# My bought cord



## smokee (Nov 21, 2012)

While waiting for all my newly cut wood to season I had to buy a cord to burn now. I ended up paying $200 for "mixed hardwood". it's mostly oak but was wet from what seems like being on the ground and had a lot of crud mixed in. I'm not sure about the quantity as it doesn't work out. The dark stack is it and is 4' high and 20' at the bottom. The pieces are 15"-16" in length.


----------



## kyle1! (Nov 21, 2012)

You were shorted so I would be calling back. 128 cubic ft is a cord and you have 120 cubic ft at best going off exactly 20ft at the bottom. Should be a tight rectangle and you have space on each end.

Brian


----------



## srb08 (Nov 21, 2012)

A cord is 4'x4'x8'= 128 cu ft
If your stack is 4'x20'x1.3', you have 104 cu ft.
With the taper on each end, you have about 3/4 of a cord.
He owes you $50.


----------



## stihly dan (Nov 21, 2012)

srb08 said:


> A cord is 4'x4'x8'= 128 cu ft
> If your stack is 4'x20'x1.3', you have 104 cu ft.
> With the taper on each end, you have about 3/4 of a cord.
> He owes you $50.



YUP. Plus the remander of the wood. Should not have tried to pull a fast one.


----------



## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2012)

I figure you have less than ¾ cord there.

If the bottom row is 20-feet, using line percentage, that would make the top row 15.5-feet long. So if the stack was squared up on the ends, your stack would be 17-feet 9-inches long, by 4-feet high, by 15.5-inches wide (average).

So… converting everything into inches…
(213 long) x (48 high) x (15.5 wide) = 158,472 cubic inches.

There are 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot… so…
158,472 / 1728 = *91.7 cubic feet*... not quite 72% of a cord.

If the agreement was $200.oo for a cord of firewood… I believe I’d be lookin’ for at least $50.oo in refund. “Wet” firewood is also an issue I’d be quite perturbed with.


----------



## Toddppm (Nov 21, 2012)

So are you sure the average is 15-16" , cause an extra 3-4" will have it come out just right. I'm so glad I don't sell firewood anymore.....


----------



## Jere39 (Nov 21, 2012)

If you are stuck, and need some ready to burn red oak, and can drive to Chester County with a truck, I will make you whole in the spirit of Thanksgiving.






Sorry, crummy iPhone picture, but it's dark now, so I used this one I had.

View attachment 263475


----------



## Mac88 (Nov 21, 2012)

Jere39 said:


> If you are stuck, and need some ready to burn red oak, and can drive to Chester County with a truck, I will make you whole in the spirit of Thanksgiving.



It don't get any better than that. :msp_thumbsup:


----------



## Ductape (Nov 21, 2012)

Jere39 said:


> If you are stuck, and need some ready to burn red oak, and can drive to Chester County with a truck, I will make you whole in the spirit of Thanksgiving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Santa comes early !


----------



## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> *So are you sure the average is 15-16" , cause an extra 3-4" will have it come out just right. I'm so glad I don't sell firewood anymore.....*



Not quite, they would have to average 21¾-inches to make a full cord... that's 6¼-inches longer.
Not that I'm nit-pickin' or anything  ... just sayin'.


----------



## srb08 (Nov 21, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Not quite, they would have to average 21¾-inches to make a full cord... that's 6¼-inches longer.
> Not that I'm nit-pickin' or anything  ... just sayin'.



Or he could, using the water displacement method, measure each piece individually, total all of the pieces and know exactly how much is there. 
He would need to seal each piece completely to keep it from absorbing any water.
This is a little labor intensive but it's a small price for the OP to pay to satisfy our curiosity.


----------



## Philbo (Nov 21, 2012)

I'd be a little upset with this deal...3/4 ish of a cord and is wet for $200?

I just sold a full cord of all honey locust cut to custom smaller pieces delivered for $200 (granted, this was to a good friend in need, but still...)

If the price includes delivery and stacking then I wouldn't even think about handing over the full amount until it was stacked and measured. Then adjust the price accordingly once you actually know how much you have. It also helps to clarify up front if by a cord they mean exactly 128 cu ft.

The wet wood thing...could just be some surface moisture on the outside of the wood from being rained on recently, which will dry quickly if sunny out, but if actually still wet, as in not completely seasoned, well that's probably the only reason you bought this firewood in the first place is because you needed something _now_ that was fully seasoned. 

I'd call the seller and complain a bit personally...Was this someone who is selling firewood full-time as a business? Poor form...

One thing I've found is that locust (honey and black) that is already dead (standing or downed) doesn't need much seasoning time at all from when it's split. More so than any other wood I've come across...should be some locust around you that you might be able to find for free.


----------



## RVALUE (Nov 21, 2012)

Is their a problem with _wet_ wood?


----------



## smokee (Nov 21, 2012)

First off, thank you very much for the offer Jere39! I really appreciate it! I'm going to call on Friday but I'm expecting the usual attitude. lol. I did call about having some Poplar mixed in... I found about a dozen pieces which were on the top. He said he'd make good on any soft wood that was in there and there wasn't enough to bother with.

Yes, the wood is pretty wet. I've noticed a greasy film on the latch of the door that wasn't there prior to burning it so I assume my new liner's looking similar. The wood is well season and it seems to be a surface "wet" but some look like they were on a wet ground and it soaked in pretty well. 

I measured every piece on the top and the average was 14.5". Very few were 16", a lot were 14". I'm certainly not trying to be a PITA or nit pick. I think $200 was relatively pricy compared to a lot of prices I got. I've burned maybe 10 pieces so far but it seems a lot shorter than 10 pieces.

Thanks for the input, fellas. I'll post the outcome of my call.


----------



## Fred Wright (Nov 21, 2012)

Yup, you got a short load. A single row of roughly 16" splits, 20' in length should stack 6' in height to get you close to a cord. I'd suggest calling the seller to make it right.

Dirt and crap on the splits can come from being loaded off the ground by a loader or dozer. It's a hassle but won't hurt anything. 

Last year, we were in your shoes... had the stove installed and had started cutting our own but had to buy wood that first year. Ordered and paid for 2 cord, fully seasoned. What we got was 1.5 cord of partially seasoned, dirty wood. Several splits were too long or too large to fit in the stove.

When I've got to cut and split firewood that we paid for a delivery already cut and split... and the stuff sets there and smolders in the stove, can't get it to burn to save my soul, well, that gets my dander up. 

It won't matter after this winter, my compadre.


----------



## smokee (Nov 21, 2012)

Sorry if I'm losing focus... I changed my avatar last night and, damn, Mila Kunis is smoking.

Back to our regularly scheduled conversation.


----------



## flyboy553 (Nov 21, 2012)

I am going to take a wild guess and say that there were probably other ads with firewood for sale that were higher priced. But you went with price instead of quality? I mean, what seller wouldn't say his firewood is dry! If he is in for the one time sale, anyway.

The OP's situation is exactly why I do things the way I do:
1. I stack each cord of wood in my yard, 4.25 ft tall, 16 inches wide and 24 ft long, a fence post every 8 ft(1/3cord sections). That way I know there is over a cord of wood going to the buyer. Almost all new customers will make a comment about how much more wood they are getting than the last person they bought from. 
2. I use a moisture meter. People ask if my wood is seasoned. I explain to them that more important than seasoned wood is DRY wood. I tell them the MC of my wood and how it is better to know that, than if it is seasoned or not.
3. I charge more than a lot of sellers, because my wood is worth the extra money. Those who sound hesitant, I tell them to come and take a look at the exact wood they will get, and if they would like, they can take some home and try it out before buying. Of those who have indeed came out and looked at the wood, not one of them has taken some home to try first!

Ted

Dang it, I just read your later post where you said there were others cheaper! Dag nabbit, foiled again! Sorry for my rant now! lol


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 21, 2012)

I also calculate 3/4 of a cord.

(Bottom length = 20', Top length = ~15', Height = ~4', total face area a bit over 71 sq feet) multiplied by 1.33', gives you almost 96 cubic feet, or 3/4 of a cord. Math rocks.

Your experience is almost exactly like the one I had a few years back - got shorted on a purchased load, and didn't figure it out until a couple of months later when I stacked it. That experience has led to a long downward spiral of buying saws, woodboogering, and loitering around this AS website. 

My life is a wreck.

(Now I have a Super Splitter too. Heaven help this sinner)


----------



## DavdH (Nov 21, 2012)

County weights and measures should fix it up for ya, around here a cord is a cord and if ya short someone look out the county will be after ya. And it will be more like 300-400$. If ya buy it by the load no biggie.


----------



## srb08 (Nov 21, 2012)

smokee said:


> Sorry if I'm losing focus... I changed my avatar last night and, damn, Mila Kunis is smoking.
> 
> Back to our regularly scheduled conversation.



Looks like she had some work done.......God bless her.


----------



## southpaw (Nov 21, 2012)

You were ripped off by this seller and he knew exactly what he was doing to you , very much doubt you are the first he has pulled this on.

You can call back and have more delivered, then confront him and refuse to pay .... now you will have 1 1/2 cords for the price of 1, tell him it's a penalty you charge for people who try and rip you off.

Eye for and eye type thing , I'd be setting this guy straight no doubt about it.....he would be crying like little girl when all was done. Don't settle for being cheated. 

For what it's worth sorry for your situation and very nice of that offer you had from a member to make things good for you.


----------



## Davej_07 (Nov 21, 2012)

Jere39 said:


> If you are stuck, and need some ready to burn red oak, and can drive to Chester County with a truck, I will make you whole in the spirit of Thanksgiving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rep sent, for for being a good egg.

Dave


----------



## cantoo (Nov 21, 2012)

Another good reason why if I ever sell any wood it'll be by the load and not by the cord. I deliver my load for my price, take it over leave it before I hit the dump button. No arguing over the amount of wood then. They can measure my trailer and figure out whatever they want but it's still a "pile" of wood for "x" dollars. If they don't want it I just drive back home with my wood. As far as I know we don't have cord cops around here and I really don't care if I sell it or not.


----------



## smokee (Nov 22, 2012)

flyboy553 said:


> I am going to take a wild guess and say that there were probably other ads with firewood for sale that were higher priced. But you went with price instead of quality? I mean, what seller wouldn't say his firewood is dry! If he is in for the one time sale, anyway.
> 
> The OP's situation is exactly why I do things the way I do:
> 1. I stack each cord of wood in my yard, 4.25 ft tall, 16 inches wide and 24 ft long, a fence post every 8 ft(1/3cord sections). That way I know there is over a cord of wood going to the buyer. Almost all new customers will make a comment about how much more wood they are getting than the last person they bought from.
> ...



No, I didn't go cheap on this. I could of went Craigslist and even got some offer here but I already had put the order in last week as I was leaving for bear hunting. I actually paid $205 for the "cord" which was among the higher prices I found. 

I'm not going to flame the place... just yet. My guess is that I'll call and they apologize and offer to make up the difference. Which is fine but if they do this to everyone, how many people know the difference. 

As me and the wife were heading to a party tonight we drove past the place and she pointed it out to me. I didn't realize that's who I bought it from. It's in a prominent place so I'll bet they sell quite a few loads.


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 22, 2012)

srb08 said:


> Or he could, using the water displacement method, measure each piece individually, total all of the pieces and know exactly how much is there.
> He would need to seal each piece completely to keep it from absorbing any water.
> This is a little labor intensive but it's a small price for the OP to pay to satisfy our curiosity.



Nit picking: Nope. Definition of a cord is split and tightly piled (or variations of that) which includes a lot of air space. Your method eliminates all the air space.

Harry K


----------



## blackdogon57 (Nov 22, 2012)

If this guy sells a lot of wood he should have known you were short unless he is in the habit of shorting every customer. I can see being off a few cubic feet being an honest mistake but as others have pointed out your "cord" is under 100 cubic feet. As for the wood being wet it looks well seasoned bit has gotten wet from rain. It should dry out fast if you cover the top. I keep plastic bins next to my stove. Wood that is wet from rain dries out in a day or so when there is a fire going. I hope this guy makes it right for you. Keep us posted.


----------



## mountainmandan (Nov 22, 2012)

Around here almost all firewood sellers are shady. If you are going to buy wood around here you better measure before paying and wait a year.

I actually had a customer want to haggle a little when he called me. When I delivered and stacked he paid me more than I was asking, said it was worth it. Who knows how many times he was ripped off before he called me.

The bad sellers make me look bad too, since I cannot tell you how many times I have heard someone say, "I have got a guy who will do it for $xx." (pick any amount, I have heard it all) And they say it is seasoned. 

Having said all of that, I still will sell all I can cut this year without going bigger. 

I have been out of wood before, and to get wood you need to burn tonight, you have to think small. Where you cut look for dead limbs, dead mullberry, dogwood, and elm, etc. If you need to split it, it will probably be too wet. 

Dan


----------



## Whitespider (Nov 22, 2012)

smokee said:


> *I measured every piece on the top and the average was 14.5". Very few were 16", a lot were 14".*



That "cord" just keeps getting smaller and smaller...
213 x 48 x 14.5 = 148,248 cubic inches
148,248 / 1728 = *85.8 cubic feet*… only 67% of a full cord!

Man, you’re a full 1/3 cord short (a “so-called” face cord)… getting really hard to believe there was any sort of “honest mistake” about this sale and delivery. Just looks to me (as an arm-chair quarterback) like the guy “shorts” every-which-way-he-can… short-cuts, short-stacks, and if it’s wet from being on the ground he shortcuts storage also… hopefully it ain’t wet (green) because of being short-seasoned.

No way trying to tell you how to handle this… but I’d do it face-to-face. I’d want to be looking right at his eyes when I politely registered my complaint(s); a man’s eyes will tell you a lot about who and what he is. If it was, in fact an “honest mistake”, his eyes will let you know right off… if it was an intentional rip-off, you’ll know that right-off also. If I got the gut feeling it was an “honest mistake” I’d just let him make it “right” and life goes on. If I got the gut feeling he was intentionally giving me a screwin’… well, I’d have my demands ready. Most likely I’d be demanding he refund the cash immediately, and I’d give him 24 hours to retrieve the firewood or I’d lay claim to it. I simply will not do business with dishonest people. There are vastly more honest people than dishonest people in this world and life is to short… personally, I try to do as much business as possible with people who still consider a handshake to be a binding contract.

But… like I said… I am “armchair quarterbacking” this.


----------



## Swamp Yankee (Nov 22, 2012)

To the OP, smokee

I have a couple thoughts that may or may not help, coming from someone that's been selling wood for, lets just say longer than I really want to admit.

First, don't assume just because the person sells wood he's lower on the food chain than a six term politician. The seller doesn't read minds, if you don't let him know there's an issue, he can't even begin to try to make it right. This is what I tell all my customers both repeat and new when I deliver. When you speak to him speak with the intent of resolving the issue, not from the attitude of you ripped me off you stupid, worthless piece of scum. If he's legit he'll work with you. Several years ago I unknowingly shorted a customer when I lost count of the number of loads I had delivered on his order. He called, I went to his house, checked the situation, apologized for the shortage, and asked him if he preferred a partial refund or the missing load. As he was happy with the product, I brought the missing load and we were both happy. Mistakes happen, correcting them is part of running a good business.

As to your wood being wet, did you take delivery after Sandy? Last year I got nailed big time by Irene and Alfred as they both blew the tarp(s) off the piles and absolutely soaked what was very nice stove ready wood. I let people know when I delivered about the circumstance and they understood. All wood sellers here in the Northeast were in pretty much the same boat. Some of us were upfront about it, others not. It's really hard to keep wood dry under those conditions. If it's surface moisture put it near the stove for a couple days if possible before use and it will dry out quickly. If it's green well not much you can do short of a kiln. By the way this year when Sandy approached all my tarps were both staked to the ground and tied to trees in the landing / processing area.

I hope all works out for you and wish you a Happy Thanksgiving.

Take Care


----------



## trophyhunter (Nov 22, 2012)

Heck of a business model, every 3-4 loads they get a full cord up on their buyers. That's a scumbag wood seller all the way, and they give credible, honest suppliers a much harder time of ethically practicing their trade. 

That's no mistake being that short, any experienced seller knows what a full cord takes to load and haul for delivery.
They'll have a typical excuse, "Oh sorry that's a new guy doing those deliveries, and or sorry that guy doesn't work here anymore we'll make it right though."

Get weights and measures involved so they stop doing this to people, it's in the interest of credible suppliers in the area and people's hard earned money.


----------



## Big_Al (Nov 22, 2012)

How did the seller deliver the wood? Was it just piled on a truck or stacked up? One reason I like using my trailer, its made from an old stepside Chevy p/u bed. Dimensions are 50" x98" with racks that I can stack to 48". Makes it easy to do a full cord & show the customer if they have any questions. Most are ok with it but have had a couple come out with tape measures. They were happy once they measure it. The seller in this case should make good on it.


----------



## smokee (Nov 22, 2012)

Big_Al said:


> How did the seller deliver the wood? Was it just piled on a truck or stacked up? One reason I like using my trailer, its made from an old stepside Chevy p/u bed. Dimensions are 50" x98" with racks that I can stack to 48". Makes it easy to do a full cord & show the customer if they have any questions. Most are ok with it but have had a couple come out with tape measures. They were happy once they measure it. The seller in this case should make good on it.



Dump truck.


----------



## flyboy553 (Nov 22, 2012)

trophyhunter said:


> Get weights and measures involved so they stop doing this to people, it's in the interest of credible suppliers in the area and people's hard earned money.




The problem I see with this idea is there is no way to prove that all of the wood sold to the buyer is still in the stack. Some could have been burned, hidden, taken somewhere else, whatever. Lots of crooked folk around who would do anything to get one over on the big guy.

Ted


----------



## JimiLL (Nov 22, 2012)

Some of you guys are funny....

The wood in question does look seasoned, the ends of the pieces have turned black. Not sure what the inside looks like though.

Let it sit out for 3-4 sunny days (or more) then cover it before it rains again. Its even a good idea to uncover your wood piles if you have a stretch of good weather. Cold, sunny and windy weather is GREAT for drying out wood!


----------



## smokee (Nov 22, 2012)

Letting it uncovered till just before it rained was what I had in mind. Not too worried about the wetness.

I did just go out and get more detailed measurements. 

I measured all the top pieces (45 total) and the average length was 14.7"

The stack measured 235" across the bottom and 184" across the top. 

I was clearly shorted. 

If the guy doesn't want to make good on the difference I will call Weights and Measures. If he says it was a full cord and there's nothing he's going to do about it, I'll move on. I'm not going to piss and moan, just chock it up as a learning experience. I will let W & M know and they can do what they want.


----------



## trophyhunter (Nov 22, 2012)

That stack does looked aged, no one seems to be disputing that. Smokee got shorted big time on what he agreed to purchase and pay for. Oldest trick in the firewood selling biz to unwary buyers. If he doesn't let them slide it might prevent someone else from being taken, not much worse than a thief or someone that toes the line for one.


----------



## SpiralAcacia (Nov 22, 2012)

JimiLL said:


> Some of you guys are funny....
> 
> The wood in question does look seasoned, the ends of the pieces have turned black. Not sure what the inside looks like though.
> 
> Let it sit out for 3-4 sunny days (or more) then cover it before it rains again. Its even a good idea to uncover your wood piles if you have a stretch of good weather. Cold, sunny and windy weather is GREAT for drying out wood!




JimiLL,

You sure about cold weather good for drying? Intuition says it's warm what helps water content evaporate - no?

SA


----------



## smokee (Nov 22, 2012)

SpiralAcacia said:


> JimiLL,
> 
> You sure about cold weather good for drying? Intuition says it's warm what helps water content evaporate - no?
> 
> SA



I thought the same thing, SA, till I thought about ice cubes that fell behind the bin in the freezer and kept shrinking. Ice does evaporate. Now, the rate at which it does is debatable.

Sorry, I'm spitballing here at the in-laws.


----------



## JimiLL (Nov 22, 2012)

SpiralAcacia said:


> JimiLL,
> 
> You sure about cold weather good for drying? Intuition says it's warm what helps water content evaporate - no?
> 
> SA



actually temp has nothing to do with it....unless its close to 200* :msp_ohmy:

Its more with the relative humidity.... which is typically lower when temps go below freezing.


----------



## srb08 (Nov 22, 2012)

smokee said:


> Letting it uncovered till just before it rained was what I had in mind. Not too worried about the wetness.
> 
> I did just go out and get more detailed measurements.
> 
> ...



Revenge is a dish best served cold.


----------



## shawnw (Nov 22, 2012)

Swamp Yankee said:


> To the OP, smokee
> 
> I have a couple thoughts that may or may not help, coming from someone that's been selling wood for, lets just say longer than I really want to admit.
> 
> ...


This right here is what matters.

P.s. Jere is good people. Both here, and over on MTF


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 22, 2012)

smokee,

There is tons of ads on lancaster craigslist for wood for alot less then $200. You didnt get a very good deal. Get ahold of me earlier next year and i will hook you up with a true cord of good wood.

I have some pieces of cedar i just cut down if your interested for smoking. You can have some if you want. I also have some already in chips that came out of the chipper too.


----------



## smokee (Nov 22, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> smokee,
> 
> There is tons of ads on lancaster craigslist for wood for alot less then $200. You didnt get a very good deal. Get ahold of me earlier next year and i will hook you up with a true cord of good wood.
> 
> I have some pieces of cedar i just cut down if your interested for smoking. You can have some if you want. I also have some already in chips that came out of the chipper too.



You're right, there was some cheaper. My prob is that I'm self-employed and have lost my butt since '07. I have a stack of invoices here that are past due cause of Sandy so I had to buy from someone that would allow me to pay half cash and half credit. No biggie as I don't carry a balance and always pay off. I just needed a little wiggle room till I got paid.

Thank you for the offer as well. I have about 6 cords of cherry here but it was just cut. I should be good for a couple years after this year.


----------



## Encore (Nov 22, 2012)

Dump trucks can be tricky. If a guy doesn't have his wood stacked in pre measured rows before loading it on the truck, you can end up shorted pretty easily. 

That's why I hand stack on my dump truck. People actually end up padded more in their favor but I prefer it that way. 

I agree with the others though that the wood "appears" to be seasoned, if the surface of it is wet, keep it out in the sun for a week and it'll be good to go. 

On the measurement though I'd probably buy from someone else. That guy is not doing you a solid.


----------



## SpiralAcacia (Nov 23, 2012)

JimiLL said:


> actually temp has nothing to do with it....unless its close to 200* :msp_ohmy:
> 
> Its more with the relative humidity.... which is typically lower when temps go below freezing.



Never thought about it this way... I guess it's because here weather is very dry & windy + half the year is HOT... It all dries fast, I thought it was the heat part doing it but it must be the low humidity mostly.

Thanks!

SA


----------



## smokee (Nov 23, 2012)

I got the exact response as that I thought I would - I've lived here long enough to know. He said he won't deal with me anymore and he only makes $45 on a load. He's going to bring out a quarter cord Monday and then I'm done with him. Great first experience! Poor attitude, my fault.... same old, same old. I said that I paid for a full cord, you shorted it and you're not going to deal with me anymore? "Doesn't weights and measures regulate this?" caught his attention and he started back-pedaling. I was nice with no attitude - at first - so that has nothing to do with it. Typical!


----------



## iowa (Nov 23, 2012)

Always inspect and make sure theres the correct amount of wood there before paying in full. I would think these jokers would do it right the first time.


----------



## trophyhunter (Nov 23, 2012)

smokee said:


> I got the exact response as that I thought I would - I've lived here long enough to know. He said he won't deal with me anymore and he only makes $45 on a load. The place is the Mulchnest in Mt Joy, Pa. If you're thinking of buying from them, I'd think twice. He's going to bring out a quarter cord Monday and then I'm done with him. Great first experience! Poor attitude, my fault.... same old, same old. I said that I paid for a full cord, you shorted it and you're not going to deal with me anymore? "Doesn't weights and measures regulate this?" caught his attention and he started back-pedaling. I was nice with no attitude - at first - so that has nothing to do with it. Typical!



Glad to see you held his feet to the fire, you know he does this to anyone he thinks he can get away with doing it to and probably has regular customers that don't know any better.


----------



## smokee (Nov 23, 2012)

I just called back to change the delivery date of the missing wood and he apologized and very sorry for his attitude. We all have bad days and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a hard man to deal with and a little humility goes a long way.


----------



## smokee (Nov 23, 2012)

This is what I got from burning the wet wood. This was brand new last week and I've burned about a wheelbarrow load of the wood that had surface wetness.


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 23, 2012)

smokee said:


> I just called back to change the delivery date of the missing wood and he apologized and very sorry for his attitude. We all have bad days and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a hard man to deal with and a little humility goes a long way.



I don't think he deserves any "benefit of the doubt" The fact he back pedaled after the mention of W&M tells me he shorts everybody.

Harry K


----------



## smokee (Nov 23, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> I don't think he deserves any "benefit of the doubt" The fact he back pedaled after the mention of W&M tells me he shorts everybody.
> 
> Harry K



He said he's never got a call about a shorted load. I said that perhaps the people he's selling to don't know exactly how much is in a cord. lol. I let him know it's here for him to come and take a look at. I also gave him the measurements of the stack and the average length of the pieces.


----------



## artbaldoni (Nov 23, 2012)

Do you think _he_ knows what a cord of wood really is?


----------



## Fred Wright (Nov 23, 2012)

smokee said:


> He said he's never got a call about a shorted load. I said that perhaps the people he's selling to don't know exactly how much is in a cord. lol. I let him know it's here for him to come and take a look at. I also gave him the measurements of the stack and the average length of the pieces.



This seller is a bullchit merchant. Don't let him BS you.


----------



## smokee (Nov 23, 2012)

*What's your take on the mess at the top of chimney*

Is that mess all around my chimney top normal?


----------



## howellhandmade (Nov 23, 2012)

smokee said:


> Is that mess all around my chimney top normal?



Maybe if you're burning railroad ties. I've never had anything like that, but I've always burned wood that I knew was seasoned.


----------



## trophyhunter (Nov 24, 2012)

smokee said:


> Is that mess all around my chimney top normal?



That was all from a wheel barrow load of that bought cord? That was some fine looking workmanship on your part that all got turned into a sticky creosote mess. 

I can't imagine a freshly cut and split oak being burned in such a small quantity making that much of a mess, unless the flue temps were really low. That is not a situation that can be let to go on like that, big time chimney fire waiting to happen. 

Let that stove rip and get hot before reducing the air intake, I have become a firm believer in tossing the old thermometers and using what you see going on through the doors and the heat you feel in these new EPA reburn stoves. It seems to me they are designed to operate properly at significantly higher temperature than what could be gotten by with on older stoves. 

The reburn on both of mine are pretty much no where to be found much under 500*, and I observe a similar trait in stoves belonging to friends.


----------



## Dan_IN_MN (Nov 24, 2012)

Jere39 said:


> If you are stuck, and need some ready to burn red oak, and can drive to Chester County with a truck, I will make you whole in the spirit of Thanksgiving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





smokee said:


> This is what I got from burning the wet wood. This was brand new last week and I've burned about a wheelbarrow load of the wood that had surface wetness.



That's from WET WOOD! I'd take Jere39 up on his offer! Perhaps he'd trade a load of your freshly cut wood for some of that nice dry oak?! His offer is a great one!


----------



## Uncle John (Nov 24, 2012)

artbaldoni said:


> Do you think _he_ knows what a cord of wood really is?



I wouldn't doubt half the wood sellers don't know how to measure a cord.

Around here they like to sell by the rick!


----------



## Kevin in Ohio (Nov 24, 2012)

smokee said:


> Is that mess all around my chimney top normal?



From my experience you're going to get that in varying amounts EVEN if your wood is dry. Naturally wet wood makes it worse but I've had wood that was stored inside on a concrete floor do the same. Some of what your dealing with is temperature inversion. Hot air coming up the stack hits your metal reverse funnel which is being cooled be outside air. It is not always just creosote, Sometimes it's the water just "washing" the underside of the funnel. 

All my wood is stored inside, even when moved to the boiler as it's inside as well. I notice differences on how much inversion happens from the outside air conditions. When there is a lot of moisture in the air, such as when the snow starts melting it gets worse. If your stove is ramping up or down it happens some there too. 

I gave up on having a cap because of the drips and such. I take mine off when I fire the stove up in the Fall and put it back on when I shut it down. problem solved.

I've noticed too that you can have "dry" wood that will sizzle even after being stored inside on dry concrete for 5 plus years. Wood will go up and down in moisture content due to atmosperic conditions to some extent. Granted our barns aren't sealed and insulated but f they were you'd probably have water dripping off the roof while it dries. Open enough to get good ventilation for drying and moisture escape.

I've seen extreme cold with high winds where you can get those drips to start freezing on the backside of the stack. Makes nice creosote frozen mess.


----------



## capetree (Nov 24, 2012)

Well at least he brought you wood to make up the short. The difference in his stacked mesurement to yours could be 10% +/- since a cord includes air space. So you could get a extra 12.8 cubic feet or be short.So a cord could be 115.2 cubic feet to 140.8. Also the loose measurement here in Ma. is 175 cubic feet (6.5 yards). To caculate measurement I had a construction master calculator now I have a measure master pro for my iphone. I do sell about 120+ cords of wood a year all stacked before delivered. Sometimes your in a hurry and wood is stacked very sloppy so you get more air than you should. We have gotten short complaints in the past and I always go back and measure there stack and make good if need be. Ive seen wood stacked with almost no air space (like a puzzle) which will be less than 128 cubic foot, with no air space I think is more like 90 cubic feet of actual wood. Ive even had a trucker show up at my yard with a 100yd trailer (15 cord full) trying to sell me 20 cords. I did nicely explain to him I would buy load and when he came with would measure trailer and if was less than 20 cord he would be heading back wiht the load. Needless to say Ive never seen him again. 

Also around here all wood is suppost to be sold with a receipt that declairs company name, amount of wood, what type of wood. If they dont give a receipt that should be a red flag. You always can get a plate # of vehicle to help identify seller. Beware of fly by night sellers. After storms around here we get a lot of wood pirates. We call them this season firewood since they dont ever seem to get repeat customers.


----------



## smokee (Nov 24, 2012)

manyhobies said:


> That's from WET WOOD! I'd take Jere39 up on his offer! Perhaps he'd trade a load of your freshly cut wood for some of that nice dry oak?! His offer is a great one!




The wood has dried considerably since I got it. The seller said it was on the ground. The buildup had hardened and no longer was liquid.


----------



## ericjeeper (Nov 24, 2012)

*Temps were in the fifties last week yes?*

Wait til we get cold weather, that drip will be gone.. Even seasoned wood will ooze when you have the air dampened back.


----------



## smokee (Nov 25, 2012)

Im going to need to study up, I don't think I've been running it hot enough. I read a suggestion in the owners manual that it should be running around 500*. I guess there's some sort of thermometer I can set on the top? Any suggestions? Will an IR therm work?


----------



## trophyhunter (Nov 25, 2012)

Smokee the stove will show you when it's running hot enough, you can't miss the reburn kicking in from the tubes over the fire. Your right on operating temp, these things are a different animal compared to older stoves and they need to burn hotter. 

The fun part is, they will burn hotter and much longer on a fuel load once you get the burning cycle down.


----------



## sb47 (Nov 25, 2012)

Here is the thing: where I sell firewood very few have a firebox that can except a 24” log.
For that reason I try to cut my wood to around 20” and my stacks are 4’x16’x20”
And technically it’s not a full cord. But the problem is, it takes just as much work and fuel and wear and tear to cut and split 20” pieces as it does to cut and split a 24” piece.
Therefore I charge the same for a 20” cord as I would a 24” cord.

Same goes with a 16” cord, my 16” cords are not the same as a 20” or a 24” cord. In a 16” cord you get 3 rows instead of the 2 8’ rows in a 20” or 24” cord. But the price in a 16” cord is higher then the price on a 20/24. More splitting is more work and my work is worth money, just like anyone else.

I explain this to my customers and they have no problem with it. and I think its because I’m honest about it and when I explain the reason why, they all seem to understand. 

I do have some 24” cords for those that can use it, but out of 200+ cords sold in the last 2 years, I have only had about 3 people want 24” wood.

Woods is cheap and I could care less if the pieces are 24” or not. The amount of work involved is the same, so I price accordingly.

Now if you asked for 24” pieces and you got 18/20 then you were shorted.
If the seller told you the pieces were shouter then 24” and said the stack was 4x16 then you as a buyer should know the deference.

Buyer beware, applies to wood just like anything else. Know your product and make sure you have the facts so you can make a sound decision.

So in other words you’re not just paying for the wood, you’re also paying for the labor to process it.

If it takes me 1 hour to split 1 cord of 24’ pieces, (2 rows of 24” pieces 4’x4x8’. Then it would take 1 ½ hours to process 3 rows of 16” pieces to make a 4x4x8 stack.

Both are full cords but one took longer to process then the other. So you have to price according to the work plus the amount of wood.

It’s not my fault you have a small firebox, shorter wood takes more work. You wouldn’t do half again the work for the same money? So why would you think I would?


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 25, 2012)

sb47 makes a good point: the firewood description should include both the total volume and the size of the individual pieces. 

IMHO, anything offered for sale that the buyer cannot see beforehand should be described in standardized terms: minimum volume, average size of pieces, etc. If I can see something before I buy it, then the burden should be on my shoulders to accurately determine if I want to buy it or not.


----------



## Naked Arborist (Nov 26, 2012)

sb47 said:


> Here is the thing: where I sell firewood very few have a firebox that can except a 24” log.
> For that reason I try to cut my wood to around 20” and my stacks are 4’x16’x20”
> And technically it’s not a full cord. But the problem is, it takes just as much work and fuel and wear and tear to cut and split 20” pieces as it does to cut and split a 24” piece.
> Therefore I charge the same for a 20” cord as I would a 24” cord.
> ...



This pretty much sums it up for firewood we process.\

If I could buy good consistent 20 cord loads of 16" oak I'll stop making firewood for sale and become a distributor only. I sell firewood and you will always get a cord or more but you will pay for it. I'll knock off 40 a cord for 24" and larger split oak firewood. It take a full open face cord of cuts and splits to make it all around 16" as opposed to cutting 24's, nuf said.

The guy stiffed ya, he's a #### head and gave you the left over wet dirty chit wood off the bottom of the pile that went to the regular customers. ####-um stick it to him  :msp_biggrin:


----------



## cantoo (Nov 26, 2012)

sb47, that's exactly the way I would sell wood. Give them the specs and take it or leave it. If you wanna see the wood before you pay for it then fine jump in your car and drive to my house and see the pile, don't expect me to drive to your house for free.


----------



## jerrycmorrow (Nov 26, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> ...I have some pieces of cedar i just cut down if your interested for smoking...



smoking? what kind of smoking you talkin bout? not food? just askin


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 26, 2012)

Cedar plank salmon is good. I wouldn't consider that smoking though.


----------



## jerrycmorrow (Nov 26, 2012)

gtsawyer said:


> Cedar plank salmon is good. I wouldn't consider that smoking though.



okay. i'm relieved, down here smoking with anything but deciduous wood is not only blasphemy, its also purty hard on your food and taste buds. if you can even eat it. wonder if that plank cooking would work on bass?


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 26, 2012)

I agree. Using any coniferous wood for smoking seems to have nasty written all over it. I imagine something like a turpentine taste.


----------



## sb47 (Nov 26, 2012)

cantoo said:


> sb47, that's exactly the way I would sell wood. Give them the specs and take it or leave it. If you wanna see the wood before you pay for it then fine jump in your car and drive to my house and see the pile, don't expect me to drive to your house for free.



Yep: I have my wood stacked in measured stacks so you can see and measure if you like.
If you don’t like what you see, move on and find somewhere else to buy your wood.

I like people that call wanting a cord of wood delivered for a pickup price.
Then they want to balk at a stacking fee.
I charge a basic charge of $30.00 to deliver if you live within 30 miles.
It doesn’t mater if I have one stick of wood or a whole cord. If you live farther then that I charge by the mile.
I’ll stack next to the driveway, right form the trailer for no charge. If I have to wheelbarrow it in the back yard and stack, there is a $25.00 fee.
People need to understand that my time and labor is worth money, just like theirs is.
The thirty dollars for delivery basically just covers my gas. They don’t understand it takes me 30 minuets to load, then an hour drive to there house, another 30 minuets to an hour to unload and stack, plus the hour drive back to the yard, for a total 3 to 4 hours of my time.
55 dollars divided into 4 hours is $13.75 an hour. Minus wear and tear on my truck.
Witch equates to about 10 dollars an hour for my time.
Most the people I deliver to wouldn’t even get out of bed for that kind of money, so I have no problem charging them my price.

I’ve had people call and not like my price. I politely tell them if they change there mind I’ll be here. Most call back after they shop around and find I’m very competitive. If not cheaper then everyone else.

They also wait, knowing there’s a cold front coming, till it’s 30 degrees’ before they call and they want it now.

I run across all kinds.


----------



## sb47 (Nov 26, 2012)

gtsawyer said:


> I agree. Using any coniferous wood for smoking seems to have nasty written all over it. I imagine something like a turpentine taste.



I wonder how many pounds of good meat has been ruined from trying to use the wrong wood?


----------



## treeclimber101 (Nov 26, 2012)

Yea he pretty much gave a #### load , a lot of these guys push that wood around with a loader often in mud and anything else that has leaked outta a machine or truck on the ground , I never machine load wood , and sell people my dirt ! I don't measure loads either I sell it by the load sometimes its more sometimes its less , you agree to that when I am asked to deliver a load . Honestly I wouldn't burn that crap in a metal drum to keep me warm while I split good wood .


----------



## smokee (Nov 26, 2012)

Live and learn. He's bringing me the rest tomorrow and said he was going to hand load it so I don't have all the filth leftover. Take another look at the pic... I have years of freshly cut, beautiful cherry seasoning. I got a little zealous and split a piece to see what the moisture was and it's too high, as I was expecting. Next year and for another few years I'll burn what was growing on the property behind my house. Yes, I got it all. A dozen or so 35 year old cherry trees. Absolutely a work of art (so to speak) in cut, split form. Sweet as honey burning too. 

What was bought has dried well too. I covered it up for a sprinkle the other day then uncovered it to dry. It's actually not that bad of wood...just a little short on the qty. hopefully, it's my last paid wood for a few years.

Thanks for all the feedback, fellas! Good bunch we got here!


----------



## Naked Arborist (Nov 26, 2012)

He right after it gets run over with a loader it is time to leave it to rot. Just nasty filthy stuff to deal with. I burn the half rotten parts from bad tree sections in the barrel while I'm out in the cold weather doing wood. Trust me you don't need holes in the barrel while feeding it Cheetoos


----------



## smokee (Nov 27, 2012)

First day into running it hotter and I can see a huge difference. The fans are kicking on a lot more and the glass buildup's clearing up.


----------



## rullywowr (Nov 27, 2012)

sb47 said:


> They also wait, knowing there’s a cold front coming, till it’s 30 degrees’ before they call and they want it now.
> 
> I run across all kinds.



Looks like the price should go up. Simple supply, demand, and freezing your sack off.:eek2:


----------



## tbow388 (Nov 27, 2012)

*Not knowing if I missed it.*

When you bought this wood did you go and look at it?

Did you ask him if it was a real cord, face cord?

Most people in my neck of the woods think that a "real" cord is 4 feet tall, 16 foot long and 16 inch length which is 66% of a cord.

When I sell wood I tell my customers that I am selling them a face cord for $130 - 4'x16'x16". 
I also give them the opportunity to buy the full standard cord for $190 - 4'x24'x16"


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 27, 2012)

There is a book or two that could be written (probably has, in fact) about standards in weights and measures.

Standards are a good thing, and help avoid lots of issues, but are best for simply accurate communication. This has been chewed over in other threads, but to simply summarize: A cord is 128 cu. feet. A facecord is undefined and meaningless unless described by some other standard measurement - as tbow388 does. Similarly, a rick is undefined, as are the following measurements: pinch, smidgeon, throw, bunch, few, lot, handful, truckload, sprinkle, bag full, rack, skoshe, field, dash, metric butt load, avoirdupois crap load, etc.


----------



## sb47 (Nov 27, 2012)

The time to discuss the details of any sale is before the sale not after.lol


----------



## smokee (Nov 27, 2012)

tbow388 said:


> When you bought this wood did you go and look at it?
> 
> Did you ask him if it was a real cord, face cord?
> 
> ...



I did not see it prior to buying but I did ask if it was a full cord and was told it was. I had this just dropped off.


----------



## smokee (Nov 27, 2012)

sb47 said:


> The time to discuss the details of any sale is before the sale not after.lol



I asked if it was a "full cord" and was told it was. I also asked if it was "not a face cord" and was told it was not. I was shorted. Yes, I could of loaded up the kids and drove over to see what it looked like but, to me, a cord is a cord and can be defined in simple dimensions. When those dims didn't add up I called and was delivered the missing amount. Nuff said.


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 27, 2012)

tbow388 said:


> When you bought this wood did you go and look at it?
> 
> Did you ask him if it was a real cord, face cord?
> 
> ...



Why are you adding yet another odd measure to the mix?. Face cord is accepted as 4'x8"x16". There is ennough confusion without you adding another size of a "face cord".

If you want to use odd measures just sell by "that pile over there".

Harry K.


----------



## cantoo (Nov 27, 2012)

Harry, check your post.. You are changing the size again, you typed 8" not 8 feet. Unless of course you are selling 4 feet x 8 inches x 16 inches as a face cord. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 28, 2012)

cantoo said:


> Harry, check your post.. You are changing the size again, you typed 8" not 8 feet. Unless of course you are selling 4 feet x 8 inches x 16 inches as a face cord. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Well, if he can call 4' x 16' x 16" a face cord, why can't I call a face cord 4' x 8" x 16"? 

Harry K


----------



## Uncle John (Nov 28, 2012)

tbow388 said:


> When you bought this wood did you go and look at it?
> 
> Did you ask him if it was a real cord, face cord?
> 
> ...



I thought what people call a face cord was 4' x 8' x whatever length.

16" = 1/3 cord 

But you could cut the length to 14" or 12' and still call it a face cord.

Around here they sells "ricks." And some peoples ricks are smaller than others!


----------



## mking7 (Nov 28, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> Why are you adding yet another odd measure to the mix?. Face cord is accepted as 4'x8"x16". There is ennough confusion without you adding another size of a "face cord".
> 
> If you want to use odd measures just sell by "that pile over there".
> 
> Harry K.



Around here nobody sells real cords that I've found. The ones that brag about selling REAL cords are selling 4x16xlog length. Log length varies quite a bit but usually 16-18". Heck I answered a Craigslist ad once asking what the dimensions of a cord was to them. The reply? "Heck, I don't know. I always thought it was a pickup load."


----------



## Marc (Nov 28, 2012)

mking7 said:


> Around here nobody sells real cords that I've found. The ones that brag about selling REAL cords are selling 4x16xlog length. Log length varies quite a bit but usually 16-18". Heck I answered a Craigslist ad once asking what the dimensions of a cord was to them. The reply? "Heck, I don't know. I always thought it was a pickup load."



Apparently, not _everything_ is bigger in Texas.


----------



## tbow388 (Nov 28, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> Why are you adding yet another odd measure to the mix?. Face cord is accepted as 4'x8"x16". There is ennough confusion without you adding another size of a "face cord".
> 
> If you want to use odd measures just sell by "that pile over there".
> 
> Harry K.



Hey, I learned something new today. Thanks Harry. I had assumed that a Face Cord was 4'x16'x16" (The face of a cord)

Definitely good to know that I have been wrong so I can be more correct.

What exactly would you call 4'x16'x16"?


----------



## tbow388 (Nov 28, 2012)

*Then You are right*



smokee said:


> I did not see it prior to buying but I did ask if it was a full cord and was told it was. I had this just dropped off.



If he sold you a full cord and did not deliver then you have every right to ask him to make it right and he needs too.


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 28, 2012)

tbow388 said:


> Hey, I learned something new today. Thanks Harry. I had assumed that a Face Cord was 4'x16'x16" (The face of a cord)
> 
> Definitely good to know that I have been wrong so I can be more correct.
> 
> What exactly would you call 4'x16'x16"?



2/3 of a cord.


----------



## mking7 (Nov 28, 2012)

gtsawyer said:


> 2/3 of a cord.





Or 2 face cords..


----------



## tbow388 (Nov 28, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> Well, if he can call 4' x 16' x 16" a face cord, why can't I call a face cord 4' x 8" x 16"?
> 
> Harry K



Harry, Simple answer to that. You can't because you know it all and I obviously don't.

I do say thanks for teaching me something though.

Tim B


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 28, 2012)

Uncle John said:


> I thought what people call a face cord was 4' x 8' x whatever length.
> 
> 16" = 1/3 cord
> 
> ...



True that. "Face Cord" by itself is an undefined measure but commonly accepted as 4' x 8'. To have any meaning at all it needs the "width" (length of stick) added.

Why people insist on using such vague terms is beyond me. What is wrong with "cord" or 'fraction of cord". In the current instance had he said "2/3 cord" vice "face cord" every body would have known instantly how much it was.

As for "rick" technically it can be as little as 3 sticks up to and including an infinity. I sometimes wonder if the minimum could even be 2 sticks.

Harry K


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 28, 2012)

mking7 said:


> Or 2 face cords..



If you want to be obstinant and not use legal measure.

Harry K


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 28, 2012)

tbow388 said:


> Hey, I learned something new today. Thanks Harry. I had assumed that a Face Cord was 4'x16'x16" (The face of a cord)
> 
> Definitely good to know that I have been wrong so I can be more correct.
> 
> What exactly would you call 4'x16'x16"?



Well, you _are_in a semi-professional forum, some would call it "professional". Use non-standard, undefined terms expect to be called on it.

Harry K


----------



## mking7 (Nov 28, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> If you want to be obstinant and not use legal measure.
> 
> Harry K



That was tongue in cheek a bit but you said yourself that 4x8 is commonly accepted a 'face cord'. I'm going to start using gills as my unit of measure for volume of firewood going forward. Just can't decide between US and Imperial gills.


----------



## shawnw (Nov 28, 2012)

mking7 said:


> That was tongue in cheek a bit but you said yourself that 4x8 is commonly accepted a 'face cord'. I'm going to start using gills as my unit of measure for volume of firewood going forward. Just can't decide between US and Imperial gills.


What type of fish?


----------



## Uncle John (Nov 28, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> True that. "Face Cord" by itself is an undefined measure but commonly accepted as 4' x 8'. To have any meaning at all it needs the "width" (length of stick) added.
> 
> Why people insist on using such vague terms is beyond me. What is wrong with "cord" or 'fraction of cord". In the current instance had he said "2/3 cord" vice "face cord" every body would have known instantly how much it was.
> 
> ...



Some just dont know any better. Some use vague terms so they can sell 3 cords and get paid for 4.


----------



## turnkey4099 (Nov 29, 2012)

mking7 said:


> That was tongue in cheek a bit but you said yourself that 4x8 is commonly accepted a 'face cord'. I'm going to start using gills as my unit of measure for volume of firewood going forward. Just can't decide between US and Imperial gills.



I suspected that  Please use imperial gill if sellign to me. I can get more booze into one. 

True it _is_ the accepted size of a face cord but using face cord is frowned upon as it is not a legal measure. Many states specifically state in the regs that it is not to be used....oops, guess I already said that once. Do much reading of posts here and it won't be long before you see the confusion that arises when it is used...and also when someone claims "I cut x-cords" and then we find he was using 'face cord' as being a cord. 

I'm getting a bit crotchity in my old age and you hit me in one of my pet peeves . Sorry if I came off a bit rough. 

Harry K


----------



## treeclimber101 (Nov 30, 2012)

Well this is what I sell for 190.00 , not measured hand thrown but good clean wood View attachment 264900


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 30, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Well this is what I sell for 190.00 , not measured hand thrown but good clean wood View attachment 264900



I'm pretty sure that's 1.37 metric Gills worth.


----------



## treeclimber101 (Nov 30, 2012)

gtsawyer said:


> I'm pretty sure that's 1.37 metric Gills worth.



English please , is that good ???


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 30, 2012)

Irony is a lost art.


----------



## shawnw (Nov 30, 2012)

gtsawyer said:


> Irony is a lost art.


No it's not, you just suck at art :msp_w00t:

Maybe you should try cutting your ear off like Van Gogh


----------



## gtsawyer (Nov 30, 2012)

shawnw said:


> No it's not, you just suck at art :msp_w00t:
> 
> Maybe you should try cutting your ear off like Van Gogh



It's true, I do suck at art. And a lot of other things, to be truthful. However, metric Gill is funny stuff.

I tried to cut my finger off once, but it wouldn't quite come off, so I decided against giving it to anyone.


----------



## smokee (Nov 30, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Well this is what I sell for 190.00 , not measured hand thrown but good clean wood View attachment 264900



Very nice looking wood there! Nice to see wood that I don't have to clean with a brush before I load it too. I'll call u for my next cord, do you deliver to Lancaster, Pa? Lol.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Nov 30, 2012)

smokee said:


> Very nice looking wood there!



:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## turnkey4099 (Dec 1, 2012)

Uncle John said:


> Some just dont know any better. Some use vague terms so they can sell 3 cords and get paid for 4.



The scammer who is the subject of the thread no only shorts his measures but by the length of the sticks. OP says they average around 15". So he gets one extra round every 16th round he cuts. 

customer gets say 3/4 cord in the stack but doesn't realize he is missing 1" on each of the sticks.

OP should have blown the whistle to the W&M people.

Harry K


----------



## artbaldoni (Dec 1, 2012)

This site should have a thread dedicated to wood measure. It could be called "How to measure wood (what is a cord?)" and be permanently affixed to the top of each page. That way the Department of Redundancy Department will not need to get involved and start handing out citations...:taped:


----------



## beerbelly (Dec 1, 2012)

Did you buy a cord, or a "load". I found this on firewoodresource.com. I just cut & pasted so it may have a bit of funk:msp_razz:, but it is interesting: 


Firewood Measurements

There are several different firewood measurements common used in North America. There are full cords, face cords, ricks and now fireplace cords are becoming more common. These different terms and measurements can be confusing to consumers and often leaves them with less wood than they thought they were buying.

Unlike the other measurements, a cord is an actual legally defined volume of wood. In some states firewood is required to be sold by the cord or fraction of a cord. If you want to know how much actual wood you are getting, it should be bought by the cord or fraction of a cord.

Difference Between a Full Cord, Face Cord, Fireplace Cord, Rick
A cord is the only one of these firewood measurements that is an actual amount of wood. A cord of wood is the amount of wood that can be tightly stacked in 128 cubic feet. The most common dimension for this is a stack 4′x4′x8′. This is about 2 full size pickup loads with the wood stacked to the top of the sides. If someone is bringing wood in the back of a full standard size pickup and they are telling you it is a full cord, it better be stacked up close to the height of the top of the cab. If not, it’s probably not a full cord.

Learn more about different dimensions that will add up to a full cord of wood, and how to determine how much wood you have with this firewood calculator.

Face cords, ricks and fireplace cords don’t necessarily tell you how much wood you are getting. These different measurements can mean different things to different people. They are really ambiguous measurements. To some, these are equivalent to 1/3 cord, but not always. Depending on who you talk to, these measurements are the equivalent to a stack of wood 4 feet high and 8 feet long. The problem is, without knowing the length of the pieces and the depth of the stack, you don’t know how much wood you are getting.

So if you buy a face cord. or rick, the dealer can decide how how much wood you get by the length of the pieces. A rick or face cord of shorter pieces will be much less wood than the same stack of long pieces. If the pieces are 16″ long. it would be 1/3 cord. If they were 12″ long it would be 1/4 cord. If the pieces are 24″ long, it would be 1/2 cord.

Or of the pieces are somewhat random, which is probably more common, you really don’t know how much wood you are getting. If you really want to know how much wood you are getting, buy from someone who sells by the cord or fraction of a cord. And make sure when they say cord they are talking about real cords (128 cubic feet) and not face cords or fireplace cords. If they insist on selling by one of these other ambiguous firewood measurements, that is probably a good reason to find someone else.

How much firewood is in a cord?

In any stack of wood there will be air space between the pieces. As a result a cord of wood may only have 70-90 cubic feet of actual solid wood. This varies with the size and shape of the wood and how tightly it is stacked. Wood that is randomly thrown into a pile will have more air space between the pieces and less solid wood per cubic foot than a neatly stacked pile.

To get a full cord of loosely piled wood you will need around 180 cubic feet to make up for the increased space between the pieces. This figure can vary some depending on how loose the pile is so it’s not an exact figure.

Cord vs Chord
Some people spell a cord of firewood chord. A chord is actually a word that refers to a group or musical notes or harmony. Cord is the actual spelling of the firewood measurement. is long, but interesting.


----------



## treeclimber101 (Dec 1, 2012)

smokee said:


> Very nice looking wood there! Nice to see wood that I don't have to clean with a brush before I load it too. I'll call u for my next cord, do you deliver to Lancaster, Pa? Lol.



I am over in New Jersey , and I have limited space to store wood I can only store about 40 cords at one time , and all of my customers usually buy all the wood before February , so I would love to help I am just too far , there are good guys though out your way I am sure of it .


----------



## trimmmed (Dec 1, 2012)

smokee said:


> First off, thank you very much for the offer Jere39! I really appreciate it! I'm going to call on Friday but I'm expecting the usual attitude. lol. I did call about having some Poplar mixed in... I found about a dozen pieces which were on the top. He said he'd make good on any soft wood that was in there and there wasn't enough to bother with.
> 
> Yes, the wood is pretty wet. I've noticed a greasy film on the latch of the door that wasn't there prior to burning it so I assume my new liner's looking similar. The wood is well season and it seems to be a surface "wet" but some look like they were on a wet ground and it soaked in pretty well.
> 
> ...



Call the guy up........order another cord.......let him dump it..........show him the shortage on the first load........deduct from price for second load......also deduct the same percentage from second load in case that's similarly short. If not you can tighten him up for the balance.


----------



## smokee (Jan 15, 2013)

From the WTF files, I just had my second cord delivered and I'm short almost the same amount. 

Average length is 15.5", I have a 17' stack that's 4' high. Bunch of f*****g crooks in this place. I'll bet this guy doesn't return my call.

Forgot to post, this is not the same guy as the first cord.


----------



## trophyhunter (Jan 15, 2013)

Just get a big trailer and come on over and get what you need for the rest of the year, my treat. That aggravation is bad on the heart brother.

You couldn't buy an honest cords worth of seasoned wood here either if your life depended on it. They'd show up with 2.5 wheelbarrow's worth just dredged out of a lake and cut that morning. Nothing but a bunch of thieves and they know it!


----------



## smokee (Jan 15, 2013)

trophyhunter said:


> Just get a big trailer and come on over and get what you need for the rest of the year, my treat. That aggravation is bad on the heart brother.
> 
> You couldn't buy an honest cords worth of seasoned wood here either if your life depended on it. They'd show up with 2.5 wheelbarrow's worth just dredged out of a lake and cut that morning. Nothing but a bunch of thieves and they know it!



Thank you, brother. I appreciate the offer.

This guy brought it out in his pickup bed - 2 trips. The problem is that it was a 4 door pickup and they have a smaller bed. I'd guess maybe 5' - it was a new dodge. I made sure to tell him that I knew exactly how much a cord was, I guess he thought I was BS'ing him. The last thing I said when he was getting ready to leave after unloading it was "Now, that's a full cord?". His response was "should be". 

I'm new to all this but I learn fast. I got the insert cause we had about 15 large cherry trees cut down on some adjacent property, I asked for the wood and they said I could have it. After this cord, which should get us through this winter, we should be able to use our own for the next few years. Just damn disappointing and unnecessary to have to go back and forth to get a "cord" of firewood in this county. I just might call in the Amish Mafia to fix this.


----------



## trophyhunter (Jan 16, 2013)

Well aside from the crooks and getting shorted hows that new stove working out for you and the family, everyone warm and happy?


----------



## tld400 (Jan 16, 2013)

Last year I bought a so called cord of wood while I was waiting on wood to dry. I paid 185 for it and it was nice oak that looked seasoned but he sammed me . I threw some in and the water was just sizzling out of it. I had to re split everything down to 2 to 3 inch wide pieces and put all around stove to dry. It made so much creo. Tryed to get a hold of guy but he never returned my calls. I just dont understand how these guys can stay in business pulling crap like this. Thank god I dont have to buy wood anymore. If you want it right you have to do it yourself.


----------



## Mac88 (Jan 16, 2013)

If I were buying wood (and I don't), I'd make sure I had a good moisture meter in hand. Pull a couple random pieces, split them down the middle, and take a reading with the seller on site. If it didn't pass the they'd be taking it back.


----------



## smokee (Jan 16, 2013)

trophyhunter said:


> Well aside from the crooks and getting shorted hows that new stove working out for you and the family, everyone warm and happy?



We love it, especially the wife. Just got our first full gas bill since installing it and its a little over half what it usually is so there's no complaints. The first cord I bought was filthy so I brushed off each piece as I loaded it into the wheelbarrow. PITA but it kept the firebox and glass cleaner. That turned out to add a ton of time and effort into what should of been an easy job. This load's clean, there's just no enough of it. Overall, it's a great appliance - the wife and kids love it and I'm saving some money. :msp_biggrin:


----------



## Uncle John (Jan 16, 2013)

smokee said:


> From the WTF files, I just had my second cord delivered and I'm short almost the same amount.
> 
> Average length is 15.5", I have a 17' stack that's 4' high. Bunch of f*****g crooks in this place. I'll bet this guy doesn't return my call.
> 
> ...


----------



## mr.finn (Jan 16, 2013)

Smokee, after reading this whole thread sorry to hear about getting shafted..twice. I always hate hearing stuff like this as a firewood seller. I have been doing this a while and know what a cord looks like and that is what I deliver. At least the first guy made it right and delivered the rest, have you called the second guy on the "short" yet. This is what my cord of wood looks like, only the end gets stacked to help keep it on the truck. Never had a complaint about being short.


----------



## Uncle John (Jan 16, 2013)

There are probably firewood sellers that don't know what a cord is!


----------



## mr.finn (Jan 16, 2013)

Uncle John said:


> There are probably firewood sellers that don't know what a cord is!



I will second that. And they give the honest guys a bad reputation.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 16, 2013)

smokee said:


> From the WTF files, I just had my second cord delivered and I'm short almost the same amount.
> 
> Average length is 15.5", I have a 17' stack that's 4' high. Bunch of f*****g crooks in this place. I'll bet this guy doesn't return my call.
> 
> Forgot to post, this is not the same guy as the first cord.



I got 3 cherry logs laying here, that you can have for free. They need to be cut up and split. Probably be a nice pickup load split.


----------



## smokee (Jan 19, 2013)

Well, I haven't heard from the guy in days. He was suppose to stop out and take a look at what I got but never did. I think I'm doing a stop payment on the check and going to let him come out and load it up and take it back.

Here's the specs again: Average length is 15.5", I have a 17' stack that's 4' high. 

If I'm wrong, please let me know. The math doesn't work out for me. Here's a pic too.







What a great way to start in this endeavor. Just can't believe the luck. From now on, the wood will be stacked and accounted for before any money changes hands. I hate to be this way! I tend to give ppl a chance but enough is enough. We'll stack it while u watch. If its short u can bring the remainder or u can load it back up yourself. Don't like it, keep your wood.

I have this wood stacked on 2x3's. 2 side by side and 3 sets long for 24'.


----------



## tld400 (Jan 19, 2013)

Uncle John said:


> There are probably firewood sellers that don't know what a cord is!



Oh I think most know but they are just trying to screw people over. If they beat you by 33 percent of a cord and sold it to 3 people thats 1 extra for them to sell. Acually 1 and a 3rd because the next is going to get 2/3 rds of a cord And so on and so on


----------



## tld400 (Jan 19, 2013)

smokee said:


> Well, I haven't heard from the guy in days. He was suppose to stop out and take a look at what I got but never did. I think I'm doing a stop payment on the check and going to let him come out and load it up and take it back.
> 
> Here's the specs again: Average length is 15.5", I have a 17' stack that's 4' high.
> 
> ...



If he doesnt make good on it like a good business man would find out where his yard is an throw a piece of his wood through his truck window with a mesage on it,saying stop ripping people off dic*


----------



## smokee (Jan 19, 2013)

tld400 said:


> Oh I think most know but they are just trying to screw people over. If they beat you by 33 percent of a cord and sold it to 3 people thats 1 extra for them to sell. Acually 1 and a 3rd because the next is going to get 2/3 rds of a cord And so on and so on



Yah, he knew what he was doing. Said he's been doing this for 27 years and knows what a cord is. I said I've been doing it for 3 months and I know that it's not a full cord. Two 4 door pickup loads thrown in, not stacked. It couldn't of been more than a 5' bed. This is how it goes... I either bend over and be shafted or be the PITA who's going to hover over the seller.


----------



## tld400 (Jan 19, 2013)

smokee said:


> Yah, he knew what he was doing. Said he's been doing this for 27 years and knows what a cord is. I said I've been doing it for 3 months and I know that it's not a full cord. Two 4 door pickup loads thrown in, not stacked. It couldn't of been more than a 5' bed. This is how it goes... I either bend over and be shafted or be the PITA who's going to hover over the seller.



If you or somebody doesnt stop this jackass he will keep ripping off hard working people that pay him good money to sell them a cord of wood. He wont stop to someone rips him a new one or call weights and measures or something. Personaly I dont beleive in calling cops or any other agency. I would rather handle him myself.


----------



## mitch95100 (Jan 19, 2013)

I am by no means a passive person but shooting him wont get you your wood. But some people just don't get it... 20 gal of diesel and his wood pile?

Sent from my USCCADR3305 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tld400 (Jan 20, 2013)

mitch95100 said:


> I am by no means a passive person but shooting him wont get you your wood. But some people just don't get it... 20 gal of diesel and his wood pile?
> 
> Sent from my USCCADR3305 using Tapatalk 2



Yeah I wouldnt shoot him but I might smash his face if it came to that. But the idea is to get even and not go to jail doing it. Thats the last resort. Hopefully he is man and can say he made a mistake even though he knows what he did and give you th rest of your wood plus he should throw some extra in for good measure.


----------



## cantoo (Jan 20, 2013)

Maybe you need to go to the sellers site once and watch him load to make sure he puts the full amount on the trucks? This way you can see how they store and load it. I could see if they just drop everything off the conveyor onto the ground and then just throw it into the truck they could be out by alot. I know myself I sometimes cut limbs to length in the bush and then take it home to stack and that the amounts vary alot. I use a 7x9 flatbed truck and I'm sure the loads would be at least a face cord (oh no he didn't) different from load to load. This is just another reason why I'm a fan of "so many dollars for this pile of wood, take it or leave it". I'm pretty sure he isn't gonna sit there while you stack the wood. That's quite abit to be short but I'll bet you are getting talked about at their yard. I guess it's quite abit different over here or maybe it's just that there isn't very many sellers here. I've bought wood in log form before and after split and piled it's always added up to more than what they say it was. Maybe that's the difference here they always say it's less wood?


----------



## howellhandmade (Jan 20, 2013)

tld400 said:


> If you or somebody doesnt stop this jackass he will keep ripping off hard working people that pay him good money to sell them a cord of wood. He wont stop to someone rips him a new one or call weights and measures or something. Personaly I dont beleive in calling cops or any other agency. I would rather handle him myself.



I don't think that one person can stop a seller from selling short, unless the authorities give a rat's hind end, which I think mostly they don't. A short/wet load of wood isn't worth ANY time in jail. I know there are firewood sellers who are real firewood guys themselves -- they burn wood, they take pride in their product. But a lot of firewood buyers aren't very knowledgeable or critical; anything more than an armload looks like a LOT of wood, they're burning it in a fireplace where it gets lots of air, and it's natural, though regrettable, that sellers exist who take advantage of that. Until most buyers know what a cord of wood is and how it should burn, it will be happy hunting for those who deliver a product like discussed in this thread. I would guess that many sellers who do a good job have standing orders that take care of most of their production, and word of mouth on their product is good enough that they don't advertise much -- so a guy needing wood in a pinch and looking on Craigslist has a greater chance of running into one of the fast and loose sellers. 

Then again, I read posts here about how firewood hasn't been selling because of the weather. Who knows.


----------



## Typhke (Jan 20, 2013)

I see the complexity of the measurements here. It just makes it possible to 'cheat' and deliver less wood than an honest supplier. But when they agree on a cord, it should be a cord. No discussion possible. But not much that you can do against it I think. I'm pretty surprised the 1st supplier brought you some more wood to compensate, maybe just to save his reputation or he does mean it right but just made a mistake.
Imo, a good supplier always delivers a little bit more than the volume he says, doesn't get you into trouble and gets you a good reputation. That's what I try to do. I also post the sizes of the stacked wood when I put it online, if it's a little over a cord, I sell it as a cord. The customers appreciate it and will come back.

The measurement things are also going on here in Belgium. We had a cubic metre, meaning 1m x 1m x 1m. Then we got a 'stère' which is 1m x 1m x 1m because a cubic metre has air in it so it isn't really a cubic metre of pure wood. So if you sell a cubic metre, the volume should be bigger so that it really holds 1 cubic metre of wood + the air. Others say a 'stère' is 1m x 1m x 1m wood in lengths of 1m so a cubic metre of wood is the same size but cut into shorter lengths. Then there is the discussion that the same volume holds more/less long wood than short wood etc. Most over here say that you can stack shorter pieces better so you'll end up with more wood than when you have long pieces. They count at least a 20% difference, more on harder woods (up to 50%)! All sorts of talk to make it complicated, make it hard to see what you are paying and what you are getting. I check the prices in my neighborhood from time to time but it's just getting too hard to see how much they are really selling. 

I got logs recently and they are 20 'stère'. I yet have to see how much stacked wood I can get out of it now before I really know how much I payed. It should be more, but usually it's a little bit less.

I just put my measurements online, my prices. Get it or leave it, but you'll get what I promise you and what you pay for. I hope you can get into contact with your second supplier but I doubt he'll get you the extra wood. Good for you that you can burn your own wood starting next year! Less crap about the quantity and you're sure about the quality! Good luck with it!


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 20, 2013)

is he calling it a cord, or a load. I know alot of people around here sell it by the dump truck load.


----------



## tilenick (Jan 20, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> is he calling it a cord, or a load. I know alot of people around here sell it by the dump truck load.



my brothers landscaping boss does that. he told me what the guy was stacking 16" in pre made 4'x8' ricks and calling two of those a load and selling it at full cord prices for around my area. I told him the guy was ripping people off for a third of a cord and he says when he brought it up to his boss the boss said "that's why i call it a load. they get a load and i know what is going out is the same all the time but it is not a cord." sad. but the guy has repeat business of multiple loads every year. but i think if it is sold as a cord it should darn well be a cord.


----------



## smokee (Jan 20, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> is he calling it a cord, or a load. I know alot of people around here sell it by the dump truck load.



No ambiguity here. I spoke in specific terms asking "this is a full cord, not a face cord", "so, $150 for a full cord of hardwood", "is there any odd pieces of pine or poplar"... I learned a lot from the first cord, just not to not trust anyone when it comes to firewood. 

I see the check was cashed so I'm going to give him a couple days to return my call then I'll call weights and measures just to see what they say. I'm pretty much writing it off.

As far as the delivery goes, the deal will be for me to stack it. If the seller doesn't like that idea I won't buy from them. Too much room for a screwing. I can drive and look at a stack but that doesn't mean that's what they'll load up. There's a dozen ways around delivering a full cord. I have 3 boys and my wife helps, we can stack a cord pretty fast. 

The thing is, after this year I'll by using my own and won't have to buy for quite some time.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 21, 2013)

smokee said:


> No ambiguity here. I spoke in specific terms asking "this is a full cord, not a face cord", "so, $150 for a full cord of hardwood", "is there any odd pieces of pine or poplar"... I learned a lot from the first cord, just not to not trust anyone when it comes to firewood.
> 
> I see the check was cashed so I'm going to give him a couple days to return my call then I'll call weights and measures just to see what they say. I'm pretty much writing it off.
> 
> ...



I would be damned if i would wait for someone to stake a load of wood i dropped off. There isnt that much money in wood, and for me to have to sit there waiting is just rediculas. I wont go calling weight and measures, just take it as a learning experience. I dont know what weight and measures would say, but i have a feeling, they may just laugh at you. Make sure you are there to see the wood delivered. You should be able to tell by the size of the pile if its close to a cord or not when dumped on the ground.


----------



## smokee (Jan 21, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I would be damned if i would wait for someone to stake a load of wood i dropped off. There isnt that much money in wood, and for me to have to sit there waiting is just rediculas. I wont go calling weight and measures, just take it as a learning experience. I dont know what weight and measures would say, but i have a feeling, they may just laugh at you. Make sure you are there to see the wood delivered. You should be able to tell by the size of the pile if its close to a cord or not when dumped on the ground.



I'm sure there'll be some that won't want for their customers to do what they can to assure they got what they paid for. I have a few friends that recently got stoves/inserts and really have no idea exactly how much they should have dumped on their driveway - myself included. I questioned the amount that was there last week and was told "I've been doing this for 27 years and know how much a cord is". So what do you at that point?


----------



## Typhke (Jan 21, 2013)

smokee said:


> I'm sure there'll be some that won't want for their customers to do what they can to assure they got what they paid for. I have a few friends that recently got stoves/inserts and really have no idea exactly how much they should have dumped on their driveway - myself included. I questioned the amount that was there last week and was told "I've been doing this for 27 years and know how much a cord is". So what do you at that point?



Stalk him till you can talk to him, tell him he has been doing it wrong for 27 years? :msp_biggrin:


----------



## flyboy553 (Jan 21, 2013)

smokee said:


> I'm sure there'll be some that won't want for their customers to do what they can to assure they got what they paid for. I have a few friends that recently got stoves/inserts and really have no idea exactly how much they should have dumped on their driveway - myself included. I questioned the amount that was there last week and was told "I've been doing this for 27 years and know how much a cord is". So what do you at that point?




Actually, the best thing to do at that point is to get yourself a trailer and then you go to their place and get the wood yourself. Stack it into your trailer so you know how many cubic feet you are loading, and go from there. If the guy has the wood stacked, you can just measure the stack length width and height and you would know at that point.

I am waiting on a guy to get here this morning to get 2 full cords of rounds. They are stacked @ 50 inches high+/- and 24 ft long, 16" wide. That's a bit over a cord. I always tell my customers I want them to get more than a cord but not 1/8th more. lol

Ted


----------



## smokee (Jan 21, 2013)

flyboy553 said:


> Actually, the best thing to do at that point is to get yourself a trailer and then you go to their place and get the wood yourself. Stack it into your trailer so you know how many cubic feet you are loading, and go from there. If the guy has the wood stacked, you can just measure the stack length width and height and you would know at that point.
> 
> I am waiting on a guy to get here this morning to get 2 full cords of rounds. They are stacked @ 50 inches high+/- and 24 ft long, 16" wide. That's a bit over a cord. I always tell my customers I want them to get more than a cord but not 1/8th more. lol
> 
> Ted



I've been thinking of doing this. I do have access to a trailer, not big but it'll do. 

Both guys that I've bought from swore what they dropped off was a full cord. What else are they going to say.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 21, 2013)

Typhke said:


> Stalk him till you can talk to him, tell him he has been doing it wrong for 27 years? :msp_biggrin:



Around here, that could get you beatup or shot!


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 21, 2013)

smokee said:


> I've been thinking of doing this. I do have access to a trailer, not big but it'll do.
> 
> Both guys that I've bought from swore what they dropped off was a full cord. What else are they going to say.



The biggest problem is your buying a volume of wood. No two people will stake it the same, therefor each time, its a different volume of wood.

If you stack it extremely tight, you could probably almost get 1.5 cords in a stake that measures 4'x 4' x 8'


----------



## Typhke (Jan 21, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Around here, that could get you beatup or shot!



Yea just kidding. If I was in the same situation, I probably wouldn't try too hard to get the rest of the cord because the chance you would get it would be low to non existing here. Just let the supplier know you've got less than a cord. If they don't want to deliver the rest, I would just look for another supplier for the next delivery.
Doing the same with ordering logs. If I get less than ordered, I'll see what they say and if they always 'work like that', I go to another supplier. They won't bring more because you can't prove that you haven't removed any wood from what they have delivered.


----------



## rmh3481 (Jan 21, 2013)

Weights and Measures is no joke in PA especially when the Low Income Heating people are involved. If LIHEAP pays for two cords of wood and the seller only delivers one, they have double problems. The State and the County, not to mention the homeowner. Alot of landscapers sell wood in the winter for extra cash, they surely dont want a State Tax audit coming their way.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 21, 2013)

rmh3481 said:


> Weights and Measures is no joke in PA especially when the Low Income Heating people are involved. If LIHEAP pays for two cords of wood and the seller only delivers one, they have double problems. The State and the County, not to mention the homeowner. Alot of landscapers sell wood in the winter for extra cash, they surely dont want a State Tax audit coming their way.



what makes you think they arent collecting sales tax. I would be willing to bet $500 weight and measures dont do a damn thing.


----------



## smokee (Feb 3, 2013)

The cord's just about gone in about 3 weeks of burning in my small insert. I'd say it wasn't a full cord.


----------



## Naked Arborist (Feb 3, 2013)

First thing I'd like to say is most people DO NOT stack their wood but like to ##### when it's cold out that they got shorted. I hear this stuff all the time on the internet. If you want to know how much you got stack it or come pick it up and load your own wood. I sell it for eighty a cord of oak in the round and you load it where it lays. If you want it off the pile it will be buck ten. Delivered is much more but always cheaper than getting beat for said amount. I can not say much more because I am not a sponsor here on AS.

Here's what makes me laugh. "Can you deliver me a seasoned, split, dry cord of oak 30-50 miles for say 150-160 a cord?" LMFAO is all I can real say about that. I don't but should say "go buy mixed hardwood from Fly by Night because that is what you are willing to pay for."

I'll sell it by any measurement you like. When you pick it up cut and in the rounds you can have any length, type of what you want and any kind of dry seasoned, unseasoned, wet, green or any wood your heart desires for a very reasonable if not a down right cheap price. No one has ever complained about any wood I have ever sold delivered or not. If they did I did not hear about it.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Feb 4, 2013)

smokee said:


> The cord's just about gone in about 3 weeks of burning in my small insert. I'd say it wasn't a full cord.



Being its been so cooled here lately, ( lows around 15 degrees, and highs under 30 degrees) You are gonna burn a crap load more wood. Plus your using a insert which isnt as efficiant as a wood stove with a blower. If your house isnt insulated good, thats gonna make you burn more wood also.

Guess you learned your lesson and gonna split your own wood from now on.


----------



## smokee (Feb 4, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Being its been so cooled here lately, ( lows around 15 degrees, and highs under 30 degrees) You are gonna burn a crap load more wood. Plus your using a insert which isnt as efficiant as a wood stove with a blower. If your house isnt insulated good, thats gonna make you burn more wood also.
> 
> Guess you learned your lesson and gonna split your own wood from now on.



A half a cord's going to be gone twice as fast as a full cord. No science there. Only lesson I've learned is to not trust anyoneselling wood in this area. :bang:


----------



## s13rymos (Feb 4, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> what makes you think they arent collecting sales tax. I would be willing to bet $500 weight and measures dont do a damn thing.



You cant charge sales tax on firewood in PA.. I checked the tax laws before i started selling..


----------



## reddogrunner (Feb 4, 2013)

WOW. Reading this thread has really opened my eyes. When I deliver mine, i always ask if they know what they are buying and how much of it. I explain to them i sell in 1/4 cord increments + a little buffer. I have more business than I can supply for right now. I'm honest and I don't sell junk. If a guy waffles and says, well I am not sure....I have a small truck that I can load about 1/4 in all stacked nice and tight. I take it to him for a reasonable fee and they show me what they want from my selection. We strike a deal 99% of the time. Quantity and quality. 

Be honest, charge what is right and the business will be there. Sorry you had to grab your ankles twice brother. Wish I was closer to you.


----------



## gtsawyer (Feb 4, 2013)

reddogrunner said:


> WOW. Reading this thread has really opened my eyes. When I deliver mine, i always ask if they know what they are buying and how much of it. I explain to them i sell in 1/4 cord increments + a little buffer. I have more business than I can supply for right now. I'm honest and I don't sell junk. If a guy waffles and says, well I am not sure....I have a small truck that I can load about 1/4 in all stacked nice and tight. I take it to him for a reasonable fee and they show me what they want from my selection. We strike a deal 99% of the time. Quantity and quality.
> 
> Be honest, charge what is right and the business will be there. Sorry you had to grab your ankles twice brother. Wish I was closer to you.



Pay attention to juxtaposition. That last sentence really sounded weird.


----------



## reddogrunner (Feb 4, 2013)

LOL. Not intended that way. I'm sure he is a lovely guy.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## trophyhunter (Feb 4, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Being its been so cooled here lately, ( lows around 15 degrees, and highs under 30 degrees) You are gonna burn a crap load more wood. Plus your using a insert which isnt as efficiant as a wood stove with a blower. If your house isnt insulated good, thats gonna make you burn more wood also.
> 
> Guess you learned your lesson and gonna split your own wood from now on.



He's been splitting his own wood, lots of it in fact before the stove went in. The only reason he's buying wood for this season is he's in his first year and the wood he laid in isn't ready yet. Two orders from different local suppliers and they both pulled the old short load he won't know any better trick. 

You'd be mad to if the shoe was on the other foot.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Feb 4, 2013)

trophyhunter said:


> He's been splitting his own wood, lots of it in fact before the stove went in. The only reason he's buying wood for this season is he's in his first year and the wood he laid in isn't ready yet. Two orders from different local suppliers and they both pulled the old short load he won't know any better trick.
> 
> You'd be mad to if the shoe was on the other foot.



He should not have let them dump it if he was unsure! You can not get a full cord in a mason dump.


----------



## smokee (Feb 4, 2013)

There's clearly two different schools of thought here. I respect your opinion T2T even though I disagree. You clearly have knowledge about how much a cord looks like stacked in a multitude of ways as you've been doing this for some time. I'm the average homeowner though... I sit at a desk most of my day. I installed this insert mid-November and only have that much experience under my belt so I'm clearly disadvantaged. I am, however, a fast learner and am taking all this bulls**t in quickly. That being said, there should be absolutely no ambiguity when it comes to a commercial transaction based on volume. Whether its gas, home heating oil or a pound of chipped ham, all these items are governed by an official state entity to ensure the customer is getting what they pay for. Why is this? So the average consumer gets a fair transaction of what they expected and paid for. A cord of wood is no different. 

This weekend the Directv guy was here and asked about my insert. We spoke for a while about burning wood. I asked about his experiences buying wood locally and, without saying anything about my two experiences, he said "Don't trust any of these guys, they're all crooks". The more I ask, the more I hear the same thing. There's clearly a problem here. He went on tell tell me a few of his stories of getting ripped off.

I'm done with this thread. Had I not of had a half a bottle of Maker's Mark in me from watching the game yesterday I wouldn't of got p****d off when I went out to bring wood in from what turned out to be a $150 half cord.


----------



## smokee (Feb 4, 2013)

gtsawyer said:


> Pay attention to juxtaposition. That last sentence really sounded weird.



True.  good one!



reddogrunner said:


> LOL. Not intended that way. I'm sure he is a lovely guy.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



I am a "lovely guy" but I have a looker for a wife so I'm not on the market right now. Just kidding around... This made me laugh. Good stuff! (I like to put things like this in when she's sitting next to me watching her chick shows)


----------



## gtsawyer (Feb 4, 2013)

I have a desk job too, and this was just the excuse (a couple of bad firewood purchases) I needed to get a wife-sanctioned hobby that got me outside. I love cutting and burning wood, and only wish I had started doing it years ago. Small price to pay for a little sanity.


----------



## smokee (Feb 4, 2013)

I did a quick search and found this page:

Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture

Interestingly, the third item on their list is "firewood". I think I'll give them a call tomorrow. The wood's gone and is water under the bridge - live and learn (right?) But I'd like to get a feel for how these guys are regulated. 

I don't expect them to do anything for me! No need to go on about it. :bang:


----------



## turnkey4099 (Feb 5, 2013)

smokee said:


> There's clearly two different schools of thought here. I respect your opinion T2T even though I disagree. You clearly have knowledge about how much a cord looks like stacked in a multitude of ways as you've been doing this for some time. I'm the average homeowner though... I sit at a desk most of my day. I installed this insert mid-November and only have that much experience under my belt so I'm clearly disadvantaged. I am, however, a fast learner and am taking all this bulls**t in quickly. That being said, there should be absolutely no ambiguity when it comes to a commercial transaction based on volume. Whether its gas, home heating oil or a pound of chipped ham, all these items are governed by an official state entity to ensure the customer is getting what they pay for. Why is this? So the average consumer gets a fair transaction of what they expected and paid for. A cord of wood is no different.
> 
> This weekend the Directv guy was here and asked about my insert. We spoke for a while about burning wood. I asked about his experiences buying wood locally and, without saying anything about my two experiences, he said "Don't trust any of these guys, they're all crooks". The more I ask, the more I hear the same thing. There's clearly a problem here. He went on tell tell me a few of his stories of getting ripped off.
> 
> I'm done with this thread. Had I not of had a half a bottle of Maker's Mark in me from watching the game yesterday I wouldn't of got p****d off when I went out to bring wood in from what turned out to be a $150 half cord.



You don't need this advice now but for others who may read it. Stack your wood and measure it as soon as you buy it. If short, don't even bother with the original seller, call the W&M people right off. Waiting until after you start burning won't help your case at all.

Harry K


----------



## turnkey4099 (Feb 5, 2013)

smokee said:


> I did a quick search and found this page:
> 
> Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
> 
> ...



In general they are "regulated" by the statutes. In reality the W&M people rarely do anything about wood sales _unless_ a customer complains. Not enough do.


----------

