# need help with DRT ascending setup (yo Moss!)



## Plasmech (Dec 13, 2009)

Figured the experts in ascenders are chillin' in the recreational land. Yesterday I did what was going to be about as close to a rec. climb as I'll probably ever do. Ascended DRT into a huge beach to change out a tire-swing rope. My setup was as follows: fixed end of the rope was scaffold-knotted to a triple locking fixed 'biner, obviously. Running end ran through a 5-coil prusik which, in addition to a tending pulley, was 'binered to my rope bridge as well. I had a right foot CMI foot ascender and both left and right and ascenders. What I intended to do was pull up with my hands and push with my foot and then with my right hand, while still holding on with my left, tend the slack in the friction hitch so I would not lose any ground. Well this worked, sort of, but man it was *extremely* difficult, used a ton of energy, and was just plain ugly. Half the time I lost half as much ground as I gained. The friction hitch 'biner kept getting all buggered up and cross loaded which really pissed me off, and the prusik just turned into a bundled mess. Obviously I need something else in this system like a different tending pulley. Does anybody have advice and hopefully pictures of a proper DRT hand/foot ascending system? Thank!

Just think, what would Yo Yo Ma and/or Brian Boitano do in this situation?


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## moss (Dec 13, 2009)

What a wicked web of gear complexity you've woven!

I'd go the other direction, figure out the most simple gear configuration to ascend DRT and then add items to improve as needed.

*1. The hitch*
Are you using a prussik hitch? If so dump it and go with one of the commonly used varieties: VT, Knut, Distel, etc. I use a 4 wrap XT, shown here.

Use an HMS/pear or similar shaped biner inverted. I like knotted eyes on the split-tail, they grab the biner better and slide around less than spliced eyes, everyone has opinions and preferences. Tied eyes are good to start with so you can dial in your split tail length.

*2. Slack tending pulley*
This is not used for normal ascent, it is used primarily for returning from a limb walk or other situations in the crown when you need to take slack out of the system one-handed. Again, there are many different ways to configure but this is the basic principle. Don't try to use the pulley to take slack out while ascending.

*3. Play in the system*
You want as little play in the system as possible. You bridge introduces a certain amount of play, the biner/hitch attachment introduces play. Minimize connectors, length of split tail etc. as much as possible.
*
4. Ascent away from the trunk*
To get started off the ground you'll need to hand feed the tail through the foot ascender for a few pulls. If you've minimized play in the system hopefully you can climb with both hands on the rope above the hitch, or one above and one below. While you're ascending the hitch should just ride on the rope. Your foot ascender takes out the slack. When you sit back to rest or when you reach a limb the hitch should grab. Sometimes you need to flick the hitch up to seat it. The hitch will not grab if you don't allow it to take the load. For instance if you take part of the load with the foot ascender when you sit back you'll end up with a knee in your face and you'll be yelling "My hitch won't grab!"

*5. Ascent with trunk contact (not body-thrusting)*
One foot on the trunk the foot with the CMI or Pantin ascender on the tail. Climb. Works great, much easier than body thrusting. Again, use your foot ascender to take slack out of the system as you climb.
*
6. Alternate use of handled ascender*
Put a handled ascender on the tail below the hitch, put a footloop (double or single) on the handled ascender. You can make a footloop with 8mm rope. Tune the length of the footloop so that when you move the ascender up as high as you can under the hitch, you're in a good position to stand up on the foot loops. You don't want the footloops so high that you're laying on your back as you try to stand on them, it will burn your arms out too fast. Smaller steps are more efficient. You want to keep your body as upright as is practical with this technique. Climbing against the trunk take one foot out of a doubled footloop and put it on the trunk, the other remains on the footloop.

Hope that helps.
-moss


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## Plasmech (Dec 13, 2009)

Moss,

First off, thanks for taking the time, seriously. 

OK I was at first using a VT hitch HOWEVER, while playing around close to the ground I had several situations where the climb-line went through that thing like crap through a goose. It was textbook tied too. Apparently it's a bit finicky or something. It scared be enough that I switched to the tried and true 5-coil Prusik. 

Why do you suggest dumping the simple Prusik hitch? Thanks.

I see what you mean by ditching the slack tender....it's only hurting in this situation. 

I got out Gerry Beranek's Working Climber DVD, series one, and re-watched the part where he goes over DRT ascending. The chapter called "Easy Up" really answered all my questions. It's just a matter of putting a re-direct pulley in the right place as well as getting the entire friction hitch above you at arms length so that you are working your hands and feet all underneath it, that way slack comes out of the equation completely. Do you happen to have said DVD's? Would like to discuss that Prusik and VT more.





moss said:


> What a wicked web of gear complexity you've woven!
> 
> I'd go the other direction, figure out the most simple gear configuration to ascend DRT and then add items to improve as needed.
> 
> ...


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## moss (Dec 14, 2009)

I was wondering when you said the prussik wasn't holding if you meant a prussik hitch or if you were referring to a specific climbing hitch. Ya, VT is finicky, like I said, take a look at some of the other hitches, Distel, Knut, XT etc. you might find you like them better. Prussik is a useful hitch but not as your main climbing hitch. Once a Prussik is loaded it tends to bind up, it usually takes two hands to free it it up. You want a climbing hitch to grab when you load it and release when you unload it so the rope will tail through it easily.

Also, I'm not saying get rid of the slack tending pulley, I'm saying that while you're ascending it's not doing anything, it's used when you're up in the tree.

This is not to be confused with setting up a pulley to advance your hitch automatically, that's a whole 'nother animal, more useful for advancing a Blake's Hitch.

You're probably going to reach a point where you're going to want the Hitchclimber pulley, it solves a lot of problems when you're using an eye-to-eye split tail on a floating bridge harness.

I don't have the DVD but I understand what Gerry is describing. Definitely a valid and widely accepted approach. I like my hitch low and I pull above it. In this video you can see my DRT climbing style
-moss



Plasmech said:


> Moss,
> 
> First off, thanks for taking the time, seriously.
> 
> ...


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## ClimbinArbor (Dec 14, 2009)

i wouldnt start out with a vt hitch, for the reasons mentioned, especially slippage lol.

dont forget body thrusting, or since your using a micro pully, hand over hand.

try to put a line in where the rope is pulling you back towards the tree. pull on the running end of the rope while thrusting your hips forward, yes like that... set your not at ground level, pull up 5 or 10 feet then reset your knot. repeat as needed. this requires alot of upper arm strength, especially to hold the rope while pulling out slack. it may not always be applicable when you need to skywalk, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.


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## Plasmech (Dec 14, 2009)

What do you think of the Schwabisch Prusik as opposed to the French Prusik? I saw your pic of the XT , what exactly is different from the VT?




moss said:


> I was wondering when you said the prussik wasn't holding if you meant a prussik hitch or if you were referring to a specific climbing hitch. Ya, VT is finicky, like I said, take a look at some of the other hitches, Distel, Knut, XT etc. you might find you like them better. Prussik is a useful hitch but not as your main climbing hitch. Once a Prussik is loaded it tends to bind up, it usually takes two hands to free it it up. You want a climbing hitch to grab when you load it and release when you unload it so the rope will tail through it easily.
> 
> Also, I'm not saying get rid of the slack tending pulley, I'm saying that while you're ascending it's not doing anything, it's used when you're up in the tree.
> 
> ...


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## moss (Dec 14, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> What do you think of the Schwabisch Prusik as opposed to the French Prusik? I saw your pic of the XT , what exactly is different from the VT?



See the links in the next post below for the answers to your first question. 

On an XT the tails cross just below the coils, reverse direction and then braid (examine the photos I posted earlier in the thread, you'll see the difference). On a VT the braid starts just below the coils. The cross below the coils on an XT retains the form of the hitch better during loading and unloading cycles, the VT is a "looser" or less structured hitch IMHO. 
-moss


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## moss (Dec 14, 2009)

Try these:


Hitch info addendum

Son of a Hitch


-moss


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## Plasmech (Dec 14, 2009)

moss said:


> This article addendum covers the "French Prusik" and the Schwabisch:
> http://www.#############/pdf/Apr07-cc.pdf
> 
> This article is a comprehensive overview of friction hitches:
> ...



Links not working....


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## moss (Dec 14, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Links not working....



It's fixed, I bypassed the censors, retry the links above
-moss


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## moss (Dec 15, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Links working now.
> 
> I like your two legged foot lock using the pantin.



Thanks, I use it SRT as well.
-moss


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## moss (Dec 15, 2009)

FYI here's how you footlock with one foot on the tail. I combine this with the Pantin so both feet load the tail side-by-side. To climb move the Pantin foot up first, then move the "footlock" foot up next to the Pantin foot, stand up and repeat. When you move the foot with the loop on it up, tip your toe upwards, when you lock it tip your toe slightly downward, pretty much the same foot movement you have to do on a Pantin anyway. You could do it with two Pantins but you'd be a. wasting money, b. can't get your feet side-by-side to stand on the tail.

This is for the right foot, reverse it to your left foot if your ascender is on your right foot







Lock





Release (moving foot up next to Pantin)





Normal climbing situation the weight of the tail below your foot self tends the rope when you lift your foot up to advance.
-moss


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## lync (Dec 15, 2009)

2 tips if using a foot ascender on right foot place the sole of your left foot on top of your right foots shoe laces, press down with both feet at the same time, keeping them under your arse. try to use a friction saver if possibile. 
corey


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## Plasmech (Dec 15, 2009)

Some really good info in this thread. Thanks guys!


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## moss (Dec 16, 2009)

lync said:


> 2 tips if using a foot ascender on right foot place the sole of your left foot on top of your right foots shoe laces, press down with both feet at the same time, keeping them under your arse. try to use a friction saver if possibile.
> corey



Agreed. the reason I use a single loop footlock for the other foot is so my left foot (and knee) isn't twisted when I load the tail. I'm an over 50 geezer so little things like that make a difference in the long run reducing pain.
-moss


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## Plasmech (Dec 16, 2009)

Huh? You're over 50? You look like you're in your 30's. You still look like a "dude". 



moss said:


> Agreed. the reason I use a single loop footlock for the other foot is so my left foot (and knee) isn't twisted when I load the tail. I'm an over 50 geezer so little things like that make a difference in the long run reducing pain.
> -moss


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## moss (Dec 16, 2009)

That'll make my wife laugh. Tree climbing is great physical and mental exercise, it definitely keeps me sharp and feeling younger than I'm supposed to be feeling for my age. 
-moss


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## Plasmech (Dec 16, 2009)

moss said:


> That'll make my wife laugh. Tree climbing is great physical and mental exercise, it definitely keeps me sharp and feeling younger than I'm supposed to be feeling for my age.
> -moss



I could have sworn you were a bro, a homey, a dude, a schmo...


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## ClimbinArbor (Dec 17, 2009)

he is.
just an over 50 bro, homey, dude lol.

definently get a friction saver. i use the leather horseshoe, its great for keeping rope clean, and it has a bit more friction than ring and rings.

the schwabishk(sp) is a nice easy hitch to work with. i use one and ive never had any problems out of it. it does get tight with a good load, but all you have to do is bend the knot once or twice and its good again.

also, you guys that are pantin and foot locking DdRT... doesnt the tail being secured below your waist restrict your movement when humping up? seems like more trouble than its worth to me. unless your in space, in which case i wouldnt be caught dead without one lol. sometimes ill put on a pantin and not use it on the ascent, but later in the canopy.


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## moss (Dec 17, 2009)

ClimbinArbor said:


> also, you guys that are pantin and foot locking DdRT... doesnt the tail being secured below your waist restrict your movement when humping up? seems like more trouble than its worth to me. unless your in space, in which case i wouldnt be caught dead without one lol. sometimes ill put on a pantin and not use it on the ascent, but later in the canopy.



I save hump'n for short moves in the tree, going up the trunk from the ground one foot on the Pantin the other foot on trunk, you can go as fast as your heart and lungs will let you.
-moss


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## davej (Dec 17, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> ... It scared me enough that I switched to the tried and true 5-coil Prusik.



Ok, I'm curious. Is every asymmetrical Prusik considered a Schwabisch?


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## moss (Dec 17, 2009)

davej said:


> Ok, I'm curious. Is every asymmetrical Prusik considered a Schwabisch?



You could describe a Schwabisch as an asymmetrical prusik (ok I'll give in and spell prusik the right way). Can't say that the rule you stated above would always be true. If the tails exited the hitch at the top it would be an asymmetrical prusik but it wouldn't be a Schwabisch. Right?
-moss


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## Plasmech (Dec 17, 2009)

moss said:


> You could describe a Schwabisch as an asymmetrical prusik (ok I'll give in and spell prusik the right way). Can't say that the rule you stated above would always be true. If the tails exited the hitch at the top it would be an asymmetrical prusik but it wouldn't be a Schwabisch. Right?
> -moss



So what advantage does the "Swab" have over the Frenchie? I have a knot book that lists these knots as follows:

French Prusik: beginner climber's knot level 1

Swab: beginner climber's knot level 2

Distel: beginner climber knot level 3

Interesting.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 18, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> So what advantage does the "Swab" have over the Frenchie? I have a knot book that lists these knots as follows:
> 
> French Prusik: beginner climber's knot level 1
> 
> ...



Here's a link to an interesting research report about friction hitches and stress testing from the UK:


*Ropes and Friction Hitches used in Tree Climbing Operations*

by Paolo Bavaresco, _Treevolution_

*Abstract: *
This report presents the results of a research project carried out into ropes and friction hitches commonly in use in tree climbing operations in the United Kingdom. The ropes and friction hitches in question are used by arborists as part of roped systems for ascending into trees, positioning themselves within trees, and descending from trees.

The background to the research project is described in some detail, followed by a discussion of the results and conclusions based on the findings. The data arising from the various tests are presented in full in tables at the end of the report and in summary within the body of the report.


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## davej (Dec 18, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Here's a link to an interesting research report about friction hitches and stress testing from the UK:
> 
> 
> *Ropes and Friction Hitches used in Tree Climbing Operations*



Very interesting, but in my feeble opinion it seems to miss the selection criteria that most climbers would apply. Do I care how many thousands of Lbs/Kg my hitch would support or do I care that it breaks and slides up easily and grabs super-reliably?


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## davej (Dec 18, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> French Prusik: beginner climber's knot level 1



That seems a bit wacked to me. A "beginner" knot would be one that isn't finicky wrt grabbing.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 18, 2009)

davej said:


> Very interesting, but in my feeble opinion it seems to miss the selection criteria that most climbers would apply. *Do I care how many thousands of Lbs/Kg my hitch would support *or do I care that it breaks and slides up easily and grabs super-reliably?



*Nah, of course not *... just an interesting compendium of various hitches to pick from ... IMO there's only one criterion to pick one hitch over another ... does it work for me!!! I've tried 'em all and picked the one that works!!!


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## moss (Dec 19, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> So what advantage does the "Swab" have over the Frenchie? I have a knot book that lists these knots as follows:
> 
> French Prusik: beginner climber's knot level 1
> 
> ...



I think it's all meaningless. There are so many variables. Try out different hitches, see which one works best for you. Agree with Single-Jack. 
-moss


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## Plasmech (Dec 19, 2009)

moss said:


> I think it's all meaningless. There are so many variables. Try out different hitches, see which one works best for you. Agree with Single-Jack.
> -moss



I was using a French on bee-line with 5 loops yesterday and she was a ##### to advance up the climb line. Going to try a Swab next climb.


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