# Formula for loose piled firewood ?????



## Jakers (Nov 8, 2014)

Anyone ever come across a good way to figure out the amount of firewood in a loose tossed pile of firewood? I barely have time to split my wood for the year let alone stack it. ive always just guessed at how much i use by how many times i have to fill my crate for the house and trailer for the shop. both hold about half a cord but i would like to know how much is in my pile a little more accurately. just wondering is all. 

in all actuality, if anyone has a legal number of cubic ft for tossed wood from some state, i could take it from there. or a percentage of loss would work too.

if any Mods happen by this thread, i accidently posted an identical one in the sticky folder... OOOPS... Please do me a favor and delete that one


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## mainewoods (Nov 9, 2014)

A cord of 16"green, unseasoned, "thrown" firewood supposedly is 180 cubic feet, which should stack out to 128 cubic feet. But when seasoned, the pile will shrink 6-8%. A cord of 24" green,unseasoned "thrown" firewood is 195 cubic feet. So they say.


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## Freakingstang (Nov 9, 2014)

how well does your non split and non stacked wood burn?


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## Jakers (Nov 9, 2014)

Freakingstang said:


> how well does your non split and non stacked wood burn?


well... not the greatest which is to be expected but its manageable. it is all split for roughly 6 months before it gets burned. i burn through a cord a week from december to march plus all the other burning i do in the "shoulder season". its hard to get ahead far enough too. i usually have one years wood cut 2 years in advance but its the splitting im lacking on. my tree service takes most of my time. hard to justify taking time off from making $150 an hour to split wood. or worse yet, paying an employee to split it for me. id be cheaper off buying fuel


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## Freakingstang (Nov 9, 2014)

I heat with fuel... hence why I burn wood.... But, the newer EPA reburn stove doesn't like year dried wood... it has to be dry dry. Like 2 year minimum. I know what it is like having no time... I have 5 cord standing and dropped, but no time to cut it up, bring it home, split it and stack it.. I miss the old stoves, cut in spring burn that winter. but I know wood doesn't dry to well cut and loose piled


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## zogger (Nov 9, 2014)

Jakers said:


> well... not the greatest which is to be expected but its manageable. it is all split for roughly 6 months before it gets burned. i burn through a cord a week from december to march plus all the other burning i do in the "shoulder season". its hard to get ahead far enough too. i usually have one years wood cut 2 years in advance but its the splitting im lacking on. my tree service takes most of my time. hard to justify taking time off from making $150 an hour to split wood. or worse yet, paying an employee to split it for me. id be cheaper off buying fuel


What does firewood go for around you? If you can get 150-200 bucks a cord, seems like with the wood you get from your service, you most assuredly could pay someone to split it up, sell some to cover the cost, burn some yourself. I mean, 20-25 bucks a cord to split wood for someone, it's a job. All you have to do is sell one cord in five then to adequately cover your cost. Pay by the cord, not by the hour.

Also your wood heaps..get them off the ground so some air can get in there. Lay out railroad ties then cover with stout pallets, toss on those. Make big squares if ya want, doesn't matter. I know it isn't pretty stacked, but at least it is well off the ground then with air channels to let the moisture escape.


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## zogger (Nov 9, 2014)

Freakingstang said:


> I heat with fuel... hence why I burn wood.... But, the newer EPA reburn stove doesn't like year dried wood... it has to be dry dry. Like 2 year minimum. I know what it is like having no time... I have 5 cord standing and dropped, but no time to cut it up, bring it home, split it and stack it.. I miss the old stoves, cut in spring burn that winter. but I know wood doesn't dry to well cut and loose piled



I haven't done it, but just thinking, one of those all metal backyard sheds as a kiln. Get like a small cheap stove in there, burn pine/uglies/doglegs whatever. Keep a week ahead of your cut this year wood in there, it'll dry. Get it up to like 200 degrees in there, that stuff will bleed excess moisture, all ya need is a small vent someplace and the cracks around the door for air intake. Like a cheap sauna, but on steroids.


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## VW Splitter (Nov 9, 2014)

Not very acurate but I pile/toss my wood in a 10' x 22' woodshed stacked 7' high. I stack the front to hold the mound of firewood behind it, so the pile does go straight up on all 4 sides. My trailer I haul with holds around 1 cord, and the wood shed holds 8 trailer loads. 10'x22' 7' =1540 divied by 8 trailer loads would be 192.5 cubic ft of piled wood. Not sure how acurate this would be. I pile/toss on concrete and burn 1/2 a wood shed per year, so I stay 2 years ahead on the firewood. Seems to dry out just fine. Older pic from the first time I filled it up.


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## StihlRockin' (Nov 9, 2014)

Jakers said:


> hard to justify taking time off from making $150 an hour to split wood. or worse yet, paying an employee to split it for me. id be cheaper off buying fuel



I know Fergus Falls and these or this situation absolutely is hyperbolized. Firewood in that area goes from $175 to $215 c/s/d in that area. Groundies, grunts or laborers can still be found easily for $11 to $14 an hour. I'd be easily able to make off much cheaper processing my own wood with this labor cost alone to make it worth while for the firewood. The hourly there on the tree work is par and just a tad more than average, but not by much. The firewood labor is cheap enough I could explain what I want and in 3 days have a pile, a nice pile! Then again this could be my experience and someone else could have lesser results. All depends on "management".

_*StihlRockin'*_


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 9, 2014)

I concur that loose thrown 16" wood occupies 180 cubes that is accurate to 5% +/-
12" is 160 cubes loose.
This is the most accurate and expedient way to measure wood.


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## Jakers (Nov 10, 2014)

StihlRockin' said:


> I know Fergus Falls and these or this situation absolutely is hyperbolized. Firewood in that area goes from $175 to $215 c/s/d in that area. Groundies, grunts or laborers can still be found easily for $11 to $14 an hour. I'd be easily able to make off much cheaper processing my own wood with this labor cost alone to make it worth while for the firewood. The hourly there on the tree work is par and just a tad more than average, but not by much. The firewood labor is cheap enough I could explain what I want and in 3 days have a pile, a nice pile! Then again this could be my experience and someone else could have lesser results. All depends on "management".
> 
> _*StihlRockin'*_


you are most likely right. i am also new to the management department. the other thing is you may be getting a bit more for your firewood than i see possible. CL ads are running constant from $120-160 per cord for hardwood. lots of guys around here that sell for a side job in the winter. good advise though. always places to improve. i just have to get rid of my stubborn "lone wolf, i can do it all on my own" attitude


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## StihlRockin' (Nov 10, 2014)

Jakers said:


> always places to improve. i just have to get rid of my stubborn "lone wolf, i can do it all on my own" attitude



Exactly. Always looking for places to improve usually yields excellent results for those who seek it. I too am guilty of trying to do too much myself at times. It's mainly about doing top quality work and hired help sometimes won't get me the outcome I expect for my clients.

As for your you CL info, again looks to me to be off slightly. Just took a look in that area and I see a few ads for pick-up loads for $100 to $125, which if stacked are anywhere from *1/2* a cord and slightly more. Some ads for $175 a cord(delivered). I also see some ads with the figures you quoted, but interesting the wood is popple and almost all of them do not say if that price includes delivery. So yeah, looks to me you could increase your prices. I've seen an uprise in prices 3 years straight. Supply and demand. People that are tired of paying high fuel costs to heat their homes are now seeking other sources, like wood. Keep your wood, price it at $180 and start selling January 15th. Then we'll see what happens. 

*StihlRockin'*


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## skindaddy (Nov 10, 2014)

i just made for the first time 2 different beehive piles.
one is 10ft dia. and the other is 12ft dia both are at least 8ft high and filled in the center ,wood is not split but tried to pack good as can with what size i had at time of unloading.
how much wood would be considered in each one of these hives roughly ?


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## StihlRockin' (Nov 10, 2014)

The formula thing I see in this thread I'd have to disagree on totally. I think they're being light on the air gap in regards to loosely thrown piled wood.(non-stacked)

A standard 8' bed pickup that has 5 stacked rows of wood with them sticking a few inches over the edge of the bed yields a 1/2 cord. Closely checking out 2 of the areas larger(est) vendors, one gets you a stacked load from a pickup with sides on it that measures 3/4 of a cord. The larger outfit told me that if I want a cord, they sometimes deliver it with 3 truckloads "piled"(thrown loosely) and the wood is barely higher than the sides. They said it takes 3 loads like this to equal a cord.

With that said, 2 loads stacked is equal to 3 loads piled. That 5+/- and other figures sure looks off now.

I do believe the most accurate way to figure is spend a few minutes to arrange a loosely thrown pile into a certain shape.(pyramid, dome, parabolic curve) Then find the appropriate math equation for volume and do the math. The problem with the pyramid equation is that it's for an actual pyramid shape.

I understand the want or need to have such a formula, because then one would not have to stack the wood to measure and calculate. Still, to me it's a step of the process of handling/selling wood that can't be skipped if you want a more accurate account of the cubic feet volume of wood you have.

There is one problem to this situation though you should consider. Cubic feet volume formulas will hugely fluctuate regardless simply because of the way the wood is placed into that volume. Stacked in that space will yield way more wood than the same place filled, but with loosely thrown wood. Loose piles are more apt to have larger variances in air gaps as well, compared to stacked piles. Take a loose pile and measure it. Then throw that pile over a few feet and measure again. You'll now see what I mean by variance or fluctuation. 

Even if you find your formula, you'll need another one that can calculate the fluctuations and differences of stacked -vs- loosely piled wood within that given space. LOL!

*StihlRockin'*


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## mainewoods (Nov 10, 2014)

The 180 cf "formula" is for loose wood thrown into a truck or box, not a pile on the ground. You could make a 4 sided box with screws and no bottom, that measures 200cf and fill it with thrown wood. Remove the sides and you will have a visual of what a cord "pile" looks like. Take a couple of quick measurements of the collapsed pile ( after sides are removed) and use those measurements as a guide for each pile you make. Not exactly precise, but close enough to give you a decent idea of the amount of wood you have. JMO


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## skindaddy (Nov 10, 2014)

i cant find a calculator to figure hives, i assume i would need to figure volume then subract out a certain % for air space ?


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## zogger (Nov 10, 2014)

skindaddy said:


> i cant find a calculator to figure hives, i assume i would need to figure volume then subract out a certain % for air space ?



If you slap this into google, "volume of cone" , the top link right directly on the page is an online calculator for volume of a cone. As to how much to subtract for air space, dang not sure, 15%-20% maybe? I'm guessing there.


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## Jakers (Nov 10, 2014)

zogger said:


> If you slap this into google, "volume of cone" , the top link right directly on the page is an online calculator for volume of a cone. As to how much to subtract for air space, dang not sure, 15%-20% maybe? I'm guessing there.


i believe skindaddy was possibly talking about a holzhausen. not for sure tho. for some silly reason i never thought of googling "volume of a cone". i was going about it as triangles


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## skindaddy (Nov 10, 2014)

yes holz hausen, which mine is more like a cylinder, not a cone
the volume of the 12ft one is like 904 and the volume of the 10ft one is 629, i just dont know what to do with the figures now!


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## mainewoods (Nov 10, 2014)

Search "volumn of a cylinder" and go to the "online calculators" site ( about 6 down on the first page.) It will calculate the dimensions for you in cubic feet ( must enter in "unit of measure" box, feet)


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 10, 2014)

zogger said:


> If you slap this into google, "volume of cone" , the top link right directly on the page is an online calculator for volume of a cone. As to how much to subtract for air space, dang not sure, 15%-20% maybe? I'm guessing there.


Volume of a cone = 1/12 x 3.14 x height x square of diameter of base.

Suppose the height of the wood pile is 8' and its diameter is 20'. The volume of the wood pile is approximated as (1/12)(3.14)(8)(20)(20) = 837 cu ft.

The amount of equivalent cords of stacked wood in that pile will vary from this amount based on average log length and average diameter. You might have 5 cords there, but you will not have 6.5. The actual amount will depend on who bucked the logs and who split the rounds.

It will also vary based on who measured the pile of logs and how many beers he drank before he measured it.


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## StihlRockin' (Nov 11, 2014)

skindaddy said:


> yes holz hausen, which mine is more like a cylinder, not a cone
> the volume of the 12ft one is like 904 and the volume of the 10ft one is 629, i just dont know what to do with the figures now!



Too tired to look into this further, but if those are the total volume, then divide by 128, the cu.sq.ft. volume of a cord. So 904 = 7.06 or 7 cords... which to me something is wrong. A 7 cord pile of loosely thrown wood is a LOT and looks even larger than the same area with stacked wood.

I also promise these figures are off too because it's standard practice to measure stacked wood to measure the amount of wood there is in cu.sq.ft volume. Meaning, take an area and pile wood in it, then take the same area and stack wood into it. You'll yield more wood having it stacked.

To try and calculate the extra air space that comes with loosely piled wood is practically impossible because each time you move that pile, so does the air gaps and the way the wood piles. Ever look into a loosely throw pile of and see gaps large enough to stuff 2,3 or 4 pieces of wood into to fill it? See what I mean?

*StihlRockin'*


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 11, 2014)

It's not as though we're trying to split hairs here, but we need to know that every wood customer has every stick and then some.


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## mainewoods (Nov 11, 2014)

StihlRockin' said:


> The formula thing I see in this thread I'd have to disagree on totally. I think they're being light on the air gap in regards to loosely thrown piled wood.(non-stacked)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## StihlRockin' (Nov 11, 2014)

StihlRockin' said:


> The formula thing I see in this thread I'd have to disagree on totally. I think they're being light on the air gap in regards to loosely thrown piled wood.(non-stacked)





mainewoods said:


> The 180cf thrown firewood "formula" seems to be a pretty common measurement in numerous states. I have seen at least 1 state with a legal definition of a thrown cord as occupying 150cf. Minnesota's legal definition of a thrown cord is 175cf. Unless it has changed recently.



Please make sure you add your own comments outside the brackets of the person who is quoted or it looks like what you said is what I said, which I didn't. Makes it less confusing.

Well if the 180cu.ft. formula for loosely thrown wood works, then there's a way to calculate, approximately, that amount of actual wood in a pile. The difference between 180 and 128(full cord) is 52 or take your 180 and subtract approx. 28.75% and you get the 128.

Not sure why this would help, but it would work in reverse too. We know, presuming the 180cf formula works and wood is piled in a way to measure, that a full cord 128cf when thrown loosely in a pile fills a space of approx. 180cf. What one can pull from this is that if you take a measured full 128cf cord and throw it loosely into the shape that fits into the formula, that it will fill a volume area equivalent to 40.5% more. 128 + 40.5% = 179.84.

Because the greater variance of gaps that can occur in loosely piled wood versus stacked wood, I'd never use the formula if measuring to determine an amount to sell to a customer. 

*StihlRockin'*


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 11, 2014)

Obviously the longer the pieces, the bigger the spaces, but since 16 is the standard its fair to say it will take up 30% more space.
This method basically cuts your labor in half,plus you can throw in those odds and ends.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 11, 2014)

As a further volume discussion, I have 321 linear ft of 12" blocks piled 4' high. How many cords do I have?


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## mainewoods (Nov 11, 2014)

Every site that I have seen stating the "formula" for thrown firewood, acknowledges that it is not a 100% accurate measurement, for the very reasons stated ( air gaps. and every pile never being equal every time it is thrown). For example, the State of Maine Attorney Generals office, after numerous filed complaints of shorted wood delivery's, tested multiple one cord piles of thrown firewood, and came up with an acceptable measurement of 180cf. I would think that if it is acceptable for the Attorney General's office it would be acceptable for the rest of us. Dealer and buyer alike. Personally, if I was selling firewood I would pad that 180 cf some, just to make sure.


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## Erik B (Nov 11, 2014)

Gypo Logger said:


> As a further volume discussion, I have 321 linear ft of 12" blocks piled 4' high. How many cords do I have?


You have 10.03125 cords of wood. 4x1x321/128=10.03125


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 11, 2014)

Yes, math gave me the same answer, but what Ive done by going with a linear measurement is eliminate 20% of the airspace. so volume wise I bet its closer to 12 cords if it was tightly stacked within a 128 x 12 area. however I will sell it as ten and see how it pans out.


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 11, 2014)

Erik B said:


> You have 10.03125 cords of wood. 4x1x321/128=10.03125


That assumes, of course, that he crisscross stacked the ends straight up and square to support the stack or at least used support stakes. And, 12" blocks (split logs?) seem rather short. They don't even stack very well. Just thought I'd add my two cents of seasoned experience.


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