# Boss wants this out of creek...safest way advice please



## HumboldtGilles (Apr 22, 2016)

Hey guys,
I manage a hay farm here in Southern Oregon, and my 72 year old boss wants this log out of the creek. As you can see I've cut out everything on the bank without problems, but now I'm onto this bit of a puzzle. I've never cut anything like this as I'm mainly a firewood cutter and felling smaller diameter trees on the farm, but I didn't feel comfortable to cut this without a little research and advice. Thanks in advance. Photo below.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Apr 22, 2016)

What do you have for equipment? Skidder? Tractor? Team of chihuahuas?


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## HumboldtGilles (Apr 22, 2016)

Have a several tractors but won't be able to get them back there. Basically just have myself and a saw with necessary equipment. I told her we could leave it, but it messes up her "chi" when she goes for walks back there. Would it be in my best interest to leave it alone unless I get a come along or something like that to pull it down?


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## Frogfarmer (Apr 22, 2016)

Just keep cutting blocks. You are going to get your feet wet but you'll dry. Looks pretty simple from here.


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## 2dogs (Apr 22, 2016)

Frogfarmer said:


> Just keep cutting blocks. You are going to get your feet wet but you'll dry. Looks pretty simple from here.


My thoughts exactly. However this is a riparian zone so consider leaving it in place. Down here we never take large woody debris from the streambed.


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## bikemike (Apr 22, 2016)

Get ur boots wet and chunk it up


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## Ted Jenkins (Apr 22, 2016)

It looks like a cake walk from here, but have been doing tree removal for at least 40 years. You are wise to act cautiously. I have seen many beginners break a foot ankle or even a leg. Start with a chain rope or what ever you have to secure the log in place so when you are cutting it it does not roll onto you. You will need to make several cuts under the log to keep from pinching your saw. So if you are more comfortable in cutting from the top then you will need a few wedges preferably not steel. If you have some hardwood available cut several narrow wedges with your saw out of some good size limbs. If you use limbs that are attached to something then you will not have to have them secured while cutting them. So cut haft way through your log then drive your wedges from the top to keep your saw from pinching. you can then cut all the way through the log before it drops. Pick a point in the middle so you do not have to repeat the process for every cut. Take it slowly and be safe. Cuts and scraps heal, but other injuries may not ever heal. Thanks


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## Frogfarmer (Apr 22, 2016)

"Riparian". That's a 10 dollar word for this farmer. I agree with the posters boss that it's a log that needs to go.


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## bikemike (Apr 22, 2016)

Frogfarmer said:


> "Riparian". That's a 10 dollar word for this farmer. I agree with the posters boss that it's a log that needs to go.


If it went a down stream 20 foot could make a nice Lil water hole


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## 2dogs (Apr 22, 2016)

Frogfarmer said:


> "Riparian". That's a 10 dollar word for this farmer. I agree with the posters boss that it's a log that needs to go.


You should not be posting in a forum dealing with forestry issues if you don't know what a simple word like riparian means. Go post in Chainsaw.
For anyone else riparian simply means where the water and the land meet. Around here the riparian zone is generally 150' from the water edge but sometimes from the nominal center of the stream. I am helping put an extensive forest management plan for a "hot" 525 acre parcel. It will be divided into 3 different treatment prescriptions but the overarching concerns will be the riparian zones.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 22, 2016)

100' of 3/8" cable is cheap, and shouldn't break right away.

Others wise chunk it and toss it, try to work form the up creek side if possible, and start from the side closest to the the ground, being more and more careful the closer to the high bank you get.

but also around here cutting in the creeks and swamps is a no no.


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## Philbert (Apr 22, 2016)

Always hard to go by the pictures, but . . . as noted, the log can roll as you cut it - you want it to roll away from you! It can also slide: what is called 'end bind', when you cut out lower sections. This is the same whether it is in a creek, on on a hill. Taking the weight off of the top, and using wedges to avoid pinching, can be used to reduce end bind. Once the log is on the ground, it is straight forward bucking. But I would try to get some large limbs underneath it before it drops, to make bucking easier, and cleaner in that sandy environment.

Philbert


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 23, 2016)

The best way to handle that is bore through 2/3 to the top side and cut down and out the bottom. Start at the lowest spot where you can bore through without hitting anything. You will have to do it from a knee position to start then they will get easier. If you don't start from the bottom,it will keep getting closer to the rocks as each cut will open up from the weight creating sage. Once you have all your blocks 2/3 cut into what will be manageable pieces. then start back at the low end and underbuck off your blocks.
When you get about 7 ft left underbuck in half and flip the big end down. If it hasn't fallen, now line it up to Finnish underbucks. Don't be cutting on the same side that it keeps moving to as it gets shorter and steeper.


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## ArtB (Apr 24, 2016)

Why bore? I avoid boring whenever possible. Is there a good reason to bore vs. just a 2" deep cut in the top and then back blade from the bottom and pull the saw as log starts to fall ?

From the looks of the rocks in the creek bed and visualizing flood season, OP's boss's 'chi' would be better served by letting it be for a season or 2, looks like high water will move it by next year? Is not the 72 yo yuppie definition of chi something like 'natural effects' or ' Ghia will take care of it' ?


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 24, 2016)

ArtB said:


> Why bore? I avoid boring whenever possible. Is there a good reason to bore vs. just a 2" deep cut in the top and then back blade from the bottom and pull the saw as log starts to fall ?
> 
> From the looks of the rocks in the creek bed and visualizing flood season, OP's boss's 'chi' would be better served by letting it be for a season or 2, looks like high water will move it by next year? Is not the 72 yo yuppie definition of chi something like 'natural effects' or ' Ghia will take care of it' ?


My approach and reasoning is not based on this case this small task before us.
It's with a hard day's work in mind and perhaps 24 consecutive days begining or comming to end. It's always about fatigue. Doing the most work expelling the least amount of energy.Its about controlling your environment. "Plan the work & work the plan" If this was my easiest job of the day then I would try do it at the end of the day. Obviously that's a perfect world & not always realistic. I have the great big picture approach. I never give advice like Its their only job they will evey do. If that was the case, I wouldn't bother. I'd probably spend my time talking them out of it.
Practice and comfortability of a different technique:
Works great for removal of a lot of leaners (fire ladders) in a days cutting.
It's very strenuous to underbuck at heights all day. (*Do not try it with the possibility of side bind)
With very low clearance it's also the way to go. People try cut what they can from the top but they end up lowering the log on every attempt. Apart from what @Ted Jenkins was describing. Ted is creative, you can tell the experience level there.
His technique with the wedges should be a consideration and practiced. Whether one carries wedges or not. It's all tools for the "bag' right?


I agree that with this log, most experienced guys would probably cut 2-4 ft lengths cutting from the top about 40% then underbuck them off. Then block them from the top and muscle the lengths to roll and finish blocking.


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## moondoggie (Apr 24, 2016)

bikemike said:


> Get ur boots wet and chunk it up


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## LittleLebowski (Apr 24, 2016)

2dogs said:


> You should not be posting in a forum dealing with forestry issues if you don't know what a simple word like riparian means. Go post in Chainsaw.
> For anyone else riparian simply means where the water and the land meet. Around here the riparian zone is generally 150' from the water edge but sometimes from the nominal center of the stream. I am helping put an extensive forest management plan for a "hot" 525 acre parcel. It will be divided into 3 different treatment prescriptions but the overarching concerns will be the riparian zones.



Are you trying to cite a legal issue?


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## Frogfarmer (Apr 24, 2016)

LittleLebowski said:


> Are you trying to cite a legal issue?



He was getting his 2000 words at my expense. Lol


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Apr 24, 2016)

HumboldtGilles said:


> Hey guys,
> I manage a hay farm here in Southern Oregon, and my 72 year old boss wants this log out of the creek. As you can see I've cut out everything on the bank without problems, but now I'm onto this bit of a puzzle. I've never cut anything like this as I'm mainly a firewood cutter and felling smaller diameter trees on the farm, but I didn't feel comfortable to cut this without a little research and advice. Thanks in advance. Photo below. View attachment 499774



beautiful country!~ ...


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## slowp (Apr 24, 2016)

I shall help 2dogs. First, is it a fish bearing stream (does it have fish in it?) Looks like it might be a perennial stream (dries up part of the year) which would not be a fish bearing stream. But there are other considerations to take into account. 

Next, google _*Oregon Forest Practices act. *_ It'll basically say to leave down trees in creeks. If your boss is into "Chi" she or he ought to be in touch with goodness for the fish and the land. Educate yourself and then educate your boss. 

Note the erosion of the stream bank. It's going to go erode faster with that tree gone. Trees in streams slow water down, make pools for critters and are not a bad thing to have there. Too late now. It used to be the thing to clean every little piece of wood out of the creeks. Now we're putting wood back in streams and rivers--even using helicopters to place logs in rivers. 

Read people. Learn about real forestry and land stewardship. It's more than moving equipment in and cutting things up. Another shot at another angle, like up or down the creek would help even more.


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Apr 24, 2016)

Frogfarmer said:


> Just keep cutting blocks. You are going to get your feet wet but you'll dry. Looks pretty simple from here.



yeah, that is good advice. hay farm manager?? you got plenty of 'rural' type experience... so call on it, and use it to guide you... if it was mine, and I had the gap to the water... to deal with etc... I would cut it into chunks... 1/4 down for each cut... use other woods to support it or wedges... take wedges out, be careful... its heavy and will 'splash' big as hits water... be sure no brookies in there... lol... of course... could let it sit there in the interest of time and safety... see if the water can move it next rains... work on the one on gound first...

bottom line is whatever... just don't get hurt... it is a precariously set trunk... not an easy bucking job... Think Safety At All Times....

_keep us posted..._


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Apr 24, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 100' of 3/8" cable is cheap, and shouldn't break right away. Others wise chunk it and toss it, try to work form the up creek side if possible, and start from the side closest to the the ground, being more and more careful the closer to the high bank you get. but also around here cutting in the creeks and swamps is a no no.



_>100' of 3/8" cable is cheap,_

hadn't thot of 'dragging' it down first... and had thot cable mite be a smart way to deal with it... come-a-long it via another tree for example. once off back and out of water and on dry portion of river's bed the elements of danger get significantly reduced...


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## Philbert (Apr 24, 2016)

slowp said:


> I shall help 2dogs.


Nice to see you 'back' Patti!

Philbert


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## rwoods (Apr 24, 2016)

slowp, good to see you are still around. Ron


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Apr 24, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> The best way to handle that is bore through 2/3 to the top side and cut down and out the bottom. Start at the lowest spot where you can bore through without hitting anything. You will have to do it from a knee position to start then they will get easier. If you don't start from the bottom,it will keep getting closer to the rocks as each cut will open up from the weight creating sage. Once you have all your blocks 2/3 cut into what will be manageable pieces. then start back at the low end and underbuck off your blocks. When you get about 7 ft left underbuck in half and flip the big end down. If it hasn't fallen, now line it up to Finnish underbucks. Don't be cutting on the same side that it keeps moving to as it gets shorter and steeper.



respectfully, I do not think this is the best way to do it. I think the best way to do it is to drag it off the bank, out of the water... and cut it with you 100% in control. cutting is where it is now is not you in 100% control...

as is, can you say: *DANGER!*


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Apr 24, 2016)

s


slowp said:


> I shall help 2dogs. First, is it a fish bearing stream (does it have fish in it?) Looks like it might be a perennial stream (dries up part of the year) which would not be a fish bearing stream. But there are other considerations to take into account.
> 
> Next, google _*Oregon Forest Practices act. *_ It'll basically say to leave down trees in creeks. If your boss is into "Chi" she or he ought to be in touch with goodness for the fish and the land. Educate yourself and then educate your boss.
> 
> ...



so many thots and offers of advice. certainly learning more about stewardship of woodlots and streams a good idea. to me, it looks as if the tree fell R to L. consequently, don't think it will affect that bank. if so, not materially. looking into the pix, does appear stream upstream is dry currently. these types of streams we call down here 'seasonal creeks'. all things considered... if it was my place and my stream... I would like to clean it up. haul it out and onto dry land... and buck it.

good thread, imo.... very interesting!


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## LittleLebowski (Apr 24, 2016)

Ted Jenkins said:


> It looks like a cake walk from here, but have been doing tree removal for at least 40 years. You are wise to act cautiously. I have seen many beginners break a foot ankle or even a leg. Start with a chain rope or what ever you have to secure the log in place so when you are cutting it it does not roll onto you. You will need to make several cuts under the log to keep from pinching your saw. So if you are more comfortable in cutting from the top then you will need a few wedges preferably not steel. If you have some hardwood available cut several narrow wedges with your saw out of some good size limbs. If you use limbs that are attached to something then you will not have to have them secured while cutting them. So cut haft way through your log then drive your wedges from the top to keep your saw from pinching. you can then cut all the way through the log before it drops. Pick a point in the middle so you do not have to repeat the process for every cut. Take it slowly and be safe. Cuts and scraps heal, but other injuries may not ever heal. Thanks



Posts like this are why I love this place.

I hope that the landowner does what she wants with the tree.


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## madhatte (Apr 24, 2016)

I can't imagine wanting to get rid of such a nice bridge. Boggles me mind.


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## rwoods (Apr 24, 2016)

madhatte said:


> I can't imagine wanting to get rid of such a nice bridge. Boggles me mind.



Same here. And shave a flat across the top for us shod without corks. Ron


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## 2dogs (Apr 24, 2016)

Hi Patti. It is nice to see you here again. We have some nice redwood logs in the river that fell last fall. 4' dbh and 3 more a little smaller. I would really like to get those trophies down to the Lucas mill but the law is the law. Oh well, the fish are happy.

Is Bob sending you any frozen fish?


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## HumboldtGilles (Apr 25, 2016)

Thank you for all the advice. SlowP, I'm actually a fisheries tech by profession, but have taken this farm job as it was convenient for the last year (fisheries work had me traveling a lot, wife and dogs sad). So yes, I divulged all the ecological impacts of removing that log and the benefits of leaving it, as she is old school and doesn't understand biological processes, she demands it gone. It is indeed a perennial stream and as far as I can tell no fish use it, electro-fishing it might be more conclusive hahaha. Ted Jenkins, I will go with your advice as we have plenty of chain rope laying around the barn, but as of now I won't ask her about the log cause she is slowly getting cenile and will hopefully just forget about it.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 25, 2016)

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> respectfully, I do not think this is the best way to do it. I think the best way to do it is to drag it off the bank, out of the water... and cut it with you 100% in control. cutting is where it is now is not you in 100% control...
> 
> 
> as is, can you say: *DANGER!*


Well that's good, like I said, we look at everything. Control our environment, recognize our limits,
and exercise our right to refuse unsafe work. If that's the best way for you and some others to be 100% safe then that's where you need to be. Saftey is everyone's responsibility. If what's pictured was the limit of difficulty to my job I would say my job wasn't very dangerous. A new bucker with a basic course on binds, bucking sequences and working from the 'highside' (safe side) would be competent at this level or maybe it's not for them?


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