# Using Stihl Ultra, but dirty piston/exhausts?



## altair (Aug 9, 2015)

Hi all, have a 661, MS440 and Shinny 352.

I use Stihl Ultra green at 40:1 mixed with 95 or 98 octane fresh each day I cut. Saws 4 stroke slightly at WOT then clean up instantly in the cut.

Looked at the exhaust port of the 352 and it was caked black. Also the top of the piston is totally black and slightly "greasy" like tar.

So looked at the 661 and its the same? The MS440 is pretty much there too.

the saws get mostly full throttle cutting, so get pretty hot. I'm concerned this buildup could cause trouble in time. At $2700, I want the 661 to last me for years yet. I'm pedantic with cleaning air filters and using fresh mix. the Stihl Ultra here is $30/litre.

Any ideas? I used the Stihl Ultra for the warranty, used to use mainly Echo powerblend. Is this a trait of the Stihl ultra oil, or am I worrying about nothing? 

Cheers all.


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## Philip Wheelock (Aug 9, 2015)

Stihl Ultra 50:1 w/93 octane E10 - piston tops on my saws are also black. (MS440, MS261, MS260) If I see a failure in the future, I'll reevaluate.


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## scallywag (Aug 9, 2015)

I've posted these pics on AS before showing the results of using Motul 800 in my Stihl 084 @25:1.


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 9, 2015)

scallywag said:


> I've posted these pics on AS before showing the results of using Motul 800 in my Stihl 084 @25:1.
> 
> View attachment 440082
> 
> ...


I'm running it at 32:1 and thought perhaps I needed to richen up the H but it's just some clean burning stuff. Plenty of residual oil on the skirt and cylinder walls.
Fed my 066 a hot suppah yesterday and pulled the muff cover for piece of mind. Looked just like your 084.


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## sunfish (Aug 9, 2015)

I used Ultra for years and yes it leaves a lot of crud behind.


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## HarleyT (Aug 9, 2015)

If you are getting soot and residue and worrying about it, why not start mixing it to the 50:1 ratio that it is
supposed to be?


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## sunfish (Aug 9, 2015)

This could turn into a 'Ultra Oil Thread'...


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 9, 2015)

HarleyT said:


> If you are getting soot and residue and worrying about it, why not start mixing it to the 50:1 ratio that it is
> supposed to be?


Have you ever torn into the bottom end of a saw that has lived it's life on 50:1?


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## NWCoaster (Aug 9, 2015)

Awesome, another oil thread!!!!


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## HarleyT (Aug 9, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Have you ever torn into the bottom end of a saw that has lived it's life on 50:1?


Why yes.....


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## Philip Wheelock (Aug 9, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Have you ever torn into the bottom end of a saw that has lived it's life on 50:1?


Haven't had to yet...


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## altair (Aug 9, 2015)

I'm not interested in 40 vs 50:1. I run 40:1 and that will never change. What my query was, it its normal for Ultra to leave a black oily deposit.
Sounds like it could be, seems a bit strange. Maybe its harmless enough..but since I've seen the pics of the 084 above, think I might just try some of that...
Thanks guys.


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## Philip Wheelock (Aug 9, 2015)

altair said:


> ...What my query was, it its normal for Ultra to leave a black oily deposit...


From my experience with 4 saws over five years, I'd say yes. Maybe not oily, but definitely black stuff.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 9, 2015)

I'll just save you all the time and heartache. Time to switch to Mobil 2T. Actually, since you can probably just go to the store and buy some, it doesn't have that magic "unobtanium" thing it has going for it here. Never mind.


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## sunfish (Aug 9, 2015)

altair said:


> I'm not interested in 40 vs 50:1. I run 40:1 and that will never change. What my query was, it its normal for Ultra to leave a black oily deposit.
> Sounds like it could be, seems a bit strange. Maybe its harmless enough..but since I've seen the pics of the 084 above, think I might just try some of that...
> Thanks guys.


Ultra is designed to be run at 50:1, otherwise leaves too much crud behind. I stopped using it 4 years ago.


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## Deets066 (Aug 9, 2015)




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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 9, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> View attachment 440122


Bout time someone agrees with me


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## Deets066 (Aug 9, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Bout time someone agrees with me


I like it at 32:1 also, I see no reason to go back to ultra at 50:1


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## Chainsaw Jim (Aug 9, 2015)

Find an "FD" rated oil and you'll be happy. Note that Stihl doesn't make oil with that high of grade. Their rating is "FB".
Most dealers out there except Stihl dealers will likely tell you that Stihl oil is garbage and leave excess carbon. I don't really hear much about anyone giving bad reviews for other brands.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 9, 2015)

HarleyT said:


> If you are getting soot and residue and worrying about it, why not start mixing it to the 50:1 ratio that it is
> supposed to be?




Exactly.


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 9, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I like it at 32:1 also, I see no reason to go back to ultra at 50:1


Zactly!!
And this way, I know my bearings are happy.

Both 10mm 044's.
One on right was run on MOTUL 800 2T @ 32:1 for at least 7-8 gallons with VP.
One on left @ 40:1 with pump gas for about 3-4 gallons


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 9, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Have you ever torn into the bottom end of a saw that has lived it's life on 50:1?



Yes, dozens a month and I've only had 2 saws come in in the last year with a bad bottom end. One was a big end bearing, the other a crank bearing, and both were milling saws.

Perhaps it may surprise the "nonners" but saw motors are pretty tough. If it takes special snake oils and magic elixirs to keep it running, it's not a saw I'd count on.
You can have your favorite "snake oil", doesn't bother me, but don't be pretentious when others aren't using it.

Edit: My comments aren't an "attack" on anyone, just my general opinion.


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## bwalker (Aug 9, 2015)

I am not supprised at the sketchy results with ultra.


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## bwalker (Aug 9, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Zactly!!
> And this way, I know my bearings are happy.
> 
> Both 10mm 044's.
> ...


The only thing your pic tells me is that you are tuned pig rich. A piston should not look like that if properly tuned.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Aug 9, 2015)

I mentioned the quality of shindaiwa red armor in another oil ratio thread and got a few giggles. But actually it was the older, more knowledge Husqvarna dealers in my area who told me about the stuff. They swear by it. It doesn't seem to scorch at all.


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## bwalker (Aug 9, 2015)

Chainsaw Jim said:


> I mentioned the quality of shindaiwa red armor in another oil ratio thread and got a few giggles. But actually it was the older, more knowledge Husqvarna dealers in my area who told me about the stuff. They swear by it. It doesn't seem to scorch at all.


I'd like to try it, but there is no local source.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Aug 9, 2015)

bwalker said:


> I'd like to try it, but there is no local source.



It's actually echo oil. Any echo dealer has it. And the echo oil is the same stuff, but different color.


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## bwalker (Aug 9, 2015)

No echo or shin dealer up here.


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## Deets066 (Aug 9, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Yes, dozens a month and I've only had 2 saws come in in the last year with a bad bottom end. One was a big end bearing, the other a crank bearing, and both were milling saws.
> 
> Perhaps it may surprise the "nonners" but saw motors are pretty tough. If it takes special snake oils and magic elixirs to keep it running, it's not a saw I'd count on.
> You can have your favorite "snake oil", doesn't bother me, but don't be pretentious when others aren't using it.
> ...


I don't see anyone being "pretentious" just stating which oil we've had good luck with. It burns clean and seems to make good power, so call it snake oil or whatever you want. I will continue to recommend it to anyone who asks


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## scallywag (Aug 9, 2015)

800 will also cure blindness!........But only if taken @ 25:1.


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## Deets066 (Aug 9, 2015)

scallywag said:


> 800 will also cure blindness!........But only if taken @ 25:1.


I haven't run any oil at 25:1 yet, but it does say in any stihl manual to run stihl oil at 50:1 and any other brand oil at 25:1.


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## fordf150 (Aug 9, 2015)

Chainsaw Jim said:


> It's actually echo oil. Any echo dealer has it. And the echo oil is the same stuff, but different color.


Red armor and power blend are vastly different oils. Power blend is ok...a bit dirty for my taste though.it is synthetic blend while the red armor is full synthetic. Both are rated FD. Red armor is great oil but expensive. 

The Stihl Orange bottle is some of the dirtiest oil I have encountered and the ultra doesn't seem to be much better. 

No snake oil for me....Dolmar synthetic or amsoil @ 40:1 for stock or ported saws


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 9, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The only thing your pic tells me is that you are tuned pig rich. A piston should not look like that if properly tuned.



Are you phuckin serious Holmes?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 9, 2015)

stihl ultra = cruddy plugs,pistons,exhaust ports smells like hot burning soap mixing with burning plastic and cost more than everything else.
sorry to say i burn this i think it burns cleaner than ultra has very little smell or smoke.
and it is only 8$ per quart.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 9, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I don't see anyone being "pretentious" just stating which oil we've had good luck with. It burns clean and seems to make good power, so call it snake oil or whatever you want. I will continue to recommend it to anyone who asks




My post wasn't directed toward anyone in particular, which is why I made the edit comment earlier today to clarify that.

I mentioned the site to a customer the other day and they said "That's the site where everyone polishes saws they rarely use and argue about mix oil, isn't it?"

I had to laugh as it wasn't too far from the truth.

I earn a living with my equipment, I buy whatever is available locally and works fine, which happens to be Stihl Ultra. None of my saws are gummed up with dirty/greasy oil. Why would Stihl sell oil that was "junk"? They believe in it enough to extend the warranty on a new saw even.

I have seen that greasy, gummy, oil leaking out the muffler, plugged screen, etc on some saws that came in for work. 
It's normally from the customer putting too much oil in the mix.


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## SEAM (Aug 9, 2015)

A lot of the 2-stroke bike oils are designed to be run in water-cooled engines and/or engines that do not rev very high, e.g. in an engine that does not have to handle excessive heat in a very restricted space...
No residue means all of the oil gets burned (oil burns more easily or engine runs hotter) - not really ideal for air-cooled 2-strokes...

I don't mind some minor deposits as they can be scraped off. Never had an engine seize on me so far...


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 10, 2015)

nothing wrong with excess oil in the muffler, extra rust protection in my book.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Aug 10, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Red armor and power blend are vastly different oils. Power blend is ok...a bit dirty for my taste though.it is synthetic blend while the red armor is full synthetic. Both are rated FD. Red armor is great oil but expensive.
> 
> The Stihl Orange bottle is some of the dirtiest oil I have encountered and the ultra doesn't seem to be much better.
> 
> No snake oil for me....Dolmar synthetic or amsoil @ 40:1 for stock or ported saws



I know they're not the exact same ingredients. I was saying they're owned by the same corporation. An echo dealer I know was telling me this, but didn't give any specifics beyond the blanket term "they're the same thing". I know he was basically implying the rating and that they are owned by the same corporation.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 10, 2015)

red armor is good stuff ester based very clean burning not much smell and dyes fuel a nice red color so it is easy to tell if it is mixed.


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## cedarshark (Aug 10, 2015)

6 months ago I switched from Ultra(50 to 1) to Amsoil (42 to 1) and I like it better. Less deposits and smells better. I tend not to worry as much to be slightly on the lean side. That Motul sure does leave a clean plug and muffler in the first couple pics. Hard to ignore those kind of results.


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## Nitroman (Aug 10, 2015)

scallywag said:


> I've posted these pics on AS before showing the results of using Motul 800 in my Stihl 084 @25:1.
> 
> View attachment 440082
> 
> ...





ValleyFirewood said:


> Exactly.



These guys are in New Zealand, their gas may be formulated differently so it burns differently. Motul looks to be the go to oil then.


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## Bwildered (Aug 10, 2015)

HarleyT said:


> If you are getting soot and residue and worrying about it, why not start mixing it to the 50:1 ratio that it is
> supposed to be?


Now that would be putting some common sense to good use.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Aug 10, 2015)

altair said:


> Hi all, have a 661, MS440 and Shinny 352.
> 
> I use Stihl Ultra green at 40:1 mixed with 95 or 98 octane fresh each day I cut. Saws 4 stroke slightly at WOT then clean up instantly in the cut.
> 
> ...


Try this stuff, it seems to do the trick
http://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/products/motorcycle-and-scooters/racing-oils/powe-1-tts.html
The extended warranty only applies when buying the stihl ultra hp oil at the time of purchase, after that you can run what ever oil you want in it within recommended ratios.
Thansk


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## Cantdog (Aug 10, 2015)

I hate to get involved in these banter sessions...and anyone who has ever read any of my posts knows I'm not a Stihl flag waver. I use Stihl Ultra in every saw, 4 mix wacker I have some are tuned pretty steep......I have never had any build up of any kind on the pistons or ports....case in point....Jonsered 630 Super II...ported ran for two years...sold a guy...he hammers it...commercial firewood and brings it I once a year to be tuned/fixed...what ever it needs...three years running.....I pulled the cyl to check on things last year...clean as a whistle...could read all the markings on the piston...ex port alum colored... How can this be and you all are showing pics of piston tops and cyl that looked like they was run on outboard oil....

I know why and half of you won't believe it the other half won't believe it either......BS dismissed it as well so we know I have faulty information.....

I run nothing but regular gas in all my saws......I also run two fairly high performance Ducati motorcycles......and have spent some time at BCM in Laconia NH.....they are one of the foremost Ducati builders in the US......the shop guys always laugh when they tear down an ailing 4V Duc motor......"Oh yeah...another high test guy" they say.....what does that tell you?? They told me that hi test gas has many more additives that leave behind much more carbon deposits than regular an I should run regular on the street and race fuel on the track.......They also said I would not feel the difference in performance on the street......and I have found that true too. What a let down after years of running nothing in my bikes but high test......

Armed with this knowledge from a very reputable source......I have taken the advice from the race techs to heart and have never has a fouled plug or any kind of carbon buildup running Stihl ultra and regular gas at 50:1....some of my saws tune in the 15's.....never lost a bearing or scored a cly......in ten years or so.....

I know this runs against the grain on here......you can take it or leave it......but I can tell you for sure the saws I use and service do not have carbon issues or bearing/ P&C failures running regular gas and Stihl ultra @ 50:1......your results may vary....but I doubt it.....

This isn't a rant for Stihl Ultra...I' m sure there are other full synth oils that work as well.....just I'm a little weird about oils.....I like to always use the same oil, if it's good......I can buy Ultra local rather cheep and since my 4 mix motors requires it..that's what I use........but think for a moment about the fuel you're using before you turn up the flame.....


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## AKDoug (Aug 10, 2015)

Stihl dealer here.. so I'm one of those scumbags pushing substandard oil... This is off my personal MS441CM ported by TreeMonkey. Run at 40:1 on every tank other than the one Scott put through it when he did the work. It's bucked 60 cords so far since I got it back and this is what the exhaust port looks like. Carbon build up is not always the oil as Cantdog has said above. Pretty tough to say if N.Z. fuel or even the Stihl oil is the same spec is what we get in the U.S. I crack open multiple saws daily and I see zero build up issues running Stihl Ultra.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 10, 2015)

Cantdog said:


> I hate to get involved in these banter sessions...and anyone who has ever read any of my posts knows I'm not a Stihl flag waver. I use Stihl Ultra in every saw, 4 mix wacker I have some are tuned pretty steep......I have never had any build up of any kind on the pistons or ports....case in point....Jonsered 630 Super II...ported ran for two years...sold a guy...he hammers it...commercial firewood and brings it I once a year to be tuned/fixed...what ever it needs...three years running.....I pulled the cyl to check on things last year...clean as a whistle...could read all the markings on the piston...ex port alum colored... How can this be and you all are showing pics of piston tops and cyl that looked like they was run on outboard oil....
> 
> I know why and half of you won't believe it the other half won't believe it either......BS dismissed it as well so we know I have faulty information.....
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but this post violates the "larger the number, the better it is" rule. My saws have such finicky, high-strung motors, if I run anything under 116 octane mixed with whatever the current favorite bike racing ester oil is, I am sure they will explode. Regular gas? That's almost as crazy as not using carnauba wax with a super soft chamois to gently clean and polish u'r saw after every use.


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

Cantdog said:


> I hate to get involved in these banter sessions...and anyone who has ever read any of my posts knows I'm not a Stihl flag waver. I use Stihl Ultra in every saw, 4 mix wacker I have some are tuned pretty steep......I have never had any build up of any kind on the pistons or ports....case in point....Jonsered 630 Super II...ported ran for two years...sold a guy...he hammers it...commercial firewood and brings it I once a year to be tuned/fixed...what ever it needs...three years running.....I pulled the cyl to check on things last year...clean as a whistle...could read all the markings on the piston...ex port alum colored... How can this be and you all are showing pics of piston tops and cyl that looked like they was run on outboard oil....
> 
> I know why and half of you won't believe it the other half won't believe it either......BS dismissed it as well so we know I have faulty information.....
> 
> ...


Tells me they are idiots for blaming problems in premium gas...for starters.


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Stihl dealer here.. so I'm one of those scumbags pushing substandard oil... This is off my personal MS441CM ported by TreeMonkey. Run at 40:1 on every tank other than the one Scott put through it when he did the work. It's bucked 60 cords so far since I got it back and this is what the exhaust port looks like. Carbon build up is not always the oil as Cantdog has said above. Pretty tough to say if N.Z. fuel or even the Stihl oil is the same spec is what we get in the U.S. I crack open multiple saws daily and I see zero build up issues running Stihl Ultra.
> 
> 
> View attachment 440423


What's the piston crown look like?


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Now that would be putting some common sense to good use.
> Thansk


Residue isnt always or even often caused by oil ratio..


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Are you phuckin serious Holmes?


Dead serious. No two stroke piston should have bare metal like that unless it's new. A completley washed piston like that means one thing...overly rich.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 10, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Tells me they are idiots for blaming problems in premium gas...for starters.


Idk, running a gas which won't completely burn in the application u'r using it for might cause more harm than good


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

SEAM said:


> A lot of the 2-stroke bike oils are designed to be run in water-cooled engines and/or engines that do not rev very high, e.g. in an engine that does not have to handle excessive heat in a very restricted space...
> No residue means all of the oil gets burned (oil burns more easily or engine runs hotter) - not really ideal for air-cooled 2-strokes...
> 
> I don't mind some minor deposits as they can be scraped off. Never had an engine seize on me so far...


Most bike oils are formulated just like aircooled oils. Partly because despite liquid cooling they make much more hp per cc than a saw.


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Idk, running a gas which won't completely burn in the application u'r using it for might cause more harm than good


Why would you assume premium won't completley burn? Octane is simply a measure of a fuels resistance to detonation or abnormal combustion, not it's resistance to combustion.


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## AKDoug (Aug 10, 2015)

bwalker said:


> What's the piston crown look like?


I'm not pulling it down further to supply a photo for a stupid oil thread, so take my word that it has a little bit of carbon on top with a nice wash near the transfers. Just like a good two stroke piston should.


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> I'm not pulling it down further to supply a photo for a stupid oil thread, so take my word that it has a little bit of carbon on top with a nice wash near the transfers. Just like a good two stroke piston should.


Didn't ask for one.. percentage wise how much of the piston is covered in carbon?
Exhaust port looks good, but doesn't always tell the whole story.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 10, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Why would you assume premium won't completley burn? Octane is simply a measure of a fuels resistance to detonation or abnormal combustion, not it's resistance to combustion.


I don't know for sure. I think high octanes resistance to abnormal detonation will cause more of it to leave I burned thru the exhaust.


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I don't know for sure. I think high octanes resistance to abnormal detonation will cause more of it to leave I burned thru the exhaust.


I know for sure. It doesnt. What does affect the amount of unburnt fuel in the exhaust is tuning and the the distallation curve of the fuel. These curves are set by the EPA in most areas as unburnt HC are a problem. As such all motor gas in a given season in a given area have simular curves.


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## Cantdog (Aug 10, 2015)

HaHaHa........the followers of the grain.....think.....who might know better about fuels and how they may react in combustion......folks who build 4V motors that turn nearly as fast as most saws, run and win on the greatest tracks in the country and each motor costs as much as a half dozen Stihl 090s in mint condition...with original stickers......or....you.....more is not always better.......I was capable of learning from others who knew more than I.....I used to be a high test guy too.....but....carry on as you may.....and yes Doug...that's about the way the 630 I spoke of earlier looked.....with perhaps a bit more time on it......but I don't think at the times stated it makes much difference how much time there is on the saw......still gonna look the same....run and tuned properly ....


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

Cantdog said:


> HaHaHa........the followers of the grain.....think.....who might know better about fuels and how they may react in combustion......folks who build 4V motors that turn nearly as fast as most saws, run and win on the greatest tracks in the country and each motor costs as much as a half dozen Stihl 090s in mint condition...with original stickers......or....you.....more is not always better.......I was capable of learning from others who knew more than I.....I used to be a high test guy too.....but....carry on as you may.....and yes Doug...that's about the way the 630 I spoke of earlier looked.....with perhaps a bit more time on it......but I don't think at the times stated it makes much difference how much time there is on the saw......still gonna look the same....run and tuned properly ....


Believe what you want, but your duck wrench buds are dead wrong.


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## Cantdog (Aug 10, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Believe what you want, but your duck wrench buds are dead wrong.



UmHumm........LOL!!


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## bwalker (Aug 10, 2015)

What I find funny is someone who has such nice bikes that also has very little knowledge of the fuel he puts in them..


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## cedarshark (Aug 10, 2015)

This oil thread went the same direction as all oil threads....downward spiral.


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## Bwildered (Aug 10, 2015)

There's always some dingaling that needs & has the urge to verbally split the fuel & oil atoms to microscopic indistinguishable parts to where they have no further meaning in everyday use anymore, but what fun entertainment it is!
Thansk


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## AKDoug (Aug 10, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Didn't ask for one.. percentage wise how much of the piston is covered in carbon?
> Exhaust port looks good, but doesn't always tell the whole story.


Probably 90%, maybe a little more. Small areas of wash near the transfers. Carbon layer is very thin.


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## wcorey (Aug 11, 2015)

bwalker said:


> What I find funny is someone who has such nice bikes that also has very little knowledge of the fuel he puts in them..



Sorry, you may know your 2t stuff but you're clueless and way out of your depth with this particular statement...

Cantdog is spot on IMO...
I'm very familiar with the shop and more significantly the individual he refers to, Bruce Meyers. BCM is no longer there btw, Bruce sold the shop and went to work consulting for Ducati's factory race programs. He is/was internationally regarded as one of a very small handful of the top Ducati tuners on the planet. I was doing work for him making one off machined and carbon fiber parts and (somewhat pertinent to this discussion), programing software/firmware for the fuel injection and advance curves on aftermarket eproms for the injected Ducati's of the time. I saw a lot of r&d, porting and dyno time on heavily modded street and race bikes.

Bruce would peek down the intake on a street 4v motor and point out the thick dome of carbon buildup on the back of the valves, "You've been running 'premium' I see. Didn't we have this discussion on your last visit...?" The owner would sheepishly fess up and swear not to do it anymore, I saw this multiple times, first hand.

Maybe it's a peculiarity particular to that motor and may or may not apply directly here but certainly can't be completely dismissed either.
My own 4v Ducati 996 is running at 13.5 to 1 comp and has 25k hard miles running 'regular' 87 octane with no issues, run it in most of my saws too, including the ported ones.
The exception for me is that I put 100ll in saws I don't plan to run very often as it seems to be very stable over extended periods and is way cheaper than the canned fuels. Doesn't have all the additives that automotive 'premium' fuels have so I'd assume wouldn't have the potential issue we're discussing here, I don't run enough of it to say from direct experience though.

I'm thoroughly convinced from my own experience 'premium' fuel in saws is at best a waste and is, as suspected, even potentially harmful. I'm not going to switch over just to find out either.
Coincidentally I'm currently about 3/4 way through a gallon of stihl ultra that I was given by someone who swore it was responsible for doing in the cooked ms460 I was buying from him. I have to wonder what gas he was running...

So far no excessive carbon buildup from it that I've noticed (I mix @ 40:1, somtimes 32:1 for milling), bet I've run it in at least two dozen different saws...


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## Justsaws (Aug 11, 2015)

Are the motorcycles 2 cycle?


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## SEAM (Aug 11, 2015)

The premium vs. regular is not a good vs. bad fuel issue. Premium gas has a narrower range for ignition under higher compression to suppress knocking in 4-stroke engines. I used to drive an old Japanese sports car that required high-octane (premium) gas because of its higher compression ratio - using or mixing in regular gas would cause the engine to idle on when the ignition was turned off. Most modern cars will run nicely on regular gasoline.
2-stroke engines do not require high-octane fuel as there is no knocking and no high compression. Premium gas might even have a negative effect on the performance of 2-stroke engines, but I cannot say for sure as I have never used premium in 2-strokes (waste of money in my opinion).

Some reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating


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## porsche965 (Aug 11, 2015)

Tried running octane less than 91 in my Benz and it took the knock sensors out first tank to the tune of $650. Won't do that again.

Around here non-ethanol is what it is at 90 or 91 octane. I don't get a choice, just glad to test every 25 gallons to make sure.

Add my witches brew of blended two stroke oils and rock and roll. Been doing it this way because I'm not supposed to for years in stock and ported saws. Great power and no failures so far.


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 11, 2015)

The fuel that I use is pump gas premium, I use it because I notice far less ash build up regardless of what brand of oil I use. This applies to 2 cycle handheld equipment, non modified ranging from cultivators to multipurpose saws.

I purchase it from a very busy newish gas station that sells a fair bit of premium fuel. I cannot say that I notice any difference in performance or power just leaves less mess.

Curious as to the person's advice regarding pump gas being specifically applied to 2cycle or 4 cycle engines.

Ultra still smells horrible and is priced like a Hewlitt Packard ink cartridge so it is a non starter.


----------



## wcorey (Aug 11, 2015)

Justsaws said:


> Are the motorcycles 2 cycle?



No, 4 valve per cylinder 4t and fuel injected.

The point there is that it's not necessarily the 2t oil leaving the residue/deposits or anything to do with octane other than the high octane 'premium' (street) gas tends to have more additives than than lower octane 'regular'. It's part of what you're paying extra for. 
It's those additives that are causing the buildup on the Ducati's intake valves and may be causing and/or contributing to the problem that is the subject of this thread.

The Ducati's have a specific issue with this due to the system of actuating the valves ('desmodromics') where a cam/rocker not only opens the valve but another also closes it. This eliminates the need for a closing spring and allows for very radical cam profiles. Carbon build up on the intake valves is undesirable in any motor as it impedes flow but on the desmodromic system can also cause serious damage as it can take up the closing cam/rocker clearance, stressing the valve and binding the cam to rocker.
Not good at 12k rpm...


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 11, 2015)

wcorey said:


> No, 4 valve per cylinder 4t and fuel injected.
> 
> The point there is that it's not necessarily the 2t oil leaving the residue/deposits or anything to do with octane other than the high octane 'premium' (street) gas tends to have more additives than than lower octane 'regular'. It's part of what you're paying extra for.
> It's those additives that are causing the buildup on the Ducati's intake valves and may be causing and/or contributing to the problem that is the subject of this thread.
> ...



Thanks, I do not know anything about motorcycles.
I am of the opinion that for 2 cycle handheld equipment the largest variable in ash build up that is not a typical tuning or operating issue is the age of the tank the fuel is stored in at the vendor. When I have used fuel from the older stations and or less busy stations I notice more or different ash build up, retuned or not. Simply going to the west side of Ohio can be worth a 1/4 turn or more on a milling saw even from a busy but old station. Going to Virginia was well over a 1/4 out on the 660 and a mess to boot.


----------



## Cantdog (Aug 11, 2015)

Another and perhaps more important thing about Ultra that has not been mentioned yet is how it came to be and why. Ultra was developed in response to problems with Stihl's regular synth or semi synth blended oil raising havoc with the 4 mix motors........it was not high enough in detergent......carbon built up on the tiny valve stems causing sticking......they are an "interference" motor so when the valve stuck open and the piston came up the motor would stop and not run again. Tom Hall spoke long about this as it cost more to rebuild the motors than to simply buy a new "short block "motor from Stihl and install the rest of the good bits on it. So Ultra was developed and designed to eliminate this problem using full synth oil base with much more detergent additives and a fuel stabilizer thrown in to boot. Couple that with the fact that any full synth oil, having nearly twice flash point in degrees F of regular oil....meaning that for the most part that Ultra doesn't burn....most of it does it's job of lubrication and then exits the exhaust not burnt......I fail to see how this would be able to leave behind large amounts of carbon......it is simply and specifically designed to not do this in a properly tuned motor running the specified fuel to oil ratio......So where is this build up of crap coming from?


----------



## CR888 (Aug 11, 2015)

l would NOT run hi octane premium in ANY of my 2t engines. Regular pump unleaded is better for ***.


----------



## scallywag (Aug 11, 2015)

CR888 said:


> l would NOT run hi octane premium in ANY of my 2t engines. Regular pump unleaded is better for ***.


 
I'm running all my saws on 98 octane, is there a verifiable reason not to?


----------



## weedkilla (Aug 11, 2015)

scallywag said:


> I'm running all my saws on 98 octane, is there a verifiable reason not to?


Nope. 

Apart from the ethanol blends in some of the cheapy servos any of the fuels available in Aus are fine.
Just don't compare Aussie fuel octane ratings to the ones used by these guys - USA and Aus measure octane differently.


----------



## scallywag (Aug 11, 2015)

We have only two fuel out lets within 1/2 hour drive, BP and Shell. The BP 98 is sub standard, to say the least compared to the Shell 98.


----------



## weedkilla (Aug 11, 2015)

scallywag said:


> We have only two fuel out lets within 1/2 hour drive, BP and Shell. The BP 98 is sub standard, to say the least compared to the Shell 98.


That's interesting- what made you think that?


----------



## scallywag (Aug 11, 2015)

I purchased all my fuel at this particular BP servo for over 20 years, before Caltex became involved with BP. I run 2 strokes, 4 strokes, 4, 6 and 8 cylinder vehicles and the difference is notable in driveability when using the Shell fuel, especially in one of our v6 engines.
As I said, at one time I used only BP products and IMO BP Visco 3000 was one of the best motor oils on the market in Oz.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 11, 2015)

wcorey said:


> Sorry, you may know your 2t stuff but you're clueless and way out of your depth with this particular statement...
> 
> Cantdog is spot on IMO...
> I'm very familiar with the shop and more significantly the individual he refers to, Bruce Meyers. BCM is no longer there btw, Bruce sold the shop and went to work consulting for Ducati's factory race programs. He is/was internationally regarded as one of a very small handful of the top Ducati tuners on the planet. I was doing work for him making one off machined and carbon fiber parts and (somewhat pertinent to this discussion), programing software/firmware for the fuel injection and advance curves on aftermarket eproms for the injected Ducati's of the time. I saw a lot of r&d, porting and dyno time on heavily modded street and race bikes.
> ...


I will say it again...the shop is wrong.
For starters additional detergents are added to premium fuel. IE Shell V power, Amoco Supreme, etc..
I have always ran premium in every two stroke Inhale owned and I have never had deposit issues.
Do some research before you take some grease monkeys crap as gospel.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 11, 2015)

Cantdog said:


> Another and perhaps more important thing about Ultra that has not been mentioned yet is how it came to be and why. Ultra was developed in response to problems with Stihl's regular synth or semi synth blended oil raising havoc with the 4 mix motors........it was not high enough in detergent......carbon built up on the tiny valve stems causing sticking......they are an "interference" motor so when the valve stuck open and the piston came up the motor would stop and not run again. Tom Hall spoke long about this as it cost more to rebuild the motors than to simply buy a new "short block "motor from Stihl and install the rest of the good bits on it. So Ultra was developed and designed to eliminate this problem using full synth oil base with much more detergent additives and a fuel stabilizer thrown in to boot. Couple that with the fact that any full synth oil, having nearly twice flash point in degrees F of regular oil....meaning that for the most part that Ultra doesn't burn....most of it does it's job of lubrication and then exits the exhaust not burnt......I fail to see how this would be able to leave behind large amounts of carbon......it is simply and specifically designed to not do this in a properly tuned motor running the specified fuel to oil ratio......So where is this build up of crap coming from?


Flash point has nothing to do with fire point. And blowing unburnt oil out of the exhaust would quickly plug up the exhaust port.
Sounds plausible as to how Ultra came to be. A bandaid for a poorly designed engine. Also makes sense they went to an ashless formulation given the four mix engine. Also makes sense we people see dirty results with ultra given the ashless formulation.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 11, 2015)

SEAM said:


> The premium vs. regular is not a good vs. bad fuel issue. Premium gas has a narrower range for ignition under higher compression to suppress knocking in 4-stroke engines. I used to drive an old Japanese sports car that required high-octane (premium) gas because of its higher compression ratio - using or mixing in regular gas would cause the engine to idle on when the ignition was turned off. Most modern cars will run nicely on regular gasoline.
> 2-stroke engines do not require high-octane fuel as there is no knocking and no high compression. Premium gas might even have a negative effect on the performance of 2-stroke engines, but I cannot say for sure as I have never used premium in 2-strokes (waste of money in my opinion).
> 
> Some reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating


That wiki article is garbage as it equates ignition with detonation. Detonation starts well after ignition. Octane is a fuels resistance to detonation, not ignition. Premium will ignite like any other fuel.


----------



## wcorey (Aug 11, 2015)

bwalker said:


> I will say it again...the shop is wrong.
> For starters additional detergents are added to premium fuel. IE Shell V power, Amoco Supreme, etc..
> I have always ran premium in every two stroke Inhale owned and I have never had deposit issues.
> Do some research before you take some grease monkeys crap as gospel.




I didn't say his opinion was applied specifically to the 2 stroke issue here, just that in my own opinion as well as others here it could be a similar situation.

As far as what I* did* say... I'll believe the experience of someone at the highest level in their field, as well as what I've seen with my own eyes, 
over some opinionated know-it-all type on an internet forum. 

Everyone can have an opinion and you have more than enough to go around. I'd say you need to do more research as well...


----------



## bwalker (Aug 11, 2015)

wcorey said:


> I didn't say his opinion was applied specifically to the 2 stroke issue here, just that in my own opinion as well as others here it could be a similar situation.
> 
> As far as what I* did* say... I'll believe the experience of someone at the highest level in their field, as well as what I've seen with my own eyes,
> over some opinionated know-it-all type on an internet forum.
> ...


I have no reason to believe that the guy doesnt have Ducs figured out. However, he is wrong on the fuel issue.
I have researched it exhaustively and it's not my oppinion, it's fact.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 11, 2015)

wcorey said:


> I didn't say his opinion was applied specifically to the 2 stroke issue here, just that in my own opinion as well as others here it could be a similar situation.
> 
> As far as what I* did* say... I'll believe the experience of someone at the highest level in their field, as well as what I've seen with my own eyes,
> over some opinionated know-it-all type on an internet forum.
> ...


X2


----------



## Bwildered (Aug 11, 2015)

bwalker said:


> I have no reason to believe that the guy doesnt have Ducs figured out. However, he is wrong on the fuel issue.
> I have researched it exhaustively and it's not my oppinion, it's fact.


would that be the garden variety internet research with the status of FIGJAM, or the more highly regarded & reliable university research for a degree, masters or phd? LOL


----------



## DSS (Aug 11, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Yes, dozens a month and I've only had 2 saws come in in the last year with a bad bottom end. One was a big end bearing, the other a crank bearing, and both were milling saws.
> 
> Perhaps it may surprise the "nonners" but saw motors are pretty tough. If it takes special snake oils and magic elixirs to keep it running, it's not a saw I'd count on.
> You can have your favorite "snake oil", doesn't bother me, but don't be pretentious when others aren't using it.
> ...


You take apart dozens of saws a month? Uh huh.

You told us you ran a saw for two years on straight gas, what the hell are you buying oil now for? Its just a fad.


----------



## SEAM (Aug 11, 2015)

bwalker said:


> That wiki article is garbage as it equates ignition with detonation. Detonation starts well after ignition. Octane is a fuels resistance to detonation, not ignition. Premium will ignite like any other fuel.



The problem for 4-strokes is not ignition vs. detonation but self-ignition vs. induced ignition. A real "detonation" cannot take place as there is too little space for supersonic expansion (my opinion).

The number of octane ratings offered at gas stations in the US is insane... in Japan it is "regular" and "high-octane" fuel besides diesel - no one states the octane numbers, and there are no fuels with alcohol in them over here yet.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 11, 2015)

DSS said:


> You take apart dozens of saws a month? Uh huh.
> 
> You told us you ran a saw for two years on straight gas, what the hell are you buying oil now for? Its just a fad.


----------



## DSS (Aug 11, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


>


Reported


----------



## bwalker (Aug 11, 2015)

SEAM said:


> The problem for 4-strokes is not ignition vs. detonation but self-ignition vs. induced ignition. A real "detonation" cannot take place as there is too little space for supersonic expansion (my opinion).
> 
> The number of octane ratings offered at gas stations in the US is insane... in Japan it is "regular" and "high-octane" fuel besides diesel - no one states the octane numbers, and there are no fuels with alcohol in them over here yet.



Detonation is an issue in all engines. The phenomenon you described is actually pre ignition, not detonation.
And real detonation can and does take place in all types of engines.


----------



## SEAM (Aug 11, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Detonation is an issue in all engines. The phenomenon you described is actually pre ignition, not detonation.
> And real detonation can and does take place in all types of engines.



I only wanted to point out that knocking is caused by self-ignition on 4-strokes when gasoline with a too low octane rating is used.
There is no knocking on 2-strokes regardless of octane rating - engine runs or doesn't...
The detonation issue is a matter of definition. I am German, and in that language detonation refers solely to explosives and not fuels. May take a while to include the term into my engine vocabulary


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2015)

If still mix is so great. Would you run it in your dirt bike ? Think about it ...


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 12, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> If still mix is so great. Would you run it in your dirt bike ? Think about it ...


Phuck that!!


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

SEAM said:


> I only wanted to point out that knocking is caused by self-ignition on 4-strokes when gasoline with a too low octane rating is used.
> There is no knocking on 2-strokes regardless of octane rating - engine runs or doesn't...
> The detonation issue is a matter of definition. I am German, and in that language detonation refers solely to explosives and not fuels. May take a while to include the term into my engine vocabulary


Knocking is typically preignition and it occurs in two strokes too. It's often called pinging.
Detonation can knock too, but often times you cant here it. I had a snowmobile engine detonate once. Even with EGT gauges I never felt nor observed anything till the piston was melted below the lower ring land.


----------



## Bwildered (Aug 12, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> If still mix is so great. Would you run it in your dirt bike ? Think about it ...


i don't own a 2t bike, but if i did i wouldn't have a problem with it.
thansk


----------



## Bwildered (Aug 12, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Knocking is typically preignition and it occurs in two strokes too. It's often called pinging.
> Detonation can knock too, but often times you cant here it. I had a snowmobile engine detonate once. Even with EGT gauges I never felt nor observed anything till the piston was melted below the lower ring land.


probably because you were running 16:1 mix & a lean tune, after all it wasn't pinging, knocking or giving signs to tell you it was going to melt.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> probably because you were running 16:1 mix & a lean tune, after all it wasn't pinging, knocking or giving signs to tell you it was going to melt.


Oil injection and not lean as verified by EGT.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> i don't own a 2t bike, but if i did i wouldn't have a problem with it.
> thansk


Not if you knew what the heck you were doing.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 12, 2015)

Bwalker, why are you so derogatory and hateful? I believe you'd argue with a wall or even a PhD on a particular topic if you had a differing preconceived idea.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 12, 2015)

Keyboard warriors are like that Brad


----------



## Hinerman (Aug 12, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Red armor and power blend are vastly different oils. Power blend is ok...a bit dirty for my taste though.it is synthetic blend while the red armor is full synthetic. Both are rated FD. Red armor is great oil but expensive.
> 
> The Stihl Orange bottle is some of the dirtiest oil I have encountered and the ultra doesn't seem to be much better.
> 
> No snake oil for me....Dolmar synthetic or amsoil @ 40:1 for stock or ported saws


 
Red Armor is a semi-synthetic blend. Not saying it is a bad oil, just not full synthetic. How do I know? I emailed Shindaiwa back in May and asked them. I can forward the email to you if you would like.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Bwalker, why are you so derogatory and hateful? I believe you'd argue with a wall or even a PhD on a particular topic if you had a differing preconceived idea.


Most of the preconceived ideas on this site are not based on any sort of reality. You prefer to keep it this way?


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

Hinerman said:


> Red Armor is a semi-synthetic blend. Not saying it is a bad oil, just not full synthetic. How do I know? I emailed Shindaiwa back in May and asked them. I can forward the email to you if you would like.


Full synthetic, partial synthetic, good oil is good oil.


----------



## SEAM (Aug 12, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Knocking is typically preignition and it occurs in two strokes too. It's often called pinging.
> Detonation can knock too, but often times you cant here it. I had a snowmobile engine detonate once. Even with EGT gauges I never felt nor observed anything till the piston was melted below the lower ring land.



2-strokes will detonate only when running too lean and not because they run on low-octane (regular) gasoline.
We are splitting hairs here... the topic being regular vs. premium. Regular is perfectly fine for stock 2-stroke chainsaw engines.


----------



## fordf150 (Aug 12, 2015)

Hinerman said:


> Red Armor is a semi-synthetic blend. Not saying it is a bad oil, just not full synthetic. How do I know? I emailed Shindaiwa back in May and asked them. I can forward the email to you if you would like.


i was told it was full synthetic. Its been 2 or 3 years since i had a bottle in my hand and if im not mistaken they dont give much information on the bottle or the literature. I stand corrected.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

SEAM said:


> 2-strokes will detonate only when running too lean and not because they run on low-octane (regular) gasoline.
> We are splitting hairs here... the topic being regular vs. premium. Regular is perfectly fine for stock 2-stroke chainsaw engines.


Two strokes will most certainly detonate on low octane fuel. I HAVE seen it, unfortunately.
Regular may be fine from on octane requirement standpoint. But when you are talking modded saws, milling, or ethanol doped standard fuel it really makes alot of sense to run premium.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 12, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Bwalker, why are you so derogatory and hateful? I believe you'd argue with a wall or even a PhD on a particular topic if you had a differing preconceived idea.





bwalker said:


> Most of the preconceived ideas on this site are not based on any sort of reality. You prefer to keep it this way?



So you believe this gives you the right to be derogatory, insulting, and disrespectfull ?


----------



## bwalker (Aug 12, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> So you believe this gives you the right to be derogatory, insulting, and disrespectfull ?


Only to bewildered...


----------



## AKDoug (Aug 12, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Two strokes will most certainly detonate on low octane fuel. I HAVE seen it, unfortunately.
> Regular may be fine from on octane requirement standpoint. But when you are talking modded saws, milling, or ethanol doped standard fuel it really makes alot of sense to run premium.


Absolutely correct. I took me twice and about $2000 to learn my lesson. Snowmobiles, not saws, but still two strokes.


----------



## Hinerman (Aug 12, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Full synthetic, partial synthetic, good oil is good oil.


 
I agree. Red Armor has a good rep and I bought some to try next. Lucas, another semi-synthetic, gets praise from it's users also.



fordf150 said:


> i was told it was full synthetic. Its been 2 or 3 years since i had a bottle in my hand and if im not mistaken they dont give much information on the bottle or the literature. I stand corrected.


 
I was told it was full synthetic also. But, you are right: No information on their website, nothing on the bottle, nothing on their handouts. I found it a strange to be honest, which is why I emailed them and asked. I still bought some and am going to try it.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 12, 2015)

https://m.motul.com/system/product_...Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420014


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2015)

I ran some of this today in the string trimmer at 50 to 1 ,my mobil2t was at home it's all i could find out in the junk cars out back .....I mixed it with some orange bottle stihl mix and got enough for a gallon .


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 12, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> https://m.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77816/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420014


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 12, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I ran some of this today in the string trimmer at 50 to 1 ,my mobil2t was at home it's all i could find out in the junk cars out back .....I mixed it with some orange bottle stihl mix and got enough for a gallon .
> View attachment 440823



Shush, that's the super secret A2ceo that only the cool people know about, black bottle no less, smooth.


----------



## DSS (Aug 12, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I ran some of this today in the string trimmer at 50 to 1 ,my mobil2t was at home it's all i could find out in the junk cars out back .....I mixed it with some orange bottle stihl mix and got enough for a gallon .
> View attachment 440823


I'm pretty sure your life, as well as your trimmer, is ruined.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2015)

DSS said:


> I'm pretty sure your life, as well as your trimmer, is ruined.


I am going to burn the whole gallon now just to see


----------



## fordf150 (Aug 12, 2015)

i have some old guys that are still running motor oil mixed at ??? in their saws. I say ???? because he just dumps part of a quart in a gallon and shakes it up. No measuring or anything. Another guy runs trans fluid when he runs out of 2T oil(this guy is my techs brother so he should know better but still does it). No blown up saws from them yet. we all might be over thinking this whole oil thing just a bit.


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 12, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I ran some of this today in the string trimmer at 50 to 1 ,my mobil2t was at home it's all i could find out in the junk cars out back .....I mixed it with some orange bottle stihl mix and got enough for a gallon .
> View attachment 440823



You are a Blender? Wow. How did it work?


----------



## HarleyT (Aug 12, 2015)

What ever happened to all of the Klotz and Amsoil nuts?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 12, 2015)

HarleyT said:


> What ever happened to all of the Klotz and Amsoil nuts?


We're still here[emoji39]


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 12, 2015)

What Amsoil is erbody runnin?

Used to run Techniplate in muh Rotax 583


----------



## fordf150 (Aug 12, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> What Amsoil is erbody runnin?
> 
> Used to run Techniplate in muh Rotax 583





Sabre @100:1 so far my ported 6100 still runs good. Will be for sale soon if somebody wants a fixer upper though


----------



## RAYINTOMBALL (Aug 12, 2015)

Another 7 page 120 replies oil thread. Unfriggin believeable.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 12, 2015)

HarleyT said:


> What ever happened to all of the Klotz and Amsoil nuts?


----------



## Bwildered (Aug 13, 2015)

Oil injection and not lean as verified by EGT.



bwalker said:


> Not if you knew what the heck you were doing.



Now that's a funny story! You blew up a 2t engine with a oil injection system which was delivering who knows what oil ratio, for a bloke that doesn't know what he was doing I used to use premix in oil injection 2t mc engines back when you weren't even born and have never melted a piston in any 2t mowers, bikes, carts, chainsaws, misters, cut off saws, tillers or brushcutters, in general use or racing, that I have owner or used, wore a few out though. LOL


----------



## bwalker (Aug 13, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Oil injection and not lean as verified by EGT.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's a funny story! You blew up a 2t engine with a oil injection system which was delivering who knows what oil ratio, for a bloke that doesn't know what he was doing I used to use premix in oil injection 2t mc engines back when you weren't even born and have never melted a piston in any 2t mowers, bikes, carts, chainsaws, misters, cut off saws, tillers or brushcutters, in general use or racing, that I have owner or used, wore a few out though. LOL


Thanks for proving my point. At no point in the above pile of crap is anything even remotely useful or accurate..


----------



## cedarshark (Aug 14, 2015)

RAYINTOMBALL said:


> Another 7 page 120 replies oil thread. Unfriggin believeable.



My oil will always be better than your oil until I find someone I trust that has a better oil. I bet its just as hot where you are...miserable here.


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

Another plug out of a saw runnin Motul 800


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

Looks good but getting close? From what saw?

I have some plugs like that  Love the edge.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Another plug out of a saw runnin Motul 800View attachment 441196


How's the piston and exhaust port look?


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

For chit and grins I'm running some 800 in my 562 right now. It's pretty dirty at 32:1 unless your in big hardwood. Does better at 40:1, but is still smoky if your doing a lot of limbiing or in small wood.
I like Maxima K2 better thus far.


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> For chit and grins I'm running some 800 in my 562 right now. It's pretty dirty at 32:1 unless your in big hardwood. Does better at 40:1, but is still smoky if your doing a lot of limbiing or in small wood.
> I like Maxima K2 better thus far.



Interesting.

What brings you to the conclusion of a "dirty condition?"

What would a 45:1 800 do ?


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> For chit and grins I'm running some 800 in my 562 right now. It's pretty dirty at 32:1 unless your in big hardwood. Does better at 40:1, but is still smoky if your doing a lot of limbiing or in small wood.
> I like Maxima K2 better thus far.


If you had an adjustable carb you could turn the H screw s little to the right and take care of the "smokiness"


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> How's the piston and exhaust port look?


They are black with carbon, exhaust port needs cleaned. But I bought this saw used and have run mostly stihl ultra through it until about a year ago or so, and maybe 6-8 tanks with Motul


----------



## catbuster (Aug 14, 2015)

I use Stihl Ultra. My crew's run about 200 gallons so far this year. No problems. I'll take it.


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

I'm not bashing ultra by any means, I have a lot of it and will use it if I run out of other. I just think there is better oil out there and would rather run it


----------



## catbuster (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I'm not bashing ultra by any means, I have a lot of it and will use it if I run out of other. I just think there is better oil out there and would rather run it



I agree. Amsoil Saber is the best. But if Stihl says use HP Ultra and premium fuel I use HP Ultra and premium gas. Plus, it's easier to just go grab some from a local dealership than trying to find some Amsoil, K2 or whatever oil. HP Ultra works. And works really well. All my gear is used for production.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2015)

Can anyone buy ultra cheaper than K2 or Klotz of some sort? I seen it $10 plus tax for 6 pack of 1 gallon size.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> For chit and grins I'm running some 800 in my 562 right now. It's pretty dirty at 32:1 unless your in big hardwood. Does better at 40:1, but is still smoky if your doing a lot of limbiing or in small wood.
> I like Maxima K2 better thus far.





porsche965 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> What brings you to the conclusion of a "dirty condition?"
> 
> What would a 45:1 800 do ?



When milling I can get any of them to burn pretty clean, even Super techniplate. Limbing and stuff like that it makes a black mess. 800 is better than Super but K2 and R50 are cleaner.


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Can anyone buy ultra cheaper than K2 or Klotz of some sort? I seen it $10 plus tax for 6 pack of 1 gallon size.



$56 a gallon here plus tax.


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## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> $56 a gallon here plus tax.


So it's more than R50 by the gallon.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2015)

$51 here


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## RAYINTOMBALL (Aug 14, 2015)

cedarshark said:


> My oil will always be better than your oil until I find someone I trust that has a better oil. I bet its just as hot where you are...miserable here.


Yep pretty toasty. 100s all week. Always wondered what ratio of whale blubber to Aviation fuel I should run in my poulan woodshark 1800.


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## fordf150 (Aug 14, 2015)

Sabre is $38 gallon. $10.40 a quart IIRC. Dolmar synthetic $1.25 1 gallon mix. $2.25 for 2.5 gallon mix


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## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

So why don't we hear more about Saber?


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## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

Amsoil is great for keeping dust down on gravel driveways...


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> What brings you to the conclusion of a "dirty condition?"
> 
> What would a 45:1 800 do ?


Blowing partialy combusted oil out the exhaust.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> If you had an adjustable carb you could turn the H screw s little to the right and take care of the "smokiness"


Autotune does that for me. It's not a tuning issue. The saw runs great.


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Amsoil is great for keeping dust down on gravel driveways...



Now be nice. Have you used Saber? If so any pictures of your failures? How would you refute the 100s of cords cut by Saber in everything from 562xp to 660 to 661s with no hiccup? Yes 100s of cords? 

Would you put your $ where your assertion is against Saber at 100:1 with your 800 Off Road and two new 562xp for a $1000 purse to the winner of two zip tied brand new saws at WOT throttle until one blows? With a non-biased moderator? 

Yep, I'm calling you out Bwalker let's go. Not rich enough for you? Let's go to 661s. Bring on your 800 off road.


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Autotune does that for me. It's not a tuning issue. The saw runs great.


Running 800 at 32:1 lets me know when I'm rich, I lean it out a bit and it cleans up well and no smoke. None of my saws smoke with it when tuned properly.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2015)

100:1 scares me.....it might work great, but it won't be in any of mine[emoji2]


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> Now be nice. Have you used Saber? If so any pictures of your failures? How would you refute the 100s of cords cut by Saber in everything from 562xp to 660 to 661s with no hiccup? Yes 100s of cords?
> 
> Would you put your $ where your assertion is against Saber at 100:1 with your 800 Off Road and two new 562xp for a $1000 purse to the winner of two zip tied brand new saws at WOT throttle until one blows? With a non-biased moderator?
> 
> Yep, I'm calling you out Bwalker let's go. Not rich enough for you? Let's go to 661s. Bring on your 800 off road.


Ok... Let me get this straight, you would take two new saws, one at 100:1 and the other at 32:1. Zip tie throttles and see which one spills her guts first? 

Shoot... I'd take you up on that one.


----------



## cedarshark (Aug 14, 2015)

RAYINTOMBALL said:


> Yep pretty toasty. 100s all week. Always wondered what ratio of whale blubber to Aviation fuel I should run in my poulan woodshark 1800.



LOL. Meeting my son in Rosanky(south of Bastrop) to clear a power line route on his property. Going to try some Amsoil Sabre in an 044 and Echo 620p.


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 14, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Sabre is $38 gallon. $10.40 a quart IIRC. Dolmar synthetic $1.25 1 gallon mix. $2.25 for 2.5 gallon mix



That is the best price for Sabre I have seen in Ohio. The prices for ultra that I have seen are much higher than what has been mentioned.

People used to talk about Sabre but then it became un fashionable, like all the other Amsoil products. Plus it does not have a cool name like A2ceo.


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Ok... Let me get this straight, you would take two new saws, one at 100:1 and the other at 32:1. Zip tie throttles and see which one spills her guts first?
> 
> Shoot... I'd take you up on that one.



Duh, anyone would take that lol. 

100:1 to make it even since "this driveway oil (Saber) is crap oil. Let's go. I'll take more than one player, you in Deets? 100:1. BOTH oils. Any sissy oil can run at 32:1 all day. Put your big boy pants on and let's go!


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

Where did Bwalker go? LOL Let's do this! 100:1 zip tied. New saws. I make a living at this lol


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

37 minutes ago and no response from Bwalker that claims Saber is only good for "gravel driveways" lol. Right. Thought so.


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> Duh, anyone would take that lol.
> 
> 100:1 to make it even since "this driveway oil (Saber) is crap oil. Let's go. I'll take more than one player, you in Deets? 100:1. BOTH oils. Any sissy oil can run at 32:1 all day. Put your big boy pants on and let's go!


They would probably just run out of fuel


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 14, 2015)

I would be curious about the test with mtronic saws, never done that. I have done that numorous times with cheapy carbed saws, weed wackers and blowers. Takes awhile, lots of fuel and is not nieghbor friendly.

Oddly enough never bothered to compare two different oils, just different ratios and such things.

2 cycle blowers work the best for oil as tuning for load and loading a tune are easily adjustable. Weed wackers and a drum of water works as well but not as easy to set up.


----------



## porsche965 (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> They would probably just run out of fuel



We would run fuel until the weakest oil would blow sky high. Not a problem  Love stuff like this....


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

Justsaws said:


> I would be curious about the test with mtronic saws, never done that. I have done that numorous times with cheapy carbed saws, weed wackers and blowers. Takes awhile, lots of fuel and is not nieghbor friendly.
> 
> Oddly enough never bothered to compare two different oils, just different ratios and such things.
> 
> 2 cycle blowers work the best for oil as tuning for load and loading a tune are easily adjustable. Weed wackers and a drum of water works as well but not as easy to set up.


Weed wacker and blowers tested at steady throttle would not be realistic of how a chain saw is operated.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> 37 minutes ago and no response from Bwalker that claims Saber is only good for "gravel driveways" lol. Right. Thought so.


Couldn't get any of the Amsoil bots to jump,lol.
In all serious some of the amsoil oils like Dominator are ok. Would run 100:1 or an oil formulates to run at 100:1 in anything I cared about.


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> They would probably just run out of fuel



Get a portable marine tank, easy to top off while stuff is still running. On the cheapy stuff typially modified the tanks or fuel caps because I wanted the engines to be drawing fuel though the stock filter and lines using the stock vent system.


----------



## RAYINTOMBALL (Aug 14, 2015)

cedarshark said:


> LOL. Meeting my son in Rosanky(south of Bastrop) to clear a power line route on his property. Going to try some Amsoil Sabre in an 044 and Echo 620p.


Good deal. Have some cousins not far from there in Giddings. And 2nd cousins in Bastrop not far from the lake. Have a great weekend and be safe. By the way how are things since the big fire? Been awhile since I've been out that way.


----------



## Justsaws (Aug 14, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Weed wacker and blowers tested at steady throttle would not be realistic of how a chain saw is operated.



Milling saw, as close as I could get with out running a chain saw. Tried using a MPS but was not pleased about the safety of it.


----------



## RAYINTOMBALL (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> Where did Bwalker go? LOL Let's do this! 100:1 zip tied. New saws. I make a living at this lol


Don't know where Bwalker went. But if you furnish the saws Id love to watch.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Running 800 at 32:1 lets me know when I'm rich, I lean it out a bit and it cleans up well and no smoke. None of my saws smoke with it when tuned properly.


X2


----------



## fordf150 (Aug 14, 2015)

Not volunteering my saw but Dolmar 6100 would be a great candidate for this 100:1 test. New P&C is only $100 so after they blow it would be cheap to repair back to oem new standards unless a bearing went first.


----------



## Bwildered (Aug 14, 2015)

porsche965 said:


> Now be nice. Have you used Saber? If so any pictures of your failures? How would you refute the 100s of cords cut by Saber in everything from 562xp to 660 to 661s with no hiccup? Yes 100s of cords?
> 
> Would you put your $ where your assertion is against Saber at 100:1 with your 800 Off Road and two new 562xp for a $1000 purse to the winner of two zip tied brand new saws at WOT throttle until one blows? With a non-biased moderator?
> 
> Yep, I'm calling you out Bwalker let's go. Not rich enough for you? Let's go to 661s. Bring on your 800 off road.


And the best thing is you could get sabre to fix or replace the saw if it blew up because they recommend that ratio of oil mix, it is a good challenge though, but I think it would go & go & go until you got sick & tired of waiting for anything to clap out, the momentary lapse of a head pulling back has been priceless.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker (Aug 14, 2015)

I have seen engines run a supprising long time on straight gas. I had a POS homelike trimmer that I filled with straight gas. With the throttle zip tied wide open it ram for nearly an entire tank of fuel before blowing.
I also had an employee fuel a Merc 20 up with straight fuel and it made it a few miles before it seized. After it cooled down I broke it loose and gave it to a friend for parts. He's still running the damn thing on his ducknboat


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 15, 2015)

RAYINTOMBALL said:


> Good deal. Have some cousins not far from there in Giddings. And 2nd cousins in Bastrop not far from the lake. Have a great weekend and be safe. By the way how are things since the big fire? Been awhile since I've been out that way.


I spend half my life at the tomball Dairy Queen. I don't like the fact that everybody in tomball asks if my kids are my grandkids


----------



## RAYINTOMBALL (Aug 15, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I spend half my life at the tomball Dairy Queen. I don't like the fact that everybody in tomball asks if my kids are my grandkids


HuskStihl that's awesome. I lived in Tomball for 16 years. Now about 150 miles north of there in the small town of Streetman. It's all about how you feel not look. Glad I got out of there 4 years ago. Things in Harris county started going downhill. Have a great weekend.


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## Justsaws (Aug 15, 2015)

I would be curious how stable the M-tronic and Autotune systems are after max operating temp is reach and then sustained. It is the main concern that I have with milling with a non tune able saw. I would like to think they would be excellent but have no idea. The decreased fuel consumption is very appealing.


----------



## scallywag (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Blowing partialy combusted oil out the exhaust.


 
Not so!....Have another look at post#3 in this thread, and that saws running @25:1.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Another plug out of a saw runnin Motul 800View attachment 441196



yes!!!

looks a wee bit hot.

if your plug looks like this, who gives a rats ass what the piston top and exhaust buildup/spooge is.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

ultra cured cancer just a few years ago.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

scallywag said:


> Not so!....Have another look at post#3 in this thread, and that saws running @25:1.


Have no doubt at the.load you are running at it burns clean. However in the conditions I am currently running under it doesn't at all. Further, I am not supprised and it's the same thing I expiereanced in the past with 800.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> yes!!!
> 
> looks a wee bit hot.
> 
> if your plug looks like this, who gives a rats ass what the piston top and exhaust buildup/spooge is.


Because it's those other things that matter the most. That plug looks a bit rich btw.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

cut the plug deets. lets take a closer look.

if the chamber heat is correct, you will not get spooge, no?

..would be happy to direct you to some plug reading info bwalker.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Because it's those other things that matter the most. That plug looks a bit rich btw.



......if your main priorities are cleanliness.....just run an oil with the highest poly content you can, and call it good.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> ......if your main priorities are cleanliness.....just run an oil with the highest poly content you can, and call it good.


That's not accurate in regards to PIB.
If you want the highest film strength available just use castor.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

One thing I have always said is there is no one best oil. Each have there trade offs. The mistake many make is using a oil with a pretty high endpoint like 800 under fairly low loads in a chainsaw which has a really low BMEP.
Milling would be a better use for 800 or perhaps falling big wood with a 70cc saw.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> cut the plug deets. lets take a closer look.
> 
> if the chamber heat is correct, you will not get spooge, no?
> 
> ..would be happy to direct you to some plug reading info bwalker.


That really won't tell you anything with a plug that's been run over a variety of throttle openings over a long time.
I am very failure with how to read a plug.
When you say chamber heat, yiu are correct if the motor is under enough load to run hot enough 800 will burn very clean. The problem is it takes a significant amount of load to reach this point. It really has nothing to do with carb settings...


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

......case in point

although it does not contain PEA......(better imo)

this is a good example of what a high poly concentration oil can do.

http://www.redarmoroil.com/

concentration info here.......http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/d5e66496-3079-4374-82c2-ad427eb044e2

good luck in your quest.

927 is pretty good castor. never had the buildup that some have seen myself. don't know how you got on that topic?


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> That really won't tell you anything with a plug that's been run over a variety of throttle openings over a long time.
> I am very failure with how to read a plug..



.......if he cuts the plug......we will take a look see.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

.....all i can see so far is a normal worn plug. some leaking blow-by around the threads. a ring halfway down on the center electrode......close to optimum heat range. no deposit ring on the insulator tip. bit wet on the bottom of thread ring. possibly rich down low.

if it were me....would opt for a colder heat range plug if the saw was constantly running that kind of load.

what say ye?


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> .......if he cuts the plug......we will take a look see.


That's only valid for a plug chop. This is a well worn plug.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> .....all i can see so far is a normal worn plug. some leaking blow-by around the threads. a ring halfway down on the center electrode......close to optimum heat range. no deposit ring on the insulator tip. bit wet on the bottom of thread ring. possibly rich down low.
> 
> if it were me....would opt for a colder heat range plug if the saw was constantly running that kind of load.
> 
> what say ye?


Heat range looks fine.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> ......case in point
> 
> although it does not contain PEA......(better imo)
> 
> ...


That's not a extremely high PIB content, really.
And the pics Dave posted don't impress me with Red Armor.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Heat range looks fine.



.......look at the ground strap.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> .......look at the ground strap.


Looks fine, a bit on the cool side.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

scallywag said:


> I've posted these pics on AS before showing the results of using Motul 800 in my Stihl 084 @25:1.
> 
> View attachment 440082
> 
> ...





admit this is subjective.
but compare to this.......with same oil.

too cold, imo. no defining mark on strap.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Looks fine, a bit on the cool side.



edit: comment regarding deets' plug to be clear.

...ash deposits almost to thread base..........hot in my book


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2015)

That plug looks rich to me also ,not real bad but a safe rich setting ,my plugs are more white/light tan than that one and the piston still has a film of oil on it . (I have top secret unobtainable oil though )


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

edit: refering to deets' plug to be clear

.....as the gap is starting to wear....takes more heat......to bridge

maybe with a new plug.....it would not look this way?


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> That plug looks rich to me also ,not real bad but a safe rich setting ,my plugs are more white/light tan than that one and the piston still has a film of oil on it . (I have top secret unobtainable oil though )



agree


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> That's not a extremely high PIB content, really.
> And the pics Dave posted don't impress me with Red Armor.



......looks like enough to do the job


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> That's only valid for a plug chop. This is a well worn plug.



edit: added "up" and 2nd and 3rd sentence.

........have you ever cut (up) a plug with time on it?

a lot can be learned. plug chops on a new plug to check tuning on a run down the strip are a different matter.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

back to oil........just using cheap echo power blend oil here until i run out. lol.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> edit: comment regarding deets' plug to be clear.
> 
> ...ash deposits almost to thread base..........hot in my book


Deposits mean cool.. if it's too hot they will be brunt off along with the plating on the ground strap.


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 15, 2015)

Here's the saw that the plug came out of 


I just tore this saw down because of a low end bog it developed that I couldn't fix with tuning..... Crank seals


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

edit: comment regarding deets' plug to be clear.

...ash deposits almost to thread base..........hot in my book

Deposits mean cool.. if it's too hot they will be brunt off along with the plating on the ground strap.

----------------------------------
edit: added to what post this reply is aimed.

imo...the ash deposits on deets' plug are very close to normal operating conditions of a well used plug with good tune.

encourage folks to consult major spark plug tech documents and various other sources to determine what this is for themselves.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> back to oil........just using cheap echo power blend oil here until i run out. lol.


Nothing wrong with powerblend.


one.man.band said:


> imo...the ash deposits on deets' plug are very close to normal operating conditions of a well used plug with good tune.
> 
> encourage folks to consult major spark plug tech documents and various other sources to determine what this is for themselves.


Brad posted a good plus primer early that describes exactly what I am saying.
With that said I have never seen a factory reccomended plug that was a heat range too hot. On the other hand I nearly always run a projected tip plug 1 or two heat ranges hotter in a 2 stroke motorcycle. In 250cc bikes I run a BPR7ES instead of the factory spec BR8ES and in a 500 I run a BPR7ES instead of the standard BR8ES.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2015)

ever try the b8es ? no resistor ?


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> edit: added "up" and 2nd and 3rd sentence.
> 
> ........have you ever cut (up) a plug with time on it?
> 
> a lot can be learned. plug chops on a new plug to check tuning on a run down the strip are a different matter.


Yes, I have. Really the plug chop has to be done with a brand new plug and operated such that the motor is at full throttle for a period time then the throttle chopped and kill switch enganged. Doing it any other way is a complete crap shoot


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> ever try the b8es ? no resistor ?


No, I have heard they can cause problems with the electronics, so I have never used them.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> ever try the b8es ? no resistor ?


No, I have heard they can cause problems with the electronics, so I have never used them.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 15, 2015)

i don't subscribe to the method of tuning a bike oil in a saw motor to raise the temp enough for proper burn off. keep in my mind, i don't do milling. don't see the point in using exotic oils for what i do.

guy's like TRX and mdav are going to live to be the age of 150 years doing that with the physical shape they must be in.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> No, I have heard they can cause problems with the electronics, so I have never used them.


On my race bike they worked ok ,I just thought in a car solid wires or non resistor plugs were supposed to make the radio humm ?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2015)

The guy at Dumonde tech recommended this for my high compresion saw ,said the dtp was overkill and wasting my money on it ,i just ordered 3 half gallons ,says injector or premix on bottle ,if i do not like it ,maybe it will work good in my boat ,i will try in the boat also see if cuts the smoke down ,it is about 32 bucks for a half gallon jug .I like the blue color also so i can tell there is mix in the fuel .


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> The guy at Dumonde tech recommended this for my high compresion saw ,said the dtp was overkill and wasting my money on it ,i just ordered 3 half gallons ,says injector or premix on bottle ,if i do not like it ,maybe it will work good in my boat ,i will try in the boat also see if cuts the smoke down ,it is about 32 bucks for a half gallon jug .I like the blue color also so i can tell there is mix in the fuel .


Marine oil, would not run it.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> i don't subscribe to the method of tuning a bike oil in a saw motor to raise the temp enough for proper burn off. keep in my mind, i don't do milling. don't see the point in using exotic oils for what i do.
> 
> guy's like TRX and mdav are going to live to be the age of 150 years doing that with the physical shape they must be in.


Honestly, I agree in regards to exotic oils in a saw in that they are not needed and in many cases counter productive.
Tuning should never be done to accomplish clean combustion. Tuning is spot on when it's spot on and leaning your mixture out to combust something like 800 or R50 isn't a good idea. Milling obviously loads the motor enough to burn them off, but for everyday cutting in many cases it doesn't when the carb is tuned properly.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2015)

*Subject:*
Chainsaw mix oil
*Short Message*
I just tried some of your dtp 2 stroke oil ,as recommended by my bike shop for my stihl chainsaw that has been modified by porting ,it has about 220 psi ,i like how it runs with this oil ,but may be more than i need for a saw ,would the z1-tcw work ok for my needs or the l111 ?

Hi Brian, both Z-1 and L111 would be excellent for your chain saw. If pricing is a concern then Z-1 would be best. Then L111. They both are excellent. Both burn very clean and have good throttle response with very high protection. Thank you for you support of Dumonde Tech products. Dumonde Design Group Inc. 

I will try some out and report how i like it ,it says premix or marine use ,if i do not like how my piston looks after a day of milling ,the rest will be for the boat ,the penzoil crap smokes bad in the 140 hp suzuki ,when going slow in the lake is too smokey ,maybe this stuff will stop most of that burning cleaner .


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> *Subject:*
> Chainsaw mix oil
> *Short Message*
> I just tried some of your dtp 2 stroke oil ,as recommended by my bike shop for my stihl chainsaw that has been modified by porting ,it has about 220 psi ,i like how it runs with this oil ,but may be more than i need for a saw ,would the z1-tcw work ok for my needs or the l111 ?
> ...


Most outboard oils smoke at low load. They are formulated for high load, low rpm and cool motors. As such they use alot of heavier base stocks and no mettalic detergents.


----------



## Deets066 (Aug 15, 2015)

One of the best oil threads in a while! I like the plug reading and would like to learn more about it.

B walker, since you seem to know all there is about saw oil. What is your oil of choice?


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> One of the best oil threads in a while! I like the plug reading and would like to learn more about it.
> 
> B walker, since you seem to know all there is about saw oil. What is your oil of choice?


I use several. Right now I'm running Maxima K with a side of Motul 800T, but when it's gone I'm going back to Yamalube 2R. I like to use one two stroke oil in my *** and bikes hence I tend toward motor cycle oils.
K2 is great, just not sure it's work double the money of 2R.


----------



## Adirondackstihl (Aug 15, 2015)

What's your issue with 800?
Who bottles Yamalube?

Just my $.03, but VP fuels wouldn't use 710/800 in their SEF if weren't any good......


----------



## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> What's your issue with 800?
> Who bottles Yamalube?
> 
> Just my $.03, but VP fuels wouldn't use 710/800 in their SEF if weren't any good......


800 is very good for what it's intended for. 
I haven't kept up with who is making 2R. Citgo and Chevron have made it in the past and it is currently packaged by Spectrum.


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 15, 2015)

So your saying it's not good for ***?


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## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> So your saying it's not good for ***?


I'd use it for milling.


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 15, 2015)

bwalker said:


> I'd use it for milling.


So it's good for high heat, high load applications........which is 95% of a chainsaws diet, but yet it's inferior the rest of the 5%?
Tell me again why you use it?
I've been inside 3-4 saws that this oil has been run in, and I was very pleased to see residual oil everywhere especially the big end & small end rod bearings.
Not to mention a nice coat on the cylinder walls.
I dropped a 51" poplar last Saturday.
Running everything from a ported 066/36" to a Dolmar 421. Not a hiccup from any of the saws and they were ran hard, especially the 066. Ambient air temp was approx 80f.
When I got home I pulled the muff cover on the 066 just for piece of mind.
Nice film coat on the skirt and muffler was dry.
I've been using 800 @ 32:1 for the last 10gal of VP and I don't see any reason to stop.
However, I do like Amsoil Sabre when mixed 40:1 but I've never burned it in anything other than 100LL.


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## scallywag (Aug 15, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> I've been inside 3-4 saws that this oil has been run in, and I was very pleased to see residual oil everywhere especially the big end & small end rod bearings.
> Not to mention a nice coat on the cylinder walls.


 
I've seen exactly that, even in a saw that hadn't run for two years! It still had oil film on the piston.


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## bwalker (Aug 15, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> So it's good for high heat, high load applications........which is 95% of a chainsaws diet, but yet it's inferior the rest of the 5%?
> Tell me again why you use it?
> I've been inside 3-4 saws that this oil has been run in, and I was very pleased to see residual oil everywhere especially the big end & small end rod bearings.
> Not to mention a nice coat on the cylinder walls.
> ...


Most chainsaw operation isnt very high load. It's the exception rather than the rule.
Residual oil is a product of oil ratio and how the engine was running when shut down.


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## scallywag (Aug 16, 2015)

This ones a worn out old 034, was worn out when it came to me 10 years ago not running. I couldn't say how many hundreds of hours would be on it, it's low on compression and don't see much lovin, just work and a steady diet of 800 @ 25:1. For an old hack of a saw, note the lack of build up on the piston top and the exhaust port.
Oh, and this one does smoke a bit when its first started.


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## Rx7man (Aug 16, 2015)

So many things to say after actually reading all 12 pages of this (I'm bored OK?)

I have run a lot of Esso 2 stroke oil, don't like it much.. Switched to Lucas synthetic snowmobile 2 stroke and so far I like it... low odor and smoke at 32:1, things look good when I take them apart.

About carbon buildup and oil ratios.. this site explains it and I think it makes sense http://forum.dirtrider.com/discussion/7169620/spooge-101-/p1
In short, it says:
The harder you work something, the more oil it's going to need
The more oil you put in, the more power you'll make
Spooge is caused by incorrect jetting for the load, not excess oil.

They didn't go into brands or types of oil (thankfully)

For fuel, around here all I can get in non-ethanol is Chevron 94.. so thats what I use. When I ran a lot of rotary engines, as long as they weren't turboed I'd run the lowest octane rating I could find.. I was taught that octane rating comes about partly because the fuel burns slower, and you should use the LOWEST octane rating you can that doesn't cause knock, and this is particularly true of high-revving engines. 

2 stroke engines will knock just like a 4 stroke engine if the octane rating/compression ratio is high enough... there's nothing about a 2 stroke that makes it automagically immune to it... and air cooled engines especially need to watch out.


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

Low octane fuel does not burn faster. Complete old wives tale. And not all spooge can be tuned around or auto tune saws woukd not do it.


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## fordf150 (Aug 16, 2015)

Could we get some name calling, complaining about mods, maybe even some pop-up vs cut squish discussion going on.....I'm getting bored with all this serious talk about which oil is best


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 16, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Could we get some name calling, complaining about mods, maybe even some pop-up vs cut squish discussion going on.....I'm getting bored with all this serious talk about which oil is best


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## Rockjock (Aug 16, 2015)

Is there a more simple way to approach this?
Like saying if you have a stock saw brand x is good? Or a ported saw brand y etc.
Recently my 023 gave up the ghost and since 1990ish it has run the stihl orange/white bottle of oil and 50:1 cut many a shed of firewood and never skipped a beat. Pulling the muffler I totally expected, after reading these comments it would be caked in carbon. But for a 25 year old saw it looked excellent. So for me that is a good testimonial in my books. I service tree companies and they use either the white or silver bottle of stihl oil, 50:1 stock tuning and I often will pull a muffler just to have a look. Again remarkably clean. ( these are crews that take down the ash trees so they are swamped and have high hour saws)

My point is why not post a guide of sorts,
stock saw this brand is good,
heavy use saw this brand is good etc.

just a thought


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Is there a more simple way to approach this?
> Like saying if you have a stock saw brand x is good? Or a ported saw brand y etc.
> Recently my 023 gave up the ghost and since 1990ish it has run the stihl orange/white bottle of oil and 50:1 cut many a shed of firewood and never skipped a beat. Pulling the muffler I totally expected, after reading these comments it would be caked in carbon. But for a 25 year old saw it looked excellent. So for me that is a good testimonial in my books. I service tree companies and they use either the white or silver bottle of stihl oil, 50:1 stock tuning and I often will pull a muffler just to have a look. Again remarkably clean. ( these are crews that take down the ash trees so they are swamped and have high hour saws)
> 
> ...


It's not that simple. First of all a ported saw is still has a low BMEP, so there is no need to run a different oil in one vs. a stocker.
I would run some of the high end point oils like r50 or 800 when milling. For general use I like Yamalube 2R. Husky oil isn't bad either, ditto Citgo aircooled.


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## Rx7man (Aug 16, 2015)

BMEP means little to the bottom end, while it means a lot more to the top end. my ported saws run 1000 RPM faster than factory redline IN THE CUT.. I'm more concerned about the bottom ends than rings/piston/cylinder in any saw


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## Rockjock (Aug 16, 2015)

bwalker said:


> It's not that simple. First of all a ported saw is still has a low BMEP, so there is no need to run a different oil in one vs. a stocker.
> I would run some of the high end point oils like r50 or 800 when milling. For general use I like Yamalube 2R. Husky oil isn't bad either, ditto Citgo aircooled.



I have to disagree it is that simple. A ported saw is not the norm here. Surely some of my learned fellow members can come up with some recommendations?

Doing a search I am unable to find any of the oils you mentioned locally to me so I suppose I should not run my saw? What I am asking is simple. For those of us that run stock saws what oil should we use, for those that run a saw for work, what oil, ported? oil? Also something that is readily available as well. I have a good friend of mine that mas a monkey saw and is told to use belray. Not an easy thing to find in our part of Ontario so I am sure they would like to find an alternative.


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## huskihl (Aug 16, 2015)

Here we go


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## huskihl (Aug 16, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> So it's good for high heat, high load applications........which is 95% of a chainsaws diet, but yet it's inferior the rest of the 5%?
> Tell me again why you use it?
> I've been inside 3-4 saws that this oil has been run in, and I was very pleased to see residual oil everywhere especially the big end & small end rod bearings.
> Not to mention a nice coat on the cylinder walls.
> ...


Dude...the stihl bar with the black rsn looks kinda.....badass?


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## Adirondackstihl (Aug 16, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> I have to disagree it is that simple. A ported saw is not the norm here. Surely some of my learned fellow members can come up with some recommendations?
> 
> Doing a search I am unable to find any of the oils you mentioned locally to me so I suppose I should not run my saw? What I am asking is simple. For those of us that run stock saws what oil should we use, for those that run a saw for work, what oil, ported? oil? Also something that is readily available as well. I have a good friend of mine that mas a monkey saw and is told to use belray. Not an easy thing to find in our part of Ontario so I am sure they would like to find an alternative.


Order it online


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## Rockjock (Aug 16, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Order it online



That is an option for them I suppose just the shipping is quite high. BUT that is what tyou must do with high performance equipment!


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 16, 2015)

All my saws are stock with only muffler mods and a few have a timing advance but no cylinder work. I've been using Honda HP2 40:1 for a few months and its been great.

No big tune changes when changing from other oils, dry mufflers, leaves a nice coat of oil behind, it does have a little more smell to it but its not really bad, pretty cheap, full synthetic, high film strength, bright blue so you can really tell its mixed, it might not be the "perfect" oil but its doing a great job from what i can tell.

Other oils i've used have been great too but for now its HP2.


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## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2015)

Got to the dirt bike shop and get some Honda HP2 or Yamalube 2R. They seem to be a good cheap alternative. Maxima super M and K2 are good also. Klotz original isn't bad either. I would stay away from Belray like the others have done now.


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## Justsaws (Aug 16, 2015)

If you are not seeing problems with the oil that you are currently using then keep using it, spend more time worrying about the air filter if you are worried about longevity.


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## Miles86 (Aug 16, 2015)

Lately, I have been proving (to myself) that the OEM saw oils are plenty good, and usually the deposit problems are due to the fuel portion. So I have used mainly Sunoco leaded (most economical $ to avoid ethanol) for the last 9 years and no more deposit problems, just make sure to tune the carb a little on the rich side and plenty of oil, just use a good OEM or a racing oil.

Piston wash should be about this size of your fingernail.

Here's a shameless copying of a great tip sheet from rockett brand racing fuels(the old Unocal76 brand)
http://www.rockettbrand.com/downloads/tech_bulletins/Tech-Myths of Leaded Racing Gasoline.pdf

Fuel's with a SG of .71 will burn faster than a low octane pump gas with a SG of .78 etc...


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

just a thought[/QUOTE]
It's not that simple. First of all a ported saw is still has a low BMEP, so there is no need to run a different oil in one vs. a stocker.
I would run some of the high end point oils like r50 or 800 when milling. For general use I like Yamalube 2R. Husky oil isn't bad either, ditto Citgo aircooled.


Rockjock said:


> I have to disagree it is that simple. A ported saw is not the norm here. Surely some of my learned fellow members can come up with some recommendations?
> 
> Doing a search I am unable to find any of the oils you mentioned locally to me so I suppose I should not run my saw? What I am asking is simple. For those of us that run stock saws what oil should we use, for those that run a saw for work, what oil, ported? oil? Also something that is readily available as well. I have a good friend of mine that mas a monkey saw and is told to use belray. Not an easy thing to find in our part of Ontario so I am sure they would like to find an alternative.


Yamaha dealers are everywhere, even in Ontario..


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

Miles86 said:


> Lately, I have been proving (to myself) that the OEM saw oils are plenty good, and usually the deposit problems are due to the fuel portion. So I have used mainly Sunoco leaded (most economical $ to avoid ethanol) for the last 9 years and no more deposit problems, just make sure to tune the carb a little on the rich side and plenty of oil, just use a good OEM or a racing oil.
> 
> Piston wash should be about this size of your fingernail.
> 
> ...


And that makes sense that race fuels burn faster. The quicker you can get the combustion event over with the less chance detonation has to rear it's head.


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

Rx7man said:


> BMEP means little to the bottom end, while it means a lot more to the top end. my ported saws run 1000 RPM faster than factory redline IN THE CUT.. I'm more concerned about the bottom ends than rings/piston/cylinder in any saw


Your ported saw is still a dog compared to a state of the art two stroke and as such the demands it places on oil is minimal.


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## Rockjock (Aug 16, 2015)

bwalker said:


> just a thought


It's not that simple. First of all a ported saw is still has a low BMEP, so there is no need to run a different oil in one vs. a stocker.
I would run some of the high end point oils like r50 or 800 when milling. For general use I like Yamalube 2R. Husky oil isn't bad either, ditto Citgo aircooled.

Yamaha dealers are everywhere, even in Ontario..[/QUOTE]


YES but for a normal stock saw would it be worth the added expense?


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> It's not that simple. First of all a ported saw is still has a low BMEP, so there is no need to run a different oil in one vs. a stocker.
> I would run some of the high end point oils like r50 or 800 when milling. For general use I like Yamalube 2R. Husky oil isn't bad either, ditto Citgo aircooled.
> 
> Yamaha dealers are everywhere, even in Ontario..




YES but for a normal stock saw would it be worth the added expense?[/QUOTE]
Yam 2R is cheaper than Stihl or Husky oil and it's much better quality. Win, win if you ask me.


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## Rockjock (Aug 16, 2015)

bwalker said:


> YES but for a normal stock saw would it be worth the added expense?


Yam 2R is cheaper than Stihl or Husky oil and it's much better quality. Win, win if you ask me.[/QUOTE]
1 liter of stihl oil is about 6.00 so I think it maybe cheaper where you are but not here.  better I dunno as I said I have seen many many saws come in running stihl oil and they look really good. And anyone in the business can tell you tree companies are hard on their tools.


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## bwalker (Aug 16, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Yam 2R is cheaper than Stihl or Husky oil and it's much better quality. Win, win if you ask me.


1 liter of stihl oil is about 6.00 so I think it maybe cheaper here you are but not here.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't that cheap when I lived in ON 8 years ago, but irregardless 2R is still a much better value at $9 bucks a quart.


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## Rockjock (Aug 16, 2015)

bwalker said:


> 1 liter of stihl oil is about 6.00 so I think it maybe cheaper here you are but not here.


It wasn't that cheap when I lived in ON 8 years ago, but irregardless it's still a much better value at $9 bucks a quart.[/QUOTE]

I will call around worth a try I suppose. Unlike Europe the dealers in North America ten to make up their own prices for many things.


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## bwalker (Aug 17, 2015)

Miles86 said:


> Lately, I have been proving (to myself) that the OEM saw oils are plenty good, and usually the deposit problems are due to the fuel portion. So I have used mainly Sunoco leaded (most economical $ to avoid ethanol) for the last 9 years and no more deposit problems, just make sure to tune the carb a little on the rich side and plenty of oil, just use a good OEM or a racing oil.
> 
> Piston wash should be about this size of your fingernail.
> 
> ...


Good info, but the guy is wrong in regards to myth #13. Detonation will certainly destroy a motor and pretty quickly many times in a two stroke.


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 19, 2015)

Knock Knock ,are you guys awake ?



Stuff is fairly thin ,i see why Ben does not like injector mix now ,feels similar to stihl mix in thickness ,maybe a little thinner ,i will try some when i get a chance @ 32 to 1 see how it runs ,and lubes and report back .
And they sent me a sample of chain lube ,wonder if they knew chainsaws do not need this kind of lube for the chain ?


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## HarleyT (Aug 19, 2015)

It says "Keep out of reach of children"...............


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## bwalker (Aug 19, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Knock Knock ,are you guys awake ?
> View attachment 441984
> View attachment 441985
> 
> ...


Its not the visosity that troubles me so much as the additive package. Marine oils have completley different formulations compared to air cooled oils.


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## Deets066 (Aug 19, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Knock Knock ,are you guys awake ?
> View attachment 441984
> View attachment 441985
> 
> ...


No need for bar oil now, just reapply some of that chain lube when the chain appears dry. Cool! One less thing to worry about


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 19, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Its not the visosity that troubles me so much as the additive package. Marine oils have completley different formulations compared to air cooled oils.


Saws do not run as hot as a dirtbike ? Maybe this may work in a saw ,but not a bike ? What does a saw put out ? 5-7 hp ? a good running dirtbike 45 hp ,up to 55 if a factory racer type engine ?


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## bwalker (Aug 19, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Saws do not run as hot as a dirtbike ? Maybe this may work in a saw ,but not a bike ? What does a saw put out ? 5-7 hp ? a good running dirtbike 45 hp ,up to 55 if a factory racer type engine ?


Dirt bikes for he most part are liquid cooled and thus run cooler than saws. The load however placed on them is much higher and the BMEP are much higher for a bike. I would not use it in anything but an outboard.


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## noshow74 (Aug 20, 2015)

Hinerman said:


> Red Armor is a semi-synthetic blend. Not saying it is a bad oil, just not full synthetic. How do I know? I emailed Shindaiwa back in May and asked them. I can forward the email to you if you would like.


If that's the case I might just stick with the power blend x it's also semi synthetic and cheaper than red armor. I used the plain power blend for 15 years at 50:1 in weedeaters and saws with no issue. Ran 87 octane and left fuel in the equipment and can year round with no added stabilizers. Never had a single issue.


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## one.man.band (Aug 20, 2015)

bw...it is not all about bmep. not the whole story.


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## bwalker (Aug 20, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> bw...it is not all about bmep. not the whole story.


Clearly, but it's a significant factor. And the fact remains chainsaws are low tech, low output affairs.


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## one.man.band (Aug 20, 2015)

sorry......but bmep not really. do agree with second sentence.


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## bwalker (Aug 20, 2015)

BMEP is directly related to the second sentence....


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## one.man.band (Aug 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> BMEP is directly related to the second sentence....



don't agree.

take for example two motors. same cc displacement. same bmep. they may have different oil requirements based on rpm.


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## bwalker (Aug 21, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> don't agree.
> 
> take for example two motors. same cc displacement. same bmep. they may have different oil requirements based on rpm.[/QUOTE


Rpm and load determine ratio. Oil type is determined by operating conditions, engine type, etc.


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## one.man.band (Aug 21, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Rpm and load determine ratio. Oil type is determined by operating conditions, engine type, etc.



....yes. add stroke to that.

my point was that having a saw with the greatest HP, torque and bmep numbers that causes: logger's bar nuts to tighten; ladies to spontaneously disrobe; children to wet themselves and baby diaper changes........does not determine what oil or ratio by itself.


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## MarkEagleUSA (Aug 21, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> ladies to spontaneously disrobe


Where can this saw be found?


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## bwalker (Aug 21, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> ....yes. add stroke to that.
> 
> my point was that having a saw with the greatest HP, torque and bmep numbers that causes: logger's bar nuts to tighten; ladies to spontaneously disrobe; children to wet themselves and baby diaper changes........does not determine what oil or ratio by itself.


Nobody ever said it did.


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## DSS (Aug 21, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> ....yes. add stroke to that.
> 
> my point was that having a saw with the greatest HP, torque and bmep numbers that causes: logger's bar nuts to tighten; ladies to spontaneously disrobe; children to wet themselves and baby diaper changes........does not determine what oil or ratio by itself.


So you got a 288 too, huh?


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## Deets066 (Aug 21, 2015)

MarkEagleUSA said:


> Where can this saw be found?


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## BGE541 (Aug 21, 2015)

I just picked up enough oil for awhile... Think im gunna run it (3) 2 second sprays per gallon... bicker on.


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## one.man.band (Aug 21, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> I just picked up enough oil for awhile... Think im gunna run it (3) 2 second sprays per gallon... bicker on.
> 
> View attachment 442379



appreciate the observation. they are all just motors with chains. save a buck and just put some kerosene in a spray bottle, than pay $5 a can for that useless ooze.

edit: rep bought a vowel.


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## one.man.band (Aug 21, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Nobody ever said it did.



....that is why i did.


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## one.man.band (Aug 21, 2015)

one.man.band said:


> ....yes. add stroke to that.
> 
> my point was that having a saw with the greatest HP, torque and bmep numbers that causes: logger's bar nuts to tighten; ladies to spontaneously disrobe; children to wet themselves and baby diaper changes........does not determine what oil or ratio by itself.



isn't that describing that 620 sticky thread? think you may be mistaken mr. DSS.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

10 yrs of stihl oil ran through this engine im overhauling, i have seen cheaper oils perform better than this rings are not stuck but they are worn out. 
just saying though.


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## bwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

Looks like crap...
About what I woukd expect from an ashless formulation and about on par with what saws ran on tcw3 marine oils look like.


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## bwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

For references purposes, here is a 10+ year old Husky 346 piston that's had the snot run out of it.
Machine marks are not worn away at all and no deposits.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> For references purposes, here is a 10+ year old Husky 346 piston that's had the snot run out of it.
> Machine marks are not worn away at all and no deposits.View attachment 442459


What oil?


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## bwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> What oil?


Started out with Mobil MX2T/ Mobil2R, then when those were discontinued switched to Yamalube 2R. Ran a few tanks of Supertechniplat, Citgo Air Cooled, Scamsoil Dominator and R50 too in it over the years. For the last 5 or so years its been on Yam 2R.


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## scallywag (Aug 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> For references purposes, here is a 10+ year old Husky 346 piston that's had the snot run out of it.
> Machine marks are not worn away at all and no deposits.


 
For how many hours for each of those ten plus years?


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## bwalker (Aug 22, 2015)

scallywag said:


> For how many hours for each of those ten plus years?


Never tracked it, but that saw has been to hell and back.
The majority of the hours were with yam and mobil. 98% maybe.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

about 5400 hrs on said machine it used the stihl grey bottle along with the white bottle years ago. it is run 30 hrs per week 7 months out of the year.


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## Cantdog (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> about 5400 hrs on said machine it used the stihl grey bottle along with the white bottle years ago. it is run 30 hrs per week 7 months out of the year.


Dunno... lad...using your numbers and my math.........that looks more like 8400 hrs to me........and you think the rings are worn out.......that Stihl gray bottle is pizz poor oil ain't it?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

well it is not piss poor but it is better than supertech lol


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## Cantdog (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> well it is not piss poor but it is better than supertech lol


I'm gonna say....any saw truly used the hrs you stated deserves rings no matter what oil was used.....


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

it ran ok but lacked power only had 95 lbs of compression


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## Cantdog (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> it ran ok but lacked power only had 95 lbs of compression




I don't doubt that.....not a bit....at the hrs you gave


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## Deets066 (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> it ran ok but lacked power only had 95 lbs of compression


Had to have a stuck ring or something to only have 95 psi, but then again I've never been inside a saw with that kind of hours ( that I know of anyway)


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## Rockjock (Aug 22, 2015)

MarkEagleUSA said:


> Where can this saw be found?


You need to find a Stihl saw. Just the mere sight of one gets the ladies rather randy!


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> You need to find a Stihl saw. Just the mere sight of one gets the ladies rather randy!


Ha Ha Ha


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## Rockjock (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> Ha Ha Ha


Laugh if you must but they look at my 017 and they are neked and slathering themselves with stihl ultra!  I shitz you not!!!!!!!!!!


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Laugh if you must but they look at my 017 and they are neked and slathering themselves with stihl ultra!  I shitz you not!!!!!!!!!!


no wonder they smell.


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## Rockjock (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> no wonder they smell.



To the untrained and uncouth their bouquet might put you off.. But we Stihl guys are used to it. After all we put up with the husky, dolmar, solo, poulan, and alike crowd all the time! And them's is stinky!


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 22, 2015)

ok you win but i would rather have motul 800 offroad it burns cleaner and has no smell.
but hey my saws dont stink they just smell like fresh cut wood and gasoline.


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## Rockjock (Aug 22, 2015)

jakewells said:


> ok you win but i would rather have motul 800 offroad it burns cleaner and has no smell.
> but hey my saws dont stink they just smell like fresh cut wood and gasoline.



The french gals slather than on. LOL


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