# Ash Beams



## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

I milled 2 beams today out of ash.One is 8x8x16'.The other one is 4x6x12'.I just used the alaskan today because i was in a hurry and it's faster that way.THey are very heavey,but i managed to get them in the barn.


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## AndyR (Oct 28, 2008)

They look good.
What are you planning to build with those, if I may ask?


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

Hi Andy,I'm going to build a timber frame barn to store milled lumber in.The 8x8 will be for a sill.


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## Mike Van (Oct 28, 2008)

I wouldn't use ash for a sill unless it's really going to be high & dry. White oak or locust is a much better wood for sills. Just my 2 cents.


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

It will be up high on block peers.So it should be fine.There won't be any water on it.


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## irishcountry (Oct 28, 2008)

Sweet Posted em' like you said appreciate it! Looks like a good start can't wait to see it come together!! Do you have alot of dead ash?? Our area of Mi. is covered with them hoping I will get ahold of some next year I have one nice straight on about 60 ft. or so I would like to make beams out of too I gotta get a mini-mill though I think thats the way to go for me. Thanks for the pics irishcountry


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## Mad Professor (Oct 28, 2008)

End coat the logs/beams ASAP as ash checks badly, then allow them to dry slowly to further minimize checking. 

PPBs (powder post beetles) love ash; spray them with a boric acid solution.

As mentioned, keep the sills dry or use locust, white oak, or black cherry (boxed heartwood that you can't mill into lumber) for sills.

P.S. For faming it's good strong lumber. The "grandfather" of the timber framing revival, Richard Babcock, speaks highly of it . He's forgotten more than most of the framers know.


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## dustytools (Oct 28, 2008)

Nice looking beams Slabmaster!


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## peter nap (Oct 28, 2008)

Good looking beams.:greenchainsaw: 

It's a little amusing how we can sit here and get a lot of pleasure out of a well cut BEAM!

Most people in my family send pictures of their kids or new car. I send pictures of freshly milled boards for siding.


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

irishcountry said:


> Sweet Posted em' like you said appreciate it! Looks like a good start can't wait to see it come together!! Do you have alot of dead ash?? Our area of Mi. is covered with them hoping I will get ahold of some next year I have one nice straight on about 60 ft. or so I would like to make beams out of too I gotta get a mini-mill though I think thats the way to go for me. Thanks for the pics irishcountry



About 80% of my woods was dead ash.These trees that are left are already mostly seasoned before i mill them.Most of my woods have been milled already,but my neighbor friend just gave me his trees,so looks like i'll be busy for awhile with his.I also have another 10 acres of them at my other place in ingham county.These trees all died so fast that it's hard to get them all before they get seasoned and hard.Well at least they won't shrink much or crack after i mill them.


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

Mad Professor said:


> End coat the logs/beams ASAP as ash checks badly, then allow them to dry slowly to further minimize checking.
> 
> PPBs (powder post beetles) love ash; spray them with a boric acid solution.
> 
> ...



Yeah,I'm useing it because of it's strength and toughness.it also holds it's shape when dry,which it already is for the most part.I haven't had any trouble with that beetle yet.I've been storing it in barns though,mabey that's why.I'm putting these beams in the barn the same day i mill them also. Thanks for warning me about that beetle as i will keep a good lookout for them. Mark


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## redoak (Oct 28, 2008)

Allright! Definitely want to see how you approach the project. I've heard ash are under a stress complex they call "ash yellows" which has resulted in some die back here in NH, is that what got these trees? I've read good things about using the wood for timber framing. Keep the posts coming, and I'd love to hear about the framing choices you are making and why.

-redoak


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

My trees died from the ash boring beetle that came over on a pallet from China.So much for world trade!Looks like a bad trade to me:jawdrop: Anyway,it killed all my nice ash trees FAST.They hit the bigger ones first,then got them all.It's spreading fast through the U.S and Canada as we speak.It happened around here 6 yrs. ago.It's still spreading fast.


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## irishcountry (Oct 28, 2008)

I remember sitting around the campfire about 6 yrs. ago with some friends I went to school with and one of my freinds had a girlfriend that mentioned she was doing some work with the state on a ashborer project marking and identifying trees that may be effected and I thought wow what kind of crazy experiment is that!! I ask so she explained and I still thought man is that a waste of taxpayer money HA!! Now I see why they jumped on it so quick they knew it was really bad Mi. is decimated and there are so many ash you see dead tops everywhere you drive now been like that for quite some time its a unfortunate thing and one more reason to rethink trading and how to do it without consequenses like that!! Upside good lumber to mill


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## Brmorgan (Oct 29, 2008)

Pest control is never a waste of taxpayer money. Take it from someone who lives in the middle of literally thousands of square miles of dead trees as a result of inaction to combat the pine beetle. 

That aside, nice beams there. How long does it take to do one pass on that ash?


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## Zodiac45 (Oct 29, 2008)

Those are beauties SM,

That's the same way I transported mine! I used the garden tractor though but same deal. Pretty heavy and mine was 6x6 and only 8 feet!


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## slabmaster (Oct 29, 2008)

Brmorgan said:


> Pest control is never a waste of taxpayer money. Take it from someone who lives in the middle of literally thousands of square miles of dead trees as a result of inaction to combat the pine beetle.
> 
> That aside, nice beams there. How long does it take to do one pass on that ash?



It all depends on what saw and how you sharpen the chain.I used a 395 husky and modifyed ( by me ) ripping chain and it took 15 minutes to run 16 ft.


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## ray benson (Oct 29, 2008)

Nice photos. 8x8 impressive!


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## irishcountry (Oct 29, 2008)

BRmorgan Point taken when I was younger I didn't think about alot of what I do now seems its either wisdom with age or you just really start to pay attention to cause and effect!! Your right though! irishcountry


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## Marklambert61 (Oct 29, 2008)

*Ash beams and building*

Mark,

I'm building a similar project I want to buils a 24 X 32 shed for milling, Drying and firewood storage...

Just wonder how you plan to anchor the sill beam I haven't figured that out yet. I considered pouring a concrete peer every 4 ft along the sill. 

Whats you plan?

Mark


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## redoak (Oct 29, 2008)

Mark L,

Why every 4 feet? If you are building post and beam all the load is transfered to the posts, no need to support an 8x8 between the piers. For my project I centered an anchor bolt in each concrete pier and drilled a hole in the sills to locate them on the pier. I am not worried about the frame going up, just want to keep it on the piers for when I inevitably drive my truck into it. The old timers never secured their sills to the foundation, weight and the internal rigidity of the frame took care of that problem (besides, it wasn't really an option in the late 18th century).

-redoak


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## Marklambert61 (Oct 29, 2008)

*Beams*

Ya I see what you mean my worry is strenth of the wall. If I'm stacking firewood or moving stacks of lumber with forks I'm worry about pushing the walls out.

I planned to butt two 16ft sills to make my 32ft wall so maybe I will just anchor it on the ends and in the middle where the two meet. If I sink a 1/2 threaded rod in the peers I can bolt it down pretty strong.


Mark


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## slabmaster (Oct 30, 2008)

Marklambert61 said:


> Mark,
> 
> I'm building a similar project I want to buils a 24 X 32 shed for milling, Drying and firewood storage...
> 
> ...



It all depends on the dia. of your sill.Of course you want to support the corner posts.and depending on the sill size you don't want to span too far or you will get deflection of the sill in between.The ideal way is to support the sill all the way down end to end as i'm doing with block foundation and anchors. Mark


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## slabmaster (Oct 30, 2008)

*More pictures of more beams*

Got out today and milled up 3 more beams. 1 8x8x12 and 2 6x6x9.I was suprised that they had no knots in them much.


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## slabmaster (Oct 30, 2008)

*more pics.*

I'm starting to get a small pile of beams!I put them all inside.The two large ones were done in the woods.None of these beams have any cracks and are real dry as they have been standind dead for at least 6 YEARS.


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## slabmaster (Oct 30, 2008)

As i did this one,i thought too pretty for a beam.:jawdrop:


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## redoak (Oct 30, 2008)

Great looking beams!

Regarding support of an 8x8 sill, I doubt you'll see any defelction on that ash under 12 feet unless you are planning to park something real heavy on the floor. If you are not hanging joists off the sill then there's no live load at all.

-redoak


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## slabmaster (Oct 30, 2008)

redoak said:


> Great looking beams!
> 
> Regarding support of an 8x8 sill, I doubt you'll see any defelction on that ash under 12 feet unless you are planning to park something real heavy on the floor. If you are not hanging joists off the sill then there's no live load at all.
> 
> -redoak



That's very true.I will be storing some very heavy hardwood in this building which will have a joisted floor on the sills which will be supported well with the block foundation.Ash is easy to bend and i just don't want to take chances with it.I wish i had locust on my properties because of it's stiffness it would be perfect,but i don't have it.What are you setting your timber frame on? And what span?


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## Brmorgan (Oct 30, 2008)

irishcountry said:


> BRmorgan Point taken when I was younger I didn't think about alot of what I do now seems its either wisdom with age or you just really start to pay attention to cause and effect!! Your right though! irishcountry



Yeah, I only say so because when the pine beetle was first noticed 20-25 years ago, it was only in a small patch of pine out west of here. But it happened to be in a Provincial Park, and the government of the day refused to do anything about it because they didn't want to disturb park forests. We don't get the cold winters we used to, and that was the only thing that kept them in check for years. They say it takes a good cold snap below -30C for a couple weeks straight to kill them off. Now, the beetle could quite literally destroy pine forests across the entire continent over the next couple decades. It would've only taken a few million dollars at most to nip it in the bud years ago, and now it's costing everyone hundreds of millions in lost productivity and fire control.


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## slabmaster (Oct 30, 2008)

Brmorgan said:


> Yeah, I only say so because when the pine beetle was first noticed 20-25 years ago, it was only in a small patch of pine out west of here. But it happened to be in a Provincial Park, and the government of the day refused to do anything about it because they didn't want to disturb park forests. We don't get the cold winters we used to, and that was the only thing that kept them in check for years. They say it takes a good cold snap below -30C for a couple weeks straight to kill them off. Now, the beetle could quite literally destroy pine forests across the entire continent over the next couple decades. It would've only taken a few million dollars at most to nip it in the bud years ago, and now it's costing everyone hundreds of millions in lost productivity and fire control.



That's sorta what happened here with the ash borer beetle.The gov. didn't stop it early.Now all the ash trees in the country will probably die.And they were responceable for letting it come over here from china because of free trade.Who knows what else is comming next.Free Trade Should never been allowed with countrys that have these harmful pests.All kids of invasive speices have entered our country from trade with others which has endangered our own natural resources.It seems that the very people we trust to run our country are doing us in with these bad policys.Sorry for venting ,but that's just the way i feel about it.


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## irishcountry (Oct 30, 2008)

I second that slabmaster how else could you think of it after you see the consequesnse I know I would also rather not eat out of bowls from china ect. that have lead in the glaze we definately need to get a handle on all this stuff and quick like!! I wished I had all those ash logs those beams are gonna look great I meant to ask a couple of you guys are working on timberframes are you planning on planning those timbers or just sanding out the marks on the inside or neither nor?? Maybe save that nice peice of ash for part of a guitar , Have you ever made a neck out of ash? Great job and thanks for the pics irishcountry


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## A. Stanton (Oct 31, 2008)

Looks nice. I bet you can't buy those at the Home Cheapo.


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## slabmaster (Oct 31, 2008)

Irishcountry,I haven't made a neck out of ash as of yet,however i plan to this winter.It will be laminated for sure as ash bends easy and i don't need a bent neck.As for the beams, they will be left as is.I like the rustic look anyway.They are actully smoother than i like for beams as is. Mark


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## slabmaster (Oct 31, 2008)

A. Stanton said:


> Looks nice. I bet you can't buy those at the Home Cheapo.



8x8 would be hard to get,mabey in pine on special order but ash would be almost impossible.Hardwood beams would be real pricey i would think.I can't make as many beams as i can boards per day, so they are very time comsuming to make as well.I still don't know when i'll have what it need to frame it up.I guess it depends on the weather.I only get 2 or 3 beams a day compared to 15 or 20 boards. Mark


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## irishcountry (Nov 1, 2008)

I wondered about that since it is supposed to be a good steam bending wood maybe good for acoustic side though I suppose you could put a peice of Walnut down the middle! Beams look real good like they are I just wondered what would be the quickest way to dress them if you wanted them smooth I guess any planer should handle them?? Thanks again for the pics and all the info don't mean to pester you with guitar buidling stuff when this is about beams!! Thanks irishcountry


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## slabmaster (Nov 1, 2008)

A planer would work to smooth them out for sure if that's what you would want.As far as the guitar,i think ash is one of the best tone woods and plan on doing an acoustic this winter with ash neck,sides,and back,with a sitka spruce top.And don't worry about talking guitars on this thread as they are the main reason i mill in the first place.


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## woodshop (Nov 1, 2008)

irishcountry said:


> I wondered about that since it is supposed to be a good steam bending wood maybe good for acoustic side though I suppose you could put a peice of Walnut down the middle! ...



Ash is a good bending wood, but also good static bending. Many native Indians used ash for bows as it had good qualities of being bent and returned to original shape over and over.


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## irishcountry (Nov 2, 2008)

woodshop Good to know!! I have some stacked and some I still gotta get to can't wait to use it!! Thanks


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## redoak (Nov 2, 2008)

Slabmaster: The barn is real simple (so I don't screw it up!). 20x20, 9 posts, 10' between the posts. All the posts and beams are 8x8, braces are 4x6, principal rafters are 8x8 tapers to 6x6. Joists will be 6-8" deep, purlins 4-6" deep.

Just for yucks I ran the deflection numbers on an 8x8 ash beam. Looks like the beam will only give about 1/2" at 20'! Course that's just the dead load of its own weight.

I've got my sills supported under the posts with a concrete pier. With a 10' span they will carry a serious load... I'll run the number on the floor system to see what it will carry. I suspect the joists would give out before the beams.


I think Irish asked about planning? I've seen that done on an oak frame, very beautiful, but a bit too refined for my tastes (and probably for my talents as a finish carpenter). The barn will definitely not be getting that treatment. When I frame the house I might mess with them a bit, at least to keep the spliter factor down. I've seen some really nice work on old mill buildings where they use dry ice grit blasting ont he old beams. Wonder how much that costs $$$?

-redoak


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## slabmaster (Nov 3, 2008)

Wow! Never heard of dry ice blasting.That would hard to recycle I have heard that walnut shell works nice.Your posts are big for that size building!My building will have 8x8 corner posts,but inbetween will be 6x6.They will be 8FT. apart except the doorway area.Mine will also be 20FT> wide And 40 long if i can mill enough beams for that length.So i will have to scarf join the sills.That's the main reason for the foundation.I'm hopeing i can find some white oak for the sills as it is more rot-resistant than ash.Sounds like you are building a strong building there.


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## redoak (Nov 3, 2008)

In timber framing the size of the member is set to accomodate the joinery, not its load bearing capacity. Because the joinery requires a lot of space timberframe structures appear "overbuilt." 8x8 is pretty much the smallest post or beam dimension you'll find with traditional joinery.

-redoak


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## slabmaster (Nov 3, 2008)

redoak said:


> In timber framing the size of the member is set to accomodate the joinery, not its load bearing capacity. Because the joinery requires a lot of space timberframe structures appear "overbuilt." 8x8 is pretty much the smallest post or beam dimension you'll find with traditional joinery.
> 
> -redoak



The old rule for proportioning the width of a mortice and tenon joint in equal size timbers is to make them between a third and a half of the width of the timbers involved.Any wider and the cheeks of the mortice would be too weak; narrower and the tenon would be too weak.In the 4inch timbers that became standard in the lateryears of timber-framing this proportion comes to 1 1/2 " which is plenty good for a building.Mine are going to be larger than that.I've seen modern timber-framed buildings with 6x6 corner posts,4x4 studs, layed on 4x8 sill beams.This size still allows for 3 7/8" to 4 1/8" long mortices.This is useing hardwood of course. Mark


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