# Outdoor wood stoves



## django

Any of y'all have an outside woodstove? Also known as a wood fired boiler even though they dont boil. I am considering buying or building one and would like some pros/cons.
Thanx.


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## UrbanEarth

I don't have one yet, but the ones that Central Boiler make seem to be very well thought out. When I get my own acreage, I will be buying one.

www.centralboiler.com

Alan


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## John Paul Sanborn

I have an aquaintance who has one. He burns anything in it and loads it with a loader. Big hunks of willow. Youll have all your buddies dumping wood at your place and telling them thast your gas bill was 20 bucks last month. Dryer and water heater.


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## jokers

I have a Heatmor outdoor boiler that I have been using for 5 yrs. now. When I laid down my cash, which is a sizeable amount for any of these, I had narrowed my choices to Heatmor and Central Boiler aka, Classic. I`ll tell you the reasons why I chose Heatmor over Classic and then the hard part, spending the money, is up to you. Heatmors are all stainless and built in unitized assemblys using components available at just about any HVAC supply house . For example the blower for induction is a Dayton part # available from Grainger`s, shipped to your house. The expansion bladder is an implement inner tube. The aquastats are off the shelf items. Just about any boiler anode will work. And you don`t need to add chemicals to the ash or the water to keep your warranty in effect. If you do ever have a loss of integrity(it leaks), the Heatmor is field serviceable by the dealer without voiding the warranty, and the major components can be removed in the field without use of a crane or special tools if they need major repairs or replacement. The Classic gets loaded on a flatbed at your expense, and there is an $800 transportation fee back to the plant where they determine if it is a legit warranty claim. The Classic has an electric damper mechanism that has to be ordered through an authorized dealer when it fails, no sweat as long as the dealer stayed in business right. Creosote buildup is also a problem for wood fired boilers if they don`t have forced induction. With the relatively cool interface between the water jacket and fire box, you can get huge accumulations of creosote which hampers heat transfer to the water. I `ve seen this on a couple of Classics I looked at before buying the Heatmor. You must also add a chemical to the ashes to neutralize them so they don`t corrode the ash pan, there are no grates which also prevents burning coal. You must also use Central Boiler`s water additive to maintain your warranty. The Classic is open to atmosphere so you have continual water loss, Heatmor uses a simple ball in the vent that is weighted so that it lifts at between 2 and 3 lbs. so it virtually eliminates water loss and it is still non-pressurized. The Heatmor has an auger system for cleanout meaning you can clean it with a good fire going. This makes scheduling cleanout alot easier. The Classic has to burn down, and then you push the embers to the side and scoop out the ash. The Heatmor warranty is double what the Classic warranty is also. I do believe that the Classics are a little more efficient due to the foam insulation they use versus fiberglass on the Heatmor. Heatmor claims to use fiberglass for field servicability, but when I called the parent company, I was told that I could use whatever type insulation I wanted with no effect on the warranty. Heatmor also has an over/under draft combustion which works very well compared to the over draft system of Classic and many others on the market. If any one has any questions please contact me. I do not sell any of these although I did at one time. When it`s all said and done, it was money well spent, but next time I will build my own. Oh yeah, skip all the fancy pipe insulation they try to sell you at exhorbitant prices. I`ve seen alot of different installations, and the best ones used PEX pipe inside coiled non- perforated drain pipe, on saddles to keep it from the edges. Seal the ends with canned foam and bury it below the frost line. Russ


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## jokers

*Water Loss*

I forgot to tell you why continual water loss is more than just a PITA. Adding fresh water all the time adds more corrosion products. It also means evaporative loss of those fancy chemicals you have to put in, and of course, lost Btus out the vent. Russ


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## django

Thanks Russ, I have more questions to ask later.
Steve


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## django

Ok Russ, (and anyone else who has one of these) here goes.
My bro in law has had a heatmor for a few weeks and it seems like a nice unit although as you have eluded to, very$$$ around $6000 installed. I have looked at virtually every one of these on the market (around 15 or so) and the only MAJOR difference I see is whether you buy a round one or a square one. Effiency is somewhat dubious because of the fuel involved. I have a fairly large farmhouse ( 4500 sq.ft. incl, basement) and all the dealers I have talked to want me to buy a very large unit meaning big time $$$,. My questions are: How many sq. ft. are you heating? What model is your stove? Do you heat your house water with it? What dont you like about it? How far away from your house is it? Do you have forced air? Did you insulate your pipes at all? Any problems with air in the lines? If I get one of these I will build it myself as I have access to all the equipment to do it and save some serious cash. Check out www.deb-design.com. I bought some plans from this guy and they seem pretty good. Thank you for your previous response and thanks in advance for any info you can give.
Steve


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## django

If that link didnt work, try http://deb-design.com
Steve


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## UrbanEarth

Russ, does Heatmor have a website?

Alan


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## django

www.heatmor.com
Steve


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## jokers

Hi Steve, I have the 200 model from Heatmor and I`m heating about 4800 sqft. Three above ground levels and a finished walk out basement. Mine is about 155' from my house and interfaces directly with a propane fired boiler in the basement of my home. By directly I mean that there is no auxiliary heat exchanger, I`ve tapped an input and return line into the return header of the gas boiler and placed an isolation valve between them for winter when I don`t want to burn gas. I heat my domestic hot water with a 42 gal. Amtrol tank as another zone off the boiler and it works very well. I don`t think you could run it out of hot water. I also use the gas boiler for domestic hot in the summer, this keeps the cast iron heat exchanger in the boiler dry and I don`t have to fool with the Heatmor. I use a seperate Taco 012 high velocity circulating pump, in the supply line from the 200, run off a relay powered by the boiler control, and I installed a switch to de-energize the single boiler circulator on the gas boiler and let it freewheel during the heating season. The 012 is more pump than I need, I had to install throttled bypass valves in two zones to eliminate waterhammer. The worst thing about my boiler is the backdraft you get sometimes when you open the door, especially if a burn cycle recently ended. The new Heatmors have an interlocked damper to the firebox that opens when you open the outer door, conceivably eliminating that oxygen starved condition. It`s a very simple affair with a rod and a flap, looks like it would work on any of them. These boilers do not burn nearly as long as the manufacturers would like you to think. When it gets down to -20 or -30, a FULL charge of wood only lasts about 13 hours. When I say full, I mean almost couldn`t get a toothpick in there. It`s all seasoned hardwood, alot of cherry which isn`t the best in terms of heat quality but it`s good. Burning unseasoned wood will give you a noticeable decrease in burn time per loading. It is very windy where I am, right off Lake Ontario on the southeast end. I did insulate my pipes which are buried at 4'. I used closed cell pipe insulation because that`s what the dealer I bought from had used for years when he sold Taylors. In all but the coldest times of the year, I have green patches over the pipe into my house. mmmm? I run my Heatmor at 165 degrees indicated and it shows 140 degrees on the thermometer on the gas boiler. These aren`t lab quality thermometers but I`ll bet that they are close enough. I have plenty of baseboard in the house so this temp is adequate and it gives me a longer burn time. I do like the Heatmor because you are only trying to keep 150 gallons at temp versus twice that in a comparable Classic. I would rather have the energy in the wood than in the water. Heat transfer, ie:heat loss is dependent on temperature differential betweeen the heated water in this case and the outside air, and the temperature of the water is a measure of the BTU content, so more gallons means more BTUs to lose. I have never had a problem with air in the lines, I have what is known as an air scoop with an auto vent installed and it works very well. They are only about $50 if my memory serves me. As far as building one yourself, I`d say go for it as long as you go non-pressurized. I built one once but that is a story for another time and another place, had somthing to do with increased efficiency of a pressurized unit, the expansive properties of superheated steam(up to 60 times volume) and 2500#s of hot flying steel. LOL, now anyways! Feel free to email me at [email protected]. Sorry to clog up this thread with such long posts. Russ


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## CMBetz

I am curious about the chemicals added on both the wet side and fire side in the Classic boilers. Are there different chemicals available depending on the chemical qualities of the makeup water? Are the fireside chemicals added to the fuel, or to the ash?


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## Steve

*Aqua-Therm Outside Wood Boiler*

Aqua-Therm has a Very good unit!

Classic (Central) I've seen many rust out in 3 years (Yes Three Years) The Warranty is that there is NO Warranty!

The Heat Mor is OK 

------------------------------ Direct From Aqua-Therm.com------------------------------
15 YEAR WARRANTY 

All Aqua-Therms with the stainless steel firebox have a 15 year limited warranty. In the first 5 years, the warranty pays 100%. In years 6 through 15 the coverage is prorated. All components and controls have a one year warranty. 

Ask for references. Aqua-Therm has an excellent reputation for standing behind its products.

Fire box corrosion is covered.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aqua-Therm Website
http://www.aqua-therm.com


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## jokers

Hi Steve, I`m wondering what makes you say that Aqua Therm has a very good unit but the Heatmor is O.K. ? I hope it`s not just based on the advertised warranty. At any rate, this is a sincere request for info. I know I have done alot of preaching about Heatmor vs Classic, but my knowledge may be somewhat dated. When I looked at the Aqua Therm, I also thought it looked like a good unit but the grates where very cheesy looking. Didn`t look like they would hold up. Do you have an Aqua Therm and how long have you been operating it? One thing I learned when looking at outdoor boilers is that there is alot of chest beating amongst dealers, and manufacturers, and many of them have virtually no first hand experience with boilers of any sort, never mind wood fired boilers. The only criteria to become a dealer for any of the brands I looked at was the ability to be able to "floor plan" a certain number of units, often just enough to pay for your own after selling the others at retail. I did sell Heatmors for a while, but after having used one for almost two years. I think the Heatmor is a very good unit, I don`t know if it`s best now or ever was. I just couldn`t stand all the crap of trying to sell them, primarily talking to people who wanted you to do a real lengthy estimate with a highly detailed drawing of the installation and all necessary components thrown in, and then the other end of the spectrum, people who couldn`t fathom how you could have the heating unit outside the structure, but are more than willing to have you spend copiuos amounts of time trying to educate them. Or the other folks who expect to be able to buy at wholesale prices and get free delivery to boot. The margin for the dealers on the Heatmor and Classic is not all that high. Initially it sounds like good money until you sit down and crunch numbers on how many units you can realistically sell, and what kind of specialized equipment you need to receive, deliver and install these things, then factor in that the dealer is expected to stock an inventory of units, accessories, and replacement parts, which can add up to substantial money tied up. And then you have to be a good liar to sell alot of these things anyway. Tell people what they want to hear and don`t worry about them motherf**kering you after the sale when they realize they are more work than you promised, and the payback period is alot longer than you promised. Or how about the people out in East Bumf**k that demand that you come out and fix the shoddy installation that they paid someone else to do, at your expense, because the original dealer/installer is defunct and the company rep gives them your name as a dealer. These people, even though they actually conducted no business with you, are not averse to bad mouthing YOU when they have a problem. In a very simplistic way you can`t blame them, they got sold a bill of goods and you are associated with the company name. You also have to factor in the amount of time required to go to shows, all over the region at your own expense typically, to show them. They need to be advertised agressively to sell. Don`t get me wrong, I enjoy sharing my opinions and what I think I know. I guess I just felt patronized when people implied that they were able to buy and wanted to buy, but you knew they were just putting on a front so that I would spend my time, often driving to their homes or business', just so they wouldn`t have to put forth any effort. I know I`m off on a tangent here, I just wanted to give the reasons why most dealers don`t stay with it for long, and once your dealer is gone, what are you going to do? Especially if your unit requires OEM parts, or is not field servicable. I think that the manufacturers are making a killing by the sweat of the dealers, and the manufacturers from what I have seen provide minimal support. I say find a way to build your own. From what I have been told by asemi driver delivering a load of these to me, they are all over the country side of Minnesota, all home built. I know what it cost to build one, and it`s not alot, and i know that shipping, markup, and adverstising is significant. After all the bitching I`ve done about people picking my brain for free info I doubt anyone will ask again, and I`m sorry because I don`t mean to discourage anyone here. I `ll be glad to respond to anyone with a question, on my own terms/timing. Several of the posters here can attest to that.
To Christain: the chemicals for the water are generic anti corrosion mixtures that I have seen, although they are sometimes given proprietary packaging. Most boiler supply or well stocked hardware stores have them. The fireside chemicals go into the ash to neutralize the accidity. Sorry about the long winded reply. Russ


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## Steve

Heatmor has a good unit but the reasons that I like the Aqua-Therm better is:

1 - Easier Ash Removal (No Long awkward crank)
2 - Easier to load wood into (Not as big of drop off from door opening)
3 - Less Creasilte Sp? (heatmor's I've seen the inside is all covered) Not very much in the aquatherm
4 - The warranty is good (read below)

I have run an Aqua-Therm for 9 years the first 4 I had a carbon steel model that rusted out! ( I did not take the best care of it did not clean it out that often ) But Aqua-Therm gave me a new Stainless Steel furnace (I had to pay a couple hundred dollars for the price difference from carbon to stainless) I have been running that one ever since with no problems. 

I've not had a problem with the grates, i've thrown some big wood in there. Every summer I will pull the grates and clean everything out. The grates have never bent.

The HeatMor I'm comparing to is my brothers unit that I run when he is out of town.


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## jokers

That`s interesting Steve, thanks for the reply. If you have been running that long on the same grates, they must be pretty good. Sounds like they really stand behind their warranty also. I`ll have to look closer next time I see one. Russ


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## django

Hey All,
Since starting this thread, I have decided to build my own unit.( thanks for your e-mail, Russ.) I am going to build a round one, similar to Aqua- therm ( I have heard good things about them) but if I am not mistaken, all aqua- therm units are pressurized units. 15-18psi. Mine will not be. Does anyone have any experience with non- pressurized units? Specifically Pacific- Western or Woodmaster or Northland etc... I am amazed that your Aqua-Therm rusted out in 4 years! Did you leave the ashes in it during the summer Steve? I'm asking because I am planning to build mine out of Hot rolled steel and want to know just how conciencious I'm gonna have to be. Thanks for all of your input,
Steve


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## UrbanEarth

One thing that I have noticed with all of these units, is that they do not use firebrick. Does anyone know why? Would this help/hinder the corrosion of the firebox? Is there some other problem that using brick creates?

Alan


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## jokers

*Fire Brick*

Heatmor uses fire brick. There is a course right above the sand bed in the bottom, right where all the hottest coals would build up and rest against the sides. Wood fired boilers probably don`t need fire brick because the metal shell of the fire box, which is the inner wall of the water jacket, doesn`t get hot enough to oxidize from the flames. Especially if it`s stainless. I don`t advocate carbon steel for any boiler because of corrosion, but to each their own. Well water is notorious for being hard, meaning it has alot of corrosive minerals and elements in it. Softened water is just as bad with the salt present. Russ


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## Dennis

I am considering the option of building an outdoor stove myself, but there is also the option of geothermal...has anyone had experiences with geothermal heating...I realize the cost is alot more initially..(15,000cdn)(200usd)...but from what I understand it will pay for itself in the end...I have a reasonably small house but a large store and shop, and I was thinking I could heat both..is that possible with the outdoor wood heat?...


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## Steve

*django*

It was a small rust spot in the back corner, water started to seap through. I did not keep it the ashes cleaned out as much as I should of.

I've had 0 problems with the stainless steel model


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## jokers

Hi Dennis, there are alot of different capacity outdoor boilers available. If you are to build one, I would probably model it after one of a known capacity. What you describe as a heat load could easily be handled by one of these boilers. Just use seperate zones off the boiler for the different areas. It might work even better for you since you wouldn`t be likely to have any zones that weren`t in regular use, from what I gather. Many people have to add non-toxic antifreeze to the zones which aren`t always hot. This is very expensive, and it can reduce your heating capacity by up to 60% depending on what freeze protection is required.
Geothermal sounds interesting, but I think you need to go with a contractor who is the best in the field or you won`t be happy. You also have to keep in mind that the geothermal makeup capacity is limited, so if your house is leaky, or you are constantly reheating an area that was let to cool down over night, you will need some sort of auxiliary heat source. I believe that heat pumps only work within a certain differential temperature range also. I would seek out the advice of a University in your area. Russ


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## Dennis

Hmmm...well...without question my house is leaky Russ, but I was under the assumption that geothermal basicaly just maintained a constant level at all times for very little cost..my father tells me...56? degrees I think...then the heating/cooling system takes over....I am thinking I need to check into this alot more...lol..he is putting it in his new house he is building now...but on the same token, it is, without question more energy efficient than mine...


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## jokers

Hi Dennis, I`m no expert on geothermal, it may be that I am wrong. Wait, did I really say that? Anyway, geothermal was a hot topic around Central New York back in the early to mid 80`s and my only true experience with it came from a house I was helping a friend build. He used what I believe is called the "ground loop method", you dig trenches below the frost line and place the pipes in them. The well method, if that is the proper term, is alledged to be alot more efficient, but the installation costs are alot higher. You essentially have a well driller come in and drill several deep holes, depending on what your heating and cooling load will be. I know that my friends system was so sensitive to the temperature differential, that he was paying $500 a month for electric for the aux heaters, just so he could live in the house until he got the basement insulated and he sealed up around all the windows and doors with canned foam. I believe there is a program still in effect in Canada called the R2000 program. It is a joint venture between the government and a couple of universities I believe, and it`s all about energy conservation and efficiency in your harsh environment. If you can`t find anything on this program, let me know. I did have the contact info here somewhere. Russ


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## Dennis

Russ, yes that is the same system I am referring to..the ground loop....I am going to look into the plan you mentioned...thanks for the info...will let ya know


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## django

Hey everybody. Long time no post.
I have been quite busy so I havent perused the site in some time. Anyhow, I am almost done building my outdoor stove and will send pictures soon. It weighs in at 1800lbs without water and has taken me a LOT of time to build. But should be worth it.
Anybody out there know where I can purchase a water to air heat exchanger (radiator) for inside my forced air furnace?


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## Newfie

Why would you want to put the exchanger in the furnace?

It would probably make more sense to connect your outdoor boiler to the stand alone exchanger and make new connections from the exchanger to the outgoing and return ductwork.

I would also think it might be safer if the exisitng forced hot air system is a direct flame type.

Your local plumbing/HVAC supplier should be able to set you up with what you need.

Of course I might be completely wrong.


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## django

Hi Mike,
The furnace plenum, just below the a-coil (if you have one) seems to be the location of choice of all the manufacturers of these stoves, if you have forced air heat as I do. This avoids any further fabrication as in a stand alone, also it allows the furnace to heat the water and keep it from freezing in the event of the wood fired unit malfunctioning. I have a Lennox Pulse furnace by the way and it is a piece of crap. Avoid Lennox Pulse furnaces like the plague. I have checked with some local HVAC guys for an exchanger and thier prices are quite high. In case you haven't noticed, I am Cheap. That is why I built my own stove, I just don't want to try to build my own exchanger, I am going to build my own shell and tube exchanger for domestic hot water though.
Thanks for your reply,
Steve


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## Newfie

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the explanation. I have forced hot air myself but a slightly different set-up. The Peerless boiler essentially cooks water (as your outdoor furnace will) and sends the heated water to the exchanger (where the plenum is located). The advantage is that I can use the same exchanger and duct work for my central air. I can see your point of view though, because they are costly units. Cheap is good as long as it safe!


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## django

Yeah, safe is good. Jokers (Russ) told me about his experiment with pressurized system, Not for me, thank you.
Just what picture of you that is not your portrait, am I supposed to be looking at?


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## Newfie

It's just one of those sayings, sort of along the lines of don't judge a book by it's cover, kinda thing.


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## django

O.K., Kind of like "There once was a man from Nantucket......."


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## Gopher

Have any of you checked out the "Garn" wood units? They look really good, and I know a local sawyer who is installing a Garn to do his kiln dried wood. 

I had a Heatmor (sold the house) for four years, and a good friend has a Central Boiler. I did rate the Heatmor over the Central Boiler. Yes they are spendy ( I went with 1" copper in my basement versus the kytec tubing, and I spent around $6000 total). I lived in Northwest Wisconsin t the time, and I kept track of the propane savings, and I broke even after just over four years. Of course, I cut trees and never paid dime one for any wood. Sometimes the neighbor would drop off wood he didn't want to handle as well (a tree service).

When we build our next place (in about a year if our economy doesn't totally go in the proverbial toilet), I will need to ask some questions to the people who are now looking at the option of building there own. Otherwise, the Garn unit is the one I am leaning toward. It will heat my home, shop, driveway, hot water and perhaps a small kiln for wood drying.

Good conversation.

gopher


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## django

Hello, Nope, never heard of Garn. That dosen't mean much though. These things are popping up all over the place, everybody and thier brother are making them. Before I made mine I looked at heatmore , central boiler, woodmaster,pacific western, heatsource 1, hardy, mahoning, taylor,northland,johnson aquatherm, etc..... and I didn't begin to cover them all. The fact is there is very little meaningful difference in any of them. It comes down to square vs. round and what materials the stove is made out of. Everybody has their gimmicks,
(heatlock baffle", "turbo draft" etc..). I modeled mine very loosely after Pacific Western, because I firmly believe in the superiority of a round design for longevity (using mild steel), and a lot less welding , if you have access to a roller as I do. and I liked their burner design, "The Cold Killler!" I have about 60 digital photos of my stove in various stages of completion and I will post some soon. I dont't want to come across as any kind of expert, but I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions before making mine, so if you have questions I may be able to help. Plus I work with some pretty good engineers, electrical and mechanical (a rarity, those good engineers) who helped me.
See Ya,
Steve


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## jokers

Hi Steve, glad to see you did it! I`d like to see some of your pics when you get a chance to post them. I might be in the market to build another myself and I`m always open to new ideas. I know from our previous conversations that you made yourself quite knowledgable in this area and I`d like to freeload a bit, if I may, and check out what you came up with. Russ


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## django

What is the best way to post pics? All of mine were taken with a Mavica.


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## jokers

Hi Steve, does that mean they are still on a floppy? You will have to upload them to a photo editing program and then resize them. Depending on the program you use, you may want to make copies first so that you have the original level of detail when you want a larger pic. I use Photoshop and resize mine to 480x320 pixels and they always fit here. Once you have them sized and saved somewhere you just scroll down this page to where it says attach file, and select the location and file name, and submit your message. It`s about that simple, just make sure you select a valid file type(from the list at Attach File) when you are sizing your photos. Russ


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## django

If it works, this is the stove at roughly 75% complete


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## django

Here is the finished product


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## django

control panel


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## django

The belly of the beast


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## django

OOPS!!!! Here is the belly.


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## Gopher

Hey, looks good! I don't have the capacity to put it all together like you have. Nice work.


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## bwalker

Iv been mulling over getting an out door wood burner. I will be living in the UP of MI where the temps are cold and there is a ton of snow. The house is around 2000 sq ft and I would also like to run my hottub and water heater off of it. I like the heatmor the best because of the stainless construction and the fire brick liner, but Im open to other brands if one is superior. My question is this: How much wood will I be going through with the heatmore setup, What will be the real life burn time, what am I looking at cost wise completly installed(heard that there are a lot of hidden costs), any brands better than heatmor? BTW the house has a excisting gas water heater and a gas forced air furnace. bw


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## jokers

Hi BW, I`ll try to help you out with hidden costs. The closer you put the unit to your house the better off you will be. Both in installed costs and the amount of wood you burn. the question of how much wood you burn is very subjective since not all 2000 sq ft homes are the same, with the same climatic exposures. You will burn more in the Heatmor or any other boiler than you would burn in a woodstove in the house. Heat loss between the boiler and the house is significant. I live on the southeast corner of Lake Ontario where it gets and stays pretty cold, although not as cold as your area, and in all but the coldest times of winter you can see a significant depression in the snow over the pipes to the house. My pipes are buried at 4'. For add ons, you will need a plate heat exchanger for your hot water, ~ $125, a zone valve, and a strap on temp controller, ~$60, and a water to air exchanger, ~ $225 with zone valve for the exhaust plenum on your existing furnace. You will also need the w/a exchanger installed in the plenum. You need a fan start relay installed in your furnace so that it operates without the burner and a seperate T-stat for the Heatmor. You normally run a smaller diameter pipe from the boiler with a forced air setup to keep water velocity higher, 1" vs 1 1/4", so costs here are somewhat cheaper. I think I posted here my preffered method of pipe insulation which seems to work well. Let me know if you have any questions. Russ


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## Gopher

When I put my Heatmor in, I made sure I had plenty of valves at key locations. I isolated the pump with a valve on each side to enable simple removal should there have been any problems (there wasn't). We (my brother-in-law, uncle and myself) decided that the next unit we do (if it's forced air) we will change the system set up to enable air conditioning use in the summer, while continuing to heat the domestic hot water use.

Just a couple of points to consider. 

Another point; I didn't hook up my dryer. The wife of the dealer I bought my stove from had hers hooked up for one year, and siad it just wasn't worth the time it took to dry clothes versus the efficiency of say a gas dryer. 

I'd be interested in hearing other arguments.

Gopher


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## bwalker

Has anyone rigged there outside wood furnace to burn waste oil? I saw a post some where on the net where a guy did this. It was gravity fed and used the thermostat from the stove to trigger a valve that allowed oil to flow into the combustion box. Seems like a good idea, especially with all the oil my diesel goes through.


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## django

Absolutely. There are manufacturers that have this as on option on their stoves. I believe Taylor is one of them. I would do it myself with mine but I don't have access to enough oil to make it worth it. If you got oil, I say go for it. BTU;s are BTU's.
Steve


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## eyolf

I've enjoyed this thread, but it has me scared...How come my classic still doesn't leak after 11 years? I do clean it out good 2 or 3 times a year.

I put my hot-water pipes about 3' down, and have no problem with heat loss. Thermometer readings indicate 2-3 degrees from stove to house (80 feet), but I insulated really well. 3" thick styrofoam beadboard made into a box, glued together as tube was layed.

House is leaky old farmhouse, main floor and upstairs about 2000 ft, plus basement. 12 cords a year, more if I have to burn lots of popple.


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## django

Who said anything about leaks? The oil isn't for corrosion resistance, it's for heat. The ones I remember, called them Dual Fuel stoves and part of the reasoning is if you run out of wood for whatever reason, the oil or propane etc.... took over. So you have a Classic? ( Central Boiler) Natural Draft or Fan?? The Classic's I know of around here are natural draft ( elect. damper)and they smoke pretty heavy if their chimneys are not fairly long.
I know a few that have rusted out, but if you do the maintainance, ( like you do,)they last a long time. I sure hope so "cause mine (homemade) is mild steel and I don't want to have to make another on anytime soon. Do you oil yours in the off season??


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## bwalker

django, You have any thoughts on how I could make a heatmore burn waste oil. I thought about using a roof mounted tank which wood feed into the firebox via a 1/8"steel line. I would like to have the thermostat for the stove trigger the oil feed via a switch of some sort. The problem is finding a electric switch that will work with oil and one that is not saftey hazard. The oil storage tank would be metal off course to prevent fire.


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## django

Hey bwalker, Are you going to use a "drip" into the firebox, or atomize the oil? I assume a drip. You don't need any explosion proof switchgear for waste oil, it is hard enough to get it to burn on purpose let alone by a switch spark. Piece of cake.
Steve


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## bwalker

I was just going to let it drip. I dont see a need to atomise the oil as it will only be to suplement the wood. What are your thoughts? How would one build a device to atomise the waste oil? Seems to me you would need something to apply pressure to it like a small compressor of some sort.


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## Crofter

BWALKER We burned used oil to help heat a shop. Gravity feed has a few problems. The drip pipe cokes up and plugs . The oil changes temp. and vicosity so is hard to regulate. It often has guck in it so you have to filter or your needle valve is a problem. If the fire loses its flame, the oil can gssify then go of with quite a whoosh. You have to drip right onto burning wood or else onto a stainless hubcap or such to burn decently or it will just soak into the ashes. You always wind up spilling oil. Thats the bad parts the good is its free, The easiest way to regulate it thoug is have a variable pump, you don't need any amout of pressure. I think you could easily fashion one from a saw oiler or the oil injection pump from a snow machine. I have been head first inside quite a few of thes boilers doing emergency repairs when they corrode out. Mostly from the fire side, not the water side. Some of the first ones were only 3/16 mild steel and gave probs in less than five years. If I were building one I would use at least 409 alloy steel for the firebox. It is not a true stainless but much better than mild steel. I believe it is what most snow machine and bike mufflers are out of. It sure gives the back yard welders the fits when they try to braze it because of its 12% Crome content but it will arc weld nicely with 9018 Low Hydrogen rod. I have an acquaintance that heats a green house with a quick and dirty hhomemade setup using 2 Bulldozer radiators and harware store fans. A couple of winters ago he burned a complete barn that had gone down with the wind. It ain't fussy about what it eats.

Frank


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## django

If you want to atomize, ( I wouldnt) Your best bet is to go to a retailer and check out the commercial oil burners. The ones I am familiar with use compressed air for pressure, Makes me wonder what that does to your energy costs, as Comp. air is expensive. Sounds like Crofter has some good advice to me.
Basic diaphram type pumps are a dime a dozen to power a drip.
You could also fashion a systolic pump out of a cheap ( ebay) gear motor...... Crofter, I made my outdoor stove ( pics elswhere in this thread) out of 7ga. 1018 hot rolled mild steel for a couple of reasons: It's cheap. It rolls and breaks well, With proper maintainance, mild steel stoves last years and years. ( see eyolf's post) I wasn't sure my design would work well. ( it seems to) The stainless I would use ( 409 is BARELY stainless) is 304 or better yet, 316, The problm with the higher grade stainless steels is heat transfer is quite a bit poorer than carbon steels.But you can use substantially thinner material, so it's probably a wash. It's also expensive especially when you are experimenting.


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## kam

> _Originally posted by bwalker _
> How would one build a device to atomise the waste oil? Seems to me you would need something to apply pressure to it like a small compressor of some sort. [/B]



Get a used oil burner from friends or neighbors who are switching their oil furnace to gas,or check with a local furnace installer and offer to take the burner from their garbage pile. These burners have a 175 psi pump,forced combustion air,flame detector,and ignition. Get the control box and you will also have over temperature sensors and safety shut off.You will probably have to change the nozzle to accomodate the thicker oil. I've not made a furnace but I use the pump to spray crankcase oil on my car
(175 psi) for rustproofing


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## bwalker

> but I use the pump to spray crankcase oil on my car


The epa would love you,LOL.


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## geofore

*atomize*

There is a danger in telling you what will work to atomize oil because drip is the way to go with your boiler. The Bosch fuel injection pumps I installed to burn used oil are still working without a breakdown since 1968. The danger is if you don't know what you are doing these pumps can be adjusted from 0 to 6,000 psi. 6,000psi is way more than you need. I built a 5 burner unit that burned 28 gallons per hour run off one Bosch pump (six cylinder) it melted the concrete floor out from under the boiler and the fire brick slid (melted) into the concrete to a depth of three feet before the boiler began to tip over and had to be shut down. Rockwell makes a burner that will do the same but it costs about 14k. Go with the drip method, I don't think you have a need to heat 17 acres of greenhouse or burn 2,000 gallons of oil a day. The boiler that heated my house was built in 1929 and taken out of service in 1992. 1/2" plate steel, 40 horsepower but run at low pressure, hot water not steam. The biggest unit I built held 6,000+ gallons.


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## bwalker

> (six cylinder) it melted the concrete floor out from under the boiler and the fire brick slid (melted) into the concrete to a depth of three feet before the boiler began to tip over and had to be shut down.


Yikes. That sounds like a waste oil powered blast furnace. I dont want smelt metal I just want to heat my house,lol.
I am likely going to use the drip method, but the injecting it via fuel oil burning furnace pump sounds like a option as well. My friend is in the heating and cooling business so I am sure he could get me one. The oriface size to achieve the proper spray pattern should pretty easy to figure out.


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## geofore

*oil spray pattern*

It is not that easy with a heavier oil, the home heating furnaces are designed to used no#2 oil and don't have the pressure required to get motor oil to spray properly without a lot of smoke from an incomplete burn. They will burn a 75%/25% mix of no#2 oil to motor oil but are still a little smokey. The motor oil retains water and drip is the best method for your type of boiler. The guy wanted to see what it could do when his other two boilers went down. I told him it would melt the floor and it did. The fire was hot enough to vaporize steel, white hot, it hurt the eyes to look at it without a filter lens.You need special firebrick and firebox design to do that. The noise sounded like a jet engine but we did get 400*F over theortically achievable tempeture by pressurizing the air feed. It was working fine but you could not run it around the clock without the floor getting a chance to cool down. If he had paid to put in two more layers of firebrick it would have been okay but at $7 per brick he passed on the extra layers of brick. He bought the extra bricks when we redid the boiler though, he never ran it that hot again. There is another trick, preheat the oil before you run it through the injector system, industrial use only. Anyway it is not as easy as it sounds. Go with the drip method.


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## bwalker

Have any of you guys cruised the central boiler website lately? They are now offering a stainless model. I really like the firebox design of the CB. It seems like it would be more efficiant than the heatmor


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## Bill G

I just found this thread tonight. To be honest this is the first time I have went to the off topic forum. The one thing I cannot believe is why someone has not mention the Hardy wood burning furnace. I want to make it clear that i do not have one nor do I sell them but I think they would be my choice for a first furnace. As far as I know it was the first outdoor furnace designed. I know Central Boiler claims to have been around a long time but I will assure you in my area of the Midwest Hardy has been around the longest. You guys have mention rusting ? The Hardy is completely stainless. It will not rust. They had a few problems with leaking welds. All of those units were replaced. The biggest disadvantage is that they are much samller in size than others. They will need to be fired twice a day. In my opinion I find it hard to believe that you can fuel some of these units every other day. The thought of actually putting wood in a furnace with a forktruck scares the hell out of me. That is one og the most dangerous things I can think of. The huge advantage of the Hardy is cost. They can be purchased for about $2500 compared to $5000-$50,000 for others. I can get more info if anyone wants it. Once again I do not own one and have no experience with them. My opinions are based on observations. I sincerely appreciate all the posts from personal experience.

Bill


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## Bill G

I just thought of some experiences ome of you may me interested in. Two years ago I stopped into a fireplace shop and priced a wood stove. He priced it to me at $500-$600 out the door. I bought the same stove for $250 from another store. I stopped back into the same store this fall. He priced me a $450 stove at $1500. That was the stove installed with 12 ft of stainless pipe. Now I am not opposed to a business making money but this is obscene. He installed a fireplace insert and liner in my neighbors one story house at a cost of $2600. The insert could have been bought for $500 and the liner for $200. I would have installed it for nothing. (he has a keg tapped in his garage for afterwards). This same dealer is selling mantels for $500-$700 that we have built and installed for $250-$350. It is unbelievable. My point of this post is not to slam dealers. they have to make money just like all of us. The point is you really need to look around at all the options. I like the quality of the Hardy stove but I also think there is some real benefits of the higher priced units. 

just my rambling thoughts

Bill


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## WRW

I've got a Hardy. Unless the temperatures don't get out of the teens I can get by with one filling a day...2,200 sq. ft. house. I've been happy with it.


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## django

Hi All, As to the Hardy, Around here we call them Hardly's 'cause their hardly worth having. The silly things are made in Mississippi for pete's sake. How cold does it get in Mississippi?? They look like a giant refrigerator setting in your yard. I personally know of several in my neck of the woods and wouldn't have one because: They are wood hogs. They dont' seem to get the heat out of them as well as some others, Their domestic hot water coil is OUT AT THE STOVE. They smoke like you wouldn't believe. They are the cheesiest made stove I have ever seen. Now, they are reasonably priced and Heatmor etc... are big bucks, thats why I made my own. If you want a Hardy, go for it, I just don't think their very good stoves. As to Central Boiler's firebx design, It's O.K., more of a gimick than anything.Lots of places for corrosion to happen. "Efficient" is a somewhat dubious term when describing these stoves. Remember, there are many grades of Stainless, and many of them still corrode.


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## WRW

OK, django, I'm stumped. Since the source of heat is out at the stove, where should the domestic hot water coil be?


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## django

Most ,if not all, other outdoor waterstoves use either a "sidearm" waterheater ( which is what I use) or a plate style exchanger (better yet) or a shell and tube exchanger ( big bux) in the house. That way your domestic line doesn't run out to the stove and back. Hardy is the only one I know that does this, and last I heard, were getting away from it.


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## bwalker

Django, Since you seem to have researched all the brands out there. Which one do you think is best? I really like the heatmor, but he classic is nice as well.


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## django

Well BW, I patterned mine after a Pacific Western. They are made in Canada, a lot of people never heard of them. and I liked their design. But they're pricey.
However I was very impressed with Aquatherm. Very Professional people and a very good stove. The Central Boiler is not high on my list especially Natural Draft models. Their warranty leaves something to be desired also. I prefer powered draft for several reasons. You can do what you want, but as for me I overwhelmingly prefer round stoves. The design is as old as dirt for a reason, it works. My bro. in law has a Heatmore, seems like a nice unit. $6000. Thats a lot of cash for what you get. I guess if I made a recomendation it would be Aquatherm, really super everytime I spoke with them and the stove is excellent. One I was intrigued with but didn't investigate very far was Johnson stoves. One word of caution: Don't believe ridiculous claims about burn times and efficiencies. If they say their stove will heat 6000 sq. ft. figure about 3000 real world. ( at a 12 hr. burn time) Happy hunting, there is a bunch of them out there.


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## WRW

django,
The only coil on the Hardy, to my knowledge, is the potable water coil. I thought that was what you meant by "domestic". 
Now if you are speaking of the water for heat, it is circulated but what would the option to that be? The only domestic connection is the fill pipe and that water is not circulated back into the household water supply.


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## django

Bill, That's exactly what I meant. The exchangers I spoke of are for your household hot water. "domestic" and "potable" are interchangable terms. If you dont believe me, check out Hardy's website.


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## Bill G

django,

I am wondering why you think that because the Hardy is made in Mississippi that they do not know how to build them. I would believe the reason the are located there is because that where the owners are located. There is a huge variance in wages between areas and generally wages are lower in the south. You must also consider the availability of materials. The transportation system may be excellent allowing them to cut costs and pass on the savings to the customer. Once again I am not sold on the Hardy I am just pointing them out as an option. I looked at a operating Heatmoor today. The former owner of the house had installed one and it rusted out to the point to which it was scrapped. He sold the house and the new owner installed a new Heatmoor. I would have thought after the earlier bad experience the former owner would never buy one again. As i drove by his other place I noticed he had another heatmoor in his yard.

Bill


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## django

True, they could be made in Singapore, ( not a bad idea, really)
and be good stoves. I know of several around me, and they just don't get good reviews. They are the Yugo of woodstoves. If you like it, buy it. I just don't recommend them. Ask Jokers or some of the other guys that have the outdoor burners, if they looked at them, what their opinion of them is, maybe I have a skewed impression. I like the fact that they are 304 stainless, and comparably inexpensive, they just seem to use a huge amount of wood and smoke big time. and to my eye, they are as ugly as a mud fence. There is a fellow that I know that has a house smaller than mine and better insulated, who has a Hardy he just bought this winter. It is the larger model, and he has to fill it 3 times a day to keep the house at 72 degrees. The wood is hardwood and moderately seasoned. I fill mine 2 times a day, keep the house at 76, and always have good coals for the next charge. This could be an insulation issue, I insulated the heck out of mine when I built it. Hardy's don't have much insulation in them, and no place to add more. ( unless you cover the ugly thing up with it) The other guys I know that have Heatmor's( well insulated) don't seem to use an inordinate amount of wood, and they only smoke heavy during startup. There are so many variables to take into account, that perhaps apples aren't being compared to apples, but the concensus around these parts of the "serious" woodburners is stay away from the Hardy. You want one, buy one, don't say I didn't warn you. As to the Heatmor rusting out, It was probably a mild steel stove that wasn't cared for, probably replaced with a stainless model. There is significant maintainence to these that usually does not get performed, in my opinion, that is why there is such a strong move to "stainless" stoves. A Hardy shouldn't rust for avery long time , I'll give them that. They do seem to have a problem with the doors warping, though. Simply put, they are the cheapest stove out there in more ways than one. Ask around.


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## bwalker

*steel*

After doing a bit of research it looks as if pacific western, heatmore and aquatherm use 400 series stainless steel. This is the same stuff used in the auto industry to get a vehicles exhaust to barely last 100,000 miles. non of these stoves will be impervious to corrosion that use this steel.

BTW From the looks of things I am going with a aqua-therm. the only question I have is how well there inclosure is insulated as i havent seen one in person?


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## django

Hey Ben,
I think Aquatherm is a good choice. Their "enclosure" I believe is a shed that goes "around" the stove as opposed to those that are a "permanent" type mounted to the stove. If memory serves, it adds $1000 to the cost. When I was eyeballing them I had planned to build my own enclosure around it and insulate it myself. This is an option most companies don't offer. This is a cost effective way to get exactly what you want.
Pacific Western uses a pretty good grade of 400 series stainless that has been alloyed with columbium, I never could get them to give me an actual allloy number, but their warranty is 20 YEARS
against rust-through. Twice what anybody else at the time offered. Now, as Chris Farley said in "Tommy-Boy" " "You want a gaurantee? I can take a crap in a box and mark it "guaranteed" but at the end of the day, all I've sold you is a guaranteed piece of sh*t." So you never know. But I have heard good things about their stoves. Not trying to change your mind. Aquatherm is a good stove but it is a pressurized system, and I don't really know the pro's and cons of that. But like I said before, they really came across as an excellent company with a great product.
Steve


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## Bill G

Once again Iam not defending the Hardy. I am not totally sold on them myself. I do however like to point out misconceptions. You speak of doors warping. I believe you are actually referring to the firebox cracking at the door. This may have caused the door to warp. This was a problem and Hardy came into the field and fixed them free of charge. They fixed units that were over 20yrs old. This did not happen with the other brands that developed problems. I have an open mind to all barnds including designing and building one myself. They proper may to build it is to find as many of the weaknesses of all the brands and avoid them. I am really puzzled by the fact that you talk about the amount of wood they "eat". They do have a much smaller firebox thus requiring you to fill it much more often. I did discover a few problems this weekend that really disturbed me about them. The local dealer that has been selling them for many years will not install them. I asked why and he said because he did not want to deal with the liability. I told him that I thought if he was a viable dealer than the company should have trained him in installation. they also should be insuring him. When I checked around guess what the Central Bioler and Heatmoor dealers also do not install them. The other problem I found is that up until a couple years ago the local dealer was heating his domesitic hot water with a electric hot water heater. This really made me lose confidence in them

Bill


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## django

When I say the doors warp, I mean the doors warp. And I'm not talking 20 yr. old stoves either. Does it matter why? Not to me. A warped door for any reason is a runaway stove. Bad News. Have I seen this personally? No. Have I heard of this happening more than once? Yes. I guess I would expound on the "proper" way to build one, after I actually built one. (which I did, and I still don't feel like an "expert" although I looked at over 20 different models to decide which one(s) I liked) Is mine the end-all superstove adiabatic wonder of the world? No. But it works like I hoped it would. Could my 120lb steel door warp? Of course, but it ain't likely. . .This system of heating is by nature is inefficient.It ain't rocket science, but it does take time and homework. And about 2200lbs of steel.
You don't understand how one woodstove can use more wood to heat a given space than another? That one system can be more efficient than another? Sure you do. As to the firebox size, on a Hardy, did you know you can get pretty much whatever size you want ? Hardy has something like 5 or 6 models one with a firebox of 34x42x52. Thats plenty big. That's darn near huge. Have you seen more than one size or model of Hardy? Or a Hardy brochure? It doesn't sound like it. Every dealer of every brand ( Heatmor, Hardy Central etc...) around here is an installer and all the ones I talked to WANTED to install the unit, there is money to be made. I am not sure why your neck of the woods is different, that is peculiar. As to the hot water, with my sidearm exchanger, and tempering valve, I get all the hot water anyone could want. A plate exchanger is even better. I'm pretty much done talking about Hardy's now. Like I said, you want one? Buy one. It's your money. Best of luck to you. It sounds to me like your trying to talk yourself into one. They sure seem like a good deal at first glance, at least I thought so, until I asked around. If you don't know any different, you'll probably be happy. And isn't that all that matters when one parts with the cash?


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## bwalker

Django, Thats disturbing news about the aqua-therm not coming with a good enclosure. I do not really want build one as that would bring cost up too much. Looks like it back to pacific western or heatmore.


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## django

Bill, 
I can look at my library of brochures to see if that is for sure but I am almost positive that is the case. I wouldn't say it isn't a "good" enclosure, it may be great, but it was an add-on last time I checked. Also, I think the aqua-therm uses an ash auger to remove ashes and that is a pro's/cons issue also. Did you investigate Johnson Stoves?


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## bwalker

Nope, I never looked at Johnson as I could never find a net address for them. To bad somebody doesnt do a comsumer reports type outdoor woodburner shootout.


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## django

First off, sorry I called you Bill, Ben.
Johnson as far as I can tell, has no website. However, there is info about them on dealer sites. The closest thing to a comparison I found was between outdoor and indoor woodburners. Outdoor gets it's butt kicked as far as efficiency goes. and emmissions. http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outboiler.htm is an interesting page.... If you would like I can post a bunch of websites of different manufacturers etc... Let me know. Here's some.

http://www.cedarloglumber.com/johnson.html has a little on the Johnson.

http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaces.org/ is a thinly disguised advertisement for Pacific Western.

http://www.shol.com/mahoning/Descript.htm man is this thing UGLY.

http://www.heatsource1.com/

http://www.aqua-therm.com/pages/Tframeset.html

http://www.woodmaster.com/

http://www.northlandoutdoorwoodfurnace.com/index.php3

http://hardyheater.com/index.html

http://www.outdoorfurnaces.com/

http://www.heatmor.com/


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## django

A little better link for the Johnson

http://www.hud-son.com/woodfurnaces.htm


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## Bill G

I believe in having an open mind and looking at all alternatives. If you know of someone who has a warped door then they are not smart enough to get it replaced. Have I even looked at a Hardy. Well I had to laugh at that. Yeah I have many times along with many other brands. As to different firebox sizes I fully aware of that. As to the domestic hot water option I really do not care about it. I do not plan on firing through the summer. The links posted are very helpful in looking at other brands that do not have dealers in this area. Whatever brand I end up with it must be good because I wll end up with probably several units for different locations. The Aquatherm is one that has not made it to this area so the website will be helpful. The models that can be loaded with a forktruck scare me. I really can not see a business allowing an employee to dump pallets or wood into a furnace with a skidloader or forktruck. I wonder how OSHA feels on the issue. 

Bill


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## django

Hi Bill,
If your going to buy several units for many locations, you should have some pretty good leverage when it comes to negotiating price.( especially if you buy in the off season) I asked you if you had seen more than one Hardy because you repeatedly mentioned the "smaller than the others" firebox, did you not? I don't heat my domestic hot water in the summer either,( too much smoke) but you may as well do it while your heating in winter, it pays for itself pretty quickly. As to loading with a fork truck or skid steer
that seems like it could be dangerous and I don't know if there are special considerations when doing this. Thankfully I don't have to use that much stove. I have more links if you want me to post them. I really want to see one of the Johnson Stoves in person, I am intrigued by them, but nobody around here has one.
As to the warped doors being replaced, of course they had them replaced. You can't control a stove with a leaky door. The door warping has nothing to do with how smart someone is . 
Why will you be buying multiple stoves? Do you have rental's?


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## bwalker

Django, The johnsons appear to be plate steel. Not stainless fwiw.


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## django

Yeah, they're mild steel. That's O.K. with me. Whats fwiw?


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## bwalker

fwiw=for what its worth.

Django, Do you use antifreeze or some other corrosion inhibitor in your furnace? Also, why doesnt some one design boiler in a manner that water doesnt come in contact with the firebox? IE wrapping the exterior of the firebox with water filled copper tubing. This would eliminate the corrosion problem. Efficiancy might be a issue, but I wouldnt think it would be a big differance.


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## Crofter

*Some good ideas*

Ben I have thoought the same thing regarding separating the firebox from the heat pickup liquid. Of necessity the inside of the boiler cant be much over 180 F to prevent actually boiling and losing the water. At this temperature the acidic products of combustion condense on the sides and bathe the metal in a pretty aggressive black soup. 90 % of the corrosion occurs on the fire side of the metal not the water side. Adding glycol and some other chemicals helps reduce water side corrosion. Glycol as antifreeze of course is necessary if there is possibility of losing your power supply for circulating long enough to freeze. It would be nice to have copper coils in sand, say around the firbox to pick up the heat. Firebrick could line the box and temperatures could be high enoug on the surface to prevent condensing creosote. The elimination of the 75 or so gallons of water that acts as a cushion or heat flywheel to store the temperature peaks and dips increases the risk of boiling and almost immediately percolating out all your heat exchange fluid. In otherwards it makes regulating the energy input more critical which is not so easy with the nature of burning wood. I am not sure that that system would be nearly as efficient. Maybe it would be adding another middleman to the transaction. LOL! Now wasn't that a long winded dissertation. Glens will think I'm after his job LOL!

Frank


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## django

I use a corrosion inhibitor and a sludge conditioner. Both Central Boiler products. No anti-freeze. My pipes are 4' deep in the ground so in theory, if my pump stays running, the water won't freeze. I also have a generator. Glycol Based anti-freeze really screws up the heat transfer. Contrary to what many people think (as I thought when I started out) the waterjacket almost never fails, it is the firebox that fails, allowing water into the firebox which really speeds up corrosion. That's why nobody worries about the water coming into contact, they corrode inside out. It is my opinion that the copper tube method would result in significant reduction in heat transfer due to the small surface area of the tubing that would actually contact the firebox. Air is a lousy conductor of heat. Contact of surface area is the reason they work at all. A 1/2" air gap between firebox and waterjacket would render one of these completely useless. I also use a product called ASHTROL( Central Boiler) in the firebox for reduction of creosote and corrosion inhibing. Central Boiler has a very comprehensive parts catalogue, very nice.


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## django

I was actually typing my response at the same time as crofter. He beat me. Glad to see we seem to agree with eah other!
"Heat Flywheel" I LOVE IT!! You can bet I'll use that one!


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## Crofter

Django Do you have figures on the difference in heat transfer with a Glycol solution vs straight water. It is just used so commonly in industrial heat exchange i thought it was good. It does have the advantage of bumping up the boiling point of the solution. I have about 150 ft of 6 inch Sch. 80 pipe that I was thinking of using but don't want to use that much glycol. Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on frost proofing. 

Frank


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## django

The figure I see most often is a 20% reduction in heat transfer. Or better put: 20% more heat input to get the same result. Pacific Western recommends a product called Dowfrost. ( Dow Chemical) OH BUDDY is it expensive.


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## bwalker

> Pacific Western recommends a product called Dowfrost. ( Dow Chemical) OH BUDDY is it expensive.


 Thats interesting. A college buddy of mine works engineering for Dow in Midland. He gets me stuff really cheap ie free. Gave me this stuff to melt ice on my driveway. Never seen anything like it.


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## django

Hmmmm............ Wonder what it would cost to ship a 55 gallon drum to Northern Ohio...... I wonder what the mix ratio is to prevent freezing a -30F. Is it 50/50 like E. Glycol?


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## bwalker

Django,I will call him tonight and get the low down on the dow product. Do you know the products trade name?


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## django

Dowfrost is all I know.


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## django

http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaces.org/guide_frames.html

This link talks about several considerations for outdoor stoves and mentions an 18% loss in heat transfer for Glycol. This is also the link that mentions Dowfrost.


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## bwalker

Django, I just looked up dowfrost on dows site and I see it is a propylene glycol fluid. PG is worse heat transfer wise than standard ethylene glycol automotive type antifreeze.


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## django

Huh. I wonder why they recommend it then? They specifically say it is superior to automotive anti-freeze. This warrants further investigation.


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## django

Perhaps this will help: I'm not sure what is meant by "good" heat transfer properties.

http://www.arctichill.com/dowfrost.htm
http://www.dow.com/heattrans/family/dowfrost/
http://www.itsgreatstuff.com/heattrans/info.htm


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## Bill G

django,

I do have rentals but I really am not interested in having them burn wood at this time. I have kicked around the idea of building a multiplex that utilizes hot water heat and a large outdoor unit. I believe I could make it work but I am just thinking about it for know. The reason I would need multiple units is I have a house and small shop at my place, a house and the main shop at the farm, a house a medium shop at my brothers, and a large shop and small warehouse at another location. In addition if I can get a good deal on some my neighbor would want one also. If I could find a product that I could honestly stand behind I would be interested in being a dealer for them. This would probably never work out but it is a thought. As for the one that you built have you calculated your total investment to see if it would be profitable for you to build them for others.

Bill G


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## django

Total: stove, pump, exchangers, etc... about $1700. It could be done a lot cheaper, and a lot more expensive. There is a whole bunch of labour in one of these when you do it by yourself with equipment not necessarily specialized for the purpose. ( Material handling is a big issue, they are HEAVY.) I think you could build them profitably with a dedicated manufacturing facility without too much trouble. To bulid them "on the side" your gonna pay yourself about $5 an hour if your'e price-competitive, if your lucky. I still wonder if someone won't have them built overseas and shipped here, that would be very tough to compete with, raw material's are relatively in-expensive, it's labour intensive to say the least. A viable option would be to become a final assembler and sub-contract the various components and assemblies to people who specialize in them. ( Doors, drums, etc...) 

If your going to buy multiple units, your talking about a very significant purchase ( obviously). I don't think your going to get a piece of crap if you buy from any of the "big boys"... Heatmor, Central Boiler, Aquatherm, etc... As I have tried to get across in some previous posts, none of them are "efficient" users of fuel. by nature they are grossly in-efficient.
"Free" fuel is the only way they make any sense. ( at least to me). Their is so much B.S. thrown around by the manufacturers it is hard to tell what's what. That's why I did so much research before building mine. When it's all said and done they are nothing more than a large firebox surrounded by water, with a natural draft or induced draft. I think if it was me, talking about that kind of cash outlay, I would go with the best warranty, from the most established manufacturer, from the most reputable dealer. I'm not sure who that is, But it is probably Central Boiler. Or even (gasp) Hardy. One thing I should have mentioned about Hardy, warped doors, etc... is that in every instance, ( one I personally know of where the stove "boiled" and did all kinds of damage) Hardy was by all accounts very responsive, and took care of the issues quickly and professionally. So, how's that for muddy water??


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## Crofter

I 'd agree with what Django says about building it yourself. If you can find a tank of sorts such as a retired propane tank or something the right size that you just basically have to cut in a door you might be ok hours wise. If you have roll plate , make the circumference and lenghtwise welds etc., forget it. you wont make minimum wage even if you are a tradesman. There can be troubles with localised hot spots causing boil over and cracking is not an easy thing to prevent.. Just making things stronger doesnt do it. Sometimes it takes two or three years of thermo cycling befor a problem may show up. They do suck up a lot of wood, unless like one agricultural application that was big enough to use whole round hay bales in theirs.

Frank


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## django

I searched high and low for "tanks" or drums etc... that would work. The problem I ran into is you need 2 tanks, of different dia. that would allow a reasonable water cap. for a non pressurized application. I am sure they could be found eventually, I ran out of patience, It would have definitely made life easier. I figured it out when I was done, I have well ove 100 ft. of weld in my stove. And it's round. You will have even more if you build a "square" one. More welds=more leaks. However if you don't have the equipment to roll barrels you don't have much choice, unless you have a fab shop roll them for you. ( and that really shouldn't cost that much)


I wonder how many BTU's are in one of those big round bales?


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## Crofter

Django They weigh around 1200 lbs the same as a face cord of hardwood so would have roughly the same btu content. I will do a bit more checking on the tanks to see how they will nest one inside the other.

Frank


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## django

Crofter,
Somethting to keep in mind, you need a lot more water cap. if you going to use natural draft versus an induced draft.( like 300gal versus 150gal) I figure you"re already are aware of this, just a reminder. Also, I think I posted this link before, but here it is again.http://www.deb-design.com I bought this guys plans when I started out, and didn't use most of it ( square design) but I did use a lot of his peripheral equipment recommendations, specifically his damper/fan assy. it's pretty cool. I also emailed him a few times and he was very prompt answering questions. and I also see he now has a pallett burner plan too!! ( Wonder if he loads it with a forklift?) Let me know how you come out.
Django


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## Gopher

*others units*

wow, I haven't kept up on this post! I've missed some great discussion.

As I sit here in my freezing office of the old house I bought, missing my outdoor boiler at previous house, the question again has been made by me to my wife, "When can we afford to put in a unit?!" (Or really, "When can't we afford to?"

A guy just north of me (he runs a sawmill operation and specialty wood finishing business, just put in two (I think it was two) Garn units. He does all of his building heating (three sperate kilns) domestic water heating office, the works. I had researched garn on the web. Seems more elaborate (is this more efficient I don't know), but also spendy. I have owned a Central Boiler (already installed at home one), and installed my own Heatmor (home two). Now, if I do another one, I, like anyone else, want it to be better each time.

I'll shut up and listen. I don't have the capability to build my own. I am handy enouogh, and have anough assistance to take care of the plumbing and furnace ductwork, but need to buy the unit.

Thank you all for your comments.

Gopher


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## Bill G

Ok I really do not mean to get a cr"" load or trouble stirred up here but I can assure you that a 1200Lb bale of hay will not produce the same heat as 1200lbs of good hardwood. There have been some bio-mass burners built to dry corn with moderate success but they are highly inefficent and extremely smoky. Bio-mass burns slow and at a relatively low temp. If you increase the draft you can increase their efficiency. The only way they can work is if you have a relly low cost source of material. I am not saying that it is not possible but at $50-$120 per ton can burning hay really be cost-effective.

Bill G


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## bwalker

Gopher, you have a link for Garn?


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## Crofter

Bill G. The big bale burner used a forced draft. Enough so that the ash was blown out. The hot combustion gasses were taken through a more or less conventional tube heat exchanger. Yoour right about hay not burning very well compared to stovewood, but the theoretical btu. content of cellulose products like hay or wood, barring the moisture content is pretty much in line with their weight. It was used in a combined pig farm greenhouse compllex and was being funded by some government grants.Around here there are abandoned farms that you can cut for the taking. If you can get some source of rough or unusable wood (or hay) thats when the water boilers really get attractive. Overall they are kind of wood hogs, but it sure is nice to have that safety hazard out in the yard instead of in the house.

Frank


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## django

*WOW!!*

Speaking of bio-mass, hows 14 tons of sand for ya??
http://www.hahsa.com/
Sheesh.


Bill G, BW, etc.... Heres a link to Hydrofire, I believe it is a Central Boiler product, but at a lower price point.
http://www.hydro-fire.com/main.html


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## Bill G

Crofter,

Are you kidding, abandoned farms ? Who owns them and why are they not being farmed. I realize the growing season is short and the winters are harsh but so are some of the best cattle grazing areas in the US.

Bill


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## Crofter

*HAHSA Furnace*

Django: I find that on the above installation interesting. I would like to know more without springing for the $40.00 US to see the plans. Do you know any more about it. I have literally and figuratively been head first in the regular ones doing emergency repairs because of firebox corrosion.

Bill G; yes there are small farms growing up with brush around here. Marginal drainage, and other problems but probably main reason is the old folks are retired and the kids are gone to the cities. Not a lot of money in beef, take a long time to recover the cosst of new fencing. I raise enough to fill my freezer and sell a couple of sides to friends, but it wouldn't pay the bills.

Frank


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## django

Crofter, 
I don't know any more than what the link tells on the HASHA.
I'm not sure I want to.


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## django

*Garn Link*

http://www.dectra.net/garn/
Looks very pricey, but very slick. 2000gal. water capacity!
How's that for a "Heat Flywheel, Crofter?


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## bwalker

It has a natural draft right. If so i dont see how it would be worth a darn. Alst steel construction.


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## django

What stove are you refering to?


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## bwalker

The Garn.


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## django

*Garn*

Ben,
Garn has a powered draft. Or induced if you prefer. It has NO natrual draft. The fan is on, or off with the system closed. If you download their movie. ( It's LOOONG) There is some decent footage of it. The principal behind it is completely different then what we have been talking about so far, With a Garn, you start a new fire every day, and burn it completely, all at one burn cycle. This heats an enormous amont of water, up to 190*@ 3200 gal. This is then an enormous heat sink you pull off from to heat your space. I am guessing that the fire box is relatively small to prevent having more wood than the system can absorb. I did some math and the 2000 gal model, heated up to 190* and cooled down to 140 in 24 hr. uses about 800,000 BTU. That is not enough to heat my leaky old house when it is really cold, but most homes it will. I think it is a really neat burner setup, very efficient comparably. I just can't imagine what one costs. As a side note, don't be too prejudiced against mild steel stoves. If you do a little maint. ( most don't) a steel stove of good design will last many years. Eyolf has had a central boiler stove for 10 years. That's pretty good. But he cleans and oils it. Just like your supposed to. "True" Stainless( like 316, and to a lesser extent 304) has nickel in it and has poor heat transfer. A box made from 316 would "never" corrode", but heat transfer suffers consideraby.
. Even with "stainless" fireboxes, most manufacturers don't warrant their fireboxes past 10 years. There is more that goes on in there than "corrosion" to ruin a firebox.
Have fun'
Django


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## Gopher

*Garn*

Next time I get up to the sawmill, I'll try and remember to bring the digital camera and get some shots of the whole system there. Clyde Samsel has put much time and money into this system (he has had others in the past), so I believe the principals behind the unit are sound. Also, knowing Clyd fairly well, I don't think he would spend the additional dollars if he didn't think it was worth it.

When I purchased my Heatmor (5000sq.ft. capacity) in 1998, the unit cost was around $4000. I ran 1"copper all over in the house and added a few more valves and a diversion around the plenum (for air conditioning purposes), so I had about $5900 into it.

The last time I checked into a Garn (of what I believe would be the unit I may want or need) I thought the price for the boiler unit was somewhere in the vicinity of $7000 (I'd have to check on that one though). It appears to me that one can do it for less, but that the Garn seems a decent buy even at a higher price. So far, I have liked what I have seen from Garn. I think with proper maintenance and care (as django points out), just about any unit can serve a useful and good life.

Gopher


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## django

Pictures, Pictures, Pictures!!!!!!!
I don't know how one would begin to build one yourself. They're freaking HUGE. That ceramic insert alone would be hundreds of dollars. ( Unless you have connections.) Also, I believe they're doing some wild stuff with the draft to get those "aromatic hydrocarbons" to burn nearly completely. (catalytic stuff)Very high temps. Other outdoor burners are dinosaurs compared to this Garn stove. I'm not wild about starting a new fire every time, but that's the "only" way their system would work.


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## bwalker

Django, Your right. Current outdoor wood boiler designs are crude. What they need to do is incorporate some of the new woodburer tech into these outdoor units. Things like catalysts and gas reburners would be nice.


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## Gopher

*Agree*

django, I agree that from what I've seen and used, the Garn unit seems to have the most engineering and physics in mind. No matter what, it is better than paying Alliant for the natural gas every month!

Gopher


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## django

I don't know what you would do to really make an outdoor stove as we know them burn at high effeciencies like the Garn unless you do what Garn does, and that is heat huge amounts of water with ONE burn cycle. ALL THE FUEL AT ONE TIME(I'm not yelling, just want to make sure this point is made) This is absolutely the key to the whole thing. You could go to all the trouble of incorporating all that techy stuff, but unless you use All the fuel at once, when you stop your burn cycle, what is left in the stove smoulders and is therefore very inefficient and dirty. There is no way around this, unless you somehow say you are going to heat the water to a certain temp. and "bleed off" the remaining fuel to somewhere besides the water, and that would be even more wasteful than letting it smoulder until the next burn cycle. So by their very nature, "standard" outdoor boilers, because the store energy in the water, AND the fuel, are very dirty combustors. Garn gets around this with a very simple principle. They don't STORE any energy in the fuel, they use it all. At one time.With this system ALL of the STORED energy is in that HUGE water tank. I apologize if I'm on my soapbox a little bit, but I did a lot of heavy thinking on mine before I made it and get a little carried away when I discuss the topic. The Garn is definitely cool. I'm glad somebody dared to be different.


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## Bill G

My ISP has been down the the better part of a week so I have missed some great discussion. One thing I do not understand is the Alliant energy in Iowa will pay the difference between the cost of a new 80 percent furnance and a high efficiency one. I put a 90 percent furnce in a rental because of that. In Illinois there are no rebates. I am wondering if there are any energy companies that will give assistance to people putting in wood burners. The concept is the same a reduction in energy demand thus lowering the need for more power plants. This allows them to use the same plants but charge a higher price per therm and KW. In the midwest we are experiencing another very mild winter. They are now claiming a shortage of gas and charging more. It is hard to believe their arrogance.

Bill


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## Gopher

*Energy rebate?*

Good question on the rebate for using wood. I am the contract arborist for a western WI electric co-op, so in the near future, I will talk to the director to see what and if there is anything they do. I didn't receive anything when I was a member there, and put in my wood furnace, but I didn't think to ask, either.

I think you may be on to something there.

Gopher


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## django

*Garn Lit.*

Got my Garn Brochure on saturday. YIKES. One the size needed to heat my house is $9500. Uninsulated, no shed. Takes over $500 just to treat the water for corrosion. Made from mild steel.
The thing weighs over 20000 pounds when it's full. By the time you get one delivered, insulated ,ia a building, run all your lines, pumps, etc....
you'll have a very substantial investment. I saw nothing in the literature pertaining to a warranty. Nothing. "Corrosion management is the sole responsibility of the owner" is all it says.
Nice stove. Grossly overpriced.


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## bwalker

10K is a awful lot for a incomplete system. It would take you a very long time to pay back the amount it cost over a OWB with the amount of wood you would save. Also, no warranty on a mild stee system. I would be very leery of that.
Django, Remeber whe we talked about the heat transfer rates of various steels? I just found a chart that lists them. Some grades of stainess are really poor. What about titanium? Corrosion would not be a issue, but cost likely would. I wonder how Ti stacks up heat transfer wise.


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## WRW

Probably not very good heat transfer properties for titanium. It is used as a heat shield on some airplanes.


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## Crofter

*Heat transfer*

Difference in net heat transfer of stainless vs mild steel wont amount to anything because the lesser thickness used will cancell the conductivity factor. Forget about Titanium; it is many times more expensive than stainless and much more difficult to weld. You see it and columbium listed as a minor alloy in stainless steel to reduce grain boundary corrosion in weld zones. Back to the heat transfer. There is almost always a layer of ash and creosote "FUR" on the inside of a boiler and I would guess its R value is a lot greater than that of the metal. Net transfer is the average of the two resistances so the conductivity of the metal is maybe not as important as would appear. I would trade longevity over ADVERTISED efficiency I think.

Frank


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## bwalker

Crofter, Yes, you are probaly right about the creosote/ash limiting heat transfer, bu the differance between 1010 mild steel and 304 stainless is quit abit. Here are the figures. AISI 304 stainless 14.9 W/(m-K), AISI 1010 mild steel 63.9. I dont know how this corresponds with the steel used in furnaces, but it gives you a idea of what you are dealing with.


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## django

I agree with Crofter, ( man, I hate it when that happens) Titanium is a complete pain to weld, fab and machine. "Exotic" metals really are only good for "academic" type discussion. Neat, but impractical for many reasons. I would like to see the firebox on some "stainless" stoves after a few years, one to see how they "resist' corrosion, and two, since they are typically only 1/8" thick, and stainless is a "soft" metal compared to mild steel, how they take the abuse of having 30-40 lb. logs( and more) thrown into them. I know mine takes a pretty good beating. Frank makes a good point about the "coating" on the inside of the firebox also, creosote is a good insulator. And you WILL have this coating in any of these stoves. As to efficiency in general, they all pretty much stink. Anytime you see efficiencies bragged about, read the fine print, it's pretty comical.

Frank, Yes or no, When welding "stainless" steels, especially for a boiler type application, should the welds be annealed??
Django


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## bwalker

> Titanium is a complete pain to weld, fab and machine


 You got that right. I read a story once about a machine shop that had a cooling pump go down or some other malfunction while cutting a piece of Ti. The piece got so hot that it melted right through the mills table and through the concrete floor! Now thats hot.


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## django

http://www.woodheat.org/technology/obmanufacturer.htm

Found this on the web at a site that is very anti- outdoor woodstove. Posting it for what it is worth. Entertainment purposes only. The views expressed are not necessarily those of the poster.
Django


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## Crofter

*Post weld annealing of Stainless*

Django: Stainless welds of the 300 series nominal 18 8 have excellent ductility as welded so there is no gain in that respect (Cracking) If there are any transition welds from stainless to mild steel, annealing is definitely a no. With the 409 so called stainless which is not stainless, ductility is not as good so some preheat and post heat would give some benefit. Be careful to have no unercut or overlap on welds helps. 

Ben: That figure seems high. Just from memory I though mild steel had 1.5 or 2 times the conductivity of stainless. The figure also is likely for the same thickness, but you would most likely only use stainless at about half the thickness of the carbon steel , so I think that would contribute less transfer resistance.

Frank


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## Gopher

*Garn (or should I say "Darn") price*

Django - thanks for getting a current brochure. My God, for something like 4K less I can have a decent unit with a better warranty. I don't care how good Garn is, if they are 60 to 70 % above the others, I won't buy it. That means by the time I got a pad poured, and everything hooked up, I'd have over $11,000 into it. 

No way. I can get the whole thing done for about $7,000 and have a nice system using Heatmor, Central Boiler, etc.

I'll talk to you more after this summer to see if I can get going on another one (we may dump this house and make some good money, so I don't know if I am going to do it at this location).

Gopher


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## django

Yup, I agree. If you don't mind the smoke, and youv'e got plenty of wood, then you don't need that technology. Did you read the link I posted from woodheat.org? This guy supposedly is an "expert" on outdoor stoves. I don't think so. I could tell you all about some "magic stove" that is so much better than what is out there too.... Just don't ask any specific questions.


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## tree_reaper

http://www.freeheatmachine.com/Web Pages/models.html


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## prez1520

I just bought a new heatmor and I wondered if anyone could suggest an efficient system for loading heavy 4 foot logs.


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## bwalker

Cut them smaller?


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## Crofter

I think Ben has the solution. The heavy pieces risk doing damage when they drop in anyway; The last thing you want on one of them suckers is a leak. I have been headfirst in a few of them; stinky job!


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## bwalker

Tree co, Couple of things. The garn isnt a outdoor wood boiler per se. Also quality boiler doesnt smoke that much as long as you match the size of the unit to your hating need and you fill it with seaoned wood twice per day instead of once.
With that said I fill mine once per day, many times with green wood.The only time it smoke bad is when you put a load of logs in that are snow ice covered.
FWIW I think the smoke comments come form the old style boilers without forced air drafts and from the the designs like central boiler that do not use a firebrick liner.


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## IndyIan

Just read the whole thread, lots of good information.
I looked at outdoor boilers and found that they are not for me.

A new 1800 sqft house just doesn't have the heat load to require one.

Most smoke alot especially if burning continuously all day but damped down. Lots of smoke means lots of lost btu's, which means I need to load that much more wood. A guy at http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen.htm measured his output efficiency at 22%... The woodstove we are putting in has an efficiency of 70% so I need less than 1/3 the wood. Check out the rest of the site as well, it has some good information. The same guy added fire brick and a basic secondary combustion chamber and got his measured efficiency to 50%. Why his boiler doesn't come that way from the factory is a mystery to me.

The only wood boiler we seriously considered was the TARM. It's not meant for outdoors but thats a plus since its certified for indoors and actually has to meet some standards of efficiency and safety, alot outdoor ones do not meet any standards. Check out www.tarmusa.com 

Ian


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## bwalker

I havent had any of the issue mentioned in the link and fwiw my boiler will go 24 hours on a fill provided you really pack the wood in it. I think one of the problems with these units is that there are too many crap brands on the market. You reallly have to do your research.


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## Johnboy

*reconsider the Garn*

I've read the posts on outdoor boilers and have spent several months researching them. Obviously all the discussions about too much smoke, inefficiency..etc. have been had and it's doubtful I can change the mind of anyone.

I'm very seriously thinking of buying a Garn unit....Ok, I'm actually going to order one next week once all of the pricing comes in. 

I think some of the earlier dismissing of this unit might have been a bit short-sighted (I don't mean to poke at anyone..just couldn't think of any other word there). I've had a chance to look at and touch one of these units and got to watch it burn. I have to say this is one well engineered unit. The fella who invented this really had it going on. I've been obsessed with heating with wood via a mass storage system. We've looked at a bunch of the high efficiency gasification (secondary burn) systems and have been quite impressed. I love the idea of burning full throttle and storing the heat for later use (the reasons I love this should be obvious). Just think about it, these units can raise 2000 gallons of water by 30 degress with minimal amounts of wood. They are rated to direct vent out the side of the house and you can hold your hand right in front of the exaust without burning it. When I looked at this unit, the exhaust was 100% clear, no smoke!! We have seen units from EKO & HS Tarm and were looking at setting up one of these units with mass storage tank (buried underground) until I saw the Garn. 

I understand the up front cost seems hi (ok, really hi) but there are units in our area that have been running for 20 years. Now...I want to emphasize that I don't mean to matter-of-factly diss the outdoor units that have become popular but I've seen a number of them that have popped up lately and can't help but think, that I'd bet the farm, the business, my Packer tickets..that these units will not be running in 20 years. We have one in our neighborhood that was new last fall and after 3/4 of a winter, this thing looks like it's a hundred years old. Completely soot and creosote covered. This guy is on pace to burn 30 cords to heat his house and small shop and has trouble keeping even moderate water temps. And this is a name-brand unit (mentioned previously in this thread but I won't go there) YIKES!!!

Anyway..I'm convinced that the use of a Garn, with it's mass storage and gasification chamber will cut wood consumption mightily. While I am a world class wood scrounge, and I have quite a bit of wood on my own properties..I don't consider it to be "free". My last year's LP bill was $1,800 and I haven't even started to heat the 1800 sq.ft. addition that we have added to the house. Assuming LP costs will continue to rise and that my of consumption will increase, even a $12,000 install cost doesn't take long to recoup. 

Anyway..again I don't mean to diss anyone but I think there is sufficient efficiency of wood consumption and reason to believe that the lifespan of a Garn will outlast 2, maybe 3 of some of the run-of-the-mill outdoor units I've seen that they might be worth a look. Mass storage is the way to make wood heat work.

I have no $$ affiliation with Garn or any of it's dealers. Just hopelessly obsessed with the concept. Wish me luck.

johnboy


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## bwalker

If he is using 30 cords and doesnt have warm water than he has problems with stove sizing, heat exchange, or transient losses.


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## Mange

All wood furnests smoke in the beginning, till the temps are right.
My furnest has a ceramic tube that gets hot very quick. it pulls down the fire and burn it completely.When burning correct the flames should be bright and slightly blue. 
Smoke temp after furnest 250-300c. Not more.
To high temp then furnest is too slow picking up the heat.
To low, not correct temps and there will be smoke.


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## Johnboy

What brand is that? Sounds like it has the secondary burn that I have mentioned.

thanks.
jb


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## Johnboy

Yes, resale would be an issue to be considered. We are in the position where we have built our property the way we want it, with outbuildings, radiant in-floor heat..etc with the intention of staying here for the long haul. I would never recommend any type of these hi-tech systems to anyone considering reselling their house anytime soon. While I'm sure there are a few that would die for a place like mine, many would be spooked off.


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## pipeboy

hello everyone...i only arrived here after a lengthy google search on outdoor wood boilers. i am looking into getting one probably next year. i already have hot water heat in my home and in fact already have an indoor wood boiler in the basement, but the wife's just not getting into...the dust...smoke smell...and the coolest thing is that when i get the fire died down just a little and she turns on the dryer or bathroom fan, yup you guessed it it sucks the draft back into the house. So outdoor i go. i was thinking of making one like Django did...but it seems like a lot of time to spend on a maybe. I know i could make it work, i am a pipefitter after all, but you know how it is after you build something, you always say "well i wish i would've done it like this or that". so with that being said what do people think of the classic by central boiler?? i know that they claim to be the biggest...but are they the best? how much oversizing do you want to do...i mean eventually i'll have a 200 ft. driveway with snow melt in it (no more shoveling...snow blowing!! yeah!!) plus the house and i already made the side arm heater for the dom. hot water. just lookng for info and new ideas...always looking for a better way!


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## Johnboy

Well it sounds like you're just getting started. There are so many things to consider and no one system is right for everyone. Some people have gobs of excess wood and don't mind shoveling wood in day and night only to see a lot of it go up the smokestack. 

I'd sure encourage you to talk to a lot of people to get different ideas including the use of some sort of heat storage system. This applies even more since you have a lot of hot water heat already. You pbbly run much lower water temps so a storage system would be ideal for you. You can (probably have) read my lengthy post on this subject so there's no use rehashing that. 

Anyway..good luck. Also, you're not too far from the Garn wood hot water system that I got to look at (referenced in my previous post). Only 150 miles. I'd encourage you to take a look. Contact me offline if you want more info.

no financial affiliations. I'm hoping to order mine within a week since I just finally got all of the pricing I needed.

cheers
jb..down the road in Baraboo.


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## bwalker

John, How is restarting a fire everyday any easier than loading the firebox once a day? Can a tarm or simular burn low quality/green wood, trash, used oil, tires,etc like a wood boiler? 
The problems most people run into with excessive wood use and smoke are mainly caused by improper sizing and poor design. Pipeguy, Save you money and by another brand besides a classic.
Tarms and the like are great, but starting a fire everday is a pain as is making sure your fuel wood is very well seasoned and off good qaulity. not to mention the fact of finding a area big enough to place the massive storage tank.
As a side note I wonder how well a tarm would work in -20 weather? Would more than 1 fire per day be needed then?


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## Johnboy

Like I said in my original post, all of the discussions about pollution, smoky yards, angry neighbors and the amount of wood you need to burn have been had and it's unlikely I'll change anyone's mind...evidenced by this last post. 

Everyone's different..there are people, hard to believe, that follow the laws and have consideration to their neighbors and don't (won't) do things like burn tires and used oil. I do understand the internet is a big place and laws vary, but burning tires and used oil is not legal where I live. I am very glad about that. 

Everyone has different access to different amounts and types of wood so no one solution is right for everyone. Everyone has different physical considerations and amount of space for storage and such. For me(FOR ME, at my house, in my situation, with my access to good firewood, with my large existing outbuilding and my system which requires only low-temp water....etc!!!!), there are so many things wrong with low fire stoves that I can't even begin to list them, what's the point? I am just offering a different idea to someone who was looking for different ideas. 

cheers
jb in bboo


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## bwalker

Sad? Hardly where do you think all the tires and used oil you consume go? 
Many of the tires are ground and burnt in cogeneration plants and the used oil is many times burnt in shop style heaters.
John boy, is right there are laws the prohibit you from burning tires in the open, but when done in a furnace It may or may not be legal. Not that I would lose sleep if it where illegal. Much liek I dont lose sleep over driving 5mph over the limit.
In actuallity if done right tires dont smoke any more than woods does. What you do is shut the power off to the boiler which allows the water temp to drop. When the temp is at about 100 degrees you put a layer of dry, soft wood like pine, construction waste, cedar, etc. Then you load the tires which you cut into pieces. Shut the door hit the power switch and viola instant btu's. Since the water temp is so low the tires are combusted before the forced draft fan kicks off and as a result they dont smoke much more than anything else. I do the same thing with used oil excpet that I put the oil into a retechangular shaped steel container with a open top. This allows the oil to burn with out leaking out into the ash pan.


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## bwalker

Does a tarm or like burn at the same efficiancy as a power plant? Not sad, just practicle.


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## bwalker

The perception that tires brun with aloty of smoke is from the practice of brunign them in open air. When burnt in the manner I described they smoke very little and like the article says I would rather get the BTU's out of them than have them go to the landfill.
If I had any tires to burn I would capture a video of it to show you, but I really only need to dispose of tires every few years when my truck and wifes car requires new ones. I dont seek out tires or oil to burn, but if I have it on hand I use it. I also will burn alot of junk wood like Hemlock, Willow and Aspen. I heated my house this fall on Hemlock and other softwoods I got from doing a habitat improvement project on my property. I have a dump load of Lombardi Poplar to pick up next week thats going in the boiler. Crappy wood as far as fuels goes, but its free. Something that cant be said of the $5-600 dollars of unrenewble propane I would burn per month as the alternative.


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## pipeboy

wow you miss out on 4 days of conversation and you really do miss out on a lot here!! Well i don't know about having stockpiles of wood, but after pricing it out i can have 10 cords of red oak delivered in 8 ft. lengths for $750
i currently pay $425 a month for the four coldest months to heat my 1400 sq. ft. home. the guy that built this place wasn't very trusting of the fuel delivery system out here and wanted all electric. i like the feel of radiant heat but am tired of paying polk burnett elec coop half of my mortgage every month. so efficient or not if all i have to do is whip out the stihl, cut and split some wood (with my wood splitter that i made my self!)...i guess i'd rather have the money and get some excercise cutting and stacking!! even if i did burn all 10 cords in 5-6 months it would still only take me 5-6 years to pay myself back...i don't think that's too shabby!

so why not the classic?? that is the one that i was leaning toward...i like the fact that the on that i eventually would need has 3 take offs...1 for house 1 for garage and shed and 1 for the snow melt system that i am going to put in when i can afford to pour a driveway(hate class 5) plus i have a dealer right here in somerset!! 

alright and just to set the record straight on powerplant efficiency!!! as i am a pipefitter by trade i have spent my fair share of time in power plants and refineries and believe you me after you get done working in these places it makes you wonder why electricity/gas is so cheap!!! these companies throw more material away than i could ever dream of using...it's sad really.


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## bwalker

Classics have a less the great reoutation as far as quality goes. When i was making my buying decision a few years ago more than a few people steered me away from them. BTW go with a stainless steel stove, no matter what any of the salesman tell you. The mild steel furnaces rust out.
BTW I bout a heatmore, because it was made with a decent grade of stainless. had the best warranty in the business, and was a semi closed sytem so adding water perodicly is not needed.


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## ray benson

Most of the information I ran across was 4 to 7 years old. Why? In 2001 out of 281 million tires taken out of use, 115 million were burned . About 1/2 were burned in cement plant kilns. The tires are burned at very high temps to destroy the toxic chemicals in tires. They also utilize secondary burners, exhaust scrubbers and baghouse filtering systems to further reduce pollutants. Could not find any info that would lead me to believe someone could safely burn tires in an outdoor wood furnace designed for home or small building heating. 
Ray


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## bwalker

> Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as "fuel thinner", ie added to


 
Dan, if the baove is any indication of the qaulity of info over at Woodheat.org, I would take what the say there with ahuge grain of salt. The above is absolutley false. Heatmore actually sells a waste oil add on type burner for their wood boilers. Just about every auto repair shop, trucking company and logging company up here has a waste oile burner in their shop.

BTW I aslo found the burnign trash piece laughable. Obviously the author isnt aware of the plethora of nasty chemicals found in wood.


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## bwalker

Yes, that site is pretty biased and there info for the most part is very limited and outdated in regards to outside woodboilers.
BTW I took some pics of mine in use the other day. As soon as I download them I will post them to let every one see the relative amount of smoke or lack of they put out.


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## bwalker

Here are the pics I promised. The first one is of the furnace on cycle. By on cycle I mean that the forced draft blower is on and the fire is going full tilt. The next is after than fan has shut off and the boiler isnt getting any air. The third is after I stoked it up with, wet, semi rotted, and moldy maple, yellow birch and red oak. Its during this time that the furnace smokes the most. Most of the smoke is actually water vapor being boiled out of the wood and from the ice/snow frozen to it.
BTW The reason the wood I burnt this day is so nasty is because I made the mistake of leaving a tarp over it all summer. This wood was the remains of the stuff I cut during the fall of 03. I am not kidding in my description of this wood either. Alot off it had these cool looking mushrooms growing on it. Try bringing that stuff in your house to burn in your insert or try firing up a tarm with it,lol.


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## ray benson

Ben, what sized wood and how big a load does your furnace take? One of the website pics showed a forklift loading the furnace.
Ray


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## bwalker

I usually cut the wood into 24" rounds. Sometimes less depending on the size. I rarely split it unless I cant lift it.
As for what it takes to fill one. See the green wheelbarrow in one of the pics? It takes about 1 1/4-1 3/4 wheel barrow loads to fill it. Sometimes less and if its really cold(-30) it will take 2 loads per 24 hour period. It also depends on the quality And size of the wood. if you through barley liftable chunks of oak or maple in it might only take two or three pieces.


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## ray benson

I take it you rarely have to restart a fire. Just keep adding. I like idea of limited splitting. We probably spend as much time splitting at home as we do cutting. Plus the extra handling.


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## bwalker

I start the fire in October and it doesnt go out untill April.


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## bwalker

I doubt it, Dan. It doesnt get real cold here like it does in MN, but we do usually have snow on the ground from November to May. Like I said propane would cost me between 5 and $600 per month. I can get a winters worth of wood delivered for under quit a bit under $500 dropped in my yard. I cut all mine myself though, although when you figure the wear and tear on my vehicle, fuel for my truck and skidder, it doesnt save much over buying it.


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## Johnboy

Underground piping ideas or recomendations?? Man-o-man...I'm getting prices for pre-made/pre-insulated underground pipes. The pipe alone is going to cost a full year's propane bill. I need some at 1-1/4" and some 1". 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
jb in bboo


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## bwalker

The pipe is expensive, but dont try to cut corners on it. I went with the insul seal type pipe, which is bascily a 4" pvc pipe surronded by 8-10" of foam insulation and encased in heavy plastic.
Many of the effiancy issues with wood boilers results from improper installations.


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## Johnboy

So did you still insulate the individual pipes within the insul-seal piping? Seems you'd want to wrap at least the supply to prevent the return from sapping it. 

I need some 1-1/4 & some 1" pipe. Any ideas how much yours cost to install?

I'm also still not clear..is this stuff flexible or do you need elbows and such?

thx.
jb


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## bwalker

Both 1 1/4 pipes run inside the insul seal pipe. The insul seal is rigid so you do need elbows and such. As for cost of install, you have to figure you are goping to need a circ pump(oversize it), a heat exchanger(oversize it as well), some 1 1/4 pex pipe, misc fittings and supplies and your insulseal or the like. Depending on how far a way you plan to put your boiler I would think $1k would be a ballpark figure


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## Johnboy

Do you recall the price of the insul-seal pipe per foot? $1k would be a dream compared to the pricing I'm getting on pre-made piping. I'm going about 140 ft with the 1-1/4, then teeing off to the house(30 ft) and onto the Garage (70 ft). My pumps and such have already been sized by a pro (as has the pipe). 

Doesn't seem to be any readily available pricing available on the net so I'llhave to chase down a dealer.

thanks again.
jb


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## bwalker

If i recall it was around $75 per 10' section. You better go with the largest diameter insul seal or simular you can get because you are going to lose a ton of heat with 24" of piping.


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## pipeboy

i was planning on getting 6" pvc at $2.75 per foot and adding two layers of 1" armaflex closed cell insulation ( $4 /foot) around my 1" pex ($1.25 foot) and then drilling holes every 3-4 feet in the top of the pvc to squirt in the great stuff expanding foam to further insulate inside. i figure it should run about....8-9 bucks a foot...not bad it sure beats the $12 per foot i got quoted on for the ecoflex system. and they'll only sell it to me in 100 or 500 ft rolls...and needless to say i'm about 140' from the house!!! i'm not exactly sure if it'll work...but that's what i'm going to try. so has anyone heard of the northwood outdoor boiler? i was just curious cause i have a freind that has one an he said it's kind of a father son shop up in NE corner of MN. he likes his and says it works great...it looked to me to be an internally round boiler styled after the classic...but it's priced about 2-3k less!


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## pipeboy

it's northland outdoor boilers not northwood!! sorry www.nowf.com


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## bwalker

In most cases you pay for what you get. 
I would also advise against trying a do it yourself insulation job like that. The plumber that tied mine into my existing boiler relayed several horror stories of do yourself insulation jubs and their effect on efficiancy.


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## Newfie

pipeboy said:


> i figure it should run about....8-9 bucks a foot...not bad it sure beats the $12 per foot i got quoted on for the ecoflex system. i'm not exactly sure if it'll work...but that's what i'm going to try.




Sounds like a real bargain if you're not even sure it will work or not.


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## pipeboy

come on boys have a little faith....besides, being a pipefitter, beleive me plumbers aren't the sharpest tools in the shed if you know what i mean!! i just saw on a website someone is making pex wrapped in 2 layers of that 1/4" thick reflective bubble wrap foam and run through some 4" flex drainaige tube...yeah...like you wouldn't have to mow the grass where than stuff runs out to the boiler all year!!!


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## Johnboy

$12 a foot for Ecoflex!!!?!?!?!? I'm getting quoted $20 for dual 1" and $25 for dual 1.25". Where are you getting the pricing???? Is that price for single or dual???

As for your homemade solution, I might suggest looking at standard black non-perforated drain tile available around here for under 15-CENTS a foot. It's more flexible...I mean it IS flexible. You'll have a bit of money in pvc connections if you go the pvc route so don't forget that when pricing. I don't really know of any advantages to using pvc over drain tile. If I could get ecoflex for $12 I'd do that.

After telling my suppliers that the total cost of my system was getting way too high they came up with the solution of using the drain tile and the closed-cell insulation. They suggest running each of the two lines in their own insulated drain tile. Then burying it as deep as possible in a 2-foot wide trench. Backfill is just enough to cover the pipes with about an inch or two of dirt. Then rip a bunch of 2" styrofoam sheets to 2-foot wide and lay in the trench over the pipes and then backfill that. They were very adamant(SP?) not to lay the styro right on or around the pipes since boiler temp water will disintegrate the styro. 

If I go ahead with my install (still very much up in the air) that will be the method I use. 

Good luck
jb


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## ghitch75

i can sell you a duel 1" for $10.50 a foot best stuff on the market 0 heat loss in a 150ft...don't use the styrofoam unless you can make it water tight in about 3 years you'll be digging it up and replacing it and you'll do nothing but heat the ground....you can lay this right on top of the ground with no loss....


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## ghitch75

here is what i sell comes up to 550ft rolls or can gut what ever you need and i sell everything you need to hook up your stove coils,valves ,pumps,ect....


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## bwalker

I have a real hard time believeing that there will be zero heat loss with the pipe pictured. I use the insul sel pipe which is the same idea, but bigger in diameter and I get some heat loss bewteen the boiler and the house. I am now where near 100" away. I however should have a bigger circ pump.


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## ghitch75

i have it laying on the ground just for people who can beleive it either and thermometers in both supply and return lines at the stove and in the house and both read the same in 150ft....and i don't put them in like every else does i'v been in HVAC and plumping and boiler work for 21 years and i'm a jorneyman steam and pipefitter local 136....i'm in the process of building a stove that is 90% efficient and all the stoves on the market today might 55% at the top(per pound of wood burn't to btu out put) and will have little to no smoke evn on shut down and fire up ....i see you have a heatmore has the ager got stuck in it yet?......man those are fun to get looose i went on a service call the other day on one had to put my 3ft pipe wrench on it to get it loose and replace the aqua stat...


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## ghitch75

btw the insul sel pipe is not even close to the same as this pipe the pipe is made in denmark and it is made to be put in permfrost which is froozen year around it for running hot and cold water from building to building


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## bwalker

What is the R value? Judging by the physical size and the type of material(appears the same as insulseal) I would have a hard to believing it would be better than insul seal.
My auger has never stuck and I really dont see how one could get it stuck.
BTW do you plan on mareketing these stoves your building or is it just for your personal use.


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## pipeboy

ghitch75 said:


> i've been in HVAC and plumping and boiler work for 21 years and i'm a jorneyman steam and pipefitter local 136....i'm in the process of building a stove that is 90% efficient ...



yeah baby.... leave it to a pipefitter...that's what i always say!! hello there my fellow ua brother st. paul local 455 here (even though i live in WI) i've seen the stuff that you are talking about...only i put it underground below the streets of st paul for district energy. it is made in denmark only the stuff i had was like sch. 20 carbon and anywhere from 4-6 in. in dia. it's fun to weld sch. 40 mains to the sch. 20 take offs!!! in the ditch...in the winter...

anyway $10.80 seems like a decent price how do you get it here?? a 150 ft. roll of that junk has got to be just gangly!! is it stiff and hard to unroll? does it have the oxygen barrier pex for heating lines. since it sounds like you do a lot more heating than i do...i'm in more of a commercial air conditioning shop right now... what do you treat the water with?? i know it's not necesary to have freeze protection (glycol) but isn't it just easier? 
man i am just all smiles over this...i knew i couldn't be the only pipefitter interested in this stuff...i mean it's almost like a creed to improve upon things.

can't wait to catch a reply!!


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## pipeboy

oh and by the way...not that were not all drooling over this other stuff now...but i found the local central boiler dealer in town was selling the eco flex for 12 bucks per foot, but like i said only in 100 or 500ft. rolls. if i'm 140 feet from the house i feel a little left out!! so ghitch aside from the silverbullet stove that your going to build what stove on the market do you currently recomend...if any. i haven't found a single one that i really love...they all have things that i don't like! like an auger on a heatmore or the square box on a central( although that's what i'm leaning toward). sometimes i wish i was still working in the refinery and could scratch up some sch 40 48" dia. pipe to use as a fire box and weld the water tank around it...sounds like a good weeklong project!


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## ghitch75

bwalker it has an r-value of r-45 and yes i'll be marketing these stoves i'm building.....

pipeboy we can sell you any lenght of pipe you want from 1ft to 550ft any size you want the stove i'm selling know is crown royal it has an ash pan,cast iron shaker grates and is made of 409 stainless steel..it will burn wood ,coal, whole corn cob or about anything you can through in it( sold one to a guy that has a tractor junk yard and he cuts up old tires and burns in it with wood)very stout stove me and a buddy of mine have tryed to melt one down with coal and we did hurt it a bit

here is where you can get the spec's on it this is where we get them from

www.northlanddistrib.com

i would sell you one but your out of our area and as far as anti-freeze goes with your water to air coil in your furnace when it is running and the stove is out no chance of it freezing

pm me your zip and i'll see what shipping would


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## bwalker

R-45 is pretty impressive. Whats the brandname?
Also I am very interested in your design. Do you have any info available that I could look over?


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## bwalker

BTW I dont run any AF in my system. The propane boiler inside the house works as a back up of the fire went out, which it never does.


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## BlackSmith

ghitch75, when you say this stove is stainless does this mean the water never comes in contact with regular carbon steel? I'm looking for a stove just to heat my pool.


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## Crofter

Can 409 really be referred to as stainless like the 18/8 steels such as 304 or 316. Snow machine mufflers are one item made from 409. It does have greater resistance to exhaust gas corrosion but still rusts quite readily.


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## pipeboy

i'm not sure on the brand name but here are a couple of info sites on the stuff he's talking about. www.logstor.com and www.urecon.com 
the stuff looks pretty cool...i also found sort of the same thing from ryan companies in minneapolis...have no idea what it costs but it's called rhino flex! happy hunting or just do a google search on preinsulated pex...whole bunches of em' have to find a distributor near you though in order to get pricing! chat at ya later 

matt


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## Rabbitdog

For all who are interested in Pacific Western stoves - BEWARE!
I bought one in 2001. I thought it was the best investment I ever made, until Feb. 2005 when it started to leak. Not a major problem at first but it quickly got worse. Since it came with a 30 year warranty against leaks, I simply called the dealer to get info on repairs. He informed me that the company has changed hands and the new company will not honor the warranty. Furthermore, even a major tear down and reweld will likely not solve the problem. Apparently, I'm not alone but am having trouble getting contact info for other suckers, ahh, I mean customers. The really bad part is that I even paid an additional $800 for a stainless unit.


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## pipeboy

i had thought that pacific western went belly up but they just swapped hands eh?? well my advice to you would be to go to your local welding supply store and take a look at all of the business cards at the entrance. find one that say's "portable welding" and "stainless" on it. give em a call and ask for pricing...i could almost bet you that if you describe what the problem is and tell them where the leak is you could get it fixed with less headaches than dealing with the dealership...sounds like yoiu can forget about the warranty dude...sorry!


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## Crofter

Pipeboy, I have been head first in quite a few doing welding repairs. I saw most of the erosion fro the fire side, not the water side. It is often very general and when the leak starts the metal is pretty thin and difficut to weld where it is. A lot of makers advertise as " stainless " the alloy 409. It is more resistant to firebox corrosion than straight carbon steel but nowhere NEAR as is true stainless steels in the 300 series which is also at least 10 times more expensive per pound and has also increased production costs. Some units combine carbon and stainless steels and where they meet there has been problems due to the thermal expansion rates being nearly double for stainless and resulting in repeated mechanical stresses with every temperature cycle. Sometimes trying to do a repair on a poor design is throwing good money after bad. They are a big investment. Dont believe much of what any manufacturer tells you. Be very suspicious of testimonials too.


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## ray benson

My 1988 dodge p/u has a stainless steel exhaust. It is magnetic so I assumed it is a 409 type. The truck is and has been driven just about every day. Our area uses a lot of salt in the winter on the roads.The truck gets a lot of short trips and the exhaust pipe is still solid as new. The muffler rotted out, and the pipe clamps rotted off the pipe several times. So the pipe is pretty amazing. Do you think it is 409 stainless?


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## pipeboy

actually auto makers use their own special blend of alloys in many different things. i took a metalurgy class going through school and learned that the blend of metals that automobile manufacturers use is pretty expansive nowadays...i mean we're talking 7-10 metals blended together to make one. things like carbon, iron, copper, alumininum, robinium(spelling might be off, but it's the kinda prassy looking coating on cheap bolts) it's unreal some of the mix lists that they come up with for strength or weight. as far as these stoves go i think i'm sold on a simple carbon unit like the classic from central boiler. i don't think i like the square design(more welds) but it seems the simplest. and i am a huge proponant of K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) after having seen some of the stainless that came out of the heat exchangers at the refidery i worked at...stainless just isn't made for heat. we took them out and dropped them on the ground with the crane and they shattered like glass under their own weight!! if i hadn't seen it with my own eyes...never wouldv'e beleived it. and beleive me i am a stainless steel lover...bolts for outdoor use, angle and plate for a ladder i made for my pontoon, but it's just not ment for extreme heat or tempurature differences!


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## Crofter

Ray, the original exhausts on a lot of equipment are often an alloy similar to 409. They do last at least twice as long as replacement ones which usually are just straight carbon steel. Aftermarket pipes of true stainless such as 304 are available that wiithstand corrosion even better, but cracking can be a problem. I talked for quite a while to a Mennonite fellow at a farm trade show, who was showing off a wood boiler model they made. Straight carbon steel, but considerable thicker than standard for the firebox area. It used a grate system and ash pan, so any condensation / creosote that happens at times, ran down and did not pool in the bottom of the firebox. It looked strong and simple.


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## pipeboy

crofter, i've been thinking about this an awful lot...probably too much for my wife, but i would think a sch. 40 48"dia. piece of pipe would make one hell of a fire box...almost bulletproof. just think it would be round...a feature that i would like, 5/8" thick, and if you really wanted to get fancy, you could reproduce central's ripple top (to add surface area to aid in heat exchange) just by cutting and welding in plate in the top. i like the idea of putting in a water filled baffle in the back and exiting through the rear for exhaust rather than the top. i can't beleive that some of these manufacturers weld in these chincy looking tube steel heat exchangers in the top of the fire box. i mean i would think that you are just begging for trouble with those welds. if i only had the time. long on dreams short on equipment and time...isn't that always the way??


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## bwalker

> My 1988 dodge p/u has a stainless steel exhaust. It is magnetic so I assumed it is a 409 type.


 Your very lucky. Thge sytem on my 2001 dodge is shot already. the tail pipe after the muffler has already rotted off and required welding to re attch. The rest of the sytem isnt any better and willl need replacing before next winter.

Also keep in mind that increasing your wall thickness decrease your heat transfer rate. From what I have seen and people I have talked to stainless wins hands down. off course stainless is no replacement for a good design. The round designs tend to have te pooling problems that Crofter mentioned and typicaly rot out from the botom from ash, and cresote holding in moisture. The heatmore I have is designed in a way that the bottom of the fire box doesnt hold any water. Basiclly the botom is a fire brick plkatform with a cast iron grate in the bottom for ash removal. The wallsand the roof of the box are the only parts that hold water. Ill see if I can post some pics to clarify tommorow.


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## Crofter

Ben, regarding the heat transfer with the added thickness. Look up the heat transfer rates for stainless steel vs carbon steel. 
The heat is not lost, only delayed, unless your stack temperature is going too high for lack of adequate dissipation surface area. Tre stainless stands up to the very corrosive drooling that so readily occurs in this type burner esp when burning green wet wood. Stainless has its tradeoffs though in cost, difficuty in manufacturing and difficulty with cracking where it transitions to any carbon steel. For someone contemplating making a unit themselves, carbon steel should not be dismissed especially if you can " find " a lot of the materials. Go thicker and make a larger water capacity so boiloff is not so critical for when your fire overshoots after shutdown. I have thought about more firebrick for better combustion, but wondered whether there was any risk of corrosive condensate building and being held behind it and actually accellerating corrosion rather than eliminating it. That is one aspect I don't remember seeing addressed.


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## bwalker

Frank, I believe in most cases the satinlessstoves use a thinner gauge material to offset the loses you mentioned. As for the issue with fire brick that you pointed out. on my stove the area behind the brick doesnt have water behind it. The firebrick is used only to line the bottom of the firebox and just high enough to keep coals from contacting the boilers sides. In other words the boiler itself is boult above and around the firebox...if that makes any sense. As far as poor weld adhesion between stainless and non stainless pieces. The stove I have is all stainless so thats not a issue. One other thing unique about the design of the stoive I have is the fact that it is a semi closed sytem. It actually runs at a slightly positive pressure by using a expansion bladder and a weighted pop off valve. Its not open to the atmosphere so water loss and oxygen entering the sytem isnt a issue which helps with corrosion. I havent put any water in it since I filled it.


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## Crofter

Ben that has some real good advantages. Where the fire bed is directly in contact with the180 deg water jacket it chills the fire and condenses moisture. Also more tendency to overshoot. It is those little things that all add together to make the difference between a good unit and a disaster; expensive disaster at that too.


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## Mange

Here is my system. The furnest is in the garage and 25 meters pipe in to 2x750 liter acc. tanks in the basement.

I have the one in the middle 40kw.


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## pipeboy

wow...how many times a day do you have to load that thing mange?? it seems to me that you've subscribed to the theory of complete combustion and storing the heat that's given off. i can't speak for anyone else, but i want to pack that sucker solid with wood and walk away for a min. of 12-14 hours!! i just can't see myself starting a new fire on a regular basis. that's kind of what i have now...i've got a jensen indoor boiler that i am going to get rid of in order not to have to haul in wood and smoke out my basement trying establish a draft.


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## Mange

I set a fire, fill it 2 times, then it lasts for min. 30 hours.


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## Mange

The pint to this is to burn as good as possible, a short time, It takes 3 hours, almost every time, no smoke unless something goes wrong.
I am happy with it in summer I make a fire once a week, now in winter once a day if it is cold.
I can live with that.


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## pipeboy

it just looks like a tiny unit...how small do you have to split the wood....i would also imagine that it would have to be really dry wood.


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## Mange

I have the 55cm lengths wood, and they are splitted if they are more than 13 cm diameter, they get heavy otherwise.

Moisture is rekomended to be around 15-30%, really dry wood is about 13%

I will tell you boys some things I learned on the way.
I built this system myself. Pipes, Power, chimny, Hydraulic splitter, I did it all.
The time I spent studying for this and bying stuff was about 2 years

The higher temp the better it burns.
When the temps are optimat, all is burned, and a small amount of ashes, smoke temp about 275 degrees, as there is a flame under the "furnest" It burnes 2 times, one time konventionally, one time as gas (1750) degrees.
The flame should be close to blue, ore Blue/yellow.
NEVER any smoke!!!
Smoke indicate something is wrong.


I think i bored you enough now!!!


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## Crofter

Mange, you learned it well. You can take that to the Bank!


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## Johnboy

Mange, do you then have a storage system? Just curious if you could describe briefly the size of your storage.

thanks
jb


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## timberdog

*updated info*

Hello, this has been interesting to say the least. Quite some reading from start to finish. I would like to clarify some inaccurate info at the beginning of the thread.
I have read a lot of references to the Classic. I have been operating a Classic for over six years. I heat three houses, a pool, and a shop with one CL7260. The 30X40 door makes it very easy to load and clean. It is 100% original equipment since the day I bought it.
The Classic warranty compared to the Heatmor is by far superior. First, the pro-rated part of the corrosion coverage covers a higher percentage for a longer period. Second, The $800 dollar shipping is ridiculous, Central boiler will pick up the unit and you are only responsible for return freight, usually less than $350. The door and welds are warrantied for twenty five years. If stainless is so great why is the Heatmore warranty only ten years total. Classics can be field serviced by dealers without voiding the warranty, but depending on field inspection, they may want to repair it at the factory so the real cause of failure may be determined. Usually this is found to be neglect of common sense maintenance, or burning garbage, or waste oil. Third continual water loss is a minimum because of the still vent design, most owners add very little if any water once a year. The chemicals are very inexpensive probably comparable to changing an anode rod. Any wood combustion with a shut down mode will will produce acid which will embed itself in the creosote in every stove. The ashtrol is just common sense to make any stove last as long as possible, by neutralizing acidity. Lastly, for now, there are independent lab test performed by Wornok Hersey that prove the Classic firebox to deliver more Btu's per pound of wood than the other top five leading outdoor wood furnaces. 25 - 47% More.
So in short simple is better, easier to load, less parts, easier to clean and more efficient. Oh, the door solenoid is Grainger Part# 4x240. Good day


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## bwalker

The more efficancy claim is highly questionable IMO as none of these wood boilers can be called anything remotely close to efficiant. As for the warranty you only need it if you have a classic! They probaly enjoy the reputation of being the lowest quality in the industry from the sives I have seen.


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## bwalker

I would love more info on Ghitch75's stove design....hint hint.


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## Mange

bwalker said:


> The more efficancy claim is highly questionable IMO as none of these wood boilers can be called anything remotely close to efficiant. As for the warranty you only need it if you have a classic! They probaly enjoy the reputation of being the lowest quality in the industry from the sives I have seen.



Does this apply to the furnest I posted?
If it does, Please let me know, since this is the best availeble here regarding efficancy.


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## Mange

I do not understand the question, Johnboy.
Do you mean wood storage, or heat?
The wood i have stapled outside with a so so cover. I do not want it too dry, since I will want quite a bit of moisture in the wood. I will add water if it is too dry. This sounds weird I know, I thought so too. If you have High temps in the flame with too little oxygen The temp will go down a bit and smoke appears. The best way to get in more oxygen is water, I tried a bit of everything. 

If you bean Heat, I have the acc. tanks in the basement, one with hot water boiler in, and one just for acc.
Thease work as battery's, I charge the tanks and take heat from them long after the boiler is out.
We have temps here down to -30 degrees rarly, but still. i have never had to set more than one fire a day, in averege every 3:d day.

Here is some pics of the system installed.


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## Johnboy

It was a heat storage question. I'm a bit obsessed with this idea and plan to order my system soon. It will have 2000 us gallon storage. This should be more than enough to heat my 3 buildings.

Thanks
jb


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## Mange

That is a lot of water to heat!!

There is other way's you know......


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## Crofter

Mange what material is your holding tanks made of?


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## Johnboy

Well every application is different. I'm heating a 1900 sqft garage, a large barn and our house which is about 4000 sqft.

What is your storage capacity and how much are you heating? My goal is to burn hot and complete and store heat.

I know not all agree on this strategy but my minds pretty much made up that this is best for me.

jb


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## pipeboy

holy smokes.... 2000 gal. wow i would imagine quite a heat loss on 2000 gal. just rememember the more heat you have the more heat you have to lose!!


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## pipeboy

i would tend to think that you would just lose it slower!


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## pipeboy

are you planning to burn with a typical outdoor unit or are you going with a tarm or a garn...or any of these other fancy gasification models??


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## pipeboy

i don't know anymore i'm thinkin that i'm going to just get me a classic and be done with it...it seems silly to me that i'm arguing with myself for $1000. i'm thinking that i might take my old electric water heater and turn it into a storage tank and not hook up the electrical on it. that will bring my grand total of gallons to 400. i'm thinking that that should be well more than enough for me.


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## Crofter

The heat storage tank is inside Mange's house so where is the heat loss?


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## bwalker

With a outdoor boiler less water storage is more.


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## pipeboy

i thought he said that it was in his garage...but either way even your hot water heater turns on every now and the even if you don't use it due to heat loss.


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## Mange

There is no heat lost to speak of. If I load up the tanks to 80 degrees, and shut the valves (I tested this), I can turn on the valves after 2 weeks with 73 degrees. I have to put radiators and a stove In the basement, I was counting on some heat lost but I got cheated on that....
The stove I use When there is power brakes. I circulates fine without pumps, since I have a tall house, But we use the stove to cook, and a mange without Coffey for more than a few hours is no pretty site

The tanks are isolated with a special mixed foam, 13 cm thick, and dressed with a very thin coat of aluminum.
If air can not move, It can not cool. That is the basic idea of isolation.

The important thing to me was that I would not spend too much time fiddling with the furnest. I do not mind going out there 2-3 times every other day.

My Naibur came here one night and asked what I thought he would do with his system.
After a bit calculating and reasoning, We ordered a furnest to put in front of his existing furnest. This has a 200 liter wood volume, and is filled once a day.
Fire is never put out unless he want to do some maintenance, clean out aches etc.
It is the same as mine But stores the wood instead of heat.
It is not well isolated either, but the heat goes strait up in his house so it does not matter.


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## Johnboy

You can insulate a tank pretty well and mass like that is petty difficult to cool down. I'm planning on buying a Garn. I figure if I raise that much water to high temp I can heat my buildings for more than 24 hours on one burn. You can go back up this thread a ways to my first posts to see the hackles that can be raised on this subject so I won't drone on again about that. 

My buddy buried a 2400 gallon tank from a milk truck which was already insulated but he wrapped it in a double layer of insul-tarp scavenged off of a slab job. Works great. He had the limitation of not being able to use any type of outdoor boiler since he's right downtown and didn't have much room anyway but he did have some garage space so he hammered out his garage floor (very very old slab needed replacing anyway) and backhoed out and dropped her right in there and re-poured the slab. Now when he burns the relativeley small boiler with secondary burn chamber, and the house quits calling for heat, instead of smoldering the fire, it keeps burning hot and dumps the hot water into the tank. He's gone for long periods during the day so he comes home to hot water.

Anyway pipeboy, like I mentioned in my previous post, you could take a quick run down the I to see a Garn in action near Sparta. Might not be right for you but looking never hurt anyone. 

Cheers
jb


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## Mange

Crofter said:


> Mange what material is your holding tanks made of?


I am sorry, I missed this Crofter.

3mm regular furnest iron, welded not cast. I the isolation I think I mentioned.


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## Mange

This is almost 10000 liters!!!!!!!
That is a lot.
Afreind of mine has a house built of grey stones from the year 1687, he has 385 meters square, I have no idea how many feet that is, but it is more then 2,5 homes here. He has the same system as I do, and 3000 liters acc.
It never goes bellow 45 degrees, and He never burn everyday, not often more than 3 hours.


I hope you have done some calcylation off this.

Here we concidder 1000 liters is good up to 100 meters square, in this climate. Sort of a hip shot.
I would say 10000 liters would cover at the least 1000 meters square! (in the same climate as here.)


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## Mange

How much wood does he consume?
how much time and effort does he put in?
How much heatlost is there? did he insulate all around the tank? I f so What holdes it Up?

Oops I think I have a brainfart again........

Never mind.


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## timberdog

*list of sites*

Ben W. I would like to view a list of the sites in reference to the Classic.

Testing from Wornok Hersey shows Classic emissions of 6.2gph of particulate emissions. That is well under the EPA standard of 7.5gph for a new generation indoor airtight wood stove. 

Also while attending a stainless steel workshop the issue of which alloy is best suited for this application came up. 409 titanium enhanced was most preferred by the stainless supplier for added corrosion resistance, with excellent formability, heat transfer, and expansion characteristics. The Classic is available in both mild and 409.

While doing my homework I toured Central Boiler, Wood master, and Heatmor manufacturing facilities. They are all within 90 miles of each other. I would suggest that anyone who really wants to know the difference, do the same. What is tested and documented by independent labs proves a lot more to me then hearsay and speculation about design. BTW most bad experiences with any of these units will generally prove to be, improper installation (cheaply installed) , or careless use and lack of maintenance of the operator. Thanks TD.


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## timberdog

Ghitch75, Iwould also like the brand name of the pipe you carry. Is it flexible or rigid, by the sound of it, it comes in rolls. Thanks, T.D.


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## ghitch75

pipe boy you won't like shoveling out your ashs out of the classic and if you every want to burn coal you can't no grates and as far as having a 2000 gallon tank for storge you well get nothing done than putting wood in it.....the guy down the road from me has one i put in a 7300 it hold 200 gallons and he is heating 2800sft house and a 3800sft barn and his water heater and he is getting 36 hour burns at 10 degress and over 48 hours if it's in the 30's and above and in the summer he burns over 7 days to heat he hot water.....as far as installs go i have seen how everyone puts them in (around here anyway) no one uses zone vavles to to control the water going to there units(water heat furance ,boiler ect..) all of the do a loop hook up going from one unit to the other and the can't use it in the summer to heat the hot water and run the A/C at the same time and in the winter when it's running on off cycle there still pulling btu's from the air to water coil and it over shoots the temp in the house no control so you open the front door or a window to cool the house down...my hook everything is controled to get the longest burn possable with least amont of wood...the water heat hook the other guys do is very dangerous they let the tank get to 180 degress (or what ever the boiler is set at) and use a mixing vavle to temper the water down coming out and in hard water areas the vavle will stick and someone will loose some hide off the hands or fingers...i use a braze plate heat exchanger and a pump and augastat and then you st the temp as you like 110, 120, 130...ect and that all the hotter the tank gets ...back to the classic all the ashs lay in the bottom on the steel and ashs are very acidit and if you don't keep the cleaned out it will eat the steel out and you have to let your fire go out to clean it out..with grates and a ash pan or ager you sould never have to let your fire go out.....

bwalker i'll post when i have time have to go put one in today and i'll post it on wensday been very busy...


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## ghitch75

come in 550ft rolls and it will bend a 3ft radius logstore in the brand name and it's made in demark


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## timberdog

Ghitch, an electric three way zone valve is the easy way to stop overshooting problems when hooked into the loop like you described. This also allows domestic water heat in the summer if you like, and you can run your a/c too. Leaving the valve maunually opened in the winter will keep all of the ductwork warm and elimnate cold drafts each time the furnace cycles. It also usually results in warmer floors which most customers feel is an added benifit. Also the furnace will cycle less often, which uses less electricity. This can work for the forced air and domestic water as well. Hard water areas don't like brazed plate exchangers because of the super tight tolerance. They work great with clean or soft water, which will also prevent the anit-scald valves from sticking. Also the valve should be rated with the ansi 1016 and 1017 source point approval for an anti-scald device. Lesser mixers will always give highly fluctuating temperatures.The mixing valve also doesn't use electricity.
As for cleaning ashes, I only start one fire in my box per year. Once a month clean out with a shovel takes less than ten to fifteen minutes and I have a commercial size stove, burn mostly junk wood. Heating more than six thousand square feet for four buildings. Of these two are very old and poorly insulated. Also I keep my 10,000 gallon outdoor pool heated. My heat load is more than average. Ash clean out is minimal. I have installed over 250 Classics. The dealer has a repurchase guarentee and he hasn't bought one back yet. 
My personl thought of coal. I burn wood, its free, renewable, and adds no net increase in greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere. T.D.


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## ghitch75

is this what your talking about?...i'v put in at last count 236 and over a 1000 gas/oil boiler systems and count less forced air systems....been in the HVAC game for 21 years


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## timberdog

Ghitch, that is exactly what I was referring too with the three way zone valve. There are also manual valves for the same purpose. Is that one of your installs? Looks good, a lot cleaner then most. If the customer wants to run in the summer along with a/c then we generally insulate the lines inside too. I have a supplier for the Logstor, Don't you find it awful rigid? I had a five foot sample, it just seemed that it would be hard to work with. Thanks for the pic. I respect your experience I've only done about 450 jobs. T.D.


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## John Paul Sanborn

I was too lazy to read the whole thread, but does anyone have a heat exchanger that can get some energy out of the fluegas on regular wood boilers?

At 50-60% efficent, anything you could get would seem to help.


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## pipeboy

*one big kahuna!!!!*

check out this thing!!! woah momma!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41987&item=5963324535&rd=1


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## pipeboy

some value huh?? for $21k i think i could get by with one of everyother common brand!!!


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## ghitch75

treeco if your furance has a pilot light then the cold air from the A/C would cause the heat exchanger sweat and would rust it out...but your is an 80% furance so it is spark or hot surface ingition...but you well still get a little sweating just from the inside air(of your house)...the A/C should have been in the supply rather than in the return...if you ever have the furnace change have them move it to the supply

man 21k little pricey in my book

the pipe is'nt hard to work with at all 5" ditch it all you need and the longest it has took to get it in the ditch and in the house and up in the stove was about 30 min"s and done


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## bwalker

> the pipe is'nt hard to work with at all 5" ditch it all you need and the longest it has took to get it in the ditch and in the house and up in the stove was about 30 min"s and done


 When i installed mine I thought the same thing. poblem was I ran into solid rock a 18". I ended up rerouting the the pipe around the rock, but it took much longer then 30 min. The crazy thing is that after this last ordeal i am considering relocating my boiler. When i do i am going to go with the pipe Ghitch sells as its flexable and has a higher R value than the stuff I used.
Got anymore info on the boilers your designing, Ghitch?


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## metallab

Hello All. 

This is the mfg. of the Liberator I understand that some of you have Concerns about our product, Please understand this a commercial size unit for big heating jobs 30,000 plus sq. This price is a fair price for a unit of this size and quality, it also comes with additional equipment to control and plumb in 5 zones. Other mfgs. units are half what our unit is and range between 19,999 to 31,500 and as high as 45,700 again we heat 30,000 plus sq. this unit is the result of 3 years of R and D, and a lot of market research.
If you have any other valid questions I will be glad to answer them.


thanks


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## pipeboy

*sticker shock!!!*

i think (speaking for myself...not the group) that the sticker shock on something that big is what hit me first... i applaud the quick interlude though i think i just found that yesterday on an ebay search and posted it for the other guys to be sticker shocked also...it doesn't make spending 5-7k on a home unit all that unreasonable. i know i know...30,000 sq. ft. and all, but come on...$21k??? the price of steel hasn't gone up that much has it?? so what do you guys have for residential units?? are they draft or induced? and how much do those run? what does the insides of these things look like?


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## ghitch75

our unit that will do 30,000sft is a little over 12 grand so 21 grand is way out there and i could have one setting at your door in a coulpe days

30" x30" door

wood length 64"

water cap. 620 gallon

induction blower 300cfm

and yes pipe boy steel has went up alot(thanks to china) our boilers have went up 500 buc's at the first of the year


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## metallab

There is a lot of Steel in that unit it weighs 9128 empty (dry) then add 10,200
lbs of water, and a 3 day load of hardwood at 4000 lbs. 23,337 total. This unit is built to support such a load while working in industrial conditions by employees who don't own them. Not to mention the labor involved. Labor Is the killer. I think you guys cut trees and were all thankfull for that, but a gallon of gas 2.20 and oil is a 1.50 a quart and it still costs 1,000 avg. to drop an chew up a good sized maple or oak. Again were back to Labor cost and Quality . Simply put you could buy a Polan 16" 34cc at 120.00 or a husqvarna 385 6.hp for 800.00. Each will work well, but which one would you, or the other guys want in your tool chests as pro's. 

thanks


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## bluegoose

Django - what did you say your delivered price for one of your custom build units to MI would be?? Price break if I come get one??


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## pipeboy

in my online search for bigger and better i also came up with one of these...interesting theory i thought. but i got an email from the guy that makes them after i emailed a few more ?'s and he said that if it's outside that it needs an insulated shelter over it. even though it looks as though it may be more efficcient...it definetely looks like something any average welder could whip out in a month in his own garage...i mean look at the heat exchangers...they remind me of the old thermogrates for fireplaces. all my ranting and i forgot the website...www.rohor.com...check it out!


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## pipeboy

my ellipses made the web site post wrong... it's www.rohor.com


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## daddieslilgirl

well ill just jump in since im a nosey woman anyway lol my dad bought one its med sized sits about 15 ft from his house and about the same to my brothers it heats both houses it can take 4 ft pieces of wood ( we dont do that) its as big as me and my sil! lol we cant lift them in! its the best money he ever spent! i cant remember what the price was i think 4000.00 they did the concrete to set it on it heats all the hw, and it is HOT AS HADES!!! when we had 2 woodstoves for my mom and dad we cut 60 FULL cords in the summer and ran out in feb here in ny!!! now we just split it stack it and throw it in in the am and before everyone goes to sleep...but ya cant let it get below 170 degrees! cant wait for dad to put the steel building up for all the wood! lol oh by the way NEVER EVER put plastic or styrofoam in them it will burn a whole in the side or top quicker than h### and there is no patching these! get one you wont regret it ( and if your married no mess inside) lol


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## pipeboy

that's why i want one so bad...the wife hates the mess in "her" house when i go to load the indoor boiler.


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## pipeboy

so what brand do they have?? have they had any technical difficulties with it?


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## pipeboy

so how much wood do you typically go through in a season with the new boiler??


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## pipeboy

what did we just shut this thing down and no one wants to talk about this any more or what??


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## pipeboy

i know...but you can only dig the lines into your house in the summer  
and besides i would like to get at least ten cords of wood this summer so it will be at least partly seasoned for not this next winter but the one after. i also am building a 20' x12' x8' tall shelter for the wood to be stored under. and that will be right next to the pad that i'm going to pour for the unit. which i beleive to be about 120' from the house!!


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## pipeboy

i other words....gotta lot of work to do...getting bored of talking about...want to start rolling up my sleeves don't ya know!!


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## daddieslilgirl

*outdoor wood stove*

sorry i had other things to do and couldnt get back here. im not sure of the model i know that it eats wood..because i cut 1/2 of it! my dad is almost 70 and my mom cant do it anymore. no hes had absolutely no problems with it except for when they go away and my aunt forgets to fill it then no more hot water...duh! its the best thing theyve ever bought. actually sometimes cutting wood for it is calming if you can believe that! hubby bought us a cheapy woodstove (i wanted airtight) but nooooo he couldnt do that but it has saved serious money we spent 60.00 in fuel instead of 6-700.00 this year, plus the wood is free and if we did run out i am a loggers daughter after all  lol just a joke


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## fwpitts

*Outdoor stove*

I've been following this post for a while now. I really want to put one of these units in. I have narrowed my choices to the central boiler and the aqua-therm(I think). I have had the opportunity to see both of them. These two dealers live within 45 minutes of me. I live in southern NH and kind of in a suburb. All the houses have at least 2 acres and the closest one is about 100 ft from my house. A lot of people have wood stoves. I understand the outside units may eat quite a lot of wood, I think I can easily get 10 cords a year for free. The first two at least from my own property. My biggest concern is the smoke. From what I have seen the Aquatherm may be the least smoky because of the forced draft. Does anyone have any real experience with the Aquatherm unit. I have a small 1600 ft house. I think I would want the smallest unsheltered unit. I have a shed that is 65 feet from the back of my house which is also down wind. Any additional info would help as well as some pictures of a unit that is firing up. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. I have veen to every web site I can find. Even the Aqua therm site but there seems to be very little quality info out there. That is kinda sad considering how much these things cost.


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## Crofter

Forced draught or not, when they are in the off cycle, they smoke. Smoke does not go straight up and on calm days, downdraughts can take it right into your neighbors house. I think Treeco is right.


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## bwalker

Frank, when off cycle a good boiler barely smokes. Where the smoke problem starts is when you have a long off cycle. When the boiler kicks on after being dormat for such a long time it takes awhile before the fire box gets hot enought for clean combustion (firebrick liners help with this). I posted some pics in this thread of what the smoke levels of my stove are like. I might also point out that the problem alot of people run into is the fact that they buy units to large for there needs. To operate with the lowest amount of smoke possible the unit has to be sized right,m designed right, and fueled right with respect to fill times.
In answe to someone else question as to how much wood you will use i per winter. I cant really answer that for you, but my house is speced as follows 2000sq', has alot of windows, walk out basement, etc, built about 6 years ago, 2x6 construction, farely good insulation and windows, have a infloor hydronic type propane boiler, with boiler mate for hotwater, live in the UP of michigan were as a rule it doesnt stay terribly cold for long periods and I shot my propane sytem off starting in the early fall and dont turn it back on untill the end of April. I use between 10 and 15 full cords per year. Keep in mind I burn alot of junk wood in the spring and early fall. if I burnt only good wood I could probaly get by with ten cord.


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## daddieslilgirl

my dads doesnt smoke unless someone forgets to fill it! lol then it has to heat back up. nobody worries about smoke or any such thing because EVERYONE on our hill burns wood so thats not a problem, and nobody [email protected]#$%^ !


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## timberdog

fwpitts said:


> My biggest concern is the smoke. From what I have seen the Aquatherm may be the least smoky because of the forced draft. Does anyone have any real experience with the Aquatherm unit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I heat with the Central Boiler. Three houses a pool and shop. Use a big unit and live in the center of a city. Neighbors less than 100 feet. Most smoke problems are from people burning garbage or tires. Also the stack height is usually the root of the whole thing. The HPBA has a set of guidelines called best burn practices. I think that there is a link or it is displayed at centralboiler.com .
> 
> As for the Aquatherm. A friend of mine had one given to him, He in turn is giving it to the Central Boiler dealer for a discount on his new Classic. See if you can find any documented test results. Facts are facts. Timberdog http://www.centralboiler.com/media/misc-BestBurnPractices.pdf
Click to expand...


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## bwalker

Aquatherms are one of the best on market..
Timberdog, I would love to see the tests you made mention of.


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## timberdog

*Published test*

http://www.centralboiler.com/efficiency.php

Bwalker, here are most likely the only test results that you will find posted. If you can find any, I would also love to read them. These tests were performed by Wornok Hersey. The same test lab that did the original UL listing for the stove you use yourself. After the firebox design change, the test was performed on the Classic again to show an improvement to 6,300 BTU's per pound transferred thermal efficiency. To read the actual documents you will have to travel to Greenbush MN. In the next year or two ASTM test protocol will be established to set EPA standards. There will be a lot of published results then. 

By the way what size Heatmor is it that you have again? Also can you tell me the rated heat transfer square footage of that model? Thanks. Timberdog


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## bwalker

The "tests" amount to little more than sales BS as far as I can tell. As I have said before efficancy and outdoor woodboiler are pretty much mutually exclusive terms.
the heatmore I have is I believe a 200 series. Its been problem free and plenty efficiant for my needs..


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## fwpitts

*Outdoor Boiler*

Now this is the kind of discussions I have been looking for! Who owns exactly what brands and what are their results?

I have to say, I agree with Ben on the potential BS Factor. I have spent countless hours on the web trying to find test results on outdoor boilers. I did find the one at Central Boiler but I really couldn't figure some things out like!
1. What are the other four of the five leading manufactures they are talking about, obviously they Show Central as being one of them.
2. By whose standards are they the top five. Centrals?
3. Why not list the models as names not model numbers. Those model numbers mean nothing to me. I do not know who they are.
4. Why is Central Boilers site the only place I can find any reference to these tests? Are they slanted to-wards Central?

Woodheat.org give some insight to the potential hazards of burning wood in these stoves. Is it a slanted opinion?
I also seen some figures our from the EPA. I work for the Gov't. Knowing how they operate, I do NOT trust their Stats.

What the consumer wants to know is how much is one going to cost, what is the payback, how much work is it going to be, it it reliable, and in this case, is it going to smoke and how much and how can you alleviate smoke, ETC... 

NONE of the manufactures seem to answer these simple questions. If I missed it some place please let me know. They all claim they are the best! So does Ford, Chrysler, and Chevrolet! Which one is best? I think it just depends on who you talk to!

The only manufacturers website that I have looked at that does not have outrageous claims is Aqua-Therm. They are the only one (that I have seem) that states to properly size their unit. Then they state you should get 10-12 hours before tending your fire. This sounds more realistic than what some of them are claiming. And, they are the only manufacture that offers a unit way under $5000. 

Their Web Site is very simple. At first I thought is was too simple. I am now thinking that "Less may actually be more".
Based on what I have been reading , I am definately leaning toward the Aqua- Therm.

I think this is some great discussion. Thanks


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## timberdog

*Homework*

This site has a lot of great input, but it does have very opinionated slants as well. Like you said Ford, Chevy, or Dodge. 

I have also spent a lot of hours on the web, also time and money traveling.
As I have said before I have personally toured several manufacturers facilities. I have viewed the testing procedures while testing was in progress for certification by Omni test labs. Central is first and only company that I am aware of to be conducting these tests. It all started with an EPA test in 1994 when they were trying to outlaw single bypass wood-stoves. The result showed that the Classic single bypass design outperformed the Taylor triple bypass design in every category. Then the same tests were then conducted using Central, Taylor, Woodmaster, Heatmor, and Hardy. These brands were used to compare the different firebox designs. Round/square, single bypass/double etc. These were the lead selling manufacturers of those designs at the time. Model numbers were used for size and also to be polite.
If you are a top notch company, you stay on top by knowing what the competition claims and what they can deliver, That said. Central Boiler paid to have the testing done *HOWEVER* the tests performed were EPA-5G and EPA-28A and done by Wornok Hersey without input from Central.
Just so you know that the Classic design burning gas with the dual fuel option, proved the unit to be 87% efficient as tested to standards for an indoor gas boiler. 

Woodheat.org is written and maintained by persons directly tied into the indoor wood stove industry. Thats who pays their salary. It does have a definite slant against outdoor wood-stoves of any kind. Note that the Classic emissions are 6.2 GPH well below the EPA standard for an indoor stove at 7.5 GPH. They have some good information, but they are seriously slanted.

If someone has better intel than I have been able to gather I would love to read it. Also Central makes a cost conscious model called the hydro-fire. It starts at $4,025.00. 18 cubic foot 409 stainless firebox, twenty-five year warranty. This is also a UL listed product not like the off brands who won't have their units tested. Good day. Timberdog.


----------



## timberdog

*Heatmor*

Bwalker, I'm glad you are happy with your unit, most are. Apparently you have done some homework too. By touring most of the outdoor wood sites you have probably noticed a basis. According to several sources the average annual heat load in the Northern US. is 100million btu. per season. If you read the Heatmor FAQ you will see that they project "average" consumption of 6 - 10 full cord of fair quaility wood. Also loading the unit twice per day. 

The Classic shows "average" consumption of 4 -6 full cord. Loading once per day. Considering delivered BTU's per pound, operating stack temperature, emissions, and heat loss from the stoves themselves, The Heatmor literature also shows the same results as the test results. Approximately 40% more wood consumption for the same 100million delivered BTU.

I know that Heatmor has 8,000 square feet dedicated to testing and R&D. When I was there last summer it was not yet operating. AS of last week they will still not give any emission test results. Also note that on your unit the heat transfer square footage is not listed. It is published in the Classic literature, and on many other brand sites on the net. What it shows is that it takes a Model 400 to even come close to the performance of a small Classic 4436. Also people should look at cost per cubic foot of firebox. It takes some math but you will also find dollar for dollar the Classic is very competitive. Timberdog.


----------



## Giffordpa

*anybody heard of "The Wood Doctor" stove?*

I plan on buying an outdoor wood furnace this summer. Through the discussions I see that the two top ones seem to be Heatmor and Central Boiler. I was really leaning towards the Heatmor, actually I had made up my mind. (Still a little concerned about the venting through the roof and the water filled door.) Then a friend bought a Central boiler so I sent and looked at it. Seems well built, it vents out the back but has no grates... and it's forced draft is an over via the door.
Anyway, then I stumbled upon The Wood Doctor. Seems to be very complicated but looks very efficient. The problem is I cant' find anywhere how long they've been in business.
Any thoughts???


----------



## fwpitts

*Wood Doctor*

I asked The wood Doctor dealer for some information. I was a little disappointed that It took them four weeks to get back to me especially since I am only about three hours away from their dealership in Bangor Maine. But here is what they sent me. Looks like it could be a good stove. Although I couldn't't find much info about them other than what was on their website.

FWIW I think you should look at the postings from BWalker. I believe he did some considerable research. Others did too. Central looks impressive at first but do some serious research before making your final decision. I have done a lot of reading and narrowed my choice down between the Heatmor and Aqua-Therm. In the end I think your choice should be dealer location, support, warranty, and final cost. There is a lot of other items to buy besides the boiler. I found a good dealer and good price in the Aqua therm, everything total for less that 5000. including the side arm water heat exchanger an 100' of pipe end insulation. I am going to install it in my own shed. Time will tell what the unit will really be like. I just ordered mine today. Now I have all summer to get it installed and get about 10 cords of wood piled next to it. 
I plan on posting all my experiences from ordering, installing and actual performance on my project to this site. Hopefully others can learn from my success's as well as failures, as I sure there will be lots of both. I am just starting my adventure but am really looking forward to it. Should be fun and hopefully save some money in the end! 

Happy shopping 

Posting from Wood Doctor 20 March 2005
Good morning:
TODAY THERE IS A DEALER IN YOUR AREA
AT THIS TIME, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR OUR DEALER TO PROVIDE YOU WITH A UNIT 
A THE 
FOLLOWING PROMOTION., AT $1000. LESS MONEY THAN OUR NORMAL PRICING

OUR CURRENT SALE on ¼” certified boilerplate
Regular size heats up to 4000 sq ft $5190.00
Medium size heats up to 8000 sq ft $6190.00
Extra large heats up to 14000 sq ft $7490.00 USD

With an order right away, THE DEALER CAN LOCK THIS SALE IN FOR YOU.

Heavyweight Stainless furnaces are slightly cheaper per furnace.
These are 8 gauge firebox and 10 gauge water-jacket.
Heaviest in industry.

Light duty stainless furnaces of 10 gauge firebox and 12 gauge 
water-jacket 
carry only a 10 year warranty.

Our 30 YEAR WARRANTY is on our 1/4" certified BOILERPLATE UNITS.

CONTACT BRUCE POMERLAU 603-335-1576 OR ED TREMBLAY 603-859-0534 FOR 
INFORMATION OR ORDERING.



>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]


----------



## timberdog

Fwpitts, could you guide me to some of that info, more than the Aquatherm site. It must be some interesting reading. Send an e-mail if you like. Timberdog.


----------



## fwpitts

*Aqua-Therm*

Timberdog, 

Unfortunately you are not going to find anything else concrete on the Aqua-therm. You can get more literature from the company. Even the literature they send out isn't really anything new. The only pertinate info you will find is on this site, testimonial sites, and discussion boards, and they all have different OPINIONS about which design or Brand is better. Round or Square. Stainless or Boiler plate. I certainly do NOT have any qualifications that can determine which information is correct. I am looking for information myself. From reading information posted on many sites I don't think anyone really does. All brands claim to have the best. Below is a sampling of sites I have found. Unfortunately I did not bookmark them all. 

The owners of aqua therm used to work for Weil-McClain.
http://www.contractormag.com/articles/newsarticle.cfm?newsid=230

Read down to Christine in NY, testimonial
http://homesteadingtoday.com/vb/showthread.php?p=310736

An actual installation
http://www.ringolake.com/the_shop/hw_heat/outdoor_boiler.html

Go to their FAQ section
http://www.cozyheat.net/aqua-therm-outdoor-wood-furnace.phtml

Another Pressurized barrel design.
http://www.wdheat.com/2004-site/wood-usage.html

A unit similar to Tarm and the Wood doctor, notice the price.
http://www.rohor.com/

Great unit, GARN. I have an e-mail with their prices. Sticker Shock, Most expensive one I found for home use. 
http://www.dectra.net/garn/#

http://wooddoctorfurnace.com 

I have a friend that sells Central Boiler, he lives 20 miles from my house(NH). I visited him to see his working unit. I was at his house for about 3 hours in the evening. It had been loaded first thing that morning. His unit definitely heated his house well. It did put out what I thought as a lot of smoke, at least for my use. I asked for a price quote. The smallest unit was $6600 with hot water heat exchanger and all parts, Not including the piping at 12.50 per foot. He also has to add chemicals, ashtrol and has keep an eye on the unpressurized water level and PH level.

I visited the dealer for Aqua-Therm Which is about 25 miles from my house. I had never met him before but he impressed me. He said he had been researching outdoor boilers for 5 years before making his decision. He is also a certified plummer and electrician. I went to his house about the same time of day as my friends visit. His unit also heated the house well. All conditions were about the same such as it was it was loaded first thing in the morning, I spent about 3 hours at his house, etc... He does not have to add any chemicals, never has to check water level of his sealed system, I tried to get pictures of the trickle of smoke coming out. Not enough to show up on the film.
I got a price quote. $4800 dollars for smallest unsheltered unit with Hot water heat exchanger all parts included and INCLUDED 100' of pipe and insulation.

A pressurized system makes sense to me. All Oil fired furnaces are pressurized. Stainless makes sense to me also, lower corrosion. And at least in theory the round firebox has less stress points than a square one. Aqua-Therm now gives a lifetime warranty. 6 years full replacement then prorated. You don't get that from any regular furnace dealer that I know of except System 2000. 

Since none of these units are efficient, what is the bottom line? Return On Your Investment. I am a little worried about smoke but I cant justify the higher costs of TARM, Seton or GARN. Too many years for pay back plus you can't burn junk wood in these units. Another plus is no need to buy additional chemicals. (added cost to some units), If I decide to put Anti-Freeze in the unit, it is only 48 Gallons, not 150 Gallons.

I figure on current Oil prices (and they will go up) and keeping my current electric hot water heater, I will pay for the Aqua-Therm in about 3 years with free wood. We spent about $800 on fuel oil this year, $700 on furnace repairs and approx $90 per month for the electric hot water heater.

I will definitely post my savings to this site. There really is not a great information sites out there. Only opinions. This Site has by far had the most info posted on it that I can find. I will post what actually happens with my installation and what issues come up. The Good. Bad and Ugly!!

Have a Great Day! 
Farrell


----------



## timberdog

*How is the project.*

Hello Farrell, Was wondering how your project was coming along. Also had a few questions. 
Since your purchase was an unsheltered unit and you planned on puttting it into an existing structure, what were your plans to keep the heat in the stove?
In your two examples earlier, did both units have sufficient wood supply to last the night or would they need to be refilled before morning?
Also from my calculations the unit that you purchased would have an elven cubic foot firebox. The small Classic has a twenty five cubic foot chamber. So, what was the cost per cubic foot for your unit?
What kind of insulated pipe was supplied with the unit, for the price you mentioned?
Seems that this site dies out as the temp rises. Hope your projct is going as well as planned. Good day, Timberdog.


----------



## fwpitts

*Aquatherm*

Hi Timberdog,
I received the unit about a month ago. I am a little behind schedule in getting it installed. It is still sitting in my barn. As far a keeping the heat in, it comes with insulation that has a thermal (foil) covering on it. It wraps around the entire unit except the door.

I have become friends with the dealer and we talk often. He says the load will depend on lots of factors such as type of wood, temp outside and other factors. (Same as many of the postings on this site). I spoke with him yesterday and he is simmering his on a three day cycle right now for hot water. Temps around here have been on the cool side until this week. He has the next larger unit. I anticipate I will need to load twice a day on average. Of course this is only a guess. I intentionally wanted the smallest unit. Based on what I have read oversizing is the worst thing you could do! Better Off loading more often so the fire does not smolder as much. Smoke is my biggest concern since I do have neighbors. 
The dealer has been experimenting with his and stated he believes he gets the same burn time weather he loads it half way or a full load. We'll see! 

Cost per cubic foot, that is an interesting question! Never thought about it that way. I guess I will have to figure that one out! It is a small firebox compared to the classic I looked at. I got a real good deal on it but the price has increased about 17% since I purchased mine.

The pipe is 1" pex (same as the classic). It has a 6" close cell styro-foam insulation which needs to be inserted into a thin walled sewer pipe. I still need to get this installed. I have that planned for next weekend(HOPEFULLY). 

You are right, it seems when it gets warm the guys forget about posting updates! I will keep my promise, I will post my entire project experience to this site! There really needs to be more info out there on these units. Especially as the oil prices will only continue to rise.

By the way, the Classic dealer I know wants to help me with the install so he can learn about the Aquatherm. INTERESTING!

I am excited to get started. I hope I get in installed before the cold returns!!

Thanks for asking, Farrell


----------



## timberdog

*Progress*

Hey Farrel, how is the project going? I had a question for you. In your past posts you commented that the Aquatherm dealer stated that filling the unit or loading it half way seemed to get relatively comparable burn times. Did he give you an explanation for this? Thanks Timberdog.


----------



## bwalker

Ghitch, you still around I want to buy some of that insulated woodboiler pipe you sell.


----------



## ghitch75

i sent you an email


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## JimmyWood

*Royall Wood Boiler*

Hey, going to be installing my new Royall and I have NO CLUE What Im doing.
So Im hoping to find some help here.
In a nutshell. Right now I run 2 radiant zones through seperate Propane Hot water Heaters.
I want to run into those so they serve as backup should my wood boiler go out. I also want to run my hot water with it and I have an electric hot water heater now.
So far, I figure 20 Plate and 40 Plate exchangers--and beyond that I really dont know how I should approach hookup. I`m sure there plenty of things I should be aware of, and I am not.
Any help or thoughts will be appreciated.

Jim
(in NH)


----------



## tawilson

I'm going to try to build my own outdoor wood boiler. I already have an oil fired boiler system in my house. I'm using a cast iron radiator as the coil in the wood stove. I've got a welded stainless firebox and galvanized outer shell, with 3" of insulation on order. I've heard of it being done, but actually don't know anyone who's done it. We'll see. Not a lot of investment, except time, if it doesn't work. I plan on running it as a loop thru my existing boiler, possibly putting it thru a couple more radiatiors in my basement, which is unheated. It stays around 60-65 degrees in there, so a little more heat would help keep my downstairs floors warmer. Plus, hopefully the mass of them will act as storage. It'll mean changing over to a higher glycol percentage. I've heard that glycol is harder to heat, not sure how that will affect things. Anybody got any comments, good or bad idea, whatever, I'd welcome them. I plan on adding controls, an aquastat to control the circulating pump and control valve, damper control on the firebox, and possibly a low water cutoff at the woodstove, even tho my oil fired boiler has one. Oh, and definetly a relief valve near the woodstove. Maybe a flow control switch, so if the pump fails, the stove shuts down. I'll also need a larger expansion tank.


----------



## woodnovice

Being new at this I have read w/ much interest all of the posts and have not heard any comments on the Woodmaster.I am considering the heatmor and aqua-therm now after reading the info from all of you.Just curious on the woodmaster though.I was looking at the woodmaster 4400 prior to this and was wondering how it stacked up to the others.Thanks


----------



## jokers

tawilson said:


> I'm going to try to build my own outdoor wood boiler.......I've heard of it being done, but actually don't know anyone who's done it. We'll see. Not a lot of investment, except time, if it doesn't work.



Hi Tom, I`ve done it, pm me your phone # and I`ll give you a call sometime soon. You aren`t originally from the Camden/Annsville area by any chance, are you?



tawilson said:


> I've heard that glycol is harder to heat, not sure how that will affect things.



Glycol use is reputed to reduce thermal efficiency by up to 60% if mixed at a ratio of 1:1. You may not even need glycol, it`s not uncommon to run without it as long as you can drain the outdoor boiler fairly easily, if need be. 

You also do not want to run glycol in your sytem if it is open to your existing boiler. It`s not a good idea to rely on the check valve on the auto make-up water line to prevent a backflow into your well. The auto make ups operate on differential pressure, meaning that if the boiler water level gets low and the pressure drops, water will flow into the boiler. If you have a power outage and your potable water baldder tank is drawn down below about 12 psig, boiler water can flow into your drinking water. I`m sure that you don`t want even propylene glycol, which is considered non-toxic, in your well.

You should also consider making your outdoor boiler non-pressurized. True boilers and pressure vessels are tough for the shadetree builder to produce. Safety has to be considered.

Russ


----------



## Newfie

JimmyWood said:


> Hey, going to be installing my new Royall and I have NO CLUE What Im doing.
> So Im hoping to find some help here.
> In a nutshell. Right now I run 2 radiant zones through seperate Propane Hot water Heaters.
> I want to run into those so they serve as backup should my wood boiler go out. I also want to run my hot water with it and I have an electric hot water heater now.
> So far, I figure 20 Plate and 40 Plate exchangers--and beyond that I really dont know how I should approach hookup. I`m sure there plenty of things I should be aware of, and I am not.
> Any help or thoughts will be appreciated.
> 
> Jim
> (in NH)





UHHHH, gee lets see, maybe hire a licensed heating and plumbing contractor? Nah that would be silly and safe!


----------



## Johnboy

I've monkeyed with hydronic quite a bit. Starting with simple garage/hw heater system to advanced gas boiler, zones & domestic hw. These systems can be very tricky. When done right, they are a joy. When done wrong, they can be a real pain. 

There are "pros" around here that can't get it right. 

Right now, I'm in the process of tying my house system (munchkin boiler) and my garage system (propane hot water heater) to a hot water stove in my barn with hopes to have heat in all 3 buildings. Terms like "head pressure", "closely spaced tees" and "short cycling" have dominated the conversations. I had the company that initially installed the munchkin come back and redo the main loop. When initially installed, it worked so-so and they wanted to come back and re-do it free-of-charge so they could learn more about the systems (after attending a class). When they left, it was even more messed up. My zones are starving and the boiler is short-cycling.

Anyway, I know everything they did wrong and am just going to fix it myself. I have a good diagram from the outfit we bought the wood stove from. He has 20 years of hydronic heat experience. 

You're trying to tie your systems together and will have your hands full. You said you wanted to keep the existing hot water tanks. You need to decide of you're going to fill the tanks with hot water or bypass them untill you need them. On my garage system, with the lp hwh, I plan to create a bypass, and I will pbbly never use the hwh since now, tied together, the munchkin in the house will be the backup for the entire system. Beyond that, my wood stove has electric heat option which I may hook up for temporary backup as well. 

I think if you can find someone with a long experience in hydronics, you might find the money well spent to have them at the very least diagram everything for you. Sizing pumps, pipe and such can be tricky. Typical problems encountered are zone starvation, air-locks and such. A good design can help avoid such problems. 

Anyway, I'm kind of long-winded today, mostly because I'm a little stiff and sore from horsing the new wood-stove into the barn.

Cheers and good luck.
Johnboy


----------



## tawilson

Johnboy,
What did you get for a hot water stove?


----------



## Johnboy

I went with a Garn 1500. You can look at some of my previous posts in this thread to see why. Main reasons are storage, efficiency & clean burning. I'll post pictures soon.

Cheers
jb


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## woodnovice

I hadn't seen any pros or cons on my inquiry on the merits or lack of on the Woodmaster.Any opinions would be appreciated.


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## bnew

I have an old taylor unit and would not think of an indoor unit again. I have grown up burning wood indoors and wold not go back. If they say you get what you pay for is true I will get a better one in the future because this old 1200 dollar one is doing great for me.


----------



## Sinbad_36

*Soft Water Myths*



jokers said:


> Heatmor uses fire brick. There is a course right above the sand bed in the bottom, right where all the hottest coals would build up and rest against the sides. Wood fired boilers probably don`t need fire brick because the metal shell of the fire box, which is the inner wall of the water jacket, doesn`t get hot enough to oxidize from the flames. Especially if it`s stainless. I don`t advocate carbon steel for any boiler because of corrosion, but to each their own. Well water is notorious for being hard, meaning it has alot of corrosive minerals and elements in it. Softened water is just as bad with the salt present. Russ




Just a quick note on your softened water comment. Soft water does not contain enough salt to even be classified as a low soduim food source (check fda site)... The salt is used to clean the resin bed and is then flushed out the drain... However if you are filling your boiler with salt water ensure that you do it just after a complete regen on you softener. This will insure that you do not suck dirty (brine) into your unit.. regen first, then fill your system. The soft water does not contain any salt, minerals or iron. for a system that is not industry standard, has a 25 year warranty and guarantees that you will not get any salt in your piping or system check out Haguewater.com....


----------



## Spanky1

We just installed a Heatmor 200 last week. Far more than we bargained for. Worth the extra money. Ive never burned wood or had a stove or anything. But at $2000/year in L.P. it's an easy decision.

Oh, and there isn't smoke to speak of. There was some at start up when the installers put a bunch of cardboard and stuff in, but thats it. Even when it shuts down after reaching temp, it's great.

Thanks to this forum for great info.
Spanky


----------



## jokers

Sinbad_36 said:


> Just a quick note on your softened water comment. Soft water does not contain enough salt to even be classified as a low soduim food source (check fda site)


To qualify as a low sodium food source, I`m sure that water would still allow a comparatively high level of salt compared to pure water for the purpose of corrosion protection. I`m involved in processing electronics grade "pure water", ~ .052µmho/cm and we don`t use any acid or base regenerated demins or polishers because of the salts. We use ultrasonic regeneration that knocks the crud off the beads. In the water process stream we use mechanical filtration, GAC(granular activated carbon primarily for TOC removal) reverse osmosis filters(gross soluble salt removal) coupled with the aforemention demins and polishers as well as electrostatic and ultraviolet(for breaking organic bonds) purification as necessary to lower or eliminate conductive (salts or colloidal metals) corrosion products.

This statement seems both contradictory


Sinbad_36 said:


> ... The salt is used to clean the resin bed and is *then flushed out the drain*... However *if you are filling your boiler with salt water*...


 and untrue


Sinbad_36 said:


> The soft water does not contain *any* salt, minerals or iron.


. 



Sinbad_36 said:


> for a system that is not industry standard, has a 25 year warranty and *guarantees that you will not get any salt* in your piping or system check out Haguewater.com....


This gaurantee that you so unabashedly use as your sales pitch has fine print. Do not assume that because of the nature of this forum that the people here are uneducated. IMO, I`m the equivalent of a pimple on the arse of many really intelligent posters here.

Russ


----------



## tawilson

If I do a regen, then use the water as usually for a day, then fill the boiler, wouldn't that flush any leftover salt out of the system and still be softened water? Or, maybe I should try to find a premixed 50/50 glycol solution. I know you can buy car antifreeze that way.


----------



## jokers

tawilson said:


> If I do a regen, then use the water as usually for a day, then fill the boiler, wouldn't that flush any leftover salt out of the system and still be softened water? glycol solution.



That`s probably as good as you are going to get Tom. The truth is that even unsoftened water often has a significant quantity of salt. Your idea of flushing your softener through a day`s worth of use is a good idea in that it doesn`t rely on the typical timed backwash that softeners have to rinse down the resin. The fact of the mater is that on the scale that residential water is treated, it`s normally a case of "this for that" hopefully leaving you with less troublesome contaminants than you started with.

I apologize if my response to Sinbad may have offended any regulars here. His thinly veiled pitch to sell Hague water systems using half truths and ommissions really tipped me over. Notice that he came in to make his one and only post on 9/29/05 and apparently didn`t bother to visit the rest of the site. He probably found this thread in the first place by Googling "water softeners". Sorry, but spamming a board with sales pitches irks me.

Russ


----------



## bnew

Jokers, I think you were in the right to do so.The only thing he had to say was about water softners and then tried to sell them at the end of his thread. I also noticed the guy above saying he has a wood boiler that produces no smoke.Sound like he is phishing for people to inquire.


----------



## Spanky1

OK. I'm not a dealer. I said "no smoke to speak of". IMHO the smoke that comes out is far short of the catastrophic lung disorders that people are complaining about in the forums. I've seen more smoke from my wife's cooking!  (only sometimes)

Keep in mind we have only been running a week. From filling it up to the top, to only a few pieces at a time, doesn't seem to make a difference on the smoke. "There just AINT that much".

Spanky


----------



## django

Wow. I havent posted or looked at this thread in some time. Got kinda big.  
Since I built mine, I have had countless people ask me about building their own, or which one I would buy if I was going to buy one. I have literature on nearly every one out there. Kind of a hobby of mine. One thing has to be clear: They are all giant smoking wood pigs. I knew that going in, and It's not a problem where I live. GARN is the only clean unit I know of. As long as you store energy in the form of unburnt wood, you will have a dirty burn. Period.
I have no brand loyalty, as I built mine. As stated previously, most sales literature is pure crap. Good to be back.
Django


----------



## slabracing

*Woodmaster 4400*

Wow what a thread!
I wish I had found AS before Dec. 2005
I have woodmaster 4400 that I installed in Oct.2004 and have been pretty happy with it so far.
Last Friday was interesting though
My wife called me at work to say there was no hot water and no heat at about 4pm and that the stove door had all the paint burned off!?
Went home early to take a look and found that creosote had backed up into the air opening in the door,started on fire and burned up the fan,wires,paint,and all related things.
NOT happy!
Fired up the gas furnace and water heater in the basement,and went to my dealer(luckily only 2mi. away).He had a fan for me,but was shocked about the fire.He then told me about not being a Woodmaster dealer anymore because of not being treated well by the company in regards to warranty work.
Also informed me that about 10 of the stoves he did about the same time as mine had a problem with creosote building up in the doors causing the fan motor to gum up and quit.This was due to a limited number of units made with the bottom of the inner door baffle cut short to leave a space of about
3/4" open for more airflow to the firebox.He went to his truck and gave me a piece of steel already cut and drilled to cover this space and block that build up from happening.What a PITA.
I still like my stove but this sucked


----------



## bwalker

I looked at Woodmaster, but I wasnt impressed with them at all.


----------



## Robert Mickley

Well I didn't read the whole thread, but. I heat with a an outdoor boiler. its the Robert Mickley brand. ain't no way in heck I was going to shell out $5000 or more for a boiler. sorry but thats just highway robbery. 

I hve right at $1100 in mine. thats everything. building the tanks, buying the pump, blower, aquastat, 148,000 btu heat exchanger, 120 feet of plex, connectors, welding rod, insualation, flue pipe. 4 inch pvc, 3/4 conduit. wire. 

Took me about 4 days working on it off and on. granted we had a pretty mild winter here but I've only burned about 2.5 to 3 cords of firewood, maybe less. 

It's an open tank system, yeah you have to add makeup water every time you fire it but all I do is open a valve. so what if it corrodes out in 10 years. thats 110 bucks a year still cheaper than propane


----------



## slabracing

*moved?*

Is there any way to get this thread moved to the heating with wood forum
there is alot of good info on here,but hard to find because it is off the topic


----------



## gotwood

*what to buy*

I have looked at many different types of outdoor boilers. It seems when I think I have made up my mind I find a different one. Heatmor was the one that I thought I would buy, Central name it I guess. Does anyone have anything on Portage and Main boilers? They have been around a while seems to have a good reputation and very good warranty. Thanks for any info.


----------



## carney19

*Woodmaster 4400*

I just have to reply to something that was posted earlier here. I work for Woodmaster as their tech writer and I have a 4400. I have nothing but good things to say about it. I love it....better yet my wife loves it. Somebody said something earlier about a dealer not selling Woodmaster anymore because of the Warranty. I work right next to the warranty guys here and I can honestly tell you(not just because I work here) that I have never been apart of a company that takes care of its warranty issues better and faster. So this "dealer" must have been doing something wrong and chances are he got booted.


----------



## fourapples

Getting off the subject some, I have purchased and installed a stainless OWB. Just curious if anyone has feedback on installing grounding rod and grounding the unit to protect from electrical storms etc.. Should this be included in the installation process?


----------



## django

*Been a little while....*

Hello to all,
It's been a long time since I posted or even looked at this site,kinda strange since I started the thread back in '01. But I have been on to other things. Seems there has been a few discussions.... FYI, I am on the 5th season with my home made Smoke Dragon and all is well. As you may recall mine is made entirely of hot rolled sheet metal, 7ga. firebox, 10ga. jacket. Dual draft control ( natural or forced depending on the load) Very well insulated.
I use a sludge conditioner and corrosion inhibitor in the water. I scrape the stove out every spring and spray it with a mixture of diesel fuel and clean motor oil. No sign of corrosion. The smoke and efficiency discussions kind of crack me up a little. The basic outdoor wood/water setup wth the water jacket against the firebox wall is so horribly inefficient as to be laughable. Mine included. Go out to your stove. Open the door. Is ther creosote all over the place? It is an inefficient wood pig.Is the smoke black/blue/brown when it fires? It is an inefficient wood pig. Go to woodheat.org and look at what some guy in Pennsylvania did with his Central Smoker. Very good stuff. Very expensive mods. "Warnock Heresy" test? Puhleeeese. The water capacity point is a little ambiguous as well, I don't care if you're heating 100 gallons _at the __stove _ or 10,000 , the water in the jacket will never get above the setpoint you have designated (not including deadband) so the cooling effect on the fire is the same, the water is relatively very cold compared to what the flame temp is trying to be. your cycle on/off time will be affected for sure, and that can certainly have an efficiency effect if the burn time is exceptionally short.Blah blah blah, etc etc...You want to see efficient wood to water? Garn. Great system, fantastic flame temps, very low emissions, big ol' heat flywheel. Major coin though. I am making some fairly significant improvements (hopefully) to mine shortly and if anyone is interested I will post more pics. I am not unhappy with my stove but it is what it is, and I have the bug again.
There are a few more players in the outdoor stove game since I looked at all of the manufacturers befor building mine, but physics haven't changed at all.
The measure of "efficiency" is still how many of the available BTU's in the wood end up in the water. Not out the stack, not stuck to the sides of the forebox, not as unburned clinks in the ash, (which in an efficient stove there isnt much ash anyway,wood depending) By that measure most stoves for sale today and making ridiculous I should say _criminal_ claims fall very very short indeed. They are smoky, dirty, inefficient pigs. It is impossible for them to be otherwise, you simply can't get optimal flame temps, not even close, unless you can get water to boil at a higher temp than 212* I love mine anyway. You can "help" by burning small loads more often to minimize unburnt fuel, and a few other things. I personally know 6 people besides myself that used to burn inside and moved outside. We all have the basic stove setup, thier's are Heatmor, Central, Hardy, Mahoning, Pacific Western and Taylor.
We all use around twice the wood we used inside in various modes. Twice.
That's a "real world" measure. Not a misleading "test"
I have a friend who still burns inside, and we have pretty identical heat loads. Again, he uses about half the wood that I do. I still won't go back to inside burning, I don't miss the mess and the hauling. Or the bugs.
Hope everyone is doing well. Stay warm.

FYI also, the Pacific Western, supposedly made from fabulous 409 stainless, rusted out from the OUTSIDE in 3 years. He had to haul it to Thunder Bay at his expence to have it exchanged. "Transportation is at the expence of the owner" They were very unresponsive to any other option. It was too rotted to be worth repairing. Amazing. Sad.


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## WRW

django said:


> We all use around twice the wood we used inside in various modes. Twice.
> That's a "real world" measure. Not a misleading "test"
> I have a friend who still burns inside, and we have pretty identical heat loads. Again, he uses about half the wood that I do. .



I've found that since the daughter that took two half hour showers every day plus washed one load of clothes in the same time frame left, my fuel consumption has gone back to around what it was with the inside wood heat. My drainfield is happier, too.


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## DDM

I have moved this thread to the firewood & Heating with wood forum.I Believe its more fitting here.


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## beerman6

:censored: This is a long thread...do I need to read it all?


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## Marklambert61

*Heatmor*

Love my stove...


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## zsteinmetz

i have a wood doctor and love it. There made of boilerplate and have a 30 year warraty, one of the best in the business.


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## chubs

i was looking at the wood doctor converter, anybody have any imformation on them?


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## pipe welder

I guess this is as good a place as any to throw in my 2 cents. Been burning wood for 35 years. Inside stoves, indoor boiler and OWB. My biggest complaint with the OWB is the amount of wood it burns. Probably twice my IWB and almost 3 times the inside stoves. I bought a woodmaster 4400 ,does everything woodmaster says it will do. I could have and probably should have built my own given my background 35 yrs pipefitter welder but I had other things to do. At my age cutting 11 or 12 cords of wood a year gets old pretty quick. I would like the option to burn some coal to supplement the wood. I know the woodmaster isn't set up for coal but I could modify it or just put it on craigslist and build my own. I read here somebody in Indiana burning coal. If anyone reading this knows where to buy coal in east central Il or west central In where did you get it and how much per ton?


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## troyd1

*Shaver model*

Has anyone dealt with these people?
http://www.nextlevelsolutionz.com/index.html

They have a burner that is reasonable appears to have a nice warranty. I have not seen any posts on them and wanted to get some opinions. Also is there a good site for stove comparisons?


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## cimalt

Haven't actually got an OWB but after loads of research (we use ~2250 gallons of oil a year so looking to move from this) I have decided that if we are going to buy one that the Shaver from next levelsolutions (weldrite Inc) looks like it is built well (I have been told one fell over a cliff {I guess when someone who shouldn't have been was moving it} and was still able to be used; just superficial denting!).
One thing that is missing is good real life testimonials of wood usage compared to previous fuel (oil/propane etc) but I have already asked for and got some info in another post. Again thanks to those people who have replied so far as I'm sure it will help those of us still making up our minds.


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## kalib stock

I have a Taylor T-500CB its going on it's seventh year! This is their 37th year making the stoves. No problems with it. Its has more than paid for itself, as far as the the care of it goes you drain the water jacket ounce a year and put two Quarts of chemical and a Anode rod in it and you're set! I've seen a LOT of them that are from 15 to 30 years old that still work great! God luck with your purchase! Kalib



django said:


> Any of y'all have an outside woodstove? Also known as a wood fired boiler even though they dont boil. I am considering buying or building one and would like some pros/cons.
> Thanx.


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## LeakyWoodDoctor

*My Leaky Wood Doctor*

I have lots of information to share regarding my OWB!

Pipping ideas, anodes, boiler treatment, homemade DHW heat siphon, mixing valves, patching leaks, warranty wording to watch out for, corrosion problems, etc.

I will try to put up posts on all of these subjects where appropriate!

I have had two Heavy Gauge Stainless Steel Wood Doctor OWB develops numerous leak within the first 5 years of my warranty. The first in only it's second heating season and the second in only it's third heating season!


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## LeakyWoodDoctor

*My Wood Doctor Warranty - No Warranty at all!*

Have you notices the phrase in your Wood Doctor warranty, "on site or at our factories"? 

Returning "a part" to the factory when requested by Wood Doctor may not seem like a biggy, but what if Wood Doctor considers "the part" to be your entire furnace and what if "the factory" is in Manitoba? 

I am the not so proud owner of my second 2000 lbs heavy duty stainless steel exterior wood furnace. My original furnace developed perforations in it's belly causing it to loose all it's water in only it's second heating season. I managed to make it to spring by holding vigilance over ten or so pine plugs hammered into the holes to stop the leaks! 

This first boiler was promptly replaced under warranty by Wood Doctor at virtually no cost to me. 

This replacement stainless steel boiler has now just barely made it threw it's third heating season, this time developing perforations primarily along the belly weld lines! 

My original furnace has a 25 year replacement warranty covering repairs at 100% for the first 5 years. I am still within the first 5 years of my warranty and have had two of these boilers corrode out on me. 

This time around though, Wood Doctor is exercising a phrase in it's warranty which they believe gives them the right to request that I ship my entire furnace half way across the country for assessment to repaired or replaced rather then they send someone local to fix it. It is simply ludicrous to me that they believe they can interpret their warranty in this way, making it, in fact, no warranty at all! Their interpretation is essentially that an entire 2000 lbs furnace is, "a part" that they can request be returned to them for repair! :jawdrop:

I wonder what phrases you might find in your warranty? Would your dealer consider an entire 2000 lbs furnace, "a part" that he could simply request be returned for accessment!

I've stuck epoxy putty over all the holes in my Wood Doctor and put it back online for this heating season, but I have no idea how long it will be able to hold water! I do not seem to have much choice at present!


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## November Wolf

LeakyWoodDoctor said:


> Have you notices the phrase in your Wood Doctor warranty, "on site or at our factories"?
> 
> Returning "a part" to the factory when requested by Wood Doctor may not seem like a biggy, but what if Wood Doctor considers "the part" to be your entire furnace and what if "the factory" is in Manitoba?
> 
> I am the not so proud owner of my second 2000 lbs heavy duty stainless steel exterior wood furnace. My original furnace developed perforations in it's belly causing it to loose all it's water in only it's second heating season. I managed to make it to spring by holding vigilance over ten or so pine plugs hammered into the holes to stop the leaks!
> 
> This first boiler was promptly replaced under warranty by Wood Doctor at virtually no cost to me.
> 
> This replacement stainless steel boiler has now just barely made it threw it's third heating season, this time developing perforations primarily along the belly weld lines!
> 
> My original furnace has a 25 year replacement warranty covering repairs at 100% for the first 5 years. I am still within the first 5 years of my warranty and have had two of these boilers corrode out on me.
> 
> This time around though, Wood Doctor is exercising a phrase in it's warranty which they believe gives them the right to request that I ship my entire furnace half way across the country for assessment to repaired or replaced rather then they send someone local to fix it. It is simply ludicrous to me that they believe they can interpret their warranty in this way, making it, in fact, no warranty at all! Their interpretation is essentially that an entire 2000 lbs furnace is, "a part" that they can request be returned to them for repair! :jawdrop:
> 
> I wonder what phrases you might find in your warranty? Would your dealer consider an entire 2000 lbs furnace, "a part" that he could simply request be returned for accessment!
> 
> I've stuck epoxy putty over all the holes in my Wood Doctor and put it back online for this heating season, but I have no idea how long it will be able to hold water! I do not seem to have much choice at present!




Could your problem be from not having your unit grounded with a ground rod? The reason I ask is someone told me It is critical to have a stainless boiler grounded.


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## ghitch75

LeakyWoodDoctor said:


> Have you notices the phrase in your Wood Doctor warranty, "on site or at our factories"?
> 
> Returning "a part" to the factory when requested by Wood Doctor may not seem like a biggy, but what if Wood Doctor considers "the part" to be your entire furnace and what if "the factory" is in Manitoba?
> 
> I am the not so proud owner of my second 2000 lbs heavy duty stainless steel exterior wood furnace. My original furnace developed perforations in it's belly causing it to loose all it's water in only it's second heating season. I managed to make it to spring by holding vigilance over ten or so pine plugs hammered into the holes to stop the leaks!
> 
> This first boiler was promptly replaced under warranty by Wood Doctor at virtually no cost to me.
> 
> This replacement stainless steel boiler has now just barely made it threw it's third heating season, this time developing perforations primarily along the belly weld lines!
> 
> My original furnace has a 25 year replacement warranty covering repairs at 100% for the first 5 years. I am still within the first 5 years of my warranty and have had two of these boilers corrode out on me.
> 
> This time around though, Wood Doctor is exercising a phrase in it's warranty which they believe gives them the right to request that I ship my entire furnace half way across the country for assessment to repaired or replaced rather then they send someone local to fix it. It is simply ludicrous to me that they believe they can interpret their warranty in this way, making it, in fact, no warranty at all! Their interpretation is essentially that an entire 2000 lbs furnace is, "a part" that they can request be returned to them for repair! :jawdrop:
> 
> I wonder what phrases you might find in your warranty? Would your dealer consider an entire 2000 lbs furnace, "a part" that he could simply request be returned for accessment!
> 
> I've stuck epoxy putty over all the holes in my Wood Doctor and put it back online for this heating season, but I have no idea how long it will be able to hold water! I do not seem to have much choice at present!



it's just not wood doctor...all wood boiler company's will make you do all the leg work....then when they get it they'll say your ash line is to high or some other crap to get out of covering warranty....sorry for the bad news.....had dealings with 4 different company's over the past 6 years and there all the same on warranty.....and if you do get them to fix it...it could be 6 months to a year before you get it back...


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## Raymond

I've seen these things but haven't looked into it really. I can imagine they want big bucks for them.

:monkey: So I let my cheap redneck ways take over and thought about a cheap 200 dollar tin shed with a grave floor. 20 ft. or so from the house. 
With a double wood burning 55 gallon drums inside. Heat ducks with blowers running into the house taking heat out of the shed with out the smoke.

Sounds like a set up for well under 500 bucks to me. 
But then I see the word boiler...so it's a little more than that huh?


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## ngzcaz

Wrap copper piping around your barrels, run water thru them and heat your water as well.. we should go in business.

:monkey:


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## LeakyWoodDoctor

*Boiler Water Treated, Anode Installed and Boiler Grounded!!*



November Wolf said:


> Could your problem be from not having your unit grounded with a ground rod? The reason I ask is someone told me It is critical to have a stainless boiler grounded.



And still, holes straight through this Heavy Gauge Stainless Steel in under 3 heating seasons!!! 

You have to wonder just what kind of Stainless Steel Wood Doctor builds their OWB out of???

Would you call it, "Heavy Gauge"? 

Would you even go so far as to actually refer to it as, "Stainless Steel"?


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## LeakyWoodDoctor

Hey, 

I have heard via the grape vine that Wood Doctor maybe soon be sending a certified welder to my home to repair my leaking beastie! :chatter:

If this actually happens, the words *"On Site"* in my warranty will actually mean, *"On Site!" *.

I hope to be impressed by the work that is done to repair the many leaks and cracks in my Wood Doctor boiler and will be sure to post a number of pictures here to document the work for all to see! 

Perhaps next heating season will be a *"leak-free"* one! :dunno:


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## ngzcaz

I dont want to throw water on your parade, but is the dealer/company telling you what caused this mess in the first place and what steps they will take to prevent a reoccurrence of the same problem ? Annealing is probably what happened to cause the failure of the weld. Simply welding over a bad spot may not be the correct way to solve this. Replacement would be the answer or better a refund to buy another product. You arent the only one to have problems with stainless and you probably purchased it thinking it would last your lifetime. Thats a real shame.. mild steel, boiler plate, whatever you want to call it is looking better and better.

Good luck.. you should have people falling over you not to give their product ill reviews. And ill reviews would be mild if it were me.


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## ngzcaz

I just checked their web site.. Why is it they give LESS of a warranty to the S.S. units than to their mild steel units ? What the heck is that ??

:monkey:


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## LeakyWoodDoctor

*Swiss Cheeze Stainless Steel!*



ngzcaz said:


> I dont want to throw water on your parade, but is the dealer/company telling you what caused this mess in the first place and what steps they will take to prevent a reoccurrence of the same problem ? Annealing is probably what happened to cause the failure of the weld. Simply welding over a bad spot may not be the correct way to solve this. Replacement would be the answer or better a refund to buy another product. You arent the only one to have problems with stainless and you probably purchased it thinking it would last your lifetime. Thats a real shame.. mild steel, boiler plate, whatever you want to call it is looking better and better.
> 
> Good luck.. you should have people falling over you not to give their product ill reviews. And ill reviews would be mild if it were me.




So buddy comes and welds over all the leaks currently in my Wood Doctor Boiler and maybe I'm leak-free all next season . . . "Maybe!".

What worries me is this crappy stainless steel this Wood Doctor furnace is made out of! :rant:

It's supposed to be 409 stainless but it's about as resistant to corrosion as an old soup can! 

I just have this feeling that year after year I'm gonna find myself facing the same problem . . . :sword: 

All I can do is document it all and pass it along to anybody who's interested!


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## django

Howdy all, I can't believe it has been over 8 years since I started this thread!
I also am amazed at how popular arboristsite has become, but I am not surprised. It's a phenominal website.Haven't posted in a long time but my homemade mild steel OWB is still going strong. I do scrape it down and oil it every spring, mostly because I don't want to build another one anytime soon.
Sorry to hear of your troubles Leaky, but I am not surprised. 409 is vey low grade stainless, and if I remember correctly, is used mainly for car exhausts on cheaper cars. I have a co-worker who bought a Pacific Western a few years back and went through some major headaches with leaks, and actually had to return it to Thunder Bay Ontario to exchange it-At HIS expense.
I can guarantee you I would not have done that. But the weld and material quality were sub par. As a side note ( I have not read all of the posts so I may be repeating something someone else has said) one of the best things i have done with my stove is line it with firebrick. What a huge difference in smoke, ash content and longer burn times. I initially though this would not help, but it has and in a big way. highly recommended.
Stay warm
Django.


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## CalGray

*What to Buy*

Hello,

I am new to this site and I just joined cause I am going to buy an outdoor wood burner in next month or so. I have read through a lot of posts here but they go back a number of years... hoping for updated info.

I am Looking at Central, Heatmor, and Profab/Empyre Pro Series.

Heating old leaky farm house 3000 sq ft, plus 3 car garage and hotwater for house. (Maybe hook up the pool as well but am told this burns a lot of wood.)

Questions I have and that I am hoping for some basic advice on:
Maryland law says you gotta run a gasification stove.

Heatmor is really expensive 200 btu ($10,400).. is it worth it? 
Empyre/profab 200k btu ($6800.)
Central Classic 500k btu (not gasification) ($7600)

May be able to buy a one year used Central 500 btu for $5000

Are the gasification stoves that much cleaner and more efficient?
will a 200k btu rating handle what I am looking for?

Thanks Cal


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## Techstuf

> So I let my cheap redneck ways take over and thought about a cheap 200 dollar tin shed with a grave floor. 20 ft. or so from the house.
> With a double wood burning 55 gallon drums inside. Heat ducks with blowers running into the house taking heat out of the shed with out the smoke.




Way to go Raymond.


5 years on an inexpensive double barrel system here. Works great, and eminently moddable. Darned efficient and durable.



Blessings in Christ Yeshua


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## donho

well heres my two cents first off mine as I call it IS A BOILER not a wood stove its made by Royall and ditto to most of the things said in this post about adding water it introduces air into the system and makes for premature rot mine does not I look for a long time and only found TWO closed systems also My boiler is ASME welded and it shows and yes the components are off the shelf stats and blower etc. it also has grates (shaker) if want to burn coal OR SHOULD I SAY HAVE TO. I load it once a day when its 0 degrees f out yes once in 24 hrs and empty the ashes about once or twice a month depending on whats going in it. I WOULD BUY IT AGAIN IT WORKS GREAT ! my friend has a stainless steel unit and had to send it back to have it repaired as stainless does crack in time and the factory now has him putting only rain water in it for make up water. I didn't want floats etc. mine is just like any other boiler but fired by wood NOT AN OPEN SYSTEM THAT HAS PROBLEMS AND THE WELDS IN IT ARE TOP NOTCH! :greenchainsaw::greenchainsaw:


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## donho

*the best to buy!*

I bought the Royall and it is top of the line and preasurized not a water stove its asme welded of heavy boiler plate  1/4 inch plus I load it once a day in zero degrees f I looked and looked at all the hype and being in the business for some 30 plus years I wanted the best I could find. any questions? thanks :greenchainsaw:


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## Dobeman

*Suggestions on New OWB for 4000+ sq ft home*

I am really on the fence about what system to have installed for my home. It is approximately 15 years old and is a little over 4000 sq ft. Decent insulation, but not great. I would want to heat with wood in the winter but only use LP gas in the warmer months (dont' want to be buring wood just for the water heater). obviously there are quite a few opinions out there. I am great at cutting /splitting wood, but not so great at fixing appliances, so I want something that is as maintence free as possible (other than general care). Live in north central illinois, so winters are moderate- obviously a few below zero days, but mostly lows in the teens. Want the best quality my money can buy. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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