# Tree problem- need advice



## nofa93 (Sep 1, 2009)

Good morning,

Can you please have a look at the pictures I have taken. This tree is about 35 years old. Although the crown looks pretty healthy, the trunk has opened up and clearly shows decay. Are there any treatments you guys can suggest. I wish to keep the tree but if becomes weaker I will need to bring it down.

Thanks alot,


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## Urban Forester (Sep 1, 2009)

It appears that this tree developed a 'target canker' (google that for an explanation) years ago. Callus tissue (healing tissue) has formed however in the process water has gotten in and allowed decay to begin and continue. I would have an Arborist come out and check the extent of the decay to see if the use of through bolts/cabling is advisable. Without knowing to what extent the tree has been affected by the decay, making recommendations as to what should be done is merely guessing.


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## ATH (Sep 2, 2009)

In my opinion...replace it (NOT with a Norway maple).

A tree this size should be on the upswing, and therefore not a great candidate for "merciful treatment".

If there is not extensive rot there now, it will be in the long-term. Cabling (again, in my opinion) is to help keep a tree around for a few more years, not plan for a long-term future.

If the tree were 32" in diameter and 80' tall, my opinion would probably be different...but the tree is not.

Removing it now will be relatively inexpensive, and you can easily get a replacement tree that is 15-20' tall for a "reasonable" price.

It doesn't look like you have much room there, but it would be nice to get that new tree started now (without rocks piled against the trunk), and hold of on removing this one while the new one gets started.


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## treeseer (Sep 2, 2009)

"A tree this size should be on the upswing, and therefore not a great candidate for "merciful treatment".



"If there is not extensive rot there now, it will be in the long-term.

Yes if the roots are abused--please see Mulching in my sig line 

" Cabling (again, in my opinion) is to help keep a tree around for a few more years, not plan for a long-term future.

Total BS some cables are older than i and i am old.

"Removing it now will be relatively inexpensive, and you can easily get a replacement tree that is 15-20' tall for a "reasonable" price. 

Still adds up to money. Far better to have 1/4 - 1/3 of the branches removed--by a professional who knows--and end the root abuse. Tree may rebound and outgrow the canker.

Good idea to plant another tree!


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## ATH (Sep 3, 2009)

treeseer said:


> ....I said: "If there is not extensive rot there now, it will be in the long-term."
> 
> Reply was: Yes if the roots are abused--please see Mulching in my sig line
> 
> Additional statment to address: Tree may rebound and outgrow the canker.



Treatment of the roots has little to do with the fact that there is currently an exposure of dead wood to decay fungi. Roots cannot protect existing heart wood from decay. The rot is going to start at the injury we see. It may compartmentalize around the exposed area, but there is still extensive damage (relative to the current diameter of the tree). Certainly proper treatment of the rest of the tree (especially roots) will accelerate the growth, but we already see the decay starting in these pictures.

Additionally, there will almost certainly be a frost crack leading back to the current injured area no matter how large the tree grows, so I have my doubts that it will ever fully grow over. We can count all of that exposed wood we are looking at now as gone in the next several (15???) years...

That is all reality.

So it leads me to my opinion: I just don't see this as ever being a good tree. Knowing that, I say start planning for the future now, not banking on a known turd. Again - emphasize this is a matter of opinion that I came to after considering the facts. Others may come to a different final conclusion, and that is fine - I just encourage they do it based on reality, not false hopes.


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## treeseer (Sep 3, 2009)

ATH said:


> We can count all of that exposed wood we are looking at now as gone in the next several (15???) years...


True.

Good post. We agree that planting a replacement is the way to go, and to manage the roots of that new tree so it has a chance. That maple is not getting much of a chance, and yes the canker looks severe (1/2 girdled?)

The current tree can be managed indefinitely, but if and when that is no longer worth it is up to the owner.


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## ATH (Sep 3, 2009)

treeseer said:


> The current tree can be managed indefinitely, but if and when that is no longer worth it is up to the owner.



Yeah...I need to remember: It is most wise to stick to the facts, and let others form opinions. "Worth" is definately an opinion, and mine doesn't matter - the owner's does.


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## treeseer (Sep 4, 2009)

ATH said:


> Yeah...I need to remember: It is most wise to stick to the facts, and let others form opinions. "Worth" is definately an opinion, and mine doesn't matter - the owner's does.


Another good post--just the facts--like Joe Friday says. Hey, it's Friday!


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## Ed Roland (Sep 4, 2009)

Guy, If callous growth in response to wounding can be upwards of 40% stronger than normal wood what about elasticity? Any data on location of this wound response in relation to stem/dynamic load?


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## treeseer (Sep 5, 2009)

woodweasel said:


> Guy, If callous growth in response to wounding can be upwards of 40% stronger than normal wood what about elasticity?


Good question. You could look that up in the Kane study.


> Any data on location of this wound response in relation to stem/dynamic load?


Sounds like two separate processes.


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## Ed Roland (Sep 6, 2009)

I can find data on elasticity of normal wood. Not so much on the elasticity of callous wood. Since a trees ability to bend contributes to it's accepted measure of "strength" I'm just trying to better define thresholds for trees with large callous wound responses. 

Furthering my knowledgebase could lead to PRESERVATION of these candidates over


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## S Mc (Sep 6, 2009)

Nofa93, welcome to the site.

Your little maple has had a rough go of it. I must confess, I would be considering removal. What I see is callus growth producing woundwood but a whole lot more canker. If there were a great deal of callus growth that had produced woundwood with no active pathogen that appeared to be growing faster than the callus then that would be a different story. We have all seen the examples of trees with huge holes, standing for literally centuries. But I don't see that here. The decay we are seeing could be saprophytic only, but the perennial canker is another issue compounding the problem.

I also don't see many options for making the tree's situation better. There is nothing to cable or brace that would mitigate the damaged area or make the tree stronger. Removing the rock and mulching would be excellent ideas, however, that is also not going to solve the problem in this particular situation. The damage has occurred and the tree is not being able to overcome it. So in my mind, why wait? Remove and replant with a suitable and attractive specie.

I am not a big fan of planting a replacement tree prior to the removal of another tree in this crowded of a situation. The competition for light, nutrients and space can inhibit development in the formative years that are so important.

Personally, there is nothing wrong with Norway maples if grown in a suitable environment. You do not say where in Canada you are, but here in a Zone 4 we experience a great deal of rib fracturing on the Norway maple, due to the winter temperature fluctuations, but they survive this phenomena well. If in too hardy of a zone, these trees become invasive. But they have many cultivars that are attractive and hardy and fill a need for those of us living outside the hardier zones where there is more to choose from. 

Sylvia


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## ckliff (Sep 6, 2009)

Easy decision given the location next to CHILDREN'S play equipment.  Need I say more?

Plant something AFTER removal, please. Easier & Cheaper if I don't have another obstacle to avoid when taking out the old tree.


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## arborist (Sep 6, 2009)

*suggest removal as soon as possible.*

yeah,it's not going to ever become a nice tree.norways are tuff.but this is asking allot for a little tree.they grow fast anyway if you want another one.
this ones a goner.if it was an older one,and not around a child's playing area then sure ok,id suggest lighting the thing up hard and keep it for awhile longer.(you can really prune these things hard.)
this tree is not a candidate for preservation due to its young age,(best to plant another one and start again this early in the game)and location(you don't want this to harm or kill a child.no tree's worth that.)
norway is pretty soft wood.even if left,and for some odd reason the cambium had a chance to close this wound,(very doubtful) this server wound certainly would never compartmentalize,thus resulting in a larger(by that time)tree with more weight,sitting on a decade trunk,that's if it stayed standing(again very doubtful).
basically,this tree's simply not worth it.to far gone.replant time.
suggest removal as soon as possible.


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## clearance (Sep 6, 2009)

ckliff said:


> Easy decision given the location next to CHILDREN'S play equipment.  Need I say more?
> 
> Plant something AFTER removal, please. Easier & Cheaper if I don't have another obstacle to avoid when taking out the old tree.



Thank you, common sense is not yet extinct.


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## treeseer (Sep 7, 2009)

ckliff said:


> Easy decision given the location next to CHILDREN'S play equipment.  Need I say more?


Yes, you do, or say nothing at all. :spam: There is a lot more to tree risk management than scaring clients. 

Yes this infection is major and removing is a good option, but heavy pruning, plant a replacement, and remove in a few years may also work. Guying to ground anchors could also prevent failure onto the patio/play area.

Would your kids rather play in sun or shade?

Do you send your kids to the playground when there is a storm?

That little tree can be taken down easily (by a professional) in a few years even with a young tree nearby.

Nofa, next tree you get, please take care of the roots.

O and weasel that article has the info you seek. Look it up!


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