# Manswers proves Jomoco wrong



## treevet (Dec 22, 2009)

Yesterday I was reading somewhere that 33 people have died according to the AMA by woodchipper accidents since 1993. That is a little over 2 and a half (no joke intended) per year.

Was just watching Manswers and they said 500 people were killed LAST YEAR alone by elephants. Also said you don't want to get in the fetal position and play dead like the bear thing. Elephants get pessed off they stay pessed. Where do you go what do you do? They can run 35 mph and hiding behind most anything ain't gonna work.

Anyway since dangerous is a relative term, I don't think chippers are that dangerous. They are so scary that proper procedure is usually observed.
There was a expose following this on "how boobs can hypnotize men" but this wasn't relative so I didn't watch that part 

But Jomoco wants new regulation and I think the elephant situation is more pressing and we don't need any more regs. in the chipper issue.


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## Hddnis (Dec 22, 2009)

You should have payed attention to the boob thing. I'll bet they entangle far more men every year than elephants and chippers combined and doubled.


Mr. HE


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## treeseer (Dec 22, 2009)

treevet said:


> Yesterday I was reading somewhere that 33 people have died according to the AMA by woodchipper accidents since 1993. That is a little over 2 and a half (no joke intended) per year.


Either your source is not so good, or TCIA is making up a lot of those reports every month.

An expose' on...

I tend to respect both elephants and chippers--I've fed them both on the job and they both are dangerous. Re underregulated safety, check out Ringling Brothers! :jawdrop:


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## treevet (Dec 22, 2009)

Hddnis said:


> You should have payed attention to the boob thing. I'll bet they entangle far more men every year than elephants and chippers combined and doubled.
> 
> 
> Mr. HE



You may be right....I better go back and research a little further


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## treevet (Dec 23, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Either your source is not so good, or TCIA is making up a lot of those reports every month.
> 
> An expose' on...
> 
> I tend to respect both elephants and chippers--I've fed them both on the job and they both are dangerous. Re underregulated safety, check out Ringling Brothers! :jawdrop:



I found another source that said 13 deaths in the last 11 years. Droves of injuries tho. Also found this little gem....

http://www.pollystaffle.com/classics/woodchippermassacre.shtml


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## cowtipper (Dec 23, 2009)

Fatal Cases Involving Mobile Wood Chippers 

During 1992--2002, a total of 31 occupational injury deaths were attributable to mobile chippers. 

All decedents were male; mean age at death was 35 years (range: <20--60 years). Of these deaths, 12 (39%) occurred among persons aged 25--34 years. 

Seventeen (55%) occurred in the agriculture, forestry, and fishing industry, and seven (23%) occurred in the manufacturing industry. 

Twenty-one (68%) were the result of being caught or compressed by the chipper, and nine (29%) were the result of being struck by the machine or a machine part. 

Thirteen (42%) of the fatally injured workers were groundskeepers, and five (16%) were machine operators, assemblers, and inspectors. 

The remaining were classified as managers, forest conservation specialists, farm workers, carpenters, cutters/welders, miscellaneous machine operators, and construction and nonconstruction laborers. Approximately one third of the events occurred in July or August. 

Of 26 cases among persons for whom ethnicity was known, seven (27%) were among Hispanics. Societal costs of all chipper-related fatalities (primary source code 3231) for 1992--2001 are estimated at $28.5 million in 2003 dollars (CDC, unpublished data, 2004§). 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5348a2.htm


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## Rookie1 (Dec 23, 2009)

Hmm Ive heard sharp sticks can be dangerous too. Too bad common sense isnt so common anymore.


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## jgaliley (Dec 23, 2009)

Take a look at any of Dr. John Ball's articles on injuries in the arboriculture industry (several have been published in Arborist News and Tree Care Industry). His research shows that, on average, someone goes through a chipper up to once every two weeks in the U.S.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 23, 2009)

I suppose we have to put our scissors in a sheath before we turn to walk away too? Running has been out for a long time now.

I could not find the OSHA logger, soooo....


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## treevet (Dec 23, 2009)

Very technologically sound "emissions" control system


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## jomoco (Dec 23, 2009)

Ah yes, my fellow arborists illustrating the true depths of their concern for their groundies safety?

Joking about the gruesome demise of our fellow treeworkers to the point of actually trying to trivialize this growing problem in our industry?

jomoco


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## treesquirrel (Dec 23, 2009)

Back in the late 80's I worked for Georgia Pacific at a plant here in Georgia. 

We had a big chipper for all the log refuse which could chip up too a 40 inch log. It had a 96 inch disc. It was driven by a 1000 horsepower electric motor and the cutter disc was so heavy it had to be started by two hydraulic motors until at 100 RPM's then the electric kicked in.

Anyway, when I first went to work there I noticed this old guy who had a job driving a specially engineered sweeping machine which he could drive with no legs. I assumed he was a vet that had his legs blown off in veitnam or something. WRONG!

He was working in the infeed area clearing debris from in the way of the chipper and signaled the operator to bump the flywheel to see if it was free. He fell onto the feed rollers and got fed into the chipper. The operator shut it down as the guy hung onto some hand rails for dear life. How the guy managed to survive is beyond me but there he was, no legs, driving the floor sweeper.


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## treesquirrel (Dec 23, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Ah yes, my fellow arborists illustrating the true depths of their concern for their groundies safety?
> 
> Joking about the gruesome demise of our fellow treeworkers to the point of actually trying to trivialize this growing problem in our industry?
> 
> jomoco



Agreed. This is a sickening subject. I think the answer is in proper operator training. You cannot build a wood chipper that does not have the risk of injury or death.


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## outofmytree (Dec 23, 2009)

This subject is a pet peeve of mine. IMO no amount of "safety" devices will ever substitute for good training, good site control and common sense. Two operators to chipper at all times will reduce accidents. This rationale has been proven over and over again in many hazardous occupations.


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## treeslayer (Dec 23, 2009)

I want an elephant pulling my chipper from now on.

Treeslayer aint scared of neither.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 23, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> This subject is a pet peeve of mine. IMO no amount of "safety" devices will ever substitute for good training, good site control and common sense. Two operators to chipper at all times will reduce accidents. This rationale has been proven over and over again in many hazardous occupations.



I get it now-OOMT! Is that why they made "car-pool lanes", I wonder if I should ever drive in traffic alone again? Can traffic accidents be less if we have more than one operator in the scene?
Jeff:monkey:


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## treemandan (Dec 23, 2009)

First of all that pic of the cowboy is so true and second: Its a sad day indeed when someone feels that have to prove Jomoco wrong.


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## outofmytree (Dec 23, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> I get it now-OOMT! Is that why they made "car-pool lanes", I wonder if I should ever drive in traffic alone again? Can traffic accidents be less if we have more than one operator in the scene?
> Jeff:monkey:





> Maybe you just like to argue,
> Jeff Lovstrom





> Ah yes, my fellow arborists illustrating the true depths of their concern for their groundies safety?
> 
> Joking about the gruesome demise of our fellow treeworkers to the point of actually trying to trivialize this growing problem in our industry?
> 
> jomoco





> I always took you to be petulant, rather than obtuse. It is up to you to prove which it is. Outofmytree.



You reveal yourself as obtuse lovstrom. Better let your mate jomoco know just how important safety around chippers is to you.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 23, 2009)

Really OOMT, Merry Christmas and lets let arguments be that, but as people being people, thats all good to. We will probably always argue (or not) but we can still be cool. Right?
Jeff


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 23, 2009)

A big animal has choice, and may or may not attack. Chippers don't attack.

But seems to add to the chippers unpredicabilty are the limbs and whether or not they twist, or whether they will snag somebody.

I would never buy a chuck n duck chipper, but sort of miss the entertainment of those when we used them at country clubs years ago.

For safety, I'm sort of leaning toward what outofmytree posted earlier.

Good equipment, good manual, good training, good habits


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 24, 2009)

cowtipper said:


> Fatal Cases Involving Mobile Wood Chippers
> 
> Approximately one third of the events occurred in July or August.



Gee.. maybe if they legislate no use of chippers in July or August they could cut down this by 1/3 easily!! Duh..


Of course nobody ever thought of reading the manual, a bit of safety or common sense.. enough legislation!

Had enough, I am running out to get some last minute pre-Christmas stuff done.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 24, 2009)

Training and enforced SOP are what has to be done. The majority of the incidents I have read involve some sort of stupidity. 

Shall not stand in infeed
Shall not reach into infeed
Shall have supervised operation by low skilled personnel

Every once and a while you read of the worker with several years under his belt being found splattered around inside the chip box.

I do not think is is a non issue, I fall on the side of "you can't regulate stupidity" worker or management.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

I suppose you guys think mandating inertia chain brakes on chainsaws was a mistake?

How many lives/injuries have inertia chain brakes saved?

The principle is the same, and you boys need to accept that everyone makes mistakes at some point in their careers, even climbers. Steel cored lanyards were developed for mistake prone climbers.

The next time you make a mistake will it cost you your life?

jomoco


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## treeseer (Dec 24, 2009)

when my chain brakes break i don't replace em.

never had a wirecored lanyard.

not sure we need safer chippers, just better operation.

this rant is old. :monkey:


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

treeseer said:


> when my chain brakes break i don't replace em.
> 
> never had a wirecored lanyard.
> 
> ...



The point I'm making is that the TCIA/ISA never actively sought to prevent the mandating of inertia chainbrakes on chainsaws the way they have with two man minimums/inchute pull cords on WTC's.

Whose safety does TCIA lobby for? Treeworkers or WTC MFR's wallets?

This is no trivial issue, it's a life and death issue for treeworkers being betrayed by their own industry associations.

jomoco


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## outofmytree (Dec 24, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Training and enforced SOP are what has to be done. The majority of the incidents I have read involve some sort of stupidity.
> 
> Shall not stand in infeed
> Shall not reach into infeed
> ...



This has also been my experience. 

Making a machine safe does not make an operator safe. Working as a team at least allows your "buddy" to see what you miss. Look at other hazardous industries and see how many you can think of that use cross checking to avoid user error. Two men on a chipper DOES reduce accidents. Adding another "safety" device that will be disabled by the operator in the first week DOES NOT.


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## outofmytree (Dec 24, 2009)

jomoco said:


> two man minimums/inchute pull cords on WTC's.



You must use different chippers in Socal.

Every Bandit, Morbark, Vermeer and Woodsman chipper sold in Australia has "last chance cords" inside the chute and the manual recommends 2 man operations as does the DVD which comes with each machine. Every member of my team has read the manual, watched the dvd and laughed at each others efforts to grab those "waste of time cords" when we run simulated chipper accidents.







It is operators who control site safety not machines. No faceless government agency will make my boys safer than they make themselves.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

Logic might dictate that no-one dying using a last chance inchute pull cord equipped WTC indicates they may be safer than WTC's without them, in which over 35 fatalities have occurred?

The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death is a sure indication that a mandated two man minimum on WTC's will indeed save treeworker lives.

That TCIA actively lobbies to prevent mandating even a simple two man minimum rule on large chippers is going to change, it's just a matter of how much longer it takes them to take action before state and federal officials do their jobs for them.

jomoco

At the risk of repeating myself, I direct this post to your attention, again.

Rebutt it logically if you can?

TV, Treeco, anybody?

jomoco


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

Could you define WTC for me please?? exactly how big does a chipper have to be to be considered a whole tree chipper?

If I missed where that was discussed, I apologize.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> Could you define WTC for me please?? exactly how big does a chipper have to be to be considered a whole tree chipper?
> 
> If I missed where that was discussed, I apologize.



I would consider any hydraulicly fed chipper over a 12 inch capacity a WTC, BC 1400's and up.

I know of no fatalities involving BC 1000's.

jomoco


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I would consider any hydraulicly fed chipper over a 12 inch capacity a WTC, BC 1400's and up.
> 
> I know of no fatalities involving BC 1000's.
> 
> jomoco



See thats where it gets a little foggy... my 250 with the supersized infeed is still considered a 12" chipper, I think its 12"x24". I would fit in there quite nicely. Also the feed rate is another thing to consider, mine feeds at 120 fpm, where the 15" chippers are mostly 100 fpm (dont quote me on that, its been a while sinse I've researched chippers). So by your theory I suppose mine could be considered a non WTC, when in reality its probably more, or just as dangerous. Just some thoughts.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

The smart and prudent owner of a WTC will establish his own company two man minimum to operate that machine, out of simple common sense and his own self interest, and peace of mind in my opinion.

It's certainly worked well for me to date, knocking on wood the way I do.

jomoco


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## treevet (Dec 24, 2009)

I agree, you are not likely going to legislate away the ubiquitous 2 man crew. You may legislate on it but imo it will not go away. Not enough $ in this biz.

One guy upstairs and one guy downstairs (on the chipper).


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> I agree, you are not likely going to legislate away the ubiquitous 2 man crew. You may legislate on it but imo it will not go away. Not enough $ in this biz.
> 
> One guy upstairs and one guy downstairs (on the chipper).



Sure, manning a 12 inch chipper, not a BC 1800.

jomoco


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## treevet (Dec 24, 2009)

What's the dif? Either machine you can pretty much put in what you want to but with the big one (I have bc2000) you HAVE to have an assistant (to feed more than 1 man can handle) that may even make it more dangerous. My bc 1250A will swallow anything a grown man can wrestle into it.

Beyond that on the big one we feed with the dingo or the crane. Very little danger there unless you are :monkey: and get involved with the branching when it is not necessary.

What is your opinion on AMA documenting only 13 deaths in 16 years and another source (posted in this thread) listing only 13 deaths in 11 years. Sounds like you (alone) are blustering as a tempest in a teapot.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Logic might dictate that no-one dying using a last chance inchute pull cord equipped WTC indicates they may be safer than WTC's without them, in which over 35 fatalities have occurred?
> 
> The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death is a sure indication that a mandated two man minimum on WTC's will indeed save treeworker lives.
> 
> ...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Dec 24, 2009)

jgaliley said:


> Take a look at any of Dr. John Ball's articles on injuries in the arboriculture industry (several have been published in Arborist News and Tree Care Industry). His research shows that, on average, someone goes through a chipper up to once every two weeks in the U.S.





That's hard to believe. Do the math. 26 per year? That's 260 in the same time period that the CDC reports 31. That's too big a discrepancy. Somebody is WAY wrong.

Not that I have much confidence in the CDC, but I think 26 per year would make some news.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> That's hard to believe. Do the math. 26 per year? That's 260 in the same time period that the CDC reports 31. That's too big a discrepancy. Somebody is WAY wrong.
> 
> Not that I have much confidence in the CDC, but I think 26 per year would make some news.



That you or TCIA are trying to gloss over an embarrassing truth is all too obvious BRM.


jomoco


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## treevet (Dec 24, 2009)

This is likely the source of some of the John Ball input.....

http://www.treecareindustry.org/articles/magazine/TCI0309_p8.htm


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## BlueRidgeMark (Dec 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> This is likely the source of some of the John Ball input.....
> 
> http://www.treecareindustry.org/articles/magazine/TCI0309_p8.htm





Oh, no. don't cite that source! I mean, what would Jomoco say about a line like this:



> we are deceiving ourselves if we blame the tool for the tragic results of our own behavior.




Okay, on a serious note, I see he references "An ongoing research project on tree worker safety being conducted by South Dakota State University (SDSU)". Based on that, he makes some rather vague claims about numbers of fatalities (no totals per year, no totals period!). But he never says one word about the source of their information, nor does he link to a source of the study where more specifics could be found. He doesn't even cite it properly. He doesn't give a formal name for the study, nor does he mention an author's name.

Lacking more specific information about the source of the data, it's hard to put much credence in this monograph.

Unless, of course, it fits someone's agenda.


I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I know how research information should be presented. If there's solid evidence behind Ball's numbers, he's done a good job of camouflaging it. Maybe he's just not a good communicator, or maybe he's fudging something. 

I don't know which.


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## treevet (Dec 24, 2009)

1 non arb. and 1 used to be arb.

Some of the proponents of legislation want 2 men on all WTC's......In order for that to be a viable safety component the second person would have to be a passive observer. If he is an active feeder, I know from my own experience that with 2 feeders it is always a surprise to the number 1 guy when the number 2 (not from Austin Powers) guy actually engages the piece into the rollers. This way shortens reaction and escape time. 

Also the second feeder can get in the way of escape of the other man. And again, with 2 feeders they are always gonna try to feed more than they safely should (without trimming) with a heavier more spread branch capable of entrapping either man.

Who can afford a passive observer on a job except gummit workers?


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> 1 non arb. and 1 used to be arb.
> 
> Some of the proponents of legislation want 2 men on all WTC's......In order for that to be a viable safety component the second person would have to be a passive observer. If he is an active feeder, I know from my own experience that with 2 feeders it is always a surprise to the number 1 guy when the number 2 (not from Austin Powers) guy actually engages the piece into the rollers. This way shortens reaction and escape time.
> 
> ...



You're so full of it TV, or should I call you professor Ball?

Your pathetic post is right in line with professor Ball's blatant BS.

TCIA should pay you a salary from their proceeds fron morbark and vermeer!

The only party getting screwed are low paid groundies here.

jomoco


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 24, 2009)

I've worked on crews with more then one guy working on the chipper. One way I work around the traffic issue is I will usually appoint myself as dragger, or wait for the forst guy to get out of the way. Teams usually tend to work these things out so they do not step on each others feet too much.

As for the pull cords, it was my understanding that the "inventing" OEM wanted a hefty license fee from all the other MFR's that adapted them. The industry orgs were siding with the idea that the industry should not have to pay-up so much for a mandated add-on.

As for chipper size, I've had more problems with the smaller chippers then the huge ones. You are allways trying to force a limb in with the smaller infeed openings and light roller springs.


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## treevet (Dec 24, 2009)

jomoco said:


> You're so full of it TV, or should I call you professor Ball?
> 
> Your pathetic post is right in line with professor Ball's blatant BS.
> 
> ...



You know i was paging through a thread on another forum yesterday when I came across one you started insulting a poster's technique that drew the wrath of a multitude of posters and all the posters and in short order had you demeaning yourself and telling the truth (for once) that you are nobody special and you made a big mistake and kissing ass of the OP and everyone and anyone.

Now that was pathetic. I was deeply embarrassed for you.

Since when is your cause low paid groundies? And maybe these were, for the most part, very highly paid groundies but terminally dumb groundies.

My inclusion of the 500 deaths per year by elephant squishing was also to illustrate that one should not go wandering around where there are angry elephants running loose, or nursing mother grizzlies, or sneaky mountain lions, or swimming in white shark infested waters.

Neither should a very dumb dope that's gonna push limbs in the chute with their boots ....fill out an application where he will be operating a 250 horsepower, 20 inch auto feed roller fed pulverizer.


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2009)

treevet said:


> You know i was paging through a thread on another forum yesterday when I came across one you started insulting a poster's technique that drew the wrath of a multitude of posters and all the posters and in short order had you demeaning yourself and telling the truth (for once) that you are nobody special and you made a big mistake and kissing ass of the OP and everyone and anyone.
> 
> Now that was pathetic. I was deeply embarrassed for you.
> 
> ...



What are chainsaw safety chaps for einstein?

Chainsaw operators who make mistakes?

Where does your prejudice against a chipper operator who makes mistakes come from TV?

jomoco


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## treevet (Dec 24, 2009)

Being a treeman most of your life you must know that there are some mistakes you just cannot make. Being a human being for that matter.

I do not see the (innovations?) you propose as being that significant. Training and implementation and management of that training from standards (ANSI) are the key IMO.

You got anybody holding your hand when you are up there stumbling around in the trees you work on?


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> Being a treeman most of your life you must know that there are some mistakes you just cannot make. Being a human being for that matter.
> 
> I do not see the (innovations?) you propose as being that significant. Training and implementation and management of that training from standards (ANSI) are the key IMO.
> 
> You got anybody holding your hand when you are up there stumbling around in the trees you work on?



Yeah well the status quo that you and TCIA are proponents of aint workin out too well to date now is it TV?

Is 500 dead the trigger for your conscience to finally kick into gear?

jomoco


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## treevet (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Yeah well the status quo that you and TCIA are proponents of aint workin out too well to date now is it TV?
> 
> Is 500 dead the trigger for your conscience to finally kick into gear?
> 
> jomoco



I like status quo in this case embellished by ANSI.

I just don't see the 2 man thing working here or the panic cord. I do on the other hand see the 2 man thing work on the giant pachyderms.....

2 men stand back to back and if one comes your way the two of you got it covered since nobody's got eyes in the back of their heads. Presto 500 lives saved. 

Kinda like the old train thing. How does the dumb ass get hit by the train when all he has to do is take a couple of steps .....off the tracks.


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

treevet;1912902
You got anybody holding your hand when you are up there stumbling around in the trees you work on?[/QUOTE said:


> As a matter of fact I do, his name is Samson, and he's a true blue friend of mine, even saved me from my mistakes a few times.
> 
> jomoco


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## treevet (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> As a matter of fact I do, his name is Samson, and he's a true blue friend of mine, even saved me from my mistakes a few times.
> 
> jomoco



see ya tomorrow my friend, I am cashing it in.


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> see ya tomorrow my friend, I am cashing it in.



Merry Christmas TV.

jomoco


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## outofmytree (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Logic might dictate that no-one dying using a last chance inchute pull cord equipped WTC indicates they may be safer than WTC's without them, in which over 35 fatalities have occurred?
> 
> The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death is a sure indication that a mandated two man minimum on WTC's will indeed save treeworker lives.
> 
> ...



Ok. I see you have difficulty in reading so I will make it as simple as possible for you. As there is much dispute over the accuracy of fatal accident statistics we cannot say whether pullcords are effective or not. If your base data is worthless any premise drawn from that data is worthless.

What does draw my eye is this statement.


> The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death


If I had 1 near fatal accident on my site I would have called off the job. Shut down the gear. Gone home and worked out a better way and then retrained my guys. You claim to have had 3. This indicates a distinct lack of training and an embarrasing lack of care on the part of the business owner.

Exactly how are you training your guys that allows you to have 3 near fatal accidents?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Dec 25, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> As there is much dispute over the accuracy of fatal accident statistics we cannot say whether pullcords are effective or not. If your base data is worthless any premise drawn from that data is worthless.





Bingo. Until the data questions are resolved, nobody even knows how big the problem is. "I have personally seen..." doesn't cut it.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I believe proper training is key Vs. safety gizmo's.



Yep. That and common sense.

If no common sense present, all the training in the world will not help much.

I can not see the 2 man thing working much better than training as you stated, and common sense and pratical use. The other thing, don't rush.. (which I guess is common sense).

Most people can not afford to have somebody standing at machine all day to ensure somebody does not get in trouble. But they can afford to have people slow down a bit, use common sense and apply their training.

I have at times stood by chipper (and grinder for that matter), but was more observing the guys and ensuring they did it all as they were trained. If I had to pay somebody to sit on each machine to babysit it, think I would find another business.


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## demographic (Dec 25, 2009)

Just get the elephants to load the chippers, problem sorted.


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

You guys can't seem to think on a broader plane beyond your own operations.

Refusing too see that this problem will only get worse if nothing is done seems to be obvious to everyone except you.

Just last month this tragedy occuured.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/n.../teen_killed_in_wood_chipper_accident/307449/

Now you go ask the owner of that WTC whether he thinks a two man rule isn't a damn good idea?

Just because you have trained pros on your crews capable of safely operating a WTC, doesn't make these growing number of gruesome deaths any less real, and they certainly don't burnish our public image at all.

The owner of that WTC will be scarred for life from this very real tragedy.

jomoco


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## rbtree (Dec 25, 2009)

In real practice, I can only see a two man rule being somewhat helpful. Typically, one person would often be as far away as the tree, picking up the next load to drag to the chipper, or would be walking away from the chipper, if he just dropped the load for the person chipping to feed.

Staging a lot of piles so two can work together feeding would be safer, but is only occasionally workable.

For a two man rule to be effective, at least a four man crew would be required in most cases.

ain't gonna fly!


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> So Jomoco.....do you purpose a second 14 year old as the other man?
> 
> This accident reeks of a lack of training. Do you think you or I would be drug into a chipper by a shovel?



I started climbing trees commercially at 14 years old Treeco.

And like OSHA and FACE officials very familiar with these accidents, I also recommend a two man minimum rule to reduce them.

The pertinent question is why TCIA lobbies against them?

jomoco


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## rbtree (Dec 25, 2009)

Can't remember where I saw it, but some chipper mfr. has come up with a ridiculous safety system. It involves some bars that extend out and down to near ground level, which must be stood on to allow the feed rollers to be engaged in the feed direction? 

I dunno if the operator has to stay rooted to his stance till the branch has fed all the way through, but if so, how's that for a productivity killer?

Guffaw


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

rbtree said:


> Can't remember where I saw it, but some chipper mfr. has come up with a ridiculous safety system. It involves some bars that extend out and down to near ground level, which must be stood on to allow the feed rollers to be engaged in the feed direction?
> 
> I dunno if the operator has to stay rooted to his stance till the branch has fed all the way through, but if so, how's that for a productivity killer?
> 
> Guffaw



Actually RB, vermeer's new feedtable bump bar system pretty much guarantees two man operation, because it takes one man leaning on the over-ride button to get any real production out of the unit!

jomoco


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## ckliff (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> The owner of that WTC will be scarred for life from this very real tragedy.
> jomoco



It ruined the kid's whole day too.

This whole discussion seems to boil down to this:

Will we take responsibility for our own actions, or do we need a nursemaid?


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 25, 2009)

Too Much safety equipment breeds complacency, and some safety features beg to be disabled when they hamper production.

Honestly they should be scary, very scary in fact. because no safety equipment or procedure will be followed when it is thought to be ridiculous, or if Danger isn't Obvious. 
Like Spike says maybe if your this stupid you deserve to die.
http://www.veoh.com/collection/1000-Ways-to-Die/watch/v18457504wa8Xyj8S


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

ckliff said:


> It ruined the kid's whole day too.
> 
> This whole discussion seems to boil down to this:
> 
> Will we take responsibility for our own actions, or do we need a nursemaid?



Morbark, vermeer and bandit are going to answer that question sooner or later.

You'd think they have more incentive to reduce these fatalities involving their equipment than anyone else?

If you can make a safer chipper that reduces operator fatalities/injuries, why not do it?

These MFR's and TCIA should be leading the charge to establish WTC two man minimum mandates to limit their own liabilities so they have a leg to stand on in court.

jomoco


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> If you can make a safer chipper that reduces operator fatalities/injuries, why not do it?
> 
> 
> jomoco


see my last post, Why is it the manufacture of tools continues to be made liable for the idiots that use it.


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## jomoco (Dec 25, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> see my last post, Why is it the manufacture of tools continues to be made liable for the idiots that use it.



The same reason automobile MFR's now put seatbelts, airbags and crumple zones in their cars.

They save lives!

jomoco


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## clearance (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> The same reason automobile MFR's now put seatbelts, airbags and crumple zones in their cars.
> 
> They save lives!
> 
> jomoco



These are all passive safety devices. Apples and oranges.
I like you and support the majority of what you say about treework Jo, but not on this chipper deal. 
I have chipped more loads than I remember, no problem, except for once getting whacked in the head from a branch I fed into an old Whisper. And I was walking away at the time. You just can't fix stupid, the people that get chipped, if properly trained, only have themselves to blame. Maybe harsh, but true. I have been cut with chainsaws, once really bad, all my fault. 

Anyways, Merry Christmas


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Morbark, vermeer and bandit are going to answer that question sooner or later.
> 
> You'd think they have more incentive to reduce these fatalities involving their equipment than anyone else?
> 
> ...



I think mandates are on the way from what I hear in some cities north of me.
Jeff


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 25, 2009)

jomoco said:


> The same reason automobile MFR's now put seatbelts, airbags and crumple zones in their cars.
> 
> They save lives!
> 
> jomoco


 Those don't impede efficiant operation, and they are effective, just how effective can safety be on a chipper without impeding function.

of course every device should have basic emergency shut downs, but the primary safety factor is diligent obidence of procedure, and respect for what can happen.

Perhaps the most effective would be to slow down the feed rate and all of us becoming a bit more patient.


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## outofmytree (Dec 26, 2009)

jomoco said:


> http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/n.../teen_killed_in_wood_chipper_accident/307449/
> 
> *Now you go ask the owner of that WTC whether he thinks a two man rule isn't a damn good idea?*
> 
> jomoco





> Poquoson Police Chief Cliff Bowen says the 14-year-old was part of a *three-person crew *working Sunday to remove tree limbs and debris from a home.



Now I have answered *YOUR* question, have you got the guts to answer mine?



> What does draw my eye is this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ckliff (Dec 26, 2009)

Hey Jomoco - you are* RIGHT!*

Two men is best if they are doing it correctly. Only, should it be a rule/law? Do we need the BO, TCIA, OSHA, ANSI, etc... 

Oh, BTW - just for laughs - what safety features would you mandate for firetrucks to prevent this type of accident...


........





..........





.........












Sweet 1969 Pontiac Firebird versus 48,000-pound Water Tender


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## jomoco (Dec 26, 2009)

ckliff said:


> Hey Jomoco - you are* RIGHT!*



Duh!

jomoco


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## Garden Of Eden (Dec 26, 2009)

Here's my only complaint. In Michigan they just passed a no smoking law. While I don't smoke, and am totally against smoking in certain areas, I must say I was a little disappointed. I figure if you're at a diner, and someone is smoking, and you don't like it, leave. I understand hospitals, gov't buildings, and public places like that, but not food establishments and bars. Let the social problems work themselves out on their own. If they say problems, the the masses must not be working hard enough.

As far as chippers, it's been my experience that training can't fix stupid. And according to the Good Book, it rains on the just as well as the unjust. I don't think we will ever solve all accidents in such a dangerous industry. However, think of the hundreds of thousands of hours chippers are being run world wide over the course of a year. Honestly, 20-30, or even 200-300, isn't doing too bad. You have to account for the people who are in a rush, and hot, and fatigued, and everything else. Numbers to me don't seem all that bad.

Just my two cents.

God Bless
Jeff


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## treevet (Dec 26, 2009)

Hey, if you gonna get hit by a lateral limb that projects behind your body when the butt engages in the feed rollers....cut the damn thang off! There are no surprises here....the piece isn't gonna flip completely over and do a 360 and grab you. Clean the stem of the piece far enough from the butt to allow a safe escape.

If the piece is crooked....plan on getting outta the way in a hurry if the crook is behind you.

If the piece is not engaging get behind it and lift and push it rather than headlocking it or use a forked pusher stick.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Here's my only complaint. In Michigan they just passed a no smoking law. While I don't smoke, and am totally against smoking in certain areas, I must say I was a little disappointed. I figure if you're at a diner, and someone is smoking, and you don't like it, leave. I understand hospitals, gov't buildings, and public places like that, but not food establishments and bars. Let the social problems work themselves out on their own. If they say problems, the the masses must not be working hard enough.
> 
> As far as chippers, it's been my experience that training can't fix stupid. And according to the Good Book, it rains on the just as well as the unjust. I don't think we will ever solve all accidents in such a dangerous industry. However, think of the hundreds of thousands of hours chippers are being run world wide over the course of a year. Honestly, 20-30, or even 200-300, isn't doing too bad. You have to account for the people who are in a rush, and hot, and fatigued, and everything else. Numbers to me don't seem all that bad.
> 
> ...


My name is Jeff and I smoke.
Jeff


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## treevet (Dec 26, 2009)

Sounds like something you have to say when you stand up at a smoke a holic's meeting


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## Garden Of Eden (Dec 26, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> My name is Jeff and I smoke.
> Jeff



I got no problem with smoking or smokers. The smoke-aholic thing was funny. 

I have a problem with the gov't assuming we're all too stupid to figure out this kinda stuff.

I'm with TV, little common sense saves your life, and limb, cut the laterals off/down before. I love when someone gets a hat or something "sucked" in the chipper by the brush. I'm always amazed at how they can be amazed. 

God Bless


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I got no problem with smoking or smokers. The smoke-aholic thing was funny.
> 
> I have a problem with the gov't assuming we're all too stupid to figure out this kinda stuff.
> 
> ...



You sound amazed!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Sorry! I am listening to Iron Maiden and feeling good!
Jeff


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## Garden Of Eden (Dec 26, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> You sound amazed!
> Jeff



BTW, I love your sig line Jeff, at the end, right before the hand retracts, you can see the little bits of blue squish between the fingers...Love it.


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## tree MDS (Dec 26, 2009)

This whole thread has been just about as thrilling as cutting brush with a dull saw.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> BTW, I love your sig line Jeff, at the end, right before the hand retracts, you can see the little bits of blue squish between the fingers...Love it.



Thats because I went from Iron Maiden to Rush---"Call me the working man!!"
Jeff


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## jomoco (Dec 26, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> This whole thread has been just about as thrilling as cutting brush with a dull saw.



I'm sure it feels much like a civil war amputation with a dull saw MDS.

That you guys feel some treeworkers are deserving of it stiil bothers me.

jomoco


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Garden of whatever---
Jeff:censored:


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Oh No!=== It is Black Sabbath!!! Am I in trouble?
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Dec 26, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I'm sure it feels much like a civil war amputation with a dull saw MDS.
> 
> That you guys feel some treeworkers are deserving of it stiil bothers me.
> 
> jomoco



I think some people just arent made to be treeworkers... that is to say If you ground guy drools alot, maybe he better think about a different proffession -and I for one wouldnt be putting him with a WTC! Like someone said earlier "you cant fix stupid". It is sort of sad that whenever I run an ad for help that this is pretty much what I get. So I see your point and i think it is a good and noble thing that your concerned for these people, I just dont see it as being realistic this two guys chipping thing. Its hard enough for us smaller guys to make it out there lately.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a buddy of mine that works for one of the big line clearance companies. We got talking about this no one handing a saw deal, he said "I think theyre trying to make that a rule". I said "I think it already is, but I'm not sure". He replied "well if it is they had better not enforce it - unless they want to see production slow to a crawl". 

Of course I'm just a regular small time treeguy, but thats my opinion FWIW.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

I think some people are to be Idiot's, they just don't know it!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> BTW, I love your sig line Jeff, at the end, right before the hand retracts, you can see the little bits of blue squish between the fingers...Love it.



My hand is retracked to get rid of your Booger!!!
Jeff


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I got no problem with smoking or smokers.



Smokers? I have one of them.. makes great fish!!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Sorry! I am listening to Iron Maiden and feeling good!



Hey it is Christmas!! Everybody should be taking it easy and feeling good.
Enjoy the day!! opcorn:


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

D


tree MDS said:


> I think some people just arent made to be treeworkers... that is to say If you ground guy drools alot, maybe he better think about a different proffession -and I for one wouldnt be putting him with a WTC! Like someone said earlier "you cant fix stupid". It is sort of sad that whenever I run an ad for help that this is pretty much what I get. So I see your point and i think it is a good and noble thing that your concerned for these people, I just dont see it as being realistic this two guys chipping thing. Its hard enough for us smaller guys to make it out there lately.
> 
> This reminds me of a conversation I had with a buddy of mine that works for one of the big line clearance companies. We got talking about this no one handing a saw deal, he said "I think theyre trying to make that a rule". I said "I think it already is, but I'm not sure". He replied "well if it is they had better not enforce it - unless they want to see production slow to a crawl".
> 
> Of course I'm just a regular small time treeguy, but thats my opinion FWIW.





Derail!
Jeff


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I think some people just arent made to be treeworkers... that is to say If you ground guy drools alot, maybe he better think about a different proffession -and I for one wouldnt be putting him with a WTC! Like someone said earlier "you cant fix stupid". It is sort of sad that whenever I run an ad for help that this is pretty much what I get.



Unfortunately true. There are some good guys out there, but seem to be hard to find.



tree MDS said:


> So I see your point and i think it is a good and noble thing that your concerned for these people, I just dont see it as being realistic this two guys chipping thing. Its hard enough for us smaller guys to make it out there lately.



Agreed.. and if they ever tried to enforce it you would see a lot of smaller guys hang up their hat.




tree MDS said:


> This reminds me of a conversation I had with a buddy of mine that works for one of the big line clearance companies. We got talking about this no one handing a saw deal, he said "I think theyre trying to make that a rule". I said "I think it already is, but I'm not sure". He replied "well if it is they had better not enforce it - unless they want to see production slow to a crawl".



I don't recall anything about that being law anywhere around here. They do teach it in all the courses as unsafe, but even the training courses do not mention as being illegal in any way. 

Now there have been a lot of injuries from this.. and if you are not using a top-handled saw then you best have horseshoes in your back pocket. Is it safe.. likely not. But I dare say that 97% of all users on here have done it at least once 

Part of safety or at least remaining alive and uninjured is recognizing the risk, being afraid of the danger.. and using common sense.


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## tree MDS (Dec 26, 2009)

Regarding the one handing thing. It may or may not be an ansi thing, I should know as there have been about a million threads on here pertaining to it...I just skimmed through those because they were kinda boring and nobody cares, theyre gonna do what they do anyway, myself included. 

But I didnt mean to derail the thread with that, was just using it as an example.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> theyre gonna do what they do anyway, myself included.



Exactly true.. which is why legislation does not usually work well.

In fact safety equipment does not always work well either.. it may save an idiot a few times.. but eventually it will catch up with them.

I still say some basic safety training.. and common sense.


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## jomoco (Dec 26, 2009)

Who speaks on behalf of the under paid, unrecognised hardworking groundies and drivers that run these WTC's?

They're in the back of the chiptruck.

TCIA, ANSI, ISA and others have all supported extra safety measures for climbers, like a preset rescue line installed in the tree, and a qualified climber on hand to perform the rescue. This is how big commercial companies get their accreditations and fancy stickers by documenting their close adherence to ANSI standards.

Why can't the groundie risking his life feeding a WTC get an additional man just like the friggin climber does? He's just as important to the crew's core function and safety as the climber is, maybe more so.

Buncha primadonnas shortchanging your groundmen is what I'm hearing here.

jomoco


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Buncha primadonnas shortchanging your groundmen is what I'm hearing here.



Nope. Often time I am working along side the ground man.. and letting younger guys do climbing. I would not ask anybody to do anything that I would not do myself.. anywhere - anytime..


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## treevet (Dec 26, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Who speaks on behalf of the under paid,
> 
> Buncha primadonnas shortchanging your groundmen is what I'm hearing here.
> 
> jomoco



Selective indignation. 

Maybe you feel this cause is destined to bring you notoriety? I wouldn't count on it were I you. It may just go the way of the leather cambium saver or the cable bolt aligning device.

You have no idea how we treat our ground personnel and you may be wise to contemplate your treatment of them if you have had 2 near fatalities like you describe.


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## outofmytree (Dec 27, 2009)

treevet said:


> Selective indignation.
> 
> Maybe you feel this cause is destined to bring you notoriety? I wouldn't count on it were I you. It may just go the way of the leather cambium saver or the cable bolt aligning device.
> 
> You have no idea how we treat our ground personnel and you may be wise to contemplate your treatment of them if you have had 2 near fatalities like you describe.



'Scuse me Dave but it was 



> The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death



Jomoco still has not answered my question as to what training he is providing that allows this massive failure on his part. 

If Jomoco gains any notoriety from this thread it will be as a hypocrite of the first water with an appalling safety record and a general lack of care for his crew.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 27, 2009)

Jon is a sub-contract climber thats works with alot of different crews, he is not the owner or trainer.
Jeff


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## outofmytree (Dec 27, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jon is a sub-contract climber thats works with alot of different crews, he is not the owner or trainer.
> Jeff



Go split hairs on some other forum Lovstrom. Your bf called out the entire industry with his holier-than-thou line of BS and then shot his foot clean off. The possesive "my" indicates that "his" crew were under "his" control and not once, not twice but three times someone went into the chipper. That is wrong anyway you look at it. Someone with that appalling record has no place correcting others whose approach has kept their crews perfectly safe.


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## pdqdl (Dec 28, 2009)

treesquirrel said:


> Back in the late 80's I worked for Georgia Pacific at a plant here in Georgia.
> 
> We had a big chipper for all the log refuse which could chip up too a 40 inch log. It had a 96 inch disc. It was driven by a 1000 horsepower electric motor and the cutter disc was so heavy it had to be started by two hydraulic motors until at 100 RPM's then the electric kicked in.
> 
> ...



I remember reading about that event many years ago. As I recall, he got lighter when his legs got whacked, and then he could pull himself off the conveyor.


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