# 50:1 or 32:1 mixture



## sprocket (Oct 21, 2002)

I have a Lawnboy mower which uses 32:1 mixture and use the Lawnboy 2 cycle mower oil. I also have a big collection of other equipment (husky saws, sthil backpack blower, echo wacker) which call for 50:1. Can't I use the 32:1 in all this stuff?? I is
a pain in the ass having to have seperate mixtures. Will I damage
the anything using 32:1 across the board??


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## eyolf (Oct 21, 2002)

This is an issue that just never seems to die. 

The lawnboy, with loose tolerances and split rod big-end, needs plenty of oil, but can use almost anything...I believe their factory oil is now ISO L-EGD, but have use some lower-end stuff in the past.

You shouldn't have trouble at 32:1 in your other stuff...use really good oil, Stihl, Echo, whatever suits you, and take a peek at the exhaust and spark plug now and then. The new low smoke oils don't smoke much even at more concentrated ratios.


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## Tony Snyder (Oct 21, 2002)

I use 32 to 1 in everything. Just choose one of the major quality saw brands of oil; Stihl, Echo, Husky, Jonsered Etc. You can buy the 50:1 marked mix, just recalculate it for 32:1. Don't double it though, that would be too much. I would stay in the 32:1 to 40:1 range.

Just remember these repair shops don't keep 3 or 4 cans of 2 cycle mix around.

I would only be concerned about the Lawn Boy, they have loose tolerence and need more oil.


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## tony marks (Oct 21, 2002)

do this. use stihl at 40-1 mix for 2 wks in all your 2 cycles. next mix 50-1 and 90 or above octane. use that two wks.
see which one is less trouble and runs cleaner. i did that so i know what i think.
the possible place i might make an exception would be on real old equipment that i was really going to run hard several hrs a day .i know what works for me and really solved my 2 cycle problems ,almost completely. 
ill qualify my self as a regular user of this stuff and not a mechanic.. 50-1


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## bwalker (Oct 21, 2002)

32:1 with a good iso egd oil will work great in all your equipment. You will not notiuce more carbon buildup or smoke with the newer iso egd oils.


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## dbabcock (Oct 21, 2002)

I converted everything over to 32:1 earlier this year when I switched to this ratio for my bigger saws. I also use synthetic oil instead of petroleum-based, although this shouldn't be necessary. I've had no problems with anything thus far.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 21, 2002)

The Lawn Boy oil is probably not suitable for your other higher performance 2-cycle engines. Trash the Lawn Boy oil and use a good oil at 40-1. I use Stihl oil at 40-1 in every two cycle engine I've owned for the last 5-6 years. I used Echo oil before that, in everything. 
Multiple cans are a waste and only benefit the companies who stick their name on the bottle and sell it to you.


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## BIG (Oct 21, 2002)

*Lawn Boy = large tolerances?*

Don't want to stir anything up here but a couple of you made "matter of fact" statements that Lawn Boy incorporates large tolerances in their engines which justifies the 32:1 spec for fuel/oil ratio in them. I am just curious - do you know this as a fact? Where are they big in tolerance as opposed to Stihl, Echo, Husky? Are you referring to the old, good Lawnboy engines which were made by OMC or the not so good new ones made today which are not OMC?


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## bwalker (Oct 21, 2002)

I doubt the new lawnboys have sloppy tolerances as people have suggested. They wouldnt last as long as they do if they did. Things are dang neer bullet proof.
Eyeolf, lawnboy factory oil (excellant mosquito killer) is not a iso egd oil. It is ashless so that precludes it from meeting the certs.


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## JimL (Oct 21, 2002)

I can tell you, the lawnboy engines are loose. I work on them all the time. Not what i would want in an engine thats for sure. aside from the fact they are the worst lawnmower invented.


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## bwalker (Oct 21, 2002)

> aside from the fact they are the worst lawnmower invented.


Many people will disagree with you Jim. LB's have a cult following. BTW Do you have any clearance #'s?


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## sedanman (Oct 21, 2002)

A friend of mine mows with a Lawn Boy he bought new in 1978!


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## Mike mandry (Oct 21, 2002)

Right on!! Mine is from 1976 & has been through hell & back & i still use it. Been rebuilt a few times, but she still does the job.

I would not consider anything but a lawnboy. Only way to wreck one is not mix the fuel right. Where else can you get a steel sleeved motor, besides a commercial grade one ??

Lets see a plain jane briggs, or tecumseh go 26 years & still run strong, even after commercial use.


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## Flyrod (Oct 22, 2002)

I have an OMC Lawnboy, I bought new 19yrs ago. For maintenence, I've gone through 2 plugs, cleaned the carb a few times and replaced the primer once. For the last couple of years I have been using Stihl oil mixed 40:1 and it runs great.


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## Greg Carberry (Oct 22, 2002)

Hmmm.. maybe Jim is refering to the needle bearings in most of the LB's. Needle main bearings tend to be looser than ball bearings. However lawn boys do last a long time if maintained properly I have a 1976 one thats still going strong. Got a newer one for free from a guy that ran it without an airfilter I rinsed out the case. It does have some scoring on the exhaust side but it will run great. I'd say it has to be pretty tough to take that.

And on the mix I would go 32:1 in everything with good quality oil. Its worth it to run the extra oil.


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## Toneman (Oct 22, 2002)

My Dad uses a 1957 Lawnboy with "Iron Horse" engine. Still runs strong, and no problems at all. He has been using a 32:1 mix in this without any issues.


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## eyolf (Oct 22, 2002)

BWalker suggests that the new Lawnboy oil is ashless, but not ISO L-EGD. Probably right, but I have seen somebody's private branded oil recently that surprised me as being "the good stuff"

I second the notion that Lawnboys are notorious for longevity. Really only two things that kill 'em...gas, and never cleaning out the muffler/exhaust port. That said, I think piston skirt clearance range is on the order of .009-.017, out of round is something like .010 before replacement is mandated. Rod big-end is a "feel and look" thing...if it looks or feels bad, replace.

Try that on your average Husky or Stihl, LOL.

Of course the specific output on thge Lawnboy is maybe 30% of the equivalent chainsaw.


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## bwalker (Oct 22, 2002)

> somebody's private branded oil recently that surprised me as being "the good stuff


What brand is that? Echo Maybe?


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## xander9727 (Oct 22, 2002)

I run 32:1 in all of my two strokes. I use a ratio rite when mixing so I don't have to guess. I only run Maxima castor 927 ('cause it smells like I'm running nitro) or Maxima K2 full synthetic. I don't have research or hard data to back this up but I have been told by numerous engineers, builders and mechanics that the reason manufacturers went to 50:1 is due to EPA mandates.
Thats my 2 cents.


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 22, 2002)

Lawn Boy oil, meant for 3,000 rpm


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## bwalker (Oct 23, 2002)

I am pretty sure LB oil is made from bituminum. Nasty smoky stuuf. Lwn care people call it blue death. Anyways. A LB only turns 3000? my Toro snowthrower has the same engine as a LB and I could swear it turns higher revs, although I have turned it up a bit,lol.


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## HUSKYMAN (Oct 23, 2002)

Cant spin the motor too fast, remember it has a direct drive connection to a 20" steel blade


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## bwalker (Oct 23, 2002)

> Cant spin the motor too fast, remember it has a direct drive connection to a 20" steel blade


On my tor it actually has agovenor with a star wheel adjuster. The adjuster will not allow you to over rev it. I suspect the factory sets them way low for warranty purposes. i actually got the idea to turn it from some lawn care guys on ************ .


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## BIG (Oct 23, 2002)

*xander9727- that's what smells so good?*

xander, I always wondered if it was the type fuel some people use in their 2-strokes or the oil that gives that distinct 2-stroke smell. Sounds like you say its the oil. This Maxima stuff you use, does it smell like it does because it is castor oil? I love to go to the dirt bike races and sniff up that sweet 2-stroke smell. Heck if this Maxima stuff will make my saws and Toro mowers w/2-stroke Suzuki's smell like that, I gotta get me some. No matter what oil I try (Stihl, Husky, Echo, etc.) my saws and stuff don't ever have that "good" smell - simply smell like a typical hot, air-cooled engine. Therefore I assumed I needed high quality fuel that you can't buy at a gas station to give me the smell.


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## eyolf (Oct 23, 2002)

Regarding my comment about some label of two-stroke oil being ISO-L-EGD, BWalker sez:


> What brand is that? Echo Maybe?



Sorry, but I guess I don't remember if it isn't Lawn-boy. Toro, maybe? Weedeater/Poulan? I think it was one of those casual observations made while thinking about something else. 

The local Hardware store also stocks a two-stroke prepackaged private label oil that says "meets ISO standards for air cooled engines" What that means is probably not only open to debate, but varies by batch.

After reading on this site that Citgo has been supplying oil to some of the OEM.s, I bought a case of 12 of their ISO-L-EGD oil. Only costs about $19 for 12 qts, and guaranteed to meet or exceed specs...probably good enough for me and will last for a couple of years. It isn't that big of a deal for me to use a measuring cup like Xander does.


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## bwalker (Oct 23, 2002)

eyeolf, The Echo oil I was talking about is in fact made by Citgo and is a iso egd certified oil which BTW is differant than just meeting specs. Anybody can claim to meet specs, doesnt hold much water till they actually pass. BY looking at the MSDS for the citgo oil it appears to be really good stuff. E mail me if you want particulars


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## don (Oct 23, 2002)

*Run 32:1 on saws*

Run 32:1 on saws and went to Motul synthetic. Doesn't really smell or smoke much. Run 4 stroke mowers so don't mess with fuel mixture.


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## xander9727 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: xander9727- that's what smells so good?*



> _Originally posted by BIG _
> * I always wondered if it was the type fuel some people use in their 2-strokes...that sweet 2-stroke smell. *



It's the castor bean that gives it the distinctive smell. I run the Maxima 927 because I like the smell. The Maxima K2 is actually better due to the fact it is a full synthetic. The 927 oil will outperform the OEM type oils. It cost more but it cuts down on the carbon build up and makes the saw last longer. Even if you buy high performance oils they are still cheap compared to the cost of an engine. If the extra $25 I spend on performance oil during the life of a saw makes it last 6 months longer I'm happy.


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## bwalker (Oct 23, 2002)

> cuts down on the carbon build up and makes the saw last longer


(27 will leave some nasty deposits in the exhaust because it is a castor based oil. Castor also is hydrophillic like esters so it attracts water.


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## xander9727 (Oct 23, 2002)

,,


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## xander9727 (Oct 23, 2002)

bwalker wrote:
"927 will leave some nasty deposits in the exhaust because it is a castor based oil"

Are you sure about this? I know that some other brands of castor bean oils can cause build up or "gumming" but, Maxima uses "degummed" castor oils and even indicates it on the back of the bottle. 
"Castor 927 is a high-performance, 2-cycle premix oil blended for use in racing engines. Synthetic esters, degummed castor oil and special additives eliminate ring sticking while preventing rust and corrosion"
With as litigious as our society is today you would think the company lawyers would catch something like this if it was just there as a sales gimmick.
Additionally I have used 927 for several years and have not noticed an increase in the amount of deposits.
Please, let me know.


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## bwalker (Oct 23, 2002)

I know it for a fact. I ran it in a dirt bike. The piston wasnt too bad but the pipe was terrible. many other people have had the same reults with bikes. BTW all castors for two cycle use are "degummed". And as far as the deposit comments by maxima. Its all relitive. Compared to a straight castor it probaly is cleaner. Modern synthetics are a far better choice though. Why not use Mobil mx2t at $3.50 a pint? Its less than half the price of 927 and it burns really clean. BTW read the section on maximas website called lube tips. Maxima basically says K2 is a better choice .


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## BIG (Oct 23, 2002)

I have heard the same about Castor oil leaving nasty deposits. But, on a saw, I don't see the big deal in having to yank the muffler off every now and then and clean up the deposits if I get that wonderful smell. But, is the Castor oil a good oil? Does it lubricate and do it's job well besides the deposit issue?


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## tony marks (Oct 24, 2002)

i posted earlier on runnin 50-1.
it occurs to me that the chainsaw being 
probably the hardest working 2 cycle
out there. 40 or 45 -1 might be better for long term. 50-1 works excellent for all my other 2 cycles . also works good for the saws but im talkin, mabe lastin longer.sure hate to keep two different mixes but ill give it a try.
ith blowers ,trimmers etc. i can gurantee the 50-1 will be less trouble. now i dont usually talk in absolutes . but i took a long time finding out what worked better with no problem . and i mean nil.
heck i got one little trimmer by poulan [craftsman 25 cc]that in its 3rd year of 
everyday use. none o the other equipment ever gives any problem 
even the saws. still i think ill try that 40-1. stihl mix for them. dont need to face buying the new 028,these guys were discussin.ill report on this after a while. no offense stihl tech.


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## bwalker (Oct 24, 2002)

Tony, Tell yuo what. Run down to youe nearest autozone and pick up a pint of Mobil MX2T. Run it 32:!, pint to four gallons. I garaunteee you will not have aoil related problem. This mix will burn much cleaner, foul less plugs, and smoke less than the factory dino mix oils from husky, echo and stihl.


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## tony marks (Oct 24, 2002)

appreciate the tip. may give it a try. d-- hate to mess w something aint broke . but thats how i found the method i use now.. ill try that on thesaws . but i aint foolin with the other 2 cycle stuff. 
ive tried that. my method just doesnt have a drawback.. i mean none. and i get away with using some homeowner stuff .
they just keep going with no problems 
with 50-1 stihl.thats not a point of argument thats just a fact,for my stuff.
still with saws, might need a little more lube ,especially when u running hot and steady.we ll see. and ill post back ,if i find anything significant. thanks again bwalker.


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## eyolf (Oct 24, 2002)

Here's an <a href="http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/2cycleol.html">interesting link </a> to a small specialty oil company's discussion on two-stroke oils and some of the differences between them. I've posted it here before, but perhaps it's OK to revisit some of these issues now and then, and it might provide Treeco a bit of additional info regarding his oil question farther back.

I am struck by the idea lately that maybe the oil question isn't all that big a deal. I use the ISO L-EGD oil now in all air-cooled products I own with confidence. I have a couple of bottles of Jonsered oil about 6 or 8 years oil that has no classification at all, but meets warranty requirements, and until about a year ago used oil from a 10-year-old pail of Bombardier snowmobile oil meant to be sold to high-use guys like racers and sno-mo clubs. I got it for $10 a long while back, and never even bothered to look if it had any rating at all.

I siezed one of my saws using ISO, not the old oil last spring, but to be fair, the saw did have lots of miles on it and I was using it hard on a hot day. Never had any problems before. 

I guess my point is that reasonable care and maintenance of your equipment is probably worth more than endless worry about oil. I bet that I would have found a small air leak in the Jonsy crankcase if I had looked, and that's what caused my problem...that and a 10-year-old saw nearing the end of its lifespan.

NOt picking fights, just my $.o2


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## bwalker (Oct 24, 2002)

Eyeolf, I have seen the link you posted before. Its a pretty good article in the sense that it explains why you should not use boat (tcw3) oil in a saw. BTW oil is just like anything else. Some people want the best possible product and others will use whatever is at hand. I tend to be extremely picky when it comes to these sorts of things, but I have never seized a two cycle and or had one wear out in less than normal time. If a proven synthetic product(mx2t) is available and it is the same price or cheaper than a oem dino mix oil why not use it? If this same product is better from a performance and price standpoint its really a no brainer. BTW your old sled oil probaly would work fine if it was made before they went to tcw3 fluids in sleds. Skidoo has since went back to reccomending iso egd type fluids as have Polaris and Cat on models with exhaust valves.


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## eyolf (Oct 24, 2002)

BWalker, Your point is well taken, and, of course, is cogent. Mine is that as long as the product one uses is adequate, that's probably good enough...I bet many chain saws, bikes, trimmers, snowmobiles, etc. are "blown" because of issues not directly related to the oil used, unless you take into account no oil at all.

Your experience sounds as if some of it may be related to high-perf. bike applications, where extra-duty products give enough extra margin of safety as to be very useful. I tip my hat...I played around with a lot of sno-mo engines, a few bike engines, and one Yamaha Kart; about the time I was able to get specific outputs up where we were competitive, reliability went out the window. 
I've not only stuck pistons, I've broken them, melted the tops out, grenaded bottom ends, and even blown jugs off of crankcases. I doubt if I can attribute any of it to the wrong oil, but I can probably say we were trying too hard to get BMEP higher than engine components could handle.

Many of the older sno-mo engines were rehashed stationary power unit designs, not expected to hold together at 350% of their rated load.


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## bwalker (Oct 24, 2002)

> Your experience sounds as if some of it may be related to high-perf. bike applications,


Yep. Bikes and sleds. I have never toasted one, but I no old enough to have lived in the "good" old days when you worked on your slead all week to get it to make it through a day of weekend riding. My dad had a 79 srx 440 like that and a old GP Yamaha before that.


> product one uses is adequate


 I always say theres nothing look gross over kill. Same reason Gypo uses a 088 and ever one lusts after big saws that in reality they will never need.


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## Dagger (Oct 24, 2002)

Let me Mention a couple a things from an engine developers view...
first..the wrongs...
NO the 50:1 was not forced upon us by EPA regs!
HEAT WAS THE CULPRIT..
JEEZ,... and air-cooled 2 stroke saw engine is NOT really aircooled..75 to 80 %of the cooling is effected by the fuel,,the remainder by air.
As we were struggling to get our RPMs up higher than the other guy..but still having to give a warranty as demanded by the sales dept, alot of things came in to consideration..
keep down the heat...a cooler engine last longer!
FACT: GAS cools BETTER than oil
FACT: GAS burns better and cleaner than oil (no , we didnt care about smoke)it was unburned deposits in the combustion chamber, ending up in the ring grooves and on the piston walls causing siezures...and oh man..we had alot a that in the early days
we found nika-sil helped keep the heat that was building up in the walls from transferring to the piston...which we could keep cool by the fuel on BOTH sides of better than we could keep the jug cool. (*** below)..( no , it wasnt to make the bore slicker!)

FACT: the design CLEARANCE TOLERANCES and rpm level and side load factor dictate how much oil is needed..tighter tolerances...LESS OIL FILM THICKNESS..meaning less required in the ratio..we can caculate a volume requirement from this...
in other words % air/fuel (about 28 to one for highest cylinder pressure) X CFM's( that engine is just an air pump right?)
convert that to a volumetric measurement of your choice and we know how much fuel we have going thru the engine...now.in that much fuel, we put in the amount of oil need for lubrication..as dictated by above criteria..add a certain safety factor..(industry standard of 1.25 to 1.5 ) to help us get thru the warranty period whilst all them "EXPERTS" were fooling with the carb adjustments to make em run faster.
that is how manufacturers determine the recommended ratio
NOW..convince the public that MORE is NOT BETTER!
we have been trying to do that for years!
RULE..
a leaner oil mix ratio has better cooling properties than a heavier ratio. DUE to higher volatility (evaporative properities) of gas than oil.
unburned oil looks like varnish and gets "painted" on the piston skirt/sides..this in effect makes the piston "bigger" in the bore and decreases the thickness of the oil film. 
This will lead to premature failure..

Why would a manufacturer, who must guarantee his equipment, recommend anything other than the absoulte BEST ratio for it?
Why would a manufacturer spend countless dollars on service schools for their dealers trying to explain just why a higher ratio/MORE oil is bad?

Some a you guys give me bad dreams!


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## bwalker (Oct 24, 2002)

Dagger, First thing I want to say to you is that I respect the fact that you where in the biz and are a engineer, but I disagree with some of your points.



> NO the 50:1 was not forced upon us by EPA regs!


No, maybe not by legislation, butThe mfgs relised that if the where to clean up there image and score some brownie points with the EPA the would have to elimnate smoke. Hence the drive for low smoke oils and reduced ratios.




> FACT: GAS cools BETTER than oil


May be, But the differance between 50:! and 32:1 interms of the actual amount of oil in the combustion chamber is minimal dont you agree? Secondly does gas really cool a motor more? It might, it might not. Compare the heat of vaporisation of the two. Oil is considerably higher so would in fact it not leach more heat out of the combustion chamber? I know you will say there is a btu differance and there is, but will it make up for the higher vaporization rate of the mix oil?



> was unburned deposits in the combustion chamber, ending up in the ring grooves and on the piston walls causing siezures...and oh man..we had alot a that in the early days


I dont doubt it, but oil tech has come a long ways since you where in the biz. Low ash dispersant technology has cured the carbon/ stuck ring problem you speak of. Todays pump fuel stinks so bad most deposits you see in two cycle running quality oil are from the gas itself. Pump fuel runs back to back throught the same pipelines as diesel and a plethora of other products so mixing can and does happen which leads to deposits in a two cycle.


> we found nika-sil helped keep the heat that was building up in the walls from transferring to the piston...which we could keep cool by the fuel on BOTH sides of


Nicasil was also used because chrome cylinders reach a rpm point where oil will no longer adhere to the cylinder wall which causes galling. Also, In a two stroke the main problem is keeping the piston cool, not the cylinder. Since it is exposed to the combustion event once per revolution it builds and holds much more heat than a four cycle. The piston transfers this heat to the heat sink(cylinder) where airflow from the fan and radiant heat dispersion get rid of it. 


> FACT: the design CLEARANCE TOLERANCES and rpm level and side load factor dictate how much oil is needed..tighter tolerances...LESS OIL FILM THICKNESS..meaning less required in the ratio..we can caculate a volume


Its pretty comon knowledge that tighter clearances do require less viscosity, but not less oil volume. I think you will find todays oils have lower viscositys to address this concern.


> a leaner oil mix ratio has better cooling properties than a heavier ratio. DUE to higher volatility (evaporative properities) of gas than oil.


IMO thats abit speculative with the points I have mentioned above. Gasoline does evaporate at a lower tem, but which will leach more heat out of the combustion chamber? the btus to evaporate oil will certainly be higher than that for gas will they not?


> unburned oil looks like varnish and gets "painted" on the piston skirt/sides..this in effect makes the piston "bigger" in the bore and decreases the thickness of the oil film.


This is only a problem with low tech oil. Add to that the MFGs insisatnce on peddaling low grade dyno oils at a high cost point for them and the fact that EPA mandated mufflers make piston temps go sky high. Its no wonder there is a varniosh problem. The oils is simply coking in response to being subjected to to much heat.


> Why would a manufacturer, who must guarantee his equipment, recommend anything other than the absoulte BEST ratio for it?


Two words. The EPA and CARB. The auto MFGs do the same thing. They reccomend a 5w20 weight oil for Fords new f series trucks this year. The motor hasnt changed in the slightest and is the same one the reccomended a 10w30 a few years ago, but the could gain a bit in cafe so they did it. At the expense of the consumer.
There are also many SAE papers that relate the fact the "more is bettter" better when it comes to oil in a two stroke motor. BTW I know my wrighting and spelling stink, dont rub it in.


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## Dagger (Oct 25, 2002)

Walker, thank you for your kind words in the begining of your post. and as for the end of you post...I sure wont rub it in..I think you spell better than I do! Plus...the way you have figgered out how to do those lines and quotes makes me jealous...it makes a discussion much easier to run. I gotta figger that out.

Let me expand on my viewpoint. If you walk over here on my side a the creek...the water looks a little different.

In the early 80's the market was heavily influenced by advertising warranty...most consumers seem to think that if you warranty a product longer than the other guys..it must be better.
Actually it is a function of sales...not reliability
so, the sales dept wants a long warranty period to enhance this image.
This herein is where it all started. it was not the EPA...they had no jurisdiction on our market then, and we did not consider them fer a sec. That came several years later...after most had switched to 50 to 1 oil already.
When they did start regulating our industry..it was the oil companies that faced the burden of developing low ash oils..low smoke..as so on...not any of the equipment manufacturers.
We tried then to purchase a better grade of oil for our brand labled bottles...but in fact could not. what we encountered was my first expierience in trying to buck the oil company monopolies.
Distributers in the midwest had to buy oil from a refinery/bottler in the midwest...east coast distributors had to buy from the east, and west coast were prevented from ordering from any other place than the west...anyway,,,thats for a different thread.
Now..back in Sweden, engineering was faced with the task of keeping warranties down to an acceptable level with an extended term offered. This was the task we were assigned.
I promise you, I was there.

Now, as you correctly mentioned. Volume /viscosity of oil must be considered.
also what must be considerd is the oil in the fuel mixture does not burn at the same rate as the gas..and when the volume is increased..so is the unburned oil, these are the deposits i speak of..unburned oil..not coke, or carbon,or other hard crispy stuff cause you are right..alot of that comes from crap in the gas. BUt they do not contribute to skirt "painting".
as you mention, the difference is not very much when you figure the volume of oil in 1 charge of the cylinder fuel mix...but what happens is a little oil is left in the combustion chamber unburned...and compound that with rpms and time...and it quickly builds up. conversely , a lower oil volume builds up much less quickly, so , with extra oil and the resultant cooking of this oil on the hot piston( also as you mentioned, the piston is the real hot surface in there) and begins to build up on the piston walls...usually right below the rings...many of you have seen this varnish looking brown "painted" on the piston below the rings on the piston. Anyway you look at it..this is from more oil than the engine can burn..discharge..or generally cope with in the fuel mix.
this layer displaced the oil film between the piston an cylinder..and hence...leads to early failure.
Remember...this was in a time when we were all bringing our saws up to the 12000rpm and above level, and had to have less skirt/wall clearance than in the previous models. so we had to deal with less cushion anyhow...to get our saws to meet an acceptable level of warranty in the now longer term offered, we needed to figure out how to reduce this buildup.
we accomplished it by using bearings from SKF that required less oil...nikasil cylinder coatings that were porus enough to keep the oil film in place at a closer tolerance, and reducing the oil in the fuel mixture.
This recipie didnt just come real easy...several cylinder coatings were tried...lots of bearing designs...and it was the Italians that came up with the nikasil and when they presented us with sample cylinders to use, we could finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. for a time, you could only buy Nikasil coated cylinders from them, and they soon were supplying cylinders to anyone who wanted to go over 12000 rpms ...I wont go further there...could start another whole thread!

lastly...on that point you mentioned about trying to score points with the EPA....
even tho that consideration came several years later...No one I know even tries...EPA is considered a blind elephant...and scoring point with them is thought of like building a step ladder to the moon, cant be done, so aint even tried.
We wait..see what dumb idea/regulation they implement, and consider it a challenge to try and make a marketable product that will comply.


So, thats kinda what the water looks like from this side. I was right there bout knee deep in the creek when we were workin on problems and solutions. I know I wasnt told everything..just a young engineer given a task. but we never were told to meet any emission requirements...or make it run cleaner for the sake of the exhaust. Not then....that came several years later. and i was still there....then we worked on that.but not very hard. The carb regs that gave us most problems were NOX requirements...and what ever oil we used did not really matter much there..we needed to burn less gasoline.....now, talk about a problem...make more power and do it with less gasoline....whew...thats where we still are!


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## Crofter (Oct 25, 2002)

*Gas to oill ratio versus fuel to air ratio*

Would the boys who support a richer oil to fuel ratio be trying to compensate for running their saws with a marginally lean fuel/air ratio? In this condition which would be more likely to contribute to seizure; the higher temperature caused by the lean mixture or the reduction of piston clearance caused by buildup of varnish on the piston from the extra oil?

Just wondering,


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## bwalker (Oct 25, 2002)

> We tried then to purchase a better grade of oil for our brand labled bottles...but in fact could not. what we encountered was my first expierience in trying to buck the oil company monopolies.


 I would love to hear that story.

Dagger, Today the "painting" of the piston is not a probelm with ISO EGD oils. The unburned oil in the chamber you mentioned is because back in the 80's when you where in the biz two stroke oils relied on something called brightstock to reduce piston scuffing and wear.Bright stock is basicaly a very high viscosity petroleum oil that is almost tar like in nature. It allowed the oil co's to get away with peddeling a cheap product because it required very little additizes to reach exceptable scuff prevention. The problem is the fire point of bright stock is very high so its doesnt burn to well. It tends to oxidize and form nasty deposits as well as "paint" the skirt as you mentioned. Todays oem oils like orange bottle stihl are comprised of brightstock, a solvent to aid in mixing, a very small amount of low ash dispersant(calcium based), and some fuel stabaliser. ISO egd oil on the other hand usually have a synthetic base or very highly refined mineral oil bas mixed with a synthetic componenet calles poly iso butene. added to either of these bases is a additive package comprised of dispersant, anti scuff additves. The additve package of a iso oil may be as high as 35% of the total product. Compared to the 5-15% of the oem mix oils it is easy to say why ther burn much cleaner. In conclusion oils that meet the iso spec will burn cleaner at 32:! than the oem oils would at 50:1. The problems you ran into in the 80's have been solved by new technology. BTW nicasil is a patented process developed by Mahle, a German co. The term nicasil is used pretty loosely as there are many types of nickel matrix coatings available. I wonder what type is in the cylinders found in saws?


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## tundraotto (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dagger _
> * it was not the EPA...they had no jurisdiction on our market then, and we did not consider them fer a sec. That came several years later...after most had switched to 50 to 1 oil already. *



then the EPA made the 50:1 ratio not work so well with the new plugged up EPA compliant mufflers?


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

> Would the boys who support a richer oil to fuel ratio be trying to compensate for running their saws with a marginally lean fuel/air ratio? [/QUOTE
> No. Compensate for what?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dagger (Oct 26, 2002)

Walker, Right ,,bright stock looks like STP..in fact, STP used to be about the highest brightstock content stuff a fella could get off the shelf. And you describe its characteristics perfectly
I have also always believed that synthetic oils would be better than a petroleum bright stock lubricant. I dont know enuf about them to know one from the other, but I have no doubt that the burn away could be made to be better and surely there are some that work very well.
ISO EGD...??? I dont know that spec, are there any examples of this spec labled by a chainsaw company ?
I would like to try some however...can you recommend a brand?

Alas..Then is still now..... I reckon the reason we see the problem still today just like we saw it then, is because of the dealers practice to try and sell the company labed oil, and none use it.
believe we can agree that the practice of mixing a company branded oil,,,at.al..sthil, husky,Solo..echo, what ever..at a higher ratio than 50 to one is a bad practice in todays leading saws.
Synthetics however, a different story.

Walker, you bring great discussion here. I think you outta be on that moderator poll!


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dagger _
> *
> ISO EGD...??? I dont know that spec, are there any examples of this spec labled by a chainsaw company ?
> I would like to try some however...can you recommend a brand?
> *



the standard is actually ISO-L-EGD. JASO FC is another one to look at, its the highest Japanese standard for 2 stroke oils, and I believe that it is even more stringent than the ISO-L-EGD (I may be wrong but ben will find out, LOL). No bad oils exist within oils comlying with these standards for 2-stroke oils. Examples are: husky, echo, and stihl oil.

You can always go better with a synthetic such as Mobil MX2T or MOTUL 800 2T.


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## don (Oct 26, 2002)

*Moyul 800T*

In another discussion very similar to this I switched to Motul 8002T synthetic based on the Walker's convincing point of view.
Very happy with this discussion.

For a big saw like 066 it seems to handle better under long stress running a 36 bar. Just doesn't get as hot as it used to and no smoke.

Found a place in California selling it for $under $40 a gallon delivered. So I go from Stihl black label for $30 a gallon to this for less than a 10 dollar difference.

No exhaust smell and smells like bazooka bubble gum prior to the mix. 

Maybe it smells like original flavored Bubble Yum Bubble gum. 

Do you think we should discuss, maybe a poll for our favorite exhaust smells?


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

> ISO EGD...??? I dont know that spec, are there any examples of this spec labled by a chainsaw company ?


Stihl black bottle, echo premium are two oem examples. Mobil MX2T available at autozone for 3.50 a pint is my favorite.



> the standard is actually ISO-L-EGD. JASO FC is another one to look at, its the highest Japanese standard for 2 stroke oils, and I believe that it is even more stringent than the ISO-L-EGD


 The jaso FC standard has less strict deposit control and scuff tests than the iso-l-egd as it directed to smoke control more than anything else. Iso egd does use the jaso fc smoke test as part of its standard. Overall the iso standard is much harder to pass. Iso egd oils must be part synthetic at the minimum to pass while some dino oils still pass jaso fc.
Otto for the price mx2t is very hard to beat although Motul 800 will take abit more heat. It cost alot more also. Don really got a great price on it.


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bwalker _
> * Iso egd oils must be part synthetic at the minimum to pass while some dino oils still pass jaso fc.
> *



I knew that no dino oils passed the ISO-L-EGD, but didnt think any of them passed JASO FC either, which dino oils pass JASO FC?

btw. got a gallon of Motul 800 on the way to try out.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

Otto, of hand I cant remember. I could do some digging and find out.


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## don (Oct 26, 2002)

*Motul 800T*



> btw. got a gallon of Motul 800 on the way to try out.



What did you pay ?


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

$29.95 + $13 shipping - from cycle tech who you recommended. I could not find it cheaper anywhere.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

Thats really cheap Otto. It sells for around $15 a quart in my area.


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## don (Oct 26, 2002)

*Great to know*

I couldn't find it for less. I even called Motul and obtained a couple West coast distributors and was quoted around $35 and had to buy $500 worth of it. 

I guess allot of the guys at Ctech ride / race with Motul people out in the desert. The motul guys didn't refer me to Ctech. The two facilities are less than a hour away from each other.

Hey I'm not gonna complain ... the distributors wouldn't be too happy about it ... and I'm not tellin.

Does synthetic have a shelf life?

What is an appropriate shelf life for a fuel mix?

How does stabilizer work? Is it worth while?

Thanks all.


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

*Re: Great to know*



> _Originally posted by don _
> *Does synthetic have a shelf life?
> 
> What is an appropriate shelf life for a fuel mix?
> ...



Yeah that was a good deal (800T) - I should get it sometime next week and will try it out. Hope it smells good or has no smell like MX2T...LOL

synthetic shelf life? - I dont think so if it has not been opened (several years I imagine) - if its open I dont know
shelf life for mix - I dont keep mine for over 4weeks
stabilizer - a must for all 2 cycle equipment unless you burn all your gas in a week or so. It prolongs the fuel degradation process - it does not eliminate it. It does work though.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

Provided the container is sealed it will last for years. If it has been opened and is sealed tightly you shoud not have a problem if you use it within a few months. Motul 800 is ester based so it will draw moisture out of the air if the container is not sealed tightly. As far as mixed gas going bad. If you store it in a steel can it will last a very long time. When stored in plastic it begins to degrade rather soon, so I always use steel cans. Its best to only mix up the amount you will use in a weeks time.
Otto, Motul 800 has a very slight smell which is better than mx2t IMO. It smells kind of sweet.


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## Greg Carberry (Oct 26, 2002)

Walker you seem to know your stuff well. Very good thread so I will ask you a few questions.

What is better castor or full synth?

Is Klotz oil any good the BC-175 castor or and the R50 full synth? Alot of guys run Klotz around here for racing and swear by it.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

I rebuilt two motocross bikes this year that where run on r-50. I was not too impressed. Lots of deposits on head, power valves and exh port.

As far as the case of castor vs synthetic thing. Synthetic wins hands down IMO. Castor is old school tech that has been replaced by synthetics.Castor based oils do have there place, but engines that are not rebuilt every weekend is not one of them


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

Anybody know of a good place to get metal gas cans with pour spouts?


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

I buy them at the hardware store. Eagle mfg is the brand. I believ you can get them through Graingers supply, Tractor supply, etc.


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

yeah - thats the ones we have at work but they are like $30 for a 2 gallon can. I'd like to get some that cost about $8.95 with nozzle


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

$30? Thats highway robbery. I think I payed about 18 bucks for a 5 gallon with spout. The 2 1/4 gallons where ten bucks.

Here is a link to eagleusa online. The have the metal canes for a good price. http://www.eagleusainc.com/


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## tundraotto (Oct 26, 2002)

Thats great Ben - much better! Thanks for the link! Now I just have to decide whether to spend the extra on the safety cans that ride in the truck toolbox or to just stick with the plain metal can...what do you think? $14.50 vs. $34.00.  I guess I should go with the plain Jane version as otherwise I am back to $30/can


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

Saftey cans do not have spouts that are condusive to filling a saw so I would just go with the standard ones. I like the 2 1/4 gallon size.


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## Fish (Oct 26, 2002)

Anyone know where to get watering cans with flower heads on
the spouts?
How about batteries for my remote?


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

How about another cold one, fish? Im doing abit of "beveraging" myself tonight.


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## Fish (Oct 26, 2002)

What is a popular working man's beer up there? Tundraotto is a
PBR man for sure. But Michigan must be good beer country.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2002)

I like PBR, but I would drink anything besides Hamms, blatz, and very few others. Id say MI is a Bud/Budlite state,except for the UP. You got all the cheeseheads up there that drink miller.


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## blackwaterguide (Oct 27, 2002)

always had that uneasy feeling that 50:1 was a California thing, and epa backed. They don't give a dang about my husky.


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## xander9727 (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by blackwaterguide _
> *always had that uneasy feeling that 50:1 was a California thing, and epa backed. They don't give a dang about my husky. *



Califruity...

The armpit of free Americal!!!!


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## Fish (Oct 27, 2002)

Cincinatti ain't no rose garden.


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## xander9727 (Oct 27, 2002)

Maybe so, but I still have my 2nd amendment rights!


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## Fish (Oct 27, 2002)

What agenda are you referring to?
I seem to have misplaced my constitution. It was here a
minute ago!


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## tundraotto (Oct 27, 2002)

kentucky has no rights fish - your 2nd amendment rights are just as important as eveyone elses...I hope you still know to appreciate them even though you live is a redneck state like I do. Most people here do. Once its gone its gone. Kind of like the low speed screws out of our 2-strokes...

Mind you, youre awfully mouthy so I know you know your first amendment rights, LOL


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## Fish (Oct 28, 2002)

Our favorite is the 21st amendment


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## don (Oct 28, 2002)

*Get you gas cans while you can*

Went to the store (Home Depot) the other day (here in California)and they pulled the gas cans ... was told new "safety" feature required on the pour sprout. Haven't seen one yet.

BTW you guys don't know all there is about California. 
it is not a simple place to live and you can't believe all there is here.


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## bwalker (Oct 28, 2002)

> gas cans ... was told new "safety" feature required on the pour sprout. Haven't seen one yet.


It sounds like CARB pissing away more taxpayer dollars by coming up with useless laws. Cant they figure out that LA and SanFran's air problem is largley geographic in nature. BTW Kalifornia isnt as bad as people think.......Its way worse IMO.


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## xander9727 (Oct 28, 2002)

I lived in California for the last seven years. I relocated to the midwest 10 months ago. The loss of freedoms, the increase in the cost of living and all the tree hugging (no offense fellow arborist), non-driving, gun hating, latte drinking, volvo driving, Clinton loving, touffoo eating, two stroke protesting, sue happy, riot making, pain in my ever lovin rear people are NOT worth the weather, which I might add is hot, dry and miserable unless you within 10 miles of the coast or north of San Jose. I don't want to go overboard so I'll keep my opinion to my self.


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## Fish (Oct 12, 2006)

Now this is an oldie worth you all reading......


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## wagonwheeler (Oct 12, 2006)

Are we getting extra credit for this? 

Chaser


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## vapnut257 (Oct 12, 2006)

*All in one Mix*

I've read through this whole thread and have not seen that "all mix in one" oil discussed. I think it's called "pro Mix" and it's about all you can find at Lowes unless you look real hard. I have machines that use 16:1, 32:1, 40:1 and 50:1I decided to use that one mix works in all oil for all my old stuff, but still use the recommended Husqvarna oil in my chainsaw, which is still in "Chainsaw Hell".


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## Fish (Oct 12, 2006)

Yes,
"extra credit will be given to those who actually read some of the old posts"...


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## Canyon Angler (Oct 12, 2006)

OK, I haven't read all 6 pages of this thread, but since no one responded to my question about this on another thread, I've pasted it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Paws
32:1 = more oil, less gas per unit volume. If your saw/carb is adjusted for 40:1 and then runs 32:1, it is now running the saw leaner. Oil lubricates, the incoming/fresh charge of fuel "cools" the saw, and the rings transfer the heat to the cylinder walls for removal. Less fuel makes the saw hot (lean), the hot saw then eventually flashes the oil that lubricates the rings, the hot rings become hotter due to increased friction as there is no oil, the rings and piston expand due to increased heat, piston melts, saw stops.
End of quote by Four Paws

OK, I'm not a saw mechanic, and I won't pretend to know anywhere near what ya'll know about saws and saw motors, but I've been hearing this and it's just really hard for me to believe.

Look at the numbers:

The percentage of gasoline (by volume) in a given charge of 32:1 premix is about 97%.

(32/33 = 97%)

The percentage of gasoline (by volume) in a given charge of 50:1 premix is about 98%.

(50/51 = 98%)

That means that if a hypothetical single charge of premix has a volume of 10 cc, then:

in 32:1 premix there will be 9.7 cc of gasoline, and
in 50:1 premix there will be 9.8 cc of gasoline.

That means the 32:1 premix contains about 1% less gasoline per charge than the 50:1 premix.

Given the fact that an awful lot of the gasoline in a 2-stroke motor goes through the motor unburned anyway, I find it hard to believe that the motor will sense a 1% difference in the richness/leanness of a charge.

I'm not a mechanic, but it just don't make sense to me. Can someone help me understand?


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## Mingara (Oct 12, 2006)

*25:1/30:1*

Can I run my lawn mower that is listed as 25:1 on 32:1 as well. I have been running my chain saw at 50:1 (supposed to be 40:1) and brush cutter at 50:1 (the correct ratio). 

Can I run them all on 32:1 including the lawn mower.

thanks

Mingara


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2006)

That is kind of why I am dredging up these old threads, because they contain some good info, which are applicable to all of these new posts. The quality
of the newer posts is directly related to the fact that most of the older
members have already talked about these questions, and do not waste time
going into them again, let alone read about them. Most do not even bother logging on any more. 
Reread the posts made by Dagger, he has some interesting posts.


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## Canyon Angler (Oct 13, 2006)

Fish said:


> Reread the posts made by Dagger, he has some interesting posts.



Thanks Fish, wil do.


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## WRW (Oct 15, 2006)

This site is, and has been, fortunate to have some quite knowledgeable posters.


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## tiredone (Oct 22, 2006)

Cool! A thread discussing oil. I thought only hot rod forums got into oil debates. :sword: 

Anyway, I have this old McCulloch PowerMac 340 saw I picked up for $50. With a few more bucks invested for a fresh chain and new clutch, it's running nicely now. I think this saw had low use. It was probably put away when the bad clutch left the chain spinning. The nice thing is the carb has adjustment screws. :rockn: 

I don't have any documentation for this saw, so I don't know what ratio oil mix to use. I tried some 50:1 for my Shindawa weed trimmer and it worked okay. I was thumbing through the book for an old Craftsman saw of the same age and that called for 16:1. That got me wondering if this saw should also be 16:1 mix since they are similar dates. Can anyone tell me what mix is correct for this old saw?


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## ray benson (Oct 22, 2006)

The PM310, PM320, PM330, PM340, PM355, PM365, PM375 all called for 40/1 mix.


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## tiredone (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks very much Ray. I read somewhere a different McCulloch took 40:1 but when I read this old Craftsman book, I lost my nerve. The saw runs really nicely with 40:1. This saw smoked really badly when I got it from sitting with coagulated mix in the tank. I got nervous when I didn't get enough smoke. :hmm3grin2orange: Better to ask questions than to make big mistakes.


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## blackwaterguide (Nov 6, 2006)

*fuel mix ratios*

I talked to a so-called mechanic about my Poulan 225 automatics, of which I still had a dozen nearly new. He said run 50:1, it would be fine. I told him I didn't believe that and he got uppety. I'm running husky 50:1 oil because I cant find 16:1 as spec'ed for these saws (an old time fine climbing saw) So far I''m not fouling plugs at 24:1 mix and the saws seem not to get hot and run fine


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## Lakeside53 (Nov 6, 2006)

The mechanic is right... so long as you use the right oil (not motor oil). Thicker mix isn't necessarily better.. We put 50:1 in all Stihl saws now, not matter what the age, and any other brand we get in now and then. If you want to run 40:1, fine , but 16 or 24:1 isn't needed.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2006)

> Thicker mix isn't necessarily better..


 I am sure its not with some oils, but with a quality oil there is no draw back to using a little more oil. To the contrary a little more oil does give a bit of "cushion" when in extreme conditions.


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## ciscoguy01 (Nov 6, 2006)

*Better*

It's always better to run a little rich. At worst you'll foul a plug. But that cheaper than overhauling your engine eh???


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## blis (Nov 6, 2006)

ciscoguy01 said:


> It's always better to run a little rich. At worst you'll foul a plug. But that cheaper than overhauling your engine eh???



running rich and running on heavy mix are totally different things... and to subject, with MODERN oils there is absolutely no reason to run with mix above 2,5% , thou, it was different decades ago when there werent any good oils, instead you had to mix engine oil with gasoline. Now thats a reason to use lets say, 3-4% mix.... But as i said, no reason to go above 2,5%...


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## ciscoguy01 (Nov 6, 2006)

*Thanks*



blis said:


> running rich and running on heavy mix are totally different things... and to subject, with MODERN oils there is absolutely no reason to run with mix above 2,5% , thou, it was different decades ago when there werent any good oils, instead you had to mix engine oil with gasoline. Now thats a reason to use lets say, 3-4% mix.... But as i said, no reason to go above 2,5%...



I did not know that...


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2006)

> running rich and running on heavy mix are totally different things... and to subject, with MODERN oils


 Tell that to the thousands of moto-x, road race, snowmobile, outboard, and Kart racers to name just a few.
Kart racers frequantly run 16:1!
My Ski Doo snowmobile came from the factory set at 20:1 and I have ran it that way since new. Havent had any issues with running that way, which is more than I can say for some others running the same model who had their dealers adjust their oil pumps to the factory specified 40:1 setting. I would rather have a little insurance.


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## MS-310 (Nov 6, 2006)

One thing also, 

It's not the best oils or how much oil you use its really how the Engine is produced. As of the type of steal the type or bearings and alot to do with RPM just some food for thought, (i like 38.5 to 1 ratio )


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## blis (Nov 6, 2006)

bwalker said:


> Tell that to the thousands of moto-x, road race, snowmobile, outboard, and Kart racers to name just a few.
> Kart racers frequantly run 16:1!
> My Ski Doo snowmobile came from the factory set at 20:1 and I have ran it that way since new. Havent had any issues with running that way, which is more than I can say for some others running the same model who had their dealers adjust their oil pumps to the factory specified 40:1 setting. I would rather have a little insurance.



might be the thing that karts alot higher hp/cc ratio than saw and they also rev few k higher than saws... BUT more oil -> less power... also, racing world is different than chainsaw world...

btw,my 125cc italian motorcycle (35hp/14 000rpms) pumps *3%* mix at max revs...


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2006)

> BUT more oil -> less power...


 Since the 70's it has been well known and documented(SAE papers on the subject) that the mor oil present in the mix the mor epower a two cycle engine makes. mac actullay authored a paper on thsi in the 70's.


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## blis (Nov 7, 2006)

bwalker said:


> Since the 70's it has been well known and documented(SAE papers on the subject) that the mor oil present in the mix the mor epower a two cycle engine makes. mac actullay authored a paper on thsi in the 70's.



care to link any proof?


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## Lakeside53 (Nov 7, 2006)

Interestingly , in the last two tech session I attended with Stihl they were adamant that, with everything else being even, oil ratios of more less 50:1 (like 32:1) will reduce the life of the saw. I really pressed them on whether this was just the party line for EPA and the answer was no... the carbon that eventually builds up behind and around the rings is the issue. By "life" they are talking about hours in the 1000's.. Believe it or not.. it's just a data point. I asked them if a fatter mix gave a bigger buffer for extreme conditions, and they said "maybe", but that it depended on what got you first.


None of this means squat unless the type of oil used taken into account, so I just use the best oil and gas I can get. Right now the oil is a full synthetic.

I run 50:1 but with a slightly richer mixture setting than "max", but that's just me.

I certainly fatten up my mixes for milling, and richen the mixture, but that's not typical saw use, and I'm sure not going to get 2000 hours out of my mill saws!


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2006)

> care to link any proof?


 Go to www.SAE.org and do a search.



> Interestingly , in the last two tech session I attended with Stihl they were adamant that, with everything else being even, oil ratios of more less 50:1 (like 32:1) will reduce the life of the saw. I really pressed them on whether this was just the party line for EPA and the answer was no... the carbon that eventually builds up behind and around the rings is the issue.


 In most of the cases I have seen motors ran with more oil in the mix tend to be cleaner. Carbon may be a issue with Stihls crappy orange bottle oil, but not with a modern synthetic or semi synthetic.
Also consider the fact that much of the deposits you see in a two cyle come from the fuel. When running more oil in the mix you have more detergants to take care of these deposits before they form.
Here is a pic of a sled motor with more than a few thousand miles on it at 32:1. Pretty clean, eh?


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## amdburner (Nov 7, 2006)

Hmmmm... more oil, more power..... I had a Kawasaki KDX175 that would not run well at all if the mix was even remotely off. Put in a little too much oil and it ran like crap. Cut the oil back and it would run like a banshee. My old Skidoo free airs had the same problem. Too much oil and you spend more time working on the sled than riding it. I found alot of my troubles went away when running at 50:1. The only engine I had that had any issue with it was a 399 in a Skidoo Nordik which the original rings wore but it had quite a few miles on it already before I owned it. I still have a 440 F/A and a 340RV F/A which run well. So, I guess I subscribe to belief that more oil is not always better. More oil leans the fuel/air mixture and changing carb settings will richen the fuel mixture but you are then also introducing more oil in a straight mix situation. Just adding my .02 since I took the time to read this whole thread.


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## amdburner (Nov 7, 2006)

BWalker,
That is a pretty clean piston and exhaust port. What sled iis that from? Also, a take it that you removed the oil injection and are running straight mix? If you don't mind me asking why would you do this? Just curious.

Dave


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2006)

It is off a 800 polaris. I didnt remove the oil injection, I just cranked it up.
Its likely that your tuning problems back in the day had to do with the crappy oils back then and from improper carb tuning.


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## Lakeside53 (Nov 7, 2006)

bwalker said:


> In most of the cases I have seen motors ran with more oil in the mix tend to be cleaner. Carbon may be a issue with Stihls crappy orange bottle oil, but not with a modern synthetic or semi synthetic.
> Also consider the fact that much of the deposits you see in a two cyle come from the fuel. When running more oil in the mix you have more detergants to take care of these deposits before they form.



I'll buy that. I asked them why not tell everyone to run on full syn and the answer was simply that people will buy the cheapest oil sold, and to be competitive, just like their competition, they still sell the dino oil. 

At our store we're phasing out the old orange and mainly stocking the semi-synthetic "Super" blend. It's about 30% more expensive, but I'm not seeing any great price resistance at that level.


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## amdburner (Nov 7, 2006)

BWalker,
Then you are running 32:1 at WOT. The injection system, if I am correct, runs anywhere from 150:1 at idle and up to 50:1 (at recommended setting). This is what I have read anyway.


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## Lakeside53 (Nov 7, 2006)

Here's some oil test done by Stihl. Don't draw excessive conclusion or applicability to saws from these. They are the results obtained by running BR600 4 mix blowers for 500 hours straight at full power. Saws get to thermally cycle which keeps some of the build-up down.

The Stihl "Ultra" is a full synthetic oil. The "Super" is "Semi-synthetic" (blend); the HP is the old dino "orange" and the Low smoke is now a discontinued mix oil.

The mix ratio is 50:1


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## blis (Nov 7, 2006)

from those pics you can clearly tell that hp ultra did best job (not much carbon on top, skirt is clean)...


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## amdburner (Nov 7, 2006)

Here is a link with an interesting oil test with large R/C aircraft engines. This is a 42cc engine.

http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/articles/oil_test/index.htm


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## amdburner (Nov 7, 2006)

Lakeside53,
Thanks for the pics. Very informative.

Dave


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## Canyon Angler (Nov 7, 2006)

amdburner said:


> Also, a take it that you removed the oil injection and are running straight mix? If you don't mind me asking why would you do this? Just curious.



Dave, I don't know anything about sled motors but I've seen several outboard motors with oil injection seize from the oil injector system quitting. I now run my 2-stroke outboards on 100:1 premix (in addition to the oil injection) in case that happens. It can be a long walk home from 50 nm offshore...


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## amdburner (Nov 7, 2006)

Angler,
I have never had an injection system problem with my snowmobiles that wasn't caused by something I did wrong. A story that I would rather not tell. :bang: Anyway, outboard engines can be a different story from my experience. Some of the injection systems I have seen on them are questionable. Another problem I have encountered was with an Evinrude (IIRC) where the oil that was recommended had PTFE "junks" in it and would continually cause a problem with the injection system. I do not know what they were thinking putting powdered PTFE in the oil. It would plug up the screen in the oil tank fill and you would have to work the oil through the screen with your fingers. My cousins Johnson 225 outboard was changed to pre-mix as I guess the injection systems on those were known to be problematic as well. 

Dave


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## Fish (Apr 3, 2007)

yes this was 1


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 3, 2007)

What was 1???


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## Trigger-Time (Apr 4, 2007)

Fish said:


> yes this was 1





Lakeside53 said:


> What was 1???




"There were some relevant threads posted/made by Dagger, I will see if I can conjure them up." Fish


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2007)

Sorry, my thought processes were under the control of the Miller brewing 
company at the time. 

This thread contained some interesting reading, since the oil/heat topic popped up again, and again.


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## GASoline71 (Apr 4, 2007)

Fish said:


> Sorry, my thought processes were under the control of the Miller brewing
> company at the time.



Well... at least you were honest... opcorn: 

Gary


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## timistall (Apr 4, 2007)

blis said:


> from those pics you can clearly tell that hp ultra did best job (not much carbon on top, skirt is clean)...



Even the Ultra looks bad to me. Can that carbon score the cyl. if it breaks loose?


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2007)

Keep in mind this test isnt really relevant to saws due to the motor type and the operating conditions the test was run under.


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## Fish (Dec 7, 2009)

Well, I bet this topic will be rehashed forever...........

But this is a good one anyway.


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## Fish (Mar 4, 2010)

Good threads need to be bumped....


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## Fish (May 15, 2010)

bump


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## jason6586 (May 15, 2010)

If you have an AMSOIL dealer somewhere close you can pick up some of there 100:1 pre-mix. I have been running that for at least 8-9 years in everything 2-stroke that i have with absolutely no problems. Some people gasp at the 100:1 mix but AMSOIL has there stuff together on this one. I go through 30-40 gallons of mix gas a year with all my stuff (boat, snowmobile, chainsaws, trimmers, lawn mower's). I had an ancient old Lawnboy that my grandpa gave me 12 years ago and it finally bit the dust (broke the crank by the blade hub). When i switched everything over to the AMSOIL that thing ran like it got an instant attitude adjustment, no smoke, the plug looked like i put it in a few hrs ago and it was at least 12+ years old. Its all i use but thats just my 2 cents.


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## GASoline71 (May 15, 2010)

Fish said:


> bump



HAHAHAHA! 

...and somebody took the bait too!

Gary


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## RandyMac (May 15, 2010)

You ####ers go ahead and believe that California is LA, SF and desert. Sure enough, we have our problems, however, there is the rest of the state. Do us a favor, visit LA, leave the rest of it to us.

I run 40 to 1 synth with 89 octane real gasoline in all my old saws, even the 1954 SilverKing likes it, the Macs love it. I do miss the smell of the old stuff though.


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## Honkie (May 15, 2010)

So, will Gary-Goo make a lawnboy run faster?




































Hiya peckerhead!


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## GASoline71 (May 16, 2010)

No... but it will make a bar wench scream... 

Gary


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## Teddy.Scout (May 16, 2010)

RandyMac said:


> You ####ers go ahead and believe that California is LA, SF and desert. Sure enough, we have our problems, however, there is the rest of the state. Do us a favor, visit LA, leave the rest of it to us.
> 
> I run 40 to 1 synth with 89 octane real gasoline in all my old saws, even the 1954 SilverKing likes it, the Macs love it. I do miss the smell of the old stuff though.



I agree with *RandyMac* on the ratio!!!, But not his choice of saw brands! LOL!
090's 090G's Contra's of all shapes love 40-1 _(sometimes 35-1 when I am lazy)_
To young to know the smell of the old stuff!!!!


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## Andyshine77 (May 16, 2010)

GASoline71 said:


> HAHAHAHA!
> 
> ...and somebody took the bait too!
> 
> Gary



Yup the Amsoil dealer.Hahahaha and me lol

Jason do you have any pics of the inside of a saws piston and cylinder that was run on 100:1? I've seen the results myself in person, not good.


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## RandyMac (May 16, 2010)

Teddy.Scout said:


> I agree with *RandyMac* on the ratio!!!, But not his choice of saw brands! LOL!
> 090's 090G's Contra's of all shapes love 40-1 _(sometimes 35-1 when I am lazy)_
> To young to know the smell of the old stuff!!!!



LMAO!!!
Teddy, some day you will run one, and all your other saws will be rented out as Danforth replacements.


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## eyolf (May 16, 2010)

_To young to know the smell of the old stuff!!!! _

I found a half-bottle of some generic "chainsaw oil" in a junk box this winter. I don't know how old it was, or who really made it (bottled for Farwell, Ozmun and Kirk...OK hardware store chain) but it had that old-time smell in the Techumseh on my ice auger.

I miss that smell, and the blue smoke that just "hangs". But I fouled the plug on the second tank of fuel in the auger; havent put a new on in for years of modern oil usage.

I bought a bottle of Klotz R50 a while ago to enjoy the smell. Not quite the same as years ago; a little like a cheap musk perfume on a bar-ho. Plus I didn't like paying$13 a quart for mix oil. Neighbor's kid has some grape-scented stuff to mix in the fuel for his MX bike. It shouldn't be hard for an enterprising chemist to synthesize that old-time scent for us


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## weimedog (May 16, 2010)

Almost like that Simon and Garfunkel song "Still Crazy After all these years".

Still 32:1 after all these years...

(seen nothing to convince me to change my ways yet)


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## jason6586 (May 16, 2010)

I'm not an amsoil dealer i just got turned onto the stuff a while back with my snowmobile and saw how good it worked out on that so i switched over everything else. I have a Dolmar 5100S that i bought new 3 years ago and its never had anything else in it from new (except for the first tank that was in there already) and it runs awesome. I dont have any pictures of the cylinder because i haven't had to do any work to it. I did adjust it down a bit tho. I have it running right around 13,800 - 14,000 rpm instead of 14,500. I heat my home with wood and usually cut 30+ face cord a year (for myself and a needy family that i give wood to). Its the only saw i have and she has many hrs on her and still hasnt skipped a beat. I know i have read stories on the AMSOIL about people having problems but as for me I love it and won't switch back. Its so nice having one gas can and one bottle of oil not to mention that since I started running it I noticed that i drastically cut back on maintenance. Like i said, I don't make a dime if someone buys it or not. I'm just telling people what i know and whats worked great for me.


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## csx7006 (May 16, 2010)

well i will stick to runnin 32:1 in my stuff


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## blsnelling (May 16, 2010)

bwalker said:


> Here is a pic of a sled motor with more than a few thousand miles on it at 32:1. Pretty clean, eh?



Was this MX2T? BTW, this is one of the best, if not THE best oil thread I've read on here. It's a must read.


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## Nitroman (May 16, 2010)

sprocket said:


> I have a Lawnboy mower which uses 32:1 mixture and use the Lawnboy 2 cycle mower oil. I also have a big collection of other equipment (husky saws, sthil backpack blower, echo wacker) which call for 50:1. Can't I use the 32:1 in all this stuff?? I is
> a pain in the ass having to have seperate mixtures. Will I damage
> the anything using 32:1 across the board??



I think 16:1 would be better.


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## GlenM (May 16, 2010)

I'm stickin with my Walmart oil, 80:2
never had a problem yet.....


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## komatsuvarna (May 16, 2010)

90 wt gear oil mixed at 8:1. You'll never have to worry about a seizure.


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## 7sleeper (May 16, 2010)

komatsuvarna said:


> 90 wt gear oil mixed at 8:1. You'll never have to worry about a seizure.



Does it run?

7


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## Andyshine77 (May 16, 2010)

jason6586 said:


> I'm not an amsoil dealer i just got turned onto the stuff a while back with my snowmobile and saw how good it worked out on that so i switched over everything else. I have a Dolmar 5100S that i bought new 3 years ago and its never had anything else in it from new (except for the first tank that was in there already) and it runs awesome. I dont have any pictures of the cylinder because i haven't had to do any work to it. I did adjust it down a bit tho. I have it running right around 13,800 - 14,000 rpm instead of 14,500. I heat my home with wood and usually cut 30+ face cord a year (for myself and a needy family that i give wood to). Its the only saw i have and she has many hrs on her and still hasnt skipped a beat. I know i have read stories on the AMSOIL about people having problems but as for me I love it and won't switch back. Its so nice having one gas can and one bottle of oil not to mention that since I started running it I noticed that i drastically cut back on maintenance. Like i said, I don't make a dime if someone buys it or not. I'm just telling people what i know and whats worked great for me.



This is a picture of a piston from a MS441 that was ran on AMSOIL @ 100:1 the internal parts were dry with no oil residue. The saw was still running fine before tear down. Picture curtsy of Erick.


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## komatsuvarna (May 16, 2010)

7sleeper said:


> Does it run?
> 
> 7



Heck yeah. That thick oil really bumps compression up.


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## Fish (May 16, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> This is a picture of a piston from a MS441 that was ran on AMSOIL @ 100:1 the internal parts were dry with no oil residue. The saw was still running fine before tear down. Picture curtsy of Erick.



You will fit in here nicely....


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## blsnelling (May 16, 2010)

Here's the result of milling with a strato 441 using too little oil, and possible tuned a little lean. It was only a good synthetic that saved the engine. He was running WoodlandPro Synthetic. I became a believer in this oil after seeing this. There were signs of excessive heat, but no scoring at all.


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## Jonsered2095 (May 16, 2010)

Fish said:


> That is kind of why I am dredging up these old threads, because they contain some good info, which are applicable to all of these new posts. The quality
> of the newer posts is directly related to the fact that most of the older
> members have already talked about these questions, and do not waste time
> going into them again, let alone read about them. Most do not even bother logging on any more.
> Reread the posts made by Dagger, he has some interesting posts.



Hey Fish, Dagger conceded he didn't know squat about oil properties...

bwalker had the best knowledge, and even Lake didn't disagree. Good read (search is your friend)


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## Fish (May 16, 2010)

Jonsered2095 said:


> Hey Fish, Dagger conceded he didn't know squat about oil properties...
> 
> bwalker had the best knowledge, and even Lake didn't disagree. Good read (search is your friend)



You don't expect me to read all of this chit do you???

I was just stirring up some old good posts!!!!! There is some good reading there for you guys........


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## Jonsered2095 (May 16, 2010)




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## Fish (Jan 3, 2012)

Bump.


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## HarleyT (Mar 26, 2015)

Since the current oil ratio deteriorated into a detonation/octane fest, I'll call this golden oldie out because on the third page Dagger puts out some great info.
He was actually a engineer that worked for one of the smaller saw manufacturers, it is still pretty much taboo for them to post on these online forums, so it
was great to have him way back then.


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## bwalker (Mar 27, 2015)

Walker was right....


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## bwalker (Mar 27, 2015)

N


blsnelling said:


> Here's the result of milling with a strato 441 using too little oil, and possible tuned a little lean. It was only a good synthetic that saved the engine. He was running WoodlandPro Synthetic. I became a believer in this oil after seeing this. There were signs of excessive heat, but no scoring at all.


I have seen pistons run on synthetics that look just like that and also most every engine run on castor or castor blend oils looks like that. Deposits like that could be caused by the gas too. One thing to look at if you suspect the piston got hot is to look at the underside of the crown it will have any ashy burnt appearance if it got hot.


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## nk14zp (Mar 27, 2015)

32:1


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## sunfish (Mar 27, 2015)

OLD ass oil thread. Cool!


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