# Woodmaster vs Central Boiler advice please



## HUSKYMAN (Jan 26, 2007)

I am getting a OWB in a couple months for a new house I am building. I will be heating a 1700 sq ft house and about a 1500 sq ft pole barn, along with all my hot water. 

I am leaning towards Central Boiler because I know two guys who have them and they appear to be very well made. I also like the urethane firebox insulation vs the fiberglass used in other models. The problem the CB is that the dealer in my county sucks apparently, and is good for buying the unit only and is pretty useless as far as installation. 

There is a Woodmaster dealer fairly close and the 4400 looks like a good model, and is significantly cheaper than the CB 5036. The Woodmaster appears to be a very simple design and easy to maintain. 

I am looking for a little first hand experience with both these models, and why one may be a better choice than the other. Thanks


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 26, 2007)

Well, chalk up two no account CB dealers as my local dealer lost them a sale too. Was a toss up for me, there are things I like about both designs. I really like my Woodmaster for the round chamber being a snap to keep cleaned of buildup and fewer welds. The heat baffle is neat but I don't think it traps the heat like the CB design. Unlike some I have no issues with efficiency. To heat my old 2000 foot house and my 28x24 shop last year I burned (about) 4-5 cords of wood in an air tight stove in the shop plus $3000.000 worth of gas for the house and water. Last year was mild but so is this one so far. This year I am heating both and my water. The Woodmaster has been on since Mid September and I would (guess again) that I have burned 4-5 cord. House is now set at 75 (old fart here) and shop is set at 65. I am thrilled with my wood usage. There is no issues with me on the insulation. As advertised the snow will remain on the roof of the Woodmaster for the same amount of time it remains on the house roof. If it rots or losses it ability to insulate it can be replaced, try that with a CB.There is heat loss to the outside from the door, like all others, when the draft is off but when the draft fan is on the door is also cold to the touch. I have said it on here before, I have never talked to an unsatisfied OWB owner, only read about them and there is a ton of them burning around here. 5 or 6 within sight of my place all differant makes. I'd go with the best dealer, and company that has been around a while.


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 26, 2007)

How do you like the forced draft? I have access to some pretty good hardwood, I will be burning mostly maple, oak, and beech with some crap wood mixed in. Does the forced draft keep the ashes to a minimum and the chimney pretty clean? 

Woodmaster is advertising $5200 for the 4400, which is about $1000 cheaper than the CB


Also how is the access to the pipes, fittings, etc on the Woodmaster? Seems like the CB has pretty good access


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## grandpatractor (Jan 27, 2007)

I think the woodmaster makes a good boiler. They all have their good and bad but just like saws a good dealer means alot.


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## liberty (Jan 27, 2007)

What about the Wood Doctor? I am looking at these units.


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 27, 2007)

HUSKYMAN said:


> How do you like the forced draft? I have access to some pretty good hardwood, I will be burning mostly maple, oak, and beech with some crap wood mixed in. Does the forced draft keep the ashes to a minimum and the chimney pretty clean?
> 
> Woodmaster is advertising $5200 for the 4400, which is about $1000 cheaper than the CB
> 
> ...



The amount of ashes depends entirely on what you are burning. If you read my posts (rants?) you see that I have been burning some sycamore and Id guess for every pick up load of wood burned you would haul away a third of a load of ashes. With oak, maybe two 5 gallon cans for same amount of wood burned. Ashes are not really much of a pain with an OWB, you are outside so dust isn't an issue, except on Sunday AM, LOL, and they are easy to shovel out and throw in the yard.

Forced draft vs natural? A natural draft will recover the water temp more slowly and if you read the specs you will notice that forced draft stoves will have less water capacity than the ones that use natural draft. I am no engineer but Id say and small capacity (for water) boiler with natural draft would be a loser because of not being able to pick up heating loads fast enough and a forced draft with a big capacity for water would be less efficient than one with a smaller capacity. The 4400 water capacity is much smaller than a CB unit of similar heating capacity. i am not saying the natural draft stoves wont heat,just that they depend on more BTUs being in storage in the water jacket than a (properly designed) forced draft unit.

I have not touched my chimney since I fired it and it does not need cleaning now. It has burned out a couple times Thu I am aware of.

The Woodmaster is wide open at the rear for access to the pump area.

As I said earlier there are 5-6 OWBs almost within eye sight and they are all different makes, Heatmore, CB, Heatsource1, Woodmaster, Wooddoctor, Mahoning and a couple I cant recall oldest is maybe 4 years? Given that they are not losing vast amounts of heat under ground due to poor installations they all seem to burn the same amounts of wood given what they are being asked to do. I really don't see any difference to make noise about. They will burn more wood than a stove that is heating a room or two while leaving the rest of the home cold as they very well should. I went with forced draft because i have lots of acreage in woods but little of it is our classic "fire woods" and I thought that it would allow easier burning of the lessor quality stuff I happen to own.


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## hockeypuck (Jan 27, 2007)

*woodmaster and cb*

I narrowed it down to these two and choose the woodmaster. The wood doctor had too small a door compared to the others. I like the idea of a forced draft for burning green wood and junk wood, especially in the warmer months when there is longer down times between burn cycles. The wood master is easier to setup. You just need 4 pavers instead of making a large flat area for the CB. I have had no problems with the woodmaster. I heat 2000 square feet of living space. 

Puck


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 27, 2007)

How long have you owned your unit? 

Is the Woodmaster hot water heater setup similar to Central Boiler's?


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## hockeypuck (Jan 27, 2007)

*woodmaster*

I bought it last september.

It has operated without issue.

puck

PS. What everyou do, make sure you spend the extra money for good ground piping. I went with the thermal-pex which has two 1" pex lines in an insulated 5 inch black pipe. Foam insulated, not bubble wrapped. You only want to dig that ditch once, so do it right. The lines are expensive (10 bucks a foot) but well worth it.


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 27, 2007)

I plan on going with Thermoplex. Its all going on the house loan so at least the extra cost is tax deductible:biggrinbounce2:


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## grandpatractor (Jan 27, 2007)

Will you be going with infloor or forced air. I have infloor in both house and shed and also forced in the house with central air. nothin nicer than a warm floor in sthe downstairs area. or the shop:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## windthrown (Jan 27, 2007)

*Central Boiler here...*

If we had to do it all over again (not that we have to), I would do exactly what we did and buy a CB (again). 

Personally after a lot of reaserch on OWBs, looking around, and asking for references from plumbing and heating and energy companies here, we bought a Central Boiler. Woodmaster, Taylor and Central Boiler are the best OWBs overall I think. We have a good CB dealer here in Oregon but I did not have to rely on him for much. CB has excellent online support at the factory if your local dealer is a dolt. They speak real live English (what a change from everything else that I call for tech support!), and they know what they are selling and how to install various systems. CB has the best 25 year warantee out there. They have also been around (certaily avoid any new companies selling OWBs, they seem to fold fast). CB also has nice THICK steel and good qulity materials. I chose them mainly for the overkill aspect. I poured a 4" concrete slab for it; why mess with anything else? Insulation will never go bad on a CB... it rains here constantly and there is no problem with the CB insulation. We had a problem with the control readout after a year (it was working, just did not state the temp) and CB replaced it, no problem.

I would not bother with a forced air draft system. More parts to fail over time, and natural convection is more than adequate to keep air on the fire and bring it up to temp. Our boiler will overshoot and undershoot about 5 degrees from setting. We set it at 165 F, where the unit will shut the damper. It opens at 155 F. So overall it swings from 150 F to 170 F. The speed of flame recovery is not really an issue for the draft system. As for the design of the firebox, round or square or whatever is not going to be a real difference. Nether is the baffle system from what I have seen. Most are adequate. I would avoid auger or grated firebox floor systems though. More stuff to clog up and deal with. The CB has a large deep ash pan and it needs ash cleaning depending on the type of wood burned. You want a good ash layer for coals to burn in though, so you do not want the bed of the firebox to be too clean. I clean our boiler ashes about once a month in winter when the ashes get up to the lower level of the door. I use them on the gardens as fertylizer. 

We burn mostly Doug for, alder, oak and madrone, and some maple and willow. We also burn wet, bug eaten and dry rot wood, green wood, and old lumber scraps. Anything but treated wood. I also avoid burning plywood and strandboard becasue it has a lot of resin in it. The amount of wood burned will be directly porportional to the outside temerature, heat demand and heat losses in your house. You want to avoid heat loss in the PEX lines to the boiler from the house, and you want to bury them 2 ft deep where you live. Ground water is the biggest casue of heat loss in the PEX lines. To avoid that make sure that your lines are water tight and insulated. You can buy the expensive stuff, or make your own. They sell the stuff that I designed on Ebay now. I took 4 inch corrugated black drain pipe and stuffed them with a pair of (one red and one blue) foam sleeved insulated pex lines. Maybe R-4 at best, but the ground will insulate your pipes more than anything else. 

The access panel for the plumbing and electrical in the CB usit is more than adequate for the job. CB has a second pair of intake and outlet ports drilled and tapped so that you can expand the system if you want to upgrade with a second heating loop. There is also more than enough room in the panel for Taco pumps and fittings, as well as bypass valves and hose bibbs. I designed and added a lot more stuff in there than they call for. One way check-valves, drain and fill valves, return temp gauge, etc. Also we bought a plain steel box. CB has a stainless option, but stainless does not conduct heat as well, and it is a grand more. Not worth it or needed from what I have seen. Our system has zero rust after a season and a half of use. 

Basically, after the system was installed, all we have had to do is keep it filled with wood. I did the entire design and install myself. I am a degreed engineer and I was a plumber and part time electrician for several years, so this was not that hard for me. Our design was somewhat complicated with an existing solar water heater to tap into, and a pressurized electric hydronic floor heating system. I used 2 flat plate heat exchanges to heat the hot water and house floor loop with. Sizing the heat exchangers was an issue, and CB phone support not only helped me size them, but they got it perfectly matched. Flat plate is more expensive, but they recover heat faster than side arm units. The colored PEX was a pain to get through our local HW store, and the PEX to brass fittings are rediculously expensive. 

Anyway, good luck with your decision process. Also keep in mind that there is a lot of anti-OWB laws being passed lately, especially in the Atlantic and New England states. You can also look over on the Mother Earth News Forum for a LOT of posted information and debates about different OWB manufactures and OWB vs indoor wood stoves, etc. Similar to AS, but more flame wars and passion about OWB brand loyalty.


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 27, 2007)

What is the warrantee on the Woodmaster? I couldnt find it on their website or the literature they sent me. 

I am not famailiar with the proper terms, but I am having a hydronic heat system with baseboard radiators installed in the house. I grew up with this setup in my parents house and I can't stand the forced air system in my current house. So the wood boiler will just be plumbed into my propane boiler and the propane boiler will serve as my backup.


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## windthrown (Jan 27, 2007)

*Propane Central Boiler option*



HUSKYMAN said:


> What is the warrantee on the Woodmaster? I couldnt find it on their website or the literature they sent me.
> 
> I am not famailiar with the proper terms, but I am having a hydronic heat system with baseboard radiators installed in the house. I grew up with this setup in my parents house and I can't stand the forced air system in my current house. So the wood boiler will just be plumbed into my propane boiler and the propane boiler will serve as my backup.



Hydronic baseboard heating system is proper enough of a term. 

If you do not have the propane boiler already you can get a CB unit that has dual heat; propane and wood. You can also get them for burning natural gas and wood, or heating oil and wood. Thus they are capable of working as their own backup systems. Also, if you do not have a pressurized hydronic system in your house, you can feed the floor system directly with the CB boiler low pressure hot water loop. I would have done it that way if we did not already have an electric hydronic floor heating system already installed here. With a pressurized hydronic system you need to tie the boiler loop into the floor heating system with a heat exchanger. The great thing about the "better" OWBs is that they are not pressurized systems. Far safer that way. By the way, CB also has a UL rating. I do not know what other ones do.


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 27, 2007)

HUSKYMAN said:


> What is the warrantee on the Woodmaster? I couldnt find it on their website or the literature they sent me.
> 
> I am not famailiar with the proper terms, but I am having a hydronic heat system with baseboard radiators installed in the house. I grew up with this setup in my parents house and I can't stand the forced air system in my current house. So the wood boiler will just be plumbed into my propane boiler and the propane boiler will serve as my backup.



The warrenty is 1 year replacement on any defective part and replacement of entire furnace if it leaks. After one year they are warrentied for leakage only and they pay 90% of repair costs. Each year thereafter they pay another 10% less, meaning 80, 70 60 etc. Like everyone else they will not pay for rot out due to ash corosion, neglect, da da da. and have a lifetime $300 coupon for another Woodmaster purchase, big whoopie, LOL. Woodmaster claims to have the thickest jacket in the industry and when a person looks at the shipping weight vs over all size, capacity etc that would seem to be correct. To tell you the truth I realy dont see a lot to choose from as long as you stay with a Mfg that has been in business for a while and the dealer seems to be OK. Any furnace will rot out if you neglect it and as long as it was reasonably put together rust should not be a problem in the periods any of them are warrentied. The electrical gizmos are all Std off the shelf items no matter who welds them up and has decals made. Mine is working with my forced air furnace in the house and heating my shop with a Geo Metro radiator, fan and shroud and a line voltage thermostat/


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## porta mill (Jan 27, 2007)

*wood master / central boiler*

new to this site 
there is another out door wood stove Co. to look into EMPYRE made by profab very good unit . I have one and love it


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## grandpatractor (Jan 27, 2007)

*Welcome!*

what type of air induction does your empyre have? Is it in the door or pipes along the side. I like the ash pan cleanout-very simple


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## porta mill (Jan 28, 2007)

*wood master /central bioler*

the empry have both a door fan induction and they have tubes aon the sides . I have the one with the tubes on the sides . fast recovery times and burns anything you feed it green wood is big as you can fit through the door . I also burn the chips from my chippper in the spring and fall or when it is not extreamly clod out burnsbest.com has a informative web site on them


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2007)

In a cold climate like MI forced air draft is very advantageous as your home will cool down while the boiler comes up to temp. The faster you can get the boiler up to temp the less chance this has of happening. Its not really a issue when its in the 20 at night, but when it drops down bellow zero its a major issue.
I would also make sure you size your circ pumps and heat exchangers on the conservative side.
As for insulated pipe. After trying the insulated pex type stuff that comes on a roll and insul-seal that come sin rigid 8 foot lengths the clear winner is insul-seal.


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 28, 2007)

I haven't heard of insul-seal. The pex that you tried, was it the $12/ft foam no hassle insulated stuff?


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## windthrown (Jan 28, 2007)

*Not so...*



bwalker said:


> In a cold climate like MI forced air draft is very advantageous as your home will cool down while the boiler comes up to temp. The faster you can get the boiler up to temp the less chance this has of happening. Its not really a issue when its in the 20 at night, but when it drops down bellow zero its a major issue.
> I would also make sure you size your circ pumps and heat exchangers on the conservative side.
> As for insulated pipe. After trying the insulated pex type stuff that comes on a roll and insul-seal that come sin rigid 8 foot lengths the clear winner is insul-seal.



I beg to differ, but I have many friends in places like New Hampshire and Canada that have non-forced air damper OWBs and they do not allow the house to cool down between boiler draft cycles, even at 20 below zero. The heat stored in the water is more than enough to heat your house between cycles. Do not underestimate the energy of natural convection! Our flate place heat exchanger on our water heater has no pump and only uses natural convection, and the water in there stays really hot. It also gets into the teens around here... no cold house, and we have the smallest CB boiler that they had available, a large house, gobs of winows and vaulted ceilings. Outside temps are only a factor in the equation. Overall heat demand is the real issue. Compare an uninsulated house here vs a well insulated house in Michigan. Heat demand can be higher here even with higher temperatures. 
Do not be fooled...


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## porta mill (Jan 28, 2007)

for the extra money I think the power draft is the way to go but do some research , talk to pepole in your area to see what they use . before you buy something you are not happy with or will not meet your requirements. For insulation the stuff I used wasa 4"pvc with two inches of what seems to be a foam outer lotside then a plastic sheeting on the outside then the pex on the inside, expensive but buried 24"to 30 " below ground and there is no snow melt in the past I and I drove a tanker truck over it and did not have a problem


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## MS-310 (Jan 28, 2007)

We sell units that come with an 10 year warranty and 3/16 fire box thickness...timberwolfs are nat. draft and I really love them..plus you cant beat the price. Some thing that will heat 1500 to 1700 sqft for 3890...(thats even with a pump)


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2007)

> The pex that you tried, was it the $12/ft foam no hassle insulated stuff?


Thats the stuff.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2007)

> I beg to differ, but I have many friends in places like New Hampshire and Canada that have non-forced air damper OWBs and they do not allow the house to cool down between boiler draft cycles, even at 20 below zero.


 It depends on what type of heating system you have. With in floor lag time is a issue. Even with a forced draft boiler.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2007)

BTW if it where I looking into buying a boiler today I would look long and hard at a wood doctor smokeless boiler. More and more townships are passing ordinances restricting boilers and some out right banning them. I live in a very rural area and my TWP is working on a boiler regs as we speak.


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 28, 2007)

MS-310 said:


> We sell units that come with an 10 year warranty and 3/16 fire box thickness...timberwolfs are nat. draft and I really love them..plus you cant beat the price. Some thing that will heat 1500 to 1700 sqft for 3890...(thats even with a pump)



Don't forget I will be heating a 1500 sq ft barn and my hot water too...


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 28, 2007)

So other than having a fan that can fail someday what are the downsides to having a forced draft? 

Increased wood consumption?


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## grandpatractor (Jan 28, 2007)

If both my shed and house are calling for heat in the floors it will cool my stove off pretty quickly. There is a reason I put a programmable on the therm in the shed. I need to be around to keep filling wood it they are both going. I don't know if the stove would keep up without forced draft. it holds 300 gals of water. I also have a plate exchanger on the hot water and forced air for the upstairs in the house.
I like the way it looks when the coals are covering the air tubes and its like a forge going in there!


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## grandpatractor (Jan 28, 2007)

HUSKYMAN said:


> So other than having a fan that can fail someday what are the downsides to having a forced draft?
> 
> Increased wood consumption?



I think it can cool off the stove quicker if you do run low on coals and its still blowin cold air in. all i can think of?


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 28, 2007)

HUSKYMAN said:


> I haven't heard of insul-seal. The pex that you tried, was it the $12/ft foam no hassle insulated stuff?



Here is a picture. I am completely satisfied with it however it is not cheap. The other day we had a light snow that melted away in a couple days and you absolutely could not tell where my lines were buried to the house.

<IMG SRC=http://tinypic.com/24mxj01.jpg>


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 28, 2007)

Looks like you have the ash auger? I was thinking about not getting that feature. Looks like a good place for moist ashes to accumulate


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 28, 2007)

HUSKYMAN said:


> Looks like you have the ash auger? I was thinking about not getting that feature. Looks like a good place for moist ashes to accumulate



Nope, no ash auger. All Woodmasters have the hole in the firebox for the auger. The auger was enough extra money, $400 I think, that I decided to give it a try without. Still am not sure, flat point and a coal bucket works well.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2007)

I have a Heatmore with a auger and to be honest I find that you still need to shovel the ashes out by hand on a regular basis. I place some wire mesh over my wheelbarrow and just empty the contents of the boiler onto the mesh. the ash falls into the barrow and I shovel the coals and carbon back in to be burnt.


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## windthrown (Jan 28, 2007)

*OWB ashes*



bwalker said:


> I have a Heatmore with a auger and to be honest I find that you still need to shovel the ashes out by hand on a regular basis. I place some wire mesh over my wheelbarrow and just empty the contents of the boiler onto the mesh. the ash falls into the barrow and I shovel the coals and carbon back in to be burnt.



I do the same thing here. I bought some hardware cloth (wire mesh) and stapled it to a wood frame that fits of the metal wheelbarrow. Then I shovel the ashes onto the mesh and screen out the coals. I toss them back into the fire to burn when I am done. I toss the ashes around the garden and trees.


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## windthrown (Jan 28, 2007)

*Draft in OWBs*



HUSKYMAN said:


> So other than having a fan that can fail someday what are the downsides to having a forced draft?
> 
> Increased wood consumption?



The downside from people that I talked to over on the Mother Earth News Forum was that they tend to have problems with the draft. Either too much or too little. One issue with a forced air draft is that you are blowing a lot of hot air out of the stack when they are on. That in turn seems to use more wood as you speculate, yes.


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## windthrown (Jan 28, 2007)

*Nope...*



bwalker said:


> It depends on what type of heating system you have. With in floor lag time is a issue. Even with a forced draft boiler.



I still have to disagree with you. Lag time is not an issue if you always have wood on your fire, regardless of heating system. If you let the fire go out, that is another issue. We have both a hot water heat exchanger and a pressurized hydronic floor heat exchanger here. Both are flat plate. Flat plate exchangers will recover heat faster than a side-arm system. The water heater HX runs with convection all the time. The floor system is triggered when the house gets below 69 F. The Taco pump comes on and circulates heated water in several loops below the house in a radiant floor system. 

I do not know how other boilers work, but if I set our boiler temp to 165, it usually cycles between 150 and 170 F. It opens as 155 and often times drops to 154-150 by the time the fire kicks the heat back up. The lowest it gets at that point is 150 F. Then it shuts off at 165 and usually overshoots to 166-170 after the damper is closed. The boiler loop is always supplying the house with hot water in the lines through the Taco pump, which circulates 27/7. That loop does not lose more than a few degrees by the time it gets into the house. Boiler temp can get dragged down by heat demand in the house, but then the aquastat sensor just opens the damper more often, more wood is burned and the boiler water is heated to meet that demand. 

No forced air draft is needed. The magic of convection (heat rises in gasses and liquids) is all that you need. If our heat demand ever exceeded the boiler here, I can always set the temp of the boiler water up higher. We do have milder winters here in Oregon, but 165 is the lowest setting that a CB water can be set to. I set the inside house temp at 70 F and it is never less than 69 in here. Ever. The hot water is always hot. No issues. If I needed more heat I could always set the boiler temp up higher. It will go as high as 195 F.


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2007)

> The downside from people that I talked to over on the Mother Earth News Forum was that they tend to have problems with the draft. Either too much or too little. One issue with a forced air draft is that you are blowing a lot of hot air out of the stack when they are on. That in turn seems to use more wood as you speculate, yes.


 that sounds like BS as everything I have heard says that forced draft boilers are more efficient.


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## WoodBurner44 (Jan 29, 2007)

*Forced Draft*

My Taylor 750 OWB needs the forced draft to burn. The little 'squirrel cage' fan is cycled on and off by a hydro stat in the water jacket and has an adjustable baffle that allows one to regulate the draft. Full open for a short time to get a fire started and then closed down just to the point that smoke forms a few inches from the top of the stack. That seems to give me the most efficient burn and allows me to burn wood that would not be considered good firewood. 
This particular type of unit seems to heat best and produce the least amount of creosote when the fire is burned fairly hot and fast and then the draft fan shuts off until the water cools enough to start the fan again. 
Another thing that helps save wood is to make an educated guess (based on your experience) and only load the amount of wood needed to keep the temp up for the time period until the next loading. Outside air temp, kind of wood and degree of seasoning are all variables that affect efficiency. 
I too, use a square edged shovel to clean the firebox and also screen the ashes for coals to start the next load. Much easier than trying to use paper, etc to start the fire.
I have found that well seasoned (two years) hickory will give a 36 to 48 hour burn in cold weather and that half rotted junk woods give a four hour burn in the same kind of weather. 
We probably use a little more wood heating with the OWB than the indoor stoves. But the advantages of burning wood of no value that needs to be cleaned up around the farm, unlimited domestic HOT water, and no dirt, ashes or smoke in the house make it my first choice.


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## MS-310 (Jan 29, 2007)

HUSKYMAN said:


> Don't forget I will be heating a 1500 sq ft barn and my hot water too...



We have bigger ones also....5000 7000 10,000 15,000

5000 is $4490
7000 is $5290
10,000 is $6800

The 7000 is a big stove a little bigger then the Cl5648.....they changed numbers from that now.
Lots of stuff to look at.... We like to be very good on price.
Any ??? Pm me.


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## windthrown (Jan 29, 2007)

*Bs?*



bwalker said:


> that sounds like BS as everything I have heard says that forced draft boilers are more efficient.



Well, my thermodynamics engineering education says it is not BS... 

Ignorance is bliss.


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2007)

> Well, my thermodynamics engineering education says it is not BS...
> 
> Ignorance is bliss.


 Im ignorant as to why a natural draft would be better. Since you have a thermo dynamics background please explain it in depth.opcorn:


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## grandpatractor (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm under the impression that the fire actually burns hotter with a forced draft and the air coming up thru the coals. just my 2 scents 
I think hotter would be a more complete burn?


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## ghitch75 (Jan 30, 2007)

well i'm not an thermodynamics engineer and i have worked almost every brand of boiler out there and the best way i can put it is your not smokin' hams your makin' heat and the worst out there is a centrel boiler(with n/a draft) and far as recovery time(up to 4 hours on start up) and mine dosen't do any better with the blower off and just with n/a draft...and i'm not sayin' you need to run the blower wide open(mine has a reastat) it just takes a small amount for blower to fire it hot(can recover form dead cold 45df to 180df in less than an hour) even with green wood!

as far as warrenty's go with any and i mean any dealer of owb's you would be better to wipe you [email protected]# with it than getting them to stand behind it even if you follow there giude lines for step and use they will find something you did wrong and you warrrenty will be VOILD!!

even the one's i sell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MS-310 (Jan 31, 2007)

Remember CB has a forced draft kit.... O my god some one really said it with the warrenty's, I never had to deal with any of are stoves but its a small company. CB warrenty really sucks....
Jack


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## windthrown (Jan 31, 2007)

*CB warantee*



MS-310 said:


> Remember CB has a forced draft kit.... O my god some one really said it with the warrenty's, I never had to deal with any of are stoves but its a small company. CB warrenty really sucks....
> Jack



The CB warantee really sucks? You have any personal personal experience with that? Anything that has gone wrong with *our* CB has been replaced on the spot. New controller and aquastat after controller readout dial failed, unit still worked OK. Aquastat did not need replacing. A new damper door after I found that there was a small warp in the mount hinge. The dealer replaced entire damper door and hinge with a new one on the spot. As a result of the damper door not closing right, the unit boiled over. So he also gave us a free gallon of anti-corrosion fluid as well. I did not even ask for that. I had not even thought about losing corrosion inhibitor in the boil-over. So far, anything that has gone wrong with the CB unit (minor stuff) and they have replaced all parts at no cost, with no hassle and instantly. So from my personal experience I can say that the CB warantee is a good one, and they live up to it. 

While we are on the subject, we ordered out CB unit and paid for it expecting it to be delivered in 6 weeks. It came in 3 weeks. It was here before the pad was poured for it. Every time I have called the dealer he was there and/or called back. Every time I called the factroy they had a technical expert there to deal with my questions. Mainly with design, and sizing the heat exchangers for the unit with our given situation. The heat exchangers were and are a perfect fit for our heat needs here. The thing runs pretty flawlessly. Keep the fire going, and that's pretty much it. As for draft, I will get to that in the next post...


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## windthrown (Jan 31, 2007)

*Heat transfer in OWBs*

OK boys and girls, this is not a sales pitch to sell you lots of crap that you do not really need on an outdoor wood boiler. As a matter of fact, you can save money by not buying a lot of stuff that they sell on outdoor wood boilers. Why? Becasue a lot of the features are not really needed. In two cases in particular, stainless steel water jackets and forced air draft fan. 

Yes, CB does sell both the SS options and forced air drafts on their boilers. But you do not need either one. Strainless steel in particular is not great for several reasons. One is that it is really hard to weld SS. Welding fixes in the field are going to be really hard to do. Another reason is that SS is about $1,000 more expensive to buy. Another reason is that SS does not conduct heat as well as plain carbon steel does. And finally, in the case of CB units, their carbon steel is really thick stuff and it is not apt to rust through anyway. As long as you keep the right level of corrosion inhibitor in the water and tank (stays good for about 3 years before needing replaced) you will get no rust on that side of the boiler. Creosote is actually very mild on steel surfaces. I have the data and can post it if needed, but creosote will not cause a sttel tank to rust from the firebox side of the boiler. That leaves the ash area of the boiler. You can use Ashtrol in the ashes, which is basically agricultural lime to ballance the acid pH of ashes in your boiler pan to keep the ashes from rusting out the pan. I do not use it, and I do not have any rust in the firebox of my boiler. The place that the boiler is most apt to rust is if you are burning green or wet wood and it seeps into the ashes and gets trapped between the ashes and the steel. I scrape the ash pan down to the steel once a week with a plain garden hoe, and that loosens any chunks of ash and/or water that are next to the steel. Again, after using it for the better part of 2 heating seasons, there is no rust in our plain steel firebox. 

Now, on to forced air draft. Again, forced air drafts are specific to the design of the firebox. I can only say that in the case of the Central Boiler design they are not really needed. In actuality they are not needed in many designs of boilers out there on the market today. Yes, CB sells them as an option, becasue people like the ones on this forum seem to have it in their heads that a fan is somehow better than natural convection for moving gasses around in their boilers. In the case of the CB, the damper is more than enough to get the fire going and keep the fire hot. As someone else here stated, it can take longer to get the fire going with a natural draft than with a fan. That may be so, from a cold start. If you let the fire go out all the time and let the water get stone cold between firing, then you may indeed need a fan to get it going fast enough to heat your house. But in the case that you fill the unit with enough wood on a regular basis, like 2x a day, that will not be a problem. I can let our fire go out and the water will still stay above 120 before I can get more wood on it the next morning. There are always enough coals in there to light the fire with more logs tossed into the boiler the next morning. And from 120 to 165 it usually only takes about an hour to get there. And during that time the house is still 70 degrees, and the hot water is still hot from the night before. 

Now, as for the thermodynamics of a fan vs the magic of natural convection? As others here have pointed out, CB does sell fans on their units as an option. About 10% of their boilers are sold with them. That leaves 90% of the rest of us w/o forced air fans on our boilers. What makes our boilers work without fans? Simple. A principle of thermodynamics is that heated fluids and gasses rise. Why? Becasue warmer fluids and gasses are less dense than colder ones. Being less dense, they rise and float above the cooler mass. So, when the damper door opens, hot air escapes out the top of the smoke stack. That causes a vacuume in the boiler chamber, and that in turn causes the cold air outside the damper door to be sucked in to replace the hot air that escaped out the top of the boiler. That cold air then meets the flames of the burning wood inside the boiler, and is heated, that air rises becasue it is now less dense, and the process continues until the damper door closes. 

That whole process is called convection, one of the processes of heat transfer. It is one of the three basic processes to heat transfer. Convection, as described for gasses above, condution, and radiation. The energy that comes from your firewood in your boiler is radiated out in the form of low level light waves. We see some of that energy in the form of flames, and we feel most of that radiation in the form of heat. When the fire in the boiler is going, there is both radiant heat and convection heat being delivered to the surface of the steel in the firebox. A good boiler will have a heat trap above the firebox for keeping in some of the convection heat to allow it time to transfer to the steel. The radiated heat is also absorbed by the steel. Now the third process of heat transfer ocurs in the steel itself. The heat is conducted to the rest of the steel through the molucules of the steel. They ones nearest the fire vibrate with more energy and that causes a chain reaction to move the energy (heat in this case) to the rest of the steel in the boiler. 

Now, we have a hot fire, with convection fueling the fire to burn, and the energy from the fire is released and transfered to the steel by convection and radiation. Then the heat in the steel is transered to the rest of the steel and then to the water on the other side of the steel jacket. Now more convection happens as the steel releases its heat energy to the water. Convection works in gasses and fluids. As the water gets hot in the boiler, it rises. That causes what is called natural convection in the boiler. At the same time there is a pump that circulates water from the boiler to the house, and back to the boiler. That is called induced convection. If you add a fan to the damper of the boiler, you also induce convection. 

Now, the difference between the fan and the natural convection (or draft) air supply boiler. Again, it is design specific. You have to have a damper at or near the bottom of the burning chamber to supply cold air at a low point so that natural convection will draw the hot air out the top and through the stack. Placed too high and the draft will not work right. You also need the right diameter stack and one that is tall enough to provide a good draft to allow gasses to escape the burn chamber and allow more cold air to enter through the damper. A stack that is too low will not work right either. Same as any masonry house fireplace. Now if that draft is not designed right, or you want a bigger air supply then you can add a fan to force the airflow through the system. This will indeed induce the wood to burn faster, and in many cases hotter. But... at the same time you are adding more air flow to the air entering the burn chamber. In many cases that I have seen, the forced air fans actually force a lot of the heat that you otherwise want to trap in the firebox right out of the stack before it can be transfered to the steel, water, and your house. You see, more air flow is not always better. A stong air flow can actually casue you to burn more wood. While the wood itself may be burning nice and hot and more efficiently.... you may also be losing a lot of that heat out the stack. So efficiency is a trickey word to use in the wood boiler industry. What you want is good heat transfer, and as much of the heat in the firewood to be transfered to your steel boiler and in turn transfered to your boiler water tank. Good heat efficiency, not good wood burning efficiency (although both are desirable). That heat in turn neds to get to your heat exchnagers, in turn to be delivered to your hot water heater and you in the shower, and to the forced air or hydronic heating system to heat your house. 

The main problem with most starved-air OWB systems that are are talking about here (all but the likes of Greenwood and high-efficiency indoor wood boiler heaters) is that they lose a lot of energy in the off cycles. This is becasue when the damper closes of the fan is turned off, the wood is still being heated. It basically is being turned into charcoal, and the wood gasses are allowed to escape before they are burned. One reason that I try to use the minimum wood needed her to keep our fire going here is that I do not want to BBQ the firewood before it flame burns. Charcoal is made that way: wood is heated but not burned, which drives off the wood gasses leaving the charcoal. Those wood gasses have a lot of energy in them, and that is one reason that these types of boilers have less efficiency than the likes of the Greenwood systems. But the advantages of these systems is that they do not need to be filled as often, and they burn at lower temperatures, and they store energy in the wood that has yet to burn, and in the water tanks. Water has a good heat capacity, and that is why it is used in these types of systems. 

Well, that should be enough to confuse everyone here and fan the flames...


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## HUSKYMAN (Jan 31, 2007)

Thanks for the response. You have explained well how boilers without fans work, however you have not proven that a boiler without a fan works better than a boiler with a fan. I still think a boiler with a fan will heat up faster and burn cleaner than one without. 

That, combined with the fact that the Woodmaster is over $1000 cheaper will have me calling the Woodmaster dealer tomorrow. I think CB makes a good product, but I want to look at the Woodmaster up close and if it is of comparable quality and the dealer is competent, I think that may be what I go with.


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## MS-310 (Jan 31, 2007)

windthrown said:


> The CB warantee really sucks? You have any personal personal experience with that? Anything that has gone wrong with *our* CB has been replaced on the spot. New controller and aquastat after controller readout dial failed, unit still worked OK. Aquastat did not need replacing. A new damper door after I found that there was a small warp in the mount hinge. The dealer replaced entire damper door and hinge with a new one on the spot. As a result of the damper door not closing right, the unit boiled over. So he also gave us a free gallon of anti-corrosion fluid as well. I did not even ask for that. I had not even thought about losing corrosion inhibitor in the boil-over. So far, anything that has gone wrong with the CB unit (minor stuff) and they have replaced all parts at no cost, with no hassle and instantly. So from my personal experience I can say that the CB warantee is a good one, and they live up to it.
> 
> While we are on the subject, we ordered out CB unit and paid for it expecting it to be delivered in 6 weeks. It came in 3 weeks. It was here before the pad was poured for it. Every time I have called the dealer he was there and/or called back. Every time I called the factroy they had a technical expert there to deal with my questions. Mainly with design, and sizing the heat exchangers for the unit with our given situation. The heat exchangers were and are a perfect fit for our heat needs here. The thing runs pretty flawlessly. Keep the fire going, and that's pretty much it. As for draft, I will get to that in the next post...





I do agree but they have stoves from 2002 and 2003 that I have been taking the spray foam off of to have a boiler company fixing....the point is that they take a long time and its hard to get money out of them.

dont get me wroung here CB are a very good stove been around them for about 8 years, working with one of the biggest dealer.(they dont deal anymore cuz of some issiues) When to a guys house today looking at a small leak. It happens.


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## bwalker (Jan 31, 2007)

> nd from 120 to 165 it usually only takes about an hour to get there. And during that time the house is still 70 degrees, and the hot water is still hot from the night before.


 Mine would take 10-15 minutes to go from 120-165.
From what I have seen the natural draft boilers are wjat give OWB's a bad name. They smoke and smolder and are on cycle much longer. 
Now it would seem to me the longer you are on cycle the more wood your going to burn.
As for stainless....tell that to all the boiler owners with leaky boilers. Mild steel boiler last as little as 5 years. This is according to people I talked to before I bought mine that actually had to have their leakers welded.
BTW the best warranty is not having to use one. I am going on five season with my Heatmore and I havent had to do anything to it other than to oil the fan motor twice a year and monitor the water PH.


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## windthrown (Feb 1, 2007)

*Fan or no fan...*



HUSKYMAN said:


> Thanks for the response. You have explained well how boilers without fans work, however you have not proven that a boiler without a fan works better than a boiler with a fan. I still think a boiler with a fan will heat up faster and burn cleaner than one without.



I am not saying that a non-fan unit will work better than a fanned unit. I am saying that in many cases a fan is not needed. It is also design dependant. In simple terms... look at the average house fireplace. If you added a fan to the front of the fireplace, would it burn any better? Yes, it would burn hotter and faster, but it would also force a lot of heat up the flue. Would it heat any better? No. Actually it would heat worse. And a big reason that there are not many people putting fans on the front of their fireplaces to keep the fire going in them. Natural convection can be as effective as a fan, becasue in effect _it is a fan_. Simple. No moving parts. Nothing to break down. 

Good luck with your purchase, whatever one that you get. The Woodmaster should be a reasonable OWB. They have been around.


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## johnb (Feb 2, 2007)

*Buy the Hardy Heater*

Buy a Hardy, All stainless steel, forced air, burns anything wet, dry, mother in laws! We have several of the major brands within 3 miles of me and everyone wished that they seen a hardy first!! Happy hunting John

WWW. Hardyheater.com


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## bwalker (Feb 2, 2007)

Hardy has to take the award for the cheapest/cheesiest wood boiler going....


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 3, 2007)

Yesterday I met the Woodmaster dealer and he was very knowledgeable. He has been a dealer for nine years and is also an electrical contractor. I was able to see a Woodmaster 6500 in action, heating a 40x80 horse barn, 30x40 barn, a 40x60 barn, a 2500 sq foot house, and a garage. Needless to say I was impressed. The owner had a bin setup for dumping bucketfulls of wood pellets and a conveyor going right into the firbox. I wouldn't want to split wood for that monster!

Anyways I liked the dealer and will probably be a Woodmaster owner in a little while. Thanks for your input everyone


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## highpower (Feb 4, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Hardy has to take the award for the cheapest/cheesiest wood boiler going....




Why do you say this about the Hardy heaters? Not trying to start anything, just curious. I've had mine for two seasons now and love it.


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## johnb (Feb 4, 2007)

*Well lets start something!*

Isn't the Heatmore the tin can with augers for ash draws?? Just kidding they all have there faults Mr. Walker but giving a hardy a bum rap you can't. They are a fine product, great warrenty and have a long track record of good service! What's up with all of the units on jackstands and angle iron?? talk about heat loss!! WOW The Hoosier


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## MS-310 (Feb 5, 2007)

May I ask why you would lose heat if a stove is on "angle iron"......Im ready to learn.


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## johnb (Feb 5, 2007)

*Lets face it*

You need the boiler on the ground, concrete or whatever in order to better stabilize the unit. Having it supported on legs allows cold air to encompass the unit, even if it is insulated. Plus you have to make the lines so they don't freeze coming out of the bottom of the unit. All extra! Think of the sheer weight supported by all the extra metal frame work to hold water (crazy). Because of this you are forced to use heavier steel and reduces your tanks heat transfer rate. lets face it is easyer to heat through 16 gauge steel then 1/4 plate. The real reason they are on legs is to make them easyer to be replaced, by a fork lift. Sorry to be so direct but Mr. Walkers commnets about the Hardy really set me off!!!!!! I could go on and on but you get the point. The Hoosier


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## MS-310 (Feb 5, 2007)

No I dont get your point. Hardys thats funny my father inlaw had 2 of them, allright stove but they dont take much beating, it was all beat up after 2 years. He isnt rough on stuff, but this thing is not stroung at all, how do you think they can make them cheap. The handles on the ash door and fire door = weak, the sides of the fire box is all bent up and its just thin, there is nothing to block any heat from going right out the chimney. Legs are a good idea for moving and some people like it better, cold air under the stove, doesnt make one bit. But it lasted about 6 years and leaked, try to find people that like to weld them up...lots of money.


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## bwalker (Feb 5, 2007)

The doors on a Hardy look like they belong on a hamster cage. I stand by my comment that they look cheap.



> You need the boiler on the ground, concrete or whatever in order to better stabilize the unit. Having it supported on legs allows cold air to encompass the unit, even if it is insulated. Plus you have to make the lines so they


 Valid point and one of the reason I didnt go with a Woodmaster when I was in the market for a OWB.

One thing I would like to comment is that its mentioned often that Heatmor's ash auger has issues. I simply havent seen them? What are these supposed issues?


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## Butch(OH) (Feb 5, 2007)

I like long legs on my womens
and my boilers, LOL
Ole buddy Spikey tried to tell us OWB owners that we aint rightopcorn:


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## windthrown (Feb 5, 2007)

*OWB brand wars...*



Butch(OH) said:


> I like long legs on my womens
> and my boilers, LOL
> Ole buddy Spikey tried to tell us OWB owners that we aint rightopcorn:



Oh no, not Spikey again! Even the ghost of Spikey... 

I also fail to see the issue with having legs on a boiler. Heat rises... and the enclosed area below the heater (at least on a Central Boiler) does not lose much heat. Same with a house. The floors are usually the smallest return on investment to insulate. Go for the roof and walls first. Most companies raise the boiler to the level that they can be used (door is thigh high and up). Makes engineering sence to have most of the water in the tank above the burn chamber, not below. On the slab CBs are very stable. It would take a lot of force to knock one off their feet. Thick plate steel will also conduct heat just fine, and not rust out in the process. I'll take 1/4" carbon steel over stainless any time. It is a lot cheaper and there is no rust in our boiler after 2 heating seasons here. Zero. If you like better heat conduction go with plain steel and not stainless. The heat transfer rate is _less_ with stainless steel than with mild carbon steel.


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## grandpatractor (Feb 5, 2007)

Butch(OH) said:


> I like long legs on my womens
> and my boilers, LOL


I'll second that one. 

whats wrong with legs as long as its insulated. That way I can stand up straighter when I'm loading wood.The snow won't melt of the roof til it gets above freezing.:crazy1:


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## MS-310 (Feb 5, 2007)

Windthrown and butch....we have had are little problems about rspike but he has some very good points.

WE love you spike, thanks for the help on the hearth forum.


Now for the hardy I cant say I agree with very little of the stove, but thats my choice. 

They remind me of an old car from back to the future, all that stainless steel on the out side. 

Windthrown, my dads CB did come off the slab.....LOL
I wish I had some pics, it was up right but one side was about 7" down...funny. lesson #1 dont for get to make sure the brakes on the frount end loader work, lesson #2 take the chain off the hook before driving away from the stove. 

Sorry it was a funny time along time ago for me.


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## Butch(OH) (Feb 5, 2007)

"WE love you spike"

LOL, Not I, 

I don't belive in Cyber relationships. opcorn:


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## Mogollon (Feb 5, 2007)

> also fail to see the issue with having legs on a boiler. Heat rises... and the enclosed area below the heater (at least on a Central Boiler) does not lose much heat


.

I've been beat over the head for saying heat rises. Warmed air yes, but heat goes to cold. Always. The advantage to the smaller Central boilers is that the "skirting" or siding goes down to the slab or foundation and you can stuff additional insulation below the boiler and around the pipes. On the larger models the firebox sits low to the ground. It is very important on any house in a cold climate to insulate the ground floor, up to 40% of the heat can be lost thru a floor.


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## highpower (Feb 6, 2007)

MS-310 said:


> No I dont get your point. Hardys thats funny my father inlaw had 2 of them, allright stove but they dont take much beating, it was all beat up after 2 years. He isnt rough on stuff, but this thing is not stroung at all, how do you think they can make them cheap. The handles on the ash door and fire door = weak, the sides of the fire box is all bent up and its just thin, there is nothing to block any heat from going right out the chimney. Legs are a good idea for moving and some people like it better, cold air under the stove, doesnt make one bit. But it lasted about 6 years and leaked, try to find people that like to weld them up...lots of money.



I am not sure how machined stainless equals cheap as far as the handles on a Hardy go. They cam shut just like water tight doors. The doors and cabinet are insulated so well the stove is cold to the touch. We had a 2" snow that stayed on the stove until the sun came out and melted it late in the afternoon. 
There is a stainless baffle in the top of the firebox that turns hot gasses back into the stove for a second burn.
As far as leaks go the stove has a 10 year warranty. I am not sure about how your father-in-laws stove got beat up. Mine is two years old and still looks new. I will give you the outer shell is thin but it's only job is to cover the insulation so is does not get wet when it rains. 
The reason I have a hardy is I have two friends who have Hardy stoves. The first has had his for nine years and the second has had his twelve or thirteen, he can't remember for sure. The nine year old stove has had nothing done to it. The other has replaced the Taco pump two years ago.


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## MS-310 (Feb 7, 2007)

God I would hope you could touch the out side.....that would lose alot of heat if it doesnt have snow on it.
Im just saying what I have seen on more then one hardy.


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## johnb (Feb 7, 2007)

*whatcha burnin*

Hey, as long as we are all happy and warm, who cares what brand we have. What is everyone burnin?? I'm burning all wet wood, not split. Mostly wild cherry, pin oak and maple (sugar/silver). I don't pick and choose but the harder and wetter the better. I'm getting a 20 hour burn on my firebox, but that is empty. I have the full floor grate system and have had no trouble with bridging. Two of my friends have units 5 and 15 years older with the inline single grate system and are forced to check it every 12 hours, due to occassional bridging. The hardy recomends every 12hours, but I like to push it. I really like the maple it seems to have much great moisture content and holds longer. The cherry is nice too but smokes heavy. Going out today to cut some hickory slab wood from my mill and see how it holds. Been darn cold but the house stays 75. I havn't turned the oil burner on yet this year. Can't complain but the wood pile is getting low! The Hoosier


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## bwalker (Feb 7, 2007)

In my Heatmor I have been burning 3' x 8-12'' sticks of green red oak, sugar maple and yellow birch. I fill every 24 hours and the outside temp has been no higher than 5 degrees for the last few weeks and frequently down to -10 or less at night. Was actually down to -33 one night. House is 75 or better and the propane furnace hasnt been on in 5 years.
Works for me.


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## bwalker (Feb 7, 2007)

BTW the more moisture in the wood the faster it burns......


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## mjs97 (Feb 7, 2007)

i built a owb and my firebox is 36 dia by 42 long and i fill it about half full every 12 hours. usually half good hardwood and half soft wood. my is natural draft. think powerdraft saves wood??? mine is on at 160 and off at 175total cycle is 3 hours. on cycle is about an hour. it has been -10 to 10 degrees last couple weeks.

thanks,
matt


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## MS-310 (Feb 7, 2007)

bwalker said:


> BTW the more moisture in the wood the faster it burns......



Sweet, im going to soak my wood.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 7, 2007)

bwalker said:


> BTW the more moisture in the wood the faster it burns......


Yeah he lost me too with that one. Maybe because it burns with less BTU's you go through it faster?


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## bwalker (Feb 7, 2007)

> Yeah he lost me too with that one. Maybe because it burns with less BTU's you go through it faster?


 Green wood burns faster because the process of boiling off all the water contained in the wood eats up BTU's.


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## windthrown (Feb 7, 2007)

*No no no no no no no no no....*



Mogollon said:


> .
> 
> I've been beat over the head for saying heat rises. Warmed air yes, but heat goes to cold. Always. The advantage to the smaller Central boilers is that the "skirting" or siding goes down to the slab or foundation and you can stuff additional insulation below the boiler and around the pipes. On the larger models the firebox sits low to the ground. It is very important on any house in a cold climate to insulate the ground floor, up to 40% of the heat can be lost thru a floor.



Nope. Heat does not always go from hot to cold, as you say here. It depends on the medium in which the heat is being transfered, and the phase of the medium (ie, gas, liquid or solid). Only in heat conduction does hot go to cold, as you say. 

The principles of thermodynamics states that there are three basic forms of heat transfer. Conduction, convection, and radiation. Conduction is where energy moves through a medium, 'from hot cold' as you say. If you heat a piece of copper on one end, the energy will move through the copper metal and the other end will become heated until the energy is uniform in the copper. Then there is convection, where heated gas and fluids (does not happen in solids) become less dense and hotter gas and liquid rise above colder (more dense) gas and liquid. In this case, hot does not go to cold. Heat rises in that case. Every time. Day in, day out. Then there is radiation, where energy is radiated from a medium in the form of low level infra-red light waves. That is what you feel when a fire is burning and you put your hands up to the fire. Radiant heat. In the case of radiant heating, there is no 'going from hot to cold'. The radiation is uniform, and is emitted from the source outward until it strikes something that absorbs it. The medium that absorbs it may be hot, cold, or otherwise. Again, this is an example where hot does not go to cold. 

As for insulating a house, most of the heat will radiate out the windows. Then a lot of the heat will radiate out of the top and walls of the house becasue heat convection will transfer most of the heat in your house from the basement (if you have one) to the attic. The least likely place that heat will escape from your house is from the basement and/or crawl space. Why? Becasue heat rises due to convection. Same with our CB unit out back. The boiler water will be heated, and the hottest water will move to the top of the boiler tank. From there the heat will be transferred through the steel (conduction) and radiate from the outside into the atmosphere. So the most important part to insulate is the top and sides of the boiler.


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## bwalker (Feb 7, 2007)

Hello, Windthrown. Was on the Heatmor site the other day and i noticed they claim that a forced air draft is more efficient. With todays legal system I dont think too many companys make false claims like that.. Must be something to it.


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## highpower (Feb 7, 2007)

"Hey, as long as we are all happy and warm, who cares what brand we have. What is everyone burnin??"

I could not agree more. Variety is the spice of life as they say. That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.


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## MS-310 (Feb 8, 2007)

So the heatmore is the one with the sand on the bottom or firebrick??? No water on the bottom correct? but water in the door.

Jack


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## bwalker (Feb 8, 2007)

It has sand in the bottom around the the grates/ash auger and it is lined with fire brick as well. The door has water through it.


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## windthrown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Fan vs draft*



bwalker said:


> Hello, Windthrown. Was on the Heatmor site the other day and i noticed they claim that a forced air draft is more efficient. With todays legal system I dont think too many companys make false claims like that.. Must be something to it.



Well, lets see what they say over at the Heatmor web site. Here it is. They say that the forced air draft:

"increases efficiency of burn over 
natural draft systems."

You are falling for their advertizing gimmik. The statement is that the fan increases wood burning efficiency. They do not say that it increases heating efficiency. There is a difference. My beef with fans is that while fans can get the wood burning hotter and faster, they also force a lot of that heat from the burning wood right out the stack. And I do not belive that they are correct in the statement anyway, as a natural convection draft can be as effective as a forced air draft. 

Like a lot of ads on the internet, a lot of them are just hot air. I mean, if you believe all the ads on the internet, then you should be able to make $25,000 a week just sitting there reading the AS forum posts. It must be true! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## windthrown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Burning?*



highpower said:


> "Hey, as long as we are all happy and warm, who cares what brand we have. What is everyone burnin??"



Junk mail, old furnature, old scrap wood, alder, doug fir, white oak, old rotten fence posts, madrone, big leaf maple, grand fir, red cedar, sycamore, ponderosa pine, sawdust, and cardboard. Pretty much anything that is not treated or painted.


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## MS-310 (Feb 8, 2007)

windthrown said:


> Well, lets see what they say over at the Heatmor web site. Here it is. They say that the forced air draft:
> 
> "increases efficiency of burn over
> natural draft systems."
> ...




I will support that statment.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 8, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Green wood burns faster because the process of boiling off all the water contained in the wood eats up BTU's.



So why do you burn green wood then?


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## windthrown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Green vs dry...*



HUSKYMAN said:


> So why do you burn green wood then?



We only burn green or wet wood here if it is all that we have left for the year. Or if I am burning yard waste just to get rid of it (like the X-mas tree a few weeks ago). Green and/or wet wood will burn, but it will not burn nearly as efficiently as dry and seasoned wood will. As said here by someone else above, you will give up BTU's burning green wood to drive off the water in the form of steam. Net effect, you have to burn more green and wet wood than dry wood for the same amount of heat supplied to your house.


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## ktm250rider (Mar 23, 2007)

We have yet to purchase our OWB but Ive started researching and cutting wood. 
The ash augers are pretty useless from what I can determine. The ash will form a bridge around the auger and thus become useless. I used to see this alot with plastic pellets in the hoppers of extrusion machines.
Also, SS ist great if you use the correct type. Not all grades of SS are equal and may not perform as well as steel.
OH yeah, we are probably going with a central boiler. We will be heating 4000 sqft of house with hydronic hot air and radiant floor in tile areas and 3 car garage. At some point, hot tub will be included if i ever finish the deck. Ill probably run domestic hot water off of propane boiler.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 23, 2007)

What type of wood are you going to be burning?


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## ktm250rider (Mar 23, 2007)

hockeypuck said:


> What type of wood are you going to be burning?



Depends on the temp. When its fairly warm ill get rid of my pine and hemlock when it gets colder ill switch over to my hard woods, oak, maple, etc. We've got 50 acres to support it. I just need to get my bridge finished so i can get to the meat of the wood.


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## johnb (Mar 23, 2007)

*Wow*

Buy a Hardy OWB and burn whatever you want! Get the forced air unit. Oh, yea, thats all they sell is forced air. Above all check them all out!! Happy wood burning! The Hoosier


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## windthrown (Mar 24, 2007)

ktm250rider said:


> We have yet to purchase our OWB but Ive started researching and cutting wood.
> The ash augers are pretty useless from what I can determine. The ash will form a bridge around the auger and thus become useless. I used to see this alot with plastic pellets in the hoppers of extrusion machines.
> Also, SS ist great if you use the correct type. Not all grades of SS are equal and may not perform as well as steel.
> OH yeah, we are probably going with a central boiler. We will be heating 4000 sqft of house with hydronic hot air and radiant floor in tile areas and 3 car garage. At some point, hot tub will be included if i ever finish the deck. Ill probably run domestic hot water off of propane boiler.



If you are going with an OWB, you may as well heat your hot water with it too.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 24, 2007)

windthrown said:


> If you are going with an OWB, you may as well heat your hot water with it too.



yup I have a plate on the inlet of my hot water heater and the propane usage is nil when the owb is going in the winter. I use more propane in the summer


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## ktm250rider (Mar 24, 2007)

> heat your hot water with it too.



No sense heating my hot water, hahaaaa. Ill probably use the OWB to heat the "cold" water in the winter. IN summer, ill run the boiler for hot water. I really dont like messing around with fires when its 90+ out.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 24, 2007)

ktm250rider said:


> Depends on the temp. When its fairly warm ill get rid of my pine and hemlock when it gets colder ill switch over to my hard woods, oak, maple, etc. We've got 50 acres to support it. I just need to get my bridge finished so i can get to the meat of the wood.



I am live near Winnepesaukee. So if you want to see my Wood Master, just send me a private message. I would go with the WD again because of the original reasons I chose it over CB. I wanted forced draft (nice for burning wet or large but pieces) and the 4 legs make it much easier for set up. Northwood power equipment in Northwood sells them. I bet you could get a good deal on one now. 

Puck

Ps. Do not go stainless steel, what ever you do. Not worth the money. I have talked to a few guys that do welding and metal work for a living. The talked me out of it.


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## ktm250rider (Mar 24, 2007)

Puck
I actually stopped at northwood friday afternoon to take a look at them. The legs do make for an easy installation but I would like to have a pad to load from as well. I have very muddy conditions around my proposed boiler location and i figured a nice cement pad would be nice to standon while loading.
Really the only thing I didnt like about the woodmaster was the fiberglass insulation. I would prefer the ureathane foam insulation as the Central boiler.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 24, 2007)

*foam vs fiber*

That was my one reservation but after seeing the amount of snow that was left on top of my unit, I realized that there was not much heat loss. The foam can crack over time, but some say not. In a couple of years I could always have someone come in and foam mine. There are many foam sprayers running around my area. Seems like the thing to do on new houses. Make sure you get the good thermal pex pipe to put in the ground. I bought the pipe from my local CB dealer because the stuff that WM was selling was crap. 

Puck

PS. either way CB or WM you can not go wrong.


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## ktm250rider (Mar 24, 2007)

Now that you mentioned it, that was the other thing i noticed about the unit. They used a thin insulation in the corregated pipe. The unit I looked at comes with 35'. I need approximately 100' for my optimal location. They were letting the 4400 with 35' of pipe go for $5900 with the option of the extra 65' of pipe for $6400.

As I was reading that statement of adding the foam after, the same thought hit me.

Did you look at any of the indoor gasification boilers? I like the idea of not going outside, less wood consumption but I would have to add a chimney.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 24, 2007)

*outside*

I wanted to get the mess outside, not in my garage, but outside. Wood gassification boilers are more expensive, but use less wood. The problem still is you have to bring the wood you are burning indoors. I burnt two chords of wood this year that I never wood have brought indoors. Huge pine log butts, that you never would have fit in a gassification furnace. The time I save by cutting my wood into 2 foot lengths or longer depending on the diameter has also been factored into my view of my owb. I just got a truck load (12 chords) of tree length wood from a friend for a small trucking fee because it was a mix of hard and soft wood, some of it punky but most (80percent) will be great. It was a small clearing job that he did and he just wanted to get it out of the land owners yard. An indoor furnace is still an indoor wood stove. Fire and smoke still an issue indoors. Might as well go pellet. JMHO.

One thing to consider is if you like to travel during the winter. I am married with two small kids, so we usually stick close to home so keeping the boiler filled is not a problem ( I have an employee who tends it if I am gone a night or two). The point being you do have another concern if you leave (same as if you had a cat or dog) so besure that have a game plan if you have to leave or like to go on vacation in the winter time.

As far as going outside, the most I had to fill it up was twice a day. I would fill it before I left for work and when I got home (no later than 6:00). I could even fill it before the sun went down during january with out a problem.


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## ktm250rider (Mar 24, 2007)

Yup, thought of the traveling or down time situation. I was figuring on having a circulater that I could use to circulate water from out current propane boiler to keep the lines and tank from freezing. This would also run the house when we were away. Not that that happens too often as well. The only thing i need to figure is where to measure the water temp to trigger the pump to circulate. I would then use a setpoint controller with the temp prob run to the contorller in the basement where i could monitor the temp.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 24, 2007)

*circulator on owb*

You would have to run a low voltage line as well as a line voltage out to your owb. The line voltage would have to be switched from normal operation (always on) to being controlled by a low voltage contact (plumbing in an aquastat at the boiler) to turn on the indoor boiler as well as the circulator. It could be done, and I am sure there are other on this site who have done something like this.


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## johnb (Mar 25, 2007)

*leaves for heat*

Raked the yard yesterday filled the Hardy OWB with leaves, twiggs, some wet hay. Got enough to load her for the next week. It's been 50 to 60 during the day but chilly at night. Got the house thermostat at 70 just comfortable this time of year. I have had no heating bill this year, ie oil, gas of any kind. Accept fuel for the chainsaws. Don't be a fraid of Stainess steel, when it comes to heat applications stainless is used frequently. stay warm the Hoosier!!


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## btlook1 (Mar 31, 2007)

*wow*

There's a ton of good information just in this thread! I'm amazed that you guys know so much. I'm still researching my OWB. But I do plan to get one set up this fall is the plan. I wonder do the prices go down on them in the spring? Also what do you guys do with them if say your going on vacation for a week in the middle of the winter? Just curiuos. Thanks for all the info and I'm glad I don't have to pay for it...LOL. Bt.


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## windthrown (Mar 31, 2007)

*OWB discount time and vacation*



btlook1 said:


> There's a ton of good information just in this thread! I'm amazed that you guys know so much. I'm still researching my OWB. But I do plan to get one set up this fall is the plan. I wonder do the prices go down on them in the spring? Also what do you guys do with them if say your going on vacation for a week in the middle of the winter? Just curiuos. Thanks for all the info and I'm glad I don't have to pay for it...LOL. Bt.



Boilers tend to go 'on sale' in late summer. I would also recommend that you put your boiler in during the summer. By the time fall rolls around, you will want to use the boiler and have it debugged. Also have a lot of firewood ready. These things have a large and steady diet of firewood, especially if it gets c-c-c-c-cold. The more seasoned and dry the firewood, the better. They will burn green and wet wood, but more efficient to burn dry seasoned wood. We will have 10 cords ready to burn by next fall here. 

As for vacation... we installed the OWB to replace the existing electric hydronic floor heater and hot water heater. So before we leave I just let the boiler burn out and turn on the electric heater and set the t-stat at 50 degrees inside the house. I let the hot water heater cool down. If we lived in an area that had really low temps, like the upper midwest or northeast? I would turn on the electric hot water heater set to low inside the house. That way the flat plate heat exchanger will reverse and draw heat off the hot water heater to keep the boiler water and boiler loop from freezing up.


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## fourustircom (Sep 21, 2008)

*Woodmaster 4400 temp reading accurate?*

Hi, Folks!

It's been a while since I was on here, but all your advice has paid off and the machine ran for the first time today. I'm curious, though, is the temp readout adjustable? Mine seems to be high by about 20 deg. I put a thermometer into the water at the fill/vent tube after checking outlet temp and inlet temp. Once the burner got up to 180 deg., I flipped on the heat switch on the thermostat and adjusted up the temp so the blower would run. I immediately noticed the oil burner had also started even though I had the Aquastat set to 130 deg. I adjusted it down to 120 deg. and got the oil firnace to shut off. The A/C was also running, but I killed it with the breaker.

I'll be calling Woodmaster in the AM, but just wondered if any of you had a similar situation. I can always adjust the cut on and cut off temps up 20 deg., but it doesn't seem like I should have to do that. The damper fan worked at the appropriate temps, according to the readout. It was real exciting watching the water run out of the vent as the water expanded in the tank!

Thanks!


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## kalib stock (Jan 15, 2009)

The only thing i don't like about CB and Wood Master is they have a digital read out. I researched them all of them seven years ago and went with a Taylor. I think the simpler the design the better.


HUSKYMAN said:


> I am getting a OWB in a couple months for a new house I am building. I will be heating a 1700 sq ft house and about a 1500 sq ft pole barn, along with all my hot water.
> 
> I am leaning towards Central Boiler because I know two guys who have them and they appear to be very well made. I also like the urethane firebox insulation vs the fiberglass used in other models. The problem the CB is that the dealer in my county sucks apparently, and is good for buying the unit only and is pretty useless as far as installation.
> 
> ...


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## abohac (Jan 16, 2009)

HUSKYMAN said:


> Thanks for the response. You have explained well how boilers without fans work, however you have not proven that a boiler without a fan works better than a boiler with a fan. I still think a boiler with a fan will heat up faster and burn cleaner than one without.
> 
> That, combined with the fact that the Woodmaster is over $1000 cheaper will have me calling the Woodmaster dealer tomorrow. I think CB makes a good product, but I want to look at the Woodmaster up close and if it is of comparable quality and the dealer is competent, I think that may be what I go with.


Your instincts are exactly right. Forced air has got to be better (I have one).


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## trialanderror (Jan 17, 2009)

this thread is so old....


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## kicohman (May 27, 2010)

*Stay Away from Central Boiler Wood Furnaces*

I would be careful of Central Boiler. I too was very impressed with their product 6 years ago when I purchased one. Now they want me to pay $2000 to get it fixed and they are not standing behind their warranty. My friend and I purchased identical units that came on the same truck and beleive it or not they sprung leaks half way up the fire box in the same locations at the exact same time. The company in no way finds that odd. They just say that we did not burn them properly. The side walls of the firebox consist of 1/8" steel not the 1/4" that the dealers tell you, and the 1/8" steel is not thick enough to withstand the temperatures. I have never been treated so rudely by a company in order to get the issue resolved. I personally think that they have a huge problem that they are not willing to admit and they are hiding the true problems. I would love to hear from other Central Boiler owners that have had similar problems.


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