# roasting newbies



## jrietkerk (Mar 25, 2007)

Bumped into a guy working on my street, who seemed very confident at first. Couldn't help but notice the WW1 steel helmet and lack of safety glasses, and then upon closer look, the climbing line was like 10 or 11mm halyard line from a sailboat, knicks all over it, knicks and burrs all over the prussik cord used for friction hitch, the spurs in the live tree, and the kids running around the work zone. Sitting on the fir branch he's tied into, lanyard around the fir stem as a backup, but not tied over any branch. . . He struggled to the ground after a few questions and I then roasted him for the above reasons and more, but he is a certified arborist and runs a successful business blah blah. Funny part was he was wearing a Butterfly harness. . We may all differ in small ways, but if someone is not being safe and tarnishing our industry and hurting trees, I think they should be corrected or stopped. He is trying to learn, reads arboristsite and other sites - I'm sure he's reading this - if you can't afford to take time to learn from a professional and train, you can't afford to take the risk of climbing trees at all. Do your kids a favour and stay on the ground for a while - consider some time apprenticing with a climbing arborist an investment. I feel bad about giving you a hard time, but we all work hard to be professional - I don't like it when people waltz in with a website address and fancy harness and charge money as a climber. Like I said this is a small city and close group of arborists who are protective about the urban forest and the work in it. One more thing - don't use those ascenders you mentioned without getting some instruction first!


----------



## beowulf343 (Mar 25, 2007)

Ok. here is one of the biggest problems i've run across-experienced climbers don't want to teach newbies the right or safe way to do things. This guy sounds like he may want to learn-did you ask him to maybe get together and you can do some "rec" climbing and maybe show him a different or safer way to do things. When i started out, i ran into the same problem-climbers would ridicule or tell me i was doing it wrong, but wouldn't show me the right way. I think they were afraid i was going to take their jobs. And that is just sad, climbers more afraid that they might lose work instead of worrying about the safety of a newb. Fortunately, i was able to hook up with some excellent climbers who weren't afraid to teach me everything they knew. And i swore that if anybody came to me for help, i would help them. Not saying i'm the best climber around, because i'm not, but if a few of the tricks i've learned over the years can help a climber out, i'm more than happy to share them. Instead of roasting the guy-why not invite him to work with some of this group of arborists or with you? Around here, a group of us climbers get together every month and go over new techniques or share things we've learned over the years. We are always happy to welcome new guys who honestly want to learn. Why isn't this group of arborists doing this?
Don't get me wrong, give me a guy who thinks he knows it all and i am more than happy to flame him. But a guy who is honestly trying to better himself-remember, we all had to start somewhere.
I'll get off my soapbox now.


----------



## hornett22 (Mar 25, 2007)

*agreed,find someone with the time to help.*

i have had a couple guys offer to help but they never seem to have the time or you never hear back.i have begged and pleaded,even offered to pay for the time which i think is only fair,no dice.

if you are going to criticize,be preppared to help with a solution.

i think i have done well learning on my own but i'll always admit i can learn alot more.


----------



## jrietkerk (Mar 25, 2007)

good points - I learned from the ground up, and suffered through years of working various areas of hort and arboriculture, then being a ground guy for some awesome climbers who taught me a tonne. But I didn't go out and charge money for work when I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't decide to be a climber and then jump right into it after buying a fancy harness. I did offer some good pointers for this individual, like reading up on ANSI standards, maybe reading 'Tree Climber's Companion', and doing some research into local tree issues, pathogens and bylaws. I also invited him to check out our local climbing jamboree, where he can network with others and get the basics. He can't afford to work at an entry level tree worker job, as it doesn't pay enough, he said. He comes from logging and is moving into urban arboriculture - he's on his way and I welcomed him to the industry, but you have to learn the ropes before you climb them. It seems like this to me: I want to fly jets, but I can't afford the time in the military, so screw it, I'll just get my dad to buy me one and I'll fly people around, learn as I go, check out some websites maybe. . . Not to say we're jet pilots, but climbing without regard for safety can be just as dangerous. 'Roasting' is an exaggeration for my reaction to him - he was appreciative for the input, but didn't believe me at first. I will see him around and help where I can, if he can afford the time to learn. What do you say to someone climbing a halyard line? My point with all this is protecting the standards and reputation of tree care people, specifically climbers. We have a bad enough rap as it is, with only accidents making the news or the public eye.


----------



## 046 (Mar 25, 2007)

there's absolutely no excuse for climbing a sub par life line! 

120ft hank Safety Blue goes for what.... $72 http://store.baileys-online.com/cgi-bin/baileys/5805?mv_session_id=MIYcc7Rn&product_sku=12SBV 120

What's your life worth?

Anyone using a high end butterfly harness has the means to purchase a modern line.


----------



## Sprig (Mar 25, 2007)

Welcome, nice ta see another BC'er here (and me mom is in Vic too)! Good first posts (rec) btw. Its hard to watch someone doing things wrong or sub-standardly, no doubt. Hopefully he will take what you have said to heart and either seek you out on some spare time or find someone who can further his education, his life and family may depend on it as there is no room to mess around above the ground (hey that rhymed ). Every so often I run into situations where I observe my friends attempting to do things the wrong/hard way, just for a piece of mind I'll make the time, and take the time to give them advice, a lesson if needed, and so on. To not do so would make me feel pretty crappy if something went wrong and I "could have" prevented it by giving some pointers, I don't sleep well as it is. The ones who won't heed good advice for pride or what-ever really piss me off as the only thing to do is walk away and try not to feel bad for rejection....something like that. 

 

Serge


----------



## cntrybo2 (Mar 25, 2007)

*let it go man*

with all this talk of your just trying to prevent the industry from looking bad and people think arborists are bad people talk, it makes it sound like you guys are stealing babies in the night and pushing down elderly people! Around here, arborists are just arborists, there really is no lime light. In my area we have TONS of hacks and a good core group of knowledgeable arborists. The ones that want to be better and more knowledgeable will do so, the ones that just want to make a dollar "cuttin' trees" will tank and the only thing left of there work will be a few stubs left on trees and some doctor bills. let it go man, I totally get your point and I what you are saying but we are a bunch of grown men and you cant change minds that dont want to be changed


----------



## hornett22 (Mar 25, 2007)

*i agree,there are hacks everywhere.*

i never knew how cheap people could be until i moved to southern new england.i thought southerners were bad but this place takes the cake.there are cheaper places to live but i guess they are just to cheap to move there.i can't wait to leave but i pay the piper while i'm here.

i know guys here climbing on 20+ year old rope,nicks and all.i was going to replace mine every year just for the hell of it.guys say wait at least two years.why? over $100? not worth it to me.

i see equipment run right into the ground,they just throw it in a pile and get another one.maintenance is alot cheaper than a new 395xp.i was trying to sell a 2100 xp and a guy came and looked at it.whined about the price and said he'd think about it.i sold it on ebay but he was calling 2 weeks later asking for it because his broke.oh well. i'd say live and learn but they don't. when you have it it's worth nothing,when they own it, it's gold.


----------



## jrietkerk (Mar 26, 2007)

I have let it go. I have however, called bylaw and police on a guy using similar methods on an Oak in my municipality. Old trees don't have time for hacks - their business might fold, but how many trees do they get to impact before it happens?


----------



## kevknep (Mar 26, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> I have let it go. I have however, called bylaw and police on a guy using similar methods on an Oak in my municipality. Old trees don't have time for hacks - their business might fold, but how many trees do they get to impact before it happens?



Out of curiosity, what law did you think he was breaking? What was your complaint to the police. I know most of us would hate to hear this, but some people/homeowners consider a tree property and do what they need to keep the tree from damaging more property. Everytime I hear someone say they drove by and called the police on another tree company because they didn't like what they were doing, it makes me wonder what would happen if a policeman showed up at your door and said that the mechanic down the street called about how you were fixing your car.


----------



## RedlineIt (Mar 26, 2007)

kevnep,

Frankly, the police here likely would not respond to any tree complaint other than imminent human peril or traffic blockage on a main road.

The tree preservation Bylaw enforcement offices are another story!

I'll assume jrietkerk's oak in question is a Garry Oak (Quercus garryana). Protected species here, among others. You need a permit to prune them, and if obtained, the permit will specify your allowed targets and indicate that all work will be done by an ISA certified Arborist without the use of spurs. Indeed, there is a first level of permit which allows maximum cuts of 10 cm (about 4 inches) diameter and a second level for cuts above that size. If you manage to obtain the above 10cm permit, it is likely you will be met onsite by a Bylaw officer who will, with his little laser pointer, make sure everyone understands the target limb.

Any of the top tree care companies in this town will take the permit process off of the homeowners hands as part of the job. A good record and a smooth liason with the tree preservation office is a very, very good thing.

This is not to say that some homeowners won't try to circumvent the process by hiring someone, anyone, who will just do it. (Usually after they were unsuccessful at obtaining a permit in the first place.) The Bylaw officers just love to get a 'phone call on these ones, and they'll halt work and write you up with a smile.


RedlineIt


----------



## jrietkerk (Mar 26, 2007)

yes, Quercus garryana, and a municipal one at that. I work for the municipality, so my call to police carried a bit more weight. Sure, most calls to police about tree work, certainly on private property, won't amount to much. The case in question was blatent incompetance though, and I thought the spurs deserved at least a threat of tresspass and damaging public property. Turned out there was some other issues with the tree worker the police were interested in as well. And the guy did have a positive response to some simple pointers about methods and safety - he just didn't know. But again, he went out and was charging money while he was in the state of unknowing. The client is as much at fault when I think about it. . . 
I try to sell the argument of urban forest as public utility all the time, so even trees on private property are of interest and concern to the entire community for many reasons. That's why we have preservation bylaws. Its tough to draw the line sometimes, but when the tree is in my neighbourhood, or one that I manage, I have no problems bringing out the pen to draw it.


----------



## kevknep (Mar 26, 2007)

RedlineIt said:


> kevnep,
> 
> Frankly, the police here likely would not respond to any tree complaint other than imminent human peril or traffic blockage on a main road.
> 
> ...



That makes more sense. I probably should have asked first, but where I am at, we don't have any ordinances like that for private property. Yeah, if there is a law being broken, definitely make the call. I have had a problem in my neighborhood with some out of town company using the construction dumpsters to off load their debris. I actually had to call the police after the builders saw my tree equipment and asked if I was doing the dumping.

I am a little touchy about anybody entering the job site though. We have a local home owners associate board member that loves to walk right into the middle of a job and start trying to demand approval papers (which aren't needed for dead trees), telling me I can't tell if a tree is a hazard by looking at it, it might just be dormant, etc.


----------



## kevknep (Mar 26, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> yes, Quercus garryana, and a municipal one at that. I work for the municipality, so my call to police carried a bit more weight. Sure, most calls to police about tree work, certainly on private property, won't amount to much. The case in question was blatent incompetance though, and I thought the spurs deserved at least a threat of tresspass and damaging public property. Turned out there was some other issues with the tree worker the police were interested in as well. And the guy did have a positive response to some simple pointers about methods and safety - he just didn't know. But again, he went out and was charging money while he was in the state of unknowing. The client is as much at fault when I think about it. . .
> I try to sell the argument of urban forest as public utility all the time, so even trees on private property are of interest and concern to the entire community for many reasons. That's why we have preservation bylaws. Its tough to draw the line sometimes, but when the tree is in my neighbourhood, or one that I manage, I have no problems bringing out the pen to draw it.




Gotcha. I think I spoke too quickly the first time. I probably should give you credit for taking the time to explain the basics to the guy. Sometimes I don't know whether to try to help or let the person be a candidate for a Darwin award.


----------



## RedlineIt (Mar 26, 2007)

kevknep,



> I probably should have asked first, but where I am at, we don't have any ordinances like that for private property.



Make no apologies my friend! 30 km (25 miles) to the west of the area with stringent preservation laws, you could dump a Garry Oak and turn it into firewood just because it pleases you do do so!

Knowledge of local law is key here and it can vary from one side of the street to the next.

There is a large section of one suburb that was only built (back in the late '70s) with the mandated adoption of "covenant trees." Some of the covenants cover individual trees of species that are beyond any other preservation bylaws. 

It takes some work, but in the end we all figure it out.



RedlineIt


----------



## clearance (Mar 30, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> yes, Quercus garryana, and a municipal one at that. I work for the municipality, so my call to police carried a bit more weight. Sure, most calls to police about tree work, certainly on private property, won't amount to much. The case in question was blatent incompetance though, and I thought the spurs deserved at least a threat of tresspass and damaging public property. Turned out there was some other issues with the tree worker the police were interested in as well.



Good God, and I thought it was just the tree huggers on that part of the Island that were the problem. The police are for emergencies only, you deserve a nightstick upside the head for wasting thier time. You "work" for the municipality you mean. What a sickening post. [/I]


----------



## jrietkerk (Apr 3, 2007)

police for emergencies only? Define 'emergency' Clearance. Damaging property? Perhaps theft? Do you have any police up there? Stick to logging and whatever your redneck gods tell you to do, like selling raw logs to the Japanese to fund your oversized pickup truck, or should I say cigarette and ???? retrieval machine. Stick to 'saving the other planets for later' or whatever your mantra is. I thought it was the hacks with chainsaws that were the problem up there - who taught you how to use a computer? Oh, sorry, maybe I should find out more about you before I start slinging insults and making ignorant generalizations. re: nightstick upside the head, 'work' for a municipality. 

The police were happy to respond to the call in question, and the gumby was taken away for other warrants. Sound familiar?


----------



## clearance (Apr 3, 2007)

I stand by what I said, I have been around long enough to know how hard muni/city workers don't produce. It is pretty common knowledge that Victoria is full of tree hugging, nimby types who are above it all. Remember that mutt politician you guys had, David Anderson? The guy that closed down the manned lighthouses, kept trying to stop offshore drilling, etc? Are you still pumping untreated sewage out into the ocean in front of Victoria? Of course you are. Was Victoria built from the profits from logging and mining in B.C., of course it was. Victoria and the Gulf islands are populated mostly by people who have a very strong belief in entitlement and being subsidized, away from the great unwashed. The Provincial capital should move back to the mainland, for starters. Too funny.


----------



## jrietkerk (Apr 3, 2007)

hey, I'm responding on my lunch break. What work aren't you doing while you bark at me? Talk politics all you want, I'm interested in trees. Don't stand too long behind the nightstick comment. . . . .


----------



## Sprig (Apr 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> I stand by what I said, I have been around long enough to know how hard muni/city workers don't produce. It is pretty common knowledge that Victoria is full of tree hugging, nimby types who are above it all. Remember that mutt politician you guys had, David Anderson? The guy that closed down the manned lighthouses, kept trying to stop offshore drilling, etc? Are you still pumping untreated sewage out into the ocean in front of Victoria? Of course you are. Was Victoria built from the profits from logging and mining in B.C., of course it was. Victoria and the Gulf islands are populated mostly by people who have a very strong belief in entitlement and being subsidized, away from the great unwashed. The Provincial capital should move back to the mainland, for starters. Too funny.



Hey hey clearence, the Gulf Islands are mostly populated by people who can afford to live here, then there are us artists, so, lighten up bud! Its sweeping statements like that, that hint of the odour of pre-judgement (but me mom does live in Vic. which _does_ have the wafting odors of, um something else. And furthermore, why in the world would you want the capital moved???? As per your statement, you'd think that'd be the last thing you'd wish to inflict on the 'mainlanders'! Isn't there enough riff-raff over there??


----------



## SRT-Tech (Apr 5, 2007)

Sorry Clearance , i would really prefer that Victoria keeps it elected criminals. We already have the DTES in Vancouver, we don;t need anymore excrement piling up the streets!


----------



## Streyken (Apr 5, 2007)

opcorn:


----------



## clearance (Apr 5, 2007)

Good one SRT, check this out on Google, just type in this: dope city 2+2


----------



## SRT-Tech (Apr 5, 2007)




----------



## RedlineIt (Apr 5, 2007)

> hey, I'm responding on my lunch break.



Well, jrietkerk, if you were out on a tree crew in the AM and traveled back to the depot to wash up and sit down for your lunch break, then that is all anyone needs to know about municipal employee production and actually makes clearance's "working" point for him.

And the police have better things to do, thus the very existance of the bylaw office, complete with officers. I'd have thought a municipal employee would have been able to figure that out.

But I know a great many municipal employees, so I realize that any disappointment I may have with you is my fault.



RedlineIt


----------



## beowulf343 (Apr 5, 2007)

RedlineIt said:


> Well, jrietkerk, if you were out on a tree crew in the AM and traveled back to the depot to wash up and sit down for your lunch break, then that is all anyone needs to know about municipal employee production and actually makes clearance's "working" point for him.
> 
> And the police have better things to do, thus the very existance of the bylaw office, complete with officers. I'd have thought a municipal employee would have been able to figure that out.
> 
> ...



   
That's awesome man!! Thanks.


----------



## clearance (Oct 13, 2008)

This is pretty funny thread, brought it up again.


----------



## rbtree (Oct 14, 2008)

Funny? I agree that the guy should have called a bylaw officer, not a cop.....but he was right to be concerned about a tree being butchered. Trees are a valuable resource, and urban trees need all the help they can get.

Says me, the tree killer....we've delivered 3.5 long loads to the sort yards just in the last 8 days......

But most were hazardous, or dead/dying/diseased......


----------



## clearance (Oct 14, 2008)

rbtree said:


> Funny? I agree that the guy should have called a bylaw officer, not a cop.....but he was right to be concerned about a tree being butchered. Trees are a valuable resource, and urban trees need all the help they can get.
> 
> Says me, the tree killer....we've delivered 3.5 long loads to the sort yards just in the last 8 days......
> 
> But most were hazardous, or dead/dying/diseased......



"Most", so you killed some healthy trees, becasue thats what the customer wanted, shame on you.


----------



## Wortown Mick (Oct 14, 2008)

jreit or whatever.. so your municipal eh? 

I guess that means the busy time of the year is coming up, putting up christmas lights and taking them down.. must be in for some OT
MA is making big cuts and I personally would like to see the ciy & state guys, who are doing the least work for the most pay get laid off. Theyve earned enough on our dollar with their no working after noon policies and such. 

Go change some lightbulbs 

rep fo clearance


----------

