# Damper or No Damper



## DFK (Apr 14, 2015)

We are having an old chimmney rebuilt. The old fireplace had a damper.
The plan is to get a (new) Fireplace Insert and heat the front of the house with it.
The room is not large enough for a free standing stove.

Question:
The Brick man said the he "Was Not" going to install a Damper.....
Is this a good or bad idea????

The new Insert will have a steel flue liner ran all the way to the top of the chimmney.
But..... If we ever deside to do something different, Like install Gas Logs or use an Open Fireplace... Then what???

Thanks
David


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## zogger (Apr 14, 2015)

Seems like your insert should have it's own built in damper.

I personally don't use dampers, if I want to slow down the burn, I put larger pieces in. That's just me, most people use them.


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## turnkey4099 (Apr 15, 2015)

The answer may be in your insert installation instructions. Dampers where common back in the day of crude stoves with very poor control over air input. Modern stoves usually do not need a damper.

Harry K


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## blades (Apr 15, 2015)

No Damper, block off plate assembly top and bottom with new liner passing through. Bottom block off plate very important or you will be back singing the blues.


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## Ronaldo (Apr 15, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> The answer may be in your insert installation instructions. Dampers where common back in the day of crude stoves with very poor control over air input. Modern stoves usually do not need a damper.
> 
> Harry K


Agree with Harry. Most all modern wood burning appliances control burn rate by the amount of combustion air that is allowed to reach the fire, so there is no need for an exhaust damper. You should check out recommendations of the particular model you intend to install.


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## Whitespider (Apr 15, 2015)

The OP is talkin' 'bout a fireplace chimney damper... not a damper to be used with a stove or insert.
Once the insert and liner is installed the damper could not be used... but the OP is concerned with "what if" he decides to go back to an open fireplace someday.



DFK said:


> _*Question:
> The Brick man said the he "Was Not" going to install a Damper.....
> Is this a good or bad idea????*_


Bad idea... if you ever do remove the insert you'll need some way to close off the chimney when the fireplace is not in use. Although it is possible to add a damper later... usually at the top of the chimney and operated by a cable/linkage affair.



turnkey4099 said:


> _*Modern stoves usually do not need a damper.*_


Need?? Maybe... maybe not.
The performance of any stove _may_ be improved with a flue damper, even the most modern stove... but you'll never know if ya' don't try it.

The number one priority for a stove maker is to comply with EPA regulations; anything and everything else has to be, out of necessity, a distant second... if the appliance can't certify... it can't be sold... your company goes broke.
The reason flue dampers are not recommended by makers of modern stoves is due to "regulations"... adding a flue damper "modifies" the stove's emissions control system (so to speak). But that does not mean performance can't be improved by using one. If a stove maker recommended a flue damper it would sort'a be like a car maker providing instructions on how to modify the emissions control system to obtain better performance.

Don't buy into the propaganda... you're being fooled.
"They" don't want you to have that much control of _your_ appliance... "they" believe you are and idiot that needs to be protected from yourself.
Think 'bout it...

There is no way I'd install any wood-fired appliance without a flue damper... for the couple dollars it costs I'd much rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. And the truth is... I've never seen a wood-fired appliance that didn't benefit from a flue damper at least some of the time.
*


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## GVS (Apr 15, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> The answer may be in your insert installation instructions. Dampers where common back in the day of crude stoves with very poor control over air input. Modern stoves usually do not need a damper.
> 
> Harry K


The flue damper does several things:it will slow down the burn by slowing 
the air flow through the stove.It will also slow down the heat loss out of the flue.If closed down too much it will build creosote in the stack.


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## DFK (Apr 15, 2015)

Thanks WhiteSpider.

Will see what I can do about getting a Fireplace Chimney Damper Installed.
The brick man has been on hold for several days due to all the rain.
Weather man said it is going to rain for another week. Boo Hoo.

We have just started looking for a new Fireplace Insert...... 
These new fangled wood burners are all new to me.
Will be looking for a bit of advice soon after the chimney is completed.

David


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## Whitespider (Apr 15, 2015)

Question everything...

Notice how many stove makers instruct you to measure the draft, and if necessary use a barometric damper to adjust it... basically to the same draft used for EPA certification.
Well, the end result of a flue damper is the same thing... but without introducing cooler air into the flue, and without sucking more air from the room. A flue damper, like a barometric damper, reduces the "suck" acting on the firebox... the combustion air intake adjustment cannot do that, it can only adjust flow relative to the "suck". When someone says your a modern stove needs a barometric damper to adjust draft, and then says your modern stove can't use a flue damper... well... that's just silly. If a barometric damper can be used, a flue damper can be used in it's place... plain and simple. A flue damper, used correctly, actually does a better job than a barometric damper because it keeps more heat in the box and doesn't cool the flue gasses.

The problem with a flue damper is you _might_ screw it up and smolder the fire (causing evil particulates to be emitted )... so "they" tell you to use a barometric damper so you're protected from yourself.

Question everything...
*


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## nathon918 (Apr 15, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Question everything...


are you the person we should ask?


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## Whitespider (Apr 15, 2015)

nathon918 said:


> _*are you the person we should ask?*_


The Russian proverb _"doveryai no proveryai"_ applies.
*


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## Fubar (Apr 15, 2015)

dampers are also used to control a overdraft problem , on most modern stoves and inserts this is not a problem , like whitespider said what if you one day you just wanted to use it as a fireplace .


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## Whitespider (Apr 15, 2015)

Fubar said:


> _*dampers are also used to control a overdraft problem , on most modern stoves and inserts this is not a problem*_


Actually, overdraft is more of a problem on modern stoves than with older stoves, and quite common... especially with taller chimneys in cold climates.
You can read about it here...

http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

John Gulland (Gulland Associates, Inc.) is highly respected in the industry... the link above is not just some guy with an ax-to-grind.
You can read about who John Gulland is, and how he's been involved with the industry for over 40 years at this link...

http://www.gulland.ca/abtjohn.htm

*Doveryai no proveryai.*
*


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## nathon918 (Apr 15, 2015)

Fubar said:


> like whitespider said what if you one day you just wanted to use it as a fireplace .


did no one read the OP post? 
the OP said he wanted one incase he takes the insert out later...
DFK have the mason put the damper frame in place but just leave the door out...the door usually just sits on top of the frame...

Whitespider we're not in Russia...speak American please


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## Whitespider (Apr 15, 2015)

nathon918 said:


> _*Whitespider we're not in Russia...speak American please*_


Trust, but verify.
*


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## nathon918 (Apr 15, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Trust, but verify.
> *


 I don't remember pressing 1 for English???


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## greendohn (Apr 15, 2015)

I like the idea of a damper,,may not use it or need it, but it's ice to have one..


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## Whitespider (Apr 15, 2015)

nathon918 said:


> _*...speak American please*_





nathon918 said:


> _*I don't remember pressing 1 for English???*_


So which do you prefer I use, American or English??
*


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## nathon918 (Apr 15, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> So which do you prefer I use, American or English??
> *


well Mexican citizens = American citizens...so American = Spanish...?


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## Ronaldo (Apr 16, 2015)

Are we talking inserts here or pre fab fireplace? Most inserts I am familiar with don't have room for an actual flue damper. Fireplace, yes you need a damper.


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## nathon918 (Apr 16, 2015)

Ronaldo said:


> Are we talking inserts here or pre fab fireplace? Most inserts I am familiar with don't have room for an actual flue damper. Fireplace, yes you need a damper.


neither...masonry chimney/fireplace


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## NSMaple1 (Apr 16, 2015)

*When someone says your a modern stove needs a barometric damper to adjust draft, and then says your modern stove can't use a flue damper... well... that's just silly. If a barometric damper can be used, a flue damper can be used in it's place... plain and simple. A flue damper, used correctly, actually does a better job than a barometric damper because it keeps more heat in the box and doesn't cool the flue gasses.*

That's not quite right. A barometric damper is used most times to automatically maintain a constant draft. A key/pipe damper is restricting draft all of the time, unless it is set wide open. My baro is closed 90% of the time, but when the wind blows it opens & prevents overdraft. Set it & forget it.


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## Whitespider (Apr 16, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> _*That's not quite right. A barometric damper is used most times to automatically maintain a constant draft. A key/pipe damper is restricting draft all of the time, unless it is set wide open. My baro is closed 90% of the time, but when the wind blows it opens & prevents overdraft. Set it & forget it.*_


I said a flue damper _*can*_ be used in place of a barometric damper... I didn't say it was automatic.
I also said, _"The performance of any stove *may* be improved with a flue damper"_... I didn't guarantee it would improve every setup... I even finished that with, _"but you'll never know if ya' don't try it."_ I understand the _"set it & forget it"_ thing... I'm all about that... but unless the rest of your setup is "set 'n' forget" you ain't gained sour owl crap in that department. My bet is the air adjustments you make far outnumber any you'd make to the flue damper... especially since _you say_ the baro don't do anything 90% of the time.

So you're sayin' a flue damper couldn't be used on windy days with _*your*_ setup?? And, just because _*your*_ baro is closed 90% of the time in no way means mine would be. For you to say, _"That's not quite right" _based on just one setup (_*yours*_) is not an objective statement... it's a subjective statement. I just gotta' ask... if you haven't tried a flue damper with your _current setup_, how can you possibly know it wouldn't improve the overall performance verses the baro?? Seriously... how can you possibly know??

I didn't make any statement of "absoluteness"... but yours is. That's something that happens quite often on this board... such as the statements that that (all) modern stoves don't need, or will see no added benefit from a flue damper. The _"half the wood, twice the heat"_ thing is another one. The list goes on and on... Unfortunately too many are just regurgitation of the propaganda... or simply subjectively based in the need, or desire to believe in the magic. It really is a disservice to anyone comin' here lookin' for information... there ain't no right way/wrong way... there ain't no across-the-board absolutes... there ain't no one "size fits all"... and there sure-as-hell ain't no friggin' magic.

A flue damper gives you instantaneous, variable control of the draft... for just one example, if you want higher draft to get a fire started quickly, you open the damper for a couple minutes. Are there drawbacks?? Sure there are... just as there are drawbacks to a baro. Personally, the drawbacks of a baro introducing cooler air into the flue and sucking more air from the room (even 10% of the time) is not something I'm comfortable with. And to use your justification... 90% of the time my flue damper isn't touched.

If a barometric damper is what you like, then that's what you should have... it's _*your*_ setup.
If a baro works a certain way with _*your*_ setup, that great... but that's _*your*_ setup.
None of that negates anything I've posted... which is, _"a flue damper *can* be used in place of a barometric damper"_ and _"The performance of any stove *may* be improved with a flue damper"_ and "_A flue damper, *used correctly*, actually does a better job than a barometric damper because it keeps more heat in the box and doesn't cool the flue gasses._"
What part of those statements are _"*not quite right*"_??
*


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## Chris-PA (Apr 16, 2015)

For a fireplace put a damper up top - it is activated by a chain that runs down inside the flue and comes out the bottom inside the fireplace. If you put an insert in then you can just leave it open or remove it up top. That way there is no structure in the top of the firebox to interfere with installing an insert.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 16, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> My baro is closed 90% of the time


Mine is open 90% of the time...


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## nathon918 (Apr 16, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> Mine is open 90% of the time...


I don't have one...


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## turnkey4099 (Apr 16, 2015)

Boils down to:

Masonry fireplace - yes you need a flue damper to close off the chimney when you don't have a fire going.

Insert - no, you don't need a flue damper that goes in the stove pipe. Of course with an insert installation that closes off the entire opening you would have a hard time operating one installed in the exhaust pipe anyhow.

Hawrry K


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## brenndatomu (Apr 16, 2015)

Let's review, an open masonry fireplace needs a flue damper. If one is not installed right from the get go, then a top mounted one can be put on the chimney top with a cable or chain down through the flue so you can open and close it from inside the house.
If you are putting an insert in, you won't be able to use a barometric damper, those require an exposed stove pipe to install.
Depending on the height of your chimney, and which stove/insert you would install, you may want to put in a key damper whether you "need" it or not. If your chimney is over 20' tall, I would definitely want one, draft can (and does) increase greatly when the temp drops. When it gets real cold out, my lil stove in the fireplace was almost uncontrollable before I partially blocked off some of the "EPA" intake holes, and my chimney is only a bit less then 20' tall. I will be opening the intake holes back up and installing a key damper as soon as I "get the time"
A key damper can still be installed even with a insert style stove, you just need to fabricate some kind of extension handle to operate the damper.


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## Oxford (Apr 16, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> *When someone says your a modern stove needs a barometric damper to adjust draft, and then says your modern stove can't use a flue damper... well... that's just silly. If a barometric damper can be used, a flue damper can be used in it's place... plain and simple. A flue damper, used correctly, actually does a better job than a barometric damper because it keeps more heat in the box and doesn't cool the flue gasses.*
> 
> That's not quite right. A barometric damper is used most times to automatically maintain a constant draft. A key/pipe damper is restricting draft all of the time, unless it is set wide open. My baro is closed 90% of the time, but when the wind blows it opens & prevents overdraft. Set it & forget it.



Actually, Whitespider, O Sage of the Cedar, you really are not quite right. In the case of a stove that is designed to have its heat output controlled by combustion air intake, the burn rate is absolutely dependent on draft, since it is the negative pressure of the draft that introduces oxygen into the combustion chamber. As you open or close the combustion air dampers, in order to correspondingly, and at least nominally predictably, increase airflow, the draft has to stay constant. If you were to open the air intake but close the flue damper all the way, the heat output of the stove would not increase, because there's no negative pressure to induce draft (oxygen flow) into the fire. That's not how the stove is designed to run, and that's certainly not the manufacturer's intent when they specify a barometric damper, which you know good and well. They don't want to use a damper to vary draft, they want to use it to keep draft constant, which is almost the exact opposite of what you want to do. I do not own an EPA stove, but my understanding is that secondary combustion is almost completely dependent on proper draft, which in the case of someone who insisted on controlling his draft by the seat of his pants- pardon me, I should have said "using common sense, the way the Framers of the Constitution and the voices in his head intended"- would almost certainly lead to results that were atypical of those achieved by people who actually installed and operated their stoves according to the manufacturer's instructions.

As to your oft-repeated bleating about using a barometric damper's introducing cold air into the space, that's a red herring. You're either going to operate the stove with the right draft or you're not. If you want it to operate properly, you'll give it the right draft. If you don't, don't, but at that moment you give up the right to complain that it doesn't operate correctly. Having the right draft has a whole host of good effects on any burner, including maintaining stable stack gas velocity, ensuring good mixing of fuel gas and air, and maintaining safe stack temperatures. Finally, in our society, if barometric dampers caused chimney fires, you wouldn't be able to buy one at any price.

Cue bloviating pseudoscientific twaddle in 10, 9, 8......


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

Oxford said:


> _*If you were to open the air intake but close the flue damper all the way...*_


I don't believe I've suggested using the key damper is such a way... but suppose an idiot might.
Lets review...


Whitespider said:


> _*"They" don't want you to have that much control of your appliance... "they" believe you are and idiot that needs to be protected from yourself.*_





Whitespider said:


> _*A flue damper, used correctly...*_





Whitespider said:


> _*The problem with a flue damper is you might screw it up and smolder the fire (causing evil particulates to be emitted*_ )_*...*_


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

Oxford said:


> _*Cue bloviating pseudoscientific twaddle in 10, 9, 8......*_


You don't own a EPA certified stove... but ya' still believe in the magic, don't ya??
*


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## DFK (Apr 17, 2015)

Up-Date
We are going to get a Flue Damper installed in our new Full Masonry Fireplace and Chimney.
The door of the damper will be removed when the insert is installed.
If , and that is just an if, we ever remove the insert the damper door can be re-installed then.

Our brick man has been building Chimneys for 50 years. 
He has never built one seen a chimney with a round flue tile in it.
The brick and tiles were purchesed from the largest supplier here in North Alabama.
The supplier told him this is the first time they have ever ordered round flue tiles.
I requested round tiles.

Question: What is a Key Damper????

I am quite sure I know what Sour Owl Crap is.

Thanks
David


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

DFK said:


> _*Question: What is a Key Damper????*_


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## brenndatomu (Apr 17, 2015)

DFK said:


> He has never built one seen a chimney with a round flue tile in it.
> The brick and tiles were purchesed from the largest supplier here in North Alabama.
> The supplier told him this is the first time they have ever ordered round flue tiles.
> I requested round tiles.


Dunno what size you are going with, but I'd make sure it is big enough to get a stainless steel liner down it once you go to an insert. A flue big enough to work well with a fireplace will be too big to work correctly with most modern stoves, a liner solves that problem. Also, if most of the chimney is external to the house, a _insulated_ SS liner will improve draft immensely!


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> _*Also, if most of the chimney is external to the house, a insulated SS liner will improve draft immensely!*_


And then you'll need a key damper 

Sorry... couldn't help myself.
*


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## DFK (Apr 20, 2015)

The flue tiles are 12" in diameter.
And the chimney is on an outside wall.
We plan to pull a SS liner up to the top of the chimney.

I might.... Just for the fun of it build a "Fireplace" fire before the new insert is installed.
David


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## turnkey4099 (Apr 20, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> And then you'll need a key damper
> 
> Sorry... couldn't help myself.
> *


And some sorta rube Goldberg device to operate it seeing as how it is sealed up and out of reach behind the insert facing.

Harry K


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## olyman (Apr 20, 2015)

DFK said:


> Up-Date
> We are going to get a Flue Damper installed in our new Full Masonry Fireplace and Chimney.
> The door of the damper will be removed when the insert is installed.
> If , and that is just an if, we ever remove the insert the damper door can be re-installed then.
> ...


iffin he was a awake fireplace maker,,he should have done the research long ago, that says that round tile liners,,FLOW, and square ones RESIST flow...corners....


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## Whitespider (Apr 20, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> _*And some sorta rube Goldberg device...*_


Not necessarily.
You can use the same hole the fireplace damper rod uses... a simple extension from the insert key damper and out the hole.
KISS principle.
*


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## DFK (Apr 21, 2015)

Olyman:
Remember now this is Alabama.... It does not get all that cold down here so just maybe that is why no one has ever heard of round flue tiles...... I dont know. Was talking to another man that does home remodeling for a living. He said that he has torn down lots of old chimnies over the years and has never seen a round flue tile.... 

Spiderman: 
I think the KEY damper in the SS liner will be operated as you have stated above.
It is just going to have to look nice so the wife wont complain.
The old fireplace damper was operaded by a handle up in the top of the firebox.
David


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## Whitespider (Apr 21, 2015)

DFK said:


> *The old fireplace damper was operaded by a handle up in the top of the firebox.*


Yeah... that type is a pain.
*


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