# Any One Else Sign Waivers Before Cutting On Others' Land?



## flyboy553 (Nov 1, 2012)

I carry waivers in my truck for the landowner and myself to sign, that releases the owner from any/all liability if me or my equipment is hurt on his property. I am wondering if anyone else does. If not, why not.

I have NO problem at all signing one, and if someone wanted to cut on my land, I would make them sign one also. While I personally would never attempt to blame the landowner for my injury, who's to say my family wouldn't if I did get seriously injured?

When the idea of a waiver is MY idea and not the landowners, it sure makes it a lot easier for them to decide to let me cut there. 

I also carry the phone numbers of places I cut so they can call for a reference if they want one. Usually, they call me, after getting my name from someone whose land I am already cutting on, but sometimes I just stop in out of the blue if I see a ton of dead oak in their woods and no evidence of wood burning in their yard. Is that considered FAD? S'pose it is, but so what!:msp_wub:

Ted


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## greendohn (Nov 1, 2012)

Yeah, I've signed waivers before. I can't blame a guy if he wants me to sign one. Not a problem.


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## Gologit (Nov 1, 2012)

Waivers are okay but they're more of a courtesy than anything else....a show of good faith and intention. They don't mean much. If you get injured your insurance company might go after the property owner for your medical costs.

We used to allow firewood cutters on our property if they signed a waiver. Everybody was happy with that, except our insurance company. They explained that, even though the injured person didn't sue us personally, a waiver meant nothing to the injured party's insurance company.

Sure enough, a guy fell down an embankment and broke his leg. He was cool about it but his insurance company held our insurance company liable for medical expenses. Our insurance company gave us two choices...cut the liabilty involved by keeping the firewood cutters off our ground or get ready for a massive rate increase. Guess which one we chose?

Firewood cutters were a PITA but, if properly managed, they did a lot of cleanup work for us after we logged. Now we do it ourselves.


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## flyboy553 (Nov 1, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Waivers are okay but they're more of a courtesy than anything else....a show of good faith and intention. They don't mean much. If you get injured your insurance company might go after the property owner for your medical costs.
> 
> We used to allow firewood cutters on our property if they signed a waiver. Everybody was happy with that, except our insurance company. They explained that, even though the injured person didn't sue us personally, a waiver meant nothing to the injured party's insurance company.
> 
> ...



So, in affect, your paying for it anyway, just not to the insurance company. Your man hours doing clean up are not free, not to mention equipment usage, wear and tear, and the time spent doing it. That time could be being spent making money instead of doing overhead work. So not only is the cleanup crew not making you any money, they are COSTING you money to do it! That increase in insurance must have been huge to undertake the extra costs it created!

I have been told by others the same thing you mention though, inre: ins. company doesn't give a rats' rear about that waiver.

Ted


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## Gologit (Nov 1, 2012)

flyboy553 said:


> So, in affect, your paying for it anyway, just not to the insurance company. Your man hours doing clean up are not free, not to mention equipment usage, wear and tear, and the time spent doing it. That time could be being spent making money instead of doing overhead work. So not only is the cleanup crew not making you any money, they are COSTING you money to do it! That increase in insurance must have been huge to undertake the extra costs it created!
> 
> I have been told by others the same thing you mention though, inre: ins. company doesn't give a rats' rear about that waiver.
> 
> Ted



You're right, our costs _have_ increased. But at the same time we've gone to more efficient methods of cleanup and ground remediation. We pile most of our slash for chipping. The chipping contractor brings in his machine, does his own skidding and contracts for the hauling. Dollar wise it's a break even deal for us but we're still better off. 

The main benefit of closing our ground to firewood cutters has been the time it frees up for us to do other things and the lack of aggravation. We might deck some firewood logs to sell to a commercial outfit but things just work out better if we keep the week-end warriors out. 

I don't mean this as a slam on firewood cutters...I know you guys need wood to heat your homes. It's a healthy recreation and it helps to make good use of a renewable resource. But you've made a deliberate decision to do that and you've also willingly taken on the costs and responsibilities that that entails. That's your choice.

Our choice is to keep the firewood cutters out. Waivers wouldn't help us. Or them.


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 1, 2012)

Some states have built-in laws protecting land owners for non-profit activities.
As long as the land owner is not making money from the guy’s colleting firewood,
You’re not responsible. 

If you don’t have a law protecting you, you can sign a contract stating the firewood cutters are a business and then charge you a nominal fee to provide you a service.

But if you’re in California you’re screwed, if you let them cut wood and they get hurt you will get sued, if you don’t let them cut wood they will sue you for not letting them cut.

Then if you loose the law suit, some tree hugger green organization will get a court order forcing you to answer a law suit that has noting to do with anything protecting a creature that no one has ever seen.


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## redheadwoodshed (Nov 1, 2012)

This brings up another question.I was recently working in a small town cutting a dead pine out of a yard.The house are on about half acre lots on this street.I went next door to tell the neighbors what I was doing and not to worry but stay out of their back yard for the next 30 minutes or so, just to be on the safe side, in case the pine didn't go were I asked it to. The lady and her daughter agreed and she then asked me if I could cut a tree for her.A 30 something inch DBH cow oak, dead with some big limbs already falling out of it.No problem if I had the room, but the tree wants to go on the corner of her house and perhaps even her neighbors front porch.Again, I'm sure I could convince it to stay off of the houses, but that only leaves the street.She told me she couldn't pay so this would be charity work, just like the tree I had just finished was charity work.I informed her she would have to coordinate with her neighbors so their vehicle will be clear of the drop zone and their kids as well and talk to the mayor and see if we can bed the old oak partially in the street without getting in trouble with the village government.And I would have to have some kind of waiver, just in case things didn't go my way and the old oak was contrary.Let me also state I am not insured or a licensed arborist, just a good neighbor with some chainsaws, some 3/4" cable, snatch blocks,some chains and a tractor.
Oh, and I also told her she needed to tell her friends to come get some firewood, because I would cut it up, and take some, but there would be a BIG mess left.


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## stihly dan (Nov 1, 2012)

How is your waiver written? Can you get a pic of it?


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 2, 2012)

Give this a go, feel free to change if needed



Firewood cutting on Private land 
WAIVER AND RELEASE OF LIABILITY 

I, the undersigned, after due consideration of my age, health, physical condition and ability, and understand the inherent risks involved in the PROCESS OF CUTTING FIREWOOD, hereby release, and agree to indemnify and hold harmless
(LAND OWNER) _________________________ and any of their respective insurers, heirs, employees, agents and representatives from liability for any injury, loss or damage resulting from my participation in any activities contemplated by this agreement, whether such damage, loss, or injury is anticipated or unanticipated, or whether it results from the negligence of LAND OWNER, or any of their respective insurers, heirs, employees, agents and representatives. 

I realize that cutting firewood may involve risks and hazards, including the risk of injury and possible death. I am aware of the risks and hazards inherent in cutting firewood and do hereby assume sole responsibility for all such risks and waive all claims against LAND OWNER and its respective agents, representatives, officers, employees, successors, assigns and insurers. 

I authorize LAND OWNER to obtain medical attention for me in case of emergency if unable to reach the physician stated below, and I release LAND OWNER for such medical attention.

By signing this Waiver and Release, I hereby acknowledge that I have read, understood and voluntarily agreed to the foregoing waiver and release agreement. 

Person cutting firewood|

Print name: _________________________

Address: ___________________________

Phone: _____________________________ 

Signature: __________________________ Date: ________________ 

LAND OWNER

Print name: _________________________

Address: ___________________________

Phone: _____________________________ 

Signature: __________________________ Date: ________________ 





SIGNATURE OF PARENT OR GUARDIAN IF FIREWOOD CUTTER IS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE 

Signature __________________________Date:________________ Phone________________


Emergency Contact Name:_________________ Phone: ____________________ 

Name of Physician: Phone: __________________________


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## zogger (Nov 2, 2012)

Gologit said:


> You're right, our costs _have_ increased. But at the same time we've gone to more efficient methods of cleanup and ground remediation. We pile most of our slash for chipping. The chipping contractor brings in his machine, does his own skidding and contracts for the hauling. Dollar wise it's a break even deal for us but we're still better off.
> 
> The main benefit of closing our ground to firewood cutters has been the time it frees up for us to do other things and the lack of aggravation. We might deck some firewood logs to sell to a commercial outfit but things just work out better if we keep the week-end warriors out.
> 
> ...



Ha! I can chime in here because one of my jobs in the past involved me shaving and wearing a monkey suit to work. I was an AH&L insurance guy. What the other poster said, if you had sold the wood for ten bucks (stumpage) and worded the contract better, you would have been cool, either with that company or another one. And there is a HUGE difference in insurance companies out there. Someone local could have worked up the contract for you. heck, you can even get one day or one week contractors insurance for cheap, used to do it all the time. Tell the firewood cutters to do that. 

Unless things have radically changed since I was in the biz, this is all still true.


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## hardpan (Nov 2, 2012)

True the waiver will probably not stop the insurance companies but it demonstrates a sense of responsibility and that is a good step toward gaining access. I was once cutting a fallen dead oak tree that was laying in a corn field that was owned by a church. I didn't have permission but what the heck, I wasn't going to charge them for my work. LOL A guy pulls up in a pick-up and asks how I'm doing. I said fine, just cutting a little fire wood. He asked why I was dragging and stacking the limbs off to the edge. I told him that was the way I always did it, clean up the mess. He said he had just had a big woods logged a couple miles down the road and there was a lot of scraps left over at the landing and in the woods but he wouldn't give me permission to cut it. He went on to give me a detailed description of the route to the landing and the dirt road was only usable when it was dry, but he wouldn't give me permission to cut there. We went on with this cat and mouse game for a while longer and then parted ways. Of course he wanted me to "steal" it and provide himself with a level of liability protection. I later found out the guy was a logger and had been for as many years as I've been on this earth so he just might have known a crack in the law, maybe if he prosecuted me for theft. I did not cut his wood. I certainly don't blame someone for protecting themselves from the "sewers" that are all around us.


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## flyboy553 (Nov 2, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> Give this a go, feel free to change if needed
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is very similar to the one I carry. Was going to take a pic of mine and post it here, but dang batteries in camera are dead. Again. But now that you posted this one, I don't have post mine! Yay! Thanks!

Ted


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## grinder1 (Apr 5, 2013)

thanks a bunch for posting the text. Copied it and they'll be in my truck with me at all times.


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## Cheesecutter (Apr 5, 2013)

Yup similar to the one use also. Most guys don't even bother with them, but I still ask. I agree, it shows you are responsible , and I can get onto places other can't.


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## flashhole (Apr 5, 2013)

We used to use waivers for equestrian activities on the property. There was an incident and the insurance company for the injured person came after me big time. My homeowners covered it but my rates went up. The waiver doesn't mean diddly.


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## chaikwa (Apr 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> We used to allow firewood cutters on our property if they signed a waiver.
> Sure enough, a guy fell down an embankment and broke his leg. He was cool about it but his insurance company held our insurance company liable for medical expenses. Our insurance company gave us two choices...cut the liabilty involved by keeping the firewood cutters off our ground or get ready for a massive rate increase.
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, I was gonna say, "Find another insurance company". Our insurance company gave us the waiver we use for people in our woodlot, whether they're sawing firewood or taking a class from us. 



flashhole said:


> We used to use waivers for equestrian activities on the property. There was an incident and the insurance company for the injured person came after me big time. My homeowners covered it but my rates went up. The waiver doesn't mean diddly.


I don't know about NY state, they're kind of a 'communist state' from what I've seen, but here in Michigan and a couple of the New England states have an 'Equestrian Law' that holds the owner of a horse facility harmless from injuries sustained by it's visitors unless the property owner has done something obviously negligent, like digging a huge hole then covering it with brush to see if a horse will fall in it!


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## cre73 (Apr 5, 2013)

I carry similar waivers when requesting hunting privileges. Fortunately I have never been injured but if I was I sure wouldn't report to my insurance carrier where I was. Got to the hospital get fixed tell anyone who asked that I fell down my stairs. I'm sure if it was more serious and I had to be hauled out it would be more difficult.


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## Dogsout (Apr 5, 2013)

You know if I worried about insurance, suing and lawyers as much as half of the people on this board it sure would be a sad state of affairs. I sure wouldn't have any friends, I would never get anything done and I would make my mother and father sign waivers before they set foot on my property. You never know they could sprain their ankle on my sidewalk and sue me for everything I am worth. No wait a minute I carry liability insurance just for that reason. Pretty far fetched I know but to eliminate EVERY possibility in you life of getting sued is pointless. As far as the firewood cutting question if Joe Blow pulls into my driveway and wants to cut down a tree and I feel confident he is up to the task he will get that tree, probable lawsuit or not. Again that is why I carry insurance. As I stated before "A little common sense will go a long way". And last but not least there is a LARGE number of people on this board that talk to there attorneys WAY to much, and live their lives according to what makes their insurance company and lawyer happy. This is coming from a guy that has seen an attorney one time in my life to draw up a will. I am off my soap box now but dang it I get really tired of reading all of these post that start out "my insurance company" or "my lawyer says". *JMO*


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## chaikwa (Apr 5, 2013)

Dogsout said:


> You know if I worried about insurance, suing and lawyers as much as half of the people on this board it sure would be a sad state of affairs. I sure wouldn't have any friends, I would never get anything done and I would make my mother and father sign waivers before they set foot on my property. You never know they could sprain their ankle on my sidewalk and sue me for everything I am worth. No wait a minute I carry liability insurance just for that reason. Pretty far fetched I know but to eliminate EVERY possibility in you life of getting sued is pointless. As far as the firewood cutting question if Joe Blow pulls into my driveway and wants to cut down a tree and I feel confident he is up to the task he will get that tree, probable lawsuit or not. Again that is why I carry insurance. As I stated before "A little common sense will go a long way". And last but not least there is a LARGE number of people on this board that talk to there attorneys WAY to much, and live their lives according to what makes their insurance company and lawyer happy. This is coming from a guy that has seen an attorney one time in my life to draw up a will. I am off my soap box now but dang it I get really tired of reading all of these post that start out "my insurance company" or "my lawyer says". *JMO*



I agree with you fully, but I also understand where *SOME* of these people's comments come from. 

Thru my fire department, we run a 'Juvenile Fire Setter Intervention Program'. Essentially it is a program for kids under 18 who have maliciously set a fire. Without writing a book here, there are mental health professionals as well as law enforcement and the courts on board. What we do from a fire department perspective is run the kids thru a mini-fire academy. We don't subject them to fighting a full blown structure fire, but they DO have to familiarize themselves with ALL the personal protective equipment firefighters wear, and they have to wear it. They do a 'search and rescue' in a smoke filled structure and drag out the training dummy that weighs 150 pounds. They handle a fully charged hose line and advance it forward in various scenarios; in a house, up a muddy slippery embankment and around and into a motor vehicle. They extinguish a flammable liquids fire with a dry chemical device. And they do all of this in full PPE and SCBA. To say they get a workout is an understatement. But they also develop an appreciation for what we do when they set a fire. And they learn the value of working together in a team. They learn a lot more too, but I think you can see the potential for them to get injured is immense. My point here is, there is no insurance company in their right mind that would condone such activities, much less cover them. Thankfully, we have a forward thinking Chief that can see past liability and strive for a positive outcome. He has decided to take a chance on us, the guys running the program, in return for the potential of turning a few kids in the right direction. If he did not have this attitude, I don't know where the thousand-plus kids we've put thru this program would be today. I guess sometimes you just gotta say the heck with liability.


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## kevin j (Apr 6, 2013)

I have one we use for firewood and for motorcycle riding on others lands. Have rearely used it, realize the lawyers would go right through it probablky, but it shows good faithy to the landowner. 

The other side is having the owners signature on my copy is that it covers MY butt. Only one instance but we had permission to clean up some wood and it turns out the person was a renter of one property and did not own or rent the strip we were on. Owner stopped, was all good about it, but I realized we had nothing to cover us had he been cranky. 
But as said I have rarely used it unless the situation just feels funny. And then often best to walk aay.


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## flyboy553 (Apr 6, 2013)

I realize a release form is not worth much legally. However, they are priceless when it comes to the landowner's piece of mind. And his willingness to let you cut on his land.

Ted


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## mga (Apr 6, 2013)

i usually do a hand shake agreement, with witnesses stating that i will not hold the landowner liable for any injury that may happen to me, and likewise, the landowner will not hold me liable for any damage that may occur while cutting or removing wood. in most cases, the landowner like that.

i do not cut near wires, structures of any type, and fences because i'm not insured, but, some times the truck or trailer will leave marks on a lawn and i am not going back to do a complete landscaping job for them because of it. they are getting a free service. i haven't had any problems yet.

so, signing a form removing liability for personal injury may be a good idea, but you should include any damage to the property in that agreement.

i believe here in NY that agreement is null because if i break a leg the insurance company will still go after the homeowner. so.....if you want to be a good sport, say the injury happened at home...not while you were cutting at so-and-so's house.

it's really too bad that these days you have to practically need a law degree just to cut wood, but with so many people and lawyers looking to make a quick buck, that's what you gotta do.

i wanted to put my boat in the water and i was told i need insurance. so, i figured it can't be that bad since it's only being used a couple times a year.....wrong! depending on my coverage, it would cost me $300 to $500 per year!! my agent said so many people are getting in boat accidents and so many people are suing, the insurance companies have to cover their butts. it's not mandatory, but if my boat sank, the EPA will force me to have it removed from the water plus pay to clean up any spilled gas or oil on the water.

any injuries caused by my boat, if i don't have insurance, they can sue me and own my home!!

wtf??

plus, if my boat hits another boat even while docking, the people on the other boat will claim whiplash and sue...just like those tv lawyers say in car accidents.

so, i'm selling it.

back to cutting...if you have a friend with you, be sure you can trust them as well. if they get hurt, they can go after you and the homeowner and make you look like a fool.

what a world we live in.


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## blades (Apr 6, 2013)

last place i cut, I had to provide proof of liability insurance which I have for my shop and snowplowing, ( covers me for about anything) but it isn't in-expensive.


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## grinder1 (Apr 10, 2013)

*sad*

makes you just want to stay in bed sometimes...


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## zogger (Apr 10, 2013)

chaikwa said:


> I agree with you fully, but I also understand where *SOME* of these people's comments come from.
> 
> Thru my fire department, we run a 'Juvenile Fire Setter Intervention Program'. Essentially it is a program for kids under 18 who have maliciously set a fire. Without writing a book here, there are mental health professionals as well as law enforcement and the courts on board. What we do from a fire department perspective is run the kids thru a mini-fire academy. We don't subject them to fighting a full blown structure fire, but they DO have to familiarize themselves with ALL the personal protective equipment firefighters wear, and they have to wear it. They do a 'search and rescue' in a smoke filled structure and drag out the training dummy that weighs 150 pounds. They handle a fully charged hose line and advance it forward in various scenarios; in a house, up a muddy slippery embankment and around and into a motor vehicle. They extinguish a flammable liquids fire with a dry chemical device. And they do all of this in full PPE and SCBA. To say they get a workout is an understatement. But they also develop an appreciation for what we do when they set a fire. And they learn the value of working together in a team. They learn a lot more too, but I think you can see the potential for them to get injured is immense. My point here is, there is no insurance company in their right mind that would condone such activities, much less cover them. Thankfully, we have a forward thinking Chief that can see past liability and strive for a positive outcome. He has decided to take a chance on us, the guys running the program, in return for the potential of turning a few kids in the right direction. If he did not have this attitude, I don't know where the thousand-plus kids we've put thru this program would be today. I guess sometimes you just gotta say the heck with liability.



You have a THOUSAND kids in your area who have set malicious fires!?! Am I reading this right and understanding this correctly?

I know I never have, and none of my friends growing up did either, as far as I know. I just dont remember anything like that.

Sure this is the correct place to address this, after the fact, rather than coming down hard on the parents and the public indoctrination and forced psychoactive drugging centers?


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