# sycamore removals



## Davidsinatree (Jan 20, 2006)

I will be removing these 2 sycamore trees. The customer wants them out to make room for a pool this spring. The trees are healthy, about 80' tall. About 30' of space between the trees.
Anytime I work on a tree type that I've never climbed, I am extra cautious and want to know about tendencies of the wood...( does it break easy, is the wood brittle..etc)

What are some of the important things to know about sycamore ?

My game plan is simple....
1. Limb it on the way up.
2. Drop the top limbs out.
3.Work down chunks on the way back down.
4.lay down the last 30' or 40' of the trunk.

Here is a pick of the trees.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Jan 20, 2006)

Its the 2 sycs in the middle of the pic ...not the one on the right side of the pic. There is about 30' of seperation between the two trees. On is in front of the other.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 20, 2006)

Looks like fun. 30 _inches_ between them, not 30'.

Set your rope high. Use spikes. Use your flipline. As you stated, limb the lowest first, making sure your flipline is well above the cut you will make. Being tied in to your lifeline means you're always tied in twice, except when repositioning your flipline up over the next limb to be cut.

On the way down, move your lifeline down along with your flipline, staying tied in twice at all times.

The dropping of the pole should happen when you finally run out of gas.

I prefer at that point to have a bigger saw sent up. Forget dropping the pole, just keep knocking off firewood lengths, all the way down. This keeps the mess all in a tight zone. Use an old tire as a target for the bombing of the hunks. 

Leave the stumps each level and each 30" high. This gives the excavators something to push on in removing the stumps by the roots. The owners could put a tabletop on them until then.

As far as the characteristics of the wood, nothing really out of the ordinary. Your clothes may end up looking like they're spray-painted white. Makes decent firewood, though often tough to split.


----------



## okietreedude1 (Jan 20, 2006)

David,

it almost looks like you can fell them. if not, what about setting a pull line in the top from the ground, limbing 1/2 way, and pulling out the top?

As for tendencies, sycamores are about average. I wouldnt worry about climbing them.


----------



## skwerl (Jan 20, 2006)

The wood is heavier than expected. The green wood is extremely strong but dead limbs will snap off easily Don't even think about stepping on a dead limb. The wood is very easy to gaff, kicking out is rare. The wood cuts and hinges well. Very predictable to cut (although the weight may surprise you). Lots of people are allergic to the fuzzy seed pods and/or the dust from leaves. Removing them before they bud out will make your job much easier.


----------



## clearance (Jan 20, 2006)

Hopefully you are climbing with a steelcore, like ok said it looks like you could just pull them over. If not run up the tallest one, limb as you go, top it, tie in, swing over to the other, top it, get a rope in it, rappel down. Running bowline the tree you came out of, undercut, backcut, end of story.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 20, 2006)

The allergy thing.... I won't do sycamores in the Summer because of that. My throat just about closes up. Some weird fuzz on the underside of the leaves. No problem in the Winter, though.

As Rocky says, sycamore is very heavy wood.


----------



## Toddppm (Jan 20, 2006)

Yeah , everything mentioned above and they're slippery suckers. Don't think you'll be able to hold onto cut limbs too easily , doesn't look like you'll be limbwalking so no worries there.


----------



## skwerl (Jan 20, 2006)

clearance said:


> Hopefully you are climbing with a steelcore,


Never owned a steelcore in almost 20 years of climbing. Why do users of steelcore always say that? Absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you make a habit of hitting your lanyard with a running chainsaw then you're not going to be a very successful or healthy climber for long, regardless of the style of lanyard.


----------



## Redbull (Jan 20, 2006)

Is this a low impact removal? If so, I'd go with TM's method and keep everything in one spot and nice and clean. If you can take the tops out and drop them, go for it. Let me know if you'd like any help. I don't have much going on right now.


----------



## moss (Jan 20, 2006)

Those two sycamores look more like 55-60' at the most. Also I'm not seeing much to tie into, maybe one decent crotch at around 35' on the right tree. everything else looks like 4" or less diameter. Appears to be flipline and spike climbing not much to hang a rope on. Or is my sense of scale off looking at this photo?

I'll second what Skwerl said, sycamore is suprisingly dense and strong!
-moss


----------



## clearance (Jan 20, 2006)

If you don't use a steelcore you probably don't wear a seatbelt by the same logic. It can't hurt to use one and like a seatbelt it may help you one day. If you are not using a steelcore you have to be secured with two lines in B.C.. These trees are a piece of cake, Treemachines way will work but I question his methods. I would climb with my ropes clipped to my belt, limbing on the way up, cutting above my lanyard so I don't have to throw it over any limbs. I throw my rope down when I have to, that way it can't get trapped under branches. I am just a powerline hack but after doing more removals like this than I can remember I fail to see why it has to be made complicated. Use up all the room you have, in regards to chunking it down why? Fall as big of a log as you can. Easier and safer to buck on the ground.


----------



## JimL (Jan 20, 2006)

Looks like a good spot to tie in, no big deal really.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Jan 20, 2006)

I do use steel core I picked up from okie. I love it.
The job is not low impact so I will be bombing away. I'll limb it and top it with my echoe then bomb chunks with the 346xp.
There may be enough room to drop the whole trees down but there would be much less room for error.
At this point the home owner just wants the trees on the ground so he can clean up the wood. I think he will change his mind when he see's how big the mess is.
Thanks for the offer Redbull...I'll keep you in mind.

I'll post pics from high above!!!


----------



## pbtree (Jan 21, 2006)

Go with the low impact plan, chunking it down as you go. 

As to the fuzz, I call them sick some mores for that reason - I will pretty much refuse to work with them unless the leaves are off in the fall\winter...

Have fun and post some pics of the job!


----------



## treeseer (Jan 21, 2006)

NIce straight logs. Is the woo duseful for something? If so you may be able to get free hauling.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 21, 2006)

clearance said:


> Treemachines way will work but I question his methods. I would climb with my ropes clipped to my belt, limbing on the way up, cutting above my lanyard so I don't have to throw it over any limbs. I throw my rope down when I have to, that way it can't get trapped under branches.


There's usually always a faster way. My suggestions were for a couple reasons. First, I made an assumption that David did not have a steelcore. I'm very glad he does as I'm a big fan of the steelcore lines (even though I'm not using one currently  ). Secondly, I really try to encourage our industry standard of being *t*ied *i*n *t*wice, *s*tupid (not callin ya stupid, Clearance, I just like the tits acronym, and non-acronymical tits for that matter). Third, when to make a cut above your flipline, there's chance that a peel can suck your midsection into the tree. With a wirecore, there's no cutting of that lanyard to free yourself. Without a steelcore, and having your lifeline hanging on your saddle, a peel could, in theory, lead to a fall. With the flipline above the limb to be cut, a peel is just that, and that alone. Clearly, in a peel situation you'd try to cut the limb first, and the flipline as a last resort. Fourthly, when your flipline is below the limb you are to cut, gravity, misjudgement, etc., can bring a spinning chain into the flipline itself. Doubtful it would cut through, but it's a quick way to screw up a perfectly good flipline. I have two of these in the last decade as testimonial, both on limbing pines on the way up.

I appreciate your questioning my methods, Clearance. It's good to get the reasonongs out on the table for everyone.


clearance said:


> In regards to chunking it down why? Fall as big of a log as you can. Easier and safer to buck on the ground.


If the tree were bigger, I might agree, but aerial bucking can prove swifter, prevent a long, concave trench, avoid sawdust way outside of the mess zone and avoid running your chain into the dirt. If your saw is powerful and your chain is sharp (the 346 being an excellent candidate for this), just sizzle through, push em off, move down a step or two, repeat.

Personally, I would skip the mini saw altogether and do the whole crowning out and upper bucking with the 346. These are big, lopping cuts, not pruning cuts. All those cuts (both trees) can probably be managed swiftly, and on a single tank of gas, not so with the smaller saw; slower cutting and 1-2 refuleings). For the remaining posts, the bigger wood, I'd prefer a bigger saw, but the 346 will do those trees top-to-bottom _and like it._


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 21, 2006)

The steel core flip lines have the steel to make them easier to flip, not for chainsaw cut protection. A chainsaw will easily cut a steel core flip line.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 21, 2006)

Maas said:


> The steel core flip lines have the steel to make them easier to flip, not for chainsaw cut protection. A chainsaw will easily cut a steel core flip line.


Mike, you funny, and fulla crap the way that statement is worded. Yes, steelcores DO flip easier, but to cut through one would almost have to be a deliberate, intentful attempt to do so.

'Easily cut' is an exaggeration at best, a false statement at worst if you mean it the way it appears. Maybe you mean easily cut as in 'easily nicked and damaged', or do you really mean 'cut fully through'? Anyway, steelcores are not the topic of this thread.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 21, 2006)

On this point you are wrong TM. It is a fact that a chainsaw will easily cut through a steelcore flipline.
I will not be discouraged from pointing out an issue of safety because you deem it to be "off topic".


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 21, 2006)

OK, then. I stand corrected.

Also, you're not fulla crap. I'm sorry I said that. I love you, Mang.


----------



## ROLLACOSTA (Jan 21, 2006)

Thems not Sycamores [acer psuedoplatanus] there London plane[[platanus xhispanica].......................but then you boys knew that didn't ya ????


----------



## Redbull (Jan 21, 2006)

Nope, over here they Sycamores.


----------



## okietreedude1 (Jan 21, 2006)

Red,

Actually there are both types here. Londons have two seed balls on one stem, sycs only have one ball on a stem. Thats the easiest way to tell them apart.


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Jan 21, 2006)

Its actually Platanus occidentalis (American Sycamore)

London Planetree is Platanus acerifolia.


----------



## jamie (Jan 21, 2006)

*argh*

this is why i reckon we should state tree species in latin

jamie


----------



## treeseer (Jan 21, 2006)

Rolla those are Platanus occidentalis. london planetrees are Platanus x acerifolia, sometimes listed as hybrida not hispica. 

TM you are so diplomatic in dealing with hyperbole. I'm taking notes. O and the makers of steelcores will be interested to know if their products are easily cut. mike if that's true you should tell them right away!


----------



## TreeJunkie (Jan 21, 2006)

Agreed 60 max height. Around here you'll rarely find the 80+ footers. If you do the stem will look much like that of TM's pic.

Forget climbing them. That seems like a pretty basic felling situation. Use throw line to set a couple pull ropes. Notch, we dge and pull over done deal ... Trees will both be on the ground in less than an hour and you will never have to subject yourself to the possibility of a fall. 

As to he comment about having to be more precise. Isn't that why customers hire us. We're sopposed to be skilled at our work. Precision should be your middle name. 

Check out redsds last post where he felled a couple nice sized trees. I'll bet for around 100 hr he'll come put them on the ground for you. Might even save you a trip to the ER.....


----------



## ROLLACOSTA (Jan 21, 2006)

treeseer yes I stand corrected platanus acerfolia is the true London plane everyone over here calls them [wrongly] platanus xhispanica.. So why I wonder does 'collins nature guides' 'trees of Britain and Europe' list the tree [London plane] as platanus xhispanica....... 

Its common knowledge overhere that a ms200t will cut through a wire flip line..


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 21, 2006)

They say an average chainsaw will cut a steelcore in under 3 seconds. We tested one against a sharp 046, it lasted under a second.

This is common knowledge, that a chainsaw will cut a steel core. Perhaps when you are at the seminars, a climbing or safety course or two, could benefit you more than all sales or biology meetings.


----------



## Redbull (Jan 21, 2006)

okietreedude1 said:


> Red,
> 
> Actually there are both types here. Londons have two seed balls on one stem, sycs only have one ball on a stem. Thats the easiest way to tell them apart.



I too, stand corrected. Thanks, David. It is hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like they could be felled. If anything, blow the tops out and then fell them. Heck, I'll come out for less than a bill an hour if all I need to bring is a big saw and some wedges


----------



## Redbull (Jan 21, 2006)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=12381&page=166
See post #2486 and 2487.
These were fun to flop.


----------



## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

In regards to steelcores-I appreciate what a big saw can do to one, great. Most of the time however, you will be climbing with an 020 (or equiv) this is when you are most likely to knick your lanyard, it is not that easy to cut through a steelcore with an 020, you notice the cutting is funny right away, I know, I cut right through a steelcore but I was tied in above. Not that easy to do, and when you are using a little saw you are mostly cutting up and down. When you are running a big saw (460,394 whatever) you are falling big tops, logs or blocks and your saw is held and cuts flat, hard to cut your line then. Steelcore-not that easy to cut with an 020. Rope-c'mon just look at it and its cut.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 21, 2006)

That's kinda the point, Clearance. You could sever a _rope flipline_ with a Silky. Wirecores are a quantum level safer, even though they can be cut through witha chainsaw. And they and flip better. The downside, a little extra weight, expensive, and with a micrograb and a captive biner, more expensive.

I'm climbing right now with a rope flipline made from 11 mm Velocity. I'm much more paranoid and safety-conscious using it, and I do the tits religiously, where with a steelcore, I've been more along the lines of Clearance.

Mebbe when I go back to steelcore I'll keep the tits habit more regularly as it really does offer you more confidence and better work positioning. 

As far as just dumping those trees, I wouldn't miss that climb for anything. If you just dump them, you're in the cleanup business, and mebbe the lawn repair business.

I would lay a big a$s tarp down, get all the limbs dropped to one side, and all the consistent fireood chunks bombed to the other side, whamming them onto a tire It's more to see if you can hit the bullsey consistently as preseving the lawn below these trees is not an issue. He's cleaning up, though, and you'll be doing him a big favor. 

Don't forget, we are professionals and this is what we do for fun.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 21, 2006)

Also, since we're sharing Latin nomenclature, the genus and specie names should be italicized, to be proper in convention, and the first (genus) should be capitalized. The second (specie) should be lower case. 

_Machinus arboreus_. _Dudus okietreemanus_. _Redbullus missouriosa_. _Clearance spikinclimberus_


----------



## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

I windfirm (cut of some branches, top so they don't get blown down) old growth, I climb over 100' on most all and often over 150'. Just not practical to be tied in and using a lanyard on the way up, after I top it I rappel and sometimes have to cut branches that have hangers. Then I use my steelcore and am tied in. Sometimes I use my split tail to go around if the tree is too fat for my little steelcore. My big steelcore is 18', it barely makes it around the big spruces at the butt. When I used to work utility it was comfortable to be tied in and use my steelcore when I was in one spot for a while, like using a polepruner to bust up overhang.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 21, 2006)

Clearance said:


> Just not practical to be tied in and using a lanyard on the way up.


I can understand that. It just means there are lots of moments were you're not tied in at all. You be careful, Mister.


----------



## okietreedude1 (Jan 21, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> _Dudus okietreemanus_.




I can did that! Can I get that under my name as well? Any mods listening in here?

As for the flip line issue, ive climbed for 11.5 yrs now all withOUT a wire core and never more than nicked my lanyard line w/ a handsaw. Even then, not enough to retire it that day. IVe been climbing w/ a 12' blaze flipper now for a year .5. Still in like new condition minus normal wear.

Anyway, we're hijacking this issue again. 

As for the clean up, if Im not cleaning up...just a drop and go, I get it to the ground and thats it. Remember in this case, the customer is putting in a POOL! Do you really think hes going to worry about some divits in the yard? OR a trench where the log landed? I seriously doubt it. If he is, wait till the back hoe for the pool shows up and desicrates the whole yard - front and back.

David, best of luck on those sycamores. Let us know what you end up doing.


----------



## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

Treemachine-I have two steelcores, I am always attached, just not tied in too. I have freeclimbed many times in the past though. These trees are just way to big to reach around, my boss asked me not to ever and if I get hurt bad it is a heli ride (if it can fly) and a medivac flight for two hours. I didn't really explain myself that well before.


----------



## Redbull (Jan 21, 2006)

I think TM's method works great in a normal, full cleanup situation and I try to model my method for cleanup after his(lots of tarps). But, if the custmoer wants to clean it up, then I just put it down as fast as possible and chrge accordingly.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 22, 2006)

clearance said:


> Treemachine-I have two steelcores, I am always attached, just not tied in too.


I have no beef with you. I'm glad to know that you're using two wirecores. You use those 18-footers and I'm sure you maximize their utility. I'll bet you've used those fliplines in ways I've never even imagined.

Wanna REALLY help the client in the cleanup? Park a dumpster under the trees and drop all the material in there from up in the tree. Limbs first, then bomb monster chunks to compress the limbage.

I never, ever leave the cleanup to the client. I had a couple early instances where they got into it, and then called me to come back and clean it up. Ugh. I discourage them now.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 22, 2006)

I'm curious...

If the trampoline could be slid away, why would you not just drop / fell those trees toward where the image was taken from ?

Is there something that does not meet the eye like the lid of a septic tank?

Do you get ice damage out there?

Many trees in the background look broken or topped.


----------



## jmack (Jan 22, 2006)

*syc*

davidsinatree sycamore is hard wood thin barked make sure yer gaffs r sharp


----------



## jmack (Jan 22, 2006)

*drop*



M.D. Vaden said:


> I'm curious...
> 
> If the trampoline could be slid away, why would you not just drop / fell those trees toward where the image was taken from ?
> 
> ...


 hey md, anyway reread the machines post about neat and controlled .... one who has the ability to climb will climb. when a ball dreams it dreams of being a disc .. follow me? besides its not a professional its grandma with saw and grandpa with a chain and the old john deere with a spot on kansas funniest videos


----------



## jmack (Jan 22, 2006)

*time*



treeseer said:


> NIce straight logs. Is the woo duseful for something? If so you may be able to get free hauling.


 dave dont waste time and energy thinking about or trying to arrange this and dont give a low number in hopes that somone will take/ use/ burn/ split/ carve a bong out of it etc etc. price it do it move on


----------



## jmack (Jan 22, 2006)

*whoa*



clearance said:


> I windfirm (cut of some branches, top so they don't get blown down) old growth, I climb over 100' on most all and often over 150'. Just not practical to be tied in and using a lanyard on the way up, after I top it I rappel and sometimes have to cut branches that have hangers. Then I use my steelcore and am tied in. Sometimes I use my split tail to go around if the tree is too fat for my little steelcore. My big steelcore is 18', it barely makes it around the big spruces at the butt. When I used to work utility it was comfortable to be tied in and use my steelcore when I was in one spot for a while, like using a polepruner to bust up overhang.


guy are you in our industry?


----------



## clearance (Jan 22, 2006)

No jmack-I paint houses...what the **** kind of industry do you think I am in? yo


----------



## jmack (Jan 22, 2006)

*house painter*



clearance said:


> No jmack-I paint houses...what the **** kind of industry do you think I am in? yo


 a house painter would say that it is more conveinent to climb without being tied in


----------



## jmack (Jan 22, 2006)

*fern feeler*



clearance said:


> No jmack-I paint houses...what the **** kind of industry do you think I am in? yo


 besides i thought maybe you were a cone collector or sumthing where you didnt have to tie in because you were climbing trees for fun


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 22, 2006)

jmack said:


> a house painter would say that it is more conveinent to climb without being tied in


Mack, this is really not called for. Clearance never said anything to this effect, and pointed out his method of always being tied in. I don't know where you're going with your 'suggestions', but please, put a clamp on it.

And thank you for pointing out 'neat and controlled'. That's where I'm going with it. That, and providing the highest level of customer service so their cleanup is straigh-t forward and doesn't require a saw. Neat, controlled, swift and professional. Enjoyable. Heck, I wouldn't miss that climb even if the thing *could* be dropped.

The tree is very straight-forward, with the added bonus of having to cross over from one top to the other. That's good stuff.

Just from what I see, a crane truck is not possible (please correct me if I'm wrong). Your clients (I assume) want their part to be as easy as possible. The worst thing that could be done for them is drop entire limbs in a tangled array, and then bomb varying lengths of loggage on top of it. That may be the 'fastest' for you, but is truly about doing a dice n' fly, or about doing it in excellence so you look like a pro, get referred on to other people and NOT get called back to pull them out of a cleanup nightmare? If you do all your cutting aerially, when you get to the ground, you are done. This is what a climber does. We _live for it._


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Jan 22, 2006)

If you can drop it from the ground, I say do it. Cut it up once it hits the ground. If you feel like you need to put on some sort of show for the customer in order to look like a professional (which you are), then set a pull line with the Big Shot, set up a come a long to pull it, and use the "stick trick" to judge where the tips will land. Hell, do a tapered hinge and then explain what it does to the home owner. That ought to be plenty dazzling.

If you really need the practice (and who doesn't, in truth) then climb it.

Clearance, I didn't know you painted houses too.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 22, 2006)

clearance said:


> In regards to steelcores-I appreciate what a big saw can do to one, great. Most of the time however, you will be climbing with an 020 (or equiv) this is when you are most likely to knick your lanyard, it is not that easy to cut through a steelcore with an 020, you notice the cutting is funny right away, I know, I cut right through a steelcore but I was tied in above.



This is a funny post. 
"It's not that easy to do, but I've done it. "
And that's my point, a steel core is not a replacement for a second tie in. It can be easily cut.


----------



## notahacker (Jan 22, 2006)

Way to go with that large saw in the tree. I know it is tough. 

Question: From your first photo it seems that you could move the tramp. and fell a majority of the tree towards the camera man's perspective. At least 50' or 60' of tree to fall? 

Just curious. I like to avoid bringing big saws in the tree if I can and that would be the solution there.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Jan 22, 2006)

Now the job is on hold untill cusomer gets income tax money. I thought he was ready to get it done right away....wanted to do it today.
Also he has changed his mind about wanting both trees removed. He now only wants one removed...( I think thats a good choice to save one of the trees )the smaller on in front will be removed.. You canot tell from the angle I took the picture from but there is about 30 feet of seperration between the two trees.


----------



## tophopper (Jan 22, 2006)

Thinking a steel core will give you protection from cutting ourself outta a tree is false security.

If you climb on a split tail system you can use the line as a second lanyard and easily pass crotches as you ascend. 

and personally I wouldnt ever condone dropping your rope to the ground so it wont get tangled in branches even with 2 lanyards. If you are working aloft, you should ALWAYS have enough rope with you to get down to the ground, even when working a spar. Id like to see you descend in a hurry with 2 lanyards and no rope.


----------



## TreeJunkie (Jan 22, 2006)

:bang:


----------



## tophopper (Jan 22, 2006)

TreeJunkie said:


> :bang:




Whats your point?


----------



## Redbull (Jan 22, 2006)

TreeJunkie said:


> :bang:



I agree. This topic went way out into left field. David asked how he should approach these removals. Steel cores never cae up in his question. I just hope he got something out of his derailed thread.


----------



## Stumper (Jan 22, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> OK, then. I stand corrected.
> 
> Also, you're not fulla crap. I'm sorry I said that. I love you, Mang.



In the interest of accuracy... Mike IS full of barnyard effluvia....but he is also correct about this and many other topics.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 22, 2006)

Redbull said:


> I agree. This topic went way out into left field. David asked how he should approach these removals. Steel cores never cae up in his question. I just hope he got something out of his derailed thread.


First off, when has it ever been a problem for thread at AS to go off topic? 
Next, is the issue of misinformation, it's wrong to let obviously wrong information, like flip lines being cut-proof, go unchecked. Somebody could get killed!
Finally, the two trees pictured are about as easy a tree removal job as it gets. There was good information given as to what Sycamore trees are like and how to approach this job. Dave should be happy with the responses.
The only real complaint about this thread is it should have been posted in Arborist 101.
And if you guys aren't happy with the direction of a thread, try contributing something of value, that _is_ on topic. Oops, I forgot who I was talking to. Never mind, keep whining like little beotchs.


----------



## tophopper (Jan 22, 2006)




----------



## Redbull (Jan 22, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> First off, when has it ever been a problem for thread at AS to go off topic?
> Next, is the issue of misinformation, it's wrong to let obviously wrong information, like flip lines being cut-proof, go unchecked. Somebody could get killed!
> Finally, the two trees pictured are about as easy a tree removal job as it gets. There was good information given as to what Sycamore trees are like and how to approach this job. Dave should be happy with the responses.
> The only real complaint about this thread is it should have been posted in Arborist 101.
> And if you guys aren't happy with the direction of a thread, try contributing something of value, that _is_ on topic. Oops, I forgot who I was talking to. Never mind, keep whining like little beotchs.


----------



## Xtra (Jan 22, 2006)

This past friday I removed two sycamores for a pool.
I echo everyone else, the wood is heavy, it spikes easy but don't be overconfident in that - the trunks are smooth and straight, if you aren't double tied in and spike out you could slide a good distance.

If a pool is going in where the trees are then you shouldn't have to worry about a low-impact removal. Also find out if the pool contractor wants the stumps left high (3 - 4 ft?).

Good luck, go slow, and have fun.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 22, 2006)

I'm glad the tree wasn't taken down this weekend. It gives us more time to analyze it, and put together a cleanup strategy. 

Now we've had to make some assumptions about the job. Collectively, we don't seem to care about what the customer is left with. We get it on the ground one way or another, and the customer gets whatever mess we leave them with. We assume no crane truck, or lifting device will be used. I'm also assuming there will be no chipper to chip. I imagine a trailer will be involved. There may or may not be someone coming for the firewood, of which there will be premium, excellent quantities. 

Another plug for the characterics of the wood: Sycamore makes good firewood, splits kind tough, but no problem with a hydraulic splitter, _and it is clean._ It looks clean and neat when the splitwood is stacked, and when it comes in to your house there is little-to-no bark to shed. It's smooth, and easy to handle. White bark, white wood. Exceptionally nice firewood once split and seasoned. 

So is David going to make them firewood-length chunks, or is he going to whack it into chunks of some size they may or may not be able to lift. Are the limbs going to be dropped whole and left as-is, or are you going to cut off the major laterals so the brush will stack, drag and load easier?  These are choices that eventually have to be made. Whether done aerially, or on the ground, these levels of service need to be decided opon, ideally, before you fire up a saw. the decision can be left til the final hour, but once you head up, it's time to be deliberate and plan and act on what you intend to create.

The quality of everyone's collective experience rides on these decisions.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 22, 2006)

I'm not being dramatic.


----------



## TreeJunkie (Jan 23, 2006)

Redbull said:


> I agree. This topic went way out into left field. David asked how he should approach these removals. Steel cores never cae up in his question. I just hope he got something out of his derailed thread.




Thanks B. completely agree. However this isn't my only reason for the previous post. Could it be Tree's R Us????LOL 

Like someone else posted; this belongs in the arb 101 forum, maybe even the homeowner forum. The questions posed are something i would expect of a homeowner not of a business owner. I love the competition in K>C>lllll


----------



## jmack (Jan 23, 2006)

*clampage*



Tree Machine said:


> Mack, this is really not called for. Clearance never said anything to this effect, and pointed out his method of always being tied in. I don't know where you're going with your 'suggestions', but please, put a clamp on it.
> 
> And thank you for pointing out 'neat and controlled'. That's where I'm going with it. That, and providing the highest level of customer service so their cleanup is straigh-t forward and doesn't require a saw. Neat, controlled, swift and professional. Enjoyable. Heck, I wouldn't miss that climb even if the thing *could* be dropped.
> 
> ...


sorry for going off the handle, I realize we have different standards in the industry, than most. after i posted that outburst i continued on storm cleanups. i physically placed my rope in the tree we were going to remove ( no throw bag) didnt see any visible cracks, while removing a lead over a line i felt the whole top let go with my climbing line in it , the top missed me went to the line and took that out then went tight on my line dragging me, i had my flipline around the lead i was working on which prevented me from sailing with the top to the drive way below at that moment as i pulled slack out of my vt to let the top down and take the weight off me i realized that if i had found it impractical to place a secondary line in.... anyway happy to be here, clearance if it works for you to be untied at 100' go for it.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 23, 2006)

TreeJunkie said:


> Thanks B. completely agree. However this isn't my only reason for the previous post. Could it be Tree's R Us????LOL
> 
> Like someone else posted; this belongs in the arb 101 forum, maybe even the homeowner forum. The questions posed are something i would expect of a homeowner not of a business owner. I love the competition in K>C>lllll



I did hear something interesting from Frans, over at the good forum, about the irritation people experience from sycamore. It' the Anthracnose fungal spores that cause the irritation


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 23, 2006)

I would question that. The outward symptoms of sycamore anthracnose appear in the leaves, but the fruiting structures of the organism are not located there. Anthracnose fungus (a fungi imperfecti) has it's life cycle within the tree. It's a systemic fungus. It causes leaf dieback, but the production of spores does not occur on the leaves. It occurs in the wood itself. The fungal reproductive bodies break through the wood causing a canker, one of the signs of an infection with sycamore anthracnose. The spores are black and are visible with close inspection with a hand magnifying glass, or easily with a 10X microscope.

The irritant on the underside of the leaves is white, powdery, loosly attached and covering the underside of leaves, mostly in the later Summer and are evident on sycamore trees with no outward signs of Anthracnose infection (cankers erupting out of the bark on limbs or branches or trunk, and dieback of the leaves along the midrib). These white fluffs can be seen clearly with the naked eye, and can be seen floating in the air when you shake a limb. When you run late Summer limbs through the chipper, you would be advised to wear a respirator because you cause clouds of it. Any neighbors nearby with asthma, this could be a bad trigger for them.

The bottom line, it is doubtful the lung irritation comes from the black anthracnose spores coming out of cankers on the wood, but rather from the white fluffies from the underside of the leaves that easily detach and fill the air. If you look really close at these fuzzy inhabitants, and just watch them patiently for a minute or so, they appear to move. I've done this a number of times, and though it outwardly appears that the underside of the leaf is shedding these things, I could almost be convinced that they are insects, a tiny, weird form of some bitty critter that camoflages itself with the underside of a sycamore leaf. What these white fluffies are, exactly, I don't truly know, but they're not the microscopic black spores from the Anthracnose fungus, _Gnomonia leptostyla_. I am very certain, though, that they're the source of the upper respiratory irritation.

Here's a link to one of our sponsors that tells more about sycamore anthracnose. http://www.rainbowscivance.com/SycamoreAnthracnose/syc_anth_2.asp


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 23, 2006)

Was that too far off topic? It's off the mainstream of a takedown, but David did ask about the characteristics of the tree and anything he should know.


----------



## clearance (Jan 23, 2006)

J mack-check out post #39 on this thread. No hard feelings, hacks can take getting hacked on. No hard feelings to anyone here, spurs are not the best for tree health, admitted.


----------



## jmack (Jan 24, 2006)

*ayuhp*



clearance said:


> J mack-check out post #39 on this thread. No hard feelings, hacks can take getting hacked on. No hard feelings to anyone here, spurs are not the best for tree health, admitted.


peace bro, come to find out yer utside the us and a utility climber. my bad i have much respect for utilty climbers.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Jan 31, 2006)

I removed the sycamore tree Sunday afternoon. 


Here is my take on my first sycamore work.
The bark is supper thin..its almost like a thin wrap around the wood.
Gaffs do not penetrate very deep,but I did not kick out at all and felt very safe gaffing up. I credit having Klien climbers for not ever kicking out on any tree. 
The wood was strong and hinges seem to hold well.
I had saw dust blowing into my face at times and did not at any time experience any irritation.

I shot the homeowner a good price to chip the brush and clean up, but he wanted to clean up the mess his self. I did take the trunk home. I'll see how it burns next winter.

Thanks to all who had valuable input for this thread.

here are a few pics of the job.


----------



## Redbull (Jan 31, 2006)

Looks like a great job. One thing I'd like to point out if you don't mind. In the pic where you are taking out the top, does anyone else think it might have been a good idea to tag it and finish the cut with a handsaw while the chainsaw is put away? Just something to ponder. I prefer to have my saw put away when a large top/block is going over in case something goes wrong.
It takes i few more seconds but it's safer. Good job, glad everything went well.


----------



## skwerl (Jan 31, 2006)

You look very comfortable throwing that top, David. Great job. The guys who seem to get hurt the quickest are the ones too scared to think about what they are doing. Looks like you are quite methodical in your climbing.


----------



## clearance (Jan 31, 2006)

David, good for you. Brandon, to answer your question, no.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Jan 31, 2006)

Hmmm....I have only read about discussion of finishing cuts with hand saw.... I don't think I have ever tried using handsaw to finish back cut.


On the top cut in the pic I put about 45 deg face cut.....then on back cut I like to cut in until I see that the saw kerf is starting to open then I will thin up hinge so there is little or no catapult action then pull saw out away from body.....a saw can easily be dropped to ground in emergency.

That could be a good Poll.....how many use hand saws to finish topping cuts.


----------



## Redbull (Jan 31, 2006)

It depends on the size of the top too as well as lean, but if your notch and back cut are ok than you chouldn't have any problems. When in doubt though, tag it and finish with a handsaw. I'm not saying you did anything wrong,the pic just made me think.


----------



## skwerl (Jan 31, 2006)

Thinking is good, it keeps us alive and healthy.


----------



## Redbull (Jan 31, 2006)

skwerl said:


> Thinking is good, it keeps us alive and healthy.



Yeah, I noticed my life started to turn around when I started doing that "thinking" thing. Maybe it was my age, but I just won't do the things I used to do even 5 years ago.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Jan 31, 2006)

TreeJunkie said:


> I love the competition in K>C>lllll






Treejunkie,
I'm not sure where you were going with all your comments in this thread, but you seam to me like someone with a big head.

David


----------



## Tree Frog (Jan 31, 2006)

Thanks for the pics, that was a great conclusion in the sycamore saga.


----------



## TreeJunkie (Jan 31, 2006)

looks great!  



















:spam:


----------



## Davidsinatree (Feb 1, 2006)

cool...


----------



## Mr_Brushcutter (Feb 1, 2006)

Bit off topic but this seems the place to talk about Sycamores. How well do they respond to pollarding? Been offered a job pollarding this 40' and i just wanted to know how the tree would respond. For the spot the tree is in a pollard would probally be the best management technique.


----------



## TreeJunkie (Feb 1, 2006)

How come you chose to perform the work on a Sunday? Do you do trees on the weekends only??? Part-timer???


----------



## pmuscato (Feb 1, 2006)

I just Pollarded 7 Syc. 2 weeks ago. First time, 6'-8' cal.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Feb 1, 2006)

I have seen sycamores that have been pollarded and they look really good after new growth is established. 
I'm not saying its right or wrong....but I have noticed a few around town.


----------



## Davidsinatree (Feb 1, 2006)

Treejunkie,
There are many occasions when I work 7 work days in a row through the year.
Whats your point.


----------



## timber (Feb 1, 2006)

*sycamore trees*



Davidsinatree said:


> I will be removing these 2 sycamore trees. The customer wants them out to make room for a pool this spring. The trees are healthy, about 80' tall. About 30' of space between the trees.
> Anytime I work on a tree type that I've never climbed, I am extra cautious and want to know about tendencies of the wood...( does it break easy, is the wood brittle..etc)
> 
> What are some of the important things to know about sycamore ?
> ...


wall i know it is a hard wood
it is easy to calmb with graphs


----------



## Redbull (Feb 1, 2006)

Is the spell checker still broken? Sorry, couldn't resist. Welcome to AS, Timber!


----------



## Tree Machine (Feb 1, 2006)

Hey Timber.  Welcome!


----------



## sal b (Feb 5, 2006)

jmack said:


> sorry for going off the handle, I realize we have different standards in the industry, than most. after i posted that outburst i continued on storm cleanups. i physically placed my rope in the tree we were going to remove ( no throw bag) didnt see any visible cracks, while removing a lead over a line i felt the whole top let go with my climbing line in it , the top missed me went to the line and took that out then went tight on my line dragging me, i had my flipline around the lead i was working on which prevented me from sailing with the top to the drive way below at that moment as i pulled slack out of my vt to let the top down and take the weight off me i realized that if i had found it impractical to place a secondary line in.... anyway happy to be here, clearance if it works for you to be untied at 100' go for it.


 pics of that storm damage


----------

