# Fall arrest standards for Petzl saddle



## Arbortec01 (Aug 27, 2008)

After trying many different climbing saddles and being uncomfortable, I finally forked over the money for the new Petzl Sequoia saddle, and its super comfortable. I was reading the manual that it comes with though and it says that it is a "sit harness" designed for "work positioning" and hasn't been tested for fall arrest and isn't designed for a vertical fall of more than .5 meters. I am not familiar enough with EN and ANSI standards to know if this is sufficient and safe to be used as my primary work saddle. I would think that I would definitely need a saddle that will uphold much greater than a half of a meter fall (though I've never fallen further than that). 
Can someone with some expertise please explain to me the difference between a saddle suited for work positioning vs one for fall arrest? Is the Seqouia a choice? I would be surprised to find out it isnt, but I was surprised when I read up on the standards in the manual.


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## ddhlakebound (Aug 27, 2008)

Rock climbing saddles are designed for fall arrest, and their attachment point is much the same as a tree climbing saddle, so attachment position must not be the whole deal. 

The difference in the ropes rockers use could be the difference in being able to make the front/waist attachment work for fall arrest, since alot of that falling energy goes into stretching the rope, instead of jolting the fallee when he/she hits the end.


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## Bermie (Aug 28, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I don't think any tree climbing saddles are rated for fall arrest. It not about the strength of the saddle....it's about design and attachment points. Fall arrest harnesses have their attachment points behind the wearers back a little above the shoulder blades. Climbing saddles attachment points are in the front at the waist. Connecting at the waist is never going to be a good point on the human body to arrest a fall. Tree climbers are never supposed to allow slack rope in their climbing system.
> 
> Hopefully someone will step up with some better information.



This is exactly correct.
As per the UK regs LOLER (Lifting operations and lifting equipment regulations) a tree harness is a personal lifting device rated for work positioning to support the climber in the tree and NOT fall arrest. They have different EN (European Norm) numbers for WP and FA, and like you say TreeCo, attachment points are a big part of it. Fall arrest in a tree harness would snap your spine, FA is different from a controlled pendulum swing that does not shock load the system. The Petzl is of European manufacture and therefore comes under EN regulations.
To satisfy the EN 363 for fall arrest the tree harness would have to have a shoulder harness with a rated dorsal or chest attachment ( I think some have that option) then you'd have to add a deceleration device, (energy absorber that limits forces on the body to 6kN) mechanical or those packed lanyards with the tearout section. The addition of the deceleration device is what makes FA impractical for tree work, by the time the device deplys you have probably hit something, not to mention the added bulk and equipment getting in the way.

You shouldn't have more than .25 of a metre of slack in the line, if you fall, then you fall half a metre, any more than that and you are likely to hit something before you stop at the end of your slack, hence the .5 metre vertical fall safety factor they have.

Keep as much slack as possible out of your main climbing line, and use a lanyard as well, any slip and you'll only go for a little ride!


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## 2FatGuys (Aug 29, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I don't think any tree climbing saddles are rated for fall arrest. It not about the strength of the saddle....it's about design and attachment points. Fall arrest harnesses have their attachment points behind the wearers back a little above the shoulder blades. Climbing saddles attachment points are in the front at the waist. Connecting at the waist is never going to be a good point on the human body to arrest a fall. Tree climbers are never supposed to allow slack rope in their climbing system.
> 
> Hopefully someone will step up with some better information.



Buckingham offers a suspender add-on that attaches to many of their saddles that makes them "fall arrest rated". Based on my understanding of the OSHA training I've taken, the issue with fall arrest rating has a lot to do with absorbing shock loads, as well as the effects of prolonged body hang position. The hang point between the shoulder blades seems to be the most common one to meet the OSHA regs.


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## Bermie (Aug 29, 2008)

2FatGuys said:


> Buckingham offers a suspender add-on that attaches to many of their saddles that makes them "fall arrest rated". Based on my understanding of the OSHA training I've taken, the issue with fall arrest rating has a lot to do with absorbing shock loads, as well as the effects of prolonged body hang position. The hang point between the shoulder blades seems to be the most common one to meet the OSHA regs.



Fair enough!

In Europe, the use of a fall arrest harness system is not encouraged for tree work because of the added equipment needed, changing a work position harness to fall arrest makes it usable in other industries, or for bucket work, so shoulder harness add on might be an option to make your work position harness 'legal' for using in a bucket...! I kinda like that option...


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## Climbing Fool (Aug 30, 2008)

He he he. The idea behind wearing a harness is to NOT fall mate. :jester: 

On the other foot, I work on ropes and in a bucket and most of the opinions above tally with my own experience. I have "slipped" but never "fallen" with my Buckingham traverse on and I don't recommend the experience. It isn't the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the bottom. All fall arrest harnesses I have used/seen in Australia differ from climbing harnesses on 3 principal points. 

1. Fall arrest harnesses have over shoulder straps and chest straps so that you cannot fall out of the harness even if you are upside down.

2. Fall arrest harnesses have "between the shoulder blade" anchor points.

3. Fall arrest harnesses have shock absorbing devices within the fixing lanyard. The most common of which is the "folded lanyard" described above.

No climbing harness I have seen/used has any of the 3 points noted above.

It's kinda like, I cut timber with a chainsaw and grind stumps with a stump grinder. Pick the tool for the job. :greenchainsaw:


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## HolmenTree (Sep 4, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> Rock climbing saddles are designed for fall arrest, and their attachment point is much the same as a tree climbing saddle, so attachment position must not be the whole deal.
> 
> The difference in the ropes rockers use could be the difference in being able to make the front/waist attachment work for fall arrest, since alot of that falling energy goes into stretching the rope, instead of jolting the fallee when he/she hits the end.



Yes rock climbing rope is a shock absorbing device its self it is made to stretch. Tree rope has no stretch. Proper tree climbing techniques always call for very little slack in you attachment. How can you properly climb with a split tail for example with your climbing line attached near your shoulders?


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## Mikecutstrees (Sep 5, 2008)

*stretch....*

not to split hairs but tree rope does stretch. More than static rope but less that rock climbing rope. You can see this when descending out of a tree, you put your feet on the ground and unclip and your carabeaner or rope snap contracts to a higher level. Also when climbing and crotched in 40/50 or 60 feet up you can really feel the stretch. So there is some give if you should fall, not much but some..... Mike


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