# Turned in the Comp today



## newb (Jul 28, 2008)

I live in small town USA. Although I do alot of my work in the city. Today one of my customers calls me and says I have to get there right away. His neighbor is having a tree taken down by a "professional" service. He has his bucket there with his chipper. No harness or helmet on him, I can live with that. Three guys on the ground stuffing the chipper, no ppe on any of them. Here's the problem. The oldest is maybe 12 the other two younger. I am not kidding, I could have hurled. I thought about it, and I called the local cop. He talked to me and I expressed my concern. He agreed and went over and shut him down. How do these guys live with themselves. Pete


----------



## JeffL (Jul 28, 2008)

Thats terrible. Good on ya for callin em in.


----------



## paul soccodato (Jul 28, 2008)

"You Dirty Rat!"

You did the right thing.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Jul 28, 2008)

If those were the guy's kids, I would be pissed if I was him. My old man had us doing all kinds of stuff young and I loved it, PPE or not. Personally my kids will have PPE, all we had was a rope and saddle and I was climbing technically "professionally" since I was 12 and so was my brother.

If he was hiring other kids that young and not protecting them then there's a case, maybe. Maybe he will take the situation to court. Some small town cop's opinion doesn't mean much. I think he'd have to prove he was employing minors.

If you're from Iron Ridge, you should know what I am talking about. Just my country boy opinion.

On a side note, my boy's will be feeding the chipper by the time they're 8, and climbing with saws at 12. Train em' right and let them go. Scare's the sh1t out of people, my dad got that a lot when we were young, and he raised 4 very skilled/competent leaders. Personally I would applaud the kids for working.


----------



## ddhlakebound (Jul 28, 2008)

I've taken my young teenage boys to easy jobsites (where I stay on the ground) to drag brush and lug block, supervised. 

Having them run the chipper unsupervised as pre-teens seems to be pretty high on the "could I be more irresponsible" list, to me. 

On the other hand, I'm never a fan of calling in the law unless it's absolutely necessary. Man up, and walk over there and ask him what the hell he's doing yourself. 

I wonder how many drunks drove by while the small town cop was on chipper safety patrol.


----------



## Adkpk (Jul 28, 2008)

When I was in the Boy Scouts (about 12, I didn't last to long) We got caught with a dozen cartons of cigarettes and other contraband. It was a big summer camp in the Adirondacks. They took us out in the woods and made us feed a chipper for three days. Like ten of us. I couldn't believe it. We were eaten alive with mosquitoes. 

My question is, where were then newb?:hmm3grin2orange: 

My dear ole dad was scoutmaster.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jul 28, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> If those were the guy's kids, I would be pissed if I was him.



Yeah ...

But i think the example he saw may be nearly equivalent to child abuse.

You know like where people leave their kids unattended in vehicles, or in locked hot vehicles.

In other words, putting them in dangerous situations. Various conditions with the potential for harm.

That may have been what was running throught the policeman's thoughts.

He didn't just say they were stuffing the chipper, he said there was no ppe on them, if I read that right. That's not at all the same as just letting some kid operate a tractor on a farm at age 11. That would be like letting a kid drive a tractor, but with all the safety equipment removed, like brakes and roll bars gone and just "winging it".


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 28, 2008)

I would have took those kids some hard hats and eye wear 
just to see the reaction and provide a safer environment.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Jul 28, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Yeah ...
> 
> But i think the example he saw may be nearly equivalent to child abuse.
> 
> ...




You mean like how we all grew up driving tractor. You were lucky if you had brakes and that's the truth. Never had roll bars either. I am sorry but that isn't child abuse.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 28, 2008)

When I was 12 I got into a little bit of trouble for trying to put my hand up a ladies skirt. She must have been 40 at the time. But hey, she wasn't stopping me.


----------



## treemandan (Jul 28, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> You mean like how we all grew up driving tractor. You were lucky if you had brakes and that's the truth. Never had roll bars either. I am sorry but that isn't child abuse.



Child abuse is the other thing. Flip flops, video games and way to much food. I plowed fields and milked cows around the same age. Drove under some branches that knock the muffler into my face, kept going. Work work work work work work.
I actually was pretty good at super mario brothers 3 but that's it, wasn't my game anyway.


----------



## treemandan (Jul 28, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> When I was 12 I got into a little bit of trouble for trying to put my hand up a ladies skirt. She must have been 40 at the time. But hey, she wasn't stopping me.



So how far you get?


----------



## treemandan (Jul 28, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I would have took those kids some hard hats and eye wear
> just to see the reaction and provide a safer environment.



Always can trust you to do the right thing.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> So how far you get?



I was just about to "it" when my uncle entered the room and yelled out "Boy, what do you think you are doing?" My uncle was a preacher of sorts. It was at a Christmas party at my Grandma's house about 1972. Then my dad got wind of it and I got hauled home and that was the end of the party for me.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Always can trust you to do the right thing.



I would rather help keep them safe than call some cop over
maybe the dad would buy them some if he saw its value.
It may make him think enough to realize his error without
making trouble for him probably trying to feed them kids,
want him on welfare? Not me and his kids are learning
work ethic and I assure you I held a post for my father to
drive and yes he missed and hit me, next time I held it with
channel locks and he did not have to tell me


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Jul 29, 2008)

I think you did the right thing. Its might have been considered okay to run a chipper without the gear when he was a kid, but to have his own kids doing it? Thats just doing harm to them, just like sending them out in winter without enough clothes or making them work with asbestos.


----------



## Treeinnovator (Jul 29, 2008)

the focus should be on that this neighbor hired a "professional tree service". when we all hire professionals in anything you expect a certain level of workmanship, safety, and resposibility to come with it. i'm all for teaching kids good skills while their young ... but not on an official jobsite.

if the guy wants to have his boys to learn to run the chipper. do it back at the shop, not on some customer's house.


----------



## treemandan (Jul 29, 2008)

Treeinnovator said:


> the focus should be on that this neighbor hired a "professional tree service". when we all hire professionals in anything you expect a certain level of workmanship, safety, and resposibility to come with it. i'm all for teaching kids good skills while their young ... but not on an official jobsite.
> 
> if the guy wants to have his boys to learn to run the chipper. do it back at the shop, not on some customer's house.



See? he's just been F-ing with Ya the whole time... and probably still is.
Qualamalans, yeah right.


----------



## Treeinnovator (Jul 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> See? he's just been F-ing with Ya the whole time... and probably still is.
> Qualamalans, yeah right.



my quatemalans are 20+ yrs old. down here, landscape businesses are MORE credible with them.... people expect to see immigrant workers and a white man boss show up.


----------



## treemandan (Jul 29, 2008)

Treeinnovator said:


> my quatemalans are 20+ yrs old. down here, landscape businesses are MORE credible with them.... people expect to see immigrant workers and a white man boss show up.



You ain't got no God dam quatemalens and you know it.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 30, 2008)

newb said:


> How do these guys live with themselves. Pete



Good job Pete. It is hazardous work and little kids should not be in the work area.

Maybe if Mom is supervising and the kids are not stuffing....

Just because child labor laws were violated 20-30 years ago does not make it right today. That one or four people here survived is an anecdote, there are enough statistics of injury and death to justify the way the laws are written.


----------



## ms310 (Jul 30, 2008)

*Question*



mckeetree said:


> When I was 12 I got into a little bit of trouble for trying to put my hand up a ladies skirt. She must have been 40 at the time. But hey, she wasn't stopping me.


Mckee did you get in trouble for putting your hand up her skirt or for not having on ppe (pe*&s protection equipment)

As far as here in michigan if a cop is driving down the road and sees a kid on a motorcycle, fourwheeler etc with out a helment on he can turn you in for child neglect. In mpo a chipper is alot more dangerous than a 4 wheeler or motorcycle. I think i would have had a talk with the old man, because i personally wouldnt want to get him in a situation where he is charged with child neglect, and possibley loose his kids. If after the talking he hadnt listened then i would have to talk to the cops


----------



## newb (Jul 30, 2008)

Seriously Guys, This is a man who has been running a biz for over 20 years. He has never used PPE. I know the company that he trained under and it was run the same way. Along comes Pete and tells him the dangers in how he's running his site. You really think a light will come on and he'll say "WOW I never thought about that". I'm walking away, but first I'm reporting him...every time. Pete


----------



## Wortown Mick (Jul 30, 2008)

So tell me.. In what way does PPE stop you from chipper injury or death?
None, whatsoever.(Hearing loss aside)

A brain bucket might stop a skull fracture from a widowmaker and just leave you with a broken neck, but it doesnt pull last chance cords for you or anything. 

If the man in the bucket was working slow / throwing his cuts down/ not just lettin them ride, and being mindful of the fact he had children for helpers the situation wasnt all that dangerous provided the kids had some sort of training and experience with a chipper.

Newb, the fact you even showed up to the customers house is sad. 
But the fact you called the police before you even spoke with your "competition" is disgusting.

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both."

Shouldnt you have been working instead of being a nosey busybody narc?
Thats old lady shiet, friggen vagine.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 30, 2008)

ms310 said:


> Mckee did you get in trouble for putting your hand up her skirt or for not having on ppe (pe*&s protection equipment)
> 
> As far as here in michigan if a cop is driving down the road and sees a kid on a motorcycle, fourwheeler etc with out a helment on he can turn you in for child neglect. In mpo a chipper is alot more dangerous than a 4 wheeler or motorcycle. I think i would have had a talk with the old man, because i personally wouldnt want to get him in a situation where he is charged with child neglect, and possibley loose his kids. If after the talking he hadnt listened then i would have to talk to the cops



I got in trouble for putting my hand up her skirt.


----------



## custom8726 (Jul 30, 2008)

Calling the cops was not the answer IMO... There were plenty of better alternitives to try first.


----------



## RedlineIt (Jul 30, 2008)

> So tell me.. In what way does PPE stop you from chipper injury or death?
> None, whatsoever.(Hearing loss aside)



Yeah, deafness is a wave off. Wave off speaking people for the rest of your life. Unless you learn to read lips, when you should have read the manual.

Proper eye protection while operating a chipper, what do the manufacturers know, what does OSHA know, scraped cornea are a cheap and easy fix.



> "Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both."



I'm guessing this is not actually a quote from one of the United States founding fathers, your Constitution, Bill of Rights, or Supreme Court.

In fact, I'm guessing lame anwar losers.

----------------------------

newb,

You did the right thing.


RedlineIt


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Jul 30, 2008)

I've got my 10 year old in training on side jobs with all the PPE. He wears it like a badge.

He won't be feeding any chippers any time soon though. There is plenty else for him to do and master first.

I would have rather confronted the man first...alone. Then maybe, I would have taken someone with me if he wouldn't hear me. (in this case, the caller) 

The law would have been a last resort for me too, but I'm not judging....if you aren't comfortable with confrontation at least you know that no kid became chipper fodder on your watch. That's enough....and far more important than anyone's feelings on whether you did the right thing or not.

When someone takes a group of kids out in public, work or play, and puts them in harms way, they are opening themselves up for honest community concern. There is nothing wrong with that, community concern, provided it stays in bounds.

Put the kids to work, you bet, but give them the tools and PPE better than we had it where we can. And yet, teach them the old paths and old ways so they can know.

Protect them, they are an awesome investment, so that they can work another day.


----------



## Wortown Mick (Jul 30, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> Yeah, deafness is a wave off. Wave off speaking people for the rest of your life. Unless you learn to read lips, when you should have read the manual.
> 
> Proper eye protection while operating a chipper, what do the manufacturers know, what does OSHA know, scraped cornea are a cheap and easy fix.
> 
> ...



I have NEVER been hit in the face, let alone the eye with a wood chip flying out of a chipper while I was operating it. Ive only been hit with chips when I was taking a piss in the back of the truck and the other groundie ran a little branch through to get me, I told him I was takin a leak and not to chip 

Ive been hit in the face with brush jumping around / twisting and I suppose it could cause injury.
So about how far away can you tell if somones wearing earplugs? 

My point is the clear and present danger of a chipper is being chipped.
PPE doesnt stand a chance.


As far as calling the cops goes, its was just such a bonehead move.. Something a little old lady with 17 cats and not a self respecting grown man would do without damn good reason. Im afraid a couple kids that were actually outside, and not playing video games, let alone WORKING without some brain buckets, does not merit a 911 call.

As far as that quote, its actually mafia related.. Omerta.
Anwar losers? Arctic national wildlife refuge? Anti-War? 

The other part of the quote is "for a wounded man shall say to his assailant " If I live, I will kill you. But if I die, you are forgiven. Such is the rule of honor"

Basicly means keep your mouth shut and dont talk to police, town officials, anyone official, take care of your own problems. _Like a man_


So does he get paid for occupational safety?
Like I said earlier, the fact that guy even went to his customers house not to do or bid work but to snoop on another company and report them..
I hope he drove a lettered vehicle and that guy saw hisr company name so he can catch a beating or have some gear or saws fall off his truck. 
Not speaking to the guy first = spineless


----------



## Wortown Mick (Jul 30, 2008)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I've got my 10 year old in training on side jobs with all the PPE. He wears it like a badge.
> 
> He won't be feeding any chippers any time soon though. There is plenty else for him to do and master first.
> 
> ...



Short of tethering a kid 3 feet away from the edge of the infeed chute no amount of PPE will prevent a kid from being chipper fodder if they start getting fed.
Thats fact.


----------



## reachtreeservi (Jul 30, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> Like I said earlier, the fact that guy even went to his customers house not to do or bid work but to snoop on another company and report them..
> I hope he drove a lettered vehicle and that guy saw hisr company name so he can catch a beating or have some gear or saws fall off his truck.
> Not speaking to the guy first = spineless



I agree that calling the law instead of talking to a treeman is spineless.

I also think that stealing gear or saws off another treeman is worse than spineless.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Jul 30, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> Short of tethering a kid 3 feet away from the edge of the infeed chute no amount of PPE will prevent a kid from being chipper fodder if they start getting fed.
> Thats fact.



I never said PPE would save a kid from getting fed. That is why mine isn't running a chipper.

At any rate, that's not what the PPE is for. There are other hazards, if indeed unbeknownst to you.

That's fact.

BTW, your anarchist rant is so naive, juvenile, and so safe considering all that surrounds you.

I can understand your feelings about calling the law first, but total disregard for the law, especially with your projection of messing with another man’s vehicle and property, I find both cowardly and hypocritical.

I suppose anarchy is only fun to the novice when he is not the victim.


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Jul 31, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> I have NEVER been hit in the face, let alone the eye with a wood chip flying out of a chipper while I was operating it. Ive only been hit with chips when I was taking a piss in the back of the truck and the other groundie ran a little branch through to get me, I told him I was takin a leak and not to chip
> 
> Ive been hit in the face with brush jumping around / twisting and I suppose it could cause injury.
> So about how far away can you tell if somones wearing earplugs?
> ...




1) I have been hit in the face and chest plenty. Worst was by a 20 inch being fed by a excavator. I had a face screen and the piece still broke my lip. Been hit by branches ALOT while they kick around being fed in. When chipping dead stuff there is so much dust, eye protection is a must or you end up chipping with your eyes half closed-not good. 

2) If the guy had been doing trees for 20 years, approaching him would have not achieved ANYTHING aside from getting him angry. Guys hate it when told how to do there job (especially from their competition) or how to treat their kids. It doesnt matter for what reason or how stupid they are obviously being. He was puting his kids in danger and causing them harm due to his own ignorance. Only the law was going to have an influence on his actions. Its not spineless, it was smart. 

A few years back while on a quote I found the home owner cutting old asbestos sheets with a skil saw with his son holding one end, both in a cloud of dust. I asked as nicely as I could that he was doing a good job but if he thought puting on masks would be a good idea, and I had a couple in the truck he and his son was very welcome to use for nothing. "F$$$ off you nosey ^unt." was his answer. 
"Fine" says I, so I go to the house and talk to his wife, explain what it was like to watch a family friend die from mesothelioma (form of lung cancer) and left the scene with her tearing ten types of heck out of him.
A few month back I was at a friends house warming and bumped into him, we didnt recognise each other and started yarning. Nice guy, loves his kids, his 2 dogs and motorcycles. It wasnt until he pointed out his wife I relised who he was. He didnt click to who I was at all, and I certainly didnt bring it up. I asked my friends about him and hes a regular, reasonable, good guy. BUT OFTEN YOU CANT TELL A GUY HOW TO DO HIS JOB OR HOW TO TREAT HIS KIDS AND EXPECT HIM TO TAKE IT REASONABLY.

He had the choice to do something to lessen then risk to those kids, or do nothing. He did the only think that was likely to achieve anything positive, and calling the law was the only thing that was likely to change the situation. Great work man!


----------



## RedlineIt (Jul 31, 2008)

> Ive been hit in the face with brush jumping around / twisting and I suppose it could cause injury.



You're an adult, or nearly so. 

In the adult world, we don't suppose. We sit down around tables and discuss accident reports of lost eyeballs, lacerated eyeballs, how they were plucked out, depths of laceration, percentage of permanent vision loss, costs of restoring some vision, how to prevent recurrence. 



> My point is the clear and present danger of a chipper is being chipped.



Or deafness. Or blindness. Teeth knocked out. Concussion.
------------------------

Omerta? Should have known. Boys club rules set up to keep the members solidly outside of the law. A false machismo, peer pressure similarly found in the Hell's Angels, drug gangs from M-13 to a group of punks in Mendocino, and enforced on every frat plebe since before Senator Kennedy's liver turned green.

Operating outside the law, or taking the law into one's own hands, neither of these are rational choices for an adult member of a properly functioning society. Lawlessness is for those who wish for society to break down, vigilantism is for those who have seen it's collapse.

When children are at risk...I have no problem with calling a cop.


RedlineIt


----------



## glenn31792 (Jul 31, 2008)

Glad I was a kid so many years ago. Wouldn't trade doing all that
dangerous sh** for anything. Driving tractors, compactors and
forklifts was fun. The jackhammer in 8th grade was a bit heavy
but it was fun cracking up those sidewalks.
Maybe that guy knows his kids ability better than you, then again 
he may not. I wonder how little time his kids sit playing with the
play station 3?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 31, 2008)

PPE, chipper use and child labor are 3 different problems.

It was not too long ago that we had an adult sucked into a chipper because he did not properly respect the machine. Kids are constitutionally incapable of knowing cause an effect.

If it were on his own land it would be a different thing, e.g. working the farm; but this is residential, for hire work. 

I find it ironic that some of those who scream the loudest about use of illegal migrant labor find nothing wrong with illegal child labor.

Lastly I think these things reflect poorly on the industry, one more instance where it proves to the world that we are not professionals, but general labor one step above thrash pickers because we have a few more tools.

PPS, I know the type of operations in Pete's area. For the most part they will not do the work if they cannot back the bucket onto the tree and hack off everything above them. You drive through Iron Ridge, Horicon, Theresa (all 400-1000 people strong) and surrounding areas and it seems every other house has a tr4ee that's been topped in the past 5 years.


----------



## newb (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks John, And those that are in my corner. Its been interesting reading the comments. I know how I run my business. Its interesting that those who are afraid to list their town or real name are the ones who yelled the loudest about my manhood. Reading those comments by someone who themselves are hiding behind the curtain are an interesting look into how they run their operations. The comp I turned in knows it was me, knows where I live, and knows where I park my equipment. Like I said I didn't need to talk to him but I couldn't live with myself if those kids got hurt and I did nothing. Pete


----------



## tree MDS (Jul 31, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> I have NEVER been hit in the face, let alone the eye with a wood chip flying out of a chipper while I was operating it. Ive only been hit with chips when I was taking a piss in the back of the truck and the other groundie ran a little branch through to get me, I told him I was takin a leak and not to chip
> 
> Ive been hit in the face with brush jumping around / twisting and I suppose it could cause injury.
> So about how far away can you tell if somones wearing earplugs?
> ...


Just for the record (and no I havent finished reading this thread), based solely on this post, I like this guy, lol. I'm giving rep!


----------



## tree MDS (Jul 31, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> You're an adult, or nearly so.
> 
> In the adult world, we don't suppose. We sit down around tables and discuss accident reports of lost eyeballs, lacerated eyeballs, how they were plucked out, depths of laceration, percentage of permanent vision loss, costs of restoring some vision, how to prevent recurrence.
> 
> ...


Some good points indeed- still I have to wonder exactly what new b's core motivations actually were with regards to turning in the "competion"??


----------



## tree MDS (Jul 31, 2008)

reachtreeservi said:


> I agree that calling the law instead of talking to a treeman is spineless.
> 
> I also think that stealing gear or saws off another treeman is worse than spineless.


 I actually agree with you for once reach. Where the hell do all those FN stars come from?? What is there some sort of secret kiss A$$ club or something?? lol.


----------



## pdqdl (Jul 31, 2008)

*That was true once upon a time...*



Nailsbeats said:


> You mean like how we all grew up driving tractor. You were lucky if you had brakes and that's the truth. Never had roll bars either. I am sorry but that isn't child abuse.



I grew up never knowing a tractor had brakes that worked. Fortunately, the spinning drum and the friction pad on the hand-lever clutch usually stopped it. I did all that stuff dangerous stuff, too.

Nowadays, we are afraid to admit on this forum that we might occasionally work without all our PPE, and we are more than ready to condemn others that post pictures that show anything less than perfect procedures for tree work.

Given that there are child labor laws that are VERY specific about what kinds of machinery children can run, and for how long, I am surprised to see this many responses supporting the use of kids on tree work. Granted, they can learn to work young, just like many of us did, but if one of them showed up in the injuries/fatalities forum, there would be a massive response of professional condemnation.

Kids at 12 are not allowed to work a chipper, but the cops probably don't know the child labor laws either.

Here is a good guideline: http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/childlabor101.pdf

The tricky part is that the laws only seem to apply to businesses engaged in interstate commerce. So a hard working tree service might be able to thumb their nose at the feds if they don't cross a state line. On the other hand, each state probably has their own laws that regulate intra-state child labor.

Some notes from the federal document cited above:

Specifically, 14 & 15 year olds may work in the following category: "7. MAINTENANCE of GROUNDS, but not including use of power-driven mowers or cutters."

14 & 15 year olds may NOT work in any occupation declared "hazardous".

Quote: 

"The FLSA provides a minimum age of 18 years for any nonagricultural occupations which the Secretary of Labor “shall find and by order declare” to be particularly hazardous for 16- and 17-year-old persons, or detrimental to their health and well-being. This minimum age applies even when the minor is employed by the parent or person standing in place of the parent."

While "treework" is not specifically listed, lumbering and sawmill operations are. I'll bet that a motivated individual could easily interpret the restrictions to include running a chipper.

Myself: I would NEVER put a kid that age anywhere near a tree crew. I have already buried one employee, and he had a great deal of experience. There will be plenty of opportunities available for making my kids do hard work with out killing them [literally !].


----------



## Scots Climber (Jul 31, 2008)

Good on ya mate.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Jul 31, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> PPE, chipper use and child labor are 3 different problems.
> 
> It was not too long ago that we had an adult sucked into a chipper because he did not properly respect the machine. Kids are constitutionally incapable of knowing cause an effect.
> 
> ...



John, what are you considering illegal child labor?

I grew up on a farm and contributed from age 5 on till about 27.

But now, I'm curious, are you suggesting that I cannot or should not take my 10 year old to help where he can with a job because it's arboriculture, and not agriculture?


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Jul 31, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I grew up never knowing a tractor had brakes that worked. Fortunately, the spinning drum and the friction pad on the hand-lever clutch usually stopped it. I did all that stuff dangerous stuff, too.
> 
> Nowadays, we are afraid to admit on this forum that we might occasionally work without all our PPE, and we are more than ready to condemn others that post pictures that show anything less than perfect procedures for tree work.
> 
> ...



Farming is no less hazardous, really, all things considered. There is plenty of potential for killer and injurious mishaps. I should know, I farmed from age 5 on to age 27.

Mostly, it comes down to common sense, I don't think my son ought to be banned from a jobsite, but certainly from certain aspects. (Just as I was from certain farming activities per my age.) He observes mostly, and lends a hand with the safest of clean up. He wears all required PPE no matter where or what he is doing.

He asks good questions and studies materials that I have. He'll have a solid understanding and years of rec climbing in before he ever really gets involved in any fulltime capacity.

I'd rather he get the exposure now and gradually so that I don't have to bury him clueless at 18.

He reads quite a bit over my shoulder and takes note of the injury and fatality forum.

And still sees arboriculture for what it is. How can I deny him?

I wouldn't even consider him employed, but rather on a series of hands on job shadow field trips.


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Aug 1, 2008)

I started driving tractors while my dad fed out to stock when I was 4. Started using them on steep country at 12. Used disc grinders and welded when I was 10, rode dirtbikes from 4, had a rifle at 9. 

Im not against kids working or helping out, im against parents not insuring the kids were as safe as they could be while doing dangerous things. No PPE is simply abuse. What chance will they have in school if they cant hear well?


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 1, 2008)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I've got my 10 year old in training on side jobs with all the PPE. He wears it like a badge.
> 
> He won't be feeding any chippers any time soon though. There is plenty else for him to do and master first.
> 
> ...



Good post and my thought as well and you can bet my grandson
will be helping paw paw when he gets old enough as he tries now at five!
I have let him play help load a few sticks into wheel borrow etc. I would
bet he is probably the youngest one to ever work a grapple truck he released a log at four! He loved that I would get it clear of the truck and show him which handle to push and open the jaws and his eyes would light up. If someone turns me in for that oh well what come around goes around! I would not turn you in might dust yer britches or talk to you but calling the law usually just makes matters worse. I would do something to help though and if you thought you were then thats ok, it just should be more concern instead of how do I make life hard for this father! I seriously doubt it was someone else's kids but the law would be in order in that case.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 1, 2008)

Bigus Termitius said:


> John, what are you considering illegal child labor?
> 
> I grew up on a farm and contributed from age 5 on till about 27.
> 
> But now, I'm curious, are you suggesting that I cannot or should not take my 10 year old to help where he can with a job because it's arboriculture, and not agriculture?



I think there should be some allowances for family companies, but only when there is heavy supervision. Daddy in the bucket does not count, IM(ns)HO.

If Mom were on the ground running the show, I'd shake my head and walk on. I have several clients that work their kids on the ground, one has a very mature and trustworth 16 y/o who has put in many days this past summer, and has put in odd hours all the past 5 years I've worked with his Dad. This exemplifies the old American Work Ethic

Kids running a chipper w/o full supervision, w/o even some cheap safety glasses? What is there to defend here?

The law has to be written for the lowest common denominator though. Our anecdotal good parent may be the norm, but what do you do whit the yahoos out there who do not get it?


----------



## Bermie (Aug 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn;1095501]I think there should be some allowances for family companies, but only when there is heavy supervision. Daddy in the bucket does not count, IM(ns)HO....

Kids running a chipper w/o full supervision, w/o even some cheap safety glasses? What is there to defend here?



I agree here!
If there were another adult on the ground with the kids with no ppe, on their own worksite, perhaps a word aside might have been a first course of action...
But hey, a commercial job, no supervision or ppe for 12 years and UNDER!!!!:censored: 
Running a chipper, no ppe, I mean :censored: that is so irresponsible its not funny.


----------



## CLEARVIEW TREE (Aug 2, 2008)

Well, there is a possibility that they could've been of age. My helper has been asked a few times if he's old enough to work. He's just a small frame 18 yr old kid ya know. But, i'll tell ya what, his dad is a preacher, he doesn't even have a tv much less any kind of sega, play station, etc. His parents gave he and his sister a great upbringing, and the guy is extremely reliable and timely! So really when most kids are hangin with thugs, smokin pot, and cigs, and tryin to look cool, sounds like the kids you saw were out earnin their keep and probably were good kids as well,ppe or not.


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok I am not condoning no ppe or child endangerment it is just
the turning in of someone, nib nosing, chicken chitting around.
I would have taken action yes, I would have had a man to man
with this individual and went from there. I once had a sob foreman
loved to write you up for stupid chit like one ear plug falling out etc,
he eventually got a sandwich and I got fired but it was all good.
I went to work for the competition and a better leader. If it is
truly concern rather than control issues, then ok but concern
can be combined with commonsense and courage to speak
first and then decide the correct action based off response.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 2, 2008)

IMO it took courage to make the call vs just walking away and saying it's not my problem.

It's a small town, people have an idea how suggestions will be taken, not to mention physical reactions people have today....

If the kids are old enough the authorities will determine so, that's their job.

It's a small town of light industry and farm families, he would probably get off with a warning anyways. It's not like CPS was called. If the cop thought it was necessary, well that is his job. 

If kids are acting up, well I can see stepping in and asking a parent to take control. If the parents are behaving w/o a clue...well I'm repeating myself.

Once again Pete, good for you.


----------



## OLD CHIPMONK (Aug 2, 2008)

My brother & I started helping our Dad at age 8 & 10. Dragged limbs to the pick-up so he could load them ! It was just our way of spening time with Dad ! I'm still in the business with my son 56 years later. Thanks Dad !


----------



## I can do it (Aug 7, 2008)

I took my two kids out with me today to work. I have a boy and girl 11 and 12. I was pole clipping birch trees and installing some light cable. They were dragging brush to the chipper while I was up the tree. My son was feeding the branches onto the chipper as I fed them in. I don't see a problem taking your kids to work. When I get into bigger work I make the little guy put a hard hat on and I watch him like hawk. I grew around tree work going to work with my dad before I started school, learned to fuel up saws and tie things on. By the time I was about 7 I was tearing saws apart and sharpening them.

I think it's good to get them out there and let them see where the money comes from and how hard you have to work for it.


----------



## tatra805 (Aug 7, 2008)

reading the original post again i only wonder... why this customer did not talk with his neighbour himself and had to call in someone else..

and for that someone else that came, how difficult was it to walk up to the guy and talk to him??????????


Mind your own business is one side... nobody will tell me how i have to do something on my property also.

At the other hand if some idiot wants to feed his children to a chipper on my property he will be out in no time. 

On top of that chippers: my hand was pulled into ours 1 time and it was only because the engine stalled just in time that i am typing now with both hands. A branch catched between my glove and hand pulled me in... i will never allow anybody to work the chipper when wearing gloves. 

Who to judge? what is right? maybe the dad in the bucket could have told you something new.

I was raised by the saying: you cannot appreciate a bobcat if you never worked a shovel,...HARD. and i dont regret it 1 moment. So yes my children will also help out, be instructed and get hurt and learn


----------

