# Workman's Comp Bull ####



## alpineman (Dec 9, 2010)

Do you guys have workman's comp and do you hate it like I do? Ever since I started paying for workman's comp, every ground man with any little ache and pain is always going to the doctor and racking up bills. I don't even know if it is worth it any more to have!! Anyone feel my pain....


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 9, 2010)

What are your rates. Here is about 50%. 
Jeff


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 9, 2010)

Nope...if I need extra help, I get temp grunts and all the bws is SEP. In addition, if they piss me off, I call and bring in the next guy. Works perfect. 

I wouldn't mind carrying it for the right crew, cause they would feel the same way I do about it....and it would be there for them when it is absolutely needed, and not abused.


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> What are your rates. Here is about 50%.
> Jeff



By 50% do you mean if a guy on your crew earns $100, you pay $50 in WC premium? Oh F--k That.

In MA I pay 14.5% on every $100


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 9, 2010)

ducaticorse said:


> By 50% do you mean if a guy on your crew earns $100, you pay $50 in WC premium? Oh F--k That.
> 
> In MA I pay 14.5% on every $100



You are correct. If a job has about say, 150 trees under 14' for structure prune, then it goes under landscape which is 14%. 
Jeff


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You are correct. If a job has about say, 150 trees under 14' for structure prune, then it goes under landscape which is 14%.
> Jeff



So in effect, tree work in CA goes for about 40% higher than it does around here. If you could scale your op down to 3 full time guys on books, a chip truck, log truck, chipper and a 60ft bucket truck all paid for, what would you charge for a 10 hour day out there?


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## trimmmed (Dec 9, 2010)

alpineman said:


> Do you guys have workman's comp and do you hate it like I do? Ever since I started paying for workman's comp, every ground man with any little ache and pain is always going to the doctor and racking up bills. I don't even know if it is worth it any more to have!! Anyone feel my pain....



This sounds like bs actually. Workman's comp is for work related injuries. If your guys are getting hurt on your job, then they are rightfully making claims for the doctor bills. Workmans comp won't pay for frivolous aches and pains. I actually doubt you even have a policy based on your post.


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

trimmmed said:


> This sounds like bs actually. Workman's comp is for work related injuries. If your guys are getting hurt on your job, then they are rightfully making claims for the doctor bills. Workmans comp won't pay for frivolous aches and pains. I actually doubt you even have a policy based on your post.



Oh snap!


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

trimmmed said:


> This sounds like bs actually. Workman's comp is for work related injuries. If your guys are getting hurt on your job, then they are rightfully making claims for the doctor bills. Workmans comp won't pay for frivolous aches and pains. I actually doubt you even have a policy based on your post.



Not to mention if he's bouncing numerous claims off of his policy on a regular basis, the policy would become financially unmanagable.


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## alpineman (Dec 9, 2010)

trimmmed said:


> This sounds like bs actually. Workman's comp is for work related injuries. If your guys are getting hurt on your job, then they are rightfully making claims for the doctor bills. Workmans comp won't pay for frivolous aches and pains. I actually doubt you even have a policy based on your post.



Well then you would be wrong....do you have one!!?? Costs me just over $700 a month, and thats just to cover 2 ground guys. Frivolous is a very subjective word. I grew up working and sucking it up if you had a minor injury.....NOT THESE DAYS! Is it legal for me to threaten to fire them if they make a stupid claim? Obviously not, but I can make their life miserable until they quite!!!


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

alpineman said:


> Well then you would be wrong....do you have one!!?? Costs me just over $700 a month, and thats just to cover 2 ground guys. Frivolous is a very subjective word. I grew up working and sucking it up if you had a minor injury.....NOT THESE DAYS! Is it legal for me to threaten to fire them if they make a stupid claim? Obviously not, but I can make their life miserable until they quite!!!



Don't take it too seriously. But you're right. Too many ways to take advantage of the situation, and you can't just fire without good cause, otherwise unemployment kicks in. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.


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## capecodtree (Dec 9, 2010)

*wc*

i got audited this year and between wc and liability i had to pay out 30k. no merry christmas here. i pay 17/100 for wc, how do get away with 14? help!
we have had no claims, ever. i preach safety before anything else. my son is the safety officer (instructor) a newly formed position for us, we are trying to conform with safety training and a safety plan (tailgate meetings). How are you dealing with the new mass dot regs? i've got my dot number but am having trouble understanding what else is required of us. i do know that in mass any truck over 10,000 gvw needs a dot # and drivers must have med card. truck daily inspection and trip record? what do you do? trying to play by the rules. thanks, jim


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 9, 2010)

ducaticorse said:


> So in effect, tree work in CA goes for about 40% higher than it does around here. If you could scale your op down to 3 full time guys on books, a chip truck, log truck, chipper and a 60ft bucket truck all paid for, what would you charge for a 10 hour day out there?



Well, I run three crews, 4 guys per crew or a big job maybe 2 crews of 6 guys or 1 crew of 12 guys. We have all the equiptment and are TCIA Accredited and our day is 8 hours from the yard and back. I am ok with $5000 a day or $60 bucks a man hour in this economy. BTW, we don't do residential.
Jeff 
www.urbantreecare.com


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

capecodtree said:


> i got audited this year and between wc and liability i had to pay out 30k. no merry christmas here. i pay 17/100 for wc, how do get away with 14? help!
> we have had no claims, ever. i preach safety before anything else. my son is the safety officer (instructor) a newly formed position for us, we are trying to conform with safety training and a safety plan (tailgate meetings). How are you dealing with the new mass dot regs? i've got my dot number but am having trouble understanding what else is required of us. i do know that in mass any truck over 10,000 gvw needs a dot # and drivers must have med card. truck daily inspection and trip record? what do you do? trying to play by the rules. thanks, jim



I'm suprised you even get hassled by truck team down there. Around Boston, they nail everyone. As far as getting by them, looks are everything. Clean equipment, with halfway sane looking employees. You DON'T need DOT letters for in state commerce. Drivers DO need avalid med card. All vehicles require first aid, chalks, fire extinquisher, road flares/triangles. 

As far as your WC is concerned, it sounds like you are still in the assigned risk pool. (highest rates are usually found there) If you have no safety violations, or claims on your ploicy, then your WC should be lower if you filled out the forms right. 

Audits suck, but they do happen. You did't hear it from me, but "cash" at end of week to offset some on book hours works wonders I heard. While at the same time making your op kosher regrding OSHA and DIA. As long as you can trust your people that is.


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## cjnspecial (Dec 9, 2010)

I've underwritten comp policies in all but 4 states and california is bar none, the most expensive state to write in. The insurance can easily cost the employer double what insurance costs in most other states and that is mainly due to the insane cost of claims. Claims cost more in CA because the liberal claims laws...such as there is no cap on attorneys fees where most states limit it to 25%-33% of the total award. There is a lot of abuse too but I digress. 
Your guys sound like they are using comp in place of having health insurance or just getting some paid time off and pain pills courtesy of you and your insurance company. I'd talk with your insurance company for ideas or if you are fed up, just get your workers through an insured temp labor company.

PM me if you have any questions.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 9, 2010)

ducaticorse said:


> You DON'T need DOT letters for in state commerce.



You do in California.
Jeff


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## ducaticorse (Dec 9, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You do in California.
> Jeff



Yeah, most states required them before every state was under the same fed regulation.


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## Shaun Bowler (Dec 9, 2010)

What most companies do to lower WC costs is keep records of time spent on work sites- tree worker hours
-groundworker hours
Ground workers are classified as landscape maintenance employees.
That will put you in an entirely different bracket.
It makes a big difference.


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## ATH (Dec 9, 2010)

cjnspecial said:


> I've underwritten comp policies in all but 4 states...



Let me guess: Ohio, Wyoming, North Dakota, Washington? Gotta love government monopolies


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## MillerTreeMN (Dec 9, 2010)

im glad you guys have this thread going. 

i will need to figure out a plan here. 

in MN, i think W/c is 30-40 % so 30-40 bucks per 100 bucks the employee makes. 

a guy i know pays his ground guys through a temp agency which charges $30 bucks per $100 he pays the ground guys. with that $30 bucks, the temp agency covers ALL The expenses and paperwork, w/c and taxes also i believe. 

this seems like the best route. 

another friend says his lawnmower guys cost him 4 or 7 bucks per 100. 

i should put "lawn care" in my business name !


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## STLfirewood (Dec 9, 2010)

We are lucky in Missouri. You don't have to have work comp unless you have over 5 employees. If you have family working for you you don't have to cover them at all. Family members do count towards your 5 employees but you don't have to cover them. When I did check into getting work comp it was going to be 27% I think.

Scott


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## cjnspecial (Dec 9, 2010)

Shaun Bowler said:


> What most companies do to lower WC costs is keep records of time spent on work sites- tree worker hours
> -groundworker hours
> Ground workers are classified as landscape maintenance employees.
> That will put you in an entirely different bracket.
> It makes a big difference.



If your insurance company is allowing that, they are screwing themselves because that is absolutely, positively not the case. If you assume that is the case and your insurance company finds out, get ready for a hefty audit bill. 

http://www.cattland.com/codes.pdf


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## cjnspecial (Dec 9, 2010)

ATH said:


> Let me guess: Ohio, Wyoming, North Dakota, Washington? Gotta love government monopolies



LOL, you got it!


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## trimmmed (Dec 10, 2010)

alpineman said:


> Well then you would be wrong....do you have one!!?? Costs me just over $700 a month, and thats just to cover 2 ground guys. Frivolous is a very subjective word. I grew up working and sucking it up if you had a minor injury.....NOT THESE DAYS! Is it legal for me to threaten to fire them if they make a stupid claim? Obviously not, but I can make their life miserable until they quite!!!



So? It costs you $700 per month even if they don't make a claim. 

And yep, I have been paying into Workmans Comp goin on 25 years now, with rates fluctuating from a high of 21% to a low of 13.8%. I have been audited EVERY SINGLE YEAR! Never made a claim, nor has anyone that worked for me. Had my last audit on Dec 2, 2010. Had my best audit when the auditor failed to show up for an audit in which I was way over, in fact I owed 30k additional. To cover his ass, he sent me an "estimated" premium for 3k. Which I paid almost instantly as I recall (whew). 

I got hit in the eye with a small concrete projectile once, bouned off the eyeball before I could even blink. Had to go to the doctor, and that prick insisted on making a claim at first and only relented when i explained to him like 39 times that, I was the owner and would pay him cash, ON THE SPOT. He finally accepted those terms but I didn't think he was going to. 

At any rate, you aren't doing anything special for your guys by having comp. If they are abusing it, get rid of them.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 10, 2010)

Shaun Bowler said:


> What most companies do to lower WC costs is keep records of time spent on work sites- tree worker hours
> -groundworker hours
> Ground workers are classified as landscape maintenance employees.
> That will put you in an entirely different bracket.
> It makes a big difference.



That's what we do. Only, you can't classify groundies under landscape if they are on a tree job, only if the trees are under 14'. 
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 10, 2010)

Insurance in any form is a hard pill to swallow, ya hate when you dont need it and love it when you do!


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## KD57 (Dec 10, 2010)

I hate WC, but have to have it in order to get on a jobsite, even tho it is voluntary in TX. I have no problem paying on an employee that actually gets hurt on the job, but it seems to me there is a lot of fraud going on with the system. Too hard to prove. 
Have a guy hurt his back lifting an engine out of his car Sat. afternoon, he comes to work Mon morn, works a few hours, then yells out he hurt his back, files a claim, and the employer is stuck with it. Liberal laws more or less favors the employee here. Insurance companies would rather pay than fight it, or even investigate it.


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2010)

trimmmed said:


> This sounds like bs actually. Workman's comp is for work related injuries. If your guys are getting hurt on your job, then they are rightfully making claims for the doctor bills. Workmans comp won't pay for frivolous aches and pains. I actually doubt you even have a policy based on your post.



Could be but life is like a limbo game is many aspects so don't be surprised. But this is some funny #### though.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2010)

I have often thought about seeking help from one of those temp agencies but was fearful of what I would get. I guess my expectations are high but I also realize these guys may have no interest at all in actually helping but rather riding the temp agency clock and so forth.
I have worked with companies who have used them and it was sometimes less than pitiful and i don't want to have to weed through a mob of Mexicans. Hey, those guys are clear to work, The Government took them in didn't they? Its been done, there ya go.
If I could find decent help from a temp agency for 150 I would try it, maybe I will look.


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## alanarbor (Dec 10, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I have often thought about seeking help from one of those temp agencies but was fearful of what I would get. I guess my expectations are high but I also realize these guys may have no interest at all in actually helping but rather riding the temp agency clock and so forth.
> I have worked with companies who have used them and it was sometimes less than pitiful and i don't want to have to weed through a mob of Mexicans. Hey, those guys are clear to work, The Government took them in didn't they? Its been done, there ya go.
> If I could find decent help from a temp agency for 150 I would try it, maybe I will look.



You won't find decent help from a temp labor co. You'll get warm bodies. That's it.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 10, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I don't want to have to weed through a mob of Mexicans.



Are you a racist?
Jeff


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## ducaticorse (Dec 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Are you a racist?
> Jeff



That's not a racist comment by any fashion. It's simply what you get when you pull up to any given Home Depot, Lowes, Dunkin Donuts these days. Although around here, you get a decent portion of Guatemalan and Brazillians too. 

If one was to describe the litteral mob of lets say "foriegn undocumented workers" that swarms my trucks every AM when we stop for coffee, said mob would best be described as latino in ethnicity. 

If you actually want to see them hanging off of my trucks in the am, I'll have one of them hold tomorrows paper, and I'll take a pic for you.


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## MillerTreeMN (Dec 10, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I have often thought about seeking help from one of those temp agencies but was fearful of what I would get. I guess my expectations are high but I also realize these guys may have no interest at all in actually helping but rather riding the temp agency clock and so forth.
> I have worked with companies who have used them and it was sometimes less than pitiful and i don't want to have to weed through a mob of Mexicans. Hey, those guys are clear to work, The Government took them in didn't they? Its been done, there ya go.
> If I could find decent help from a temp agency for 150 I would try it, maybe I will look.



find someone you would like to have work for you, and have them go to the temp agency to apply. that way you get someone you like, and the paperwork / Workmans comp gets handled.


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## pdqdl (Dec 10, 2010)

There is a lot going on in this thread that I would like to comment on; I'll try to keep it short. I used to pay almost 100% of payroll, I was in the "assigned risk pool, so I have learned quite a bit about reducing the workers comp bill.

Your WC bill is mostly determined by what is called your "experienced modifier". This is a simple number that is associated with your company for insurance purposes by an organization called National Council on Comp. Ins. or NCCI (you can contact them at Midwestern Division, P.O. 19430 Springfield, IL 62794-9430 or call them at 1800-622-4123 cust serv)
_All the insurance companies report their expenses to NCCI, so switching companies will not help change your experience mod._

They calculate the experienced mod with a terribly complex formula that involves comparing the predicted injury related expenses for your work categories and the actual expenses incurred by your insurance company. It also factors in how many claims you have had in addition to the total expenses incurred. Fortunately, a cap is set at $5000 for each claim, so a huge injury does not affect your experienced mod any more than a serious injury.

1. The best way to get a lower workers comp bill is to get your experience modifier down as low as possible. A few years back, my experience mod was 1.66, and *my workers comp bill for tree work was almost 100% of payroll!*

some methods to get your experience lower: 
Pay small medical bills yourself. In Missouri, you are allowed to pay for all medical expenses less than $500 for the express purpose of reducing your experience mod. _Trust me, guys, it is worth it!_

Do what you can to reduce your insurance companies losses. this includes monitoring your employees medical claims very carefully, taking injured employees to a health provider that specializes in occupational health injuries, and making DAMN sure that injured employees are required to return to work under limited duty as soon as the doctor releases them. 

2. One month prior to renewing your WC policy every year, ask your insurance broker for a copy of your "loss runs". Even if you do not do anything with your copy of your incurred expenses in the last year, it puts your broker on notice that you are an experienced buyer, and that you are shopping around for a better price! _You will probably see an immediate reduction in your renewal fee._

3. Do what you can to reduce your payroll in the more expensive categories. As has been noted above, you can divide your payroll into different categories, each of which has different fee schedules. My company employees in these categories:
Class Code
Tree pruning: 0106
Salesmen 8742
Clerical 8810
Park NOC 9102
Street cleaning 9402

Each category has its own relative rate of insurance expense, so the more you keep each employee registered in a less expensive workers comp rates, the more money you will have at the end of the year. One good way of keeping a good record of the different categories of pay is to pay each employee a different scale for different duties. Obviously, the employees will always be making sure that you pay them as long as possible in the higher rates. I maintain different pay scales for snow removal (street cleaning), tree pruning, and Park NOC (landscaping).

4. Obviously, it pays huge rewards to your bottom line if you can eliminate insurance fraud. My experience rate was very high due to a series of fraudulent or exaggerated work comp claims. I have been hammering away at the workers comp issue or 10 or 15 years now, and I went from an experienced mod of 1.66, to my current rate of .94 and an ARAP rate of 1.00 [your ARAP is another number that magically gets multiplied by your insurance company to make the bill bigger. Generally, the higher your experience mod, the higher your ARAP]

I hope all of this text helps somebody save some money, because I really, REALLY hate insurance companies, and workers comp in particular.


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## cjnspecial (Dec 10, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> There is a lot going on in this thread that I would like to comment on; I'll try to keep it short. I used to pay almost 100% of payroll, I was in the "assigned risk pool, so I have learned quite a bit about reducing the workers comp bill.
> 
> Your WC bill is mostly determined by what is called your "experienced modifier". This is a simple number that is associated with your company for insurance purposes by an organization called National Council on Comp. Ins. or NCCI (you can contact them at Midwestern Division, P.O. 19430 Springfield, IL 62794-9430 or call them at 1800-622-4123 cust serv)
> _All the insurance companies report their expenses to NCCI, so switching companies will not help change your experience mod._
> ...



A lot of good advise there. I want you to be aware that some laws have changed that can really haunt you for paying small claims without reporting them....It's too much to go into here but ask your insurance company about the new "Medicare Set-Aside" requirements. Also, losses under $5000 are the biggest factor in calculating your emod but the ones over $5000 do weigh in. 

Also, Why all the hate for insurance companies? We know a lot of claims wreak of fraud but due to the circumstances and laws, the burden of proof is on us and there usually no way to PROVE(not strongly suspect) that it is fraudulent. If you had a 1.66 emod, I would bet that your insurance company has paid out a good bit more than you have paid in....just a guess though.


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## lego1970 (Dec 11, 2010)

As a worker that got injured on the job, here is my take and experience on the whole "workers comp" from an employee's veiwpoint. 

Broke a leg in a simple routine job and had only worked for this employer for a couple months. 

My experience with my employer.

Good guy, although you could tell he was coached by lawyers as to what to say and when to say it. Made me feel very like I was faking or somehow trying to take advantage of him. I could tell it was not his normal personality, but out of fear of being sued he had his gaurd up. Understandable. 

Insurance people. Again, I think the nurses and w/c agent were sincere but you could tell that they were coached from the lawyers. 

Doctor. Again, either from oath or by nature you could tell he cared for his patient, but again it's a w/c claim and therefore he's in the middle torn between keeping the patient happy and at the same time keeping the person writing the check happy.

Me, I felt bad, especially for only having worked for this guy a couple months and now I was responsible for driving up his w/c rates. I got off of w/c very early, made my own secondary and third cast from supplies off the internet and home depot. I never solicited an attorney and while they settled and wrote me a check for $3100, I never asked, threatened, suggested, or anything like that for money. I guess the settlement is kinda required by the state of Missouri and the Judges frown on the insurance company if some kind of settlement is not offered and taken. I took the money, paid some bills and used the left over to take my son on his summer vacation. Sure I could of given the money to the company owner, but I doubt he would of taken it, and the vacation made up for not being able to take my son on vacation the year before when I was messed up, paying somebody else to mow my lawn, having my 6 year old son help with grocery shopping, moving my leg around, fetching me water, etc,.........the rental hospital bed that I had to pay for, the 2/3 wage of what I would of made, having my elderly parents take care of me, instead of the other way around, etc, etc, etc. 

No real point to my story but in my opinion,
I hate people that take advantage of it because it makes people with legitimate claims suffer and causes high rates for people/bosses that are supplying jobs, however I hate people who think that every employee is looking for a free ride. There is no simple answer.

BTW, I know this guy and his nephew visit this site so I'll say this, while I don't get along with either one, (for different reasons) I don't have hard feeling for them and I never did mean for my accident to occur. For what its worth, both the fellow and his nephew are extremely good at their jobs. They are fearless climbers, well educated, dedicated towards aborculture, and take care of their customers. As some on this website already know, I just don't work well with others.


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## pbtree (Dec 11, 2010)

ducaticorse said:


> So in effect, tree work in CA goes for about 40% higher than it does around here. If you could scale your op down to 3 full time guys on books, a chip truck, log truck, chipper and a 60ft bucket truck all paid for, what would you charge for a 10 hour day out there?



Everything in this state is too darned expensive.


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## pbtree (Dec 11, 2010)

alpineman said:


> Well then you would be wrong....do you have one!!?? Costs me just over $700 a month, and thats just to cover 2 ground guys. Frivolous is a very subjective word. I grew up working and sucking it up if you had a minor injury.....NOT THESE DAYS! Is it legal for me to threaten to fire them if they make a stupid claim? Obviously not, but I can make their life miserable until they quite!!!



CA is an at will employment state - basically you can let them go for anything that is not prohibited by law (gender, race, age, etc.)


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## Koa Man (Dec 12, 2010)

I thought Commifornia was a socialist state.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 13, 2010)

alpineman said:


> Well then you would be wrong....do you have one!!?? Costs me just over $700 a month, and thats just to cover 2 ground guys. Frivolous is a very subjective word. I grew up working and sucking it up if you had a minor injury.....NOT THESE DAYS! Is it legal for me to threaten to fire them if they make a stupid claim? Obviously not, but I can make their life miserable until they quite!!!


two words...........drug test........


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 13, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> If you guys are using a temp agency you are already paying the high workers comp rate built in.



Maybe true sometimes, but I remember paying 14 something an hour to cover everything. Not bad...imho, and I more than got my money's worth. I've had good luck with them so far.

The main reason is when I don't need them....they aren't my problem. The second best reason is no real paperwork...just a labor bill.

I agree that it's not necessarily a total wc solution for what you said, but it keeps me separate from so much nonsense, and it is flexible.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 13, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> two words...........drug test........



Yup, we drug test and expect a valid driver's license. We are TCIA Accredited and I am CTSP and so is Mike. We have a safety meeting every Wednesday and all sign off. Also by signing you understand that any injury no matter how small, get's reported immediately. You will not get away on Monday saying you got hurt Friday. Documentation is the word.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Dec 14, 2010)

cjnspecial said:


> ... I want you to be aware that some laws have changed that can really haunt you for paying small claims without reporting them...



In Missouri, we are expected to report ALL injuries, whether or not there is a claim for compensation. My insurance company will even contact me and offer to allow me to pay medical expenses less than $500.00.

You see, they will negotiate a lower bill from the medical providers, then send me the final bill. Lower experience mod, lower bills, more money!



cjnspecial said:


> ... Also, Why all the hate for insurance companies? ...




I hate insurance companies in general. The concept of insurance is a bit offensive for me, just to begin with. I believe that people should take responsibility for their actions, and so many don't. Then I pay higher premiums than my losses, year after year.

The insurance companies are in the business to make money. They do so by averaging the losses, constantly boosting their income, and then pulling every dirty trick they can to make sure that they don't loose money.

It's not that I wouldn't do the same thing if I were running an insurance company, it's just that I don't like the necessity of buying their services to begin with.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

alpineman said:


> Do you guys have workman's comp and do you hate it like I do? Ever since I started paying for workman's comp, every ground man with any little ache and pain is always going to the doctor and racking up bills. I don't even know if it is worth it any more to have!! Anyone feel my pain....



How are using comp. to get an ache and pain fixed , it all about claims , sounds like you may be talking about health ins... My comp is based on hours worked doing what type of work ,tree work comp. is ridiculous compared to say landscape , maybe your confused I have state comp. it was the cheapest but I have never had a claim either , I would imagine that after my first claim things will start getting pricey , but if that happens I will just drag the guy to a lawnmower and say he tripped walking behind it ...I am not saying to do this but you COULD have every worker considered a sub contractor , the only issue with that is if you ever have a W Comp. audit they will ask for a sub list thats where you may get cancelled ..


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## pdqdl (Dec 14, 2010)

The laws concerning whether an employee covered by WC are pretty specific. If you were paying for WC very long, you would know that the annual audit always asks for subcontractors.

If your "subcontractors" have not provided you with proof of WC coverage, you will get a bill for ALL subcontractor payments. There is no insurance advantage whatsoever for calling an employee a sub.

When I pay a snow removal subcontractor, I divide the payment into two parts: machine rental, and payroll. Payroll is usually some pitifull amount per hour like the minimum wage, and all workers comp is paid on that amount. Whatever the total expense for workers comp, matching FICA, unemployment insurance, etc; that amount of my expense is deducted from the gross pay on the snow removal. The balance is paid as machine rental. This keeps me from incurring WC & other payroll expenses that are truly the subcontractors obligation. At the same time, it also provides each guy plowing with real WC insurance coverage, should something bad happen.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have used a payroll company and the WC ins. through the Hartford and never had a audit with them , now I use NJM of New Jersey and process my payroll in house for 4 years and last year was my first audit ... Easy enough to get around just fax some info from taxes and answer a few questions , as far as a bill for subs if they cannot prove they are insured than we deduct that from there payment and pay the WC for there coverage as needed ...


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## pdqdl (Dec 14, 2010)

Well! Things are a lot different in New Jersey, aren't they?

We get audited every year, without fail. Always have, and I imagine that we always will, too. All the contractors that I know are always audited, too.

The audit really isn't too much of an invasion. The auditor sets an appointment, shows up, then looks at your payroll for the whole year, asks some questions, pokes around a little for something to be wrong, then leaves. 

It is nothing like an IRS audit; the insurance company just wants to make sure that you understand that they are not doing business on the "honor system". And they WILL send you a bill for any errors or irregularities that they find.


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## mikewhite85 (Dec 14, 2010)

So this has been my first year with workers comp. Not entirely sure what to expect when I get an audit. I assume that audits will be yearly in California. Thankfully, my payroll isn't really high because I only work on weekends, typically with only one groundie, who usually nets between 200-300 a weekend. 

I have subbed a climber once (another AS member) to help me out on a job. If you are only subbing an individual, he has to have his own w/c? This applies even when you have them fill out a w9 and go through payroll?

Sorry for my ignorance. I am still pretty new to the whole thing.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Well! Things are a lot different in New Jersey, aren't they?
> 
> We get audited every year, without fail. Always have, and I imagine that we always will, too. All the contractors that I know are always audited, too.
> 
> ...



Jesus Christ you need to relax , all I was saying and not directed to you but I was never audited when I used the payroll company to handle everything , but I just got a letter from NJM that I need to send some tax info and a list of subs if any ... Its a new company too me so maybe doing my own payroll that will be the norm now but I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you , JUST TALKING with ya , so go take a pill and relax...


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## pdqdl (Dec 14, 2010)

I don't think you read me right. I'm not stirring up any trouble, I'm just commenting on the difference in our areas. 

It's also possible that the insurance companies have more trust when payroll is done by a separate payroll agency. Quite frankly, I have never heard of someone NOT getting audited. I always thought that it was the normal way of doing business.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think you read me right. I'm not stirring up any trouble, I'm just commenting on the difference in our areas.
> 
> It's also possible that the insurance companies have more trust when payroll is done by a separate payroll agency. Quite frankly, I have never heard of someone NOT getting audited. I always thought that it was the normal way of doing business.



I am .... Now through the payroll company I didn't , or maybe I should rephrase that and I wasn't directly approached by the payroll or Hartford companies ... Theres always things that my wife would need to provide for them... Maybe we were I dunno , it wasn't til a few years back that I really gave a #### about those things , they were always handled by my wife...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think you read me right. I'm not stirring up any trouble.



He does that sometimes. 
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> He does that sometimes.
> Jeff



Listen Mr.. 80's everyday , I try to speak clear and without antagonizing anyone but its hard for me to understand everything all the time ...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Listen Mr.. 80's everyday , I try to speak clear and without antagonizing anyone but its hard for me to understand everything all the time ...



 That is what I would say! 
Jeff 

ps: it was only in the 70's today.


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## pdqdl (Dec 14, 2010)

True.

But the insurance company could just ask you to mail it or fax it. I suspect that they like to come by the office in person to see how hard you have to work to get the report printed.

If your computer can spit out the report, it is probably not "cooked books". If the accountant/preparer is stammering and mumbling while stalling the audit, because they can't reproduce numbers to match previous reporting: you can bet they will look at every number real close!


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## ATH (Dec 14, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> ...I am not saying to do this but you COULD have every worker considered a sub contractor , the only issue with that is if you ever have a W Comp. audit they will ask for a sub list thats where you may get cancelled ..



WC should be the least of your worries if you are calling employees subcontractors. The IRS has a lot to say about classification of workers...
Back payroll taxes and FICA have put more than one company out of business when they thought they were using independent contractors.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 15, 2010)

ATH said:


> WC should be the least of your worries if you are calling employees subcontractors. The IRS has a lot to say about classification of workers...
> Back payroll taxes and FICA have put more than one company out of business when they thought they were using independent contractors.



I don't have employee subs , but know some guys who do it that way , there is one guy who gets paid as a sub and somehow he will distribute the money to the men ... I have employees nothing shady here ...


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## treeman75 (May 27, 2012)

I am going to be calling my insurance man tuesday to check on wc. I was wondering if you can get a discounted rate by having mandatory safety meetings. I am thinking its around 19% in Iowa.


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## cjnspecial (May 27, 2012)

treeman75 said:


> I am going to be calling my insurance man tuesday to check on wc. I was wondering if you can get a discounted rate by having mandatory safety meetings. I am thinking its around 19% in Iowa.



It's not mandatory and it's really up to the underwriter. The more safety controls you have in place, the more likely the underwriter is to give you discounts though. 
PS: make sure the safety meetings document who was there, what was covered, date and sign out sheets.


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## beastmaster (May 28, 2012)

Sucks to be a legit company in Calif. But its no garden party being an employee either out here. The Pay scale sucks, mostly due to the high rate o WC. 
I'll sit home and watch t.v. before I work for less then 17.00 an hour. I work under the table sometimes for Cash, but then I worry what if I was seriously injured on the job? I am an old school kind of guy. I would never file a claim unless it was really serious, in that case I would be glade for WC. That is what it suppose to be for. 
I have known people who hurt them self's playing soccer or some other activity away from work and wait tell they get to work and act like it happened there. The mentality being let my employer pay for my folly. That is stealing same as if you came in with a gun and robbed your employer. If such claims were investigated and prosecuted to the fullest, and those who do it given a stiff prison sentence, rates would go down, and the pay scale would go up I beleave. As it is now at lest in Calif, your chances of getting caught are nearly zero.
I worked for companys who have done the following to off set the high cost of WC. I'm not suggesting any one do this, I'm just saying,
Cash for all over time off the books, bought a truck off one guy and he deducted the payments off the top of what I was owed off the book. One pay scale for climbing, one for when I was out of the tree(hated that) One guy had WC but wouldn't put you on the books unless there was an accident. Then if you were hurt that was your first day. That same guy was blackmailed by a employee for 10,000.00 for an injury the employee got playing ice hockey. We knew he was lying, but he held all the cards(it a 10,000. per employee fine I think for not having WC)
I am currently working on my contractors lic. so my employers won't have to pay WC, but then I have to offset my pay scale to cover my ins. 
50% + WC here in Calif. hurts every one but the ins. companys. Giving dishonest employees a free rains to rip off their employers is the problem I believe, and making examples out of rip offs the solution I think. Put the fear of God in those who 
feel the need to rip off their employers. WC in theory is great. I like knowing it's there if I am injured and need serous medical attention while hurt on the job. If I was hurt and could never work again, I would be thankful for WC. But it seems it has gotten frivolous and a burden, hurting legit guys who pay it, making a uneven playing field against those who don't, and trickling down to the honest workers in reduce pay. 








b


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## Toddppm (May 28, 2012)

The extra half of OT is supposed to be subtracted from the totals anyways here? If you can keep exact records changing from one category to the next from job to job is how to save money.

50%????!!!! That would suck.


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## arborjockey (May 28, 2012)

Im so glad that I found this forum to vent on. I hate the doc nothing terrifies me more. Id rather stitch myself then ever show up in a hospital. I've been blessed with having no accidents that needed medical attention. Chainsaw rash, open wounds, hurt neck/back all nursed at home with speedy recovery. Now I go 1 time because of spinal pain in my neck (after a day of crane removals) and its the end of the world. Happened on friday and I let the payroll service know on Monday. OH $HIT NOW IM GOING TO BE FIRED for not notifying them in 24hrs. I told my boss and the other forman that day. My boss is denying my claim and theirs a investigation. WTF. He pays W.C. plus regular medical. They both said no. Now the hospital wants $. KAISER insurance wants me in rehab. I've worked 12-14hrs a day since. Im animal been this way since I was 20. 

What service I got was .....go home take an aspirin. Stupid educated idiot. I told him I don't do drugs but thanks for thinking of me. Being I am in the $&%*en E.R. come on saw bones no xray?

Sat in there naked with a dress on for 4 hrs to hear that. Id rather go to Guatanomo with my dog leash. At least id be left with a little pride. Hawaii can be shut a turd world country sometimes.`


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## cjnspecial (May 29, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Sucks to be a legit company in Calif. But its no garden party being an employee either out here. The Pay scale sucks, mostly due to the high rate o WC.
> I'll sit home and watch t.v. before I work for less then 17.00 an hour. I work under the table sometimes for Cash, but then I worry what if I was seriously injured on the job? I am an old school kind of guy. I would never file a claim unless it was really serious, in that case I would be glade for WC. That is what it suppose to be for.
> I have known people who hurt them self's playing soccer or some other activity away from work and wait tell they get to work and act like it happened there. The mentality being let my employer pay for my folly. That is stealing same as if you came in with a gun and robbed your employer. If such claims were investigated and prosecuted to the fullest, and those who do it given a stiff prison sentence, rates would go down, and the pay scale would go up I beleave. As it is now at lest in Calif, your chances of getting caught are nearly zero.
> I worked for companys who have done the following to off set the high cost of WC. I'm not suggesting any one do this, I'm just saying,
> ...



A simple claim in CA cost the ins company 2-3 times more than most other states. Everyone gets an attorney, lots of cheating employers/employees and last time I checked there was no cap on attorneys fees. If CA want to lower rates, there are plenty of things they can do. Arkansas has a great comp system and some of the best rates in the nation.


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## mattfr12 (May 29, 2012)

ATH said:


> WC should be the least of your worries if you are calling employees subcontractors. The IRS has a lot to say about classification of workers...
> Back payroll taxes and FICA have put more than one company out of business when they thought they were using independent contractors.



Trying to call people sub contractors is to risky. Your better off just paying up or you try to run black ops and face jail time. Is it really worth being incarcerated?

If you have a family you really have to think about it. it cost me close to 10-15 grand a year for comp depending on how much i pay in wages. i will gladly pay it to stay out of prison.

If you are operating with out be aware of a few things. Your home can be taken, You can be put in prison. those are the two biggest of a long list of bad things that can happen to you. your family could wind up on the street because someone wanted to save $$.

If someone gets hurt and you don't have it your personal assets can be sought after.


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2012)

"Subcontractors" is one of the reasons that the worker's comp agency comes to your office and audits. They always ask you for your subcontractor payments, and then they insist on seeing the certificates of insurance from your subs that protect them from WC claims. 

If your "sub" employee does not have a certificate of insurance _on file_ in your office, you will pay workers comp on the value of the payments that you made to them. In some cases, this will cost you more than if you had just listed them as an employee.

Payroll cheats, payroll classification errors, and subcontractor payments: these are the three big things that a WC audit looks for.


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## Toddppm (May 29, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> If you have a family you really have to think about it. it cost me close to 10-15 grand a year for comp depending on how much i pay in wages. i will gladly pay it to stay out of prison..



Only 10-15k?? I have a really small co. and run alot of lawn and landscape category comp and still pay almost $10k/year and I've got great rates. That doesn't even include me, I've got myself excluded. You're working 6-7 days a week doing tree work with all that eqpt. and only paying $10-15K?


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## mattfr12 (May 29, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> Only 10-15k?? I have a really small co. and run alot of lawn and landscape category comp and still pay almost $10k/year and I've got great rates. That doesn't even include me, I've got myself excluded. You're working 6-7 days a week doing tree work with all that eqpt. and only paying $10-15K?



yes once you have had comp for so many years your rates go down. you can leave the state and go to an underwriter the first few years are the worst. you can even go as far as joining a union if needed. their are a lot of options you can look into. i have an accountant that points out areas like this where i could save money or is a smarter move.

a tree climber for me can be anywhere from 4-6k a year saying he makes 50k or less. their is only one other climber besides myself. and me being an LLC means i can't buy comp for myself. i have to use an outsource such as Aflac.

through the state the rates where 3k for every 20k in wages. so 40k a year is 6k in comp.
a ground guy is 1.5k for every 20k through and underwriter we are at around 900$ per 20k

but have never had a claim in 6 years. knock on wood. and have 6-8 employees at any given time excluding myself. during the winter we run 2 crews of 3. summer 2 crews of 4. next summer if the resources are available we are gonna try to bump up to 4 crews of 3.

the rates vary greatly state to state some states do not allow underwriters.


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## 2treeornot2tree (May 29, 2012)

Matt,

The laws in Pa have changed, now you can cover yourself with workers comp. I just declined it when i renewed my policy


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## mattfr12 (May 29, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Matt,
> 
> The laws in Pa have changed, now you can cover yourself with workers comp. I just declined it when i renewed my policy



Wow thats kind of nice ill have to look at what is cheaper aflac hits the wallet kind of hard.


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## arborjockey (May 30, 2012)

I hear owners cry about W.C. being expensive and it is but when I bring in between $1,700-2,400 everyday for years and years how is that not compensating for it. Sitting in your office or big car.....drinking coffee and smokin big cigars. You owners really think your big shots when you start doing paperwork. This is what I see. I see former climbers either have business ethics and save $ or have a windfall of some sort and get the company going. Then all the ground work they layed while working hard pays off with good clientele. Then you screw the other climbers and crew by only working when you feel like it. Hit a couple of gravey jobs 2-3 times a week, pull in some quick cash, pay the guys some chump change, and then play with your kids the rest of the week. Rare to find an owner who busts it like a foreman. Even then they cry about operating cost. All while riding around in a new truck with a new wife in her new car, that's parked in the new garage. They don't spen much time there because of so much vacationing. Be really big or be really small I don't care pay me or don't get into it at all. Famouse owner words upon hire.....I know your worth this but I can only pay you this ....

They need an option for employees to have their own insurance at work. Then I can tell the boss I pay all my bennies you just pay me my worth.

Such B.S. all I want to do is cut trees. One of the reasons I picked this profession was the low oversight now I might as well be an electrician.


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## Kottonwood (May 30, 2012)

so what is a top rate climber worth then?

25 an hour? 30? Salary? Percentage?

I think most climbers think they are worth more than they are. Many folks get blinded into thinking that climbing the tree is the only part of this business. I have one climber like that. I pay everyone ten percent commision if they sell a job, even if they do it on my time. Got this one guy who is always handing me scribbled napkins and #### with his "estimate" thinking he should get commission for that...... that ain't selling a job.

Same dude is always taking free firewood, borrowing a truck, showing up fifteen minutes late..... then has the ####ing nerve to tell me he deserves a raise. Guy is completely blinded.... thinks he does the whole job himself and should get paid as such, thinks I am bankrolling everyday when he busts his ass.... doesn't realize the outside costs and work that goes into selling and completing a job smoothly EVERY DAY, he thinks making a grand in a day is a good day..... 


Either way though, I see your point. Most top rate climbers probably don't make what they are truly worth cuz there aren't many companies efficient enough to get the volume out of em that they need. When I worked for other people the first thing I did was buy my own insurance and climbing saw. I almost always got paid on percentage as a sub as well. Or a daily rate which was high, I didn't want people hiring me unless they really needed me and were gonna make enough money to pay me what I am worth. Whenever I do a job as a sub I always showed up and handed my insurance card to the boss and let him now if #### gets ####ed up from in the tree it is on me. I averaged 350-500 a day as a sub, I felt like I was getting paid what I was worth.

Part of the reason owners make the big bucks is because they assume all the risk. Something gets ####ed or job goes long it comes out of their pockets. Assume some of that risk and you should be paid accordingly.... want to be on the clock all day and not worry about what happens when you crush a fence or gutter all while using someone else's saws and ropes..... you get paid accordingly, doesn't matter how good you are.


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## Toddppm (May 30, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> I hear owners cry about W.C. being expensive and it is but when I bring in between $1,700-2,400 everyday for years and years how is that not compensating for it. Sitting in your office or big car.....drinking coffee and smokin big cigars. You owners really think your big shots when you start doing paperwork. This is what I see. I see former climbers either have business ethics and save $ or have a windfall of some sort and get the company going. Then all the ground work they layed while working hard pays off with good clientele. Then you screw the other climbers and crew by only working when you feel like it. Hit a couple of gravey jobs 2-3 times a week, pull in some quick cash, pay the guys some chump change, and then play with your kids the rest of the week. Rare to find an owner who busts it like a foreman. Even then they cry about operating cost. All while riding around in a new truck with a new wife in her new car, that's parked in the new garage. They don't spen much time there because of so much vacationing. Be really big or be really small I don't care pay me or don't get into it at all. Famouse owner words upon hire.....I know your worth this but I can only pay you this ....
> 
> They need an option for employees to have their own insurance at work. Then I can tell the boss I pay all my bennies you just pay me my worth.
> 
> Such B.S. all I want to do is cut trees. One of the reasons I picked this profession was the low oversight now I might as well be an electrician.



You sound like a problem child employee :hmm3grin2orange: Yeah, you got it all figured out, all the owners of tree co's that don't work in the field are high rollin I dare an employee of mine to say that #### to me, I don't care how good you are or what you think you're worth you'd be hitting the road.

I try not to mention any costs to my employees unless they ask and try not to ##### about it on here. Workers comp is nothing compared to everything else, unless you're paying 50%, like I said that would suck!


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## arborjockey (May 31, 2012)

In production work the owner has a problem with me if he gets in the way of production. You pay for what you don't know and I expect them to know sales and business. Don't bother me with with politics in the business end I wont bother you with tree work. Hand me the schedule and I hand you results. Problem is when I have to tell them how to run the business and explain basic tree service problems. All I want to do is make the owner rich so I get a pat on the back. 90% of the time it works for 1-2 years. Then they want MORE and MORE

As far as W.C. gos im heading in for my 1 of 40 messages and I get $500. Maybe its not so bad


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## beastmaster (May 31, 2012)

There are as many types of owners as there are people. I've worked for some real A- h_les over the years, who were more then fair in their compensation to their employees . I have been self-employed so I understand whats involved. We employees only see part of the picture, I personally don't have what it takes. I'm not ashamed of that fact. 
Running a successfull business is a lot of stress. When everyone has gone home your still working. Chipper breaks down, or a job runs over your handling that after everyone else is gone home doing their thing. 
I have worked as a foremen for several company's. You have to walk the line between owner and crew. That is not always easy.
If it wasn't for owner operators where would we work?
It does bother me some times when I see a painter getting 35.00 an hour for doing trim, and I just did a hazard tree over a house for half that.
But when the Gov., fed. or state steps in and cripples an industry like they do here in California, with WC and the new Tear smog laws it really Chaps my hide. Worse those things are only enforced against legit Companys big and small, yet allow those flying under the radar, to work illegals at 12.00 an hour, not have WC, etc. and that steals work from the guys who are doing it right. 
If your bidding against guys who have no over head, that affects everyone. It not a level playing field. 
There are some cheap, scandalous operators out there, but for the most part I think they try to do their best. We just don't always see it or understand the big picture.


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## MacLaren (May 31, 2012)

Its just like the old saying, youll work harder for yourself than any other job.
Its surely true in the restaurant biz as well.


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## arborjockey (May 31, 2012)

Your right beastmaster,

The reason im getting after owners is a direct result of the one im working for. He's speaks well just not a written man. This is hard because he cant write estimates. He gos home and has his wife doit. The other forman doesn't climb or understand tree work. Then theirs his wife who works there? Why any of them are working there I'll never know. Every big job i finalize. Whether its a big hotel or residents he leans on me. When it comes to mechanics, tree diseases, and pretty much everything . I like him as a person but I have to keep in mind he listens to everyone and makes a his choice based on an idea. 

At barttlett tree I had the #1 hated saleman in the company (out of maybe 100 ) He'd been there since the 60's. HE WAS SO RUDE HE HAD BEEN BANNED FROM COMPANY GATHERINGS. He had a P.H.D from Penn state. Smart ol fart when it came to the tree industry. I never had a problem with him in 2 years.

My last boss in Oregon was a state wide known hardball. He fired more guys then this economy. My father has known him since high school and he told me I wasn't allowed to work with him. Well I did and that 3g logger taught me more in the 1st 2 weeks then I learned in years for other people. When I moved to Hawaii he gave me

1-288 xp 
2-36" bars
4-36" chains
1-echo trim saw (brand new)
2-bars 
2-chains for it
2-qts Amsoil
new
5\8's lanyard
Lots of ppe glass, gloves, 
newboots
oh on my birthday I absolutely refused a new 460. 
He also called and told me he would send me a free plane ticket back any time. 
1st time I met Mike Pihl he brought up my boss saying he's a hell of a tree guy. 

I don't mind being under paid but I do mind being under appreciated. 
By the way my 2 hr. W.C. paid for massage was great. With that $500 w.c. bonus im going to Disneyland


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## jefflovstrom (May 31, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> There are as many types of owners as there are people. I've worked for some real A- h_les over the years, who were more then fair in their compensation to their employees . I have been self-employed so I understand whats involved. We employees only see part of the picture, I personally don't have what it takes.



I think you do, I wish I could afford yo!
Jeff


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## arborjockey (Jun 1, 2012)

Most employers smoke screen the hole thing. Yeah its hard doing all the paper work and appointments. Then t he stress of having work for everyone. Families depend on you. Blah blah blah your the one making the $ if you don't like it go work for somebody. I had an employer that made more money off 2 guys then he did 30. So guess what? 28 dudes went home. My family had a business in northern and southern california for over 50 years. Between 5 and 30 employees depending on the job. You guys cry about being undercut in the tree industry let me ask you this: can Mexicans paint houses. Well that's what they competed against as painting contractors. You think tree prices went down. Try the paint world. My grandfather still ended up with a million dollar retirement because he out worked them and sold the job not the price. When w.c. came around he payed it. Im not saying w.c. isn't to high it im saying as an employer its your bed you sleep in it. If you dont like it why are you in it? 
Oh I gunna get hell for this....

Oh crap its 11:30pm


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## pdqdl (Jun 2, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> ...Workers comp is nothing compared to everything else, unless you're paying 50%, like I said that would suck!



I was paying almost 100% of "tree wages" payroll a few years ago.

Yep! That was damned expensive, and made it hard to get jobs and make money. It also trained me to be an expert at keeping the WC as low as possible.


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