# spikes



## JonnyHart (Mar 31, 2004)

hello maybe I am out of line trying to post a new thread on my first day here, and you probably had this thread in the past, but am I an inconsiderate jerk because I climb with spikes? In this area that is the only way people climb, that was how I learned. Of course I use a saddle, lanyard, and climbing line at the same time, I know there are other ways to get up there, but is any other method as fast? I won't use my gaffs to trim a Beech, Birch, or other smooth bark "pretty tree". But it's a pain in the butt to do it any other way, UNLESS, somebody can guide me in the right direction. Thanx in advance for all replies. Oh yeah, I got my new Sherrill catalog today, don't quite get that other bowline in it, how is it any better or easier than the running bowline?( maybe this belongs in a different thread) be safe


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## Lumberjack (Mar 31, 2004)

Welcome!!

Spiking on trims is hack work. 

If you keep an open mind, many people here can show you how to become a great climber, that can climb fast without spikes.


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## JonnyHart (Mar 31, 2004)

Thank you for your quick reply, and I do feel a bit embarassed to trim with spikes, I suppose I need to learn firsthand how to do the footlock method, I understand the body thrust way, but it is a bit tough on tall ascents (maybe I need to see the gym more often). I know in N.J. it is illegal to trim with gaffs, so they can't be good, but like I said, in western N.Y., that is how they do it.


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## NeTree (Mar 31, 2004)

Spiking on a tree not being removed is highly frowned upon for a number of legitimate reasons. It's based on solid arboricultural (read as scientific) fact.

It opens up numerous wounds that can invite insects and decay.

It makes the tree bleed out precious sap and use vital nutrients compartmentalizing many more wounds than just your pruning cuts - which when made properly, cause relatively little stress.

It looks like $????, plain and simple. The whole purpose for a customer to pay you to prune a tree is mainly to make it look pretty. Nothing looks worse than a nicely pruned tree with alot of big gaff marks all over the darn thing.

It's considered the sign of a lazy, uneducated, and unprofessional climber.


There are plenty of ways to get up the tree just as fast (if not faster). Stick around awhile, and we'll teach you.


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## rbtree (Mar 31, 2004)

Jonny, welcome to Arborist site.

With your attitude, you'll go far...and learn a lot fast about proper tree work, caring for and respecting trees! There's tons of archived info here, if you use the search function. some search terms to try: SRT, DdRT, footlocking, split tail, slack tender, ascenders, Blake's Hitch, Distel Hitch, french prusssic, old school, new school, certified arborist...and much more...help me out guys. For books, get the Tree Climber's companion for starters.


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## JonnyHart (Mar 31, 2004)

Thank you I always try to keep an open mind, and any feedback is welcome. I love to learn, and I don't want to be thought of as a hack, but you can ascend and get out on long branches faster without the use of spikes? Please teach me, because I could gain much more business than any local competitor if I had the knowledge. Also, I usually use a ladder to get up there a little so there ain't spike marks up the main trunk.


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## NeTree (Mar 31, 2004)

For starters, what are you wearing on your feet?

I wear hiking boots on trims. I use my lifeline and lanyard to "limbwalk".

FWIW, faster isn't always better. Distinguish yourself by being BETTER than the competition. Quality should ALWAYS come first.


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## JonnyHart (Mar 31, 2004)

I love this site! Thank you for all replys. I wear Wesco Highliners. They are the most comfortable boot for climbing with spikes. Hiking boots are good for without spikes? Would it be a good idea to invest in a Bigshot, throwbag, and slickline? Also I should add that I am on quite a budget, and I am a paid climber, I don't own a business yet, but my gear, and topping saw are mine.


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## NeTree (Apr 1, 2004)

At the very least, a throwbag and line are a must. On short hops, I use my biner to chuck my line up. [I use a steel biner because the extra weight works well for just this very purpose, but most guys use aluminum]

Yes, it seems most guys are wearing more comfy footwear for most stuff.

Careful how you say "topping"... don't want ya opening up another can of worms!  But we know what you mean.

What are you using for a climbing saw? j/c.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Oh yeah, what trees handle spike trimming best? We have alot of silver maple here, and they do well, but about a year and a half ago, I climbed and removed a mid size nearly dead pin oak, and on the same property, trimmed another mid size pin oak. Well, a month later we were back at that property removing the tree I had trimmed. Did I kill it? Did I spread an infection from from one tree to another with my spikes? Is this that sudden oak death, because it was very, very sudden? thanx for all replies.


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## NeTree (Apr 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JonnyHart _
> *Oh yeah, what trees handle spike trimming best? *



None. That's why it's FROWNED upon.



> *Did I kill it? Did I spread an infection from from one tree to another with my spikes? Is this that sudden oak death, because it was very, very sudden?*




Very possible. And that would open you up to professional liability, by the way. You could be sued for the value of the tree... and mature trees aren't cheap.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Whoops! I always try to talk the customer out of topping, but the boss don't like that. He ain't a great boss, but my family is fed. Like I said I don't have alot of extra cash for a nice saw, I have an echo cs300, and it is weak. I'm impressed it has run for the past year and a half, but if I want to, I can always take an 026 up with me.


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## NeTree (Apr 1, 2004)

Having run Stihl 020's, and handled the new Husky, I'm still quite satisfied with my old 3400. They aren't really a bad saw at all.


<=========Here's mine in action.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Erik I hope I did not come off as sounding cocky, I do not want to offend or butt heads here, but the silvers do take it well. I am a compensated employee, not a sub-contractor or buisiness owner so I am not liable for anything, I was just following the bosses orders. Let me say I do not endorse spikes, and I am not proud that I trim with them, but I do not know any other way. I wish to learn all I can from those who know more than me. Sooo, what do you suggest? Should I save for a little while and get into an arbormaster class?


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Yeah, my one boss has a tail handled 3400, but my 300 is weak, and I've spent a little time tinkering with the carb. Thanx for fast reply.


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## NeTree (Apr 1, 2004)

Didn't take it as sounding cocky. However, you wrote "arborist" in your profile. That opens you up to scrutiny, at least.

Welcome to the site where the elite hang out. Don't be afraid to be humbled or be taken aback. Alot of new people (who thought they knew alot) are bewildered at just how much more there was to learn. Myself included.

If you ever get the chance, those Arbormaster classes seem to help guys out by leaps. Nothing like some hands-on training from the best in the industry. I can't speak from experience, but I can't say I've ever heard anyone say they were sorry they went, but I have heard alot of guys say they were glad they did.

That said, what gives you the most trouble? Getting into the tree to start with or getting out to into thinner wood?

It'd help to know what you're climbing with for gear- saddle, rope, lanyard, etc.


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## NeTree (Apr 1, 2004)

FWIW, a good climber properly trained in tree health, safety, proper tree care and climbing techniques can REALLY keep the family fed.

A hack climber may make some money, but I've had climbers I've paid upwards of $20 an hour, because they were worth it. One was making $35 and change.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

oh yeah, another boss of mine uses a husky 338xpt, not a 335, and it runs great and has mad power, but it has fallen apart, it is missing the muffler cover, and the spark plug cover. He said he never dropped if but a saw has to see some trauma to be in that kind of shape. Like I said it runs like a champ, you just burn and zap yourself if you're not to careful.


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## NeTree (Apr 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JonnyHart _
> * I am a compensated employee, not a sub-contractor or buisiness owner so I am not liable for anything, I was just following the bosses orders. *



Just a heads up...when presenting yourself as an arborist:

Arborists are considered professionals, not too unlike a doctor. Doctors can be sued personally, as well as their employers for their actions, in some cases. Is it really worth the risk of finding out what those cases may be the hard way?


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## rbtree (Apr 1, 2004)

Gaffing any tree should be avoided at all costs, as others have said...

Out here in big tall tree country, there's lots of guys, even certified arborists, that gaff trees. 

Absorb knowledge here and elsewhere, get some good equipment, go practice and hone your rope climbing skills on your own time, then get some literature, say form the ISA website, on gaffing, and maybe topping, show it to your boss, tell him you would rather do work a better way, maybe he'll understand.

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/topping.asp
http://www.isa-arbor.com/shared/scripts/search.asp


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Perhaps I should change my profile. I am not certified in anything (except E.M.T., and there is no money there, but it can help in case of an accident, God forbid), so maybe I am not an arborist. I welcome all scrutiny, and hope all who offer it can point me in the right dirrection. I learned how to climb with spikes, and thats what I know, and I am sorry for being ignorant of other ways, I wish to learn. I love to make a client happy. I am always proud of my trimming work. I always enjoy turning a nasty, hairy tree in a beautiful piece of vertical landscape, and would enjoy it more if my tree didn't have little gaff wounds all over it. Thanx for all replys, advice, and scrutiny. Be safe!


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## SilverBlue (Apr 1, 2004)

Hey Jonny, your going to like it here and there are some great arborists not too far from you and we can show you the equipment to get the job done in person if time allows. I had my crew down your way not too long ago, perhaps we will be again some time this summer.
Rob.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Thank you for a warm welcome to your site. You are all very supportive, and skilled. Many of you are hard at work all day, and then use your own time to be on an arborist site, and let me tell you, I share your passion. Silverblue, where can I learn new skills close to home? I have been thinking about trying to relocate down south, or maybe with applying with a big tree service( asplundh, lewis, davey), but my dream is to own my own company, and I won't "fly by night" my way to get there. I know you could get away with that years ago, but not now. Am I getting far away from the subject? thanx for replys.


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## SilverBlue (Apr 1, 2004)

I don’t think you will get far with the bigger companies especially if you want to learn and use the methods that the top pros use here. Stick around and keep asking questions, I will have to get you in touch with some of the locals worth working for. And make sure to order a copy of the new Sherrill catalog.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Thank you for any help. I am way past my bed time, gotta meet the boss at 8:00 for a few Norway Maple trims. Maybe I'll try them with out spikes, after all, I get paid by the hour. Good night and God bless. Be safe. 
oh yeah, got the new sherrill cat. today, love it but don't get that other bowline.


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## Stumper (Apr 1, 2004)

Jonny, Welcome! That Sherrill catalog will have a lot of helpful illustrations. Buy a copy of The Tree Climber's Companion. That little book shows how to use lots of progressive techniques! As Rb said:-tcheck out the search function on this site. A shotbag and line will really helpfor accessing the trees(and using a ladder to get up[ into the canopy often makes sense) Learning to foot lock would be great but for those of us who struggle with it there is a nifty little device called a Pantin that mkes climbing our rope a breeze. You'll find that walking the limbs is a lot EASIER without gaffs strapped to your feet.

Best wishes,


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Didn't take it as sounding cocky. However, you wrote "arborist" in your profile. That opens you up to scrutiny, at least.
> 
> Welcome to the site where the elite hang out. Don't be afraid to be humbled or be taken aback. Alot of new people (who thought they knew alot) are bewildered at just how much more there was to learn. Myself included.
> ...


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

thank you all for the advice, I'll be sure to get the Tree Climbers Companion, and the pantin foot ascender.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 1, 2004)

Johnny welcome,
I had a real tuff time during my 4th year in the trees. 
It was weird, every tree I came to made me shake with fear.
I'd stand back and figure out 100 different ways I was going do it and would get to the point of backing out. 
I thought seriously about changing occupations.
Of course, I was working with my first Certified Arborist company.!!!

Looking back I think it took 4 years as a production climber to be prepared for what the CA's were cutting and how they were climbing.

If your not working for yourself, find a CA company and hang out for at least a year. 
Now, the only thing that shakes is the sawdust falling to the ground...heh


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

Yeah, I haver never worked for a Certified Arborist company, and I think it's about time. Come to think of it I don't think I ever met a Certified Arborist, maybe a dozen climbers, but no CA. I don't really shake with fear, well maybe on a very big, very dead poplar or willow. or if its really windy. I don't ever want to change occupations, just get a new boss. I work for three companys currently, but two of them just call me for trees that they don't want to climb. I don't think there are any CA companys in my area. I think I know just about everyone in the phonebook. I should try to get cert. myself and try to run my own buisiness.I got a pickup, climbing saw, stihl039, climbing and rigging gear. Don't know what I'm looking at for insurance. Isn't it funny how as a thread goes on the subject gets changed.


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## topnotchtree (Apr 1, 2004)

Hey John,welcome to the site. Do you use a pole pruner? I use a pruner quite often to set my rope higher tham me in a tree.Climb up, body thrust up, then reset your rope till you get to a good tie in point to do the whole tree.Working for one of the big companies is a mixed idea.If you get in with the right group of trimmers it can be great experience, learning all kinds of techniques. You will gain lots of knowledge of power wires, learn how to tell what is a phone wire, cable tv wire, service drops etc. Around here Asplundh has around 8 crews at each pull-out. So you can get the experience of 8 different foreman, learning ways of doing things from each boss you will have.I have been very fortunate for all my teachers, but I am learning not all areas are as good as where I am. Asplundh (in my area) does not like to see all the new style climbing gear and gadgets hanging froim their men. They like things simple and basic. Good luck!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't understand using a pole pruner to set your rope.

I just throw my rope.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 1, 2004)

Whattt!!
A 3 sectional jameson pole redirect!!!!
You can smoke with tree spikeless with it.
Push the rope out 20 + feet and pull it back to you, tie in and your swinging dude.
After months of only this technique you will know the way of "Repulse the Monkey"


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 1, 2004)

*Twenty feet?*

I just make a M-fist and toss. Why pack a pole saw around if you don't hafta?


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *I found myself not wanting to climb as much when I had a polesaw, I'd sit in the middle of the tree and wave the polesaw around instead of working the tree right. *



Yeah, I've seen a few climbers that like to do that... hang out in the bowl, and make bad cuts.

Its really easier to just get out there and make the cut. I use the pole saw for the tippy-tip stuff, if the job is priced thataway!  

And the MISTLETOE!!!


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## xtremetrees (Apr 1, 2004)

Ive found that I did not like the cuts made with a pole saw. They werent flush at all. Often I left over 2 inch stubbs because of the position I would be in. With the 3 sec. jamesons.

How do you pull that monkey fist back to you MB?, Im speaking laterally of course.

My first time without spikes: After 1 hr of bigshoting a tree with a 3 section we set a rope. I Mar-bared up 125 feet, took a look at the traversing (3 redirects) for 3 dead limbs 60 feet straight across the crown, got squirmish and squirlled down. It was my first time at 125 feet with no spikes. I crawldaddyed down like the coward I was. It was the only tree in my career I didnt do. It took the CA 2 hrs to make them 3 cuts at 125ftup.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *
> 
> How do you pull that monkey fist back to you MB?, Im speaking laterally of course. *



If by 'laterally' you mean when the rope is horoziontal to me, but 10, 15 feet out away from me, I take up a big bight of my tail, whup it around and catch the fist/line, and pull it to me.

Wuz that it?


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## xtremetrees (Apr 1, 2004)

Yep that'll werk everytime.
I've seen it done twice, the same dude (that did the move) would stand around on the ground during his smoke break or other free time and make monkey fist and trow them up constantly. He was always throwing that monkey fist on the ground. He was the fastest man in town to. No kidding.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 2, 2004)

I can tell I am going to enjoy this site! thanx for all replys. I don't want to spend my days clearing the power lines so if thats what the big companies offer I'll pass. I think Lewis does commerial and residential. I do plenty of work around the primary wire, and other wires, I just don't want to do it permenantly. I haven't take a polesaw with me in a tree much, sounds like it would take some getting used to. I use the monkey fist often, but just learned it from a climber a year and a half ago. If too far away, laterally speaking, I use a stick if ones handy, or just feed it to the ground and have a groundie flick it to me, but I saw my boss use his tail to grab it, I should try it sometime. I use the fist so I don't have to spike all the way up, think I should try without spikes as soon as all this rain lets up. Etremetrees, I would probably chicken out with spikes. The highest I have ever been I think is about 85 ft. and I don't think anybody will get any higher in Western New York. My old boss used to work in GA, he said the trees are taller there. Maybe I should relocate... hmmmmm. The company I work for full time is called Top Notch Tree Service.Thank you for all advice everybody.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 2, 2004)

Good for you Jonny. Find out when your ISA chapter climbing competition is and go check it out for a few hours. Then you will get a chance to see some reall climbing and get a few ideas.

Maybe you could get some to the Toronto fellahs to get together on a rec climb with you.


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## topnotchtree (Apr 4, 2004)

I usually climb to top of 24 foot ladder and buck in. I then proceed to climb up the tree if there are limbs to climb up on. If there are no limbs to climb up on, I set my rope above me with a 12 foot pruner. That usually gets me up to where there are limbs to climb up on again.Climbing with a 12 foot pruner is admitting a pain sometimes but that is how I learned. I will admit to free climbing at times when it feels comfortable to me. It was taught to me as 3 point climbing. 2 hands, 1 foot. or 1 hand, 2 feet. I realize this is not the teachings of todays time and maybe shouldnt even be brought up here, but nonetheless it is the way I do it.


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## Trees Company (Apr 6, 2004)

The bean bags are god for rope placement at the start. 

The only time I've seen my father us a rope and (not) free climb before getting tyed in was if the tree was to thick to hold on to. When needed he just makes a small coil and throws it.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2004)

*DBH to big to hug?*

What do you mean to big to hold onto?

What do you mean free climb?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: DBH to big to hug?*



> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *What do you mean to big to hold onto?
> 
> What do you mean free climb? *



His Dad's a gaffer. It don't hurt the trees! 

I use a throwbag on almost every ascention.

Another good way to traverce to another stem/tree is to make a monkey fist on oyur tail, and use it as a jamknot in a tight crotch. The use a prussik or ascender to transfer over and clear the MF.

It is a PITA if the knot slips out when your almost there


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## murphy4trees (Apr 6, 2004)

I think the main reason why spiking is so damaging to trees is becasue each wound is compartmentalized... All that compartmentalization interferes with the normal flow of the tree....
Anyone know the science on this???


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 6, 2004)

Not just the normal flow, but the reserves for the immidiate area. walls 1,2 and 3 need to chemically alter, and wall 4 is the rapid regrowth to enclose the wound.

These wounds being in long areas with little or no photosynthetic material have very little local reserve to start with.


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## rahtreelimbs (Apr 6, 2004)

I just got got to reading this thread. I spend too much time over on the chainsaw forum. 

I was told that what separates them men from the boys in this industry are the ones that can prune properly. Meaning that when you prune correctly you are not wearing spikes. In order to get thru a tree without spikes you have to learn how to climb. In other words, if you can climb without spikes chances are you can be pretty good on removals with them. Hope this made sense.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 6, 2004)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JonnyHart 
Oh yeah, what trees handle spike trimming best? 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> _Originally posted by netree _
> *None. That's why it's FROWNED upon.
> 
> 
> *


Call me crazy, but I can think of a couple of instances where climbing with spikes for pruning is acceptable.
1) If the tree's bark is incredibly thick and would keep the spike from reaching the cambium.
2) If spiking is the safest way to climb it, after considering *all* other options.

How hypocritical it would be to prune a tree poorly without spikes and say it was professional because no spikes were used. Essentially, don't use spikes to prune, but don't miss the greater picture and be sure the actually pruning being performed is properly done.


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## NeTree (Apr 6, 2004)

Incorrect as usual, Nick.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *quote:
> -
> 1) If the tree's bark is incredibly thick and would keep the spike from reaching the cambium.
> *



What about Phelogen Nick? That is living tissue.



> How hypocritical it would be to prune a tree poorly without spikes and say it was professional because no spikes were used. Essentially, don't use spikes to prune, but don't miss the greater picture and be sure the actually pruning being performed is properly done.



I think that the point is moot, how can it be proper pruning if you are wounding the tree with fgaffs?

If you climb without gaffs and just od a raise and gut, then your still just a hack anyways.

I've worked trees where it would have been way easier to have put gaffs on, to get out to do the work properly. Should I have done so and saved the company I was workign for some more money? Not I!


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## NeTree (Apr 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *
> 2) If spiking is the safest way to climb it, after considering all other options.
> 
> *



That pertains to the safety of the climber, not what's best for the tree itself. Go back and read the question.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 6, 2004)

Something tells me these guys ain't trimming trees "poorly without spikes" Nick.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2004)

> netree Incorrect as usual, Nick.



Hey, I appreciate the baseless bashing. Always nice to get here when voicing an opinion.



> netree Go back and read the question.



I re-read the original question which asked if he's an inconsiderate jerk for spiking. I was not changing the subject.

I'll start at the top, rather, the outside. The outermost layer of a tree's trunk or branch system is called phellem, produced to the outside by the phellogen zone. The phellem becomes functional upon death. The phellogen is protected by the phellem and remains living to continue to produce the bark we see. I'm taking this directly from Dr. Alex Shigo's landmark book, *A New Tree Biology*.

My direct interpretation of that would lead me to believe that if the phellem layer is thick enough, spurs could be jabbed into a tree without touching the living phellogen layer (I referred to it in my inital post as cambium, bark cambium). I remember hearing John Hendricksen talk about his brother who was spiking a tree because the bark was so thick, it was standard operating procedure to do so.

So to summarize the defense of my first point, if the bark is thick enough, spurs can be used without reaching the phellogen.



> netree That pertains to the safety of the climber, not what's best for the tree itself.


Yes to the first part; no to the second. We choose climbing practices based on the safety for the climber all the time. That's my point, if there is no safer way, let's not put the person in danger. I say so also from a legal defense viewpoint. What would you say to the jury if a person died removing a dangerous hanger because spurs were immediately ruled out.



> JonnyHart Something tells me these guys ain't trimming trees "poorly without spikes" Nick.


People climb without friction savers all the time. People make bad cuts all the time. I make bad cuts all the time. My point is that we have armchair arborists sitting around saying that spurs are bad without looking at any exceptions. Saying topping is bad without looking at any exceptions.

Trees are living, dynamic, unique, incredible beings. I would dare make a hard and fast rule to such things. Yet, urban trees are viewed as a resource and service to people, are they not? We quantify them in terms of energy savings to buildings and pleasant patio shade. We prune to let light in so grass can grow better. Don't you think such unnecessary pruning, from the tree's perspective, as raising limbs for clearance is detrimental to the tree? Of course it is. JPS, you agreed by saying, "If you climb without gaffs and just [do] a raise and gut, then your still just a hack anyways."

So why fuss over a few wounds from a set of spurs to remove a hazardous hanger? Lions tailing, clearance pruning, sail-effect pruning, and crown reduction pruning are the major wound inflicters! Don't kid yourself! It's far easier to close over a small wound than a large wound. 

I'm not advocating the use of spurs for pruning. I'm challenging this automatic spurs-out-for-all-but-removals thinking. Challenge me back, but don't bash me.


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## igetbisy (Apr 7, 2004)

Challenge me back, but don't bash me.

Yeah, I'm jumpin' on your bandwagon nick, I think the only problem here is going to be getting alot of our fellow A.S. addicts
to be able to differientiate between challenge and bash, and trying to learn by means of understanding different peoples ideas, with an open mind, rather than immediately expecting themselves to automatically have to define right/wrong, and then warship their primary teachings. heck, the way the tree care industry is evolving, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that we've discovered that spiking trees is good for them next week.
well, it would surprise me a little, but i think you could see my point.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 7, 2004)

There's a good point now I get bisey.

Probably never before in the history of mankind has such a informational exchange existed for trees,.


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## NeTree (Apr 7, 2004)

Nick, get rid of the book and spend 20 or so years in the REAL world.

The question asked was:

Originally posted by JonnyHart 
Oh yeah, what trees handle spike trimming best? 

Just because Shigo is the most published doesn't make him the bottom line. I've noticed your constant quotes from his books, and I have to wonder... do you know anything that DIDN'T come from his book?


Baseless bashing? Far from it. I have plenty of basis to bash you, aside from just not liking you.


"My direct interpretation of that would lead me to believe that if the phellem layer is thick enough, spurs could be jabbed into a tree without touching the living phellogen layer (I referred to it in my inital post as cambium, bark cambium). I remember hearing John Hendricksen talk about his brother who was spiking a tree because the bark was so thick, it was standard operating procedure to do so.

So to summarize the defense of my first point, if the bark is thick enough, spurs can be used without reaching the phellogen."

For one, being SOP doesn't mean it's good for the tree, even if you're not penetrating relatively deep.

and...
JonnyHart isn't going to be climbing trees big enough to have bark like that in HIS area, any more than I'm going to be climbing 250' tall redwoods in mine. And after all, isn't THAT kinda relevant?



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
netree That pertains to the safety of the climber, not what's best for the tree itself. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nick:
"Yes to the first part; no to the second. We choose climbing practices based on the safety for the climber all the time. That's my point, if there is no safer way, let's not put the person in danger"

You just re-inforced the first part- it's still not what's best for the tree. It's ALL about the safety of the climber.


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## igetbisy (Apr 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *There's a good point now I get bisey.
> 
> Probably never before in the history of mankind has such a informational exchange existed for trees,. *



Just out of curiosity, it doesn't bother me either way, but was there sarchasm in that post?


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 7, 2004)

Sarcasm? I didn't get that. 


Climbing with or without spurs are BOTH an art that is not easily mastered. You might think you can do it, until you see a true pro at work. Or YOU may be the pro.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 7, 2004)

Hardcore NEtree.
I get bisey no way bro. Where else can a pic of a tree we need to fix or a tree we took down get viewed by other folks who makin a living doing the same exact thing.

In groups, nations, and efforts insanity is the rule


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2004)

> So to summarize the defense of my first point, if the bark is thick enough, spurs can be used without reaching the phellogen.



So how do you determine if the bark is thick enough? Those people who I know using this excuse will assume by species that the it is OK.

Untill I see a peer reveiwed article that states that there are species with bark thick enough to gaff, I'll not use that argument any more.



> So why fuss over a few wounds from a set of spurs to remove a hazardous hanger? Lions tailing, clearance pruning, sail-effect pruning, and crown reduction pruning are the major wound inflicters! Don't kid yourself! It's far easier to close over a small wound than a large wound.



The argument that pruning is wounding has been agreed to on many occasions. It is the nature and location of the wounding that causes the problems. To put NTP cuts on par with gaff wounds only plays into the hack argument. 

There will allways be an exception to the general rule, that is a given. If there is a delineing tree that we need to reduce or remove some latterals on, and it is on a schedule for removal in a few years, I might concider using gaffs if it is eaiser and safer.





> We prune to let light in so grass can grow better. Don't you think such unnecessary pruning, from the tree's perspective, as raising limbs for clearance is detrimental to the tree? Of course it is. JPS, you agreed by saying, "If you climb without gaffs and just [do] a raise and gut, then your still just a hack anyways."



I've said for years that we are specialized property maintinance technicians. The better ones will try to resolve the trees "needs" with the needs and wants of the owner.



> My point is that we have armchair arborists sitting around saying that spurs are bad without looking at any exceptions. Saying topping is bad without looking at any exceptions.



I dont have any arms on my chair, and I've seen cankers in bark from gaffes used several years prior. I've also seen marks where they've closed up rather well. My view is that you cannot tell, and it is improper, needless wounding.

When is topping good? That is another thread you can start if you wish the debate.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2004)

JPS, I hashed out topping already, but I'd be up for it anytime.

But you agree with me on the principle I'm trying to make, though. And I think it's reasonable. This winter, I saved a tree by cutting out the neighboring tree that had fallen into it. To cut out the hangers, I had to spike because there was no bucket access (plus I don't have a bucket truck at school) and because there were no other tie-in points.

I'm not arguing that wounding is good for trees. You all know that. I'm saying we have to take the science we know and the science we don't with the present circumstances we face and make an intelligent decision. Hard and fast rules should be questioned.

And Shigo? And my age? And my posts? And my personality? Welcome to my ignore list. You've got lots of great company.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2004)

I've said it before, there is almost allways a better way to do the work then to gaff.


Some people give up too quick.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2004)

Right, but my posts were focusing on the those occasions that do not fall under almost always.

Curious how some people want real world experience, others want peer-reviewed articles, and still others just want to push people's buttons. I think the best is to package research with application and present it in an audience-driven way. Too bad there are 4+ primary audiences on this site. Reminds me of my favorite game show, You Can't Win.

 I'm out for a Patriot Act Debate between the ACLU and the Feds.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *
> Curious how some people want real world experience, others want peer-reviewed articles,*



I'd want the peer reveiw by experianced people, there are many experianced people in acedimia.


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## NeTree (Apr 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *
> 
> And Shigo? And my age? And my posts? And my personality? Welcome to my ignore list. You've got lots of great company. *



Break my ????ing heart.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 7, 2004)

Ya'll need to sit down and split a six-pack and some stinky dank!


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## NeTree (Apr 7, 2004)

Buy a lotto ticket.




You'd have better odds.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2004)

I'll have one of those barley pops, but you can bogart that joint my friend. Pass it away from meeeee.


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## JonnyHart (Apr 7, 2004)

Hey all right!  just when I thought nobody cared about my thread anymore, I get another whole page. Thanks for all advice, thats all I wanted out of this, not to start WWIII. Far be it from me to bash a CA, but you gotta cool it with the veteran climbers Nickrosis. If you're nice to them maybe they can teach ya something you won't learn in a book. No offense, but at 22yrs old, you don't know it all bud. Anyways, I still ain't done a spikeless trim yet, gotta get off my butt and order some high speed gizmos from Sherrill.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 7, 2004)

I Am with JPS on this one...
I can vaguely remember one or two trees that wouyld have needed gaffs to prune in 20 years of treework and plenty of storm work... And that thick bark argument ... a bunch of hu-ha...
Even if the bark is plenty thick on the trunk, by the time you get to the pruning cuts, it ain't that think anymore..

And that "there are no TIPs" excuse is primarily used by those that lack the climbing skills to get where the cuts are.. I'd rather leave a bunch of broken up hangers than spike a tree... I won't say that I Am a great tree climber by any means, but I'll use someone like Big Jon before I'll ever spike a prune..
the only tree that I ever spiked that is still alive is a big Chinese Elm that was supposed to be a removal... I got the top out and the customer came and told me she changed her mind and that I should leave the tree. So that tree got spiked and topped.
I told her not to tell anybody I did the work.. Well surprisingly enough... that was back in the late 80's and the tree has had zero maintenance since then and it looks pretty good today...


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## NeTree (Apr 7, 2004)

Gee Murph, sounds like that's what she wanted to begin with??

Jonny,

Dr. Shigo is indeed an excellent tree biologist. However much he's considered the foremost authority (arguably by some), that don't change the fact that he's never worked as a climber that I can find any reference of- even in his own profile.

Higher education without experience is useless. I can sit here and quote medical texts all day long... doesn't make me an MD, does it?

Some kids think they know everything. That's alright- I was young, dumb, and in college once too.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JonnyHart _
> *Far be it from me to bash a CA, but you gotta cool it with the veteran climbers Nickrosis. If you're nice to them maybe they can teach ya something you won't learn in a book. No offense, but at 22yrs old, you don't know it all bud. *


I far from know it all. But I do enjoy learning.

If you look back, I offered an opinion and ended up getting bashed back. I'm relaxed now because I can't see anything that people on my ignore list write.

About book learning, I don't read books. I get most of my information from talking to respectable professionals in the industry like Shigo, Dunlap, Chisholm, Phillips, Blair, Noonan, Miller and others. These people have years of experience, and I trust what they have to say. At the same time, they will tell you to test what you hear. Shigo often prefaces his talks by saying "don't believe anything I tell" and encourages you to try it out before you believe it. That's wisdom.

I respect people who count experience in years spent learning, not years spent doing.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 9, 2004)

Good debate, I'm really gald folks like Nick is around. I need to learn to speak in his tounge and JPS, and NEtree's with MB's vision And it is a different language. It is my purpose here to not only learn some better skills but to learn how to educate a large populous about trees. To represent trees to a greater audience than joe home owner alone. I think we should all be working for tree ordinances in our respective townships. Who better to represent than us. Its only political if you let it be. And to do that we MUST speak a tree language even thou it is just being developed. It is all we have we must influence it we must have our say in what is taught for generations to come. This is why we're all here.
Fire up that phatty MB


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 9, 2004)

*Wasn't there, didn't do it!*


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 9, 2004)

He was out back with a blunt.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 9, 2004)

Blunts are the nuttiest fad since 'sagging'.

Who wants to smoke a freaking cigar?


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## Stumper (Apr 9, 2004)

Xtreme, I CANNOT work FOR tree ordinances. I believe deeply in individual freedom. Tree ordinances-no matter how well intentioned or well formulated are inherently at odds with freedom (Okay-I have no gripe with an ordinance against defacing public trees but anything intended to mandate what happens on private property is repugnant).


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## NeTree (Apr 9, 2004)

Ditto.

The gov-mint tells us what to do enough already.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 9, 2004)

I don't speak Nick's language either...
What did Rocky say jokingly a year or so ago....
"better go to the ISA for that answer... we're just a bunch of dumb tree cutters"... 
Funny but true... then along comes a twenty something kid who has done his homework... spouting this and that book knowledge info... It's easy to pass him off as just a bookworm... but maybe a few including me must realize how little knowledge of tree biology we posses... enough on the job experience to do takedowns that few people on the planet would probably attempt... and that may be fine... but it is a limmitted world, and career...


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 9, 2004)

I think Carl's gonna be the next big thing... jes let him simmer for a decade or so...

 




Iffen he don't cut his hand off with his Silky!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 9, 2004)

But, as I posted that, I remember him going off on Nick... with some company to boot.

The two of them outta start a bizzzz....


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## ORclimber (Apr 9, 2004)

I agree with Nick. there are times when spiking is a viable option. I've lowered my hooks out of many thick barked Doug-firs after reaching the lowest limbs. It's much easier to ascend a fat tree SRT than on hooks, but sometimes.... Another problem is fatty trees with skinny little dead limbs thicker than the hair on a dogs back, grand firs often fit that bill. And I don't feel bad about spiking firewood in training. 

There are oodles of fat Doug-firs around here that have been spiked numerous times over the last 30 years, many topped too. Not the end of the world.

Spiking should be avoided, and mostly can be. But there are exceptions to every rule.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ORclimber _
> thick barked Doug-firs after reaching the lowest limbs.



can yopu guarentee you are not exposing the pholgen to disease? It is better then breaking the cambium and damamging the xylem, but canker can make it just as bad.




> And I don't feel bad about spiking firewood in training.



I would say, only if the removal is scheduled in the near future



> There are oodles of fat Doug-firs around here that have been spiked numerous times over the last 30 years, many topped too. Not the end of the world.
> 
> Spiking should be avoided, and mostly can be. But there are exceptions to every rule.



Spiking a trim should be the last resort to any other form of entry. Anything less will validate the hacks argument that it's not all that bad.


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## ORclimber (Apr 10, 2004)

I only do it when I can't set a line over a good branch. It's a safety thing. Hopefully it will be overcome someday. It's like the palm tree thing except you're saying spikes will hurt D-fir bark. I have a very limited understanding of tree diseases, but am actively working on it.

When I did line clearance the only time I trimmed in spikes(Besides big firs) was in farmers fields on trees of little value(hawthornes and native ash next to the lines). If the trees were to die(which I doubt) they would be used for firewood, and wouldn't be in the lines anymore .


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ORclimber _
> I only do it when I can't set a line over a good branch. It's a safety thing. Hopefully it will be overcome someday. It's like the palm tree thing except you're saying spikes will hurt D-fir bark. I have a very limited understanding of tree diseases, but am actively working on it.



I'm not saying it will, but that it may stress the tree. The people who try to justify it are saying that the bark is thick enough on an assumption. I want some sort of proof other then ancidotal evidance.

In Nick's rhetoric he alternates between sciecnce and anicdotal statements. "Shigo says" then "John Hendricksons brother says". 



> When I did line clearance the only time I trimmed in spikes(Besides big firs) was in farmers fields on trees of little value(hawthornes and native ash next to the lines). If the trees were to die(which I doubt) they would be used for firewood, and wouldn't be in the lines anymore . [/B]



One of the reasons there is dispensation in ANSI for rural line work, but IMO one fo the reasons ROW's are initial inroads of certain diseases.


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## ORclimber (Apr 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *. I want some sort of proof other then ancidotal evidance.
> *



Where's your proof? I'd rather not prune anything in hooks. But, on the rare occasions I can't set a rope in a limb that will hold me, the hooks come out.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Xtreme, I CANNOT work FOR tree ordinances. I believe deeply in individual freedom. Tree ordinances-no matter how well intentioned or well formulated are inherently at odds with freedom (Okay-I have no gripe with an ordinance against defacing public trees but anything intended to mandate what happens on private property is repugnant). *



nice post stumpie,
perhaps your right


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## Nickrosis (Apr 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *In Nick's rhetoric he alternates between sciecnce and anicdotal statements. "Shigo says" then "John Hendricksons brother says". *


Where's the alternation? The points where meant to build on each other. And you're misquoting me about his brother.

My point from Shigo is that the cambium is on the inside. My point from JH _about_ his brother was that it's practiced where the bark is incredibly thick and the other ascension techniques are ruled out. So, if the bark is incredibly thick, the cambium is inside of it, or if other methods are ruled out, there are a couple of instances where spiking is the best thing.

Some proof
*Bark thickness increases as a function of stem diameter:
http://sres.anu.edu.au/associated/mensuration/gr/barkthic.gif
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cach...ihrmp/oak29.htm+bark+thickness&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

*US Forest Service research:
http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rn/rn_so210.pdf

My point is that some trees may have bark that is thick enough. I keep thinking of northwestern trees that grow to enormous diameters and wouldn't have a single bit of living parenchyma disturbed by a spike that digs in half an inch to the inside.

And finally, if you need the spikes to climb the tree, to remove a hazard without removing the tree, whatever. Then I see the value of it. I'm not thinking of a fine pruning job in a front yard. I'm thinking of this winter when I had no choice but to spike a tree that I was not removing. It had the top of its only neighbor lodged in a crotch. Spiked up to that crotch, got above it, roped in and cut out the other top. Then I dropped back down on the line.

Point is, the tree was in far better shape in the end; I had inflicted some wounds, but I saved it in the long run. That's the only time I've spiked when pruning. That's an acceptable scenario in my mind.


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## NeTree (Apr 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> * I'm thinking of this winter when I had no choice but to spike a tree that I was not removing. It had the top of its only neighbor lodged in a crotch. Spiked up to that crotch, got above it, roped in and cut out the other top. Then I dropped back down on the line.
> 
> *



Why couldn't you get there without spikes?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 11, 2004)

JPS has a good handle on wounding, I agree whole heartedly. If you look at the way bark cambium is oriented it often comes very close to the surface of even the thickest bark, particularly in the furrows where a climber is likely to place his spike.


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## NeTree (Apr 12, 2004)

All this talk about spiking reminds me of someone we all know and love...

"Spikes do not hurt your tree if you have the right kind and someone who knows how to use them. Whoever invented bucket trucks probably started the rumor that spikes hurt your trees so they could eliminate the little man because they (the tree services that bought the trucks) had to make a killing (alot of money) in order to pay for the equipment. There is a big difference in tree spikes and pole spikes. those who use pole spikes usually scar the heck out of the trees, I'll be honest I have yet to see a tree die from being spiked the tree usually takes care of itself.

The companies that say don't spike also say don't top a tree. Well why do they cut limbs off trees? That would have the same effect on a tree as topping and honestly they still top trees they just call it pruning/crown reduction and take a little off the top. Then it grows back quickly and has to be topped uh I mean (pruned) sooner (wink wink). "


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 12, 2004)

THAT guy was a idjet!


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## NeTree (Apr 12, 2004)

Yeah, I know. But he sure is good for a laugh, isn't he?


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## Guy Meilleur (Apr 12, 2004)

When I first saw the title of this thread, I assumed it was about buying spikes so I ignored it...Hah!

Nick was right about the phellogen, aka cork cambium, aka bark cambium. Trouble is, trees are VERY different in where these cells are. Dr. Bill Chaney from purdue has been presenting on bark at different ISA mtgs, midatlantic, minnesota etc. the past year--great info, ya shoulda seen it by now!

Very few species have thick enough layers of cork cells to hold up spikes without damaging phellogen. Some trees have continuous phellogen, which would be worse for disease transmission. Some have discontinuous splotches of phellogen. Some have none at all! So those who bash Nick on the little-knowledge-is-a-dangerous-thing basis may have some grounds, but no reason to be rude. What he quoted was not false, just incomplete.

Our loblolly pines in NC have very thick bark, but to get spikes in securely you have to jam them deep. We also have beetles that love to have the hard work done for them by spikes. they enter those wounds and have a short route to the vascular cambium.

Practically, I climb most trees with monkeyfist and polesaw, but the bigshot is used when needed. I've gone back to oaks I've spiked short sections of, and I do not like what I see in some of those wounds. There'll be another day when I have to spike a prune, but I'll do all i can to avoid it.

Nick's right about certain rare cases. "never" and "incorrect" are dogmatic words that do not fit all the diverse challenges trees pose for us. As useful as this forum may be, only jps and nick consistently based their posts on science. It's best to crack open a book now and then if you want to understand something. "Bark" by Prance and Prance would be a start.


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## Stumper (Apr 12, 2004)

Okay Guy-but I can't help but wonder if all Prance and Prance do is dance around the subject!


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## Abbershay (Oct 28, 2004)

You know the the truth is, if trimming you should never even climb a tree if you are conserned , you will be stressing bark and branches also you will likely cut more than needed . Use a lift . Lifts are made small enough now that you can even get them in the back yard via the gate . This along with pole pruners a good tree trimmer doesnt even have to touch the tree in most cases.


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## rumination (Oct 28, 2004)

Here we go again.


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## Abbershay (Oct 28, 2004)

with todays tools climbing isnt as important as it once was, sure many may not have the money to buy the equipment that is available but if they really are(truely) as conserned for the trees as they claim to be them there is no reason they should have to climb.


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## Abbershay (Oct 28, 2004)

i didnt say truck there are many lifts and other methods other than trucks.

also i said most cases not all.


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## Nathan Wreyford (Oct 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rborist1 _
> * alot of back yards can only be accessed through the house, or............. *



The courtyard at the tax office today was only accessable through the building.


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## Abbershay (Oct 28, 2004)

You know the the truth is, if trimming you should never even climb a tree if you are conserned , you will be stressing bark and branches also you will likely cut more than needed . Use a lift . Lifts are made small enough now that you can even get them in the back yard via the gate . This along with pole pruners a good tree trimmer doesnt even have to touch the tree in most cases


here it is.


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

Hello, I have red this whole thread and as my first day of being on the forums, i would like to introduce myself.
I am 16 years old, live in central Florida, and have been climbing for 2 years, I first got intrested in climbing when i was in 8th grade, I got kicked out of school and decided i didn't want to go back, so I got asked to work for a friend one day who is a climber, i was dragging climbs and watching him climb at the same time, it just seemed so interesting, so after about 6 months i decided to start, I knew alot of my cuts on the ground so i got him to teach me how to climb (he uses spikes). I spent a year learning from him and then went on my own, I'm not that great yet but am learning everyday, infacxt I just trimmed up 25 cabbage palms today and cut down a tree leaning far over a apartment yesterday, I use spikes and after reading this forum , never knew there was any other way of doing it, now after reading I can understand a little more of why not to use them , but I have a few questions, there is alot of times when i cant get my trowball into a limb because of all the deadwood in it or its really thick inside and cant get ANY clear shots at a good limb, how would I go about getting up it? Any information you could give would be appreciated because im only into this 2 years and love every moment of it. I'm always watching other climbs to see how they climb differently then me and learn new things every day. TY for taking the time to read this and please reply.


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## Husky288XP (Nov 2, 2004)

Hmmmm.....

There seems to be a trend with all of these young "climbers."

Well Florida 16 welcome aboard, and remember that education is a good thing, don't discount it.


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky288XP _
> *Hmmmm.....
> 
> There seems to be a trend with all of these young "climbers."
> ...




Hmmmmmmmm.....Steve......I can think of 3....can you????


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## Husky288XP (Nov 2, 2004)

Oh yes, but one I am trying to convert.


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RAHTREELIMBS _
> *Hmmmmmmmm.....Steve......I can think of 3....can you???? *



Hey, I can't help I'm young but you have to start somewhere right?


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## Stumper (Nov 2, 2004)

Welcome FL16, Go back to school (night school or something is cool but get that stupid High School diploma). When you can't get your throwball where you want it.... Use a BigShot or set a ladder and then go up via a secured free climb. Use a Big Shot. Set a line where you can with a polesaw or by throwing, then advance your line once you are in the tree until you get to the prime tie in point. Use a BigShot.

BTW did I mention using a BigShot.


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Start with going back to school. It's THAT important. *



And *KEEP* going. A college education is important nowadays. Hindsight being what it is, I wish I would have gone!!!


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm not worried about school right now, I will get my G.E.D. when I turn 18, and maybe goto college, but for right now I want to learn everything I can about tree work because it's what I want to do for the rest of my life...


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Florida16 _
> *But for right now I want to learn everything I can about tree work because it's what I want to do for the rest of my life... *




Just remember that may change!!!

Not trying to discourage you but just tell it like it is!


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## Husky288XP (Nov 2, 2004)

Trust me friend, somedays tree work is not the greatest gig in town. I have a good friend that is 53 and climbs everyday; not because he wants to, he has to in order to survive. The man doesn't even have a H.S. Diploma, and struggles to make ends meet.


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

No, I can't work inside an office, or inside a building for that matter. (8-10 hours inside any building other than sleeping and I go crazy, no matter how old I get) So that narrows it down to outside work (duh) and I don't like or everr WILL like , roofing, framing, asphalt , construction, locating, mechanics so I'm pretty much gonna be a tree climber....


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## Husky288XP (Nov 2, 2004)

Some High Schools even have a horticulture or arboriculture program to get you started.


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## Husky288XP (Nov 2, 2004)

Netree, I do not think this kid can live up to be worthy enough to be called an Arborist.


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *What decent college will accept you with just a GED?
> 
> Also, there's more to tree work than simply climbing up and cutting stuff. To be good at it, you have to be educated.
> ...



I haven't ruled it out, but I won't EVER go back to a real school, the most I want is a G.E.D. Anyways, I'm here to learn EVERYTHING I can about climbing, so where should I start, oh yeah, whats the basic equipment you need to have to climb w/o spikes?

Also do you think I should still climb with spikes for a while until I get the true feeling for - walking limbs, my cuts, felling, roping techniques, and proper hinges?

Also what knot do you all use for repelling? I have a pretty good one but it sometimes tightens up when I use it for a good while and have to lossen it back up again.


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky288XP _
> *Netree, I do not think this kid can live up to be worthy enough to be called an Arborist. *



Why not?


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 2, 2004)

You should start off by working *for/with* a good tree co. and good climber rather than trying to go it alone. If you do a search you will find a wealth of info on this subject. A rehash of all this is to early, especially since winter hasn't even set in......


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

let me correct myself, my dad started a tree business for me, because he's 45 and is gonna be retiring soon, so in about 5 years the whole business will be mine, he started it 2 years ago when i started climbing. We are doing well, we have a bobcat,F350 Diesel 4x4 flatbed with a gooseneck hitch, 3 trailers (none are dump trailers though >8( ) 3 climbing echo saws - 2 cs 300's and 1 sc340, husqvarna with 36 inch blade, climbing saddle and tree spikes , 1 bull rope, and 3 climbing ropes. Thats why I want to be the best I can be so when I own the company I will have everything set.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Florida16 _
> *let me correct myself, my dad started a tree business for me, because he's 45 and is gonna be retiring soon, so in about 5 years the whole business will be mine, he started it 2 years ago when i started climbing. We are doing well, we have a bobcat,F350 Diesel 4x4 flatbed with a gooseneck hitch, 3 trailers (none are dump trailers though >8( ) 3 climbing echo saws - 2 cs 300's and 1 sc340, husqvarna with 36 inch blade, climbing saddle and tree spikes , 1 bull rope, and 3 climbing ropes. Thats why I want to be the best I can be so when I own the company I will have everything set. *




Haha!!! Rock and roll, little brother! But, _CYA!!!_

And get Pops up on in here.


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## Nickrosis (Nov 2, 2004)

Firecracker thread with the tension I was hoping for. 

If you can sit on your computer and type away for hours, you can handle sitting in school. I went back for the girls, you can go back for that and a diploma.

I'll provide the regular recommendation: buy the Tree Climber's Companion, Second Edition, by Jeff Jepson and illustrated by Bryan Kotwica. $15 well spent.

You can buy it at www.wtsherrill.com

Item: 16217
Description: Tree Climbers Companion/2nd Edition / Jeff Jepson
This compact field reference and training manual for tree climbers is the ideal partner for all tree workers. Thanks to the illustrative talents of Illinois certified arborist Bryan Kotwika, writer Jeff Jepson is able to provide you, the reader, with easy to understand and applicable techniques. This 104 page book includes specific information on several climbing techniques, throwbag use, a variety of knots and hitches, tricks of the trade, use of friction savers, rope care, ascenders and more. Over 200 easy-to-follow illustrations expand comprehension.


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## Florida16 (Nov 2, 2004)

no we dont have a chipper, for the simple fact that we have nothing to blow the chips into, we have a 5 acre place we dump and on the weedends we get a case and a bottle and sit around the fire ^.^, Yes I am very happy to learn from all of you, also netree, I went to your site and masterblasters, they both are great I will be listening to everything u 2 say because you truely know the art of the tree...

Well, goodnight, ima goto bed, got a 45 foot Live Oak to take down tomarrow, g'night!

I'll be on tomarrow


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## TreemanFJR (Nov 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Florida16 _
> *\ on the weedends we get a case and a bottle and sit around the fire ^.^,
> *




woaaaaaaaaaahh your 16???

well what the hell...

Liquor gets ya quicker buddy!


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 2, 2004)

I never did that... :angel:


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## Treeman14 (Nov 2, 2004)

School wasn't very important to me when I was sixteen.

Now, at 43, I'm back in college at night and looking forward to graduating in a couple of years. Its challenging, but the scenery is nice.  

Education is good.

Ignorance is not good.


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## glens (Nov 2, 2004)

Never did <i>what</i> Butch?&nbsp; Stereotype someone?&nbsp; LOL


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## Nickrosis (Nov 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Treeman14 _
> *Now, at 43, I'm back in college at night and looking forward to graduating in a couple of years. Its challenging, but the scenery is nice.  *


There are a lot of 40+ students in my classes. Sometimes I think they're back for the education, but I know otherwise. It's been a good experience for me. What program are you in, Brett?


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## pbtree (Nov 3, 2004)

Has anyone mentioned "going back to school?"

For one thing, it will show determination and the willingness to work - these characteristics will carry through to how you climb and or run your own business.

For another, there are enough ignorant butchers out there climbing already, and we certainly would love to have another well educated one join the ranks!  

Not that I have preached for a bit - welcome to the site. Read, ask, enjoy, but most importantly, LEARN!


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## Florida16 (Nov 3, 2004)

the F350 only has a 12 foot bed so even if it was a dump bed it wouldnt haul much. I may go back to school doing night classes or something but I want to continue to clim,b everyday. Also yes we have $750,000 in insurance


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## Florida16 (Nov 3, 2004)

nah, I think we are just gonna get a gooseneck dump trailer for now, so when I get a truck, I can turn it into a dump bed and he can use the trailer, see he has this thing with his truck, its in really really nice condition and he dont wanna mess it up.
Go figure


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## Florida16 (Nov 3, 2004)

IDK, for 16 I'm doing pretty good I would say. My papa is payin' me $150 a day to climb. Although I WOULD do it for free, just so I can get ther experience and all that I need, it is nice to have a paycheck at the end of the week.
I don't climb because I see $ signs in the tree, I climb because its what I love to do and it's more than just a game...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Florida16 _
> *I haven't ruled it out, but I won't EVER go back to a real school, the most I want is a G.E.D. Anyways, I'm here to learn EVERYTHING I can about climbing, so where should I start, oh yeah, whats the basic equipment you need to have to climb w/o spikes?
> 
> *You work the tree, but have to talk to people to get paid, even sell job; GED won't always cut it. Also, this is about growth of self and industry, research and learning skills are important over the next 40 years to catch up and keep up.*
> ...





> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *Learning to climb is a "hands on" experience. Arboristsite is a great source for information about climbing but almost everything we discuss here if misapplied can result in serious injury or death. Serious injury or death. (yes, I repeated myself)-Dan Nelson *


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

i got to climb a 50 foot hickory and remove it today, its right over a house so i'll have to hitch it all down, but i never have been 50 foot in a tree, any suggestions on getting used to the height?


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 4, 2004)

It's a 'lil late to be asking that now, eh?


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

tell me about it, I have to go do it in an hour...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 4, 2004)

Always visualize and act like you are 5000' up on the side of a shear cliff; tie in accordingly. Follow same plan at 20' as 100'.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 4, 2004)

Falling or walking?


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

Well, I went and did the Hickory, If that's what you want to call it. 


Here's my story...

I get to the job site, get my gear on and climb up to the top of one limb. there are 3 50 feet limbs in all. I get to the top and remove about 5 limbs. Now I am at the crown, the wind starts picking up and I start to get a little jittery. I cut some hanging limbs and now its just me and the crown. Wind speed picks up again by then, probably about 5 MPH or more. I look at the fork where the top 2 limbs come off. It looks like its cracked a little because of the hurricanes. I get worried because they are over a house, the winds are scaring me and I don't want to climb any higher because of the cracks.
So what do I do?
Of course I come down.
On my way down there was 1 limb left about 30-35 feet and they told me to cut it because I was already on my way down. I tell them I cant just cut it that it needs to be roped out, they tell me to cut it anyways and I say "No, it will hit the house" they said no it won't just cut it. So I cut it, it hits the house and they get mad. So I get to the ground and grab all my equipment and take off walking down the road. I walked 2 miles and called my dad to pick me up.

The End.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 4, 2004)

Well, it is always good to still be able to walk at the end of the day....

Everyone starts somewhere; they do get more 'floppy' when you destabilize the top from it's regular pulls of weight.


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

As "Floppy" you mean when you take all the limbs off and there is just a stump 40 feet in the air, it tends to wabble?


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## geofore (Nov 4, 2004)

*What do I do?*

F16, if you trust it you can use a short piece of rope to tie the pieces together to hold the crack from spreading and climb up past the crack. The wind is a judgement call, too much wind get out of the tree. The limb over hanging the house, if you are tied in above let out some slack and walk out the limb, cut a small piece off (twig) and let it hit the house with as little damage as possible so the guys on the ground know what you're trying to tell them. Cut little pieces as you work your way back towards the trunk so you don't damage the roof or house. Cut little pieces you can throw clear by hand. You'll reach a point where you can cut the rest and miss the house. Sounds like you didn't have enough rope to do tricks in the tree today.You could after tying the cracked croutch together run a rope from the ground over the croutch and down to the tip of the limb over the house and have the groundguys pull the limb up off the house. Best to walk out the limb to cut a piece small enough they can handle it. Cut slow from unerneath up so they can pull it up and when you cut it loose it will swing into the trunk where they can lower it without hitting the house. Make sure you're tied in because the limb may try to brush you off as it heads for the trunk. Next time they tell you to just cut it loose, refuse to do it. Practicing bad habits is not a good thing. You are the climber, it's your call to make not theirs. You need to talk to the ground crew about how you're going to take the tree apart before you climb up so they know what you expect them to do for you once you're up there. You're the climber, you need to be in charge once you're in the tree.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 4, 2004)

Wow!


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## Stumper (Nov 4, 2004)

Hmmm...Was there a ground crew? Were the "they" the owners? Is Florida 16 genuine or a troll? Does Butch wear silk underwear? How many of us have walked from a job-2 miles? Would experience have prevented all these problems for Fl 16? Why wasn't dad on site? Is Erik married or living in sin?-Or both?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 4, 2004)

Tune in tomorrow and the next day, and the next to find out the answers to these and maybe more........

"AS the Chain Turns"


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## NeTree (Nov 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Is Erik married or living in sin?-Or both? *



Livin' in sin... and lovin' it.


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Hmmm...Was there a ground crew? Were the "they" the owners? Is Florida 16 genuine or a troll? Does Butch wear silk underwear? How many of us have walked from a job-2 miles? Would experience have prevented all these problems for Fl 16? Why wasn't dad on site? Is Erik married or living in sin?-Or both? *



Yes, there was a ground crew if that's what u want to call it, there was only 2 people , me and a friend, I said I would climb it and remove it for $200.oo and that I was only working outside of a company (no lisence or insurance) because he was a friend. I didn't trust him on the ground because i roped out a log before i got to the top to see if he was good at roping. He sucked, he didn't let the log drop any when I cut it and it almost came back and hit me. Thats why I didn't trust him 20 more feet up to help do the top of it, because he is inexperienced. If you are refering to me as a "Troll" which I'm guessing is a fake, your way wrong. I wanted to come to this forum because the people here seem like experts and I am only trying to learn as much as I can because I care very much for my job. I love to climb, I love to wake up in the morning and look forward to work, unlike most people in America who hate there jobs, I actually love mine and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about trees. Even when I am not at work I look at trees EVERYWHERE I am and try to plan/picture the way I would go about removing the tree or roping limbs out.
If the owner of the tree and the inexperienced groundcrew man was trying to tell you 10000000 different ways to do something they have never done before, you would get aggrevated also. I walked 2 miles because I called my dad from a general store and he was up the road about 5 miles and I didn't want the guy I was helping do the tree for to find me at the store, so I began to walk 5 miles to where my dad was to get a ride home, he met me at 2 , I would have walked 5 because I was so imbarrassed that I failed at something I knew so well that I would be able to do that I didn't want my friend to even see me , I never want to see him again, I not only let him down but I let myself down as well. 
As for experience preventing my problems, I don't know, you tell me I have been climbing for 2 years and have experience, I see now that I just might not have the experience I need yet to be 50' up roping limbs out over a house, if it was in the middle of a field it would be alot different because I wouldn't have to worry about hitting anything. I have learned alot today, knowing how to get up a tree is one thing, knowing what to do once your up there is a whole nother ball game.
My dad wasn't on the site because he has been working with me long enough to know that I won't climb or do anything in a tree that I don't feel safe or comfortable doing. Would it have mattered one way or another whether or not i did what I did today if he was there or not? Absolutely not, because I won't climb/cut anything I don't feel comfortable doing. So I hope that answered all of your questions above about me and anytime you feel like questioning my performance or my actions again, I'll readily be able to answer them, I'm no "Troll" I actually DO climb....


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 4, 2004)

Hey Chad, you just keep on keeping on. What ya got today was a taste of the BS that goes hand in hand with doing what ya love.

MasterBlaster here, and I got yur back!


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

hells yee


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## glens (Nov 4, 2004)

Think of a troll as a person who (often under a false identity) posts solely in order to incite knee-jerk responses.&nbsp; Since you're new here, and are seemingly quite good at posting exactly the type of stuff which causes people to react in the manner they do to trolls, it's not difficult for us to wonder about you and your motives.

I"m not accusing you of any trickery but I haven't exactly ruled it out yet, either.

Where I live, one doesn't need a license to do contract work so long as they aren't selling things for which they should be collecting sales tax.&nbsp; There is no tax on service work, so taking a tree down would not require a license.&nbsp; I'm not entirely sure that insurance is a legal obligation either, but that question should never arise; it's just plain foolish if not merely way too risky to put your future on the line like that for a couple bucks.

Some people may think you're here trolling because some of the stuff you're asking about is stuff that someone who's done the work for two years already should be acquainted with.&nbsp; I'm not saying "know everything about it", but "should have seen it at least once"..

If you don't know enough about "roping out a log" to instruct someone how you'd like them to do it, it would probably be a good idea to work on that a bit first with them while close to the ground, don't ya think?

If your friend was counting on you then you've let them down.&nbsp; If a cut you made caused any damage you should make arrangements with them to at least help pay it.&nbsp; It doesn't matter if they told you to do something you knew you shouldn't.&nbsp; That argument didn't work at Nuremberg either.&nbsp; You are responsible for your actions.

Glen


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## Florida16 (Nov 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by glens _
> *Think of a troll as a person who (often under a false identity) posts solely in order to incite knee-jerk responses.&nbsp; Since you're new here, and are seemingly quite good at posting exactly the type of stuff which causes people to react in the manner they do to trolls, it's not difficult for us to wonder about you and your motives.
> 
> I"m not accusing you of any trickery but I haven't exactly ruled it out yet, either.
> ...



I like I said, the only equipment I have used is a saddle,spikes,climbing rope and a chainsaw up in the tree, so all this other stuff is new to me, I was taught that's all I need in a tree. I guess once I learn it all, I will be able to teach the boy that taught me huh? Also I DID instruct the groundie how to do it, he's just to bullheaded to listen I guess, he's the type that thinks he "knows-it-all".


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## NeTree (Nov 4, 2004)

Just how much HAVE you climbed in the past 2 years?


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## Florida16 (Nov 5, 2004)

Apparently not enough...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 5, 2004)

Chill your jets young dude; take it all in; don't miss nothing.

Even if ya can't digest it now, capture it; cuz in 1,2,5 years or so; the pattern of things will start to and continue to make sense.

The collective experience, what happenned right every time; old words that ring true to what you saw etc. Pictures and memories in head that make it all make sense as the pattern becomes apparent. If anyone could do it, it'd be easy.



> *[Man:] I'm more than that, I know I am, at least, I think I must be.
> 
> [Inner Man:] There you go man, keep as cool as you can.
> Face piles, And piles, Of trials
> ...


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## Florida16 (Nov 5, 2004)

Hehe, I went to Vermeer today and spent like $500.oo on new equipment. I got 3 T-Shirts, 6 ball lock Petzl carabiners, 6 webbing slings, 1 plastic wedge, 1 4 lb metal wedge, a thing called a Zubat knife-thingy, a new saddle, new gaffs for my spikes and ordered some Geckos two climber.

Man, the Gecko Two climbers are bad-to-the-bone! Also that Zubat knife thing is RAZOR sharp and looked nice to have in a tree to cut small limbs in your way.

P.S. I also got that "The Tree Climber's Companion", you guys were right this book has it all!!!!!!!!


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

This one is pretty cool, too!


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## Derek (Nov 5, 2004)

*How much?*



> _Originally posted by Florida16 _
> *Hehe, I went to Vermeer today and spent like $500.oo on new equipment. I got 3 T-Shirts, 6 ball lock Petzl carabiners, 6 webbing slings, 1 plastic wedge, 1 4 lb metal wedge, a thing called a Zubat knife-thingy, a new saddle, new gaffs for my spikes and ordered some Geckos two climber.
> 
> Man, the Gecko Two climbers are bad-to-the-bone! Also that Zubat knife thing is RAZOR sharp and looked nice to have in a tree to cut small limbs in your way.
> ...




Morning Chad, Could you break down those prices for me?

And what sort of saddle?

Just to put you in OUR shoes for a minute.

All prices/guesses in AU$

Navaho boss C90 640.00
T2's w/chinch $1515.00
020 (MS200T) $1505.00
Petzl Gemmini P66 $168.00
Ball lock M18 $34.00
Rope starts from $10.00 per metre!

Sound like $500.00 US goes an awfull long way over there!

Whats on the T shirts?....Thanx Derek..

Ps Replacement gaffs 3' $90.00... Did ya get pole spikes to start with?
do you need to replace them allready?


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

Somebody in the states can't buy that stuff for ya, and just send it to ya?


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## Derek (Nov 5, 2004)

Sure Butch, NEXT TIME FOR SURE!

I was stressed/pushed for time when all ma gear got pinched, dident think i had the time to wait on postage and customs..

Turns out I had plenty of time...


I'll have a new Sherrills catolog comming soon (thanx Sean),

Aussie and I might combine postage on some things?

I'll prefer the wait to the exorbortant prices!


BTW, no good for me but Chad Might want to have a look...
2 hours to go on these.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3849513866&ssPageName=ADME:B:WN:US:1


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 5, 2004)

Think they say "Buckingham" on them?

i'd just have gotten 1 or 2 ball locks, maybe a few of other designs for rigging, speedline etc.

These aren't nice light aluminum, but have been very good. The steel makes for better throws etc. The gate doesn't have to be unlocked. In locking you don't have to screw in/out so much, if you learn to roll on the length of hand in smooth motion trying to open or close in 1 motion.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

I've never heard of Burgess. That's a different way to wear the pads, eh?


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)




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## Derek (Nov 5, 2004)

*"cheap as clips"*

Huh $5.00 each hey....

I got a 5 pack of these, for my drink bottle, holds a "rope bag"
Till I get to height lite little things only but still cost $52.50


WACK....


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## Derek (Nov 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Yeah... that's for working SOUTH of the equator. *




That was cruel and a compleatly unnessesary shot at me, but gee i LMAO...Thought it was just the way some climbers over there wore them....Yas seem to do lots of things on the "other side" over there! 


And WHO IS Mr Kingham any way (not lionking I hope)


Hah..Just checked it again...They changed it ....Go have a look now!


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## Derek (Nov 5, 2004)

*how sus?*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Oct-31-04 at 17:30:31 PST, seller added the following information:

Okay, my husband says I put the apparatus together incorrectly.....the strap does not go around the top (there is no top one included)......this one is the bottom strap......sorry for the confusion. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?? Blame the wife hey.....does She have the top strap somewhere?

Dog collars or the like?...Its in the pic....

Sure this isnt "jonno 1" again?


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## Derek (Nov 5, 2004)

*I hate ebay REVISITED*



> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Derek... look at the pads...
> 
> 
> ...




Eric I did .?.?.?What thar

And please do ....you crack me up!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 5, 2004)

A free Sherrill catalog is a fair amount of education, especially for the price.

A Samson rope catalog a fair amount too.

MyTreeLessons-Links and Respsects


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

Sherrill ROCKS when it comes to passing out good info. I was doing a lotta cut n pasting long before I ever got a computer!


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

It's a cool book, but I like Gerald's better.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

For those of ya'll who are not getting it, I cut out those cool Sherrill illustrations and taped em inside the opening pages...


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 5, 2004)

At least I won't lose em!


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## Stumper (Nov 5, 2004)

Fl16, Please take my series of questions as friendly. I do suspect a troll but if you are indeed genuine you have come to a great place to learn. My opinion, which of course isn't binding upon your family, is that your dad should be present when you are climbing. At 16 I had 8 years experience in arboriculture. My Dad might leave me dragging brush while he went around the corner for saw gas or to give a bid but he didn't leave me running a saw or climbing a tree. It wasn't about teenagers being irresponsible ( I was responsible) or me being stupid (it might surprise the regulars here that I am actually more intelligent than the typical box of rocks). The issue is one of age, experience and how much responsibility an adult should relinquish/ permit a minor to be saddled with instead of the adult. This is not intended as disrespectful to you. You DID get in over your head on the Hickory-perhaps Dad could have prevented that.

By the way, a friend that you can't apologize to doesn't share much of a friendship.:angel:


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## Florida16 (Nov 7, 2004)

thanks, I haven't been on in a while because I have been spending like 8 hours a day practicing speed lining.

Also, how do I get my pictures on this website? I just got a digital camera and i wanna put it to use!


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## Nickrosis (Nov 7, 2004)




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## Florida16 (Nov 7, 2004)

Thanks! Here's an up-close picture for any1 who is wondering what I look like!

The pic. sux because it's the first one I took with the camera and I took it myself so...


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## Nickrosis (Nov 7, 2004)

Way close up! Try resizing it. Aussie and I are fans of this program: 
http://download.microsoft.com/download/whistler/Install/2/WXP/EN-US/ImageResizerPowertoySetup.exe

For Windows XP users.


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## glens (Nov 7, 2004)

First, you resize them to less than 1024&times;768 and/or about 100KB.

Then you compose a reply or new thread, preview it so you know it has proper spelling and makes sense, then near the bottom of the input section, where it says "Attach file:", place the location of one image into the input box (or navigate to the file with the selection mechanism) and hit "Submit".

If you place a file location into the attachment input box and merely "Preview" the post, the attachment will get sent to the server but will not be effective for your post.&nbsp; Wait to "attach" it until you're ready to "Submit" the post.

Glen


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## DDM (Nov 7, 2004)

Was that a Mug shot?


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## TREEWRK (Feb 6, 2005)

If you know anything about treework you'll know the term free climbing and
ascender get it


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

Florida16 said:


> no we dont have a chipper, for the simple fact that we have nothing to blow the chips into, we have a 5 acre place we dump and *on the weedends we get a case and a bottle and sit around the fire * ^.^, Yes I am very happy to learn from all of you, also netree, I went to your site and masterblasters, they both are great I will be listening to everything u 2 say because you truely know the art of the tree...
> 
> Well, goodnight, ima goto bed, got a 45 foot Live Oak to take down tomarrow, g'night!
> 
> I'll be on tomarrow



i wasnt going to post but, a case of bubble gum and a bottle of pop right?


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## canopychick (Feb 7, 2005)

Free climbing? I always have to pay...


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 7, 2005)

I wonder what happened with Mr. Hart?


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## JonnyHart (Feb 12, 2005)

Whoa! Is this thread still alive? Well, sh!t wasn't to great the past few months, and yadda, yadda, yadda, I didn,t have web access. Before you even ask, NO, I wasn,t in jail. I was low on cash. Gotta say thanks for all spiking alternatives to everybody. Doing better now, I'll be around.


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