# Woodland Pro Inject-A-Sharp carbide chain for milling?



## Brmorgan (Apr 11, 2010)

I had never browsed Bailey's carbide chain selection before tonight, and lo and behold they offer a chain with electrically carbide-impregnated cutters that are otherwise identical to regular chain cutters. I wonder how these would perform for milling? They are semi-chisel, and according to Bailey's they can be filed with a "premium file" so a grinder may not absolutely be necessary. I imagine you would burn through files pretty quickly though. The chain is even available in low-profile, though they're out of stock right now. It's only $0.35 per DL, so it's no more expensive than regular chain at my local dealer's prices. Might be worth trying a loop next time I place an order with them.


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## huskyhank (Apr 11, 2010)

Sounds good to me. The review they list especially interests me since its from someone who milled with it. I may order one to see how it works.


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## mtngun (Apr 11, 2010)

Brad, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'll add a loop of lo-pro next time I order.

Unfortunately, they don't seem to list 3/8 x 0.063". Yet another reason to favor 0.050" bars.


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## huskyhank (Apr 11, 2010)

mtngun said:


> snipped....
> 
> Unfortunately, they don't seem to list 3/8 x 0.063". Yet another reason to favor 0.050" bars.



Well, that takes care of me buying any. 
I run .063 exclusively. Although if its really great stuff that could change.


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## mikeb1079 (Apr 11, 2010)

hmmm....count me as interested as well. please let us know how it performs.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 11, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Brad, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'll add a loop of lo-pro next time I order.
> 
> Unfortunately, they don't seem to list 3/8 x 0.063". Yet another reason to favor 0.050" bars.



I suppose I should post something in the Bailey's forum just to see what Gregg has to say about it, and to find out if/when the LP will be back in stock. If I could have an LP chain with the durability of, say, a .404 cutter, I'd be mighty pleased.

I didn't even notice the "reviews" tab there. Sounds like a ringing endorsement, though.

The lack of .063 doesn't really bother me much. My Stihl bars are either .050 or worn out to .058, and my Husky bars are all .058 with the exception of the long 30" and 33" ones. I don't have a very long bar for the 090 or 084 in 3/8" yet either, but it shouldn't be too hard to find up to 36" in .050 or .058 when I do get one. Longer than that and it gets interesting. I'm most interested in this stuff in LP form anyway - I don't really find durability to be an issue with standard 3/8" semi-chisel chain as long as I'm careful to clean the logs first. I cut considerably more square footage with the LP chain though, and between it not holding an edge as well and having a much shorter cutter to begin with, I'm interested in anything that can maximize the chain life. I realize that since it's 50% more expensive to boot, that it might not end up being any more cost effective when all is said and done, but I'd also consider less time spent sharpening to be worth quite a bit. And I don't even mill very hard wood. This stuff might be the answer to Bob's prayers if it works out. He's the guy who should really test it out!


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## LAndrews (Apr 12, 2010)

I think that it would be ideal if the fine folks at Bailey's (and I am a happy customer - that's not snark) would help us out with a bit more information about the 'impregnation' process. 

I'd offer that surface treatments aren't likely to help much and there aren't many post-processes that can change the material of the stamped steel parts to a significant depth. Unless the 'coating' genuinely penetrates somehow, all it does is add a brittle surface to the outside of the cutter that could make glint more of a problem, not less. 

<shrug> 

I've noticed that chains seem to wear faster once they've been sharpened a few times. Seems that once the hard surface is gone, the meat of the metal is softer stuff that deforms much more easily.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

Well I don't think it would stand up to major abuse like hitting a nail or a rock much better than regular chain, but it might help a lot with cutting dirty logs or really hard wood. Worth a try for the price difference anyway. Not like $2+/DL for full carbide!

FWIW cutters on regular chain are already Chromed, so I don't foresee it being a lot different in that regard. We shall see.

So you grind your chains? If you heat the cutters up too much it'll soften the metal. I've never found my chains to dull any faster after being hand-filed right back to the marks, but I only file. If you file too deep though it'll create a really narrow cutting edge that will dull noticeably faster.


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## LAndrews (Apr 12, 2010)

I think what I was getting at is that I'd expect that the original surface to last pretty well, but it might not be significantly different after a couple of sharpenings since the properties of the core will start to overshadow the properties of the surface. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_hardening

Oh, and yeah, I usually use the dremel bits to do sharpening as I'm still a bit clumsy with a file. It's entirely possible that I'm overcooking things...will have to pay close attention. Thanks for the tip!


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## stipes (Apr 12, 2010)

*Thanks for the heads up on that Brad....*



Brmorgan said:


> I had never browsed Bailey's carbide chain selection before tonight, and lo and behold they offer a chain with electrically carbide-impregnated cutters that are otherwise identical to regular chain cutters. I wonder how these would perform for milling? They are semi-chisel, and according to Bailey's they can be filed with a "premium file" so a grinder may not absolutely be necessary. I imagine you would burn through files pretty quickly though. The chain is even available in low-profile, though they're out of stock right now. It's only $0.35 per DL, so it's no more expensive than regular chain at my local dealer's prices. Might be worth trying a loop next time I place an order with them.



I wonder if they ment the outside impregnated with carbide,as a coating,,or tru and tru....I havent read the specs. for it and will,,,sounds great....If it's just a coating,,,as on the outside of the cutters,,welll,,,I dont know...


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## mtngun (Apr 12, 2010)

It's just a coating. 


> _We take standard full comp 38RC saw chain, and impregnate each cutter with titanium-tungsten carbide using high voltage electricity. The result is an outer coating of small carbide chips on the cutter. _



Coating or not, if it lets you mill longer, and if it doesn't cost that much, it might be worth it.

It'll be a while before I order it and test it, but I'll keep you guys posted. The lo-pro will be a good test because it seems to dull faster than regular chain.

A little googling turned up a similar product being sold at a couple of places -- for quite a bit more than 35 cents a link -- including .325" x 0.063". 

Rapco sells a carbide coated chain, too, that may be what the Bailey's stuff is.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

The way I look at it is this: The reason they started Chroming cutters in the first place was for increased durability; Carbide is harder than Chrome, so I can't see any downside unless it does make the cutter itself more brittle (and it remains to be seen whether that would even be an issue unless the cutter encountered metal etc. anyway). One thing that could be a factor is whether the coating makes the surface of the cutters rougher or not; more friction could be bad.


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## bobsreturn (Apr 13, 2010)

i have a few carbide tipped chains that i use to cut up hardwood burls ,some of the best ones have ant tracks in them mostly sandy dirt that blunts a standard chain in about 1/4 inch. use a lot of oil and hose the burl down , but its great burl so worth the trouble . the chain is expensive ,but only way i have found to do the job cheers bob from down under


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## BobL (Apr 13, 2010)

bobsreturn said:


> i have a few carbide tipped chains that i use to cut up hardwood burls ,some of the best ones have ant tracks in them mostly sandy dirt that blunts a standard chain in about 1/4 inch. use a lot of oil and hose the burl down , but its great burl so worth the trouble . the chain is expensive ,but only way i have found to do the job cheers bob from down under



Carbide tipped cutters are very different from carbide coated cutters. The coating just makes it a bit harder than the Cr. If it was too hard it could not be sharpened with a regular file.


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## Can8ianTimber (Apr 13, 2010)

I have bought 2 loops of the carbide impregnated chain from baileys and I have not been impressed. I did not see much improvment from regular cutters. I bought these for making the butt cut real low to the ground where it is always dirty. It may be that I am using these for dirty situations and that is why they dull fast.

I almost bought some for milling and then I was talking to the guy at balieys and he told me they were slow. I responded with "so would they be good for milling" and he said definitly not. The reason is the impregnating process makes the outside of the cutter very rough, like sandpaper and that slows it down in the cut. A crome coating is going to be smoth and not increase resistance in the cut. I guess if there was a carbide coating that was smooth it would be good.

My search from there took me to Rapco which is a 20 minute drive for me and they sell directly to the public. The problem is their solid carbide tipped chains are Crazy expensive even when bought direct. Also if you hit a large nail you are likely to screw it up anyways and then you have just damaged a $200 - $300 chain. Eventually I came to the conclusion that I needed to learn how to sharpen a chain well (still working on that) and just buy reg ripping chain.

Hope this helps.


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## stipes (Apr 13, 2010)

*Carbide coating,,and carbide inserted chains...*



Can8ianTimber said:


> I have bought 2 loops of the carbide impregnated chain from baileys and I have not been impressed. I did not see much improvment from regular cutters. I bought these for making the butt cut real low to the ground where it is always dirty. It may be that I am using these for dirty situations and that is why they dull fast.
> 
> I almost bought some for milling and then I was talking to the guy at balieys and he told me they were slow. I responded with "so would they be good for milling" and he said definitly not. The reason is the impregnating process makes the outside of the cutter very rough, like sandpaper and that slows it down in the cut. A crome coating is going to be smoth and not increase resistance in the cut. I guess if there was a carbide coating that was smooth it would be good.
> 
> ...



I was wondering about that too,,with friction,,and also once you get past the coating after a few sharpenings how soft is the under laying metal...I used alot of end mills with nitrate coating,,but once that wears off,you end up with a end mill that is hhs after re grinding...Some cheap cingcom stuff once it wears off you might as well toss it.....I have some Cleveland end mills I used since the 1980's and they are hhs,,and still cuts like brand new...
The cost for the carbide insert chains,,,you can buy alot of Woodland pro chains for that kinda money...Solid carbide is great,,but cant take shock..As you said,,one nail,,and alot of money shot in a instant...


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## Brmorgan (Apr 13, 2010)

stipes said:


> I was wondering about that too,,with friction,,and also once you get past the coating after a few sharpenings how soft is the under laying metal...I used alot of end mills with nitrate coating,,but once that wears off,you end up with a end mill that is hhs after re grinding...Some cheap cingcom stuff once it wears off you might as well toss it.....I have some Cleveland end mills I used since the 1980's and they are hhs,,and still cuts like brand new...
> The cost for the carbide insert chains,,,you can buy alot of Woodland pro chains for that kinda money...Solid carbide is great,,but cant take shock..As you said,,one nail,,and alot of money shot in a instant...



How do you "get past" the coating? It's over the entire top and side of the cutter, so no matter how far back you file it'll be there. It isn't on the "face" or bevel of the cutter.

Can8, that addresses the one major concern I had about the stuff that I voiced in post #12 earlier. As I suspected, really - even by looking at the photo the cutters looked a fair bit rougher than normal. Sounds like it wouldn't be worth it for us everyday folks who work with "normal" wood, but people milling beach logs or extremely hard wood might still see an advantage with it.


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## stipes (Apr 13, 2010)

*I just dont know my friend...*



Brmorgan said:


> How do you "get past" the coating? It's over the entire top and side of the cutter, so no matter how far back you file it'll be there. It isn't on the "face" or bevel of the cutter.
> 
> Can8, that addresses the one major concern I had about the stuff that I voiced in post #12 earlier. As I suspected, really - even by looking at the photo the cutters looked a fair bit rougher than normal. Sounds like it wouldn't be worth it for us everyday folks who work with "normal" wood, but people milling beach logs or extremely hard wood might still see an advantage with it.



With something being sold as coated,,that means you only have a few thousands on a inch of the hard stuff,,,then the under layer is what worries me...If,,I mean if it's carbide impregnated inside and out,,that would be sweet,,but in this real world,,,I dont ever see that happing unless someone gotta magic guru stuff going on with metals..
What i ment by coating,,,,the layer that all around is hard,,but it'll wear and then you have to get past that coating....Thats where things gets balls to the wall...I'm kinda confused cause being a machinist,,I never heard of anything that has carbide mixed with HHS tru and tru...Please dont think I'm giving ya a bad time,,I aint,,but if you wanna buy a loop and try it,,let us know how it does,,and how long it last...Good luck on this and let us know how it turns out......


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## DRB (Apr 13, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> How do you "get past" the coating? It's over the entire top and side of the cutter, so no matter how far back you file it'll be there. It isn't on the "face" or bevel of the cutter.
> 
> Can8, that addresses the one major concern I had about the stuff that I voiced in post #12 earlier. As I suspected, really - even by looking at the photo the cutters looked a fair bit rougher than normal. Sounds like it wouldn't be worth it for us everyday folks who work with "normal" wood, but people milling beach logs or extremely hard wood might still see an advantage with it.



Hum, beach wood? Maybe you would not have to sharpen after every pass?:monkey:


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## Brmorgan (Apr 13, 2010)

Heh I was thinking of you as I typed that...


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## jdrum (Apr 13, 2010)

i think what they have done is the same kind of thing deeprock did with their drill bits for drilling wells. they coat the ends of the drill bits with a flux then heat the bit up to a temp and then stick the bit in some granular carbide and the carbide welds it's self to the bit. 
i think the carbide is not in the cutter steel, but just a coating of fine dust on the outside.

jim

for those that haven't heard of them.
deeprock is a co. that builds small portable drilling rigs for DIYERS like us for drilling water wells and small time core samples and such.


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## mtngun (Apr 28, 2010)

Got a loop of lo-pro injecta-sharp on its way. Weather is not cooperating, though. Forecast calls for snow every day this week. Some years I can't get to the woods until June.


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## gemniii (Apr 28, 2010)

Heck, yesterday (April 27th) I just got a foot of snow on my land in Fletcher, Vermont.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 28, 2010)

I love El Nino! Snow was gone here over a month earlier than last year and I was milling two months earlier.

You must be getting the remainders of the snowstorms that have been hitting the passes east of Seattle.


I eagerly await the results of how that chain performs. Hopefully it gets there soon.


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## mtngun (May 3, 2010)

Received the lo-pro injecta-sharp. 

Looks just like the ads. Coating is only on the top and side of cutter. On a few cutters, the coating is missing in a few spots. 

Cutters are slightly shorter than on Carlton ripping chain. I'm guessing the cutters are resharpened after the plating process, so that would explain the shorter length. By the time you regrind it to 10 degrees, it will be shorter still.

Injecta-sharp on left, Carlton ripping chain on right.





The chain tension adjuster snapped on my 066 today, so it'll be a while before I can run this chain.


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## Brmorgan (May 3, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't bother re-grinding to 10° with that LP semi-chisel, or if you do, just do it gradually as you need to sharpen. I've done many passes with both 10° and stock 25° on the same chain and would be hard pressed to tell the difference in the cut smoothness.


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## huskyhank (May 3, 2010)

Yeah, try a cut with it the way it came. You can change the angle later.


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## mtngun (May 3, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> I've done many passes with both 10° and stock 25° on the same chain and would be hard pressed to tell the difference in the cut smoothness.


I can see a difference in smoothness, but I am a cheapskate and will not grind the chain any more than necessary to keep it sharp.  I'll gradually change the angle a few degrees each time it needs to be resharpened. 

Meanwhile, I won't be able to do any direct comparisons in cutting speed. I think the best way to test it is to take it out in the field and mill with it, see how many passes it makes before it has to be resharpened.


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