# Velocity split tail system?



## eagleknight97 (Mar 8, 2007)

I have no climbing equipment of my own yet, but plan on getting some in the near future. The rope im looking at is Velocity. My question however is what would I use for a traditional split tail system as the split tail? I would probably be tying in with a Blakes hitch and hip thrusting initially, so what would you guys recomend?


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## PUclimber (Mar 8, 2007)

Well you've chosen a good rope to look at it's got good feel and everything but can be hard to grip if you're just starting out. As far as the split tail system using a blakes you don't have to use a split tail to begin. You can use the tail of your rope to tie your blakes. Just leave a long enough tail when tying into your saddle to make the bridge over to your other side of your rope to tie your blakes and put a stopper knot in.


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 8, 2007)

PUclimber said:


> Well you've chosen a good rope to look at it's got good feel and everything but can be hard to grip if you're just starting out. As far as the split tail system using a blakes you don't have to use a split tail to begin. You can use the tail of your rope to tie your blakes. Just leave a long enough tail when tying into your saddle to make the bridge over to your other side of your rope to tie your blakes and put a stopper knot in.



Yeah, I know, but I dont like the traditional climbing system, the split tail is much nicer.....at least in my VERY limited amount of climbing.


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## DonnyO (Mar 8, 2007)

Best to cut your teeth on the traditional set-up. Then move on to more advanced stuff.


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 8, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> Best to cut your teeth on the traditional set-up. Then move on to more advanced stuff.




I agree with this as far as hitches go...........stay with the Blakes 'til you feel comfortable.


The split tail makes good sense with the above mentioned hitch just because you don't need to untie and retie you hitch as you would using a tail from your climbing line!


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## Blinky (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm using Poison Ivy, pretty similar to Velocity and I had the same question when I switched from an 8mm Distel Split-tail to a Blake's... Where do I get an 11mm split tail?

First I tried a regular 1/2" 12 strand split tail and didn't like the bulky knot.

So I cut a 5' section off my rope and used it it, works fine but i'd just as soon have a different color for my split tail and I didn't want to cut another 5' off or use with a double crotch... which was why I went to the Blake's in the first place.

I thought about buying 150' of velocity as a second rope and cutting 5' off of it... I still might do that.

But what I found is that a 1/2" Tenex split tail from Sherril's works like a champ. I really like it... broke in fast and it's soft and controllable, better than the 5' of PI I cut. The only drawback is that it supposedly wears pretty fast... time will tell, I've only used it a few times so far.

When you descend on a Blake's, do it slow. The bottom wraps takes a lot of wear when you descend.


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## Magnum783 (Mar 8, 2007)

Blinky said:


> I'm using Poison Ivy, pretty similar to Velocity and I had the same question when I switched from an 8mm Distel Split-tail to a Blake's... Where do I get an 11mm split tail?
> 
> First I tried a regular 1/2" 12 strand split tail and didn't like the bulky knot.
> 
> ...



Get with Nick from WI to make you a spliced eye or eye to eye. He is a memeber here on AS and does great work and even better customer service. About anything that is spliced he can do. If you are using velocity use the other color for a split tail. I know for fact right now wesspur has a short hank of velocity hot that they are selling for 40% off. Look for deals like that to make your split tails from. Both Kumerlings and Oklahoma arbroist will sell you rope by the foot if you so choose also. Kumerlings does the same thing as wesspur that is selll short hanks of rope for cheap. I would recomend you to go with a 1/2" line to start it is much easier to grab that 7/16" nothing against the little stuff it has it's place just not to start on. IMO
Jared


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 8, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> Best to cut your teeth on the traditional set-up. Then move on to more advanced stuff.



Well, I dont plan on doing any footlocking or any SRT till I have body thrusting down pat and all the knots associated with that, but I dont like the idea of having to un-tie and re-tie with the traditional system. I didnt think split tail was advanced though.


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## PUclimber (Mar 8, 2007)

Well the tenex or ultra tech or technora or bee line make great split tails. I am telling you we need to hook up and I can help you out and teach you much. I can splice and would be willing to splice up a rope for a split tail for you.


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## DKdeOhio (Mar 8, 2007)

*Hey PU Climber*

Hey PU Climber - What knot do you tie into using the above mentioned system? (long tail as the 'split tali') ? Anchor knot? Do you back up with anything? 
Thanks in advance!


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## hornett22 (Mar 8, 2007)

*i disagree.*

i started out using a bridge with the climbing rope and it was a pain.i switched over right away to the split tail and never looked back.it's personnal preference i suppose.i know a guy who has been climbing for over 20 years and he won't switch to a split tail.
just be careful and pay attention when tying your knots and you should be fine.

i should mention,i mean this for general climbing only,not limb walking.that is a whole nother ball game i would recommend some low altitude practice with the split tail there. be safe!


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## Treeman587 (Mar 8, 2007)

eagleknight97 said:


> Well, I dont plan on doing any footlocking or any SRT till I have body thrusting down pat and all the knots associated with that, but I dont like the idea of having to un-tie and re-tie with the traditional system. I didnt think split tail was advanced though.



Look at it this way, Being a college boy I know you have some math(I liked calculus, but hey i was a dork, now i have a better costume). 

Everytime you add a variable to the equation, it is harder to solve the outcome. Trust us when we say keep it simple, and take your time. Once you have learned the most basics of the system, then you can change it up. This is your life, crawl before you walk.


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 9, 2007)

*He did the same thing to me!*



DonnyO said:


> Best to cut your teeth on the traditional set-up. Then move on to more advanced stuff.




You'll need to be able to tie those knots in your sleep, thats why......

I've seen PUclimber offer to help you out in person a number of times, there is only so much you can learn from the computer, you should get with this guy. IMHO you need a mentor in this biz, so go find one! (like Donny is to me!)


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## PUclimber (Mar 9, 2007)

DKde,
Hey there well with the longer split tail with only a single eye you can tie in using the tautline or blakes. If I use this system I usually leave the bridge longer between the attachment and the friction hitch when ascending the tree depending on many things whether I am alone or have to advance up to a final tie in spot. By leaving it longer you get a longer pull when body thrusting and then once you get ready to work you can safety in and then retie it with a shorter bridge so it's easily available there to work off of and to control your slack in and out. I still think with any system the micro pulley is the greatest thing ever. If you have a groundman you can have you on belay and tend your slack from the ground then there's no need to tie it longer while ascending. 

OTG,
Thanks for the compliment. I am still a college guy myself with one more year left and Harvey Holt has done wonders for the arboriculture and urban forestry program at Purdue. It's still not a big program but it turns out quality students. He's a great professor and along with the regular forestry curriculum we get a wide education. I've been climbing around 2 years now and have worked for companies big and small and I actually helped out with the climbing course this past year and I had older guys who were teaching assistants who taught me how to climb so it's helpful to have someone to talk to and ask questions and I look at it as we're a family out here trying to help each other out.


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 9, 2007)

PUclimber said:


> DKde,
> Hey there well with the longer split tail with only a single eye you can tie in using the tautline or blakes. If I use this system I usually leave the bridge longer between the attachment and the friction hitch when ascending the tree depending on many things whether I am alone or have to advance up to a final tie in spot. By leaving it longer you get a longer pull when body thrusting and then once you get ready to work you can safety in and then retie it with a shorter bridge so it's easily available there to work off of and to control your slack in and out. I still think with any system the micro pulley is the greatest thing ever. If you have a groundman you can have you on belay and tend your slack from the ground then there's no need to tie it longer while ascending.
> 
> OTG,
> Thanks for the compliment. I am still a college guy myself with one more year left and Harvey Holt has done wonders for the arboriculture and urban forestry program at Purdue. It's still not a big program but it turns out quality students. He's a great professor and along with the regular forestry curriculum we get a wide education. I've been climbing around 2 years now and have worked for companies big and small and I actually helped out with the climbing course this past year and I had older guys who were teaching assistants who taught me how to climb so it's helpful to have someone to talk to and ask questions and I look at it as we're a family out here trying to help each other out.



Well said, if I can offer one piece of advice its find a good mentor. As you get better and change you will find different mentors, but you can always pick up the phone if you have a question or a problem. And hey, we're hiring 

I didn't know Purdue had an Arbor program. The one at Umass is the oldest in the country but they average about 15 grads a year . Sad state of affairs for the industry..........


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## Blinky (Mar 9, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> ...
> there is only so much you can learn from the computer, you should get with this guy. IMHO you need a mentor in this biz, so go find one! (like Donny is to me!)



Truer words have not been spoken. You need to work WITH someone, preferrably a long time to get to know what's going on. Treework is full of surprises and there are hard ways and easy ways to do things... and climbing is only part of the equation... knowing and caring for trees is impossible to learn from a book alone. You need to watch and talk with other climbers... go to comps too and volunteer to help out... find ways to imerse yourself in climbing and arborcare.

As for the rope bridge vs. the split tail... I don't think a split tail over complicates things much, and learning to work your TIP up the tree is pretty important... a split tail makes that easier. OTOH, you do need to know how to use a rope bridge so you can spontaneously double crotch when you need to.


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## DKdeOhio (Mar 9, 2007)

*Pu*

Thanks for taking the time to respond, PU Climber. I appreciate the info....Lots of guys (& gals) willing to help fellow tree ppl out, what a compliment to the ppl in the industry (IMO)...


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## NickfromWI (Mar 9, 2007)

Magnum783 said:


> Get with Nick from WI to make you a spliced eye or eye to eye. He is a memeber here on AS and does great work and even better customer service. About anything that is spliced he can do.
> Jared



Thanks Jared!

I usually sell the split tails about 5.5-6' long....which is REALLY long for a split tail. If people are just starting out, I recommend they leave it long for a few weeks until they know what they are looking for. 

Blinky, it sounds like you're on the right track. Traditional system's ONLY advantage is that it doesn't require extra gear- thus making it ideal for the occasional double-crotching. If you have the split tail, and are comfortable with one more carabiner- you're good to go!

love
nick


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 9, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> You'll need to be able to tie those knots in your sleep, thats why......



I understand that and agree completely, however, using the split tail and the traditional system, i would be tying the exact same knots, so I guess im failing to see why you guys are saying to not use a split tail right away, its the exact same thing except for using a split tail as your friction hitch instead of the last 4ft or so of your climbing line.....right, or am I totally missing something?


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## Treeman587 (Mar 9, 2007)

Whatever do what you want. 

Can anyone tell me the knot we use most, everday, multiple times. 

If you said Bowline you are correct.

EK97, You don't just use the end of your climbing line, you have to tie in and leave a tail. If you just use the end of the climbing line it can go where it wants and then you are stuck. And have to climb around again. By not using a split tail and learning the correct way to tie in(which you apparently have not), you will get a better understanding of how things operate. Don't argue :newbie: ,There is a way to learn how to do this. You have to start with the simplest techniques and advance from there. You didn't start reading with Shakespeare did you? Nope I am williing to bet it was Cookie Monster and Big Bird like the rest of us


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 9, 2007)

*do whatever you want guy!*



eagleknight97 said:


> Well, I dont plan on doing any footlocking or any SRT till I have body thrusting down pat and all the knots associated with that, but I dont like the idea of having to un-tie and re-tie with the traditional system. I didnt think split tail was advanced though.





eagleknight97 said:


> I understand that and agree completely, however, using the split tail and the traditional system, i would be tying the exact same knots, so I guess im failing to see why you guys are saying to not use a split tail right away, its the exact same thing except for using a split tail as your friction hitch instead of the last 4ft or so of your climbing line.....right, or am I totally missing something?



I'm just giving you the best advice I can. So let me ask you a couple of questions: Do you want to know all the knots associated with bodythrusting and have them down pat? (like you say in the first post I highlighted here?) or do you want to skip all that?


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 9, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> Whatever do what you want.
> 
> Can anyone tell me the knot we use most, everday, multiple times.
> 
> ...


I know a bowline but when I worked with a village forester for 2 summers, he never once used a bowline. As far as climbing went, it was always a Blakes or a Prusik. Im not saying I shouldnt start simple, cuz I completely agree with that, I guess I just didnt realize there was that much of a difference between body thrusting with a split than body thrusting without. Ive only body thrusted with a split tail so I figured that was a very beginner way to do things.


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 9, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> I'm just giving you the best advice I can. So let me ask you a couple of questions: Do you want to know all the knots associated with bodythrusting and have them down pat? (like you say in the first post I highlighted here?) or do you want to skip all that?



I dont want to skip anything really, and like I said in one of my previous posts, I want body thrusting down before I even try anything else. I failed to see the difference between body thrusting with a split tail and without, but I have been told numerous times there is a big difference, so I will have to take that advice.


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 9, 2007)

eagleknight97 said:


> I know a bowline but when I worked with a village forester for 2 summers, he never once used a bowline. As far as climbing went, it was always a Blakes or a Prusik. Im not saying I shouldnt start simple, cuz I completely agree with that, I guess I just didnt realize there was that much of a difference between body thrusting with a split than body thrusting without. Ive only body thrusted with a split tail so I figured that was a very beginner way to do things.




:bang: :bang: :bang: The bowline would be the knot used to anchor the climbing line to your saddle. Leave the tail of the bowline long to tie your fig 8 friction hitch and another fig8.

Thats all you're getting out of me, call PUclimber and get some hands on instruction.............and good luck


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 9, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> :bang: :bang: :bang: The bowline would be the knot used to anchor the climbing line to your saddle. Leave the tail of the bowline long to tie your fig 8 friction hitch and another fig8.
> 
> Thats all you're getting out of me, call PUclimber and get some hands on instruction.............and good luck



LOL, large amount of dumbassness on my part there......I read bowline but thought you meant tautline.......:newbie: many apologies on my part for this, I havent made myself look very smart or willing to accept advice


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## PUclimber (Mar 9, 2007)

Well here it goes as far as the split tail you're right it is the same knots and stuff. Well the bowline is important since it can be untied easily after schocking it since it doesn't seem to bind up as much as others. For my attachment knot to my saddle I prefer tying the anchor hitch. I think it's much smoother or cleaner but as far as the split tail you'll want to learn both ways since you never know what may happen. You may forget your split tail at a previous job or maybe you may cut it and this way you can tie in using the left over tail after tying your anchor hitch to tie your blakes hitch. The figure 8 knot that was brought up previously doesn't need to be tied twice you only need it has a stopper knot on the end of the tail. Some suggest putting one in the bridge in case of an aerial rescue is in need and the bridge needs to be cut that way you know where to cut. If using a split tail that is something other than the climb line then it should be easily distinguished. The basics are those things that you can do with minimal gear though in case you do forget something and you will also need this method to double crotch unless you carry two split tails with you. I think I covered it but if I'm missing something let me know.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 9, 2007)

eagleknight97 said:


> LOL, large amount of dumbassness on my part there......I read bowline but thought you meant tautline.......:newbie: many apologies on my part for this, I havent made myself look very smart or willing to accept advice



Ah, grasshoppa, Humbleness is your first large step.


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## NickfromWI (Mar 9, 2007)

You are on the right track, eagleknight. If you are proficient at using the blakes, it doesn't matter if you can tie/use a bowline. 

You don't need to use a bowline until you start rigging, really.

love
nick


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## DonnyO (Mar 9, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> You'll need to be able to tie those knots in your sleep, thats why......
> 
> I've seen PUclimber offer to help you out in person a number of times, there is only so much you can learn from the computer, you should get with this guy. IMHO you need a mentor in this biz, so go find one! (like Donny is to me!)




Thanks G, not makin' too many friends around here.............:bang:


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## Magnum783 (Mar 9, 2007)

eagleknight97 said:


> LOL, large amount of dumbassness on my part there......I read bowline but thought you meant tautline.......:newbie: many apologies on my part for this, I havent made myself look very smart or willing to accept advice



Look I am GI every day of the week and I have supervisory powers over ten troops. If any one of my troops were as ingnrant about listening to as many smart people like Donny, OTG and the others that have told you to try the traditional standard system. They would be pushing concrete so long there arms would burst into flames. So here the long in the short of it. Learn the traditonal way, tie all the knots, and practice. They progress from there. No one yet to my knowledge has told you, you had to climb on it for a certain ammount of time so try just one day for pete's sake. Quit being a tool bag and follow what those who are older than wiser than you have told you to do!!!!

People who have the attitude like your seems to be just prove my point about officer ( they have collage degrees too) they just think they are smarter than the rest of us ground pounders. Sorry to those who have a degree and have yet retained some ammount of common sense. 

Props to OTG and Donny and the rest of you guys. Forget this guy, let him try his beloved split tail and never learn the old fashion way. It is his life not ours.
Jared


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## eagleknight97 (Mar 9, 2007)

Magnum783 said:


> Look I am GI every day of the week and I have supervisory powers over ten troops. If any one of my troops were as ingnrant about listening to as many smart people like Donny, OTG and the others that have told you to try the traditional standard system. They would be pushing concrete so long there arms would burst into flames. So here the long in the short of it. Learn the traditonal way, tie all the knots, and practice. They progress from there. No one yet to my knowledge has told you, you had to climb on it for a certain ammount of time so try just one day for pete's sake. Quit being a tool bag and follow what those who are older than wiser than you have told you to do!!!!
> 
> People who have the attitude like your seems to be just prove my point about officer ( they have collage degrees too) they just think they are smarter than the rest of us ground pounders. Sorry to those who have a degree and have yet retained some ammount of common sense.
> 
> ...



Perhaps you didnt read what you quoted me saying in your post???


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## DonnyO (Mar 9, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> Ah, grasshoppa, Humbleness is your first large step.





Magnum783 said:


> Look I am GI every day of the week and I have supervisory powers over ten troops. If any one of my troops were as ingnrant about listening to as many smart people like Donny, OTG and the others that have told you to try the traditional standard system. They would be pushing concrete so long there arms would burst into flames. So here the long in the short of it. Learn the traditonal way, tie all the knots, and practice. They progress from there. No one yet to my knowledge has told you, you had to climb on it for a certain ammount of time so try just one day for pete's sake. Quit being a tool bag and follow what those who are older than wiser than you have told you to do!!!!
> 
> People who have the attitude like your seems to be just prove my point about officer ( they have collage degrees too) they just think they are smarter than the rest of us ground pounders. Sorry to those who have a degree and have yet retained some ammount of common sense.
> 
> ...




This is what you can expect when you graduate. Having a college degree is going to put alot of people off (mostly good, old school tree guys). So learn early how to take advice, and remain humble, and keep your mouth shut long enough to let some one WANT to teach you. You're not entitled to anything in this profession, you earn it.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 10, 2007)

Starting with the basics is an excellent idea. It makes you much more versatile. And besides, some of the basic techniques i learned, i still use to this day. They are the basics because they have proven to be simple and guaranteed to work.


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## moray (Mar 10, 2007)

*people getting huffy*



eagleknight97 said:


> I understand that and agree completely, however, using the split tail and the traditional system, i would be tying the exact same knots, so I guess im failing to see why you guys are saying to not use a split tail right away, its the exact same thing except for using a split tail as your friction hitch instead of the last 4ft or so of your climbing line.....right, or am I totally missing something?



Eagleknight, for what it's worth, I reluctantly enter this fray on your side. Certainly there is no harm in trying the old-fashioned way for a couple of climbs. But I quickly gave it up. Now use a tenex 2-eye split tail. Never tie a Blake's. However, I have been in a tree with a friend, passing hardware and ropes back and forth for some project or other, and suddenly found myself with one carabiner and no split tail. It was nice at the point to remember how to tie an attachment knot (double fisherman's) and then tie a Blake's with the tail. So you do need to know how to rig up an old-fashioned system, but there is little point in spending much time with it IMHO. You are certainly right that there is technically very little difference between the two systems.


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## newguy18 (Mar 19, 2007)

*you probably wont agree*

i use rope i buy from lowes and i perfer the tautline traditional method of climbing. i tried the blakes and i thought it bit to hard on the rope.i also found that the prusik loop tied with a traditional prusik loop as a split tail wroked fine.it can also double as a large flipline.bill howe husky 51 husky 141 little homelite:angry2:  :deadhorse: :greenchainsaw:


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