# wage vs experience



## Wenthome

Hello, I'm new here and need some help. I read a while back on this site that experienced climbers make between 25 and 40 dollars an hour, the company that trained me wont pay me 20an hour to come back in march, after 3years with them. The last year using my own gear(rope, saddle, buck strap and hand saw).

When I decided to get into climbing I was working with a climber who said he made between 400 and 1000 a day, and that there weren't many climbers out there.

If I cant find a company to pay 20+ to start then Ill have some 1year old equipment for sale.

So are climbers paid well? or are we a dime a dozen?


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## TreeClimber57

Wenthome said:


> Hello, I'm new here and need some help. I read a while back on this site that experienced climbers make between 25 and 40 dollars an hour, the company that trained me wont pay me 20an hour to come back in march, after 3years with them. The last year using my own gear(rope, saddle, buck strap and hand saw).
> 
> When I decided to get into climbing I was working with a climber who said he made between 400 and 1000 a day, and that there weren't many climbers out there.
> 
> If I cant find a company to pay 20+ to start then Ill have some 1year old equipment for sale.
> 
> So are climbers paid well? or are we a dime a dozen?



Well depends on where you are maybe. But with this economy.. I am not sure who is going to pay $40/hr.. but could be wrong I guess.. but I sure am not going to pay that high. 

Also depends on how good you are.. 

But he has to be doing something pretty special to get $1,000 a day.


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## Shaun Bowler

Wage vs. experience
Experience is a subjective word.
So is being able to come to work on time, work, and being able to do it day after day.
Sometimes I make $3-400.00 a day, once in awhile $1000.00.
Nevertheless, I have always been greatful to have a job.
The experience that I find most helpful is to learn if you are being taken advantage of.
Using your own chainsaws is a big red flag.


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## TreeClimber57

Shaun Bowler said:


> Wage vs. experience
> Experience is a subjective word.
> So is being able to come to work on time, work, and being able to do it day after day.
> Sometimes I make $3-400.00 a day, once in awhile $1000.00.
> Nevertheless, I have always been greatful to have a job.
> The experience that I find most helpful is to learn if you are being taken advantage of.
> Using your own chainsaws is a big red flag.


 
Well said..

Experience.. what is that 
Years worked.. ? Well I have seen guys with 5 years under their belt do as good or better than some with 20. It is the person, their desire to learn, exposure or opportunity they have had, etc.
Showing up to work on time.. big item.. I have had some climbers that did not show until half way through the day.. some not at all certain days. And.. sometimes not bother to tell you.. so you got a job waiting.. trucks running.. and missing climber. 
Climbers (or any worker) need to remember that the person hiring them is paying workers comp, insurance, fuel, taxes, maintenance, their salary, etc.. all before they take home a dime themselves. I have had days my climbers made way more than I have taken myself.


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## Wenthome

My attendance is almost perfect, and I always did the maintanace to the trucks before I drove, and loaded needed equipment. I was 1 of 3 climbers the first year then for the following 2 years it was just me and the foreman, except for 2 climbers that didnt last 3 months combined. one of them being screwed up and crashing a truck the other walked off.

Im told I was trained to climb old school. Ive climbed big trees with and without spikes, Ive done storm damage, removals, trimming, installing cable(s) and done some work around big wires. and also can do shaping, shrubs, crabs etc. and trimming for fruit. I also have a spray licsense. 

I watched the barber chair video then the monster white pine removal in that same link, and can point out a few things that guy was doing wrong. Like leaving all those stubs and not under cutting any of the branches so they land flat, or pulling himself up the tree when hes wearing spikes. and why didnt they show the best part, taking the tops out? Plus his notch looked alittle short.

The only reason I used my own gear was because the saddle didnt fit me and the climbing lines looked pretty old. I never used my own saws.


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## ducaticorse

Wenthome said:


> My attendance is almost perfect, and I always did the maintanace to the trucks before I drove, and loaded needed equipment. I was 1 of 3 climbers the first year then for the following 2 years it was just me and the foreman, except for 2 climbers that didnt last 3 months combined. one of them being screwed up and crashing a truck the other walked off.
> 
> Im told I was trained to climb old school. Ive climbed big trees with and without spikes, Ive done storm damage, removals, trimming, installing cable(s) and done some work around big wires. and also can do shaping, shrubs, crabs etc. and trimming for fruit. I also have a spray licsense.
> 
> I watched the barber chair video then the monster white pine removal in that same link, and can point out a few things that guy was doing wrong. Like leaving all those stubs and not under cutting any of the branches so they land flat, or pulling himself up the tree when hes wearing spikes. and why didnt they show the best part, taking the tops out? Plus his notch looked alittle short.
> 
> The only reason I used my own gear was because the saddle didnt fit me and the climbing lines looked pretty old. I never used my own saws.


 
I'm a small and new company. I'd pay $40 an hour for a producer, and a leader that I could count on. Someone who could climb well, and control the entire site op to boot. I pay $30 an hour now for a climber that ends up aggravating me more than not. Around here, you can't get anything worth working with for less than $25, So what's another $15 for an individual who I can set up on a job site, and can trust to get everything done in the time allotted?

It's also relative to location as TC57 mentioned. 

I don't know how anyone would ever fetch a grand a day, seems a bit ridiculous to me.


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## Shaun Bowler

WTF?
TCS7 is secret.. code.. for ..what?
I think AS is being used as a conduit


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## ducaticorse

Shaun Bowler said:


> WTF?
> TCS7 is secret.. code.. for ..what?
> I think AS is being used as a conduit


 
TreeClimber57, he posted on the topic earlier.


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## TreeClimber57

ducaticorse said:


> I'm a small and new company. I'd pay $40 an hour for a producer, and a leader that I could count on. Someone who could climb well, and control the entire site op to boot. I pay $30 an hour now for a climber that ends up aggravating me more than not. Around here, you can't get anything worth working with for less than $25, So what's another $15 for an individual who I can set up on a job site, and can trust to get everything done in the time allotted?.



Well I would do $25 to $30 if I gotta babysit or have somebody else do it.
Any more and the guy has to have license he can drive anything and everything, have a good enough record so I can insure him without my rates going crazy, is always on time getting to work and works a decent day and be dependable so the work gets completed as per contract with customer, on time, and no complaints from customer that I need to fix later.



ducaticorse said:


> I don't know how anyone would ever fetch a grand a day, seems a bit ridiculous to me.


 
I would think so.. unless he has supernatural powers and a magic wand. Now if somebody is doing storm cleanup, and wants to gouge a bit on the way.. then maybe.

Am I asking too much or dreaming


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## mpatch

to the guys paying $40+ an hour I will raise the BS flag. There is no way you can pay a production climber that much as a FULL TIME EMPLOYEE with some bennies and remain profitable unless you are talking about part time/ contract climbers. When I was an independant climber I would make between $250 and $1k a day, but keep in mind the hardest part is keeping busy. Anybody that has been a independant climber (I'm assuming) can vouch for the inconsistancy, that was the only reason I quit doing it. Got tired of making $3k one week and nothing for the next. I work a lot more hours now since I am an hourly employee at a company that keeps me busy but I make about the same per year and I get decent benifits.


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## ducaticorse

mpatch said:


> to the guys paying $40+ an hour I will raise the BS flag. There is no way you can pay a production climber that much as a FULL TIME EMPLOYEE with some bennies and remain profitable unless you are talking about part time/ contract climbers. When I was an independant climber I would make between $250 and $1k a day, but keep in mind the hardest part is keeping busy. Anybody that has been a independant climber (I'm assuming) can vouch for the inconsistancy, that was the only reason I quit doing it. Got tired of making $3k one week and nothing for the next. I work a lot more hours now since I am an hourly employee at a company that keeps me busy but I make about the same per year and I get decent benifits.


 
You are right about that, if you're are talking about full time with benefits etc. I am still getting off the ground, and I go through spurts of business, and some down time as well. If I was providing a 40 hour work week, with health, and all the other goodies, I'd be topping out at 20-30 doe. These guys have to understand what it costs to pay money to them, and realize the value of the benefits. Every hundred bucks in payroll is $14.5 in WC premium, forget about the taxes and premium for health care.....


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## mpatch

Figure wage x 1.5-1.75 to factor in WC, benefits (1/2 of health ins., PTO etc.),taxes, training etc. to come up with actual cost per hour that X employee is costing the company.


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## ducaticorse

mpatch said:


> Figure wage x 1.5-1.75 to factor in WC, benefits (1/2 of health ins., PTO etc.),taxes, training etc. to come up with actual cost per hour that X employee is costing the company.


 
Tough nut to crack. Something an employee rarely thinks about.


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## VA-Sawyer

I figure I'm losing money if I can't bill at least $25 for each $10 paid in wages. And that is for one that isn't breaking everything he touches.

As for climber wages, I have a climber I call in for bigger jobs. I prefer to run the ground ops on bigger jobs as I haven't yet found a GOOD groundie. He is a better climber than me, so it makes a faster job all around. He can count on making $50 - $100 per hour when he works for me. If I had him as a full time employee, I couldn't afford even $25/hr.
Rick


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## TreeClimber57

mpatch said:


> to the guys paying $40+ an hour I will raise the BS flag. There is no way you can pay a production climber that much as a FULL TIME EMPLOYEE with some bennies and remain profitable unless you are talking about part time/ contract climbers. When I was an independant climber I would make between $250 and $1k a day, but keep in mind the hardest part is keeping busy. Anybody that has been a independant climber (I'm assuming) can vouch for the inconsistancy, that was the only reason I quit doing it. Got tired of making $3k one week and nothing for the next. I work a lot more hours now since I am an hourly employee at a company that keeps me busy but I make about the same per year and I get decent benifits.



Agreed.. but then figure on maybe 2 to 3 days a week on regular basis.. and maybe more occasionally. Guys are not going to call you in every day if you are costing that much.


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## Blakesmaster

The fact that your gear is only a year old tells me that although you may be good, you're not a top notch climber. ( no offense intended ) 

Assuming I'm wrong and you are top notch you either gotta find a bigger company to work for or just start contract climbing. I hit the same wall with my old boss last year. He couldn't do more than $20 an hour and I knew I was worth more as a climber. Main issue was, that I wasn't always climbing. Some days I'd run bucket, some days I'd run ground, drive equipment, drag brush, split firewood whatever the day's tasks included. 

The guys making 30-50 an hour are with companies running at least 3-4 crews and they're in the tree all day every day while other crews do the easy jobs. 

If there are no companies like that in your area then you either gotta move, start contract climbing or start your own business.


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## Wenthome

no I wouldnt consider myself the best or top notch, only been doing this for 3 years. and like I said I bought my own gear before the start of the 3rd year after using a saddle that didnt fit me for 2 years. I use a small but was using a medium.

And Blakemaster how many climbers did you work with? I did atleast 50% of the climbing for 2years because it was just me and the foreman climbing. the way the company worked was I drove to the jobs, did the work (climbing or bucket) then did the cleanup. we had a ground man the second year, he didnt get call back because he didnt want to climb.

to clear things up the guy that told me 4 to 1000 a day, that was contract or side jobs.

like I said I saw on this site that someone posted. experienced climbers 2and a half years+ make 25-40 an hour. the high would be for foremans


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## TreeAce

hey wenthome...IMHO..do yourself a favor and just get this 400/1000 a day stuff outa your head. I see you are in Michigan so I am thinking your local economy is about as bad as it is near Cleveland where I am. If u have 2 or 3 years and your good or even really good then you "should" be making 17/18 an hour. Thats on the books money. WC is paid,unemployment, ect....I am sure its different in other parts of the country but for where u r at in experiance and geographic then personally I think you have fallen pray to some BS. Maybe bar room talk. I used to know a guy who was a half decent climber in his day and always talked about making 100 an hour. Turns out he made 100 an hour for about 4 days one time back in the freakn mid 90s....But he talked about it like it was so common.... poor guys head just stuck in the past.


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## treemandan

ducaticorse said:


> I'm a small and new company. I'd pay $40 an hour for a producer, and a leader that I could count on. Someone who could climb well, and control the entire site op to boot. I pay $30 an hour now for a climber that ends up aggravating me more than not. Around here, you can't get anything worth working with for less than $25, So what's another $15 for an individual who I can set up on a job site, and can trust to get everything done in the time allotted?
> 
> It's also relative to location as TC57 mentioned.
> 
> I don't know how anyone would ever fetch a grand a day, seems a bit ridiculous to me.


 
Well then learn to climb and control the entire jobsite yourself then you won't have to hire a climber to aggravate you... you will be able to do that yerself.


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## ducaticorse

treemandan said:


> Well then learn to climb and control the entire jobsite yourself then you won't have to hire a climber to aggravate you... you will be able to do that yerself.


 
I was doing the bucket work for my little biz for the first half of last summer, and soon found out that it was counterproductive to be a "working manager" by being locked onto a jobsite. Around here people want estimates asap, and want to hire asap. So if I get a call, I have to leave, and try an win work. I can't commit to being on the sight all day, not an option.


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## mpatch

ducaticorse said:


> I was doing the bucket work for my little biz for the first half of last summer, and soon found out that it was counterproductive to be a "working manager" by being locked onto a jobsite. Around here people want estimates asap, and want to hire asap. So if I get a call, I have to leave, and try an win work. I can't commit to being on the sight all day, not an option.



You will never make it unless you are running at least 2 crews. Unless you are doing some pretty abnormal numbers you will make almost no profit for yourself if you have to pay 2 or more men and expect to have enough left over to live on.


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## TreeClimber57

mpatch said:


> You will never make it unless you are running at least 2 crews. Unless you are doing some pretty abnormal numbers you will make almost no profit for yourself if you have to pay 2 or more men and expect to have enough left over to live on.


 
:agree2:


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## Blakesmaster

Wenthome said:


> no I wouldnt consider myself the best or top notch, only been doing this for 3 years. and like I said I bought my own gear before the start of the 3rd year after using a saddle that didnt fit me for 2 years. I use a small but was using a medium.
> 
> And Blakemaster how many climbers did you work with? I did atleast 50% of the climbing for 2years because it was just me and the foreman climbing. the way the company worked was I drove to the jobs, did the work (climbing or bucket) then did the cleanup. we had a ground man the second year, he didnt get call back because he didnt want to climb.
> 
> to clear things up the guy that told me 4 to 1000 a day, that was contract or side jobs.
> 
> like I said I saw on this site that someone posted. experienced climbers 2and a half years+ make 25-40 an hour. the high would be for foremans


 
I was the only climber with the company. 4 guys on the ground, 2 of them owners who were not always there. Occasionally the younger owner would strap on spikes if we had a bunch of easy trees to climb. But only 1/3rd of the jobs were climbers. Usually we could get the bucket to the tree. 

Sounds like a goofy setup that your boss wants everyone to climb. Brush draggers and wood humpers are a dime a dozen and real production necessitates that they are dragging and humping in order to keep the climber moving. The climber is the money maker and he needs to be climbing as much as possible, not cleaning up after himself. I think a bit of disorganization in the company is contributing to the fact you aren't making the big bucks. 

Say you have a $1000 job and you're worth 30 an hour. Why would the boss pay you to climb for 4 hours in the morning and clean up for 4 hours in the afternoon? He could just hire a ground man at 15 an hour to clean up as you go. You're then finishing that $1000 job in the morning and can move on to the next $1000 job in the afternoon. Only problem with this is you need the work to be there, hence the bigger company.


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## ducaticorse

mpatch said:


> You will never make it unless you are running at least 2 crews. Unless you are doing some pretty abnormal numbers you will make almost no profit for yourself if you have to pay 2 or more men and expect to have enough left over to live on.


 
100 percent agreed. I am the sales/finance/equipment/employee/site manager right now, as most of "US" are. I'm trying now to get a good crew put together, and marketing to support adding a second line truck to go out. I'm looking to get this going by spring of 2013. in order to achieve this, I cannot be on the site 100 percent of the time, just not gonna happen. I get by, and am able to make some reinvestment now, but obviously not as much as I'd like. In due time hopefully...


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## mpatch

This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.


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## TreeClimber57

TreeAce said:


> If u have 2 or 3 years and your good or even really good then you "should" be making 17/18 an hour. Thats on the books money. WC is paid,unemployment, ect....I am sure its different in other parts of the country but for where u r at in experiance and geographic then personally I think you have fallen pray to some BS.


 
I tend to agree. And by the time $18 is paid with all the WC, UI, etc as you stated it is up to the $25 range. Maybe more in some areas depending on overhead.. That is managable.. to make $40-50 an hour and then overhead which pushes that to $55-65 range.. just won't get any work at those rates. 

So do you want to make $40/hr (on paper) and sit at home waiting for work.. or $17-18/hr and actually do something.

In fact.. after expenses.. find me an owner who is making consistantly year round.. $400-1000/day in their take home salary. 

If there is one.. he might be the only one in North America. Figuring maybe 200 days a year.. Pick middle of road between the two and you get $700/day. that is $140,000/year.


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## TreeClimber57

mpatch said:


> This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.


 
:agree2:

I doubt there are many manking more than $25/hr..


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## BCbound

mpatch said:


> This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.


 
Geography seems to play a big role in pay. The yankees WCB is crazy and I can understand it's hard to give out good wages. But the money is out there for the right guy. I worked for two very good/small companies that where legit. I left those companies to go out on my own. I left those two companies making 30/hour and they offered incentives to stay. It was just time to do my own thing.

The right guy can run the show. Is a CA and has his own basic equipment(saddle/ppe/spurs/odds and ends). Professional at the site and doesn't wreck crap. Basically he's the equivelent of a journeyman. So what does a journeyman get paid in your area? 

If you can be this person you deserve good money. Represent the industry in a good manner and it will work out for everone. The tree industry has a terrible rep and I believe that reflects on getting good pay.

As for the contract climbing money, those big dollars are out there. I've made them. But, like someone said it is exteremly inconsistant. Plus if you are a legit contract climber you have a few other bills to think about. Guys call me to climb because I have my own WCB, liablity insurance, climbing and rigging gear to get 95% of the jobs done and my own fuel and transport. Minus all that crap off the day and the pay starts to drop. Plus if you do that $1000 day(which I've had a few) your most likely wrecked and need the next day or two off. It's not sustainable. The $500 a day is more common, still extemely unrelaible and the phone only rings for about a 4 month period for that kind of work(1-3days a week). That doesn't add up to a lot of chedder in the long run.


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## lxt

mpatch said:


> This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.


 
I agree, I just posted a job on the ISA site for a climber/aerial lift operator....starting wage is 18hr, I have a guy I pay much more than that closer to $28..........but he`s not getting any younger & I need someone I can trust to run the show......he`s it! Ill be selling the jobs now & doing all the office work & biz stuff............I will miss being in the field.

BUT......you never know in this economy, I might not be able to grow how I want & may end up full time back in the field???? but $30 - $40 an hour here is unheard of for a legit company!!!!!!



LXT..............


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## mpatch

lxt said:


> I agree, I just posted a job on the ISA site for a climber/aerial lift operator....starting wage is 18hr, I have a guy I pay much more than that closer to $28..........but he`s not getting any younger & I need someone I can trust to run the show......he`s it! Ill be selling the jobs now & doing all the office work & biz stuff............I will miss being in the field.
> 
> BUT......you never know in this economy, I might not be able to grow how I want & may end up full time back in the field???? but $30 - $40 an hour here is unheard of for a legit company!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> LXT..............


 

After a certain wage that person no longer can be considered "production level" because of what their job description is. Supervisors, managers etc. can get paid pretty well,over 100k per year but they aren't in the field and are almost always salaried positions.


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## TreeClimber57

*To bring a bit of reality to the subject...*

Ok.. Just pulled these REAL ads from our local ISA website.. so we are not talking BS here.. these are really what folks get and what is the pay. Note: driver licenses are Canadian .. so some of you won't recgonize.
D is to drive a truck - towing no more than a 10,000 lb trailer - Z is the air brake portion. G is a vehicle with trailer and truck combined to not exceed 10,000 lbs.

Climbing Arborist
• Minimum 3 years experience in safe and proper pruning and removals
• Clean driver’s record with a current G or DZ licence
• Current First Aid certificate, Fall arrest, chainsaw certificate, EUSA
• Wage of $18 + per hour based on qualifications.

Foreperson / Arborist
• Minimum of 5 years experience in a leadership role as a climbing arborist and foreperson
• Clean driver’s record with a current DZ licence
• Qualified and certified arborist
• Current First Aid certificate, Fall arrest, chainsaw certificate, EUSA
• Wage of $25-$30 per hour based on qualifications

So there you go.. and fits in with what most were saying here I think..


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## beowulf343

mpatch said:


> This thread is full of . If there is a single FULL time production level employee here making more than $30 an hour (unless you work NYC) with a legit company I would be very surprised. The numbers just won't allow it. If there is somewhere that a 2nd or 3rd year climber can make more than $20 I would be impressed.



Prepare to be surprised-i do, and don't work the city.


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## mpatch

beowulf343 said:


> Prepare to be surprised-i do, and don't work the city.


 Is it a family business, dad/uncle/brother etc. owns it? Are you in the field everyday doing production work or do you have more of supervisor type job? Year round work with any benefits? How long with the company? I am very curious. If you have benefits what are they? IM me if you are not wanting this info public


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## beowulf343

mpatch said:


> Is it a family business, dad/uncle/brother etc. owns it? Are you in the field everyday doing production work or do you have more of supervisor type job? Year round work with any benefits? How long with the company? I am very curious. If you have benefits what are they? IM me if you are not wanting this info public



It's not my family's business. It's a second generation tree company that's been around for 35 years now. No one at the outfit is related to me. The main office is in the same county i grew up in.

Yep, in the field, up the tree every single work day. Fifty to sixty hours a week, year around (we do work in snow and cold.) I'm not a businessman, was first in line for the family business and let my brother have it-i don't want to be stuck indoors at a desk or dealing with customers every day. I want to climb trees, so that's what i do. I do run a minimum five man crew, with close to a million dollars worth of equipment. But there is little paperwork or hassle since my crew are long time employees, i, personally, just put trees on the ground all day long.

We work trees year around, and my crew does NO make work (plowing, mowing, spraying, etc.) Full benefits, wouldn't be with the outfit if i didn't have them-can go down the road to asplundh and get full union benefits. Medical, dental, eyeglass, prescription, chiropractor (money saver for me), 401k, and i've got seniority enough for four weeks paid vacation and one week paid sick time.

I started with this company in 1999. Was a tramp climber at the time, answered an ad in the pennysaver. Their top removal/crane climber was going to retire and they wanted to find a replacement early. I actually worked with the guy who was retiring for almost two years then took over the crew. Been with them ever since except for a year and a half leave of absence to learn some new climbing skills out west.


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## mpatch

beowulf343 said:


> It's not my family's business. It's a second generation tree company that's been around for 35 years now. No one at the outfit is related to me. The main office is in the same county i grew up in.
> 
> Yep, in the field, up the tree every single work day. Fifty to sixty hours a week, year around (we do work in snow and cold.) I'm not a businessman, was first in line for the family business and let my brother have it-i don't want to be stuck indoors at a desk or dealing with customers every day. I want to climb trees, so that's what i do. I do run a minimum five man crew, with close to a million dollars worth of equipment. But there is little paperwork or hassle since my crew are long time employees, i, personally, just put trees on the ground all day long.
> 
> We work trees year around, and my crew does NO make work (plowing, mowing, spraying, etc.) Full benefits, wouldn't be with the outfit if i didn't have them-can go down the road to asplundh and get full union benefits. Medical, dental, eyeglass, prescription, chiropractor (money saver for me), 401k, and i've got seniority enough for four weeks paid vacation and one week paid sick time.
> 
> I started with this company in 1999. Was a tramp climber at the time, answered an ad in the pennysaver. Their top removal/crane climber was going to retire and they wanted to find a replacement early. I actually worked with the guy who was retiring for almost two years then took over the crew. Been with them ever since except for a year and a half leave of absence to learn some new climbing skills out west.


 
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal, wish I had that much PTO.


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## beowulf343

Not trying to offend you with the following at all mpatch. Was looking back at your previous posts since i didn't recognize your name right off the bat. Noticed your post about your crane guy who has done 600+ crane removals in the last couple years.
My crew averages a little over 100 crane removals a week. That's why my boss feels he can afford to pay me what he does.


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## mpatch

beowulf343 said:


> Not trying to offend you with the following at all mpatch. Was looking back at your previous posts since i didn't recognize your name right off the bat. Noticed your post about your crane guy who has done 600+ crane removals in the last couple years.
> My crew averages a little over 100 crane removals a week. That's why my boss feels he can afford to pay me what he does.


 
I'm guessing the company you work for owns a crane. The work we do out here is vastly different than back east. I trim at least 10 trees to everyone one I remove. When I was working back east it was the complete opposite. The part of Colorado I am in there aren't very many trees. Since we dont do very many large removals we contract a crane. How can you pick 20 trees in a day? I takes at least 30-40 minutes to set up/take down a crane. Are you picking little <20" DBH trees all day long?


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## lxt

100 crane removals a week????? a 100.......? either you are doing multiple picks at one job or using that crane for anything & everything!!!!

there is a guy here who subs out to tree care companies exclusively...he told me when I hired him........"im busy as hell, 2- 3 jobs a day" mind you I had to schedule around him he was so busy!! monster oak (dead) I know what is involved in using a crane!

just port to job & set up will take time......so if you work 50 hours a week you`re telling me your crane operator is doing 2 picks an hour....or 2 jobs an hour & thats with no break, no pre or post trip & no travel time....? Beo...I love ya man but 100 crane picks a wk is total BS!!!



LXT.............


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## JohnH

lxt said:


> 100 crane removals a week????? a 100.......? either you are doing multiple picks at one job or using that crane for anything & everything!!!!
> 
> there is a guy here who subs out to tree care companies exclusively...he told me when I hired him........"im busy as hell, 2- 3 jobs a day" mind you I had to schedule around him he was so busy!! monster oak (dead) I know what is involved in using a crane!
> 
> just port to job & set up will take time......so if you work 50 hours a week you`re telling me your crane operator is doing 2 picks an hour....or 2 jobs an hour & thats with no break, no pre or post trip & no travel time....? Beo...I love ya man but 100 crane picks a wk is total BS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> LXT.............


 
I dont think thats total BS. How many crans are you running? I know our company does that or better when were busy but that depends on the jobs.


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## lxt

JohnH said:


> I dont think thats total BS. How many crans are you running? I know our company does that or better when were busy but that depends on the jobs.


 


I would have to see that!!! c`mon............so your telling me if I have 10 crews on the same street that need a crane removal....10 crews = 10 jobs......you are telling me that the crane is doing each job in under an hour??? & thats going from house to house

either those are very,very simple trees & your climber/bucket operator got there early & pre-rigged the whole tree................or what you guys consider a crane removal is something totally different than what I do?????

when I have a crane show up...here, its a minimum of 4hrs = $600.00 counting port to job....we then work in conjunction with the crane operator during the removal process!!! * the crew still has to clean up the mess* with a 5 man crew on what I consider to be a crane job!!!! the crane might be done in 4 hrs but we need the rest of the day & sometimes into the next!! even at this rate in my biz, if the crane followed us to the next job (considering we leave the mess) we could only do 2 picks a day!

So.....even if you own the crane, you still have initial port to job time! If your company has 10 crews all working in close proximity with every thing timed perfectly!!!!!!!!!! you still have to clean the mess up!!! whats the crane do then???

I am no crane expert...........tis why I hire the guy I mentioned.........funny he`s busy at 3 jobs a day & if he worked 7 days would still not have 1/4 of the picks you guys are mentioning!!! at the amount you have stated you guys are crane picking rosebushes or something......no way* you are doing any big rigging & picking!*



LXT.................


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## lxt

JohnH said:


> I dont think thats total BS. How many crans are you running? I know our company does that or better when were busy but that depends on the jobs.


 
I just have to know?? how many cranes are you running? & are they just for tree work? 


LXT..........


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## JohnH

lxt said:


> I just have to know?? how many cranes are you running? & are they just for tree work?
> 
> 
> LXT..........


 
Right now were running 4 cranes. Were adding a 5th in the spring. Last summer we were running 6 cranes we rented 2 more because the 4 we had couldn't keep up. They are just for treework but sometimes not very often some of our clinents have us do some other stuff. As for cleaning up the mess it gets processed as it comes down. the crane is always moving. We run 4 man crews with good size chippers. Most of the chip trucks are 20-25 yards or better on crane crews.
Some jobs are 1 tree that takes all day and others are large numbers of trees to come down.


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## lxt

JohnH said:


> Right now were running 4 cranes. Were adding a 5th in the spring. Last summer we were running 6 cranes we rented 2 more because the 4 we had couldn't keep up. They are just for treework but sometimes not very often some of our clinents have us do some other stuff. As for cleaning up the mess it gets processed as it comes down. the crane is always moving. We run 4 man crews with good size chippers. Most of the chip trucks are 20-25 yards or better on crane crews.
> Some jobs are 1 tree that takes all day and others are large numbers of trees to come down.


 

well your operation is not small by any means with up to 6 cranes running......thats awesome, you would need 10 crews to keep up! no one in my area & I mean no one has even 1 crane they own....every one here has to sub that out!! you work for a large company apparently!

I worked for Davey & have been to their Kent office several times & I dont think they even have that many accessible cranes?? Wow... I would love to see an operation that utilizes that kind of equipment!


LXT................


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## JohnH

heres who I work for. http://www.treetechinc.net/
We have added a lot more equip. than whats in the pics.


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## prorover

*Missoula MT*



Wenthome said:


> Hello, I'm new here and need some help. I read a while back on this site that experienced climbers make between 25 and 40 dollars an hour, the company that trained me wont pay me 20an hour to come back in march, after 3years with them. The last year using my own gear(rope, saddle, buck strap and hand saw).
> 
> When I decided to get into climbing I was working with a climber who said he made between 400 and 1000 a day, and that there weren't many climbers out there.
> 
> If I cant find a company to pay 20+ to start then Ill have some 1year old equipment for sale.
> 
> So are climbers paid well? or are we a dime a dozen?


 
Or U could come to Montana and make $10 per hour...but u gotta have experience and a CD..NO TRAINEES!!!!TREE CLIMBER/TRIMMER / 2978967 
Wage $10.00 - $12.00 Hourly Location MISSOULA, MISSOULA, MT, 59801
Local employer needs a TREE CLIMBER and TRIMMER WITH THEIR OWN GEAR to climb ladders and related equipment, operate a bucket truck, work around power lines and other barriers, and operate tools which involve machine-driven blades. The employer wants someone with gear and MUST have experience trimming trees to maintain tree health. NO TRAINEE's. Only Experienced people need to apply. Applicants need to have valid driver's license and clean MVR. CDL would be a plus. The job is seasonal and very busy in the fall, spring, and summer. Position starts at part-time and will increase to full-time in beginning of March. Work schedule is Monday-Friday and hours can be discussed at time of interview, as employer has some flexibility. Wage starts at $10 to $12 an hour depending on experience. //MM. ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS: Bend, stretch, twist, or reach out with the body, arms, and/or legs; climb ladders; keep or regain the body's balance or stay upright when in an unstable position; and use hands to handle, control, or feel objects, tools, or controls.


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## ddhlakebound

prorover said:


> Or U could come to Montana and make $10 per hour...but u gotta have experience and a CD..NO TRAINEES!!!!TREE CLIMBER/TRIMMER / 2978967
> Wage $10.00 - $12.00 Hourly Location MISSOULA, MISSOULA, MT, 59801
> Local employer needs a TREE CLIMBER and TRIMMER WITH THEIR OWN GEAR to climb ladders and related equipment, operate a bucket truck, work around power lines and other barriers, and operate tools which involve machine-driven blades. The employer wants someone with gear and MUST have experience trimming trees to maintain tree health. NO TRAINEE's. Only Experienced people need to apply. Applicants need to have valid driver's license and clean MVR. CDL would be a plus. The job is seasonal and very busy in the fall, spring, and summer. Position starts at part-time and will increase to full-time in beginning of March. Work schedule is Monday-Friday and hours can be discussed at time of interview, as employer has some flexibility. Wage starts at $10 to $12 an hour depending on experience. //MM. ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS: Bend, stretch, twist, or reach out with the body, arms, and/or legs; climb ladders; keep or regain the body's balance or stay upright when in an unstable position; and use hands to handle, control, or feel objects, tools, or controls.


 
Hirarious.....You're gonna be climbing you're own trees for a long time to come, ain't cha......Too funny.....:monkey:


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## beowulf343

Lxt, mpatch, this is to reply to your questions, comments, doubts, etc. Don't feel like copy and posting you since i've already gone over how we do things in the past.

The outfit i work for doesn't own a crane, it owns multiple cranes. Right now we have two smaller cranes (30-40 ton) and two larger cranes (70+ tons) working every day. But first i should probably go over the terminology i use for crane work. A crane job is the single job you did with the crane, whether it was one tree or 300 trees, whether it took one hour or one year. A crane removal is a tree that was removed by a crane. A crane pick is each pick the crane made. So there can be many crane removals in one crane job and many crane picks in one crane removal. I read the sentence below as saying the operator has removed 600+ trees, not that he had done 600+ crane jobs, since i've been on a single job that was 600+ trees. Of course, my terminology may be way off, but this is the way it is around our shop. 


mpatch said:


> the crane guy we normally use has done 600+ (he keeps track for some reason) crane removals in the last few years, he's good which makes my job easy.



So, when i say my crew does 100 crane removals a week, i mean 100 trees were removed by a crane and myself in a week period. Of course, you now jump to "that's impossible, what with moving the crane, etc." You are right, but i've explained this before too. The two smaller cranes do the work in the local area near the main shop. However, unlike your area lxt, cranes have gotten big around here. They almost seem more prevalent in small outfits than even a bucket. So the competition is fierce for the lightweight crane division. The boss decided to branch into a different route a few years back. He took his best climber and his best bucket guy (both with several years of crane experience at this point), gave them a big crane, big chipper, big chip trucks, big equipment, (multiple certifications) and he went after the big contracts that guys like yourself can't touch. 

The crew i run is a niche crew. The minimum i pull up to a job with is two ten wheeler chip dumps, a bandit 1990, a fourteen wheeler grapple truck, and a 75 ton crane. The _minimum _. With that much iron on the road, there is no way anybody can make money doing single tree jobs. We get the jobs that involve a minimum of tear down and moving. 

Example, monday-wednesday (three days), my crew did a contract for the state. A bridge on a main highway in the middle of the state is being replaced by another one next to it. Both banks had to be cleared of the big trees. We removed 74 cottonwoods, willows, etc., from four setup locations, either on the bridge or on either bank. Of course, now you get into how to process this. Well, let's just say we don't fart around. What's the use in purchasing a high end crane and not have the equipment to keep it in constant motion? We kept three chip truck running constantly, two grapple loaders in constant motion, i mean, when you are putting wood down like this, everything is pretty much mechanized, you don't have four guys trying to bully a top onto the chipper. To sidetrack a bit, i see there was some concern about doing this many picks in the time allotted. Well, when you are mechanized, there are shortcuts. One of the biggest slowdowns i see on crane crews is using the crane to load wood. Not us, we dump the wood on the road or whatever "landing" we are using and get the hook back to the climber. No balancing stems, no up and down, no turning, no trying to squeeze it in the back of the truck. The old man believes that log loaders should load wood. Of course, the loaders are going to be at the job another day or two to finish hauling out the wood, but it's no big deal because the crane has already moved on and spent those two days making money on a new job. 

So, for three days we did one crane job, 74 crane removals, and 300+ crane picks, and all this with a minimum of movement (although 220+ feet of reach does help.) And we do jobs like this all the time, it's why my crew was built. A county road widening job, 270+ removals in three weeks. A city contract, 80ish removals in four days. A corporate building contract, 109 removals in eight days. And the list goes on, into june right now. I think this is the problem, you guys are thinking too small. So you have a chipper, and maybe a bucket, and maybe an employee or two. That's not the be-all-end-all of the tree world. You seriously don't know any outfits with multiple crews or even multiple crews and a crane? Come on-not counting asplundh, i've done work with four different companies that have at least five crews. And you also need to think bigger geographically. So you are the biggest outfit in your town. Ok, but for the work my crew needs to do to make money, we cover chunks of three states (of course this is not the whole outfit, just the two big crane crews.) I don't understand why you have to pigeonhole every tree outfit into the size of your tree company. Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Oh, and as for the ""less than 20" dbh" insult, a 395 is my everyday climb saw, 20" is my first cut.


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## JohnH

thats about the way we work also. We dont have an 80 tonner yet but were getting there


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## Shaun Bowler

This thread is starting to sound like Science Fiction
I will raise you 31 cranes to your 7.


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## lxt

Shaun Bowler said:


> This thread is starting to sound like Science Fiction
> I will raise you 31 cranes to your 7.


 
exactly..........!

I have worked for Asplundh, Davey & Lewis & they never...........NEVER used a crane!! & where Im at I only know of one company using a crane that they own!! ONE....thats it.

its amazing......Beo, you mention all that Iron on the road & I truly think thats amazing..............however, cranes might be big where you`re at but not here! those jobs you think you can do that I cant touch..............I got news for ya!! you`re not getting that 75 ton anchor into half the towns in my area without a special permit (very costly) and to boot....what the hell good is it when the 100fter is in the back yard thats inaccesible for such a tool?

you can have all the tri-axles you want, cranes, dual wheel chippers, etc... all that would be worthless here..........you wouldnt get that crane into one Pittsburgh neighborhood & if you did you would never get it out!!

If you are doing what you`re saying then hats off to ya, Ill take ya at yer word! But here my man............cranes are for gothically huge, dead masterpieces of God...anything alive.....you`re climbing it, if your lucky you`ll get a bucket or towable to it for the elevator ride & thats it!

half my work area scares me...............10 ton weight limit signs all over then the occasional 7 ton limt.........yeah they`d make a killing off your outfit!




LXT................


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## Wenthome

alright Ive read most of the posts, except the super long ones.

20 bucks an hour for 9 months work is less than 30 thousand a year, not worth it to me, and I cant find that? 

plus I looked up wc and at its max it can be something like 20-25 bucks for every hundred the employee makes, so paying 600 a week to the employee would cost 120-150 in wc, not 1.5 to 2x what the employee makes.

Ill be calling around soon and if I cant find what I want owell. I have no interest in being foreman or climbing for less than 30k a year.

thanks for the help


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## lxt

Wenthome said:


> alright Ive read most of the posts, except the super long ones.
> 
> 20 bucks an hour for 9 months work is less than 30 thousand a year, not worth it to me, and I cant find that?
> 
> plus I looked up wc and at its max it can be something like 20-25 bucks for every hundred the employee makes, so paying 600 a week to the employee would cost 120-150 in wc, not 1.5 to 2x what the employee makes.
> 
> Ill be calling around soon and if I cant find what I want owell. I have no interest in being foreman or climbing for less than 30k a year.
> 
> thanks for the help


 

20 an hour is typical rate! there is a union here & those guys doing lineclearance only make $22 hr give or take, they have bennies.....but they`re not all that great, not what they use to be!

I feel like you, I went out on my own cuz I didnt like the fact some lazy non climbing bum gets the same % raise I do....cuz its union!! I like being on my own, there are those days & sometimes those days are all in a row that make you wonder why am I doing this?......But then it gets turned around, I get paid & say oh yeah I Love my Job!!

I was once told: "in every life a lil rain must fall" & that is true, see it through, stay the course & it`ll work out for ya!!

Good Luck!!!


LXT...........


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## mpatch

"So, for three days we did one crane job, 74 crane removals, and 300+ crane picks"

see that' the difference, I have never been able to use a crane on a small tree. Simple math says 4-5 picks per tree, those must be tiny trees or you are running a 150T+ crane with huge drop zones. Most of the crane trees we do out here range from 60-120" DBH with an height of 80-110 feet, mostly Cottonwoods.


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## lxt

mpatch said:


> "So, for three days we did one crane job, 74 crane removals, and 300+ crane picks"
> 
> see that' the difference, I have never been able to use a crane on a small tree. Simple math says 4-5 picks per tree, those must be tiny trees or you are running a 150T+ crane with huge drop zones. Most of the crane trees we do out here range from 60-120" DBH with an height of 80-110 feet, mostly Cottonwoods.


 

I know....! mpatch you sound like when we have a crane come out, when we "have" to bring out the "big iron" as it is called (i guess)...we are charging big time for it!!!

sounds to me like any operation doing crane removals like what we have heard are doing it to keep the crane working so they can make the payments.......Ill bet in the end their profit margin is no better than mine & I dont really consider a crane removal when you are doing 50ft elms, cherries...that would get you laughed outta biz here!!!


LXT.............


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## mpatch

Man what I would give to be able to crane out everything! Would make my life and the groundies life a lot easier.


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## JohnH

mpatch said:


> Man what I would give to be able to crane out everything! Would make my life and the groundies life a lot easier.


 
that is one of the reasons why we do it that way


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## TreeClimber57

lxt said:


> 10 ton weight limit signs all over then the occasional 7 ton limt...



Could not even drive a bucket truck down a road with that limit on it.


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