# Where is my elm ID book when I need It!



## Dogsout (Jun 6, 2012)

I was wondering if anyone can take a stab at a tree ID by just my description. First a little back ground. Two days ago one of my farmer friends called me up and said that he had a tree crew coming tomorrow to cut down a dead elm tree and was wondering if I might be interested in some of the wood? Well after my last tussle with elm I said never again, but after reading board members comments about dead standing elm, I thought what the heck. OK so yesterday I show up with my trailer and the crew has not yet touched the dead elm but were polishing off a live elm in the front yard. Got out of the truck and talked with the farmer who proceeded to encourage me to latch on to some of the elm in the front yard. Green elm, I think not after my last experience. Well my curiosity got the better of me so I stroll up to the fence in the front yard, peak over and there sits roughly a cord of elm on the ground, limbed and in eight foot sections. They had basically done everything except load it on my trailer the way it was sitting so how could I resist? So here is the description. I get the saw out and and proceed to start cutting. This stuff is *cutting like butter*. So the pieces that I am cutting have been sitting on the ground for 3 or 4 hours now and they are flat a$$ *dripping water from the cut ends*. I mean after loading my gloves and shirt were soaked from this stuff! The *cut ends were a dark brown and it weighed a TON*! *No noticable smell *while cutting it up. Split it tonight and though *not as bad as my last batch of elm it still was somewhat stringy*. The tree foreman did not give me anymore information other then it was an elm tree. It did have elm leaves on the few leafs that were still on the logs. Told this story to a guy at work and he right away said piss elm. Is there even such a thing? Did I just finish splitting a cord of crap wood? This is in North Central Iowa remember if you would like to take a guess. Any comments would be appreciated.


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## blades (Jun 7, 2012)

If there is a mucus like layer by the just under the bark, then ya its piss elm. Other wise it could be Chinese Elm. dries out in a year properly stacked and split. mid btu output moderate coaling. No sense in being snobish, its free, it burns, and puts out heat. Better than Boxelder or Mountain Ash.


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## Whitespider (Jun 7, 2012)

Piss elm was a nickname originally given to Wahoo (Winged Elm) because of the strong odor… Wahoo does not grow in Iowa (there are some very rare exceptions in the extreme southeast corner of Iowa). Now-a-days it seems any elm will be called piss elm if it contains a lot of water or emits a smell… most of the time because people have no idea how to identify elm (and depending on the time of year and conditions, any live cut elm can leach water like that). There are three native species of elm in Iowa, American Elm, Slippery Elm (Red Elm) and Rock Elm (Cork Elm). Another elm commonly found in Iowa, widely planted shortly after the Dust Bowl days, is the Siberian Elm.

Any of the above elm will appear to have darkish brownish/reddish wood at the end-cuts when wet… not until it dries to some degree will the color of wood be a clue to specific species. The best way to identify an elm is by the leaves and bark…
Leaves;

American Elm; 3 - 8 inches long (commonly around 6 - 7 inches on mature branches), smooth to slightly rough on top.
Slippery Elm; 4 - 6 inches long, rough textured surfaces (the top side almost like 80-grit sandpaper).
Rock Elm; 2 - 4 inches long, shiny (can appear almost waxy) dark green on top.
Siberian Elm; Smallest leaves of these elms, near always less than 2½ inches long (small leaves are the easiest way to spot a Siberian Elm).

Usually, just looking at the bark won’t help identify an elm, but…
The bark of an American Elm is the fastest way to verify the species; American Elm has the thickest bark of the four, and when cross-sectioned it will have alternating dark/creamy white layers. Slippery Elm has a thick, mucus-like layer under the bark (thicker and more snotty-like than the other elms) and hairy-like buds and twigs. Rock Elm will have weird corky-like ridges on many older branches, see the pictures below of Rock Elm corky growths…









Here’s a link to another thread I started on elm identification a few months back with some pictures of the creamy-white layers found in American Elm Bark... and some pictures of American and Slippery Elm splits.

http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/184122.htm


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## blacklocst (Jun 7, 2012)

I've also heard Red Oak being referred to as Piss Oak. You could probably slap that moniker on any wood that has a lot of moisture in it.


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## Whitespider (Jun 7, 2012)

blades said:


> *If there is a mucus like layer by the just under the bark, then ya its piss elm.*



So... I'm curious *blades*, because Wisconsin and Iowa have the same native elm trees, do you consider what you call "piss" elm (the stuff with the "mucus-like" layer under the bark) to be junk? That mucus-like layer is near always found only on Slippery (Red) Elm... and Slippery Elm is some damn fine firewood, near as good as any Red Oak.


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## 3fordasho (Jun 7, 2012)

Sounds like the siberian elm I cut around here. Dark brown when fresh cut, dripping water. Two good times to split, best is when it's standing dead, no bark and bleached white from the sun. 2nd best is when its green. Anything inbetween is more difficult splitting.
<a href="http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/3fordasho/?action=view&amp;current=DSC03260.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/3fordasho/DSC03260.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/3fordasho/?action=view&amp;current=DSC03259.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/3fordasho/DSC03259.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>




Dogsout said:


> I was wondering if anyone can take a stab at a tree ID by just my description. First a little back ground. Two days ago one of my farmer friends called me up and said that he had a tree crew coming tomorrow to cut down a dead elm tree and was wondering if I might be interested in some of the wood? Well after my last tussle with elm I said never again, but after reading board members comments about dead standing elm, I thought what the heck. OK so yesterday I show up with my trailer and the crew has not yet touched the dead elm but were polishing off a live elm in the front yard. Got out of the truck and talked with the farmer who proceeded to encourage me to latch on to some of the elm in the front yard. Green elm, I think not after my last experience. Well my curiosity got the better of me so I stroll up to the fence in the front yard, peak over and there sits roughly a cord of elm on the ground, limbed and in eight foot sections. They had basically done everything except load it on my trailer the way it was sitting so how could I resist? So here is the description. I get the saw out and and proceed to start cutting. This stuff is *cutting like butter*. So the pieces that I am cutting have been sitting on the ground for 3 or 4 hours now and they are flat a$$ *dripping water from the cut ends*. I mean after loading my gloves and shirt were soaked from this stuff! The *cut ends were a dark brown and it weighed a TON*! *No noticable smell *while cutting it up. Split it tonight and though *not as bad as my last batch of elm it still was somewhat stringy*. The tree foreman did not give me anymore information other then it was an elm tree. It did have elm leaves on the few leafs that were still on the logs. Told this story to a guy at work and he right away said piss elm. Is there even such a thing? Did I just finish splitting a cord of crap wood? This is in North Central Iowa remember if you would like to take a guess. Any comments would be appreciated.


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## blades (Jun 7, 2012)

Red Elm It be then , I never turn down Elm any type. I set my splitter up to slice through the stringy stuff. With the slippery/ red I like to get the bark off so it dries quicker/ always seem to be a lot of bugs there also.


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## Whitespider (Jun 7, 2012)

3fordasho said:


> *Sounds like the siberian elm I cut around here. Dark brown when fresh cut, dripping water.*




That doesn't look like any Siberian Elm I've ever cut.
Looks like classic Slippery (Red) Elm to me, even the bark fits the classic description of Slippery Elm.
"_The bark of Slippery Elm develops flattened ridges with intervening furrows, having a light gray-brown coloration. Ridges are straight on both younger and mature bark, and rarely interlace._"

What makes you believe that's Siberian Elm?

SLIPPERY ELM


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## 3fordasho (Jun 7, 2012)

Well I've questioned that myself... Siberian or Slippery?, I guess the smaller than normal elm leaves with symmetrical base and the non-sandpaper feel to the leaves have made me think it's not Slippery elm. If it is I've hit the jackpot because it's about all I have were I'm cutting and I'm supposed to clear them out... all of them. Oh and your pics of bucked up standing dead look exactly the same as standing dead I've cut at this lot.








Whitespider said:


> That doesn't look like any Siberian Elm I've ever cut.
> Looks like classic Slippery (Red) Elm to me, even the bark fits the classic description of Slippery Elm.
> "_The bark of Slippery Elm develops flattened ridges with intervening furrows, having a light gray-brown coloration. Ridges are straight on both younger and mature bark, and rarely interlace._"
> 
> ...


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## Whitespider (Jun 7, 2012)

Well... small leaves with symmetrical bases, and no sandpaper feel to the leaf would surely indicate Siberian Elm.

Hmmmm...... Just a thought, but...
Siberian Elm and Slippery Elm are well known to hybridize in the wild... maybe you've come across a stand of hybrids?
Just me thinking and trying to reason-out what you have... Could be the standing-dead are what's left of the pure bred Slippery Elm, and the live trees are the surviving hybrid. Depending on the degree of hybridization they could have any combination of characteristics from both species. Supposedly, some of the hybrids make firewood near as good as the pure Slippery Elm (so I've been told, I ain't come across any I know of).


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## Dogsout (Jun 7, 2012)

By the first two pictures and comparing to Spiders elm thread I am reasonably sure it is Slippery Elm. The picture of the leaves did not turn out very good but I included it anyway. And finally this is what I have split of it already with about that much more to go yet.



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## Dogsout (Jun 7, 2012)




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## 3fordasho (Jun 7, 2012)

Was at the woodlot this afternoon and took another look around, Have Slippery, siberian, american and probably combinations of slippery and siberian. I've checked the leaves before for the sandpapery feel and not really found it. Today I found it- perhaps it's more pronouced earlier in the season because last time I checked was late summer and never really id anything as slippery elm.





Whitespider said:


> Well... small leaves with symmetrical bases, and no sandpaper feel to the leaf would surely indicate Siberian Elm.
> 
> Hmmmm...... Just a thought, but...
> Siberian Elm and Slippery Elm are well known to hybridize in the wild... maybe you've come across a stand of hybrids?
> Just me thinking and trying to reason-out what you have... Could be the standing-dead are what's left of the pure bred Slippery Elm, and the live trees are the surviving hybrid. Depending on the degree of hybridization they could have any combination of characteristics from both species. Supposedly, some of the hybrids make firewood near as good as the pure Slippery Elm (so I've been told, I ain't come across any I know of).


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## Dogsout (Jun 9, 2012)

Following the other Slippery/Red Elm thread and with Spiders pictures of the leaves with the quarter I now am pretty sure that I have Siberian Elm in stead of Slippery. It is all split and stacked now. Now to have haveawoody post in the other thread that cut and split green it is about the same as Boxelder makes the work seem kind of pointless. At least it is a learning experience because I will not soon forget the SMALL leaf on the Siberian Elm is something to pass on and wait for one of the better varieties. Spider you are the man when it comes to elm questions thank you for all of your useful information


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## Whitespider (Jun 10, 2012)

*haveawoody* was probably a bit over-zealous with his comparison.
Don’t agonize over it too much; it’ll make better firewood than Box Elder… quite a bit better in fact.


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