# Mastermind Meets The MS661 Again



## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

Three on the bench, and two more in route......yes the MS661C is a hot saw these days. 




I started tearing one of these saws down.....taking pictures. Then I thought.....hell man, you've done this a couple of times already. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/mastermind-meets-the-ms661-c-m.248081/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-chitty-avatar-ms661-donate-to-win.265297/

So I'll just let you fellers look over the pics in these two threads. 

What I will tell you is this.......I'll be keeping one of these saws stock for a little while. That way I have one to compare to. The other two will be going under the knife. 

Now, I gotta get some machine work done.......then I'll post a few pics of what I'm doing. 

Love, Peace, And Bacon Grease.


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## redfin (Jan 10, 2015)

You changing anything in the two on your bench compared to before?


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## tnlogger (Jan 10, 2015)

How do I get a hold of u to get a price on porting a 461 for me? I log full time and want to try a ported saw to cut timber with


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## cgraham1 (Jan 10, 2015)

tnlogger said:


> How do I get a hold of u to get a price on porting a 461 for me? I log full time and want to try a ported saw to cut timber with


Just remember, once you run a ported saw, you'll never be able to run a stock saw again. 

If you want to set up an appointment, just start a conversation. You better do it soon, he's very backed up...
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/conversations/add?to=Mastermind


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

redfin said:


> You changing anything in the two on your bench compared to before?



I don't think I'll change anything. I've been very happy with the gains I've gotten on this model. 



tnlogger said:


> How do I get a hold of u to get a price on porting a 461 for me? I log full time and want to try a ported saw to cut timber with



Just send me a message.


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## tnlogger (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks I don't know how to do anything right on the site.


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## Big_Wood (Jan 10, 2015)

tnlogger said:


> How do I get a hold of u to get a price on porting a 461 for me? I log full time and want to try a ported saw to cut timber with



do you guys seriously have manual falling work still? heck it seems more and more of the land here is being done by machine. they got that new spider buncher thing here now. climbs some crazy grades and is taking down some massive wood. amazing there is still manual falling back east.


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## Gologit (Jan 10, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> do you guys seriously have manual falling work still? heck it seems more and more of the land here is being done by machine. they got that new spider buncher thing here now. climbs some crazy grades and is taking down some massive wood. amazing there is still manual falling back east.


 Not everybody has the bucks to buy the latest fad in feller bunchers.


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

Here in Tennessee we's too poor to buy a new truck.......let alone some fancy equipments.


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## tnlogger (Jan 10, 2015)

Good friend of mine has a cutter 425 timbco. There great but a lot of the steeper junk still hjnting as to be hand cut and like he said I can't justify the payment for the hours i wouldn't put on it.


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## CR888 (Jan 10, 2015)

ls the 661 engine a quad port design? Do you think stihl has made a runner with this one as the ms660 was a bit of a let down to those upgrading from an 066.


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

Yep, quad ported.....

Think of as a big MS461.


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## cgraham1 (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Yep, quad ported.....
> 
> Think of as a big MS461.


Sooo... I wonder how the 661 compares to a 390xp?


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## Big_Wood (Jan 10, 2015)

cgraham1 said:


> Sooo... I wonder how the 661 compares to a 390xp?



during the first bit of my falling course there most were running 390's. the 660's just looked ****'n sad and all were stock. the 661 has to be alot better to compete with a 390. my 385 seemed to smoke them all though


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 10, 2015)

tnlogger said:


> Thanks I don't know how to do anything right on the site.


Click on the word Mastermind under the chimp. That will open a page where it says "start a conversation" click that, and you can have a private chat with Randy.


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## cgraham1 (Jan 10, 2015)

Duane(Pa) said:


> Click on the word Mastermind under the chimp. That will open a page where it says "start a conversation" click that, and you can have a private chat with Randy.


Or just click on the link I posted... 


cgraham1 said:


> If you want to set up an appointment, just start a conversation. You better do it soon, he's very backed up...
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/conversations/add?to=Mastermind


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

cgraham1 said:


> Sooo... I wonder how the 661 compares to a 390xp?



That's a good question......

I've not got a 390XP here right now either.


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

Josh sent me a message......we've got him scheduled for a saw in Sept.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 10, 2015)

cgraham1 said:


> Or just click on the link I posted...


Whoops


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Josh sent me a message......we've got him scheduled for a saw in Sept.


2015, or 2016


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## cgraham1 (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> That's a good question......
> 
> I've not got a 390XP here right now either.


The reason I ask is... I just bought Steven's 2188!


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## Four Paws (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> That's a good question......
> 
> I've not got a 390XP here right now either.



Better get a couple. Maybe Terry could borrow you a stocker?



cgraham1 said:


> The reason I ask is... I just bought Steven's 2188!



Should have had Steven send it over for a little testing.


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

cgraham1 said:


> The reason I ask is... I just bought Steven's 2188!



You're gonna like that beast. 

I'll tell you guys, properly ported.......the 390XP is a tough saw to beat in big wood. 

Stock though.......they ain't too impressive. 

Shane is right......the 385 will put the hurt on the 390 when they are both stock.


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## pantelis (Jan 10, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> do you guys seriously have manual falling work still? heck it seems more and more of the land here is being done by machine. they got that new spider buncher thing here now. climbs some crazy grades and is taking down some massive wood. amazing there is still manual falling back east.


How much for the spiderman 1.000.000?


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## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

Welp, I got the squish bands cut on the two I'm porting......callin it a night.....


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## Big_Wood (Jan 10, 2015)

pantelis said:


> How much for the spiderman 1.000.000?



i'm not involved in any numbers. i just see these things climbing the hills. was going up deer bay main a few weeks ago and they had a sign at the beginning of that block saying radio for clearance. i VHF'd the head contractor and got through. figured i'd see tree's coming down manually up the mountain but to my surprise i saw one of those spider leg buncher things. man they do steep ground. it must have been doing at least 60-70% when i saw it the few times i drove by.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Jan 10, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> do you guys seriously have manual falling work still? heck it seems more and more of the land here is being done by machine. they got that new spider buncher thing here now. climbs some crazy grades and is taking down some massive wood. amazing there is still manual falling back east.



They manually took 16" up of my land in Ohio. Farmer up north where I am at now they came in a did manually. Everything I have seen here has been by hand. 

Except for clearing and thinning the pines. That was wild and neat to watch.


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## pantelis (Jan 10, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm not involved in any numbers. i just see these things climbing the hills. was going up deer bay main a few weeks ago and they had a sign at the beginning of that block saying radio for clearance. i VHF'd the head contractor and got through. figured i'd see tree's coming down manually up the mountain but to my surprise i saw one of those spider leg buncher things. man they do steep ground. it must have been doing at least 60-70% when i saw it the few times i drove by.


Yes are fantastic machines the electricity company have some of theese here , are about 1 milion, take care to dont go for service


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## redfin (Jan 10, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i saw one of those spider leg buncher things. man they do steep ground. it must have been doing at least 60-70% when i saw it the few times i drove by.



Daaaaaaang that's some turf to be climbing. I get the fellar part of the name but wheres the buncher come from?


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## Big_Wood (Jan 10, 2015)

redfin said:


> Daaaaaaang that's some turf to be climbing. I get the fellar part of the name but wheres the buncher come from?



it bunches wood cleanly. limbed, cut to length, and stacked. all in one go. they are really efficient units. i measureed a stump that was over 40" cut but feller buncher. was on level ground though. not sure if they can do that big on a 60-70% grade. there will be a day that the manual production tree faller is unheard of. just not sure when that will be.


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## Gologit (Jan 11, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> ... there will be a day that the manual production tree faller is unheard of. just not sure when that will be.



Day after tomorrow.


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## tnlogger (Jan 11, 2015)

When all poor loggers get rich until then there will be timber cutters! Hehe


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## wigglesworth (Jan 11, 2015)

Around here, I'd say it's 75% manual, 25% machine felled.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 11, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Not everybody has the bucks to buy the latest fad in feller bunchers.





westcoaster90 said:


> do you guys seriously have manual falling work still? heck it seems more and more of the land here is being done by machine. they got that new spider buncher thing here now. climbs some crazy grades and is taking down some massive wood. amazing there is still manual falling back east.



that, and believe it or not there is still some whoppers in places. even tho some could be multi cut with a machine, the massive top weight would easily overload the carrier.


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## komatsuvarna (Jan 11, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Around here, I'd say it's 75% manual, 25% machine felled.



Bout the same here. I know a couple of crews that have machine cutters, but majority still uses chainsaws.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 11, 2015)

this has become hydro ax country........not many guys even can hand fall around here.......good for me


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## Philip Wheelock (Jan 11, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Not everybody has the bucks to buy the latest fad in feller bunchers.


OK, but do loggers find use for ported saws? Looking at this video of Patrick Lacey on Afognak Island; seems like the saw has more juice than stock:


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I do a bunch of ported saw for production use.......so yeah.


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## Big_Wood (Jan 11, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Day after tomorrow.



Yer right, there will always be heli. As long as the butchers can't get to a remote spot those area's are secure for hand fallers. My buddy is a bull bucker for aggressive timber falling and says they are doing a lot of flatter stuff just cause it's so far away from any roads. And no way to get the feller bunched into it. Who invented the feller bunched anyways? I'd like to slap him across the face


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## Gologit (Jan 11, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> OK, but do loggers find use for ported saws?



Find use for them? Yes. Yes, they do.


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## MustangMike (Jan 11, 2015)

Here in the North East they do not do much clear cutting, and those big machines would be too destructive and not efficient enough to operate in those situations. I think there will always be a need for a man with a saw.

A well ported saw will definitely enable you to increase your productivity.


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Trying something outside the box.....


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## KG441c (Jan 11, 2015)

Wow!! More turbulence??


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## luckydad (Jan 11, 2015)

Whew that stuffs high dollars sir !!


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Yeah.....it ain't a damn bit cheap Chris.

No Keith, I want to lower the intake duration. 

This jug is one I had from the first 661 I ported. I didn't lower the exhaust port,and it just didn't make the power I was looking for. In order to be able to further cut the squish, I need to raise the floor of the intake so it's not crazy low.


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## MustangMike (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm lost here Randy. At first I thought U were putting in golfball type dimples in the air intake, which I could understand trying, but then I see all the Aluminum putty and I am lost.


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Look at the post just above yours Mike.


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## MustangMike (Jan 11, 2015)

Sorry, I posted before UR post showed up, OK, I get it.

But hey, golfball dimples may not be a bad idea? They say they can make a ball go further!


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## KG441c (Jan 11, 2015)

The devcon stands up to heat and wear pretty good Randy? Ive used it to install a outboard lower end nose bullet and its held for years


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm not sure I'd use it on a customers unit. But this is just a R&D thing.


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## Four Paws (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Trying something outside the box.....
> 
> View attachment 393715
> 
> ...




It should work fine on the intake, Randy. I have been wanting to raise the floor of the exhaust port on a couple cylinders. I wish the saws I am working on had longer piston skirts. I would like to drop the jug lower but cannot as it will freeport at TDC. I didn't know if anything would stand up to the heat on the exhaust port other than welding it up. But, it would have to be bored round again, would have no plating and may gall. Pretty nice those Stihl pistons have such long skirts.


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## KG441c (Jan 11, 2015)

What about patching a transfer or exhaust port if went too deep ?


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## Four Paws (Jan 11, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> But hey, golfball dimples may not be a bad idea? They say they can make a ball go further!



Look at the intake boots. They already exist.


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I've built a few saws that freeport at TDC. One was over .060 over the exhaust. It didn't seem to hurt anything. If it was more, I'd be worried about polluting the crankcase.....


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## Ron660 (Jan 11, 2015)

Any plans on sending it to Chad for dyno testing?


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I told Chad to let me know when he's ready. I can send a ported one, and a stocker.


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## Deets066 (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I told Chad to let me know when he's ready. I can send a ported one, and a stocker.


 Is he ready yet!


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Hell, I've got two more on the way......these are gonna be a common sight.


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## Four Paws (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I've built a few saws that freeport at TDC. One was over .060 over the exhaust. It didn't seem to hurt anything. If it was more, I'd be worried about polluting the crankcase.....



.060" is significant. Glad to hear you didn't experience any negative effects. What kind of runtime did you have on it? Ever pull it back down to inspect? Would imagine that it would keep the exhaust port clean. Wondering if it would help to actually increase intake velocity (as charge escapes out the exhaust) and help fill the crankcase with more charge than normal.


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Neal Murphy has that saw.......it's been 3 -4 years since I built it. 

It was my entry in the MS460 build off. 

I ran the **** out of it........

I did have to tear it down once........I swapped a damaged case half after a year or so. It was nice and clean throughout.


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## MustangMike (Jan 11, 2015)

Is that the one U won with?


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Yes sir, it sure was.


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## Deets066 (Jan 11, 2015)

So freeporting isn't too terrible then?


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Not at the bottom of the piston. On the sides......that's worse.


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## spencerpaving (Jan 11, 2015)

After a having 661 apart it almost seems the way stihl set this thing up they didn't want people modding them..almost limited to what you can do..I'm looking forward to your idea randy..I was thinking of trying something different other than welding but haven't found the right material yet


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 11, 2015)




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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

spencerpaving said:


> After a having 661 apart it almost seems the way stihl set this thing up they didn't want people modding them..almost limited to what you can do..I'm looking forward to your idea randy..I was thinking of trying something different other than welding but haven't found the right material yet



I'd hate to have to epoxy the intake on all these 661s. I'm gonna predict that when I raise the intake floor to 78 - 80 degrees.....this engine will come alive. 

I'd like to see 101/118/78 in this short stroke motor.


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## spencerpaving (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'd hate to have to epoxy the intake on all these 661s. I'm gonna predict that when I raise the intake floor to 78 - 80 degrees.....this engine will come alive.
> 
> I'd like to see 101/118/78 in this short stroke motor.


I think you are right about getting the intake under control it would be one hell of a monster! My idea was some sort of intake stuffer made of plastic with a lip to the outside that the intake boot would go over to help hold it place...and glued or silicone to the bottom of the intake tract...let the flaming begin!


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

No flames from me. I'm all ears when it comes to this sort of stuff. 

After running your 056/066 monster.....I knew that you had a good grasp of what it takes to make a serious work saw. 

Wigglesworth and myself have spent hundreds of hours on the phone brainstorming these two stroke machines. What we've concluded is that almost everything we've read over the years was bullshat. Too many people read stuff that relates to sleds and bikes, then they think it will work on a saw engine. They seem to overlook the fact that a saw engine has a shorter stroke, a smaller impulse driven carb, and no tuned pipe. That changes everything......


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Here's something I think makes a huge difference.......seeing back in the uppers so they can be blended in properly.....


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

The Devcon has hardened enough to see what we have.....I glad to see no honeycomb hiding behind the tape.


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## redfin (Jan 11, 2015)

Do you have a tig available Randy?


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I've got a beautiful lasagna coming outta the oven. 

Be back in a while.


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

redfin said:


> Do you have a tig available Randy?



No John......but welding right at the plating would likely make it peel. At least I think it might.


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## CR888 (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No flames from me. I'm all ears when it comes to this sort of stuff.
> 
> After running your 056/066 monster.....I knew that you had a good grasp of what it takes to make a serious work saw.
> 
> Wigglesworth and myself have spent hundreds of hours on the phone brainstorming these two stroke machines. What we've concluded is that almost everything we've read over the years was bullshat. Too many people read stuff that relates to sleds and bikes, then they think it will work on a saw engine. They seem to overlook the fact that a saw engine has a shorter stroke, a smaller impulse driven carb, and no tuned pipe. That changes everything......


This is a really good post!
Well l have a new 661 on my bucket list but l think its about third inline after a 390xp and ms150t. Until then my M/Mind ms660 will have to do. I would love to know whether some of the good stuff like spring av, dawgs, clutch cover with captive nuts ect can be put on a 660 from a 661. I love the torque of muh porded sucsuxty.


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Not a dang thing interchanges.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 11, 2015)

What's the jug on the left, in the outside the box post, bottom pic?


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

That's a 390XP jug that another guy ruined by widening the intake too much.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 11, 2015)

Ebay will be ablaze with epoxied saws....


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## bryanr2 (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No flames from me. I'm all ears when it comes to this sort of stuff.
> 
> After running your 056/066 monster.....I knew that you had a good grasp of what it takes to make a serious work saw.
> 
> *Wigglesworth and myself have spent hundreds of hours on the phone brainstorming these two stroke machines. What we've concluded is that almost everything we've read over the years was bullshat. Too many people read stuff that relates to sleds and bikes, then they think it will work on a saw engine. They seem to overlook the fact that a saw engine has a shorter stroke, a smaller impulse driven carb, and no tuned pipe. That changes everything......*


*
*


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

Oh no Steven.......you are my Hero.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 11, 2015)

I still say it's the chess player in you. Cause & effect, yin yang etc. I cant tape a freakin box shut, so two strokes are PFM to me.


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## bryanr2 (Jan 11, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Oh no Steven.......you are my Hero.




 Ya know those of us that dont drink need a "smiley" similar to the "cheers" one . 

something like....


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I put my hand there......no kidding.


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## Duane(Pa) (Jan 11, 2015)

I envy anyone that can spell La-zon-ya Lasagna!  

That's the stuff aint it??


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## Mastermind (Jan 11, 2015)

I have speel cheek.


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## Magnum783 (Jan 11, 2015)

This thread is amazing can't wait to see where it goes.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 11, 2015)

I stihl don't like them........


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## KG441c (Jan 12, 2015)

Im ready to see the dyno!


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## MustangMike (Jan 12, 2015)

I just want to see it cut!


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## Mastermind (Jan 12, 2015)




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## bryanr2 (Jan 12, 2015)

dont know what Im looking at but looks good.


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 12, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> View attachment 394076
> 
> 
> View attachment 394077
> ...



So are those three intakes different sizes to compare results ?.


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## Mastermind (Jan 12, 2015)

Stihlman441 said:


> So are those three intakes different sizes to compare results ?.



No Andrew, one is with unfinished Devcon, the next is after finishing, then next is a stock port.

The factory port ends up at 85* after machine work. That's not crazy low on a 90cc saw, but I would like to be able to cut more from the squish to get the compression a little higher. At 85*, that's as far as I will lower the jug.

Even then I can't raise the transfers quite as high as I'd like to.

So, I'm at 102/122/85 on the two jugs without epoxy.

The jug with epoxy in the intake is at 100/120/80.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 12, 2015)

Interesting experiment. If you ever get in the mood to go slumming, look at the transfer port inserts in the newer Poulans. They use what looks like some sort of thermoset plastic to turn the open transfers into closed transfers. The rings don't quite touch it. 

I don't know how that would help really, as you'd need some way to mold an insert, and some feature to retain it. Just food for thought.


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## Mastermind (Jan 12, 2015)

I've been "slumming" before Chris. 

Believe it or not, I've even ported a few of those little Pooolawns.


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## Fire8 (Jan 12, 2015)

Over my head


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## fordf150 (Jan 12, 2015)

If raising the floor gives you the results your looking for what is your plan of action On the remaining cylinders? Epoxy? Figure out an insert type piece?


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## Mastermind (Jan 12, 2015)

That is a good question......

I really don't want to use epoxy on every MS661 I do. I can't see anything else working though. 

The 661 turn out really strong without raising the intake.......but I feel the need to test a theory here.


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## RiverRat2 (Jan 12, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I don't think I'll change anything. I've been very happy with the gains I've gotten on this model.
> Just send me a message.



40% I'd bet!!!! isn't that the magic numbah? you pro porters shoot for???


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## fordf150 (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm stupid here so bear with me. 

Does the floor have to be sealed or can you do as I think Chris was suggesting with a insert that stops .010 shy of the skirt? If you can do that I don't think an insert would be all that hard or expensive to have made


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## Mastermind (Jan 12, 2015)

I like the idea of an insert as well. There are a few things that need to be considered though. 

It really couldn't hook into the boot, and be thick enough to be solid.

The insert would have to be glued, or anchored to the floor of the port somehow. If the glue failed.....the engine would eat it. 

3D printing could possibly make the insert, but can thermoset plastics be printed at this time?


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## bryanr2 (Jan 12, 2015)

RiverRat2 said:


> 40% I'd bet!!!! isn't that the magic numbah? you pro porters shoot for???



Some reach, Some attain.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 13, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Not everybody has the bucks to buy the latest fad in feller bunchers.


I'd like to see a FB on a 60* slope ;p


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## Deets066 (Jan 13, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> I'd like to see a FB on a 60* slope ;p


Only if I was uphill from it.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I like the idea of an insert as well. There are a few things that need to be considered though.
> 
> It really couldn't hook into the boot, and be thick enough to be solid.
> 
> ...


current 3D printing can use just about any metal...they are making 1911s out of SS at the moment.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Only if I was uphill from it.


...and w/in reach of your machine....


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## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

If the insert could made from stainless......then it could be very thin.


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## LegDeLimber (Jan 13, 2015)

maybe time for a little milling machine setup?
Taking a touch more out of the intake floor and some sort of counter-bore at the boot side of the intake
to accommodate some manner of a stamped insert.
But without my standing there ,holding a cylinder to roll around and get an accurate actual shape I'm likely to be way, way off with that thought. 

And of course you'd need the tool & die guys to tell ya what geometry could be stamped
and done repeatably. 
Then once you fit something in there, it's going to have secured in a fashion so as not to turn into
rattle/reed and shake itself to point of cracking or slapping metal fragments loose.
Something like 4 or 5 thousandths movement would slowly become a motor killer.

little bitty flecks from the impacts gets you scoring, The stress cracks eventually turn the insert into a large foreign object wedged between some fast spinning guts.
Could be that the mill work would allow a more secure epoxy shape.
get rid of some longer, tapered sections that will be more likely spots to give way eventually.
and then there is that aforementioned, molded insert when you have a place to fit it into.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> If the insert could made from stainless......then it could be very thin.


price would 'only' be $1000/per


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## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Randy I would like to hear you discuss how much you cut from dome/base and where the intake landed afterwards and how you determined which way you wanted to go with the intake number after you were satisfied with the squish setting? And the theory u have in mind? Also can you discuss the affects of a intake when raising and lowering and widening? Thanks


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## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'd hate to have to epoxy the intake on all these 661s. I'm gonna predict that when I raise the intake floor to 78 - 80 degrees.....this engine will come alive.
> 
> I'd like to see 101/118/78 in this short stroke motor.


When you say come alive would that be rpm, torque, or both?


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## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Randy what is your prediction it will make on the dyno?


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 13, 2015)




----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 13, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> current 3D printing can use just about any metal...they are making 1911s out of SS at the moment.


Not with any reasonably affordable machines. 

The one we have here at work can print ABS, and I think perhaps nylon with an additional bed adapter. Nylon might be suitable. 

I think an insert could be retained by drilling a hole in the insert spout, and running a countersunk screw in from the outside. That way the screw could not enter the intake even if it came loose. Maybe the insert could be formed so as to hook over the intake inlet spout? I don't know what the boot looks like, but it probably fits too closely for that. 

Overall a pre-made insert would be a challenge on a port that had been modified, as the shape would have to match very closely. It might be viable on a stock port. Even with a stock port, drawing it would be fun, as it is an obscure shape. I suspect filling it with epoxy and grinding it down would be the best process for low volume mods, but even that is a PITA..


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No Andrew, one is with unfinished Devcon, the next is after finishing, then next is a stock port.
> 
> The factory port ends up at 85* after machine work. That's not crazy low on a 90cc saw, but I would like to be able to cut more from the squish to get the compression a little higher. At 85*, that's as far as I will lower the jug.
> 
> ...





KG441c said:


> Randy what is your prediction it will make on the dyno?


 
I think the stock 661 dyno results will be close to factory specs just like your 461 were. Ported 661, not sure.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Randy I would like to hear you discuss how much you cut from dome/base and where the intake landed afterwards and how you determined which way you wanted to go with the intake number after you were satisfied with the squish setting? And the theory u have in mind? Also can you discuss the affects of a intake when raising and lowering and widening? Thanks



I tend to creep up on my final "recipe" for any new model Keith. This unit is no exception. If you will remember the first MS661 I did, I was very displeased with the measly 15% gain in cut speed I got. After reviewing my notes, and rechecking that first jug, I found that I missed my mark on the exhaust by 2°. I ended up with the exhaust port too high. 

I figured that if going only 2° too high made the saw feel like it needed to be babied thru the cut to keep from losing RPM, then lowering the exhaust port below stock specs would make it have more power, and then it would be a better work saw. 

With that in mind I needed to cut at least .030 from the squish to be able to lower the jug enough to make a real difference in exhaust height. That is where I got the amount I planned to take from the squish band to begin with. 

I like compression......any engine builder will tell you that raising compression increases volumetric efficiency. The closer an engine is to 100% volumetric efficiency the better it will perform across the entire RPM range. By cutting .030 from the squish band, I ended up with 175psi. I really would like to see 200psi. That would mean more from the squish band. 

There was a problem here though. The intake port is at 81° stock. That ain't insanely low.......the MS660 is about in the same place. 

But the 064.......and some of the older flat top 066s......they have a higher intake port. They also make more power. Why is that? 

Case compression.....

Primary compression is what forces the air/fuel mixture around the piston, thru the transfer ports. 

If I cut more from the squish to gain more compression, I will further lower the intake, and lose case compression. 

That's way I would like to be able to decrease intake duration.......and why I'm filling the intake port on this one jug. It all about R&D.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

I knew I would learn something if I could pick your mind alil!! Lol! Thank You. Very interesting and very eager to see what you have came up with. I see the motto, thinkin outside the box now! Is there a set amount in .000s that equals 1°? And also when blending the transfers how does taking too much out of the transfer effect the volumetric efficiency overall and do u look for direction of flow more importantly or both? Thanks


----------



## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Also Randy while Im pondering what you just said, Is it possible to have too much compression pushing the fresh charge in the combustion chamber and colliding with each other for a non efficient effect vs less compression? Thanks


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

Bore size, rod length, and strike will make .000 VS ° different for engine to engine. So the best thing to do is check that with a wheel at the port height you are looking at altering. 

Too much primary compression can slow down the engine due to pumping loses. The same is true with too much cranking compression. This is why race saws, and work saws are so far apart on build style.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Bore size, rod length, and strike will make .000 VS ° different for engine to engine. So the best thing to do is check that with a wheel at the port height you are looking at altering.
> 
> Too much primary compression can slow down the engine due to pumping loses. The same is true with too much cranking compression. This is why race saws, and work saws are so far apart on build style.


So when building a work saw for example, when altering the transfers to create a smooth less turbulent flow to meet in the combustion chamber for maximum efficency is it a balance of transfer port height and shape, width, primary compression and cranking compression?


----------



## old-cat (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> ..any engine builder will tell you that raising compression increases volumetric efficiency.


I'm sorry but from my studies, increased compression increases fuel efficiency (more power from what's there). Volumetric efficiency is stuffing the cylinder with more a/f


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

Randy,
Your approach 
seems so much more complicated then 
. Dollar for dollar, I think one approach is worth more than the other. It's strange that they cost the same, but dont perform the same. 

Holy chit, a quick search on the web has provided me with my new "pot stir" image. I think it will go very well in Mastermind threads.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

old-cat said:


> I'm sorry but from my studies, increased compression increases fuel efficiency (more power from what's there). Volumetric efficiency is stuffing the cylinder with more a/f



True. I really wasn't using the correct terminology.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

Higher compression makes the engine make more power from the fuel that is in the combustion chamber.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> Randy,
> Your approach View attachment 394309
> seems so much more complicated then View attachment 394310
> . Dollar for dollar, I think one approach is worth more than the other. It's strange that they cost the same, but dont perform the same.
> ...




I expect that post to get me 100 "likes" by the end of the day.... get busy with the button to the left on the right side of the screeen fellas.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

KG441c said:


> So when building a work saw for example, when altering the transfers to create a smooth less turbulent flow to meet in the combustion chamber for maximum efficency is it a balance of transfer port height and shape, width, primary compression and cranking compression?



Your might be over thinking this a little.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> Randy,
> Your approach View attachment 394309
> seems so much more complicated then View attachment 394310
> . Dollar for dollar, I think one approach is worth more than the other. It's strange that they cost the same, but dont perform the same.
> ...



You might be stirring deep here. lol


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You might be stirring deep here. lol



Ive made it clear where I stand.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 13, 2015)

I wanna see a pop up lose to a cut squish band..in the worst way


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## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

I can see how some might be afraid to "like" the post. Having had 30 saws ported by the same builder, it's obvious that Im not going anywhere else... so I can state my position.


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## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I wanna see a pop up lose to a cut squish band..in the worst way




I like this avatar much better than the "hood rat" you had last night.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 13, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> I like this avatar much better than the "hood rat" you had last night.



Im a "wood rat"..not a hood rat


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 13, 2015)

Powder mike and daniel son are gonna have those beautiful 064s home soon..im gonna race em with a 8.5cc disadvantage


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## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Im a "wood rat"..not a hood rat



Maybe it was someone else then, I swear I saw a thug as someone's avatar last night... Oh dear, if it wasnt your's I apologize for the confusion.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 13, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Powder mike and daniel son are gonna have those beautiful 064s home soon..*im gonna race em with a 8.5cc disadvantage*


what's your weapon of choice?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 13, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> what's your weapon of choice?



461 .. i hope i lose .. bad


----------



## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Your might be over thinking this a little.


I think what I was trying to ask when altering transfers how important is velocity through them?


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 13, 2015)

This jewel running yet?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 13, 2015)

KG441c said:


> I think what I was trying to ask when altering transfers is how important is velocity through them?



I feel like velocity is very important.......but that's just my gut feeling.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I feel like velocity is very important.......but that's just my gut feeling.


So hogging out the transfers would decrease velocity and crankcase compression?


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## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

UPS just came!!!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 13, 2015)

Will you make me a 661-461 hybrid ,that 661 top looks like will fit my 461 cases


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 13, 2015)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think on the new saws they are paying a lot of attention to the angle the transfers go into the combustion chamber in order to maximize the amount of air/fuel that stays in the chamber and maximize the exhaust being expended.

Almost like the research that GM did to get a 2 Valve pushrod engine to produce the power and reduced emissions comparable to multi valve overhead cam motors.


----------



## singinwoodwackr (Jan 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Not with any reasonably affordable machines.
> 
> The one we have here at work can print ABS, and I think perhaps nylon with an additional bed adapter. Nylon might be suitable.
> 
> ...


yea, not even close to being cost effective...yet. The vid about making the 1911s was still pretty cool to watch. The technology is starting to remind me of Star Trek's 'processors' 

https://blog.solidconcepts.com/evolution-custom-manufacturing/how-its-made-3d-printed-1911-pistol/


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 13, 2015)

hogging out the transfers slows the flow of fuel/ air. higher velocity will lead to a scavenging affect that will continue to pull air/fuel in even after the pressure differential has changed. less is sometimes more in the world of flow.


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 13, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No Andrew, one is with unfinished Devcon, the next is after finishing, then next is a stock port.
> 
> The factory port ends up at 85* after machine work. That's not crazy low on a 90cc saw, but I would like to be able to cut more from the squish to get the compression a little higher. At 85*, that's as far as I will lower the jug.
> 
> ...


 
Randy, I know how to fix that. Put a 660 cylinder on it! 661/660 Hybrid and add bridges between the transfers.....quad port....lol.


----------



## User Name Here (Jan 13, 2015)

Im certainly no expert but i would imagine that would be a step backwards in technology and drop off in power from the stock 661


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## MustangMike (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm sure it is not compatible. Quad, instead of dual, transfers.


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## KG441c (Jan 13, 2015)

Wonder if the 461 crankcase will mate to the 661


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 13, 2015)

User Name Here said:


> Im certainly no expert but i would imagine that would be a step backwards in technology and drop off in power from the stock 661


 I was joking but I'm sure the 660 jug is a lot easier to get the timing numbers right.


----------



## User Name Here (Jan 13, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> I was joking but I'm sure the 660 jug is a lot easier to get the timing numbers right.


I'm picking up what you're putting down. I guess I missed the context. Sorry about that


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 13, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Randy, I know how to fix that. Put a 660 cylinder on it! 661/660 Hybrid and add bridges between the transfers.....quad port....lol.


I did just that


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 13, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I did just that
> [/QU
> I knew it would work!


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jan 14, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_conditioning


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## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_conditioning


Wow!! Alot of information!! Thanks. What I can gather from all that was the smoothest entry into transfers as possible is needed, least restrictive flow characteristics with velocity taken into consideration, and finally an exit toward the right directions in the combustion chamber would be ideal? Figured Id ask Randy about these ideas in my head and Randys statement that He and Wiggs have talked countless hrs about these saws and the chatacteristics that usually apply to longer stroked motors just dont apply here. I tend to believe Randys theory on 87 octane fuel in these short stroke motors vs longer stroked. Im interested to see what he comes up with on this 661 and if succesful just maybe he might share a few of thoso out of the box discoveries that are successful with us. Thats why I joined AS and everyone here has been helpful and I have bugged Randy days upon end with questions and he has always been there to help. Thanks everyone


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## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2015)

Keith, be careful with "too smooth", you need turbulence on the intake. Part of what GM did to achieve dramatic results in a traditional design engine in both performance and reduced emissions was to ensure the air/fuel mix was uniform across the entire combustion chamber. That required some built in turbulence.


----------



## old-cat (Jan 14, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, be careful with "too smooth", you need turbulence on the intake. Part of what GM did to achieve dramatic results in a traditional design engine in both performance and reduced emissions was to ensure the air/fuel mix was uniform across the entire combustion chamber. That required some built in turbulence.


Well, I'm sorry Mike but you're getting stuff mixed up. Turbulence in the cylinder is good but turbulence in the intake reduces flow.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2015)

old-cat said:


> Well, I'm sorry Mike but you're getting stuff mixed up. Turbulence in the cylinder is good but turbulence in the intake reduces flow.



Technically I agree with you, but I do not think you will achieve the the turbulence needed in the combustion chamber without some degree of turbulence in the transfer port. And yes, it is a balancing act, as turbulence will reduce flow.

It is also interesting to note that a dimpled golf ball will travel further than a smooth round one.

If you look at what the GM engineers did, it involved the intake manifold runner, the port into the head, and the combustion chamber design. I wish we had the type of testing equipment and expertise that they have to achieve similar results, but the bottom line is they must all work well together.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

old-cat said:


> Well, I'm sorry Mike but you're getting stuff mixed up. Turbulence in the cylinder is good but turbulence in the intake reduces flow.


Oldcat would u mind explaining turbulance inside the cylinder?


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2015)

Keith, as I have previously stated, the objective is to have a uniform mix of air/fuel throughout the entire combustion chamber (no lean or rich areas). This simple concept was the key to the dramatic improvements in the performance of GM's traditional style engines. W/O turbulence, your mix will not be uniform.


----------



## old-cat (Jan 14, 2015)

A tight squish gap gives extreme turbulence in the combustion chamber. GM used swirl shape right under the intake valve to create turbulence.
I have studied the GM engineer tech papers on their fast burn, swirl port engines.


----------



## les-or-more (Jan 14, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, as I have previously stated, the objective is to have a uniform mix of air/fuel throughout the entire combustion chamber (no lean or rich areas). This simple concept was the key to the dramatic improvements in the performance of GM's traditional style engines. W/O turbulence, your mix will not be uniform.


You are comparing apples to oranges, the 2 stroke needs to push the spent charge out with the fresh charge, mixing is not desirable, and there aren't any valves or extra strokes to achieve, what is done in the car engines.


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## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Well fellers GM dont make chainsaws!! Lol! I was interested in mamimum efficiency of the shape of the entrance to the exit of the transfers. Take more material out or leave more in, squared corners vs tapered exits on the upper transfers, flat ceiling vs progressive ceilings on the upper transfers?


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

Well, in my weak brain......and after typing this dozens of times.....

Everything you remove from the bottom end will lower case compression.


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## les-or-more (Jan 14, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Well fellers GM dont make chainsaws!! Lol! I was interested in mamimum efficiency of the shape of the entrance to the exit of the transfers. Take more material out or leave more in, squared corners vs tapered exits on the upper transfers, flat ceiling vs progressive ceilings on the upper transfers?


That is where the incredibly simple two stroke gets incredibly complex.


----------



## les-or-more (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well, in my weak brain......and after typing this dozens of times.....
> 
> Everything you remove from the bottom end will lower case compression.


If only !
Everything is always a trade off.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

So.......if you wanna grind all up in the lowers........you best be building a super high rpm race saw.......


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well, in my weak brain......and after typing this dozens of times.....
> 
> Everything you remove from the bottom end will lower case compression.


That would include fingers and bridges wouldnt it Randy?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

So blend the bottom lip at the lower , smooth out any edges/imperfections in the passage, but the upper shape floor and ceiling and both side corners are where I know u have a nice recipe u like Randy?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

It would include bridges and fingers. You might have noticed that I try just bridges, or just fingers, and sometimes both. I'm still learning you know....

Also think about the size of those bridges and fingers. They* likely* (I have no way to be certain) flow at a high velocity because they are small......right?

That's why I* think* (again, I have no way to be certain) they will be better in a work saw than enlarging the existing transfer passages.

All this is just ideas......thoughts.....some observations. What do you think?


----------



## old-cat (Jan 14, 2015)

I say let's put a blower on the carb


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

I just barely knock the lip off the bottom in two port Stihls. I like to *think* that it keeps fuel from pooling there. It has nothing to do with flow. 

Notice that the crank bells are as high or higher than that lip?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

old-cat said:


> I say let's put a blower on the carb



That would work........if we had valves. lol


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It would include bridges and fingers. You might have noticed that I try just bridges, or just fingers, and sometimes both. I'm still learning you know....
> 
> Also think about the size of those bridges and fingers. They* likely* (I have no way to be certain) flow at a high velocity because they are small......right?
> 
> ...


I agree. Just like a waterhose with a broad or smaller exit tip creating more velocity and turbulance!! I never thought about it and guess thats why I called you in!!! Lol


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

These threads get good when we can kick ideas around.

I sure ain't got all the answers though. 

Lynn, I'm thinking you may have a lot of good things to input here.


----------



## les-or-more (Jan 14, 2015)

old-cat said:


> I say let's put a blower on the carb


How much do ya think ya push a 661 if you force fed it with a br600 Randy?


----------



## old-cat (Jan 14, 2015)

Stuff I've learned about engines and flow, I don't have words for.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

old-cat said:


> Stuff I've learned about engines and flow, I don't have words for.


Cough that hairball up Oldcat and lets hear it!! Im trying to learn


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> These threads get good when we can kick ideas around.
> 
> I sure ain't got all the answers though.
> 
> Lynn, I'm thinking you may have a lot of good things to input here.


Randy you have a slew of saws out there and 3 certified dyno saws that I know of that exceeded any expectations! Fire away if you are willing . Im all ears


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

I really don't do anything special.

Just attention to detail......and I keep good notes.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

A few more pics.

We'll be running a little fuel thru these saws today.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)




----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)




----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 14, 2015)

all of this overthinking is leaving me totally confused...... but aleast it hasn't derailed yet


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 14, 2015)

Randy, how close to u'r 390 recipe will the 661's numbers wind up?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Nothing wrong with learning alil bit while Waitin on Randy?


----------



## Moparmyway (Jan 14, 2015)

I really like that exhaust !!


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## old-cat (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Lynn, I'm thinking you may have a lot of good things to input here.


No, not a lot, maybe a little. What I'm seeing is a whole lot of hot exhaust up there high when the piston is opening the ex port. That's where the fresh charge needs to go. So, those finger ports aiming straight up seems right. I don't like the transfer ports blowing straight across the piston top.


----------



## singinwoodwackr (Jan 14, 2015)

wow, you really opened up the muff. are you going to try some tests with just that mod before porting?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

Yeah, I still have a bone stock saw on the shelf. 

I'll try just that muffler, then that epoxy jug on it. 

It's nasty out today. Ice on everything. I'm porting 461s and waiting on test cuts.


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 14, 2015)

chrysler in the early 90's on their 4cyl engines went from a large oval shaped chamber to an almost heart shaped chamber to improve mixing but none of that applies here. the mixing of air and fuel comes from pushing the mix up through the transfers and the natural turbulence of the intake and crankcase? then its a matter of the fresh fuel/air pushing out the burned fuel with as little dilution as possible. does that mean that transfers need to flow across, up, or toward the intake to push the exhaust gasses out? looking at all the junk jugs i have laying around they all appear to have flat ceilings to the transfers and be aimed toward the intake. so flow is across the piston and toward the intake.

tryin to learn a bit while im on here instead of doing the mountain of work sitting in front of my bench


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

The dual transfer jugs.....well, they are antiques.

Look at a quad ported jug. The two nearest the intake are normally angled upward......and the two on the exhaust side are flat.

Mull that over in the ol' mush melon awhile.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> The dual transfer jugs.....well, they are antiques.
> 
> Look at a quad ported jug. The two nearest the intake are normally angled upward......and the two on the exhaust side are flat.
> 
> Mull that over in the ol' mush melon awhile.


So r 2 of them for scavenging exhaust and 2 for charging the chamber with fresh fuel?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

2 of the ports in a quad setup serving the same purpose as fingers?


----------



## Ray Bell (Jan 14, 2015)

KG441c said:


> 2 of the ports in a quad setup serving the same purpose as fingers?


Great thread...WAY over my pea grain noggin...but great thread.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 14, 2015)

Hey Randy, you figured out how you want to finger port that 088 yet?
Same recipe as smaller saws or a little different?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> The dual transfer jugs.....well, they are antiques.
> 
> Look at a quad ported jug. The two nearest the intake are normally angled upward......and the two on the exhaust side are flat.
> 
> Mull that over in the ol' mush melon awhile.


Do the 2 ports nearest the intake side open a tad sooner than the exhaust side transfers?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Hey Randy, you figured out how you want to finger port that 088 yet?
> Same recipe as smaller saws or a little different?



Oh yeah.......I've got that one done. (in my head anyway) lol



KG441c said:


> Do the 2 ports nearest the intake side open a tad sooner than the exhaust side transfers?



Sometimes.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 14, 2015)

In dual transfer jugs what is ideal angle or shape? Has anybody done tapered upper transfers to possibly increase velocity?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

I try to keep the same entry angles that the factory designers had. Sometimes when raising the transfers a lot, that is tough to do. Also, you have to be careful not to cut thru the top.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I try to keep the same entry angles that the factory designers had. Sometimes when raising the transfers a lot, that is tough to do. Also, you have to be careful not to cut thru the top.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 14, 2015)

Do you use the piston ring trick for laying out your port work? I have heard the business card thing, but you have to establish the height first.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)




----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


>




It do be like that........it do. 

WooT WooT


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 14, 2015)

Finally got around to dropping off my cylinder to my machinist buddy. Originally it had .030 off the squish and .030 off base. Now with the new piston( shorter on top and longer skirts) taking another .030 off squish and .044 off base, for a total of .074 off base, it should end up .026 squish.


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

Coolness.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


>



That makes sense right there!


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jan 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Finally got around to dropping off my cylinder to my machinist buddy. Originally it had .030 off the squish and .030 off base. Now with the new piston( shorter on top and longer skirts) taking another .030 off squish and .044 off base, for a total of .074 off base, it should end up .026 squish.


Measure three times, check twice, cut once


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> That makes sense right there!



Maybe.

That guy sounds like a freakin hick though.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Maybe.
> 
> That guy sounds like a freakin hick though.


Least he aint a Yank!!


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Maybe.
> 
> That guy sounds like a freakin hick though.


People sure payin a overalls wearin monkey with a grinder good money !! Lol!!! Must be doin somethin right?


Mastermind said:


> Maybe.
> 
> That guy sounds like a freakin hick though.


good straight foward info on the video. Thanks


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Maybe.
> 
> That guy sounds like a freakin hick though.


Most hicks have straight forward down to earth common sense though


----------



## KG441c (Jan 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Most hicks have straight forward down to earth common sense though


Hes not givin himself much credit here as many of us that have been beggin to pick his brain here alil today?


----------



## Wayne68 (Jan 14, 2015)

That muffler mod looks great. Would that be overkill for a stock 661? Are there any detrimental effects from having a much more free flowing exhaust?


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

It should be just fine on a stock saw.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 14, 2015)

this guy builds an ok saw I guess


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

That pipe worked a lot better after I ported the old motor properly. lol


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 14, 2015)

Pop ups and windows. Your thoughts.
I don't know how to bring this old thread up, but it has some good reading in it


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> That pipe worked a lot better after I ported the old motor properly. lol


yes it did, big bore right?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

Yep.......100cc big bore jug with a 395XP piston. 

I'm fixin to redo it though.

I'm gonna use a 064 top end this time. 




Oh......popups suck balls.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 14, 2015)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/pop-ups-and-windows-your-thoughts.188224/
got it


----------



## singinwoodwackr (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Maybe.
> 
> That guy sounds like a freakin hick though.


sounds like back home...in Merced, Ca, LOL


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2015)

A lot of folks show how little they know in that thread Scott.


----------



## singinwoodwackr (Jan 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It should be just fine on a stock saw.


I went by your pics and opened mine up about 50% from stock (not as much as yours)...will try it out later this week.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 15, 2015)

same saw?


----------



## drf255 (Jan 15, 2015)

Randy,

What do you polish ports with? It's tough to find little cartridge rolls small enough for these ports. Do you make your own?

What saws do you find that benefit from extra transfer ports and not just modification of existing? I mean finger ports and bridge ports.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just build work saws and never add anything to the case. Everything I do has to hold up in a work environment.......so epoxy is never used. I ain't getting into race saws......ever.]


an old post, lol never he said lol


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 15, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> an old post, lol never he said lol


that just proves the rule that you never say NEVER! everytime i say it something comes back to bite me


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> same saw?




No. That one was a standard bore 066. 



drf255 said:


> Randy,
> 
> What do you polish ports with? It's tough to find little cartridge rolls small enough for these ports. Do you make your own?
> 
> What saws do you find that benefit from extra transfer ports and not just modification of existing? I mean finger ports and bridge ports.



I get them on ebay......and I sometimes use a mandrel. Depends on the spot I'm working in. 

The 70cc and up saws seem to like the finger ports more. 



tree monkey said:


> an old post, lol never he said lol



I saw that yesterday. 



fordf150 said:


> that just proves the rule that you never say NEVER! everytime i say it something comes back to bite me



Me too.....as you see. lol


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 15, 2015)

KG441c said:


> People sure payin a overalls wearin monkey with a grinder good money !! Lol!!! Must be doin somethin right?
> 
> good straight foward info on the video. Thanks


 We both know he did from our results with my 660 and your 461. Randy increased my 660's HP 40.3%! My porting costs were cheap compared to the gains. 40% cost of my saw is nearly $500.....porting cost was half that.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> We both know he did from our results with my 660 and your 461. Randy increased my 660's HP 40.3%! My porting costs were cheap compared to the gains. 40% cost of my saw is nearly $500.....porting cost was half that.


You will always have folks that r jealous trying to tear u down but results are the proof of success


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

A new 33RSC.....


----------



## showrguy (Jan 15, 2015)

thoughts ??


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

It didn't seem overly impressive on that cut. 

New chain seems dull to me. We ran a file thru the chain,and made about a dozen noodling cuts. 

It feels a hell of a lot better now.


----------



## TK (Jan 15, 2015)

Randy my hesitating hard starting 562 cuts faster than that thing. Try try again you overgrowed poop throwing idiot.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

lol

You're a fat headed bozo........

So there.


----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 15, 2015)

Nice! Git r done!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

That chain felt dull. But I'm not too excited about playing in the cold. 

I'm shipping these two saws tomorrow.


----------



## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 15, 2015)

with a dull chain it looked about as fast as a ported 261 LOL 
maybe it needs more banana and less grinder.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 15, 2015)

You should try a popup in that saw, Randy!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

Hell of it.......that is a new 33RSC.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> You should try a popup in that saw, Randy!



I'm ok with it........popups suck.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm ok with it........popups suck.


Not in my saws they don't


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

Yeah they do.

You're just too hard headed to see that.


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 15, 2015)

Lol…you guys


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

I love "The Bradley".

He can't see that either.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

I never did get a real good "looking" cut today......I ran a little fuel through the saw noodling a few big nasties. Then filed the chain. 

Just about rolled the round over on me  but here's that vid. 



I'm really anxious to see how the jug with the epoxied intake does. I prolly need to find a better way to hold them rounds though.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 15, 2015)

Any gut feelings on how it compares to your 395s?


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 15, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Any gut feelings on how it compares to your 395s?


^^Yeah, this


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I never did get a real good "looking" cut today......I ran a little fuel through the saw noodling a few big nasties. Then filed the chain.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really anxious to see how the jug with the epoxied intake does. I prolly need to find a better way to hold them rounds though.



That one looks good!
I curious how to epoxied jug turns out....


----------



## singinwoodwackr (Jan 15, 2015)

any thoughts on just your muffler mod by itself?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm having a heck of a time keeping a good chain in this weather. There is ice on all the wood here, and after a cut or two, the chain is blunt.

I'll do my best to test this next saw with just a modded muffler, and with a couple of different jugs.

I have two more in route, so the MS661 will get plenty more testing here.

Brad, I've really not been able to get any serious time on these saws......but I *think* they are gonna be a very popular saw. How it compares to one of my 395s.......I still don't think it will be able to touch it.

I do a 395 with 100/120/80

I have a 661 jug sitting here with those exact numbers.......we shall see.


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm having a heck of a time keeping a good chain in this weather. There is ice on all the wood here, and after a cut or two, the chain is blunt.
> 
> I'll do my best to test this next saw with just a modded muffler, and with a couple of different jugs.
> 
> ...




Dull chains suk & frozen wood dulls chains. You're running semi?


----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 15, 2015)

It must cut good...there was sawdust still falling from the sky from the first cut!! Booyaa!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

stihlaficionado said:


> Dull chains suk & frozen wood dulls chains. You're running semi?



No sir. 

33RSC


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

How bad of a whoopin will that ported 661 put on a ported 461?


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No sir.
> 
> 33RSC




Dulls fast in frozen wood.

Why don't you cart that log into the shop & let it thaw out then cart it back & make your cuts?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 15, 2015)

Like was said before ,the woods frozed sir ,i had the same problem once ,changed 3-4 chains before i figured it out ,same log after it warmed up cut like normal ,you are not going to get fair results till you melt the wood .


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

KG441c said:


> How bad of a whoopin will that ported 661 put on a ported 461?



In that size wood I doubt there would be much difference.


----------



## Joe Kidd (Jan 15, 2015)

stihlaficionado said:


> Dulls fast in frozen wood.
> 
> Why don't you cart that log into the shop & let it thaw out then cart it back & make your cuts?


...or put some blue goo in the saw


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Like was said before ,the woods frozed sir ,i had the same problem once ,changed 3-4 chains before i figured it out ,same log after it warmed up cut like normal ,you are not going to get fair results till you melt the wood .



You're right. I know it. 

I need to test these saws in wood......frozen or not though. They need to be shipped.


----------



## stihlaficionado (Jan 15, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Like was said before ,the woods frozed sir ,i had the same problem once ,changed 3-4 chains before i figured it out ,same log after it warmed up cut like normal ,you are not going to get fair results till you melt the wood .


This we know. But running semi will at least get you through a cut .

Barely


----------



## showrguy (Jan 15, 2015)

couple of years age i went out to cut some red oak logs i had layin in a pile..
1at chain---thought my grinder skills went south ???
2nd chain---thought the same as 1st, but maybe rakers also a little high ???
3rd chain----dam thing ain't self feeding either ??? WTF ???? these are all stihl rsc chains that ALWAYS self feed the way i set em up ???? 
finally figured out what could be different-----------------logs were frozen !!!!! 
2-3 days later it warmed up, and would'nt ya know, them bad chains were now really good chains again..............lesson learned...


----------



## Stihlman441 (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You're right. I know it.
> 
> I need to test these saws in wood......frozen or not though. They need to be shipped.



Ge


Mastermind said:


> You're right. I know it.
> 
> I need to test these saws in wood......frozen or not though. They need to be shipped.



Get them logs inside near the fire and un freeze um.
There needs to be more commitment with this project.

Sorry i must be de hydrated and have a little sun stroke.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

I don't like frozed wood.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Ole John Laslab has a small tree for us to try his 661 and my ported 461 out in


----------



## rburg (Jan 15, 2015)

That looks like a good test log.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

John says maybe Willowoak? Does anyone else know?


----------



## TK (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> lol
> 
> You're a fat headed bozo........
> 
> So there.


Hi randy


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

TK said:


> Hi randy



Hello Tea Kay.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

Si


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Si


Ya I operate this d9 dozer for 12hrs and have alota time to think!!! Lol!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

I hear ya Keith. 

You keep me thinking too buddy.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Actually what Ive been thinkin today is manipulating velocity through transfers and using different octanes to compensate. Just thinkin out loud!! Lol


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 15, 2015)

I was going to ask what it was. I think U need a longer bar!

I been playin with timing on 044#2.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 15, 2015)

Have any ideas for this manipulation of velocity?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Have any ideas for this manipulation of velocity?


Not really. Just the effect of different velocities through them and the impact of different octanes and building a cylider around thoso ideas


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I was going to ask what it was. I think U need a longer bar!
> 
> I been playin with timing on 044#2.


Actually on timing I was thinkin non advanced, less velocity in transfers, and higher octane. Sounds slow!!! Lmbo!!!


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 15, 2015)

On my snowmobile I have a custom boost bottle, it's a tube that connects the intake boots, after carb and before cylinder. This will equalize pressure, but more importantly store atomized fuel mixture. Wonder if this could be used in a saw?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> On my snowmobile I have a custom boost bottle, it's a tube that connects the intake boots, after carb and before cylinder. This will equalize pressure, but more importantly store atomized fuel mixture. Wonder if this could be used in a saw?


I have no clue. My thinking is these short stroke saws respond to advanced timing, higher velocity, and 87 octane very efficiently. Wonder what non advanced, less velocity, and higher octane will do. Seems the motor has to be built on one concept or the other?


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 15, 2015)

KG441c said:


> I have no clue. My thinking is these short stroke saws respond to advanced timing, higher velocity, and 87 octane very efficiently. Wonder what non advanced, less velocity, and higher octane will do. Seems the motor has to be built on one concept or the other?


Not sure but I think you would need a shat load of compression for that to work at all


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes. Reduced crankcase compression would be a factor but wouldnt that setup build more low end torque on bigger displacement saws?


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 15, 2015)

Possibly, or it may just run like a turd. There is only one way to find out


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Possibly, or it may just run like a turd. There is only one way to find out


Im just thinkin and trying to learn. Hard to do here sometimes though. Alota people ready to put their foot in ur ass at the drop of a hat!! Lol


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Im ready to see Randys modified 661 cylinder in action


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 15, 2015)

Maybe tomorrow.....


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 15, 2015)

Keith, I think it was Randy's build of your 461 where he detailed how to do the timing advance.

I run 93 octane and 40:1 oil mix. Lower octane my provide more power, but I think higher octane runs cooler, and should help your saw to last longer.

Wish someone with a heat gun would test it, as I've just heard of the testing second hand.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 15, 2015)

Quote:
Me and Laslab have some cuttin to do here in a few weeks and I have a gun, 87 e free, and sunoco 110 and ill try it for u


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 16, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Quote:
> Me and Laslab have some cuttin to do here in a few weeks and I have a gun, 87 e free, and sunoco 110 and ill try it for u


That must be that 110 purple haze I gave you....smells good. If y'all what a real man's saw I'll let you borrow my ported 660...lol


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> That must be that 110 purple haze I gave you....smells good. If y'all what a real man's saw I'll let you borrow my ported 660...lol


Bring it down ole buddy. Down South Gtg


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 16, 2015)

KG441c said:


> John says maybe Willowoak? Does anyone else know?


Send me more pics I'll identify it...leaves would be a 100% ID but it's a deciduous so no leaves in winter.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Send me more pics I'll identify it...leaves would be a 100% ID but it's a deciduous so no leaves in winter.


Dont have any more pics but Laslab said pretty sure its WillowOak


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jan 16, 2015)

Any of these guys that have tried to get an insecticide shot a about 10 more feet into the canopy
by boosting the input pressure, only to have your spray stream break up as you increase the pressure, will have an idea
of how the transfer shapes will affect the the scavenging. figure your medium that's being driven through the tunnel, what's the relative pressure where it exits?
The bug spry stream breaks up from the all of that extra energy just pushing outwards. in all directions.

you can get into that stream flow conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_conditioning
and help somewhat. 

About Nozzle shape accuracy. 
Ever tried to use a nozzle that someone dinged the end of? or reamed out with a drill bit or tip cleaner and now it sprays like a thumb over garden hose?
Or just has that little spritzy, kinda sidwies bit of liquid.
Kind of like having a tiny piece of trash in your (syphon type) paint gun.
You know how it just makes that crappy overspray off the side
and maybe a little sputtery dribble.

if it's a little worse of a bugger in the tip,then that sputzer bit almost wants to run back on the nozzle, instead.
maybe blowing a splattery, splotchy, kinda hard to get it all the cross that hood or whatever your painting.
Versious a nice smooth spray stream that you can send out in a nice predictable pattern and put it where you want it.

Now what if your goofy cousion is running the gun and doesn't belive in pouring through a filter?
And then next thing sets the gun down in the sun and He takes a lunch run
and decides to make a parts run also.

Well by time he gets back, the paint 's sorta gummed in the ol' nozzle again.
Bit too dry to pick out with a twig or matchstem.
Ahhh but here lays a little bitty nail and he thinks:
" there aint no way it's gonna hurt that old paint nozzle"

Well now the nozzle has sort of strait part in the hole that's still about
like the factory drilled it.
But he was was holding the nozzle in left hand and just ended up scraping on the right side of the hole, just tad more.

Well now, puts it back together and left side kinda sprays OK still.
the right side now is almost like it's about 15~20 degrees wider pattern
And got that kinda pissy like sorta throwing droplets in with the fine spray.


Well now you might see a bit of why I squawk about radius conditions and those little cutter wiggles
Aint just the ring hammering aspect that's on my mind. 
Go back and look a the wash patterens on the domes, find that tiny swirl and start looking upstream.
There are several reasons to use the dental mirror and smooth those tunnel countors.

I'm trying to make some analogies here. I think if I can figure out some things that poeple can see and do, in other areas of your work or life,
Might be easier to catch on 
and have that moment when what the portmasters are laying down for us,
begins to to morph into something the finaly makes sense to us.

= = =
But then again, It may just be that all of ya, should put me in a block list
untill the rest of this knee dope wears off of me !!


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jan 16, 2015)

Can you set a saw down by the woodpile, or will that hound dog put a marking on it too?


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I never did get a real good "looking" cut today......I ran a little fuel through the saw noodling a few big nasties. Then filed the chain.
> 
> Just about rolled the round over on me  but here's that vid.
> 
> ...



What size bar where you running there randy


----------



## super3 (Jan 16, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Quote:
> Me and Laslab have some cuttin to do here in a few weeks and I have a gun, 87 e free, and sunoco 110 and ill try it for u




110 (& up) is getting real close to where bad mojo shows up. May be all you can get in your area for non e fuel.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

super3 said:


> 110 (& up) is getting real close to where bad mojo shows up. May be all you can get in your area for non e fuel.


I can get anywhere between 87 and 93 e free locally . What ill effects start showing up with 110 other than its not as efficient and completely burning the entire fuel that was took in for these shorter 2 strokes ? Im curious


----------



## super3 (Jan 16, 2015)

All fuels have different blend packages, very well could have been "the" particular brand I was trying. 
114 I was seeing misfires.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

Im wondering how mtronics compensates for high octane?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

I plan on running a mix of 87 e free and 1 with sunoco 110 and check temps as I know Mustang has wondered on that idea for awhile now. Personally I dont think the high octane reacts the same in these shorter 2 strokes as they do in the longer stroked motors.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

I think the 110 will burn cooler as it has a slower burn rate to start with and isnt gonna burn completely in these short 2 strokes and especially with advanced timing?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 16, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Im wondering how mtronics compensates for high octane?


The same way it compensates for all variables. It simply tunes for max RPMs in the cut. In that manner, it can tune for temperature, humidity, fuel, dirty filter, elevation.....


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

The 87 with advanced timing is gonna be a hotter more complete burn per intake charge or at least thats the way im thinkin


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> The same way it compensates for all variables. It simply tunes for max RPMs in the cut. In that manner, it can tune for temperature, humidity, fuel, dirty filter, elevation.....


So Brad with the high octane, say 110 which is gonna burn slower, it would sense a rich condition and compensate?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 16, 2015)

The higher the octane, the more resistant to ignition it is. You want to run the lowest octane you can. Any more than that will theoretically make less power. In the real world, you'll see VERY little difference.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> The higher the octane, the more resistant to ignition it is. You want to run the lowest octane you can. Any more than that will theoretically make less power. In the real world, you'll see VERY little difference.


Yes I remember when Chad used high and low on the dyno the 87 produced more power but Mustang is more interested in temperatures. Im thinkin on mtronics it will adjust for either and run the same temp but on a reg. Carb saw if not adjusted for it will make a difference?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 16, 2015)

Lower temps doesn't mean better. Heat makes power.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Lower temps doesn't mean better. Heat makes power.


I buy that!! Thats why I know the lower octane ignites quicker, more volatile, and burns with more heat and more completely with less out the exhaust. Brad wheres the best place to check temp on the saw with a handheld temp gun?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 16, 2015)

Probably the exhaust port or head. I think you're going to have trouble controlling variables enough to get accurate results. I could be wrong


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Probably the exhaust port or head. I think you're going to have trouble controlling variables enough to get accurate results. I could be wrong


Its new to me Brad but Mustang ask once before if I would do that when I was testing octanes and it slipped my mind. Laslab and I will have a cut here in a week or two and play around with chains and temps. Should be fun


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Probably the exhaust port or head. I think you're going to have trouble controlling variables enough to get accurate results. I could be wrong


What would you say would be a significant temp. Difference?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 16, 2015)

KG441c said:


> What would you say would be a significant temp. Difference?


I really have no idea. I only care about the power output.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

Something else ive wondered about is quality of the fuel from a race company with canned fuel vs pump gas


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 16, 2015)

Your going to see VERY little performance difference with most any reasonable fuel choice. The only reason to go with canned oil is for extended service life, or if you have a problem with ethanol. All fuel around here has ethanol and I've had almost no trouble with it. However, I do like the piece of mind of e-free fuel when I can get it.


----------



## User Name Here (Jan 16, 2015)

while y'all are talking about octane differences, I'm trying to figure out what I need to run in a ported saw. I know it is recommended to run 93 e-free in stock saws, but I'm having a hard time finding that around my area. So far the closest I can find 93 e-free is a town away - about 30 miles. I have access to 87 e-free in town but I'm assuming that I should run at least mid-grade e-free. I know what problems ethanol causes as I have had to replace fuel lines and such because of it, and have been running the 87 e-free in my saws lately and they seem to do fine with it, but I haven't even gotten my ported saw back yet and want to make sure I don't hurt it by running something I shouldn't. what say you?


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2015)

User Name Here said:


> while y'all are talking about octane differences, I'm trying to figure out what I need to run in a ported saw. I know it is recommended to run 93 e-free in stock saws, but I'm having a hard time finding that around my area. So far the closest I can find 93 e-free is a town away - about 30 miles. I have access to 87 e-free in town but I'm assuming that I should run at least mid-grade e-free. I know what problems ethanol causes as I have had to replace fuel lines and such because of it, and have been running the 87 e-free in my saws lately and they seem to do fine with it, but I haven't even gotten my ported saw back yet and want to make sure I don't hurt it by running something I shouldn't. what say you?


By all means the 87 e free!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Jan 16, 2015)

I say.....this stuff is waaaaaay over thought


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> Any of these guys that have tried to get an insecticide shot a about 10 more feet into the canopy
> by boosting the input pressure, only to have your spray stream break up as you increase the pressure, will have an idea
> of how the transfer shapes will affect the the scavenging. figure your medium that's being driven through the tunnel, what's the relative pressure where it exits?
> The bug spry stream breaks up from the all of that extra energy just pushing outwards. in all directions.
> ...



Nice post. 



LegDeLimber said:


> Can you set a saw down by the woodpile, or will that hound dog put a marking on it too?



If he can't F it.......he pisses on it. 



Stihl working hard said:


> What size bar where you running there randy



28"



blsnelling said:


> Lower temps doesn't mean better. Heat makes power.



I agree 110%



KG441c said:


> By all means the 87 e free!



I agree again.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> I say.....this stuff is waaaaaay over thought



I agree yet again.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

Sup B'Rad?


----------



## User Name Here (Jan 16, 2015)

That'll work for me! I was dreading either a 30 min drive or using ethanol gas. I guess I'm as bad as most others about over thinking stuff.

Randy - I meant to ask you the other day when you called but I was going about 3 directions at once and it slipped my mind.

Thanks guys!


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 16, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Bring it down ole buddy. Down South





KG441c said:


> Yes I remember when Chad used high and low on the dyno the 87 produced more power but Mustang is more interested in temperatures. Im thinkin on mtronics it will adjust for either and run the same temp but on a reg. Carb saw if not adjusted for it will make a difference?


 
Here's the dyno testing Chad did on my 660, 212 psi, with 92 and 110 octane. At 10500 and 11500 the 110 showed a slight HP advantage. At 9500 and 11000 the 92 showed an advantage (most of the rpm range the 92 showed an advantage). At 9000 and 10000 both were the same.
I've only conducted one octane test with my 660 with 93 and 110. The 110 was an average of 11.6% faster in dry 25" wood. Both were 4-stroking well at carb tune. I wouldn't disagree with someone if they said that 93 or 87 was faster in their saw compared to racing fuel. I would like to conduct more field tests myself.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

Now that's what I'm looking for.....


----------



## TK (Jan 16, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> On my snowmobile I have a custom boost bottle, it's a tube that connects the intake boots, after carb and before cylinder. This will equalize pressure, but more importantly store atomized fuel mixture. Wonder if this could be used in a saw?


I think that's for linking two carbs on two cylinders, equalizing the two. I don't think you can do anything with that in a single carb/single cylinder situation. Those were also used only on reed valve setups if I remember correctly.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes you are correct to equalize pressure and store atomized fuel. When you are running full throttle and let off there is fuel mix that is unburnt and blown backwards, this is why you get fuel/oil on the air filter. If you have a chamber to store that atomized fuel the next time you hit the throttle you have instant throttle response. But that is all you will gain throttle response, no hp


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Now that's what I'm looking for.....
> 
> View attachment 395178


 
200psi has to be better than 180....more torque? Any bridge ports planned for it?


----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 16, 2015)

The suspense is killing me...he probably waiting for his heart to calm down...or looking for broken pieces in the dark! Lol


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 16, 2015)

Ron, I think your graph confirms what Brad said, and I think it would be even closer if it was 87 & 93.

OK, I just cracked my owner's manual for the 362 C: "Use mid-grade unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 89 and no more than 10% ethanol content. Fuel with lower octane rating may increase engine temperatures. This, in turn, increased the risk of piston seizure and damage to the engine."

Keep in mind, all these recommendations are with the 50:1 mix ratio. Changing the mix ratio to 40 or 32 to 1 will also increase the octane because oil will not burn as fast as gas.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

I just got home.

Took my lovely wife out for her birthday.


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 16, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 395166
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Realistically, that graph tells me the two are virtually identical. I have no doubt that the differences between those two curves is several times less than the error/variation of the values - that is not a shot at Chad's dyno at all, rather there is always error in everything, and plenty of possible sources here.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

We all know that gut feelings, how something sounds, etc, are poor indications of how something will really run......but this MS661 sounds freakin mean. My gut tells me that it's gonna be something really special.


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 16, 2015)

So is this a poor indication of how it's really goin to run


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

Who knows? 

I just pulled the jug to check everything.......all is well.

We shall see tomorrow.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just got home.
> 
> Took my lovely wife out for her birthday.


happy birthday to her  she gets a spinning loop and a coffee......no cake lol.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

Have you ran that 064 yet Mike?


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 16, 2015)

yes sir but not falling yet. blocking 12" wood in the yard ain't a good test lol. it is sloppy here......freeze thaw, freeze thaw.......works slow.
it starts with one pull, can ya believe it? old bing still is good. that coil and fly wheel combo works well..... however i wonder if it still has the same timing........sure cranks easier lol.


----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 16, 2015)

My gut feeling is telling me I have to go to the bathroom....


----------



## Deets066 (Jan 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Who knows?
> 
> I just pulled the jug to check everything.......all is well.
> 
> We shall see tomorrow.


This is the epoxied jug we are talkin bout correct?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes sir.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just got home.
> 
> Took my lovely wife out for her birthday.


Pics?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

Maybe.


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 16, 2015)

That epoxy should hold up just fine in the intake port.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 16, 2015)

I think so too. 

Being able to raise this intake opened up a bunch of possibilities. 

I was able to take more from the squish area, and get that extra 20psi I was looking for.......


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 16, 2015)

I have used JB Weld in my personal "play" saws with no issues.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Well the proof is in the pudding.....or so I've heard that said. 

With the intake raised......


----------



## walexa07 (Jan 17, 2015)

subscribed!


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well the proof is in the pudding.....or so I've heard that said.
> 
> With the intake raised......




But...but.....

How can that be????

85 works great in em....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

85 degree intake ports in the 661 ain't working so well for me. I can make it run "OK" there but then I ain't using a popup.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 17, 2015)

Sounds very healthy Randy. What is your take ... how strong does it feel?

Maybe U should have kept UR procedure secret ... could have cornered the market!!!!

I know, U R too busy already!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

My stopwatch tell me it's about 3 seconds faster in this configuration.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 17, 2015)

Checkmate!


----------



## KG441c (Jan 17, 2015)




----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/treemonkey-is-a-genius.270719/


----------



## KG441c (Jan 17, 2015)

Domino!!!! Lol


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> But...but.....
> 
> How can that be????
> 
> 85 works great in em....





Mastermind said:


> 85 degree intake ports in the 661 ain't working so well for me. I can make it run "OK" there but then I ain't using a popup.


I'm glad you're pleased with the results, but it would be real nice of you could refrain from the condescending, derogatory remarks, and simply focus on building your own saws.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I'm not gonna feed the troll. 

Good bye Bragley.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not gonna feed the troll.
> 
> Good bye Bragley.


I appreciate that.


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Brad you said you weren't going to beat a dead horse. Randy stopped positing in the previous thread that you got all up in arms about. Started a new thread and here you are beating that poor dead horse again.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

It used to be fun.......getting him all riled up. 

Now it's sad.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> Brad you said you weren't going to beat a dead horse. Randy stopped positing in the previous thread that you got all up in arms about. Started a new thread and here you are beating that poor dead horse again.


As long as Randy has this need to talk condescending and derogatory of my work, I'm going to speak up. Both he and his saws should be able to stand on their own merit, without the need to bully the competition. Randy may have started this thread, but HE brought me into it. It's his choice.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not gonna feed the troll.
> Good bye Bragley.





Mastermind said:


> It used to be fun.......getting him all riled up.
> 
> Now it's sad.


This is just more text book behavior Randy. You behave one way, and then try to project that behavior onto someone else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

All Jeremy and I have done is try to help you see that some of you "ideas" are not good ideas Brad. 

You had a chance to get your head out of your ass and learn something new.

But as anyone reading can see......you are incapable of change.....or growth.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/bullying-jaana-juvonen-233108


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 17, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I'm glad you're pleased with the results, but it would be real nice of you could refrain from the condescending, derogatory remarks, and simply focus on building your own saws.



Did I say anything to you or even about you??

Pretty sure I didnt....


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Randy it's really obvious that it's all your fault. You are such a bully. I bet you took lunch money when you were in school. That's what lead to your psychopathic behavior.


----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 17, 2015)

that's what im talking about! that thing sure did wake up..sounds nasty in the cut...now just have to try a 395 piston?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> All Jeremy and I have done is try to help you see that some of you "ideas" are not good ideas Brad.
> 
> You had a chance to get your head out of your ass and learn something new.
> 
> But as anyone reading can see......you are incapable of change.....or growth.


Your hiding from reality again Randy. You don't help someone by bullying them, being extremely condescending, telling them how poor their work is, and trying to undermine them in a public forum. How I build a saw and how my saws perform is* nothing but a vehicle for your behavior*. *They are not the real issue.*


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> Randy it's really obvious that it's all your fault. You are such a bully. I bet you took lunch money when you were in school. That's what lead to your psychopathic behavior.


More text book psychology. Seriously, this behavior is so pathetic.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Did I say anything to you or even about you??
> 
> Pretty sure I didnt....


Yes you did Jeremy. I don't understand why you want to wade in this pool.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

OK Brad. 

You win. 

I'm a bully. 

Your a nice guy. 

Thanks for the lessons.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 17, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Yes you did Jeremy. I don't understand why you want to wade in this pool.



Please quote the post where I did. 

Please....


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

I already did. You don't have to name me by name for it to be 100% obvious. Why stir the mud Jeremy?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't think he liked that saw proving what we've been trying to teach him Jer.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

It's not that at all Randy. I have no problem with one of your saws being faster or your methods perhaps being right or better, which BTW, you haven't proven. It ALL about how you treat your fellow man. Get that through your head! This is not about my saws being faster or better than your saws. Can you comprehend that?


----------



## mt.stalker (Jan 17, 2015)

Holy crap , I hear enough back stabbing with the women I work with . I do not come on here to read more of that shiz .. Clean the saw dust out of your vaginas !!!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

mt.stalker said:


> Holy crap , I hear enough back stabbing with the women I work with . I do not come on here to read more of that shiz .. Clean the saw dust out of your vaginas ladies !!!


I couldn't agree more! Randy brings this crap day after day. I'm simply calling him out on it. I'd LOVE to see it stop. That control lies within his will.


----------



## fordf150 (Jan 17, 2015)




----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

You're a moron Brad......

I just point it out.


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Brad you just as guilty. You feed it as much as he does by responding to it.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You're a moron Brad......
> 
> I just point it out.


You continue to prove my point. Nice one Randy. If you like to research so much, you should consider reading the links I've posted.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Ain't nothing gonna ever change that.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> Brad you just as guilty. You feed it as much as he does by responding to it.


How long is a man to accept slander and character defamation without a response?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Ain't nothing gonna ever change that.


And therein lies the problem!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

We agree.


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

As long as you know what the truth is to you why the hell should it matter what is said about you online


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 17, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I already did. You don't have to name me by name for it to be 100% obvious. Why stir the mud Jeremy?



Man...what a complex... 

I could give two chits. I've never even seen a 661....


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> As long as you know what the truth is to you why the hell should it matter what is said about you online


What would be your reaction be to someone publically defaming your character, making snide remarks, and attempting to undermine your reputation, month after month after month? You wouldn't care?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Man...what a complex...
> 
> I could give two chits. I've never even seen a 661....


A complex? Seriously? Have you ever had someone treat you like Randy does me? do you think I'd be in here if it weren't for Randy slinging his crap?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I need to cut a pile of squish bands. 

I'll try to be a better person Brad. 

Seriously. 

No more mentions of you.......straight ahead or sideways. 

I give you my word. 

Good Day Sir.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

It blows my mind how a handful of guys can bully someone around month after month after year after year, then when I get fed up and reply, it's me that has a problem. WOW!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I even removed the quote of yours from my sig. 

I gave my word.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I need to cut a pile of squish bands.
> 
> I'll try to be a better person Brad.
> 
> ...


Thank you. You keep that promise and we'll get along just fine. I promise.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Deal.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I even removed the quote of yours from my sig.
> 
> I gave my word.


I take no pleasure in this. Like I told you at Thanksgiving, I highly value when this crap isn't being slung. I just wish it could stay that way.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> Randy it's really obvious that it's all your fault. You are such a bully. I bet you took lunch money when you were in school. That's what lead to your psychopathic behavior.



Speaking of stealing lunches, some city workers in Hamilton Ontario got fired for bringing hash brownies to work.
Another co worker got into the guys lunch, ate some brownies and was rushed off by ambulance on a code 4
I guess leaning on a shovel is dangerous when high.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I know I can be "over the top" when I get rolling. 

I have no trouble admitting that at all.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 17, 2015)

I'm off to get some work done myself. Peace.


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

A guy I used to work with would never bring water to work on the hot days. He would help himself to everyone elses. One guy got sick of it and brought his water cooler full of piss. Other guy drank it. Needless to say he brought his own water to work from then on out.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> As long as you know what the truth is to you why the hell should it matter what is said about you online



If everyone on an online forum told everyone you suck dicks for stamp bags would you let it slide ? Or do you think you would get to a point where you had enough ?.., i dont care about these saws they are tools..no more.. no less..


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

I would get to the point of having enough of the ****. being that this is an internet forum I would disconnect from it and spend my time doing something else. Worrying about what people think of me on an internet forum is the last of my worries.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> I would get to the point of having enough of the ****. being that this is an internet forum I would disconnect from it and spend my time doing something else. Worrying about what people think of me on an internet forum is the last of my worries.



Fair enough my man , saws are brad and randys passion..both respected dudes..your not making a living porting saws..randy does and brad does it because he loves it , your a logger ? , if people went around saying you couldnt cut for **** and constantly rode you about it you would probably get tired of it and have your say..dont you think ?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

All this crap between Brad and I started several years ago now. 

Some of it is my fault.......and some of it is his. 

I'm sure he will agree with that. 

I will do what I said.......I'll refrain from saying anything about him. 

You guys that ain't been here for all those years have no idea......so it's probably best to let it go.


----------



## Ron660 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well the proof is in the pudding.....or so I've heard that said.
> 
> With the intake raised......



Looks strong. Going from 180 to 200psi is an 11.1% increase in compression.


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Id hand them the saw and tell them show me how to do it better then.


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 17, 2015)

Yep compression is torque, and with more torque you have more horsepower. Now with that said, yes there is a point to where more compression gets into diminished returns.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Very true.......

But base flanges normally start cracking on these little engines before you get that much.


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Very true.......
> 
> But base flanges normally start cracking on these little engines before you get that much.


Good to know.


----------



## Joe Kidd (Jan 17, 2015)




----------



## showrguy (Jan 17, 2015)

brad and randy,
you guys both do the same thing..
you just do it differently..
i got saws done by both of you, they all run great..
you guys combined have helped/educated 100's if not 1000's of saw nuts over the years on here and other places..
it brings the whole place down when you guys go down this road..
i ain't pickin sides here, but, i did see this coming when the whole popup thing got started..
my .02 cents 
carry on..


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

showrguy said:


> brad and randy,
> you guys both do the same thing..
> you just do it differently..
> i got saws done by both of you, they all run great..
> ...


Ya but look at poor me, I got totally squeeze and bullied out of the saw building business.
When most think of me they think of a hoof rasp.
This is an outrage!


----------



## CR500 (Jan 17, 2015)

Randy I know you do not plan on doing this on every 661.... but after results like this does it make you ponder more?? I can hear the difference lol, 


We are here for 2 cycle addiction in my eyes!!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Once something is seen, it cannot be unseen. 

I'll let the owner's decide.


----------



## showrguy (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Once something is seen, it cannot be unseen.
> 
> I'll let the owner's decide.


that's not exactly true..
just ask hillary clinton about what happened in benghazi..


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 17, 2015)

I was gonna say, it's like Deja vu all over again! Glad U both worked it out again! No more Red Bulls for either one of you!!!

This thread is too nice to derail!

Back to shop talk, performance is one thing, but R U comfortable filling part of a port in a customer's saw???

Bret, what will a 395 piston do? How is it different?

Thanks.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

The 395XP piston will fit by using a 2100XP wrist pin bearing, but the connecting rod will be able to slide back and forth. The solution to that would be spacer bushings the take up the area between the wrist pin bosses, and take the pin size down to 12mm. 

Also, the crankcase would need some relieving to allow the piston skirt to travel down into it.

I think I'd rather fill in the intake floor.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Once something is seen, it cannot be unseen.
> 
> I'll let the owner's decide.



Agreed 100%. 


If I were you, I'd stop sharing so much porting info online too BTW.....


----------



## CR500 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Once something is seen, it cannot be unseen.
> 
> I'll let the owner's decide.


durability should be fine right?

will send a pm in a bit
Clint


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

That's a good idea Wiggs......but.

People need to see how, and why.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks for the "how to" explanation, but what would be the anticipated benefit? Is it higher or lower from the wrist pin to the top, etc?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Lower.

But the skirt is longer.

I'd need to cut even more from the base to get the compression I'm after. That would put the skirt of the piston would be down in the case a right good bit.

Here's a pic of the stock piston at BDC.


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Hey Randy why do you suppose they switched to the metal flywheel again?


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I'm not sure, but it could be for added inertia.


----------



## CR500 (Jan 17, 2015)

lets lighten the mood in a WNY kind of way lol


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Wasn't that a problem with the 066s. Shearing the crank off at the flywheel side? Which is why they went to the ploy one.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Good point Colton.


----------



## spencerpaving (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Lower.
> 
> But the skirt is longer.
> 
> ...


yea that would be a problem...for every action there is always a reaction...darn it stihl..they did this on purpose!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

lol

I hear ya Brett. 

At this point epoxy seems to be the only good approach.


----------



## MechanicMatt (Jan 17, 2015)

Lil derail, randy, you ever put a 064 piston in a 372 BB cylinder?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2015)

You know you just gave stihl the new port mapping to next years jugs right ? Like they do not watch these threads and stuff .


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

I've used a 272 piston in a BB372 jug. 

I didn't like the results, it lowered case compression too much IMHO.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

Randy, I have a carpentry question.
I'm gonna start putting soffits under the eves. Do I need to put vent holes in the two pitched ends or just on the horizontal sides.
Here's a pic of the end in question.
Thx.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Looks like it will vent between the lath boards and the rafter.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2015)

Do you have a ridge vent on the top of the roof ?


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

Sorry, lost the text, computer slow. No roof vent yet Brian.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 17, 2015)

I agree with Wiggs. Stop sharing so much of your trade secrets. No need in it at this point.


----------



## AKDoug (Jan 17, 2015)

Gypo- You don't need to vent those runs. You need to vent the lower ends and either the ridge or the gable ends. To vent properly, the cooler air enters the lower vents and as it warms up it rises and vents out the top. This keeps the roof from icing up. However, with your steep pitch and metal roof, that is less of a concern than a shingled roof. Is your roof simply rafters or is it some sort of truss?


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well the proof is in the pudding.....or so I've heard that said.
> 
> With the intake raised......



this looks pretty good..........i don't think i want a m tronic.......looks pretty good lol. wish ya had some big oak and a 32 on it.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 17, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Sorry, lost the text, computer slow. No roof vent yet Brian.



Vented sofit is pointless if the air has nowhere to go , if you have a big enough ridge vent and vented sofit on the sides of your house it will breathe fine , my dad never puts vented sofit on gables , just gable end vents


----------



## Milkman31 (Jan 17, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> I agree with Wiggs. Stop sharing so much of your trade secrets. No need in it at this point.


He can share all the information he wonts to and 99% of us still couldn't port a saw with him here holding our hand.


----------



## Milkman31 (Jan 17, 2015)

This jug came off the 394 I got as a project saw for Christmas. This guy needs to watch some porting videos. I bet he thought tis thing is going to be a bad a$$ lol!! Had 60 psi after he honed the piss out of it lol!!


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

Hey Randy do the other stihl m tronic saws have a poly flywheel.


----------



## Ray Bell (Jan 17, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Speaking of stealing lunches, some city workers in Hamilton Ontario got fired for bringing hash brownies to work.
> Another co worker got into the guys lunch, ate some brownies and was rushed off by ambulance on a code 4
> I guess leaning on a shovel is dangerous when high.


Blessed be the Peacemaker


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Gypo- You don't need to vent those runs. You need to vent the lower ends and either the ridge or the gable ends. To vent properly, the cooler air enters the lower vents and as it warms up it rises and vents out the top. This keeps the roof from icing up. However, with your steep pitch and metal roof, that is less of a concern than a shingled roof. Is your roof simply rafters or is it some sort of truss?


Doug I have 2x8 rafters at 2' centres. I'll be using 2'x4'x 4" foam insulation in roof and under the floor. 
Hope its enough.


----------



## Four Paws (Jan 17, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Doug I have 2x8 rafters at 2' centres. I'll be using 2'x4'x 4" foam insulation in roof and under the floor.
> Hope its enough.



Any possibility of spraying the floor? I hear that urethane stuff or whatever they spray is really nice stuff for cabins in harsh climates.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> Hey Randy do the other stihl m tronic saws have a poly flywheel.


461 isnt mtronics but they come with a poly


----------



## coltont (Jan 17, 2015)

I'm talking 261 362 441


----------



## KG441c (Jan 17, 2015)

Metal


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

Four Paws said:


> Any possibility of spraying the floor? I hear that urethane stuff or whatever they spray is really nice stuff for cabins in harsh climates.


I was thinking of that, but they tell me the floor joists aren't to code. When it's up to clad I get title. Then I'll sell and do it all over again.
Btw, the coldest ever recorded here was minus 83F in Snag Yukon.


----------



## AKDoug (Jan 17, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Doug I have 2x8 rafters at 2' centres. I'll be using 2'x4'x 4" foam insulation in roof and under the floor.
> Hope its enough.


It's less than I like to see, but you have to run with what you've got. I get by with 1 1/2" of airspace above the insulation in my rafters. In my neck of the woods those rafters wouldn't make code, but I have no clue what they hit you with for snow load. Using standard polystyrene foam insulation, 4" is only about R-20, which is about 1/2 of what we like to see in Alaska. I'd seriously consider putting in 6", though. The other option is to put 6" in the rafters, leaving a 1 1/2" airspace about, then put a layer of 2" 4x8 foam insulation over the entire ceiling over the rafters. You loose 2" of head space, but a bunch more insulation.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

coltont said:


> Hey Randy do the other stihl m tronic saws have a poly flywheel.



All metal. 

I think I'm picking up what you're putting down here.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> It's less than I like to see, but you have to run with what you've got. I get by with 1 1/2" of airspace above the insulation in my rafters. In my neck of the woods those rafters wouldn't make code, but I have no clue what they hit you with for snow load. Using standard polystyrene foam insulation, 4" is only about R-20, which is about 1/2 of what we like to see in Alaska. I'd seriously consider putting in 6", though. The other option is to put 6" in the rafters, leaving a 1 1/2" airspace about, then put a layer of 2" 4x8 foam insulation over the entire ceiling over the rafters. You loose 2" of head space, but a bunch more insulation.


Not much snow here Doug, maybe 2 or 3 ft at the most.
I do have two inch foam as well, so I can add that. The rafters should have been 2x12.
I sure aint no carpenter lol.


----------



## Stihlman441 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well the proof is in the pudding.....or so I've heard that said.
> 
> With the intake raised......




If thats withn the same chain as the last vids then its 2 to 3 seconds faster than before.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

Stihlman441 said:


> If thats withn the same chain as the last vids then its 2 to 3 seconds faster than before.



Same chain.......never touched it.


----------



## deye223 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Trying something outside the box.....
> 
> 
> View attachment 393721



gday Randy , i use the steel one for bedding bolt rifles works a treat


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

deye223 said:


> gday Randy , i use the steel one for bedding bolt rifles works a treat



Well hello Darren. 

Good to see you my friend.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 17, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Metal


----------



## deye223 (Jan 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well hello Darren.
> 
> Good to see you my friend.


you too mate i hope all is well your way ........ i have only just found this thread  very good stuff as usual
how was the lasagna on monday night .

cheers D


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 17, 2015)

The lasazana.....lazanga......noodle stuff was great.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jan 17, 2015)

Any of you guys work with the Devcon stuff, enough to know IF they have anything
that you could use to build a brush holder for a "12-volt" automotive alternator?
I'm talking about as an equal to the factory part in longevity, temperature tolerances etc...
Reason for asking? I want to run a more properly sized set of brushes in one.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 18, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> Any of you guys work with the Devcon stuff, enough to know IF they have anything
> that you could use to build a brush holder for a "12-volt" automotive alternator?
> I'm talking about as an equal to the factory part in longevity, temperature tolerances etc...
> Reason for asking? I want to run a more properly sized set of brushes in one.


Belzona 1121


----------



## jsmith40004 (Jan 18, 2015)

Randy I'm glad you keep posting the new info that you learn. 

If it wasn't posted some other porters would just buy one of your saws and copy the numbers and work. 

It's happened before on this sight

Would a full circle crank help these saws as much as raising the port floor?

James


----------



## KG441c (Jan 18, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> Any of you guys work with the Devcon stuff, enough to know IF they have anything
> that you could use to build a brush holder for a "12-volt" automotive alternator?
> I'm talking about as an equal to the factory part in longevity, temperature tolerances etc...
> Reason for asking? I want to run a more properly sized set of brushes in one.


http://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1111.aspx


----------



## Yukon Stihl (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi Randy
I used some of the metal version of that epoxy on some bushings on the air ride of one of my Macks.So far there hasn't been any sign of it breaking down in that environment.
Is there a spot that you could drill and tap through the jugs intake and the epoxy from the outside and locktite in a small bolt to anchor the epoxy in place should it decide to come loose.Or maybe a roll pin or two from the outside.
Thomas


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 18, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I never did get a real good "looking" cut today......I ran a little fuel through the saw noodling a few big nasties. Then filed the chain.
> 
> Just about rolled the round over on me  but here's that vid.
> 
> ...



Randy what % gains do you think you have achieved on this 661


----------



## drf255 (Jan 18, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Changing the mix ratio to 40 or 32 to 1 will also increase the octane because oil will not burn as fast as gas.


Can someone confirm this?

My understanding, at least in 4 strokes, was just the opposite. Excessive connecting rod side clearance in a 4 stroke sprays the cylinder with more oil which causes a mixture with gas and causes MORE detonation. Oil burns slower, but does that mean it's more detonation resistant?

Perhaps I was taught wrong. 

Also, Randy, please don't stop posting pics of your work. A lot of us find it very interesting.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jan 18, 2015)

It's early and I'm not coffeed up yet, so this is just some wild speculation of my own.

I can imagine if an excessive amount of oil, was making it's way into the combustion chamber,
That you'd be getting some carbon build up.
Now the the carbon will occupy some of the chamber space and thus raise the effective
compression ratio. That much I'm confidant of.
Now when the carbon gets pretty thick, it has been known to have some places
that catch enough of the (normal) combustion cycle heat for these places to begin igniting
your incoming fuel/air charge.
This would give you a knocking noise. depending on when it occurs, perhaps a little before the spark plug is fired (pre-igniton) or a bit later, say after the plug has lit the mix,
Then it can cause an extra pressure wave to race out fron it's hot spot and when that crashes into
the pressure wave from the normaly intended, spark igniton,
You can get such a sharp pressure rise from the two waves combined, that it hits the cylinder walls and head so hard that it sounds like something metallic is hitting them.
Either way that this second or unwanted ignition of the fuel is bad for the motor.
That clattering is as hard on things as whacking them with a hammer, if let happen enough.

Now hopefully someone with a better education and its accompanying vocabulary 
will provide us all with a proper, scientific explanation.


----------



## weedkilla (Jan 18, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Can someone confirm this?
> 
> My understanding, at least in 4 strokes, was just the opposite. Excessive connecting rod side clearance in a 4 stroke sprays the cylinder with more oil which causes a mixture with gas and causes MORE detonation. Oil burns slower, but does that mean it's more detonation resistant?
> 
> ...


You are right and wrong. Oil in fuel increases octane rating, but there is more than octane rating that determines knock resistance in fuel. 
One of the reasons oil in the combustion chamber of a 4 stroke makes detonation worse is excess carbon build up, creating hotspots where detonation begins. 
The other reason is it's not all of the components of engine oil that get into the combustion chamber, it's the fumes that have been whipped out of the oil by the crank. This can be pretty nasty combustible mix when mixed with petrol and air.
The list goes on, but you probably get the point. 

Then think about how many dollars go into developing a reasonable budget race car engine, then imagine paying 100k for a chainsaw engine..... 
This isn't knife edge tuning.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 18, 2015)

jsmith40004 said:


> Randy I'm glad you keep posting the new info that you learn.
> 
> If it wasn't posted some other porters would just buy one of your saws and copy the numbers and work.
> 
> ...



I don't think it would James. I do believe that we need the case volume to support this 90cc saw. 

Also, although that would decrease case volume, I don't think case compression would be increased like it would by closing the intake sooner. 



Yukon Stihl said:


> Hi Randy
> I used some of the metal version of that epoxy on some bushings on the air ride of one of my Macks.So far there hasn't been any sign of it breaking down in that environment.
> Is there a spot that you could drill and tap through the jugs intake and the epoxy from the outside and locktite in a small bolt to anchor the epoxy in place should it decide to come loose.Or maybe a roll pin or two from the outside.
> Thomas



I drilled some divots to anchor the epoxy. I think it will be ok. 

I'd rather keep it in one large piece.......if I drill thru it, could it crack apart possibly? 



Stihl working hard said:


> Randy what % gains do you think you have achieved on this 661



I have no idea.


----------



## old-cat (Jan 18, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I drilled some divots to anchor the epoxy. I think it will be ok.


I bet that is the right approach but I'm thinking the divots need to be deeper?


----------



## Mike from Maine (Jan 18, 2015)

Is there a video comparing a stock vs ported 661?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 18, 2015)

old-cat said:


> I bet that is the right approach but I'm thinking the divots need to be deeper?



I'll do just that on the next one Lynn.


----------



## bryanr2 (Jan 18, 2015)

"In Mastermind we Trust"


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 18, 2015)

jsmith40004 said:


> Randy I'm glad you keep posting the new info that you learn.
> 
> If it wasn't posted some other porters would just buy one of your saws and copy the numbers and work.
> 
> ...



Randy has given a step by step tutorial on more than one occasion. I think on the ms261 one of the other porters tried it Randy's way, found Randy's way to be significantly better, then went back to his old way because he just "knew" that his way was better. 

Is that thread still around?


----------



## DSS (Jan 18, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> Randy has given a step by step tutorial on more than one occasion. I think on the ms261 one of the other porters tried it Randy's way, found Randy's way to be significantly better, then went back to his old way because he just "knew" that his way was better.
> 
> Is that thread still around?



I'm quite sure you'll find it.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 18, 2015)

DSS said:


> I'm quite sure you'll find it.



I ain't got that kinda time, what with herding rifraf all day and whatnots.


----------



## DSS (Jan 18, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> I ain't got that kinda time, what with herding rifraf all day and whatnots.



Plus you're uneducated to start with, like the rest of us.


----------



## jsmith40004 (Jan 18, 2015)

I was thinking 7-8 years ago when he was starting


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 18, 2015)

thomas1 said:


> Randy has given a step by step tutorial on more than one occasion. I think on the ms261 one of the other porters tried it Randy's way, found Randy's way to be significantly better, then went back to his old way because he just "knew" that his way was better.
> 
> Is that thread still around?



http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ms261-vs-ms261-c-m-comparison.243686/


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks, Brody. Lots of good info in that one.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 18, 2015)

One of my favorites.

Here's a good one too.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ms461-giveaway-saw-build-thread.246494/


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 18, 2015)

Better get some screenshots, tears are washing things away, again.

Peace and chicken grease.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 18, 2015)

Not because of me.......I'm minding my own business.


----------



## VinceGU05 (Jan 18, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> One of my favorites.
> 
> Here's a good one too.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ms461-giveaway-saw-build-thread.246494/


one of my favorite saws that one!


----------



## scallywag (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm thinking something like this might work on the 661 intake floor, this ones epoxy, if I was going to use something like this I'd cast it from aluminium and heat treat it.


----------



## scallywag (Jan 19, 2015)

The intake boot and clamp and maybe some Loctite should hold it in place nicely


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2015)

bryanr2 said:


> "In Mastermind we Trust"


All others pay cash.


----------



## scallywag (Jan 19, 2015)

Maybe two tangs/locators would be better And for good measure a centre punch in each tang!.. Or go even further and heat shrink the insert in then centre punch it!


----------



## Yukon Stihl (Jan 19, 2015)

Hi Randy
Ok here's another thought........
Before applying the epoxy,drill a couple of holes into the intake floor and insert a couple of pins,then apply the epoxy and it will form and glue to the pins.You could cut some reliefs into the pins for additional holding.
That should eliminate any chance of the epoxy cracking due to drilling.
Thomas


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

I've spend the weekend doing more R&D on the MDS661. 

I think I've got them nailed down right where I want them now.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)




----------



## Fire8 (Jan 25, 2015)

Next level Port Work 
Somewhere between Ported work,Next Level, Race


----------



## ktoom (Jan 25, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> View attachment 398160



Thats awsome Randy!!! Something new?


----------



## MontanaResident (Jan 25, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Not everybody has the bucks to buy the latest fad in feller bunchers.


 
Only the really big BIG stuff is done manually around here, and by a select few that have the proper license. The only exceptions are local firewood cutters, and not a lot of that either as much off the road it's not worth it.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 25, 2015)

MontanaResident said:


> Only the really big BIG stuff is done manually around here, and by a select few that have the proper *license*. The only exceptions are local firewood cutters, and not a lot of that either as much off the road it's not worth it.



Does Montana require a license to cut timber now?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

Fire8 said:


> Next level Port Work
> Somewhere between Ported work,Next Level, Race



Not really Danny......I never want to build saw engines that aren't able to work for a living. A chainsaw is a tool, and should able to be used all day, everyday, no matter the temperature, or enviroment.

Next level refers to the amount of time I put in to learning about each model to be sure I'm getting good solid, repeatable gains. 

I like to think we take porting chainsaws to The Next Level.  



ktoom said:


> Thats awsome Randy!!! Something new?



No.......I mark em all......if I remember to.


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 25, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> View attachment 398160


Any pics Randy


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

Sure.......


----------



## coltont (Jan 25, 2015)

I love how they start in 2 pulls. Even when it's -1 in the landing


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jan 25, 2015)

i am of the oppinion that any sthil that don't start in two pulls has a problem.


----------



## coltont (Jan 25, 2015)

I concur. It's just amazing how the dammed thing just wakes up all of the sudden once it's warmed up


----------



## Moparmyway (Jan 25, 2015)

Stihl working hard said:


> Any pics Randy





Mastermind said:


> Sure.......



OK, cards against the chest I see .............
Hows about the latest & greatest in a video ?


----------



## psuiewalsh (Jan 25, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Not really Danny......I never want to build saw engines that aren't able to work for a living. A chainsaw is a tool, and should able to be used all day, everyday, no matter the temperature, or enviroment.
> 
> Next level refers to the amount of time I put in to learning about each model to be sure I'm getting good solid, repeatable gains.
> 
> ...



When do we see the new stickers?? And serial numbered cylinders? I want #100000.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

Modded....



Latest & greatest.....


----------



## Zero_sum (Jan 25, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i am of the oppinion that any sthil that don't start in two pulls has a problem.


Definitely something wrong with our 660 then.... our backpack blower yes. That thing is a champ.


----------



## MustangMike (Jan 25, 2015)

That's almost as fast as the 044!


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 25, 2015)

That 661 even sounds way healthier than a 660.

...and its carrying the mail to boot!


----------



## gunnusmc03 (Jan 25, 2015)

That 661 is a beast


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 25, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Modded....
> 
> 
> 
> Latest & greatest.....



Will all 661's be ported the same as this one now Randy now you have found the sweet spot


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 25, 2015)

It depends on what the owner wants. If they are ok with the Devcon in the intake....then, yes, this is what I will do on them all. 

There's just no way to get these gains without shortening the intake duration.


----------



## CR888 (Jan 26, 2015)

l don't see a problem with Devcon, its one of those things that only work well if correct preperation is done and from the pics Randy has posted on this l think he is utilising/installing it very well. You gotta do what yo gotta do with performance and l think its great how his approach evolves as tue market releases new design and tech. He has always had the 'make what is already there better' philosophy rather than to 'reinvent the wheel' so to speak. These 661's are great build saws, l want one!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

There are a few other saws that have too much intake timing.......

This opens up a world of possibilities to me.


----------



## Stihl working hard (Jan 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> There are a few other saws that have too much intake timing.......
> 
> This opens up a world of possibilities to me.


I can hear your brain ticking over from here Randy


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

Can you smell smoke? That's the rust burning off the gears.


----------



## DSS (Jan 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Can you smell smoke? That's the rust burning off the gears. [emoji23]


----------



## cuttinties (Jan 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> There are a few other saws that have too much intake timing.......
> 
> This opens up a world of possibilities to me.


660 comes to mind


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2015)

cuttinties said:


> 660 comes to mind


 390xp too


----------



## Outlaw5.0 (Jan 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> 390xp too


Reminds I need to get off my butt and get the jug off mine and send it down to you to cut the chamber and base.


----------



## mt.stalker (Jan 26, 2015)

Stihl working hard said:


> I can hear your brain ticking over from here Randy


That might be his bones creaking ;-)


----------



## walexa07 (Jan 27, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> That's almost as fast as the 044!



Randy may not be running an HD2 and dual port muffler cover on the 661, lol.

Waylan


----------



## nk14zp (Mar 12, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It would include bridges and fingers. You might have noticed that I try just bridges, or just fingers, and sometimes both. I'm still learning you know....
> 
> Also think about the size of those bridges and fingers. They* likely* (I have no way to be certain) flow at a high velocity because they are small......right?
> 
> ...


This is my theory that I'm trying. Shallow fingers that taper in depth ie no sharp turn up top so the velocity is high and the charge is aimed to start filling the chamber from the top down. The fingers go a few tho above the transfers.
PS I'm a hack not a porter.


----------



## KG441c (Mar 12, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> This is my theory that I'm trying. Shallow fingers that taper in depth ie no sharp turn up top so the velocity is high and the charge is aimed to start filling the chamber from the top down. The fingers go a few tho above the transfers.
> PS I'm a hack not a porter.


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 6, 2016)

Is this the new "Rep" thread?


----------



## deye223 (Feb 6, 2016)

don't know but your about 11 months late to the party


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 6, 2016)

deye223 said:


> don't know but your about 11 months late to the party


REPPED!


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 6, 2016)

Jon1212 said:


> REPPED!


Reported!


----------



## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 6, 2016)




----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 6, 2016)

Deets066 said:


> Reported!



IGNORED!

Are you only here to cause trouble? Riff raff.


----------



## bryanr2 (Feb 6, 2016)

y'all need to get a life.


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 6, 2016)

bryanr2 said:


> y'all need to get a life.



Why are you following me around? Troll!


----------



## bryanr2 (Feb 6, 2016)

Jon1212 said:


> Why are you following me around? Troll!


I thawt we was fwends. fwends stick together. DUH


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 6, 2016)

bryanr2 said:


> I thawt we was fwends. fwends stick together. DUH



Troof!


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 7, 2016)

Where is everyone?


----------



## cgraham1 (Feb 7, 2016)

Did I miss something?


----------



## nk14zp (Feb 10, 2016)

Never fear I am here.


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 10, 2016)

nk14zp said:


> Never fear I am here.


Sup? Mang........


----------



## beentown (Feb 10, 2016)

Why are these old threads being dredged up? 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 10, 2016)

beentown said:


> Why are these old threads being dredged up?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



Because they are more interesting than most of the "new" threads. 

You've been a member all of what? Six weeks? Why do you care? 

Also, please adjust your Tapatalk settings. Nobody cares what kind of phone you have.

Oh yeah, welcome to AS.


----------



## beentown (Feb 10, 2016)

Jon1212 said:


> Because they are more interesting than most of the "new" threads.
> 
> You've been a member all of what? Six weeks? Why do you care?
> 
> ...


Your reply confirms why old threads are dragged up, spite.

80% of this site is full of great stuff, the amount of butthurt is just astounding.

I had to replace my phone and was going to change the sig but I will leave it just for you. Everytime you see it know it is like a big sloppy kiss so that you may stop being so....um....err....butthurt.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Agr516 (Feb 10, 2016)

These old posts are definitely more interesting than anything else going on here right now. This place went to crap in a hurry. Really not sure why I even look at it any more.


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 10, 2016)

beentown said:


> Your reply confirms why old threads are dragged up, spite.
> 
> 80% of this site is full of great stuff, the amount of butthurt is just astounding.
> 
> ...



Oh yay! So you are immediately going to play that way, huh?

How did you get "spite" out of my previous post? 

Talk about being "butthurt"........is this attitude a result of you being permanently banned? So now you came back with a new username, but the same old hostile troll demeanor, dragging your agenda behind you.


----------



## beentown (Feb 10, 2016)

Nope, never banned. Lurked before but that was about it. 

From a prospective of someone outside looking in....Many just seem and post like bitter men with nothing better to do. Like their life revolves around a forum and they are getting WAY to emotional about it. So now they troll and look like one to other members.

Just seems it would be easier to move on and stay positive. I am sure there are other outlets for talking about tree work and equipment.

If this one doesn't live up to your emotional expectations maybe another will? I would not keep coming back to a place that you seem to have so much disdain toward. Seems childish.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 10, 2016)

beentown said:


> Nope, never banned. Lurked before but that was about it.
> 
> From a prospective of someone outside looking in....Many just seem and post like bitter men with nothing better to do. Like their life revolves around a forum and they are getting WAY to emotional about it. So now they troll and look like one to other members.
> 
> ...



LOL! That was a very good post. You are obviously not the average lurker. 

My disdain is generally limited to people, and situations. However, from my *per*spective, one does not know all of the finite details of any situation without having extensive research, and/or experience.


----------



## Del_ (Feb 10, 2016)

beentown said:


> Nope, never banned. Lurked before but that was about it.
> 
> From a prospective of someone outside looking in....Many just seem and post like bitter men with nothing better to do. Like their life revolves around a forum and they are getting WAY to emotional about it. So now they troll and look like one to other members.
> 
> ...



Good to see you joined up.

You nailed the butthurt, pun intended!

Don't give Jon too hard a time though. 

We'd hate to lose our poster boy for the spiteful butthurt.


----------



## beentown (Feb 10, 2016)

Oh I get that I don't have ANY details. 

Again, from my prospective (6 weeks with occasional lurks for a few years) the details don't matter. If I were so pissed or agitated at a place I visit...I would try to steer it to what I find enjoyable or just deal. If that didn't work I would take my knowledge and personality to another venue.

If at the other venue I have the same issues then maybe I would look in a mirror. Just like life...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 10, 2016)

Del_ said:


> Good to see you joined up.
> 
> You nailed the butthurt, pun intended!



Hey look, it's the Arborisite Rapper _Notorious PRP.........
_
Pretty comical for you to talk about "butthurt", since you are the person(gender ambiguity implied) to report more posts than any other member of Arboristsite. This is not heresay, as I was given this information by a fairly recent former moderator.


----------



## Del_ (Feb 10, 2016)

Jon1212 said:


> Hey look, it's the Arborisite Rapper _Notorious PRP........._



Wow you ooze terminal butthurt from every pore!

What's your purpose here again?

Get well soon poster boy.


----------



## beentown (Feb 10, 2016)

Also, I will apologize for being a bit "strong" in my initial reply.

I was reading threads and thinking if I was going to stay as an "active" member because of all the pissing and moaning. You just happen to be the thread I decided to reply to in full.

Too much info in here for me to leave the forum at this point but I was weighing it out. 

I was part of a very active hunting site that became negative and almost all the "senior members" left and made a new site. Now the new site has 10x the traffic as the old. The old was the go-to and had 10 years on the new site. Content and attitude drives a site. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jon1212 (Feb 10, 2016)

beentown said:


> Also, I will apologize for being a bit "strong" in my initial reply.
> 
> I was reading threads and thinking if I was going to stay as an "active" member because of all the pissing and moaning. You just happen to be the thread I decided to reply to in full.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I apologize for being sarcastic without humor, in my first reply to you.

The backstory here is way too extensive to even broach, and your example of how a site changes is spot on.


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