# Humboldt Face Cut ?



## farmboimike (Feb 12, 2010)

Why is it west coast loggers use Humboldt face cuts ? I also noticed that they dont hardly even cut a thirty degree angle ? In Indiana we generally use a conventional face cut so the stump can be pretty much cut off at the ground and a steeper angle so the tree doesnt split , splinter , barberchair , or pull strands out of the hart wood .. But this is more oak, walnut, maple tree or I should say Hardwood area ? Not questioning the ways of anyone , Just a green horn that wants the info ! Thanks to all that reply !


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## bitzer (Feb 12, 2010)

Humboldt puts the butt on the ground first and the crown last. In steep terrain it will prevent breakage of the stem. I also find it easier to swing a tree with a humboldt. The angle of the face depends on the tree, terrain, and what you want the butt to do. A steeper face will get the butt on the ground faster. Cutting hardwood on flat ground doesn't usually require a humboldt, but I use them most of the time with a snipe or a scarf to prevent the face from closing to early or to get the butt to jump. The face really has nothing to do with preventing barber chair or fiber pull. Thats all in how you cut the tree and what the tree looks like to begin with.


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## oregoncutter (Feb 13, 2010)

*search the forums!!*



farmboimike said:


> Why is it west coast loggers use Humboldt face cuts ? I also noticed that they dont hardly even cut a thirty degree angle ? In Indiana we generally use a conventional face cut so the stump can be pretty much cut off at the ground and a steeper angle so the tree doesnt split , splinter , barberchair , or pull strands out of the hart wood .. But this is more oak, walnut, maple tree or I should say Hardwood area ? Not questioning the ways of anyone , Just a green horn that wants the info ! Thanks to all that reply !



There should be a mind boggling amount of information on You're question if You look it up.


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## RandyMac (Feb 13, 2010)

Bob pretty well covered it, in short form, without drawing pictures.


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## farmboimike (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok,, Thanks Guys ,, I was just curious


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## DeAvilaTree (Feb 15, 2010)

I'll use the Humbolt on larger trees to get the face cut out of my way


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## rmihalek (Feb 16, 2010)

I read somewhere, maybe here, that the sawmills want the bottom of the log to be flat. The Humboldt does this whereas the conventional notch produces an angled surface on the butt log.


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## Burvol (Feb 16, 2010)

rmihalek said:


> I read somewhere, maybe here, that the sawmills want the bottom of the log to be flat. The Humboldt does this whereas the conventional notch produces an angled surface on the butt log.



Butts have been required to be flushed around me for 20 years now. Safety plus the laser eye reading the log can't have slivers.


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## Metals406 (Feb 16, 2010)

rmihalek said:


> I read somewhere, maybe here, that the sawmills want the bottom of the log to be flat. The Humboldt does this whereas the conventional notch produces an angled surface on the butt log.



It works either way. . . If you're processing machine doesn't have a butt-saw (or the log is too big for a processor), the guy on the landing cuts off all the snipes' anyway. Yes, over a years time, some scale can be saved with the Humboldt -- but I've never seen a logger in these parts fuss over it either way. 

The Humboldt wouldn't alleviate having to remove part of the butt-log anyway, as the holdwood still has to be removed, or any difference between face and backcut.

Folks that haven't logged would be really surprised how often a section of the butt is sawn off for grade. There's a lot of butt-wood left in the slash piles at the end of a job.

Reasons include: Fiber pull, White rot, rotten heart, crooked sections, slabbing, amongst others.


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## Burvol (Feb 16, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> It works either way. . . If you're processing machine doesn't have a butt-saw (or the log is too big for a processor), the guy on the landing cuts off all the snipes' anyway. Yes, over a years time, some scale can be saved with the Humboldt -- but I've never seen a logger in these parts fuss over it either way.
> 
> The Humboldt wouldn't alleviate having to remove part of the butt-log anyway, as the holdwood still has to be removed, or any difference between face and backcut.
> 
> ...




Swell, windshake, worms, conk, pitch rings, cat face, scar, massed pitch, sap rot, sweep, pistol butt.


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## Metals406 (Feb 16, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Swell, windshake, worms, conk, pitch rings, cat face, scar, massed pitch, sap rot, sweep, pistol butt.



Exactly. . . Carpenter ants here too. Those devils will take the heart out of a Fir for 6' of the butt. . . The rind is okay, so the tree looks healthy outwardly. In the Swan Valley -- probably 90% of the nice pumpkin Spruce have heart rot for 10'. It always saddened me to see all the butt-wood left in the woods -- but logging is about making money -- not trying to save what can't be saved.

IMHO, face cuts are kinda a weak argument for scale, but hold great merit for saving-out and making a tree do what the faller wants it to do.


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## Metals406 (Feb 16, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Swell, windshake, worms, conk, pitch rings, cat face, scar, massed pitch, sap rot, sweep, pistol butt.



And speaking of pistol-butt. . . Our Doug Fir here are notorious for it. They grow like weeds, but are about as crooked as all get-out. That's why I like Western Larch, straight from stem to stern (usually). 

You coast guys seem to have some pretty straight Fir though.


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## RandyMac (Feb 16, 2010)

We have plenty of "goosenecks" out here, danged Doug Fir anyways, they will grow a bare rock bluff. I lost my first new chainsaw to a goosenecked DF, I have the story somewhere.


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## Metals406 (Feb 16, 2010)

RandyMac said:


> We have plenty of "goosenecks" out here, danged Doug Fir anyways, they will grow a bare rock bluff. I lost my first new chainsaw to a goosenecked DF, I have the story somewhere.



You got that right Randy. . . The DF are literally called "weeds" by Foresters here. They'll grow about anywhere. . . They just aren't picky.

I should take some pics of my little piece of Montana today. . . I can show the ratio between crooked Doug and straight. The 27 acres I'm on (been here 20 years) is a long term lease though, so I can't thin it . . . It needs it though. When it was logged some 40 years ago, they left "pods" of trees, which is stupid.

The trees fight each other, and all the losers get turned into firewood. Don't get me wrong, having firewood so close is nice, but the trees need to have at least a 10' crown spacing.


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## slowp (Feb 16, 2010)

A weed tree?


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## 056 kid (Feb 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Exactly. . . Carpenter ants here too. Those devils will take the heart out of a Fir for 6' of the butt. . . The rind is okay, so the tree looks healthy outwardly. In the Swan Valley -- probably 90% of the nice pumpkin Spruce have heart rot for 10'. It always saddened me to see all the butt-wood left in the woods -- but logging is about making money -- not trying to save what can't be saved.
> 
> IMHO, face cuts are kinda a weak argument for scale, but hold great merit for saving-out and making a tree do what the faller wants it to do.



I dont know if they are carpenters, but big black ants are often fouund in the butts of red & black oaks back east, chesnuts too. I have cut trees where the center is just doety ant tunnels, the ants come by the thousands! I pour gas on em. .


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## Metals406 (Feb 17, 2010)

056 kid said:


> I dont know if they are carpenters, but big black ants are often fouund in the butts of red & black oaks back east, chesnuts too. I have cut trees where the center is just doety ant tunnels, the ants come by the thousands! I pour gas on em. .



Sounds like a Carpenter Ant to me. . . They're the biggest species of ant we have in Montana. Our climate won't allow Termites to live here -- so the Carpenter ants make up for it. 








> There are eighteen recorded species of carpenter ants in the United States alone. For this reason, carpenter ant identification can be difficult. Size and color of carpenter ants can vary between species and even between individuals within one colony.


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## Metals406 (Feb 17, 2010)

slowp said:


> A weed tree?



Dang slowp, that's a HUGE weed!!! It's tough to find DF here that big anymore. I rigged a skyline in a GF almost that big once. . . 

The coast has far more moisture and less cold, which gives optimal growing conditions for tree species.

We do grow some pretty nice Larch though. . . You can find pockets of 5'-7'ers on the butt.


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## 056 kid (Feb 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Sounds like a Carpenter Ant to me. . . They're the biggest species of ant we have in Montana. Our climate won't allow Termites to live her -- so the Carpenter ants make up for it.



that is them allright. Bout 100 of them could tote you off through the woods LOL.


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## RPM (Feb 17, 2010)

Damn doug-fir weeds


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## Metals406 (Feb 17, 2010)

RPM said:


> Damn doug-fir weeds



Gave ya your first Nova for cut'n down them pesky weeds. LOL


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## hammerlogging (Feb 18, 2010)

056 kid said:


> I dont know if they are carpenters, but big black ants are often fouund in the butts of red & black oaks back east, chesnuts too. I have cut trees where the center is just doety ant tunnels, the ants come by the thousands! I pour gas on em. .



ever cut down a hollow hickory and have about 500 cave crickets crawl out the butt? Thats some freaky #### right there. Not so much in WV, but definately had it back in TN


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## 056 kid (Feb 18, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> ever cut down a hollow hickory and have about 500 cave crickets crawl out the butt? Thats some freaky #### right there. Not so much in WV, but definately had it back in TN



Never while falling timber.

but I have seen about 500 of thoes wolf spider looking bastards under a piece of ply wood in my back yard. I was about 15 when I lifted this piece of wood, the ground along with the under side of the wood was alive. 



That was scary. . . .


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## RPM (Feb 20, 2010)

bees .. .yellow jackets and hornets (esp, in second growth hem-fir stands). SOB ...ouchhh ..


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