# The most efficent way to buck logs for firewood production.



## KiwiBro (Jun 4, 2011)

If under, say, 5" do you use a cut off saw? Over, say 5" the chainsaw?

Straight from the stack, assuming there is one, or haul logs off the stack and buck 'em one by one?

Load many logs onto a bucking table and chainsaw many at the same time?

Haul/skid/cart logs away from forest to fixed bucking/firewood area, buck where the logs fall and cart the rings/rounds to the splitter, buck and split those logs where they fall and cart the split wood out?

Given various site differences, how do you optimise your processing of the wood and what gear do you have or would like, to achieve your optimum processing flow?

Do you like to take out a few of the site variables and truck logs to your fixed bucking/splitting area instead, or perhaps it's more efficient to move your splitter, etc to the log site and buck 'em there?

Once bucked, then what? Are the logs bucked at splitter height so there's no lifting to get to the splitter, or are the rounds/rings then stacked and if so, are they moved to the splitter and stacked there or stacked where bucked and splitter moved to them?

If you think there's plenty of questions here, you should see inside my head b/c these are merely the tip of the iceberg and I feel a bit like the titanic at the mo' ;-).

What say y'all?

Thanks.


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## KiwiBro (Jun 4, 2011)

I should probably also tender some background from my experience thus far and also what I'm leaning towards.

"Have chainsaw/splitter, will travel" has been my motto for the last 6 months or so. It's great for smallish jobs that can't justify the gear needed to load logging trucks or cart logs to another area. But I'm beginning to think a fixed yard and paying the price of hauling logs to it would ultimately be more profitable. 

In that scenario, if it is proven to be more profitable than mobile processing, the question then becomes one of how best to process the logs.

but I'm not yet done with the mobile processing evaluation and I'm sure I've not got the most efficient setup yet. It may be that the optimal mobile setup will be more profitable than a fixed yard.

There are so many site variables about mobile processing that could easily turn what looks like a reasonable job on paper into a nightmare job that seems to never end. The processing has to stay flexible to handle the different sites and with that flexibilty seems to come a degree of inefficiency.


So I'm keen to see what others have done and learn as much as I can. Efficient bucking of logs is common to mobile and fixed site processing so i thought I'd ask about that first and see what others are considering their most optimal bucking methods for various sized logs, as a starter for 10.


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

If under, say, 5" do you use a cut off saw? Over, say 5" the chainsaw?

*I can't imagine ever using a cut off saw on cord wood.*

Straight from the stack, assuming there is one, or haul logs off the stack and buck 'em one by one?

*I don't understand this question. First, we need to clarify terms. "To Buck" means to cut a log into the preferred length for your fireplace/woodstove. Those "bucked" pieces are generally called "rounds." We further reduce the rounds by splitting them lengthwise. Those pieces of wood are called splits. We take the splits and lay them into neat little piles called "stacks." When you say "stack" do you mean a pile of long logs? And are you asking if you buck them right in the pile OR take one log at a time and buck it??

I think some people cut logs into fireplace size rounds right on the log pile. I agree with the group that thinks this is unsafe because of unstable footing and possibility of logs shifting on you. Not a nice thought when you're operating a chain saw. If you are buying log length wood. Pull one log out at a time and buck it to your preferred length. With a chain saw! That's what it's for. Much quicker and more efficient than a cut off saw.* 

Load many logs onto a bucking table and chainsaw many at the same time?

*I'm not sure what a bucking table is. Some people build racks that will hold several small diameter logs so they can cut through a few logs at one time.*

Haul/skid/cart logs away from forest to fixed bucking/firewood area, buck where the logs fall and cart the rings/rounds to the splitter, buck and split those logs where they fall and cart the split wood out?

*I tend to buck everything in the field. I'll split really big, heavy rounds into quarters so I can lift them in to my truck. I rarely ever split the whole load in the field on someone elses property. But if I'm cutting in my own woods, with narrow paths, I'll either haul the logs out with my tractor and boom pole, then buck and split them in my firewood work area OR I might buck where the tree falls, carry the rounds to the trail, split them there and haul them in with my lawn tractor and little trailer. When I'm running my saw, every other fill up is time for a break. I hand sharpen my chain during this break. Stay hydrated, drink plenty of water, take frequent breaks. And when you start to get really tire... QUIT FOR THE DAY! Stay safe. You may read here about some guys who hand split five cords before breakfast. Well, good on them, but you're not here to compete with the other guys. And I save the cold beer until AFTER the power tools are put away for the day. That includes axes. *

Given various site differences, how do you optimize your processing of the wood and what gear do you have or would like, to achieve your optimum processing flow?

*Do we get college credit for this question? :msp_confused:
I'll take a stab at it.... I try to keep all wood off the ground, meaning out of contact with dirt. So, even the rounds that I've cut, but have not split yet, get stacked on wooden pallets. I tend to separate these by the type of tree because once split, I tend to stack by tree types. I also have a separate stack of scrounged rounds that needs further cutting to get my desired length. I separate my split wood by wood type and by (approximately) what year it will be ready to burn. One more pallet is home to knots, crotches and other uglies that I don't want to mess with while hand splitting. 

I have always split by hand, back in my wood working area, near the stacks. I like to put the round or rounds I am working on in an old car tire when I am splitting. This keeps me from having to keep stopping and picking up a piece of wood for further splitting. I have tried splitting on a tree stump but that is just more lifting and allows a shorter arc while swinging your maul/axe. 
I toss the splits into a pile for later stacking. I split with either a 10 pound maul or a Fisker's SS. Really big pieces get a sledge and wedge. I am really starting to lust after a gas powered hydraulic splitter. I thought today was the day. Found a great deal on a barely used Huskee 22 ton but a neighbor/friend decided to back out on a partnership and I can't really justify owning one on my own. So, I'll rent one when I get a big stash of rounds that need to be split. Like now. I have probably three cords that need splitting with two and a half to three more cords still in tree from in my woods and at a nearby neighbors.
Keep you work area reasonably clean. It's unsafe to be walking over foot deep chips, bark, and sawdust. Rake all that stuff into a pile, bag it or box it and burn it sometime. *

Do you like to take out a few of the site variables and truck logs to your fixed bucking/splitting area instead, or perhaps it's more efficient to move your splitter, etc to the log site and buck 'em there?

*Pretty much answered above.*

Once bucked, then what? Are the logs bucked at splitter height so there's no lifting to get to the splitter, or are the rounds/rings then stacked and if so, are they moved to the splitter and stacked there or stacked where bucked and splitter moved to them?

*Bucking the logs at splitter height seems like a really bad idea. It would require the lifting of large logs up to some sort of rack, buck them to length. Then what are you going to do? Turn off the saw, take that one round and move it over to the splitter, split it, then go back, fire up the saw and cut one more round, repeat, repeat, repeat. That would be a whole lot of extra lifting.
It's better to buck all the logs into rounds and move your splitter in close to where the rounds are piled. Some people rig up fairly large racks or tables next to the splitter and load several rounds at a time on the rack, making it easier to slide one round up to the splitter at a time. Really large rounds, can be rolled over and split with the splitter in the vertical position so you don't have to lift them. Figure out something that works for you. Do your own time/motion study to eliminate as much lifting and handling as possible. The splitter has wheels for a reason. Take the splitter to the wood, not the wood to the splitter. *

*There are lots of guys on the board with far more experience than I have. Everyone does things differently. Take our hints and suggestions and make them work for you.

Cheers!*


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## TMFARM 2009 (Jun 4, 2011)

there is different types of firewood operations... for instance,
type 1 ---- the guy who takes saw splitter and truck to woods, fells, bucks, splits loads and hauls home leaving mess at site...
type 2 ---- the guy who fells, bucks to log length and hauls logs home to finish bucking splitting and stacking at home..
type 3 ---- the guy who buys logs hauled to him and bucks splits and stacks..
type 4 ---- the commercial guy who has a processor and other necessary equipment....( type 4 also has many sub categories)
i personally am a type 1 and 2 depending on weather type of terrain etc.
the key ingredient to any commercial operation is less handling of product.. the more you handle it the more you have in it..you need to find what works for your situation and make it work for you, not only dollar and cents wise but physically too.
thats my best advise for ya. hope it helps.


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## zogger (Jun 4, 2011)

*sorta dangerous but it works*

A long time ago I cut a LOT of fence posts and small diameter firewood logs with an arbor saw run by a belt from a tractor side drum PTO. The logs went on a swing table. I hand picked them off a trailer. We cut them down in the woods. You grabbed a log and slid it out, swing it into the spinning arbor saw and zip, cut. I mean, fast as anything. I didn't have a conveyor, but if you had a running conveyor under the end of the swing table where the chunks fell, then a ramp to keep rolling your small logs down to get to them, it would fly. As it was it was like ten times faster than a chainsaw. 

I would imagine nowadays that could be automated with some simple hydraulics. I don't know enough about professional processors to know if anyone uses a big circular saw blade like that anymore, or just the big hydraulic chainsaws. I do know we cut a lot of wood before that big saw blade needed sharpening though.

Like I said, it was dangerous, but is what we did a long time ago. I even free hand pointed the fence posts with that thing. 

man, the crap you do for a living when you are young and retarded and need the work...

but..having a dedicated yard with the expensive gear and just getting your logs delivered.....the money in firewood is in the processing and delivering, not in the cutting out in the woods, except for small scale or just doing it on a budget, OR, and this is spiffy, getting paid to cut and remove trees then go right to delivering them to the end user. that's slick. Get paid both ends of the stick that way. 

So, it depends I guess on how much you gotta pay for the wood, or do you get paid to cut and haul away, or is the wood free for the grabbing, or what. 


I don't think any method in the middle is all that great to make money, either do it small scale and keep expenses at a minimum,.,(as in, I know I could live swell on selling one cord of wood per day, heck, half a cord..) or go huge scale with expensive gear and mass quantities.

The less handling you do, the more per hour you make, either way. Big gear does mass quantities, but it breaks down, inevitable, so you have to ask yourself do you have enough of a financial cushion to absorb big unexpected repair bills..


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

Once I get my current stash split and stack I'll have close to six cords. I only burn about a cord and a half a year, so I'm finally going to be, maybe, four years ahead. That's a nice place to be. But I want to stay ahead and, since I rather enjoy this stuff, I will continue to accumulate wood and process it. I can lay my hands on close to 50 cords of oak that is mine for the taking. If I could sell a few cords a year, that's just gravy and might help me buy a splitter on my own, rather than trying to broker a partnership deal with my neighbor/buddies. 
But I'm not really interested in going into a mass production business.


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 4, 2011)

*It Depends...*

You may look at it this way. The right equipment depends on the scale of operations. The more you can reduce the waste (sawdust) the more efficient the operation. Buzz cutting when bucking to length is more efficient that chain saw bucking. However, there are so many small firewood producers that can't buzz cut the wood and so many thousands of chain saws in the field that can, you have to consider that first.


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## KiwiBro (Jun 4, 2011)

Kensterfly said:


> If under, say, 5" do you use a cut off saw? Over, say 5" the chainsaw?
> 
> *I can't imagine ever using a cut off saw on cord wood.*



If there's lots of little stuff, do you bundle them and buck with a saw? We have species here that can stay little but are still great for firewood. It's great they don't need splitting either (if they are already pretty dry or there is no major rush to dry them). cut off saws are not particularly portable, but are quick, hardly ever need sharpening, cheap to run, and produce naff-all waste. I'm not championing them over chainsaws, but acknowledging a horses for courses approach may dictate not ruling them out of every scenario, unless you and others consider there are faster, cheaper ways of bucking little stuff with the chainsaw? If so, please sing out as that is what this thread is all about-finding the optimal ways.



Kensterfly said:


> Straight from the stack, assuming there is one, or haul logs off the stack and buck 'em one by one?
> 
> I don't understand this question. First, we need to clarify terms. "To Buck" means to cut a log into the preferred length for your fireplace/woodstove. Those "bucked" pieces are generally called "rounds." We further reduce the rounds by splitting them lengthwise. Those pieces of wood are called splits. We take the splits and lay them into neat little piles called "stacks." When you say "stack" do you mean a pile of long logs? And are you asking if you buck them right in the pile OR take one log at a time and buck it??



Yes, a stack of logs. Buck in the pile or pull that pile apart and get the logs down to ground level where they can't roll or move about so much?



Kensterfly said:


> I'm not sure what a bucking table is. Some people build racks that will hold several small diameter logs so they can cut through a few logs at one time.



That's what I'm thinking. Load the table with logs, buck many logs with each chainsaw cut, producing more rounds per cut (but at the expense of time and gear to load the tables). From the table, rounds can be rolled onto roller tables or straight onto the splitter table rather than be dropped to ground, stacked on ground or pallets, as this simply means many have to be returned to splitter table height later (double handling and extra effort).



Kensterfly said:


> Bucking the logs at splitter height seems like a really bad idea. It would require the lifting of large logs up to some sort of rack, buck them to length. Then what are you going to do? Turn off the saw, take that one round and move it over to the splitter, split it, then go back, fire up the saw and cut one more round, repeat, repeat, repeat. That would be a whole lot of extra lifting.



I've noticed there are quite a few logs high that I can cut in one pass without too much binding on the bar/chain. You mentioned above you agree with getting the logs off the pile and down to ground level to buck as it's safer. How would do you do that if faced with a pile of logs? What I'm thinking of here is a slightly modified log trailer with boom whereby the trailer becomes the bucking table and the boom loads the trailer either from the log pile or fallen/trimmed logs, or a winch on the boom can skid logs if the trailer can't get into where the logs are. 

I agree, to do it one cut at a time (cut round, then split round) is utterly absurd. but with a log trailer acting as a bucking table, and/or additional tables within the boom's reach, that's a decent amount of rounds to be cut with a tank of gas at a time, for example. It's a matter of extra rods (or some other way - I'm all ears) to hold those loose bucked rounds in-situ until they can be rolled off onto an adjacent roller conveyor or splitter table.



Kensterfly said:


> Everyone does things differently.


. That's what I find quite interesting about this. Given the same scenario, two guys might approach it differently, but there has to be an optimal way for each scenario and one or both of those guys haven't figured it out or can't afford the gear.
so I'm asking questions, getting ideas, trying to stay open minded but not so open ideas don't 'stick'.


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

When you start talking about roller tables and conveyor belts and modified log trailers with booms-- you are getting way out of my league. I'm just trying to heat our home at the lowest possible cost. That means NEVER paying for wood, providing my own labor and keeping all other costs to a minimum. For me, and speaking only for me, the expenditure of thousands and thousands of dollars in equipment is totally, economically self-defeating.


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## zogger (Jun 4, 2011)

*A sawbuck*

Well, sure, use a saw buck then. You can slap three or four small logs together on a decent home made sawbuck and cut through them all at once with a decent enough saw and big bar. I do a slight variation on that in the field, just accumulate a lot of big branches, prop them across some medium chunks, and buck several at once. Just depends on the tree, if there are enough smaller and long and near straight branches I can do that. 

I use a lot of smaller stuff for my personal firewood, stuff that doesn't need splitting, as I have to clear it anyway and handle it, I burn it then. Ton of small sweetgums and whatnot that grow along fence lines and like to take over the edges of pastures.

Your cutoff saw idea is similar to what I said above with an arbor saw with a swing table, just what moves is reversed. A cutoff saw, the blade swings down and cuts the wood and the table stays put. An arbor saw blade just sits in one place, and the swing table swings in to push the wood against the blade, then you swung it back down, shove the log forward and do it again. 

Have to admit, when I was running that I never did more than one log at a time though.

The only thing to consider is the damage to an expensive saw blade (and possible shrapnel) as opposed to just goobering up some links on a chain if and when you hit trash in the wood. Heck, ya never know, I have even found embedded bullets in wild trees I have cut (thankfully never with the arbor saw though) 

small scale like you want....see if you can deliver to the customer directly from the woods, you handle the wood less then, loading into truck, unloading at customers. No middle stop back at your place where it gets handled again. Just make them aware this is GREEN WOOD and it should season well before burning. If they want dry wood, ready to burn right that second, that has been sitting in your yard for a year, the price goes up obviously, because you have to handle it twice as much, plus you are paying rent/your note on your property, and the stacked up wood costs you money to store (more or less, you know what I mean)


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 4, 2011)

*$$ or $$$$$$$$*

efficiency is in essence "time", and that comes down to money

if you don't have the money, then you're going to have to invest the time

if you have the money, then you can spend that and invest less time

personal preference: I'm not jumping into a firewood business until I have a high volume source and a market that justifies a dedicated lot and processor...no source yet, so not even any market research done

that being said, when I cut my firewood for winter, I *try* to process everything on site and leave with a trailer of "billets" ready to put in the stack...minimizes handling time

otherwise you fall it, limb it, buck it, and then load (handle) it onto the rig...

then unload (handle) it onto your pile...

then maybe buck (handle) the longer chunks to length...

then split (handle) it all, and stack (handle) it all...

and heaven forbid you have to move (handle) it from a drying stack to your winter stacking spot...!

lastly, we all bring (handle) it in to burn in the stove...of whatever sort

minimize your handling, and you'll maximize your efficiency!
(you will hit a point where you'll have to invest money to increase efficiency, but you can go a long way first)

safety may appear to decrease efficiency, but it is an investment worth making...take the long road on that one!

I don't have the money, so I invest the time, and usually handle my firewood about 6 times...kills me, but it is what it is for now

perhaps a mobile shear-type processor would work well for a one man show? (winch the logs into the processor where they're cut to billet length and split)


cheers!


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

Please define "billet." I'm not familiar with the term.


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## leon (Jun 4, 2011)

SPDRMNKY said:


> efficiency is in essence "time", and that comes down to money
> 
> if you don't have the money, then you're going to have to invest the time
> 
> ...


 
The Chomper with the winch and the 0-4-8 way head would work very well for shearing logs to length and they will dry quicky.


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 4, 2011)

zogger said:


> small scale like you want....see if you can deliver to the customer directly from the woods, you handle the wood less then, loading into truck, unloading at customers. No middle stop back at your place where it gets handled again. Just make them aware this is GREEN WOOD and it should season well before burning. If they want dry wood, ready to burn right that second, that has been sitting in your yard for a year, the price goes up obviously, because you have to handle it twice as much, plus you are paying rent/your note on your property, and the stacked up wood costs you money to store (more or less, you know what I mean)


 
that's a nice option...if it's marketable...info stored in noodle...thanks!:msp_thumbup:


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 4, 2011)

Kensterfly said:


> Please define "billet." I'm not familiar with the term.


 
apologies...

billet = piece/chunk of wood all processed (cut to stove length, split, maybe seasoned), and ready to put on drying stack or in stove


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

Like a dry split?


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 4, 2011)

Kensterfly said:


> Like a dry split?


 
see edited post...clarity improved


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

Okay, billet = split. I figured it was a British term but I see you're in Kansas. All this time reading these boards and I've never seen the term before other than the usual use, as in a housing assignment. Thanks!


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## indiansprings (Jun 4, 2011)

We almost always are cutting tops left behind by logging operations and the cull logs that are left behind.

I typically use one guy and a 50 hp 4wd tractor and loader to pull all the tops to one central "landing".
There I will use one of two guys to do nothing but limb and cut wood to lenght and pile the small limbs to burn.

After we have a huge pile of rounds, I take everyone (4-5 guys) and we will do nothing but split and load. Currently we use two hydraulic splitters and splitting mauls. I'm hoping to have a super split by fall.
We will put as large of piece on the splitter that two guys can lift.
If two guys can't pick it up, I'll either noodle it quarter it up or use logging tongs and the front loader to sit in on the splitter.

Last year we processed over 400 cord (410-420) this way and about 375-380 the year before. This year we hope to stay close to the same. We'll start stock piling at our wood lot in September, almost all our wood is seasoned unless a customer specifies gren wood, which several do.

The tractor and loader are key components of the operation.

I've tried it other ways, but find dragging to a central location the best for my circumstances. Chainsaws do 100% of the "bucking" to lenght.


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## Kensterfly (Jun 4, 2011)

If I was in the firewood business I'd definitely invest in a Super Split.


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## KiwiBro (Jun 4, 2011)

leon said:


> The Chomper with the winch and the 0-4-8 way head would work very well for shearing logs to length and they will dry quicky.



If those logs are just 5" DBH, can it feed three at a time? My understanding is it can only feed one log at a time.

How much deviation from straight can it work with? What if a log is not straight - will notching work?

What about heavy logs acting as the tail wagging the dog when trying to use the arms to line it up to the feed ramp?

It seems to move around so much it runs the risk of dropping splits off the edges of the conveyor hopper rather than into the hopper?

Why not an endless winch rather than be restricted to a finite cable/rope length or having to use connectors?

What if customers need a max split width of 6" - how does the wedge handle that?

If a log tapers above the max capacity of the chomper, how does one reverse it out if it jams and what happens if it does so while the operator is at the log pile hitching another log to the winch?

Is the shear blade really a no-maintenance item that doesn't need sharpening? if not, is it easy enough to remove and sharpen oneself?

Why not a knuckleboom/grapple in addition to the winch so that it can be parked close to the log pile and do away with shagging around with the winch cable and guide arms?

Real users have indicated production of around a cord per hour in real use. I'm not sure it's worth the $ being asked for it at that sort or production rate, but am certainly open to persuasion.


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## indiansprings (Jun 4, 2011)

For a processor a cord an hour seems slow. We have timed ourselves several times, we cut, split and stack a cord on the truck averaging about 64 minutes a cord with the crew we have know. Depending on the size and type of wood it can be faster. With hired help only running 8.00 an hour it would take a while to justify a processor. I think I could out produce a small processor with a super split with the crew we have now and I don't have all the cash tied up in a piece of equipment that might be hard to sell if I decide to shut down.


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 5, 2011)

*specific thoughts now that it's late here*

I guess a cutoff saw for bucking small stuff sounds like a "one-task" tool...and I try to have as few of those as possible...maybe up your power and shorten the bar for bucking...I have found that a saw buck is only faster if there are two people working...otherwise just cut on the ground...an array of long timbers/4x4's laid parallel at 16" apart would be a great landing for bucking small stuff

that super split is something that's finally as fast as a maul, and saves the operator energy!

a central location is really the only thing that makes sense when you get beyond a one-man-show

that's it...I'm done...I like your discussion here, but feel like we could all benefit from more information about your operation/planned operation...size, investment, primary or secondary income, etc....I get the impression you're right on the edge of making a significant investment?

cheers!


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## KiwiBro (Jun 5, 2011)

SPDRMNKY said:


> I guess a cutoff saw for bucking small stuff sounds like a "one-task" tool...and I try to have as few of those as possible


I largely agree but with the exception to that rule being when the volume and return can justify the single-task tool.


SPDRMNKY said:


> that super split is something that's finally as fast as a maul, and saves the operator energy!


 I keep reading good things about that splitter. I've never read an owner who's not happy with it, but have read a few who find it's still quite a bit of work man-handling the bigger stuff. At least it can do bigger stuff - it seems like anything that one can get on the table it will split, even if it is quite some work moving those big beasts around until they finally yield and start falling apart. Fast cycle time, but looks a little flimsy - but there are plenty around that just keep on splitting and have done for many, many years so looks could be deceiving.

If not going the firewood processor route, then one still needs to feed a splitter rounds and I'm yet to settle on the optimal way of doing that.



SPDRMNKY said:


> a central location is really the only thing that makes sense when you get beyond a one-man-show


 I've been pondering this point for quite some time. A yard near customers seems to make more sense than a yard near forests, when there is often quite a distance between the two, I am thinking. One truck and trailer loads of logs has to come further to the yard, but it means for every one trip there are hundreds of miles saved in smaller firewood delivery distances to customers, and it opens up the options of local customers using their own or loaning trailers if they want better prices. But then rent is dearer and commercial activities more restricted and operating hours and council demands more restrictive too. Most site with any log volumes have enough room for a portable processor to be set-up on the site/landing after the main harvesting operation has left, but any decent processor will need quite a large area for log storage to reach it's production potential day in and day out, not to mention storage area for the split wood (not many forestry companies want that hazard lying around in their forests if they can avoid it) so there's need to be somewhere for the split wood to go to and that brings us back to the central yard idea again.



SPDRMNKY said:


> I get the impression you're right on the edge of making a significant investment?


 Edging my way closer to the precipice ;-) I've about another 6 months self-imposed cooling off/learning period before I either walk or flick the switch on what will for me be some serious investment. Plenty of things to learn still about optimising 1 & 2-person smaller operations before I'm fully convinced it's not profitable enough. also, plenty to learn about best markets and keeping a processor fed and ensuring buyers for the product to keep a processor earning it's keep.


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## v8r (Jun 5, 2011)

for personal firewood, i cut (buck) and split onsite.. that way i only have to load it up on my ute, then unload it once onto my woodpile.. 
they say wood warms you up three times.. once when you cut it, once when you split it and once when you burn it. thats enough for me


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## mooseracing (Jun 6, 2011)

As it was mentioned before, buzz saw is my fastest tool. Only problem is other people around it.


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## Misfit138 (Jun 6, 2011)

zogger said:


> Well, sure, use a saw buck then..



Heh. Where I'm from, a *sawbuck* is a $10 bill. :msp_biggrin:

Also, according to TMFARM's reckoning, I would be a type 1 or 2 depending on my source of wood.


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 6, 2011)

*A Bit Confused...*



Kensterfly said:


> If I was in the firewood business I'd definitely invest in a Super Split.


Super Spits don't buzz cut or buck logs. Right?


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## zogger (Jun 6, 2011)

Misfit138 said:


> Heh. Where I'm from, a *sawbuck* is a $10 bill. :msp_biggrin:
> 
> Also, according to TMFARM's reckoning, I would be a type 1 or 2 depending on my source of wood.




--you are correct, if it is one word! And I have no idea how the slang term got invented.

With that said, the other fits, buck saw, saw buck, the saw to use on a buck...err....rats back to moolah..

too confuseth now...

then there's the franklin fireplace, because they originally costed one hundred smackers......errr..maybe not...


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## TMFARM 2009 (Jun 7, 2011)

ok, maybe i see a clarification here... are you asking about the old time buzz saws? i have one thats belt driven off the tractor pto... its dangerous to run and uses a lot more fuel running the tractor verses the chainsaw..and not much quicker either..it was good in its day but has now been superseded...
i hope that helps ya out for some info.. :msp_thumbsup:


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## MNGuns (Jun 7, 2011)

KiwiBro said:


> I keep reading good things about that splitter. I've never read an owner who's not happy with it, but have read a few who find it's still quite a bit of work man-handling the bigger stuff. At least it can do bigger stuff - it seems like anything that one can get on the table it will split, even if it is quite some work moving those big beasts around until they finally yield and start falling apart. Fast cycle time, but looks a little flimsy - but there are plenty around that just keep on splitting and have done for many, many years so looks could be deceiving.



Nothing flimsy about a SS. A lot of people have the idea of a big tank like hydraulic splitter being the only thing to split wood. This is incorrect. Perhaps the turf tires create the flimsy appearance. 

I cut and split wood for sale. Most of it is 24" or less in diameter. Over 24" and I will noodle it to size comfortable to lift onto the table. Only takes a minute, perhaps less to do and saves the old back.


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## gwiley (Jun 7, 2011)

Simple rule, touch the wood as few times as possible.

- F350 4x4
- 16' equipment trailer
- Bobcat skid steer
- a few saws
- Speeco splitter

When I am trying to be efficient I try to follow this process:

- trees are felled and cut to 10-16' lengths
- logs are loaded on equipment trailer with a skid steer
- logs are unloaded to staging area
- logs are distributed to stacking areas
- logs bucked right where they will be stacked
- splitter is moved to where the rounds are
- splits are placed on rails fresh off the wedge

Take some time to sit down with a cup of coffee and think through how you handle the wood. THink about how you can reduce the number of times you touch it between felling and stacking then start trying different approaches to reducing the # of touches.


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## morewood (Jun 7, 2011)

:agree2:

I have a touch count. Some things you don't have any control over. Land owners wishes tops the list. I would prefer to do it all in one place but it just isn't practical. If I can give my only piece of advice that is followed it would be this, get the best equipment you can afford. Inferior equipment costs more in the long run.

Shea


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## Streblerm (Jun 7, 2011)

Whether I am by myself or with a group we try to do the same. Try to get the wood home as quickly and efficiently as possible and then split and stack "at leisure" at home. We cut the pieces small enough to load and do most of the processing in the "yard" rather than the "field"

By myself this usually means a pickup and small trailer loaded by hand. I am usually scrounging city/suburban wood. I end up quartering the bigger stuff so I can move it by myself. With my cutting buddies it means dump truck, equipment trailer, and bobcat. Usually we are following the loggers cleaning up tree tops. The only real difference is the size of the cut pieces. 

There is an appeal to processing the wood in the field. It leaves less mess at home and possibly cuts one touch out of the process. It just seems to take too long. I have personally dragged four+ cords home in one day. I think our record as a group was 30 dump and trailer loads in a weekend. There is no way we would have hauled that much completely processed wood in such a short time.

You gotta get that free wood while you can. The processing can come a little at a time - Later. Once the wood is in my yard, its mine.


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## CJ1 (Jun 7, 2011)

In the woods I cut to length and move either with a small 1 yard loader or load directly into a pickup and trailer. If I am cutting off of a delivered pile I'll roll 4-6 logs onto 2 logs laid lengthwise and cut the shots all at one time. That is where the 372/390 come in handy. As far as splitting I don't split for myself anymore, if I can lift it it gets burned. If it needs split I will do that before the final load is loaded for delivery on the landing. CJ


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## KiwiBro (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. 
Yeah, that buzz saw - often run off tractor PTO's but there are stand-alone models too, is what I was meaning for small stuff. To my mind it's quicker and safer than a chainsaw...but...has anyone got a great idea how to buck the smaller diameter, less than straight logs faster than with a buzz saw?

Load 'em up on a log trailer and chainsaw plenty of them at a time using a saw powerful enough to handle the inevitable pinching as the logs move around as they are progressively bucked and the kinks are bucked out of them and they settle?

How else can one buck plenty of small, sometimes bent logs quickly?


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## Kensterfly (Jun 8, 2011)

gwiley said:


> - trees are felled and cut to 10-16' lengths
> - logs are loaded on equipment trailer with a skid steer
> *- logs are unloaded to staging area*
> - logs are distributed to stacking areas
> ...


 
GWiley, why drop at a staging area, then have to move them to the stacking area? That's an extra "touch." Why not just offload your trailer at the stacking area and split them there? 

Unless you are bringing in a trailer with very different types of wood that you want to split and stack separately, I'm not seeing the point of the staging area. 

Just curious.

Ken


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## gwiley (Jun 8, 2011)

Kensterfly said:


> GWiley, why drop at a staging area, then have to move them to the stacking area? That's an extra "touch." Why not just offload your trailer at the stacking area and split them there?
> 
> Unless you are bringing in a trailer with very different types of wood that you want to split and stack separately, I'm not seeing the point of the staging area.
> 
> ...


 
Good point - I have a twisty road from my driveway to the wood handling area that runs next to a few ravines that I can't navigate with my 44' rig. 

If I could get the rig back there I would dump the logs right at the stacking sites and it would save a LOT of time.

We are working on widening the road - probably ought to be higher on the priority list, but until then I am stuck with that extra step.


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 8, 2011)

KiwiBro said:


> If not going the firewood processor route, then one still needs to feed a splitter rounds and I'm yet to settle on the optimal way of doing that.
> 
> Edging my way closer to the precipice ;-) I've about another 6 months self-imposed cooling off/learning period before I either walk or flick the switch on what will for me be some serious investment. Plenty of things to learn still about optimising 1 & 2-person smaller operations before I'm fully convinced it's not profitable enough. also, plenty to learn about best markets and keeping a processor fed and ensuring buyers for the product to keep a processor earning it's keep.





KiwiBro said:


> Yeah, that buzz saw - often run off tractor PTO's but there are stand-alone models too, is what I was meaning for small stuff.
> 
> How else can one buck plenty of small, sometimes bent logs quickly?


 
might as well throw multitek processors out on the table...it looks like their "tongs" feeder would work well for non-straight logs...that's what I'm saving up for 

only ideas on feeding a splitter are...
1) mount a pivoting axle on it that lowered the unit to the ground via hydraulics...like some farm equipment...but you'd have to be ready to work bent over all day
2) lower the wedge end a bit so the rounds had a tendency to rest against it, and be held in place...use gravity to your advantage for once
3) after felling and limbing, position the logs parallel about 5' - 6' apart (or however wide your splitter axle is)...position your splitter at one end of this lane with the ram side facing it...starting at the splitter, buck down one log and back up the other...roll the splitter into the lane and split from both sides...roll along as progress is made...at the end you have a windrow of billets (*this is all assuming one guy can pickup the tongue and roll a splitter along...I know little about em'...use a maul myself)

ah...that kind of cutoff saw...we had one when I was a kid...with two guys you can buck ALOT of stuff in a hurry

I'm waiting for a garage sale large diameter chop saw...then I'm going to build it into a table about 8' long...and chop small stuff as fast as I can go

this would take some prep time, but...lay out some long ratchet straps 16" apart (or whatever your billet length is)...stack all your small logs as neatly as possible on them...starting in the middle secure the ratchet straps and tighten (real tight)...now just cut between the straps. you'll have some odd length pieces on the ends.

cheers!


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## KiwiBro (Jun 9, 2011)

SPDRMNKY said:


> might as well throw multitek processors out on the table...it looks like their "tongs" feeder would work well for non-straight logs...that's what I'm saving up for
> 
> only ideas on feeding a splitter are...
> 1) mount a pivoting axle on it that lowered the unit to the ground via hydraulics...like some farm equipment...but you'd have to be ready to work bent over all day
> ...


 
Re: Multitek, have you been peeking at my internet bookmarks? I believe they have had their problems in the early days but I've yet to actually speak with anyone who's using a current grapple model to see what they think of them. I'm quite liking the look of the 2025 LDCS.

One option that has me wondering, especially if the processor will stay fixed in a yard somewhere, is the 3-phase electric motor option. That strikes me as a great option. If anyone else has ever looked at that option, what did they think of it?

Re: bucking small logs, I was first thinking along the lines of your manual tie-strap idea, but what would be great is if I could somehow modify a log trailer that has grapple and winch, to also include a sacrificial/replaceable wooden bed (chainsaw can kiss it ever now and then without any dramas) and some sort of tie strapping on each set of log support extensions that somehow maintains pressure (tightens up automatically) as the logs move and settle as they are being bucked. I hope that is easy enough to understand.


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## SPDRMNKY (Jun 9, 2011)

KiwiBro said:


> Re: bucking small logs, I was first thinking along the lines of your manual tie-strap idea, but what would be great is if I could somehow modify a log trailer that has grapple and winch, to also include a sacrificial/replaceable wooden bed (chainsaw can kiss it ever now and then without any dramas) and some sort of tie strapping on each set of log support extensions that somehow maintains pressure (tightens up automatically) as the logs move and settle as they are being bucked. I hope that is easy enough to understand.


 
hydraulics with a float...like on my skidloader

each log support is C-channel instead of tube, and has a small diameter, long throw cylinder in it...attach chain across the logs to corresponding cylinders and set the lever to float...cylinder seal life wouldn't be great though, and all that hose and controls will be spendy.

small atv winches (I think they have a locking clutch) down one side of the trailer would work also...until you nick those taught cables with that monster saw you'd be running

either hydraulics or electronics can be rigged to maintain pressure...I think it would get interesting when they decided they had too much pressure, and decided to release a bit

or

what about a large saw buck (U shaped, not X) that pushed the logs out the back with a large plate. maintain a tight bundle with a garrote of chain that reset before each push, or a large dia grapple...cut billets off the end like an industrial pasta machine (automatic circular or chainsaw)

I dunno man...good discussion.


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## agstr (Oct 1, 2012)

*partial cuts*



KiwiBro said:


> If there's lots of little stuff, do you bundle them and buck with a saw? We have species here that can stay little but are still great for firewood. It's great they don't need splitting either (if they are already pretty dry or there is no major rush to dry them). cut off saws are not particularly portable, but are quick, hardly ever need sharpening, cheap to run, and produce naff-all waste. I'm not championing them over chainsaws, but acknowledging a horses for courses approach may dictate not ruling them out of every scenario, unless you and others consider there are faster, cheaper ways of bucking little stuff with the chainsaw? If so, please sing out as that is what this thread is all about-finding the optimal ways.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One approach I've tried is to make partial cuts for a log -- I lift the log with a loader onto the trailer and haul to where I split -- I complete the cuts for rounds then transfer to the super splitter at waist height with a hookaroon -- big rounds require a different approach.


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## esshup (Oct 5, 2012)

Another effeciency question, and I realize that the answer might depend on the equipment available. 

But, for the average joe that doesn't have a conveyor, or mechanical log lifter, what's the most effecient diameter (or range of log diameter) of log to use for firewood? (if you had a choice).

I can get free wood, but I can be kinda picky too - I can get wood from about 8" dia all the way up to around 50" dia. Yes, that's not a typo. 50" dia.

One place I can use a grapple bucket on a tractor to load the trailer - grapple has about 3,000# capacity. Other place no mechanical equipment is available. I have to buck the logs there to roll them onto the trailer, or buck/noodle in place to pick them up by hand.


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## zogger (Oct 5, 2012)

esshup said:


> Another effeciency question, and I realize that the answer might depend on the equipment available.
> 
> But, for the average joe that doesn't have a conveyor, or mechanical log lifter, what's the most effecient diameter (or range of log diameter) of log to use for firewood? (if you had a choice).
> 
> ...



To *me* it is the most efficient to take the bulk of the tree. So there is no size preference. It works out better to have different sizes anyway the way I burn, that's how I regulate heater output. I take down to pretty small. I don't have a computerized turbo heater that needs electricity and uses perect topshelf and uniform hardwood splits to work good, I am the "control panel" that regulates things. That means different sizes and species to choose from day to day. Winter is too much of a variable and one size or one species does not fit everything for heating requirements day to day.

Run the smallest fastest saws and just zing it out, milk them trees out, then a medium up to a large saw if required. It's there, it's down, and a quarter of the tree or a little more (rough) doesn't need any splitting This offsets the more cuts per tree, but less handling overall because they can just go right on the stacks and don't have to be rehandled splitting.

Chainsawing is also the most fun part for me (splitting is close, but the sawing gets the nod for topdog), so doing a bit more cutting per tree with the little saws just adds to the pleasure and also adds to the stacks. I like all the "saw time" I get. And it adds up with the BTU counter.

If this was a professional gig, trying to make money, I wouldn't buck up "perfect" sawlogs anyway, would only use tops, branches and crookedy trees, cull trees, etc for firewood.


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## redheadwoodshed (Oct 5, 2012)

This is how I do it: I go to the mill about a mile down the road at 3:00 p.m. during the week.That's what time they stop sawing and start cleaning up, loading the deck for tomorrow etc. The fellow who scales the logs will also runs the loader for the deck and keeps the log yard tidy.He keeps all the cull logs off to the side and saves all the hickory and pecan for me.So he loads my trailer with a nice load of big logs.Nothing under 30". It normally takes about and hour to run down to the mill and load and then about 3 hours for me to drag them off.My woodyard is on the edge of a hill so I try to unload the logs around this edge.The following day I buck the whole load and start splitting.I move around the yard as I go, that way things don't get too cluttered.Then, if I'm going to stack it, I stack it around the edge as well.When people come to get it, it's easy to get to. The splitter gets moved by an old lawn mower.I have a big shop fan I drag around and a chair I sit in and split. I've tried it were I just haul several loads of logs before I split it up, but I ran out of room, so I just do one at a time. Now if I had a way to stack them, a loader or forklift.I could haul logs all summer, cut and split all winter, and more firewood than anyone, but it would probably rot.I can't sell what I have now.


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## Greywynd (Oct 6, 2012)

I think that 'production' has to be divided into two different types. Personal production, and commercial. 

Generally with personal production, the emphasis is on low cost, to offset heating costs of the 'processor'. In this case, guys aren't afraid of sweat equity, and often know they handle the wood more than necessary, but a few extra hours of work and exercise isn't an issue for them, as they enjoy it, and enjoy the savings from it. 

With commercial 'production' emphasis is on maximizing profit. In each case this varies. If you have access to reliable, low cost workers, then handling may not be as big an issue. If you don't, an investment in equipment that replaces those workers may be necessary. It might be handling equipment (trucks, trailers, forklifts, loaders, skid steers), or it may be in processing equipment. 

Every area is different, and each operation will be different. Often commercial production evolves from personal, so along with that comes the former personal equipment. 

In my case for example, I have a saw, an axe, and a splitter that I built, for a minimum cost. I sell the odd cord of wood, but it's basically personal wood for heating. Hiring help, or spending big $$ on equipment doesn't make a lot of sense financially.


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## Sandhill Crane (Oct 6, 2012)

This is how I am doing it for now. There is obviously room for improvement at each stage. You get a system that kind of works, and then a bottleneck becomes obvious. You find a solution, which is always a series of trade offs, and the bottleneck... SURPRISE... does not disappear, it moves. The process repeats again, and again. It is all quite fun... Previously, before the fork lift, I would buck at the cord wood log pile, load the trailer, and pull it to the splitter with a quad. The bucking table and trailer each hold about half a cord. I stack everything, so the conveyor (just out of sight to the right and against the splitter table) is not truly necessary, but it is nice to use. Picked it up used, not something I would have bought new. Buying a piece of equipment falls into the series of trade offs. Buying a fork lift prevents me, temporarily, from upgrading splitters to a SS, but it saves my back from the really heavy stupid stuff we all do, and then wish we hadn't. A good friend said, "You can have anything you want, you just can't have everything you want."View attachment 255822
We all work around different circumstances, quite interesting... all the variables.


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