# public awareness of tree business practices?



## imagineero (Oct 1, 2012)

Not a very good title, but couldn't come up with anything else. 

You guys know the story. I went out and quoted a job a few weeks back, a difficult removal in a good area. Really nice yard, very little access but I could manage it with a 50T crane. Gave the guy 2 prices - one with no yard damage using the crane and one dragging it all out. Warned him that the yard would be destroyed, house paint scratched up, pavers and plants damaged etc. Price difference was $3700 vs $4200 by crane. Showed all my paperwork, insurance, explained that the job was complex and that he should compare quotes and get back to me but be sure that the other contractors were suitably qualified.

Called him back yesterday and he admitted he'd gone with another company. They said they could do it by hand and that there would be no damage. He showed my quote and they beat it by $200. Cut a long story short; fence, shed and yard destroyed, damage to house, gardens destroyed, half the trees are still there and he paid them at the end of the day on the promise they would return the next day. They never did, now he cant find them. There was no insurance. Wants me to come clean up (I declined), but he's looking at least another couple thousand to remove the rest, and the damage is estimated at about $5k not including the lawn/garden.

I'm posting from australia, but guessing that you guys stateside are in a very similar position. Our industry has rules, but they are rarely enforced. As a result, we have unlicensed uninsured hacks with no real training who 'match any quote' because they have no idea how to quote. You know the types - cutting from a ladder, and every cut is a roll of the dice. Some are just out and out cheats too - get deposits up front and never return, or do half a job, collect the cash with a promise to return the next day and never come back. Many of these guys door knock and prey on the elderly.

So what to do about it? The government really isn't going to chase this up, so I started thinking maybe a public awareness campaign? Similar things helped cleanup the plumbing and building industry years ago... Mostly it was scare tactics. Video of flood damaged houses with the caption 'don't risk it - use a licensed plumber' etc. 

Have you guys seen anything like this, or think it would work?

I'm thinking about doing up a brochure and handing it out with all my quotes. Just a short and to the point one page affair with dot points that lays it all out. Maybe put it on some websites, some videos on youtube, try to get other tree guys to hand it out too. Would be great if councils started handing it out. If money was available maybe some ads in the paper or street signs in the areas I work in. Any other ideas?


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## imagineero (Oct 1, 2012)

Here's some copy I just put together. It's a draft and the details are relevant to my state and would need to be changed for yours. 

Hiring a tree company to trim or remove your trees can be a frightening experience. The industry is not like other trades in nsw - building, plumbing, mechanics etc which are covered by a licensing system and a governing body which gives you protection. It is currently an unregulated industry and the skill and level of service provided varies widely. While most companies are properly certified, insured and honest, there are many unlicensed uninsured operators who cause accidents and property damage each year, as well as some companies who just plain lie cheat and steal. This happens to many people each year, don't let yourself be one of them;




Plan ahead;

1
Find out if you need a permit. In most cases you will. Your contractor can advise you, but don't be afraid to follow this up with a call to your council who can tell you for sure. There are large fines for you and the contractor if work is done without a permit, and if the council cannot find the contractor you may get both fines.

2
Get a couple of quotes to ensure that nobody is overcharging you. If you are elderly, living alone or just a little frightened by the process then have a friend come round to be with you during the quotes. Never allow yourself to be pressured into doing things you dont want to do. Some dishonest companies will try to push you into cutting it now for a cheaper price.

3
Try to checkup on the reputation of the companies who have quoted. Ask friends and and neighbours for their reccomendations where possible. Council cannot legally reccomend a speific tree company to you.


avoid the problem;

1
get copies of certification, and insurance even if you are paying cash. If they can't show them to you or don't want to give you a copy then they probably don't have it, or it's fake. Supplying false documents is fraud. The certificate required for tre work in most areas is a 'certificate of arboriculture Level 2' or higher. The company will also require 2 types of insurance; public liability and workers compensation. Be sure that the WIC code on the workers compensation is 952520 Amenity Tree Services. Gardeners and handymen are not covered to perform this type of work under their insurance. Be sure that the company names all match and that there is an address and the competent person is named.

2
get a written and signed contract on what work will be done and for how much. Make sure that removal of all wood is specified in the contract, and what level of cleanup you are paying for as well as coverage for damage.

3
Never pay any money before the job is done


On the day;

1
get clear photos of the condition of anything near the tree - your house, roof, fence, yard. This evidence can be useful if there is a dispute over whether damage had occured before the job started. Try to be at home during the day the work is done if you can. You don't need to watch like a hawk, but do be aware of what is going on.

2
Do record the license plates of any vehicles that arrive - trucks, vehicles, chippers. This can save you if the company you have hired has fake paperwork and runs off after causing damage to your property.

3
never pay money up front, or before the job is finished. If the job goes into a second day, don't pay until the job is completed. If the contractor becomes pushy, agressive or threatens you, don't get into an argument. Go inside, and call the police.



Watch out for the warning signs
Don't be tempted by the offer of a cheap price! If the company won't give you a contract, has no paperwork, is pushy and asks for cash upfront then look elsewhere. It may end up costing you many thousands of dollars in cleanup and repairs!


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## les-or-more (Oct 1, 2012)

Talk to the homeowner I would think this is the perfect time to get pictures and a testimonial for your brochure.


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## Naked Arborist (Oct 1, 2012)

I know one thing I will always be doing from now on and you could have done it to. Take pics of the estimate, take pics before and after the job is done. It will protect you as a business owner if they should not pay in the end. I had one prick last year that would not pay because I did not put in the contract that he wanted a huge discount not to remove the wood. When all was said and done the cops say oh well he got ya. They put it to me like this. go back and finish the job and we bet you still don't get paid. Cut your losses now and walk away before you get deeper into it for more time. They were right. I was better of to just eat the few hours I had in it and walk away. Not a big enough job to chase money over. The thing that burned me the most was the guy gets all bad and tough guy with me on his front porch. He is about 5 ft nothing and real smart mouth. Twenty years younger and I would have knocked his teeth out. Good thing tho he was a lawyer I found out from the twp when I went to file against him at the court house. they told me the same thing the cops said. Basically the guy has done this before to landscapers so his day will come. I never got paid.
If you had pics of the job you gave the estimate on it would have been a great selling point to be able to return there for more pics to show the damage done to future clients. Show the before and after carnage left behind buy the hacks to your potential customers. It will happen again and you will have the pics to show about this time around. This should help you seal the deal with all the other good info provided here in the post before mine. 

"Pics don't lie but hacks usually do"


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## imagineero (Oct 1, 2012)

I think a sensible plain english contract is a great idea and protects both sides equally. Mine is nothing fancy - it just details which trees and what work will be done, what level of cleanup. Yes or no to removal of wood and stump grinding etc, and to what depth. A couple basic explanations about sawdust and minor damage to grass. 

It has come in handy a couple times before, but I think mostly it would be of benefit to homeowners agains unscrupulous contractors. I've only had a couple of bad customers ever, and even they paid.

Shaun


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## lone wolf (Oct 1, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> I know one thing I will always be doing from now on and you could have done it to. Take pics of the estimate, take pics before and after the job is done. It will protect you as a business owner if they should not pay in the end. I had one prick last year that would not pay because I did not put in the contract that he wanted a huge discount not to remove the wood. When all was said and done the cops say oh well he got ya. They put it to me like this. go back and finish the job and we bet you still don't get paid. Cut your losses now and walk away before you get deeper into it for more time. They were right. I was better of to just eat the few hours I had in it and walk away. Not a big enough job to chase money over. The thing that burned me the most was the guy gets all bad and tough guy with me on his front porch. He is about 5 ft nothing and real smart mouth. Twenty years younger and I would have knocked his teeth out. Good thing tho he was a lawyer I found out from the twp when I went to file against him at the court house. they told me the same thing the cops said. Basically the guy has done this before to landscapers so his day will come. I never got paid.
> If you had pics of the job you gave the estimate on it would have been a great selling point to be able to return there for more pics to show the damage done to future clients. Show the before and after carnage left behind buy the hacks to your potential customers. It will happen again and you will have the pics to show about this time around. This should help you seal the deal with all the other good info provided here in the post before mine.
> 
> "Pics don't lie but hacks usually do"



Did you slip on your way off the porch and fall and get hurt?


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## treemandan (Oct 6, 2012)

I can't stand it how guys price these kinds of job " competitively" while explaining how not one blade of grass will be bent. 

Imagineero, what you desribed as a 4200.00 job sounds more reasonable at 8k.


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## treemandan (Oct 6, 2012)

With these big jobs hopes are dashed, dreams are crushed, bottomlines are defiled and lunch is skipped. In fact lunch ain't even ever in the gameplan.

Yeah, I am all for telling the customer how its going to be with no sugar added and why should you add it? You want to tell them the flowers are going to be OK, the rhododren is not going to get squashed and you are going to do it all affordably? The job is yours.


"They got what they deserved"

Dan Nelson, circa: a long time ago.


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## RAG66 (Nov 9, 2012)

treemandan said:


> With these big jobs hopes are dashed, dreams are crushed, bottomlines are defiled and lunch is skipped. In fact lunch ain't even ever in the gameplan.
> 
> Yeah, I am all for telling the customer how its going to be with no sugar added and why should you add it? You want to tell them the flowers are going to be OK, the rhododren is not going to get squashed and you are going to do it all affordably? The job is yours.
> 
> ...



I have many customers who are so relieved that I do not sugar coat the job. I am 3/4 to full scale on most job estimates. I don't make any attempts to mislead customers about possible damage. What we do is calculated risk.... I lost a job to a high volume contractor recently, I know what the result will be.


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## Aristol (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes, i think we need to make people aware about such tree business practices, so, that they could also work for the cause and try to co-operate the proceedings. As there are a lot of hurdles in way through, which need to rectified.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 26, 2012)

How does one smash a fence all the flowers the shed and the house ? I mean did they hire Helen Kellers brother or something , sounds a bit weird , I mean everyone bites it sometimes and may break a gutter or maybe smash a rhodi but all that sounds a bit much !


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## ShermanC (Jan 9, 2013)

*We have talked about this challenge a few months or years ago.*

 I agree that it would help customers mainly residential property owners to be better informed about our industry. However, to be the town crier would consume your time and the message would need repeating yearly because of one word: change. We got into arboriculture because we love trees, we want the occupation, we want to serve others and we know this requires making a profit. 

Our forum has emptied and few coffee pots or coolers of soda or beer about this challenge. When we run out of coffee or beer we agree that 1. We cannot be captain of the world, 2. We are not in this work to give the store away, 3. We need to constantly sharpen our estimating and selling skills, 4. We need to stand in front of or beside the customer long enough for him or her to accept the estimate as the job has been proposed and so they won't delay the decision to let a fly by night operator cut your throat by $200 (I lost a job four years ago with a memer of my Church for the same amount and in similar circumstances!). 5. If they want to lowball your estimate you don't need the troubles they will create later by working for them. 6. We're out of coffee so let's get to work.

Sherman


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## Naked Arborist (Jan 11, 2013)

lone wolf said:


> Did you slip on your way off the porch and fall and get hurt?



He lives close by and "good things come to those who wait patiently." I may need to stop by after our next ice storm this year.


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## ShermanC (Jan 12, 2013)

*What goes around comes around...*



Naked Arborist said:


> Good thing tho he was a lawyer I found out from the twp when I went to file against him at the court house. they told me the same thing the cops said. Basically the guy has done this before to landscapers so his day will come. I never got paid.
> If you had pics of the job you gave the estimate on it would have been a great selling point to be able to return there for more pics to show the damage done to future clients.
> ANOTHER SIMILAR CASE, ABOUT AN UPHOLSTERED SPEEDBOAT
> An upholstery shop owner named Jim refused my offer to deposit on Naugahyde to repair our torn truck seat and then he gave this story. His shop is near a big lake and serves lots of weekenders who have vacation homes. This case happened with a braggard-type attorney from a big city who prepaid $700 for special order Naugahyde, saying he would pay the balance of labor estimated at $2,000 to $2,500 when he picked up the boat. The shop gave him satisfactory lead time to bring money and pick up the boat. On pickup day the lawyer's daughter came for the boat but her car didn't have a towing hitch and she said her checkbook was at the lake house. The courteous honest shop owner offered to tow it to the lake. They launched and she took off not to be seen again. I can't remember what Jim did with the boat trailer. He called the attorney at his office and asked for a check. The attorney replied, "Once you released the boat and it was in the water the deal was legally finished, so if you want any ore ones come and get it. Well, Jim was too kind, yet he kept calling the attorney who refused to take his calls. Then some time later the attorney brought his grandson to the lake area to hunt turkey. His gun was in the back seat of the four door truck, loaded and cocked but the safety was not engaged. He reached for the gun and it went off unexpectedly and killed the attorney in front of his grandson. Call it a fair deal even though Jim never got paid; life is sometimes strange. What goes around comes around.


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## ShermanC (Mar 21, 2013)

*Homeowner got robbed by another tree service employee*

I estimated and sold two jobs today, one for a customer who had tried two other services in the area resulting in a bad taste in the customer's mouth for local tree service providers. As it was described I wondered what precautions homeowners could take to prevent such a risky situation for theft. The first company selected had sent a crew of three, one of which was an employee who displayed a bad attitude. The customer ordered the employee off the property and he became very belligerent. The work continued and the crew left work unfinished. Soon after, on a weekday, the house was broken into and belongings stolen. Law enforcement did little to investigate the theft and the customer ordered an alarm system. The second contractor left the job site with work unfinished and would not come back to finish their work.

Hearing this story made me wonder if homeowners ever ask a contractor to provide names, address, phone numbers and DL numbers of every crewperson who sets foot on their property. The growth and audacity of crime today makes me comfortable with such a request, to protect both us, the workers, and to assure the customer of our integrity. If a contractor refused such information to me, I would likely cancel their work without being upset and seek another contractor.


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