# Big doug fir leaner needs to come down



## bigjayfromwa (Oct 3, 2007)

*****i just posted this on the arborist thread too. Just dont know if there are many arborists that deal with the big stuff*****

Just curious if there is any seasoned old growth fallers around here. I am going to do a job up here in the Pacific Northwest that involves a couple of old growth trees. The question is this is the first time i am doing one that is leaning towards the house. (most of them were just standard drops). It is too big to use a rope at the top to pull on it and there is no way in hell i could chunk it out. Maybe springboard it about 100ft up? 
Its a doug fir approx 12ft at the base. I have heard about guys jacking a tree right off the stump and it still barberchairing on them. 

Just curious if anyone out here had a good idea. 
Cutting it is no problem....(pumped husky 3120 with 72in bar)
Thanks


----------



## John Ellison (Oct 3, 2007)

What do you mean by " it is too big to use a rope at the top to pull on it" ?
Have you ever fell anything anywhere near that size? A 12' tree would intimidate me if it was the first time I ever fell any tree that was leaning towards a house.( It would still intimidate me) It might be the wrong tree to learn on.


----------



## BostonBull (Oct 3, 2007)

Pictures please! It is near impossible to diagnose without them


----------



## clearance (Oct 3, 2007)

Too big to use a rope? How about a 1" steel cable hooked to a big hoe?


----------



## slowp (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm sorry, I only used to cruise old growth timber. But I could tell you if it had defect or cull logs.


----------



## Treefidget (Oct 3, 2007)

IF the tree is solid you can cut out a block on the center of the back cut and put in a hydraulic jack. Doug Fir has got great holding wood if its thick enough.
Not too sound cocky but I have never seen a tree too big for a rope or a cable like 'clearance' said. 
Just for peace of mind if nothing else.
hope that helps.


----------



## ASD (Oct 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Too big to use a rope? How about a 1" steel cable hooked to a big hoe?



I WOULD DO THIS OR A CRAIN


----------



## GASoline71 (Oct 3, 2007)

You talkin' 12' around the base of the tree? or 12' across...

Big difference...

I agree that this might not be a good tree to learn on. If you aren't licensed and bonded here in the state of WA... you can get your a$$ handed to you if that tree falls on the house.

Silvey's are very expensive... and you can't just go rent one. Don't even think about using an automotive bottle jack to do it. 

Springboards at 100' up? are you nuts? 

Like clearance said... you might have to set a 1" line in it and attach it to a shovel or something.

I think you should skip this job if the tree is as big as you say it is.

my .02:taped: 

Gary


----------



## IchWarriorMkII (Oct 4, 2007)

GASoline71 said:


> You talkin' 12' around the base of the tree? or 12' across...
> 
> Big difference...
> 
> ...




Whats a shovel gonna do? Be a handle to pull on the rope with  

If you need to put a pull on it, find a GOOD operator and use cable. I'd use a tracked vehicle, and hope its got a hydrostatic drive or torque converter so you can ease the tension on, and hold it. I've seen a lot of rope and chains break when it comes to pulling. Granted, haven't jerked over any doug firs... but you're hard pressed to break a good cable. 


I tried to take a 6ft dbh cottonwood stem down when I was real green at falling... it was difficult to say the least. I'd say to pass the job up with a back lean towards a house.


----------



## polexie (Oct 4, 2007)

Pictures please, like Bull asked. Not only for diagnose, Ilike big tree pics.:angry2:


----------



## GASoline71 (Oct 4, 2007)

IchWarriorMkII said:


> Whats a shovel gonna do? Be a handle to pull on the rope with



LMAO... you obviously don't know what a "shovel" is do you?







Gary


----------



## Cedarkerf (Oct 4, 2007)

GASoline71 said:


> LMAO... you obviously don't know what a "shovel" is do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These are shovels ya silly. They even have loops to tie the 1" cable to. Sheesh Gary are you really from around here.


----------



## slowp (Oct 5, 2007)

*Shoveling out the truck*


----------



## Pacific (Oct 6, 2007)

Without pictures to see what you got to deal with its hard to give a answer.

It sounds like a job for a crane and take it down in pieces its the safest way. You can use a hoe to pull but you still have no real controll over the tree. My parents neighbours property had a couple 36" at the butt cedars with a heavy lean. The contractor had a EX200 Hitachi had a cable up into the tree back to the excavator still couldn't get the tree to go where they wanted it.

slowp that old heal boom looks like a antique  

I guess I'am used to seeing 3800 Madills and 300 Hitachi's.


----------



## 2dogs (Oct 8, 2007)

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but this is one of those...if you gotta ask then you have no business trying to fall this tree. Your big saw and long bar don't mean squat if you don't know what to do with them. Pass this job up, grab a chair and a cooler and enjoy the show. Don't forget to take pics and a video of the takedown.


----------



## Canyonbc (Oct 8, 2007)

I dont no much about old growthers...and i know it cant really be excat...but does anyone have a educated guess...on how tall this tree is???

Pictures would be awesome....trees that big are just damn amazing. 

How much lean is in the tree?


----------



## Canyonbc (Oct 11, 2007)

I know this could be answered with a couple pics of the tree...but since there arent any i will ask..

how much lean is there towards the tree...

Why not limb up the leaning side....completly take all the weight off that side...then get a shovel with a 1 inch cable..

Wouldnt that do the trick, in most situations???

I have no experince with old growth or trees that big....but what do you think???


----------



## ArtB (Oct 18, 2007)

I take it the 12 ft is circumference (biggest known D Fir remaining in King Co is in a park at the North end of the county and is about that size - just under 4 ft DBH) 

Pulled over a Cottonwood that size outside Renton a few years back (just under 4 ft DBH) . Direct lean over a pumphouse. 

Used relatively serious cabling (wire rope, double 5/8 in a couple of places), double block. In the 'leaner' pix you can make out 2 3/8 cables off to the right that provide a big 40 foot hinge base (cottonwood not anywhere as tensile capable as DFir)

Pull end of pull cable went to 12,000# winch with truck chained to 2 ft dia maple and JD crawler for good measure. 

For Fun, parked an old Dodge at the aim point - hit'er good!


----------



## Canyonbc (Oct 19, 2007)

Really...that is it only 4 ft dbh...man really would excepted it to be bigger than that.


----------



## rbtree (Oct 19, 2007)

ArtB said:


> I take it the 12 ft is circumference (biggest known D Fir remaining in King Co is in a park at the North end of the county and is about that size - just under 4 ft DBH)
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Canyonbc (Oct 19, 2007)

Wow...

that sounds more like it...4ft, is large but didnt seem like the biggest. 

Thats pretty awesome that you have been able to work on some trees that size. ...great pics


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 19, 2007)

bigjayfromwa said:


> Just curious if there is any seasoned old growth fallers around here. I have heard about guys jacking a tree right off the stump and it still barberchairing on them.



A set of double Silvey's is about as close to being a miracle worker you're gonna get on a big leaner from the ground. Here's a 6' 10" 17,000bf Doug fir out of Stirling City, Ca. with a single in it. 228' of saw logs. At least 250' tall. 084 with a 54" bar making the buck.


----------



## Canyonbc (Oct 19, 2007)

wow that is some amazing work...

biggest firs i have gotten to work on are 35'' dbh...and i though that was a good size


----------



## slowp (Oct 19, 2007)

Ahhhhh, memories of 3 log loads..2 for bunk logs and then the big one.


----------



## 2dogs (Oct 19, 2007)

Great pics guys. Thanks!


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 19, 2007)

slowp said:


> Ahhhhh, memories of 3 log loads..2 for bunk logs and then the big one.



Remember the off hiway loads?


----------



## Buzz 880 (Oct 19, 2007)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> A set of double Silvey's is about as close to being a miracle worker you're gonna get on a big leaner from the ground. Here's a 6' 10" 17,000bf Doug fir out of Stirling City, Ca. with a single in it. 228' of saw logs. At least 250' tall. 084 with a 54" bar making the buck.



What size saw did you use for falling that monster?


----------



## GASoline71 (Oct 19, 2007)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Remember the off hiway loads?



Yup... 

We also had logging trains that ran through my hometown that had one, and 3 log loads on the cars.

Gary


----------



## rbtree (Oct 19, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> What size saw did you use for falling that monster?


 Dennis told ya, right in the part you quoted....:deadhorse:


----------



## Gologit (Oct 19, 2007)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Remember the off hiway loads?



No stakes in those days...just cheese blocks and gut wrappers. Helluva load.


----------



## Gologit (Oct 19, 2007)

GASoline71 said:


> Yup...
> 
> We also had logging trains that ran through my hometown that had one, and 3 log loads on the cars.
> 
> Gary



:hmm3grin2orange: We had one too. It ran from Stirling City, through Paradise where I lived, and on down to Chico. It ran right below the high school and on Friday's we'd ditch school early and catch the logging train. We'd have to jump before it got into Diamond's mill but it never went very fast. LOL...that was a year or two ago.


----------



## Buzz 880 (Oct 20, 2007)

rbtree said:


> Dennis told ya, right in the part you quoted....:deadhorse:



I thought it said 084 making the bucking cut.I see a another saw on the ground just wondered if he used a different saw for falling.084 is a big saw to lug around falling and limbing all day.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 20, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> I thought it said 084 making the bucking cut.I see a another saw on the ground just wondered if he used a different saw for falling.084 is a big saw to lug around falling and limbing all day.




Hey Buzz....

That was a strip my boy and I cut for Erickson Helicopter. It was about a 40 minute hike up river and we packed the 084 and the jacks in just to cut 4 or 5 big fir and left them both on that stump to be flown out later. I left 3 big fir that were hanging out over the river that looked rotten. Reason being, they told us if we got anything in the river it was 3 days in the electric chair. We cut the rest of that strip with 066's using 36" bars. It took us about 2weeks to finish the strip.


----------



## aquan8tor (Oct 20, 2007)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Hey Buzz....
> 
> That was a strip my boy and I cut for Erickson Helicopter. It was about a 40 minute hike up river and we packed the 084 and the jacks in just to cut 4 or 5 big fir and left them both on that stump to be flown out later. I left 3 big fir that were hanging out over the river that looked rotten. Reason being, they told us if we got anything in the river it was 3 days in the electric chair. We cut the rest of that strip with 066's using 36" bars. It took us about 2weeks to finish the strip.






Do you just bore the bar right in & plunge a cut at an angle to remove the pie wedge for the silvey jack?? I've never seen one, so I'm curious as to how they work. A climber I know said he saw another tree company using one on a big 4' poplar to correct a lean, but didn't see the cut for the jack being made.


----------



## Buzz 880 (Oct 20, 2007)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Hey Buzz....
> 
> That was a strip my boy and I cut for Erickson Helicopter. It was about a 40 minute hike up river and we packed the 084 and the jacks in just to cut 4 or 5 big fir and left them both on that stump to be flown out later. I left 3 big fir that were hanging out over the river that looked rotten. Reason being, they told us if we got anything in the river it was 3 days in the electric chair. We cut the rest of that strip with 066's using 36" bars. It took us about 2weeks to finish the strip.



Hey Dennis
That looks like alot of fun minus lugging the jacks and the 084 for 40 min. i don't really like the thought of that.Do you cut much timber that size anymore?


----------



## Sprig (Oct 20, 2007)

Big trees and a nice pic ta boot


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 20, 2007)

aquan8tor said:


> Do you just bore the bar right in & plunge a cut at an angle to remove the pie wedge for the silvey jack?? I've never seen one, so I'm curious as to how they work. A climber I know said he saw another tree company using one on a big 4' poplar to correct a lean, but didn't see the cut for the jack being made.



A top cut, bottom cut, and 2 bore cuts.(plunge)


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Oct 20, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> Hey Dennis
> That looks like alot of fun minus lugging the jacks and the 084 for 40 min. i don't really like the thought of that.Do you cut much timber that size anymore?



I had to retire in 2003 Buzz....had both hips replaced from all that packing....Hahahahaha! 
My boy still cuts a few 4 and 5 footers when working on the conventional side, but cutting mostly behind the processors now days. 
Cut some big wood in the glory days though! Here's a nice sugar pine I cut in the mid 80's, out of Chester, Ca.


----------



## Buzz 880 (Oct 21, 2007)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> I had to retire in 2003 Buzz....had both hips replaced from all that packing....Hahahahaha!
> My boy still cuts a few 4 and 5 footers when working on the conventional side, but cutting mostly behind the processors now days.
> Cut some big wood in the glory days though! Here's a nice sugar pine I cut in the mid 80's, out of Chester, Ca.



What does your son just cut the oversized that the processor can't cut?Nice pic's Dennis love to see that big timber keep 'um coming.Biggest we get to cut here is 4-5 foot white pine and those are getting few and far between.There is still lots here they just don't paint to many to cut.


----------



## RPM (Oct 21, 2007)

Seems as though this thread has evolved into a show and tell of big tree slaying - which is fine by me. As most of noted these monsters are few and far between. Although there are still a few lurkers out there.

This Doug-fir was located on southern Vancouver Island near Port Renfrew and measured approx. 10' 6'' across the butt and was about 60m (200') tall and measured out approx. 85m3 of nice tight grained timber in front of the mill.

There were several of these vets scattered throughout this block and in others within the valley. The Red Creek fir located just south of this area near Port Renfrew is reported to be the largest Douglas-fir in BC....note the top has been blown off a few times over the last few hundred years of its life.

http://www.portrenfrew.com/redfir.htm


----------



## RPM (Oct 21, 2007)

Some more of the same tree.....in its final stage. This tree was on a road R/W so it was bucked to shorter lengths for ease of handling - although the hoe operator was a little impatient in waiting for the loader to help him out.


----------



## Pacific (Oct 21, 2007)

Couldn't you have taken a Madill Buncher to drop that tree and brought in the Waratah 628 tree processor to limb it and chunk it  

You don't see many fir that size anymore your going to have the tree huggers mad at you  

What are or were they hauling with ? HDX off highways ?

A big tree like that would be good for a specialty cutter probably could get some nice beams out them.


----------



## Buzz 880 (Oct 21, 2007)

Pacific said:


> Couldn't you have taken a Madill Buncher to drop that tree and brought in the Waratah 628 tree processor to limb it and chunk it
> 
> You don't see many fir that size anymore your going to have the tree huggers mad at you
> 
> ...



I don't know about out there but here the way of the buncher has sure screwed it up for all us conventional guys.


RPM nice pic's that is sure a nice tree and looks better bucked up in logs then left on the stump to rot just to please the tree huggers.


----------



## sILlogger (Oct 21, 2007)

RPM said:


> Seems as though this thread has evolved into a show and tell of big tree slaying - which is fine by me. As most of noted these monsters are few and far between. Although there are still a few lurkers out there.
> 
> This Doug-fir was located on southern Vancouver Island near Port Renfrew and measured approx. 10' 6'' across the butt and was about 60m (200') tall and measured out approx. 85m3 of nice tight grained timber in front of the mill.
> 
> ...





RPM said:


> Some more of the same tree.....in its final stage. This tree was on a road R/W so it was bucked to shorter lengths for ease of handling - although the hoe operator was a little impatient in waiting for the loader to help him out.



I was born in the wrong part of the world!!!


----------



## RPM (Oct 21, 2007)

No, definitely not a buncher block here. Although, not far from here we started using Madill bunchers in the 2nd growth (this was about 97-98) and the hand fallers definitely weren't pleased. Waratahs were soon to follow....

The camp I worked out of were using Hayes off highway trucks (16' bunks). The road system out of the block had a nasty adverse pull (15-17%) for about 2.5km - but no real problem for those trucks - lighter loads was about all (70-80 ton vs-100-120).

These logs probably ended up in the Fraser River and then got squared up and sent south into Bellingham for reman. The clears out of those logs would have been incredilble - it was around 850 years old. Yah, it was definitely an old impressive tree, but I have to agree it looks a whole lot sexier all dressed up and loaded out on a truck


----------



## gavin (Oct 21, 2007)

really nice pics. must be fun falling trees that big eh? a few years ago i was laying out heli wood along the san juan. still some nice big fir and cedar pumpkins out there, but i didn't see anything nearly that big. pretty much all of the stuff i laid out was in real gnarly ground.


----------



## RPM (Oct 22, 2007)

I love the 'whooooosh' of the crown through the air and the jesus big thump when they hit the ground.

This is heli wood in the San Juan about 1997-98 - south side in a drainage called Garbage Creek - follow the Bear Creek main up from the Lens main (I think - too long ago to remember). What fire crew type are you on - Unit crew / IA / Helitack / Rap?


----------



## gavin (Oct 22, 2007)

i did a bunch of work in dent creek, bear creek, and various places along the san juan. that was a few years ago when i was doing forest engineering (i didn't go to school for it or anything, just kinda worked my way into it). i'm on a unit crew and love every minute of it. haha i can't wait for fire season, may seems so far away.


----------



## Pacific (Oct 22, 2007)

Bunchers and Processors won't completely eliminate handfalling,limbing and bucking. The terrian and size of wood limits what a buncher can chop down and what a dangle head can process. The HTH 626 can handle up to a 34 inch diameter tree the other popular HTH 624 can handle a 30 inch diameter tree.

Hoe chucking has saved lots of time in logging. Where wood that used to be yarded can be chucked. 

The fallers that work the hardest is the heli logging operations lots of work climbing every tree limbing it drop the top climb back down notch it so the grapple on the copter to snap it off.


----------



## RPM (Oct 22, 2007)

_The fallers that work the hardest is the heli logging operations lots of work climbing every tree limbing it drop the top climb back down notch it so the grapple on the copter to snap it off._

Single tree selection, like you are describing is definitely specialized work, although not quit the norm everywhere. It may account for for 1/1o% of the cut on the coast. You need a pretty nice stand (Coastal wood - western red cedar and cypress) to make it pay. I agree, and so does any other climber on this site, that climbing and topping is a chore. This also includes any high riggers (hook tender types out there as well)......and this probably leads into a whole other thread.

As far as processors go though, the only limbing and bucking that goes on around here is for heli wood. Everything else, including cable ground, is machine processed roadside or landing. Everything is bush run into the mill so all sorting and processing is done in the woods - no dryland sort Coastal fallers get worked either way - climbing or regular falling & bucking - esp. in the old growth.

Some pics of the processor choking on some big Doug-fir and hemlock....


----------



## RPM (Oct 23, 2007)

A couple of more of the landing....


----------



## Pacific (Oct 23, 2007)

RPM where is that operation that logging truck looks familliar it looks like a Radar truck.


----------



## RPM (Oct 23, 2007)

Pacific said:


> RPM where is that operation that logging truck looks familiar it looks like a Radar truck.



Central Interior......those are scud missiles disguised as Doug-fir peelers


----------

