# humbolt VS normal notch



## 056 kid (Feb 28, 2005)

What are the benefits of the humbolt notch? It seems that they are both as good. Some might say the log is saved because the notch is cut out of the stump, but if you want any control to the ground you are going to pull some wood out of the log from the hinge. The old-timer that taught me showed me what he called a hinge notch. We cut hardwood which gets fatter a fue inch from the ground. he would cut a very steep or even 90% notch only 2 or 3 inches into the tree, not wasting any wood. When the tree would fall, there would not be any tear from the hinge. That is the best that i have seen.


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## clearance (Feb 28, 2005)

Humbolt is for the loggers, they use it all the time. I use it when the tree is going to go on a truck. For the real money shot (has to go, no deviation at all) use the conventional undercut. Humbolt is hard to make if you arent used to it and easy to make a dutchman. Also nice to have a wrap handle. Sounds from what you have described as a hinge notch is not a safe cut. The undercut should really be 1/4 to 1/3of the way into the tree, and 1/2 on a snag. You are asking for the tree to chair.


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## Ryan Willock (Feb 28, 2005)

Loggers here on the east coast use the conventional notch almost entirely. I personally use a humbolt when I know that the tree is going to be harder to wedge because I feel that it makes wedgeing easier. If you know HOW to use it then its just like using a "normal notch" (keep in mind "normal notch" on the east coast would be a humbolt) in that you shouldn't get anymore stump pull.


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## glens (Feb 28, 2005)

The Humboldt can better act as a chock than the conventional if you're felling up-hill


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## HORSELOGGER (Feb 28, 2005)

I use the GOL technique- open face, plunge behind the hinge, leave a back strap or sometimes saw out. Some guys around here use a spur cut,- plunge in at ground level and empty out the guts , leaving the root spurs still attached, then start nipping at those till the tree goes. I have done this but dont like it... Real unsafe , tree goes wherever as there is no hinge to drive it. The veneer buyers love it as there is no cutting into the face of the log at all.


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## clearance (Feb 28, 2005)

Hard to believe a faller wouldnt use a humboldt, log isnt square at the butt, here people would say, what the f. is that? Please explain. Glens, you are right about it making the tree go, it cant come back like a conventional undercut tree can. But falling uphill is not good unless absolutely needed. Trees sometimes come sliding back down, after they come off the stump, falling them downhill or on an angle downhill is safer, besides they usually do lean a little downhill anyways. When you use a conventional undercut do you recut the butt to square it?


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## glens (Feb 28, 2005)

clearance said:


> When you use a conventional undercut do you recut the butt to square it?


If the logger doesn't, the mill does.


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## John Ellison (Mar 1, 2005)

As far as recovering the most log out of a tree, a humboldt is usually used on a tree with a lot of swell at the butt. The waste comes out of the stump. On a big tree a humboldt is easier than conv. because the (maybe several hundred lb.) face cut will fall out instead of you having to wrestle it out. 
In the parts of the country where the trees come out of the ground with no swell you would be wasting wood by using a humboldt. Your diagonal cut would be in the dirt or you would have to make a higher than necessary stump.
I'm talking softwood here, dont know about the hardwoodguys. I think they even cut below ground level.  

John


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## Ekka (Mar 2, 2005)

Well, although you're gonna hate it, it's what I do ... sometimes.

I use the Humboldt in domestic situations when felling palms or spars to ensure they fit in the yard.

I reach up as high as I can with the saw (err yes, above head height), make the horizontal cut, then make the diagonal cut from beneath ... hence the scarf is done. Then I do the back cut, as high as I can and preferably higher than the horizontal cut of the scarf (I know it's supposed to be above the horizontal cut but sometimes level is as good as it gets).

So, it's my way of squeezing that extra few inches out of the log to drop it in the yard.


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## clearance (Mar 2, 2005)

cool, I do it too but you admitted it. really wanted to send my old p.c. instructor a picture of me one-handing a 288 over my head


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 2, 2005)

clearance said:


> cool, I do it too but you admitted it. really wanted to send my old p.c. instructor a picture of me one-handing a 288 over my head




Not me!

http://www.*********************/treepics/22.JPG


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## clearance (Mar 2, 2005)

MB- that picture will send you to hell.


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## alanarbor (Mar 2, 2005)

Just looking at that makes my wrist and shoulder hurt.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 2, 2005)

That was all a photoshopped trick.

:angel:


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## alanarbor (Mar 2, 2005)

Hey kid, it sounds like you're talking about a variation on the open face notch, created by cutting into the trunk flare near the ground, is that right?


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## smokechaser (Mar 2, 2005)

Humboldt or conventional face affect the entire procedure the same. Humboldt (done correctly) can eliminate squaring the butt. Neither cut makes more or less pull wood from the center. That is a function of the trees soundness, and head weight/lean. Both are easy to Dutchman. Wedging is also just as easy with either face cut. Done incorrectly, wedging breaks more holding wood than anything else. More people lose trees due to improper wedging techniques and improper size up. 
Now I have only cut a few Eastern hardwoods and there probably is some functionally different traits to some of those trees that I may not understand. But the function of tree felling correctly/safely is still the same everywhere.


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2005)

Smoke-good post, you are correct about undercuts having no difference on falling. I guess I usually put a dutchman more in a humbolt because I dont use it much, unless its going to be a log. I think that most people lose trees cause they cut of too much holding wood on the off lean side. But I guess youd know better, do you guys domino that much firefighting?


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## glens (Mar 3, 2005)

In purely theoretical terms, the Humboldt <i>would</i> tend to go over-center quicker (all else being equal) because it's still carrying the weight of the wood, which gets removed in the "conventional" method, on the far side of the hinge.

<tt>:</tt><tt>)</tt>


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## smokechaser (Mar 3, 2005)

Do you mean facing the tree then partially backcuting? No. That is not the safest felling procedure cause you have less control over the final lay. I've done it before, but only cause the tree that I was driving was unsafe to cut as it stood by itself, and we had to get people in under it to work some hot spots. We have some pretty strict S.O.P.'s that restrict us from getting too sporty. I cant speak for all agency fallers but most of us take our responsibility serious cause the agency will not back us for operations that fall outside guidelines. We have different certification levels for different saw operators. I have to re cert employees every year to make sure their skill is adequate for the level of their card.


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2005)

Smoke-no I didnt mean partially backcutting. When I say domino, I mean domino falling, that is pushing over a tree (or trees) with another tree. Like if you put an undercut and buckcut&wedge in one tree (or trees) that is not leaning favorably and then you hammer it with another tree that is easy to fall. In B.C. I think you are only allowed to push one tree with another. There have been fatality investigations that revealed a faller had cut up over a couple of dozen trees, intending to push them with one, hence domino. But one of the trees got him. Just wondered what you guys do when the pressures on.


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## smokechaser (Mar 3, 2005)

Sorry incomplete description on my part. 
We are not supposed to drive trees down with other trees. One reason I choose not to is to the jack strawed mess that you left with takes more time to limb and buck if your going into that operation next. Besides if you miss or worse, hang one up in the other tree, chunking down a hanger is a pain in the rear.


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## Old Monkey (Mar 6, 2005)

I learned to fall big trees (got my "C" cert) on the Entiat hotshots up in North Central WA. We used argue about the difference between humboldt cuts and standard cuts. They said the humboldt cut makes the tree go down "harder" and is better if you are trying to get the tree down through a thick canopy. I thought that was BS. Do you guys have an opinion on that? Now that I do treeservice work I only use Humboldts occasionally; if the wood is going to be milled, if it's on the downhill side on a steep slope where the standard would impractical, if I'm trying to fall it uphill and want it to secure itself on the stump(I am aware that this is a dangerous practice), or if it is so large that the wedge is going to be a pain to remove. I think that a Humboldt is much more exacting. The backcut and the face have to be real even or things don't work out well. I had to do multiple humboldts on eucs one time with a 3120, my arms hung limply at my side after that day.


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## clearance (Mar 7, 2005)

Old Monkey- your closing line is from an old stones song right? Anyways interesting talk here about undercuts. I think that if you use a humboldt the tree is really gone when it falls, no coming back. Whether or not it makes the tree go harder,I don't know, but a shallow undercut makes it jump off the stump, causing it to smash through standing timber better (scary, with all the sh#t that goes flying).Like you said about making the undercuts line up, it can be quite difficult especially if you have to two side it. The humboldt is just a upside down conventional undercut, the more you do it the easier it is. Back in the old days, before powersaws, they never used a humboldt, worked for them. Humboldts the best undercut because you don't have to trim the butt and the undercut falls on the ground, if your logging that is.


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## Old Monkey (Mar 7, 2005)

clearance said:


> Old Monkey- your closing line is from an old stones song right?



You got it. It's off of the "Let It Bleed" album. I thought it fit because of all the drug abusing groundies and climbers I've worked with over the years. Nothing like three or four pot breaks during the day to make a climbing job go smoothly! If the job is still not in the can by four o'clock then out come the Redbulls. Sometimes I think I can see their hearts bursting in their chests. :blob5:


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## John Ellison (Mar 7, 2005)

A humboldt is no guarantee against coming back off the stump when falling thru standing timber. It can still happen, but I agree it is less likely to than with a conv. face. To save explaining later,we all no that it is dangerous to fall a tree thru standing timber but sometimes it has to be done so you plan accordingly.
Again, I dont know about hardwood but a conventional notch does not have to be trimmed off of a softwood sawlog, unless there is some kind of defect or if it was one of those wide open-open faced notches where a big part of the sawable log is gone.

John


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## swampwhiteoak (Mar 7, 2005)

There's no reason a notch would need to be trimmed off on a hardwood sawlog. That portion will be slabbed off anyway, unless you are making ridiculously deep notches.


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