# Can This Live Oak be Saved?



## Fireaxman (Apr 18, 2006)

Katrina damage. The folks that own it have enjoyed it for 3 generations. It's five and a half feet diameter at the base. The North fork is 2.9 feet dbh, the South fork is 3.8 feet dbh. It lost about a third of it's crown in broken branches. 3 major branches are left in tact, 2 on the South fork and 1 on the North fork.

When I got the hangers out of the top and got the trash cleared out from around the base I found the split in the base. On the East side of the tree it is split open about 1 inch all the way to the ground. On the West side of the tree there is a crack all the way to the ground, but the crack is not opened up.

I don't have a big enough drill to rod the base. Fact is I really don't know what I am doing with rodding and cabling anyway (other than the basics I learned from the ISA recomended practices pamphlet and what I have learned in this forum). I'm a volunteer, not a certified arborist. These folks don't have a lot of money. If I can't do anything to help them, we'll have to cut it down to protect the buildings. But the lady who lives here climbed on this tree as a child, and it is a valuable shade tree to her and her husband. They are willing to risk a few hundred dollars (for materials, my labor is free) and the buildings (they are insured) if enough people in this forum think it's worth the risk and you can give me a few ideas on what needs to be done.

I'm looking at the "Dynamic Non-Invasive Tree Cable" systems in the Sherrill catalog. Any suggestions?


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## treeseer (Apr 18, 2006)

Excellent pics. In the first pic it shows the ends both right and left are very heavy, putting a lot of strain on that defect. I'd definitely lighten them up with little cuts, preserving the shape of the tree.

The cabling BMP's cost $5.--is that what you looked at? It's pretty detailed. 

http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/B...ces-Series---Tree-Support-Systems-P156C4.aspx

I'm not a cabling expert but it looks like that tree could be stabilized for the long run if done right.


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## Treeman14 (Apr 18, 2006)

I agree that this tree can be saved. Southern live oaks are tough old birds! I have to strongly object to cutting any more off right now. Remember the concept of the energy bank. That tree took some major withdrawals last year. It's time now to wait until it deposits some reserves back into its account. 

That will be a tough one to cable due to the configuration of the leads and the wide spread (typical live oak). I don't mean the actual installation will be difficult, but figuring out the best placement will require some good judgement.


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## OTG BOSTON (Apr 18, 2006)

I would definitely lighten the ends significantly. With a trunk wound like that, you would want to lighten the stress on the crack as much as possible. A cable is probably needed for this particular situation, but I usually try to correct defects with pruning


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## treeseer (Apr 18, 2006)

"I have to strongly object to cutting any more off right now. Remember the concept of the energy bank."

Brett, those ends have a lot of foliage that is newly in the process of being shaded out because of the stem bending since the storm. Removing some out of the middles of those wads with little cuts, preserving the shape of the tree, will make very little withdrawal of resource reserves or reduction in photsynthesis in the leaves. 

But it would reduce those lever arms a lot, and close the crack a bit too I bet. :help:


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## Fireaxman (Apr 18, 2006)

treeseer said:


> The cabling BMP's cost $5.--is that what you looked at? It's pretty detailed.
> 
> http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/B...ces-Series---Tree-Support-Systems-P156C4.aspx



Yes, that is what I have. It's good info, looks doable. Just never did it before.



Treeman14 said:


> That will be a tough one to cable due to the configuration of the leads and the wide spread (typical live oak). I don't mean the actual installation will be difficult, but figuring out the best placement will require some good judgement.



One of the things I like about what I am reading in the Sherrill catalog on "Dynamic Non-Invasive" systems is I think I can play trial and error a little bit. I've got some good pulling equipment (a Griphoist that can pull about 2,000 lbs on single part line). I'm thinking I can rig a couple of temporary supports with my bull rope and see how they affect the crack, then relax them onto the "Cobra" or "Tree Save" system after I get the more "permanent" system installed.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 19, 2006)

Dynamically bracing a defect so that it can move is counter indicated generally. Can rods be placed above crack to give joint back lost leveraged tension? Then, perhaps dynamic brace high? Elastic devices held under constant tension lose elasticity, and also strength degrade faster i think.

Other considerations are area 'histories and heights'. Mostly for wind loading appraisal. Have other wind blocking trees, buildings, structures been removed or installed? Is this crown highest around?

Another consideration/ appraisal would be if other trees touching had been removed, but doesn't look applicable here. But, if they were applicable; removing another tree or structure, or trimming branches from questioned or other tree that gave contact could reduce support that became depended on/ tree wasn't 'exercised' and groan for. In the case of removing a touching tree that supported or even only touched at wind loading to support or just limit movement, a double impact against questioned tree could be made. Tree is question could then have support removed, and at same time get more wind loading; a truly compounding/ pivotal change. High reduction is less important if tree is not highest thing in area; it pays off more if tree takes more high wind loading from being tallest around. calculating wind loading point to pivot at defect as amount of leverage times loading force. In woods codoms, splits would then form to keep tree fairly even with rest, and none get high leveraged wind loading.

Don't let thoughts and prescriptions stop at the ground! i would consider grass removal and any sprinkler removal, keep low/wide branchings to force water delivery out far, to force roots to chase; also to keep low wide stability; like a pyramid martial arts stance. This would give wider leveraged root support, calculating above trunk as leveraged load and below as leveraged support. It would also bind more heavy soil to root mass, and at leveraged points for wider, heavier base for more stability. Mulch, don't mow; give the soil sea all around mulch protection; or the top layers must die off to give it where ground is bare; this protective covering to the rich soil sea below compacts easier and breathes less than mulch by mulch being more crushable and then restore to give dynamic load relief, and also larger aggregate to allow breathing and spread out loads. Also, mulch itself would be lighter protecting device than same amount of soil depth.

Think in 2 perpendicular section halves; high and low; intersected by lean and countering lean(s); making quadrant sections. Low is stability, counter lean weight helps support lean; though that is alterable with wind loading; bottom weight stability is not; especially underground!

Part of leveraged angle is the lean gives higher forces, but also leveraged angle reduces support area; breaking it into compression, tension, and leveraged distance between. Per a given angle, a certain amount of compression distance back from lean will be taken, rest is leveraged distance to tension, and supporting tension itself. So, a wider trunk has more leveraged distance to tension area, from this compression part taken. But, a codom or vertical defect that splits that in half, takes more than half the leveraged distance away to tension, which then needs mroe tension area that also takes away from leveraged distance to tension area. The 2 factors together place higher tension on the tensioned fibers! The compression distance needed in response to the lean angle, does not change as width acoss at supporting trunk is reduced. It is the same; so all loss of width is felt by leverage drop and tension increase; because compression area stays the same. Also, in codom, the loss of coutering lean tothe opposite side is usally lost, placing all support load on stem, without the helping couterbalancing of crown. Thus, the house and all the nutrition etc. that feeds it is now divided against itself; is not one contiguous system to support whole, but only individual members. Further complications come in when bark etc. grow on the inside of codm etc. to further push apart. Thus, this house divided has many more chances of failure!

But as pointed out, Live Oaks are proud and tough, superiour species (but also heavier); this also looks like it has no target?


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## Fireaxman (Apr 20, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Dynamically bracing a defect so that it can move is counter indicated generally. Can rods be placed above crack to give joint back lost leveraged tension? Then, perhaps dynamic brace high? Elastic devices held under constant tension lose elasticity, and also strength degrade faster i think.?



Rods are probably a good idea, but I don't have anything big enough to install them on this tree, and no experience installing them. I have a good arborist "Coach" with a lot of cabling experience, but he had to go back to New Hampshire and won't be back until June. Hurricane season usually starts in June, but due to an unuaually mild winter the GOM temperature is already 76 degrees. I'm afraid that portends an early season. Ild like to do what I can as soon as possible.

"Dynamic brace high" I can do. Thanks for warning on loss of elasticity and strength. It's pretty close to home and I drive by it at least once a week, so I can monitor it pretty closely.

My "Coach", by e-mail, echoed Treeseer's advice - prune to reduce loading.



TheTreeSpyder said:


> Other considerations are area 'histories and heights'. Mostly for wind loading appraisal. Have other wind blocking trees, buildings, structures been removed or installed? Is this crown highest around?



"History" and "Height" are stable. No neighboring trees. Only protection is provided by neighboring, 1 story (Ranch style) home and outbuildings, which have been in place for many years. Yes, this crown is the highest around. Also, no trees touching, currently no crown support.




TheTreeSpyder said:


> Don't let thoughts and prescriptions stop at the ground!?



Good thought! I especially like the idea of not watering close to the tree, but making the roots reach out for water. We have a very tight, montmarilonite clay here. Roots really have to struggle for depth. Our best hupe is for Reach. 




TheTreeSpyder said:


> But, a codom or vertical defect that splits that in half, takes more than half the leveraged distance away to tension, which then needs mroe tension area that also takes away from leveraged distance to tension area. The 2 factors together place higher tension on the tensioned fibers! ... Also, in codom, the loss of coutering lean tothe opposite side is usally lost, placing all support load on stem, without the helping couterbalancing of crown. Thus, the house and all the nutrition etc. that feeds it is now divided against itself; .... Further complications come in when bark etc. grow on the inside of codm etc. to further push apart. Thus, this house divided has many more chances of failure!



Yup. That's what I was afraid of. 



TheTreeSpyder said:


> Further complications come in when bark etc. grow on the inside of codm etc. to further push apart.


Should I try to pull the crack back together pretty tight to keep the bark from growing into the crack? 



TheTreeSpyder said:


> But as pointed out, Live Oaks are proud and tough, superiour species (but also heavier); this also looks like it has no target?



Yup. That's our hope. And the closest target is a garage that has been modified into a very highly regarded neighborhood LSU sports den. But it looks like from COG the tree would narrowly miss the LSU den, ... so, bottom line, we'll order the stuff for the cabling. Thanks for the advice. Just didn't want to spend the money for the cabling equipment if you men didn't think it had a chance.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 25, 2006)

*Progress Report*

We had a thunder storm come through with some 20 to 30 mph winds late last week before I could get back to this and the crack at the base opened up another quarter inch. We pulled it back together a half inch with a grip hoist on a 3 part line, installed some temporary supports (5/8 Bull Rope) and thinned the North fork. Hope it will stay together until I get the Tree Save cable.


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## clearance (Apr 25, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> We had a thunder storm come through with some 20 to 30 mph winds late last week before I could get back to this and the crack at the base opened up another quarter inch. We pulled it back together a half inch with a grip hoist on a 3 part line, installed some temporary supports (5/8 Bull Rope) and thinned the North fork. Hope it will stay together until I get the Tree Save cable.


Put it out of its misery, bullet in the head, end the suffering, you would do it for a run over dog. Or screw around, bill away and leave a pos for some future tree guy to deal with. It is doomed, do the right thing, numbers up, tickets punched, next.


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## treeseer (Apr 25, 2006)

That streetside stem needs reduction very soon. Delaying that work (I know you're not paid well for this, but...).

our dog got run over by a car, right before my eyes. Smashed the bumper, rolled under the drive train and lay there wedged while the driver freaked out. I pulled it loose and it ran back to the house to lay on the deck. I laid a blanket over it and was going to let nature take its course. Dog's a pain, cannot teach it to stay out of the road like our other dog does.

wife said no, it's going to the vet. $220 worth of stitches and tlc later it was home and healthier than ever. That was last year. Wife did the right thing.:biggrinbounce2:



and the moderators did the right thing by keeping onetrackminded tree cutters off the Homeowner forum. :deadhorse:


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## OTG BOSTON (Apr 25, 2006)

you need to drastically reduce the top of that tree. It should be cut back to where your knees are in the second picture.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 25, 2006)

treeseer said:


> That streetside stem needs reduction very soon. Delaying that work (I know you're not paid well for this, but...).





OTG BOSTON said:


> you need to drastically reduce the top of that tree.



Gotcha. I'll be back in it Saturday morning. Not paid well? Not paid money, but well paid.


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## clearance (Apr 26, 2006)

treeseer said:


> That streetside stem needs reduction very soon. Delaying that work (I know you're not paid well for this, but...).
> 
> our dog got run over by a car, right before my eyes. Smashed the bumper, rolled under the drive train and lay there wedged while the driver freaked out. I pulled it loose and it ran back to the house to lay on the deck. I laid a blanket over it and was going to let nature take its course. Dog's a pain, cannot teach it to stay out of the road like our other dog does.
> 
> wife said no, it's going to the vet. $220 worth of stitches and tlc later it was home and healthier than ever. That was last year. Wife did the right thing.:biggrinbounce2


Way to go, forked out a couple of hundred bucks and you still have a retarded dog, awesome. Just like the homeowners you talk into letting you fag out thier trees instead of dealing with them once and finally. They still have a pos tree and have payed for it to stay, and then they or the next owner or insurance company will be paying again.


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## Rigger (Apr 26, 2006)

Fireaxman,

I am glad you chose to come to such a place to seek advice most of the guy's here seem to know what their talking about, and advice I am sure you will get...... lot's of it.
Obviously you and the client would like to save this tree IF it is at all possible, that's understandable going by the pics you provided.

_As I am writing this I see you have made a more recent posting:
Gottcha will be back in it Sat.
It appears you have been persueded into a decission to drastically reduceing, something about knee height? 
you quoted two comments reccomending this action urgently._

*STOP....* The most urgent thing to do (should have been done at the outset) is to go at first light and cordon (tape) off and secure the area. At this time it is a known hazard and liability...... Good. Now slow down, the biggest headache is over.

You are seeking advice, the client entrusts you to do your best preferably by preservation, and finaces are minimal if at all. If it is the lack of finances that determins the fate of the tree then so be it. Personaly I feel if the client really cares and want's the tree then they should cough up the $$$$'s to someone who is qualified AND capable of doing this in a safe manner, that would be long lasting. 

Anyhow: this is my way.
I am NOT a certified Arborist... and NEVER will be.
I have however preserved over 100, 500/1000year old oaks in a SAFE and living condition, for ten years the fate of many european national monument trees (denkmalen baum) balanced with my decission. YES i am old school and have the trees 25years later to prove it.
OK cyber police!!! writtin and redin ain't my fortay.... so keep it!!!

First you must consider all possible options open to you, then weigh up the pro's & con's of each, all those options must take into account what the end result would be. Long term *safety* to traffic and property must be your #1 priority, then look at the *preservation* factor, is the end result of your actions likely to preserve this tree for a year or two or last 20+years?.
Then comes the third factor *looks* (can't spell aesthetics), will you be left with an ugly monster coat rack? a piece of modern sculpture? or a half decent tree?

PROPS... in conjunction with thinning, cableing, through rodding, (forget this poncy non-invasive b*&$) get some hardware in this thing, real hardware.
(O'ooooo that should cause a stir).
Now back to the "Props" I am talking pro stuff here, 6" sleeved to 8" oil rig pipe cut to measered lengths should work, strategicly placed concrete pads, inverted "V" formation, painted d/green, etc. etc.
Professionaly done would (does) look very nice, not as expensive as you may think, easy to install, allthough good knowledge and understanding of the physics involved is a must.
I have dabbled around with shock absorbed props and cables, but will save the gory details for another post down the road.

Sorry my mood and writing style is not at it's best tonight, and I really wanted to spend the evening reading posts and profiles, just to get a feel for who's who you see right now the whole tree industry is very divided. I am sure this is enough to rekindle this thread into a roaring fire. In the mean time please don't whack to hard on the tree it's a beauty, and a great opp to show just what tree surgery and preservation is realy all about.

Soon I will be recognized... the hints are there.


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## Rigger (Apr 26, 2006)

Hey I am sorry to come back so soon, but I have just re-read all the posts, this time very carefully and it seems to me that you are indicisive, easily persueded, agrees with everything said, and basically taking on somthing you shouldn't. O'h I give you full marks for effort and trying.

But the way I see it either get the thing down or make a decission to save it proper, I can see a complete hash happening. Some guy's just like to complicate things, what's this about Non-invasive blah... blah... blah, take a look at what you have, a ripped up hazard, and your dillying around with $5 non invasive bungy cords, and whacking off major sections. 
Logic must tell you that no matter what you do up top it all sits on a major basal fracture that WILL deteriate over time. With that in mind it stands to reason that the only safe way to preserve long term is to increase the radius of the support structure, like a broken body just pin it together and use crutches!. Of course total removal as Clearence said is also a logical solution. 

Talking about where to and not to water...... boy o'h boy if some of these tree guy's were as good at getting the job done as they are writing about it you might get somwhere.

Don't take my comments to personal or to heart, I am just being honest and speaking my mind. Instead of working on the tree maybe you should be working on the client.


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## treeseer (Apr 26, 2006)

Rigger, propping is a very good suggestion. The height does make the design tough, but it could be done. Your idea of securing the area is also very good.

No one here said anything about whacking major portions off of it. 2 suggested removal, but we haven't heard about the risk assessment that went into that decision. Their preferred way of dealing with a tree is "finally", with a basal cut. Most owners see trees as assets so they do not jump on this option right away.

Tip reduction is urgent, but cuts could be made in a way that preserves the natural shape of the tree. 

I'd like to see pictures of your preservation work to learn from--got any?


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## OTG BOSTON (Apr 26, 2006)

Rigger said:


> Fireaxman,
> 
> 
> Anyhow: this is my way.
> ...


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## treeseer (Apr 26, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> You know so much about trees but you won't take the time to pass a simple certification exam?? :jester:
> 
> The term "tree surgery" went out with cavity fills, and wound painting.
> .



OTG I agree about the test; should be a breeze for an experienced pro, and the cost is small.

But "tree surgery" is still an accurate term. If it connotes images of butchery in your brain, that's.....in your brain, not everyone's.

btw it's a myth to say that filling cavities and painting wounds is always wrong, as it is a myth to say the opposite. They may be right less than 1% of the time, but still they have not all "went out"


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## OTG BOSTON (Apr 26, 2006)

I must admit that I was trying to stir the pot. It gets under my skin when non-certified guys try to claim, they don't need it or want it. Get it first then you can call it whatever you want.

I realize that paint and cavity fills have a place. We paint wounds when emergency pruning has to be done on our historic elm trees (to deter those pesky, disease carrying, elm beetles)

Surgery refers to the medical field. Although tree surgery may be an accepted term, Arboriculture is more proper..................I never ment to infer that anyone was a hack.

I guess we'll have to wait to hear back from our friend to see of he put up an erector set, or tried to correct the problem through judicious pruning.


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## clearance (Apr 26, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I'll call it a good thing.
> 
> But the reality is that the 'cert' is a very basic test and does not even come close


The truth, how freaking true that is, I love it when people can admit it really is no garauntee of competence. When in doubt.......


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## Rigger (Apr 26, 2006)

OTG BOSTON

A'h a "Tree Warden" back in the UK we called em "TPO" officers, (SOME of them make a nice snack!), and I get real hungry when their on the menu, especialy when covered in ISA Cert dressing. 

_OTG BOSTON> I must admit that I was trying to stir the pot._
Well don't "TRY" ..... not with me anyhow. 

_OTG BOSTON> It gets under my skin when non-certified guys try to claim, they don't need it or want it._ 
Well it get's under MY skin when certified guy's try to claim that I DO need it, should get it, truth is I DON'T need it and DON'T want it!!!

_OTG BOSTON> Get it first then you can call it whatever you want._
H'uh... Give them my time and $$$'s first then open my eye's. 

_OTG BOSTON> You know so much about trees but you won't take the time to pass a simple certification exam??_
What the hell for.... It's just a trade union, for what it's worth you push it and I'll pull it, in my op. it ain't worth the paper it's written on. I suspect you are in a position that dishes out contract work and no doubt you stipulate that the bid is only open to certified arborists....right.
So in effect your saying that the little 65year old lady and the fourteen year old kids that are cert. arb. can bid on your contract but a non cert. person like myself can't..... get real. 
I have often wondered how long it will be before a local authority gets plonked with a trade discrimination suit. 

_OTG BOSTON> You keep it old school.....................I'll keep it real._
Well that's fine.......as long as you know what real is!!!!

_OTG BOSTON> I guess we'll have to wait to hear back from our friend to see of he put up an erector set, or tried to correct the problem through judicious pruning._
Well how about a little of both? is that not an option you consider? Obviosly your mind is not open enough.


NOW I suggest we both let it go and walk away from this, but if you wish to continue stirring the pot I feel it would be better to start another thread OR take it private. I am sure we are both going to get ticketed by the cyber police anyway.

To all others:
I am relatively new here on these forums and it seems I have jumped right into the muck, I do come over as a salty old grouch, rough, gruff and tough, but in reality I am as soft as a baby's bottom. I appologize to all who are offended, however it does make interesting reading to watch two individuals stand by their conviction.

Have a nice interesting day.


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## treeseer (Apr 26, 2006)

Rigger said:


> H'uh... Give them my time and $$$'s


 $125 and three hours; much less than three really, depending on your expertise.  



> I suspect you are in a position that dishes out contract work and no doubt you stipulate that the bid is only open to certified arborists....right.


 It's not always unethical to bid on work that you consult on. If all others who make the grade can also bid, that may be fair. The city of Raleigh requires certification, and there are dozens nearby who are eligible to bid. not a closed shop by any means.



> Well how about a little of both? is that not an option you consider? Obviosly your mind is not open enough.


So far you've accused OTG of fraud and closed-mindedness. Seems like a good place to stop. I suspect OTG thought it goes without saying that pruning should always be considered in the cabling process



> in reality I am as soft as a baby's bottom.


I did not need to know that. :fart:


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## Rigger (Apr 26, 2006)

treeseer

_treeseer> The city of Raleigh requires certification, and there are dozens nearby who are eligible to bid. not a closed shop by any means._
Sorry I must dissagree, once the term certified/certification is used it becomes a closed shop to all those NOT certified does it not? 
We all know that the certification required is that of the ISA, so in effect the city of Raleigh will ONLY except bids from ISA certified Members.... correct?
That's a closed Shop!!!!! by anyones deffinition!!

_treeseer> So far you've accused OTG of fraud and closed-mindedness._
Would you mind pointing out to me where you feel I have accused OTG of fraud. Please read my wording carefully before answering.

Let me make it clear, I have no problem with ISA members in general, in fact one of my former employees is at the top in the UK ISA. I have many collegues that are and many that are not members, just don't preach it to me, why is it that so many cert. arb's. look down on those who choose not to join.
Can't you see that the ISA is trying to unionize a whole Industry with a meaningless certificate as bait. So for me to bid on a contract in Raleigh I would have to Join the ISA and get certified! H'mmm I would rather put in my $125 and three hours toward educating the city of Raleigh to the facts of their certification stipulation.

OK "meaningless" maybe debatable. 

Yes I agree it does seem like a good place to stop!


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## OTG BOSTON (Apr 26, 2006)

Obviously I touched on a good subject. I don't care either way what you do professionally. I do what works for me. 

I am very open-minded to new and unproven techniques, and I am always up for a descussion to come up with the best solution.

If your gonna try and make a snack outta me better bring some friends.

Actually forget about the Certification try hooked on phonics.

Cheers!


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## treeseer (Apr 26, 2006)

Rigger said:


> the ISA is trying to unionize a whole Industry with a meaningless certificate as bait. So for me to bid on a contract in Raleigh I would have to Join the ISA and get certified!
> OK "meaningless" maybe debatable.


 there is meaning to the test; ask lumberjack or others who have recently passed it. Thank you for catching your error. 

One more: You do not have to be an ISA member to be certified.

Fireaxman, let us know how it goes, ok? Thanks for posting the pics and all.


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## Treeman14 (Apr 26, 2006)

I have to reiterate my objection to pruning this tree in order to "lighten" the load. I believe this is a short-sighted, ill-conceived attempt to correct a non-existent problem. This tree was damaged by a one-time, extraordinary event (presumably an unusually high gust of wind) and has been standing on its own for well over six months now. This talk of "drastic reduction" and the implied urgency is appalling. 

Install the cables and rods as a _supplemental_ support system. Good.

But removing living tissue and leaves(food factories) will only serve to starve the tree and hasten its demise. :bang:


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## Fireaxman (Apr 26, 2006)

Treeman14 said:


> I have to reiterate my objection to pruning this tree in order to "lighten" the load. I believe this is a short-sighted, ill-conceived attempt to correct a non-existent problem. This tree was damaged by a one-time, extraordinary event (presumably an unusually high gust of wind) and has been standing on its own for well over six months now. This talk of "drastic reduction" and the implied urgency is appalling.
> 
> Install the cables and rods as a _supplemental_ support system. Good.
> 
> But removing living tissue and leaves(food factories) will only serve to starve the tree and hasten its demise.



Thanks, Treeman, for your advice. It's good advice, well considered, I have not forgotten it. Your advice is certainly tempering my tampering. But while the original damage was done by Katrina, the crack opened up another 1/2 inch before I did any pruning from the fairly common winds of a normal spring thunderstorm. There is so much weight against the split that I could not pull it back together with about 1000 lbs of pull in a 3 part line. I have to think some judicious pruning is necessary. But I won't cut it "where [my] knees are". A compromise is in order.



Rigger said:


> ...it seems to me that you are indicisive, easily persueded, agrees with everything said, and basically taking on somthing you shouldn't.:



Nope. I have decided to try and save this tree (against some advice) and I am investing my time at no charge to do it. Clearance will not find me "easily persueded" to do otherwise, even though it would be a lot easier to just put it on the ground than to try and save it. Clearance proposed an analogy of a dog hit by a car. Aside from the homeowner's emotional attachment (which is well worth considering), I can replace even a well trained dog in about 12 months to 2 years. This tree would take over 150 years (I am guessing) to replace. That alone makes it worth a day or two of work, since it poses little risk to human safety. If I fail, the homeowner is out about $450 for cabling equipment. I am out a few hours for messing around with cabling. The pruning would have had to be done for safe removal anyway.

"... basically taking on something _ shouldn't" ? Maybe. That's why this is in the "Arborist 101" thread and not in the "Commercial" thread. But I expect to grow through challenge. And I am doing my homework.



Rigger said:



... and your dillying around with $5 non invasive bungy cords, and whacking off major sections.:

Click to expand...


No. Treeseer's comment about $5.00 "BMP's" referred to the ISA Best Management Practices for Cabling brochure, which I have studied carefully, and which by the way now cost $7. The "$5 non invasive bungy cords" you mistakenly believe we were refering to are actually $432.60 worth of High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (HMWPe) fiber rope with a tensile strength of 20,000 lbs. and a couple of similarly rated support slings with anti-abrasion covers. You can find the details in the '06 Sherrill catalog page 94. I am informed by Tom Duffy at Sherrill that the strength of that HMWPe exceeds the strength of the steel cable previously favored for cable installations by professional arborists.



Rigger said:



...Logic must tell you that no matter what you do up top it all sits on a major basal fracture that WILL deteriate over time.:

Click to expand...


I understand, and the homeowner has been informed, that the cabling is not a permanent fix, and that the cables will have to be maintained, and that another Katrina would very likely bring all our efforts to naught. The homeowner told me "If there is a chance we can just keep it together for my lifetime I would be very grateful". I think she is maybe between 55 and 60. If we can get 5 or 10 more years of shade and beauty out of the tree I'll figure my time well spent. Actually, from what I am learning on this about what can and cannot be done, and the pleasure of climbing around in a grand old tree, and the fellowship of some good country people, I'm content regardless of the outcome._


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## Fireaxman (Apr 26, 2006)

By the way, you will find me pretty quick to agree to suggestions from TreeSpyder, treeseer, Okietreedude, Skwerl, John Paul Sanborn, and a few others because I have been studying their posts for about a year now and they have won my confidence. The men who worked for me on production platforms offshore for 25 years would have found it amusing that I have become so "easily persueded" in my retirement. But I made a good career and a comfortable retirement out of being able to recognize and take good advice. 

OTG and Rigger - when good advisors disagree, it's particularly interesting. I usually look for the solution somewhere in between their arguments. I think by the very nature of debate we tend to extremes. So Thanks for your arguments. I AM listening.


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## clearance (Apr 27, 2006)

I will not forget the time we went to clean up and finally cut down a poplar city tree that some arborist had cabled years before. I almost chucked a top into the chipper before I saw the eye and piece of broken cable. If you cable a compromised tree thats all for you, but like you say Fireman, it will have to be maintained for its life. How are the future owners of the home to know this? One day these trees will have to be dealt with by someone, perhaps a big nasty suprise will lie in wait for them, I wonder. In the city of Surrey, BC, city arborists get treeguys to make "wildlife trees", good idea, these trees provide a home for bugs, that birds eat, its all good. But over time these man made snags need to be cut down because some of them are leaning towards houses, trails and playing fields. However they seem to have lost all track and count of these potentially fatal trees. People come and go, a tree that was stripped up 40', topped and girdled to make the "wildlife tree" back in '89 is forgotten now. So with cabled trees, the cables that hold the pos together are likely to be forgotten, they can rust, stress fracture etc. oh, well. Anyone of you cabling advocates care to educate me as to how this is unlikely?


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## Treeman14 (Apr 27, 2006)

*Natmp*

The North American Tree Monitoring Program. 

"NATMP is a program that mails scheduled notification to property owners as a reminder to get their tree(s) with mechanical systems installed (lightning protection or support), inspected by an experienced or certified arborist. The American National Standards Institiute (ANSI) A300 standard suggests periodic inspection by an experienced professional to check for such things as tree and cable integrity, excessive tension, improper positioning and abnormal wear. Contracting for such inspection is the tree owners responsibility and will be at their expense unless otherwise stated in writing..."

This program provides periodic notification to the owner for 12 years.

The forms are available from Sherrill.

Clearance, you're comparing a poplar to a live oak?


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## clearance (Apr 27, 2006)

Thats great for 12 years I guess, after that? Like I said earlier somebody or some insurance co will be paying again. Never compared an oak to a poplar, poplars are weak trees, but some arborist cabled it anyways, thats arborists for you. If it needs to be cabled it needs to be cut down, by "dealing" with it by cabling it you are just putting off the end for a while longer. Whatever, you get paid to cable it, someone else gets paid to buck it off the roof in chunks in a few years, its all good. Thats what it is really about, keeping p.o.s. trees around for years, so you can bill and bill. Job preservation, you first, not the customer.


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## Treeman14 (Apr 27, 2006)

clearance said:


> Thats great for 12 years I guess, after that? Like I said earlier somebody or some insurance co will be paying again. Never compared an oak to a poplar, poplars are weak trees, but some arborist cabled it anyways, thats arborists for you. If it needs to be cabled it needs to be cut down, by "dealing" with it by cabling it you are just putting off the end for a while longer. Whatever, you get paid to cable it, someone else gets paid to buck it off the roof in chunks in a few years, its all good. Thats what it is really about, keeping p.o.s. trees around for years, so you can bill and bill. Job preservation, you first, not the customer.



May I suggest you try therapy. You've got some serious problems that you need to deal with. I'm sure you'll interpret that as a personal attack, but I'm genuinely concerned for your welfare. Nobody should go through life being so cynical. Do you have any friends? 

If you actually READ his posts, he's doing this work for cost, NOT to make money but to help the tree and the owner and possibly to learn something too.


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## clearance (Apr 27, 2006)

I have read the mans posts, I offered a worthwhile alternative. In regards to therapy, after a tree kills someone when it should have been cut down, do you think the person who was negligent should get some therapy? Do you even see my point of view? I have had people thank me for cutting down trees that scared them. I have seen trees on houses a few times, trees that anyone but a retard (or some ISA arborists) would have cut down first. I have been working for a city that employs ISA arborists and went to cut down trees that posed no threat for them while people were begging us to cut down the obviuos hazard trees that were not on the list. I am cynical of the incompetence I see out there, the "save the p.o.s. no matter what" crowd that make some of the decisions. I am happy of the work I do now, preventing trees from blowing down into creeks, I am doing a good thing, in a good place, no treehuggers, no ISA people around. The advice to get therapy/you need help is an old hat tactic to change the subject and deflect the truth, nice try, I advise you to quit scamming people and start removing more trees instead of saving them.


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## trevmcrev (Apr 27, 2006)

clearance said:


> Thats what it is really about, keeping p.o.s. trees around for years, so you can bill and bill. Job preservation, you first, not the customer.



Clearance, i see where your coming from, and often i will advise a customer than when removal is inevitable within a few years to do it now, so they can replant now and have something on its way in the time that they would have hung on to some decrepid old tree.

But is not as black & white as you suggest in terms of "you first, not the customer" There are plenty of customers out there that truly LOVE thier trees and will happily spend whatever they have to to keep that tree for 1, a few, 5 or mabye 10 years longer.

Trev


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## treeseer (Apr 27, 2006)

"I have to reiterate my objection to pruning this tree in order to "lighten" the load. I believe this is a short-sighted, ill-conceived attempt to correct a non-existent problem."

Brett, I suggest that you look at the picture again. that lead is super-heavy and sprawling. From the BMP's (someone who considers himself an authority thought this was an acronym for a product? :taped: that's kind of funny, and scary in a way) page 3:

"Pruning may remove structural defects or *lighten the load* on tree parts with high risk of failure. On larger and mature trees, the combination of pruning and a support system may reduce the risk of failure."

From the Pruning BMP's page 12: "...limbs can be reduced to balance the canopy, provide clearance, or reduce likelihood of breakage on limbs with defects...Reducing or thinning should be considered if cabling would be performed."

Brett when you look at that end you can see that the tips are folded in on each other due to the change in lean. Those leaves don't get the sun they used to, so they don't make food like they did, so they are more exendable than they were. Is it better to let those leaves shade out and shed?

You could take off 10-15% from that end, all small diameter cuts, and have it look better than it does now without costing the tree vital food. You've got good reason for fear when you hear someone say they want to "lighten the load" on a tree--too often that has lead to topping. Proper thinning and reduction, which this tree badly needs, are different.

Don't fear arboriculture.


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## Plant Manager (Apr 27, 2006)

*Live Oak*

Fireaxman

I agree with a previous poster (rigger). Real hardware and real proping could do the trick. 

I would also like for you to leave the crown alone. Dont worry about trying to close the gap

If you do get it properly reinforced mulch the tree and get the cars away from it I'm sure those old rides are leaking at least one fluid 
Good luck sorting through all the nonsense and misinformation.


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## treeseer (Apr 27, 2006)

Plant Manager said:


> get the cars away from it I'm sure those old rides are leaking at least one fluid
> Good luck sorting through all the nonsense and misinformation.



Good tip on the cars leaking. As for misinformation, look to the BMP's. I disagree with some stuff in there, but I'm not going against the Standards and BMP's and simple physics without a really good reason. What experience does PHM have to disagree with thinning shaded out branches? 

Those who think they need no reasoning or reference but only their own opinion are legends in their own minds. Carly Simon:

"But you're a legend in your own time
A hero in the footlights
Playin' tunes to fit your rhyme
But a legends only a lonely boy
When he goes home alone.


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## Lumberjacked (Apr 27, 2006)

That is a very nice tree they have there and should defiantly tried to be saved. I agree with some of you that this tree should not be cabled but not for invasive reasons. That tree is _huge_ and unless you plan on filling the canopy with numerous cables, one cable will just not cut it. All the weight of those leaders is way past the center point and if you expect a couple of cables to hold that much weight that far out on the limbs I believe you are sadly mistaken. I forgot who mentioned it but bracing the leaders with pipe from the underside it your best option, instead of the weight pulling the cables it will be pushing on the pipe with is a much better option. We have no live oak here in NY, but wont they send out a lot of water sprouts if heavily pruned?? Which could be even worse then your current situation due to the added weight. I know some would still say take it down, but given the age added aesthetics that the tree adds to the property I would hope you and your customers would want to prolong its life as long as possible.


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## clearance (Apr 27, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> Clearance, i see where your coming from, and often i will advise a customer than when removal is inevitable within a few years to do it now, so they can replant now and have something on its way in the time that they would have hung on to some decrepid old tree.
> 
> But is not as black & white as you suggest in terms of "you first, not the customer" There are plenty of customers out there that truly LOVE thier trees and will happily spend whatever they have to to keep that tree for 1, a few, 5 or mabye 10 years longer.
> 
> Trev


OK, Trev, what you say makes sense, reasonable words, thanks.


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## Rigger (Apr 27, 2006)

I propose we all take a deep breath, step back, and take a fresh attitude.
I have seen several major contadrictions within the message/s from the same author/s, I tried to contribute and offer sound, proven proffessional advice based on many years experience, I was doing fine untill OTG BOSTON piped-in with his unprovocked comments (message #18), they were un-necessary and un-warrented, thats when all this got out of hand and way of topic. It is obvious that this thread has gone beyond proffessional disagreeancees into personal attacks.
Don't knock me for my choice of staying ISA free, Don't push or preach it to me, I am old school due to my age but I am fully familiar with the new school as well, I try to keep as informed as possible without purchaseing ISA published materials (that no doubt makes me un-educated, un-informed, unproffessional & outdated to some). 

Fireaxman;
I have proposed a possible solution (props), albeit not in it's entirity that has not been discused much, that's probably because it is unusual and unfamiliar to most of the contributors here. It is an "OPTION" and only an option, I do not proclaim it to be your only option, however I am of the strong belief that it warrents a good deal of serious consideration in regards to the preservation of this tree, in which I presume is your goal, with minimal finances. However it appears you are allready well advanced with another direction, I wish you luck and success in this endeavor.

I am all for saving this grand old tree (based on the pics), and I have done my share of free community service to trees as well, I understand your position.
My life in the tree industry has revolved around the preservation (if possible) of very old historic trees (mostly Oak). Providing this can be achieved in a safe, long term, aesthetically appealing way. This is not a situation that appears in the everyday operations of the average arborist or tree surgeon.
For ten years+ I contracted troughout Germany, UK, Ausria, France, consulting and preserving Old historic trees (mainly for gov. agency's), many of these were nothing more than hollow hulks in excess of 500years old. In most of these the trunks of the trees were not able to withhold the weight of the lateral limbs 3' dia. 4000lb.+ we found that cableing alone (with "Judicial" "selective" "thinning" "prunning" "lightening" "shortening" "reduction" etc.etc.) just did not offer the security and longevity our clients required. Some even required prior preparation a year or two in advance ie' (let me think?) "light Judicial Prunning" and a deep root prep. followed by the main operation of tree retention in a safe manner, then would come the "nachbehandlung" aftercare program.

Props were commonly used in certain situations and not only offered vertical support but in an inverted "V" configeration it offered a degree of lateral suport in wind, now don't get me wrong to much rigitity is not good, hence my hint toward shock absorbed cables and props. 
I don't want to turn this into a complicated "erector set lesson" I am telling you this becuase IT HAS BEEN DONE, it works, it's your safest option besides removal, this tree is a typical and worthy candidate. The idea of proping conjers up an image that does not appear to be appealing, on the contrary if done right it looks good, real good, not overpowering but obvious it sort of adds to the nostalgia and character of the tree. 
O'h sure many will scoff and pick and pull at the idea, mostly by the "new school" or those who are not familiar or experienced with this option, "closed mindedness" is another ailment that will restict ones options, but trust me I know what I am talking about, despite the fact that others feel otherwise. Of course I did not mean to suggest or imply that a $5/7 ISA's BMP was a cableing system, I am fully versed in the modern "non-invasive" systems, I do agree I did make a snyed remark about bungy cords in my haste. 

NOW, I have a very important statement to clear up, "treeseer" has publicly stated that I have accused "OTG BOSTN" of Fraud! (message #24) so far he has not responded to my request for an explanation (message #25). Accuseing someone of fraud is a lot different than accusing someone of closed-mindedness in which I admit to. Sir I await your public explanation!!


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## treeseer (Apr 27, 2006)

Ok Rigs, here it is. When you said, "I suspect you are in a position that dishes out contract work and no doubt you stipulate that the bid is only open to certified arborists....right."

I (mis?)took that to mean OTG would have been be writing specs that favored himself. I think it's already been answered that when a city requires a certified arborist to do or at least supervise the work, that's not dirty dealin, so I publicly apologize for the fraud comment. so there we both admit to something.

"I am fully familiar with the new school as well, I try to keep as informed as possible without purchaseing ISA published materials (that no doubt makes me un-educated, un-informed, unproffessional & outdated to some)."

well it does not make you any smarter; I'd buy a book published by the KKK if it had info I needed to know. Where's that avoidance come from; were you once wronged by a woman named LISA?

Propping is an underused support strategy; it's not even mentioned in the Support BMP's. It'd be cool to get more publicity for propping by showing off some of your work..Got any pictures/links/writeups?


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## Rigger (Apr 27, 2006)

treeseer

Thank you for your explanation, hopefully we can have a little more trust and respect for each other now.

I agree it does not make me any smarter, but I think I said I did not purchase from the ISA, I do try to read and stay informed. I will admit I am not as informed as I could be, life changes, goals change, everyday issues, one does not have the spunk and gusto of a young whipper snapper.
I have loved the tree Industry, and will continue to do my own little thing in my own little part of the world for as long as I can.
It is very clear to me that I could have played my cards better and without a doubt been out on the lecture circuit, most probably leaning toward the nostalgic 
evolution (the way it was and is now) how we got here sort of stuff, how can one spend over 42 years in a trade such as this without being able to captivate & intrigue an audience for a few hours.

You have asked twice now for pics\lit etc. concerning Installation of Props. I will cover that as soon as possible, in fact I have been working on a very lengthy bio, but one minuet I am being ridiculed as an old school idiot who does not know the difference between a ISA BMP and a cable!! Now I am being asked for pics and litrature so others may learn from it, it sort of rocks me around and I have been real sick with flu? for three day's as it is. 

I think by my writings it is obvious to the intelligent that I've been around, I'm not stupid or a hack cowboy.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that propping is underused, it's more a case of the suitable circumstances and candidates don't often arise, and heaven forbid if any standards were formulated and published, we'd have every leaning tree from here to kingdom come propped.

I have just written over two paragraphs about my reason's for being so anti ISA, Then deleted it prior to posting this: ...<cut>. 
That's all I want to say on the subject I hope that's enough. Please don't push it any further!


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## Fireaxman (Apr 27, 2006)

I actually had and have continued to give a lot of thought to propping. The height of the limbs have been my main deterrent. I originally envisioned it would take an A-frame to do the job, but Rigger's suggestion of a 6" pipe inside an 8" pipe, maintaining flexibility, not trying to be too rigid, with a "V" of angle iron supporting the limb perhaps, cemented in the ground and telescoped up to the limb before welding in place, makes a lot of sense to me.

"Fireax" is an offshore nickname for a cutting torch. I started my career as a welder. Got fire. Got steel. Got welder. Just need time.

Rigger, I've misplaced my pipe fitter's handbook. Do you know what ID matches OD? Will 6" schedule 80 go inside 8" schedule 80, or 40?


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## Plant Manager (Apr 27, 2006)

*Live oak*

Dear Fireaxman

I wish you well and success as you venture out on this journy. Since you have welding experience you should be able to teach (inform) the rest of us as to your success. Ihave no pictures or experience installing such props only reading about it. ("danger Will Robinson danger"...) Yet after viewing the pics ("even more danger") I would guess 4 maybe 5 cables. YES SORRY the (Old School) static cable 3/8 inch 3/4" eyenutsis needed invasive.. YES DEFINATLY. the alternative rubber bands wont cut it and hopefully treeseer wont cut the real cable either .
Good luck


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## Fireaxman (Apr 27, 2006)

clearance said:


> I will not forget the time we went to clean up and finally cut down a poplar city tree that some arborist had cabled years before. I almost chucked a top into the chipper before I saw the eye and piece of broken cable. ... One day these trees will have to be dealt with by someone, perhaps a big nasty suprise will lie in wait for them, I wonder.



One of the nice things about the "Non-Invasive" system is that everything stays on the outside, highly visible. No drilling or tapping, no interior steel. If the home owner does not maintain, the system disintegrates and the tree falls down. Nobody's fault but the homeowner, who has been informed of the possible consequences.

It was wisely suggested by PM that I re-evaluate the risk, the "Targets". I wouldn't try to save the tree if it posed even a moderate risk to the homeowners or general public. As it is, the only thing at risk is the old Ford (which by the way was a show car until a few years ago, very tight, no leaks, still runs great). Some of you may have seen what looks like a road on the South side of the tree and thought it may be threatened by the tree. It is a private drive, and it is well outside the drip line of the tree. The only buildings around are a shed and a garage that has been converted to a sports den. They are on the tension side of the tree's natural support system, and everything I study assures me the compression side will fail first. The COG is heavily to the compression side, away from the buildings, and toward an open field. The only thing at risk is a mockingbird nest in the South fork.

The tree is stable in normal weather situations. The husband and wife who live there (children grown and living out of state) have been aware of the risk in heavy weather for a long time and they are in the habit of staying away from the tree in threatening weather.

Judiceous pruning plus a cable or two plus some supporting iron sounds like a good combination. Man. This started out to be just an afternoon spent removing Katrina hangers from a nice tree. No good deed goes unpunished. Or maybe, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62)


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## Fireaxman (Apr 27, 2006)

Rigger said:


> I have proposed a possible solution (props), albeit not in it's entirity that has not been discused much, that's probably because it is unusual and unfamiliar to most of the contributors here. [\QUOTE]
> 
> Rigger, some picts or "Best Management Practices" really would be a help if you know of any. "Inverted V" ???
> 
> Plant Manager - What have you read? Where?


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## Rigger (Apr 28, 2006)

Fireaxman

I am sorry I can't help you with Pipe ID's & OD's I just used the idea of Oil rig pipe because we are here in the states and most are familier with that, to be honest I had never heard the term oil rig pipe untill I was here. We just used various dia. steel pipe according to the situation. Let me stress I have not propped a tree here in the states (I don't think they are different), the work I am refering to was carried out over twenty years ago. However the concept is by no means outdated nor should it be regarded as old school. My only concern here is to give the tree a good chance of long term survival in a safe condition whilst at the same time maintaining a healthy good looking tree. That is your goal as well. The problem here on the forums is the fact that 90% of the advice comes from the printed word, the more one writes the more one puts his head in the noose, held at the ready by armchair arborists.

OK, I hope I read & understand your message correct. The height should not be a factor it was not for us (well within reason that is), as for a piece of "v" or angle iron to support the limb, No I think you would do better with a half dia. craddle, in your location you must antisipate future high winds. A dual prop leading up to each side of this cradle (hence the inverted "V" = ^) would offer more support for lateral movement. Placement is the critical factor, the base placement/s, angle of prop/s and support cradle point are all equally critical. I would use a little $10 laser to sight it all up, you can get a cheap one that would also give you precise measurements that would be handy for giving you your pipe lengths. Either way the support point will grow into the limb. AAA"hhhh invasive attachment, get over it, trees have been invaded with wounds long befor man and survived, you have got to get away from that written word and think outside the box and use your own observations.

Non invasisve histeria, One can easily find examples of wounds manmade and natural whereby the trees are healthy and safe 10/20/30/ even 100 years later with no detrimental effects, we have all seen pics of iron objects sticking out of trees, from bicycle frames to vehicles, pipes, old tools, shrapnal, and on and on.
Fireaxman, I am catching a lot of flack here on behalf of you and this tree, I hope it is worthwhile?

Once you have determined the base/s and cradle points you must consider how you will attach the props (pipes), we welded (had welded) fixtures similar to those seen on the ends of hydraulic rams they worked for us and looked pretty darn proffessional. We sank the top of the concrete base pads 3-4" under the surface for stability (more flack - root zone). I would go at least 3'x 3' and two deep on them 18cubic feet. pre paint props to psychedelic bright pink and dab on some purple spots so they stick out!!!! 

And I am wasteing my time.

--------------
Fireaxman 
I can't help you with Pipe ID's & OD's, schedule this & that!! 
Pics neither 
BMP's - for propping don't exist, according to "treeseer" and I believe him. (not enough of a market to make $$'s on)
Inverted "V" is exactly what it suggests. = "^" = prop configuration.
I cannot (timewise), and will not (proffessionaly wise) offer more on this topic.
--------------


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## Pcoz88 (Apr 28, 2006)

*6" and 8" pipe sch 80*

6" sch 80 inch will fit in to 8" sch80 pipe.I ck my fitters book.The outside for sch 80 6" is 6.625 and 8" sch 80 i. d. is 7.625.:yoyo: :greenchainsaw: :blob5:


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## Fireaxman (May 2, 2006)

Pcoz88 said:


> 6" sch 80 inch will fit in to 8" sch80 pipe.I ck my fitters book.The outside for sch 80 6" is 6.625 and 8" sch 80 i. d. is 7.625



Just right. 1/2 inch crack? No problem. Weld up "Anything but the crack of dawn or a broken heart."

My temporary "Cabling" with double braid 5/8 bull rope held up well through a weekend of high winds and thunder storms. The real stuff should arrive from Sherrill tomorrow.

There's hope. 

Help me pray for no hurricane this summer. It don't look good. Gulf water temps are already above 76 degrees.

Thanks for the time and advice, Rigger. And, Illigitimie Non Vu Corundum, or something like that (I made a "D" in Latin).


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 2, 2006)

i thought 'props' was a good idea; kinda support counter-intuitively to the conversation flow - from the opposite direction than we were looking. Just looked a little hard to apply here, stably. Looking at having a favorable low width and weight to height strategy for props, seems prohibitive; so design would have to lend to other mechanics.

i also have noticed how props can change the water route though.


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## treeseer (May 2, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Looking at having a favorable low width and weight to height strategy for props, seems prohibitive; so design would have to lend to other mechanics.


 I totally agree.  



> i also have noticed how props can change the water route though.



I've seen the water run down the pipe instead of running down the trunk. This seems more like a positive than a negative.


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## stihlatit (May 2, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> By the way, you will find me pretty quick to agree to suggestions from TreeSpyder, treeseer, Okietreedude, Skwerl, John Paul Sanborn, and a few others because I have been studying their posts for about a year now and they have won my confidence. The men who worked for me on production platforms offshore for 25 years would have found it amusing that I have become so "easily persueded" in my retirement. But I made a good career and a comfortable retirement out of being able to recognize and take good advice.
> 
> OTG and Rigger - when good advisors disagree, it's particularly interesting. I usually look for the solution somewhere in between their arguments. I think by the very nature of debate we tend to extremes. So Thanks for your arguments. I AM listening.



Well said and a good quote to live by. Good luck in saving this magnificent tree Fireaxeman.


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## Fireaxman (May 4, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> i thought 'props' was a good idea; kinda support counter-intuitively to the conversation flow - from the opposite direction than we were looking. Just looked a little hard to apply here, stably. Looking at having a favorable low width and weight to height strategy for props, seems prohibitive; so design would have to lend to other mechanics.




I also discarded my first thought about props because of the height of the branches. When Rigger brought it back to mind it occurred to me the height might not be all bad. 10 feet of pipe inside pipe (6" inside 8") would probably provide some pretty good support (the laminate, seal welded at top and bottom, would actually be stiffer than just a single pipe) and any retained flexibility might encourage the tree to more heavily buttress itself at the trunk.

I'm actually thinking "Keep it Simple, Stupid"; just single verticle supports of 6" inside 8" rather than an "A" frame, plus the cabling, and maybe some rodding. I think it might be worth trying. If the pipe laminate takes a permanent bend, well, back to the drawing board. But our offshore platforms are essentially pipe in pipe; "Guyed Tower" platforms are actually cabled, and some of them are in 2000 feet of water. They flex enough to make some people sea sick, but (most of them) survive hurricane force winds. Katrina got several of them, but She was the exceptional storm.

I need to sell it to the homeowner though. They weren't too excited about steel posts holding up their live oak, and they were really pleased that the tree made it through the last round of thunderstorms on the strength of the temporary (rope) cabling. Their first response was "Wont ropes be enough?". I don't think they have a real good grip on just how much weight and leverage is involved.

Got the stuff from Sherrill today for the cabling. I'll be on it Saturday morning, weather permitting. 

stihlatit - Thanks!


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 4, 2006)

treeseer said:


> I've seen the water run down the pipe instead of running down the trunk. This seems more like a positive than a negative.



Good Point; most of my prop observations are on low branches, carrying water out wide, then prop interferes with that trail; to deposit water closer than if not interfered with. But, i guess if propped branches were pointing up, then the water trail back towards trunk could then just as well be interrupted and trailed to ground farther from trunk.


Now; that could lend to possibilities that a rope swing, climbing rope, hanging plant etc. could do same IMLHO. Whereby, if placed on branch carrying water away from trunk, could then trail water closer to trunk. But, if the water was running a slant back towards trunk, and rope, chain etc. interfered with that trail and could then deliver water farther from trunk?


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## treeseer (May 4, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Now; that could lend to possibilities that a rope swing, climbing rope, hanging plant etc. could do same IMLHO.


IMLHO In my --laughingly? lovingly? ludicrously?--humble opinion, you are off on a tangent here KC. <5% of total moisture is not so big a factor eh?

Fireax has the cabling gear and the BMP instructions, let's see what kind of arboricultural magic he creates. Tall stepladder and long polepruner could do the tip reduction/thinning pruning job. Easier working from the outside in on that leaning trunk.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 4, 2006)

Umm, i was thinking Lowly or Lil' Humble Opinion.:yoyo: 

On the rest, just brainstorming while absorbing the implications of what is stated and what to observe next!


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## Fireaxman (May 5, 2006)

treeseer said:


> ... Tall stepladder and long polepruner could do the tip reduction/thinning pruning job. Easier working from the outside in on that leaning trunk.



Ooops! I was about to fire up the 200t from ropes. Am I thinking too drastic on the pruning, in spite of the worthy cautions I have been contemplating from Treeman14?

I was going to cut the heavy limbs away from the garage / sports den, to lighten the South fork and move COG even further away from the garage, and then take off all crossing limbs and most of the stuff under the main canopy (where the dead sticks indicate those branches are not recieving much light anyway).

Got good pole pruner (Jameson poles, Marvin head). Got good step ladder. Thanks for shifting my focus. I'll get what I can with those tools first and then see what else needs to be done.

I really like what I see about this "TreeSave" stuff, now that I have some of it in my hands. Light, flexible, easy to splice and work with, 20,000 lb tensile as opposed to 15,400 for premium 7 strand steel cable; but, yes, expensive. Has anybody got any experience with it?


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## Fireaxman (May 5, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> ... just brainstorming while absorbing the implications of what is stated and what to observe next!



"Single Tree Water Theory" makes a lot of sense. In (my) memoriam teneo.


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## treeseer (May 5, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> Got good pole pruner (Jameson poles, Marvin head). Got good step ladder. Thanks for shifting my focus. I'll get what I can with those tools first and then see what else needs to be done.


Got the right idea now. Save the 200t for the big wood--maybe on the next tree. Also, crawling through that crown would damage the part of the tree that you want to keep.


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## Fireaxman (May 5, 2006)

*Treeseer - Thanks for the help.*

I go back to work on the live oak tomorrow morning, so tonight I took an opportunity to review a 4 part PM you sent me back in November on restoring storm damaged trees. Really Good Stuff. Between you and TheTreeSpyder I'm getting up a pretty good library.

Don't know if you remember it. In that PM you addressed several of the concerns that have been mentioned in this thread about pruning and over-pruning, where to prune, "water sprouts", etc.


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