# Worm holes in Oak and ERC



## phred45 (Jan 3, 2011)

Hope you all had a great Holiday Season. 
Finally had time to check on the oak slabs that I milled a few months ago. They looked pretty nice except for a couple of soft spots. During drying they cracked badly on the center. I cut through the cracks and the inside is black and split and there are worm holes in it. When the slabs were put up there was no evidence of worms or rot. Did they get into soft spots while the slabs were drying?

We are trying not to cut life trees and found a bunch of dead cedars in a grove that still look pretty good. Do I have to cut all the worm holed white wood off before I sticker them, will they get into all the other wood? 

While I’m asking for your advice – do you have any tricks on how to get tree sap out of clothes?


----------



## mtngun (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for the pics, phred45. I have no experience milling oak, but hopefully someone that does will come along. 

That other Forestry Forum has some threads on oak bugs in your neck of the woods, yes, they can bore all the way to the center. Only cure mentioned was heating in a kiln to 160 degrees F. Most people just live with the holes, it adds character to the wood.

I thought cedar was naturally bug resistant ?

Sap on gloves and jeans makes them tougher and longer lasting, I always say.


----------



## phred45 (Jan 3, 2011)

mtngun said:


> Thanks for the pics, phred45. I have no experience milling oak, but hopefully someone that does will come along.
> 
> That other Forestry Forum has some threads on oak bugs in your neck of the woods, yes, they can bore all the way to the center. Only cure mentioned was heating in a kiln to 160 degrees F. Most people just live with the holes, it adds character to the wood.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Mtngun,
I don't really mind the holes but am worried that they may get into the rest of the boards and turn them into saw dust. Erc gets attacked by several beetles, this is probably pine beetle damage, they are killing all our beautiful old pines. By the time the pines die the wood is so bad that it just falls apart. The grove I found the Erc in had one really big Pine that died first and then all the surrounding cedar was attacked. The only good thing is that a bunch of saplings from a deciduous tree are growing there now and look healthy. I'll try to find out what kind of tree when the leaves come out.


----------



## Marine5068 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Black and Red Capenter Ants:*

My neighbour just felled three large white cedar trees that were infested by black carpenter ants.
Our white cedars here are regularly drilled open by pileated woodpeckers to get at the nests of black and red carpenter ants. Pileated peckers are the largest wood pecker in North America and can drill into the heart of almost any tree. The large oval holes can be up to two feet long and very deep. When you see this in your tree, you know there are carpenter ants in there.
The ants love white cedar trees because they are large and repel most other insects from living in them.
Also white cedars can live over 800 years making them the oldest trees in the north woods, with the possible exception of some Aspen clones.
This information is all for LIVE trees. I'm sure old, dead stands of trees will attract a multitude of beetles, and ants and other drilling insects that lay their eggs inside dead wood.
Worm holes or larval holes are just the result of this.
You wood looks good though.
If you don't like the holes, you can always fill them in with the sawdust you make when cutting the pieces into usable lumber.
My friend is a cabinet maker and keeps different types of sawdust for this purpose. He simply fills the hole with crazy glue (or other glues) then adds the sawdust on top to fill the hole. He then sands it out to finish it.
Good Luck.
~Stan


----------



## mikeb1079 (Jan 3, 2011)

> My friend is a cabinet maker and keeps different types of sawdust for this purpose. He simply fills the hole with crazy glue (or other glues) then adds the sawdust on top to fill the hole. He then sands it out to finish it.



good tip stan. thanks!

hey phred, it looks like your oak may have dried out too fast. i've had trouble drying oak and have since read that it is a very slow drying wood. it's a must to keep it out of sunlight and let it dry slow. 

bug holes used to bother me, but i just decided to use those pieces for rustic applications. then it looks cool.
cheers
mb


----------



## huskyhank (Jan 3, 2011)

Sorry to say it -- but I think you have firewood there.


----------



## discounthunter (Jan 4, 2011)

some worm holes in oak is fine,but those big ones could cause problems,id suspect the grubs from "patent leather beetles".as far as ERC the white sap wood can be eaten by anything but the heart wood(red inside) wont be touched.something to keep in mind is to mill your ERC first,keep the shaving,then put them around your other wood,either sprinkling some between layers,maybe some on the ground,some on top even cloth bags full and hand them.no sense letting a good bug deterant go to waste.


----------



## Hillbilly3995 (Jan 4, 2011)

huskyhank said:


> Sorry to say it -- but I think you have firewood there.


 
Oh, stop candy coating it and say what you really think...


----------



## betterbuilt (Jan 4, 2011)

I have some oak that was cut and laying for around around 20 years in the log. I kinda felt the same way about it. It looked like firewood or mulch. The holes in mine were all vacant of bugs. I used a clear epoxy to fill the worm holes. 



White Oak Top


----------



## phred45 (Jan 4, 2011)

betterbuilt said:


> I have some oak that was cut and laying for around around 20 years in the log. I kinda felt the same way about it. It looked like firewood or mulch. The holes in mine were all vacant of bugs. I used a clear epoxy to fill the worm holes.
> 
> 
> 
> White Oak Top


 
Thanks Betterbuilt,
Unfortunately the holes still have life larva in some of them and we need most of the boards for structural wood, building a barn and a cabin. Here in Arkansas you can hardly ever find dead trees that are still usable they are turned into sawdust by beetles, ants and termites in a few years sometimes months.

Filling the holes for wood that is decorative or even indoor paneling should be ok. 

Lovely table top, I hope to try some furniture once the cabin is standing.


----------



## phred45 (Jan 4, 2011)

Marine5068 said:


> My neighbour just felled three large white cedar trees that were infested by black carpenter ants.
> Our white cedars here are regularly drilled open by pileated woodpeckers to get at the nests of black and red carpenter ants. Pileated peckers are the largest wood pecker in North America and can drill into the heart of almost any tree. The large oval holes can be up to two feet long and very deep. When you see this in your tree, you know there are carpenter ants in there.
> The ants love white cedar trees because they are large and repel most other insects from living in them.
> Also white cedars can live over 800 years making them the oldest trees in the north woods, with the possible exception of some Aspen clones.
> ...



Much as I love birds and wildlife, I wished the woodpeckers would go somewhere else. The damage they do is incredible. We have a big powerline run across the property and the poles are all wrapped with chickenwire at the top. The result of that is that the woodpeckers go lower and hollow them out there.
The sawdust idea is great for ornamental wood.


----------



## phred45 (Jan 4, 2011)

discounthunter said:


> some worm holes in oak is fine,but those big ones could cause problems,id suspect the grubs from "patent leather beetles".as far as ERC the white sap wood can be eaten by anything but the heart wood(red inside) wont be touched.something to keep in mind is to mill your ERC first,keep the shaving,then put them around your other wood,either sprinkling some between layers,maybe some on the ground,some on top even cloth bags full and hand them.no sense letting a good bug deterant go to waste.


 
Patent leather Beetles, Yes, have seen lots of those guys around. They seem to go deep into the ground when it gets cold. We found a lot of them when we dug the trenches for the cabin footing. Unfortunately we don't know the good bugs from the bad ones and hate to just random kill. The red sawdust sounds like a good idea.

You are right the redwood is usually fine. Being in the South like us you probably see those ERC skeletons with the roots chewed clean by termites and fungus and the rest by everything else.


----------



## phred45 (Jan 4, 2011)

mikeb1079 said:


> good tip stan. thanks!
> 
> hey phred, it looks like your oak may have dried out too fast. i've had trouble drying oak and have since read that it is a very slow drying wood. it's a must to keep it out of sunlight and let it dry slow.
> 
> ...



You are probably right as far as the cracking is concerned. The wood stacks are in the shade but the temperatures were still in the upper 90s and very dry when we had to cut that oak. We had hoped to use the slabs as beams in the cabin but all we are now getting is 2"x2" or 2"x3" and not very long.
The picture below is what's left of a 2"x14"x12' slab.


----------



## mtngun (Jan 4, 2011)

That's pretty sad.


----------



## phred45 (Jan 6, 2011)

Found some life culprits in my cedar wood.
Cedar Tree Borer Beetle (Semanotus ligneus ligneus)
I wonder if Bifen I/T would do the trick if I'd spay in on the boards. With the beetles and larva alife they will spread to the other wood. The redwood seems to be ok so the boards are not a total loss.


----------



## discounthunter (Jan 6, 2011)

i read either on here or another forum about using a sprayer filled with bleach water.person claimed to never have bug problems.


----------



## phred45 (Jan 9, 2011)

discounthunter said:


> i read either on here or another forum about using a sprayer filled with bleach water.person claimed to never have bug problems.


 
Thanks Discounthunter,
We sprayed all the infected boards down with bleach water yesterday. I hope the stripes will plane off later. Let's hope it works. Maybe the comming cold freeze will help some.


----------



## cgarman (Feb 24, 2011)

I've milled almost exclusively red oak, and experienced both of your issues.

First, I doubt that bugs will leave one slab and infest another. If they leave a slab, it's because it's getting too dry for them. A sister slab will be just as unattractive. I think it's more likely that the holes were full of sawdust during the milling, and now that they're drying, they're more noticeable.

If you're selling the wood, consider this a premium feature. Red oak can have a wild grain making it inappropriate for 'fine furniture.' Those same pieces can make a really unique slab table, which the right person would really value. Worm holes are just icing on top. Don't toss the wormy pieces - just find the right project to really highlight the imperfections.

As far as drying, it's a Goldilocks thing. Not too fast, not too slow.

Try stickering them outside in the shade with a tarp over the top for a few weeks. After that, you can move them inside. This two-stage process seems to work pretty well for me. I have a few slabs that are 8' by 36" and only 1" thick. They dried pretty flat, with no cracks. The next batch that I brought straight indoors didn't fare as well.

Also, don't forget that as you cut through a log, you end up with flat-sawn, rift-sawn, and quarter-sawn lumber. Any slabs that contain the heart will be beautiful quarter-sawn material, but will probably crack down the middle, especially in red oak. It's just something you have to accept with red oak. It might even be a good idea to go ahead and rip them in half ASAP with a circular saw to relieve the stress and keep cracking minimized.

Are you sealing the ends? Try some Arbor Seal. I have a 42" red oak that I logged into 6' and 8' sections 18 months ago. I coated the ends with Arbor Seal ASAP, and it looks like the day it was dropped. Compared to logs the I didn't seal, I see much less cracking.

Some people say you can use latex paint, but the nice thing about Arbor Seal is that it's paraffin wax based, so the offcuts of my finished lumber make great firestarters...


----------



## phred45 (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks cgarman,
The bug problem is horrific around here. They are swarming right now and the beatles are everywhere laying their eggs in the wood. Our ERC is also badly chewed. We cut some trees last Spring but didn't have time to debark them and the white wood is completly chewed up. Most of the red wood is still ok but they are slender trees that we needed for poles and taking all the white wood off would take forever. Also too costly with the log wizzard. 

I talked to the guys at the extention service to see if there is anything we can do to stop those bugs from getting worse. They don't think it's bugs and fungus that are killing the trees but just the drought we've been having the last few years. But then they also deny that we have mountain lions and wolves. Talked to one of my neighbors the other day and he lost a beautiful old Pine to the beetles. People here are frustrated because we are loosing the last great old trees we have.

For now I won't be cutting any more oak only ERC. What we have milled is all stickered stacked in shade outside with metal roofing over the top. I used latex paint (3 coats) on the ends. I'll leave it alone for now and see what happens. I'll check into the Arbor Seal.



cgarman said:


> I've milled almost exclusively red oak, and experienced both of your issues.
> 
> First, I doubt that bugs will leave one slab and infest another. If they leave a slab, it's because it's getting too dry for them. A sister slab will be just as unattractive. I think it's more likely that the holes were full of sawdust during the milling, and now that they're drying, they're more noticeable.
> 
> ...


----------



## peterrum (Mar 2, 2011)

phred45 said:


> Thanks Betterbuilt,
> Unfortunately the holes still have life larva in some of them and we need most of the boards for structural wood, building a barn and a cabin. Here in Arkansas you can hardly ever find dead trees that are still usable they are turned into sawdust by beetles, ants and termites in a few years sometimes months.



Sometimes I use diesel fuel to kill the bugs, but only in the wood that will be used for outdoor structures. I find the active hole that the bugs are in, put about 1/2 ounce of fuel in a thin tube, even a straw, put the tube/straw in the bug hole and let it diesel flow inside, kills them dead. It will stain the wood a little bit hence the reason why I just use it for outside projects. I've used this technique with success but that is when I have only a few bugs that are active in a beam or board, not in large numbers.


----------

