# First climb



## Blackbeard76 (Sep 21, 2006)

Had my first real climb Tuesday. It did't go so well. Didn't fall or anything. Anyways here's what happened. By the time I grabbed a saddle there were two left one with no lanyard and one that would have fit a 12 year old girl. So I got the 12 year olds saddle. I'm just shy of six feet and weigh 265. I got the rope into the tree after several trys. No throw line this class. Wedged myself into the saddle and off I tried to go. We were climbing small white ash about 30ft tall. The one I chose had a slight lean to it.Started hip thrusting and went nowhere. Started spinning. It was craptastic. I got the bright idea to use my arms. Before long I was dog tired. Having a hard time hip thrusting and advancing the knot. My question is this? I only have access to the equipment once a week. I just need some basic advice. I will climb that tree.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 21, 2006)

Blackbeard, don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but aren't you going to school to be an arborist? Where are the teachers to show you what to do and to show you what you are doing wrong?

How far out on the limb did you have your rope set? I like my rope close to the trunk so I can keep my feet on the trunk when thrusting-helps eliminate spinning. As to why your technique isn't working, since I can't see what you are doing, maybe ask one of the teachers. But you learned an important lesson about climbing as a big guy-whether using spikes or a rope, always climb with your legs, not your arms. Which brings us to the topic of footlocking. Being even bigger than you are, I avoid body thrusting like the plague-there are easier ways to get up a tree. A pantin is a handy little device.

Or you can always follow clearance's advice on how to get up a tree-"just strap on your spikes and your scare strap and walk right up." 
Good luck.


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## TimberJack_7 (Sep 21, 2006)

Other than having a lousy choice of saddles, you shouldn't feel too bad about not mastering the hip thrust technique on the first attempt. Most people I have seen climb for the first time have a similar experience to what you have described which is goes something like flailing about and getting worn out, frustrated, and a little embarassed.

The trick is, watch someone that is demonstrating proper technique. On your end of things, the key is to lean back, almost, but not quite horizontal, thrust your hips and simultaneously pull your rope, hold tension with one hand and slide your knot upward with the other hand (if your using something like a tautline or a blake's hitch). With you being a bigger guy, and depending on what type of knot you are using, you may find that your size can cause the knot to bind quicker and tighter than someone who ways 140lb.

I use the trusty old tautline and have to fiddle with it a little from time to time, but then again, I do weigh between 210 and 215lb.

Just remember......practice, practice, practice, and when you get tired of practicing, practice your knots while you watch TV or take a poop or whatever. Get to where you you don't even have to look at the rope when you are tying the knot and let the muscle memory work for you.

Use the force luke. There is no try, only do!


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## clearance (Sep 21, 2006)

I heard my name and came running over. Today I climbed a few trees in less than six hours. Actually did ten trees by climbing four and swinging into the others. Two of them were spruces, both at least 140' where I topped them. I think about the spurless crowd often, like can they spurless 400'-500' vertical in a six and a half hour day? Could they do it every day and still take thier dog for a walk after work? Spurless has its place, no doubt, but really now. When you climb with spurs and a steelcore you are secure in the tree always. BTW, I top trees to prevent them blowing over into creeks, thats the job, save the whining.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 21, 2006)

Ha Ha, wasn't whining clearance. I climb with spikes every day myself. Probably one of the few guys on this site who agrees with you. 

Sorry I used your name and put words in your mouth-won't happen again.


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## clearance (Sep 21, 2006)

Beowulf, you don't whine, you just get the job done the safest, fastest way, "evil" as it is. No harm, no foul, I know you're a good guy.


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## Blackbeard76 (Sep 21, 2006)

My teacher tried to help. I guess it's one of those things that you defiantly learn by doing. The rope was set on a branch right against the trunk. I use a blake hitch. I guess my main problem is that it doesn't feel at all smooth or natural.Next Tuesday I'm going to use a better saddle and lean way back. Being thirty years old and watching a nineteen year old shoot up a tree like rocket does a job on the old ego. Thanks for the advice guys I appreciate it.BTW what is a pantin.


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## Diesel JD (Sep 22, 2006)

Pantin is some sort of rope ascender. I think you should go to the tree care video section and watch Ekka's "spikeless trunk walking" vid. Its not as easy as he makes it look, but for a big guy its a heck of a lot easier than body thrusting. Lets you use your strongest(leg) muscles instead of wearing out your upper body. Once you get down climbing with a blake's I won't say its easy, but it works pretty well. BTW, I'm no pro, lerning to climb as well. But the Blakes really works well for me.


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## lees trees (Sep 22, 2006)

*make like its fun*

how about good old foot lock? can be fast and safe


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## Blackbeard76 (Sep 25, 2006)

Climbing class tommorrow. I'm gonna start with the body thrust to start, then switch to trunk walk if they let me. Watched Ekka's video four times. I got the principle of it just chompin at the bit to try it. Bound and determined to climb that tree. I want to thank you guys for giving me all this advice. Ekka you are the man. Thanks for all the info. To be honest I'm really looking forward to chainsaw lab. I know how to do that, not an expert but I'm not totally out of me element. Last question. I know spikes can be damaged using climbing spikes,is it wise to use them if you're only doing a prune job?
What about soft woods,Willow for example. Thanks again guys. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm psyched for you, Blackbeard. John Paul Sanborn is a big dude. He's about 6-8 and 400 pounds. He was only 320, but he got married last year.

We'll have to invite him over.


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 26, 2006)

What a great time of year to be climbing in Amherst!!! You're a lucky s-o-b.

First time sucks for sure. I would suggest starting an excercise program with plenty of stretching, pull-ups, sit-ups, push-ups. This will help out with the stiff muscles and help with the thrusting and footlocking. A lot of guys will tell you that it is mostly leg strength, and it is, but have you ever seen a treeclimber with less-than-jacked arms??? I'm not saying you need to be Mr. Olympia but while you are studying or watching t.v. sit on the floor and 
s-t-r-e-t-c-h


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## Doctor Dave (Sep 26, 2006)

Blackbeard76 said:


> My teacher tried to help. I guess it's one of those things that you defiantly learn by doing. The rope was set on a branch right against the trunk. I use a blake hitch. I guess my main problem is that it doesn't feel at all smooth or natural.Next Tuesday I'm going to use a better saddle and lean way back. Being thirty years old and watching a nineteen year old shoot up a tree like rocket does a job on the old ego. Thanks for the advice guys I appreciate it.BTW what is a pantin.



I'm 46---and I cheat. I made myself a set of ascenders (pair of ascenders and some webbing for the leg loops and the upper loop, all tied to a 'biner). That or spikes. Now, moving in the crown of a spreading tree like an oak is still something I'm trying to get better at---especially when the sub-trunks are at all kinds of angles. Usually I just climb around, with a lanyard attached most of the time, until I get to where I need to go. The problem with climbing a line tied at the bottom is you might need a second one to tie in to at the top, unless you can get everywhere you need to off a figure 8 (which I find inconvenient for anything but rappel). I always take a metal core flip line and a short lanyard. Last job, I got the homeowner to untie my line so I could hang it in the top; I don't have a groundman. Guess I'll have to buy another line.


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## clearance (Sep 26, 2006)

This spurless climbing sounds like a workout, I use my energy on doing the work, not getting there so much. It makes sense to me that climbing with spurs and a steelcore would be so much better for a beginner, because of the positive and secure placement in the tree. I understand the spurless, it would be like when I rappel down or over to another tree or stem and stand on branches, if I didn't have my spurs on. Not a happy thought, I know that spurless is the way, but I believe a man could get used to running a saw and being at hieghts better and safer if he wore spurs to start. Maybe do some easy strip and chunk removals, builds confidence, good luck.


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 26, 2006)

clearance said:


> This spurless climbing sounds like a workout, I use my energy on doing the work, not getting there so much. It makes sense to me that climbing with spurs and a steelcore would be so much better for a beginner, because of the positive and secure placement in the tree. I understand the spurless, it would be like when I rappel down or over to another tree or stem and stand on branches, if I didn't have my spurs on. Not a happy thought, I know that spurless is the way, but I believe a man could get used to running a saw and being at hieghts better and safer if he wore spurs to start. Maybe do some easy strip and chunk removals, builds confidence, good luck.



ladies and gentlemen, introducing the new associate professor of R.O.W. tree maintenance at the Stockbridge School of Agriculture...............PROFESSOR CLEARANCE!


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## clearance (Sep 26, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> ladies and gentlemen, introducing the new associate professor of R.O.W. tree maintenance at the Stockbridge School of Agriculture...............PROFESSOR CLEARANCE!


Thank you, thank you very much, I know I get a new 4x4 and an office with a secretary, but how much is my expense account?


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 26, 2006)

you will be paid in sawgas, baroil, and freshman babes


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## TackleTree (Sep 26, 2006)

Sounds like great benefits. Freshman


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## Bearclaw (Sep 27, 2006)

Doctor Dave, do you always climb without a groundie? Sounds dangerous to me. I hope you at least take a cell phone so that you can call 911 if something happens to you up in the tree! You know, in case the homeowner isn't there, leaves or disappears for some reason. Be careful man.


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## Blackbeard76 (Sep 27, 2006)

So had class yesterday and it went much better. I leaned way back and the body thrusting was a lot easier.Getting my feet even with my head also helped. Weird I get up there and all the knots fly out of my head.Gonna start practcin while upside down.Didn't get high up there but did a little limb walking practiced tieing in. Tore up my hands something fierce. Was a long hour and a half ride back to Worcester


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## Doctor Dave (Sep 27, 2006)

Bearclaw said:


> Doctor Dave, do you always climb without a groundie? Sounds dangerous to me. I hope you at least take a cell phone so that you can call 911 if something happens to you up in the tree! You know, in case the homeowner isn't there, leaves or disappears for some reason. Be careful man.



I try to climb when someone is home. I took my cell phone up with me once, and broke the screen (the inside one still works). Best of all worlds: I'm working with the tree service I refer big jobs to, and do some climbing while the other two guys deal with the brush. Right now, we are clearing about 2 acres of brushy meadow/woods, in prep for laying out a house location. I designed the show, with an eye for retaining native plant diversity, using three colors of ribbon for cut, save, or save and prune for trees and shrubs. 

One corner has big conifers and oaks. Climbed a huge branchy pine and "stovepiped" it---looks great. It would have gone quicker if I brought a pole with a hook---the deadwood kept hanging up and I had to branch walk to clear it up. I broke/cut the secondary deadwood while I was out there, but a pole would have been way quicker to just break the stuff off (nobodies gonna see a one inch stub 60 ft. off the ground!). The oaks have ant nests in some of the dead stubs---just love having them crawl all over me.

I have to re-tie part way down on three of the trees---I'm gonna have to get a 200 ft. rope. Re-tieing is cheaper, though.

And, yes, I'm hooking my way up the big conifers until I'm in big solid branches where I can free climb (with just a jab now and then) to where I tie-in. If I had a bow, and an extra line, I could "jug up" with my set of ascenders. Safer, but it can get annoying where the rope lays against branches. I don't like working off a descender (figure 8); seems like too much trouble to tie off/release all the time.


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## Diesel JD (Sep 29, 2006)

Cool that you are preserving the native trees as much as possible. It'd be so much better if developers would cut down all the trees that were in the way and be real sensitive to the ones that were not...of course that would mean less work for everybody here...if you know what I mean.. Keep hanging in there Blackbeard...what you're doing is impressive.


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## (WLL) (Dec 30, 2006)

*ladders are good*

on a 30 ft tree just get a ladder:bang:


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## JTinaTree (Jan 2, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> on a 30 ft tree just get a ladder:bang:



Um... I think that would defeat the process of learning..Blackbeard76 hang in there you will get the hang of it just keep practicing.


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## Dadatwins (Jan 2, 2007)

Get yourself a pair of atlas type gloves, mesh with rubber palm grips, makes grabbing the rope much easier especially when starting out. Another thing to watch for is the distance between your knot and your saddle. A lot of newbie keep the knot very close and it makes it hard to pull up the full length of your arms. When using the blakes or tautline the attachment knot should be far enough away that you can hold all the wraps in your hand with your arms fully extended. Tautline is a good learner knot and should be mastered, but there are much better /safer attachment knots available once you get the feel of relying on the rope. As for spikes, leave them alone for now, get used to relying on the rope, knots and the balance involved in the work. good luck.


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## clearance (Jan 2, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Get yourself a pair of atlas type gloves, mesh with rubber palm grips, makes grabbing the rope much easier especially when starting out. Another thing to watch for is the distance between your knot and your saddle. A lot of newbie keep the knot very close and it makes it hard to pull up the full length of your arms. When using the blakes or tautline the attachment knot should be far enough away that you can hold all the wraps in your hand with your arms fully extended. Tautline is a good learner knot and should be mastered, but there are much better /safer attachment knots available once you get the feel of relying on the rope. As for spikes, leave them alone for now, get used to relying on the rope, knots and the balance involved in the work. good luck.



Uhhh, like why? How about just climb the tree with spurs and a steelcore and get used to being at hieghts? Relying on a rope? OK, fine like are you cool with what its tied to, I mean its only your life. No need for all the b.s. like pulling on the rope, just walk up the tree. I use the tautline for coming down or moving around. When I put my rope around branches to come down I am looking right at that point, like I can touch it, its not 40-50' above my head, crazy.:bang: :bang: Good luck, be safe.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Uhhh, like why? How about just climb the tree with spurs and a steelcore and get used to being at hieghts?


That would take the joy out of firing a BigShot and the unique skill of ascending a rope.

Clearance, I scratch my head when I read about guys struggling with ascending with friction hitches on 2:1 systems, which is pretty much a daily occurance in this forum, but I hope and pray I don't come off as an arrogant do-it-my-way-or-you're-an-idiot cowboy.

We don't spike trees because we're in TREE CARE. Spiking through the cambial layer of a tree is not caring for it. Puncturing through this living tissue, biologically speaking, is damaging. Professionally speaking, it is unnecessary.

Now, I respect your facet of arboriculture and I understand the size of your trees in the bush are big and thick-barked. But most of us perform tree care on trees that are not as thick-barked and are they are owned by people who hire and pay us. From the perspective of those who sign our paychecks, leaving spike marks on the trunks of their trees for them to see long after we're gone is just not acceptable practice. They expect more of us. At a minimum, to not create and leave unnecessary, visible damage.

To achieve this, we rely on ropes.


Personally, I like to let fellow climbers know that good footlocking technique on 1:1 rope using low-friction hardware can get you ascending as fast as going up a ladder, or on spikes. However, flat-out speed isn't as important to most as it is for you and me. Most (myself included) place priority on the care of the tree. Do you know why??? Because we're TREE CARE PROFESSIONALS.

Up until now, Clearance, I have always smiled as you paint a picture of yourself, we're all unique and different, and that's cool. But as far as this last rant in Arbo 101 in a thread titled 'First Climb', dude, give it a rest. You are shelling out advice that applies to takedowns and line clearance. It's not AT ALL what this thread is about.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jan 3, 2007)

Tree Machine said:


> That would take the joy out of firing a BigShot and the unique skill of ascending a rope.
> 
> Clearance, I scratch my head when I read about guys struggling with ascending with friction hitches on 2:1 systems, which is pretty much a daily occurance in this forum, but I hope and pray I don't come off as an arrogant do-it-my-way-or-you're-an-idiot cowboy.




Good post TM. Ive seen you post similar sentiments before. Ascending on a 1:1 is much more efficient and is a skill all good arborists' should have. Thank you for opening my eyes to that. Having stated that, I think everyone should learn the basics first which includes body thrusting on a 2:1. I believe the instructor Blackbeard has actually teaches his students how to climb on a bowlin on a bight first (now THAT is oldschool) . BTW you don't come across as arrogant, you just make sense.


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## lorax (Jan 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Uhhh, like why? How about just climb the tree with spurs and a steelcore and get used to being at hieghts? Relying on a rope? OK, fine like are you cool with what its tied to, I mean its only your life. No need for all the b.s. like pulling on the rope, just walk up the tree. I use the tautline for coming down or moving around. When I put my rope around branches to come down I am looking right at that point, like I can touch it, its not 40-50' above my head, crazy.:bang: :bang: Good luck, be safe.



Climb with spurs and top trees? Are you Certified? How are spurs healthy for a tree?


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## clearance (Jan 3, 2007)

Never did I say to only climb with spurs, only that it is the safest, best way to start. Some here say that anyone can climb with spurs, no talent needed. Treeseer had a poll about the safest way to climb and spurs had more votes than any other method. The guy is starting out, I want him to be comfortable and safe. Lorax, I ain't going to rehash stuff, yes I am certified here, to climb around powerlines that is, ISA don't mean jack in that regard. Treemachine, that was a pretty good post you made, cheers.


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## lorax (Jan 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Never did I say to only climb with spurs, only that it is the safest, best way to start. Some here say that anyone can climb with spurs, no talent needed. Treeseer had a poll about the safest way to climb and spurs had more votes than any other method. The guy is starting out, I want him to be comfortable and safe. Lorax, I ain't going to rehash stuff, yes I am certified here, to climb around powerlines that is, ISA don't mean jack in that regard. Treemachine, that was a pretty good post you made, cheers.



If he climbs on spurs first he will not learn to climb on rope. At the college I teach at we start them out withe the basic climbing set up the good old "body thrust". The students have to have a firm grip on this skill before they climb on spike, usually 8-9 climbing sessions:biggrinbounce2:


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## Climbah in Mass (Jan 3, 2007)

*blackbeard's first climb*

Black beard if it is any consolation I can remember being out with OTG and struggling my fat ace up a tree. ANY APPLE OF THE CRAB VARIETY For some of us bigger guys (6'2" 260 here and damn proud of it) it is not as easy. but simply keeping at it and getting the body thrusting down, is huge. Not only for ascending but simply moving around the tree once you get there. Hey Also you work out muscles you never knew you had, but really need to do this stuff. one suggestion stay away from binding knots. start out on a Blake's(tie it right!!! suislide!!) But once you get comfort on it get onto something less binding at our weight it makes the journeys a lot easier than fighting with a knot all day. Also micropully is a life saver in the hand over hand. get the basics down first and struggle now.
IF ALL ELSE FAILS DRILL HOLES, INSTALL THROUGH BOLTS AND JUST WALK UP LIKE A LADDER.


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## Magnum783 (Jan 3, 2007)

I was terriable off the bat too. I didn't quite know how to use my toes. That is my recomendation. Use your toes to help you push up the trunk. OH and has anyone mentioned practice makes perfect. 
Jared


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## booboo (Jan 3, 2007)

Ah yes, the first climbing class at Stockbridge. In mine was a chick with arms the size of Rambo's who'd been climbing for a while. She was in the same tree as me, big white oak I think. She flew up the tree and I flailed and sweated and swore and humped my sorry butt over the first branch, then sat there for about 10 minutes catching my breath and trying to figure out what to do next!

Who's teaching that class these days?


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## Dadatwins (Jan 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Never did I say to only climb with spurs, only that it is the safest, best way to start.



Spurs and tree work has been beaten up so many times here not even worth another :deadhorse: 
As for a newbie starting out, basics in my opinion mean rope and saddle, on a 2:1 with a tautline with a body thrust. That is all many started with back in the day and it is all many still need and use today. Gaffs have there place and they are invaluable on many removals, but I am sure we all know someone who at some time has jammed a gaff into a boot or shin. Why add the additional danger factor? For the purpose of arbo 101 I say leave the gaffs in the truck and learn the basics. Additional skills like gaffs, I agree it is a skill, and various friction hitches and even footlocking or pantins or whatever can come later. I have said it before there are too many climbers out there that start out with a bunch of clips and prussics and advanced mechanical devices, that run the risk of dropping one of these newfangled gadgets while up in a tree and panic because now they are stuck and they can't get out of the tree. I am all for the new stuff and believe it saves a whole lot of time and energy, but someone starting out should learn and master the barest of basics before moving on. JMHO


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## treeseer (Jan 3, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> ...there are too many climbers out there that start out with a bunch of clips and prussics and advanced mechanical devices, that run the risk of dropping one of these newfangled gadgets while up in a tree and panic because now they are stuck and they can't get out of the tree. I am all for the new stuff and believe it saves a whole lot of time and energy, but someone starting out should learn and master the barest of basics before moving on. JMHO



 :rockn: 

First you walk, then you run. Or not; runners do not always win the race.

Remember the Tortoise and the Hare?

a guy could spend <$300 on new gear and climb and prune any tree.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jan 4, 2007)

*cut it out.............*



Climbah in Mass said:


> Black beard if it is any consolation I can remember being out with OTG and struggling my fat ace up a tree. ANY APPLE OF THE CRAB VARIETY For some of us bigger guys (6'2" 260 here and damn proud of it) it is not as easy. but simply keeping at it and getting the body thrusting down, is huge. Not only for ascending but simply moving around the tree once you get there. Hey Also you work out muscles you never knew you had, but really need to do this stuff. one suggestion stay away from binding knots. start out on a Blake's(tie it right!!! suislide!!) But once you get comfort on it get onto something less binding at our weight it makes the journeys a lot easier than fighting with a knot all day. Also micropully is a life saver in the hand over hand. get the basics down first and struggle now.
> IF ALL ELSE FAILS DRILL HOLES, INSTALL THROUGH BOLTS AND JUST WALK UP LIKE A LADDER.



You haven't been 260 since high school. I heard you throw a rope into the tree and bend it down to the ground while the rest of the crew prunes it:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Climbah in Mass (Jan 4, 2007)

*All right allright*



OTG BOSTON said:


> You haven't been 260 since high school. I heard you throw a rope into the tree and bend it down to the ground while the rest of the crew prunes it:hmm3grin2orange:



You know it is only the larger oaks I can do that with now. Any thing over 2.5 dbh gets a bit tough.


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