# Major Crown Reduction Pin Oak



## Jace (Jan 17, 2012)

Customer wants me to trim this tree way back. I dont want to because it's such a nice tree, and if I do what he wants, it'll only hurt the tree. I told him that it'll be just as big in a few years, only weaker. He still wont listen and wants me to trim it way back (way beyond 25%).

I've seen these topped and look nice shaped later. And... I've also seen branches die back when cut majorly. So....do I just need to take it way back to the largest lateral branch possible, and hope for the best, or what?

Thoughts?


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## Bomber (Jan 17, 2012)

Personal I would rather walk away from the job. The customer will find someone to hack the tree but I wouldn't want my name on it.


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## formationrx (Jan 19, 2012)

*pin*

1. give it a medium prune and elevate it a little.... that tree will be beautiful...be sure to work the whole canopy evenly and balance it out ... poke a few holes so the sun can come through in shafts of light....open it up just enough so the wind funnels through it gently and does not rock it too hard.... he'll probably love it.... 
2. you dont just reduce the crown on a tree like that (it'll look like ####). if you want to give the whole canopy a light shaping that is fine... just dont take too much and do it at the right time of the year (dead of winter- best / oct.-april ok) ..... whatever you do, dont take more then 1/3 out of it...
3. you are the tree guy... that is what he is paying you for... if you tell him what is the right thing to do.... and he does not agree and wants you to do the wrong thing- REFUSE AND WALK.... he'll end up hiring a bunch of dirt bags who will massacre the tree and pee on the side of his house all day.


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## tree md (Jan 19, 2012)

I had to pull a couple of storm damaged hangers at a house a couple of weeks ago. They had two Pin Oaks in the front that had been topped within the past 10 years. You could tell they were gorgeous at onetime, now they look like hell. The craigslist crew strikes again. I see it all over town. I guess some people really think that is how a tree is supposed to look... I saw two freshly topped trees down in my territory last week. Looked atrocious. 50% topped with a bunch of uneven stubs. Glad my name is not on anything like that. I'm going to get a picture of it next time I'm down there.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

*May need more than a trim*

If it were my tree and my house, I'd be more concerned with where the root system on that tree is going.

As close to the house as it is, it's bound to be getting close to some buried utilities, not to mention what it's doing to the gutters/drains, and how much it's shading the roof out.

You might suggest moving the tree further away from the house.


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 27, 2012)

I completely agree w/ Bomber, Del, and tree md. 

I'd walk away every time before hacking that beauty.

Gutter helmets can prevent problems with the guttering with less expense than hacking it. 

We don't even know which side of the house the tree is on, so roof shading may not be an issue at all. If shading is an issue (lichen or moss growing on the roof) then a light raise would allow enough air flow to keep the roof dry and safe from degradation via moisture.

If the roots are a potential problem to the foundation (which I doubt), then root barriers are a much better option than starting a new one farther away (because we all know that tree isn't gonna be moved without becoming firewood).

There are way too many people who use BS as the basis for selling unneeded work, or justifying work that the owner wants done, even though it's blatantly wrong.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> I completely agree w/ Bomber, Del, and tree md.
> 
> I'd walk away every time before hacking that beauty.
> 
> ...



I've seen enough Gutter Helmets to know that they don't work. The tassels from the oak get in and clog the drains at the bottom of the downspouts, the gutter overflow and cause fascia/sophit rot, and can lead to foundation problems, but they won't know it until the brick cracks.

Are you going to raise the entire house or just the roof?

Oak trees shouldn't be planted that close to the house, or left that close to the house whichever the case may be, and that's no BS. I've been around long enough to know the difference.


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I've seen enough Gutter Helmets to know that they don't work. The tassels from the oak get in and clog the drains at the bottom of the downspouts, the gutter overflow and cause fascia/sophit rot, and can lead to foundation problems, but they won't know it until the brick cracks.
> 
> Are you going to raise the entire house or just the roof?
> 
> Oak trees shouldn't be planted that close to the house, or left that close to the house whichever the case may be, and that's no BS. I've been around long enough to know the difference.



:bang:

Yeah, those catkins are just turrible......falling all year long and causing peoples houses to fall apart....oh, wait....they only fall for a few weeks a year. I can't imagine the insanity of cleaning the gutters once a year. It comes down to.....do you want to do the work (or pay someone once a year) or do you want to pay the utility company for the additional cooling costs without the tree there. You're spending the time or money yearly either way. 

Maybe you're into raising houses, but I'd rather just raise the tree a bit to give the house the air flow it needs to stay dry. 

Since you don't like oaks with the drip line near the edge of the house, what tree would you suggest be planted there? A sycamore? Or a silver maple? Or maybe a sweetgum? Myself, I'm fine with the oaks.....granted I'd prefer a white cultivar instead of a pin, but I'm still fine with the pin.

In this case it's obvious that being around "long enough" doesn't necessarily mean that you've learned anything other than how to sell jobs based on fear and BS.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> :bang:
> 
> Yeah, those catkins are just turrible......falling all year long and causing peoples houses to fall apart....oh, wait....they only fall for a few weeks a year. I can't imagine the insanity of cleaning the gutters once a year. It comes down to.....do you want to do the work



The problem is most people don't do anything about it until something goes wrong, usually that's about the time they decide to paint the house, and the painter starts finding rotten fascia/sophit boards while he's prepping the house for paint.

Even then all most do is have someone replace the rotten boards(it's like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound), without any thought to why they rotted in the first place, so the problem still exists, and over time worsens. 

Unless the guy doing the repairs happens to be a GC with enough experience to know that you have to fix the cause of the damage or the damage will keep getting worse.



> Maybe you're into raising houses, but I'd rather just raise the tree a bit to give the house the air flow it needs to stay dry.



No, I only misunderstood what you meant, because you speak in improper sentences. You might try replacing the word "it" with the noun that you're referring to. [/QUOTE]



> Since you don't like oaks with the drip line near the edge of the house, what tree would you suggest be planted there? A sycamore? Or a silver maple? Or maybe a sweetgum? Myself, I'm fine with the oaks.....granted I'd prefer a white cultivar instead of a pin, but I'm still fine with the pin.



Now You're completely in a little world of your own there; Aren't you? Lol does anyone know what he's talking about now? :msp_sneaky:



> In this case it's obvious that being around "long enough" doesn't necessarily mean that you've learned anything other than how to sell jobs based on fear and BS.



You really should stay away from those conspiracy theories of yours man.

Like I always say 'If you think education is expensive, you should try paying ignorance'.

If you let things like clogged downspouts go for just a year or two you will end up paying out the a$$ for the repairs, and all that will happen without me BSing you into a state of fear ridden panic.

Why do you think houses have gutters and drip edge on them in the first place? They're not there to keep the leaves off the lawn. 

I'll bet the guy who planted that tree neglected to put drain tile around the house too, and the downspouts probably don't connect to drains they probably just have splash blocks under them. I'll bet the owner saved enough money by doing that to install that dandy chainlink fence around the property. 

The good news, it's not raining.

But I digress.


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## pdqdl (Jan 27, 2012)

You can loose business and referrals by not doing what the customer wants. I would work on changing what he wants. It's ethical, he'll probably be happier in the end.

Have you asked him WHY he wants it butchered? Some customers are worried about blow-over, some fear branches over the roof. Others...just think it is good trimming. If you don't know why they want it done that way, your arguments against that kind of trimming are likely to fall on deaf ears.

I would try to sell MAJOR thinning. He is probably worried about the tree toppling onto his house, and figures if it can't hit the house, it's perfectly trimmed. After you sell him on thinning to reduce blow-over risk and other storm damage, go in and do a damn fine job of thinning the tree.

It will save him dead-wooding in the future; done well, it will make the tree stronger in the future, and it will certainly reduce the immediate concern of wind or ice load.

Be sure to mention that a really good trimming will save him money down the line, 'cause a hack job will lead to excessive sprouts and poorly attached branches...easy storm damage. Then the tree will probably decay from major pruning wounds...and then he will be paying for a total tree removal. Be sure to point out that it will probably take 15 years to kill the tree (if it doesn't die in the first year from a major hacking).

Right now, given proper pruning and maintenance, that tree adds considerably to the value of the home.


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> The problem is most people don't do anything about it until something goes wrong, usually that's about the time they decide to paint the house, and the painter starts finding rotten fascia/sophit boards while he's prepping the house for paint.
> 
> Even then all most do is have someone replace the rotten boards(it's like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound), without any thought to why they rotted in the first place, so the problem still exists, and over time worsens.
> 
> ...



lol.....well, at least we're gettin to the heart of the problem (and it's not the tree)....



> The problem is most people don't do anything about it until something goes wrong



Yeah, welcome to reality.

As far as your reading comprehension, and the way I choose to use, or not use proper grammar, meh, I could care less. 

I'm a bit concerned though, that you'd rather tell the HO to move the tree, rather than clean their gutters and downspouts yearly. Now why would a fella do that? Could it be that it's more profitable to suggest moving (or re-moving) the tree than it is to say "Keep your gutters and downspouts clean"? Yup, that just might be it.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Move the tree?
> 
> How many trees have you seen moved that are that size?
> 
> The tree is fine where it is.



Yeah maybe it is, but have you checked to see if it's causing problems or not.

Why does the guy want it cut back so far if it's fine where it is???

I'll bet if it were 100' away from the house he wouldn't want it trimmed at all.







> Gutter helmets do work



Gutter Helmets let stuff into the gutters, and water will run right off the edge of them, I've seen it happen, and I've had customers tell me that their Gutter Helmets allow water to run over the ends of them onto the ground.

They look nice though, the first time I ever saw them I was impressed and wanted to know where to get them.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> lol.....well, at least we're gettin to the heart of the problem (and it's not the tree)....



I have a lot of customers that only cut enough trees to build the house. It's nice to have trees around the house in the summer when it's hot, it keeps the temperature down 10 to 15 degrees, but they cause problems if you don't keep up with the mess and the root growth.





> I'm a bit concerned though, that you'd rather tell the HO to move the tree, rather than clean their gutters and downspouts yearly. Now why would a fella do that? Could it be that it's more profitable to suggest moving (or re-moving) the tree than it is to say "Keep your gutters and downspouts clean"? Yup, that just might be it.



Wouldn't I make more money if I wait till the gutters fall off and the foundation cracks? Lol

In all honesty, if the tree was causing a lot of problems I'd point out the problems it was causing and let the customer decide if they still want it cut back.

Obviously someone thinks it's a problem that needs to be addressed or they wouldn't be asking for someone to cut it back so far. 

The thing is though, most people don't know how big a problem it can be, or how to fix, and they think that just trimming it back will fix everything.

I don't care how long you've been cutting trees, you can't fix everything with a chainsaw.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

Del_ said:


> The gutter helmets still need cleaning but not nearly as often.. I do a few myself.
> 
> Also.........during heavy rain I have seen them overrun the 'helmet'.



Oaks are one of the worst, along with maple, pine, wild cherry, and locust, anything with tassels, seeds such as maple, or small blooms, or needles will ride the water right around the face of the helmet.

Maple seeds are the worst for clogging downspouts, oak tassels not as bad if there aren't too many.

I've replaced entire drainage systems because of this stuff, and cleaned out downspouts that were packed 4 to 5 feet up the spout with it.

The trees put it there, but neglect allows it get to that point.


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 28, 2012)

I would ask the HO what his problem is with the tree or what is he trying to achieve, and then achieve that. Don't let them tell you how to achieve something that they know nothing about. Try telling a surgeon how to fix the problem. You know what I'm saying? 

I've noticed that at the end of every job that the HO's are just astounded with the work because it looks all new like all new furniture in the house or something. OH GLEE! Right? So, that settles it every time. Just do the right thing, and let it settle itself. But it better be a danm good job, ay, if it's not exactly what they are asking you to do to that poor tree.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 28, 2012)

Classic! Good tree, bad HO! No matter the sit, bad work is bad work. Don't do bad work! Your rep will thank you, the HO (if there are any brains there) will thank you, but most importantly, that oak will thank you!
You can move trees that big, cost about as much as that house!
Dirty/filled gutters are small price to pay. 

This new guy must be a GC, recognize the hate for trees that my brother has. Always blames everything on the tree. 
A few years ago, he built a 750,000 condo, surrounded by large red and white oaks. I told him where he could dig and where not too. He didn't listen, then the oak closest to the over dig started declining, dropping some big stuff on the condo "that damn tree" I told him it was his fault and the tree is paying him back! Dropped a 6" chunk on a sky light, lol. Tree 1, Builder O (had to remove it tho, so everybody lost)

That oak there looks to be a great tree, looks like a opportunity to use yur arbo brains and make the HO learn something. 
If he still wants it butchered, walk. You will be back for the removal, but make sure he knows exactly what to expect, so when it does start happening, he will think "that guys was right, what was his number"


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## Jace (Jan 30, 2012)

Deal is this tree was majorly topped way back several years ago, now he thinks it looks this good years later, have someone do it again...

I told him everytime he does it, it just hurts the tree causing weak and decayed branches...
Not sure he "gets it"..


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## treemandan (Jan 30, 2012)

tell em yull #### it up for 1200


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## tree md (Jan 30, 2012)

Surprised that tree is still around... it would have already been scalped by the natives around here...


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## treemandan (Jan 30, 2012)

Del_ said:


> The gutter helmets still need cleaning but not nearly as often.. I do a few myself.
> 
> Also.........during heavy rain I have seen them overrun the 'helmet'.



I put a set on over the fall but took them off for winter due to run off and snow. I am thinking of drilling holes ( maybe 1/2 inch or less) along the length of each one to help with the run off.

I got the plastic ones that slide in. Gutters is a #####.


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## flushcut (Jan 30, 2012)

treemandan said:


> tell em yull #### it up for 1200



Priceless!


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## Carburetorless (Jan 30, 2012)

Jace said:


> Deal is this tree was majorly topped way back several years ago, now he thinks it looks this good years later, have someone do it again...
> 
> I told him everytime he does it, it just hurts the tree causing weak and decayed branches...
> Not sure he "gets it"..




I thought that it had by the way the branches are so vertical, that close to the house it's no wonder.

I agree with Treemandan, if you don't want to dismember it just price it out, he'll get someone cheaper to do it. Unless he want's it butchered right.


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## Incomplete (Feb 1, 2012)

Sorry to be a noob and butt in. But I thought Carb was being intentionally funny: cause that tree ain't movin' nowheres!:msp_w00t:


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## Incomplete (Feb 1, 2012)

And As a GC gutter helmets is EVIL. You want a new product called Gutter Rx. Installed exclusively to the gutter. NO roof penetrations, the true cause of eave and soffit damage. Great service for woodsmen and landscapers and contractors alike to provide to customers.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 1, 2012)

Incomplete said:


> Sorry to be a noob and butt in. But I thought Carb was being intentionally funny: cause that tree ain't movin' nowheres!:msp_w00t:



You'd better get a move on or you'll miss the school bus.


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## Jace (Apr 10, 2013)

Bomber said:


> Personal I would rather walk away from the job. The customer will find someone to hack the tree but I wouldn't want my name on it.





Well, a yr later now, he finally had somebody do it anyway. Even after I gave him a "who not top trees" handout from ISA. (B4 photo in opening post...)


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## Tree Pig (Apr 10, 2013)

Jace said:


> Well, a yr later now, he finally had somebody do it anyway. Even after I gave him a "who not top trees" handout from ISA. (B4 photo in opening post...)



Well I dont know if I would call that topping... borderline pollarding maybe. But either way its over pruning and it looks horrible. I would also think its really the wrong time of the year for such a drastic reduction.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 10, 2013)

I've seen a lot of them done that way around here, sad thing is, that's better than most that I see.

All that tree needed was the canopy raised and thinned, and the down growing limbs removed. Some tree services seem to think that cutting the tree into a nice shape is good for it, but I'll bet most of the trees done that way will be in bad shape in a few years.


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