# Young one seeking advice...



## SoiLLclimber (Oct 19, 2011)

So I want to break into the tree business. Now, before I am stoned for being a newb, let me 
clarify some things. I have read the threads that I have found on here about starting a new
business. However, they just don't seem to fit my situation. I have 3 years of groundie 
experience and 1.5 years climbing experience (however I am lacking on my firewood 
experience...lol...what I gathered from other posts). I live in a very rural community. Less 
than 9,000 in my town and about 22,000 in the county. There are already 3 tree companies in the area. One company is fairly legit while the other two...well, that's another post. I know 
everyone says get experience but I want to get the right experience. Do I have enough to 
go it on my own? I already own saws and climbing/rigging equipment outright. I have 
performed removals for family and friends. I also went ahead and got insurance to cover 
myself for those jobs. There are no big reputable companies around to hire me and the 
smaller ones have turned me away. I am at a crossroads and need advice. Any and all help 
would be greatly appreciated.


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## Zale (Oct 19, 2011)

IMO, if you start your own company now, you will starve. Move to the big city where there are people with money.


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## Soilarch (Oct 19, 2011)

I second what Zale says.

I have no experience in running a Tree company but as luck would have it I finally landed a job doing line clearance after trying to start/run a service business for about 10 months. (Unrelated, sharpening.) It just comes down to population density. I'm from Saline County if your familiar with my neck of the woods. Southern Illinois just doesn't have the pop density for most service businesses to start up. Sustaining the established is completely different than nourishing the up and coming. 

For the record, I never had an un-pleased customer. Most were repeat customers towards the end and nearly ALL new customers were by word-of-mouth. I do it on the weekends now. 

...of course it may have been a different story if my truck and all my gear hadn't been stolen two months in:taped::taped::taped:

I'm not saying throw the idea out the window, NEVER do that! What I would suggest is keep on doing your research, keep on adding to your experience and background and keep this plan in your back pocket. You will never never NEVER have done too much research or acquired too much experience to start up your own gig.


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## serial feller (Oct 19, 2011)

I'd say you can go for it if you are confident (not cocky) of your skillls. HOWEVER... in a community that size with competition you will not be able to make a living. What you are going to get is weekend and after hours jobs. There's nothing wrong with that if it does not interfere with you full time gig. I say that because your full time job should take priority; gotta pay the bills right? If you know your game and taking the extra odd job helps you to better your situation, then you come out a winner. It's either that or seek a better market. Good luck to you!


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## troythetreeman (Oct 19, 2011)

if you can do any job, which includes bid and sell it, youre ready
there are pros and cons to running your own show
i did for a while, actually much happier now working for a good company, less stress, less time invested
you will need to find more people tho
be small, start part time, build a client base and a name
dont go into debt
dont be the cheapest, be the best
dont, i repeat, do not, hire your friends or try to work with your spouse/gf


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## SoiLLclimber (Oct 20, 2011)

I greatly appreciate all the advice. At this current time I am unable to move to a larger area 
that would allow for greater clientel. I guess I am just looking for the perverbial 'foot in the 
rear'. I have had jobs in which I got the job over the bigger company but was still competitive with them...didn't lowball. Maybe another deciding factor is I am having an extremely difficult 
time finding a job. Or maybe I'm just fishing. I own all of my saws,climbing/rigging gear, and rakes, shovels, etc. And by own, I mean not bought on credit or having to make payments on 
them. Zero debt. A trailer would be the big purchase for me. I guess I just want some 
opinions from the seasoned vets out there.


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## mmoxe (Oct 21, 2011)

That's good.......


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## Kottonwood (Oct 21, 2011)

If I were you I would start doing your own thing part time. Get one groundie/helper and some low budget equipment. Maybe a dump trailer instead of chipper to start. Keep your overhead LOW. Build your skills, find a niche. If you are good at large removals or fine pruning you could always sub out to the other guys when you don't have enough work on your own. Sounds like with your setting you are gonna need to invest a couple years doing it part time before you have enough of a client base to do it full time..... Nothing you can do if there just isn't enough work. You could always do something else simultaneously ie hauling or firewood sales depends on your equipment and resources. Hell, I know a guy that got his home inspector license to keep him busy in the winter, not a bad idea. Think outside the box.


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## Kottonwood (Oct 21, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> if you can do any job, which includes bid and sell it, youre ready
> there are pros and cons to running your own show
> i did for a while, actually much happier now working for a good company, less stress, less time invested
> you will need to find more people tho
> ...



I say to start out you need to be the cheapest and the best. As far as hiring your friends. Three out of six of my employees were my friends first. It has worked out great for me, I pay them well and can trust them to not screw me over. They legitimately feel bad if equipment breaks or jobs don't get finished on time. Everyone has a company credit card and I don't worry about it at all. I look forward to training them more and molding them for better positions as my company grows. I hope to still employ them in 20 years. Working with your spouse/gf is just silly unless she is doing some behind the scenes stuff.


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## SoiLLclimber (Oct 21, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO: I too think it is wise to start part time however I am struggling to gain a full 
time gig that can be my main bread winner. I have a great groundie, my brother. Now I know people say it's bad to hire family but he knows knots and saws and can drive and back trailers and is someone I can hold accountable but someone I can trust to do the job right. The trailr
I would like is a dump trailer. I have been borrowing a sketchy one to get me by for now.


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## jpdocdave (Oct 21, 2011)

I know virtually nothing about running a tree business, but what I do know, from managing businesses, is that there are tons of guys, that are very good at what they do, can't run a business.

Make sure you understand business, overhead, what it costs to do a job, no, what it really costs......and what you have to make. There are guys that are swamped with work, and losing money. It's hard to understand, but people with no business education do it all the time. My advice is make sure you understand business, and also risk analysis. 

I saw someone on a thread getting made fun of for trying to calculate what it costs to run their saws per hour over projected service expectancy. Sorry to say, that was a business man. Your saws are paid for, how long will that be? You can't operate your business from the first day you open as if your saws are paid for. 

You know trees, make sure you know business. Good luck.

P.S. I've also learned from managing business pretty well......I don't want to own my own business, and maybe not ever, or not for a long time right now. You have to plan to lose money at times, it will happen bottom line, and most businesses do not turn a profit for the first few years.


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## troythetreeman (Oct 21, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> I say to start out you need to be the cheapest and the best.


 
disagree, but im also familiar with denver, i wish more cities would regulate tree work on a level par with there
no where else im aware of does tho
where im from i see a half dozen idiots a day on the road running to the city in beat up trucks "tree service" on the side, pole saw and ladder hanging over the tail gate and ricketty trailer in tow on their way to earn the next 3 days meth money
the customers looking for the lowest bid arent the ones you want, you want the ones who want to hire the best guy for the job because theyre the ones that are going to hire you again as well as refer you to friends, family and occasionally, large commercial jobs
you cant be the cheapest and grow too
not where im from, your equipment is all going to be junk and youll starve all winter
ive had a couple customers go to lengths id consider unreasonable to track me down to work for them again
ive had salesman come back and say i got one little removal to look at, i get to the yard and the customer shouting, "troy! i need my whole yard done"
had customers come running out of the house to meet me half way down the driveway, "man am i glad to see you, i had to hire a different company to remove a little tree but ive been hoping yould come back because i have a bunch of other stuff i really want done"
and like was mentioned above, im not a great business man and im really not very good with people
sales is one thing, telling an employee the same thing the third time in one day or every other morning and i get pretty short


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## SoiLLclimber (Oct 22, 2011)

Well definitely appreciate all the advice. Another question that is on my mind is licensing. I 
know there are states that have arborist laws but as for now I only do removals. Does Illinois have this law? I have done some searching and am having zero luck finding any. Also, being
bonded and/or insured? I have seen companies that are just insured or have both. Is that
more dependent on the size of your company or state/local laws?


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## troythetreeman (Oct 22, 2011)

a company that has "fully bonded" on their fliers or trucks make me laugh a little, and sort of piss me off
bonding is a kind of insurance policy generally reserved for large jobs, the bond company insures the customer against your failure to complete and picks up the slack if the next bid is higher
no one is bonded unconditionally for every job
insurance is a _must_
it is a good idea to bond a few jobs tho to build a rep with the bond company that they will bond you for larger jobs if thats a condition of getting the contract


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## SoiLLclimber (Oct 27, 2011)

What about arborist laws in Illinois? I know there are some states that have them but I am 
having trouble finding any for Illinois.


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## troythetreeman (Oct 27, 2011)

i guess i would ask local municipalities, couple cities in minnesota have regs, no state laws tho beyond DOT, but if you talk to the city they should tell you what all you need


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## TreeFrogTC (Nov 4, 2011)

Start small for sure, you have a lot of good info in the thread allready, one thing you could do on jobs you are unsure of is offer an hourly rate that way you cover your ass if you underbid. Be the best but dont be the cheapest thats the last thing this industry needs is some bonehead underpricing jobs driving everyone down with him. This is dangerous work are you willing to risk life and limb for peanuts. Read up and become an ISA or comparable organisations member. Going to trade shows also helps.

I started my business at the age of 18 in 2002 with a shovel and now have/had 8 staff 5 seasonal 3 full time and still live relatively paycheque to paycheque by choice because I keep reinvesting in the business when I can afford it(I love fresh paint especially red!). The one thing I wish I would have been wiser on in the early days is to know when to say no to jobs too big for you to handle due to either lack of experience or equipment kinda hard to say no to a big job though.

As for hiring friends and family it really depends on the person and how well you work together vs their relationship to you.


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## k5alive (Nov 7, 2011)

word of mouth is a big thing fora small company, i get most of my work through customers talking to friends, relitaves, co-workers ect. it doesnt hurt to start small.


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## SoiLLclimber (Nov 7, 2011)

Greatly appreciate all the advice. I am definitely starting small. Sine starting this thread, I have been pretty busy which I'm loving. So this leads me to two other questions. The first is concerning trailers. Would it be better to buy a trailer and fab wood sides to make a trailer that can haul all my debris or should I just go and get a dump trailer now? Secondly, I'm looking for a big saw to use in the tree. Right now I am using what I already own which is a ms391. I know it's only a mid range saw and want a pro model. I would like some opinions from those out there that have experience. I'm open to any advice. Looking for a lighter saw that still has the guts to do the job. Thanks again for all the advice.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 7, 2011)

How much you want to spend?
Jeff


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## TreeFrogTC (Nov 7, 2011)

I run stihl ms 260 and 270 in the tree for a mid range but the ms200t does most of the work then the ms440 for the bigger stuff. 

As for trailers I bought a 12' single axle a few years after starting out and it now serves as a ranger and trailer crew for jobs not worth bringing the chipper to. Its low and easy to load and off load we didnt put sides because to unload it we just roll everything off but honestly I think a dump trailer would serve you better and for longer I borrow one from another arborist when I really need one. Your dump trailer will grow with your business and help grow it, definitely a good asset. Start saving for a chipper!

Encourage word of mouth, dont offer anything just mention that you would really appreciate referrals to help grow your business. Remember good work speaks for itself be maticulate, make perfect cuts and do a good clean up, cleaner then when you got there. It costs you more to go back after getting an angry call.


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## SoiLLclimber (Nov 7, 2011)

Well if I spend some money I would rather drop it on a saw right now. I have use of a relatives trailer and that is working extremely well. So I am looking to invest a nice chunk of change in a saw. I feel if I just go part way I will be itching and wishing I had more power or ability of a bigger bar if ever needed. I still wanna stay light but need guts. So to answer your question, I have money to spend.


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## SoiLLclimber (Nov 7, 2011)

TreeFrogTC: I definitely agree with leaving it cleaner than when I got there. I had one HO come up to me and started giving me grief because his wife was going to expect the yard to always be that neat. He was giving me a hard time all in good fun but it dedinately made an impression with them. At this present time all of my jobs have been strictly by customer referral. And the jobs I have coming up are the same also. And I've already got a piggy bank that's holding my chipper funds. Haha!


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