# why blakes over taut line?



## kf_tree (Jul 31, 2002)

i've only worked with one climber thats used a blakes hitch. i also watched him cut his flip line, fall out of a tree, try walking out on dead branch's only to have them snap out from under him etc. so i was in no way adapting to any of his style of climbing. i seems alot of you guys prefer the blakes hitch, why?


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## o0_TreeMan_0o (Jul 31, 2002)

the tautline jams up and you have to work it loose to descend on sometimes. also it tends to roll out. blake is fast to tie, never jams (unless pine sap) and does not roll out. and I like the way it is positioned on the line. However, I prefer the french prusik.


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## treeclimber165 (Jul 31, 2002)

Dang, spikey. You must have been reading my mind- or I was reading yours. I was typing up a new thread when you posted this. Just about the same topic.


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## greenguy (Jul 31, 2002)

distel is as good as it gets climbed on others to much friction.


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## Stumper (Jul 31, 2002)

The Blakes hitch has certainly gained a good reputation quickly. However it does tend to create more wear due to concentrating the friction in a smaller section of rope than the Tautline. I have been using the same knot forever (well, since I can remember). Strangely my friction hitch doesn't appear in any of the literature on climbing. Essentially it is a variation of the Tautline which eliminates its faults(rollout and binding). Every illustration I have seen of a Tautline has the standing line and the tag entering/exiting opposite one another. Some knot literature indicates that the tautline is the same as a Rolling (Magnus) Hitch but tied on rope instead of a spar. Illustrations of the Magnus hitch are split 50/50 on the configuration but my experience has been that while both hold equally well in a longitudal pull, having the knot configured so that the tag exits the knot parrallel to the standing line is much more secure. Finish off with a half hitch around the running line and the knot does not creep and there is no need for a stopper in the tag end. If this is confusing let me know and I'll try to take a pic and post it.


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## rahtreelimbs (Aug 1, 2002)

When I first started all this was greek to me. I used the blake because it was easy to remember how to tie. Rich.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 1, 2002)

ok your knot is confusing me some, if both ends come out the center together, im picturing a prusik that would be based on the girth hitch and not the clove (like the tautline would be from the clove).


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## Toddppm (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *. If this is confusing let me know and I'll try to take a pic and post it. *


OK I'll take you up on that 
I've never used anything other than a tautline.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 1, 2002)

The blakes doesn't roll out like the tautline. The bigger benifit is that when you tie the blakes, you adjust the amount of friction you want and it stays about the same as you work. The tautline gets tighter as you load it, and is then hard to break.

The distal is just a tautline with the tail tied off. Not much of an improvement.

Stumpers hitch is a tautrline witht the tail tied to the working end. The direction of the wraps doesn't make much difference in performance.

Of these knots, the blakes is best for a climbing hitch. Of course for the seasoned climber, any variation of the french prussic is best.


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## kf_tree (Aug 1, 2002)

have you guys experianced a taut line roll out? or is this one of those urban legends. i put an extra half hitch on my tautline and have never had it roll out. i do not use a stopper knot. also could i get a little more info on the french prussic. what size line do you use for the prussic? do you then use it like slit tail?


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## kf_tree (Aug 1, 2002)

also does the french pussic hinder you from throwing your climbing line. i usually wrap the tail around the snap and weave it through the hole, i like the weight of the metal snap to throw the line where i need it some times.


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## Treeman14 (Aug 1, 2002)

I've been using the tautline hitch for twenty years with various lines, including three-strand, safety blue, arbor plex, true blue, and hi-vee. NEVER had it roll out or slip. When something works, I tend to stick with it, unless and until something better is proven to me. I don't see any advatage to using a Blake's.


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 1, 2002)

I am using some thing like a french prussick but the length is such that I can covert to a distal( 3up ! down) or swabish.

Seriously It sounds like U have been caught in a climbers backwater.....the $$$ sound astonishing so I can see the delema.
....But we are using Spikes LESS in removals and rarley ( big limbs)in pruning and consider using the Blakes hitch a starting point in good climbing !!!
And Iam from a Backwater at the top of the World...you guys just got it upside down.


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## TREETX (Aug 1, 2002)

How many of you climbing with tails or prussiks leave them tied and use the same knot day in day out.

I know you should retie the knots daily but who does?


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## o0_TreeMan_0o (Aug 1, 2002)

When I was climbing with the Blake’s hitch (not that long ago) I tried leaving the split tail tied on the line but pulling 60 feet of climb line thru a Blake’s after a long removal kind of sucked. Now that I am using a French Prusik/Machard Tresse, I just unclip the binner from my center D ring and easily pull all the slack out and do the binner, pulley, and cord up in the coil. The times I do remove the hitch is to change line lengths.


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## treeclimber165 (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *How many of you climbing with tails or prussiks leave them tied and use the same knot day in day out.
> 
> I know you should retie the knots daily but who does? *



My tautline hitch gets untied and retied a few times in every tree. About as natural for me as clipping a locking 'biner to most of you guys. The knot that DOESN'T get untied and retied very often is the knot holding my clip to my lifeline. About every two-three months, when I reverse or replace my lifeline (my 75'). My long rope gets retied....... lemmie get the calander......  my calander doesn't go back that far!


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## rbtree (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, guys, I've climbed on em all, and still do, as needed. On a scale of ten, for ease of use, speed, etc:

Tautline 2, gets way too tight, rolls out, sometimes runs unexpectedly
blake's 3 can run if not tight enuf, too tight
English prussic 3 can run
Schwabisch 7 sensitive to cordage type and size, current stuff is working GREAT! Breaks easily, rarely gets too tight.
distel 6

French prussic, with many variations, 9--- releases instantly, grabs instantly; in drop tests, is by far the best in energy absorption characteristics, spreads out stresses on the mainline, only limitration is inability to body thrust with it. Who cares, it is passe anyhow. Is sensitive to length of cord, needs to be watched to avoid bunching when climbing up. I just learned a cool new variation from dethroned ITCC champ Mark Chisholm, it worked great today.

Have only briefly tried the Lockjack, no interest the FP is so good.

for all knots, you must use a micropulley slack tender, for self advancing the knot, self belay, ground belay. 

Today was great, as we got a log truck load in the air waiting for the crane next week-three 110-140 foot firs, now 75-100 foot sticks, about 3000 board feet, and 50 yards of chips. The famous Graeme McMahon from Australia wrecked one of them before his plane flight back home. then the whole crew got to watch his unreal video of removals of 220-280 foot eucs in unbelievable settings. The man is a god, he lowers 90 foot 3 ton branches and tops, climbs with an 046..!! He did like my Walkerized 335 for the puny fir today though!!!

I met the legends Sam Noonan, Ken Meyer, and Don Blair this week at ISA, wow, talk about stories, and history. These guys are the best!!! Among many other great folks, including Bernd Strasser, now 3 time ITCC champ.

Roger


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 2, 2002)

The guys who still climb on a tautline, probably aren't using a micro pulley fair lead. If the hitch locks off, it's no big deal if you're pulling on it with two hands.
The advantage of one handed hitch advancement is huge. Once you start using a fair lead, then you'll want to reduce the friction required to pull the slack from your system.
Start with a new hitch, like the blakes, or an MT/VT for the experienced guys. Then add a cambium saver.
Once you have the tools and learn to use them, it saves a lot of work.


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## Stumper (Aug 2, 2002)

Okay, In response to the request for a pic I'm giving it a try. Incidentally, if this hitch has a name of its own I'd like to know. I've been looking for it in the literature for years without success. I think it is the way that the Tautline should have been tied alll along. The knot pictured includes a securing Half hitch on top-this is what I climb on. Wraps can be added or subtracted depending on the rope used/weight of the climber.


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## underwor (Aug 2, 2002)

Looks like a one loop over 3 prussic hitch. Very similar to swabish if the end with the half was back to the saddle clip.

When I started, the folks I learned from would have said that I screwed up the tautline. But as you say, it works good. Actually the extra half hitch is not required as this will not roll out, like a tautline would. 

Bob Underwood.


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## Toddppm (Aug 2, 2002)

One of my guys was climbing on that except instead of the extra half hitch he had another wrap on top same direction. When I asked him what the hell it was he said the other guy showed it to him He had just tied it backwards. And he had no problem with it either.


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re-tie*



> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *How many of you climbing with tails or prussiks leave them tied and use the same knot day in day out.
> 
> I know you should retie the knots daily but who does? *


Yeh I re tie each day and sometimes each time i "deck out" . Good way to check wear on tail.
....Still on top off the world......


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## murphy4trees (Aug 3, 2002)

I learned early on that you can reverse the direction of turns on the top two turns on a tautline and that will prevent it from rolling. I wonder if that still makes it a tautline. Anyone know?
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 3, 2002)

Wow the 2 Murph's!

i think that reversing the top 2 turns would still make the ends come out the middle, only in the same direction, so would be an open prusik?


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## rbtree (Aug 3, 2002)

Rob,

and,

murph, 


Hey, quit givin me "that upside down feeling", you'll give me a complex.....lol

I used to climb with that hitch sometimes too, it is an open prussic, but seemed more likely to run on its own occasionally.



...... the "only" Dodg...

.and that's a good thing.....


.'specially for youse guys...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 3, 2002)

Bob wrote:

"Actually the extra half hitch is not required as this will not roll out, like a tautline would." 


I disagree. Any open prussic type knot can roll out to some extent. Thus the stopper knot, even on the blakes. 
These knots tend to tighten when loaded, so they need loosening when slack is needed. Each time you do this the hitch moves out just a little. If your tail is close to the hitch and you take a fall, load the hitch, the tail could pull through.

Because it's single ended, as you tighten, it moves out.

I have a winch I use to load test stuff. Maybe I could pull on some of these hitches and see what happens.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 3, 2002)

Hmmmmmmm would be interested in that MM.

In my imagination, halfhitch/clove family of lacings walk some; but i usually go with that when you reverse the 2nd layer to make girth/prusik family of lacings they don't? i figure it will be less, if not about nonexistant, but have never tested that hypothesis like that.

Any way, figure any open system (especially life support) should have a positive mechanical stop.

Tie,
Dress,
Set,
and Inspect.

Take all the slack out of the machine of the knot, so there will be no impact/slip that could cause other problems, as well as sieze tightly on the host line. Make knots that you are totally familiar with. This is one reason i like the double bowline with Yosemite tie off, as it is very symetrical (easy on the eye, well balanced, easier spot checking); as i will tie it in the rigging line and use it all day, attatching 'biners in the temporary eye, so spot inspection of a familiar, symetrical knot becomes more important.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 3, 2002)

The way i envision the diffrence between tautline/prusik.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 3, 2002)

ok, let's try again , again..........


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## Gopher (Aug 5, 2002)

I, too would llike to know more about the fp. I have been using blakes for some time, but I believe in bettering myself here. All I need is a reference to where I can view. 

Thank you.

Gopher


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## o0_TreeMan_0o (Aug 5, 2002)

*French Prusik*

there is also a link on here for the Machard Tresse. it has a lot of good info.

http://community-2.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots/


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 5, 2002)

Yo! Spike!

Just because a guy uses a particular knot and cuts himself out of a tree seems like a funny reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. It seems like there might be better measuring sticks or authorities to use as qualifiers.

Open up your copy of The Tree Climber's Companion and review pages 52-53. The thumb forward to see what Jeff wrote about friction hitches on pages 82-87.

I don't know one climber who moved from the Tautline to the Blake's and ever moved back. In fact, most move quickly from the B onto one of the various high performance hitches. That will start people on to other modern climbing techniques. Think of the Tautline like a dependable Bell System dial phone. Solid, adequate, low performance. the high performance hitches are like using a cell phone or DSL/cable modems. High speed, once you have them tweaked they rock the world! I have an old Bell System dial phone in my garage for nostalgia but I climb on a Lock Jack or Distal. No reason to move backwards with any technology. 

I'll bet dollars to donuts that there wasn't one climber in the ITCC that used a Blakes. In fact, i'd also bet that they all used a split tail and a very high percentage used a high performance friction hitch. Those sort of stats mean something to me, how about you?

Tom


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *...... I just learned a cool new variation from dethroned ITCC champ Mark Chisholm, it worked great today.
> 
> 
> *



Care to share the details of this new variation with your fellow climbers?


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## murphy4trees (Aug 9, 2002)

Blakes is much more responsive than tautline, and won't tighten up under a load like the tautline... definitely a good move. 
Tom,
Did you modify your lock jack. I heard they could be a little jerky.. Maybe it just takes a while to master the control... Any suggestions or tips? How are the new models superior? I sure would like to try one for a week or two without dropping $300.
God Bless,
Daniel


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## Dave (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *
> I don't know one climber who moved from the Tautline to the Blake's and ever moved back. In fact, most move quickly from the B onto one of the various high performance hitches.
> *



I spent a fair amount of time on a tautline, got tired of the rollout and went to Blake's. At that time I realized newer COULD mean better and immediately went to the French prusik. Only use Blake's now for a double tie-in where my 16' lanyard is too short.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 9, 2002)

Dave,

Your testimonial is exactly what I was referring to. Many climbers are reluctant to make changes from what is tried and true even if there is a lot of evidence that the new way is better. Making the step from Tautline to Blake's is the hardest but, once made, makes the journey to being a progressive climber a fast-track. Think of it as a toe in the door.

I haven't done anything to my LJ to tune it. Pretty odd for me  In fact, I never even painted it pink! The current price for the LJ is $240. Stop down at the Vermeer dealer, they should have one set up on the display floor. The dealer here in the Twin Cities has one on the rope and sells them pretty regularly.

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 10, 2002)

Any input on my theory of why an open prusik will tend not to walk, or won't and why clove/tautline family will?

MM you ever get to test those knots?

Enquiring minds need to know!


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## Stumper (Aug 10, 2002)

Spydy, Your theory seems logical. The big diff between the 2 styles of hitches comes into play when the direction of pull is changed so that the standing line is actively 'trying' to open the "bar" of the hitch. Clove style lacing tends to roll out-the standing line is forcing the bar down the tail. Prusik style lacings tend to balance the forces and stay tied.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 10, 2002)

Yes, I did some testing.
When the taut line was tied with the ends exiting in different directions and no stopper knot(for testing only), it rolled right off the tail with about 200Lbs pull.
Don't even think about climbing on this knot without a stopper!
It suprised me that when I tied it so the ends came out the same way, it held. I took it to about 4000 lbs, and it just got tighter, no slipage.
The prussics behaved differently. They tightened up and held to about 1000lbs, then slid. They seemed to slide evenly at a certain pound pull.
If I shortened the prussic by adding an extra wrap it just held to a higher load and then slid. The sliding at high pressure burned the cover after only a short pull.
I don't think the cord I have been using for prussics would hold up to a long burn.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 10, 2002)

As in many things with these exam-i-nations i see more things than just one; each serving to compound the other.

Not, only do i see the 'z' bar of clove/tautline being pushed back towards end of tail (walking) while, the girth/prusik type are a diffrent machine (just because of the reversed '2nd' story) self tightening instead of loosening, truly setting the load against itself. Even with it's other leg free. Also, the straight bar reverses the torquing thru the line. i think that pinches the center lines (working and standing tails) together tighter. This in turn, provides securer clamping; which serves to snub out more pulling force, and increase traction between the 2 tail ends. 

This traction, grabbing as the working tail is pulled serves in the girth/prusik lacings to pull the standing end tighter, while in clove/tautline family of lacings tends to pull the standing tail out/ per force applied! The girth/prusik's do everything mechanically possible to schedule themselves to hang on, then you can add the other leg too! 

"If one loop is a choke, a girth would be a death choke, a prusik would be a double, death choke etc.." -One of mine!

This examination all along exemplifies how important it is to pick the correct knot machine to your task, and Tie, Set, Dress and Inspect it correctly.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 10, 2002)

if going to a closed loop tress knot, start with a distal or swabish 3:1, much easier to use. I've been trying MT/VT and am not really happy. I heard that in drop testing they will hold for the first bounce then open, dropping the test load. 

I've also found Tenex to be too heat sensative for me to use. I did not bale out of a tree once and in less then 3 months I have at least one full strand severed. I'll be using ultratech from now on. Leave the tenex for rigging and adjustable MTIP

Justin, I think your knot may be overkill. My understanding of the friction dynamics is that most of the load is taken by the upper wraps, hence the reason for the 3:1 in the distal and swabish.


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## Stumper (Aug 10, 2002)

"Justin, I think your knot may be overkill."
JPS, You may be right,but it handles well-and I trust it.


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## Dave (Aug 11, 2002)

Hate to just delete these without posting them somewhere, this sems like as good a thread as any.


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## Dave (Aug 11, 2002)

view from the udder side


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## kf_tree (Aug 11, 2002)

those short tails look a little scarey to me, plus i would not not use auto locks. any thing that locks automaticly can unlock automaticly, i don't trust auto locks. screw gates are the only biners i use.


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## Dave (Aug 11, 2002)

I thought the same thing when I posted the pics, I think it's the $60.00 walmart camera, but I'm going to :Eye: :Eye: them in the morning. Never had any trouble with the Petzl William 'biners, but then I don't climb in ice storms. Had a Kong grenade grip? that would stick unlocked, didn't like that.


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## kf_tree (Aug 11, 2002)

just i little tid bit of info. the thumb print on the william ball lock is the thumb print of the guy that designed the biner.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 11, 2002)

Yo!

File this in the "For-What It's-Worth" column.

If you fall under the watch of ANSI regulations, scrrew gater biners don't pass section 3.7 of the Z-133 standard. 

While I was in Seattle I had a good, long talk with Graeme McMahon about screw vs. autolock. Neither of them exempt the climber from constant inspection.

Autolocks have a good working history in arboriculture though. Screw gates don't. By your logic, anything that can be screwed manually can be unscrewed by accident. I won't let anyone on my team climb with screw gates.

Tom


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 11, 2002)

Yo!

File this in the "For-What It's-Worth" column.

If you fall under the watch of ANSI regulations, scrrew gater biners don't pass section 3.7 of the Z-133 standard. 

While I was in Seattle I had a good, long talk with Graeme McMahon about screw vs. autolock. Neither of them exempt the climber from constant inspection.

Autolocks have a good working history in arboriculture though. Screw gates don't. By your logic, anything that can be screwed manually can be unscrewed by accident. I won't let anyone on my team climb with screw gates.

The tails on the FP are way too short! Besides, the cord is starting to unravel. After the double fishermans' is dressed you should stitch or at a minimum tape the ends for security purposes. Just becaues you never have had a problem doesn't mean they won't suck through. Have you followed the discussion on this thread about the way that the tautline rolls out without a stopper? The same action can take place here.

Tom


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 12, 2002)

Ive noticed that the fishermans knot on Spectra speed 8mm prussick , on which I tape the ends has been working lose.
I have now taken to stiching them....


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## murphy4trees (Aug 12, 2002)

How do you cut and finish the ends of the ultrtech. Also are lengths different for french prussic and the distal/swabish. Also how do you know when the ultratch is ready to be retired?
Thanks and anything else you would like to share will be appreciated.
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 12, 2002)

D.... Murph...
Ultra tech yukk....it just puckers to much ....to do with the loose weave.Cut ends with really sharpe(scott) sicissors.Lenghts detirmined by expirement ,my version of fp will also make a distal or swabish on yhe same lenght.Retire when you burn through the outer weave of Ultratech....easy to do...


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## Stumper (Aug 12, 2002)

Mr. Dunlap, Just curious, I thought the 'standard' defined double locking as requiring 2 separate motions to open. Why don't screwgates pass? Lots of recreational climbers (Rock et al) use 2 non locking biners reversed and opposed. That would seem very safe though not technically in accord with the Z. I'm old fashioned enough to still prefer double locking steel snaps but I was about to start using a screwlock and experiment with some of the variations of the Prusik. Please advise about the biners.


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## rbtree (Aug 12, 2002)

stumper,

A true double locking biner requires three motions to open. E.g., most doubles require a lateral movement of the gate before a twist. single lockers only require a twist before opening the gate. With the Petzl ball lockers, it is: push button, twist, open.


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## murphy4trees (Aug 12, 2002)

Rob,
I Am wondering if the "puckering" has to do with the way the ends are finished. Would melting ends help keep it from puckering ?
Word is Tenex will melt too low to use for the FP. What else do you use?
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 12, 2002)

Blue Streak is a Sampson product, Sherrill has some prorietary colors. Other companies have tehier colors too.

I've climbed on HyVee for years without a problem, used the white and the blue stuff in the line too. No problems with the product till this last hank I bought. I'll say more on it after i hear back form the vendor.


BTW, Fresco is selling a red, white and blue XTC-called XTC-USA


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 12, 2002)

i go with button-lox on lifeline stuff; as pre-scribed.

2 non-lox used to be eqauted with 1 screwgate etc. (as far as safety goes; with opposing gates in mountain stuff; don't think in rescue too much though. In most areas those are infrequent use.

In rigging i use screwgates, for single use. If hanging a pulley for redirect (multi-use without checking connections), i will use a more sophisticated 'biner; or 2 opposing screwgates in pair-allel(not series); also for peace of mind, i will schedule them so that the screwlox close down. Quietly calculating that they are less likely to open by screwing themselves up hill!

There are too many incedences of screw-lox opening up by rope (or something else) turning the lock open in use. This has proven to be a deadly strategy; try it too many times and you might be able to ask those persons, personally.


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## kf_tree (Aug 12, 2002)

there is alot to know about biners and there proper use. the reason i prefer screw gates is i've had auto locks OPEN on me twice. both times my life depended on the hinge point of an open gate, probably its weakest point when in the open position. i've also ice climbed with 2 seperate guides , when i went to belay them with an auto lock they took it away from me and handed me a screw gate. my auto locks are now used for hold downs in my pick up. if a screw gate opens because a rope ran across it , then it was used improperly. auto locks when used with a fig 8 are notorious for opening up in the rock and ice world. i have not heard any thing bad about the william ball locks. and auto locks do serve a purpose. there mainly used when jumaring up a fixed line and clipping off stopper knots. hey i could be wrong. but any thing that your life depends on is worth researching for its proper use and limitations. did you know omega biners are made by inmates in WA. not that i'm against that , most other biners are made over seas, so whats the difference. i just found out one my ice tools which i climbed with about 30 times is being recalled because some of that lot # had the heads popping off. even after you own and learn its proper use its worth it to check the manufacture's web site for recalls and saftey warnings. i think maybe ansi does not approve of screw gates because they are not as idiot proof as auto locks. on the big commercial mountaineering class's most of them ask the students to bring auto locks. the big reason is the guides do not have the time to go around and check to see if every one's biners are locked.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 12, 2002)

Does anyone else think it's odd that if a screw lock opens, it's because it's being use incorrectly, but if a double auto locking biner(the ones ANSI requires we use) opens, then it's the biner!

Having used both, I can say without a doubt, the screw lock is much more likely to open unintentionally.


Can-Do, 
Blue Streak is a great rope, buy it with confidence. Of all the ropes I've used it's among the best. Another favorite is XTC.


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## Dave (Aug 12, 2002)

Looked at the fp in the daylight today, tails are about 3/4" long. the cord came from Sherrill's, they dipped the ends in something that was supposed to keep them from ravelling, didn't work very well but did blob up the ends so I don't think they could ever pull through. Also, being a fisherman's knot the working end and tail come out together, opposite of the construction of a tautline. Bottom line- I'm comfortable with it, but if any of you guys are worried about me, Christmas isn't that far off and a cord with spliced eyes would be real nice.


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## kf_tree (Aug 12, 2002)

mike i was trying to post a few pics of what i was talking about with the fig 8's opening with an auto lock. but i was unable to shrink them down small enough to post. any suggestions on how to post them?


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## rbtree (Aug 13, 2002)

Mike, 

I'd advise not getting the spliced Ultratech. It is a funny splice, utilizing only the core. I'm sure it is plenty strong, but there is another problem. The splice length can interfere with getting the Vt dressed and working correctly. 

Along with others, including Tom Dunlap, and Mark Chisholm, ex ITCC champ, I have gone to 3/8 polyester double braid. it can be had for .30-40 cents per foot, is ~4800 lb tensile, and is woven tighter than ultratech, so should hold the core in. Just buy a bunch and experiment with length, and wraps. It works great for the distel/schwabisch, as well as the Vt. Being a bit larger, it seems resistant to burning, but at about $2 per hitch, what the heck...


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *Rob,
> I Am wondering if the "puckering" has to do with the way the ends are finished. Would melting ends help keep it from puckering ?
> Word is Tenex will melt too low to use for the FP. What else do you use?
> ...



Puckering has to do with the loose outer weave and ultra tech is very hard to burn.I use Spectra speed it has a high abrasive/UV resistant outer core with a tighter weave . Yuo could try double braid as Rog sugests.. :angel:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 13, 2002)

Is that like 'hardware store' Double Braid 3/8"?

Make double braid eyes a'la (Brion) Toss?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 13, 2002)

RB and others,
I recommend doing a distructive test with the prussic cords you are using.
Tie an old peice of 1/2" line to a tree, hook your cheap prussic to your truck, and have a friend drive away while you watch.
I think you will rethink the use of these lines.
Then try the ultra tech.
*Important:
Do NOT use ropes that have been distructively tested, cut them up and throw them away!


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## rbtree (Aug 13, 2002)

Mike, the ultratech doesnt work too well for schwabisch/distel.

The double braid is just fine, the outer is plenty heat resistant, no burning problems from fast descents. Testing would be a good idea, tho. Besides, at the price, retiring the cord after a few months makes sense. It wears better than Tenex, I'm sure, and is rated lower, but plenty high at 4800 single, so at least 6500 lb doubled and knotted.

spydey, yeah, it would splice easily enuf, but why, you'd have the handling issue where the splice is buried. a dubble fisherman's is reasonably small, almost bombproof. and a triple is even better, just a bit bigger.


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## rbtree (Aug 13, 2002)

Re the ultratech problem of the core coming out, which has never happened to mine till they were quite old, the new stuff has a tighter woven sheath with more but smaller strands, so it should solve the problem.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 13, 2002)

They are coming out with a wide variety of UT cords now. Don't know if anyone will carry them though.


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## murphy4trees (Aug 14, 2002)

Anyone know how Sherrill finishes the ends of ultrtech..
Looks like some kind of tape and then dipped.
Also heard it melts at 900*... maybe I'll take the torch to an end and see what happens.
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 14, 2002)

That is the sheath that has a high melting point. UT is kernmantle and the core has a very low melting point for rope work, so that is why the sheath is there.


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 14, 2002)

Got this info from the Samson website:

Ultra-Tech™ is a double braid rope construction that has its strength and stretch features developed from the braided Technora® core. The braided polyester cover creates a firm flexible working rope and protects the core from external wear.

Melting point of Technora Core 930°F.


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## rahtreelimbs (Aug 14, 2002)

Where are you guys getting the 3/8 double braid? Rich.


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## rbtree (Aug 15, 2002)

For me, it is easy, tons of fishing supply houses here.

Bet there is one near you. If not email me for help


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## murphy4trees (Aug 15, 2002)

New England ropes makes a 3/8 double braid... costs around .55/ft.
Daniel


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## murphy4trees (Aug 24, 2002)

Went a little wild on the phone 3x with Sherrill today... really nice people answering the phone down there. Anyhow found out that Sherrilll finishes the ends of the ultra-tech 51" cord, by dipping in 3M electrical coating. Sound a little scary, and I may see about picking some up.
God Bless,
Daniel


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 24, 2002)

Murphy,

Did you get a product number or name for the 3M product? 

I wonder if the rope end dip would work. I know that some climbers use Plasti-dip on the ends of ropes too.

Tom


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## kf_tree (Aug 24, 2002)

this is a pic i was trying to show. this has happened to me twice when useing an auto lock on a fig 8. i can't explain how or why but it happens.


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## Todd K. (Aug 24, 2002)

I learned on a taught line and steel snap. This worked well for me and our company. We climber this way for 8 years. Then we up graded to a Blakes with a split tail and micro pulley. This was only a mild improvement. For the past several years all of our climbers are using some form of a close ended climbing system. Speed and effeciency have improved and so has morale. Climbing trees is very difficult and any reduction in friction in your system makes for an easier day. These newer knots have huge bennefits, and work best when applied to a whole system witch includes using a friction saver. While in Saettle I noticed every competitor and every tech. about 50 climbers were all using a closed ended climbing system. These climbers are the best in the world, they must be using these systems for a reason. As far as taking your tail off of the rope, I take mine off every tree. By rotating the hot spots the cord lasts alot longer.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 24, 2002)

After i werk my tail off on every tree, then i take my tail off and straighten it out.

Spike, is that 'biner jammed, stiff gate, or opening during use? None is good! 

i think Fig. 8's corkscrew rope and you must deal with that force of twisting going on when using them. Especially after a lot of rope travel and the "free" end is trapping the twists by its own weight, or being trapped in any other way, allowing twists to build up worse as force is trapped in them.


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## rbtree (Aug 24, 2002)

Spike,

i cant say how biners open like that,as i have never had one open under load or when using an 8. However, that looks like an HMS double locking biner and it should not happen. Likely the last locking mechanism is not engaging. Clean the biner with a good solvent, then use WD-40 or preferably some graphite lube, such as that sold by Sherril.

I have retired or lost all my HMS's, a fine biner, now use mostly Kong "grenade gate", and Petzl ball locks for life support.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 24, 2002)

Yo!

I can see how that biner/8 configuration could open the gate. You should try using a Petzl green ball or another biner that has a different gatelock configuration. Another option would be to use an 8 with a smaller eye on the small end. This might reduce the chance of having the biner cross load and roll.

ISC has just come out with a line of biners called a Quadlock. They sent me a brochure and I've talked with an arbo on my other site [treeb***z] about these biners and he says they are really nice. Look forward to seeing what Denny Moorhouse brings over for Expo.

Tom


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 24, 2002)

I don't know about anyone else here but I check my biners before I descend. I just cannot see a biner turning while descending. sounds like the 8 was resting on the gate when the climber applied his weight. If an 8 opens an auto lock then it was the climber's fault, not the biner.


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## murphy4trees (Aug 24, 2002)

Did you get a product number or name for the 3M product?
No and it's a good idea..just didn't want to pester them... then agin I was spending close to half a thousand dollars... So maybe Monday I'll request that info.
I would like to see some kind of universal label or symbol on all 'biners that are acceptable for life support.. thus just a quick glance should be enough for a 10 year old to know if 'biner is for life support.
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 24, 2002)

Anybody ever try a stitch plate, or the stitchplate hole in some fig. 8's?


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 24, 2002)

Until there is a good system put into place, I look for two things when selecting a biner for life support: a minimum of 23 kN (5,170.4 lbs) and positive-locking gate (3 moves to open). 

If you look in the upper right hand corner of the Sherrill catalog on page 20, it spells it out pretty clear.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 24, 2002)

i like that, have gone with 22k when that was all there was in a style i was trying at the time.

Ffor my lifeline 'biner i don't use the modified 'D' 'biner; but the regular one, and i jam both ends of the tail in it and the tremination of my lifeline. That keeps it pretty straight on the strong axis of the 'biner all the time, cuz the top of the 'biner is so packed, stuff is tight and less likely to work around. Also, you have to stop, slacken line, slide all the eyes from behind the gate, then approch the normal procedure so that the gate so it can open!


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## kf_tree (Aug 24, 2002)

both times the biner opened the fig8 was not being used for rapeling. it was being used as a lowering device. it was not the same biner both times. i just used that one to demo the pic. i never really gave the petzl green ball lock biners a second look. i swore off auto locks after seeing that happen. i just said that would not happen with a screw gate. i'm just curious about why alot of guys prefer the auto locks. i'm not looking to pick a fight i'm just looking for the reasons behind the preference. after the fig 8 opened the auto lock i did some searching on the web and found that it was a fairly common problem when a fig8 is used with an auto lock. i tried searching for the page's today but was unable to find them to back me up. 
tree spyder is this what you mean by stitch plate(see pic) there commonly referred to as a gigi. i use one when belaying up someone on a climb , because it gives you the ability to go almost hands free. you could sneak a drink or snack as your belaying and it will lock off if they fall. but you still need to take up slack as they progress up. i've never saw a way i could adapt it for tree work.


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## kf_tree (Aug 24, 2002)

tree spyder, i'm not clear on your last post. how many items do you have attached to the biner as your life line?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 24, 2002)

I could sorta see that biner opening by having a downwards side pressure on it causing the gate to twist. 

Solution would be to flip it the other way sp that any force on the gate would be towards the locking direction.

The thought behind the consensus (ANSI is an industry consensus standard) of autolock is that it takes 3 separate motions to open them up. Same idea with requiring a locking snap. Screw gates can consevably open up while working in a tree.

I think this is just some of the nitpicking ANSI does. At least we don't have to tie in with two oposing biners.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 25, 2002)

Yo! Brooklyn...

If a bight of rope is pushed through the small eye on standard 8's and a biner clipped into the rope bight the eight can be used in a different belay mode, sometimes referred to as a stitch plate after the belay devices that are round with two slots in them. Tubers and ATCs have become much more popular.

You wrote: because it gives you the ability to go almost hands free. you could sneak a drink or snack as your belaying and it will lock off if they fall.

I sure hope that you're joking but I don't see a smiley face so I think that you're serious. Where and who taught you about the "Belay Contract"? In every climbing situtuation, outside arboriculture, the BC is a life/death contract with the climber. The belayer WILL NOT EVER take their belay/brake hand off of the rope and the belayer will pay 100% attention to the climber. What happens in the split second when you set your soda down and the climber falls? Oops, bounce....Get your copy of "Freedom of the Hills" and review the chapter on belaying.

Arbos have about the sloppiest belaying skills of any rope workers that I have seen. hand over hand and slack belays are the norm. So are less than optimal tools. Why arbos continue to use 8's is beyond me. Mine has been hanging in the tool locker for so many years, I can't remember the last time we used it for anything other than as an anchor or redirect.

Tom


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## kf_tree (Aug 25, 2002)

tom, you are 100% right in correcting me. i guess i should have put a  . the point i was trying to make is if set up correctly it will lock automaticly.(kind of goes against my rule of auto locks). i still would not trust one hands free. thanks for correcting my shoot from the hip words. i'll try and choose my words a little better.
last winter i went ice climbing with a guy i met on a ice climbing web site. the first day we mainly did top roping and i did the leading. i found it a little weird that he never questioned my anchors , as they were blind to him from the ground.(i jumped at the chance to set the ropes as i did not know if i could trust him. the next day i let him lead a route. when i got up to him and looked at the anchors he was belaying me from i almost lost it on him. i tried to correct his set up but he did not take advice well so i set up a rap anchor for both of us to come down. i coiled my ropes and left. the guy was 55 years old so i thought he would have been a good safe climber, boy was i wrong. 
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/StichtBelayPages/Sticht689.html have you seen this site yet? if you search around on the site its real informative.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 26, 2002)

Here is my sandwich of connections to lifeline 'biner. that stack is a lil thinner/ better positioned when pulled taut under load. The lines stay so tight it is unusual for them not to be loaded on the long axis of the 'biner, plus it puts an extra safety on the gate opening.

I have had trouble with the 'biner pictured with fig. 8, with the locking safety cylinder spinning around the gate.

I don't think that the (bronge colored) aluminum is the kind we have talked about strength wise. It seems soft, especially at hardest points for it to 'defend' of its own; ie. at the ends of this cylinder. So on that piece it is easier to get a slight bend that hangs or hooks the cylinder, not giving as positive a close. Specifically at it's pins on hinge, or at the other extreme, bending at it's mouth that embraces the open end of the 'biner.

Here is the friction hitch page from vertical devices mentioned above. It is very interesting to view and assess the interesting friction hitches and 'biner uses our mountaineering (and farther evolved) brethren have devised. Noting their commonalities, yet simplicities, and how important it is to make each knot right, and how closely related many are. {http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/SemiMech.html#anchor5339178}


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 26, 2002)

Spidey,

Clipping the slack tending biner where you did could lead to the bowline being inverted and untied. This isn't a way that I recommend.

Tom


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 26, 2002)

Ken, 

That is some scary looking gear there.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 26, 2002)

Well, Tim the gear/ropes are new (save keychain 'biner/knot tender)! The knots are a double bowline w/Ytie off and 3 over 1 Distall with eye splices on each captured eye......... So, am not sure what you are referring to.

Tom, thought i considered all angles of this bowline and this knot tending application, but that was some years ago; what do you see? i am aware of a bowline being able to turn into a slip-knot for the slip-knot method of making a bowline is what i use to deal with the 2 choking rings i put in (rather than 1) as i make it.

Included is another pic, showing the hazard i believe you are talking about in a simple bowline, then how i thought i had that beat in this application.

Am open to any explorations, i like this simpler, compacter knot rather than VT (besides Tom taught it to me on other board some time ago, 1 upping me on prussik being best for adj. lanyard!), also less play from the time you pull down till knot is pushed up by tender. Have tried eyesplices in line, still order one every once in a while, but like the wider flexability/ utility of temp. eye (double bowline) think it comes in at 70% strength except in Spectra.


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 26, 2002)

Ken,

You need to clip that slack tender to the biner or inside the loop of the bowline. 

What is that 3 strand rated at?


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## hillbilly (Aug 26, 2002)

*how about this one ?*

This is my choice of a tie in knot.
A bowline finished off with a double fisherman's knot.
Never had it, never heard of it, untieing or inverting.

This is one long thread by the way


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 26, 2002)

Spidey,

The latest pic is much more clear. ths seesm like it would work.

Why not use a barrel knot and clip the biner to the first loop of rope that chokes at the biner. By using the barrel knot there isn't a loop of rope like with a bowline.

Adding a barrel knot to the top of a bowline is great but much more complicated than the Yosemite tie off.

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 26, 2002)

Mmmmmmmm, not sure there about attatchment point choice you are recommending, will try to play with what ya say; but have studied and polished this nice and long.

The 3strand is my 2nd choice 3strand Samson ProMaster @5800 (for treework)test; it has those stiffer fibres in it like Arboplex, that aren't as strong, flexible, heat worthy as nylon/polyester IMAO ! i like NE HyVee 3 strand, when local fella ordered he brought me this 'better' stuff; kinda took it cuz i talked him into carrying ropes etc. a while back............

But it has done alright. The stiffer fibres also don't let ya lay it out flatter for making eye splices. And one of the simplest, things that Brion Toss said about this splicing in his tape is the importance of getting the splicing strands to lay flat in a ribbon. In that way, there is more surface area to grip, and deforms the rope less in the making. These 2 things that are exercised in the peak top knotting (eye splice) for strength and security; can give you a better, wider respect for the same in all knots and lacings. IMAO 3 strand splicing is so ez, and shows knotting at its simple best, that anyone serious about knots should know how to do it well. i use it for short things like lanyards, tails, and experiments; FS might be next. Feel like i flunked expert 16 strand splicing years ago.

I like the Yosemite tie off for its security and keeping the tail out of the way for repeated use. i like Tom's input that the tail gets a better choke if threaded down and not up like in Y tieoff, but prefer the tail ending up out of the way, so settle for 2 choking rings on bowline and Y tieoff as very, very secure, with a lil'more strength (because of the 2 choking rings). In utility stuff with throwline i have gone up thru the eye (Yosemite), down the other side (Tom's way) then back up (Yosemite again) to make a positve termination because of the small diameter, slipperyness and stiffness of the throwline all compounded against the knot being secure.

Also, used throw line tied in double constrictor in place of a hose clamp for power steering last week and just replaced it. Kinda wanted to see how long it would last, but Nyeaaaaaaaaaaah!

How we tie in should be a long thread, perhaps we've just begun!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 26, 2002)

Hillbilly, that looks like a jacked bo'lin to me.


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## hillbilly (Aug 27, 2002)

*Jacked bo'lin ?*

JPS, explain to the Swede, what is a jacked bo'lin ?
Is it a jacked bowline ? And if so, what would that be ?
I'm beginner in aided tree climbing, so there might be
better ways to finish off a bowline, this is the one I learned,
and I feel very safe with it.


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## rbtree (Aug 27, 2002)

hillbilly,

Read spidey's previous post about the Yosemite tieoff, which is a good way to back up or "finish off" a bowline. Conversely, a jacked bowline, whch uses two loops instead of one, is just a better bowline, but not a way of "finishing" it off.

Question for all: What are you attaching the bowline to? If it is a carabiner, that is unsafe, as a loose knot can led to side loading onto tthe minor axis of a biner, which is not good. I use a double fisherman's bend, actually am using a triple more for added safety. this is the knot of choice for prussic loops also, both closed and open ended. Better yet, get your lifelines spliced.


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## Tim Gardner (Aug 27, 2002)

The Buntline hitch, anchor hitch and the double fishermans's loop are good to tie off with.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 27, 2002)

That is why i stack a 'biner full, so lines can't work around, also; used to climb on screw lox, so used that bulk to impede the gate opening when loaded.

In a modified D i have made big enough bowline eye to girth onto the 'biner; but didn't like the way it looked for some reason.

i use the same bowline all day to carry and rig the rigging line. 
Snapping 'biners and slings into it all day, sometimes for multiple cuts at once. i also keep a 'biner in the eye of it, for: carrying, throw weight and threading in "1/2hitch w/running 'biner" type lacings on load (would be running bowline, but 'biner as final choking ring is reuasable-open/closable/locking ring) etc. So, i have complete confi-dance in this double/roundturn/mountaineering/super bowline for max./increased strength/security ease of tying/untying (i use slip knot method to lace both rings easily), then backed up further with the Yosemite tie off instead of a stopper knot (who's need is lessened by the 2 choking rings). Then for all that work in and out of the eye of the bowline with 'biners all day, really, really appreciate the eye being clear and clean, becasue of the way that the Yosemite folds it back, chokes it, and keeps it out of the way; keeping eye very open and ready.

The combination of the 2 ring bowline and Yosemite tie off also yield another important aspect. From "On Rope" Padgett and Smith (excellent #16201) i got a respect for knot inspection, buddy knot inspection etc. Our moutnaineering bros. seem to go towards the fig. 8 family of knots (that take less loading to be troublesome IMAO); for ez id of knots; i think that this combo makes the knot more symetrical and more immediately, easily identifiable and checkable; esp. reusing the same knot all day in many ways and journies. So to my TDS program i expanded to Tie, Dress, Set and Inspect. 

Every day we untie all knots and relax the lines, all this allowing easier threading with throwline, diffrent loading/wear point, adj. size etc. in our temporary eye in trade off for the higher strength of a permanent eye splice.

The bowline has been long touted as "The King of Knots"; its simplicity, strength, and grace in not jamming and utility is quite a ballet. To me this knot i use and sliding it in with slip knot has become what looks right, anb definitely an improvement over the basic style. The king knot probably deserves it's own thread; examing the fine diffrence betwixt it and its close relative the sheet bend and how simply they both employ a 1/2 hitch for their magic.....

P.S. i like anchor bend as long as it is dry; wet is tough too loosen; but still breferr double bowline with Y tie off as temporary eye for termination and utility, especially with 'biner in the eye.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 27, 2002)

Spyder, you failed to mention the two ringed bowline increases the bend radius of the loops in the knot, thereby making it stronger.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 27, 2002)

Anchor tails to the side







Anchor with a half hitch tie off

Fishermans tails back up paralel the working end of the rope. It is basicly an overhand knot, the double has 2 turns a tripple has 3, down then back up.

Could not find a pic using it as a terminating knot, only as joining two ropes.

Knot freek? here is some "light" reading
Links on Knot Theory-http://search.dogpile.com/texis/search?q=Knot+theory&geo=no&brand=dogpile&cat=web


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## Stumper (Aug 28, 2002)

Have to agree with spydy that the bowline is the King of knots. The anchor hitch has a sterling reputation. My prefered tie to a snap or biner is the Buntline.-Compact, economical in line length used, and I 've never had it creep.(And if you are useing eyed snaps or thimbles it works better than the Anchor hitch.)


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 28, 2002)

Aanchor hitch mechanically sets load to grab tail 2x after friction wraps, very smooth, clean, simple machine. Jams when wet.

OK, BIG GUY, HOW'D YOU DO THAT, I'M JEALOUS!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 28, 2002)

Find the .GIF on another page, copy .GIF URL

come back to A'Site, click on IMG button on message page.

paste .GIF URL into IMG feild, click "OK" button

  

There are apps you can get that will assemble a gif animation from a series of pics. I'm not that interested, yet.


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## Stumper (Sep 7, 2002)

After 113 posts it seemed appropriate to resurrect this thread. I've been experimenting with a 3 over 2 Swabisch and am really liking it-graps firmly with no inclination to inch along the line but slides oh so easy when you want it to.
Query: How many descend on a figure 8 or a Munter on a 'biner as opposed to descending on the hitch alone. ( I know there is a lot of published literature saying to use a belay device with a friction hitch back up. But I've always descendedon my hitch -NOT rapid descents.


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## hillbilly (Sep 7, 2002)

Kinda depens, if having worked my way down to the last branches
and it's just a couple of meters to the ground, I descend on the friction hitch. If I think there's gonna be trouble pulling down
the false crotch, I'll climb up to it, remove it, and descend on
a figure-8 backuped with a Klemheist.
Anyone ever used a stitch plate or similar device for descents ?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 7, 2002)

i think that fig. 8's and muenter (which i beleive is harder on line, yet provides more braking, than single wrap fig. 8) corkscrew the line too much for me. Especially on long drops, stiff line (more corkscrewing) with lots of line left over (that doesn't let tangles kick off the end).

i played with a stitch plate a while back, didn't get too serious with it. Has anyone ever used a 'rack' for a friction/braking device on loads?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 7, 2002)

I know a window washer who uses a rack. Tom D. uses a Stop.

I will use a munter on a long rap, butmostly will bail on the hitch.

Ken, how does that Yellow Jacket, I see in the stitch plate pic, work for you?


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

A stich plate is a belay device only. I used one for many yrs of climbing... The small hole in figure 8's is similar, also for belaying.

It is designed to pass the rope freely for climbing, but lock up under a fall. Thus, its action is not appropriate for descending....


...except for certain spidey types....


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 7, 2002)

Haven't tried the Yellow Jacket yet; had to get it to grab that deal! All of it is in the bag except that end thru a hole for pix. i like keeping a virgin line around, just so their is zero, nil, no hesitation to change out; removes all the ex-cusses!!!!!

i drag the rope on my feet too. This gives 'feel' that there is more rope; and breaks up the total amount of friction even further, allowing heat to dissipate between each point. For just as with the FS, it takes the same amount of friction per load/speed; if it isn't present at one point (redirect, friction hitch, dragging feet on line, friction from other limbs rubbing etc.) it must be made up at another point to equal the same braking factor.

Also i think that a muneter grinds the rope against itself, and puts the tightest bight on the rope, and the only one of the three that has more friction buildup (thermal insulator on thermal insulator; synthetic on synthetic), rather than total synthetic on heat dissapating metals of which aluminum would help better than steel.


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## hillbilly (Sep 9, 2002)

*just had to continue on this thread*

RBTree, you're right, the stitch plate is a belay device only.
What I meant with "similar device" was the tube-breaks
or the ATC from Black Diamond.
I know people use them for rappelling in rock climbing,
anyone tried 'em with arborist rope ?
Would think the didn't twist the rope like an figure 8.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 9, 2002)

There are much safer tools for arbos to use for rapping. Since we work in a climbing system that is "Let go/stop falling" I believe that our hard wired brains might get confused in the case of a slip. Unless there is some kind of backup for any figure eight/tuber/ATC family device, arbos are setting themselves up for a grounder.

The Kong Indy, Antec tool: http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Rappel/BobbinPages/FBobbin546.html or another tool that features a panic stop. With these two tools the only time your can descend is when the release lever is in the "Sweet Spot" Grab or release and it locks. Much safer.

Sinc arbo ropes is much bigger than rock rope you must check the manufacturers specs to see what size rope can be used. The dharcteristices might change catastrophically if the rope isn't the right size.

Tom


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