Oak and Mulberry. It's all seasoned 2 to 3 years, don't have a moisture meter, but can assure you it's dry. When I put the wood on a hot bed of coals it's in flames before I get the next piece in and it never sizzles. I'm sure it's probably not up to the standards of wood you burn, but seems to get me by.




, don't make the wizard mad.....they may come and get your stove.. you don't have the right Elitist attitude town or burn in it. 

I wonder how much he actually burns his, 6 to 8 weeks between ash dumps my god how big is his ash pan?? Maybe he only burns a cord or 2 a year. Hence the no issues here response.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 13, 2015)

Coldfront said:


> Actually my Pacific Energy Spectrum has only fire brick floor but does have about a 4"x4" spring loaded trap door that you push ash into a big collection pan that slides in underneath. So a shallow grate might work, I could still scrape the ash down into the pan. What would be the best kind of steel to make a grate out of?




I was going to suggest 1/4 or 3/8 " steel rebar. Might not last a season but it's inexpensive and easy to work with. Once you figure out the dimensions and good fit and function you could use it for a pattern and make one out of stainless round stock in a little thicker material if you have the room.


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## Del_ (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I don't haf'ta try one... I'm gonna' make this as friggin' plain as I possibly can for ya'...
> I ain't interested in anything requiring ashes to be shoveled or directed to a little dump hole. I ain't interested in anything that requires letting the box cool, burn down or burn out to to remove ashes. And I certainly ain't interested in anything requiring cleaning, maintenance, brushing, scrapping, and such, at intervals during the heating season. I simply and plainly don't wanna' be screwin' 'round with the damn thing during the heating season... I just wanna' toss the wood in, dump the ashes when needed, and walk away. That's what I want... that's what I have... and I ain't interested in trading that convenience for anything... period.
> 
> Have you read my signature?? Burning it should be the easy part.
> *



If it got any easier that this, I couldn't stand it!


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> What am I being unrealistic about?? I'm not expecting anything more than I've had for near 40 years??
> How can something that's been real for decades suddenly become unrealistic??
> Because you say so?? Really?? That's just silly‼ Actually it's beyond silly...
> 
> ...



Ahh the "this is the way we've always done it" argument. I run into that a lot in industrial boilers, it doesn't make it any less wrong.

You claim you've never had an issue but we're just supposed to take your word for it? 

You claim you have a relatively flat output but again we're supposed to take your word for it?

You may not care about emissions, but at some level you have to realize that the older stoves do put out a lot more emissions than the new ones.

As with all things WS, you should use the best technology you can afford at the time. Automatic controls are becoming very cheap.


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> , don't make the wizard mad.....they may come and get your stove.. you don't have the right Elitist attitude town or burn in it.
> 
> I wonder how much he actually burns his, 6 to 8 weeks between ash dumps my god how big is his ash pan?? Maybe he only burns a cord or 2 a year. Hence the no issues here response.



I have no ash pan. I burn between 3 and 4 cord a year depending on the winter we have with the majority of the wood being seasoned Doug Fir/Larch mix along with a bit of apple and mountain ash. I do burn a cord of lodgepole pine usually half at the beginning of the season and the other half at the end of the season. The stove has been burning 24/7 since late October here.

Clean wood is between 0.45 and 1.5% ash depending on wood species and various other factors so the ash generation should be relatively small. That means for the typical cord of firewood you should be somewhere between 10 and 45 pounds of ash. Wood ash is about 50 lb/cubic foot dry.

We maintain the house at a comfortable 72-74 through most of the house although the laundry room being the furthest away gets down into the 50's on really cold days since it's on the far corner of the house and sometimes the living room you can get baked out depending on how warm it is outside. When I load the stove for the last time around 10 or 11PM it runs from then until generally 7AM or 7:30 the next morning when I load it again. If it's really cold out the house dips down to 65-67 but if the temps outside are above 20ish the house will be about 68-70 at the reload.


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I don't haf'ta try one... I'm gonna' make this as friggin' plain as I possibly can for ya'...
> I ain't interested in anything requiring ashes to be shoveled or directed to a little dump hole. I ain't interested in anything that requires letting the box cool, burn down or burn out to to remove ashes. And I certainly ain't interested in anything requiring cleaning, maintenance, brushing, scrapping, and such, at intervals during the heating season. I simply and plainly don't wanna' be screwin' 'round with the damn thing during the heating season... I just wanna' toss the wood in, dump the ashes when needed, and walk away. That's what I want... that's what I have... and I ain't interested in trading that convenience for anything... period.
> 
> Have you read my signature?? Burning it should be the easy part.
> *



Hence why the wood stove regulations got implemented in the first place. Too many people have that attitude but unlike you they don't take the time to burn cleanly or properly season their wood.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *Ahh the "this is the way we've always done it" argument.*


L-O-L... It weren't no argument... it was a response to the unrealistic expectations thing.


Cerran said:


> *...we're supposed to take your word for it?*


Supposed to?? Heck man, you can do whatever ya' want... I have no expectations 'bout that.


Cerran said:


> *You may not care about emissions...*


Well... whadda ya' know?? We do agree on something. I'm 57 years old, and I live in Iowa where we don't have air quality problems... whether-or-not my stove, furnace, truck, car, lawn tractor, golf cart, ATV, motorcycle, burn barrel, or farts produces emissions is something I'll never care sour owl squat about. I couldn't produce enough emissions in the time I have left to equal half what gets spit in the air every time Air Force One takes off. I ain't gonna' worry squat about things that don't matter... I just ain't.


Cerran said:


> *As with all things WS, you should use the best technology you can afford at the time.*


That depends on the trade-off, there ain't any such thing as always... but I do have automatic forced draft and circulation blowers now.



Cerran said:


> *Hence why the wood stove regulations got implemented in the first place.*


Actually... that ain't why.
Heck, they didn't even "regulate" the worst offenders in the first go-a-round. I mean, c'mon, all they regulated was room heaters and space heaters (stoves)... and allowed dozens of exemptions for those, like cook stoves, camp stoves, recreational stoves (really?? seriously?? recreational stoves??), and more. Naawww... it never had anything to do with attitude, dirty burning, or emissions... that's just the whitewash for the believers.
*


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## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

My wife and son are out of town so I'm on my own for the night. They left around 12:30 and my wife loaded the stove then - I know darn well she didn't put much thought into how it was set. I got home about 6hs later, the stove was fairly cool, and when I opened the door it looked like a pile of ash - nothing glowing. The basement where the stove is was about 77deg and the blower from the old furnace was off. 

I shoveled out ash from the front edge, raked the glowing cols to a pile in the front, and tossed a very small tulip split on top of them. Took a couple of minutes, far less time than feeding the animals and closing in the chickens which I did first. The basement temperature has come up about 5deg in maybe 25min. That will be burned out in not too much time and I'll reload it - it's 19, going down to 9. 

As I type this the blower has just kicked back on and the basement temperature is up to 85 - I've been home an hour.


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## chadihman (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I don't haf'ta try one... I'm gonna' make this as friggin' plain as I possibly can for ya'...
> I ain't interested in anything requiring ashes to be shoveled or directed to a little dump hole. I ain't interested in anything that requires letting the box cool, burn down or burn out to to remove ashes. And I certainly ain't interested in anything requiring cleaning, maintenance, brushing, scrapping, and such, at intervals during the heating season. I simply and plainly don't wanna' be screwin' 'round with the damn thing during the heating season... I just wanna' toss the wood in, dump the ashes when needed, and walk away. That's what I want... that's what I have... and I ain't interested in trading that convenience for anything... period.
> 
> Have you read my signature?? Burning it should be the easy part.
> *


I read your signature. Your giant pulsating brain is a pain in my azz. Lol 

So how often do yall smoke dragon burners clean your chimneys? How much do you get out in a cleaning? Most quadrafires have grates and ash pans. Shoveling ash is easily done with hot coals. I like the fact that I'm getting extra heat from the smoke that's NOT coming from my Chimney.


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Actually... that ain't why.
> Heck, they didn't even "regulate" the worst offenders in the first go-a-round. I mean, c'mon, all they regulated was room heaters and space heaters (stoves)... and allowed dozens of exemptions for those, like cook stoves, camp stoves, recreational stoves (really?? seriously?? recreational stoves??), and more. Naawww... it never had anything to do with attitude, dirty burning, or emissions... that's just the whitewash for the believers.



Yes, that is why the regulations were initiated, particularity in problem airsheds like SLC, Missoula, Portland etc.. The problem is they did the typical idiot EPA kneejerk reaction and assigned the regulations to all airsheds instead of only the problem ones, or using selective enforcement.


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## Cerran (Jan 13, 2015)

midwest_170 said:


> Cast iron is the best.



Actually inconel is the best but it's hella expensive.


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *We maintain the house at a comfortable 72-74 through most of the house although the laundry room being the furthest away gets down into the 50's on really cold days since it's on the far corner of the house and sometimes the living room you can get baked out depending on how warm it is outside.*


Oh man‼
If that's what y'all like I won't put it down... but there ain't any doubt in my mind, I'd be divorced.
Between 70°-71° here, the whole house, every room no matter where it's located, every day all day no matter the temperature outside... 66°-67° at night.



Chris-PA said:


> *...it's 19, going down to 9.*


Was -17° this morning, I think we may have hit 9° for a few minutes mid afternoon... maybe.
Not sure what it's gonna' do tonight... the weather guys have been wrong on temperature predictions near every day for a week now. Heck, I think they predicted something like -3° for last night... only missed it by 15°. I reckon that ain't so bad for guess work...



chadihman said:


> *So how often do yall smoke dragon burners clean your chimneys?*


Well, let me put it this way...
I've lived here 'bout 23 years... except for a 5-6 year hiatus because of my daughters lung problems we've heated with wood from day one...
I check the chimney every year before firing up... never seen a need to clean it... I don't even own a chimney brush.
So, the answer is... I don't clean it. (Although, I do scoop a gallon or so of soot out'a the basement floor clean-out during the fall inspection.)
*


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## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Was -17° this morning, I think we may have hit 9° for a few minutes mid afternoon... maybe.


Iowa. I hear it's lovely this time of year.



Whitespider said:


> Not sure what it's gonna' do tonight... the weather guys have been wrong on temperature predictions near every day for a week now. Heck, I think they predicted something like -3° for last night... only missed it by 15°. I reckon that ain't so bad for guess work...


I think if you look out the window and read the thermometer you'll know as much as they do.


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## AIM (Jan 13, 2015)

This thread has gone ballistic and i just can't keep up. If anyone wants to start a thread about "air under or over the fire" I'll chime in there.


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## AIM (Jan 13, 2015)

And just to stir the COALS a bit myself. If you want a "no mess with,,, load it and forget it,,, Get an OWB..... The ONLY reason I fuss with mine is because I like to tinker...


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## Whitespider (Jan 13, 2015)

AIM said:


> *This thread has gone ballistic and i just can't keep up. If anyone wants to start a thread about "air under or over the fire" I'll chime in there.*


New thread started... the floor is yours.
*


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## tla100 (Jan 13, 2015)

If I have a lot of coals, it is usually after work, I sift with homemade tool, leave door wide open for a couple hours, heat pours out of stove and burns down good. Throw some kindling with a couple strips of paper, more wood over the rest of coals and come back ten minutes later and close door. Stir minimal coals in AM when wake up, throw 4-6 chunks of pine kindling with a few strips of paper, load wood, leave door open for 10 minutes, close door and go to work.

I don't remember as a kid having the old Fisher's or Woodland's holding coals that long.......good or bad I don't know, was a kid.

Although, if I have coals, pine kindling and a couple strips of newspaper and ten minutes I have a great fire. Starts a lot faster than a cold start. Stove usually burns 24/7

Works for me, I like fire and don't mind checking on it.....

A grate would seem like a PITA to me.....Mine has secondaries but is far from an Elitist, it was on sale for $300, marked down from $1100 or so.......I don't allow any commie bastards in my house...


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## cmsmoke (Jan 14, 2015)

Did any of you guys with coaling issues ever check for overdraft? May be off base, but could be...especially since it gets worse with low temps. outside.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> I have no ash pan. I burn between 3 and 4 cord a year depending on the winter we have with the majority of the wood being seasoned Doug Fir/Larch mix along with a bit of apple and mountain ash. I do burn a cord of lodgepole pine usually half at the beginning of the season and the other half at the end of the season. The stove has been burning 24/7 since late October here.
> 
> Clean wood is between 0.45 and 1.5% ash depending on wood species and various other factors so the ash generation should be relatively small. That means for the typical cord of firewood you should be somewhere between 10 and 45 pounds of ash. Wood ash is about 50 lb/cubic foot dry.
> 
> We maintain the house at a comfortable 72-74 through most of the house although the laundry room being the furthest away gets down into the 50's on really cold days since it's on the far corner of the house and sometimes the living room you can get baked out depending on how warm it is outside. When I load the stove for the last time around 10 or 11PM it runs from then until generally 7AM or 7:30 the next morning when I load it again. If it's really cold out the house dips down to 65-67 but if the temps outside are above 20ish the house will be about 68-70 at the reload.




Okay, It sounds like you have yours dialed in real well. That's good. The ash comment I made was based on my experience with an add on I ran for 15 years and it did have an ash pan. ( have an OWB now) About every 3 or 4 days I had to empty so when you made the comment about 6 to 8 weeks ...well you evidently have a built in ash HOPPER. Probably will store about 1 to 1 1/2 cubic feet. About 4 times larger than my ash tray on my old stove. And you burn about a 1/3 of what I did to heat my 2000 sq ft, 2 story 136 year old farm house. I live in eastern Iowa, our climate is probably just a little colder than yours I'm guessing.

At any rate lets amicably agree to disagree on any number of things and lets get back to helping those who haven't mastered their heating application as of yet....


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## GVS (Jan 14, 2015)

tla100 said:


> If I have a lot of coals, it is usually after work, I sift with homemade tool, leave door wide open for a couple hours, heat pours out of stove and burns down good. Throw some kindling with a couple strips of paper, more wood over the rest of coals and come back ten minutes later and close door. Stir minimal coals in AM when wake up, throw 4-6 chunks of pine kindling with a few strips of paper, load wood, leave door open for 10 minutes, close door and go to work.
> 
> I don't remember as a kid having the old Fisher's or Woodland's holding coals that long.......good or bad I don't know, was a kid.
> 
> ...



Yeah,I paid under $1000.00 for my "elitist" stove too. Doesn't sound all that elitist to me.Wonder what W/S paid for his "commoner" unit.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

GVS said:


> *Wonder what W/S paid for his "commoner" unit.*


Ummm... the term "elitist stove" ain't derived from the cost of the units, just as the term "smoke dragon" ain't derived from the from the fact they look like a dragon (and, they don't necessarily "smoke" more than an elitist stove either).
It's about the attitude of a few (I said "a few") who own them and see the non-elitist firebox owner as a lessor life-form... a scourge on the planet in need of eradication for the good of mankind... (i.e., my choice to use one should be legislated away by the more intelligent life-forms, such as themselves).

_*Elitist:*_ A person who believes that they are _superior to others_ because of their _intellect_, _social status_, wealth, _possessions_, or _ other factors_.
A person who believes in rule by an elite group... whom they generally consider themselves to be a member of.
_adjective:_ Characteristic of, or resembling a snob: (_snobbish, snobby, high-hat, snooty, stuck-up, uppish, uppity, pretentious, condescending, hoity-toity_).
_noun:_ One who _despises people or things __regarded as inferior_, especially because of _social or intellectual pretension_: (_snob, snoot_).

As far as what I paid for my furnace... well... I bought it used from a member here, and then did my own modifications. I have no problem stating exactly what I paid for it... but I don't think it would be appropriate because of the other member. So I'll just say... based on how several members here price firewood for sale... I have less in my furnace than it would cost me to buy a couple cord of firewood in several areas of the country.
*


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

OH‼ And I have even less than that in my elitist stove... the stove was given to me free, it came with stove pipe, and I spent something around 50-75 bucks on the modifications (don't remember exactly now).
I get a lot of free stuff... stoves, firewood, furniture, appliances, the flooring I put in the kitchen last year, even the 1991 Windstar van my wife drives was given to me. People (friends) like me (even if some of y'all don't) and know they can count on me... I'm always willin' to help someone out (as long as they're willin' to help themselves), no matter how nasty the job... ya' get back what ya' put in... the more ya' put in, the more ya' get back.
*


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Ummm... the term "elitist stove" ain't derived from the cost of the units, just as the term "smoke dragon" ain't derived from the from the fact they look like a dragon (and, they don't necessarily "smoke" more than an elitist stove either).
> It's about the attitude of a few (I said "a few") who own them and see the non-elitist firebox owner as a lessor life-form... a scourge on the planet in need of eradication for the good of mankind... (i.e., my choice to use one should be legislated away by the more intelligent life-forms, such as themselves).
> 
> _*Elitist:*_ A person who believes that they are _superior to others_ because of their _intellect_, _social status_, wealth, _possessions_, or _ other factors_.
> ...



That's a pretty big load of crapola you're shoveling there good buddy.

It's a shame you feel the need to bring lies like this to the forum.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

It's not nice to call someone a liar Del_... shame on you.
So... did you think I was talkin' 'bout you??
I know the skunk always smells its own stink first... but...
*


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> It's not nice to call someone a liar Del_... shame on you.


 

But that is exactly what you are doing.

No one here has suggested that they are a better person than another because of the wood stoves they use.

That's your fabrication.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

Del_ said:


> *No one here has suggested that they are a better person than another because of the wood stoves they use.*


No one here??  Is that some sort of joke??

Listen, I'm ain't gonna' go back and quote all the names and accusations that's been hurled at me over the last 3-4 years simply because I disagree the elitist firebox is the best thing since slice bread... because I disagree they're the be-all-to-end-all of wood stoves. I've even been accused of destroying the earth and being anti-American because of the type box I burn in (as well as because of my views). I've been called a cretin, scumbag, sleazeball, and I can't remember what all. Heck, just @slowp alone has come up with several names I had to look up the urban definition of. And then there's been the attacks on my character and intelligence. Good lord man, the thread that brought us the "giant pulsating brain" thing was one degrading innuendo after another.

Man... you really don't live in reality, do you??
*


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> Okay, It sounds like you have yours dialed in real well. That's good. The ash comment I made was based on my experience with an add on I ran for 15 years and it did have an ash pan. ( have an OWB now) About every 3 or 4 days I had to empty so when you made the comment about 6 to 8 weeks ...well you evidently have a built in ash HOPPER. Probably will store about 1 to 1 1/2 cubic feet. About 4 times larger than my ash tray on my old stove. And you burn about a 1/3 of what I did to heat my 2000 sq ft, 2 story 136 year old farm house. I live in eastern Iowa, our climate is probably just a little colder than yours I'm guessing.
> 
> At any rate lets amicably agree to disagree on any number of things and lets get back to helping those who haven't mastered their heating application as of yet....



I think what all the disagreement is about is that stove manufacturers do a very poor job of giving a realistic measure of heating performance. This means a person has to do extensive research before choosing a stove to make sure what they buy will work for them. I do think the newer combustion technology is sound and better than the pre-epa designs, however that being said many of the new stoves obviously don't work right for many people.

My point is we should be asking the right questions so that a list of stoves can be developed based on user feedback where they work and where they don't. I have a sneaking suspicion that for some of the stoves it's because of the stove design and the type of wood being burned. Hardwoods in my limited experience with them tend to have a longer coaling stage than softwoods which is obvious when I burn mountain ash or apple.

It's almost as if for the new stoves there needs to be a setting on the secondaries and primary air to adjust the ratio to a different setting when burning softwood versus hardwood. Either that or just buy a cat stove and be done with it. When I pull out the factory built fireplace in a few years, I'll likely move to a Blaze King cat stove myself.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

We don't seem to be able to have a rational discussion of these stoves, because like usual in the US these days everything is stated in terms of absolutes, and every issue accumulates so much emotional baggage it becomes impossible to discuss it.

WS usually states that the secondary combustion stoves do not and/or cannot work or be used for primary heat, or equivalent words to that effect, while contending he's just saying they don't work for him and defending against persecution. That irritates the many of us who actually use them for primary heat. Personally I object to the tactic of inflating what are for others of us minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless - it is to me a dis-information campaign based on unrelated idealogical issues of which I have no interest. There are people who read this stuff that do not know the background of the members and who are looking for real information, and that is obscured by noise, and this bothers me.

Pieces of steel and iron don't have political agendas or harbor elitist attitudes. These are stoves - certain types have advantages and disadvantages and particular characteristics, and some design implementations are better than others. Unfortunately we cannot have discussions about that because all of them get derailed.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> I think what all the disagreement is about is that stove manufacturers do a very poor job of giving a realistic measure of heating performance meaning a person has to do extensive research before choosing a stove to make sure what they buy will work for them. I do think the newer combustion technology is sound and better than the pre-epa designs, however that being said many of the new stoves obviously don't work right for many people.
> 
> My point is we should be asking the right questions so that a list of stoves can be developed based on user feedback where they work and where they don't. I have a sneaking suspicion that for some of the stoves it's because of the stove design and the type of wood being burned. Hardwoods in my limited experience with them tend to have a longer coaling stage than softwoods which is obvious when I burn mountain ash or apple.
> 
> It's almost as if for the new stoves there needs to be a setting on the secondaries and primary air to adjust the ratio to a different setting when burning softwood versus hardwood. Either that or just buy a cat stove and be done with it. When I pull out the factory built fireplace in a few years, I'll likely move to a Blaze King cat stove myself.




From what I have seen and read I would agree with that statement. I feel the manufacturers have tried to over simplify the controls or remove the air controls altogether. This would allow them to get the EPA certifications or/and make an excellent sales pitch to those not in the know about how 'easy " it is to run. No controls to mess with and so on. When a person buys it and his climate circumstances (polar vortex) reach the outer limits of the stove the provisions, we used to be able to make adjustments and be able to make it work through the cold spells. That ability, it seems, has been removed on most choices now. I see this as an undesirable intrusion in our daily life which I don't feel is warranted or necessary in most cases. 

I will concede in some areas of the country, due to the topography, there are times any additional pollution can be deemed as not only unwanted but harmful to some. Most of America doesn't fall under that category and I don't subscribe to the global warming ideas. Consequently those engineering and regulatory constraints placed on burner manufacturers are intrusive and take away our rights as consumers to buy what we want and tailor it to fit our needs.

And that I feel, is where we differ . But that's okay, probably nothing either you or I, do or say, will change any of it..

And the Cat issue isn't clear cut. I was told by a manufacturer that they need to be tested periodically and are expected to last approximately 5 seasons before they would need to be replaced. Estimated cost is 500.00 for a stove similar in size to what you would probably run.


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## 1project2many (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> I'm convinced that many people here have unrealistic expectations of how a wood stove should operate and that many people have chosen the incorrect stove for their application hence why they are unhappy.


Sounds about right. The trick is in figuring out what's right and wrong about a particular stove.




Cerran said:


> My point is we should be asking the right questions so that a list of stoves can be developed based on user feedback where they work and where they don't.


Yep. Once some trends become apparent it will be easier for people to avoid choosing the wrong stove.



Cerran said:


> It's almost as if for the new stoves there needs to be a setting on the secondaries and primary air to adjust the ratio to a different setting when burning softwood versus hardwood.


Energy Harvesters allowed variable primary / secondary adjustment back in the '80s. It worked, but people complained it required too much adjusting.

"Adjusting the air flow regulator helps provide proper combustion. The particular adjustment of the doors depends upon the draft of the particular chimney to which the stove then exhausts. Start by setting the secondary air regulator at about 1/2 to 1/4 the opening of the primary regulator (except for start-ups). Then make gradual adjustments until the optimum setting for the specific situation. Turn the regulator knob counterclockwise to loosen the regulators for adjustment. This knob should be kept tightened sufficiently to allow some resistance when the regulators are moved to prevent their slipping. Use removable knob to adjust regulators when warm. Set the bottom regulator first, and then adjust the top one. Once this tension has been set, there should be no need to adjust it more than once or twice a season. For overnight build a briskly burning fire to create about one to two inches of hot coals in the bottom. Then fill the stove, close the door. Adjust the secondary air full closed. Adjust the primary air to between 0 and 10% open. These adjustments may be varied for a particular installation."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4407265.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4407265.pdf



fixit1960 said:


> From what I have seen and read I would agree with that statement. I feel the manufacturers have tried to over simplify the controls or remove the air controls altogether.



See above air control instructions for '80s stove that's often credited with being a very early attempt at secondary burner with high efficiency. Single point control is more popular as most people don't want to "fiddle" with their wood stove.


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 14, 2015)

tla100 said:


> If I have a lot of coals, it is usually after work, I sift with homemade tool, leave door wide open for a couple hours, heat pours out of stove and burns down good. Throw some kindling with a couple strips of paper, more wood over the rest of coals and come back ten minutes later and close door. Stir minimal coals in AM when wake up, throw 4-6 chunks of pine kindling with a few strips of paper, load wood, leave door open for 10 minutes, close door and go to work.
> 
> I don't remember as a kid having the old Fisher's or Woodland's holding coals that long.......good or bad I don't know, was a kid.
> 
> ...


I will say it again, ANY stove that needs the door open for any reason except to put wood in is a poor design.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> From what I have seen and read I would agree with that statement. I feel the manufacturers have tried to over simplify the controls or remove the air controls altogether. This would allow them to get the EPA certifications or/and make an excellent sales pitch to those not in the know about how 'easy " it is to run. No controls to mess with and so on. When a person buys it and his climate circumstances (polar vortex) reach the outer limits of the stove the provisions, we used to be able to make adjustments and be able to make it work through the cold spells. That ability, it seems, has been removed on most choices now. I see this as an undesirable intrusion in our daily life which I don't feel is warranted or necessary in most cases.
> 
> I will concede in some areas of the country, due to the topography, there are times any additional pollution can be deemed as not only unwanted but harmful to some. Most of America doesn't fall under that category and I don't subscribe to the global warming ideas. Consequently those engineering and regulatory constraints placed on burner manufacturers are intrusive and take away our rights as consumers to buy what we want and tailor it to fit our needs.
> 
> ...



Actually you get get a Cat for around $160-200 and the people I know who have Blaze kings generally get about 6-8 seasons out of their cat.

It seems like stove setting should be able to be adjusedt at least by the stove shop for various wood types. Like I said, I do notice a much longer coaling stage on Hardwoods than on my softwoods which would need more primary air to burn down at the primary air inlet and less air to the secondaries.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

woodchuck357 said:


> I will say it again, ANY stove that needs the door open for any reason except to put wood in is a poor design.



Or startup. My stove won't draft from dead cold with the door closed.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

1project2many said:


> Energy Harvesters allowed variable primary / secondary adjustment back in the '80s. It worked, but people complained it required too much adjusting.


I'll be thought of as arrogant, but sadly most people seem to be unable to comprehend how much of anything works. Look at all the automatic stuff in cars - the defrosters must turn on the AC automatically, because how many understand the concept the water will condense out on cold surfaces under some conditions. Drivers would be unable to figure out what to do, even though that little button to turn on the AC and/or to change to recirculate is right there. So those of us who don't want to waste the energy to run the AC all the time the defrosters are on are out of luck. 

I simply know too many people who would not be able to figure out what to do with a couple of air holes in a steel box with a fire in it. Our education system has failed, and we spend too much time in the virtual world rather than experiencing how things work in the real world.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> Actually you get get a Cat for around $160-200 and the people I know who have Blaze kings generally get about 6-8 seasons out of their cat.
> 
> It seems like stove setting should be able to be adjusedt at least by the stove shop for various wood types. Like I said, I do notice a much longer coaling stage on Hardwoods than on my softwoods which would need more primary air to burn down at the primary air inlet and less air to the secondaries.



I had my Jotul F600CB set up to adjust secondary combustion air. It did allow for more heat output from a bed of coals but I took the modification off about six years ago because I just don't need it. I'm sure efficiency went up a tad, too, minus extra air just entering the air box and going up the flue without interacting with the coal bed.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I'll be thought of as arrogant, but sadly most people seem to be unable to comprehend how much of anything works. Look at all the automatic stuff in cars - the defrosters must turn on the AC automatically, because how many understand the concept the water will condense out on cold surfaces under some conditions. Drivers would be unable to figure out what to do, even though that little button to turn on the AC and/or to change to recirculate is right there. So those of us who don't want to waste the energy to run the AC all the time the defrosters are on are out of luck.
> 
> I simply know too many people who would not be able to figure out what to do with a couple of air holes in a steel box with a fire in it. Our education system has failed, and we spend too much time in the virtual world rather than experiencing how things work in the real world.



Given how many people I've helped set up wood stoves and had to explain that the wood they just got delivered two weeks ago was not "seasoned" that sounds about right. People just don't want to put any effort into understanding their situation these days.


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## 1project2many (Jan 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Look at all the automatic stuff in cars


You don't have to tell me. Not only are there too many automatic devices, but too many devices communicate with each other when there's no need for it.



Chris-PA said:


> Our education system has failed, and we spend too much time in the virtual world rather than experiencing how things work in the real world.


I also agree, but any in depth replies are likely to get this thread dragged to off-topic land.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> *WS usually states that the secondary combustion stoves do not and/or cannot work or be used for primary heat, or equivalent words to that effect, while contending he's just saying they don't work for him and defending against persecution. That irritates the many of us who actually use them for primary heat. Personally I object to the tactic of inflating what are for others of us minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless - it is to me a dis-information campaign based on unrelated idealogical issues of which I have no interest. There are people who read this stuff that do not know the background of the members and who are looking for real information, and that is obscured by noise, and this bothers me.*



That whole paragraph is crap Chris-PA... total crap.

I've never stated the elitist stoves do not/can not be used for heating... not even equivalent words. How many times do I have to correct such a claim? My contention has always been they are not _always_ the best choice for _all_ applications. I defy you to quote me stating, even equivalently, they always do not and/or can not ever work or be used for heating. I don't defend against persecution, or even claim to... but I do defend against the misrepresentation of my words, such as you just presented above.
Give me a friggin' break already‼

And inflating minor or non-issues?? So you're saying it's only an issue of significance if _*you*_ (and those who agree with you) think it is?? You pompous, haughty SOB.

You're advocating the censorship of information with the above statement because _*you*_ don't see it as worthy of consideration, because _*you*_ don't want it presented... what I see as significant or worthy is not up to _*your*_ higher intellectual standard and therefore insignificant.
If *you* don't see it as a significant issue or simply don't agree with it... it's just "noise" or "misinformation" and should be silenced because, according to _*you*_, it isn't "real" information. I just gotta' tell ya' man... friend or no friend... if you were standing in front of me right now...

Who's being ideological here??

For that matter... (Del_, are you paying attention??)... who's being elitist here??
*


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## X-S-FLA (Jan 14, 2015)

Being a newbie to this forum and to heating-with-wood, I'm largely ignorant on the subject.
When I get out of the South Florida oven for retirement, and being a bit of a survivalist, I
want to minimize my reliance on infrastructure. That said, if it weren't for EPA regs, I would
likely turn to the old fashioned wood-burning stove for several reasons. I too am a bit green
in that I've got a small solar system, a cistern, and capture my A/C drip water as well as rain.
Do I necessarily want to add crap to the air we breathe? Not really.
However, if/when $#!T hits the proverbial fan, I wouldn't want to worry about how I'll get
a replacement cat for the box I'll be forced to purchase / install. Getting rid of coals faster...?
Knowing the little I do...I'd simply find a way to supply more airflow; whether that means a
grate, drilling a hole, or opening the door a bit. I'll adapt. It also appears, based on responses,
that the type, and condition, of wood being burned could be a factor. Unfortunately, unless
we want to keep lighting a new batch of wood, the coals seem to be a necessary by-product
of the preceding burn cycle. For me, adding medium to high-tech equipment to regulate the
flow of air is, again, something I personally don't want to add. Granted, technology advances
can, and often do, positively affect our lives, but sometimes to good ol' ways just can't be
ignored.
Sorry for the intrusion into the 'heated' debate.
mike


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> That whole paragraph is crap Chris-PA... total crap.
> 
> I've never stated the elitist stoves do not/can not be used for heating... not even equivalent words. How many times do I have to correct such a claim? My contention has always been they are not _always_ the best choice for _all_ applications. I defy you to quote me stating, even equivalently, they always do not and/or can not ever work or be used for heating. I don't defend against persecution, or even claim to... but I do defend against the misrepresentation of my words, such as you just presented above.
> Give me a friggin' break already‼
> ...



You have to admit WS, you take every opportunity to bash on the newer designs even in situations where isn't not even certain the stove is the issue. It's a lot like a debate over fuel injection versus carburetors on cars, sure carburetors have their place but for most applications fuel injection is a far superior technology provided it is implemented properly.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> We don't seem to be able to have a rational discussion of these stoves, because like usual in the US these days everything is stated in terms of absolutes, and every issue accumulates so much emotional baggage it becomes impossible to discuss it.
> 
> WS usually states that the secondary combustion stoves do not and/or cannot work or be used for primary heat, or equivalent words to that effect, while contending he's just saying they don't work for him and defending against persecution. That irritates the many of us who actually use them for primary heat. Personally I object to the tactic of inflating what are for others of us minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless - it is to me a dis-information campaign based on unrelated idealogical issues of which I have no interest. There are people who read this stuff that do not know the background of the members and who are looking for real information, and that is obscured by noise, and this bothers me.
> 
> Pieces of steel and iron don't have political agendas or harbor elitist attitudes. These are stoves - certain types have advantages and disadvantages and particular characteristics, and some design implementations are better than others. Unfortunately we cannot have discussions about that because all of them get derailed.




Chris-PA from my perspective the "obscured by noise" statement seems Elitist on your part. No 2 ways around it. And just because it's Spidey's opinion are you automatically saying it should not be heard? This is still America and if we want to take the time to express our opinion of a product, it should be our right. Maybe the political meanderings are off base at times, but the facts about what works and what don't should not have to pass your test based on YOUR personal experience in order to be valid. He gives his opinion, you give yours and I give mine. We may not like each others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard......let the listeners sort them out. Just like in real life......


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> And inflating minor or non-issues?? So you're saying it's only an issue of significance if _*you*_ (and those who agree with you) think it is?? You pompous, haughty SOB.


Quite clearly I was not saying that. My actual statement was: 

"Personally I object to the tactic of inflating *what are for others of us* minor or non-issues into fatal flaws that would mean the designs are useless"

Which does not say nobody has experienced these issues, it means these issues are not problems for everyone - which we already know as people who have the exact same stove that you cannot make work are quite happy with the performance. Are there ways to fix these problems? Who knows, because such discussions are declared off topic by WS so nobody can find out that maybe these stoves work after all. 

My statement that you object to was in a comment lamenting the fact that we cannot have a discussion about the characteristics of these pieces of equipment, to learn what types and designs work best, what situations present problems and what can be done to mitigate them - like this thread started out to be before it was derailed like every other one. I'm hardly going to dig through your voluminous commentary about these "EPA" stoves to find if you may have mentioned they work for some a time or two - and then continued on about how air flow from the top doesn't work and one must have a grate and airflow from below, they have to be modified to work, ad nauseam. I'm not recalling much about how you used the PE Specturm without modifications, other than to have it utterly fail - it could not even raise your shop 10deg on a warm day. So I'm pretty clear on what you've been communicating, and I suspect my interpretation of it is not unique.

The sad thing is that I don't care in the least if someone burns a stove without cats or secondary combustion - my dad does and it works great for him - and I'd prefer that any further limitations were left to local governments. I am not on a crusade, I'd like to discuss how various stoves work, and perhaps learn a few things that might make heating with wood more effective.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> Chris-PA from my perspective the "obscured by noise" statement seems Elitist on your part. No 2 ways around it. And just because it's Spidey's opinion are you automatically saying it should not be heard? This is still America and if we want to take the time to express our opinion of a product, it should be our right. Maybe the political meanderings are off base at times, but the facts about what works and what don't should not have to pass your test based on YOUR personal experience in order to be valid. He gives his opinion, you give yours and I give mine. We may not like each others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard......let the listeners sort them out. Just like in real life......



That's a nice strawman argument there, but that isn't what he was saying. Expressing your opinion is fine, but complaining when you get your feet held to the fire for such opinions and asking for a reasonable basis for such opinions makes no sense. 

The only group I see here resorting to name calling is the group that doesn't like the newer design of stoves and then when we ask for solid reasons why we get ridiculed as being "elitist".


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> Chris-PA from my perspective the "obscured by noise" statement seems Elitist on your part. No 2 ways around it. And just because it's Spidey's opinion are you automatically saying it should not be heard? This is still America and if we want to take the time to express our opinion of a product, it should be our right. Maybe the political meanderings are off base at times, but the facts about what works and what don't should not have to pass your test based on YOUR personal experience in order to be valid. He gives his opinion, you give yours and I give mine. We may not like each others but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard......let the listeners sort them out. Just like in real life......


I'll stand by the noise comment. This thread is a perfect example - we could have talked more about coaling, what contributes to it and how to mitigate it - heck I and others tried tried to, only to be declared off-topic. Maybe I might learn some better techniques than the ones I mentioned. I'm hardly trying to shut down anyone's opinion, but continually forcing the discussion back to the same limited, tiresome old areas squashes any chance at learning.


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## X-S-FLA (Jan 14, 2015)

So, back to the coaling issue. Forgive me but would someone explain exactly
what the issue is? Wood burning down too fast to coals? Too many coals
accumulated? The desire to turn 'em into ash to get rid of 'em quicker?
PITA to separate them from ash?
It seems you want some coals left behind when you return home from a day's
work. When we do visit N. Ga. for a couple weeks, I always appreciate a few
coals left in the AM when I wake up. It's easier to get the next fire started.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

X-S-FLA said:


> So, back to the coaling issue. Forgive me but would someone explain exactly
> what the issue is? Wood burning down too fast to coals? Too many coals
> accumulated? The desire to turn 'em into ash to get rid of 'em quicker?
> PITA to separate them from ash?
> ...



The primary issue is with some types of stoves there seems to be an issue with a buildup of coals inside the firebox over time. The recurring theme seems to be that it's worse when the weather is cold and the user is utilizing hardwoods and not softwoods. Some users don't have the ability to turn the stove up during the burn cycle because they are away from the house during the day or asleep at night so the coals don't fully burn down since the primary air doesn't get turned up.

What's even more maddening is that not everyone has this issue even across the same stove models and there isn't enough data from users who do have the issue to understand if there is a root cause either in wood supply or specific stove design. Even stranger is that the problem seems to be limited to non-cat reburn stoves (or at least I've not heard of the issue with a cat stove).


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

No Chris-PA, it was crystal friggin' clear what you were saying... and you're still sayin' it...


Chris-PA said:


> *...but continually forcing the discussion back to the same limited, tiresome old areas squashes any chance at learning.*


Because the discussion ain't worthy of _*your*_ higher intellectual standard it is therefore limited and tiresome.
Maybe you didn't notice... but a couple of 'em were asking questions about how the grates were added, what materials were used, how the air was directed under them, and so-forth... they were actually trying to learn something. But see, _*you*_ didn't care about that, it was beneath _*your*_ intellectual standard and therefore limited and tiresome... insignificant, not a "learning" opportunity. The idea of cutting and modifying an elitist stove is "hillbilly engineering" in _*your*_ mind... not worthy of serious consideration... limited, tiresome, insignificant... just noise or misinformation, certainly not "real" information... a dis-information campaign... and worst of all, "irritating" to _*your*_ higher intellectual self.

This thread was not about burning down excessive coals... it was about avoiding the building of them in the first place.
You were off topic...
If you wanna' learn new ways of burning them down after they've formed... start your own damn thread, ask the damn question.
*


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## Erik B (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> I think what all the disagreement is about is that stove manufacturers do a very poor job of giving a realistic measure of heating performance. This means a person has to do extensive research before choosing a stove to make sure what they buy will work for them. I do think the newer combustion technology is sound and better than the pre-epa designs, however that being said many of the new stoves obviously don't work right for many people.
> 
> My point is we should be asking the right questions so that a list of stoves can be developed based on user feedback where they work and where they don't. I have a sneaking suspicion that for some of the stoves it's because of the stove design and the type of wood being burned. Hardwoods in my limited experience with them tend to have a longer coaling stage than softwoods which is obvious when I burn mountain ash or apple.
> 
> It's almost as if for the new stoves there needs to be a setting on the secondaries and primary air to adjust the ratio to a different setting when burning softwood versus hardwood. Either that or just buy a cat stove and be done with it. When I pull out the factory built fireplace in a few years, I'll likely move to a Blaze King cat stove myself.


Why would you be removing the factory built fireplace? I also have a factory built zero clearance fireplace that I installed an insert into.


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## X-S-FLA (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> The primary issue is with some types of stoves there seems to be an issue with a buildup of coals inside the firebox over time. The recurring theme seems to be that it's worse when the weather is cold and the user is utilizing hardwoods and not softwoods. Some users don't have the ability to turn the stove up during the burn cycle because they are away from the house during the day or asleep at night so the coals don't fully burn down since the primary air doesn't get turned up.
> 
> What's even more maddening is that not everyone has this issue even across the same stove models and there isn't enough data from users who do have the issue to understand if there is a root cause either in wood supply or specific stove design. Even stranger is that the problem seems to be limited to non-cat reburn stoves (or at least I've not heard of the issue with a cat stove).



Okay, so, you want some coals but not an excessive amount to chew up the available
volume in the box when you have to reload...right?
Would there be any tie-in with the colder temps and wind-speed outside? If yes, then
perhaps a low-tech solution:
Install some kind of wind-sock device outside, have it capture the wind (air-flow) and
funnel it into something like that flexible clothes dryer ducting. Venturi that down to,
say, a 1" I.D. hose, bring that in to the stove. Adapt it to a manifold that spreads out
the inbound airflow to the coal-bed. This way, if there's more wind outside (implying
colder inside temps ?), some of it will be directed in to coax those pesky coals.
Stupid? or doable? I agree it's a bit clugy but...
I suppose you'd need some kind of check valve in the circuit...
heck, whada I know


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

Erik B said:


> Why would you be removing the factory built fireplace? I also have a factory built zero clearance fireplace that I installed an insert into.



Because I'm going to knock out the hideous lava rock surround and then remove the fireplace and go to a free standing stove. I have plenty of other projects that have priority before then however.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

Heck Chris, just the term "elitist stove" is "irritating" to you.
And it means nothing, it's just a slang label no different than calling a log cut to firebox length a "round"... which it ain't, it's cylinder.
*


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## Erik B (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> Because I'm going to knock out the hideous lava rock surround and then remove the fireplace and go to a free standing stove. I have plenty of other projects that have priority before then however.


Is your fire place on an outside wall? Mine is. A pic of your existing setup would be nice. Thanks


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Because the discussion ain't worthy of _*your*_ higher intellectual standard it is therefore limited and tiresome.
> Maybe you didn't notice... but a couple of 'em were asking questions about how the grates were added, what materials were used, how the air was directed under them, and so-forth... they were actually trying to learn something. But see, _*you*_ didn't care about that, it was beneath _*your*_ intellectual standard and therefore limited and tiresome... insignificant, not a "learning" opportunity. The idea of cutting and modifying an elitist stove is "hillbilly engineering" in _*your*_ mind... not worthy serious consideration... limited, tiresome, insignificant... just noise or misinformation, certainly not "real" information... a dis-information campaign... and worst of all, "irritating" to _*your*_ higher intellectual self.


Then perhaps you will quote where I wrote anything about grates in this thread, or in any way discouraged those discussions. On second though don't bother as this will be my last response to you - once again you've turned a thread into something all about you.



Whitespider said:


> And it means nothing, it's just a slang label no different than calling a log cut to firebox length a "round"


It might be no different if "round" were a pejorative term in the way "elitist" is being used, but it isn't as you well know. Quite obviously there is a difference, although you would like the "elitist" term to stick as it furthers your agenda. Typical of you.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

Erik B said:


> Is your fire place on an outside wall? Mine is. A pic of your existing setup would be nice. Thanks



Yeah it's on an outside wall. First picture is the reload about 10 minutes ago and the amount of coals I have after loading the stove this AM with two smaller pieces at 7:30.

The loaded picture is how I load the stove typically but I can pack more in there if I need more heat or get more creative with the loading.

The final picture is about 1 minute after I've closed the stove door and opened the primary and secondary air.

The ash buildup inside is I'm fairly certain since a day after Thanksgiving although I'm not sure if my 11 year old ever shoveled any ash out at some point when he loaded it. IN either case it doesn't seem atypical since the weather hasn't been cold (mid 20's to low 30's) and wood usage hasn't been very high.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

Funny how I make this about me... I was pretty sure my last two posts were about _*you*_ Chris... not me.
Yep... I just read 'em again... they were about _*you*_... not me.
But don't go away mad... heck, I should be the one mad and I'm already over it.
*


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *...I'm going to knock out the hideous lava rock surround...*


I kind'a like the looks of that rock.
But, at the same time, I ain't seein' the rest of the room either.
*


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## Erik B (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> Yeah it's on an outside wall. First picture is the reload about 10 minutes ago and the amount of coals I have after loading the stove this AM with two smaller pieces at 7:30.
> 
> The loaded picture is how I load the stove typically but I can pack more in there if I need more heat or get more creative with the loading.
> 
> ...


You have a way more massive set up than I have. I have an Earth Stove, Hotshot model. Pic attached. Just red brick around the fireplace.


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## cmsmoke (Jan 14, 2015)

How about the overdraft question?


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

cmsmoke said:


> How about the overdraft question?


I'm not sure if it's overdraft, but I can see if you have a lot of draft and a stove where the secondary air can not be controlled it could contribute to coaling. You could get too much air on top with not enough primary air to the bottom of the fire. The fire up top would generate ash while the bottom would smolder. If stacking methods block air flow through the wood it would make it worse.


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## cmsmoke (Jan 14, 2015)

I don' understand why you can build a fire on the ground and it burn to fine ash, but these few can't make it happen in a stove. Granted you have to keep the pieces together to burn completely. Now put you leaf blower across the top of it...what would happen? I don't believe the coaling has anything to do with grates or secondary burn. No one with the problem wants to say if they had checked for overdraft with a reliable device.


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## chadihman (Jan 14, 2015)

Do I have the power to dump this thread?

It's been so far blown off topic and there's no chance bouncing back. I remember well now why I don't post much over here. I feel much better over in the chainsaw forum. 

Thanks to you guys who added great on topic discussions.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Do I have the power to dump this thread?
> 
> It's been so far blown off topic and there's no chance bouncing back. I remember well now why I don't post much over here. I feel much better over in the chainsaw forum.
> 
> Thanks to you guys who added great on topic discussions.




Don't give up on us yet! See my suggestion below:





Chris-PA said:


> I'm not sure if it's overdraft, but I can see if you have a lot of draft and a stove where the secondary air can not be controlled it could contribute to coaling. You could get too much air on top with not enough primary air to the bottom of the fire. The fire up top would generate ash while the bottom would smolder. If stacking methods block air flow through the wood it would make it worse.



Chris I don't see why over draft would only be affecting the secondary air. Over draft probably affects both primary and secondary air.

If there is no secondary combustion because all of the volatile gasses have been burnt off already then the excess secondary likely only serves to cool down the stove resulting in reduced heat output.

Due to the design of my Jotul the secondary air input if hard to get to as it's up inside the back of the stove a couple of inches.

I've blocked all secondary air testing to see if it does result in a hotter stove and a more rapid burn down of a large bed of coals.

It does.

So instead of leaving the door open if the original poster would see if he can find the secondary air input open and block it up it would be interesting to hear if his results are like mine, a faster burning and higher heat output of a 'coal only' fire.


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## chadihman (Jan 14, 2015)

cmsmoke said:


> How about the overdraft question?


I had a manometer hooked up to my pipe a couple years ago and my pipe hardy drafts cold and is normal during a fire but naturally it's high when it's colder outside with a hot fire in the box. 
I'm not sure why a strong draft would make coaling worse. I would think that primary and secondary air would get more air in a high draft situation. If anything make the coals disappear faster. So much heat is generated in my secondary fire that I almost completely shut my stove down then after the gasses burn up there's not enough air to burn coals fast enough. More air would make my secondary fire to hot and short. This is why I think an actuator wired to a timer would be perfect. I could get a efficient secondary fire then five hours later the timer would open the primary air with an actuator and effectively burn the coals and heat more effectively in the coal stage.


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## TBrown (Jan 14, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Do I have the power to dump this thread?
> 
> It's been so far blown off topic and there's no chance bouncing back. I remember well now why I don't post much over here. I feel much better over in the chainsaw forum.
> 
> Thanks to you guys who added great on topic discussions.


As the original poster you can delete the thread. Look under thread tools


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## cmsmoke (Jan 14, 2015)

OK, then your problem and the problem of others who have posted must not be the same. Sorry I got caught up in it. Why not go to a thermostatic spring type control. Closes of air when hot and opens as it cools off. It sounds like you have done the experimentation. Keep it simple. Plenty of stoves use them successfully.
Edit: This method may be more beneficial, because it would coincide with the heat output, not time. In other words, there may be times when the fire is out before the timer opens the air. Worse yet is if it would open while still going strong.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

Here's a really good article on over-draft and dealing with it that I've linked to before.

http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

It indicates the fire burns too fast with an overdraft condition... which I suppose (actually at one time I was convinced) could build excessive coals. I believed it was my problem after much frustration and research... but closing the flue damper (one method of dealing with it described in the article) to a dozen different setting didn't make any difference on the excessive coaling. Although, closing it about 2/3 did lengthen the effective heating time some. I also have a flue damper on it out in the shop, and I've determined I get the best heating results with it closed just short of ½ way... but it hasn't done anything to reduce the coaling issue.
*


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## 1project2many (Jan 14, 2015)

cmsmoke said:


> I don' understand why you can build a fire on the ground and it burn to fine ash, but these few can't make it happen in a stove.


Not all fires on the ground burn to fine ash. But in the stove there are a couple of different issues with coals. Number one on the list is not that the coals don't burn down all the way. The primary issue is that when secondary combustion stops and there are only coals left, the stove does not put out enough heat to maintain temperature. If more wood is added so secondary combustion starts and heat output increases, eventually there are only coals again and heat output decreases. This happens so often that eventually the firebox is filled with coals and there's no room to add more wood. Comments about the coals being smothered because ash is produced on top of the coals, and about coals being left over unburnt, are evidence that airflow in the firebox (or another factor) doesn't encourage the coals on the bottom to burn. 



cmsmoke said:


> Granted you have to keep the pieces together to burn completely. Now put you leaf blower across the top of it...what would happen?


A leaf blower would blow away ash as it is produced so only coals would remain in contact with air.



Del_ said:


> If there is no secondary combustion because all of the volatile gasses have been burnt off already then the excess secondary likely only serves to cool down the stove resulting in reduced heat output.



But in my barn stove there do not seem to be separate sources of primary and secondary air. They appear to be delivered through the same plenum. "Primary" air is only distinguished by the path it takes... down the inside of the glass door and presumably over the floor. To get primary air from a separate source you're forced to open the door.

I will say that it takes some practice (with my problem stove) to find the balance between coals and wood. There's a tendency to try and fuel for max heat output but that just doesn't work. If I maintain the balance between coals and wood/secondary then eventually the stove gets pretty dang warm. But it takes time. Overfueling in an attempt to generate more heat in less time results in more coal buildup and greater high to low temperature variations.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I had a manometer hooked up to my pipe a couple years ago and my pipe hardy drafts cold and is normal during a fire but naturally it's high when it's colder outside with a hot fire in the box.
> I'm not sure why a strong draft would make coaling worse. I would think that primary and secondary air would get more air in a high draft situation. If anything make the coals disappear faster. So much heat is generated in my secondary fire that I almost completely shut my stove down then after the gasses burn up there's not enough air to burn coals fast enough. More air would make my secondary fire to hot and short. This is why I think an actuator wired to a timer would be perfect. I could get a efficient secondary fire then five hours later the timer would open the primary air with an actuator and effectively burn the coals and heat more effectively in the coal stage.



While you're experimenting you might want to try setting up the timer to close all secondary air input and see what that does. Secondary air when not needed for combustion not only takes heat from the stove.....it cools down the chimney some lowering draft.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 14, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Chris I don't see why over draft would only be affecting the secondary air. Over draft probably affects both primary and secondary air.


On some secondary combustion stoves the secondary air cannot be controlled - it is always wide open. Therefore if you stop down the air only the primary is reduced. So the balance changes. With good draft you could burn the top too fast while the bottom burns too slow. 

I have have one that is this way, but it's on a shorter flue. The other has a single control that limits both primary and secondary. I much prefer this system.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

1project2many said:


> But in my barn stove there do not seem to be separate sources of primary and secondary air. They appear to be delivered through the same plenum. "Primary" air is only distinguished by the path it takes... down the inside of the glass door and presumably over the floor. To get primary air from a separate source you're forced to open the door.
> 
> I will say that it takes some practice (with my problem stove) to find the balance between coals and wood. There's a tendency to try and fuel for max heat output but that just doesn't work. If I maintain the balance between coals and wood/secondary then eventually the stove gets pretty dang warm. But it takes time. Overfueling in an attempt to generate more heat in less time results in more coal buildup and greater high to low temperature variations.



Yes, it might be hard to shut of secondary air in some designs. 

It would be better to have some experiment with easier designs to test if my theory holds true.

I know it works on my Jotul F600CB.

Secondary air in my Jotul enters the stove the same place as primary air, in the back bottom of the stove. There is a 3/8 X 3 inch slot up inside the stove that leads to the secondary combustion air input tubes. I controlled secondary air by inserting a piece of sheet metal up into this slot. By pulling a handle forwards or pushing it backwared(a stove poker handle) that was mounted to the bottom of the stove and ran to the back attached to a piece of sheet metal that went through the slot I was able to vary secondary air input. Secondary air input change results could be seen instantly when the stove was in high secondary air mode. After secondary combustion was over I would push the handle in and shut off almost all secondary air input.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> On some secondary combustion stoves the secondary air cannot be controlled - it is always wide open. Therefore if you stop down the air only the primary is reduced. So the balance changes. With good draft you could burn the top too fast while the bottom burns too slow.
> 
> I have have one that is this way, but it's on a shorter flue. The other has a single control that limits both primary and secondary. I much prefer this system.



The Jotul F600Cb has secondary air that is always wide open. That doesn't mean mods can't be made to control secondary air input only. It took a second control.


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## zogger (Jan 14, 2015)

Trying to think of a way to lift the coals so you can add wood underneath them, then let the coals back down. Closest I have come is fast bucket action via toploading.

Maybe a set of rods close together..hmm a two piece scoop with fingers, pick coals up with finger scoop, hold up for some clearance, shove in wood underneath, lay it back down, and gradually pull out the lower finger scoop while pushing a flat pusher thing on top.


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## cmsmoke (Jan 14, 2015)

The way I understand it 1project2many, the OP doesn't have this issue or the issues of ash covering the coals, as long as he opens the air feed back up after the secondaries are done. I have never saw a campfire not burn to ash when tended the way I explained.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

zogger said:


> *Trying to think of a way to lift the coals so you can add wood underneath them, then let the coals back down.*


Well heck man, you had a better idea in that other thread (can't remember which one)...
Remember?? Just flip the stove upside down‼


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

cmsmoke said:


> *The way I understand it... the OP doesn't have this issue or the issues of ash covering the coals, as long as he opens the air feed back up after the secondaries are done.*


I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does _speculate_ that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
*


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## laynes69 (Jan 14, 2015)

I do remember accumulating too many coals in the old furnace. It was something around 20 below and windy. We were pushing the thing to its limits, and there were so many coals, we could add little wood. The only thing we could do in that situation was to set an alarm clock, wake at 2am or wake to a cold house. 

Initially when we installed our new furnace, we couldn't keep up with heating demand. We resorted to stuffing the box full on top of a huge coalbed, which just made things worse. I also choose to burn the largest rounds that were half seasoned thinking it would be okay. As time went on and year after year we buttoned up our home, the problem dissapeared. Instead of fighting it, it now benefits us. So in a home that's drafty and uninsulated, it's a nusciense. If the home is tighter and enough heat is taken from the coalbed, it's a benefit. In both scenarios they function the same, it's just for one it's the wrong tool for the job. Either way coals can and will burn down on grates or firebrick. It comes down to preference. Every year on numerous boards, when the weather turns for the worse, these threads pop up. And a large majority of complaints is the lack of heat and heavy coaling.


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## chadihman (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Here's a really good article on over-draft and dealing with it that I've linked to before.
> 
> http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm
> 
> ...


I like these kind of responses.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

It doesn't sound like speculation to me. It sounds like on days off he's had the coal build up problem and being home at the time he's opened the air control up and it's worked, and now he's wants to automate the process. Why would you automate a process without giving it a manual try.



Whitespider said:


> I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does _speculate_ that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
> *






chadihman said:


> I have a quadra fire 5700 wood stove and I love my burn times and heat output. My problem is I'm accumulating cherry red coals faster than I can burn them now that it's cold and I'm feeding the stove full.
> My wife and I work away so I build big fires in the am and before bed. My stove puts out a lot of heat throughout the secondary burn of the gasses but after that I have charred pieces of wood that need more air to deplete them and get more heat from them.
> I want to hook an electric actuator to my air control and control it with a digital timer. I'd set it so after five hours give or take the actuator would power up and open my air control while I'm at work. Then I wouldn't have try to burn so many coals down before loading again.


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## laynes69 (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does _speculate_ that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
> *


I will say 100% that once secondary combustion stops and and the damper is opened, or primary air is increased during the coaling stage, it eliminates coals, while producing alot of heat. That's how our furnace operates, a majority of the heat is produced when the furnace is in active burn. Once that's done, the temperature reduces, causing the house to drop in temp. The damper opens completely, the coalbed remains bright, and once heating demand it met, it closes. If this didn't happen, I would wake to a huge coalbed that would be a problem. That's why I load based on heating demand. When we had temps below zero and windchills close to 40 below here recently, I loaded our furnace at 9pm. When I woke at 4:30am, the only thing in front was ash in the firebox, and the rear of the firebox had a coalbed glowing white from the base to the top of the firebox. The coalbed burned from front to back, while keeping the house above 70 degrees overnight.


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## chadihman (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does _speculate_ that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
> *


Let me clear this up. My problem with coals is only when I'm filling the stove to its gills with hardwood to produce enough heat to keep my house above 70 deg while my wife and I are at work for 8-10 hours. When I get home the stove is half full of ash covered coals. I open the stove air supply and usually throw a small piece of wood on top of the coals. It takes a couple hours to get the coals burnt down. In the meantime the house is cooling down. When I'm home I can just open the air supply and the coals burn down before the house cools down. 

My quadrafire has a start up air control that let's air in four 1/2'' holes three inches from the floor in the rear of the stove it also let's air in the front ledge one inch from the floor. The main air control feeds the air wash and the bottom front holes. I want to add the timed or temperature controlled actuator to open the startup air as this works the best at burning up coals.


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## Whitespider (Jan 14, 2015)

So, if I'm getting this, you want to automatically open the "start up" air along the bottom of the fire box... not the primary or secondary combustion air?? And this is what you've verified to help with the coaling issue in your box??
My stove doesn't have such a thing. Man, (I'm assuming) that's different than anyone was thinkin' in this thread. I don't believe that's a manufacturer "recommended" procedure (but that's only a guess). Anyway... that's a lot closer to air under the fire than it is air over the fire. If you're not worried about a safety issue while you're away (and I'm not sayin' there is one, 'cause I don't know)... it sounds good to me. Any air coming in close to the coal bed and _blowin'_ directly into it, even if it ain't under it, is gonna' be better than air _flowin'_ over it (IMO).

I'll be real interested in the results...
*


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## chadihman (Jan 14, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> So, if I'm getting this, you want to automatically open the "start up" air along the bottom of the fire box... not the primary or secondary combustion air?? And this is what you've verified to help with the coaling issue in your box??
> My stove doesn't have such a thing. Man, that's different than anyone was thinkin' in this thread. I don't believe that's a manufacturer "recommended" procedure (but that's only a guess). Anyway... that's a lot closer to air under the fire than it is air over the fire. If you're not worried about a safety issue while you're away (and I'm not sayin' there is one, 'cause I don't know)... it sounds good to me. Any air coming in close to the coal bed and _blowin'_ directly into it, even if it ain't under it, is gonna' be better than air _flowin'_ over it (IMO).
> 
> I'll be real interested in the results...
> *


Correct. I want to automatically open the startup air control that let's a large amount of air in the bottom front and back of the stove. The start up air feeds under the coals when it's deep in coals.


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## Cerran (Jan 14, 2015)

The startup air on your 5700 is on a mechanical timer correct? I believe all the ACC stoves by Quadrafire are.


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## Del_ (Jan 14, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Correct. I want to automatically open the startup air control that let's a large amount of air in the bottom front and back of the stove. The start up air feeds under the coals when it's deep in coals.



Maybe a thermostatically controlled damper on that startup air input would be best. That would greatly reduce the chance of a timer like devise opening with a large fuel load and over firing the wood stove.

Please do consider a device to close secondary air. I'm telling you, it works here. Of course we have quite different wood stoves with mine having 'full open' secondary air at all times. I have to primary air supply routes. One is an air wash that flows downwards in front of the glass doors. The second primary in an 'air head' that sits just inside the center of the glass doors and has five small openings about one inch above the floor of the stove. The air from the air head 'drills' holes in any coal bed. When I close secondary combustion air I can see the 'drilling' level increase.


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## chadihman (Jan 14, 2015)

Cerran said:


> The startup air on your 5700 is on a mechanical timer correct? I believe all the ACC stoves by Quadrafire are.


Yes the start up air control is on a spring operated timer. If I push it open all the way then slide it back closed then the timer closes it. If i push it open and dont close it it stays open.



Del_ said:


> Maybe a thermostatically controlled damper on that startup air input would be best. That would greatly reduce the chance of a timer like devise opening with a large fuel load and over firing the wood stove.
> 
> Please do consider a device to close secondary air. I'm telling you, it works here. Of course we have quite different wood stoves with mine having 'full open' secondary air at all times. I have to primary air supply routes. One is an air wash that flows downwards in front of the glass doors. The second primary in an 'air head' that sits just inside the center of the glass doors and has five small openings about one inch above the floor of the stove. The air from the air head 'drills' holes in any coal bed. When I close secondary combustion air I can see the 'drilling' level increase.


 Yes I will consider closing the secondary air. My secondary air is not controllable but the air tubes all connect to a manifold with a roughly one inch opening to feed all the tubes. I could pretty easily make a flap to close off the secondary manifold hole.


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## tla100 (Jan 14, 2015)

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if you have any faster burning/hotter woods, mix with your hardwood. I would give it a try. I usually have for sure 2 different types of wood in when loading. 

Does it sit and cool down and you are left with charcoal, or does it finally burn out completely if you let it sit?


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## chadihman (Jan 15, 2015)

tla100 said:


> Not sure if this was mentioned, but if you have any faster burning/hotter woods, mix with your hardwood. I would give it a try. I usually have for sure 2 different types of wood in when loading.
> 
> Does it sit and cool down and you are left with charcoal, or does it finally burn out completely if you let it sit?


Most times especially if its all hardwood. It'll almost die out. The corners are cooled down charcoal.
Could be that my secondary air supply is too great. If it was reduced maybe I could let more air in pn the primary control as the secondary fire wouldn't be as hot.


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## Whitespider (Jan 15, 2015)

One of the things I tried with my PE was disconnecting the linkage between the primary and secondary controls and running them independently. It didn't seem to make any difference after secondary combustion stopped, even with the secondary completely closed... meaning the coaling issue wasn't changed. I did a "smoke bomb" test several times so I could watch the air flow in the box... the secondary air never made it to the coals, it just flowed out the flue. Watching the primary wasn't as easy because the smoke flows down the door restricting view clarity. But, I was able to see it flowed down the door, turning into the coal bed briefly, and then rising up and out the flue... it never even made it half way across the coal bed. As the coals slowly died, the air (or smoke) traveled a progressively shorter distance across the coals.

That explained why the rear half or more of the coal bed wouldn't heat, and totally died out. Doing same primary air smoke test with the grate in place, I could watch the smoke flow under the grate, where surprisingly it mostly disappeared... I assumed the introduced smoke was being consumed (burned) as it flowed up through the coal bed (shrug).

My PE has an ash drawer under the stove where the air enters the firebox... I just used damp, wadded up newspaper in the ash drawer for the "smoke bomb". It made a lot of smoke, which was adjustable by the amount used... and you could watch exactly what the air was doing in the box during the coaling stage (except for the restricted clarity from the air wash with primary open).
*


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## Whitespider (Jan 15, 2015)

Like this...


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## 1project2many (Jan 15, 2015)

My Englander uses a ceramic board to provide heat for secondary. The board is removable. It's supposed to be installed with the gap at the front to allow smoke to exit. I slide the board so smoke exits in the back.


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## Cerran (Jan 15, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Most times especially if its all hardwood. It'll almost die out. The corners are cooled down charcoal.
> Could be that my secondary air supply is too great. If it was reduced maybe I could let more air in pn the primary control as the secondary fire wouldn't be as hot.



Which seems to lead a lot of creedence to the idea that some of the stoves out there aren't configured for hardwood. Quadrafire is a PNW company and I would bet most of their stoves are cordwood tested on doug fir or larch. Now we need some reps from the stove companies affected to listen to the complaints.


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## Cerran (Jan 15, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> One of the things I tried with my PE was disconnecting the linkage between the primary and secondary controls and running them independently. It didn't seem to make any difference after secondary combustion stopped, even with the secondary completely closed... meaning the coaling issue wasn't changed. I did a "smoke bomb" test several times so I could watch the air flow in the box... the secondary air never made it to the coals, it just flowed out the flue. Watching the primary wasn't as easy because the smoke flows down the door restricting view clarity. But, I was able to see it flowed down the door, turning into the coal bed briefly, and then rising up and out the flue... it never even made it half way across the coal bed. As the coals slowly died, the air (or smoke) traveled a progressively shorter distance across the coals.
> 
> That explained why the rear half or more of the coal bed wouldn't heat, and totally died out. Doing same primary air smoke test with the grate in place, I could watch the smoke flow under the grate, where surprisingly it mostly disappeared... I assumed the introduced smoke was being consumed (burned) as it flowed up through the coal bed (shrug).
> 
> ...



Which is why the stove companies generally tell you to rake the coals to the front when reloading, but if you have too many coals that is impossible to do effectively. Now we actually seem to be getting to a root cause of the issue people are experiencing.


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## fixit1960 (Jan 15, 2015)

Cerran said:


> Which is why the stove companies generally tell you to rake the coals to the front when reloading, but if you have too many coals that is impossible to do effectively. Now we actually seem to be getting to a root cause of the issue people are experiencing.



They evidently have the design parameters so tight in order to meet the regulatory criteria that using another "grade" of wood will greatly diminish the stove performance. Unless there is a way to introduce more air where you need it, when you need it, it is a one wood stove!!


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## Cerran (Jan 15, 2015)

fixit1960 said:


> They evidently have the design parameters so tight in order to meet the regulatory criteria that using another "grade" of wood will greatly diminish the stove performance. Unless there is a way to introduce more air where you need it, when you need it, it is a one wood stove!!



I don't think that is necessarily the case. This really might be the case that they build a design, test it with a couple types of wood, make sure it passes the EPA tests and not go any further and test with hardwoods and softwoods. Never underestimate the laziness of manufacturers if someone doesn't hold their feet to the fire. Also, solving an issue like this isn't an easy task when not every stove user has the issue. There does seem to be a common denominator for when it occurs from the experience here however.


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## Whitespider (Jan 15, 2015)

Cerran said:


> *Which seems to lead a lot of creedence to the idea that some of the stoves out there aren't configured for hardwood.*


And that sort'a brings full circle again, to what I've said many times...

The stoves are "configured" to pass EPA testing first... anything else must be, out of necessity, a distant second. If it can't pass the tests, it can't be sold, and at that point how well it does or does not work becomes meaningless. The tests are performed with fir 2x4 and/or 4x4 dimensional lumber nailed together with spacers between them... the design must pass those tests using that fuel. It does not matter if the stove is made in the Oregon, Texas, Iowa, Connecticut, somewhere in Canada, or overseas... they all must pass the same EPA testing using the same fir boards, spaced and nailed into what is called a "crib". The only thing that changes is the size of the "crib" and the size of the boards depending on the size of the box.

The manufacturer is in a (sort'a) catch-22. If they listen to customer requests for changes, they must re-certify, which ain't cheap (neither is making changes). If the changes result in EPA test failure, the manufacturer has wasted valuable time and resources. This means the manufacturer will need to run several "practice" tests of his own during the development of changes or a new model... the time and resources expended doing those "practice" tests ain't cheap either. And the tests specify more than just fuel... for example, the door or "start up air" can only be left open for a specified time during start-up, chimney height is specified, etc., etc., etc. The stove must pass testing under very specific, narrowly defined conditions. It actually is almost magic that they work as well as they do for so many users... but to expect them to perform well for all users, under all the variables of the "real" world?? Well... like I've said... you would have to believe in magic to expect that. And that's also why I've asked so many times... why is it so hard for some to believe that the EPA certified type of box is not _always_ gonna' be the best choice for _every_ application?? Common sense has to tell you it just flat can't be... it just flat ain't possible‼

Now, I gotta' believe that the majority of stove makers (heck, maybe all of 'em) do the absolute very best they can with the limitations placed on them by EPA regulations. I don't see the design faults as manufacturer fault, or even poor workmanship... my PE is the best quality, most solidly built appliance I've ever owned. I fault the ridiculous, one-size-fits-all EPA emissions requirements (no requirement for heating efficiency at all, it ain't even referenced)... it really is plain stupid. And now they plan on making emissions requirements even more restrictive (but still no heating efficiency requirement)... it's total lunacy. There's gonna' be more and more complaints over the next few years... common sense has to tell you there will be... it just has to tell you that‼ There ain't no magic... we still live in a "real" world.
*


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