# The bore cutting rage/fad



## clearance (May 21, 2007)

Not sure whether this should be in this category, seeing as so many of the bore cut advocates are not pros, but here goes. First off why? In the gov't Falllers and Buckers manual here it is shown for use on leaners only, but it is an option as other methods are shown as well. Now, people here that bore cut are rarely fallers so why not, to be safe, wrap a chain above the cuts and just use the triangle standard backcut? And why do people use it for straight up and down or back/side leaning trees? It is a method of falling that requires more cuts, more time at the stump, and more room for error. Are people just using it to be "cool", basically, WTF? And please state your experience, weekend warrior/firewood getter, arborist, faller, etc, thank you.


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## PA Plumber (May 21, 2007)

Not a professional faller, so maybe I meet the criteria.

On trees over my bar length (24") at the root flare, I will notch and then bore from the downhill/non-safe side of of the tree just behind the notch and then cut my way around to the safe side. This seems to help me keep my backcut a little above the notch along with keeping the backcut level.

I don't due a true bore (from both sides leaving a small portion of holding wood) unless it is a heavy leaner. 

Just my 1/2 cent's worth.


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## GASoline71 (May 21, 2007)

I have noticed this "fad" too. I can count on one hand the trees I have used a bore cut on over the last 25 years. One thing I bet some of the "bore cut" advocates don't do properly is remove the saw after making the bore cut and flip it over to cut the strap out with the bottom of the bar instead of the top.:help: 

Anyways... it is just a very unecessary and impractical way to fall trees safely if you ask me. Like clearance said... it takes more time screwin' around at the stump. You wanna make 3 cuts and get out of the way. Plus a lot of guys don't look up when makin' the bore cut. Don't know why... but they just don't. "Look up, Look out!"

There is a place for the bore cuts... but not on every tree. Guess it is just "fun" for some to do... but I digress. 

Gary


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## DonnyO (May 21, 2007)

*agreed*

As an Arborist the large butts that I fall are usually topped out anyway, and always have a pull line as close to the top as possible. I am in agreement with your WTF? stance on bore cutting. I just don't get it...........


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## frashdog (May 21, 2007)

PA Plumber said:


> Not a professional faller, so maybe I meet the criteria.
> 
> On trees over my bar length (24") at the root flare, I will notch and then bore from the downhill/non-safe side of of the tree just behind the notch and then cut my way around to the safe side. This seems to help me keep my backcut a little above the notch along with keeping the backcut level.
> 
> ...


pretty much same here, starts off looking like a bore cut


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 21, 2007)

A lot of the trees we bore they are being pulled against the lean. I find it eaiser to set up the cut, get the hinge where I want it then cut the strap when I know the ohter guy is on the crank.

As for looking up, I do not know why people would not do it on any fell. On a striahgt back cut i alternate between my wedge in the curf and the top of the tree and the ground guy on the rope.


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## BC_Logger (May 21, 2007)

Gasoline , Clearance I agree with you both 100 % the use of the bore cut is limited and if not done properly can lead to some serious issues , in my opinion people should stop thinking on how technical they look and just fall the dam tree the old way


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## BC_Logger (May 21, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> A lot of the trees we bore they are being pulled against the lean. I find it eaiser to set up the cut, get the hinge where I want it then cut the strap when I know the ohter guy is on the crank.
> 
> As for looking up, I do not know why people would not do it on any fell. On a striahgt back cut i alternate between my wedge in the curf and the top of the tree and the ground guy on the rope.




thats a text book use of the bore cut. preload, cut and run 

as for looking up , thats a common green horn mistake but just like Gasoline said in the past 

'there called a widdow maker for a reason rookie'

watch the ending

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EsfYR2kK81M


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## ShoerFast (May 21, 2007)

Week-end warrior here, have been for over 30 years, back in the time a lot of gobberment pamphlets were written, back in the age of solid-nose bars when nothing was the quality we see now. 

I will routinely use a bore cut if I am bucking from a pile of skidded logs, boring from the middle of the log up so the chain is cutting out of the dirty bark , tossing the dirt instead of cutting through it, really saves some chain. 

My idea of felling, keeping safe, if your learning something, practicing on trees that are not a serious problem , gaining the skills needed if a heavy leaner comes along, your that much ahead of the game. 

Having not yet found a way to use a bottle-jack with out doing a little bore-cutting? I think the equipment we use today can stand a lot boring and cutting with the top of the bar. Good judgment still applies. 

Using a bore cut and a release cut can buy you some retreat time.


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## Bermie (May 21, 2007)

*bore cut has its place*

Ok, I'm a climber and a limited feller - NOT masses of large trees on a commercial production basis. 
We have a lot of invasive trees that have to be felled, some of them have crazy leans from being windblown or have had tops blown out and regrown wierd or just grew with a lean to begin with. Their sizes range from 18" to over 3' diameters, from 20' tiddlers to 70' monsters. The wood is extremely hard.
I will use the bore cut for heavy leaners TOWARDS the direction of fall, that is, this is the way it's going, no doubt. Why carry a heavy chain and take the time to set all that up when a bore cut will achieve the same result - i.e, no barber chair and a controlled fall. Always taking into account the condition of the tree and its size, if it's badly damaged, there certainly is reason to chain or strap it in addition to the bore!

The other time for a bore cut is for felling trees larger than the bar I have, I will 'fishtail' that is, bore in through the front of the 'wedge', to remove some of the wood in the centre of the tree, to ensure that when I cut the backcut, coming in from one side and working around the back of the tree to the other (using wedges), that all the wood in the centre will be severed. With the hardness of the wood, this reduces the strain on the saw when it is buried in the tree as the bar is not cutting along its entire length. I don't yet have the $$$$ for a bigger saw, when I do get one, I won't need to fishtail, just blast on through, but it is good to know and practice cuts that will allow you to fell trees bigger than your biggest available bar!

It is a type of cut, that when used APPROPRIATELY is extremely useful. 

In the UK the bore cut and its appropriate application is taught right from the beginning of training (after the student is safe and competent with regular cuts), with heavy emphasis on the inherent dangers that go with it. Several of the guys I trained with had been professional foresters in Wales.

My 5cents!:greenchainsaw:


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## PA Plumber (May 21, 2007)

I'm not sure why a bore cut would be more unsafe than a traditional backcut. If a tree has obvious lean in the desired felling direction, why not notch, bore and cut the 1" strap (with the bottom of the bar)? I had a long time logger show this to me a couple of months ago. It gives the feller plenty of time to remove himself/herself from the base of the tree and still gives all the benefit of control. 

Now, if the argument is that on borderline situations it can be easily used inappropriately, then I understand why it shouldn't be used as regular practice. I personally do not prefer it because it seems more natural to work my way around the tree leaving wedges and then wedging over if necessary. I guess the other thing that just came to mind, is the strap would probably be where I would like to place my main lifting wedge and that sure would be inconvenient!


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## smokechase II (May 21, 2007)

*bore cutting and geography*

Anyone notice any tendencies so far?


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## rbtree (May 21, 2007)

Yep, easterners and Euros are the only ones who seem to like bore cutting.....maybe due to training from people like Ard and sorenson, who certainly are accomplished fallers and trainers. 

I agree with clearance, the triangle shaped hinge is a technique I use in a tree to cut head leaners. It seems to mitigate the risk of barberchair effectively, and is simpler than bore cutting, plus, besides the quarter cut, works for small wood where there's no room to set wedges. (No wedges needed for head leaners), As for back/side leaners , I have never seen a reason or need to preset the hinge and bore cut later. It means you have to set wedges on the sides of the strap...and hope that the preset hinge width is correct. I'd rather set wedges, cut up the bad side to where it looks right, then ease into the hinge from the safer side, while watching, reading the movement, and wedging or pulling.


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## bound (May 22, 2007)

Well, for what it's worth, up at Paul Smith's College in New York(upstate, not city) I was a forestry major for one semester. The first thing they taught us there after saw safety, was felling using a bore cut and wedges to control the fell. They talked a lot about how much safer it was and how much more control you had with the bore cut. So there's a forestry school's perspective. The instructors were all Game of Logging certified to teach and certify the students, so it could well be a Euro thing. Who knows. I'm still learning as much as I can. I don't get why some of y'all are so against bore cuts, though. It's one more useful technique, among many.


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## GASoline71 (May 22, 2007)

rbtree said:


> Yep, easterners and Euros are the only ones who seem to like bore cutting.....maybe due to training from people like Ard and sorenson, who certainly are accomplished fallers and trainers.
> 
> I agree with clearance, the triangle shaped hinge is a technique I use in a tree to cut head leaners. It seems to mitigate the risk of barberchair effectively, and is simpler than bore cutting, plus, besides the quarter cut, works for small wood where there's no room to set wedges. (No wedges needed for head leaners), As for back/side leaners , I have never seen a reason or need to preset the hinge and bore cut later. It means you have to set wedges on the sides of the strap...and hope that the preset hinge width is correct. I'd rather set wedges, cut up the bad side to where it looks right, then ease into the hinge from the safer side, while watching, reading the movement, and wedging or pulling.



Great post Roger! I also see the geographic trend SC2.

Gary


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## Ianab (May 22, 2007)

I'm not a pro tree cutter, but I commonly (50%) bore cut due to the trees being big, leaning and prone to barber chairing. I believe it's simply the safest way to cut them. Now on a 'normal' tree (reasonably straight and medium sized) a conventional notch, backcut and wedges is fine. No problem with bore cutting that sort of tree, it's just more work and complication for no real benefit.

It's just a matter of knowing several felling methods and when it's best to use them.

Cheers

Ian


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## SWE#Kipp (May 22, 2007)

I bore cut allot of tress, for the reasons, I can make the hinge with out any stress and make sure the face is directed to were I want the tree to fall, if not (mistakes happen) I can start over again, I get a second chance !!
I set the wedge, look around so there's no persons/animals near or in my work-zone, and then I let the tree fall when I feel ready 

I use other regular cuts as well but I really like the bore-cut-safe-corner method 

/Kristoffer


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## tawilson (May 22, 2007)

Occasional weekend warrior here. I cut mostly smaller trees for firewood and trail clearing. I like the bore cut for the ones where I don't have room for a wedge in the backcut. I also use it on leaners. I first started using it when cutting stumps off.


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## Boa07 (May 22, 2007)

State Forestry trained and qualified, professional feller, use bore cuts for heavy leaners, use split back cut with wedges for nearly everything else. The latter being the safest method I've been shown, seen and used to fell all kinds of trees.


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## alanarbor (May 22, 2007)

I fail to see how the bore cut is any less safe than a traditional back cut, other than cutting with the pushing chain. From an arborist's standpoint, it's nice to have the hinge and strap set, take a second to survey the scene, double check the all clear and then zip through the strap.

If I was falling in the woods, I would use it a lot less.


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## Ed*L (May 22, 2007)

I don't use a bore cut very often either. Most of my leaners end up leaning the wrong way, a bore cut isn't going to defy gravity. Easier to rig and pull it.

IIRC the basic instruction/safety video the Husky put out years ago showed all trees being bore cut.

Ed


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## turnkey4099 (May 22, 2007)

bound said:


> <snip> I don't get why some of y'all are so against bore cuts, though. It's one more useful technique, among many.



I really don't see many "against" it. I see many who are against using commonly. 

I agree with Clearance's OP. It is recommended way too often. I was just thinking about the subject yesterday wondering why all of a sudden bore cutting was seemingly the only way to fall a tree. His points about more time at the stump, more screwing around, etc. are correct.

I saw "being able to set up so everything is aimed properly" mentioned a couple times. Just how does bore cutting change anything? You still cut the notch (whatever type) first and that sets the whole process. 

It is one of serveral techniques and is valuable in its place but it is not a pacea. 

Harry K


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## GASoline71 (May 22, 2007)

turnkey4099 said:


> I really don't see many "against" it. I see many who are against using commonly.
> 
> I agree with Clearance's OP. It is recommended way too often. I was just thinking about the subject yesterday wondering why all of a sudden bore cutting was seemingly the only way to fall a tree. His points about more time at the stump, more screwing around, etc. are correct.
> 
> ...



Good post Harry... that is correct, not one of us has said that the bore cut is bad or shouldn't be done. I have used it myself on heavy head leaners. On trees that are leaning but not heavy head leaners, I will use a triangle and wedges. 

The bore cut is actually more technical than you guys tend to make it seem. The only reason I say it is not as "safe" is because of more time at the stump. But if you are cuttin' 12" to 18" trees, I guess it doesn't matter. To be honest with you guys... I don't know where you find the room in the stump to bore cut a 12" leaning tree.

Just for the record... bore cuttin' a 40" Doug Fir can be a real PITA.:biggrinbounce2: 

Gary


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## Cedarkerf (May 22, 2007)

I think its like smoke chase mentioned ways back its tends to be geographic. I also look at their 70 degree under cuts with wonderment. The bore cut is like having an 880 and cutting everything from your Christmas tree pruning your fruit trees to cutting big wood. It will do them all but a bunch of extra work but perfect for some work.


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## JimL (May 22, 2007)

why does it matter? If thats the way you cut a tree then fine, cut the damn thing.
I bore quite a few. Something with lots of value I will bore and make my hinge pretty small, cut strap and send it sailing. Depending on wood types, saves pulling splinters alot of times...


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## Ianab (May 22, 2007)

> I saw "being able to set up so everything is aimed properly" mentioned a couple times. Just how does bore cutting change anything? You still cut the notch (whatever type) first and that sets the whole process.



It's not so much the aiming, it's getting the hingewood formed properly. I agree the notch basically aims the tree, and that's cut the same ( and first) in any sensible method.

What the bore cut lets you do is form the hinge next, unstead of trying to get it right in the last second as the tree starts to move. You might rush, cut too much and sever the hinge. Or cut too slow and get fibre pull or barberchair. With a bore cut you can take your time, eyeball the saw and the notch properly and get things right. You even have time to look up occasionally, but as the tree isn't starting to move so it's less likely objects are going to drop out of the tops. 

Like I said, conventional tree - conventional backcut is fine. But when you get something different it may not be the best method.

Cheers

Ian


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## GASoline71 (May 22, 2007)

I give up... 

Gary


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## Cedarkerf (May 22, 2007)

GASoline71 said:


> I give up...
> 
> Gary


Its an everywhere but PNW thing well never understan.:deadhorse:


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## beowulf343 (May 22, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> As an Arborist the large butts that I fall are usually topped out anyway, and always have a pull line as close to the top as possible. I am in agreement with your WTF? stance on bore cutting. I just don't get it...........



+1


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## lxt (May 22, 2007)

I helped a logging crew during a period I was layedoff, the reason they bore cut was to eliminate checking, I really didnt see the point untill I used the traditional notch and drop method.

The hinge tears the centers now your thinkin no big deal, I didnt think it was either, but get paid for the board feet of lumber and every inch counts.

now whether this is a common practice or just some loggers wantin to show the line clearance guys they can do something different, I dont know.

but they were a fun bunch, & I did learn the bore cut so I gained knowledge about somethin.

LXT..........................


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## ShoerFast (May 22, 2007)

clearance said:


> Are people just using it to be "cool", basically, WTF? And please state your experience, weekend warrior/firewood getter, arborist, faller, etc, thank you.




WTF (weekend tree feller) here again but ,just starting out, running tally, it seems that there are more pros then cons? More reasons then just simply calling it a fad, what am I missing?


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## clearance (May 22, 2007)

tawilson said:


> Occasional weekend warrior here. I cut mostly smaller trees for firewood and trail clearing. I like the bore cut for the ones where I don't have room for a wedge in the backcut. I also use it on leaners. I first started using it when cutting stumps off.



This bore cut phenomenom is definetly a regional thing. The bore cut method is extolled as safer, but there are a couple of things to consider, first, you spend more time at the stump looking at your cuts, more time and opportunity for a widowmaker to get you. Second, there is a possiblity you could cut off too much or not enough holding wood, this applies to any backcut, but moreso here I believe. Also, it requires more skill to place the cut if you have to two side it. You can't just walk the saw around. Now TWilson brings up something I hear here quite often, "no room for a wedge", there is always room for a wedge, simple, make your backcut first and stick in a wedge, then make the undercut, be carefull to leave enough holding wood. I do this all the time, it is approved here. As far as loggers bore cutting, yes they do, but not like we are talking about.


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## grizzly2 (May 23, 2007)

Just my two cents, but, I definitely use the bore cut method. Not even close to all the time, but often enough. I've been an arborist for 12 years now, and have found it to be a great technique when control is the name of the game. Whether this is because of the extra time it takes (allowing me to methodically fell the tree/spar) or because of the ability to set up a good hinge, make sure the load is on the tagline at the right time (someone pulling or mechanical advantage), add wedges at the last minute, whatever before cutting the holding strap. I agree with those that think it's overused. I also see the trend of the region thing. That's it, I think it has a place, but not everywhere. Some people just like to be cool, and use newer techniques (makes them feel cutting edge - pun intended)


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## KMB (May 23, 2007)

clearance, GASonline71, rbtree,

A few questions from a tree falling rookie (to date have only fallen 2 trees properly and safely by myself, 1 tree with coaching from an experienced friend, and 1 a few years ago that went down okay - but I now know was not done quite properly). Most all of the wood I cut is already down. Not trying to be a smartarse...just learning. When y'all say 'triangle', is that what is also called an 'open-faced' face cut? And you use this for leaners, falling with the natural lean of the tree?

From what I've read here (and other places), bore cutting a leaner is to prevent barber chairs? Again, not to be a smartarse, so a triangle (open-face?) face cut and regular back-cut (with wedges) on a leaner will prevent a barber chair? Just wanting to learn.

Kevin


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## Burvol (May 23, 2007)

I would have to say "leaners" are the only reason I have used a "strap" cut as it is called here, to save some wood from pulling off the stump, and that is all.


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## booboo (May 23, 2007)

20 years as an arborist, alternating between full-time and part-time (part time at present). 

I use bore cuts, but not all that often. Why make more cuts than necessary? It takes longer and gives you more chance to screw up. However, I bore cut heavy front leaners of species that have a tendency to barberchair, like poplar, and also like it a lot combined with wedges on smaller diameter back leaners where I'm falling against the lean, without a rope. I've never bore cut a tree that has had a rope in it, no need to. We pull it or if needed, add a come-along or a winch. If it's got too much weight to do that safely, then it's chunked down. But I'd also rather not climb a tree if it's not necessary so I'll always look for a way to fall it from the ground first.

My theory on falling is, whatever is the safest method is the best. Coming in a close second is speed. Who cares about "looking cool"? I won't bore cut if I don't have to, but used in the right place, it's an excellent tool to have available. 

And yes, I'm in the northeast and was first exposed to bore cutting in college, taught by instructors who had been taught by the Swedes. So I agree that it's a regional thing.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 23, 2007)

booboo said:


> I've never bore cut a tree that has had a rope in it, no need to.



The reason I will bore a tree/spar with a rope in it is I will set it up for the pull and then call the ground people over for the pull, weather hand or wich, when the strap is ready to be cut.

Yes, some people over use any new method, as they learn it and get comfortable. I know guys who rig nearly everything. After a while they will come around to realizing the old tried and true also has a place.



> now whether this is a common practice or just some loggers wantin to show the line clearance guys they can do something different, I dont know.



If they had a venner quality log, they were required to do it.

I have a buddy who was on a helo logging crew for a few season. They would fly out to an oak/walnut forest and he would top out the trees in the best manner to not damage anything near by. He had to bore the face with a maximum of 2 in of hinge on each side of the log.

He was paid $40 a tree and could average 8 a day



> When y'all say 'triangle', is that what is also called an 'open-faced' face cut?



I think they are talking about a triabgular hinge that is fatter on one side helping to stear the fall.



> But if you are cuttin' 12" to 18" trees, I guess it doesn't matter. To be honest with you guys... I don't know where you find the room in the stump to bore cut a 12" leaning tree.



There is a method, but many of you would laugh . It involves boaring under the face, perpendicular to the apex of the scarf to create a curf to place a wedge in the back of the stem. I've seen a guy jack a tree over feathering wedges with the method.


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## Mitchell (May 23, 2007)

*boring the back cut*

This post makes me consider trying boring more actually...

If no other reason then [as it has been pointed out here] it allows for a more stable tree right up untill the final few fibers are cut when pulling over with a rope. This is an advantage I would think when falling trees residentially. 
Safety wise; As far as time at the stump; the time required to bore cut [a two foot fur for example] would be under a minute [45'?] as opposed to a straight back cut. 
Admitingly I rarely used to bore anything. 

I am a three year residential arborist with 13 years in the bush falling. In the interest of speed, I personally never used to bore anything but really big bdh leaners. I would stay at the stump and cut the tree off as it went. That was untill I was thrown a good thirty feet from a lifting root wad! I bored most leaners after that. [Im not as cavalier as that makes me sound as that was standard practice; in small non union shows you were gone by lunch if you couldn't keep ahead of the yarding.] 

Anyways I will try a few out and see what I think...
SCott


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## booboo (May 23, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> There is a method, but many of you would laugh . It involves boaring under the face, perpendicular to the apex of the scarf to create a curf to place a wedge in the back of the stem. I've seen a guy jack a tree over feathering wedges with the method.



That's what I'm talking about with the back leaners. You can take a smaller diameter tree with a pretty substantial back lean and jack it over in the opposite direction to the lean using a bore perpendicular to the face cut, through the center of the hinge, and a wedge in the kerf on the backside. It's saved me quite a bit of climbing just for the sake of putting a tag line in. Not something I'd want to use next to a house but along the edge of the woods where the goal is to not smash up decent trees that are being left, it works great.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 23, 2007)

booboo said:


> Not something I'd want to use next to a house but along the edge of the woods where the goal is to not smash up decent trees that are being left, it works great.



If you bore in just below the scarf apex then you have a full hinge and you can use the back cut to easily double the wedges without feathering. the chunk of wood between acts as a shim or bearing.


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## booboo (May 23, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> If you bore in just below the scarf apex then you have a full hinge and you can use the back cut to easily double the wedges without feathering. the chunk of wood between acts as a shim or bearing.



I've seen that done but never tried it, makes sense though. I have stacked wedges in the kerf on the backside though, after boring through the hinge perpendicular to the face. The only places I've done that is for stuff like lot clearing, driveways, etc... where it's more a matter of convenience rather than critical imprtance where exactly the tree ends up. That's starting to get sketchy at that point though, if the tree's got that much of a back lean, I'll put a rope in it rtaher than take a chance.


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## Tree Dr. (May 23, 2007)

*triangle back cut*

Triangle back cut is not used to steer the fall(tapered hinge)It is to reduce the possibility of barber chair.Backcut is made at angle from either side then the middle is cut last.


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## tawilson (May 23, 2007)

clearance said:


> This bore cut phenomenom is definetly a regional thing. The bore cut method is extolled as safer, but there are a couple of things to consider, first, you spend more time at the stump looking at your cuts, more time and opportunity for a widowmaker to get you. Second, there is a possiblity you could cut off too much or not enough holding wood, this applies to any backcut, but moreso here I believe. Also, it requires more skill to place the cut if you have to two side it. You can't just walk the saw around. Now TWilson brings up something I hear here quite often, "no room for a wedge", there is always room for a wedge, simple, make your backcut first and stick in a wedge, then make the undercut, be carefull to leave enough holding wood. I do this all the time, it is approved here. As far as loggers bore cutting, yes they do, but not like we are talking about.



Sorry. I think you suggested this method to me before. I'll give it a whirl next time. I took down a 12" dead oak in my campground last weekend. I used the bore cut, putting in a couple wedges before cutting the strap, and it went where I wanted.


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## GASoline71 (May 23, 2007)

Tree Dr. said:


> Triangle back cut is not used to steer the fall(tapered hinge)It is to reduce the possibility of barber chair.Backcut is made at angle from either side then the middle is cut last.



Good explaination... in theory it works the same way a Coos Bay cut does... but you don't remove as much wood in the back two angled cuts.

Gary


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## murphy4trees (May 24, 2007)

I love the bore cut but use it only a very small percentage of the time... The main reason loggers adopted this and use it faithfully is because of the average increase of 5 seconds in escape time.... Now that might not mean much falling a spar in some backyard, but in the woods 5 seconds is huge!!

I fall trees almost every workday for 25+ years, and often need to be exremely precise in direction and judgment of length etc... I rarely get paid for wood, and almost never have to worry about throw back or hangers etc.. that is objects falling from the sky.... 

I only fall hard front leaners from time to time and will bore or use the cos bay... never tried the triangle...

I really like the bore when there is bad wood involved or occasionally when I don't trust the driver to pull slowly, or when I want to be away from the tree when it goes... I almost always pull with a rope and rarely use wedges... Every once in a long while I like to bore and set the hinge perfectly for added precision, but almsot always can pinpoint the drop with a standard backcut, looking down the handle or gunning line...

I think it is good to practice the bore cut/back release for when you need it, but wouldn;t agree with those who say it should be used in all suburban falls... It is a great trick to have in your repretoire and if you haven;t tried it, I highly recommend learning... It come in so handy when needed..

IE... a few weeks back I was dropping a white ash across a driveway.... HEAVY front leaner with a wierd flare and next to some other smaller trees that intefered with bringing the saw in straight from the back...In order to avoid hinging through the flare I used a very shallow notch... maybe 4-5" on a 30"+ cut, bored in behind it to set the hinge & make sure the tree fell on the log that was set across the drive to protect the blacktop... then I was able to trigger the back release by cutting from both sides of the intefering trees and finished on the side that left me an easy escape...

The cool thing about the bore/back realease is that the tree starts to move when the back release goes, then hesitates as the fibers of the back release pull out or the fibers of the hinge offer resistance ( not sure why it stops for a couple seconds)... Now if I was a logger, where escape can mean life or death on a regular basis that hesitation and the saw being easir to pull out of the back release would make me feel really really good.... 

I think suburban arborists can learn a lot from loggers, but we must understand the differences in the work. We can adopt techniques and use then when they make sense, yet it would be impractical to blindly follow their lead in this and many other techniques....


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## joesawer (May 24, 2007)

I rarely use a bore cut with a strap to trip the tree, only on very heavy forward leaners.
What good does it do to set wedges in a bore cut? The tree cannot possibly move forward until the back strap is cut or broken, all the wedges can do is compress the wood fiber. 
With a back leaner I would rather cut in far enough to set a wedge, then cut up the hinge as far as I am comfortable while watching the top for movement, then advance the wedge or pull to move the top. When the tree is pretty much straight, fine the hinge up, then tip the tree over.
With a bore and trip cut the tree does not move until the strap is cut, then it is to late to change anything. You are completely committed to the hinge you made before the strap was cut.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 24, 2007)

i assume we are talking about a bore plunge through the face to take out center of hinge; and not a bore behind hinge to leave a safety release at back of the tree. Some of the responses seem to 'lean' towards the latter though.

i think if the hinge is placed so the compressed portion of the hinge(pivot) is in same place, on same tree; the tension hold parts of hinge all have the same strength. Because the hinge is just a reflection of the pulls(and pushes of wedge) on it(therefore we can 'fake' a hinge out to be stronger by placing extra pull(rope) or push(wedge) on the hinge). But, also the outer extremes of the hinge have most of the control against side to side movement. So, a bore cut would reapportion center fibers to the sides; so have more side to side control.

Sorenson showed a plunge through center face to eliminate the center wood(sometimes 'heartwood' or dead etc.) for having less splintering up inside of the fat / mo$t valuable end of a spar. Theory was this can be stiffer wood and to place the load on the more flexible outside fibers. i think in pines (and some stiffer 'junk' varieties/ or dead center trees) around here; i've seen where that can be applicable; for more predictable lay.

It is also recommended for heavy head leaner. i think a tapered hinge does steer against side pulls; and even keeps a horizontal limb sweeping across on a horizontal path longer (fat end up, setting it up for down as the 'side lean' against the desired horizontal path). 

There is also the what if the saw doesn't reach across scenario. One reason i've been thankful i've used it; is to gain more understanding, experience and confidance that paid off well for dealing with trees that were mostly rotted out in the center. These had far more material removed than you'd do yourself; but i was better prepared to deal with them, from the experiences of removing that material myself.


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## KMB (May 24, 2007)

Tree Dr. said:


> Triangle back cut is not used to steer the fall(tapered hinge)It is to reduce the possibility of barber chair.Backcut is made at angle from either side then the middle is cut last.



Thanks for the explanation. Is there a web link (or maybe someone has a picture) of where I can see what the triangle back cut looks like?

Kevin


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## SWE#Kipp (May 24, 2007)

When i'm in the woods cutting I have to limb the trees as well and it's their I can save time, the falling is there fore important for me to get right thats why I like bore cut "GOL" method, I don't care if it takes 10-20 sec longer to fell the tree as long as it's lay is were I want it to be !
with this method I get a second chance to make a new face and hinge if I discovered that I screwed up the first time (it has happened to me a couple of times at least) to me thats a good and safe thing ,,,,,
with small trees that I can cut and push with my shoulder I just throttle away with a regular back cut which is faster for me than the bore cut, but I don't think it's as safe as bore cut ,,,,, 
this might not make sense to you, but if thats the case I blame it on the English language ,,,, can't all you learn Swedish instead


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## yooper (May 24, 2007)

lxt said:


> I helped a logging crew during a period I was layedoff, the reason they bore cut was to eliminate checking, I really didnt see the point untill I used the traditional notch and drop method.
> 
> The hinge tears the centers now your thinkin no big deal, I didnt think it was either, but get paid for the board feet of lumber and every inch counts.
> 
> ...



Your exactly right there, bore/strap cut is best for log timber to reduce fiber pull while tree is falling. After cutting ...say 50 two foot at the stump log trees in a day the fiber ripeage you save the land owner may be in the hundreds of dollars depending on the species of trees being cut.


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## pbtree (May 25, 2007)

BC_Logger said:


> Gasoline , Clearance I agree with you both 100 % the use of the bore cut is limited and if not done properly can lead to some serious issues , in my opinion people should stop thinking on how technical they look and just fall the dam tree the old way



What he said...


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## turnkey4099 (May 25, 2007)

yooper said:


> Your exactly right there, bore/strap cut is best for log timber to reduce fiber pull while tree is falling. After cutting ...say 50 two foot at the stump log trees in a day the fiber ripeage you save the land owner may be in the hundreds of dollars depending on the species of trees being cut.



Yes but... Again, it is another tool that should be in everyone's kit and just like other tools, it should be used when appropriate. In my case, I am making firewood and having a foot or so of the butt with fiber pull or splits is not important to me. 

To get back to the point of the OP. I have been working a salvage operation on a burn for about 5 years now. Willow ranging from 20" up to near 4'. All lean, some pretty bad, all have detiorated wood near the butt to the point that some will fall as soon as the back cut is started. There is no way I will try a bore cut on such dangerous trees. Chain above the cut, undercut if the lean isn't too vicious and standard back cut. So it tries to barber chair - it isn't going any further than tightening the chain (1/2" log chain).

At times I was beginning to think it was getting so bad I expected the following: "My chain is cutting crooked" "bore cut it".

Harry K


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## John Ellison (May 25, 2007)

One of the times I think a bore cut and release is superior to any other method is in a blow down where you cant work it from the top down. Like where a tree lays over and the root wad of another tree holds it up in the air. You have to make the first cuts near the roots. Tree is at 45%.
How else can you do it? If your strip has a lot of blow down you are using it a lot. Oh oh, this is the C T C and Climbing forum.
I am not going to use it when pulling or wedging over a back leaner. Would much rather ease it over and see how it is reacting.
Pretty much only use it for barber chair avoidance or for when my saw/bar is just too small.:jester:


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## treevet (May 25, 2007)

Was taking a 2 ft dia lead, about 50 ft long, about 60 foot in the air that had the lean and tip weight and straight grain (ash) that would add up to a barber chair. An inexperienced climber might have tied in to the available crotch right above the cut and felt he could just blow it into the open area from there. I tied above and behind so I could escape and put in a small notch and slowly back cut to see if what I thought would happen would. It barber chaired and the slab went out behind, and over the cut and when it finally folded, I saw from a safe spot , the butt of the slab come down and land right where I was standing and I would have been stuck if low tied and would have squashed me like stepping a grape. Lesson learned. Bore cut has a place in the air too.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 26, 2007)

Quite a story!


Tapered Hinge is used for steering sidelean to center gun IMLHO. Dent writes about it in his felling bible: "Proffessional Timber Falling-a Procedural Approach".

i've even taken the model up in the air and turned it sideways to usher a horizontal branch; on a more horizontal path to clear an obstachle below. Just place fat end up to pull away from the 'side lean' (down) and allow to steer on the chosen path (across).

Please excuse the tattered edges; as this is years old now; and has been handed around a lot:


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## turnkey4099 (May 26, 2007)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Quite a story!
> 
> 
> Tapered Hinge is used for steering sidelean to center gun IMLHO. Dent writes about it in his felling bible: "Proffessional Timber Falling-a Procedural Approach".
> ...



Excellent. I have never seen it illustrated before. I have used it in the past, mostly successfully but now I understand the force vectors. I was just eyeballing a tree the other day wondering if I would be able to steer it far enough to miss another tree. I am far from being a professional so I don't try falling trees where there may be subesquent damage to something.

Harry K


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## PUclimber (May 26, 2007)

I use the bore cut quite a bit and have practiced with it on trees that really didn't need any special cutting just in order to get it down and get it into my arsenal. It is kind of nice to use the bore cut for using a snap cut. Where as you set up the notch bore cut and then make a back cut above the bore cut and then you can clear the area and all it takes is a little tug to take it down. As well as this being a safer method you reduce the amount of holding wood before you cut the strapp and this will lessen the barber chair effect.


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## jrparbor04 (May 26, 2007)

here is my two cents,,,i am an I.S.A Certified Arborist,,,have done just about anything that has to do with trees. climbing,,,felling(not falling), bucket and etc. i have also been Arbormaster trained in the area of Precision felling,,,
they have taught me to use the bore cut method,,,both the face bore and side bore,,,i for one,,,believe it is a safer method to felling a tree around others,,,on the traditional cut,once you have started to make your back cut you are commited to cutting that tree,,,if others(the public)are present the bore cut presents a safe time after cutting your notch and the bore,,,keeping the back strap in for safety to relook at the surroundings,,making sure all are safe before committing to felling the tree,,,i have used both methods all day and everyday,,,as we all know,,,each tree is different and presents different situations in felling a tree the professional and safe way


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## smokechase II (May 26, 2007)

*Commitment:*

I would suggest that the work area be secured and a felling method selected with some confidence of success prior to any felling cuts being made.

What are you going to do if the public walks in just as you cut your backstrap?

The area is secured or it isn't.

****************************

A similar argument could be made for either cutting method where wedges are necessary to counter a lean.

The tree is going to stay in place until it is talked over with a wedge(s). A reason why this is safer than cutting the strap is no saw is running. Noises like the popping of the wood, the laughter of children playing under the intended lay and the quicker escape available without the saw etc.

When I hear a blank check "this is the safer method" assertion I laugh and I think "how foolish".

There is absolutely no way that open face cutting can be the preferred cutting method in any sort of hazard tree felling.

Death from above. Must look up. 
The cutter cannot be obsessed with a cutting technique that requires more concentration at the cut or being bent over and presenting greater exposure.

Why you'd think open faced cutting was developed in an area where there were almost exclusively second growth forests and few hazard trees.


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## jrparbor04 (May 26, 2007)

well,,,obviously,,,with the bore cut method,,,you tree feller has the chance to look at the current surroundings and look out for the public,,,if the public is present at anytime of the felling process,,,proper safety measure should already been in place,,,if you are a professional,,,so,,,better chance with the public being safe in the bore cut method than the traditional method,,,as of always,,,,safety is number one


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## clearance (May 26, 2007)

jrparbor04 said:


> well,,,obviously,,,with the bore cut method,,,you tree feller has the chance to look at the current surroundings and look out for the public,,,if the public is present at anytime of the felling process,,,proper safety measure should already been in place,,,if you are a professional,,,so,,,better chance with the public being safe in the bore cut method than the traditional method,,,as of always,,,,safety is number one



If you are falling around the public, you will have signs, cones etc. and groundsmen to keep people back. Thats is for thier safety, the cuts you make are for your safety, you have to pay total attention to what you are doing and have all concern for yourself, you are the only one. So, I am #1 when falling, thats the way it has to be. If you are looking around for idiots, you are not paying total attention to what you are doing, on top of making cuts which are more time consuming and difficult exposing you to more danger than if you were doing it "the old fashoined way". Look up, not around.


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## smokechase II (May 27, 2007)

*distracted faller is not safe*

jrparbor04:

Clearance is right.
Falling is a serious job that requires concentration.

Any person in a business that requires skill and abilities can attest to how injury and fatality rates will go up with multi-tasking.

The faller cuts. The Groundies secure the work zone.


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## BC_Logger (May 27, 2007)

again I agree with clearance 100 % the less time you spend at the stump = less the danger the faces 

tradional cut and the bore cut has its places but its up to the faller experience and skill to decide on which method


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## soutz (May 27, 2007)

all cuts are tools. you bring them out as the need arises.practise when you can. cuts should be as simple as you can make them keeping accuracy and safety in mind.none are better than others, they are tools for certain situations.experience with which tool to use is the key then being able to make the cut is the next step.


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## Highclimber OR (May 27, 2007)

Pro Arborist. Its a Fad. Bore-cut almost never and most the time I see it used is totally unnecessary. If a bore-cut is your primary cut go back to felling 101. Hang a line if you are worried.


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## joesawer (May 27, 2007)

Dents illustration is another small issue I have with the book. The hinge should not be cut off on the compression side of a side leaner. This allows the tree to set down on the kerf and move even more to the side. There should always be enough hinge left under the lean to hold the weight of the tree up. The side is often cut after the tree moves ahead and the weight is no longer on the hinge (something that can't be done with a bore cut).
The bore cut definitely has a place aloft in the canopy where heavy leaners are the norm. I like it much better than the "sacrificial saw" method that was advocated by someone here a while back. Proper felling technique is very critical when working aloft and your escape is very limited.
A bore and trip cut is needed when for some reason the back cut cannot be completed into a good hinge before the tree falls. For me this is because the tree is a heavy front leaner and the saw will not cut fast enough to keep up with the fall. If for some reason you cannot cut a good hinge, (lack of experience, capability, dull saw) you cannot make a good hinge then the bore and trip method would be safer.
A safe work zone is essential before any felling cuts are made. I was contracted to a company last summer who was reducing fuel loads for the FS. My job was falling all the dead trees over 10". The area was next to a horse stable and surrounded by houses. There was a lot of public usage from horses and hikers. I told them that they had to secure the area for me to fall trees in, they told my they handled it. A few hours later I had a near miss with a couple on horse back so I told them I was going home. The next day their safety officer met with me and was very upset that I had left early. He seemed to think that I should be able to fall and watch for the public. I told him that I would cut the trees but he had to stay and make sure that no one wandered into my work area. He agreed, but after two trees he stopped me and told me there was no way he could possibly secure the area as I cut trees. Now how am I supposed to make sure no one comes into the area as I am falling a tree if he can't when he has nothing else to do. They MUST be stopped before they come into the area. The area MUST BE SECURE. And the faller should not be the one who is responsible for this as his attention should be on his own immediate safety.


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## John Ellison (May 27, 2007)

joesawer said:


> A bore and trip cut is needed when for some reason the back cut cannot be completed into a good hinge before the tree falls. For me this is because the tree is a heavy front leaner and the saw will not cut fast enough to keep up with the fall. If for some reason you cannot cut a good hinge, (lack of experience, capability, dull saw) you cannot make a good hinge then the bore and trip method would be safer.
> .



I think you hit the nail on the head joesawer. As a single training method that would be safest for all types of people with varied experience, from pencil pusher to logger, it possibly is the best way. I have never heard anyone that has taken the training say if it is taught as being the only way or not. That is what I would take exception to. So many times in so many situations it is just fluff. But I am sure in the large and valuable hardwoods it is very useful.

I don't know about any one else, but I will be a faller instead of a "feller". It might not be the correct way but the guys I know who are real fallers will walk thru fell and bucked timber, will talk about trees that they fell in the past and generally use it for a past tense, but they are timber fallers who go out and fall timber.


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## smokechase II (May 27, 2007)

*documentation*

Joesawyer:

I'm not sure how your contract is set up and being administered, but you should be taking notes with times etc.

Signage before two people on the trail would seem to be a minimum.

Unleashed dogs are especially bad.


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## treevet (May 28, 2007)

Not referring to the last post, but in general.....this has become the boring rage/fad!


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## matty f (May 28, 2007)

I probably only used it a handfull of times on heavy leaners to advoid barbers chairs and it worked on all but one occasion a few years ago when i felled probably one of the biggest populars ive felled and it had a horribal side lean evan with a bore cut and the top stripped out as i was coming to the back of the cut the tree reverse barbers chaired but im quite convinced it would of been evan worse the other way and it was probably my fault for not stopping the first back cut sooner......if i used chains it probably would of ripped down to the stump wich i have experienced when using standard cuts on trees i feel would of been advoided using the bore cut.
Last time i used it was felling a largish dead beach with a 14 inch bar on the 357 when i forgot the felling saw.
it enabled me to get all around and bore the middle outbefore finishing the back cut wich saved the day and the tree went down spot on.
dutchmans my favourite felling cut at the moment got me out quite a few sticky situations lately!


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## joesawer (May 29, 2007)

I have fell a lot of large and valuable hardwoods back east and in Central America, and did not need to bore very often on those trees. Most large and valuable hard woods are not heavy leaners. Usually there are much faster and more efficient ways to prevent fiber pull, and it is not with a 45 to 70 degree face cut either.


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## Ax-man (May 29, 2007)

The fad will die out when bore cutting starts to hit the sawyer in the pocketbook by wearing out the bearings in the roller nose on a bar quicker.

Larry


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 30, 2007)

joesawer said:


> Dents illustration is another small issue I have with the book. The hinge should not be cut off on the compression side of a side leaner. This allows the tree to set down on the kerf and move even more to the side.



i think it is very tough to make global statemeants with so many variables. The lead variable is the initiating force of the Center of Gravity and it's length/angle from the compressed part of the hinge. Pictured is an extreme case of extreme sidelean.

i think that the tension area would be forced very strong, then the lean/compressed side would close; changing the pivot position from the end of the hinge to the closed position. Changing the pivot position is one of the greatest adjustmeants you can make IMLHO. Because it takes length/angle from one side and gives it to the other; thus adjusting both the load length/angle and the support length/angle at the same time. For this to work the tree weight would have to be enough to force the close. If it was not, then we'd just have a shorter leverage across the hinge.

This isn't everyday stuff; at least felling, but i really like it in the air on horizontal branches to be moved across/horizontally; where like the picture the Natural falling direction is about perpendicular to the target direction.

My site is messed up; but i do have most of this animation page rebuilt.


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## joesawer (May 31, 2007)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> i think it is very tough to make global statemeants with so many variables. The lead variable is the initiating force of the Center of Gravity and it's length/angle from the compressed part of the hinge. Pictured is an extreme case of extreme sidelean.
> 
> i think that the tension area would be forced very strong, then the lean/compressed side would close; changing the pivot position from the end of the hinge to the closed position. Changing the pivot position is one of the greatest adjustmeants you can make IMLHO. Because it takes length/angle from one side and gives it to the other; thus adjusting both the load length/angle and the support length/angle at the same time. For this to work the tree weight would have to be enough to force the close. If it was not, then we'd just have a shorter leverage across the hinge.
> 
> ...


On younger, smaller, lighter, less brittle trees or tops they can be cut so that they start moving towards the lean then swung to the side, but Dent's book is referring to felling mature west coast trees and nothing else is implied. To cut the compression side of the hinge on these trees almost always will move the top farther into the lean, making it more difficult to get into the lay. 
These are not cuts for the beginner, but this is supposed to be a professional forum. Please remember that swinging trees is an every day thing when felling timber in the forest in order to make harvesting the logs easier and to prevent breakage and damage to standing timber, but under no circumstances do I recommend it when property, life or limb are at stake. It is simply to inconsistent.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 31, 2007)

Ax-man said:


> The fad will die out when bore cutting starts to hit the sawyer in the pocketbook by wearing out the bearings in the roller nose on a bar quicker.
> 
> Larry



Come on, arborists bend bars before they wear them out 

I'm always getting pinched trying to get the perfect swing on a partaly severed hinge.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 31, 2007)

Joe Sawer, et al-
This "Rock around the Clock" roping technique shows similar; you kinda fake left to go right. Instead of loading wood fiber by going the opposite direction, you load rope fiber with more tension; from the same quadrant of pull as tapered hinge. Moving directly away from the rope fiber pull, loads it the most. Then, the distance between compressed part of hinge, and the 1st hitchpoint on load becomes a lever to help tighten the rope even tighter. This then forces the limb around more powerfully; thus creating a more powerful support hinge. Walking the line like this can place more support rope pull and more hinge support too, on the same limb. Hinge tension fiber is just like support rope fiber, only closer and tighter; just as a dutchman is just a closer version of an obstacle in path of tree that pushes back/over on tree. 

In theory, both sides of the hinge pull across center(amount of pull adjusted by cross axis pull; so side opposite lean pulls harder); so eliminating the fiber on lean side; doesn't allow the pull towards lean. Just as, both sides of close push towards center gun; but closing lean side first gets it to push as the opposite side is still pulling. The spread forces in opposite directions would give more of a tourqued than linear force on hinge as all things i think. Tapered hinge places more fiber on cross axis to pull sidelean towards center; and places it farther back; but also at a better angle/more inline with CG and pivot (compressed part of hinge). Falling not straight into lean by use of tapered, gives practice, direction and- softer fall; as it doesn't feed into gravity's most direct pull; also tends to hit ground at a more across/glancing angle, than a straight drop i think.


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