# Decisions



## WV Wildman (Feb 21, 2010)

I've been reading non stop here and still cant decide the route I need to take. 

I intend on milling some lumber but not boards, mainly slabs 2 to 4 inches and beams/mantles. This wont be a job or source of income but merely a foray into something to keep me occupied. 

The trouble I am having is deciding on whether to go the CSM route or buy a bandsaw mill along the lines of the Woodmizer LT-10

I have a 20 inch Alaska Mill and looking at a Stihl 460 for the CSM. If I go the CSM route I intend on picking up a 18 inch bandsaw for resaw work which will cut into the price difference by $800

Price difference is ofcourse roughly $2000 ($1200 if I buy a shop band saw for resaw) between the two choices but I can swing it either way. I have bad shoulders so the CSM is kind of looking like it may be a poor choice for me in that regard. Reading opinions here about the LT -10 is a tad discouraging especially when I keep reading about high dollar blade purchases. 

My thought was that since I dont intend to do much milling for lumber the blade issue wont be as relevant but ofcourse once you start milling it appears you cant stop

Hopefully you guys can enlighten me to any errors in my line of thinking and help me spend my cash in a positive way

Thanks in advance!


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 21, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> The trouble I am having is deciding on whether to go the CSM route or buy a bandsaw mill along the lines of the Woodmizer LT-10


What about looking for a used bandmill, like a LumberMate 2000 or an LT-15?

A guy picked up a LumberMate 2000 from a post here recently on craigslist that was asking $2400. Not sure what he paid, he didn't say...

I have seen a few sawmills for sale in WV when I was looking for mine. Check out crazedlist.org to search multiple locales on craigslist.

Get way more used than you do new, if you can find something you like.

OTOH, some folks ask close to list price, and they don't sell, so go figure...asking high prices and knocking down a little at a time is a mistake for folks that want to sell on craigslist, most learn that the hard way...and don't sell in the end.


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## huskyhank (Feb 21, 2010)

The questions you may not have answered yet is -- where will you get the wood? Do you have a way to move it or will you have to cut it where it lays?

I suggest a bigger saw than a 460 if you're mostly interested in milling with it and some longer rails for your mill. If Stihls are common and you have a good dealer in your area get a 660. The best wood (in my opinion) will be from larger logs if you have access to them. And I'd rather mill a big log than several small ones to get the same amount of wood. There is less set up time involved on one log.

Can you lift 50 pounds given the condition of your shoulders? If so, the mill won't be much problem. Once its in the wood you don't have to hold it up, you just push a little. Moving the slabs may be a bigger problem if your shoulders are getting worn out.


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## BobL (Feb 21, 2010)

[EDIT] Looks like HH beat me to the punchline.



WV Wildman said:


> I've been reading non stop here and still cant decide the route I need to take.
> I intend on milling some lumber but not boards, mainly slabs 2 to 4 inches and beams/mantles. This wont be a job or source of income *but merely a foray into something to keep me occupied.*


Well this certainly will no longer be a problem for you.

Sorry can't comment on Woodmizer as I have never used one.

Re I have bad shoulders so the CSM is kind of looking like it may be a poor choice for me in that regard.
The milling part is rarely the problem - it's moving the logs, slabs and larger lumber that gives me the main aches and pains. If your shoulders are really bad and you don't have motorised assistance for moving slabs then maybe look for another hobby.

Once you know what you are doing with a CSM you can do this.





That's a 72 lb mill riding on a log by itself. 
The slabs it cuts weigh at least double and triple that so lifting the mill is the easy bit 

I am a lazy SOB and have burstis in both shoulders but I prefer working by myself so I make things as easy as possible.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 21, 2010)

I own 20 acres, have access to over 7000 private acres so wood is not an issue thankfully

I have tractors with buckets to help do some lifting and two strong sons that can help 

I dont intend to do any lengths much longer then say 6 feet, my main goal is table slabs, bench slabs etc. Ofcourse i've been around enough to know that usually what you intend to do ends up being alot different from what you end up doing so I am trying to really make this purchase count.

I also have several friends who own tree care businesses so I can get the wood cut down in length if I need to go get a few peices of something worth going after. 

I geuss I know deep down that this will end up getting out of hand and my intended small scale hobby will escalate but my budget is $3000 and no more give or take a few hundred the wife dont know about


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 21, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> I own 20 acres, have access to over 7000 private acres so wood is not an issue thankfully
> 
> I have tractors with buckets to help do some lifting and two strong sons that can help
> 
> ...


Searching for sawmills in PA showed an Oscar 18 for sale in Bath NY for $1800. Look around, like I said, there was a LumberMate 2000 that the seller was asking $2400 recently. Guy bought it from NY, drove down to Washington, VA. Check this thread.

Lots of sawmills sit and don't sell, just look at the sawmill exchange, the prices are high and the sawmills don't sell. People convince themselves that their sawmills are worth more money by seeing others asking high prices. Again, they don't sell, they need to be priced at fair market value to sell.

Thing is that if you tell a guy who is asking $9800 that his sawmill is only worth $5k-$6k, even with all the extras, they don't want to believe it. A guy down in Arizona was asking $9800 for a LumberMate 2000 that has almost every accessory, he's been asking that price for months, at least 6 months now. I told him I didn't think it was worth $6k even, and he said he would only come down to $7800, bottom line. Bottom line is he's still got it and will have it for a while to come, IMO. Nobody pays close to retail for accessories, the used market doesn't work like that.

I think I got a fair price on my LumberMate recently, what I consider fair market value. $4k for one in good shape with a 23HP engine. Guys asking $9k-$10k are just not selling them.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 21, 2010)

BobL said:


> I am a lazy SOB and have burstis in both shoulders but I prefer working by myself so I make things as easy as possible.



I have that as well in both shoulders along with arthritis and tendonitus....

Im only 39 so it sucks bigtime. 

So a 660 with ??? bar 

I have a shop full of mig and tig welders so mods arent an issue for making longer rails


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## WV Wildman (Feb 21, 2010)

TT, thats pretty sound advice. I am in no real hurry so I can afford to wait and look. I do alot of traveling so maybe that is the route I will end up. My gut tells me the band saw mill would be alot easier for me and llow me to expand if I so chose but I lso understand I lose the protability I would have with a CSM


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## mikeb1079 (Feb 21, 2010)

hey wv, i think that in your situation with access to that much timber, bad shoulders, and (here's the key) machinery to move logs around, you should go with a used bandsaw mill. chainsaw milling has its advantages and can be really rewarding, but it is very strenuous (which i actually enjoy at times). it certainly taxes your back/shoulders/arms no matter how good your ergonomics are (not that bsmilling is easy). as tt has mentioned, if you're patient you can find a good deal on a woodmizer lt15 or similar for under 5k. i think that with the advantages of a bsm, especially with the amount of presumably high dollar timber you have access to in your part of the country (ie less waste of the bandsaw kerf and better finish on the cut) you'd be glad you went that route. 
one thing you'll notice too, is that the more people hear you own a mill, the more folks will be wanting to purchase or trade you for your lumber or bring you some logs to mill. even if you do it on a small scale, folks are usually really intrigued by the idea and you may find yourself doing a little custom milling now and again. at least enough to keep the beer coming in. 
cheers and good luck.


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## huskyhank (Feb 21, 2010)

OK, here's my prescription: 

660 or a Husky 395, with a 32 and a 42 inch bar, 3-4 chains for each bar, 36 inch Alaskan mill, chaps, helmet with ear and eye protection, files for sharpening, wedges, peavy or cant hook, etc. I think $2,000 will cover it.

Run it a while and if you like it, get another bigger saw of the same make (880 or 3120) your mill, bars and chains will work on the new saw. I love having two saws - taking one off the mill to make a few trimming cuts in the middle of cutting a log is a huge pain. If you don't like your new hobby, the saw and most of the gear you bought can be sold to recover lots of your costs.


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## 820wards (Feb 22, 2010)

Once you know what you are doing with a CSM you can do this.





I am a lazy SOB and have burstis in both shoulders but I prefer working by myself so I make things as easy as possible.[/QUOTE]



Bob,

Is that a remote control in your right hand? 

jerry-


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> TT, thats pretty sound advice. I am in no real hurry so I can afford to wait and look. I do alot of traveling so maybe that is the route I will end up. My gut tells me the band saw mill would be alot easier for me and llow me to expand if I so chose but I lso understand I lose the protability I would have with a CSM


Wildman,

As others have pointed out there are certainly reasons for using a CSM, but from what you have said it doesn't sound like the fit. CSMs are noisy, not to mention pricey for the chainsaw needed to operate them. I think huskyhank has good numbers and to me, $2k, is a lot of money to spend on a CSM give what used bandsaw mills can be had for. If you can't get the logs to the bandsaw mill easily and need to cut the logs in the woods because of so, certainly you can't beat a CSM. However, that just is not the case for you, you have tractor(s) and your sons to help you.

Another approach is to buy a bandsaw mill kit, such as the ones that Linn sells, and with a bit of welding you can make your own, along with the bed/track to run it on. I have seen kits from Linn for about $1500 that include most of what you need, except the motor and track. Still, I would look for a well known used bandmill, they are around and available all the time.

The other thing is that you have time to think this over, you don't need to make a decision right away, but I would be surprised if you decided that a CSM was the better solution for you given the condition and situation. I saw an analogy which I believe someone posted here on ArboristSite, that the difference between a CSM and a bandmill is similar to dial-up internet compared to Broadband. I think that pretty much says it all.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

I think that is the route I will take. Thanks for the advice everyone and sorry for the typing...wireless keyboard sucks


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> The other thing is that you have time to think this over, you don't need to make a decision right away, but I would be surprised if you decided that a CSM was the better solution for you given the condition and situation. I saw an analogy which I believe someone posted here on ArboristSite, that the difference between a CSM and a bandmill is similar to dial-up internet compared to Broadband. I think that pretty much says it all.



Commercial operation where every second of time is money, or if he want lots of long lumber, in your softwoods, the BSM wins hands down - no question. 

But what he wants is;
"I dont intend to do any lengths much longer then say 6 feet, my main goal is table slabs, bench slabs etc. "
In another post he says "mainly slabs 2 to 4 inches and beams/mantles"

A 3' x 6' x 4'' slab is gonna weigh 300 lbs, the weight of a CS mill is peanuts compared to this. As he has a tractor he could even tote and lift his CS mill onto log rails with the tractor. 

With such a short log he can setup quite an serious slope so milling will be zero effort.
Like this:





In terms of cutting time for slabs. I find setup time of log, sharpening, and stacking the slabs are really the rate determining steps, and the milling time is the minor component.
6 ft at 1 ft per minute on a CS mill is all of 6 minutes!.
Moving and stacking the slab and sharpening or swapping out chains will take longer than this, but by the end of a few days he will have more slabs than he can use - Well I do anyway ;-)

Also just as long as he's aware that smaller bandsaws like LT15 has max log diam of 28" so if he runs across even a 3ft wide log (could be nice for a table top) then a $5k bandsaw is going to struggle to make cuts that wide. yes you can roll the log and cut 12 or 14" boards no problem but he did say "slabs".


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 22, 2010)

Bob,

You present some good points, wide slabs are a good one for a CSM.

I have 3 friends with CSMs, and while they have all used them, not one of them really likes them and in the end are looking for some type of bandmill or swinghead mill. All of them have substantial investments in the chainsaw as well as the mill itself. 2 of the 3 are using a 660.

That said, you do present some good points and those points are certainly worth considering for Wildman.


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> That said, you do present some good points and those points are certainly worth considering for Wildman.



Yeah these things can be quite personal and linked to an individuals progress through their interests. Just three years ago I started out milling with a 50cc McCulloch to access unusual timber to make wood work tools ie small pieces of wood. I now have 8 chainsaws, 4 - 50 cc or less toys, and 4 real (milling) saws and 3 CS mills and a heap of accessories. Although I have only paid actual $ for 3 of my CS I still have a significant investment in my milling gear. I am inherently interested in making and using CS mills and modifying them to get them working better. Some people shake their head when I say it wouldn't worry me too much if all the wood I have milled was to disappear as I have thoroughly enjoyed the process and would do it all again tomorrow.

Over about 3 years with bursitis in both shoulders (now almost cured) I have milled over 120 logs (mostly with my hardworking but wonderful 076) and during that time have actually used to make something useful a grand total of 1/8th of one log! So now I have more wood than I can poke a stick at and definitely more wood than I will ever use in my lifetime. I never intended to sell any of this wood but will have to clear some, as we are running out of space at the milling yard. I am still intensely interested in milling - by CS mill or any other mechanisms. If I was going to expand my milling operations, for our hardwoods I would look at a swing mill, also with a 6 ft slabber attachment. However, as I have no room at my place to store such a beast, and little place left to stack timber I am very ,satisfied with 3 CS mills and 4 saws for now. Although I have designs for several more CS mills in my head I am playing with, and may eventually make one or two just for fun. 

Most people who give up on CS mills appear to never really learned to set up and sharpen chains properly and don't sharpen them often enough when milling. I sharpened my first chain nearly 50 years ago but never really learned out to do it fast and effectively with progressive raker setting until about a year ago. This, and some other CS mill mods like wheels and milling on slopes is probably why I can now auto cut and sit back and watch the saw glide down the log, although I prefer to be close up and feeling the saw and chain cut the wood. I think the feel of the saw is important, but as I said I'm physically lazy and wouldn't be doing this if I was raising a sweat. I break out in a sweat just looking as photos of people pushing their saws on their knees in the mud and sawdust, or showering themselves with saw dust using minimills. It just doesn't have to be like that and I learned most of that from some excellent operators who are still on or used to frequent this forum. 

I see BS mills working real well for your timbers, commercial operations and if someone wants to make lots of lumber but these operators still need a CS of some kind anyway. For occasional users who will also need a CS, a simple CS mill is not a large investment especially as they are dead easy to make and well tuned and set up they are fun to use.


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## SilverBox (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> I own 20 acres, have access to over 7000 private acres so wood is not an issue thankfully
> 
> I have tractors with buckets to help do some lifting and two strong sons that can help
> 
> ...



I vote for an Alaskan.


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## Andrew96 (Feb 22, 2010)

Wildman...everyone has already said but I'll say it again. I feel a csm's strong points are it's portability (cut the log where it sits..leave the mess, noise, take the slabs)...ease at which it can cut super wide interesting stuff when you come across it. Of course..at the expense of a more physical day (I assume..never played with a BSM) and a larger kerf (though for thicker slabs who cares).
I would suggest you make your own alaskan (you'd have fun doing that..already have the tools)..find the largest saw of your favourite brand, stick the two together and start with something. You don't want to be an internet miller (all talk no milling...which is how I feel right now until the weather turns).


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

Lots of good ideas for sure, alot to take in

I have other saws, been in the woods since I was in diapers and my pop used to put a blanket in a clothes basket and take me cutting. He worked for Pepco as a cutter for many years after Vietnam. Taught me to run a saw but wouldnt teach me to fell trees. I geuss he saw to many things go wrong and tried to keep me away from it but over the years I have been known to do some good work when required. I recently lost a friend who had a tree come back on him so this years cutting will be done with nervous hands. Its a job that has to be done as all we heat with is wood so the annual 6 or 8 cords of wood is mandatory.

I still see valid points to both types of mill, but the ease of the BSM has a lure for me that i'm having trouble overcoming. Slabs are the target but I know dang well that slabs would lead to a few fence posts that would lead to a few boards ...maybe a new deck or shed for the homestead and on and on. I geuss the biggest kick in the pants is the instant outlay of $3k versus saving a grand or so.....

As far as being dedicated(all talk no work), well I started out with a $200 hobby powdercoating kit and now have my own business with well over $100k in equipment, started out with a basic photography course and now get paid to travel the country every other weekend to shoot and good lord I know I have damn near $50k in gear but everything is paid for. It is all I do and supports a family of four so I think I have a knack for making things work to my advantage haha. A lathe purchased at Christmas has me making game calls and I cant make enough of them, they sell as fast as they are done(another reasonf or finding attractive wood). The slab idea just struck me one day and to be honest, I already have people lining up wanting slabs so before the first log is milled I kind of know it will grow into something else that will make me some extra cash but the main idea is still to obtain slabs for myself. And with the drying and curing process of the wood its not an overnight deal so maybe I can just enjoy this for awhile before I get consumed with making a few coins here and there I already have the Tenon cutters and usual woodworking tools needed, we are just down to this decision on which way to roll. I still have zero intentions on doing a bunch of mill work for others beyond some slabs but it sure sounds nice to be able to pull some lumber for my own use now and then.

I know you fellers who live by the CSM state it can be fairly easy, but for someone who has never used one, the BSM appears to have a huge edge over it for someone who would rather replace a blade and move on without the hassle of the mill and service of the chainsaw (not that the engine for a BSM doesnt require it as well) My oldest son races motocross and cross country so Im fully versed on how something needs proper servicing especially when turning 13,000 rpm! I just dont know if I want that to deal with. 

If the economy was better, I would probably be posting pictures of both set ups just to cover anything I may encounter but these days every penny counts but may end up being the end of the means when all is said in done. Sorry for the book of a response, but I figure the more you that do this know the better direction you can steer me and I surely appreciate it!


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 22, 2010)

> I still see valid points to both types of mill, but the ease of the BSM has a lure for me that i'm having trouble overcoming. Slabs are the target



IF that is true, you can forget any BSM that is small. First of all, the distance between the guides probably won't be as wide as you want your slabs to be, but most of all, those small mills aren't built to be maxed out all the time, and are under powered for that use.

I've sawn on a LT10, and personally, i didn't think much of it at all. The LL24 the Norwood has, is waaaaaaaaaaay more saw for about the same money.

Neither the LL24 or the LT10 are anywhere near the saw a LT15 is, or better yet a later Lumbermate 2000.

If you "really are" going to stay with shorter logs, and you want to make full width slabs, you have no choise but to get a BIG powerhead and a long bar, and live with all the back breaking work it takes to run it.

Rob


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> If you "really are" going to stay with shorter logs, and you want to make full width slabs, you have no choise but to get a BIG powerhead and a long bar, and live with all the back breaking work it takes to run it.
> 
> Rob



Thats the part thats killing me, big crotch wood is where its at for alot of figure and for slabs it makes very interesting slabs. The width of the small weekend warrior BSM would be very limiting and I know I would end up with a CSM to handle them 

Im not afriad of the hard work honestly, and doing this as time permits or when I feel up to it can negate the issues I have with my shoulders. 

Maybe I will buy a lottery ticket haha


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## huskyhank (Feb 22, 2010)

You can cut a whole lot of slabs and thick boards with a chainsaw mill in not too much time. I have 3 stacks cut in the last 45 days that when combined are as big as a pick up truck. That's probably 4-5 full days of work. I re-stacked them yesterday and I'm sore from moving them. Its a lot of wood. My goal is to collect as much as I can before it gets warm outside, then take a short break from milling unless I get something too good to pass up.

Still, I'd like to have a band mill and do more sophisticated and faster cuttings. I think I could easily mill more wood than I could use for years and years in a few months. My CSM stuff will fit on a shelf in the garage. A bandmill would take up an entire garage bay. So for the time they're not being used the CSM is sure convenient to store.


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> If you "really are" going to stay with shorter logs, and you want to make full width slabs, you have no choise but to get a BIG powerhead and a long bar, and live with all the back breaking work it takes to run it.



I disagree that using a CSM needs to be a back breaking activity. The reason that most people find it back breaking is because they approach it with twenty year old bull at a gate enthusiasm instead of looking at ways of minimising the effort required.

To start with I never carry my mill any distance because of these.





I can even wheel it through the bush if it's not too dense.

On site the mill is lifted onto a table (mill weight 72 Lb so it's 3 seconds of back breaking time) usually set up right next to the log




Here I can refuel/re-oil and service it standing up
To sharpen it I lay the mill over like this




I even bring a plastic chair with me to the site so I can sharpen sitting down.

Log gets lifted with this;





Then it's a 3 second lift to get the mill onto the log rails to this position.




Start engine on rails and if the chain is sharpened properly and the log is on a slope the operator should just have to lean on the to make it cut. This is no different to BSM.

When I'm really lazy I leave the wheels on the mill and wheel it back to the other end of the log but usually I carry it (7 seconds? of back breaking effort).

Now the slab has to be moved but this is an issue whether one is using a CSM or BSM. This is where the Sack Trolley or hand truck comes in handy. 

I agree it's a very slow process but one thing it definitely isn't is back breaking. I'm an overweight lazy (and to use an Aussie colloquialism) parent-less offspring, if it was back breaking I wouldn't be doing it.


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## gemniii (Feb 22, 2010)

I'd vote to start with a CSM.

A REAL important point to minimize pain is get the log high! (no not by having it smoke!) A simple jack system or get it up stable on something with a jack or tractor makes a world of difference.

I've milled most of the work I've done on the ground to mimic what I expect I'll have to do in the woods. It's doable, but not pleasant.

You've got a mill and chainsaw. Try it small at first.
If you can mill with what you've got and like doing it then get a 90CC saw or larger with inboard clutch and side chain tensioner (makes life a lot easier). You should be able to get a new 660 for <$1000, a good used for $600. I went used. Then look at the largest tree your liable to mill. The 660 should take a 42" bar and maybe larger, and a 36" mill or larger.

If you need to get into 56" mills etc. you will need more HP.

So if you go used 660 w/ 42" bar and several chains and a new Mark III you should be able to get by for < $1200. But with the 660 and a 24" bar you can cut any 20" wood with your present mill.

All this time you should be learning to "read wood"

If you get that setup you can probably mill like BobL in a recliner.

At this point you could decide if you wanted to fork over the cash for a much bigger BSM. And if you want you could probably ebay the 600 for near what you paid for it, if you keep it in good shape.

I'd still advise you keep an eye out for a decent BSM, but the difference in cost is great, and you still will need a good chainsaw to cut up trees for the BSM.

And you can always move up to a 72" bar with a double head mill for those BIG trees.


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## gemniii (Feb 22, 2010)

BobL said:


> I disagree that using a CSM needs to be a back breaking activity. The reason that most people find it back breaking is because they approach it with twenty year old bull at a gate enthusiasm instead of looking at ways of minimising the effort required.
> 
> To start with I never carry my mill any distance because of these.
> 
> ...


Bob -
You need to figure out how to put a seat, a front axle driven by the powerhead and stearing mechanism on that.


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

gemniii said:


> Bob -
> You need to figure out how to put a seat, a front axle driven by the powerhead and stearing mechanism on that.



I will admit I have had a dream about using a spare set of Harley handlebars that have been laying around the shed for 20 years!  

A 90 cc saw will take a 42" bar and allow you to comfortably cut 36" wood, or 40" if you are prepared to make your own mill that mounts to the bar bolts.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

BobL- I was taught to work smart even at twenty...not really sure how I ended up with a bad back and bum shoulders, I geuss I didnt listen 

I wont be sporting wheels on anything like that, part of my job as a photographer is testing and writing about ATV's and UTV's so I usually have several here that get worked hard so I dont have to A few straps on the racks or in the bed will wrok

I reckon i will pul the trigger on the 660 and grab afew chains on a 20 inch bar and see what happens. I can always use another saw and in the future I can get a BSM if I feel the need. (I would suffice to say that I will end up with a full blown mill by the time its over:censored


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## huskyhank (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> snipped.......
> 
> I reckon i will pul the trigger on the 660 and grab afew chains on a 20 inch bar and see what happens.



More bar!!! Get a 32!!!!


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

Well i have the 20 inch alaskan so I reckon it will hit ebay since it wont work on the bar yall are recommending(bought it for the saw i have then after reading here that that saw aint got the stones to run as a csm)

I will have to have my dealer order the 660 so set me up....bar size and chain and what size mill to re-order ( if I read correctly, a 32 inch bar with a 36 inch alaska)


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> Well i have the 20 inch alaskan so I reckon it will hit ebay since it wont work on the bar yall are recommending(bought it for the saw i have then after reading here that that saw aint got the stones to run as a csm)
> 
> I will have to have my dealer order the 660 so set me up....bar size and chain and what size mill to re-order ( if I read correctly, a 32 inch bar with a 36 inch alaska)



A 32" bar will only give you between 26 and 28" of cut width. I would go for a 42" bar on a 36 or bigger mill that way you can get 36" of cut. Maybe someone else can chip in here - can one even get 36" of cut on a 36" mill?

Now you may never mill a 36" log but there will be times when you are milling a 28" log that has a 36" plus branch union that you want to take a look at - it also just makes it easier to work around lumps and bumps and not to have to stop to cut them off etc.


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## huskyhank (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> Well i have the 20 inch alaskan so I reckon it will hit ebay since it wont work on the bar yall are recommending(bought it for the saw i have then after reading here that that saw aint got the stones to run as a csm)
> 
> I will have to have my dealer order the 660 so set me up....bar size and chain and what size mill to re-order ( if I read correctly, a 32 inch bar with a 36 inch alaska)



A 36" Alaskan will cut about 33-34 inches with a 42" bar. A 32" bar on the mill will let you cut about 26". If you have other saws you might just get the 42. If you don't have another big saw I'd get the 32 also. It'll be a nice back up for the 42" and it'll be lots better for most falling and bucking.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

So a 42 inch bar on a 56 inch mill? 

At what length will I need to start looking at aux. oilers? 36 inches is pretty big for around here even with a decent crotch piece.


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> BobL- I was taught to work smart even at twenty...not really sure how I ended up with a bad back and bum shoulders, I geuss I didnt listen


Well stuff can happen to anyone so even the most careful of us can end up damaged.



> I wont be sporting wheels on anything like that, part of my job as a photographer is testing and writing about ATV's and UTV's so I usually have several here that get worked hard so I dont have to A few straps on the racks or in the bed will wrok


The wheels are most useful for moving the mill from my shed to my van at home where I have about a 40 yard walk down a narrow side path alongside our house. Teh wheels also make it a lot easier to slide the mill into the van. Once the wheels are on I often just leave them on so I even use them moving the mill the dozen yards from my van to the log on site. However, you shouldn't really need wheels with a 660 and even a 42" bar and 36" mill - that's gonna be about 50 lbs all up.



> I reckon i will pul the trigger on the 660 and grab afew chains on a 20 inch bar and see what happens. I can always use another saw and in the future I can get a BSM if I feel the need. (I would suffice to say that I will end up with a full blown mill by the time its over:censored


Yep - I reckon you will learn a lot even from that. Besides - I reckon you cannot have to many chainsaws!


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## huskyhank (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> So a 42 inch bar on a 56 inch mill?
> 
> At what length will I need to start looking at aux. oilers? 36 inches is pretty big for around here even with a decent crotch piece.



A 42" bar on a 36" mill cuts about 33" maximum.

A 60" bar on a 56" mill ought to cut about 53" maximum.
I don't have a 60" bar in my hands yet but this ought to be about right. You lose about 6" of cutting length because the mill clamps on the bar at each end. 

I find my 36" mill with a 42" bar to be not too hard to move around. I'd start there if I had to do it again as its big enough most of the time. Also, my 3120 (118cc) pulls the 42" bar much better than my 2100 (100cc). I think a 36" mill may be the upper comfortable limit for a 660.

If you get a 660, get an aux. oiler for the 36" mill. My Huskys oil really well as they both have auto and manual oilers. So I don't use my aux. oiler. (have one but don't bother but I might start using it to see if it helps) I think a 660 with a 42" bar on a 36" mill will need more bar oil. Someone else here with experience with that saw can answer for sure.


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## gemniii (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> So a 42 inch bar on a 56 inch mill?
> 
> At what length will I need to start looking at aux. oilers? 36 inches is pretty big for around here even with a decent crotch piece.


You seem to be getting it mixed up. You need a bar about 6" longer than your mill spec. A 42" bar for a 36" mill. Longer if you leave the big dogs on.

What is your present saw and bar? I milled most of my first tree with my JD CS 62 (4.7hp), a 28" bar, and sharp ripping chain. About my widest cut was 20". The saw would bog down a bit, but if I just took it slow and kept the chain sharp it worked well.





Really though, if you go the 660 route I'd recommend you get a 24", 25" or 26" bar and a ripping chain and try out your present alaskan if your wood is under 20". I think you will still want a relatively short bar like that just for the occasional crosscut, plus a good 25" bar is a lot less expensive than a 42" and easier learn on and to swing.

As far as an oiler it depends on your saw. My JD CS 62 w/ 28" would spray well, my 660 w/28" seems a little "dry" and I think I'm going to have to add a drip bottle.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 22, 2010)

I got numbers confused me thinks

Ok...I think I will order teh 660 with a 24 to26 inch bar and start from there. I can always go bigger when needed and after seeing the unit in action, fabricating my own mill wont be a problem. 

Now, what seems to be the best place to purchase chains to get started with. I know the dealer I use doesnt have them in stock and imagine they would get pricey if he had to order them in special. (Baileys seems well recommended)

Next question...is it feasible to buy a thinner bar and use the factory bar and chain for what it was intended and use say a woodland pro or is it not worth it?


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## gr8scott72 (Feb 22, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> I got numbers confused me thinks
> 
> Ok...I think I will order teh 660 with a 24 to26 inch bar and start from there. I can always go bigger when needed and after seeing the unit in action, fabricating my own mill wont be a problem.
> 
> Now, what seems to be the best place to purchase chains to get started with. I know the dealer I use doesnt have them in stock and imagine they would get pricey if he had to order them in special.



I wouldn't even bother with a bar that small to mill with. You lose 6" of that so you're only able to do 18" - 20" with that max. That size bar would be good to have to be able to use that saw for firewood and such.

I would get a 42" bar like mentioned already and then call Bailey's and just order the 36" rails for the alaskan that you already have. That sounds like the perfect size for the stuff you are talking about.

(Bailey's sells the ripping chain too.)

Just to fuel your fire, here's a 53.5" wide red oak slab cut with my 60" bar on a 56" alaskan:


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> A 42" bar on a 36" mill cuts about 33" maximum.
> 
> A 60" bar on a 56" mill ought to cut about 53" maximum.
> I don't have a 60" bar in my hands yet but this ought to be about right. You lose about 6" of cutting length because the mill clamps on the bar at each end.
> ...



I have run my 42" bars on 54 and 64" mill rails rails and although I have the ally rail material to make smaller sets of mill rails, I have never felt the need to use them. Using the 64" rails with the 42" bar in the bush is a bit clumsy but otherwise milling with them in the yard is fine and they actually help to balance the weight of the bigger powerheads on smaller logs.

I have 25, 30 and 36" bars for smaller logs but I tend to use the 42" right down to about 20" and it's only then I go with my smaller mill. 

I use aux oilers even on my small mill and shorter bars. Big output oiler saws like the 880 (38 ml/min) and 3120 (54 ml/min) don't have as much of an advantage as it first seems because most of the extra oil they pump onto the chain is lost when the chain goes around the nose before the chain gets to the cutting side. On cutting buddy Hud's 3120 I see a lot more oil dripping off the bar nose guard than the 880 and both drip a lot more than the 076 (19 ml/min) so my guess is the extra oil just wasted unless the nose is buried in the wood. FOr milling it's far better to deliver the oil to the cutting side of the bar after the chain has gone around the nose.

On 40 -50" cuts, I like to see the aux oil flood a little out onto the bar. This is what I reckon is about right a right level of Aux oil output.





The use of an aux oiler to take some of the load off the powerhead can pretty clearly be seen with the saw temperature increasing within about 20s seconds after turning off the aux oiler. Using no aux oiler on long bars puts a similar load on a powerhead as using a partially blunt chain.


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## Andrew96 (Feb 23, 2010)

Boy what a can of worms over bar length. I'd look at this way wildman...the 660 will pull a lot of bar in hard wood. Get a bar too big and now you've got to move it around all the time. Too small and you cannot cut any slab big enough to get the benefit of going the CSM route over the BSM. (really..you need two but that is the can of worms all over again). 
I started with a 36" bar cutting 30" on my mill. It took me 2 trees to wish I had another few inches (forgot about bumps...limbs etc). 30" cut was so close...a 36" cut would have been perfect slabbing around Ontario hardwoods. If you're buying a bar anyway..think about how big you'd like your slab to be. Do you really need a 50" wide bench? Now many trees do you see that need 40" or so of cut? Using my 660...seems somewhere around a 36" bar is aux oiler zone. At that length..on that saw...it depends on the wood. I've yet to test my aux oiler addition to my 36" bar setup.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 23, 2010)

Andrew many thanks as well as everyone else. 

I think the 42 inch bar with a 36 inch mill on the 660 should be a solid place to start along with an aux. oil set up.


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## mikeb1079 (Feb 23, 2010)

*yep*



> I think the 42 inch bar with a 36 inch mill on the 660 should be a solid place to start along with an aux. oil set up.



:agree2: that'll do you right. happy milling.


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## Coalsmoke (Feb 25, 2010)

Wildman, listen to Bob and the others here with experience on CSM. Some like traditional tool are green as grass and are only telling you their biased opinion and not looking at it from the perspective of your needs. I have owned and run both various chainsaw mills and bandmills, and will say for your needs the chainsaw millers are on the money here, their advice can save you a lot of troubles and trials.


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## WV Wildman (Feb 25, 2010)

I appreciate it Coalsmoke....

The 660 is ordered with a 24 inch bar for regular work, a 42 inch bar will be ordered with ripping chian, the 36" alaskan bars will be ordered when I get back off this run south. 

I will end up with a band saw mill as well at some point, I am sure I will want to saw thinner material etc. I will keep looking the used markets over and if needed will just buy a new set up when the time is right.

Im not scared to have both:greenchainsaw:


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## Coalsmoke (Feb 25, 2010)

Sounds like a good setup you have ordered.


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## gemniii (Feb 25, 2010)

Waiting on pictures


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## WV Wildman (Feb 26, 2010)

gemniii said:


> Waiting on pictures



Im on assigment for the next 10 days in the southeast


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## jdrum (Feb 26, 2010)

i bet this guy knows how to TAKE SOME PICS.

jim


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## BobL (Feb 26, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> Im on assigment for the next 10 days in the southeast



Nice Phots!


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## TraditionalTool (Mar 3, 2010)

Coalsmoke said:


> Wildman, listen to Bob and the others here with experience on CSM. Some like traditional tool are green as grass and are only telling you their biased opinion and not looking at it from the perspective of your needs. I have owned and run both various chainsaw mills and bandmills, and will say for your needs the chainsaw millers are on the money here, their advice can save you a lot of troubles and trials.


Hey, smoke blower...talking about green as grass, wouldn't that describe your sawmill business that you just sold off?

What happened when you were blowing all types of smoke up everyone's buttocks about how you were gonna buy a hydraulic mill, now you sold off your LumberMate and got rid of your sawmill biz?

You had so much to teach everyone about the sawmill industry and making money, I don't get it...you were immune to the economy and had a great thing going up in B.C. I guess your wife told you to wake up and smell the roses, so off the sawmill went...lol

What a braggart you were, only to fall to your knees...


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 3, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Hey, smoke blower...talking about green as grass, wouldn't that describe your sawmill business that you just sold off?
> 
> What happened when you were blowing all types of smoke up everyone's buttocks about how you were gonna buy a hydraulic mill, now you sold off your LumberMate and got rid of your sawmill biz?
> 
> ...



Ok you two. Go sling mud somewhere else. Don't mess up a good thread.


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## huskyhank (Mar 3, 2010)

gr8scott72 said:


> Ok you two. Go sling mud somewhere else. Don't mess up a good thread.




I second that!!


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 3, 2010)

aaaw, let em go it's just a lovers spat...

Rob


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## Coalsmoke (Mar 3, 2010)

I'll third that :jawdrop: I have had mr tool blocked for a little while now so I don't have the pleasure of reading his posts and private messages, ever since he sent me some disturbing, shall we say, suggestions. Scott, if you'd kindly take his quote out of your post I can go back to peacefully ignoring him.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Oh come on, let them go at it...you know how long it's been since I got to chant...Fight Fight Fight without a hockey game on. opcorn:


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## TraditionalTool (Mar 4, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Oh come on, let them go at it...you know how long it's been since I got to chant...Fight Fight Fight without a hockey game on. opcorn:


Andrew,

There's aint much to fight with there, he sold off his sawmill biz, now he's down to his chainsaw mill...

At first thought you would think he might weld up a bandmill of his own, but given that he needed to hire a millwright to put his Norwood together and set it up for him, I am not sure there's much likelihood of that.

It's really a loss for the sawmill world in general, the smoke blower had so much to teach the world about running a sawmill, and poof, gone overnight...go figure...talk is cheap...


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 4, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Andrew,
> 
> There's aint much to fight with there, he sold off his sawmill biz, now he's down to his chainsaw mill...
> 
> ...



Again? Really? You're still going at it even tho you where asked by more than one person to stop messing up this thread? Please dude, just take it somewhere else. I, for one, am tired of the personal attacks on this forum especially in a thread that has nothing to do with it. 


GROW UP!!!


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## BobL (Mar 4, 2010)

gr8scott72 said:


> Again? Really? You're still going at it even tho you where asked by more than one person to stop messing up this thread.



I agree - time to put this one to rest.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 4, 2010)

My fault....I'll stop chanting now. We are all trying to have fun aren't we?...let's try a bit harder then.


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## BobL (Mar 4, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> My fault....I'll stop chanting now. We are all trying to have fun aren't we?...let's try a bit harder then.



Fun, no problem, but lets leave the school ground name calling to the lads in the Chainsaw forum? 

How's the decision making going Wildman?


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## WV Wildman (Mar 4, 2010)

Still in Florida...gotta few more days till I return. The CSM is a given, just deciding on going ahead and buying a bandsaw mill


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## BobL (Mar 4, 2010)

Great photo!

If you need convincing about getting the BSM, just get it!


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## WV Wildman (Mar 10, 2010)

Finally back home...picked up the 660 yesterday

HOLY COW! This thing is a beast! I made quick work of a locust and a few cuts on a dead pine that has to be hauled to a rotting pile down in the woods and man does this thing eat! 

I will finish breaking it in and then work on making my first slab cut


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## gr8scott72 (Mar 10, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> Finally back home...picked up the 660 yesterday
> 
> HOLY COW! This thing is a beast! I made quick work of a locust and a few cuts on a dead pine that has to be hauled to a rotting pile down in the woods and man does this thing eat!
> 
> I will finish breaking it in and then work on making my first slab cut



Aren't big saws fun? :greenchainsaw:


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## Coalsmoke (Mar 10, 2010)

WV Wildman said:


> Finally back home...picked up the 660 yesterday
> 
> HOLY COW! This thing is a beast! I made quick work of a locust and a few cuts on a dead pine that has to be hauled to a rotting pile down in the woods and man does this thing eat!
> 
> I will finish breaking it in and then work on making my first slab cut



Glad to hear you are enjoying yourself. Watch out for the chainsaw addiction that seems to be going around these parts


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## WV Wildman (Mar 10, 2010)

If I never mill a single log, stepping up to this size saw is so worth it. 

I was given a few truck loads of walnut that I have to go get, and am due in some maple so we will see if any of it is worth milling.


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