# questions re: climbing basics



## NebClimber (Aug 13, 2003)

Hey guys. Need some info on climbing. Taught myself how to climb (traditional method, KISS, which is what I want to stick with, at least as much as possible), then a few kind souls gave me 20 minute lessons. Just completed by first job in the biz. Climbed and cleared limbs on walnut that were hanging over house. Then cleared deadwood. I KEEP GETTING TANGLED IN THE TREE. I recrotched about 10 times as I moved from limb to limb, etc. And some of the times where I didn't recrotch, I was left tied into a limb that was paralell to me. And at times, below me. I know the theory is to tie in as high as possible, but even when I was tied in well above the branch i was working on, when I moved to the other side of the tree, or even just to a branch to my left or right, my rope tangled in branches, or I was left with my running end strung through the tree. What am I missing here!?

Yes, below me. This sounds like a really bad idea, but I did it.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 13, 2003)

I am hesitant to give advice to a (_fella_)fool who is just starting out and is already doing things he knows are wrong. There are plenty of ways to get hurt or killed in this work when you do things right. It's guys like you that drive insurance rates so dang high.
Perhaps the best advice is to encourage you into another field of work, what do you think of sales? You could stay in aboriculture and perhaps even make more money working on comission.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 13, 2003)

Ditto to what Brian said. Tree climbing ain't checkers, it much more like chess - ya gotta see several moves ahead and work with that.

Divide the tree into two, four, or even more quadrants then work them accordingly. Don't be shy to reclimb the same lead to get a better point of tie-in for working another quadrant

Pay attention to what your rope is doing - above and below you. Take the time to square your line away, but don't spend all the time messing witch 'yo rope.

If you don't do it allready, learn how to tie in with your tail, and use your lanyard resourcefully.

Once you reach the top, setting multiple ropes will help, especially in the big trees.

If you have shorter ropes, use them in the smaller trees. There is no reason to use a 120-150 ft rope in a 40 ft tree.

Every time you find yourself in a bind, try to figure out what you did wrong and remember it. Learn from your mistakes.

There are several good books to study. My favorite is Gerald Beraneks "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work".

Plan your moves, learn from your errors, and don't repeat 'em!

Mike Maas has some valid points, but you've got to start somewhere. Educate yourself, learn from other climbers, and plan your moves. On days off, get with another climber whos working and observe him. See what he does right, but even more important, see what he does wrong. Become a sponge and soak up everything you can.

Do the most work you can, with the least energy expended.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2003)

*Gotta start somewhere*

I like Blaster's chess reference. It takes experience to 'read' a tree, but it's the only way you'll learn to work a tree with the safety and efficiency of a pro.

Do you have a BigShot? Much cheaper than a bucket truck. If you're using spikes on anything but a dead tree you'll get a lot of flack from us guys who care for trees, rather than pock them full of little holes.

As far as repositioning your rope, mebbe try redirects; that is, using web slings to choker a nearby limb, and clip your rope through that using a locking caribiner. This is classic rock climbing method and is essential in limbwalking.

Beranek's book is truly a great reference, and Jerry was/is maybe the best big tree guy on the planet. I think the best reference guide I have yet come across is "The Tree Climber's Companion" by Jeff Jepson. Well-illustrated and he covers the spectrum really well. This is my suggestion as a place to start. p.s. Get liability insurance.


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## geofore (Aug 13, 2003)

*what's missing*

Does not sound as if you were missing any of the limbs . Do not practice bad habits, take the time to do it right and you will get faster and better at it, in time, in the tree. We have all climbed back up to reset lines to get a better angle. When I first started to cut trees I was taken by how different they looked from up in the tree than from the ground. I made a plan of how to take the tree from on the ground and once up in the tree it changed because I could see from up there an easier way to do it, so leave your plan open and as you climb up look around to see what can be done easier or different from up top. Time and practice good habits, you need to read the mentioned books to find out the tricks that work, it is faster and safer than trial and error. 20 miniute lessons are a step in the right direction but not enough time to learn it all. In time you will learn to read trees, every catface, bump, hollow and crotch has something to tell you about the tree. Time and practicing good habits.


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## Crispin Hoar (Aug 13, 2003)

I like to get together with other climbers and play tag in the trees. You really learn how to read a tree when you are trying to catch or get away from another climber. The better your tie in point the better you play the game. You will learn how to move threw the tree with the most ease. ***note** When playing tag. If you must make an unsafe move or break a safety rule to get away from the person that is it DON"T. I won't play with people that climb above thier tie in point or break safety rules. Its a GAME. Iwant to play not do an aerial rescue.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 13, 2003)




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## NickfromWI (Aug 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *It's guys like you that drive insurance rates so dang high.
> *



Or is it the guys that don't take the time to ask other people who have the answers. I commend the guy for trying to find out the answers. 

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 13, 2003)

I WISH this forum had been around when I first started. I would have drove you guys crazy! 

Are ya still with us, Nebclimber?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 13, 2003)

Nick, at least you had the sence to go looking for a job so you could learn from pro's,


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## NebClimber (Aug 14, 2003)

Thanks for the replies guys. Today went a little better. I've been reading the Tree Climber's Companion, and that is where I learned to climb. I am most intrigued by the idea of "re-tying in with my tail." What does this mean? I'll check the book and see if it is in there. By the way, how fast are you guys at retying in? 5 minutes? 60 seconds?


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 14, 2003)

Tieing in with your tail is nothing more than using a bowline to attach your line to your saddle. Leave yourself enough length in the tail to tie your climbing knot.

You can leave the original line attached for double crotched limb walking, or you could detach and go completely on your tail for a temporary new tie-in point. Mostly the latter.

The speed of re-tieing in depends on how fast you can tie a bowline. You DO know how to tie a bowline, right?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2003)

*I'm a cow fan*

I'd like to learn to tie a bowline sometime. A decade in the business and, unbelievable as it seems, I have never tied a bowline. I'm a VERY big fan of spliced rope ends and ( an assortment of..)caribiners which are quick-to-rig as well as unrig. This eliminates a lot of conventional tie-off ops.

I find (an assortment of...) web slings to be indipensible in doing any technical rigging, either of yourself or limbs and branches.

Wire core flipline? Safety snaps on both ends give extra tie in point versatility.

I, too, wish I'd had this forum thread when I was starting out.... a bunch of field pro's serving it up to me on a silver platter, gladly, and for free. -TM-


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## geofore (Aug 14, 2003)

*to tie or knot*

Thank God they never approved velcro or the new micro velcro for climbing, though the newer pads for the spurs use velcro. You should learn to tie knots in case one your slings breaks. I use slings and caribiners but know how to tie knots they are handy and you can do it with one hand in a pinch. What am I saying my chaps use velcro Your going to make the old guys think knots are old like the kids that don't learn how to do math because they use a calculator. Learning to tie knots helps you learn how to think, ask Nick, he can splice, a step beyond knots though I can tie a knot faster than I can splice a loop in the end of a rope I splice rope on rain days. I think climbing basics should include knots and the proper use of slings.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 14, 2003)

Say you accidently nick your line, you'll need tie it off. Or if you want to double end...

But then I don't use a bo'lin for that, I'll use an anchor or a fisherman's, depending if it is spilt tail or old fashioned fixed tail attatchment.


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## Burnham (Aug 14, 2003)

Ya gotta do knots...it's so deeply ingrained in all manner of ropework that I don't see how you can call yourself a pro climber/rope technician without that skill in spades. I can't believe knotless climbing even exists.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 14, 2003)

Don't tell me.... bowline mindblock?

I thought that was only a brush tech ailment!


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## Steve Bunyan (Aug 14, 2003)

*blake's or tautline*

The more I read these threads the more I realize what a novice I am. I just started using the split tail system this year after two years of burning the tails of my rope. I'm proud of my knowledge of traditional knots but feel like I'm in the dark ages. Tautline or Blake's Hitch? I can't get the Blake's to bite as good as the Tautline. I use a figure eight stopper knot on both. Before you tease me realize there aren't many monster trees in Central Canada and most of the time I free climb with a scare strap(flipline), an 020 and a good arm lock.


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## Dan F (Aug 14, 2003)

It's been two+ years since I've been in a tree, so I'm not up-to-date on some stuff...

The problem I had with the tautline is that it bit *too* well. It was hard to get it to release and slide up the rope, IIRC.

If you are having trouble with the Blakes hitch, you probably either need to dress it better, or you are just not tying it right. I never had a problem with it when it was tied right.

As for free climbing, I'll let someone else more experienced jump in on that. The only thing I'll say about it though, is I don't care how strong your arm is, the rope is stronger, and it doesn't ever get distracted!


Dan


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 14, 2003)

3 point contact while working is a "shall not" in the ANSI standards, and not a good idea in general.

In the US it is requierd to have 2 points of tie in when cutting, just in case. I like the added stability. Chansays "shall" be peorated with 2 hands, unless the responsible person (read company owner) descdes it is the safest method for that particular cut. Kickback cna be a bee-itch

IOM no one should free climb any tree. If you do this every day, the odds are agianst you that you may slip.


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## monkeypuzzle (Aug 14, 2003)

JPS, are you saying "treemen" or everyone should never free climb any tree? I do agree 100% treemen and treewomen should never free climb while they are working, but you gotta let the little boys and little girls be little boys and little girls right. It's as American as apple pie to me. My grandmother had the worlds best tree for free climbing on the planet. Southern Magnolia


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## Steve Bunyan (Aug 14, 2003)

Old habits die hard. My scarestrap is an adjustable leather belt that the utility uses to climb poles. But even they have 100% tie-off with a second flipline. I can blame the boss all I want for not supplying the right equipment but its my own fault for working with it. You should see how stupid I look halfway up a spruce on spurs with my arms wrapped around the tree trying to shorten this belt to compensate for the difference in trunk diameter.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Steve Bunyan _
> You should see how stupid I look halfway up a spruce on spurs with my arms wrapped around the tree trying to shorten this belt to compensate for the difference in trunk diameter. [/B]



Steve, ya gotta get an ascender and a piece of rope and make a new lanyard!!! Whole new world! You'll never go back!

Retire that scarestrap!


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## NickfromWI (Aug 14, 2003)

You don't need an ascender. Almost any friction hitch will do. Try the Distel!

love
nick


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## Tree Machine (Aug 14, 2003)

*Heck yea, knotless climbing exists*



> Ya gotta do knots...it's so deeply ingrained in all manner of ropework that I don't see how you can call yourself a pro climber/rope technician without that skill in spades. I can't believe knotless climbing even exists.


I do use knots once in awhile. More often though, I use hitches. 

Knotless climbing DOES exist (10 years.....). You use ascenders to go up a doubled rope and you switch over to any number of fricton control systems once you're in the tree. How you do this depends very much on your choice of friction control.

When I lower a limb, I flip the binered eye around the limb to be lowered and clip it back to the rope. Or I'll get fancy and do a quick cow hitch. Either way, it's just a couple-few seconds. If I need to lower the limb (say I'm working alone) and need to retrieve my rope end, this requires a sling chokered around the limb to be lowered and fundamental rigging to get the limb softly to the ground and get the rope back. With a knot, someone down there has to undo it.

I enjoy very much knots and hitches as part of our profession, it's just my rigging and climbing are so much faster and efficient without them. -TM-


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 14, 2003)

Steve wrote:

Old habits die hard. 

As long as its only habits that are dying. Your old work habits are putting you in a very risky situation. Ask your children/wife/parents/siblings/significant other to make safety desicions for you and I'll bet you would be changing your old habits a lot quicker. 

My scarestrap is an adjustable leather belt that the utility
uses to climb poles.

My "Scarestrap" got retired almost twenty years ago. The one I had was fiber not leather. If you're climbing on a leather one, you might as well hold a hair trigger pistol to your head. It is DANGEROUS!!! I wonder when that was manufactured. Probably long before your pickup. 

Take a look at the archives and find out how easy, and cheap! it is to make up a modern, adjustable lanyard. If budget is an issue, get a steel, double locking rope snap and a three foot piece of acceptable accessory cord along with a ten foot piece of serviceable climbing line. Tie a few knots and hitches and you will join the modern age.

Climbing like you are is Eight Track Climbing. Get modern, you'll live longer. And, be healthier to boot 

Tom


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## dbeck (Aug 15, 2003)

what tom said AND you'll have more fun w/ more modern equipment. That's right, work in trees is fun w/ the right equipment.

nebclimber, don't be discouraged by what maas, said earlier in this thread. I do agree to an extent that inexperienced people do cause insurance rates to go up - only if they have insurance, right?
You are tryin to gain experience and knowledge by chatting here, i'll give you credit for that. take everything SLOW, and learn the ropes. They hold you alive. Learn the tactics and methods, they keep people, property and you safe. once an old time climber (old timer?) told me "it takes a climber about a year to get halfway good at climbing and about three years until he/she will be considered a good climber by peers"
Keep that in mind and keep striving to be the best!


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## timberfell (Aug 15, 2003)

Steve Bunyan,

Passing the tail in front, instead of behind the standing part of the rope as you tuck the tail trough the coils on a Blake's will create what is known as the "suicslide" knot, it won't bite well, if at all. Unfortunatly, I have seen people tie it that way. Make sure you compare yours with some good pictures. I have never had the problem with mine not "biting", although I switched to the distel.


I hope a descibed that right, I don't have a piece of rope on me now to tie as I write.!!

Kurt.


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## Burnham (Aug 15, 2003)

Tree Machine, is a hitch not a type of knot?

Maybe you mean that you seldom tie a knot in the tree when climbing...if so, I guess I can see your point.

But to me, if you tie up a lanyard using a friction hitch adjuster on your sofa at home, then go out and use it in the tree, or tie up a Blake's, Distel, you name it, on the ground and then ascend, work, and descend on it then you are using knots in climbing. Don't you use a throw bag and line? How do you attach your throw line to the bag, or the throw line to your climbing line to place it in the tree?

In my book, one could only claim knotless climbing if everything you use is either spliced or mechanical...but that is just my definition, worth every penny y'all paid for it .

If you really "very much enjoy knots", how can you not know how to tie a bowline...or maybe that was just bait for a sucker like me to roar at... .


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## TREETX (Aug 15, 2003)

Climbing is a progression. Start simple. Blake's or TL. Then throw in a split tail. Next evolution step. Is moving to a super short/no bridge and a distel. Then versions of the VT. I am at the VT. Somewhere in there adding FC and/or RG. 

What is next?? Removing limbs via Jedi mind tricks??


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Burnham _
> *Tree Machine, is a hitch not a type of knot?
> *



A hitch is a knot that can be untied easily. Blakes hitch, cow hitch...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 15, 2003)

Mmm i thought that a hitch was something that tied around something more properly. Then ya 'bend' lines together, other stuff is knots, or anything small etc. Generically all knots to most.......orrrrrrr something like that!

i'd recomend that any loop in your lifline below you (tieing in with tail etc.) is touching ground or guarded very carefully. Cuz ya sure wouldn't want to drop 300# 10' into it! 

i tie a bowline (temporary eye) and rig all day with slings/karabs hooking into that eye; as well as sling/karab sets performing many other integral functions. i'd kinda call it knotless rigging anyways. Bowline could be spliced eye(sometimes is); or might be from yesterday (nope, don't play that way).

Slings are quick, and can be preset, even trailed 10' out as you set previous limb; so ya don't have to make that trip again etc. i think they are the pro-flexible utility grab etc.

If we got disturbed over a tough MM view; this place would be a ghost town!

edit-i think one determination of hitch or knot; is a hitch goes around something, who's size may vary, there fore the strength of the hitch can vary, because of how tight the arc of leveraged fibres grabbing around assorted devices. A normal bowline goes around a post; but it's limiting strength factor would be the half hitch that forms around it's own tail twice; so it would be a knot i think. It's cousin, the sheet bend works on the same principal only like cut open bowline to join 2 ropes. But it loses some security in doing so, for now the half hitch is only pulled tight in one direction, because of cutting open the other one.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2003)

*knotless climbing.....*



> Tree Machine, is a hitch not a type of knot?


 I'm very glad you asked. Lest we not forget 'bends' either. Knots, hitches and bends. They're sorta distinct animals, and we could get lengthy in technically defining each (see page 16, _The Complete Book of Knots_ by Geoffrey Budworth). A knot though, is sort of generic term and can include bends and hitches. Hitches are used to tie a rope to SOMETHING, monofilament line to a fishin hook, rope to a hitching post, slickline on a shotbag ring. If you tie a hook onto monofilament line, no matter how you do it, it's considereed a knot even though, technically it will always be a hitch. 

Knots are more of a rope-tied-to-rope thing (surgeon's knot, double fisherman, etc), though, many hitches are rope-on-rope, but if you were to tie the two ends of an identical rope together, it would very likely be a knot (unless you used a cow hitch with a half hitch on a sliding bowline).

I'm not condoning not using knots. I love knots and hitches and *used* to use them frequently. But I have eyes spliced into both ends of every single rope I own, regardless of length - even my accessory lines for tying things down. 

This means anything I'm putting on the end of that rope gets chokered by simply going around the limb and clipping the caribiner back to the rope. Or for a bit more security, I go around the limb, 180 around the rope, back up around the limb and clip the rope back to itself - a cow hitch. Or I'll choker( or even prusik) the item to be lowered _with a web sling_ and clip IT to the spliced eye. It just makes my rigging more swift. No 'knots' required - TM -


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 17, 2003)

I jest use a Bowline to rope limbs.

Never failed me yet.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2003)

*Knotless climbing.....*



> ... if you tie up a lanyard using a friction hitch adjuster on your sofa at home, then go out and use it in the tree, or tie up a Blake's, Distel, you name it, on the ground and then ascend, work, and descend on it then you are using knots in climbing.


I use mechanical friction devices to move about the tree, and to rappell. I use a double-ended wirecore flipline with a microcender for adjusting.



> In my book, one could only claim knotless climbing if everything you use is either spliced or mechanical...


That's the claim, sir.



> If you really "very much enjoy knots", how can you not know how to tie a bowline...


 I didn't say I didn't know _how_ to tie or use a bowline, rather that I just don't use it. 



> Don't you use a throw bag and line? How do you attach your throw line to the bag, or the throw line to your climbing line to place it in the tree?



I tie my ZipIt line to an aluminum spring-gate caribiner called the Black Diamond Micron; the miniature, but otherwise identical, form of the BD Hotwire. This stays permanently on my throwline. Clip the slickline's light, little caribiner to the rope's eye, and up she goes. I tie the micron on with a triple cow. OK. I'm therefore not 100% knotless. -TM-


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 17, 2003)

What devices are you using for working and rapping?

Tom


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2003)

*Climbing basics*

There are a buttload of friction devices out there, all kinds from all different industries, sports and professions. Many I have not even tried.

A mechanical friction device just needs to fulfil three requirements (for me): needs to go onto the rope WHILE my ascenders are still on (switch over to roam, then remove the ascenders). I need to be able to adjust the amount of friction depending on the amount of force I'm putting on the rope with pretty much a fingertip touch, and I need to be able to hang, hands free, suspended. SRT or DdRT. All this, you are doing using friction hitches, so why am I using mechanical?

Rigging onto (or off) the rope is under 5 seconds. This on rope / off rope happens many dozens of times in a day and in being frequent and repetitive, I like to have it boiled down, simple, quick and bombproof. I can switch from rappell to ascend, or vice versa, while suspended on rope. Though I prefer SRT, I work primarily DdRT.

What mechanical friction system I use is not important. I'm not asking anyone to change, but rather to know that there are other basic ways to do what you all are already doing...- so if friction hitches are working well (and they are) don't change. -TM-


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 18, 2003)

One of the problems with our overuse of abreiviations. DdRT is ascending on a doubled rope vs ascending on a single rope (SRT). Both ropes kept static in the crotch. (we adopted the second "D" to avoid theit being mistaken for using 2 separate ropes, which I have heard of people using in trees, and is frequently used in other rope disiplines)

I assume you work on the traditional loo system which renders a hypothetical 2:1 advantage?


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## dbeck (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: Climbing basics*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *.
> What mechanical friction system I use is not important.
> 
> ...


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 19, 2003)

Tree Machine,

I know about all of the friction devices that are available. Instead of rattling on about functions blah, blah, blah, could you just, simply, answer my question?

What device are you using? How about a free exchange of information? Open, friendly, dialog? Banter? Give and take?

Ascending on SRT is wierd enough for most people in the professsion. Working on SRT is down right other-dimensional. For several years I've ascended SRT and lately I spend more time working on SRT than DdRT. There is lots to learn, why not share what you've figured out. I think that I've been pretty generous.

Am I ranting? You could say so...

Your volley, TM

Tom

dbeck wrote: every time I see him at a convention I am amazed at his collection of gadgetry and, in turn, his ability to pay for all of them!

And, I'll add, work productively and share performance tips freely. Chainsaws could be considered gadgetry if you only use handsaws  Same for pickups if you only ride horses... All of the stuff is tools to me.


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## Stumper (Aug 19, 2003)

And to add something totally off topic- I love the new avatar Brian. Too cool.

TM, come clean-Tom is a complete gearhead and is always looking for ways to utilize the toys. If you are using something in an 'unapproved' manner he will say so but if you are doing something cool that he hasn't tried,- you'll make his day.:angel:


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## kurtztree (Aug 20, 2003)

I use the two over two on my blue streak climbing line that is what asplundh people taught me how to tie. do any of you still use that or is that just what old timers use. I want to learn some new ways of climbing too. Asplundh does mostly old ways like most all climbing is done with spikes.


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## ORclimber (Aug 20, 2003)

Kurtztree, 

I worked for Asplundh too. You are somewhat restricted by their way of doing things, but you can make some changes for the better while still following the rules. Switching to hookless trimming is easy, all you need(for 99% of trees) is one of those cheap wooden company ladders to get to the lowest branches then climb. You can use your fliplines to stay tied in 100% of the time or set a rope with the long pull hook. Somewhat comforting not having those hooks grounded in the tree too. 

Unless things have changed you can't use your own gear, so the advanced climbing knots are out. You could upgrade to the blake hitch though, and make yourself a split tail out of company gear. 

Just my twisted thoughts:alien:


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## oldugly (Aug 20, 2003)

Asplundh
Been there, done that, drank alot then too. LOL
I've been reading that tree climbers companion...great stuff. I even went out and bought one of them modern throwline things. That is just plain fun. Spikes are of course only for removals. but I am having some problems getting use to placing a line before I climb. Been doing it the Asplundh way far too long....The odds of keeping it up aren't too good. So I've been changing alot the way I do things. 
You are in the right place to learn.. These guys are showing me something new all the time.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by oldugly _
> * Spikes are of course only for removals. but I am having some problems getting use to placing a line before I climb.
> *



What problems are you having with that, oldugly?


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## oldugly (Aug 20, 2003)

The way I was taught...The ASPLUNDH way was to free-climb..then place your line. the whole throwline pulling the climbing rope into the tree prior to climbing, is still a little slow for me...and to be quite honest when it is a small tree (or conveninent) I revert to the older and faster( at least for me) methods....But I am learning, and starting to use the throwline more often. Now I know I'll catch some grief about it, and someone is going to call me a newbie....that's okay, but mind you I have been doing it this way since before some of you were born. Old habits die hard...but I am hoping to kill off a couple before they get me first.


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## Dan F (Aug 20, 2003)

*The ASPLUNDH way*

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8688

Pic in the local paper this spring...


Dan


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 20, 2003)

Do all the trees you climb have branches that require you to use your throwline? It seems that most of the trees I deal with I just throw my climbing line to get into. I'm good for 30' or so, but higher than that I break out the throwline.

I don't enjoy using my throwline just because of the time it takes to deal with it; But, when I need, I use it.


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## oldugly (Aug 20, 2003)

Love the picture...Yup...the ASPLUNCH way,,,although none will admit while employed there. LOL


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 20, 2003)

I operated a bucket truck for the orange guys for two years.


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## bd NC (Aug 21, 2003)

Agree w/ Master of the Blaster. I started w/ the Power line clearance boys (whom I won't name) and didn't have the rope tangle problem. We side walled everything in site. Started pruning w/ another lg. co. and found second, third even climbing lines to be the way to fly.


How to tell your a full fledge tree co. owner?

Siffed by more then one attorney.


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## bd NC (Aug 21, 2003)

woops ....... spelling sub par THEN.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 21, 2003)

So Kurt, where in WI are you located?


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## TREETX (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ORclimber _
> *Switching to hookless trimming is easy, all you need(for 99% of trees) is one of those cheap wooden company ladders to get to the lowest branches then climb. You can use your fliplines to stay tied in 100% of the time or set a rope with the long pull hook. *



Wow, the latest techniques!!! Ground breaking stuff here.


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## kurtztree (Aug 21, 2003)

John I am in Fonddulac Wi about one hour from milwaukee. What kind of knot do you use for climbing the foot lock position and what lanyard do you use like a rope or webbing lanyard so in case you slip you dont fall to the ground. I ordered the tree climbing videos from isa.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 21, 2003)

I use paired ascenders on a doubled rope for if I'm climbing over 20-25 ft.

I have a Distel on my lanyard, and climb on an MT.

I go up to Green Lake a few times a month. Drop me a line if you want some pointers.

Get the Jepson book too. It is worth much more then the 15 or so bucks they charge.


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## ORclimber (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *Wow, the latest techniques!!! Ground breaking stuff here.  *



McTreeTrimming at its best.


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## Guy Meilleur (Aug 21, 2003)

Boys and their Toys! 
I've worked with four of the posters on this thread and no offense but the old ways--ladder, free-climbing, tossing monkeyfist, bodythrust (great training for the horizontal mambo)-- worked much faster in the great majority of cases.

Yeah, a few times I was impressed by seeing a line set high in a hurry and ratchet right to it--very cool. But too often I saw (and paid for!) a lot of casting about and no fish caught.

Bottom line for me is what I heard earlier here: keep the toys in the bag unless you know they have a very good chance of saving time and effort. When the work is simple, keep the methods simple.

But then I'm a simple Guy--Wudja expect to hear?:angel:


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## TREETX (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *
> Bottom line for me is what I heard earlier here: keep the toys in the bag unless you know they have a very good chance of saving time and effort. When the work is simple, keep the methods simple.
> 
> *



I can't argue with that.

I will say that the more tools one has in their tool bag, the better off they are,.............as long as they know when to use the tools and when to leave them in the bag.

This goes the same for management tools/techniques as well. 

If the tree is over 30ft, I figure with all of that ladder unloading, positioning, monkey fisting, air humping, and recrotching, that gives me a minimum of 20minutes to set a line and make a 20 second footlock.

Toys ARE cool. Knowing when to use them is cooler. I love using a FC or RG but sometimes, if there are not too many tasks at hand, it is quicker to just get up there and get it done!!

Knowing when to use the toys is the most important part. That is why so many get scared from using them. They just think, "WTF!!" I can't take the time to use that technique on every tree. Duh!! They are not for EVERY situation.

You can't always measure usefulness of a toy/technique in minutes. I think effort saved is important too. If more effort free styles keep me climbing 5-6 days a week w/out exhaustion, I am all for them. Beats 3-4 days and then "healing up" (sore muscles and bruised egos - zubat bites too)


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 22, 2003)

If you can throw a line in to a high leverage point for a removal, in the same time someone could dress and spike up; i guess it might depend on who's skills need sharpenning on what technique.

Except that, throwline would be safer, if not to mention possibly thrown to a higher advantage point; especially if line is traced down back of tree, allowing even higher leverage power with restored security (like in stronger, lower tree with bowline tie off )for pull.

i think if a trow line is your chosen tool, even taking as long to use it as other methods is if nothing else safer, less fatiguing; then polishing skills that lean to that end.

i think you have to allow a learning curve, then the toys go back in the bag; when you can confidentally quick draw them out, and their skills to task. One of the best things i ever did was to commit to carrying slings, rescue pulleys and karabs as my tools to figure out how to use. Still coming up with more ways to use those simple tools. Otherwise they'd always be on the ground, with whatever trick i could experiment/ try weighed against their retrieval, carrying what not used to, unfromed habits with them etc.

:alien:


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## timberfell (Aug 22, 2003)

Spyder, you gotta put Treetx's "WTF" in your "Climber Acronym's" list in the "For real or Sarcastic" thread. It's a keeper.  

In fact I used that one the other day when my ground man sent up my throwline attched to my climb line with a "gopher" knot (Gopher your handsaw!!) geez  

Kurt


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## TREETX (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by timberfell _
> *Spyder, you gotta put Treetx's "WTF" in your "Climber Acronym's" list in the "For real or Sarcastic" thread. It's a keeper. *



I see you easily guessed I wasn't talking about the World Trade Federation.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *
> Yeah, a few times I was impressed by seeing a line set high in a hurry and ratchet right to it--very cool. But too often I saw (and paid for!) a lot of casting about and no fish caught.
> *



Hmm seems to me, even when you wer compalining about the time spent, I got 2 lines set in around 1/2 hour 

It's not just the time spent getting up in the tree, but the over all effort. Also I can get that High set and work out on lower limbs better without having to climb all the way up to crotch.

IMO it's not all about who can climb to the top the fastest, but how efficeint the whole job gets done.

And sometimes the old fashioned way is the best way to go.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by timberfell _
> *Spyder, you gotta put Treetx's "WTF" in your "Climber Acronym's" list in the "For real or Sarcastic" thread. It's a keeper.
> Kurt *



Have you figured out PITA and POS yet?


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## Guy Meilleur (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Hmm seems to me, even when you wer compalining about the time spent, I got 2 lines set in around 1/2 hour
> * Yeah, no doubt, the new ways worked very well at times. The complaining came from sticker shock, even though I was usually passing it along to the mostly grateful customers. I had a hard time doing what TD said I had to do; take off the worker hat and wear the overseer hat. Overall it was a great learning experience for me and I think all concerned.
> 
> *And sometimes the old fashioned way is the best way to go. *


And sometimes us dumb old dogs do well to learn new ways so they save some energy and climb into their 80's (my plan).
Thanks y'all for comin' down heah!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 23, 2003)

*Overall it was a great learning experience for me and I think all concerned.* 

I learned how far 90ft straight up is when you have to do it several times a day


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## Guy Meilleur (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *
> I learned how far 90ft straight up is when you have to do it several times a day *


Y'all are more used to those big shrubs you call trees in WI I guess.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 23, 2003)

That's a fact jack.

I cam back and looked at some 60 ft spreading Bur oaks and said "those aint big trees!"


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