# ms200 bites again



## kf_tree

well my star groundman/ropeman got 17 stitch's on his left hand today. i guess we all know how it happened. i was up in a tree and he dissapeared, then another groundy came back and said he cut himself bad. so the first thing we did was rip off his company t shirt and fired him, then gave him bus fare.


----------



## notahacker

Ripped his shirt off, fired him, and gave him a bus fare? Wow!


----------



## kf_tree

notahacker said:


> Ripped his shirt off, fired him, and gave him a bus fare? Wow!



well if we did that how would i know he recieved 17 stitches? he's my star ropeman, i have to take care of him.


----------



## Eagle1

SO..... How did he cut himself? He was working on the ground with a 200T?
One handing???


----------



## kf_tree

we have a slew of ms200's the guys like them on the ground to dice up brush. this job all debris had to be taken through the house so it's gets cut up pretty small. the cut was right across where the thick part of thumb/hand. i'm still not 100% clear how he did it,i'll find out whem he comes back. he even showed up to work this morning, but the boss sent him home for a couple of paid days off. i'm kind of surprised it happened to him of all people, he's real good at running a saw.


----------



## Bermie

Doesn't matter how good an operator you are, using a top handled chainsaw with one hand is a recipie for disaster.


----------



## Jim1NZ

Im with you Bermie


----------



## Bermie

Rock on!


----------



## 046

was reading somewhere top-handled saws are regulated in UK?


----------



## MrRecurve

Yeah you need a special chainsaw photo id to buy one.


----------



## Eagle1

But for real, in the tree how can you not have occiasion to one hand?


----------



## Diesel JD

The nanny government Europeans trying to protect us from ourselves. Kinda like Bow guides being illegal in Colorado. Most pros I've seen do one hand occaisonally, but when I see that I always worry I'm going to see somethingI don't want to see. How will you stop kickback with one hand?


----------



## Acer

046 said:


> was reading somewhere top-handled saws are regulated in UK?


 
Like someone said, you need proof you've got the right qualifications to buy one. As far as I know, it's illegal to use them on the ground full stop. Because some people have used them with one hand and cut themselves, the HSE believe that the best way forward is to make us all suffer. They seriously considered banning them outright, but relented..for the moment.


----------



## Bermie

Yes, you need to show your NPTC qualification. Cause if you've got that then someone has told you all the ways you can die from using a top handled saw with one hand!
As for using it one handed in the tree, sure if you are way out on the end of the branch and leaning away from all your ropes and your other hand is being used to hold on. That's about the only time it's ok, so if you get kickback the saw just flies away from you, or you drop it clear, not into your rope, legs, other hand, arm or anywhere else!


----------



## West Texas

Thank goodness, I'm too old and weak to use a saw with one hand. Hope he's gonna be alright.


----------



## Mr_Brushcutter

Acer said:


> Like someone said, you need proof you've got the right qualifications to buy one. As far as I know, it's illegal to use them on the ground full stop. Because some people have used them with one hand and cut themselves, the HSE believe that the best way forward is to make us all suffer. They seriously considered banning them outright, but relented..for the moment.



I've been informed that the HSE can revoke your chainsaw licence for using a top handled one on the ground. Don't know if theres any truth to it but i often see people using the top handled chainsaw to cut stuff feeding into the chipper. Come to think of it wasn't that one of the things they fround upon in the artical in total Arb top handle chainsaws use em right or we'll take them away.


----------



## 046

as pointed out in UK's goverment safety publications. 

they recognize there are certain situations where one-handing a top handle saw is the safest method.


----------



## rick2752

I am new here and was just reading and grimacing about the accident. I wonder if vermeer or anyone has contacted the guys who invented saw stop. Its an automatic brake(dont ask me how) that kicks in when a table saw blade hits flesh. They show them touching a hotdog to a table saw blade and it barely nicks the hotdog coming to a screeching halt. It may sound stupid but I would bet that that technology could be adapted to a grinder


----------



## Sprig

Am I dumb but how the heckk do ya cut yerself onehanding? I mean on a hand.....where is your other hand? Hanging on I'd imagine. Sounds like a fairly lot of flexability lol. (not laughing at injry) Inattention imo, be nice ta know the real story btw.


----------



## Sizzle-Chest

Sprig said:


> Am I dumb but how the heckk do ya cut yerself onehanding? I mean on a hand.....where is your other hand? Hanging on I'd imagine. Sounds like a fairly lot of flexability lol. (not laughing at injry) Inattention imo, be nice ta know the real story btw.



Am guessing he was cutting something he was holding? Anyway, I don't want to sound crazy here, but i cut all the time one handed. I know its a bad idea with a big saw, but those little guys are built for it. Am I the only one?


----------



## kf_tree

sizzle chest is correct......the debris on the job had to go through the house so he was cutting the brush small holding branch's in one hand and cutting with the other.


----------



## Diesel JD

A top handle can't be used safely on the ground...I doubt it...anything that can be used safely in a tree must certainly be safer on the ground. I still don't understand how these one handing injuries occur...is it by losing control of it...? cutting your non cutting hand...what?


----------



## kf_tree

Diesel JD said:


> A top handle can't be used safely on the ground...I doubt it...anything that can be used safely in a tree must certainly be safer on the ground. I still don't understand how these one handing injuries occur...is it by losing control of it...? cutting your non cutting hand...what?



my guess he was cutting very small stuff and he probably caught a small piece with the tip and the saw jumped.


----------



## Bodean

What's the difference cutting on the ground one-handed or strapped to a tree cutting one handed. Seems like more control on the ground. When I'm chunking I keep one hand on the saw and one on the chunk 
( so as not to lose the chunk over a house). Sharp saw is a safe saw.
D


----------



## Bermie

Injuries using top handled chainsaws with one hand exceed all other kinds of chainsaw injuries combined!


----------



## pinus

The main problem with T-handled saws is the possibility to use them with only one hand :angel:


----------



## puwer

I appreciate the main thrust of the thread may have past by now but a few items of interest from over the pond.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm

http://www.fcauk.com/afagguides.htm

As some of you point out there is an informal agreement between manufacturers/dealers and the HSE that users must show competence to use a top handled saw before purchase (In the Uk: NPTC tickets) Acer the PUWER regs are the ones to cast an eye as to the use of top handled saws on the ground. 

Regulation 4: Suitability of work equipment.

(3) Every employer shall ensure that work equipment is used only for operations for which, and under conditions for which, it is suitable. 

In regard to suitablity of work equipment this has been reinforced with the availability of the MS200. 

Brushcutter, HSE can't revoke your NPTC tickets, no-one can at this time. Prosecutions for mis-use of top handled saws fall under PUWER and just to boot no doubt the management of health and safety at work regs as your risk assessment is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.


----------



## gumneck

Sizzle-Chest said:


> Am guessing he was cutting something he was holding? Anyway, I don't want to sound crazy here, but i cut all the time one handed. I know its a bad idea with a big saw, but those little guys are built for it. Am I the only one?



Nah, even the pros do it!


----------



## tam

well... supposedly you can't buy a top handled saw unless you've got your saw from rope and harness ticket... but that doesn't happen.

besides i got my 200t off ebay.


----------



## sal b

*No Respect*



pinus said:


> The main problem with T-handled saws is the possibility to use them with only one hand :angel:


people think its a small saw and you dont have to respect it like a big saw. so you might be nonchalant with it in a brush pile and cut like a chinaman


----------



## clearance

Sal-you horrible racist how dare you say something like that, you should be charged with hate speech....really?, you mean they can't run a saw?, I thought that they just couldn't drive. Bodean, you are totally right, this has come up here before, top handed saws are made to be used with one hand, thats why the handle is on top.


----------



## pantheraba

clearance said:


> Bodean, you are totally right, this has come up here before, top handed saws are made to be used with one hand, thats why the handle is on top.


*
Not according to Stihl*...check page three of this site:

http://www.stihl.de/safety_manuals/usa_en/Motorsaege_US_englisch.pdf

This is the Stihl safety manual on line for the 200T...it says:

"Do *not* operate a chainsaw with one hand! Serious injury to the operator, helpers, bystanders or any combination of these persons may result from one-handed operation. A chainsaw is intended to be used with two hands."

There are several other places where it says to ONLY use two hands.

It does not sound like Stihl designed their saw to be used with one hand.

(Sizzle, you may have gotten away with it so far...it is not worth the risk. )


----------



## Sizzle-Chest

panthro, i was reading through this thread just now and i didnt even remember that i had posted in it (it was one of my first posts). i was actually suprised to read what i had written. since then i have heard so many bad things about using those little guys one handed that i avoid it whenever possible.


----------



## pantheraba

Sizzle-Chest said:


> since then i have heard so many bad things about using those little guys one handed that i avoid it whenever possible.



Good...you made my day. Keep me posted on your gestational situation.


----------



## stihlatit

The saw has a place for both your hands. I don't want to hear that you got hurt.

Arnie


----------



## clearance

NOT ACCORDING TO STIHL- what? Is one of Andreas Stihls ancestors divinely appointed to spew forth all manner of b.s., like the pope? Panther, Sizzle, Stihl, etc. here is an idea for you, don't one hand your 020. There, simple. I don't one hand that much anymore, no real need since I quit utility work. This question has come up here many times, many viewpoints pro and con. I'll concede, yes you can get cut using one hand more than if you use two hands, so when you one hand use extra caution. There are ways to avoid one handing but it would take so long and be so unproductive in certain jobs as to be retarded. Say you are sidelimbing or removing conifers thats branches overhang a powerline. I cut with one hand and push with the other, or push and hold on. I guess you could use a handsaw to finish the cut, hundreds of times, same when you are pushing of the top or logs. You could but kind of like the joke-An old rancher finds his son jerking off behind the barn, he is upset, happens repeatedly, the old man finds a real innocent sweet girl to marry his son and buys them a house. He gives them a few months to get settled then goes to see them. His sons wife is alone in the kitchen cooking, the old man looks for his son, there he is, behind the house jerking off. The old man just loses it. "Goddam it boy, what the fek are you doing, thats what I got you a wife for" "I know you did Pa, but after a while her arm gets sore."


----------



## pantheraba

clearance said:


> NOT ACCORDING TO STIHL- what? Is one of Andreas Stihls ancestors divinely appointed to spew forth all manner of b.s., like the pope?



Clearance, don't get ramped up...no eyeball jabbing here. I was just addressing your statement that they were designed to be used one handed. Everything I read from Stihl tells me they are *NOT* designed to be used one handed. But just because they are designed for one thing doesn't mean somebody won't find another way to use it...I have read that some guys even fight bears with them. 

If folks are going to use them one handed they need to be very aware of why it might be a problem...some folks will instinctively do it without knowing how dangerous it is. It's the *"Doh!!"* that I hate. :bang:


----------



## clearance

O.K. no offence. Like the joke? ms200 saws will probably not be used by homeowner/weekend warrior types because they are expensive and too small to use on the ground when compared to other saws. We cut trails in the bush and through the logging slash when we have to, walking along with my caulks and a backpack, ms200 in hand. I really think after using one for years, one gets to know how they work and what they do. Sometimes it is safer to buck or put in a backcut with one hand on a big saw also. One handing works, but like I have said many times, you have to be carefull.


----------



## stihlatit

clearance said:


> NOT ACCORDING TO STIHL- what? Is one of Andreas Stihls ancestors divinely appointed to spew forth all manner of b.s., like the pope? Panther, Sizzle, Stihl, etc. here is an idea for you, don't one hand your 020. There, simple. I don't one hand that much anymore, no real need since I quit utility work. This question has come up here many times, many viewpoints pro and con. I'll concede, yes you can get cut using one hand more than if you use two hands, so when you one hand use extra caution. There are ways to avoid one handing but it would take so long and be so unproductive in certain jobs as to be retarded. Say you are sidelimbing or removing conifers thats branches overhang a powerline. I cut with one hand and push with the other, or push and hold on. I guess you could use a handsaw to finish the cut, hundreds of times, same when you are pushing of the top or logs."



Sorry I cared about you enough to say I dont want to see you as a statistic. Glad you dont have to do it anymore. Don't take anyones word for it here. Go look at the statistics. Far be it for me to be your father and catch you one handing behind the shed. Also my post was not written for just your benefit. Don't take either comment personal.

Arnie


----------



## Sizzle-Chest

clearance said:


> top handed saws are made to be used with one hand, thats why the handle is on top.


.


----------



## tam

LOL MAN!!!! THAT PICTURE IS QUALITY!!

but the thing is, every so often you do get the need to use the saw one handed. if you at all can, use it two handed. obviously.


----------



## Fireaxman

clearance said:


> I cut with one hand and push with the other, or push and hold on.



I'm careful to keep both hands behind the saw, after a near miss cutting and pushing, but every so often it is Wonderful to be able to cut with one hand and stabilize myself on the trunk of the tree with the other hand. One hand for the job and one hand for me seems reasonable. I tie in twice for cuts (2 fliplines or flip line and climbing line) but sometimes I have to reach out a little to get the cut where I want it. That's when I really appreciate the little 200t.

I don't think the Stihl engineers wrote the book. I think the Stihl lawyers wrote it. And I don't think they climb trees with chain saws.

Exceptionally Good pict, Sizzle, and I know what the front handle is for. I use it 90% of the time. But allow me the lattitude to evaluate the risks and adapt to the situation. Never say "Never".


----------



## Eagle1

How do you get a pic on this site??? opps I did it... this is Georges hand after he knows it is sharp...."Dang W"

Really it was my one hand 200t mishap a year ago...lucky man I am. /just clean out and 3-4 stitches in each finger....cutting the top, pushing with one hand....learn here follks.


----------



## jmack

*firewood*



Bermie said:


> Doesn't matter how good an operator you are, using a top handled chainsaw with one hand is a recipie for disaster.


temptation is there for one handing like when making firewood.


----------



## wradman

*kickback*

maybee they should change the kickback regs on the cchainbreaks for top handled saws (just a thought) what do you guys think


----------



## BoesTreeService

I personally dont see the need for one handed cutting on the ground, so I have gone to 017 for my small ground saw, the top handle is for climbing only. Despite what the Stihl lawyers paste into the manual, a top handle saw is made for one handed cutting, and the fact that they are only made in the climbing saws (small lanayard equiped saws) is because there are on occasion when one handed cutting is necessary when perched in a tree. But this is rare even in climbing, but I cant see when it would ever be NECESSARY on the ground. It might be a little easier, but that just means youre being lazy. So according to my company safety plan, there will be no one handed cutting on the ground, and to help accomplish that , I have taken away the temptation of allowing the ground work to be done with top handle saws. 

PS, I am VERY curious as to what kind of situation would have you removing brush through a house??!! I dont think I could do that - my guys would get distracted and I would surely go into the house to find them standing in front of the TV with brush in thier hands...


----------



## clearance

Terry, I sure hope your plan says to never one hand a saw under any circumstances, 020 saws are made to be one-handed but one handing is against the work law here and I think most places. If some is hurt one handing make up some b.s. story so nothing happens, fines, snivelling by authorities, etc.. It is funny to see what people have to say about one handing, pro or con. Even funnier how some of the people who have something to say don't even climb.


----------



## BoesTreeService

Here is a question for everyone - irregardless of what Stihl ( or perhaps as someone pointed out previously Stihl's lawyers) put into thier manual, there is only one reason for manufacturing a top handle saw - and that is for one handed cutting. It is my assumption, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, that top handled saws are only available in the climbing saw models (ie small with lanyard attachments) because during climbing is when one handed cutting is most necessary. Is that correct? 

If anyone is injured doing one handed cutting on my job site, it had better be me because I am the only climber, and the only one using the top handle saw. 

So, Clearance - are you saying my site safety plan is a hinderance because if an injury occurs while someone is violating the plan, it could cause problems? I will check the local laws to see if one handed saw use is prohibited, and be sure my plan complies. But I seriously doubt that will effect my occasional need to use the saw in the way it was designed.

I may start a new thread to see if anyone else is using site safety plans.


----------



## sal b

Fireaxman said:


> .
> 
> I don't think the Stihl engineers wrote the book. I think the Stihl lawyers wrote it. And I don't think they climb trees with chain saws.
> 
> ".


 i wouldnt be surprised if stihl lawyers make them stop selling yellow chains


----------



## clearance

Terry, just because manuals, laws or your manual say one handing is forbidden, you can still one hand, just c.y.a.. The 020 is made for one handing, that is obvious. Some companies have gone to using regular saws in trees to stop people from one handing. Treeco and others are on crack, talking shi , ignore them.


----------



## Tom Dunlap

Everyone who has a copy of The Tree Climbers Companion would do well to get it out and read the introduction. You might gain another insight about one-handing and double tie-ins. Jeff has an interesting and compelling story. 

Would anyone care to do a book report?

The arguement that top-handle saws were 'made' to use one handed doesn't hold water. There are plenty of examples of ways to use things in a manner that they weren't designed.


----------



## wradman

*topping saw*

are you guys allowed to tie the saw to yourself or just the tree


----------



## clearance

Wradman, my 020 hangs of a lanyard behind me. Tom, way back when 020 saws were made out of steel and aluminum, what did the manual say? Before all the lawyers multiplied and everyone went sue crazy, before people needed instructions on how to go to the can? And, even if they were not meant to be used one handed some of the time they perform admirably in this respect, so well in fact that is why some conclude that is why the handle is on top. Once I used a trailer hitch tongue to pound wedges so I could fall a couple of trees, I know it wasn't designed for that, so what? A nonsensical arguement from you in this regard. In regards to the book, is this the bible? Is Jeff holy? Here is my advice to you or anyone else that shares your opinion about top handed saws, don't one hand. Simple.


----------



## Tom Dunlap

clearance said:


> Once I used a trailer hitch tongue to pound wedges so I could fall a couple of trees, I know it wasn't designed for that, so what? A nonsensical arguement from you in this regard. In regards to the book, is this the bible? Is Jeff holy? Here is my advice to you or anyone else that shares your opinion about top handed saws, don't one hand. Simple.



You mix metaphors...pounding wedges with a hitch isn't closely related to one handing. It's not about design, it's about accepted safety practices. I'm not telling you how to work, you don't listen to anyone else, and anytime I suggest something you take the opposite stance. 

Have you read Jeff's story? If not, you missed a good one. You know everything so it's unlikely that you would need to lower yourself to learning from anyone else. For the rest of us who like to learn the world of arborculture would be a lot different if Jeff weren't lucky, or blessed as he says. 

TCC isn't a bible by any means but no one that I've ever talked to has said that it isn't one of the best books in arborculture. Have you read the book? Jeff isn't holy...but that's something that he and I talk about at our Saturday evening campfires. He's just a regular guy who runs a tree company and is lucky to be alive. If you have TCC you would have read his story in the introduction. Have you read Jeff's story? It relates very closely to the topic at hand.

PS As I re-reread all of the posts in this thread I see that the discussion seems to fall into three groups. The first is the ones who don't advocate one handing and are feel that this makes sense. The second are the ones who one hand occasionally, feel that it is unsafe but have made their peace with the risk. There seems to be about equal numbers in the first two groups. The third group advocates for one handing and feels that the rules, regs and good practices aren't made for them. there seems to be few people in the third group. What does this mean???


----------



## wradman

*topping*

thanks for the info i'm more of your typical psyco bc production handfaller. I do a fair amount of climbing for extra cash, i spent 3 years working for yarders (tree rigging) so it's not new to me but i'm sure i'm nowhere near the climer most of you are i probably still climb about 20 trees per year sometimes more sometimes less. Been doing crazy stuff with cranes lately.keep the info coming.(don't panic i'm accident free over 10 years)
i use the husky 335 i do one hand but not unnecesarily
when i'm on the ground i get serious with my 288


----------



## wradman

*topping*

just learning i hope this works
guess i can't work these attachments


----------



## clearance

Wradman, I love it "psyco faller". It takes big balls to fall, I know, the other day a faller said we were crazy climbing trees!, climbing is way safer than falling, anyone that has done both knows why. Treeco, I apologize to you. Tom, one handing is rule I chose to break, I can and do learn, for example I never freeclimb anymore. I obey most of the rules at work, actually the one hand deal is the only one I don't. I wear caulks with good caulks, h/h w/screen and muffs, fallers pants, high vis, pressure bandage, whistle, even wear my seatbelt in the truck. I haven't read Jeffs book, not opposed to reading it, probably some new thing to learn. I too am lucky to be here, got my own stories about almost getting my ticket punched. Anyways, every climber I have ever met or worked with one hands, so much for the the three groups in my world. And you are a res. climber, not a production utility climber (my former job). At the course I took for utility work the instructor (ISA, CUA, TCIA? other stuff too) said anyone who freeclimbed or one handed at the course would fail. We were all scared and brought handsaws and extra steelcores. After I blocked down a fir using the chainsaw/handsaw finish method for the first and only time I knew this was a rule that just sucked, at least I tried it, and it sucked big time. Thanks for your concern, I know that your heart is in the right place Tom and you really don't want people to get hurt, even hacks like me.


----------



## Stumper

Regarding the book report-Jeff Jepson cut his single tie-in with a chainsaw and fell 40 feet. Regarding Tophandled saws being 'designed" to use one handed-Not true-there are old top handles saws that are hard to pick up with 2 hands, Many of the consumer saws made in the 70-s and 80's were tophandles. The makers were trying to make tiny saws not one hand saws. On the other (1) hand -the current professional top handled saws are clearly intended for a market whose pros desire a saw they can control with one hand. I am not ashamed of my one handed use of my climbing saws... but that doesn't mean that I think that everyone should do or that ANYONE should do it without considering the potential consequences.


----------



## Tom Dunlap

Stumper said:


> Jeff Jepson cut his single tie-in with a chainsaw and fell 40 feet. Regarding Tophandled saws being 'designed" to use one handed-Not true-there are old top handles saws that are hard to pick up with 2 hands, Many of the consumer saws made in the 70-s and 80's were tophandles. The makers were trying to make tiny saws not one hand saws. On the other (1) hand -the current professional top handled saws are clearly intended for a market whose pros desire a saw they can control with one hand...everyone should do or that ANYONE should do it without considering the potential consequences.



Thanks for the book report 

Jeff and I have talked a lot about his close call with Death. He acknowledges that he was doing something that he souldn't have been. After his close call he stopped one handing and stated using a second tie in. He was working in real winter conditions in Longville,

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Longville,+MN

and wearing heavy mitts. Jeff, and many others who owned the original 020's, felt that the saw wasn't designed for one handing because of the poor balance and small top handle. Now, add in mitts and an extended reach. His mitt got jammed in the throttle mechanism which lead to a kick back which cut his rope. 

In Jeff's case, he didn't die or get hurt. His world would be a lot different if he had been killed or injured. He has a wife and two wonderful kids. Then...think about how different things would be without The Tree Climbers Companion. Th book is still selling steadily. 

At the end of "Jurassic Park" when the people were flying away in the helicopter Jeff Goldblum says, "It just goes to show...even though we CAN do something, maybe we shouldn't..."

Don't think for a second that I don't one hand on a rare occasion. But when I do there are so many actions and thoughts that precede it that I generally find a way to position myself to use two hands. Even though I've never done production utility work I have done production work around targets that are just as dangerous...and done line clearance as a part of the work. How many and how much exposure to extreme dangerous situations do you need to have in your life before you get hurt? Promoting unsafe actions and dismissing accepted practices is irresponsible.


----------



## BoesTreeService

You wont convince me that top handle saws are not made for one hand cutting. Thats sure as hell why I sold my old 018 and got the top handle.

Its certainly not the only product made to be used in a manner thats not totally legal - The speedometer on my car says 140, and it will do it. But I doubt Ford would ever say that was it's intended use. The gun manufacturers continue to make guns that are easily converted to a fully automatic, which is totally against the law, when they could easily make them so that they could not be converted. The make the gun specifically so it can be converted, then put out a manual saying dont ever do it. I could go on and on with products such as this. Just because Stihl says they dont make it for one handing doesnt mean its so. Wake up and smell the coffee. 

And I dont think that posting on here is gonna get someone writing legislation to quit the production of top handle saws.


----------



## clearance

Tom, now having heard the story (thanks Stumper) I can see you are, from a logical and causal reason for this accident, simply wrong about one handing being the cause. The accident happened cause Jeff was wearing freakin huge mitts! Here is a tip, don't wear freakin huge mitts when running a saw!. I have worked in the cold with saws, I take of my orange cotton webbed chainsaw gloves and put my hands under my arms or somewhere else warm for a bit. Sometimes I hold my fingers in front of the exaust. You have to have control of the trigger at all times during use, it would have been great for me to wear mitts, with rabbit fur even, just not safe, as your buddy found out. Couple of questions regarding your last post. 1) What is just as dangerous as a live powerline?. 2) Were you trained to do utility work, and if so how so trained?.


----------



## Tom Dunlap

Clearnace,

Your reasoning is so twisted there is no way to even continue trying to discuss anything with you. 

The gloves caused the kickback??? What would have not caused the kickback and rope cutting? Two hands!!!

Once again, you're completely wrong. Wearing cotton gloves in cold or wet conditions is wrong. Wool or synthetics are the way to go. No matter what you claim to know, cotton cools or kotton kills. The winters in north central Minnesota have got to be worse than anything that you're likely to ever experience in BC unless you go above treeline.

More dangerous in the sense of causing damage and sometimes death. Working around landscapes or hot wires. Don't turn this into a discussion about who has the biggest 'tool. When I started climbing professionally in the early '70s, were you around then?  there wasn't any formal training for line clearance work. the guy who taught me treework was a lineman for Bell System, do you remember Bell Phone Company? Probably not...He taught me some good things. Even so, I managed to get tickled a couple of times before I learned, on my own, to stay further away from powerlines.


----------



## clearance

Tom, look at what you said, speaking of tools. HIS MITT GOT JAMMED IN THE THROTTLE MECHANISM WHICH LED TO A KICKBACK WHICH CUT HIS ROPE...you said it. Read what you said again, how is that twisted? Further more maybe kickback can be stopped on an 020 by using two hands, not on a big saw which is why you should cut properly no matter what. And again, what target is just as dangerous as a powerline?


----------



## Tom Dunlap

Chain brake would have hit his second hand.

Second tie in would have kept him from falling even if his rope was cut.

Once again, you're commenting on things that you have no information about. Jeff and I have spent a lot of time over the years talking about his close call. To the extent of acting out the way he was positioned. He KNOWS that two hands would have prevented the saw from jumping, gloves or not. AND!!! he knows that sooner or later, cutting one handed would have resulted in cutting his rope at one time or another. 

Answered your other question.


----------



## clearance

Tom, if you were being cross examined on the witness stand, any decent lawyer could easily force you to admit that the gloves caused the accident. Yes, using two hands might have stopped the kickback, yes being tied in twice would have prevented the fall, but the accident was primarily caused by the loss of control, which was caused by the mitts, as you have already said. No need to for semantics, or putting a spin on it. If you came up with a better example it would mean something, I'll give you one, a few years ago a guy at work cut the tips of the fingers on his left hand with his 020, cutting and holding branches. I know about Ma Bell, deregulation did her in, no?


----------



## 1I'dJak

best one handed saw i saw: was running a crew of high school kids, we introduced them to forestry work: pruning, stand thinning, planting and some campsite work...anyways, we were bucking and splitting firewood for a campsite, i turn a see young lady kneeling on the ground, one hand on the log, on hand on a dull husky 365 with and 18' bar...told her it was her time to stack the wood... it was kinda crazy now that i think of it... these 16-17 year olds, boys and girls with 365's cutting down 15-20 yr old trees...one girl probably weighed 90lbs with her caulks, buckin pants, and hardhat... therefore she was given the 257!


----------



## tam

sal b said:


> i wouldnt be surprised if stihl lawyers make them stop selling yellow chains


 man! i was gonna quote this one first!


----------



## sal b

BoesTreeService said:


> The gun manufacturers continue to make guns that are easily converted to a fully automatic, which is totally against the law, when they could easily make them so that they could not be converted. The make the gun specifically so it can be converted, then put out a manual saying dont ever do it.
> 
> .


 i f guns are so easy to convert where are all the crimes committed with full auto guns? the big media always classifies semi auto guns as full auto because it helps push their anti gun agenda. i live in NY and you can still buy assault weapons as long as they have no folding stocks, bayonet and flash suppressor. believe me if a crime was committed with a full auto in NY a real full auto the NY Times would be all over it. its not a problem


----------



## clearance

*cut myself bad ---pysch*



Bermie said:


> Injuries using top handled chainsaws with one hand exceed all other kinds of chainsaw injuries combined!


Went back and found this, funny how far some will go. A fully automatic weapon sure would be a blast, not here, soon all guns will be banned, like they are in England, where soon all top handed saws will be banned because of hysterical "facts" like above.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

*one-handing my 200t*

The point that Stihl lawyers, not Stihl engineers write that safety manual is right on. OF COURSE Stihl engineers designed the saw to be used with one hand on occasion. OF COURSE there is a front handle with a chain brake and using them minimizes the risk that you will cut yourself in most situations. OF COURSE a good understanding of kickback forces, which can only come from extensive experience, must be fully understood. In my work, there is a small place for one-handing the 200t...usually limited to an extended outward or downward reach, with saw parallel to me and away from my ropes...in other words me and mine the #@$% out of the way. Thanks to this forum I have learned of the reputation for this 200T to cut experienced operators so I will be even more weary now. At this point, only thing I don't like about the saw is that your hands are so close together when running it even with two hands. Many call the cost a draw back but if you're getting into that saw you're probably doing some pricey work and that thing will have paid for itself by next week...don't sweat it. But one-handing like when cutting branches, just to hang on to them? Cross cut, kill your saw and break the thing off with both hands. Wrap a sling and rig it off to the trunk until you can kill your saw and ready yourself to position or throw it, anything but run that mighty 200t anywhere near your body parts to save 20 seconds.

Since the big danger is no front hand to trigger the chain brake, what about a design with a chainbrake on the rear handle as well? Maybe your thumb rests in it or something?


----------



## tam

''But one-handing like when cutting branches, just to hang on to them? Cross cut, kill your saw and break the thing off with both hands. Wrap a sling and rig it off to the trunk until you can kill your saw and ready yourself to position or throw it, anything but run that mighty 200t anywhere near your body parts to save 20 seconds.''

dude, i reckon i will take that advice of yours on board. i've got a bad habit of doing that.


----------



## mightyoak

after just purchasing a new Husqvarna chain, I had some down time, so I read every word on the printed material,enclosed with the chain. this information will "cut" down on chainsaw accidents, while manually climbing.[do not use chainsaws while in trees.]


----------



## johnstr1

Yup, top handled saws are classed as specialist user only (very expensive here too, reflects their special status) and one has to be certificated to even buy one here in the UK. Also, they are to be used ONLY up the tree, not allowed for groundwork. You can't even use one in a platform bucket, only rope and harness. That said, we all use them on the ground, they are just too practical for small jobs, they're perfect for long stringy shrubs like Rhododendron, pull it up clear of the muck with one hand, cut it with the other. 

I've always found the best defence is what you have between your ears. I think the main problem with these saws is people "forget" that they are a serious tool , familiarity breeds contempt and all that. If you just remember to keep your self out of the "firing line" as much as is possible, you are going to be ok. We all get some kickback from time to time for example, but if you just think about what you're doing, allow for the possibility, and it whistles past your ear, not buries itself in your forehead. And only use them one handed when you have no other choice. I think it comes down to self discipline and common sense, though I accept that isn't always used. I had a colleague who tried to cut string on the small circular saw in the mill. Horrifying to watch when you ralise what they are trying to do and can't get to them in time.

Oh well, I've waffled on enough. Just take care you lot.

TJ


----------



## johnstr1

*Ms200*

I think Fireaxman has hit the nail on the head, Stihl are just covering themselves legally, they KNOW the saw is intended for one handed use, they just won't say so. 

TJ


----------



## Bermie

clearance said:


> Went back and found this, funny how far some will go. A fully automatic weapon sure would be a blast, not here, soon all guns will be banned, like they are in England, where soon all top handed saws will be banned because of hysterical "facts" like above.



So what, Jack Kenyon , who's been teaching arborists for God knows how many years is a perveyor of 'hysterical' facts? He taught me, he did the research as did the HSE in the UK and you're calling it 'hysterical'?

Before you quote me buddy, do your own research. 

I've said somewhere before, no matter how you climb, what you use, one or two hands, braided or twisted, steel core or rope, WHATEVER, just before you make that cut, pause for a moment and ask youself, 'what will happen if this goes wrong? Will potential kickback be clear of me and my attachment point, will the big bastard chunk fall away from me and my groundie, et. etc. If you are happy, cut away and don't blame the machinery if it goes tits up because YOU made the decision to hold a saw with one hand or rig a massive chunk with string for rope.


----------



## clearance

Bermie said:


> So what, Jack Kenyon , who's been teaching arborists for God knows how many years is a perveyor of 'hysterical' facts? He taught me, he did the research as did the HSE in the UK and you're calling it 'hysterical'?
> 
> Before you quote me buddy, do your own research.
> 
> I've said somewhere before, no matter how you climb, what you use, one or two hands, braided or twisted, steel core or rope, WHATEVER, just before you make that cut, pause for a moment and ask youself, 'what will happen if this goes wrong? Will potential kickback be clear of me and my attachment point, will the big bastard chunk fall away from me and my groundie, et. etc. If you are happy, cut away and don't blame the machinery if it goes tits up because YOU made the decision to hold a saw with one hand or rig a massive chunk with string for rope.


I never rig massive any thing or even big, can't remember why I said hysterical, I must have meant it. If I cut myself I have no one to blame but myself.


----------



## wradman

*reply*

It's Not The Gun That Kills You If You Haven't Figured It Out Yet, It' S Got Nothing To Do With The Saw If Your Still Having Problems And Finding Answers The Hard Way Step Back And Take A Look At What You Are Doing.


----------



## clearance

Bermie said:


> Injuries using top handled chainsaws with one hand exceed all other kinds of chainsaw injuries combined!


There it is, hysterical it is.


----------



## Bermie

whatever...


----------



## reachtreeservi

wradman said:


> It's Not The Gun That Kills You If You Haven't Figured It Out Yet, It' S Got Nothing To Do With The Saw If Your Still Having Problems And Finding Answers The Hard Way Step Back And Take A Look At What You Are Doing.


Excellent! Well said!


----------



## wradman

:notrolls2: thanks


----------



## tam

you're supposed to have a ticket before you can buy a climbing saw, yeah. but we know that's pure rubbish man.:rockn:


----------



## deanminor35

*Wow!!!!!!!!*



kf_tree said:


> well my star groundman/ropeman got 17 stitch's on his left hand today. i guess we all know how it happened. i was up in a tree and he dissapeared, then another groundy came back and said he cut himself bad. so the first thing we did was rip off his company t shirt and fired him, then gave him bus fare.


 
what a ####!!!!!!!!


----------



## Grace Tree

*Your username should have been gravedigger*

Time to dig up old, dead threads?
Phil


----------



## derwoodii

One handed use, sadly some numbers here say all too many do and fail. Hope yer bloke mends well and fast.


----------

