# What kind of wedge is used here?



## DeanBrown3D (Feb 23, 2006)

Another one from Dent's book is falling against the lean, using a pair of _steel _wedges to ram in as the back cut progresses, to straighten up the tree and allow it to fall in the opposite direction. My question is what kind of wedges are these and where can I get them? Or is he talking about simple steel splitting wedges?

Cheers

Dean


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## Onelick (Feb 23, 2006)

I just use K&H "red head" wedges. Never steel wedges, that's stupid.


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## DeanBrown3D (Feb 23, 2006)

I hope you're not calling Dent stupid.

I've had times when its impossible to drive in a plastic wedge. Seems like a steelie and a sledge hammer would be better.


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## clearance (Feb 23, 2006)

Hi Dean, interesting, steel wedges are totally prohibited for use here (B.C. home of the big trees) because of contact danger with chainsaws. Back in the old days when there were two man falling teams they used sledgehammers and 14" long slim steel wedges. Steel wedges for splitting firewood are have way to steep of an angle, they will be spit out. I bought some magnesium? wedges at a garage sale and used them to fall some birch leaners, I just beat the snot out of them with my 41/2lb. axe, trees went over. Pounding the snot out of wedges on other kinds of trees with questionable holding wood is just asking for the holding wood to snap and the tree to come over backwards. Falling against thier lean callls for common sense, you cannot get to carried away, sometimes even good falllers have to leave money trees cause its just not going to happen. In this case run up the tree and hang a rope. If you are determined to use steel wedges you will probably have to get some made, not hard to do by a shop. Slim wedges are easier to drive, copy a plastic falling, not bucking wedge.


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## ShoerFast (Feb 23, 2006)

Dean

We used steel weadges in the past,(before plastic),,, but my Dad did have one slung out of the cut once,,,, caught his shin real good!

To keep them from the chain, just make another cut under the back cut, about 3/4 of an inch or so, and drive your steel in there as the wood closes the slot so the chain cant get to the steel,,,, Plastic would be better, and stackable ones would get you the same lift.

I like having a pail full of oak weadges, just cut them from standing dead scrub oak and finish them on a belt sander,,,,, make them any thickness you want and thay sound cool.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/4172849182878216/fellingmpeg/


I would like to get a copy of Dents book, if anyone had one for sale?

Kevin


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## DeanBrown3D (Feb 23, 2006)

Kevin, clearance

Thanks for the help. Those are some neat ideas. Not sure what the difference is between a bucking wedge and a falling wedge, apart from size though. Is the angle different?

I've just seen steel-cored plastic wedges in Baileys, maybe they are worth a look.

Oh Kevin - Baileys also sells Dent's book. I'm still using mine


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 23, 2006)

clearance said:


> Hi Dean, interesting, steel wedges are totally prohibited for use here (B.C. home of the big trees) because of contact danger with chainsaws. Back in the old days when there were two man falling teams they used sledgehammers and 14" long slim steel wedges. Steel wedges for splitting firewood are have way to steep of an angle, they will be spit out. I bought some magnesium? wedges at a garage sale and used them to fall some birch leaners, I just beat the snot out of them with my 41/2lb. axe, trees went over. Pounding the snot out of wedges on other kinds of trees with questionable holding wood is just asking for the holding wood to snap and the tree to come over backwards. Falling against thier lean callls for common sense, you cannot get to carried away, sometimes even good falllers have to leave money trees cause its just not going to happen. In this case run up the tree and hang a rope. If you are determined to use steel wedges you will probably have to get some made, not hard to do by a shop. Slim wedges are easier to drive, copy a plastic falling, not bucking wedge.



I was in the market for some new steel splitting wedges last summer. Couldn't find any in my local shop. Stihl shop in Lewiston Id had what they called splitting wedges but they were very slim taper - more like a falling wedge (maybe a bit steeper). Since I already had 2 of them I passed.

Harry K


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## redprospector (Feb 23, 2006)

Kevin,
Bailey's has the book.

Dean,
Wedges are all about the same thickness at the head (give or take a little). It is the leingth of the wedge that determines the degree of angle.

Remember, Dent's book wasn't written recently. I first read it sometime in the mid 80's, and the book I read wasn't a new one. So a lot of stuff used in the book is no longer available. The book has some good info, but isn't written in stone. 

Andy


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## Lumberjacked (Feb 23, 2006)

I know Baileys has those yellow wedges with the groves in them for stability when stacking. I have never used them so cant really say "ya" or "na" but you could give them a try.


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## clearance (Feb 23, 2006)

Yes, you can stack wedges, falling wedges only, be real carefull doing this, sometimes they spit out, like a bullet. Again, within reason. Stacking increases the angle, so this is why they are more likely to spit than a single wedge. It is also a good idea to put two wedges close to the saw (holding wood) so that if the wedges you are lifting the tree with spit out, the saw wont get pinched and you can start again. If the saw gets pinched because you misjudged the lean and didn't set a wedge take your axe and cut down to the backcut from above untill there is room to stick in a wedge.


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## Kate Butler (Feb 23, 2006)

*wedges*

I had a situation recently where I couldn't get a plastic wedge in and used a hand axe (driven in by sledge) as a wedge to open it up enough to get the plastic ones in.


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## mike385 (Feb 23, 2006)

Everyone that uses wedges needs to try those hard wedges of baileys. That is all that I use now. They are just like regular wedges but they have a steel insert on the driving face. You can really lift and move alot of weight and lean. They are a little more pricey but I def. won't buy anything else.

Mike


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## Newfie (Feb 23, 2006)

The hard heads are awesome, ain't they?


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## mike385 (Feb 23, 2006)

I used to use any wedge before, with those you get steel driving power without the chain damage lol. I haved use steel wedges also. Not really the best because of the steep taper that they have, they don't drive very well, and they take alot of power to hit them. Newfie, have had a really heavy tree, and when you hit the wedge, you bust it in half? I have with a few trees, I don't know if the impact and the fact that the tree doesn't move, but I broke a new wedge like that and the wedge was only sticking out about an inch.

mike


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## Newfie (Feb 23, 2006)

I 've never busted one in half. They usually come shooting out of the back cut first. Netree taught me to be a little more patient when wedging back over and go slow and allow the top to catch up. A lot less pounding and bashing that way. But sometimes you just have to wail the b!tch!


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## mike385 (Feb 23, 2006)

You are right with the slow approach. There is a rhythmn to it, and every tree has a different one. I noticed that awhile ago. When I broke those wedges, I wasn't pounding like hell, I was just hitting it and one time it didn't move and it just broke. I noticed if you go like hell, that is when you might be eating a wedge.lol.


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## geofore (Feb 24, 2006)

*wedges*



Kate Butler said:


> I had a situation recently where I couldn't get a plastic wedge in and used a hand axe (driven in by sledge) as a wedge to open it up enough to get the plastic ones in.



That is why you should have a backup saw. Plunge cut in the closed kerf to start a wedge. You are taking a big risk pounding on an axe as they are not designed to be used as a wedge. Wrong temper of the metal in the axe to be used as a wedge.


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## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Kate, do what I said earlier when your saw gets pinched because you didn't put in a wedge. Take your axe and cut down onto the backcut, where you want to put your wedge, a gap will be made and you can get it started. Its always good to have another saw, just don't need it to do this. Have to have an axe anyways when you are falling, your spare saw might be in the truck, why walk for it.


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## mike385 (Feb 24, 2006)

I open face and wedge. I never cut in from the back of the cut. I used to do that then went to game of logging since then I do it sorren's way. I like the safety.


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## Kate Butler (Feb 24, 2006)

*wedges*

Clearance & Geofore, there was a backup saw - the problem was that the wind had picked up and was threatening to put the tree on a building in seconds. There was no time to get the other saw. It was a down & dirty "fix", but it worked.


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## smokechase II (Feb 25, 2006)

*steel wedges*

Clearance:
I thought the primary reason metal wedges were outlawed was mostly because of how steel ones would have bits of metal shoot off and often do eye damage. Of course cutting with a saw is part of it too.
There was an account on this site where ART from California had a hunk of steel in his brow from 52 years ago.
I do use magnesium ones on occasion, with safety glasses of course, wedge heads in good condition, good green hinge wood. I love the way they lift.
Bailey’s disclaimer for their steel head wedges is, “Be sure you are wearing safety glasses when driving these wedges.”
So, has anybody had the newer steel headed plastic ones or the full magnesium wedges have any metal fragments fly off? 
(Madsen's sells magnesium wedges and has for years. But they do not carry the steel headed ones.)

Onelick: I've seen your posted photos where you use a plastic wedge right next to and parallel to the hinge. Forgive me, but I think that is less than intelligent compared to wedging from or near the rear.

A simple way of mitigating the chainsaw part of this is practicing good work habits like not cutting any wedge, ever. Consider other cutting techniques like a face bore slightly off-set from your back-cut etc.


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## clearance (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, I fell with the mag. wedges, beat them like a redheaded stepchild with my Arvika axe. Little chunks came off them, shiny there for a bit.


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## tek9tim (Feb 25, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Onelick: I've seen your posted photos where you use a plastic wedge right next to and parallel to the hinge. Forgive me, but I think that is less than intelligent compared to wedging from or near the rear.




Placing a wedge near & parallel to the holding wood does give you less mechanical advantage than placing one in the rear. I usually use wedges in this fashion when I'm in for the long haul of wedging over a tree, but more as chocks to keep the tree where I've got it rather than for lift. This allows you to pull one of your lifting wedges out of the back to add & stack, rearrange, or whatever you need to do.

The number one mistake I see people making when wedging snags is poor rythm. Pound the wedge, watch the top sway forward, back, and as it sways forward again, smack the wedge, then repeat. This does 2 things, 1 it keeps the top from breaking out by making the bottom of the trunk move forward at the same time as the top is moving forward. Second, it makes for less work. As the tree is swaying forward, it is leaning off of your wedge, thus making it easier to drive. The first one isn't quite as important in green trees, but the amount of work you can save yourself is well worth paying attention.


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## treeman82 (Feb 25, 2006)

I've got 2 steel wedges that I use once in a blue moon. If I am falling large diameter trees, then I will break out my large steel wedge once I have the saw in a ways. Sometimes I will also use it for ALAP'ing a large stump or splitting logs. Besides that, I use plastic.


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## John Ellison (Feb 25, 2006)

The thing about pounding on metal wedges is if its vertical as in splitting firewood you're usually alright and the bystanders have to watch out. Horizontal as in driving a tree over and the shrapnel will go down or right at you.
Steel wedges will lift more but they are more trouble than plastic.
The saying in the woods if you were cutting wire rope {old axe head and sledge} or driving railroad spikes or staples in a stump was... " If you want to see dont look". Of course years ago nobody wore eye protection and you learned to pull your tin hat down low and dip your head right before impact.


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## smokechase II (Feb 25, 2006)

*wedges near hinge*

Tek9;
You're right on the wedge thing, I do use wedges by the hinge on occasion. But not as a GOL type of event to get a tree over with a regimented type of back-cut. Just tapped in snug and no more as an insurance policy, not beating them or myself.
I concur on the timing of the wedge driving. It is also another way to get people to look up.
(Your first cutting should be accompanied by looking up that instant. Your first and perhaps all of your wedge slaps {on some trees} should be done with that quick glance up. Theory; any vibration could be the sponsor of something coming loose).
This type of philosophy is more tailored to those who deal with trees/snags on fires. Sort of a healthy paranoia.


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## pbtree (Feb 26, 2006)

Newfie said:


> The hard heads are awesome, ain't they?



They certainly are!


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 26, 2006)

clearance said:


> Yes, you can stack wedges, falling wedges only, be real carefull doing this, sometimes they spit out, like a bullet. Again, within reason. Stacking increases the angle, so this is why they are more likely to spit than a single wedge. It is also a good idea to put two wedges close to the saw (holding wood) so that if the wedges you are lifting the tree with spit out, the saw wont get pinched and you can start again. If the saw gets pinched because you misjudged the lean and didn't set a wedge take your axe and cut down to the backcut from above untill there is room to stick in a wedge.


If your wedges are slipping take a handful of dirt and stick it in between the two wedges when you stack them. Also, when driving wedges on a heavy leaner drive two wedges side by side. Hit one and then hit the other. You will be amazed on how much easier it is. I always pack at least on extra wedge in my pack. That way if I need too I can get it and while I have at least one buried I can get the other free and stack. That extra lift at that point will more than likley get the tree over. I never bury both of my wedges for that reason. Just in case I need to get one free. As far a mag. wedges I use the mag driver for beating purposes only. Though they do drive good they make for better beaters. Besides at $18 a pop I would rather not ruin one. I go through about 3 a year. I pack one in my wedge pouch along with two Madsen's Blaze Orange 12"s and never have any issues. Of course if it is that obvious I will just jack it over.


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## clearance (Feb 26, 2006)

TreeS, thanks a lot for the tip about dirt between stacked wedges.


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 26, 2006)

clearance said:


> TreeS, thanks a lot for the tip about dirt between stacked wedges.


Anytime:greenchainsaw:


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## mike385 (Feb 26, 2006)

one thing that I have started to do when stacking is, put the wedges at a 90degree angle to each other. It seems to work for me and they don't want to slip as easily as when in the same plane.


I will have to try that dirt thing though, so simple.


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## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2006)

*wedge stuff*

Mike:
I think the reason the angled stacking works better is there is less friction because of reduced surface contact between wedges and also possibly some additional reduced friction where the wedges aren't touching each other and because of that they give a little more at those spots.
Increased friction may be the reason tree sling'rs dirt thing keeps them from popping out. I gotta try that. Might just have learned something else today.


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## Onelick (Feb 26, 2006)

Smokechase II, I have never advocated, nor in any pictures that I posted have I put the wedge right next to the hinge. The wedge has always been put as far away from the hinge as possible to get the maximum lift that that particular size wedge provides and the size tree allows. 10" wedges provide 3/4"-7/8" lift and 12" wedges provide 1"-1 1/8" lift depending on the chain's kerf.
Here's a little trick for those of you that stack wedges: Try putting a little saw dust between the wedges. That provides more friction between them.


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## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2006)

*wedge stuffing*

Will saw shavings/chips work?


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## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2006)

*photo questions*







Can't tell in this photo if the wedge is next to the hinge or just mid way back.
Would suggest wedging from the rear unless trying to counter a lean a bit. 
Then maybe at a 25-30 degree angle max to help a tapered hinge.

Possibly order of fell too. If the stump was still a tree that you're headed to, 
it is a better safety zone. Then it gets dropped last.

The smaller diameter guys that are in your photos, were they spring poles 
or is that a GOL cutting technique? Sorry, but I'm not familiar with those 4" 
or so stems being cut most of the way then all the way just above, otherwise.

I like to look at both the tree going and my footing. Since I can't do that at 
the same time, I'd suggest moving away at an angle where you can do a 
couple steps, then glance back. Locally, we teach fairly strongly to not 
dead head away, some rare exceptions to seriously cover ground, but 
maybe one shouldn't be there anyway. Worst case scenario was in 1977
or 1978 where we had a trainee in SW Oregon run after cutting holding 
wood and was hit something like 72 feet from the stump.


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## clearance (Feb 26, 2006)

*picture*

I do not like the looks of that picture one little bit. Why is the wedge there? Why is the guy not looking up to see what the tree is doing? Why does he have his hand on the trigger, the saw in front of him? Looks like too big of a wedge for tree size, is that why it is there? I like to move quickly away, looking up, at the same time moving my saw so I am holding it with the bar behind me, with my left hand. The guy was hit 72' from the tree he was falling, wow.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 26, 2006)

plunge cuts, wedges right by the hinge....new stuff to me....straight and simple... humboldt, backcut, wedge if needs be... faller told me once of back cut first(not all the way though), put a wedge in but leave enough room to put bar back in... undercut, then back to the back-cut... worked pretty good... did production thinning...size ranged from dog hair to about 3'....when i'd go to my piece I'd always have a spare bar and chain so if i got pinched it could take the saw from the pinched bar, put the spare barnchain on and fly at 'er... the production aspect was pretty dangerous though... alot of times didn't bother to use undercuts, just stump jumped em and let them slide of the bar... unsafe and a bit of an art...


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## clearance (Feb 26, 2006)

Thats right Jak, humboldt, backcut, wedges down she goes. The saying is undercut, backcut, ****. I used to space, never anything over 10", stump jumped all day, 266XP, 18" bar. Stump jumping is a blast once you figure it out. Falling- I have put the backcut in first, but only on trees that were to small to wedge over the usuall way. I am not a certified faller and unlike a few tree service guys I have worked with, I don't pretend to be one, certainly never call myself a faller, pounded a few trees though if you know what I mean.


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 26, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Can't tell in this photo if the wedge is next to the hinge or just mid way back.
> Would suggest wedging from the rear unless trying to counter a lean a bit.
> Then maybe at a 25-30 degree angle max to help a tapered hinge.
> 
> ...



This picture reminds me of the beer league slowpitch softball player who wears the sweat bands, the pin striped baseball pants with a belt, eye black, the $300 hundred softball bat and then hits four little dribblers back to the pitcher. It is amazing how people want to look the part before they know what they a playing.


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## 1I'dJak (Feb 26, 2006)

266xp...classic.... one of the best saws around...hard work that spacing.... quite a racket it was too....the bigger stuff i was spacing was one of the best jobs i've ever had...we were to thin out the riparian zones (30-50m adjacent to river) to about 350/ha.... stands were 30-50yrs....were told to make sure of stand diversity (not just biggest and best) and were to to screef (scar up the bark with the saw) to promote wildlife tree characteristics on the odd tree... it was nice...in the woods, by a river... i remember feeding horse flies to the coho in the streams....


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## woodfarmer (Mar 12, 2006)

*onelicks photo*

when these were posted originally , i questioned if the wedge was in the face cut as it is difficult to tell in the picture and also is it necessary to plunge cut such a small tree, the majority of the ones i get into are 20-30" and rarely plunge cut.


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## gulfislandgurl (Mar 16, 2006)

*I agree*



Onelick said:


> I just use K&H "red head" wedges. Never steel wedges, that's stupid.


 I agree my dad along time ago used a few steel wedges to make ceder rails and that bit him square in the face (lucky to be alive) sucking food through a straw for months now he can brush his teeth in his hand and never looked the same again unless of course go right a head if you don't like eating and having a beautiful smile be careful


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## Gologit (Mar 16, 2006)

Tree Sling'r said:


> This picture reminds me of the beer league slowpitch softball player who wears the sweat bands, the pin striped baseball pants with a belt, eye black, the $300 hundred softball bat and then hits four little dribblers back to the pitcher. It is amazing how people want to look the part before they know what they a playing.




LOL...What gave him away? The brand new hickory shirt with no rips and tears? Pants not stagged off? I know...he's just too clean, thats gotta be it.


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## woodchuck361 (Jan 9, 2008)

*wedge question*

Old post I am using just to save from starting a new one and the title is correct for my question.

I have seen steel,mag,and plastic wedges and I know what a high lift wedge should do? but what the heck is the wooden thing? and what is the ring for?





HighLiftWedge300.jpg[/img]


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## Fuzly (Jan 10, 2008)

I took the GOL basic this fall. I find myself plunging just about everything now. They do teach the big wedges in from the side as close to the back as you can get it before you "cut the strap" and let her go or wedge her over.

I asked about the big wedges. Teacher said they didn't have the best mechanical advantage coming in from the side, but easier to pound than the little ones, less likely to shoot out, carry one size of wedge, etc. were the advantages given. He purposely picked out back leaners and the technique worked fine.

Only questions I have is why the tall stumps? I try to get everything where I can drive over it and the greatest volume of wood is in the butt.

And no, I don't know what that ring and wooden thing are for.:biggrinbounce2:


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## JackD_ME (Jan 10, 2008)

The high stumps don't make any sense to me, either! 
He's cutting right where a sap spout (maple syrup) or wire fence COULD be and doubling the work if he was to cut the stump off after.
But he'd look great in a JCPenny catalog!

That last picture looks like the wood goes into the metal wedge and the ring goes over the other end of the wood to hold it together, once you start pounding.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 10, 2008)

I like the dirt and/or sawdust idea too. yes, always stack at 90 degrees. Hard head wedges do drive damn well, but I've only borrowed them, why, who knows. Yes, exactly, why carry a spare saw when a spare saw and chain (or 2 chains- sharpen at night). 2 wedges simultaneously, alternatelty pounded, is the way to lift big wood. Wedges to support the hinge is a myth, the length of the hinge across the stump is supporting the side lean, wedges push over the back lean. Fact. Cause what's that wedge doing once you get a 1/4" of lift from the wedge you're pounding from the back? Nothing, cause its the hinge wood thats holding the side lean. False sense of security. JC Pennys look , yes. High stumps, yes. Hard core prof. cutter?, not yet. Hell, either you get killed or you get good, right?

See, in the east coast we have such different growth form- heavy crowns and heavy leaners. I've cut with some west coast guys who came east to cusome timber, some might call it carpetbagging, easier here with less laws and regs. Humboldt is way cool, very artistic, and the wide array of variations of the technique really brings out the craftsmanship in felling. But, you cannot do that on the east coast. You must directional fell (bore cut) on the east coast or you will break too much wood- sure you can humboldt/back cut some trees but not all of them, no way. Barberchair, broken wood, etc too much.
remember, hinge width is 10% of stump diameter max. If you're going to have to really push it over, use a super thin hinge, this will not affect the side lean strength (don't quote me on that) A 3/4 inch hinge on a 34" oak is way easier to push over than a 2" or god forbid 3 1/4 inch hinge.

If it sets back on you before you have a wedge in, you may be able to squeak one in behind the hinge to work a gap toward the back to put in your real pounder, but if not, like said already, just bore in below your back cut and put the wedge in there.

And yes, occasionaly theres one I thought I could push over and you have your wedges in there and you hit em and you give it the first tap and a swing and you know right then there is no way that is going to get pushed over. Maybe a hardhead wedge could do it, but thats when I may be prone to just cutting it all over again (dangerous, recut with care only where its obviously going to fall,) let er' rip, can't lay em all down perfectly- give to skidder/dozer/shovel what have you a little extra work. Love cutting timber, true craft, an honor to be amongst the crowd.


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