# Felling a Tree without a Notch...Sounds Like TROUBLE!!!!



## YUKON 659 (Feb 1, 2003)

A co-worker of mine has a tree he needs removed. It's a White Pine roughly 24" dbh, approximately 60' to 70' tall with a split trunk at about 10' to 12'. The base of the tree is about a foot from the front of his cottage, and his cottge is on a bank with an 8' to 10' drop to the shoreline. He's had a couple of local guys look at it and decided to have one of them do it. I think he's asking for trouble. Here's the problem, I think. The guy (not sure of his qualifications) wants to put 2 pull/hold lines on the tree coming off at 45 degrees to the tree and and just start back cutting on the tree as close to the ground as possible with pressure on the lines. Sounds like a classic "barber chair" waiting to happen  I've never cut or heard of a tree this large being cut without a notch, have any of you? He told my buddy the reason for doing it this way as opposed to notching the tree was " he was afraid the tree would twist if he notched it"  I thought the notch and hinge were supposed to control the direction of the fall? Am I missing something?

Jeff


----------



## Dave (Feb 1, 2003)

Jeff, the only thing you'll be missing is your co-worker when this clown drops a 70 foot white pine on him.


----------



## paul soccodato (Feb 1, 2003)

i think this is a disaster waiting to happen. 

without seeing the tree, it's hard to say the proper technique to use, but felling a tree without a notch sounds like trouble to me.

the purpose of the notch, is to allow the hinge to work properly.

the hinge is what actually steers the tree.


----------



## Newfie (Feb 1, 2003)

At least your buddy will be able to build a coffee table or something in his cottage afterthe butt of the tree slams through the wall. Hopefully he won't have to clean any brain matter off the walls.

Sounds like your buddy is flirting with disaster. Is the chucklehead doing the work insured at least?


BTW, how come he won't have you do it? You are surely more competent than this other idiot.


----------



## YUKON 659 (Feb 1, 2003)

Newfie, he showed me pictures of the tree and I considered (and I'm still considering) doing the job, unfortunately his cottage is about 150miles from where I live  I'm in the process of getting a liability insurance policy (hopefully I won't need it  )...just to be safe I'll wait until I have it before committing to the job. And I'd also wait for nicer weather...as long as I'm making the drive I may as well enjoy the cottage during the summer  

Jeff


----------



## treeman82 (Feb 1, 2003)

Jeff, tell your friend that he should get this guy's certificate of insurance and probably make sure its for at least a million and covers tree work. Then when the idiot drops the tree on his cottage... 

"Yes, hello Mr. Lawyer, some idiot just dropped a tree on my house, I would like to sue him for everything he has got. I would also like my house to be re-built bigger and nicer than it originally was. Oh, and by the way, here is the number for his insurance company and for him so that we can take his house if he isn't really insured."


----------



## preach it (Feb 1, 2003)

How bad is the split? I agree, it could very easily barber chair especially because of the split. It might be a good idea to put a chain around the split and then a proper cut. Dangerous at the least. A rope in the top to help it in the right direction, especially if it is a leaner.


----------



## Newfie (Feb 1, 2003)

*split or split??*

Jeff,

Is the trunk split as in damaged and compromised or split as in it splits into two seperate leaders(if that is the correct term) off the main trunk?


----------



## Jock (Feb 1, 2003)




----------



## YUKON 659 (Feb 1, 2003)

Newfie, yes the trunk splits into 2 seperate leaders, I should have explained this a little better in the earlier post. From the pictures he sent me there doesn't seem to be much lean. I think the tree could be taken down with a proper notch, a pull rope on a come-a-long and a "little" pressure, just in case. I'm no expert by any means but, I've read other posts about plunging or side boring the back cut, would this help to insure a safer fall of this tree? I know that this type of back cut is usually done on a heavy leaner...I'm not sure if there would be an advantage doing it on this tree. Any thoughts?


Jeff


----------



## Kevin (Feb 2, 2003)

Is it a head leaner or a back leaner?
If it's on a hill chances are it will leave the stump and could land several feet from the stump, this is a common cause of death when felling on a hill.
If it's downhill I would want a good open face notch and a hefty hinge.
Added bracing to keep the stems together on impact and don't stand anywhere close to the stump when it starts to go.
Trees have been known to jump twenty feet from the stump.
If felling the tree doesn't kill the faller the bucking could.
The shearing force in a tree that size is substantial.
There are many precautions to consider here.


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Feb 2, 2003)

Felling a tree without a notch is just an accident waiting to happen. At least he's using cables though, which is a very good method when combined with a notch.


----------



## Stumper (Feb 2, 2003)

I've been following this thread but haven't commented 'til now. I'm glad that we have the "split" clarified as codominant leaders. I find the fallers assertion that a notch might make it spin baffling. I have felled a great many trees without notching---trees under 10" in diameter -99.9% actually under 8". Larger trees need notches for maximum control and minimum risk. If the tree has a lot of included bark between the leaders (a tight crotch and/or bark ridging running too near the ground then seperation becomes a legitimate concern. I cannot see a failure to notch as a way to address that. If stem seperation is a concern then steps to prevent it should be taken(such as tying the stems together or removing them seperately intentionally). I can envision a situation that might require a shallow notch. I can't see the situation that calls for no notch. I think Yukon's initial reaction is right on target. It sounds as if this faller is incompetent.


----------



## Solace (Feb 5, 2003)

ANSI Z133.1 - 2000

9.5.14
Notches shall be used on all trees and trunks over 5 inches (12.5cm) in diameter at breast height.

9.5.15.1
The notch cut used shall be either a conventional, open faced or humboldt.

I would suggest a complete review of section 9.5


----------



## Kevin (Feb 5, 2003)

Depending on the tree. 
That rule is stupid.
Why would you waste a good milling log by cutting it so high up?
That decision should be left to the discretion of the person at the site and not some stupid rule.


----------



## Solace (Feb 5, 2003)

DBH is a measurment of the trees Diameter at Breast Height. Not a recommendation of Notch height

ANSI Z133.1 - 2000

9.5.15
Notches and backcuts shall be made at a height above the highest ground level to enable chainsaw operators to safely begin the cut, control the tree or trunk and have freedom of movement for escape.


----------



## Kevin (Feb 5, 2003)

Sorry, I misinterpreted that to read ...the notch will be made on all trees over 5 inches in diameter and at breast height.


> Notches shall be used on all trees and trunks over 5 inches (12.5cm) in diameter at breast height.




Personally, I make a notch on just about anything over 3 inches.


----------



## Stumper (Feb 5, 2003)

The 5" dbh rule isn't a bad rule but there iis plenty of room for "bending" it. My reference to 8" and 10" stuff wasn't a DBH measure rather a ground level measurement. Having said that, a lot of the trees I'm referring to were up to 7"dbh. Forest thinning work on straight pines. Slope cut, push, sever hinge, step to next tree.


----------

