# MS660 or 070



## Tim_10 (Mar 19, 2018)

I'm new to CS milling and need some advice from forum members.
Milling product is a Granberg 36" Mark IV. Not sure I will ever need the full 36" but I got it just in case I need it. 
Was planning on using a Poulan 8500 to mill with but was advised by other forum members to not use it so I'm taking a step back and looking at my other options.
I plan on milling currently Beetle Kill Pine and Pistachio.
Browsing through my local area CL I've came across a Stihl MS 660 with 36" bar (stock) for $800 and a Stihl 070 with 30" bar (with a 090 piston and cylinder) for $650.
What do you think would suit me best? Also what chain would be best to mill those types of wood?
Thank you all in advance for the advice!


----------



## Brian72 (Mar 19, 2018)

I say get the biggest saw possible! I have a 661 with a 36" bar and I'm considering upgrading. The saw does fine but I've had several logs I needed a bigger bar. The 661 has plenty of power but the bigger saws have better torque and oilers for the long bars. I'd love to grab an 090 or something similar. I use mostly Stihl chain but also have a few loops of Carlton ripping chain. Both work well. The Carlton leaves a smoother cut.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## BobL (Mar 19, 2018)

Tim_10 said:


> . . . . Not sure I will ever need the full 36" but I got it just in case I need it.


Odds are you will need it.



> What do you think would suit me best?


It really depends on the conditions of the saws.
Ordinarily I would recommend the 661, lighter and enough power for a 36" bar (30" max cut") but if it's been hammered it will not last long and not cut all that well.
Like wise the 090 - its been modified, how confident of them having done a good job of this are you? 
It would really come into its own in bigger wood but you are going to be much more tired at the end of any milling day using it

Remember even on a 30" diameter log only a couple of cuts are the full 30" and the rest are all smaller than this.
In small logs the limit to cutting speed is chain speed. 
The 661 has a much higher chain speed so in smaller logs, the only way the 090 will keep up is to really lower the rakers. 
However lowering the rakers to improve cutting speed will slow it down on wider cuts.



> Also what chain would be best to mill those types of wood?


Any quality chain will work OK - its how you set up the chain that is really important.


----------



## cre73 (Mar 19, 2018)

I have built clones of both of these saws. I am using the 660 for milling. I would not want to horse the 070 around like I do with the 660.


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 19, 2018)

Thank you for all the replies thus far.

To throw in the mix, what about a Stihl 084? Seller is firm @ $700.

Just trying to assess all my options and make the wisest choice.

What are these clones you speak of? How do they run compared to Stock OEM chainsaws? It's not one of those Chinese knockoffs is it?


----------



## AgTech4020 (Mar 20, 2018)

Tim_10 said:


> Thank you for all the replies thus far.
> 
> To throw in the mix, what about a Stihl 084? Seller is firm @ $700.
> 
> ...



Beware of the 084 as Stihl has discontinued most parts and the aftermarket suppliers never offered much. Shoot a used muffler brings $200. 

Personally I’m a fan of the Chinese clones. I purchased a 660 clone with a big bore kit on sale for $170 including shipping. Swap out a handful of parts for OEM and you have one tough cheap saw. I didn’t figure mine would hold up under prolonged use but it has proved me wrong. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 20, 2018)

@BobL so you mentioned 661...would a 660 suffice? A little background on the saws that I've gathered...The 660 has had two owners. First owner it was his backup saw that he seldom used and current owner bought it from buddy (first owner) for a falling job and is now moving out of state so he's selling it. Pics of saw are attached. The 070/090 is OEM with aftermarket parts, so I'm not sure if its a clone or not. Also regarding the chain setup, what would be best for the softwood (pine) vs hardwood (pistachio). I currently just have an Oregon ripping chain which is just the 10 degree angle chain.

What's your guys opinion on a Husky 394XP for $375? Just saw one pop up on my local CL. Pic attached.





Looked up those clones a little bit...looks like a fun project for my son and I. @AgTech4020 on your clone, what OEM parts did you use?

Also CS milling won't be an everyday thing for me, just an every once in awhile (couple times a year possibly). It'd be nice to do it more often but job and family come first.


----------



## Brian72 (Mar 20, 2018)

Both of those saws look very clean and would do fine for milling. That 394 is a very good price. Very comparable to the 660. You're correct about most milling chain. Just a different angled tooth. I've got a few Carlton chains from Baileys. It works well but isn't necessary. I also use regular Stihl yellow chain(non-safety). Get some good files too. Much more sharpening involved with milling. It's an enjoyable hobby.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## AgTech4020 (Mar 20, 2018)

Tim_10 said:


> @BobL so you mentioned 661...would a 660 suffice? A little background on the saws that I've gathered...The 660 has had two owners. First owner it was his backup saw that he seldom used and current owner bought it from buddy (first owner) for a falling job and is now moving out of state so he's selling it. Pics of saw are attached. The 070/090 is OEM with aftermarket parts, so I'm not sure if its a clone or not. Also regarding the chain setup, what would be best for the softwood (pine) vs hardwood (pistachio). I currently just have an Oregon ripping chain which is just the 10 degree angle chain.
> 
> What's your guys opinion on a Husky 394XP for $375? Just saw one pop up on my local CL. Pic attached.View attachment 640687
> View attachment 640688
> ...



I use OEM crank case and cylinder gaskets, crank seals, piston pin bearing, bar studs, and chain adjustment assembly. It is recommended to use Caber or OEM piston rings however I’ve personally had no trouble with what came with the kit. One of the kit saws has well over 100 tanks of fuel through it and has had no serious issues. I will note that the big bore has more vibration then the OEM.

I would note however that I don’t feel a clone saw is a replacement for an OEM. They make great occasional use saws or backup saws. I have a friend that uses them to train new operators and rough environments. 

As a side note the 661 saws are far more fuel efficient then the 660’s if that factors in for you. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 20, 2018)

What's the availability of replacement parts on these saws? With that being a good price on the 374 just seeing if there is replacement parts, if needed. Considering I could buy that plus replacements if needed for less than the 660 at $800.

@Brian72 in regards to chains, is there any better than the other in softwood vs hardwood, green wood vs dried wood? I've read different things, skip chain, full chisel, semi chisel...

I definitely don't mind sharpening...I find it relaxing to hand sharpen all my old hand saws!


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 20, 2018)

With the 394 being a good price, do you think it's worth the hassle to look at the piston? or just as long as it's idling and running good that'll be sufficient?


----------



## Brian72 (Mar 20, 2018)

Tim_10 said:


> What's the availability of replacement parts on these saws? With that being a good price on the 374 just seeing if there is replacement parts, if needed. Considering I could buy that plus replacements if needed for less than the 660 at $800.
> 
> @Brian72 in regards to chains, is there any better than the other in softwood vs hardwood, green wood vs dried wood? I've read different things, skip chain, full chisel, semi chisel...
> 
> I definitely don't mind sharpening...I find it relaxing to hand sharpen all my old hand saws!


Parts shouldn't be a problem for any of these saws. Many dealers are members in these forums too. I haven't done a great amount of milling but I just use what I have. It's a hobby for me so I try not to over-complicate things but you'll get great advice from Bob and others. It really is a learning process.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## Brian72 (Mar 20, 2018)

Tim_10 said:


> With the 394 being a good price, do you think it's worth the hassle to look at the piston? or just as long as it's idling and running good that'll be sufficient?


Sure wouldn't hurt if possible. 

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## Mad Professor (Mar 20, 2018)

For chain speed in smaller stuff for 070/090 why not go to a 8 or 9 pin sprocket? Or are finding those like hens teeth? maybe the hot saws guys have source?


----------



## rarefish383 (Mar 20, 2018)

I use a 660 with 36" bar. I replaced my Dad's old Homelite Super 1050 with it. The 1050 is 100CC's and runs 404 chain. My 660 is 91CC's with 3/8. I don't notice much difference in speed of cut. The 660 is smoother and quieter. The 1050 doesn't have a decomp valve so it's harder to start. If I nick a nail with the 660 it wipes out the whole chain. If I hit one with the 1050 it only clips a couple teeth and you really don't notice it unless you hit a couple of them. Don't know if the the 660 wipes out all of the teeth because of the much faster chain speed or the smaller teeth. I just picked up another running 1050 at an auction last week with a 24" bar for $150. I think I'll put it on a mill for squaring beams for a log cabin. Some of the old name brand saws are a viable starter saw, still have good parts supplies, and are cheaper. I'm glad I started with my 1050 before I went out and dropped $1200 on a new saw. Do you have a use for a big saw if it turns out you don't like milling? I passed on another 660 at the same auction that sold for $450. I'd rather have a bunch of 1050's, but I'm kinda strange like that, Joe.


----------



## BobL (Mar 21, 2018)

Mad Professor said:


> For chain speed in smaller stuff for 070/090 why not go to a 8 or 9 pin sprocket? Or are finding those like hens teeth? maybe the hot saws guys have source?


8pin sprockets are available at you local supplier and Madsens has the higher count sprockets. I'd be running an 8 pin on the 660 in <30" wood anyway and adjust the rakers to suit.

Optimum milling typically happens between max Torque and Max HP RPMS
The 660 has max torque at 6500 rpm and max HP at 9500.
The 090 has max torque @5000 rpm and I could not find max HP RPMS but it has a Max RPM full stop of 8000 so lets say max power is ~7500 rpm.
The narrower the cut the closer to max HP RPM you can cut.
So the 660 will have a 9500/7500 or 25% faster working chain speed in small wood.
If you wanted to match the chain speeds the 090 will need to run 10 pin sprocket to the 660's 8 pin.

Like I said you can always gain a faster cutting speed by dropping the rakers dramatically on the 090 as nothing will stop in narrow wood. But the same raker setting may bog the saw down in wider wood.
The other thing you can do is run chain loops with lower depth rakers on the 090 although I find swapping out loops while milling a bit of a PITA .
With a 660 you can also run lopro and get a major cutting speed advantage from that. AN 090 will probably stretch Lopro too much. Well it would certainly do that in the sort of wood I cut.

You could make either saw do the job in small wood but I don't think there'd be that much difference.


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 21, 2018)

rarefish383 said:


> I use a 660 with 36" bar. I replaced my Dad's old Homelite Super 1050 with it. The 1050 is 100CC's and runs 404 chain. My 660 is 91CC's with 3/8. I don't notice much difference in speed of cut. The 660 is smoother and quieter. The 1050 doesn't have a decomp valve so it's harder to start. If I nick a nail with the 660 it wipes out the whole chain. If I hit one with the 1050 it only clips a couple teeth and you really don't notice it unless you hit a couple of them. Don't know if the the 660 wipes out all of the teeth because of the much faster chain speed or the smaller teeth. I just picked up another running 1050 at an auction last week with a 24" bar for $150. I think I'll put it on a mill for squaring beams for a log cabin. Some of the old name brand saws are a viable starter saw, still have good parts supplies, and are cheaper. I'm glad I started with my 1050 before I went out and dropped $1200 on a new saw. Do you have a use for a big saw if it turns out you don't like milling? I passed on another 660 at the same auction that sold for $450. I'd rather have a bunch of 1050's, but I'm kinda strange like that, Joe.



So I was in talks with a seller in my area regarding a Homelite XP 1100 but was told by another AS member it's more of a collectors saw and parts are almost unobtainable. The seller had made some repairs to it but hadn't tested it yet under load. So I let that one go.

"Do you have a use for a big saw if it turns out you don't like milling?" I think there's always a use for a big saw!! I don't see myself not liking it though.

I think I'm going to get the 394XP depending on if the seller gets back to me tomrrow. Reason being comparable to the 660, parts availability, price for a first milling saw, and currently I don't have logs > 30" in diameter.


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 21, 2018)

BobL said:


> 8pin sprockets are available at you local supplier and Madsens has the higher count sprockets. I'd be running an 8 pin on the 660 in <30" wood anyway and adjust the rakers to suit.
> 
> Optimum milling typically happens between max Torque and Max HP RPMS
> The 660 has max torque at 6500 rpm and max HP at 9500.
> ...



Thank you for all this information!


----------



## Tim_10 (Mar 21, 2018)

So guys the 394xp seller never returned messages/calls.
070 seller, same issue.

Current possible options are 660 from AS member or I'm still debating on possibly that Homelite XP1100 (contacted seller again and he still has it)

What's the CS millers thoughts on that Homelite?

All input is much appreciated!


----------



## Marine5068 (Mar 21, 2018)

BobL said:


> Odds are you will need it.
> 
> 
> It really depends on the conditions of the saws.
> ...


I try to read all that you write on here Bob.
We all know that you've been milling a lot for some time now and like to learn from a master.
Just a question about what you do with all your milled wood?
Do you ever sell it off as planks or live edge stuff?
I know that "live edge" is all the rage right now. They're even selling kits for 2" thick live edge white pine table tops in Lowe's now I see.
I'm pretty handy so I'd like to cash in on some maybe.


----------



## BobL (Mar 22, 2018)

Hi Marine5068,

Only about 1/3rd of what I cut with my CSMs are mine to do with as I like. I mainly mill the logs at a mates (Jeff) tree lopping yard (20 miles/30 minutes away) and the logs are brought back to the yard by Jeff's son (Ross) who also does the tree felling.
The timber I mill is a ~3 way split between Jeff Ross and Myself. Neither Jeff or Ross have done much with their share of the timber apart from using some slabs in nature playgrounds.
Ross and Jeff bring back a lot of logs to the yard and most of these are prepared and sold for nature playgrounds. A single nature playground might use 3-4 bigger and dozens of smaller logs. I get to pick out the better logs and milled these but a few years ago Jeff bough a BSM and we use that to mill the timber and partially prepare logs and beams for nature playgrounds. I haven't used my CSM for about 2 years because the BSM can everything we want to do at the moment. 

I have milled at other places, including on a friend's farm about 250 miles away where I milled about 30 logs for them while showing them how to mill with their 3120 and Granberg. This was all just for fun. They no longer mill their own timber as they have a friend ob a nearby property who has a Lucas and other pro BSMer nearby who will come around and pick up logs from their farm and take it back to his place and mill them there - for a fee of course.

Of the stuff I have milled, I have probably sold ~20%$, most of this being live edged stuff. I have given away or traded about 20% (also nearly all lived edged) and the termites and poor storage has led to about 10% loss. I have used personally < 10% of what I have cut. Live edge is indeed popular but I don't charge any more for it. 

Just down the road from the treehoppers yard is a CSMer who has a big Cooksaw BSM and he does really nice work. Jeff bought his old BSM. The Cooksaw miller also has a kiln and uses really good storage methods so his slabs are premium quality. I'm pretty sure he goes out of his way to secure premium logs and charges accordingly. We can't compete with him s we don't even try.

I never got into CSMing to make any money. I got into it to gain access to craft wood and found I like building mills and using them. I am a hopeless and impatient salesman and get no joy out of selling the timber almost irrespective of the price that I get paid. When I advertise the timber for sale, because it's 20 miles away from my place I hate the tyre kickers and the haggling and the running around trying to satisfy people ridiculous needs. Often people say they will meet me at the yard and never turn up. These days I tell them I will be at the yard @ X/Y/Z to do something else and they have to be there or miss out. I would rather give the timber away than go through all this BS.


----------



## Marine5068 (Mar 23, 2018)

BobL said:


> Hi Marine5068,
> 
> Only about 1/3rd of what I cut with my CSMs are mine to do with as I like. I mainly mill the logs at a mates (Jeff) tree lopping yard (20 miles/30 minutes away) and the logs are brought back to the yard by Jeff's son (Ross) who also does the tree felling.
> The timber I mill is a ~3 way split between Jeff Ross and Myself. Neither Jeff or Ross have done much with their share of the timber apart from using some slabs in nature playgrounds.
> ...


All sounds good mate. Sounds like you guys do a lot for your communities and I applaud you for that.
I have an uncle that lives in Perth, but originally born in Grenada West Indies. 
Not sure exactly where but he's near the coast I think. He once told me that he walks to the ocean and swims in it every morning.
He's into his 80's now and surname is Banfield. Nice fellow.
Thanks for a peek inside the life of Bob...lol.
We all like your posts and love seeing the Aussie woods and what you're using them for.


----------



## BobL (Mar 23, 2018)

Marine5068 said:


> All sounds good mate. Sounds like you guys do a lot for your communities and I applaud you for that.


Thanks


> I have an uncle that lives in Perth, but originally born in Grenada West Indies


.
Not sure exactly where but he's near the coast I think. He once told me that he walks to the ocean and swims in it every morning.[/QUOTE]
Perth city centre is about 7 miles inland from the coast but there are beachside suburbs that run north south along the coast for almost 100 miles.
Its about a 10 miles drive for us to take our dogs to the nearest dog beach. They love it so much.
About a mile from put place there is a park with a small patch of native bush and the get to go there every day.

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Robin Wood (Mar 25, 2018)

070/090 will out cut 660, 394 and many others in big wood. their torque is unrivaled


----------



## sawfun (Mar 29, 2018)

+1 on the 070/090. It's not like you are carrying the saw all day through the woods so the weight should not be an issue. You will seriously never want for power. Make sure you have a 6 shoe clutch on that saw rather than the 3 shoe.


----------

