# chipper nightmare



## priest (May 31, 2005)

Thanks for the warm welcome master blaster and david.

I bought a really nice bucket truck (96 GMC Topkick, perfect working order, diesel, etc) a couple of months ago. Anyways, I've been sitting on an old Mitts and Merrill chipper for a couple of years that I picked up cheap, not having a dump bed to blow chips into (been using the old steel side-wall trailer with a rope around the brush technique for a long while). 

So I decided to restore the chipper. Long road. I've put god knows how many hours into it myself and spent a bit of money on different welding and machining work. Well, I got all knew knives in it myself (the old ones didn't want to come out too eagerly). One of the inserts that the wedge/knife goes into was boogered up by some past overzealous owner with a cutting torch, and the drum was out of balance, noticealble by the WAAA, WAAA, WAA, sound when it slowed down. I rigged a knife in that slot anyway, and the thing was chipping like a madman, increasing my productivity by a landslide compared to hauling unchipped brush. But I was afraid it would come apart and hurt somebody, so I took it to a machine shop that came highly reccommended. They say they had all kinds of problems removing the drum, replacing the bearings, etc. and stuck me with a bill of 2 grand. I fired it up in their parking lot and a knife came loose, chewed up half of the 12 brand new teeth, and shot out. Meanwhile I'm losing money working the slow way. 

So I ordered more knives overnight shipment and went to the shop the next day to help their really-not-that-knowledgeable employees install them. The head honcho went home for the day about 6 and one employee stayed and we got everything set (knives installed and clearance set close to specs). We fired it up in the parking lot. I was literally standing there with my fingers crossed as it approached its characteristic 747 jetairliner sound. Everything smooth so far, I took the arborist saw that David sold me and cut down a baby cedar tree to put through it. As I was walking up to the machine, it through another knife, inexplicably, right through the sides of the chute, broken into three pieces like three 50 caliber rounds.

I pulled the chipper home in a state of despair and disrepair. Obviously I can't use it not knowing when and why it might become more dangerous than a casual strole through Baghdad. Told the guy the day before not to cash the check until I call him because I don't have the money in the account yet due to this downtime. I've got the work to cover the money, but who wants to work to pay for an unfixed fix? Of course now I know I shouldn't have paid him until I personally saw the thing running perfect, but sometimes I tend to put to much faith in people, especially on a good referral. I've got to call him in the morning, and if it doesn't go well I've got to decide whether or not to put a stop payment on the check and deal with him legally--what a headache.

Got to get rid of this chipper I guess and find something better. Now that I've used it I'm spoiled and can't feel good about loading brush in a trailer and a trip to the burnpile every two hours. 

Any advice on good chippers or dealing with unfulfilled promises would be appreciated. Or a good chipper disaster therapist.

Thanks

Nathan Priest


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## TimberMcPherson (May 31, 2005)

Sorry your lumped with a lemon, at least you didnt sell the farm buying it and continue to sell off body parts to make a 30 year old machine run like a 30 year old machine. 

I think if you jump on Al Quada Ebay you could sell it to one of their suicide squads.


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## NeTree (May 31, 2005)

Take it back. They need to either fix it correctly, whatever it takes, and eat the overage... or let you sue them.


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## Stumper (May 31, 2005)

Yes. The $2000 dollar bill sounds ridiculous but may have been justified-for a repair. Their "repairs" have damaged the machine and made it unusable. If I read you correctly the machine worked when you too kit in to have it made safer. Obviously they did not do what you contracted them for. They have to fix it.


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## Lumberjack (May 31, 2005)

I agree with Eric and Justin. 

Your machine worked when you put it in the shop, you wanted to make it safer. They say here you go with a 2k bill and a machine that destroyed 7(?) teeth? when you fired it up in their parkin lot.

Cancell the check and talk to the owner. If he is going to be a dickhead (anything other than a horrified, shocked and willing to do whatever on his dime to make it right for you) about it, call your lawyer and have him talk to them. I bet the company wont want to go through the legalities and the bad press and will make it good.

If not, stick them for the damage the machine has now (from all the teeth, i would immagine the anvil is all kinds of messed up, the chute, wherever the broken bits exited the machine), lost time and productivity, and legal fees. Then go buy a new chipper, after taking this one to the scrap yard and cashing it in. 

"Projects" are awesome, but the have no place in a production setting IMO. I have "projects" also, but not that will cause me to stop and miss work.


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## Lumberjack (May 31, 2005)

Yes, but a nickel says that he wasnt supposed to be in the work area due to insurance reasons. 

To me, the machine is a lost cause, but when he installed the blades the first time he had no problems, he put it in the shop for an added safety margin.

From the sounds of it the shop should have declined the work, but since they didnt, they are responsible IMO, at least to a degree.

When the blades came loose or out, what started the failure(s)?


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## treeman82 (May 31, 2005)

I had a problem like this with a local shop when they worked on a piece of equipment for me. They were glad to take my money. Unfortunately, they wouldn't make good when their repair went into a state of disrepair. So, I took it to some people I've dealt with for several years and they took really good care of me. A friend of mine owes me some favors, so the next crappy day we get, I am going to bring his Godzilla like a$$ over to this shop and get my money back.


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## darkstar (May 31, 2005)

thank god you are still alive .....that chipper is death waiting to happen .....


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## MasterBlaster (May 31, 2005)

And Death never has to wait long.


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## priest (May 31, 2005)

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I agree with you that the shop did not fulfill its duties, and I also agree with TreeCo that I need to just keep every one out of harms way from here on out, scrap this chipper, and buy a better one. I stopped payment on the check today and plan to talk to a lawyer in the morning and then call the machine guy. 

Another consideration is that when I first contacted this machine guy and asked him if he knew how to work on chippers, he said "Oh yeah, I've worked on plenty of chippers". And then when I took it to him he told me what he thought needed to be done to make it safe, said it could be done, and told me he would charge me $50 an hour for HIS labor, which he said could get expensive if things did not go smoothly. He said it could take 10 hours, or it could take as much as 20 hours. He threw out the highball number of $1000.

Well, when I went to get it, he handed me a bill for 52 hours of labor ($2600) and an additional $300 in parts plus tax, for a total of $2996. He said he would take a third off the bill to make it $2000. At no point during the 10 days they had this beast did he contact me to warn me that they were exceeding the original estimate. 

Additionally, when he called me and asked me to come "help" them install the knives so it would "go faster", I was working with one kid about 20 years old, completely clueless about chippers, not a fast learner, and probably being paid less than $10 per hour. Those were the types of employees that had done the majority of the work. They didn't even have the hex heads with a 1/2 inch drive for their air ratchet. I had to bring them that day. Nor did they have the tool to loosen the knives once the bolts were out. I brought my tool, a bolt that was stripped so it wouldn't spin as a spacer was inserted and a threaded piece of pipe screwed in behind it! They had apparently worked all those knives on and off with a little hex wrench and a cheat bar. No telling how long these guys spent trying to loosen the wedges. When I went to pick it up the first time they told me they were unable to remove two of the knives, both of which I just replaced two weeks ago myself. You talk about inefficient (at $50 per hour). 
I don't know that the main man with his INFINITE KNOWLEDGE of chippers had even done any of the work himself. He was less than eager to even supervise while I was there, nor did he offer any useful advise.

I know I don't want that chipper, so it doesn't do me much good to take it back to him and tell him to fix it right. I wouldn't even feel good about selling that chipper to anyone if it was fixed, even with the appropriate warnings. I just think I'll try to keep from having to pay for the nonfix, eat my losses on downtime, and move on with my life. 

And I'm not complaining too much, because at least no one got hurt.

Thanks again for your comments.

Nathan Priest


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## Stumper (May 31, 2005)

I have to admit that I wonder what was done . The Mitts and Merrill has a good reputation. In fact it is considered by some to be the safest of all the old "Chuck and Duck" style drum chippers. There may be expense involved in putting things right but the machine CAN be made safe and functional. Presumably engine, clutch and running gear are all okay so the only things to dink around with are the drum (which can be replaced if it is too screwed up) and the anvil/bed knife. No matter what was done, a competent outfit can restore to factory specs. At this point the chute probably needs repair but that is simple-A buddy built me an entire new discharge chute for $200. I know that he didn't charge me enough labor but it still is a simple bit of cutting and welding. Repairing the existing one shouldn't take much.

If you are completely gunshy about the machine you can either get it repaired right and then sell it or sell it as is with disclosure. In fact-if you decide to sell let me know-I might be interested.


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## juststumps (Jun 1, 2005)

IMO, looks like an older machine bought cheap.. welded, torched,, screwed,, tatooed!!!! probably should be scrap iron....looks like this machine had more problems,, from the getgo, than a math bbook!!! sounds from the first post, this machice, already had issues!! machine shop tried.. i wouldn't hold mit agains't them.. M+M,probably wouldn't work on it!!!


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## spacemule (Jun 1, 2005)

juststumps said:


> IMO, looks like an older machine bought cheap.. welded, torched,, screwed,, tatooed!!!! probably should be scrap iron....looks like this machine had more problems,, from the getgo, than a math bbook!!! sounds from the first post, this machice, already had issues!! machine shop tried.. i wouldn't hold mit agains't them.. M+M,probably wouldn't work on it!!!


You don't hold it against a shop to promise a certain job to be done in a certain time frame, charge $3000, and then have their work be a complete failure? If they couldn't do the work, they should have said so. If M&M wouldn't work on it, these guys shouldn't have either, no? I don't think arguing your point that way helps the shop any. These guys are paid good money to work on stuff and give an accurate opinion--they're professionals. Seems open and shut to me.


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## priest (Jun 1, 2005)

Engine runs like a sewing machine. And anything else but the drum I can work on with ease. I just can't figure out why its throwing knives, and that's pretty important from a liability standpoint. When I helped them put the knives in at the shop, I guarantee you I checked and rechecked that they were tight. Hell, it was working for me fine when I took it in, with the insert for one knife and wedge pretty messed up ( not as much friction or surface contact between knife and wedge and insert as the others). So when they fixed that insert somewhat, and had to repair another after the first mishap, what changed, I wonder? The drum didn't sound unbalanced (keep in mind these knives are within .005 inches from contact with the anvil), and how would one loosen up now if not before?

Either the drum and anvil are changing clearance now at full RPM's or the knives are moving. There can be no other explanation IMO. But how can I know or ever be trustworthy of this machine? It chips so fast when it works right its like being in love with the wrong woman at the wrong time and risking everything for it when something else might be more practical, though less feasible.

Plus the knives are set at such an angle (about 45 degrees) that all that force puts a virtually zero force on them to loosen up. Its just beyond me.

Thanks again for your comments.

Nathan Priest


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## a_lopa (Jun 1, 2005)

are the knives tappered?fatter at the bottom?


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## priest (Jun 1, 2005)

The knives themselves are flat. The wedges are tapered, fatter at the top. But they are not set in the drum perpendicularly, but at a 45 degree angle, so that they have less tendency to fly out if all else fails. And the wedges are held in by two stout bolts into the drum, and the knives are held in by a button that inserts into each wedge, and by a hopefully large amount if friction between them, the wedges, and the inside of the insert into the drum.


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## Stumper (Jun 1, 2005)

.005 clearance.???????????????????

5 Thousandths seems awfully close. Has the anvil been cut or impacted? I think that most people set the clearsnce at .030. Eric gets superior performance at .010-.015. That tight of tolerance then raises the question of how the knives were set as well. Are you followings Mitts' instructions?( the right place to start).


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## darkstar (Jun 1, 2005)

id be wanting my money back ...


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## juststumps (Jun 1, 2005)

spacemule said:


> You don't hold it against a shop to promise a certain job to be done in a certain time frame, charge $3000, and then have their work be a complete failure? If they couldn't do the work, they should have said so. If M&M wouldn't work on it, these guys shouldn't have either, no? I don't think arguing your point that way helps the shop any. These guys are paid good money to work on stuff and give an accurate opinion--they're professionals. Seems open and shut to me.





no, i wouldn't blame the shop..they did what the customer asked them to do. did their work cause the failure,or was it a already existing flaw in the machine??? should the shop send all the parts out to a metals lab??? have everything x-rayed,magna fluxed, etc??? like my nieghbor used to do for the millitary, on jet engine parts.. and hit him with a $5000 bill, for the testing to tell him, it's shot??? or do they try to fix it??? i don't know if i would even want to let anyone other than the factory,, or dealer,, mess with a drum ,,,in the first place....something that heavy, spining that fast,,with detachtable parts...changing blades is one thing,,but the drum was already torched...

sort of like taking your 72 dodge dart with 190k to the garage, after it fails emisions..you take it to the garage, tell them to tune it up...it costs you $300..you go back to the inspection station, and fails...was it the garage's fault??? or, is it that you don't know when to retire a machine????

it's a hard lesson to learn...there is a reason it is cheap... nothing is really free....it will all cost you in the end... been there,, done that...and i try not to do it anymore..


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## begleytree (Jun 2, 2005)

Sounds like you're setting the blades too close, and what's the possibility of your bolts (holding the wedge/blades) stretching?
The way M&M blades go in, since you have to place the blade on the wedge, with the 1/2" dowell into the blade, then place it into the drum and torque it all down, they are very hard to get to come out without contact. they take what, an 5/8 allen head socket to tighten?
All I can figure is, too close -blades to cutter bar, bolts stretching on the wedges, allowing the .005 clearance to go to zero, the wedge bolt threads in the drum itself boggered, giving a false torque reading, or you're bottoming into new weld, and not the hardened drum. You need to open the blade to cutter bar clearance to 1/8", around .0125, IMO.
You're obviously making contact- blades to cutter bar, breaking the blades on each side of the dowel, then the bottom of the blade is comming out too, giving the 3 pieces. that or breaking off the sharpened end, and splitting down the middle around the dowel. Prob didn't do the drum pocket much good, prob bent it out and upward, allowing a little open space at the top of the wedge. That doesn't bother me too much, as I've seen a woodchuck quad 9 drum throw a blade exactly the same way, and was used after that for hundreds of hours with no problems.
Check that cutter bar for signs of blade strike too.
-Ralph


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## NeTree (Jun 2, 2005)

juststumps...

Why wouldn't a "machine shop" already have magnaflux/etc on hand anyways?


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## spacemule (Jun 2, 2005)

juststumps said:


> no, i wouldn't blame the shop..they did what the customer asked them to do. did their work cause the failure,or was it a already existing flaw in the machine???


The point is that this was a professional place that told him what they could do and then failed to do it. In any kind of business dealing with equipment the average person doens't work on, the provider of the service has an obligation to tell the customer if the repairs are not likely to work and give an accurate estimate. The customer is not the expert--the machine shop is supposed to be. From priest's words, this guy misled him about his chipper repair experience. This repair came out to 3 times his high-end estimate, and didn't work. That is not acceptable in any profession. You act as if M&M not working on it is a bad thing, that the shop did good to work on it. If the thing was irreparable, why did the shop work on it? Why was it good for the shop to follow impossible instructions--according to your assesment? 

If a customer brings a gas tank into a machine shop and instructs the welder to cut into the tank and weld on a new bracket, the welder follows the instructions, and the tank is destroyed from the resultant explosion (along with the welder), who is responsible? Should not the welder, who is the professional, be held fiscally and morally responsible for following the customer's wishes even though they were reckless? The professional service provider is supposed to be the one with the knowledge, not the other way around. If everyone were an expert, there would be no service based businesses.


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## NeTree (Jun 2, 2005)

Mule... ain't that why we don't top trees?


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## Lumberjack (Jun 2, 2005)

Mule made some good points, as did Eric.

Magnaflux aint that exspensive is it Eric? Hell just some dyed powered iron and a stout magnet (over simplified).

The shop is responsible. Same way that a company is resonsible for topping a tree, and a contractor for digging a trench 6' from a 4.5'DBH oak. Both damaged the tree beyond repair. Both are responsible. The shop is responsible for their work.


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## NeTree (Jun 2, 2005)

No, MagnaFlux is pretty cheap. And yeah, that's basically it. Most forms use an aerosol powder and a big electromagnet.

I do agree with Mule, and I think Ralph is on the right track.


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## priest (Jun 3, 2005)

Sorry for the lack of response to all the good comments. Busy season is on. 

I was mistaken the last time about the .005 inches-I was a few beers into a case that night. They actually or at least said they set them to within .005 inches of .030 inches, which they said were manufacturer's specs. In the machine shop guys words when I dropped the thing off he said "you want them so close they're are just ???? near clicking the anvil". Yeah, they clicked it all right. 

I think you all are right about them being set too close. And as far as tightening the bolts, it says on the underside of the lid to tighten to 125-150 ft-lbs. When I was around that day they never put a torque wrench on them-just tightened them tell they were tight. I should have asked them about that too, I just didn't think about it at the time. 

But when I'm out doing whatever it is we arborists do I don't expect the client to think of everything for me, I don't generally have to borrow their tools, and I stick to my initial estimate no matter how ugly it gets. 

One time when I first started the business I severely underbid a huge Siberian Elm removal that was over a book store, neighboring house, the intersection of three fences, three different sets of powerlines, cable wires, and telephone wires. I didn't have the equipment or the expertise or the manpower to do the job. I bid it at $625. It took four days. Paid a guy $60 to repair the hole I put in the roof of the house. I ate the loss, and the guy was forever grateful for it. He is now one of my good clients. Just finished a job for him yesterday, and he refers me every chance he has.

It seems to me that if you treat people fairly, you become the exception to the rule and pretty soon your phone won't quit ringing and everybody wins.

Thanks for taking the time for all the great advice. This site is an outstanding resource and I've been really impressed.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 3, 2005)

I can't believe an AS member drinks beer. I'm so disappointed!!!


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## priest (Jun 3, 2005)

Ummm......beeeeer


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## Stumper (Jun 3, 2005)

priest said:


> I think you all are right about them being set too close. And as far as tightening the bolts, it says on the underside of the lid to tighten to 125-150 ft-lbs. When I was around that day they never put a torque wrench on them-just tightened them tell they were tight. I should have asked them about that too, I just didn't think about it at the time.



Great flaming hemorroids! A machine shop that tightens high torque spec bolts " just till they are tight". My calibrated elbow works pretty good to gauge 18-22 ft lbs for spark plugs. There is a rule of thumb that says 90 ft lbs is about all the average man can get with a standard ratchet handle (hardly precise but at least a ballpark figure) Any machine shop that doesn't torque 125 torque speced bolts to specs with a proper measuring device is criminally negligent!


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## priest (Jun 3, 2005)

Yeah that place sucks.

Since we've dwelled on it for so long I guess I could throw some pictures of the chipper on here (first time I've tried this, so I hope I do it right). I'll go take a picture of the holes where the knife fragments ejected right now before it gets too dark. You will cringe.


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## Lawn Masters (Jun 3, 2005)

All I can say about that is HOLY CRAP! I'm amazed the knives didnt hit the engine block, or anyone standing within 200' of that thing. otherwise it looks nice. probably a new drum, and some metal welded over the holes in the chute, and you'll be in buisness. and dont set the knives so close next time.


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## priest (Jun 3, 2005)

I wonder how many benjamins for a new drum. I've talked to one manufacturer--I'll call him Monday and find out. The engine runs great and I've put so much into that darn thing (new engine housing, new alternator, new bulldog jack and safety chains, balancing weights, coat after coat of white primer and paint, new alternator, new gauges, one new tire, new bearings, two sets of knives, and on and on). 

If I can't get it fixed I might be looking to sell it real soon. It chips like a beast when its not flying apart. 15 foot limb, six inch diameter, chunk it in, WAAAAAA, 1.5 seconds and it's vaporized.

BTW, I've also got a bunch of beat up chipper knives available. They make a great trot line weight and are on sale now for five bucks a pop. 

Warning: knives can be dangerous at high velocities. 

Heres a picture of the drum for those of you have been wondering what it looks like. And a picture of the knife/wedge assembly.


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## Lumberjack (Jun 3, 2005)

For 2k bucks I woulda used new bolts on the teeth. Cheap insurance there.

Cant see too much, or know what I am lookin for, but the drum doesnt look that bad to me.


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## Lawn Masters (Jun 3, 2005)

2nd pic is too big and too blurry to distinguish anything.


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## NWCS (Jun 3, 2005)

i have never run or worked on a chipper before.. but that drum looks JUNK to me! lots of visible damage in the pic, and i bet a LOT more. replace the drum and anvil. inspect all bearings, check for runout, run it good  id check all the structural mounts too, see if a weld is broke somewhere that a bearing may bolt to.. with a new drum/anvil and adjusted to factory spec i cant see how it would throw a knife.. with that drum in it now, yep i can see it tossing them. dump that drum asap. heck even if you sell it id still throw the drum away and sell it needing a drum..


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## Lumberjack (Jun 3, 2005)

I think its a bit harsh. I dont see huge damage on it, but I am not familar with the make/model. It is a drum that chips would after all, some damage is normal. There are some marks that are curious to figure out if its a mark or missing metal, but a pic wont show that well, in person would.

I default to the powers at be who know these chippers and whats norm.


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## priest (Jun 3, 2005)

There are numerous "divets" in the drum from it actually striking a loose anvil in one or more of its several accidents. None dip in more than 1/8 inch. I to would have to let the experts of M $ M chippers comment on whether or not that is a significant amount of material. But I do know it was working good with the drum in that condition, however it was out of balance. Now that the machine place balanced the drum (which I think that may be the one thing they actually did accomplish besides replacing the bearings), I would think that would compensate for any deficiencies in performance produced by the divets. 
All I know is that I want to survive every tree I chip. Is that too much to ask?


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## PWB (Jun 5, 2005)

Nope!As for coming good for the damage/repair, just common sense if these guys want your business or anyone else's. Most of my tree work is at work (municipal government) but my "beer and potato chip money" comes from an old road grader I do parking lots, driveways, horse tracks etc. with. Broke a catch basin last year first time I worked for a customer. (Got too close). Hired a backhoe operator that was working for the same guy, picked up a basin at the plant that makes them five minutes away and had it repaired before I finished the grading job. Was back that fall, and I've had several good referals in the area because of it. Just good business!


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## darkstar (Jun 5, 2005)

you couldnt pay me a 1000 an hour to work near that machine


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## Grizzly (Sep 8, 2006)

priest said:


> Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I agree with you that the shop did not fulfill its duties, and I also agree with TreeCo that I need to just keep every one out of harms way from here on out, scrap this chipper, and buy a better one. I stopped payment on the check today and plan to talk to a lawyer in the morning and then call the machine guy.
> 
> Another consideration is that when I first contacted this machine guy and asked him if he knew how to work on chippers, he said "Oh yeah, I've worked on plenty of chippers". And then when I took it to him he told me what he thought needed to be done to make it safe, said it could be done, and told me he would charge me $50 an hour for HIS labor, which he said could get expensive if things did not go smoothly. He said it could take 10 hours, or it could take as much as 20 hours. He threw out the highball number of $1000.
> 
> ...



52 hours?!!!!
Did you leave it there for a week?
If they clam to be a machine shop, that should have not happened. If any thing you could go to the manufacture and have them send a new knife set and at least set it straighter then those shop rats could have.


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## B-Edwards (Sep 8, 2006)

The machine doesnt need criticized The machine shop owner does if everything you said is accurate . For 2k i cant see why it didnt work like it should. Talk to him before you threatin him with legal action ,print our replies and show him what others think but make sure you've told us the everything like it happened. I would be mad in a big way if i were you.


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## Toddppm (Sep 8, 2006)

Uhhh, Over a year old thread. Can't believe I missed this one though, sounds all too familiar.

I took my old Asplundh to a machine shop to get the stuck height adjustment bolts out, you know those 3"-4 long ones? I think there were 4 or 5 ? A week later they tried to charge me $1200 bux I actually drove into their back yard where it was and was about to hook it up and drive off before one of the guys talked me out of it. Almost went to jail that day. 
They never let me know it was going to be that huge of a problem, seems like they also put their most inexperienced jackass on my machine. I ended up talking them down in price a couple hundred too. When I got it home I had to re-tap every one they worked on. 


Oh well, bringing back bad memories Hope it worked out in the end for Priest.


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## Grizzly (Sep 8, 2006)

A good deal can brake the bank.
If you want a reliable chipper, buy it new or almost new. Those old chippers have a dark side that can totally screw your whole day. Nothing like having to tow a broken chipper with a load of unchipped brush in your truck.


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