# Chain for cutting extreme hardwood, and saw



## cgraham (Nov 10, 2010)

I recently scored the cylinder of my 10 year old 18" Husky 345 firewood and all-purpose saw, cutting very dense, seasoned, 16" Salt Cedar (tamarack), one of the hardest woods in the U.S. 

My fault, the chipper chains (Oregon and Stihl) I used dulled very fast, and I pushed them and overheated the bar, transferring excess heat to the engine (I think). I have a mechanical sharpener now, so no more dull chains!

My shop says the saw (no compression, also needs new bar) is not economical to repair - true? I certainly don't have the skills or inclination to do the work. The saw is otherwise in good shape (new drive sprocket). They won't take it in trade.

I liked the weight, reliability and easy starting (cylinder decompressor) of that Husky (I'm not getting any younger) and would replace it with the similar 445 (11 lb powerhead) without hesitation if it were not for the salt cedar which is great firewood, and the occasional need to quickly clear my bridge of it after flash floods in my creek bottom here in the desert SW.

I really don't think the answer is to get a much more powerful saw: the 345 drove the chipper OK until the chain dulled. But I'd like to get opinions on that view before a purchase. Rather, I think I need a specialized chain that cuts more wood before premature dulling.

Question One: what type of chain (tooth) would be best suited to extreme hardwoods with 18" chain? (The Husky candidates run a .325 chain.) Perhaps a particular tooth profile (chisel, semi chisel?) will cut for longer without sacrificing cutting speed. I think there may be some tooth contours that enhance cutting hardwoods but I have not found details.


The most obvious factor that influences how a tooth holds its edge and how well it cuts, providing it is not allowed to overheat, or the saw to overload, is the quality of the steel or other material. I read that some brands are superior - which? Expensive carbide chains are impractical (sharpening difficulties) and slow.

Some tooth variations such as low profile and skip chains, only dull slower because they cut slower: the net result would seem to be that the same amount of wood is cut more slowly before the chain dulls. I don't see how a narrow kerf makes a difference: a narrower tooth cuts less width at the same depth and so will dull at the same rate. All these mods do is reduce the load on the engine, good for a long bar on logs bigger than I cut. If saw power is not the problem, how will they help? 

I ran across this quote "you downset the raker different for hardwood than you do for soft wood". What does that mean and is it useful? I'm guessing it means a shallower cut, in which case it is covered by the above paragraph.


Question Two is whether I am correct that I don't need a more powerful saw. I frequently see the 50cc Husky 386XP recommended here (for $80 more than the 445), but no reason given - nor does Husqvana explain the advantages of the XP series. Well, its a PRO saw - what does that mean? At 50cc it is 32% more powerful than the 445, a big gain, but 8 oz heavier: if the greater hp yields more efficient cutting for me, an acceptable trade off. I'm not convinced engine power is my issue because a sharp chain does not bog, but I'm open to suggestion.

I should mention I am not considering other brands of saw at present due to dealer availability in this area, lack of desired features on comparable Stihls and the fact I have a number of new chains for a Husky.

Thanks for comments, Charlie


----------



## dingeryote (Nov 10, 2010)

Welcome to the fray!!

Too bad about your old saw. 
Also it's too bad you don't have an inclination to rebuild it, as that would be the cheaper way to go.

It sounds like you smoked the bar with a lack of oil and a dull chain.
That kinda sucks.

Where to start...

Semi-chisel chain seems to be the best balance of speed and durability in dirty gritty hardwoods and holds up well enough in Osage and Hornbeam.

Pro saws(XP) have split magnesium cases, allowing for rebuilds without spending more than a new saw. They have stronger and more precise components that are more durable than the homeowner models, and in general have a higher power to weight ratio than homeowner saws.
You get what ya pay for in other words.

You stated you weren't really looking for a larger saw, but logic dictates that you are pushing a 50cc saw into the realm of 60-70cc saws, and it would be a false economy to trash another 50cc saw.
Yeah, a good 50cc pro saw will put up with the abuse but they have thier limits.

Have you looked at the Husky 359?
They are priced around the same area as a 346XP, feature pro saw contruction, and it's hard to find anybody that dosn't like thiers.

Also look on the trading post here for solid used pro saws.
If you're gonna beat the hell out of a 50cc saw, it might as well be used and economical as well as solid.

Good luck to ya!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


----------



## leeha (Nov 10, 2010)

+1
I totally agree.


Lee


----------



## Slamm (Nov 10, 2010)

We cut dirty hard wood all day long and we use Stihl Semi-Chisel (Round tooth) in full skip.

We love it and will never purchase Chisel chain again.

Sam


----------



## CGC4200 (Nov 10, 2010)

*extreme hardwood*

I have a woodlot with shagbark hickory, semi-chisel seem to last longer on
the armored bark hickory trees; think our Aussie friends like it for their tough woods.


----------



## willsaw4beer (Nov 10, 2010)

Stihl rmc is impressive in terms of holding up to dirty wood. 3 sharpenings got me through 5 cords of mud caked red oak and sugar maple whereas round chisel didn't even get a cord done before going dull.
I always thought chipper was obsolete dirty wood chain? In clean hardwood round chisel (rsc/lpx) lasts me awhile even with the rakers on the combi gauge 'softwood' setting.


----------



## Kenskip1 (Nov 10, 2010)

*345*

Charlie, I have to chuckle. that you overheated the bar and transferred to the engine. Anyway, in my opinion a 18 bar should be the max for your saw.My 445 has a 16 BC and it pulls a Baileys 325 Woodsman Pro, with out any problem.You did not mention the diameter of the logs you were cutting.Many others will make mention of the Husqvarna 346NEXp as the way to go.But remember that this is still only a 50cc saw.Yes their are other makes out their but go for a brand that has good dealer support, Ken


----------



## John R (Nov 10, 2010)

Stihl makes a carbide chain, not sure what saws they'll fit, but should hold up the task your using it for.


----------



## jimdad07 (Nov 10, 2010)

You have so many options and combinations for what will work for you that it is hard to choose one. I think that if you are going to buy a new saw, I would look at professional grade all the way. There are some pro saws that you can get for about the price of what you will pay for a Lowes Husky, so why spend $400 on a homeowner saw when you can spend that and get a pro saw? As far as buying a saw goes, there are some great deals on used pro grade saws that run just as well as the day they were first started. There are a lot of us here, including me, that are sporting a few used pro saws for some pretty heavy use. I do have a pro saw that I bought new and I love it too and use it more than any of them, but my used saws work great and one of them I bought for $40, the Dolmar I spent over $500 on. As far as chain goes, a semi-chisel seems to work well for dirty wood, but no matter what chain you buy, keeping them sharp and making sure the oiler is working properly is what will make the difference in the effort you have to put into cutting. You should not have to push on the saw to make it cut, the saw should do the work for you. If you are starting to push on the saw to make it cut, sharpen the chain. Good luck


----------



## willysmn (Nov 10, 2010)

*chain for hard wood.*

IF you scored the cyl , I don't see how heat from the bar could have contributed to it. More likely you just pushed the saw too far with a dull chain and not enough oil lubrication. This site can help you rebuild the saw if you need to do that. Lots of help from the best in the country. A used saw from this site (tradin post) will save some money and allow you to get an excellent quality saw. Chisel chain is not good for dirty wood. We cut Juniperwith th eshaggy bark that accumalates sand in the wind here in NM and the pointy chisel s dull too fast. There is a carbide plated chain that is about 40 bucks a chain, but I dont know if a diamond file is required to sharpen it. Diamond is requied for the solid carbide cutters like firemen use.
Thats pretty good size salt cedar. Apple that has died in the orchard is also very hard.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 11, 2010)

Many thanks for the detailed and helpful replies! Please keep them coming.

A bit more background: I probably cut about a cord or a little more mixed woods annually to supplement my passive solar home. Last year I cut more salt cedar than usual - perhaps 1/3 cord, max 16" (18" bar). This stuff has always been hard to cut, but last year was worse. In retrospect I think the bar has been deteriorating so that the chain does not ride level. I would file it occasionally but just learned that I can peen it to restore the correct width groove (too late now for this bar). 

I know all the signs of a dull blade but just got so frustrated at the rapid dulling that I stupidly tried pushing it. I could not restore sharpness with a file (never have been much good with one, in spite of all the lessons posted here and elsewhere). So I bought the Chicago grinder for this season. I won't know how good it is until I get a saw that cuts 

_"IF you scored the cyl , I don't see how heat from the bar could have contributed to it. More likely you just pushed the saw too far with a dull chain and not enough oil lubrication"._

I'm going for a second opinion on the cylinder and cause of the problems in in a minute. It was just my assumption that piston damage was due to bar overheating as I had no other explanation. I always ran 1:50 oil/gas per manual, and did not run out of cutting oil.

I'm still not convinced that the engine was overworking, because the cutters, when dull, would just skip over the hardwood making dust; certainly the friction and heat created smoke. When the chain was cutting well, the saw did not show signs of bogging. 

However, I am wiling to go up to the 234XP 18" Husky to be on the safe side, which will increase power by about 30% (hp, not capacity). Not familiar with the 359 - will have to research.

It looks like better chain and bar care will help a lot, plus using semi-chisel chain or trying other suggestions here.

Many thanks again, I'll be back after I study the thread some more and get back from another shop.

Charlie


----------



## Zombiechopper (Nov 11, 2010)

Carlton/Woodland Pro semi-chisel


----------



## Zombiechopper (Nov 11, 2010)

Oh, for the saw- go 70cc with an 18" 

for super hard wind battered oaks I usually use my ported MS460 with 16" bar and Woodland pro 3/8 semi-chisel full comp with a 7 pin rim


----------



## Coloradobum (Nov 11, 2010)

cgraham said:


> I'm still not convinced that the engine was overworking, because the cutters, when dull, would just skip over the hardwood making dust; certainly the friction and heat created smoke. When the chain was cutting well, the saw did not show signs of bogging.
> 
> Charlie



The dust part makes me think maybe your rakers are too high? Just a thought....


----------



## sunfish (Nov 11, 2010)

I cut mostly standing dead oak, hard and mostly dry, 15 +/- cords a year. Rough on saws and chains. 

I use Stihl RMC or Oregon simi-chisel chain on a 10 year old 346xp 90% of the time. 
Works great for me!


----------



## crashagn (Nov 11, 2010)

If i seen you typing correctly- You bought the Chicago grinder? The 1 from HarborFreight?

http://www.harborfreight.com/electric-chain-saw-sharpener-93213.html

I got 1 out in the shop that I will no longer touch. Only tried using it 3 times i think. Will not hold the correct angle. has a wobble on it. The only thing its currently good for is...well collecting dust. I would strongly advise on how to hand file...Your chains will last longer.


----------



## willysmn (Nov 11, 2010)

*chain for hard wood.*

I don't know what a 234xp goes for ,but there is a nice looking 359 on the train post.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 12, 2010)

More great comments and suggestions: thanks.

Meanwhile I got back from a very interesting meeting with a knowledgeable saw mechanic who actually cuts wood (he owns about 13 saws).

He pointed out something the first tech did not see: the piston is discolored on both sides which indicates burning. He suspects a bilateral leak in the crankcase housing seal which would admit air: causing the engine overheating. A bilateral leak is very rare and he thinks it is due to a factory defect that became evident very slowly and independently of the chain problems, although the loss of compression aggravated them. 

On the subject of rapid chain dulling, he suspects that the problem is due to the exposure of the Salt Cedar to floods. Rolling around in the creek bottom during floods causes sand to be ground into the surface. Wind-blown sand is also often blown into the bark in the desert. He recommended full-chisel chain as being the the best for these conditions, but admitted that it dulls fast too. A chrome plated chain holds up better, but is no better after sharpening. A full chisel is not a low-kickback chain. I have to look into the other chains suggested here.

The tech does not think that insufficient power is a factor in poor cutting, except for the loss of compression. Combination of sand and a worn out bar is sufficient explanation.

My saw cuts tend to curve off to the right. I learned that righties tend to wear the bar on the right, causing this effect.

Given these conclusions, I will be able to get by just fine with a new model 450 or possibly a 346XP, which is still 50cc, (5cc more than the old saw, but 23% more hp) if I want to spend about $160 more on a more powerful professional model for "insurance". The 346XP is available with the tri-break system which seems like a nice safety device - a second safety break just in front of the right hand which is an additional protection against kickbacks (it seems to me more easily activated by a kickback than the froward brake. It also can be conveniently used to lock the chain when moving around.

I am satisfied by the explanation of problems. It will be refreshing to start over with fresh equipment. Either saw should last for as long as I am going to be cutting wood if I look after it properly. Oh, and the Chicago sharpener? Some love 'em, some hate 'em. Probably depends if you are a whiz with a file. I am not. But that's another thread.

Charlie


----------



## trailmaker (Nov 12, 2010)

Stihl makes three carbide chains. One is specifically for rescue operations while the other two are for wood cutting. I believe the two for woodcutting are less expensive than the rescue chain. I haven't used them but they might be good for your situation. They can only be sharpened with a special diamond wheel.
http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/types.html


----------



## MCW (Nov 12, 2010)

willsaw4beer said:


> I always thought chipper was obsolete dirty wood chain?



Nah chipper still available from Carlton. Good stuff when the conditions are super grubby  Cuts about 10% slower than semi chisel but lasts probably twice as long between sharpenings.


----------



## willysmn (Nov 12, 2010)

*cahin for cutting dirty wood*

Charlie,
I agree with the diagnosis of the engine. It is also very true that if the wood, either salt cedar, cedar, or Juniper is where the sand blows, the shaggy bark makes it tough to cut and requires frequent sharpening. Any logs that have rolled in the dirt are no fun to cut and harder on your equipment too. The right chain cutter type is important.
Sounds like you have gotten to the bottom of this. Good!


----------



## cgraham (Nov 12, 2010)

Jimsdad7 said: You have so many options and combinations for what will work for you that it is hard to choose one. 

SO RIGHT! Here is a summary of all the CHAIN suggestions from this thread. I'm still not sure which to choose for sandy hardwood.

The overwhelming preference is semi-chisel; 2 like Stihl RMC (I don't know what the cutter profile is).


There is an interesting chain that WillysMN brought to my attention. Baileys Woodlandpro 30SC (Inject-a-sharp) chain with cutters electrically impregnated with titanium-tungsten carbide. Rounded semi-chisel cutters. Only in 0.375 (3/8) pitch x 0.050 (1.3mm) gauge. "A great chain for casual users as well as professionals working in dirty cutting conditions. This chain will not cut as fast as chisel chain, but it is much more forgiving if it contacts abrasive materials like dirt and sand. Works well in both hardwoods and softwoods." And it is not much more expensive than regular chain. 

It sounds ideal except it does not fit the .325 bars on the saws I favor. Unless the Husky 450 or 346XP can be modified to accept a 3/8 bar (can they?) I would have to go up to a Husky Rancher or 359, or a Stihl - the Huskies are 2 lb heavier - not welcome. 

Anyone have experience of this chain's performance? Does it lose its qualities when sharpened?


_Wisdom learned: All other things being equal - 
A chain that dulls half as fast may only cut half the amount of wood. No advantage.

Generally the chain with the most cutters (cutters close together and/or long bar relative to the work) will stay sharp the longest; this may be convenient, but you will have just as many teeth to sharpen in the end. To put this into perspective, if a chain on a 16" bar lasts for 4 minutes a 20" bar will add one minute.

These facts make comparisons difficult._

Charlie


----------



## Cliniford (Nov 12, 2010)

The 346xp can be converted to 3/8 very easily. Just have the dealer change out the rim. Did that when i bought mine since i try to keep everything 3/8 to simplify and for cost saving as i buy chain in bulk rolls.


----------



## hybridkarpower (Nov 13, 2010)

Sam, are you referring to RMF or RMC chains ? 





Slamm said:


> We cut dirty hard wood all day long and we use Stihl Semi-Chisel (Round tooth) in full skip.
> 
> We love it and will never purchase Chisel chain again.
> 
> Sam


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 13, 2010)

cgraham said:


> [snip]
> 
> The overwhelming preference is semi-chisel; 2 like Stihl RMC (I don't know what the cutter profile is).
> 
> ...



RMC is Stihl's semi-chisel profile.

As mentioned above, you also have 'chipper' chain, which is even more resistant to abrasive wear than semi-chisel, but only Carlton still produce it.

Here in Australia abrasive, hard and dense timbers dominate and it appears most of our stuff is tougher than virtually anything normally cut in the US.

We tend to use semi-chisel or chipper on most everything and swap chains a lot.
In semi-chisel take your pick from Carlton, Windsor or Stihl, they all work well and are a much of a muchness in terms of life and speed, with the Stihl being the smoothest in the cut and the Windsor probably the easiest to file. 
Carltons chipper or 'S' chain the is next step as Matt mentioned before heading for carbide chain.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 13, 2010)

Cliniford said:


> The 346xp can be converted to 3/8 very easily. Just have the dealer change out the rim. Did that when i bought mine since i try to keep everything 3/8 to simplify and for cost saving as i buy chain in bulk rolls.



I may follow Cliniford's advice and get a 3/8" bar so I can use the carbide impregnated cutters. I assume by changing the "rim" he means the bar. Do I need a different sprocket too? If so it will be a permanent conversion from .325 to 3/8, not just swapping bars at will, I guess.

I think 3/8" means the links are slightly longer that .325, so I suppose the load on the engine should be reduced a little, unless 3/8 comes with larger cutters. I noticed 3/8 tends to be associated with saws over 50cc (Stihl and Husky anyway - with a few exceptions). I wonder what the reason for this is and if I am missing something. In other words, any downsides to 3/8 on a 346XP 18" bar? 

Thanks for the chipper suggestion, tdi-Rick. My dealer always answered he was selling me chipper chain when I needed a replacement. Since it was labeled Sthil or Oregon, I begin to doubt: right now I'm looking at an Oregon with 25 inscribed on the raker and 21 on the drive link; based on my limited knowledge I think it is a semi-chisel. I'll look into getting a Carleton chipper before changing to 3/8 pitch.

Charlie


----------



## MCW (Nov 13, 2010)

cgraham said:


> I may follow Cliniford's advice and get a 3/8" bar so I can use the carbide impregnated cutters. I assume by changing the "rim" he means the bar. Do I need a different sprocket too? If so it will be a permanent conversion from .325 to 3/8, not just swapping bars at will, I guess.
> 
> I think 3/8" means the links are slightly longer that .325, so I suppose the load on the engine should be reduced a little, unless 3/8 comes with larger cutters. I noticed 3/8 tends to be associated with saws over 50cc (Stihl and Husky anyway - with a few exceptions). I wonder what the reason for this is and if I am missing something. In other words, any downsides to 3/8 on a 346XP 18" bar?
> 
> ...



When Cliniford mentioned changing the "rim" he did mean the sprocket. You need a different sprocket to go between .325" and 3/8" chain. Just like you have to change your bar (unless you're using a hard nose). Changing a rim sprocket isn't permanent. All you have to undo is the circlip, swap your old rim sprocket back and you're using .325" again 
3/8" does come with larger cutters than .325" and will be harder to pull all things being even (raker height etc).
I think some guys in the states refer to semi chisel as chipper but that's not the case at all. Chipper has a far more rounded cutter profile.


----------



## Zombiechopper (Nov 14, 2010)

the term chipper does get tossed around here when I think folks mean semi chisel but I have actually seen it on old saws on farms around here. I have 1/2" chipper on my David Bradley that came from a barn. Very rounded profile


----------



## dingeryote (Nov 14, 2010)

cgraham said:


> I may follow Cliniford's advice and get a 3/8" bar so I can use the carbide impregnated cutters. I assume by changing the "rim" he means the bar. Do I need a different sprocket too? If so it will be a permanent conversion from .325 to 3/8, not just swapping bars at will, I guess.
> 
> I think 3/8" means the links are slightly longer that .325, so I suppose the load on the engine should be reduced a little, unless 3/8 comes with larger cutters. I noticed 3/8 tends to be associated with saws over 50cc (Stihl and Husky anyway - with a few exceptions). I wonder what the reason for this is and if I am missing something. In other words, any downsides to 3/8 on a 346XP 18" bar?
> 
> ...




Do yourself a favor and don't bother with converting to 3/8.
It's a wasted effort unless you're gonna mod the saw for cutting cookies.

Also don't bother with the injectasharp. It holds up about as well as Stihl semi-chisel and no better. The carbide particles are held onto the cutters with an epoxy coating that wears faster than the chrome that supports the cutting edge, and does nothing to support the "Beak" at the corner where the real problem is.

Sand, like the Beach sand and sandy loam we have here gets into the bark and the silica gets into the wood proper, and rounds the edges.
Starting out with a rounded corner(Beak) that will cut delays the overall dulling. The "Beak" on chisel chain getting just slightly rounded will end the cutting. 

Ya gotta use the file in the field if you're gonna get anywhere cutting the stuff I do, and from the sounds of it the stuff you are into.
Not letting the things go dull in the first place.

Just a couple of passes on each tooth will do it unless you rocked the chain or shoved the tip into the dirt.
The depth guides from Stihl that simply clamp onto the file work great and are fast with semi chisel, just match the angle and take a swipe.

Good luck to ya!
And don't overthink things.
Folks have been cutting dirty, sandy, hard wood for years now.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


----------



## MCW (Nov 14, 2010)

Here you go.

Chipper on the left, semi chisel in the middle, and full chisel on the right...







Full chisel left, semi in the middle, and chipper on the right...






Full chisel top, semi middle, and chipper bottom...






The full chisel pictured is Oregon LGX and both the semi and chipper are Carlton.


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 14, 2010)

Can't get any clearer than that Matt. 

Charlie, this http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf is one of the best reference publications you can read on saw chain, types, sharpening and how it works.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 14, 2010)

Mates, I really appreciate you staying up all night  writing this valuable advice from your (truly) great store of experience :wave: 

As an expat Brit, who once associated with a truly wild-crazy Auzzie, I have a special appreciation for the national character, big-hearted and ready for anything. Australia is a great country I never had the pleasure of visiting. I'd love to see you blokes felling one of those huge hardwoods with those huge bars! 

Dingeryote, those photos are exactly what I needed! I couldn't find anything similar. Thanks! They tell me I am using a semi-chisel; I'll make sure I get Stihl next time and give it a go, but I'd like to find a cheaper alternative if there is an equivalent one. I will also try Carleton chipper, said to be more abrasion-resistant than equivalent quality semi-chisel. 

According to everything I have read, the Inject-a-sharp is coated/impregnated using an electrolytic process, so the bond should be better than epoxy. On the other hand I did run across a magnified illustration of it - it looked like flakes adhered to the surface - and the author noted they flaked off. No disagreement here in principle, especially about the beak. The few opinions are very mixed.

I have decided not to convert until I test a new 50cc Husky, bar and optimal .325 chains, and then only if all else fails (I was considering buying the saw set up for 3/8 to save the cost of converting later). One of the reasons for this decision is that my old bar groove is splayed wide so the chain does not stand upright, but wiggles around, and all of my used chain has rivet wear after only a couple of sharpenings: one 2/3-used chain has about 1/32" of wear between two adjoining rivets (I don't know what normal wear would be). These factors, plus imperfectly sharpened, less than ideal chain, may have caused my problems more than the sand presumed to be present. So I need to re-evaluate with good equipment and technique.

A clean start should tell me a lot if I pay attention, and test systematically. I know a little about chain care in the field, although there are times frustration has driven me to ignore it. I know a great deal more now, thanks to the good people on this thread. My only difficulty is hand-sharpening, which I never mastered after 40 years of occasional cutting. I'm not sure if I have the patience to try again. I guess I can try to touch up machine-sharpened cutters in the field, but I'll probably just swap chains at the first sign of dulling (I will have several) - I'm more interested in reducing total cutting time and effort (age, you know) than in maximizing chain life.

Rick, the e-book you recommended is a real gem: thanks! It has everything in one place that I have found in bits and pieces elsewhere, and much more. Really well written! I'll be printing a copy for the shop. Do you use the Carleton sharpening system or their chains?

*I have another 2 questions:* (collective groan). My blown Husky 345 manual says that the bar accepts any of the following drive links: .050, .058, .063. I don't know if this will be the case for the next saw. I just measured two chains: one runs about .046 (Oregon mentioned in earlier post), the other (no name) about .026. Both were supplied by a supposedly competent shop. What gives? I would have thought there would be a narrow range of acceptable tolerance in order to help keep the chain upright and reduce uneven wear on the rails (if indeed, that is one of the functions of the drive links - it is the other side of the coin of the rails being excessively separated, allowing the chain to wobble - so I'm told).

The Carleton e-book suggests changing sprockets every chain or so. I never heard of such a thing. Isn't that a bit excessive? How about changing based on wear: how much is acceptable?

I wish you could have one on me: Cheers 

Charlie


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 14, 2010)

Charlie, the Carlton File-o-Plate is a great gizmo and a better alternative for filing the correct raker/depth gauge height than anything sold by Stihl or Oregon, although some of us think the depth gauge height it arrives at is a little wimpy for high powered saws.

There is a great thread started by BobL on the FOP and what is the correct cutting angle of the cutter tooth.
A really informative read.
I'll dig up a link.

The FOP's only downside is that it kills files if you are a bit heavy on the stroke.

Husky has a roller guide/combi guide that works in a similar fashion to the FOP and has the advantages of the FOP without the disadvantages, (it has rollers the file slides over instead of a hardened plate)
A really neat bit of kit.
While designed for Husky (Oregon) chain, it seems to work well with my Carlton and Windsor 3/8 chain.

Vallorbe make a clamp on file guide (the file clamps to the guide) that holds the file in a better position IMO than the Oregon or Stihl equivalents. It gives you a slightly more aggressive, factory type hook, the other two have the file sitting too high in relation to the cutter, unless you bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape on the file.

Re chain gauges, in 325 and 3/8 you have 050, 058 and 063.
Each chain _must_ match the bar, if you run a 050 chain in an 063 bar the chain will wander all over the place, cut crooked and wear the crap out of the drive dogs and bar groove.
In other words, you select your gauge to match your bar/s and what is common you area. eg here, Stihl are all sold with .063" and Husky .058" bar and chains. In the US .050" seems to dominate most makes and areas. 
The rims will drive any of the three gauges, and you can swap bar/chain gauges and keep the same rim between them all.

Yes, swap the rim on wear, you get a feel for how far is too far from looking/checking it.

[edit]BTW, the Battle for the Ashes starts here soon, and your mob may be holding onto that little urn for a bit longer, but we'll see how things are going at the end of the Fifth Test  (I live in hope)


----------



## cgraham (Nov 14, 2010)

More great info, Rick: thanks!

I would like the BobL FOP link. I'll look up the Husky ver. and the Vallorbe guide. Here is a bit of Australasian (or should I call it decadent dialect  - better not) that needs translation: "bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape".

I had forgotton that the drive link thickness is the guage and that the bar and chain must match in gauge. A closer look at my manual suggests that the stock equipment was 0.050 which is what the ~0.046+ links I measured on several chains must be, nominally.

I see now that the manual is saying that three different chain/bar guage combinations are acceptable. I don't remember if I ever replaced the bar and was handed a different guage, nor can I say what the guage of the present bar is, because I left it at the new shop. But the fact that I have two .058 chains too means I was sold chains without being asked what the guage was (and I didn't know enough to tell them - hey they have my saw on their computer and can look it up!) No wonder my bar groove is spread and the saw won't cut reliably. Why are there 3 almost identical guages anyway: I guess they are associated with different width cutters. but I can't find anything on that? I'm glad I found a new shop with a good tech, not to speak of you guys! 

I can't believe the multiple issues that have surfaced during the course of this thread. It will be a really good resource for future reference by others.

Thanks again: have another 

_*Virtual beer sucks*_

OT: _"BTW, the Battle for the Ashes starts here soon, and your mob may be holding onto that little urn for a bit longer, but we'll see how things are going at the end of the Fifth Test (I live in hope) "_

Your lot had 'em too bloody long. We urned 'em and we are going to keep 'em. Good luck all the same  (but not TOO good)  

Charlie


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 14, 2010)

If your shop saw your chain, it isn't hard to identify what gauge you have depending on what brand you have. That said, its also the easiest and most common screw up. The cutters on all 3 gauges, in each profile, are the same, in other words a cutter on a .325 chain in .050 is the same as one in .063. I would look at cutting as narrow a kerf as I could in that stuff, and with as short of a bar as I can get by with. IMHO, if you're staying with that size saw, 16" is ideal. I detest .325 chain, but run what you like in .050 if its handy.


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 15, 2010)

cgraham said:


> [snip]
> 
> I would like the BobL FOP link. I'll look up the Husky ver. and the Vallorbe guide. Here is a bit of Australasian (or should I call it decadent dialect  - better not) that needs translation: "bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape".
> 
> ...



Oops. 
A bit of Aussie slips out now and then :monkey:

If something is 'bodgie' it is suspect or not very good (quality)

'To bodgie' something means to do a shonky repair 

leccy tape = electrical tape









> _*Virtual beer sucks*_
> 
> OT: _"BTW, the Battle for the Ashes starts here soon, and your mob may be holding onto that little urn for a bit longer, but we'll see how things are going at the end of the Fifth Test (I live in hope) "_
> 
> ...



As i said, we'll see


----------



## MCW (Nov 15, 2010)

cgraham said:


> Here is a bit of Australasian (or should I call it decadent dialect  - better not) that needs translation: "bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape".
> Charlie



Hey don't worry about Rick's language. He tries to act like a true outback cattle musterer or Crocodile Dundee occasionally but he actually sounds quite articulate and educated on the phone. Every now and then he just acts a bit feral to gain back some street cred 

Hi Rick


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 15, 2010)

Charlie, here's Bob's thread on cutter angles, a bloody good read.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=114624


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 15, 2010)

MCW said:


> Hey don't worry about Rick's language. He tries to act like a true outback cattle musterer or Crocodile Dundee occasionally but he actually sounds quite articulate and educated on the phone. Every now and then he just acts a bit feral to gain back some street cred
> 
> Hi Rick





We're a feral lot with a pretence to culture (or is that just eccentricities ?) around here.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 15, 2010)

Rick & MCW: Thanks for Bob's link, Rick. I haven't looked at it yet, but if you recommend it, it will be {bloody} good, and will go into the file with the others. 

I had a feeling I should have guessed "leccy", but bodgie" is a new one. Oh, thanks for "shonky" - also new.

You should add this to your sig, Rick: "As i said, we'll see " Then you won't have to keep typing it 

****************************



> Originally Posted by MCW
> Hey don't worry about Rick's language. He tries to act like a true outback cattle musterer or Crocodile Dundee occasionally but he actually sounds quite articulate and educated on the phone. Every now and then he just acts a bit feral to gain back some street cred.
> 
> 
> ...




Hey - I like a little color, MWC. I think Rick has it right - adopted a few cultured eccentricities (but not many). Don't spoil our mental image of him! I bet his avatar is actually him! Anyway, he is a good ol' boy :biggrinbounce2:

One more time 

*Virtual beer is flat.* 

Charlie


----------



## cgraham (Nov 15, 2010)

8433jeff said:


> The cutters on all 3 gauges, in each profile, are the same, in other words a cutter on a .325 chain in .050 is the same as one in .063. I would look at cutting as narrow a kerf as I could in that stuff, and with as short of a bar as I can get by with. IMHO, if you're staying with that size saw, 16" is ideal. I detest .325 chain, but run what you like in .050 if its handy.



Jeff: that's handy cutter info. I got my chains sorted out with a micrometer now, but I don't see the reason for 3 different guages in .325 (unless it's just "history"). It just seems to make life more complicated for manufacturer and consumer. Maybe there is a practical reason - I can't find it. Somebody here knows?

I agree the less kerf, the less sharpening. I don't really understand why wider kerfs are needed, unless on softwoods that swell when cut - but the chain is larger so what is the difference in clearance?

Why don't you like .325 compared with 3/8? I could have my saw set up as 3/8 if I had a good reason - but I'll get a wider kerf, and I'm left with good .325 chains. 

A longer bar than my max 16" logs ensures that I get a full cut, and the extra length delays dulling very slightly. Any bar that projects uses very little energy. I use 18" (which will be driven by a 385xp - 3.7hp) - not enough length difference to argue about, plenty of power. You don't prefer to cut from both sides, do you? I don't know how much extra load is put on the saw and bar when the nose of the bar is buried, but the second cut is certainly easier.

My main objection to too long a bar on small work is that it is harder to stay clear of other logs, and danger of kickback from them is increased. Advantages (if you are a 1 saw man like me) - versatility, and greater reach.

Charlie


----------



## Preston (Nov 15, 2010)

Well now, I've seen something here that should aughta get me called stupid. On my 034 I put a 20" bar and I have a chisel chain. The chisel cutting edge has squared edge. Here's the bad part. I've been sharpening the chain with a round 3/32 round file. Looks like I should be using a square cut bastard file. Man, if this is so,no wonder I've had so much of a problem for the last 20 years getting the saw to cut like I know it should. Non of these saw shop mechanics around here have ever said any different. Whenever I put on a new chain, wow do I go to town. It ends there.

Do I ever fill like a dummy. Tell me it ain't so, and don't lie to me.

pt


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 15, 2010)

Preston said:


> Well now, I've seen something here that should aughta get me called stupid. On my 034 I put a 20" bar and I have a chisel chain. The chisel cutting edge has squared edge. Here's the bad part. I've been sharpening the chain with a round 3/32 round file. Looks like I should be using a square cut bastard file. Man, if this is so,no wonder I've had so much of a problem for the last 20 years getting the saw to cut like I know it should. Non of these saw shop mechanics around here have ever said any different. Whenever I put on a new chain, wow do I go to town. It ends there.
> 
> Do I ever fill like a dummy. Tell me it ain't so, and don't lie to me.
> 
> pt



Files for a 3/8 chain are 11/64, or 3/16. Files for low profile 3/8's are 5/32. If you're filing correctly, the round file will sharpen even a square ground chain, and the question I have is are you filing the depth gauges at all, and correctly if so. Some file new chain to get it sharper, I'm not in that crowd but can get it back to close, if not better than new.


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 15, 2010)

cgraham said:


> Jeff: that's handy cutter info. I got my chains sorted out with a micrometer now, but I don't see the reason for 3 different guages in .325 (unless it's just "history"). It just seems to make life more complicated for manufacturer and consumer. Maybe there is a practical reason - I can't find it. Somebody here knows?



-Longer bars should be thicker, in my opinion. People want to run same gauge throughout the fleet, and what others run so they are not the oddball. My 2 cents.


I agree the less kerf, the less sharpening. I don't really understand why wider kerfs are needed, unless on softwoods that swell when cut - but the chain is larger so what is the difference in clearance?

-A little extra clearance goes a long ways. In your case, the wood is dead so it shouldn't swell a lot during cutting. How the wood lies while cutting is another consideration-wood laying on other wood in a forestry situation I would want a bigger kerf. My wood is cut usually a tree at a time.


Why don't you like .325 compared with 3/8? I could have my saw set up as 3/8 if I had a good reason - but I'll get a wider kerf, and I'm left with good .325 chains.

-I would use what you have if it makes sense. I run 3/8's on everything but my 026, and when the bar was used up, I changed that over to 3/8's. Same with my JD CS56, it came with .325 and I used it, it wears 3/8's now and cuts as fast or faster. In my soft hardwoods (soft maple, basswood, more boxelder than I wanted but if they fall over, you clean them up) .325 was not faster. Of course it makes a difference if you have the one chain and bar, and they are used up, or a bunch of good chains.


A longer bar than my max 16" logs ensures that I get a full cut, and the extra length delays dulling very slightly. Any bar that projects uses very little energy. I use 18" (which will be driven by a 385xp - 3.7hp, not enough length difference to argue about, plenty of power. You don't prefer to cut from both sides, do you? I don't know how much extra load is put on the saw and bar when the nose of the bar is buried, but the second cut is certainly easier.

-I thought you cut with a 346, 16" on a 385 is for racing, not getting something done. Its always better to cut through, rather than bury the tip, in my opinion.


My main objection to too long a bar on small work is that it is harder to stay clear of other logs, and danger of kickback from them is increased. Advantages (if you are a 1 saw man like me) - versatility, and greater reach.
Charlie

-Yes, I agree.


----------



## Preston (Nov 15, 2010)

Yeah Jeff..........I've cut the depth gauges down to a 32" below the two adjoining cutting tips. I've always cut by hand with a file and a gauge. I just never seem to get the chain cutting as good as it should. To what the new one cut's anyway.

Thanks for your reply.

pt


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 15, 2010)

What size chain? What file? What are you using for a guide, gotta have a guide before you freehand, that is for the pros and no pro I know does it without a guide. A thirtysecond ain't much, try about .030 in softwood. One of them File-o-plates from Carlton is OK, I have a couple from Oregon but the hookup is from Huskavarna, a roller guide. Will have one soon...If you think its sharp, and you might be doing everything right, and its not feeding then the gauges are too high. Its a science, but not Saturn V rocket science, with the right tools.


----------



## Orange Hill (Nov 15, 2010)

I really like .325 Stihl RM chain it holds up well in dry wood. I saw that you were looking for a safety chain. The RMC3 is the safety version of the RM/RMC and for a safety chain is cuts very well and is quite sooth running. I have been cutting storm fallen hardwood trees from last year. The oak is not so bad, it is the eucalyptus that is the problem as they have embedded sand and will throw sparks from the chain while cutting even after stripping the bark. A second problem with the blue gum bastards is the fibrous nature of the bark builds up in the bar groove and the nose sprocket. I always carry a 5-in-1 painters putty knife to clean out the groove, nose sprocket, and oil ports. I find I need to clean the bar several times a day to keep it lubing properly. Cedar also has a fibrous bark that may also be fouling your bar causing excessive heat. Also you can not use cheap bar oil in these woods. I was trying to use up some cheap oil that I picked up from Tractor Supply and it was way too thin and the bar and chain got really hot and I had to de-gunk the resin off the chain and bar. Stick with Husky, Stihl, or Motion Lotion quality summer weight heavy bodied tacky oils. Also be sure to flip your bar over every so often to maximize it's life. I also have a hard nose bar for extra fibrous/dirty wood. I would also recommend letting what ever saw you use to cool off after each tank of fuel because of your extreme duty cutting. You could use this time to touch up your chain and clean your bar. Also make sure your buddy tunes you new saw as all new saws come lean is stock form. A slightly rich saw will run cooler.

As a default it seems most Husky chains are .058 gauge, Stihl's tend to be .063 in .325 and usually .050 in 3/8". It is said that wider gauge chains carry more oil, and I think there is some truth in that. Stihl chains have larger oil grooves then most chains and I do like them better in dry wood because they also seem to have harder cutters. 

Also time is running out on most of the current 3 series XP saws. You should really think about that 346XP is you want to stay in the 50cc saw range. Since you are cutting very hard dry wood chain lubrication is critical. I would recommend a pro saw over a land owner grade just for the extra level of oiling these saws generally put out.


----------



## MCW (Nov 15, 2010)

8433jeff said:


> Files for a 3/8 chain are 11/64, or 3/16. Files for low profile 3/8's are 5/32. If you're filing correctly, the round file will sharpen even a square ground chain, and the question I have is are you filing the depth gauges at all, and correctly if so. Some file new chain to get it sharper, I'm not in that crowd but can get it back to close, if not better than new.



File sizes used for 3/8" chain are 13/64" and 7/32" 
Stihl recommends 13/64" and others recommend 7/32".


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 15, 2010)

cgraham said:


> [snip]
> 
> Why don't you like .325 compared with 3/8? I could have my saw set up as 3/8 if I had a good reason - but I'll get a wider kerf, and I'm left with good .325 chains.
> 
> ...



.325 isn't as bad as everyone makes out.

Case in point, the Post Rip is the money event at Australian chainsaw races and _everyone_ uses .325 chain on an 18"or so bar with either a 2100/3120 or 084/088/880 powerhead.

Some even use .325 chain in the speed (cross-cut) events, (although I don't believe they are the blokes winning) so the increased cutter numbers and smaller kerf may be an advantage in harder than nails timber.


----------



## Preston (Nov 15, 2010)

The chain I'm using has for a depth guide a piece that looks kinda like a backwards cutting tooth. It's not just a little protrusion sticking up. There's a lot of metal to shape for the depth. I use the flat gauge for that part and one of those guides with a wooden handle for the cutting teeth. I believe the angle for the cut is 30 degrees. I don't do anything with this saw by guess. I'm the same way with torque wrenchs. They're made for a reason, so I use um for that reason.

pt


----------



## cgraham (Nov 15, 2010)

Orange Hill, I appreciate the comments: good advice.

I plan to try the .325 Stihl RM chain as soon as I get a new saw. I have been without a saw for a week now  but gotta do the research!

Not sure what you meant by _"Also time is running out on most of the current 3 series XP saws. *You should really think about* that 346XP if you want to stay in the 50cc saw range." _ You mean don't get one because they are nearing obsolescence, or do buy it while still available??? 

The 386XP is popular, and in short supply right now due to high demand, I read. I don't think they are about to be discontinued - with no equivalent replacement in sight. 

Actually I'm not looking for something in the 50cc range: I don't think that is the right way to look for a saw. I'm looking for a Husky in the 11 pound, 3.5 hp+ range. The only matching professional model happens to be the 346xp at 50cc. The new 562xp specs nice, but not here yet, no reports and way too expensive. It will replace the 357 I expect (also unaffordable).

Charlie


----------



## BlackOakTreeServ (Nov 15, 2010)

John R said:


> Stihl makes a carbide chain, not sure what saws they'll fit, but should hold up the task your using it for.



Yes, what he said.......good for stumps, dirty roots, ect. ect.


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 15, 2010)

Preston said:


> The chain I'm using has for a depth guide a piece that looks kinda like a backwards cutting tooth. It's not just a little protrusion sticking up. There's a lot of metal to shape for the depth. I use the flat gauge for that part and one of those guides with a wooden handle for the cutting teeth. I believe the angle for the cut is 30 degrees. I don't do anything with this saw by guess. I'm the same way with torque wrenchs. They're made for a reason, so I use um for that reason.
> 
> pt



Sorry about the 11/64 and 3/16's earlier. 3/16's is for .325.
OK I'm betting its made by Oregon, should be stamped in the side, unless it has a big H, then its still made by Oregon for Huskaroo. Make sure you are filing from the inside out on the gauges, keep it sloped away from the cutter (not flat or sloped back) and a 1/32 ain't near enough. According to my pocket guide, the cutter is filed at a 25 degree angle, with a 10 degree upslope with a 7/32 file. I believe what you have is Vanguard chain, and its a great chain when new, but needs aggressive gauge work as it wears. 460 Woodchuck sent me some he square filed on a saw I traded for, and it cut like crazy. Its now hanging on a nail, awaiting the next project saw.


----------



## RTK (Nov 15, 2010)

cgraham said:


> Actually I'm not looking for something in the 50cc range: I don't think that is the right way to look for a saw. I'm looking for something in the 11 pound, 3.5 hp+ range. The only matching professional model happens to be the 346xp at 50cc. The new 562xp specs nice, but not here yet, no reports and way too expensive. It will replace the 357 I expect (also unaffordable).
> 
> Charlie



The Dolmar 5105 is a nice saw at a good price that mets your specs. It would be worth considering.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 16, 2010)

Preston said:


> Yeah Jeff..........I've cut the depth gauges down to a 32" below the two adjoining cutting tips. I've always cut by hand with a file and a gauge. I just never seem to get the chain cutting as good as it should. To what the new one cut's anyway.
> pt



Preston, have you read the *thread* referenced by tdi-Rick in post 28 above, on progressive filing depth guages ?


Charlie


----------



## MCW (Nov 16, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> .325 isn't as bad as everyone makes out.
> 
> Case in point, the Post Rip is the money event at Australian chainsaw races and _everyone_ uses .325 chain on an 18"or so bar with either a 2100/3120 or 084/088/880 powerhead.
> 
> Some even use .325 chain in the speed (cross-cut) events, (although I don't believe they are the blokes winning) so the increased cutter numbers and smaller kerf may be an advantage in harder than nails timber.



Racing aside Rick get a few loops of .325", go find your nearest dead termite filled Yellow Box tree, run it side by side with 3/8", then tell me .325" is OK in that situation. It'll look like the leading edge has been smashed with a hammer in half the time of 3/8".

In green or cleaner wood fine, but when the going gets tough she won't hold up well at all compared to 3/8". The difference is like 3/8"LP compared to .325", or 3/8" to .404", or .404" compared to 3/4" (OK, the 3/4" analogy is a stretch)


----------



## Preston (Nov 16, 2010)

Thanks Charlie.......I just read it, and re-read it. What an article. Now I gotta see if the chains I've bought over the years even match my drive sprocket. After reading the article I see I have not maintained the saw nor the chains like I should have. Do I have some checking to do. After reading the article I'm supprised the saw and chain haven't blow up in my face. And to think this saw is 22 years old with a damned old fool running it. And it still runs like a screaming banshee. The 035 AV's are pretty sturdy saws. I've never taken to saw in to a shop to be worked on, it's never needed it. If something broke, I fixed it. Reckon I need to have it look at. This is incredible.

Thanks Jeff and Charlie. You've been great, and patient to a 67 year old saw virgin.

pt


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 16, 2010)

I never learned much when whoever was teaching was screaming at me. When they took me aside and said "hey, no no. This is how to do it" without causing a big scene, sometimes I took it to heart.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 16, 2010)

Preston said:


> Thanks Charlie.......I just read it, and re-read it. What an article. ... After reading the article I see I have not maintained the saw nor the chains like I should have. Do I have some checking to do... And to think this saw is 22 years old with a damned old fool running it.... Reckon I need to have it look at. This is incredible.
> 
> Thanks Jeff and Charlie. You've been great, and patient to a 67 year old saw virgin. pt



No problems mate.... Crikey, I'm getting infected! 

I initiated this thread, which has turned out to be the most informative of any on any forum that I have ever read, thanks to the generosity and wisdom of some outstanding members. So if I can pass a gem on, received from Auzzie tdi-rick, it is the least I can do. Thank Rick!

My saw history and ignorance is much the same as yours, except this damned old fool has been doing it wrong for more like 40 years!  :bang: It goes with being an occasional user. 72 is a bit late to learn to do it right, but better late than never as I'm buying a new saw!

I'm probably going to pull the trigger on a 386 XP this morning. Then I can order some gadgets and play with the chains, putting the new-won knowledge to work.

Good luck with your own experiments: why not post the results? If you start a new thread, please PM me.



Charlie


----------



## Preston (Nov 16, 2010)

Thanks a big bunch Charlie.........I'll do just that.

pt


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 16, 2010)

cgraham said:


> No problems mate.... Crikey, I'm getting infected!
> 
> I initiated this thread, which has turned out to be the most informative of any on any forum that I have ever read, thanks to the generosity and wisdom of some outstanding members. So if I can pass a gem on, received from Auzzie tdi-rick, it is the least I can do. Thank Rick!
> 
> ...



I'm just paying it forward Charlie, I've learnt a stack from people like Matt (he's my 'dealer' )

We swap info, things we've found etc, as do most on here, it's just that hard, dense and dirty firewood is a bit of an antipodean speciality


----------



## Preston (Nov 16, 2010)

Now if y'all can help me here. I took the chain and bar off, pull the sprocket and cleaned it up a bit. After 22 years of me, the sprocket doesn't look bad at all. But prudence tell me it's worn. The bar has 3/8 on it with a lot of different numbers. The sprocket is 7 tooth with 3/8-7 stamped on it. I assume that means 3/8 chain with a 7 tooth spocket. If I'm correct I'm to use a 3/8 chain but should I change the sprocket with a new chain.

On the guides of the chain on the saw is the stamped number 08, on the chain I bought is 22. What is that telling me.

I'm sorry for highjacking the thread but I hate to just startup another for this little bit of information.

pt


----------



## 8433jeff (Nov 16, 2010)

Preston, need some more info. Is this an Oregon chain? The twenty two is an indicator. All, at least the higher end stuff, is stamped on the driver, the part that rides inside the rail. If you have a sprocket, then you need a 3/8's chain. If you have a rim drive, a ring (rim) that the chain rides in on the drum, you can change that and the bar to what chain you want to use. Yes, swapping whatever drives your chain every couple of chains is smart. Tell me who made your chain, and whats stamped on your drivers, and I can tell you what you have.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 16, 2010)

Preston said:


> but should I change the sprocket with a new chain.
> 
> On the guides of the chain on the saw is the stamped number 08, on the chain I bought is 22. What is that telling me.
> 
> I'm sorry for highjacking the thread but I hate to just startup another for this little bit of information. pt :arg:



No worries, this thread has about 4 interlocking subtopics now, of which your questions are part. 

In answer to an earlier question, someone, Rick I think, agreed that it is not necessary to change out the sprocket every chain or two, but instead examine it carefully and replace when it shows signs of wear. My saw went 10+ years with 1 sprocket change: I changed it belatedly (last year, I think) when the saw got my attention by throwing chains at me. Before that I had never heard of regularly replacing sprockets, or even inspecting them. I supposed they lasted forever, if I ever thought about it (probably not). One of several things the manual did not tell me to look out for.

I'm interested in how to read the numbers too. But you can find out the vital statistics of a chain: bar length, # of drive links, pitch and guage by measuring and counting. For the guage you need a decent caliper, under $25 bucks - you need one anyway. Here is how to determine everything except the type of tooth (for that see the previous page):
[URL="http://www.ereplacementparts.com/article/1507/Chainsaw_Chain_Measurements_Sizes_and_Types.html" [/URL]


I just got home with a new 346XP and a 18" bar :greenchainsaw: :love1: (No TrioBrake or cat.)

Thanks to those who helped me reach this decision :yourock: 
After reading all the warnings in the manual, I'm afraid the 346 will either bite me, or I will hurt the poor thang (especially considering what I did to the last one)  

I'll gather my courage up to start it up tomorrow. Somehow, I have to get 10 hours on it so it is broken in. (Guess I'll just start it up, leave it running, and refuel it once in a while). Then I can do some chain comparisons. 

I'm going to print an on line cc of the manual and some key articles, and keep them in a notebook with RECORDS, so 5 years later I'll know what I did to my saw and chains. (I keep the maintenance checklist, and note of key adjustments in my chainsaw toolbox, along with a package of Quick Clot [URL="http://www.rei.com/product/770185"[/URL])

Here is what I found out today about my old ball and chain. The bar had incomprehensibly been changed at some point from the original .050 guage to .058. While I'm not surprised I had the bar changed, I know for sure no-one told me that now I needed to use an odd chain guage. It explains why I discovered both chain guages in my working collection when I checked as a result of this discussion. (I'm glad I found a new shop and helpful tech - no charge for diagnosis, either; previous shop, $70 to touch it). 

Running too-narrow drive links cannot have helped the bar rails at all. Especially as I also discovered today that they were splayed open to about 0.090 , allowing the chain to wobble around in the kerf even more! No wonder the saw did not cut a, a, a - *damn* my stutter!

Those two problems in addition to the previously disclosed loss of compression, and technique issues! Maybe now I can cut salt cedar after all if I do a better job sharpening the right chain!

This week has been quite a ride!

Keep on hacking! :chainsawguy:

Charlie


----------



## willysmn (Nov 16, 2010)

*salt cedar*

You did well Charlie.


----------



## dingeryote (Nov 16, 2010)

cgraham said:


> No worries, this thread has about 4 interlocking subtopics now, of which your questions are part.
> 
> In answer to an earlier question, someone, Rick I think, agreed that it is not necessary to change out the sprocket every chain or two, but instead examine it carefully and replace when it shows signs of wear. My saw went 10+ years with 1 sprocket change: I changed it belatedly (last year, I think) when the saw got my attention by throwing chains at me. Before that I had never heard of regularly replacing sprockets, or even inspecting them. I supposed they lasted forever, if I ever thought about it (probably not). One of several things the manual did not tell me to look out for.
> 
> ...



Congrats on the New 346!!
You're gonna poop yourself the first time running that saw LOL!!

Just take it out and cut with it to break it in.
Just avoid extended full throttle runs for the first couple tanks and you should be fine. 

They do "Wake up" after 6-8 tanks and you'll notice the difference when it starts to. Sometimes they need a bit of tuning when they do, so don't freak out..they do that and it's normal.

One other thing.
Pics..
You know the rules.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


----------



## tdi-rick (Nov 17, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> Congrats on the New 346!!
> You're gonna poop yourself the first time running that saw LOL!!
> 
> [snip]
> ...



 yep, them's the rules :camera:


----------



## MCW (Nov 17, 2010)

cgraham said:


> I'll gather my courage up to start it up tomorrow. Somehow, I have to get 10 hours on it so it is broken in. (Guess I'll just start it up, leave it running, and refuel it once in a while). Then I can do some chain comparisons.
> Charlie



Nah just thrash the crap out of it from the get go  They love it


----------



## cgraham (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words, gentlemen.

_"You're gonna poop yourself the first time running that saw LOL!!" _

I will dress accordingly for the occasion - I can think of several possibilities. Ever mooned a woodpile?

If you blokes want a picture of an old hairy person questionably dressed standing with a saw that looks just like the one on your dealer's shelf in front of a pitifully small pile of sticks, it certainly can be arranged. 

I didn't get to run the saw today because better 1/2 did not complain about the half grand I dropped, and wants me to take her to the big city for a coupla days to go shopping. She probably thought "perfect timing". Been getting organized, about to leave.

After I get back, there will be a report, and undoubtedly yet more questions. I think this thread still has life in it. Be ready!



Charlie


----------



## sunfish (Nov 17, 2010)

Congrats on a fine saw, Charlie! I just got another one umpkin2:umpkin2:umpkin2:


----------



## cgraham (Nov 23, 2010)

Ah the delights of a new chainsaw! :greenchainsaw:

It was a nice sunny day today so I took Husky out for a run and burned a tank, using the chisel tooth chain it came with, without pushing it too hard (break in, you know).

That saw is hungry, poor thing. I fed it some large, dead aspen, and it gobbled all that, some Salt Cedar (not the thickest, which is buried in the pile) and it burped once, and looked for something bigger, and some mixed, dry woods which it snacked on three at a time.

How wonderful! Tuned for 5500' and started right up, self feeding (no leaning on the saw) did not even have to use the bucking teeth - perfectly straight cuts, no hesitation, never bogged down, cut through 14" dry aspen in a few seconds, no heat, no smoke, no cursing, only had to tension the chain once, the teeth were not appreciably dulled and fed me boots full of curly shavings. 

I finally realized how much work my old saw had become: thank the gods it finally died! Happiness is a new, well-chosen, quality chain saw. and the rapidity with which it can effortlessly reduce a pile of logs to sticks. In a half hour I did what it would have taken 2 hours and 3 tanks with the old one.   (The saw is red, not the face ) 

I did not have time to do the comparison with Stihl RMC chain I had planned. As there was no sign of dulling on the salt cedar, perhaps I don't need it.

I know I promised (was made to promise?) a photo: it will come soon with more questions 

Sincere thanks to those new friends here who helped me make this choice, and taught me so much. Good luck to you all. May your trees fell true, and your logs buck gently.

Now it's time to celebrate! :rockn:

Charlie


----------



## Preston (Nov 24, 2010)

Fantastic Charlie......I almost got the same feeling with just cutting down the depth ears on my old chain. I got into some old white oak and the darn chain just went crazy. That thing bout wore me out. It wanted to cut more wood than I did.

What saw did you end up with? This 034 AV of mine is 24 years old and still digging like a back hoe.:hmm3grin2orange:

pt


----------



## cgraham (Nov 24, 2010)

I finally chose a Husqvarna 346XP, 18" bar, 50cc, 3.7hp, 11lb powerhead, Preston: excellent power to weight ratio, and a well-regarded saw. It cuts wood faster than I can move it out of the way  

Several here and on other threads recommended it over cheaper models and makes of the same capacity (but less hp). For an older guy, the fast cutting, low fatigue factors are a big benefit. I'm gonna take good care of this baby, and watch those chains like a hawk. No more overheating!

I'm glad to hear yours is going great guns, now you are an expert on adjusting rakers. Who made your AV and what hp is it? If you mentioned it, I forgot. Amazing a 24 year-old saw is running so well and never been in the shop. You must be pretty handy with small engines (the chain is a specialty of its own).

Yeah, it's a GREAT feeling when a saw is cutting really well (especially after one that didn't - the guilt of spending the extra bucks went away too )!

Charlie


----------



## sunfish (Nov 24, 2010)

Charlie, very good description of your first experience with a 346. I remember mine well, almost 10 years later. umpkin2:

You like it now, wait until it has a few tanks through it. My new one was a dog, compared to the old one, the first couple tanks. I would have taken it back to the shop, had I not known better.  Now into the forth tank, it's pulling much better. I figure after another 4-5 tanks, it'll catch the old one, might even pass it, but I doubt it, that old saw just screams 

Also, I'm sold on RMC, stays sharper a lot longer than RSC, and still cuts very fast.


----------



## Preston (Nov 24, 2010)

Charlie.....Sthil is the maker of my 034.

Something else I learned this week I didn't know. The gas we get now here in Georgia has the corn mash in it. That stuff is dissipating and leaving a powdery residue in the carb and fuel lines. It's is making a mess of the aluminum and clogging up all the ports. All that can be done for is to replace the card. From this information I would say to use all the gasoline in the saw, or drain the tank and run dry if the saw is going to be left for any period of time at all. Seem like the new government gas is good for the parts folks, but not so good for us.

And expert at filing the rakers, now that's funny. I've been called a professional at a few things, but never an expert at anything.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## willysmn (Nov 24, 2010)

*cutting hard wood*

Hey Charlie,
You went from a Vega or Pinto to a Corvette. Glad you are happy with the 346. You get a lot of good information here. 
I hope you did as well when you were in Los Alamos.


----------



## cgraham (Nov 27, 2010)

I always wanted a Corvette, WillysMN! Yes Los Alamos was great, but I can't tell you about it or they will have to kiil me. 

Here is the promised photo: a larger-than-average salt cedar not intimidated by a Husky 346XP and 18" bar.

I ultimately decided this one would best be used as landscaping.

Charlie


----------

