# Breaking in a new faller



## bitzer (Dec 19, 2016)

Nearly from scratch.


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## sawhoss (Dec 19, 2016)

Good Luck Bob, Lucky it's sunny and warm with perfect conditions!


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## northmanlogging (Dec 19, 2016)

Patience...

And a little at a time, to much info and folks wont catch all of it.

Granted its a steep learning curve...


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## Skeans (Dec 19, 2016)

When I got broke in I was pounding wedges, bucking and limbing then as I got a feel learning how far to sight in the back cut for the far side.

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## Gologit (Dec 19, 2016)

Good luck. Stay light on your feet.


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## madhatte (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm glad somebody's still doing this!


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## bitzer (Dec 20, 2016)

Well he's not totally from scratch. He's got an "A" fallers cert from California. He worked for the FS last summer around the Stanislaus National forest. For the wood I'm in right now he might as well be starting from scratch. Lots of butt right, top rot. Rainbow shaped White oaks. Super ugly nonsense. The worst I've cut in a while. He has successfully used two coos bay backcuts on some really hard Leaners. I was standing there to start and stop him. I wanted him to cut a few to see where he's at. Tomorrow I will be falling and bucking and he will be pulping out my tops. He has a ways to go on tension and compression wood. I didn't have him out today. Wind was gusting near 40. I cut though. I just didn't want to be responsible for another human being in that wind. Most of the trees are big ugly and only going one way. Just have to watch the widow makers.


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## bitzer (Dec 20, 2016)

sawhoss said:


> Good Luck Bob, Lucky it's sunny and warm with perfect conditions!


Thanks! I'd rather have that brutal cold then what's coming this weekend. I hope we don't lose all the snow. That will suck! The wood is worse then we both suspected coming off this job. I just want to get the hell north now. Driving through Milwaukee sucks ass. It took me two hours to get to the job yesterday because of all the accidents.


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## RandyMac (Dec 21, 2016)

Forestry training might get in the way, current regs took a lot of self determination away.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 21, 2016)

I don't know of many outfits that still hand cut. All too big for a harvester or buncher?


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## madhatte (Dec 21, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I don't know of many outfits that still hand cut.



Most of the outfits that bid on our sales still hand cut. Equipment costs money.



RandyMac said:


> Forestry training might get in the way, current regs took a lot of self determination away.



I resemble that statement, a little.


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## Woody912 (Dec 21, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Nearly from scratch.


I been training me for 40 yrs and still not happy with my progress. On the bright side, still on the green side of the grass


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## northmanlogging (Dec 22, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I don't know of many outfits that still hand cut. All too big for a harvester or buncher?



Its fairly common around here. Too steep for machines, or often the case that the wood is just too big, not many feller bunchers that can handle a 36" trunk efficiently or safely.

Some of the smaller outfits run mechanized that work in the valleys on private ground, but there isn't many of them.


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## Skeans (Dec 22, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Its fairly common around here. Too steep for machines, or often the case that the wood is just too big, not many feller bunchers that can handle a 36" trunk efficiently or safely.
> 
> Some of the smaller outfits run mechanized that work in the valleys on private ground, but there isn't many of them.


I wouldn't say that, lots of 4 foot stuff is cut with bunchers and honestly a good operator makes it look like they were hand cut. There's lots more small companies that do have harvesters or bunchers then you think we have one and we're three guys crew lots of stuff like that out here.



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## northmanlogging (Dec 22, 2016)

48" huh? taking em in 2-3 swipes or is there some massive new machine I'm not aware of.


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## Skeans (Dec 22, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 48" huh? taking em in 2-3 swipes or is there some massive new machine I'm not aware of.


A hot saw can or even a bar saw can, in 3 cuts including the face.

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## Skeans (Dec 22, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 48" huh? taking em in 2-3 swipes or is there some massive new machine I'm not aware of.


Forgot about the grapple saw setups on the steep ground machines 36" no problem one cut.

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## madhatte (Dec 23, 2016)

Thing with the hotsaw guys is they'll try anything, at least once, so there's plenty of YT video of guys taking on oversize with bunchers which is a cool demo of the machine and all, but, over the course of a whole sale that would not be a cost-effective pace after breaking machinery designed for smaller timber.


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## bitzer (Dec 23, 2016)

I've said it before, it's a shame that wood that big is being machine cut. I know it's not all the time but still. There's a fair amount of wood on my jobs that could be machine cut. Not all. The question is why? Why have those payments and over head if you don't need to. Safety is about the only reason I can think of. Around here if you start going big you're going to want a processor. Then you need a double bunk. Then you need a loader truck and pup. You get yourself deep into by payments and fuel bills in a hurry. I'm willing to bet my profit margins are the same as the big operators. My forwarder is paid for. Buy a new saw every year. And I'm not tied to my equipment. I don't have to worry if the pulp mills are buying or who I can dish the logs off to. I can say good enough for today and go home. Ten years from now when my body is tired of running a saw I will probably be in that boat. I'm happy for now.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 23, 2016)

yup, 

add to that that more outfits are going mechanized and bidding on the same ground, meaning to be competitive you have to cut the profit margins close. So one screw up on their part and its game over.

There is a large private "tree farm" near here that isn't associated with any mills, they will be having a few thinning and yarder sales coming up, for what they are going to go for I could never keep up, especially if I had payments, unless I had a crew of 3 or more, and put out 5 or more loads a day.


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## RandyMac (Dec 23, 2016)

I have many fond memories of my early days, tumultuous as they were.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2016)

Much quicker by machine and safer. The insurance savings alone darn near makes the payments.

No matter what you need a skidder or forwarder of some kind and a truck to haul the logs, so just adding a buncher and delimber, or harvester.

I've done about 300 acres so far in going on 3 years without touching a chainsaw. Now keep in mind logging isn't my full time job, we might be out in the woods 5 days a month. The rest of the time I'm doing firewood.


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## Skeans (Dec 23, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Much quicker by machine and safer. The insurance savings alone darn near makes the payments.
> 
> No matter what you need a skidder or forwarder of some kind and a truck to haul the logs, so just adding a buncher and delimber, or harvester.
> 
> I've done about 300 acres so far in going on 3 years without touching a chainsaw. Now keep in mind logging isn't my full time job, we might be out in the woods 5 days a month. The rest of the time I'm doing firewood.


Lots of the stuff here is done without a skidder or cat mainly shovel logging.

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## bitzer (Dec 23, 2016)

I pay about 1200 bucks a year for buisness insurance and work comp. I don't pay in to the work comp pool. There are enough trucks that hire out here that I don't need my own. I go through 50-60 gallons of diesel a week. I'm not tied to the equipment. I have the freedom of no payments. Like right now. I went to out the job, picked up the wood I cut yesterday and boogied out of there to get an early start on the festivities. Lots to work up and deal with five kids and our rigorous Christmas schedule.


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## bitzer (Dec 23, 2016)

RandyMac said:


> I have many fond memories of my early days, tumultuous as they were.


I like the story about you starting the face cut as Red started the back cut.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Lots of the stuff here is done without a skidder or cat mainly shovel logging.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



Shovel loaders are $$$$$$. Like 200k used.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2016)

bitzer said:


> I pay about 1200 bucks a year for buisness insurance and work comp. I don't pay in to the work comp pool. There are enough trucks that hire out here that I don't need my own. I go through 50-60 gallons of diesel a week. I'm not tied to the equipment. I have the freedom of no payments. Like right now. I went to out the job, picked up the wood I cut yesterday and boogied out of there to get an early start on the festivities. Lots to work up and deal with five kids and our rigorous Christmas schedule.



Most our stuff is paid for too, bought with cash or small loans.
Just have a skid steer with payments. Darn thing is the most expensive costing piece of equipment too. was bought new.


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## Skeans (Dec 23, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Shovel loaders are $$$$$$. Like 200k used.


But it only takes one machine for job, maybe out there they are but out here they are a dime a dozen.

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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2016)

I've never seen one in person. Only 5 or 6 commercial outfits in the area, and by area I mean about 1/2 the state. 
Fairbanks area has a few, and SE AK may as well be WA, I've never been.

We are "big" with a buncher, delimber, 2 skidders, 2 dozers, excavator, 2 self loading log trucks.
Had 2 buncher for a while but the Timbco needed about 20k worth of pump work.


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## RandyMac (Dec 23, 2016)

I showed up at my first falling gig with my Grandad's old Terrill CS-7, he had confiscated my new saw, saying it was bad luck starting a new job with a new saw.
I wrestled with that old monster for two weeks before I stole my 050 back.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 23, 2016)

Used vs new equipment...

Loader 40k used 350k or more new

Skidder 10-30k used 80-200k new

Feller buncher 400k new good luck on a used machine

Log truck 20k used 180k without gear

And if ya get a loan you will need insurance on it at 400 a month plus a payment around 3k

Like bitzer my insurance is around 1400 a year my equipment is owned outright self loaders can haul for less then i would oay in insurance for a truck every month let alone tonnage. Skidder burns 7 gals to the load and the essavator about 9 a day


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## Skeans (Dec 23, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Used vs new equipment...
> 
> Loader 40k used 350k or more new
> 
> ...


Log truck with gear 250k new, Skidder a guy just got a quote on a new cat 525 450k, loader 350k to 750k, Buncher depending on size a cat 501 with head try 450k tethering machine a million. All can be had used just have to look around some.

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## 1270d (Dec 23, 2016)

You don't have to pay comp on your guy bits?


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## 1270d (Dec 23, 2016)

I think our comp rate is 43 or 49 cents on a saw man


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## northmanlogging (Dec 23, 2016)

$18.57 an hour per person for logging in general, i.e. rigging rats and timber fallers

$1.04 up to $4.76 if yer butt is in a cab, depending on what kind of operation, i.e. road building, land clearing, log trucking etc.

that is above what you pay the guy per hour.


(made some edits as I recently got an email about l+i rates for 2017...)


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## bitzer (Dec 24, 2016)

1270d said:


> You don't have to pay comp on your guy bits?


Any one I've ever had work for me I've had them get their own policy. I don't know how a guy could have employees otherwise.


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## Skeans (Dec 24, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Any one I've ever had work for me I've had them get their own policy. I don't know how a guy could have employees otherwise.


You write off their wages and their expenses.

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## northmanlogging (Dec 24, 2016)

Skeans said:


> You write off their wages and their expenses.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


How many employees you got?

And how many lods di you average per day or per employee?


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## Skeans (Dec 24, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> How many employees you got?
> 
> And how many lods di you average per day or per employee?


We're three employees including myself, loads three to five a day once in a while 6 or 7 but if we stay around the 4 mark our prices stay better. Haul times range from an hour to around 2.5 to and from the site. Trucks we have been using now take 36 tons or so.

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## bitzer (Dec 24, 2016)

Skeans said:


> You write off their wages and their expenses.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


How do you write off what you're paying into the work comp pool? I always thought you can only write a percentage of that and it's not a big one. I get audited every year by the insurance co to make sure I don't have employees. And if I do have sub contractors I need to write those in and for how much and show proof of insurance for them. You 1099 them for their wages but pretty sure it stops there. It's nearly 60 cents on the dollar into the work comp pool for hand cutting.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 25, 2016)

write offs are a catch 22 in my book.

yes you can write off your expenses and wages are an expense, but they are also a really big expense, so the benefit of saving a few hundred at the end of the year in taxes vs payin someone 40,000 ish, and another 10,000-30,000 to l+I sorta doesn't make up for it.


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## bnmc98 (Dec 25, 2016)

For a small outfit it makes more sense, or it did at least for us to contract out instead of hire an employee. I started out as an employee. and they were able to almost double my wage by having me become self employed.
That was when I was cutting for them by the hr only. Then I got a machine and now work by the ton cutting and skidding. Which is only better on some days. The thing about a small operation it that you can only put out so much wood in a day, so you can really only afford so much of an employee before it breaks you. Out here with short one log trees, and low market value, a gypo can lose their shorts real quick if they pay a guy too much.
On the flip side, with the tax incentives for a person making a low wage (federally) someone who is just falling and has low overhead can make a killing as an independent compared to what they would make hourly as an employee, and the contractor themselves has less expense. Win win.

on a side note, as a faller, I will have to say a buncher really makes more sense than tipping by hand. Here's why that I've noticed. your time from ground to landing is greatly reduced because it can bunch into bundles. On smaller trees that can mean hooking 3-5 times as many logs in one drag. its 2-3 times faster at cutting than by hand. Also, they can lay the tree the way they want for easier extraction. I still cut, but only steeps and large stuff, the rest of the time I pull cable and put the pedal to the metal. Thats what makes me really appreciate the buncher. Hooking hand felled singles sucks, unless they are big.

The catch 22 is that yes its faster, but we are all starving cause there aint no money in logging here so we all run wore out pieces of junk that we work on all the time and pour money into like they pour oil out of. So is it really that much more efficient?  dunno.
some days its better to just grab a saw and git er done.


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## Skeans (Dec 25, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> write offs are a catch 22 in my book.
> 
> yes you can write off your expenses and wages are an expense, but they are also a really big expense, so the benefit of saving a few hundred at the end of the year in taxes vs payin someone 40,000 ish, and another 10,000-30,000 to l+I sorta doesn't make up for it.



Overhead is always a big concern especially when you're talking about a hand cutter the liability kills you especially if you're on company ground. Here where I am the last tower clear cut they did was tethering there's not many cutters left and not many companies have in house cutting crews anymore. Myself or my dad do all the hand cutting because of the insurance unless we bring in a contractor. Now for what we do on company ground the policy is big one of the concerns is fire the other is the chance of loss of life, a few years ago a local company lost a guy from chain shot in a harvester fluke deal but now I have to plug every snow hole with 1/4" plate minimum. 

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## Skeans (Dec 25, 2016)

bnmc98 said:


> For a small outfit it makes more sense, or it did at least for us to contract out instead of hire an employee. I started out as an employee. and they were able to almost double my wage by having me become self employed.
> That was when I was cutting for them by the hr only. Then I got a machine and now work by the ton cutting and skidding. Which is only better on some days. The thing about a small operation it that you can only put out so much wood in a day, so you can really only afford so much of an employee before it breaks you. Out here with short one log trees, and low market value, a gypo can lose their shorts real quick if they pay a guy too much.
> On the flip side, with the tax incentives for a person making a low wage (federally) someone who is just falling and has low overhead can make a killing as an independent compared to what they would make hourly as an employee, and the contractor themselves has less expense. Win win.
> 
> ...


I agree completely there's day the harvester is done you're cold wet cussing throwing wrenches wish you could just go grab a saw and get back to the simple days but those days are few in between anymore with all the rules and regulations they've put on all of us.



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## Jet47 (Dec 25, 2016)

madhatte said:


> Thing with the hotsaw guys is they'll try anything, at least once, so there's plenty of YT video of guys taking on oversize with bunchers which is a cool demo of the machine and all, but, over the course of a whole sale that would not be a cost-effective pace after breaking machinery designed for smaller timber.


Exactly.
Machines getting the oversize timber down is not the difficult part, its limbing them and still having a working machine at the end of the day. Hence our small outfit leaves anything around 24" and bigger for me to cut the old fashioned way.


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## Skeans (Dec 25, 2016)

Jet47 said:


> Exactly.
> Machines getting the oversize timber down is not the difficult part, its limbing them and still having a working machine at the end of the day. Hence our small outfit leaves anything around 24" and bigger for me to cut the old fashioned way.



24" I can do that thinning the clear cut guys have processor heads that'll do 40", others I know don't care and walk the machine with head from top to butt.

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## northmanlogging (Dec 25, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Overhead is always a big concern especially when you're talking about a hand cutter the liability kills you especially if you're on company ground. Here where I am the last tower clear cut they did was tethering there's not many cutters left and not many companies have in house cutting crews anymore. Myself or my dad do all the hand cutting because of the insurance unless we bring in a contractor. Now for what we do on company ground the policy is big one of the concerns is fire the other is the chance of loss of life, a few years ago a local company lost a guy from chain shot in a harvester fluke deal but now I have to plug every snow hole with 1/4" plate minimum.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



is that telling that the big companies care more about fire then loss of life?


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## Skeans (Dec 25, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> is that telling that the big companies care more about fire then loss of life?


In some ways yes, the safety and personal safety is on us as a contractor as well as fire safety but they can't be sued if an injury occurs on their lands.

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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 25, 2016)

bnmc98 said:


> For a small outfit it makes more sense, or it did at least for us to contract out instead of hire an employee. I started out as an employee. and they were able to almost double my wage by having me become self employed.
> That was when I was cutting for them by the hr only. Then I got a machine and now work by the ton cutting and skidding. Which is only better on some days. The thing about a small operation it that you can only put out so much wood in a day, so you can really only afford so much of an employee before it breaks you. Out here with short one log trees, and low market value, a gypo can lose their shorts real quick if they pay a guy too much.
> On the flip side, with the tax incentives for a person making a low wage (federally) someone who is just falling and has low overhead can make a killing as an independent compared to what they would make hourly as an employee, and the contractor themselves has less expense. Win win.
> 
> ...



Some days I think it's better to not put pants on and stay on the couch, but what fun would that be? Haha!

Running "well loved" equipment kind of sucks, but it's nice to not have payments too. With a skidder, delimber, dozer, shovel loader, buncher, forwarder, harvester, etc all in the mortgage price range new it becomes an issue of being a slave to the machine to make payments... I'm mean 10k+ a month, that's $$$$.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 25, 2016)

Jet47 said:


> Exactly.
> Machines getting the oversize timber down is not the difficult part, its limbing them and still having a working machine at the end of the day. Hence our small outfit leaves anything around 24" and bigger for me to cut the old fashioned way.



Around here 95% of trees larger than around 24" dbh is junk... rotten out, hollow rind. Sometimes the rind is still firewoodable, all depends.

Most of what grows here is harvest ready in the 20-40yr area, after that it's dying.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 28, 2016)

It's like getting chickens to produce. Every once in a while you have got to go down there and shake your axe their way


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 5, 2017)

When I was looking for a job on the west coast in 1981, I saw an add in the paper: Wanted: Feller Buncher.
So I called and said I'd like to learn how to fell and bunch, I have my own chainsaw and pulp hook.
The only answer was the click of the phone.


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## Woody912 (Jan 5, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> I been training me for 40 yrs and still not happy with my progress. On the bright side, still on the green side of the grass


OK, does this one keep me employed?


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## bitzer (Jan 6, 2017)

Was that like a quick cut n run?


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 6, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> OK, does this one keep me employed?View attachment 548631


I don't even know what to say.
If I needed three guys and 10 people sent a pic, and that's what I had to go on as well age and 'experience' considered? then I don't believe you would be further considerd. What do you think Bitzer?[/QUOTE]


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## bitzer (Jan 7, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> I don't even know what to say.
> If I needed three guys and 10 people sent a pic, and that's what I had to go on as well age and 'experience' considered? then a don't believe you would be further considerd. What do you think Bitzer?


[/QUOTE]
You probably already know what I think.


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## Woody912 (Jan 7, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> I don't even know what to say.
> If I needed three guys and 10 people sent a pic, and that's what I had to go on as well age and 'experience' considered? then I don't believe you would be further considerd. What do you think Bitzer?


[/QUOTE]

I was pretty happy with that one, back cut was at ground level so I got all of the merchantable wood there was. Quite a bit of lean with several widowmakers so I did not hang around to chase the hinge. Not sure if it is worth anything anyway, red oak died last summer, probably from wilt. Butt end looks purty after I trimmed it


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## northmanlogging (Jan 7, 2017)

I was pretty happy with that one, back cut was at ground level so I got all of the merchantable wood there was. Quite a bit of lean with several widowmakers so I did not hang around to chase the hinge. Not sure if it is worth anything anyway, red oak died last summer, probably from wilt. Butt end looks purty after I trimmed it[/QUOTE]

You really looking for a critique, cause I'm sure there are several that would be more then happy to oblige.

Also trimming butts is wasting time, time it would take to put in another face... or size up another tree etc, better to have a shallow overhand face, or use a humboldt/underhand face, with a flush back cut.


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## Woody912 (Jan 7, 2017)

I did a Humboldt today on a twin tree that I vertical cut for 3' and then borecut. I retired from my day job when I was 44. Cut firewood for 40 yrs but started dropping trees about 5 yrs ago, 50 or so per year. Cannot cut a level line to save my soul, just trying to get better and not leave an embarrassing stump! Cut one tree today, sawed the dead top and took it to 85 yr old neighbor, cut some grapevine, jump started my tractor ( -5 here this morning) and drug logs to my landing. X mother in law gives me free rein to hunt her ground, and trees are dying so just trying to get her a little revenue ( she don't need the money) Local sawmills will ding you if they have to trim butts.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 8, 2017)

Hence making your falling cuts level...

All mills ding you if they have to trim anything


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 8, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> OK, does this one keep me employed?View attachment 548631


I'd say no, because stump forensics says evidence was tampered with. Lol


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## Woody912 (Jan 8, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I'd say no, because stump forensics says evidence was tampered with. Lol



nope, just as it fell. I need a bar with a spirit level cause I sure don't cut what I think I see. Can't work on the landing either cause my bucking cuts all have a little slope also. Bad vision, bad technique or both I guess


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 7, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> OK, does this one keep me employed?View attachment 548631


Maybe a six out of a ten. Your backcut was a little high and somewhat slanted, but you had no fibre pull and the tree went where you wanted, and there was no loss of life nor limb, so it's all good.


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## Woody912 (Feb 7, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Maybe a six out of a ten. Your backcut was a little high and somewhat slanted, but you had no fibre pull and the tree went where you wanted, and there was no loss of life nor limb, so it's all good.



Next level backcut will be my first. I think I'm level when I start, then I get finished and look at it and say ^#@!)~!!!!!! Fortunately I had a day job for 30 yrs so I can still afford beer while I practice. I think I torque my saw while I'm in the cut.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 7, 2017)

do you switch sides when you switch from face to back cut, I.E. physically get up and walk around so that your saw is always up?

Cause chances are both the face and the back cut are not level, but about the same amount of crooked, and by switching sides you magnify the difference.

One of the reasons I think the SSD or GOL version of cutting trees is kind of dumb. (Game of Logging, or Swedish Stump Dance)


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## Woody912 (Feb 7, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> do you switch sides when you switch from face to back cut, I.E. physically get up and walk around so that your saw is always up?
> 
> Cause chances are both the face and the back cut are not level, but about the same amount of crooked, and by switching sides you magnify the difference.
> 
> One of the reasons I think the SSD or GOL version of cutting trees is kind of dumb. (Game of Logging, or Swedish Stump Dance)



Yes, you just described it perfectly! I've noticed Logger Wade on YouTube almost always borecuts his back cuts to avoid this. I borecut when I have to but I don't love it. Midwest stumps tend to be about 2" above the dirt, would this account for the GOL technique being more prevalent here? West coast stumps usually seem to be higher. Never had the chance to watch a real faller work so I live vicariously via YouTube! lol


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## northmanlogging (Feb 7, 2017)

SSD is more prevalent, I think more because of the timber, being hardwood and therefore more likely to have a lean, or more chair prone, that and a fondness for short bars.

Bore cutting has its uses, but I feel that some folks rely on it a bit too much.

As for the tall stumps out here, it has more to do with root swell, and steep ground than being able to get closer to the ground, a 3/4 wrap saw is nice and all, but a guy could always back bar the cuts to get em real low.

The root swell on Conifer trees will mess up the structure of a 2x4, where the same thing is seen as a bonus on deciduous lumber, structure vs aesthetics. Not to mention the log trucks and loaders don't like messing with the fat ends...

The other factor for tall stumps, at least for ceder and hemlock, is butt rot, end up loosing quite a bit of wood on some trees just because the butt is rotten for the first 10-15 feet, and just about every one will have some rot within 12" of the ground. Not so much on Doug Fir... but still possible.


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## bnmc98 (Feb 7, 2017)

Deep snow will keep stumps high if you don't dig.


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## 1270d (Feb 7, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> SSD is more prevalent, I think more because of the timber, being hardwood and therefore more likely to have a lean, or more chair prone, that and a fondness for short bars.
> 
> Bore cutting has its uses, but I feel that some folks rely on it a bit too much.
> 
> ...



Funny you say that about flair on hardwood logs. I almost always butt the flair off, so low stumps wouldn't be the thing in my area. Regional things again,..


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## bitzer (Feb 8, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Next level backcut will be my first. I think I'm level when I start, then I get finished and look at it and say ^#@!)~!!!!!! Fortunately I had a day job for 30 yrs so I can still afford beer while I practice. I think I torque my saw while I'm in the cut.


Maybe your bar and chain is wore out and won't cut straight.


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## bitzer (Feb 8, 2017)

1270d said:


> Funny you say that about flair on hardwood logs. I almost always butt the flair off, so low stumps wouldn't be the thing in my area. Regional things again,..


I cut just above the flare myself. Usually 8-10".


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## Woody912 (Feb 8, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Maybe your bar and chain is wore out and won't cut straight.



No, it is all me, what I see as level and what is really level are not the same. I've got 3 sets and they all run true, had one get off the other day, brought it home and put the micrometer on every tooth and got them filed down and straightened out. I used to "make" them cut straight, not anymore


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