# Test! Select the correct backcut...



## Billy_Bob (Jul 28, 2008)

There are 3 pictures on the bottom at the following link. Select the correct backcut by clicking on the picture...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/apply_knowledge/apply3.html


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## 2dogs (Jul 28, 2008)

The answer was on the page.


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## Bushler (Jul 28, 2008)

They said I got it wrong. I disagree. Stupid them. I was taught to make the back cut an inch or so above the face.

Their face looks stupid too. Looks like they learned from beavers.

Dumb, stupid...grumble.

They said my choice would result in a barber chair. Wrong.

No wonder so many people get hurt...if they believe that garbage.

Stomping off to replace track bolts on the shovel.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 28, 2008)

Nailed it! Now I can feel good about myself today.


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## Zackman1801 (Jul 28, 2008)

i didnt see any problems with the notch, its a standard open faced notch, although surely different from anything that you guys use out west though. but i got it right, i almost went for option 2 but i can see that that would leave such a small hinge.


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## oldirty (Jul 28, 2008)

put that tree right in the lay baby.


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## abohac (Jul 28, 2008)

Bushler said:


> They said I got it wrong. I disagree. Stupid them. I was taught to make the back cut an inch or so above the face.
> 
> Their face looks stupid too. Looks like they learned from beavers.
> 
> ...


I was taught the same thing! Matter of fact my dad might have taken my saw awy from with their correct picture.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 28, 2008)

You are all correct - sortof... Here is the trick from another OSHA page. It says...

"Except in Open Face felling, the backcut must be above the level of the horizontal facecut in order to provide an adequate platform to prevent kickback."

So that was an "Open face" cut (as opposed to conventional face or Humbolt face), so I guess using that specific face, you are supposed to make the back cut line up with the intersection of the face cuts????

Note I got it wrong myself. I went with the backcut which was higher and left a hinge.

Note on the following page they show the backcut level and not angled down with an open face cut? (It should be level so far as I know???)...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/cuts.html

OSHA page where it says "Except in Open Face felling..."...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/cuts.html

Open face...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/open_faced_top_cuts.html

Conventional face...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/conventional_top_cuts.html

Humbolt face...
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/humbolt_top_cuts.html


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 28, 2008)

No "step" is needed in the back cut of an open face notch because the hinge remains intact throughout the entire fall.

"Looks like they learned from beavers", That's funny right there. lol.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> No "step" is needed in the back cut of an open face notch because the hinge remains intact throughout the entire fall.



Where did you learn this from if I might ask? Book?


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## Zackman1801 (Jul 29, 2008)

its right on the osha website.


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## 056 kid (Jul 29, 2008)

No stump shot will do you in one of these days! Even though I myself often do not leave enough sometimes.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 29, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> its right on the osha website.



What he said. This technique gives more control because the tree never gets to air out with the weight. An advantage in certain situations, usually arborist work not logging. I want my trees to break clean and jump 99% of the time when logging.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> ...usually arborist work not logging...



OK, I'll go ask the bucket truck guys...


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## treemandan (Jul 29, 2008)

I didn't see the correct answer which is- use a wiffle ball bat.


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## smokechase II (Jul 29, 2008)

*Open Face ???*

*"No "step" is needed in the back cut of an open face notch because the hinge remains intact throughout the entire fall."*

Not always possible.
Ever try cutting dead dried out snags, frozen wood, drought stressed trees etc?

Remember open face is a production technique for felling smaller second growth timber. Works fine there. Its compromises need to be understood just like the compromises made somewhere in every other cutting method.

Not every tree/snag is capable of holding the hinge through a 70 degree + fall so when a bunch of verbiage comes out about "No "step" is needed in the back cut of an open face notch because the hinge remains intact throughout the entire fall" that is setting up the lesser experienced sawyers for failure.

------------

{However, with regard to the higher back-cut preventing all butt logs from kicking back. Take that with a grain of salt too.} 

************

Here is another thought that open face aficionados don't consider. What happens when you're dropping a bigger tree uphill on a fair slope and the hinge wood is still holding? Who you gonna send in there to cut that holding hinge?

Simply; there are also times you want that separation from butt and stump.

--------------

How is a fire fighter going to jump a tree away from a helispot or fireline with the butt hanging on? 
For some reason I get the impression open face doesn't include any of these thoughts in their training.


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## 2dogs (Jul 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"No "step" is needed in the back cut of an open face notch because the hinge remains intact throughout the entire fall."*
> 
> Not always possible.
> Ever try cutting dead dried out snags, frozen wood, drought stressed trees etc?
> ...



Well said there Mr SC.


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## joesawer (Aug 15, 2008)

I say, they have not given enough information to answer the question at all, much less answer it correctly.
In the right circumstances any of the three choices might be right. But imo the need or want for an open face is rare.


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## Zackman1801 (Aug 16, 2008)

that all depends on location. you guys out west dont use much other than the humbolt, while you would see very very few of those up here in the north east. most notches your going to see are the open faced, or conventional, and a boring back cut to go with it. thats the way the GOL is teaching, and also CLP classes.


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## joesawer (Aug 16, 2008)

The way I see it, no one method is the "Best" or the only one that should be used.
I am having a real problem with all the posturing and ego trips with specific styles and "my way is the best, no matter what" attitude that is often seen here and almost always in "official" training media.
Why isn't the theory of what happens when a face cut closes and the hinge breaks being taught and let the cutter decide what to use when and where.
I have seen so many things that work occasionally be taught by the self appointed experts as "The Way" that I find it some what sickening. 
One of the biggest ones is one that Smokechase referred to earlier. Stumpshot is being taught as "The Way" to keep the butt from coming back and hitting you. I have never heard anyone who demands stump shot ever explain, to the people who they demanded too use a high back cut, why and what causes the butt to come back. I would much rather people be taught to recognize when the butt was going to come back than be taught "Oh.....just use a high back cut and it can't slide back and hit you".
First that is bull. Of the many thousands of trees that I have cut with out stump shot, none, not one has ever had the butt slide off the back of the stump, unless it hit something as it was falling or it was up a very steep hill and it bounced over the stump. Invariably the butt always goes off the side of the stump the tree falls toward, unless there is a very good and plain reason for it not too. 
Most times when something pushes the butt off the back of the stump, stumpshot has not prevented it from happening. So imo too teach it as a preventive measure but not what causes it is at best irresponsible.
Another thing that has been irritating me lately is this crazy thing of people pounding wedges into their bore cut. And then being proud of it!! Please give me a break!


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## Gologit (Aug 16, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> that all depends on location. you guys out west dont use much other than the humbolt, while you would see very very few of those up here in the north east. most notches your going to see are the open faced, or conventional, and a boring back cut to go with it. thats the way the GOL is teaching, and also CLP classes.



The main reason for the Humboldt in production cutting is to maximize the scale. Other kinds of undercuts might work better in individual situations but we're used to the Humboldt and know how to finess it to get our lay and save out as much wood as possible. Logging is about production. It might be nice to have the time to turn timber falling into some kind of art form but our main focus is getting a lot of wood on the ground...safely and effeciently. 

That GOL stuff is fine I guess but they seem to teach that if you just follow all their rules and procedures the tree is guaranteed to do exactly what you want it to do every time and without exception. Thats foolish thinking...and damned dangerous besides. Trees don't go to school and they don't read books and they're sure as hell not impressed by a lot of technical thinking and fancy procedures. They'll do what weight and gravity and force tell them to do. Most of the time. For the other times, stay light on your feet and be ready to scramble. That GOL book won't do you a lot of good when it's smashed, along with you, under a tree. Read your lean, watch the wind, watch the lay, don't run out of gas in the back-cut, and have a pocket full of wedges ready. And don't be ashamed to run like hell if the situation calls for it.


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## 2dogs (Aug 16, 2008)

Gologit said:


> That GOL stuff is fine I guess but they seem to teach that if you just follow all their rules and procedures the tree is guaranteed to do exactly what you want it to do every time and without exception. Thats foolish thinking...and damned dangerous besides. Trees don't go to school and they don't read books and they're sure as hell not impressed by a lot of technical thinking and fancy procedures. They'll do what weight and gravity and force tell them to do. Most of the time. For the other times, stay light on your feet and be ready to scramble. That GOL book won't do you a lot of good when it's smashed, along with you, under a tree. Read your lean, watch the wind, watch the lay, don't run out of gas in the back-cut, and have a pocket full of wedges ready. And don't be ashamed to run like hell if the situation calls for it.



In the GOL training are you supposed to make an open face notch in 3' or 4' DBH trees? How about on steep ground? I think that notch would leave a too high of a stump when the unit is steep. If you don't read each tree you will end up in trouble regardless of method.


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## Gologit (Aug 16, 2008)

2dogs said:


> In the GOL training are you supposed to make an open face notch in 3' or 4' DBH trees? How about on steep ground? I think that notch would leave a too high of a stump when the unit is steep. If you don't read each tree you will end up in trouble regardless of method.



:agree2: I've never read the literature or taken the course but I've talked to some people who have. Maybe "listened to peple who have" would be a better choice of words.

It's almost like some wierd form of religion. They get kind of glassy-eyed and start talking faster and waving their arms and their voice goes up an octave or two. They take GOL very seriously and will allow no criticism of their education, techniques, or results. If you question them on anything GOL teaches they fall back on "Well, if it wasn't right GOL wouldn't teach it that way". Kinda reminds me of Jehova's Witnesses... with chainsaws.

During the fires I needed a couple of guys to brush out a road for me so I "borrowed" a couple of kids from a thinning crew. I talked to them and they both could run saw and both had taken the GOL course. Their supervisor confirmed this.

They were a disaster. They were either hung up, broke down, or dropping stuff across the road. They couldn't keep a good distance apart and they were slower than any two young healthy guys ought to be. I tried a couple of times, while cutting them out of a bind, or reminding them that the ROPS on the Cat could only take so much falling weight, to show them a better way but I think GOL had stolen their minds. Trying to re-educate them made them nervous and yelling at them just confused them.

I settled for watching them extra close, falling the tricky stuff myself, and getting them back to their thinning crew in one piece. Their incompetence and ignorance didn't bother me but their total unwillingness to accept anything but GOL scared me. Every other sentence started with."Well, GOL taught us"......I think that was when the yelling started.


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## joesawer (Aug 16, 2008)

Gologit said:


> :agree2: I've never read the literature or taken the course but I've talked to some people who have. Maybe "listened to peple who have" would be a better choice of words.
> 
> It's almost like some wierd form of religion. They get kind of glassy-eyed and start talking faster and waving their arms and their voice goes up an octave or two. They take GOL very seriously and will allow no criticism of their education, techniques, or results. If you question them on anything GOL teaches they fall back on "Well, if it wasn't right GOL wouldn't teach it that way". Kinda reminds me of Jehova's Witnesses... with chainsaws.





LOL........... Very well said.


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## treegal1 (Aug 16, 2008)

In my mind there are a few ways to do it and there are a few ways to do it CORRECTLY and SAFELY. the underlying message that I take away from this thread is that,

1) you need to have proper regionally specific training, and safety awareness.
2) not all trees are the same. go figure.LOL
3) that expertise and understanding will prevail.
4) situational awareness needs to be taught to some more people, before they pick up a saw!LOLOL


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## hammerlogging (Aug 17, 2008)

Knowing GOL technique has nothing to do with experience and judgement. If people are getting that confused in the course, if a novice faller is walking out of the course thinking they are ready for anything, the course is doing them a real disservice. It helped me refine some skills- for instance evaluating exactly how much side lean my hinge can support (most of the time), but I was alreday an experienced faller. Light on your feet, behave nonchalant, but in your head 140%, thats my style. 

I understand why ya'll are annoyed by the preacher types.... perhaps its a west cost issue... thats one of the reasons the wife and I moved back to the south.... everbody ("progressives") knowing whats right. Yes, I did shut my dog in my camper in the shade on a 68 degree day for thirty minutes lady, and no I don't feel bad about it..... But I know there are lots of real down to earth west coasters out there, but man, some opinions are out there too.


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## woodguy105 (Sep 2, 2008)

I took GOL- 1 a beginners course a couple of years ago.Great course for me... Besides the whole bore cut thing, I learned an awful lot about judging trees and general safety in the woods. It gave me confidence but also increased my respect for chainsaws and the power of a falling tree.

I also enjoy reading and re reading The Fundamentals of General Tree Work by Jerry (G.F.) Beranek. along with other books on the subject ( mind you there are HUGE trees in that book).

Speaking for myself, a home heating wood cutter who fells a few good sized oaks a year... I want to know lots of ways to do things. If it means roping off, using a wedge (s) or whatever. As long as I make in for dinner in one piece.


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## Moss Man (Sep 5, 2008)

Two words....bore cut


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## joesawer (Sep 5, 2008)

Moss Man said:


> Two words....bore cut




Two words come to mind......... But they are not nice, so I will leave them unsaid.
Any one who tries to use a bore cut for more than ocassional heavy leaners is not even a rookie in my book.


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## Moss Man (Sep 5, 2008)

joesawer said:


> Two words come to mind......... But they are not nice, so I will leave them unsaid.
> Any one who tries to use a bore cut for more than ocassional heavy leaners is not even a rookie in my book.




In the CPL class here, the bore cut is used for more than the leaners. Just repeating what I was taught. Actually I am *less* than a rookie tree feller, I'm the fella that processes them into firewood after they are felled by professionals!

Speak your two words, it'll take more than that to bother me my friend.


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## joesawer (Sep 6, 2008)

Moss Man said:


> In the CPL class here, the bore cut is used for more than the leaners. Just repeating what I was taught. Actually I am *less* than a rookie tree feller, I'm the fella that processes them into firewood after they are felled by professionals!
> 
> Speak your two words, it'll take more than that to bother me my friend.





Rep to you for being a good sport!
Your statement is a prime example of what bothers me about this whole bore cut trend.
It is being taught as a way to make a hinge that you are completely committed to, then trip the tree. There is no way to read what the tree is doing or needs as you create the hinge. Imo it is a crutch to cover poor skills. Not to mention it is slow, overly complicated, and generally ineffecient. But it is really "cool" and "trendy" and has a lot of "Wow" factor.


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## rbtree (Sep 6, 2008)

joesawer said:


> Rep to you for being a good sport!
> Your statement is a prime example of what bothers me about this whole bore cut trend.
> It is being taught as a way to make a hinge that you are completely committed to, then trip the tree. There is no way to read what the tree is doing or needs as you create the hinge. Imo it is a crutch to cover poor skills. Not to mention it is slow, overly complicated, and generally ineffecient. But it is really "cool" and "trendy" and has a lot of "Wow" factor.



roger that!!! First heard about bore cutting danged near every tree from the Arbormaster training guys who are east coast based..... thought it was a total waste of time, and made little or no sense---and still do.

Oh, and the same goes for 70-90 degree open faces. I'm an arborist, not a logger/faller, but do cut a few trees, and seldom bother with cutting anything over 60 degrees...and 30-45 is more common. We did want this tree to stay on the stump and not deviate more than a foot from its gun, as the consequences of it being off would have been, uhh, rather bad....2/3 of the way through the video, for those of you who haven't seen it:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L2wMdGPEPfc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L2wMdGPEPfc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## slowp (Sep 6, 2008)

I am Not No WAY no how a faller, but I work with and around them. There is one kind of cut, that nobody talks about, and that I've been told is the way a problem tree is going to be cut, and that is, ".....then I'm going to run like hell." It seems that the run like hell cut is used every once in a while and planned for with escape routes groomed or an excellent already existing escape route. Does the GOL teach the run like hell method? And don't talk about bringing in equipment. It isn't an option on steep ground, or in the road right of way on steep ground. In fact, I didn't mark a big bear trap once because I figured they'd want to pull it over when building the road, and the head cutter got me and insisted I mark it. He then "Cut a little on this side, cut a little on that side, ...and ran like hell." I always find myself thinking, "Please don't stumble or trip either."

Escape routes....don't forget them. And have a big bag of tricks. And be nice to the sale administrator. I think she's had too much coffee this morning.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 6, 2008)

No, no run like hell in GOL. they only do the 15' careful 45 degree escape route. But as in all things in life, there are exceptions. But, yes, definately a technique. Hmmm, like say if there's 2 trees leaning in the one you're cutting (hopefully you didn't put there yourself). Or say a whole top ancient hanger in the tree you're cutting. Sometimes a whole old hanger stradling the tree your cuttting and the one behind you. Yeah, I'd say in my experience its usually with big hangers already in there that make you do the run like hell approach.

Then there's the what the hell is this tree gonna do situation. For instance, a giant wolfy tree, hollow, huge crown, etc.... You've got to cut it, thats the job. So you have escape route 1a, and 1b, then you have route 1c, in case all hell breaks loose- this escape route could be in the direction of the intended fell, cause nomatter how good you are, there are trees you know are so dangerous that you knwo to expect the unexpected.. And yes, these situations call for attention to details, like checking the boot laces, and a hair bit more escape route grooming, including grooming atleast routes 1 and 1b.

Sometimes these trees cannot be cut. Sometimes one cutter doesn't feel up to it and another will, and the next go round its the other way around. Trust your gut. Don't die.

The worst is when there is basically no way to escape. Like, none. Trapped in a bit of a hole, whether surrounded by rocks, a wierd contour. You could scramble but you'd be better off just really planning the perfect drop cause thats all you can hope for. Last time I tried this situation at the end of the day in the pouring rain was nearly the last time I cut, just cause I didn't want to crawl through the tops to get back there the next day. Better save these for the morning, in good conditions.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 6, 2008)

I read somewhere that most felling accidents were within 15 ft of the tree. So seems to me that "running like hell" once the tree begins to fall is a good idea!

And I am no dummy... I also read that most traffic accidents were within 10 miles of my home. So I moved away from there!


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## GASoline71 (Sep 6, 2008)

rbtree said:


> roger that!!! First heard about bore cutting danged near every tree from the Arbormaster training guys who are east coast based..... thought it was a total waste of time, and made little or no sense---and still do.
> 
> Oh, and the same goes for 70-90 degree open faces. I'm an arborist, not a logger/faller, but do cut a few trees, and seldom bother with cutting anything over 60 degrees...and 30-45 is more common. We did want this tree to stay on the stump and not deviate more than a foot from its gun, as the consequences of it being off would have been, uhh, rather bad....2/3 of the way through the video, for those of you who haven't seen it:



David Stice is one of the best timber fallers on the planet in my book. "Nice Guy Dave" ranks right up there with Gerry Beranek. Simply amazing some of the fallin' jobs he has done here...

Good vid and great post Dodger...

Gary


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## oldirty (Sep 6, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> David Stice is one of the best timber fallers on the planet in my book. "Nice Guy Dave" ranks right up there with Gerry Beranek. Simply amazing some of the fallin' jobs he has done here...
> 
> Good vid and great post Dodger...
> 
> Gary





he doesnt know it but mr Beranek is my hero.


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## joesawer (Sep 6, 2008)

slowp said:


> I am Not No WAY no how a faller, but I work with and around them. There is one kind of cut, that nobody talks about, and that I've been told is the way a problem tree is going to be cut, and that is, ".....then I'm going to run like hell." It seems that the run like hell cut is used every once in a while and planned for with escape routes groomed or an excellent already existing escape route. Does the GOL teach the run like hell method? And don't talk about bringing in equipment. It isn't an option on steep ground, or in the road right of way on steep ground. In fact, I didn't mark a big bear trap once because I figured they'd want to pull it over when building the road, and the head cutter got me and insisted I mark it. He then "Cut a little on this side, cut a little on that side, ...and ran like hell." I always find myself thinking, "Please don't stumble or trip either."
> 
> Escape routes....don't forget them. And have a big bag of tricks. And be nice to the sale administrator. I think she's had too much coffee this morning.




Good point. The run like hell method is a viable option, if it is part of the plan before the tree is cut. If it is an option after something goes wrong, it is often too late. Twice in my life I have tried the run like hell technique after things went wrong. It didn't work either time. I was fortunate to avoid serious injury or death.
I want to see some one use the bore cut on trees like these. These where both fell away from thier lean.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 6, 2008)

Even in the rare run like hell routine, 9 times out of 10 or more, still using the bore cut, cause its heavy topped hardwood, and the tree isn't starting to fall till your really in position to escape. No reason you couldn't bore any of those, but you don't need too cause they're still pretty straight up and down. Just different timber. but looks like good work!


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## slowp (Sep 7, 2008)

A guy who helps train Class C--Over 24 inches dbh, fallers cut this. I believe it may have been a run or at least saunter like hell tree. I wasn't there but here is one escape path. There was another path going the other way too.






Here is the aftermath. The snag was 11 feet dbh.


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## 10roadkill (Sep 7, 2008)

If I caught ant of my guys making cuts like that I'd hit them with saw.


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## Gologit (Sep 7, 2008)

10roadkill said:


> If I caught ant of my guys making cuts like that I'd hit them with saw.



What do you see as being wrong with it? Just curious.


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## slowp (Sep 7, 2008)

10roadkill said:


> If I caught ant of my guys making cuts like that I'd hit them with saw.



The guy who cut it did it on his own volition. He's one of the excellent former old growth experts still cutting--as a part time job in his case. He knows what he's doing. How would you get it down? Explosives?


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## smokechase II (Sep 7, 2008)

*Run like heaven*

*"I read somewhere that most felling accidents were within 15 ft of the tree. So seems to me that "running like hell" once the tree begins to fall is a good idea!"*

-----------------

The C faller training the Forest Circus got started circa 1978 after a learning cutter cut off holding wood, ran like hell, didn't watch the tree and was killed 72 feet from the stump.

So may I make a correction and suggest a minimum of *75 feet*, just to be safe?

------------------

I honestly can't tell what the cuts were that SlowP has pictured.

John POllman is the best cutter/teacher combination I have ever been around.


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## joesawer (Sep 8, 2008)

Smokechase, I agree, trying to out run a falling tree after things go wrong is a losers game. Kind of like Russian Roulette.

10roadkill-What cuts are you referring too? If you try to hit me with a saw, you better do it from behind and make it count.


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## joesawer (Sep 8, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> Even in the rare run like hell routine, 9 times out of 10 or more, still using the bore cut, cause its heavy topped hardwood, and the tree isn't starting to fall till your really in position to escape. No reason you couldn't bore any of those, but you don't need too cause they're still pretty straight up and down. Just different timber. but looks like good work!






On the first tree it would be a real trick to back up far enough to get a 50" bar started in a bore cut. Heck making a horizontal bore cut with a 50" bar is hard enough while standing on the ground. You need to get the bar in the kerf and the saw on the dawgs as soon as possible. Also Steve (the faller) was waiting for me to shift the weight forward with the wedges before he finished cutting it up. It is impossible to shift the weight with wedges while there is a back strap holding.
On the second tree, it was leaning out over the highway. The only access was the only way for the tree to go. I put a rope in the tree, then cut it up and let it lean back against the rope. Then I climbed out of the hole directly in front of the face cut, and had my helper pull it over when I was clear. 
The ground was so steep that the tree shot back down the hill when it hit the ground and would have speared the road below if I had not tied off the pull rope in order to catch it.


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