# Timber Fallers, Do You Understand This?



## slowp (Jun 27, 2013)

This is some dude on another forum telling folks how to buck out blowdown. I'm not sure I understand what he's saying. Your thoughts? The blue is a poster warning about the "expert". This is a thread about volunteer groups clearing out trails and certification was mentioned. 

Token Civilian wrote: 


For every ones sake, please, Please, PLEASE DO NOT follow Wastrals dangerously misguided words on cutting logs, vine maple, slide alder, etc that is under tension. There is NOT "Lots of warning", especially when cutting them the wrong way. When they go, they can go in the blink of an eye with nary a hint and with a tremendous amount of force, no matter if you're using axe or saw. 



Can tell you haven't cut any of them(logs that is). Plenty of warning. It is all about positioning yourself to be out of the way when it does go. You should expect EVERY LOG YOU CUT to swing! Why you always position yourself on the opposite side of any potential swing. Whoever taught you, clearly is an idiot or you forgot this FIRST step in cutting. Why tons of warning? (Since it would appear you have never cut any and somehow are waving a certificate around as if you you know. Scary, but all too true in the certificate minded community.) 

Your saw, be it a handsaw or chainsaw will lug(pinch) down as it is being pinched as you will be on the compression side unless you are a blithering idiot standing on the tension side. Especially with a handsaw or cross cut saw. Either you have the experience to know and pull saw blade out throwing in a wedge or two and keep pounding them in as you cut, or you know you have enough power in the chainsaws case to just keep on cutting keeping yourself out of the way. Either way, the wedge keeps it from SPRINGING if you are in any way worried about it. Thus all my previous comments about wedges and if you are so ignorant as to not know when/how to use them then you shouldn't be cutting! 

Tensioned or compressed logs never go in a blink. Only an ignorant with no real world experience would say so. How it is cutting tells you everything you need to know. Every downed tree/log is like this, only depends how much. 

Do try to read everything I wrote before replying instead of only what you choose to read. 

PS. Throw that certificate in the trash. It would appear they A) never taught you, or B) You didn't learn.


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## Spotted Owl (Jun 27, 2013)

Wow. The only thing good there is the disclaimer warning. Some folks you can teach and or help, and some you can't, they won't allow it. The later usually weed them selves out of the pool soon enough. Problem is they also usually have collateral damage along the way. 

The only thing I understand about this is the guy posting it up is a blithering idiot, and sounds like he is lucky to get as far in his activities as he has.

If you wind up on a volunteer job with this guy avoid him like the plague. Or better yet cancel so you don't have to be around his aftermath.

Things go in a hurry. There can be more than one binding force going on at the same time. Anyone with time on the saw has seen thing go with out warning. From just a crack or pop to a full on explosion, no warning at all. There is no way to know how much force is in play in a bind, or how things are going to act and react to what is being done. You can have experienced and or educated guess at best.

Other than that I don't know what to say about this.

What does your experience tell you about him? 



Owl


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 27, 2013)

he either does not know how to talk or.......blithering idiot


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## paccity (Jun 27, 2013)

or both.


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## Gologit (Jun 27, 2013)

slowp said:


> This is some dude on another forum telling folks how to buck out blowdown. I'm not sure I understand what he's saying. Your thoughts? The blue is a poster warning about the "expert". This is a thread about volunteer groups clearing out trails and certification was mentioned.
> 
> Token Civilian wrote:
> 
> ...




The guy has way more mouth and bad ideas than he has experience. Anybody who has cut has seen things pop with little or no warning. Little stuff, big stuff, they'll all let loose on you sometimes. 
I'd stay away from him and I'd try to see that he didn't influence others and get them hurt .

I wouldn't work with him and I wouldn't have him working for me.


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## bustedup (Jun 27, 2013)

Been in the sun to long/partakes of modern chemistry or ......is nuts


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## slowp (Jun 27, 2013)

I did say that he would go on my list of folks to never work with. Scary. I don't think he does any work with volunteers, luckily. 

He's a good example of why there is a certification and training process for volunteers.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 27, 2013)

Anybody who is that certain about a situation full of inherent uncertainty is probably wrong. I was moving small blowdown with a tractor once. The #### hit the fan so fast I couldn't believe it. Smashed the hood, but could have easily been me. Anybody who has shot a recurve bow has respect for the amount of power which can be stored in even small wood


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## slowp (Jun 27, 2013)

Yup. I posted a couple of videos I took a few years ago when a microburst caused a blocked road for about a mile. I showed up first and started in on it, a couple of loggers showed up, but they were suffering from COPD and a concussion, finally, a guy I'd worked with before showed up and even though he was recovering from a near death (non-logging) accident, he started cutting away and I followed chunking stuff up and throwing it off the road. The cat was on the other side, of course, and would not start. 

Anyway, the video shows how blowdown can act, and the "expert" on the other forum says it shows "how any Joe" can easily cut blowdown. Sigh....hope he doesn't do much.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 27, 2013)

I hate blow downs... the only thing to be certain of is whether or not you have sharp corks and a good escape path. 

Side, top, bottom bind sometimes all in one tree... stumps that may or may not fall an ya... possible cracks the entire length of the tree... massive breakage, generally a tangled ####ing mess, and your up 10-15' in the air at times... ick...

Apparently this Duder has never had a tree chair on him, or for that matter cut more than a few fire wood rounds for the campfire...

Granted I've never taken any certification crud... (although I should just for the business end of things) but for johny and jane newbie they are a wonderful thing to get people in the woods safely.


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## roberte (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> Yup. I posted a couple of videos I took a few years ago when a microburst caused a blocked road for about a mile. I showed up first and started in on it, a couple of loggers showed up, but they were suffering from COPD and a concussion, finally, a guy I'd worked with before showed up and even though he was recovering from a near death (non-logging) accident, he started cutting away and I followed chunking stuff up and throwing it off the road. The cat was on the other side, of course, and would not start.
> 
> Anyway, the video shows how blowdown can act, and the "expert" on the other forum says it shows "how any Joe" can easily cut blowdown. Sigh....hope he doesn't do much.



Sure any joe can cut blowdown, but not any joe can bring it down in the right order.

I might want to take a walk before i start hacking


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## dooby (Jun 28, 2013)

A blown down tree is good for hiding things when the trunk is bucked off the root wad. But that thing has to be in the hole first! imo.:msp_sneaky:


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## northmanlogging (Jun 28, 2013)

Ah geo caching at its finest...


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## 2dogs (Jun 28, 2013)

I have a real dumb look on my face in this pic. I was bucking this blow down and didn't read the side bind. The trunk moved about 5' in the blink of an eye. I only saw the bottom bind which was not much of a factor. Truth be told I was sort of in shock even though the trunk just pushed me because of where I was standing. It would have broken my leg if I was a foot father forward. Side bind kinda freaks me out now.


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## derwoodii (Jun 28, 2013)

do your best to have somewhere to go even if you don't see it going wrong I've had all sorts of surprises buckin up storm work just been lucky so far the stored wood energy is amazing 

[video=youtube;bRwkL7Nd9ys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRwkL7Nd9ys[/video]


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## Dave Boyt (Jun 28, 2013)

After the 2011 Joplin, MO tornado, a lot of folks bought chain saws to help out. Their hearts were in the right place, but they weren't. One even showed up with a Poulan saw, wearing flip-flops and shorts. Another decided to help me by cutting further up the same tree I was working on. I didn't know he was there until he cut a branch that caused the tree to roll. Those of us wearing boots, chaps & helmets worked together and let the others work it out on their own. Those root balls can stand back up in a hurry!


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## slowp (Jun 28, 2013)

Yes, I mentioned some near misses I've had and was told that I obviously should not be cutting by the "expert". The most memorable one was misjudging where the compression was and getting the Twinkle saw knocked over my head and I landed on my butt. I had to sit a bit until the fear calmed down.
If I was a smoker, it would have been time to have a couple. 

I'll travel over and see if any more has been posted.


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## Gologit (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> Yes, I mentioned some near misses I've had and was told that I obviously should not be cutting by the "expert". The most memorable one was misjudging where the compression was and getting the Twinkle saw knocked over my head and I landed on my butt. I had to sit a bit until the fear calmed down.
> If I was a smoker, it would have been time to have a couple.
> 
> I'll travel over and see if any more has been posted.



Can you post a link to that site? Maybe some of us could just amble on over there and help out a little.


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## slowp (Jun 28, 2013)

NWHikers.net - View topic - WTA & PCTA# Work Parties

Be advised, you won't get kicked off but the site is full of easily offended, folks who live in the Seattle area.
Many feel the forests should be untouched, except by roads or trails. 

Now, they've cheered as logging was shut down in the woods, but now are upset because the roads are not maintained and are being closed. 

It's a difficult forum for me to deal with. I am labeled a brown conservative there. I wish I had the wit of Randymac.

Wastral enters the picture on the second page, I think.


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## paccity (Jun 28, 2013)

will be interesting to see how the bob and randy show will stir them up. but most of them won't be swayed with the blinders they are wearing.


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## paccity (Jun 28, 2013)

interesting handle patty.:smile2:


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## roberte (Jun 28, 2013)

paccity said:


> will be interesting to see how the bob and randy show will stir them up. but most of them won't be swayed with the blinders they are wearing.



Blinders , koolaid.....


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## Gologit (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> NWHikers.net - View topic - WTA & PCTA# Work Parties
> 
> Be advised, you won't get kicked off but the site is full of easily offended, folks who live in the Seattle area.
> Many feel the forests should be untouched, except by roads or trails.
> ...



Patty...post that video of me and the bear trap at Napa on NWH and let's see what kind of comments Wastral has. Might be interesting

I'm trying to register over there but I have to look up what the highest peak in Warshington is.:msp_confused:


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## slowp (Jun 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Patty...post that video of me and the bear trap at Napa on NWH and let's see what kind of comments Wastral has. Might be interesting
> 
> I'm trying to register over there but I have to look up what the highest peak in Warshington is.:msp_confused:




Well, it isn't Shasta.:msp_smile: Mt Rainier will get you in.


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## Gologit (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> Well, it isn't Shasta.:msp_smile: Mt Rainier will get you in.



Not Shasta? Dammit. Lassen didn't work either. Thanks for the tip. My first post is already up.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Not Shasta? Dammit. Lassen didn't work either. Thanks for the tip. My first post is already up.



Those guys are sincere, but man are they boring. We need to send the brain trust of Thomas1, DSS and Jon2112 to help them lighten up a little. While we're at it, we could loan them Sledrat, Zombiechopper, and Moody. That would make them spew their mochafrappachino's all over their birkenstocks


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> NWHikers.net - View topic - WTA & PCTA# Work Parties
> 
> Be advised, you won't get kicked off but the site is full of easily offended, folks who live in the Seattle area.
> Many feel the forests should be untouched, except by roads or trails.
> ...



slowp, what is a brown conservative? don't let them nuts get ya down.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm thinking I would get banned from that site rather quickly...

Its great that there are people that want to take care of the trails though... Been a long time since I was in the woods just to go hiking... many of the trails I remember where starting to look abandoned... last I knew most where unreachable until they finally opened up some of the MT loop and sauk suiatle roads... the trails can sometimes be hard to find now


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## slowp (Jun 28, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> slowp, what is a brown conservative? don't let them nuts get ya down.



They think I am against a nice environment, which I am not, because I live here. But most think that all logging is detrimental and a form of extraction--like mining. That's the brown part--they consider themselves to be green, yet drive a lot of miles using gas, to go for a walk. Go figure. The conservative part is self explanatory, cept on this forum, I'm considered to be an evil left winger--"_west coast woman_".:msp_scared: Hmmm, perhaps that would be good to have above the avatar. I am a _West Coast Woman!_
There seems to be no middle ground anywhere...enough of politics.


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## slowp (Jun 28, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm thinking I would get banned from that site rather quickly...
> 
> Its great that there are people that want to take care of the trails though... Been a long time since I was in the woods just to go hiking... many of the trails I remember where starting to look abandoned... last I knew most where unreachable until they finally opened up some of the MT loop and sauk suiatle roads... the trails can sometimes be hard to find now



I don't think you would. While the posters would probably be asking for you to be banned, you have to be pretty bad to get banned. I think the only one that I know who got banned was in trouble for posting that a moderator was having marriage problems. Give it a go and see. They'd probably really like having somebody who is close to the Suiattle area. Unlike me, you live in their playground.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> They think I am against a nice environment, which I am not, because I live here. But most think that all logging is detrimental and a form of extraction--like mining. That's the brown part--they consider themselves to be green, yet drive a lot of miles using gas, to go for a walk. Go figure. The conservative part is self explanatory, cept on this forum, I'm considered to be an evil left winger--"_west coast woman_".:msp_scared: Hmmm, perhaps that would be good to have above the avatar. I am a _West Coast Woman!_
> There seems to be no middle ground anywhere...enough of politics.



why can't they understand that wood is THE renewable resource. people that want to live "green" sure don't know much.


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## roberte (Jun 28, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> why can't they understand that wood is THE renewable resource. people that want to live "green" sure don't know much.



But they think they do.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> I don't think you would. While the posters would probably be asking for you to be banned, you have to be pretty bad to get banned. I think the only one that I know who got banned was in trouble for posting that a moderator was having marriage problems. Give it a go and see. They'd probably really like having somebody who is close to the Suiattle area. Unlike me, you live in their playground.



I think that is part of what bugs me about most of em... they generally live in Bothel Seattle, or Bellevue... all drive up on the weekends and break out there $400. "hiking pants" and rei hiking boots... Then have the gall to look down on me and mine in our jeans and work boots, meanwhile at one time me and mine where the ones keeping the trails open... just bothers me... So much traffic out here on the weekends and its all day tripping hikers...

Not like it used to be 10-15 years ago when I would hike a different trail every other day all summer and never run into more then 3 people a week. I'll stop ranting no good at hiking since I got hurt anyway... at least someone is playing in the woods still.


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## dooby (Jun 28, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Anybody who is that certain about a situation full of inherent uncertainty is probably wrong. I was moving small blowdown with a tractor once. The #### hit the fan so fast I couldn't believe it. Smashed the hood, but could have easily been me. Anybody who has shot a recurve bow has respect for the amount of power which can be stored in even small wood



How do you think my kids got here? LOL. :msp_unsure:


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## Spotted Owl (Jun 28, 2013)

That, uh. Errr. That's an awfully "green" place to visit, isn't it? I didn't realize there were structured groups that do trail cleaning. We just usually get some guys together and get to it. Pretty cool to see that there are dedicated volunteers who do this. 

It's a pretty neat place though.



Owl.


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## dooby (Jun 28, 2013)

As far as chicks go- slowp- You r kool. But that's not that far under certain variances!!!!L.O.L. All those posts or not, :msp_tongue:


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## slowp (Jun 29, 2013)

Spotted Owl got a compliment for his post. It was well done.


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## 056 kid (Jun 29, 2013)

Pine, open up a face with a block on say a 32" top bound.face less than half diameter, and didn't close up more than 3 kerfs,(like its not under that much tension..) touch the other side, I mean rub it with your pocket knife and POW! I get a kick out of stuff like that. Clean break too. 

Trivia. Which does pine like better?
spanning a draw or centering a hump?

Hint, Fir is the opposite...


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 30, 2013)

pine here, i'd say span a draw. hello kid, ain't seen ya lately. ya been busey?


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## 056 kid (Jun 30, 2013)

Busy, yea. Also I was tired of giving Verizon so much $$ for the 4g. I have WiFi now but I have to be plastered to a window doe it to work. Typing on a phone is terrible as my spelling shows.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 30, 2013)

#### I can't spell lookin at the regular keys.


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## 056 kid (Jun 30, 2013)

I swear this thing makes errors of its own. I know I do some, but its excessive. If I had money I'd destroy smart phones for pleasure. And aside from momentary episodes, I'd kill them in front of best buy so the tech folks could watch. The cursor alone on this thing makes me so angry. It WILL NOT WILL NOT go where you put it. It has some orange dot below it and a little magnified window to see where it is, but I'd have to quarter saw my pinky finger to have enough accuracy to use it. Just a minute ago I accidentally typed about 6 letters of gibberish and it refused to "Plow",(i added the parenthesis, but I typed Allow and it wrote plow, no kidding.) .me to erase it. The damn thing doesn't recognize the word "fir". 
As I was typing just now, talking trash about it and it started lagging and getting dumb. So much effort to make things cunning and techie, easy and helpful, and it just makes chit harder for me at least. 
This paragraph alone required probably 5 minutes of ####ing around with cursor. Starr a sentence behind the last one and all but the first letter are at the beginning of the text. Sitting here explaining the problems as they appear, I bet I could go on and on just documenting the problems that occurred while trying to document previous ####ups. And no smartphone, I dis not mean to type "duckups", jeeeeeesasss

No period to end at jeeeez cause the cursor won't Allow it. It just goes on and on.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 30, 2013)

056 kid said:


> I swear this thing makes errors of its own. I know I do some, but its excessive. If I had money I'd destroy smart phones for pleasure. And aside from momentary episodes, I'd kill them in front of best buy so the tech folks could watch. The cursor alone on this thing makes me so angry. It WILL NOT WILL NOT go where you put it. It has some orange dot below it and a little magnified window to see where it is, but I'd have to quarter saw my pinky finger to have enough accuracy to use it. Just a minute ago I accidentally typed about 6 letters of gibberish and it refused to "Plow",(i added the parenthesis, but I typed Allow and it wrote plow, no kidding.) .me to erase it. The damn thing doesn't recognize the word "fir".
> As I was typing just now, talking trash about it and it started lagging and getting dumb. So much effort to make things cunning and techie, easy and helpful, and it just makes chit harder for me at least.
> This paragraph alone required probably 5 minutes of ####ing around with cursor. Starr a sentence behind the last one and all but the first letter are at the beginning of the text. Sitting here explaining the problems as they appear, I bet I could go on and on just documenting the problems that occurred while trying to document previous ####ups. And no smartphone, I dis not mean to type "duckups", jeeeeeesasss
> 
> No period to end at jeeeez cause the cursor won't Allow it. It just goes on and on.



just as I suspected, no need for me to get one of those.


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## roberte (Jun 30, 2013)

These screens are not made for fat sausage fingers


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## mdavlee (Jun 30, 2013)

Tapatalk is much easier to use than the browser for AS on a smart phone. It's been the best $2 I spent.


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## roberte (Jun 30, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Tapatalk is much easier to use than the browser for AS on a smart phone. It's been the best $2 I spent.



I'm due for an upgrade shortly, to the POS 10000.
The POS 9000 will then go in a humbolt and backcut...


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## OlympicYJ (Jul 3, 2013)

Read some posts from your link Patty. Keep up the good fight. Bob and Owl too! I don't have time for that sort of forum and sadly not much time for here anymore with work. Anyhoo as a side note the guy that posted the pics of the Colonel Bob trail cleanup was cool, the trail is actually the Pete's Creek trail that goes up on Colonel Bob. First pics I've seen of the cleanup. I just wanted to say that the Back Country Horsemem did alot of that work especially with the blowdown. They got the go ahead to use chainsaws in the wilderness and one of the members is a retired faller that went to school with my dad. He told him he had to go through the training course and get "certified"... quite ridiculous considering that he or Bob, Owl, Pac or any experienced faller could teach that course and no doubt do a better job.

Give em hell Boys!


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## slowp (Jul 3, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Read some posts from your link Patty. Keep up the good fight. Bob and Owl too! I don't have time for that sort of forum and sadly not much time for here anymore with work. Anyhoo as a side note the guy that posted the pics of the Colonel Bob trail cleanup was cool, the trail is actually the Pete's Creek trail that goes up on Colonel Bob. First pics I've seen of the cleanup. I just wanted to say that the Back Country Horsemem did alot of that work especially with the blowdown. They got the go ahead to use chainsaws in the wilderness and one of the members is a retired faller that went to school with my dad. He told him he had to go through the training course and get "certified"... quite ridiculous considering that he or Bob, Owl, Pac or any experienced faller could teach that course and no doubt do a better job.
> 
> Give em hell Boys!



There has actually been talk on that forum that maybe the FS should designate a week each year for chainsaw use in they wilderness. Crosscut work is so darn slow. But, I'd also want a chainsaw and gear carrying sherpa/horse/goat/llama or mule. Or, I wonder if travois are legal in the wilderness? A Used Dog pulling a travois would be hmmmmmm interesting and knowing him, he would sit down in protest and not move after a while unless I had a tennis ball on a stick in front of him. Hmmmm. Travois and dogs are the old way so should be legal. 

But, a pair of real fallers could clear out a heck of a lot of trail and I'd volunteer to be a sherpa.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 3, 2013)

I could maybe pack in a few miles for a job like that, get someone to pack my water or saw gas, drag along a spare bar and a couple chains shouldn't be to bad, I know I would regret it for a week or so after, but it would be worth it. If it was day tripping anyway, overnight means a whole lot more weight to carry... fud, shelter, sleeping bag, cooking stuff... beer... more beer... and likely three times the water.

The bonus would be getting all the yuppie gurls to start swearing and telling dirty jokes by the time the day was done...:msp_wink:


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