# Hollow Cherry Trunks



## Newguy12358 (Apr 8, 2012)

In my area of NJ I notice that many of the larger Cherry trees have cavities in the base of the trunk and decay to the point that the inside is hollowed out, and more often infested with carpenter ants, termites, earthworms and the like. Is this typical of this species or the area? What causes this and how can it be detected or avoided early on?
Thanks Guys


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## Carburetorless (Apr 8, 2012)

Newguy12358 said:


> In my area of NJ I notice that many of the larger Cherry trees have cavities in the base of the trunk and decay to the point that the inside is hollowed out, and more often infested with carpenter ants, termites, earthworms and the like. Is this typical of this species or the area? What causes this and how can it be detected or avoided early on?
> Thanks Guys



We used to have some big cherry trees, most of them were hollow too. Never gave much thought to the cause, maybe caused by damage from people climbing the tree to get to the cherries.

The carpenter ants only go after moist wood, so they're not the cause, they just show up to eat the wood that's started to rot.


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 9, 2012)

Newguy12358 said:


> In my area of NJ I notice that many of the larger Cherry trees have cavities in the base of the trunk and decay to the point that the inside is hollowed out, and more often infested with carpenter ants, termites, earthworms and the like. Is this typical of this species or the area? What causes this and how can it be detected or avoided early on?
> Thanks Guys



To try and explain it all, on here, would be hard. It is basic tree biology. Google compartmentalization of trees (thaza big word) All trees react to things differently. Read up on ants and termites as well, you will be surprised how, often, the ants help the tree.


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## pdqdl (Apr 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> The carpenter ants only go after moist wood, so they're not the cause, they just show up to eat the wood ...



Termites eat wood.
Ants don't.

They are CARPENTER ants, so they make their houses out of wood. Usually dry, well seasoned wood, like any good carpenter would.


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 27, 2012)

Watch the kids movie "Ants" actually has a pretty good visual on ants and termites at war over a tree


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## VA-Sawyer (Apr 27, 2012)

I see that CC is up to his normal....spreading bad info! How can anybody be so wrong about so many things ? 
Rick


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## Carburetorless (Apr 27, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Termites eat wood.
> Ants don't.
> 
> They are CARPENTER ants, so they make their houses out of wood. Usually dry, well seasoned wood, like any good carpenter would.



The pest control companies all say carpenter ants eat the moist wood; Are you trying to tell me you're a pest control expert?

Maybe the ants in your area are higher classed ants that prefer to build wooden houses of their own to live in instead of invading the houses of people who don't fix their leaks.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 27, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> I see that CC is up to his normal....spreading bad info! How can anybody be so wrong about so many things ?
> Rick



Here you are trolling arborsite again Rick; Did you have a bad day again?


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## pdqdl (Apr 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> The pest control companies all say carpenter ants eat the moist wood; Are you trying to tell me you're a pest control expert?
> 
> Maybe the ants in your area are higher classed ants that prefer to build wooden houses of their own to live in instead of invading the houses of people who don't fix their leaks.



You need to listen closer. The pest control experts probably told you that carpenter ants need a source of water, that they will work overtime to find one.

Moist wood decays, then the carpenter ants will move in to the decayed wood. They like decaying wood, they can tunnel quite well through dry structural wood, and they don't invade the living wood in a tree.

*********************************************************
No I am not certified for structural pest control. I sure could be, if I wanted to take the test. I wear too many hats already; I don't need to be "the bug guy" too.

I am an expert at learning things on my own, however. You would do well to check your facts before you spread misinformation to others. Use the internet to fill your head with good information, _then_ bring it back to this forum.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 27, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> You need to listen closer. The pest control experts probably told you that carpenter ants need a source of water, that they will work overtime to find one.
> 
> Moist wood decays, then the carpenter ants will move in to the decayed wood. They like decaying wood, they can tunnel quite well through dry structural wood, and they don't invade the living wood in a tree.
> 
> ...



I tell ya what, I'll give you the guys number, that way you can call him up and have your little pissing match with him; O.K.?


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## pdqdl (Apr 27, 2012)

Sure. Send it along to me.

I'll ring his bell and find out what he has to say about carpenter ants. I'll be sure to send you a thorough report too, just in case you might have misunderstood.


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 28, 2012)

Carb, u would earn big time cool points by reading some stuff, may even enlighten you. It did me. When I cam here in the begging, I thought I knew, I was wrong, I didn't know jack. Guys on here set me straight real hard and real quick. JPS would correct just about everything I would say, didn't get mad, realized that I looked like a tool (still do to some!) and needed to learn...........alot. I am happy that I can call him when I get stumped, and I still do.
There are many guys out there, who honestly think they know the stuff, but they have been giving bad info, the same info handed down from gen to gen. Its those guys who venture off and read from those who study trees in depth, that end up becoming great Arborist. 
When someone corrects u, don't take it bad, learn it, look it up............ Google it. Everything that is said on here can be vetted really easy.
I think u have good intent and u have doing better on here,still, just a bit defensive. Dont be, when corrected, ask more q's. Dont believe them, look it up before u blast them. You may humble yourself when u realize that they where only trying to give you the right info, which will make u better.

Books are easy to get. I just bought a copy of Arboriculture by Harris for 20 bucks off Amazon, will do u wonders.


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## VA-Sawyer (Apr 28, 2012)

The problem is that Clueless never understands that he was wrong! Even when everybody here tells him the same thing, he still thinks he is right. He has a talent for "mis-reading" and "mis-hearing", so it won't do him any good to do the research on his own. 
Until he learns enough to understand just how little he really knows, the name CC wil fit him like a glove.

I knew a couple of pilots like him back in the early 80's, both died in plane wrecks. Darwinism is real!

Rick


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## pdqdl (Apr 28, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Carb, u would earn big time cool points by reading some stuff, may even enlighten you. It did me. When I cam here in the begging, I thought I knew, I was wrong, I didn't know jack. Guys on here set me straight real hard and real quick. JPS would correct just about everything I would say, didn't get mad, realized that I looked like a tool (still do to some!) and needed to learn...........alot. I am happy that I can call him when I get stumped, and I still do.
> There are many guys out there, who honestly think they know the stuff, but they have been giving bad info, the same info handed down from gen to gen. Its those guys who venture off and read from those who study trees in depth, that end up becoming great Arborist.
> When someone corrects u, don't take it bad, learn it, look it up............ Google it. Everything that is said on here can be vetted really easy.
> I think u have good intent and u have doing better on here,still, just a bit defensive. Dont be, when corrected, ask more q's. *Dont believe them, look it up before u blast them*. You may humble yourself when u realize that they where only trying to give you the right info, which will make u better.
> ...




That is all pretty good advice. I too followed a similar curve, although I have always been the sort to research things before I spouted off. It is certainly true that in my efforts to not be wrong, I learn a great deal. I have certainly improved my understanding of arboriculture immensely since joining this website. 


Example: while researching this thread, I found conflicting reports on the carpenter ants. It seems that the primary nesting sites do seem to prefer a 15% moisture content, but that brood chambers and some other areas are often selected for their dryer features. So...my initial comments are still correct, but C-less's perceptions of carpenter ants only nesting in damp locations has some substance to it. It is certainly a common thought, although the truth is that they need a moisture source, and they prefer decayed wood. I am pretty sure that preference is because decayed wood is easier to build in. 

He is still dead wrong about "eating" wood, but that might just be a euphemism for chewing holes and tunneling.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 29, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> That is all pretty good advice. I too followed a similar curve, although I have always been the sort to research things before I spouted off. It is certainly true that in my efforts to not be wrong, I learn a great deal. I have certainly improved my understanding of arboriculture immensely since joining this website.
> 
> 
> Example: while researching this thread, I found conflicting reports on the carpenter ants. It seems that the primary nesting sites do seem to prefer a 15% moisture content, but that brood chambers and some other areas are often selected for their dryer features. So...my initial comments are still correct, but C-less's perceptions of carpenter ants only nesting in damp locations has some substance to it. It is certainly a common thought, although the truth is that they need a moisture source, and they prefer decayed wood. I am pretty sure that preference is because decayed wood is easier to build in.
> ...



I've seen carpenter ants in wood for as long as I can remember, and I never really gave a lot of thought as why they were there.

Then, a few years ago, while replacing some rotten window sills for a customer, we ran into carpenter ants. We called a local guy that's been around for more than 20 years, he's the Go To guy around here when it comes to household pests. I took around and showed him all the areas that were infested with the ants, and at some point I asked him what attracts the ants to the wood in the house, and he said they like the rotten wood, and that they wouldn't invade a house unless there was moist wood for them to eat.

Then I asked him point blank "So the moist wood is their food source"? To which he replied yes, that's what they live on.

Made sense to me; I mean what else would they be eating? There's not much else in rotten window sills for them to eat, unless they like peeling paint, rusty nails, or maybe a little caulk and some wood filler.

The lack of damage to anything else leads me to believe that the rotten wood with holes tunneled through it is what they're feeding on. 

Yeah, you gotta be green to grow, but you have to pack some heartwood at some point too.


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## pdqdl (Apr 29, 2012)

That is just about the best reason you could come up with for doing your own research.

Quit believing everything people tell you.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 29, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> That is just about the best reason you could come up with for doing your own research.
> 
> Quit believing everything people tell you.



I actually did do a few web searches on the subject, and they confirmed what the exterminator said. 

I'm curious though; How do you know your source is more accurate than mine? Or are you just believing whatever people tell You, and disagreeing with whatever I say?

Anyway, the exterminator sprayed the infested areas to kill the ants and their larvae.

We vacuumed up all the ants, and replaced all the rotted wood, primed, painted, and caulked to prevent future water damage.

That was a house. Trees have the ability to seal themselves to a certain point. Which brings us back to the original question about hollow cherry tree trunks...

"What causes this and how can it be detected or avoided early on"? 

There are any number of causes, but generally the tree becomes hollow due to some sort of damage that exposes the inner compartments of the tree to the elements. If the damage is to the outer layer/s of the tree there is a good chance that the tree can recover with no decay, if the damage exposes the inner compartments there is less chance the tree can ward off decay, because the inner compartments have less resistance to decay.


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## newsawtooth (Apr 29, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Then I asked him point blank "So the moist wood is their food source"? To which he replied yes, that's what they live on.
> 
> The lack of damage to anything else leads me to believe that the rotten wood with holes tunneled through it is what they're feeding on.



Carpenter ants do not eat wood, they make tunnels and galleries in wood. Sawdust from their tunneling is deposited outside their nests. They eat insects, meats and sweets. The ants are symptomatic as are most pests in trees. The trees ability to resist and compartmentalize decay has been compromised by drought, rot, fungus or mechanical damage. Last week I was deadwooding a Honeylocust and ran into carpenter ants that had nested in an old snow load broken branch at 65'. They were only in one 10" limb and their tunneling stopped at the next trunk side branch union where the tree was more vigorous and resistant to decay. Have to admire their tenacity.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 30, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> Carpenter ants do not eat wood, they make tunnels and galleries in wood. Sawdust from their tunneling is deposited outside their nests. They eat insects, meats and sweets. The ants are symptomatic as are most pests in trees. The trees ability to resist and compartmentalize decay has been compromised by drought, rot, fungus or mechanical damage. Last week I was deadwooding a Honeylocust and ran into carpenter ants that had nested in an old snow load broken branch at 65'. They were only in one 10" limb and their tunneling stopped at the next trunk side branch union where the tree was more vigorous and resistant to decay. Have to admire their tenacity.



What was the diameter at the next branch union?


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## pdqdl (Apr 30, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> ...
> 
> I'm curious though; How do you know your source is more accurate than mine? Or are you just believing whatever people tell You, and disagreeing with whatever I say?
> ....



In general, I question everything I see, hear, and read. Contrary to what you might think, I don't really go out of my way to disagree with you. Most of the time, I just slip past your posts without commenting on them, no matter what the content. AS is too full of hyperbole, errors, and inflamed egos for me to pick on everything I might disagree with.

***********************************************************************************

The best way to resolve differences in source material facts is to cite references, compare the reputation of the sources, and to use a little bit of reason. Sometimes, no one knows the answer, and it all boils down to opinion.

That is not the case regarding ants and eating wood: Carpenter Ants Management Guidelines--UC IPM
"Carpenter ants don’t consume wood like termites but excavate it to make their nests"

_I showed you mine, now you show me yours._


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## Carburetorless (Apr 30, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> In general, I question everything I see, hear, and read. Contrary to what you might think, I don't really go out of my way to disagree with you. Most of the time, I just slip past your posts without commenting on them, no matter what the content. AS is too full of hyperbole, errors, and inflamed egos for me to pick on everything I might disagree with.
> 
> ***********************************************************************************
> 
> ...



The info on that page is inline with what I've seen in the field. 

O.K. carpenter ants don't eat wood.

Do I get my Ant Expert Certification now?


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## pdqdl (Apr 30, 2012)

Yep.


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