# New Echo CS 450 with clutch driven oiler.



## Analyst Man (Jan 7, 2010)

Anyone have any experience with the new Echo CS 450? I see that it has a clutch driven oiler and wondered if this is an advantage over the automatic/adjustable oiler found on the CS 370 and CS 400? Any other information would be appreciated too.
Thanks,


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## Analyst Man (Jan 10, 2010)

Ok, can't get any opinions here, so this is what I found online about a clutch driven oiler. This came from "Keiths Power Equipment" 

STIHL - Many STIHL chain saws have an adjustable oiler. Ask your dealer which saws have this feature. After all, it is possible for the chain saw operator to save money on bar and chain oil if he/she can turn down the rate of flow on the oil pump. Remember to ask your dealer if the oil pump is clutch driven. This is important since a clutch driven oiler only operates when the chain saw is running above 3,000 RPM (when it is cutting wood). This means that it does not waste oil compared to an oiler that operates whenever the saw is running (even when it is sitting on the ground idling). An adjustable oiler saves oil usage and, therefore, saves you money.

I'm leaning toward the Echo CS 450 because it has this feature and only weights a little over 1 LB more than a CS 370 or CS 400.

It would be great if I could find someone who has some experience with the 450 and get their viewpoint.


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## mikefunaro (Jan 10, 2010)

You're talking about a few different things here...

Most saws at this point have oilers that do not oil at idle. This is not only environmentally friendly but also prevents what would be an annoying situation where you saw would be slobbering even when it was idling...this would make for a big mess, and would also be costly in terms of bar and chain oil, and maybe also stained clothing. I think there are very few, if any (maybe some of the old echo designs still for sale) new saws on the market that still put out full oil all the time. 

The concept of an adjustable oiler is different...this is to say that there is a screw that allows you to regulate the quantity of oil dispensed. This is particularly useful with pro saws that handle a wider variety of bar lengths. Obviously, a 20" bar in oak and a 36" bar in oak require different amounts of bar and chain oil. 

Echos themselves do not receive too much attention on this website as they are generally considered somewhat underpowered for their displacement, are expensive, and previously have been largely outdated designs. I know they have revamped some models, but to me, echo will always be a strimmer company, not a big saw company.


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## mikefunaro (Jan 10, 2010)

From what I can tell on the echo website, all of those smaller saws have clutch driven/"smart" oilers. 

The CS-450 would appear to lack a flow adjustment screw according to its description, especially since they make the distinction on other saw models. 

Again, those saws are pretty expensive for what you're getting...


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## Analyst Man (Jan 11, 2010)

I got this from the Echo site on the CS 450: “Oiling System Automatic/ Adjustable 
(Clutch-Driven)”

Also, I’m collecting comparison data in an Excel file by Brand, Displacement, Weight, Price, Fuel and Oil capacity, etc, and I don’t see where the Stihl or Husqvarna chainsaws are less expensive than an Echo when you compare apples to apples. 

I’ve seen some good reports in this site on the Echo CS 370 and CS 400, and I’ve seen other people bashing them, but the overall consensus seems to show that Echo makes a good saw today. The only thing I didn’t like was that it looks like these two models keep pumping oil even at idle and that’s why I started looking at the CS-450.


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## mountainlake (Jan 11, 2010)

A clutch driven oiler or not is no big deal unless your the type that leaves your saw sit there and idle for no reason, my Echo saws start with a little tug after warm so they get turned off . Far as value Husky and Stihl homeowner saws are the ones without value, Echo saws are built way better, have more power per cc and cost about the same as Stihl and Husky
home owner saws. Steve


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## SilverBox (Jan 11, 2010)

The 370 and 400 don't pump oil when the chain isn't spinning...


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 11, 2010)

Unless there has been an update the CS-370 does not have a clutch driven oiler. My CS-370 oils whenever the engine is running including at idle, chain not running.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 11, 2010)

Butch(OH) said:


> Unless there has been an update the CS-370 does not have a clutch driven oiler. My CS-370 oils whenever the engine is running including at idle, chain not running.



Butch,
Yes, that's what I thought I saw on some of the threads about the 370. Some were complaining about seeing a pool of oil when they set the saw down and left it running. But now that I think about it, I guess that's not a big deal since I rarely leave mine running if I'm not cutting.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 11, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> Far as value Husky and Stihl homeowner saws are the ones without value, Echo saws are built way better, have more power per cc and cost about the same as Stihl and Husky
> home owner saws. Steve



Steve, thanks for restoring my confidence in the Echo chainsaws. What I’ve been reading makes me think that these are pretty good saws in both quality and value. The oil thing Is probably petty, but I tend to overanalyze everything I buy. That CS 450 is looking pretty good from my perspective and with a 16 inch bar it should definitely serve my needs. I’d like to get some reviews from someone who owns one before I lay down the coin, but no luck so far.


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## mikefunaro (Jan 11, 2010)

The fact that they still have saws on market that oil at idle shows that they simply don't move a lot of saws and so haven't put much effort into redesigning and modernizing their equipment. No to be rude or anything, but I picked up several of the new ones at Home Depot. Not only are they expensive, but they feel kinda flimsy. The little antivibe spring (finally...spring AV for echo! hah) looked so thin and delicate.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 11, 2010)

Hmmm… Ok, I’ll bite. Which Stihl or Husqvarna saw would you recommend for someone who only drops 1 or 2 trees a year for firewood? I have a Mac 610 that I purchased new in 1982 with 60cc and a 20 inch bar that’s still good for cutting up the large stuff, but I want to replace my old Mac powermac 320. It’s a 35cc saw, so something somewhere between 35 and 45 cc is what I’m looking for. The lighter the better.


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## mountainlake (Jan 11, 2010)

If you had some 50 hour homeowner Stihl and Husky saws apart and some 300 hour Echo saw apart maybe the Echo haters could see the difference in quality, but I don't think they can see through those foggy orange glasses. The reason they can be rated for 300 hours is that they are built better. Steve


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## mikefunaro (Jan 11, 2010)

this is a quote I have always remembered from sedanman back in 2005

"This is still not the whole story. The manufacturer has to pay to have each engine certified, the 'higher' the certification category, the higher the cost. Many of the manufactures elect to save some cost here and only spend the minimum to be legal. Echo chose to spend big bucks to have all of their engines certified to the highest level. The advertise that fact and twist the info to imply that emissions certification equates to build quality or overall longevity of the machine. I had an Echo salesman tell me that the Stihls and Huskys everybody is selling are powered by 'cheap disposable engines, they're all junk', I threw him out and told him to take his Fisher Price garbage with him."

found here: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=18569


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## davidjohnson (Jan 11, 2010)

*Echo*

I would like to share a datapoint about Echo. My 75 year old dad uses an Echo he bought new back in the late 90s. The model I believe has either been superseded or discontinued but my guess is that it is in the 40-50cc range - rear handle, 16 inch bar. Besides cutting many, many cords of firewood each year, he has had a tornadoe and two ice storms that went through his property to deal with. The wood is mostly oak and cedar, some of which is in the 30"-32" class. In those 11-12 years of ownership and what I call real world, HEAVY farmer/rancher use, he has only had to replace the the starter cable, chain, bar, and sprocket a couple of times. The engine or carb has never been touched. Basically, it has performed flawlessly. 

Another friend of mine runs a tree trimming business (mostly pruning live oaks). He uses predominantly Echo and is very pleased with their reliability.

Maybe the larger Stihl saws are better than the larger Echos, but at the medium to smaller sizes I'm not so sure. 

I am currently in the market for a light weight top handle since my Stihl 009 was recently stolen out of my garage (I believe I have read on this board that a lot of you don't like that saw either, mine was great and I had it since '93) . I will be looking at both Stihl and Echo and will solicit your opinions about each in another thread.

regards


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## striperswaper (Jan 11, 2010)

do a search for the ryobi 10532 on this site, don't have one but they sound like a very good value in the size you are looking at


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## mikefunaro (Jan 11, 2010)

Get the echo if you want. Looking at home depot for example, where a cs 530 (a 50cc saw) is $469. You could have 346xp NE for that. 

For $300 my choice would be dolmar ps 420. I do not necessarily believe they are an inferior good, but they are not head and shoulders above the rest. They are expensive for what they are. They are often outdated designs.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 11, 2010)

mikefunaro said:


> I had an Echo salesman tell me that the Stihls and Huskys everybody is selling are powered by 'cheap disposable engines, they're all junk', I threw him out and told him to take his Fisher Price garbage with him.



Guys, I’m not trying to start a “my saw is better than your saw” thing here, just trying to sort through thru the facts like Consumer Reports does. They just gather owner satisfaction information and print what the polls tell them. You know, it is what it is. Some people don’t like Mcculloch chainsaws but mine both lasted 27 years. Were they made better than others? I don’t know, I just try to take care of the stuff I buy.

As for believing a salesman, I won’t even comment on that. 

The facts that I’m finding are telling me that Echo makes some really good saws and probably like everyone else they’ve made some junk too but have changed most of their saws to a better design so I’ve narrowed down my selection to the CS 370, CS 400 and the new CS 450.

I apologize for repeating this, but I started this thread to get opinions on the Echo CS 450. Does anyone have any information they can share on that saw?


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## rmh3481 (Jan 11, 2010)

Echo cs-4400 has evolved into the cs-440 and now into the cs-450 for 2010. Red color change and redesigned chain brake handle. Also looks like theyre putting an oregon chisel non safety chain on the 'P' model. 

Ive used the 4400 and 440. Both were very reliable, light weight, built well, and cut well with an 18 inch bar with .325 chain. I wouldnt hesitate to buy another one if needed.

In looking through the schematics I see the 450 uses a single ring piston where the 4400 and 440 used a two ring piston. This had something to do with air pollution emissions if I remember correctly. The closed transfer cylinder porting looks to be identical to the 440. 

Here are the drawings: http://www.echo-usa.com/pdf/documentation/CS450_C057_13_111009.pdf

Best wishes,
Bob


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## DEG305 (Jan 11, 2010)

I have Husky's (262xp) J-reds (2055,2054,630, and now a 670) Sthil (031av) and I have an Echo 440 and the saw that I chose to take with me most of the time is the Echo. It's dependable, starts easy, cuts extreamly well(modded muffler) great gas milage, and overall dropdead reliable. It has an adjustable oiler system but not the clutch driven system. Because its so easy to start I never leave it idle and it doesn't leave a mess as some have indicated. I also have a friend that has a 455 Husky and that has the clutch driven and adjustable oiler . he bought it new and has had nothing but trouble with it. Oiler worm drive gear has been replaced twice and the oil pump has been replaced once. The vast majority of the responders on this site will Bash Echo's even most have never run any of the newer ones and if it's not a Husqvarna or a Sthil or a Dolmar it's junk. Kinda like "my Ford is better than your Chevy or his Dodge"


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## miking (Jan 11, 2010)

I have a 530, 680 and a 370 and all are performing very, very well for my business, which means I run them nearly every day. If you compare those saws' specs with the 450 and find them similarly proportionate and all other features being equal, than I would wholeheartedly endorse the 450. Echo is producing top-notch saws IMO.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks to RMH3481, DEG305 and Miking. This is the kind of information that I'm looking for. 
Much appreciated!


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## mountainlake (Jan 11, 2010)

mikefunaro said:


> this is a quote I have always remembered from sedanman back in 2005
> 
> "This is still not the whole story. The manufacturer has to pay to have each engine certified, the 'higher' the certification category, the higher the cost. Many of the manufactures elect to save some cost here and only spend the minimum to be legal. Echo chose to spend big bucks to have all of their engines certified to the highest level. The advertise that fact and twist the info to imply that emissions certification equates to build quality or overall longevity of the machine. I had an Echo salesman tell me that the Stihls and Huskys everybody is selling are powered by 'cheap disposable engines, they're all junk', I threw him out and told him to take his Fisher Price garbage with him."
> 
> found here: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=18569



The truth is that Echos saws are built better than home owner Stihl and Husky saws unless you cant see, I used to be Stihl untill I used and took apart a few Echo saws and wasn't blinded by orange glasses. Steve


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## Javelin (Jan 11, 2010)

Echo seems to be on the move with there saws. The 530 is a very good performer on line easily with a ms260pro. The new 600 is a real surprise in fact I am just very pleased with it.


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## Cliff R (Jan 11, 2010)

Agreed, the newer Echo saws are very well made, and have good power to weight ratios. I've owned just about every one of their newer models. The CS-510/520's are excellent, and respond very well to a minor muffler mod.

Without exception every Echo saw I've obtained was too lean right out of the box. Plan on setting the carburetor on the first outing. 

The two saws in Echo's line-up that were the least impressive were the CS-440 and CS-800. They were both slow and not all that powerful. The little CS-370's are very good saws, as is the CS-400, but they are not high rpm engines, more mid-range. The CS-510/520's are very strong performers, and love to rev and cut at high rpm's.

Having no experience with the CS-450, I can't tell you how it will perform. It appears to be more of a "Pro" type saw than the CS-440. Hopefully it will be designed/ported in a similiar fashion as the CS-510/520's.....Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 12, 2010)

More helpful information, and again I want to thank you guys.

Someone mentioned that clutch driven oilers use a worm drive system. I understand the principle behind worm drives like the one found on my worm-drive Skillsaw (circular saw) and assume that this is the same design. Are there any pros or cons to this as an oiling system in a chain saw? Actually anything will be an improvement over the old push to oil systems that I’m used to on my old McCulloch’s. What’ your take on a constant oiler vs a clutch driven oiler?

Also, is there a way to find out if the CS 450 is ported like the 510/520? (thanks for that thought Cliff)


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## Cliff R (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know of anyone who's checked one out that close?

I was really surprised at how much more power a CS-510 has than a CS-440, having owned both of those saws. 

I read on a thread here someplace that the porting in the CS-510 jug has much larger transfers than the CS-440, but I've never taken any of these saws down to look at them that close.

I can tell you for certain, the CS-510 is a strong running saw at every level, and has proven to be dead solid reliable now for quite a few years. I use mine frequently, as it's pretty fast cutting for 50cc and we cut a lot of tops left over from logging operations. It is also very fuel efficient.

The CS-450 is a nice design, and I'm glad to see Echo continuing to step up with better models. One would hope that they gave it a high performance engine to go with the "pro" features.....Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 12, 2010)

I created an account with Echo this morning and asked the support team if the 450 is ported like the 510 and 520, and what the difference is between a CS-450 and a CS -450P. I’ll post the answers in this thread when they reply.

I don’t see the 510 or 520 offered by Echo anymore and assume the 530 replaces these. Not sure I need 50cc for lighter work, although I see that the weight is the same for the 450 and 530. Decisions decisions.


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## Cliff R (Jan 12, 2010)

Never ran a 530 to date. I suspect it's similiar in performance to the 510's. The earlier models didn't have CAT mufflers and the porting wasn't designed to be as emission friendly. My contact at Echo told me they upped the cc's to keep the power on par as the emission standards kept getting tighter. I suspect it's this way with many modern saws, and why we are starting to see a lot of Stratto-charged engines showing up from the major manufacturers. They are trying to keep us happy with high power to weight ratios, and the EPA happy with cleaner emissions.....then we dig out all the catylist and open up the mufflers!......Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 12, 2010)

I work in Quality at Navistar and I'm all too familiar with the problems created for engine manufactures by the EPA. Harley Davidson is another good example of engines that come set too lean from the factory. I always wonder how much longer we’ll see our beloved air cooled V-twin engines able to meet EPA standards.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 12, 2010)

Here’s what Echo says:
"Thank you for your e-mail to ECHO Incorporated. The CS-450 is ported like the CS-400 with the Power Boost Vortex engine. The CS-450P has a different bar and chain then the CS-450. The CS-450P uses a bar with a removable sprocket and a chain that is not low kick back."

So back to some questions.
1) Is the porting on a CS-400 the same as a CS-510/520?
2) What’s the advantage of a removable sprocket, and why would I need or want that option?
3) When is a NON low kick back chain desired over a low kickback chain?


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 12, 2010)

Cliff R said:


> Agreed, the newer Echo saws are very well made, and have good power to weight ratios. I've owned just about every one of their newer models. The CS-510/520's are excellent, and respond very well to a minor muffler mod.
> 
> Without exception every Echo saw I've obtained was too lean right out of the box. Plan on setting the carburetor on the first outing.
> 
> ...



Was at an Echo service meeting today, they really stressed that dealers MUST tune every unit that goes out, and tell the customer to return within 30 days for a free check up (and Echo will pay the dealer).




Analyst Man said:


> Here’s what Echo says:
> "Thank you for your e-mail to ECHO Incorporated. The CS-450 is ported like the CS-400 with the Power Boost Vortex engine. The CS-450P has a different bar and chain then the CS-450. The CS-450P uses a bar with a removable sprocket and a chain that is not low kick back."
> 
> So back to some questions.
> ...



I don't know about the porting, but here's answers to #2 & #3:
The "removable sprocket" they're talking about is a two-piece rim sprocket system. It's an outboard sprocket, which means that the rim (the small replaceable part the drives the chain) is easily accessible without removing the clutch. It's a feature more commonly found on pro saws than on homeowner saws, because it's easier to replace the sprocket and cheaper in the long run.

The only time you would want a low kickback chain IMO is if you are not confident or inexperienced with a chainsaw. A low kickback chain is designed to REDUCE kickback (NOT eliminate). Kickback is when the tip of the bar comes in contact with a solid object and the chain catches and violently propels the tip of the bar away from the object. However, low kickback chain also significantly reduces cutting speed and performance, (some types of low kickback chain is more performance impeding than other types).


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## cjrenegade82 (Jan 12, 2010)

IMO I would not even consider the 450 unless you really like the clutch driven oiler, which is nice but not necessary. The 530 is more saw with no more weight. Dido for 370 vs 400. If you are going to lug the extra weight why not have the extra power to show for it. I would go for the 530


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## mountainlake (Jan 13, 2010)

The porting is quite a bit different between the 520 and Cs400, The 520 is normal and nice sized, the 400 is quite a bit smaller and a little slanted, 4 ports with one bigger one and one smaller one on each side. The exhaust port also comes out at a slant. Must be too do with the Vortex design. Steve


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## Cliff R (Jan 13, 2010)

I noticed the "tear drop" shape of the exhaust port when I muffler modded my CS-370's. My friend at Echo tells me that the porting of the "Vortec/Boost" engines is a step Echo took to clean up emissions and produce an emission friendly engine with broad power and good torque for the cc's.

Can't comment on the emissions part, other than these saws are very fuel efficient. I can tell you that they do not make great top end power, and do not like to rev like my Husqvarna saws. This actually disappointed me some when I first placed them in service. I stuck with the CS-370 and started doing most of my limbing with it. As I'd work my way up to the larger limbs/logs, it just keeps "grunting" away and maintains good chain speed in the cut, even with the bar buried.

I took down 5 large Maple trees a few weeks back, and limbed them with one of my CS-370's. It made it through 4 of the trees and half way through the 5th one before requiring fuel. I didn't time the work, but I kept thinking it would run out of fuel at any second when I was about half way through the project. I know it ran over 30 minutes being worked pretty hard the entire time.

As far as the CS-450 goes, it looks like an effort to produce a more "Pro" variety of this design. Considering the price, it's knocking on the door of some other well proven designs. There is also very little real world experience with them, so you may just have to take the plunge and let us all know how it works out?.....Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 13, 2010)

I’m leaning toward the CS-450, but I keep thinking about my old top handle Mac 320. I didn’t realize I was getting a “top” handle when I bought it new (first saw) back around 1982 but I always liked how balanced and easy it was to use. One of your comments about safety made me think I might be better with a rear handle but I never had any issues or close calls. Was Its design different than the top handles I see today?

I’m only asking because that CS-360T is a few pounds lighter than the 370 or 450, and I’m going to miss how balanced my Mac was. Are the new top handle saws harder to handle than my old Mac 320? Whatever I buy will be replacing that saw.


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## Cliff R (Jan 13, 2010)

I have two working 320's here, and two for parts. They are decent saws, and have good power for the cc's. Being an old design, they are not very fuel effcient, so I canned them once I got my CS-360T. The CS-360T has more power and uses half the fuel to get the same amount of work done. I still like the old Mac's, and my best friend uses one of them for most of his firewood cutting. 

You will find the CS-360T smoother and a LOT quieter than the old Mac, even after a muffler mod mine is still half as loud as my 320's.....Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 13, 2010)

You mentioned something about top handle saws being more dangerous. Does the Echo 360T handle like the Mac 320 or are they about the same? As I said, I never had any safety issues with the Mac, but then again, I didn’t know what I was doing or what to expect so I always treated the thing with a lot of respect.


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## Cliff R (Jan 13, 2010)

Same basic design. Not having a rear handle gives up a lot of leverage over the saw by the operator. 

If you are going to cut one handed, and higher than your head, they are a LOT safer than a rear handle saw.....Cliff


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## mark360T (Jan 13, 2010)

i own the echo 360T is an awesome saw, but lacks leverage. just take off the spark arrestor and you will be good to go. I running a 12in. carlton forest champ bar and a carlton non safety semi-chisel lo pro chain. and it cuts very good. i like the tooless air filter cover, and is good with very little vibration.

i went to my local echo dealer to look at their new saws they got in ank i looked at the echo 450.with the echo 450 i know that it features side access chain tensioner, tooless air filter cover, and automotive style air filter. features rim sprocket, dual post chainbrake, av mounts, bucking spikes, and standard 18in. 325. bar and oregon chain. and my favorite the power boost vortex engine. :biggrinbounce2:


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## Analyst Man (Jan 13, 2010)

I have no intention of cutting one handed over my head, that sounds like a good way to end up one handed. Good information though as I really wanted something similar to my Mac 320 and the CS-360 seems to fit the bill. Thanks for answering so many questions.

Echo answered some of my questions too. Here’s their reply:



> The porting on the CS-510 and CS-520 is different then the CS-450 and CS-400. The CS-450 uses a newer engine designed that will give more power from a smaller displacement.
> 
> The Power Boost Vortex™ cylinder plating is a special blend of metals that provides a super smooth low friction surface with the ability to retain oil on the cylinder walls better than any cylinder treatment in the market today. This surface is about 400 times smoother than a chrome plated cylinder and ECHO currently is the only manufacture that has the ability to produce this cylinder treatment.
> 
> ...


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## Analyst Man (Jan 13, 2010)

mark360T said:


> i own the echo 360T is an awesome saw, but lacks leverage. just take off the spark arrestor and you will be good to go. I running a 12in. carlton forest champ bar and a carlton non safety semi-chisel lo pro chain. and it cuts very good. i like the tooless air filter cover, and is good with very little vibration.
> 
> i went to my local echo dealer to look at their new saws they got in ank i looked at the echo 450.with the echo 450 i know that it features side access chain tensioner, tooless air filter cover, and automotive style air filter. features rim sprocket, dual post chainbrake, av mounts, bucking spikes, and standard 18in. 325. bar and oregon chain. and my favorite the power boost vortex engine. :biggrinbounce2:



Hey Mark360T, you posted like just before me and I didn’t see your comments. From what I’m gathering I have to agree. Looks like Echo has put together a winner with that Power Boost Vortex engine design. I see lots of favorable comments on the CS-360 and CS-370 and all they need is some minor tuning to get the best from them. I appreciate all this help since I haven’t bought a chainsaw in 28 years.


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## mark360T (Jan 13, 2010)

the only donw side to the echo 360T is that it cost me with tax $316.47
the echo 330T woul cost $30-40 dollars cheaper, but i bought my 360T at the dealer so i got the 5 year warranty
my favorite part about my 360T is that it is a top handle and makes a great limbing saw


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## Analyst Man (Jan 13, 2010)

Wisesales.com shows the CS-360 for $269.99. Fortunatly they're only about a half an hour from my house.

http://www.wisesales.com/echo_chainsaws.html


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## mark360T (Jan 13, 2010)

well if i were you i would go for the echo 360T


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## Analyst Man (Jan 13, 2010)

*CS-360T is the winner*

Now that I’ve got the answers to all my questions and sorted through them, it looks like the CS-360T is the winner. Hopefully I can get out to the dealer this weekend. Much thanks to everyone for all the input.


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## mark360T (Jan 13, 2010)

if you get the 360T make sure you throw the safety chain it comes with and put a real chain on it


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## MN Ripper (Jan 13, 2010)

If your Mac 320 was anything like my fathers McCullough Super 16 top handle you will love the 360T. My hands get numb just thinking about that old saw. My echo 330t starts on one pull when its hot, don't ever remember the ornery super 16 doing that often. 

I like limbing with it- maneuverable, light and like Cliff said already you keep thinking it should run out of gas but it just keeps cutting. I followed Cliff's post from a while back about the muffler mod to his 360t and did it to my 330t. Wow I really liked the saw after doing that. But I know welding or brazing is not what everyone likes to do, but it is so worth it for the end result.


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## Cliff R (Jan 14, 2010)

"Due to the design of the cylinder surface on the Power Boost Vortex™ , the piston ring and the piston sealing surface is now 5-6 times more effective than the sealing surface of rings made of cast iron. The Power Boost Vortex™ engine will last longer, due to less friction, less heat and better cylinder wall lubrication."

They also use extremely tight piston to liner clearance(s). The trump card here is that you MUST make sure they "H" speed screw is providing plenty of fuel or there is a significant risk of piston and/or cylinder wall damage.

Without exception, every single Echo in my line-up has required quite a bit of fuel to be added, as all of them were quite lean right out of the box.

The CS-360T also uses a rev limiting module, making it very difficult to correctly tune with the "H" speed screw. I would recomend backing it out about 1.5 to 2 turns from stock, then slowly going lean with it till it makes the best power in the cut. The rev limiter comes on around 14,500rpm's, and sounds just like you've got the carb set correctly.

+1 on the muffler mod, it is a BIG wake up call for this saw.....Cliff


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## mountainlake (Jan 14, 2010)

Also with those tight clearances make sure too let these saws warm up a little, the last CS400 I got off Ebay looked like it siezed from not letting it warm up . It was set lean as usual but no scoring by the exhaust port, in snowmobile it looked like a 4 corner sieze caused by not letting them warm up. The piston expands faster than the cylinder, with tight clearance uit gets a little too tight if not warmed up good. Steve


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## Analyst Man (Jan 14, 2010)

Cliff R said:


> "The CS-360T also uses a rev limiting module, making it very difficult to correctly tune with the "H" speed screw. I would recomend backing it out about 1.5 to 2 turns from stock, then slowly going lean with it till it makes the best power in the cut. The rev limiter comes on around 14,500rpm's, and sounds just like you've got the carb set correctly.
> 
> +1 on the muffler mod, it is a BIG wake up call for this saw.....Cliff



That rev limiter was the only thing making me second guess the 360T, and considering the CS-370 instead, but I’m not expecting too many problems. It looks like most of the information I need to modify the 360T is already posted. You guys have been very helpful so thanks again!

Funny thing happened yesterday. My Mac 320T is sitting just inside my garage so I thought I’d give it a couple of pulls and sure enough It fired right up, revved to the max once warm and then settled down to a nice idle. But it’s not fooling me, I know what will happen if I start using it. Is it worth the trouble to try selling it on eBay for parts? I just put a new chain on it December 27th and cut with it for about ½ hour and then it wouldnt idle anymore. Probably sucking air somewhere after it warms up.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 14, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> Also with those tight clearances make sure too let these saws warm up a little, the last CS400 I got off Ebay looked like it siezed from not letting it warm up . It was set lean as usual but no scoring by the exhaust port, in snowmobile it looked like a 4 corner sieze caused by not letting them warm up. The piston expands faster than the cylinder, with tight clearance uit gets a little too tight if not warmed up good. Steve



Good point Steve. I intend on opening the H screw before I even start the thing. Is that muffler mod an absolute necessity though? I’m not a pro, so if I get through a 10 inch limb in 10 seconds instead of 7 it’s not going to make much difference. Of course I don’t want it sputtering or slowing down a lot either.


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## mountainlake (Jan 14, 2010)

Analyst Man said:


> Good point Steve. I intend on opening the H screw before I even start the thing. Is that muffler mod an absolute necessity though? I’m not a pro, so if I get through a 10 inch limb in 10 seconds instead of 7 it’s not going to make much difference. Of course I don’t want it sputtering or slowing down a lot either.




Most important is giving them more fuel, the CS370 has a rev limiting coil also, mine sounded rich with the factory setting but was way lean . Tune it like Cliff says and you'll be fine. Steve


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## Cliff R (Jan 14, 2010)

"Probably sucking air somewhere after it warms up." 

I gave up on all of my 320's for the same reason, they just will NOT stay running consistantly once warmed up. They are also problematic to start, some days 1-2 pulls, other days 30-40, and nothing is wrong with them anywhere that I can find. I even rebuild the C-1 carbs and installed new fuel lines and filters, etc, no improvment.

The little Echo CS-360T is always 1-2 pulls and it's running, and dead solid reliable using half the fuel to do the same work as the old Mac's.......Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 14, 2010)

Cliff R said:


> "I gave up on all of my 320's for the same reason, they just will NOT stay running consistantly once warmed up. They are also problematic to start, some days 1-2 pulls, other days 30-40, and nothing is wrong with them anywhere that I can find. I even rebuild the C-1 carbs and installed new fuel lines and filters, etc, no improvment.
> 
> The little Echo CS-360T is always 1-2 pulls and it's running, and dead solid reliable using half the fuel to do the same work as the old Mac's.......Cliff



You just described my 320, can't complain though, that Mac lasted almost 30 years, but I'm done. Looks like its so long Mac 320, hello Ehco CS-360. 

BTW, what do you guys recommend for bar length on the CS-360?


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## Analyst Man (Jan 15, 2010)

*Bar and Chain?*

Rephrasing my last question, which bar AND chain would you recommend for the CS-360T. I’m going to pick up the saw this evening.


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## Cliff R (Jan 15, 2010)

I've ran up to a 16" bar on mine, currently running a 12" set up from Bailey's, they had a great deal on them a while back.

Really doesn't matter, it pulls all of them with plenty of authority. If you are just limbing with it, the 12" is fine. Overall, the 14" is probably the best all around choice.....Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 15, 2010)

What about chain? Someone mentioned that the stock chain isn't that good.


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## Cliff R (Jan 15, 2010)

The stock 3/8 LP's are fine, mine did not have safety features on it like the larger Echo saws we've obtained that used .325" chains.....Cliff


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## Analyst Man (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks, I'm picking the saw up this evening.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 15, 2010)

*Bought the CS-360T*

Ok, I’m the proud owner of a brand new Echo CS-360T. $296.99 out the door including tax at Wisesales.com. Echo must have shaved a few ounces off the power head because the manual says it weighs just 7.9 lbs instead of the 8.1 that they advertise online. Anyway, thanks to all for your suggestions and advice.


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## mark360T (Jan 16, 2010)

congrats on the new saw. I hope you like it, its a power house


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## Analyst Man (Jan 18, 2010)

mark360T said:


> congrats on the new saw. I hope you like it, its a power house



Thanks. The wife thinks I'm nuts...."why are you taking it apart, you just got it". 

Anyway, I'm sure this will be one fine saw after the mods. Cliff R gave some very helpful suggestions on how to modify these new Echos's.

I just found out what the green dots and gold stars are for on Friday. Looks like I can only give out 4 every 24 hours, so it's taking me a few days to thank everyone.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 18, 2010)

Analyst Man said:


> Hmmm… Ok, I’ll bite. Which Stihl or Husqvarna saw would you recommend for someone who only drops 1 or 2 trees a year for firewood? I have a Mac 610 that I purchased new in 1982 with 60cc and a 20 inch bar that’s still good for cutting up the large stuff, but I want to replace my old Mac powermac 320. It’s a 35cc saw, so something somewhere between 35 and 45 cc is what I’m looking for. The lighter the better.



There are many excellent options. I will list just a few that come into my mind in no special order. All have recieved good to excellent reports here. For further info you will have to use the search function.

Ryobi (I forgot the model name)
Dolmar 420
Husqvarna 435/440
Stihl 211
Solo 643

But I am equally sure that the Echo will serve you wonderful! Echo has a very good reputation and I believe a 5 year warranty for the homeowner. For your type of cutting I would recomend a 40cc+-5cc type of saw. 

I use a Dolmar/Makita 5001 (49cc/3.9hp) and a Stihl 180(32cc/2hp) and am equally happy and not focused on any brand name.

Good luck and don't forget PPE (personal protection equipment: chaps, eye&ear protection etc.)

7

Ups looks like I am to late.


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## Analyst Man (Jan 18, 2010)

7sleeper said:


> There are many excellent options. I will list just a few that come into my mind in no special order. All have recieved good to excellent reports here. For further info you will have to use the search function.
> 
> Ryobi (I forgot the model name)
> Dolmar 420
> ...



Too late, but still good safety advice.
Thanks.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 18, 2010)

Analyst Man said:


> Too late, but still good safety advice.
> Thanks.



Your welcome and congratulation to your new saw. 

Oh and I forgot: *Forum rules : without pics it never happened!*




7


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## Analyst Man (Jan 19, 2010)

7sleeper said:


> Your welcome and congratulation to your new saw.
> 
> Oh and I forgot: *Forum rules : without pics it never happened!*



Being new, i'm not sure I understand that rule. What does it mean???


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## FireFighter254 (Nov 3, 2014)

I own the CS-450 as well. Never a problem, always a work horse til now, when I need it most. First use this season. Started to cut up an oak that fell next to the house and oiler has stopped working. I've checked the filter, blew the line with compressed air but to no avail, still no oil. Has my oiler taken a dump? Anything I can try...taking it off, etc?


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## 1Alpha1 (Nov 3, 2014)

Seems as of late with all the postings, it doesn't matter what the brand or model is, chainsaw oilers ain't worth a damn.

They either leak when not running, they don't oil enough, they oil too much, or they don't oil at all.


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## WSE (Nov 3, 2014)

FireFighter254 said:


> I own the CS-450 as well. Never a problem, always a work horse til now, when I need it most. First use this season. Started to cut up an oak that fell next to the house and oiler has stopped working. I've checked the filter, blew the line with compressed air but to no avail, still no oil. Has my oiler taken a dump? Anything I can try...taking it off, etc?


What kind of bar oil are you running? I have replaced a few of these. However in every case the customer was running cheap crap bar oil. You must use good oil on these new saws or the oil pumps will fail. In any event if the saw is under 5 years old and you have a good dealer it should be warrantied.


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## 1Alpha1 (Nov 3, 2014)

WSE said:


> What kind of bar oil are you running? I have replaced a few of these. However in every case the customer was running cheap crap bar oil. *You must use good oil on these new saws or the oil pumps will fail*. In any event if the saw is under 5 years old and you have a good dealer it should be warrantied.




How does the oil pump know the difference between cheap crap bar oil and good-quality bar oil?

The only way I can tell, is by the price. opcorn: I've yet to devise a way to tell the actual difference in quality though.


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## WSE (Nov 3, 2014)

Cheap farm & fleet oil etc. is nothing but 30w oil. Way too heavy for today's gear driven pumps. Sure the old pulse pumps could probly pump honey. Modern pumps don't like it. I've seen the evidence. Guys that come in and regularly buy oil from me NEVER come in with oil pump issues regardless of the saw brand.


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## 1Alpha1 (Nov 3, 2014)

WSE said:


> Cheap farm & fleet oil etc. is nothing but 30w oil. Way too heavy for today's gear driven pumps. Sure the old pulse pumps could probly pump honey. Modern pumps don't like it. I've seen the evidence. Guys that come in and regularly buy oil from me NEVER come in with oil pump issues regardless of the saw brand.




So it's basically about oil weight? What is the brand / weight that you sell that never poses any problems?


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## WSE (Nov 3, 2014)

The weight is crucial especially in the winter and also detergents that help keep your pump healthy. I am not positive on the weight of the husky and echo oils I carry off the top of my head. Obviously the winter blends are lighter. If you took a bottle of cheapo oil and poured it right next to a bottle of good oil you can immediately see the difference in how much better the good stuff flows out of the bottle even.


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## 1Alpha1 (Nov 3, 2014)

WSE said:


> The weight is crucial especially in the winter and also detergents that help keep your pump healthy. I am not positive on the weight of the husky and echo oils I carry off the top of my head. Obviously the winter blends are lighter. If you took a bottle of cheapo oil and poured it right next to a bottle of good oil you can immediately see the difference in how much better the good stuff flows out of the bottle even.




I have about 9 or 10 gallons left of Homelite Premium bar & chain oil that I bought on close-out from Walmart several years ago. At the time, I bought all they had in stock, and that was about 23 gallons if I recall correctly.

I just looked at one of the jugs and it doesn't mention weight, or type of season use. It has tack additives in it, and I've never had any problems or issues with it. I don't cut in winter, so I don't have any thick oil issues.

Just trying to figure out if it's just cheap crap bar & chain oil, or if it's some of the good stuff.


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## WSE (Nov 3, 2014)

If it's been good to your bars,chains, and pumps it's probably decent oil. Worst stuff I see comes from farm & fleet. Burns up bars cuz the pumps just can't pump it. Then eventually takes out the pump. Especially in the winter.


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## 1Alpha1 (Nov 3, 2014)

WSE said:


> If it's been good to your bars,chains, and pumps it's probably decent oil. Worst stuff I see comes from farm & fleet. Burns up bars cuz the pumps just can't pump it. Then eventually takes out the pump. Especially in the winter.




Thanks for the information. It's appreciated.


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