# Catalytic vs. Secondary Burners



## Iron Head (Nov 20, 2011)

What are your thoughts on this two types and the advantages/disadvantages of them both?
When I was out shopping for my new insert, the local shop told me to stay away from catalytic burners.
I'm very happy with my non-catalytic.


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## SierraWoodsman (Nov 20, 2011)

*CAT VS. Non CAT*

My Vote Is for a Well Designed Catalytic, such as a Blaze King. Reasons Why?... Longer Burntimes for one. Easily 12 hours even with pine. Very efficient operation & more "even" heat, you can turn down the thermostat and just keep the house cozy for long periods of time and still maintan efficency without a "smoldering fire". Both produce beautiful fires but I've noticed that my woodcutting partner uses almost twice the wood I do using his EPA certified Non-catalytic stove heating a similer sized house. Buying a new cat every 3 or 4 years costing close to $200 is the only downside I see. The way I see it that means you spend less time, money, and effort chopping, hauling, stacking, moving, and loading wood for your stove, All that pays for it's self in the long run with a Catalytic. Here's a informational Video: Blaze King Industries


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## Misfit138 (Nov 20, 2011)

SierraWoodsman said:


> ...Buying a new cat every 3 or 4 years costing close to $200 is the only downside I see..[/url]



I disagree with your conclusion based on the time and money spent on a new catalyst; I prefer the simplicity of non-cat. For me it's just one less thing to worry about replacing.
My stove is a Country S160, and burns just about as clean as the cleanest cat stoves, and creates virtually zero creosote and very, very little carbon in my installation.

In my opinion, if you practice good techniques with dry fuel, and keep your flue as straight and as short as possible (all considerations for code and good draft, etc.) then a non-cat can perform about as well or better than a cat stove all other factors being equal. 
I think you will find that much of the experience and successes/failures also come down to build quality of the stove itself. Country makes an excellent product, but they are very expensive. My local guy says he sells less than one a year around here due to the high price tags.


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## logbutcher (Nov 20, 2011)

Here we go....again. Let's talk from real world experience with both kinds of stoves. 

We heat a ~ 1800 ft² well insulated, self-built home with two wood stoves heating similar sized areas. The cat stove, a VC Encore has been working 24/7 (winter) since 2001. A non-cat Jotul Oslo for the past 5 years. No central heating or any auxiliary fossil heater on such as "set for 65 F ". 
The Encore is the third Encore used since 1989 having rebuilt (unfortunately) 2. When not overseas, we've been fortunate to be able to use wood stoves since the late 70's.

There are a few quality manufacturers of cat stoves such as Woodstock in N.H. The principles of cat stoves are simple: get the noble metal(s) in the cat to ignite like your catalytic converter in the exhaust system, then thru various damping paths, the gases are "reburnt", recirculating the heat, then sent to their clean death up your flue ( no banjo comments please :jester. Cat wood stoves usually have a thermostatic air control that can be nearly shut completely off, and usually a thermostatic secondary air control in order to keep the cat "lit" with O2 (air). There is an extra step in the burn cycle to get the cat up to temperature ~1200 F. It is this last extra process in using the stove that users (us) either didn't do right, or found to be too much effort. The wood stove industry is tiny. They needed to market to consumers who wanted simple. Cat stoves are complex and high maintenance IF things are not right. 
Ergo, the non-cat development in the 90's to reach clean burns mandated by the EPA here and pollution agencies in other countries.

Non-cat stoves are simpler, user friendly in that there is one air control. The recirculating and reburn of the incomplete combustion is done by heating up burn tubes. Also the air control is a mommie device: not too much primary air, AND not too little. The non cat burns faster in our experience. No cat to replace or clean. Although, the "burn tubes" do wear.

Result from the two kinds of stoves after 5 years, and perhaps 30+ cords : the cat Encore puts out ( no banjo comments:jester more heat, same BTUs for similar space; with similar mass and fireboxes, the Encore uses less wood. How much less ? A ballpark estimate is +/- 2/3 of the wood used by the Oslo. Remember that the cat Encore ( Woodstock, Blaze King, etc...) can be damped way down ( no 80 hour burn in anyone's lifetime! ), and the cat will operate as it should for close to 10-12 hours heating. Any more than that is just a bed of cool coals ready for the next load.

Cats have a life of ~ 12,000 hours which for us is slightly over 2 seasons. For the extra BTUs, the ability to damp primary air way down, AND the savings of my back, it's a miniscule maintenance expense. It's like changing brake rotors, or cleaning your weapon.

JMNSHO

We use both kinds because....................just because.


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## William Balaska (Nov 20, 2011)

I have both in vermont castings stoves, I like the noncat stove much better, less finnekey. The wood has to be perfect with the cat unit period. 12 hour burn times sounds like my central boiler, or a Blaze King salesman!


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## Richard C (Nov 20, 2011)

Well, I vote for a non cat. I have never had a cat modle but have seen the replacement units and don't like the idea of something that will get clogged if the wood isn't dry enough. I'll wait to hear if there are others who speak well for them.


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## SierraWoodsman (Nov 20, 2011)

*Complex?.... Your kidding right?*

I'm no blazeking salesman, just an owner that has seen both sides of the coin, and did his reasearch before buying. 
Please don't get me wrong. There are some really great non-cat stoves out there (The Lennox country striker s160 being one of them, a good looking stove by the way), and as long are your happy with your stove and it does the job you expect it to perform-thats all that really counts, Right? 

I'm quite sure there are many other owners here on AS that can confirm my 12hr statment. As for being too complex all I have to say is no way! the only thing you have to keep in mind with Catalytic is.

1: Start stove with a full load. 
2: keep the bypass open until the Thermometer reaches 500 f (not 1200 as previously mentioned.)
once the cat is up to temp you are home free. Thats about it.


All the other prerequisites such as: dry firewood, clean chiminey, Proper draft...etc are the same good practices as with any stove.
Once the cat is up to temp adjust the thermostat to where it is comfortable. Enjoy the heat....your done for the night. No more getting up @ 3am unless your old like me and have to get up to use the restroom.


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## Encore (Nov 20, 2011)

We have the Encore non cat and love it. I enjoy the simplicity of use, easy for my wife to use. I still wait for the stove to hit about 500 before I hit the damper to engage the second burn. Just seems to run more smoothly that way

We have some friends who have the Dutchmen Cat stove and love it as well. 

Like stated above , if your stove runs good for you and it heats your home, I think you're good to go. Seems like both cat and non cat are great, just depends on your experience level maybe? As well as your needs. 

We are heating a 1600 sq ft home that is well insulated and ranch style so it's easy to heat.


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## logbutcher (Nov 20, 2011)

Well, we now have another cherry Blaze King enthusiast new with wood stoves, cat or non-cat. Expert.

Sierra: if you stick your little finger into a cat :msp_scared usually done with a very high temperature probe thermometer as we used with early cats ) you will find before the finger incinerates, that the platinum or paladium coating that make s the cat operate IS AT LEAST 1200 F. The "500F " Blaze King recommends is the TEMPERATURE ON THE STOVE, not in the cat. This is how most of us who have used cat stoves for decades have monitored the cat ready to bypass/damp into cat mode. Nothing new or unique or magic. Probe tips burn out after awhile, so the makers spec stove top temp for the lighting off.

You may want to read Blaze King's OEM sheet or any manufacturer ( Sud Chemie, older Corning) of catalytic converters to understand how they do their magic. It is the high temperature of the noble metals ( read: pladium or platinum )in wood stove or vehicle that reburns incomplete combusted gases. Damn boy, it's not rocket science.

What's this thing about Blaze King anyhow ? Gee, it may cure cancer like the MS362 or 346XP or Glock 19. It's a wood stove.

I'm going to the sauce, then practice my banjo.:beated:

"PLATINUM" Platinum . Sorry Sierra. BTW: how's that finger ?


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## Iron Head (Nov 21, 2011)

SierraWoodsman said:


> I'm no blazeking salesman, just an owner that has seen both sides of the coin, and did his reasearch before buying.
> Please don't get me wrong. There are some really great non-cat stoves out there (The Lennox country striker s160 being one of them, a good looking stove by the way), and as long are your happy with your stove and it does the job you expect it to perform-thats all that really counts, Right?
> 
> I'm quite sure there are many other owners here on AS that can confirm my 12hr statment. As for being too complex all I have to say is no way! the only thing you have to keep in mind with Catalytic is.
> ...



I do those exact things with my non-cat.


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## logbutcher (Nov 21, 2011)

Encore said:


> We have the Encore non cat and love it. I enjoy the simplicity of use, easy for my wife to use. I still wait for the stove to hit about 500 before I hit the damper to engage the second burn. Just seems to run more smoothly that way
> 
> We have some friends who have the Dutchmen Cat stove and love it as well.
> 
> ...



Many many complaints about the newer VC Everburn non cat system Encore.

Can we have a review of your stove ? How used ? How often ? Wood type ? Any problems with "glowing" cast parts of the stove ?
Thanks.
LB


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm a bit confused..ok it's Monday morning:bang:
Some of the posters are talking about tubes...for gasification..if so...the idea of burning off smoke is the bottom line in making those other 30-40% of the available btu's. 
So to have a gasser or a cat system you should be making all of the btu's in a lb of wood. That of coarse will vary with moisture in the wood.

Yet this is not the end all in this convo...you've got draft speeds/flue gas temps,thermal mass and heat exchanger surface area to think about.

It's sort of funny how we all take different roads to get to the same place.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> I'm a bit confused..ok it's Monday morning:bang:
> Some of the posters are talking about tubes...for gasification..if so...the idea of burning off smoke is the bottom line in making those other 30-40% of the available btu's.
> So to have a gasser or a cat system you should be making all of the btu's in a lb of wood. That of coarse will vary with moisture in the wood.
> 
> ...


Wait, you mean one size doesn't fit all? That just cannot be - everyone must do exactly what I did so as to confirm that I am just the smartest, bestest thing out there.


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## Dalmatian90 (Nov 21, 2011)

> Gee, it may cure cancer like the MS362 or 346XP or Glock 19



Silly boy. You can only cure cancer with the combination of a Dolmar 7900 and a Fiskars Super Splitter.


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 21, 2011)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Wait, you mean one size doesn't fit all? That just cannot be -



 That's what she said...


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## Encore (Nov 21, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Many many complaints about the newer VC Everburn non cat system Encore.
> 
> Can we have a review of your stove ? How used ? How often ? Wood type ? Any problems with "glowing" cast parts of the stove ?
> Thanks.
> LB



Sure thing!

We bought it last year when we bought our new house. It's got an 8" flue that goes straight up through the roof. I can honestly say we've never had glowing parts. 

We burn wood that's been split and stacked for a year or close to it. Oak, maple, hickory, cherry and black walnut are the most common. 

When I light a fire, I let the stove get to about 500-550 griddle temp and then I close the big damper. The stove will drop down to around 450 or so initially and then get back up to around 500 as the coal bed gets deeper. 

When the stove is running at 450-500 we get literally no smoke out of the chimney (visible) just heat waves. 

If I load the stove up after getting it nice and hot and then close the air control damper about 80-90% of the way (I dont like closing it all the way) I have gotten 8-10hr burn times depending on the type of wood we have in there. Burn time meaning enough coals that when I get home I can throw some wood in there and manipulate the draft a little and be good to go in about 25min. 

I clean the stove completely about twice a year. I take the stack that is inside the house, off the stove after brushing the chimney and I stick a flexible vacume hose down the sides of the secondary burn chamber (had to rig a small hose up so that it could fit all around back there) to clean things up. I don't usually get much but I do get a little bit of very fine ash. 

We've never had problems with draft, glowing parts or anything. Stove performs exactly as VC claimed it would. 

I'm interested in the problems others are having though. I realize not every stove is going to be created the same, but other than glowing parts what problems are people having? What causes the glowing parts?

Sorry for hijacking the thread. I probably should have just created a new thread.


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## Misfit138 (Nov 21, 2011)

SierraWoodsman said:


> ... There are some really great non-cat stoves out there (The Lennox country striker s160 being one of them, a good looking stove by the way),


Thanks, glad you like it.
As I have pushed past middle age I am becoming a bit 'set in my ways', though, and simplicity is one of my sticking points I suppose. So if someone asks me, I would give my opinion and substantiate it by my adherence to the 'keep it simple' mantra.
Both my cousins have cat inserts and they love them, but they don't mind fiddling with them..and they do require _some_ fiddling..and a little extra attention to detail and maintenance. Since I crave simplicity, a high-quality non-cat is better for my needs, and therefore better overall in my opinion; after brushing the flue, shoveling out the ash and touching up any scratches in the paint, I am done for the season.



> and as long are your happy with your stove and it does the job you expect it to perform-thats all that really counts, Right?..


Yes, well said. This is the bottom line.


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## Chip_365 (Nov 21, 2011)

Fiddling? I've been using a Blaze King stove with a cat as my only heat source here in the Canadian north, for 7 mths or more each year, for the last 6 years, & I haven't EVER fiddled, touched or cleaned the cat & it looks & burns like it always has. I burn as per the manual & EASILY get 12+ hr burns except below -25 C, & not even burning a full load on warmer days. We had -23 C the other night, & got 12 hrs. no problem, & the stove was hot, not just faint coals. I burn pine 90% of our long winter. My house is 1800 sq ft, stove is in the basement & there are 2 levels above that. Chimney is 25 ft long. I'm also off the grid & use the woodstove to cook my foods & meals, morning coffee, etc., so I rely on my woodstove to be in excellent working order or else I'd be in trouble, a lot of trouble if I got snowed in & the temps plummeted. I also don't burn more than a couple of cords a season.

So not all catalytic burners need fiddling or are complicated. Blaze Kings certainly don't. My catalyst is 6 yrs. old too. I can't think of anything simpler & with excellent performance. I don't see a need to change mine out after 2 seasons of 6+ mths x 24 hrs of use or after even 6 seasons of full time use.


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## logbutcher (Nov 22, 2011)

Chip_365 said:


> Fiddling? I've been using a Blaze King stove with a cat as my only heat source here in the Canadian north, for 7 mths or more each year, for the last 6 years, & I haven't EVER fiddled, touched or cleaned the cat & it looks & burns like it always has. I burn as per the manual & EASILY get 12+ hr burns except below -25 C, & not even burning a full load on warmer days. We had -23 C the other night, & got 12 hrs. no problem, & the stove was hot, not just faint coals. I burn pine 90% of our long winter. My house is 1800 sq ft, stove is in the basement & there are 2 levels above that. Chimney is 25 ft long. I'm also off the grid & use the woodstove to cook my foods & meals, morning coffee, etc., so I rely on my woodstove to be in excellent working order or else I'd be in trouble, a lot of trouble if I got snowed in & the temps plummeted. I also don't burn more than a couple of cords a season.
> 
> So not all catalytic burners need fiddling or are complicated. Blaze Kings certainly don't. My catalyst is 6 yrs. old too. I can't think of anything simpler & with excellent performance. I don't see a need to change mine out after 2 seasons of 6+ mths x 24 hrs of use or after even 6 seasons of full time use.



The original OEM of wood cats was Corning, since sold to other makers Chip. My experience with cats in 3 stoves since '89 has been that the operational life of a ceramic cat, now there are metal based ones, is around 12,000 hours of use. The noble metal wears out, the ceramic grid cracks, and/or the mechanical structure of the cat deteriorates. I've replaced 4 in that period. The cat in the VC Encore now is a new metal based cat.

So some questions: have you checked that the 6 year cat is actually lighting off ( put in some wet, semi-seasoned or green wood on coals, run out in your -20C weather with layers on :wink2:, and after damping, if you have clear smoke, it's good to go ) ? Got a probe into the cat to monitor temps ? You obviously use well seasoned wood. If so, the fires are burning clean without the cat operating....a possibility. Remember, even vehicle exhaust catalysts wear out after years of running. 

That's minimal heating BTW for you, compared to many of us in colder climes, using ~ 2 cords of pine for a 1800 ft² home. For example, our ~ 1800 ft² place needs at least 6 real cords of hardwoods (Red Maple, Paper Birch, smaller amounts of Red Oak and Ash ) to heat 99 44/100 %, 24/7 with 2 stoves. I can understand how your cat still does the job.

B.C. climate is supposed to be temperate, not often averaging below 0 C. Where, except in high elevations are you getting -20 C ?


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## logbutcher (Nov 22, 2011)

Encore said:


> Sure thing!
> 
> We bought it last year when we bought our new house. It's got an 8" flue that goes straight up through the roof. I can honestly say we've never had glowing parts.
> 
> ...



No apologies, this IS a thread about cat vs non-cat.
The complaints about the VC Everburn stoves are posted on *hearthnet*...that's my only source. Apparently the reburning path in the stove creates an overburn in the rear plates that according to some owners, glows red. 
Glad to hear that your Encore does what it should.
Appreciate the response.


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## EXCALIBER (Nov 22, 2011)

Well Hmm...where to start. I really don't believe that the majority of cats are wearing out at 12000 hours of use. IF you burned 6 months straight 24/7 that would be 3 years of burning instead of 6? If they wore out so soon why would the manufacturer warranty the cat for 6 years? I am sure it is like many things, example car batteries. I have seen cheap car batteries go bad in a couple of months or less, however, I have seen good name brand ones last 12 years or more. Quality of the product and how it is used will have a great effect of its useful lifespan.

Second the cat (at least new ones, do not run 1200 degrees to light off). In my stove the cat is about less than an inch from the top of the stove. I have used a infrared temp gun, on the stove top it's usually 350 when cat is active at normal setting. If the cat were 1200 to light off (getting hotter as it burns) the stove top, less than a half inch away would be like 600 plus degrees all the time the cat is active then increasing as you increased the stove burn. Blaze King says active zone of cat is 500-1700 degrees, not 1200 and up. 

I would not suggest using wet wood in any stove, unless this was the very last option, not to mention the owners manual, if you read it, will tell you to burn wood between 12-18 percent moisture. Burning wet wood in a cat is bad for the cat and will shorten its lifespan. You can tell the cat is burning right with seasoned dry wood. 1.) Run stove on high then check for the cat glowing. 2.) open damper then close it and you will see a huge difference. 3.) Cat thermometer that fails to stay active when set at normal setting on the stove (for Blaze King cannot attest for other stoves).

Now I am not sure about other stoves but a cat stove from Blaze King is not difficult to run, light, or otherwise operate. 
1.)To light my stove you fill the bottom of it with newspaper, then put small pieces of wood on top of the paper, then larger pieces on top of the smaller wood and so on. Same as on any stove. 
2.)Turn the thermostat to high, open the cat bypass lever, light the newspaper, leave the door cracked for the first couple of minutes of burning until fire is established sufficiently, then close door. 
3.)Watch temp on thermometer on top of stove until it reaches active on the gauge. Close bypass lever and set thermostat on side of stove to normal, or desired setting.

Sure maybe a few extra simple steps to do, but even a stove without a cat you have to wait a few minutes to allow fire to get established before you set the damper or air control. If this is considered complicated then you should really consider not driving a car, as that is far more complicated than a good cat stove.

Now the downside of a cat: You have to check the cat every so often to make sure the front of cat is clean. Simple to do, run stove on high, then look at glowing cat, if cat is not equally glowing across it's entire face then you have blockage on front of the cat. You can easily see when this happens if it does. To clean simply let fire go out or cool (this will take quite a while with a Blaze KING), remove a metal plate in front of the cat and brush with soft brush (I use the one off the vacuum). AT this time you can also blow the cat out with air if you so wish. DO NOT USE TO MUCH AIR use your head. I use my shop vac at the end of the season. Cats do need to be replaced depending on how much you burn and how you use your stove, but usually 6 to 10 years of usable lifespan burning 6 months a year. You need to burn only wood that is dry. Do not burn trash or paper that is shiny, ect. because the chemicals of such will ruin a cat over time. You don't put diesel in a top fuel dragster so don't put trash in a high performance stove. Cats are around $300 for my stove to replace and its a simple and easy thing to do, no technician needed you can do it yourself, takes maybe 10 minutes to change one out if that. For me it's simply far cheaper to have, and replace a cat every so often, than it is to burn more wood every year. Even if your not buying your wood, fuel is so expensive anymore that the less you have to haul, split, stack, the better. If you want to keep cutting you can always sell the extra wood you would have normally just had to burn to stay warm. 

Now high performance secondary burn stoves without a cat still have downsides. You are not supposed to burn trash in them either, they too need dry seasoned wood, and they too have parts that are maintenance items. The secondary burn tubes in these stoves need replaced, as well as the top fire baffle curtain, or whatever they call it, every so often. I would say in the same amount of time that you would normally have to replace the cat in a cat stove. The fire curtain is fairly easy to replace on most stoves, however the secondary burn tubes are a different story. Most of the tubes are spot welded into the top of the stove, thus to replace them you have to grind the welds off to remove them, then get new ones and re-weld them back into place. Maybe some are bolted in but I have not seen any this way. You also have to clean these tubes to make sure the holes are open and remove ash from inside the tubes as it builds up. Not so easy to do.

Good and bad in both designs but for my money its a good cat stove every day and twice on Sunday. Not all cat stove are created equal as not all secondary burn stoves with tubes are created equal. Find a good stove and spend the extra money the first time, instead of buying a stove then having it work OK, eventually having to replace it with a better stove. Of course finances will play a role but I would rather do it once right, and not have to re-do anything the second time. Each to their own and I hope this helps.


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## Felman (Nov 22, 2011)

1 SIMILARITY i SEE IS THAT BOTH CAT & FLAMING TUBES CREATE A HOT ZONE ABOVE THE LOAD?


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## laynes69 (Nov 22, 2011)

The only stoves that will have welded tubes is lower end stoves, same with baffles. A good secondary stove or furnace contains materials to resist heat better. The Caddy furnace has a baffle material made of c-cast. It won't warp or crack and if I recall it's rated up to 3000 degrees. The burn tubes of our furnace are made of stainless steel. I pull a cotter pin and remove a tube, it's that simple. They carry a 7 year warranty. A baffle on a PE is made of stainless and if I recall carries a lifetime warranty. Cheaper stoves have welded steel baffles and tubes, these are hard to repair. There's no reason for the burn tubes to plug. Theres always air coming from them. A good design has internals that can easily be replaced.

Both secondary and cat stoves require seasoned wood. I think though a secondary stove is more forgiving with higher moisture. Thermal shock can and will occur in a cat if the wood isn't seasoned correctly. Nothing will be damaged in a secondary stove other than creosote. Also in a cat stove there's more interior parts that can wear. If a bypass doesn't work correctly or warping occurs inside the cat won't work correctly. In the long run if your stove is built of good materials and has a good warranty there's little to worry about.


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## Eric Modell (Nov 22, 2011)

Laynes can you comment on the brands of secondary burn stoves that should not have to have parts replaced under normal burn situations.

You also mentioned creosote build up if some green wood was burned. If dry wood was then used will the creosote not burn out?

Thanks for the information I would like to get a new stove and do not want a high maintenance situation.


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## Chip_365 (Nov 22, 2011)

British Columbia (B.C.) covers a HUGE land area, from the ocean to the Rocky Mtns, from the USA border to the edge of Alaska & the Yukon. My guess is that maybe 5% of the province could be described as temperate, such as sea level areas along the coast or close to the USA border. I live near the center of BC at around 3500 ft above sea level, between 2 very close mountain ranges. Prince George would be the closest city. Not much north of my area, the rest of "temperate" BC, has been under -20 C for over a week. Our cold spell only lasted a couple of nights. Today it's a mix of snow & rain.

My 6 year old catalytic burner is working perfectly as per the Blaze King manual, which I JUST checked to make sure I wasn't blowing smoke. As per the manual operation check list, the catalytic burner is spot on. Also, it passes the manuals combustion test procedure, clean inspection, & operation performance & as per the combuster thermometer setting while burning. Nothing has degraded in the 6 years that I've used the stove / catalytic combuster. I do check things as I use them. The manual gives no time line for changing the combuster, such as your suggested 12,000 hrs or every 2 years, but it does offer a testing guide to determine how well the combuster is working for one to use & a guide to use on how to tell when the combuster is deteriorating in performance.

So no, I haven't checked as per your green wet wood suggestion, & the stove comes with it's own combuster thermometer & which is working fine, again as per the manual's thermometer performance check list. 

I put 3 - 5 inch rounds of pine in at 6:30 am & now at 1:30, 7 hours later the combuster temp is still in the active range. It was glowing / burning for most of that time, but even when it's not glowing, it is still working, according to the manual. No blue smoke out the chimney, though there is when the combuster is bypassed even with my well seasoned pine, fir or birch.

I'm just saying that my experience with a cat stove is WAY different than yours is. And my 13 year old Toyota 4Runner is still on the original set of front disc brakes, muffler, clutch & the engine runs like new at 483,000 kms of rough road off grid use. Not all vehicles like not all stoves like not all users of each, have the same experiences. Next time you get a cat stove, get a Blaze King, & end your fiddling & catalytic combuster repacements & your burning so much wood. Just kidding you. We're all in this together & we can all learn from each other.

Sent from my HTC DHD using Tapatalk App.


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## logbutcher (Nov 22, 2011)

Mr. Excaliber you are one piece of work. One wood stove for how long ? Truth. Minimal heating ? Ergo=Expert. You are now to be annointed King Arthur.:bang:

Do you wonder why no one from Blaze King has stuck an oar in your water ? This is kind of embarassing for them. 

Catalytic combustors have a specified "life" of +/- 12,000 hours FROM THE OEM TECHNICAL MANUALS. Like tires or batteries, to use your examples, they are PRO-RATED: 2 years or under the cat,if failed, will be replaced with no cost. From 2 years to 6 years of use from purchase, the replacement cost will vary with the age. Period.

Some technical data and facts from using cats for a long time: after ~12,000 hours the efficiency does go down. The noble metals platinum or paladium do wear ( please see tech data from the manufacturers ). 12,000 hours could be 2 years of hard use, or much more with less use. Fact.

You obviously do not enjoy factual data. It ain't so bad Ex. Try it. Research. Ask. Get some wood chops.:beat_brick:


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## chile verde (Nov 22, 2011)

EXCALIBER said:


> Second the cat (at least new ones, do not run 1200 degrees to light off). In my stove the cat is about less than an inch from the top of the stove. I have used a infrared temp gun, on the stove top it's usually 350 when cat is active at normal setting. If the cat were 1200 to light off (getting hotter as it burns) the stove top, less than a half inch away would be like 600 plus degrees all the time the cat is active then increasing as you increased the stove burn. Blaze King says active zone of cat is 500-1700 degrees, not 1200 and up.


Yeah...my Woodstock Fireview manual says the cat's ready when the surface T reads 250F, given the external T's roughly 1/2 the internal T (500F).

I did quite a bit of research before buying and concluded that, _if _the owner habitually performs regular maintenance, the benefits far outweigh the costs. If not...it's still pretty much an even trade-off. Getting ~30% better efficiency more than offsets the periodic cost of a new cat every 3~6 yrs.


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## Highbeam (Nov 22, 2011)

I live near the OP. It is very often the case that stove stores recommend against cat stoves. Why? Because they don't sell cat stoves. They want you to buy what they sell. Seriously, do you ever hear a ford dealership sell you a Kia?

I don't like VC stoves. It is a terrible idea to buy anything made by the VC company in the last decade or so. They are not easy to use or well engineered. Seems that the VC company tries too hard and fails.

I burn a non-cat stone stove. I've shoved well over 30 cords through it. The OP and I can appreciate that some climates have long long burn seasons but not super cold. We burn 9+ months of the year and hold only about a 35 degree temp differential from inside to out. Because of this climate, the cat stoves are superior performers. I don't care about the wood savings, the clean emissions, or the brand. What you need in this climate to burn 24/7 is a large stove, with long burn times, and lower heat output. The cat stoves just do that better. 

The brands to look for are BK (best and from hardware stores) and then woodstock (mail order). Both of these are top performers and aren't sold at regular stove shops.

Heck, the BK stoves are even made in WA.


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## laynes69 (Nov 22, 2011)

Eric Modell said:


> Laynes can you comment on the brands of secondary burn stoves that should not have to have parts replaced under normal burn situations.
> 
> You also mentioned creosote build up if some green wood was burned. If dry wood was then used will the creosote not burn out?
> 
> Thanks for the information I would like to get a new stove and do not want a high maintenance situation.



I would stay away from usstove. Some of their stoves cannot be easily repaired and are made of cheaper materials. I would look at the top plate thickness some are 3/16 while others are 5/16. An insulated stainless baffle will hold up to heat and not damage easily. Some of the insulated vermiculite or other types of baffles damage easily. The c-cast baffles that are used by Osburn and Drolet are very durable and withstand high heat. I know their warranties are also great. I wouldn't attempt to burn out creosote. Green wood will not burn well and if creosote accumulated then I would sweep. Burning good wood in a good stove and there should be little creosote.


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## Misfit138 (Nov 22, 2011)

Felman said:


> 1 SIMILARITY i SEE IS THAT BOTH CAT & FLAMING TUBES CREATE A HOT ZONE ABOVE THE LOAD?



Yes that is correct.
A catalytic stove uses a catalyst element which is heated by the hot gases which flow over it, which in turn becomes superheated for the purpose of reburning smoke, which would essentially be wasted energy. So, the process of reburnt smoke helps to heat your home rather than going up the chimney and also adds to the cycling effect, thereby keeping the catalyst up to temps.

A non-catalytic stove uses superheated air, which is channeled through the body of the stove and released into the top of the burn chamber by air tubes. There is typically fire brick right above these tubes, in order to form an insulation barrier so that more heat is kept within the burn chamber, to enhance the superheating effect. My Country S160 also has a ceramic blanket layer of insulation over the top of the firebrick to improve this effect further. When unburnt gases rise up, they ignite by combining with the hot oxygen supplied by the burn tubes and the cycle repeats.


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## EXCALIBER (Nov 23, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Mr. Excaliber you are one piece of work. One wood stove for how long ? Truth. Minimal heating ? Ergo=Expert. You are now to be annointed King Arthur.:bang:
> 
> Do you wonder why no one from Blaze King has stuck an oar in your water ? This is kind of embarassing for them.
> 
> ...



logbutcher do you ever stop broadcasting and start receiving? Go back and actually read what I put down. Not sure what you are asking how long I have had my stove? Two years now. How long I have heated with wood, most my life (20 plus years). Again not sure what you mean by minimal heating? No I don't wonder why someone from Blaze King has not "stuck an oar in" because what I am saying is the same they would tell you, same on the Blaze King site, same on the Blaze King video if you would listen or actually watch and learn. Both Blaze King and people I have talked that have one say 6-10 years on a cat average, they also say 500 to 1700 degrees for active cat, (not 1200). So what am I saying that is wrong? I am human and may have missed something but I don't believe I have. 

Frankly sir, what you are saying does not make one little bit of sense. Why would a company say my product only lasts 12,000 hours (according to you two years burning) yet we decided to warranty it for 6 years (pro-rated after two), just because we like you that much. Actually I can see this idea catching on, just think! Buy a new truck that is rated for 50,000 miles before it breaks down, and you get a 100,000 mile warranty. So much for that company's profits. Yeah that would make perfect sense right? 

Since you consider burning green wet wood as a good idea I can see why you only got two years of use out of a cat, but look at the bright side, you got one for free right (under two years). Yes, they are pro-rated just like batteries are, that is why I used them as a example. Both of them can be abused or used wrong causing short life spans (again read what I put in my last post saying average). This is the reason company's pro-rate their products. If it costs the consumer a little money they are way more likely to treat the product as it was designed and intended, instead of saying, oh well, its under warranty, lets abuse it. In this case not burning green wet wood since the cat manual says that is a no-no and will damage the cat. You could run a cat hard and have it go bad in less time than two years true. Hell I could fill my stove full of propane and watch it go boom, guess they should warranty that too. Bottom line used as most people do, and used correctly, a cat has a real world life of 6-10 years of use. Yeah it may lose some of its efficiency over time. Every stove type will, even a secondary burn stove with tubes, loses efficiency over time. Nothing lasts forever, well other than your rants. LOL

Actually I do like the truth and facts, both are great, like for instance you spell these words this way: Wrong Correct
annointed anointed 
embarassing embarrassing 
paladium palladium 

Lighten up dude, think, listen, learn, that's why we are all here.


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## Ronaldo (Nov 23, 2011)

I have used both types,but have the most experience with non-cat.I lived in Wyoming for several years and used an EARTH STOVE brand insert with a catalyst and burned Ponderosa Pine.It worked great and put out a lot of heat-never needed to replace the cat while I used it.Now am living back on the family farm in Iowa and purchased a PACIFIC ENERGY Super 27 about 12 years ago to supply my heating needs.The PE stove uses a stainless steel baffle box in the top of the stove with ceramic wool blanket on top of that.The baffle introduces oxygen rich air into super heated area of stove to accomplish the secondary burn.The PE stove works great,puts off plenty of heat for our 2000s.f. home and is simple to use-am very pleased with it.I do notice a bit more visible smoke at times with the PE stove than I did with the Earth Stove,but that may be a difference in the type of wood being burned.One thing I have learned over the years is that you normally get what you pay for-----in other words buy quality the first time and you will have a unit that works and works well.


Ron


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## logbutcher (Nov 23, 2011)

*Dear King Artthur*

Dear King Arthur:
Thanks you for correcting the spelling through the wonder of the internet. It is the content, not spelling.You didn't know about the noble metals or that the cat light off is ~ (meaning "around" ) 1200 F ? What was Corning ? What is paLLadium ?

As for a straw dog K.A.: nothing was posted re: using green wood ( what was posted is that *IF the man wants to burn green, then he will* ).
You need to read more than online videos or google. People choose how they use anything. 

Long experienced wood burners CHOOSE ( caps ) not to burn unseasoned wood; more efficient, easier to heat since we do use wood heat as a primary heat source. Not a backup for your central furnace as you said you use and have . 

And for you to read carefully: the AVERAGE (repeat "average") efficient ( "efficient" ) life of wood stove cats is engineered to be 12000 hours. NOT that I WILL replace then AT 12000 hours of use. ( Gee, have to use caps to get you to read correctly ). Please ask, ask Blaze King about their OEM cat maker. ( BK is HQ in WA ) Then read what the manufacturer technical info states. There have been times that our cat was replaced after 4.5 years of use ( didn't pay attention to its efficiency ), and once after 2 years of 2 seasons of long below zero winters. That's a fact K.A. 

Another fact that will be disturbing: in some parts of North America, 24/7 heating can run for 8 months. "Shoulder seasons" as they are termed often run into June and into September. So, when one heats with wood as the heating source, "2 years" could well over 12,000 hours of use. Thought that you'd like to be enlightened.:msp_w00t:

P.S. Are you still getting a full "40 hours of high heating" from your stove ? Not what B.K. states. There is this bridge for sale..........................:looser:

You are certainly one piece of work. I am diss-missed (sp).

P.S. Apologies to all for the ad hominum bashing. The uniformed and inexperienced blabber does become tiring. No more responses.....promise.

P.P.S. K.A. you are not permitted to call me "sir". I am out of that, active, and happily retired....young. You may however salute from the corn fields..


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## EXCALIBER (Nov 23, 2011)

Logbutcher earlier in the thread you stated:"So some questions: have you checked that the 6 year cat is actually lighting off ( put in some wet, semi-seasoned or green wood on coals, run out in your -20C weather with layers on , and after damping, if you have clear smoke, it's good to go ) ?"

To answer your questions: Yes I knew about how a cat works and that they use noble metals in the cat, before I even bought the stove, and read the owners manual which also goes into detail about the cat. Corning has not made cats for Blaze King in years. They also no longer use the ceramic cats, rather stainless steel ones like in my stove. Yeah I guess 500 degrees is close to 1,200 degrees like half a tank of gas is close to a full tank, half a paycheck is just as good as a full one right? What is Palladium, that is how you spell the word correctly and that is one of the many noble metals you were thinking I didn't know about. As for the 12,000 hours of use before they are not efficient but don't need replace? Huh? If it is no longer being efficient why not replace it then? Please show us this manufacturer info that you are claiming of 12,000 hours, we would like to see it. However I am not about to do the research and legwork to prove your point, that no one else has ever heard about. Maybe shoulder your own load of proof, like I have in many of the other threads when you had questions instead of how did you put it? " The uniformed and inexperienced blabber does become tiring". 

Yes I know about burning for 8 months or more, I was born and raised, as you know, in Bozeman Montana. We heated with an old non EPA stove, a Yellowstone. We fed it pine and heated a two level 1800 sq ft home in the mountains. Two years of burning 8 months each, still does not go over your mythical 12,000 hours of efficient cat use, least not where I went to school. 24 hours a day, 7 days in a week, 4 weeks in a month, 8 months: So 24x7=168, 168x4=672, 672x8=5,376 hours. Now two years would be 10,752 hours of burning, guess that's close like 500 is close to 1200 degrees.

Yes I am guilty as charged, (as you know because I have stated yet again in other threads with you) I have a furnace and I do set the temp all winter on 90 degrees. However it has not been working very good the last two years, so I called a local heating technician. They assured me my heating system was in working order as far as they could tell. So I asked why it only blows cold air and why only as far as they could tell? He said, simply you have to have a propane tank and then hook it up to the heating system to produce heat. It will only blow cold air now due to only being used in tandem with your central ac unit. We cannot test it due to not having it hooked up to the mythical tank that you do not have. Hmm who knew, oh that's right you already did Logbutcher, due to me already telling you all this. Please read what is there and stop trying to justify your opinions with make believe, made up stories. Please by all means bring facts, facts that are actually backed up with paperwork, ect. 

No I am not gettiing a 40 hours burn as you know I am currently still burning cotton wood and only get 24 hours of burn on a full load. Sometimes less sometimes more varying on outside temps, ect. Same as any stove does.


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## SierraWoodsman (Nov 24, 2011)

*Your spot on Excal, But Wasting your time trying to reason w/Butcher*



EXCALIBER said:


> Logbutcher earlier in the thread you stated:"So some questions: have you checked that the 6 year cat is actually lighting off ( put in some wet, semi-seasoned or green wood on coals, run out in your -20C weather with layers on , and after damping, if you have clear smoke, it's good to go ) ?"
> 
> To answer your questions: Yes I knew about how a cat works and that they use noble metals in the cat, before I even bought the stove, and read the owners manual which also goes into detail about the cat. Corning has not made cats for Blaze King in years. They also no longer use the ceramic cats, rather stainless steel ones like in my stove. Yeah I guess 500 degrees is close to 1,200 degrees like half a tank of gas is close to a full tank, half a paycheck is just as good as a full one right? What is Palladium, that is how you spell the word correctly and that is one of the many noble metals you were thinking I didn't know about. As for the 12,000 hours of use before they are not efficient but don't need replace? Huh? If it is no longer being efficient why not replace it then? Please show us this manufacturer info that you are claiming of 12,000 hours, we would like to see it. However I am not about to do the research and legwork to prove your point, that no one else has ever heard about. Maybe shoulder your own load of proof, like I have in many of the other threads when you had questions instead of how did you put it? " The uniformed and inexperienced blabber does become tiring".
> 
> ...



Notice how Butcher tends to respond. He starts it off by belittling the previous Member, I think he believes in his own mind that he is the ultimate authority on the subject and thinks he's doing us all a huge favor by blessing us with his profound insight, knowledge and experience. 

Here's a few examples of his condescending Babble… I.E. "Your a Real Piece of Work!” or, "Well, we now have another cherry Blaze King enthusiast new with wood stoves, cat or non-cat. Expert." or, "You obviously do not enjoy factual data." “King- Authur” and on, and on he rants and Belittles!…. Annoying isn’t it? 

You called him on quite a few very good points on your last post, especially the 1200F Catalytic light-off temperature, but I think your "wrestling with a pig in the mud" on this one Excal. This is a waste of your intelligence and time. Give him some credit though; He does try to dance around (Back-Peddle) on some of his incorrect facts, and stupid and damageing “green-wood” suggestions to test a combustor. Fortunately, for us he is making the case against himself, better than anybody else could ever make it against him. I think that this fact is becoming more and more clear to anyone who has been paying attention to this thread so far. I certainly would be happy to throw you an oar Excal, but I can see you don't need one, and besides I can think of a much better use for it. How about you Excal?:msp_rolleyes:


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## Highbeam (Nov 25, 2011)

I have been trying to ignore him but really he is an ass that is actually negatively contributing, that is, taking away from the thread. He is just trying to bully folks into complying with his (wrong)opinion. Is this pook? If your opinion doesn't stick the first time then why must you try and force it?


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## Haywire Haywood (Nov 25, 2011)

Chip_365 said:


> I've been using a Blaze King stove with a cat as my only heat source here in the Canadian north, for 7 months or more each year, for the last 6 years,. I also don't burn more than a couple of cords a season.



Trying to grasp this. You eat 1800sq ft for 7 months in negative temps on 2 cords of pine? :msp_scared: You must have one heck of a stove.

Ian


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## Chillybilly (Dec 6, 2011)

SierraWoodsman said:


> My Vote Is for a Well Designed Catalytic, such as a Blaze King. Reasons Why?... Longer Burntimes for one. Easily 12 hours even with pine. Very efficient operation & more "even" heat, you can turn down the thermostat and just keep the house cozy for long periods of time and still maintan efficency without a "smoldering fire". Both produce beautiful fires but I've noticed that my woodcutting partner uses almost twice the wood I do using his EPA certified Non-catalytic stove heating a similer sized house. Buying a new cat every 3 or 4 years costing close to $200 is the only downside I see. s[/url]



We've had a Blaze King Royal Heir catalytic for 16 years and I've finally replaced the catalyst this year. Burn clean dry wood, let it get hot once a day and DON'T ever handle the catalyst if you don't need to and it can last a long time. A factor that I've not seen anyone else mention here: we put i a new external chimney when we bought this stove 16 years ago and I've NEVER had to clean it. I check it twice a year and have never had a buildup. House is a four level split ~2400 sq ft. Raised four boys, so the doors and windows are not always closed in the house. We're in Minnesota. Burning mostly oak, usually go through 4-6 cords in a typical winter.


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## Chip_365 (Dec 6, 2011)

Good stove & good house insulation, good construction & orientation (some passive solar in spring if the sun is out)! Hot air rises too, all through the house but the down side of this vertical house is that I need scaffolding to reach areas for painting or renos & that part of my house completely sucks. My next house, if there there is one, will be a bungalow.

The stove isn't burning hot every day for 7 mths as on the warmer days around 0 C, the house just gets too warm if it the stove burns every day. Warmer days in spring & fall, even some winter days, I can go 2-4 days with only one hot load burned. I also don't always completely fill the stove for the same reason, the house just gets too warm. Just guesstimating 2 cords with all these factors considered, the size of my woodshed & how full or empty it is before & after heating season. I live off the grid & conservation is the main key to good energy efficiency. Conservation is now my habit vs. wasting energy just because I can or could & so I try not to have to waste any energy, especially energy that I have to cut, load, unload, split, stack, move, move again & load into the woodstove. I'm getting too old for wasting energy. I'd rather work smarter than harder & sometimes I even succeed. :smile2:


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## daleeper (Dec 7, 2011)

Chillybilly said:


> We've had a Blaze King Royal Heir catalytic for 16 years and I've finally replaced the catalyst this year. Burn clean dry wood, let it get hot once a day and DON'T ever handle the catalyst if you don't need to and it can last a long time. A factor that I've not seen anyone else mention here: we put i a new external chimney when we bought this stove 16 years ago and I've NEVER had to clean it. I check it twice a year and have never had a buildup. House is a four level split ~2400 sq ft. Raised four boys, so the doors and windows are not always closed in the house. We're in Minnesota. Burning mostly oak, usually go through 4-6 cords in a typical winter.



Hey, good to hear of someone else with a Royal Heir. There were two sizes of that stove made, plus an insert. Which one do you have? I'm guessing the 2100 based on the size of house you are heating. I purchased a used 2200, which is the smaller one two years ago, and am on the second season of burning with it, and like it real well. 

Purchasing used, I was afraid my cat would need replaced, but it seems to be working well. My bypass door does not seal as well as it probably should, but the gasses do appear to be going to the cat well enough, as the flue temps are low, no smoke out of chimney, and the cat temp gauge responds correctly.


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## sunfish (Dec 7, 2011)

Non-cat here. FS118CB Jotul. Love it!


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## CrappieKeith (Dec 7, 2011)

my my my ...boys will be boys. I doubt Logbutcher is Pook...I know Pook's Pook'ese and Logbutcher does not speak it...plus we surely would have seen some mention of his heat-a-lator and cat piss soaked saw dust for fuel.

It's been said before by another furnace rep...and I agree...most...I'll repeat most of the wood burners out there are pretty good at what they were designed for...however for someone to make a claim..."claim" ..."I get 40 hours of burn time on 5- 8" rounds 20" long heating a 3000 s/f home when it is 0 outside...makes me go back back to the physics of it all. Even kiln dried wood is only capable of making 12,000 btu's per lb. Given the heat load..like I said 2 months ago...foul.

Now to have a smaller home in a warmer climate you might get longer burn times but then your talking about a whole lot of smoldering...but then the poster making the claims is saying no smoke is coming out of the flue and there is no creosote build up.

Maybe I'm missing something...could be...wouldn't be the 1st time...sure it wouldn't be the last...

As to the OP gas vs cat...it's not just the unit...it's the entire system....appliance,flue,fuel,operator's ability to properly operate it.
You could have the best wood burner in the world,but if you do not take responsibility in wood dryness levels or put in the right flue to match that appliance or if you add too many 90's or too long of a horizontal run...we just has a customer do a 20 foot horizontal run with no rise... or ,or,or,or...yup my seal imitation...point is there are so many variables in burning wood....at the least the install and fuel should be spot on for your best chance at success.


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## Chillybilly (Dec 7, 2011)

daleeper said:


> Hey, good to hear of someone else with a Royal Heir. There were two sizes of that stove made, plus an insert. Which one do you have? I'm guessing the 2100 based on the size of house you are heating. I purchased a used 2200, which is the smaller one two years ago, and am on the second season of burning with it, and like it real well.
> 
> Purchasing used, I was afraid my cat would need replaced, but it seems to be working well. My bypass door does not seal as well as it probably should, but the gasses do appear to be going to the cat well enough, as the flue temps are low, no smoke out of chimney, and the cat temp gauge responds correctly.



You guessed right, we have the 2100. Super happy with it, don't see how it could be any better. It holds a fire for up to 20 hours and after 16 yrs, all I've done is replace the door gasket. This year I'm replacing the catalyst and the firebrick for the first time. 

After a phone conversation with a long time factory employee last year I bent the 'safety tab' that keeps one from completely closing the door during warmup. I always wondered why that was there, and when I asked him about it he told me basically it was one of those 'it seemed like a good idea at the time' type features 'suggested' by the testing labs. Really love the stove. 

Last year we bought a wood splitter after splitting all our wood with a maul for the last thirty years. My wife kind of decided I needed to not work quite so hard.  (At least at wood splitting) Can't say enough about how great this stove is though!


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## daleeper (Dec 7, 2011)

CrappieKeith said:


> my my my ...boys will be boys. I doubt Logbutcher is Pook...I know Pook's Pook'ese and Logbutcher does not speak it...plus we surely would have seen some mention of his heat-a-lator and cat piss soaked saw dust for fuel.
> 
> It's been said before by another furnace rep...and I agree...most...I'll repeat most of the wood burners out there are pretty good at what they were designed for...however for someone to make a claim..."claim" ..."I get 40 hours of burn time on 5- 8" rounds 20" long heating a 3000 s/f home when it is 0 outside...makes me go back back to the physics of it all. Even kiln dried wood is only capable of making 12,000 btu's per lb. Given the heat load..like I said 2 months ago...foul.
> 
> ...




Crappie, it could be what you missed is the fact that nobody made the claim "I get 40 hours of burn time on 5- 8" rounds 20" long heating a 3000 s/f home when it is 0 outside". Cats do not change physics, but they do work well. Add a thermostatic air control, and they work even better.

I do think you have a real valid point on it being an entire system. It is interesting to me that we North Americans seem to design and insulate home heating systems to a level that we can afford to heat, instead of designing it for maximum efficiency. I have heard of folks from Wisconsin, Missouri, Arkansas, and Texas all having the same heating/cooling costs. Think about what the heating/cooling cost of that Wisconsin home would be if built in Texas, I would think significantly less. If Chip_365's home only takes 2 cord of wood to heat, think how little wood it would take here in Missouri? 

Now, Chip_365, go measure that wood storage, so we know if it were 2 cord, we don't need to be stretching things too far, it's hard enough for non BK owners to believe how well they work.


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## CrappieKeith (Dec 8, 2011)

Now we are getting somewhere...so when does the 40 hr. burn time come into play...when it's 30 or 40 degrees outside and what size was the home...1000 s/f??????

I've made this point before...when talking about what your getting...it is better to know the heat load...you know...how much heat will a guy need. Also what temp does the home stay at 60-65-70-72...also what kind of wood is being burned.

Way to many variables to just make a blanket statement of I get 40 hrs...and that label...too funny.
Also..never said the BK's are not efficient.

So ...heading out on the ice this weekend....crappies & gills beware.


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