# Master Arborist or Master's Degree?



## Ed Roland (Sep 2, 2008)

Comparable? Which one would you consider?

opcorn:


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## treeseer (Sep 2, 2008)

What is your goal?


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## S Mc (Sep 2, 2008)

Whereas I also think it might depend on your goals, both are going to demand a great deal of time and dedication to achieve. 

For me, starting later in life, having a full time job, gaining a master's degree at this point is probably not feasible, so I personally would opt for the Master Arborist credentialing. But with that said, I do not mean to imply that it is somehow "easier" just that my field experience is providing some of the baseline knowledge necessary.

I would also state that the field experience that GENERALLY master arborists possess is indispensible. This seems to be a common complaint from the "working stiff" encountering the "book knowledge" certified expert, that they do not comprehend the real world of trees. And we have run into that ourselves, where someone who has read a great deal can quote line and verse on what "should be" done, but doesn't have the practical experience to apply what that really means. Trees haven't read the books and often seem to follow their own rules.

Conversely, if your goal is to teach, the masters degree is probably mandatory for credentialing in that field. 

So both are worthy goals and probably could bring you to the same end. I would hesitate to say one is better than the other, just possibly more personally applicable.

Sylvia


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## Ed Roland (Sep 2, 2008)

treeseer said:


> What is your goal?




Optimize career options. Now that my wife is practicing medicine I have the kind of time needed to invest in some more training. Just looking to step up to a higher level professionally, if you will.


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## EngineerDude (Sep 3, 2008)

What kind of Master's degree? And from where? I did an MBA a few years back, and aside from the $$ my company gave me at completion and the "don't have to outrun the bear ..." advantage (see blow), it's basically worthless. From my viewpoint, in the world of MBA's, Harvard, Carnegie Mellon, Sloan and Darden are all in the top tier, and all the others (like mine) are "also ran's".

If it's some kind of practical degree, such as a masters in engineering, it's a different game. But if you're asking the question, you probably already know this.

(OK, as to outrunning the bear, it's an old joke. Two guys in the woods, they see a bear. Bear starts running toward them, and they both turn and start running too. One guy stops, takes off his backpack, starts changing to running shoes. Other guy says "Are you nuts, you're not going to outrun that bear. First guy says "Don't need to outrun the bear, just need to outrun you!" As this relates to an MBA, if your company has to lay off someone, and the choice comes down to two people, and if all other things are equal, they'll generally keep the guy with the MBA.)


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## memetic (Sep 3, 2008)

I think a Master's Degree will provide more and more diverse options in the future, so if you have the resources I would go that route. Just my opinion.


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## treeseer (Sep 3, 2008)

BCMA tests on practical knowledge of consulting arb. With your apparent level of expertise, you'd only need to brush up on your weak areas, pay the $350, and take the test. The CEU's are fairly painless to get over time.

For an M.S., budget min. 2 yrs and $XX,000.00. Yes it may qualify you to teach in the U system, but you can do a lot of education outside of that system. If you have a topic that you are hot to explore as a thesis, and a prof you want to explore it with, and a job you may want that requires that ticket to be punched, it may be worthwhile. 

Why not get the BCMA, then design an Independent Study course in your area of interest with a willing professor, and see how that goes?

Hey, Teacher, leave those kids alone!
Or maybe teachers can stand back a little and watch over students teaching themselves, as long as they are ready. Colleges offer Independent Study and Special Topics options for students who want to study “outside the box” by looking into a particular question that is not covered in a course. Some recent examples of Independent Study topics that arborists have undertaken: “What is the nature of wood decay, and can it be managed?”, “How do sprouts grow from the end of a broken branch, and can they be trained into safe branches?”, and “What are the most important insect pests in our state, and how can we control them?” There are only two ingredients needed for successful projects: a motivated student with a plan, and a faculty member (often a former professor of the student) who is willing to guide it. Independent Study can be very rewarding, leading to journal publications and grants from the TREE Fund and other sources.

All in all its just another brick in the wall…
Or maybe it’s a load of CEU bricks that help build the wall that holds up your arborist certification. The ISA Certification Board approved some changes in the CEU policy effective as of July 1, 2005. Previously, college courses were worth 10 credits, or 15 with a laboratory component. College courses are now worth 10 CEU's per credit hour. For example, a 3-hour college course is now worth 30 CEUs. Do the math—one college course can now satisfy about three years of certification. This may or may not be overrated in proportion with other CEU opportunities, depending on the course and the work that goes into it. Of course, you can never earn too many CEUs. As always, college course work must be at an academically accredited 2-year or 4-year institution. 

Human capital works to increase growth and enable enrichment for the employee, just as equipment capital such as trucks and tools work for the employer. Today, we consider human capital as the sum of education, natural talent, training, and experience. These fundamental assets fill the fountain from which future fortunes flow. Adding to our education is like depositing money in the bank. This process of training the brain and accumulating knowledge can be envisioned as stacking bricks of gold in our own personal Fort Knox. Shigo again: “Remember, ‘learn’ has ‘earn’ in it. The more you learn, the more you earn.” Education earns interest as it’s called upon to help us deal with new job challenges. Unlike trucks and tools and other forms of capital, it keeps increasing in value.

All in all you’re just another brick in the wall.
But that doesn’t mean there are bricks in your head. Climbing trees and other physical aspects of arboriculture can be fun and profitable, but if you start exercising your mental muscles early in your career, you can continue to experience upward mobility even after your body tells you to get down from the trees. This article has highlighted just a few of the many programs of higher education that are available to those who want to grow into the business of tree care. Shop around for different higher education opportunities before you register. Be sure you’re barking up the right tree, or you may wind up howling on the dark side of the moon!

Training and education are the “meat” of any career, building muscles with the strength to advance. We in the tree business are envied for our ability to enjoy what we are doing, but we know that enjoyment is dessert, like chocolate pudding after we have eaten a nutritious meal.

How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat?


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## Ed Roland (Sep 4, 2008)




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## Groundman One (Sep 4, 2008)

We're loving the *Floyd*, brother.


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## treeseer (Sep 4, 2008)

Groundman One said:


> We're loving the *Floyd*, brother.


Me too.  My kids were playing the song when i was having writers block and blam--It made the article fun and easy to write--having the tune in my head kept it rollin'. Funny the editor didn't think most readers would "get it", and insisted the title get changed from "We don't need no education".

Page 54 here: http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_MAG_March_07.pdf


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## Ed Roland (Oct 30, 2008)

in real time:

masters you can sit @ a microscope and identify causals for 40K +.

With BCMA you can actually touch a living tree for 40K +.

haha how narrow was that?


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## Ekka (Oct 31, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> in real time:
> 
> masters you can sit @ a microscope and identify causals for 40K +.
> 
> ...



Not quite, with the Masters (depending which field) many wont be able to do the job unless they have it, with the BCMA the next illegal is your competitor.  

Carefully note who writes and does what, Dr Shigo .... hmmm, doctor. Dr Kim Coder, hmmm, doctor. Professor Dr Klaus Mattheck, hmmm, doctorate also, and like the others also a professor.

The academic community runs far further and deeper.

But the poll is biased as is running on a site where I'd say less than 10% of the people got any quals let alone a Masters. Run the poll at a university and see the answer.


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## pdqdl (Oct 31, 2008)

A masters degree is an education, certified by the schools that issue it.

The BCMA is fundamentally an opinion, given/sold by ISA to individuals that ask them to give them a test.

While there are vastly more individuals with Masters degrees in forestry, botany, etc, they paid for an education, the content and quality of which depends on the school attended. Nearly every adult with any exposure to higher education knows what is involved with getting a masters degree.

The BCMA is not widely recognized outside of our tiny niche of arborists, and probably means nearly nothing to the average citizen. In my opinion, ISA is borrowing heavily from the medical community when they use the phrase "Board Certified" to get better recognition of the title. 

If you are a physician, being "Board Certified" in your field means that you have completed a large amount of special training in your field, and that you are absolutely qualified in that area of expertise. While there is a certification process, and there are experience and continuing education requirements, the ISA standards are not nearly as comprehensive and formally regulated as the medical "Board Certification" requirements. But then, look at how big and well funded the AMA is.

For the most part, a medical "Board Certificaton" is required to practice your specialty or to work for a hospital. It isn't just a trade certification, it's a job requirement.

The requirements for getting the ISA BCMA are probably as rigorous as they can establish for our trade, which is not exactly driven by expectations of high standards by our customers.


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## treeseer (Oct 31, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> In my opinion, ISA is borrowing heavily from the medical community when they use the phrase "Board Certified" to get better recognition of the title.


Lawyers and many other professions use the phrase, for the very reasons you describe.

"The requirements for getting the ISA BCMA are probably as rigorous as they can establish for our trade, which is not exactly driven by expectations of high standards by our customers."

What does this mean? :monkey:


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## pdqdl (Oct 31, 2008)

Our trade is the business of arboriculture.

ISA has (in my opinion) established ruled as rigorous as they can.

Perhaps this is what is giving you trouble: "_which is not exactly driven by expectations of high standards by our customers_." Arboriculture (our trade) is often funded by customers whose primary purpose is not to adhere to the ideal standards often suggested by ISA. In fact, our customers usually don't know a good tree trimming from a poor one, and topping is often demanded, along with many other questionable practices. Frequently, our customers often only want what they can afford and MUST be done to avert a catastrophe, which invariable does not coincide with standards established by ISA. Add this customer base to the long list of tree services that don't know what good tree service is, and often are known for their shady practices, lack of proper management, and the general trend towards uneducated workers, and you get a customer base that has LOW expectations of the industry.

Did you get it that time ? 

Perhaps you were reading between the lines for a deeper meaning. Nope. I pretty much mean exactly what I say, and nothing more.


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## lxt (Oct 31, 2008)

there is no comparison!! *MASTERS DEGREE* is much better than a BCMA.......waaayyyy better!

give it 3-5yrs and there will be another cert. above BCMA, we talked about certs before & how they keep coming up with new, more expensive and supposedly better more knowledgeable criteria to bless us with!!

right now BCMA is it, 5yrs ago a CA was it!! we`ll see whats next!

a Masters Degree..............priceless & will get you into more career situations with a much higher wage than BCMA ever, ever, ever will!!!!



LXT...........


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## treeseer (Oct 31, 2008)

"Add this customer base to the long list of tree services that don't know what good tree service is, and often are known for their shady practices, lack of proper management, and the general trend towards uneducated workers, and you get a customer base that has LOW expectations of the industry."

OK, I did not get it before because the customer base in my area has pretty high expectations of arborists, which is why after 16 (not 5) years they are not satisfied with some certified arborists, and ask for a BCMA.

From what I read, the newest certification is aerial lift, and ground worker has been proposed. Call it a cash grab if you want, but if these certs enhance safety maybe they are not so bad.


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## BCMA (Oct 31, 2008)

I cannot really add to what has already been said about the difference between a masters degree and the BCMA. Treeseer and others have covered this well. A masters degree will give you a path into education, academia, research, teaching, etc. I believe that it is a longer road than the BCMA.

The BCMA will test your knowledge and experience in the science and field work of caring for trees. If you want to be a practicing arborist, a BCMA may be more practical. 

Let’s take this a step forward. I think it is good to have the attitude of lifelong learning. The more I learn, the more I realize what I do not know. The more I learn, the more I realize I do not know much. Learning answers questions, but can also leave you with more questions that need answering. I’m an advocate for lifelong learning. It’s not just the credentials, it’s the attitude towards learning that will give you fulfillment and progress your career. 

The ISA and the TCIA have put together many tremendous resources for study and learning. Avail yourself to these. Dedicate yourself to study. This will be your best investment.

Does education pay. Yes. You become more valuable with increased knowledge, and people are willing to pay for this. There are many people who do what we do, but there are fewer who understand why they do what they are doing.

I am always amazed at those who downplay education, learning, certifications, and credentials. This is the epitome of ignorance! You’re on the right road-pursue!


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## lxt (Nov 2, 2008)

Well I never down play education, but comparing a Masters Degree to a Bcma is ridiculous!! where im at the Bcma would be valuable indeed, BUT..if I were graduating High school or even in my earl 20`s my choice would be get a Masters Degree!!!

The Bcma is a specialized Cert., remember that....its a certification not a Degree, the MS will open doors to many career paths while the Bcma wouldnt even get you to the restroom in some of those places!!

As far as certs. being whipped up, yes now we have aerial bucket & groundman certs., WHY? It is a money grab bar none!! certain things the ISA should just leave to apprenticeships & on the job training!!! I understand the CA & Bcma these are knowledge tests!! the other certs. arent these positions are hands on & it takes time....no ISA skills test cert. should carry more weight than being trained on the job in these positions!!

Wait.......they`ll whip up more $$$ grabbing certs. pretty soon!! makes me mad & by the way Im a member & have been!!


LXT...........


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## BCMA (Nov 2, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well I never down play education, but comparing a Masters Degree to a Bcma is ridiculous!! where im at the Bcma would be valuable indeed, BUT..if I were graduating High school or even in my earl 20`s my choice would be get a Masters Degree!!!
> 
> The Bcma is a specialized Cert., remember that....its a certification not a Degree, the MS will open doors to many career paths while the Bcma wouldnt even get you to the restroom in some of those places!!
> 
> ...



Well I never down play education, but comparing a Masters Degree to a Bcma is ridiculous!! where im at the Bcma would be valuable indeed, BUT..if I were graduating High school or even in my earl 20`s my choice would be get a Masters Degree!!!

I agree. The BCMA is easy to achieve compared to a MS.

As far as certs. being whipped up, yes now we have aerial bucket & groundman certs., WHY? It is a money grab bar none!! 

In defense of the ISA, I do not believe that their main objective and goal is to develop programs for the sole purpose of making money. Their main goal and objective is to provide training, education, and research to our industry. I am in support of any and all training programs that will further our profession. We all have the right not to participate.

certain things the ISA should just leave to apprenticeships & on the job training!!! I understand the CA & Bcma these are knowledge tests!! the other certs. arent these positions are hands on & it takes time....no ISA skills test cert. should carry more weight than being trained on the job in these positions!!

A certification cannot take the place of the experience of on the job training. This is an important part of one increasing their skills. Certifications cannot take the place of OJT, but can enhance and encourage the training process.

Wait.......they`ll whip up more $$$ grabbing certs. pretty soon!! makes me mad & by the way Im a member & have been!! 

I'm glad your a member and hope you will continue to be. Consider availing yourself to other ISA and TCIA training material. I believe we can all benefit from this training material regardless of your experience and skill level.


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## lxt (Nov 3, 2008)

BCMA, I know what you are saying and you put it well!! I just dont see the "real" benefits in certain areas where they promote certification!!

Really....can you imagine a certified groundman? at what...raking, brooming, running the blower???? and dont even say running ropes, cause they have rigging classes and chainsaw safety cliniques all the time!!!

I just think they`re taking it to an ecessive level, & honestly how well trained could you possibly be after becoming an aerial lift specialist? wonder how the big companies would treat that?? I dont know!!!

Yes, I will remain a member....they have a lot of good going on and I have lots to still learn!!!


LXT...........


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## BCMA (Nov 3, 2008)

lxt said:


> BCMA, I know what you are saying and you put it well!! I just dont see the "real" benefits in certain areas where they promote certification!!
> 
> Really....can you imagine a certified groundman? at what...raking, brooming, running the blower???? and dont even say running ropes, cause they have rigging classes and chainsaw safety cliniques all the time!!!
> 
> ...



I see your point, and these are good things to think about.


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