# Climbing, How to Learn???



## J_Ashley (Oct 4, 2005)

First of all let me say I'm 19 years old. I've been doing firewood cutting for a couple years now and am very comfortable using a chainsaw for bucking and felling etc.

However I've had to turn down some side jobs because of the condition of the trees. Now, I'm smart enough to say no when I realize I'm not capable of doing a job safely. So I'm sure someone will say, "Let the professionals worry about that." Don't worry, thats what I'll do for the meantime.

I am wanting to 'learn the ropes' of tree climbing. However I've come to the painful realization that I know absolutely nothing about it, and I'm not about to tie a rope around my belt and hike up a tree in order to kill myself. 

The truth is, I have no idea where to start. Some have suggested I should get a job for a tree service. The problem is I work full time now on top of another part time job. I've purchased the Tree Climber's Companion, but even reading a manual doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence when putting my life 'on a line' so to speak. I'm really looking for some help here. I know how niave this sounds, so please, be gentle.

Justin


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## Tree Machine (Oct 4, 2005)

J_Ashley said:


> First of all let me say I'm 19 years old. The truth is, I have no idea where to start.Justin


You start here.

You've come to the right place. It would help us help you if you could put all your gear in one place and take a picture. It is worth a thousand words.

And don't worry, we really like Newbies, especially ones that admit their limitations and and are smart enough to ask to be helped. We'll help you.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 4, 2005)

We have some cultural ground rules you will need to respect. 1) We care for trees, so we don't use spikes on any tree except a takedown, 2) We practice safety at all times.

Everybody can suggest lots of other rules, but those are the two biggies. You go home in one piece, each and every night to work again tomorrow to care for more trees.

One assumption we must make is, you wish to climb trees, and rig limbs and stuff like that, right? Start low and slow and work your way up? And do you wish to learn ascending / descending methods, control of ropes and friction, ropesetting, and aerial positioning and cutting? Do you wanna learn about chainsaws and chain sharpening and chain making and bar maintenence, and saws and polesaws and power pruners and pole pruners and Japanese handsaws?
Firewood making, log milling, stump grinding.
Trucks. Chippers.

If that kind of stuff just gets you cranking, this would be the place. Pull up a chair, stay awhile.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 5, 2005)

*climbing and wood splitting*

Firewood is the single best place to start climbing. 'How the heck does that work?' you may ask. Allow me to explain; one of the most important bridges you will cross in your tree-climbing career is to become comfortable while up in the trees, only after that happens will you really begin to learn and understand the craft. Learning to trust your gear is pretty easy, the stuff is hugely strong. The trick to tree work is knowing the trees. What type of crotch is strong? Weak? How will an injury affect the strength of a stem? What does interior rot look like on the outside? This is the really hard stuff to learn, and you are probably well on your way. 

After a tree is injured it will begin to grow big ol’ “lips” around the injury. After a few years the originally wood may start to decay, but the lips will have gotten bigger. What is your opinion of this wood Justin, the lips I mean? Do they split hard? Are they strong? What about the ears that sometimes grow out of the base of a crotch? 

The second most important thing to know about climbing is how a landing works. By “landing” I mean anywhere trees are being processed, cut up, chipped, felled, etc. The climber often controls the tempo of a job, so it is important for you to know what the ground guys can and cannot be reasonably expected to do. Also, the landing has a whole slew of dangers all its own, your familiarity with them will serve you well.

As for learning the basics of climbing, you could join or start a recreational climbing club. Going out on sunny cool Saturday with some friends and climbing a big tree is a great time, also a good low pressure way to become familiar with the gear. You have no time limit, no chainsaw, and no power lines to worry about. Each of those three items is a killer. Incorporate them into your life one at a time.

Good luck, listen to Tree Machine, be safe.


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## iain (Oct 5, 2005)

J_Ashley said:


> a whole lot of confidence when putting my life 'on a line'
> Justin



65% of climbing is in trusting your "line" and kit 
20% by knowing what you can expect from each tree species when your in & working on it 
10% is your groundies
5% good luck

100% work safely always ! don't take short cuts unless your prepared to take the concequence's 

practical experience is the best teacher and "no" book can teach what you must learn by walking the walk

by a rope and harness and go for it !! the techique, will come with practise


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## KentuckySawyer (Oct 5, 2005)

If you're interested in some practical experience, you can give me a call (502-376-9637). It can be as part-time as you need.

The best way to learn is by watching and then doing. Having somebody there with you that can answer questions, offer suggestions, and shower you with sarcasm. It worked for me!


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Oct 5, 2005)

I think the first stage is to practice the knots you'll need to know. Get a lengh of rope as close to 1/2" thick as you can. Chuck it over a branch or a rafter and practice tying a 3 knot climbing system.

So Tie a bowline or double bowline if you prefer leave yourself with a long tail. Next tie you friction hitch personly i'd use blakes but you could use a prussic. End the whole thing with a figure of 8.

Thats a basic 3 knot climbing system get comtable tying thoses three knots and things will become easier.


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## Chain_Bit_Me! (Oct 5, 2005)

*Knot terms and demo's*

For us newbies, it would be nice if you experienced climbers would maybe give some how-to's on knot tying along with the knot names. I know there's a bunch of them. Also, what knots would work best for the various applications.

As a side note, I thought that using a dremel with a round stone would decrease my chain sharpening time. Being a man, I have to say the 3 words we hate to say the most.....I was wrong.

Used on a 81 link chain, a new stone ground on the 1st tooth will not give the same results on the last (81st). Obviously, the stone was getting smaller as it was wearing.

I used a file on the last sharpening and my chain lasted 3X longer. You experienced guys may want to elaborate if you want.

Have a great day.


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## Husky288XP (Oct 5, 2005)

Chain Bit Me,

Do you "Live off a steady supply of government cheese" or "Your not gonna amount to JACK SQ.......".  

Just reliving the good times.


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## Chain_Bit_Me! (Oct 5, 2005)

*Yeah...thats me. Sorry to get off on a tangent but...*

RIP....Chris Farley

[ open on a family's front living room, everyone seated on opposite couches ]

Dad: Brian? Stacy? Your mother, Ellen, and I are so glad you decided to join us for this Family Communication session.

Stacy: So, what's up? You guys getting divorced, or something?

Mom: No. We just wanted the family to talk as a group.

Brian: Okay. Well, let's get it started.

Mom: Okay. Well, Stacy, Brian.. your father, Ted, and I are a little bit concerned. Cecilia, the cleaning lady, was in the family room, and she found a bag of pot.

Stacy: [ anxious ] She didn't smoke it, did she?

Mom: No! She didn't smoke it.

Dad: Now, we're not here to "come down on you" I mean, that's not what we're about, okay?

Mom: We're just concerned that pot could lead to other things.

Dad: Crack. Ice. Boom. Pow.

Mom: Well, we know you don't want to hear this from us.

Dad: Sure! I mean we're your parents! Who wants to hear this stuff from their parents, huh?

Mom: Your father and I came up with a brilliant idea to give you kids some direction - a motivational speaker.

Dad: Yeah. One of those guys who speaks to big groups at high schools and churches.

Stacy: You mean, to come to the house?

Mom: Yeah.

[ the kids get up to leave ]

Dad: Hey, come on, you guys. This set me back a few bucks. Okay, his name is Matt Foley. Now, he's been down in the basement drinking coffee for about the last four hours, and he should be all ready to go. I'll call him up. [ opens the basement door ] Matt, we're ready for you! [ turns to the kids ] His speech is called "Go For It!" Now, he's used to big groups, so make him feel like there's a crowd here. [ calls down the basement again ] Matt! Come on up, buddy!

Matt Foley: [ runs up the stairs, bouncing back and forth as he talks ] Alright, how's everybody? Good! Good! Good! Now, as your father probably told you, my name is Matt Foley, and I am a Motivational Speaker! Now, let's get started by me giving you a little bit of a scenario of what my life is all about! First off, I am 35 years old.. I am divorced.. and I live in a van down by the river! Now, you kids are probably saying to yourself, "Now, I'm gonna go out, and I'm gonna get the world by the tail, and wrap it around and put it in my pocket!!" Well, I'm here to tell you that you're probably gonna find out, as you go out there, that you're not gonna amount to Jack Squat!!" You're gonna end up eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river! Now, young man, what do you want to do with your life?

Brian: [ nervous ] I.. actually, Matt.. I kinda wanna be a writer..

Matt Foley: We-e-e-elll.. la-de-freakin'-da! We've got ourselves a writer here! [ jumps across the room ] Hey, Dad, I can't see real good.. [ lifts his glasses off and on his face ] ..is that Bill Shakespeare over there?

Dad: Well, actually, Matt.. Ellen and I have encouraged Brian in his writing.

Matt Foley: Dad, I wish you could just shut your big yapper! [ stumbles back across the room ] Now, I wonder.. Brian, from what I've heard, you're using your paper, not for writing, but for rolling doobies!! You're gonna be doing a lot of doobie-rolling when you're living in a van down by the river! [ turns to Stacy ] Young lady, what do you want to do with your life?!

Stacy: [ sarcastic ] I want to live in a van down by the river.

Matt Foley: Well, you'll have plenty of time to live in a van down by the river when you're.. [ tries to be clever ] ..living in a van down by the river! Now, you kids are probably asking yourself, "Hey, Matt, how can we get back on the right track?!" Well, as I see it, there is only one solution! And that is for me to get my gear, move it on into here, 'cause I'm gonna bunk with you, buddy! We're gonna be buddies! We're gonna be pals! [ picks Brian up ] We're gonna wrassle around! [ puts Brian down ] Ol' Matt's gonna be your shadow! [ motions] Here's Matt, here's you! There's Matt, there's you! [ trips and falls flat on the coffee table, sending it crashing to the floor ] Whoops-a-daisy! [ stands up ] We're gonna have to clean that up later! Me and my buddies! My pals! My amigos! I'm gonna go get my gear! [ heads for the door ]

Brian: [ runs after Matt ] Wait, Matt! You don't have to go!

Stacy: [ runs behind Brian ] Yeah, you don't have to do that! We'll never smoke pot again!

Dad: Uh, Matt, thanks for all you've done!

Matt Foley: I don't give a rat's behind, 'cause I'm moving in! I'm sick and tired of living in a van down by the river!
[ as Matt steps outside to grab his gear, Dad quickly locks the front door ]

Dad: [ frightened ] Is the back door locked?

Mom: [ petrified ] Yes!

Stacy: We love you, Dad!

Dad: I love you, too!

[ fade out on family group hug ]


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## Chain_Bit_Me! (Oct 5, 2005)

*Sorry....Husky288XP baited me.*

C,ya


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## Chain_Bit_Me! (Oct 5, 2005)

*Climbing gear...where do you buy from?*

Does anyone know where to buy good climbing gear (the stuff the pro's use). I've read the recreational posts but doubt the rec stuff is as good at the pro's equipment. If I'm going to put my life into a safety harness, I'm going to get the best that's out there.

Back to the first post. Where do you go to learn good tree climbing experience?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 5, 2005)

We will dial you in at the TCI Expo, just show up. Come and be a part of the whole scene, over a couple of days and it will change your young, green life. You get a super highly concentrated big-a$s learning experience. Bring all the money you can possibly pull together and buy your basic gear gear here. Try on ten different saddles. You'll go back home recharged, invigorated, more confident and better equipped. The Expo is worthwhile for all facets of our tree care industry, but the noobs that attend this show benefit most. It's a good shot in the arm, so get in your van over there by the river, and come to the show.http://www.treecareindustry.org/content/mtgs/meetings.htm
Formal noob invite.


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## darkstar (Oct 5, 2005)

geez tree co. be easy on chain bit me ...that was one heck of a witty write up- respond ....... i like it ... very creative 
either of you noobs can get good gear just by looking below and choosing the right stuff ,if you know what that is. i think you both should come to chatt. tennessee and my crew will show you what s up both in tree climbing and rockclimbing. now hows that ?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 5, 2005)

You mean 'Camp Darkstar'? Tree boot camp under the industry's wickedest General. You make it sound like you're inviting him over to climb. Shurr, uh huh. Don't do it, Noob. You're being baited. Start low and slow, don't start at the roughest camp in the south. 

At Camp Darkstar, dude, you've gotta be at a hundred sixty percent, _all the time_ or this team of seasoned, merciless workhogs will grind you into hamburger.

Are you up for it? Are you really up for it?


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## Dadatwins (Oct 5, 2005)

J_Ashley said:


> I am wanting to 'learn the ropes' of tree climbing. However I've come to the painful realization that I know absolutely nothing about it, and I'm not about to tie a rope around my belt and hike up a tree in order to kill myself.
> 
> The truth is, I have no idea where to start. Some have suggested I should get a job for a tree service. The problem is I work full time now on top of another part time job. I've purchased the Tree Climber's Companion, but even reading a manual doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence when putting my life 'on a line' so to speak. I'm really looking for some help here. I know how niave this sounds, so please, be gentle.
> 
> Justin



Wow, a newbie that admits to not knowing everything, a true rarity in this biz. Well you do know a lot more than you think and like TM said you knew enough to ask the question of "where do I start?" Good for you, most do not ask and end up in the injury section of these forums. Books and video great starting tools, a piece of scrap line to practice knots great to have also. Best way to learn is watching and doing with someone experienced in my opinion. If that is not an option for you right now take some rope and a saddle in a backyard tree great place to get the feel and work on balance. Beside the no spikes on live trees, and proper PPE, remember YOUR climbing line is just that, not for rigging, loaning out, or any other use. It stays with you all the time and you still check it everytime you use it. Leave the saws and spikes on the ground and work on simple up, down, balance, and limb walking and just getting comfortable off the ground. Low and slow is the general rule, practice your tie in hitch until you can do it with your eyes closed, there are many to chose, my opinion is start with the most basic taut-line or blakes get the feel for it and how it acts and move up from there. Good luck, be careful and have fun.


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## clearance (Oct 5, 2005)

J. Ashley-good for you buddy that you want to climb. First of all Tree Machine, do not include me with "we". "Cultural ground rules", get lost. I climb with spurs at all times, if you don't like that, b.f.d.. J. Ashley, the safest way to climb is with spurs and a steelcore lanyard, but remember this always, you are #1 and always will be, never the tree or what anyone else thinks. The help you have got here is mostly good, always wear p.p.e., never climb alone, always be tied in or clipped in and don't one hand a saw for a while yet. I have never spurless climbed but I want you to learn, just be real sure whatever you are tied into is good. Good luck, take your time.


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## Lumberjack (Oct 5, 2005)

Hey dude, I am 19, started a coupla years ago. Look for me on AIM (ctrarborist), I got your SN.


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## Husky288XP (Oct 5, 2005)

Ya,
Talk to Lumberjack he'll tell all you need to know about Tree Care operations like air spading and stump grinding.


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## J_Ashley (Oct 5, 2005)

Wow, First let me say thanks for all the quick and helpful replys.

Now a little more background on myself. My saws are listen in my profile below. Along with those, my PPE includes a couple pairs of chaps (one wrap-around, one front-only) a helmet/ear muff/face shield setup, padded gloves, and countless pairs of safety glasses. I always wear my boots when cutting and try to cut/think/saw as logically as I know how. I currently do not have ANY climbing gear, thus part of the reason for my post.

IF I do end up purchasing some climbing gear, the first tree I'll climb up is a pretty tall & sturdy red-oak here at the hosue. It needs some minor pruning down low, so this will be a good learner as well. After that will (probably) come a large hedge-apple tree that will come down. A good chance for spikes maybe? Anyways, thanks again for the responses- keep them coming!

Justin

PS, TreeMachine, I'm now making plans to attend that expo!


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## JonnyHart (Oct 6, 2005)

You said you got the tree climbers companion. Read up on SRT and DdRT. No need to spike up that oak unless you're gonna take her down. There are a few ways to get up there. Seriously, the thought of somebody reading the book, buying some gear, and going up a tree scares me. You said with your full time job, you got no time to work with a tree service. My advice is find some time or give up on the idea of climbing.


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## rebelman (Oct 6, 2005)

*ladder*

put a ladder up it.


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## Diesel JD (Oct 6, 2005)

Well a few years ago when I was about 16 I seriously was thinking about getting into the business. I bought a saddle and some rope heavy enough to hold me and then some within it's safe working load. I kind of got discouraged, maybe my sense of fear kept me from doing something really stupid. Who knows though, if this site had been around then, I might be an arborist now. My advice is go for it, but the best thing would be to make friends with a decent tree surgeon in yoru area and learn the ropes from them. After finding this site, I've kinda been bitten by the climbing bug again, not neccessarily to work in the industry, but just to climb again, or perhaps to work on the side, who knows, so I will be following your progress with great interest. Look into the links above for your climbing gear. It seems that Baileys has slightly lower prices than some of the other places, but Sherril is also great to work with, bot of those places are great from personal experience, best of luck,
J.D.


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Oct 6, 2005)

Do local colleges training courses? Over here you have to be certificated before you can climb trees. We have one week intensive training courses that teach you the basics. Kit ID, climbing techniques, 4 rescue methods. The emphsis is really on the resuce in training here.


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## darkstar (Oct 6, 2005)

son ,,, just get yer as,s down here tree- machine is wrong we will show you the ropes ... that really crackes me up tree machine ... nice thanx bro ....a good laugh at 8 :40 on a rainy morn ... lol dark


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 6, 2005)

You could hire Tom D. (or me, though he has a bit more flexibility in his schedule) to come and give you some basic instruction.


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## Husky288XP (Oct 6, 2005)

No,

You want Rip Tompkins.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 6, 2005)

I can't think of a better way to kick start your career than to spend November 8 and 9th in Columbus Indiana. Some personal instruction from one of our industry giants, like JP or some other world-class figures. Where else, withing the next 30 days, would you be able to approximate ANYTHING like the TCI Expo. So there ya have it

An opportunity comes no better than this. Get on your bad motor scooter and ride.


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## darkstar (Oct 6, 2005)

umm i think hes better off with me ladies


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## Tree Machine (Oct 6, 2005)

Don't be corrupting the noobs, darkstar. We're trying to mold this hunk of clay into a Master Climber.


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 6, 2005)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> You could hire Tom D. (or me, though he has a bit more flexibility in his schedule) to come and give you some basic instruction.






Husky288XP said:


> No,
> You want Rip Tompkins.




I think Tom D would be an excellent choice!!!

When he showed me the ins ands outs of the B'Fly II saddle he was patient and easy to understand!


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## Husky288XP (Oct 6, 2005)

Oh ya and crampons, not tampons, too.


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 6, 2005)

Husky288XP said:


> Oh ya and crampons, not tampons, too.



Oh thats right you would use hooks on an ice covered spar after an ice storm!

Toms experience speaks volumes nomatter what anyone says!


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## Husky288XP (Oct 6, 2005)

You know it, and when we get that ice storm I'll see it first hand. Gaffs are for tree climbers and crampon are for mountaineers.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 6, 2005)

rahtreelimbs said:


> I think Tom D would be an excellent choice!!!


It just so happens Tom is giving a FREE SRT Climbing clinic on the Expo floor at both 11:05am and 1:05pm Friday November 11. 


Coincidence,......


I think not.


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 6, 2005)

Husky288XP said:


> You know it, and when we get that ice storm I'll see it first hand. Gaffs are for tree climbers and crampon are for mountaineers.



Neither you or I are qualified to answer this as neither one of us has any real ice storm experience!!!


No crampons are for ice.............why do you object to this idea???


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## Tree Machine (Oct 6, 2005)

I have experience climbing ice trees. Crampons would not allow you to footlock and wouldn't work like spikes do. Spikes are very helpful in ice trees. Spikeless climbing is entirely possible, but very challenging work (we embrace this).


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## darkstar (Oct 6, 2005)

well we here AT ,the dark man have expierence in rock up to 5.14b trees unrated ...but usualluY r or x and water ice grade 10 or more ... pluse we got wall expierence to boot ...say el cap in a day .. you young unns " be beter oft training with us" ..think of it ? youll climb sick overhanging rock ... trees will be easy except you will have to learn the safety factor .... thats hard to do ... ummm water ice ...not much different than combinIng a hard tree with a hard rock climb ... in other words [[hard]]] .... we can travel to ouray for that bit im sure tom will be in agreement on that one or better yet we can use the diamond mostly rock and steep snow / ice ..... what say you ? Dark


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 6, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> I have experience climbing ice trees. Crampons would not allow you to footlock and wouldn't work like spikes do. Spikes are very helpful in ice trees. Spikeless climbing is entirely possible, but very challenging work (we embrace this).



OK, this is what I was looking for. Someone with actual experience on iced trees!

Crampons wouldn't work like hooks........will they work though?


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## kf_tree (Oct 6, 2005)

darkstar said:


> well we here AT ,the dark man have expierence in rock up to 5.14b trees unrated ...but usualluY r or x and water ice grade 10 or more ... pluse we got wall expierence to boot ...say el cap in a day .. you young unns " be beter oft training with us" ..think of it ? youll climb sick overhanging rock ... trees will be easy except you will have to learn the safety factor .... thats hard to do ... ummm water ice ...not much different than combinIng a hard tree with a hard rock climb ... in other words [[hard]]] .... we can travel to ouray for that bit im sure tom will be in agreement on that one or better yet we can use the diamond mostly rock and steep snow / ice ..... what say you ? Dark



now i know your just pulling his leg. wi10? please explain what a wi10 route is?


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## kf_tree (Oct 6, 2005)

rahtreelimbs said:


> OK, this is what I was looking for. Someone with actual experience on iced trees!
> 
> Crampons wouldn't work like hooks........will they work though?



you would need calves like arnaolds thighs to stay front pointed on a tree. i own 3 pairs of crampons and wouldn't even think of useing them for tree work. if there is that much ice in a tree, sit home by the fire.


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## JonnyHart (Oct 6, 2005)

You're probably confusing the lad now...I can see the injurys forum in a couple days. "rookie Kentuky 19 y/o fell out of a tree while wearing crampons"  

Does KY get any good ice storms?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 7, 2005)

Kentucky does. The year before last, Tennessee to the south of Kentucky got super slammed. A number of years ago I-75 from southern Georgia into Northern Florida was closed because of an ice storm. My Mom was caught up in that mess. Last year, Indianapolis was missed, but 10 Km north of us, and on for another 100 Km to the north, significant devastation, elms looking like they got hit by bombs.

Ice storms can happen most places in the U.S. in the Winter. Can be a huge boost for an arborist in the Winter.

I don't recommend crampons in the tree. I've worn them glacier hiking, and I can't imagine wearing them in a tree.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 7, 2005)

I imagine that they would suck.


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## J_Ashley (Oct 7, 2005)

Thanks again guys. I've scheduled to meet with a climbing (specialist) at a local saw shop to talk over climbing gear. I might end up with a basic saddle and ropes today, don't know. I have made plans to attend the EXPO in columbus 9-11th. Thanks Tree Machine, that link may be the greatest help so far... Ok break time's over now, time to get back to work 

Justin


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 7, 2005)

Read this article:

http://tinyurl.com/794n3

I've used crampons for iced trees. They work FANTASTIC!!! It's almost like having suction cups. One time after a day of ice climbing I put my gear on and grabbed my tools to try them on a tree. I found a dead elm in a park reserve. The tree had a bit of lean, not quite vertical. It was fun to whack my way up the tree. Would I ever use them for normal treework? Since the Big Shot will put a line up and makes SRT so safe and easy there's no reason to use ice tools for ascent. The crampons are waiting for another ice storm.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 7, 2005)

Interesting, Tom. I'm glad I didn't make hasty, un-informed judgement about the use of them in trees. Ice trees would list as "Steep, hard ice, or vertical ice."

OK, another secret weapon in the Arborist's tool arsenal ! Who'da thunk? I've gone from "Can't imagine wearing them in a tree," to "Can't wait to wear them in a tree." Indianapolis hasn't had a strong ice storm in 7 years, and storms have been light. So many of the trees are so very overextended that if we get an (overdue) ice storm this Winter, it could be a very bad scene. I've been saying this for the last three years. Every year the potential for big damage increases.

I love working in the Winter, but then again it's not Winter like Minnesota. THAT is Winter. I stay prepared for events like ice storms, but clearly, I need to add crampons to the kit for the upcoming season.

Noobie, I'm glad you're coming to TCI Expo. On your badge, have them ID you as Super Noob. Own your noobieness, it's not a disease. It's where we all started. We've all been there, which is why we treat noobs with respect.

Most of us don't start tree climbing by flashing a 5.13C with Darkstar, but in all honesty, I encourage you to do so. Nothing like diving in the deep end


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## rbtree (Oct 7, 2005)

darkstar said:


> well we here AT ,the dark man have expierence in rock up to 5.14b Dark



Dark, are you serious? Awesome.. 

What's your level on lead? on a multi pitch alpine climb? Send me some pics if ya got some goodies. I'd sure like to motivate myself into getting back on some alpine faces!!


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## darkstar (Oct 7, 2005)

rb tree I got a good pic of me leading a 13d bolted roof thingie but i dont know how to resize it ... and will not accept the att . It might e mail however .
I would not be very good inspiration for alpine walls as i just barely enjoy them .
In my older age ive become somewaht of a sport weinie . Still climbing trees but mostly clipping bolts .Oh and a new found passion for deep water soloing . Basically climbing hard routes about 45 feet tall over water . 
Send me the noob, in 6 months he will be like a rock and possibly beganning to show some tree talent allthough that usually takes more than 6 months .That is if my fellow climbers dont corrupt him . har har PM me your e dress r btree ill try and e mail you the pic .... Dark........ps wi10 meens water ice grade 10 easy with the new heel spurs[[[ edit ]]]come to think of i should say m10 ... mixed 10


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## Tree Machine (Oct 7, 2005)

An apprentice is born.


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## kf_tree (Oct 7, 2005)

dark

i've only heard of wi6 then the m rating starts.......thats some pretty impressive climbing you have under your belt. i live about 45min from the gunks. i haven't done much rock but i enjoy ice and alpine climbing and really love playing with the mixed and dry tool climbs.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 7, 2005)

J_Ashley said:


> Thanks again guys. I've scheduled to meet with a climbing (specialist) at a local saw shop to talk over climbing gear. I might end up with a basic saddle and ropes today......I have made plans to attend the EXPO in columbus 9-11th.
> Justin



We don't want you in a basic saddle. We want you on a pro series saddle. They're really not a lot more, considering the amount of hours it will serve you. You can try 20 different saddles on at the Expo, and then buy the one you want. This is a time to bring as much money as you can. There is endless tree gear, and the vendors this year are packed wall to wall. As you'll learn, tree gear pays for itself. Get the best gear. It's all investment in your dream, so spend abundantly.


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## darkstar (Oct 7, 2005)

I agree with tree machine . Get the good gear and learn how to use it .The latest awesome tree harness is the mack .Dont listen to me, im a pulling your leg on the tree side of things . Listen to tree machine and Tom Dunlap ,,,and Tree seer and and Tree co.... and all etc... you dont want to end up like me .. Dark


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 7, 2005)

*starting simply*

I’m not sure all the kit and jingle is the best place to start. You could begin simply, add equipment slowly, as your level of proficiency requires.

Go and buy 2 Locking carabineers or snaps and 125 feet of three strand rope, ½”, polyester, hard lay (it will feel stiff in your hands), tree rope. 50 years ago it was manila line, full of splinters and smelling like some far off place. All a climber needed was a few feet of rope and a handsaw.

Cut 25’ off and learn to tie a swiss seat. This is your saddle. Tie it so the finishing square knot is in back, one end should be about 6’ long the other 2’, make a loop in the short leg and tie a snap onto the long leg. This is your lanyard.

Cut 100’ off. This will be your climbing line.

Find a likely tree, one with well-spaced branches starting 10’ or 12’ off of the ground. Approach with caution, they are dangerous. Never trust a tree. You are about to go into harms way, and if you don’t pay attention and follow instructions you will die or become crippled. Make sure the tree is healthy and strong, no carpenter ants or exposed roots. No bees or squirrel nests, No power lines. 

Tie a small locked coil in the climbing line and throw it over a good stout limb. Untie the coils. Tie the line to the snap, leave 3’ of tail. Attach the snap to your saddle, just below your navel. Now use the 3’ tail to tie a rolling hitch around the standing line. Your all tied in.

Pull down on the standing part while pushing the rolling hitch up the line. Stand on your tippy toes; pull the line up as tight as you can. Now sit down, you should be suspended a couple of feet off of the ground. 

Put your feet on the tree, grab the standing line with your secondary hand, and grab the knot with your primary. Now this is tricky so pay attention. You must simultaneously pull down with your secondary hand, push the knot up with your primary, and thrust your pelvis forward/up. You should be able to gain a few inches, as you get better at it you will go faster.

Repeat this process until you are up to your tie in point. Take a rest, you earned it. Now grab the rolling hitch and massage it down, slow and easy. You will fall a little bit, but as soon as you let go of the knot you should stop, there, try it again, get the feel of it and come down.

You just climbed your first tree. It will have been painful, very much so. Get used to it, there is plenty more to come. 

I don’t expect you to start this way, very few people do anymore, the lure of jingle and comfort is too much to resist. I only write about it so you know there are options. The work can be done without 2000$ worth of stuff. 

The real important things to learn about trees and tree work are very subtle and easily overlooked. The less you bring up there with you the more you will be able to absorb from the trees themselves. If you drown yourself in kit and jingle you may miss them entirely.

Pain doesn’t necessarily mean you are being damaged.
Why is tree time different than ground time? How does this affect your work?
What does violence look like in tree time? 
What does a healthy tree look and feel like? What about an injured or dead tree?
Is there a difference in the way you feel while climbing trees of different species? Why is this so? What is the difference between fear and caution? What does it feel like when you’re killing a tree? Does the energy come from you or from the tree? 



Good luck.


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## Diesel JD (Oct 8, 2005)

I played at it sort of this way a few years ago....and I got to have a much greater respect for arborists, especially those of you who know how to clim without spikes...I can also see how you could get hurt or killed if you're not cautious or ignorant. Here's what I had in hand to play with.... 1 basic saddle can't remember teh brand! about 75' of 1/2" safety blue rope...eventually got 120' of Samson arbor plex from Baileys, then made a flipline out of a heavy chain.....which I know would be deadly around power lines...but I was never remotely close to them so don't worry. I just threw the rope with a throwball over a likely limb or crotch and pulled myself up with the rope. What I didn't liek about this technique was it was very hard going and the rope would seem to scar the tree, and I didn't like that. Also the friction on teh rope seemed unacceptable(i.e. possible dangerous failure down the line). I really just played at this....never did any seriosu tree work. Furthest I've ever been up is maybe 40 or 50' in a laurel oak or spruce pine. Did trim a couple of low loblollys and a spruce this way...but like I said, mostly what I learned was how much I didn't know...


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## darkstar (Oct 8, 2005)

???? diesel you freakin survived bro you got what it takes........ good on you dark ps... u aint no troll r u ?


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 9, 2005)

Corey,

I can't believe anyone would advise someone to use three strand for arbo work except for maybe a flipline. Three strand went out of use for climbing line 20 years ago. Look in any supply catalog. Does anyone even sell it?

If someone wanted to learn about fishing would you start them with a cane pole, safety pin and a cork bobber? I think not. 

In time it is good to know how to tie a rope saddle. But what's the point of starting someone out that way? Do you want to discourage them?


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Oct 9, 2005)

This is probaly the thread to ask in but what do SRT and the other one DRT mean? single line and double line? Whats the advantages/disavatages of each? 

I use rope over branch and with one side connected to the harness with a double bowline/spliced eye and connect to the other side with a blakes hitch on a split tale.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 9, 2005)

SRT=single rope technique. The rope is anchored and doesn't move, the climber moves up and down on the rope.

DdRT=doubled rope technique. The traditional arbo way of climbing. The rope is "doubled" over an anchor point. One end terminates on the saddle and the other has a friction hitch/device to allow the climber to move up and down the rope. The rope moves and the climber moves.

DRT=double rope technique. A climbing system where two seperate ropes are used. A climber could use DRT and use either SRT or DdRT on either leg of the system.

Too often arbos say that they climb on double rope since that is what people have called DdRT for many years. More correctly, it is DdRT.

There has been a lot of bandwith dedicated to SRT/DdRT threads. Instead of rehashing the same things, take some time to go back through the archives here and Tr**buzz.


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## J_Ashley (Oct 9, 2005)

In the tree climbers companion, it talks about ANSI standards requiring two lifelines when using a chainsaw; I assume it's talking about the DRT here? So when using the DdRT or SRT you should only use a hand saw/pruner correct?

Justin


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## BostonBull (Oct 9, 2005)

Two lifelines= a line tied in for climbing..DRT DdRT SRT etc etc...AND a Lanyard or another of the **RT.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 9, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> SRT=single rope technique. The rope is anchored and doesn't move, the climber moves up and down on the rope.
> 
> DdRT=doubled rope technique. The traditional arbo way of climbing. The rope is "doubled" over an anchor point. One end terminates on the saddle and the other has a friction hitch/device to allow the climber to move up and down the rope. The rope moves and the climber moves.
> 
> DRT=double rope technique. A climbing system where two seperate ropes are used. A climber could use DRT and use either SRT or DdRT on either leg of the system.


You fail to mention DbRT, where, like SRT, the rope doesn't move. The two lines are parallel and the ends are on the ground. The crotch or limb experiences practically zero friction, just pressure. You ascend up the dual lines, you work off the dual lines. DbRT. A lot of practical advantages, but beyond the land of the friction hitch.


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## darkstar (Oct 9, 2005)

you guys are goona have him so confused with all this srt dbrt mtv tv .. come on down here bro we need fresh meat :blob5:


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## Tree Machine (Oct 9, 2005)

*Different schools*

No, it's simple.

DbRT old school
DdRT new school
SRT the entire world of climbing and aerial disciplines except Treeguys.



Supernoob, I do think you should enroll at Camp Darkstar, I mean, if you're really serious. Spiking the learning curve for sure. Better go do some gym time before you go down.


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## JonnyHart (Oct 9, 2005)

As far as I know, SRT is only used for entry to the tree.


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## Dadatwins (Oct 9, 2005)

darkstar said:


> you guys are goona have him so confused with all this srt dbrt mtv tv .. come on down here bro we need fresh meat :blob5:



 25 years in the biz and I'm freakin confused, leave the kid alone guys and let him learn some basics before you scare him off.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 9, 2005)

*boil it down*

Knowing what climbing options are out there is step one. Choosing one of them is step two. Don't be cornfuzed


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## Tree Machine (Oct 9, 2005)

JonnyHart said:


> As far as I know, SRT is only used for entry to the tree.


Troll. You so funny. SRT is up, down and all around, with half the rope weight and bulk. 1:1 climbing. Pure.


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## Diesel JD (Oct 10, 2005)

No I'm not a troll, I actually did that stuff, and I'm kind of itching to get back in the trees. I got discouraged cause I saw this technique was dangerous and I didn't want to use the spikes on live trees, plus not being a pro had a bit of trouble paying that kind of coin for something I might use very occaisonally. The advanced, no spike rope climbing techniques some here use are cool. I'd love to learn.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 10, 2005)

They're not as advanced as you might think. Start with the easy, work up to the advanced. Either way gets you up and around a crown and down. If you make it more difficutlt in your mind than what it is, then it's difficult and you're apprehensive in approaching the stuff.

Keep it boiled down to the least common denominator. You are controlling friction, either working with it, or overcoming it entirely. There's just a number (3) of rope methods that offer different ways of dominating and precisely controlling friction. That's all it is, passing your rope through SOMETHING to control your vertical movement.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 10, 2005)

SRT in treework is a growing genre. More and more people are looking at the advantages for ascent always and working sometimes. 

Whenever I have a new variation on my SRT setup it gets worked over with both feet on the ground first. After some trials I go up in the tree and make sure that I tie backup knots in my climbing line.

Using SRT to ascend should be a basic skill. There are SOOOO many advantages over any other access technique. If the climbers that poo-poo SRT were taught SRT and not traditional access techniques back in the day, they would be able to see the advantages I'm sure. When I've taught new climbers tree access they will always, on their own, choose SRT over any other technique.


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## darkstar (Oct 10, 2005)

Hmm,,,,,, tom,, my best climber chooses srt, but im way faster on take downs on big canopies over houses no bucket or crane ,,,,,,, than him ... i like srt ... but im faster with double ropes any day ...ps maybe i feel,, more falsely ,,, at ease DARK


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## rbtree (Oct 11, 2005)

Hey, this isn't tree climbing, but hey....check out darkstar hanging it out on this wicked roof..incredibly difficult is how it looks, at 5.13d, it's 4-5 points down from the current hardest rated climbs....well, unless a 5.15 a or b has been done.

Dark, how steep is the wall where the bolt is? I'm guessing 75-85 degrees? I'm trying to figure your next moves to reach it and clip in...


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## darkstar (Oct 11, 2005)

Rb tree we all know that aint ???? to a hard rotten tree over a house now with no truck acess but ,it is SRT in a way [donk] .... how many of yall hand jam tree crotches ... that s somthing this new fellow needs to learn ... so bring it on down ..Dark


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Oct 11, 2005)

This SRT intrests me greatly, how does it work? how do you set an achor, how do you climb the rope?

I take it double croching is using DbRT twice rather than true DRT?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 11, 2005)

Does this help?


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## tophopper (Oct 11, 2005)

Nice helmet!


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## rbtree (Oct 11, 2005)

darkstar said:


> Rb tree we all know that aint ???? to a hard rotten tree over a house now with no truck acess but ,it is SRT in a way [donk] .... how many of yall hand jam tree crotches ... that s somthing this new fellow needs to learn ... so bring it on down ..Dark



Ahh, but you're modest.

Yurp, guilty as charged...any time I see some jam opp's, I just gotta use 'em....

now if we break out a full rack o hexes and cams.....hmmmmm


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## darkstar (Oct 11, 2005)

thats funny as heck .. yo that crazy hackberry i took don recently was freaky ... i but a thro line in it and use a ladder to acess the trunk wherby i hand jammed up the crack that was the split in the wind damaged tree . i then installed a 20,000 test line and pulled the tree together with a 4 ton come along and a pulley ... left the tree sitting for one week and came back to do the take down . when i got to the crack where i had hand jammed i could now stick my whole leg in it . not good huh . it was cracking to the side about ready to twist off . i got it down but my groundies said my knees were knocking they are still teasing me about that . hand jams are good in trees hey ? dark


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## Tree Machine (Oct 11, 2005)

All jams, for that matter.


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Oct 11, 2005)

The tree climbers compainion can somebody give me the authors and an ISBN number please so i can go and order it at the book shop.


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## kf_tree (Oct 11, 2005)

rbtree said:


> Hey, this isn't tree climbing, but hey....check out darkstar hanging it out on this wicked roof..incredibly difficult is how it looks, at 5.13d, it's 4-5 points down from the current hardest rated climbs....well, unless a 5.15 a or b has been done.
> 
> Dark, how steep is the wall where the bolt is? I'm guessing 75-85 degrees? I'm trying to figure your next moves to reach it and clip in...



rb

you got the pic's upside down man........


nice shotz


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## pantheraba (Oct 11, 2005)

Mr_Brushcutter said:


> The tree climbers compainion can somebody give me the authors and an ISBN number please so i can go and order it at the book shop.



Check at Sherrill's...this book has an incredible amount of info:

http://www.wtsherrill.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit

Tree Climbers Companion/2nd Edition / Jeff Jepson 

$ 14.00 

"This compact field reference and training manual for tree climbers is the ideal partner for all tree workers. "


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## JimL (Oct 11, 2005)

THe tree climber's companion
Jeff Jepson
ISBN 0-615-11290-0


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## Tree Machine (Oct 11, 2005)

Tell us when the info gets to be too much.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 11, 2005)

Go to the articles page here if you'd like to read my article on SRT. There are many threads on SRT on AS and TB.

http://tinyurl.com/axwso

TH,

That helmet is made from a new version of Kevlar. It's the soft unwoven fiber 

I think that a given climber would be faster in a tree using SRT than DdRT. Compare the climber not the system.

When I was making the transition off of pruning on spikes, my Evil Tom days...long ago in a galaxy far, far away...I took rock climbing lessons from a friend. the movement classes really helped me to become a better tree climber. There are many moves that could be used in trees.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 12, 2005)

What Tom says is true, not about the unwoven Kevlar helmet..... ya know, I had evil days, long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. I became an outcast from the planet Nohelmetron. I was trying to pitch the benefits of using helmets. I was laughed at, shunned and ousted not only from the planet, but from their entire solar system. How I got to indianapolis, I'm still not sure.

But I am a hemeted dude these days. 

Tom says faster on SRT, and I agree, and I'll share why.

Of the three methods, DdRT DbRT and SRT, the latter two are identical except for the number of lines in front of your face. You handle friction on the two parallel lines as if they were one, which makes transitioning between the latter two exceedingly easy. Both are 1:1 climbing. You control 100% of the friction somewhere between face-level and saddle level.


DdRT, the style that 99.999% of all treeguys use is a 2:1 system where the trees limb, crotch or friction saver acts as a pulley. You pull two feet of rope downward, you go up _one_ foot. I call this a mechanical disadvantage; you have to put twice the motion in ascending DdRT to get the same distance with the same motion climbing DbRT or SRT. Also, because the limb or crotch is a 'pulley', there is friction there working for or against you. However, it is variable friction, different on every tree, different between wet and dry, different between 11 mm and 13 mm ropes. This variable friction changes depending on diameter of the limb or crotch, the type of bark and the coating on your rope.

Between the friction up there, and your friction hitch, that's how you control friction. Since DdRT is a 2:1 system, one leg of the system takes half your weight, the other leg takes the other half. One leg goes down, the other leg goes up. You apply your friction hitch to the leg going down, footlocking that line, advancing yourself. Every pull you're expending double motion for single distance and working against the friction up in the crotch. This friction takes up some of your weight also, if we assume 20% overall, then the friction hitch is only responsible for 40% of your weight. You also have to push the friction hitch along which, if clinched tight, if there is any friction at all (resistance) then as you push it up, it pushes you down (physics, man. Every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) and you add to all that friction the force of gravity. 

DdRT when looked at this way becomes not such a good deal, from the standpoint of energy, and motion. There's a whole lot more friction and movement happening than needs to be happening.


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## Tree Machine (Oct 12, 2005)

SRT and DbRT, on the other hand, these are 1:1 systems . If one foot of rope goes down past you, you have ascended up one foot. Generally speaking, you clip on an ascender, which is essentially frictionless and very lightweight and up you go. Hence, _faster_. You've taken the unknown friction variable (rope/crotch) out of the equation, as well as the 2:1 motion loss. That's a major speed advantage, just there in those two things alone. But there's more.

In SRT/DbRT you control 100% of the friction on the rope(s) right in front of you, so there's a major difference and something to get used to. There is no friction at the crotch since there is no rope movement over the crotch. Less rope wear, no need for a friction saver. Control can be more precise since 100% of the control is in front of your belly, all you do is master your ability to control 100% of the friction, 100% of the time and enjoy the 1:1 motion advantage. Welcome to new-school climbing. 

SRT is the same technique as search and rescue, rock climbing, tower climbing, fire and emergengy, caving and search and rescue. DbRT, double the rope, double the fun. That's why they make dual ascenders. It's SRT in all aspects once you're on rope, except SRT has one end of the rope anchored, where on DbRT, both ends are free-hanging and on the ground.

Does this sort out the differences?

Seems like a lot to digest, but that's the Cliff Notes version of _Tree Climbing Methods_, chapter one. You WILL be qizzed on this.


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 15, 2005)

*en courage ment*

Maybe he will become discouraged; if that is the case then perhaps he isn’t meant to climb trees for a living. These young guys see only the brightness; the respect that a good climber gets from his or her peers, the money that it is possible to make, the exciting interesting days climbing about in ancient living creatures. And so, it is with this mind-set that they go forth into the business of working in trees.

The reality of tree work is more in depth. Climbing and cutting trees for money is brutal, dangerous work. Even on a good day there can be bumps and bruises and scrapes and blood. A bad day ends in the hospital. Before spending a bunch of cash and getting all excited about a brilliant future these guys need to understand what it is they are getting into. 

My sister was home a few years back with her kids and boyfriend. He ended up working a few days with me to help pay for the trip. Kid was a terrific worker, paid attention, stayed out of the way when he didn’t understand what needed to be done, was right there moving brush when he knew it was “safe” to do so. I mentioned that if they wanted to move up this way I could use some more help. “How long does it take to learn how to climb?” he asks. I was a little shocked by his query, but I told him what Rory told me, “3 to 5 years and that only after spending a year or two on the ground. That’s just the basics, simple pruning, and the straight forward removals.”

Well, I guess he didn’t believe me. He went back to North Carolina, googled “tree climb” and ordered a bunch of gear from Sherrill. The goods arrive and so he puts his saddle on and proceeds to climb 35’ into an oak tree living in the back yard. He gets to the top and ties in, looks around and thinks ‘this isn’t so hard.’ Then the limb breaks and he falls the 35’ to terra firma, breaking his hip in 3 places, dislocating a shoulder, and suffering some other injuries. 

I cried when I heard the story. Blinking cursor, and brain freeze. I’m going to make some breakfast… I don’t believe that an emotional response makes a thing more or less true / relevant, maybe they are designed to make us pay attention.

Concerning gear; comfort, ease of operation, safety; these are the qualities that sell, and so the ads paint pictures that make this seem to be the case. For the most part it is, the manufacturers have come a long way in all of those areas. What they obscure is the fundamental truth about our trade, that the work itself is the antithesis of comfort, safety, and ease. 

In starting with the bare minimum of tools, all of the glossy photo’s, and the pretty, soft, happily colored, synthetics; the encouraging words and supportive faces, all of the “fluff” disappears. What’s left is a single man and a tree, the man will learn how to interact with the tree. He will become more like the creature he has chosen to climb in; hard, slow to take notice of things that don’t matter, imbued with an awful will to live and understanding of the mind-set that makes us likely to live through adversity.

If a prospective climber does not reach that point, if he becomes discouraged, then maybe it is best if he stays on the ground, or climbs trees for fun on the weekends. But to throw a fella into a phone booth with a bunch of kit and have him come out all dressed like superman… ‘Maybe he thinks heeee’s JOHHN WAAYNE.’

Lots of people making money sending these kids into trees to do “work”, selling the idea that trees need to be worked on. Lots of people making money selling the kids gear to go out and do the work. Also many people making money “teaching” kids how to climb trees. Lots of money. Well heck, its fun climbing trees and its fun making money, why not combine the two.

I try not to encourage people to do tree work. If it is their calling, then no encouragement is necessary; they will become aware of the trade in their own way and time. If a person commits himself to the long, arduous process of becoming a tree man, well, then it becomes their business. They will be able to make a good living for themselves. If a person also wants to learn about marketing and sales and inc. they can make a good pile of money.

But were I to send a noob into the canopy with a thousand dollars worth of false security and a zubat, well, I would fear for my karma. lol 

Does that qualify as encouragement or discouragement?


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## Tree Machine (Oct 15, 2005)

Just the rock-solid truth of the matter, Corey. Thanks.


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## PRUNER 1 (Oct 15, 2005)

a rant, but a worthy one and oh so true!!!!


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## J_Ashley (Oct 16, 2005)

Corey that sounds like a fair warning. I guess that is what I need most right now- to be shown the truth about tree climbing and the tree buisness. I have a short background as a firewood cutter and small engine mechanic, nothing more. The concept of tree care and tree climbing does interest me, but I realize there's a lot I don't know; things I won't possibly see without being in the buisness. Like I said, any help/advice is welcome. Any.

Justin


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## Bodean (Oct 20, 2005)

Get a small tree. Get some gear ( northwest floating D ) a rope, and a snap. Learn a knot, climb up and tie-in , then come back down slow. Get a friend to show you new neat stuff like all the catalog stuff. It's an evolution of thoughts and experiences rolled into one. An uncanny sense of Danger is very rewarding to develop as well.

Learn what the word "headache" means.

Climbing is crazy in a rain storm, or lightning, or just a beautiful sunny day on top of a hill looking down at the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay. 

Climb for fun. Climbing for money brings risky edgey cuts. My personal favorite is the irate ego maniac boss that screams.

I could talk about climbing all day long.

Bodean


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## Bodean (Oct 20, 2005)

Reading that from above makes sense I loved It. The tree should call you up in it. Seriously spending time on the ground is so important. I spent 3 years on the ground before I started climbing. Need to know yer knots, Saws, ropes, terminology, rythum, develop a sense of impending doom. Crap here you got to know spanish. I am red haired honky white and speak guatemalan as well as them. You see that's the major ground force here,

Off the topic but.........

Here the tree business owner or bidder shows up and shines the homeowner then a couple of days later this truck shows up with like 5 non english speaking folks running around with loppers. Latin lopper disease. The bidder or owner isn't there to communicate with the crew and the homeowner is unable to control or communicate with the "tree" crew. The homeowner watches in horror as the future unfolds. And the work well seems alittle sub-par. I'll post some pictures I take driving around. Topped Palms. Topped eucalyptus. "oh the tree will come right back it just stepped out for a moment". Anyway maybe no one sees the humor. 

Back on topic............

Climbing trees is the unknown. Failure. Rope fails. Accidently cut yer tie-in. Cut your thigh drop starting a 372 hanging in the tree. Better yet your knot burns out because you didn't snug it up and you fly. Your spurs slip out of the wood at a bad point in time and your un-prepared. Your ground guy cant let the thing run past you and smacks you with false crotch wood in the knees. Tons of fun. I love it. Big swings. Big trees. Someone telling me that I cant do it. only pushes my head that much harder into the stone.

Bodean


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