# Has anybody ever made it who did not come up "through the ranks"?



## Plasmech (Oct 20, 2009)

When I say come up through the ranks I mean say doing a groundiship at Davey or whatever, then worked as a paid climber, then gone on your own.

I would imagine the above has a much higher success rate and a lower blood loss rate.

Anybody been able to do it?


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## pdqdl (Oct 20, 2009)

I never worked for another tree company, and I have never had any training. When I started climbing, I went out and bought an old used saddle & spurs, a new twist rope, and started up the tree with my only chainsaw: a Pro-Mac 10-10s [closely related to an 18" boat anchor]. I used that same heavy chainsaw for about 5 years.

I am completely self taught with respect to trees, chainsaws, and ropes, notwithstanding all the skilled people I have watched and the information that I have diligently watched for.

On the other hand, I am a really bright person that has the unusual ability to read something and understand the material so well that I can do the job. And I have taken some unbelievable risks, and had some perilous experiences. Many situations that I survived or "got out of" were only because of dumb luck.


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## tree md (Oct 20, 2009)

I didn't really have much of a "groundiship". I started out with a guy who let me climb because I bugged the crap out of him. He let me set ropes in trees and do light pruning at his discretion. He let me bring a chainsaw up with me about the first month I worked for him. I still did ground work though. That was the deal. He would let me climb but I would still have to do the ground work. He did all the hard stuff in the tree but by the first year I was doing some pretty technical removals. I had saw skills before I went to work for him though. I wouldn't cut a newbie loose in a tree with a chainsaw until he proved to me he had saw skills by watching him cut on the ground. Some of the climbers I have started have been relegated to a hand saw for more than a month. Just depends on their saw skills and aptitude.


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## arbor pro (Oct 21, 2009)

I started up straight out of school with my landscape design and arboriculture degree. I had worked for a landscaping company previously and trimmed trees and shrubs on occasion but nothing real big. Learning the business end of things was the toughest - the first 3 years in particular. I had to work a night job to pay the bills and then did tree work and landscaping during the day. 3-4 hours of sleep per night for about 2 years straight. I don't know how I managed to think clearly enough to keep from killing myself.

I owe a lot to my former college mentor, John Ball, who really went above and beyond to help me get the ball rolling. Amazing guy. Actually, a number of prominent community members got behind me and helped spread the word about my business. Connections and networking really make a big difference in this business!


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## Plasmech (Oct 21, 2009)

tree md said:


> I didn't really have much of a "groundiship". I started out with a guy who let me climb because I bugged the crap out of him. He let me set ropes in trees and do light pruning at his discretion. He let me bring a chainsaw up with me about the first month I worked for him. I still did ground work though. That was the deal. He would let me climb but I would still have to do the ground work. He did all the hard stuff in the tree but by the first year I was doing some pretty technical removals. I had saw skills before I went to work for him though. I wouldn't cut a newbie loose in a tree with a chainsaw until he proved to me he had saw skills by watching him cut on the ground. Some of the climbers I have started have been relegated to a hand saw for more than a month. Just depends on their saw skills and aptitude.



Hey MD, do you ever run into that John Nosak guy?


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## pdqdl (Oct 21, 2009)

It sounds like you had a clear goal, and worked diligently to get there. Kudo's!

I am a bit confused about your startup. Were those first two years filled with low sales, unprofitable work, or were you just trying to pay for equipment investment? [yes, I know it was a combination of all of the above, but perhaps you will share some of the details]


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## arbor pro (Oct 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> It sounds like you had a clear goal, and worked diligently to get there. Kudo's!
> 
> I am a bit confused about your startup. Were those first two years filled with low sales, unprofitable work, or were you just trying to pay for equipment investment? [yes, I know it was a combination of all of the above, but perhaps you will share some of the details]



In the fall of my last year of college, a classmate and I approached our arboriculture professor, John Ball, about helping us to pick out some basic tree care equipment (climbing gear, small saws, rigging stuff) so that we could make a few bucks on the side while finishing up school and looking for jobs once we graduate. John knew about a city forester who had his own part-time tree service for sale and hooked us up with him. We bought him out and went to work with his older yet reliable bucket truck, full setup of saws and rigging gear and his client list. It cost us something like $10 or $15k at the time (I can't remember for sure).

It kept us busy enough during the school year that we decided to run it full time once we graduated that next spring. That's when reality set in and we had to start repaying school loans on top of paying business expenses and paying ourselves a salary. We just didn't have enough experience in running a business to understand all the expenses associated with a tree service and we were still trying to build a customer base so we could charge what we needed to charge in order to make a living at it. As it was, we were each taking a salary of about $5k that first year after business expenses were paid. Not much to live off of so we each took night jobs at a manufacturing plant and continued to work days doing the tree service thing. 

It didn't take working two jobs for long before i decided that the only way we were going to break out and make a go at things was to expand into landscaping. My partner and I each had landscape design degrees as well as arboriculture backgrounds so, to me, it just made sense. After getting a couple of big landscaping jobs under our belts, things took off and we were busy. After two years of the night job thing, I said 'enough' and went back to working full time with the landscaping part of the business while my partner ran the tree service.

Long story short, the landscaping and tree work together got to be more work than my partner had wanted to take on and he left the business. I took it over and bought out a second tree service which gave me more clientel and a bit more equipment to work with. The previous owner was well-connected in the community so I was really buying his name moreso than his equipment. I hired an arborist to run the tree service crew while I still bid the jobs for him and did all the business end of things along with the landscaping.

All this happened in the course of about 3 years. That's how long it took to go from an unknown newcomer in the business to someone with business name recognition within the community. It was a very long 3 years of working 20 hour days with little or no pay to show for it because I put every cent possible back into building the business.

By year 5, things were looking pretty sweet. The tree service was traveling a tri-state area doing residential and utility work and had even gotten in on a huge land reclamation project. The landscaping service was doing a lot of high-end residential work and starting to bring in some serious cash. That's when I made the decision to sell the tree service to my foreman and invest more money into the landscaping company as that's where I saw a real future as the city I was working in was expanding rapidly and had a real need for a good landscaping company.

The landscaping company did well and I was looking to expand into building a large 16-acre garden center to the point that I had secured part put not all of the funding to do so. The process of securing the rest of the funding drug on for over a year and, eventually, I got burnt out on the idea of owning and operating a garden center and I got tired of the landscaping thing as a whole so I sold the company and went back to school for my masters in landscape architecture with the intention of getting a job teaching at a university. 

That didn't quite pan out as planned (good think in hind sight) and now I do tree work part-time along with my full-time job which is a good one. I'd love to do tree work full time but my community is overwhelmed with too many tree services as it is. I'm lucky to make a go at it part time this year with so much competition but I plan on hanging around for a few more years...

There you have it. More history on me than you really wanted.


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## pdqdl (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks. 

Now I know who to call for support when the tree guys start picking on the land-scrapers again.


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## arbor pro (Oct 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Now I know who to call for support when the tree guys start picking on the land-scrapers again.



Anytime. There certainly are some landscapers who really don't know how to properly prune trees and shrubs. Of course, there are some tree guys who don't know who to do it right either. From a former landscaper's perspective, i can tell you that I just shake my head when i see tree guys dabbling in landscaping when they know nothing about proper shrub selection or good landscape design. 

The 'have wheelbarrow and shovel so I'm a landscaper' mentality is just as prevalent as the 'have chainsaw so I'm an arborist' mentality. Nothing wrong with doing both IF you actually learn about what you're doing rather than just going out and doing.


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## blueatlascedar (Oct 21, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> When I say come up through the ranks I mean say doing a groundiship at Davey or whatever, then worked as a paid climber, then gone on your own.
> 
> I would imagine the above has a much higher success rate and a lower blood loss rate.
> 
> Anybody been able to do it?



I started as a groundman and apprentice climber for the largest tree service in my area. For the next 2.5 years I was a foreman of the public utilities division doing the ROW work, phone and electric clearing. I then worked strictly in electric clearance for a multi state company. I then broke out on my own starting with just a pick up, climbing gear and 2 saws. One to trim, and the other for ground work. The following year I bought a one ton dump truck and more saws and gear. The beginning of the 3rd year I bought a used Aspludhn tree truck and old chipper, then a f-600 with a hydr, lift gate. After 5 years, I had 2 crews working every available day and in the 6th year added a landscaping crew and a lawn service crew. Continued like that for 3 years and the headaches and over head forced me to scale back to just the tree work which yielded the best revenue anyways. I continued on for 20+ years till a busted up spine forced me to sell the biz and change gears completely. I want to note I had no private financing and started slow with buying equipment. I did later open a biz line of credit at my bank once things broke into 6 figures a year in grossing. It can work with patience and some common sense and a good economy. I started my own in 1983 which was a lousy economy for those of you who remember. Hence is why I stacked and hauled brush for close to 2 years.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 21, 2009)

Nosak..........lol.....but I'm sure osha has shut him down by now..


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## Plasmech (Oct 21, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> Nosak..........lol.....but I'm sure osha has shut him down by now..



Dude is a horse of a different color. Very successful though...


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## tree md (Oct 21, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Hey MD, do you ever run into that John Nosak guy?



Haven't met him personally Plas but have run into his crew at a popular local breakfast spot. We always smile and nod when we meet but pretty much keep to ourselves. I did a crane job right next door to where his crew was using the crane as well. I had my tree done before they made two picks. 

They seem to be pretty nice guys. One of the guys That takes firewood from me gets wood from Nosak as well and says he's really a pretty nice guy in person.

And he is still in business.


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## tree md (Oct 21, 2009)

Just in case you missed it in the music thread Plas... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1iR2Wi3u5o


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## BlackenedTimber (Oct 21, 2009)

I guess the first tree-related job I had was working for a local logger in the afternoons and evenings splitting firewood... with an 8-lb maul. After a while, I started running a saw for him, and he taught me how to fell, buck, skid, grade, and sell timber. After about a year with him, I went to work for an old Austrian dude that really knew his stuff. He hated everyone, except me... he was a miserable human being in general. I ran a saw for him, a big Husky (I'm a Stihl guy... does a Husky 1080 make sense?), felling timber, for about a year. After he died, there was no one to take over for him, and his gear was siezed as part of his estate and sold off. 

I was cutting firewood, which I was harvesting off the back acreage at my dad's farm, when people started stopping and asking if I was selling firewood. I wasn't, just cutting and splitting for personal use. After the 10th or 12th person stopped and asked, I was in the firewood business. As my name got spread around town, people started asking me if I could remove their trees. I was good with a saw on the ground, and I took on several jobs that I could accomplish easily from the ground. After a while, people started calling wanting to know if I climbed. I was in the process of explaining to one woman that I didn't climb, when my dad snatched the phone out of my hand, and yelled "Hell yeah he climbs, he'll be by Friday!" and hung up on the woman.

My dad was in the line construction biz for 42 years, and immediately took to teaching me the ins and outs of a belt and hooks. Granted, in hindsight, he tought me just enough to be dangerous, as linework and arboriculture are two completely different things.

I started getting more work. I also took a job at the local Agway, where the Nursery Manager was a former tree guy, had his own business back in the day. HE took to teaching me the latin names of most of the Northeast Species (alot of which I have since forgot) and showed me how to climb with ropes, and knots and hitches, and alot of other sacred tree knowledge. I was also handing out business cards like crazy to all the rich people who came up from NYC to spend the weekends in the Adairondacks. The business grew quickly from an old Ford Ranger and a Poulan Pro (it hurts to even mention it...) into several trucks and pieces of equipment, and all the Stihl saws, ropes, rigging gear, and everything else to support the biz.

So to answer your question after all of that blabbering, I dont think so. I think it is valuable to know all aspects of the business for several reasons, and one fo the best ways to gain that experience is from starting at the bottom.

Sorry for the disertation,

T


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## clearance (Oct 21, 2009)

Thats a great post Blackened.


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## BlackenedTimber (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks Clearance.

Sometimes I get on here, and dont realize that I have typed a novel...


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## outofmytree (Oct 22, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> When I say come up through the ranks I mean say doing a groundiship at Davey or whatever, then worked as a paid climber, then gone on your own.
> 
> I would imagine the above has a much higher success rate and a lower blood loss rate.
> 
> Anybody been able to do it?



I started out aged 15, as an apprentice sheetmetalworker. After 6 years of that I knew I was never going to work in a factory again. Tried on a few hats over the years and although I had some basic chainsaw skills and a good head for heights I essentially started my tree business from scratch. Even though the business came with basic training and 1st class back up I had to make all the usual mistakes in order to learn from them. Luckily I am a quick study! 

I think if you can acknowledge that you don't know everything than it is possible to learn from almost everyone you talk to. I know I have picked a few great ideas from this forum.

When I hire new hands now, I don't care what they know. What is most important to me is how well they listen. If they keep their ears open and get on with the job then I pay for any tree related education they need.


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## pdqdl (Oct 22, 2009)

arbor pro said:


> Anytime. There certainly are some landscapers who really don't know how to properly prune trees and shrubs. Of course, there are some tree guys who don't know who to do it right either. From a former landscaper's perspective, i can tell you that I just shake my head when i see tree guys dabbling in landscaping when they know nothing about proper shrub selection or good landscape design.
> 
> The 'have wheelbarrow and shovel so I'm a landscaper' mentality is just as prevalent as the 'have chainsaw so I'm an arborist' mentality. Nothing wrong with doing both IF you actually learn about what you're doing rather than just going out and doing.



That is certainly true, and I am competing with all of them. 

At least the landscapers don't often kill themselves by falling off the jobsite or bleeding out from their shovel injuries. They certainly don't know how to do any heavy rigging.


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## tree MDS (Oct 23, 2009)

tree md said:


> Haven't met him personally Plas but have run into his crew at a popular local breakfast spot. We always smile and nod when we meet but pretty much keep to ourselves. I did a crane job right next door to where his crew was using the crane as well. I had my tree done before they made two picks.
> 
> They seem to be pretty nice guys. One of the guys That takes firewood from me gets wood from Nosak as well and says he's really a pretty nice guy in person.
> 
> And he is still in business.



Nice! Hey md, is Gerome still with the old sack??

BTW: nice to see you around again! I was wondering where you been. Just busy squirreling away nuts I suppose? Anyways  man!


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## tree md (Oct 23, 2009)

I really don't know who is working with him now, just that he is still in business. Been a slow Summer here. I did about a third of the work I did the previous year for much less money. Competition is tight here and prices are rock bottom. Had one guy bid ahead of me on a job to pick 2 trees over a house for $1100. My jaw dropped when I heard that.

Haven't been on in awhile because my computer was fried. I finally got it up and running again.

Good to hear from you bud.


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## tree MDS (Oct 23, 2009)

tree md said:


> I really don't know who is working with him now, just that he is still in business. Been a slow Summer here. I did about a third of the work I did the previous year for much less money. Competition is tight here and prices are rock bottom. Had one guy bid ahead of me on a job to pick 2 trees over a house for $1100. My jaw dropped when I heard that.
> 
> Haven't been on in awhile because my computer was fried. I finally got it up and running again.
> 
> Good to hear from you bud.



Likewise! 

Dont feel bad, this year sucked here too - at least it looks like I'll make it through the recession...that is if it ever ends for working people that is! One of the biggest PITA with the recession for me is that my thing was finally starting to take off after all the years, sales up 40% last year - now this year? I dont where I stand anymore. getting through though, like I said.


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## defensiblespace (Oct 23, 2009)

I wouldn't say I've made it yet, but I am seeing improvements in my business. I got my intro to chainsaws about 15 years ago when I worked trail crew at a ski area. They needed some trails cut that year, so they taught me how to run a saw and do a plunge or bore cut, gave me a safety lesson, chaps and a helmet and sent me out into the woods. I definately learned from my mistakes. I got several saws pinched, but got better every day. I then did some tree removal for another ski area on the east coast after the big ice storm of 97. The trees were all bent over because of the ice and loaded in all kinds of ugly situations. I saw several trees snap and barber chair on other guys, but managed to stay safe and efficient. I moved to CA about 10 years ago and heard about defensible space some time after that. I decided that was an easy thing to get into. I started off with a saw and a truck and now have a Dodge 2500 diesel with a dumping trailer, 3 saws, an atv that we use as a skidder, a pole saw and lots of landscaping equipment as well. I am still waiting tables a few nights a week to pay the bills. A lot of my money goes towards licensing, insurance, education and new equipment right now. I passed my contractor's license last year and am taking my arborist exam in less than a month. The biggest problem here is the competition. With the economy being down, everybody with a truck and a saw is now trying to cut trees down to make a buck. That is why I am investing in education so that I can hopefully pull ahead of a good part of my competition. I just invested in some climbing gear as well and will spend the next several months learning to climb before I bring a saw into a tree. Our other problem here is that we are seasonal. We spent almost 2k on an insurance policy, yet we only are able to work about 6 months out of the year. I took on a business partner last year who has a degree in forestry. We split everyting down the middle. He has been a huge help and has relieved a lot of the stress of trying to figure out the business by myself. The business aspect has been the hardest part, but that gets easier over time.


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## Mr. Woods (Nov 7, 2009)

*No apology needed*

No need to apologize for running on about yourselves. The human experience is as valuable as the technical advice. I just found this site yesterday while considering if I should get into this business at age 41. 
Thanks to all of you for sharing.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 7, 2009)

Mr. Bush said:


> No need to apologize for running on about yourselves. The human experience is as valuable as the technical advice. I just found this site yesterday while considering if I should get into this business at age 41.
> Thanks to all of you for sharing.



My pops ended about 30 years at the plant at age 47, and he began a tree and landscaping business. He was doing a lot of property management for a few years, and he landed a govt. contract where he has to cut through the Ozark Mountains for several miles to make a scenic trail with all of the seats, bridges, and viewing decks. This job is estimated to take several years, and he is likely to get hired to do the maintainance on it after that.

He's got a lot of saws and heavy equipment after doing this for about 5 years now. The guy is on a healthy diet and has stayed active all of his life with activities like hunting, fishing, and work projects around his homes. For all of the years I lived with him, we were constantly clearing properties of his, so this stuff wasn't exactly new to him. The thing is that he doesn't do any of the climbing. He can subcontract someone for that or rent a lift.


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## treemandan (Nov 7, 2009)

tree md said:


> Just in case you missed it in the music thread Plas...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1iR2Wi3u5o



Yes, yes it is. Oh my God its a long way.


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## B-Edwards (Nov 7, 2009)

I started as a groundsman for Asplundh at $5 an hour doing R/W and I was happy to have the job. Things were different than they are now. Asplundh lost the contract and I stayed with the new company then they lost the contract and I stayed with the new company again. The fellow who owned the last company was envoled (and I think still is) with ISA. I got my cert before I went on my own and it helped me greatly when I started on my own. I am currently closing the tree biz but it has to do with health instead of failing as almost 2 years after my heart attack the phone is still ringing and I havent advertised ANY in 10 years. I just cant take the stress anymore. But to answer your question yes I know one man who didnt start at the bottom , he married the owners daughter and started at the top and has grown the company to 3 times it's original size , maybe larger. I wont say his name because I am positive some of you know him but again to answer your question,, yeah some have made it who didnt start at the bottom.


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## treemandan (Nov 7, 2009)

Mr. Bush said:


> No need to apologize for running on about yourselves. The human experience is as valuable as the technical advice. I just found this site yesterday while considering if I should get into this business at age 41.
> Thanks to all of you for sharing.



Well I guess since the President thing is over you might as well become a treeman like the rest of us Mr. Bush

No, just joking but for the first post you made a good one.


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## B-Edwards (Nov 7, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yes, yes it is. Oh my God its a long way.



This band had a version of that song also, I couldnt find it  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzmzQW5ptho


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 7, 2009)

When I was a kid I would split firewood and drop trees with my dad. I went to school for environmental and forest biology. I ran an environmental center and aquarium after graduating but it changed hands and I was out of a job. So I started working for a tree service. People began asking me to do little jobs and the jobs got bigger and bigger. I taught myself to climb with some pointers from my foreman. I did some climbing at work but mostly did evening and weekend jobs. I bought a DR Chipper on my credit card and quickly outgrew that. Got a nice 6" vermeer which I wrecked about 6 months later and then got a BC1000. Which I still have. Bought my F-450 while I was working for the other company. Eventually I quit and went full time on my own. It's been growing since then. So I definately started at the bottom..... Mike


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## treemandan (Nov 7, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> I guess the first tree-related job I had was working for a local logger in the afternoons and evenings splitting firewood... with an 8-lb maul. After a while, I started running a saw for him, and he taught me how to fell, buck, skid, grade, and sell timber. After about a year with him, I went to work for an old Austrian dude that really knew his stuff. He hated everyone, except me... he was a miserable human being in general. I ran a saw for him, a big Husky (I'm a Stihl guy... does a Husky 1080 make sense?), felling timber, for about a year. After he died, there was no one to take over for him, and his gear was siezed as part of his estate and sold off.
> 
> I was cutting firewood, which I was harvesting off the back acreage at my dad's farm, when people started stopping and asking if I was selling firewood. I wasn't, just cutting and splitting for personal use. After the 10th or 12th person stopped and asked, I was in the firewood business. As my name got spread around town, people started asking me if I could remove their trees. I was good with a saw on the ground, and I took on several jobs that I could accomplish easily from the ground. After a while, people started calling wanting to know if I climbed. I was in the process of explaining to one woman that I didn't climb, when my dad snatched the phone out of my hand, and yelled "Hell yeah he climbs, he'll be by Friday!" and hung up on the woman.
> 
> ...



THANKS DAD! 

I haven't read anything this good in years.


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## TreEmergencyB (Nov 7, 2009)

i guess i havnt really made it yet...i dont own my own biz yet...

i started at age 19 dragging brush and loading logs...23 now still dragging brush but alot more climbing and cutting now.


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## treemandan (Nov 7, 2009)

TreEmergencyB said:


> i guess i havnt really made it yet...i dont own my own biz yet...
> 
> i started at age 19 dragging brush and loading logs...23 now still dragging brush but alot more climbing and cutting now.



you are on the road to fame and fortune... if you quit right now and go into high finance that is.

I come out the tree, I grab a drink, get the saw dust out my underpanties and start moving debris.


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## TreEmergencyB (Nov 7, 2009)

treemandan said:


> you are on the road to fame and fortune... if you quit right now and go into high finance that is.
> 
> I come out the tree, I grab a drink, get the saw dust out my underpanties and start moving debris.



i know it sucks right...o well cleaning up part of the job as well, if i could i would quit climbing (even though i love it) to cut timber, nothing better then droppin a tree cut it to size and let the machines take over....


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## Treehound (Nov 8, 2009)

I got my start by working for my father as punishment for being bad.

He paid me fifty cents an hour, and seventy five if I sweat. this progressed to weekends and eventually I was climbing for his company. I learned a whole bunch from my father, what a great guy. I eventually left to start my own business because my father wouldn't let me run his company the way "I" wanted. silly man didn't he know at twenty five I had all the answers...sheeesh

My first year in business, I made a hundred and ninteen thousand dollars in ten months. I didn't own a stump machine, and I didn't own a trailer. did I have help? yes I did, and where did that help come from. You guessed it, my father. My father gave me work, let me use equipment (for a rental fee of course) always picked up the phone to answer any question, and did anything he could to help. 

That was fifteen years ago, My father has since been diagnosed with lung cancer from agent orange in vietnam. I purchased my fathers company four years ago and merged the two together. I run my company with my father in mind, so when I get someone on the job who wants to tell me how to do things or show me what "they" know I simply step back and say there's always a better way.

As far as im concerned I did come up "through the ranks". My father ranks very high in my book. He helped me grow as a business owner, a man, and a friend. When my father speaks these days it's very soft and my ears are very open. The older we get, all our answers at twenty five become questions at thirty eight. 
The sap is in my blood as they say and I love my work. Remember it's all relitive and coming up "throughn the ranks is exactly what I did.

WORK SAFE


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## RVALUE (Nov 8, 2009)

Mr. Bush said:


> No need to apologize for running on about yourselves. The human experience is as valuable as the technical advice. I just found this site yesterday while considering if I should get into this business at age 41.
> Thanks to all of you for sharing.





Get into this business at 41????? He must have already been dropped on his head. (guess the cabinet business is all took up....)
















oh, yeah welcome.. (I know, dirty trick)


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## tree MDS (Nov 9, 2009)

Has anyone ever made it who has not come up through the ranks??

Yeah sure, happens all the time, its one of the latest trends: instant tree service, just add money and watch it grow.

Theres really not all that much to this biz - just buy a bucket truck and go cut the :censored: tree. cut and hold baby! cut and hold!

lol


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## Treehound (Nov 9, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> Has anyone ever made it who has not come up through the ranks??
> 
> Yeah sure, happens all the time, its one of the latest trends: instant tree service, just add money and watch it grow.
> 
> ...



lol sooo true


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## Plasmech (Nov 9, 2009)

Treehound said:


> lol sooo true



After watching Gerry B's "Working Climber" DVD set, I'm 100% sure that there are a MILLION things to this business!


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 11, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> After watching Gerry B's "Working Climber" DVD set, I'm 100% sure that there are a MILLION things to this business!



Well to the highly motivated and high aspirating individuals, there are a million things to it. To the millions of regulars that litter the floor of the tree biz colosseum, there are few things to know. 

You can take your millions of things you know, and make it very useful to people for a big payoff. The thing is you have to know how to market your expertise, or never any payoff. Otherwise you can't take what little you know to the people out there, and receive any big payoffs. Just some payoffs.

Just to add my perspective of this. There are two sides to this business. There is the actual treeing skills i.e. climbing, rigging, all of the biological knowledge, and systematized expedition of all of the debris removal which includes management of working hands and machines. The other side is all marketing. Here is where you can put your know how on a jet instead of a chip truck. Any guy can know everything about how to run an operation, but if that guy is no good at systematizing an advertising campaign, it's no good because he doesn't have the clientel to sell it to. 

Personally I think the right guys could come to this show, and make a killing. Just like in the food business there are McDonalds and there are Olive Gardens. I think that the reason for the minimal franchising on this market is because it's an unsavory field of work. Stinkin', dirty, gripin', haphazarous.... Cooking food and cleaning restaurants is nothing like this. That is easy money, and it's safe. This is a little like being on the bomb squad.


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## capetrees (Nov 11, 2009)

I worked for years as a and for a landscaper and was always the one in the trees or on the ground handling the tree work. Used a tree chipper once for a good sized job and loved the whole concept of what that baby could do. I owned a small chuck and duck,6", and hated it prior but after using the bigger one, acually the chipper that I own today, I started to get into it a lot more. As mentioned throughout in here, I only work it weekends but business is getting bigger and better every year and possibly soon I'll do it more toward full time. Never went to school for climbing or removals and (knock on wood) haven't had any problems or injuries that I couldn't recover from within a day.


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## Plasmech (Nov 11, 2009)

I just...can't quite put my finger on you, man. Nonetheless, rock-on. 




ForTheAction said:


> Well to the highly motivated and high aspirating individuals, there are a million things to it. To the millions of regulars that litter the floor of the tree biz colosseum, there are few things to know.
> 
> You can take your millions of things you know, and make it very useful to people for a big payoff. The thing is you have to know how to market your expertise, or never any payoff. Otherwise you can't take what little you know to the people out there, and receive any big payoffs. Just some payoffs.
> 
> ...


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## fishercat (Nov 11, 2009)

*i guess i did.*

no one would train or teach me anything.not even for money.i bought the gear and read.started low and slow but picked it up quick probably because of my rock climbing days.i worked for a few tree companies but i seemed to know more than them with not much experience.only person i ever worked for that impressed me was Tree MDS.good guy with a nice outfit.


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## Blakesmaster (Nov 11, 2009)

Through the ranks fer sure. I started out working for an absolute jackass who couldn't run a biz for #### and didn't know a damn thing 'bout trees. Left that gig and found a real hardass, tough old tree guy to work for locally. He was very old school in his work methods but taught me the value of an efficient job and how to work like crazy as well as run big equipment. Started climbing a bit here and there for him, started banging out my own side gigs and grew my business as I evolved as a climber. I feel coming up this way is far safer and will get you familiar with many more aspects of the biz. A weeks straight in the firewood pile never hurt anyone, Plas.


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## BlackenedTimber (Nov 11, 2009)

ForTheAction said:


> Well to the highly motivated and high aspirating individuals, there are a million things to it. To the millions of regulars that litter the floor of the tree biz colosseum, there are few things to know.
> 
> You can take your millions of things you know, and make it very useful to people for a big payoff. The thing is you have to know how to market your expertise, or never any payoff. Otherwise you can't take what little you know to the people out there, and receive any big payoffs. Just some payoffs.
> 
> ...



I think your right about the marketing, but I wanna say this: I was incorporated at 17 yrs old after working for 2 years (while going to HS on mondays to complete my week's work in one morning, and working Monday afternoon through Saturday) for two different timber outfits. During my first year in business, I spent 63 bucks on advertising; business cards. In that first year, with a beat-up ford ranger and sub-par equipment, I grossed $148,000. I gained an excellent reputation, and all of my work was from referrals. This trend continued, and I grew my business with about 90% of my work coming from word-of-mouth referrals. If you do quality work at equitable prices, while maintaing your honesty, morality, and integrity, the work will find you.

I have used newspaper and radio advertising as well, but for overall cost effectiveness, business cards, word of mouth referrals, and a reputation of quality and honesty cannot be beat.

T


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 11, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> I think your right about the marketing, but I wanna say this: I was incorporated at 17 yrs old after working for 2 years (while going to HS on mondays to complete my week's work in one morning, and working Monday afternoon through Saturday) for two different timber outfits. During my first year in business, I spent 63 bucks on advertising; business cards. In that first year, with a beat-up ford ranger and sub-par equipment, I grossed $148,000. I gained an excellent reputation, and all of my work was from referrals. This trend continued, and I grew my business with about 90% of my work coming from word-of-mouth referrals. If you do quality work at equitable prices, while maintaing your honesty, morality, and integrity, the work will find you.
> 
> I have used newspaper and radio advertising as well, but for overall cost effectiveness, business cards, word of mouth referrals, and a reputation of quality and honesty cannot be beat.
> 
> T



That's a good example of how some people can play better with little than others can with more. 

I definitely believe that those characteristics you describe are the baseline virtues that make the difference between ameauture and big leagues so to speak. Flat out, you either don't care chit about those people, or you really want to give the biggest, best something or another that you can muster. One guy never thinks about what else he can contribute to them and what they want/need. The other guy has it all thought out, and keeps on thinking about them have an effect on them with upper league impressions. The thing is the people are who hire and pay, and if you don't think like someone who doesn't care chit about people and their service, they don't see you, hire you, or pay you. 

Overall some of us feel better at the back, and some of us feel better at the front. Whether or not any of us are at either end of any business field depends on how we think about the service and what we have time for. And there's always going to be some that fall through the cracks.


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## BlackenedTimber (Nov 11, 2009)

ForTheAction said:


> That's a good example of how some people can play better with little than others can with more.
> 
> I definitely believe that those characteristics you describe are the baseline virtues that make the difference between ameauture and big leagues so to speak. Flat out, you either don't care chit about those people, or you really want to give the biggest, best something or another that you can muster. One guy never thinks about what else he can contribute to them and what they want/need. The other guy has it all thought out, and keeps on thinking about them have an effect on them with upper league impressions. The thing is the people are who hire and pay, and if you don't think like someone who doesn't care chit about people and their service, they don't see you, hire you, or pay you.
> 
> Overall some of us feel better at the back, and some of us feel better at the front. Whether or not any of us are at either end of any business field depends on how we think about the service and what we have time for. And there's always going to be some that fall through the cracks.



A long time ago, my Dad told me "if you help enough people get what they want, eventually you will get what you want". I really take that to heart. I provide a service, and I help people get what they want. When these people are happy, they pay me, and I get what I want. 

The circle of life...

T


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## Greener (Nov 14, 2009)

*Very cool*



BlackenedTimber said:


> I guess the first tree-related job I had was working for a local logger in the afternoons and evenings splitting firewood... with an 8-lb maul. After a while, I started running a saw for him, and he taught me how to fell, buck, skid, grade, and sell timber. After about a year with him, I went to work for an old Austrian dude that really knew his stuff. He hated everyone, except me... he was a miserable human being in general. I ran a saw for him, a big Husky (I'm a Stihl guy... does a Husky 1080 make sense?), felling timber, for about a year. After he died, there was no one to take over for him, and his gear was siezed as part of his estate and sold off.
> 
> I was cutting firewood, which I was harvesting off the back acreage at my dad's farm, when people started stopping and asking if I was selling firewood. I wasn't, just cutting and splitting for personal use. After the 10th or 12th person stopped and asked, I was in the firewood business. As my name got spread around town, people started asking me if I could remove their trees. I was good with a saw on the ground, and I took on several jobs that I could accomplish easily from the ground. After a while, people started calling wanting to know if I climbed. I was in the process of explaining to one woman that I didn't climb, when my dad snatched the phone out of my hand, and yelled "Hell yeah he climbs, he'll be by Friday!" and hung up on the woman.
> 
> ...



That was an excellent story. And no, the Husky doen't make sense.


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