# Anyone ever tried pollarding?



## capetrees (Jul 16, 2009)

http://www.wickedlocal.com/provincetown/news/x931232830/Town-Hall-pear-trees-cut-back

This happened in Provincetown while they rebuild Town Hall. The trees used to be pretty big, probably 30' diameter of foliage. They did the pollarding to reduce the roots as a result of not having as much foliage and branches to supply energy for. Can cutting it back this severe work and will the trees survive? They were pretty trees but the town wants to be able to see the building more. Usually it's the other way around, wanting to plant more and bigger trees to hide a building but remember where we're talkng here ....


----------



## Tree Pig (Jul 16, 2009)

capetrees said:


> http://www.wickedlocal.com/provincetown/news/x931232830/Town-Hall-pear-trees-cut-back
> 
> This happened in Provincetown while they rebuild Town Hall. The trees used to be pretty big, probably 30' diameter of foliage. They did the pollarding to reduce the roots as a result of not having as much foliage and branches to supply energy for. Can cutting it back this severe work and will the trees survive? They were pretty trees but the town wants to be able to see the building more. Usually it's the other way around, wanting to plant more and bigger trees to hide a building but remember where we're talkng here ....



I scene it discussed never saw it in practice until now. To me that looks a little extreme and ugly. At that point why not remove and replant a new tree.


----------



## treeslayer (Jul 16, 2009)

looks like all the trees ABC is pruning here under the power lines.:censored:


----------



## yooper (Jul 16, 2009)

I have about 100 acres with mostly hard wood, I always thought about pollarding some various trees just to see there reaction and what happens. ......just out of curiosity. as if they are done every year, after about 5 years It would be intersting to see the defect. dont worry there are 1000's of trees there, and it would all be done in fun perhaps this week end would be a good time for the science project


----------



## Mikecutstrees (Jul 16, 2009)

Isn't pollarding just a fancy european term for topping or Hat racking?.... Mike


----------



## BC WetCoast (Jul 17, 2009)

Mikecutstrees said:


> Isn't pollarding just a fancy european term for topping or Hat racking?.... Mike



Maybe they know something you don't?

I've seen pollarding done on willow successfully. Not sure how the bradford pear will react.

I use pollarding on the hazelnut that provides privacy between my yard and my neighbour's patio. Cut off the whips in the winter and they all regrow in the spring.


----------



## treeoperations (Jul 17, 2009)

*no worrys*

pollarding them pears is fine, it is hard on the trees to start with but they get used to it, it has to be done every year to the same point or it will mean there are bigger then needed wounds inflicted


----------



## demographic (Jul 17, 2009)

Its quite common for old hardwood trees in the UK to have been pollarded at some point in their lives and the book I read that mentioned it went onto say that oaks which have been pollarded generally live a lot longer than those which have not.
It described pollarding as re-setting the oaks biological clock.
It also mentioned that its a method of having a crop simillar to copicing whilst still having grassland underneath where the animals (like deer) cannot damage the new growth.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jul 17, 2009)

Some folks down the road from me had it done to all their yard trees. Not sure the variety, but pretty good size, prob 30' and they cut them back to 15'. They came back nice and full, just half size. It took a couple of years for them to come back around though, they were some ugly trees for a year or two.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 17, 2009)

wigglesworth said:


> Some folks down the road from me had it done to all their yard trees. Not sure the variety, but pretty good size, prob 30' and they cut them back to 15'. They came back nice and full, just half size. It took a couple of years for them to come back around though, they were some ugly trees for a year or two.



This is topping, not pollarding. The term comes from the practice of cutting the horns off of cattle, or dehorning, thus a cyclical process.







As is this "round over" hack job. Look at some of those cuts 

Yes it will cause root dieback, but to be pollarding you have to come back to a node that will sprout out latter in the year. This is not arboriculture, with their reasoning, it would be cheaper to remove and replace with new stock so you do have to prune them back on a regular cycle. 

I have read of 1-3 year cycles being successful, anything longer then that is problematic with compartmentalization.

With pollarding, your cuts should be relatively small, Shigo mentions 1 inch diameter being a nominal stopping point, once again CODIT is the concern (as with the 10 inch stub debate) larger limbs will get large decay pockets that do not allow the formation of a good pollard head.






The thinking is that the style developed from fodder management, trees were hacked up so that they could be easily trimmed for feed stock, and basket weaving material, and still be out of the reach of grazing animals.

Later Europeans frequently used them as boundary markers, and were brought into estates and downtown areas where large trees are impractical. I've seen pictures from Shigo and Blair where Euro city workers are in large trees , six apiece, with using handpruners to trim sprouts off in the dormant season.


----------



## Jovary (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds like a good plan as tree warden, get the people off your back and then once the experiment doesn't work they can remove them like they wanted to in the first place.

Who likes callery pears anymore anyways? They're overplanted everywhere and the flowers smell awful


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 17, 2009)

Jovary said:


> Sounds like a good plan as tree warden, get the people off your back and then once the experiment doesn't work they can remove them like they wanted to in the first place.
> 
> Who likes callery pears anymore anyways? They're overplanted everywhere and the flowers smell awful





> They were pretty trees but the town wants to be able to see the building more.



30 ft canopies means that they were the wrong cvs, and even when the sprout up there will be problems with views. 

This calls for better situated stock chosen for the siting by a professional. How about some taller fastigiate trees?


----------



## TreEmergencyB (Jul 17, 2009)

Nice trees? 
them pears will prolly live but the sprouts that come back are gonna be wicked and that tree will never be nice again???

them trees are weak anyway i always laugh when i see someone toppin one


----------



## Tree Dr. (Jul 17, 2009)

*pollarding or topping?*

I have cut a few trees back to pollards from full crown as a last resort vs. removal. It worked out ok but I specified bi-annual pruning must be maintained, also tried to cut at nodes.
True pollarding starts with a fresh specimen and is probably more asthetic,beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think it is appropriate in some cases ie: good compartmentalizers as long as it is maintained it looks ok. Hard to guarantee bi-annual pruning but does give a regular pruning gig.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 17, 2009)

Tree Dr. said:


> I personally think it is appropriate in some cases ie: good compartmentalizers as long as it is maintained it looks ok.



I think that good sprouting is more important than COD (-IT ) in pollarding. If you are working with a small branch on a willow you can get a great success.

I have a few in my yard I started a few years ago, mulberry, box elder, bur oak. Not much to look at right now, but the box elder looks like a very good candidate with the vigor and vitality the young trees can have.

I remember a discussion on pollards years ago on the ISA forum, where (i think) Stanford was having problems with the scaffold branches breaking on the 50 yer old ginkgo pollards. Seems that the did not put on much taper on the scaffolds and started becoming weak around the turn of the century. Looking at old European pollards I see that the scaffold limbs are usually kept somewhat short on annual cycle pollards.

I had some aspens that I worked on for 8 years with little luck, only to find that the client was hacking them back mid summer because they got too big. The never formed good heads, maybe because of the twice per year pruning.


----------



## treevet (Jul 17, 2009)

I have read some posts from Europeans talking about budget cuts causing lack of maintenance of pollards and then they become an extreme hazard.

Good description by JPS.


----------



## Bermie (Jul 19, 2009)

Cutting a 30' tree back to 15' is NOT pollarding, that is topping...aka hacking!

Pollarding is a tree maintenance technique that is planned and starts very early in the tree's lifetime. JPS's picture of mature pollards in a european setting is an example of well maintained pollards that were planned to be like that from before they were ever planted. They still have a reasonable scaffold and somewhat of a pleasing form.
Over the years they form those distinct 'cats heads', that is where starch is stored to supply the new growth, so cutting off the foliage annually does not continualy deplete the starch reserves as much as a topping cut either at a fresh node or mid branch.
The annual cuts are small, and callus over and compartmentalize much more easily than a large topping cut that is trying to be passed off as a pollard!

Trying to 'pollard' an already mature or oversize tree is an exercise in futility, decay pockets, excess watersprouts, labour intensive future management...

Pollards are PLANNED...!


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 19, 2009)

If I was a 'grower,' I would pollard for profit. Pollard in the urban enviroment would compel me to recommend removal or if they persist a maintenance plan.
Jeff


----------



## pdqdl (Jul 20, 2009)

We did exactly that to a couple of Callery pears in 2007, at the owners request. (probably not Bradfords, but they were along that line) I had previously advised them against that sort of thing, but other similar trees on the street got stripped down by another company. Then we got the request to do likewise the year after the neighboring trees survived.

I don't think there were even as many branches left on our trees as on the pics shown above. They were truly slaughtered. I would like to add, however, that our cuts were much done much better. The trees were butchered none-the-less.

These were trees that had simply outgrown the small area they were planted into. There just was too little room to allow full growth given the building behind them, the utility wires above them, and the street right beside them. Rather than remove and replant, they chose the "hack them down to size" plan. It actually worked pretty well. A year later, a little sucker thinning and pruning, and they are shaping up fairly well, and they are growing much faster (with no watering) than a transplanted tree would.

There are no early signs of decay or dieback, which is surprising when you consider how little open ground these trees have and how much asphalt and concrete surrounds them. Except for the little 4' box they were planted in, I would guess that they have at least 50' of pavement in every direction before the soil is exposed to air.

But then again, I haven't looked at them this year...


----------



## Bermie (Jul 21, 2009)

How big were the trees before you topped them?

Everyone now and then has a job where they have to top something, for whatever reason, just don't call it pollarding because it's NOT! ...let me add a smilie in case anyone thinks I'm getting snotty


----------



## Tree Dr. (Jul 21, 2009)

*Grafting top working*

Trees which naturaly mature to a smaller stature can "safely" be hacked back to almost nothing and actually benefit. Anyone ever seen an orchard of outdated standard size apples chopped and topworked to a bettter variety?
Sometimes its ok to break the "rules" when you know the consequences.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 21, 2009)

Those roots are gowing to be so invigorated! Hardscape damage.
Jeff


----------



## Greenstar (Jul 21, 2009)

Just as a few have said, this is not pollarding. Pollarding has to start much earlier in the trees life when branches are smaller in diameter so the tree can effectively compartmentalize over the cut. Also, the trees are cut back to nodes or other branch unions. Then every year the branches are cut cack to the previous year's swollen branch collar.
It is an artform in and of itself if diligently maintained properly.

Yes, these are hacked, however, I did see this exact thing done to Bradford pears about this same size two years ago here in Boston in front of a high profile Volvo dealership on North Beacon St. in Brighton, and the trees very surprisingly have come back! A whole long line of them too!!
I as well would be curious to see how they look this year, but last year they were so full of foliage from water-sprouting the first year you couldn't even see the way they were hacked at all. They looked fine, but like very compact trees. 
I would never do this myself, although in hindsight I do remember them looking pretty good.

I think it would be interesting for us to start posting more pictures of properly pollarded trees now in this thread. I know of a few locations where there are some and they look very good every year. They always seem to be done to crabapples around here.  haha


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 21, 2009)

They came back great. Great. How? Like I said, Watch the hardscape. Roots have a say in this!
Jeff


----------



## pdqdl (Jul 21, 2009)

Greenstar said:


> J...this exact thing done to Bradford pears about this same size two years ago here in Boston in front of a high profile Volvo dealership on North Beacon St. in Brighton, and the trees very surprisingly have come back! A whole long line of them too!!
> ...



Yep. that is how the ones in KC turned out too. Our stumps were probably 15"-18" diameter. The trees were easily 25' tall and overwhelming the space they were in. They had previously been hacked where they blocked the street, the sidewalk, or rubbed on the building, so they were not exactly lovely trees to begin with.


----------



## tomtrees58 (Jul 21, 2009)

NICE TOM TREES


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> so they were not exactly lovely trees to begin with.



These are always nice to experiment with; though, as said above, I would not call it a pollard unless there was a specific cycle for cutting back to the same spot.





> They always seem to be done to crabapples around here.



These are usually "roundover" trims, not pollards. A good annual roundover is more like Japanese Cloud Pruning that either topping or a pollard.


----------



## outofmytree (Jul 22, 2009)

Read my signature.....


----------



## Scottscape (Jul 22, 2009)

If you read shigos pruning book, he seems to recognize pollarding as a fair tree practice but then in pithy points he calls it tree mutilation? He knows a hell of alot more than me but to me it looks pretty much like topping. 

Shigo brings out great facts but I think some of the things he writes he contradicts himself. 

Pithy points is a fun book though you can get some good laughs


----------



## outofmytree (Jul 22, 2009)

Shigos point regarding pollarding was obvious to me. Whenever some clown with a chainsaw rapes 1/2 the growth of a tree they call it pollarding in an attempt to claim some kind of legitimacy. I am on side with JPS and Bermie etc... what is shown here, cannot be dignified by calling it pruning of any sort. It is simple tree butchery. Topping of the worst kind. 

This is a common practise where people crusade to save a tree where the correct decision, in my opinion, would be to remove it entirely and plant a more appropriate specimen. I rather suspect this is indeed political pruning designed to fail............

 :rant:


----------



## treevet (Jul 22, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> If you read shigos pruning book, he seems to recognize pollarding as a fair tree practice but then in pithy points he calls it tree mutilation? He knows a hell of alot more than me but to me it looks pretty much like topping.
> 
> Shigo brings out great facts but I think some of the things he writes he contradicts himself.
> 
> Pithy points is a fun book though you can get some good laughs



Please give examples where he contradicts himself in any book I have them all (and videos and cd's) and much more of his writings than can be bought or downloaded. I have spent countless hours in his presence. He certainly was capable of being wrong but, when he felt he was, it was not a contradiction but rather a correction in a statement based on his research.

What you are referring to in Pithy Points is likely "improper" pollarding as tree mutilation. He had respect for proper pollarding started early and consistent treatments without damaging the pollard head.


----------



## Rftreeman (Jul 22, 2009)

What? Ya'll don't like my crown reduction on them bradfords?


----------



## Scottscape (Jul 22, 2009)

treevet said:


> Please give examples where he contradicts himself in any book I have them all (and videos and cd's) and much more of his writings than can be bought or downloaded. I have spent countless hours in his presence. He certainly was capable of being wrong but, when he felt he was, it was not a contradiction but rather a correction in a statement based on his research.
> 
> What you are referring to in Pithy Points is likely "improper" pollarding as tree mutilation. He had respect for proper pollarding started early and consistent treatments without damaging the pollard head.



Im referring to shigos statement as it is in "outofmytree" user signature. "Tree mutilation is often called pollarding" Dr Alex Shigo

How can you have respect for pollarding in general and then make a statement as that? Maybe I am misunderstanding him but thats just the way I read it.


----------



## treemandan (Jul 22, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I scene it discussed never saw it in practice until now. To me that looks a little extreme and ugly. At that point why not remove and replant a new tree.



The wonders of a properly pollarded tree are astounding. Its good work. It also controls the size of the tree in a manner condusive with the tree can live with. Not many care to abide with the expense of yearly choppings nor understand it nor have a good specimen to start with.


----------



## treevet (Jul 22, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> Im referring to shigos statement as it is in "outofmytree" user signature. "Tree mutilation is often called pollarding" Dr Alex Shigo
> 
> How can you have respect for pollarding in general and then make a statement as that? Maybe I am misunderstanding him but thats just the way I read it.



Indiscriminate internodal injurious cut backs on trees also known as topping as a treatment to trees by misinformed and uncaring tree cutters often call their deeds pollarding (Shigo doesn't call their work that, they do). 

You can find a whole thread of them that take pride in this on a forum called "Treehouse".


----------



## pdqdl (Jul 22, 2009)

I have never seen a properly pollarded tree in the midwest. I don't remember seeing one anywhere else, either, for that matter. 

The customers around here don't ever want to spend the money for butchering a tree every year. They prefer to do it once every five to ten years, (or as needed ) and they are proud to call it topping.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 22, 2009)

treemandan said:


> The wonders of a properly pollarded tree are astounding. Its good work. It also controls the size of the tree in a manner condusive with the tree can live with. Not many care to abide with the expense of yearly choppings nor understand it nor have a good specimen to start with.



I think this is the reason why we do not ahve very many pictures to show. I kept a mulberry at my parents church for several years, but they kvetched about how fast it grew every spring, and I moved too far a way.....

I have a few starters in my yard, maybe i can post sequences with them here.


----------



## treemandan (Jul 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I have never seen a properly pollarded tree in the midwest. I don't remember seeing one anywhere else, either, for that matter.
> 
> The customers around here don't ever want to spend the money for butchering a tree every year. They prefer to do it once every five to ten years, (or as needed ) and they are proud to call it topping.



Dam skippy


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 22, 2009)

Could we be talking about a "class 4" prune. Sounds like this is bouncing back and forth. What do you guys say?
Jeff


----------



## Scottscape (Jul 22, 2009)

treevet said:


> Indiscriminate internodal injurious cut backs on trees also known as topping as a treatment to trees by misinformed and uncaring tree cutters often call their deeds pollarding (Shigo doesn't call their work that, they do).
> 
> You can find a whole thread of them that take pride in this on a forum called "Treehouse".



Was looking for the thread, can't seem to find anything but users wanting advice to build a treehouse. Whats the link? Thanks -Scott


----------



## treevet (Jul 22, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> Was looking for the thread, can't seem to find anything but users wanting advice to build a treehouse. Whats the link? Thanks -Scott



Not allowed to run a link to that on here I don't think Scottscape. Sorry.


----------



## capetrees (Jul 23, 2009)

UPDATE

I went to look at a couple of jobs late this afternoon and had to stop by to see the pollarded trees. There are six of them and from the accounts in the paper, they were reduced to reduce the roots so the roof water runoff system, to be located very close to the root area, wouldn't effect the root system. Now, if someone asks me to reduce the crown of a tree or asks to top them, I always try to leave as much productive greenery on the remaining branches, allowing the tree to survive, allowing photosynthesis to continue. Without leaves, the tree will die, correct? The pollarded trees, with the exception of one, have ZERO leaves or small branches on them at all. None. How does the tree survive? Shouldn't the work have been done over a period of time to reduce the shock to the tree's system? Shouldn't leaves, at least some, have been left on the tree, even if they were to be removed later once the tree rebuilds? Honestly, they look like hell. Make some great firewood soon if they die. 

BTW, is this the right time of the year to have done this type of work, middle of summer, with little or no maintainence as far as fertilizer or water?


----------



## Scottscape (Jul 23, 2009)

If you cut the crown out of the tree or stress the tree to where you remove too much of the tree the roots of the tree will actually grow larger.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 23, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> If you cut the crown out of the tree or stress the tree to where you remove too much of the tree the roots of the tree will actually grow larger.



Well said, hard to get the point across to most.
Jeff


----------



## capetrees (Jul 23, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> If you cut the crown out of the tree or stress the tree to where you remove too much of the tree the roots of the tree will actually grow larger.



Is there a reference to where that idea comes from. Some involved think the roots will become reduced due to the fact that they now have less tree to nourish.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 23, 2009)

capetrees said:


> Is there a reference to where that idea comes from. Some involved think the roots will become reduced due to the fact that they now have less tree to nourish.



It is a response just as water sprouts on vigorous specimens. Problem is it is a survival response so its effectiveness on aging trees is counter productive. Where as; proper crown reduction starts with cleaning then adds a little extra to shape,reduce weight and let the roots catch up on vigorous trees. I have to do a reduction on 3 hackburys and one tulip poplar late summer I hope to post pics and get feedback. Hackburys are one specimen that seem to need reduction imho.


----------



## outofmytree (Jul 24, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> Im referring to shigos statement as it is in "outofmytree" user signature. "Tree mutilation is often called pollarding" Dr Alex Shigo
> 
> How can you have respect for pollarding in general and then make a statement as that? Maybe I am misunderstanding him but thats just the way I read it.



TV hit it on the head Scott, what Alex Shigo was saying was that people with either no skill or no scruples, will rape a tree with a chainsaw, as per the pictures shown in the OT, then call it "pollarding" in order to make the uninformed believe that this "work" is correct pruning. 

I believe that pollarding is much like orchard pruning, a specific practise, performed on specific trees, commenced at an early age and requiring annual maintenance. 

I chose the quote for my signature because it reflects my personal experience. Bad work in this trade, and indeed many others, is often passed of as "best practise" by giving it a fancy name.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 24, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Well said, hard to get the point across to most.
> Jeff



Actually no, this went out with the concept of balancing root & shoot; loss of auxin can kill off the roots.



> Auxin-regulated responses include:
> induction of lateral and adventitious roots
> stimulation of fruit growth
> apical dominance
> ...



Topping causes all reserves to go into adventitious sprouting


----------



## Ax-man (Jul 26, 2009)

A tree's worst enemy is a guy with a running chainsaw. :jawdrop:

Classic case of topping. Might have just as well removed those trees and planted new ones.

Polllarding:hmm3grin2orange: where did that one come from regarding these particular trees???? 

Larry


----------



## capetrees (Jul 26, 2009)

This is the classic example of one guy, perhaps the only guy in Ptown thats an arborist, (maybe, how would I check?) and he has the town officials believing everything he says. They have no other readily available option. He also used to be on the board of selectmen, the town leaders, years ago so there is some history as to why he was called. Same guy on other projects has made comments regarding what was done "wrong" with other trees the town owns only to find himself completely wrong. Can't wait to see how this turns out. opcorn:


----------



## squad143 (Jul 26, 2009)

I always pollard right down to the stump .


----------



## capetrees (Aug 24, 2009)

So I get a call from a guy that wants a maple tree removed. It's on his property line and the neighbors also, right down the middle. The guy that called me has his half over his driveway and it drops junk on his cars. He hates it and wants it removed. The other guy has it hanging over his cottage and loves it because it gives him shade and is reluctant to have it removed, all at the first guys expense. Now, after reading the articles surrounding the trees at the beginning of this thread, the guy in the cottage would like to have the tree pollarded, of course not knowing what he's talking about, he just read about it. The other guy asked if it were possible. I told him we could try but I give no guarantee it will grow back or look normal later on with the remedy being to remove it if it doesn't work. Question I have is, can a maple, 8-10" dia, 20' tall, be pollarded? To me, it doesn't seem to be the type of tree that would handle that kind of trimming well. Anyone with insight?


----------



## outofmytree (Aug 24, 2009)

If it isn't started when the tree is juvenile then the risk of death by decay has to be much higher. You remove bigger branches, you create bigger wounds, you end up with worse problems.

Then again what would i know.


----------



## capetrees (Sep 13, 2009)

Took a ride by the site to check out the progress of these trees and they all survived, some growing stronger than the others. They look bushy for now. Nothing like they used to.


----------



## treeseer (Sep 14, 2009)

if they cut to nodes and the tree has vigor, it may work out in time. a pic in winter wold be nice, showing the wounds. :Eye:


----------



## TCinVA (Sep 16, 2009)

Our crew pollards 4 large sycamores every winter. I've been doing them for 17 years, and they had huge knobs when I started. They really look unique, we get tons of questions from tourists about them. With the huge heavy knobs, they are a fun challenge to get to the ends of the limbs because you have to use a handsaw or felcos to cut. I think certain species are much more tolerant of it. The gardeners also pollard vitex and rose of sharon as well as crepe myrtle.


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 17, 2009)

heers sum trees i topped. there redwoods. the guy might just cut em down now.. I guess its easier to limb em and top em when there in the air..let em fatten up..


----------



## tomtrees58 (Sep 18, 2009)

tom trees


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 18, 2009)

i love jobs like this...pretty much logging i love pruning shrubs and arborizing them but it's funn everynow and then to just bust out and top em..spur back down ,no ropes no worries. i carried a throwline in case i got in trouble i could drop a line.. makes alot of sunlight which = grass..these trees are in the middle of an alpaca pen and they noticed the grass has receded over the years leavign behind unedible ground cover. redwoods shed like crazy and kill grass..call me a clown,i dont mind it...they grow like weeds...this is just one of thoses jobs....next week i'll be pruning all week on five acres of these leavign only the tops..which i tried convincing these guys to do but it's just some ol mill worker guy there house is overgrown and they said they finally get sun in the livign room...which is important becasue it rains alot in the winter and is chilly....all he cared abou that i didnt get hurt...i was more concerned about myself too..especially when he might call someone else in to cut them down..theres alot of trees that benifit from toppign but only time tells...especially fruit trees..it's what you dont cut off and who's maintaing them year in year out..idunno...my 2cents


----------



## outofmytree (Sep 18, 2009)

lostcoastland said:


> *theres alot of trees that benifit from toppign *




Topping is indiscriminate internodal pruning. There are no trees on this planet that " benefit" from this outmoded practise. They may grow back, they may not. But do not make the common mistake of assuming that if they do indeed "bush out" that this is in any way beneficial. 

If I cut off your arm and by some miracle of modern medicine it was grown back would you think it was beneficial???


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 18, 2009)

i'm not a east coast arborist dealing with all kinds of fancy hardwoods. It's maybe a littel too simple out here, but i respect your reluctance... Here in the Humboldt Bay,CA we get 80mph winds every couple years and whole groves of healthy doug fir and spruce uproot . pines just break...trees grow really fast .. Unfortunatly the visions that people have for there tree's are unattainable..unless they top at the proper time- usually 10 or 15 years later they have a tree that is too tall and if you try to save it by reduction of crowns it is hard to be done properly. It's just too late. It's about good nursery stock thats been topped super young so they have a desirable shape. Then the plant can still recouver and it is flexible instead of being a wooden structure with sprout knobs. just like that ####ed up little apple tree that some decided to go along and try out there chainsaw skills on. and all the little sprouts come up . then you let some go and have to cut a bunch otherwise it turns into a porcupine and wont produce fruit. even so it takes years to get another apple. The redwoods that i topped like that are only about 25 years old which is like still beign a sprout for a redwood which live to 2000 years. It benifits the tree because it wont get hacked HARD later on down the road ...plus extra work later on vs removing it.

My picture definetly isnt textbook proper..it is like i said logging.. Sorry i dont have any better shaping topping bonzai effects...nature usually does a good job of blowing out tops before i can get to them....Thank god for that hah!


----------



## BC WetCoast (Sep 19, 2009)

lostcoastland said:


> i'm not a east coast arborist dealing with all kinds of fancy hardwoods. It's maybe a littel too simple out here, but i respect your reluctance... Here in the Humboldt Bay,CA we get 80mph winds every couple years and whole groves of healthy doug fir and spruce uproot . pines just break...trees grow really fast .. Unfortunatly the visions that people have for there tree's are unattainable..unless they top at the proper time- usually 10 or 15 years later they have a tree that is too tall and if you try to save it by reduction of crowns it is hard to be done properly. It's just too late. It's about good nursery stock thats been topped super young so they have a desirable shape. Then the plant can still recouver and it is flexible instead of being a wooden structure with sprout knobs. just like that ####ed up little apple tree that some decided to go along and try out there chainsaw skills on. and all the little sprouts come up . then you let some go and have to cut a bunch otherwise it turns into a porcupine and wont produce fruit. even so it takes years to get another apple. The redwoods that i topped like that are only about 25 years old which is like still beign a sprout for a redwood which live to 2000 years. It benifits the tree because it wont get hacked HARD later on down the road ...plus extra work later on vs removing it.
> 
> My picture definetly isnt textbook proper..it is like i said logging.. Sorry i dont have any better shaping topping bonzai effects...nature usually does a good job of blowing out tops before i can get to them....Thank god for that hah!



I think you need to spend some more time observing the ways trees react after topping. What you will end up with is a tree with 4, 5 or so tops. And when they get large enough, the connection point becomes weak and one of those new tops peels out. The topping cut is a prime infection court. It's not uncommon for those tops to be attached to a rotten shell at the topping cut.

Yes, tops in mature conifers on the coast blow out, whether its Douglas fir, hemlock, balsam or redwood. 

Notice in your comments that groves of fir or spruce blow down. Usually because they are intertwined and there isn't a single dominant anchor tree. Spruce are notorious to blow over because they are shallow rooted and they tend to blow over when the soils are saturated.

Your arboriculture concepts are about 40 years out of date. Time to get with the times.


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 19, 2009)

i guess topping is just redundant then...just a waste of time...might as well take the whole tree down huh...what do you suggest?


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 19, 2009)

i dont mind stumpy blown over looking trees...i think there cool...if i dont like it or it looks dangerous...prune or remove...it's that siimple...i'm going to install a osprey nest in a large redwood that was topped by a buddy of mine...it's a great way to create wildlife habitat


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 19, 2009)

i'm not stupid i know what happens in the forest.....i'll just be dumb topper dude from humboldt county its all good... i'd be glad to be 40 years behind...thats why i live here...no uptight city folk stressing about what your doing in your back yard. If we want to make a janked out eagle tree and theres no eagles well then..we'll have to cry about that later..but if a osprey moves in we're certainly going to be blessed now arnet we....lol....then we might have problems trying to evict raptors but thats a whole nother thread...


----------



## outofmytree (Sep 19, 2009)

Dude it isn't about east or west and it isn't about city or country. It's about proper tree practise, shown over and over again to benefit the tree. Shigo proved beyond doubt that topping damages the tree in many different ways and you can see that for yourself if you choose to look. But that is the key. You have to choose.

Every arborist encounters clients who want to top or lop their trees. Its up to you, as the educated professional, to explain that you will not do that and why. All too often you hear complaints like "everyone here does it" or ïf I dont top em I will go out of business" or "it's different in my town you don't know what it's like". The truth is, it is just the same in my town and in every other. I am carrying $280,000 of business debt and if I go down we lose our home. Don't tell me that doesn't weigh on my mind when I tell people that if they wany their trees topped they need to call someone else. Yes it has cost me some business. Some people want what they have always had. On the other hand, I have gained some long term clients who respect the fact that I refused to do the wrong thing even at the risk of losing their business.

Anyone can choose to be better than the crowd. You just have to decide it's going to be you. You can do it.


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 19, 2009)

:bang: I am carrying $280,000 of business debt and if I go down we lose our home. Don't tell me that doesn't weigh on my mind when I tell people that if they wany their trees topped they need to call someone else. Yes it has cost me some business. Some people want what they have always had. On the other hand, I have gained some long term clients who respect the fact that I refused to do the wrong thing even at the risk of losing their business....

....Outofmytree...i have a lot of respect for that intergrity and that kind of levelheadedness always pays off...it is our job to make trees last as long as possible even in less than ideal situations...without topping or maybe i should start saying crown reduction , less stigma.... If i was licensed i wouldnt leave behind any topped maples or decidous trees because i know how bad they get after the first year..like a porcupine....i have a job this winter cleaning up a hacked maple..not looking foward to it but whatever it's work..(not my hacking)...I appreciete your faith that i can see the light about the topping issue..which i've always have...so i guess next time were takign everything down to the ground.... No more topping means removals and nothing to prune later so i dont see why shigo didnt think about that...if i cared so much about trees i'd become an enviromentalist.....Sorry if i'm just stupid buts it is reality....and i know how crazy trees get after you top em...just has to be the right tree...It's called a Crown Reduction right?? Am i getting so much crap because i keep callign it topping??:taped: I'd rather be able to do a nice crown reduction than have to pass it over to another hack...I think it's all about timing though you cant go out and do one on a mature tree..it has to be young and supple without alot of meat on the bones...Or else it's hatracking and preparign for globes of saplings to pop that you'll have to spend the next five years pruning...which can be job security...but if you walk away the tree will get much too gnarly after maybe 2 years and further pruning will be unaccomplishable without leaving extra wounds... GEt em while their young and you wont have the issue?


----------



## Toddppm (Sep 19, 2009)

Nobody ever seen the Sycamores pollarded in front of city hall in San Fran?
Thought I took some pics but couldn't find them, these were on their site.


----------



## Toddppm (Sep 19, 2009)

These were done the right way.


----------



## outofmytree (Sep 19, 2009)

Yep, those be pollarded trees in all their ugliness.......

They remind me of giant rose bushes with all the same pruning needs.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Sep 20, 2009)

lostcoastland said:


> :bang:...and i know how crazy trees get after you top em...just has to be the right tree...It's called a Crown Reduction right?? Am i getting so much crap because i keep callign it topping??:taped: I'd rather be able to do a nice crown reduction than have to pass it over to another hack...I think it's all about timing though you cant go out and do one on a mature tree..it has to be young and supple without alot of meat on the bones...Or else it's hatracking and preparign for globes of saplings to pop that you'll have to spend the next five years pruning...which can be job security...but if you walk away the tree will get much too gnarly after maybe 2 years and further pruning will be unaccomplishable without leaving extra wounds... GEt em while their young and you wont have the issue?



You can do crown reductions, but you can't reduce the height of a conifer without topping it. You can reduce the mass of the crown by not it's height. On the other hand, you can reduce the height of a deciduous by drop crotch pruning.


----------



## Bermie (Sep 20, 2009)

here is a picture I took at the traffic lights in a town on the Newell Highway in Australia last week. I think we were in NSW at the time...these are proper pollards, London Planes I think from the brief glimpse I got before the green light....the things we do when on holiday!


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 20, 2009)

I cant drive a mile down the road without seeing some kind of pollarding..!


----------



## outofmytree (Sep 20, 2009)

Interesting combo that. Phoenix palms and london planes. Do you think that town planners have some difficulty reading tree books? Especially the parts where you figure out how big a NATIVE plant will grow and plant accordingly?

You will have to forgive me. We have so many topped trees here that I occasionally :rant:. I understand under powerlines but can somebody please explain why, in suburbs with powerlines on 1 side of the street they top the trees on both sides??


----------



## treevet (Sep 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> here is a picture I took at the traffic lights in a town on the Newell Highway in Australia last week. I think we were in NSW at the time...these are proper pollards, London Planes I think from the brief glimpse I got before the green light....the things we do when on holiday!



Now regardless of these plants not being started as juveniles they would have to be considered pollards as they have developed pollard heads and their integrity has been retained/maintained. Shigo was accepting of this situation later in his career.


----------



## outofmytree (Sep 20, 2009)

treevet said:


> Now regardless of these plants not being started as juveniles they would have to be considered pollards as they have developed pollard heads and their integrity has been retained/maintained. Shigo was accepting of this situation later in his career.



Yeah but. They are so *UGLY*!!!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 20, 2009)

lostcoastland said:


> I cant drive a mile down the road without seeing some kind of pollarding..!



:deadhorse:

Topping and pollarding are not the same thing 

Will those upright logs in the picturs above actually live?


----------



## mattfr12 (Sep 25, 2009)

we do it all the time in housing plans we just did 64 trees thats all they wanted done only like 4-5 we took out. people want smaller trees but they dont want them cut down. kinda the cheapest option.


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 25, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> :deadhorse:
> 
> Topping and pollarding are not the same thing
> 
> Will those upright logs in the picturs above actually live?



Thanks for the correction John Sanborn....you are absolutly correct....I have learned quite a bit from BCwetcoast and Outofmytree... thanks guys for seprating the difference and those are soem good examples of what pollardign is...my picture's of the upright logs are a great example of topping...i have been workign in a five acre grove of redwoods in which many had naturaly had there tops blown out creating multiple tops trees which i fixed up by leavign the most dominant top...i'll tell you what it's a hellova job fixing messed up tops and many i removed......The one difference is here we grow trees like the midwest grows corn....today the homeowner showed me pictures of the property when they first bought it after it had been logged...they found 3'diameters logs buried for a landing and sent away 6 or 7 log trucks of salvage...i can literly look at the trees that i was climbign that were 10- 20 ft. tall in 1983 and present day there over 130 ft tall!!......i removed a couple of mutated tops that were 2ft. in diameter 30ft tall...branching out....leaving a dinky little christmas tree on top of a 3ft.d. tree.....Make the best of it...everyplace is different...were all only here for so long...and yes the trees will live....I'm lucky to live in tree trimmers paradise..the neighbors came over and want there 5 acres done now...not topped but limbed up...the topping jobs are purely industrial...but there is a ####load of thinning and limbing...back to work:deadhorse: It's a lot of work but when you leave tops the stick wont sprout...you'll only have clear heart....i joke with them and tell them their grove is there 401k ...if the price of wood ever goes back up....


----------



## lostcoastland (Sep 25, 2009)

these trees are infantile sprouts compared to what covered the area 100 years ago..the area of eureka is a city of about 26,000 that is carved out of TPZ surrounding the other 99 of the county..thats all we got timber and weed growers..i know many people who are busy full time working to clear marijuana grows and have legal licensed buisnesses. Its just really forthcoming to stare the stump these things are growing off of....i know a guy who started his blacksmith forge in a hollowed of stump that flared out to about 25 feet wide and 15 or 20 feet tall covered with a tin roof...most of the stumps around here have springboard notches...so it's not that big of a deal to cut..basically a sucker...but i'm defenitly all ears to learn whats the best way to prune for health. I think i like the quote "The stronger the breeze the stronger the trees". 

The trees in the above had some skinny 100'ers that were about 5" -no taper...lol. some got left behind but i have been a little more vigilant lately...I believe the reason theses are so tall and skinny is because they have been supportign each other by "racking up" branches ...the reason i got the job is becasue they were tired of pickign up shed deadwood...it takes a lot of time to leave branches and is more effective to take all wood up to a certain point...about 50 -50 dead and live , where i get to is about 75 ft. and the growth becomes symetrical. I'm hoping for a reduced crown spurt and a girth increase from dealing with swaying. I havent seen any trees sprout that i've done...except here and there where i might have bad cut..it's been about two years for those. Knock on wood...What do you guys think? Any redwood specialist?


----------

