# When Cutting Notch...



## fraidofheights (Sep 28, 2011)

Hiya fellas,

What's your take on cutting notches as far as cutting the flat bits first, or the diagonal bit. My foreman is an old logger, or something, and he cuts the flat bit first to get better aim, but when I try that, and then try and meet it with my diagonal cut, I always miss and make a mess out of it which is embarassing especialy when he has to fix it.

Now, another fella told me he cuts the diagonal first because it's easier to fix if you f*** up?

What's your take? Wanted to order a good tree falling book, but just bought a rope so I'm broke and ordered the damn climbing book with my order instead. Checked out some internet bits, but they didn't mention what to cut first.


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## forestryworks (Sep 28, 2011)

fraidofheights said:


> he cuts the flat bit first to get better aim


 
Your gun cut/undercut/"flat" cut should be cut first for that reason.

Keep practicing.


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## troythetreeman (Sep 28, 2011)

i dont notch and drop a lot of trees, but a few, i cut the diagonal cut first, my aim is fine either way but its easier for me to line my cuts up
the wedge in bigger trees will want to bind your saw occasionally, stick a couple sticks in your cut


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## squad143 (Sep 28, 2011)

When I instruct a fairly new chainsaw user to make a simple notch, I'll have them cut the diagonal first. They can use the "felling sights" on the chainsaw to get their aim. I'll have them continue their 45 degree diagonal until they are 1/3rd of the diameter through the tree. I'll have them line up their flat cut next. Finally their back cut, 1 inch above their flat cut.

I find this is the best method to have someone line up their face (diagonal) cut with their horizontal cut exactly, without cutting past the 1/3 point.

By starting the horizontal cut first, it is difficult for the student to gauge how high to start the face cut. If started too high, the diagonal will end up missing the intersection point of the horizontal cut, and cut deeper into the tree than the desired 1/3rd.

By cutting the diagonal first, the student can cut the diagonal until it is at the desired depth and easily align the horizontal cut for a perfect match.


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## serial feller (Sep 28, 2011)

I personally prefer to make the diagonal face cut first because it is easier to make the cuts line up and avoid having to fix a dutchman. The aforementioned felling sight on your saw, if so equipped, should go up the side of the power head and wrap across the top. This enables you to accurately place your cut either horizontally or on the diagonal. With a little practice you can achieve great accuracy either way you choose.

By the way I love your username. That's why I do all of my work from the ground!


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## forestryworks (Sep 28, 2011)

squad143 said:


> If started too high, the diagonal will end up missing the intersection point of the horizontal cut, and cut deeper into the tree than the desired 1/3rd.


 
It's not a matter of how high or low the diagonal is, but rather the roll axis of the bar. Newbies roll too little or too much, resulting in a dutchman.


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## pdqdl (Sep 28, 2011)

Notwithstanding the excellent comments above, I have one other consideration:

Assuming accurate placement of your cuts, it's easier to finish a wedge cut when the wedge falls away from your bar instead of on top of your bar. I generally do "diagonal down" last on big trees, so that I do not have to worry about a 20 pound chunk of wood pinching my bar.

I rarely use a wedge to send a tree over, so I generally do not worry about stopping at the correct "one third diameter" face cut, either. The low, fat deciduous trees that I come across in my neighborhood seem to do quite well with deep face cuts and no wedge whatsoever, often with no pull rope either.

If you happen to be doing a Humboldt cut or some other fancy felling cut, that will change all the previous considerations.


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## troythetreeman (Sep 28, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Notwithstanding the excellent comments above, I have one other consideration:
> 
> the correct "one third diameter"


 
a deep notch can change the center of gravity, sometimes a tree that will not go with a 1/3 notch will go with a deep one

the depth really inst that important, more important your cuts line up so you have a nice hinge
the angle is important as well, the more open the angle the longer the hinge will hold, a tighter angle will snap the hinge when your cut closes and kick the butt away from the stump


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## pdqdl (Sep 28, 2011)

Yep. That's why I do it that way.

Most folks don't seem to realize that when you only cut a 1/3rd notch, if the tree is perfectly balanced you must pull hard enough to lift the entire tree over that 1/6th diameter mountain that keeps it from falling.

Undercut the center of gravity, and it will always go the direction you aim it. _Except for wind and other stuff..._


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## stihl.logger (Sep 29, 2011)

i always "flat" cut first, then my diagonal cut, i am guilty of not making a 45 notch tho, 95% of my trees get bore cut so the wedge is just to get it going in the right direction, i don't want the tree hanging on the hindge for long in fear of pulling the heartwood. when i was just learning i would use the bar like an iron sight (looking down on the bar) and aim where my hinge needed to be, it brought positive results. this is just a thought, i don't do it much myself, but i ran into an ol' schooler a while back who swore by it. he would make his "flat" cut first, then go where his hinge was to be and score the bark with the saw for his diagonal cut and use the scoring as a guide, more time consuming, but food for thought.


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## beastmaster (Oct 2, 2011)

I learned to do my flat cut first so that is how I do it. I have seen others that cut down first and do alright. But I don't see how you can be accurate unless you do your flat cut first, how else can you sight it? I take some big tops and drop them in tight places. Not only do you have to aim them, the depth and size of your notch is critical and is different on every cut if they are to land right. You can't make a mistake when your strapped to the tree 60ft up.
Maybe on the ground you have more lee way, but shouldn't you learn the more accurate method, even if it is a little more difficult to master? I'm sure many will disagree. 
The bottom line is there are many, many other variables to safely felling a tree, and if you can't hit your cuts while making your notch because its to hard, what else are you missing that might get you killed. Making a notch and sighting it in is the first basic you should be able to learn before being a competent faller or topper. It might be a good survey question to ask. flat first or angle first. Is one better then the other? I vote flat first. Beastmaster


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## russhd1997 (Oct 2, 2011)

Interesting thread. I always cut my flat first and then the diagonal. The instruction manuals that came with my Stihl chainsaws have instructions in them that explain notching and felling cuts. I don't have the manuals for my Dolmar and Jonsered saws so I don't know if they have instructions too.

I guess that they feel that a user that doesn't kill himself when felling trees is more likely to purchase another chainsaw than one who does! If you have the manual that came with your saw read it. If you don't you should be able to find one in the beg for manuals thread or online.


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## troythetreeman (Oct 2, 2011)

its one of those things you dont pay a lot of attention to, you just do it
when im on the ground notching larger trees i do the top cut first
in the tree notching limbs and tops over i do the bottom cut first
like many things, it takes some practice and after a point itll be second nature
i didnt even realize how many notches i make in a day till i responded to this thread and started paying attention again


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## serial feller (Oct 4, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> its one of those things you dont pay a lot of attention to, you just do it


 
That's true for me too. When I first started I had no budget and a very underpowered saw. I frequently would have problems after making the top cut first. When I made the bottom cut the wedge would drop onto the B/C and absolutely kill the saw, creating huge headaches. Now that I have enough saw (MS650 pulling a 25") it doesn't matter. The weight of the wedge is a non issue even with a tree exceeding the length of the bar, and I got pretty good at dropping the trees right where I wanted making the top cut first. Of course there is a limit and if you're cutting wedges the size of Volkswagens, that all goes right out the window! After reading this thread I went out today and made some bottom cuts first just for practicing the skill, and WOW I really sucked after not doing it for a while. The first one one I did resulted in a totally amateurish dutchman which required a sizable correction worthy of a youtube video before I could make the back cut. I quickly pulled my head out and did better on the next one. 

So I guess my point is the power of the saw does have some bearing on your ability to make the top cut first. I don't disagree with the posts stating making the bottom cut first is better in regard to felling accuracy, but I do know that with enough practice one can get really good at felling accuracy making the top cut first. Either way you go, just do your practicing away from the house!(and the fence, and the power lines, and the truck, and... you get the point)


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## pbtree (Oct 4, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Notwithstanding the excellent comments above, I have one other consideration:
> 
> Assuming accurate placement of your cuts, it's easier to finish a wedge cut when the wedge falls away from your bar instead of on top of your bar. I generally do "diagonal down" last on big trees, so that I do not have to worry about a 20 pound chunk of wood pinching my bar.
> 
> ...


 
I concur!


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## forestryworks (Oct 4, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> If you happen to be doing a Humboldt cut or some other fancy felling cut, that will change all the previous considerations.


 
Nah, a humboldt is just a right side up face cut 

Plus if you do a humboldt with a large enough opening, that "wedge" is gonna slide right out.

On the conventional, it just sits down onto your under cut. So whether you finished with the undercut or diagonal, you still gotta wrestle out the conventional "wedge" more than the humboldt "wedge", IMO.


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## pdqdl (Oct 4, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> Nah, a humboldt is just a right side up face cut
> 
> Plus if you do a humboldt with a large enough opening, that "wedge" is gonna slide right out.
> 
> On the conventional, it just sits down onto your under cut. So whether you finished with the undercut or diagonal, you still gotta wrestle out the conventional "wedge" more than the humboldt "wedge", IMO.


 
So...doesn't that change the considerations for how to do the cut?

Besides, there are generally special reasons for using a humbolt: big timber with huge wedges, severe slopes, a special interest in preserving the wood value, and a greater than average amount of operator skill by fellers working in big timber. Once you get up to needing the humbolt, the operator skills should be above the need to read this thread.

I've been doing this for over 25 years, and I don't think I have ever needed to use a humbolt.


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## tree MDS (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that doing your top cut first is considerably safer. Using this method, the tree will still hinge, even if the bottom cut is considerably higher than the bottom of your top cut. hope that made some sense.


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## Youngbuck20 (Oct 4, 2011)

Ive always done my flat cut first just because i find it easier to aim the tree and gauge the 1/3 depth on the tree. Now that im in school he (teacher) wants us to do the angle cut first because if you look down your angle cut while your cutting your flat cut you can see where your bar is and prevents you from cutting too far. Gunna take some gettin used to.


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## Greener (Oct 7, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I learned to do my flat cut first so that is how I do it. I have seen others that cut down first and do alright. But I don't see how you can be accurate unless you do your flat cut first, how else can you sight it? I take some big tops and drop them in tight places. Not only do you have to aim them, the depth and size of your notch is critical and is different on every cut if they are to land right. You can't make a mistake when your strapped to the tree 60ft up.
> Maybe on the ground you have more lee way, but shouldn't you learn the more accurate method, even if it is a little more difficult to master? I'm sure many will disagree.
> The bottom line is there are many, many other variables to safely felling a tree, and if you can't hit your cuts while making your notch because its to hard, what else are you missing that might get you killed. Making a notch and sighting it in is the first basic you should be able to learn before being a competent faller or topper. It might be a good survey question to ask. flat first or angle first. Is one better then the other? I vote flat first. Beastmaster



I think Beastmaster got it right on here. It is very important in directional falling to line up the undercut and diagonal cuts accurately. It is tougher to start with the undercut and match up with the diagonal but the undercut must be first in order to line up the direction of the face, and thus the direction of the fall. Most newcomers tend to miss when doing the diagonal (top) cut second. The roll of the bar (that is the tilt from top to bottom-not nose to powerhead-of the bar) is key. When learning to match up the top cut with the undercut, it is common to come up short on the far side of the undercut. This is often because the rookie cutter needs to move the top of the bar toward the ground more and the gut (bottom) of the bar more toward the sky. I have completed enough Dutchman's myself to know this. In another post here, someone mentioned marking the corners (the two edges of the undercut) before completing the top cut of the face. This is good advice. I know many here have suggested doing the top/diag. cut first but, in the interest of having more confidence in terms of the direction the tree will fall, the undercut should be first because you can sight it in. You can't really do this in a meaningful way when doing the diag. cut first. Just my two cents. As Beastmaster mentions, whether you are a a climber or a pure feller, the direction of the fall is crucial. Also, get "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work" by G.F. Beranek. He explains face cut several techniques very well and it is worth the investment.


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## Greener (Oct 7, 2011)

I think Beastmaster got it right on here. It is very important in directional falling to line up the undercut and diagonal cuts accurately. It is tougher to start with the undercut and match up with the diagonal but the undercut must be first in order to line up the direction of the face, and thus the direction of the fall. Most newcomers tend to miss when doing the diagonal (top) cut second. The roll of the bar (that is the tilt from top to bottom-not nose to powerhead-of the bar) is key. When learning to match up the top cut with the undercut, it is common to come up short on the far side of the undercut. This is often because the rookie cutter needs to move the top of the bar toward the ground more and the gut (bottom) of the bar more toward the sky. I have completed enough Dutchman's myself to know this. In another post here, someone mentioned marking the corners (the two edges of the undercut) before completing the top cut of the face. This is good advice. I know many here have suggested doing the top/diag. cut first but, in the interest of having more confidence in terms of the direction the tree will fall, the undercut should be first because you can sight it in. You can't really do this in a meaningful way when doing the diag. cut first. Just my two cents. As Beastmaster mentions, whether you are a a climber or a pure feller, the direction of the fall is crucial. Also, get "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work" by G.F. Beranek. He explains face cut several techniques very well and it is worth the investment.


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## fraidofheights (Oct 7, 2011)

*Thanks to everyone who took the time to write.*

I'm gonna do the diagonals first, for now, because most of the stuff I'm falling isn't that important, but I'll be collecting bolts to work on my wedges. Any books that you guys say sound good and I'll probably order them on payday if they're good because I'm up to my butt in arborist books and my girlfriend wants me reading all the time and you can always learn something new. My falling sucks still but I'm practicing and I can't believe my old man survived the way he did this stuff around the property and I cant believe I survived childhood either.

Thanks.


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## Greener (Oct 8, 2011)

fraidofheights said:


> I'm gonna do the diagonals first, for now, because most of the stuff I'm falling isn't that important, but I'll be collecting bolts to work on my wedges. Any books that you guys say sound good and I'll probably order them on payday if they're good because I'm up to my butt in arborist books and my girlfriend wants me reading all the time and you can always learn something new. My falling sucks still but I'm practicing and I can't believe my old man survived the way he did this stuff around the property and I cant believe I survived childhood either.
> 
> Thanks.



Practice, practice and more practice. Happy felling.


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## Mr. Woods (Oct 8, 2011)

I recommend "To Fell a Tree" by Jeff Jepson. A very good book for just a few bucks.


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## beastmaster (Oct 8, 2011)

I just want to add that if you do your bottom cut first and come up short on the angle cut its not that difficult to go back in and fix it. I also after doing my flat cut gun the saw a few times to clean out the saw dust, then I can get to eye level with the cut and aim for my mark. On large trees it helps if someone is guiding you from the otherside(for us flatlanders)of the tree. With practice you'll get the hang of being able to make your down cut go longer or shorter as needed. Beastmaster


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 8, 2011)

We dont harvest wood but I must say, a Humbolt is a good notch in many applications.
Jeff


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## Hard Maple (Oct 8, 2011)

Practice,Practice and more Practice. I agree fully about reading all you can but if you do not get out there and put it to use it doesnt really help you, just my two cents.


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## wyk (Oct 9, 2011)

It is just as easy to gun your sights regardless which cut you start on - assuming you start your cut gunned. The advantage to starting the bottom/horizontal cut first is you can gun it while the saw is in the cut more easily. All saws I have used have gunning sights on top and sides. However, if you start the the top diagonal first on a conventional cut, you can actually look down the cut as you start the horizontal and match them up perfectly each and every time - you will never mis-align your cuts so long as you can sight down the top cut as you saw, and I find it is faster to use in forestry, where they aren't terribly concerned about the wood loss since you have to cut ont he forest floor anyways. I used to do the flat cut first as a gunning sight, but after having worked in Europe, I have switched. If the tree is large, I will leave just enough wood left so it doesn't pinch my bar between the cuts, and just nick it from the top to finish the cut.


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