# E Classic 1400 - Getting Close



## upsnake (Dec 22, 2010)

It is getting close.  I had the unit delivered today, I still need to hook up the pex and the electricity. As well as do all of the plumbing work inside. I have to figure out if i can use the side arm hx with my water heater. The manual said if your WH has a high temp gas shut off then you can't use it, and it is looking like my does.  So have to look into that.


Which is going to make it even more painful of a delay since the furnace is here.  



















Just wanted to say thanks to everybody on here for all your help both directly answering some of my questions and indirectly by sharing your knowledge. 


Jay


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## Firechief (Dec 22, 2010)

upsnake,

Good luck with the stove. I have the 2300 for the second season now and absolutely love it. It will take some learning to get to know the stove and how it acts under certain conditions but after that its smooth sailing!


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## johnnylabguy (Dec 24, 2010)

good luck upsnake. I'll be looking forward to lots of install pics and updates on burntimes and such! What kind of square footage are you looking to heat with that unit?


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## upsnake (Dec 25, 2010)

Thanks Johnny

My house is a 10 year "standard" insulated house. It does seem to have pretty good windows. It is 1950 sq feet, with one second having a tall ceiling for a balcony area. The unfinished basement is heated as well (ducts running through out). That is not included in the above sq feet.

I don't have it up and running yet. I wanted to work on it today but the wife didn't like that idea, something about Christmas. Haha 

I am a little cheezed about the water heater though. If i am reading the instruction manual correctly, it says that if your DHW has a high temp limit switch using the side arm HX could trip the switch. Then with a gas DHW it appears the if the switch gets trips is not resettable. Thus not allowing the gas to turn on again (for the summer). 

The dhw said it trips at 190, i would assume if the boiler is running at 185, that it would heat the dhw to that same temp. 5 degrees is not a lot of cushion.  

I was planning on buying an electric dhw, and just plumbing it with the side arm hx, then put a valve that i can switch between the gas one and the electric one, that way i can use the electric in the winter and the gas one in the summer.

I still have to redo the plenum on my furnace to get the HX in there. So i have some work to do still but i am really excited to get it up and running. Haha 
I will keep ya updated.


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## johnnylabguy (Dec 26, 2010)

Well make sure you keep us all posted as there aren't too many out there with the 1400 classic who are! I'm actually heating about the same numbers square footage wise upstairs and a basement too with my current unit. You may be a little colder up there but I'll bet my built in 1948 house in the middle of a flat field trumps it when it you factor in the wind! Just got some more new windows installed so I'm slowly working at the old factors. The kitchen is at least a degree warmer compared to last week! Keep us posted! Pics are great too!


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## varna (Dec 26, 2010)

upsnake,
another option is to install a water to water hx just "downstream" of your hwh in your dhw feed to your house. You will have "on demand" hot water....all you can use all day long.....and you do not have to keep the water in the tank hot at all. Just turn off your hwh when using owb, turn it back on in summer. That's what I have and love it. I'm using a 10 plate with 3 girls, 2 in-laws, 2 dishwashers, 2 clothes washers.......never had a hot water issue.


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## upsnake (Dec 26, 2010)

Varna - I did thing about that as well, couple questions for ya, what is the BTU usage on your plate exchanger, also if you don't mind what kind and roughly how much was it? 

My owb says that it can do 104k btu for 8 hours, The furnace hx is 140k btu. 

So if i am understanding this correctly (good chance i am not haha). If the furnace ran for 1 hour, i would have pulled 140k btu out of my water, and the owb would have only replaced 104k. So when the furnace shuts off my water temp in the owb is lower and will need roughly a half hour to recover. (replacing the missing 40k btu).

So if i put a plate water to water hx in, and it is say 50k btu, if the furnace was running and water was being used i would be pulling 200k from my owb water and only replacing it with 104k. So i was thinking i might not have enough "owb heat" to put a setup like that in. If that logic makes any sense what so ever. haha


Also do you have any pics of your install? On demand water does sounds like a pretty good option, especially with a wife that likes to take LONG showers. 

She was not super happy with me, when we bought the house I had to replace the DHW and only got a 40 gallon take. Haha


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## upsnake (Dec 26, 2010)

Johnny - Ya the wind can be a killer. My parents house is that way, just plopped in the middle of a field. I am lucky that i have a lot of trees around me, and i am in a 80 foot valley, so we miss a lot of the wind. 
(not really a valley in the sense of one for somebody who has mountains in their state, as MI is flat, but rather a big depression a half mile wide and several miles long haha)

The only thing that concerns me this is is lack of seasoned wood. I decided to put the owb in in October, then spent all my time working on the install and none collecting wood. Oh well. 

The 10 day temp for here, is ranging from highs of 37 to lows of 17.


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## Steveguy (Dec 26, 2010)

If you want to run a sidearm without kicking out the WH overtemp, just lower the boiler setpoint. I lowered mine from 185 to 175 and haven't kicked out mine since. I have a forced draft gas waterheater and it did trip out before. On mine it doesn't reset by itself, you have to remove a cover to gain access and reset the overtemp manually. Most waterheaters should be the same. Even at 175 you should have plenty of heat available, unless the E-classic won't let you adjust the water setpoint. 
The plate exchangers are nice too, allowing almost unlimited hot water, if the boiler can keep up.


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## superwd6 (Dec 26, 2010)

Upsnake, I think your waterheater will be just fine. Your gas control is @ the bottom of your tank correct? If you run you boiler @ the maximum 185 temp the water heater is always below that as the closer the two temps get the less it will thermosyphon. Check your manual for heat exchanger temp differencece for boiler systems & you'll see what I mean. Eg boiler 180 - heat exchanged water will be 10 to 15 * lower.
I have the E-Classic 2300 & a Rheem propane water heater with an external temp sensor. My DWH has the same 190 * limit on a manual reset & has never tripped. My boiler runs 188 most times & 192 on ocasion .
I'm a furnace guy & have worked for the gas company who rents water heaters. The bottom temp of your tank is always lower than the top so if your heater like all gas ones has the valve @ the bottom, hook it up & don't worry:biggrinbounce2:


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## upsnake (Dec 26, 2010)

Well i got the power hooked up. Tomorrow is hooking up the pump / return lines and installing the chimney.

The LED's Haha (sorry insignificant I know but just having power to the unit felt a big accomplishment to me haha)












Superwd6 and Steveguy -- Thanks so much, i have been banging my head against the wall with the DHW thing. I will check the water heater tomorrow for the reset switch. As long as their is a reset switch i wouldn't think it would be that big of a deal if it did trip it, it would be off (as far as gas all winter). In the spring just reset it and go back to gas.

Now i just need to find someplace that sells the sheet metal to redo the plenum and i am in business.

I got a 1/3 of a cord of ash from my brother today and bought 1.75 cords of mixed wood (mostly ash some oak and some elm) today for 110 dollars. That will the little bit of wood that i already have should get me started.


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## superwd6 (Dec 27, 2010)

Tell me what your water heter model # is?


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## upsnake (Dec 27, 2010)

It is a GE Model # GP40T06AVR10

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/ge/40-gal-fvir-lp-gas-tall-6-year-32k-btu-42204.html


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## superwd6 (Dec 28, 2010)

Upsnake, that water heater uses the valve Central boiler warns you about. If the 190*f limit is tripped it IS internal & part of the gas valve. The complete valve that your temp dial is on has to be replaced. Here you can't even buy the part without showing the proper licence to install it. See what an electric water heater would cost verses repairing your propane one if that valve did trip it's limit. All electric I have seen use external limits that you just push a reset button on if tripped so it may be a safer way to go cost wise And you would'nt need to power it anyways. You'll love that boiler after all the haslle of getting it in:hmm3grin2orange:


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## upsnake (Dec 28, 2010)

Haha rats, ya that was what i was thinking it was going to be.  

I guess the only thing then that i need to check into is, I could take the side arm back and just run a plate hx only for dhw. I have seen a couple of posts where people appear to be doing that. 

I am just not sure on the plate sizing and the boiler sizing. If that does appear to be a viable option looks like i will be buying an electric water heater.

Thanks for your help.


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## 1harlowr (Dec 28, 2010)

With the price of propane, I'd be getting the hx hooked up asap. Worry about the dhw after your house is being heated. :monkey:


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## upsnake (Dec 28, 2010)

Haha, I know gas sucks  I am still working on getting the plenum redesigned though. Hoping for the end of the week to be able to get the inside plumbing done. 

I just had a fill up of the propane tank. From 5% to full was 700 dollars.


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## jackel440 (Dec 28, 2010)

I have a 30 plate that I will be installing as soon as I get done building my gasification boiler.(hopefully the end of this week)MY friend is using a 30 plate for his family of 5 ,and has never ran out of hot water.I had been told a 20 plate would be more than enough,but I had already bought the 30 plate.
Good luck


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## upsnake (Dec 28, 2010)

How much was the 20 plate if you don't mind me asking. 
What size furnace are you putting in? 
I assume you are planning on heating your house as well. 
I am still struggling with the btu calc for running both the furnace and a plate hx if my owb would keep up or not. 

I am thinking that a plate hx is the way to go (beats paying 300 for a new water heater).


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## jackel440 (Dec 28, 2010)

upsnake said:


> How much was the 20 plate if you don't mind me asking.
> What size furnace are you putting in?
> I assume you are planning on heating your house as well.
> I am still struggling with the btu calc for running both the furnace and a plate hx if my owb would keep up or not.
> ...



I think I gave about $180 for the 30 plate.(I got it through a buddy at dealer cost from Natures Comfort in Shipshewana,IN)Thier 20 plate retails for $201.29
According to the info I got from NC my 30 plate will produce 86,000 btu/hr with 160F water input at 15 GPM.
Thier 20 plate with the same flow specs is 78,000 btu/hr.
I am building my own gasification boiler.410 gallons of water in the water jacket.I have a 10 page build thread over on another site.
http://**************************/forum/index.php?topic=642.0
there is a link to it if you want to check it out.Lots of awesome info on these furnaces over there.
good luck to you.


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## applefarmer (Dec 28, 2010)

upsnake said:


> I am still struggling with the btu calc for running both the furnace and a plate hx if my owb would keep up or not.
> 
> 
> Upsnake, don't worry too much about this. Plumb your dhw before your furnace hx. You should only pull 15-20 degrees of heat from the water with the dhw hx. Even if your water temp from the boiler is down to 170 and you pull it to 150-155 there is still a ton of heat for your furnace. Sure you won't be getting the full rated btu's that you would if you had 180 water, so your furnace fan runs a little longer...no big deal. Then when nobody is taking a shower you don't lose any heat to the dhw hx (well very little).
> ...


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## 04ultra (Dec 28, 2010)

upsnake said:


> Haha, I know gas sucks  I am still working on getting the plenum redesigned though. Hoping for the end of the week to be able to get the inside plumbing done.
> 
> I just had a fill up of the propane tank. From 5% to full was 700 dollars.



1.67 locked in for propane for me........2.05 off the truck price last week ........I cant wait to be burnin wood..




.


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## upsnake (Dec 28, 2010)

Ok so i know I am probably just being dumb but... I am a software engineer not plumber.  haha


If i was to put the plate hx in, I would could send that right to my hot water line for the house. I wouldn't need to send the heated water to a hot water heater correct?

If that is the case it seems like that is certainly the way to go. It appears that a 20 or 30 plate hx would be sufficient. I will go look up some tankless water heater sizing charts to get a better idea of how many gpm i would need.

Once again thanks for your help.


Applefarmer - My current propane furnace is 80k btu, the hx I have is 140k btu so i would think i should be ok as far as being oversized.


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## applefarmer (Dec 28, 2010)

Yep you are good. You have to remember your propane furnace should have been sized to run constant only for the coldest days of the season. So most of the time your house probably only requires 30,000-40,000 btu's per hour. You will be surprised how low the water temp can be from the boiler to get that out of a 140,000 rated hx.


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## varna (Dec 29, 2010)

upsnake said:


> Ok so i know I am probably just being dumb but... I am a software engineer not plumber.  haha
> 
> 
> If i was to put the plate hx in, I would could send that right to my hot water line for the house. I wouldn't need to send the heated water to a hot water heater correct?
> ...


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## upsnake (Dec 29, 2010)

Varna: Do you remember on your 10 plate hx, what the gpm were for a 90 degree rise.

I was looking at some hx that when in the 4 gpm range were like 200k btu hx and were like 30 plate hx. 

Maybe i don't need that many gpm though. Haha I will try to find a plate hx today and get it ordered, then skip adding the second water heater. Less plumbing, and no new water heater to buy. Haha


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## varna (Dec 30, 2010)

upsnake,
The 10 plate I recieved was a model LB31-10 here is the chart:

http://www.americanroyal.net/page/page/4344238.htm

This is who (Anderson's) I bought my pumps, hx's, and pex piping for house and underground from. They had the best prices (apples to apples) that I could find at the time and sized everything for me as per what I wanted to heat. They were great to deal with.


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## Steveguy (Dec 31, 2010)

upsnake said:


> Varna - I did thing about that as well, couple questions for ya, what is the BTU usage on your plate exchanger, also if you don't mind what kind and roughly how much was it?
> 
> My owb says that it can do 104k btu for 8 hours, The furnace hx is 140k btu.
> 
> ...


 
upsnake, the rating of 104000 BTU for 8 hrs has more to do with fuel load than the boilers max output. If you look at the output curve on Central boilers website, it shows the curve going up over 200,000 btu for 4hrs. In other words, if the boiler is working harder, the wood goes away sooner, if it spends more time idle, you get longer time out of a fuel load. Your boiler will respond to an intermittant load and recover much faster than you are thinking.


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## Steveguy (Dec 31, 2010)

http://www.centralboiler.com/e-classic.html

Here is a link to CB website with output curves on E-classic boilers.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok so last question on the topic. 

If you were using a plate HX with out a storage tank, is there a way to control the output temp or would you have fluctuation when either the well pump comes on and you get more pressure in your water lines, or if the water temp from the OWB dips a little bit?

That and if it is capable of heating the water 90 degrees and your incoming water is 50 for example that would be some pretty hot water coming out of your tap.


I am too the point of just hooking the furnace up and saying the heck with the water for now. (Stupid gas water heater with the high temp cut off grr). 

But it is pretty stupid to have the owb just sitting there not heating the house b/c of water. haha


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## 04ultra (Dec 31, 2010)

varna said:


> upsnake,
> The 10 plate I recieved was a model LB31-10 here is the chart:
> 
> http://www.americanroyal.net/page/page/4344238.htm
> ...


 
Anderson's is local for me ...only 13 miles away


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## Steveguy (Dec 31, 2010)

upsnake said:


> Ok so last question on the topic.
> 
> If you were using a plate HX with out a storage tank, is there a way to control the output temp or would you have fluctuation when either the well pump comes on and you get more pressure in your water lines, or if the water temp from the OWB dips a little bit?
> 
> ...


 
I always figured too that anytime you change the flow rate through the heat exchanger or change the temp of the boiler loop, you will change the temp of water discharged. I suppose anti scald faucets can help steady the temp in a shower, but it doesn't seem like it would be steady like having a tank of water at a set temp.
As I stated in an earlier post, the easiest way around all of this that doesn't cost extra, is to simply lower the boiler temp setpoint to a safe distance below the high limit on the water heater and use a simple sidearm. When my boiler was at 185 degrees, it got too close to the waterheater limit and tripped it. I lowered to 175 degrees and it's fine. You do understand that even at 160 degrees water temp, the air from your forced air system will be plenty warm to feel like warm heat (not like a luke warm heatpump). If you can find out what temp the water heater control will trip at, stay 15 degrees below to make sure it doesnt trip out.


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## Steveguy (Dec 31, 2010)

I do understand your reluctance to hook up anything to that darned gas waterheater... 
I have heard of some people using a small plate exchanger on the cold water inlet to the water heater to temper the water coming in. Generally it doesn't heat it up all the way, just warms it some, then the gas water heater will finish heating it to setpoint. That would still save gas, while avoiding really high temps in the heater, saving the gas valve. Just another possibility.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

Steveguy - That was one of the things i was thinking of, putting a small inexpensive plate hx, 20-30k btu, and have it feed the water heater. 

I will have to go look at the owb today, i am not sure if i can change the temp set point. The water heater says it trips at 190. So if i had the boiler at 175 i think i should have enough room. 

The only concern on lowering the set point is the new temperature valve that CB is making you install. where if water is between 150 and 170 it diverts some of the flow from the owb right back to the owb to help keep the heat in the burner. 
If it goes below 150 it diverts all the water back.

Their reasoning was that if the water temp gets too low you get condensation on the water jacket and it rusts out. (or something like that).


I think the small pate hx would be the best option. If it is feeding water to the water heater at near 100 degrees the water heater doesn't have to use much gas to bump it up the rest of the way and to maintain it, vs feeding 50 degree water to it.


I have seen some plat hx on ebay and other places for like 90 dollars. ( although i would need to make sure to find one with 1 inch connections so i am reducing the flow).

Man i am going to be happy to have this thing done. haha


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## Steveguy (Dec 31, 2010)

I think that small 10 plate exchanger is your best answer, and you have the right idea on the tempering deal. It won't take much gas to finish heating to the waterheater setpoint. This way you can run the boiler at normal setpoint and it won't mess with that funky return valve.... Good luck finishing your install and be sure to tell us all about it! We want to hear about day to day operation after you run it awhile too.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

Outdoor Wood Furnaces, Furnace Parts, Heat Exchanger, Modine Style Heaters, Stove Fittings

I was thinking something like this.

They don't say what the GPM flow rate is, but even if it was between .5 and 1 it would still dump a decent amount of warm water into the water heater.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

I thinking something like this for a setup.


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## Steveguy (Dec 31, 2010)

Now you're cookin' with gas.......I mean wood! With that setup and 20 plate HX you should be golden.


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## Bricks (Dec 31, 2010)

Reading threw your install I have a question? What type of water do you have? Plate heat exchangers are notorious for scaling in short order and loose there efficiency. Water softener takes care of this issue.

Dumb question is there any way your can remove or unhook the gas controller on your water heat? If you can find the temp sensor then unhook problem solved.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

I am on well water, I am not exactly sure how hard the water is, but the hx would be post the water softener. I plan on putting unions into the systems so that i can take out the hx for cleaning if i need to. 

I had my father in law look at the water heater, (he has many years of appliance repair experience) and he said it didn't look good for bypassing the thermo cut switch on the water heater. 

The one i have is basically built to be thrown away if anything ever happened. Haha


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## Penguins87 (Dec 31, 2010)

Upsnake, been studing your diagram. Looks good to me. Not to make this more confusing but in time you may want to plumb in bypasses at each HXer. Two "t's" and three ball valves per each HX. This allows to maintain flow to one while cleaning and/or replacing the other down the road. Also in warmer weather you may bybass the plenum HX but still heat your DHW. Interested in see how you make out so keep us posted. Thought someday I would replace my OWB with the E-1400.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmm interesting, i had not thought about a bypass on the plate.

The furnace HX really has more stuff going on that i drew on the diagram.
I have a ball vavle on both the hot and supply line, then on the hot line i have a boiler drain to drain the hx in the summer. (it is above the ac coil, and don't want to risk freezing it).

Also i and putting ball valves in the pex right as it comes in the house so i can turn the house off completely ( I am planning on installing the Furnace HX then coming back and doing the plate heat. 

I should be able to just close off the supply and return where it comes in the house drain the inside lines through the furnace hx boiler drain then install the plate hx. 

I think.


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## upsnake (Dec 31, 2010)

Well i tried my hardest, but it will not be up and running tonight.  I have the HX in the furnace, but need yet more parts. haha Seems like everyday i am buying more parts. (doesn't help I am doing my own set up and not what CB had planned so i have lots of parts just not the right ones.
Haha

Oh well tomorrow I will have it going.  I will post some more pics of the setup soon.

One question for people. How did you fill your owb? Did you do it like CB where you put a boiler valve in to fill from the house, or did you put a hose in the top of the Owb?

Also it seems like CB's diagram for filling is pretty anal about what valve to open and close in what order. For example they have your purge the air out of the garden hose before backfilling the supply line, yet you are pushing all the air from the supply pex line to the OWB.

Haha oh well.


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## Steveguy (Jan 1, 2011)

I just use a washing machine hose (double female fittings) and hook to the boiler drain valve by my furnace HX . You can open and close the valve on each side of the HX and force water through both ways to help purge air from the system.


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## upsnake (Jan 1, 2011)

Well 12 more hour (24 man hours), and it is done.  It is not on but done. I need to pressure check the systems tomorrow, then fill it and start the fire.

I don't have any of the DHW stuff in, just ran it for for heating the house right now and when i get the plate hx i will bypass the inside run, and install the plate hx. Wow i am so ready for this to be installed.

On a postive note, one of the neighbors stopped to talk to me the other day and started on his statement with I see you are putting in a OWB, (i was thinking great somebody is going to yell at me about it and i haven't even started it up yet haha). But in fact he stopped to say i was welcome to the dead ash trees he has, he said he has a lot of them.  Free wood


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## johnnylabguy (Jan 1, 2011)

upsnake said:


> On a postive note, one of the neighbors stopped to talk to me the other day and started on his statement with I see you are putting in a OWB, (i was thinking great somebody is going to yell at me about it and i haven't even started it up yet haha). But in fact he stopped to say i was welcome to the dead ash trees he has, he said he has a lot of them.  Free wood



That's great! Ash is good free wood too! And I hope you mentioned that you spent the extra money on a EPA model so you wouldn't smoke out your neighbors.

Keep up the good updates. I'm looking forward to your first pics of it gasifying!


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## upsnake (Jan 1, 2011)

Hmm that would have been a good thing to mention. Haha

There are two other ppl on my rd that heat their house with wood, (inside fireplaces) and then we occasionally will have a fire in the fireplace, so it is not like people are not used to the smell of burning wood.

I don't think it will be a problem.  Or at least i hope it wont. haha


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## robsco (Jan 2, 2011)

sorry if i am too late with advise, but I have a 10 plate exchanger pre feeding my water heaters and power turned off. With boiler water set at 175 I get unlimited supply of 120-130 degree water. My shower has two overhead faucets and four body jets and it keeps up just fine. As far as over taxing your boiler, remember it is only pulling off heat when hot water is running. I also have two boiler drains hooked up to domestic side so that I can turn off water and pump vinegar through exchanger to clean hard water deposits.


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## upsnake (Jan 3, 2011)

Robsco- what brand plate hx did you go with? 
Thanks


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## barnyardman (Jan 3, 2011)

Here is my setup with the hose that Steveguy is talking about. Its hooked now to bleed air out. When I need to add water I hook up to the two valves you see on the left about middle way down. One of them is domestic water.


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## upsnake (Jan 4, 2011)

It is finally going !!!! 

It took about 3 months from start to finish but it is going. I don't have the plate hx in yet. I have to order it still, and will have to bypass and drain the inside loop to do it but i just wanted to get it heating the house. 

The temp on the supply and return coils of the HX with the furnace fan running.





What was left in the fireplace this morning.





Loaded up for the day. (I hope haha)






I will get some pics of the inside plumbing tonight. I started working on getting it fired up around 6:30 last night and didn't get done until 1:30. (oh and had to replace the sump pump during that time do as it croaked on me.) haha

But it is alive. Woke up to a nice warm 66 degrees this morning, (yes that does feel warm to me, been used to the house at 55-60 for so long 66 is warm. I am sure it will creep up with time though. haha


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## johnnylabguy (Jan 4, 2011)

You are finally enjoying some wood heat! Congrats! Make sure you check back in on how its burning as the winter goes along. We don't get enough feedback on these e-classic 1400s. If 66 feels warm to you I don't think you'll use much wood either. (I give you 2 months before your wife says she's freezing when your house is "only" 69 degrees!)


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## Penguins87 (Jan 4, 2011)

Congrats!!! Now your living. Feels good don't it. I say turn up the thermostat. We started at 70 and now three years later 73.


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## upsnake (Jan 4, 2011)

I bumped it up to 70 but I got too hot so i put it back down to 68. Hahah

Ok time for some pics

The back all full of insulation, and some rat poison. 





I installed a thermometer on the return line right before it goes back into the boiler. I put a tee in the line and that thermometer connects there. It is normally used on commercial dishwashers. 





My disorganized setup





Next year i plan on building a wood shed to the left of the boiler but for this year i will be working with tarps. Oh well, I guess that is what you get when you decide to buy the owb in the middle of November. Haha





My hx in the plenum. It is amazing up much tape will conceal. Haha 





Another shot. I plan on closing the two valves in the summer and draining the HX as it sits on top of my AC coil.






This is that thermostatic valve i i was talking about earlier. Where if the water is below 150 only a trickle moves through, between 150 and 170 partial and above 170 is full flow.





Here is the over view of the setup in the basement. (I don't really have 2 water heaters, the one on the right was dead when i bought the house and i just haven't taken it out of the basement yet. 







Now some questions or at least things that are puzzling me. 


The temp on my control panel is 185 actuall i bumped it to 190, but the temp on the Supply line on the HX is ~165. So i was all concerned that I had 20 degrees of heat loss. 
If i was running the furnace fan it was about 140.

But according to my return thermometer, the return water was right at 140. So then i measured the temp on the brass nipple in the supply line before the pump and it is 165. 

So i have virtually no heat loss, but I can't figure out why the unit is showing so much hotter water then everything else i have measured.


Burn times and things so far.

From the pictures in the earlier post the one that is unburned that was what i put in it at 7:45 this morning, and at 7 pm tonight there was coals and a couple of big chunks left, the burner was maintaining it temp and the house was at temp as well. So i am not sure if that was good or not but...


Dumb things that i have done so far.

Not being fully awake this morning when I was loading it, i pulled some wood from the pile and apparently a round rolled off and i didn't realize it, well i stepped on it and started falling right towards the open firebox door. I used the piece of word i was holding to brace myself against the side of the owb to keep from falling in. Haha 

Then tonight i apparently got too close b.c i heard that dreaded sound of hair burning. Yup i lost some hair, but i needed a hair cut anyway. Hahah 

So far thats my story. 

I am sure that i will figure out how to make things work better as time goes.

Oh ya i have to figure out how to clean the ash out pretty soon. Haha it has only been going for 24 hours so i should be ok. I will look at i tomorrow. haha


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## upsnake (Jan 4, 2011)

What are you guys doing for daily / weekly / monthly maintenance for you e classics? I have read through the book a couple times, but have yet to really try cleaning it all that much yet. I ran the long poker tool through the coals tonight like the book said but that is about it. 

Also as far as smoke goes, last night i smelled like i spent the day next to a camp fire, but it was kinda a pain to get started the first time, and i had a lot of smoke from that.

This morning when i went out to put wood in it, i couldn't smell any smoke, nor see anything, If i didn't know it was there i wouldn't have known a fire was burning. So i hope it stays like that. Haha


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## applefarmer (Jan 5, 2011)

First off congats on your owb, she looks sweet! Second, turn the heat up 68 is cold. 

I think I would replace that paper faced insulation with unfaced fiberglass batts. I know you probably would never have a problem, but I am a little of a worry wort.

Does CB require you to have that return valve in your line for warrenty reasons? Is it only neccesary because your boiler is a gasser? In three years of operating a non-gasser owb I have never noticed any "codensation" inside the firebox due to low water temp. 

As far as the water temps go, where do you pull supply water from your boiler at, the top or the bottom? If it is like most owb, probably the bottom where the water is cooler and your temp readout is coming from the top (I assume). The temp numbers you listed for the return valve, are they correlated to the readout numbers or actual water temp numbers?


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## varna (Jan 5, 2011)

Upsnake, I have a wood doctor HE5000 gasser, I have it set to 185, the temp on my gauge seems to read the same temp with aquastats during operation. Now, when my gauge on my unit reads 185 my supply line reads about 20 degrees cooler or so. Now, my gauge is in the "top" of my boiler water tank and my supply feeds off of the "bottom" of my boiler as per installation instructions. After doing all the checking I could, I concluded (in my mind anyway) that heat rises so the difference in the temps is the actual difference of the water temp in the boiler from top to bottom. 
I heat about 3000 sq ft of house (2 forced hot air units, 2 houses attached) @ average 75 degrees all winter, 750 sq ft "lightly" insulated pole barn with in-floor radiant heat kept @ minimum 50 degrees 24/7, all DHW, keep our 500gal hot tub @ 104 degrees, 2 dishwashers, 2 clothes washers, 6 folks taking showers...... and on the "coldest" days I fill my boiler with a 8cu ft, wheelbarrow full of wood @ 6:30am, 1/2 of one @ 3:30 pm and a full one again @11:00 pm. On days when it stays in the 40's and 50's and is sunny, I can go up to 24 hours on one fill. 90% of my wood that I am using is 2 year seasoned oak.
That's the best I can do on wood usage comparison.

BTW, as Applefarmer asked, that "bypass" thingy you have, is it a CB requirement? I have no such thing on my install and mine is a gasser. On the rare occasion my water temp falls below 120 or so, I just shut off my circulator pumps for about a 1/2 hour and I'm right back up.


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## upsnake (Jan 5, 2011)

Applefarmer:

Unfaced insulation just for moisture or a ember hitting the paper or?

Ya CB requires the return valve or it will void the warranty, it sounded like all new CBs's need it not just gassifers. 

I think the supply line is somewhere in the lower midway up the burner, the pump is right behind the red R-13 in the insulation pic.

The temps on the return, are actual water temps.
What i did for the 165 and 135 ish temps was to put a thermometer lead on the supply and return side of the HX, then compare to the return thermometer on the unit. I also measure the brass line right on the supply line at the back of the burner.

Woke up to a somewhat cold house this morning, with 110 degree water. Haha 
Stupid thing went out last night. I went to check on it and it was still full of wood just not fire. I checked the ash clean out to make sure it wasn't full and choking it, and there was almost no ash in there. So i am not sure if i just didn't have enough coals in there or what. But got it going, and just asked the wife what temp it was, and she said 185 on the read out at the boiler so it should still be going.


Varna:
Wow that is a heck of a heat load. 
Right now i am just heating my house, it is a 2000 sq foot house, 10 years old, the basement is heated as well so if that was count that 4k sq feet.

The house is "stock" as far as insulation for 10 year house, it is not bad the builders didn't completely skimp but didn't go extra either. 

But ya wasn't too happy about having to relight it this morning, (oh course it was a day that i actually needed to leave at a certain time, most days i have some flexibility hahah).


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## 1harlowr (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't have a CB but when my OWB was fired up for the first time it went out a time or two over the first couple days till coals were built up. 
I actually had to increase the indoor house temp over night (from 62° to 67°) or the OWB wouldn't fire up enough at night and the fire would actually go out. This was caused when the indoor temp on the programmable thermostat, at 11pm, would go from 70° to 62°. The house took hours to drop the 8°. If there not enough coals built up, the fire would go out.


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## upsnake (Jan 5, 2011)

That would make sense, I programed the thermostat last night before going to bed,it was dropping from 69 to 63, which is several hours at least.

I will keep an eye on things til the bed of coals gets built up better.

I got thinking about that thermostatic valve from CB. If the water is about 20 degrees cooler than the the unit says it is, then the valve is almost never going to be fully open. (170). My water at the HX is been consistently at 165, sometimes up to 169. 

The valve doesn't care what the temp on the owb says it is, it only cares what the water going through it is. That seems kinda dumb to me.
Oh well.


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## applefarmer (Jan 5, 2011)

upsnake said:


> I got thinking about that thermostatic valve from CB. If the water is about 20 degrees cooler than the the unit says it is, then the valve is almost never going to be fully open. (170). My water at the HX is been consistently at 165, sometimes up to 169.
> 
> The valve doesn't care what the temp on the owb says it is, it only cares what the water going through it is. That seems kinda dumb to me.
> Oh well.



That is what I was getting at. I think most people don't really have a clue what their actual water temp is they just go by what the unit says. I assumed you were told the different temps about the valve by your dealer and I just wondered if he was using what the read out said or "real" water temps. If the valve requires 170 and you are at 165 your losing flow to the hx if it is sending it back to the boiler, which could be a problem when you start heating your dhw and it gets colder outside. I would call central boiler direct and tell them what you are seeing as far as real water temps. If that is really sending back water at 165 you are losing heat at some point. I don't care how good foam insulation is (and I know it is good as it is in my house) the boiler losses a little heat just from being outside. That 165* water would do you better if it all went to your hx-house. 

With that being said a 25* delta t is just about where you want to be, if you were losing flow to the hx via the valve the delta t would be higher. I guess if you like to play around a little let your boiler temp drop then see what your hx gives you for temp readings. The more I think about it, I really think I would talk to a tech at CB, that valve just doesn't make sence to me.

Oh and the concern about the insulation would be the slim chance of a fire.


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## upsnake (Jan 6, 2011)

Well i think i have learning to do still haha. Second time since it has been running that i have either woke up to or come home to a 55 degree house. Haha

Fire was out again when i got home. All the wood was just charred and sitting in the firebox. Got started back up and it was up to temp in about an hour but still grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Didn't make fore a very happy wife when she got home. (she is understanding still, it will take some time to get things all figured out).

She is still just happy the house is not long 55-60 degrees all the time. haha

Oh and i ordered the plate HX today. Once i get that i can finalize the install.


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## rob206 (Jan 7, 2011)

Upsnake,
There is another site that has quite a few members that have E-Classics up and running. Don't know if it's okay to spell it out here, but if you google "E-classic paperclip" you will find it. I have the old style 5036 so I don't know the workings of the gassifiers, but from what I can tell, the paperclip keeps some sort of damper open slightly.


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## jd6030 (Jan 7, 2011)

I have e classic 2300 and use a paperclip on primary air solenoid any time it is above 20 degrees and currently using it know even being colder than that. I took it out for a few days and was having a lot of coals building up and would not burn them down so back to using paperclip it keeps coal bed so it does not take much air to get a good fire going again. Using paperclip I never had to light fire even when it is 80 degree outside.


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## upsnake (Jan 8, 2011)

I am going to have to look into the paper clip thing. It went out twice today. My wife got it going at around 7 and i just got home at 1:30 and it was out again. All the wood just sitting in there. I am begining to think it would have been better to spend less money and get a reg CB instead of the e classic. If i wanted to babysit the thing all day i would have just put and insert in my house.

Oh well maybe this is the "learning to use it that everybody talks about" I hope it gets better. It has gone out 5 times now since the middle of last week. :bang:


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## varna (Jan 8, 2011)

Upsnake,
not to be smart, but, what does your dealer say about it going out and how to fix it? 
I do know what you are talking about a "learning" curve. On my Wood Doctor gasser, I was constantly going out and checking and kept thinking it was out when I got home from work. I would "swear" it was out, but about 2 minutes with the damper open and fan running would bring the coals back to life. Finally, after my wife told me to "leave that damn thing alone" did I realize that....that was the trick, after learning that, I just know when I need to check on it according to the weather. 
On my Wood Doctor, there is a 1 hour timer that is wired into the fan circuit that is setable (one of the learning things) that must be used to keep the fire from going out during "light" loads (warmer weather) and/or if you are using "not so seasoned" wood (needs to come on more). My perticular application for me that works great is......every 30 minutes the damper opens and the fan runs for 3 minutes with nice dry wood. It keeps my fire from going out and I have never boiled over from overheat. You just insert "pins" into it to make it run as much or little as you need.


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## tanker (Jan 8, 2011)

Upsnake,do yourself a favor and cut the insulation away from your pump motor.Insulate around the pump but leave the motor exposed.No heat loss on the water but pump motor will stay a lot cooler.Also just curious if all your ball valve are full flows? You will like the c.b.,we are on year6(I think) with a 5648 and love it.I originaly tied direct into the weil-mclain boiler in the basement but have since installed forced air in the whole house and divoced the c.b. from house boiler and running20-25 degrees less on the c.b. Scott


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## upsnake (Jan 8, 2011)

Varna: I haven't talked to him yet. I need to call him the beginning of next week and ask about that and also ask about the water temp difference between the control panel and the actual water temp coming out the boiler. ~20 degrees cooler.

It was running good this morning, nice fire, only had steam coming out of the top of the chimney, until i accident lyturned the breaker off putting the breaker panel cover back on.Once i found i did that i had to relight the fire but it is going again.


Had to deal with another issue this morning, everytime the furnace fan would come on the AC was coming on haha. I think my orginal tstat is toast. :bang:


I have no doubt that i am going to like it, once i get it going to the point that i can trust there to be heat in the house when get home from work. haha.

I would look into the fan option, i am not sure if it does that or not.

Tanker: I will go out and do that as soon as i have feeling in my toes. 20 degree weather, and shorts and sandals don't mix to well. haha Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Steveguy (Jan 9, 2011)

upsnake, you are probably backfeeding the relay on the central A/C , causing the compressor to come on. Mine does this too. Nothing wrong with the thermostat, but you may need another control relay in the circuit. On mine I just turned off the 220 breaker for the A/C unit. The 24 volt control relay in the outdoor compressor unit still energizes, but it can't run. That will get you by until you make other changes. Steveguy


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## upsnake (Jan 9, 2011)

For right now i turned the breaker off for the AC. And in the course of testing things, just unhooked the yellow line at my Tstat (for the ac). 

I also have an issue where my gas furnace is not acting as the backup. If the owb goes out, since the owb tstat is still keeping the blower on the furnace is not able to tell the gas burner part to come one.

My father in law is going to fix that one for me. I didn't want to put the mental capacity into figuring that one. He is going to add another relay and 24 volt transformer to the furnace and do something. My eyes kinda glossed over when he was explaining it. Haha


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## Steveguy (Jan 9, 2011)

Yeah, thats why I still turn off the breaker. I can figure it out, I just won't!!! Too lazy after the initial install. Wow, 3 years ago already!? I don't remember if I double checked to see if the gas backup will come on...maybe I should check. Some guys use an aquastat in the boiler loop and wire into the furnace, if the loop is hot it bypasses the burner in furnace, if the loop gets cold, the gas can fire.... one thermostat, one setting. I may do that sometime.


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## upsnake (Jan 9, 2011)

So far today it has been going for 10 hours, and is about 3/4 full of wood so far. I have had the hour 70 all day, and it is currently 23 degrees. 

I did go out and move the coals around and open up the exhaust hole a couple hours ago b/c the water temp started to drop.

Other than that is has been running in the gasifying stage every time it has needed to cycle.

It has been a good day with it today. Haha 

It is supposed to go down to 11 tonight so. Cross my fingers.


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## goosegunner (Jan 9, 2011)

I think your mixing valve would work better at the boiler instead of in the house. Go to ********** the forums/ The Boiler Room to learn about return temp protection. It will make your boiler perform better and also make it last longer.

gg


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## upsnake (Jan 13, 2011)

Well i talked to CB today about the 20 degree temp difference i am having, and they had move open the firestar control and remove the thermocouple, then in a cup of hot water compare the results on the firestar to my thermometer.

The water was 185 on the thermometer and 205 on the controller.

To help eliminate any concerns about the thermometer. I calibrated it just before doing the test and it was spot on. 

I emailed CB the results, so I will wait for their answer.


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## Penguins87 (Jan 19, 2011)

Interested to know how things are going. Do you have that E1400 figured all out?


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## upsnake (Jan 19, 2011)

I am still waiting to hear back from the dealer on the control panel thing. But other than that it is running pretty good right now. I don't have it heating the water yet. I have the plate hx sitting on my counter, but want to get the control panel thing working first then will deal with the h20.

I had it go out on me the other night, but i somewhat expected it. I was playing with the tstat in the house to see how big of a temp swing i could have with out the fire going out. I had it 74 in the house then it dropped down to 64 for the night and i think it just idled too long. (at least for my current pulse settings).

It was not hard to restart in the morning. Couple pieces of paper and a blow torch and it was up and running again.

I think i might be over filling it, maybe, haha I had a lot of coals built up this morning. (~ 8 - 9 inches), enough that it was covering the air holes, so i didn't really feed it this morning. I threw a couple junk pieces of wood in, but the fire box was still about half full. 

The longest i have let it go between loads is about 15 hours, and it still had wood in it at the point, but i wanted to go to bed and didn't think/ chance it making it through the night. Haha

But for the most part things are going pretty good.


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## 1grnlwn (Jan 19, 2011)

I am curious with "free heat" why would you even screw with evening setbacks? I had a heating contractor tell me that setbacks have little value after a few degrees. It takes more energy to warm everything back up than to just keep it to temp. What is the purpose of that temp valve ? My house will heat even with 120 deg water, the furnace just runs a little longer. Oh and I do realize that wood heat is not "free".


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## upsnake (Jan 19, 2011)

68 is too hot to sleep in  :sweat:

That really is what going to 64 is about. I find that much more comfortable sleeping temp than 68. haha


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## 1grnlwn (Jan 19, 2011)

I have just one word for you "Commando"


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## upsnake (Jan 19, 2011)

Hahaha Nice. 

History of sleep walking and commando don't really go that well together. Haha

In reality though as i read through the forums and see some of the temps that ppl keep their houses, just sounds painfully to me. I am all for a warm house, but in the summer anything over about 70 and i am looking to bring the temp down. Haha 

So in the winter i don't want to create summer in the house.


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## 1grnlwn (Jan 19, 2011)

Maybe when you start heating DHW the increased load on the stove will even out your burn.


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## upsnake (Jan 19, 2011)

In a somewhat paranoid thing of not wanting it to run out of wood i have been filling it all the way up morning and night. Hahah Which is really just topping it off.

So this morning i just put a couple little pieces in, and i haven't touched it yet, (12 hours and counting)

I will go out in a couple of hours and check on it, and then prob fill it half way up and see how that goes.


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## upsnake (Jan 21, 2011)

Good News: The dealer is coming out tomorrow with a new control panel. Just a doin da Forestry Forum Boogie

Bad news: I have to shut the boiler down. Sad The dealer said some of the thermostatic mixing valves had the wrong temperature set point in them. Instead of being 150 they were 180. so he is going to check that, but to do that we have to stop the flow of water to the valve.

My system is designed where i cal easily stop the flow after the valve, but i only have a shut off on the supply line before the valve. So i think i am going to have to top it there, and then at the stove for the return line, then have it drain our at my HX to get the return line empty. Grrrrrrrrrrr

I am one more valve away from making that a painless spot to stop the flow of water too. Oh well.

I will let you know how it goes. Hahah


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