# long term stihl RDR carbide chain review



## imagineero (Dec 19, 2011)

After searching the net I found very little information available on stihls RDR (rapid duro rescue) carbide chain, part number 3944 000 0072. There are a few reviews out there on the standard RD carbide chain, but a few anecdotal posts about the RDR being 10x better thn RD got me wondering. It sure is pricey, list price in Aus is $580, I think list in the states is around $350. I picked mine up for $480, and I think you can get then stateside for around $300 if you look around. It's a lot of money to put down for a single loop of chain so I thought it was worthwhile posting a long term review of this chain for others. I intend to post to this thread throughout the life of the chain.

First, a little background on myself. I run a full time tree business and try to stay as far as I can away from stumps. I really don't enjoy doing them. I ended up buying a grinder this year just because you need to do the stumps to win the tree work and I havent had much luck with sub contracting my stumps out. The guys who have done it have been very hit and miss, cant tie them down for a quote, sometimes dont clean up, damage pipes and wont repair them etc. This ends up hurting my reputation and costing me money. So I bought the grinder and figure I dont mind doing stumps at cost, because trees are where I earn my dollars. I still sub out my larger stumps. 

2 or 3 times I year I get a tree with a stump so awful it sends shivers down my spine. You can read about one such episode here;

http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/168818.htm

There are a couple of pics in that link but you have to click on the links as I didnt know how to embed pics at the time. I've tried most of the tricks that others have tried, plus a few more. Stump grinders, high pressure petrol powered water blasters, axes, sawzalls, circular saws, shovels and picks, blowers, etc etc. It's hard to get hold of dynamite in aus. I've destroyed a hired stump grinder once, and gone through a whole lot of teeth. Did I mention I hate stump removal? It's a filthy thankless task, with unpleasant surprises at every turn. What I also do is save up my old chains for stumping. Usually when they get down to their very last sharpen I throw them in my stumping bucket. They get one go on a stump and then go in the bin. Changing out 10 or 15 chains in a day sure gets dull, and sometimes you do run out of stumping chains and have to use new ones. I was going to give the RD chain a go but kept reading reports of it not being that great, and the cutters snapping off. Then along came RDR.

This chain comes as the standard on the 460R saw pictured below.







I'm not that familiar with the innards of this saw, the adjustable sleeve is pretty obvious, there's extra filtration I think, a screen at the front, and claims of better torque at mid revs. It has a bigger pull start handle, ¾ wrap handle and a scrench holder. The RDR chain as far as I know comes only as a 20” pre-made length in 3/8” .063 gauge. There was no information available on them in aus as nobody had ordered one before, so there may be other options available. I plonked down my hard earned and played the waiting game.

Here's a promo vid of the 460R saw and RDR chain. It doesnt really show a lot of detail

[video=youtube;hbfecKtZHR4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbfecKtZHR4[/video]

More to come soon

Shaun


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## zogger (Dec 19, 2011)

Interesting and thanks for starting a long term review. These are about my fav threads. subscribe.


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## Slamm (Dec 19, 2011)

While I look forward to your review of this RDR chain, I might suggest to those that are interested in a heavier duty chain, but don't want to pay such a high cost, that they try .404 Semi-Chisel, as it is extremely durable and the cost is only a few dollars more than a regular 3/8" chain, but the durability is a large percentage higher.

Again, not trying to take away from your review of this RDR chain, but it is a major load on the wallet, and wanted to offer a very good alternative to it for those that get shocked by the cost ...... as I was.

Sam


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## ale (Dec 19, 2011)

Looks like a nice start to a great thread. Thanks for sharing. Always wondered about those chains.


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## mlh29 (Dec 19, 2011)

I wanted to chime in, not trying to crap on your thread.

I own the 460 rescue saw. The depth guard is optional. 
Main difference in r versus non rescue is= rescue has the high output oiler, 3/4 wrap handle, bigger clutch cover with chip deflector,
also has a guard over front of muffler to prevent melting stuff.

My saw came with the rdr chain, 20 ich bar 3/8x.063.
I never used the rdr chain/ never will immediately switched over to regular 3/8x.63 full chisel chain.

Man wish I would of known someone is looking for the chain. I would sell it cheap.. ship anywhere needed.. 

Looking forward to a report on it. Good luck


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## JDNicol (Dec 19, 2011)

Rapid Duro Rescue (3/8, .063);

16" 3944 000 0060
18" 3944 000 0066
20" 3944 000 0072

25 ft roll; 3944 000 0410


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## maico490 (Dec 19, 2011)

mlh29 said:


> I wanted to chime in, not trying to crap on your thread.
> 
> I own the 460 rescue saw. The depth guard is optional.
> Main difference in r versus non rescue is= rescue has the high output oiler, 3/4 wrap handle, bigger clutch cover with chip deflector,
> ...



Not wishing to be rude but if you didn't need the special chain why did you buy a rescue saw?


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## Slamm (Dec 19, 2011)

There is a decent amount of mark up on those RDR chains, I can get them for in the low $200's, but still thats a good chunk of money for one chain, and like I wrote earlier, I think the hot ticket is some .404 semi-chisel, that stuff is super tough and is only a few buck more expensive than 3/8" chains.

Sam


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## Winchester356 (Dec 19, 2011)

Its terrible that Stihl puts flippy caps on the rescue saw. It would be bad if the rescue saw suddenly quit running because the defective plastic peice of junk flippy cap leaked out all the gas when it was most needed.


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## flashhole (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not adding anything to this thread ... way outclassed by you guys ... just want to keep current on the information. Great thread.


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## young (Dec 19, 2011)

got 2 brand new 20in loops just setting here. should have put up a wtb.


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## justme23005 (Dec 19, 2011)

young said:


> got 2 brand new 20in loops just setting here. should have put up a wtb.



How much Shipped to 12474?


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## mlh29 (Dec 20, 2011)

maico490 said:


> Not wishing to be rude but if you didn't need the special chain why did you buy a rescue saw?



Well to be 100% honest. I was trying to support a few local businesses. Originally was checking out he local dealers for a 441 or 460 r model saw. 3/4 wrap big clutch cover etc. 

At the time had a husky 350 (I had not had a saw in many years and bought a house with a wood burner.. saw was a return at lowes that I got f or 100 and looked like new.. had a repair tag on it that said hard to start and said fixed with new spark) I ran it for about 6 months and was very unhappy with itart( wouldnt oil for ####, was very very hard to start). Was looking to upgrade.. Didnt have any husky dealers near that I could tolerate.. Had had stihls in my youth and worked at a stihl dealer while in high school) 
Got set on a 361 or 441//
All local dealers would have to order the 361 or 441( none of any style in stock at the time) and most dont stock any pro or big saws. Walked into a dealer/ kubota shop ( own a kubota and needed a few small parts) that I had never been in before while on a motorcycle outing.. after basically being told by 3 other dealers that it would take forever( a month or more as they just placed their orders etc) to get a saw. 

Asked this dealer if he had any bigger stihls with a wrap handle bar as he had a pretty good inventory of dusty saws... From small all the way to a pair of ms660's. 
He told me he had one saw with a wrap but it was getting sent back as the customer special ordered it and didnt pay for it( a local volunteer fire dept voulunteer ordered it in with a hand shake to pay, without ever getting purchase approved, they didnt pay and dealer was stuck with it). I asked what it was he said a ms460 with a special chain and other stuff. I said how much $ . He explained to me he didnt want to pay shipping back to his supplier/ restock fees etc and that it was more than I prob wanted.. He brought out the box opened it up, saw the big dawgs, big clutch cover, wrap bar and d ring pull start( cut alot in winter with gloves) Told him I wanted an extra bar, reg chains for it etc.. give me a price.. deal was made and I owned it on the spot. He told me I was the first guy to ask for a 460 with a 16 bar ( told him was just cutting firewood which is true and at the time was cutting beech and ash all under 18") and then made a comment on my vtx 1800 that I was riding.. Something about overkill and he wasnt gonna take the saw back if it were too big.. 

was a pia riding my mc home that day with a stihl in a backpack with 2 bars hanging out.. 4 chains and a six pack of oil.... But had a smile that renews itself everytime I fire it up. Week later sold the 350 on craigslist and bought a ms361 from another small dealer.. with a 20 inch es bar. Found this site about same timre and a few weeks later bought another nib ms 361 for a spare.. as they were discontinued. Never used it so after 12 months sold it to a local pro that was looking for one. Picked up a like new ms260 pro a day later and now have my 3 saw plan covered.. So that is why I ended up with a rescue saw.


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## young (Dec 20, 2011)

justme23005 said:


> How much Shipped to 12474?



pmed


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## David (saltas) (Dec 20, 2011)

subscribing 

seen them in the wishbook

I did a job the other day and the stump was dirty, was not told it was a stump. Blunted a good chain and I was being as economical as I know how, Wished I had gone home and gotten a smaller saw (cheaper chain) with a worn out chain........

I cannot ever imagine paying for a RDR


I'm interested in how this works out for you.


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## imagineero (Dec 20, 2011)

So the chain arrived a few days back. I guess I was a little disapointed, at the price I was envisioning a bejewelled hand crafted black walnut case lined with crushed velvet, but it came in a standard stihl chain box.






The box did have some instructions on the back specific to RDR sharpening though






and a lot of warnings about the dangers of chains and chainsaws






The dealer was kind of hesitant to sell me the chain though I do a lot of business there. They said that stihl australia had given them very strict instructions that they could only be fitted to rescue saws, and could not be used on standard chainsaws. I think in the end they were kind of curious to see what one looked like themselves so they went ahead and ordered it.

The cutters look pretty industrial. As you can see from the box the sharpening angles are pretty far out from those of most other chains; 85 degrees on the head, and 15 on the vice. Raker depth is very minimal. Having a close look at the cutter, you can see where the money was spent. The steel cutter has been milled down, and a carbide top milled to mate it. There's a fair bit of machining in this as the surface is curved. It gives an enormous amount of surface area for the soldered joint, you'd have a hard time snapping one of these carbide tips off. Take a look at the join between the two.


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## imagineero (Dec 20, 2011)

This is quite a bit different from the standard RD chain which you can see pictured below. I dont have an RD chain so I pilfered these pics off the net. You can see that the soldered surface is a lot smaller, and the carbide portion is really more of an insert that doesnt run the full length of the cutter. Snapped off teeth is the most common complaint I've seen for the RD chain, and the second image shows a chain with the tooth snapped off. I got this image from AS. You can see that the way the tooth is attached is completely different from the RDR. Instead of a machined 'top surface' of a cutter, they've put a little rebate in the side plate, and a backstop on the original cutter. It's not much surface area, so I guess teeth snapping off is pretty predictable if you're going to expose them to hard wear










Shown below are a couple pics of the chain with a 3/8” .063 carlton A3 chain for comparison. Not very different in dimension though the RDR is a little wider in the tooth. It's not much taller though. There doesnt look to be anything too special about the drive links and tie straps etc though I'm kind of curious to know what base chassis they mounted the carbide tooth on. You can see though that quite a lot of time and machining has gone into the construction of this chain. The carbide cutter itself has a similar profile to a semi chisel chain – so it has been machined on the top and bottom. Machining carbide doesnt come cheap. The standard RD chain is more square profiled.


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## imagineero (Dec 20, 2011)

About 10% of the cutters on my loop had soldering defects, as show in the picture below. Welding carbides and chromium carbides to mild steels is a tricky business and generally involves a 'butter weld'; welding a face on the chromium carbide, then welding the mild steel to the butter weld. This type of technique is common when fitting up wear packages of carbide teeth to 1000 tonne face shovels and big diggers. When soldering/brazing you dont have the same issues because the parent metals aren't actually melted. The soldered joint pictured shows porosity which was most likely caused by contamination of the soldered joint. This type of defect is usually a result of getting oil, dirt, or some other contaminant in the joint, or not using enough flux if the joint requires flux. Its hard to say what caused it because there is no information on the process used to join the carbide to the metal portion of the cutter but I would hazard a guess that it's not a fully automated process in an oxygen deprived environment. My guess would be that it's a semi manual process with someone actually using a torch and a rod with a jig to manually solder the bits in place. I don't think it's a serious concern, but it wouldn't be hard to get better joints.


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## c5rulz (Dec 20, 2011)

Winchester356 said:


> Its terrible that Stihl puts flippy caps on the rescue saw. It would be bad if the rescue saw suddenly quit running because the defective plastic peice of junk flippy cap leaked out all the gas when it was most needed.



 The theme that won't die.


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## imagineero (Dec 29, 2011)

Well, with a short gap between christmas and new years I've managed to find an hour to sit down, pull some pics off the camera and do a bit of typing.

The first job for the chain was a pretty awful stump. I get maybe 3 or 4 jobs a year like this and I dont look forward to them. Big stumps I refer to guys with big stump grinders. My machine is just a 20hp stump humper – self propelled and great for stumps up to 2', but not a big machine by anyones standards. 

You know the site is going to be bad news when there's a 25 foot ladder involved. This particular site had a stump about 20' down from ground level next to a house. The photo doesn't really show that the stump is on a small ledge which then drops off sharply and becomes a slope that goes all the way down to the river. The ledge is bedrock. The owner had tried a lot of companies to get them to remove the stump so he could do a building extension, everybody had said no. There was no access for a crane, and even if there was the ledge was too precarious to drop a stump grinder down there. Everything would have to be taken away. Tree companies had looked at it and said no. In the end, the owner spent 6 weeks excavating it by hand down to the bedrock (dug out about 3' of sandy rock filled soil) and bucketed it down to the slope below, then hired a chainsaw for a few days and blunted a lot of chains and got nowhere. The entire stump shown in the photo was originally underground to the height of the retaining wall beside it.






The only good news for us was that he'd spent all those weeks excavating by hand. The sandy rock filled soil sitting on top of bedrock was bad news, and the stump itself was full of sand and rocks. It's hard to put a figure on a removal like this, but it's pretty easy to start at $1,000 and work up from there. In the past I've used upwards of 20 chains trying to cut out stumps like this. 






We put the chain on an 044 with a fresh engine and plenty of pulling power and set to work. Started making cuts in the roots, some as little as 2”, the bigger ones about 18”x14”. Some were submerged in sand, some had grown over rocks. Most were sitting on top of the bedrock, and I ended up digging a few trenches right through the rock with the chain. 

The chain cuts in a very different way from normal chain. It doesn't throw chip, it grinds. The biggest surprise is that you cant dross cut with it in the normal sense. If you lay it across a log and try to start cutting it will just start smoking and throw nothing, not even dust. If you lean on the digs it grabs and stalls. I thought the 044 might have been not enough saw, so we put it onto a snellerised 660 with a 7 pin rim. Same story. You have to use the chain pretty much the way they do in the rescue vids – the tip 5” of the bar only. I think this is a result of the weird geometry of the chain. You have to use that top few inches, and 'saw' across the cut in bigger cuts. When you use it this way, it's very aggressive! It really wants to pull the saw right out of your hands. And it does cut reasonably fast. It's more like trying to cut through a log with a grinding disk on an angle grinder than a normal chainsaw chain though....






I got used to the technique after a while though it's a bit disconcerting. We ended up making 25-30 cuts through roots, in the sand, and cutting through rocks as well. Then we had to rip the barrel up. The carbide chain was tedious here, so we used it to cut through all the rock/sand encrusted outer layers of the barrel then switched to another saw with a normal chain. It saved a lot of chains and time that way. 






The we ran out of camera battery because I forgot to charge the camera the night before. The whole job took 4 hours including setup, cleanup, and getting all the gear up and down the ladder. Total saw time was about 45 minutes. The truck could not be parked close to the cliff. We ripped the stump into about 10 pieces. The whole stump and roots were lifted up with ropes by hand, there was nothing to rig mechanical advantage off. For reference, the stump/roots weight in at 950kg (about 200lbs) when dumped. Very dense hard awful wood. My initial impressions of the chain were a bit disappointing. I was really surprised that you couldnt cross cut with it at all but had to use a sort of continuous bore cut technique. Will look at changing the cutter geometry. The toughness of the chain was impressive though.... 






No discernable wear. We cut through lots of sand and rock impregnated wood as well as cutting sand and cutting rocks. The chain stretched quite a lot during use. I guess I adjusted it 8-10 times. Each time it was hanging about 1/2” off the bar. That's a lot of stretch! If it keeps up I might have to take a link out of it. It's already beyond the half way point of the adjuster on the saw on the first use.

Shaun


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## flashhole (Dec 29, 2011)

I bet that homeowner was glad you took the job. Did you get an "after" pic?


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## imagineero (Dec 29, 2011)

He agreed so quickly to the price that I instantly had that sinking feeling that I had charged too little. There was almost a 'negative hesitation', like he'd said yes before I even said the price. I didn't get an after photo because the batter ran flat. We took the whole lot though, left only bedrock. It was hard hard work, but the chain did well and saved a lot of time. 

I get my chains for only $3 or $4 each from my local hire shop. Sometimes even less. They put a new chain on every saw they hire out and quite a lot come back in good condition not even really needing a sharpen. Some are completely trashed though. They are all carlton chains. At that price, $100 worth of chains is a lot of chains to use on a stump... like 30 chains. Still, there's a lot of time involved in changing out 30 chains. 

By comparison, list price for a 20" stihl chain is over $50 in aus.
Shaun


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## Stihlman441 (Dec 29, 2011)

Rep sent, good stuff mate.


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## galde (Dec 29, 2011)

I lucked into a bucketfull of damaged RD chains a while back that a fire dept. was throwing out after they were quoted a price on repairing the chains. They were all 60-link and I found enough good teeth to transplant to make a dozen or so 72-link chains. I grind them (with diamond wheel or dremel bit) a little less aggressive than RM and they cut much slower than sharp RM or RD, but I have lost very few tooth inserts. The inserts come off more readily when they have been ground back a lot, as there is less surface area for the joint. The inserts will stand up to a lot of dirt and sand, but they peel off if snagged on hard steel, such as high-tensile small diameter fence wire. They will cut limestone, but not silica-bearing stone.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Dec 29, 2011)

imagineero said:


> ......The chain cuts in a very different way from normal chain. It doesn't throw chip, it grinds. The biggest surprise is that you cant dross cut with it in the normal sense. If you lay it across a log and try to start cutting it will just start smoking and throw nothing, not even dust. If you lean on the digs it grabs and stalls. I thought the 044 might have been not enough saw, so we put it onto a snellerised 660 with a 7 pin rim. Same story. You have to use the chain pretty much the way they do in the rescue vids – the tip 5” of the bar only. I think this is a result of the weird geometry of the chain. You have to use that top few inches, and 'saw' across the cut in bigger cuts....Shaun



Sounds like how a regular chain can be 'made' to cut if the depth gauges are too high.


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## David (saltas) (Dec 29, 2011)

leave the geometry alone 

use it as designed, cause it works that way

You may make an expensive lesson for your self if you get it wrong

Rep for your investment and your time to show us


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## imagineero (Dec 30, 2011)

David (saltas) said:


> leave the geometry alone
> 
> use it as designed, cause it works that way
> 
> ...



Yeah it's true that it works as designed, but I'm not using it as it was designed. I'm not cutting through steel or armoured glass ;-) It isn't really working too well for me as it is, so I'm going to start off putting a little more top plate angle, a little more head angle and take the rakers down. Yeah it's a bit of coin to put out for a chain, but it's just a chain. 

Like the above poster said, normal chain would cut about the same if it was sharpened like that. 85/15/0 is pretty steep. I think another poster somewhere else said that you can cut through steel ok with .404 sharpened to 85/20/0. I'm going to take it to 75/20/0 and see how that goes, plus take the rakers down a bit. If that doesnt do much better then I'll go a little further... maybe 70/25/0.

Worst case scenario you trash the chain. The good thing about the RDR is that the cutter is very well stuck on compared to the RD, it runs full length and you can probably use it right to the end of the cutter. It also has a much bigger piece of carbide. You could always take it back to the stock settings and lose a bit of chain. Never tries never knows ;-)

Shaun


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## imagineero (Dec 30, 2011)

Well, 
I thought I'd do something a little more time efficient and do a video on the next job. We did this one just before the end of the year. It was a good idea except my groundie ran the camera and he didnt really show what I was pointing at, plus he was too far away or had his finger over the mic or something so you can't hear a damn thing I'm saying. Back to typing I guess....

The job is another building site, a lot of them I get are like this. If you want to get this work and have the gear to do it, it isn't hard. Just pass your card out to builders and plumbers in your area, they'll call. I don't actively look for this sort of work but if someone calls and the price is right, I take it on. 

This one was a palm right up the back of the property in a well to do area. Was originally in a raised garden bed about 2' off the ground. Someone else did the palm and cut it to ground level. The builders have then removed the retaining wall and excavated the garden bed down to ground level by hand. No access for a digger or large stump grinder and the owners wanted to keep their lawn nice. They wanted to remove the stump down to below ground for a slab to go down for a cabana or something.

The ground was all clay, sticky as you like. The overall mass of roots/clay/trunk was about 4 1/2' diameter and 4' tall. We did quite a bit of cutting before starting the video and ended up taking it out in about 15 big chunks. My grinder is only a 20hp stump humper. It's a great grinder for tight areas and self propelled but not very powerful. If I had a big grinder (or if one could get into the yard) then grinding the whole stump would have been a better option. In the pic we're down to the last 2 chunks. I cut the stump in 2 'levels', and gridded up each level into 9 then cut each chunk out. The chunks still needed 2 guys to pick up.

[video=youtube_share;vl8mJG1tPcI]http://youtu.be/vl8mJG1tPcI[/video]

The chain was on the snellerised 660, 7 pin rim. You can see how the saw bogs down easy, looks like I'm leaning on it in the vid but I'm using a very light touch. At the end I thought it was bogged, but the chain had actually skipped over the nose and jammed. As with the first job there was a lot of stretch, like needed adjusting every couple of cuts. It had been tensioned before the cut but stretched enough to jump mid cut. Stretch has been a real problem.

You can sort of making out what I'm trying to say about having to continuously plunge cut with the section near the nose of the bar, I can see how this chain would work well with the special bar cover on the rescue saws. I think the chain was sharpened from the factory to cut things 'edge on' rather than cross cut... like in the factory demo vid, they are cutting thin sheet materials like sheet metal, glass etc. A normal cutter geometry would end up chipped or ripped off cutting materials this way. I'm hoping it will become more usable with different geometry.

[video=youtube;YlBsfVOvKMY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlBsfVOvKMY[/video]

In the end we got 'er done, no noticeable wear on the chain. Grinding the rest of the stump turned out pretty awful, haven't really done much stumping in clay before. Palm is so soft it's usually just a quick buzz out but the chip kept jamming into the clay and rolling into balls. The clay also bogged the machine down fast, and clogged the wheel cover up so the wheel couldn't travel. Had to stop and clean it out a few times. All up the job took about 3 hours. The saw work was about 15 min and saved a lot of time.

I took the chain and bar off the saw and gave it a clean off, the side plate has no sharpness to it out of the box which might be part of the problem. It ends up ripping fibres rather than severing them. I had it on a standard 20" stihl E roller nose bar and it has pretty much mashed the hell out of the underside of the nose in short order. I've ran the chain for about 3 or 4 tanks of fuel and this is the result;







it wore a deep groove in the rails, deeper than it looks. The wear is all in the nose which is a difficult area to true up due to the sprocket being there you cant use a file in the normal way. you can run a file lengthwise, or a dremel but the results are less than ideal. I had a dig round through my bars because I remembered having a tsumura solid bar with a hard nose but it turned out to be 25". I've put the chain on a solid oregon bar with a sprocket nose which I think is a bit harder than the stihl. Will see on the next job.

This kind of cutting is hard on saws and bars. 

Shaun


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## imagineero (Dec 30, 2011)

galde said:


> I lucked into a bucketfull of damaged RD chains a while back that a fire dept. was throwing out after they were quoted a price on repairing the chains. They were all 60-link and I found enough good teeth to transplant to make a dozen or so 72-link chains. I grind them (with diamond wheel or dremel bit) a little less aggressive than RM and they cut much slower than sharp RM or RD, but I have lost very few tooth inserts. The inserts come off more readily when they have been ground back a lot, as there is less surface area for the joint. The inserts will stand up to a lot of dirt and sand, but they peel off if snagged on hard steel, such as high-tensile small diameter fence wire. They will cut limestone, but not silica-bearing stone.



Nice score on the chains! Does it take long to do them with the dremel diamonds? I had a go at doing a normal chain with a dremel once but I couldnt get the hang of it. Do you know your approximate sharpening measurements? A pic of a sharpened cutter would be greatly appreciated.

What are you using your chains to cut and how has the experience been for you?

Thanks,
Shaun


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## zogger (Dec 30, 2011)

*proly a dumb question*



imagineero said:


> Well, with a short gap between christmas and new years I've managed to find an hour to sit down, pull some pics off the camera and do a bit of typing.
> 
> The first job for the chain was a pretty awful stump. I get maybe 3 or 4 jobs a year like this and I dont look forward to them. Big stumps I refer to guys with big stump grinders. My machine is just a 20hp stump humper – self propelled and great for stumps up to 2', but not a big machine by anyones standards.
> 
> ...




I'll ask it anyway though. In a situation like that, why not use a gas cut off saw? Just keep cross cutting it every which way as deep as you can, then pry/bust the chunks out with a six foot pry bar and a pick, then go at it again. Those things cut concrete and cast iron pipe, seems like they could be used for that sort of dirty and rocky job.


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## David (saltas) (Dec 30, 2011)

I see what you mean Shaun

that chain is going to be the wrong pitch before you wear the cutters out

I can see you with a chain beaker and spinner making two skip tooth chains out of that one before this is over


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## galde (Dec 30, 2011)

imagineero said:


> Nice score on the chains! Does it take long to do them with the dremel diamonds? I had a go at doing a normal chain with a dremel once but I couldnt get the hang of it. Do you know your approximate sharpening measurements? A pic of a sharpened cutter would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> What are you using your chains to cut and how has the experience been for you?
> 
> ...


I had to climb a pretty long learning curve before I liked using the Dremel-type tools. I will list a few observations for whatever they are worth. The Dremel models need to be the variable-speed type with ball bearings. They need to be slowed to about 12K or 15K RPM. If the Dremel is fixed-speed, Harbor Freight sells a nice speed control that can handle up to 15 amps. Use a foot switch so both hands can be dedicated to grinder placement and control. The Dremel saw chain guide (like the Granberg or Stihl guides on their 12V units) is worthless since it doesn't straddle the bit, and it is impossible to keep a uniform hook. The best guides are the ones on the 12V grinders sold by Oregon and many others, since they rest on both the tooth and the depth gauge. I plan to re-engineer the Dremels to use the Oregon-style guides. I use only the diamond bits, whether for carbide or steel teeth. They run much cooler and keep their size and shape. My chain vise (for both filing and Dremel grinding) is an old Stihl wide nose sprocket without the sprocket. A bolt through the end-most rivet hole tightens the rails to clamp the chain. An illuminated magnifier (another HF item) with a 100 watt compact fluorescent lamp is mounted above. Wear a good dust mask. A carbide resharpen takes a little less than twice the time for steel teeth. I never put a stone or a file to a tooth until it is squeaky clean. I now have a USC so that is easier and quicker. I like the carbide chains for stumps and wood that has spent some time on the ground. I find that my stump technique makes for less work than the cleanup usually required after the stump grinder leaves. I dig down a few inches all the way around the stump and clean away dirt. If the stump is 2 ft or larger, I make 2 vertical noodle cuts like an X. I then horizontal plunge cut from my dug line toward the center with a downward slant and pivot the bar until it approaches the dug line, and next make a fresh plunge to the center,.etc... When finished There is a dished-out area that I fill with dirt and move on.
One of these days I will see if my camera still works and I will post some pics...


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## imagineero (Dec 30, 2011)

zogger said:


> I'll ask it anyway though. In a situation like that, why not use a gas cut off saw? Just keep cross cutting it every which way as deep as you can, then pry/bust the chunks out with a six foot pry bar and a pick, then go at it again. Those things cut concrete and cast iron pipe, seems like they could be used for that sort of dirty and rocky job.



It's an idea that has been tried before, but I havent personally tried it. I dont have a gas cut off saw, but you can hire them in aus for $100~$150/day depending on the size of the saw. They measure the blade before hire and charge you for wear on top of the hire. From what I've read the standard diamond blade doesnt do much good in wood, but there is a heavier duty blade available that has big chunks of carbide in it. The blade was $400 last time I checked. You could pick up a good used demo saw for about $800 in aus, new I think they're about $2500. If i had a gas demo saw I might be tempted to buy one of the expensive blades to give it a go but probably not.

The other problem with the demo saws is that the usable amount of blade ends up only being about 4 or 5 inches depending on the size of balde you've got. You can hack and slash away, knock some out with an axe and keep going, but that's starting to sound like a lot of work. The other problem is the overall size of the cutting head of the saw can be as big as 20" depending on which model you have. That means no tight access, and you wont be able to get in under roots to undercut, or between roots etc. I've tried using circular saws with mixed success for similar reasons. You obviously wont be able to use this tool for ripping logs/stumps either, it's roots only.

I've looked at these a few times;
The arbortech petrol allsaw

[video=youtube;aIzjQXk-Veo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIzjQXk-Veo[/video]
[video=youtube;WOdNkncR9i0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdNkncR9i0[/video]

It's an australian company, their website is here;

Arbortech

I figured if you got one you could probably make good money on it doing stumps, roots and some demo work. Even the biggest demo saws cant cut all the way through a double brick wall from one side. I could never get pricing on one because I dont think they made it to production but I'd expect pricing to be somewhere around $5k including the saw. No idea on blade life/price but I'd be expecting 'high, and not a lot'. They did go into production with a much smaller electric version of this saw that retails for $950. It doesnt come with the masonary type blade from memory, only a wood blade.

An interesting looking tool that could have some application, bu will obviously never be even half as good as a chainsaw. Looking at the mechanism I'd guess they had a lot of reliability issues.

As an aside, it's surprising how often I get a call from someone asking me to cut a root out of a tree that's still standing so they can put a path in or whatever. I'm talking major roots on large tree, right next to the tree. Of course I say no which surprises them. What do they think is holding the tree up? They usually end up going ahead anyway with axes or whatever. 

I try to explain it each time, that the tree might not fall over today but with the right combination of wind/rain/time that tree will fall over and destroy their fence/house/kill their kids etc. They try to say they will accept all responsibility and I should just cut the root. I tell them that would never stand up in court, and that as an expert I would be liable for the consequences of all my work since they are obviously not competent to decide what is safe or not. Oh well.

Shaun


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## galde (Dec 30, 2011)

Shaun I see from your pic of the RDR chain that it has the humped bumper link with the extended tail. I am curious about how far the bumper tail extends relative to the top plate edge when the chain goes around the nose of the bar. Before I try to bore cut with RM safety chain, I grind off enough of the bumper tail to match it with the depth gauge as it goes around the bar nose. This makes for a smooth bore cut that feeds easily. I got onto this while modifying various chains for carving with dime tip and quarter tip carving bars. You can use a depth measuring gauge on the bar nose to compare the distance from tail tip to nose rail with distance from top plate edge to nose rail. My ultimate smooth boring chain is the triple hump safety chain with the bumper tail contour-ground to the same height as the depth gauge. I do this with the chain mounted on the bar. I manually advance the chain past a grinder positioned at the tip of the bar. I use this method to optimize tooth geometry for carving.


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## zogger (Dec 30, 2011)

imagineero said:


> It's an idea that has been tried before, but I havent personally tried it. I dont have a gas cut off saw, but you can hire them in aus for $100~$150/day depending on the size of the saw. They measure the blade before hire and charge you for wear on top of the hire. From what I've read the standard diamond blade doesnt do much good in wood, but there is a heavier duty blade available that has big chunks of carbide in it. The blade was $400 last time I checked. You could pick up a good used demo saw for about $800 in aus, new I think they're about $2500. If i had a gas demo saw I might be tempted to buy one of the expensive blades to give it a go but probably not.
> 
> The other problem with the demo saws is that the usable amount of blade ends up only being about 4 or 5 inches depending on the size of balde you've got. You can hack and slash away, knock some out with an axe and keep going, but that's starting to sound like a lot of work. The other problem is the overall size of the cutting head of the saw can be as big as 20" depending on which model you have. That means no tight access, and you wont be able to get in under roots to undercut, or between roots etc. I've tried using circular saws with mixed success for similar reasons. You obviously wont be able to use this tool for ripping logs/stumps either, it's roots only.
> 
> ...



Ya, it was just a thought. I have no idea how many styles of circular saw blade there are, just thought there might be one that would fit the bill. Renting it, no, but if you owned one and could figure in the cost of blades to the job quote..just a thought, one more tool to maybe use, maybe not on the entire stump, but a good chunk or chunks of it.

Makes ya appreciate the olden days when all they had was oxen, picks, prybars and dude power. They got a heckuva lot done back then without burning any gasoline or diesel...



That saw you linked to is pretty interesting.


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## imagineero (Dec 31, 2011)

galde said:


> Shaun I see from your pic of the RDR chain that it has the humped bumper link with the extended tail. I am curious about how far the bumper tail extends relative to the top plate edge when the chain goes around the nose of the bar. Before I try to bore cut with RM safety chain, I grind off enough of the bumper tail to match it with the depth gauge as it goes around the bar nose. This makes for a smooth bore cut that feeds easily. I got onto this while modifying various chains for carving with dime tip and quarter tip carving bars. You can use a depth measuring gauge on the bar nose to compare the distance from tail tip to nose rail with distance from top plate edge to nose rail. My ultimate smooth boring chain is the triple hump safety chain with the bumper tail contour-ground to the same height as the depth gauge. I do this with the chain mounted on the bar. I manually advance the chain past a grinder positioned at the tip of the bar. I use this method to optimize tooth geometry for carving.



This is the first chain I've ever owned with this super ultra safety bumper. Sure does look weird. The only chain I've bought that had a safety bumper on it was the new 3/8LP full chisel stuff for the 200t's, but like most other guys out there I ground the safety bumper completely off with a dremel.

Shown below is a pic of the bumper on the nose






As you can see it's pretty full on safety. It still bores ok, but I'd rather use it for cross cutting.

I drew the pic below to represent cutting a bit of thin sheet material like sheet glass or sheetmetal. You can see how the material (drawn with a black line) drops right into the gullet. With this sort of material I think you'd be smashing/tearing it apart rather than cutting it. I guess thats the reason for the very steep cutter geometry and shallow rakers. The big fully filled in safety bumper makes sense in an application like that too. I might think about completely removing the fully filled bumper and trying to use this as a regular chain. Or at least grinding it down quite a lot. Maybe I'd have less drag/stretch that way.






Finally, a pic representing how things work with the whole 'angled saw cut' that I've had to use to get the chain cutting at all. If you take a look at the pic you can see I've drawn a semi circle representing a log/root. You can see that at the angle I'm using the saw only 2 teeth are cutting at a time, and that really each tooth is cutting its own 'ledge'. Cutting at an angle like this creates an unusually large fake raker depth, as you can see from the steps I drew in. The more angle you put on it, the bigger the 'fake raker' depth becomes. The arrow represents the direction you are dragging the saw to make the cut.






Considering the intended design of the chain I think it's well designed. This is the sort of angle you'd be seeing on the rescue saws with the 3/4 length adjustable chain cover. With much lower rakers and reduced/removed safety bumper and a more standard cutter geometry this chain could probably cut more like a normal chain. Being able to cross cut with it would put a lot less stress on the bar and hopefully less chain stretch too. I'm going to take it in small steps and see if I can find the sweet spot. You still want it as steep as possible so the chain is durable.

Shaun


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## imagineero (Dec 31, 2011)

David (saltas) said:


> I see what you mean Shaun
> 
> that chain is going to be the wrong pitch before you wear the cutters out
> 
> I can see you with a chain beaker and spinner making two skip tooth chains out of that one before this is over



I totally agree. At the rate of stretch I've seen from the first two jobs, I'd say with one or two more uses my adjuster will be completely out of room to move. It's already about 2/3 out, and one long cut is enough to take the chain from adjusted to flapping in the breeze. I can take a link out, but as you say the mismatch between chain pitch and bar tip/saw sprocket will be a problem pretty soon. 

Would be a lot of work to take that whole chain apart and make another chain manually putting the cutters onto a fresh chassis, I dont even have a breaker/spinner or the parts to do it. I dont know which chain parts are compatible with what I have, or what chassis this chain is built on. Sounds like something to look into though. 

The only good news is that I priced the chain into the first job I did with it, so its paid for itself. I still add a couple hundred into each job I do with it to cover wear and tear. I do the same with my grinder, I price about $40/hour for wear on the machine into the job and put that money into an account so that when the engine gives up there's money to rebuild/replace. A lot of guys dont factor their gear into their rate, or they do but they put the cash in their pocket and blow it. Then they end up not having enough funds to replace gear over time.

Shaun


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## derwoodii (Dec 31, 2011)

Great work good reports imagineero as you know I used RD carbide on root n stumps for about 6 years now and have a pretty good feel on when and where it best suits. Not used the RDR rescue stuff so its been interesting to read your thoughts.
Notes,
My RD rapid duro cost $180 plus a 18 inch bar loop so I can get 2 for 1 RDR at $400plus
Hard nose bar needed 
Yup the chain flogs out and you run out of adjustment soon so a link removal required over the chain life span.
How do you resharpen? I've got a local saw chap with a diamond wheel and he cost only about $20 per 18 inch loop.
The work kills saw bars power heads clutch n sprockets so build that $ into your costs.
I see a reasonable market for utility company's needing your skills when they come up against roots stumps in tight or tree protection tasks.
If ya need $ to pay for the chain it will go though bullet proof glass.
















I run on MS 310 18 inch hard nose bar it does whats needed. Reckon I get great $ value per chain loop way better than axe sweat and wrecking my back.


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## derwoodii (Dec 31, 2011)

Oh forgot to mention I got me one of these some months back, very handy tool for stubborn roots n splitin stumps.

The Slammer - Kiwi Super Tool. Made in New Zealand

Was about $250 per unit landed in OZ as I got 2 with same purchase the other helps tree planting chaps who are very happy with it in hard clays etc.


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## flashhole (Dec 31, 2011)

Slammerman is my new hero. Thanks for sharing. It looks like a useful tool.


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## imagineero (Dec 31, 2011)

derwoodii said:


> Great work good reports imagineero as you know I used RD carbide on root n stumps for about 6 years now and have a pretty good feel on when and where it best suits.



I had a memory tucked away somewhere that you were using carbide chain, could you throw some comments in on where it works best vs where it doesnt? 




derwoodii said:


> Hard nose bar needed
> Yup the chain flogs out and you run out of adjustment soon so a link removal required over the chain life span.



I figured hard nose was the way to go. Will have to order a bar because I dont have any hard nose in 20". Do the roller nose just seize up eventually, or do they get flogged out in the rails under the nose like my one has after only about an hours use?



derwoodii said:


> I see a reasonable market for utility company's needing your skills when they come up against roots stumps in tight or tree protection tasks.
> I run on MS 310 18 inch hard nose bar it does whats needed. Reckon I get great $ value per chain loop way better than axe sweat and wrecking my back.



Great comments! Are you getting utility work with yours? I was surprised to see you running it on such a small saw, my 660 wont push the RDR but I'm thinking it's all about the cutter geometry and extra safety bumpers which the RD chain doesnt have. Even an 044 should be more than enough saw to drive this chain, they are standard issue on a 460 after all.

I was going to ask you way back when you originally posted those root cutting pics; did they remove the tree? If not, did you get a liability waiver for cutting out such a major root on a public footpath/road?

Shaun


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## zogger (Dec 31, 2011)

*slick*



derwoodii said:


> Oh forgot to mention I got me one of these some months back, very handy tool for stubborn roots n splitin stumps.
> 
> The Slammer - Kiwi Super Tool. Made in New Zealand
> 
> Was about $250 per unit landed in OZ as I got 2 with same purchase the other helps tree planting chaps who are very happy with it in hard clays etc.



That's really cool,nice product vid as well.


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## derwoodii (Dec 31, 2011)

> I had a memory tucked away somewhere that you were using carbide chain, could you throw some comments in on where it works best vs where it doesnt?



Best on light loam sands n clays small rock pebbles are no great issue its the large road ballast or chunks of concrete that harms your edge. Interesting different tree species roots respond to RD saw chain in many ways I'm getting to know what easy and whats mean. 





> I figured hard nose was the way to go. Will have to order a bar because I don't have any hard nose in 20". Do the roller nose just seize up eventually, or do they get flogged out in the rails under the nose like my one has after only about an hours use?


Twas in 1990 I first used tungsten chain as a demo test and very impressed but then was $300 bucks a small loop & the trial ended when I found I could not get resharpened and it chewed my roller nose bar very fast. I re birthed the idea 6 - 7 years back after I found a saw sharpen service for tungsten thats cheap and works I've always used hard nose set up as seems obvious weak point.




> Great comments! Are you getting utility work with yours? I was surprised to see you running it on such a small saw, my 660 wont push the RDR but I'm thinking it's all about the cutter geometry and extra safety bumpers which the RD chain doesnt have. Even an 044 should be more than enough saw to drive this chain, they are standard issue on a 460 after all.


Started with a 029 the 310 justs right now I run chain a wee loose try it. I get weekly LG tree roots vs kerb road services and a few utility's now with help save us calls. 



> I was going to ask you way back when you originally posted those root cutting pics; did they remove the tree? If not, did you get a liability waiver for cutting out such a major root on a public footpath/road?


The debate upon the ethics & ethicacy of cutting tree roots I wrestle with almost daiiy, more often I am comfortable with mein kampf's outcome. Only rarely I say no, that tree stays or goes but I will not cut them roots. As I am more often the decision maker I don't need a waiver or permit to cut tree roots. Rightly wrongly I hypocritically ignore AS4970 Protection Of trees On Development Sites when it suits me. But use it to defend a tree which is worthy and up against poor infrastructure options and dumb ass civil engineers.


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## imagineero (Jan 2, 2012)

Over the holidays I ended up taking the chain down to 75/20/0 compared to the original 85/15/0. I also lowered the rakers quite a bit. I measured the original raker height and what I lowered them to but the numbers are out in the shed so I'll post them up on the next post. I left the big safety bumpers on for the time being but I'm thinking I'll remove them some time in the next month or so. Would be a lot of work with a dremel so I'll have to think on it a bit!

I'm doing a couple cocos palms tomorrow, one is in a raised garden bed that was lowered to ground level so it has about a foot of exposed roots. I couldnt do the stumps because there's no access for the grinder so I said I would take the exposed roots to ground level. Will be a good test for the new cutter geometry, I'm hoping it will cross cut now.

Shaun


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## olyman (Jan 2, 2012)

imagineero said:


> Over the holidays I ended up taking the chain down to 75/20/0 compared to the original 85/15/0. I also lowered the rakers quite a bit. I measured the original raker height and what I lowered them to but the numbers are out in the shed so I'll post them up on the next post. I left the big safety bumpers on for the time being but I'm thinking I'll remove them some time in the next month or so. Would be a lot of work with a dremel so I'll have to think on it a bit!
> 
> I'm doing a couple cocos palms tomorrow, one is in a raised garden bed that was lowered to ground level so it has about a foot of exposed roots. I couldnt do the stumps because there's no access for the grinder so I said I would take the exposed roots to ground level. Will be a good test for the new cutter geometry, I'm hoping it will cross cut now.
> 
> Shaun



reading about the chain stretch.. when you get a new chain,,throw it in a container,,that has bar oil in it.. presoaking the rivets........and the rest of the chain..and set the oiler as high as it will go...so you have to fill the oiler more often?...it the chain stretches less,,well..i would imagine,,the dirt enviro,,is part of the problem..


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## David (saltas) (Jan 3, 2012)

*I know the numbers are wrong ....I cant remember the no of 3/8 links on a 20" bar*

do you think the chassis links are stretching or 
are the 74 link by 2 holes 148 holes now not perfectly circular and are a bit elliptical (0.1mm longer than high) x 148 is a 14.8 mm of stretch and that = 14.8/2 of adjustment = 7.4mm

but put spread those cutters over two chassis to make a skip tooth and 74/2= 37 cutters/2chains = 18.5 18 cutters x 2holes x 0.1mm wear = 3.6mm of stretch or 1.8 mm of adjustment

Similarly the pins would be also worn and be worn more at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock than at 6 and 12 o'clock

I know making the two skip tooth's is a lot a work but you reduce the "stretch" to a 1/4 of the adjustment and have two chains so you are likely to increase the usable life to 8 times longer.

Depending on the actual cutter wear you might be able to repeat it.

If it was me I would wait until i was out of adjustment and make one skip tooth out of the chain and keep the rest of the cutters for latter.

Re the lots of work with a dremmel to remove the safety bumpers a 5 inch angle grinder with a razor blade cut of wheel will give you a big head start, with the dremmel to do the tidy up.

It would be even less work if you ever do make a skip tooth to use a chassis with out the bumper links to cut of

I know I'm sounding link a broken record, but I just got one of those feelings you might at least make an enquiry into the cost of a breaker and spinner, and the cost of rolls of Carlton chain


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## imagineero (Jan 3, 2012)

Took it to the job today and everything went well, the customer was watching everything so I felt a bit hesitant to shoot a vid about it. Will try to do another this week on a different job. 

The chain did actually cross cut with the new settings, not very well but a lot better than before. Still feels like it needs the rakers lowered a little more. Taking the safety bumper off is looking like a better option all the time. Will get some pics/vids later in the week. I wish I'd taken a vid of how it (didn't) cross cut out of the box for comparison.

Shaun


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## l3lue (Jan 17, 2012)

*Carbide Chains*



imagineero said:


> After searching the net I found very little information available on stihls RDR (rapid duro rescue) carbide chain, part number 3944 000 0072. There are a few reviews out there on the standard RD carbide chain, but a few anecdotal posts about the RDR being 10x better thn RD got me wondering. It sure is pricey, list price in Aus is $580, I think list in the states is around $350. I picked mine up for $480, and I think you can get then stateside for around $300 if you look around. It's a lot of money to put down for a single loop of chain so I thought it was worthwhile posting a long term review of this chain for others. I intend to post to this thread throughout the life of the chain.
> 
> First, a little background on myself. I run a full time tree business and try to stay as far as I can away from stumps. I really don't enjoy doing them. I ended up buying a grinder this year just because you need to do the stumps to win the tree work and I havent had much luck with sub contracting my stumps out. The guys who have done it have been very hit and miss, cant tie them down for a quote, sometimes dont clean up, damage pipes and wont repair them etc. This ends up hurting my reputation and costing me money. So I bought the grinder and figure I dont mind doing stumps at cost, because trees are where I earn my dollars. I still sub out my larger stumps.
> 
> ...




Hi Shaun I seen this thread on RDR chain so I thought I would just throw this out here , There are other companys that make ( carbide chains ) And a wider selection of uses! One my be just what your looking for ?

Here are the links to a couple of Them :

Carbide Chainsaw Chain -- Longest lasting carbide chainsaw chain! Rapco Industries

Carbide Chainsaw Chains

And Rapco says they have a chain made just for stump removal ! 

Here is what they say : Whether you are dealing with extreme cutting conditions such as fire department roof ventilation, or lighter duty applications such as firewood cutting and stump removal, Rapco has chain designed specifically for your needs. Available in nearly all standard pitches and gauges, Rapco's carbide chain fits most chainsaws and can be customized to your unique requirements.


I hope this is of use to you and many others . Blue


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## imagineero (Jan 17, 2012)

l3lue said:


> Hi Shaun I seen this thread on RDR chain so I thought I would just throw this out here , There are other companys that make ( carbide chains ) And a wider selection of uses! One my be just what your looking for ?
> 
> Here are the links to a couple of Them :
> 
> ...



Hi Blue, 
Thanks for the links. I did talk to a few other chain suppliers including the australian distributor for rapco. They are priced similar to the stihl RD chain in aus, and after talking to the rep I got the impression that they are at a similar performance level to RD. They stressed that the chain is not to be used around rocks or other hard materials and that cutters do come loose. Maybe they were just trying to reduce future disappointment but it sounded like they had received some complaints about the chain from customers.

I havent had a chance to use mine again yet. Business has been pretty good with the start of the new year but just normal tree work. I will continue to document and photograph the chain and how it performs over its life at each use but the next use may be a month or so. 

Shaun


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## StihlKiwi (Oct 24, 2012)

Did this chain hold up to use in the end?


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## imagineero (Oct 25, 2012)

I haven't got anything to add at the moment, haven't used it since the last time which I already posted on. I'll add another update to this thread every time I use it, but I'm not expecting that to be very often. I should start carrying it with me more often I guess, I have had a couple situations where it would have been helpful but it was back at the shop so I just sacrificed a chain. 

Shaun


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## derwoodii (Oct 26, 2012)

my saw still going strong and I do terrible stuff with it n the RDR chain and sadly some bad juju to trees its either they git a root hack or go all together so not always easy choice this is one of last week efforts













ahh flip what is it with hotmail it shrinks ma pictures like a cold dip does to ma,,,, anyhoo put on yer magnify glass and peer while i' try n git thee larger file...


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## derwoodii (Oct 26, 2012)

take 2 some bits here I could just lift by hand about 300mm plus dia as thats a 18 inch bar on Stihl 310,,, go on do that with an axe see how ye feel


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## imagineero (Oct 28, 2012)

I thought you were using the RD from memory, not the RDR? How do you sharpen it?

Shaun


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## derwoodii (Oct 28, 2012)

imagineero said:


> I thought you were using the RD from memory, not the RDR? How do you sharpen it?
> 
> Shaun



yes correct RD profile not the RDR rescue as its not quite needed on just dirty ol roots. I still need to get this sharpened by Saw chap with diamond wheel this costs about $22 bucks for a 18 bar inch loop. After its never as good as new but works ok till I kill it again, more often during the life of a chain I need to remove a link or so as it flogs out beyond bar adjust thread. Its great stuff but allows me to do harm to tree roots way to easy.


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## zogger (Oct 28, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> take 2 some bits here I could just lift by hand about 300mm plus dia as thats a 18 inch bar on Stihl 310,,, go on do that with an axe see how ye feel



Never run one, but...I wonder if a rented stump grinder would work better/easier/cheaper for cutting out tree root sections like that. Or a small trencher? Those I have run, they can cut some decent stuff if you are careul and watch your bite.

Anyway, with just a chainsaw, when I have done nasty dirty roots like that, I first cleaned just the area to be cut, axed the bark off, used a small garden hand shovel to get the dirt out around it, then swiped the root clean, then made the cut.


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