# Best way to cut down trees?



## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

I`m not being a smart ass but it ain`t quite that easy.

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ageng/safety/ae1025w.htm

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/logging_advisor/mainpage.html


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## WRW (Jun 27, 2002)

Ginger,
OSHA has a site on safe felling: http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/logging_advisor/manual/felling/felling.html
Any good search engine will list several sites. Just search "tree felling" and pick one. There are several good schools available also, though they may teach more to specific groups, like loggers or arborists. Good luck!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2002)

Oh hi Ginger, great to see you again,
Falling trees is very simple in theory, however in practice there are many variables that must be considered as well as safety issues if we are to get the tree down safely and where we want it to lay for ease of preparing it for removal from the bush.
Anyway, lets start off with a few basics first. Safety is of paramount concern here. Not only must you have a though knowledge of you saw and it's operation, but you also need the proper personal safety gear. You are off to a good start because you already have the chaps, suspenders and helmet with muffs.
Ok, lets dump an 18" stem together as though I was there in the forest with you for the first time. We take your 044 with a razor sharp chain and 16" bar and make the first cut on a level plane about 10" above ground level approx 6" deep into the wood or 1/3 of it's dia. Because the 16" bar wont clear the 18" trunk, fit the bar back into your established cut and complete it on the other side of the tree. The falling sights on your powerhead come in handy for getting the cut to line up exactly with the direction of intended fall.
Then, with a good eye for square, get your saw back into the tree, but this time on a downward angle that will meet exactly with the back of the last cut you made.
Try to visualize Ginger that you are trying to remove a perfectly sculptured watermelon wedge shaped hunk of wood.
It is important that the back of these two cuts meet exactly at 90 degrees to the intended direction of fall. If not, clean it out with the saw so it does.
Now, establish the backcut approx. 2" above the felling knotch just enough to fit in a wedge or two. Then using this cut as a guide, cut "ears" about 2-3" deep on either side of the tree at 0 degrees to the intended direction of fall. Then you complete the backcut by sawing up to the knotch, perfectly square. You can then drive the wedges to lift the tree or simply blast the tree off the stump with the saw if you are certain that the tree is commited to where you want it to lay.
This is the basic mechanics, but it is dangerous and anything can happen, so try to get help . There is nothing wrong with a longer bar, but the shorter ones dont contact the rocks as much.
If you email me your address, I will send you " The Fallers and Buckers Handbook".
Safety First,
Gypo


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## Kevin (Jun 27, 2002)

> Ok, lets dump an 18" stem together as though I was there in the forest with you



John, where are your hands while all this is going on?


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## Art Martin (Jun 27, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
I've been reading the posts on this site recently which seem to welcome you aboard with open arms, and that's good. However, you have to view most of them with tongue-in-cheek.

I have lived in the Sacramento area for 15 years and I don't know of any 60-acre parcels in this county as you describe yours. Maybe you are referring to El Dorado County or Placer County which are adjoining Scaramento County.

In my first career, I was what is referred to as a "West coast faller" in the Fort Bragg/Mendocino county area.We only fell large timber. The smallest Redwood we were allowed to fall had to be at least 6' in diameter at chest height and the Douglas Fir had to be 4' in diameter. When you ask "how to fall a tree," there are many things to consider. 

These include: the topography, wind, lean, size of undercut and really important, Move Your Vehicle out of range, etc. My friends Sawracer and Ruppydoggy also live in the area and probably would fall a few trees in exchange for a few practice logs for their racing saws. Just a thought.

Regards, Art Martin


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2002)

Shut Up Kevin !!!, we dont have that kind of rapoire with Ginger.
John


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## JimL (Jun 27, 2002)

if im clearin, ill just cut from the back of the tree where i want it to fall at say a 45 degree angle down. this is only on trees 8-10" diameter max.


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## treeclimber165 (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JimL _
> *if im clearin, ill just cut from the back of the tree where i want it to fall at say a 45 degree angle down. this is only on trees 8-10" diameter max. *



Sorry, but this is about the MOST DANGEROUS way to attempt felling a tree. By the time you get close to finishing your cut, more of the weight is on the backside of your cut. Unless the tree has an extreme angle in line with the direction you are cutting anyway, this is about the best way to pinch your saw and have the tree fall sideways from where you want it. 
Every few months, you see some little article in the paper of some uninformed homeowner who dumped a tree on his car/house/kid. The cut you described is virtually always the (wrong) cut used in these stories. 
If you want to continue screwing around with chainsaws even you have no clue how to use one, fine. But please don't offer such dangerous, uninformed information as 'advice'.


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## mryb (Jun 28, 2002)

With Gypo around, who needs OSHA?...Rick

Creep on loggin'


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## JimL (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *
> 
> Sorry, but this is about the MOST DANGEROUS way to attempt felling a tree. By the time you get close to finishing your cut, more of the weight is on the backside of your cut. Unless the tree has an extreme angle in line with the direction you are cutting anyway, this is about the best way to pinch your saw and have the tree fall sideways from where you want it.
> ...



I am sorry you don't like the way I do things, been doin it this way for a long time. I won't do it next to a house, just in the open. Cut thousands this way and rarely pinch,


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## Kevin (Jun 28, 2002)

Jim, it`s a matter of control and safety.
Someone could easily say I`ve been driving drunk for years and rarely get pinched by the cops.
I use prescribed and approved felling procedures on trees as small as three and four inches in diameter.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 28, 2002)

Hi there, what JimL has described is known as "stump jumping", and is a recognized means of effectively and speedily bringing down a tree. It is used mainly by tree spacers thinning juvenile stands of conifers. It takes quite a bit of skill and a sharp chain to be fast and productive at it. Softwoods larger than 8" should not be stump jumped because most saws cannot be cut faster than the tree can fall. Example: a West Coast Faller, now deceased thought his 2100CD could cut faster than a 3 ft. cedar could fall with only a back cut. The tree simply barber chaired and drove him into the ground.
This method of falling consists of sawing the tree off the stump on a predetermined upward angle and just as the tree is about to go, and with a slight flick of the wrist the butt end of the tree is flung off the stump backward of its own accord which establishes its direction of fall. Stump jumping is generaly reserved to cutting areas where a lead or face can be established, meaning that the trees are felled in a systematic manner so as not to get hang ups or create a bunch of teepees.
When I worked on the West Coast in imature stands of conifers, I know for a fact that I stump jumped well over 200 acres, possibly 1000,000 stems on steep to flat ground. Once you get good at it, you can have a tree coming off the stump before the last one even hit the ground.
Safety First,
Gyro


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## chainsawworld (Jun 28, 2002)

ginger,
you cannot learn safe tree felling over the net. my class last four days and it is hands-on(lambert will love that) training. you will learn safety,felling, limbing, saw care, well, everthing you need to know. i have looked into many accidents in the woods that left people really messed up or worse. sad part is, these can be avoided. a while back i started a post about safety when a friend of mine got busted up bad. last word is he is still in a coma. BE CAREFUL! marty


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## chainsawworld (Jun 28, 2002)

"stump jumping" also known as "table top" is not a safe practice. open face-bore cutting not only gives you complete controll of the fell but will also hold the stem in place for loping and limbing. marty


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## Harley (Jun 28, 2002)

Check out the safety links on Gypo's webpage.

Gypo's link's 

The Husky site is very informative. I think Marty is right though, the best way to learn is from someone else, in person.

Something I didn't see anybody mention. Examine the tree before you even start your saw. Look for anything that could fall on you, any possible problems with it hanging in other trees, and the condition of the tree itself. Rotten wood doesn't make a good hinge.

Also, check this out.
Graphic  

Later......


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## eyolf (Jun 28, 2002)

GYpo JOhn and others have detailed some of the procedures, and what can happen if not followed. I personally saw a man die in the woods...literally pile-driven into mush because he didn't know what he was doing.

(<shiverrrrr>):angel: 

Take advantage of offers of help, and if Art Martin's friends cant help you out, check around for someone you can hire for a day. Call a reputable saw shop in the nearest town for names and numbers. 

It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that an inexperienced operator can be unsafe in the woods, but one that hasn't got the confidence and security can be hazardous too. Be sure you're safe. It would be better to pay a day's wages to a pro, then be injured or killed.


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## chainsawworld (Jun 28, 2002)

harley,eyewolf,
i did not get into any detail because if only part of the information is applied someone could get real hurt. i have seen people make such mistakes as lean on a smaller tree and the top came out of it and broke a collar bone. when i teach Woods And Chainsaw Safety it is all of that. not just felling and bucking. i teach you how to stay alive in the woods. people also learn how to keep their saw at peak proformance. marty


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## JimL (Jun 28, 2002)

I only stump jump when clearin. I do alot of clearin out fence rows. I cut the trees up bout 3.5 - 4 foot off the ground so the dozer can grab them. No need to stump jump timber logs. good way to loose them.


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## tony marks (Jun 28, 2002)

ginger, get somebody to show u the ropes ,as there is much to learn.
i didnt ,an im only alive thru the grace o god.and i aint kiddin.that was 33 yrs ago
and i still learn something new most times i do a job.


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## crowe (Jun 28, 2002)

Ginger,
I would have to agree with most of the guys who answered this thread and say find somebody to help you or do it for you. I would hate to try and guide you through the steps of cutting via this forum. Cutting is a hands on trade. Good luck and be safe. Wade


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## jokers (Jun 28, 2002)

I have to agree with Gypo about stumpjumping for pre-commercial thinning. Gets the job done. Maybe it should be pointed out this technique should only be used on stems small enough to directionally control with your left hand if necessary,which also suggests only one hand on the saw, the rear handle no less, and on trees having a minimal canopy, to avoid any snags which can rapidly change your plans. I agree with Marty and others that you really don`t have any directional control with this method and barberchair is extremely likely with larger stems. I doubt that we can change JimL's mind about a technique that he is comfortable with and finds to be an effective money maker. Let's just say a prayer for him in advance and try to dissuade others from trying this unless they are intimately familiar with where not to use it . Russ


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## chainsawworld (Jun 28, 2002)

if at any point you have only one hand on a running saw and the brake off it is unsafe. anything can happen. when hunting, does anyone spend the day walking around the woods with a live round in the chamber and the safety off? marty


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## jokers (Jun 28, 2002)

Well..... don`t you? I also find it effective to make pre-emptive strikes on noisy or moving bushes, there might be something in there you know!  Russ


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## chainsawworld (Jun 28, 2002)

jokers,
not any more. i have found hitting a pheasant with a 7mm mag is not easy.marty


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## dbabcock (Jun 28, 2002)

Now this is a thread that I've learned a lot from for sure. As a neophyte woodsman I have cut down many trees, but probably not in the safest or efficient manner (if the two cases can even coexist). Thanks.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 29, 2002)

Hi there, how ya makin out? Did ya get all the pecker poles stump jumped yet?
Theres not a person alive that has used a saw, even Harry the Homeowner that hasnt done his fair share of stump jumping.
We have all cleared out brush and saplings with a saw, regardless of wether it was for fence rowing or simply clearing an escape route before falling a tree. We get rid of these encumberances, not by knotching them in any particular formal manner, but rather simply by blasting them off their root system.
Just to elaborate, this requires skill so that you dont end up wearing the tree as a feature or fixture. If you can visualize cutting down a tree in one fell swoop, than you can see how good you could get at it if you moved up to 8" stems from 1" whips, especially if you have cut over a million this way.
Hank the Finn
Now We're Loggin!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 29, 2002)

Hi there, while I was learning to stump jump, I got slaped in the face so many times, that I thought I was a pervert at a tea party.
Gypo
Bibliography: West Coast tree spacer 1981


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## tony marks (Jun 29, 2002)

good luck. u too ginger
always nice to watch nature at work.
the bears an the bees an the birds all after the same thing.


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## Darin (Jun 30, 2002)

I hope you see that it takes a lot of experience to do this and consider calling a pro out. It may cost a few bucks, but its better than a few fingers. Or possibly a life. At any rate good luck to you.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 1, 2002)

Hi there Ginger,
It's nice to see you back, please disregard alot that was said about the "high ball" ethic of taking down trees. It's a long and dangerous grind to become proficient at falling trees. There are just to many variables and I am not doubting your capabilities or judgement. It is just that I would worry to death if I thought you or anyone else got hurt with a saw or a tree because I offered up armchair information.
If you cant restrain yourself, please be aware of your surroundings at all times and let an escape route to a bigger tree be your defence. You must always be looking up for dead limbs that may rain down or trees that may kick back off the stump, especially on steep slopes. Dont fall trees up steep slopes if you can avoid it, the butts kick back downhill toward the operator and can pin you against trees or debris. Learn to run your pre-established escape route when the tree is commited to it's direction of fall, as material can be flung back at you.
Once you become accomplished , tree falling is a gentle dance that gives one pleasure, but dont work while tired or emotionaly upset about something. This and inexperience are the biggest killers.
Hope this helps,
John


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## Tony Snyder (Jul 1, 2002)

You said you were auditioning dancers. Tell me how to dance, and I'll tell you how to drop a tree. But dancing isn't usually dangerous, falling trees is.

I do not intend to offend you, but my statement makes the point about the difficulty of giving you good written instruction.

I just don't want you to get hurt.

Gypo and others make the same point in different words.


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## nelly (Jul 1, 2002)

I can see that you are going to try this. Just take your time and find out as much information as you can. I am a beginner that had no one to "show me the ropes". I read a lot here and other sites. I cut ocassionally for firewood. Here is a site that I found useful.

http://www.forestapps.com/tips/tips.htm

It sounds like you have gotten used to your saw by cutting small stuff. Good approach. Most guys would have "gone for the monster" right away. It's great that you asked the question.


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## treeclimber165 (Jul 1, 2002)

*20" bar on 026*

A 20" bar is totally acceptable for an 026. We have 2 where I work, the ground saw 026 has a 20" bar and the one I use for big cuts when climbing has an 18".


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## Art Martin (Jul 2, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
I would just like to mention that there will be a logging contest being held on Saturday, July 6th, in Brownsville, that is just a short drive from Strawberry Valley. It starts in the morning and goes on all day. There you could see experts handling saws and even falling a "tree" as well as many different chain sawing events, axe throwing and crosscut sawing. It is a good place to meet and talk with Sawracer, Rupedoggy and maybe Ken Dunn and maybe some world champions.


Art Martin


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 2, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
I hope you get the chance to attend the Brownsville event.
Art Martin is genuine in his offer to introduce you to some of the finest in the logging and saw racing world.
Art and the fine people he has mentioned, will treat you as though you were a daughter.
I am am sure you will have fun there, and these ole timers will be able to teach anyone more in 20 minutes than we could learn in 20 years on our own.
Gypo


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## Dennis (Jul 3, 2002)

Art...if I didnt know any better I would think you are hitting on my girl Ginger.... she obviously lives closer to you and could use some filing lessons...and I cant think of a better guy...so if I dont make it down there this year...take care of her for me...


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## Art Martin (Jul 3, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
I was really suprised when I read your reply that you were going to be attending a family meeting at the Finnish Hall in Rockland. That makes me wonder if you are Finnish? It just so happens that both my wife and I are Finnish and she was born in Finland. In fact, she's the President of the Finlandia Club of Sacramento Valley. We know Roy Ruhkala as he is a member of the Club. His family started the Ruhkala Garnite Company in Rockland. Is he related to you?
We look forward to meeting you.
Art Martin


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## dbabcock (Jul 3, 2002)

This is Dennis...


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## Art Martin (Jul 3, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
Nice to hear that you are also Finnish. Especially nice to hear that you are a vegetarian also. My wife was born in Pori, which is about 70km from Tampere. Do you speak Finnish? We didn't know anything about the Rocklin Jubilee event. I'll talk to Ken about helping you with your saw and I could help with the filing and tree felling. The vegetarian fare would be a good trade-off for me, but I think that Ken still eats dead animals. (Yuk)
Since you are athletic, perhaps you might consider getting into the Jack and Jill competition at some time in the future. (That is a man and woman crosscutting.)
Best Regards, 
Art Martin


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## jokers (Jul 3, 2002)

*Where`s Otto*

Shouldn`t he be involved in this Finlander discourse. I know he could add some color. Russ


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 4, 2002)

Hey Russ, I heard that Otto and Walt teamed up and became chainsaw carneys, attending fairs and logging shows throughout North America. Otto demonstrates how to ring the bell three times while Walt collects the money and gives out the prizes.
But not really sure of their whereabouts as of late, cause they havent posted in a while.
John


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## mryb (Jul 4, 2002)

I heard through the grape vine that they are spending all their time designing a new chain saw called the Waltotto...Rick

Creep on loggin'


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## tony marks (Jul 5, 2002)

not to worry ginger. them little thingees get me now an agin to. that particular ones called a sprocket. i think.
by the way next time that happens ,just turn u saw upside dn. cut better that way anyway.just kiddin ginger,hope u had a great 4th.


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## Art Martin (Jul 5, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
I located a top-notch timberfaller who lives in Strawberry Valley. He is a real mountain man and will be at the Brownsville logging show. He does falling and bucking for a living and has wedges and hydralic jacks, etc. By the way, don't bother to assassinate any chicken just for Ken, we can pick up something along the way for him, like a road kill. 
And about the picture of Dennis, John said he doesn't even look that good in real life, whew.
Art


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 5, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
Heres a great chance for you to meet up with a real West Coast timber faller. He may be able to show you how to make some good money by taking some financialy mature timber off your property.
What size and species are your biggest trees? Has it been logged heavily in the past? Would you say there is any first growth trees there or would it be second growth?
Sorry about all the nosey questions Ginger, but I am just trying to give you some insight as to the value of your stand and the treatment I think it may require to get the most value and still keep your forest intact for future harvests. We dont want it to look like a bad haircut. lol
Anyway, I would take Art up on his offer so his friend may do a peliminary cruise just to access what you have there before you decide to cut.
John


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## dbabcock (Jul 5, 2002)

>>P.S. Art, please dont be to hard on Ken for liking the odd >>cadaverous meal, someone has to keep the cattle industy >>going! Just kidding,lol.

Ken's into eating dead human bodies now? I certainly wouldn't blame him for being carniverous, but being cadaverous makes me invision him stealing cadavers out of the morgue, carving them up with a piped 084, then eating them. Way to go, KD!


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## tony marks (Jul 6, 2002)

u right about being careful w your timber.
honest . some is ,some aint.
no offence intended ,just my take on it.
in any case u playin there game ,an they know how to play better than u.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 7, 2002)

Hi Ginger, it is hard to estimate the value of timber on the stump, however you can be pretty close if you are aware of the markets and the quality of your trees.
The highest value wood comes from the butt log, meaning the first ten footer off the stump. This is where the highest grade is found. Logging in California is sometimes more involved than logging the Great Lakes, however hardwood is generally more valuable than softwood volume wise. 
From your description of your trees, I would say there are some you have in the 12 ft. circumferance class. A conservitive estimate of their value may be 2 - 4 thousand $ per tree if sold to the right market. The trick is to eliminate the middle man who will literally hammer your forest and rob you blind.
Try to get a government forester who will make a forestry plan for you, but keep in mind they have no power of enforcement against those that want to rape and pillage.
If you have say 60 trees you think can go then get bids and watch them like hawks, cause most cutting is subcontracted out to those that get payed according to volume produced and dont really give a ????.
Sorry about the jaded view, but I am giving you the worse case senario. The right American markets pay more than any other market for good timber, then Asia, so dont sell your trees to anybody that says it is just another load of saw timber. Most sawmills and loggers will rob you blind if given the chance. Just leave it on the stump till you find the right forester, logger and markets. Forestry and logging is not cut and dried by any means and I dont wish to make loggers out to be bandits, its just that most of them are dependant pawns to bigger corperations.
Most loggers would rip my head off as I mouth these words, but this is what forestry has to come to.
The good news is that there is still alot of timber out there and I just want to put my 2 cents in there about what I have learned.
After all, it was the Finnish that taught me in the beginning about saws and forest management.

John


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## John Lambert (Jul 7, 2002)

Good-Bye, Little Cabin 

O dear little cabin, I've loved you so long,
And now I must bid you good-bye!
I've filled you with laughter, I've thrilled you with song,
And sometimes I've wished I could cry.
Your walls they have witnessed a weariful fight,
And rung to a won Waterloo:
But oh, in my triumph I'm dreary to-night --
Good-bye, little cabin, to you!

Your roof is bewhiskered, your floor is a-slant,
Your walls seem to sag and to swing;
I'm trying to find just your faults, but I can't --
You poor, tired, heart-broken old thing!
I've seen when you've been the best friend that I had,
Your light like a gem on the snow;
You're sort of a part of me -- Gee! but I'm sad;
I hate, little cabin, to go.

Below your cracked window red raspberries climb;
A hornet's nest hangs from a beam;
Your rafters are scribbled with adage and rhyme,
And dimmed with tobacco and dream.
"Each day has its laugh", and "Don't worry, just work".
Such mottoes reproachfully shine.
Old calendars dangle -- what memories lurk
About you, dear cabin of mine!

I hear the world-call and the clang of the fight;
I hear the hoarse cry of my kind;
Yet well do I know, as I quit you to-night,
It's Youth that I'm leaving behind.
And often I'll think of you, empty and black,
Moose antlers nailed over your door:
Oh, if I should perish my ghost will come back
To dwell in you, cabin, once more!

How cold, still and lonely, how weary you seem!
A last wistful look and I'll go.
Oh, will you remember the lad with his dream!
The lad that you comforted so.
The shadows enfold you, it's drawing to-night;
The evening star needles the sky:
And huh! but it's stinging and stabbing my sight --
God bless you, old cabin, good-bye!


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## Art Martin (Jul 7, 2002)

While attending the Brownsville logging show last Saturday, the beetle infestation at the fair grounds and the adjoining properties was very evident. There was dead and dying trees all over. It seems to be spreading rapidly and will destroy that entire area unless something is done soon to remove those 
infected trees. According to the announcer, who addressed the problem, it seems to be the environmentalists and the forestry service that are preventing the removal of the dead trees. Although quite a few of the trees on the fair grounds property had been remove since last year, more has to be done in that area. 
Anyone with property that shows signs of the beetle infestation should act right away.
Art


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## rbtree (Jul 8, 2002)

John and Ginger,

Unless those trees are well over 24 inches across inside the bark at 40 feet off the ground, there is likely nothing worth over $1000 per tree. The export market has gone to pot, and $625 per 1000 board feet is tops around here. Same in Ca, I've heard.

Now if you have some that are clear (no knots) for 60-80 feet, and just a little bigger, you could have a 3000-4000 board foot tree. Then the value goes up quickly.

John, I'm pretty busy this week, so I won't see you til Clearwater late Fri nite or Sat a.m. But I do have some wood to split and stack, come on by. I'm only 1 minute off the freeway. And some 100 foot firs to fell in 80 foot back yards, should be right up your alley....Didja bring the balloon?


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## Dennis (Jul 9, 2002)

Ginger...that picture of me was taken at one of my weaker moments before I started using the bowflex...i am now a little bigger...

John will do you right...just dont feed him any alcohol...he has a tendancy to want to wear fishnet and put on makeup...but he is really harmless..

Here is John at his last meeting....


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jul 9, 2002)

Mmmmmmm; Wow Miss Ginger (the movie star not proffesor or mary ann) from Strawberry Hill .....

i'm a lil guy and look at taking out one of the species of gi-ants of our world, like martial arts, kinda using size and leverage against something larger than you, so that u usher its superior size and strength to beat itself. So you choose your targets to experience.

Like, taking a knotch to the felling direction out, is like taking the chock out from under a tire, so force can flow smoothly and not build up. For a 40' lever with 1000# of head weight (tree)can put 20 tons of force that builds up (without speed factored in)and can have deadly levels of force exploding for disastourous results possible (splitting, barberchairing), happening right were you stand by tree with power saw! No-No bad! So by notching and taking that 'chock' out of the way, you are allowing the tree to fall, not tempting it not too, or pitting it against itself, by giving it this relief of that knotch.

The lines of this notch must meet precisely, not cross to be safest. For if they don't, you have a knotch within a knotch, so the inner knotch will command, and it is equivalent to just making a slash on the front of the tree (kerf cut) which can also be dangerous. So make it right, so it can werk right. 
the knotch's mouth spread dictates the amount of travel before the 2 faces of the knotch are pitted against each other with all present force, so having this so early with a kerf or inner knotch is very dangerous. Cutting the knotch almost to the center, leaves the machine of the hinge operating through the widest strip of wood in the center, maximizing its potential as it faces its awesome job of moving all the weight and leverage to the ground safely.

Then, leave wood for a hinge as you backcut through to knotch, this is essential for safety and control of speed and direction, 2 very important factors. Once the hinge is detatched, u have no control over speed or direction. If you werk this way, the knotch will direct that the fall will be on its axis, so don't walk in front or behind the knotches face. Keep your backcut level, and higher than bottom face in conventional "L" knotch (2" recomended).

To get the tree to fall in the direction of choice, you have to power it into that face of the knotch. If it is leaning that way, (both the tree and the ballance of the heads weight) gravity will do the werk for you. If not you must adjust and usher the tree into that face by pulling at high leverage into the face, lifting with wedge from rear so that the front tips into the facecut, or adjsuting holding wood of hinge for some leans of the head's weight.

All this is raw machinery, so you walk away from questionable wood and roots, that could fail as you need them. i don't knotch in deteriated wood, 'cat faced' (disturbed/marbled grain), where limbs were etc. You always think of loose wood falling on you and where a brain bucket. You make sure way is clear for tree to fall,a nd head not brush/hang on anything on the way down, impeding the flow of force and calling on it rear its ugly side as it fights itself. 

These as the others are jsut a few things of a facsinating and hazardous science. Of course there are all the safety items of chainsaw handling, personally i don't touch anything without a working chain brake. May i suggest practi-call experience with someone and checking out Dent's "Pro Timber Falling-a Proceduarl Approach" for more; it has long been a cheaper, standard book i think than some others over time, and its reviews go like:

"If the people involved in the manufacturing of logs would follow the procedures and techniques explained in this book, there would not only be less accidents, we would also utilize more wood from each harvest area. Once the Faller and Bucker lay the saw to a tree, it is like Humpty Dumpty, all the Foresters in the Northwest can't put it back together again, and theirein lies the need to do it right the first and only time around."

Crown Zellerbach

This book has been used for many years to train firewood cutters, loggers and personnel of various federal organizations (U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Bonneville Power Administration, Western Area Power Administration, National Park Service, U.S. Department of Labor (OSHA) and numerous state departments of forestry. Professional Timber Falling is the most comprehensive text of its kind available. It covers the full range of topics from bars and chains to the physical forces affecting the tree. An in-depth analysis of such topics as, the holding wood, backcut, undercut, stump shot, side boring, notching, jacking are thoroughly discussed and vividly illustrated. Quite simply, Professional Timber Falling teaches all chain saw users how to make it home safely every night through the use of safe, efficient and proper work practices."

Some of this is tough superman werk, but some a lil'MF'er with a saw can look at and form a strategy to. It rawly is so mechanical in its essence, so i have to talk that way even to a 'girl'. So i guess a lady can use these martial arts confidentally and walk out in the field and adjust things to allow them to happen to her liking without worrying about brute force if she is smart. 

Kinda like a way,
in other,
Martial Settings;
She definitely can win!
Just be smart and don't let the big 
guy fall on ya, 
when ya trip'em up!

It is all exactly the same, 
but diffrent!


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## Art Martin (Jul 10, 2002)

I'm glad that I didn't read this disertation, formal discourse, doctorial thesis or whatever you would call it from The Tree Spyder before I became a West Coast Faller. If I had, I probably would just have went on to become a Captain in the fire department right away, I only needed 6 years of college for that. Timberfalling sounds too confusing.
Art Martin


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## Kevin (Jul 10, 2002)

It`s ok Art, you just need a little more meat in your diet.  

TreeSpyder,
What does Dent's "Pro Timber Falling say about the open face notch... hinge or not to hinge?


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## WRW (Jul 10, 2002)

Six years to learn how to hump a stiff hose...


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## rbtree (Jul 10, 2002)

Mornin', Art,

TS does have a way with words, eh?!

While he does ramble a lot, he is pretty darn knowledgable...

Gotta get some chain (s) from ya. With all my tricked saws, from littlest to biggest stock, I feel the need for speed.....

Too bad I didn't get some before the revival....but I still should be able to at lest beat gyro, the way he rocks out chain....


re Dent, arbormaster, etc and the open face,

When felling log lengths from heights, I often use a very closed face, to make the piece jump off the cut and rotate less, to allow it to land in the desired positon. I only use this method with vertical, straight grained conifers, ,no knot within 6 inches.

When I told this to Ken Palmer, he looked at me funny, and said I had a death wish. I diasagreed, you just gotta be wise....

Felling huge old growth, a small face suffices, the tree is well committed after only a few degrees of fall. Never done anything huge, just seen lots of pics, beranek's etc.


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## chainsawworld (Jul 10, 2002)

humblot,conventional and v-notch are no longer the safest way to fell trees. all these methods do is start the tree in the direction you want, once the notch has closed, the hinge breaks and controll is lost. open face bore cutting is the safest way to fell trees. the hinge is used not only for complete controll of the fell all the way to the ground it will hold the tree in place for loping and de-limbing. the tree can not move untill the hinge is cut. marty


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## Dennis (Jul 10, 2002)

Ginger, you can read all you want about falling trees but nothing matches actually doing it...get someone out there and get them to give you some "hands on experience"..I would be more than willing  I may be in that area in September...

Maybe Art, Ken and myself can give you a hand...and I am sure that creep Gypo will show up...


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## chainsawworld (Jul 10, 2002)

den,
john was saying that if you are willing to go help ginger he will keep an eye on your place while you are gone. something about a new book keeper you have. marty


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## Art Martin (Jul 10, 2002)

WRW,
When you make a statement like "six years to hump a stiff hose", it's too bad you apparently have such a low regard and disrespect for the most revered and dangerous profession in the country. 
Art Martin


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## deadtrees (Jul 10, 2002)

Chainsawworld; Tell us what an open faced bore cut is and how it works


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## Art Martin (Jul 10, 2002)

Kevin,
Would eating more meat make me a better timberfaller? When you can fall and buck a half million board feet of timber, Spalding scale, in 4 days, (documented record at the Union Lumber Co.) then I'll start eating meat.
Art Martin


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## WRW (Jul 10, 2002)

Art Martin,

After 18 years of that "most revered and dangerous profession" I HAVE developed a sense of humor.


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## Art Martin (Jul 10, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
You made a wise decision not to come to Brownsville if you were a little tipsy, and besides, family is more important. Ken Dunn didn't make it either because of family commitments.
Yes, Martin Hedrick was my arch rival during my competing days. He was Pacific Coast Champion 5 times and won the power saw championship in 1964 at Hayward, Wisconsin. He used a 2 cylinder Mercury chainsaw which weighed 125 pounds. When he got back to California, I beat his time with a West Bend 10.2 cu. in. chainsaw that I introduced at the logging show in Oroville. I did go on to win 5 California State championships. Martin Hedrick passed away earlier this year.
The 6' 4" lumberjack that you were curious about probably does smell like wood chips and probably hangs out at those "honky tonk" establishments that you mentioned. If he dances, I hope he takes off his caulked boots. He is a great guy. If you need to get a hold of him about your trees, contact me about his number 
at [email protected] 
Art Martin


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## Kevin (Jul 10, 2002)

Art, that was in reference to


> Timberfalling sounds too confusing


 but I was just kidding.
As for the rest of it... _That don`t impress me much._
Shania Twain


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jul 11, 2002)

Both my shrinx thank ya for that Rb, next time i sneak a weak-end pass........ Perhaps overboard on bragging how i Ram-Bulls though; perhaps that takes a real heavy-.........wait like JP weighving in @2700+, i can't even get most posts per pound category with him around anymore!

Don't worry Miss Ginger, Skip-her Sanborn (how can u tell if he is abbreviating or miss-spilling?)did put the lil'buddy routine on me re-sent-ly, following my Maynard G. stuff, much to my big-isle-meant for my opening tune of L-8. 

Sew eye see de feet as my mother's sun to Apollo-gize roy-ally! And may i say a very nice amount of reads and writes on this topic you wrought!

Hmmmmmm, Dent's book from 70's(as well as any other document of worthiness and safety i think) says to hinge. He briefly covers side boring behind hinge, and then back (nosing in and reverse backcutting) so you are moving away from the action of the machinery of the hinge as it goes to release (rather than towards the incredible force of the fall while completing the backcut)for strong head leaners and the like. But, i had to pick up open face cuts from an olde Stihl/ Eric Sorensen tape, then fold them in for i did not find them hear. i'd extend a caution on slow or hung drops, it can be not only be fantastic hinging at work but immense seizing/pressurizzing in the face of the hinge(dirty/blocked folding area in closing hinge), and every species in its own class of strength and flex-ability of fibre in this extreme application. i have played and expressed slow drops in the truck pull post (which i must honestly caution as thin territory to stroll); but didn't want to express/inspire that extreme of the scenario for caution's sake.

In Dent's book the hinging, is the real magic , in fact to me; his whole book is about hinging + the rest is background around hinging. He very, very meticulously (wow, yes that is me saying that!)goes over many diagramed views of hinging situations that it has taken me years to digest from this small book, with some more diagrams still twirling in my head still. He shows these techniques applied to some of the most massive of trees, showing how to read hinges forensically after the drop to gain immediate feedback to feed into the next daze less-on. How to look at trees on 2 plains-Trunk lean and head lean. 

He teaches to fold the trunk into the face exactly gunned towards the horizontal vortex of the hinge, and adjust the holding fibre across said hinge to compensate on the opposite side of head lean/ or on same side for disturbance on path of fall. And never to cut threw the hinge, to use it's usherring machinery instead. Never to cross the face cuts (except purposefully that he goes into on dutchmans), for the inner seperation or kerf becomes the commnading hinge and is brief, which counters the whole purpose.

Some words and concepts of empowermeant from his book(the ancients beleived that if u could correctly name and call up a devil in someone/thing u could command it), that increased my having to take responsibility of every tree action from him are :"Mechanical Analysis" (those 2 words in his book changed my whole outlook on treewerk), "Compression and Tension" in wood you are cutting, and "Causation" of outcomes. If the gravity or compression powered machine i built to usher movement/release goes wrong, i gave it the wrong mechanical instruction set or something failed strength/flexabilty wise (that i probably should've seen). Either way i glean lessons from it every time after i do it, if it goes right or not.

i've all ways felt that i learn stuf more and deeper, if i group the like factors/denominators to-gather and study them as a whole, allowing their similarities and diffrences in the same realm teach and reveal more concepts in comparisons, textures and contrasts of like things. In his book Dent describes with more diagrams later bucking torqued/ sprung limbs from felled trees; these are the same exact strategies for the felling earlier in his book! Knotching to releive compression, cutting to relive tension, flowing in a direction to release immense force with a strategy in wood fibre using all of this. So i took these 2 matching scenarios, commanded by the same common denominators. Then i drew a line betweeen them on the graph of all; then sighted down that line, to the next rhyming point of use, which for me was hinging rigs in the air.

So, everytime i either drop, rig or buck wood, i'm anal-yzing , and practicing all 3(at least) with each movement. Because i can identify their commonness, in their masquerade of forms around me to begin with. This strategy is especially useful for all the leverage/mechanical advantage discussions, for each thing of leverage, wedges, pulleys, 2/1inDDRT, 10 speeds, cars, screws, et al, for they are all exactly the same (yes-but diffrent); so all u gotta do is look inside and see the common element to recognize it in all, thereby just learning it can allow you to command so many more things across the bored, and practice and expand them in groups geometrically instead of singlely, also making them more familiar as you recognize they fill around you to view all the time. So i guess i go on so no one could ever say i short changed them, as i putt my 2cents in; but also to reveal the symphony of events i see that must be reckoned with and orchestrated as compounding, denominating components as tolerances become narrower, sighting out self working / positive paths by stacking more on my side than stands against me. Seeking to learn and compare as i go. 

So with this view i write and try to extend that more comprehensive and really more efficient and defining information package, in something i am truly fascinated by. For it is the best i ab-soul-utely have to offer!


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## mryb (Jul 11, 2002)

I want some of whatz hez on....Rick

Creep on loggin'


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## Rotax Robert (Jul 12, 2002)

So....Gypo stops by and thinks he can just start faling timber with-out any safety rules,,,,,, I told him that in order to fall the BIG western timber, thaat he would have to first read the book on proper falling techniques.... He is stihl reading


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## Kevin (Jul 12, 2002)

Who dressed him?


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## rbtree (Jul 12, 2002)

What;s that funny expression on his face, I wonder.

Maybe its cause Dent didnt write in that Norther
n Ontario bushman lingo.....


.or maybe cause gyro's big bro, see below, never taught him English.


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## rbtree (Jul 12, 2002)

or his dad:


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## Dennis (Jul 12, 2002)

I didnt know that book was printed with pictures??? Anyway...things are coming together here Ginger....It would have been nice if you could have made it up to Clearwater and met all the guys here...


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## Art Martin (Jul 14, 2002)

Hi Ginger,
Boy, did you surprize me. I almost filed a tooth wrong. I would have never guessed that you would go clear up to Clearwater to see a logging show. 
I have been up in the Kamloops area fishing, years ago. It is truly beautiful.
At least now Rupedoggy (Mike) knows that you really do exist. He didn't seem to believe me when I told him that you must be real because no one else would know things like Tampere, the Finnish hall, the rock quarry, etc. Maybe Ken will believe it too, because he also had doubts. Don't forget to cheer for the local boys, Mike and Jon. 
Mina odotan vastausta nyt.
Art


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## mryb (Jul 14, 2002)

Well then, make the rest of us believer's. Post a pic Gin.....Rick

Creep on loggin'


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## Harley (Jul 14, 2002)

Robert; 

Put a hat on that boy!

The glare is unacceptable.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 22, 2002)

Hi there, was just checking into the terminology and nonemclature of proper tree falling before I head out west to fell the mighty Fir.


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

So Ging, 

Did those mighty loggers happen to show ya th' plunge cut, perchance?

If not, I'd sure be willin' to give 'er a go....


..gotta go lube some bar noses...

..crud, the tube is empty...

gyro, can youse help me fill it?


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

Would you like to see my other camera, ging?

it has a couple long lenses....


.....and thick...

not only that, they are detachable...


.no batteries tho.


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

Uh oh.....

.please forgive me, Ging

Here's some pics from the Mountain Loop highway, in the North Cascades. North face of 6500 foot Whitehorse Mt in the background. I was up to bid on the removal of 7 large maple and a cottonwood, house and landscape all around...


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

'nother:


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

Just call me the flower fella....

..my sensitive side.....


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

*Huge dying chestnut*

This may be the national champion american chestnut. Sadly, it is almost dead. It looks different from the 1993 photo I have of the champ, which is also in Cicero, same as this tree. It may be the same one. Anyhow, the champ was 19'7" in circ., 106 feet tall, and 101 feet wide, when last measured in '93. Another one, in Carson, has 6 less AFA points, as it is only 87 feet tall. But it is 109 feet wide and 20'7" in circ.


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

Thank you, but my favorite (besides the one of you and Miss Manitoba) is the one with the smoke still swirling after Rotax fired the Predator up at the dinner that I missed. Well, then there was the rodeo ride that Doug took on the bar!! That pic will be remembered!!

Bedtime,

gotta go kill some more trees manana....


the ADHD kid


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## rbtree (Jul 22, 2002)

Yeppers, it is.

i'm thinking of renting a big Canon, like Doug's, for the Int'l Tree Climbing Champ'ships, this weekend in Seattle. But the G2 isnt bad, and i'm learning how to use it, plus use a full size flash on it. It's tough to shoot in shadowed tree canopies, so a flash should help. And it does video, of barely saleable quality. Want to burn a CD for each competitor that wants to buy one.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 1, 2003)

Hi Roger, did you ever try any square chain yet? Are you still cutting summerwood?
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2010)

Let's just say a prayer for him in advance and try to dissuade others from trying this unless they are intimately familiar with where not to use it . Russ
Lol Russ, I hope Jim is still alive and kickin'. Jim?
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2010)

chainsawworld said:


> "stump jumping" also known as "table top" is not a safe practice. open face-bore cutting not only gives you complete controll of the fell but will also hold the stem in place for loping and limbing. marty



Marty, you may have something here, but you'll be all day in the bush with not much shown for your effort.
Gypo


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## rbtree (Jan 19, 2010)

Hey, where's Ginger...??

I want Ginger!!

I need Ginger..

I heard she goes well with sushi...


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2010)

Hi Roger, I liked Ginger too, but alas, I don't have her username. Art really loved her as can be seen. Should I go back to my blow up doll?
John


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## rbtree (Jan 19, 2010)

LOL...

What else is there in da Yukon?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2010)

rbtree said:


> LOL...
> 
> What else is there in da Yukon?



Not a hole lot RB, just alot of crazy women wanting a northern experience.
John


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## Darin (Jan 19, 2010)

Please stop digging up these OLD threads. 
Thanks,
Darin


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2010)

Darin said:


> Please stop digging up these OLD threads.
> Thanks,
> Darin


 Sorry Darin, I just wanted to show how far we have come. lol
John


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## rbtree (Jan 19, 2010)

Darin said:


> Please stop digging up these OLD threads.
> Thanks,
> Darin



Why Darin? It's fun...though I wasn't the culprit.......That wuz Llamabert....

He's cool, I'm cool, you're cool.....

Truce?


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## Jacob J. (Jan 20, 2010)

Darin said:


> Please stop digging up these OLD threads.
> Thanks,
> Darin



Old farts digging up old threads?


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## rbtree (Jan 20, 2010)

Watch it , youngster!!


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## 056 kid (Jan 20, 2010)

Darin said:


> Please stop digging up these OLD threads.
> Thanks,
> Darin



Are you serious?








Ja Herr! all hail zu diesem Furor!!

Verbeugung vor der Furor, denn er ist unser Kapitän, unser Meister. .:greenchainsaw:


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## Darin (Jan 20, 2010)

Whatever floats your boat I guess. If the majority likes it, then fine. If not, then no. (this doesn't work on all situations) I think it's annoying but I am not the one who makes the site what it is. You guys do. It seems the response is pretty overwhelming that I loose this one.


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## gwiley (Jan 20, 2010)

Some of these "old" threads are new to those of us that joined after their heyday. The words are just as fresh as they were when they were first written.

Thanks for hosting a wonderfully useful resource here.


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## Darin (Jan 21, 2010)

You bet!!! You are welcome!!


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## GASoline71 (Jan 21, 2010)

056 kid said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again... your lack of respect comes shining through... 

Gary


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