# Mastermind Meets The Stihl 088



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2013)

Nice saw getting undressed.


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## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2013)




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## Jacob J. (Jan 15, 2013)

The 088 sure is a sweetie of a saw...


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## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2013)

Only .020 without a gasket. I don't like the squish that tight on a saw with this much displacement. 






Now for a little detour......I needed a better boring bar for cutting squish so......











Now setting up for the cut......






And making it. We removed .060


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> The 088 sure is a sweetie of a saw...



I love the timing numbers in this baby after machine work JJ. It's looking like a real runner.


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## paccity (Jan 16, 2013)

subbingopcorn:


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

After the cut.






Improved squish clearance.






I'll just port match the exhaust flange, it seems plenty big to me.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

And this is where I stopped for the night.......the port work is nearly roughed in.


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## bucknfeller (Jan 16, 2013)

Nice looking work! Is there a reason for using twisted solder rather than a solid strand for checking squish?


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## sawfun9 (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks Randy, I can't wait to try it out.


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## LegDeLimber (Jan 16, 2013)

Twisted solder ?
Probably a roll of .032 dia and just a preemptive move.

Recently stuck some .032 in a blower jug and had to do the twist thing 
to get a pinch reading.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Nice looking work! Is there a reason for using twisted solder rather than a solid strand for checking squish?





LegDeLimber said:


> Twisted solder ?
> Probably a roll of .032 dia and just a preemptive move.
> 
> Recently stuck some .032 in a blower jug and had to do the twist thing
> to get a pinch reading.



Yeppers. I bought several rolls cheap. 



sawfun9 said:


> Thanks Randy, I can't wait to try it out.



Sorry about taking so long to get to it. I never would have imagined I would get so busy with this stuff.


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## young (Jan 16, 2013)

this going to be done by sunday?


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 16, 2013)

I likey like the idear of this.
You wont find an easyer muff to modd.


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## bryanr2 (Jan 16, 2013)

Sure have missed these threads Randy!


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## cowroy (Jan 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I never would have imagined I would get so busy with this stuff.



Randy, it doesn't surprise me in the least that you have gotten so much business. Nevermind the fact you have won a couple build-offs, but the amount you contribute here, sponsoring this addicting site we can't stay away from, and just being an awesome person in general. Nope, no surprises here. :msp_wink:


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## Stihl 041S (Jan 16, 2013)

Weird azz indicator.........


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## Nardoo (Jan 16, 2013)

Aw, now you've done it.:msp_biggrin:


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## Stihl 041S (Jan 16, 2013)

Nardoo said:


> Aw, now you've done it.:msp_biggrin:



Prolly deed......


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## Sprintcar (Jan 16, 2013)

Stihl 041S said:


> Weird azz indicator.........



Same here.

Nice work brother.


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## Adirondackstihl (Jan 16, 2013)

Before and after vids right??

:msp_biggrin:


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

young said:


> this going to be done by sunday?



It'll be done today Sir. 



Stihlman441 said:


> I likey like the idear of this.
> You wont find an easyer muff to modd.



True......very true. 



bryanr2 said:


> Sure have missed these threads Randy!



I've got several more in the wings Steven. 



Stihl 041S said:


> Weird azz indicator.........



Evidently. I haven't seen any other with quite this much reach. 



Adirondackstihl said:


> Before and after vids right??
> 
> :msp_biggrin:



Nope. I never started it. 

I don't have any wood big enough to do it justice.


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## Fire8 (Jan 16, 2013)

Originally Posted by Adirondackstihl 
Before and after vids right??


Nope. I never started it. 

I don't have any wood big enough to do it justice.

Go ahead and do the after video of the build who care how big the wood is everyone's wanting to see it run


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Fire8 said:


> Originally Posted by Adirondackstihl
> Before and after vids right??
> 
> 
> ...



I'll take it with me when we go cut. Videos will be made of course. I just don't have any before video. 

Stickers.......I gotta send you stickers. Getting them now before I forget again.


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## Adirondackstihl (Jan 16, 2013)

> I don't have any wood big enough to do it justice



She must be a big girl......


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## mdavlee (Jan 16, 2013)

I'll come get it and put it in some wood that is deserving of a 088:msp_sneaky: 

Looks good Randy. Maybe I can get down your way when it stops raining and flooding.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I'll come get it and put it in some wood that is deserving of a 088:msp_sneaky:
> 
> Looks good Randy. Maybe I can get down your way when it stops raining and flooding.



Is it ever gonna stop? :msp_thumbdn:


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## mdavlee (Jan 16, 2013)

I don't know if it is or not. The schools are closed up here.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I don't know if it is or not. The schools are closed up here.



Ours were an hour late. It rained so hard last night it woke me up......no easy feat. 

The place we are cutting next is in a low spot and may not be dry enough to work in for a week.


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## Fire8 (Jan 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'll take it with me when we go cut. Videos will be made of course. I just don't have any before video.
> 
> Stickers.......I gotta send you stickers. Getting them now before I forget again.



Goody Goody stickers just kidding I know you been busy 


View attachment 273839


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 16, 2013)

bummer on the weather ,guess if your stuck inside will get cought up on the builds ,ill send some of this rare west coast sunshine your way


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## watsonr (Jan 16, 2013)

He's not really stuck inside, just afraid he'll melt!


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Fire8 said:


> Goody Goody stickers just kidding I know you been busy
> 
> 
> View attachment 273839



They are in the mailbox. 



trx250r180 said:


> bummer on the weather ,guess if your stuck inside will get cought up on the builds ,ill send some of this rare west coast sunshine your way



I'll never get caught up it seems. That's a good thing though.


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## Stihl 041S (Jan 16, 2013)

Sprintcar said:


> Same here.
> 
> Nice work brother.



His fault !!!!! ;-))

He seems to like it.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 16, 2013)

Randy.......What sort of problems have you had with a squish in the 24/25thounsandth range, and a 60mm piston?


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## showrguy (Jan 16, 2013)

i hope you do better on this 088 than you did on my ms880 (mastermind meets the ms880 thread, i don't know how to link it) ..

for those of you who don't know, last june or so i sent my 880 to randy so he could put one of those stickers on it..
wewll, somehow the wires got crossed, and he ended up tearing my saw all apart, ground a buncha metal outa it, made it loud, then he sent it back to me,.....without a damn sticker on it ????
that was the whole reason i sent it to him in the 1st place !! 

i guess the only good thing is that the saw is actually lighter now than it was when i sent it !!


no, i did'nt forget about the mill randy.


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## ChipMonger (Jan 16, 2013)

Randy,

Did you get any initial and post work compression numbers?

Paul


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

showrguy said:


> i hope you do better on this 088 than you did on my ms880 (mastermind meets the ms880 thread, i don't know how to link it) ..
> 
> for those of you who don't know, last june or so i sent my 880 to randy so he could put one of those stickers on it..
> wewll, somehow the wires got crossed, and he ended up tearing my saw all apart, ground a buncha metal outa it, made it loud, then he sent it back to me,.....without a damn sticker on it ????
> ...



So it's just lighter? Well that's a good thing on one of these big bastards. 

I'll send you a couple of stickers Chuck. Send me your address again. To the email in my sig please, I can keep up with stuff much better that way. 

I'm still interested in that mill too. Just let me know what you find out.



ChipMonger said:


> Randy,
> 
> Did you get any initial and post work compression numbers?
> 
> Paul



I did. I'll post more later.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Randy.......What sort of problems have you had with a squish in the 24/25thounsandth range, and a 60mm piston?



None Dennis. I just (sort of by accident) found that a wider squish seems to run better on the same engine with all else being the same. 

Talk to me.....what are your thoughts? You know I'm open minded and all about learning.


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## barneyrb (Jan 16, 2013)

Been raining and freezing here long enough I thought I saw an old bearded guy building this huge boat.


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## luckydad (Jan 16, 2013)

showrguy said:


> i hope you do better on this 088 than you did on my ms880 (mastermind meets the ms880 thread, i don't know how to link it) ..
> 
> for those of you who don't know, last june or so i sent my 880 to randy so he could put one of those stickers on it..
> wewll, somehow the wires got crossed, and he ended up tearing my saw all apart, ground a buncha metal outa it, made it loud, then he sent it back to me,.....without a damn sticker on it ????
> ...



He done did the same thing to me on my LITTLE 200T !!:msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

luckydad said:


> He done did the same thing to me on my LITTLE 200T !!:msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:



I heard the guys a real slacker


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## Sprintcar (Jan 16, 2013)

barneyrb said:


> Been raining and freezing here long enough I thought I saw an old bearded midget building this huge boat.



Fixed it.

Musta been SS or some midget in Canada.


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## luckydad (Jan 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I heard the guys a real slacker



And a water logged one this week!!:msp_thumbdn::msp_thumbdn:


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

luckydad said:


> And a water logged one this week!!:msp_thumbdn::msp_thumbdn:



We've got a new 461 setting here.........Jon's gonna have it ready to ship this afternoon it looks like .


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## sgrizz (Jan 16, 2013)

Once again ,Great thread mastermind and looking foward to the outcome of this.


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## Currently (Jan 16, 2013)

(whine)

When is it gonna be my turn!

(/whine)

:too_sad:


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## JakeLeg (Jan 16, 2013)

Subscribed opcorn: Hey Randy nice work love your threads, more pics


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## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> None Dennis. I just (sort of by accident) found that a wider squish seems to run better on the same engine with all else being the same.
> 
> Talk to me.....what are your thoughts? You know I'm open minded and all about learning.



First........How much wider is the cut squish?......Is it a tapered cut?.....If so how much?


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## thomas1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Lookin' good, Randy.


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## o8f150 (Jan 16, 2013)

watsonr said:


> He's not really stuck inside, just afraid he'll melt!



sh** doesn't melt,, it floats


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> First........How much wider is the cut squish?......Is it a tapered cut?.....If so how much?



I took .060 out.....it's only tapered at the edge of the chamber.......a few thousandths. 

With .035 it's blowing 190psi.


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## bryanr2 (Jan 16, 2013)

I know this is the wrong thread, but this is the best place to put our ol' buddy Randy on the spot....... so are we gonna see a build thread on this new echo top handle saw?


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

bryanr2 said:


> I know this is the wrong thread, but this is the best place to put our ol' buddy Randy on the spot....... so are we gonna see a build thread on this new echo top handle saw?



Yes we will.


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## tlandrum (Jan 16, 2013)

190 is spot on in my opinion.i also like the greater squish but i think there would be a point that it gets to great of a span and wont have good flame travel.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 16, 2013)

Lookin good Mr. Randy, That lathe work is pretty neat. Didn't know you could do that to one. That one ought to be a bad boy.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 16, 2013)

Whats it cost to mod a 088 or 880? If there is a noticable difference i maybe interested.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

tlandrum said:


> 190 is spot on in my opinion.i also like the greater squish but i think there would be a point that it gets to great of a span and wont have good flame travel.



I totally agree with everything you just said.

I'll have to say that the engines I've been putting extra squish in some to run better. They idle smoother and just seem to run better. It's tough to explain.....but I think you know what I'm saying. 



stihl sawing said:


> Lookin good Mr. Randy, That lathe work is pretty neat. Didn't know you could do that to one. That one ought to be a bad boy.



Same here. 



2treeornot2tree said:


> Whats it cost to mod a 088 or 880? If there is a noticable difference i maybe interested.



The 088/880 is one of the most noticeable differences. They go from boring to fun to run. 

I get 250.00 on these too.....plus shipping of course.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Here's a few shots of the jug after slicking it up.......

I like to take the plating out of the transfers and do a little reshaping to help direct flow. 

Also the uppers are raised and aimed toward the intake side more acutely.


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## old-cat (Jan 16, 2013)

*Randy*

That squish energy is magic! I'm just learning about saw engines but my first experience with creating greater squish energy was just what you're seeing. They run BETTER! In every way.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

Now for the muffler. 

I replaced the stock screen with a stainless steel mesh that has a more open weave. This mesh is 62% open area. 

The stock outlet was opened about twice as large.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

A golf ball will almost fit in there. 






For guys that have never seen one of these beasts in the flesh........here's something that will help you relate to the size of one of these saws. The small carb fits a Husqvarna 55. 






Compression ended up at 190psi. I'll send a D handle home with the saw.....the owner might want it for ease of starting. 






Now for the most important detail........


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

old-cat said:


> That squish energy is magic! I'm just learning about saw engines but my first experience with creating greater squish energy was just what you're seeing. They run BETTER! In every way.



I'm liking what I'm seeing with the more open area.


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## metalspec (Jan 16, 2013)

Very nice work Randy! I just received an MS880 that I'm pretty sure needs Masterminded!


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## deye223 (Jan 16, 2013)

opcorn:


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 16, 2013)

Does modding the 880 reduce its life noticably?


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 16, 2013)

New stickers.................:msp_thumbup:


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## Jacob J. (Jan 16, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Does modding the 880 reduce its life noticably?



Depends on who is doing it and what they're doing...


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## tlandrum (Jan 16, 2013)

no it does not unless you take it to another level of performance. a correctly woods ported saw can in some cases give a saw a longer life than the stuffed up pressure cooker that they are from the factory.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Does modding the 880 reduce its life noticably?



I can't see where it would. Maintenance is the most important issue with any saw.


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## Jacob J. (Jan 16, 2013)

tlandrum said:


> no it does not unless you take it to another level of performance. a correctly woods ported saw can in some cases give a saw a longer life than the stuffed up pressure cooker that they are from the factory.



The Stihl ditto heads will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are...


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## nstueve (Jan 16, 2013)

cookie cutting movies!!! we want movies!!! Pictures only means it kinda happened... :tongue2:


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## josh1981 (Jan 16, 2013)

Nice saw what are the differences between this and the 084 you did up for me...


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

nstueve said:


> cookie cutting movies!!! we want movies!!! Pictures only means it kinda happened... :tongue2:



Hopefully this rain moves out tomorrow.


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## mdavlee (Jan 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Hopefully this rain moves out tomorrow.



So it can snow tomorrow night:msp_mad:


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## paccity (Jan 16, 2013)

my "ol roachy" might need some of this. if it will help pull the 60 with more chain speed.


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## Fire8 (Jan 16, 2013)

The big stihl looks like its going to be a runner, but I would take the big husky instead that's just me.


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## thomas1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> The Stihl ditto heads will be along shortly to tell you how wrong you are...



You speak of things that are unpossible.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

josh1981 said:


> Nice saw what are the differences between this and the 084 you did up for me...



Not a lot Josh. I used the numbers from your build. I liked the way it turned out. How's it running BTW?


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

I didn't write down the stock timing numbers n this one.......here's the finial numbers though.

Ex: 101°
Tr: 122°
In: 76°
Sq: .035
Comp: 190psi

No ignition advance. Josh's saw tore some tendons in my wrist.......I'm not doing that again.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

paccity said:


> my "ol roachy" might need some of this. if it will help pull the 60 with more chain speed.



This one will be happiest with an 8pin 404 or a 9 pin 3/8.


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## paccity (Jan 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> This one will be happiest with an 8pin 404 or a 9 pin 3/8.



mine i run 404. 8 pin w/ the 42 , 7 w/ the 60. just easier on the saw stepping down with the 60. would like it to pull the longer bar with out working it so hard with some more chain speed.


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## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2013)

paccity said:


> mine i run 404. 8 pin w/ the 42 , 7 w/ the 60. just easier on the saw stepping down with the 60. would like it to pull the longer bar with out working it so hard with some more chain speed.



I don't have enough time or the size of wood to really test these the way they need to be tested. I plan to use this one to noodle 36" blocks to test it. I'll make some video. Probably be a few days before we get to cut though.


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## showrguy (Jan 17, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Whats it cost to mod a 088 or 880? If there is a noticable difference i maybe interested.



hey there 2tree,
i dunno if you have a stock 088/880 ??
but your more than welcome to come try out my masterminded 880, i'm only about 1/2 hour from you depending on what part of lancaster your in..
i don't have any huge blocks of wood to whittle on at the moment..


if ya take me up on my offer, please don't bring any of them "amish mafia" guys with you......


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## showrguy (Jan 17, 2013)

oh, i wanted to add something for the owner of this big boy...
once you get this animal home you should look at adding to the exhaust deflector, make it longer toward the front..
i noticed my brake handle got a little, shall i say, warm ?? from randy testing her out when he was done..


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## Husqavarna Guy (Jan 17, 2013)

Cool build Randy nice work. Always looking foward to another one of you're builds. I like eating pie also!


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## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2013)

showrguy said:


> oh, i wanted to add something for the owner of this big boy...
> once you get this animal home you should look at adding to the exhaust deflector, make it longer toward the front..
> i noticed my brake handle got a little, shall i say, warm ?? from randy testing her out when he was done..



I was thinking about that too Chuck. That factory deflector is smaller than the one on a 044. 

I hesitate to add "extras" to someone's saw......especially if it's as nice as yours and this one.


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## josh1981 (Jan 17, 2013)

It's running great randy. Never fails to start when I need it too. But man I need a different handle.... Rips my hand off... 

So what would be Better elastostart or d handle? And how hard to change to 3/8 sprocket??


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## Stihl 041S (Jan 17, 2013)

josh1981 said:


> It's running great randy. Never fails to start when I need it too. But man I need a different handle.... Rips my hand off...
> 
> So what would be Better elastostart or d handle? And how hard to change to 3/8 sprocket??



The Stihl handle is like $5. And I don't get a death grip on it. 

Like keeping your knee bent starting a Harley. 

Plan for failure. LOL


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## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2013)

josh1981 said:


> It's running great randy. Never fails to start when I need it too. But man I need a different handle.... Rips my hand off...
> 
> So what would be Better elastostart or d handle? And how hard to change to 3/8 sprocket??



The sprocket is a breeze......just a C clip holds it on.....

I would get a D handle


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## SawTroll (Jan 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I didn't write down the stock timing numbers n this one.......here's the finial numbers though.
> 
> Ex: 101°
> Tr: 122°
> ...



That "sounds" like just 158 degrees exaust duration, maybe too little in a 120cc saw?


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## bryanr2 (Jan 17, 2013)

how would it play out between this 088 and the 3120 you built a while back?


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## showrguy (Jan 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I was thinking about that too Chuck. That factory deflector is smaller than the one on a 044.
> 
> I hesitate to add "extras" to someone's saw......especially if it's as nice as yours and this one.



i know what your saying..
i did'nt even notice it till a month or so ago myself, but, a longer deflector is gonna be needed to eliminate a fire..
if ya catch my drift ?? 

no biggie.


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## mdavlee (Jan 17, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> That "sounds" like just 158 degrees exaust duration, maybe too little in a 120cc saw?



That will make a nice wide power band to pull long bars. It may cut cookies faster with more exhaust but wouldn't be as forgiving as a work saw.


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## tlandrum (Jan 17, 2013)

158-162 are absolute perfect work saw numbers for the big saws. just becouse there bigger doesnt mean they port that much differently than there smaller brothers. i run 161ex in my 3120 work saws. what works , just works. sometimes as a sawbuilder we sometimes would really like to re inv ent the wheel when we are really better off just gettinn in and going for ther ride on the wheels thats done been proven to go round.


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## SawTroll (Jan 17, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> That will make a nice wide power band to pull long bars. It may cut cookies faster with more exhaust but wouldn't be as forgiving as a work saw.



What is wrong with a little more blow-down, I doubt the trade-off (blow-up) is doing that much damage?

162 sounds a lot better btw!


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## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> What is wrong with a little more blow-down, I doubt the trade-off (blow-up) is doing that much damage?
> 
> 162 sounds a lot better btw!



Ya ported many of these Niko? :msp_sneaky:


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Ya ported many of these Niko? :msp_sneaky:



i think the weight of that saw would rip Niko's arms out of the sockets ,think he likes the 50-60cc size saws


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## ptjeep (Jan 17, 2013)

I can tell by looking at the spec sheet that that saw will have terrible sideways balance. It wont handle like a 120cc saw should.


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## young (Jan 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Ya ported many of these Niko? :msp_sneaky:



oh course he "has".........on paper. :msp_rolleyes:


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## Scandy14 (Jan 17, 2013)

"I don't have any wood big enough to do it justice"

That's what she said..............lol


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## GBD (Jan 17, 2013)

young said:


> oh course he "has".........on paper. :msp_rolleyes:



Anything wrong with that? I prefer an electronic equivalent, though, but do you really think a seriouse port job starts cylinder in vise and carbide cutter in hand?


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## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2013)

GBD said:


> Anything wrong with that? I prefer an electronic equivalent, though, but do you really think a seriouse port job starts cylinder in vise and carbide cutter in hand?



It's impossible to know if you get good gains or build strong running saws unless you have a chance to run your engines against others that are being built by the "competition". Do you guys have any other guys to run against?

Seriously?


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## young (Jan 17, 2013)

GBD said:


> Anything wrong with that? I prefer an electronic equivalent, though, but do you really think a seriouse port job starts cylinder in vise and carbide cutter in hand?



no, just only when the person talking about what the "best" number hasnt had ANY real first hard experience, then to "comment" on someone who has.


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## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2013)

young said:


> no, just only when the person talking about what the "best" number hasnt had ANY real first hard experience, then to "comment" on someone who has.



I'm still grinding........I may be getting grouchy. I need a break to cut some wood.


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## josh1981 (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks randy


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## Walt41 (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm thinking...and it hurts.

Had two pieces of pecan pie today.

Oh, now I remember the point...torque verses horsepower, clear as steam boys...one is for dragging one is for bragging. 

Oh and for the record steam is clear, what we see is the water droplets that form around it.


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