# Square filing. Who has tried, and given up?



## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

There used to be a lot of talk about square filing on here. Lately there hasn't been much, so I was wondering how many have tried and given up, and how many have been successful in learning to file this way.

Andy


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## wvlogger (Jul 3, 2010)

I think i could if I would try but the 1 time i did try I failed. No were near as easy to learn as round filing


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## J.W Younger (Jul 3, 2010)

redprospector said:


> There used to be a lot of talk about square filing on here. Lately there hasn't been much, so I was wondering how many have tried and given up, and how many have been successful in learning to file this way.
> 
> Andy


I am still square filing. Geting better and faster at it all the time.
Have you ever filed any .325
Oregon lpx .325 actually has little side beaks on it out of the box (like square filed low)and cuts well before filing but a 3/16 file blunts this.
A few sharpenings with a goofy and its close to square but the tie links do a number on the file.
The double bevel is a little narrower tho and thats what I'm using now on both the .325 and the 3/8.
Anyway just letting you know I havent given up.
Thanks Jerry


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## mdavlee (Jul 3, 2010)

I got half way decent at it and then haven't done it in 4 months. I need to get the 2 chains I've got out and use them some.


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

I know it's not for everyone, and it's not as easy as learning to round file but in my opinion once you learn to file this way and when to touch up it is no more difficult to maintain than a round filed chain.
My main reason for this thread was to encourage those who want to learn.

Andy


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## mdavlee (Jul 3, 2010)

I might go take a picture or 2 of what I done last time I was sharpening and see what you think.


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> I am still square filing. Geting better and faster at it all the time.
> Have you ever filed any .325
> Oregon lpx .325 actually has little side beaks on it out of the box (like square filed low)and cuts well before filing but a 3/16 file blunts this.
> A few sharpenings with a goofy and its close to square but the tie links do a number on the file.
> ...



Good deal, I'm glad you're still working at it and seeing good results. 
I tried it on .325 a long time ago, but just once. Everything I've got is set up for 3/8" except for my bike saw and it's .404. For me keeping everything set up for 3/8" chain just simplifies everything.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I might go take a picture or 2 of what I done last time I was sharpening and see what you think.



Yeah, that would be good. We all like pictures.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

Here's an old picture of a cutter I filed. The angle of the top plate could have been a little steeper for all around cutting, but I was cutting good clean Ponderosa pine at the time and this angle will cut a little faster in clean pine.
The best angle for all around would put the corner line from the working corner (outside corner) to the inside corner of the cutter.







Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Here's one I'm uploading some more. This chain was sent to Teddyscout with a 28" rw bar. I never asked him if it cut good.



It's hard to tell from the pic but it looks like you might be a little high in the working corner of the cutter. There should be a definate line left from the corner of the file. Optimality for all around cutting that line should go from the outside corner of the cutter to the inside corner of the cutter.
But it looks like you were off to a good start. I think you should dig those chains out and keep going. 

One way to tell if you're getting a little high in the corner with the file is if the top cutting edge develops a curve. If you're too high the edge on the top plate won't be straight.

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm still filing square. . . And bought a square grinder that I have yet to setup.

I prefer square to round. . . A LOT!

I just don't like paying $10.00 a file for square.


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

In the second picture you posted I can see that you are definately a little high in the working corner. Get the file to match exactly in the working corner and you will see a definate improvement. The gullet is also on the verge of needing to be cleaned out with a round file. All in all it looks like you are doing pretty good. 
It's hard to teach this without doing it in person, and even harder to learn it that way. My hat's off to you for putting in the effort. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> I'm still filing square. . . And bought a square grinder that I have yet to setup.
> 
> I prefer square to round. . . A LOT!
> 
> I just don't like paying $10.00 a file for square.



Yeah, the price of files has gone nut's. I remember griping about paying $3.85 for a Pferd 8" goofy file. I wish they were that price again.
I've got a Silvey swing arm grinder that a friend gave me. I used it yesterday on one chain. But I'm still at the point that I can file them better and faster than I can grind them.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I really tried to not get that curve. I have a few teeth that are shorter than the others from having to get that out. If anything I usually end up with a little side beak. It's hard for me to use it a lot as most of the wood I'm cutting is on the ground or has been dragged in the dirt. The gullet on that chain does need cleaning the next time I sharpen it. That chain is the 20" for playing in clean wood when I get a chance. I have some semi skip in 28" that I've used bucking firewood. They aren't as good as that one as I hit something in a piece of wood.



With a "side beak" it will usually cut like mad, but just for a short time because there is nothing to support the cutting edge of the top plate and it will wear down quickly. It just takes a *lot* of practice (just doing it). Then it becomes muscle memory & eyesight.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah at first I was getting a lot of side beaks. It cut great for a couple cuts and then a big oak knot would peel the top of the cutter off. On the last couple chains I really got a lot better and they were sharp a lot longer. If i had time to cut a lot more I would get some more practice. I've only got to cut 2 times in the last 2 months.



Yeah, it sux when you don't get to use it much, makes the learning process take that much longer.
When I first started filing square I was falling for a mill here. An old timer took me under his wing and taught me. One of his rules for teaching me was that if he caught me with a round filed chain on my saw before I had mastered the square, he was through teaching. If all you do is square file it dosen't take near as long to master it.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 3, 2010)

Here's a couple more old pic's of cutters I filed.











If your gullet looks like this, you've gone way too far. 





Andy


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## galde (Jul 3, 2010)

Has anyone tried the mount-on-bar square filing guide in the Bailey's catalog? It looks like a good set-up, but I wonder how stable the tooth is when the bar groove and drive link get a little sloppy with wear.


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## forestryworks (Jul 3, 2010)

I'd like to try some square grind some day. But for now semi-chisel works the best in these dirty snags. Especially the hardwoods.


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## lotawood (Jul 3, 2010)

I tried square chain a couple of years ago. I liked the faster speed. But I gave up because it was taking a long time to file. At the time,for me, the extra time needed to file it added up to way more time than the faster cutting speed gave.
I do plan on giving another try. I had the flat square file set up in the oregon equivalent to the grandenberg guide. I set that up at the tip of the bar nose and set the angles for the teeth. I used a magic marker to mark the position of the guide. It actually worked pretty good, just took a long time. I am a year ahead for firewood now which leaves more play time for square chain.


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## BobL (Jul 3, 2010)

I persisted for about 6 months some 3 years ago using square ground in Aussie hard wood but while it cuts like a demon for about 8 - 10 sqft it goes blunt too quickly in our wood - they only time I use it now is when I run across something soft.


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## parrisw (Jul 3, 2010)

I wan't to learn Andy, but the price of files has held me back, I know call me cheap, cause well, I'am. I'm going to be placing a order with Baileys soon, so what files do you recommend.

Thanks

Will


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## 2dogs (Jul 4, 2010)

When I was learning to square file I hit myself in the nose with my filing hand so hard I just kinda gave up. Not completely but now I rarely file.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 4, 2010)

I found square filing difficult and gave up. A well filed round chain is much better than a poorly filed square chain, but I'd like to try a goofy file, as it eliminates one angle less than square.
John


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## Metals406 (Jul 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I found square filing difficult and gave up. A well filed round chain is much better than a poorly filed square chain, but I'd like to try a goofy file, as it eliminates one angle less than square.
> John



Not only are you the King of The Forest. . . You are King of The Round File.


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## redprospector (Jul 4, 2010)

lotawood said:


> I tried square chain a couple of years ago. I liked the faster speed. But I gave up because it was taking a long time to file. At the time,for me, the extra time needed to file it added up to way more time than the faster cutting speed gave.
> I do plan on giving another try. I had the flat square file set up in the oregon equivalent to the grandenberg guide. I set that up at the tip of the bar nose and set the angles for the teeth. I used a magic marker to mark the position of the guide. It actually worked pretty good, just took a long time. I am a year ahead for firewood now which leaves more play time for square chain.



It's a learning curve, a little longer curve than learning to round file but well worth the effort. After a lot of hours filing you will get to where you can touch up a square chisel about as fast as a round.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 4, 2010)

BobL said:


> I persisted for about 6 months some 3 years ago using square ground in Aussie hard wood but while it cuts like a demon for about 8 - 10 sqft it goes blunt too quickly in our wood - they only time I use it now is when I run across something soft.



I don't know anything about the wood down under, but I have cut quite a bit of dead Mesquite out of cat piles and it did ok. If your wood is much harder than that you aren't cutting wood, more like stones with a canopy. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 4, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I wan't to learn Andy, but the price of files has held me back, I know call me cheap, cause well, I'am. I'm going to be placing a order with Baileys soon, so what files do you recommend.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Will



I'm using the old Pferd double bevel's, I've heard good things about the Save edge files but have never tried them. For someone just starting out I recomend an 8" goofy file.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I found square filing difficult and gave up. A well filed round chain is much better than a poorly filed square chain, but I'd like to try a goofy file, as it eliminates one angle less than square.
> John



John,
I think you're right. I learned with a goofy file, and when you get everything down right with it then it's fairly easy to go to a double bevel. The goofy is much more forgiving and gives you a chance to get it right with about half the cussing. I think you aught to give it another shot with a goofy.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 4, 2010)

I posted these a while back in another thread, but maybe they'll help someone here to get the motion down. 
This is how I touch up a work chain on the saw.









Andy


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## MCW (Jul 4, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I don't know anything about the wood down under, but I have cut quite a bit of dead Mesquite out of cat piles and it did ok. If your wood is much harder than that you aren't cutting wood, more like stones with a canopy.
> 
> Andy



It's not only hardness but also abrasiveness. Square Chisel doesn't stand a chance, nor does round chisel for that matter. You spend more time sharpening than cutting, even with semi chisel some days


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## 046 (Jul 4, 2010)

hand filing square is not all that difficult once you figure out angles. 
especially if you've got a chain vise that allows all different positions. 

problem for me is hand filing process took too much time. so yes I've given up hand filing square. but have not given up using square chain. 

problem is finding an affordable square grinder ... aside from a few lucky finds. square grinders start at just under $1,000

bulk chains is the best way to go ... usually carry 20+ chains with me ... dull chains gets swapped out instead of hand filing


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## super3 (Jul 4, 2010)

I was getting semi decent at it but, have not cut since March. Soon as the leaves fall I'll get back at it. I didn't notice too much difference in time to touch up as opposed to round file unless the gullets needed attention. My biggest problem is I can't see for #### without cheaters on. "Now where in the hell did I lay them down." I'm sure I'll be a little rusty getting back to it.

Red, your tips are much appreciated, I sure know they have helped me a lot.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jul 4, 2010)

Is Oregon the only company that makes square chisel. I tried square filing. I Need Some hands on instruction. I can round file. Andy I am going to try again Thanks for the video. Is there any one in the the Kansas ,Missouri, Central US that has mastered the square file.


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## BobL (Jul 4, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I posted these a while back in another thread, but maybe they'll help someone here to get the motion down.
> This is how I touch up a work chain on the saw.



Looks good RP. Because of the high vertical angle involved, getting above the chain like you demonstrate does make it easier. I do mine with a bar clamped in my wood working vice while I am sitting on a high stool since this puts me above the chain.

Also more reproducible angles will be generated if each cutter is moved to the same (comfortable) position on the bar rather than the person sharpening moving their arm or body to each position up and down the bar.


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## 2000ssm6 (Jul 4, 2010)

I got a few dull squares that need attention, LOL. I got the files too and have been pondering how to use one with my FG-2. If only the ends were round like a standard round file.

I didn't see the hype with square when compared to the ease of round. That was with a few loops of Oregon and some RSLK. Looking at my race chains gives me more of headache if that matters.


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## flushcut (Jul 4, 2010)

Anybody use that square filing jig from Bailey's?
I have never tried square chiz but I am :monkey:


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 4, 2010)

redprospector said:


> John,
> I think you're right. I learned with a goofy file, and when you get everything down right with it then it's fairly easy to go to a double bevel. The goofy is much more forgiving and gives you a chance to get it right with about half the cussing. I think you aught to give it another shot with a goofy.
> 
> Andy



Andy, I could do one side not so bad but the other side I kept searching for the right angles and further botched up the cutters.
I found it hard to keep the corner in the corner, than gave up ground them square instead, so I got spoiled. I've since sold the sq. grinder, but would like to try the goofy.
It's my opinion that most can round file 5x faster than sq. Also with round filing you can progressively keep the gullets clean with the round file unlike a sq.file.
I can round file a 16" wood dull chain in under 2 minutes which gets me back to cutting much sooner than if I was trying to sq. file.
It would be interesting to compare the times of a perfectly filed round chain to perfectly filed sq. My guess would be that the sq. would be 10% faster.

John


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## parrisw (Jul 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> It would be interesting to compare the times of a perfectly filed round chain to perfectly filed sq. My guess would be that the sq. would be 10% faster.
> 
> John



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## flushcut (Jul 4, 2010)

parrisw said:


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I like it but spendy. Thanks for the video!


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## B_Turner (Jul 4, 2010)

No hand sq filing here, too lazy and too awkward to find a position for these old eyes to see well enough.

I cheat and use my ProSharp which is really quick and easy (3/8). Every now and then I use my 510 (which is setup with a 1/8 inch wheel these days as I am running alot of smaller chain) to clean out the gullets -- works fast and easy.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 4, 2010)

parrisw said:


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 Good vid parrisw.
It would be interesting to see all the variables that were used in the comparison, like how well the round chain was filed, raker height and if the same saw was used and whether the same operator did the cutting.
Sometimes testing can be skewed in favour of the results that are desired.

John


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## BobL (Jul 4, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I don't know anything about the wood down under, but I have cut quite a bit of dead Mesquite out of cat piles and it did ok. If your wood is much harder than that you aren't cutting wood, more like stones with a canopy.
> 
> Andy



Mesquite is 2300 lbs force Janka hardness when 12% MC which is the same as Osage orange. This is around the hardness of some the stuff I cut when its green. I posted an extensive list of Aussie tree hardensses back in mid June - here is a link.

In addition to sheer hardness a lot of our trees come under water stress and one of their coping mechanisms is to pull up silica which as MCW points out makes the wood very abrasive. In terms of square ground chain it rubs the tip off the point after cutting about 10 sq ft of cut. Most of what I do is milling and when milling an 8 ft x 4 ft slab the square chain out cuts round ground for the first 1/3rd of the slab, it then cuts slower and slower so sometimes by the time I get 2/3rds of the way through the cut I have had to back the mill out of the cut and re-sharpen - with the round ground I make it to the end of the cut without having to do this. For round ground I touch up after every tank full or 32 sqft which ever comes first. For square ground I've found it is less than half this.


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## parrisw (Jul 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Good vid parrisw.
> It would be interesting to see all the variables that were used in the comparison, like how well the round chain was filed, raker height and if the same saw was used and whether the same operator did the cutting.
> Sometimes testing can be skewed in favour of the results that are desired.
> 
> John



Yes, I agree, it looked like it was done pretty even though, the cutting that is.


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## gallegosmike (Jul 4, 2010)

*Who has tried, and given up?*

It is a case of wanting to. But doing my homework and finding out it would be a giant waste of time. Andy, is the pinon in your neck of pretty clean? The stuff I've got access to is pretty dirty stuff, lots of dirt and sand. It is almost as dirty / gritty as juniper. That stuff eats up stihl RS and RSC chains for dinner. I've given up on full chisel in favor of semi-chisel chain. 

I am writting this post sitting in a cabin in pagosa springs co, the area has tons of large ponderosa pines. Heck, there is a nice sized ponderosa pine (90ft x 26") next to the window. I can see that it is nice and clean compared to scrub trees that I cut for firewood. 

Mike


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## forestryworks (Jul 4, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> I am writting this post sitting in a cabin in pagosa springs co, the area has tons of large ponderosa pines. Heck, there is a nice sized ponderosa pine (90ft x 26") next to the window. I can see that it is nice and clean compared to scrub trees that I cut for firewood.
> 
> Mike



That's a nice area you're in Mike.


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## komatsuvarna (Jul 4, 2010)

Ive thought about trying it. All I cut is hard woods, and i was told that the square grind was more for soft woods and that I was wasting my time and money on it. Nobody around here even knows what square grind chain is, much less how to use/sharpen it. I use oregon jgx/lpx and I cant complain.

Id like to see a video of round chisel vs Square. HINT HINT


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## andrethegiant70 (Jul 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I found square filing difficult and gave up. A well filed round chain is much better than a poorly filed square chain, but I'd like to try a goofy file, as it eliminates one angle less than square.
> John



John, you kinda nailed it for me. Our conditions out here are pretty gritty also. But carry on, Red, it's a darned good subject.


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## AZLOGGER (Jul 4, 2010)

andrethegiant70 said:


> John, you kinda nailed it for me. Our conditions out here are pretty gritty also. But carry on, Red, it's a darned good subject.



Well andrethegiant this winter you will have a lot of that seasoned (pre-tested) firewood to cut (Shultz Fire). Keep the saws tuned up and the chains sharp!


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## mdavlee (Jul 4, 2010)

Here is the video I made back in the early spring comapring my hand filing to each other. Square chain first.

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## komatsuvarna (Jul 4, 2010)

Great videos mdavlee!!!!! Best i could tell it looked like 18 seconds for both chains. Is that a 390? It sure rips.


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## mdavlee (Jul 4, 2010)

No that was the 372 that I traded off to elim on here. It the 390 and a 7900 were all within a second of each other in that wood. That was the first freehand chain I did that equaled the round.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 4, 2010)

Good videos. It proves that sq. is potentially faster than round. It just depends on how good one is at filing or grinding.
In the vid it looked like the round was cutting more aggressively. Sq. is potentially faster because it tends to cut the fibre clean as opposed to tearing it, thus realizing more power out of the motor. That's what makes sq.faster if filed/ground correctly.
John


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## mdavlee (Jul 4, 2010)

Out of the box square vs what I filed round on the same kinds of chain I was beating the square with my round. Now they're even and hopefully the square will be faster.


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## gallegosmike (Jul 4, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> That's a nice area you're in Mike.



It is a nice place to get away from new mexico. We have a cabin on the lake in the area around piedra rd. Do you come up here much?

Mike


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## gallegosmike (Jul 4, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Here is the video I made back in the early spring comapring my hand filing to each other. Square chain first.



Where did you find semi-skip round chain? I can't find it anywhere!

Mike


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## forestryworks (Jul 4, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> It is a nice place to get away from new mexico. We have a cabin on the lake in the area around piedra rd. Do you come up here much?
> 
> Mike



It's been several years since I've been to that part of CO. I'd love to go back there soon.

Headed to the Enchanted Circle end of this month.


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## mdavlee (Jul 4, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> Where did you find semi-skip round chain? I can't find it anywhere!
> 
> Mike



I got it from madsens or baileys. Madsens has the buy one get one free. There is no one local to me that sells any square ground. The stihl dealer said they would order it and it was over $30 for a 24" chain.


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## parrisw (Jul 4, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I'm using the old Pferd double bevel's, I've heard good things about the Save edge files but have never tried them. For someone just starting out I recomend an 8" goofy file.
> 
> Andy



Andy is these the ones you mean?

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=638+1080&catID=

How do these work with the sides rounded a little?


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 5, 2010)

Speaking of chain, I smartened up my 359, cleaned the filtre and set the carb, wow, I'm sure it made the blow downs piss their roots! Hat off to saw mods!
John

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## outdoorlivin247 (Jul 5, 2010)

I have been playing w/ it myself just for the wonderful world of GTG's...

Everything I had around here was round chain so I played a little w/ the grinder, then the file...I have been using a double bevel file which I don't feel is hard to get the hang of, but don't have a good guide to go by...

I have an old granburg that will hold square files also, but feel freehand is easier...

I guess my biggest issue is the angles...I have read what angles are best and just don't understand why?......On round 30° is best but they say 22° on square?...Why so much difference?...


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Andy is these the ones you mean?
> 
> http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=638+1080&catID=
> 
> How do these work with the sides rounded a little?



Yep that's the one's. That's a good price Bailey's has on em too. 
The rounded edges make the goofy files a little more forgiving than the double bevel files. You still have to get the corner of the file in the corner of the cutter, but you don't have to worry about the angle of the cutting edge of the side plate. In my opinion a chain sharpened properly with a goofy isn't quite as fast as one filed properly with a double bevel but still faster & smoother than round. The big thing is that they are more forgiving for those just starting out. Most people get discouraged if they don't see results pretty quick, and you'll see results quicker with a goofy file.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> No hand sq filing here, too lazy and too awkward to find a position for these old eyes to see well enough.
> 
> I cheat and use my ProSharp which is really quick and easy (3/8). Every now and then I use my 510 (which is setup with a 1/8 inch wheel these days as I am running alot of smaller chain) to clean out the gullets -- works fast and easy.



An honest man, worthy of rep. 

Andy


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## wigglesworth (Jul 5, 2010)

Im fixing to try filing square myself. Only for playing around though, not for working. Anybody have an old granberg they want to get rid of?


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2010)

It's late, so I'm not going to try to address all the questions tonight. But I'll add this right now.
Unless I'm in a bind, I won't use off the roll square ground before it's been sharpened.
One mistake a lot of people make with sq. chain is to file the rakers down too far. .025 is about as low as I'll file them. Smoothness of the cut (not tearing wood), and keeping the chain speed up are two keys to the faster cutting.
I don't have any videos to compare square to round chain.........because I don't have any round. I'll look to see if I have any videos of work chain though.

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 5, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yep that's the one's. That's a good price Bailey's has on em too.
> The rounded edges make the goofy files a little more forgiving than the double bevel files. You still have to get the corner of the file in the corner of the cutter, but you don't have to worry about the angle of the cutting edge of the side plate. In my opinion a chain sharpened properly with a goofy isn't quite as fast as one filed properly with a double bevel but still faster & smoother than round. The big thing is that they are more forgiving for those just starting out. Most people get discouraged if they don't see results pretty quick, and you'll see results quicker with a goofy file.
> 
> Andy



Thanks Andy, I'll give it a shot. I was planning on just converting some round chain to square? Is that ok?


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## jack-the-ripper (Jul 5, 2010)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Is Oregon the only company that makes square chisel.



Stihl also makes square grind. I order mine from a saw shop in Washington listed on their website. No sales tax either. I hand file my chains as square grinder is too expensive for the weekend warrior.


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## 2000ssm6 (Jul 5, 2010)

jack-the-ripper said:


> Stihl also makes square grind.



Yup. The standard full comp is RSLK, half skip is RSLHK and full skip is RSLFK. My 3 local guys don't stock it and had to be ordered.


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## B_Turner (Jul 5, 2010)

redprospector said:


> An honest man, worthy of rep.
> 
> Andy



But I do admire your ability to hand file square, though. How you can reproduce the angles accurately by eye (without waste) is beyond me.


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## B_Turner (Jul 5, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup. The standard full comp is RSLK, half skip is RSLHK and full skip is RSLFK. My 3 local guys don't stock it and had to be ordered.



I know I am repeating myself, but I greatly prefer the stihl square because it holds an edge much longer than Oregon or Carlton. Extra important with square chain.


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## B_Turner (Jul 5, 2010)

redprospector said:


> It's late, so I'm not going to try to address all the questions tonight. But I'll add this right now.
> Unless I'm in a bind, I won't use off the roll square ground before it's been sharpened.
> One mistake a lot of people make with sq. chain is to file the rakers down too far. .025 is about as low as I'll file them. Smoothness of the cut (not tearing wood), and keeping the chain speed up are two keys to the faster cutting.
> I don't have any videos to compare square to round chain.........because I don't have any round. I'll look to see if I have any videos of work chain though.
> ...



I really agree with the too low a raker thing. Especially with freshly sharpened square. No lower than .025.

That way the chain just screams through the wood very efficiently severing and removing crips chips. 

It makes round ground seem anemic.......


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## 2000ssm6 (Jul 5, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> I know I am repeating myself, but I greatly prefer the stihl square because it holds an edge much longer than Oregon or Carlton. Extra important with square chain.



Same goes for round. I have more experience with Oregon than Carlton but neither can hold a edge like RSC imo. I hear others gripe about the high cost of Stihl chain, ya get what ya pay for.

So far I like this RSLK and will have to sit down and learn to sharpen. I really want a nice round grinder, would love to have a Silvey. I'm at the point where I got about 30 chains and all my buddies want me to do theirs. Hand sharpeing is killin' me.


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## wvlogger (Jul 5, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> IThat way the chain just screams through the wood very efficiently severing and removing crips chips.



what are they Ganster chips lol:spam:


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## parrisw (Jul 5, 2010)

Well I ordered up 5 of them goofy files. We'll see how it goes.


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## J.W Younger (Jul 5, 2010)

outdoorlivin247 said:


> I guess my biggest issue is the angles...I have read what angles are best and just don't understand why?......On round 30° is best but they say 22° on square?...Why so much difference?...


Off the reel cl is 45/45/15
this is a little bit blunt but prob a decent comprimise.
The angle I file at gives about a20deg top plate looking down from the top.


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## SWE#Kipp (Jul 5, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Good vid parrisw.
> It would be interesting to see all the variables that were used in the comparison, like how well the round chain was filed, raker height and if the same saw was used and whether the same operator did the cutting.
> Sometimes testing can be skewed in favour of the results that are desired.
> 
> John



It was the same saw for both chains, but i don't know/remeber if the roundfiled chain was out of the box or not, but i can't get my roundfiled chains to cut as smooth and fast as with the squarefile guide, making a faster roundfiled by taking down the depth guage is what i can manage but then the smooth cutting i long gone 

The video was made as fair as possible but none the less it was made to show that the guide makes for faster chains and not to show that roundfiled is faster and better


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Andy, I could do one side not so bad but the other side I kept searching for the right angles and further botched up the cutters.
> I found it hard to keep the corner in the corner, than gave up ground them square instead, so I got spoiled. I've since sold the sq. grinder, but would like to try the goofy.
> It's my opinion that most can round file 5x faster than sq. Also with round filing you can progressively keep the gullets clean with the round file unlike a sq.file.
> I can round file a 16" wood dull chain in under 2 minutes which gets me back to cutting much sooner than if I was trying to sq. file.
> ...



You're right, the gullets are a PITA when they need to be cleaned out.
It's taken me a little over 20 years of square filing to get there, but I can touch up a 28" wood dull square chain in 6 or 7 minutes. But that's when it just takes a couple of strokes to get her back in shape, and with a good sharp file. The duller the file gets the longer it takes. 
I would guess the square would give more than a 10% advantage, but I've never been able to produce a "perfectly filed" chain of either persuasion. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> It is a case of wanting to. But doing my homework and finding out it would be a giant waste of time. Andy, is the pinon in your neck of pretty clean? The stuff I've got access to is pretty dirty stuff, lots of dirt and sand. It is almost as dirty / gritty as juniper. That stuff eats up stihl RS and RSC chains for dinner. I've given up on full chisel in favor of semi-chisel chain.
> 
> I am writting this post sitting in a cabin in pagosa springs co, the area has tons of large ponderosa pines. Heck, there is a nice sized ponderosa pine (90ft x 26") next to the window. I can see that it is nice and clean compared to scrub trees that I cut for firewood.
> 
> Mike



Mike,
I'm too close to White Sands National Monument & Missile range to have much clean wood here. When the wind blows everything turns grey until it rains.
Square ain't for everybody, but once most learn to maintain it they never look back.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Thanks Andy, I'll give it a shot. I was planning on just converting some round chain to square? Is that ok?



It can be done, but just starting out I'd recomend starting with square.

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 5, 2010)

redprospector said:


> It can be done, but just starting out I'd recomend starting with square.
> 
> Andy



Ya I thought that, but I'm going to try anyway. I got lots of chain, and don't want to order more, nobody sells square around here, that I know of anyway.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 5, 2010)

redprospector said:


> You're right, the gullets are a PITA when they need to be cleaned out.
> It's taken me a little over 20 years of square filing to get there, but I can touch up a 28" wood dull square chain in 6 or 7 minutes. But that's when it just takes a couple of strokes to get her back in shape, and with a good sharp file. The duller the file gets the longer it takes.
> I would guess the square would give more than a 10% advantage, but I've never been able to produce a "perfectly filed" chain of either persuasion.
> 
> Andy



Andy, that's about as honest of a post as it gets with regards to filing. Had I discovered and been forced to sq. file back in 81, I may be a better sq. filer today. lol
John


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## gallegosmike (Jul 5, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Mike,
> I'm too close to White Sands National Monument & Missile range to have much clean wood here. When the wind blows everything turns grey until it rains.
> Square ain't for everybody, but once most learn to maintain it they never look back.
> 
> Andy



I see! I cut most of my firewood on land that is near poor grazing land. The soil is really coarse sand with a wee bit of soil. That area gets short rain falls with alot of wind! It causes the sand to stick to every thing. I really miss the pnw and the "clean" we had over there! LOL


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## B_Turner (Jul 5, 2010)

Although square doesn't last as long as round chisel, the difference is less than commonly cited IMO.

But once the tip dulls, you have to stop using it or you will pound the tip back and sharpening takes longer.

I always bring a bag of chains when I cut, with multiples of every bar length I pack. Not saying no one sharpens well in the field, but I've only met a couple folks that actually did really good job on site in the heat of the moment.

Typically just too much going on for them to take the time to do a really good job. With me I swap in a fresh chain.

I have been told by friends in the business that studies show on the average productivity is better with swapping in fresh chains rather than sharpening on the stop, and I believe it.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 6, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> Although square doesn't last as long as round chisel, the difference is less than commonly cited IMO.
> 
> But once the tip dulls, you have to stop using it or you will pound the tip back and sharpening takes longer.
> 
> ...



I've always found that two things are extremely sacreligious in the bush, one being hitting abrasive material and chain derailment. I rock out about every 10 cords and haven't had a chain throw in over 30 cords.
I can file under every circumstance whether it's a stump, 12" of moss or on my lap. That's only because I've done it for so long, however, one of my favourite spots is on the tailgate or on top of the freezer on the back porch. Lol
John


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## parrisw (Jul 6, 2010)

I believe I can file round pretty darn good. But I really like doing it with the saw in a vise, just feels much better that way. I'd love to have a vise mounted to my truck.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I believe I can file round pretty darn good. But I really like doing it with the saw in a vise, just feels much better that way. I'd love to have a vise mounted to my truck.



I agree, the beauty of the vise is that you can use both hands and do in one stroke what you can do in two strokes with one hand, plus I think you can be more accurate with two hands.
Gypo


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## parrisw (Jul 6, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I agree, the beauty of the vise is that you can use both hands and do in one stock what you can do in two strokes with one hand, plus I think you can be more accurate with two hands.
> Gypo



Yup exactly! I've been thinking of welding up a stand that plugs into my receiver on my truck, and that has a vise on it.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Yup exactly! I've been thinking of welding up a stand that plugs into my receiver on my truck, and that has a vise on it.



That would be a cool bumper hitch. Nobody would tailgate, especially if you had a big saw in there, but maybe they would tailgate, just to get a closer look! lol
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 6, 2010)

Speaking of hitch recievers, I think it was Cliff Helsel who has a hitch receiver and load binder that will accept a short log for test cutting. Great idea, just the right height.
John


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## BobL (Jul 6, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I agree, the beauty of the vise is that you can use both hands and do in one stroke what you can do in two strokes with one hand, plus I think you can be more accurate with two hands.
> Gypo



I agree two hands and a firm stand or vice helps. Sharpening with the saw on my mill with my anti-bar-sag device fitted is a good as vice.



> I always bring a bag of chains when I cut, with multiples of every bar length I pack. Not saying no one sharpens well in the field, but I've only met a couple folks that actually did really good job on site in the heat of the moment.


 I agree I do a better job of sharpening in the quite of the evening than I do on the job. But if I had to carry all the chains I would need for a weekends milling I would need to bring along about 20 chains for my 60" bars or about 500 ft of chain. I have 5 chains for my 60" bar and generally only take 1 on the saw and 1 or 2 spare with me. I can touch up chains for my 42" bar faster than I can swap out even though I can remove chains from my saw without removing the saw from the mill. I realize this is in unusual wood and circumstances and is not what the majority of CS users are doing.


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## Metals406 (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Yup exactly! I've been thinking of welding up a stand that plugs into my receiver on my truck, and that has a vise on it.



My brother and I have been CLing for vices for that very purpose. A hitch vice mount is the cats ass.

I have my vice now to make the hitch. . . Now I just have to weld it up.


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## parrisw (Jul 6, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> That would be a cool bumper hitch. Nobody would tailgate, especially if you had a big saw in there, but maybe they would tailgate, just to get a closer look! lol
> John



LOL, ya. people would be like WTF???


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## parrisw (Jul 6, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Speaking of hitch recievers, I think it was Cliff Helsel who has a hitch receiver and load binder that will accept a short log for test cutting. Great idea, just the right height.
> John



Great Idea!



Metals406 said:


> My brother and I have been CLing for vices for that very purpose. A hitch vice mount is the cats ass.
> 
> I have my vice now to make the hitch. . . Now I just have to weld it up.



Well what u waiting for LOL. When you do it post it up, I'd love to see it. Would have to come up with an idea that holds the stand from wobbling, since the hitch receivers never fit tight, if you had a stand on that was high, it would wobble around.


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## wsg (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Great Idea!
> 
> 
> 
> Well what u waiting for LOL. When you do it post it up, I'd love to see it. Would have to come up with an idea that holds the stand from wobbling, *since the hitch receivers never fit tight, if you had a stand on that was high, it would wobble around.*



Maybe silly idea but how about a scissor jack underneath to put pressure on it stabilizing it.. or and old trailer tongue jack if ya had that lying around. Id worry about weight but then again your talking about a vise to begin with.

Just an idea.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> LOL, ya. people would be like WTF???


 Ya, or who's this redneck? I think he spun a bearing! Lol


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## parrisw (Jul 6, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Ya, or who's this redneck? I think he spun a bearing! Lol



ha ha ha


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## MCW (Jul 6, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> I have been told by friends in the business that studies show on the average productivity is better with swapping in fresh chains rather than sharpening on the stop, and I believe it.



I agree with this 100% and the longer the bar length the more obvious it becomes.



parrisw said:


> Yup exactly! I've been thinking of welding up a stand that plugs into my receiver on my truck, and that has a vise on it.



I made one up for my ute (pickup) about 3 years ago. Haven't used it yet. Just plugs into where the tow hitch and ball goes and the pin goes in to lock it. Would work a treat if I used it but I get just as good of a job done on the rubber mat on the ute tray.


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## pgg (Jul 6, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> I have been told by friends in the business that studies show on the average productivity is better with swapping in fresh chains rather than sharpening on the stop, and I believe it.




That's not the case when on the saw for long hours though, because it takes about the same time to swap out a blunt chain for a fresh than it does to plonk down on a bank or log and quickly sharpen the blunt one. It only takes a couple of minutes to hand file an average chain. 

Thinning in the forests where you're covering a lot of ground, once a new chain has had a bit of use, I start to sharpen it pretty much every tank. That's about once every 35-40 minutes with a 60cc-70cc saw depending on tree size, the bigger 20"-24" trees you'll drop about 30 an hour, average thinning size is about from 12" - 18" where 50 an hour is normal, or early thinning of young small trees that are about 20 feet tall and easy meat and 100 an hour is childs play

A clued-up operator immediately stops and sharpens the chain the instant it starts to feel a bit dull, instead of carrying on blunt, and the instant you hit the dirt is the instant you should sharpen, secret is to spend all day with a 100% sharp chain 100% of the time, not only are you using a hell of a lot less effort and a lot less fuel, but in the long run the whole saw/engine/clutch/bearings/chain/ bar etc.. all live a lot longer. You'll find chain swapping over long periods of time just isn't practical for lots of reasons, and a 'chain swapper' is always going to find himself running a blunt chain sooner or later - usually sooner!


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## MCW (Jul 6, 2010)

pgg said:


> That's not the case when on the saw for long hours though, because it takes about the same time to swap out a blunt chain for a fresh than it does to plonk down on a bank or log and quickly sharpen the blunt one. It only takes a couple of minutes to hand file an average chain.
> 
> Thinning in the forests where you're covering a lot of ground, once a new chain has had a bit of use, I start to sharpen it pretty much every tank. That's about once every 35-40 minutes with a 60cc-70cc saw depending on tree size, the bigger 20"-24" trees you'll drop about 30 an hour, average thinning size is about from 12" - 18" where 50 an hour is normal, or early thinning of young small trees that are about 20 feet tall and easy meat and 100 an hour is childs play
> 
> A clued-up operator immediately stops and sharpens the chain the instant it starts to feel a bit dull, instead of carrying on blunt, and the instant you hit the dirt is the instant you should sharpen, secret is to spend all day with a 100% sharp chain 100% of the time, not only are you using a hell of a lot less effort and a lot less fuel, but in the long run the whole saw/engine/clutch/bearings/chain/ bar etc.. all live a lot longer. You'll find chain swapping over long periods of time just isn't practical for lots of reasons, and a 'chain swapper' is always going to find himself running a blunt chain sooner or later - usually sooner!



In clean wood I tend to agree depending on bar length. If you get into grubby ones with dirt in the bark etc where chain wear is more than normal then I tend to find swapping is faster. Although if you're in a forest wanting to carry as little as possible I'd file all the time instead of carrying a dozen chains. 

Where I had been dropping Casuarina windbreaks (clean trees by my standards but hard on chains if you lived in a rainforest) swapping chains was faster. What WASN'T faster was getting home stuffed and grinding for another hour  I was paid per hour in the field, not when I got home...


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## Metals406 (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Great Idea!
> 
> Well what u waiting for LOL. When you do it post it up, I'd love to see it. Would have to come up with an idea that holds the stand from wobbling, since the hitch receivers never fit tight, if you had a stand on that was high, it would wobble around.



Will,

There are a few options to get rid of the slop. 

1) You weld shim stock to the tubing to get rid of the slop.

2) Run stringer welds the length of the tubing and grind them down until you have a tight fit. . . Or mill them off if you have a mill.

3) You drill an extra hole in your receiver and weld a 3/4" (or 5/8" or 1/2") nut to the outside of the hole, and use a bolt made into a t-handle set screw. . . Tightens her right up.


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## mdavlee (Jul 6, 2010)

A small metal wedge or extra scrench jammed into the receiver will tighten it up pretty good.


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## parrisw (Jul 6, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Will,
> 
> There are a few options to get rid of the slop.
> 
> ...



I like #3!


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## Metals406 (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I like #3!



We use #3 at the shop for all our vices. The welding tables have receiver tubes welded underneath the table. . . And the vices all have tubing and mounting plates on them.

This allows us to set our vices in various places very quickly.


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## ronT2 (Jul 6, 2010)

2dogs said:


> When I was learning to square file I hit myself in the nose with my filing hand so hard I just kinda gave up. Not completely but now I rarely file.



 I can relate but I just kept at it.


After reading some of Andy’s posts over on the Chain Forum and watching the videos he also has posted here I decided to give square filing a try last winter. It’s been a fun and at times a frustrating learning curve but I find myself square filling more and more.

I’ve kind of settled in with a double bevel file for now. Right now my biggest problem is not getting the inside corners to intersect where I like. I can get the working corner pretty good but the inside corner intersects more toward the top plate. My guess is that I’m not getting as much of a downward angle with the file as I should.

I don’t think you’ll have much luck square filing with two hands on the file. I’ve found that I really have to steady the cutter with one hand in order to get the corner of the file in the working corner of the cutter with any consistency. You can see Andy doing it in his videos. YMMV though.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jul 6, 2010)

Has any one used the Atop from Bailys?


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## super3 (Jul 6, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I believe I can file round pretty darn good. But I really like doing it with the saw in a vise, just feels much better that way. I'd love to have a vise mounted to my truck.




I bolt this on when going to the woods. Makes touch ups sq. or round pretty fast.


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## redprospector (Jul 6, 2010)

B_Turner said:


> Although square doesn't last as long as round chisel, the difference is less than commonly cited IMO.
> 
> But once the tip dulls, you have to stop using it or you will pound the tip back and sharpening takes longer.
> 
> ...



Your friends may be right, I don't know for sure.
When I started out the mills were so tight I couldn't afford a bunch of chains. We called it "Po boy loggin'". 
I always carry at least one spare chain, but I only use it if I hit a rock or something that really screws up the cutters. There's been a lot of times that a chain never came off the saw until it was ready to be thrown away.
As I said earlier I can touch up one on a 28" bar (about all I run anymore) in about 6 or 7 minutes. I can probably change one out in 3 minutes, but then I'd probably stand there and scratch my ass for another 3 minutes. 

Andy


----------



## redprospector (Jul 6, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> I can relate but I just kept at it.
> 
> 
> After reading some of Andy’s posts over on the Chain Forum and watching the videos he also has posted here I decided to give square filing a try last winter. It’s been a fun and at times a frustrating learning curve but I find myself square filling more and more.
> ...



The best advice I can give you on hitting the inside corner is if your file is not marking the tie strap you're not at the right angle. A lot of people worry about the file hitting the tie strap, but it won't hurt a thing.
I agree about filing with two hands. When cleaning out the gullets I like to put it in a vice and use two hands when possible. But with a 7" double bevel file I've never had much luck using two hands.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 6, 2010)

If you happen to be one of those people who are concerned about nicking the tie straps with the bottom of the file............This may put your mind at ease.






It's not a work chain, but I did nick the tie straps with the file. 
This one has several runs on it in 12" to 18" wood on a not stock 3120.

If you're not hitting the tie straps you will have a hard time matching the inside corner.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm digging for video's of work chain. Here's the first one I came up with.
The rules were stock saw (right down to having the screen in the muffler), running a "work chain". The cutting edge was all that could be touched. The saw is a 372.





Andy


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## BobL (Jul 6, 2010)

redprospector said:


> There's been a lot of times that a chain never came off the saw until it was ready to be thrown away.



Wow - didn't need to dress the bar once in that time? - you must be cutting jello?


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## cat-face timber (Jul 6, 2010)

*Log Cutters*

Around here alot of the log cutters use either the square or the triangle files, the chains cut faster, but for me it would be hard to justify the cost of the files.


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## ronT2 (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks for the advice Andy, I’ll give it a try. 


I can’t even begin to guess how many hours go into a chain like this.


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## AUSSIE1 (Jul 6, 2010)

My hand round filed chisel wasn't any slower than the out of the box Husqvarna square chisel, so a hand filed square must certainly make a reasonable difference which I wouldn't have thought unless you were adding some "features".

I bought a file but haven't got around to giving it a go.


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## redprospector (Jul 7, 2010)

BobL said:


> Wow - didn't need to dress the bar once in that time? - you must be cutting jello?



Yeah, sometimes. If a bar needs dressing, it get's dressed. Maybe you're harder on bars than me.  I wouldn't especially call NM Douglas Fir jello, but some of the Ponderosa Pine is pretty soft. Being this close to the White Sands, and with the New Mexico winds chains don't last too long here. I thought you guy's had abrasive wood.
That's just another unadvertised benefit to running square chisel. Since the chain cuts smoother, and actually cuts ranther than tearing out the wood you get less wear on the bar, and the saw.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 7, 2010)

cat-face timber said:


> Around here alot of the log cutters use either the square or the triangle files, the chains cut faster, but for me it would be hard to justify the cost of the files.



Yep, it's definately not for everyone. If you're not making a living with a saw the only justification is braggin' rights.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 7, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> Thanks for the advice Andy, I’ll give it a try.
> 
> 
> I can’t even begin to guess how many hours go into a chain like this.



Hahaha. More hours than I really care to think about. I keep wanting to think I'm getting quicker, but usually between 30 and 40 hours go into one of those. If I decided to sell them I'd have to work too cheap.
I only posted that pic to show that hitting the tie strap with the file ain't gonna' hurt nothing. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 7, 2010)

This is a bone stock 7900 28" bar with work chain. These videos are all taken at between 8 & 9000' elevation. Somewhere I've got a video of a new 681 cutting this same log with the same bar & chain from when romeo & I did a comparison. But I haven't found it yet.





Sorry I don't have any of round chain.

Andy


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jul 8, 2010)

Bump


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## Rounder (Jul 8, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> I'm still filing square. . . And bought a square grinder that I have yet to setup.
> 
> I prefer square to round. . . A LOT!
> 
> I just don't like paying $10.00 a file for square.



Yeah, it's kind of a bummer when you loose a 3-corner on the hill! - Sam


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 9, 2010)

Anyone who fails at sq.filing can be rest assured that the square files make the best raker files bar none. They outlast a raker file at least 6X, so the files are not a lost investment no matter how you look at it.
Gypo


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## wvlogger (Jul 9, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Anyone who fails at sq.filing can be rest assured that the square files make the best raker files bar none. They outlast a raker file at least 6X, so the files are not a lost investment no matter how you look at it.
> Gypo



Espacally the goofy files


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## redprospector (Jul 9, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Anyone who fails at sq.filing can be rest assured that the square files make the best raker files bar none. They outlast a raker file at least 6X, so the files are not a lost investment no matter how you look at it.
> Gypo



Yep, and if you succeed at learning to square file you can use up the sharpening edges and then use them as raker files. Then when you use up the flat's on the rakers, I hear that you can send them to Save Edge and they can re-sharpen the files for a couple of bucks each. I haven't tried it yet, but I intend to.

Andy


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## wvlogger (Jul 9, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yep, and if you succeed at learning to square file you can use up the sharpening edges and then use them as raker files. Then when you use up the flat's on the rakers, I hear that you can send them to Save Edge and they can re-sharpen the files for a couple of bucks each. I haven't tried it yet, but I intend to.
> 
> Andy



keep us infromed on that one


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## mdavlee (Jul 9, 2010)

Save edge wants a run of 25 of so to resharpen them.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 9, 2010)

Andy, how many double bevel files would you go through converting, say, an 84DL round ground non skip chain to square ?


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## redprospector (Jul 9, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Andy, how many double bevel files would you go through converting, say, an 84DL round ground non skip chain to square ?



None.
You can convert a 84 DL round filed chain to square and still have several touch up's left in the file. 
I try to teach all the guy's who work with me how to file square if they want to learn. One common mistake they make is trying to make the file do too much work on each stroke. This shortens the life of the file quite a bit. Don't get in a hurry, use light strokes (just enough pressure to make the file cut good), and make every stroke you can count.


Andy


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## teatersroad (Jul 9, 2010)

I round file square ground semi-skip, 'cuz you can't get semi-skip stock round. Lot's of scrutiny and I see no profile difference in the Oregon Round or Square cutter - 72LP-vs-72CK. A ground round holds up better for the dirty work. Just an aside.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 10, 2010)

redprospector said:


> None.
> You can convert a 84 DL round filed chain to square and still have several touch up's left in the file.
> I try to teach all the guy's who work with me how to file square if they want to learn. One common mistake they make is trying to make the file do too much work on each stroke. This shortens the life of the file quite a bit. Don't get in a hurry, use light strokes (just enough pressure to make the file cut good), and make every stroke you can count.
> 
> ...



Thanks mate 

I have a few double bevels stashed away, I'll have to have a go at some chain one of these days.


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## redprospector (Jul 10, 2010)

Ok, don't say I never think of you guy's.
I was in Lowe's a few months ago and they had one of those Oregon bar mounted filing jig's on sale for $9. So I thought what the heck. I know some of the old filing jigs would take a double bevel (I've had a couple) and my mind got to churning. I've seen at least one of these type jigs on here that had been adapted to take a double bevel, but they had some pretty elaborate machine work involved. Knowing that most of us here are rednecks, and don't have machine shops set up in our tool shed's, I tried to think of a redneck way to adapt the filing jig to take a double bevel file. 

Here's what I came up with. I cut a couple of short pieces from a 3/8" galvanized water pipe. Then I filed a notch in one end of each piece to accept a piece of 1/4" bar stock and welded it in the notch in each piece of pipe. Then I took 2 more short pieces of 1/4" bar stock and filed a saddle into one end of each piece, and welded it in the center of the first 1/4" bar. 
Then I made a spacer to go inside one of these pieces to keep the tang end of the file centered and welded it in place.
The piece for the wide end of the file had to be tapped into an oval with a hammer to accept the file. Be careful doing this so that the file stays in the center. Now drill & tap each piece for a set screw to hold the file.
Ok, so now that I have all this together, it's too long to fit into the filing jig. So I replaced the bar stock in the guide with longer pieces. One is round (I think it was 1/4") the other is square (3/16" key stock fit pretty good).

This project had been shelved for a while, but I got inspired to finish it when I started this thread. I have it done and have filed a chain with it and it works pretty good. It's not as fast as free hand filing, but is consistant. The only thing I really don't care for is that the little steel stop that catches the back of the cutter isn't adjustable (yet), so the cutter length will varry after a few filings.

I'll get some pic's up in a day or so, and you guy's can see what you think. It's ugly, but makes for a cheap square filing jig. 
My biggest concern about posting this is that some will become dependant on the jig, and never learn to file by hand.

Andy


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 11, 2010)

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UTDBQ-N82o&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3UTDBQ-N82o&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

It really didnt seem too hard to do.
Once you get your head around how drastic the angles seem to be.

I have both save edge goofy and double bevels they were sheaper from Baileys than direct from save edge.
If you think $10 a file is bad try importing them into the UK!!!


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 11, 2010)

Looks like you got that saw dialed in real nice.
John


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## redprospector (Jul 11, 2010)

scotclayshooter said:


> It really didnt seem too hard to do.
> Once you get your head around how drastic the angles seem to be.
> 
> I have both save edge goofy and double bevels they were sheaper from Baileys than direct from save edge.
> If you think $10 a file is bad try importing them into the UK!!!



Lookin' good! 

Andy


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 11, 2010)

Cheers guys!
Cut down and blocked up a couple of big Sycamores a couple of Scots pine whatever that wood is in the vid, a big ish Poplar and a fairly large Leylandi and its still sharp enough to cut your fingers.

The saw was ported by myself with lots of advice from Timberwolf.

It was a hybrid chain for a few sharpenings, Maybe 4 i think.
Until i sharpened all of the top plate, I dont think you need to fully convert the chain over in one go.....

Frank Crofter mentioned in one of his threads that a round filed chain could be "Improved" with a few strokes of a Goofy so thats what i aimed for before having it fully converted.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 11, 2010)

Scot, I'm outside goofy filing. What side plate angle should I shoot for. I'm doing about 30 degrees. Is this ok?
John


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 12, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Scot, I'm outside goofy filing. What side plate angle should I shoot for. I'm doing about 30 degrees. Is this ok?
> John



LOL John no idea what so ever im just going for what looks right to me.

Cutting grass for 6 months so not much chance of using the saws to November!


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## redprospector (Jul 12, 2010)

Ok, here's a few pic's of the converted filing jig I rednecked together. I've still got a little to do (re-do) to get it really right, but it works ok.







This piece had to be hammered into an oval to accept the end of the file.





This piece has the spacer in it to hold the tang of the file in the center. I'm gonna have to re-do it because I'm a little off center.





This is the jig set up on a piece of bar for filing.


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## redprospector (Jul 12, 2010)

In the cutter.





Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> In the cutter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice work! Here is an idea for ya. I might try one of these myself since I got one of those file guides. Where you have the set screw, use a set screw on either side then you can just adjust to center, instead of trying to find a suitable spacer. I think I may turn up some nice pieces in my lathe instead of using a piece of pipe.


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## AUSSIE1 (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks for those photo's Andy.

Looks to be an easy enough mod to get those jigs working. I did have two at one stage but no idea if I still have them. I started filling by hand (with the clip on guide) some ten year ago. I'm a lefty but have gotten used to swapping hands with success.

So I pulled out the file I bought not too long ago and thought I would give it a crack. It's ugly but I can see light at the end of the tunnel, so I'll keep at it by hand. Bit hard to know what angles your working though.


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## redprospector (Jul 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Nice work! Here is an idea for ya. I might try one of these myself since I got one of those file guides. Where you have the set screw, use a set screw on either side then you can just adjust to center, instead of trying to find a suitable spacer. I think I may turn up some nice pieces in my lathe instead of using a piece of pipe.



That's a pretty good idea, may just have to try it. 
I know it's ugly as sin, but I was trying to make it out of stuff that about anybody has laying around, or could easily get. With a lathe you could make a really nice jig for square filing. I was just showing that it dosen't have to be pretty, or professionally built to work.

Andy


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## AUSSIE1 (Jul 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Nice work! Here is an idea for ya. I might try one of these myself since I got one of those file guides. Where you have the set screw, use a set screw on either side then you can just adjust to center, instead of trying to find a suitable spacer. I think I may turn up some nice pieces in my lathe instead of using a piece of pipe.



Good idea Will!


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## redprospector (Jul 12, 2010)

It's not a big deal to convert one. I'm just trying to get peoples creative juices flowing. I mean if you want to learn to square file but are having trouble figuring out all the angles, and being consistant. Well, where there's a will there's a way. Manufacturers charge a lot of money for square filing jig's, when you could invest $20 and 30 minutes of time and be on the road to learning to file. 

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> That's a pretty good idea, may just have to try it.
> I know it's ugly as sin, but I was trying to make it out of stuff that about anybody has laying around, or could easily get. With a lathe you could make a really nice jig for square filing. I was just showing that it dosen't have to be pretty, or professionally built to work.
> 
> Andy



Exactly. I wasn't hacking down your work at all. I think I'll go pick up some round stock and turn a couple out on the lathe, who knows maybe I'll make up a bunch if anybody is interested.



AUSSIE1 said:


> Good idea Will!



Thanks AL.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 12, 2010)

Nice bodge Andy.

I'll dig up the pics of that nicely machined conversion, a few people on this thread have lathes and mills too (Will ?)
I think they are still in the filing forum.


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## parrisw (Jul 12, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Nice bodge Andy.
> 
> I'll dig up the pics of that nicely machined conversion, a few people on this thread have lathes and mills too (Will ?)
> I think they are still in the filing forum.



Ya, I remember that thread quite a while ago?? Where is it, I'd like to look through it again.


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## redprospector (Jul 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Exactly. I wasn't hacking down your work at all. I think I'll go pick up some round stock and turn a couple out on the lathe, who knows maybe I'll make up a bunch if anybody is interested.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks AL.



Hahaha. Well, as bad as I hate to admit it this little jig could be hacked on pretty easy. 
I just don't want to detur anyone without a lathe from making something like it. I've herd people say things like; Well, if I had a machine shop in my garage I might try it. Or I'll have to find someone with a lathe to turn this for me, and then never do anything. There's nothing but redneck in this one.

I would like to see some pic's of yours when you get her spun up. 

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Well, as bad as I hate to admit it this little jig could be hacked on pretty easy.
> I just don't want to detur anyone without a lathe from making something like it. I've herd people say things like; Well, if I had a machine shop in my garage I might try it. Or I'll have to find someone with a lathe to turn this for me, and then never do anything. There's nothing but redneck in this one.
> 
> I would like to see some pic's of yours when you get her spun up.
> ...



ya, I'll surely post em up, I work full time, so my home projects sometimes go slow, but I don't think this will be too hard to do.


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## BobL (Jul 13, 2010)

Here's my adaptation of the square filing jig I made back in 2008.






More pics here. 

It works very well but I now rarely use sq ground chain.


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## parrisw (Jul 13, 2010)

BobL said:


> Here's my adaptation of the square filing jig I made back in 2008.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice work Bob, I'm going to try to make something like andy, that you don't have to rebuild the whole guide to make it work.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks Bob, you've found the thread Will and I were trying to find 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=69509


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## parrisw (Jul 13, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Thanks Bob, you've found the thread Will and I were trying to find
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=69509



Ya, that's great, I had a look. I couldn't find it. 

I went through that thread, and as good as that looks, I think we can do it simpler without reworking the whole guide, would be nice to make something that anybody and just stick in their guide and their off to the races. As nice as those alu uprights are, I don't think its necessary. I'll try and get on it this week.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 14, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ya, that's great, I had a look. I couldn't find it.
> 
> I went through that thread, and as good as that looks, I think we can do it simpler without reworking the whole guide, would be nice to make something that anybody and just stick in their guide and their off to the races. As nice as those alu uprights are, I don't think its necessary. I'll try and get on it this week.



Great pics parrisw, can the jig be tilted down for the required angle?

I gave up on the goofy filing and tried sq. again. I can't quite keep the corner in the corner and either end up with a serious side beak or create a top beak that erodes away the working corner, but man can you ever get a sharp, thin top plate.

It's almost impossible for me to sq. on the bar without a vise and even my Oregon chain vise doesn't allow me to tilt the file down low enough.

It makes me wonder sometimes why I'm wasting my time with this sq. filing when RF is so quick to do and pretty darn fast. I think it's only because it's a challenge and I don't want to be undone by a saw or it's chain. Lol
Gypo


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## mdavlee (Jul 14, 2010)

I know what you mean. I don't want to let a few little pieces of metal beat me.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 14, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I know what you mean. I don't want to let a few little pieces of metal beat me.


 Before I got out of bed this morning I was visualizing SQF and envisioned that I had to hold 4 different angles, then after my first coffee I could only see three angles, lol

Regardless, it's well nigh impossible to hold 3 angles exactly all the time while appling the required pressure on those angle. I think the trick is to not be too critical of our efforts while trying to do your best at the same time. At least 10% of the cutters are perfect. How long they stay sharp is a whole different matter.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm always trying to talk myself out of SQF in favour of RF, which isn't hard to do. 
If a perfect SQF is only 20% faster than a perfect RF and I can RF an almost perfect chain in 90 seconds and a much less perfect SQF in 15 minutes, what's the point? It's a false economy. I just like the look of a perfect SQF cutter, regardless of how slow and frustrating SQF is. 
GGRRRRRR.
John


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## mdavlee (Jul 14, 2010)

I know I might file some chains and make some more videos this afternoon. It's already 85 and going to 95 today with humidity up over 90% so I won't be doing much outside today.


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## wigglesworth (Jul 14, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I can RF an almost perfect chain in 90 seconds....
> John



Video or it didn't happen....

And by coincidence, I can totally fubar a chain in 90 seconds.


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## AUSSIE1 (Jul 14, 2010)

An almost perfect chain in 90 secs?

I agree with that. It would only take one pass with a new file.

Round filling can be very quick to do.

My round chisel is at least as fast as say the Husky square out of the box.

I may have missed it, but how much faster are we expecting out of a properly sharpened square over a Husky square out of the box?


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## BobL (Jul 14, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I can RF an almost perfect chain in 90 seconds



How many cutters?


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 14, 2010)

BobL said:


> How many cutters?


 30 to 32 cutters for a 16" bar and about 45 seconds for a 13" bar with skip chain that may have 15-16 cutters.
Like Wiggs said, it didn't happen if I don't make a vid of the 90 second tickle. Lol
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 14, 2010)

AUSSIE1 said:


> An almost perfect chain in 90 secs?
> 
> I agree with that. It would only take one pass with a new file.
> 
> ...



Usually a chain out of the box is not that good, as the moving parts haven't married together until a tank or two and at least a couple of 90 second tickles.
John


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## parrisw (Jul 14, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Great pics parrisw, can the jig be tilted down for the required angle?
> 
> o



Sorry John not my pics. It was BobL's. But I'm going to try to make something as soon as I get my files.


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## BobL (Jul 14, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> 30 to 32 cutters for a 16" bar and about 45 seconds for a 13" bar with skip chain that may have 15-16 cutters.
> Like Wiggs said, it didn't happen if I don't make a vid of the 90 second tickle. Lol
> John



I average 3.6 seconds per cutter so 32 cutters will take me ~120 seconds to touch up - I can go faster but I wont be as accurate.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5qE0iN_P-6E&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5qE0iN_P-6E&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## parrisw (Jul 14, 2010)

Ok, maybe this is a dumb question, but can you use any flat file that has cutters on the side of it? I'm thinking the file might not be thick enough?


----------



## BobL (Jul 14, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Great pics parrisw, can the jig be tilted down for the required angle?



Yes it can.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jul 15, 2010)

BobL said:


> I average 3.6 seconds per cutter so 32 cutters will take me ~120 seconds to touch up - I can go faster but I wont be as accurate.
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5qE0iN_P-6E&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5qE0iN_P-6E&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


 Good job Bob, you got your method down pat and fast to boot. I've never seen two people ever file the same.
John


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## Andyshine77 (Jul 15, 2010)

Bob that's exactly how I sharpen my chains.


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## redprospector (Jul 15, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ok, maybe this is a dumb question, but can you use any flat file that has cutters on the side of it? I'm thinking the file might not be thick enough?



No such thing as a dumb question if you don't know the answer.
The answer is no. The edges on a bastard mill file are 90* to the flat sides. To file a square chisel chain the file has to have the right angles on the edges. A goofy file has a rounded edge, but won't generally cut quite as fast as a chain filed with a double bevel file.

Andy


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 15, 2010)

Andy, in my feeble attempts to Sq. file, I was thinking a four sided file would be better than a 6. It might help keeping the corner in the corner.
John


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## redprospector (Jul 15, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I'm always trying to talk myself out of SQF in favour of RF, which isn't hard to do.
> If a perfect SQF is only 20% faster than a perfect RF and I can RF an almost perfect chain in 90 seconds and a much less perfect SQF in 15 minutes, what's the point? It's a false economy. I just like the look of a perfect SQF cutter, regardless of how slow and frustrating SQF is.
> GGRRRRRR.
> John



Hang in there John. Don't talk yourself out of it.
You know as well as anyone that it's just a matter of learning the motions and becoming efficient at making them. Before you know it your 15 minute filing jobs will become 10, and then 5. On a 16" bar I can see it being well under 5. How long did it take you to file a chain with a round file when you first started learning?
We cut a lot of pecker poles around here, and I've seen new fallers come in and after a week say that you can't make a living cutting trees. But for every one like that there were 10 guy's out there making a decent living doing it. The difference is how efficiently they did what was necessary. But efficiency comes with time.
I've got faith in ya John. I can't see you letting a little 60 DL square chisel chain whip your ass. 

Andy


----------



## redprospector (Jul 15, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Andy, in my feeble attempts to Sq. file, I was thinking a four sided file would be better than a 6. It might help keeping the corner in the corner.
> John



Without the bevel on the edge of the file your side plate would have about a 40 or 45* angle...........and in the wrong direction.

Andy


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jul 15, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Hang in there John. Don't talk yourself out of it.
> You know as well as anyone that it's just a matter of learning the motions and becoming efficient at making them. Before you know it your 15 minute filing jobs will become 10, and then 5. On a 16" bar I can see it being well under 5. How long did it take you to file a chain with a round file when you first started learning?
> We cut a lot of pecker poles around here, and I've seen new fallers come in and after a week say that you can't make a living cutting trees. But for every one like that there were 10 guy's out there making a decent living doing it. The difference is how efficiently they did what was necessary. But efficiency comes with time.
> I've got faith in ya John. I can't see you letting a little 60 DL square chisel chain whip your ass.
> ...



It's been so long since I learned how to file a decent chain, I don't really recall, but I learned alot here in the last ten years, mainly about chip clearance and gullet work.
My main problem is keeping the corner in the corner with sqf
I'm so jealous of my RF I couldn't bring myself to mount my heavily beaked SQF today, but I'll do it tomorrow. I've got the under the top plate so thin I bet it will make at least 4 pecker poles piss their roots before it's duller than a hoe. Lol
John


----------



## parrisw (Jul 15, 2010)

redprospector said:


> No such thing as a dumb question if you don't know the answer.
> The answer is no. The edges on a bastard mill file are 90* to the flat sides. To file a square chisel chain the file has to have the right angles on the edges. A goofy file has a rounded edge, but won't generally cut quite as fast as a chain filed with a double bevel file.
> 
> Andy



Ok, thanks Andy, makes sense now. I got some goofy files coming, should get here soon.


----------



## redprospector (Jul 15, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> It's been so long since I learned how to file a decent chain, I don't really recall, but I learned alot here in the last ten years, mainly about chip clearance and gullet work.
> My main problem is keeping the corner in the corner with sqf
> I'm so jealous of my RF I couldn't bring myself to mount my heavily beaked SQF today, but I'll do it tomorrow. I've got the under the top plate so thin I bet it will make at least 4 pecker poles piss their roots before it's duller than a hoe. Lol
> John



Just keep after it, you'll get the eye for keeping the corner.
Try rolling the file up to make the bevel under the top plate not so thin. It may help some with the corner.

Andy


----------



## redprospector (Jul 15, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ok, thanks Andy, makes sense now. I got some goofy files coming, should get here soon.



If you got 8" goofy files, they are quite a bit wider than the double bevel's and you may have to re-think the filing jig a little. But I bet you can do that. 

Andy


----------



## parrisw (Jul 15, 2010)

redprospector said:


> If you got 8" goofy files, they are quite a bit wider than the double bevel's and you may have to re-think the filing jig a little. But I bet you can do that.
> 
> Andy



Yes 8" goofy files coming. I'll see what I can do, but I want to learn to file square by hand anyway, the file holder will just be a fun project.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jul 15, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Yes 8" goofy files coming. I'll see what I can do, but I want to learn to file square by hand anyway, the file holder will just be a fun project.



It wasn't my intention to dice the goofy filing, it's just I couldn't make it as fast as RF, but I understand that saw racers especially in the southern states have this down pat. I'd like to talk to them and see their chains. Red has helped alot in this regard, so I'll keep trying.
John


----------



## redprospector (Jul 15, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> It wasn't my intention to dice the goofy filing, it's just I couldn't make it as fast as RF, but I understand that saw racers especially in the southern states have this down pat. I'd like to talk to them and see their chains. Red has helped alot in this regard, so I'll keep trying.
> John



John,
I know I'm not in the part of the south that you're thinking of, but most of the chain's I've seen from the south east look pretty similar to this one. They may have switched to goofy filing race chains, but I've found a double bevel to be faster.







Andy


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jul 16, 2010)

Red, don't laugh at me, buts here's how far Ive come with goofy filing.
John


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## redprospector (Jul 16, 2010)

Haha. You may have come a little too far. 

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

Andy, got the files yesterday. But they will be too long to use in the Oregon jig, so I will need shorter ones to make something up that will work for square filing in the jig.

But here is my first attempt at square by hand, I think I did ok? What do you think.

I started with my 20" on my 357, since its the smallest bar I got. These files are definetly very nice, and give a killer edge, very sharp edge, much sharper then I can get with the round files I have. They are the 8" goofy file.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

Looking good Will! I think you'll like the way the chain eats the wood!


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Looking good Will! I think you'll like the way the chain eats the wood!



Thanks!! I don't think its that hard to learn it. But will take some time to get very good at it, and become faster. I think I maybe spent about 30mins on this chain, not including rakers, and that was also going from round filed to square.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Thanks!! I don't think its that hard to learn it. But will take some time to get very good at it, and become faster. I think I maybe spent about 30mins on this chain, not including rakers, and that was also going from round filed to square.



Whoa there cowboy. . . You ain't filing squared. . . You iz running goofy. Add two more angles to that there file, and you won't be whistling the "pretty easy" tune. 

6 sided changes the game brother. . . Did you just order goofy or 6 sided as well?


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Whoa there cowboy. . . You ain't filing squared. . . You iz running goofy. Add two more angles to that there file, and you won't be whistling the "pretty easy" tune.
> 
> 6 sided changes the game brother. . . Did you just order goofy or 6 sided as well?



Sorry ya, goofy filing. on a 6 sided, how many sides actually touch the chain? I thought only 2 right? So what's the deal with 6 sides? Or also hear double bevel?


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 17, 2010)

can you fellers post some pics of these files? I thought goofy was flat top round side for the gullet? Will's looks like sguare gullet? I dunno maybe I dunno what i'm lookin at. What is this six sided business? I thought real square filing was with a square (rectangular) file. I feel dumb, help me out with some pitchers will ya eh?


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> can you fellers post some pics of these files? I thought goofy was flat top round side for the gullet? Will's looks like sguare gullet? I dunno maybe I dunno what i'm lookin at. What is this six sided business? I thought real square filing was with a square (rectangular) file. I feel dumb, help me out with some pitchers will ya eh?



This is the file I used.

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=638+1080&catID=


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 17, 2010)

ok, goofy has slight curve to the side, not a radius that matches a round file like I pictured. cool beans. 

Now, six sided? huh?


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Sorry ya, goofy filing. on a 6 sided, how many sides actually touch the chain? I thought only 2 right? So what's the deal with 6 sides? Or also hear double bevel?



Two sides and a point of the third side touch on a 6 sided -- and a goofy touches on 2 sides. . . The big difference is the goofy's radius is a heck of a lot more forgiving with technique.

Think about hard angles, and how little changes make the angles change on ya. Now with a goofy file, you can be somewhat lacking holding the side angles, and it won't show up cause of the radius. The goofy's radius is also a lot more forgiving with a gullet that isn't cleaned out good, cause you don't have a point trying to dig in on ya.

You need a 6 sided to try now that you've tried goofy. . . You'll see what I mean.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> ok, goofy has slight curve to the side, not a radius that matches a round file like I pictured. cool beans.
> 
> Now, six sided? huh?



Here's some pics of the files and the end profiles. . . It'll maybe help you visualize it?

*6 sided*


















*Goofy*


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## mdavlee (Jul 17, 2010)

I was looking at some of my files last night and one of the new viiala I think is how you spell it and the double bevels aren't symmetrical to each side. One is short and one is longer. I think it will just be a raker file. I guess I'll have to order some more sooner than I thought. I have some triangular files also but are harder for me to use for some reason.


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## SWE#Kipp (Jul 17, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I was looking at some of my files last night and one of the new viiala I think is how you spell it and the double bevels aren't symmetrical to each side. One is short and one is longer. I think it will just be a raker file. I guess I'll have to order some more sooner than I thought. I have some triangular files also but are harder for me to use for some reason.



Do you got a link to the files ??


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Two sides and a point of the third side touch on a 6 sided -- and a goofy touches on 2 sides. . . The big difference is the goofy's radius is a heck of a lot more forgiving with technique.
> 
> Think about hard angles, and how little changes make the angles change on ya. Now with a goofy file, you can be somewhat lacking holding the side angles, and it won't show up cause of the radius. The goofy's radius is also a lot more forgiving with a gullet that isn't cleaned out good, cause you don't have a point trying to dig in on ya.
> 
> You need a 6 sided to try now that you've tried goofy. . . You'll see what I mean.



Thanks. Next Baileys order I'll get a few to try out.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jul 17, 2010)

Parish how are you guys geting such clesr pictures? I've been trying a six sided file like pictued in this thread. but my pictures are not this clear.


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## ronT2 (Jul 17, 2010)

The top picture looks more like a double bevel.



Metals406 said:


> *6 sided*



I was under the impression that this was a 6-sided/3-corner/triangle/hexagon file.

Will, I would definitely try a double bevel next, if you can sharpen a drill bit odds are it will work for you.


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## JT78 (Jul 17, 2010)

I have been square filing some of my shorter chains doing pretty good at it now but I am slow! I can file a round chain much faster so am sticking to round on the long chains.


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## mdavlee (Jul 17, 2010)

SWE#Kipp said:


> Do you got a link to the files ??



It is the one in madsens catalog. They seem to last longer than the save edge and pferd that baileys carries. They are shaped just like the picture paris posted but are off a little on the bevel. It's the last file I had that was brand new. The vallorbe for the atop guide is alsting good but only has 1 bevel on each side so it can't be flipped over to have 4 corners to use.


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Andy, got the files yesterday. But they will be too long to use in the Oregon jig, so I will need shorter ones to make something up that will work for square filing in the jig.
> 
> But here is my first attempt at square by hand, I think I did ok? What do you think.
> 
> I started with my 20" on my 357, since its the smallest bar I got. These files are definetly very nice, and give a killer edge, very sharp edge, much sharper then I can get with the round files I have. They are the 8" goofy file.



Parrisw, It's looking pretty good. But you need to raise your hand up to make the file go in at a steeper angle. You are also low in the cutter with the file. 
Notice the beak you have on the top plate. It will cut like mad...........for a few cuts, but will dull very quickly because there's nothing to support the edge. Get the corner of the file (where the flat meets the edge) to meet in the corner of the cutter.
Here's a cutter I filed the other day for John's thread. See how the corner of the file made a line going into the corner of the cutter? That's what you're looking for.






Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Andy, got the files yesterday. But they will be too long to use in the Oregon jig, so I will need shorter ones to make something up that will work for square filing in the jig.



Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on this. 
Even with a 7" double bevel you'll have to replace the guide bars in the Oregon guide. I think you could extend it to hold a 12" bastard mill if you wanted to.
I don't mean to repeat myself, but this was my attempt at a description before I took any pictures.

Ok, don't say I never think of you guy's.
I was in Lowe's a few months ago and they had one of those Oregon bar mounted filing jig's on sale for $9. So I thought what the heck. I know some of the old filing jigs would take a double bevel (I've had a couple) and my mind got to churning. I've seen at least one of these type jigs on here that had been adapted to take a double bevel, but they had some pretty elaborate machine work involved. Knowing that most of us here are rednecks, and don't have machine shops set up in our tool shed's, I tried to think of a redneck way to adapt the filing jig to take a double bevel file. 

Here's what I came up with. I cut a couple of short pieces from a 3/8" galvanized water pipe. Then I filed a notch in one end of each piece to accept a piece of 1/4" bar stock and welded it in the notch in each piece of pipe. Then I took 2 more short pieces of 1/4" bar stock and filed a saddle into one end of each piece, and welded it in the center of the first 1/4" bar. 
Then I made a spacer to go inside one of these pieces to keep the tang end of the file centered and welded it in place.
The piece for the wide end of the file had to be tapped into an oval with a hammer to accept the file. Be careful doing this so that the file stays in the center. Now drill & tap each piece for a set screw to hold the file.
Ok, so now that I have all this together, it's too long to fit into the filing jig. So I replaced the bar stock in the guide with longer pieces. One is round (I think it was 1/4") the other is square (3/16" key stock fit pretty good).

This project had been shelved for a while, but I got inspired to finish it when I started this thread. I have it done and have filed a chain with it and it works pretty good. It's not as fast as free hand filing, but is consistant. The only thing I really don't care for is that the little steel stop that catches the back of the cutter isn't adjustable (yet), so the cutter length will varry after a few filings.

I'll get some pic's up in a day or so, and you guy's can see what you think. It's ugly, but makes for a cheap square filing jig. 
My biggest concern about posting this is that some will become dependant on the jig, and never learn to file by hand.

I don't know if that helps any or not.......Probably not. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Whoa there cowboy. . . You ain't filing squared. . . You iz running goofy. Add two more angles to that there file, and you won't be whistling the "pretty easy" tune.
> 
> 6 sided changes the game brother. . . Did you just order goofy or 6 sided as well?



Metals, I'm glad you're chiming in. I can use all the help I can get, because I'm not a real good "online teacher".
All threads eventually take a deture, and we're now talking about goofy filing. But at least we're still talking about filing. 
I think once most people get good with a goofy file, the transition to square filing isn't near as difficult.

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

So is there a consensus that the Save Edge aren't lasting as long as Pferd of Vallorbe?

I'm running Pferd right now, but they're also $10 a whack.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Metals, I'm glad you're chiming in. I can use all the help I can get, because I'm not a real good "online teacher".
> All threads eventually take a deture, and we're now talking about goofy filing. But at least we're still talking about filing.
> I think once most people get good with a goofy file, the transition to square filing isn't near as difficult.
> 
> Andy



I agree Andy. . . Goofy is a good segue into square. Fact is, some may choose to stay with goofy. . . It is better than round.

So far so good on keeping this thread on track -- only time will tell though.


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## Burvol (Jul 17, 2010)

Andy, I give you respect bud. I cannot square file. I grind. I love the fat side cutter for chip clearance and aggressive bite as well. Kudos for teaching these guys how to square file, it cuts like a muther. I have taken up porting and rebuilding saws vs. learning to square file in my down time.


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> So is there a consensus that the Save Edge aren't lasting as long as Pferd of Vallorbe?
> 
> I'm running Pferd right now, but they're also $10 a whack.



I don't know. 
Several years ago a buddy that has a logging/firewood business decided he was going to go square, and teach all his hands to file, so he ordered a gross of Pferd double bevel's. Problem was, he didn't know how to file. 
So I bought the files from him at a slight discount. 
I guess I'll find out soon though........I'm down to my last dozen. 

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I don't know.
> Several years ago a buddy that has a logging/firewood business decided he was going to go square, and teach all his hands to file, so he ordered a gross of Pferd double bevel's. Problem was, he didn't know how to file.
> So I bought the files from him at a slight discount.
> I guess I'll find out soon though........I'm down to my last dozen.
> ...



You lucky dog! I'd love to find me a pile of them at an auction or going out of biz sale.

I need to get my dang grinder setup so I can start grinding too. . . And reserve the filing for touch-up.


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Andy, I give you respect bud. I cannot square file. I grind. I love the fat side cutter for chip clearance and aggressive bite as well. Kudos for teaching these guys how to square file, it cuts like a muther. I have taken up porting and rebuilding saws vs. learning to square file in my down time.



Hey, if you've got a grinder learning to file is kinda irrelevant. I figure learning to file square is an inexpensive way to get into the world of "real" cutting. 

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Andy, I give you respect bud. I cannot square file. I grind. I love the fat side cutter for chip clearance and aggressive bite as well. Kudos for teaching these guys how to square file, it cuts like a muther. I have taken up porting and rebuilding saws vs. learning to square file in my down time.



Hey Burv. . . Watch porting and building -- it's addictive too! LOL

Soon you'll have saws' piled all over waiting fixies.


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## ronT2 (Jul 17, 2010)

Here’s a picture of a round filed chain that I’m converting to square using a double bevel file. You can see how the right side of the top plate hasn’t caught up with the rest of the cutter yet. Hope I’m on the right track.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> Here’s a picture of a round filed chain that I’m converting to square using a double bevel file. You can see how the right side of the top plate hasn’t caught up with the rest of the cutter yet. Hope I’m on the right track.



Steepen your angle a tweed, and you'll get more longevity out'a that top-plate.


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## ronT2 (Jul 17, 2010)

Thanks, it looks like that will help with the inside corner. Andy said I should be hitting more of the tie strap which might also help.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> Thanks, it looks like that will help with the inside corner. Andy said I should be hitting more of the tie strap which might also help.



Yup. . . You find the sweet spot, and aim for the tie straps like aiming a rifle. If you aren't digging into the strap, your angles are shallow. . . Okay for a race type chain, but won't last as long for work.


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> Thanks, it looks like that will help with the inside corner. Andy said I should be hitting more of the tie strap which might also help.



Yep, steepen her up a little & you'll be good. The working corner looks right on. Rub that tie strap & I think you'll be good as gold. 

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

What helps me, is to always concentrate on geometry. . . I have a very mathematical mind.

I always try and focus on the fact that I'm trying to, essentially, divide or "cut" the top-plate off. Kinda pretending the file is a hack saw or the like.


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## redprospector (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> What helps me, is to always concentrate on geometry. . . I have a very mathematical mind.
> 
> I always try and focus on the fact that I'm trying to, essentially, divide or "cut" the top-plate off. Kinda pretending the file is a hack saw or the like.



Hahaha. Maybe that's my problem with trying to teach. When I file, my mind just kinda goes blank. So it's kinda hard to describe what I'm doing.
You made a good post reguardless of my smart :censored:. 45 is the magic number. If all angles are held at 45 degree, and your corners are matching, the chain will cut & be durrable.

Andy


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## tdi-rick (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> What helps me, is to always concentrate on geometry. . . I have a very mathematical mind.
> 
> I always try and focus on the fact that I'm trying to, essentially, divide or "cut" the top-plate off. Kinda pretending the file is a hack saw or the like.





redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Maybe that's my problem with trying to teach. When I file, my mind just kinda goes blank. So it's kinda hard to describe what I'm doing.
> You made a good post reguardless of my smart :censored:. 45 is the magic number. If all angles are held at 45 degree, and your corners are matching, the chain will cut & be durrable.
> 
> Andy



Both excellent posts, helps a lot


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Parish how are you guys geting such clesr pictures? I've been trying a six sided file like pictued in this thread. but my pictures are not this clear.



You need a camera that has Macro setting, that allows it to focus really close.



redprospector said:


> Parrisw, It's looking pretty good. But you need to raise your hand up to make the file go in at a steeper angle. You are also low in the cutter with the file.
> Notice the beak you have on the top plate. It will cut like mad...........for a few cuts, but will dull very quickly because there's nothing to support the edge. Get the corner of the file (where the flat meets the edge) to meet in the corner of the cutter.
> Here's a cutter I filed the other day for John's thread. See how the corner of the file made a line going into the corner of the cutter? That's what you're looking for.
> 
> ...




Andy thanks! It actually looks better by eye then in that pic, I am digging into the tie strap when doing this. I'm trying real hard to get the inside and outside cutters to line up. Here is a quick vid I did today with a stock 357 and my first goofy filed chain, it does pull a good chip, now this is with very dry Doug Fir which is pretty hard stuff.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/00t7wce7RIU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/00t7wce7RIU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> You need a camera that has Macro setting, that allows it to focus really close.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's most definitely Doug Fir. . . With that dang stinking power you get while cutting!

Dead, hard Larch ain't much better. :rant:

So, overall, what do you think of goofy? Feel better than your round?


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## parrisw (Jul 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> That's most definitely Doug Fir. . . With that dang stinking power you get while cutting!
> 
> Dead, hard Larch ain't much better. :rant:
> 
> So, overall, what do you think of goofy? Feel better than your round?



Ya, doug fir bark is really dusty!!!!! full of chit!! 

Ya the saw does feel good with it, I think my chain could be better! I felt that I could maybe lean on the saw a little more then with round, but I have hardly any run time with the 357, so the jury is still out I think. But I think I need more practice with the filing. The cutter is definitely sharper, so that's a good thing.


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## Metals406 (Jul 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ya, doug fir bark is really dusty!!!!! full of chit!!
> 
> Ya the saw does feel good with it, I think my chain could be better! I felt that I could maybe lean on the saw a little more then with round, but I have hardly any run time with the 357, so the jury is still out I think. But I think I need more practice with the filing. The cutter is definitely sharper, so that's a good thing.



Sharper is gooder-er!!


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 18, 2010)

doug fir is hard?!! 

hah!! you lefty coast boys crack me up.


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## Burvol (Jul 18, 2010)

You obviously are into stereotypes lol. There are about 47 varying types of Douglass fir, living and dead from sweet cream on the coast to the iron wood immitations on the east slopes of the Cascades. I've barred into DF so hard I swore I just broke a sproket.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks parrisw I will have to ask my teenager if my camera has this.

Metals this is a good explanation.



Metals406 said:


> What helps me, is to always concentrate on geometry. . . I have a very mathematical mind.
> 
> I always try and focus on the fact that I'm trying to, essentially, divide or "cut" the top-plate off. Kinda pretending the file is a hack saw or the like.



Red I want to thank you for starting this thread. I think I'm getting the hang of It (SF). I took a sthil RSC to convert. It cuts preaty good. I cut with new RSC then put on the converted chain. No timed cuts but defInatly faster.

Thanks to all the imput fromevry one on this thread.


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> doug fir is hard?!!
> 
> hah!! you lefty coast boys crack me up.



Now I did not say it was harder then Hard wood, but as far as softwood goes its pretty hard, especially when its been sitting down for 2 years. Have you ever cut Doug Fir? Lets say this, people use it for flooring around here, its hard enough. And the bark is killer on chains, holds allot of crap.


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Thanks parrisw I will have to ask my teenager if my camera has this.




Ya no problem, any questions just ask. What model of camera do you have? The mode you want will have a flower on it.


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

Burvol said:


> You obviously are into stereotypes lol. There are about 47 varying types of Douglass fir, living and dead from sweet cream on the coast to the iron wood immitations on the east slopes of the Cascades. I've barred into DF so hard I swore I just broke a sproket.



Thanks!


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## Metals406 (Jul 18, 2010)

Burvol said:


> You obviously are into stereotypes lol. There are about 47 varying types of Douglass fir, living and dead from sweet cream on the coast to the iron wood immitations on the east slopes of the Cascades. I've barred into DF so hard I swore I just broke a sproket.



Yup. . . It can get hard! Especially if the tree was cut green, and left just off the ground to "cure". Then you have the DF that has tiny growth rings -- and the butt log is always more dense anyway.

DF has been used for flooring, trim, doors, etc up here for well over 100 years.


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 18, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Now I did not say it was harder then Hard wood, but as far as softwood goes its pretty hard, especially when its been sitting down for 2 years. Have you ever cut Doug Fir? Lets say this, people use it for flooring around here, its hard enough. And the bark is killer on chains, holds allot of crap.



Nope, never cut doug fir you caught me! I was just being a dink anyways. I actually very very rarely get to cut anything that is not deciduous. Most of what I cut is dead and dry hardwood. Oak, Elm, Maple. So to me cutting any evergreen usually seems very soft. Poplar is what I call soft easy cutting wood, but then I've seen guys use if for cutting tests here saying its hard so who the heck knows. Its all subjective anyways.


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> Nope, never cut doug fir you caught me! I was just being a dink anyways. I actually very very rarely get to cut anything that is not deciduous. Most of what I cut is dead and dry hardwood. Oak, Elm, Maple. So to me cutting any evergreen usually seems very soft. Poplar is what I call soft easy cutting wood, but then I've seen guys use if for cutting tests here saying its hard so who the heck knows. Its all subjective anyways.



Poplar is very very soft, I find that it cuts like butter compared to Doug Fir. I find even that the maple around here cuts easier then Doug Fir, not sure what species of Maple though.


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 18, 2010)

yeah, maple can mean just about anything in terms of hardness. It seems to run the full spectrum in different species/types. The stuff we have is called locally leaning maple. Its not super hard but definately much harder than any conifers we have. All I know is I'm glad I don't have that Oz wood here! I'd give up on saws if I had to deal with that crap


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## Metals406 (Jul 18, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> yeah, maple can mean just about anything in terms of hardness. It seems to run the full spectrum in different species/types. The stuff we have is called locally leaning maple. Its not super hard but definitely much harder than any conifers we have. All I know is I'm glad I don't have that Oz wood here! I'd give up on saws if I had to deal with that crap



:agree2:

Their wood is HARRRRRRDDD!


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> yeah, maple can mean just about anything in terms of hardness. It seems to run the full spectrum in different species/types. The stuff we have is called locally leaning maple. Its not super hard but definately much harder than any conifers we have. All I know is I'm glad I don't have that Oz wood here! I'd give up on saws if I had to deal with that crap



Ya your not kidding about the Aussies. 

I love cutting Doug Fir its my Fav, but its the dusty dirty bark that sucks. Slinger has a good vid and when he lays into a Doug Fir the dust storm is crazy.


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## Metals406 (Jul 18, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ya your not kidding about the Aussies.
> 
> I love cutting Doug Fir its my Fav, but its the dusty dirty bark that sucks. Slinger has a good vid and when he lays into a Doug Fir the dust storm is crazy.



<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3dSbThaL30&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3dSbThaL30&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3dSbThaL30&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3dSbThaL30&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



This is the one I was thinking of.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ioUh2r0OUkk&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ioUh2r0OUkk&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## Zombiechopper (Jul 18, 2010)

well I guess I have learned that not all conifers are the same! I shouldn't have generalized! 

Wife wants to plant some kind of pine/spruce evergreen tree in the front. I've been against it because evergreen trees just seem to be wussy here on the brutal prairies. They dry out and die. Turn brown and blow over. too soft. girly trees. Maybe a Doug Fir would do well. Seems like a manly tree. Can it take 
-40C?


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## Metals406 (Jul 18, 2010)

I remembered both. . . And took a 50/50 stab at picking the one you were thinking of. 

Both them video's illustrate how dusty dead DF is. I've cut Larch that's about as bad too.


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## Metals406 (Jul 18, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> well I guess I have learned that not all conifers are the same! I shouldn't have generalized!
> 
> Wife wants to plant some kind of pine/spruce evergreen tree in the front. I've been against it because evergreen trees just seem to be wussy here on the brutal prairies. They dry out and die. Turn brown and blow over. too soft. girly trees. Maybe a Doug Fir would do well. Seems like a manly tree. Can it take
> -40C?



Yeah. . . DF can take hot, cold, water, no water, wind, no wind, hail, etc. A forester up here I was cruising with characterized DF as "a weed". I tend to agree. . . They're very hardy.

I like the looks of Ponderosa or Larch myself, they're straighter than the average DF. Doug fir in these parts can be pistol butted, twisted looking trees. . . More so than the PP or WL.

BTW, Doug Fir isn't even a true fir. . . It is an evergreen.


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## parrisw (Jul 18, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> well I guess I have learned that not all conifers are the same! I shouldn't have generalized!
> 
> Wife wants to plant some kind of pine/spruce evergreen tree in the front. I've been against it because evergreen trees just seem to be wussy here on the brutal prairies. They dry out and die. Turn brown and blow over. too soft. girly trees. Maybe a Doug Fir would do well. Seems like a manly tree. Can it take
> -40C?



Yup doug fir probably would do well. 

Out here on the West coast they get hit by so much wind, and that makes them grow stronger with tighter grain, that's how they get so hard.



Metals406 said:


> I remembered both. . . And took a 50/50 stab at picking the one you were thinking of.
> 
> Both them video's illustrate how dusty dead DF is. I've cut Larch that's about as bad too.



Yup I cut up a 40" dead Doug Fir at my inlaws and in places the bark was about 10" thick man it was crazy!


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 18, 2010)

Here's a picture of a cutter I touched up tonight. The file I was using wasn't the same on the bevels either. I had to really touch up the other side to make the cutters close to the same.


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## mdavlee (Jul 18, 2010)

Here's pictures of the file from madsens. 











This is the vallorbe file.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a picture of a cutter I touched up tonight. The file I was using wasn't the same on the bevels either. I had to really touch up the other side to make the cutters close to the same.



Now you're cooking with gas!! That tooth looks good!


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

The mismatched bevels shouldn't effect you at all. . . It really doesn't matter that they're different lengths.

Observe below how much (approximately) gullet I'll clean out on my tooth. You must remember that only the very top of the tooth (at the intersection of the side and top plate, or "point") are doing any work at any given time.

Removing that extra material improves performance believe it or not. There is no loss of side plate stability in the cut, there is no wandering, etc.

You aught to see the noodles I pull, cutting cross grain, with that tooth configuration. . . Smooth as silk too.

I'll illustrate on your picture of the file, why the mismatch won't hurt if you'd like.


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## parrisw (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> The mismatched bevels shouldn't effect you at all. . . It really doesn't matter that they're different lengths.
> 
> Observe below how much (approximately) gullet I'll clean out on my tooth. You must remember that only the very top of the tooth (at the intersection of the side and top plate, or "point") are doing any work at any given time.
> 
> ...



Do you think you could post a pic of one of your chains?


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Do you think you could post a pic of one of your chains?



It's really dark here right now. . . But I will for sure. In fact, I have two new JGX chains in the box. I'll throw one on and convert it to square. . . The one on right now is almost to the witness marks.

I'll cut with my chain, then the other freshy out'a the box for a comparison.

Over the last 8 years, I've experimented with my chain geometry. . . I'm a bit of a freak when it comes to obsessing on sharp things.

I shave with a straight razor now, and if it won't do the HHT (hanging hair test), shaving is uncomfortable. The same goes for any of my edged tools, dull is unacceptable.


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> It's really dark here right now. . . But I will for sure. In fact, I have two new JGX chains in the box. I'll throw one on and convert it to square. . . The one on right now is almost to the witness marks.
> 
> I'll cut with my chain, then the other freshy out'a the box for a comparison.
> 
> ...



Are you a member on Usual Suspects Network?


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> Are you a member on Usual Suspects Network?



NOPE!! Just *A*mericas *M*ost *S*harpened! Hahahahahaha!


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## parrisw (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> It's really dark here right now. . . But I will for sure. In fact, I have two new JGX chains in the box. I'll throw one on and convert it to square. . . The one on right now is almost to the witness marks.
> 
> I'll cut with my chain, then the other freshy out'a the box for a comparison.
> 
> ...



Straight razor eh!! Yikes.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Straight razor eh!! Yikes.



If you can't make things sharp, then it's not something you'll want to try. I use my dads 100+ year old straight razor. I like it, and think it's almost therapeutic. . . 

My razor must do this, or it's not sharp enough:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UF-ayPofWpY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UF-ayPofWpY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## parrisw (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> If you can't make things sharp, then it's not something you'll want to try. I use my dads 100+ year old straight razor. I like it, and think it's almost therapeutic. . .
> 
> My razor must do this, or it's not sharp enough:
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UF-ayPofWpY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UF-ayPofWpY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



That's friggin crazy!! How the heck do you get it that sharp?


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

parrisw said:


> That's friggin crazy!! How the heck do you get it that sharp?



Lots of patience, and some good stones. I finish with a 12,000 grit wet stone, then on to the leather strop with Mothers aluminum polish. . . Then a round on just the leather strop.

Everyone has their own technique. . . But whatever gets you across the finish line. 

You can actually use cardboard as a strop, as they use clay in it's manufacture.


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## parrisw (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Lots of patience, and some good stones. I finish with a 12,000 grit wet stone, then on to the leather strop with Mothers aluminum polish. . . Then a round on just the leather strop.
> 
> Everyone has their own technique. . . But whatever gets you across the finish line.
> 
> You can actually use cardboard as a strop, as they use clay in it's manufacture.



Hmm, don't know if I got's that kind of patience. How much sharpening time is invested in each shave!


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Hmm, don't know if I got's that kind of patience. How much sharpening time is invested in each shave!



I strop on the leather before and after each shave. . . Just a few times.

I usually get 5-8 shaves before I do a utility sharpen on the 12,000.

If you're rebuilding the edge, you'll invest about 2 hours to complete the task.

Understanding edge geometry of all cutting tools, helps you understand what's needed to achieve a sharp chain. Of course, stropping/honing a chain would be silly, unless you were trying to gain hundredths of a second in time. . . Like for racing pro's, etc.


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## redprospector (Jul 19, 2010)

I used to shave with a straight razor until about 10 years ago when it disapeared.  It was my grand dad's.
I would do a "light" sharpening once in a while on the inside of a large, smooth drinking glass. I had 1 leather strop loaded with jewelers rouge, and another just plain leather. There's a lot of way's to skin a cat. 

Most guy's who understand how to really sharpen can pick up square filing pretty easy. It's just simple geometry.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 19, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a picture of a cutter I touched up tonight. The file I was using wasn't the same on the bevels either. I had to really touch up the other side to make the cutters close to the same.



That cutter is looking pretty darn good. This is an excelent picture to show where the file is rubbing the tie strap, that means you've got the right angle there. 

Andy


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## ronT2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Now that's crazy sharp!



Metals406 said:


> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UF-ayPofWpY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UF-ayPofWpY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## husq2100 (Jul 19, 2010)

I dont file chains or shavers.....but have sharpened the odd knife and some chisels ........angle consistantsy is PRIORITY.....put the edge under a magnifing glass and you will see.


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## mdavlee (Jul 19, 2010)

I might try to resurrect the other semi skip round chain one more time to do a video comparison against that chain. I think the square will beat it pretty good this time.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I might try to resurrect the other semi skip round chain one more time to do a video comparison against that chain. I think the square will beat it pretty good this time.



Clean that gullet with a 5/32" file first though. . . You don't have to bring it as far back as I illustrated, but you'll want to file it back none the less.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I used to shave with a straight razor until about 10 years ago when it disapeared.  It was my grand dad's.
> I would do a "light" sharpening once in a while on the inside of a large, smooth drinking glass. I had 1 leather strop loaded with jewelers rouge, and another just plain leather. There's a lot of way's to skin a cat.
> 
> Most guy's who understand how to really sharpen can pick up square filing pretty easy. It's just simple geometry.
> ...



That sucks Andy!! I bet that old razor meant a lot to ya. You should look for the same brand razor on evilBay and pick it up again.


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## mdavlee (Jul 19, 2010)

I'e been using a 7/32" on the gullets. I think I've got one 5/32" I can use to clean them out.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I'e been using a 7/32" on the gullets. I think I've got one 5/32" I can use to clean them out.



A 5/32" fie is perfect for gullet work. . . Even a 3/16" in a pinch. You won't be able to get deep enough with the 7/32" file.

As soon as you feel the 5/32" "grab" you know you're back far enough.


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## troutfisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Sharpening cutting tools can be rewarding work for sure. Here's one of my axes.......

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/Troutfisher_photo/?action=view&current=BaileysAxe.flv


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Sharpening cutting tools can be rewarding work for sure. Here's one of my axes.......
> 
> http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/Troutfisher_photo/?action=view&current=BaileysAxe.flv



Nice TF!

That ax will make a chip! What brand is that one? Is that the Bailey's ax?


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## troutfisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Nice TF!
> 
> That ax will make a chip! What brand is that one? Is that the Bailey's ax?



Yup, Baileys axe. It's fun to use an axe or saw that you prepared yourself. I've actually won money with that thing.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Yup, Baileys axe. It's fun to use an axe or saw that you prepared yourself. I've actually won money with that thing.



How is the grind on those Bailey's axes out'a the box? Do they need a lot of work?


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## troutfisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> How is the grind on those Bailey's axes out'a the box? Do they need a lot of work?



YES!! They need a LOT of work! They are pretty much a blank, and heavy too.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> YES!! They need a LOT of work! They are pretty much a blank, and heavy too.



Ahhh. . . Hence they're not that pricey. It seems they have a lot of potential though eh?

Beats buying a Tuatahi. Them is expensive!


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## troutfisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Ahhh. . . Hence they're not that pricey. It seems they have a lot of potential though eh?
> 
> Beats buying a Tuatahi. Them is expensive!



You get what you pay for. I've seen the baileys axes break hitting knots. I have a couple Tuatahi's, professionally done, and they are way faster than the bailey's axes I've done. But, for guys just getting started I think the Bailey's axe is good. They make a great training/practice axe.


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## Taxmantoo (Jul 19, 2010)

parrisw said:


> That's friggin crazy!! How the heck do you get it that sharp?



Reminds me of an old story about the king of England and some Sultan or Sheik showing off. The king gets out his broadsword, has his men hold up a heavy chain, and breaks the chain with his sword. The sultan holds his sword edge up and has somebody drop a silk cloth over it. The cloth cuts in half when it touches the blade.


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## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> You get what you pay for. I've seen the baileys axes break hitting knots. I have a couple Tuatahi's, professionally done, and they are way faster than the bailey's axes I've done. But, for guys just getting started I think the Bailey's axe is good. They make a great training/practice axe.



No doubt, the quality of the Tuatahi's is renown!


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## parrisw (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Sharpening cutting tools can be rewarding work for sure. Here's one of my axes.......
> 
> http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/Troutfisher_photo/?action=view&current=BaileysAxe.flv



Geeze! You could shave with that!

I used to love sharpening knives when I was a kid? Now when I do, the wife just throws them in the dishwasher with everything else, then I get pissed off, so I just don't do it anymore. I used to sharpen them to where I can shave the hair off the back of my hand with it, then it was good for carving some meat!


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## troutfisher (Jul 19, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Geeze! You could shave with that!
> 
> I used to love sharpening knives when I was a kid? Now when I do, the wife just throws them in the dishwasher with everything else, then I get pissed off, so I just don't do it anymore. I used to sharpen them to where I can shave the hair off the back of my hand with it, then it was good for carving some meat!



The best is when they put the meat into a cast iron frying pan, and THEN cut it in half with a good knife.


----------



## parrisw (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> The best is when they put the meat into a cast iron frying pan, and THEN cut it in half with a good knife.



ha ha ha ha ha. Yup seen that done too!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> The best is when they put the meat into a cast iron frying pan, and THEN cut it in half with a good knife.





parrisw said:


> ha ha ha ha ha. Yup seen that done too!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR



My wife is a notorious knife duller. . . Every time I tell her I've sharpened one of her knives, and "Be careful! It's very sharp!"

And every time she'll find flesh with it. 

She told me to stop telling her they're sharp, and then she won't cut herself.


----------



## redprospector (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> A 5/32" fie is perfect for gullet work. . . Even a 3/16" in a pinch. You won't be able to get deep enough with the 7/32" file.
> 
> As soon as you feel the 5/32" "grab" you know you're back far enough.



I agree that it's probably easier to clean out the gullets with a 5/32" file. But I generally clean them out with a 7/32". You just have to file the bottom of the gullet a little deeper, which allows for a little better chip removal.................But I guess that's not something for square filing 101. 

This gullet was cleaned with a 7/32.






Andy

Hell, these gullets were cut with a 1/4". :jawdrop:


----------



## troutfisher (Jul 19, 2010)

Sorry for derailing your thread Red!! Looks like you got a few hours in that chain:jawdrop:


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 19, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I agree that it's probably easier to clean out the gullets with a 5/32" file. But I generally clean them out with a 7/32". You just have to file the bottom of the gullet a little deeper, which allows for a little better chip removal.................But I guess that's not something for square filing 101.
> 
> This gullet was cleaned with a 7/32.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah Andy. . . You can clean with a 7/32". I just like the 5/32" for the profile I do. It may seem too deep to some -- but it cuts like hell. . . And the gullets are clean for the next couple sharpenings without doing it again. 

That race chain looks wicked BTW! :chainsawguy:


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 19, 2010)

I think it cut me looking at it.


----------



## J.W Younger (Jul 19, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I agree that it's probably easier to clean out the gullets with a 5/32" file. But I generally clean them out with a 7/32". You just have to file the bottom of the gullet a little deeper, which allows for a little better chip removal.................But I guess that's not something for square filing 101.
> 
> This gullet was cleaned with a 7/32.
> 
> ...


do you tunnel or remove any metal underneath?
On the race chain I mean.


----------



## redprospector (Jul 19, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> do you tunnel or remove any metal underneath?
> On the race chain I mean.



Juuuust a little.






Andy


----------



## redprospector (Jul 19, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Sorry for derailing your thread Red!! Looks like you got a few hours in that chain:jawdrop:



All threads derail sooner or later. 
I'm surprised this one has lasted as long as it has.  I just hope it's doing someone some good. I love these threads because they make me stop, look, and think about things. 

Oh, and there might be one or two hours in that chain. 

Andy


----------



## redprospector (Jul 19, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Oh yeah Andy. . . You can clean with a 7/32". I just like the 5/32" for the profile I do. It may seem too deep to some -- but it cuts like hell. . . And the gullets are clean for the next couple sharpenings without doing it again.
> 
> That race chain looks wicked BTW! :chainsawguy:



Yeah, I was looking at your pic and thought about not having to clean the gullet's as often. I'm gonna do a little experimenting with your gullet geometry. I was just trying to show the basics. Maybe I shoulda named this thread Square filing 101. Then we coulda started another one for advanced student's. 

Andy


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 20, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yeah, I was looking at your pic and thought about not having to clean the gullet's as often. I'm gonna do a little experimenting with your gullet geometry. I was just trying to show the basics. Maybe I shoulda named this thread Square filing 101. Then we coulda started another one for advanced student's.
> 
> Andy



:blush:

Oops. . . I guess some of this stuff is a bit advanced. But, still, let me know what you think of the geometry Andy.

It has served me well, and I like it. . . You'll want to clean with a 5/32" though -- trust me. 

That design can be brought further into the race realm as well.


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 20, 2010)

This thread has helped me out some. I might not give up on square chain after all. I need to order some more chains and files now.


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## redprospector (Jul 20, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> This thread has helped me out some. I might not give up on square chain after all. I need to order some more chains and files now.



Hahaha. It's a never ending cycle. More chain, more files, more chain, more files. Oops, gotta have a bar. More chain, more files. 

Andy


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 20, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. It's a never ending cycle. More chain, more files, more chain, more files. Oops, gotta have a bar. More chain, more files.
> 
> Andy


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 20, 2010)

Yeah I've got plenty of round files and chains. I just don't want to convert the chains over to square. A lot of them only have only about 1/2 life left in them. I might have to place an order with madsens. Have any of you tried the double ended double bevel files they sell?


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 20, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah I've got plenty of round files and chains. I just don't want to convert the chains over to square. A lot of them only have only about 1/2 life left in them. I might have to place an order with madsens. Have any of you tried the double ended double bevel files they sell?



I'm not sure if I have or not? I know I've used 3 or 4 brands of square file (I have yet to try a Save Edge). I think I'm gonna try the double-ender next go around. . . Seems like it'd be good, like getting two files for the price of one.

Oh, and a chain that's at half-life is still worth converting to square. . . It'll cut faster than a newly converted chain.


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 20, 2010)

What brands of files have you tried metals? I've tried the pferd and save edge from baileys and the viiala from madsens and one of the vallorbe that goes with the atop that baileys sells. The vallorbe seems to be the best as far as lasting and not chipping. The viiala are second best so far. I have some triangle files but don't remember what kind they are and they don't have any markings on them. I thought about ordering the double enders next time to try them.


----------



## redprospector (Jul 20, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> What brands of files have you tried metals? I've tried the pferd and save edge from baileys and the viiala from madsens and one of the vallorbe that goes with the atop that baileys sells. The vallorbe seems to be the best as far as lasting and not chipping. The viiala are second best so far. I have some triangle files but don't remember what kind they are and they don't have any markings on them. I thought about ordering the double enders next time to try them.



I'm not metals, but I'm gonna jump in here anyway. 
I've used the Valorbe, Pferd, and another brand that I can't remember. The old Oberg's were my favorites though. Wish they still made them.
I haven't tried the Valorbe's that go with the A-Top, but I found their double bevels to be a lot finer cut than the Pferd's. Which is ok for light touch ups, but they seemed to dull a lot quicker to me.
I've heard people complaine about the Pferd's not having straight edges, but even if the corners are not perfectly straight, they are a lot straighter than most folks can run a file.
I still have another dozen Pferd's to burn up, so they're my favorite right now. But I really want to try those double bevel double enders you mentioned.

Andy


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 20, 2010)

I'll get a picture of the vallorbe in a minute. I'm searching for my madsens catalog to see what the double enders cost.


----------



## mdavlee (Jul 20, 2010)

Here's the pictures of the files. The viala from madsens first.







The vallorbe


----------



## RiverRat2 (Jul 20, 2010)

redprospector said:


> In the second picture you posted I can see that you are definately a little high in the working corner. Get the file to match exactly in the working corner and you will see a definate improvement. The gullet is also on the verge of needing to be cleaned out with a round file. All in all it looks like you are doing pretty good.
> It's hard to teach this without doing it in person, and even harder to learn it that way. My hat's off to you for putting in the effort.
> 
> Andy



I've got a 20" loop I keep on my 60CC saw,,,,, been hand filing with the Save-edge files,,, I really like them,,, It's so sharp it'll cut you just looking @ it!!!! LOLOL!!! we use it for flying tops when they are too big for the 020T,,, The 361 is woods ported and is pretty quick,,, Makes a good saw ground for busting tops quick as you part one down and are Hauling it out of the customers yard as you go!!!!,,,,,


----------



## Metals406 (Jul 21, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> What brands of files have you tried metals? I've tried the pferd and save edge from baileys and the viiala from madsens and one of the vallorbe that goes with the atop that baileys sells. The vallorbe seems to be the best as far as lasting and not chipping. The viiala are second best so far. I have some triangle files but don't remember what kind they are and they don't have any markings on them. I thought about ordering the double enders next time to try them.



I have tried all that you mentioned. . . But also want to try the double-enders.



redprospector said:


> I'm not metals, but I'm gonna jump in here anyway.
> I've used the Valorbe, Pferd, and another brand that I can't remember. The old Oberg's were my favorites though. Wish they still made them.
> I haven't tried the Valorbe's that go with the A-Top, but I found their double bevels to be a lot finer cut than the Pferd's. Which is ok for light touch ups, but they seemed to dull a lot quicker to me.
> I've heard people complaine about the Pferd's not having straight edges, but even if the corners are not perfectly straight, they are a lot straighter than most folks can run a file.
> ...



I agree. . . Pferd's are sitting on top of my list right now too.

I found another brand supposedly made in Canada on evilBay (I think it was evilBay anyway?), but never ordered one -- and I'm not sure about the quality?

I will find the link and post it here. . . Maybe I should break down and order a couple to see how they do?

I definitely want to try the double end too though.


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## mdavlee (Jul 21, 2010)

I might place a order with madsens today and see what the double enders look like. Only thing is I won't see them til the middle of next week.


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## Metals406 (Jul 21, 2010)

I can't find that listing for those "Canadian' files. . . Oh well.

As soon as these other files are gone. . . I'll be ordering some double-enders.


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## mdavlee (Jul 21, 2010)

I got the new catalog today. The double enders are $8.95 each which isn't too bad I don't guess if you get 2 files in one. The only thing is it will have to be short strokes with a 7" file that is cut on both ends.


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## redprospector (Jul 22, 2010)

RiverRat2 said:


> I've got a 20" loop I keep on my 60CC saw,,,,, been hand filing with the Save-edge files,,, I really like them,,, It's so sharp it'll cut you just looking @ it!!!! LOLOL!!! we use it for flying tops when they are too big for the 020T,,, The 361 is woods ported and is pretty quick,,, Makes a good saw ground for busting tops quick as you part one down and are Hauling it out of the customers yard as you go!!!!,,,,,



Yeah, when you're piecing one down like that you've got to have a good fast cutting saw so the groundmen don't get squashed in the kill zone.  I quit climbing after I woke up one morning and realized my grandkids were right......I'm getting old. 
I'm going to try the Save edge files. I've heard too much good about them to let em slide. But I'm going to use up this box of Pferd's before I do anything.

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 22, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yeah, when you're piecing one down like that you've got to have a good fast cutting saw so the groundmen don't get squashed in the kill zone.  I quit climbing after I woke up one morning and realized my grandkids were right......I'm getting old.
> I'm going to try the Save edge files. I've heard too much good about them to let em slide. But I'm going to use up this box of Pferd's before I do anything.
> 
> Andy



For what its worth, I think that these Save edge goofey files are very nice. They cut really great, best file that Ive used so far. 

And today I ran the file on the 357 again, I tried to hold the file at a little steeper angle, took a couple of cuts, I think its a little better this time, sorry no pics yet or vids.


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## redprospector (Jul 22, 2010)

parrisw said:


> For what its worth, I think that these Save edge goofey files are very nice. They cut really great, best file that Ive used so far.
> 
> And today I ran the file on the 357 again, I tried to hold the file at a little steeper angle, took a couple of cuts, I think its a little better this time, sorry no pics yet or vids.



Good deal!!
Without being able to be there to show you, you'll have to find the sweet spot on your own, with a little cyber coaching. Once you find it, it won't be long before it becomes "natural". Then you'll be trying to figure out how to explain what your doing to help someone else. 

Andy


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## parrisw (Jul 22, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Good deal!!
> Without being able to be there to show you, you'll have to find the sweet spot on your own, with a little cyber coaching. Once you find it, it won't be long before it becomes "natural". Then you'll be trying to figure out how to explain what your doing to help someone else.
> 
> Andy



Thanks!! Looking forward to trying full square soon.


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## J.W Younger (Jul 22, 2010)

something I've been wanting to bring up is the fact the square chain takes wear and tear off the saw. It runs cooler and gets better fuel mileage.
May be because I'm more carefull with it but chain life seems better too.
I've cut 15 plus cord with one chain and its still half life or better,after putting it in the dirt a couple of times and cutting a nail in my bucking horse.
I would like to see more people try it even if they end up round fileing it when it needs sharpening.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Zombiechopper (Jul 22, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> something I've been wanting to bring up is the fact the square chain takes wear and tear off the saw. It runs cooler and gets better fuel mileage.
> May be because I'm more carefull with it but chain life seems better too.
> I've cut 15 plus cord with one chain and its still half life or better,after putting it in the dirt a couple of times and cutting a nail in my bucking horse.
> I would like to see more people try it even if they end up round fileing it when it needs sharpening.
> Just my 2 cents.



So, if I bought some square ground and did not like it is it as easy to go back to round as it is to get round to square? I have always been square-curious and I am thinking of my trying my first square experience. Would it be better to buy a loop or buy a file and convert some round chain?


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## BobL (Jul 23, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> something I've been wanting to bring up is the fact the square chain takes wear and tear off the saw. It runs cooler and gets better fuel mileage.
> May be because I'm more carefull with it but chain life seems better too.
> I've cut 15 plus cord with one chain and its still half life or better,after putting it in the dirt a couple of times and cutting a nail in my bucking horse.
> I would like to see more people try it even if they end up round fileing it when it needs sharpening.
> Just my 2 cents.



Seeing as there are people from all over the world reading this forum this point needs some clarification. In serious hardwood the square ground point gets rolled over in just a couple of sqft of cut. After that the saw is working harder than round ground. I learned the hard way, I milled about 30 aussie hardwood logs with square ground before switching to round ground and I would never go back. I keep a couple of loops of square ground to play with if I ever come across a softwood.


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## J.W Younger (Jul 23, 2010)

BobL said:


> Seeing as there are people from all over the world reading this forum this point needs some clarification. In serious hardwood the square ground point gets rolled over in just a couple of sqft of cut. After that the saw is working harder than round ground. I learned the hard way, I milled about 30 aussie hardwood logs with square ground before switching to round ground and I would never go back. I keep a couple of loops of square ground to play with if I ever come across a softwood.


I did say ma be cause I'm more careful with it, LOL. your right Bob I cut mostly clean,soft by your standards wood, hell I dont't even cut close to the ground.I use anouther saw with semi chisel for flush cutting,hollow trees etc.But, its been my experience round ground will knock the nose down too if you keep sawing with a dull chain, and this is just in soft oak and hickory.


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## J.W Younger (Jul 23, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> So, if I bought some square ground and did not like it is it as easy to go back to round as it is to get round to square? I have always been square-curious and I am thinking of my trying my first square experience. Would it be better to buy a loop or buy a file and convert some round chain?


Yeah defineatly easier going from square too round than the other way around.
I never wood have been able to convert round to square whitout getting some time with fileing the square 1st.


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## redprospector (Jul 23, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> So, if I bought some square ground and did not like it is it as easy to go back to round as it is to get round to square? I have always been square-curious and I am thinking of my trying my first square experience. Would it be better to buy a loop or buy a file and convert some round chain?



I'd say get a few loops of square to try. That way you can see first hand what you're trying to replicate with the file. If you don't like it file it round, no problem. Just remember Oregon square chain is not really that sharp right out of the box.

Andy


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## troutfisher (Jul 23, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I'm going to try the Save edge files. I've heard too much good about them to let em slide. But I'm going to use up this box of Pferd's before I do anything.
> 
> Andy



Red, all I buy now is SaveEdge. They are very good files.


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## redprospector (Jul 23, 2010)

BobL said:


> Seeing as there are people from all over the world reading this forum this point needs some clarification. In serious hardwood the square ground point gets rolled over in just a couple of sqft of cut. After that the saw is working harder than round ground. I learned the hard way, I milled about 30 aussie hardwood logs with square ground before switching to round ground and I would never go back. I keep a couple of loops of square ground to play with if I ever come across a softwood.



You may be right, but the clarification needs to go farther.
Square ground is not good for milling in any wood. It is strictly a crosscut profile. It would be like taking an 8 pt hand saw and trying to rip a 10' 6x6.
I've never found a wood so hard that it wouldn't cut faster than, and last almost as long as round chisel. But then again I've never cut Ausi wood. Square chisel chain was however developed in the PNW for cutting big conifers.
If the wood over there is as nasty as you guy's say, maybe you should be milling with a trencher with rock teeth. 

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Red, all I buy now is SaveEdge. They are very good files.



Hmmmm. . . I trust your opinion, so now I have to try their files. And they're definitely cheaper than spending 10 licks a piece.


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## redprospector (Jul 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Red, all I buy now is SaveEdge. They are very good files.



Cool, I'll be giving them a try as soon as I run out of Pferds. May not be too much longer. I'm finally getting back to falling Monday. Well, falling, skidding, and masticating 320 acres. About stinkin' time, but it'll keep me buisy for a day or two. 

Andy


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## RiverRat2 (Jul 31, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Red, all I buy now is SaveEdge. They are very good files.



See what I mean!!!! I found out about them @ the TCIA Tree care Convention about 5 years ago they had a booth there and I bought a box of each for all the round sizes I use plus a couple of Flats for rakers and a couple of three squares and Flat chisel bits and havent looked back,,, and if you want to build a racing chain,,, check out the Goofy files,, 

I would have to say they are the sharpest files Ive ever used,, Keep them clean and they will last a very long time,,


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## parrisw (Jul 31, 2010)

RiverRat2 said:


> See what I mean!!!! I found out about them @ the TCIA Tree care Convention about 5 years ago they had a booth there and I bought a box of each for all the round sizes I use plus a couple of Flats for rakers and a couple of three squares and Flat chisel bits and havent looked back,,, and if you want to build a racing chain,,, check out the Goofy files,,
> 
> I would have to say they are the sharpest files Ive ever used,, Keep them clean and they will last a very long time,,



I just got some of the goofy files, and they are very nice. Ultra sharp!!! And good price too!!


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## mdavlee (Aug 4, 2010)

I finally ordered some chain and I got one of the double ended files on the way from madsens. The guy on the phone said it was the oberg style or said something about oberg. I would guess they will be here early next week. I ordered up some of the durapro semi skip in 32" and a full skip 32" in it. It supposed to be wider kerf and a little bigger tooth. I have a regular oregon semi skip square here already for the 32" rw bar.


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## mdavlee (Aug 9, 2010)

Alright I got the double ended file in the mail. I'm a little disappointed that the sides are almost like a goofy file. It will probably be easier to use that way but it's not a true double bevel. It is made by viala like the double bevels they sell. I noticed the viala and save edge are the same blank buts cut different. THey are both made in portugal. Save edge is cut in the US.


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## Gypo Logger (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm sorry to say I've given up on filing anything but round, it's just not worth the effort. Time is better spent elsewhere, such as chirping on AS or cutting wood. The only way to get a sq. chain perfect is to grind it. Go to Hell Art Martin, Tommy Fales and Dennis Cahoon!
Pal John


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## Metals406 (Aug 9, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I'm sorry to say I've given up on filing anything but round, it's just not worth the effort. Time is better spent elsewhere, such as chirping on AS or cutting wood. The only way to get a sq. chain perfect is to grind it. Go to Hell Art Martin, Tommy Fales and Dennis Cahoon!
> Pal John



:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## mdavlee (Aug 9, 2010)

I know how you fell Yukon. I just dulled 2 square chains with one cut a piece in sassafras and it's still green. One was a brand new Oregon durapro chain and the other was just oregon CK chain. The dry oak will really dull the cutters bad on a square chain. I think I'll stick with round for anything but pine and I'll only use it if I fell the tree.


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## Gypo Logger (Aug 9, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I know how you fell Yukon. I just dulled 2 square chains with one cut a piece in sassafras and it's still green. One was a brand new Oregon durapro chain and the other was just oregon CK chain. The dry oak will really dull the cutters bad on a square chain. I think I'll stick with round for anything but pine and I'll only use it if I fell the tree.



I hear ya mdavlee, I was really into sq.grinding a few years ago for work and GTG's and got pretty good at it. I found it never dulled quicker than round, but that was maybe the angles I used. I have since sold the grinder, but wished I still had it. I can grind sq. a whole lot faster and accurate than I can file sq.
John


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## Metals406 (Aug 9, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I know how you fell Yukon. I just dulled 2 square chains with one cut a piece in sassafras and it's still green. One was a brand new Oregon durapro chain and the other was just oregon CK chain. The dry oak will really dull the cutters bad on a square chain. I think I'll stick with round for anything but pine and I'll only use it if I fell the tree.



Everyone should always keep in mind square was developed for softwoods timber falling.

Expecting square to be a universal profile across the board, is like expecting whipped cream to be good on pie an antiseptic ointment, hair cream, and window cleaner.

Another consideration is tooth profile. . . If you have a 45° top-plate, it'll last a long time. . . I use square to cut Black Hawthorne, and that crap is HARD! And my teeth don't show any adverse wear or dulling when I'm done. Granted, I'm not cutting a cord at a time either.

Tooth profile is important, square or round. I can sharpen a square chain that's fast as all get out, but no longevity. I can file a round chain that is fast as all get out, but with no longevity.

Sounds like you boys back east need freaking carbide chain! LOL


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## mdavlee (Aug 9, 2010)

No we don't need carbide, but round or semi chisel rules in the dirty hard woods we cut most of the time.

I can barely get square to beat round in cookie cutting anyway. I'll probably end up round filing everything but the 20". I might save it for GTGs if I ever can make one.


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## Gypo Logger (Aug 9, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Expecting square to be a universal profile across the board, is like expecting whipped cream to be good on pie an antiseptic ointment, hair cream, and window cleaner.



Lol
John


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## komatsuvarna (Jul 10, 2011)

Yeah I know this is a year old thread, but its a good one.

Did anyone ever get around to modding the Oregon filing guide so a double bevel would fit? Id try this mod, but haven't exactly figured out what is required yet.

Any one tried the ATOP filing guides for the square grind? In their video it looks like they do a hell of a job, but the guide its self is high, and the replacement files isn't cheep either.

Ive been trying the square grind stuff for about a month, I didn't find it that hard to pick up on,,,, but Im not that good yet either. I get lucky ever now and then and get a few good cutters, some of the rest isn't so pretty, but they seem to cut good and straight so maybe there not off too bad yet. Hers a few pictures of a free handed chain.


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## mdavlee (Jul 10, 2011)

Looking good durand. :msp_thumbsup:It does take a while to get consistent teeth.


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

Bump!

Good info, experience, and opinions - time to bring it back into the light again.

Thanks for the input fellas!

Philbert


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## 3000 FPS (Jan 30, 2013)

Ok I have done some square filing on a couple of chains. One 3/8 and another .325. I have been using the triangle files from stihl. I took one of the files and ground one side of it flat for the .325 chain so that it would clear the links. I got a side beak on some of the cutters but over all both chains cut very well and very straight. I think i am going to do one more chain for another saw in 3/8. I usually get them in a vise I made for holding the drivers and convert them from round to square over a 3 or 4 day period.


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

3000 FPS said:


> I usually get them in a vise I made for holding the drivers and convert them from round to square over a 3 or 4 day period.



Need photos of the vise!

Would 'squaring off' the top plates of the cutters (with an Oregon 511a type grinder) to the new starting angle for square grind speed up conversion (and save files)?

Philbert


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## Termite (Jan 30, 2013)

Here are photos of my vice. The two halves slide over the 4 rollpins. They are for alignment only.It works pretty well. The top bevel on the vice acts as a 45 degree guide and gives clearance for the file.I am thinking of making another using pony clamps.


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## hillwilliam (Jan 30, 2013)

This is a good old thread! Hadn't seen it until it was resurrected. It was LATE last night when I finished looking at it. There are some other threads going on the subject now, if interested.


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## R DeLawter (Jan 30, 2013)

hillwilliam said:


> This is a good old thread! Hadn't seen it until it was resurrected. It was LATE last night when I finished looking at it. There are some other threads going on the subject now, if interested.



Can you list those other threads?
I have been reading through this and it is interesting all the different opinions on sg and whether it is worth doing for hard wood cutting.


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

Termite said:


> Here are photos of my vice.



I copied these photos to this thread, that shows other home-made filing vises, to keep a bunch of them together:
- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/120500.htm



hillwilliam said:


> There are some other threads going on the subject now, if interested.





R DeLawter said:


> Can you list those other threads?



Here are a couple of related threads that I am aware of:

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/224043.htm

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/69509.htm

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/223905.htm

I got an itch to try and play around with square ground chain, but have no experience, so I will be watching these threads and asking lots of questions. Please add any additional threads, including any oldy-but-goody ones.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

P.S. - doing a _Search_ for 'square ground' (in the titles only, uncheck 'exact name') came back with 103 threads - then dropped down to 53 (A.S. search engine apparently can be a finicky as filing square chain?).

I have not looked through all of them - there might be a lot of repetition of what is in the threads above. There might be some dead ends. But there might be some gems. You will also get different results searching for 'square filed' or 'full chisel chain'. Please let us know if you find any of those gems.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## R DeLawter (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks Philbert.
I have read through some of the threads with interest for some time.
Trouble is I am not a whole lot better with the search engine than I am with posting pictures.

You do an excellent job and put out very good posts for us to learn from.


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## hillwilliam (Jan 30, 2013)

'Hand Filing Square' that Philbert already mentioned is one I was thinking of. And 'Best Brand of File' talks a bit about chisel files.


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

*SG on Smaller Chains?*

I bought a used Silvey from another A.S. member, but it will take me a while to get it set up, learn how to dress the stones. etc. Might have to wait for some warmer weather to really try it (I prefer to grind outdoors or in the garage).

Most of my saws run smaller chains, so I am looking for any input on these. It looks like Oregon 22LPX, and Carlton K3L are round ground .325 chisel cutters that I can convert to square ground (.063 gauge). Also, STIHL Rapid-Super (RS) also comes in .325 pitch.

In 3/8 low profile chain, STIHL PS3 is the only full chisel chain I can find.

I'm thinking of using my Oregon 511a style grinder to adjust the cutter top plate angles from 30* to 20*, and to remove the hook on the side plate, before forming the square ground profile. Make sense?

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

hillwilliam said:


> 'Hand Filing Square' that Philbert already mentioned is one I was thinking of. And 'Best Brand of File' talks a bit about chisel files.



Here is the thread hillwilliam refers to: - http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/152695.htm

There are several more on the same topic, with similar and differing opinions.

Philbert


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## mdavlee (Jan 30, 2013)

Philbert said:


> I bought a used Silvey from another A.S. member, but it will take me a while to get it set up, learn how to dress the stones. etc. Might have to wait for some warmer weather to really try it (I prefer to grind outdoors or in the garage).
> 
> Most of my saws run smaller chains, so I am looking for any input on these. It looks like Oregon 22LPX, and Carlton K3L are round ground .325 chisel cutters that I can convert to square ground (.063 gauge). Also, STIHL Rapid-Super (RS) also comes in .325 pitch.
> 
> ...



I run my top plate almost 25°. I don't square the cutters off with a round grinder. I just start grinding on them with a square wheel and that way you don't waste any cutter.


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## w8ye (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't square grind .325 or 3/8 lo pro chains.

Regular 3/8 round ground chisel, I just square grind it with the square grinder. hardly more trouble than just round sharpening round ground chain.

I've filed round 3/8 chain square with the Atop guide. It will wear out a file to do a 60DL one.


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## R DeLawter (Jan 30, 2013)

"I don't square grind .325 or 3/8 lo pro chains"

Is it a waste of time to sg .325 or does it not hold up?
I thought It would be good on my 346xp rather then changing to 3/8 chain.


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## mdavlee (Jan 30, 2013)

I think it will be hard to square grind the smaller chain with the shorter teeth. There's not much room to get in there between the raker and tooth and get a good angle.


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## R DeLawter (Jan 30, 2013)

OK.

I thought maybe you could grind it easier than you could file it.

I haven't tried either yet but have a used Simington 451 somewhere between Michigan and my place so trying to learn all I can.


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I think it will be hard to square grind the smaller chain with the shorter teeth.



I'm going to 'play' with it and see what I can do. I will have more opportunities to cut with it using the smaller saws. I'm really pretty happy with semi-chisel chain for the cutting I do. You guys got me thinking about square grind and it is just something else to learn. 

Should only cost me a few files and maybe a couple of chains? The grinder should keep it's value.

I appreciate all the info, advice, and opinions that you guys have been willing to share.

Philbert


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## 3000 FPS (Jan 30, 2013)

R DeLawter said:


> "I don't square grind .325 or 3/8 lo pro chains"
> 
> Is it a waste of time to sg .325 or does it not hold up?
> I thought It would be good on my 346xp rather then changing to 3/8 chain.



I do not have a square grinder but I did square file a .325 for a 20" bar. The chain cuts fast, smooth, and straight. Even with some side beaks on it. I have not done alot of sawing with it yet but what I have done, it seems to be holding up ok. I will say this, that I will be picky about what I cut with it because it did take awhile to file that many cutters. Was it worth it, I like to think so.


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