# Buying a tree service with no experiance.



## Shamgarism (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi everybody, 

I am new to the forum but have been reading for awhile. I have an opportunity to purchase a fairly large tree service company. I am new to the tree business but have been wanting to get involved for awhile and this seems like a really great company. The question I have is about how hard it is to find licensed arborist. The owner who is selling the company is a licensed arborist and has agreed to stay on board for several years while I am gaining experience. However I am concerned that if he were to leave I would need to replace him with a licensed arborist in order to continue to work in the county we are in. How hard is to hire a licensed arborist? Or can I simply hire an arborist as a consultant to stay legal? Any ideas on the cost of a consultant? The company has a crew of 6 with each person having 2-15 years experience, but none are licensed arborists. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.


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## mitch95100 (Mar 15, 2013)

Do YOU have any expirence in the field is my first question.

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## Shamgarism (Mar 15, 2013)

I do not have any experience yet.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

I am open to any suggestions, or ideas on my question but please do not respond just for the sake of being negative. It is a waste of time.


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## offshoretreeze (Mar 16, 2013)

Why not ask the owner? Perhaps someone in the crew could be trained. That's where I'd start. 
Good luck--Aaron


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 16, 2013)

Shamgarism said:


> I am open to any suggestions, or ideas on my question but please do not respond just for the sake of being negative. It is a waste of time.



He is not being negative, he is being real. Its the truth, your gonna lose your butt. If you have no clue how to remove a tree, how are you gonna know how long its gonna take, and how much to charge?

Whys the owner selling the company, if he is gonna work under you for a few years? Sounds funky.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 16, 2013)

why would u own and run a company in a trade u have no experience in? you dont know the trade and your company is going to be based around other guys that do. so what happens when those guys leave? it may be a few months or a few years but there is always a turnaround and who will do the work then? who is going to sell the jobs and answer the customers questions? those guys that have worked there 2-15 years worked for the owner, who says any of them are going to stick around and work for a new owner that knows nothing about the trade? 

if the owner really is going to stick around for a few years like you said than i think itd be in your best interest to learn the trade yourself and work towards becoming a certified arborist because then at the least, even if the other guys leave you can keep business going because you are the one that can do the work. 

if you start a business around your work then you will be the success or the failure. if you start your business around work that you cannot do, then you are setting yourself up to get spanked.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

Joezilla11, thank you, that is exactly why I asked the question. You have to have 3 years experience before you can become a certified arborist. I am trying to plan ahead just in case something happens to the arborists that currently work for the company.


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## Walt41 (Mar 16, 2013)

I am not an tree professional like many of the hard working guys on this site but I have operated several successful businesses and still consult part time.
The tree industry is not like any other business in the skill sets required (notice plurality) an owner must have extensive business, social, counseling, physics, mechanical, logical and biological knowledge just to break even in the business. They must also be willing to sacrifice their body just like a professional athlete as there is not much left at retirement, the business of trees is not a job it is a lifestyle where the owner must be involved in every level or his pockets will be picked clean in no time. My advise to you is to look elsewhere for business opportunities.


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## timberland ts (Mar 16, 2013)

If you can read and are halfway intelligent you can pass the test. However you are nuts to start a business you know nothing about. Unless you are paying some one to do the work and the estimating, buying and fixing equipment. You should have a min. Of five yrs in the field and that really isnt enough. Its your money do what you want.


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## ducaticorse (Mar 16, 2013)

Walt41 said:


> I am not an tree professional like many of the hard working guys on this site but I have operated several successful businesses and still consult part time.
> The tree industry is not like any other business in the skill sets required (notice plurality) an owner must have extensive business, social, counseling, physics, mechanical, logical and biological knowledge just to break even in the business. They must also be willing to sacrifice their body just like a professional athlete as there is not much left at retirement, the business of trees is not a job it is a lifestyle where the owner must be involved in every level or his pockets will be picked clean in no time. My advise to you is to look elsewhere for business opportunities.



Ive tried to explain this point to people et naseum several times. Just because you are good at the actual "tree work" side of the business, does not mean you are going to be any good at running the business. It's funny how many people fail to grasp that concept. You sir, hit the nail right on the head.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok, for the sake of time lets assume, that this is a horrible idea, I am a moron, I have never run a business, I am going to lose all my money and take a successful company down with me, it is dumb to try something I have never done before, and of course that I will "lose my but". Can anyone answer these questions? How hard is to hire a licensed arborist? Or can I simply hire an arborist as a consultant to stay legal? Any ideas on the cost of a consultant?


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## Gologit (Mar 16, 2013)

Shamgarism said:


> Ok, for the sake of time lets assume, that this is a horrible idea, I am a moron, I have never run a business, I am going to lose all my money and take a successful company down with me, it is dumb to try something I have never done before, and of course that I will "lose my but". Can anyone answer these questions? How hard is to hire a licensed arborist? Or can I simply hire an arborist as a consultant to stay legal? Any ideas on the cost of a consultant?



You said that the former owner is going to work with you for a while. Wouldn't he be a good choice to answer some of your questions?
He probably knows most of the consulting arborists in your area.


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## Walt41 (Mar 16, 2013)

Shamgarism said:


> Ok, for the sake of time lets assume, that this is a horrible idea, I am a moron, I have never run a business, I am going to lose all my money and take a successful company down with me, it is dumb to try something I have never done before, and of course that I will "lose my but". Can anyone answer these questions? How hard is to hire a licensed arborist? Or can I simply hire an arborist as a consultant to stay legal? Any ideas on the cost of a consultant?



Only way it ANY business to give someone the checkbook like that is to make them have skin in the game, if you are going to have to trust someone like that to run your business, put them on a partner track or tie their compensation to business performance.


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## Toddppm (Mar 16, 2013)

I've seen a couple companies started and bought by guys with no tree work experience or very very little at all and they've been successful. Because they were natural bull####ters, oh ,I mean salesmen. If you have a good business background and understand what it takes, you can hire people for what you don't know. 
If you have none of this yes you'll probably just be throwing money down a hole.

Is there a specific requirement to be a certified arborist where most of the sales are coming from? The only place you need to be a licensed arborist here is Md. next door. Here in Va. you don't need anything beyond regular business licenses etc.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

Toddppm said:


> I've seen a couple companies started and bought by guys with no tree work experience or very very little at all and they've been successful. Because they were natural bull####ters, oh ,I mean salesmen. If you have a good business background and understand what it takes, you can hire people for what you don't know.
> If you have none of this yes you'll probably just be throwing money down a hole.
> 
> Is there a specific requirement to be a certified arborist where most of the sales are coming from? The only place you need to be a licensed arborist here is Md. next door. Here in Va. you don't need anything beyond regular business licenses etc.



The requirement for certified arborist depends on which city we will be working in. I have the business and sales acumen to be successful, I just want to have a plan in case I lose my 2 certified arborists.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

Walt41 said:


> Only way it ANY business to give someone the checkbook like that is to make them have skin in the game, if you are going to have to trust someone like that to run your business, put them on a partner track or tie their compensation to business performance.





Yes, that is part of the plan. I also will be working and learning in the field(50-60 hours a week) along with studying and attending courses and seminars. However, it will take me 3 years to become ISA certified. If something were to happen to the owner or the other ISA employee over the next 3 years, I would like to have a backup plan.


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## beastmaster (Mar 16, 2013)

Most successful tree services are built on the owner's reputation or salesmanship. It doesn't take much to lose that reputation and clients. If your workers and costumers lose confidence in you, it a slow expensive death spiral. Not saying that'll be you, but if you play the odds, the smart money would be bet against you. Bottom line is you'll be totally dependent on others with no way of knowing if your getting a fair shake or not. The right people are far and few between , but their out there. Make sure you have the best management people you can find. It could be done.
You do this and get in a bind I'm available for consulting and evaluation. You do need a unbiased third party to help evaluate this. Someone who doesn't have an agenda. Good luck


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> Most successful tree services are built on the owner's reputation or salesmanship. It doesn't take much to lose that reputation and clients. If your workers and costumers lose confidence in you, it a slow expensive death spiral. Not saying that'll be you, but if you play the odds, the smart money would be bet against you. Bottom line is you'll be totally dependent on others with no way of knowing if your getting a fair shake or not. The right people are far and few between , but their out there. Make sure you have the best management people you can find. It could be done.
> You do this and get in a bind I'm available for consulting and evaluation. You do need a unbiased third party to help evaluate this. Someone who doesn't have an agenda. Good luck



Thank you, great advice.


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## since16 (Mar 16, 2013)

There are business's u can own and no nothing about at first. Trees are not one of them. Every day ur employees go to work on a smoking hot day all they are gonna think about is that they are making money for a person who doesn't even know how to change chipper blades. And they will begin to plot their exit. How and why would they want to work for u do u think they want to explain daily how they get jobs done to make u money. You can take all the classes u want and not know how to rope a limb off a roof.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

since16 said:


> There are business's u can own and no nothing about at first. Trees are not one of them. Every day ur employees go to work on a smoking hot day all they are gonna think about is that they are making money for a person who doesn't even know how to change chipper blades. And they will begin to plot their exit. How and why would they want to work for u do u think they want to explain daily how they get jobs done to make u money. You can take all the classes u want and not know how to rope a limb off a roof.



Actually you are incorrect. It is very small minded to think that an "outsider" cannot get respect from employees. The first thing they will be thinking about is whether or not their check will bounce, the second thing they will think about is if I can supply them enough work to have a career and take care of their family, and finally can i provide them the equipment they need to do their job safely and effectively. Respect comes from hard work and treating people fair. There are a lot of bosses who know way too much to be successful, their egos and pride get in the way. That being said I am assuming you commented the way you did because you don't know the answer to my original question?


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## CalTreeEquip (Mar 16, 2013)

You may be getting somewhere here. It's true, if your a good businessman then keep your crew happy and business flowing should not be that hard. There is a lot of learning to do but you sound like your a born student so that shouldn't be a problem. Fact of the matter is most of us in this business are in it because we were not good students but we are good with our hands and bodies and are willing to do things no sane man with options would do.
My advise would be to find an arborist in your area, who is running is own small business but not making much money, who does good work and would be willing to buy into your business as a partner. He can run the field, you run the business. Good salesmanship, marketing and customer care will go a long way in this business with the right crew. Especial since so much of the competition is lacking in many of those areas.
I believe the East Coast company "The Care of Trees" started that way. A young but experience tree guy and an MBA got together and made it work. 
Still there have to be a bunch of better ways to make a living if you have the business skills.
Good luck and look me up when its time to buy equipment.


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## timberland ts (Mar 16, 2013)

You asked a question, resopnses were given, you got defensive, suck it up tree guys are a tough bunch, you need to earn respect


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

timberland ts said:


> You asked a question, resopnses were given, you got defensive, suck it up tree guys are a tough bunch, you need to earn respect



Suck what up? There were several useful responses and several responses that had nothing to do about the question I asked. Just like you. Did you even read my question? I am not being defensive, I am simply weeding through the nay sayers. If I had asked whether I was making a smart decision, then I would understand the different responses. But to simply say that I am going to fail without even contributing to what I asked, is a waste of all of our time.


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## millbilly (Mar 16, 2013)

Shame could you give me any personal details? Age, married, children, how did you acquire the funds to buy the buisness. As for the certified arborist question, in my state its not required. One other thing, there are arborist and then there are arborist, if you get my drift.


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## KenJax Tree (Mar 16, 2013)

I have 16 years experiance which isn't alot compared to some of you guys here but there is no way i'm gonna get told what to do by someone who has no idea how to do my job and has 0 experiance whatsoever in the industry.


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## braiding4fun (Mar 16, 2013)

I began (along with other members of my family) a business in which neither I or my family had any experience. We had a general working knowledge. Eight years later it's going fine, and we've weathered a pretty lousy housing market. (It's a component manufacturing business for the construction industry). My point is this, if you are willing to work hard, if you are willing to bend over backwards to offer great customer service, and if you treat folks fairly and don't take shortcuts you can succeed, no matter what business. I'm no arborist, but I could be if I wanted to, just like you can. Hard work is more than enough to counter all the folks that say you can't do it. As for employees who won't listen to their boss because they think they know more than he does, well, you don't need that type of people in your company. Just my 2 cents.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

millbilly said:


> Shame could you give me any personal details? Age, married, children, how did you acquire the funds to buy the buisness. As for the certified arborist question, in my state its not required. One other thing, there are arborist and then there are arborist, if you get my drift.



Millbilly, I am 40 years old and I am married with a child. I have been working since I was sixteen years old. I have had many ventures over the years including, lawn aerating ,carpet cleaning, construction, but I have always invested my money wisely( Mostly real estate). I have been working in the corporate world for the past 10 years. I have always had a passion for the outdoors and committed myself to finding something that would get me outdoors. I wanted to find a company that would allow me to be physical and that had a proven track record. If the owner was not staying on board I would be looking elsewhere. I am committed to learning the business but I want to make sure that if something happens to the licensed arborist I have a backup plan. There are several jobs where the city requires an ISA arborist.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> I have 16 years experiance which isn't alot compared to some of you guys here but there is no way i'm gonna get told what to do by someone who has no idea how to do my job and has 0 experiance whatsoever in the industry.



I agree, if someone is telling you what to do, you just let me know and I will give them a piece of my mind.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

Del_ said:


> Yeah The Care of Trees is a big success story but it's pretty obvious we're not dealing with a John Hendrickson type here.
> 
> I predict Sham will lose most of the employees in the first couple of months, maybe weeks.




If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done.
- Peter Ustinov


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## CalTreeEquip (Mar 16, 2013)

Shamgarism, I'm liking you more and more. I think you'll be fine. And no it's generally not very hard to find certified arborist these days since a lot of them are out of work since the recession. I actually may now a guy in CO who might be a good match. Let me try and find him.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 16, 2013)

this sounds similar to the thread started by ForTheArborist-the boss is skipping town on everyone. he mentioned getting a new owner and that the boss was going to give him the company and stay on and work for them...


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## joezilla11 (Mar 16, 2013)

have you thought about going in on some sort of deal with the arborist you are so worried about losing? the business you are buying obviously sounds like it depends on him


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

joezilla11 said:


> have you thought about going in on some sort of deal with the arborist you are so worried about losing? the business you are buying obviously sounds like it depends on him



Yes, as stated earlier, he is going to have some skin in the game. Like I stated earlier I want to have a back up plan. You pretty much just stated the exact thing I originally posted.


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## Shamgarism (Mar 16, 2013)

CalTreeEquip said:


> Shamgarism, I'm liking you more and more. I think you'll be fine. And no it's generally not very hard to find certified arborist these days since a lot of them are out of work since the recession. I actually may now a guy in CO who might be a good match. Let me try and find him.



Thank you, I would really appreciate the contact.


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## millbilly (Mar 17, 2013)

Del_ said:


> Yep, an out of work certified arborist sounds like a plan!



yep my thoughts exactly.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 17, 2013)

you wouldnt need a back up plan if you could actually do the work yourself! oh wait thats pretty much what i said earlier..


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## Grouchy old man (Mar 17, 2013)

There are two topics in this forum basically on this same subject. Is it my imagination or is this business becoming an "alternate" investment for those with money because the market, real estate and interest rates are in the toilet?


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## yardguy26 (Mar 18, 2013)

back to the original post. i think you will have a steep uphill learning curve. i started my business 6 years ago when i was 25. i had been working in the woods (felling, timber harvest, gps-gis work, heavy equipment etc.) since i was able to walk. one day a forester dared me to climb some steep pines on a mountain side and from then on i was in love. i went to classes, forestry school, arborist certification courses and so on. i think step one is doing the work. try it out. i learn everyday like most on here. climbing technics, estimating etc. go to classes, talk to positive professionals, watch work in action, go to some estimates on and so on. i started real small and have never lost grasp of my limits, not being afraid to say no to certain jobs. i dont believe this is a business to "buy" and sit back. most guys here would probably not respect an individual that has not done what they are asked to do themselves. hope this helps. bottom line is that tree work is a lifestyle to me and although i have bills to pay and mouths to feed, the overall bottom line is secondary.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 18, 2013)

I think if he was interested in learning the trade he'd be posting about that.

I'm with grouchy this is obviously an investment by a bored member of corporate America because he " loves to be outdoors and wants to be more physical."

I'm glad your real estate investments worked out but doesn't seem like your other ventures did, so what are you going to do if this doesn't work out? Buy a Jurassic park because you like dinosaurs?


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## millbilly (Mar 18, 2013)

His question was about certified arborist. Not whether he will be sucsessful


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## Grouchy old man (Mar 18, 2013)

millbilly said:


> His question was about certified arborist. Not whether he will be sucsessful



I'm more interested in his motives.


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## millbilly (Mar 18, 2013)

If you have enough capital assemble the right people and advertise it can easily be done. Do you know how asplund got started?


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## Grouchy old man (Mar 18, 2013)

Do you know how asplund got started?



> Carl Hjalmar Asplundh left his native Sweden in 1882 and came to work as an accountant in Philadelphia. Here he met Emma Steiger, who had recently emigrated from Switzerland, and after getting married, they settled in nearby Bryn Athyn, Pennsylvania to raise a family. In 1903, Carl died suddenly, leaving Emma with a family of eight children to raise. The youngest son was also named Carl Hjalmar and 25 years later, he would join with his brothers Griffith and Lester to form the Asplundh Tree Expert Co.
> 
> But the family's connection to trees began long before that. In fact, the name Asplundh refers to "grove of aspen trees" in Swedish. To help support his widowed mother and siblings, the second oldest son, Oswald, took up work as a gardener and later founded a landscaping and tree surgery business. It was here that the three younger brothers earned money for their college educations by trimming trees under the guidance of Oswald.



So they had experience in the tree and landscaping business before starting the company. And that was in 1928.


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## KenJax Tree (Mar 18, 2013)

I started out at Asplundh, i got tired of risking my life hanging 2 feet over primary wires. They're still based out of PA in Willow Grove.


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## millbilly (Mar 18, 2013)

Grouchy old man said:


> Do you know how asplund got started?
> 
> 
> 
> So they had experience in the tree and landscaping business before starting the company. And that was in 1928.



Thats a nice little story, looks good on paper.

Not exactly, just because your name means "grove of aspens" does it give you experience in tree care.

The two brothers lost the first million that the Mellon family gave them to start their buisness. It wasn't till after the second million, that the company took off. 

Lester was a graduates of Swarthmore college, an elite private college in Delaware Co Pa. One of the most expensive colleges in the country. Griff went to Penn St. and and Carl went to University of Penn. 

The brothers couldn't stand Griff thats why you hear very little about him.

With 2 million dollars back in 1928 you can grease a lot of palms, not that they did that, mind you. But landing one of the largest utility companys at the time, is impressive.

So I will change my comment, it isn't always the team of people you assemble, or the advertisment, it all boils down to the hard cold cash.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 4, 2013)

I think you guys are easy targets for phony question by phony poster.


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## Grouchy old man (Apr 4, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> I think you guys are easy targets for phony question by phony poster.



Maybe so. But the problem is the jack wagons out there reading this will believe it and think a good place to invest their money is by taking over tree services.


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