# tree monkeys 2153 deluxe



## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

I haven't done very many build threads in the past, and I most likely wont be doing to many in the future. it just takes to much time. I will be as detailed as possible.
the saw is a new in the box 2153 deluxe. (heated handles)
so we start by ......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................and then..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................or I could--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------but what if I==========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================so then__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ so there you have it. hope you found this helpfull


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

more to come


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## nmurph (Jan 21, 2015)

In.


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## cuttinties (Jan 21, 2015)

With illustrations that detailed, how could there be more? I'm simply flabbergasted by the detailed lines and precise dots.


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## Warped5 (Jan 21, 2015)

Just like a 'Randy' thread ... in just one post!!

Amazing!


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## Deets066 (Jan 21, 2015)

Looks like a runner


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## LowVolt (Jan 21, 2015)

So I see you used a popup. Why is that?


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## TermiteBuffet (Jan 21, 2015)

LowVolt said:


> So I see you used a popup. Why is that?


 I may have lol'd at this


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

LowVolt said:


> So I see you used a popup. Why is that?


yes I used a pop up squish band to lower the spark plug


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## bryanr2 (Jan 21, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

I lost the first couple pics, gone, vanished. i'll just have to live without them.


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

good looking saw


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## HuskStihl (Jan 21, 2015)

It looks like it might freeport. Oh well, jugs are cheap


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

I cut .045 off the base, and .065 off the flange.


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

a hand cutter leaves these little chatter marks.


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

that's taken care of fast and easy. then check squish, repeat cutting and sanding until I get the squish I want. takes me about 15-30 minutes depending on how much needs to come out.


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

looks like .017


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## tree monkey (Jan 21, 2015)

from the time I took the saw out of the box to this point took about an hour


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> from the time I took the saw out of the box to this point took about an hour



Old......and slow.


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## AKDoug (Jan 22, 2015)

Scott- Do you cut the base and flange on a lathe?


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

the stock port numbers were
in 146
ex150
tr 110
bl 20
sq 33
bg 20
removed the base gasket and got
in 150
ex 146
tr 106
sq 13
bl 20
after cutting base and squish
in 158
ex 133
tr 87
bl 23
sq 17
these numbers may not be exact but, good enough for what I need to know.
there all going to change anyway.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 22, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Scott- Do you cut the base and flange on a lathe?





Horse shoe rasp


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Scott- Do you cut the base and flange on a lathe?


yes, I had a pic but it's lost somewhere.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Old......and slow.


I still do it this way for a reason randy.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

this is a 390 set up to cut


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

after cutting the sq I always put a ring all the way to the top to insure that the piston has the clearance it needs. take care in doing this so you don't break the ring.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

it' not the best pic, but it shows that the heat shield has a larger port opening then the cylinder. I match the sides and bottom, but raise the top more.
you would not want to do this to a pipe saw.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

with the heat shield on the muffler, you can see how much I raised the port. port match the muffler to the heat shield.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

I put the sanding mandrel in the cylinder and mark the stock port with a fine line ever sharp pencil. I then measure port width.
the bore is 1.740, 65% of the bore is 1.131. that's what I want. it's at 1.004 stock


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

I cut a divot in the center of the port window and check port timing. I repeat this until I get to 2*short of my target duration. I work one side at a time, widening and blending to the center. about .060 wider. I put the mandrel back in, if i'm working on the right side , I line up the mark to the port on the left side. once I get the shape I want, I mark the right side. then repeat the process on the left side. all this is done with a hog.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

a little more work with a double cut and a diamond cutter and this will be good. slow and careful till I hit my target width and duration.


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## RedFir Down (Jan 22, 2015)

Awesome thread Scott, you have hit on a lot of good points!!! Thanks for sharing!

So how have you been? Feeling better? 

I seriously considered flying out there for your firewood cut a month or so back. It would have been a pleasure to help out, meet you and the others!! I wished it would have worked out.


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## CR888 (Jan 22, 2015)

Thanks for sharing Scott, you are a builder that keeps fairly quiet on AS.....which is not the norm for most builders. I like that you are doing things quite different to others and like many others would love to have the privilege of a 'treemonkeyed saw' in my stable. I like what you do to the dolmar 7900 cranks.....clever. I was wondering with the added mass/weight on the crank does is kinda store power like a weighted flywheel? I realize its primarily done to raise comp but l wonder how it affects things while cutting.


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## Milkman31 (Jan 22, 2015)

I like a good build thread!! Thanks for your time.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 22, 2015)

In before all the arguing starts. 

love it.


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## lwhaples (Jan 22, 2015)

Watching with huge interest.Thanks for sharing.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 22, 2015)

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I love to see how this stuff works.


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## Stihl Livin (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm going to have to run this saw next time I stop out. Maybe it will be for sale too.


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## MarcS (Jan 22, 2015)

The real gain on porting a WH model is half the warm up time and an extra 10 degrees on the handle temp. Better ship this one out with a pair of welding gloves[emoji2]


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

thanks for all the positive replies guys


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## c5rulz (Jan 22, 2015)

Great job as usual Scott, thanks.


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## blsnelling (Jan 22, 2015)

Great thread Scott. Good to see you posting.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

you can see in this pic that I changed the shape of the port a hair from stock. a hair more curve in the roof of the port(because I made it wider)to reduce the chance of snagging a ring, and for longer ring life.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

using the base gasket to match the base to the case is not the best, but is a good starting point. the flange needs to be widened upward in this pic to the outer corner of the port, parallel to the top line. in the past, that is where I left it. but i'm going to widen the port window . in order to do that correctly , I need to widen the entire port.


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## sunfish (Jan 22, 2015)

Good stuff, Scott. Thanks for posting this!


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

oops


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## Tractorsaw1 (Jan 22, 2015)

Scott, a couple of questions on the squish cutter & sanding drum. How close to the bore size is the main cutter body & how do you modify the sanding pad & body to fit the bore? Where do you get the sanding body? Thanks


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## Rudedog (Jan 22, 2015)

Great thread. I really like the one you did for me.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)




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## JONSSTIHL (Jan 22, 2015)

thanks for the great pictures, will be watching this thread for when I'm ready to attempt mine


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Good stuff Scott. 

I like.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

I keep coming back and looking at these pictures and thinking.........wow, this is so much different than what I do on these saws.

I wonder..........should I? Why? How come?

Thanks for tickling my brain Scott........you've given me a lot to turn about in my head while I'm grinding today.


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## stihlbro (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 397032
> 
> 
> oops



Epoxy time!


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## sunfish (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I keep coming back and looking at these pictures and thinking.........wow, this is so much different than what I do on these saws.
> 
> I wonder..........should I? Why? How come?
> 
> Thanks for tickling my brain Scott........you've given me a lot to turn about in my head while I'm grinding today.


Yeah, me too. 

I'm expecting to see a pop- ... oh wait, different thread, sorry...


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

sunfish said:


> Yeah, me too.
> 
> I'm expecting to see a pop- ... oh wait, different thread, sorry...



Very cool to see a totally different approach.


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## srcarr52 (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Very cool to see a totally different approach.



Completely different process than I use, but it's nice to see different approaches.


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## spencerpaving (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 397032
> 
> 
> oops


I like external boost ports! nice work!


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 22, 2015)

Scotts personal 044 jug will make your mind think a little ,a little port redesign done .


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## David Young (Jan 22, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Scotts personal 044 jug will make your mind think a little ,a little port redesign done .



I'd love to see that.


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## srcarr52 (Jan 22, 2015)

spencerpaving said:


> I like external boost ports! nice work!



That's a fresh air intake... kinda a poor mans strato.


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## Adirondackstihl (Jan 22, 2015)

Awesome!!


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## 7sleeper (Jan 22, 2015)

Thank you for posting!

7


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## Adirondackstihl (Jan 22, 2015)

7sleeper said:


> Thank you for posting!
> 
> 7


+1


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## Magnum783 (Jan 22, 2015)

This is amazing I am supposed to be working right now and you have completely entranced me. My day is done, I will be mesmerized by Scott's work the remainder of the day. What time is it, where am I, what's my name, Scott is amazing!!!


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## 5R-INC (Jan 22, 2015)

I have 3 saws that Scott has monkeyed on for me and they are awesome. The 372 he did is just simply pissed off at the world. Really enjoyed getting a tour of his porting shop and he showed several of us his tools and shared lots of information. Class act!!


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm just glad there is a thread to take some focus off the pop-up/flat top debacle...

Neat to see what can be done with the right skill set, not necessarily the tools.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> I'm just glad there is a thread to take some focus off the pop-up/flat top debacle...
> 
> Neat to see what can be done with the right skill set, not necessarily the tools.




Did you wanna talk about popups?


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

I would like to know what intake and transfer numbers are. With the lowers that open.......the timing numbers are all I can think about.


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I would like to know what intake and transfer numbers are. With the lowers that open.......the timing numbers are all I can think about.


For the record, I'm an idiot, but I've been into enough saws and I was wondering the same thing. I'm thinking this is gonna be a screamer?? Is the stock carb gonna be able to feed all that?


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> For the record, I'm an idiot, but I've been into enough saws and I was wondering the same thing. I'm thinking this is gonna be a screamer?? Is the stock carb gonna be able to feed all that?



I've read enough of your posts to know that you are far from an idiot........

I also have run enough of Scott's saws to know that he knows exactly what he's doing, and where he's going with this. 

The first saw that ever really made me say WOW was a 066 that Scott built. When I ran that saw.......I was hooked.


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## Adirondackstihl (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I would like to know what intake and transfer numbers are. With the lowers that open.......the timing numbers are all I can think about.


Case compression?

Pass the bananas....


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## KG441c (Jan 22, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Case compression?
> 
> Pass the bananas....


Yep. My question several pages back was lowered crankcase compression and Scott said yes. Im interested to see whats next? My guess is he will leave the exhaust lower than usual?


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Hey Keith. 

I got a box from you today. 

Thanks !!!!


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## srcarr52 (Jan 22, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Yep. My question several pages back was lowered crankcase compression and Scott said yes. Im interested to see whats next? My guess is he will leave the exhaust lower than usual?



The exhaust is going to end up above 160 duration from what I can tell by the markings on the mandrel. The 0.010" on the ex port on this saw will change the duration ~2deg.

My guess is that he'll leave the intake timing alone, with large transfers keeping your intake timing in check becomes a big factor.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> The exhaust is going to end up above 160 duration from what I can tell by the markings on the mandrel. The 0.010" on the ex port on this saw will change the duration ~2deg.
> 
> My guess is that he'll leave the intake timing alone, with large transfers keeping your intake timing in check becomes a big factor.



He might even fill the intake floor......


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## srcarr52 (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> He might even fill the intake floor......



I hear that really works well for some saws.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> I hear that really works well for some saws.



I'm eyeballing a few on my list...... lol


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## srcarr52 (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm eyeballing a few on my list...... lol



Are they all orange and white saws?


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Not all.


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## EvilRoySlade (Jan 22, 2015)

If I recall back on the other tree monkey's a genius thread one of the pics was a 2153 with intake filled. I think I jumped ahead?


Sent from my stupidphone


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

I spotted that too Roy.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

I just ported an 044 last night with some new numbers..........all I can say is Holy ****. You better hold on when you drop this thing in the log.


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## Stihl Livin (Jan 22, 2015)

Maybe you better reopen my 064 again if you are liking the change you did on the 044


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## Moparmyway (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just ported an 044 last night with some new numbers..........all I can say is Holy ****. You better hold on when you drop this thing in the log.


Care to share those numbers and some pics of them ports and the jug ?


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Care to share those numbers and some pics of them ports and the jug ?



I think I'll just keep this one under my hat. 

I will post a video tomorrow though.


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## KG441c (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I think I'll just keep this one under my hat.
> 
> I will post a video tomorrow though.


Shi*!!!! LOL!


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## Magnum783 (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I think I'll just keep this one under my hat.
> 
> I will post a video tomorrow though.


Please do and let us know somewhere please I can't wait


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## RiverRat2 (Jan 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I think I'll just keep this one under my hat.
> 
> I will post a video tomorrow though.



Imagine that Randall!!!! hey is that kind of like havin yer very own bunch of banannas,,,, and stuffin/eatin them 2??????


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## bryanr2 (Jan 22, 2015)

This is all very exciting. 2015 should be an interesting year for porting!


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## sarahdodgegeek (Jan 22, 2015)

5R-INC said:


> I have 3 saws that Scott has monkeyed on for me and they are awesome. The 372 he did is just simply pissed off at the world. Really enjoyed getting a tour of his porting shop and he showed several of us his tools and shared lots of information. Class act!!


Amen to that! We've had a handful as well.... Can't say as though I got anything bad to say... Except I need more [emoji7]


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

I should end this thread right here and leave you all hanging


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## KG441c (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I should end this thread right here and leave you all hanging


Not!!! Lol!!!


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## andydodgegeek (Jan 22, 2015)

Good to see you posting Scott. As Sarah said we have several Treemonkeyed saws and they all are top notch. I know the 064 of mine is one on my top favorites and everyone who has run it seems in agreeance it is truly bad a$$.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I should end this thread right here and leave you all hanging



LMAO


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

Tractorsaw1 said:


> Scott, a couple of questions on the squish cutter & sanding drum. How close to the bore size is the main cutter body & how do you modify the sanding pad & body to fit the bore? Where do you get the sanding body? Thanks



the mandrel/cutter is smaller then the bore. how much? beets me, I make them by feel. it's just enough so I can slide the cylinder on without the cutter touching the side of the cylinder. when cutting, I push down and to the side into the cutter.
I make the sanding body from wood, hard maple. the sand paper is 80 grit adhesive backed air file paper, in for auto body work. I just stick the block on the paper and cut it with a utility knife.


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## tree monkey (Jan 22, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> Is the stock carb gonna be able to feed all that?



I don't think so


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 23, 2015)

The anticipation is killing me...I want to see what hes got up his sleeve.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

it appears some of you are confused, I like it.


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 23, 2015)

This isn't one of those "lets see you effers copy my port work from pictures" threads and then show a botched up jug and sit back and laugh about how many self porters just fubared a perfectly good cylinder?? I guess I better stop grinding


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

the transfers take more time then the rest of the saw. it's the most important part of it too. I widen most 4 port engines, but rarely widen a 2 port.
the main port is towards the exhaust, secondary towards the intake.
I widened the mains towards the exhaust port. I do this so I can keep the angle of the port angled towards the intake. I do my best to keep the tunnel the same width and height. a small taper is ok(wider at the base). on the secondary's, the port match didn't allow much room to widen the port. so I cut the port on an angle from the base to the window, and cut the web on an angle to match.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> This isn't one of those "lets see you effers copy my port work from pictures" threads and then show a botched up jug and sit back and laugh about how many self porters just fubared a perfectly good cylinder?? I guess I better stop grinding


no it's not, but you might want to wait till i'm done


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

the secondary look like it has a dip in it, i'll have to look at it again, but I think it's a shadow.
I like to have the last, about, 1/4 " of the port to be flat. parallel to the piston crown. the secondary's are angled upward stock, and I usually cut through then to get the shape I want. the roof of this port has to be very thin. I want a nice even radius up the back.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

I mark the top of the intake on the piston at bdc. and the intake shape on the bottom.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

I raised the intake port .100.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

marked the flour of the exhaust port at bdc, and the port shape at tdc.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

I put the ring on the piston to hold it in place. I line up the bdc marks in the ports. I then mark the piston to the cylinder. this mark might over lap the port shape mark. you need to leave .050 over lap. in other words, DON'T FREE PORT IT.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

I raised the flour of the intake.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

as long as I don't need the clearance anymore, and I removed a lot of metal, and it should improve flow, then why not.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

I think I killed the cat.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

port matching the muffler


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

every work sew gets forestry approved spark screens


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

when using a 359 intake system, and hda 199 carb, things become a little tight. trimming this helps a lot.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

sense i'm not using the zama, I won't be needing that little manual fuel pump anymore. I think it's a 4 penny nail. fits tight. a dab of durco in the hole, tap the cut off nail in, and a piece of shrink tube. works for me


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## CapitaineHaddoc (Jan 23, 2015)

Your work is really impressive, thank you for sharing


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

numbers. I almost forgot the numbers
intake 144
exhaust 152
transfer 110
blow down 21
squish 17
base gasket na

now all I need to do is go put it together


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## rattler362 (Jan 23, 2015)

This is a great thread Scott Thank for sharing.


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

all back together, sexy


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

this stuff was leftover. looks like a "make my saw slow" kit


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## EvilRoySlade (Jan 23, 2015)

So want carb do I send with a 357xp, same 199 if I can find one?


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## Hinerman (Jan 23, 2015)

Do you ever sleep?


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## blsnelling (Jan 23, 2015)

Very interesting build. Definitely different. My case matching and transfers look pretty much just like yours. I'm definitely going to use your tip to clearance the piston skirts around the transfer intakes. Thanks for the tip!


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## Tractorsaw1 (Jan 23, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> the mandrel/cutter is smaller then the bore. how much? beets me, I make them by feel. it's just enough so I can slide the cylinder on without the cutter touching the side of the cylinder. when cutting, I push down and to the side into the cutter.
> I make the sanding body from wood, hard maple. the sand paper is 80 grit adhesive backed air file paper, in for auto body work. I just stick the block on the paper and cut it with a utility knife.


Thanks for the info, now I have more tools to make


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

EvilRoySlade said:


> So want carb do I send with a 357xp, same 199 if I can find one?


yes


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## tree monkey (Jan 23, 2015)

Hinerman said:


> Do you ever sleep?


sleep? whats that?


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 23, 2015)

I want to run that thing. And wheres the piss revving video


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 23, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> I want to run that thing. And wheres the piss revving video



Leave the piss revving in the house Lets see the bite of the dog because the bark is for girls.


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## M&Rtree (Jan 23, 2015)

Put that thing in a log and post the video!


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## EvilRoySlade (Jan 23, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> yes



Well that settles it. 
Not the place but anyone sitting on a working 199?


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## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2015)

Cool build Scott. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 397258
> 
> 
> this stuff was leftover. looks like a "make my saw slow" kit




Signs of a great mechanic,a guy that can take something apart ,have a pile of parts left over ,and it still works .


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## Ronaldo (Jan 23, 2015)

EvilRoySlade said:


> Well that settles it.
> Not the place but anyone sitting on a working 199?


Yup, I have a 199 thats been worked over and fixed by Mr. Treemonkey.


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## SCHallenger (Jan 23, 2015)




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## sunfish (Jan 23, 2015)

Some very different chit here. Thanks fer the look, Scott!


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## cgraham1 (Jan 23, 2015)

When can I send mine? I've got one here that needs the same treatment!


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## tacomatrd98 (Jan 23, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, Is this destined to be a true "work" saw or is this a GTG toy? Is this a special build for this particular saw or is this your approach to all 346/2153's ?


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks Scott.

I ain't ever gonna do this, but it is interesting to see what you guys do do, when you do do your voodoo so well!

Philbert


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Jan 23, 2015)

To cool.... Loved seeing something different . Reminded me of the old RS days in the beginning.

Well done Scott.  

Glad to see your better.


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## lwhaples (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks again for sharing. Gave me a lot more to think about.


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## tpope (Jan 23, 2015)

Sweet build and pictures for us dummies. Thanks for the million words you have shared!


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## Milkman31 (Jan 25, 2015)

Ttt


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## J.Walker (Jan 25, 2015)

So I'm thinking I now need another smaller saw to go along side of my other Tree-Monkeys stuff.
This build will be the perfect thing.


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## heimannm (Jan 25, 2015)

Scott - I don't understand much of what you do but I know it works. 

I am really happy to see that you are back on your feet, working in the shop, and posting again.

Great to have you back!

Mark


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## EvilRoySlade (Jan 25, 2015)

I'm still hoping we get a video. That was some unique carving, I'd love to see how the Jonny responds.


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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

tacomatrd98 said:


> Just out of curiosity, Is this destined to be a true "work" saw or is this a GTG toy? Is this a special build for this particular saw or is this your approach to all 346/2153's ?



it's going to be a work saw. the owner is a very fussy, demanding sob. he wants it to be as strong as I can get it.


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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

the runs at 14.200 no load, and wants to run at 12,500 in the cut, but is being held back. I left the transfers with an upward angle to see the difference then cut flat. it.s back apart to cut the transfers flat.


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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

not quite right


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## drf255 (Jan 26, 2015)

Subscribed. Very interesting build.


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## KG441c (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 398291
> 
> 
> not quite right


Where does the shorter burn pattern on the one side come from? More taper in the ceiling on that side?


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## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

R&D at it's finest.


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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

I believe the lower right port is doing most of the work, pushing the charge to the left, leaving a dead space in the right side of the chamber.

the saw didn't have enough run time to read the chamber.


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## KG441c (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I believe the lower right port is doing most of the work, pushing the charge to the left, leaving a dead space in the right side of the chamber.
> 
> the saw didn't have enough run time to read the chamber.


So if it continues to burn with that same pattern what will you change to even it out? Thanks


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

port timing, or port size, or port shape


----------



## KG441c (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> port timing, or port size, or port shape


Any one in particular u will start with in this particular situation?


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

I changed the roof angle this time


----------



## KG441c (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I changed the roof angle this time


Flatter with less taper? I was working on my 440 transfers and debating flatter or tapered in the ceiling


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

flat, no upward angle


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 398289
> 
> 
> View attachment 398290



I love the play-dough epoxy dams. 

I also have better luck with flat transfer roofs.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

if I know i'm going to cut through, I epoxy it first


----------



## sunfish (Jan 26, 2015)

Speaking of epoxy, I finally got my brain wrapped around the epoxy in the intake to raise the floor.
That's huge, man. Thanks!


----------



## redfin (Jan 26, 2015)

Great read Scott. Thanks for taking your time to share.


----------



## wcorey (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> if I know i'm going to cut through, I epoxy it first



Same goes for welding them, much easier to build it up first, filling in holes with thin edges can easily end up as a larger hole.
I tend to break through on the outer top exhaust side corner and am left wondering how thin it is on the ones that don't.
Might be better off to break through and then shore it up than be running a transfer tunnel that's an eggshell...


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 26, 2015)

wcorey said:


> Same goes for welding them, much easier to build it up first, filling in holes with thin edges can easily end up as a larger hole.
> I tend to break through on the outer top exhaust side corner and am left wondering how thin it is on the ones that don't.
> Might be better off to break through and then shore it up than be running a transfer tunnel that's an eggshell...



Yes, it's much easier to weld the tops of the transfers when there is not a hole in them and plenty of material to attach to.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 26, 2015)

When you guys do all this extra work ,i hope you get extra compensation for your time vs a reg port job .


----------



## ft. churchill (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 396927
> 
> 
> View attachment 396928
> ...


In the last picture are the barbell looking weight disc lookin' devices with all thread sticking up out of them home made fixtures for closing up the crankcase halves?


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 398291
> 
> 
> not quite right


Do you have a picture of what a desired piston wash looks like?


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Jan 26, 2015)

Epoxy has been used for years like this. If you can look close at this Marcel Vincent 166 exhaust you can see the epoxy that was used to build the top of exhaust being it was raised so much.


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 26, 2015)

yur saw looks nice Scott, but mine is huskyer


----------



## Moparmyway (Jan 26, 2015)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Epoxy has been used for years like this. If you can look close at this Marcel Vincent 166 exhaust you can see the epoxy that was used to build the top of exhaust being it was raised so much.



I was waiting to see if someone had any pics of epoxy on the exhaust side. If it can hold there, and on Scotts high RPM crank, I dont see any reason whatsoever to avoid it on the intake.

Thanks Scott, Randy, and Kevin for posting up these pics showing real world use of epoxy in our saws !
I wouldnt have believed it, but I am convinced now.

the only question I have now is ............ whats the better epoxy, JB Weld or Devcon with aluminum ?


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 26, 2015)

I would think devcon would be better but JB weld has held on lots of intakes and stuff like that.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

I can't say with any certainty. I've used both with good results. 

I've built external transfer ports entirely out of JB Weld. Worked just fine.

The Devcon with aluminum is "suppose" to expand and contract at the same rate as the base metal.......that's why I chose it.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jan 26, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> I would think devcon would be better but JB weld has held on lots of intakes and stuff like that.



The Devcon is very good stuff, but because I get a great price, we use Belzona supermetal to adjust our exhaust and to repair/beef-up our "cut" Mercury 2.5 L drag motor blocks... it also mates very well with cast aluminum


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

ft. churchill said:


> In the last picture are the barbell looking weight disc lookin' devices with all thread sticking up out of them home made fixtures for closing up the crankcase halves?


no, it's part of my band saw sharpener


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Do you have a picture of what a desired piston wash looks like?


I looked around the shop today for one, but nope


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> yur saw looks nice Scott, but mine is huskyer



do you like pink?


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I can't say with any certainty. I've used both with good results.
> 
> I've built external transfer ports entirely out of JB Weld. Worked just fine.
> 
> The Devcon with aluminum is "suppose" to expand and contract at the same rate as the base metal.......that's why I chose it.



Devcon F is what is use for that reason too. It has a thermal coefficient of expansion extremely close to aluminum or magnesium. I've never had a problem with it heaving off the base metal.


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> do you like pink?



jake would be jealous

I should have taken that red thing for insurance


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

346 with the same porting


----------



## cuttinties (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I looked around the shop today for one, but nope


This look ok?


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

cuttinties said:


> This look ok?



not bad


----------



## wcorey (Jan 27, 2015)




----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2015)

very nice


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 27, 2015)




----------



## Moparmyway (Jan 27, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


>


Hmmnnn ............... Post 184 ?


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 27, 2015)




----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 27, 2015)

wcorey said:


>


What is that from?


----------



## Moparmyway (Jan 27, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> What is that from?


Little Johnny does Shanekwa from behind


----------



## drf255 (Jan 27, 2015)

What alloy filler rod are you using on the jugs when welding up the transfers?

Has anyone ever tried to tig a jug up to the nikasil to change a port? Any success, or did the plating pop right off?

I may attempt on a garbage jug.


----------



## wcorey (Jan 27, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> What is that from?



242xp


----------



## 7sleeper (Jan 27, 2015)

drf255 said:


> What alloy filler rod are you using on the jugs when welding up the transfers?
> 
> Has anyone ever tried to tig a jug up to the nikasil to change a port? Any success, or did the plating pop right off?
> 
> I may attempt on a garbage jug.



Attempt and report back.Personally I would pre heat the cylinder because heat is normal for it. The rapid heat change would make me worry. 

7


----------



## wcorey (Jan 27, 2015)

drf255 said:


> What alloy filler rod are you using on the jugs when welding up the transfers?
> 
> Has anyone ever tried to tig a jug up to the nikasil to change a port? Any success, or did the plating pop right off?
> 
> I may attempt on a garbage jug.



I use 4043, not a strong as 5356 but cleaner and easier. 
I've never tried going right up to the plating, too difficult for me to consistently control the puddle to that degree, just too much chance for distortion. I guess the plating might potentially act as a dam and help a bit. Even If I was successful on a junk jug, I still don't think I'd chance a good one, too easy to mess up, cast aluminum can be funny stuff.
If a ring isn't traveling over it, then you could probably get away with a spot with bare aluminum but then I'd be more concerned with the type of filler rod used. 
Adding material to pistons is common practice, though I've found out the hard way that building up the bottom of a skirt on an old used piston can be a losing proposition...


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 27, 2015)

drf255 said:


> What alloy filler rod are you using on the jugs when welding up the transfers?
> 
> Has anyone ever tried to tig a jug up to the nikasil to change a port? Any success, or did the plating pop right off?
> 
> I may attempt on a garbage jug.



4043 

I've had the plating pop off when getting too close to the cylinder bore or when you get too much heat in the cylinder.


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 27, 2015)

wcorey said:


> I use 4043, not a strong as 5356 but cleaner and easier.
> I've never tried going right up to the plating, too difficult for me to consistently control the puddle to that degree, just too much chance for distortion. I guess the plating might potentially act as a dam and help a bit. Even If I was successful on a junk jug, I still don't think I'd chance a good one, too easy to mess up, cast aluminum can be funny stuff.
> If a ring isn't traveling over it, then you could probably get away with a spot with bare aluminum but then I'd be more concerned with the type of filler rod used.
> Adding material to pistons is common practice, though I've found out the hard way that building up the bottom of a skirt on an old used piston can be a losing proposition...



5356 is not recommended for service temps above 150deg. Also 4043 works better for high silicon content cast.

I've built up piston skirts before, even the sides.


----------



## EvilRoySlade (Jan 27, 2015)

Boy I was proud of myself for this




After reading this I'm at the learning to tie shoe stage


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 27, 2015)




----------



## mdavlee (Jan 27, 2015)

RiverRat2 said:


> The Devcon is very good stuff, because I get a great price, we use Belzona supermetal to adjust our exhaust and to repair/beef-up our "cut" Mercury 2.5 L drag motor blocks...


Is there a big price difference in them?


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 27, 2015)

288 I think



576


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 27, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> 288 I think



That is a tree95.


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 27, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> That is a tree95.


Yep. That's the one Dave has


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 27, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Yep. That's the one Dave has



Not, anymore. I think he sent it down the road when I built the 2100 for him.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2015)

Keith likes that 395 you did for him Shawn. 

He's wants me to try and build a 066 that will run with it.........

I'm not so sure I can.


----------



## Stihl Livin (Jan 27, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Keith likes that 395 you did for him Shawn.
> 
> He's wants me to try and build a 066 that will run with it.........
> 
> I'm not so sure I can.



Just ask the other monkey. I'm sure he will help you.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2015)

It's almost done........just not sure a 066 will ever touch a 395.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 27, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It's almost done........just not sure a 066 will ever touch a 395.



Randy,
Nic sure likes the 2153 he got from me last week.


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 27, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It's almost done........just not sure a 066 will ever touch a 395.



It'd have to be one really well done early 066, non decomp with all the tricks. I tried with that 066 I just built, it's got great torque and decent RPM but it just doesn't have the anger of a well done 395. Those things hate the world.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> Those things hate the world.



Yep.......they sure do.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 27, 2015)

I've had a few jugs tig welded after I would smoke a piston in my snowmobile. They would fill in the scored parts in the bore, machine, hone and sent out for re-Nikasil.


----------



## VinceGU05 (Jan 27, 2015)

drf255 said:


> What alloy filler rod are you using on the jugs when welding up the transfers?
> 
> Has anyone ever tried to tig a jug up to the nikasil to change a port? Any success, or did the plating pop right off?
> 
> I may attempt on a garbage jug.


yes. i aint no gun on ally with the TIG but the test looked ok.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jan 28, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Is there a big price difference in them?


The 1 kg package of BelZona 1111 Super metal Kit is about $150.00-200.00 depending on who you know, Never priced the Devcon but I think there isnt alot of price difference. I believe the belzona has a higher rating in PSI tensile strength, Seems I read the 1111 Super metal is good to 4k psi. versus 2k for devcon


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 28, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Keith likes that 395 you did for him Shawn.
> 
> He's wants me to try and build a 066 that will run with it.........
> 
> I'm not so sure I can.


Yeesh....
He ain't askin for much, is he...
So when yer done with that, and all the folks are standing on the other side of the Red sea, I got this 026 I want to cut as fast as my 365..
Mmmkay???


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 28, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Yeesh....
> He ain't askin for much, is he...
> So when yer done with that, and all the folks are standing on the other side of the Red sea, I got this 026 I want to cut as fast as my 365..
> Mmmkay???


2 words nitromethane & pipe


----------



## Blowncrewcab (Jan 28, 2015)

One time we saw T-Landrum with a little stihl Nitro saw that cut pretty quick . Is the Dude that had tree Monkeys saw at the 372 cutoff still on here?? Cowroy?? Haven't heard from him in a while..


----------



## sammy riddle (Jan 28, 2015)

killer work Scott big thanks


----------



## Hinerman (Jan 28, 2015)

Blowncrewcab said:


> One time we saw T-Landrum with a little stihl Nitro saw that cut pretty quick . Is the Dude that had tree Monkeys saw at the 372 cutoff still on here?? Cowroy?? Haven't heard from him in a while..



According to his (Cowroy) profile page he is still around and posting...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2015)

That was a TreeSlingr' 372 that Cowroy had.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 29, 2015)

I remember ole Les sent a muffler modded scrap bucket saw to that build, and didn't come in last...
That was funny..


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

Blowncrewcab said:


> Is the Dude that had tree Monkeys saw at the 372 cutoff still on here?? Cowroy?? Haven't heard from him in a while..



I believe the guy that bought the monkeyed 372 was a local logger here in WI. Saw was used in production like most of Scott's saws. IIRC it came back to the shop once for an air leak, and went back to the woods again soon after.

There are plenty of guys that run one of Scott's saws daily and don't come around AS ever. I didn't know about this place till years after having a saw ported by Scott. I am not sure group therapy works


----------



## Blowncrewcab (Jan 29, 2015)

Tree Slinger -Tree Monkey- Same thing


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 29, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> I believe the guy that bought the monkeyed 372 was a local logger here in WI. Saw was used in production like most of Scott's saws. IIRC it came back to the shop once for an air leak, and went back to the woods again soon after.
> 
> There are plenty of guys that run one of Scott's saws daily and don't come around AS ever. I didn't know about this place till years after having a saw ported by Scott. I am not sure group therapy works


It don't...

Ain't you got some pulpwood to cut er sumthin ??


----------



## Hinerman (Jan 29, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> I am not sure group therapy works


 


Hedgerow said:


> It don't...


 
Group therapy does work. You are just in the wrong place for it. AS is the largest CAD "enabling" organization on earth. This is the place to get your fix, not the place to get cured  You don't go to the bar to get off the sauce if you know what I mean...


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 29, 2015)

Hinerman said:


> Group therapy does work. You are just in the wrong place for it. AS is the largest CAD "enabling" organization on earth. This is the place to get your fix, not the place to get cured  You don't go to the bar to get off the sauce if you know what I mean...


Enabler....


----------



## Blowncrewcab (Jan 29, 2015)

You couldnt be more correct. I once had 1 chainsaw, Stock, Now I have 7 and cant leave any of them alone. Sure is expensive for just killing time on the net


----------



## Vic Hyman (Jan 29, 2015)

I have had many other hobbies and addictions before...like roadracing motorcycles... and this has been my cheapest hobby/interest/addiction in the last 20 years


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> It don't...
> 
> Ain't you got some pulpwood to cut er sumthin ??



well Scott took my saw away, sumptin bout my stumps


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

Hinerman said:


> Group therapy does work. You are just in the wrong place for it. AS is the largest CAD "enabling" organization on earth. This is the place to get your fix, not the place to get cured  You don't go to the bar to get off the sauce if you know what I mean...



I came here for for more sauce, silly me


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

Blowncrewcab said:


> You couldnt be more correct. I once had 1 chainsaw, Stock, Now I have 7 and cant leave any of them alone. Sure is expensive for just killing time on the net



just the therapy I came for, I feel better already


----------



## cowroy (Jan 29, 2015)

Let me just tell ya'll, Blowcrewcab owns his avatar name!! I rode with him to Terry's one time and when he stepped on that thing thing....... [emoji33] I could not believe the power it had for a street vehicle. First time I ever thought an LS engine was a good engine [emoji23]. 

I'm still around man. You still living in the same place? Working same place?


----------



## c5rulz (Jan 29, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> I came here for for more sauce, silly me
> View attachment 399183




Will that keep up your Monkeyed saw?


----------



## c5rulz (Jan 29, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> well Scott took my saw away, sumptin bout my stumps




Yeh, those stumps are where farmer's and road crews got their technique.


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 29, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> I came here for for more sauce, silly me
> View attachment 399183


I gotta get me one of those...
How bigga tree can it handle?


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

c5rulz said:


> Will that keep up your Monkeyed saw?



I am faster with the monkeyed saw at this point


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> I gotta get me one of those...
> How bigga tree can it handle?



well, I can say without doubt that I never backed into a tree I couldn't uproot


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 29, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> I came here for for more sauce, silly me
> View attachment 399183


2650 or 2800?


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 29, 2015)

SuperMike 288 with finger ports


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

komatsuvarna said:


> 2650 or 2800?



I don't recall, I only ran it a little and the computer had issues so I could not cut. Guy is willing to sell to me or pay me to run it. I like the independence I have right now so undecided. I honestly think the boom is too long for in the woods.

$60thou one year to pay no interest is tempting. Seller and I have worked together for years.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 29, 2015)




----------



## SCTREEGUY (Jan 29, 2015)

Angry


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2015)

Very nice Scott....


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 29, 2015)

she died her hair orange ?


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 29, 2015)

Very nice, looks like you got all the bugs worked out!


----------



## EvilRoySlade (Jan 29, 2015)

A few questions. 
1 Is this possible with a 357xp?
2 I could not hear 4 stroking nor a limited tach. Am I that ignorant?
3 Was the chain chatter from large raker depth or the crazy speed that it held in the wood?

Wow


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 30, 2015)

1 I have one of those to do also , so we shall see
2 sounds lean to me too, but that's where it cuts best
3 low rakers

that's a 20" bar .325 rs, still has a limited coil, no epoxy in the intake
intake 157
transfer 118
exhaust 153
cut base .060
everything else is the same as the 2153


----------



## Blowncrewcab (Jan 30, 2015)

cowroy said:


> Let me just tell ya'll, Blowcrewcab owns his avatar name!! I rode with him to Terry's one time and when he stepped on that thing thing....... [emoji33] I could not believe the power it had for a street vehicle. First time I ever thought an LS engine was a good engine [emoji23].
> 
> I'm still around man. You still living in the same place? Working same place?


 

Yep, Still here. Celebrated my 25th year at my job last friday  Still living in Blaine. Also, I was not a fan of the LS motor either until I started modding this truck, now I see the Potential  and it is Good


----------



## c5rulz (Jan 30, 2015)

Great Job Scott!

FWIW, I made a few test cuts in that big ol oak crotch at the shop. It is the hardest @#*%  thing you have ever seen. Lmbrman made one 5 second cut with my 550XPG, handed it back to me saying, "No Thanks"  and that was cutting through a deformed part that was only 5" thick and hardly buried like in the video.


----------



## cowroy (Jan 30, 2015)

Scott, that thing looks like a Tasmanian Devil with handles! Nice build.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2015)

Looks and sounds great, Scott.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

I got to the shop a little late on Friday morning to find a pumpkin patch at the back door.
all 346's, ne and oe, one I just did, one has small transfers, one has fingers, one has a cylinder that not round.
the 2153 will have epoxy in the intake.
maybe by the end of next weak, if all goes well, I will have some comparison vids.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)




----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 31, 2015)

That's a lot of comp...

Tell Chris not to hurt himself with it...


----------



## c5rulz (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 399575
> 
> 
> I got to the shop a little late on Friday morning to find a pumpkin patch at the back door.
> ...



Where did you find the real old guy Scott that can't bend over?


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

compression ratio is 10.956-1
trapped compression ratio is 7.8-1


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> compression ratio is 10.956-1
> trapped compression ratio is 7.8-1



Where did the other 3.156 compressions escape to??

Will we have to go look for them???
I'll go saddle the horses...


----------



## redfin (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> trapped compression ratio is 7.8-1



Would you care to explain this Scott?


----------



## hotshot (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm definitely not Scott, but it escapes from the last place it can, right out of the exhaust port.

Trapped CR is when the piston just closes the exhaust port top edge on its way up & thus traps the charge down for "doing its business".

The other number is using the volume from the bottom dead to top dead centers piston travel positions for his calcs.

Great runner there Scott!


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 31, 2015)

c5rulz said:


> Where did you find the real old guy Scott that can't bend over?



why do you keep asking guys to bend over?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 31, 2015)

Wow.......just wow. 




Great thread.


----------



## c5rulz (Jan 31, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> why do you keep asking guys to bend over?




Your the only guy I ask to bend over Dave, because I am right behind you.


----------



## Stihl Livin (Jan 31, 2015)

You two need to get a room.


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 31, 2015)

sorry I am used to a longer bar


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

hotshot said:


> I'm definitely not Scott, but it escapes from the last place it can, right out of the exhaust port.
> 
> Trapped CR is when the piston just closes the exhaust port top edge on its way up & thus traps the charge down for "doing its business".
> 
> ...



you are correct sir
and we don't have to worry about detonation until we get over 9-1 trapped


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> you are correct sir
> and we don't have to worry about detonation until we get over 9-1 trapped


About how much psi would that be on this saw?


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

it would appear that my jonsered has bigger nuts then daves husky, just saying


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> About how much psi would that be on this saw?



9-1 would be far more then the crank could handle.
I built a 440 head saw that had over 350lbs comp, killed the crank in just a few minutes


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 31, 2015)

Head saw, as in removable head, that's awesome


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> 9-1 would be far more then the crank could handle.
> I built a 440 head saw that had over 350lbs comp, killed the crank in just a few minutes


Have you tried removable inserts in the head, 
Different compression, just pop the head off and put in desired insert.

I have a custom set like this on my sled, works great.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Head saw, as in removable head, that's awesome



yes


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)




----------



## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)

the 371xp was introduced in 1996, I did this one in 96-97, I learned a lot from this cylinder.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 31, 2015)

If Rollform racing was still around my 066 would probably look like that, very interesting stuff thanks for sharing


----------



## lmbrman (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 399775



those look like nuts of stihl


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 31, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 399784
> 
> 
> the 371xp was introduced in 1996, I did this one in 96-97, I learned a lot from this cylinder.



Still putting fingers in them quad ports Scott?


----------



## Hedgerow (Jan 31, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Still putting fingers in them quad ports Scott?


Fingers... 
Doubtful...
Factory done put the boost ports in there for us...


----------



## Moparmyway (Feb 2, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> View attachment 399784
> 
> 
> the 371xp was introduced in 1996, I did this one in 96-97, I learned a lot from this cylinder.


It doesn't look like any squish work was done ........... quads with fingers .......... HUGE transfers

My head is spinning, I am trying to get what you are giving, but this reminds me of an episode of the twilight zone.................. unless it didn't work...... when you say you learned a lot, was it from this thing running like a champ, or a turd ?

Throw me some more scraps off your table please !!!!


----------



## tree monkey (Feb 2, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Still putting fingers in them quad ports Scott?


one of the 346's that i'm testing has them


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## tree monkey (Feb 2, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> It doesn't look like any squish work was done ........... quads with fingers .......... HUGE transfers
> 
> My head is spinning, I am trying to get what you are giving, but this reminds me of an episode of the twilight zone.................. unless it didn't work...... when you say you learned a lot, was it from this thing running like a champ, or a turd ?
> 
> Throw me some more scraps off your table please !!!!



this was a r&d cylinder before I figured out how to cut squish. it was fast, but no torque.
I would not call it a fail, it was a learning tool.


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## EvilRoySlade (Feb 4, 2015)

On a 357xp, I've heard people say with the high crankcase compression they are high RPM power but lack torque. 
Could this be a good thing when hogging out transfers? If the pressure is there, why not get more volume through. When you're done maybe the velocity would end up near 346/2153 transfer velocity. This is why you stuff a crank in the first place, right?
Correct me if I'm wrong, just thoughts leaking out.


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## redfin (Feb 4, 2015)

Great reading here. Thanks to all.


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## old-cat (Feb 4, 2015)

EvilRoySlade said:


> On a 357xp, I've heard people say with the high crankcase compression they are high RPM power but lack torque.
> Could this be a good thing when hogging out transfers? If the pressure is there, why not get more volume through. When you're done maybe the velocity would end up near 346/2153 transfer velocity. This is why you stuff a crank in the first place, right?
> Correct me if I'm wrong, just thoughts leaking out.


I'm working on a 357 now with two different approaches to performance enhancement. My first try was with the squish band cut and very moderate porting. It does NOT lack torque! In a 10.6 sec. cut stock, it is now 8.8 sec. Next I will do a pop-up approach then a timed cut then more radical porting.
Stay tuned.


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## tree monkey (Feb 4, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Feb 4, 2015)

stock saw and mod saw. 18" bars, 72d-25rs, wood is Norway pine. going to do a comparison vid in oak using 24" 3/8.


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## tpope (Feb 4, 2015)

Wow


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## drf255 (Feb 7, 2015)

TM,

Sorry for the ignorance but I'm not understanding your timing numbers.

150ish exhaust opening with 118 transfers?

Doesn't that put BD at -32*?

I'm sure I'm not following your numbers correctly.

So, I'm currently working on a 026 PRO 44.7 mm.

My transfer roofs are angled upwards. I'm at 102/118/76 on the timing numbers.

Should I weld up the transfer tops with some 4043 and grind them flat in your opinion?

No boost ports on this one. Would you add fingers or bridges?

Thanks.


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## lovetheoutdoors (Feb 7, 2015)

Awesome thread awesome build and awesome videos! Thanks for the time and knowledge shared on this.


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## mdavlee (Feb 7, 2015)

drf255 said:


> TM,
> 
> Sorry for the ignorance but I'm not understanding your timing numbers.
> 
> ...


Those are durations. These are the port openings
103
121


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## tree monkey (Feb 7, 2015)

drf255 said:


> TM,
> 
> Sorry for the ignorance but I'm not understanding your timing numbers.
> 
> ...


my port numbers are in duration, the number of degrees the port is open. 150* exhaust dur is the same as 105* from tdc. 150* intake dur is the same as 75* from bdc. 118* transfer is 121* from tdc. blow down is 16*


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## drf255 (Feb 7, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## tree monkey (Jul 7, 2015)

time for an update







I made a lite bar. 18" 325 total super . only comes in .058. put it in the hammer mill and regrooved it to .050 to use 20jp.
going to do a 20" the same.

I've been using the saw pretty steady the last couple of weeks, felling and liming red and white oak. it's not a ported 440, but it will cut with a stock 440. so far i'm very happy with the saw. seems to be easy of fuel as well.


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## CR888 (Jul 7, 2015)

Nice light bars, l have always wanted to do that to a total.


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## sunfish (Jul 7, 2015)

Ported Bars? Cool!


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## RiverRat2 (Jul 8, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> time for an update
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hey Scott, what are you using to fill the lightend area, Epoxy?


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## HuskStihl (Jul 8, 2015)

Knowing monkeys, I'm betting JB weld


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## blsnelling (Jul 8, 2015)

Very creative there Scott. What are you using to re-groove the rails?


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## SawTroll (Jul 8, 2015)

CR888 said:


> Nice light bars, l have always wanted to do that to a total.



Get a Tsumura Light and Tough then, the Totals are Tsumura bars.


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## tree monkey (Jul 8, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Very creative there Scott. What are you using to re-groove the rails?



bar shop


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## tree monkey (Jul 8, 2015)

http://bid.hansenandyoung.com/view-...auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F5840%2F%3Fpage%3D13

barshop


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## tree monkey (Jul 8, 2015)

RiverRat2 said:


> Hey Scott, what are you using to fill the lightend area, Epoxy?





HuskStihl said:


> Knowing monkeys, I'm betting JB weld



monkey poo


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## CR888 (Jul 8, 2015)

SawTroll said:


> Get a Tsumura Light and Tough then, the Totals are Tsumura bars.


Yeah but Totals are cheaper and the 'light n tough' is tough but not exactly light. Treemonkey has not skimped on removing the wieght, for the same reason l would start with a Total as the blank. l know they would not be as sturdy, but certainly light. Its a compromise Tsumura won't make, but an enthusiast will.


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## tree monkey (Jul 9, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jul 9, 2015)




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## tree monkey (Jul 9, 2015)

pics of our barshop


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## Hedgerow (Jul 10, 2015)

Circa 1963..

You got more cool old stuff up there than anywhere else I've been.


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## J.Walker (Jul 10, 2015)

Thanks Scott for building that new 2153c for me this year. It's a very strong runner foursure.


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## thechainsawguy (Jul 10, 2015)

CR888 said:


> Yeah but Totals are cheaper and the 'light n tough' is tough but not exactly light. Treemonkey has not skimped on removing the wieght, for the same reason l would start with a Total as the blank. l know they would not be as sturdy, but certainly light. Its a compromise Tsumura won't make, but an enthusiast will.



What is the weight of your lightened bar, then I can compare it with a Tsumura light bar, the Tsumura lights are lighter than an Oregon pro light laminate bar.

Dave.


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## SawTroll (Jul 10, 2015)

thechainsawguy said:


> What is the weight of your lightened bar, then I can compare it with a Tsumura light bar, the Tsumura lights are lighter than an Oregon pro light laminate bar.
> 
> Dave.



I believe that is true with 12t nose bars in .325 - but that isn't what I want in .325, and wish Tsumura would make 10t ones with a "normal" dl count, for such bars. 

As it is, I prefere the laminated Norwegian made Husky bars, for such applications - they are lighter than the Oregon made ones, with the same configuration.

It isn't because they are stellar, but they are light - and cheap enough to change out as needed.

The reason I do it is lack of better options for 50cc saws.....


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## thechainsawguy (Jul 10, 2015)

SawTroll said:


> I believe that is true with 12t nose bars in .325 - but that isn't what I want in .325, and wish Tsumura wound make 10t ones with a "normal" dl count, for such bars.
> 
> As it is, I prefere the laminated Norwegian made Husky bars, for such applications - they are lighter than the Oregon made ones, with the same configuration.
> 
> ...



I could have made up some bars in different configurations, I just need to know what people want or need. Tsumura has laminate lightweight bars as well as a bunch of others that I have not ordered made as of yet. If the MS200 T saw was still on top, I would have liked to make a light bar for them, as mainly it is the pros who will pay more for a premium bar.

Dave


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## tree monkey (Jul 10, 2015)

thechainsawguy said:


> What is the weight of your lightened bar, then I can compare it with a Tsumura light bar, the Tsumura lights are lighter than an Oregon pro light laminate bar.
> 
> Dave.



I don't have a scale, but will see what I can do.


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## tree monkey (Jul 10, 2015)

SawTroll said:


> I believe that is true with 12t nose bars in .325 - but that isn't what I want in .325, and wish Tsumura would make 10t ones with a "normal" dl count, for such bars.
> 
> As it is, I prefere the laminated Norwegian made Husky bars, for such applications - they are lighter than the Oregon made ones, with the same configuration.
> 
> ...



this is the slim narrow nose bar


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## CR888 (Jul 10, 2015)

thechainsawguy said:


> What is the weight of your lightened bar, then I can compare it with a Tsumura light bar, the Tsumura lights are lighter than an Oregon pro light laminate bar.
> 
> Dave.


l can only give you weights of sugi light & stihl lights (thats what l have in light bars) as it was treemonkey that modified the total in this thread. I too would like too see it on scales before/after modification.


thechainsawguy said:


> I could have made up some bars in different configurations, I just need to know what people want or need. Tsumura has laminate lightweight bars as well as a bunch of others that I have not ordered made as of yet. If the MS200 T saw was still on top, I would have liked to make a light bar for them, as mainly it is the pros who will pay more for a premium bar.
> 
> Dave


I have 201/200t and polesaw with stihl lights in 10" 12" & 14"and they are great l even put them on echo/makita top handles keeping the saws light and well balanced. I wish stihl made the 10" in 050 as well as 043. At present you can only get 12"+ in 050. AS has 'pro saw mentality' and many seek top of the range stuff, but l would love to see more of Tsumuras laminated bars both light and standard. I have a 12" Total on a ms200t that's laminated and its been good quality. The main reason this thread interests me is l have 4 total bars that have earned their keep but still in serviceable condition that would be good candidates for this modd. I think if you ordered some T/H Tsumura light bars members would buy them if they were not to dear and a sensible option. Sugi make light pro bars in 3005 mount but the ones l have seen are over $100! I think laminated light T/H bars could be sold cheaper than solids and made lighter.


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## thechainsawguy (Jul 11, 2015)

SawTroll said:


> I believe that is true with 12t nose bars in .325 - but that isn't what I want in .325, and wish Tsumura would make 10t ones with a "normal" dl count, for such bars.



I see that Tsumura has a 10 tooth 325 tip slim ZK light bar that would may be to your liking, but would that be a popular bar? Sometimes it is like carving bars, carvers all have their own preferences and there is no one basic bar, but a variety used.

Dave.


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## SawTroll (Jul 11, 2015)

thechainsawguy said:


> I see that Tsumura has a 10 tooth 325 tip slim ZK light bar that would may be to your liking, but would that be a popular bar? Sometimes it is like carving bars, carvers all have their own preferences and there is no one basic bar, but a variety used.
> 
> Dave.



What is wanted obviously varies a lot, but .325 bars that are based on 11t nose 3/8" bars makes no sense to me. It may be otherwise to others though, nothing is cast in stone!


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## tree monkey (Jul 17, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Circa 1963..
> 
> You got more cool old stuff up there than anywhere else I've been.


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## tree monkey (Jul 17, 2015)

bar weight new 1 lbs-14.9 oz
after 1 lbs-7.7 oz
7.2 oz lighter


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## Derf (Aug 13, 2015)

Hey Scott, can you explain to me why you raised the floor on the intake to reduce intake duration? My mind is trying to understand why. 
You have a bigger carb, flowing more air, larger transfers, larger exhaust, and you are decreasing the intake size/duration.


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## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2015)

Derf said:


> Hey Scott, can you explain to me why you raised the floor on the intake to reduce intake duration? My mind is trying to understand why.
> You have a bigger carb, flowing more air, larger transfers, larger exhaust, and you are decreasing the intake size/duration.


You kind of said it in your question what the answer is.


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## Derf (Aug 13, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> You kind of said it in your question what the answer is.



Yes, but why is reducing intake duration/flow better here when the whole rest of tuning is geared toward moving more air?


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## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2015)

There's only so much it can swallow on each intake duration. If you have extra it's just wasting it or hurting fuel economy.


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## Derf (Aug 13, 2015)

Why bother with the hda199 carb then if the saw can't "swallow" or move more air? Why reduce the stock intake port size to less than what it could do with a choked up exhaust, little transfers and the zama carb? 
Sorry for being thick but I'm not getting it


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## Hedgerow (Aug 13, 2015)

Derf said:


> Why bother with the hda199 carb then if the saw can't "swallow" or move more air? Why reduce the stock intake port size to less than what it could do with a choked up exhaust, little transfers and the zama carb?
> Sorry for being thick but I'm not getting it


Time/area
If you go with more area, you can reduce time.
And on the intake, improve overall "trapped" volume, and get better and more efficient "push" through the crank case and up around the transfers.


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## Derf (Aug 13, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Time/area
> If you go with more area, you can reduce time.
> And on the intake, improve overall "trapped" volume, and get better and more efficient "push" through the crank case and up around the transfers.



Ok, so it is a wider port so it doesn't need to be as tall? I think I can wrap my head around that... Regarding trapped volume, you're saying that a smaller port has faster transfer velocity? I thought that was more a factor for transfers than intake. But if that is what you mean, I understand the concept.


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## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2015)

The goal is to fill as quick as possible. The longer the intake duration after a point it will slow throttle response. Usually over 175° is when you start to notice it more.


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## blsnelling (Aug 13, 2015)

We're taking about less than 155 here though IIRC.


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## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> We're taking about less than 155 here though IIRC.


True. It seems some saws like shorter intakes than others.


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## Derf (Aug 13, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> numbers. I almost forgot the numbers
> intake 144
> exhaust 152
> transfer 110
> ...



I'm not sure if those are degrees or durations though.
Really wish Scott will chime in to educate us.


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## huskihl (Aug 13, 2015)

Derf said:


> I'm not sure if those are degrees or durations though.
> Really wish Scott will chime in to educate us.


Those are durations. Opening ° are I=72°. X=104°. T=125°


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## Hedgerow (Aug 13, 2015)

Derf said:


> Ok, so it is a wider port so it doesn't need to be as tall? I think I can wrap my head around that... Regarding trapped volume, you're saying that a smaller port has faster transfer velocity? I thought that was more a factor for transfers than intake. But if that is what you mean, I understand the concept.


From the time an intake closes, to the time it hits BDC, it's pushing the fuel charge up and through the transfers.
Every saw design responds differently to transfer height, but most enjoy a little extra crank case compression.
Especially a good stout work saw.


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## tree monkey (Aug 13, 2015)

the area of the port window should not be larger then the area of the boot.
the cylinder was lowered a lot, allowing me to raise the roof of the intake a lot, which gave me too much port area. so I raised the flour to correct port area.
this traps more fuel charge in the case


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## drf255 (Aug 14, 2015)

Question TM,

How do you measure your intake floor target?

It seems difficult to get a line you want without multiple assembly and disassembly. There's no ring you can put in there to measure. 

I'm thinking a sharpie on the piston at the correct degree, then a lineup afterwards. 

It just seems difficult. 

Also, on the saws that you didn't raise the intake roof or floor on, did you notice a big difference vs. the ones you raised?


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## Hedgerow (Aug 14, 2015)

One must measure the #'s, but use the force when trying to get all you can out of a saw..
Or use monkey poo..
That works too..


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## Derf (Aug 15, 2015)

I think I get it now. Stock, with gasket, the saw has 146 degrees intake duration. When you toss the gasket, it climbs to 150 intake duration. After cutting the cylinder base the intake duration increases to 158 degrees. To get that number back closer to stock you carved out a lot of the roof of the intake port. This reduced the intake duration back to 144 degrees, but the intake port was very tall. The net effect of filling in the port is shutting down the intake port sooner so that there is a longer period of compression as the piston is traveling downward, and therefore greater base pressure that works in favor of maintaining a faster transfer velocity.

Scott, your final numbers (144 in/152 ex/ 110 xfer/20 blowdown) are very close to stock port timing with a gasket (146 in / 150 ex/ 110 xfer/21 blowdown).


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## blsnelling (Aug 15, 2015)

The roof of the intake has nothing to do with port timing, only area.


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## Derf (Aug 15, 2015)

Yes, I didn't phrase that right. The cylinder moves down with each iterative step to boost compression (removing gasket, cutting cylinder). That increases intake duration. To reduce the intake duration, he raised the floor so the intake opened later and closed sooner. But, he then had a smaller intake opening which reduced flow. I think Scott said he raised the roof of the intake to increase flow (time area), but he could also have widened the intake, or done both.

Im now wondering why Husqvarna set the exhaust so low (@105 degrees from factory)?


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## tree monkey (Aug 15, 2015)

you got it

I didn't widen the intake so I could do more to the piston to get better flow to the transfers
need to plan it out before ya start


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## blsnelling (Aug 16, 2015)

Derf said:


> Im now wondering why Husqvarna set the exhaust so low (@105 degrees from factory)?


I've tried closer to 100 on the exhaust of a 346. While out ran ok, it wasn't as good as 105-107. It actually made fewer RPMs, not more. Every model is unique.


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## shorthunter (Sep 7, 2015)

Had the chance to run this saw the other day. 

Scott built one hell of a work saw


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## Hedgerow (Sep 7, 2015)

shorthunter said:


> Had the chance to run this saw the other day.
> 
> Scott built one hell of a work saw


He sure does. 
But don't tell him that..
He'll get a big head.


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## redfin (Nov 25, 2015)

This thread was linked from another today so i read through it again. Thanks Scott. 

I am mainly wondering how critical the ex opening between the port and the muffler is? This is a critical event, are there any guide numbers regarding how big the muffler opening should be or is it make it as big as possible?


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## redfin (Nov 25, 2015)

I probably specified, im asking about the opening between the exit of rhe jug and the muffler.


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## Derf (Nov 25, 2015)

The opening on the muffler is slightly smaller than the gasket. You can open the muffler up to the size of the gasket, but if you go bigger than that its a lot of work. The muffler is just a thin sheet metal shell up till you get to the size of the gasket, pretty easy to dremel the opening larger... after you get larger than the gasket it's reinforced steel, and its a lot more work to open up.


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## tree monkey (Nov 26, 2015)

redfin said:


> This thread was linked from another today so i read through it again. Thanks Scott.
> 
> I am mainly wondering how critical the ex opening between the port and the muffler is? This is a critical event, are there any guide numbers regarding how big the muffler opening should be or is it make it as big as possible?



I make it as big as possible within reason. need a sealing surface and wall thickness.


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## tree monkey (Feb 3, 2016)

ttt


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## mortalitool (Mar 7, 2018)

GOOD THREAD!


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## cus_deluxe (Mar 7, 2018)

Yep, sure is, too bad scotts not allowed here any more apparently.


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## cus_deluxe (Mar 7, 2018)

Not that he cares anyway, most likely, lol.


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## J.Walker (Mar 7, 2018)

Good thread, I really like the one he did for me.


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## pioneerguy600 (Mar 8, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> Yep, sure is, too bad scotts not allowed here any more apparently.


Scott can come here any time he likes, he was not banned but did ask to have his account cancelled, its still here and he did come back here and start another account under another site name.


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## cus_deluxe (Mar 8, 2018)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Scott can come here any time he likes, he was not banned but did ask to have his account cancelled, its still here and he did come back here and start another account under another site name.


Yeah i forgot about his alter ego...lol.


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## huskihl (Mar 8, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> Yeah i forgot about his alter ego...lol.


Ol' Crabby Cooter


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## BGE541 (Jan 3, 2020)

Bump for some great work and a lot of info.


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## BGE541 (Jan 3, 2020)

Can we put this in the chainsaw sticky forum? Lots of good info here


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## BGE541 (Jan 4, 2020)

BGE541 said:


> Can we put this in the chainsaw sticky forum? Lots of good info here


@pioneerguy600


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## Derf (Jan 4, 2020)

Why would this be a sticky? The original poster isn’t even active on the site anymore.


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## old guy (Jan 4, 2020)

Cuz it's got good information, duh!


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## BGE541 (Jan 4, 2020)

Derf said:


> Why would this be a sticky? The original poster isn’t even active on the site anymore.


Because their is more credible, practical information in this thread then 99% of what is posted these days on AS...


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## cuinrearview (Jan 4, 2020)

Derf said:


> Why would this be a sticky? The original poster isn’t even active on the site anymore.


You could just throw some nekkid girl pictures on the thread.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 4, 2020)

cuinrearview said:


> You could just throw some nekkid girl pictures on the thread.


Careful what you ask for.


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## Derf (Jan 4, 2020)

CUInRearView said:


> I’m a troll



This frenching guy! Do you just troll people for fun? Go back to the other site with the kool kids.


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## cuinrearview (Jan 4, 2020)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Careful what you ask for.


Believe me I know


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 4, 2020)

cuinrearview said:


> Believe me I know


Me to . I see you are a troll now


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