# Biner, Snap or Knot?



## tree md (Sep 1, 2010)

Any of you use a biner or a snap on your lowering line?

I remember a debate on here about this topic a few years back but I thought it would be fun to kick the topic around again.

I have recently tied a double locking snap onto one of my older climb/tag lines for the big trees I have been doing lately. I have been using it as a lanyard as I can pull as much line as I need to get around the spar. I just left the snap on there and had my guys send it up to me for a tag line. He loved it. Said he much preferred it over a tied knot as it was easier for him to take it off of the log. He asked me why we don't do the same on the lowering line. I told him because I don't trust it on a lowering line. 

I have been doing it forever with a knot and just can't bring myself to use a snap or biner for lowering operations. I have seen others do it that way and I'm sure it's faster but I have always stuck with a running bowline. Sure, on a tag line OK... But not when I've got big weight on the line.

Thoughts/comments?


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## ozzy42 (Sep 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> Any of you use a biner or a snap on your lowering line?
> 
> I remember a debate on here about this topic a few years back but I thought it would be fun to kick the topic around again.
> 
> ...



I have used a snap a few times where all we're doing is small limbs that are just heavy enough that you can't hold onto them.
Other than that,me sticks to me old Rb and,or clove hitch w/2 half hitches.


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> I have used a snap a few times where all we're doing is small limbs that are just heavy enough that you can't hold onto them.
> Other than that,me sticks to me old Rb and,or clove hitch w/2 half hitches.


:agree2:
Same here - I can't just make myself trust snap or beaner on heavy stuff


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 1, 2010)

I like the idea of using it for a tag line but like others said, not sure I'd want to trust it on my main lowering line. Also, it's nice to not need to worry about untying a biner in order to recrotch your running line. I worked with a climber years back that had a big snap braided into the end of his 3 strand running line. Always needed to be careful undoing it near windows/wires/etc. that it wouldn't take a swing as soon as it left the ground.


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## mattfr12 (Sep 1, 2010)

half hitch with a running bow line.


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> half hitch with a running bow line.



If you have a fork- seen coupla of climbers trying that on smooth-bark trees and an running bow line lets them go - it might be a personal opinion but for me it is always a glove hitch if you are in doubt


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## tree md (Sep 1, 2010)

I like a clove hitch with a half hitch backing it up on slick bark trees or pieces where I have no nub or crook to set my knot over to help catch the piece. Got to be careful though, I've heard more than a couple of guys say they've had a clove hitch roll out on them. Personally, I only use it on relatively light limbs. I used to use it on chunks but no longer do so. I use a running bowline and a half hitch on all chunks that I lower.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 1, 2010)

I used to like sling and carabiner for rigging. then I got tired of labor grade groundies having problems figuring out how to open them up, all day long. So I came up with the "daisey-chain bo'lin" Sort of a highwayman's knot, one pull of the tail releases it, easy to work with in winter gloves.

Start as if you are going to tie a running bo'lin, but tuck a couple bights into each other instead.

I've posted pictures in the past.

The thing i don't like about snaps is the wear on the line, I've seen a couple part under load.


The half-hitch or marl before a terminal knot is good practice on larger loads, or where you are unsure of set. Multiple marls works well when rigging out large deadwood in a critical area, since the marl is an overhand knot, it will hold onto wood that breaks.

I will also use a marl if I am rigging out multiple limbs in a tight LZ, say you want a whole top out, but the spread will not fit between house and trunk; marl the first few limbs and a terminal hitch of your choice at the end. 

Cutting sequence is situational, but usually from the terminal knot up the line.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 1, 2010)

TonyX3M said:


> If you have a fork- seen coupla of climbers trying that on smooth-bark trees and an running bow line lets them go - it might be a personal opinion but for me it is always a glove hitch if you are in doubt



I'd argue that one with you. We do alot of ice storm damage throughout the winter, running bowline has never slipped on me, have had problems with the clove on ice. If i'm worried about the bowline slipping, just throw in a marl. 

Running bowline all the time for us, marl added if concerned.


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## tree md (Sep 1, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I used to like sling and carabiner for rigging. then I got tired of labor grade groundies having problems figuring out how to open them up, all day long. So I came up with the "daisey-chain bo'lin" Sort of a highwayman's knot, one pull of the tail releases it, easy to work with in winter gloves.
> 
> Start as if you are going to tie a running bo'lin, but tuck a couple bights into each other instead.
> 
> ...



I'd be interested in seeing your variation of the RB, got a link to the pic?

I never thought about using a half hitch when lowering multiple limbs. I have always used a clove hitch and terminated with a running bowline. Seems like the marl or half hitch would be very apt to roll out?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> I'd be interested in seeing your variation of the RB, got a link to the pic?
> 
> I never thought about using a half hitch when lowering multiple limbs. I have always used a clove hitch and terminated with a running bowline. Seems like the marl or half hitch would be very apt to roll out?




A marl is an overhand knot, a half-hitch can capsize and drop the load.

I have them somewhere, got a vid camera to now, but no time to shoot & edit.








here is one in the AS archive

As tied here, when the tail is pulled it will become an overhand, If I tuck the tail back under the working rope it will open completely.


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## tree md (Sep 1, 2010)

Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try. 

OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> I like a clove hitch with a half hitch backing it up on slick bark trees or pieces where I have no nub or crook to set my knot over to help catch the piece. Got to be careful though, I've heard more than a couple of guys say they've had a clove hitch roll out on them. Personally, I only use it on relatively light limbs. I used to use it on chunks but no longer do so. I use a running bowline and a half hitch on all chunks that I lower.



If you ever heard (I never did) of clove hitch rolling down is stupidity [(it has to be tied correctly of course) which a lot of newer climbers cant do]- running bowline has only a half (if not less) grip- latter one you should use only (!) if you got a crotch to tie it behind!
Cut some 1,5 ton pieces on that - never had a problem 
:chainsawguy:


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## Grace Tree (Sep 1, 2010)

Here's a 50kN biner we straightened on a recent rigging fiasco that went very badly. We've used 9/16" Stablebraid with spiced eye and steel biners the last 3 or 4 years and continue to use that setup with confidence. We've always rigged accordingly in weight. This was catastrophic loading causing the sharp edge of the straightened biner latch to cut the rope. I don't think a knot would have saved this one. 'Hurts me to even think about it.
Phil


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try.
> 
> OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?=QUOTE]
> 
> It is basically the separated clove hitch - if you put two wraps really close to each other it would be- what the actual name is for it - don't know


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try.
> 
> OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?



That is a separated clove hitch


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## tree md (Sep 1, 2010)

Not a clove hitch. It's probably hard to tell in the last pic. It's basically just 1 turn around the standing part of the line. I'm terrible with the names of knots. I know how to tie them but often don't know the proper name.

Anyway, you can probably tell better in this pic:


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

:agree2: its not - but by looks of it it does same job -dont know how to call it either - btw did you guys seen pix of that biner? - holy crap!


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 1, 2010)

I use krabs (aka knotless rigging) for lowering most of my limbs, then go to a running bow (w/ half hitch if needed) for the logs or anything that may impact. I like the krab on the end of the rope because its faster, easy to clip on your belt as you go out on a limb to set it, won't pull through a block or pulley, and it throws nice.

Just like anything, you need to know the gears limitations and when to deploy it.


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## Job Corps Tree (Sep 1, 2010)

*Biner,Snap or Knot*

The only time we use a Biner is when the ground'y can't untie a Knot


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## tree MDS (Sep 1, 2010)

Job Corps Tree said:


> The only time we use a Biner is when the ground'y can't untie a Knot



Yeah, I'm not seeing any significant time savings happening with a biner..

Groundy that can't untie a knot? I've had my share of bad ones, but they all managed that one..


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

Job Corps Tree said:


> The only time we use a Biner is when the ground'y can't untie a Knot



Oh, I've seen some some groundys who couldn't untie their shoelaces - I always tell them "work smarter not harder - get you some slack in line !" 8 out of ten times newbies just don't listen - I would of get myself fired when I started, over stuff like that -we even took climbers spikes off for him- climber waiting for a goundy -that was unheard of!!!


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## tree MDS (Sep 1, 2010)

TonyX3M said:


> Oh, I've seen some some groundys who couldn't untie their shoelaces - I always tell them "work smarter not harder - get you some slack in line !" 8 out of ten times newbies just don't listen - I would of get myself fired when I started, over stuff like that -we even took climbers spikes off for him- climber waiting for a goundy -that was unheard of!!!



Any dude asks you to take his spikes off for him deserves fifty rapid to the head with a pole saw section.. just saying.

BTW: welcome to the site!


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## TonyX3M (Sep 1, 2010)

Hell fire son - that is hes saying - but I do agree to take your spikes off if yo have actively climbing over 40 years -if not for nothing else I do respect elderly
BTW thank you


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 1, 2010)

Larry, that is almost a marl, your turn is upside down. It adds that extra twist in the line.







A marl is like what you start tying your shoes with, and overhand knot; but with a load in the turn.

It should dress out neatly and tail fair to the backup, which you are using a running bo'lin.






This is a marline, note the z-like pattern that forms with the dress. Here is an animation:

http://www.marinews.com/Marline-Hitch-615.php

The importance is that the bend of the line is less acute, which means a higher WLL.

Do i make sense?


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 1, 2010)

I used a biner once on wood and bent it at the gate , so it wouldn't open and we had to beat it off, first and last time ....


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I used a biner once on wood and bent it at the gate , so it wouldn't open and we had to beat it off, first and last time ....



I was running ropes once and watched the gate roll open, and the rod start to bend. Got it on the ground in the nick of time. Tensioning the system moved the carabiner, and the knurling on the gate hung up on the bark, the movement was in the direction of turn to open the gate....


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 1, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I was running ropes once and watched the gate roll open, and the rod start to bend. Got it on the ground in the nick of time. Tensioning the system moved the carabiner, and the knurling on the gate hung up on the bark, the movement was in the direction of turn to open the gate....



It seems a little dangerous to use too many parts in the rigging I like rope to tree and on the ground rope to a porta wrap , I have started to use a false crotch in removals as well , ropes have jumped alot in price ..


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> It seems a little dangerous to use too many parts in the rigging I like rope to tree and on the ground rope to a porta wrap , I have started to use a false crotch in removals as well , ropes have jumped alot in price ..



It is when you do not understand the forces involved, add new things a few at a time. Even when you've been doing things for years, you can be thrown for a loop. 

I will not use sewn loops, because I have seen two cut themselves under light loading. One edge abrades another and cuts like butter.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 1, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> It is when you do not understand the forces involved, add new things a few at a time. Even when you've been doing things for years, you can be thrown for a loop.
> 
> I will not use sewn loops, because I have seen two cut themselves under light loading. One edge abrades another and cuts like butter.



Less moving parts the better for me , I even keep my saddle simple , I think that when you physically tire , your already mentally tired and forgetful ...


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## treemandan (Sep 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try.
> 
> OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?



Oh yeah! I see it now. Not! And I just use a knot too.


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## tree md (Sep 1, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Larry, that is almost a marl, your turn is upside down. It adds that extra twist in the line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, makes perfect sense. Looks like I've been tying it backwards. I've studied it in the ABOK and I think I've even got a Sherrill shirt with it illustrated on the front. Just kind of hard to translate what you see in an illustration to a real world application sometimes...


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## pdqdl (Sep 1, 2010)

I only use hardware for a termination when the load is light.

Regardless of the load rating of the hardware used, the radius of the rope bending around small diameter steel weakens it. You will break the rope at a load much reduced from the rated capacity.

I broke a 3/4" bull rope once using a rescue-8 as a friction device. The rope went "PING", and I crushed a stone wall. That same rope had handled many larger loads before, but it couldn't handle the shear going around the 1/2" round steel.

The rescue-8 was unblemished.


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## mattfr12 (Sep 2, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Almost 25 years now and a marl and running bowline have yet to fail me.



for sure ive yet to see a half hitch slip off if seated properly let alone a marl slipping.


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 2, 2010)

we use both, always watching the dynamic load, I dont like butt hitching big stuff with biners, but I have. Have never had one fail(yet). I like using them with the i2i big green sling at Sherrill, I like the speed of the biners as goundies move faster, also, I take up multiple sets, so while I am waiting for the rope, I can set another and soon as I get it, I clip in and send another to them,job moves real fast that way. I always use a false crotch (CMI stainless), tired of ropes getting burnt from running over the bark
In other words, I use alot of metal! I trust it pretty well, as long as you stay within its KN rating it should be fine. The thing I look at is the gate, I like the ones with the screw gate, the twist ones make me nervous as I think it would be possible to flip one open in mid air with a big swing, so I stay away from those.


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## Bermie (Sep 3, 2010)

I have a steel biner in the end of my 9/16 bull rope...

Either I use a 1 ton polyester round sling (the slings are those nice fat soft ones, polyester core with a cover, they have no sharp edges) and clip the biner to it...or...tie the half hitch/clove hitch and the biner finishes the knot...clipped.

That is, until Saturday when my rigging kit fell off the bucket truck (I didn't load it) bye bye, 200' of 9/16, two steel biners, two 1 ton round slings, 1- 6" cmi pulley and two log tongs...


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## tree md (Sep 3, 2010)

Bermie said:


> I have a steel biner in the end of my 9/16 bull rope...
> 
> Either I use a 1 ton polyester round sling (the slings are those nice fat soft ones, polyester core with a cover, they have no sharp edges) and clip the biner to it...or...tie the half hitch/clove hitch and the biner finishes the knot...clipped.
> 
> That is, until Saturday when my rigging kit fell off the bucket truck (I didn't load it) bye bye, 200' of 9/16, two steel biners, two 1 ton round slings, 1- 6" cmi pulley and two log tongs...



Ouch! That's gotta hurt.


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## Bermie (Sep 3, 2010)

tree md said:


> Ouch! That's gotta hurt.



Yeah...at least $350...on a $150 job No sign of it, checked and rechecked the route...radio announcements, called the talk show...facebooked...nada


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## tree md (Sep 3, 2010)

The whole neighborhood is prolly hanging clothes on it now...


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## Bermie (Sep 3, 2010)

tree md said:


> The whole neighborhood is prolly hanging clothes on it now...



Or got their boats tied up nice and tight for the storm...


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 4, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Or got their boats tied up nice and tight for the storm...



Or the kids found it and set up one hell of a zip line out in the woods , so I would venture to say that someone left the bag on the side of the truck or up top on the headache rack, it happens , I lost a few 200ts up there one almost whacked a public transit bus when it fell at a light...


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## Bermie (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh I know where it was...in the bucket on top of the saws, the bucket is a cage type with bars, unfortunately I was in front driving the dump truck.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 8, 2010)

Bermie said:


> I have a steel biner in the end of my 9/16 bull rope...
> 
> Either I use a 1 ton polyester round sling (the slings are those nice fat soft ones, polyester core with a cover, they have no sharp edges) and clip the biner to it...or...tie the half hitch/clove hitch and the biner finishes the knot...clipped.
> 
> That is, until Saturday when my rigging kit fell off the bucket truck (I didn't load it) bye bye, 200' of 9/16, two steel biners, two 1 ton round slings, 1- 6" cmi pulley and two log tongs...



I had around $2k of rigging stuff disappear off my truck last year. The previous job it was used on every one assured me it went onto the truck, I trust the entire crew. There were a couple jobsites that had construction on or near. I coulda left the box unlocked


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## Bermie (Sep 8, 2010)

Oh, I feel your pain!


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