# Thinning bar oil in cold weather?



## ironwood (Oct 31, 2003)

I have used either 10w40 engine oil or 10w hydraulic oil to thin the bar oil in cold weather. What do you guys use?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 31, 2003)

I use bar oil.
The saw is only cold more a couple minutes, so at that point thinner oils would work poorly. That said, a lot of guys say you can run just about anything without problems.
I just know cutting attachments are expensive and bar oil is cheap.


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## SilverBlue (Oct 31, 2003)

Engine oil contains toxic additives, so why are you hurting the environment? There’s enough oil lost on our roads, we don't need more in our woods. 

Bar oil comes in three grades anyways, light medium and heavy.


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## Curtis James (Oct 31, 2003)

i've never even thought or heard of thinning. it takes only a few extra seconds to fill. patience.


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## Ax-man (Oct 31, 2003)

I put my oil container in the cab of the truck right next to the heater on the floorboard. When you get to the job it pours just like it does in summer. 

I have heard of people using diesel fuel to thin bar oil, that idea has no appeal to me though.


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## kurtztree (Oct 31, 2003)

they make winter grade and summer grade oil.


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## preach it (Nov 1, 2003)

We can't get winter grade here. So, I thin it out with kerosene until it is the vicosity that I want. I was cutting large cottonwoods today. It was 15-20F degrees here. The summer grade oil was way too thick, the oil pump in the saw will wear or break in time using oil too thick. Using kerosene the bar oil is thinner but it keeps its tackiness. It works for me.


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## Dan F (Nov 1, 2003)

I can't believe you can't get winter oil in ND... Go to your local Stihl dealer and have them order you a case. If they can't do it, don't go back.

The Stihl winter oil comes in a blue jug, unless they have changed colors on me in the last couple of years...


Dan


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## ironwood (Nov 1, 2003)

I bought a couple of cases of bar and chain oil made by Alco on sale for about $2.50 a gallon. Didn't say what grade is is, but can hardly pour it out of the jug when cold. Winter grade has to be thinned down somehow by the companies who offer it, so I assume they add a lighter oil. Will try to find out what they use. Yeah, organic oil would be better for the environment and I think it is about $20 a gallon.


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

If you can not order winter grade from your dealer then file a complain with Stihl or whoever on the web and they will notify the distributor for your area.if you use Kerosene then plan on replacing plastic parts in your oil system.


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

Brian kerosene is an oil distillate, kerosene is also contaminated with toxic substances unless you can find pure kerosene –which is rare and I doubt any chainsaw operator will look for. Now before I have to squirl slap you… do some research on toxic substances in kerosene.


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## Stumper (Nov 1, 2003)

FWIW, My Husky manual recommends using kerosene as lube thinner. So SB , you are either full of beans on this or need to throw all that Stihl junk away and buy orange fantastic plastic.

Oops! After posting I had second thoughts and had to go check. The Husky manual I have doesn't mention kreosene, It is in a John Deere (Echo years) Manual, a Poulan Manual and in the Chainsaw Service Manual (the big'n published by Clymer)


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

So you haven't done any research huh?
Well no comment's from the peanut gallery before you do the work.


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## rborist1 (Nov 1, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 1, 2003)

Silver Blue,

In all fairness, you made the point about kerosene damaging saw parts. You're the one who should be able to back up what you say with documentation. That's how discussions work. 

So, if you've done the research, I'd love to read whatever you could link for me.

I hear a lot of chatter about how fragile tree tools are. Come on, they're just plastic and metal. 

Toxic stuff in kerosene? What's the LD50? 

This search just took me about twenty seconds:

http://www.spectro-oils.com/msds-sx.htm

Toxic additives to motor oil? At what level is there toxicity?

Kero, or diesel in a pinch, works for thinning.

Tom


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

Tom, in all fairness most people don't know what is in a product that they use-but they blindly recommend such with ignorance. Kerosene is not just kerosene, it's thinned with solvents. And motor oil is not just oil either, it contains a fair percentage of additives. You want the LD50 for which chemical in kerosene? Chances are high that studies are not available.

Now many here claim that they care about trees (which goes hand in hand with the environment they grow in). Now let’s see how well they do.

A few keywords:
Volatile organic compounds
Naphtha
Benzene


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 1, 2003)

SB,

Just as I hit the "Submit Button" for my above post I thought, I wonder how long it would take to get an LD50 for kero. With a few keystrokes and about twenty seconds I was back here to post the thread with the MSDS for kero. Sure enough, there's an LD50 for humans, and rabbits. Now if I can figure out what the bunnies are doing with kero...[Actually, I do know]

The object of my post isn't to get smarmy or get into a flame war. When a good dialog gets going, everyone should be able to back up what they say with documentation if they say something as a fact. Otherwise, own it. Say that you think, feel, have been told, understand, etc. Don't get your slip ruffled, educate us. What's going on with kero that we should be aware of?

Tom


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

Take the peanuts out of your ears Brian, as posted above, it's the solvents. What do you think kerosene is thinned with alcohol?


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## Stumper (Nov 1, 2003)

SB, Come on man-give us a source for your claim. I don't know where this is coming from. Kerosene IS A SOLVENT. Most petroleum distillates are. 90 wt EP gear lube is a solvent for asphalt. So are all of the progressively lighter distillates. I don't find it inconceivable that some very light distillates are added to heavier base stocks to come up with a standardized grade of kerosene but what is your evidence and, more importantly, what does it matter? Gasoline is pretty nasty but occassional skin contact is not a big health risk. Much less so with Varsol or mineral spirits. Kerosene has long been used topically to treat certain skin disorders. What is the big deal?


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

Geez Stumper, are you talking about the rare pure grade kerosene or the typical marketed kerosene with additives (read impurities to those with dysfunctional squirl syndrome). Which are we referring to-Naphtha? Benzene? Or a whole list of Volatile Organic Compounds?

Not only are certain additives found in “kerosene” toxic, they also degrade plastic parts. 
What source do you want? I have scientific papers with abstracts, how many sources would you like me to pull?

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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

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And who do I send the bill to?
Rob.


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## Stumper (Nov 1, 2003)

Nice cut and paste. Okay I gather you are claiming that Naptha, Benzene and V.O.C.s are in common kerosene. What is your source for that claim and what are the percentages? Since Diesel and fuel oil are also recommended thinning agents what nasties are in them?

Considering the ammount of spilled fuel and unburned fuel exiting the exhaust we are exposed to, just how significant is our bar lube thinning agent exposure?


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## SilverBlue (Nov 1, 2003)

We also have a few thousand more "cut and paste" references within our database.
Justin I don't have the resources to fund your enquiry. Also it's unrealistic to do a study on chainsaw users. Besides what would you do with (or care) about the outcome?


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## Stumper (Nov 2, 2003)

I'm not slamming you for cutting and pasting. I thought it was cute that you filled a couple of boxes after you were called on for documentation. It seems like you could at least furnish one source for your claim that kerosene has nasty stuff in it. My other questions are more rhetorical in nature. I don't expect you to have all THAT info but I do think that maybe we need a little perspective. Just how many V.O.C.s can the fuel for non catalytic lamps and incompletely combusting catalytic space heaters have in our litigous society? If the fumes from the lamp aren't going to kill you in a conclusive manner how much danger is posed by 10% of your bar lube of which 99.5% of (according to Tom's questionable research source) goes somewhere other than on you?:angel:


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## SilverBlue (Nov 2, 2003)

Brian, who is dragging this thread off topic? Hell not you. Now go back to gathering your peanuts, it's going to be a long cold winter.
Ironwood try some canola oil commonly found at any grocery store. It’s food grade oil and does not contain toxic chemicals of which any responsible arborist or chainsaw operator would recommend using.


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## ironwood (Nov 2, 2003)

Thanks guys...I'll try kerosene. It has to be hard on the oiling system and lack of oil to the B&C if the viscosity is too thick before things get warmed up for the "first cut".


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## ironwood (Nov 2, 2003)

Rob...Since it's only 45deg. here now, I put some canola oil in the freezer. It does get thicker when cooled down, as kerosene would probably not. Canola might be an alternative. Thanks.


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## Stumper (Nov 2, 2003)

Ironwood, I think that Rob meant for you to use straight canola oil. It does work pretty well and doesn't get as thick as summer bar oil down to 15*F-Below that I haven't tried it.


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## Stumper (Nov 2, 2003)

Rob, Start looking. You can find claims for all sorts of nasty stuff in food grade vegetable oils. You see, the big corporations are trying to poison us. All in the interest of profits they will kill all of their customers so that they have no one left to sell to.


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## SilverBlue (Nov 2, 2003)

Aw gee wiz Justin Cant you do it? I'm too busy working on this peanut oil gas substitute!


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## Stumper (Nov 2, 2003)

Naw... 'cause first I would have to care. 

I know how to avoid cancer. -Don't eat, drink or breathe anything. That is 100% guaranteed to prevent death by cancer but it sure shortens and takes the fun out of life. Of course I do care about toxic chemicals and things that are demonstrably bad for me that I can easily avoid, but I can't control everything and worrying about it isn't healthy.


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## SilverBlue (Nov 2, 2003)

Oh sure Justin,,, it's always ME ME ME isn't it? What about the wild life? No more Fries and chips for you then! And where did Rocky go? Brian don't make me come down there ( January 16 to Feb 16) to kick your butt!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 2, 2003)

Just as long as you guy'ses statistical proofs doesn't include lab rats i'll listen.

Cuz'i have statistical proof that being a lab rat alone shortens your life span; thereby invalidating many previous theories, based on such results as life span.....?


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## Dan F (Nov 9, 2003)

*Back to thinning....*

I know it's late in the discussion, but I'll throw this out whether or not it's still relevant.... 

From the Oregon _Maintenance and Safety Manual_ that I just picked up at the local Stihl dealer the other day, page 89.

Page titled "Cutting in Cold Weather", 
"*OIL*-use a lighter weight of bar-chain oil, or dilute bar-chain oil 25 percent with clean kerosene or diesel oil. Use twice as much of this diluted oil during operation, and be certain your chain is recieving oil from the saw."

So it sounds like (according to Oregon, anyway) that diluting is fine, but you probably need an adjustable oiler on the saw....


Dan


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## Newfie (Nov 9, 2003)

*"You can find claims for all sorts of nasty stuff in food grade vegetable oils. You see, the big corporations are trying to poison us. All in the interest of profits they will kill all of their customers so that they have no one left to sell to."* 

Careful Justin, you started channeling Oakwilt for a minute. 


I just use lo temp bar oil. I can't imagine working around the stink of diesel or kerosene slinging off the bar.


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## xander9727 (Nov 9, 2003)

I guess I'll have to stop using kerosene to kill intestinal parasites.

Where (outside of a lab) would one go to find "pure kerosene"?

How (without playing blind cut and paste) is "pure kerosene" different than retail kerosene?

Is lighting the surrounding woods on fire to raise the outside temp an acceptable solution to cold weather cuttin'?

If I insult Rocky 6 or 8 times will it help him to see things my way?

Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all"?


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## geofore (Nov 9, 2003)

*kerosene*

If it's the smell you're after, buy that scented lamp oil at the dollar store, you can get all the flavors your wife loves. Don't tell her it's for the saws.


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## ironwood (Nov 11, 2003)

Don't use canola oil ! ! ! It solidified to candle wax in the "freezer experiment". I vote for kerosene.


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## hillbilly (Nov 11, 2003)

Hmmm...
Aren't you using vegetable bar oil ?
Around here it is the most common bar oil available.
It can get down to -30 deg. celsius (-20 Fahrenheit)
occasionally during winter, it thickens, but is definately
useable.
It costs about $3.5 per liter.

http://utomhus.husqvarna.se/node1573.asp?cid=205


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## ironwood (Nov 11, 2003)

At $3.25 USD for 1 liter, that would be about $13.25 for a gallon here plus shipping.


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## Stumper (Nov 11, 2003)

I think he meant $3.25 Canadian. Isn't that something like 12 and 1/2 cents U.S.?


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## Tree Machine (Nov 18, 2003)

Here's a few questions to compliment Ironwood's non-field, though conclusive, freezing test of canola oil. 

I don't have a _Handbook of Chemistry and Physics_ anywhere near, so I can't use an exact figure on the freezing point of VO (veggie oil). We would first want to know the 'freezing point'. That's the temp where it changes from a liquid to a solid... but 'practically speaking', it _doesn't_ change to a solid, not for a few more drop in degrees. It changes from liquid into a kind of gelacious slurry, but it will still flow through an oil pump. NO THINNING NECESSARY.

The oil temperature at which a human could no longer suck the frozen slurry up into a regular drinking straw, now THAT is what we practical field guys should consider the true freezing point of canola.

Let's try to rough guestimate this, based on nothing more than I've run VO as my bar lube for the last two Winters (as well as all the other seasons): Let's say VO slurries at 20 degrees, F. It becomes unsuckable at 15. This means, using VO, you're good-to-go as long as the temps are in the mid teens or better. 

So what happens when you just gotta go do a tree when it's 5 degrees out? How bout firing the saw up and understand that the temperature of the oil only needs to rise a mere 10 degrees or so for the oil to reach a temp where it will flow. The question now becomes, "How long does it take for the internal parts of a chain saw to rise 10 degrees?". Pretty quick, I would speculate.

Another interesting fact about VO, is that the viscosity from summer temps, all the way down to its freezing point, there is very little change in the viscosity. Viscosity changes right at the freezing point, but it'll still flow.

Pouring it from a jug while frozen is the other issue. I use a gallon jug with a spout top from a gear oil bottle in place of the regular cap. Cut the cone spout so the opening is about as big as it can be. Invert and squeeze the bottle. Even though 'frozen' VO is not technically liquid, you can 'make' it flow down into the teens. As soon as it hits the inside of a warm saw, it's liquid.

Ironwood, thanks for the Freezer experiment. I imagine canola oil, at zero degrees F. would firm up like candle wax. Maybe instead of, Don't use Canola oil!!!! you could maybe say, "Don't use your saws outside when it's ZERO DEGREES!!!! The environment thanks you. -TM-


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## ironwood (Nov 26, 2003)

Tree Machine...I guess the freezer test would be an extreme, but I wouldn't want to use canola oil. How about ATF trans. oil, since it isn't petroleum base and has a good low temp. viscosity? It used to be made out of whale blubber, but don't know what the properties are now. Newfie...will get some winter grade when I use up the 15 gal. of regular 30w B&R oil. The plastic jugs are starting to crack and leak, so transfering to other jugs. Bummer...


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## Dobber (Nov 26, 2003)

*winter bar oil*

As others have said there is winter baroil out there, as for using engine oil or any other oil based fuels that have additives that might harm your oil pump I would try Vegitable or peanut oil, both are cheap as hell everyone has some in their kitchen and will not harm your saw.


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## Blackcloud (Nov 26, 2003)

ironwood-I was thinking the same as you ... what about using tranny fluid?


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## MAGDELANA (Jan 9, 2022)

My mech at Sthil recommends diesel.


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