# Chainsaw guys and arbo's - undersized bar - no problem.



## Ekka (Apr 1, 2007)

I did this to demonstrate how effective, even up a tree, you can be when the bar on your saw is not long enough.

Here I'm running a 18" bar on a MS440 to do the job.

You'll also notice the wedge back up on the trunk fell, it's a wise option.

Anyway, this video is about 3.30mins long and 18.6mb WMV

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/cubanas.wmv


----------



## clearance (Apr 1, 2007)

O.K., why the drama, whats wrong with the old fashioned backcut? Also, when you are falling the top, you are right behind it, I am always to one side when falling or having a big topped pulled off, maybe thats just me, but I don't want to be there if something happens, like if it kicks back, barberchairs, comes over backwards, etc. I get right behind only when I am pushing off smaller tops by hand. Also, how come the wide undercut, I make them pretty shallow so the top lands flat. Ekka, I just got high speed internet, so this is the first vid of yours I have seen, just had to put in my 2-cents.


----------



## Ekka (Apr 1, 2007)

clearance said:


> O.K., why the drama, whats wrong with the old fashioned backcut?



Please explain "the old fashioned back cut" then, or would it be when the bar is long enough to go through in one hit? The idea here is to show it's no big deal and you dont have to walk around with a 36" bar to cut larger dia stuff ... unless it's a regular occurrence. Many chainsaw guys ask the question and it's also part of our advanced felling course.



clearance said:


> Also, when you are falling the top, you are right behind it, I am always to one side when falling or having a big topped pulled off, maybe thats just me, but I don't want to be there if something happens, like if it kicks back, barberchairs, comes over backwards, etc. I get right behind only when I am pushing off smaller tops by hand.



I'm off the side, take another look, it would be hard to complete that cut from being right behind it.



clearance said:


> Also, how come the wide undercut, I make them pretty shallow so the top lands flat.



How much flatter do you want that top to land, have another look, pretty sweet, slightly vary the scarf depending the ht you are. I only had to go up enough to fit that in the yard and miss the tree/shrub down the end, the fronds cleared that tree and fell exactly in the slot.  



clearance said:


> Ekka, I just got high speed internet, so this is the first vid of yours I have seen, just had to put in my 2-cents.



Good stuff, now you can watch them all.    And maybe put some of your own up. :rockn:


----------



## buzz sawyer (Apr 1, 2007)

Ekka said:


> I did this to demonstrate how effective, even up a tree, you can be when the bar on your saw is not long enough.
> 
> Here I'm running a 18" bar on a MS440 to do the job.
> 
> ...



Another smooth take down ekka, good onya! Are all palms that soft in the middle?


----------



## Ekka (Apr 2, 2007)

Not all just some, and those are called Cuban Royal palms, prolly due to the fat cigar shaped trunk.

See, there's a guy on the forestry felling area wondering what size bar to buy for a saw. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=46520

He's mainly felling 24"dia stuff but has a dozen or so 36' dia trees ... so why sweat it just do like this and spend ya money at the other bar.  :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## buzz sawyer (Apr 2, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Not all just some, and those are called Cuban Royal palms, prolly due to the fat cigar shaped trunk.
> 
> See, there's a guy on the forestry felling area wondering what size bar to buy for a saw.
> 
> ...



May not be accustomed to a saw with adequate power and a good straight cutting bar and chain. And there's something to be said for experience too. Sounds like he's going to get some!


----------



## clearance (Apr 2, 2007)

Looked at it again, you are to the side. What I mean about a shallow undercut is that the top can hit tip first instead of landing flat and jump back. You can old fashioned backcut two siding, you are boring the backcut. Now this chap looking to fall and buck (46520), two siding does require more skill, I don't care for it much, I usually get a bigger saw. I have had to two side with a 32" bar before, fallers on the west coast do it all the time but they fall all the time. Lining the cuts up and making the holding wood straight or heavier on the off lean side is harder to do. Our compensation board guidelines say that snags may not be two sided, the bar has to be bigger than the tree. Not only that, I like to stand up straight when limbing and bucking. A 28" bar is good for me at 5'11". I use my 371 with a 28" bar in trees and on the ground.


----------



## Ekka (Apr 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> What I mean about a shallow undercut is that the top can hit tip first instead of landing flat and jump back.



Very good point and if you are up against a house or wall etc the butt will smash it!

However this situation was a good one to show what goes through the fallers mind.

I had to make sure ....

1/ The butt did not hit first.

2/ That the butt did not come back as it may have gone pool side and done damage.

In the picture attached you'll see the lawn area right up the the white gravel is slightly higher than the pool. That had to cop the pounding.







For our friend in the woods there's no better place to practice.


----------



## arboralliance (Apr 2, 2007)

*erm...*

Where does one begin?

Another great sound track, promotional video, performance in front of clients and exercising of kanga... 

...a demonstration of how to fell large timber with inadequate bar, erm, sorry, can you please pick your own fo-pars Eric YOU ARE AFTER ALL CLAIMING THIS TO BE AN INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO FOR FOREST BUCKING/FELLING, BTW nice to see (finaly) some true horizontal base cuts... 

Oh, Eric, could you not have gone the G. McMahon and concertinered it down?

Well put clearance, yet again...

p.s. WHERE THE *BLEEP* WERE YA WING CUTS AT LEAST!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ekka (Apr 2, 2007)

Oh please, where did you get your felling ticket?

Standard one here mate.

Also check out page 18 to 19 of the Memic felling guide ... USA based too. http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf

Wing cuts on a Cuban? You haven't cut many then.


----------



## arboralliance (Apr 2, 2007)

*Oh really...*

Well, I guess thats a resounding no, you are unable to pick your own faults...

A real shame...

Bragging rights to cutting trees are all yours Ekka and to cutting Cubans, well, not too many of them where I come from as you very well know, but most guys only climbing on a pole strap and what looks like a choked pole strap will be very particular about ensuring maximum safety, would you not consider wing cuts just for a viewing audience of aspiring Ekkas?

Once again, Eric, can you pick your own mistakes just purely and simply for the fact that as you are well respected by myself and tens of thousands of viewers world wide it would be nice to (finaly) see some self criticism of SOME of these videos...

Please?!

p.s. I thought we had discussed where my felling ticket was aquired when you interviewed me for the job? Or didnt I send you a copy of my C.V.?


----------



## sawsong (Apr 2, 2007)

nice work eric!

i'm currently in the middle of training in such disciplines myself. having completed my UK NPTC CS30 and C1 covering me for trees up to the guide bar length Im now doing CS32 which is up to twice bar length

what I'm not sure of, is the viability of doing CS33 for over twice guide bar length where it requires boring in through the centre of the sink (scarf to some) to clear out the middle of the trunk. In the UK I cant see me requiring that skill for the money the qualification costs where i could just use a bigger saw, not that the trees I come up against in a domestic situation have yet really required much over one bar length once buttresses etc are removed.

I think I shall have to look you up when I come to stay with my cousin outside byron bay. Your videos have taught me a lot. I feel like i owe you a beer dude. James


----------



## Ekka (Apr 2, 2007)

2 points of attachment, both are there.

Both encompassing double action allowable snaps.

Wing cuts, where necessary on trees which have a tendency to have strong bark which may control the fall if one side breaks out. Not necessary on many species including most eucs, but some trees like pine and Chinese elm it would be desirable. If I were cutting in the green head or just below where there's compression my word I'd put them in, if it were a cocos palm also. 

After nit picking not much wrong is there? That's if you consider 2 pole straps wrong but I do 90% of my palm TD's with 2 pole straps as I prefer 2 wire cores as you are always cutting close to your straps. The debate would be an escape, but I assure you a choked lifeline with a prussic (SRT descent) will bind and you aint escaping anywhere unless you then have an 8 (or similar) in the system with your hitch.

If you indeed gained certification in large tree felling and that method wasn't displayed then that college has something to answer to. It was covered on our course. You see subjects completed but not what was actually taught within those subjects.

Also some colleges such as the reknown Australian College of Applied Science were shut down by govt due to the volume of tick and flick's being turned out. The qualifications held by some are now not seen as worth the paper they're written on which is a shame for the legitimate students who did do well ... but they'll only know what they were taught and if there were deficiencies such as missing a technique described they'll simply not know unless they are curious and read or follow forums.

The only genuine criticism I see was the width of the hinge on the final log fell. It was very thin. That's because the kanga could not push it over first attempt and I went back in and tickled it closer, it was a heavy lump to push off. That piece was edited out but what you would have seen is me go and push with the kanga, no result, go back and cut a thinner hinge then push it over ... no big deal.


----------



## clearance (Apr 2, 2007)

sawsong said:


> nice work eric!
> 
> i'm currently in the middle of training in such disciplines myself. having completed my UK NPTC CS30 and C1 covering me for trees up to the guide bar length Im now doing CS32 which is up to twice bar length
> 
> what I'm not sure of, is the viability of doing CS33 for over twice guide bar length where it requires boring in through the centre of the sink (scarf to some) to clear out the middle of the trunk. In the UK I cant see me requiring that skill for the money the qualification costs where i could just use a bigger saw, not that the trees I come up against in a domestic situation have yet really required much over one bar length once buttresses etc are removed.


What? I am confounded, I feel like Hank Hill. Sounds like you need different qualifications every time the tree gets bigger? I know you Limeys need a license to buy an 020 or similar but c'mon. I strongly suggest looking up Worksafe B.C. and seeing if you can download the "Falllers and Buckers Manual. This is the standard of tree falling and bucking in British Columbia, where big time logging was invented. Ekka, no big deal, I remove trees with one double ended steelcore all the time, my rope stays with me, coiled up and hanging from the left side of my saddle in case I need it.


----------



## sawsong (Apr 2, 2007)

clearance said:


> What? I am confounded, I feel like Hank Hill. Sounds like you need different qualifications every time the tree gets bigger? I know you Limeys need a license to buy an 020 or similar but c'mon. I strongly suggest looking up Worksafe B.C. and seeing if you can download the "Falllers and Buckers Manual. This is the standard of tree falling and bucking in British Columbia, where big time logging was invented. Ekka, no big deal, I remove trees with one double ended steelcore all the time, my rope stays with me, coiled up and hanging from the left side of my saddle in case I need it.



LOL yer half right anyway
the different qualifications are dressed up as different sized trees, but if you read the description, each course relates to a certain range of skills and techniques. in theory the same sized tree could be used for all three of cs31, 32 and 33 just varying guide bar lengths (same as tree diameter. half diameter, less than half diameter). each course lasts about 4-5 days including a very strict NPTC assessment on the last day. personally, i think that it is a good thing, because you concentrate solely on a few skills and get them all perfect and perform them SAFELY, of couse this is our aim is it not? 

in the same vein there is a seperate windblown one (CS35 iirc) which i think is a sterling idea considering how dangerous they can be to deal with, and then the next ones im doing are cs38 (tree climbing and aerial rescue) - no saw at this point, merely safe climbing practices and how to be a groundie who can rescue your climber should you need to, then CS39 (operating chainsaw from rope and harness) makes sense to learn to climb first doesnt it (30, 31 and 38 are pre-requisites) and then CS41 which is sectional take down skills i believe including rigging.

to be perfectly honest, it does seem a good idea to me. it's costing me a fortune to do these courses out of my music production degree student loan, but that just increases my drive and determination


----------



## Treeman587 (Apr 2, 2007)

Ekka said:


> The only genuine criticism I see was the width of the hinge on the final log fell. It was very thin. That's because the kanga could not push it over first attempt and I went back in and tickled it closer, it was a heavy lump to push off. That piece was edited out but what you would have seen is me go and push with the kanga, no result, go back and cut a thinner hinge then push it over ... no big deal.




If You had put a line on it you could have just "tickled" it until you helper pulled it over.:biggrinbounce2:

edit: BTW It appears palms are pretty light, but how much can your kanga handle?


----------



## Ekka (Apr 3, 2007)

Palms aren't that light. when a piece rolls into a swimming pool it sinks. This means it weighs more than 1000kg/m3. They are generally wet and full of water.

The Kanga can lift around 250kg but depends on how many guys are hanging off the back as counter weight.  

Could've pulled it, pushed it, wedged it, craned it ... many options, but using your toys is fun.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## Treeman587 (Apr 3, 2007)

yeah I have always wondered about those things. But if you are holding a log up a little, like putting it in the truck, and it rolls forward, I bet thats a fun ride. 

Ahhhh, Just blame it on the helper for cutting them too big I guess.


----------



## Ekka (Apr 4, 2007)

That is a bugger but you learn to load up hill and you get a good feel on when it will do it ... I've had some beauties and how I didn't go over the handle bars is beyond me. lol


----------



## DonnyO (Apr 4, 2007)

*nice vids EKKA*

I've watched all of 'em, good music, good stuff. I just may have to get myself a vid camera!


----------



## infomet (Apr 5, 2007)

Is the palm stem good for anything?
Grind up for mulch?
I might have sent the women next door.


----------



## Ekka (Apr 5, 2007)

It's very wet and heavy, more like squashed wet grass clippings. Also has a tendency to turn acidic.

Not much good really, but some places take it and just leave it in a big pile for ages then mix it in with other stuff.

When it dries out there wouldn't be much volume to it.


----------



## ckliff (Jun 17, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Palms aren't that light. when a piece rolls into a swimming pool it sinks.



Now that's a vid I'd sure like to see!opcorn:


----------



## beelsr (Jun 20, 2007)

clearance said:


> I strongly suggest looking up Worksafe B.C. and seeing if you can download the "Falllers and Buckers Manual. This is the standard of tree falling and bucking in British Columbia, where big time logging was invented.



I couldn't find the link when I've looked in the past but if you could provide one for this near-mythical document, I'd gladly download and read it....


----------



## infomet (Jun 20, 2007)

Looks like you have to order it.

http://www.worksafebc.com/publications/health_and_safety/by_topic/forestry/default.asp

Form:

http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati...ations_and_videos/assets/pdf/faxorderform.doc

Looks like you have to call for shipping charge.


----------



## beelsr (Jun 21, 2007)

infomet said:


> Looks like you have to order it.
> 
> http://www.worksafebc.com/publications/health_and_safety/by_topic/forestry/default.asp
> 
> ...



SHHHH! I'm trying to score a copy for free..... :bang:


----------



## palogger (Nov 6, 2007)

*bar size*

Thats the way we do most of the cutting around here, sometimes if the tree is just a little bigger we just bore the majority of the center out and the cut like u did in the video. As i was taught it is possible to cut up to 2 1/2 times ur bar length doing as i explained. 99.9% of the time i run a 20" inch bar on my ms460 and have taken down soem pretty big oak and cherry


----------



## RogueArbor (Nov 25, 2007)

This may not be the same as the one for order, but here's a free download of the BC Faller Training Standard (Some good stuff).
http://www2.worksafebc.com/Portals/Forestry/FallingAndBucking.asp 

also, the previously linked "Production Felling through Safety" was WONDERFUL!! I'd never learned any quantifiable method for determining wedge affectiveness. GREAT stuff, thanks for the post!! 

Anyone care to weigh in (in detail) on different notch techniques aloft for different situations (i.e. to aviod the tip falling first, to cause the butt to jump, to make the butt fall first, to cause to fall flat, etc.)?

Thanks!

Also, great video! i love your them all! and as a side note, i saw your "tongue and groove" video months ago and while it was sure a cool little trick i couldn't figure why to use it... UNTIL i read "Production Felling..." Thanks again!!! It all makes me want to get back to work!! (not sure if that's a good thing though...)


----------

