# Climbing Knots



## Sudo Tsuga (Aug 31, 2001)

*friction hitchs*

what do you guys use as your climbing knot Blakes hitch, or tautline hitch? and what about your system traditional or split tail?please explan your reasons

I use blakes and split tail untill double crotching then a tradional system is employed.


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## monkeypuzzle (Aug 31, 2001)

I use the Blake's Hitch exclusively,don't even know how to tie the Tautline Hitch.My climbing rope of choice is Saftey Blue High Vee,150ft.Like TC165 said earlier,I use a shorter rope for smaller trees and longest rope for the tall ones,less cluter on the ground.16 strand blue streak for the split-tail.Living here in Seminole land I get hassled about the orange and blue set up a lot buy FSU fans.I have NO interest in sports whatsoever.


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## treetrunk (Aug 31, 2001)

I also use a blakes hitch and a split tail, and instead of a traditional system, I carry a 4m lanyard on a prussik loop when double crothing, I find this is the fastest climbing system for me.


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## Dave (Aug 31, 2001)

I started with the tautline and 12 strand, when I learned the Blake's hitch with a split tail I thought I really had something. But when I found the french prussik the search was over. It's the kind of thing that has to be tied right or "knot" at all. Unbelievable how easy it slides yet locks up as soon as you load it. Also went to Blue Streak 16 strand at the same time. Easy to splice and works well with the french prussik.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 31, 2001)

I like th MT/VT for moving around in a tree, but you have to watch those darn things so much compared to a blake's.

I tried the LockJack and loved it on a natural crotch, but it would not hold my weight on a fc/tip. Bumer  . Coming back on a limb walk all i had to do was twitch the rope and it tailed through. On the fc I could not even footlock up.

I have done the little pulley self tailer for a blekes when in big open trees. Great for limb walks too


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 1, 2001)

Most of the time I am climbing on the LockJack II. My climbing weight is less than JPS so the LJII works just fine with my false crotch setup. This week my folks were in town so I took my Dad with me on a couple of days. He could not figure out how I was taling the slack back so easily. He was impressed with the LJII when I showed him how it worked after getting on the ground.

When I climb with a rope friction hithc I might use a Blake's on a split tail. If I need to do a short double crotch I just use the other end of my rope with a traditional system. The guys who climb for me have really taken a shine to the Distal. Since the D does not have to be babysat like the MT/VT versions, they seem to think that the tiny loss of performance is worth it. Knut Foppe showed a way of adding a half hithc to the VT that locsk off the hitch ALL of the time and takes the dressing flick out when using the VT.

Treetrunk!

You wrote about using a 4mm cord. Can you describe how you use that. What cord are you using? What is the breaking strength?

Tom


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## X-man (Sep 1, 2001)

*friction hitches*

guys,

I have been through alot of hitches and line to find out the VT 4wrap 3 braid works awesome. I'm a light guy and have never had to babysit this hitch whether 100 feet in a Euc. or 20 feet in an oak, this hitch is high performance when it comes to slack tending and descent, however I prefer to descend on a Gri-Gri or small figure 8 to spare burning the cord, which is 8mm New England T-900,6700lbs. 
I hear the LJ2 sport is nice and they have another similar device,"the Mimono" which I will be working with soon. These are both mechanical hitches and may/do have a place in our industry. 


I will post a link with 5 advanced friction hitches on it but I'm not sure if that's ok? http://community.webtv.net/acutabovetree/AdvancedProgressive

Rigging on,
X-man


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## WillClimb (Sep 1, 2001)

*Hitches*

I was taught to climb with a Tautline and nearly gave up climbing because of it...you have to keep watching it and I ended up with some nasty ropeburn that day. Then I discovered the Blake's hitch. I'll never go back.
I use Safety Blue with a Blue Streak Split Tail and a Micro Pulley for fair lead. Works wonderfully.

<<Insert chauvanist split-tail joke here>>


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## Treeman14 (Sep 1, 2001)

I guess I'm the only climber in the world still using the traditional tautline hitch I learned some twenty years ago. (Can you say dinosaur?) No micro pulley, no cambium savers, no false crotches. I did splurge on a speed line kit a while back, but more often I'll just toss a lowering line through a convenient crotch. I suppose I just prefer to stick with the old familiar way of doing things instead of taking the time to learn something new. I also subscribe to the K.I.S.S. policy; KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID! 
And before anyone asks, I do NOT use manila rope. Safety blue high-V.
BTW, I've never gotten rope burn and never had my knot slip.


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## treetrunk (Sep 1, 2001)

Tom Dunlap, it`s actually 13mm rope but 4m length, not 4mm. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I can see how 4mm would seem strange.


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 1, 2001)

I wasn't going to post on this thread untill I saw someone else who still uses a traditional tautline hitch. I learned from a man who learned from another OLD man how to tie a tautline and never had a problem. When the Blake's hitch came out, I saw a pic of it on a rope catalogue and tried it a few times, but didn't notice a substantial difference and by that time I could tie a tautline with my eyes closed. I have used mostly Arborplex rope. Tried some fancy expensive climbing rope once, it had a slick wear coating on it and my tautline kept slipping when I would lean against it to make a cut. After swinging out 2-3 times I turned the $1.25 per foot fancy lifeline into a handline! I guess I'm more comfortable with the basics, I try not to get distracted with all the new gadgets because I can trust what I know.


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## 2112 (Sep 1, 2001)

I to still only use a tauntline hitch. Ive never had a problem with It slipping on three strand rope but it will on 12 and 16 strand thats when I use two over two on the raps and put a not in the tail. I have never tried the blake hitch but after reading these posts I think I will have to give it a try.


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## WillClimb (Sep 2, 2001)

You guys have to realize that my rope burn incident was my first time climbing. It was on 16 strand line with a tautline. I had made it up to a branch probably 15 ft off the ground. My teacher told me to trust the knot and just swing off of the branch and keep my hand on the knot.

Man that 15 ft went fast! I watched smoke come from my hand. I didn't realize that my hand was supposed to touch the knot ONLY, and not the rope going through it....DUH!

Anyway, after that I didn't trust the tautline and I'm sure it was all in my head. But when trying the Blake's (about 2 months later) for some reason, for a beginner at least, it just seemed like there was no chance it would slip unless I requested it.

My (so called) teacher still uses the Tautline, quoting what someone said earlier..."can tie it with my eyes closed."


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## Darin (Sep 6, 2001)

X-Man, yes that ok to post the link because that is what he asked about. If it was just a spam, then no. Like if I said where can I buy a buckingham saddle, you post a link to sherrills. If I asked how can I fix my saw. Ask that question here on my site or just a reference to a site that has nothing to do with your question. If you got rid of your link on your signature that would be best or put a link on your site to mine. Sorry I couldnt be of any help on the knots.


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## o0_TreeMan_0o (Jul 21, 2002)

*Split Tail/Prusik Climbing System*

I have a few questions about how different climbers set up their split tail/Prusik.


do you use one or two binners and what kind?
what type and size of climb line and split tail/Prusik?
what are the pros and cons of your system?
if you use the Prusik, what pulley do you use (Petzl/CMI)?
if you use the Prusik, what kind and how many crossings/wraps?

Thx for any input.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jul 21, 2002)

i go a Double/yosemite tie off Bowline that connects first in line on a modified D narrow ball lock. Behind that, the first leg of a 3 strand eye to eye tail for a 1 down/3up clove type lacing and back to 'biner rear. This is stronger 'biner than wide 'D', more discrete, is so loaded it doesn't shift much (no room), which makes it harder to get into- which is good and bad; balance depending on your paranoia level. i like the Bowline on the left, placing the 'grenade' (knot) in my right, i carry my chain saw on my left, as weel as that is the side the open end of my lanyard hooks.

Still, connecting to Locking Splitter, like the center point connection and less thigh pressure. So small i roll upside down and all around, maximizing reach i have, calculating persoanal support in several positions as i go, for now i am the load, then i know how a load 'feels' with diffrent pulls on it...........

i've got a very hard to find particular keychain al.biner shaped like a steel snaplink, whose captured eye grips 1/2"line just right, the other end goes around the line fairly closely with lil'slop. i place it in my bowline right where it lines up to tend the Distall, with both legs of the tail pushing the 'biner's spine into the host line under the distal, with very lil'play. It is easy on, easy off with one hand for the knot tender.

i've tried some of the newer saddles, sold 2 diffrent styles cheap! Tried some of the diffrent knots, but they are more finicky and seem to come out with more play before the knot tender pushes right. But haven't ruled them out either, constatnly read and sort as these things go by. 3trand is easy and positive to play with (eyes)and has interesting properties in gripping / releasing braided line. i make custom, disposable tails, lanyards and experiments with it. i think for trying newer things out with friction hitches i suggest good 12 strand (nubbier, more catches) like good ole True Blue.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 21, 2002)

I'm playing with tress hitches using tenex I&I spliced cord.

biner on tress, snap on the spliced end of my line. I use a RM quick link inbetween the snap and the splice.

Prussick/klemhiest type knots dont do well for working systems, ascention only.


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## o0_TreeMan_0o (Jul 21, 2002)

By Prusik I was refering to the Manchard Tresse and it's Variations. I use either the 3 & 3 or the 8 & 1. :blob6:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 21, 2002)

I lump MT VT Distal Swabish and all thos into tress hitches, anythin that is braide and attached to a connector on both ends of the cord.

To me prussick implies a looped cord that is turned around the climbing line. I have seen some people work with them.

Pully is needed for clean running, does not need to be rated, but sharp edges are bad in this setup.


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## DDM (Jul 21, 2002)

If i'm going to use a Prusik I'll use a loop Prusiks. with a Mod D biner. and a CMI pulley.


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## G.I. tree guy (Sep 8, 2002)

I am presently using a blakehitch on a split-tail climbing system.I am thinking about changing to a closed knot(Prusik or Klemhiest).Do they function smoother?Can 1/2in. line be used or is smaller diameter rope a must? Any advice would be appreciated. THANK YOU.


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## Rob Murphy (Sep 8, 2002)

*Knots*

Have you tried
http://community-1.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots/
Do you have a copy of 'The Tree Climbers Companion" a must have text, handy in the field.
Spyder post him some old threads ...you keep up with all that.
Hope this helps mate!


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 8, 2002)

Welcome to the site. This is a really common question, we kick it around about twice a month. go back a couple of weeks in the archives and look for any related threads. There is a really long one on the "Blake's hitch" 

The search feature will keep you reading for a while.

tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 8, 2002)

They all work fine if made well in 1/2" line, the evolution for smoothness etc. goes beyond the Blake's i beleive is the general opinion. For me that stops at the distal, others have other pre-refrences, even MM!

i am wondering if we can get some reaction here form the 'usual suspects', as we step towards a referal list for some questions answered many times in many ways:
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&postid=43040}




why blakes over taut line? :
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4726}

Distal - Swaybish problem ??? :
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4310}

French Prussik :
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4031}

knot question :
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=3461}

schwabisch vs. distal :
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=3547}

schwabisch prusicks :
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=2359}

SRT:{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4313}

Clove/girth lacings {http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=3281}

Frenchy:
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=3118}

Tree Climbing Tips:
{http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=1039}


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 8, 2002)

I think the next step in friction hitch is a distal or swabish.

I tried the various MT/VT styles and was not happy with the mechanics.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 8, 2002)

dist-E-l not dist-A-l as I was corrected by Hubert...

Tom


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2002)

I use the Distal tied with kernmantle cord on my flip line and use 1/2" rope for my climbing hitch.
I`m very pleased with it.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 8, 2002)

No one listens.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 8, 2002)

Huh?


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## Nickrosis (Sep 8, 2002)

Tom writes: dist-E-l 
Kevin writes: Distal

Just wanted to be discreet...kind of a side thing, if you know what I mean...


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2002)

I don`t know Hubert and Tom needs tweaking every now and then.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 8, 2002)

Well, what's correct and who's to say it is?


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2002)

It`s Distel.
I read it in Sherrills catalog.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 8, 2002)

Distel it is. If Sherrill says so...


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2002)

I don`t remember seeing it in the Tree Climbers Companion, is it that new ?


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## FSburt (Sep 8, 2002)

I just changed from a using a Blakes to a Distel yesterday and am pleased as punch with how smooth and easily it slides up but will lock securely and decends very nice without locking up. Tried the swabisch but it locked up too much so for now i'll stick with the Distel for my lifeline and lanyard. Question? Is Bluewater static line too stiff to climb on I heard in another thread that you need some dynamic qualities in case of a fall makes sense to me.


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## coydog (Sep 8, 2002)

I remember reading some stats either on this forum or another concerning the destructive force on the body caused by falling with a static line, would be interesting if anybody remembers, to my recollection it was pretty alarming, a fairly short fall can cause some pretty massive internal injuries, particularly to the back and kidneys. The only time I climb on static or semistatic line is if I gaff up a stem for removal, set a rigging rope, and descend with a munter hitch, and I'm sure I'll catch flak for admitting I do that


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## Nickrosis (Sep 9, 2002)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=2950&highlight=blair+rule

Look where you see Tom Dunlap writing about the Blair Rule of Thumb...also referred to on this site as the Blair ROT.


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

Actually, coydog, tree climbing lifelines are kind of in between static and dynamic.
Ours stretch under bodyweight between 1.1 and about 1.6%. I'm not sure of the stretch at break figures, but think it is around 20-30%. 
Dynamic mt climb rope stretches 5-8% under load, and up to 70% at break. They are designed to absorb energy in any length fall to well below the danger level.

Thus, I would not want to take a factor 2 fall on tree line. That is, a fall from x feet above a tie in to x feet below.

Static caving, top roping lines stretch under about 8% at break. Spectra lines at under 5%.

Most of the specs are available on the web, at mfr's sites, I've read them, but am rusty on specifics...


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## hillbilly (Sep 9, 2002)

Nice thread you referenced to Nickrosis, I always wondered
when that discussion was gonna put up, thanks.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 9, 2002)

ouch! Next time how about tweaking my shoulder and not my nose 

Tom


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## murphy4trees (Sep 9, 2002)

JPS,
Heard you say a couple of times now you didn't like/ weren't happy with (mechanics of) the VT/french prussic...
Could you be more specific... and what kind of line and wraps/twists were you using... and what about it you don't like....
I Am wondering how anyone could not like the french prussic..
Thanks and God Bless,
Daniel


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## Top it (Sep 9, 2002)

I was wondering the same thing.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 9, 2002)

I used the mt/vt in a number of configurations for around 2 months. I needed a lot of wraps to make them hold and they would come unstacked from time to time, 'secialy in brushy canopies.

the dees-tel sawabish worked much better for me. am using 3:2 theese days.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 13, 2002)

i prefer a 1 down, 3 up distel for the same reasons JP sites, plus less slack before knot tender grabs in my setup.


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## murphy4trees (Sep 13, 2002)

"I needed a lot of wraps to make them hold and they would come unstacked from time to time,"

What kind of line were you using?
Daniel


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## rbtree (Sep 13, 2002)

I've been climbing on a Vt since the hitch was first publicized at least five years ago. I love it. Recently I have been experimenting with different cords, lengths, tying variations, as well as the distel/schwabisch. The d/s are certainly not that much more bombproof than the Vt, as I have found them to occasionally slide a bit. If the Vt is tied just right, it is almost impossible to have it slide. It takes a slow weighting after being bunched from self tailing up, such as with a hand on the line above it taking some of your weight, for it to run.

And if it is dressed a bit, it absolutely will NOT run, until you want it to.


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## FBerkel (Sep 14, 2002)

I had the problem of the mt/vt running on me after tending slack (with four wraps on top, 2 below). Recently switched to 6 up, 2 down, and that held, tried 5 over two, and it also seems to work for me. It definitely releases better than the distel/swabisch, whether moving it up with slack tender or pulling it down.

J.P: Your posts are somewhat clearer when you spell wrong on purpose.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 14, 2002)

I'm with Rob here. The vt releases much better than the distel, and that's the whole idea of the high performance hitch. If it's not working for you, it just needs tuning.
I don't see any advantage in performance from a distel to a blakes. The distel became popular when used for two ended lanyards, and I can see it for this, but for a climbing hitch it doesn't perform any better than the blakes.
If the vt runs on you, you've tied it wrong. I pulled on different configurations and always got at least 1000 lb.s of holding, usually more. In other words, you shouldn't need a lot of wraps, your loop may be too long.
I will say the vt is for experienced climbers, actually I should say good climbers, beginers need not apply. In fact, if I need to tell you how to make the hitch work, you shouldn't be using it, so forget I even posted this.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 14, 2002)




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## FBerkel (Sep 14, 2002)

Appreciate the info, Mike. Didn't appreciate the shot, though.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *ouch! Next time how about tweaking my shoulder and not my nose
> 
> Tom *



We love you, Tom D. :angel:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 15, 2002)

FBerkel, I didn't mean for it to be a shot, not at you anyway.
The vt's ability to break so easily is what makes it a lousy beginers knot. If it hangs while unloaded it may not grab once loaded. What you took as a shot was a tounge in cheek warning to new climbers, about using advanced techniques. In your post you said you had worked the bugs out and got it working, that shows that you have the knowledge and confidence to work through a problem and become a better climber for it. The guys who don't, just need more time in the saddle.
The next step in the learning progression, I suppose is to mess around with the mechanicals like the lock jack. That's one of the cool things about climbing, there's always more to learn.
One last thing, feel free to take a shot at me anytime.


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## FBerkel (Sep 15, 2002)

Taking aim.


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