# Inside the "Triple Nickel"



## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

My shiny new Husky 555 arrived this afternoon. The most unusual part of this purchase, is that it's a 60cc saw. I'm not normally a fan of 60cc saws. I prefer to use either a 50 or a 70. However, I wanted to get my feet wet in this series of saws, as I've not yet messed with one. I went with the 555 over the 562 for several reasons.


Basically as strong as a 562 after mods.
All orange. No silver case and clutch cover with paint that almost rubs off.
Smaller and lighter.
$100 cheaper to boot!
After taking it out of the box, I really am surprised at just how small this saw is, definitely affirming my decision from that standpoint. It weighs a mere 12# 11.8oz.

I fueled it up, purged it, and it popped on the 2nd pull and started on the 3rd. After a few seconds of warm up, it was running nicely with good throttle response. I have no bar yet for it, so no more running details for now.

This saw is so similar to a 550XP that it's not even funny!




















































EL49 carb




















Definitely not a high compression saw. This is after firing it up, warming it up good, and letting it cool.





Squarish?















TAKE SPECIAL NOTE HERE! Squish is MUCH tighter right on the very end. Miss that, and you might have a head smacker if tightening the squish!


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

I have a Tsumura Tough & Light bar ordered for it. It should be here early/mid next week. Until then, I have no 3/8 small mount Husky bar 

This saw will be getting full modded. Stay tuned for more pics and vids.


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 13, 2014)

Brad how do you think that this saw compares to a Husky 357XL? I am really curious because every 357XL owner that I know says that it is the only Husky that can match or beat a Stihl Ms361.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

opcorn:


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## sunfish (Nov 13, 2014)

Likely the smallest 60cc saw on the market. Looks nice, Brad!



Wood Doctor said:


> Brad how do you think that this saw compares to a Husky 357XL? I am really curious because every 357XL owner that I know says that it is the only Husky that can match or beat a Stihl Ms361.


The previous model, 262xp was/is faster than a 357xp, as is the recent model, 562xp.
But my ported 357xp can whoop em all.


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## Fire8 (Nov 13, 2014)

Brad did you get the package


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## Duane(Pa) (Nov 13, 2014)

How about a build thread minus the brand war drama? opcorn:


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

sunfish said:


> Likely the smallest 60cc saw on the market. Looks nice, Brad!
> 
> 
> The previous model, 262xp was/is faster than a 357xp, as is the recent model, 562xp.
> But my ported 357xp can whoop em all.




Im glad to see your given your 357 some love. I really really liked the ported 359s I had. Having ran a ported 562, 2 ported 359s with Walbro carbs, and a finger ported 262 w modded carb, the 262xp is the ultimate 60cc saw for me.


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## old-cat (Nov 13, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Im glad to see your given your 357 some love. I really really liked the ported 359s I had. Having ran a ported 562, 2 ported 359s with Walbro carbs, and a finger ported 262 w modded carb, the 262xp is the ultimate 60cc saw for me.


 THANK you Bryan, That's the info I've been wanting a loooong time!!


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 13, 2014)

Sorry for the typo, guys. I hit the L instead of the P for the Husky 357XP. You are all very forgiving for vintage fingers at the keyboard. I was torn between a Husky 357XP and a Stihl MS361 about seven years ago. I tossed a coin and bought the 361. Every Husky owner told me that I needed my head examined. Every Stihl owner said that I done right. The rumbles continue...


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## Duane(Pa) (Nov 13, 2014)

I need schooled on the crank stuffers. I think they are listed as differences between the 562/555 and 357/359. What is the theory/purpose of crank stuffers?


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

The fastest 60cc saw I previously built was a 359. I never had the opportunity to compare it to Nik's MS361, but it would have been close.


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

BTW, this thread won't be about "the fastest 60cc saw". I have no other 60cc saws to compare it to. That's not the goal of this thread.


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> I need schooled on the crank stuffers. I think they are listed as differences between the 562/555 and 357/359. What is the theory/purpose of crank stuffers?


I'm not an expert on this topic, but this is how I see it. Higher crankcase compression. Higher transfer velocity. In a stock saw, this equals better throttle response, higher revs, and more peak power. When it came to the 359 and 357...a port 359 certainly didn't miss them.

Feel free to correct me where I may be wrong.


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

Fire8 said:


> Brad did you get the package


This one?


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## KenJax Tree (Nov 13, 2014)

Wood Doctor said:


> Sorry for the typo, guys. I hit the L instead of the P for the Husky 357XP. You are all very forgiving for vintage fingers at the keyboard. I was torn between a Husky 357XP and a Stihl MS361 about seven years ago. I tossed a coin and bought the 361. Every Husky owner told me that I needed my head examined. Every Stihl owner said that I done right. The rumbles continue...


I love my Husky's but i kept my 361.....so did Sawtoll.


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## Fire8 (Nov 13, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> This one?


I was afraid that was going to happen is it ok that was the only box I could find


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

Fire8 said:


> I was afraid that was going to happen is it ok that was the only box I could find


All's well that ends well. It's all here safe and sound


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## SS Sniper (Nov 13, 2014)

Jeeze your picture quality sucks Brad...


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

SS Sniper said:


> Jeeze your picture quality sucks Brad...


I'll try to do better next time


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## sunfish (Nov 13, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Im glad to see your given your 357 some love. I really really liked the ported 359s I had. Having ran a ported 562, 2 ported 359s with Walbro carbs, and a finger ported 262 w modded carb, the 262xp is the ultimate 60cc saw for me.


I ordered a oem 357xp top-end today & have a very clean 359 on the bench.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

Looking forward to seeing this thread develop.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

sunfish said:


> I ordered a oem 357xp top-end today & have a very clean 359 on the bench.


awesome


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## nmurph (Nov 13, 2014)

Wood Doctor said:


> Brad how do you think that this saw compares to a Husky 357XL? I am really curious because every 357XL owner that I know says that it is the only Husky that can match or beat a Stihl Ms361.



I own both...can't tell a penny's worth of difference.


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## nmurph (Nov 13, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> This one?




Yep, bars are the most likely culprit when it comes to "damage" incurred during shipping. The ends of a bar should always get a piece of cardboard or a section of newspaper tightly wrapped on both ends (and I reinforce the ends where the bars lay with multiple layers of tape.


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## nmurph (Nov 13, 2014)

old-cat said:


> THANK you Bryan, That's the info I've been wanting a loooong time!!



His name is Steven or Stephen...but I think he's used to it!!


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Yep, bars are the most likely culprit when it comes to "damage" incurred during shipping. The ends of a bar should always get a piece of cardboard or a section of newspaper tig



agree. I always make a cardboard scabbord and completely encase the bar and tape the hell out of it.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

nmurph said:


> His name is Steven or Stephen...but I think he's used to it!!



Steven- Yes. No problem. everyone calls me bryan even though steven is in the sig. Doesnt bother me at all. Just glad to be here. The breakdown on bryanr2- my name is Richard Steven Bryan II. Ive gone by Steven my entire life though.


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## computeruser (Nov 13, 2014)

Very interested to see how this turns out. Might need to get me one as an Xmas gift...haven't had a ported saw in years, but this one sounds interesting. Wish they'd sell us one with heated handles, though.


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## old-cat (Nov 13, 2014)

sunfish said:


> I ordered a oem 357xp top-end today & have a very clean 359 on the bench.


I'd like to see progress updates on that.


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## Termite (Nov 13, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I fueled it up, purged it, and it popped on the 2nd pull and started on the 3rd. After a few seconds of warm up, it was running nicely with good throttle response. I have no bar yet for it, so no more running details for now.



Watch that clutch with no chain on it. They like to fly!


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

Termite said:


> Watch that clutch with no chain on it. They like to fly!


Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Duane(Pa) (Nov 13, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> agree. I always make a cardboard scabbord and completely encase the bar and tape the hell out of it.


This is outright BS, you have to use the "F' word.....


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## Duane(Pa) (Nov 13, 2014)

Steven packs a mean saw, but I think his wife does most of the work


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> Steven packs a mean saw, but I think his wife does most of the work



HA HA. She refuses to participate in anything saw related. I do use her smart phone to take pics of the saws though.... and she sends me the pics to my email.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 13, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> *Steven packs a mean saw*, but I think his wife does most of the work



It's a "labor of love". (for the saw)


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## Fire8 (Nov 13, 2014)

Was the envelope in there


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## Fire8 (Nov 13, 2014)

Brad Was the envelope in there


nmurph said:


> Yep, bars are the most likely culprit when it comes to "damage" incurred during shipping. The ends of a bar should always get a piece of cardboard or a section of newspaper tightly wrapped on both ends (and I reinforce the ends where the bars lay with multiple layers of tape.


I couldn't because I wouldn't been able to get rest of the stuff in there


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## nmurph (Nov 13, 2014)

Fire8 said:


> Brad Was the envelope in there
> 
> I couldn't because I wouldn't been able to get rest of the stuff in there



Get a bigger box.


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## Fire8 (Nov 13, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Get a bigger box.


Don't want to drive 20 mile to the next town to find a bigger box


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## 04ultra (Nov 13, 2014)

Dat spark plug in this kind of saw are spendy...


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## Full Chisel (Nov 13, 2014)

Wood Doctor said:


> Sorry for the typo, guys. I hit the L instead of the P for the Husky 357XP. You are all very forgiving for vintage fingers at the keyboard. I was torn between a Husky 357XP and a Stihl MS361 about seven years ago. I tossed a coin and bought the 361. Every Husky owner told me that I needed my head examined. Every Stihl owner said that I done right. The rumbles continue...



FWIW, my ported 353 wannabe smoked a stock MS361 last weekend. The Stihl had good mid-range torque but would not hold high RPMs in the cut. He said his chain wasn't real sharp though...I didn't get a good look at it. It had seen some pretty regular use in the past 6-7 years so it probably needs re-ringed. But I couldn't believe the difference of speed in the cut.

That 555 is a sweet looking saw!


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2014)

Fire8 said:


> Was the envelope in there


Yes. It was all there. Thanks!


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## Fire8 (Nov 13, 2014)

About the 555 I like the 60 cc saws ran a friends 262 when they first came out 
I with Steven on the the 262


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## LegDeLimber (Nov 13, 2014)

Brad, Have you got a side view of the solder? Just thinking some folks might benefit from the extra viewpoint.
Been a long time (20+yrs) since I was in a machine shop but that increasingly common, stepped boring job is just pure sh##.
Any person worthy of the title "Lead man" or "Foreman" should have stopped those from ever even getting out of that dept. QC personnel should have at the least checked a few cylinders early in the batch a few points in mid run and some of the last ones.
From the looks of these back-tapered cuts (seems to match the angles of a boring bar insert)
I'd guess someone just tried to skip about 4~7 seconds machine time by not blending the wall to the chamber.
Yeah, yeah, you might have to run a different insert (and bar) to get the roof cut.
And as someone who has spun 30" diam x 1/2" wall, HRS, brake formed tubing with hand welded seams (arrgh. Still leaves me with a strong dislike for flux cored mig wire to this day...) 
I DO appreciate the difference in insert geometries and cutting conditions. 
Granted an 80deg insert is much tougher than a 60deg or 55 in those open port jugs
but taken on the whole, this crap can't be helping the squish turbulence and I can only see it making emissions issues targets harder to cope with when you average it over thousands of units.
Hot spots in the chamber, plus makes for iffy cleanup after machining and then iffy plating.

Sorry for a mini rant guys, It's just been bugging me to see those stepped bores.
In an age when you program a machine to carve a neckid female body, I just cant see any reason for excusing those sloppy cylinders.

A link to the female toro machining video, But it might be considered NSFW
So I'll break the url https://www.youtube * /watch?v=ytFQMEeq3Bk
Just put " .com " back in place of the astrix and remove an added space on each side of it
then you should be good to go.

P.S. Too bad the model has fakes!
and my spelling and grammatical errors are just further proof of why we need the inspectors stations. 
I have no brilliant guesses about my half started sentences that morph into something else.


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## Philbert (Nov 13, 2014)

Gotta love a detailed build thread with lots of pictures!

Philbert


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## Philbert (Nov 13, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Smaller and lighter.
> $100 cheaper to boot!


The Husky specs show the 555 about 1/2 pound lighter than the 562, otherwise, they look pretty close. Anybody know what's in that 1/2 pound?

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Jon1212 (Nov 14, 2014)

Philbert said:


> The Husky specs show the 555 about 1/2 pound lighter than the 562, otherwise, they look pretty close. Anybody know what's in that 1/2 pound?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert


Approximately 8 ounces.


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## CR888 (Nov 14, 2014)

Kool thread Bradley!! l think you will really get that Nickel runnin! This is a saw that may hit the trading post one day and be worth keeping an eye on. l am with you on the 50/70cc combo and sorta see 60cc saws more suited to someone not infected with CAD who only has one saw. Mind you l have a 555 and a 6400 (both stock) and what really stops me from picking them up is that bloody strato gutted ms261 you made me. Today l cut two 20-25" gums and it was holding up to 14900 in the cut but usually above 13k. So its this saw that just kills 60cc stock saws for me but l am interested to see how this 555 turns out. opcorn:opcorn:


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## wigglesworth (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> TAKE SPECIAL NOTE HERE! Squish is MUCH tighter right on the very end. Miss that, and you might have a head smacker if tightening the squish!



Ouch. That's some bad QC right there. 

Easy fix though. Gotta cut the chamber...


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## lwhaples (Nov 14, 2014)

Will enjoy watching this build.


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## mr.finn (Nov 14, 2014)

Definintely following this one.


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

Wood Doctor said:


> Sorry for the typo, guys. I hit the L instead of the P for the Husky 357XP. You are all very forgiving for vintage fingers at the keyboard. I was torn between a Husky 357XP and a Stihl MS361 about seven years ago. I tossed a coin and bought the 361. Every Husky owner told me that I needed my head examined. Every Stihl owner said that I done right. The rumbles continue...



I made the same choise, but 10 years ago, and never regretted it. 

The 357xp was at a slight disadvantage, as it is only 56.5cc, but still weighted like a 60cc saw.....



Btw, use the edit button to fix simple misprints - usually there is no need to make a second post about it.


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I love my Husky's but i kept my 361.....so did Sawtoll.



The MS361 really is a Husky.


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

computeruser said:


> Very interested to see how this turns out. Might need to get me one as an Xmas gift...haven't had a ported saw in years, but this one sounds interesting. Wish they'd sell us one with heated handles, though.


560xpg, or 2260WH in the US! 

It is a bit odd they don't make heated 555/545s, as the did with the 359/353 that they replaced....


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## buzz sawyer (Nov 14, 2014)

Is the angle in the pic or is the spark plug threaded section longer than what I'm used to?


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## MarkEagleUSA (Nov 14, 2014)

buzz sawyer said:


> Is the angle in the pic or is the spark plug threaded section longer than what I'm used to?


It's a smaller (10mm?) thread diameter. Also uses a 5/8 hex to remove.


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

Anyone know if the bar from my JD 66SV would work on this saw? Wish I was home to check.


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## Duane(Pa) (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Anyone know if the bar from my JD 66SV would work on this saw? Wish I was home to check.


should be K095 if you have access to an Oregon Bar Selector on your computer.

edit listing is D176 for the Deere, not sure of differences?




Philbert said:


> The Husky specs show the 555 about 1/2 pound lighter than the 562, otherwise, they look pretty close. Anybody know what's in that 1/2 pound?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert


Crank stuffers...Small mount bar may have less meat to it?


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

Duane(Pa) said:


> Crank stuffers...Small mount bar may have less meat to it?


Smaller cylinder/filter cover. I'm guessing the filter is smaller as well.


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## sachsmo (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Anyone know if the bar from my JD 66SV would work on this saw? Wish I was home to check.




Shouldn't you be working?????????????????


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

Philbert said:


> The Husky specs show the 555 about 1/2 pound lighter than the 562, otherwise, they look pretty close. Anybody know what's in that 1/2 pound?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert




Bar mount area/clutch cover and air filter/top cover, as far as I know.

One part in the oiler also is different, likely to oil 28" bars on the 562 - but that doesn't add any weight of course.


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## nnero (Nov 14, 2014)

Looks like a nice saw, I feel it gets overshadowed by the 562xp. I cant get over the looks of the 562 but that's just me. I like 60cc saws as a do everything saw that's also affordable. That's what drove us to the Dolmar 6100 (and away from Stihl and Jonsered) which has been awesome but I don't think you could do wrong with any new 60cc saw. We do have a gap between the Dolmar and Pioneer P-61 though...Ill be looking forward to more updates and thanks for doing this thread.


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## Termite (Nov 14, 2014)

SawTroll said:


> Bar mount area/clutch cover and air filter/top cover, as far as I know.
> 
> One part in the oiler also is different, likely to oil 28" bars on the 562 - but that doesn't add any weight of course.



Worm wheel which drives the oiler is different.
562 is butt ugly to me.


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

Brad.......

Send me that EL49.


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## stihlaficionado (Nov 14, 2014)

Flippy capped Husky


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## wigglesworth (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Brad.......
> 
> Send me that EL49.



Gotcha a bologna husky with carb troubles, do ya?


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

Who doesn't?


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## sunfish (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Who doesn't?


I doesn't


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

It's amazing to me how well the Stihl MT system works........compared to how poorly the Husky AT system behaves.


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## sunfish (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's amazing to me how well the Stihl MT system works........compared to how poorly the Husky AT system behaves.


I might would trade my AT saw for a like new 365 (old style closed port). Other than that it's a keeper!


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

Termite said:


> Worm wheel which drives the oiler is different.
> 562 is butt ugly to me.



Yes it is - forgot about that. That likely is because of regular vs. small spline drums though - and it can be swapped around as far as I know.


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## Termite (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's amazing to me how well the Stihl MT system works........compared to how poorly the Husky AT system behaves.



That and the better build, quality thing and there you are.


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Who doesn't?





sunfish said:


> I doesn't



Most doesn't!


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## Termite (Nov 14, 2014)

SawTroll said:


> Yes it is - forgot about that. That likely is because of regular vs. small spline drums though - and it can be swapped around as far as I know.


The thickness of the wheel is greater on the 562. Put A 2260 gear on a 562 and one half of the needle bearing is exposed.


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's amazing to me how well the Stihl MT system works........compared to how poorly the Husky AT system behaves.



Well, the MT is the (early) AT - and the MT carb issues has been showing up in the UK.

I suspect is was a bad move to have Zama develop the somewhat different carbs that are needed on those saws....


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## dl5205 (Nov 14, 2014)

Just curious Brad, notice any glaring "quality control" "issues"? Are you considering burning it yet, and getting a creamsickle?

And Why Wouldn't You? HaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> Just curious Brad, notice any glaring "quality control" "issues"? Are you considering burning it yet, and getting a creamsickle?


Only if that step in the squish band is unintentional. BTW, most all of my work saws are Husky.


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## dl5205 (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Only if that step in the squish band is unintentional. BTW, most all of my work saws are Husky.



I meant it with a wink and a nod. But whatever's real, call it.


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 14, 2014)

I am seeing more and more pro loggers with the 562 in the back of the truck ,they must be an ok saw for power if they production log with them ,i am sure they are smaller trees with only a 28 inch bar on them though


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## dl5205 (Nov 14, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I am seeing more and more pro loggers with the 562 in the back of the truck ,they must be an ok saw for power if they production log with them ,i am sure they are smaller trees with only a 28 inch bar on them though



Yeah, but what do pro loggers know? They're too busy making a living to read AS.


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

Randy, have you seen a step in the squishband of these before, or does this look like a defect to you? The very outer edge is only .018", but is more like .025" just in from there.


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## wigglesworth (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Randy, have you seen a step in the squishband of these before, or does this look like a defect to you? The very outer edge is only .018", but is more like .025" just in from there.



Ain't gonna matter once the combustion chamber is cut...


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Ain't gonna matter once the combustion chamber is cut...


I don't often cut the combustion chamber.


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

I see that in lots of saws. 

Just one more reason I cut the squish rather than build pop up pistons.


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

I've seen flats that extend maybe .100", but I've never seen anything like this.


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## wigglesworth (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I've seen flats that extend maybe .100", but I've never seen anything like this.



Just cut it. No worries.


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

Yep......it's an easy thing to do. 

Come on in.......the water is fine.


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## Fire8 (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Yep......it's an easy thing to do.
> 
> Come on in.......the water is fine.


I don't know about that here in okla., The water is cold right now


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## wyk (Nov 14, 2014)

Jon1212 said:


> Approximately 8 ounces.



It's technically closer to 5 ounces


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## Jon1212 (Nov 14, 2014)

Philbert said:


> The Husky specs show the 555 about 1/2 pound lighter than the 562, otherwise, they look pretty close. Anybody know what's in that 1/2 pound?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert





Jon1212 said:


> Approximately 8 ounces.





reindeer said:


> It's technically closer to 5 ounces


Asked, and answered. You're welcome.


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## Fire8 (Nov 14, 2014)

Brad have you started working on the chain for that 555 you better start it's going to take awhile do I need to send a pic of the file to use


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## SawTroll (Nov 14, 2014)

Different scales (and individual saws) seems to come up with different results - which hardly is a surprice. If you really care about the exact weight, I guess you have to collect information for a while. Brads scale seems to be reading on the high side, based on what I have seen earlier......


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

I thought a 1/4 of an OZ was a deal breaker for you Niko.


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## hamish (Nov 14, 2014)

Brad,

Put about 15 hours of run time on it before you start messing with it so you can actually see its true performance, versus having nothing to compare it to. They take a bit to fully wake up.


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

hamish said:


> Brad,
> 
> Put about 15 hours of run time on it before you start messing with it so you can actually see its true performance, versus having nothing to compare it to. They take a bit to fully wake up.


I'd like to mods this saw before 2024!


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

hamish said:


> Brad,
> 
> Put about 15 hours of run time on it before you start messing with it so you can actually see its true performance, versus having nothing to compare it to. They take a bit to fully wake up.



Wouldn't they still "wake up" after being modded?


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Yep......it's an easy thing to do.
> 
> Come on in.......the water is fine.


I'm skeered! Lol


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## blsnelling (Nov 14, 2014)

The way I see it, it's not broken before or after mods, so comparisons are consistent.


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## Mastermind (Nov 14, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm skeered! Lol



I was too......but folks pushed me into doing it. 

After gearing up to cut em on the lathe.....I see no reason to mess with popups at all. 

I can cut the squish on most jugs in 30 minutes.


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## CR888 (Nov 15, 2014)

l dunno whether cutting the squish is neccesary or not to get the best running saw, what do know after running a fully stock 261 for two years is that Brad knows a thing or two about making a saw run. My standard carb strato gutted 261 amazes me everyday l run it. lt just friggen flies!


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## Eddy_t (Nov 15, 2014)

SawTroll said:


> Yes it is - forgot about that. That likely is because of regular vs. small spline drums though - and it can be swapped around as far as I know.


Longer crankshaft on the 562, niko, clutch drums have nothing to do with it.

You're slipping!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wigglesworth (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I was too......but folks pushed me into doing it.
> 
> After gearing up to cut em on the lathe.....I see no reason to mess with popups at all.
> 
> I can cut the squish on most jugs in 30 minutes.



Wholeheartedly agree. I can't imagine trying to increase the compression ratio any other way. 

But it takes me an hour or so.


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 15, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Longer crankshaft on the 562, niko, clutch drums have nothing to do with it.
> 
> *You're slipping!*



 Looks that way, I hadn't notised. It would be interesting to know the reason for the differense......


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 15, 2014)

SawTroll said:


> Looks that way, I hadn't notised. It would be interesting to know the reason for the differense......


I would imagine it's moving the mount a little further away from the cylinder to take the larger bars. You must be forgetting it, we discussed this on arbtalk about a week or 2 ago


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chadihman (Nov 15, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I love my Husky's but i kept my 361.....so did Sawtoll.


Its a husky heart in a Stihl body. No doubt some of them huskys are good runners.


----------



## chadihman (Nov 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> The fastest 60cc saw I previously built was a 359. I never had the opportunity to compare it to Nik's MS361, but it would have been close.


I have that saw and it ain't going nowhere. That 361is wearing a 25" bar it runs Stihl 3/8 rsk well. Probably my favorite saw to run. A couple guys at work got to run it and they wouldn't stop talking about it.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

555/562

359/357

History has shown the higher priced one is not always the best option eh?


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> 555/562
> 
> 359/357
> 
> History has shown the higher priced one is not always the best option eh?


Yes kind of, but the Mahl cylinder on the 357 is better than that of the 359.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

$200+ better?


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi Sunny!


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> $200+ better?


That's what killed the 357xp sales! $100 diff would have made more sense... Not knocking the 359, good saw, but the cylinder is not the best quality...

I get em used now, so it's all good. Also fixin to put a new oem 357 P&C on a 359.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Hi Sunny!
> 
> 
> View attachment 379786


Very nice red ear, bubba!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> $200+ better?



Yes.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Yes.



I normally agree with you, but not this time.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 15, 2014)

Hooray Finger Ported 262xp


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

sunfish said:


> Very nice red ear, bubba!!!




Pumpkinseed bro'!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> I normally agree with you, but not this time.



I hear ya. But......

The 359 cylinder is complete junk. It's just a cheaply made Chinese, poorly plated pile of crap. Then there's the cat muffler, and the lack of crank stuffers.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I hear ya. But......
> 
> The 359 cylinder is complete junk. It's just a cheaply made Chinese, poorly plated pile of crap. Then there's the cat muffler, and the lack of crank stuffers.



The two you built me were convincing enough to send that brand new ported 562xpw down the road the same week I got it. Id buy another 359 in a heartbeat if it wasnt for my 262s.


----------



## old-cat (Nov 15, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Hooray Finger Ported 262xp


Watch out 262xp! My 036 is gonna be nipping at your tail before long!


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I hear ya. But......
> 
> The 359 cylinder is complete junk. It's just a cheaply made Chinese, poorly plated pile of crap. Then there's the cat muffler, and the lack of crank stuffers.



Screwed one or two up eh?,

besides old JJ says he takes the stuffers out on the 357s he works on.

And the muffler, yes it was less than ideal, nothing a good old boy can't rectify.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Pumpkinseed bro'!


Looks just like a Red ear, but with more freckles. But yeah, a Large Pumpkinseed!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> The two you built me were convincing enough to send that brand new ported 562xpw down the road the same week I got it. Id buy another 359 in a heartbeat if it wasnt for my 262s.



I can make the 359 into a running SOB. I still don't like that jug though. 



sachsmo said:


> Screwed one or two up eh?,
> 
> besides old JJ says he takes the stuffers out on the 357s he works on.
> 
> And the muffler, yes it was less than ideal, nothing a good old boy can't rectify.



Never messed one up by porting it......no. 

The plating is so thin that they rarely ever are able to be cleaned up after a scored piston.......which happens a lot due to the crappy intake boot design. 

I like the stuffers in em myself......


----------



## Sagetown (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Pumpkinseed bro'!


pumpkinseed are more orange down here, but the conformation looks right.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Sagetown said:


> pumpkinseed are more orange down here, but the conformation looks right.



Yupper and that was caught North of the 45th parrallel, they grow alot slower up Nordth eh?


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I can make the 359 into a running SOB. I still don't like that jug though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You sure the OEM 359 cylinder is made in China??????????????

Besides the 357 muffler is no great flowing device, I took one look at it and opened it up (to say the least)


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> You sure the OEM 359 cylinder is made in China??????????????
> 
> Besides the 357 muffler is no great flowing device, I took one look at it and opened it up (to say the least)



I'd bet my eye teeth it is. 

Same for the 353. 

I agree with you on the muffler. They were taking stupid pills when they made those things.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> You sure the OEM 359 cylinder is made in China??????????????
> 
> Besides the 357 muffler is no great flowing device, I took one look at it and opened it up (to say the least)


The muffler on both these models is choked up about as bad as any I've seen. 
BTW, I've seen cats and non-cats on both models.

The 357 cylinder is the same design as the 346xp & 372xp. Proven hot-rod chit!


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Hmm,

ain't but 10 bucks difference in price between the OEM 357 cylinder and the OEM 359?

Guess Husky is making a killing off all them Chinese children?

I think I would take that bet on your eye teeth monkey.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Hmm,
> 
> ain't but 10 bucks difference in price between the OEM 357 cylinder and the OEM 359?
> 
> ...


357 is made by Mahle. 359 is a no name, maybe an in-house built? I doubt it's made in china, but it is lower quality.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Hmm,
> 
> ain't but 10 bucks difference in price between the OEM 357 cylinder and the OEM 359?
> 
> ...



I think they are indeed making big money off those poor souls. 

I'd bet......and I'd win.


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Screwed one or two up eh?,
> 
> besides old JJ says he takes the stuffers out on the 357s he works on.
> 
> And the muffler, yes it was less than ideal, nothing a good old boy can't rectify.



Not all of them, it depends on what you're building. 

A 357 without stuffers can be made into a very good running saw. A 359 with stuffers can also be made into a very good running saw.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Nov 15, 2014)

Im bummed i sold that NOS 357xp to paul .. ..thanks guys i regret it now more than i already did !


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Im bummed i sold that NOS 357xp to paul .. ..thanks guys i regret it now more than i already did !


I regret passing on one or two like new 357s'. I wont do that again!
It's my new favorite saw...


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I think they are indeed making big money off those poor souls.
> 
> I'd bet......and I'd win.




You only gonna get one if you be right.

The one on the left side O' my face is MIA!


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 15, 2014)

chadihman said:


> Its a husky heart in a Stihl body. No doubt some of them huskys are good runners.



At least it is a quad transfer design, and my Euro one had excellent trigger response - like a Husky xp!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> You only gonna get one if you be right.
> 
> The one on the left side O' my face is MIA!



LMAO. 

I still got both of mine.........I've been known to bet wisely.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd bet my eye teeth it is.
> 
> Same for the 353.
> 
> I agree with you on the muffler. They were taking stupid pills when they made those things.




In the words of a mouse;


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 15, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> I would imagine it's moving the mount a little further away from the cylinder to take the larger bars. You must be forgetting it, we discussed this on arbtalk about a week or 2 ago



I'm confused  - but if that is the case, it's another reason to prefere the 560 to the 562.....


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

No need to prove it. 

Just look at the crappy looking thing.


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I hear ya. But......
> 
> The 359 cylinder is complete junk. It's just a cheaply made Chinese, poorly plated pile of crap. Then there's the cat muffler, and the lack of crank stuffers.



The cat on the 353 and 359 was a US market thing - it was an option everywhere (?) else. 

Are you joking about those cylinders being Chinese, I thought they were Gilardoni?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I hear ya. But......
> 
> The 359 cylinder is complete junk. It's just a cheaply made Chinese, poorly plated pile of crap. Then there's the cat muffler, and the lack of crank stuffers.


Woah ,woah, woah! You're starting to sound like me!


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Har, har, har,

Must be the nikasil dust eh??????????????????????????????


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

I fail to see the humor.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I fail to see the humor.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

alright I'll let ya pull fun at me ugly mug. (look I still got me tooth there)

Remember, the folks at work call me "the polar bear", so that fish is bigger than it looks;


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 15, 2014)

sunfish said:


> I regret passing on one or two like new 357s'. I wont do that again!
> It's my new favorite saw...



I got a nice 357 that's sitting here waiting for sunfish to agree to trade is AT husky for it. Not sure what that guy is thinking


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Jacob J. said:


> Not all of them, it depends on what you're building.
> 
> A 357 without stuffers can be made into a very good running saw. A 359 with stuffers can also be made into a very good running saw.




I read your stuff like gospel,

Chit master monkey did not show up here until 3 years after I bought my 359.(and i was lurkin back in '02)

I had been through it and "saw the light" already.

Sorry dude, but I need 2 eye teeth in the mail ASP!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> I read your stuff like gospel,
> 
> Chit master monkey did not show up here until 3 years after I bought my 359.(and i was lurkin back in '02)
> 
> ...



But first you gotta prove that crappy jug wasn't made in Red China.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Sorry Chimp,

the burden of proof is on you,


Hahahahahahahah

(sorry Dennis)


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> I had been through it and "saw the light" already.



Oh.......now I "get" it. 

You've got one of those 359s.......and you think it's the cat's ass. 

You ain't happy about me calling it Communist Garbage.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Rookie!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Sorry Chimp,
> 
> the burden of proof is on you,
> 
> ...



I talked to Dennis for a good long while the other day.......he said he's finally weened himself off of this site. 

I hate that.......he's a damn hoot. 

As far as proof goes.......why should I have to prove that your eyes are lying to you?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I talked to Dennis for a good long while the other day.......he said he's finally weened himself off of this site.
> 
> I hate that.......he's a damn hoot.
> 
> As far as proof goes.......why should I have to prove that your eyes are lying to you?


He popped up in Gypo's thread a couple days ago ,posted a great pic of him with 4 bikesaws


----------



## hamish (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Wouldn't they still "wake up" after being modded?


Oh course they would but if you don't bother getting any run time on them in either state your comparing them to pretty much nothing.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm not comparing anything to anything else. Why would I? Let the guys that work with the saws tell us how they run. 

If you couldn't tell the saws I build are a hell of a lot stronger than stock saws I seriously doubt I would be booked up till June of next year.


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 15, 2014)

Christ! What's the love for the 359 in America? The hyway 359 cylinder is better than OEM 359, it's even better on a 357 body. But seriously what's the love for a crappy cylinder? Over in Europe we don't have cat mufflers generally, but there is a jungle muffler


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Oh.......now I "get" it.
> 
> You've got one of those 359s.......and you think it's the cat's ass.
> 
> You ain't happy about me calling it Communist Garbage.



http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...544323:buttkick::buttkick::buttkick::buttkick:


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

So.......I see now. 

You and all those MS390 lovers. 

Y'all love your saws.

I get it. 

Peace?


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

Back on track... oh wait, wrong thread.


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 15, 2014)

your bars upside down


----------



## chadihman (Nov 15, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> your bars upside down


Crap I got a few of them. I once put a chain on backwards and a eBayer pointed it out.


----------



## walexa07 (Nov 15, 2014)

I read through 9 pages looking for some progress, Brad!! I figured you'd have the cylinder off, pics, comments, and maybe even some measurements by now. What gives? ;-)

Waylan


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

walexa07 said:


> I read through 9 pages looking for some progress, Brad!! I figured you'd have the cylinder off, pics, comments, and maybe even some measurements by now. What gives? ;-)
> 
> Waylan


The cylinder hasn't been off yet. However, I was able to put 1 1/2 tanks of fuel through it this afternoon. Afterwards, I threw a brand new RS chain on it and videod some cuts. I then did a MM, made some adjustment cuts, and then recorded some more cuts. I'm out to eat with my wifey now. I'll get the vids up a little later.


----------



## Duane(Pa) (Nov 15, 2014)

Saw wars for saw whores


----------



## porsche965 (Nov 15, 2014)

Take care of family first. We all can wait


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

First of all, I'm very impressed with how this saw runs bone stock. I don't say that about a lot of saws. Lots of saws are doggy and down on power until they at least have a muffler mod. That's not the case with this saw. It just feels good. It has no trouble at all pulling a 20" bar buried in hardwood. Throttle response is great. Torque is great. Hot starts are great. I simply have no complaints about it. I could totally recommend this saw to someone looking for a great all around firewood saw, that has no intentions of any mods.

Here it is bone stock, on it's second tank of fuel. It's a brand new Stihl RS chain. As you can see, the chain loosened up a little in the first couple of cuts I did with it before the vid.


Interesting enough, a muffler mod did little to nothing for it. Perhaps it needed more time to adjust to the change. I only made 6 cuts in this log after the muffler mod. The last cut at the very end of the vid did show an improvement. I modded the muffler just like I do on a 550. I opened up the baffle a little and opened up under the factory deflector. I don't like to open the baffle too much on the 550 because any more just seems to make it louder.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

This is not the first time I've seen a muffler mod not make a big difference on a good saw. The Dolmar 7900 is another example. To me, it's a comment on how well the saw runs bone stock.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 15, 2014)

Nice vids Brad! I've been saying the 555 is the best firewood saw on the market right now.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Nov 15, 2014)

It really 4 stokes outta the cut at WOT. I never really noticed my 550 or 562 doing that but maybe its just easier to hear on the video.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fire8 (Nov 15, 2014)

Nope it won't pull that chain even after ported,better stick it on the 390


----------



## CR888 (Nov 15, 2014)

l don't know why but it seems few have had carb issues with the 555 compared to the 562. l would imagine they have similar/same carbs? Maybe its just many around here with 'prosaw' mentality own 562's. l am kinda glad l got a 555 instead.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

CR888 said:


> l don't know why but it seems few have had carb issues with the 555 compared to the 562. l would imagine they have similar/same carbs? Maybe its just many around here with 'prosaw' mentality own 562's. l am kinda glad l got a 555 instead.


The 555 has a different carb than the 562. The 555 has a EL49, whereas the 562 is going from a EL46 to a EL48. Keep in mind what Terry told us. He has only dealt with maybe a dozen carb issues on the 562, and that includes problem saws sent in that he had not worked on previously. While having carb issues with your saw is a royal pain, it's not like most of them are suffering from it. Hopefully mods won't mess up the manners of this saw. It runs perfectly right now.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> It really 4 stokes outta the cut at WOT. I never really noticed my 550 or 562 doing that but maybe its just easier to hear on the video.


I'm betting that is the rev limiter you're hearing.


----------



## hamish (Nov 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> First of all, I'm very impressed with how this saw runs bone stock. I don't say that about a lot of saws. Lots of saws are doggy and down on power until they at least have a muffler mod. That's not the case with this saw. It just feels good. It has no trouble at all pulling a 20" bar buried in hardwood. Throttle response is great. Torque is great. Hot starts are great. I simply have no complaints about it. I could totally recommend this saw to someone looking for a great all around firewood saw, that has no intentions of any mods.
> 
> Here it is bone stock, on it's second tank of fuel. It's a brand new Stihl RS chain. As you can see, the chain loosened up a little in the first couple of cuts I did with it before the vid.
> 
> ...




Show me your modded and ported Triple Nickel after a 159hrs of run time and lets see how its running, guess we will all be dead by then.

Well just my opinion (go ahead Monkey), modding an AT saw is pretty much pointless for the builder lacks the ability to change all of the variables, just has to be able to conform within the given unknown parameters within the system they are presented with.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

hamish said:


> Well just my opinion (go ahead Monkey), modding an AT saw is pretty much pointless for the builder lacks the ability to change all of the variables, just has to be able to conform within the given unknown parameters within the system they are presented with.


I'm not following you. Porting does the same thing for an AT saw as it does for one that's not. The AT automatically changes the only variable it needs to...fuel.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Nov 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm betting that is the rev limiter you're hearing.


Probably....its still learning so it might be revving a little high outta the cut still.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hamish (Nov 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm not following you. Porting does the same thing for an AT saw as it does for one that's not. The AT automatically changes the only variable it needs to...fuel.


Within an extent. Such a shame you guys weren't around to play with Gen1 AT. AT does not have any downstream feedback, a simple lean out test and its mapping is all it has.

Take the muffler off the 555, fire it up and tell us what it does, how it runs, will be a good indicator.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 15, 2014)

hamish said:


> Show me your modded and ported Triple Nickel after a 159hrs of run time and lets see how its running, guess we will all be dead by then.
> 
> Well just my opinion (go ahead Monkey), modding an AT saw is pretty much pointless for the builder lacks the ability to change all of the variables, just has to be able to conform within the given unknown parameters within the system they are presented with.


WTF??


----------



## CR888 (Nov 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> The 555 has a different carb than the 562. The 555 has a EL49, whereas the 562 is going from a EL46 to a EL48. Keep in mind what Terry told us. He has only dealt with maybe a dozen carb issues on the 562, and that includes problem saws sent in that he had not worked on previously. While having carb issues with your saw is a royal pain, it's not like most of them are suffering from it. Hopefully mods won't mess up the manners of this saw. It runs perfectly right now.


Well would a good solution for fubared 562 carbs be to replace them with a prooven 555 EL49 carb? l must say l am to happy about how my 550/555 both run stock..the sound of them spooling up is very different to other makes/models.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 15, 2014)

CR888 said:


> WTF??



He's mildly retarded. 

I just ignore him.


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 15, 2014)

I gutted a 555 muffler a few years ago. It wasn't much behind a 562 in the same wood.


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 15, 2014)

my only thing with the autotunes is that ported or not the AT system is always looking for RPM's it should be running at regardless so while a ported saw may still make more power then stock it is not reaching it's full potential cause AT is killing potential by keeping RPM's to within stock tolerances. only way AT can do that is feeding it more fuel making it run rich. i think this is what hamish is talking about. if a guy could reprogram autotune to compliment the porting i bet the AT saws would be even better. i do like my saws a tad rich though so maybe porting puts the mixture in the perfect spot.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

It doesn't work that way at all. If that were the case, you couldn't mod an AT saw. Instead, it's constantly looking for *max* *RPMs*, not some predefined RPM.


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> It doesn't work that way at all. If that were the case, you couldn't mod an AT saw. Instead, it's constantly looking for *max* *RPMs*, not some predefined RPM.



oh


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 15, 2014)

so yer talking about max RPM's in wood? concerned that might be to lean but it seems these saws are pretty good. only heard of a few with roached top ends so far.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 15, 2014)

The perfect tune is max RPMs in the cut.


----------



## Big_Wood (Nov 15, 2014)

so i suppose when the AT does it's lean out test it will notice a loss in RPM's if it goes to lean and rich'n back up from there? nifty, learn something new everyday. here i thought RPM's were preset from the factory. and figured AT would make sure it stayed in those RPM's by controlling fuel supply.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 15, 2014)

l think people see AT/Mtronic systems as WAY more complicated than they are. They are probably one of the simplest more reliable components of a saw. When we don't understand something we either fear it or think it is far more complex than it is.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 16, 2014)

Having worked on more complex systems in industry, the autotune/M-tronics have very simple programs.

The lack of inputs makes the program 'boxed in".

The engineers who design it must figure in safety margins (to cover their arse on warranty)

Longevity will always trump Max performance in these loops.


----------



## weimedog (Nov 16, 2014)

I've had mine a couple years, an early one. About my favorite new saw for the farm. Enough of all the right things and not too much of any of the wrong.. (Light, enough power, not too expensive). Been part of a couple of year argument (all in fun of course) between me and spike60 about what is the best firewood/farm saw on the planet. For me it's the 555/2258. Really haven't even thought about mods, the thing runs good enough stock.. and starts easy too. Bought a Sugihara for it before the channel and prices got wacked.


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 16, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm not following you. Porting does the same thing for an AT saw as it does for one that's not. The AT automatically changes the only variable it needs to...fuel.



I would think there are a limit somewhere, as to how much it can change the fuel supply?


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 16, 2014)

Indeed Niko!


----------



## old-cat (Nov 16, 2014)

CR888 said:


> l think people see AT/Mtronic systems as WAY more complicated than they are. They are probably one of the simplest more reliable components of a saw. When we don't understand something we either fear it or think it is far more complex than it is.


You're talking about me! I'm truly guilty. Maybe I should get me a 555?


----------



## weimedog (Nov 16, 2014)

Sooner or later the electronics will follow the rest of the motorsports world and get to the point where fuel & timing curves can be tweaked... not there yet! But that will be another way to get more out of mods. Can't wait...


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 16, 2014)

I can!

But you are right, someday you will need to hook your smartphone up to your saw and buy a programmer app to out hustle your buds eh?


But then again, a fella that can set and sharpen a crosscut may be in demand, the future is unknown?


----------



## BBP (Nov 16, 2014)

CR888 said:


> l think people see AT/Mtronic systems as WAY more complicated than they are. They are probably one of the simplest more reliable components of a saw. When we don't understand something we either fear it or think it is far more complex than it is.





blsnelling said:


> It doesn't work that way at all. If that were the case, you couldn't mod an AT saw. Instead, it's constantly looking for *max* *RPMs*, not some predefined RPM.



Would one of you explain this? I don't understand how it works at all & can't seem to find any info on how it works.


----------



## Termite (Nov 16, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> your bars upside down



I had to think on that one for a moment.

BBP, one thing I have to remind myself every once in a while is how much faster electronic controls work in relation to the speed of the saw. One rpm on a 13k rpm saw is equivalent to years in electronic time.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

BBP said:


> Would one of you explain this? I don't understand how it works at all & can't seem to find any info on how it works.


I haven't read any tech article on AutoTune, but here's how MTronic works. The tach in the coil monitors RPM multiple times per second. It signals the servo that replaces the H needle in the carb to either add or pull fuel. Depending on how that affects RPM, it will make another adjustment, thereby constantly tuning for max RPMs. There are no other parameters besides RPMs for WOT tuning. It knows nothing about O2 levels, MAP, or the like. It knows nothing about timing. Timing is fixed with preset values, also based on RPM. It is not adjusted real time like the fuel. It has set parameters. Hereby, the saw is capable of tuning itself for changing weather conditions, fuel quality, porting, etc. As these variables affect fuel needs, the saw senses it through how fueling changes affect RPMs, and adjusts accordingly. It really is just that simple.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

"It really is just that simple."

Love it.


----------



## sgrizz (Nov 16, 2014)

I bought one 3 years ago and had the stumble off of idle to full throttle for awhile . Took it to the dealer and they coulnt get it to stumble so I ran it some more cause it only had 3 tanks thru it at the time. I have used it this past summer with no issues. the more I ran it the better it was. thanks for this review brad .


----------



## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

I want an MTronic saw worse and worse every time I get on here...


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 16, 2014)

I watched your video Brad, and was shocked to see the OE branded Powermatch bar. Do the extra few ounces throw the balance off and make the saw handle poorly? How is it wearing after 2 tanks...about wore out? 

The original 555s known as 'Triple Nickels' were an all-Black parachute infantry that served as smokejumpers during wartime (WWII). They jumped 36 fires. Wonder if the Swedes had any knowledge of that American history when they chose the model number on this saw?

Thanks for your technical contribution to the forum.


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Nov 16, 2014)

Do they run a limited coil to keep the saw from overreving?
That would protect the saw from itself.
It would run it's best but not rev to the point of slinging itself apart.

You just have to trust this magic smoke stuff, just don't let it escape!


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Four Paws said:


> I watched your video Brad, and was shocked to see the OE branded Powermatch bar. Do the extra few ounces throw the balance off and make the saw handle poorly? How is it wearing after 2 tanks...about wore out?


Actually, it balances very nicely with this bar. My Tsumura T&L won't be here until later this week and I wanted a bar now. This was the next best thing local.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Four Paws said:


> The original 555s known as 'Triple Nickels' were an all-Black parachute infantry that served as smokejumpers during wartime (WWII). They jumped 36 fires. Wonder if the Swedes had any knowledge of that American history when they chose the model number on this saw?


Are you saying that I need to paint this saw black? I could start a new trend of "Theme Saws"


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Very cool! http://www.triplenickle.com/


----------



## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> It signals the servo that replaces the H needle in the carb to either add or pull fuel. Depending on how that affects RPM, it will make another adjustment, thereby constantly tuning for max RPMs. There are no other parameters besides RPMs for WOT tuning.


?Wouldn't it hit max RPMs near a lean seizure limit? There have to be some other controls or limits to prevent this.

Just trying to understand.

Philbert


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> ?Wouldn't it hit max RPMs near a lean seizure limit? There have to be some other controls or limits to prevent this.
> 
> Just trying to understand.
> 
> Philbert


Max RPMs in the cut is not the same as max RPMs at WOT, then trying to cut with it. What I explained is right out of a Stihl tech document.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

When we port these saws we increase their demand for airflow. That increased airflow pulls more fuel from the carb......it is still just a carbed engine.


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## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

I've given up trying to figure out how it works........I'm just glad it does.


----------



## DeckSetter (Nov 16, 2014)

So if I'm understanding this right, you have to put a husky AT saw through some kind of learning sequence to tune itself, right? So does it keep tuning itself as it runs afterward? Do you have to put an Mtronic saw through a similar learning mode or does it do it all on the go?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

They remember the last run time parameters. 

That is great most of the time......but if you were last running the saw at 25F and you get it out next time when it's 95F, it's gonna take it a little while to start behaving correctly.


----------



## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Max RPMs in the cut is not the same as max RPMs at WOT, then trying to cut with it. What I explained is right out of a Stihl tech document.



And I am not challenging you Brad, just trying to understand. How does the saw 'know' that it is in a cut versus WOT? Any idea? There must be some kind of sensor or value it measures to know this.

Thanks.

Philbert


----------



## Fire8 (Nov 16, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> When we port these saws we increase their demand for airflow. That increased airflow pulls more fuel from the carb......it is still just a carbed engine.


Then we need to add a cold air intake so we can get more incoming air


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

I have one of these.........and I still ain't got a damn clue how it really works.


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## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

This screen gives us info on the current fuel settings.....


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> And I am not challenging you Brad, just trying to understand. How does the saw 'know' that it is in a cut versus WOT? Any idea? There must be some kind of sensor or value it measures to know this.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert


It doesn't need to know. Max RPMs in the cut takes more fuel than max RPMs at WOT.


----------



## BBP (Nov 16, 2014)

On the Mtronic, what does recalibrating do?


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Nov 16, 2014)

So it's just an electronic screwdriver attached to the H needle that constantly adjusts for best performance based on rpm in the cut?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Bilge Rat LT 20 said:


> So it's just an electronic screwdriver attached to the H needle that constantly adjusts for best performance based on rpm in the cut?


That's it!


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Nov 16, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> This screen gives us info on the current fuel settings.....



On the screen does it give you the total run time on the saw from new? 
It looks like it does at the top of the screen or is that only while you have it hooked up to the program.


----------



## weimedog (Nov 16, 2014)

I wasn't even expecting that much sophistication, I guessed a throttle position sensor with rpm sensor giving that "electronic screw driver" a base line by effecting the diaphragm and then the carburetor doing it's carburation thing based on available fuel. But I don't know that system yet at all and any info is greatly appreciated.


----------



## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

Bilge Rat LT 20 said:


> So it's just an electronic screwdriver attached to the H needle that constantly adjusts for best performance based on rpm in the cut?


Bingo


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 16, 2014)




----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 16, 2014)

Bilge Rat LT 20 said:


> On the screen does it give you the total run time on the saw from new?
> It looks like it does at the top of the screen or is that only while you have it hooked up to the program.


Yes, that's the hours, the coloured bars are last run specs (WOT, load and idle).

I think the saw has a pre-programmed run-in too, as the max rpm on the screen was sub 13.5k rpm, similarly I tached my 560 when I first ran it, it didn't go over 13.5, but when husky plugged it in, it was running 14.2k rpm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

OK - this is a Husky thread, but an M-Tronic reference on YouTube:



Philbert


----------



## woods works (Nov 16, 2014)

These docs might help to understand better. Its still not fully sunk in, as most things electronic are kinda like "magic" cuz I can't SEE how it works.


----------



## weimedog (Nov 16, 2014)

Thank you.


----------



## woods works (Nov 16, 2014)

More


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 16, 2014)

In case someone doesn't know, Carb Control = Autotune in Jonsered lingo.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 16, 2014)

This thread should be renamed 'Autotune school'. I swear someone mentioned something about a tripple nickel at some stage....maybe that was the paratroopers during the war.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Has anyone else done just a MM and timed it before and after?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 16, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Has anyone else done just a MM and timed it before and after?



Lots of times


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

Same here. 

And didn't really see that gains everyone said I would. lol


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Same here.
> 
> And didn't really see that gains everyone said I would. lol


Thanks Randy. I was just checking my sanity, lol. Some saws it makes a big difference. Others, not so much.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 16, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Lots of times


.................on a 555 or 562, lol.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 16, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> .................on a 555 or 562, lol.



I only mod real saws...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 16, 2014)

I use far less outlet than most guys that "mod" saws. 

Of course I hate loud saws.


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 16, 2014)

A gutted 555 muffler will make it real loud. I don't know if I would gut one completely if I had another one.


----------



## weimedog (Nov 16, 2014)

mweba1 posted this ...


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 16, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> This screen gives us info on the current fuel settings.....


I've read that those can be used for resetting at least some of the Mtronic saws as well, but I don't remember what it takes to do it?


----------



## CR888 (Nov 16, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> A gutted 555 muffler will make it real loud. I don't know if I would gut one completely if I had another one.


lts funny how some models respond to muff modds. The 550xp many say makes quite a big difference but its not so much of a suprise nowdays when no gains are achieved. Quite a few of my new saws dont take well to it however the louver gills Brad did for me on a saw do keep your hands nice and toasty warm when holding the saw on its side. Its not whitefinger l worry about now its crispyfinger you gotta watch out for.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 17, 2014)

So does Autotune turn down any rpms that could have been gained with the muffler mods ? Not letting you get gains like the older carb saws ?


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 17, 2014)

CR888 said:


> lts funny how some models respond to muff modds. The 550xp many say makes quite a big difference but its not so much of a suprise nowdays when no gains are achieved. Quite a few of my new saws dont take well to it however the louver gills Brad did for me on a saw do keep your hands nice and toasty warm when holding the saw on its side. Its not whitefinger l worry about now its crispyfinger you gotta watch out for.


My 550 is muffler modded only. It's real low.on my list of wants to spend time to port it.


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 17, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> So does Autotune turn down any rpms that could have been gained with the muffler mods ? Not letting you get gains like the older carb saws ?


You won't notice any gains on the 60cc saws as the amount of metal inside the muffler is stupid! Also the ports are tiny, so that doesn't allow much of a mod until the saw itself is ported. I'm interested to see what brad does, as I'll be porting my 560xp soon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hoskvarna (Nov 17, 2014)

. My 555 muff mod


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## sachsmo (Nov 17, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I haven't read any tech article on AutoTune, but here's how MTronic works. The tach in the coil monitors RPM multiple times per second. It signals the servo that replaces the H needle in the carb to either add or pull fuel. Depending on how that affects RPM, it will make another adjustment, thereby constantly tuning for max RPMs. There are no other parameters besides RPMs for WOT tuning. It knows nothing about O2 levels, MAP, or the like. It knows nothing about timing. Timing is fixed with preset values, also based on RPM. It is not adjusted real time like the fuel. It has set parameters. Hereby, the saw is capable of tuning itself for changing weather conditions, fuel quality, porting, etc. As these variables affect fuel needs, the saw senses it through how fueling changes affect RPMs, and adjusts accordingly. It really is just that simple.




In lies the prob with these new servo systems.

Can you imagine the gunked up mess after one sits for a year or two with 'gas' in it?

It all boils down to the parameters the engineers put in the loop.

Does anyone have a REAL programmer for them?


----------



## buck futter (Nov 17, 2014)

so what specifically are the differences between the 555 and 562 

also isn't this labeled inside the 555? 
did i miss some pics?

what gives i say what i gives?


----------



## Homelite410 (Nov 17, 2014)

sunfish said:


> Likely the smallest 60cc saw on the market. Looks nice, Brad!
> 
> 
> The previous model, 262xp was/is faster than a 357xp, as is the recent model, 562xp.
> But my ported 357xp can whoop em all.


U sure about that Don? [emoji8]


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 17, 2014)

buck futter said:


> so what specifically are the differences between the 555 and 562


Bar mount pattern (555 is k095, 562 is d009)
High top air filter (although they're interchangeable)
562 has a longer crankshaft
562 has higher output oiler
Different carb
Different cylinder
Crank stuffers
Different clutch drums (also interchangeable)
Heated handle option (XP only)


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## hoskvarna (Nov 17, 2014)

If i remember correct,the cyl has the same casting # on them.the difference is the transfer covers.
I think that is what Mitch told me.


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## Eddy_t (Nov 17, 2014)

hoskvarna said:


> If i remember correct,the cyl has the same casting # on them.the difference is the transfer covers.
> I think that is what Mitch told me.


Yes, similar to the 365/372, but afaik you can't buy the covers separate.
It's odd that the USA gets the 555 and 562, considering the direct saws are 556 > 562xp and 555 > 560xp. But you get the j'red 2260 (which is the 560). I assume the hi-top filter gives a bit more flow and power too? Considering the 562 and 560 produce the same power, despite the 562 having bigger attachments?


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## sunfish (Nov 17, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> U sure about that Don? [emoji8]


I said 'on the market'. Is yours for sale? That is still the coolest saw I've ever seen!!!


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## Homelite410 (Nov 17, 2014)

sunfish said:


> I said 'on the market'. Is yours for sale? That is still the coolest saw I've ever seen!!!


By that comment I meant my 2260 that I raced you with in the tweener races!


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## sunfish (Nov 17, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> By that comment I meant my 2260 that I raced you with in the tweener races!


Thought ya meant Squeak. 
I think the 555 might be a tad smaller than the 2260, but that'd just be in the plastic covers.


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## Homelite410 (Nov 17, 2014)

Love my 2260 but be careful with the recoil an decomp. Did this Sat......



broke the post clean off!


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## sunfish (Nov 17, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> Love my 2260 but be careful with the recoil an decomp. Did this Sat......
> 
> 
> 
> broke the post clean off!


That little button on top is handy!


----------



## sunfish (Nov 17, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> By that comment I meant my 2260 that I raced you with in the tweener races!


I'm a little slow, but gotcha now. I want a rematch! The 357xp is faster now.


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## mweba (Nov 17, 2014)

opcorn:


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## Four Paws (Nov 17, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> Love my 2260 but be careful with the recoil an decomp. Did this Sat......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What a bummer! Another reason I like magnesium saws. I'd rather pack the extra 1/2 pound than replace a bunch of broken plastic parts. Sorry for your luck on the recoil.


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## Homelite410 (Nov 17, 2014)

Four Paws said:


> What a bummer! Another reason I like magnesium saws. I'd rather pack the extra 1/2 pound than replace a bunch of broken plastic parts. Sorry for your luck on the recoil.


I hear you there but with my hands I can't stand the old sxl vibes!


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## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> Love my 2260 but be careful with the recoil an decomp. Did this Sat......
> 
> 
> 
> broke the post clean off!


That's the same exact thing that happened to my 2188!


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## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

OK, finally some "inside" pictures.

I've been running Maxima K2 lately and noticing that it seems to smoke more than normal on a cold startup. I think I just found why. The insides of this 555 are majorly coated in oil. That's a good thing!











There is some carbon buildup already, after 1 1/2 tanks. I'm not sure what to thing about that. Probably normal.










There's a puddle of oil on the rod. It doesn't show up well in the picture.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

Here's the offending stepped squish band. The very outer band is .008" tall, then the next band is .009" tall.















Here's the squishband post cleanup. It doesn't show well in the pic, but the steps are completely removed. What looks like a small ridge in the middle of the band is actually polished NiSi. I tried to get past that and it was just polishing it.





Sorry about the poor lighting. Not much detail left.


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 17, 2014)

K2 leaves a good film. I think better than belray and about the same as motul.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

Here's my timing wheel setup.















I bought a 1/2" bolt, drilled and tapped it to make a bushing. I did the same thing both of my Stihl flywheel removal tools.


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## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> K2 leaves a good film. I think better than belray and about the same as motul.


Have you noticed more smoke on a cold startup?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

I did not measure port timing before doing the machine work. Here's where it stands before porting.

Exhaust - 105°
Transfers - 117°
Intake - 79°
Squish - .018" (No base gasket. Parts of the base would get too thin.)

That's it for tonight.


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 17, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Have you noticed more smoke on a cold startup?


Maybe a touch. I don't pay much attention to that though.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Maybe a touch. I don't pay much attention to that though.


Normally I wouldn't either. This was enough difference to get my attention. If it's due to a superior coating of oil, I'm cool with that!


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 17, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Normally I wouldn't either. This was enough difference to get my attention. If it's due to a superior coating of oil, I'm cool with that!


Klotz R50 is the only thing I've seen leave more oil.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Klotz R50 is the only thing I've seen leave more oil.


It runs just a little on the dirty side as well. Perhaps that's not a bad thing after all.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 17, 2014)

Wait a minute! Did I just turn this into an oil thread, lol?


----------



## mdavlee (Nov 17, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> It runs just a little on the dirty side as well. Perhaps that's not a bad thing after all.


I'm not worried about the dirty running stuff after tearing down. A saw with 5-6 gallons of the klotz. It was a thin coating on the piston.


----------



## Flatie (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm not liking the carbon after 1 1/2 tanks. Haven't seen anything as clean running as belray. Nice pics keep em coming


----------



## KenJax Tree (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm still using the Lucas semi-synthetic oil, its cheap and seem to leave a nice film and burns clean.


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 17, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Normally I wouldn't either. This was enough difference to get my attention. If it's due to a superior coating of oil, I'm cool with that!



I have experienced the opposite, less smoke/smell period, when compared to the other oils I've used. Do you think maybe the AT is still adjusting itself, and is running rich at idle and maybe WOT as well?

Glad you finally got your hands on one of those smoking hot little Husky 60cc saw.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Nov 17, 2014)

You might be right Andy....my AT saws smoke little more when cold than the adjustable carb saws.


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 17, 2014)

Flatie said:


> I'm not liking the carbon after 1 1/2 tanks. Haven't seen anything as clean running as belray. Nice pics keep em coming



I have ran numerous oils from OEM to the high end stuff. The piston crowns all look similar. The ports and combustion chamber is where full synthetics shine. Fuel comes into play as well.

Enough with this oil ****. Is the saw ported yet? I figured you'd be out cutting in the nice warm weather.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 17, 2014)

At this stage of the saws life l'd be staying away from synthetics. The first few tanks of fuel are important for a saws future. l would use a regular oil to help breakin rather than one that promotes blowby....yeah l know ya all disagree.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> I have experienced the opposite, less smoke/smell period, when compared to the other oils I've used. Do you think maybe the AT is still adjusting itself, and is running rich at idle and maybe WOT as well?
> 
> Glad you finally got your hands on one of those smoking hot little Husky 60cc saw.


Actually, I've noticed the smoke with all of the saws I've run it in. Maybe it's just in my head


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> Enough with this oil ****. Is the saw ported yet? I figured you'd be out cutting in the nice warm weather.


You know me too well, lol. I had trouble going to sleep last night. I hate stopping in the middle of a project. I was thinking about what I wanted to do with it and how to best go about it.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 18, 2014)

CR888 said:


> At this stage of the saws life l'd be staying away from synthetics. The first few tanks of fuel are important for a saws future. l would use a regular oil to help breakin rather than one that promotes blowby....yeah l know ya all disagree.




That is bogus info.

With the modern coatings break-in is null and void.

Micro finish is where it's at, the pressure behind the rings is golden.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


>



saddest thing I've seen all day...


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 18, 2014)

Wanna see sumthin' sadder there Bozo?


----------



## super3 (Nov 18, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> That is bogus info.
> 
> With the modern coatings break-in is null and void.
> 
> Micro finish is where it's at, the pressure behind the rings is golden.




If break in is null and void, how come it takes several tanks for the saw to "wake up" and see increases in performance/power?


----------



## Termite (Nov 18, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> Love my 2260 but be careful with the recoil an decomp. Did this Sat......
> 
> 
> 
> broke the post clean off!


That happened to my 2253 and a week later to my 2260. The decompression valve resets every time the starter is pulled.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> saddest thing I've seen all day...



A popup makes sense in these saws........but I'm geared up to do the squish mod....so I cut that instead. 



super3 said:


> If break in is null and void, how come it takes several tanks for the saw to "wake up" and see increases in performance/power?



It's the tightness in the bottom end that gets looser Mike. Ring seal don't change much.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 18, 2014)

super3 said:


> If break in is null and void, how come it takes several tanks for the saw to "wake up" and see increases in performance/power?


I'll stand by what I said.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Wanna see sumthin' sadder there Bozo?



Bozo? Really?


----------



## Homelite410 (Nov 18, 2014)

Termite said:


> That happened to my 2253 and a week later to my 2260. The decompression valve resets every time the starter is pulled.


As expensive as these saws are and the reputation that the company wants from them, you'd think this wouldn't happen. My dealer said he'd keep one on hand for me. Might have to just go back to a 2159..............


----------



## sunfish (Nov 18, 2014)

I have one pop-up saw that is very strong, but will likely cut the squish on the next one.

Oh & Lucas oil...


----------



## sunfish (Nov 18, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> As expensive as these saws are and the reputation that the company wants from them, you'd think this wouldn't happen. My dealer said he'd keep one on hand for me. Might have to just go back to a 2159..............


What's the comp on that 2260? Probably worth mentioning...


----------



## Homelite410 (Nov 18, 2014)

No machine work has been done. And I don't have the stooopid 10mm adapter. Stock compression Don, on Jonsered oil @40:1.... 

Flame away boyz!


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Bozo? Really?




Duhhhh,

remember your old avi there?


Clowns still creep me out


----------



## sunfish (Nov 18, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> No machine work has been done. And I don't have the stooopid 10mm adapter. Stock compression Don, on Jonsered oil @40:1....
> 
> Flame away boyz!


Well, I thought it was modded, sorry... It sure runs good!


----------



## Homelite410 (Nov 18, 2014)

sunfish said:


> Well, I thought it was modded, sorry... It sure runs good!


My bad. Pop up no cut squish, no gasket.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> saddest thing I've seen all day...


I was waiting for someone to cry, lol. It works! I've seen no evidence at all to suggest that there is a measurable difference in performance between cutting the squishband and making a popup. From what I see, cutting the squishband is a useful method when needing to lower exhaust or transfer port timing, or when wanting more compression than can be had with a popup. Neither of those are a requirement for this build.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 18, 2014)

It's also interesting how fast a DozerDan saw is with a pop-up...


----------



## Termite (Nov 18, 2014)

Homelite410 said:


> No machine work has been done. And I don't have the stooopid 10mm adapter. Stock compression Don, on Jonsered oil @40:1....
> 
> Flame away boyz!



I have the adapter. However, the extra volume prevents an accurate reading.
Where can a fellow get the proper tool?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Duhhhh,
> 
> remember your old avi there?
> 
> ...



Oh..U mean this guy?









blsnelling said:


> I was waiting for someone to cry, lol. It works! I've seen no evidence at all to suggest that there is a measurable difference in performance between cutting the squishband and making a popup. From what I see, cutting the squishband is a useful method when needing to lower exhaust or transfer port timing, or when wanting more compression than can be had with a popup. Neither of those are a requirement for this build.



Lame....

Man up already!!!


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Lame....
> 
> Man up already!!!


Hey, I cleaned up .017"of squishband!


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Hey, I cleaned up .017"of squishband!



You forgot the other .023

Seriously, I've done both. The chamber cut ones are on a different level. Real, usable, rpm maintaining torque to go with those rpm. 8 pin torque. 

But I digress...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Hush Bozo.

You're messing up this thread with your silly opinions. We all know you can't build a saw in less than a year.......


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> You forgot the other .023
> 
> Seriously, I've done both. The chamber cut ones are on a different level. Real, usable, rpm maintaining torque to go with those rpm. 8 pin torque.
> 
> But I digress...


Same compression and port timing in both? In other words, did you isolate it to popup vs squishband cut? I have not seen that done.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Hush Bozo.
> 
> You're messing up this thread with your silly opinions. We all know you can't build a saw in less than a year.......



Opinions are like buttholes. Everybody's got one, and yours smells like ****. 

Hahahaha


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Same compression and port timing in both? In other words, did you isolate it to popup vs squishband cut? I have not seen that done.



If you've not seen that done, what evidence are you citing?

Not trying to bust your balls, but...well... Nevermind, I am busting your balls. LOL


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> If you've not seen that done, what evidence are you citing?
> 
> Not trying to bust your balls, but...well... Nevermind, I am busting your balls. LOL


They're made of steel. They can take it


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Pics of the steel balls?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Pics of the steel balls?



Randy, randy, randy.....

We all know you already have those pics....


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Oh.....yeah.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Best thread on AS in a long time. 

We could play with this saw for weeks.


----------



## BBP (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> You forgot the other .023
> 
> Seriously, I've done both. The chamber cut ones are on a different level. Real, usable, rpm maintaining torque to go with those rpm. 8 pin torque.
> 
> But I digress...


Could you explain this a little better? What's the other .023? The way Brads doing it would get the ports back near stock without having to cut them. Cutting the squish out of the cyl would result in lower port timing, right? Is it the lower port timing numbers you like better?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Twisting......


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

Jeremy is twisting my arm to do something I've wanted to for a long time. I'm going to finish building this saw with a popup, just like I do most of my saws. What he's trying to talk me into doing is replacing the piston and then cutting the squishband the same as the height of my popup. Hopefully compression would come out close. I want to isolate this change, as much as possible, to just the popup vs squishband cut. I'm just not sure I want to go back in there and raise the exhaust and transfers up that .040". I guess this as accurate of a test as you could make it. Only one way to find out..right? Besides, it's all for the good of the community!


----------



## buck futter (Nov 18, 2014)

Oh thank heavens, I thought he just didn't like you. well i feel much better now.


----------



## buck futter (Nov 18, 2014)

buck futter said:


> Oh thank heavens, I thought he just didn't like you. well i feel much better now.



My sons halloween costume even scarier he was carrying a mac 10-10 filled with dino mix at 52.5:1 most likely it would never start so the bigger hazard is if he threw it at you


----------



## Ray Bell (Nov 18, 2014)

Please excuse my ignorance, I am very non mechanical, but what is a pop up? Is this the little ledge on top of the piston, and what are the advantages/disadvantages of this type of piston?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Y'all are being bad boys.....


----------



## VinceGU05 (Nov 18, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Steven- Yes. No problem. everyone calls me bryan even though steven is in the sig. Doesnt bother me at all. Just glad to be here. The breakdown on bryanr2- my name is Richard Steven Bryan II. Ive gone by Steven my entire life though.


 you didnt want to be known as a ****? steven.. good choice


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 18, 2014)

VinceGU05 said:


> you didnt want to be known as a ****? steven.. good choice



Yeah it took 5 min of 6 grade to know that I was going by my middle name.  Hell and that was 20 years ago. Nah, im a "II" never really deserved to be named after my Dad. I did a lot of wrong in my teens and brought shame to my parents name being stupid (nothing illegal). I have spent the last 11 ears trying to make atonement. Now that I have 3 children of my own, I appreciate my parents very much. Enough of that spill though!


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

She's all done and running like a dream. It fired right up, idled perfectly, and has instant throttle response, just like a ported saw should. What's not to like? Unfortunately, it's too late to cut with it. I can't wait to get this thing in some wood!

*Here are the final port timings:*
Exhaust - 103°
Transfers - 114°
Intake - 79°
Compression - 180 PSI

This saw is a clone of a 550 in every way I see. The port timings on this saw are within 1° of what I put in that last 550 that ran so well. I'm also within 1° of where this saw would have been stock before any machining, with the exception of the intake being lower from dropping the jug. I'm very pleased with the compression. I'm up 35 PSI from where I started.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 18, 2014)

opcorn: Sounds like a "sick day" at work is in order for tomorrow.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Nov 18, 2014)

It's not that late!!!


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 18, 2014)

hell Ive run a Vermeer chipper after 10pm before in my yard.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Nov 18, 2014)

Brad i've seen video of you cutting in your headlights.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bryanr2 (Nov 18, 2014)

my neighbors hate when summer rolls around. Lots of noise playing with the toys.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Nov 18, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> hell Ive run a Vermeer chipper after 10pm before in my yard.


Yeah we get some funny looks we fire up the chipper and chain saws at 7:30am lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

OK, it's too late, too dark, and toooo cold!


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 18, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Yeah we get some funny looks we fire up the chipper and chain saws at 7:30am lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Im what they call "Unapproachable". And this little feller don't take kindly to strangers. Hell, even my parents call from their car. No one comes thru the gate.


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> *Here are the final port timings:*
> Exhaust - 103°
> Transfers - 114°
> Intake - 79°
> ...



I personally think 180-190 psi is ideal for a strong woods saw. 

Going to show any pictures of the port work?


----------



## SCHallenger (Nov 18, 2014)

opcorn:


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 18, 2014)

Four Paws said:


> I personally think 180-190 psi is ideal for a strong woods saw.
> 
> Going to show any pictures of the port work?


I intended to take pics. But once I get going, I don't like to slow down. It'll probably be back apart again. I've got a set of 562 transfer covers coming. I want to see if they make much difference.


----------



## Red97 (Nov 18, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Im what they call "Unapproachable". And this little feller don't take kindly to strangers. Hell, even my parents call from their car. No one comes thru the gate.
> View attachment 380554


 
I'd pet him. lol


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

BBP said:


> Could you explain this a little better? What's the other .023? The way Brads doing it would get the ports back near stock without having to cut them. Cutting the squish out of the cyl would result in lower port timing, right?



I'm all about accheiving a higher compression ratio, without hindering flow across the piston crown. A popup will hinder flow. I've seen it with my own two eyes. Heavy carbon buildup, uneven piston wash and even detonation. 

How many saws came factory with a pop-up piston? Only one that I'm aware of, the 028 super. 

Nobody ever wonders why?




BBP said:


> Is it the lower port timing numbers you like better?



On some saws, yes. Others, no.


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 18, 2014)

just how many 2 stroke boat motors out there have huge dome pistons,how many different brands of dome pistons are out there for hot rod drag cars . theres nothing wrong with a dome piston. theres been an awful lot of domed piston work saws built in the last decade and now all the sudden its not good enough.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 18, 2014)

Red97 said:


> I'd pet him. lol



let's put it into perspective, he wont let the pizza guy come thru the gate.


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 18, 2014)

doesn't the 026 have a dome piston? didn't some of the old mag saws come with dome pistons? there has been quite a few saws from the factory with a dome and some with a dish piston.


----------



## Sagetown (Nov 18, 2014)

Red97 said:


> I'd pet him. lol


U must be related to Crocodile Dundee


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

Pop-up piston wash....





What I like to call near perfect piston wash...





Anybody see what I see?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> doesn't the 026 have a dome piston? didn't some of the old mag saws come with dome pistons? there has been quite a few saws from the factory with a dome and some with a dish piston.



A dome and a pop-up are two entirely different things.


----------



## Red97 (Nov 18, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> let's put it into perspective, he wont let the pizza guy come thru the gate.


 
I'm 98% sure a ball/stick or rope getting tossed will divert his attention, Pretty familier with those "type" of dog. LOL Unless trained otherwise.




hijack over Now where's the finished video?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> just how many 2 stroke boat motors out there have huge dome pistons,how many different brands of dome pistons are out there for hot rod drag cars . theres nothing wrong with a dome piston. theres been an awful lot of domed piston work saws built in the last decade and now all the sudden its not good enough.



Again, we're talking saws. Air cooled, small cc two strokes. 

No manufacture that I know of has ever put a pop-up piston in a saw from the factory except the 028 super. 

I'm not saying it won't build compression, or even run forever. But what I am saying is I think there is a better way...


----------



## Red97 (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Again, we're talking saws. Air cooled, small cc two strokes.
> 
> No manufacture that I know of has ever put a pop-up piston in a saw from the factory except the 028 super.
> 
> I'm not saying it won't build compression, or even run forever. But what I am saying is I think there is a better way...


 
I agree. A tighter quench will make more power than a pop up. Now If you match a dome exactly to the combustion chamber than you can get best of both worlds, tight quench and good flame travel.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 18, 2014)

Flattening the squish band to achieve higher squish velocity stops detonation. A popup interferes with that. 

You guys can go back and forth all day.......but I know my way is better.

Because I say so.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> I'm all about accheiving a higher compression ratio, without hindering flow across the piston crown. A popup will hinder flow. I've seen it with my own two eyes. Heavy carbon buildup, uneven piston wash and even detonation.
> 
> How many saws came factory with a pop-up piston? Only one that I'm aware of, the 028 super.
> 
> Nobody ever wonders why?



That's not really correct. Many older saws had variations in piston design, Remington even had a piston that directed flow with a huge lump on top of the piston. With that said I completely agree with you. How much will it effect performance? likely very little IMHO. I still don't care for them, especially in a true work saw.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 18, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> That's not really correct. Many older saws had variations in piston design, Remington even had a piston that directed flow with a huge lump on top of the piston. With that said I completely agree with you. How much will it effect performance? likely very little IMHO. I still don't care for them, especially in a true work saw.



Maybe I should had said in the last half century. Haha


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 18, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Maybe I should had said in the last half century. Haha



 Every manufacture has it's own philosophy, the same thing can be said for us saw hacks.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 19, 2014)

Im just glad all of you guys are getting along. Even if you all see things differently, your willingness to share, debate, and discuss this stuff benefits every one on the forum. Competitiveness is good for the Consumer/Us.


----------



## Jim Timber (Nov 19, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> That's not really correct. Many older saws had variations in piston design, Remington even had a piston that directed flow with a huge lump on top of the piston. With that said I completely agree with you. How much will it effect performance? likely very little IMHO. I still don't care for them, especially in a true work saw.



How many rev'd to 14K? 

Mainly just wanted to sub to this one, but that's a big difference between the days of draftsmen using pencils and modern SolidWorks with flow modeling so pervasive in the engineering departments now. If they completely dropped the dome/pop up from the designs, there's probably a reason. If Husky or Stihl, or whoever, could bump the power of a saw with a piston swap alone, wouldn't they be doing it? Programming the machine to cut the piston face with a step or dome wouldn't change anything on the cost of manufacturing end of things. It's not like they need to add valve reliefs.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

We've kicked this around many times over the years, and it's a great discussion. But it can get out of hand. I'm all for a little friendly ribbing.....but no fussing please.

I'm really enjoying the way this place is at the moment. The level of sharing that is going on behind the scenes is wonderful.....and can only result in better saws being built for the end user.

To hell with rivalry. 

I remember a few years back when EC was cutting squish bands, and I was still doing popups. In my mind I was convinced that compression was compression......that the shape of the piston crown didn't really matter, as long as compression was raised.

I was wrong. Eric was spot on.

I had to do a bunch of squish band mods VS popups before I was convinced though.

Will you notice the different in a worksaw? Most users will not. Chain makes far more difference than the shape of the piston crown......and most guys struggle to file a good chain. The piston crown becomes a mute point pretty damn fast in their hands. 

The pictures Jeremy posted of the piston crowns are very telling. It's plain to see that the popup becomes an obstruction to the incoming *side fed* transfer flow. If we were introducing the charge from above (like a OHV engine) then the popup would not be so much of an issue.....but we are not discussing an OHV engine here.

The last thing I want is to start up any old fussing or feuding......so I'll just leave you guys with one last thought.

My way is best.......and you all know it. So there.


----------



## MrGiggles (Nov 19, 2014)

Any idea if the 555/562 jug will fit on a 545/550?


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## sunfish (Nov 19, 2014)

MrGiggles said:


> Any idea if the 555/562 jug will fit on a 545/550?


No, not a bolt on, but I know a guy that could probably do it...


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## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

The strokes are different. Wouldn't work.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> We've kicked this around many times over the years, and it's a great discussion. But it can get out of hand. I'm all for a little friendly ribbing.....but no fussing please.
> 
> I'm really enjoying the way this place is at the moment. The level of sharing that is going on behind the scenes is wonderful.....and can only result in better saws being built for the end user.
> 
> ...




That there holds alot of truth! I went with Mastermind years ago bc I read in total silence on the site for a year before picking a builder. I enjoyed his threads, and the fact that he is so approachable. I said many years ago, that if a builder wont share his knowledge, I wont share my money... it's too hard to come by. Randy has continued to share his work and it hasnt hurt him doing so in any way. I have read every single thread he has ever done and I still have no interest in porting my own saws. He's completing number 26 and 27 this week. (may already be done). Point is, work together guys, share your knowledge, have discussions publicly and privately. There is no shortage of work, no need for egos or disputes. Your client list is constantly growing, and you never know who is reading in silence, evaluating, and choosing who they want to use. I am sure when I took that beater clamshell Echo cs520 to Randy Dec 2010 (after 47 shared emails) that Randy didnt think nothing of it. 27 saws later, he is my dearest friend, and he has a client for life.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

I still want a 520 of my own BTW.


----------



## Fire8 (Nov 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I still want a 520 of my own BTW.


----------



## DeckSetter (Nov 19, 2014)

So if it leans out and toasts a piston but the cylinder can be reused, how close to the same squish do you usually come with a new piston? Does it ever become a problem of having the squish too tight after the band has been cut and if so what do you do then? Trying to learn.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

A replacement piston fits without any drama.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Nov 19, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I intended to take pics. But once I get going, I don't like to slow down. It'll probably be back apart again. I've got a set of 562 transfer covers coming. I want to see if they make much difference.


Well either the larger covers will flow better, or because the saw lacks crank stuffers, the charge will slowdown. It will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 19, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> Well either the larger covers will flow better, or because the saw lacks crank stuffers, the charge will slowdown. It will be interesting to see what happens.


 
All things equal, the charge will be at a lower pressure and travel slower with larger (volume) covers. However, if you get more charge in (longer intake duration) to fill the larger volume, you should see a benefit feeding the bigger transfers. At least that is how I see it.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Well, I don't know what to think. Cut times don't show any improvement. However, I'm moving towards a large knot in the wood, and the wood is now frozen. We've had 10° weather since the first vids and the wood has been covered with snow since Sunday night. When listening to the before and after vids, back to back, I can hear a significant improvement in in the wood RPMs. I'm still not happy though. It does not run like the ported 562s I've ran from both Randy and Terry. I'm bummed  On the bright side, it runs absolutely perfectly. It started in 3 pulls from cold and has no hesitation of any kind.

BTW, I made 10 cuts on the other end of this log before making the test cuts. As well as it runs, I really don't it has anything to do with it learning. I could be wrong though.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm thinking I should buy a 2260 and swap topends. I'll wait and see how these 562 transfer covers help first. This is why I originally said I should start with either a 562 or 2260. Right now I don't know if it's my porting or the saw itself.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm gonna be doing my shipping on Friday Brad. I'll get those covers out then. 

If you can hear the improvement......then it's there. The wood may be killing it.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

Push harder.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

These are the covers I have.......are they different?


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 19, 2014)

get out your syringe and some oil, then you can tell us. 

Yours look cast. Brad's look stamped.


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 19, 2014)

Out of interest is the only mods you've done the ones in the pics? I have found both the inlet and exhaust ports are far more closed up than the previous models, whilst you've also left a lot in the transfers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> These are the covers I have.......are they different?


My right side cover is 6931 01/4.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna be doing my shipping on Friday Brad. I'll get those covers out then.
> 
> If you can hear the improvement......then it's there. The wood may be killing it.


I just went back out and ran it again. Maybe it is learning. It seemed to feel a little stronger. It'll hold 11,000-11,500 with a light/medium load and 9,500 when pushing on it. That's not so bad.


----------



## Ironworker (Nov 19, 2014)

That saw seems a lot more ballsy in that second video, I think it was the frozen wood, I notice the same thing when I cut frozen wood.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Out of interest is the only mods you've done the ones in the pics? I have found both the inlet and exhaust ports are far more closed up than the previous models, whilst you've also left a lot in the transfers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This saw is modded identically to the 550s I do, which is identical to this saw in every way I can see. That is except the transfer covers and lack of crank stuffers.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Ironworker said:


> That saw seems a lot more ballsy in that second video, I think it was the frozen wood, I notice the same thing when I cut frozen wood.


Oh the joys of testing mods, especially doing so on a public forum!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

They are different Brad. I'll get em in the mail in the morning. I just finished boxing them up. |

There looks like a lot of difference in the depth of them to me.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 19, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Oh the joys of testing mods, especially doing so on a public forum!


i changed 3 chains one day before i figured out my fir log was frozen


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Out of interest is the only mods you've done the ones in the pics? I have found both the inlet and exhaust ports are far more closed up than the previous models, whilst you've also left a lot in the transfers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



These saws are a little different than the older saws. They operate on velocity rather than volume. Brad is on the right track.......trust me on that. I've done about 50 562s and a slew of 550s.


----------



## jughead500 (Nov 19, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> OK, it's too late, too dark, and toooo cold!


Need vagisil? Lol


----------



## Ironworker (Nov 19, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Oh the joys of testing mods, especially doing so on a public forum!


You can send it to me for a little testing, I got a truck load of logs coming any day


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## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> They are different Brad. I'll get em in the mail in the morning. I just finished boxing them up. |
> 
> There looks like a lot of difference in the depth of them to me.


You da man! Thanks Randy. This pic that Mitch took shows both cover PNs with the 555 on the left and 562 on the right. You definitely have the covers I need!


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Ironworker said:


> You can send it to me for a little testing, I got a truck load of logs coming any day


That's what it really needs...some more run time on it.


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> These saws are a little different than the older saws. They operate on velocity rather than volume. Brad is on the right track.......trust me on that. I've done about 50 562s and a slew of 550s.


I'm fully aware it's high speed, high pressure operation, the transfer design is designed to feed from bottom to top with as little turbulence as possible, but I feel that the design lends itself to heavy coking, after 40 hours I had 1mm build up of carbon in the exhaust port, even with alternating to aspen!
Another thing is, the mufflers are so blocked up it causes crank heating, which causes the oil galleries to warp and split.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fire8 (Nov 19, 2014)

Randy modded my yeti,
And Brad I missed my 150 today was out cutting more wood missed the FedEx guy


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

Compression is now 185 PSI. I started in one pull after cooling off from the last run.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm really diving into this head long. Randy is sending me a set of 562XP transfer covers. I'll throw those on the 555 and re-test. I just bought a new Jred 2260 and will then throw this topend on it to see what difference the crank stuffers make. A man's got to do what a man's got to do, lol.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

I've tried everything you can imagine.....and probably some things you couldn't. They run the best when done simply.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 19, 2014)

.


blsnelling said:


> I'm really diving into this head long. Randy is sending me a set of 562XP transfer covers. I'll throw those on the 555 and re-test. I just bought a new Jred 2260 and will then throw this topend on it to see what difference the crank stuffers make. A man's got to do what a man's got to do, lol.


It's pretty cool to see your testing all those variables independently. I think you will learn a lot about what makes a difference with these 5 series saws.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> .
> 
> It's pretty cool to see your testing all those variables independently. I think you will learn a lot about what makes a difference with these 5 series saws.


I'm only a couple years late to the party, lol


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 19, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm only a couple years late to the party, lol



I'm really laughing out loud.....my wife is looking at me like I've lost it.


----------



## LowVolt (Nov 19, 2014)

opcorn:

Good popcorn..... Where is Pennywise at?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

Hey Terry/Randy, have you tried a little timing advance on the 555/562? I normally wouldn't on an AutoTune/MTronic saw. I wonder if the RevBoost coil in the 562 runs a little more timing than the 555. It's driving me crazy wondering what this saw needs.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 20, 2014)

I've not advanced them. I think Terry did try it though.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

It can't hurt to try. I can always put it back.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 20, 2014)

Exactly.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've tried everything you can imagine.....and probably some things you couldn't. They run the best when done simply.




KISS!


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 20, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> It's driving me crazy wondering what this saw needs.



It needs more cowbell.


----------



## LowVolt (Nov 20, 2014)

Or maybe just a hug. PM Bozo....


----------



## wyk (Nov 20, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> That's what it really needs...some more run time on it.



And a pop-up.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

reindeer said:


> And a pop-up.


It has one.


----------



## wyk (Nov 20, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> It has one.



Oh, man. Now ya done it. I know a guy here has a photo of it shows the flame unpropomagating and going all wompy eyed on ya wid da pop ups.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

reindeer said:


> Oh, man. Now ya done it. I know a guy here has a photo of it shows the flame unpropomagating and going all wompy eyed on ya wid da pop ups.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, lol. I've seen too many fantastic running saws with popups to throw the baby out with the bath water. If this saw is lacking, it's certainly not because it has a popup.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 20, 2014)

Maybe the exhaust is too high? 

lol


----------



## Homelite410 (Nov 20, 2014)

My 2260 has a popup..... Runs like bad Mo fo. Thanks to one Stout guy!

Squeak has a popup too.......


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm counting either the 562 transfer covers and/or 2260 bottom end to make the difference. I'm not touching the ports.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

It seemed to like the timing advance. I ran about 3/4 tank through it cutting firewood. It runs perfectly, even with it about 30° outside. No signs of hesitation at all.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 20, 2014)

That's good info Brad. 

I'm taking notes you know.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

I advanced it 5°. With this limited coil, it's hard to say how much it truly affected it. But it does seem to be holding more RPMs in the wood.


----------



## Deleted member 83629 (Nov 20, 2014)

wouldn't the saw be harder to start with advanced timing over retarded timing or is this different in a chainsaw.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

I didn't advance it that far. It's a non-issue.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 20, 2014)

The Tsumura T&L arrived from up north. Thanks Dave! It'll look even better on the 2260.


----------



## wyk (Nov 20, 2014)

jakewells said:


> wouldn't the saw be harder to start with advanced timing over retarded timing or is this different in a chainsaw.



I have an 044 that is unforgiving if you do not pull it over like you mean it. It's either me or the starter.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 20, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, lol. I've seen too many fantastic running saws with popups to throw the baby out with the bath water. If this saw is lacking, it's certainly not because it has a popup.



You can't deny the flow patterns B-rad.


----------



## LowVolt (Nov 20, 2014)

Why can't you just taper the edge of the popup instead if it being 90 degree edge? Making it a ramp instead of a step?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 20, 2014)

LowVolt said:


> Why can't you just taper the edge of the popup instead if it being 90 degree edge? Making it a ramp instead of a step?



I had pics of one that I made just like an 028 super, with a high polished perfect bump in the middle. Of course I can't find em now. It was a welded popup. It wasnt much better as far as flow patterns go.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 20, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> You can't deny the flow patterns B-rad.



I was the same way as Brad. 

I remember saying....compression is compression.

I was wrong.


----------



## OnTheRoad (Nov 20, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> The Tsumura T&L arrived from up north. Thanks Dave! It'll look even better on the 2260.


Thanks for posting your progress on this saw, Brad. Posts like this make this site worth visiting. 

Side note: i couldn't help but notice your table would be fine firewood.


----------



## veljko (Nov 21, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I was the same way as Brad.
> 
> I remember saying....compression is compression.
> 
> I was wrong.


Randy you have said it before somtiaimes less is more. I have learn the same way. it is only mony in qestion. sory for my english.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 21, 2014)

LowVolt said:


> Why can't you just taper the edge of the popup instead if it being 90 degree edge? Making it a ramp instead of a step?


The edges of the popup are at about a 45° angle.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 21, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> The edges of the popup are at about a 45° angle.



So, in your opinion, what does the atomized fuel do once it hits that angle? Is it launched twords the combustion chamber at 45 degrees?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 21, 2014)

All I know is that there are some mighty strong running saws out there with popups. IMHO, it's far from the most important piece of the pie. Does it make a difference? Maybe. However, I don't think it's a significant difference.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think it does the macarena dance


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 21, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> All I know is that there are some mighty strong running saws out there with popups. IMHO, it's far from the most important piece of the pie. Does it make a difference? Maybe. However, I don't think it's a significant difference.



That's fine.

But what do u think the fuel does?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 21, 2014)

is it puddling u on top ?


----------



## walexa07 (Nov 21, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> That's fine.
> 
> But what do u think the fuel does?


What is the height of this popup? It looks substantial in the photo?

Waylan


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 21, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> is it puddling u on top ?



Look at the direction change on th rear transfers. And the hot spots where th carbon is the greatest...




walexa07 said:


> What is the height of this popup? It looks substantial in the photo?
> 
> Waylan



I'm not 100%. I can check later...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 21, 2014)

That picture is worth 10,000 words.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 21, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> That picture is worth 10,000 words.



That's the one I was looking for but couldn't find. Found it!!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would try a different oil so it does not do that anymore


----------



## cat-face timber (Nov 21, 2014)

What is the best, and by best I mean stable and tough, AT Husky makes?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 21, 2014)

You used Stable, Tough, and AT Husky in the same sentence. That's an impossibility.


----------



## pioneerguy600 (Nov 21, 2014)

cat-face timber said:


> What is the best, and by best I mean stable and tough, AT Husky makes?



!!!


----------



## cat-face timber (Nov 21, 2014)

Mastermind, I was going to have you fit a AT system on my Husky 288...


----------



## roncoinc (Nov 21, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> That's fine.
> 
> But what do u think the fuel does?



I know what caused that.


----------



## wyk (Nov 21, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> That's the one I was looking for but couldn't find. Found it!!



Yeah, but in all fairness, that is the olympus mons of pop ups  And it's from a snowmobile running Castrol "R" at 16:1!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 21, 2014)

cat-face timber said:


> Mastermind, I was going to have you fit a AT system on my Husky 288...



Then let's start with the M-Tronic system. It's less trouble prone.  



reindeer said:


> Yeah, but in all fairness, that is the olympus mons of pop ups  And it's from a snowmobile running Castrol "R" at 16:1!



That is out of a 346.......at 32:1


----------



## wyk (Nov 21, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> That is out of a 346.......at 32:1



How did it do at the GTG?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 21, 2014)

It lost.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 21, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It lost.



to what?


----------



## wyk (Nov 21, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It lost.



Stupid pop ups!


----------



## sunfish (Nov 21, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> to what?


Probably another 346xp with a pop-up...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 21, 2014)

I believe Don is correct.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Nov 22, 2014)

Again I agree with Jeramey and Randy 100% when it comes to pop-up pistons. However we are talking about pop ups in the .020" to .040" range not .200" or more. This is in line with some of the saws made 40/50 years ago.

Let's move on to the original point of this thread, we can see who pees the farthest in person. I know I'll loose, because I can't push that hard without hurting myself


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 22, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> You can't deny the flow patterns B-rad.




Y'all need to chew on this principle;

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pber.html


After all the air we breath is a fluid eh?


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

OK.......

Back to the 555. 

I think the transfer covers are gonna make a big difference. 

Oh........and Andre. I know I'll lose in the peeing contest. At my age I'm just happy when I miss my feet.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

I'd be stoked if they showed up today. I'm super anxious to see how it responds.

Here's a question for ya. If this saw works off base compression and transfer velocity, then how will opening up the transfer ducts make it stronger? Just some fuel for discussionopcorn: I expect them to make a significant difference as well.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Here's a question for ya. If this saw works off base compression and transfer velocity, then how will opening up the transfer ducts make it stronger? Just some fuel for discussionopcorn: I expect them to make a significant difference as well.


Probably more volume without reducing velocity much.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 22, 2014)

This cylinder was likely designed for the 562xp and larger transfers. 
Then they just slap on some smaller transfer covers to reduce power output for the 555...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

Same thing as the 365XT, and the 51.4mm XPW jug. They restricted transfer flow to detune the saw.


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Here's a question for ya. If this saw works off base compression and transfer velocity, then how will opening up the transfer ducts make it stronger? Just some fuel for discussionopcorn:



They look to have a better shape...more hook. I personally think that transfer shape has lots to do with performance.

Anytime a fluid is flowing through a vessel and you add volume (think cross sectional area) to the vessel, you decrease pressure. Velocity follows suit. You then need to increase the pressure to increase velocity. This tells me 2 things...the upper transfers time area will have a bigger impact on velocity with the larger covers. This may be why the 562 crank is stuffed.


----------



## wyk (Nov 22, 2014)

sunfish said:


> This cylinder was likely designed for the 562xp and larger transfers.
> Then they just slap on some smaller transfer covers to reduce power output for the 555...



Man, I despise it when marketing takes a finely engineered product and cripples it to create a niche. Yeah, ya got more money, but you've sold your soul, and right in front of all of us. Be ashamed. You hear me, Porsche?


----------



## 04ultra (Nov 22, 2014)

Time for some custom cnc billet covers..


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 22, 2014)

04ultra said:


> Time for some custom cnc billet covers..



If we're going that far, we might as well get ones anodized in some fancy color...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

Pink? 

I really like pink.


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 22, 2014)

Puce, Mauve, or Chartreuse.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

Oh My.


----------



## 04ultra (Nov 22, 2014)

Jacob J. said:


> If we're going that far, we might as well get ones anodized in some fancy color...



Hmmmmmm.........LOL


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

Jacob J. said:


> If we're going that far, we might as well get ones anodized in some fancy color...



I prefer Rust-Oleum...


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

sunfish said:


> Probably another 346xp with a pop-up...



Lol. Probably.


But you know why? 

There wasn't any cut chamber saws there that day. Hahahaha


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 22, 2014)

Fact is if you popped out a bunch ,people would buy them if they worked or not ,just because they are shiny .


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

And........that was before I really had the 346 figured out. That day all I gave a damn about was winning the 066 build off.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Nov 22, 2014)

Four Paws said:


> They look to have a better shape...more hook. I personally think that transfer shape has lots to do with performance.
> 
> Anytime a fluid is flowing through a vessel and you add volume (think cross sectional area) to the vessel, you decrease pressure. Velocity follows suit. You then need to increase the pressure to increase velocity. This tells me 2 things...the upper transfers time area will have a bigger impact on velocity with the larger covers. This may be why the 562 crank is stuffed.


My thoughts exactly..


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> And........that was before I really had the 346 figured out. That day all I gave a damn about was winning the 066 build off.



How big a pop up was in that 66?


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 22, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> How big a pop up was in that 66?



If I remember correctly, Randy won that build-off with an aftermarket piston and cylinder.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 22, 2014)

So, AM cylinder and a giant pop- up is the way to go?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

Jacob J. said:


> If I remember correctly, Randy won that build-off with an aftermarket piston and cylinder.



Yup. 

Some moron from Ky gave it to him. :-/


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## sachsmo (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## sachsmo (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## komatsuvarna (Nov 22, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Lol. Probably.
> 
> 
> But you know why?
> ...



I seem to remember a real strong popped up 346 that lives in New Castle .


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

sunfish said:


> So, AM cylinder and a giant pop- up is the way to go?



Now your cooking with Crisco!!


----------



## sunfish (Nov 22, 2014)

I have a real strong pop up 346 & a real strong flat top 346. But no AM cylinders.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

That saw didn't have a popup silly. 

The 066/660 will never be a serious runner built that way. 

Oh yeah........it was an old Chinky AM jug.


----------



## Husqavarna Guy (Nov 22, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> OK.......
> 
> Back to the 555.
> 
> ...



Randy do you think the transfer covers would make a difference on a stock saw or just the ported one? Also what is the part # on those you sent Brad? Thanks


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

I think they would make a big difference on a stock saws as well. 

They are not sold separate from the jug though.


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 22, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Yup.
> 
> Some moron from Ky gave it to him. :-/



There's morons all over. I represent the moron contingent from Oregon. 

Three years ago or so I gave away a NOS Homelite 8800 cylinder thinking I would never have a use for it. 
I just recently had to buy one, which luckily a member here had a good used one.


----------



## SCHallenger (Nov 22, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> View attachment 381315



I have one of those in O Scale brass. Hope to make a Pere Marquette out of it some day!


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 22, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Then let's start with the M-Tronic system. It's less trouble prone.
> 
> 
> 
> ......



That's odd, as it is the AT!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

That is complete bull **** Niko. I do wish you would stop telling the world that bit of rubbish.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

From January......



opinion said:


> Sawtroll was the one that kept saying his understanding was that STIHL bought AT tech, but also said he doesn't have any documentation to prove it. He would say this everytime, so eventually people are gonna take that and spread it all over the internet as fact. That's how rumors get started, especially when the source is an from intellect like Nikko. It's dangerous being smart and making statements w/o facts. People tend to trust that information because they figure the source is good.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Four Paws said:


> Anytime a fluid is flowing through a vessel and you add volume (think cross sectional area) to the vessel, you decrease pressure. Velocity follows suit. You then need to increase the pressure to increase velocity. This tells me 2 things...the upper transfers time area will have a bigger impact on velocity with the larger covers. This may be why the 562 crank is stuffed.


Bingo. I think the larger transfer covers and crank stuffers work hand in hand. The 562XP covers did help improve performance, but I think the stuffers will make a noticeable difference as well when I swap this topend onto the 2260 next week.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 22, 2014)

ln any case l would take the opinion of someone who operates on these systems and around them for a living more seriously than someone who does not. Everyone who's been around AS long enough comes to realise Niko loves Huskies and passionately hates Stihls. He even hates Stihl chain and prefers Oregon...that is how much he don't like stihl. However on the basic stuff he has helped ooodles of noobs with little things that others won't bother with and his dedication to the site is unprecedented. Do l take everything he says as gospel....hell no, do l value/respect his contribution to the site.....absolutely.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Bingo. I think the larger transfer covers and crank stuffers work hand in hand. The 562XP covers did help improve performance, but I think the stuffers will make a noticeable difference as well when I swap this topend onto the 2260 next week.


Does this mean the 555 is stuffed or just the 562:


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

CR888 said:


> Does this mean the 555 is stuffed or just the 562:


No. I'm not splitting the 555 to put stuffers in it. I'll simply take this topend and drop it on a 2260 next week.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Here's the 555 with the 562XP transfer covers. This *was* another brand new Stihl RS chain, .058 gauge for the Tsumura bar. I hit a screw in my log stand with it. So, it had to be filed. I'll use this same B&C next week when I run this topend on the 2260. The other new RS chain that I was running on the Husky bar hit a steel post in the wood lot where I've been running it. I hurt it pretty bad and had to grind it. BTW, the saw now has 4 tanks of fuel through it. Also, I had to cut off 8"-10" of the log to get past a knot. Hopefully I'm at a point where I can get a decent comparison with the 2260 next week.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Here are a couple pics to show the differences in the transfer covers. The 562XP covers are .085" deeper than those from the 555. That's a pretty significant difference.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Here are a few pics of the port work.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

I also want to give a big thanks to Randy for sending me these 562XP transfer covers!


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Here's the 555 with the 562XP transfer covers. This *was* another brand new Stihl RS chain, .058 gauge for the Tsumura bar. I hit a screw in my log stand with it. So, it had to be filed. I'll use this same B&C next week when I run this topend on the 2260. The other new RS chain that I was running on the Husky bar hit a steel post in the wood lot where I've been running it. I hurt it pretty bad and had to grind it. BTW, the saw now has 4 tanks of fuel through it. Also, I had to cut off 8"-10" of the log to get past a knot. Hopefully I'm at a point where I can get a decent comparison with the 2260 next week.




I'd lean it out a little. sounds rich...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I also want to give a big thanks to Randy for sending me these 562XP transfer covers!



No problem......I'm as interested as you in the differences they make.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> No problem......I'm as interested as you in the differences they make.


They made some difference, but nothing huge. They certainly didn't hurt it. I think they will work hand in hand with the stuffers, bumping the velocity back up with the wider transfer ducts? What do you think of that theory.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> I'd lean it out a little. sounds rich...


I'm with ya. I still like my screwdrivers!


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 22, 2014)

opcorn:


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Don't be selfish now. Pass some of that opcorn: over here!


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Don't be selfish now. Pass some of that opcorn: over here!



Have you checked the tradin post lately.... Im about as generous as I can get. Sharing plenty.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 22, 2014)

Good thread Brad! lt shows commitment when you do the vids in the dark lol. Would narrower transfer ports give faster velocity/less volume and wider ports give slower velocity/more volume?? Maybe l am on the wrong track but when l need to clean my truck l put a tiny nozzle on the hose which massively increases the velocity of the water coming through it where as when l need to fill a pool of water the nozzle acts as a 'choke point' slowing down volume.


----------



## hoskvarna (Nov 22, 2014)

Husqavarna Guy said:


> Randy do you think the transfer covers would make a difference on a stock saw or just the ported one? Also what is the part # on those you sent Brad? Thanks



thats what mitch did to my 555.
562 jug and stuffers,no portin,ran harder.
I have not run a ported 562 but my 555 sure runs harder!
and the muff mod.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

CR888 said:


> Good thread Brad! lt shows commitment when you do the vids in the dark lol. Would narrower transfer ports give faster velocity/less volume and wider ports give slower velocity/more volume?? Maybe l am on the wrong track but when l need to clean my truck l put a tiny nozzle on the hose which massively increases the velocity of the water coming through it where as when l need to fill a pool of water the nozzle acts as a 'choke point' slowing down volume.


This is just a theory until I drop this topend on the 2260. But, I think the wider transfer covers are needed to flow the volume need to make the power that the 562/2260 does. The stuffers are then needed to get the base compression back where it needs to be.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

hoskvarna said:


> thats what mitch did to my 555.
> 562 jug and stuffers,no portin,ran harder.
> I have not run a ported 562 but my 555 sure runs harder!
> and the muff mod.


I'm going the easy route and just swapping bottom ends  If I were committed to sticking with the 555, I'd have to investigate that option.


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> No. I'm not splitting the 555 to put stuffers in it. I'll simply take this topend and drop it on a 2260 next week.



Don't blame you. Heard that Husky magnesium strip easy. Use once and throw away, kind of like torque to yield head bolts in automobiles.

The removable covers make grinding to transfers so nice, don't they?


----------



## Four Paws (Nov 22, 2014)

Brad, you have the energy to cc the covers and the 555 case vs 2260 (562) case? I think it would provide an interesting data point when compared to the port timing and saw performance.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 22, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> This is just a theory until I drop this topend on the 2260. But, I think the wider transfer covers are needed to flow the volume need to make the power that the 562/2260 does. The stuffers are then needed to get the base compression back where it needs to be.



I've got a theory. You should ditch the popup on the next build. Don't be scared brad...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

Don't ever be afraid to go places you've never been.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 22, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Don't ever be afraid to go places you've never been.





wigglesworth said:


> I've got a theory. You should ditch the popup on the next build. Don't be scared brad...


I'm still considering it. I might end up ruin this piston anyway with some intake port duration testing.


----------



## nmurph (Nov 22, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Same thing as the 365XT, and the 51.4mm XPW jug. They restricted transfer flow to detune the saw.


Are you adding the 75cc's transfers are too narrow?


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 22, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Are you adding the 75cc's transfers are too narrow?



Randy has posted about the "shelf" or extra step cast into the lower transfer tunnels on the 51.4mm jug. All the 51.4mm/75cc jugs I've seen have this step. It definitely impedes flow.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Are you adding the 75cc's transfers are too narrow?



Yes Neal. The 51.4mm "XPW" cylinder is actually a 375K cutoff saw jug. It's designed for more low end torque, and is meant to operate at a lower RPM than the 372XP 50mm jug. 

They made the main transfer tunnels and the upper main transfer ports smaller.


----------



## nmurph (Nov 22, 2014)

Do you prefer to make turn off the upper transfers a sharper angle like an L, or more of a lazy turn? I understand the time/area implications, but it seems to me that a smoother turn would disturb the flow less. ..school me


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2014)

That's a tricky spot when you are raising the transfers quite a lot. If you're not careful, you will cut out the top. I like to try to cut the transfer roof as flat as possible about .150" or so back into the port, then round and blend the back into the existing tunnel. 

Have you noticed that on the 372 the main is flat, and the secondary is aimed toward the combustion chamber?


----------



## 7sleeper (Nov 23, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Here are a couple pics to show the differences in the transfer covers. The 562XP covers are .085" deeper than those from the 555. That's a pretty significant difference.



What I don't quite understand is that if the size is different and it is supposed to have such an impact , why are the saws in the cut so close? 

7


----------



## CR888 (Nov 23, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> What I don't quite understand is that if the size is different and it is supposed to have such an impact , why are the saws in the cut so close?
> 
> l see what your saying and a dyno(did l just say dyno)could explain this better but as the Monkey said they tend to 'detune' cheaper models this way. Maybe its the bigger transfer covers that equates to Revboost.


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 23, 2014)

SCHallenger said:


> I have one of those in O Scale brass. Hope to make a Pere Marquette out of it some day!




Chit,

I'm so old I remember when the railroads had people stationed at the crossings in their little 'shack'.

Had a pot bellied stove it there and when a train came to the crossing they would go out and hold their STOP sign to warn motorists!

YUP!,

them old Nickle Plates were some fast moving trains fo' sure!


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 23, 2014)

This is the *REAL TRIPLE NICKLE!
*
Let's see how Brad or Randy would port one of those?


Now back to your regularly scheduled commercial.


----------



## 7sleeper (Nov 23, 2014)

CR888 said:


> .....Maybe its the bigger transfer covers that equates to Revboost.


That was what I was trying to imply. But as Brad has already noted he saw an improvement. So maybe there is still more to it. But since the modifications have already progressed so far we will never find out.

But obviously everyone wants to play with a train so this thread is slowly but surely becomming worthless. 

7


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 23, 2014)

Nope just lightening up one O' brads endless commercials.


I'm sure brad and Randy are far more intelligent then the engineers who designed these things?

Go have a beer eh?


----------



## sachsmo (Nov 23, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> That was what I was trying to imply. But as Brad has already noted he saw an improvement. So maybe there is still more to it. But since the modifications have already progressed so far we will never find out.
> 
> But obviously everyone wants to play with a train so this thread is slowly but surely becomming worthless.
> 
> 7



Nope,

just me.

Guess if'n you are going to 'de-rail' a thread why not use a *TRAIN*?


Shoot them old boys have made some comments that would make T-bones' comments sound like Philosophy.


Been around and seen it all, Entrepreneurs' Fo' sure!


Carry on, I'll go away


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 23, 2014)

Some people just have to hate by nature. Must be a miserable life. Too bad he can't understand doing it just because it's something you enjoy. I've been doing build thread much longer than I've been a sponsor.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 23, 2014)

He's just having some fun Brad. Ol' Sachsmo is one of the good ones around here in my book. 

I don't think his comments were really meant to lash out at you......but once a guy gets riled up......everyone is fair game.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 23, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Some people just have to hate by nature. Must be a miserable life. Too bad he can't understand doing it just because it's something you enjoy. I've been doing build thread much longer than I've been a sponsor.



I've been sponsoring derailment threads since I was a pup....

Carry on B-rad...carry on...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 23, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> What I don't quite understand is that if the size is different and it is supposed to have such an impact , why are the saws in the cut so close?
> 
> 7



Because chain speed is chain speed. 

That why a 395 ain't much faster than a 346 in small wood. 

If the saw has to power to pull the chain at the same speed as the bigger, or more powerful saw.....well, there won't be much gain. 

Posting videos of an ongoing project is a tricky thing. Sometimes the gains are hard to see in a chunk of wood.....but they make the saw a hell of a lot more fun to run, less touchy in the cut, etc.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 23, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> I've been sponsoring derailment threads since I was a pup....
> 
> Carry on B-rad...carry on...



Hello Bozo.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 23, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Hello Bozo.



Top of the morning to ya azz-hat....


----------



## 7sleeper (Nov 23, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Because chain speed is chain speed.
> 
> That why a 395 ain't much faster than a 346 in small wood.
> 
> ...


I was refering to the 555 and 562. I have read so many comments that they are hardly different in the cut.

And I understand that the vids are a tricky thing, that was why I am asking. A few are now comenting that transfer covers are one of the "majic" properties in the difference, yet in comparrison between 555 & 562 would that be enough?
And I also understand that gains are sometimes hard to see in a chunk of wood! Or else I wouldn't have added the following comment.


7sleeper said:


> ... *But as Brad has already noted he saw an improvement.* So maybe there is still more to it. But since the modifications have already progressed so far we will never find out.
> ....


But in the end it is all about the gains in a chunk off wood...

7


----------



## 7sleeper (Nov 23, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Some people just have to hate by nature. Must be a miserable life. Too bad he can't understand doing it just because it's something you enjoy. I've been doing build thread much longer than I've been a sponsor.


No reason at all to justify yourself! You do what you do, any one unhappy doesn't have to visit this thread!

7


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 23, 2014)

What I'm trying to explain is why the 555 and 562 are close in cut speed. 

They both will spin the chain at X speed. When the difference in power becomes apparent is in larger wood.


----------



## 7sleeper (Nov 23, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> What I'm trying to explain is why the 555 and 562 are close in cut speed.
> 
> They both will spin the chain at X speed. When the difference in power becomes apparent is in larger wood.


Ok! About what size are we talking about? I presume a 20 inch bar will be the same but after 24 the difference emerges, or even longer? Or in other words with a 20 inch I could file away the rackers on a 562 but couldn't do that on a 555? 

7


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 23, 2014)

You are getting it now. 

You can lean on the 562 harder.....and produce a faster cut time.


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 23, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> That is complete bull **** Niko. I do wish you would stop telling the world that bit of rubbish.


Design patents!
Are you also going to argue that 2-mix and the spring av isn't also bought from husky?
Over here (UK) Stihl will quite happily tell you that it is rented, but they'll also point out that they own zama (but use walbro in the m-tronic carbs) and also the elastostart thing on the t540.

But thank you for the thread brad, we eventually got to the bit I wanted to see 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 23, 2014)

The MS261CM has a Zama. 

You guys are so full of chit.


----------



## wyk (Nov 24, 2014)

Wooo! WHat I miss?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

The 2260....
*On Vehicle for Delivery Today*


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Nov 24, 2014)

"Triple Nickel."



What you did. It's there, and I see it.


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 24, 2014)

I was gone for a few days and missed all this fun, hey chuck what up ,"I have a potty mouth"............................................................................................................................................................................................................................ squirrel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

The fun isn't over yet, but I hope I'm closer to the end than the beginning!


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The MS261CM has a Zama.
> 
> You guys are so full of chit.



Yet the 241m, 441 and 661 I've seen all had walbro.

If you want to disagree fine, but why is autotune patented but m-tronic only trade-marked?

Also, you can check various patent listings, I did before posting the reply. So I believe this time, you're full of it! 

20140209078 <- autotune that's currently used
20140183315 <- magnet and sensor for the adjustment whilst running
20130332049 <- Rev-limiting autotune
20130133618 <- autotune memory/stats
20120318143 <- the current x-torq
20120304966 <- ignition timing control
20100011597 <- more autotune stuff!
20090145399 <- an autotune patent (this is what Stihl use)
20080302345 <- older form of the new x-torq

Oddly, Stihl own the patent for the x-torq that the 372xp uses:
20100242904
But this patent only happened in 2010, so I assume it must have been sold and transferred into Stihl's name


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Nov 24, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> I was gone for a few days and missed all this fun, hey chuck what up ,"I have a potty mouth"............................................................................................................................................................................................................................ squirrel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




Yo Yo Yo waddup T...!!!


How's yer hammer ben hangin' these days mang....?!


----------



## wyk (Nov 24, 2014)

Wrastlin's fake


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Yet the 241m, 441 and 661 I've seen all had walbro.
> 
> If you want to disagree fine, but why is autotune patented but m-tronic only trade-marked?
> 
> ...



But......but......but........

I've got nada.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

Redmax invented the wheel. 

Now what have you got?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

My head hurts!


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 24, 2014)

Zenoah,


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 24, 2014)

It was quite interesting reading through those patents, God only knows what they've got planned with a 'wall or floor mounted chainsaw' although a lot of it was gibberish to me!
Oh and zenoah may have invented the wheel, but it's coloured orange now!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

If your reading is correct that means Stihl and Husky share more that we might think. Or am I way off base again? lol


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> If your reading is correct that means Stihl and Husky share more that we might think. Or am I way off base again? lol


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

No......it's black magic......

........and the bastards are working together on it.


----------



## rburg (Nov 24, 2014)

I think Husqvarna designed the 044 & 361 for Still.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 24, 2014)

rburg said:


> I think Husqvarna designed the 044 & 361 for Still.



I used to like you.... I really, really did...


----------



## rburg (Nov 24, 2014)

Remember how much Niko likes the 361.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 24, 2014)

rburg said:


> Remember how much Niko likes the 361.



I sure do like mine. Both of em...


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> If your reading is correct that means Stihl and Husky share more that we might think. Or am I way off base again? lol


I believe there were *top secret* negotiations back in 2006 about husky buying Stihl, but it never happened, so I guess husky may have bought shares in the company, which would make it in their best interest to keep Stihl as one of the top 2, until one swallows mak-dolmar up, then the competition will be pretty much gone.
I know the production of cylinders are now made by huskys choice of company (not Mahle), whilst Stihl make the e-carb bodies, husky then adds the magic computer bit. Perhaps if husky had bought them, we wouldn't have the God-awful 4-mix!

On the other hand, the fuel injection system looks like a winner, just gotta wait for them to switch over to that! Although could prove awkward for porting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 24, 2014)

Will there be any food served during this thread ?


----------



## rburg (Nov 24, 2014)

Well we are talking about a balogna saw.


----------



## OnTheRoad (Nov 24, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Will there be any food served during this thread ?


Yes, soda and 1/4 ounce of pretzels in a shiny foil bag. Would you like an extra pretzel bag for $1.25?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 24, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> I believe there were *top secret* negotiations back in 2006 about husky buying Stihl, but it never happened, so I guess husky may have bought shares in the company, which would make it in their best interest to keep Stihl as one of the top 2, until one swallows mak-dolmar up, then the competition will be pretty much gone.
> I know the production of cylinders are now made by huskys choice of company (not Mahle), whilst Stihl make the e-carb bodies, husky then adds the magic computer bit. Perhaps if husky had bought them, we wouldn't have the God-awful 4-mix!
> 
> On the other hand, the fuel injection system looks like a winner, just gotta wait for them to switch over to that! Although could prove awkward for porting.
> ...


----------



## luckydad (Nov 24, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Will there be any food served during this thread ?


I'll bet the guy above can tell you that, he seems to know a lot about everything !![emoji4][emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

Husky buying Stihl???

OK.....you just lost all your credibility. 

Bye.


----------



## rburg (Nov 24, 2014)

Has anybody heard from Brad lately?


----------



## OnTheRoad (Nov 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Husky buying Stihl???
> 
> OK.....you just lost all your credibility.
> 
> Bye.


Husky took down building 7 with ninja thermite. So it's entirely plausible.


----------



## Deleted member 83629 (Nov 24, 2014)

if you can't beat them.... buy them that is what happened to redmax


----------



## LowVolt (Nov 24, 2014)

rburg said:


> Has anybody heard from Brad lately?


I think he is having a little manaja twa with a certain 555 and a 2260...


----------



## 04ultra (Nov 24, 2014)

rburg said:


> Has anybody heard from Brad lately?




opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 24, 2014)

rburg said:


> Has anybody heard from Brad lately?



He's sharpening his saw for Turkey Day.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

Who's Brad?


----------



## redfin (Nov 24, 2014)

Alright you smarties, what's the deal with the external transfers? Is it strictly an "ease of manufacturing" or does it have performance benefit?


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 24, 2014)

redfin said:


> Alright you smarties, what's the deal with the external transfers? Is it strictly an "ease of manufacturing" or does it have performance benefit?



Great question! opcorn:


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

OK, the results are in. I had the 555 topend on the 2260 less than 45 minutes after Brown Santa delivered it. My what a difference. Even with almost no run time on the bottom end to break it in, it's substantially stronger than the 555. Be it the stuffers or the ignition/software, it's a big difference. You can lean a lot more on the 2260. Matter of fact, the stock 2260 is stronger than the ported 555! See for yourself. Now don't get me wrong and bad mouth the 555. Remember my first impression of it? It's a very strong saw that will not leave you disappointed. The 562/2260 is just that much stronger though.

Ported 2260


Stock 2260


Ported 555


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

Unfortunately, the 2260 is a bogger. It has a lean bog, even with the stock topend on it. Looks like I'll be needing a EL48 and a software update.


----------



## rburg (Nov 24, 2014)

Enjoyed the new videos. I definitely like the the looks of the red and black better, but either of those saws would be fun to use.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

I don't think the videos do the 2260 justice. The first thing I did after putting the ported topend on it was to go over and make 8 cuts in bar length hardwood. The difference was immediately noticeable. It definitely has more attitude. I wants to rev harder in the cut, allowing you to lean on it harder.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

The ported topend is back on the 555. It is now for sale. I'd prefer to sell it with the 20" RSN Husky bar, but would sell it PHO. This was a research project, so I'm not looking to get saw price + the normal porting prices. I'll pass this saw on for what I have in it. It only has 4 tanks of fuel through it. The price is $500 PHO, or $560 with the Husqvarna bar and RS chain. The chain is half gone due to hitting a steel stake. It's been ground, then filed, and the rakers set. PM me if you're interested in a one time deal like this.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 24, 2014)

so the top video is a ported 2260 with 2260 topend or 555 topend?


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 24, 2014)

could the fact that the stock 2260 is stronger than the ported 555 be because you didn't strictly adhere to the less is more method? in my experience these saws are very very very very very easily over ported.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> could the fact that the stock 2260 is stronger than the ported 555 be because you didn't strictly adhere to the less is more method? in my experience these saws are very very very very very easily over ported.


I suppose that's a possibility. However, the ported topend is significantly stronger on the 2260 than the 555. To me, that proves the performance difference between the two saws.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 24, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Unfortunately, the 2260 is a bogger. It has a lean bog, even with the stock topend on it. Looks like I'll be needing a EL48 and a software update.



So it ran good, now it runs bad?

I'm lost...


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> so the top video is a ported 2260 with 2260 topend or 555 topend?


Video one is the 2260 with the ported topend off the 555. It has 562 transfer covers, so is effectively a 562 topend.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> So it ran good, now it runs bad?
> 
> I'm lost...


The 555 runs perfectly with no bog of any kind. The 2260 runs stronger, but has the infamous lean bog off idle. You can also here when coming down from WOT. It simply needs more L fuel.


----------



## albert (Nov 24, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Unfortunately, the 2260 is a bogger. It has a lean bog, even with the stock topend on it. Looks like I'll be needing a EL48 and a software update.


 Wow, they are really on top of rectifying this problem. What a joke.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

albert said:


> Wow, they are really on top of rectifying this problem. What a joke.


This is a 2013 saw.


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 24, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> The 555 runs perfectly with no bog of any kind. The 2260 runs stronger, but has the infamous lean bog off idle. You can also here when coming down from WOT. It simply needs more L fuel.



Bologna...

Those saws don't have carb problems. I read it on the interweb...

Either way, you kinda blurred up the ending here brad. So ur keeping the one that doesn't run right, and selling the one that runs with no probz? 

Did the new saw do its lean thingy with the ported top end? 

Did u try the small transfer covers on the stuffed bottom end?

Did u ever cut the chamber?

What is the capital of Assyria?


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2014)

Definitely bologna. I needs me a screwydriver kind of carb, lol.

Yes, I'm keeping the 2260, the one with the lean bog off idle. It does it with both the ported topend and modded muffler, and with the stock topend and stock muffler. Besides, I'm looking for the most performance I can get out of this platform. The 562/2260 gives that, as it should.

I did not try the smaller transfer covers on the 2260. I'm getting tired of tearing these things down! Just tonight, I pulled the 555 topend, pulled the 2260 topend, installed the 555 topend on the 2260, removed the that topend from the 2260, re-installed the original topend on the 2260, and re-installed the 555 topend back on the 555. Confused yet?!!!!!!!!!!!

No, I have not cut a combustion chamber yet. I may do that to the 2260..............and then again, I might not

The capital of Assyria? Well, that might be more complicated than a 441! I understand that it's had four different capitals!


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 24, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> What is the capital of Assyria?



"A".


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

Jacob J. said:


> "A".




Winner winner chicken dinner.


----------



## wyk (Nov 24, 2014)

I blame the pop-up


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm keeping my opinion to myself.


----------



## albert (Nov 24, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> This is a 2013 saw.


 Oh,my bad. 3 or 4 years probably is not enough time to iron it out.


----------



## CR888 (Nov 25, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Unfortunately, the 2260 is a bogger. It has a lean bog, even with the stock topend on it. Looks like I'll be needing a EL48 and a software update.


It surely does not have the stutter stumble revbust lean face splatter. lt only happens to a very small percentage of them...hardly noticable really...there nothin wong with them husky carbs....its operator error...did you read the manual's 'how to operate' section? l am kinda sad the nickel did'nt proove that 562's suck. In all honesty Bradley, thank you for doing this thread and having a go we just have to put this one in the R&D 
dept.


----------



## Pud (Nov 25, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Design patents!
> Are you also going to argue that 2-mix and the spring av isn't also bought from husky?
> Over here (UK) Stihl will quite happily tell you that it is rented, but they'll also point out that they own zama (but use walbro in the m-tronic carbs) and also the elastostart thing on the t540.
> 
> ...


How about husqvarna using stihls compensator carb design , patents eventually expire and become fair game , 550 xps run a walbro aswell


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 25, 2014)

What shall I re-name this project? How about Double Deuce Triple Twenty, i.e. DDTT?


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 25, 2014)

Pud said:


> How about husqvarna using stihls compensator carb design , patents eventually expire and become fair game , 550 xps run a walbro aswell


Read all my previous posts carefully, the 2 seem to be sharing a LOT of patents currently. The 555/560 556/562 use zama carbs.

The 550 is still on its first carb design whilst the 60cc saws are on their third! I think that just goes to show the reliability...

And yes, patents expire, but other people can't patent the exact same design shortly after. Global patents also last 10 years, so how have dolmar been able to use either design considering 2008 was the earliest patent I found?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 25, 2014)

Well, all that aside, it is what it is. I've taken on the task of making it run right, and I'll just have to do whatever I have to do, even if that means buying another carb and the AT service tool.


----------



## tlandrum (Nov 25, 2014)

you win some, you lose some. that's how r and d works


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 25, 2014)

And sometimes we run around in circles skipping and singing loudly. I love those days.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 25, 2014)

I'm setting in the corner scratchin' me noggin!


----------



## old-cat (Nov 25, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> And sometimes we run around in circles skipping and singing loudly. I love those days.


That's where I am right at this moment on account of the BUM deal I got on my latest 036 Pro. That bloody thing is going to be a basket case for a LONG time!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Nov 25, 2014)

Maybe if you paint the case gray it will make some gains


----------



## redfin (Nov 25, 2014)

redfin said:


> Alright you smarties, what's the deal with the external transfers? Is it strictly an "ease of manufacturing" or does it have performance benefit?



Im sure this was glanced over with the exciting videos last page.


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 25, 2014)

redfin said:


> Im sure this was glanced over with the exciting videos last page.



Ease of manufacture mostly and it lowers the cost of casting the jugs. It also makes the QC process easier, but then it provides yet another potential point for air leaks.


----------



## Philbert (Nov 25, 2014)

Jacob J. said:


> Ease of manufacture mostly and it lowers the cost of casting the jugs. It also makes the QC process easier, but then it provides yet another potential point for air leaks.



Do they make it easier to modify transfers, by providing better access?

Philbert


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 25, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Do they make it easier to modify transfers, by providing better access?
> 
> Philbert



Absolutely. That's one reason the fallers around here liked the big Solo saws back in the late 80's/early 90's.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 25, 2014)

I also think it makes it easier/cheaper for them to de-tune a saw to meet another price point, i.e. the 555 and 365. Instead of having to develop and stock another P&C, they simply slap on different covers.


----------



## rburg (Nov 25, 2014)

I think I am going to get Wiggs to port my AT saws.


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 25, 2014)

rburg said:


> I think I am going to get Wiggs to port my AT saws.


Hehehe. You're a mean man. 

Does that mean you don't plan to need them until 2016


----------



## Philbert (Nov 25, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I also think it makes it easier/cheaper for them to de-tune a saw to meet another price point, i.e. the 555 and 365. Instead of having to develop and stock another P&C, they simply slap on different covers.



Could a guy with a CNC start milling aftermarket transfer covers for these saws out of alloy stock? Would seem to fill a gap if Husky does not sell them separately.

Philbert


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 25, 2014)

IMHO, it's not worth the effort or expense. The gains are when they're combined with the crank stuffers.


----------



## cityboy172 (Nov 25, 2014)

This all makes me feel pretty good about buying a 562.


----------



## Eddy_t (Nov 25, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Do they make it easier to modify transfers, by providing better access?
> 
> Philbert


Yes, that is also partly the idea too. R&D in Sweden watch the arborist forums all over the world, and porting is gaining in popularity, especially with the videos and images on how to do the improvements. The saw only needs to meet emissions laws until purchase.
In fact, I would go as far as saying brad probably helped the 201t improvements! After all, if the manufacturer can save a few million in R&D by watching what basic mods a porter has used


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 25, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> IMHO, it's not worth the effort or expense. The gains are when they're combined with the crank stuffers.



But If u didn't try em with the small covers, who's to say they're not there to de-tune the 562?


----------



## wigglesworth (Nov 25, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Yes, that is also partly the idea too. R&D in Sweden watch the arborist forums all over the world, and porting is gaining in popularity, especially with the videos and images on how to do the improvements. The saw only needs to meet emissions laws until purchase.
> In fact, I would go as far as saying brad probably helped the 201t improvements! After all, if the manufacturer can save a few million in R&D by watching what basic mods a porter has used
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm still getting royalties from Stihl for my "Fuzzy Nipple Impulse Barb™.

Oddly enough, the checks are postmarked "Huskvarna, Sweden"....


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 25, 2014)

From what I saw in the videos, none of them would want anything to do with this "Beater" saw. It's amazing just how unreal some of these 2 series saws are- (242xp, 254xp, 262xp, 288xp) Ive had a ported 562 and ported 359s, and of all the videos Ive seen of ported 562s and 2260s.... I havent seen one that is more impressive than a fingerported 262xp.

This saw is made of "unobtainium" and priced as "priceless" for all you fellow "Saw Vultures"


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 25, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> From what I saw in the videos, none of them would want anything to do with this "Beater" saw. It's amazing just how unreal some of these 2 series saws are- (242xp, 254xp, 262xp, 288xp) Ive had a ported 562 and ported 359s, and of all the videos Ive seen of ported 562s and 2260s.... I havent seen one that is more impressive than a fingerported 262xp.
> 
> This saw is made of "unobtainium" and priced as "priceless" for all you fellow "Saw Vultures"


You tell it brother!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 25, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> From what I saw in the videos, none of them would want anything to do with this "Beater" saw. It's amazing just how unreal some of these 2 series saws are- (242xp, 254xp, 262xp, 288xp) Ive had a ported 562 and ported 359s, and of all the videos Ive seen of ported 562s and 2260s.... I havent seen one that is more impressive than a fingerported 262xp.
> 
> This saw is made of "unobtainium" and priced as "priceless" for all you fellow "Saw Vultures"



It's worthless without a catchy name like Triple Nickel though.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 25, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's worthless without a catchy name like Triple Nickel though.



Whatever.


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 25, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's worthless without a catchy name like Triple Nickel though.



You must'a never run my 262xp. . I'm changing the name of the model to "hot damn!" or "Oh S#it!"


----------



## Fire8 (Nov 25, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's worthless without a catchy name like Triple Nickel though.


You get me that finger ported 262 I'm naming mine (arms fill better)


----------



## bryanr2 (Nov 25, 2014)

Great talking with you yesterday Danny. You're gonna love that 262!


----------



## Fire8 (Nov 25, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Great talking with you yesterday Danny. You're gonna love that 262!


Same here,need to cut wood tomorrow but had a bad day at the fire sta. Yesterday my arm is killing me right now so I'm taking it easy today and tomorrow and eating pain pills


----------



## 7sleeper (Nov 25, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Could a guy with a CNC start milling aftermarket transfer covers for these saws out of alloy stock? Would seem to fill a gap if Husky does not sell them separately.
> 
> Philbert


I was thinking if it would be possible to make even larger ones and put them on the 560/562 line to see what would happen?

7


----------



## blsnelling (Nov 26, 2014)

Here's the 2260 ported. Don't advance the ignition on your 2260s or 562XPs. Also, I added a small notch in the butterfly directly inline with the transition passages. The hesitation remains. Looks like I'm going to have to pony up for a EL48.


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## CR888 (Nov 26, 2014)

l downloaded the ipl/manual for the 555 560 562 series saws as l have a 555. As they essentially are the same saw its makes sense for husky to do this. lt was interesting to note that they recommended a max bar length of 24" on the 555/560 and a max of 28" on the 562. You would 'think' they would all would have the same max bar length.


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## bryanr2 (Nov 26, 2014)

small vrs large mount? bar availability?
I wouldnt want 24 on a 60cc saw. I like 18-20 for ported ones. run 24s on the 288 and 2188. and a 20 on the 395. 24 on the 655


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## sachsmo (Nov 27, 2014)

24" on an ancient 2100,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,



PRICELESS!





Yup it has Carlton stencils, but it has Tsumura stamped on it too.












Thanks Baileys!


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## Jim Timber (Nov 27, 2014)

I run a 16" on my 50-60cc saws. If I need more bar, I probably want more cubes too.


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## sachsmo (Nov 27, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Some people just have to hate by nature. Must be a miserable life. Too bad he can't understand doing it just because it's something you enjoy. I've been doing build thread much longer than I've been a sponsor.




Careful there brad, I can hear your panties scrunching up from here.

I've been around and your benevolency has always been rewarded 10 fold.


You see I do it for the love of making something useless 'mobetter'.

You on the other hand do it for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$s.

Yep I can be a curmudgeon at times but when I need a good chuckle I just log on and poke you in the eye.


Sheeez you are so predictable!


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## one.man.band (Nov 28, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Yes, that is also partly the idea too. R&D in Sweden watch the arborist forums all over the world, and porting is gaining in popularity, especially with the videos and images on how to do the improvements. The saw only needs to meet emissions laws until purchase.
> In fact, I would go as far as saying brad probably helped the 201t improvements! After all, if the manufacturer can save a few million in R&D by watching what basic mods a porter has used
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



i used to drink whiskey.......


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## Mastermind (Nov 28, 2014)

Repped


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2014)

Here's one of those EL48 carbs from EBay for $69. Now to get the module programmed.


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## stihlaficionado (Dec 3, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Careful there brad, I can hear your panties scrunching up from here.
> 
> I've been around and your benevolency has always been rewarded 10 fold.
> 
> ...


Everyone is predictable


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## tlandrum (Dec 3, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Here's the 2260 ported. Don't advance the ignition on your 2260s or 562XPs. Also, I added a small notch in the butterfly directly inline with the transition passages. The hesitation remains. Looks like I'm going to have to pony up for a EL48.



ugh, well, ugh,,, is it faster than stock??


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2014)

tlandrum said:


> ugh, well, ugh,,, is it faster than stock??


You forgot to send me your programmer loaded with EL48 firmware


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## LowVolt (Dec 3, 2014)

Electronic controlled carb for $69? Doesn't seem too bad....


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## tlandrum (Dec 3, 2014)

after the day of carb swapping I had today,i lost faith in the el48. I ended up back with the el44 and el46 electronics to fix a saw.


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## gunrush128 (Dec 3, 2014)

Not what I wanted to hear... Did you happen to try the EL48 with the EL46 electronics?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tlandrum (Dec 3, 2014)

el48 and el46 have the same electronics. the el44 doesn't have the extra plug in for quick diagnostics


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## gunrush128 (Dec 3, 2014)

I was under the impression that the firmware was different between the two. 
I wonder if the different throttle plate makes a difference between the 46 and 48? I guess I could do some experimenting on my own. There are also other visible differences between the two carbs. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tlandrum (Dec 3, 2014)

firm ware is different but the components are the same.


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## boxygen (Dec 3, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Here's one of those EL48 carbs from EBay for $69. Now to get the module programmed.


Hutzl is getting pretty good huh?


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## woods works (Dec 3, 2014)

This service bulletin makes everything perfectly clear.....................................................like mud


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

Eddy_t said:


> Yet the 241m, 441 and 661 I've seen all had walbro.
> 
> If you want to disagree fine, but why is autotune patented but m-tronic only trade-marked?
> 
> ...


Thanks for this information, there is a lot in here and I have not read them all yet. There is some basic stuff that may impact on the 562 problem, relative to strato engines in particular. With strato engines there are two paths for air to enter the engine, one which carries not fuel at WOT (the strato ports), and the traditional path that carries a reduced airflow into the crankcase which carries all the fuel at WOT. However, the fuel and air flow are configured differently at idle vs. WOT. There are two approaches used:

*First*, the original one used on the Zenoah GZ4000 and many others, with two separate throttle plates. Here the main air flow path is through the strato air valve (just air, not fuel), and a much smaller carb is used which must pass all the fuel at a reduced air flow into the case. This allows effectively reduced transfer duration at idle when the strato air valve is closed. This seems to work fine on my GZ4000's and clones, and many other stratos from what I understand. 

However, I can see some potential pitfalls. With a large displacement engine with low case volume and good pumping efficiency, what happens at idle? The strato air valve is closed, and all the air flows through the carb with a venturi that is much smaller than a traditional carb for a non-strato saw of equivalent displacement. That mean it has a greater air velocity at idle, and a greater pressure drop at the fuel outlet port. 

This may be an issue with the 562 given how tweaked it is with crank stuffers, etc. They have clearly been drilling holes in the throttle plate, possibly to allow air to flow through without picking up fuel. This can work, but it also raises idle speed. I have had a saw that simply pulled too much air at idle for the size carb that was on it, and it activated the main (H)
circuit a little at idle. The only way it would idle was with the L almost closed. I put a bigger carb on it and that cured it. This is why I wondered how the 562 AT system controls idle speed - if the holes in the throttle plate raise the idle, then the system will try to drop it down. *IF* it does that by retarding the timing, then at the moment you crack the throttle it will be sitting there with major retarded spark timing. But I have not found out if this is the method for idle speed control used.

The *Second*, newer approach uses a carb with a single throttle plate, and some vanes placed so that the throttle and choke plates separate the flow through the carb into air-only and fuel/air paths at WOT, the first feeding the strato ports and the second going to the case (normal carbs pretty much do this too, but both paths are joined at the outlet anyway). However, at idle the two paths are joined so there is no strato effect, but more importantly the idle fuel is intentionally introduced into the air path of the carb, and the effective venturi area is much bigger than the original strato small carb approach. That means the idle air velocity through the carb is lower and the pressure drop smaller - it's a bigger carb. 

With this approach you cannot have different port timing for idle and WOT.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

From what I've seen you are on the right track. 

Just adding to what you posted......

"They have clearly been drilling holes in the throttle plate".....

And notches. The extra air that has been introduced must raise idle speed.......there ain't no way around that. To compensate, I believe that the AT system adds more fuel. That added fuel pools behind the throttle plate. Crack the throttle.......that fuel dumps into the case and causes a bog. 

They can add all the bandaids they want.......but this issue is common, and tough to fix.


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## Termite (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> From what I've seen you are on the right track.
> 
> Just adding to what you posted......
> 
> ...



So you are saying it is a bog from being too rich,at the moment the throttle is opened. Which explains why when my saw is not fully up to temperature, (a little cool), there is no bog.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

Si.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> To compensate, I believe that the AT system adds more fuel


But how does it do that at idle? I thought the mixture control was effectively the H screw. Controlling idle speed may not mean controlling idle mixture. This is what I've been trying to figure out - having never seen one is a bit of an impediment!


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I believe it controls both hi and low speed....


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)




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## tlandrum (Dec 4, 2014)

does that make a 2260 faster than stock


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> View attachment 384080


Yeah, I just can't tell what that is connected to or how it operates. I'd have to see one, which is unlikely, or a good diagram.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

This appears to be the relevant patent description: http://www.google.com/patents/US20100011597

Really tough to read, especially since I don't have time! It appears that they can adjust both mixtures - effectively they have a shut off valve in front of the entire jet system. Therefore they can shut off the fuel completely or vary the on time to "throttle" the mixture, regardless of if it is the idle or main circuit.


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 4, 2014)

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20100011597A1/US20100011597A1-20100121-D00007.png
eF'ing lovely. 
We've just diagrammed the thought process of any 70% competent mechanic
and patented it.
I may still have a Echo owners manual from mid 1970's somewhere around here that has roughly the same troubleshooting flowchart thing in it.
They just expected you to hold the screwdriver and listen for yourself 
instead of them having an ECU do it. 

When a CD of a baseline software reset and a USB cord is tossed into the box with each new saw, I'll somewhat cut down on my kicking and screaming about being dragged into the modern world.
Alas, Somehow I suspect what we're more likely to see is checking of the already serialized parts, tied to a specific saw with dealer/retailer activation at point of sale for new units.
you guys that grumble about not liking some aspect of your buying experience now
should love it when you have to buy an anti-virus ware add on to scan your saw
because there's become a real chance of it having one after the online activation process.
edit: Or the newest firmware update.

or the glib
"How are you today did you find everything you needed at whistlebritches saw emporium?"
(checkout and ringup proceeds)
"...and with that factory approved fuel mix**
(** fine print dept: extended warranty does not cover software upgrades or loaner saw)
" a spare chain and file-o-wonderguide , your total is #### would you like 
to buy a Geek Squad anti-virus protection plan?, 
" If you buy it at the time of saw purchase today, your coverage will also include up to two, in store only, firmware updates per year for 3 years"

or else a huge, nonnegotiable, per factory to dealer agreement, financial penalty is included in the purchase price ,should you decline the activation.

You poor guys have NO idea how horribly and irreverently verbose I can be, when I'm not having to hunt-n-peck into a keyboard.

second thought edit: Don't think that the people who torch logging equipment
won't look at dropping a virus into web connected equipment.
Storage capacity of the ECU is probably the main thing that will slow them down.
But then the same mentality that attacked this site might not object to 
simply just wiping or corrupting your firmware.


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## drumbum (Dec 4, 2014)

No zakley watcha meen


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

What is the other saw they make with crank stuffers and AT - the 550? How big is the venturi in the carb for that saw compared to the 562?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I've never measured either of them.


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## Termite (Dec 4, 2014)

[QUOTE="LegDeLimber, post: 5070195, member: 

You poor guys have NO idea how horribly and irreverently verbose I can be, when I'm not having to hunt-n-peck into a keyboard.[/QUOTE]

I had to look verbose up. Good word.


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## one.man.band (Dec 4, 2014)

Leg........excellent use of the alphabet!


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've never measured either of them.


It just seems like AT works fine on other saws - even other saws all tricked out with stuffers and stuff (?). They have control over mixture, so how did they bollocks this one up so bad? Given the swiss cheese throttle plate it seems like something basic. 

I've been curious how they worked and the patents show that fairly well. But someone else got paid to troubleshoot/develop this system, and I don't really have the information needed to help much. Besides which I'm never going to pony up for a saw in this class anyway, so I think I will stop worrying about it - I've already got plenty of stuff to fix and troubleshoot!


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## one.man.band (Dec 4, 2014)

swiss cheese does more than just raise idle speed my friend.


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> From what I've seen you are on the right track.
> 
> Just adding to what you posted......
> 
> ...



Yes you are correct sir somewhat, the added air does raise the idle speed however the AT system has been restricted to lessen the fuel flow at X rpm, and maintain a lower rpm via the fuel valve, within the firmware revisions.

Likewise the same experience they had on Gen1 with the 576. Hence the added idle screw on the latter 576's, raising the idle rpm by a couple hundred rpm, eliminating the puddling effect.

My take on it, the TPS is not accurate even after being reset. 

This is not a revelation.

The initial updates for the 44 were for idling stability.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

Good input Hamish. 

I've begun shimming the TPS magnets out toward the pickup a little. It seems to help......


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Good input Hamish.
> 
> I've begun shimming the TPS magnets out toward the pickup a little. It seems to help......


Its actually easier to use some tag wire and in effect shorten the throttle cable, and move the TPS magnets.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> View attachment 384080



Just drill and tap and make some needles. 

Problem solved....


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

hamish said:


> Its actually easier to use some tag wire and in effect shorten the throttle cable, and move the TPS magnets.



The hold it at a higher idle?


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The hold it at a higher idle?


Yes. Single crossover, no tie in the wire, raises the idle rpm by almost 200. Be sure the wire crossover is between the plastic on the throttle cam, so your effect is the same throughout the throttle range (don't have the cross over against the cam portion).


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I like that idea.


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

If you hook up to a new saw and set the TPS at 100% within 5 hours the TPS is usually below 94%. Resetting it again and running it the variation is lesser, but it is there. If you look at the saws with the negative transition, be it the 550,555 or 562 the TPS values are low. Initial cable stretch? Don't know, theres not enough data, but doing an update which should, on the part of the person doing an update include function tests, clears things up in most cases.
The joys of the AT games, a lot of little variable have a profound effect.

I have a shop 562, a customers that I finally said enough is enough out of warranty and gave him a new unit with an EL46 that's working like a charm. His previous 562, with the EL44, well lets get started, crankcase gasket, muffler, av springs, clutch, carb, crank bearing. Pretty much everything that could fail did before 59 hours, which is a lot of run time in reality. Its all back together and I will be going to cut wood with it tomorrow, along with its newer EL46 carb, runs like a champ.

The EL44 became the EL46 for no tech wanted to wrestle with the 44' s service hook up. Initial 46's are no different that the 44's, just that there are a lot more 46's out in users hands.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

one.man.band said:


> swiss cheese does more than just raise idle speed my friend.


Yes, those notches can be used to direct flow toward or away from fuel outlet ports. However, given how many there are and where they are located it would appear they are intended to direct flow away from fuel ports, and therefore to prevent picking up more fuel.


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I like that idea.



Awful shame you didn't pick up on it almost a year ago, when I first brought it up.

When we want to find the know it all about AT were gonna have to go on a road trip to Europe, then spend some time in China, then just for the hell of it a week in Dublin!


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I must have had you on ignore.


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

To each there own.

You can do your usual when I post something on the 562 threads, I don't mind, my ignore button is a cord in the wall.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I've enjoyed this conversation Hamish. 

I appreciate your help.


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## dbittle (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> From what I've seen you are on the right track.
> 
> Just adding to what you posted......
> 
> ...





hamish said:


> To each there own.
> 
> You can do your usual when I post something on the 562 threads, I don't mind, my ignore button is a cord in the wall.



So the idle bog, or negative transition, is related to throttle position sensor cable tension or slack? Is there a threshold in there somewhere where the problem appears or disappears?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I've been able to fix it by replacing the 46 with a 44. I use the 46 module on the 44.


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## dbittle (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've been able to fix it by replacing the 46 with a 44. I use the 46 module on the 44.


Right. That's where I'm confused. If Hamish is right that the 46 and 44 are essentially the same carburetor, then he has noticed a connection between the TPS percentage number and the appearance of the bog. That is interesting if it holds up under more testing or your experience with these things. It would make sense that a throttle position mismatch between the actual throttle position and where the sensor thinks it is could have a bad effect. So I thought I would ask for clarification on just what the TPS at 100% or 94% really means.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2014)

I noticed that the TSP bounced around a little too much when testing these carbs with the diagnostic setup. To get a cleaner reading between the magnets and the pickup, I shimmed the magnets (that are on the throttle shaft) out closer to the pickup sensor. 

That helps these things a bunch.


----------



## dbittle (Dec 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I noticed that the TSP bounced around a little too much when testing these carbs with the diagnostic setup. To get a cleaner reading between the magnets and the pickup, I shimmed the magnets (that are on the throttle shaft) out closer to the pickup sensor.
> 
> That helps these things a bunch.


Do you think there are several things all going on at once? There was progress made by notching the throttle plates, and it seems there is progress being made by working with the TPS signal. I had meant to ask you about the fuel puddling idea as well, which may also be involved. I wanted to see if you would expand on it. Would the puddle go away if the saw was oriented properly, or drip out the carb throat where it could be seen if the saw was idled on its side. That seems like the type of idea you could test to see if it held up under scrutiny.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2014)

I bolted on my new EL48 tonight, using the module that was on the EL46. I knew it was a different saw as soon as I started it. There might be the slightest hint of a hesitation after it's hot, but you almost have to imagine it to notice it. It made a big difference. I'm going to send the module out to be programmed and see how that does. I'm feeling good about this


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## dbittle (Dec 4, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I bolted on my new EL48 tonight, using the module that was on the EL46. I knew it was a different saw as soon as I started it. There might be the slightest hint of a hesitation after it's hot, but you almost have to imagine it to notice it. It made a big difference. I'm going to send the module out to be programmed and see how that does. I'm feeling good about this


And on that note, good night to all. For not having one of these saws, I've really enjoyed following the detective story of trying to get them to run right....


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## hamish (Dec 4, 2014)

dbittle said:


> . So I thought I would ask for clarification on just what the TPS at 100% or 94% really means.


At WOT the TPS should read 100% (aka full throttle). From an idle standpoint the butterfly would be at the idle position whereas the fuel valve as mapped is not.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 5, 2014)

hamish said:


> At WOT the TPS should read 100% (aka full throttle). From an idle standpoint the butterfly would be at the idle position whereas the fuel valve as mapped is not.


Now that my little mind can comprehended. It makes sense. 

I'm no fanboy of any one brand, but I sure like my Husqvarna's. With that said this issue should have been rectified within weeks, but unfortunately it seems to be an ongoing problem. Not good!

I still cringe every time I see made in China.


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## gaspipe (Dec 5, 2014)

I just wish to extend my sincerest thanks to the EPA for saving us from the plight of chainsaw pollution. Please carry on.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 5, 2014)

gaspipe said:


> I just wish to extend my sincerest thanks to the EPA for saving us from the plight of chainsaw pollution. Please carry on.


Maybe so. However if you want to stay in business you must work within the constraints, or go out of business. The blame falls on the manufacturer IMHO.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

gaspipe said:


> I just wish to extend my sincerest thanks to the EPA for saving us from the plight of chainsaw pollution. Please carry on.


Now ask yourself why the US market is not flooded with Chinese saws like in OZ?



hamish said:


> At WOT the TPS should read 100% (aka full throttle). From an idle standpoint the butterfly would be at the idle position whereas the fuel valve as mapped is not.


That's interesting - but nothing says the software cannot interpret a reading of 94% as full throttle. It's not a big deal to compensate for hardware tolerance in software this way, in fact it's pretty common. TPS in cars are pretty sloppy too, but the system corrects for that.

Anyway, just pointing out that the diagnostics might just be giving a raw value from the sensor, it may not indicate a problem. However, if it makes it work better that's a more significant indicator. If it doesn't see the throttle move it won't respond. That would be kinda pathetic if it's what's wrong.


----------



## one.man.band (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> Yes, those notches can be used to direct flow toward or away from fuel outlet ports. However, given how many there are and where they are located it would appear they are intended to direct flow away from fuel ports, and therefore to prevent picking up more fuel.



prevent? ... when air velocity increases.... quicker transition over to main ...helps pick up fuel from main sooner


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## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

one.man.band said:


> prevent? ... when air velocity increases.... quicker transition over to main ...helps pick up fuel from main sooner


The air velocity that matters is that passing the fuel outlet ports. When the throttle plate is closed those notches are far away from the main venturi and outlet, and the carb should be designed such that it does not create enough pressure drop to pull fuel from the main circuit. 

The air passing around the edge of the throttle plate forms a venturi, with the idle outlets located there. Putting notches in it shifts the air flow around, and can be used to redirect air towards or away from outlets (including the idle transfer outlets at part throttle). Given how these are located it would appear they are placed to avoid the fuel ports. But regardless it should not activate the main.


----------



## dbittle (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> The air velocity that matters is that passing the fuel outlet ports. When the throttle plate is closed those notches are far away from the main venturi and outlet, and the carb should be designed such that it does not create enough pressure drop to pull fuel from the main circuit.
> 
> The air passing around the edge of the throttle plate forms a venturi, with the idle outlets located there. Putting notches in it shifts the air flow around, and can be used to redirect air towards or away from outlets (including the idle transfer outlets at part throttle). Given how these are located it would appear they are placed to avoid the fuel ports. But regardless it should not activate the main.


Ok, I keep coming back to Mastermind's idea that fuel puddling behind the throttle valve is causing a rich bog condition when the throttle is opened. If I understand the patent literature description correctly, the system can restrict the flow of fuel through the system, but it cannot add more fuel than the carburetor would put in if the autotune system was not there. In other words, they would set up the carburetor to be too rich and use the electronic controls to lean it out. That would be true at idle, transition and WOT, right? If that is the case, what would be the result if we introduced a deliberate air leak into a saw that is showing the bog? Would the bog get worse or get better? What I'm trying to drive towards is an absolute conclusive certainty of whether the transition bog is a lean condition bog or a rich condition bog. With the explanation of the TPS system, I'm not sure how it is participating.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

dbittle said:


> Ok, I keep coming back to Mastermind's idea that fuel puddling behind the throttle valve is causing a rich bog condition when the throttle is opened. If I understand the patent literature description correctly, the system can restrict the flow of fuel through the system, but it cannot add more fuel than the carburetor would put in if the autotune system was not there. In other words, they would set up the carburetor to be too rich and use the electronic controls to lean it out. That would be true at idle, transition and WOT, right? If that is the case, what would be the result if we introduced a deliberate air leak into a saw that is showing the bog? Would the bog get worse or get better? What I'm trying to drive towards is an absolute conclusive certainty of whether the transition bog is a lean condition bog or a rich condition bog. With the explanation of the TPS system, I'm not sure how it is participating.


I don't have enough information. The discussion upthread between Hamish and Mastermind about the TPS sensor/linkage slop seemed like a reasonable explanation.


----------



## dbittle (Dec 5, 2014)

I agree with that. Hamish and MM both arrived at that conclusion. I'm not smart enough to understand how it is playing, but it is clear that it is. I guess my realization of the day was that to make a system run like AT runs, you have to make the baseline carb settings too rich, because the controls only can make it leaner. I do think it is important to nail down whether the system has a rich spike or a lean spike when the throttle is snapped open.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm reading along....


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

Again, lacking first hand experience and parts to play with I really don't know much. It is not closed loop under acceleration, but I don't know things like if it has an accelerator pump. Still, it clearly must have a different routine for acceleration, and if the throttle plate opens and the system doesn't see it it's not going to respond properly.


----------



## dbittle (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> Again, lacking first hand experience and parts to play with I really don't know much. It is not closed loop under acceleration, but I don't know things like if it has an accelerator pump. Still, it clearly must have a different routine for acceleration, and if the throttle plate opens and the system doesn't see it it's not going to respond properly.


That may be how the TPS issues play into it, right there. 

I want to pull on the thread a little more though. I don't have one of these saws either, so I'm just asking questions and trying to put the pieces together in my mind. My read of the patent references is that the electronics are always leaning out the mixture by restricting the flow of gasoline into the carburetor. It can't force gasoline into the carburetor, it is not an injector. The carburetor is set rich enough to cover substantial air leaks - we know that already. There is some kind of fuel map too, or target mixture map, or something like that, because without the map there is no need for a TPS. Tightening the TPS connection as suggested by Hamish may be a big step forward, along with improving the TPS signal quality as MM has been doing. I have to go put kids to bed, so good night all.


----------



## one.man.band (Dec 6, 2014)

dbittle said:


> I agree with that. Hamish and MM both arrived at that conclusion. I'm not smart enough to understand how it is playing, but it is clear that it is. I guess my realization of the day was that to make a system run like AT runs, you have to make the baseline carb settings too rich, because the controls only can make it leaner. I do think it is important to nail down whether the system has a rich spike or a lean spike when the throttle is snapped open.



TK and mweba worked out a mechanical remedy for rich version of the bog/idle issue.
Brad's mechanical remedy was for the lean out issue. Terry Syd as well.
Mastermind found a electro/mech rich condition fix to adjust TPS.
Hamish explained how the TPS system interacts w/fuel curve.
tlandrum described electronic changes/similarities between these different versions of carbs.

good stuff guys.. ty.

cannot remember who stated that there were 10 or so updates to software?
don't know what the updates were, but i suspect that the updates
were changes to the way the TPS reading interacts with the fuel curve.

rich or lean?
your saw may have a chance of either, probably... depending on what update
version # of the software fuel curve your saw has, is my guess. and just a wild guess at that.
maybe some folks could shed some light on this.

lots of good information gets lost forever quickly on this site because of the way it goes
to page 6 of the chainsaw forum, buried under countless new posts. another, is the way posts are thrown 
into a giant fish barrel. not going to do the legwork to find where, and what threads the good info above was posted,
but great info if you can find it.


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## one.man.band (Dec 6, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> The air velocity that matters is that passing the fuel outlet ports. When the throttle plate is closed those notches are far away from the main venturi and outlet, and the carb should be designed such that it does not create enough pressure drop to pull fuel from the main circuit.
> 
> The air passing around the edge of the throttle plate forms a venturi, with the idle outlets located there. Putting notches in it shifts the air flow around, and can be used to redirect air towards or away from outlets (including the idle transfer outlets at part throttle). Given how these are located it would appear they are placed to avoid the fuel ports. But regardless it should not activate the main.



agree that it's based on the where the location of the holes in the butterfly are located. 

maybe we can agree on this: 
if the hole(s), notches or whatever is/are located adjacent to the idle progession holes, more fuel is drawn from the idle circuit, but only when the butterfly is ator near idle position. if holes are located away from the idle circuit, opposite is true.

now the air, lots of vacuum through the idle circuit at idle, as the throttle plate opens, air velocity increases, at some point there is enough to get the main flowing. nothing new there. but when when the throttle is opened quickly from idle to wfo, there is a lag in pressure differential. ie. motor is at too low of an rpm to take advantage of wfo airflow. bog or hesitation. due to lean out or rich condition.

notches: holes located anywhere away from the progression holes promote air velocity. there is initially greater air velocity in the carb throat with the additional holes, at idle and part throttle. compare to the case where no additional holes were added. the additional holes help to increase the air velocity which in turn, flow the main sooner, thus changing the fuel curve mechanically. 

at least that is my take on it. did many hours of testing on an non-electro carb over a few days using this idea many months ago. not going to rehash my posts from another forum, here too.


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2014)

My 2260 was most definitely lean when coming down to idle from WOT, just like a lean L does. The hesitation from idle, I can't say for sure, but would assume it's a lean condition as well. The EL48 carb did wonders for it.


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## gunrush128 (Dec 6, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> My 2260 was most definitely lean when coming down to idle from WOT, just like a lean L does. The hesitation from idle, I can't say for sure, but would assume it's a lean condition as well. The EL48 carb did wonders for it.




Did you ever find someone to upload the firmware for you, or did you just swap the electronics from the EL46? I called 2 dealers yesterday... The closest one doesn't have the programmer, and the other one(an hour away) gave me a big run-round. He says he needs the serial number from the saw, and part numbers from the flywheel and coil. He says they all need to be matched specifically to the carb.... Oh, and he says he'll charge me $80/hr to upload the firmware with a minimum charge of 1/2 hour, but thinks it'll take him longer than that. [emoji35]


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## tlandrum (Dec 6, 2014)

he needs the model and serial number from the saw, part number on the coil and the carb in hand to upload the info to the carb. ive done it in 5 minutes and its took as long as an hr to get it done. sometimes the job is really easy, sometimes not so much ,when the reader wont pick up the carb like it should or the download fails over and over.it can get aggravating to say the least.


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## gunrush128 (Dec 6, 2014)

I guess that makes sense, but paying $80 to plug it in seems crazy to me. Honestly, the hesitation on my saw is very minimal since I went through the reset process again (WOT in a log for 5 min). Sometimes it's not even there. I guess I must have OCD, I just like it to be perfect all the time. This saw is an animal with a sharp chain and 20" bar. I just don't like the fact that these little problems are out of my control. I miss my H-L screws!


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## DeckSetter (Dec 6, 2014)

Has anyone adapted a conventional carb to one of these? I'd be curious to see how a conventional well tuned carb ran compared to an auto tune saw.


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## dbittle (Dec 6, 2014)

one.man.band said:


> TK and mweba worked out a mechanical remedy for rich version of the bog/idle issue.
> Brad's mechanical remedy was for the lean out issue. Terry Syd as well.
> Mastermind found a electro/mech rich condition fix to adjust TPS.
> Hamish explained how the TPS system interacts w/fuel curve.
> ...




I think that post sums it up pretty well. There have been several iterations of the carburetor hardware and software, which means that different version combinations have different hardware and software bugs that pop up during operation. That has probably contributed to the confusion about what fixes work and what the manifestations of the problems are. A fix that works on a combination with a lean bog doesn't work on one with a rich bog..... I think the TPS information was new though, and seems to be perhaps the dominant issue with the current (or fairly recent) saws.


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## SierraMtns (Jun 19, 2017)

Brad,

Thanks for taking us a long your journey on building the 555. I had fun reading all 35 pages today at work. 

But now I am so confused on what mods if any to do on my long bar 555...

I did perform a complete gut job on the muffler. It lowered the exhaust temps down to 210-214*F and seemed to wake her up. 

Nick


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