# Dropped into high tension



## ciscoguy01

I know I know it's not funny. I looked around, checked everything. I didn't feel like climbing and limbing it first though... It was heavy on the southeast side of the tree, I wanted it to fall Northwest. I cut a biggggg notch, used the wedge and kept working it. Eventually, it let go and a badddd thing happened... It fell right where I didn't want it to. I thought it'd clear the lines, but it didn't. In the video you can hear the buzzing from the arcing... This is actually pretty funny. Althoughhhhhhhhh, I was VERY lucky the lines didn't come down and leave a live lead on the ground. This was a near miss for sure. Next time I will climb it and do it the right way.   

(THIS IS A DON'T DO OR TAKE SHORTCUT OR ELSE VIDEO!!!!)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8844558059294332074


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## BC_Logger

next time climb it or rope it over a good lesson to learn glad your ok


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## MuniciPAL

oh boy. glad your alright. 
that had mega potential to kill and injure.


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## Stihlboy088

*Ppe*

Chaps? Helmet? Common Sense?


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## TimberMcPherson

"Didnt feel like climbing it??"
Congrats, you just made the definition of cowboy. If this is the standard of your work, you might get safer work in Iraq. We all make mistakes, but that was something I would expect from a homeowner with a wild thing.

Seriously. 

My wife just saw the movie and asked why you didnt climb it. I hope you continue to work by yourself because at that rate your going to kill someone one day.

You were lucky THIS time


I do have the respect the fact you had to balls to post the video, so I just have to ask why you didnt climb it, why? SE heavy lean means thats where the tree wants to go, you have to have twice the persuasion to get it to do otherwise. A tirfer or a side set guideline would have avoided this.

Mate at the very least I hope you learned something from this. Please!


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## Dadatwins

That had to be one of the most dangerous 'don't do this' method of treework I have ever seen. Take some classes, read some books, ask some questions, and please put the saws away before someone gets killed. Glad no one was hurt, but that was scary and definitly NOT funny.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Was that your wife or girlfriend you nearly killed/maimed with you?:deadhorse:


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## Ekka

Converted to WMV and rotated 90 degrees so we see the action wwithout straining our necks/eyes ... all no charge of course.

I dont have to say anything, you know what I think! :monkey: 

3.13mins and 16mb WMV

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/ciscoguy01.wmv


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## Husky137

Well I guess everything has been said.

Nothing funny at all.


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## ciscoguy01

*Not*

This was of a DO NOT DO!!!! Please take it that way when you watch it... God knows this isn't the first dumb thing, or the last, I will do in my life...


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## Bigus Termitius

That was so funny I forgot to laugh. 

I guarantee that movie wouldn't have been "rated PG" had someone gotten fried or squashed, or better yet, fried then squashed and then maybe fried again just to make sure the job gets done right.

This isn't a cartoon...you don't get to get up and try again when ACME's arborist certification in a pill doesn't pan out, Wiley. 

Alright, you're human and I've hacked on you long enough, glad you're ok.

Now pull yourself together, man!


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## ciscoguy01

*Nice*



Bigus Termitius said:


> That was so funny I forgot to laugh.
> 
> I guarantee that movie wouldn't have been "rated PG" had someone gotten fried or squashed, or better yet, fried then squashed and then maybe fried again just to make sure the job gets done right.
> 
> This isn't a cartoon...you don't get to get up and try again when ACME's arborist certification in a pill doesn't pan out, Wiley.
> 
> Alright, you're human and I've hacked on you long enough, glad you're ok.
> 
> Now pull yourself together, man!



I like your avatar Termite dude.


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## SWAMPY036

:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:


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## STIHLSamantha

*the wifey's retort...*

It made a cool sound and emitted a pretty blue color that was very prominent in the light of day...i was ignorant in the fact that my life was in danger...(maybe it was his idea of getting rid of his first wife! heehee!)


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## Adkpk

Good to see you two back and I'll add, alive.


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## treesquirrel

Please consider another line of work.

Your actions can and will affect the entire industry and we already have enough negative working against us.

I hope you are happy to be alive, you should be.


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## lxt

typical DIY, I got a call about 1-2 weeks ago woman on the phone crying & saying they had an emergency, well a good friend of theirs came over with his 1976 simon crane truck, leaky hydraulics, etc... puts the 35ft stick in the air, climbs an ext. ladder chains the tree to the crane attachment, notches & backcuts this 40-50ft butternut with a lean over house.

His crane cant budge it & with drift in the hyd. lines the tree is making a gradual decent toward center of the house. Now I get the call at 8:30 pm its dark & I call the team up, we arrive at 10:30pm & proceed to rig like mad men to try to save the house, crane operator was drinking a beer when we got there, The HOME OWNER was irate!!! throwing ball, many floodlights, 2 1/2" ropes, 1 5/8" rope, 2 rope cum-a-longs,& a snatch block later, saved the house.

I was paid well!!! the crane operator is an idiot but did get me future work with an airport, Now get this!! he has an escavation co. & was doing this tree for free because he wanted the wood for the co.`s central boiler!!!

I watch videos like this & just cant believe when people dont know their outta thier league!! & a evergreen to boot, easy climb to atleast put a rope in!! glad your OK!! stay away from tree work!!!

LXT............


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## TDunk

lxt said:


> typical DIY, I got a call about 1-2 weeks ago woman on the phone crying & saying they had an emergency, well a good friend of theirs came over with his 1976 simon crane truck, leaky hydraulics, etc... puts the 35ft stick in the air, climbs an ext. ladder chains the tree to the crane attachment, notches & backcuts this 40-50ft butternut with a lean over house.
> 
> His crane cant budge it & with drift in the hyd. lines the tree is making a gradual decent toward center of the house. Now I get the call at 8:30 pm its dark & I call the team up, we arrive at 10:30pm & proceed to rig like mad men to try to save the house, crane operator was drinking a beer when we got there, The HOME OWNER was irate!!! throwing ball, many floodlights, 2 1/2" ropes, 1 5/8" rope, 2 rope cum-a-longs,& a snatch block later, saved the house.
> 
> I was paid well!!! the crane operator is an idiot but did get me future work with an airport, Now get this!! he has an escavation co. & was doing this tree for free because he wanted the wood for the co.`s central boiler!!!
> 
> I watch videos like this & just cant believe when people dont know their outta thier league!! & a evergreen to boot, easy climb to atleast put a rope in!! glad your OK!! stay away from tree work!!!
> 
> LXT............



Unreal..........did you get more work from some more of his idiot moves or him asking for help ???


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## ciscoguy01

*Here we go...*

What I will say is this. If nothing like this has EVER happened to anyone, you probably haven't cut enough trees. Yes, more precautions should've been taken, on the same hand, how many trees has ANYONE cut in here that have fallen the wrong direction. If they haven't, you haven't cut enough. I've been in the woods for nearing 25yrs now, not felling, but on the same hand, this wasn't expected. I did think the tree would clear the line if it would have fallen backwards, which it did. The actual tree never touched the line, it was merely a branch, and by branch, I mean something around 1/2 inch I'd guess, the sound was an arc. STOP WITH THE BASHING!!! I didn't post it to hear petty comments from people about how horrible I am, or what a d1psh1t I am. I posted it as informative, preventative, "if your thinking about doing something halfa5sed, take the time to do it right, or else." Save your comments and learn something. Now, take this video for all you guys that have companies, show it to your guys on how important safety is and taking the time to do things right, and run with it... Back to the chainsaw gallery eh?


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## Trinity Honoria

ciscoguy01 said:


> What I will say is this. If nothing like this has EVER happened to anyone, you probably haven't cut enough trees. Yes, more precautions should've been taken, on the same hand, how many trees has ANYONE cut in here that have fallen the wrong direction. If they haven't, you haven't cut enough. I've been in the woods for nearing 25yrs now, not felling, but on the same hand, this wasn't expected... STOP WITH THE BASHING!!! I didn't post it to hear petty comments from people about how horrible I am, or what a d1psh1t I am. I posted it as informative, preventative, "if your thinking about doing something halfa5sed, take the time to do it right, or else." Save your comments and learn something. Now, take this video for all you guys that have companies, show it to your guys on how important safety is and taking the time to do things right, and run with it... Back to the chainsaw gallery eh?



former home owner here... who doesn't own a chain saw... HOWEVER, even a simple woman like myself was aghast at your approach to the tree... i have learned enough from the people here (many who you claim are bashing you) that to have your honey bun that close with the camera is a big OOPS since she was within range of the tree; you weren't wearing any PPE (another OOPS!); as i could hear the tree making creaking noises, you start removing your clothing, instead of watching where the tree was headed (coulda been on your head); and you were simply out of your league. Nothing entertaining about it-- unless you enjoy observing the Darwin Effect. it saddens me that you thought of your video as instructional... when even i saw it as a sad ploy of "Hey, y'all, watch this!!!" 

from what i have gathered from the reputable, trained, and knowledgable folks here, yes, trees can fall in places other then planned-- but i didn't see any planning in your description or video. it was simply a dangerous amateur (which i would be if i attempted to take down even a branch) assuming that with a wish and a prayer, the tree would be obedient and fall where the un-informed would assume it would fall.

and i really don't think the folks are bashing you as much as trying to save your sorry a$$ life and encourage you to not quit your day job... and don't risk your lady love's life either.


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## LarryTheCableGuy

ciscoguy01 said:


> The actual tree never touched the line, it was merely a branch, and by branch, I mean something around 1/2 inch I'd guess, the sound was an arc.



Yeah, good point. With that little branch (which somehow wasn't part of the actual tree  ) someone nearby might have only been partially dead.

_"If nothing like this has EVER happened to anyone, you probably haven't cut enough trees."_

That's some faulty thinking in my book. S**t like that happening is waaaaay too serious for a caviler attitude that expects it to happed eventually.


.


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## Bigus Termitius

STIHLSamantha said:


> It made a cool sound and emitted a pretty blue color that was very prominent in the light of day...i was ignorant in the fact that my life was in danger...(maybe it was his idea of getting rid of his first wife! heehee!)



That cool sound and pretty blue light isn't for your wonderment, sis. It's death on an ugly, ugly stick. What you thought was "cool" chilled me to the bone.

Your astonished, lassie faire approach reminds me of that stripper chick in _Independence Day_ that promises not to go to welcome the UFO and finds herself at the top of the Empire State building right before the ufo opens up with cool sounds and pretty colorful light mere moments before it blows them away.

If it's cool sounds and pretty colorful light that you want, go take in a laser light show, or or or Fireworks, yeah Fireworks!

Please consider taking this experience a bit more soberly.


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## beowulf343

ciscoguy01 said:


> In the video you can hear the buzzing from the arcing... This is actually pretty funny.





STIHLSamantha said:


> It made a cool sound and emitted a pretty blue color that was very prominent in the light of day



FUNNY? COOL? You two are idiots! Bigus was right-you spend any time around power and that sound will clench your butt cheeks together so tight you won't have to worry about taking a dump for a week. That is one of the worst sounds in the world because it means someone just messed up very badly and only lady luck knows how much worse it's gonna get. I guess you haven't seen two lines slapped together and a fireball rolling around the ground-tons of fun! Seen a house drop blow polesaw blades in half-great party trick for you! Broken lines sparking on the ground and blowing holes in concrete-that will turn the ladies on! Lord, save us from engineers who think they can run a saw!


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## ciscoguy01

*Electricity*

I'm also an electrician. Did you know that your standard 110/120 house voltage is about 1000x's more dangerous than the 480 that's passing overhead. If you knew ANYthing about electricity you'd know that. Even a 208/220/240 circuit is wayyyy less dangerous than the 110 in your house outlets. Tell you what, next time you get a chance, make sure your 200amp standard service is grounded, and stick your hand on the poles of your house service. If your dry and have insulated shoes you WILL NOT get shocked. The chances of getting fried from a line are almost NIL from 30' away. So stop being dramatic and go cut some wood dude... It is funny. Nothing anyone on here is going to tell me will make me think it isn't funny. My wife and I are still laughing about it. Course we base jump, skydive and alot of other stupid stuff, so this really doesn't stack up as SCARY on the list of things... Go climb a rock...


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## Trinity Honoria

ciscoguy01 said:


> So stop being dramatic and go cut some wood dude... It is funny. Nothing anyone on here is going to tell me will make me think it isn't funny. My wife and I are still laughing about it. Course we base jump, skydive and alot of other stupid stuff, so this really doesn't stack up as SCARY on the list of things... Go climb a rock...



oh my... the Darwin Effect continues....


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## beowulf343

ciscoguy01 said:


> The chances of getting fried from a line are almost NIL from 30' away.



Indirect contact. 

There was a posting of a groundie killed just recently-how far away from the lines was he?


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## lxt

ciscoguy01 said:


> What I will say is this. If nothing like this has EVER happened to anyone, you probably haven't cut enough trees. Yes, more precautions should've been taken, on the same hand, how many trees has ANYONE cut in here that have fallen the wrong direction. If they haven't, you haven't cut enough. I've been in the woods for nearing 25yrs now, not felling, but on the same hand, this wasn't expected. I did think the tree would clear the line if it would have fallen backwards, which it did. The actual tree never touched the line, it was merely a branch, and by branch, I mean something around 1/2 inch I'd guess, the sound was an arc. STOP WITH THE BASHING!!! I didn't post it to hear petty comments from people about how horrible I am, or what a d1psh1t I am. I posted it as informative, preventative, "if your thinking about doing something halfa5sed, take the time to do it right, or else." Save your comments and learn something. Now, take this video for all you guys that have companies, show it to your guys on how important safety is and taking the time to do things right, and run with it... Back to the chainsaw gallery eh?




WRONG, ive been doing it for going on 21yrs & was taught the right way!!! Ive had accidents usually a bare secondary that the inspector wouldnt have rubber up when asked cause production & puttin a green line through the miles is more important. 

one thing about electricians Treeco, when it comes to high voltage most just dont know!! homerun to the box here, circuit there, 12-2, 14-2, etc... this they know!!!! many have never seen a 23kv transformer blow, many dont even know how to tell if its 23kv & this guy thinks its funny!!!

wouldnt have been funny if a Little kid was on his swing set down the road & you put the line down uhh? stick with jumpin, try no chute now that would be funny!!!

LXT................


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## John Paul Sanborn

A year or two ago there was a similar accident when a crew dropped a tree on power and took it down on a young man who was severely injured to the pointy he could not sweat. I think he died that summer from hyperthermia. Very gruesome pictures on this site from that poor fellows demise.

I do appreciate your sharing your story, and I thank God that you and your pretty wife are hale and whole together. 

The problem I see is that your attitude does not show you understand the gravity of the situation.


there was electrical contact with your wife near the lines
Your wife was in the danger zone of the fall, only the faller should be that close to the tree
neither of you were weraing any head protection. Why do the call dead limbs widow makers?



If I watched the vid again, I could add to my list. You need some instruction my young friend, so that you and your lovely wife can grow old together. Your learning is a bunch of bad habits


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## jmcguiretree

Stick to the electric work and leave tree work to the pro's.


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## ciscoguy01

*Wife*

The wife actually was farther away then you think. The whole tree was only 26' tall, I cut it and only could get 2 10' logs, wife was over 30'. I made her run even farther, just in case... She was NEVER in danger. If that tree would have fallen straight towards her it COULD NOT have hit her. As far as kids up the road, there's not a house within .25 miles of me. I don't live near anyone. Don't you think your beating the horse here??? I still hold to the point that there are wayyyyyy to many people on here that this has happened to that don't/won't say anything. It was not a normal occurence, I can guarantee this WON'T ever happen again to me. It won't happen again cause next time I'll climb it, put ropes on it, or get my bucket truck and cut low first...  

I'm still smilin'


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## Dadatwins

ciscoguy01 said:


> The wife actually was farther away then you think. The whole tree was only 26' tall, I cut it and only could get 2 10' logs, wife was over 30'. I made her run even farther, just in case... She was NEVER in danger. If that tree would have fallen straight towards her it COULD NOT have hit her. As far as kids up the road, there's not a house within .25 miles of me. I don't live near anyone. Don't you think your beating the horse here???



Don't want to keep beating up the dead horse but I get the feeling you are still not understanding the danger of what you did. The fact that the tree hit the wire at all is the dangerous part, and like most who know nothing about the power lines dismiss them as 'just a wire'. If the tree did not fall and ended up shorting the line do you realize a backfeed into ALL the houses on the line could have occured? Ever see a power panel blown off a house? How about a few blocks full of fried refrigerators and plasma TV's and computers. Think your insurance company would just write a check fot that? As for being able to run away from the danger, I don't know of anyone that has outrun a direct ground short from a power line. I am glad you are still smilin' and hope that you look at the wires and tree work with a little more respect next time.


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## John Paul Sanborn

:deadhorse:


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## Canyon Angler

ciscoguy01 said:


> I'm also an electrician. Did you know that your standard 110/120 house voltage is about 1000x's more dangerous than the 480 that's passing overhead. If you knew ANYthing about electricity you'd know that. Even a 208/220/240 circuit is wayyyy less dangerous than the 110 in your house outlets.



Going by that reasoning, I ought to be able to stand in my bathtub and bite down on a high-tension 110 kVAC transmission line with no ill effect, no?

Glad yer OK, but you ain't wiring my house!


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## sawinredneck

Canyon Angler said:


> Going by that reasoning, I ought to be able to stand in my bathtub and bite down on a high-tension 110 kVAC transmission line with no ill effect, no?
> 
> Glad yer OK, but you ain't wiring my house!



In a way, he is right. Most electricians agree, 120 will "grab" you and hold you if you touch it, 240 and 480 will throw you away from it.

I still wouldn't want to play with that high tension line though:jawdrop:


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## Urbicide

Electrical burns are totally different than chemical or heat burns in that they cook you from the inside out verses burning the outer layer of your skin. If you are not killed out right then usually you will lose part of your body. It isn't pretty. I was at a safety demonstration put on by the power company when I was an apprentice. There are many safeguards put in place for the lineman's protection but it only takes one incident. I'm not a lineman, btw.


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## deevo

ciscoguy01 said:


> I know I know it's not funny. I looked around, checked everything. I didn't feel like climbing and limbing it first though... It was heavy on the southeast side of the tree, I wanted it to fall Northwest. I cut a biggggg notch, used the wedge and kept working it. Eventually, it let go and a badddd thing happened... It fell right where I didn't want it to. I thought it'd clear the lines, but it didn't. In the video you can hear the buzzing from the arcing... This is actually pretty funny. Althoughhhhhhhhh, I was VERY lucky the lines didn't come down and leave a live lead on the ground. This was a near miss for sure. Next time I will climb it and do it the right way.
> 
> (THIS IS A DON'T DO OR TAKE SHORTCUT OR ELSE VIDEO!!!!)
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8844558059294332074



Yeah I know every body has ripped you apart already, this is the first I've seen of this video. Yes you were way out of your league on this one. Your notch is so screwed up it wasn't even funny, like everyone else said at least rope it to direct it if your not sure, which you weren't. Also you were looking the totally opposite direction of the way the tree was falling when you were walking/running away from it. The lesson learned from this I hope you realize is start off with a small tree then work your way to something like this, or have an experienced person there to help you or call someone that can do it properly. In this business usually your first mistake could be your last! Also your comments about everyone doing something like this is dead wrong. With the proper training and experience you would not find yourself in this kind of disaster, or almost disaster. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse.....but if your out of your element don't put yourself in any undue dangers! 
Stay Safe:greenchainsaw:


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## Gologit

John Paul Sanborn said:


> :deadhorse:



+ 1. Another "look how stupid I was and got away with it" post. I don't buy the fact that this was posted to teach us all something or to give us an example of how not to do things. It's bragging, pure and simple...like a little kid going " Hey guys look at me, I'm doing something dangerous and stupid and aren't I cool"
I'm always up for instruction or object lessons from people who know what they're doing but this is just plain ridiculous.
Cisco, I've read a lot of your posts and you're usually a pretty sensible guy. Quit with the Tree Hero theatrics while you're still ahead.


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## Ekka

Was that tree only 26' tall? Something seems odd there.


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## jmcguiretree

Judging where a 26' tree can fall is easier then a 75' tree.You should have had a rope in it whether it was 26' or 75'.Are you sure on your height????:crazy1:


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## deevo

jmcguiretree said:


> Judging where a 26' tree can fall is easier then a 75' tree.You should have had a rope in it whether it was 26' or 75'.Are you sure on your height????:crazy1:



I don't think he's sure on much? :greenchainsaw:


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## Bigus Termitius

deevo said:


> I don't think he's sure on much? :greenchainsaw:



He's sure it was funny.


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## ciscoguy01

*yes*



Bigus Termitius said:


> He's sure it was funny.



Of that I am sure, lmao...


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## murphy4trees

Gettin in kinda late on this one... 
I personally think the wife has some spunk which I like...
On the other hand... the scene reminds me years ago of when I had Asplund come in to clear a removal from some wires and the climber said... "I've only been climbing 6 months and I think I'm pretty good", and I thought silently... "dude... you are dangerous!"... turns out when the subject came up with another guy on the crew... the groundie said he already had his story worked out for when the climber kills himself...

As far as the tough love goes... I think it mostly alienates people and it is hard to learn when you are in a defensive mode... So I don;t recommend it...

I don't know much about falling with wedges or working around primaries... And I do know about using hinge wood to control the fall... Tough to tell from the video, but it looks like both sides of the hinge were cut through leaving only a little piece of holding wood in the center of what should have been the hinge... I would venture a guess that there was a dutchman bypass on the notch and the hinge siezed when the kerf closed... remember she said something about it moving a little bit.... so it moved a little bit and then siezed (classic evidence of a bypass dutchman) and when it couldn't go to the face, and there was no real hinge to fight the side lean, it just let go.....

I've learned a lot from my mistakes over the years... So there is room for us all to learn something on this one... Now if we spend our time whippin' this guy and calling him names, we might lose an opportunity to learn something from him.

I only heard one other post mention the notch and no one seemed to be concerned as to why the hinge failed.... 

So Cisco can you give us some more information about how the notch and backcut were made... Any chance there was a bypass cut on the notch? Was the saw cutting straight?.. How did you wedge it?... How did the stump and butt look?..Did you study them?.. what kind of fibers were holding?...Did it fall right with the lean or not?... With a little more information we can learn something here and maybe that will help another faller sometime down the road avoid a similar mistake and maybe that could save a life or a who knows what... 

So please can we work together and learn something here?....


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## ciscoguy01

*Cool*

Welllll, if you must know this was the first tree I've tried to wedge the opposite direction, lmao... I've watched it a few times, but am by NO means knowledgeable on this subject. Top of the tree had broken off from a storm recently, I actually didn't really think the tree would hit the line even if it fell that way. What did hit the line was a small limb sticking out, STILL NOT GOOD. :jawdrop: I had made a large notch in the northwestern side of the tree, all the weight was hanging on the southeast side. After notching NE side, I started the backcut. I made the mistake of not backcutting above the notch so it was level to it. (Another bad mistake) I also cut part of the eastern side of the tree to make it swing more westerly when falling... I cut through roughly 80% of the log, both sides included... I started wedging it, using 2 different wedges. I beat them both senseless, thinking it would lean over, instead, it broke off and well, you saw what happened.. opcorn: It wasnt' good... Wasn't really that bad, i.e. nothing bad happened all in all... Hence why I'm laughing still. I loveeeeee learning about new stuff in the woods. Unfortunately, I'm a network engineer and normally any tree cutting I do is WAY in the woods w/out a care in the world except where to run when the tree falls lmao... Anyhoot, yea brother Murph, input for this would be cool and that's what went down... Thanks eh?? Take care guy.


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## clearance

Good God. Murphy ain't no big wood pro faller but you take the cake, "first back leaning tree" OMFG..........


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## ciscoguy01

*No sh1t*



clearance said:


> Good God. Murphy ain't no big wood pro faller but you take the cake, "first back leaning tree" OMFG..........



I'm thinkin' not all of us were born 60, lmao... :jester:


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## l2edneck

This post reminds me of when i posted about killing myself aswell.20 years in the buisness and all i got flamed over and over about my grammar and avatar.Still same spellin and still same avatar.Just learn from it and dont repeat it.As far as yer wife bein there,fact is she prolly got more kahonas than most guys so i say all good besides mistake.

You been here awhile and you know most of these guys are perfect and never make a mistake.........HA



> I'm thinkin' not all of us were born 60, lmao...



yea we were,all smart and never did anything for the first time.....


glad yer safe and life is short so be sure to enjoy !!!!!!!opcorn: 

(insert flaming l2edneck here)


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## sawsong

tbh im a beginner, not a beginner compared to ekka, treemachine, treeco, lxt, bostonbull etc, a fresh faced beginner. I'm 20, i work as a groundie for a local tree surgeon when im not at uni, and i know i have the world to learn,

tbh dude, im not gonna give you grief on what the tree did. you messed up, you know it, the hinge wood was seemingly not enough or even not intact, but that's by the by, you know what you did wrong and its been covered. I'll hold my hands up and say it happened to me on one tree when i was first starting out on my course. what does bother me about things like this is the aparent (from my perspective) disregard for safety, your own and other people's. always be thinking what the worst thing that could happen is, thats how i was taught.

in my mere 2 years of doing what i do on a part time job basis, the first thing i did was buy ppe. good big solid boots, hiflex trousers, helmet, gloves, the works. it cost me more than i care to think about, but i make damn sure i wear it every single time i operate my saw. i know a lot of people let it slide when theyve been doing it a long long time but i dont see it as an option to me in the slightest. 

now ive done some nptc training courses in the felling of trees. i havent moved onto climbing yet, but all in good time and you didnt climb it anyway so irrelevant. 

but regardless of the techniques i had to show my proficiency in, beit a straight tree, one leaning in direction of fell or one leaning against direction of fell, there was one very important thing we had drilled into us that you might find useful in the future. 

2 TREE LENGTH RULE!

2 tree lengths away from powerlines, people, roads, etc etc etc.

now, im no fool. i know there is no way that a tree surgeon/arborist is always going to be 2 tree lengths from buildings, power lines etc, or most would be out of a job, 



but when i cut down trees myself,



I WOULD NEVER let anyone within two tree lengths or twice the longest product of anything i was cutting. It just isnt worth it, and you claim your significant other was what, 4 feet outside the total length of this tree? even if i did believe that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth

perhaps a naiive view, but it's thusfar kept me and those ive worked with safe. i just dont understand people putting productivity before safety even though it happens all to often these days 

however my good deed the other day after just picking my girlfriend up from her house was to stop and politely ask down a homeowner from a tree with ladder against a branch, brandishing shiny chainsaw in everyday clothes. to begin with he was giving me some stick but i told him i couldnt let him in good conscience continue so i would have little choice but to call the police.

thankfully, after much complaining he came down and set down the saw, (not that the police would enforce ppe law i bet) but it had the desired effect. I showed him my qualifications and explained how he should have ppe but even so should not be up there. as always it was a money saving exercise, but he seemed to finally understand the danger he had put himself in and said he would try a pole saw from the diy store. whether he went back up with the chainsaw or not i don't know, but hopefully i did the right thing there.

jim


----------



## Adkpk

Been there done that. Slight down hill lean on a tall 18" dbh spruce. Gf taping the incident. (can't put it on here because I don't know how to load video, not much to see anyway) Knotched it and as I was doing the back cut it started to go the other way. I threw a rope on it and tried to pull it over with the winch. As it came up it suddenly fell over to the left. I turned to the gf and yelled, run. Well, she ran up the hill right under the tree. Why I have no idea. But I felt really dumb and had some deep pain in the belly. Didn't experience laughter. But bad things do go wrong when cutting trees. It managed to crash right on top of the cabin I was building and knocked it flat to the ground. (No nails in it yet so I had a pile of logs to clean up). Amazingly nothing inside got crushed. Job boxes, wheelbarrow, chainsaws all untouched. I was lucky. 

Cisco, is seeing his incident as a lucky event also. Laughing as a way to share his story with us without admitting his stupidity, (I mean msitake). This is ok. We who know cisco know he not one of these dumbies we see on you tube showing off their stupidity. He made a bad cut and wants to gather information about his mistake by posting it. Muph got the ball rolling with that and I learned something finally form this thread. Lets try to keep it on what should have been done not how not how cisco should behave after cutting a tree down. (where's that smiley stepping down from his soapbox )


----------



## ciscoguy01

*Easy now...*

Lets not get all worked up about this again... lol

 opcorn:


----------



## juststumps

ciscoguy01 said:


> I'm also an electrician. Did you know that your standard 110/120 house voltage is about 1000x's more dangerous than the 480 that's passing overhead. If you knew ANYthing about electricity you'd know that. Even a 208/220/240 circuit is wayyyy less dangerous than the 110 in your house outlets. Tell you what, next time you get a chance, make sure your 200amp standard service is grounded, and stick your hand on the poles of your house service. If your dry and have insulated shoes you WILL NOT get shocked. The chances of getting fried from a line are almost NIL from 30' away. So stop being dramatic and go cut some wood dude... It is funny. Nothing anyone on here is going to tell me will make me think it isn't funny. My wife and I are still laughing about it. Course we base jump, skydive and alot of other stupid stuff, so this really doesn't stack up as SCARY on the list of things... Go climb a rock...



i have a lot of years as a substation electrician.....138,000 volts and down... i've seen a lot of stuff blow up... never knew that porcelain could melt,, cast iron,, or that copper could vaporize !!!!!!!

he must be less of an electrician, than he is a tree cutter !!!!!

110 house cirduts have a thing called a "circut breaker " 15, 20, 30 etc amps... they trip out ,,, thats it... you get into supply lines,, they trip out also 1000, 2000, 3000, etc amps,,, they trip out also,, but they try to reclose 1,2,3, times before they lock out......that is if they trip....

KNOWLEDGE = POWER

THINKING YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE= IDIOT


----------



## juststumps

sawinredneck said:


> In a way, he is right. Most electricians agree, 120 will "grab" you and hold you if you touch it, 240 and 480 will throw you away from it.
> 
> I still wouldn't want to play with that high tension line though:jawdrop:



REALLY,,, SILLY ME !!!!!

WOW!!! IS THAT LIKE A 9 OUT OF 10 DENTISTS RECOMEND CREST ????

WHERE DOES THIS CRAP COME FROM ???????

all of it can " KILL YOU "

stop believing these old wifes tales,, it can KILL YOU !!!!! the higher the voltage can KILL YOU QUICKER !!!!!


----------



## murphy4trees

Alright, after reviewing the the video one more time, I can almost guarentee there was a bypass cut on the face... At the very beginning of the shot, the tree moves then stops and they talk about it.... 

I saw the open face... one of the advantages of the open face is that you get a good look at the notch, and you can make sure it is a nice clean cut with no bypass... 
I'd really like to see a picure of the stump and the but of the log to tell for sure.... can you get post one or both of them... 
Also (and this may open up another can of worms, which we've had at in the past)... cutting the backcut level with the notch is the best way to make most precision falling cuts... Now a very little bit higher is just as good in most cases, though I theink 2" is far more than needed.. And even a very little bit lower can cause problems....

Get us the pics id you can...If you can;t....How wide was the hinge? and what was the diameter at the cut and how long was the bar? And tell us about how you placed the wedges... that's not my thing, and there are some highly skilled loggers that can comment most intelligently about the use of wedges... From what I understan wedging against the lean is very doable... shouldn;t have been a problem if done properly....

Help us out here bro... some of us are actually interested in learning something here, and it could make a big difference.. maybe even savve a life down the road... for the rest hat have their egos invested in being right and making you wrong... you just gotta put up with them, thicken up your skin... They don't understand how their words can kill the beauty of this site... We are all here to learn and have a good time... Let'sdo it!

OK editing this post after going back and looking one more time...
That bar looks quite a bit shorter than the hinge.. It is easy to cut a bypass on the notch and not realize it with a short bar. When the roof cut bypasses the floor and the sawdust sits in the bypass it looks like a clean notch... I was in a hurry recently and bypassed the notch cut..the saw wasn;t cutting straight, the backcut was high into some twisting grain, and I didn;t triple check the notch... when I ran my hand down the apex of the notch a little strip of wood was sticking up out of the floor, about as high as the bar and it felt like a clean notch... Big oak fell 45 degrees off the face.... Got lucky.. no damage... Many lessons learned... Not the least of which is take the time to sharpen a saw before falling trees... If the saw was cutting right that would not have happened.. Take your time, etc... I was complacent... that is only the second time I can remember losing a fall like that in 26 years, though for many years I didn't understand hinge mechanics and got away with it... 
I took over 150 pics of that stump and studied it until I knew exactly what went wrong....


----------



## treesquirrel

I'll have to add to Murphy on the importance of the hinge mechanics.

One of the easiest mistakes to make is to improperly design the hinge then stand there scratching your head wondering why the tree went where it did.

I learned my lesson and got lucky once missing an out building by about 10 feet when if the hinge I cut had been correct I would have missed by well over 50 feet.

When working aloft the importance of hinge mechanics dropping tops means life or death cause if it fails and comes back or barberchairs on top of the climber he/she is in big trouble.

I almost always tie in a pull line for tops to tip the scale in my favor but there are always the easy looking tops which get hinged and felled out.

Also, never underestimate the power of a slight breeze.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

juststumps said:


> stop believing these old wifes tales,, it can KILL YOU !!!!! the higher the voltage can KILL YOU QUICKER !!!!!



If I remember correctly, AC causes muscle contraction, where DC causes retraction. Something about the occilation of the AC current.

Like he said it can all kill, leave it alone.

Yes I know electricians who have no problem working with hot 120 vAC, but even they admit that they know people who cannot. 

It also has to do with how you contact. Having it fall on you could be very bad.


----------



## sawinredneck

juststumps said:


> REALLY,,, SILLY ME !!!!!
> 
> WOW!!! IS THAT LIKE A 9 OUT OF 10 DENTISTS RECOMEND CREST ????
> 
> WHERE DOES THIS CRAP COME FROM ???????
> 
> all of it can " KILL YOU "
> 
> stop believing these old wifes tales,, it can KILL YOU !!!!! the higher the voltage can KILL YOU QUICKER !!!!!



UMMMMMMMM.................. If you had read my post, the one you qouted, I didn't recomend playing with ANY live electricity. I just stated that you MIGHT have a better chance with the higher voltages. I have had 120 throw me across a room, I have had 240 knock the wind out of me, and I have personaly seen the burn marks left when my old boss got into 480!!
I also believe that I stated I wouldn't want to play with high tension line as well.
Chill a bit, I wasn't encouraging any of this behavior!!


----------



## Husky137

I don't touch lectricity at all. It skeers me.:jawdrop:


----------



## monkeywood

*Hinge wood*

As the new guy here, did he tear the hinge with the wedges because of excessive lean?


----------



## Husky137

monkeywood said:


> As the new guy here, did he tear the hinge with the wedges because of excessive lean?




From what I could see in the video, his insertion of wedges was a day late and a dollar short after the tree had set down and eaten his saw. Looked like a pretty straightforward take down against the lean with the proper use of wedges. Unfortunately the vid only shows things after they went all pear shaped and he was trying to pry over a mistake.

It strikes me odd that he is positive that the tree wouldn't have hit cameragirl but he was pretty sure it wasn't going to hit the wires either.


----------



## tree md

I'm sure this has been said but rule number 1 is to assess risk and damage potential. I always climb the tree and put a rope in it if it's not leaning in the direction I want it to fall. You could have put a bull rope in it, run it around another tree, tied a butterfly knot and you and your wife could have got a 10 man pull on it. So glad you and your wife lived to tell about it. The guy who taught me how to work off a crane got fried in an instant and so did his parter. They had been doing tree work for 40 years together and died together. Wasn't funny a bit. 

When something from the ground makes contact with that line it has to come out somewhere. Thank God it wasn't you or your wife.


----------



## Adkpk

treesquirrel said:


> Also, never underestimate the power of a slight breeze.



After going over my mistake over and over again I came to the conclusion that wind was the culprit to my mishap. Seemed like an easy tree to bring down but live and learn.


----------



## juststumps

John Paul Sanborn said:


> If I remember correctly, AC causes muscle contraction, where DC causes retraction. Something about the occilation of the AC current.
> 
> Like he said it can all kill, leave it alone.
> 
> Yes I know electricians who have no problem working with hot 120 vAC, but even they admit that they know people who cannot.
> 
> It also has to do with how you contact. Having it fall on you could be very bad.



all electricity causes muscle contractions..

dc,, contracts

ac contracts,, but it flips back and forth...

hence the thrown away thing...


----------



## tree md

juststumps said:


> all electricity causes muscle contractions..
> 
> dc,, contracts
> 
> ac contracts,, but it flips back and forth...
> 
> hence the thrown away thing...



Yeah, and high tension lines don't flip back in forth, they grab...


----------



## ciscoguy01

*Wind*



Adrpk said:


> After going over my mistake over and over again I came to the conclusion that wind was the culprit to my mishap. Seemed like an easy tree to bring down but live and learn.



Yea, I don't think that helped a bit either, however, the tree was only 24', don't think it was up high enough to be affected. My cousin told me to wait for a windy day when it would be in my favor though, but, then again, same thing, I just plain made a bad judgement call. As for the wife, she was over 20' away, and I sent her runnin' just in case. Before a tree even start to really fall, I'm usually long gone and not hanging around to see anything. Hence why I had her runnin also...


----------



## juststumps

sawinredneck said:


> UMMMMMMMM.................. If you had read my post, the one you qouted, I didn't recomend playing with ANY live electricity. I just stated that you MIGHT have a better chance with the higher voltages. I have had 120 throw me across a room, I have had 240 knock the wind out of me, and I have personaly seen the burn marks left when my old boss got into 480!!
> I also believe that I stated I wouldn't want to play with high tension line as well.
> Chill a bit, I wasn't encouraging any of this behavior!!



i'll chill bro,, its your life !!!! your one of the lucky ones....

a few questions,,

how did you get knocked of your a$$ with 110 ??

why did you go back and **** around with 240 ,, and get hit again ??

i don't like claims like this!!!!!! i got hurt less with 240 than 110,, so 110 is bad... you won't get hurt as bad with 240....

you just GOT LUCKY !!!

but, i'm chilling out... not my problemo....just hope people don't follow your mind set....


----------



## clearance

High voltage, not high tension. there ain't much tension in any powerline, at all. They are rather slack in fact. I wonder where this term came from. When I was young I thought that radial arm saws where "radio alarm saws" 

Today at work we were talking about accidents, voltages, gradients and so forth. The utility inspector and all of us utility tree guys, interesting as always, anyways, stay safe, if you are not trained, stay away from doing treework around powerlines.


----------



## Dadatwins

clearance said:


> Today at work we were talking about accidents, voltages, gradients and so forth. The utility inspector and all of us utility tree guys, interesting as always, anyways, stay safe, if you are not trained, stay away from doing treework around powerlines.



Very true, actually ANY overhead line is to be considered energized, does not have to be a power line. There was a Virginia lineman that was killed a few years ago from leaning on a metal guyline from a street pole. He leaned on the guyline on the ground and it shorted up top against a hot line and it was all over. Freak accident but anything is possible. Be careful.


----------



## ciscoguy01

*Omfg*



TreeCo said:


> Here's a video showing what can happen. Several houses catch fire along with a spectacular light show.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmy9CHCewtg



That is great!!!! Dude, that is like A1 footage there. As for a couple things, I work on utility poles all the time, since I work for a cable company.... That dude that got fried from leaning on the Guidewire did a VERY bad thing. We ALWAYS use a voltage detecter on the pole BEFORE climbing it. I even test mine before every climb to make sure the dang thing is working, ALWAYS.... Everyone does dumb things, I just wouldn't wanna be close if something went wrong. One thing I do know is electric wires are aluminum, which means they are not near as strong as other lines, i.e. we use 10,000lb rated guide wires for our lines and phones etc... Their power lines won't hold 1/2 that weight and will snap alot easier... On the video, the electric company should've had something in place that would act as a breaker. About a week ago my buddy came here, from NYSEG(that's our electric company) and said it only will arc for a few seconds then get kicked. They have stuff in place in case of this. Not sure about where your at, butttt, they should've had some sort of failsafe in place.

As far as for Andy getting zapped by 110 and then by 208/220, if you got cut by your chainsaw, would you cry like a girl and not touch another one (wellllll, you might, but not me or most)? I'd hope not, you'd just try and be a little more careful right??? I think that's what the dude was saying. He's been zapped by both, I've been hit by 110, heck, I think everyone has at least once. If not, try it, it's really not that bad. VERY unlikely you'll die. Never been hit by 220, dont' really have an incling to either. Over in Europe everything is 220, because it's safer. Higher voltages tend to be. That's what Andy was saying. People sometimes just get going so far on a tyrade and ready to persecute w/out trying to find the point of what was being said. Now, lets all have a beer and relax.  

Dude


----------



## belgian

ciscoguy01 said:


> I think that's what the dude was saying. He's been zapped by both, I've been hit by 110, heck, I think everyone has at least once. If not, try it, it's really not that bad. VERY unlikely you'll die. Never been hit by 220, dont' really have an incling to either. Over in Europe everything is 220, because it's safer. Higher voltages tend to be. That's what Andy was saying.
> Now, lets all have a beer and relax.
> 
> Dude





Hey Dude,

I have followed this thread with particular interest, as in most cases, one can learn a lot from other people's experience or mistakes. It's difficult for me to make comments about the tree felling part as other AS members are much more competent in this matter. 

However, your comments about the 'low risk' with power lines or even domestic power circuits are not funny at all. I have worked a few years as a sales engineer for a high voltage switchgear manufacturer and everybody working in this business has HUGE respect for safety measures.

Power lines in europe are either 3, 15, 35, 70, 150 or 380 kV and are called "power" lines, because they transmit huge quantities of electrical power over a long distance. (P = U*I) The HV is required to keep electrical current levels to a minimum, while power losses due to electrical resistance of the cable are directly related (P = R.I²), NOT because the HV is safer :censored: 

Air is a good electrical insulator, and as a rule of thumb, a distance of 1 cm/kV is required to be safe from producing an arc, BUT this value can be influenced a lot by air density, humidity, etc, so always stay away as far as you can.

The most important fact that most forget is that not a particular voltage kills a person, but the current density that flows through his body. If you get juiced, it all depends on the resistance value of your body AND the power of the energy source whether you get killed or not (and that value depends on the humidity of your skin, the shoes you wear, etc.) and the power strength of the line you touched.

In the case of power lines, one can create a shortcut to earth while entering the conductivity area with an object or a person and an arc will be created. The electrical power will generally travel to earth by taking the road of the shortest electrical resistance. That can be the tree, a truck boom or the person itself, or a combination of it, but as there are so many variables involved, no one can really predict which way the arc will travel in case of an accident (same with lightning) . If the arc will travel trough a person, he will get ‘fried’ in an instant. In most cases however, the arc will choose a tree (direct way to earth) or a steel object as conductor, but the arc creates such a tremendous heat, that anybody in reasonable distance of the arc will face severe burning wounds, if not lethal. The latter are the most common injuries involved with HV accidents, but unfortunately many victims are no longer with us to testimony.


Therefor, it’s important to stay away from power lines at all time if you have no reason to be there. And another thing to know is that any voltage can kill you, provided the conditions are bad enough and the power source is strong enough. I only hope Ciscoguy will not find out that fact the hard way himself one day.

Stay safe.


----------



## ciscoguy01

*12,470*



belgian said:


> Hey Dude,
> 
> I have followed this thread with particular interest, as in most cases, one can learn a lot from other people's experience or mistakes. It's difficult for me to make comments about the tree felling part as other AS members are much more competent in this matter.
> 
> However, your comments about the 'low risk' with power lines or even domestic power circuits are not funny at all. I have worked a few years as a sales engineer for a high voltage switchgear manufacturer and everybody working in this business has HUGE respect for safety measures.
> 
> Power lines in europe are either 3, 15, 35, 70, 150 or 380 kV and are called "power" lines, because they transmit huge quantities of electrical power over a long distance. (P = U*I) The HV is required to keep electrical current levels to a minimum, while power losses due to electrical resistance of the cable are directly related (P = R.I²), NOT because the HV is safer :censored:
> 
> Air is a good electrical insulator, and as a rule of thumb, a distance of 1 cm/kV is required to be safe from producing an arc, BUT this value can be influenced a lot by air density, humidity, etc, so always stay away as far as you can.
> 
> The most important fact that most forget is that not a particular voltage kills a person, but the current density that flows through his body. If you get juiced, it all depends on the resistance value of your body AND the power of the energy source whether you get killed or not (and that value depends on the humidity of your skin, the shoes you wear, etc.) and the power strength of the line you touched.
> 
> In the case of power lines, one can create a shortcut to earth while entering the conductivity area with an object or a person and an arc will be created. The electrical power will generally travel to earth by taking the road of the shortest electrical resistance. That can be the tree, a truck boom or the person itself, or a combination of it, but as there are so many variables involved, no one can really predict which way the arc will travel in case of an accident (same with lightning) . If the arc will travel trough a person, he will get ‘fried’ in an instant. In most cases however, the arc will choose a tree (direct way to earth) or a steel object as conductor, but the arc creates such a tremendous heat, that anybody in reasonable distance of the arc will face severe burning wounds, if not lethal. The latter are the most common injuries involved with HV accidents, but unfortunately many victims are no longer with us to testimony.
> 
> 
> Therefor, it’s important to stay away from power lines at all time if you have no reason to be there. And another thing to know is that any voltage can kill you, provided the conditions are bad enough and the power source is strong enough. I only hope Ciscoguy will not find out that fact the hard way himself one day.
> 
> Stay safe.



12,400 phase to phase, 7200V ground to ground is what's on the lines I hit. It would suck to get nailed by that regardless...


----------



## belgian

ciscoguy01 said:


> 12,400 phase to phase, 7200V phase to ground is what's on the lines I hit. It would suck to get nailed by that regardless...



I believe it would not only suck ....


----------



## sawinredneck

juststumps said:


> i'll chill bro,, its your life !!!! your one of the lucky ones....
> 
> a few questions,,
> 
> how did you get knocked of your a$$ with 110 ??
> 
> why did you go back and **** around with 240 ,, and get hit again ??
> 
> i don't like claims like this!!!!!! i got hurt less with 240 than 110,, so 110 is bad... you won't get hurt as bad with 240....
> 
> you just GOT LUCKY !!!
> 
> but, i'm chilling out... not my problemo....just hope people don't follow your mind set....




I bet you are a real hoot at the parties!!! WOW!!!

The 120: I was helping a friend remodel his kitchen, he killed all the power to the kitchen, everything was dead, I did not double check everything, MY BAD, and that particular outlet was on another circuit. Easy enough mistake to make.
The 240: I was having problems with my heater, my house is all electric, and I thought it was the low voltage transformer for the thermostat. No other way than to check it other than live. I bumped my hand on the input and was grounded with the other.
I already know where the second one is gong, but hey, I work in maintenance for a large company with a lot of computer controlled machines. A lot of times THERE IS NO OTHER WAY to diagnose other than having them live.


----------



## ciscoguy01

*Hey*



sawinredneck said:


> I bet you are a real hoot at the parties!!! WOW!!!
> 
> The 120: I was helping a friend remodel his kitchen, he killed all the power to the kitchen, everything was dead, I did not double check everything, MY BAD, and that particular outlet was on another circuit. Easy enough mistake to make.
> The 240: I was having problems with my heater, my house is all electric, and I thought it was the low voltage transformer for the thermostat. No other way than to check it other than live. I bumped my hand on the input and was grounded with the other.
> I already know where the second one is gong, but hey, I work in maintenance for a large company with a lot of computer controlled machines. A lot of times THERE IS NO OTHER WAY to diagnose other than having them live.



Which saw should you buy bro??? lmao


----------



## belgian

sawinredneck said:


> I work in maintenance for a large company with a lot of computer controlled machines. A lot of times THERE IS NO OTHER WAY to diagnose other than having them live.



Good grief Andy, a screwdriver type voltage tester can be had at 2 $, that's even fair to a redneck imo.... 

PS. I checked my books yesterday evening, and read that any voltage as of 50 V AC (120 DC) is enough to provoke heart malfunction and cause possible death. 

God bless America !


----------



## sawinredneck

belgian said:


> Good grief Andy, a screwdriver type voltage tester can be had at 2 $, that's even fair to a redneck imo....
> 
> PS. I checked my books yesterday evening, and read that any voltage as of 50 V AC (120 DC) is enough to provoke heart malfunction and cause possible death.
> 
> God bless America !



I have one of them, NOW!!! Wish I'd had it on the kitchen remodel!!!!!!

No, to test the computer circuts we have to have theml ive, and use a volt meter to check the varing voltages when limit switches are hit, and to see if that PLC is geting the right voltage on the right contact. You also have to be on the phone with the tech at the same time!!! It's a lot of fun!!!!
Hell, the two newest saws, you have to hook up to the internet, be on the phone with the tech, and do all of these test at the same time!! Never seen anything like that!! It was nuts being in KS, having some dude in SC operating the saw while I tested the circuts!!!:jawdrop:


----------



## Mitchell

*learning*



ciscoguy01 said:


> Welllll, if... After notching NE side, I started the backcut. I made the mistake of not backcutting above the notch so it was level to it. (Another bad mistake) I also cut part of the eastern side of the tree to make it swing more westerly when falling... I cut through roughly 80% of the log, both sides included... I started wedging it, using 2 different wedges...



In the name of education then ill chime in. In my opinion ciscoe, cutting the back cut flush is not or was not your big mistake. At times there is good reason to try for flush cutting the stump. Mainly with dead wood or short fat trees. All the kick back step does is possibly stop the tree from jumping the stump [ if it hits something] into the position you should have vacated anyways. I have rarely seen it happen.

Don't get me wrong you will never go to wrong in adding the kick back step on the stump every time. It just might mean cutting the hinge wood closer to the face cut then you would have had if you cut level; that is a far more perilous situation for you then stump shot [as you found out when you cut to much holding/hinge wood off in your video].

An set back can be recovered from with out to much difficulty if you have left a good band of holding/hinge wood. Just go up 2 to three times the diameter of the tree and re fall it. IN your case even you could have steered it only 15 degrees off strait backwards it would have missed the lines. The big mistake you made was to keep cutting the holding/hinge wood before you knew where the tree was committing to. 

On a tree the size you were cutting, you should have been able to get the tree to commit [by standing up] with wedges with a "couple" inches of holding wood remaining. if it isn't re asses before you keep cutting the hing wood. Cut very very slowly with little taps on the throttle and alternate wedging. When you have cut down to about an inch of holding wood, shut the saw off crack the ear muffs and wack the wedges. if you still can't get it to stand up, your unto plan B; refelling with the lean, roping it, jacking it, or knocking it over with another [bigger] tree. 
Also, If you think you can get away with cutting a little more hinge wood start taking it out of the center and leave the sap wood.

Hope this is informative


----------



## ciscoguy01

*Omg*



Mitchell said:


> In the name of education then ill chime in. In my opinion ciscoe, cutting the back cut flush is not or was not your big mistake. At times there is good reason to try for flush cutting the stump. Mainly with dead wood or short fat trees. All the kick back step does is possibly stop the tree from jumping the stump [ if it hits something] into the position you should have vacated anyways. I have rarely seen it happen.
> 
> Don't get me wrong you will never go to wrong in adding the kick back step on the stump every time. It just might mean cutting the hinge wood closer to the face cut then you would have had if you cut level; that is a far more perilous situation for you then stump shot [as you found out when you cut to much holding/hinge wood off in your video].
> 
> An set back can be recovered from with out to much difficulty if you have left a good band of holding/hinge wood. Just go up 2 to three times the diameter of the tree and re fall it. IN your case even you could have steered it only 15 degrees off strait backwards it would have missed the lines. The big mistake you made was to keep cutting the holding/hinge wood before you knew where the tree was committing to.
> 
> On a tree the size you were cutting, you should have been able to get the tree to commit [by standing up] with wedges with a "couple" inches of holding wood remaining. if it isn't re asses before you keep cutting the hing wood. Cut very very slowly with little taps on the throttle and alternate wedging. When you have cut down to about an inch of holding wood, shut the saw off crack the ear muffs and wack the wedges. if you still can't get it to stand up, your unto plan B; refelling with the lean, roping it, jacking it, or knocking it over with another [bigger] tree.
> Also, If you think you can get away with cutting a little more hinge wood start taking it out of the center and leave the sap wood.
> 
> Hope this is informative



Dude, that is awesome info there. Much better than some of the d1psh1ts who just criticize people on here. You have no idea how much this is appreciated. Thanks for the great info bro. Nowwwww, I'm going to get with my cousin and get learning how to fell correctly also as he has a bachelors in Forestry from Paul Smith's college up here... 

 eh?


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## Mitchell

*no worries*

no problem

I presume you have learned your own lesson and don't need every single guy on here to re hash it. I know less then most here about aboricultor in general but I suspect more then most about falling. I hope most folks knowledgeable about the aspects of tree care I'm grappling with share the information I need to help folks in my community. 
Best is to have some one show you the ropes however, that is not always possible. 
Also of note concerning your felling video; if you do cut the the holding wood of one side wholly or substantially don't pound wedges on that side [Unless you have a good lean to that side] bring them around to avoid lifting the tree sideways. 



ciscoguy01 said:


> (Another bad mistake) I also cut part of the eastern side of the tree to make it swing more westerly when falling... I cut through roughly 80% of the log, both sides included...



Taking the time to line your pie/undercut/face cuts up in relation to the site lines on your saw will eliminate the need to use a dutchman. 
Practice face cuts on stumps. Practice cutting level as it makes lining up cuts much easier. Every beginner I have seen when trying to drop the pie out, droops the tip of the bar below level when starting the cut, making the cut sweep past the face cut on a humbolt or it comes up short on a convential. Convential cuts are easier to make but humblolts are safer. Aim for a shallow pie/face cut [25%] so if you have to correct it you have room. 

If you are stuck with using a dutchman to bring the tree into leed you generally still should leave some holding wood on the thin side. 

Keep in mind the literature and folks argue about what exactly is a dutchman. I know of three versions. A regional thing no doubt. All versions agree that it pulls the tree away away from the direction the pie cut aims by manipulating holding wood strength accross the diameter.


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## Fast Freddy

ciscoguy01 said:


> Nowwwww, I'm going to get with my cousin and get learning how to fell correctly also as he has a bachelors in Forestry from Paul Smith's college up here...



A degree from Paul Smith's don't mean ???? in the real world. We have had probably a dozen graduates from that poor excuse of a school over the years-what they know about climbing or felling is laughable. Have three times hired grad's of that school to climb-i hand them a rope and they ask me what they are supposed to do with it. They are not even good for dragging brush cause they think it's beneath them. Too much book learning and not enough hand's on. Oh, they are good with latin names-whoopee doo.


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## ciscoguy01

*Really??/*



Fast Freddy said:


> A degree from Paul Smith's don't mean ???? in the real world. We have had probably a dozen graduates from that poor excuse of a school over the years-what they know about climbing or felling is laughable. Have three times hired grad's of that school to climb-i hand them a rope and they ask me what they are supposed to do with it. They are not even good for dragging brush cause they think it's beneath them. Too much book learning and not enough hand's on. Oh, they are good with latin names-whoopee doo.



Anddddd how bout 63yrs of working in the woods as a primary job??? I'm sure you'd know more than him though. :monkey:


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