# Just came across this...



## huskyman1 (Jan 4, 2015)

Had to order one;

http://teespring.com/dirtyloggers


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## Rudedog (Jan 4, 2015)

In it to win it. Thanks. Cool shirt.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

I don't get it. You cannot cut everything in the world.


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## Rudedog (Jan 4, 2015)

Anything, not everything.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2015)

Hilarious. I think if a guy showed up looking for a falling job and wearing something like that I'd ask for a skills demonstration before I took him seriously. References, too.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

Rudedog said:


> Anything, not everything.



Same difference. You might cut anything, but if it isn't meant to be cut, you in a heap of trouble. It kind of sets back the kinder, gentler, new age logger that some have worked hard to promote.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2015)

slowp said:


> Same difference. You might cut anything, but if it isn't meant to be cut, you in a heap of trouble. It kind of sets back the kinder, gentler, new age logger that some have worked hard to promote.


 Yup. Can you picture John Pollman wearing something like that? I can't and he's the real deal.


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## huskyman1 (Jan 4, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Hilarious. I think if a guy showed up looking for a falling job and wearing something like that I'd ask for a skills demonstration before I took him seriously. References, too.




I think it's just a cool sweatshirt that shows support to a dying line of work. I bought one and will proudly wear it.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Yup. Can you picture John Pollman wearing something like that? I can't and he's the real deal.



I can't see many of the guys who have worked hard to get a good reputation wearing it. I can see some of the hacks in it, if they can afford it. It's a different world here, I guess.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2015)

huskyman1 said:


> I think it's just a cool sweatshirt that shows support to a dying line of work. I bought one and will proudly wear it.



LOL...you go right ahead. Make your statement. It's America, right? Land of the free, home of the brave, where each and every citizen has the inalienable right to be as ridiculous as he can possibly be.

I'll keep track of the actual loggers I know that wear one of those. Probably not many.


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## Rudedog (Jan 4, 2015)

Yup. Unless your old people that have to be super correct.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

huskyman1 said:


> I think it's just a cool sweatshirt that shows support to a dying line of work. I bought one and will proudly wear it.



It isn't a dying line of work. Logging is going full bore here.


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## Rudedog (Jan 4, 2015)

Only till the EPA shuts them down. Your vote is important slowp.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

Rudedog said:


> Only till the EPA shuts them down. Your vote is important slowp.



Please explain why that would happen?


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## huskyman1 (Jan 4, 2015)

Gologit said:


> LOL...you go right ahead. Make your statement. It's America, right? Land of the free, home of the brave, where each and every citizen has the inalienable right to be as ridiculous as he can possibly be.
> 
> I'll keep track of the actual loggers I know that wear one of those. Probably not many.



I think a couple of you are looking way too much into this. My father had a logging company and some of my earliest memories were logging. It's been 10 plus years now since I've worked in that line of work. I'm proud of my past and wearing anything that shows support to the logging industry is all good in my book, plus it may piss off a few liberals.....


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2015)

huskyman1 said:


> I think a couple of you are looking way too much into this. My father had a logging company and some of my earliest memories were logging. It's been 10 plus years now since I've worked in that line of work. I'm proud of my past and wearing anything that shows support to the logging industry is all good in my book, plus it may piss off a few liberals.....



We appreciate your support. Now...go out and buy some American lumber products. That's how you can best show your allegiance to the timber industry.
We'll handle our own PR program.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

That's what we need, more people pissed off at loggers. You need to take your rhetoric to the political forum. I know of more than a few "liberals" at least you would consider them to be, that actually work in the woods. 

I'm waiting to hear about the EPA.


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## huskyman1 (Jan 4, 2015)

slowp said:


> That's what we need, more people pissed off at loggers. You need to take your rhetoric to the political forum. I know of more than a few "liberals" at least you would consider them to be, that actually work in the woods.
> 
> I'm waiting to hear about the EPA.


Easy there big fellow.....same side....


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2015)

huskyman1 said:


> Easy there big fellow.....same side....


Nope, I don't think we are and I am not a fellow. I get riled up when some narrow minded Neanderthal starts talking liberals vs conservatives. The world isn't that cut and dried. Maybe if you returned to the firewood forum you might get the adoration you want by your political rhetoric.

It's obvious that neither of you know of what you write of. Dying breed? Well, the loggers who could not adapt to the new ways or who were hard to work with did decrease in number. That is not a bad thing. The good ones--those who care about the quality of their work, had a nasty bump when the recession hit, but are back to work now.

It isn't at all like what you are watching on Axemen.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2015)

slowp said:


> It isn't at all like what you are watching on Axemen.




I hate that show. It's done more harm than good.


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2015)

You probably want to be directing your ire at the ESA, not the EPA. The effects are much more direct and immediate. To be fair, though, both can be pains in the ass.


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## bitzer (Jan 5, 2015)

Your intentions were there huskyman. I think. The sweatshirt is confusing at best though. You should get the badass mother ****er one instead. That one is to the point and pretty much sums it all up.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2015)

madhatte said:


> You probably want to be directing your ire at the ESA, not the EPA. The effects are much more direct and immediate. To be fair, though, both can be pains in the ass.



I am trying to get Rudedog to share his knowledge of what conspiracy he knows of. But he hasn't enlightened us. I object to the two of them bringing their political division making into this forum. It gets tiresome and the L&f forum* was* one of the places fairly free of it.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2015)

slowp said:


> I am trying to get Rudedog to share his knowledge of what conspiracy he knows of. But he hasn't enlightened us. I object to the two of them bringing their political division making into this forum. It gets tiresome and the L&f forum* was* one of the places fairly free of it.


 Darn, does that mean I have to scrape my "I Like Ike" sticker off my saw?


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Darn, does that mean I have to scrape my "I Like Ike" sticker off my saw?



Is that on the yellow one?


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2015)

slowp said:


> I object to the two of them bringing their political division making into this forum.



WHAAAT that's crazy talk


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2015)

madhatte said:


> WHAAAT that's crazy talk



Is not!


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## SliverPicker (Jan 5, 2015)

The text on the back doesn't even make any sense. Next subject.


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## KYLogger (Jan 5, 2015)

Annnnnddddddddddddddddd....................we're done....................


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## Rudedog (Jan 5, 2015)

slowp said:


> Please explain why that would happen?


You're right. It was a stupid comment.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 5, 2015)

i think what rude dog was tryin to say is that he thinks the epa has made it hard on logging. IDK about if it was the epa but there sure are more laws now than it used to be. some are down right silly and some were warranted.
Logging is alive on this side of the bay Randy and i bet some on your side. you are right in that it is tougher now than it was 25 years ago, how ever here at least it was state and local government that passed those laws.

now every body put a smile back on.........those of us with fewer teefs can just do the closed lip grin


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2015)

Actually, there *was *a law suit to try to make the EPA declare silvicultural activities--timber harvest a source of pollution to water. It went to the Supreme Court. I seem to recall that the plaintiffs backed down, and the EPA will continue to* NOT* require permits for road runoff. Note the NOT. The EPA might be affecting firewood burners, but that's not logging. 

We have state forest practices act (law) and the Northwest Forest Plan on the federal land. The people who are continuing to log have adapted. The EPA is not involved in either. The Endangered Species Act or ESA has more affect on timber management. 

Yup, pretty poor attempt there....


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## Rudedog (Jan 5, 2015)

slowp said:


> I am trying to get Rudedog to share his knowledge of what conspiracy he knows of. But he hasn't enlightened us. I object to the two of them bringing their political division making into this forum. It gets tiresome and the L&f forum* was* one of the places fairly free of it.


You're right. I do apologize.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 5, 2015)

No need to apologize, this is the internet you're supposed to act tough


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2015)

Rudedog...your statement wasn't stupid, just ill informed. A lot of people think EPA runs everything. They sure seem to.

EPA doesn't directly effect forest practices. Not yet anyway. I'm sure they'd like to. And I'm sure one day they'll get their foot in the door. Maybe they'll spend all their time fighting with all the other agencies that already have regulatory power over logging. A lot of that goes on.

There are clouds on the horizon though.

There's already one state agency in California that doesn't directly oversee forest practices but has still had a disastrous effect on logging...the California Air Resources Board. CARB has mandated changing to low emission diesel engines and that means that anyone with diesel powered equipment is forced to comply. The costs to loggers is, and will continue to be, enormous. In a business where profit margins vary from small to smaller it's just another obstacle to try to overcome. Some do. Some don't.
There are programs available, through state agencies, to help offset the costs but it's still tax money that's paying for it so one way or another the logger is spending the bucks to stay in compliance.

There are already CARB "smoke cops" in California who set up roadside inspections for truckers and their sole job is to check for the opacity of diesel exhaust smoke and to determine particulate matter emission. They can also inspect your engine and exhaust system to determine if it's been tampered with. The fines they can levy are enormous.

California, rightly or wrongly, has long set the standard for air quality control. Other states watch what we do and often establish practices based on ours. That's not always a good idea but it happens. A lot of people resent California. I can understand why.

I'm trying real hard here not to let this post stray over into politics but once a government agency is set up, state or federal, it seems to be with us forever. If and when your state starts to follow our lead get ready to shell out some big bucks. Continuously.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 5, 2015)

maybe mah brain is foggy but Ms. P and Nate what does ESA stand for?

and your right, endangered species act has affected us hard. non existant critters have cost me work.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 5, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Rudedog...your statement wasn't stupid, just ill informed. A lot of people thing EPA runs everything. They sure seem to.
> 
> EPA doesn't directly effect forest practices. Not yet anyway. I'm sure they'd like to. And I'm sure one day they'll get their foot in the door. Maybe they'll spend all their time fighting with all the other agencies that already have regulatory power over logging. A lot of that goes on.
> 
> ...


dang California............lol, i'm kidding of course but we have adopted alot of what was started there...............water hurts us worse though.
Bob what about guys running older equipment? i mean off road [skidders] seems i herd some thing about this.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2015)

The Endangered Species Act or ESA


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 5, 2015)

ah, yes you are right there..................you need an eagle? they cheap........


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> dang California............lol, i'm kidding of course but we have adopted alot of what was started there...............water hurts us worse though.
> Bob what about guys running older equipment? i mean off road [skidders] seems i herd some thing about this.




That's okay, say anything you want to about California. It's probably true. We don't just lead the nation in clean air regulation, we also lead in complete and utter goofiness on the part of our elected leaders.

I haven't looked closely at the latest regulations on diesels. They're confusing and they change almost constantly. There have been extensions, exceptions, exceptions to the extensions, deadlines, extensions of the deadlines, rescinding of the deadlines, and frequent revisions to every rule and proposal they've ever made.
I sold off the last of my big yellow machinery a while back and I did it with a sigh of relief. I still talk to the guys I worked with and the whole thing is driving them nuts.


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2015)

It bothers me quite a lot that CARB has the pull to essentially dictate policy in other states. I know they rule Cali with an iron fist, but the downhill roll into other states is steady and insidious. Look no further than those stupid vapor-proof nozzles on gas cans or the ridiculous concept of a "Partial-Zero Emissions Vehicle" to see what I mean. Still, the larger and more immediate impact to my work is ESA; we just got THREE new species listed on our property in the last year and the USFWS have yet to give us clear guidance on how they want us to change our practices to accommodate this fact. We're in a legal limbo where screw-ups could mean jail time, but there's no clear consensus on what exactly constitutes a "screw-up". Especially during fire season, this makes me nervous as hell. I don't want to lead my crew into trouble, but how can I avoid it if I don't know the rules?


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## BeatCJ (Jan 5, 2015)

I know the EPA is having a significant effect on the work rigs I drive everyday. The regen cycle for the diesel particulate filters is causing significant issues with engine oil contamination.

And to use that as a segue, I suspect saw emissions will come under closer scrutiny. OTOH, two stroke boat motors stink way less than they used to.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 5, 2015)

i expect you folks have the waterway restrictions like we do..........hard to believe for me that some states don't have any at all......NY is much more laxed than here ........you wouldn't think that would be the case.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 5, 2015)

Nate, do they verify the critter is there or do they just say its on the map? i can tell you the maps here are frequently wrong, but that takes a visit from the state big wheels to clear.......of course they take they sweet time.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2015)

madhatte said:


> We're in a legal limbo where screw-ups could mean jail time, but there's no clear consensus on what exactly constitutes a "screw-up". Especially during fire season, this makes me nervous as hell. I don't want to lead my crew into trouble, but how can I avoid it if I don't know the rules?



Exactly right. If I know what the rules are I can usually figure out how to stay in compliance. But if the agencies involved can't give me clear guidelines, or if they offer advice that contradicts the advice of another agency it leaves me squarely in the cross hairs.
Among certain of my redneck brethren the regulatory nightmare creates an attitude of "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want to do, what I think is right, what kept me out of trouble last time, and hope I don't get caught". Except that, eventually, you will get caught.


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Nate, do they verify the critter is there or do they just say its on the map? i can tell you the maps here are frequently wrong, but that takes a visit from the state big wheels to clear.......of course they take they sweet time.



Worse. They are actively releasing captive-bred critters, and then tracking them through a variety of methods... which means that not only are the maps always behind, but the critters are a moving target. It makes planning pretty difficult, but more than that, we have to sort of always be braced for the next change. Sometimes we can see it coming. Lots of times we can't. I will say this, though -- our local F&W guys are great to work with. It's the state and fed folks that are a hassle.



Gologit said:


> Among certain of my redneck brethren the regulatory nightmare creates an attitude of "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want to do, what I think is right, what kept me out of trouble last time, and hope I don't get caught". Except that, eventually, you will get caught.



I hate it when I get stuck working with one of those yahoos. They don't understand what's at stake and put the whole organization at risk. Fortunately, right now the battle is over not forested but rather prairie land, so I can keep my head down most of the time... except, of course, during fire season. You know how fire politics get.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 5, 2015)

yeah, sweatshirt pretty nuch says "i'm not a logger, but if I was, I wouldn't be a professional" 

oh well


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## slowp (Jan 6, 2015)

I was trying to lay out sales in the state of Jefferson while the experts were trying to come up with buffering for the "rare" Del Norte salamander, which seemed to be located under any rock you'd turn over. They had to be buffered, even though they were found in rock pits and along road shoulders. We laid out the units and buffered the salamander spots, which were many. Then the buffering requirement changed, we had to double it. We did. Then it changed again and at that point, we told the wildlife folks to go out and redo the buffers. They were huffy. They were above having to use marking paint. They were afraid of the paint. They wore coveralls and respirators and finally did redo the buffers. 

That really slows things down--redoing buffers. It was also said that the Del Norte salamander expert basically had an anti-logging agenda, which is why the requirements kept changing.


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## slowp (Jan 6, 2015)

Oh, Humptulips posted a blasphemic piece on the mostly treehugger site. It was a write up referencing a study done by some fish people in Oregon, which found that young fish actually like sunlit areas of streams. One of the replies he got, from somebody who has a degree in English and decided to go back to school and get a masters in forestry or ecology--no experience except working on trails, says the writer's knowledge is doubtful because he stated he did not know what one of the acronyms thrown at him stood for. 

That's part of the problem with the Forest Service. It has folks in high places who are like the former English major.


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2015)

slowp said:


> That really slows things down--redoing buffers.



Boy howdy. Waiting on 3 sales right now, tho I just got the green light on the two toughest ones to negotiate. 

Another insta-roadblock, which is just as tough to fight but less often talked about, is the Antiquities Act. Any human activity over 50 years old can be declared "Historic" under this act, so any contract has to include language that says "STOP EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY IF YOU FIND OLD STUFF". Ironically, I had an area declared off-limits due to an old railroad grade and springboard-notched stumps. That's right; logging prevented due to evidence of past logging. No problem, though, in that case -- the spot was otherwise protected due to wetland buffers.


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2015)

slowp said:


> One of the replies he got, from somebody who has a degree in English and decided to go back to school and get a masters in forestry or ecology--



Kim Brown?


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## 2dogs (Jan 6, 2015)

I am waiting for the ESA ball to drop on the Monarch butterfly. Their numbers have dropped, probably due to Roundup, but the local effect will be on Eucalyptus. The Monarchs use the eucs here and because of that there has been a push to protect the trees. Large eucs are called "old growth" by the tree huggers and the media. I suspect within two years all eucs will be protected and as any firefighter knows they are a messy tree that drops oily leaves. Eucs are a significant fire hazard.


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2015)

I bet you're right. 

*shudder*


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2015)

madhatte said:


> Boy howdy. Waiting on 3 sales right now, tho I just got the green light on the two toughest ones to negotiate.
> 
> Another insta-roadblock, which is just as tough to fight but less often talked about, is the Antiquities Act. Any human activity over 50 years old can be declared "Historic" under this act, so any contract has to include language that says "STOP EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY IF YOU FIND OLD STUFF". Ironically, I had an area declared off-limits due to an old railroad grade and springboard-notched stumps. That's right; logging prevented due to evidence of past logging. No problem, though, in that case -- the spot was otherwise protected due to wetland buffers.




I'm laughing with you, really I am. The Sierras are filled with old gold mining detritus and anything can and will be declared an arch site. A hole in the ground with a broken shovel qualifies. Dump sites qualify.


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2015)

Gologit said:


> I'm laughing with you, really I am.



It's enough to make me question my sanity working in this business.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 6, 2015)

jeez there is old human activity every where on this side.......i sure they don't do that here.

Ms. P we allegedly have some salamander that don't live any where else.........see they put delmarva on the front of any name to make it different. like the delmarva fox squirrel.......obviously different than a fox squirrel on the other side of the bay.

i wonder just what round up has done............


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> jeez there is old human activity every where on this side.......i sure they don't do that here.



Thing is, they could, if they got it into their heads that they wanted to. It's best to just work until somebody comes along and says "stop!"


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2015)

What you really don't want to find are old grave sites, undocumented pioneer cemeteries, or any kind of human remains. I've run across all of these things at one time or another and I reported them. Seemed like the right thing to do. You do it reluctantly because you know what happens next but you do it.
Logging, and every other form of "invasive activity", comes to a screeching halt. Immediately. Total shutdown until seventy three different kinds of 'ologists get through poking and prodding and cataloging and arguing among themselves. 
Really screws up production.


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## slowp (Jan 6, 2015)

Logging on 4 to 6 feet of snow. We "foresters" still were told to suspend operations and put the errant loggers in breach of contract if even a limb fell on a suspected archy site. Prior to that, we had a large Come To Jesus meeting with purchasers and operators. Not all archy sites had been authenticated, so in order to get the fire salvage out in a timely manner, such dire measures had to be agreed to or else law suits and injunctions might have occurred. I was relieved that the loggers complied. A breach is a lot of paperwork and phone calls and meetings.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 6, 2015)

i'm surprised about all the human activity sites being a big deal for y'all.........i'v seen plenty of grave yards in the middle of wood lots. some in the 1600s, some there is no hope of reading. now indian sites abound as well......no one cares. most of those have long been pilaged.
i give the graves a wide birth.....just seems right to leave them alone, they don't bother me. i have not found any remains........and don't want to. one of the foresters found some a few years ago, turned out to be a missing person/murder victom.


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## madhatte (Jan 7, 2015)

Oddly, the plundering of native sites is exactly why the Antiquities Act was written into law. Apparently, around the turn of the 20th century, spurred by the vogue for Egyptian relics, anything that seemed "ancient" was big business. 

I have yet to find remains, but, especially in some parts of our forest near sketchy places like Spanaway, I'm always worried that I'm going to.


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## BeatCJ (Jan 7, 2015)

I thought Eucalyptus was an imported species? Hard to see how it could qualify for any protection.

It seems foolish (now I'll get in trouble for thinking) to inhibit the timber industry for it's impact on the Monarch Butterfly when ethanol production (habitat lost from land taken out of CRP to plant corn) is a far greater issue. Heck, reseed logging areas with milkweed, and timber production would probably help preserve the species.

I drove a stake into a grave one time, it was off the edge of a cemetery. Not marked by a headstone or anything. We were widening at an intersection to add a left turn pocket, the excavation must have just missed it when they cut the slopes years before. We ended up having to buy Right of Way on the other side of the highway and shift the alignment. Hit a trash dump, had to have an archaeologist come look at it. She said it's just garbage, only cost us a few hours. Ended up placing all that material in the bottom of a hole we were filling.


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## madhatte (Jan 7, 2015)

At this point, I'm pretty sure most of these issues are decided based more on emotional than logical or even legal precedents. The wildlife folks are so used to getting their way, and the agencies they push around so used to losing the battle, that due diligence is an afterthought. My suspicion is that this will continue until it's simply too expensive to buy timber products, after which point some court case will rule in favor of the timber sale, setting the stage for others to do likewise. In the distant future, I would like to see an equilibrium where both sides' basic needs are met. The business will not likely ever look like the heyday of logging in the 60's and 70's, nor will it look like it does today. I also suspect that climate change will drive some policy decisions, particularly the link between fire suppression and salvage, which have been at the center of a good portion of the hottest debates of late. My guess is that salvage will get easier, but it will be too late so save out much of the volume, so a return to timely thinning will be a viable discussion again.


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## Gologit (Jan 7, 2015)

Great post. Great predictions too. What you wrote should be required reading for everybody involved, pro or con, in timber harvest.


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## bitzer (Jan 7, 2015)

I was an anthropology major and I had a professor tell me that if I ever find any human remains to just bury em back up and go about my business. The ensuing paperwork and attention from ologists, indians, and the media would never end. 

The Dnr is the only organization I really ever have to deal with and most of them are too lazy to get out of their trucks to follow up on MFL timber sales. Thats my experience anyway. Fully mechanized logging is widely understood and expected in these parts. Folks are usually surprised that people still cut timber by hand.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 7, 2015)

same here bitz....i am a dinosour around here. i guess no one would cut the oversize if i didn't?

i never have any problem on the job site, its getting the permits approved to start with.


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## Gologit (Jan 7, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I was an anthropology major and I had a professor tell me that if I ever find any human remains to just bury em back up and go about my business. The ensuing paperwork and attention from ologists, indians, and the media would never end.



That's always tempting. Just walk away and forget about it because you know what's going to happen if you turn it in.
Twice I've found remains that turned out to be murder victims and once I found what was later determined to be a suicide. All three had been in the woods a long time and the remains were skeletal and somewhat scattered. There are places around here where 100 feet off of the road might just as well be the middle of nowhere and where most people never tread. Good dumping grounds I guess.
In all three cases the families of the deceased had gone many years not knowing what had happened. Now they know. I'm not sure if that's good or bad but it's not really my call to make.
Was it a major PITA getting shut down, filling out reams of paperwork, being interviewed by several different types of law enforcement, and dealing with media people? Definitely.
Would I report the findings again? How could I not?


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## bitzer (Jan 7, 2015)

Permits? We don't need no stinking permits... farmers don't seem to when dealing with water. Last time I checked if you want to cross a navigable stream(can float a canoe one day out of the year) that'll start at 300 bucks, plus you need to wait for approval, etc. 

Bob- I meant to mention remains that were of historical significance. Anything on the surface probably requires some notification. I've got some forensic training and can identify most human bones. If I've got a skull in my hand I could tell you approx age, sex, race, approx time frame of deposit. I'm typing on a tablet these days with one finger so I usually keep things brief if I can. I would have done the same thing.


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## bitzer (Jan 7, 2015)

Oh and I will be starting round two of logging the indian burial ground near my house. See when the govt wants it done so they look good its called "restoration". Personally I liked it better with the trees in the park.


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## HuskStihl (Jan 7, 2015)

Bitzer, ya should have majored in husky boots n' coils!


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## bitzer (Jan 7, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Bitzer, ya should have majored in husky boots n' coils!


Theres no money in that. No money in anthro either or forensics or going to school forever to work behind a counter counting pills (ok some money in that, but it sucks). Medical examiner jobs are hard to get too. Found that out the hard way as well. I've got enough goddam organic chemistry, physics, and calculus under my belt to create life out of booger and some tin foil tho.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 8, 2015)

well the ingredients are cheap... maybe you'll create something useful?


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