# Dangerous barber chair felling ash infected with emerald ash borer



## kdjacob2000

Howdy.

New member. First post.

I've been taking down mature ash trees on my property dead on dying from the emerald ash borer. 

Yesterday, I had a classic barber chair occur as one of the trees went down. See pix. 

1 of 4: showing big tall barber chair from direction of fall.
2 of 4: showing my hinge, which looks good (thickness = 10% of DBH).
3 of 4: behind the hinge, which also looks good.
4 of 4: showing how far back from the stump the tree fell, YIKES!

This is why you clear your escape route, put your saw down when the tree starts falling, and walk briskly away.

(I'm Level IV in Game of Logging).

My question to the community here is whether EOB infection makes ash trees more prone to barber chairing. I know they're uncommonly dry and long-straight-grained, but I've felled a lot of them over the years and never had this happen.

I love ash for firewood and the woodshop but I'm not into big danger, and this one scared me.

Any thoughts?


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## Karrl

As far as I understand as soon as soon as The tree starts to die it will rapidly begin to dry rot, causing the tree to harden and become brittle. This process moves quickly and begins before it looks like the tree is dead. Eab might make it worse than a normal die off but it’s just the nature of the wood in the tree.


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## Jed1124

EAB certainly makes trees brittle but in this case it looks like your face was too shallow.


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## Jed1124

Welcome aboard and happy to see that you made it away from that tree unscathed.


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## kdjacob2000

I use a 70-degree face, cut to 80% of the diameter of the tree. This is what we are taught in the Swedish Game of Logging.


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## lwmibc

It will be interesting to see what the experienced fallers say, but that looks to be more than one tree. Which means nothing 'classic' about that barber-chair; this diverted from anything that could be called standard.


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## northmanlogging

First off, SSD GOL (Swedish Stump Dance/Goon of Logging) has its place, but its a narrow sighted ridged set of rules for falling timber, while some of it makes sense, other parts of it will get you in trouble, trees fight back and don't care about what ever rules you learned in your weekend logger course. After all the trees don't read Swedish or English, and are belligerent and vengeful assholes, bent on the destruction of all of mans works. 

From what I understand Ash is just a PITA chair prone tree no matter what you do, dead and dry? does its split easier green or seasoned? the equivalent we have out here is Alder, which is most dangerous when green and the sap is running, it hardens up a lot when dead standing, though it can still kill you. 

As for critiquing your stumps, face cut to shallow i.e. not deep enough which on a leaner means you have to blast through that much more wood before it tips giving the tree that much more time to stall, and then chair, granted you don't want to go as deep as a straight tree, but considerably more then ya did, then consider boring and leaving a safety strap, (as GOL teaches to do on every ****ing tree) or better, bore the guts of the hold wood, leaving wood on each side, though on this one, if you had cut a little deeper you would of been well into the rotten core, and not needed to... 

Now, as for leaving safety straps, I rarely do so, but will if its super sketchy, the benefit is it gives you a head start on vacating the area, however, your other cuts have to be correct or it can still chair, or worse you over cut the hold wood and the tree crushes it and pinches your saw (this realllllllllyyyyyyy sucks btw) which is bad in all sorts of ways, not just pinching the bar but it also compromises the integrity of the hold wood.... 

Anyway, next time take a little more on the face... it will solve most of the issues.


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## kdjacob2000

I really appreciate the technical advice. That's what I came looking for. 

I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of how a shallow face cut translates to "giving the tree that much more time to stall". I do understand how a shallow face cut translates to more force required if I'm using wedges at the back (tree straight or back leaner).

Attacking Game of Logging, Sweden, and weekend logging classes is a real turn off. If this is a forum only for tree professionals from famous logging states (I love Washington) I've clearly come to the wrong place.


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## Brufab

So the face cut is cut 70-80% into the tree?


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## buzz sawyer

In my experience, if the Ash is dead standing with bark on, it will rot more quickly. If the bark is blown off from wind or other cause, it holds up much better. I had one Ash barber chair and since then have bore-cut every one that had a hint of lean.


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## buzz sawyer

Brufab said:


> So the face cut is cut 70-80% into the tree?


80% of the diameter. For a 20" diameter, cut in to where it is 16" wide.


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## kdjacob2000

Here's a little more detail on how we're taught to make the face cut.


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## Brufab

buzz sawyer said:


> 80% of the diameter. For a 20" diameter, cut in to where it is 16" wide.


Is that normal? I think I have been making my face cut depth at around 30% of the diameter.


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## kdjacob2000

For clarity, I used a bore cut on this (and virtually every other) tree.


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## Brufab

This is what I have been taught


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## uniballer

I like a 90 degree open face for my ash trees. In my experience a healthy ash tree rarely breaks off the stump, and has to be cut loose. This is different from my other species: pignut and shagbark hickory, various maples, yellow birch, and black locust. Now that my ash trees have EAB all bets are off, and I try to cut them while they are still green.

I haven't taken GOL, but I do use the open face almost all the time, and I bore cut when I think it is necessary. I have learned over the years that sometimes a shallow face cut to 80% of diameter is not really enough (especially if the tree is not round). Of course, too deep a face causes other problems.


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## northmanlogging

kdjacob2000 said:


> I really appreciate the technical advice. That's what I came looking for.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of how a shallow face cut translates to "giving the tree that much more time to stall". I do understand how a shallow face cut translates to more force required if I'm using wedges at the back (tree straight or back leaner).
> 
> Attacking Game of Logging, Sweden, and weekend logging classes is a real turn off. If this is a forum only for tree professionals from famous logging states (I love Washington) I've clearly come to the wrong place.


GOL, as I stated, is a very narrow set of rules, and therefore limiting, which is simply wrong and deserves derision, is it a good course for the average homeowner, sure, it does provide some much needed situational awareness, but it teaches one and only one way to cut a tree, and this is patently false. 
It also tends to get folks set in their ways so they refuse to look at things any other way, which isn't necessarily a fault of GOL its just human nature. 
As I tried to make clear via humor before, trees don't care, every tree is different, they fight back and they fight dirty, using the same set of rules with every tree will eventually lead to failure. To respond to natures forces you have to be able to adapt and have a "tool box" of other tricks and processes. 

as for attacking Sweden, I am not, GOL is the product of one rather self righteous Swede who has made a great deal of money promoting the fact that he is a "Swedish Logger" and therefore should be taken seriously, hence the term SSD (Personally I have my doubts about his logging credentials, especially since Sweden is largely mechanically harvested, and has been for a rather long time) 

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with homeowners and weekend warriors taking a few classes to better prepare themselves and be more safe in the woods, or at anything. The problem arises when the classes are taught in a way that creates hard and fast rules, when in reality, there are no hard and fast rules. There are simply rules of thumb, i.e. all depending on perspective and current limiting factors. A couple days here and there of playing with a chainsaw under supervision, does not make anyone a professional timber beast, but it certainly gives a great deal of folks the idea, and unfortunately the confidence to act like they are a big bad logger, which is a very very dangerous attitude to have in the woods.


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## Rob Stafari

Brufab said:


> Is that normal? I think I have been making my face cut depth at around 30% of the diameter.


The GOL teaches 80% of the width of the tree if you are looking at it from the notch side. Others say 30% deep notch if you are looking at it from either side of the notch. Normal depends on who you learned from and where you are from.


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## kenmbz

Having done a few dozen Ash now and had at least 4 do big barberchairs.
I am moving towards plunge cuts for any leaning in the direction I want to fell.
Taking branches down so they don't fall on me is also critical.
Rope is our friend
No climbing, impossible to tell what is green and what is dust.

No face cut seems to fix this issue so far. Split can happen many feet above the cut !
I even had one throw a slab off the back. A good reason to be 45 deg off center.


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## kenmbz

One of the many barberchairs.


One of the self splits over 10' up.
Many trees fall in weird ways as they split off in directions other than lean!


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## gflyingsquirrel

kdjacob2000 said:


> Howdy.
> 
> New member. First post.
> 
> I've been taking down mature ash trees on my property dead on dying from the emerald ash borer.
> 
> Yesterday, I had a classic barber chair occur as one of the trees went down. See pix.
> 
> 1 of 4: showing big tall barber chair from direction of fall.
> 2 of 4: showing my hinge, which looks good (thickness = 10% of DBH).
> 3 of 4: behind the hinge, which also looks good.
> 4 of 4: showing how far back from the stump the tree fell, YIKES!
> 
> This is why you clear your escape route, put your saw down when the tree starts falling, and walk briskly away.
> 
> (I'm Level IV in Game of Logging).
> 
> My question to the community here is whether EOB infection makes ash trees more prone to barber chairing. I know they're uncommonly dry and long-straight-grained, but I've felled a lot of them over the years and never had this happen.
> 
> I love ash for firewood and the woodshop but I'm not into big danger, and this one scared me.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Im a power line hazard tree faller in Santa Cruz and any tree or large branch with some lean can barber and should be bore cut. Face cut doesnt really matter if theres enough lean to barber. Theres better vids on Youtube but Im not cutting timber for $ so I like a High angle top cut to keep the tree steady all the way down and have a good look at how good my holding wood is. With a diseased tree a shallow face is often best as the sapwood is more flexible. For the backcut you bore in (about an inch or two above the bottom of the face) begin in about the middle of the back cut with the lower quadrant of the tip of the bar, plunge through, now carefully come up to the face leaving your hinge set up perfect now back out leaving at least 10% sound wood at the back of the tree. If there is side lean you may want to start in the back strap and as you work up to the face set some wedges. Then you can either just keep going out the back or pull out, set wedges and hit the back strap under full power a tiny bit above your bore cut. Be ready to run 'cause shes gonna go quick. Voila, safe falling brother! I dont know if its a game when losing means dying. Heres a video with everything you need to know


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## Patrick1903

northmanlogging said:


> First off, SSD GOL (Swedish Stump Dance/Goon of Logging) has its place, but its a narrow sighted ridged set of rules for falling timber, while some of it makes sense, other parts of it will get you in trouble, trees fight back and don't care about what ever rules you learned in your weekend logger course.


Is there another equivalent type of course that you (or others) prefer?


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## JimR

buzz sawyer said:


> In my experience, if the Ash is dead standing with bark on, it will rot more quickly. If the bark is blown off from wind or other cause, it holds up much better. I had one Ash barber chair and since then have bore-cut every one that had a hint of lean.


I had a lot of nice Ash trees on our property. Mine are being hit by an Ash blight. Usually within 1 - 2 years the bark is falling off. The trees are still great firewood for another 2 years. I'm up in central New England. I still have a lot more in the dying process to remove and cut up for firewood.


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## Patrick1903

softdown said:


> That seems like a tremendous amount of cutting unless I misunderstand.


I believe he was saying his first cut, at a 20 degree angle from vertical, is equal in length to 80% of the diameter of the tree. The depth of the apex of the notch is not 80% of diameter. It appears more like 20% diameter depth of the apex. That's how I was following this...might be wrong though.


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## kenmbz

JimR - It's not a blight, it's Emerald Ash Borer, look for D shaped exit holes and bark falling off in large chips.
[SIZE=4][B][FONT=arial]gflyingsquirrel[/FONT][/B][/SIZE] - that video is pretty much how I did the last two. *No* Baberchairs.​I like how he rode the wedge, I will need to try that! I used smaller wedges on both sides.​


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## holeycow

Worksafe BC faller training videos will teach everything you need to know. Except experience, which is the most valuable knowledge of all.


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## Cricket

kjorrrits said:


> As far as I understand as soon as soon as The tree starts to die it will rapidly begin to dry rot, causing the tree to harden and become brittle. This process moves quickly and begins before it looks like the tree is dead. Eab might make it worse than a normal die off but it’s just the nature of the wood in the tree.


I've got a (thankfully small one) hung up between the side of the barn, a rope I had my john boat tied upright with, and another tree, that had leaves last year, and is dry rot this year - I'll get a pic of it at some point, it's sort of a weird deal, physics-wise. Literally didn't know it was sick, until last fall, and it's twice as collapsed now as it was then. Just boom bam bing - dead and falling. They scare the hell out of me.


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## softdown

gflyingsquirrel said:


> Im a power line hazard tree faller in Santa Cruz and any tree or large branch with some lean can barber and should be bore cut. Face cut doesnt really matter if theres enough lean to barber. Theres better vids on Youtube but Im not cutting timber for $ so I like a High angle top cut to keep the tree steady all the way down and have a good look at how good my holding wood is. With a diseased tree a shallow face is often best as the sapwood is more flexible. For the backcut you bore in (about an inch or two above the bottom of the face) begin in about the middle of the back cut with the lower quadrant of the tip of the bar, plunge through, now carefully come up to the face leaving your hinge set up perfect now back out leaving at least 10% sound wood at the back of the tree. If there is side lean you may want to start in the back strap and as you work up to the face set some wedges. Then you can either just keep going out the back or pull out, set wedges and hit the back strap under full power a tiny bit above your bore cut. Be ready to run 'cause shes gonna go quick. Voila, safe falling brother! I dont know if its a game when losing means dying. Heres a video with everything you need to know



I was taught that the humboldt cut really helps determine the falling direction of a normal tree. So many schools of thought!


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## kenmbz

I was taught the Humboldt was to lower impact of the tree hitting the ground, thereby creating more sell-able wood.
It does lower impact, don't know how it would help with direction over conventional.
I use wedges to fall backleaners and control direction where needed. 
Ropes too. Never tried a jack, but have seen them used. 
There are a lot of cuts that do help control direction. I used one to roll the tree a bit sideways to miss another tree. Just a thicker hinge on one side, and thin on the other. Was nice watching the tree roll to the side and falling in the spot I needed it to.


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## Huntaholic

I went to the college of hardknocks, broken bones, & demolished saws. Theres ALL KINDS of things wrong with your cut honestly. Face cut WAY too shallow, notch cut way too steep, holding wood, or "hinge" way too flush across. Cutting ash is a dangerous game for the best of us, for novices it can be plain suicide. When I cut ash with ANY noticeable lean, my stumps are cut clean off with only a TINY TINY TINY bit of holding wood left on the trigger. In fact if its leaning bad enough, my trigger wood is just as apt to pull out of the stump by the roots on the backside before I touch the trigger. I cant really explain timber cutting like some folks on here, Im not a silver tongued devil, but I can show you how to do it and not get killed in the process HOPEFULLY.


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## Jhenderson

northmanlogging said:


> First off, SSD GOL (Swedish Stump Dance/Goon of Logging) has its place, but its a narrow sighted ridged set of rules for falling timber, while some of it makes sense, other parts of it will get you in trouble, trees fight back and don't care about what ever rules you learned in your weekend logger course. After all the trees don't read Swedish or English, and are belligerent and vengeful assholes, bent on the destruction of all of mans works.
> 
> From what I understand Ash is just a PITA chair prone tree no matter what you do, dead and dry? does its split easier green or seasoned? the equivalent we have out here is Alder, which is most dangerous when green and the sap is running, it hardens up a lot when dead standing, though it can still kill you.
> 
> As for critiquing your stumps, face cut to shallow i.e. not deep enough which on a leaner means you have to blast through that much more wood before it tips giving the tree that much more time to stall, and then chair, granted you don't want to go as deep as a straight tree, but considerably more then ya did, then consider boring and leaving a safety strap, (as GOL teaches to do on every ****ing tree) or better, bore the guts of the hold wood, leaving wood on each side, though on this one, if you had cut a little deeper you would of been well into the rotten core, and not needed to...
> 
> Now, as for leaving safety straps, I rarely do so, but will if its super sketchy, the benefit is it gives you a head start on vacating the area, however, your other cuts have to be correct or it can still chair, or worse you over cut the hold wood and the tree crushes it and pinches your saw (this realllllllllyyyyyyy sucks btw) which is bad in all sorts of ways, not just pinching the bar but it also compromises the integrity of the hold wood....
> 
> Anyway, next time take a little more on the face... it will solve most of the issues.


How many rimes do you need to be told, GOL Does Not teach leaving a backstrap on Every tree. They specifically teach one is Not required on any tree that needs wedging to fall in the desired direction. Try actually studying about a topic Before you make incorrect statements of fact.


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## buzz sawyer

gflyingsquirrel said:


> Im a power line hazard tree faller in Santa Cruz and any tree or large branch with some lean can barber and should be bore cut. Face cut doesnt really matter if theres enough lean to barber. Theres better vids on Youtube but Im not cutting timber for $ so I like a High angle top cut to keep the tree steady all the way down and have a good look at how good my holding wood is. With a diseased tree a shallow face is often best as the sapwood is more flexible. For the backcut you bore in (about an inch or two above the bottom of the face) begin in about the middle of the back cut with the lower quadrant of the tip of the bar, plunge through, now carefully come up to the face leaving your hinge set up perfect now back out leaving at least 10% sound wood at the back of the tree. If there is side lean you may want to start in the back strap and as you work up to the face set some wedges. Then you can either just keep going out the back or pull out, set wedges and hit the back strap under full power a tiny bit above your bore cut. Be ready to run 'cause shes gonna go quick. Voila, safe falling brother! I dont know if its a game when losing means dying. Heres a video with everything you need to know



Same procedure they show at the Paul Bunyan Shows. They also use a sight stick to determine the height and predict where the top will be when it falls.


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## buzz sawyer

JimR said:


> I had a lot of nice Ash trees on our property. Mine are being hit by an Ash blight. Usually within 1 - 2 years the bark is falling off. The trees are still great firewood for another 2 years. I'm up in central New England. I still have a lot more in the dying process to remove and cut up for firewood.


I try to slab as many large logs as I can - 25" +. It may go the way of the American Chestnut. This stuff doesn't grow on trees anymore.


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## northmanlogging

Patrick1903 said:


> Is there another equivalent type of course that you (or others) prefer?


D. Douglas Dent, The Art of Timber Falling, though its book form and getting harder to source as Mr. Dent has unfortunately vacated this plane. 

or easier to get Work Safe BC's course on timber falling, it should be available on the YouTube.


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## northmanlogging

as for humboldt/standard/birdsmouth.... 

all of them direct just as well as the other, each has its use, really the hinge/hold wood does the directing, the face cuts whichever type simply provide room for the stem to move. 

Standard is good if you are in open ground and would like a very low stump. Its also arguably the easiest to master, and therefore the most common, though I do see a whole bunch of folks taking ridiculous amounts out of the stem for what amounts to a very shallow face... a 45 degree opening is more then ample for 99% of the wood out there, yet you see many that are nearly 90 deg essentially just cutting the taper out of the stump...

Humboldt is good for getting the butt to hit first, as well as acting as a chock against back slip, and will allow a tree to "fly" especially if its a narrow face down hill, and if you want to do crazy stuff like soft dutch, or siswheel it works marginally better then standard, and it doesn't ruin marketable wood. There are a bunch of other things you can do with a humboldt too, like sniping, side shift, modified block face etc etc etc.

Birdsmouth is good if you have brittle short fiber wood and you want to be sure it goes where you intend, also handy in chair prone timber, though the effect is marginal. Essentially, its used for when you absolutely don't want the face to close up and stall thereby shearing the hold wood, or causing a chair. 

A forth unmentioned would be a block face, which is were the humboldt originated from, you take a full on square chunk out rather then a sloping cut, its really a lot of work to make happen so its rarely used unless on very big timber or if you want the butt to sit down on the stump and not tear up ground in front of said stump, can be handy for falling over paved or sensitive areas, though a modified humboldt, which is a normal humboldyt with a fat chunk takin out of the leading edge is a whole lot less work, and you don't need to be as accurate with the block cuts to get the same results.


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## mbrick

Many folks here with far more experience than me, but the face cut looks way too shallow. 10% or less?



northmanlogging said:


> D. Douglas Dent, The Art of Timber Falling, though its book form and getting harder to source as Mr. Dent has unfortunately vacated this plane.
> 
> or easier to get Work Safe BC's course on timber falling, it should be available on the YouTube.


Still available from Bailey's. I bought it from them several years ago – only place I was able to find it at the time.









Professional Timber Falling Book by Douglas Dent


Authored by Douglas Dent, this is a valuable book that will assist the novice timber faller, as well as those experienced in the field, to safely fall and buck trees.Covers everything from bars, chain and equipment, to directional forces, holding wood, side boring, notching, jacking, and problem...




www.baileysonline.com


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## lwmibc

I still don't get the question here. I went back to the OP's photos, and there definitely are two stems there, there is an obvious layer of bark between them shown in the notch cut. 95% of the notch has been cut in the smaller left stem, 5% in the main stem.

Then there was a back cut in the main stem that proceeded until *something* broke the main stem off, with a barber chair. I have no idea how the assembly held until the cut to the barber chair was made.

Perhaps the left stem was removed first, I don't know--but if it was, then there is insufficient notch in the main stem before the back cut was started. With that approach anything can--and did--happen.

I'm just not seeing any surprise here. It looks to me that there were two stems and they should have been taken down separately. What am I missing?


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## GrizG

northmanlogging said:


> GOL, as I stated, is a very narrow set of rules, and therefore limiting, which is simply wrong and deserves derision, is it a good course for the average homeowner, sure, it does provide some much needed situational awareness, but it teaches one and only one way to cut a tree, and this is patently false.
> It also tends to get folks set in their ways so they refuse to look at things any other way, which isn't necessarily a fault of GOL its just human nature.
> As I tried to make clear via humor before, trees don't care, every tree is different, they fight back and they fight dirty, using the same set of rules with every tree will eventually lead to failure. To respond to natures forces you have to be able to adapt and have a "tool box" of other tricks and processes.
> 
> as for attacking Sweden, I am not, GOL is the product of one rather self righteous Swede who has made a great deal of money promoting the fact that he is a "Swedish Logger" and therefore should be taken seriously, hence the term SSD (Personally I have my doubts about his logging credentials, especially since Sweden is largely mechanically harvested, and has been for a rather long time)
> 
> Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with homeowners and weekend warriors taking a few classes to better prepare themselves and be more safe in the woods, or at anything. The problem arises when the classes are taught in a way that creates hard and fast rules, when in reality, there are no hard and fast rules. There are simply rules of thumb, i.e. all depending on perspective and current limiting factors. A couple days here and there of playing with a chainsaw under supervision, does not make anyone a professional timber beast, but it certainly gives a great deal of folks the idea, and unfortunately the confidence to act like they are a big bad logger, which is a very very dangerous attitude to have in the woods.


Your comments all revolve around the first course in the Game of Logging program. It is true that GOL 1 focuses on the open face, bore cut, trigger technique. However, the complete program goes much deeper. For example, following is an excerpt from http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php

*Level 1* focuses on introducing the participant to open face felling and the development of techniques to safely use it. Topics covered include personal protective equipment, chainsaw safety features, chainsaw reactive forces, bore cutting, pre-planning the fell, and understanding hinge wood strength.
*Level 2* focuses on maximizing chainsaw performance through basic maintenance, carburetor setting, and filing techniques. Limbing and bucking techniques are introduced, spring pole cutting is covered and more felling is practiced.
*Level 3* focuses on techniques for handling difficult trees. Topics covered include limbing, height measurement, segment calculations, wedging techniques and hinge placement. The felling is done against the tree's natural lean and participants also limb and buck using techniques demonstrated in level II.
*Level 4* focuses on ways to maximize a harvest plan for safety and productivity. Felling is practiced at working speed using all the techniques from previous levels. This level is geared to the user group.

Storm Damage Training​
Game of Logging provides specialized training that addressed the unique hazards inherent in storm damaged settings. This training is meant to provide saw users the information and techniques demanded by this dangerous environment and the forces and pressures of wind felled trees.

*Demonstration & Hands-On Techniques: *Participants will be exposed to and have the opportunity to perform many of the following techniques during the day:

Limb-Loc
Top-Loc
Tongue & Groove
Axle Cut
Axle Loc
Notch Bucking & Directional Notch Bucking (Controlled Release Cut)
Roll Away Cut
Buck with Wedge
Flagging Hazards
Tab Cut
Oversized Log Buck
Dirty Log Bucking
Using ropes and mechanical advantage techniques
*Demonstration Only by GOL Trainer: *Participants will be exposed to these techniques, but will not necessarily perform them during training day:

Scissor-Cut - Show using wedge and if applicable rope and come-along option.
The release of extreme springpole tension.
"Pole in a Hole"
*Five Point Plan for Storm Damaged Trees:*

OVERHEAD HAZARDS!!
Hazards on the ground
Assess lean weight and pressure
Cutting technique or cut plan
Escape route


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## ra33it

kdjacob2000 said:


> Here's a little more detail on how we're taught to make the face cut.


It is my opinion your face cut is shallower than shown in the diagram.
It is my opinion your face cut is too shallow, or on the wrong side of the tree, for the amount of lean shown.
I've not cut ash, but I've argued with some nasty cottonwoods and alders, and they tend to rain a mess down on you when things go hairy. Stay safe out there.


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## MtbIdaho

northmanlogging said:


> GOL, as I stated, is a very narrow set of rules, and therefore limiting, which is simply wrong and deserves derision, is it a good course for the average homeowner, sure, it does provide some much needed situational awareness, but it teaches one and only one way to cut a tree, and this is patently false.
> It also tends to get folks set in their ways so they refuse to look at things any other way, which isn't necessarily a fault of GOL its just human nature.
> As I tried to make clear via humor before, trees don't care, every tree is different, they fight back and they fight dirty, using the same set of rules with every tree will eventually lead to failure. To respond to natures forces you have to be able to adapt and have a "tool box" of other tricks and processes.
> 
> as for attacking Sweden, I am not, GOL is the product of one rather self righteous Swede who has made a great deal of money promoting the fact that he is a "Swedish Logger" and therefore should be taken seriously, hence the term SSD (Personally I have my doubts about his logging credentials, especially since Sweden is largely mechanically harvested, and has been for a rather long time)
> 
> Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with homeowners and weekend warriors taking a few classes to better prepare themselves and be more safe in the woods, or at anything. The problem arises when the classes are taught in a way that creates hard and fast rules, when in reality, there are no hard and fast rules. There are simply rules of thumb, i.e. all depending on perspective and current limiting factors. A couple days here and there of playing with a chainsaw under supervision, does not make anyone a professional timber beast, but it certainly gives a great deal of folks the idea, and unfortunately the confidence to act like they are a big bad logger, which is a very very dangerous attitude to have in the woods.


Greetings from Idaho. I think some GOL techniques have their place in a tough spot… But boring every tree just because… seems dumb.


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## GrizG

I've felled many 100s, and perhaps over 1,000, dead ash over the past 7 years and haven't had a barber chair yet. I also felled a lot of snags that had broken off mid stem or where the top had broken off, and cut and bucked many fallen or leaning ash.

For the vast majority of the standing trees and snags I used the GOL technique, a short summery of which is: 70° open face notch the length of which is about 80% of the diameter, bore cut to establish the hinge, wedge, cut the trigger, pound wedges as needed. The trees I cut ranged from a few inches DBH up to about 30" DBH. They ranged from just barely alive to well decayed. Smaller trees generally didn't involve the bore cut. Some were back cut first, wedged and then notched. Limb locked trees were felled together. Some hazardous trees were knocked over with other trees. In some cases trees were left standing to be handled by nature when the dangers of cutting outweighed the risks of the tree falling on it's own. 

Assessing the condition and lean of each and every tree is important. The site hazards and targets need to be assessed. Escape routes need to be planned. Having different cutting techniques available in your skill set is important too.


----------



## Smitty Smithsonite

I'm in MA, too, and have several HUGE ash trees, all half dead or completely dead. They were this way 19 years ago when I moved in. I've been picking up the tops of them ever since, after every single wind event. We're west of Worcester, but still in the 508. Right in front of my house is a cluster of ash. Some are damned near 3' across. Never saw ones this big around here. The power co. marked them, so they'll be coming down at some point. Hopefully they don't land on my house, lol! Will be interesting to watch. I never dared touch them, since every sapling I've cut over there has landed on the phone wires. Had to drag it off with my plow truck!

They'll probably take them down from the top, just due to the huge liability.


----------



## MikeRock

northmanlogging said:


> GOL, as I stated, is a very narrow set of rules, and therefore limiting, which is simply wrong and deserves derision, is it a good course for the average homeowner, sure, it does provide some much needed situational awareness, but it teaches one and only one way to cut a tree, and this is patently false.
> It also tends to get folks set in their ways so they refuse to look at things any other way, which isn't necessarily a fault of GOL its just human nature.
> As I tried to make clear via humor before, trees don't care, every tree is different, they fight back and they fight dirty, using the same set of rules with every tree will eventually lead to failure. To respond to natures forces you have to be able to adapt and have a "tool box" of other tricks and processes.
> 
> as for attacking Sweden, I am not, GOL is the product of one rather self righteous Swede who has made a great deal of money promoting the fact that he is a "Swedish Logger" and therefore should be taken seriously, hence the term SSD (Personally I have my doubts about his logging credentials, especially since Sweden is largely mechanically harvested, and has been for a rather long time)
> 
> Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with homeowners and weekend warriors taking a few classes to better prepare themselves and be more safe in the woods, or at anything. The problem arises when the classes are taught in a way that creates hard and fast rules, when in reality, there are no hard and fast rules. There are simply rules of thumb, i.e. all depending on perspective and current limiting factors. A couple days here and there of playing with a chainsaw under supervision, does not make anyone a professional timber beast, but it certainly gives a great deal of folks the idea, and unfortunately the confidence to act like they are a big bad logger, which is a very very dangerous attitude to have in the woods.


Thank you....... I got criticized by a GOL'er. Nasty stumps, just big buttresses. She 'knew' this and that. She almost killed herself too..... too damned close.


----------



## GrizG

kdjacob2000 said:


> For clarity, I used a bore cut on this (and virtually every other) tree.


From looking at your stump, I have to agree with some of the other folks that the face cut isn't deep enough. This not for the sake of a deep face cut but from the perspective that the length of the face cut should be about 80% of the diameter of the tree when viewed from the face cut. Taking my best estimate from the 3rd photo in the series, it looks like the length of the hinge is closer to 60% of the diameter than to 80%. With the short hinge you have to "lift" more of the tree to get it to fall and I'm pretty sure that is where the barber chair was triggered. I suggest continuing to use the open face cut, increase your hinge length to about 80% and continue using the bore cut to establish the hinge. 

I don't know what saw you are using but for most of the better saws if you hold the handle bar in the curve the saw will naturally hang such that you will get about a 70° angle. Not the best camera angle perhaps but this image shows it in practice. Play with hand placement a bit and you'll find the sweet spot.... Make the top cut first and then the bottom cut (which should be horizontal/level) and meet the top cut without over cuts. Clean up the notch as needed to not have overcuts.


----------



## MikeRock

northmanlogging said:


> D. Douglas Dent, The Art of Timber Falling, though its book form and getting harder to source as Mr. Dent has unfortunately vacated this plane.
> 
> or easier to get Work Safe BC's course on timber falling, it should be available on the YouTube.


Timber Cutting Practices, Steve Conway, 1974.......has kept good men alive.


----------



## northmanlogging

GrizG said:


> Your comments all revolve around the first course in the Game of Logging program. It is true that GOL 1 focuses on the open face, bore cut, trigger technique. However, the complete program goes much deeper. For example, following is an excerpt from http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php
> 
> *Level 1* focuses on introducing the participant to open face felling and the development of techniques to safely use it. Topics covered include personal protective equipment, chainsaw safety features, chainsaw reactive forces, bore cutting, pre-planning the fell, and understanding hinge wood strength.
> *Level 2* focuses on maximizing chainsaw performance through basic maintenance, carburetor setting, and filing techniques. Limbing and bucking techniques are introduced, spring pole cutting is covered and more felling is practiced.
> *Level 3* focuses on techniques for handling difficult trees. Topics covered include limbing, height measurement, segment calculations, wedging techniques and hinge placement. The felling is done against the tree's natural lean and participants also limb and buck using techniques demonstrated in level II.
> *Level 4* focuses on ways to maximize a harvest plan for safety and productivity. Felling is practiced at working speed using all the techniques from previous levels. This level is geared to the user group.
> 
> Storm Damage Training​
> Game of Logging provides specialized training that addressed the unique hazards inherent in storm damaged settings. This training is meant to provide saw users the information and techniques demanded by this dangerous environment and the forces and pressures of wind felled trees.
> 
> *Demonstration & Hands-On Techniques: *Participants will be exposed to and have the opportunity to perform many of the following techniques during the day:
> 
> Limb-Loc
> Top-Loc
> Tongue & Groove
> Axle Cut
> Axle Loc
> Notch Bucking & Directional Notch Bucking (Controlled Release Cut)
> Roll Away Cut
> Buck with Wedge
> Flagging Hazards
> Tab Cut
> Oversized Log Buck
> Dirty Log Bucking
> Using ropes and mechanical advantage techniques
> *Demonstration Only by GOL Trainer: *Participants will be exposed to these techniques, but will not necessarily perform them during training day:
> 
> Scissor-Cut - Show using wedge and if applicable rope and come-along option.
> The release of extreme springpole tension.
> "Pole in a Hole"
> *Five Point Plan for Storm Damaged Trees:*
> 
> OVERHEAD HAZARDS!!
> Hazards on the ground
> Assess lean weight and pressure
> Cutting technique or cut plan
> Escape route


Ok

now tell me, how many folks proceed past level 1
As I have said multiple times, its not necessarily a bad course, its just teaches one way to solve problems, the inherent issue is that it breeds the idea that THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, which can and will get somebody killed.


----------



## catbuster

kjorrrits said:


> As far as I understand as soon as soon as The tree starts to die it will rapidly begin to dry rot, causing the tree to harden and become brittle. This process moves quickly and begins before it looks like the tree is dead. Eab might make it worse than a normal die off but it’s just the nature of the wood in the tree.



EAB wood is much more brittle than standing dead. It’s almost like the tree doesn’t get a chance to rot, it just dries out and turns to dust. I did a lot of them from 2013-2015 on a long-term site restoration project. Having big excavators and a high lift helped a lot, but they still were brittle, and for me with let’s call them… Generous sized faces, barberchair wasn’t a problem, but breaking off the hinge early was.



Patrick1903 said:


> Is there another equivalent type of course that you (or others) prefer?



I second Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent. It’s by far the best book on the subject. It covers a more broad array of subjects and does a better job of the principles behind falling trees than it does giving hard methods on how to tackle problems. There is no one size fits all solution to falling trees. Trying to fit them into one method will cause problems, including up to death of yourself or others.

Worksafe BC has a wonderful video series. I also recommend Northmanlogging’s two videos on falling trees. The first part, especially, should be thought provoking.

Roy Hauser teaches a class called The Art of Felling Timber. He’s also written a book by the same name. Roy has a lot of experience in a god awful lot of conditions from slashing green brush to giant fire damaged trees and standing dead. It’s worth noting that both the book and class are to be used with the expectation that you can tip a tree over safely already. It’s more so the refinement of what you do already _or _alternative methods for falling trees, or overcoming hazards.


----------



## GrizG

northmanlogging said:


> Ok
> now tell me, how many folks proceed past level 1
> As I have said multiple times, its not necessarily a bad course, its just teaches one way to solve problems, the inherent issue is that it breeds the idea that THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, which can and will get somebody killed.


I cannot speak of all trainers but the one I had made it very clear that GOL1 was the first course in the program and it was primarily focused on safety and a technique to develop familiarity with how to assess hazards and lean, dynamics of how the saw will react at various points on the bar, how to hold the saw, how to gun, how to bore cut, how to wedge, etc. That is, the basics. He encouraged folks to fell some trees for practice and take additional courses. I trained with him and hosted a GOL1 where I observed him and the students. In both roles I heard him talk about GOL1 as a starting point... nobody should have walked away thinking it was the only way. I'm not sure where you got the impression that it does. 

I recently received the latest course list for New York Logger Training and they have, amongst others, GOL1, GOL2, GOL3 and GOL Storm tree courses coming up in the next couple months. From my perspective, neither the trainer, the GOL program, nor the Logger Certification program imply that there is only one way to fell a tree...


----------



## northmanlogging

GrizG said:


> I cannot speak of all trainers but the one I had made it very clear that GOL1 was the first course in the program and it was primarily focused on safety and a technique to develop familiarity with how to assess hazards and lean, dynamics of how the saw will react at various points on the bar, how to hold the saw, how to gun, how to bore cut, how to wedge, etc. That is, the basics. He encouraged folks to fell some trees for practice and take additional courses. I trained with him and hosted a GOL1 where I observed him and the students. In both roles I heard him talk about GOL1 as a starting point... nobody should have walked away thinking it was the only way. I'm not sure where you got the impression that it does.
> 
> I recently received the latest course list for New York Logger Training and they have, amongst others, GOL1, GOL2, GOL3 and GOL Storm tree courses coming up in the next couple months. From my perspective, neither the trainer, the GOL program, nor the Logger Certification program imply that there is only one way to fell a tree...


Ya ever work with some college educated *******, that has never had any real life experience? Yet they have that education and that piece of paper that says "i'm the expert here"

No?

Thats what 90% of people that have taken a GOL course act like, they already know everything, because they paid some doode to tell them what they need to know. 

Its not just GOL its every facet of bought education, its not the course itself, ITS THE ******* IDIOTS WHO PAY FOR THE COURSE that are the problem. the course does not give someone common sense, or the ability to think for themselves, Which I will reiterate, is my main concern with GOL or any sort of semi professional "hobby" training, not necessarily the curriculum, but how that curriculum is used in the world. (though in GOL's case they have a very narrow time frame, which leads to a very narrow set of skills taught, timber falling isn't something you just pick up in a few weekends with 12 other people in between snack breaks and bragging about how much you spent on your chaps) 

If you can't understand this simple fact of human nature... you might be the problem.


----------



## JimR

kenmbz said:


> JimR - It's not a blight, it's Emerald Ash Borer, look for D shaped exit holes and bark falling off in large chips.
> ​


I already had the trees looked at by a professional arborist. I don't have EAB in my trees as of yet. We also peeled the bark off a few looking for evidence of EAB and there is none. There are no D holes in the bark.


----------



## kdjacob2000

So it seems from the responses so far that ash has a propensity to barber chair. That's helpful.

Let me pose a question to the community:

Consider an straight-up 20" DBH ash. Is there a recommended felling technique anyone can offer that minimizes the chances of barber chairing on its way down?

(I'm deliberately excluding leaners, rot, etc. to see if there's any consensus on chair-minimizing felling technique.)

Thanks!


----------



## woodfarmer

First thing is to search the thread “safe falling of rotten ash” in the arborist section I believe, most of this has been covered.
I have felled hundreds of dead Ash over the last 5 years and only one has barber chaired on me and I was expecting it to anyway from the circumstance.
Heed Northman’s advice, he tells it like it is. I’ve been in the Bush for 40 years, never taken courses just learned from past down advice from the generations before me.
My first cut is at 45* and then a 90* bottom cut at least 1/3 of the diameter into the tree. Then a felling cut about an inch or two higher than the face cut, on the throttle and don’t stop until the tree is headed over. I also have been using the bore cut more in the last two years as these trees are now all dead standing and getting more dangerous every year.


----------



## catbuster

kdjacob2000 said:


> So it seems from the responses so far that ash has a propensity to barber chair. That's helpful.
> 
> Let me pose a question to the community:
> 
> Consider an straight-up 20" DBH ash. Is there a recommended felling technique anyone can offer that minimizes the chances of barber chairing on its way down?
> 
> (I'm deliberately excluding leaners, rot, etc. to see if there's any consensus on chair-minimizing felling technique.)
> 
> Thanks!



1. Open up a big face. Like ~50% DBH. I’m thinking a Humboldt with a big scarf (well over 45 degrees from horizontal) to allow more travel before the hinge breaks.

2. Coos Bay back cut, the faster the better.


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## hkstwn7

Rope or heavy straps are definitely your friend, hopefully attached to a backhoe
And, no climbing on these killer trees
I had one 48 inches at base, it exploded when it hit the ground


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## woodfarmer

You can see here, I bored this one and the 24” bar didn’t go all the way through. I usually nip the corners too to prevent pulling. You’ll also see I cut in a bar width or more on the far side as I was pulling the tree to the right and it fell were it was aimed.


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## Oletrapper

kenmbz said:


> One of the many barberchairs.
> View attachment 975884
> 
> One of the self splits over 10' up.
> Many trees fall in weird ways as they split off in directions other than lean!
> View attachment 975885


Those be ugly right there now. lol Can get ya killed it can. jmho  OT


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## Oletrapper

woodfarmer said:


> You can see here, I bored this one and the 24” bar didn’t go all the way through. I usually nip the corners too to prevent pulling. You’ll also see I cut in a bar width or more on the far side as I was pulling the tree to the right and it fell were it was aimed.View attachment 976139


Way to close to the ground for me. My back couldn't take that. Especially if it didn't go as thought or planned. I definitely wouldn't be able to move fast enough. Just saying.  OT


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## Jed1124

JimR said:


> I already had the trees looked at by a professional arborist. I don't have EAB in my trees as of yet. We also peeled the bark off a few looking for evidence of EAB and there is none. There are no D holes in the bark.


Where are you located in Mass?


----------



## osteoart

Jed1124 said:


> Welcome aboard and happy to see that you made it away from that tree unscathed.


Ditto. Your first photo looks to me like typical EAB killed ash and typical of how they fall. Rotted way up the stump. Now were you really under that tree when it fell?


----------



## GrizG

northmanlogging said:


> Ya ever work with some college educated *******, that has never had any real life experience? Yet they have that education and that piece of paper that says "i'm the expert here"
> 
> No?
> 
> Thats what 90% of people that have taken a GOL course act like, they already know everything, because they paid some doode to tell them what they need to know.
> 
> Its not just GOL its every facet of bought education, its not the course itself, ITS THE ******* IDIOTS WHO PAY FOR THE COURSE that are the problem. the course does not give someone common sense, or the ability to think for themselves, Which I will reiterate, is my main concern with GOL or any sort of semi professional "hobby" training, not necessarily the curriculum, but how that curriculum is used in the world. (though in GOL's case they have a very narrow time frame, which leads to a very narrow set of skills taught, timber falling isn't something you just pick up in a few weekends with 12 other people in between snack breaks and bragging about how much you spent on your chaps)
> 
> If you can't understand this simple fact of human nature... you might be the problem.


I'm well aware of the education effect... I've worked and associated with people with education and training ranging high school drop outs to those with multiple doctorates. I've also taught at colleges and mentored young people in the workplace. It is safe to say that those who took GOL 1 are much less likely to be maimed or killed, or injure someone else, than those who have had no formal training. This as they are aware of hazards, saw dynamics, lean, gunning, escape routes, etc. as well as how to fell a tree using at least one proven technique. On the other hand, not all those who learned through "real world" experience had good experience. In many cases when someone claims to have 30 years experience with a chainsaw the reality is that it's 2 hours of experience 6,000 times... 

I knew many of the people in the GOL 1 class I hosted and some had been running saws for 20-40 years. One kid from a land trust had about an hour of saw tutelage from me. That kid was like a sponge and was the only one with a perfect stump, and he had no bad habits! He used my gear and was the only one with a sharp saw when the class started... Since then he has acquired a saw, PPE, etc. and has done cutting for the land trust. When he was unsure about how to handle a tree he'd call me and I'd go help him develop a cutting plan. I trust that kid.

Regarding the real world guys. I work with another land trust to keep 22 miles of a rail trail through a wooded environment clear of hazards and fallen trees. Last year I responded to a call about trees down. When I arrived and assessed the situation I found that a large walnut, it's stump on ground about 15 feet higher than the trail, had uprooted and taken down 6 other trees with it. I called the _Coordinator of Land Stewardship _requesting assistance with keeping trail users away and removing cut debris. She called in a volunteer the Executive Director had called upon previously. Both the coordinator and volunteer responded to the site. 

The trees had heavily loaded trunks and branches along with spring poles and there were broken off trees. All of it coming from ground above the trail. I started removing the brush while waiting for them to arrive so I could form a plan on how to cut the loaded trunks. When the other guy showed up with a saw I requested that he not cut while I was cutting. This as it was too dangerous to have two guys cutting on the same loaded mess as things were moving around. I finished removing the brush and most of the heavy branches leaving only the heavily loaded trunks. At that point I took a water break and prepared to switch over to my MS461 from the MS261. The other guy, with his 30+ years of experience, jumped in with his mid-sized Husky. 

The coordinator's spouse is a certified arborist who works for one of the bigger and more professional tree services in the area. He often goes out and assesses and bids jobs and he climbs and runs a saw too. As such, the coordinator is very familiar with tree work as she's been around it for 20+ years. The volunteer scared the crap out of us... he clearly had no understanding of compression and tension and dealing with loaded trees. The first 20 or so cuts he made resulted in the trunks splitting due to the stresses on the trunk. He came to the site on a compact tractor and after cutting used it's plow to push debris off the trail. After watching him cut I immediately removed all my gear from the area when he got on the tractor as I didn't trust him... sure as hell he ran over his own saw. The coordinator advised the Executive Director that they should not allow that guy to do any chainsaw work as he was dangerous... 30+ years of experience be damned! 

Taking in the big picture GOL 1 training is valuable for all who take it and it pleases the insurance companies. In my opinion focusing on just the felling technique used to convey the information is too narrow a focus.


----------



## GrizG

hkstwn7 said:


> Rope or heavy straps are definitely your friend, hopefully attached to a backhoe
> And, no climbing on these killer trees
> I had one 48 inches at base, it exploded when it hit the ground


Roping is dangerous on the dead ash as the trees are prone to breaking off mid-stem when pulled. Wedging also presents risks as the vibration can cause limbs to break off... As you say, definitely no climbing!

The ash have been dead around here long enough that the tree services never climb them nor will they use ropes. If the tree cannot be felled whole bucket trucks and grapple saws are employed. Me personally, if the risks of felling outweigh the risks of letting a tree fall on it's own the tree gets to fall on it's own!


----------



## JimR

Jed1124 said:


> Where are you located in Mass?


Paxton, Trees Unlimited looked at my trees.


----------



## northmanlogging

GrizG said:


> I'm well aware of the education effect... I've worked and associated with people with education and training ranging high school drop outs to those with multiple doctorates. I've also taught at colleges and mentored young people in the workplace. It is safe to say that those who took GOL 1 are much less likely to be maimed or killed, or injure someone else, than those who have had no formal training. This as they are aware of hazards, saw dynamics, lean, gunning, escape routes, etc. as well as how to fell a tree using at least one proven technique. On the other hand, not all those who learned through "real world" experience had good experience. In many cases when someone claims to have 30 years experience with a chainsaw the reality is that it's 2 hours of experience 6,000 times...
> 
> I knew many of the people in the GOL 1 class I hosted and some had been running saws for 20-40 years. One kid from a land trust had about an hour of saw tutelage from me. That kid was like a sponge and was the only one with a perfect stump, and he had no bad habits! He used my gear and was the only one with a sharp saw when the class started... Since then he has acquired a saw, PPE, etc. and has done cutting for the land trust. When he was unsure about how to handle a tree he'd call me and I'd go help him develop a cutting plan. I trust that kid.
> 
> Regarding the real world guys. I work with another land trust to keep 22 miles of a rail trail through a wooded environment clear of hazards and fallen trees. Last year I responded to a call about trees down. When I arrived and assessed the situation I found that a large walnut, it's stump on ground about 15 feet higher than the trail, had uprooted and taken down 6 other trees with it. I called the _Coordinator of Land Stewardship _requesting assistance with keeping trail users away and removing cut debris. She called in a volunteer the Executive Director had called upon previously. Both the coordinator and volunteer responded to the site.
> 
> The trees had heavily loaded trunks and branches along with spring poles and there were broken off trees. All of it coming from ground above the trail. I started removing the brush while waiting for them to arrive so I could form a plan on how to cut the loaded trunks. When the other guy showed up with a saw I requested that he not cut while I was cutting. This as it was too dangerous to have two guys cutting on the same loaded mess as things were moving around. I finished removing the brush and most of the heavy branches leaving only the heavily loaded trunks. At that point I took a water break and prepared to switch over to my MS461 from the MS261. The other guy, with his 30+ years of experience, jumped in with his mid-sized Husky.
> 
> The coordinator's spouse is a certified arborist who works for one of the bigger and more professional tree services in the area. He often goes out and assesses and bids jobs and he climbs and runs a saw too. As such, the coordinator is very familiar with tree work as she's been around it for 20+ years. The volunteer scared the crap out of us... he clearly had no understanding of compression and tension and dealing with loaded trees. The first 20 or so cuts he made resulted in the trunks splitting due to the stresses on the trunk. He came to the site on a compact tractor and after cutting used it's plow to push debris off the trail. After watching him cut I immediately removed all my gear from the area when he got on the tractor as I didn't trust him... sure as hell he ran over his own saw. The coordinator advised the Executive Director that they should not allow that guy to do any chainsaw work as he was dangerous... 30+ years of experience be damned!
> 
> Taking in the big picture GOL 1 training is valuable for all who take it and it pleases the insurance companies. In my opinion focusing on just the felling technique used to convey the information is too narrow a focus.


To be fair, the decades of experience guys come in 2 types the ayup, I run a saw. and the I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE YOU WERE KNEE HIGH TO RABBIT ****...
Its the same mentality of the college educated moron. (I believe its called entitlement)
Doing the same thing wrong for 30 years is no different then learning one way and never deviating, both are wrong and ignorant. (believe me I run self loader log truck, I get sent to some of the dumbest jack strawed knee deep mud cess pools, and its invariably the guy that spouts off about having decades of experience and a master loggers certificate to boot, it means nothing if you don't apply that knowledge) 

Either way, we can circle around this topic and never see eye to eye, or we can agree to both be opinionated old assholes, I'm fine with either.


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> Ok
> 
> now tell me, how many folks proceed past level 1
> As I have said multiple times, its not necessarily a bad course, its just teaches one way to solve problems, the inherent issue is that it breeds the idea that THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, which can and will get somebody killed.


It depends on the instructor. I went to the first course near Woodland. The instructor was from Wisconsin and had been a professional faller at one time. Yes, he talked boring but also showed other ways to get trees on the ground. A couple of loggers attended and the rest of the folks were utilities and park people. One of the loggers was not a faller but operated a buncher and had to cut trees that the buncher wouldn't.

Production cutting was not the object of that course. Safety was. He covered the different face cuts, I remember the Coos Bay cut being demonstrated and other ways to get trees on the ground. 

I'm not a faller. I'm not a logger. But I have been around a lot of falling, most of it by pretty good fallers. One thing I've learned is that there is always a tree that won't fall the way it was supposed to. Always. This happens to everybody so it pays to be on your toes. One guy, who does do certifications for the FS said that second growth is more hazardous to fall than the big old growth because the faller spends more time under the tree. I got pretty worried when I saw a tree fold up while being cut by one of the better production fallers in the area. He said afterwards that he got pretty worried too. 

All trees do not behave, game of logging or no.


----------



## Jed1124

JimR said:


> Paxton, Trees Unlimited looked at my trees.


If you have any trees that you would like to retain in the landscape I would strongly suggest that you start treating them now. EAB is in your area and once the trees start showing signs of infection it is generally to late to treat them.


----------



## buzz sawyer

Brufab said:


> Is that normal? I think I have been making my face cut depth at around 30% of the diameter.


Sounds about right. The depth may be 30% but the width of the hinge would be 80%.


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> Ya ever work with some college educated *******, that has never had any real life experience? Yet they have that education and that piece of paper that says "i'm the expert here"
> 
> No?
> 
> Thats what 90% of people that have taken a GOL course act like, they already know everything, because they paid some doode to tell them what they need to know.
> 
> Its not just GOL its every facet of bought education, its not the course itself, ITS THE ******* IDIOTS WHO PAY FOR THE COURSE that are the problem. the course does not give someone common sense, orUmm the ability to think for themselves, Which I will reiterate, is my main concern with GOL or any sort of semi professional "hobby" training, not necessarily the curriculum, but how that curriculum is used in the world. (though in GOL's case they have a very narrow time frame, which leads to a very narrow set of skills taught, timber falling isn't something you just pick up in a few weekends with 12 other people in between snack breaks and bragging about how much you spent on your chaps)
> 
> If you can't understand this simple fact of human nature... you might be the problem.


Ummm, how many GOL folks have you met? It really hasn't been a big thing out here. If it's just on AS that you are referring to, there's a lot of huge egos and scary pictures on this forum. 

The GOL instructor stressed, all the way through the two days, that it was an introductory safety course, was not the only way, was not going to make us experts, and that there are other ways. The problem is Egos. There's always know it alls. Some go to GOL, some don't. I would usually figure out who to stay a long ways away from in the woods, and who could be trusted or worked with. I was warned a few times. One warning was about the least formal educated guy (was a meth head) and to stay away cuz he don't see too good. I don't think he could have spelled GOL. 



Don't knock formal education. It has it's place. I'm glad my doctor went to more skool.


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## mrhemihead

Had all our ash trees removed, much to the dismay of Bartlett who tried to sell me their EAB treatment. 
Good bye ash trees...


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## CJ1

Oletrapper, If you are cutting logs then you need to get low so I cut on my knees at the end of the day to save my back. I use a Humbolt notch but way shallower than pictured. I only go as deep and steep as needed to control fall normally 20-30 degrees. I use a Coos bay back cut on the leaners or risk of splitting [barberchair] If you have a barberchair you have too small a saw [too slow] or you chickened out and did not finish the cut. OR you used a incorrect cut on the tree. Like everyone has been saying, experience is 99.9% of being safe and living. Find someone who has the experience to show you how to do it safely. If a log is not a issue, then cut at the height that is comfortable. But remember the higher up you go the more risk of the butt of the tree coming back on you if it hangs up. {The Humbolt notch really helps here, that is all I teach people to use} Use a large notch, roughly 1/3rd of the tree and a straight backcut for directing the fall and a Coos bay back cut for heavy leaners. They are simple and they work! I normally can tell how much experience a cutter has by the size of the notch. Alot of my notches a very small basically just enough to keep the wood from pulling and provide a step for the truck to fall from. The heartwood pulls is a no no and a deep notch and hesitated cutoff will give you that everytime. Anyway be safe and live to cut another one! CJ


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## GrizG

northmanlogging said:


> To be fair, the decades of experience guys come in 2 types the ayup, I run a saw. and the I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE YOU WERE KNEE HIGH TO RABBIT ****...
> Its the same mentality of the college educated moron. (I believe its called entitlement)
> Doing the same thing wrong for 30 years is no different then learning one way and never deviating, both are wrong and ignorant. (believe me I run self loader log truck, I get sent to some of the dumbest jack strawed knee deep mud cess pools, and its invariably the guy that spouts off about having decades of experience and a master loggers certificate to boot, it means nothing if you don't apply that knowledge)
> 
> Either way, we can circle around this topic and never see eye to eye, or we can agree to both be opinionated old assholes, I'm fine with either.


At this point in my life I'm more of an Elder Statesmen. I'm more interested in developing collaboration between seemingly disparate groups in an effort to move everyone forward. For example, I've made good headway with getting progressive environmentalists and conservative conservationist sportsmen's groups to work together on forest and habitat management and hunting issues. That couldn't have been more evident than when the chair of a progressive land trust got up in front of a town meeting in support of deer hunting. This as the deer over-population has been decimating the forest. It wasn't lost on those present or the press who was speaking in support of deer hunting... it swayed the outcome. The land trust also adopted new policies on forest management beyond the "forever wild" position they held for decades. The sportsmen stopped attacking the environmentalists too and they came out in support of a big project to improve access to water shed properties that had been spearheaded by the land trust. I demonstrated to both groups that their interests overlapped about 95-99% and if they set aside that 1-5% difference things could be way better... and it is! 

I was invited to go to the state capital and lobby senators along with a bunch of lobbyists from environmentalist groups. As we went from senator to senator the guy coordinating our efforts moved me up in the speaking order until I was first. This as I was able to touch a cord that the environmentalists consistently missed. As a result we got significant legislation passed and stopped some detrimental activity by governmental agencies that would hurt both the environmentalist and conservationist agendas. You've got be be able to understand and synthetize all sides of an issue to move forward... Sure there are some dumb a's out there as well as ivy tower ignoramuses but they can each bring value to the table. As such, I don't see the point in attacking GOL or it's students. They and we all would be better off if older experienced guys like us fill in the voids to move things forward.


----------



## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> Ummm, how many GOL folks have you met? It really hasn't been a big thing out here. If it's just on AS that you are referring to, there's a lot of huge egos and scary pictures on this forum.
> 
> The GOL instructor stressed, all the way through the two days, that it was an introductory safety course, was not the only way, was not going to make us experts, and that there are other ways. The problem is Egos. There's always know it alls. Some go to GOL, some don't. I would usually figure out who to stay a long ways away from in the woods, and who could be trusted or worked with. I was warned a few times. One warning was about the least formal educated guy (was a meth head) and to stay away cuz he don't see too good. I don't think he could have spelled GOL.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't knock formal education. It has it's place. I'm glad my doctor went to more skool.


Been actively working around more then a few, not to mention the occasional argument here on AS. 

My point being, be it informal or formal education, in some folks possibly a majority of folks, education has a tendency to develop hard and fast rules and opinions where there should be none. These same types of folks never question the information provided, they just regurgitate it verbatim as the gospel truth. When they are questioned, it generally turns into an argument, not because they think they are correct, but because they refuse to be wrong. 

Kinda like your doctor insisting that your BMI is too high 6'0" and 330# is a BMI of 44.8, which is defined as morbidly obese, never mind I can dead lift a geo metro, and out hike everyone in said Doctors office, with a bum leg, but that is what they are taught and its therefore the only truth that matters to them. (granted last time I was in he was much more open minded about it, one of the reasons I like this doctor... doesn't automatically assume I have diabetes and that viral pneumonia isn't a result of binge watching ice cream go down my throat while chain smoking Camel non filters)

And I'm not knocking formal education, Hel I wish I could of gotten more, I'm just knocking the attitudes it more often then not establishes.


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## CJ1

northmanlogging said:


> Been actively working around more then a few, not to mention the occasional argument here on AS.
> 
> My point being, be it informal or formal education, in some folks possibly a majority of folks, education has a tendency to develop hard and fast rules and opinions where there should be none. These same types of folks never question the information provided, they just regurgitate it verbatim as the gospel truth. When they are questioned, it generally turns into an argument, not because they think they are correct, but because they refuse to be wrong.
> 
> Kinda like your doctor insisting that your BMI is too high 6'0" and 330# is a BMI of 44.8, which is defined as morbidly obese, never mind I can dead lift a geo metro, and out hike everyone in said Doctors office, with a bum leg, but that is what they are taught and its therefore the only truth that matters to them. (granted last time I was in he was much more open minded about it, one of the reasons I like this doctor... doesn't automatically assume I have diabetes and that viral pneumonia isn't a result of binge watching ice cream go down my throat while chain smoking Camel non filters)
> 
> And I'm not knocking formal education, Hel I wish I could of gotten more, I'm just knocking the attitudes it more often then not establishes.


^^so true^^ When someone can teach a tree the hard fast rules then I will believe them. Trees seem to rewrite the rules as you are cutting!! CJ


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## northmanlogging

To be fair I'm just as likely to call BS on the "decades" of experience folks too, wrong is wrong whether you learned it in a book, or learned it in a weekend course.

One of them "decades of exp" guys is a pretty good friend of mine now, I've learned a great deal from him, dude can barely read or write, but he can out log me and is a wizard on an excavator, He said it best, 30 years of doing it wrong doesn't make you any good at it. He's 60? +? and still picking up new ideas and trying out new machinery.


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## slowp

I have the same experiences with doctors. Finally, no lectures on the weight and even a comment about being a lot healthier than most people coming in here. The younger drs. seem to be a bit more looking at individuals, instead of the charts. 

Some of us must be from the "ready to flee from the Sassenich" gene pool. 

Speaking of, must go for a walk now.


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## Huntaholic

JEEZUS FRIGGIN CHRIST!!!!!! You folks sure use a lot of words, making much ado about basically NOTHING! I could show you more in 2 minutes, (the average time it takes to cut a tree) than what would at least take me an HOUR to type out here! My best advice would be to go find somebody that does this crap every day and spend a few days in the woods with them. Drive wedges, pack their gas and oil around, whatever it takes to get in the woods with a professional. 
And before anybody says 2 minutes is an absurdly short time to cut a tree, no, its not. I cut a lightning struck dead tulip poplar for my neighbor a few months ago that was leaning HARD toward his house. I had to climb it, cable it, run the cable thru a pulley and pull it with my truck. Once that was all done, from the time I started the saw until the tree was on the ground was 1 min 36sec. His wife timed it, I don't pay attention to that kind of crap. It went EXACTLY where I wanted it, I used a flying Dutchman humbolt, bore cut, backset hinge, open face step ladder cut. Yeah, I don't know what that is but it sure sounded good!


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## Pudsy

lwmibc said:


> I still don't get the question here. I went back to the OP's photos, and there definitely are two stems there, there is an obvious layer of bark between them shown in the notch cut. 95% of the notch has been cut in the smaller left stem, 5% in the main stem.
> 
> Then there was a back cut in the main stem that proceeded until *something* broke the main stem off, with a barber chair. I have no idea how the assembly held until the cut to the barber chair was made.
> 
> Perhaps the left stem was removed first, I don't know--but if it was, then there is insufficient notch in the main stem before the back cut was started. With that approach anything can--and did--happen.
> 
> I'm just not seeing any surprise here. It looks to me that there were two stems and they should have been taken down separately. What am I missing?


I'm 100% with lwmibc here.
This thread has some great/entertaining/educational discussion, but it does look to me that it has spun _completely_ off topic, considering the images posted by OP. Or are both lwmibc and myself just daft/blind?


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## kdjacob2000

Qiq==


northmanlogging said:


> as for humboldt/standard/birdsmouth....
> 
> all of them direct just as well as the other, each has its use, really the hinge/hold wood does the directing, the face cuts whichever type simply provide room for the stem to move.
> 
> Standard is good if you are in open ground and would like a very low stump. Its also arguably the easiest to master, and therefore the most common, though I do see a whole bunch of folks taking ridiculous amounts out of the stem for what amounts to a very shallow face... a 45 degree opening is more then ample for 99% of the wood out there, yet you see many that are nearly 90 deg essentially just cutting the taper out of the stump...
> 
> Humboldt is good for getting the butt to hit first, as well as acting as a chock against back slip, and will allow a tree to "fly" especially if its a narrow face down hill, and if you want to do crazy stuff like soft dutch, or siswheel it works marginally better then standard, and it doesn't ruin marketable wood. There are a bunch of other things you can do with a humboldt too, like sniping, side shift, modified block face etc etc etc.
> 
> Birdsmouth is good if you have brittle short fiber wood and you want to be sure it goes where you intend, also handy in chair prone timber, though the effect is marginal. Essentially, its used for when you absolutely don't want the face to close up and stall thereby shearing the hold wood, or causing a chair.
> 
> A forth unmentioned would be a block face, which is were the humboldt originated from, you take a full on square chunk out rather then a sloping cut, its really a lot of work to make happen so its rarely used unless on very big timber or if you want the butt to sit down on the stump and not tear up ground in front of said stump, can be handy for falling over paved or sensitive areas, though a modified humboldt, which is a normal humboldyt with a fat chunk takin out of the leading edge is a whole lot less work, and you don't need to be as accurate with the block cuts to get the same results





lwmibc said:


> I still don't get the question here. I went back to the OP's photos, and there definitely are two stems there, there is an obvious layer of bark between them shown in the notch cut. 95% of the notch has been cut in the smaller left stem, 5% in the main stem.
> 
> Then there was a back cut in the main stem that proceeded until *something* broke the main stem off, with a barber chair. I have no idea how the assembly held until the cut to the barber chair was made.
> 
> Perhaps the left stem was removed first, I don't know--but if it was, then there is insufficient notch in the main stem before the back cut was started. With that approach anything can--and did--happen.
> 
> I'm just not seeing any surprise here. It looks to me that there were two stems and they should have been taken down separately. What am I missing?


I'm sorry I did not give more detail in my original post. The smaller-diameter trunk was cut first, and I was not thinking about it at all when I made my post. It seems it offers some clues to you experts, but for me, it was long gone when I got the chair on the bigger trunk.


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## kdjacob2000

GrizG said:


> I've felled many 100s, and perhaps over 1,000, dead ash over the past 7 years and haven't had a barber chair yet. I also felled a lot of snags that had broken off mid stem or where the top had broken off, and cut and bucked many fallen or leaning ash.
> 
> For the vast majority of the standing trees and snags I used the GOL technique, a short summery of which is: 70° open face notch the length of which is about 80% of the diameter, bore cut to establish the hinge, wedge, cut the trigger, pound wedges as needed. The trees I cut ranged from a few inches DBH up to about 30" DBH. They ranged from just barely alive to well decayed. Smaller trees generally didn't involve the bore cut. Some were back cut first, wedged and then notched. Limb locked trees were felled together. Some hazardous trees were knocked over with other trees. In some cases trees were left standing to be handled by nature when the dangers of cutting outweighed the risks of the tree falling on it's own.
> 
> Assessing the condition and lean of each and every tree is important. The site hazards and targets need to be assessed. Escape routes need to be planned. Having different cutting techniques available in your skill set is important too.


"70° open face notch the length of which is about 80% of the diameter, bore cut to establish the hinge, wedge, cut the trigger, pound wedges as needed."

An Ernest Hemingway description of the process if I've ever heard one...


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## kdjacob2000

GrizG said:


> From looking at your stump, I have to agree with some of the other folks that the face cut isn't deep enough. This not for the sake of a deep face cut but from the perspective that the length of the face cut should be about 80% of the diameter of the tree when viewed from the face cut. Taking my best estimate from the 3rd photo in the series, it looks like the length of the hinge is closer to 60% of the diameter than to 80%. With the short hinge you have to "lift" more of the tree to get it to fall and I'm pretty sure that is where the barber chair was triggered. I suggest continuing to use the open face cut, increase your hinge length to about 80% and continue using the bore cut to establish the hinge.
> 
> I don't know what saw you are using but for most of the better saws if you hold the handle bar in the curve the saw will naturally hang such that you will get about a 70° angle. Not the best camera angle perhaps but this image shows it in practice. Play with hand placement a bit and you'll find the sweet spot.... Make the top cut first and then the bottom cut (which should be horizontal/level) and meet the top cut without over cuts. Clean up the notch as needed to not have overcuts.
> 
> View attachment 976098


Excellent points. Tomorrow, I'll go out and make some measurements, and more photos if necessary, and get back to you. I'm hoping I wasn't as far off as 60% of DBH instead of 80%. We'll see...


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## Jed1124

Ol’ RandyMac would had some fun with this thread back in the day….


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## kdjacob2000

Before I post a few measurements of the cut, and maybe take a few more pix, I managed to take down 10 large-ish (16-24" DBH) ash trees over the past two days. I only had the barberchair problem with one, but this discussion definitely heightened my awareness of dead ash as a species to be super careful about.

I am cutting these trees for two reasons: firewood, and for my woodshop. Southern New England ash is usually snow-white (with darker heartwood at times), very long-grained, and a pleasure to work in the shop, with both power and hand tools. I love it, and I'll be long dead before these trees come back, if they ever do. That's how devastating emerald ash borer has been to this neck of the woods.

I'm eating up all the great technical advice in this thread. I wish I could meet some of you, stand next to you, and watch you work. Maybe you'd even let me take the saw and try something new standing over my shoulder.


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## CJ1

I


kdjacob2000 said:


> Before I post a few measurements of the cut, and maybe take a few more pix, I managed to take down 10 large-ish (16-24" DBH) ash trees over the past two days. I only had the barberchair problem with one, but this discussion definitely heightened my awareness of dead ash as a species to be super careful about.
> 
> I am cutting these trees for two reasons: firewood, and for my woodshop. Southern New England ash is usually snow-white (with darker heartwood at times), very long-grained, and a pleasure to work in the shop, with both power and hand tools. I love it, and I'll be long dead before these trees come back, if they ever do. That's how devastating emerald ash borer has been to this neck of the woods.
> 
> I'm eating up all the great technical advice in this thread. I wish I could meet some of you, stand next to you, and watch you work. Maybe you'd even let me take the saw and try something new standing over my shoulder.


I'd love to meet up and discuss falling! I was taught by IMHO 2 of the best. Lynn Forstner and Leroy Diamon. Both are gone now, Lynn to a logging accident and Leroy to cancer but both thought me more than I could ever explain. In so many ways. Experience has done the rest. I even learned from this thread that the face cut I use is called a Humboldt wedge! All I know is it gives me a safer cut and more log to sell. I am old now but never stop learning. If I can help someone to cut safely by describing something then I will happily do it!! Sorry if that bothers some. Since Jesus was brought up, pride comes before a fall!! I still remove problem trees and cut for our band mill when I have time and do the occasional job for a log home mill.


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## northmanlogging

So, one of the issues I have with certain taught practices this 70-80% of the width via the length of the face cut. (its difficult to say, let alone describe)

Is pure bull ****, trees are very rarely round. that head on look does a couple of things goofy one, it requires to you make a judgement while not controlling the saw, (to do it accurately you have to stop and let go and take a look) or essentially guessing from an angle that you can not physically see what you are aiming for. As well as being a completely arbitrary standard that has limited uses based on trunk shape as a whole. it might work if you only fall perfectly straight perfectly round timber, which is rare at best. It leads to a whole lot of guess work for lining up cuts too for that matter. 

You're whole lot better off using the depth of the face cut in direct relation to direction of fall, this gives you far more accurate idea of how much hold wood, and how much back wood you will have to work with. rather then going off one side, that could be flat or even convex, in which case you would have a dangerously small face cut (as the original photos show) or possibly with an absurdly oblong trunk you could have a dangerously deep face cut just as well.

FYI, conventional wisdom says 30% depth vs Dia, though loggers will tell you deeper is better, and in many cases it is, however, you have to temper face depth with how much room is there for wedges, degree of lean, brittleness of wood etc etc, all that said, 30% will do most of what you need, upwards of 50% is still pretty ok most of the time, in reality, much much deeper for broken off stobs is fine too.

Even seen guys take as much as 70-80% of DIA to fall live tall timber, 30" dia. tree and there was barely room for a saw bar and the tip of one wedge... I was worried lol, houses on both sides of it.


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## CJ1

Here is a over 36" pine that had over 90' of usable log in it. Hated to cut it but it was to be removed either way. The homeowner was a tree climber and did not want to cut it because of the height of the tree. It was by Hartwick pines if that helps with why it was so big. Cj


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## GrizG

kdjacob2000 said:


> Excellent points. Tomorrow, I'll go out and make some measurements, and more photos if necessary, and get back to you. I'm hoping I wasn't as far off as 60% of DBH instead of 80%. We'll see...


I’m curious to know too… it’s tricky judging things from photos as this thread has made obvious!


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## Gologit

I read this entire thread. I wish I hadn't. Lots of well meaning advice here. Some of it was good advice, some of it was really bad advice, and some of it was just downright stupid advice. Too many of you are putting too much faith in your training and not enough of you are using common sense. The tree and the stump will tell you everything you did wrong, if you just take the time to study it a little and use your damn head.
You're looking for the "if I do *this, *the tree will do* that" *results that your GOL course seems to guarantee. That doesn't work and it never will. Falling is constantly correcting yourself as you work your way through the tree. There is no one single method that will eliminate barber chairs.
I like the H Pattern Coos Bay cut but not everybody does.
'Chairs don't always move straight back. They can slab out on either side of the tree from the face or the back cut and they can split and slab in any direction. Sometimes they'll run up the tree a ways, break out and come right straight down on you. Sometimes they're noisy. Sometimes they're deadly silent.
I won't try to talk you out of whatever method works the best for you. You wouldn't listen anyway. Besides, if you can't figure out what you're doing wrong from the results you're getting you're probably too thick between the ears to be playing with saws.
Just remember...the tree is indifferent. It doesn't care if it kills you or not.


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## CDElliott

mbrick said:


> Many folks here with far more experience than me, but the face cut looks way too shallow. 10% or less?
> 
> 
> Still available from Bailey's. I bought it from them several years ago – only place I was able to find it at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Professional Timber Falling Book by Douglas Dent
> 
> 
> Authored by Douglas Dent, this is a valuable book that will assist the novice timber faller, as well as those experienced in the field, to safely fall and buck trees.Covers everything from bars, chain and equipment, to directional forces, holding wood, side boring, notching, jacking, and problem...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.baileysonline.com


I found it on Abebooks for 40.00. It sure has gone up over the years!


----------



## JimR

Jed1124 said:


> If you have any trees that you would like to retain in the landscape I would strongly suggest that you start treating them now. EAB is in your area and once the trees start showing signs of infection it is generally to late to treat them.





Jed1124 said:


> I was told that the blight has done a lot of damage to them and the best solution is to remove the damaged trees now. The affected trees are all 6 inch and larger. My smaller Ash seem to be okay. We have had several seasons of wet and very dry periods which supposedly causes this blight from what I have been told and read. The larger branches are dying off and there are bunches of new ones trying to grow out of the base of the damaged branches. My understand in ng is that some of the trees may survive this, most won't.


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## Pudsy

kdjacob2000 said:


> The smaller-diameter trunk was cut first, and I was not thinking about it at all when I made my post.


Thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## CJ1

Gologit said:


> I read this entire thread. I wish I hadn't. Lots of well meaning advice here. Some of it was good advice, some of it was really bad advice, and some of it was just downright stupid advice. Too many of you are putting too much faith in your training and not enough of you are using common sense. The tree and the stump will tell you everything you did wrong, if you just take the time to study it a little and use your damn head.
> You're looking for the "if I do *this, *the tree will do* that" *results that your GOL course seems to guarantee. That doesn't work and it never will. Falling is constantly correcting yourself as you work your way through the tree. There is no one single method that will eliminate barber chairs.
> I like the H Pattern Coos Bay cut but not everybody does.
> 'Chairs don't always move straight back. They can slab out on either side of the tree from the face or the back cut and they can split and slab in any direction. Sometimes they'll run up the tree a ways, break out and come right straight down on you. Sometimes they're noisy. Sometimes they're deadly silent.
> I won't try to talk you out of whatever method works the best for you. You wouldn't listen anyway. Besides, if you can't figure out what you're doing wrong from the results you're getting you're probably too thick between the ears to be playing with saws.
> Just remember...the tree is indifferent. It doesn't care if it kills you or not.


I need to get more experience with the H pattern coos. Normally when I use this cut all I care about is getting the tree down without splitting it. As you stated what matters is the cutter is alive in the end. This is not a game. Cj


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## GrizG

This thread reminds me of what happens at my fine woodworking club… An inquiry is made about an issue and many alternatives are offered up to the point of confounding the inquirer’s dilemma! I’ve taught classes and given presentations at woodworking shows on hand cut dovetails. I netted out what the myriad techniques have in common… the core principles to keep in mind. If you get those few things right nothing else really matters nor does the specific process you use to get there. 

Often times the solutions offered up for felling involve different techniques, different tools, and different skill levels. That is fine… making the knowledge accessible to others in a useful form is often the problem.

The OP in this thread, from what I’ve gathered, was already using an open face cut and a plunge cut to establish the hinge but was still having some barber chairs. From looking at his stump photos and his responses he was on the right track but was looking to refine the process. 

While the process in GOL 1 is not the solution to everything it does offer a proven solution for barber chair prevention and is well documented. The YouTube video on how to fell a tre that appears on the Husqvarna channel gives a very detailed explanation of the process. Yes, it is true that there are other techniques, but are they as well documented in a way accessible to all? While I’ve had the opportunity to be around and cut with highly skilled arborists and loggers, and have taken formal training, and have had good interactions with saw shops, not everyone has access to those experiences. That is not to say I know everything, or that I am a one trick pony (e.g., GOL 1 only), it does help me point folks to readily accessible resources that could help them remotely… and hopefully not confuse them! That is what I hope for when I ask questions…


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## GrizG

kdjacob2000 said:


> Before I post a few measurements of the cut, and maybe take a few more pix, I managed to take down 10 large-ish (16-24" DBH) ash trees over the past two days. I only had the barberchair problem with one, but this discussion definitely heightened my awareness of dead ash as a species to be super careful about.
> 
> I am cutting these trees for two reasons: firewood, and for my woodshop. Southern New England ash is usually snow-white (with darker heartwood at times), very long-grained, and a pleasure to work in the shop, with both power and hand tools. I love it, and I'll be long dead before these trees come back, if they ever do. That's how devastating emerald ash borer has been to this neck of the woods.
> 
> I'm eating up all the great technical advice in this thread. I wish I could meet some of you, stand next to you, and watch you work. Maybe you'd even let me take the saw and try something new standing over my shoulder.


Take a good hard look at the ash you plan to mill. I milled 6 logs with the intent of making flooring. I found that three had deteriorated to the point I wasn’t willing to put any more resources into them. I also had to abandon the project as all the ash in the area was dead and the chances of finding more good logs locally was slim. The deteriorated boards became kindling… a friend with a tree service is saving oak for me.


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## WIslxer

TLDR whole thread. Two words if it hasn't been said already: bore cut.


----------



## slowp

Scary things happen while bucking too. The mill had shut down and everybody was out cutting firewood. This blowdown was flat on the ground and laid off mill workers were working on it when I went by in the morning. When I came back by later, they were gone and the tree was like this. Blowdown needs a bit of studying before cutting sometimes. Cutting off the root wad might have been the way to go instead of top down.


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## kdjacob2000

As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.

The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.

Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.

Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.

Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.

Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.


----------



## windblown

It


kdjacob2000 said:


> As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.
> 
> The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.
> 
> Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.
> 
> Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.
> 
> Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.
> 
> Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.



All I see as a casual wood cutter is an extremely shallow face cut, which has already been mentioned. It was deep enough to create a decent hinge width but far too shallow given the nature of the trunk shape and tree type to be of much use. Studying "rules" for tree felling is great but applying the "right rule" to the wrong tree can have unexpected results. Your tree obviously didn't read the GOT book.


----------



## JimR

slowp said:


> Scary things happen while bucking too. The mill had shut down and everybody was out cutting firewood. This blowdown was flat on the ground and laid off mill workers were working on it when I went by in the morning. When I came back by later, they were gone and the tree was like this. Blowdown needs a bit of studying before cutting sometimes. Cutting off the root wad might have been the way to go instead of top down.
> View attachment 976579


That is a good way to get hurt cutting an uprooted tree. I always cut the root ball off first.


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## Westboastfaller

10 percent hinge is just a guideline. One Faller that was on here told me he had an ash barber chair at 1/2" hinge. Dog in and always be fast on the last 2-3" Cut all the sapwood first as it gives you 2 ways to reduce B/C. It will help speed up the back cut plus you are eliminating the live fibres that may be knot clear and more prone to splitting.++.


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## slowp

JimR said:


> That is a good way to get hurt cutting an uprooted tree. I always cut the root ball off first.


I don't ALWAYS nothing when dealing with blowdown. I take time and ponder each one because the tension varies greatly in them. That's the point of my post--ponder first, cut later.


----------



## Zaedock

Good to see quite a few Mass folks here. Lots of good advice too. 

I typically bore cut my ash. EAB has wrecked havoc in my area, West of Worcester, and it has been the safest for me.
One thing that stood out in that Husky video is "Every foot counts" on your distance when cutting the trigger. 

I have some small ash that are wicked leaners that need to come down. 
Ponder First, Cut Later is what I'll certainly be doing.


----------



## northmanlogging

JimR said:


> That is a good way to get hurt cutting an uprooted tree. I always cut the root ball off first.


its windblow, the tensions are largely unknown to us, yes cutting the stump wad off is usually a good idea, but is it prone to rolling over or back? does the stem have side pressure, so that when the but is released will it whip around, killing the cutter? we simply don't know. 

More often then not, starting from the top and working your way back is safer, at least then one end of what you are cutting doesn't have as much energy in it and can be more predictable. worst case the stump rights itself but you are well out of the way. 

what dude should have done is relieve cut the bottom of said tree so that it had room to move some, however we again, were not there.


----------



## northmanlogging

kdjacob2000 said:


> As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.
> 
> The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.
> 
> Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.
> 
> Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.
> 
> Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.
> 
> Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.


So, it does appear that you bore cut it, at least from pic #3 
but I will say again the face cut was just too shallow. another inch or 3 and ya would of been into the rotten guts, which would reduce tension and possibly eliminate the chair, doesn't mean it wouldn't of happened, just more likely as not. 

Goes to show though, that even if you do everything "correct" it can and will go wrong.


----------



## Westboastfaller

slowp said:


> Scary things happen while bucking too. The mill had shut down and everybody was out cutting firewood. This blowdown was flat on the ground and laid off mill workers were working on it when I went by in the morning. When I came back by later, they were gone and the tree was like this. Blowdown needs a bit of studying before cutting sometimes. Cutting off the root wad might have been the way to go instead of top down.
> View attachment 976579


He just didn't under buck. Still would have broke the bottom out without a notch with all that pressure. Always go 4ft past spec measurement on cedar poles and buck it first when top is suspended..for this reason.


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## Fireman Bill

Hey all,

I’m a chainsaw instructor and i too was taught the Swedish way of logging. I also have learned from many who where not taught that way. So I’ve compiled all that I’ve been taught and learned over the years into my classes. One thing i know is, once you think you know whats going to happen you’ve lost the game. Now these dead dry ash trees act like a hard frozen pine tree. They love to separate just behind the hinge and barber chair. I had a series of barber chairs from these dead ash trees and kinda got pissed off. So i started experimenting with techniques. I found a way thats almost 100 percent in preventing an explosive barber chair on these as trees. I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge. Now drop down and bore cut your tree. Set up your hinge square and leave 10% holding wood on the back being careful to know if the tree is sound on the back with no punk wood. If no wedges needed cut the back holding wood and leave at your 45 angle. 36 straight ash trees and no barber chair yet. Yes yet. Anyway just my take on the knowledge I’ve gained thru the years. I have 59 ash trees to fell in the next few weeks some are big some are 12”-16” which can be the ones that get ya. The darn dead limbs above ya are what i hate. I tend to try to set my hinge up where i can stand avoiding the dangerous limbs above. I never cut alone and use my partner as a spotter who can alert me if something is seen sketchy. I hope everyone stays safe and even as an older dude i seem to learn everyday………..See ya……


----------



## catbuster

For anyone reading this, at any time: Don’t do anything the guy above me said he did. 

There should only be one open kerf on each side of the tree. 

Also, frozen evergreens are brittle, but the long fibers generally will hold the stem together.


----------



## northmanlogging

Fireman Bill said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I’m a chainsaw instructor and i too was taught the Swedish way of logging. I also have learned from many who where not taught that way. So I’ve compiled all that I’ve been taught and learned over the years into my classes. One thing i know is, once you think you know whats going to happen you’ve lost the game. Now these dead dry ash trees act like a hard frozen pine tree. They love to separate just behind the hinge and barber chair. I had a series of barber chairs from these dead ash trees and kinda got pissed off. So i started experimenting with techniques. I found a way thats almost 100 percent in preventing an explosive barber chair on these as trees. I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge. Now drop down and bore cut your tree. Set up your hinge square and leave 10% holding wood on the back being careful to know if the tree is sound on the back with no punk wood. If no wedges needed cut the back holding wood and leave at your 45 angle. 36 straight ash trees and no barber chair yet. Yes yet. Anyway just my take on the knowledge I’ve gained thru the years. I have 59 ash trees to fell in the next few weeks some are big some are 12”-16” which can be the ones that get ya. The darn dead limbs above ya are what i hate. I tend to try to set my hinge up where i can stand avoiding the dangerous limbs above. I never cut alone and use my partner as a spotter who can alert me if something is seen sketchy. I hope everyone stays safe and even as an older dude i seem to learn everyday………..See ya……


Please ignore this. >>> "I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge."<<<

unless you like being dead, or crippled


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## GrizG

catbuster said:


> For anyone reading this, at any time: Don’t do anything the guy above me said he did.
> 
> There should only be one open kerf on each side of the tree.
> 
> Also, frozen evergreens are brittle, but the long fibers generally will hold the stem together.


I didn’t read that post as saying he was doing anything but a bore about a foot above the hinge and as far toward the notch as the front of the hinge. I didn’t read it as making a full back cut at that location. That bore would serve as a stop cut for the split if a barber chair developed down at the hinge back cut. I’d be interested in hearing from the poster of that technique about my interpretation of what he wrote…


----------



## rwoods

kdjacob2000 said:


> So it seems from the responses so far that ash has a propensity to barber chair. That's helpful.
> 
> Let me pose a question to the community:
> 
> Consider an straight-up 20" DBH ash. Is there a recommended felling technique anyone can offer that minimizes the chances of barber chairing on its way down?
> 
> (I'm deliberately excluding leaners, rot, etc. to see if there's any consensus on chair-minimizing felling technique.)
> 
> Thanks!


I bring no credentials to this question beyond a tab bit of cutting dying and dead ash. Practically every ash presents differently, and all dead ones can be plain dangerous. Much of the time you won't know what it will do until it does it, so other than that take my comments with a grain of salt. 

I don't see any indication that stem stalled or even that the hinge flexed at all, I believe the chair was likely a result of a hinge that was too thick for this particular tree making a chair easier than flexing the hinge.

Take a look at woodfarmer's pictures, he is felling larger diameter ash with a hinge proportionately much smaller than yours. Much of the ash I have cut this year is 24" to 32" with leans or limb loads; I am constantly amazed with sound dead ash how small the hinge must be before the stem will begin to move. I have no particular expertise, but I have had only one ash barber chair though my cuts were textbook unlike much of my usual cutting. Upon examination, I noted the tree had an undetected "dry rot" streak on one side. I didn't see any defect on the backside of your chair.

The ability to establish the hinge is one of the touted benefits of boring cutting; however, it is only a benefit if the hinge is the correct for the tree being cut - a fact you usually won't know until your saw is out of the cut. Of course, if there is no movement, you can get back in the cut and thin it - but obviously with your tree it moved enough to chair. Whether or not, a forward cut would have been fast enough (a thinner hinge) to prevent a chair we will never know.

A lot of words to say, dead ash is unpredictable and there is no fail-safe method or formulae. A contrary mentality is an accident waiting to happen.

Ron


----------



## catbuster

GrizG said:


> I didn’t read that post as saying he was doing anything but a bore about a foot above the hinge and as far toward the notch as the front of the hinge. I didn’t read it as making a full back cut at that location. That bore would serve as a stop cut for the split if a barber chair developed down at the hinge back cut. I’d be interested in hearing from the poster of that technique about my interpretation of what he wrote…



It reads an awful lot to me like he’s recommending there be two back cuts, one one foot above the other. 

That’s not smart.


----------



## Jhenderson

MtbIdaho said:


> Greetings from Idaho. I think some GOL techniques have their place in a tough spot… But boring every tree just because… seems dumb.


It is dumb. Thats why they Don’t teach it.


----------



## Fireman Bill

gflyingsquirrel said:


> Im a power line hazard tree faller in Santa Cruz and any tree or large branch with some lean can barber and should be bore cut. Face cut doesnt really matter if theres enough lean to barber. Theres better vids on Youtube but Im not cutting timber for $ so I like a High angle top cut to keep the tree steady all the way down and have a good look at how good my holding wood is. With a diseased tree a shallow face is often best as the sapwood is more flexible. For the backcut you bore in (about an inch or two above the bottom of the face) begin in about the middle of the back cut with the lower quadrant of the tip of the bar, plunge through, now carefully come up to the face leaving your hinge set up perfect now back out leaving at least 10% sound wood at the back of the tree. If there is side lean you may want to start in the back strap and as you work up to the face set some wedges. Then you can either just keep going out the back or pull out, set wedges and hit the back strap under full power a tiny bit above your bore cut. Be ready to run 'cause shes gonna go quick. Voila, safe falling brother! I dont know if its a game when losing means dying. Heres a video with everything you need to know



I was taught instructor school by this guys partner at Husqvarna. Best chainsaw class I’ve ever had.


----------



## Fireman Bill

catbuster said:


> It reads an awful lot to me like he’s recommending there be two back cuts, one one foot above the other.
> 
> That’s not smart.


No i not making any back cuts. Simply another bore cut above the 1st.


----------



## Fireman Bill

northmanlogging said:


> Please ignore this. >>> "I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge."<<<
> 
> unless you like being dead, or crippled


Ive had nothing but good experiences with this method. Nothing is different except a small bore cut above the first. Nothing im saying raises the danger level above any other bore cut technique. The deep face cuts that some are recommending are dangerous and not needed. Everyone needs to decide what works for them and i have found this to work great. Heck it takes practice at every trade and veering from the standard or everyday cut is hard for some. Ill give my number to anyone who’d like it as i am real and confident about my profession. If one refuses to learn and decides he is the one and only then that individual is truly done growing in life. Just another dead tree.


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## Jed1124

This is getting more painful by the post.


----------



## catbuster

Fireman Bill said:


> No i not making any back cuts. Simply another bore cut above the 1st.



Alright-Explain to me exactly what that upper bore cut does, exactly. As best I can figure, it’s just another crippled spot in the trunk. No better than a patch of rot, woodpecker hole or any other void. You’ve also cut the tension side of the tree, it’s not like the thing is going to close up.

Let’s say the strap left on it is rotten. Once the tree moves it comes apart. That gives the tree an opening to go backwards as it would open, because, well, there’s nothing to hold it together. One would think it would cause a stress riser and cause a tree to split along its fibers. This would be the definition of a barberchair, no?

I’m just a little confused about why someone would intentionally cause any more weakening of the stem beyond what is necessary to put it on the ground.

I also don’t care who your instructor was. Dangerous practice is dangerous practice. Lastly, a lot of experience using bad practice is bad experience. There are a lot of people who have just been lucky their entire life and not been bitten. Being bitten sucks, so it’s best to unlearn bad habits as quickly a possible.


----------



## northmanlogging

Fireman Bill said:


> Ive had nothing but good experiences with this method. Nothing is different except a small bore cut above the first. Nothing im saying raises the danger level above any other bore cut technique. The deep face cuts that some are recommending are dangerous and not needed. Everyone needs to decide what works for them and i have found this to work great. Heck it takes practice at every trade and veering from the standard or everyday cut is hard for some. Ill give my number to anyone who’d like it as i am real and confident about my profession. If one refuses to learn and decides he is the one and only then that individual is truly done growing in life. Just another dead tree.


Stick to putting out fires, and Ill stick to cutting trees down

First you claim to be a chainsaw instructor, then you claim to be taught by a husqvarna dealers buddies' cousin which is it? 

What you are advocating is foolish to the extreme, not only does it give additional fracture points for the chair to form, if it doesn't cause a chair, its just a waste of time, to say nothing of too shallow of a face cut. IF YOU WERE AN ACTUAL INSTRUCTOR WORTH THE TITLE, YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THIS. 

Should we start on escape paths? you don't simply keep one in mind YOU CLEAR A MINIMUM OF 2 BEFORE YOU START CUTTING A TREE any tree for that matter. Or how some instructor has had a series of close calls that you are clearly lucky to survive, yet you had to invent some new absolutely BS remedy for? news flash chuckles, there are lots of actual remedies that do in fact work, many have been discussed above

this isn't a matter of what works for the individual blah blah blah, or freedom to express ones own stupidity, its a matter of giving absolutely bull **** unfounded and possibly completely made up advice to folks that could potentially be killed by following said advice. 

Frankly if you are passing yourself off as some instructor and gods forbid taking money for said services, when someone gets killed using your dumb ass ********, you will ultimately be responsible.


----------



## GrizG

kdjacob2000 said:


> As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.
> 
> The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.
> 
> Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.
> 
> Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.
> 
> Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.
> 
> Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.


Image 7 caught my attention. I enlarged it and it appears that there is an old wound on the close side and perhaps a knot on the far side of the splinter sticking up off the stump. Can you confirm that? If that is so perhaps that particular tree had a weak vertical area fairly close above the notch/back-cut that failed and caused that particular tree to barber chair...


----------



## kdjacob2000

Hi GrizG. 

I see what you're seeing in the photo but won't be back on site until Saturday, when I'll investigate and get back you.


----------



## rwoods

kdjacob2000 said:


> Hi GrizG.
> 
> I see what you're seeing in the photo but won't be back on site until Saturday, when I'll investigate and get back you.



While you are at it, check the right side of the standing stub - the fiber structure at the split looks different than the other, possibly dry rot or otherwise weaken?

Ron


----------



## Fireman Bill

northmanlogging said:


> Stick to putting out fires, and Ill stick to cutting trees down
> 
> First you claim to be a chainsaw instructor, then you claim to be taught by a husqvarna dealers buddies' cousin which is it?
> 
> What you are advocating is foolish to the extreme, not only does it give additional fracture points for the chair to form, if it doesn't cause a chair, its just a waste of time, to say nothing of too shallow of a face cut. IF YOU WERE AN ACTUAL INSTRUCTOR WORTH THE TITLE, YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THIS.
> 
> Should we start on escape paths? you don't simply keep one in mind YOU CLEAR A MINIMUM OF 2 BEFORE YOU START CUTTING A TREE any tree for that matter. Or how some instructor has had a series of close calls that you are clearly lucky to survive, yet you had to invent some new absolutely BS remedy for? news flash chuckles, there are lots of actual remedies that do in fact work, many have been discussed above
> 
> this isn't a matter of what works for the individual blah blah blah, or freedom to express ones own stupidity, its a matter of giving absolutely bull **** unfounded and possibly completely made up advice to folks that could potentially be killed by following said advice.
> 
> Frankly if you are passing yourself off as some instructor and gods forbid taking money for said services, when someone gets killed using your dumb ass ********, you will ultimately be responsible.


First of all I’m not passing myself as anyone. I am a chainsaw coach and instructor who takes pride in everything I do. Secondly I’m not teaching what I have said to anyone. I was merely saying what I’ve been trying and was working on dead Ash trees. How do you think the different techniques are brought about in the world. Like the tongue and grove cut, the bypass cuts and even the bore cutting??? I’ve not attacked you in anyway so I’d appreciate the same courtesy. 
Also Husqvarna’s Tim Ard (spelling) did a series of instructor classes. Years ago and his partner went one direction teaching and Tim went to another area teaching. The class i took was conducted at Fort AP Hill in VA. Great class. Have a great day.


----------



## Cricket

kjorrrits said:


> As far as I understand as soon as soon as The tree starts to die it will rapidly begin to dry rot, causing the tree to harden and become brittle. This process moves quickly and begins before it looks like the tree is dead. Eab might make it worse than a normal die off but it’s just the nature of the wood in the tree.


This. I will swear that the one jammed up between a live walnut and the barn wall, wasn't dead completely when it started to go punk. It was the weirdest thing I ever saw.


----------



## kenmbz

I have ones where the middle is almost dust and the top and stump are solid. Some where the root is dust, the middle is dust and the top solid. Some with one side solid and one side dust.
Some are wet rot too, just to make things interesting.

No rhyme or reason. Think they are all just setting up to test my wood avoidance skills.


----------



## northmanlogging

Fireman Bill said:


> First of all I’m not passing myself as anyone. I am a chainsaw coach and instructor who takes pride in everything I do. Secondly I’m not teaching what I have said to anyone. I was merely saying what I’ve been trying and was working on dead Ash trees. How do you think the different techniques are brought about in the world. Like the tongue and grove cut, the bypass cuts and even the bore cutting??? I’ve not attacked you in anyway so I’d appreciate the same courtesy.
> Also Husqvarna’s Tim Ard (spelling) did a series of instructor classes. Years ago and his partner went one direction teaching and Tim went to another area teaching. The class i took was conducted at Fort AP Hill in VA. Great class. Have a great day.


your a coach that doesn't teach anyone? nice

as for the tongue and groove cut, its pretty much BS too FYI

there is plenty of room for innovation, however when someone questions the safety of said innovation, especially multiple folks who's profession your playing at, who I might add highlighted the exact same concern, you should probably pay attention. 

The only reason I'm calling you out is that you are advocating idiotic dangerous activity, then doubling down by claiming to be a coach, or instructor


----------



## catbuster

northmanlogging said:


> your a coach that doesn't teach anyone? nice
> 
> as for the tongue and groove cut, its pretty much BS too FYI
> 
> there is plenty of room for innovation, however when someone questions the safety of said innovation, especially multiple folks who's profession your playing at, who I might add highlighted the exact same concern, you should probably pay attention.
> 
> The only reason I'm calling you out is that you are advocating idiotic dangerous activity, then doubling down by claiming to be a coach, or instructor



He hasn’t answered my question yet… I’m just a washed up C Sawyer. Both firefighter and saw man.

Anyway… While I do not endorse the Scandinavian Stump Dance, it can work. As a mather of fact-it usually does work. I mostly dislike the face cut.

I understand why it’s done the way it is, it’s fast to gun, but I’ve always treated the flat part of the face as my gunning cut. I hate how shallow the face is. I get it, all you need is to leave part of the tree unsupported and it will move in that direction, and the height and relatively shallow angle allows for significant travel before completely breaking the hinge. I just prefer a lot more depth which leaves a lot less area supported and a lot more space to allow gravity to do its part of the tree tipping game. A bigger opening means the angle can be shallower because there’s more travel before breaking the hinge. 1/3 the diameter is the industry standard, and it works pretty well and is very forgiving.

Setting the hinge first makes sense if someone doesn’t know the gut integrity of the tree. Boring also lets you get the majority of the wood out of the guts of the tree if you’re under barred, instead of trying to chase both sides of the tree. Then you release it when you decide _you _want it to be released.

It works a lot better in smaller diameter timber with small saws and short bars. It just feels wrong to me. But I feel like some of the methods from the GOL are still things to keep in your mental toolbox.

OP, I feel like your face cut is too shallow. I also think the hinge is too thick. I don’t see anything too punky in the stump. I think your hinge is the biggest cause of what happened here.


----------



## northmanlogging

catbuster said:


> He hasn’t answered my question yet… I’m just a washed up C Sawyer. Both firefighter and saw man.
> 
> Anyway… While I do not endorse the Scandinavian Stump Dance, it can work. As a mather of fact-it usually does work, as a matter of fact. I mostly dislike the face cut.
> 
> I understand why it’s done the way it is, it’s fast to gun, but I’ve always treated the flat part of the face as my gunning cut. I hate how shallow the face is. I get it, all you need is to leave part of the tree unsupported and it will move in that direction, and the height and relatively shallow angle allows for significant travel before completely breaking the hinge. I just prefer a lot more depth which leaves a lot less area supported and a lot more space to allow gravity to do its part of the tree tipping game. A bigger opening means the angle can be shallower because there’s more travel before breaking the hinge. 1/3 the diameter is the industry standard, and it works pretty well and is very forgiving.
> 
> Setting the hinge first makes sense if someone doesn’t know the gut integrity of the tree. Boring also lets you get the majority of the wood out of the guts of the tree if you’re under barred, instead of trying to chase both sides of the tree. Then you release it when you decide _you _want it to be released.
> 
> It works a lot better in smaller diameter timber with small saws and short bars. It just feels wrong to me. But I feel like some of the methods from the GOL are still things to keep in your mental toolbox.
> 
> OP, I feel like your face cut is too shallow. I also think the hinge is too thick. I don’t see anything too punky in the stump. I think your hinge is the biggest cause of what happened here.


Meh, the big open face thing to me is just wasting wood, slow, and kinda silly looking, gunning from the slope cut is also a good way to add inaccuracy, I get that its easier to learn, which is why its taught, because its easier to learn... (K.eep I.t S.imple S.tupid) its still dumb looking...
Though the argument about short bars is sorta ok, there are better easier ways to manage that handicap, without dancing around said stump, though admittedly they take some practice and skill to pull off.


----------



## GrizG

northmanlogging said:


> Meh, the big open face thing to me is just wasting wood, slow, and kinda silly looking, gunning from the slope cut is also a good way to add inaccuracy, I get that its easier to learn, which is why its taught, because its easier to learn... (K.eep I.t S.imple S.tupid) its still dumb looking...
> Though the argument about short bars is sorta ok, there are better easier ways to manage that handicap, without dancing around said stump, though admittedly they take some practice and skill to pull off.


The use of the technique taught in GOL 1 definitely has it's place. For example, I do a lot of hazard and fallen tree cutting on rail trails (25+ miles of them) and hiking trails and even with a spotter, signs, and physical barricades trail users will ride bicycles or walk into the danger zone... I've had them go around our truck, barriers and signs and stand right where a cut tree is gunned to fall. Then they stand there and ask questions or make comments...  Having that trigger allows me one last chance to make sure the area is clear before I release the tree. 

While GOL was initially geared towards loggers the open face cut and plunge cut to set the hinge technique definitely has it's place in the tool kit of other tree workers, like the arborists to which this site is geared. I'd venture that GOL teaches this technique in GOL 1 as it introduces the students to a lot of things in a controlled manner (e.g., gunning, plunge cuts, setting the hinge thickness, using wedges). Some of those tasks are more difficult to do in a controlled manner with the more common face cut/back cut. 

I'm curious to know why you feel gunning from the slope (top) cut adds to inaccuracy? My Stihl saws (MS261, MS461, and even an MS170) have gunning sights on the top, right and left side of the saw and the top and a side can be used together during gunning. Using two gunning sights together results in a longer sighting tool than using one which aids in accurate aiming. I'd venture that using two together most likely helps with creating a level cut also as together than can be seen as plumb or not.


----------



## northmanlogging

GrizG said:


> The use of the technique taught in GOL 1 definitely has it's place. For example, I do a lot of hazard and fallen tree cutting on rail trails (25+ miles of them) and hiking trails and even with a spotter, signs, and physical barricades trail users will ride bicycles or walk into the danger zone... I've had them go around our truck, barriers and signs and stand right where a cut tree is gunned to fall. Then they stand there and ask questions or make comments...  Having that trigger allows me one last chance to make sure the area is clear before I release the tree.
> 
> While GOL was initially geared towards loggers the open face cut and plunge cut to set the hinge technique definitely has it's place in the tool kit of other tree workers, like the arborists to which this site is geared. I'd venture that GOL teaches this technique in GOL 1 as it introduces the students to a lot of things in a controlled manner (e.g., gunning, plunge cuts, setting the hinge thickness, using wedges). Some of those tasks are more difficult to do in a controlled manner with the more common face cut/back cut.
> 
> I'm curious to know why you feel gunning from the slope (top) cut adds to inaccuracy? My Stihl saws (MS261, MS461, and even an MS170) have gunning sights on the top, right and left side of the saw and the top and a side can be used together during gunning. Using two gunning sights together results in a longer sighting tool than using one which aids in accurate aiming. I'd venture that using two together most likely helps with creating a level cut also as together than can be seen as plumb or not.


compound angles, coupled with limited vision, and parallax can be problematic. IF you pay attention to both lines it can work out, but its difficult to do so, not impossible, but considerably more difficult then gunning with a single line and a level saw. 

and your trying to keep a stump height, face depth and gun direction all on the first and most critical cut, lot more efficient to gun cut level, then all you need to worry about is direction and depth and you can more or less focus on either individually, once thats set you just make the slope cut match, it can be crooked, or as sloppy as you can manage as long as its not misaligned with the gun cut, Hel you can make the attempt 17 or more times as long as you stop before cutting past the gun cut. or even chop it out with an axe just for funsies, 

Besides, that straight and level cut is the one that is most critical, the slope cut merely provides room for the stem to move, the flat cut is what directs the tree, both during and somewhat after the fall. Might as well eliminate any other distractions while working on that one cut, such as making it line up with a slope cut, which can be tricky if said slope cut isn't level, or any number of other factors

I do feel like some of this is taught simply because the "instructors" never stopped to consider the multitude of steps involved, they simply repeat whatever was told to them... etc 

Again this is a human condition thing, most humans will simply mimic what they have been taught, usually the first thing they were taught, and never question how or why they are doing it a certain way, luckily most will pick up on a new idea quickly, though you may have noticed a minority will get self righteously angry over a "new idea" or "change" (these people are assholes and should be avoided)


----------



## MtbIdaho

Jhenderson said:


> It is dumb. Thats why they Don’t teach it.


I took some GOL training in the late 90s early 2000s. It was basically a huge bore cutting session. I’m not saying it’s all bad, I still use a lot of it…. I bore cut hard leaners, and double cuts seem easier via bore cut. The “top lock” is pretty handy also


----------



## MtbIdaho

GrizG said:


> The use of the technique taught in GOL 1 definitely has it's place. For example, I do a lot of hazard and fallen tree cutting on rail trails (25+ miles of them) and hiking trails and even with a spotter, signs, and physical barricades trail users will ride bicycles or walk into the danger zone... I've had them go around our truck, barriers and signs and stand right where a cut tree is gunned to fall. Then they stand there and ask questions or make comments...  Having that trigger allows me one last chance to make sure the area is clear before I release the tree.
> 
> While GOL was initially geared towards loggers the open face cut and plunge cut to set the hinge technique definitely has it's place in the tool kit of other tree workers, like the arborists to which this site is geared. I'd venture that GOL teaches this technique in GOL 1 as it introduces the students to a lot of things in a controlled manner (e.g., gunning, plunge cuts, setting the hinge thickness, using wedges). Some of those tasks are more difficult to do in a controlled manner with the more common face cut/back cut.
> 
> I'm curious to know why you feel gunning from the slope (top) cut adds to inaccuracy? My Stihl saws (MS261, MS461, and even an MS170) have gunning sights on the top, right and left side of the saw and the top and a side can be used together during gunning. Using two gunning sights together results in a longer sighting tool than using one which aids in accurate aiming. I'd venture that using two together most likely helps with creating a level cut also as together than can be seen as plumb or


Yup, I like your “trigger” idea for added safety. I think the conventional top cut is more accurate. In northwestern clearcuts the humbolt is safe and productive once you have space to lay down trees.


----------



## Gologit

Fireman Bill said:


> First of all I’m not passing myself as anyone. I am a chainsaw coach and instructor who takes pride in everything I do. Secondly I’m not teaching what I have said to anyone. I was merely saying what I’ve been trying and was working on dead Ash trees. How do you think the different techniques are brought about in the world. Like the tongue and grove cut, the bypass cuts and even the bore cutting??? I’ve not attacked you in anyway so I’d appreciate the same courtesy.
> Also Husqvarna’s Tim Ard (spelling) did a series of instructor classes. Years ago and his partner went one direction teaching and Tim went to another area teaching. The class i took was conducted at Fort AP Hill in VA. Great class. Have a great day.


Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else is. I hope not anyway.
The method you propose is wrong headed. About all it will do is get you hurt. I admire your goal but in this case your methodology just absolutely sucks.
If all your advice is as poor as this example you need to put a disclaimer on your posts to keep people from depending on your knowledge to stay safe.


----------



## Gologit

northmanlogging said:


> compound angles, coupled with limited vision, and parallax can be problematic. IF you pay attention to both lines it can work out, but its difficult to do so, not impossible, but considerably more difficult then gunning with a single line and a level saw.
> 
> and your trying to keep a stump height, face depth and gun direction all on the first and most critical cut, lot more efficient to gun cut level, then all you need to worry about is direction and depth and you can more or less focus on either individually, once thats set you just make the slope cut match, it can be crooked, or as sloppy as you can manage as long as its not misaligned with the gun cut, Hel you can make the attempt 17 or more times as long as you stop before cutting past the gun cut. or even chop it out with an axe just for funsies,
> 
> Besides, that straight and level cut is the one that is most critical, the slope cut merely provides room for the stem to move, the flat cut is what directs the tree, both during and somewhat after the fall. Might as well eliminate any other distractions while working on that one cut, such as making it line up with a slope cut, which can be tricky if said slope cut isn't level, or any number of other factors
> 
> I do feel like some of this is taught simply because the "instructors" never stopped to consider the multitude of steps involved, they simply repeat whatever was told to them... etc
> 
> Again this is a human condition thing, most humans will simply mimic what they have been taught, usually the first thing they were taught, and never question how or why they are doing it a certain way, luckily most will pick up on a new idea quickly, though you may have noticed a minority will get self righteously angry over a "new idea" or "change" (these people are assholes and should be avoided)


Well said.


----------



## GrizG

MtbIdaho said:


> Yup, I like your “trigger” idea for added safety. I think the conventional top cut is more accurate. In northwestern clearcuts the humbolt is safe and productive once you have space to lay down trees.


The difference between arborist work and logger work... When I do TSI felling what I use depends on the tree. When I do arborist type work on land trust properties and rail trails I use the open face, bore cut and trigger as I need to make damned sure nobody has walked or bicycled into the danger zone. Case in point, my cutting partner and I had put up signs to "stop and ask permission before proceeding," cones and ropes on a rail trail while we were felling beaver gnawed and felled trees. I had a gnawed tree cut and wedged needing only to cut the trigger when a woman walked through the warnings and walked straight toward me in line with the falling target zone... she engaged me in conversation! I advised her to move as she was in the danger zone of a cut tree... she moved and watched me cut the trigger. It fell right where she was standing. The look on her face was priceless... hopefully it was a learning experience. Arborist work often occurs around people who are not woods, tree, or felling wise.


----------



## GrizG

I came across a new video that shows something I'd only heard about from a theoretical perspective... nothing I ever did! That being a kerf bypass on the face cut acting like a mini notch and triggering a barber chair. This is something else folks might want to examine if they are having barber chairs with ash.


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## GrizG

Another video on barber chairs... the bypass cuts in the face cut could explain some of the barber chairs reported here, the ones that blow out the side included.


----------



## kenmbz

The ash are dead and the wood in the center is sometimes dust.
So far only plunge cut seems to work.
You can see chips to dust back to chips while doing the cut.
I never had a single barber chair when the ash were in good shape.
Will watch the video later, always good to see something that may reduce the risk.


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## kenmbz

So I watched both videos.
No dutchman in my cut. I always run my hand/glove through the notch to make sure no dutchman either side or back.
Did not do a backcut without a notch/face cut 
Cause = Dead Ash with some parts of the core turned to dust/dry rot. Seems that the plunge cut is still the lowest risk.

Anyone want to chime in? Most of you have more experience than I do so any advice welcome.

The only time I am using ropes on these Ash it to angle pull the larger branches down so they don't try to flatten me. Otherwise just saw and wedges. Roped a few ones that were still budding a little bit with success.
Most of the ones left are completely bare.


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## rwoods

Without a doubt Dutchmans cause many barber chairs, but all barber chairs are not caused by a Dutchman. My one and only ash chair had textbook cuts - no Dutchman or anything else to stall the fall.

Other trees may have similar characteristics as diseased ash, but I have never run across any. To say ash is chair prone has not been my experience. I have cut large ash standing 60 to 70 degrees without a chair. Dead ash dry rots unpredictably and in different spots - varies greatly from tree to tree. Dry rot can explode in dust or have the consistency of styrofoam. In either case, it has no holding power. This is just one reason that I don’t rely on pulling or pushing or wedging - the top can break off at any place and at any time. If I can’t fell with the lean or limb load, and from a spot with a clear overhead, I leave it for nature or someone with safe mechanical means.

As stated before dead ash is dangerous.

Ron


----------



## Fireman Bill

GrizG said:


> Your comments all revolve around the first course in the Game of Logging program. It is true that GOL 1 focuses on the open face, bore cut, trigger technique. However, the complete program goes much deeper. For example, following is an excerpt from http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php
> 
> *Level 1* focuses on introducing the participant to open face felling and the development of techniques to safely use it. Topics covered include personal protective equipment, chainsaw safety features, chainsaw reactive forces, bore cutting, pre-planning the fell, and understanding hinge wood strength.
> *Level 2* focuses on maximizing chainsaw performance through basic maintenance, carburetor setting, and filing techniques. Limbing and bucking techniques are introduced, spring pole cutting is covered and more felling is practiced.
> *Level 3* focuses on techniques for handling difficult trees. Topics covered include limbing, height measurement, segment calculations, wedging techniques and hinge placement. The felling is done against the tree's natural lean and participants also limb and buck using techniques demonstrated in level II.
> *Level 4* focuses on ways to maximize a harvest plan for safety and productivity. Felling is practiced at working speed using all the techniques from previous levels. This level is geared to the user group.
> 
> Storm Damage Training​
> Game of Logging provides specialized training that addressed the unique hazards inherent in storm damaged settings. This training is meant to provide saw users the information and techniques demanded by this dangerous environment and the forces and pressures of wind felled trees.
> 
> *Demonstration & Hands-On Techniques: *Participants will be exposed to and have the opportunity to perform many of the following techniques during the day:
> 
> Limb-Loc
> Top-Loc
> Tongue & Groove
> Axle Cut
> Axle Loc
> Notch Bucking & Directional Notch Bucking (Controlled Release Cut)
> Roll Away Cut
> Buck with Wedge
> Flagging Hazards
> Tab Cut
> Oversized Log Buck
> Dirty Log Bucking
> Using ropes and mechanical advantage techniques
> *Demonstration Only by GOL Trainer: *Participants will be exposed to these techniques, but will not necessarily perform them during training day:
> 
> Scissor-Cut - Show using wedge and if applicable rope and come-along option.
> The release of extreme springpole tension.
> "Pole in a Hole"
> *Five Point Plan for Storm Damaged Trees:*
> 
> OVERHEAD HAZARDS!!
> Hazards on the ground
> Assess lean weight and pressure
> Cutting technique or cut plan
> Escape route


Thanks for posting this. We all need reminders on proper techniques. Let’s face it though, barber chair can happen on these ash trees. The trees don’t care if your a 30 year man or 2 year man. Your initial prep/escape routes will be what keeps you safe when they do barber chair.


----------



## rwoods

While waiting for the OP to report back on his stump re-examine, I did a little math - 80% of diameter on a round stem is always going to be a little short of a 1/3 deep face which old Dent recommends *generally* as the minimum depth. Both are general rules to always consider, but Dent and practically anyone else that has cut a bit knows there are no hard fast formulas for safe tree falling. Believing there are such formulas is a quick way to failure. All trees are different and pose hazards specific to the tree. Hopefully, I am just preaching to the choir, but dead ash is so abundant in the east I am sure plenty are tempted to jump right on them - after all what can beat pre-seasoned firewood especially when it is offered for free. I will repeat - dead ash is very dangerous. It is like old dynamite. One stick is sound and the next may blow up in your hand. The fresher the stick the better your odds. The older (the longer dead) the stick the worse your odds. Even the BBC is reporting on the dangers. 


gggGary said:


> Ash dieback: Exploding diseased trees risk lives - experts
> 
> 
> Removal has killed forestry workers but there are concerns people may try to do it at home.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com



If you are going to cut dead ash, do some homework and check out the many threads and pictures on this site. If you are bore-cutting to prevent a chair and are counting on establishing the perfect hinge, check out the various hinges posted by different cutters. 

Ron


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## northmanlogging

If anyone is close to an expert on Ded Ash cutting its probably Rwoods, he'll deny it, which means its more true then not. 

I would take what the man says with some humility.


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## Grateful11

Yikes! I've had a couple of them over the years, scary stuff.


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## rwoods

NM, flattered but fairly competent would be a better description. Ron


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## rwoods

@northmanlogging @catbuster - Need to reevaluate my ash falling qualifications. Yesterday:

Rotate the picture to the left until the trees in the background are vertical to get a better perspective of the actual lean of this storm downed ash. 


I stuck my cutting buddy's prized 1010S while trying to make a small face. I went about freeing it with his similarly prized PM800 with an intent to make a deep face to give more momentum with the hope to clear the 1010S and to make room for a wedge to hold the cut open until the 800 was out of the cut - stuck the 800 while reaching for a wedge - I cut too far and I moved too slow. Oddly (and thankfully) while trying unsuccessfully to wedge the 800 free, the 1010S became loose enough to extract. That event was just a ploy to entice me to proceed - the tree rolled during the back cut and stuck a third saw. No damage to the saws. My swelled ego was deflated a bit. 

This ash was sound. I also noted three other fair size ash leafing out. All in the same small area. Hopefully the EAB overlooked them. 

Happy Easter,

Ron


----------



## weimedog

First, I don't consider myself an "expert" qualified to really teach anything, just someone who has dealt with this unique situation and developed a plan that has worked for decades. Had some nasty surprises along the way as well....ended up doing this:

I've been felling ash like that for years and years Two things I do is first ignore the experts who have never done much of them and resort to test book answers designed for pine and healthy hardwoods. That will get u hurt. First I clean the root flares, I do a face cut 10-15 percent of the tree diameter, I bore cut from the face taking out at least 2/3rds of the hinge and take out as much of the heart as I can from the front but don't break thru to the sides or back just yet. REASON is too much hinge promotes the barber chair. So less is better but absolutely need ENOUGH to direct the tree.. It's a balance only experience can give. I then bore cut from the side (sides if its a larger than 30 inch tree ) in the "game of logging" style leaving just enough hinge to direct the tree and a little hold wood in the back so the tree doesn't go just yet. Using this "game of logging approach allows you to carefully and thoughtfully bore cut and "size" the hinges before releasing the tree, a critical point as yet again too much hinge promotes the barber chain and too little is dangerous. On the large "dead" sometime add a wedge during that process so the tree doesn't "crush" and pinch your saw. Step back...evaluate, make damn sure u have a clear escape route away from where things might come tumbling down from the dead branches above. Once the escape plan is internalized, release the tree and escape...fast.

I'll post a couple of videos that kind of show what I've been doing and one in particular shows why

First Here were some I did last weekend that were barber chairs wanting to happen:


----------



## weimedog

This one a real heavy lean, standing dead but stiff strong but very brittle:


----------



## weimedog

In this one I didn't bore cut from the side as it wasn't a leaner and figured I could just cut fast enough. Cost me. But you can see the "pull" and if that was a full hinge , and "thick" you can see either a pull or even a barber chair about to happen.


----------



## weimedog

Had the time to do a step by step, and as close to a "how to" as I'll ever do because EVERY tree is different, and it's very hard to put the "judgement" into a spec as some trees have a different character than others so I don't believe a one way fits all is practical. For the part time feller ( punny right) hire someone on those dangerous ash trees is my recommendation,

TWO area's in particular need focus, how to do a "plunge" or bore cut. And the decision on how much hinge is required to direct the tree but not "pull" or barber chair. Neither of those two subjects are covered in my video's both are critical to the safety and success of what I do. Hopefully someone can "explain" or come up with a way to convey those two subjects. I freely admit I haven't and for that reason don't see my video's as a true "how to" , but as simply documenting what I did on those tree's vs. how and why.


----------



## GrizG

weimedog said:


> This one a real heavy lean, standing dead but stiff strong but very brittle:



I don't know this guy but he has done videos at a saw shop near me... Shokan, NY. I watched some of his build videos in the past. To a large degree his woods look like my woods and his fields remind me of where I used to hunt woodchucks in the Catskills.


----------



## northmanlogging

rwoods said:


> @northmanlogging @catbuster - Need to reevaluate my ash falling qualifications. Yesterday:
> 
> Rotate the picture to the left until the trees in the background are vertical to get a better perspective of the actual lean of this storm downed ash. View attachment 981877
> 
> 
> I stuck my cutting buddy's prized 1010S while trying to make a small face. I went about freeing it with his similarly prized PM800 with an intent to make a deep face to give more momentum with the hope to clear the 1010S and to make room for a wedge to hold the cut open until the 800 was out of the cut - stuck the 800 while reaching for a wedge - I cut too far and I moved too slow. Oddly (and thankfully) while trying unsuccessfully to wedge the 800 free, the 1010S became loose enough to extract. That event was just a ploy to entice me to proceed - the tree rolled during the back cut and stuck a third saw. No damage to the saws. My swelled ego was deflated a bit.
> 
> This ash was sound. I also noted three other fair size ash leafing out. All in the same small area. Hopefully the EAB overlooked them.
> 
> Happy Easter,
> 
> Ron


never said you were perfect lol, but you do show humility which is more often a sign of competence, Claiming to have never made a mistake is red flags in my book.


----------



## rwoods

weimedog, I enjoyed going through your videos. Looks like most of what you were cutting are not as decayed as most of the stuff I have been cutting this season, exceptions of course like the one you cut with the peeling bark. In my limited experience when they are fresher (like the one I cut yesterday) you can get them to move quite a bit much like the leaner you featured. They can still split easily as you know which is why I was pointing the OP to study up on hinges - I think you gave good advice on that subject and showed some excellent examples. I also agree wholeheartedly that there is a learning curve that you have to experience and survive. There is a point in time where I find they are really fun to cut then they seem to get more dangerous by the minute. A transition that I don't always discern. 
Ron


----------



## weimedog

The ones I did in Kentucky were a mix of standing dead with a little integrity and just a decomposed punk tree. They both scare me a bit. But at least with the "punky" ones the chance of a barber chair are less when using "standard" technique as the hinge just breaks & doesn't propagate a crack at the back edge. I do remember years back a "punk" tree broke about 30ft up and folded back at me as the tree went down. A wake up moment. The ones with a little integrity are the worst for me, brittle so the complete hinge is a recipe for a Barber chair as when the tree goes and the hinge bends then at the back "edge" it pulls and can start the fracture that goes right up the tree. Took once or twice experiencing that to both brown the shorts and start changing until I came up with what i do. Take away was too much hinge = issue about to happen on Ash and even hickory. Fortunately then I was still quick enough to survive  ( Note I think in a couple of my video you could see the effect with too much root flare, same thing happens in the middle of the tree if the hinge is there and thick where it has enough stiffness to "pop" the tree )


----------



## rwoods

weimedog said:


> The ones I did in Kentucky were a mix of standing dead with a little integrity and just a decomposed punk tree. They both scare me a bit. But at least with the "punky" ones the chance of a barber chair are less when using "standard" technique as the hinge just breaks & doesn't propagate a crack at the back edge. *I do remember years back a "punk" tree broke about 30ft up and folded back at me as the tree went down. A wake up moment.* The ones with a little integrity are the worst for me, brittle so the complete hinge is a recipe for a Barber chair as when the tree goes and the hinge bends then at the back "edge" it pulls and can start the fracture that goes right up the tree. Took once or twice experiencing that to both brown the shorts and start changing until I came up with what i do. Take away was too much hinge = issue about to happen on Ash and even hickory. Fortunately then I was still quick enough to survive  ( Note I think in a couple of my video you could see the effect with too much root flare, same thing happens in the middle of the tree if the hinge is there and thick where it has enough stiffness to "pop" the tree )



Post from a different thread of one of my experiences:


rwoods said:


> ... .
> 
> I recently cut this one with the lean. First movement and the top (in the foreground) broke off about 15' up; it landed just feet from the stump leaving a stem that I had to wedge over.
> 
> View attachment 955303
> 
> 
> Ron


Ron


----------



## kenmbz

I went to check one this weekend.
The bark around the whole base is loose.
Not sure what to do as it is still holding some large branches pretty far up.
Need to see if I can get a rope up to make sure it does not snap towards neighbors house, though it is far enough away it would lay partially into his lawn.

This one is perplexing me, lean is in the right direction, but obviously this one is dead and rotten.
I have a few, this is the only one that could go into the neighbors space,

Had poison Ivy too, but cut the root before it could bud.

I figure, based on the way the other trees were, whatever branch I try to pull down through the snatch block will be the only one that is still holding strong..........But if I can get the bigger branches down, then the fall will be pretty easy with a plunge cut after removing the bark.

Planning still in progress....


----------



## osteoart

rwoods said:


> @northmanlogging @catbuster - Need to reevaluate my ash falling qualifications. Yesterday:
> 
> Rotate the picture to the left until the trees in the background are vertical to get a better perspective of the actual lean of this storm downed ash. View attachment 981877
> 
> 
> I stuck my cutting buddy's prized 1010S while trying to make a small face. I went about freeing it with his similarly prized PM800 with an intent to make a deep face to give more momentum with the hope to clear the 1010S and to make room for a wedge to hold the cut open until the 800 was out of the cut - stuck the 800 while reaching for a wedge - I cut too far and I moved too slow. Oddly (and thankfully) while trying unsuccessfully to wedge the 800 free, the 1010S became loose enough to extract. That event was just a ploy to entice me to proceed - the tree rolled during the back cut and stuck a third saw. No damage to the saws. My swelled ego was deflated a bit.
> 
> This ash was sound. I also noted three other fair size ash leafing out. All in the same small area. Hopefully the EAB overlooked them.
> 
> Happy Easter,
> 
> Ron


 "Hopefully the EAB overlooked them."
Don't count on it!


----------



## gflyingsquirrel

northmanlogging said:


> D. Douglas Dent, The Art of Timber Falling, though its book form and getting harder to source as Mr. Dent has unfortunately vacated this plane.
> 
> or easier to get Work Safe BC's course on timber falling, it should be available on the YouTube.


We perhaps should not start with an intentional swing dutchman lol. Dent is the man for tricky felling and potential vertical conifer hazards.


----------



## kenmbz

Last 4 Ash I did with plunge cuts and got 3 to line up prefect.
One was a hanger, but that was due to location and me not being a climber.
Only 2 more big ones to go, Those will need to wait a few weeks.


----------



## Fireman Bill

weimedog said:


> First, I don't consider myself an "expert" qualified to really teach anything, just someone who has dealt with this unique situation and developed a plan that has worked for decades. Had some nasty surprises along the way as well....ended up doing this:
> 
> I've been felling ash like that for years and years Two things I do is first ignore the experts who have never done much of them and resort to test book answers designed for pine and healthy hardwoods. That will get u hurt. First I clean the root flares, I do a face cut 10-15 percent of the tree diameter, I bore cut from the face taking out at least 2/3rds of the hinge and take out as much of the heart as I can from the front but don't break thru to the sides or back just yet. REASON is too much hinge promotes the barber chair. So less is better but absolutely need ENOUGH to direct the tree.. It's a balance only experience can give. I then bore cut from the side (sides if its a larger than 30 inch tree ) in the "game of logging" style leaving just enough hinge to direct the tree and a little hold wood in the back so the tree doesn't go just yet. Using this "game of logging approach allows you to carefully and thoughtfully bore cut and "size" the hinges before releasing the tree, a critical point as yet again too much hinge promotes the barber chain and too little is dangerous. On the large "dead" sometime add a wedge during that process so the tree doesn't "crush" and pinch your saw. Step back...evaluate, make damn sure u have a clear escape route away from where things might come tumbling down from the dead branches above. Once the escape plan is internalized, release the tree and escape...fast.
> 
> I'll post a couple of videos that kind of show what I've been doing and one in particular shows why
> 
> First Here were some I did last weekend that were barber chairs wanting to happen:


----------



## Fireman Bill

I’m the same way. Never forgetting to learn with every experience. I do a similar technique as yours but got busted up on here for it. I have finished felling my 59 ash tree project and had 1 short barber chair. My fault because it was a small 18” ash that I just used an open face notch on. Anyway I’ve got a buddy down the road about 6 miles who has had 4 barber chairs in 2-days felling. So now I’m over there helping him. The tree he has have a lot of dead limbs that fall randomly and it’s a terrible risk. I’m a firefighter/NREMT and work for The DOT. We have so many dead ashes along the roadside it’s not even funny and not enoufmgj money to tackle Them all. We had a guy in a crew
Get struck by an 8” Limb just last Monday. After a trip in the ambulance to the er he is just sore. Glanced off
his hard hat and into his shoulder. Thanks for sharing your working experience. I am an chainsaw instructor and every class I seem to learn from someone. When teaching someone to use a saw for the first time it’s amazing the things one needs to know to stay safe. I also learn some people just can not be taught. They are hard headed. Anyway thanks and stay safe.


----------



## Brufab

Alot of ash in my area have vertical cracks/splits, if you can knock the bark off look for these cracks/splits. The tree may barber chair or do something unexpected along these.


----------



## Maintenance supervisor

I took the USDA chainsaw traing a couple of weeks ago and was surprised that the cutting technique was almost a complete copy of Walt's cutting style .
Every cut is a plunge or bore cut and trim the stump on the apex of the notch.
Where I cut we are not saving the log for timber and so we teach some other cuts but it was a great experience and I learned some good planning techniques for every tree.


----------



## Fireman Bill

weimedog said:


> First, I don't consider myself an "expert" qualified to really teach anything, just someone who has dealt with this unique situation and developed a plan that has worked for decades. Had some nasty surprises along the way as well....ended up doing this:
> 
> I've been felling ash like that for years and years Two things I do is first ignore the experts who have never done much of them and resort to test book answers designed for pine and healthy hardwoods. That will get u hurt. First I clean the root flares, I do a face cut 10-15 percent of the tree diameter, I bore cut from the face taking out at least 2/3rds of the hinge and take out as much of the heart as I can from the front but don't break thru to the sides or back just yet. REASON is too much hinge promotes the barber chair. So less is better but absolutely need ENOUGH to direct the tree.. It's a balance only experience can give. I then bore cut from the side (sides if its a larger than 30 inch tree ) in the "game of logging" style leaving just enough hinge to direct the tree and a little hold wood in the back so the tree doesn't go just yet. Using this "game of logging approach allows you to carefully and thoughtfully bore cut and "size" the hinges before releasing the tree, a critical point as yet again too much hinge promotes the barber chain and too little is dangerous. On the large "dead" sometime add a wedge during that process so the tree doesn't "crush" and pinch your saw. Step back...evaluate, make damn sure u have a clear escape route away from where things might come tumbling down from the dead branches above. Once the escape plan is internalized, release the tree and escape...fast.
> 
> I'll post a couple of videos that kind of show what I've been doing and one in particular shows why
> 
> First Here were some I did last weekend that were barber chairs wanting to happen:



Really good job man. Your patience keeps you safe.


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## kenmbz

Fireman Bill said:


> Really good job man. Your patience keeps you safe.


I like the side cuts. I have been using similar face cuts and bore cuts with success. 
I am amazed how many of these Ash snap 20-40 feet up while falling.
I have 3 more Large Ash, think I may let nature take them down as too many large branches.

Thanks for sharing the videos, shows a lot of good techniques in action.


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## GrizG

The neighbor's ash trees are still falling onto my family's property... Note the shed in the background of the one photo... one of their trees smashed that. Their insurance covered it as we had given them written notice of the hazards via certified mail. A tornado and microburst hit out area recently and this is what I found today when I went to check that property. For scale, the maple is about 34-36" dbh. The ash that hit it ash broke off about 12' above the ground. Note all the big dead ash on the neighbor's property... they refuse to do anything about it so I'll keep submitting claims to their insurance company for the damages until they are canceled. As a bank VP and bank lawyer couple they don't give a rat's ash about anyone but themselves!


----------



## kenmbz

GrizG said:


> The neighbor's ash trees are still falling onto my family's property... Note the shed in the background of the one photo... one of their trees smashed that. Their insurance covered it as we had given them written notice of the hazards via certified mail. A tornado and microburst hit out area recently and this is what I found today when I went to check that property. For scale, the maple is about 34-36" dbh. The ash that hit it ash broke off about 12' above the ground. Note all the big dead ash on the neighbor's property... they refuse to do anything about it so I'll keep submitting claims to their insurance company for the damages until they are canceled. As a bank VP and bank lawyer couple they don't give a rat's ash about anyone but themselves!
> 
> View attachment 1003521
> View attachment 1003522
> View attachment 1003524


This is pretty sad, earlier this year I took down 12 large Ash on my border as I did not want to impact my neighbors.
That they don't care is bad enough, but knowing their tress could hurt/damage you or your property is nuts for them not to just pay someone if they can't do the removal themselves.


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## GrizG

kenmbz said:


> This is pretty sad, earlier this year I took down 12 large Ash on my border as I did not want to impact my neighbors.
> That they don't care is bad enough, but knowing their tress could hurt/damage you or your property is nuts for them not to just pay someone if they can't do the removal themselves.


I took down about 50 ash on our property and our two neighbors next door probably took down as many. It's the "behind us" neighbor who is a problem. They've been a problem with projects in our area too demanding illegal quid pro quo arrangements that took years and millions of dollars in additional expenses to squash in court. Some people just s... I know a lot of people who pulled all their accounts out of that bank.


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## newforest

I live where EAB has been around for a long time as the origin point is less than 200 miles away. 

A couple years ago now I had to work on a long dead Ash that was imminently possibly going to damage a shop building I was renting; my elderly landlord no longer had the initiative to do anything about it. 

2 friends of mine, one a hand-cut logger for veneer grade material and the other a 2 decades experienced climber/arborist, neither of whom are afraid of some pretty hairy cuts high off the ground, refused to touch the tree without starting with a lift to take it apart from the top down. All 3 of us agree that the best solution with dead Ash is to a) leave them be if at all possible and let Nature do the job, or b) maybe carefully knock another tree into them to hopefully break all the unseen weak points and get it off true vertical as much as possible. Dang trees always tend to grow real straight.

Before we could get ground conditions (snow) and a lift and the free time organized, my landlord died and I could no longer rent the building anyway. The heirs decided to bring in Joe Bob’s Tree Service with a strong rope and a pick-up truck. It worked fine and Joe Bob went on to pull over more Ash trees elsewhere I guess. But none of the 3 of us would have volunteered for any amount of money to make that particular severing cut with all those random chance branches over our heads.


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## sand sock

your open face cut , was to shallow. i think they say it needs to be 25% now. it used to be 1/3. there is trees where you would even go just short of 50%. they want you to use wedges and stop lean backs. i get it and its a good practice and tool in your toolbox. 

i think the problem was your relief cut was about a half inch to high. when it started to all, it ripped vertical. becasue you werent chasing the cut. as fast as it should of been. if the open face closes. you can barber chairs all day long. so many things could of happened


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## weimedog

My last big dead leaner ash tree job..


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## woodfarmer

If the OP is still experiencing barber chairs I hope he quit!


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## Lightning Performance

GrizG said:


> The neighbor's ash trees are still falling onto my family's property... Note the shed in the background of the one photo... one of their trees smashed that. Their insurance covered it as we had given them written notice of the hazards via certified mail. A tornado and microburst hit out area recently and this is what I found today when I went to check that property. For scale, the maple is about 34-36" dbh. The ash that hit it ash broke off about 12' above the ground. Note all the big dead ash on the neighbor's property... they refuse to do anything about it so I'll keep submitting claims to their insurance company for the damages until they are canceled. As a bank VP and bank lawyer couple they don't give a rat's ash about anyone but themselves!
> 
> View attachment 1003521
> View attachment 1003522
> View attachment 1003524


Have only read the first and last page here but will get back to reading the rest sometime soon.
Being in central NY last month was stunning to see dead and dying ash everywhere. You guys and gals up their definitely have got your work cut out on those hedge row leaners and broken tops still hung up there!

Did a bunch of dead or dying ash trees this past two years mostly in the spring but will be back at them soon enough. The ones on a farm sight semi cleared area were the worst. Several were so far gone they got pulled over with only a very tiny face notch of maybe 20% because they had no wood on the back cut side. If they were not where they were it was mostly lift work imho. Ain't no climbing these unless you have a death wish. Anything I had in front of me was intertwined and a mostly full dead canopies on ninety foot plus rotten and dry ash or hard maple. Had to line up a five tree drop because everything had to go in one pop, fun stuff to me and interesting. So a few big ones over 2.5ft wide almost chaired, one did, and no doubt they all would have being leaners and dead dry but I bore cut them from the face after my notch was in on all but one that I forgot to knock the guts out of first. Got the pics from that mess that went right instead of wrong. The ones leaning back being pulled over by rope were actually safer to get a rope loaded down to avoid the chair and things going off backwards. Some were leaning back into fences and need to go out into the open pasture grass. I'm sure this thread has plenty of vile dead standing leaners in it. Maybe I'll add few mistakes, or considered mistakes I made, to sweeten the deal here. Being a one man band 99% of the time makes for some interesting rigging bet on that. Rope, cable, lugalls, wedges, chokers, blocks, bore cuts and more is always in my self taught arsenal of how not to get injured or dead. Still liking this above ground thing or not being ash for as long as possible


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## GrizG

weimedog said:


> My last big dead leaner ash tree job..



The last time I saw an ash in that condition was 5+ years ago... it still had a bit of life in it! The standing ash around me now are too dangerous to cut. All the small branches have fallen off and the big ones and tops are still falling. The last one I cleaned up, a few months ago, broke off about 12-15' off the ground. It was 20+ inches in diameter at that height. There were actually 2 ash that fell that time from the neighbor's property onto my parents' property. The neighbor refuses to do anything about them... a couple years ago one smashed the shed and our insurance collected full damages from the neighbor as they'd been advised via certified letter that there were hazard trees. You can see dead and leaning ash in the background... all are in the 80-90 foot tall range. The neighbor is a lawyer (his wife is a bank VP) so I didn't simply go over and drop the trees as those people are constantly in legal battles. I return their trees to their property after I buck them... too far gone for firewood!


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## weimedog

I'm fortunate as I still have a 10-12 acre stand of bug free Ash. My forester keeps telling me to drop them NOW. I've been mixing them in with other trees. I got as much as $900 a thousand for the better tree's in the last lot. Other tree's where a lot less. Good Cherry down in the 650-700 range.

Where I was cutting down in Kentucky was as you described. Really too dangerous for the sane types. Too far gone for good firewood. Some where breaking mid tree and folding back. I'm an old fart. That gets my attention. I did video some of the "better" tree's as posting some of the crumbles isn't a good way to present anything but being stupid.


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## anynameyouwish

kdjacob2000 said:


> As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.
> 
> The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.
> 
> Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.
> 
> Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.
> 
> Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.
> 
> Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.


Some thoughts on your pictures from someone who took the GOL levels 1-4 and has been doing this stuff for a year and half. I'm definitely not an expert but here goes..

- As others have said, your face notch seems a bit too shallow. Assuming a perfect circle, 80% of DBH translates to going 1/5th of the way in. For irregular trees, I tend to do 80% DBH OR 1/5th of the way in whichever is greater. No harm in going a bit further in than you need, especially because it changes the center of gravity (better for felling).

- I generally discount the bark in the calculations, and make sure that "1/5th of the way in" means 1/5th in from all parts of the front. In your 4th picture, if you move the tape to the right where there's a "dip" and leave out the bark, you're at around 2 inches, which is definitely less than 1/5th.

- For a 17" tree, 1/5th of the way in comes to 3.4 inches. So, putting this together with the previous point, your notch was IMO short around 1.4 inches.

- On discounting the bark: I pay special attention to this when deciding how much holding strap to leave. If you leave an inch and the bark is half inch deep you've effectively left only a half inch.

Again, not an expert; I've learned quite a lot from this thread!


----------



## GrizG

anynameyouwish said:


> Some thoughts on your pictures from someone who took the GOL levels 1-4 and has been doing this stuff for a year and half. I'm definitely not an expert but here goes..
> 
> - As others have said, your face notch seems a bit too shallow. Assuming a perfect circle, 80% of DBH translates to going 1/5th of the way in. For irregular trees, I tend to do 80% DBH OR 1/5th of the way in whichever is greater. No harm in going a bit further in than you need, especially because it changes the center of gravity (better for felling).
> 
> - I generally discount the bark in the calculations, and make sure that "1/5th of the way in" means 1/5th in from all parts of the front. In your 4th picture, if you move the tape to the right where there's a "dip" and leave out the bark, you're at around 2 inches, which is definitely less than 1/5th.
> 
> - For a 17" tree, 1/5th of the way in comes to 3.4 inches. So, putting this together with the previous point, your notch was IMO short around 1.4 inches.
> 
> - On discounting the bark: I pay special attention to this when deciding how much holding strap to leave. If you leave an inch and the bark is half inch deep you've effectively left only a half inch.
> 
> Again, not an expert; I've learned quite a lot from this thread!


I suspect that that the root of the problem with that stump was the face cut was done at about 20° instead of 30°. Not sure where the 20° came from... cutting mistake, misunderstanding of the process?? At about 30° and 80% the other issues wouldn't have been issues. Not that GOL is a perfect solution. I've had hinges break right off on dead trees and they didn't fall where gunned. It happens!


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## GrizG

weimedog said:


> I'm fortunate as I still have a 10-12 acre stand of bug free Ash. My forester keeps telling me to drop them NOW. I've been mixing them in with other trees. I got as much as $900 a thousand for the better tree's in the last lot. Other tree's where a lot less. Good Cherry down in the 650-700 range.
> 
> Where I was cutting down in Kentucky was as you described. Really too dangerous for the sane types. Too far gone for good firewood. Some where breaking mid tree and folding back. I'm an old fart. That gets my attention. I did video some of the "better" tree's as posting some of the crumbles isn't a good way to present anything but being stupid.


I'm surprised you haven't had problems yet... I saw a video you did at the saw shop in Shokan. I live east of there and I don't think there is anything alive but the occasional stump growth! Thus far I haven't seen new saplings around me... I"m hoping EHD killing a lot of the deer helps the situation as they had decimated the woods.


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## anynameyouwish

GrizG said:


> I suspect that that the root of the problem with that stump was the face cut was done at about 20° instead of 30°. Not sure where the 20° came from... cutting mistake, misunderstanding of the process?? At about 30° and 80% the other issues wouldn't have been issues. Not that GOL is a perfect solution. I've had hinges break right off on dead trees and they didn't fall where gunned. It happens!


The GOL method says to cut the notch at 70-90 degrees. OP posted pictures on p. 5 of this thread where they said the notch was at around 70 degrees (or 20 degrees, depending on how you measure it). So at least as far as GOL goes they did it right. But as you say, it can happen no matter what you do. I'm going to avoid dead Ash from now on..


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## GrizG

anynameyouwish said:


> The GOL method says to cut the notch at 70-90 degrees. OP posted pictures on p. 5 of this thread where they said the notch was at around 70 degrees (or 20 degrees, depending on how you measure it). So at least as far as GOL goes they did it right. But as you say, it can happen no matter what you do. I'm going to avoid dead Ash from now on..


Geez... my allergies are bad this morning and clearly messing with me! I looked at the drawing in the earlier post through runny blurry eyes and saw 18° and screwed it up from there! LOL Thanks for catching that... good thing I'm not trying to fell trees today! Rather I'm going to stick to raking up chestnut burrs and if the allergy meds work I'll mow the lawn today.


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## anynameyouwish

GrizG said:


> Geez... my allergies are bad this morning and clearly messing with me! I looked at the drawing in the earlier post through runny blurry eyes and saw 18° and screwed it up from there! LOL Thanks for catching that... good thing I'm not trying to fell trees today! Rather I'm going to stick to raking up chestnut burrs and if the allergy meds work I'll mow the lawn today.


LOL have fun!


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## rwoods

Nothing to be learned here about falling but thought some may enjoy seeing a couple of pictures of some ash I cut several months ago and am just now getting around to hauling to the wood lot. 

Saturday, I pulled this log off a bank. It was too heavy for my wheel tractor to skid but just right for the little crawler.



Previous Saturday - ready to be strapped - first of several loads to head down the hill to the woodlot. Average round trip took close to 3 hours though only 15 miles or so.



Be safe,

Ron


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## camel2019

So have we decided what is the best plan of attack on these trees yet. I’m going to be talking a few dead ash on a open field edge for a buddy of mine sooner then later most are small. theirs 1 largish tree that has some lean to it and moves quite a bit in the wind. This will all be cut bucked and hand split so he can heat his house for the winter he broke his ankle and about the only assistance he can give me is from the truck.


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## GrizG

camel2019 said:


> So have we decided what is the best plan of attack on these trees yet. I’m going to be talking a few dead ash on a open field edge for a buddy of mine sooner then later most are small. theirs 1 largish tree that has some lean to it and moves quite a bit in the wind. This will all be cut bucked and hand split so he can heat his house for the winter he broke his ankle and about the only assistance he can give me is from the truck.


The short answer is, it depends. Every tree needs to be evaluated for hazards, lean, an escape route and then a cutting plan developed based on the analysis.


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## camel2019

GrizG said:


> The short answer is, it depends. Every tree needs to be evaluated for hazards, lean, an escape route and then a cutting plan developed based on the analysis.


The big one could be left standing for all I care the smaller ones shouldn’t be too hard to throw a line into to help them over in the direction I want. My buddy burns mainly ash but this year had to buy some oak these trees will be added to the pile if they are dry enough. I still wished he had a splitter as theirs a few full cord of wood sitting there and that’s at least 4 days of me swinging a maul. And if I find one solid enough I’m grabbing a section for axe handles  one can only dream.


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## GrizG

camel2019 said:


> The big one could be left standing for all I care the smaller ones shouldn’t be too hard to throw a line into to help them over in the direction I want. My buddy burns mainly ash but this year had to buy some oak these trees will be added to the pile if they are dry enough. I still wished he had a splitter as theirs a few full cord of wood sitting there and that’s at least 4 days of me swinging a maul.


You have to be careful with roping dead ash as if they've been dead for a while it is not uncommon for the tops to break off or for the tree to break off mid-trunk. 

If they are on the edge of a field they might have a natural tendency to fall towards the field. This as trunk lean and/or limb arrangement tends to place the center of mass towards the field. If it isn't obvious you could use a plumb bob from different perspectives to determine which way the center of mass is oriented to confirm this tendency. 

Use an open face cut (≈70°) so that the hinge doesn't break off until the tree is almost on the ground... Long dead ash hinges will break right off on a narrow face cut...


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## kenmbz

I only use plunge cuts on the dead ash. Tricky trees now they are so dead, but stubborn and still have someone standing in the woods.


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## rwoods

Best plan of attack - treat every dead ash as if it wants to kill you. Never stand under an overhanging limb - never ever - no matter how sound the tree appears to be nor how fast you are on your feet nor your use of a spotter. Never consider your cutting method - bore/plunge, Coos Bay, line in the tree, etc. as a failsafe. Never rely on your judgment of soundness.

In the past I have previously posted pictures of stems breaking off overhead during a cut, unexpected barber chair, exploding tops, etc. Just a week ago Saturday, I cut several hazard trees for the county firing range. Three were dead ash. All three of them did unexpected things. The first was between 2 to 2 1/2' with a lot of missing bark overhead. I chose to bore cut it. Before I could complete the creation of the trigger, it busted free at the stump. Yet it was so sound that it took out a 10 to 12" live tree and landed on two points of a ravine without busting. The second was of similar size but had all of its bark. It exploded upon impact. The third was a smaller tree about 15" at the cut. It appeared sound but was leaning on a live tree. I attempted to use the lean to fall it to the side, hoping that it would just slither down the live tree. It didn't cooperate even with wedging and a thin hinge. Instead of removing the hazard, I had increased the hazard. As I was leaving to retrieve a cable to pull it over, one of the range officers came by to check on me. I pointed out to him the compromised tree and told him to make sure no one came near it. As he was expressing his appreciation for the removal of the hazard trees, a strong wind began to gust and swirl. Within seconds, a 6' section of the top fell right where I had been standing during the cut and the wedging. Though only arm size in diameter, it would have broken my back if I had been at the tree. A few seconds later the stem broke off from the stump *and* about 10' above my cut, with that section falling almost perpendicular to my intended fall, i.e., directly opposite of the lean as the stem simply jack-knifed. The remaining stem swung in an arc about 15' from the stump as it slid down the live tree ramming its end into the ground, which required me to mechanically pull it the rest of the way down.

If you can afford to leave a dead ash to nature, leave it. 

Ron


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## rwoods

Below is another example of the unpredictability of dead ash. I cut this hazard tree at the range today. It had a slight lean. Note there is no back cut. I just started the bore to set a hinge. Bore was only about 6" deep when the tree cracked and I fled. 




The incomplete bore.



The cleared area will soon be open to the public, which is why this tree was not left for nature to handle.



Be safe.

Ron


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## CDElliott

rwoods said:


> Below is another example of the unpredictability of dead ash. I cut this hazard tree at the range today. It had a slight lean. Note there is no back cut. I just started the bore to set a hinge. Bore was only about 6" deep when the tree cracked and I fled.
> 
> View attachment 1028671
> 
> 
> The incomplete bore.
> View attachment 1028672
> 
> 
> The cleared area will soon be open to the public, which is why this tree was not left for nature to handle.
> View attachment 1028673
> 
> 
> Be safe.
> 
> Ron


Out of curiosity, I wonder how long this tree has been dead.


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## rwoods

Too long. Sorry, I have no idea. 

Ron


----------



## pdqdl

kdjacob2000 said:


> Attacking Game of Logging, Sweden, and weekend logging classes is a real turn off. If this is a forum only for tree professionals from famous logging states (I love Washington) I've clearly come to the wrong place.



You may come to learn that the Game of Logging isn't the only game in town when it comes to getting trees to the ground safely, expediently, or economically. As others have pointed out, it is a system of rules that seem to revolve more around "do it this way" rather than "this is why we do it this way". 

That is just my impression, of course, as I have never taken such a course, and don't think I would get along too well with the instructors. Also, if you aren't logging, then you shouldn't presume that what works well in one industry is how you should be dropping your trees.

I've never really had a tree barber chair on me, and I've been cutting 'em down professionally since about 1987. There is a LOT I didn't know back then, but I have been learning consistently since then. Most of the loggers would be horrified by my methods, as I don't care about saving any lumber, and I seldom wedge a tree over. I set ropes, and pull them. Urban arboriculture is considerably different than logging.


----------



## pdqdl

uniballer said:


> I have learned over the years that sometimes a shallow face cut to 80% of diameter is not really enough (especially if the tree is not round). Of course, too deep a face causes other problems.



Barber chair pretty much never happens when the face cut is sufficiently deep. As an arborist climber, I learned kinda early that top cutting a branch without an undercut can cause some really wild barber-chairs. Fundamentally, every horizontal branch is a potential barber chair, but we needn't go through all the nonsense that the fellers do on a stump cut. Deep face cut, then top cut. It never "barbers". And that is on a horizontal branch: 100% lean, so to speak.

Down on the ground, however, it is considerably different. Gravity isn't assured to carry all the wood away from the climber, so barber chair is a greater risk to the guy standing where the wood will be falling. The physics as to how the wood splits on a barber chair, however, is about the same.

Ever ask yourself why GOL and others insist on having a shallow face cut and a very wide opening? It is because they rely on using wedges to incline the fall, and it is mostly based on logging for tall, thin conifers. That system doesn't apply the same for deciduous trees that may be as wide as they are tall, and the methods used need to accommodate the tree in question. If the tree in question is a heavily leaning dead ash: cut it with a deep face cut of normal proportions, but make sure you stop before pinching your bar. Make damn sure you are felling with the lean, too! There cannot be any wind opposing the fall. Once you have that deep face cut, just back cut the tree without any expectation of needing wedges to send it over.

Obviously, this method flies in the face of what GOL (and others) will tell you, but what counts is that you are just letting gravity do all the work. If you use a wedge-dependent technique to fell a tree that is already going in the direction of gravity, then you might very well get a barber chair, because your face cut is too shallow.

Now if your judgement is wrong, the tree begins to set back, and your face cut is too deep and you don't have a rope attached... You have a looming disaster, and no wedge can save it.

If you are attempting to fell a leaner sideways to the lean, then that is a completely different situation, and requires a different felling technique.


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## kenmbz

Dead EAB Ash is almost guaranteed to barber chair. It's the way they die with the borers moving around and girdling the trees in different sections. 

Only way I could get them not to BC was plunge cuts.

But even then, as you see from rwoods, they do what they want.
We have had them fall and twist 10-20' feet above the cut on the way down as they disintegrate.

I am leaving the rest in the woods to fall by themselves or will rope em down and be far away.


----------



## Oletrapper

kdjacob2000 said:


> I really appreciate the technical advice. That's what I came looking for.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of how a shallow face cut translates to "giving the tree that much more time to stall". I do understand how a shallow face cut translates to more force required if I'm using wedges at the back (tree straight or back leaner).
> 
> Attacking Game of Logging, Sweden, and weekend logging classes is a real turn off. If this is a forum only for tree professionals from famous logging states (I love Washington) I've clearly come to the wrong place.


KD, You came to the right place. These forums for the most part are not intended to be politically correct, woke, or a place to come to get the answer YOU want to hear. Pointed, direct, for the most part correct responses are what I have received. I'm certain there was nothing personal intended by Northmans comments. Have a good day.  OT


----------



## Oletrapper

northmanlogging said:


> First off, SSD GOL (Swedish Stump Dance/Goon of Logging) has its place, but its a narrow sighted ridged set of rules for falling timber, while some of it makes sense, other parts of it will get you in trouble, trees fight back and don't care about what ever rules you learned in your weekend logger course. After all the trees don't read Swedish or English, and are belligerent and vengeful assholes, bent on the destruction of all of mans works.
> 
> From what I understand Ash is just a PITA chair prone tree no matter what you do, dead and dry? does its split easier green or seasoned? the equivalent we have out here is Alder, which is most dangerous when green and the sap is running, it hardens up a lot when dead standing, though it can still kill you.
> 
> As for critiquing your stumps, face cut to shallow i.e. not deep enough which on a leaner means you have to blast through that much more wood before it tips giving the tree that much more time to stall, and then chair, granted you don't want to go as deep as a straight tree, but considerably more then ya did, then consider boring and leaving a safety strap, (as GOL teaches to do on every ****ing tree) or better, bore the guts of the hold wood, leaving wood on each side, though on this one, if you had cut a little deeper you would of been well into the rotten core, and not needed to...
> 
> Now, as for leaving safety straps, I rarely do so, but will if its super sketchy, the benefit is it gives you a head start on vacating the area, however, your other cuts have to be correct or it can still chair, or worse you over cut the hold wood and the tree crushes it and pinches your saw (this realllllllllyyyyyyy sucks btw) which is bad in all sorts of ways, not just pinching the bar but it also compromises the integrity of the hold wood....
> 
> Anyway, next time take a little more on the face... it will solve most of the issues.


Good morning Northwood, Can you critique this cut? What did they do wrong?
lol Notice any brown spots in the snow?


----------



## northmanlogging

Oletrapper said:


> Good morning Northwood, Can you critique this cut? What did they do wrong?View attachment 1035447
> lol Notice any brown spots in the snow?


too narrow of a face cut, tree stalled, they tried forcing it... kapow Trees Fight back, and they fight dirty.


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## pdqdl

Oletrapper said:


> Good morning Northwood, Can you critique this cut? What did they do wrong?View attachment 1035447
> lol Notice any brown spots in the snow?



We did almost a whole thread on that picture, long time ago. It was widely speculated to be a fake picture (by me, among others) on account of the lack of tracks in the snow from the tractor and the bizarre angle at which it is hanging. As I recall, I tracked that photo down to a tractor forum as the source for that picture. It was posted along with several other views of the tractor that made it seem authentic, but the backgrounds didn't match too well. There was no source story explaining the pictures, either.

I can critique the cut: tractors should be removed from the area prior to starting the chainsaw. Especially if you don't know what you are doing. There is a very special cut to be used with felling head leaners by pushing them over with a tractor, and even then it is a bad idea.


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## alanbaker

Oletrapper said:


> KD, You came to the right place. These forums for the most part are not intended to be politically correct, woke, or a place to come to get the answer YOU want to hear. Pointed, direct, for the most part correct responses are what I have received. I'm certain there was nothing personal intended by Northmans comments. Have a good day.  OT


It appears every tree is treated as an individual. After taking the four levels of the GOL, I can now look back at all dumb things I did with a chainsaw and some how come through with out a scratch. I am now much aware of potential hazards and that makes me safer. That nearly a half century of using a chainsaw, I learned a few things to that you can get from any class or one mentor. It has been said many times in this forum that to become proficient, whether it's sharpening a chain or cutting a tree, practice and experience are great teachers. I have yet to be given bad advice on Arborsite.
That said, 90% of what I cut for firewood is dead ash and after over two decades in these woods I have yet to have an ash barber chair, maybe luck, maybe experience, maybe the GOL . . .


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## pdqdl

alanbaker said:


> I have yet to be given bad advice on Arborsite.



Well... You haven't been reading all the posts. We are constantly watchful for bad advice around here.


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## alanbaker

pdqdl said:


> Well... You haven't been reading all the posts. We are constantly watchful for bad advice around here.


I am referring to questions I have asked. I do not have time to read every post. Glad misinformation is flagged


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## Brufab

CDElliott said:


> Out of curiosity, I wonder how long this tree has been dead.


I have quite a few on my property that have been dead 15+ years. Once I see woodpeckers in them there usually past the point for firewood. 9 out of 10 trees that fell it was whatever it is called when the roots rot out and there's just that stub and trees down. I see some of the ash trees that have been dead and barkless are now sprouting suckers from the 1st foot of tree above the ground.


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## GrizG

Brufab said:


> I have quite a few on my property that have been dead 15+ years. Once I see woodpeckers in them there usually past the point for firewood. 9 out of 10 trees that fell it was whatever it is called when the roots rot out and there's just that stub and trees down. I see some of the ash trees that have been dead and barkless are now sprouting suckers from the 1st foot of tree above the ground.


I've seen some stump growth also... I try to leave that new growth when I take down the hazard trees... That is probably a futile hope that the "tree," really the stump, will survive and a tree will regrow from the stump. When I looked into this I found out that the new growth are water sprouts (from Epicormic buds). They are the trees attempt to increase the amount of photosynthesis in it's attempt to survive the stress caused by the EAB. I'm curious to see if any of those stumps are still alive in 2-3+ years.


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## Brufab

GrizG said:


> I've seen some stump growth also... I try to leave that new growth when I take down the hazard trees... That is probably a futile hope that the "tree," really the stump, will survive and a tree will regrow from the stump. When I looked into this I found out that the new growth are water sprouts (from Epicormic buds). They are the trees attempt to increase the amount of photosynthesis in it's attempt to survive the stress caused by the EAB. I'm curious to see if any of those stumps are still alive in 2-3+ years.


Good point and great knowledge griz, I will look next time I go. Some of the shoots I believe are greater than 1". That sounds promising but every ash tree that died the stump is basically compost now, will the water sprouts lead to any type of new root growth? All our trees are in poor draining wet clay soil. But I am seeing new ash regrowth in the 1/2" to 2-3" trunk size.


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## pdqdl

I "raise" new landscape trees all the time. A poorly planted tree gets sunscalded, half the bark dies, and the tree is scarred for life. It begins to grow "water sprouts", but the main trunk continues to die off.

I cut off the trunk and leave the best, strongest sprout to become a new tree. With careful pruning, it may grow faster than a newly transplanted sapling. In the case of an ash tree, my understanding is that EAB doesn't afflict saplings too much. There isn't much cambium to tunnel in, the bark doesn't offer much protection, and the shoots are more vigorously growing, so the larvae are a bit more likely to be drowned by the host tree. This is the case, I believe, with pretty much all borers.


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## Brufab

pdqdl said:


> I "raise" new landscape trees all the time. A poorly planted tree gets sunscalded, half the bark dies, and the tree is scarred for life. It begins to grow "water sprouts", but the main trunk continues to die off.
> 
> I cut off the trunk and leave the best, strongest sprout to become a new tree. With careful pruning, it may grow faster than a newly transplanted sapling. In the case of an ash tree, my understanding is that EAB doesn't afflict saplings too much. There isn't much cambium to tunnel in, the bark doesn't offer much protection, and the shoots are more vigorously growing, so the larvae are a bit more likely to be drowned by the host tree. This is the case, I believe, with pretty much all borers.


Here's one from our property that was dying and we cut it maybe last year. Curious to see how it does


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## pdqdl

Cut it back to the single best survivor late next spring.


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