# Adivce needed: Rotting oak Leaning towards house



## Engineeringnerd (Oct 9, 2007)

A friend of mine has a dead oak leaning fairly heavily in the direction of the corner of his house. Two complicating factors, the tree is loosing its bark and has fungus growing (dead for 2+ years) and has rot. The top is losing branches. The 2nd issue is that a leaning tree in front of the tree that needs to be felled would "funnel" the dead tree towards the house. Here are two pics; the tree has a yellow tape around its base:

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/engineeringnerd/?action=view&current=OakfallingtowardshouseMayshome.jpg

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/engineeringnerd/?action=view&current=DirectionoffallofoaknearhouseMaysho.jpg

Obviously a bucket truck would be best (don't have one). I don't think a climber would attempt it. I don't feel the tree is going to be sound enough to swing it substantially.

Default Approach: Cut the small healthy tree in the front, put a rope on the top of the rotted tree (give healthy pull first to see if top breaks out), then notch the tree so the hinge is 3" on the side away from the house and 2" on the side closest to the house to give a little pull away from the house. Have rope pullers (or rigging if I can get it in) to pull perpendicular to fall (by hand) to help it along and away from the house.


What do y'all think?


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## ASD (Oct 9, 2007)

climb the larger tree next to it swing over and start piecing it out or rent a lift and piece it out but know what your limit's are and b safe


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks for the input. I don't climb; basically I'm a proficient weekend lumberjack . I'm usually pretty wary about getting in the batter's box on a tree that might crumble. I'm going to sound the tree and may drill a few cores to see how solid it is. If the core is solid, I think I can cut the face and side bore to establish the hinge and finish with either cutting the "trigger" with a saw or even an axe to keep my distance. I have a pulley block, so giving the top a good tug with a truck before starting to cut may break off the top if its really rotten.

My biggest concerns are the tree collapsing on itself while sawing (side boring should mitigate barbering). Maybe I'll run by and sample the wood this evening and give an update on the forum.


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## SWE#Kipp (Oct 9, 2007)

I have used my "maasdam com-along" on some dead trees and it have worked nice as long as I only have a slight tension on the rope when I start to cut, I bore cut insert a wedge cut the strap and then use the "com-along" to get the tree falling ,,,,, that might not explain the process as good as like but maybe it will give you an idea on how I approach it ,,


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 9, 2007)

SWE,

One of the issues with this tree is I'd like to make it fall about 15 degrees to the right of where it is pointed by nature. Given some rot, I'm not sure how much the hinge can take if I try to "nurse it" too much in any direction other than its natural fall.

I think I understand your technique. In this case the tree will go over in the general direction without wedges, It probably has a 10 - 15 degree lean.


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## Dadatwins (Oct 9, 2007)

An oak tree with that much decay will usually not hold a hinge that well, they are more apt to break. Options might be to set some rigging in the larger oak next to it and tie the dead tree off at the top and cut it at the bottom. Of course this is a complicated approach and requires knowledge of how sound the wood on the dead tree is. Do not want it break at the tie in point. The tie and pull method would work also. With enough rigging and solid pulling you should be able to overcome the lean. Just calculate the drop zone and any obstacles. Be careful of any 'jerking' on that type of decayed tree. Slow, steady pull always best. 'Jerking' a tree like that to test it can result in it breaking anywhere along the trunk on the backswing. Be careful.


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## CA arborista (Oct 9, 2007)

Start with the fact that you can't control oaks like you can evergreens. The tree is too dangerous to put a climber in - if you're going to pull it, set the choker or rope with another method. Swing from sound wood or use a bucket or man-lift (cheap to rent). Watch out for any branches that can influence the fall of the tree (roll or push). And pray.


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## Ekka (Oct 10, 2007)

It's hard when we dont get 3D vision, can it be felled sideway like I've arrowed?

Can yo get a shot of that direction from fall location please.

I need to see shots from intended fall direction ... I cant see the forest coz of the tree syndrome.  

Also, dont go coring and carrying on with that BS.

If the tree is standing now that's all that matters!

I have ideas for strengthening hinges that work, and shatterable spars too.

Please, shots from intended fall directions, shot straight up the trunk see what we got, shot about where you'd cut the scarf thanks.

No matter what, we can do better than nature!


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## Ekka (Oct 10, 2007)

Important part about adjusting the gun for felling leaners is you have to know how much.

How I do this is stand under the extremity of the lean, when I know I'm dead under the top then measure the distance to the trunk. Call this distance *X*

Then you stand where you would like the tree to fall as far from the trunk as the top of the tree would land (yes, you have to estimate the tree ht). Then you measure out the same *X* as above to the opposite side of the lean and notch to that point ... want to be safer notch a little further around.  Be aware of things like the stretch in the rope etc.

*Lean holding rope must be set at 90 degrees to the notch!*

Cant be anything in the way of that lean holding rope, it must stay in tension all the way to the ground.

The lean holding rope must be strong. The force on the rope if all is done correctly wont exceed the weight of the tree unless you stuff this up ...

... *most common stuff up* is the rope is not at 90 degrees to the notch. If the rope is under 90 degrees to the notch as the tree starts to fall the rope goes slack ... then comes trouble ... the tree breaks off the hinge and starts to fall toward natural lean resulting in slack being taken up rather quickly with the inertia of the moving weight of the tree ... BAM, SHOCK LOAD, SNAPPED ROPE and a house wearing a tree.

*Another common stuff up* is the rope being at an angle greater then 90 degrees. Now this one is interesting ... as the tree tries to fall the rope will try to pull it back onto the stump ... the long leverage of the tree plus the moving weight will either bust your rope or tear the tree off the hingewood and try to slew the tree too far around to the opposite side of the lean, trouble is when this happens the tree will be out of control.

Also in a dramatic lean example you need a pull rope to assist the tree falling, means you can also leave a fatter tapered hinge (fatter side of taper opposite the lean of course).


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's the situation I posed to Ekka that he is responding to:

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/...urrent=071010DescriptionofrottenoaktoEk-1.flv

Nerd


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## John464 (Oct 10, 2007)

there is no need for a climber, nor a bucket. all you need is a throwball a saw and a rope. set a high line in a crotch in adjacent live tree. after you got your crotch. throw the ball up to about 3/4 the way up the dead one. send running bowline up the dead one. test for breakage. if looks like it could break apart. set an additional line through a different live crotch in same direction as your first one. cut dead tree at bottom and notch towards your line set. Gradually lower it down under cutting the but till its on the ground. no matter the lean it will go towards your lines set if rigged properly and notched correctly.

should have that tree rigged and on the ground in less than an hour. pretty easy when you have many options of rigging off suroounding live trees.


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## rbtree (Oct 10, 2007)

Right John, that tree looks a breeze done that way. Don it many times, and with larger trees as well.

ekka and nerd, your hold line is too far off the intended fall direction. It would swing the tree right to the scarfed gun...or break the rope.


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## Ekka (Oct 11, 2007)

rbtree said:


> Right John, that tree looks a breeze done that way. Don it many times, and with larger trees as well.
> 
> ekka and nerd, your hold line is too far off the intended fall direction. It would swing the tree right to the scarfed gun...or break the rope.



We want it to swing right, did you even look at the diagrams?

This is why I make videos proving fact.

I did read in your posts I think that you broke ropes on felling leaners because you didn't do it right.

Answer this, if the tree is holding up now without a rope will it be worse off with a rope tensioned holding up it's side weight?

If you answer yes (will be worse off with a rope) then guy wiring of trees is all myth. The tree *HINGES* on hingewood. Forces to tear out the hinge wood on the side opposite the lean are relieved by the side rope ... the weight is on the rope for side force and the hinge only has to hold the weight of the tree.

In my video I turned that tree past 90 degrees, and dead trees are lighter, no canopy, less wind resistance.

That to me would be a half hour op dropping that, walk away, one cut, easy, no risk.

What if the hinge busts? The tree will still have the side rope making fall the intended direction, you just make that notch and backcut low to the ground where you have wide flare and less vertical drop for the trunk.

Not only that, I mentioned strengthening the hinge and haven't even covered that, nor the potential hinge breaking situation.

Pity, you still think Earths flat too?


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 11, 2007)

Ekka,

It's always interesting when things heat up a bit! All I know is that I want to spend as little time under this tree as possible, given its condition. One issue I may run into is not having enough free space for the side rope to swing without hitting other trees, which the owner isn't going to want to cut down.

Here's a video showing how I have interpreted your instructions for side roping. Please tell me if I missed something or heard wrong (the hosting site cut off the last 10 seconds, nothing significant lost):

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/...rrent=071010DescriptionofEkkasleancutmeth.flv


Thanks

ENerd


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## Ekka (Oct 11, 2007)

Well if you dont have clearance for side rope then ya stuffed, that's one of the first things you need to check ... have a good look.

Bore cut? Well, if you were doing a conventional back cut and you also had a pull rope pretensioned a little you might have the tree going early on a fatter hinge.

Before you go any further you need to see if there is clearance for the side rope.


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 11, 2007)

Ekka,

Will check on the rope clearance before starting.


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## John464 (Oct 11, 2007)

Ekka said:


> What if the hinge busts? The tree will still have the side rope making fall the intended direction, you just make that notch and backcut low to the ground where you have wide flare and less vertical drop for the trunk.
> 
> 
> > Correct the hinge can bust given how dead it is. This would not matter if a lowering rope is holding the tree up. The side rope can also break the tree in half and ending up holding nothing but a section of it, leaving the remainder heading in an unintentional direction.
> ...


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## Ekka (Oct 12, 2007)

And you might have an accident driving there.

What if the lowering rope attachment point to the tree broke?

You stand just the same issues there.

You know, I wonder how many climbers out there are reading this thinking ... hey, I can slew dirty great branches, leaning and otherwise a whole 180 degrees if I want, to turn a horizontal limb 90 degrees to a good climber/rigger is a piece of piss. Here we have gravity being a lot kinder to us than up a tree.

The other day we felled this in sections, large back leaners and side leaners over a fence, turned the lot. And it was dead as a door nail.

Didn't even have top ropes (just side pull rope) to help out, just skill, no damage, fence not hit, little tree underneath not hit.

Did it 3 parts, and yes, they would have reached the house and yes, they were well past the fence, and cop a load of the side lean and weight on those branches.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Oct 12, 2007)

Climb the larger tree to the right, saddle in plus a lanyard. Have someone send up a Sthil stick pruner & reach over & cut it up in little drop pieces.
I have done this many times. If not possibe to cut & drop, use a rope & hook-pole. Place a rope through a crotch above yourself, toss the tail over the ajacent limb you can cut with the pruner, tie it with a sliding bowline. Someone on the ground to control the piece to be cut & get busy. this whole job should be accomplished quickly & most of all safely. There is a snap hole right by the throtle on the Sthil so you can tie it off as not to half to hold it continuously during this operation. ALWAYS STAY SAFE & GOOD LUCK !


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## John464 (Oct 12, 2007)

Ekka said:


> And you might have an accident driving there.
> 
> What if the lowering rope attachment point to the tree broke?
> 
> You stand just the same issues there.



No you dont. Have you ever seen this method done? That is why you test for breakage and when in doubt you add another lowering rope. Have you read my post? The tree(dead one) with many crotches that close can be gradually winched over to the live tree by a few men pulling up on the lowering rope while closing the scarf. This exhibits much less force then your method of the tree coming down abrubtly. Its a good method dont get me wrong(for a live tree), but in this circumstance with the possiblities of breakage should be minimized. Having the tree go over easy/slowly will put less sudden pressure.


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## Ekka (Oct 13, 2007)

Yeah I know, done it before with a GRCS style device.

But I'm consulting here for the side lean wham bam thank you mam drop, it's a cinch too, one cut, all over.

He gave me the criteria for felling the side leaner, others suggested the live high points etc but that's not what I'm here for.

If side rope has clearance this isn't hard, sometimes I feel like taking out a huge ad asking for leaning trees for experimental felling ... I just need a dynamometer to hook up to the side rope to measure forces to prove what I already suspect.


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 13, 2007)

Dynamometer! Now this _is_ getting interesting.


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## stumpjumper83 (Oct 13, 2007)

I duno, for what a man lift costs to rent I think I'd be doing it that way if I wasn't competent in rigging and pullin stuff. The other option is to have a pro feller look at it. someone that drops semi loads of logs a day gets pretty good at eye ballin 'um and puttin 'um where he wants. Anyhow if you don't have the proper equipment or skills, its best left to a pro. They don't call standing dead timber a widow maker for nothin.


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## Dadatwins (Oct 13, 2007)

With out seeing the whole picture rigging the tree out by tying it off to the larger tree would be the safest method. The rigging could be set from th e ground with a throwline and the tree would be down quickly. However like I said before this requires some knowledge of the tools and equipment and also selecting a proper tie-in place on both the rigging tree and the removal tree. With out that experience, a heavy pull-line, something to pull with and a sharp saw will get the tree down. The danger in this would be the top hanging and breaking off as the tree falls and the chainsaw operator standing underneath admiring the landscape as the top breaks off and comes back at him as he watches the trunk fall over. If you are going to fall the tree from the ground, make sure nothing is in the way of the fall, make sure you have an escape path away from the tree, and make sure whoever is pulling the tree has enough rope to be out of the way also. Short ropes and tall trees make for a bad day.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Oct 13, 2007)

Try dynomite !!!


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 13, 2007)

Good news, we got the rotting, leaning tree in question down where we wanted it and didn't have to saw down the large tree in front of it. All in all we Dropped 4 trees, two of them heavy, rotted leaners near property without causing any damage to property, people, or equipment. The other two trees were small and easy.

For the rotten leaner discussed in this thread a hybrid approach incorporating Ekka's side pull technique, pulling high in the tree at 90 degrees CW from the scarf in conjunction with a steel cable a little lower in the tree pulling at about a 30 degree CW from the scarf; Both lines being pulled by vehicles. The 30 degree pull was used to pull the tree off and around a binding tree in front that was going to funnel it towards the house. We kept the 90 degree line taut by moving its vehicle until the tree started to fall. Once the fall started, the 30 degree side line went slack (more in line with the fall) and the 90 degree line stayed taut and controlled the arc of the tree to the ground. I filmed the job, so I may have a video to share in the future. Then again, I may not if I feel it will draw fire from the forum!

_Things I didn't like about my work today_: I couldn't get either pull lines as taut around the tree as I'd have liked. The loops kept getting snagged on smaller branches and stubs as I tightened the loops up into the trees. They held fine, but I'd like for them to "choke" the tree in a nice, tight circumference. I made the loops by casting a line over the trees, dragging one end of the pull line over a crotch, then by using a running bow line for the rope @ 90 degrees and a thimble for the cable @ 30 degrees. I then pulled the pull side as the loop closed around the tree. Lots of hang-ups on the way up. Advice accepted!


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Oct 13, 2007)

Question: Did any other tops or limbs break out and fall into your work area ? Happy you got it down safely and no one was injured !


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## Engineeringnerd (Oct 13, 2007)

Some branches fell out as the leaner broke free from the tree in front of it, but I was long gone by then. I also was careful to cut on the safest side of the tree to keep the bogies as far aways as possible.

The biggest risk was if the tree would have collapsed on itself. We pulled pretty hard on the top to see if it would break free before beginning cutting and the top didn't break or the tree fall over giving me confidence to cut and drop the thing.


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## joesawer (Oct 13, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Yeah I know, done it before with a GRCS style device.
> 
> But I'm consulting here for the side lean wham bam thank you mam drop, it's a cinch too, one cut, all over.
> 
> ...



If you are thinking that it takes a lot less to hold a tree on the hinge with a guy rope than many people think, I think you are right. 
IMO if there are no shock loads or conflicts it does not require a huge amount of support to hold the tree from the side.


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## Ekka (Oct 14, 2007)

Well I'm happy for you, and you see, wasn't that bad.

Your 30 degree rope was your primary pull rope to get it moving, for the amount of turn we were looking for you need that.

Your 90 degree rope kept it on track.

Looking forward to your video, dont let the knockers worry you, lets see what went on.

joesawer, I do think the forces are a lot lower than most people anticipate. The weight of the tree is mainly down the trunk ... however incorrect alignment could result in shock loading as I mentioned in a post earlier.


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