# &^%$#@! Employees



## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

Ekka's comment about employees foibles being a global phenom caused me to create this thread.

My two cents....

1. You have to motivate employees, particularly younger ones-yelling and screaming on a daily basis is not going to solve a thing. In fact they will walk. There is a time and place for raising ones voice or temper on occcasion, usually when someone is about to get hurt. OK fine if your style is to yell scream and generally berate people, but don't be surprised when people do not want to work with you especially at a lower wage scale. Read an interesting article this morning in the Globe and Mail that said bad bosses were the chief demotivator for most workers, money was a distant second and work hours third. 

2. $$$$$$> Everyone's favorite topic. The reliable $10 per hour employee is a rare, if not almost extinct, bird. And if you do find one, he/she is looking for another job that will pay $13 hour with less physical discomfort the whole time he is working for you. Most people do not want to work for that coin in the dirt, heat dust whatever. $15 might do it, but a lot of people do not or can not afford that level of pay, so they get stuck with the chaff of society, the jailbirds, drunks, and druggies who will take $10 to get some cash, and do not give a sh*t what they have to do to get it. And in the process, don't give a sh*t about you, your company, your customers, your equipment etc etc. 

3. If the boss is unreliable (ie never ready for work on time, does not pay on time, does not maintain equipment, uses unsafe procedures or equipment(or insists employees use same)) the whole attitude rubs off on the employees. On the other hand if you appear to give a sh*t about your company, show pride in your work, this too rubs off on the employees. I worked for a hack once that like McPeak, spiked everything. Think I respected him??? Coupled with anger management problems (see 1 above) he could not hold onto employees, though in his credit, his equipment was number one and he did pay about $2 hr more than most in the area at the time.

IMHO Number 2 is the chief reason the tree service industry gets stuck with the employees they do. There are far easier ways to earn $10 hr, and jobs paying more are widely available, if not locally, in other parts of the country.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 22, 2006)

4. Hiring someone between the age of 20 and 29 will have different results. 20 somethings are statistically lazy due to their over-exposure to video games throughout their youth. They also tend to have an inflated sense of self worth do to the dot.com era where easy money was made just for knowing how to create websites. don't even get me started about their spoiledness and coddling by their rich baby boomer parents. if you want an employee who will work hard for a fair price, hire teenagers or post-30 yr olds.

5. good $10 employees are available. Trick is you have to find them before they ever make that amount. for example; grocery store stockboys are a great source. they are used to heavily lifting all day long for $7/hr. offer them $10/hr and they'll think they hit the lottery and work 12 hour days and love it.


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## buff (Aug 22, 2006)

Do not forget, they want you to buy them shoes and clothes too.


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## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> o will work hard for a fair price, hire teenagers or post-30 yr olds.
> 
> 5. good $10 employees are available.




They are, problem is a $10 an hour employee that remains there is either mentally/phsically/emotionally challanged and working at the peak of his capabilities (this includes the druggies and drunks) or not in the least bit ambitious, which is hardly the kind of employee most companies want. You are not going to hold onto anyone with drive unless you pay them more.


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## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> 4. Hiring someone between the age of 20 and 29 will have different results. 20 somethings are statistically lazy due to their over-exposure to video games throughout their youth. They also tend to have an inflated sense of self worth do to the dot.com era where easy money was made just for knowing how to create websites. don't even get me started about their spoiledness and coddling by their rich baby boomer parents. if you want an employee who will work hard for a fair price, hire teenagers or post-30 yr olds.



Tend to agree somewhat here.......I had a phone interview with a lady from West Virginia yesterday, and she mentioned in passing that someone else being considered for the job really wanted to know if it was necessary to get outside and dirty ????? I replied I was unlikely to melt and I have experienced dirty places to work in my life. This comment was really puzzling because while the yard where much of the stock is kept (railroad bed maintenance like items for CN exclusively), it really was not that bad. I supposed the person wanted a nice clean office job, where one did not get wet, dirty, cold or hot on occasion.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 22, 2006)

Jumper said:


> They are, problem is a $10 an hour employee that remains there is either mentally/phsically/emotionally challanged and working at the peak of his capabilities (this includes the druggies and drunks) or not in the least bit ambitious, which is hardly the kind of employee most companies want. You are not going to hold onto anyone with drive unless you pay them more.



anyone with ambition and common sense will start their own tree service the first chance they get. sometimes it's better to have a not so great employee for that reason.


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## Dan R Porter (Aug 22, 2006)

*All wrong*

Sorry to inform all of you. But I started my Job about 2 years ago at $10 an hour and I consider myself the most dedicated employee there. In those two years I have worked my hardest and learned as much as I could, I even got ISA certified last year. If you want good help you have to offer EDUCATION. Thats the only benefit I ask about when interviewing, If I don't go to seminars or get help with schooling, I don't take the job.

Dan


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## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> anyone with ambition and common sense will start their own tree service the first chance they get. sometimes it's better to have a not so great employee for that reason.



One that destroys your equipment and/or client base???? Or who is not smart enough to operate in a safe manner? Or looks like he was just released from the local slammer or worse?


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## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

Dan R Porter said:


> Sorry to inform all of you. But I started my Job about 2 years ago at $10 an hour and I consider myself the most dedicated employee there. In those two years I have worked my hardest and learned as much as I could, I even got ISA certified last year. If you want good help you have to offer EDUCATION. Thats the only benefit I ask about when interviewing, If I don't go to seminars or get help with schooling, I don't take the job.
> 
> Dan



I bet you are not earning $10 an hour now. I did not say all $10 hr employees were like that, and you are one of the "rare birds" with ambition. It is all about upward mobility.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 22, 2006)

Dan R Porter said:


> Sorry to inform all of you. But I started my Job about 2 years ago at $10 an hour and I consider myself the most dedicated employee there. In those two years I have worked my hardest and learned as much as I could, I even got ISA certified last year. If you want good help you have to offer EDUCATION. Thats the only benefit I ask about when interviewing, If I don't go to seminars or get help with schooling, I don't take the job.
> 
> Dan





One or two, or even three or four, exceptions, do not prove _anybody _wrong. The discussion is about general trends. I suspect everybody who posted above is well aware that there are exceptions.


If you want to be upwardly mobile, learn to think more carefully.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 22, 2006)

Jumper said:


> There are far easier ways to earn $10 hr, and jobs paying more are widely available, if not locally, in other parts of the country.




My company pays that for DRIVERS. (No CDL.) All they have to do is show up, and follow a map, with an engineer there to straigten them out when they go wrong.

And for that money, we get the dregs. Yes, there is an occasional college student or whatever who is way over qualified, and is there because the job happens to suit them temporarily, but they are the EXCEPTION.


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 22, 2006)

*gen X, not what you think*



Treeinnovator said:


> 4. Hiring someone between the age of 20 and 29 will have different results. 20 somethings are statistically lazy due to their over-exposure to video games throughout their youth. They also tend to have an inflated sense of self worth do to the dot.com era where easy money was made just for knowing how to create websites. don't even get me started about their spoiledness and coddling by their rich baby boomer parents. if you want an employee who will work hard for a fair price, hire teenagers or post-30 yr olds.
> 
> 5. good $10 employees are available. Trick is you have to find them before they ever make that amount. for example; grocery store stockboys are a great source. they are used to heavily lifting all day long for $7/hr. offer them $10/hr and they'll think they hit the lottery and work 12 hour days and love it.


I'm calling [email protected]*t on this one. I've heard all this crap about "gen X" my whole working life. I am proud to be a member of this "lost" generation, but we are completely misundertstood. Our teen years were spent while this country was in an economic recession, most of us had both parents working (if our parents were even together) I had my first job at 14 and a paper route, and went to school, and played sports.
The problem is that no one with a head on their shoulders will work for 10$ an hr., especially if they see the biz owner making ten times that. You're damn right if they have any ambition they will try to go out on their own, I did. Didn't you??
I agree that the education thing is a huge factor. I worked for a company that would send us to seminars and the trade shows and all that fun stuff, when I was hired I was promised schooling for college credit, the carrot kept getting bigger and the stick longer untill I had enough and quit to do my own thing and go back to school. 
The thing about gen X is that we can smell hypocracy a mile a way...............pay attention, we've grown up watching you


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## l2edneck (Aug 22, 2006)

*Couldnt Have Said It Better Myself!!!*



> I'm calling [email protected]*t on this one. I've heard all this crap about "gen X" my whole working life. I am proud to be a member of this "lost" generation, but we are completely misundertstood. Our teen years were spent while this country was in an economic recession, most of us had both parents working (if our parents were even together) I had my first job at 14 and a paper route, and went to school, and played sports.
> The problem is that no one with a head on their shoulders will work for 10$ an hr., especially if they see the biz owner making ten times that. You're damn right if they have any ambition they will try to go out on their own, I did. Didn't you??



And i'll second that


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 22, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> I'm calling [email protected]*t on this one. I've heard all this crap about "gen X" my whole working life. I am proud to be a member of this "lost" generation, but we are completely misundertstood. Our teen years were spent while this country was in an economic recession, most of us had both parents working (if our parents were even together) I had my first job at 14 and a paper route, and went to school, and played sports.
> The problem is that no one with a head on their shoulders will work for 10$ an hr., especially if they see the biz owner making ten times that. You're damn right if they have any ambition they will try to go out on their own, I did. Didn't you??
> I agree that the education thing is a huge factor. I worked for a company that would send us to seminars and the trade shows and all that fun stuff, when I was hired I was promised schooling for college credit, the carrot kept getting bigger and the stick longer untill I had enough and quit to do my own thing and go back to school.
> The thing about gen X is that we can smell hypocracy a mile a way...............pay attention, we've grown up watching you



the only thing Gen Xer's smell is the interior of the brand new Lexus mommy and daddy bought for them when they got a "c" average on their report card. every punk kid i dealt with from age 20 to 29 seriously believed that if they went to college, partied and took a few tests... they came out expecting...i mean OWED an $80,000 job from the 1st day. time to wake up. how's that house hunting going? i love hearing the stories about the gen Xer's not being able to afford a high priced house that all us REAL MEN had to earn.


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## John464 (Aug 22, 2006)

you are right when speaking about American youth. American's dont get that work ethic until they have i.e wife, kids, mortgage, which usually happens mid twenties and on. Those are the Americans you want to hire, not the americans that only are working for extra spending cash. 

Latino raised youth have a different work ethic than you described. They will give a damn about your equipment, will show up on time, and will take pride in their work. I currently have quite a few Latino employees ranging from $10 an hour to $16 an hour and they work extremely hard for me. They have all started at $9 for the first two weeks of training, then $10 for remaining first year and they know if they respect me and work hard they will be provided a good life. EMPLOYEES TALK TO ONE ANOTHER. I take them out to eat atleast once a week. I pay for their gas in their trucks/cars to get to work. The problem is with American youth is even if you treat them right they dont appreciate it, it is different when you do the same for other cultures. 

NOTE: when speaking $$ it is only relative to your area and direct competition that surrounds your area. Do everything a few notvhes above your competition and you will allow for the better employees in your area.


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## Dan R Porter (Aug 22, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> One or two, or even three or four, exceptions, do not prove _anybody _wrong. The discussion is about general trends. I suspect everybody who posted above is well aware that there are exceptions.
> 
> 
> If you want to be upwardly mobile, learn to think more carefully.




Well i stand corrected. Everyone else who works with me is around my age, 23-29 (I am 25) and I am at 12.20 right now. And maybe 1 out of those 5 are worth a cent. They are lazy, and just do not take any pride. To them it is just a job. And they call me the idot for being so serious about my work.... Maybe they are all right and we are the dumb ones...heh just a twist.


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## Thillmaine (Aug 22, 2006)

*GEn X*

I am currently 21 years old and do agree with most of the abov posts. Many of my friends, even ones who work with our tree company can not think for themselves and dont even put their mind to use, you know its the little things that count, rather then being told to coil rope, they just do it, rather then telling them to fuelt he saws int he mornignt hey just do it. using their own brainpower to benefit everyone. Myself I do not consider one of these "robots." I started at 10 an hour 2 years ago, learned how to climb last summer and became certified Maine landscape and utility arborist after only 8 months on the job. My boss wouldnt train me to climb for quite some time so I bought my own gear and he got the hint. Know I have my own business on the side, doing landscaping and treework, and work at least 80 hours a week. So a lot can be said for many of the Gen X'ers but I think their are a few amongst us that certainally defraud this label. 
When it come to motivation I do agree witht he first post. I have worked for many companies throughout the green industry, and by far the biggest issue is the boss. My current boss is always ready to go, loves to get us fired up, is upbeat and excited to got to work in the AM. Another boss of mine is the same way in the area I go to school. Always fired up ready to go, fiesty and motivating. A boss I had previously at a nursery was possibly the singlemost nastiest person I have ever met. Her employees reflect this. They are alwatys hiding out trying no tot do a damn thing and nothing at the place sells. Personally I think the "boss" has alot to dow ith employees, he can be the straw the broke the camels back or the one who keeps the employees excited about working their.
On another ADD note, education benefits are tremendously important in this industry. An employee who is intrested in education benfifts can only benfit the company in the long run. Many people could care less about furthering themselves, they knwo what they know and thats it and the are content with that. That is fine for most people but in an expanding and innovative companie s a lot can be said about an employee who wants to keep up to date with all their certifications and the newest technologies.


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## Dan R Porter (Aug 22, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> My company pays that for DRIVERS. (No CDL.) All they have to do is show up, and follow a map, with an engineer there to straigten them out when they go wrong.
> 
> And for that money, we get the dregs. Yes, there is an occasional college student or whatever who is way over qualified, and is there because the job happens to suit them temporarily, but they are the EXCEPTION.



Are you hiring? heh...I am willing to relocate to Virginia.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 22, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> anyone with ambition and common sense will start their own tree service the first chance they get. sometimes it's better to have a not so great employee for that reason.


I don't agree with you treeinnovator. Granted, I would probably start my own company if I had a jerk of a boss, but I love not having any headaches. I don't have to worry about insurance, employees, finding jobs, paying employees, buying equipment, finding employees, etc. I am just sent out to do the job and I can concentrate on what I love to do-climbing. And at the end of the day, I can just go home and not have to worry about the company. Sure, I may not make millions of dollars a year, but I live comfortably. I guess I'm just lazy and a dumbass.


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## Climb020 (Aug 22, 2006)

I have to say I am sick and tired of people trash talking the young guys. Though I will agree that many do deserve an @ss whipping but give credit to those that work their ass off.
I was just a regular kid that lived on the wrong side of the tracks and went to private school to keep me alive. Every summer I hauled firewood and split it by hand while most kids at 10 where out riding there bike. I was poor and had no parents cause 1 died (heart attack from logging) the other ran away so I couldn't go to college.
But after 2 and a 1/2 years of bust my hump and learning everything that I could I just got another job offering over $20 as well I finished 7th in NJ this year. 

Lazy ?????*s come from every age group. And you pay for what you get. You want to be cheap and pay $10/hour then you deserve a worker that will give you your moneys worth and not a penny more. 
My first tree boss was kinda the same way. My first day he said it was gonna be hard work and I told him no problem cause a little hard work never killed noone. He didn't believe me but he does know and that is why I still help him out on the weekends.

I would love to work with some of you guys some times. I would run circles around you and tell you to go f.. off at the end of the day for being sterotypical.


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## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> Lazy ?????*s come from every age group. And you pay for what you get. You want to be cheap and pay $10/hour then you deserve a worker that will give you your moneys worth and not a penny more.
> 
> .



Well put, I think that was my point in the first place.


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## l2edneck (Aug 22, 2006)

> the only thing Gen Xer's smell is the interior of the brand new Lexus mommy and daddy bought for them when they got a "c" average on their report card. every punk kid i dealt with from age 20 to 29 seriously believed that if they went to college, partied and took a few tests... they came out expecting...i mean OWED an $80,000 job from the 1st day. time to wake up. how's that house hunting going? i love hearing the stories about the gen Xer's not being able to afford a high priced house that all us REAL MEN had to earn.



Sounds like you've lived a sheltered life.Mommy and Daddy dint buy me crap.I been bustin my a$$ since i was 13. As fer college? That dream went by by when my mom and dad both got laid off from the county.Yea i partied,from 16 to 23 then was go time.To bad i got a late start er else id be buyin my kids a lexus when they turned 16 because they earned it.I will speak for some of us gen Xrs.Most of us didnt go to college(or finish school for that matter)thats why we risk our lives and bodies swingin chainsaws to make a livin so i dont know who you think yer bullhocking bud.:hmm3grin2orange:

Sorry yall,that struck a cord but im lmfao now:yoyo:


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## buff (Aug 22, 2006)

OTG BOSTON......you hit the bull's eye. The complaint seems to be that the bull's eye is on the forehead of too many GEN X'ers. They are hippies kids raised in a marijuana haze. Eighty percent of them never took the time to learn how to read and write. A full third of them graduated Special Ed from every school in this nation. Work ethic? That generation and what follows is the reason why eleven million illegals who are here to do the work GEN X'ers refuse. Mortgage? Do they really have credit? Children? Yeah, they have them scattered out all over your community with their unwed mothers. Thirty five percent of the general population is born to unwed mothers. It is more among minority groups. Put that together with men who have abandoned their children and the number is too high to calculate. College? I am always amused at the reasons grown men come up with for not having any education. They do and buy everything else they want. Why can't they find the front door of a university? Oh yeah, eighty percent of them do not read and write without help with the big words.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 22, 2006)

buff said:


> OTG BOSTON......you hit the bull's eye. The complaint seems to be that the bull's eye is on the forehead of too many GEN X'ers. They are hippies kids raised in a marijuana haze. Eighty percent of them never took the time to learn how to read and write. A full third of them graduated Special Ed from every school in this nation. Work ethic? That generation and what follows is the reason why eleven million illegals who are here to do the work GEN X'ers refuse. Mortgage? Do they really have credit? Children? Yeah, they have them scattered out all over your community with their unwed mothers. Thirty five percent of the general population is born to unwed mothers. It is more among minority groups. Put that together with men who have abandoned their children and the number is too high to calculate. College? I am always amused at the reasons grown men come up with for not having any education. They do and buy everything else they want. Why can't they find the front door of a university? Oh yeah, eighty percent of them do not read and write without help with the big words.


OK Buffff, i din''t agrea butt i ony 28. I go get welfair chek than com bak/ smoak weed and plaey vido game. Than latr get girll knoked up. I go collage every dey to find momis fr my kidz. {how spell collage---too big a word}?/:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 22, 2006)

buff said:


> OTG BOSTON......you hit the bull's eye. The complaint seems to be that the bull's eye is on the forehead of too many GEN X'ers. They are hippies kids raised in a marijuana haze. Eighty percent of them never took the time to learn how to read and write. A full third of them graduated Special Ed from every school in this nation. Work ethic? That generation and what follows is the reason why eleven million illegals who are here to do the work GEN X'ers refuse. Mortgage? Do they really have credit? Children? Yeah, they have them scattered out all over your community with their unwed mothers. Thirty five percent of the general population is born to unwed mothers. It is more among minority groups. Put that together with men who have abandoned their children and the number is too high to calculate. College? I am always amused at the reasons grown men come up with for not having any education. They do and buy everything else they want. Why can't they find the front door of a university? Oh yeah, eighty percent of them do not read and write without help with the big words.



Jesus, Buff... you hit the nail on the head with that one. 
it's absolutely true that the reason all the jobs are done by immigrants these days is because the gen X'ers are not willing to do it themselves. they feel the hard work is "beneath" them. their ancestors who immigrated to America in the 1900's would kick their a$$ if they saw what was going on. those guys worked 18 hour days in the cole mines and steel mills for poverty wages. 

and GenXer's that do think they are working hard are simply hardworking in their own minds. they keep fooling themselves into beleiving it. it's no different than when a guy thinks his girlfriend is the best looking when really she's not. i have yet to meet ANYONE in the 20's who can work as hard as we did when we were 20. bunch of punks who think a hard day is scoring 10,000 points on the newest ******** game. they think talent is talking on a cellphone while driving stickshift. give me a break. one day on my jobsite is about all they last. i'm telling you guys...i've hired plenty and they can't keep up.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 22, 2006)

Dan R Porter said:


> Are you hiring? heh...I am willing to relocate to Virginia.




It's temp work. All across the nation, when and where we have a contract, and it's a few weeks, MAYBE a few months at a time, at most. That's the ONLY reason drivers get paid so much. Most places that's a $7 or $8 per hour job.


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## GASoline71 (Aug 22, 2006)

Not to be nit-picky here but I think you guys are reffering to Generation Y and not Generation X.

Gen Xers were born between 1961-1981. I'm 38 and that put me in that group.

Gen Y's were born between 1977-2003. These are the 20 something's and late teens you all are reffering to.

I found these years on Wikipedia.opcorn: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X

Gary


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## SmokinDodge (Aug 22, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> Jesus, Buff...
> i have yet to meet ANYONE in the 20's who can work as hard as we did when we were 20. bunch of punks who think a hard day is scoring 10,000 points on the newest ******** game. they think talent is talking on a cellphone while driving stickshift. give me a break. one day on my jobsite is about all they last. i'm telling you guys...i've hired plenty and they can't keep up.



And I'm sure an ol' timer said a very similar thing about you when you where in your 20's.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 22, 2006)

Smokindodgew101 said:


> And I'm sure an ol' timer said a very similar thing about you when you where in your 20's.



not a chance.
i'm 34 and back then things were alot different. we were brought up under harder conditions.


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## buff (Aug 22, 2006)

Generation X or generation Y.......Put them in a sack and shake them up. Who can tell the difference? It is basically anybody born after the early 
1950's. Not just those now in their 20's. They do not get any better as they age out. Too many of them just want to work long enough to find a place to fall down or qualify for a crazy check. Everytime you want some real work done you have to look up some illegals.


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## Jumper (Aug 22, 2006)

I think officially "Baby Boomers" are 1946-1964, so lumping us with all those Xs and Ys is a travesty! And I am sure there was more than a fair share of boomers who were dope smoking granola munching long haired hippies in their day.


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## buff (Aug 23, 2006)

On the local college campus the hippie age was well under way by 1970. That would be someone born in the early 1950's. Society changed in the late sixties for the worst and never recovered. That is when the divorce rate spiked, drugs became so common place and people began to stop getting married. What we see today is just more of the same and worse. Because of crack babies, alcohol fetal syndrome and just plain neglect, a full half of all school age children today are permanently, mentally disabled to greater and lesser degrees...but still disabled. I do not know how many more are on medication to manage their behavior but it must be a shocking rate. Just ask the diagnostician at any high school in the US. Only twenty percent of the school population understands what they are there for. The remainder are asleep at their desk, on medication, drugs and in Special Ed. For all of those who complain that they did not attend college because their parents would not pay for it...I assume that you took all of the advanced college prep courses and scored high on your entrance exams. And I assume that all of the loans, grants and paying jobs must have been passed out to someone else...even to this day.


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## rebelman (Aug 23, 2006)

Gen Xer's are like Van Halen sucked and I'm like get off the **** and go to an effin party.


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## clearance (Aug 23, 2006)

GASoline71 said:


> Not to be nit-picky here but I think you guys are reffering to Generation Y and not Generation X.
> 
> Gen Xers were born between 1961-1981. I'm 38 and that put me in that group.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gary, I was born in '68, making me 38 as well. Funny the tards whining about Gen X ers couldn't even get it right. Just retarded to generalize like that.


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## arboralliance (Aug 23, 2006)

*Amen!*



OTG BOSTON said:


> I'm calling [email protected]*t on this one. I've heard all this crap about "gen X" my whole working life. I am proud to be a member of this "lost" generation, but we are completely misundertstood. Our teen years were spent while this country was in an economic recession, most of us had both parents working (if our parents were even together) I had my first job at 14 and a paper route, and went to school, and played sports.
> The problem is that no one with a head on their shoulders will work for 10$ an hr., especially if they see the biz owner making ten times that. You're damn right if they have any ambition they will try to go out on their own, I did. Didn't you??
> I agree that the education thing is a huge factor. I worked for a company that would send us to seminars and the trade shows and all that fun stuff, when I was hired I was promised schooling for college credit, the carrot kept getting bigger and the stick longer untill I had enough and quit to do my own thing and go back to school.
> The thing about gen X is that we can smell hypocracy a mile a way...............pay attention, we've grown up watching you




Well said OTG BOSTON, well said...

There's a story of an old man at a bus stop waiting patiently when a young man walks down the road heading for the next town, the old man asks him what he thought of the town he'd just come from, the young man replies that it was crap and full of idiots the old guy nods his head and responds saying the next town is just the same...

An hour or so later another young man comes from the other direction heading for the next town, the old man asks him the same question to which the young man responds that the town was great and he had a great time, the old man nods and says the next town is the same...

Our employees and the people around us will be exactly what we make them (and of them)...

Transperancy, understanding and empathy through careful listening backed by education (not innundation) and communication is the answer as stated by many previously...


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## Ekka (Aug 23, 2006)

Well whacko, got a few fired up hey.

At the end of the day what you need to find is workers who are interested in trees .... then they'll take an interest in

Wanting to improve

Listening to advice

Offering to help maintain gear

Asking for off the job tuition

Wanting to know knots

Reading books and telling you a few things

Shaving and showering before work

Bringing their lunch and drink

Wearing their PPE without you telling them

Not butting out their cigs on the customers driveway

Not giving the bird to another driver in your truck.

Turning up on time if not early

Not spitting or slagging everywhere

Not throwing up behind bushes from the night before

Not abandoning their post on the lowering rope

Moving pots and obsticals you may have missed

Not leaving rubber on customers driveways

Paying their own traffic offences

Not turning the floor into a tip full of rubbish

When fueling and oiling the saw checking chain sharpness and tension

Untangling your ropes when neccessary rather than SMS'ing mates

Oh, and the BIG ONE, accepting responsibility for their own actions not blaming the boss for it.

I'm sure there's many others but a lot of the above I think are "normal" expectations. How come you get guys in this job 8 years and still cant tie a knot? Lived in the city longer than I but have no idea where they're driving.

Because, it has nothing to do with money or the boss and has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THEM AND ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

I have taken on jobs in the past way out of my area of expertise, I got the job due to other atributes, I made it my business to know those industries and jobs, read about them, borrowed books etc. But in this industry the meat heads want it all brought to them ... it's always the bosses responsibility. I even gave them a piece of rope on Friday along with a book and said on Monday morning I want you to show me how to tie a bowline. Monday comes along and the answer .. "Oh man, had a blinder of a weekend, just didn't have time mate". Yeah, well I aint got time for you ... piss off.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## SmokinDodge (Aug 23, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> not a chance.
> i'm 34 and back then things were alot different. we were brought up under harder conditions.




Yep, and they said that too. 

It doesn't matter what time frame you pick the older generation always had it rougher/tougher/longer/harder. Just ask them.

So, the six years difference between your age and the group you are always piss and moaning about really amounts to what really?

Was there a world war?

Was there a holocaust?

A plague?

No? What occured to make things "alot different"


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## Ekka (Aug 23, 2006)

It's not about age or era's it's about people.

You walk into a job not knowing chit you start at the bottom and work your way up.

What I see at lot of is people not knowing chit and wanting good money. How many calls I get, 

_"yeah mate, saw the job, whadya paying?" _

*"Well that depends on your experience and skills"*

_"Oh, I done a bit of this n' that and I'll be good mate, the dump I work at now only pays me $18 and hour and ya cant live on that ???? money, so whadya paying?"_

*"So, tell me, have you worked in any other professional tree crews before?"*

_"Nah mate, but I'm tellin ya, I'll be F'N good!"_

*"OK, so we'll start you on $18 and hour and take it from there"*

_"Oh, that's not much, do ya get holidays and what happens if it rains?"_

*"Oh yes, when it rains you have an unpaid holiday ... just like me"*

.... now come on guys, I'm not exagerating, this is what you get.

The last two Sunday nights in a row I had a mysterious call at about 8.30pm ... it went like this.

_"yeah mate, are ya looking for a climber"_ ... Now that was exactly what I heard when I answered, no intro, didn't know who the guy was, what experience he had, and obviously I figured a desperado with nowhere to go on Monday.

Well bugger me, last Sunday again, the same guy. Like would you ring a stranger at 8.30pm on a Sunday and act like that?

I've been around a fair while and in a few different jobs but I have never had experiences like these. Most people wanting a job go about it pleasantly and intelligently, an introduction is normal.


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## SmokinDodge (Aug 23, 2006)

You're exactly right Ekka. It's not about age or era, it's the people. I wish you the best of luck in finding a climber it sounds like you might need it!:bang:


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## Ekka (Aug 23, 2006)

Hahaha, I climb my own stuff. Just as well.

There's a few climbers around that contract who are good, but I haven't had to use any for yonks. 

Good ground guys are hard to find too. You may want some-one to operate a chipper, stump grinder, run ya ropes etc ... a good ground guy *who's onto it *is worth a lot to a business, no doubt about it.

And I suppose for the guys who are at the bottom, lugging and dragging and putting up with crap well hey .... consider it an education, treat it like a professional job and make it your business to grow and learn ... ask for more responsibility but you better honour it.


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 23, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> the only thing Gen Xer's smell is the interior of the brand new Lexus mommy and daddy bought for them when they got a "c" average on their report card. every punk kid i dealt with from age 20 to 29 seriously believed that if they went to college, partied and took a few tests... they came out expecting...i mean OWED an $80,000 job from the 1st day. time to wake up. how's that house hunting going? i love hearing the stories about the gen Xer's not being able to afford a high priced house that all us REAL MEN had to earn.


congradualtions REAL MAN, your misconceptions are your worst enemy. I'm not sure what backwater hovel you own in. What I do know is I bought my first house four years ago (I was 25) for 500k, in Boston. Last year I purchased a vacation home on Cape Cod. I figured out how to make 80k a year without going to college (more actually )
I think you need to take a good look at YOURSELF before you can lead young people at work. Leadership is an art and a skill, and if you can't lead.............
No need to get nasty about it either I'm just defending my generation same as you would.
I would agree that twenty somethings are late genX or early genY, for those "tards" who can't make the distinction


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## diltree (Aug 23, 2006)

*hmmm*

TreeInnovator,

I'm 27 years old and I disagree with all the ignorant generalizations that have been made about my generation. I started working as a groundman for my dads company during my summer vacations at the age of 15, I don't recall a day were we didn't work hard. Many of my friends worked for our company during the summer, and although some couldn't handle the hard work many turned out to be great workers. 
As for all 20 year olds being lazy and lacking ambition: that is ridiculous. At 20 years old I felt highly motivated to achieve, I became college educated, an arborist, a climber, a class 1 hoisting engineer, CDL driver, Certified Line Trimmer, crew foreman, and bought my first home all by the age of 24. Today I manage a successfull company, and work in the field doing tree removals every day. I just purchased my second home this past winter; and spend my free time doing renovations on the new home and studying for the mass arborist exam this fall. I don't believe I lack ambition, achievement or work ethic. 
It is true that many 20 year olds sit around and do very little to contribute to society, but on the other end most of our soldiers and officers fighting and dieing in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan fall in the 20 year old demographic; are they lazy too? I have friends that waist there time playing video games and friends that are Dr.s at age of 26, friends that live in apartments and friends that own homes.... 

All people are different........You just cant make blanket statements about any demographic and expect to sound intelligent.


www.dillontree.com


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## Jim1NZ (Aug 23, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> I have to say I am sick and tired of people trash talking the young guys. Though I will agree that many do deserve an @ss whipping but give credit to those that work their ass off.
> 
> Lazy ?????*s come from every age group. And you pay for what you get. You want to be cheap and pay $10/hour then you deserve a worker that will give you your moneys worth and not a penny more.
> My first tree boss was kinda the same way. My first day he said it was gonna be hard work and I told him no problem cause a little hard work never killed noone. He didn't believe me but he does know and that is why I still help him out on the weekends.
> ...



Well done, you deserve it mate!


Ha, and to all you guys who think ALL younger guys are useless, I'm 21 and i would love to send you my CV.

Good guys are out there, why don't you get the climber to demo themselves before you hire them? If their rubbish don't even bother with them for a day.

If you find a good guy, a guy you are looking for, don't trial them for a year pay them well. PAY THEM WHAT THEIR WORTH!

Look after your guys and they will look after you.


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## Ekka (Aug 23, 2006)

Yeah Jim, I'll have ya anyday, you're a rare one.

Hey, that pub we went to has been rebuilt, I wonder what's on the lunch menu now? Haha


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## Jim1NZ (Aug 23, 2006)

Cheers Ekka, hey i think i fulfill all your employee requirements and there's no need to worry about any cigarette butts!!!

HAHA well lets just say theres no need to fix the entertainment!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## a_lopa (Aug 23, 2006)

Theres no perfect tree worker just like theres no perfect people its just managing the people youve surrounded yourself with,hopefully not some of the lazy/theives/alchos that circulate the tree game.


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## Ekka (Aug 23, 2006)

a_lopa said:


> hopefully not some of the pigs/lazy/theives/alchos that circulate the tree game.



Come on Lopa, tell us a good story, I have let out a few.

You know that Ac/DC song Thunderstruck? Well, we had this guy who threw up a few times so we used to whistle and sing Da Da da dah da CHUNDER, hahaha, and he was nick named Chucky.


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## l2edneck (Aug 23, 2006)

as long as they upchuck in the neighbors bushes (i used to hide like the best back in my day)Boss would be like "where u been" n id be like "I'm here aint I?"
LOL:censored:


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## a_lopa (Aug 23, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Come on Lopa, tell us a good story, I have let out a few.
> 
> You know that Ac/DC song Thunderstruck? Well, we had this guy who threw up a few times so we used to whistle and sing Da Da da dah da CHUNDER, hahaha, and he was nick named Chucky.



To many to mention,one guy that comes to mind had done a basic arb ticket while on the dole biggest thief going,he would cut firewood and do as many cash jobs as he could while on the job, and once walked into a packed shopping mall with his spikes on.They started wondering where all there saws were going but never even looked at this guy!he gets pulled up by the cops driving company truck you guessed it no licence so he finally gets fired the realise he was the saw theif everyone else forgiven.

Comes in to pick up his last paycheck gets in the office steals owners wifes handbag with keys to her BMW takes it out bush and trashes it.same guy would be drinking a jim beam black and a joint for smoko,was fun to wind him up thou i nearly had him try drop an undroppable tree next to a house just to see how hungry for money he was,unfortunantly he was smart enough not to.


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## buff (Aug 23, 2006)

What did you guys major in? Do you really own a business or just some climbing gear and a stack of blank tickets?


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## a_lopa (Aug 23, 2006)

max do you have a brush manager and saw director?


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## Ekka (Aug 24, 2006)

Hey lopa, I think that guy moved out New England way.


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## Bermie (Aug 24, 2006)

Hey, what's wrong with being a College grad and a tree guy?
As long as they can do the work like the rest of us, then by being a grad, they've got an extra layer in their 'bag of tricks'
I went to a highly academic high school, left with 12 GCE 'o' levels, 6 in science alone (the UK mob will understand this) SAT's blah blah, and chose the outdoor career (with Technical College). I was supposed to be a doctor or a lawyer or accountant or something according to the school and got grief for it, reverse snobbery, don't dis the College boys!
At the end of the day, can you do the work???


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## Ekka (Aug 24, 2006)

Bang on Bermie, it's all about individuals choices and yes, college etc tells the employer you have the ability to learn and see things thru.


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## freemanruss (Aug 24, 2006)

*Hey, let's all see what else we can stereotype...*

I tell you, Russell Freeman 30 yrs old, supposed "Gen-xer". I heard somebody try to blame us for the reality shows on tv, for Mtv to stop showing music videos. Probably a damn Gen-xer in the plane that hit the trade center.
This all seems kinda silly to me. I am 30 years old and I have been on my own for 13 years. I did not finish college, but I can read and write fairly well. I know the difference between can't afford to pay and not willing to pay. I work smart, and hard when I have to, or sometimes because it is fun. I think the start of this thread was something about how to hire and retain cheap labor for dangerous work. Or maybe it was what makes employees want to stay at a company for low wages and dangerous work.
Any good tree guy I ever knew did good treework, was a good employee only because he loved to climb, work as a team and had the ability to make a game out of making sh*t disappear, especially rotten elm brush piles. It takes a good, fun,productive team to make people wanna stick around. If the boss is a part of the team, even better. Fact is that less than 2 percent of the population can do what we do; even less do it well. We stay with what is comfortable, if not we move on. 
Undoubtedly there are a certain percentage of people from every generation who aren't willing to go out and drag prickly brush up and down hills, stairs, across yards and feed it into a potentially dangerous machine that is loud and can impair their hearing, or risk major bodily injury every time they pick up a chainsaw. Believe it or not, many people try to avoid worksites where the judgement of others has to be trusted while risking death. Some people don't like to bleed from cuts and scratches they don't remember getting, I however, am not one of those people.
What I suggest is that maybe the is not best forum for a debate on whether or not my generation is lazy, as we are all tree guys here. We work hard because we are passionate about what we do, this transends all generations. You can't teach this, and no amount of money is going to purchase it. If you want good employees, don't hold them to the same expectations you hold for yourself, as you will only be disappointed. Instead, find out what motivates them, let them feel they are part of the team. They will either catch on or they will have to move on; this sh*t ain't for everybody.


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## buff (Aug 24, 2006)

I know you are a highly qualified individual. But, are you married to your children's mother?


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## l2edneck (Aug 24, 2006)

> I know you are a highly qualified individual. But, are you married to your children's mother?



Nope :hmm3grin2orange: You? :bang:


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## Ekka (Aug 25, 2006)

Russell Freeman

Nice post, especially the last few lines, you should post here more.

Gen xers, Y's whatever ... all a load of BS, about as stupid as trying to lump everybody into 1 of 12 star signs or 1 of 4personality traits or 1 of 3 forums.  lol


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

If you belong to one of those generations, can you please tell me that you have never done drugs and if you are married to the mother of your children.


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 25, 2006)

Not sure WTF it has to do with this thread but I'll bite, Yes I have done drugs, and Yes I am married but no children. Whats the point of questions like this?????


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## arboralliance (Aug 25, 2006)

*Education...*

C'mon "buff" educate us...


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## TackleTree (Aug 25, 2006)

sounds like someones trying to get the young crowd fired up. Dont fall for it. There is no way to prove yourself on a forum. Go out work, try to have fun doing it, and hopefully make some money, get home safe everyday. I hate when these forums get stupid like this one has. I am now dumber for having read this forum.


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

What you really hate most is when the forum starts hitting close to home.


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## arboralliance (Aug 25, 2006)

*Listening...*



buff said:


> What you really hate most is when the forum starts hitting close to home.



Yes buff, keep going, keen to hear what it is your trying to say...


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## freemanruss (Aug 25, 2006)

*Am I married to my children's mother?*

What about the baby boomers that sold out freedom to the man? Do you even know what freedom is? It ain't in your mortgage payment or the note that you carry on your bucket truck, I can tell you that. Fact is, most people my age that I know don't even have children because they have seen what a drain your supposed American dream can be. Who wants to have kids they can't afford? who wants to work 60 hours a week and never see their wives because the wives are having to work 60 hours a week too? 
Let's face it, we younger folks have been shown the hypocrisy of the generations now in power and don't want to live in the apathetic pseudo-happiness of the supposed American dream, we now have more than 2 news sources, we have many different media sources available to us than you did. Craftsmanship is dead in America, work ethic is endangered, and I assure you, we didn't do it. We were just lucky enough to have been taught something closer to the truth of the foilbles of this supposed land of the free than previous generations. I read your history books, and sorry, Colombus did not discover America. So don't be angry that we think differently than you, be happy that we are on track to change this bullsh*t system of delegate democracy. Why not read something other than Arbor age for your world view, you might get a clearer picture.
So, for the record, I don't have children, I don't do drugs, but I really don't think any of this really has much to do with my breeding habits anyway.


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## freemanruss (Aug 25, 2006)

*How many Baby Boomers are divored?*

How many Irish are alcoholic? How many gen Xers smoked their first joint with their friend's single parents? We learn from the society we live in, we are products of our environments, some of us are fortunate enough to be compelled to look a little more closely at the things around us and what has been accepted as fact. Sorry man, but the sheep have stopped listening to the sheperd just because he's the sheperd. Respect is not inherent, nor should it be. Respect your employees, and they will respect you. This has nothing to do with a time clock or busted equipment or the fact that somebody was born in 1980 or 1970 or 1960, for that matter. Treat people poorly and they will respond poorly. Invest some time in getting to know who your employees are, find out what motivates them, mutual satisfaction is a two way street.


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## spacemule (Aug 25, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> the only thing Gen Xer's smell is the interior of the brand new Lexus mommy and daddy bought for them when they got a "c" average on their report card. every punk kid i dealt with from age 20 to 29 seriously believed that if they went to college, partied and took a few tests... they came out expecting...i mean OWED an $80,000 job from the 1st day. time to wake up. how's that house hunting going? i love hearing the stories about the gen Xer's not being able to afford a high priced house that all us REAL MEN had to earn.


I'm an X'er. Can you tell me how to be a real man, Treed?


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## romeo (Aug 25, 2006)

*I guess I am X'r*

I fit the age anyway, I wasn't into video games or any of that crap though. I started on a shovel when I was twelve years old and have been working ever since. I have seen hard and easy times. Is my generation a wreck, yea, and its their own damb fault. I cant believe some of the people my age that I know, how could they grow up so stupid??? Also the amount of childhood friends that I had that grew up to be crackheads?? This "generation" is the reason why they can only get paid $10 an hour. Sit at home and whine you lazy bastards... More for me HAHAHAHAHAHAA....

Also, I know as many worthless old farts as young ones.


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## a_lopa (Aug 25, 2006)

haha


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm still waiting for your explanation buffy. I was good enough to answer your questions honestly.

Do you think your moral highground somehow makes you better?

Are you just a bomb-tossing cyber tuff guy?? Its funny to me that the biggest gen X bashers on this thread have no info in their profiles..................guttless


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

I know you want me to say something but I do not know what to tell you. I am just not as unhappy with life as so many others here are. But in life, I will say that most of the problems we have are of our own making. 

Some complain that their employer will not buy them work shoes and clothes. It sort of reminds me of that little creature in the Lord of the Rings who kept waiting for his master to give him clothes. Some want their employer to discover what movitaves them. House payments, utilities, grocery bills and car notes are all it takes to motivate most individuals. You have to understand that your employer is not running a twelve step program or frat house. Most people come to work with their own motivation. I never had an employer who seemed interested in my motivation, if I had any or if he could give me some of his. I am not sure that someone else can give it to you if you do not have some of your own. I read here also that some grown men complain that they have no education because their parents would not pay for it. I guess they are still waiting for someone to discover a motivation for them to pay for their own education.


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

SPACEMULE...You are asking for someone to tell you how to be a real man.

It may help if I tell you about my father who died in 1994. He was a real man. My father stayed on the same job for 39 years. I never knew him to take a sick day or day off for any other reason other than scheduled vacation time. When I was older I realized that my father had spend all of his money on his family and none on himself. I never saw him drunk and he never took drugs. He was married to my mother for 56 years before death separated them. My father never cursed in front of the family and I am pretty sure that he did not do it elsewhere either. He was an honest man with a kind of build in dignity that people recognized and respected. 

I am sure that I must have disappointed my father from time to time when I was young. But my father never disappointed me. He was a real man.


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

SPACEMULE...You are asking for someone to tell you how to be a real man.

It may help if I tell you about my father who died in 1994. He was a real man. My father stayed on the same job for 39 years. I never knew him to take a sick day or day off for any other reason other than scheduled vacation time. When I was older I realized that my father had spent all of his money on his family and none on himself. I never saw him drunk and he never took drugs. He was married to my mother for 56 years before death separated them. My father never cursed in front of the family and I am pretty sure that he did not do it elsewhere either. He was an honest man with a kind of build in dignity that people recognized and respected. 

I am sure that when I was young I must have disappointed my father from time to time. But my father never disappointed me. He was a real man.


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## b1rdman (Aug 25, 2006)

buff said:


> SPACEMULE...You are asking for someone to tell you how to be a real man.
> 
> It may help if I tell you about my father who died in 1994. He was a real man. My father stayed on the same job for 39 years. I never knew him to take a sick day or day off for any other reason other than scheduled vacation time. When I was older I realized that my father had spent all of his money on his family and none on himself. I never saw him drunk and he never took drugs. He was married to my mother for 56 years before death separated them. My father never cursed in front of the family and I am pretty sure that he did not do it elsewhere either. He was an honest man with a kind of build in dignity that people recognized and respected.
> 
> I am sure that when I was young I must have disappointed my father from time to time. But my father never disappointed me. He was a real man.




If that's true it looks like the apple fell pretty far from the tree. I've been noticing your posts for a while now and I see nothing but a rude and classless punk.

This is a good site. Shut your mouth and read and you might make your dad proud.


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

B1rdman......I never took drugs. I graduated from college and have lived debt free on my farm for the past 15 years. I keep more cash in my sock drawer than you make in a year and I drive a Corvette. In addition to my income from investments and rentals, my wife makes $80,000 annually. What have you been doing with your life? Are you caught up on your child support? Was that too classless to ask? About this being a good site...There are too many cry babies like you here.


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## clearance (Aug 25, 2006)

buff said:


> B1rdman......I never took drugs. I keep more cash in my sock drawer than you make in a year and I drive a Corvette.


Birdman, I get it now, Buff doesn't do drugs, he deals them, probably to kids.


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## TackleTree (Aug 25, 2006)

*Spam*

once again you cant prove yourself on any forum no matter if you make this much and drive this car and live free and clear on your farm which was probably left to you by your dad. Your not impressing or scaring anyone here. Get off your box and look in the mirror, save your foul attitude for another forum, no one here wants to waist time reading your posts. need only real people here who bust their a** everyday. No spam posts here. http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/spam.gif
:spam:


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

Here are a couple more sore heads who did not get any education because their mama would not pay for it. Hey, that woman you guys are living with that works part time at Walmart...you need to let it go and spend more time and money on your children. Get caught up on your child support.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 25, 2006)

buff said:


> I know you want me to say something but I do not know what to tell you. I am just not as unhappy with life as so many others here are. But in life, I will say that most of the problems we have are of our own making.
> 
> Some complain that their employer will not buy them work shoes and clothes. It sort of reminds me of that little creature in the Lord of the Rings who kept waiting for his master to give him clothes. Some want their employer to discover what movitaves them. House payments, utilities, grocery bills and car notes are all it takes to motivate most individuals. You have to understand that your employer is not running a twelve step program or frat house. Most people come to work with their own motivation. I never had an employer who seemed interested in my motivation, if I had any or if he could give me some of his. I am not sure that someone else can give it to you if you do not have some of your own. I read here also that some grown men complain that they have no education because their parents would not pay for it. I guess they are still waiting for someone to discover a motivation for them to pay for their own education.



that was a great response. i totally agree. why is it always the boss who has to light a fire under the employee's a$$ these days. it's called WORK. 

every employee knows that they are going to work NOT PLAY. this is the problem with all these 20 something guys. they are a truly lazy generation.


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## l2edneck (Aug 25, 2006)

*Hahahaha*

:deadhorse:

edit;oh wait im 31 do i still qualify as an x'r?

What does happen when u drink n post?


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## buff (Aug 25, 2006)

TreeInnovator......Better watch out. Some guy with a pony tail and prison tattoos will be calling you a classless punk too.


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## squisher (Aug 26, 2006)

This is sad


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## Ekka (Aug 26, 2006)

Well, it's a bit of a mix in here, employers, employees, older and younger and some in the middle.

I think when it costs the employers more than wages you tend to get tough. when jobs have to be rebooked and sometimes lost coz some-one let you down ... you get pretty pissed off with it.

In a small outfit, 3 to say 5 man crew and business it affects things a lot if say the climber or truck/chipper driver doesn't show up. many employers then get smart and try to get people who can climb and have a truck licence etc ... multi-skilled and tasked people, and pay more for them.

It's like insurance. So for the good guys get your tickets and skills up and you'll get more money ... and your opportunity will come. But never forget, this is the tree business and there is always going to be same hard yakka.


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## freemanruss (Aug 26, 2006)

*HEy buff...*

Hey man, for someone so contented with his education, finances and station in life you sure seem pretty ?????ing miserable to me. I have raised, in my opinion, some very good points here, which would seemingly thin the lines between us and them. All you can do is dog out everyone on here with your self-righteousness and guile. I don't understand why you haven't addressed me personally. Intimidated? Outclassed? You seem only interested in how you can feel better about yourself by pissing on ANYONE else. I feel sorry for you man. 
For someone with an education, you sure have a narrow focus.


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## buff (Aug 26, 2006)

A narrow focus?......Yes, I am guilty of that. When I was younger I focused only on my studies and staying out of trouble. Later I only focused on my work while paying off my farm and all other debt. Now I mainly focus on enjoying life. Like I said before, I am just not as unhappy with life as so many others here. Anyway, what kinds of things do you focus on?


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## b1rdman (Aug 26, 2006)

buff said:


> B1rdman......I never took drugs. I graduated from college and have lived debt free on my farm for the past 15 years. I keep more cash in my sock drawer than you make in a year and I drive a Corvette. In addition to my income from investments and rentals, my wife makes $80,000 annually. What have you been doing with your life? Are you caught up on your child support? Was that too classless to ask? About this being a good site...There are too many cry babies like you here.




Yes, it is quite classless to ask the child support question.

I graduated from college too..three times. I paid for all of my degrees by myself.

EDIT: I did drugs in college.

You must have a big sock drawer...but good for you.

Married, two kids, no child support. 

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: 


Did you have a point or are you going to continue to insult people bases information that you clearly pull our of your arse?


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## TackleTree (Aug 26, 2006)

buff said:


> Here are a couple more sore heads who did not get any education because their mama would not pay for it. Hey, that woman you guys are living with that works part time at Walmart...you need to let it go and spend more time and money on your children. Get caught up on your child support.


SPAM


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## TackleTree (Aug 26, 2006)

buff said:


> TreeInnovator......Better watch out. Some guy with a pony tail and prison tattoos will be calling you a classless punk too.


SPAM ALERT


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 26, 2006)

b1rdman said:


> Yes, it is quite classless to ask the child support question.
> 
> I graduated from college too..three times. I paid for all of my degrees by myself.
> 
> ...



you got 3 degrees...do you have 3 jobs in addition to tree work???


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## Log hog (Aug 26, 2006)

*Just don't care.*

Thats it, I think that most workers and alot of people in the world now a days just don't care. I Have found that women on average make the best employees. I have had five of them and paid them all at least ten and hour and more and one up to fifteen.Then one I paid fifteen to could run my chipper, stump grinder, my skid steer and back a trailer up better than most guys, and she was very easy on the eyes, oh I almost forgot her age she was seventeen when she started working for me and move to Florida when she turned nineteen. I feel that women in general have that caring and nurturing affect given to them at birth. Which makes them better workers and they give a sh1t. Some of the girls can't drag the biggest piles of brush, or lift the largest pieces of wood, BUT there consistent, don't complain much if at all, are always on time, and give a 100% and care about what there doing. I find them easier to communicate with, especially directions. Now I won't hire any woman to work for me, trust me there are alot of them that are too worried about there hair and there nails and make up. Them I can do with out So not all woman are great workers but the % that I have hired were good. I now have a twenty year old working for me, I asked him the other day to get me a wedge out of my tool box and bring it to me. I showed him a smaller yellow wedge I had, but needed my big ORANGE wedge. The air head brought back a yellow plastic tire chock.:jawdrop: How dumb can you be. I showed him the design and the color, WOW. Its the little things all the time that drive me nuts. This a guy now that is working for me. He is like this all the time, some days hes in the game the next in Disney world. I could pay this guy twenty dollars an hour, hes still gonna suck. I don't feel the more you pay the better they work, you have to show me that you want it, it's not owed to you, some people got it and some don't. I tell them out front, I need you in the game mentally and physically and I will pay accordingly. The more you give , the more I give. I have nothing against paying good money for a good employee. All in all I feel in general that most people just don't care any more, about any thing. Its just plain hard to find that perfect employee. Or even some one close to it.


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## b1rdman (Aug 26, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> you got 3 degrees...do you have 3 jobs in addition to tree work???



I don't do tree work, I just hang around here becuase I like cut wood.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 26, 2006)

b1rdman said:


> I don't do tree work, I just hang around here becuase I like cut wood.



do you have 3 full-time jobs ???


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## b1rdman (Aug 26, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> do you have 3 full-time jobs ???




Nope..just one.


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## spacemule (Aug 26, 2006)

buff said:


> B1rdman......I never took drugs. I graduated from college and have lived debt free on my farm for the past 15 years. I keep more cash in my sock drawer than you make in a year and I drive a Corvette. In addition to my income from investments and rentals, my wife makes $80,000 annually. What have you been doing with your life? Are you caught up on your child support? Was that too classless to ask? About this being a good site...There are too many cry babies like you here.


Are you looking for validation? I'm unsure whether you're simply putting my generation down or just trying to receive accolades for yourself. And, by the way, there is _no_ legitimate reason for keeping large amounts of cash in a sock drawer. I've yet to meet an honest man who does.


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## Climb020 (Aug 26, 2006)

spacemule said:


> And, by the way, there is _no_ legitimate reason for keeping large amounts of cash in a sock drawer. I've yet to meet an honest man who does.



Very true. I do it so the government can't find it. And buff what does any of your posts have to do with the topic at hand. Mpthing that I can see. So you are an arrogant f&ck. So you drive a corvete....oh yeah remember that VW commerical. He is compensating for his short comings. If you cannot contribute to the topic take your crap else where.

Also another point for the lazy 20 somethings. It also has much to do with the way those kids where raised. Now a days you have to worry about DYFS and all the legal crap to punish your kids. They don't understand responisiblity. But this generalization isn't for all but is a reason for some.
What I would like to see is how many of the hard workers here where raised on the hand and foot punishment style? I know I was and if I didn't work hard enough, do something right, or put things back I got a crack to make sure I would next time.


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## clearance (Aug 26, 2006)

spacemule said:


> And, by the way, there is _no_ legitimate reason for keeping large amounts of cash in a sock drawer. I've yet to meet an honest man who does.


Space, like I said earlier, Buff is dealing drugs, probably to kids, thats why the sock full of green, all fives and tens. Dealing drugs is not dishonest, stepping on them, using a "buffer" to dilute them is. Thats how he got the name Buff. This is too funny, the guy so asked to be mocked.


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## diltree (Aug 26, 2006)

Did I mention you appear ignorant when you stamp a stereotype on any large demographic.....how can we even continue a discussion about an ignorant stereotype, I think enough levelheaded successful 20 year olds chimed in here to put this topic to rest.......why cant you guys give this up, its completely ridiculous!!!


www.dillontree.com


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## Ekka (Aug 26, 2006)

Log hog said:


> I now have a twenty year old working for me, I asked him the other day to get me a wedge out of my tool box and bring it to me. I showed him a smaller yellow wedge I had, but needed my big ORANGE wedge. The air head brought back a *yellow plastic tire chock*.:jawdrop:



Hahaha, I can see that happening.

I'm gonna start a new thread called ....

I had a guy once who .... all contributions invited but they have to be true and preferably funny.


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## Bermie (Aug 26, 2006)

Thanks for the positive shout for women, loghog, maybe one reason you have good results (apart from your open attitude!) is that when we work in a male dominated arena we have to WORK to prove that we deserve to be there. There is initially an extra burden of proof that is required, agree or disagree, it's been my experience consistently, mind you society here is quite chauvanistic in the labouring trades.
Women are just like the rest; an equal opportunity to work, respect given WHEN it has been earned, fair treatment and fair reward for your labour. Nuf said.

As for employees, when I worked in hotels doing landscape maintenance, I had 3 staff, shouldn't have been difficult, but I boiled down my introduction to the job to this: 'Turn up on time and do what you are told', if I could get someone to do that consistently (like three weeks running!) then we could move on from there, more training, more allocation of responsibility, encouraging independant thought and initiative. 

Respect seems to be such a buzzword, and these days employees (broad generalization sorry) seem to think that respect should be dished out from day one, what ever happened to EARNING it? Equally a boss should portray and create a working environment that fosters respect.

I will now climb down from my soapbox.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 26, 2006)

Bermie said:


> Thanks for the positive shout for women, loghog, maybe one reason you have good results



nah, he was just being nice to her cuz he was trying to score.


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## Treeinnovator (Aug 26, 2006)

b1rdman said:


> Nope..just one.



well that's pretty typical of the generation in question. they stay in college as log as possible to avoid work.


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## b1rdman (Aug 26, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> well that's pretty typical of the generation in question. they stay in college as log as possible to avoid work.



I wouldn't know, but that seems like an awful wide brush you're using there.

I did the college thing for 4 years full time and I worked 30 hours a week during school, 60 - 70 in the summer. After that it was work/school at the same time. 

Maybe I'm an anomaly..I dunno.


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## Log hog (Aug 26, 2006)

*Talk to me girl!*

Its good to hear from a woman, and hopefully a woman who takes pride in what ever she does. For what ever reason I feel men in most aspects of life feel that women can't do what a man can do. This is not true at all, woman can do what ever a man can do, but some times in limited capacity. I speak from experience, I would rather have a woman try her darnedest and not be able to drag as much brush as the guy who could drag more but only when he seemed fit to do so and was just along for the ride waiting to collect his check. I can lift more and drag more than any woman. But they can still do the same just not as much. My experiences tell me that when the woman I have had work for me work with more heart. They are willing to do what needs to be done and thats that. Now in a different field like an accountant or a nurse or doctor or what ever she is, is very likely just as good if not better than a man. So unless you have worked side by side with a woman in the tree service field then you have no idea what I am talking about.


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## nitwit dolt (Aug 27, 2006)

*Women in trees*

My wife was almost thrown off a job because the cleint thought women didn't do this type of work. I'll take a women on my crew any time. They pay better attention, they don't trample the delicate stuff, they do a better job cleaning up, and they do it with alot less ?????ing. Log hog is right that they might not be able to match physical strength, but attitude goes much farther.


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## Bermie (Aug 27, 2006)

Being a woman in this line of work you have to be honest about what you physically can and cannot do. I will never be as strong as you chaps, and maybe not as fast, but I love what I do and trust it shows in the final product!

Back to employees, a certain portion of people here are doing outdoor work simply 'because it's a paycheck' NOT because they are interested in the work, and that leads directly to indifference and sloppiness, all they want at the end of the week is $$$. Trying to motivate them or have them discover a reason to be self motivated is a chore, if not impossible!


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## RolloriClimber (Aug 27, 2006)

*age doesn't matter*

the last four years the companys I've worked for the owners have been older than me around the same age and now just recently alot younger.

They all are the laziest I have ever seen in my life they want to pay you cheap and want you to use all your equipment down to your truck to pull their [email protected], and to top it off have the lowest knowledge I have known in this biz to where I been Teaching them instead of them teaching me,but they just want to go out underbid some jobs and then expect me to pull miracles out of my but to get them done.
Rarely do I recieve remburstment for fuel mix fuel rakes files saw repairs any safety equipment,or wear and tear on my truck. that is lazy I don't know how they got in this biz , but then they go get their family wealth to buy a chipper and then use people and then stabb them in the back short pay them and other sorts . 

things keep going like this a mail person rep won't even come close to me. 

Employees are like equipment don't keep them up and take care of them the equipment will fail and break down on you .


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 27, 2006)

^ yea i dont know where bosses get off on thinking they can just go use your truck. 

MY truck, MY insurance, MY insurance rates on the rise if there is an accident or whatever. BOSSES: GET YOUR OWN TRUCKS! just becasue i have a truck DOES'NT mean i want it used by everybody, or have ???? thrown in the back!. OOOOH the 20 bucks gas you threw in is great! that'll help pay for the now damaged transmission that you created by not shifting properly.


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## buff (Aug 27, 2006)

SRT-TECH......The solution to your problem is a simple one. Tell your boss that your insurance agent advised you that you can no longer use your truck for commercial purposes because you are not insured for it. And tell him when you show up for work. Do not wait until he gets in a bind and ask to use your truck to get out of it. Also, do not allow your boss to use your truck off road for the same reason. If he ask how your insurance agent found out that you use your truck on the job, say that you do not know but the subject came up the last time you talked to him. Everytime you use your personal truck on a job you are opening yourself up to a new level of liability that you are not insured for. 

ROLLERCLIMBER......If you know more than the people you work for why are you still working for them. Get what you need to gether and start doing your own jobs. Either that or stop complaining.


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## TreeChick217 (Aug 27, 2006)

*hardest worker.. needs a raise!*

Hey guys. well i joined this site awhile back and i havent been on in a long time. I was looking for a job in the tree industry and now I have one. My boyfriend just bought a Tree Service that was established about 15yrs. ago and its doing better than ever right now.. I work for his competition. ha. I've been there almost 5 months and now am "offically" one of the go-to-gals for all the new guys. since being there I have seen worker after worker show up, work a day, or a week, collect their pay, and never show up again. I find this hard to understand. As most of you being men, wouldn't you, just for the simple fact of me being a woman and being able to kick your butt by the end of the day, show up again? isn't it a pride thing for men to not let women beat them at anything? well, I assumed so. i love my job, there are some things I dislike very very much, none of it to do with my work load. I keep up with everyone else, sometimes doing more just because I'm the one everyone is watching, waiting for me to slip up. they've realized its not going to happen and they've eased up on me a bit. Anyway, to the point of this post, I'm working with two guys my age.. one 18 and one just turned 21. Both of them, total jokes. Never show up, show up half drunk, all they talk about is the party from the night before. talk about how they are broke and dont get paid enough. I get so sick of listening to it. I AM A GIRL..i show up EVERY SINGLE DAY ON TIME, never miss any work.. always reliable, eager to learn. My boss' wont even let them touch our bucket truck.. i'm the ONLY one who drives it to our jobs. guess who was in the bucket friday? yeah. me. pathetic.. they have no motivation, they have no goals, i dont know why they are there. they complain about working until 5? wow. but guess what drives me INSANE.. as you have read, these guys are the ones everyone keeps getting and they drive you nuts too.. they make more money than me. I've been there LONGER than them... i do more than them. i take on more than they do... I am the one who teaches them what to do, how to rope, how to start a chainsaw, how to cut properly so they don't cut their legs off, how to run the chipper..commen sense stuff.. i make $7.25. i work for one of the lowest paying companies in my area... pleaseeeee tell me how i can get a raise without sounding like i'm saying "give me one or I'm gone" i dont understand? I'm 18 years old, I have bills, a loan payment, I dont live at home... i'm a g i r l..i bust my butt everyday, but i get paid the same, or less than the POS boys that stumble along these jobs. this isnt where i plan to stay forever.. My big goal is to start a landscaping company, but I have things to take care of before i set off in the direction, I am totally committed to the company I work for, but my boss is so hard on me. I've seen guys cry after getting screamed at, and when I do, I simply ask how to correct the problem, move on,and dont complain. Forget about ear plugs to protect my ears from going deaf, i need them for the cry babies i work with, tired of listening to them whine!. help ....


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## Jumper (Aug 27, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> ^ yea i dont know where bosses get off on thinking they can just go use your truck.
> 
> MY truck, MY insurance, MY insurance rates on the rise if there is an accident or whatever. BOSSES: GET YOUR OWN TRUCKS! just becasue i have a truck DOES'NT mean i want it used by everybody, or have ???? thrown in the back!. OOOOH the 20 bucks gas you threw in is great! that'll help pay for the now damaged transmission that you created by not shifting properly.



From another thread:

2. Same boss two weeks later, I just finished telling the client that he was not really that bad a guy after they queried how I worked for him given his anger management problems. (actually true I meant it) and boss shows up, blows a gasket over SFA in front to clients (second time that day) and suggests i take the afternoon off. So I load all HIS equipment off MY truck (his was broken in the garage), left him a bill for 64 hours which he had avoided paying for weeks and left hime there with a lawnful of equipment and trailer that was going no where fast. I did get paid after about another month....


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## Jumper (Aug 27, 2006)

TreeChick217 said:


> .. i make $7.25. i work for one of the lowest paying companies in my area... pleaseeeee tell me how i can get a raise without sounding like i'm saying "give me one or I'm gone" i dont understand? I'm 18 years old, I have bills, a loan payment, I dont live at home... i'm a g i r l..i bust my butt everyday, but i get paid the same, or less than the POS boys that stumble along these jobs. this isnt where i plan to stay forever.. My big goal is to start a landscaping company, but I have things to take care of before i set off in the direction, I am totally committed to the company I work for, but my boss is so hard on me. I've seen guys cry after getting screamed at, and when I do, I simply ask how to correct the problem, move on,and dont complain. Forget about ear plugs to protect my ears from going deaf, i need them for the cry babies i work with, tired of listening to them whine!. help ....



$7.25 is appalling, amounts to slave labour. But you have let your boss get away with it to date. A number of choices, be poor the rest of your life, or demand a raise to $10 at a minimum. If not look for a new job, and if necessary move.

As for whining men, there is a reason that the US Armed Forces don't meet their recruitment goals, aside from the prospect of being shot. One in three US 20 somethings(male or female in all these cases, and I am not picking on Americans, Canucks are exactly the same)is a morbidly obese slob, who could not work a physical job. One third more does not have a clue what physical labour involves, and the remaining third are hardworking kids like yourself that will bust their ass for a boss/organization/company/their country if treated with respect, and yess buff that includes decent pay and benefits. 

You are selling yourself short at present.

PS Man this thread took off like wildfire. A lot of frustration out there on all sides!!!!


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## RolloriClimber (Aug 27, 2006)

yeah well I guess I should quit complaining, but I have a morgage to pay and 2 daughters that probly climb better than a few guys I worked with,and any decent companies are way to far to drive just to get to the shop in mornings, 1 company local that was decent I started with them about a month to a month and half ago didn't have to bring anything, they supplied it all, but work slowed for them and I got laid off with about 8-10 others even though they said I was the best spikeless climber they ever had . this last week they offered me to come back but, I found that if worked slowed they would just lay me off again , and I also found out more about there accident history because of their work ethics which I didn't care for.
Buy the way my Wife is my insurance agent.


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## RolloriClimber (Aug 27, 2006)

TREECHICK

I agree with Mitch " Jumper" . I started in this biz back in 1993 94 , I had no experience no driver lic. never touched a chain saw in my life didn't have a clue what a chipper even looked like and they started me at $7.00 a hour and that was in Florida at the time the lost labor wages around. I was runnig a saw a stump grinder a chipper and changing blades on the chipper and teeth on the stump grinder with in the first month working there.

There you didn't have to ask for a raise regardless what you did you got a dollar a year and every time you progressed with your performance you got a raise driver lic. got a raise cdl get a raise so on so forth .

guess they kinda spoiled me with that because I have left companies with out a word because after a year I didn't recieve a raise when I more than proved myself as a company person and a team player.


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## buff (Aug 27, 2006)

TreeChick217......I have made the same observations about the workforce as you. But I must tell you that here we are not allowed to tell the truth about the workforce in the tree business or talk about generation X or Y. If you do, you will be met with people in pony tails with prison tattoos who are behind on their child support and do not know how to buy work clothes and shoes who will call you a classless bum.


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## SRT-Tech (Aug 27, 2006)

buff said:


> SRT-TECH......The solution to your problem is a simple one. Tell your boss that your insurance agent advised you that you can no longer use your truck for commercial purposes because you are not insured for it. And tell him when you show up for work. Do not wait until he gets in a bind and ask to use your truck to get out of it. Also, do not allow your boss to use your truck off road for the same reason. If he ask how your insurance agent found out that you use your truck on the job, say that you do not know but the subject came up the last time you talked to him. Everytime you use your personal truck on a job you are opening yourself up to a new level of liability that you are not insured for.



It only happened twice. NEVER AGAIN. Not even with that company anymore.

I found about the how the boss was driving the truck, becauase several friends of mine saw my truck SPEEDING down the road, and I was'nt driving it (both my truck and I are distinctive looking.). They could hear a misshift, grinding gears, lugging engine. I held my anger until i was home from the shift, otherwise i might have pushed someone into the chipper...


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## spacemule (Aug 27, 2006)

Hey buff, are you ignoring my question?


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## buff (Aug 27, 2006)

The question about the cash in a big sock drawer?......$15,000 to $20,000 does not take up as much room as one would think. An empty checkbook box easily take it all in $100 bills. More than that I take to the bank. I actually do not keep money in my sock drawer. It is back in the closet in the gun vault. A person needs to keep some money in real estate, some in stocks and bonds, some in a savings account and some in cash. I could not have survived hurricane Rita without cash. During the aftermath of hurricane Rita the electricity was off for two weeks. After a while, some food stores, building material stores and the like opened up without electricity. And guess what? They all wanted cash. And you would be so surprised to know the number of carpenters, roofers and tree companies that wanted only cash too. Yes, the tree guys responded so well to cash. Although I am certain that they so dutifully reported it all to the IRS. Or do they keep an illegal stash as you report? There are also other people who will only work for cash and some who will only sell their equipment, atv's, golf carts or whatever for cash. Especially, if you have to travel long distances to make the purchase. They do not trust checks from out of town people and they do not have the experience to recognize a good certified check. Anyway, I do not know if this answers all of your questions and I am not sure if I could. You say that you have never known an honest man who kept any cash. Well, I just can not say about the types you know. And, I am sorry if I have some cash and you don't. Do not get mad at me about it. There is nothing I can do about that. Oh yeah, one last thing. You said that you graduated from college three times. I know you do not want to hear this but I graduated from college more than that. Combined with hard work, that's how I got my cash.


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## spacemule (Aug 27, 2006)

buff said:


> The question about the cash in a big sock drawer?......$15,000 to $20,000 does not take up as much room as one would think. An empty checkbook box easily take it all in $100 bills. More than that I take to the bank. I actually do not keep money in my sock drawer. It is back in the closet in the gun vault. A person needs to keep some money in real estate, some in stocks and bonds, some in a savings account and some in cash. I could not have survived hurricane Rita without cash. During the aftermath of hurricane Rita the electricity was off for two weeks. After a while, some food stores, building material stores and the like opened up without electricity. And guess what? They all wanted cash. And you would be so surprised to know the number of carpenters, roofers and tree companies that wanted only cash too. Yes, the tree guys responded so well to cash. Although I am certain that they so dutifully reported it all to the IRS. Or do they keep an illegal stash as you report? There are also other people who will only work for cash and some who will only sell their equipment, atv's, golf carts or whatever for cash. Especially, if you have to travel long distances to make the purchase. They do not trust checks from out of town people and they do not have the experience to recognize a good certified check. Anyway, I do not know if this answers all of your questions and I am not sure if I could. You say that you have never known an honest man who kept any cash. Well, I just can not say about the types you know. And, I am sorry if I have some cash and you don't. Do not get mad at me about it. There is nothing I can do about that.


What makes you think I'm mad at you? Tell you what--since you don't seem to be able to comprehend what a question looks like, I'll quote my entire post but leave the _only_ question I asked highlighted.


spacemule said:


> *Are you looking for validation?* I'm unsure whether you're simply putting my generation down or just trying to receive accolades for yourself. And, by the way, there is no legitimate reason for keeping large amounts of cash in a sock drawer. I've yet to meet an honest man who does.


Now, can you tell what my question was? Oops, that's another question. I hope I'm not confusing you.  Hell, I'm on a role! So, as long as I'm on a role, do you mind if I ask you another question regarding what your major in school was? What was your major in school? Oh my my. That's two more questions!


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## buff (Aug 28, 2006)

What was my college major? I have more than the three degrees you report you earned. None of them are about how to cut a tree down. But I like my BA in economics and my Master's in Business the best. I have a nine page transcript with just over 400 hours. Now I just expect that you will get all bent out of shape about that and find something wrong with it.


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## spacemule (Aug 28, 2006)

buff said:


> I have eight degrees. None of them are about how to cut a tree down. But I like my BA in economics and my Master's in Business the best. I have a nine page transcript with just over 400 hours. Now I just expect that you will get all bent out of shape about that and find something wrong with it.


I'm not trying to find something wrong with you buff--I'm just contemplating the circumstances that cause a person to make such posts as yours. You seem insecure.


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## buff (Aug 28, 2006)

I seem insecure? You are the one asking for someone to tell you how to be a real man.


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## buff (Aug 28, 2006)

spacemule said:


> I'm an X'er. Can you tell me how to be a real man, Treed?



Remember this?


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## spacemule (Aug 28, 2006)

buff said:


> Remember this?


Hmm, my confidence in your reading comprehension levels dwindles with each of your posts. Did you really read that literally?


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## stihlatit (Aug 28, 2006)




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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 28, 2006)

buff said:


> I seem insecure? You are the one asking for someone to tell you how to be a real man.


:
Thanks for the tips, you are definately a real man, thank you, I was wrong in all of my previous posts, you are truly a genius, 8 college degrees WOW!
My generation sucks, I can't believe how wrong I was. Thank you for showing me the light. Because of you I'm going to start paying my child support and get off of the heroin and crack, and stop playing video games, and stop swearing. I'm even going to have all of my tattoos removed and I promise to get a haircut.


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## buff (Aug 28, 2006)

You may as well keep going like you are going. It is too late for you.


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## spacemule (Aug 28, 2006)

buff said:


> You may as well keep going like you are going. It is too late for you.


Buff, after the ignorance and ineptitude you've shown in this thread, if I were you I'd be too embarrassed to post anything else. But then again, I guess you have to have honor before you can be embarrassed.


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 28, 2006)

buff said:


> You may as well keep going like you are going. It is too late for you.


Thanks for the O.K. on my life choices Buffy. I was getting ready to buy a farm and a 'vette and give up on it all...........................

I was hoping for more sound advice on becoming a man and all I got was a story about some lame-a$$ dead guy.


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## speelyei (Aug 28, 2006)

*standin up*

well a lot of guys are willing to stand up for a pat on the back, i might as well stand up and take the heat.
Born in '72, Im about as Gen X as they come. Shaved head, goatee, you know the look.
Mostly, I hang out at my folks house, or at my apartment, but since Kevin broke my *********** 2, there's not a lot for me to do, and plus, Im in hot water with everyone there cause I havent paid my share of the long distance bill, and the phone's been shut off. I rigged up the cable box and I've been watching some cable, for free, but I wouldn't pay for it 'cause it all sucks anyway.
I got a job working for a tree company 'cause they were one of the few that didnt piss-test you to get hired. Its pretty cool, Darrin hooks us up with weed sometimes, and we got overtime. I like it 'cause not many people will do it, period, but the pays not great and I dont mind taking a day off now and again, like every week.
I snagged a set of spurs once and sold 'em off the truck, but it was fine, the owner shorted me on a paycheck the week before, and an eye for an eye I always say. I steer clear of doin side jobs on the clock, 'cause you will get busted for that, but I've swapped loads of chips for cases of beer or sold chips for twenty bucks.
As far as I can tell, I got hired to cut down trees and feed stuff into the chipper. I dont do anything stupid, like cut metal posts with the saw or feed rocks in the chipper, but I don't turn a wrench either. I'm not a mechanic.
I've always got an eye out for a move up the ladder. If the right job came open, I'd probably go clean for a couple weeks. I'm pretty good with the Latin nomenclature, maybe I'll slip into a bidder/estimator job. I've thought about starting my own company, but it's pretty hard on $10/hr to come up with the license, bond,insurance, not to mention the rolling stock. Hell, just a chipper and truck runs you like $60 Grand. What's the point? Then I'd just be another type "A" hot head with a cell phone and an ulcer and a four wheel drive.
The company sends us to a lot of stuff, seminars, and conferences. The free t-shirts are cool and stuff, and Kenneth won a free rope. It gets pretty rich at those things, though. Guys sportin wood about this rope or that saddle. I'm sure some of those guys wear their Arborwear to the bar to pick up chicks. The seminars are sometimes vaguely interesting, but how many times can you see a guy rig a branch off a cow hitch before it gets old? Then you got all the pretend rock climbers, that's pretty awesome. Approach shoes and enough carabiners to climb lost arrow spire, gettin all huffy on the internet 'cause some guy eight states West of him doesn't want to wear a pair of $90 kevlar German pants...
When I listen to all the guys gettin misty about the love of trees and puttin bumper stickers on their car, or wearing those "Ground Guys with Attitude" shirts, I just can't believe it. I'm here for the check. Nothing more expected, nothing more extended. If it was a different day and age I'd probably be clubbing seals or running one of those giant water guns for a strip mine. Maybe I'll just "slip" off the chipper one day and go on comp. then I can play *********** all day every day. 
Anybody got an openings? I hold the speed footlock record for my area....


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## Grace Tree (Aug 28, 2006)

What kind of an opening are you looking for: fiction writing?


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## buff (Aug 28, 2006)

SPACEMULE......I am happy that you are off of drugs now. Just get rid of those prison tattoos and catch up on your child support.


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## spacemule (Aug 28, 2006)

buff said:


> SPACEMULE......I am happy that you are off of drugs now. Just get rid of those prison tattoos and catch up on your child support.


That's not my writing there, buff. I don't have any alter egos.


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## b1rdman (Aug 28, 2006)

Buffy, ya got everyone all mixed up...

You can't even remember who did drugs/ who didn't. You're blaming everyone for being behind on child support while no one has said such a thing. You think software developers earn 15 - 20k a year, and you're trying to compare your 8 degrees to Spacemule's 3 (where did that come from ?). You have , by your own admission,a great deal of education(in business and economics even) yet you let cash sit around doing nothing while it could be working 
for you. What's up the the debt free farm???? If you have the cash flow and have diversified your investments (you claim you have)then you should be getting a loan on that place just to make some more money. 

Unless...perhaps....money is not important to you. That would explain why you've settled for a 'vette, but it contradicts the 'sock drawer' and 'wife's salary' bragging.

What can I say? It's entertaining. Keep up the good work.
(sarcasm...look it up)


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## Bermie (Aug 28, 2006)

Now now kiddies, if we all can't play together everyone will have to get out of the pool and go home. 

Hi Treechick, great to hear from another femme! Sounds like you need to find a new job! I can totally sympathize with you, been there, done that, oops, still doing it! I'm a lot older than you and I can STILL work circles round some people, drives some guys crazy! 
Some unsolicited advice, take care of yourself, we love what we do, but find time for 'pampering' the odd visit to the spa works wonders! :biggrinbounce2: 

Now, have those guys stopped insulting each other yet?


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## buff (Aug 28, 2006)

B1rdman......When I took my first economics class the professor said that at the end of the semester we would know more about economics and business than 97% of the people....after only one course. You are evidence of that.


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## squisher (Aug 28, 2006)

all you useless putz's posting insults in here are starting to piss me off. I check out your profiles and they aren't even filled out. I'll bet you idiots don't even know how to climb a tree. I read these threads because I want to learn more about tree care. You fools are ruining a good thing.

THE RIPPING SQUISHER


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## spacemule (Aug 29, 2006)

squisher said:


> I read these threads because I want to learn more about tree care. You fools are ruining a good thing.
> 
> THE RIPPING SQUISHER


May I ask why you're reading a thread entitled "&^%$#@! Employees" then?


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## OTG BOSTON (Aug 29, 2006)

*what was this thing about????*

oh yeah I had to go back to the beginning to figure it out. Jumper posted some good observations about the younger workforce The next few posts were totally negative about what younger workers want and how they work. Then it really went downhill from there. 
WE ARE THE NEXT GENERATION OF OWNERS AND MANAGERS and WE CAN TELL YOU HOW TO MANAGE US!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If you don't want to listen or can't comprhend what we are trying to tell you THAT"S YOUR PROBLEM not ours. If you can't adapt quickly in this business you'll be out of it soon enough.


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## buff (Aug 29, 2006)

If it was one of your sore heads that sent me the PM, I deleted it out without reading it. But if it makes you feel good, you can keep writing them and I will keep deleting them.


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## b1rdman (Aug 29, 2006)

*It was me...*



buff said:


> If it was one of your sore heads that sent me the PM, I deleted it out without reading it. But if it makes you feel good, you can keep writing them and I will keep deleting them.



I was looking for the college, course , prof of your first economics course. 

Just looking to learn something new.

Thanks


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## squisher (Aug 29, 2006)

I wanted to know other people's problems or experiences with hiring, training, and retaining employees. Not senseless babbling and insulting.

I have one employee/groundie. She is my mother-in-law who also happens to be a competition bodybuilder. I am in my first season of self-employment and will be looking to pick up atleast one more employee for next year.

Now maybe you understand why I would be reading this thread.

As far as me sending any (pm)or anything else to anyone computers are not my forte chainsaws are. I can barely log on here.

:greenchainsaw:


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## Grizzly (Sep 8, 2006)

whith helper that I am training to eventually become employees. I keep them on a fixed daily wadge that they are happy about and what I am able to pay them. I tried theohourly thing and they would Milk the job till I had no bottom line to work with. I prety much told them to :censored: off and trained another person that was in it for the money because the resurant he was working at Jipped him for a weeks pay which is what he made in one day working for me. He had potential. 
Serously interview your potential new workers and make sure that are motivated and willing to work for you at what you can afford, not what they say they want.


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## Grizzly (Sep 8, 2006)

spacemule said:


> May I ask why you're reading a thread entitled "&^%$#@! Employees" then?



That told him off.


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## squisher (Sep 8, 2006)

sad thing is I'm still reading this thread and still don't really know why

    if you want it done right do it yourself or get me to do it


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## Grizzly (Sep 8, 2006)

squisher said:


> sad thing is I'm still reading this thread and still don't really know why
> 
> if you want it done right do it yourself or get me to do it



Or you can Hire me to make it look like it came from a magazine, for the whole season.
Let me guess... your a home owner that trims your own trees and your own grass.


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## squisher (Sep 8, 2006)

Dude are you actually 18 and saying this to me. By my calculation I was running saws before you were born. I grew up in Lumby, B.C. Canada my grandfather was one of the founding fathers. Ya Lumby sounds like lumber all my time growing up three mills in town and two just out of town 5,000 people living in the town. I don't mow lawns I cut and climb trees. I rigged for a highlead while you were graduating from elementary school if you actually did. From checking your profile and reading some of your posts I'm not all that sure.

I'm not claiming to be more than I am I've got alot to learn about trees and total tree care but atleast if I take my one employee out for a drink (my mother-in-law) I'm allowed in the bar.


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 11, 2006)

squisher said:


> Dude are you actually 18 and saying this to me. By my calculation I was running saws before you were born. I grew up in Lumby, B.C. Canada my grandfather was one of the founding fathers. Ya Lumby sounds like lumber all my time growing up three mills in town and two just out of town 5,000 people living in the town. I don't mow lawns I cut and climb trees. I rigged for a highlead while you were graduating from elementary school if you actually did. From checking your profile and reading some of your posts I'm not all that sure.
> 
> I'm not claiming to be more than I am I've got alot to learn about trees and total tree care but atleast if I take my one employee out for a drink (my mother-in-law) I'm allowed in the bar.




HILARIOUS!!!!

I can't believe I'm still reading this either...........................


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## Jumper (Sep 11, 2006)

Common now, he is a tree "surgen" at 18.


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## Grizzly (Sep 12, 2006)

squisher said:


> Dude are you actually 18 and saying this to me. By my calculation I was running saws before you were born. I grew up in Lumby, B.C. Canada my grandfather was one of the founding fathers. Ya Lumby sounds like lumber all my time growing up three mills in town and two just out of town 5,000 people living in the town. I don't mow lawns I cut and climb trees. I rigged for a highlead while you were graduating from elementary school if you actually did. From checking your profile and reading some of your posts I'm not all that sure.
> 
> I'm not claiming to be more than I am. I have alot to learn about trees and total tree care but at least if I take my one employee out for a drink (my mother-in-law) I'm allowed in the bar.


 Do you read what you write?

You may have be beat by your age and experience behind a chainsaw or in a lumber mill, but I have over come more obstacles at 18 as a tree surgeon then what my fellow class mates that I GRADUATED from HIGH SCHOOL could even think of. I had to grow up early to make my company work at the same pace or even faster than my competition in town.

On top of that, I just got two calls to nock down 6 large trees each. That ought to cover this month.


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 13, 2006)

Hey Grizz,

this:deadhorse: means you're beating a dead horse, not beat it out of 'em.

the ironic part is you're ACTUALLY beating the horse. Please let this thread die, it has lived a long useless life


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## Grizzly (Sep 13, 2006)

ok.
With the dead horse it resembles some of my customers when it came time to pay whats owed.


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## treebogan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Fair enough*

I belive there is a fair bit of truth in all of the example given about generation X.I've worked in France,Germany,England,Canada,New Zealand and now here in the States.I belive if you have lazy,slack,demotivated help it's the bosses fault firstly and not really a reflection of the local labour pool.Up here in Alaska there are well paying jobs a-plenty,right now you can go pull insulation off the pipeline for twenty odd bucks per hour,why drag brush for ten when a beer costs $6 with tip?If your boss has a structured reward system for extra effort,a "carrot" that the guys get to bite once in a while and crew leaders that buy lunch every now and again for the boys and can hand that recipet to the boss for reimbursement you create and enviroment where the staff feel part of the "family" you get less breakage,more knowledge sharing and a culture of trust.As we all know who wants someone untrust worthy on the Porta wrap.


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## buff (Sep 16, 2006)

If you believe that the quality of job applicants in America is the fault of the boss, they you have never been a boss. Supervisors who do hiring can not teach people to read and write, add and subtract. Nor can they get employees out of bed in the morning. Any one who has worked all of their life can tell you that they never had a supervisor wonder about the source of their motivation, if they have any motivation or if he could get some from the supervisor.


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## ddhlakebound (Sep 16, 2006)

buff said:


> If you believe that the quality of job applicants in America is the fault of the boss, they you have never been a boss. Supervisors who do hiring can not teach people to read and write, add and subtract. Nor can they get employees out of bed in the morning. Any one who has worked all of their life can tell you that they never had a supervisor wonder about the source of their motivation, if they have any motivation or if he could get some from the supervisor.




Ive hired, trained, scheduled, managed, and sometimes even fired crews of 25 - 30 people for ongoing lengths of time. 

If I had someone on my staff who could not read or write, or do simple math......It was my fault, I hired them. 

If I had crew that wouldnt get out of bed to come to work........It was my fault, I hired them. 

If the person doing the hiring isn't capable of making judgement decisions which turn out to be accurate, maybe someone else should be doing the hiring.......

Ive worked all my life, and I've had plenty of supervisors "wonder about the source of my motivation"

As a supervisor, I've discussed many times "motivations" with my crew. People have to be trained, molded, and managed to get the employee you want. But if you don't start with quality stock, no amount of training, molding, and managing will get you the employee you want. 

There are plenty of quality employees around....of all ages.....knowing how to tell the good from the bad is the crux.


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## Grizzly (Sep 16, 2006)

ddhlakebound said:


> Ive hired, trained, scheduled, managed, and sometimes even fired crews of 25 - 30 people for ongoing lengths of time.
> 
> If I had someone on my staff who could not read or write, or do simple math......It was my fault, I hired them.
> 
> ...




that is so true. Hell I've had to fire people on their first day because they were just sitting arround. It sure wasn't a matter or glorification, but yet I finally got to the point were they were milking the profit out of the job. I have bills that are going to get paid before some lazzy mofo is getting paid.


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## buff (Sep 16, 2006)

Where is this land of plenty of good quality labor? None of us live there.


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## ddhlakebound (Sep 16, 2006)

Its really more of a mindset or optimistic outlook than it is a location. 

If you believe you can find honest, reliable, hardworking help, you are right. 

If you believe that all the potential employees out there are unintelligent, lazy, and unmotivated, you are right. 

Sure, everyone will have to filter through some "chaff", but good people can be found. No one is ever going to be perfect in how they make judgement decisions re: applicants. 

Most times, good people know they are what employers are looking for. If they are not treated with respect, and compensated fairly for their efforts, they will keep looking until they find a good employer. Or until they are the employer. 

It is my contention that employers who continually claim that there is no good help to be found really dont want to put out the dollars and/or effort to find and cultivate quality help.


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## jonseredbred (Sep 17, 2006)

ddhlakebound said:


> If I had someone on my staff who could not read or write, or do simple math......It was my fault, I hired them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ddhlakebound (Sep 17, 2006)

jonseredbred said:


> That is a dangerous statement, not for nothing but some of the best tree guys and employee's I have ever met fell into this category. This "group" is the easiest to motivate, as they are in tune with the fact they need to work for a living to survive in this world. If you cant motivate this "group" maybe you should re think you management principles. I cant believe you would post such a statement, you sure missed the mark.



How is this a dangerous statement? 

Any employer who fails to screen their applicant to the point that the employer is unaware if the candidate is capable of reading and writing, or doing simple math is simply muddling through, looking for fresh meat to do the labor. 

If you have guys who are great workers, but can't read a work order without the foreman to tell them what to do, can your company produce without the foreman?
How do the illiterates do at following written maintenance instructions? 
When you are training them, do you read all written material to them, or do they just initial it and go on?

I'm sure there are some great treeworkers out there who had little or no schooling. But if I'm looking for new employees to hire and train, basic skills are a quick/easy starting point to see how capable they are of learning. 

For the most part, anyone who is hungry is the easiest person to motivate, the job field doesn't really matter. 

I've never had a problem motivating people. Its rather easy to keep a happy, productive, motivated crew. But it does take respect and good leadership. 

If you think I missed the mark, maybe you're looking at the wrong mark.


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## Jumper (Sep 17, 2006)

I have worked with a few people over the years, both in the tree biz and out, who I suspected could not read. 

It came to a head one day at company #1 when three of us set out to start a large condo job, all the contract climber wanted to do was climb (OK fine) leaving Dan and myself on the ground. Dan could not read the work order to tell Mark where to go next/what to do etc (he was senior to me in terms of time with the company). Mind you by his own admission he was pretty well screwed by excess use of coke, and smoked dope daily on the job. I often wonder what became of him, as he really was not a nasty person, just need to get his life in order.


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## jonseredbred (Sep 17, 2006)

ok, ok I might not have read all the threads up to yours. I saw that statement and wrote.

I do have illiterate men on my crews, it is a challenge sometimes but the value each one of them brings to my company outwieghs the negs.

They have been with me so long they know how I sell work and what is expected. I simply go over with them each morning the job in detail and I have never had a problem.


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## Jumper (Sep 17, 2006)

Look at the Jacques Demers story:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2212397

I would encourage illiterate employees to get some instruction and support-not being able to read through no real fault of one's own is a real injustice, especially here in North America. My paternal Grandfather could not read very well due to dyslexia (sp?) and I also suspect at least two of my uncles could not read either-they grew up on farms before 1950 and not being able to read was no big deal. They did learn to work HARD though. Iron men.


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## ddhlakebound (Sep 17, 2006)

jonseredbred said:


> I do have illiterate men on my crews, it is a challenge sometimes but the value each one of them brings to my company outwieghs the negs.
> 
> They have been with me so long they know how I sell work and what is expected.



They sound like some hardworking, loyal, reliable guys. 

If they are inclined, start teaching them as much as you can, during drive time, or for an hour or two one evening a week. Or maybe even bring in a tutor for the group once a week. 

I cant see a reason why they wouldnt want to learn to read and write, and if you facilitate that, they'll be even more loyal. And more valuable to you too......


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## buff (Sep 17, 2006)

Eighty percent of high school graduates in America only read and write in an illeterate to semi-literate fashion. And they have about zero math skills. They can not read a ruler, do fractions or perform any math functions in their head.


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## clearance (Sep 17, 2006)

buff said:


> illeterate


Buffy, I understand you are not part of the other 20%, can't even spell, funny again, thanks for the laugh.


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## Jumper (Sep 17, 2006)

I think he passed spelling class but failed typing as he did spell "literate" correctly in the same sentence! I give him the benefit of the doubt,


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## PWB (Sep 17, 2006)

buff said:


> Eighty percent of high school graduates in America only read and write in an illeterate to semi-literate fashion. And they have about zero math skills. They can not read a ruler, do fractions or perform any math functions in their head.



IF that's true, then 80% of high school graduates in America shouldn't have graduated! Everything you listed should be accomplished by about grade 5!

Blame the education system?


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## Jumper (Sep 17, 2006)

Education is big business/big government to the nth degree. I think a lot of parents are wisening up-look at the popularity of home schooling these days. 
Back to the topic-do not think I would knowingly hire someone who could not read, it would severely limit their employability at some future point.


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## spacemule (Sep 17, 2006)

buff said:


> Eighty percent of high school graduates in America only read and write in an illeterate to semi-literate fashion. And they have about zero math skills. They can not read a ruler, do fractions or perform any math functions in their head.


Reference please. Oh, and for future reference, "illeterate" is spelled with two i's.


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## ktsand13 (Sep 18, 2006)

*I am a GenXer and I worry about my peers*

Yeah, I didn't finish readin all 13 pages before I posted this so if someone else raised the same flag so be it. I come form Todd county, MN. About as poor as it gets. I went to High School and Graduated near the top. I had a hard working pair of parents. 
First tax paying job I ever took was de-tassling corn when I was 11. I had to move about 50 miles away. The work was only for a month. I paid my grandparents 10 dollors a week rent. Worked from 0600 until dark. Got paid $5.00 an hour. I didn't care at the end of a the month I had about $1200 in my pocket.

After that I learned there are easier ways to make money. Like Bailing hay and picking rocks for $6 an hour. I worked almost every sun shining day of my life during the summer break of school and then worked nights during the school year. After a few years of being a reliable worker I eventually got my hourly pay moved up to about $10 and hour. Every farm I worked on, lawn I mowed, or factory I stepped into after a few years of hard work I carried with me a real simple set of rules. "Establish yourself as an asset, Learn everything about the job that you can, Work so hard that your boss couldn't fire you if he/she wanted to." That's it. You want to get a raise, you earn it. When I graduated High School my old man said he would put me thru college if I wanted to. I got there and was so bored that after a month I took a job in a factory in town working from 5 pm until 1030 pm. After a year or so of that mess I quit college and joined the Army. So what? After a year in the Army I had paid back my old man the $10,000 that he had fronted for me to go to college. If you ever take anything for free it will cost more than you had originally recieved. 

I know my peers that stayed in college all to well. Their whiny stories are all the same. "I have four year degree, I stuggled through some hard times, the price of gas is to high, I couldn't get the car I want because I didn't have enough credit, and why should I take a job that only pays $30 dollars an hour."

I am 26 years old and as much as my generation is capable of I don't think that there is a whole lot of intent on tapping into that potential. Too many parents that foot the bill for college is probably the start of the problem. My old man would have paid if I let him but that's not the way I am. Unfortunately many of my peers will take anything for free that anyone will give them and that is a huge mistake.

If I ever get married and have children the only promises I will make to them is 18 years worth of hot food, a bed, and a warm house. Other than that nobody owes their children any more. If you raised them right they will set out on their own without your help in fact they ought to refuse it when you offer.

By the way anybody looking for a hard worker for summer 2007?


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## buff (Sep 18, 2006)

Thanks to everyone for pointing out my typo.


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## treebogan (Sep 18, 2006)

*Whittier Alaska?*

Is that where you are Grizzley?


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## Jumper (Sep 18, 2006)

Whittier is also in California, home of "Tricky Dicky".


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## treebogan (Sep 18, 2006)

*Cool!*

Was gonna say,tree company in Whittier Alaska is like an Ice factory on the north slope.


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## treebogan (Sep 18, 2006)

*Cool!*

Was gonna say,tree company in Whittier Alaska is like an Ice factory on the north slope.


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## elmnut (Sep 19, 2006)

It takes around 15 working people to pay for one retired persons social security benefits, in 10 years it will be around 25 to one. I know that this does not matter to alot of folks, but for people on the up and up it makes more sense to educate people with an interest in our industry. Take the time to go your local educators and offer your help. Don't scream at someone for not knowing what they are doing, show them how you want it done. The younger generations have been raised by parents who want their kids to have everything that they themselves could not. It can be a hard transition from having everything handed to you, to working for it, or everyone plays, to survival of the fittest. In our industry going to college shows a commitment to something, it needs to be explained to people that 80,000 a year is possible, but it all starts with work ethics and a spring rake.


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## buff (Sep 19, 2006)

ktsand13 said:


> If I ever get married and have children the only promises I will make to them is 18 years worth of hot food, a bed, and a warm house. Other than that nobody owes their children any more. If you raised them right they will set out on their own without your help in fact they ought to refuse it when you offer.



I would want your children to get more from you than a bed, hot food and a warm place to sleep. This is what we give to prison inmates. I would hope that you owed your children a lifetime of love and care. I would also hope you would take time to teach them how to become productive, contributing memebers of society. And, I would hope that you educated them to the full measure of your ability so that they could make the best living possible.


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## TackleTree (Sep 20, 2006)

Buff, I hope your better half raises or raised your kids. You have a warped mind and hope you are taking your meds. If your kids grow up like the pompous a$$ you are they will be in for a rough life. If they were smart they already realize what an a$$ you are and have taken a different route in their lives. Guys like you should be taken behing the woodshed and beat!


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## Jumper (Sep 20, 2006)

ktsand13 said:


> If I ever get married and have children the only promises I will make to them is 18 years worth of hot food, a bed, and a warm house. Other than that nobody owes their children any more. If you raised them right they will set out on their own without your help in fact they ought to refuse it when you offer.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Your opinion and I respect it.
> ...


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## Jumper (Sep 20, 2006)

TackleTree said:


> Buff, I hope your better half raises or raised your kids. You have a warped mind and hope you are taking your meds. If your kids grow up like the pompous a$$ you are they will be in for a rough life. If they were smart they already realize what an a$$ you are and have taken a different route in their lives. Guys like you should be taken behing the woodshed and beat!



Please explain your hissy fit that proposes beating???? Like that ever solved many problems.


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## buff (Sep 20, 2006)

JUMPER......Better watch out or TackleTree will take you to the woodshed for a beating.


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## TackleTree (Sep 20, 2006)

There is a place to talk about it if you wish. It is somewhere on this site. HK is a hint

Jumper if you want to read all of Buffs posts ( not reccomended) but it explains the woodshed!


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## buff (Sep 20, 2006)

JULMPER...Beating in the woodshed?......That is the kind of tough love that TackleTree received and he recommends for others.


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## Jumper (Sep 20, 2006)

Might work for some, children and employees included, but I have observed that that appraoch usually creates nothing but more and more hostility, and less and less output. My 2 cents.


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## TackleTree (Sep 20, 2006)

No just for people like you buff. As i knew before hand when I have addressed you in any of these threads, it is a waste of time. Just like your life.


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## buff (Sep 20, 2006)

Get rid of those prison tattoos and get caught up on your child support. Your kids hardly know you.


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## TackleTree (Sep 20, 2006)

I will no longer stoop to your level buff. I have more important things to do unlike yourself. Like removing my prison tatoos and pay child support for my fictional kids.


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## buff (Sep 20, 2006)

Well, at least you are getting rid of the tattoos.


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## rebelman (Sep 20, 2006)

I have long hair. I can always shave my head if I freak out. My girlfriend does hair, so I could get it cheap. Ever see that Demi Moore movie where Bruce Willis is an unemployed bum/ abusive boy friend? If you listen real close, you can hear him say "tree trimmin'--that's work! You cut hair! You cut effin hair!" Hats off to all you hair dressers out there. By the way, Demi killed his ass. Off topic prolly, whatever.


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## TackleTree (Sep 20, 2006)

rebelman said:


> I have long hair. I can always shave my head if I freak out. My girlfriend does hair, so I could get it cheap. Ever see that Demi Moore movie where Bruce Willis is an unemployed bum/ abusive boy friend? If you listen real close, you can hear him say "tree trimmin'--that's work! You cut hair! You cut effin hair!" Hats off to all you hair dressers out there. By the way, Demi killed his ass. Off topic prolly, whatever.



No worries. It is good to read about something else.


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