# Costs of Selective harvesting and Clear cutting



## donout (Feb 28, 2012)

Hi, im just dropping by for a school debate and I just need some info on the cost deference of selective and clear cutting. So, what would be the difference of costs to clear cut and entire 5 acre of forests for its pine compared to selectively cutting 5 acres of forest for its pine. For selectively cutting i mean having a boundary and cutting down all the pine inside of it. I know this is a extremly bland question but im only looking for estimates. Any ones idea is welcome, the more the better.

THANKS IN ADVANCE


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## bore_pig (Feb 28, 2012)

So you want to use second-hand info off an internet forum (a good one, i'll give you that!) as fact in a debate? Let me tell you a problem with america kid. The problem is exactly what you are doing. Reading about something new to you on the internet, then passing off what you read as fact. One question for you, why are you taking the easy way out? You are basically asking us to do the work for you.


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## madhatte (Feb 28, 2012)

Best answer I can offer: it depends.


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## slowp (Feb 28, 2012)

You'll have to convert U.S dollars into Canadian dollars. What is the exchange rate right now? I still have a loonie and a $2.00 bill.


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## lfnh (Feb 28, 2012)

donout said:


> Hi, im just dropping by for a school debate and I just need some info on the cost deference of selective and clear cutting. So, what would be the difference of costs to clear cut and entire 5 acre of forests for its pine compared to selectively cutting 5 acres of forest for its pine. *For selectively cutting i mean having a boundary and cutting down all the pine inside of it.* I know this is a extremly bland question but im only looking for estimates. Any ones idea is welcome, the more the better.
> 
> THANKS IN ADVANCE



if you define "Selective Cutting" as you have above,
then what is your definition of "Clear Cutting" ?

inquiring minds want to know.


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## lmbrman (Feb 28, 2012)

:msp_thumbdn:


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## donout (Feb 28, 2012)

bore_pig said:


> So you want to use second-hand info off an internet forum (a good one, i'll give you that!) as fact in a debate? Let me tell you a problem with america kid. The problem is exactly what you are doing. Reading about something new to you on the internet, then passing off what you read as fact. One question for you, why are you taking the easy way out? You are basically asking us to do the work for you.



This is the problem with america? A kid working on a school project asking the only people with experience he has contact with for an estimate? Its an estimate, thats what im looking for. Your going to far to assume ill use it as a cold hard fact. I wont, ill pass it out as an estimated cost. How did you come to the reasoning that i would instantly belive these to accurate figures with the little information i gave in my question? This also isnt the easy way out. This was almost a last resort. Ive been trying to research the cost dereference in clear cutting and selective harvesting for a couple days. I couldn't find any costs. So i found this site. And from a quick look it had some people experienced with logging. So i figured hell, these people will have a better idea then some people on yahoo answers. Thats why i posted here. Also, your doing almost no work at all. How can this be viewed as asking you to do all of the work? This part of the debate is in the rebutal. If you know what that is then you'll understand that this information will only last 10 seconds. So, before you start to assume that im some idiot comming to a random internet forum asking a bunch of random people to do my work then think again. As i mentioned I have only come here to ask of this because time is running out and i need as much information as possible.

As for anyone else going to answer im sorry that my question is so poorly worded and broad.


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## donout (Feb 28, 2012)

lfnh said:


> if you define "Selective Cutting" as you have above,
> then what is your definition of "Clear Cutting" ?
> 
> inquiring minds want to know.



I mean the average clear cut. Going in and cutting down every tree in the area. Including ones that are unwanted (those are usually sold to a pulp mill)


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## lmbrman (Feb 28, 2012)

donout said:


> As for anyone else going to answer im sorry that my question is so poorly worded and broad.



There is no way I can answer that question for the very reason you state- poorly worded and broad. Site index, species, soils, COUNTRY I could go on -

Why is time running out??

I never learned how to negative rep yet -


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## donout (Feb 28, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> There is no way I can answer that question for the very reason you state- poorly worded and broad. Site index, species, soils, COUNTRY I could go on -
> 
> Why is time running out??
> 
> I never learned how to negative rep yet -



I guess this a lost cause...
Im running out of time because it turns out my debate partner can not only not read english, but cant right her own agruments. Also i found this out yesterday and the debate is tomorrow. Anyway i guess thanks to any one who bothered to answer. I understand i worded the question in the worst way possible. anyway DONOUT OUT


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## lmbrman (Feb 28, 2012)

donout said:


> I mean the average clear cut. Going in and cutting down every tree in the area. Including ones that are unwanted (those are usually sold to a pulp mill)



the trees around here going to a pulp mill are wanted and paid for quite well

some contracts here call for removal of UNMERCHANTABLE product if that is what you mean- those trees stay on the ground


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## RandyMac (Feb 28, 2012)

There are a thousand variables, we need fairly exact perimeters.


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## Slamm (Feb 28, 2012)

Well on the same road as we are working there is a clear cut going on with a lot of pine getting clear cut. That said, I have been told they have 1 million dollars worth of equipment there. The last clear cut job that I saw around here was about the same deal a million dollars worth of equipment.

That said, myself and several other select cut loggers, have at or less than $100,000 worth of equipment, and half the size of crews.


Just my simple observation.

Sam


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## bitzer (Feb 28, 2012)

I think we should arrange a "log off" where this can be tested with the finest equipment and somehow be paid for by the government. Say maybe with a research grant. Beer and snoose will be provided at lunchtime and any other break times as well as the end of the day. We will need to document this all for science.


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## slowp (Feb 29, 2012)

We must do it on all types of terrain. 

What spacing for the "selective" cut shall we use? Or shall we go by basal area only? 

I hear that Orygun loggers don't get paid as much as Warshington loggers. Shall we factor that in? 

What kind of weather? Will the trucks have to chain up? Will a pushme pullme be needed? 

See, you just can't ask for costs of harvest in a general way. 

OP, why don't you phone a mill or logging outfit in your area?


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## redprospector (Feb 29, 2012)

slowp said:


> We must do it on all types of terrain.
> 
> What spacing for the "selective" cut shall we use? Or shall we go by basal area only?
> 
> ...



No! Please, don't use basal area!
I hate that. I can get my prism out and check an area before I call for an inspection, and when they get there my basal area is too high (sometimes low, but not often). I can contest it, and when the next forester gets there they get a different number. The only way basal area works is if everyone stands in the exact same spot, has the same squint in there eye, and holds their mouths just right.

Andy


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## wyk (Feb 29, 2012)

donout said:


> Hi, im just dropping by for a school debate and I just need some info on the cost deference of selective and clear cutting. So, what would be the difference of costs to clear cut and entire 5 acre of forests for its pine compared to selectively cutting 5 acres of forest for its pine. For selectively cutting i mean having a boundary and cutting down all the pine inside of it. I know this is a extremly bland question but im only looking for estimates. Any ones idea is welcome, the more the better.
> 
> THANKS IN ADVANCE



So, are you trying to ask the difference between:

Selective harvesting or
Selection harvesting or
Thinning or
Patch Clearing or
Reserve clearing or
Maybe pick up a forestry book and spend some time with someone with a degree in forestry to help you understand what question you need to ask?
Or just leave this forum and then go and debate a point you, and likely the other party, knows little to nothing about purely as an exercise?


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## madhatte (Feb 29, 2012)

slowp said:


> What spacing for the "selective" cut shall we use? Or shall we go by basal area only?



What about group selection & retention for an average basal area over a large area? Prisms don't help there; you have to be able to visualize the residual stand while marking. Oh, and considering skid trails and landings on the fly, as well as logical lays for individual trees. Brings the cost of the harvest down to have the layout done with a bit of forethought.


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## coastalfaller (Mar 1, 2012)

Generally speaking, from a BC perspective and having done both. Clear cutting costs less and is a far safer and more productive method of logging, especially in the falling phase. If you have more pointed questions....fire away.


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## Humptulips (Mar 1, 2012)

You guys are being downright mean to the poor kid. You don't know the answer so you give him a bunch of lingo he probably doesn't savy anway.
I understand you don't have a good idea what the 5 acres loooks like but give the kid a break and throw out an average range. It's just for arguments sake. He's not mortgaging the family farm to go into business.

I'll throw something out to him. I haven't a clue on price but on a cable logging show you're probably going to get about three to four times the production clearcutting that you will with a thin.
In other words if you could get 12 loads a day clearcutting expect 3 maybe 4 thinning.

Not a clue on ground based and of course moving into and out of that mythical 5 acres would kill the profit but I'd argue that would come close to being true.


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## wyk (Mar 1, 2012)

coastalfaller said:


> Generally speaking, from a BC perspective and having done both. Clear cutting costs less and is a far safer and more productive method of logging, especially in the falling phase. If you have more pointed questions....fire away.



Ah man. And we were having such fun with him...


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## Gologit (Mar 1, 2012)

wyk said:


> Ah man. And we were having such fun with him...



Yup, but it was just because he didn't know how to ask the questions necessary to get the answers he needed. Not his fault...he's just a kid.

Now we've given him the impression that all loggers are pricks. We're not...but he probably thinks that way.


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## hammerlogging (Mar 1, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Yup, but it was just because he didn't know how to ask the questions necessary to get the answers he needed. Not his fault...he's just a kid.
> 
> Now we've given him the impression that all loggers are pricks. We're not...but he probably thinks that way.



Pricks till you get to know us, then good folks, loggers.

What comes to mind to me, if he is still interested is that selective logging means so many different things, all in all there are so many different variables.

Here, selective logging generally means talking all the value and leaving the small stuff and low grade. Poor forestry, yes, but it is the cheapest logging for the main conventional logging systems out there where volume/acre is less of a factor-- like cable dozers or skidders after a certain threshold is met. They would lose money comparatively on a clearcut. But, if they were to do a selective improvement cut with that system, they would lose even more money. See? Not such an easy question to answer.

For some reason I think the poster is implying some sort of release thinning where the stand is improved. SOme loggers on flat ground are set up for this, for expample they would end up with a higher $/ton rate if they tried to cut diameters above there system capability. then you get to yarders, where volume per acre is more critical due to set up time, well, someone has to be able to sell that junk too (pulpwood). Even aged stand or uneven aged stand?

Start with the parameters involved in logging costs for different systems, slope, volume per acre, stem size, harvest sytem and you will see that sometimes you get one answer, sometimes the other.


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## Oldtimer (Mar 1, 2012)

A clear cut will "cost" more to do, you're doing more work.
A Selective cut will cost less.

Now, a clearcut will generally be easier, and the timber buyer might pay more because he's getting more volume and the effort is a little less.

You needed to define "Cost". Does it apply to the cost of running the operations, or the money it returns?


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## tramp bushler (Mar 1, 2012)

I think Donut tramped . 

Too bad . He should have stuck around , lot to learn . . 

If you've never experienced how a business is run . One minute you got money and the next u got none ..


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## lmbrman (Mar 1, 2012)

I was not even convinced he was looking for financial costs - figured we could have been cited in some new plan to save 'X'

ps: perhaps environmental costs-


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 1, 2012)

As I student I understand the broad question but as a forestry student your question was too broad and too in depth for the day before a debate! All you can do with that question is say clearcuts cost less than selective because selective has so many different parameters; just like everyone has pointed out. It's all about the system the logger chooses to use, what the company will let him use, and how effiecient his individual crew is.

And yes loggers and foresters are aresehats.... to sensitive virgin ears! LMFAO


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## tbow388 (Mar 1, 2012)

bore_pig said:


> So you want to use second-hand info off an internet forum (a good one, i'll give you that!) as fact in a debate? Let me tell you a problem with america kid. The problem is exactly what you are doing. Reading about something new to you on the internet, then passing off what you read as fact. One question for you, why are you taking the easy way out? You are basically asking us to do the work for you.




Dude, the OP smacked the crap outa you with his reply. That should be in the WTF thread.

You're gunna get some rep for that.

Donout

The southern US is full of pine logging. Do a internet search and try and get ahold of one of the companies.

If you have no luck, let me know and I will call a timber buyer friend of mine.


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## bitzer (Mar 1, 2012)

Selective cutting here means timber stand improvement. Some damn nice timber is left when I'm done, but I also take a lot of nice timber out. Seed trees are left and species are managed accordingly. I also end up cutting some crap trees and a lot of pulp trees depending on the job. When I'm done there is some high grade nice looking timber left, some wildlife trees, and hopefully several stages of the next generations of timber. I plan to be back on these same jobs in the next 10-20 years and I try to do my part as well as ####ty for production as that may sound. I'll brush out crap trees and swing the saw timber away from promising next generation if I can. Sometimes the emphasis on the leave trees can put me into some ####ty situations though that the forester should have anticipated. Like that domino I posted a week or two back in the falling pics thread. The smaller red oak was not marked, but both trees were leaning heavily at each other. Sometimes you just have to do what you've got to do. Logging is all about time. The money is not really the issue. Its the time it takes to do it is the deceiding factor. When I've got a couple of acres that nearly every tree is marked I damn near do clear cut and lay them all in lead. Production kicks ass then. Here it all depends on the density per acre, basically how long it takes to fill my bunk when the timber is spread out as opposed to stacked up like cord wood.


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