# My climbing rope is full of pine pitch. Help!



## TreeandLand

Ground man and I just finished removing two large white pines that I spent a lot of time climbing in. I tried to use a false crotch whenever possible, but still got my rope pitchy. The vt hitch sticks to the rope....causeing big headaches.
Who knows a good way to clean pitch off? Washing machine? Dish soap?


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## flushcut

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## rarefish383

Never fails, every time I get a new rope or climbing saw, I wind up in a big White Pine. When I got my little Echo 305 I had my hands and the saw so covered in pitch that I could hold my hand wide open and the saw just stuck to it. I climb old school with a taughtline hitch and the only thing I did was switch ends and use the rope till it wore off. Good luck, Joe.


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## 2FatGuys

Flake the rope losely into a tub of lukewarm water with a generous amount of Woolite in it. Let it soak for a few hours. Rinse. Check rope for more pitch. Repeat if necessary.

It removes most of the sap but doesn't harm the ropes.


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## mic687

I cut a 80' white pine this spring had to climb it three times ( got so windy the first two times I could not top it safely in its tight location) by the third climb that sucker was oosing bad and it gummed up my two in one lanyard bad. I just kept using it until it wore off and it works good now after about 20climbs it was ok again. I am guessing you can wash your rope in a large washer at the launder mat and it will at least help get some of the sap out.


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## flushcut

Mineral Spirits will work well to clean up your saw but the climb line is another matter. I use a cheap line like Arborplex in pines figure that into the bill and now it's a light rigging line. I haven't spent much time up in pines lately because it's the year of the silver maple for us.


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## pdqdl

Get a laundry bag for washing clothes in. Loose, open weave that lets you toss in a load to wash without letting anything get out. Something like this: https://www.laundrybag.net/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=MESH

Just wash your rope inside the laundry bag, set the washer for heavy soiling, with no spin cycle. Use a hefty dose of regular laundry detergent.

You'll get a clean, wet rope, with only a few tangles, and not much time or money spent on it. Wet ropes dry without any special effort, and spinning them will probably shake the washer to pieces, since the load will almost certainly be off balance with a rope inside one laundry bag.

Last white pine we did, I thought the rope was ruined. A few days use, and it wasn't as sticky, but it was still stiff, dirty, and difficult to use. We washed it as described above, and it came out fluffy, soft, and white.


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## pdqdl

flushcut said:


> opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:



Yeah. Maybe we should make a sticky for all the "white pine sap on rope" problems. Nobody suggested peanut butter yet...


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## Maggies dad

The easiest way if you can find one is an extractor that is used to wash bunker gear at the fire house. The best cleaner is some citrus stuff that we use at the fire station, { cant remember the name right now} Anyway you just throw it in a mesh bag dump some cleaner / soap whatever in and come back in 45 min. I had to do my climb line last year after a pine take down and it was amazing. 1 time in the extractor and it looked, felt, and climbed like new.


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## TreeandLand

2FatGuys said:


> Flake the rope losely into a tub of lukewarm water with a generous amount of Woolite in it. Let it soak for a few hours. Rinse. Check rope for more pitch. Repeat if necessary.
> 
> It removes most of the sap but doesn't harm the ropes.



Thank you for this tip. I will try it soon. While I'm at it I'll wash my lanyard and 3 split tails as well. Damn white pines are a nusance.


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## TreeandLand

*thanks*



pdqdl said:


> Get a laundry bag for washing clothes in. Loose, open weave that lets you toss in a load to wash without letting anything get out. Something like this: https://www.laundrybag.net/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=MESH
> 
> Just wash your rope inside the laundry bag, set the washer for heavy soiling, with no spin cycle. Use a hefty dose of regular laundry detergent.
> 
> You'll get a clean, wet rope, with only a few tangles, and not much time or money spent on it. Wet ropes dry without any special effort, and spinning them will probably shake the washer to pieces, since the load will almost certainly be off balance with a rope inside one laundry bag.
> 
> Last white pine we did, I thought the rope was ruined. A few days use, and it wasn't as sticky, but it was still stiff, dirty, and difficult to use. We washed it as described above, and it came out fluffy, soft, and white.



Thanks for this advice too. I know I will be putting it to use. 
My arms are so tired from trying to force the VT hitch to advance when it was sticking to the rope. Pitch really does defeat the function of a friction hitch. I switched over to using a Blakes hitch later that day, which was easier to shove over the sticky parts. But when coming down it took a lot of yanking to get it to break free, and then I would drop 6 or 8 feet at a time. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Thanks again.


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## Lawnmowerboy48

Did a 65 foot 7 leader white pine removal two weeks ago. It was easier going up than coming down.


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*soak*

That the truth. Woolite works well. Give it a try..


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## Rftreeman

I just chew the sap off my ropes....


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## TreeandLand

*Multi-leader pines*



Lawnmowerboy48 said:


> Did a 65 foot 7 leader white pine removal two weeks ago. It was easier going up than coming down.



That sounds like one hell of a job- a 7 leader pine. The tree your talking about must have had about 3 or 4 cords of wood in it. We have some big nasty pines in Maine I would never want to attempt to take down. I'm sure Mass has it's share too. 
What I found to be the hardest part about multi-leader pines is that the crotch between them is where your rope gets jammed, and where you have to put your body when you cut each one. I made the mistake of rigging an eight foot chunk to a point a few feet above me...it traveled around the tree and hit me in the shoulder. Lucky it was only going about 5 miles per hour.


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## tree md

I used to have to do pines everyday when I lived in the Southeast. I never did anything special to my ropes but wash them periodically. If I washed them every time they got covered in pine sap I would be washing them everyday. I just kept climbing with the rope and the sap would rub off. I learned to climb on mostly pines so this was never a particular problem for me. I just looked at it as part of the job. I would wash my hands in straight gas to get the sap off but never really worried about the ropes. I never had it effect my climbing hitch either but that was back before I used a VT. 

I do very little work in Pines anymore. When I do I have an older Safety Blue line that I reserve for climbing in Pines or in muddy conditions so I can spare my good climbing line. I also use an older split tail with that line so I don't mess up my prussic cord.

Anyway, wash it if you want but it will be good as new after a couple of climbs anyway.


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## flushcut

pdqdl said:


> Yeah. Maybe we should make a STICKY for all the "white pine sap on rope" problems. Nobody suggested peanut butter yet...



I like the fact you said STICKY in reference to sticky lines, so true. I did try the woolite thing on a shirt of mine that looked like I had bathed in pitch and it had come out cleaner but not spotless. I have a few pines to dead wood coming up in the next few weeks so I'll give it a try on my lines next.


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## millbilly

I'm old school and still prefer three strand safety blue. Believe it or not Ive all ways liked climbing a big white pine with a brand new rope. I t might be a pain for the next few trees but after that I felt it gave me better grip making hip-thrusting alot easier and the rope didn't't wear as bad.


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## lync

Gojo or goop hand cleaner, w/o the pumice. Auto parts stores sell it rub it in let it sit for a while and rinse w/ water


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## tree md

lync said:


> Gojo or goop hand cleaner, w/o the pumice. Auto parts stores sell it rub it in let it sit for a while and rinse w/ water



Those hand cleaners are petroleum based. Absolutely terrible on ropes as it is corrosive. I wouldn't be using that on any of my ropes. I go to great lengths to make sure I keep my ropes separated from my gas and bar oil during transport just for that reason.


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## 2FatGuys

:agree2:


tree md said:


> Those hand cleaners are petroleum based. Absolutely terrible on ropes as it is corrosive. I wouldn't be using that on any of my ropes. I go to great lengths to make sure I keep my ropes separated from my gas and bar oil during transport just for that reason.


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## lync

I stand corrected,petroleum distilates in hand cleaner. i was led to believe the main ingrediant was mineral spirits. I guess Tecnu is my new choice. thanks for the info.


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## moray

tree md said:


> Those hand cleaners are petroleum based. Absolutely terrible on ropes as it is corrosive...



Do you have some evidence for this? The pumice in Goop is obviously abrasive, but the chemicals are "corrosive?" 

Our plastic ropes are almost completely inert to common hydrocarbon solvents. The evidence for this comes from engineering tables for fibers such as polyester or nylon where their resistance to various chemicals is listed. You can also generate your own evidence with a simple experiment. (I once soaked some fibers in a test tube full of acetone for 10 days. At the end, there was no evident effect.)

This makes it easy to remove pitch (made of various terpenes, another hydrocarbon) with simple solvents such as acetone or denatured alcohol. I have used both of those for years to rub out the pitchy spots. The rope is instantly ready for reuse and there has never been the slightest evidence of any ill effect. 

The downside of _any_ treatment capable of dissolving pitch is that it will also dissove the wax with which the rope is treated during manufacture. This seems like a small price to pay for a clean rope.


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## tree md

Most hand cleaners I have used have been labeled as petroleum based. Unless they have changed ingredients, that is the only evidence I have.

I would however defer to your experience and knowledge of rope. I haven't put in the time nor experimentation on rope stress that you have. All I have is field experience and have been taught from the very beginning that gas and oil is very damaging to rope. I have also been taught to store them in different areas and keep them separated during transportation as I have done for my whole career.

I have heard that acetone is good for removing pitch and dirt and even read it in a book (though I can't remember witch).

Maybe I am the one who stands corrected... I'm still not going to be using petroleum based cleaners on my ropes anytime soon.


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## moray

Thanks for your measured reply, Tree MD. I am completely sympathetic to anyone who hesitates to use organic "solvents" on a rope--it sounds risky. 

On the other hand, all the folk remedies like tomato juice, peanut butter, Woolite, laundry detergent, and the like are mixtures of organic chemicals that we simply assume, in our ignorance, to be harmless. Or the pitch itself--why do we think it is harmless to the rope?

I wish the rope manufacturer's would lay this to rest and officially declare that pitch can be safely removed with chemicals A, B, and C, all easily obtained from the hardware store. Then we could all sleep at night and we would all have clean ropes.


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## tree md

Personally, I just wash them periodically in a front loading washing machine at the laundry mat, in cold water, with ivory soap. I don't really want to be experimenting with harsh chemicals or solvents on a rope that my lfe is literally on the line with everyday.

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread, Pine pitch has never been that big of a headache to me because pines are what I mostly climbed when I started out. It will rub off on the next tree you climb, get covered in sap again and rub off again. It's just part of the job when you work with a lot of pines.


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## pdqdl

I have contacted Samson rope and Yale cordage with the following question:

*********************************************************************
Does [rope manufacturer] have a recommended procedure for cleaning arborist ropes? 

Problems to contend with are: Gas, Oil, pine pitch. 

Some suggested solutions listed at ArboristSite.com: 
wash in laundry, using laundry soap 
soak in woolite 
hand wash in acetone 
hand wash with handcleaner 
hand wash in gasoline 

possible problems anticipated: 
degradation of rope strength 
removal of protective coatings 
impregnation with grit or other damaging matierials
*****************************************************************

Let's see if either of them have any comments!


*New England Ropes has this to say about rope maintenance:*

_"Dirt and Cleaning

Dirt on a rope can penetrate the cover strands resulting in abrasion in the core as well as the cover. Water facilitates the introduction of dirt particles into the rope. When climbing in wet conditions, particularly over rock or other areas where dirt is an issue, we recommend using a dry-treated water repellency on the rope.

After a climb, wash rope with fresh water and allow to air dry in direct sunlight. For a more thorough cleaning, soak your rope in warm water mixed with a mild detergent. Add a small amount of fabric softener to soften the rope. When possible, use a front loading washing machine; otherwise, wash your rope in a mesh bag or pillowcase to avoid tangling. Rinse thoroughly and hang to dry in indirect sunlight.
"_

As I stated before, and tree md seems to agree, just throw your dirty old rope in the washing machine.

Hopefully, we will resolve this problem with an official consensus from the big three rope manufacturers.


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## pdqdl

Samson does state that UV does not degrade their Amsteel Blue, and that petroleum products will not damage it, either. They DO state that it should NOT be exposed to bleach.

Along that line, I would guess that bleaching any rope would be a bad idea.


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## flushcut

Did anybody try bleach as a cleaner to add to the long list of voodoo cures?:monkey:


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## moray

pdqdl said:


> ...As I stated before, and tree md seems to agree, just throw your dirty old rope in the washing machine...



Pdqdl, one problem with the washing machine idea is that you expose the whole rope to the treatment when there are only 4 spots with some pitch on them. If the mild detergent or whatever is really able to dissolve the pitch (I am dubious) you now have the dissolved pitch everywhere in the water volume, including throughout the wetted rope. Parts of the rope that were previously as clean as the driven snow now are soaked with dilute pitch. Some of it will certainly stay there. 

Using a tiny rag dampened with acetone, I can rub out just the affected spots leaving the rest of the rope unaffected. My method will also leave some pitch in the rope--that is unavoidable--but I like the idea of a local remedy for a local problem.

Good on you, BTW, for contacting the manufacturers! If their legal departments don't get in the way, maybe they will tell you something useful.


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## tree md

Washing your ropes in the washing machine will help with the pitch but like I said, if you deal with pines on a daily basis you will be doing a lot of washing. I never really let it worry me too much. It did not effect my friction hitch or impede my climbing and I would be in a Pine the next day so I would just let it hop. Ropes are made to be worked and get dirty. Just part of the game. And I never was into polishing off my ropes at the end of a long, hard day, I am more into polishing off an ice cold beer.

The reason for washing the ropes in the machine is not necessarily to git rid of the pine sap, it is to clean them and free them from the fine grit that invariably works it's way into the core of the rope and destroys the fibers from the inside out. That's why every manufacturer recommends washing the whole rope in a machine periodically.


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## pdqdl

I had never considered the "localized cleaning" problem. 

Every time our ropes get sticky in a white pine, EVERYTHING is sticky. Climber, climbers clothes, lanyard, hair, skin, chainsaw handles, steering wheel of truck... basically anything that got touched that day.

When we get a white pine, it is invariable perfectly healthy, and having a good time flowing sap up the tree to get even with us for cutting on it. White pines literally rain sap in the summertime, at least in this part of the country.


I was training a climber last year (who said he had been doing it for years! Ho! Ho! Ho! ) that got stuck in the white pine pitch, because his Blake's hitch would not slide down. He was completely exhausted because he lacked technique and wouldn't trust his equipment, so he was always using up his burly arm strength until it was all gone. He finally got down before we 
could arrange to cut him down, but it took at least 45 minutes. No, he never went up another tree for me.


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## pdqdl

*Samson Rope responds:*

This is the entirety of what Samson had to say to my inquiry posted above:

**************************************************************
Hello David,

Assuming these are polyester ropes, then the acetone and gasoline are no problem for the fiber itself, however you are correct-that they will probably remove the coatings on the ropes. If these are polypro ropes then it's a different story.

I would suggest starting out with the mildest cleaner and working up from there if needed, so start with the soaps then work up to the chemical cleaners.

Thank you,

[ name deleted by PDQDL]
Technical Service Rep
**************************************************************

You'll probably notice that they did not respond to the issue of machine washing. I'm pretty sure that no amount of machine wash will be equal to the abuse we put the ropes through.


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## moray

Great work, pdqdl! The next time I recommend acetone I'll have an actual source I can cite.


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## moray

*Detergent vs Pitch*

Various people have recommended using mild soap, Woolite, or detergent to clean pitch from ropes. I decided to test the efficacy of strong detergent. In a test tube I put a mixture of 3 parts water and one part liquid laundry detergent. For those who are math challenged, this would be roughly the equivalent of using a gallon of liquid detergent to wash a rope in the washing machine.

I collected fresh glistening pitch from an Eastern white pine using the head of a galvanized nail. After collecting roughly 3 drops of pitch, I plunked the nail into the soap (first photo).







The next day, 15 hours later, it looked unchanged. When I shook it, however, many small bits broke loose and it was clear that some of the pitch had dissolved. I shook it at least a dozen times over the next 15 hours, and it appeared the nail was slowly getting cleaner. The next photo shows the nail 30 hours after the beginning of the experiment.






A small amount of pitch still adheres to the nail, and there is still a cloud of small undissolved bits, not clear in the photo, swimming in the wash.


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## treeclimber101

Think of it as a 200 mistake replace it and next time use a false crotch , or save the jacked up rope for pine trees ...


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## Labman

Ordinary liquid cooking oil will cut a lot of stuff. It doesn't produce flammable fumes. It doesn't evaporate either. You may still need to finish up with soap and water.


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## pdqdl

That is a nice experiment, Moray, but it really isn't good chemistry. I don't know if you are familiar with the concept of solubility, but three drops in a test tube might not be equivalent to a pitchy rope in a tub of water.

Since you have the pine pitch source worked out, why don't you take a small section of clean rope (one of your exploded splices should work nicely), pitch it up real good, and then test it in some woolite, or just toss it in the washer?

I don't have any photo's but I wish I took some pictures of the last rope I washed. It came out looking new.


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## pdqdl

*Yale Cordage responds with an excellent answer!*

This is NOT what you would expect. Who would have thought it? 
*Use PINE SOL for removing pine pitch from ropes!* 
(and your ropes will smell so clean and fresh, too!)

They are distinctly against acetone or gasoline on ropes.

Yale took a while, but they finally sent me this answer:

*********[ Yale Cordage added comments are shown in bold italic]*****************
*David, I hope this helps.*

Does Yale cordage have a recommended procedure for cleaning arborist ropes? *Yes, non abrasive cleansers with a preference to an all natural cleaner*

Problems to contend with are: Gas, Oil, pine pitch. 

Some suggested solutions listed at ArboristSite.com: 
wash in laundry, using laundry soap - *as long as it is non abrasive - no bleach*
soak in Woolite - 
hand wash in acetone - *absolutely not!!*
hand wash with hand cleaner - 
hand wash in gasoline - *Absolutely not!!!*

possible problems anticipated: 

degradation of rope strength
removal of protective coatings
impregnation with grit or other damaging materials

*Our recommendation is to use Pine Sol to remove pine sap. Its all natural and when used in moderation it can remove sap.

Do not under any circumstances use anything like gas or acetone to clean your ropes. They may look ok when done but they will fail due to the high chemical concentration.

When cleaning a rope, its amazing what just a little water in a bucket will do 

I hope this helps,

Kind regards,

[name deleted by pdqdl]
Senior Account Manager
Yale Cordage
77 Industrial Park Rd
Saco, Maine 04072
*


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## flushcut

And the plot thickens! I have not used anything on my lines sense climbing a pine and the next tree an ash used the same line and the pitch just wore off.


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## treesquirrel

I put my ropes in the jaccuzi tub with woolite and turn on the jets every so often for a day and then run them through a wash cycle with very light soap. Seems to work very well for me.


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## moray

*Experiment Update*

After being away for about 3 days, I returned to find the nail was completely clean. When I shook the test tube, a hazy cloud of emulsified pitch swirled up from the bottom to fill the tube. 



pdqdl said:


> That is a nice experiment, Moray, but it really isn't good chemistry...



Bad chemistry? Hmmmm...I don't remember saying anything at all about chemistry when I described my test tube experiment. I drew no conclusions, made no predictions or comparisons, made no mention of washing machines. I simply described exactly what I did and what I saw--the raw ingredients of good experimental science.

But I did intend the experiment to isolate the chemistry from the much more complicated situation of the washing machine. Having completed the chemistry experiment, I am now entitled to offer an opinion about the chemistry: very concentrated laundry detergent is only feebly able to remove pitch from a rope, and it does so by forming an emulsion with the pitch. Acetone and denatured alcohol rapidly dissolve the pitch completely. If you merely want to rub out the pitchy spots, you probably won't have much luck with laundry detergent.

The undisputed testimony of many that the washing machine delivers nice clean ropes, coupled with the evidence from my bad chemistry experiment that even very concentrated laundry detergent is extremely slow in removing pitch, tells us that all that rope flexing and rubbing that goes on in the machine plays a huge role in getting the rope clean in one short wash cycle.


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## pdqdl

Moray! I admire your contributions to this forum too much. Please don't presume that I am offering you any harsh criticism. You seem to have been offended by my comments. I sincerely apologize. 

"Not good chemistry" is quite a bit different from calling your work "bad chemistry". I didn't say that it wasn't a good experiment, nor that it didn't show what you wanted it to show. In fact, I seem to recall stating that it was a "nice experiment" I was only trying to say that it didn't qualify as a thorough and complete chemical analysis of the situation. Since this is "arborist" site, and not "chemistry" site, I didn't really go any further with it.

Your test tube experiment does a nice job of showing that pine pitch does dissolve in a soapy solution. What is doesn't really show is whether that is effective at washing ropes, since the concentrations and type of agitation are considerably different. We should also consider that pine pitch may undergo some chemical changes when it dries on a rope.

There is an entire branch of chemistry that is somewhat dedicated to the science of solutions and solubility. It's called "Quantitative Analysis". My simple and only point was that while you were able to determine that soap would cause (wet) pine pitch to go into solution, you were not able to say how much soap was required to do the job, nor how effectively it would remove dry pitch. 

***************************************************************

You could have some fun with this by trying the same test a few different ways. With my strong background in chemistry, I quickly came up with these related but unknown tests that could be run for more information

1. Test with NO soap added: this would tell us how much pine sap dissolves in water. Good measurements would be helpful.

2. Using lower concentrations of soap in larger amounts of water. I suspect that wet pine pitch will dissolve better with less soap. 3:1 is pretty strong.

3. Try mixing pine pitch with straight soap, see how that compares to the straight water.

4, Try any of the above tests on dried out pine pitch, which will probably be available running down the side of the tree you have been testing. I would expect very different solubility, since most of the pine sap is composed of volatile elements. If a significant part of the pine sap will not mix with water, but the water immiscible elements evaporate away, how well do the resins that remain mix with water/soap/detergent?

I'm just making some experimental suggestions, since you seem to enjoy the quest for knowledge.


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## moray

pdqdl said:


> I sincerely apologize.


 Pdqdl, now I feel bad. The devil made me do it. I knew you meant no insult and none was taken, but somehow my words came out as if I were miffed. I apologize for whiny tone of my post.



> We should also consider that pine pitch may undergo some chemical changes when it dries on a rope.



This is a good point and probably helps explain why the pitch problem just goes away even if you don't wash your ropes. Old pitch drops, like those that fell on my car a few months ago, become powdery and somewhat crystalline. The volatile components soon escape, and the double bonds in the terpenes left behind should be readily attacked by UV and atmospheric ozone. Once this process has rendered the pitch non-sticky and somewhat crystalline, the ordinary flexing of the rope in use should simply flake away whatever is left.

At first I was dismayed that our two "authorities" from the rope manufacturers gave contradictory advice about the use of acetone and the like for removing pitch. Then I realized this was a "teachable moment," as they say. We defer to them as authorities because they should be trustworthy and they should know much more than we do. We want to pose our questions to them and take their answers to the bank. End of story. 

Now we have to rethink all of that. They aren't both right--maybe neither is. We are back where we started, not having definitive answers to our questions, and not knowing how to recognize or find an expert who knows the answers.

I like your list of proposed experiments, but I have another I want to do first. The individual strands that make up 1/2 inch TreeMaster each have a tensile strength of about 80 lbs. If I pull two strands out of the same piece of rope and soak one in acetone for a few days, I can then separately test them for tensile strength. While I'm at it I'll soak another strand in denatured alcohol, and maybe one in PineSol.


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## CNBTreeTrimming

treesquirrel said:


> I put my ropes in the jaccuzi tub with woolite and turn on the jets every so often for a day and then run them through a wash cycle with very light soap. Seems to work very well for me.



I think this sounds logical. Jump in the jaccuzi after a hard day to loosen up so why shouldn't that relax a dirty rope and get it ready for the next day?


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## flushcut

CNBTreeTrimming said:


> I think this sounds logical. Jump in the jaccuzi after a hard day to loosen up so why shouldn't that relax a dirty rope and get it ready for the next day?



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## pdqdl

moray said:


> ...
> I like your list of proposed experiments, but I have another I want to do first. The individual strands that make up 1/2 inch TreeMaster each have a tensile strength of about 80 lbs. If I pull two strands out of the same piece of rope and soak one in acetone for a few days, I can then separately test them for tensile strength. While I'm at it I'll soak another strand in denatured alcohol, and maybe one in PineSol.



Is your tensile strength setup sensitive enough for just a couple of strands? I would think that you would need a few more than a couple.

This could get interesting! Your testing of strength reduction is an excellent idea, and is much closer to our interests than some arcane solubility tests. It occurs to me that testing ropes made of of different fibers would be of great interest. Do you recall that the manufacturers all listed bleach as a no-no? Quite frankly, I would start my testing there, and with plain water as a standard, to see if I could establish a range of decline in tensile strength.

Let me know if you need any fibers. I have some used rope sitting around in Stable Braid, Arborplex (I think), some of the cheap rope from Bailey's, a short chunk of Velocity, and I could sacrifice a little bit of my Beeline. I have some other types, but I am not willing to sacrifice any of my good, intact ropes.

P.S.: You didn't sound "whiny" at all. "Miffed" is a more apt description, but it sort of makes sense given the circumstances. You put in the hard work to do all these unsolicited experiments, and some impertinent twit comes along and offers criticism? Let 'em have it with both barrels...


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## moray

I have the results of my experiments to determine the weakening effect of various treatments on residual fiber strength. All the strands tested came from the same piece of slightly used 1/2-inch Samson Treemaster. These are the smallest strands in the rope--162 of them--all made of filament polyester. The tested strands, about 30 inches long, were subjected to 5 treatments (thanks to pdqdl for suggesting #2 and #3):
1. No treatment (control).
2. Soaked in water for 66 hours.
3. Soaked in full-strength household bleach for 66 hours.
4. Soaked in acetone for 72 hours.
5. Soaked in denatured alcohol for 72 hours.

After removal from their respective baths, the samples were air dried for 24 hours. The bleach sample received special treatment and was rinsed thoroughly in tap water before air drying. Since 3 strands were subjected to each treatment, there were 15 samples to break by pulling between two 1/2-inch stainless steel pins.

Results in lbs for each treatment:

1. 48,50,54
2. 50,50,52
3. 48,52,46
4. 50,48,50
5. 46,48,44

General comments. These results don't show that any of the treatments, compared to the control, are harmless. Nor do they show that any of the treatments are harmful! Well, then, do they show anything at all?

Even though 3 samples is normally a ridiculously small sample size in a statistics experiment, it depends on the question you are trying to answer. If you are looking for a big difference between the control and an experimental group, then a small sample can detect it. And if time is a factor, as it surely must be in the chemical degradation of polyester, then a long exposure time also adds power and resolution to the experiment. 

Conclusion: it may well be that ALL of the treatments are damaging to the fibers (likely true), but are any of the treatments highly damaging? Clearly not, not even after 3 days of soaking. For a very short exposure of the sort needed to rub out a patch of pitch, the damage to the rope, if any, must be essentially undetectable and therefore negligible.

The guy from Yale Cordage:
_"hand wash in acetone - absolutely not!!

Do not under any circumstances use anything like gas or acetone to clean your ropes. They may look ok when done but they will fail due to the high chemical concentration."_ 
This is nuts. Where is the evidence? Fail at what tension? What high chemical concentration? We wanted sound engineering advice from these guys, but got fearmongering instead.


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## pdqdl

I think you got it down pretty well, Moray. I really didn't think alcohol or acetone would make any difference.

I think that it is interesting that bleach seemed to have no effect, despite it's widely rejected use on ropes. It is a pretty strongly reactive chemical, and I would have expected some red-ox reactions to occur, weakening the rope if exposed long enough. But then again, maybe not? We have been washing our clothes in bleach for a long time, and it is not commonly believed that it makes the fibers in our clothes weaker.

Are you good at statistics? It would be interesting to see a chi-square analysis of the small sample size to find out if the differences observed are "statistically significant". Maybe someone else on line will pick up your numbers and run with it?

I would do it, but I would be digging very deep into my math background to pull that off. It's been about 30 years.


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## moray

pdqdl said:


> ...but I would be digging very deep into my math background to pull that off. It's been about 30 years.



Well, I dusted off my statistics book (way more than 30 yrs for me!) and think I have it figured out.

The control group broke at 48, 50 and 54 lbs. for a mean value of 50.67. The ethanol group seemed most degraded by the long soak with a mean breaking strength of 46 lbs. The 3 tensile measurements clustered rather closely at 46, 48 and 44 lbs. 

The question is: is there some real degradation going on or could those 3 low tensile values be accounted for by the normal variability in any kind of sampling process? It's like flipping a coin--once in awhile you'll get 3 heads in a row. If you did, you couldn't then conclude that the coin wasn't fair, just that you were unlikely to see such an outcome with a fair coin.

Mathematically we ask: what is the probability that the observed low values could be observed by chance assuming there was no experimental effect of the ethanol soak? The answer (using Student's t test) surprised me. Only about once in 36 times would you expect such a cluster of readings if the alcohol was doing no harm.

This strongly suggests that denatured alcohol (which contains several compounds besides ethanol) is mildly harmful to polyester rope.

I think I may repeat this experiment, this time soaking 6 strands for two weeks. The results should be interesting and maybe conclusive.


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## pdqdl

Perhaps you should test using some more common variety of alcohol, like say...Jim Beam, or some variety of Seagrams. 

Climbing rope is MUCH more likely to be exposed to that kind of alcohol !


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## inbilya

2FatGuys said:


> Flake the rope losely into a tub of lukewarm water with a generous amount of Woolite in it. Let it soak for a few hours. Rinse. Check rope for more pitch. Repeat if necessary.
> 
> It removes most of the sap but doesn't harm the ropes.


which Woolite product? dark? there is a few to choose from. what do you mean by "generous amount"? is that like half of bathtub to 100 oz woolite?


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## inbilya

found an interesting link about sap removal from camping gear (not climbing line) , but still an interesting read. http://www.hikelight.com/63howtocleanpitchandtreesapfromyourgearorhands.html


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## inbilya

sunbrella recomends Turpentine (100%), Dishwashing liquid (2 oz.) / 1 gallon water, for tree sap removal, I don't know how safe it is for climbing lines. I am in search for an answer ASAP


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## unclemoustache

The neat thing about white pine is the evenly spaced branches. I don't use a rope on them - just climb up the branch ladder, trimming off all but a couple stumps as I go.


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## JeffGu

If you have a low-suds washer without the agitator up the middle of the tub, you can throw your ropes in there and wash them.  If you have pine pitch on them, use a rag and WD-40 to clean it off the rope, then throw it in the washing machine. The best thing I've found, that is safe for all non-organic rope fibers, is this stuff... usually available in the organic/environmentally friendly section of grocery stores.


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