# Full skip semi-chisel? Gettin paid to cut stumps.



## bitzer (Feb 14, 2014)

Yep I'm going to be flush cutting stumps once the snow is gone. Should be good fill in during break up. It was a job I logged in a county park last winter. They had strict stump height regulations when I cut it. 12" for sawtimber. 4" for pulp. I basically clear cut 5-6 acres and they had me leave 5-6 large oak trees per acre. At the time they planned to leave the stumps and brush cut around them to maintain it during the summer. The first snow we had last year was a wet one and froze hard to the trees. Every damn tree I had to chop out with my axe before I could cut it and attempt to get their stump heights. I told them when I was done I would not be happy if they decided they needed to flush cut the stumps. Well like I predicted brush cutting around all those stumps didn't work too well. Wonder why. Anyway I got a call from the county to put a bid on the job. 250-300 stumps. Due to the fact that it is an indian burial ground the soil can not be disturbed by equipment. So its just flush cut the stumps to about 2" above ground level. Anyway I'd like to run a semi-chisel full skip. I suppose I could just call some manufacturers, but its more fun to ask you guys and I may learn something. I've also seen the carbide tipped chains although they are so damn expensive and I've heard they cut slow. Thoughts? Suggestions? I won the bid by the way. They called me because they knew I would bid to get it.


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## mdavlee (Feb 14, 2014)

Stihl has it. I think its RMF.


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## JakeG (Feb 14, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Stihl has it. I think its RMF.



That is Correct!


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## mdavlee (Feb 14, 2014)

Carlton makes good semi chisel chain also if you can find it.


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## HuskStihl (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't know nothing about cutting trees down, but I do flush cut a bunch. Oregon JGX full skip chisel works fine, if you keep the top plate less than thirty degrees it seems to last decently well. What I find super important is oiling. My 385 is not a great stumping saw, kinda smoky on the big ones. Thats the main reason I picked up the 394. Chain seems to last much better. I feel for you. Stumping is boring as **** and murder on your back. On a still day, you are also sucking smoke like crazy. This wasn't really a cheerful post, sorry.


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## bitzer (Feb 14, 2014)

Thank you boys! I'd like to get a 3120 for the occasion but I can't really justify that. I got rid of my 394 too. It'll have to be an old 390. This is going to be high production stumpin Jon! I'm hoping for 50 a day. Time will tell. I'll be doing it in the rain most likely. 30-40 degrees kind of thing. I see Oregon has a full skip semi chisel. It has bumper links though. I will have to do some more digging.

Nice stump Jon! Burl? hehe.


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## HuskStihl (Feb 14, 2014)

Water


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## treeslayer2003 (Feb 14, 2014)

semi is def. the ticket i'd say....beter get a few loops and buncha files.


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## Philbert (Feb 14, 2014)

300 stumps?

Why can't you use a small stump grinder and buzz them flush with the surface?

Philbert


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## HuskStihl (Feb 14, 2014)

Philbert said:


> 300 stumps?
> 
> Why can't you use a small stump grinder and buzz them flush with the surface?
> 
> Philbert


Didn't you ever see _poltergeist_ Philbert


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## northmanlogging (Feb 14, 2014)

full skip semi is pretty much my chain for everything..

I've heard that upping the displacement and going with .404 chain is the ticket to dirty hard wood, never tried it myself. Perhaps you can find an older 90-100+cc saw for a reasonable price so your not to worried about smoking it after 2-3 weeks? Then turn around and see if you can get a premium here on AS on account of your "fame"... sign it with one of them silver sharpies and take some cheesy blue steel glossy prints... never know.


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## JakeG (Feb 15, 2014)

bitzer, how are your Stihl chain prices? The dealer by the mill is on par with Oregon online prices, possibly a dollar or two more per loop.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

Philbert said:


> 300 stumps?
> 
> Why can't you use a small stump grinder and buzz them flush with the surface?
> 
> Philbert


That was part of the deal. No equipment. At the pre-bid meeting a guy asked if he could run a 4 wheeler around to pack his fuel and oil and what not. They said no which I found funny cause I had to run the skidder around to pick up my logs when I logged it. I cut about 70mbf and 80-90 cords of pulp. I also had a representative from the University of Milwaukee watching me at all times during the harvest. This land has some of the best preserved indian mounds in the state and it is a super sensitive issue publicly. So its just a saw and me, which is fine.


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## imagineero (Feb 15, 2014)

full skip .404 for sure. Sharpen at 20 degrees, or even 15 if you're hand filing. If you're machine sharpening then go with 20 degrees and adjust the head to about 75. Keep your rakers set. Won't win any speed records, but it will work well and last a long time. Won't need much sharpening to bring it good again either. I've tried 3/8, .404 and both types of carbide chain (RD and RDR) and the .404 wins in all categories; speed, price and ease of use. You can drive it with that 390 no worries, just take your time and let the saw do the work.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Water


You've stumped me on this one Jon. Pun intended.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Water


You've stumped me on this one Jon. Pun intended.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

imagineero said:


> full skip .404 for sure. Sharpen at 20 degrees, or even 15 if you're hand filing. If you're machine sharpening then go with 20 degrees and adjust the head to about 75. Keep your rakers set. Won't win any speed records, but it will work well and last a long time. Won't need much sharpening to bring it good again either. I've tried 3/8, .404 and both types of carbide chain (RD and RDR) and the .404 wins in all categories; speed, price and ease of use. You can drive it with that 390 no worries, just take your time and let the saw do the work.



Well now you've given me some ideas to play with. Can the carbide chain be sharpened? I'd probably run a 32" bar. Most of the stumps would be inside of the tip that way. I'd hate to buy a new bar for this, but if its that much better. Typically I buy my chain in 25ft increments from my dealer. I've got a an older 390 that has a lot of time on it, but still has the grunt I know. I think I will open the muffler up even more than it is and pour some more fuel through it.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

JakeG said:


> bitzer, how are your Stihl chain prices? The dealer by the mill is on par with Oregon online prices, possibly a dollar or two more per loop.


 I haven't bought Stihl chain in years and the dealers around here really know how to gouge. 95% of who they service are homeowner types that buy two loops a year kind of thing. I think I went through 200-250 feet of chain last year. I get a discount at my Husky dealer. I will see what he can do.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> full skip semi is pretty much my chain for everything..
> 
> I've heard that upping the displacement and going with .404 chain is the ticket to dirty hard wood, never tried it myself. Perhaps you can find an older 90-100+cc saw for a reasonable price so your not to worried about smoking it after 2-3 weeks? Then turn around and see if you can get a premium here on AS on account of your "fame"... sign it with one of them silver sharpies and take some cheesy blue steel glossy prints... never know.


That's a thought. I'm hoping to only have a week in there though. 50 stumps a day sounds reasonable. I could be shootin a little high there. I don't know. I was cutting 30 sawtimber trees in there a day, plus the pulp. So 1 long cut per stump and 50 sound more than reasonable. Sharpness issues are going to be the biggest thing. I plan to bring my grinder onsite. I think I will need it. As for the "fame" sales- I've got a Stihl 440/460BB with about 2 million bf under its belt if anyone wants it! Muffler is triple ported. Cylinder has the standard woods port job. Shes kind of in pieces right now. I'll start the bidding at 50 cents! Oh and its an UGLY lookin machine. Tensioner doesn't work to well. Starter is kinda limp. I gave the full wrap and big dogs away. Hmmm. Other selling points... Um It was never hit by a tree or bucked log. Never fell outa the back of a pick up. I did use it to fight goatman in the swamps once. street cred there.


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## Philbert (Feb 15, 2014)

bitzer said:


> You've stumped me on this one Jon. Pun intended.


HS might be implying to wash/rinse the bark first to remove some of the sand. Maybe use a garden sprayer. 

Philbert


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## 1270d (Feb 15, 2014)

Cut in a little passed center and then rotate around the stump with your cut. That way your chain is in clean wood 99% of the cut and its only interaction with dirt or grit is when the chain is leaving the wood. This way there is minimal pressure between the dirt/wood/cutting face. If you just start cutting away you drag every bit of grit through the whole cut.

Make sense? It works for me


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## rwoods (Feb 15, 2014)

I think he means the stump is a water oak as opposed to a burl oak. Ron


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## HuskStihl (Feb 15, 2014)

bitzer said:


> You've stumped me on this one Jon. Pun intended.





Philbert said:


> HS might be implying to wash/rinse the bark first to remove some of the sand. Maybe use a garden sprayer.
> 
> Philbert


Philbert, you should know by now I never suggest anything truly useful


rwoods said:


> I think he means the stump is a water oak as opposed to a burl oak. Ron


Ronnie Woods is the winner!


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## northmanlogging (Feb 15, 2014)

bitzer said:


> That's a thought. I'm hoping to only have a week in there though. 50 stumps a day sounds reasonable. I could be shootin a little high there. I don't know. I was cutting 30 sawtimber trees in there a day, plus the pulp. So 1 long cut per stump and 50 sound more than reasonable. Sharpness issues are going to be the biggest thing. I plan to bring my grinder onsite. I think I will need it. As for the "fame" sales- I've got a Stihl 440/460BB with about 2 million bf under its belt if anyone wants it! Muffler is triple ported. Cylinder has the standard woods port job. Shes kind of in pieces right now. I'll start the bidding at 50 cents! Oh and its an UGLY lookin machine. Tensioner doesn't work to well. Starter is kinda limp. I gave the full wrap and big dogs away. Hmmm. Other selling points... Um It was never hit by a tree or bucked log. Never fell outa the back of a pick up. I did use it to fight goatman in the swamps once. street cred there.



the 390's are a 90cc saw right? should be enough, Throw a new .404 tip on an old bar and a new clutch rim, be ready to get stupid.

I'd give you a Dollar for that saw if you think it might run again, but you have to sign it and send some press photos


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## HuskStihl (Feb 15, 2014)

Bitz, please disregard my earlier post. If you can get all the way thru with a 32, you won't need more than the 390. You'll want to stick a half wrap on it. I like dogging in just above the dirt, angling the bar up a couple inches and rolling thru. The stumps are slightly angled, but the chain stays out of the dirt. You can cut 50 little stumps a day easy, the hard part is dealing with them afterward. Who's responsible for cleaning up the heavy little buggers.
Pure newbie opinions........1)carbide chain is too expensive and hard to sharpen to make it worthwhile for this project
2) while I'm sure 404 is awesome, I wouldn't buy a whole new setup for this project. A 385 with a good chisel chain will handle a 25" stump in about 35 seconds (22 if you happen to have a masterminded 394 and a super mike chain handy). If you keep the tip out of the dirt, you should get 10 stumps done before you just can't stand the chain any more. Grab a diet coke and some beef jerky, touch up the chain and do it again. Unlike most advice I give, I have actually stumped 30 in a day preparing for the stump grinder


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

Jon- Kinda figured it was a water oak tho we don't have those here. I meant you takin that stump for burl? I figured under a minute per stump really. It was tough bidding this job. I figured about 10 bucks a stump. Other bids were double that. Its public record what I'm makin anyway so I don't mind sayin. The stumps stay where they lay. That was part of the deal. I like that part.

North- I don't know why I was thinkin I'd need a new bar. Just dumb. That sounds like the ticket really. The 390 is an 88cc saw. With my mods its probably runnin like 110ccs. It'll do.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

I wonder if I should bolt some extra pipe to the muffler to blow it farther away from me. I've done some big stumps and that does suck, breathin in the exhaust.


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## HuskStihl (Feb 15, 2014)

bitzer said:


> Jon- Kinda figured it was a water oak tho we don't have those here. I meant you takin that stump for burl? I figured under a minute per stump really. It was tough bidding this job. I figured about 10 bucks a stump. Other bids were double that. Its public record what I'm makin anyway so I don't mind sayin. The stumps stay where they lay. That was part of the deal. I like that part.
> 
> North- I don't know why I was thinkin I'd need a new bar. Just dumb. That sounds like the ticket really. The 390 is an 88cc saw. With my mods its probably runnin like 110ccs. It'll do.


That's a really good gig. I forgot, was 4" the max allowed height? If so, you could keep the chain pretty clean, and depending on acreage, easily do 100 a day. Just sharpen up a bunch of old chains and hit it


bitzer said:


> I wonder if I should bolt some extra pipe to the muffler to blow it farther away from me. I've done some big stumps and that does suck, breathin in the exhaust.


I was thinking you were doing the big (42" bar, 5 minutes, wedges) stumps. I wouldn't worry about smoke on the ones you're doing. Smart bid!


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## Gologit (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm no expert on removing stumps...I usually use a Cat or explosives...but would it work to cross-hatch the top of the stump deep enough vertically that when you start the regular cut you're only removing a section at a time? I've done that on some oak stumps and it sure saved all that heavy lifting and the wear and tear on the saw.


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## mdavlee (Feb 15, 2014)

Bob the double hump raker won't hurt anything stumping unless you have to file it down past the hump then it will take a little more work. If you could get a .404" tip and swap it on one of the bars and then swap it back later on. Might save some money over a new bar.


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## Sagetown (Feb 15, 2014)

Philbert said:


> HS might be implying to wash/rinse the bark first to remove some of the sand. Maybe use a garden sprayer.
> 
> Philbert



Yep; Pre-Prepping all those stumps with a spray of water would save some chain. Don't know if it'd be worth it or not though.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2014)

Most of the stumps are around 16-24". So at 2" above the ground could be more like 24-32". Icepick mentioned to me that a back pack blower would clean out around the root swells pretty well.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 15, 2014)

if yer going to have the chain grinder on hand, then just stick with the 3/8 chain you been running.

And rather then mess around with wrestling the cut of bit of stump, I'll stick a wedge or 2 in, don't bother beating em just stuff em in by hand, takes most of the weight of the "round" off the bar. When you're done cutting it off the saw will usually slip out the back side and the wedges will pop free pretty quick too.

I think the largest one I've done like this was about 5' tall and 5' in dia. took about 20 minutes with an 066 and a 36" bar, big ugly multi stemmed yard tree...

knowing what I know now I should have called the hardwood dude out and made some coin on it....


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## Trx250r180 (Feb 15, 2014)

this sounds like a misrable time ,like was said before ,when i cut in dirt ,i bore and cut from the inside out ,seems to help my chain live longer


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## 2dogs (Feb 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Bitz, please disregard my earlier post. If you can get all the way thru with a 32, you won't need more than the 390. You'll want to stick a half wrap on it. I like dogging in just above the dirt, angling the bar up a couple inches and rolling thru. The stumps are slightly angled, but the chain stays out of the dirt. You can cut 50 little stumps a day easy, the hard part is dealing with them afterward. Who's responsible for cleaning up the heavy little buggers.
> Pure newbie opinions........1)carbide chain is too expensive and hard to sharpen to make it worthwhile for this project
> 2) while I'm sure 404 is awesome, I wouldn't buy a whole new setup for this project. A 385 with a good chisel chain will handle a 25" stump in about 35 seconds (22 if you happen to have a masterminded 394 and a super mike chain handy). If you keep the tip out of the dirt, you should get 10 stumps done before you just can't stand the chain any more. Grab a diet coke and some beef jerky, touch up the chain and do it again. Unlike most advice I give, I have actually stumped 30 in a day preparing for the stump grinder



Nonsense! It has to be regular Coke. I didn't read the rest of the post.


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## 2dogs (Feb 15, 2014)

Gologit said:


> I'm no expert on removing stumps...I usually use a Cat or explosives...but would it work to cross-hatch the top of the stump deep enough vertically that when you start the regular cut you're only removing a section at a time? I've done that on some oak stumps and it sure saved all that heavy lifting and the wear and tear on the saw.


Not really. Most stumps, at least the low ones have really gnarly wood with the grain running in all directions so cutting down is tough and slow. Worse than cutting regular end grain. Still there are times when that is the only way.

I would use a hard nose bar or have a spare bar. Sometimes using a Pulaski to chip away the bark will save your chain.


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## paccity (Feb 15, 2014)

since i discovered this my saws don't touch stumps. on a 24" stump foot and a half deep sweep roots in five min, spread the mulch , done. have done a lot of private forest where we thinned and stumped to make the land owners private parks look nice with min ground impact. will almost go anywhere you can walk. but at 50k new you have to keep them working.
by the way dougfir stumps are way slower than oaks.


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## madhatte (Feb 18, 2014)

How much per acre does running one of those cost a landowner? I might have just got an idea or something.


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## paccity (Feb 18, 2014)

madhatte said:


> How much per acre does running one of those cost a landowner? I might have just got an idea or something.


100.00 to 125.00 hr. rate go's down the bigger the contract. plus mileage if aways away. really a for low ground disruption. and just put the mass back in the ground.


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## madhatte (Feb 18, 2014)

OK, so ~24" stump is ~5 min, ~$100/hr, that's ~10 stumps/hr, I might have reason to remove several hundred stumps. Gotta think some.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 18, 2014)

Personally I'd go with the 404. All the old fallers swear by it durability wise. Shoot you may like it so much you stick with it for falling. Supposed to last a long time in gritty conditions and something about that wider kerf helps with pinching or something, I forget exactly what the other benefits are. Set chokers on a park job with an AK faller. He said he used the carbide stuff down on a river delta where grit got blown into the bark. Worked good but you wore the chain out before the cutters were used up. I've stumped a few doug fir and spurce rounds. 372 32" 3/8 full skip pulled okay, just couldn't keep a nice strait cut. Was trying for an extra round of firewood out of it.


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## imagineero (Feb 19, 2014)

This thread I started a couple years back contains my long term review of stihl's RDR chain and my impressions of it for cutting funky stuff. Unfortunately most of the meat of the review was photos which are all gone but the reading may still be worthwhile.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/long-term-stihl-rdr-carbide-chain-review.188237/


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## madhatte (Feb 20, 2014)

Looks like we may be in the market for a stump grinder all of a sudden. Funny how I knew off the top of my head what kind of machine to get and how fast it works. Almost like I was thinking about it ahead of time or something.


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## paccity (Feb 20, 2014)

if clearance is not a prob you can get larger machines. mine is 60hp oil burner. on the remote control machines they make a 100hp model same thing as mine but physically bigger . benefits are you can take a walk while you work and if you take a spill with it at least your not on the machine. on anything like this hp is your friend. get a hold of me sometime and you can demo mine. check out carltons site they have some bigger machines , it's only money.


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## madhatte (Feb 22, 2014)

Gub'mint money, gonna let the pencil pushers work this one out. I just hope they come up with something that will work as well on prairie margins as it does inside the fence.


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