# When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch?



## magnus (Oct 1, 2009)

I have several large Eucalyptus that need to be brought down behind my house and gardens.

They are heavily weighted, as well as side-leaning, in the same direction; which unfortunately is over a cliff with my house below. I have found that using 3 winches pulling the tree ~170 degrees away from the lean, without cutting a notch to fell the tree, to work well.

I use a 1 ton at the furthest point to pull the branches around nearly 90 degrees.
A second 2 ton is in the mid section to pull the larger central trunk as far as possible and to assist the smaller winch.
The final 3 ton is placed near the beginning of the bend in the trunk, about 20 meters above the base. This is to stabilize while I drive wedges into the cut and to help bring the largest portion of the tree trunk over its center of gravity.

I have found that making the back cut slant slightly downwards in the direction the winches are pulling to be helpful also.

I have not found much good information available for situations like this and would appreciate feedback from those who have worked with Eucalyptus and winches, or could direct me to some outside links online.


My concern is that by making a notch, I may weaken the tree prematurely and have it fall without control. The lumber is not valuable to me.

I have several large Eucalyptus that need to be brought down behind my house and gardens.

They are heavily weighted, as well as side-leaning, in the same direction; which unfortunately is over a cliff with my house below. I have found that using 3 winches pulling the tree ~170 degrees away from the lean, without cutting a notch to fell the tree, to work well.

I use a 1 ton at the furthest point to pull the branches around nearly 90 degrees.
A second 2 ton is in the mid section to pull the larger central trunk as far as possible and to assist the smaller winch.
The final 3 ton is placed near the beginning of the bend in the trunk, about 20 meters above the base. This is to stabilize while I drive wedges into the cut and to help bring the largest portion of the tree trunk over its center of gravity.

I have found that making the back cut slant slightly downwards in the direction the winches are pulling to be helpful also.

I have not found much good information available for situations like this and would appreciate feedback from those who have worked with Eucalyptus and winches, or could direct me to some outside links online.

= winches

<-- + tree and desired direction of fall

| lean and branch weight



My concern is that by making a notch, I may weaken the tree prematurely and have it fall without control. The lumber is not valuable to me.

I have several large Eucalyptus that need to be brought down behind my house and gardens.

They are heavily weighted, as well as side-leaning, in the same direction; which unfortunately is over a cliff with my house below. I have found that using 3 winches pulling the tree ~170 degrees away from the lean, without cutting a notch to fell the tree, to work well.

I use a 1 ton at the furthest point to pull the branches around nearly 90 degrees.
A second 2 ton is in the mid section to pull the larger central trunk as far as possible and to assist the smaller winch.
The final 3 ton is placed near the beginning of the bend in the trunk, about 20 meters above the base. This is to stabilize while I drive wedges into the cut and to help bring the largest portion of the tree trunk over its center of gravity.

I have found that making the back cut slant slightly downwards in the direction the winches are pulling to be helpful also.

I have not found much good information available for situations like this and would appreciate feedback from those who have worked with Eucalyptus and winches, or could direct me to some outside links online.

= winches

<-- + tree and desired direction of fall

| lean and branch weight



My concern is that by making a notch, I may weaken the tree prematurely and have it fall without control. The lumber is not valuable to me.

no offense taken...i am way out of my league here...that is why i am asking for help.

i hired a "professional" to do the job and they created a disaster. after 2 trees, he was fired!

now i am doing it, since nobody else can.

anway....it seems everyone agrees that a face notch is critical...let me ask, should i make the cut in the direction of the winches or in the direction of the intended fall? they are about 80 degrees apart.


i find the eucyliptis is VERY flexible and i use this to my advantage compared to hardwoods i have cut in the traditional method.

please advise if you can or direct me to winching setup sites...i have been searching the board, but cannot find this particular setup question.

I have several large Eucalyptus that need to be brought down behind my house and gardens.

They are heavily weighted, as well as side-leaning, in the same direction; which unfortunately is over a cliff with my house below. I have found that using 3 winches pulling the tree ~170 degrees away from the lean, without cutting a notch to fell the tree, to work well.

I use a 1 ton at the furthest point to pull the branches around nearly 90 degrees.
A second 2 ton is in the mid section to pull the larger central trunk as far as possible and to assist the smaller winch.
The final 3 ton is placed near the beginning of the bend in the trunk, about 20 meters above the base. This is to stabilize while I drive wedges into the cut and to help bring the largest portion of the tree trunk over its center of gravity.

I have found that making the back cut slant slightly downwards in the direction the winches are pulling to be helpful also.

I have not found much good information available for situations like this and would appreciate feedback from those who have worked with Eucalyptus and winches, or could direct me to some outside links online.


My concern is that by making a notch, I may weaken the tree prematurely and have it fall without control. The lumber is not valuable to me.


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## adamc (Oct 1, 2009)

Magnus,

I am not as experienced or as expert as some here, but I thought I would post my .02 since no one else has. 

By not notching, you are risking barber-chairing and unpredictable behavior of the stump end, even if your winches ensure a safe direction of fall of the top of the tree. 

I have fallen leaners opposite the lean by pulling with a rope. I generally apply light tension, make a small notch, then tighten up the rope, then make the back cut. 

Adam


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## forestryworks (Oct 1, 2009)

the only way to have directional control over a tree is a proper face and properly aligned back cut with a sufficient hinge.


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## ddhlakebound (Oct 1, 2009)

magnus said:


> I have several large Eucalyptus that need to be brought down behind my house and gardens.
> 
> They are heavily weighted, as well as side-leaning, in the same direction; which unfortunately is over a cliff with my house below. I have found that using 3 winches pulling the tree ~170 degrees away from the lean, without cutting a notch to fell the tree, to work well.
> 
> ...



:jawdrop: YIKES!!! 

Very, very unsafe what your doing is....

I'm no timber faller by any means, but I'd never attempt to move a big tree over its lean with no face. A face and back cut (properly done) control where the tree is going, and keeps it from splitting apart with you in the batters box. (Barber chair mentioned above)

With no face cut, and much tension you're creating forces in the stump which will eventually go wrong. When it does, the tree will then go where it's weight is heading at that moment, winches be damned. And the explosion at the stump could be deadly if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Also, it seems to me that you're compounding the potential for problems by using multiple winches, unless they're perfectly aligned. You need the tension to bring it over center, but the torsion of an off center pull could twist the tree right off the stump, with disastrous results. I'd stick with the big winch attached to the tree 2/3 - 3/4 of the height. If it can't pull them over by itself, you need a bigger winch. 

Also, I'd want a log chain or strong rachet strap binding the trunk above the notch/back cut, to help prevent/protect you from a barber chair with the huge forces being generated in the stump. (if they're heavy leaners)

Honestly, the lack of knowledge exhibited in the OP makes me wonder if you're trolling us, or if you've really been this lucky so far. 

Learn proper cutting techniques before you continue, you're risking your life in a big way with the "technique" you're using now. 

Don't take this personal, it's only for your future safety.


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## ddhlakebound (Oct 1, 2009)

Like your blog...great looking gardens and crops. I also see you've already had a double mishap with the trees.....Sorry bout the damage, but it's a good thing that nobody was hurt or worse. 

How big is the island? Got enough altitude to get away if Las Palmas ever goes?


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## ddhlakebound (Oct 1, 2009)

magnus said:


> no offense taken...i am way out of my league here...that is why i am asking for help.
> 
> i hired a "professional" to do the job and they created a disaster. after 2 trees, he was fired!
> 
> ...



Ah...I see the "pro" is the one who caused the disaster.....

How did that happen?

On the topic of winch/notch direction, I'd want them as closely aligned as possible, but definately not more than 25/30 degrees off. The farther apart they are, you'll get more tear, and less hinge over. Once the hinge tears, it's going where the weight is.

Edit: may have been unclear....I'd move the winch location to near the intended fall direction, and have the notch/face cut gunned in that direction. If you cant get the winch to there, use the base of another tree as an anchor point for a redirect. (with a block and sling)


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## md_tree_dood (Oct 1, 2009)

I have a hard time believing you hired a "pro," unless you mean a guy who said he did tree work and took your money and you consider that a "pro." Depending on the situation, and granted I have no pictures, if these trees are on a cliff over hanging your house, why not just bring in a crane and pick the trees and be done with it? Are you hiking up your gear to the site? Is there access? Why not climb the trees and rig them down? What you're doing sounds like "cutting wood" which is what most people say they do on this website and those are the ones who really have no idea what they're doing. I think you've gotten lucky to this point, please be careful. If you insist on doing it yourself, why not post up some pictures so we can have a better idea of what you're doing?


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## jar1zx (Oct 3, 2009)

seems everyone agrees that a face notch is critical...let me ask, should i make the cut in the direction of the winches or in the direction of the intended fall? they are about 80 degrees apart



Make face cut. or as you say notch cut.. so tree will fall in direction of where you want it 2 fall.

on face cut don't exceed 20% of tree. there is a cut i learned logging that should work great for you. but i would hate 2 try to tell you how 2 do it with my bad spelling. but as long as u don't cut face cut 2 deep you should be fine good luck.

after thinking some. might be best 2 find you a better pro to hire.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 3, 2009)

i've seen some 'slash' cuts without face go well (fair in climbing sometimes), but not from a back leaner. 

To me, making a face does several things: provides a path of least resistance to target, doesn't bring all the force to a point but rather strip across, brings angle of lean more towards target (CG is more past pivot point), steering from a wider strip across (more leveraged side to side control) than if cutting towards front point of circle/unfaced to name a few.

i'm not too familiar with the wood though. But, mostly; if trying to roll a car forward (tree); i'd want to take out the chock (wedge of face); especially from a backwards position, to allow it to roll forward easily. It would seem that especially on a back leaner, that the uncut face would have to become highly compressed and resist the movement forward. This would give support from the pushing back wards, but as mentioned this could go to Barber Chair IMLHO.

For i think of a BC as the tree (or limb) rolling forward on hinge, and meeting a resistance directly against that force, that kinda causes a 'split decision' if all that competing force over comes the constitution of the spar. Then can get tree lunging forward and sliding back (perhaps falling off to side) at same time etc.




i also like coming to a backleaner with line, over through sound foundation and then tie low on backside, so tree more rolls forward in a braced cradle. If some side lean, maybe lace around that side some to give a little of the tourque against the side lean. Can take leverage of the line higher more confidentally too IMLHO, and if line pulls straight can get more flex/ spring out of preloading not only the line, but the tree/spar as well.


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## southsoundtree (Oct 3, 2009)

In training from US Forest Service, anything over 6" (or maybe it was 8") needs a face cut, and this is going with the lean. 

I concur that some pictures would help tremendously, as well as some measurements of the diameter and height. 

Side lean will be an important factor in pulling against the lean. 

What is your insurance situation if you crush your house.

Sounds like you could us an experienced climber and groundman (men) to put it on the ground in sections, then you can do all the clean-up. 

Sounds very, very dangerous to do it without the facecut. Sounds lucky so far--don't push it.

Got a good tip from Jerry Beranek about reinforcing the hinge by bolting heavy chain to the trunk with a bunch of long lag bolts to help to counter hinge breakage if the wood is solid. Seems like a technique to be used by highly experienced folks, not a "this should hold it" plan.

Don't get me wrong, its good you are getting advice. Your blog looks very nice, like an idyllic place to live, and the part about the twin towers gone wrong into the garden doesn't make me feel like encouraging you to work over your home. 

Pics please. 

If you have a local professional with good references, I'd call for a quote on putting it down.

If I have to pull things against their lean, I climb them and reduce the weight pulling against the desired felling direction.


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## pdqdl (Oct 3, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> I have a hard time believing you hired a "pro," unless you mean a guy who said he did tree work and took your money and you consider that a "pro." Depending on the situation, and granted I have no pictures, if these trees are on a cliff over hanging your house, why not just bring in a crane and pick the trees and be done with it? Are you hiking up your gear to the site? Is there access? Why not climb the trees and rig them down? What you're doing sounds like "cutting wood" which is what most people say they do on this website and those are the ones who really have no idea what they're doing. I think you've gotten lucky to this point, please be careful. If you insist on doing it yourself, why not post up some pictures so we can have a better idea of what you're doing?



I think that about covers it! :agree2:

Regardless of the particulars of the job, consider hiring a true professional to get the tree to the ground somewhere other than on top of your house. REQUIRE that their insurance company name you as an additional insured prior to starting the work.

Then sit back and watch. 

If they crush your house, not only will the insurance cover the damages, but it will be THEIR insurance rate that goes up, not yours. Furthermore, their insurance is more likely to pay for liquidated damages and lost time while you are fixing the damage done.

Now if your real motivation is to just save some money, you really need to spend a lot of time studying up before you take this job on.


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## outofmytree (Oct 4, 2009)

This thread needs :camera:


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 4, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> I have a hard time believing you hired a "pro," unless you mean a guy who said he did tree work and took your money and you consider that a "pro." Depending on the situation, and granted I have no pictures, if these trees are on a cliff over hanging your house, why not just bring in a crane and pick the trees and be done with it? Are you hiking up your gear to the site? Is there access? Why not climb the trees and rig them down? What you're doing sounds like "cutting wood" which is what most people say they do on this website and those are the ones who really have no idea what they're doing. I think you've gotten lucky to this point, please be careful. If you insist on doing it yourself, *why not post up some pictures so we can have a better idea of what you're doing?*


:agree2:



southsoundtree said:


> In training from US Forest Service, anything over 6" (or maybe it was 8") needs a face cut, and this is going with the lean.
> 
> *I concur that some pictures would help tremendously*, as well as some measurements of the diameter and height.
> 
> ...


:agree2:



outofmytree said:


> This thread needs :camera:


:agree2:

*"When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch?" - SHRUBBERY.*

If you need help posting pix let me know.


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## randyg (Oct 4, 2009)

forestryworks said:


> the only way to have directional control over a tree is a proper face and properly aligned back cut with a sufficient hinge.



Now place a wedge in the back cut, (and another wedge or two below that in bore cuts ) and some pulling power up high and over they will go.

That bit about pulling the branches around 90 degrees does not sound good. Snug the winch lines up before making any cuts. Pulling directly opposite the lean should not be a problem. Wide face cut. Watch out for windy conditions though...


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## magnus (Oct 7, 2009)

*photos*

Wow, thanks for the great feedback. I had a chance to get online a day early this week, so here I am....with photos and a diagram. Tomorrow i walk to the city and will use the library to check online. 

I bought my MS180 2 years ago, that was the first time I ever used a chainsaw in my life. Not opposed to sawing, just never had a need. Anway the manual came in Portuguese, since i live on a portuguese island...and i do not speak portuguese...so i figured out how to work it myself and proceeded to cut an acre of jungle. mainly incenso and acatia trees spread over a 45 degree mountainside. at the time there was not internet so i could not get online to get an english manual or ask questions.
i made a lot of mistakes, but now i KNOW why i do NOT do certain things, that I now have read about. Now I bought a MS660 for the larger euks, although i did drop a 130 cm tree with my 35 bar. landed in my bathroom when the winch snapped! Anyway, on to the problem at hand.

There were a lot of posts, so let me try to make sense of some of the common ideas.

basically, ALWAYS use a notch.

also the tree has a diameter of 75 cm.

the "pro" i hired to fell the two trees that landed in our garden was recommended to me, so i did not check his credentials well. my mistake. on an island of 4000 there are few pros at anything other than fishing and dairy.

you need photos to make sense of what i am talking about...so here they are.

first, the last euk i cut using "my method". the trunk is uphill of the stump against the natural lean and weight, nearly identical to present problem tree.






now the problem tree.


















or all the photos are on photobucket here
http://s628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/magnusflores/

thanks allot for the input, i need help.
trust me, if there were a pro to hire here i would! 
not proud, just can´t find good help these days.


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## outofmytree (Oct 7, 2009)

Magnus you have a serious problem.

My kneejerk reaction is hire a pro. Of course you thought you already did that and got a hack so...... Try again. 

Winches and trees are a dangerous combo. I recently quoted a job after the HO started it, but lost 2 1/2 fingers from his right hand when the winch cable parted. 

It is easy for us to sit and type the answers from half the world away but as you wisely said


> now i KNOW why i do NOT do certain things


I do not want to read about you in the accident/fatality forum.

Stay safe mate.


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## randyg (Oct 11, 2009)

Dude

I think you have a problem with a "side leaner" there. If I am reading the pic labled view from winches correctly, that is not going to go well for you.

You can pull a tree directly opposite the direction it wants to go if you have enough pulling power.

If lean is to the side, hinge will break way early and then gravity takes over. One thing possible is to tie tree uphill first and then pull sideways while uphill rope/cable holds the weight of the tree...

WORD PICTURE: Tree leans to the north. You Tie it to the south. Then you can pull/fell it to either the east or west will little effort as the line to the south is holding most of the weight. Think of the dynamics of setting up a pup tent.

Can you wait till winter and drop them in the garden???

GOOD LUCK, and pray first...

randy


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## magnus (Oct 15, 2009)

randyg said:


> Dude
> 
> 
> If lean is to the side, hinge will break way early and then gravity takes over.
> ...



i agree, that is why i chose NOT to make a notch on the other tree like this.

i was afraid the hinge would break prematurely.

i pray allot! and usually don´t stop until the tree is safely on the ground!


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## magnus (Oct 15, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> I have a hard time believing you hired a "pro," unless you mean a guy who said he did tree work and took your money and you consider that a "pro." Depending on the situation, and granted I have no pictures, if these trees are on a cliff over hanging your house, why not just bring in a crane and pick the trees and be done with it? Are you hiking up your gear to the site? Is there access? Why not climb the trees and rig them down? What you're doing sounds like "cutting wood" which is what most people say they do on this website and those are the ones who really have no idea what they're doing. I think you've gotten lucky to this point, please be careful. If you insist on doing it yourself, why not post up some pictures so we can have a better idea of what you're doing?



did you see the pics?

the pro was a german guy who said he studied and did courses etc and worked for the govt here dropping trees. 

we have no road access to the house and yes i carry ALL the gear up and down the mountain side!

i am scared of heights, so NO chance i will climb those suckers!


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## magnus (Oct 15, 2009)

southsoundtree said:


> What is your insurance situation if you crush your house.
> 
> Sounds like you could us an experienced climber and groundman (men) to put it on the ground in sections, then you can do all the clean-up.
> 
> .



no insurance on the house.

no climbers here either, other than rock climbers, but they are not good with chainsaws.

it is just me and my wife and a friend or two on the winches.


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