# How the heck do you pay the bills, down there?



## fraidofheights (Jun 16, 2012)

Up a tree? Math error means bargain for city | The Journal Gazette

Less than a hundred dollar per trees, and the guy's looks like a bit of a chunker, so how the heck is he ripping up and down trees that quick to make it profitable? 

Now, I'm really new to the business, but even here in Canada we don't touch a removal for under five hundred bucks. Is it the illegal immigrant thing, that makes it possible for people to work that cheap?

We've got some issues in the City with companies bringing in Philipino groundman, but they're paid a decent wage (usually starting at 14.00 per hour plus bonuses) and mostly they work for the crappiest tree company in the City. Crappy trucks. Boulevard trimming. All boom work.

Anyway, just curious. Sheesh.


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## mattfr12 (Jun 16, 2012)

fraidofheights said:


> Up a tree? Math error means bargain for city | The Journal Gazette
> 
> Less than a hundred dollar per trees, and the guy's looks like a bit of a chunker, so how the heck is he ripping up and down trees that quick to make it profitable?
> 
> ...



that is super low 100$ per tree even if you got 5 a day done that would still suck. he needs a better calcaulator or accountant. the difference between 500k and 1mil is pretty noticable on paper. i could see 400-600 per tree. on a city tree contract thats pretty common.


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## Kottonwood (Jun 16, 2012)

$586,000/4500 = ~130 per tree.

In order to make money on that you would have to be doing something ridiculously profitable with the wood and mulch.


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## VA-Sawyer (Jun 16, 2012)

4500 trees / 200 working days per year ( 1 year contract ) means he will need to do 22.5 trees per day, unless he works on Sat as well. Might be possible with a big enough chipper if he doesn't have to mess with firewood. I think they are all street trees, so no hauling of brush. Just drop, chip, and maybe load logs to sell to a mill. If he can sell the chips too, he might make $3000 to 3500 per day total. Not great, but should pay the bills, if his equipment holds up. His correct bid would have been worth another $1500 per day. Still not great, but a lot better than the thin ice he is on now.

Bet he will be skinny as a rail this time next year!

Rick

PS Patriot Tree posted while I was typing.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 16, 2012)

Don't hate me, but I'll take trees down for less then $100. Helps to have almost no overhead and a signed and dated waiver from the homeowner that they won't sue me.

Sod Breaker


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 16, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> Don't hate me, but I'll take trees down for less then $100. Helps to have almost no overhead and a signed and dated waiver from the homeowner that they won't sue me.
> 
> Sod Breaker



I'm confused, how does the waiver save you $$?


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## husabud (Jun 16, 2012)

​


Garden Of Eden said:


> I'm confused, how does the waiver save you $$?




If you don't have ins and break all kinds of Shiite up.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 16, 2012)

husabud said:


> ​
> 
> If you don't have ins and break all kinds of Shiite up.



Lol. Was hoping for a similar response from him. Wonder if he knows that won't help all that much. 

Ehhh.

Jeff


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## HappyTreesLLC (Jun 16, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> 4500 trees / 200 working days per year ( 1 year contract ) means he will need to do 22.5 trees per day....


 Hey guys,
I am working with state and municipalities. You all thinking of tree as BIG tree. You need to dig into definition of tree accepted in town hall. I believe most of them (town/city hall) definition of tree is 8ft tall AND 2inch diameter or larger. So if you take this to count the picture is better.
From my own experience:
I done "per tree removal" for one town. Lucky me town official was with me to conform quantity. The price was $75 per tree. So I done like 50. Send bill. They paid. Next time they offer me work on "time" basis. LOL.
Sure, $250 per hour - bucket truck, chip truck, Vermeer BC1800XL, 3 guys.
Why not?

So, does this explanation make some sense?


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## mattfr12 (Jun 16, 2012)

The trees all being small is unlikely tho when everyone else is bidding double or triple. not to many weekend warriors can get contracts like that. to much paperwork and 4th hand machinery wouldn't make it through thousands of trees. I've bid as low as 400$ per tree for large trees but was able to knock off a lot of them per day. 

400$ per tree was safety pruning a few thousand street trees. and removing a little under 80. during the winter we combined forces with another company and had up to 5 buckets per day on one street. we where bringing in a little over 5g's a day gross. so we profited around 2k a day per company. but it was steady work for months.


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## arborjockey (Jun 17, 2012)

Ahh small street trees. Some 1 cut 1 kill. Chop drop chip? City started taking bids then the word got out its a 1.5 mil. contract. So the local tree dudes had a meeting and put bids in for 1.2 and 1.3. All but 1 tree dude who went home and figured it out on paper. Maybe tis dude has 2 18 wheelers with cranes to load em' and a tub grinder at the house. Dude could be slamming 250 trees a day. 

At barttlett we paid a guy something like 15-18k every 3 months to come to our yard and hall off our green waste. Chips, stumps and all. 4 -18 wheelers and a 7 yard loader made it disappear in 4 hours. Sound spendy but they made lots of $ out of that office.


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## HappyTreesLLC (Jun 18, 2012)

Other words it is doable if you know area(scope of work), have right equipment or friends with equipment and work force.
Also good to have place to sale all this biomass or to get rid of it quick.

Usually when I work for town they allow me to pile chips on town's DPW asphalted place. Then I order few semis and town load them with loader. Semis going to place where I sale chips and after paying drivers I getting some money as well. Not much but "some" better then nothing and MUCH better then to pay for removal.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 18, 2012)

HappyTreesLLC said:


> Other words it is doable if you know area(scope of work), have right equipment or friends with equipment and work force.
> Also good to have place to sale all this biomass or to get rid of it quick.
> 
> Usually when I work for town they allow me to pile chips on town's DPW asphalted place. Then I order few semis and town load them with loader. Semis going to place where I sale chips and after paying drivers I getting some money as well. Not much but "some" better then nothing and MUCH better then to pay for removal.



Too funny!
What channel are you on? LOL!
Jeff


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## arborjockey (Jun 19, 2012)

Jeff,
Was it the


> friends with equipment


 

Watch 3\4 end up being small pear trees


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I'm confused, how does the waiver save you $$?



It means that the home over acknowledges that if he wants someone with ins. he can pay the going rate of 10X an hour more


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## Kottonwood (Jun 19, 2012)

there is no ####ing way the rate is ten times higher. What do you charge? What do you bring to the table? Let's say an eighteen inch chipper, dump, wood trailer, skid steer, and a three man crew. I would be at 75-90 a man hour. You workin' for 7.50 an hour and bringin' that to the table????? ......doubt it


Gotta neg rep ya for that one. buy some ####ing insurance it ain't expensive..... workers comp is, but if you do all the work yourself you don't need that.


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## lxt (Jun 19, 2012)

with a name like sodbreaker I can only think you should stick to grass cutting & if you think a HO signing a waiver eliminates you from responsibility think again!!!

Maybe the home owner should have you sign a waiver so if you get hurt he`s not liable, Jack wagons down my way would do what you are saying to do & then when the one hack got hurt he tried to sue the hO`s insurance company.....what a mess & guess what?

It was ruled that the "hack" (similar to you) solicited business & therefore was legally bound to carry certain insurances & that the waiver was an illegal attempt to try to negate his responsibilities as a business.........does the term "Fraudulent business practices" mean anything & if not you are a serious Hack!!!



LXT...........


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> It means that the home over acknowledges that if he wants someone with ins. he can pay the going rate of 10X an hour more



So you are a cheap hack and your customer's are dumb homeowner's. Got it.
Jeff


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 19, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> So you are a cheap hack and your customer's are dumb homeowner's. Got it.
> Jeff



I agree. I hate when people advertise they are the cheapest in town. It means they are worth less than everyone else. Price matching is one thing, if its apples to apples. 

Jeff


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> there is no ####ing way the rate is ten times higher. What do you charge? What do you bring to the table? Let's say an eighteen inch chipper, dump, wood trailer, skid steer, and a three man crew. I would be at 75-90 a man hour. You workin' for 7.50 an hour and bringin' that to the table????? ......doubt it
> 
> 
> Gotta neg rep ya for that one. buy some ####ing insurance it ain't expensive..... workers comp is, but if you do all the work yourself you don't need that.



I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way(on their dime) just to cut down a couple of trees.

Sod Breaker

ETA:

I will also say that for a "Hack" which one of us gets more business? I have looked into insurance but then I would raise my rates to compensate and HO would hire the next "Hack." 

But the thing that bothers most people including the ones who gave a neg rep point is that I cut into their market above all else. I've seen the same in just about every trade.


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## Gologit (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way just to cut down a couple of trees.
> 
> Sod Breaker



Do you have insurance or not?


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## mattfr12 (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way just to cut down a couple of trees.
> 
> Sod Breaker
> 
> ...



Most people get nervous when all you show up with is a pickup truck with the tail pipe held on with Kentucky chrome. Don't get caught without ins it's a big time offense waiver or not. We would be in the higher end of pricing on residential I'm guessing never really compared. And we get jobs over the low ballers left and right. I don't bid any job to be the cheapest but to have enough $$ to do the work safely without trying to rush. Big equipment will get you big jobs. People feel safer? I guess. 


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?j0ebzq


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> Most people get nervous when all you show up with is a pickup truck with the tail pipe held on with Kentucky chrome. Don't get caught without ins it's a big time offense waiver or not. We would be in the higher end of pricing on residential I'm guessing never really compared. And we get jobs over the low ballers left and right. I don't bid any job to be the cheapest but to have enough $$ to do the work safely without trying to rush. Big equipment will get you big jobs. People feel safer? I guess.
> 
> 
> ---
> I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?j0ebzq



They also get nervous about huge estimates.

To answer the above, most of my jobs don't require insurance becuase the contract with the homeowner is worded in a way that subjects me to a 1040 rather then a 1099. For example my last contract was clearing 2 1/2 miles of new fence line for a farmer and becuase of the large scale of the project and the wording of the contract it would have been tax fraud for him to file a 1099 on me because I was working for him, NOT for myself as an independent contractor.
I have always been an employee of the homeowner when ever I have worked a job and there fore don't need my own policy.

Sod Breaker


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way just to cut down a couple of trees.
> 
> Sod Breaker



Might change my name to tree-poet.
I got to find a word a word that rhyme's with 'Idoit',
Jeff


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## husabud (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way(on their dime) just to cut down a couple of trees.
> 
> Sod Breaker
> 
> ...



You are not and will never be a a cut into my market. There are plenty of You out there and that is fine for some folks, but those who want quality work done on their property will hire me or one of my true competitors to insure a proper job is done on schedule with no problems. 
Any bozo can climb a ladder and "Break sod". Those of us who are professionals and carry the right certs and Ins will always make money, and piles more than you folk.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

Then why are you taking such offense becuase of me?

ETA: If I don't cut into your market then why does it matter? Because quite frankly I agree with you. You deal with the jobs for rich homeowners and probably local govt. (Just a guess on the last one). I work for the farmers and small home owners who want some work done and don't have an infinite amount of money to spend on the project. 

But I don't think it's that simple.


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## husabud (Jun 19, 2012)

You agree, I agree, I do not care about you or your type. I am a fully insured tree care company and you, as it sounds, are not. You are of no importance or threat to me. Your $20,000/yr is my $whatever you think you think it is/yr. More power to ya.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

husabud said:


> You agree, I agree, I do not care about you or your type. I am a fully insured tree care company and you, as it sounds, are not. You are of no importance or threat to me. Your $20,000/yr is my $whatever you think you think it is/yr. More power to ya.



You did not answer my question.


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## pdqdl (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> They also get nervous about huge estimates.
> 
> To answer the above, most of my jobs don't require insurance becuase the contract with the homeowner is worded in a way that subjects me to a 1040 rather then a 1099. For example my last contract was clearing 2 1/2 miles of new fence line for a farmer and becuase of the large scale of the project and the wording of the contract it would have been tax fraud for him to file a 1099 on me because I was working for him, NOT for myself as an independent contractor.
> I have always been an employee of the homeowner when ever I have worked a job and there fore don't need my own policy.
> ...



You are probably a bigger hack at interpreting law than you are at doing tree work. Don't invite the IRS to check your contract out, 'cause it won't hold water.

Lots of employers try doing the reverse of that scheme, it doesn't work either.


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## no tree to big (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way(on their dime) just to cut down a couple of trees.
> 
> Sod Breaker
> 
> ...



there is a difference between a HACK, side jobber and an uninsured tree service... a hack works for peanuts has no equipment and most cases should not be allowed to touch a chainsaw , an "uninsured tree service" charges normal rates, has equipment, and would be a legit co. as soon as they bought a policy(or close). a side jobber does a few jobs here and there for full or darn near full price, at least half not 12/hr or whatever you charge. may have some equipment and has the knowledge to do the work may or may not have insurance. you in my book are a hack

I've cut trees for less then a hundo before too they were also very small trees that I cut while I was doing the estimate.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 19, 2012)

So, I'll just say this, if you put a sign out front, cats for free, you'll never get rid of them. If you charge $20/cat, you'll never have enough. 

Basically, if you charge for your target market, you'll get your target market. Anyone been in the game for more than a decade care to correct me, I'm open to new ideas. Always willing to learn. 

Anyway. I'm not sure he's actually competing with anyone. Lol maybe himself? 

Jeff, the pretty one...


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## mattfr12 (Jun 19, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> You are probably a bigger hack at interpreting law than you are at doing tree work. Don't invite the IRS to check your contract out, 'cause it won't hold water.
> 
> Lots of employers try doing the reverse of that scheme, it doesn't work either.



O it's definitely not legal. If it was 90% of the people on here are spending way to much money on ins and comp. if something happens lawyers tear right through home written contracts. You risk your personal assets and if you have a family their well being. But it's your choice.

If I was doing what he was I wouldn't be posting about it on the Internet while stirring up these guys steam pot.

---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?hqmain


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## Kottonwood (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I figured someone who have a fit over my remark. If should run across a home owner whose project requires the above mentioned equipment I'll send them your way. In all likely hood they would pay you $100/hour ($10 more then you ask for) Having said that. Most the people I work for would prefer not have an army of machines show up at the end of their drive way(on their dime) just to cut down a couple of trees.
> 
> Sod Breaker
> 
> ...



Honestly I doubt you could beat my prices on the small jobs too. Unless it is just pruning small trees..... then I could really give a damn if you are uninsured. But if you are cutting down trees at peoples houses it is more efficient with equipment and you need insurance. In town my minimum is $75, you doing less than that a day? How do you make a living?


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## Kottonwood (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> Then why are you taking such offense becuase of me?
> 
> ETA: If I don't cut into your market then why does it matter? Because quite frankly I agree with you. You deal with the jobs for rich homeowners and probably local govt. (Just a guess on the last one). I work for the farmers and small home owners who want some work done and don't have an infinite amount of money to spend on the project.
> 
> But I don't think it's that simple.



We just did a land clearing job. It took three days and I did it at fifty a man hour. We had just a chipper and a skid steer on site..... got a lot of work done cheap. I still highly doubt you could have done the same thing for cheaper.

Are you bringing no equipment with you?


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## jmeritt (Jun 19, 2012)

why are all of his AAAA's red?


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> We just did a land clearing job. It took three days and I did it at fifty a man hour. We had just a chipper and a skid steer on site..... got a lot of work done cheap. I still highly doubt you could have done the same thing for cheaper.
> 
> Are you bringing no equipment with you?



depends who I work for sometimes sometimes not.

Seems funny everbody getting worked up over a guy who is supposedly not cutting into their profits. I wonder.....


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## husabud (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> You did not answer my question.



Ok let me rephrase it. I am not offended by your uninsured work habits or your work ethics. You will never be a threat to me even if I packed all my gear up and moved to your neighborhood. We would probably drink beers together at the same bar and I would be happy to pass on the work I do not care to do for those who do not appreciate 24 yrs experience . As I have always said to any customer, "Price is only a consideration if value is not "


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> You are probably a bigger hack at interpreting law than you are at doing tree work. Don't invite the IRS to check your contract out, 'cause it won't hold water.
> 
> Lots of employers try doing the reverse of that scheme, it doesn't work either.



Really that's kind of funny because they have for the last two years. And my Tax preparer and company etc.,. Kind of funny your making remarks about a contract you've never seen. I've got a truck I'll sell you. I'd PM you a pic but you've already seen it through the same crystal ball that you looked at my labor contract through.... My point exactly...

Sod Breaker


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## Kottonwood (Jun 19, 2012)

We are worked up cuz you aren't carrying insurance. You are a cheap ass. You can't afford eight hundred dollars a year to cover your customers from any mishaps. If you are not doing tree work near houses or anything of value and you get someone to sign off on it fine..... but what are you doing on an Arborist forum?


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> depends who I work for sometimes sometimes not.
> 
> Seems funny everbody getting worked up over a guy who is supposedly not cutting into their profits. I wonder.....



Try and keep up, I'll go slow. You say your customers won't pay the added cost you would charge for ins. all of our customers do pay the added cost. Thus, distinctly separating our two customer pools. According to your own logic, you are not competing. Assume your assumption that your customers won't pay the added cost is wrong. Now, our customer pools are the same, now, you're only cheating yourself by not charging what the market will bear. So even still, in the end, you're wrong.

Oh, and who ever said $800 for insurance, you're nuts, my liability was like $925 for 2mill. Haha. Close enough though. Lol

Jeff


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> We are worked up cuz you aren't carrying insurance. You are a cheap ass. You can't afford eight hundred dollars a year to cover your customers from any mishaps. If you are not doing tree work near houses or anything of value and you get someone to sign off on it fine..... but what are you doing on an Arborist forum?



Seemed like a good place to learn about chainsaws and the related. 

If I run across a situtation that I don't want to deal with or don't have the equipment to do right, I'll refer the H.O. to someone with ins. and experience, etc. And the pro that gets the contract can put all of that to good use. But if all a person wants is some random tree cut down, it's not rocket science. I also doubt the HO would pay you or any other pro full rate to cut a winter's worth of wood. My guess is that they would sell the stove and buy fuel oil first.

Sod Breaker


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> I'd PM you a pic but you've already seen it through the same crystal ball that you looked at my labor contract through.... My point exactly...
> 
> Sod Breaker



Good point, post it so we can see what a genius you really are. Prove us wrong.

Jeff


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## Kottonwood (Jun 19, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Try and keep up, I'll go slow. You say your customers won't pay the added cost you would charge for ins. all of our customers do pay the added cost. Thus, distinctly separating our two customer pools. According to your own logic, you are not competing. Assume your assumption that your customers won't pay the added cost is wrong. Now, our customer pools are the same, now, you're only cheating yourself by not charging what the market will bear. So even still, in the end, you're wrong.
> 
> Oh, and who ever said $800 for insurance, you're nuts, my liability was like $925 for 2mill. Haha. Close enough though. Lol
> 
> Jeff



My first year as a contract climber I paid 800 for 1 mil (it wasn't that long ago)


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## sodbreaker (Jun 19, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> . Assume your assumption that your customers won't pay the added cost is wrong.



Why put wear and tear on my own equipment if the customer provides it for me at no charge?


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 19, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> Why put wear and tear on my own equipment if the customer provides it for me at no charge?



Just when I thought the show was over, an encore. You use HO equipment?? Wow, very nice play.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 19, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> My first year as a contract climber I paid 800 for 1 mil (it wasn't that long ago)



Nice to know rates are comparable. You weren't far off, I just renewed mine June 1st. Premium dropped 12 cents. Lol.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 20, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Just when I thought the show was over, an encore. You use HO equipment?? Wow, very nice play.



best part of that is it adds to the 1040/1099 deal and further more why again am I buying ins. when I am an employee of the HO? I must be I'm using his equipment. If the HO tells me when to show up and to use his equip. tell me how I'm not the HO's employee? I'm bored and need enterainment. But if I am the HO employee why again do I need ins.?


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## mattfr12 (Jun 20, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> best part of that is it adds to the 1040/1099 deal and further more why again am I buying ins. when I am an employee of the HO? I must be I'm using his equipment. If the HO tells me when to show up and to use his equip. tell me how I'm not the HO's employee? I'm bored and need enterainment. But if I am the HO employee why again do I need ins.?



It can't work like that then the HO would have to be a registered business and carry insurance and comp. its illegal in to many ways. but whatever works for me. someone has to be able to accept liability if someone gets hurt. jail time is what you face I'm cool with it if you are. I'm just stating the risks involved so your aware. if you want to continue to do it go ahead.

i just got done working for edge worth borough here and before you even start a saw down there you have to fax them your insurance and comp to the city manager. you can't say I'm an employee for the HO it just can't work like that.


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## pdqdl (Jun 20, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> Really that's kind of funny because they have for the last two years. And my Tax preparer and company etc.,. Kind of funny your making remarks about a contract you've never seen. ...
> 
> Sod Breaker



In addition to being a hack lawyer wannabe and a hack tree service, you are displaying some remarkably poor debate skills. I suggest that the IRS won't care for your business practices, and you respond by telling me they have been bugging you for two years.

Do you really think that proves your point? If the IRS comes knocking two years in a row, it's a sure thing they don't approve of your business practices.

BTW: I have never been audited, and I don't need to knock on wood.


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## mattfr12 (Jun 20, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> In addition to being a hack lawyer wannabe and a hack tree service, you are displaying some remarkably poor debate skills. I suggest that the IRS won't care for you business practices, and you respond by telling me they have been bugging you for two years.
> 
> Do you really think that proves your point? If the IRS comes knocking two years in a row, it's a sure thing they don't approve of your business practices.
> 
> BTW: I have never been audited, and I don't need to knock on wood.



its so backwards its mind boggling i wouldn't even know where to begin. I've really never heard this one before. because actually we are all employed by the HO. But they can't cover us? if you tear someones house up you really think their gonna just be good with it? hold harmless agreements are for suckers, don't believe its gonna keep you safe.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 20, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> In addition to being a hack lawyer wannabe and a hack tree service, you are displaying some remarkably poor debate skills. I suggest that the IRS won't care for your business practices, and you respond by telling me they have been bugging you for two years.
> 
> Do you really think that proves your point? If the IRS comes knocking two years in a row, it's a sure thing they don't approve of your business practices.
> 
> BTW: I have never been audited, and I don't need to knock on wood.



Fine you got me. I forgot to insert a word where it should have been. I quess you got me. That just proves everything I quess. (/sarcasm)

I just want to know where the law says I need insurance to be employed by someone. Obviously if I'm self-employed it's implied. But if I'm employed by someone and something happens it's his insurance, lisence on the line. But acording to certian ones here I don't know anything about law. So I need to get some ins. next time I put in a job app @ waly-world


mattfr12 I truely thought Minn. was bad...

Incidently, This spring the guy I was working with got his leg caught between the bucket and frame of a skidloader. The hospital bill WAS covered by the employer's farm ins. becuase he (and me) were employees of the farm.


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## pdqdl (Jun 20, 2012)

I think he is pursuing the "employee" status so that he can avoid 1099 reporting by his customers. Undoubtedly, this is done for some crazed notion that somehow he will come out ahead on taxes. Unless he is working for businesses, the customers would not be sending any notices of any sort, so I don't see the point.

If the customers are legitimate businesses, claiming to be an employee and getting a 1040 at the end of the year adds to their costs by piling on worker's comp, matching FiCA payments, unemployment, and all the other payroll associated expenses.

The reason he is working so cheap and using their equipment is because he can't afford to buy any equipment. Sod buster is just being a chump; the real villain will be the businesses that are working him at sod-buster rates, listing him on their worker's comp policy as some non-tree related employee, and getting tree work done at stupidly cheap rates.

Sod buddy, you got so much to learn. 

I'll give you a quick, cheap lesson on how to cheat the IRS and beat taxes and insurance:

1. Start working for cash, don't report it.
2. Quit writing or signing any contracts. Even when they are written by a lawyer, it will never hold up unless you pay more for a lawyer to defend it than you make in a year. Legal recourse is NO protection whatsoever for the poor.
3. Quit denying that you are a "business" you MORON! Let folks that don't want to give you cash send you a 1099. In the meanwhile, you can deduct all your fuel and equipment expenses, a portion of your home/business operating expense, your vehicle expenses, your phone bill...practically everything you spend money on.

4. ...What the heck. Anybody that claims to be working for stupidly cheap, talking customers into claiming the expense as employee wages, signing contracts to enforce that position, and having a tax preparer defend them from two years of IRS investigations is just TROLLING!

Cmon, sodbuster. Admit it. 

_*You just like yanking everybody's chain, don't you?*_


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## sodbreaker (Jun 20, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I think he is pursuing the "employee" status so that he can avoid 1099 reporting by his customers. Undoubtedly, this is done for some crazed notion that somehow he will come out ahead on taxes. Unless he is working for businesses, the customers would not be sending any notices of any sort, so I don't see the point.
> 
> If the customers are legitimate businesses, claiming to be an employee and getting a 1040 at the end of the year adds to their costs by piling on worker's comp, matching FiCA payments, unemployment, and all the other payroll associated expenses.
> 
> ...



Aww just borrow that crystal ball from crystal ball what-his-name. It knows everything.

I never said I wasn't a business. I said on paper I only work for businesses. But then doesn't a business have to have a name of some sort? It's funny that people can judge so much based on so little information.

One more thing, A open question for the 'pros" Do you require your employees to carry their own ins.? Didn't think so.


Oh BTW at least get my name right... Please......,
Sod Breaker


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## lostcoastland (Jun 20, 2012)

Old School


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 20, 2012)

So, I take it you're not going to post any info about your contracts? You never addressed that. I'm curious if youre saying you are a business? If so, why do you think you can avoid all the typical business insurances? Oh, and the IRS is about 6-7 year behind in audits, so the argument that they haven't cared for the last 2 years, is kind of flawed.

Are your employers taxing you, workmans comp, anything? What about any of the basic rights provided to employees by every legit employer? What happens when someone gets hurt and the bills go into the hundreds of thousands? Who pays? I just crushed my thumb in January, still can't use it or a saw. Going this long without some type of insurance would have killed my savings. As it stands now, less than 500/yr, has saved me a significant amount. What would happen to you or your family if some silly accident happened?

Jeff


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 20, 2012)

I don't understand. Either you can be an independent contractor working for yourself or work for an employer. An independent contractor gets a 1099 at the end of the year and is responsible for paying his own taxes quarterly, his own insurance and business. An employee gets a W-2 and files a 1040. The employer is responsible for witholding and paying taxes, providing insurance, etc. You are hired as an individual, having a business set up yourself is meaningless.

So my question is do you get W-2s at the end of the year and do your employers withold taxes as required? Are you covered by workmans comp? And if that's all true what do you need a contract for?


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## VA-Sawyer (Jun 20, 2012)

There is no such thing as 1040 vs 1099. If you have income: as an employee, self employed, unemployment, whatever it is from, ( with a few exceptions ) you the taxpayer will report it via the 1040 Form to the IRS.

1099's just get reported on a different line than w-2's on the 1040, but they both go on a 1040. Same thing for the self employed, ( except partnerships and Corps ) in that the figures are reported on Schedule C of the 1040 and the bottom line ( profit or loss ) goes onto the front page of the 1040. 

If you are self employed, you have to pay all the SE taxes yourself. If an employee, then you pay half and the employer pays the other half of those taxes ( employees are currently paying 2% less under the stimulas act, but it is temp ).

The IRS has very specific rules about employees vs independent contractors and they don't care if there is an 'agreement' or 'contract' trying to change the relationship status. 

Sod Breaker is as clueless on the subject of taxes as he is on treework, so don't worry, he will be gone in another year or two like so many before him.

Rick


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## tree MDS (Jun 20, 2012)

Man, this place has really gone downhill lately.....

Seems like it's either annoying, ignorant, jokester type buffoons, the rich boy with all the toys type, or the worker's comp auditor/IRS kind hanging around here lately. 

Seems most real treedogs are few and far in between around this piece, lately... just an observation.

Cheers to them anyways, though...


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## lxt (Jun 20, 2012)

Sod Shafter............do you have or work with a ground man by the name of "john boy" & do you own a steiner mower? 

God am I glad I am not in the Biz full time any more & having to compete with goat humpers like this, I still do odd & ends stuff & still have all my Ins. in effect along with keeping my certs good too. Think bout that....! im a part timer & still do things legit, you`re a full time non insured, tax evading, non certified HACK!!



LXT................


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## husabud (Jun 20, 2012)

tree MDS said:


> Man, this place has really gone downhill lately.....
> 
> Seems like it's either annoying, ignorant, jokester type buffoons, the rich boy with all the toys type, or the worker's comp auditor/IRS kind hanging around here lately.
> 
> ...



This , my friend, is why I only visit once every other week. I like to mix it up a bit between life.


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## tree MDS (Jun 20, 2012)

husabud said:


> This , my friend, is why I only visit once every other week. I like to mix it up a bit between life.



Yeah, life is one thing, BS is another..


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 20, 2012)

I hope he ran away from here and dont come back.
Jeff


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## Toddppm (Jun 20, 2012)

How can so many get trolled so hard? It's almost irresistible isn't it?


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## sodbreaker (Jun 20, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> I hope he ran away from here and dont come back.
> Jeff



It's funny so many assumptions can be made based on so little. Seems there is no shortage of "experts" here. Is funny how I have been doing tree work for 5 years but all the sudden I will be gone next year. It's also funny how year after year the same people hire back "a uncertified hack" but if you'd fix your crystal ball you'd know that. I personaly don't have a crystal ball and therefore don't cast judgement or make oppinions on what I don't know. I'd send a $20 bill to the first person on here running me down who comes forward and says(and proves) he has actualy seen how I run business.

Until then I will be content to watch a bunch of folks make fools of themselves by commenting on something they no nothing of, Namely my business practises.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 20, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> So, I take it you're not going to post any info about your contracts? You never addressed that. I'm curious if youre saying you are a business?


I'd post the details, but by the sounds of it over the last 5 pages everybody has appearently already figured out all that out, Or at least they think they have it figured out.


> If so, why do you think you can avoid all the typical business insurances?


Does it bug you that I fly under the radar? If a person takes the time to educate themselves it's amazing what you might learn. If I was like most here and gave the impression of making large amounts of money, everybody wants their cut. Don't give the impresion of large amounts of money and people leave you alone and they will go after the bigger fish. More to it then that, but that's the general idea.


> Oh, and the IRS is about 6-7 year behind in audits, so the argument that they haven't cared for the last 2 years, is kind of flawed.


 Maybe, But that's why you have a good tax preparer, to figure all the fine details out so if/when you get audited your a** is covered


> What happens when someone gets hurt and the bills go into the hundreds of thousands? Who pays?


 I already answered this quite a few posts go.


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## husabud (Jun 20, 2012)

How much Crack can one legally smoke in Minn.? Wait I get it you are one of the sovereign states, no?


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## pdqdl (Jun 20, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> It's funny so many assumptions can be made based on so little....
> 
> Until then I will be content to watch a bunch of folks make fools of themselves by commenting on something they no nothing of, Namely my business practises.



Your comments reveal that you have no idea how to run a business, that you don't know anything about the tax law, and you cannot possibly know much about tree work if you prefer to use homeowner equipment because it is cheaper. Nobody is revealing themselves to be a fool, except that we all seem to be enjoying picking on the troll. _{that would be you}_

So! Here we are, mutually scratching each others back. You have a perverse need to irritate folks and make inflammatory statements; we oblige you by getting inflamed. We, on the other hand, like to pick on trolls and work out our aggressions on folks that ask for abuse. _And here comes sodbreaker..._


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## pdqdl (Jun 20, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> How can so many get trolled so hard? It's almost irresistible isn't it?



We not being trolled! We having fun picking on the troll. 

I enjoy this stuff, and I won't pick on somebody unless they ask for it.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 20, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Your comments reveal that you have no idea how to run a business, that you don't know anything about the tax law, and you cannot possibly know much about tree work if you prefer to use homeowner equipment because it is cheaper. Nobody is revealing themselves to be a fool, except that we all seem to be enjoying picking on the troll. _{that would be you}_
> 
> So! Here we are, mutually scratching each others back. You have a perverse need to irritate folks and make inflammatory statements; we oblige you by getting inflamed. We, on the other hand, like to pick on trolls and work out our aggressions on folks that ask for abuse. _And here comes sodbreaker..._



So if you are having fun getting worked up and by thinking I actualy care about the remarks of a person I've never met and more then likely never will..

I do not have a need to irritate anybody. And funny that you should say that. I'm not the one name calling. But I mine as well enjoy the show. A bunch of people who claim they couldn't care less, but yet they get all worked up. Kind of funny actauly


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 20, 2012)

How are you posting in a commercial tree care forum, when you don't run a commercial business? Looks to me like the only commercial going on here is an anti-drug commercial.

You really believe in your heart the IRS has bigger fish to fry, post your full name and city, if you're scared, you can pm it to me too.

Jeff

You sir, have been called out...


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 20, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> So if you are having fun getting worked up and by thinking I actualy care about the remarks of a person I've never met and more then likely never will..
> 
> I do not have a need to irritate anybody. And funny that you should say that. I'm not the one name calling. But I mine as well enjoy the show. A bunch of people who claim they couldn't care less, but yet they get all worked up. Kind of funny actauly



I, for one am glad you are here!
The other 'court-yard' Jester's got banned.
Kepp it up!
Jeff


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 20, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> I, for one am glad you are here!
> The other 'court-yard' Jester's got banned.
> Kepp it up!
> Jeff



I don't keep up on that kinda stuff. Which one got banned?

Jeff


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> ... and by thinking I actualy care about the remarks of a person I've never met ...
> 
> I do not have a need to irritate anybody. And funny that you should say that. I'm not the one name calling. But I mine as well enjoy the show. A bunch of people who claim they couldn't care less, but yet they get all worked up. Kind of funny actauly



Of course you don't care; that's why you are trolling. This is the same reason we feel free to unburden our negative opinion on you. We know you won't mind. Heck, you really have been asking for the abuse.

If you have no need to be making all these irritating comments, why are you doing it? I noticed when you quoted me earlier you deleted my accusation that you were enjoying the show. 

I see that you are doing it again, too.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Of course you don't care; that's why you are trolling. This is the same reason we feel free to unburden our negative opinion on you. We know you won't mind. Heck, you really have been asking for the abuse.
> 
> If you have no need to be making all these irritating comments, why are you doing it? I noticed when you quoted me earlier you deleted my accusation that you were enjoying the show.
> 
> I see that you are doing it again, too.



So how am I trolling? by posting the way I see it? If thats trolling then help us all.

Only enjoying it as much as those who obviously enjoy keeping it going. If I am such a "troll", which I'm not, but if I was as you and a few others say why are you keeping this goning which apearently is giving me just so much enjoyment


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> How are you posting in a commercial tree care forum, when you don't run a commercial business? Looks to me like the only commercial going on here is an anti-drug commercial.
> 
> You really believe in your heart the IRS has bigger fish to fry, post your full name and city, if you're scared, you can pm it to me too.
> 
> ...



After you.... Your not "Scared" are you??


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> So how am I trolling? by posting the way I see it? If thats trolling then help us all.
> 
> Only enjoying it as much as those who obviously enjoy keeping it going. If I am such a "troll", which I'm not, but if I was as you and a few others say why are you keeping this goning which apearently is giving me just so much enjoyment



See! More trolling!

To answer your _*first *_question, I draw from wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] "

Your first post suggests that you know it will be inflammatory: "Don't hate me, but I'll take trees down for less then $100...", after which, you go on to describe your inappropriate business practices.

Your second post suggests that paying for insurance will cost the homeowner 10 times as much. I would call that a serious error in judgement, as well as inflammatory. 

In your 3rd post, you admit to trolling: "I figured someone who have a fit over my remark..."

Well into the dialogue, accused of providing an encore to your previous trolling efforts, you admit it: *"I'm bored and need enterainment.*" _{You could spend some of your spare time working on your spelling and grammar}_

Well...Now I am calling you out for being a liar. You admitted to making comments because you were bored and were seeking entertainment, yet you deny it in the post quoted above.

In response to your _*second*_ (poorly phrased) question, why are we (the bulk of the contributors to this thread) keeping it going? That's easy! I explained it all before, here and here.

Now quit pretending to be a stupid troll, wise up and take your whipping like the good troll that we know you to be.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> See! More trolling!
> 
> To answer your _*first *_question, I draw from wikipedia: "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] "
> 
> ...



I knew you would post a good one,
Yup, a troll he is and I ain't playing.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

To the extent that I am participating, that makes me a troll too.

My goal here is not just to be entertained, it is to WIN. I figure I have won when one of three things happen.

1. The opposition admits their faults and seeks a concession. _This doesn't happen too often. Sodbuster had his chance earlier, and quietly didn't respond when I asked him to admit that he enjoys yanking our chain._
2. The opposition dries up and quietly goes away. _This generally is what happens with folks that are not professional trolls, and are smart enough to realize that they keep getting whipped._
3. The diehard trolls never quit. Sometimes they realize that they are losing every logical argument, and they divert to name calling, inane rhetoric, or other types of responses that they think are a bit safer from attack. The rest of the time, they just keep going like the aerial energizer bunny.

I suspect that sodbreaker doesn't have the stamina that AA had. He is much more skilled than AA at deferring a point and simply issuing another troll. [see wikipedia for the appropriate definition of that usage]

So, Sodbreaker! Is today my lucky day? Do I win, or does the logical pummeling continue?


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> After you.... Your not "Scared" are you??



I'm not. Posted earlier, here is where the IRS can visit anytime they like: http://www.arboristsite.com/off-topic-forum/128850-683.htm#post3707726


The clock is ticking...





Of course, the IRS always did know where I am found. And unlike some people, I haven't been giving them any reasons to want to visit, either.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> After you.... Your not "Scared" are you??



Jeffrey A. Blalock, Flint, MI. Put up, or shut up


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Jeffrey A. Blalock, Flint, MI. Put up, or shut up



There ya go, 'sodraker'.
Jeff


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Your first post suggests that you know it will be inflammatory: "Don't hate me, but I'll take trees down for less then $100...", after which, you go on to describe your inappropriate business practices.


 Inapprpriate in what way? 



> Your second post suggests that paying for insurance will cost the homeowner 10 times as much. I would call that a serious error in judgement, as well as inflammatory.


I didn't know that you wanted it down to the last dime.



> In your 3rd post, you admit to trolling: "I figured someone who have a fit over my remark..."


 Your grasping at straws



> Well into the dialogue, accused of providing an encore to your previous trolling efforts, you admit it: *"I'm bored and need enterainment.*" _{You could spend some of your spare time working on your spelling and grammar}_


 as does the majority here or they wouldn't be on here as admitted by more then one person on here and in more then one thread.

Well...Now I am calling you out for being a liar. You admitted to making comments because you were bored and were seeking entertainment, yet you deny it in the post quoted above.

[/quote] See above


Funny about the inflamatory remarks, I'm not the one constantly name calling.
BTW Mike Poppinga Hewitt Mn.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Sometimes they realize that they are losing every logical argument, and they divert to name calling, inane rhetoric, or other types of responses that they think are a bit safer from attack.



You mean like those who have been calling me names in every responce? Sign of a weak arguement if you ask me. You'll notice if you go back and look at everyone of my posts not one of them in this thread or any other on this forum has name calling towards another member. Yet every other post in this thread has someone calling me a name.  I am quite frankly bewildered how anyone can comment with a straight face that I am posting the inflamatory remarks, in light of the above mentioned.

ETA: Sorry every 3rd post not every other....


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 21, 2012)

Just so everyone is aware, sod, you've been reported to people at the IRS who do in fact care.

I'm done here.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Just so everyone is aware, sod, you've been reported to people at the IRS who do in fact care.
> 
> I'm done here.



Am I supposed to be scarred? You (or the IRS) ain't going to prove nothing. You how ever been reported to the BBB Although you will probably win your case. The amount of stress it puts on you and your business is only fair for the name calling you did to me here.

I'm done here too... for now anyway........


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## Gologit (Jun 21, 2012)

*Sodbreaker*

All these guys you've been arguing with are experienced tree people. They each, in their own way, add a lot to this forum. They're always willing to share their expertise and help anyone who needs it.

You, on the other hand, are adding nothing. You need to sit back and just read some of the posts from people who are doing the actual work that you aspire to. If you have legitimate questions they'll probably answer them.

But if all you want to do is argue you can take your arguments someplace else...voluntarily or otherwise. Your choice entirely.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> Inapprpriate in what way?
> 
> I didn't know that you wanted it down to the last dime.
> 
> ...


 See above


Funny about the inflamatory remarks, I'm not the one constantly name calling.
BTW Mike Poppinga Hewitt Mn.[/QUOTE]

You must be the son of AA, cool, it has bit a bit boring lately.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> You mean like those who have been calling me names in every responce? Sign of a weak arguement if you ask me. You'll notice if you go back and look at everyone of my posts not one of them in this thread or any other on this forum has name calling towards another member. Yet every other post in this thread has someone calling me a name.  I am quite frankly bewildered how anyone can comment with a straight face that I am posting the inflamatory remarks, in light of the above mentioned.
> 
> ETA: Sorry every 3rd post not every other....



It is quite true that you have been pretty well behaved with respect to name calling. I haven't really noticed too much name calling, unless you are referring to hack, troll, or some of the other labels that have been used to describe you. You did slip a little bit when you made references to "fools".

Speaking of fools, do you really think that you can effectively pretend to be one by not understanding the clearly stated arguments I have posted?

You keep pretending to not understand how we make certain conclusions, we explain in clear detail, and then you either ignore the post or defer with a claim of ignorance. While I can certainly believe that you are ignorant, your inventory of logical tricks to win an argument is a bit weak. Learn some new ones.

Your latest response falls under item #3 of my previous post, where I outline the methods that I use to consider when I have won over diehard trolls. 

Keep trying! You'll get better at this if you practice enough.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

Gologit said:


> All these guys you've been arguing with are experienced tree people. They each, in their own way, add a lot to this forum. They're always willing to share their expertise and help anyone who needs it.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are adding nothing. You need to sit back and just read some of the posts from people who are doing the actual work that you aspire to. If you have legitimate questions they'll probably answer them.
> 
> But if all you want to do is argue you can take your arguments someplace else...voluntarily or otherwise. Your choice entirely.



All I' m doing is defending my previous statement. If this thread would have died 5 pages ago like it should have, you would have never heard from me about it. But don't think for I minute I am going to sit back and not defend my postion when it's attacked. It's no different then you would do. Call me what ever names you like But the fore mentioned remains a fact.


----------



## Garden Of Eden (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> Am I supposed to be scarred? You (or the IRS) ain't going to prove nothing. You how ever been reported to the BBB Although you will probably win your case. The amount of stress it puts on you and your business is only fair for the name calling you did to me here.
> 
> I'm done here too... for now anyway........



Won't cause me any problems, I'm not a member, and I don't recalling calling you anything. However, if you did report me, maliciously as you just indicated, I will sue you.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Your latest response falls under item #3 of my previous post, where I outline the methods that I use to consider when I have won over diehard trolls.
> 
> Keep trying! You'll get better at this if you practice enough.



As I said your grasping at straws. So I screwwed by not realising that everything would be taken literaly and out of context. You got me on that one, But you still haven't proven I'm a troll. But can I assume by continuing to defend my postion you'll construe that as trolling as well? Just out of honest curiosity what answer exactly do you seek from me? *If* I come out and say I'm a troll it does no justice to the postion I hold, but you'll get to brag to everyone that you "Called me out." If I leave this thread and quit posting, as hindsight shows I should have done, you'll falsely claim the same. If I continue You'll never admit your wrong any more then I will back down from a position I know to be right. So this thread will go on indefinitely.

So I ask in all honestly, What do you desire for me to say to you?


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> ... If this thread would have died 5 pages ago like it should have, you would have never heard from me about it....



I need to add a 4th category of response from folks that are losing a battle of wits. _Complaints to the moderators!_


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## Gologit (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> All I' m doing is defending my previous statement. If this thread would have died 5 pages ago like it should have, you would have never heard from me about it. But don't think for I minute I am going to sit back and not defend my postion when it's attacked. It's no different then you would do. Call me what ever names you like But the fore mentioned remains a fact.



When a bunch of people, some of whom don't even like each other, all tell you the same thing you'd do well to listen. In this case, you are wrong. Period.


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

You haven't proved that in that the last six pages why should I believe you'll prove it in the next 6?


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> As I said your grasping at straws. So I screwwed by not realising that everything would be taken literaly and out of context. You got me on that one, But you still haven't proven I'm a troll. But can I assume by continuing to defend my postion you'll construe that as trolling as well? Just out of honest curiosity what answer exactly do you seek from me? *If* I come out and say I'm a troll it does no justice to the postion I hold, but you'll get to brag to everyone that you "Called me out." If I leave this thread and quit posting, as hindsight shows I should have done, you'll falsely claim the same. If I continue You'll never admit your wrong any more then I will back down from a position I know to be right. So this thread will go on indefinitely.
> 
> So I ask in all honestly, What do you desire for me to say to you?



Nothing more than you have done in this post. You have conceded that there is no logical way to stop the argument without appearing to lose by the definitions I posted, and you seem to be requesting a cease fire. _Granted._

With respect to proving one thing or another, you seem genuinely unable to grasp the meaning of my posts, so I will stop picking on you. I always honor a request to desist. 

I do have a question. 

What exactly is the "position that you hold" in this thread? I don't seem to recall that you made any definitive assertions except that paying for insurance will make you quote higher prices and that using the homeowners saw works to your advantage.

BTW: I don't brag. I only argue with folks online for the fun of it. I am quite good at it, and it only makes enemies for me here unless it is with some poor fellow like yourself who sticks his neck out and asks for it. Gologit gave you some excellent advice. If you want to learn anything about tree work, this is a good place to get it. It is also a good place to find folks that will argue with, scorn, deride, and abuse your every posted thought. Be careful, and be nice.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Jun 21, 2012)

sodhacker, its like this, if you dont have insurance, your a hack....we all pay our due's


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## sodbreaker (Jun 21, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I do have a question.
> 
> What exactly is the "position that you hold" in this thread? I don't seem to recall that you made any definitive assertions except that paying for insurance will make you quote higher prices and that using the homeowners saw works to your advantage.
> 
> BTW: I don't brag. I only argue with folks online for the fun of it. I am quite good at it, and it only makes enemies for me here unless it is with some poor fellow like yourself who sticks his neck out and asks for it. Gologit gave you some excellent advice. If you want to learn anything about tree work, this is a good place to get it. It is also a good place to find folks that will argue with, scorn, deride, and abuse your every posted thought. Be careful, and be nice.



First of all my position is that My labor/work arrangements exempt from requiring ins and the like because they are taken care through other means as per any labor contracts. as is workers comp, keepin the IRS happy, etc.

I admit there is alot about saws to be learned from this forum. and I never once argued that

Having said all of the above I agree to stop and desist posting if all others involved do the same..

Sod Breaker


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## Gologit (Jun 21, 2012)

sodbreaker said:


> First of all my position is that My labor/work arrangements exempt from requiring ins and the like because they are taken care through other means as per any labor contracts. as is workers comp, keepin the IRS happy, etc.
> 
> I admit there is alot about saws to be learned from this forum. and I never once argued that
> 
> ...



Good choice.


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## sgreanbeans (Jun 22, 2012)

Is this guy for real,LOL. I really don't believe this guy is real, just someone making things exciting. 

Danno, is that u..........101 or maybe its JPS, nah not him, maybe MDS, HMMMMM.


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