# Reaction Wood



## treeseer (Jun 17, 2010)

the pic is of reaction wood formed in the last few years on a big crepemyrtle.

Anyone else have pics of unusual trunk formations that were apparently formed in response to crown loading?


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## D Mc (Jun 17, 2010)

I thought I had a better picture of this tree but hopefully this shows the degree of twisting in the trunk. It is radical. Looks like a piece of rope. 

This is a silver maple, approximately 100 years old. There is another tree, same age, same species, probably from the same nursery, about 100 ft away, with the same exposure, that is perfectly straight trunked. 

How do you determine the causal of the reaction with any certainty? 

Dave


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## D Mc (Jun 17, 2010)

Awww, found another picture of the tree.

Dave


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## tree md (Jun 17, 2010)

Very cool!

I saw a lot of that in the trees along the coast in N. California. I had some pics but can't seem to find them at the moment.


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## Bermie (Jun 17, 2010)

Is it possible that those big long low horizontal spreading branches are acting like a sail, causing a twist in the trunk, whereas the other tree's branches are going straight up, exerting less twisting effect...


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## Daddy M Dawg (Jun 17, 2010)

treeseer said:


> the pic is of reaction wood formed in the last few years on a big crepemyrtle.
> 
> Anyone else have pics of unusual trunk formations that were apparently formed in response to crown loading?



Looks like a person holding one arm up on the lead on the right. Cool pic.


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## derwoodii (Jun 18, 2010)

Ok heres a Corymbia citriodora, lemon scented gum. The smooth bark enhances the look of the twistin wood. Its one with the lot for structure faults but never has it given me grief and I known it for 15 years.
















Its a tree with a lot of attitude eh.
I been up one of these blockin off sections when the tension came out "bang" like a gun shot over the noise of my saw. A crack opened down from my cross cut.


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## treeseer (Jun 18, 2010)

nice pics, thanks. Dave, maybe we can approach certainty on the cause by hearing derwoodii's experience with the tree's response to cutting. I favor The Bermster's theory--she took a beauteous pic of a tamarind limb that indicates this kind of growth is reaction wood indeed. (but i cannot find it right now)


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## D Mc (Jun 18, 2010)

treeseer said:


> ... that indicates this kind of growth is reaction wood indeed. ...



I probably was too vague with my question. These unusual reactions do look to be adaptive growth and with lab work should prove cellular changes consistent with such. 

What I was questioning was what triggered that particular response. Given similar stress parameters, most trees do not develop these unusual solutions.

So are these trees the drummers of the tree world? You know, the same but....different?

Dave


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## derwoodii (Jun 18, 2010)

Could be, I kinda think its a response to damage at juvenile stage and as tissue is damaged but stable enough to support the wood builds upon a twisted base that the tree perpetuates as the most stable form over inherited structure fault. If able the tree would preffer to grow as normal saving a lot of energy building those vaults of support. But with some luck n time it becomes sound & unique in form. The Treeco pix and discussion I saw as possible or part explanation however I think many are tissue response to mutation agents eg mites virus DNA not mechanical.
Treeseer did you get to read Cassian H article I tried to link. All I have is glanced at the pictures I will give it some time and see what it says.


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## derwoodii (Jun 18, 2010)

All I seem not to be able to post a link to this article perhaps try n dig yourselves using key words below. 

Self Optimisation of Gum trees – Braided Reaction Wood Development


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## treeseer (Jun 18, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> All I seem not to be able to post a link to this article perhaps try n dig yourselves using key words below.
> 
> Self Optimisation of Gum trees – Braided Reaction Wood Development


the only copy i have of this is 2.24 mb and this site only allows 1.25 no bigger. 

fasciation may look similar but is often caused by buds splitting, and not mechanical stress. but true this is guessing and yes coring and looking at the tissues up close would be interesting


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## treevet (Jun 19, 2010)

Reaction wood has historically been defined as wood altered as a result of lean in a tree with the inclusion of compression on the underside and tension wood on the upper side. This I am sure also refers to lateral branches and the extreme pressure that gravity can impose on them if they are are long and heavy (that would lean towards the ground). 

Seems most of this thread is about fasciation.

I have also considered reaction wood to be such as a phenomenon called "bottle butt" where a tree's structural strength is undermined by extensive decay in the base and there is a swelling ....

likely caused by the tree moving in ALL directions by even mild winds and the diminishing ability of degrading wood (through progressive decay) to keep the tree erect. (is there tension and compression wood all around?)

It also seems to me that a tree exposed to perpetually strong prevailing winds would develop reaction wood just as a leaning tree would. ( I suppose it intermittently leans away from the wind?)

But these 2 examples and the phenomena of fasciation are never in the definition of "reaction wood" I have seen anywhere.......so

maybe another term and definition needs to exist.


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## D Mc (Jun 19, 2010)

These are not representations of fasciation. 

Sinclair, Diseases of Trees and Shrubs, "This term connotes abnormal *flattening* of plant organs, usually stems, as the result of the change in form of the *apical *meristem from a minute dome to a jagged row of generative cells perpendicular to the stem axis."

The key here is fasciation develops in the apical meristem. The apical meristem is, in most cases, forever altered producing distorted leaves and flowers. Rarely (if ever) will growth revert to normal from the meristematic area once altered. In all the pictures here on this thread, you will see nonaltered, normal structure growing beyond the initial point of change. 

Though exaggerations, these are examples of dynamic responses, not cellular mutation.

Dave


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## treevet (Jun 19, 2010)

In contradiction to some of the material provided by Guy but nevertheless still not on topic with "Reaction Wood".

I have read definitions in Shigo's material including the dictionary and "Glossary of Arb. Terms"...Matheny and Clark....Haller...etc. and could easily go on and we are not on topic.


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## S Mc (Jun 19, 2010)

It is easy to get into a "black and white" mind set.

ANY wood that forms in response to some external or internal force produces a "reaction". This could then be termed "reaction wood". Trees are reactionary organisms; hence, all the "tropisms". They constantly react to their environment.

If you are looking for a definition of "reaction wood" as defined by Shigo, Harris, Matheny, Clark, et al, then you will find their definition of same. They are all referring to the gravitational forces of why and how a tree stands up, corrects leans, grows horizontally, etc.

This does not preclude the use of the word "reaction" in any other context.

This is very reminiscent of the unproductive discussions dealing with word definitions such as vitality vs vigor, disease vs disorder; where in one context they are very specific but also true in another context with broader sense.

Many words (most) have multiple applications and meanings. But I don't see how fasciation is a good substitution here for the phenomena we are seeing in these photos. Perhaps "adaptive growth" would be a more comfortable term for some in this discussion.

Sylvia


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## treevet (Jun 19, 2010)

S Mc said:


> It is easy to get into a "black and white" mind set.
> 
> 
> > ANY wood that forms in response to some external or internal force produces a "reaction". This could then be termed "reaction wood". Trees are reactionary organisms; hence, all the "tropisms". They constantly react to their environment.
> ...


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## D Mc (Jun 19, 2010)

treevet;2291137 Maybe just becoming just a tad snooty from passing a test most others have not even taken?...[/QUOTE said:


> Your inability to process new concepts and your trollish jabs are what limit many from entering into what should be fun and educational discussions.
> 
> You defend your stance by referencing others that challenged the status-quo of their time and, in so doing, redefined words and introduced concepts that benefited us all with new understanding. Doing what you do becomes self-limiting in the acquisition of knowledge.
> 
> Dave


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## treevet (Jun 19, 2010)

"we must define our terms" Shigo

now go back and finish cleaning the kitchen like mommy told you to.


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## S Mc (Jun 19, 2010)

treevet said:


> "we must define our terms" Shigo



Yes, this is what he said. Where did he say "stop thinking"?

Treevet, your ability to become offensive passes all bounds.

Sylvia


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## JeffL (Jun 19, 2010)

I'll get some pics on Monday. I know of a 90'~ish foot White Pine at one of our clients properties I'll be at that has a very good example of reaction wood. The tree grows at about a 5-10* lean, with about a 28-30" trunk, the bottom 10 feet of the trunk on the underside of the lean is ripple after ripple, looks like an accordion. Pretty cool.


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## treevet (Jun 19, 2010)

S Mc said:


> Yes, this is what he said. Where did he say "stop thinking"?
> 
> Treevet, your ability to become offensive passes all bounds.
> 
> Sylvia



You are very offensive yourself lady.

I too looked forward to a discussion about reaction wood. The thread titled "Reaction wood" might suggest a definition of reaction wood. I give opinion on a definition. Your husband replies with a longwinded DEFINITION of "fasciation" copied from a text. Duhhhh. 

Next you scold me for GIVING DEFINITIONS and, in true form as a woman, bring up something from a year ago (again where you challenged me giving a definition.....not a wrong definition mind you, just a definition......for relevant words in a thread where you, in your usual self important fashion, prefer to make your own definitions).

"Any wood that forms in response to some external or internal forces produces a reaction. This could then be termed "reaction wood" Sylvia MC

REALLY?? Then ALL wood that has formed any time any place in the history of wood is reaction wood.

You need to get your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and quit pushing your husband into making silly posts.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 19, 2010)

tree md said:


> Very cool!
> 
> I saw a lot of that in the trees along the coast in N. California. I had some pics but can't seem to find them at the moment.



Like the corkscrew redwood for example?

I'm not certain that twisted looking trunks are reaction wood in many cases. Here's part of the corkscrew redwood, and another along Prairie Creek trail.



S Mc said:


> It is easy to get into a "black and white" mind set.
> 
> ANY wood that forms in response to some external or internal force produces a "reaction". This could then be termed "reaction wood". Trees are reactionary organisms; hence, all the "tropisms". They constantly react to their environment.



In the loose sense of "reactionary" we could even include the tree itself as part of its environment. Where virtually all wood of every tree would be reactionary.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 19, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Maybe the trees that are the subject of this thread are laying down mutated tissue. It should be test-able with the right funding.



Maybe we can see if some of that stimulus money is still floating around.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 20, 2010)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Maybe we can see if some of that stimulus money is still floating around.



I'll bet most sunk straight to the bottom of politician's pockets.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 20, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Is it possible that those big long low horizontal spreading branches are acting like a sail, causing a twist in the trunk, whereas the other tree's branches are going straight up, exerting less twisting effect...



Excellent observation. Surely producing exceptional torque in relation....it stands to reason.


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## elmnut (Jun 20, 2010)

tension wood forms under a limb, compression wood forms on the topside of a limb, reaction wood forms as a result of growing conditions, ie: growing on a slope, prevailing winds,"a reaction to the conditions"


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## treeseer (Jun 20, 2010)

Mario, nice ridge on that first pic! That's what I'm talking about.

Watch for the 2nd draft of the ANSI Risk standard to come out for review on the TCIA site soon. It will have what may become the "official" definition of reaction wood. Something about wood formed in response to mechanical stress. Woundwood is not in there, at present.

Ripples on the underside of the lean of a pine would be interesting to see. I've seen em on the tension side of a beech. I can't rule out mutation but it's far from obvious to me. Not related to buds that I can see.

I agree with Sinclair on fasciation. It's always useful to draw from authoritative (and i don't use that word lightly) sources. Narrowing definitions makes paradigms too rigid, boxing in thought.


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## treevet (Jun 20, 2010)

Mutations excluded then wood formed by twisting could be referred to "torsion" wood. Wood formed by combinations of these may need another term such as that formed in "Bottle butt" (what I was leading into prior to attempts at being censored by the MC's) and even large buttresses. A huge buttress certainly is growing in reaction to stresses as it does not grow even nearly a consistent fashion with the rest of the trunk in mass.


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## treevet (Jun 20, 2010)




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## outofmytree (Jun 20, 2010)

Fascinating pictures.

I have to take a drive up into the foothills and post a picture of a great "distorted" _Corymbia maculata_. I used to have a few of my own photo's we took years ago but they are the victims of data loss "Twisted" or "braided" trunks are fairly common in _C.maculata _here in Perth (about 3500km's from Derwoodii) but seem to be far less common in _C.citriodora_.

My concern with Bermies suggestion of torque reaction alone as a cause is that the effect is visible in some trees of a given species but not others located nearby and of similar age. Perhaps it is a combination of external forces AND a genetic predisposition toward this growth pattern. I would be interested to note if the growth direction was aligned the with coriolis effect of a given hemisphere or whether there were both clockwise and anti clockwise "braiding" in the same location. I would also be very keen to see the results of any testing that could be done to indicate fluid flow from root to canopy and whether it follows the "braiding" precisely. Exactly how this could be tested would be a challenge!


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## outofmytree (Jun 20, 2010)

Just took the time to google and read the Cassian Humphreys article TS & Derwoodii were referring to. Well worth the effort. I found it googling this phrase "Self Optimisation of Gum trees – Braided Reaction Wood Development". It is hosted at a website that this forum does not link to.


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## Ed Roland (Jun 20, 2010)

The claim: The coriolis effect influences which direction water spirals down drains in different hemispheres.

The truth: False

Whichever direction the flow comes from, it continues in that same direction no matter what hemisphere you are in. But, with that said, what about the numbers? Seems like i read somewhere that well over 90% of trunk spirals are counterclockwise in the Northern hemisphere. Hurricanes in the northern hemisphere are counterclockwise and, apparently, the majority of tornadoes too. 

If a tree is predisposed through genetics and prevailing forces exacerbate then perhaps the coriolis effect of the earth's rotation has a dog in this hunt?

Very interesting topic.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 21, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Just took the time to google and read the Cassian Humphreys article TS & Derwoodii were referring to. Well worth the effort. I found it googling this phrase "Self Optimisation of Gum trees – Braided Reaction Wood Development". It is hosted at a website that this forum does not link to.



Found the document and skimmed through for some hightlights.

At the end, he wrote:



> demonstrating
> to arborists that we need to be open to other possibilities in relation to trees as self
> optimisers



One thing worth introducing alongside, is that arborists may also want to keep in mind the possibility of trees being self-terminating, too. Or to put it another way, genetically designed to live for approximate intervals or die within approximate time intervals. Take for example species prone to weak unions, susceptible to insects, or short-lived.

The entire natural collection of tree species seems to be a combination of optimization blended with limitations for termination. If annuals have the limitation of a year, certainly trees can have limitations of decades or an approximate number of centuries.

Take Grand fir - isn't 3 centuries about the limit for any of those?

The .pdf had a fairly good assortment of pics. One caught my attention where he commented about a strip, and it looks like a typical crack on bark from normal grow. Maybe he was not pointing to just the small crack.


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## Boa07 (Jun 21, 2010)

I think it is good that we can review our preconceptions about tree biology, and plant physiology in general, it is one of Cassian's admirable traits that he is willing to state what he is thinking about a topic whislt he is still in the process of working through all the possible angles and exp[lainations for his observations.

I helped proof read the article and along with some better known Arboreal names have been pondering aspects of the phenomenom Cass calls Braided Reaction Wood...so I would like to add some of my partially formed ideas....

No microscopic analysis has been done of the wood cells through these dramatic sections of branch, limb and stem...so it really is not possible to say with certainty that the cells have or do not have the anotomical changes associated with 'reaction wood' in its generally understood definition.

We don't know if these braided forms are stronger weaker or exhibit no significant difference in strength under loading (in all its manifestations!).

Both these unknowns are things Cass hoped to be able to gain funding to explore.

Personally I do not believe that these braided forms nor many of the other pics of dramatic body language posted by others in this thread are fasciation, at least not in my understanding of the term.

I think Dave (TV) might well be right that we will need some other term to describe what we are observing...or perhaps the cells will give up their secrets under the microscope.

There is a term which I have seen used to describe the growth responses in plants to temperature, wind and even touch (with other plants and/or animals) and that is of course Thigmomorphogenesis (I have to admit to liking its sound more than the convincing weight of the arguement) some of the contorted twisted growth patterns we observe certainly seem (to me at least) to defy explainations of tortional wind loading...especially when those trees are the same age and stature as their very "straight" close neighbours.

I have observed trees with very unusual growth responses that seem to be explained by the protracted contest over territory within wood tissues between wood decay fungi and host, bacterial infection and host, even parasitic plant and host.

It is interesting that this braiding has been observed in quite a number of different genus, in both the northern and southern hemispheres. Certainly for me the most dramatic and obvious examples are in our spotted gums _Corymbia citriodora/henryii/maculata_ but I have also personally seen remarkable 'muscle like' forms in _Caesalpiniaceae, Sapindaceae_, and (of course) _Platanaceae_.

Since some of you might not be able to find the article here are a couple of scaled down pics of the braided phenomenon.

View attachment 141478


View attachment 141479


View attachment 141480


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## outofmytree (Jun 21, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> The claim: The coriolis effect influences which direction water spirals down drains in different hemispheres.
> 
> The truth: False
> 
> ...




Lol. I wondered if someone would discuss the water-down-the-drain phenomenom! 

My question was in fact more along the lines of the effect the earths rotation has upon wind direction in hurricanes/cyclones in the respective hemispheres. In fairness it was a bourbon generated idea but it would be pretty cool if in fact there was a corellation between the apparent direction of "twist" and the hemisphere in which the sample was located.

"Thigmomorphogenesis". Fair dinkum Sean I reckon you lie awake at night thinking up words that most normal people would need to dislocate their jaw to pronounce. 

Just an aside but I noticed that Cassian often refers to _C.citriodora_ as a Spotted Gum and nowhere in the article does he mention _C.maculata_. I know these 2 are genetically close so is he referring to a hybrid? For my money the 3 pictures you showed were run-of-the-mill _C.maculata_.

Mario I don't believe genetic mutations are designed. Taking aside the contentious issue of creation vs evolution, most short lived plants are prolific seed producers with rapid growth. For a mutation to be succesful (and by default this braiding appears to be succesful at very least amongst _C.maculata_) it would need to give the plant a reproductive advantage. That is, if this type of growth reduces the longevity of the plant then it would quickly die out unless it produced a greater number of viable seeds than average. 

Of course we meddling humans really stuff things up by artificially spreading samples across the globe so this form may actually be a dud but we keep planting its seeds so it keeps popping up!


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## Boa07 (Jun 21, 2010)

> "Thigmomorphogenesis". Fair dinkum Sean I reckon you lie awake at night thinking up words that most normal people would need to dislocate their jaw to pronounce



Ha ha I wish I could claim to have thought up that bizarre term...



> Just an aside but I noticed that Cassian often refers to C.citriodora as a Spotted Gum and nowhere in the article does he mention C.maculata. I know these 2 are genetically close so is he referring to a hybrid



Common names are a real pain, spotted gum is just one that C.citriodora has, lemon scented gum being another.

The plot becomes even less clear once we look at what the botanist have been doing with the series _Maculatae_ (spotted gums) current think ing as far as I understand it is that the taxa are now seperated into; 
_Corymbia citriodora subsp.citriodora_ (Lemon scented gum found in northeastern Queensland )
_Corymbia citriodora subsp variegata _(Spotted gum found in southeastern Queensland ...but goes as far south as Grafton) This was formally named _Corymbia maculata_.
_Corymbia Henryi _(Large leaved spotted gum found in southeastern Queensland and northern NSW) 

BTW I am not suggesting that any of this taxonomic gymnastics makes any sense to me at all:deadhorse:

As for Mario's interesting point about self optomising as compared to self terminating...well I often find concepts of programmed death of the organism hard to fit with the evidence of regenerative genetics in most plants, there was a very good article written some years back by Peter Del Tredici "Aging and Rejuvenation in Trees" well worth a read, attached below.

View attachment 141484


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 21, 2010)

The most obvious regenerative aspect that is common to trees and small plants is seed production.

Even annuals produce seeds.

But that would not really be a "self" optimization.

Alder's don't seem to fit the mold very well for long term self-optimization. They will reiterate if broken, for example, but are pretty much "sacrificial" trees.

If they had a will, we could almost stretch the vocabulary to say self-sacrificial. But they remain genetic. Anyhow, Alders are well adapted to repair areas of nature. More like nature's self-optimization with the tree helping to fix nitrogen or nutrition in areas. Alders don't really last long at all. Very short lived. And for where they grow, the short life span is very practical environmentally.


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## treeseer (Jun 21, 2010)

Boa07 said:


> As for Mario's interesting point about self optomising as compared to self terminating...well I often find concepts of programmed death of the organism hard to fit with the evidence of regenerative genetics in most plants, there was a very good article written some years back by Peter Del Tredici "Aging and Rejuvenation in Trees" well worth a read, attached below.
> 
> View attachment 141484



Mario's example of alders speaks of a short-lived plant by genetics, but like Sean I would point to rejuvenation as an almost universal tendency, with the right conditions and care.

Here's a coincidence, aka do you believe in magic--That piece that you attached is the same that is quoted at the end of the pruning article (my present version is 1.9 mb too big for here) in Arborist News this month, so you should be seeing it any week now.  . The man has great plant skills and remarkable insight into their behavior. His recent book on urban ecology is outstanding.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jul 6, 2010)

Just took this pic today.

No real stress on the root wood. Shows that trees can simply grow tissue spiraled this way.

A redwood tree root.

About 16" diameter at the widest point. This is about 15' worth of surface root in the image. The trunk was about 20 feet to the right of the image.


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## derwoodii (Jul 8, 2010)

I still believe in my theory of a "tree damaged at juvenile but survives to then grows into it twisted self supporting form". A few pix and ideas have said nay its by other means.
Here's another I found last week. 
Perhaps a combination of factors gives a combination of results. That root one defies my theory?? how a root needs to twist to support its self is a mystery. Begins to be a nature vs nurture debate, to resolve we need a boffin with a microscope. ISA Science Journal listen up any PHds lookin for that interesting paper idea.


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## derwoodii (Aug 10, 2010)

Got another one this time a paper bark Melaleuca linariifolia not seen these do this before. Great twist in the truck around a wound or removed limb 









Arising from below ground I suggest damaged with a twist when a juvenile and the response is carried on into maturity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melaleuca_linariifolia


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 10, 2010)

S Mc said:


> Perhaps "adaptive growth" would be a more comfortable term for some in this discussion.
> 
> Sylvia



Or as Mattheck words it "self optimization" the tree adds mass to parts that are weaker and need reinforcement.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 10, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> I still believe in my theory of a "tree damaged at juvenile but survives to then grows into it twisted self supporting form".



I'm more for multi-stem as juvenile.


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## derwoodii (Aug 18, 2010)

Have look at this one. See the roots winding up into the trunk. Its like three trees wound into one.













What freaky tree eh be a shame but I luv to sox it for a structure autopsy 

http://www.metrotrees.com.au/treehandbook/page-listings/allocasuarina-verticillata.html


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## treesquirrel (Aug 18, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Have look at this one. See the roots winding up into the trunk. Its like three trees wound into one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats some cool looking #### right there.


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## derwoodii (Aug 27, 2010)

OK one more. Now I,m startin to worry I have a local anomaly of wronguns or weirdo's. Hope others will post a few of their twistys to balance the books.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 28, 2010)

The look similar age, maybe you had someone who liked twisting trunks together 30 years ago?


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## derwoodii (Aug 28, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> The look similar age, maybe you had someone who liked twisting trunks together 30 years ago?



You know ya could be right. The Melaleucas are all kinda the same age although 5 - 10 clicks apart they may have come from same stock plantings of hmm a guess mid eighties. Perhaps here a DNA or physiological disposition could be cause.


Oh wow! I just spelled physiological correct 1st time.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 28, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> You know ya could be right. The Melaleucas are all kinda the same age although 5 - 10 clicks apart they may have come from same stock plantings of hmm a guess mid eighties. Perhaps here a DNA or physiological disposition could be cause.
> 
> 
> Oh wow! I just spelled physiological correct 1st time.



Blind squirrel finds nut


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## Corymbia (Oct 23, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> "Thigmomorphogenesis". Fair dinkum Sean I reckon you lie awake at night thinking up words that most normal people would need to dislocate their jaw to pronounce.



Well at least we can be certain that he does not suffer from hippomonstrosesquippedaliophobia. According to an article I read in an arborist magazine a while back, we really should not use big words like thigmomorphogenesis. Shame on you Sean!


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## treeseer (Oct 23, 2010)

Corymbia said:


> According to an article I read in an arborist magazine a while back, we really should not use big words like thigmomorphogenesis. Shame on you Sean!


Yes, he should have said "shape changed due to mechanoperception". 

yes those melaleuca twists look anthropogenically altered to me. there is a guy who does what he calls "arborsculpture", and he;s doing a weeklong class for $500, right after expo. tempting, but there is such a thing as too much edjerkation.


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## derwoodii (Oct 23, 2010)

Next few weeks one of the melaleucas is coming out, tree vs sewer/storm water. I'll do a dissection take pictures n post. Lets see what going on in side.


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## Boa07 (Oct 24, 2010)

Corymbia said:


> Well at least we can be certain that he does not suffer from hippomonstrosesquippedaliophobia. According to an article I read in an arborist magazine a while back, we really should not use big words like thigmomorphogenesis. Shame on you Sean!



Ha ha yes I read the same artcle....hoever I disagree that the term is incorrectly applied...even more I really like the term since for me it neatly encapsulates a major limitation on Arboriculture....we are really struggling to be able to provide specific detail on what is 'driving' much of what appears to us to be unusual growth forms.

So here is this term 'thigmomorphogenesis' which sounds wonderful and is intimidating to the uninitiated yet what it is really saying is....plants will respond to external stimuli....



> ...ability of sessile organisms to modify their morphology in response to a variety of mechanical stimulations, from direct contact with the stem by insects or other plants to flexure caused by wind, water, or snow. _J. Murren and Massimo Pigliucci In American Journal of Botany. 2005;92:810-818
> © 2005_




Hardly breaking news....if you just wrote plants respond to external forces, hence the amazing and enormous variation in form between two trees of the same species, same age class, adjacent to each other so similar conditions...then hopefully the reader would think this is a most inadequate explanation of what can be observed!

Having said that in situations where other plausable explanations don't apply (like a person creating the form, or a genetic abnormality) it is as good an explanation as any other.

But I do agree with the criticism my use of the term was meant to be tongue in cheek  ...I like the way it sounds when you pronounce it though...


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## treeseer (Oct 25, 2010)

Not sure which article you guys are referring to...I usually advocate for shorter words, but sometimes big words say it better. 

Thigmomorphogenesis is accomplished primarily through piezoelectric stimuli.


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## treevet (Oct 25, 2010)

I like the word and like the avoidance of expanding the definition of Dr. Shigo's term "Reaction Wood" too. It could be converted to an acronym I suppose, but I am not clever enough to do it.


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## derwoodii (Nov 9, 2010)

Before 






After. Much to think n say but l'll let the pictures talk 1st 
Such mess of things going here kinda hard to summarize. 






Cross section where the side limb emerged its kinda a layer cake of wood n bark.


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## treeseer (Nov 9, 2010)

Hmm pics seem to support the separate-stem theory. I'm counting 6. Are they separate trees, too? Might could know by slicing deeper in the stump.

Someone went to a lot of trouble it seems to produce the twisting effect.

o and i retract my piezoelectric stimuli hypothesis, before anyone bashes it. Not crystals, but calcium drive the process, I am told by a researcher of these phenomena:

In mechanoperception, the electrical pulse is related to the living cells and due to the cell membrane which allows a charge of calcium ions (Ca+) to build up differentially between the apoplast and the symplast, there isn’t a piezoelectric effect. Piezoelectric is associated with highly organized crystalline structure. Now, some will argue that the cell wall, which does have a crystalline nature to it, should generate a piezoelectric charge, but it does not. So, the electrical signal is biological in origin, requires living cells, and is the result of differences in calcium ions across the membrane. The calcium ion content is altered by calmodulin, which is a protein produced in response to mechanical stimulation. But this is long after the pulse has been generated and is like the plant cell responding to reset the internal calcium content of the cytoplasm. Janet Braam at Rice first isolated these genes as being expressed after mechanical stimulation and calls them ‘touch genes’. The difference in calcium concentration upon mechanical stimulus appears to be related to the function of calcium ion channels in the cell membrane which upon mechanopreception become more porous to calcium and allow its rapid movement across the membrane creating the charge.


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## treevet (Nov 9, 2010)

Interesting.....you (Guy) are saying that was contrived. Maybe the original stem died and someone took stump sprouts and created this. 

Cutting deeper into the stump....that appears to be the bottom cut as there is no buttress flare. 

Maybe something other than this transverse dissection would show something.


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## ozzy42 (Nov 9, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Before
> 
> 
> 
> ...





TreeCo said:


> That is not reaction wood like has been suggested and I would bet it is not 'the work of someone'. Maybe not in this case but I still believe we are seeing genetic malfunctions (mutations).



Melaleuca's ARE a genetic malfunction period.
Hate those nasty things. They are abundant in south Florida.
According to history ,they were brought intentionally to Fl. to ''dry up the everglades''


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## ThePruner (Nov 9, 2010)

Yeah as has been said, I don't think all of these are reaction wood. Maples are naturally twisty among different specimen. It's not really a reaction to anything I don't think. Reaction wood is something like a denser xylem layer on one side of the trunk due to wind erosion hitting the tree throughout its life on the same side. It's basically a tree's attempt to remain strong against some physical force.


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## derwoodii (Nov 10, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> That is not reaction wood like has been suggested and I would bet it is not 'the work of someone'. Maybe not in this case but I still believe we are seeing genetic malfunctions (mutations).



Yup I reckon all here are right this is somthin else not reaction wood by definition. Oddly I have few in my area so a genetic malfunction the likely suspect so call it twistytwirlywoodii .

Ah but today I found this. Not great pic,s as the morning lite was to bright and no I will not be soxin this to cross section for your pleasure.













I do have another good twisty in Allocasuarina thats going to go bye soon so I get more pics.


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## The Count (Nov 30, 2010)

unfortunately, I am not able to give you an reliable scientific answer on this one.
however, some trees have been selected for some features. selection, trait based, differ than natural selection by the fact that the selected gene, that is of most interest, often express itself in the detriment of the resistance genes. this way, a plant "forgets" the need for survival and manifests other traits that appeal to us, mainly because of their beauty or weirdness. mutations, occur very often but are usually corrected by the cell mechanism. those uncorrected are lethal most of the times. 
what causes the fiber to grow that way could be either a mutation, a deficiency in the geo/ photo tropism area. also might be an adaptation to the environment. don`t know but this might help a little:

*Kubler found that spiral growth conferred two main survival advantages for trees on harsh sites. First, spiral growth allowed water from each individual root to reach around to nearly every branch on the tree. And second, branches with spiral growth bent more easily, which allowed them to be more effective at dumping heavy snowfalls, and tended to prevent breakage in high winds. Both of these traits would be important for trees growing in harsh mountaintop conditions.

No cause for the direction of spiralling was given, but Kubler did note that almost all conifers start life with a left spiral, that is, the grain spirals upwards and to the left as you look at the tree. Then, after they become 10-15 years of age, almost all conifers switch to a right spiral for the remainder of their lives. As yet, this trait remains unexplained. And some trees switch back and forth throughout their lives.

As for survival advantage, Kubler found that spiral grain was definitely adaptive for dry, rocky sites. This has proved true in my experience; the rockier the site, the more twisted the trees are likely to be. And very seldom have I ever seen a tree with a noticeable spiral grain growing in good bottom land. In theory, the branches on a perfectly straight grained tree are fed only by the roots that are directly below them. Water from the root system follows the grain of the stem wood up the tree with minimal lateral movement. So, in a straight grained tree, if all the roots on the south side of the tree were cut, or did not receive moisture, the branches on that side of the tree would eventually die.

On a tree with spiral grain however, each root feeds nearly the whole tree, so if all the roots on one side of the tree die the foliage should survive unharmed. The reason for this is because the xylem, the stem wood that carries moisture from the roots to the crown, will spiral less far around the stem as the tree grows and stem diameter increases. Each new year of growth will be slightly offset from previous years growth, with the end result that the flow from one root will be distributed nearly completely around the tree bole, rather than just in a narrow band spiralling around the stem. This has been proven by injecting conifers with dye at the base. As conditions get harsher, the grain will tend to spiral at a more extreme angle around the stem.

And the system works in reverse too. Tree nutrients descend from the foliage in a spiral path to feed the whole root system, rather than just a single root. This return system is not quite as efficient as the root-to-foliage system is, since nutrients are transported only in a very thin layer of living cells called the phloem. Since the phloem is never more than one or two years growth thick, it lacks the depth to distribute its flow as widely as the xylem does. However, this is not a serious problem since tree roots can live for months or longer without food, while the foliage can generally only live a few days without water.

Old trees with spiral grain frequently have a beautiful corkscrew pattern of dead wood running up the stem. In extreme cases the majority of the stem is dead weathered wood, and only a thin strip of bark spiralling around the trunk is keeping the tree alive. I am not sure what causes this, but I would tend to believe that it probably originates from some stress in the foliage, with the resultant death of a narrow band of phloem cells down the stem, rather than from some stress in the roots.

Kubler also found that spiral grain actually made trees structurally weaker, but at the same time allowed them to bend more under wind and snow, and thus avoid breakage. So while a tree with a pronounced spiral grain will not make nearly as good a grade of lumber as its straight grained counterpart, it will have a definite survival advantage when it comes to shedding heavy loads of snow, or surviving a mountain windstorm.

Kubler found that genetics, age, and exposure to wind and dry conditions were the main determinants of spiral grain. Some trees seem genetically predetermined to show spiral grain no matter where they grow. In most however, spiral grain is a sign of harsh conditions; of fierce winds, unpredictable precipitation and great age.

So now, when you see that twisted old pine or juniper in a pot, you will know that this tree is a long term survivor of all nature has to offer. I have found that since spiral grain generally indicates decades or even centuries of poor growing conditions and very slow growth, it is one of the most accurate indicators of very old age in a tree, at least in the species I am familiar with. As such, it lends all the charm and charisma of bona fide antiquity to the trees it graces. *


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 30, 2010)

good stuff, answered questions you have! 
I have a Silver Maple in the empty lot next to my house, gonna post a pic later of it, when its light out! it was a volunteer, not planted, grew as a clump, on one side, three of the branches have begun to twist around themselves, incorporating all three together, it does not have competition for sun, so I don't think it is a photo-tropic deal. low wind, as it is protected by my forest. If I where too describe it, I would say it looks like 3 bread twistys weaving around them selves? I counted 13 different twist, all going to the right. What would cause this? Ill get a pic up later


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## The Count (Dec 23, 2010)

I agree; one must study the case in order to be right.
Two apparently symillar phenotypes can occur due to different factors.

If I were to jump to a guess, think it is genetic. just the way shar pei skin desease is so appreciated in dog lovers world, we embrace those trees as nature`s wonder and beauty

I just want to point out that over the ages, peoples have came up with lots of theories for why things are the way they are.

I am an geneticist. but I am not like medieval doctors, good at anything; I study genetic modiffied organisms, corn especially and how the gene flow affects neighboring crops.
*I know verry little of trees.*
and what it takes to know? remember A.C.Kinsey and his gall wasp ? he collected over a million wasps to study.
there was a great lady, Barbara McClintock that postulated the theory of jumping genes. She was called "the mad scientist" until they all came to know she was right; she was awarded with the Nobel Prize and in protest she didn`t appeared at the ceremony;

what I am saying is one shouldn`t be quick to tell others wrong or right. 
only an idiot has certitudes (are you sure professor? -I am certain of it. ) )
Even nowadays literature sais one thing, it doesn`t mean that one day someone will come and shead a bigger light on the matter;


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## derwoodii (Dec 23, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> .
> Ah but today I found this. Not great pic,s as the morning lite was to bright and no I will not be soxin this to cross section for your pleasure.



Opsy just got back to here n find my last pics did not load, ah well they were not too good anyhoo I will find a better time of day for the subject n get em up soon. Will be ah,hem for want of better description reaction/braiding trunk on a Cor mac. Nice work Count n ekka adding some good clear thought to the mix.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 23, 2010)

Ok, so, as a novice trying to pick up what you guys are laying down, based on everything I have read on this. Basically, there is no definite answer on the "why" these trees do this, as everyone is different and all are based on situation's at the sites. In other words, its all conditional. That it is up to the individual to investigate each situation, independent of the others. No different than a tree that has a disease, while the same species next to it, in the same yard, does not. Some trees are genetically pre-dispositioned to this, while others are not but still do?
To sum it up, nature has its way?
Deep stuff, genuinely trying to learn/understand! Had to get out the books to understand some of this! But they were not much help, the books I have anyways!


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## treeseer (Dec 23, 2010)

"Not so long ago Cassian Humphries also printed in the Australian Arbor Age a piece on Braided Reaction-wood of Corymbia maculata, edited by more experts."

Really? How many experts, and how do you know--by your own publications there?

"The concept or idea that wood is "braided" is absurd to begin with (unless topiaried like shown), as braiding involves intertwining two or more parts of rope/hair, fibres etc. In none of the pictures seen in this thread could one believe that entire fibres and sections are being interwoven like rope and plaited hair.

Nor could one expect to see with the naked eye the cellular pattern and even if they did it would not support any hypothesis on external factors or gentical factors unless many species with and without the trait were genetically mapped .... way beyond arboriculture now but how the issue should be approached in this day and age."

His use of the term was qualified, and not as represented above.. 

"To find fact amongst such personalities and ego's can be a task,"

If there are any larger egos than yours, they would be gargantuan. 

"there are ways to think logically in the scientific realm to ensure one doesn't fall into traps of making incorrect assumptions"

Even if it was an assumption, which it was not, you have not proven it incorrect.

" like calling regular growth braided wood or reaction wood."

All wood is reaction wood.


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## treevet (Dec 23, 2010)

treeseer said:


> "Not so long ago Cassian Humphries also printed in the Australian Arbor Age a piece on Braided Reaction-wood of Corymbia maculata, edited by more experts."
> 
> Really? How many experts, and how do you know--by your own publications there?
> 
> ...



:agree2:


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## treevet (Dec 23, 2010)

The Count said:


> and what it takes to know? remember A.C.Kinsey and his gall wasp ? he collected over a million wasps to study.
> 
> what I am saying is one shouldn`t be quick to tell others wrong or right.
> only an idiot has certitudes (are you sure professor? -I am certain of it. ) )
> ;



"Sad to see so many so called experts getting it so wrong"

Only thing worse than opinions based on theory and conjecture based on conjecture based on scientific research is

opinions based on theory and conjecture based on no scientific research.

Alex Shigo "dissected over 15,000 trees (longitudenally) for his research data". That is the man I want to talk to about this subject but sadly he is no longer with us. But were he alive he may even say "I do not know, there is so much that is still unknown". I heard him say that personally many times.


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## The Count (Dec 24, 2010)

If there is someone in here that knows first hand about this, by all means, let him/her step up. we`ll listen. I think this thread is not about how smart we appear but how much we can learn.


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## treeseer (Dec 28, 2010)

Hey JPS I thought it was pronounced par-EN-ke-ma...wuddoo I know...:help:

"However if Dr Shigo were still alive he would have been the first to want to know more of the facts backed by research. He also would have wanted people to pick up the ball where he left off, not accepting that his work was the end of arboriculture but a stable platform to take it to the next level!"
 
Truer words were never spoken. 



The Count said:


> If there is someone in here that knows first hand about this, by all means, let him/her step up. we`ll listen. I think this thread is not about how smart we appear but how much we can learn.



Truer words were never spoken.  I do not know first hand but I know someone who does. google for the complete paper:

A unified hypothesis of mechanoperception in plants1

Frank W. Telewski2

W. J. Beal Botanical Garden, Department of Plant Biology, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan 48824 USA

Received for publication March 31, 2006. Accepted for publication August 16, 2006.

ABSTRACT

The perception of mechanical stimuli in the environment is crucial to the survival of all living organisms. Recent advances have led to the proposal of a plant-specific mechanosensory network within plant cells that is similar to the previously described network in animal systems. This sensory network is the basis for a unifying hypothesis, which may account for the perception of numerous mechanical signals including gravitropic, thigmomorphic, thigmotropic, self-loading, growth strains, turgor pressure, xylem pressure potential, and sound. The current state of our knowledge of a mechanosensory network in plants is reviewed, and two mechanoreceptor models are considered: a plasmodesmata-based cytoskeleton–plasma membrane–cell wall (CPMCW) network vs. stretch-activated ion channels. Post-mechanosensory physiological responses to mechanical stresses are also reviewed, and future research directions in the area of mechanoperception and response are recommended.

Key Words: gravitropism • gravity • mechanoperception • sound • thigmomorphogenesis • thigmotropism • turgor pressure • wind

The ability to sense and respond to physical stimuli is of key importance to all living things. Among the common environmental stimuli detected by living organisms are light, temperature, and a variety of chemical signals. A number of these stimuli appear to be closely related and can be considered as physical–mechanical stimuli, that is differences in a mechanical force or pressure perceived by the living cell. A cell may perceive gravity; strains caused by self-loading and internal growth; mechanical loading by snow, ice, and fruit, wind, rainfall, touch, sound; and the state of hydration within a cell (turgor pressure). All organisms appear to perceive these mechanical signals, regardless of their taxonomic classification or life habit (sessile vs. motile). The significant differences between taxonomic groups, specifically plants and animals, are found in the individual molecular components of the microstructure of the internal cellular sensing network (Jaffe et al., 2002 and in the response of an individual organism to each mechanical stimulus.

Internal mechanical forces
The sensing of gravitropic signals by plants has been studied for 200 years (Knight, 1806 ). Since the first study, the elucidation of the mechanism of gravitropic perception has been researched in a broad array of plants from algae to trees and in a variety of plant organs. To date, two compelling hypotheses exist regarding graviperception in plants: the starch–statolith hypothesis and the hydrostatic model of gravisensing (for reviews, see Sack, 1991 Both hypotheses ultimately rely on the sensing of a mechanical signal at the cytoskeleton–plasma membrane–cell wall interface (CPMCW) interface. In the case of statoliths, falling starch grains or other organelles impact the plasma membrane thus inducing an internal mechanical signal (Sack, 1991).

Similarly, the reorientation of a plant organ within a gravitational field is proposed to induce internal pressure differences at the CPMCW interface, which can be considered an external mechanical signal (Staves et al., 1997). Therefore, a more broadly unifying mechanism may underlie graviperception in plants than that evoked by a hypothesis that relies on how the mechanical signal is initiated; an actual sensory structure within the cell may allow for mechanoperception as the plant is reoriented with respect to gravity. Supporting the concept of a unified hypothesis for mechanical sensing in the gravitropic response is the work of Massa and Gilroy (2003) who reported when a root cap came in contact with a horizontal glass plate (inducing thigmotropic stimulus), the root cells behind the growing tip began to grow horizontally. This allowed the root cap to maintain contact with the plate, while the rest of the root grew over and parallel to the obstacle with a step-like growth form. The authors suggested that the gravisensitive cells of the root cap also sense the touch and signal the columella cells to alter their gravitropic response, so that they act together to redirect root growth to avoid obstacles while continuing a general downward pattern of growth.

In plants, gravitropism can occur in either primary or secondary tissues. In primary growth, the gravitropic curvature results from differential cell elongation on opposite sides of the displaced organ. In the case of secondary growth, the gravitropic response includes the formation of reaction wood; tension wood in porous angiosperms and compression wood in nonporous angiosperms and gymnosperms (Timell, 1986a ). Tension wood forms on the upper side of a displaced stem and is characterized by the formation of gelatinous fibers with lower lignin content, smaller diameter, and fewer vessels and by a realignment of cellulose microfibrils into a vertical orientation within the gelatinous layer, which forms inside a partially developed and lignified S2 layer of secondary cell walls of gelatinous fibers. Compression wood forms in response to gravity on the lower side of displaced stems and is characterized by tracheids with a thickened secondary cell wall with higher lignin content, a round cross section, intracellular spaces at cell corners, and a realignment of cellulose microfibrils in the S2 layer to a 45° to 60° orientation with respect to the axis of the stem.

The formation of reaction wood in stems, branches, and roots is not an exclusive response to gravity in woody plants. The formation of reaction wood has also been observed to develop in branches and stems as a means of reshaping crowns and as a possible phototropic response (Engler, 1924 ). Tension wood has been reported to form in the vertical stems of rapidly growing poplar (Populus) trees (for a review, see Telewski et al., 1996 suggested that the reaction wood may form to keep woody plants in balance with their physical environment (e.g., gravity, wind, and light), subsequently generating internal growth strains that result in the physical reorientation of woody plant organs.

The maturation of xylem cells in the cambial zone involves the alteration of individual cell lengths. In many instances, there is intrusive growth in which the cells elongate within the relatively rigid structure of the stem, inducing internal compressive forces (Boyd, 1985; Fournier et al., 1991a D In other cases, the cells shrink upon maturation inducing a tensile force within the stem. The generation of these internal growth strains is responsible for the realignment of stems in the gravitropic response, with compression wood developing a compressive growth strain and tension wood forming a tensile growth strain (Wilson, 1981 ). Growth strains also develop in stems aligned vertically with respect to gravity and may function to maintain mechanical balance within woody plants as part of a phototropic response, self-loading, or from differential loading caused by crown asymmetry (Archer, 1987 

Within a vertically aligned stem, there are two potential sources of compressive force loading. The most obvious is due to self-loading along the vertical axis of the stem as a result of the accelerating force of gravity. A second compressive force has been suggested to be induced by the constrictive nature of bark tissues (referred to as bark pressure), resulting in a radial compressive force that affects xylogenesis in the cambial zone (DeVries, 1875 ). In earlier studies, the radial compressive force of a constricting outer bark was hypothesized to increase during the growing season from the radial growth of the cambium and to be responsible for the formation of smaller, denser latewood cells and the ultimate formation of annual growth rings (for a review, see Larson, 1960 ). In subsequent studies, this hypothesis was refuted, and annual growth rings were found to form in response to external environmental stimuli including day length and changes in plant growth regulator content (for review, see Little and Savidge, 1987 ). Although the bark pressure hypothesis appears to bear little on the formation of annual growth rings, the application of a compressive force to cambial explants (tissue culture) appears to function in maintaining the structure and organization of the vascular cambium in vitro, ensuring the continued production of apparently normal xylem (Brown and Sax, 1962 ).


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 28, 2010)

http://www.encyclo.co.uk/search.php

This is a good meta-encyclopedia, I've used for a number of technical terms. It helped with a few I was shaky with in the above paper.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 27, 2011)

treeseer said:


> All that, and I for one am keen to learn about the relationship between soil acidity forcing aluminum to be taken up in place of calcium, disrupted calmodulin function, and weaker cell walls.
> 
> :confused2:


 
I is more correct to say pH effecting the uptake of metals. I am trying to wrap my tinny brain around it right now with a book on Fe uptake and chlorosis. The talk about how Zn, Cu and Cd can be replaced in the chelate as pH rises. There are a number of papers on phytoremediation that talk about how to.

With Iron there are two strategies for uptake, gramaceous grasses can actually exude a reductase that "fixes" Fe(III) componds to more available Fe(II)

ScienceDirect - Trends in Plant Science : Iron solutions: acquisition strategies and signaling pathways in plants 

this is one.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...27273ee873b6e3178551e77bbfc11730&searchtype=a
this one I just found looking for Ca uptake Al

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4b596dc20cd974c82ca66491c705e31f&searchtype=a

disrupted calmodulin function


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## treemandan (Mar 27, 2011)

TreeCo said:


> I don't believe the photos being posted are of reaction wood in the sense of the term used in arboriculture..... but instead may be a phenomenon called fasciation......and in the cases posted it is likely a gentic mutation that is inheritable.
> 
> Sycamore (Acer pseudoplatanus) Fasciation, teratology, Cecidology
> 
> ...


 
I agree its not 'reaction wood' due the weighting of the tree but reaction due to some other kind of force like disease or mutuation.


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## Toddppm (Apr 3, 2011)

Is this reaction wood, a mutation or just a form I haven't seen before? Looks like bulging muscles but rippled too. These are Ailanthus trees roadside out in the country we drove by yesterday, had to turn around and get a few shots. On both sides of the road. Not great cause I was on a blind hill trying not to get hit.


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## Corymbia (Apr 3, 2011)

*Defining our terms*



treemandan said:


> I agree its not 'reaction wood' due the weighting of the tree but reaction due to some other kind of force like disease or mutuation.


 
I think we need to define our terms. 

Reaction wood is wood that contains cells with altered chemical makeup in the cell wall (S1-S3) that arises from some external stimuli - wind gravity etc. This alteration occurs after the cell is formed after mitosis as the cell heads towards maturity.

Fasciation occurs at mitosis (so it is about too much or too little cell division) and then may still result in the development of reaction wood to compensate for the often poor geometry.

The spiraling grain formation that our learned friend talked about relates to the orientation of the cells (a function of mitosis) and not the make up of the cell walls. This again is not reaction wood


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## boo (Apr 3, 2011)

agreed on "all wood is reaction wood"
just as standing back and looking at the big picture... using our ability to reason.(most valuable tool)
cells slightly changed by soil, water, sun, species, even wind(as beating a sapling with a newspaper) it's all reaction wood... just like he kinda pissed you off because he didn't agree with you, and by your dna, lunch, brain chemicals, neurons, etc.... you reacted.
I haven't done the math... but even plastic changes to temperature and chemicals.
You don't have to be Dr. Alex Shigo to see the big picture.
I think he was more up for finding out "why".


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## Corymbia (Apr 6, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> But this growth phenomena bridges semantic boundaries. If a shift of the fusiform initials (cambium) results in subsequent growth being laid down in a spiral fashion then we have new wood being produced in a new pattern *because* of the causal stimuli and not *reacting* to that stimuli. A simple cause and effect intuitively gives rise to the phrase reaction wood. Technically though, IMO, I see no reason why this wood should contain the altered chemical makeup that allows it to be defined as reaction wood. Why would it?
> 
> I personally like "spiral grain" as a defining phrase for this particular type of growth.
> 
> ...


 
I am not sure that it has anything to do with the grain. In fact reaction wood has nothing to do with the grain and everything to do with the secondary cell walls of those cells that are in the reaction wood zone. You can have, and in fact often do have, reaction wood forming in a completely different orientation to the grain. 

The fact that cells alter the composition of the cell walls in response to forces allows them to respond appropriately to physical stimuli. (Thin about the axiom of uniform stress). When a tree has gravity pushing don on a limb how does the tree deal with that. In short a gymnosperm uses compression wood to push against gravity whilst an angiosperm uses tension wood to pull against gravity,

Perhaps the best example of compression wood is when the top breaks or is removed out of a young gymnosperm. You will often see compression wood "push" a horizontal branch to vertical and have it take over as the new stem. This does not happen to any great extent with angiosperms.


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## treeseer (Apr 7, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> it's the pseudotransverse divisions that give us the spiral tree.



Is that like a Panzer Division?

opcorn:


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## Ed Roland (Apr 7, 2011)

Can you tell I have spent the last 5 weeks immersed in the Wulkowiczian cambium philosophy? :confused2: He sits at the table and chews his data with his mouth open. I sit across from him and stare at the crumbs that fall about the table and try to decipher them like a shaman might tea leaves. 
My new friend is a delight to spend time with. We do argue as often as not.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> He sits at the table and chews his data with his mouth open. I sit across from him and stare at the crumbs that fall about the table and try to decipher them like a shaman might tea leaves.


 
I thought he was supposed to pee in a gourd for you to drink, but I guess that was just for ergot mold on the wheat.....


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## Ed Roland (Apr 7, 2011)

if ever you get stung by a jellyfish, hope you have a full bladder. 

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeseer (Apr 7, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I thought he was supposed to pee in a gourd for you to drink, but I guess that was just for ergot mold on the wheat.....



:jester: After doing St. Vitus' dance with Bob at many a hoedown, I'm glad to see he has some fresh me--I mean young blo--I mean, an energetic spirit to engage. I took his crumbs to be snot rockets, and returned fire until we both could breathe no more. :taped:

Y'ever git stung by a dead bee?


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## Ed Roland (Apr 7, 2011)

treeseer said:


> :jester: After doing St. Vitus' dance with Bob at many a hoedown, I'm glad to see he has some fresh me--I mean young blo--I mean, an energetic spirit to engage. I took his crumbs to be snot rockets, and returned fire until we both could breathe no more. :taped:
> 
> Y'ever git stung by a dead bee?


 
Martyr is as martyr does. Whatever can be said about "associates" (and some very knowledgeable men wrote about the subject) they do associate. I have a desktop screen full of information about the cambium at the moment when I normally might not. No, Bob and I do not agree on everything but the learning comes from the experience.

We have to speculate before we can demonstrate. 

Besides, Bob spins a great yarn.


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## M.D. Vaden (May 24, 2011)

elmnut said:


> tension wood forms under a limb, compression wood forms on the topside of a limb, reaction wood forms as a result of growing conditions, ie: growing on a slope, prevailing winds,"a reaction to the conditions"



Like this?

This is a cross-section of the horizontal part of a limb that curved out and upward vertically as a small extra leader of a Deodar Cedar.


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## Corymbia (May 24, 2011)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Like this?
> 
> This is a cross-section of the horizontal part of a limb that curved out and upward vertically as a small extra leader of a Deodar Cedar.


 
Its a great example! unfortunately you have probably chipped he rest but several slices through the entire limb, for a foot or two either side of the bend, would really show it well!


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