# Smoking



## Climb020 (Jun 14, 2006)

I have noticed while reading many of the threads on many of sites that smokers are getting it stuck to them. I have noticed some tree companies have a no smoking policy while on the customers property. I would hate, as a smoker for the no smoking rule to be implemented in even more companies. 
Yes I understand that it is usually the smokers fault in the first place that the rules are implemented. It makes the job site unsightly to the customer seeing cigarette butts all over their lawn. Just asking the smokers to smoke responsibly and help stop the infringement of smokers rights. 
And I also understand that time may be wasted during the job due to smoking and this could be stopped as well if we just think for a second. 

Here are some general rules I have came up with:
1) Don't take cigarette brakes. We work out side, find the right time to smoke while working.
2) Put the cigarette butts either in with the wood chips if they are going to a recycling center, or in the garbage, or an ashtray. If you cannot find any of these things put them in your pocket until you do.
3) Avoid smoking around the customer at all times. They may see you smoking but just don't approach them while doing it.

Right times to smoke:
1) On way to job site.
2) During the walk through of the job site, after introducing yourself to the homeowner.
3) On your lunch brake or your 15 min. brake.
4) While dragging brush. Almost everyone on the job site drags brush either at one time or another. Smoke while walking back to the area of brush.

Wrong times to smoke:
:bang: 1) While operating a chainsaw. Two hands on the saw. If the butt is in your mouth the smoke will burn your eyes and mess up your vision. Need to see what you are cutting.
2) While climbing unless while in the tree for long periods of time (3 hours plus) and a normal break would be taken for about 5 minutes to collect yourself and have a drink.
:bang: 3) When fueling anything, including chainsaws.
3) When there are rules do to religious beliefs and such that do not allow smoking. The time and place, if any, should be talked about with the client.


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## Jumper (Jun 14, 2006)

I'd argue the wrong time to smoke is anytime in one's life. There is no right time.

As for smoking on the way to the job site, that is now illegal in company vehicles here(because they are a workplace), and what about the non smoker who has to inhale the second hand carcinogens in a vehicle cab.

Smoking as you walk through.....the habit is perceived as low class, so if you want to contribute to the widely misconceived perception that tree service personnel are a bunch of neandrithals, OK fine by me....

You want to smoke-in the street, not on the customer's property.

There are a precious few places left where it is socially acceptable left to smoke- in your own home, or that of someone else that does not give a d*mn about their health, on your own property, or in your privately owned vehicle. Or on the street. Otherwise, not on.

Not the answer you wanted I am sure.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 14, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> Yes I understand that it is usually the smokers fault in the first place that the rules are implemented.



I'm glad you recognize that. But from your further comments, I see that you don't understand the issue from a non-smoker's point of view. Read on:




Climb020 said:


> It makes the job site unsightly to the customer seeing cigarette butts all over their lawn.



Yes, and worse, there is the small matter of the SMOKE. Are you hearing me? It's not just about the BUTTS, it's about the SMOKE. For some people, it's jsut a matter of not liking it. For some people (like asthmatics), it's a serious health threat. Yes, I know you're outside. It's still a problem.



Climb020 said:


> Just asking the smokers to smoke responsibly and help stop the infringement of smokers rights.



You don't have a right to inflict your habit on other people. Until you can keep your smoke, ashes, and butts to yourself, don't talk about your rights.



Climb020 said:


> 2) Put the cigarette butts either in with the wood chips if they are going to a recycling center



Wrong answer. If I go get chips from a recycling center, I sure don't want cigarette butts in them. It's NOT acceptable to have cigarette butts on my property - why should I have to pick them out of woodchips that are being spread around my property? What gives you the right to pollute the wood chips? Would you dump used motor oil in them?



Climb020 said:


> or in the garbage




Whose? Yours? Fine. I don't want them in MINE.




Climb020 said:


> If you cannot find any of these things put them in your pocket until you do.



VERY good!



Climb020 said:


> 3) Avoid smoking around the customer at all times. They may see you smoking but just don't approach them while doing it.




Nope. Not only don't approach them, don't smoke AT ALL while on their job unless you have asked FIRST.



Climb020 said:


> Right times to smoke:
> 1) On way to job site.
> 2) During the walk through of the job site, after introducing yourself to the homeowner.
> 3) On your lunch brake or your 15 min. brake.
> 4) While dragging brush. Almost everyone on the job site drags brush either at one time or another. Smoke while walking back to the area of brush.



Nope. VERY wrong. VERY bad. See above. Don't smoke AT ALL unless you have permission.



Climb020 said:


> Wrong times to smoke:




See above. Anytime, anywhere on a job, is the wrong time and wrong place unless you have FIRST asked permission. (BTW, you don't get the cigarette out, stick it in your mouth, and bring out your lighter before asking permission.)



Climb020 said:


> The time and place, if any, should be talked about with the client.



That's it.


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## Jumper (Jun 14, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Yes, and worse, there is the small matter of the SMOKE. Are you hearing me? It's not just about the BUTTS, it's about the SMOKE. For some people, it's jsut a matter of not liking it. For some people (like asthmatics), it's a serious health threat. Yes, I know you're outside. It's still a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> :



It is not a serious health threat for "some", it is for all. Ask Heather Crowe, who died recently from lung cancer though she never smoked a day in her life, which ended last month too soon.

Yes folks I smoked until 1979, and to be honest if you came to my house and wanted to smoke inside, I do own ashtrays. I would be a good host, and not force you onto the porch. Otherwise a low clash filthy habit that infringes greatly upon the rights of the majority who do not smoke.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/23/crowe-mon.html


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## spacemule (Jun 14, 2006)

It's pretty sad when a person can't make it through work hours without smoking. Seems to me this should be a matter of great embarrassment.


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## frashdog (Jun 14, 2006)

Cigs, sodas, dip, or even chewing gum even can be a bit annoying to others if done in an annoying, cumpulsive or addictive behavior. 

I agree it does not look good working with one. 

Growing up around smokers, mom and sister, then paying attention to others who smoke, I kinda see it as a security and weakness. I'm sure it calms the nerves, but it also signals you might me rattled. I could get mom and sis to light up on behavioral command. There are some people with wicked intense jobs that can't smoke, they get by. This is of course from a nonsmoker so...


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## clearance (Jun 14, 2006)

I remember spacing (thinning) during fire season, my boss said to the whole crew in a loud voice "anyone caught smoking is down the f-------- road, anyone" I almost feel sorry for smokers now, they are, by definition, drug addicts, a cigarette hanging from thier mouths like some addicts have needles hanging from thier arms. You can quit 020, people have done it, I stopped using alcohol and other fun stuff for over 10 years now, one day at a time, best wishes.


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## Treeman67 (Jun 14, 2006)

*any resposible smoker had a right to smoke..*

maybe some of you think it's inapportiated to smoke any place , any time. but still think it wrong for anyone to judge individual that does smoke when nonsmoker walk in wrong time and wrong place. i do smoke and i had had respected most ppl that doesn't smoke and i intended to smoke where they are not present. In fact company no smoking policy is kinda ridulous becuz there are good worker that does smokes and are responible for there behavior habits and i don't think it was sign of security or weakness, just a addiction of one each of you have some addiction personality alike coffee, soda,chewing tabaccos and FOOD.
in years i been in tree service, there not a single one of customer ever complained about smoker worker does smoke whatever they had time for smoke breaks, except we left some water bottle or soda bottle on there property after it done, which they do not like to pick up our trash (oops) 0:X
Anyway instead of nonsmoking rule or policy, be kind and say hey i don't mind if you smoke but please refrained smoking if you can and if you do smoke.. go there . i'm sure it will make everyone happy and smoke responible also you may be lucky that smoker quit smoking sooner or later

Take care of each others and be safe
Treeman67


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## buzz sawyer (Jun 14, 2006)

Climb020 - I admire your attempt at consideration for property owners. Some of your post brought back some memories. 

Wrong times to smoke:
1) While operating a chainsaw. Two hands on the saw. If the butt is in your mouth the smoke will burn your eyes and mess up your vision. Need to see what you are cutting.

I can still see my dad with a smoke in his mouth running a saw while coughing and squinting. After about 50 years of smoking 2-3 packs a day, he quit. He actually got to the point where he could not stand to go to meetings where people smoked. He apologized to me, my sister, and four brothers for making us grow up with it. I will never forget the sound of him coughing at night. A shame to have to remember that part of him. He was not only a powerful man, he engineered some amazing tree removal jobs. A shame we didn't think to take pictures back then. By the way, at 70 they took the top of his left lung out. Hated to see him suffer through that.

First time I've seen a smoker admit it burns their eyes - is that why they hold the cigarettes away from them when not inhaling? Second hand smoke is a misnomer. Non-smokers get it first hand from the burning end without the benefit(?) of the filter. Most of the cigarette just goes up in smoke without being inhaled - watch a smoker closely sometime. 

Climb020, I hope one day you can muster the willpower to quit. You sound like a good person and the world needs more of them.


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## Vman (Jun 14, 2006)

*trivia........Dean Martin.....*

how many of you remember Dean Martin??
always drunk on his show....NOPE!!!
drunk was his gig and everyone bought it. in his glass he would have ginger-ale or apple juice....now his red-glassy eyes; before coming out on stage, he would light up 5-6 cigarettes, put them in an ashtray, and lean over and put his face in the ashtray while holding his eyes wide open and let the smoke burn up his eyes to get that convincing red-glassy-eyed drunk appearance.

a lil off track of the thread, but some trivia

and yes.....i would love to quit smoking myself, but i hate it when non-smokers piss and moan. taxes that smokers pay, pay alot of funds that are also benefitted by non-smokers....with out smokers, our already high taxes would be much higher. 
the U. S. of A. originally built itself up with tobacco products in the 1700's not to mention liquor....both are now considered evils.

i am a nurse....i smoke before my shift and make sure i do not smell of smoke before beginning...i save a full cup of coffee to kill my breath before going in and do not smoke till my shift is over for the day. i do not smoke in my house or anyone else's house...i always go outside and walk out to the street when at someone else's home..i do respect other people's rights.


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## frashdog (Jun 14, 2006)

> i don't think it was sign of security or weakness, just a addiction


isn't an addiction a weakness? If some one can say they can do with out it's not an addiction or weakness.


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## Vman (Jun 14, 2006)

frashdog said:


> isn't an addiction a weakness?


NOPE!! addictions are physiological and a "weakness" is mental.
smokers bodies are addicted to the chemicals and chemical by-products of cigarettes. many who successfully quit smoking do so by using other chemicals to wean down the chemicals over time that the body can handle

a good example is a serious alcoholic....going "cold turkey" can kill some people cause their bodies cannot handle the drastic physiological and metabolic change......the people need "drugs" (to put it lightly) to accomodate the bodies needs to wean the transition.

as with both alcoholics and smokers, there is also the "mental weakness" that may or may not go away with time...though the "addicton" or "breaking the addiction" is fought by the physiological body.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 14, 2006)

Vman said:


> i am a nurse....i smoke before my shift and make sure i do not smell of smoke before beginning...



No you don't. Not unless you shower (including shampooing your hair) and put on freshly laundered clothes AFTER your last smoke. (I mean, FRESHLY laundered. If those clothes went from the laundry and into your closet before you put them on, they WILL smell of cigarette.) 

If you didn't do ALL of this you still reek of the foul smell of cigarette, even if YOU can't smell it.


And you inflict that on sick people!


And YOU are one of the more considerate smokers. Most just light up whenever, wherever.


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## clearance (Jun 14, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> No you don't. Not unless you shower (including shampooing your hair) and put on freshly laundered clothes AFTER your last smoke. (I mean, FRESHLY laundered. If those clothes went from the laundry and into your closet before you put them on, they WILL smell of cigarette.)
> 
> If you didn't do ALL of this you still reek of the foul smell of cigarette, even if YOU can't smell it.
> 
> ...


Take it easy Mark, you old drug sniffing dog you. I don't smoke, but think about this. What if after work I smell of saw gas and oil, the bush fragrance. Then I walk into a store or restaurant before I drive home to have a shower, cause I'm tired or whatever, "Ewww, you smell like gas or something, ewww" Gas fumes are carcinogenic I believe, big deal. What if you forget your speedstick (on the days you actually physically work), not smoking is good enough, stop the jihad.


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## frashdog (Jun 14, 2006)

> NOPE!! addictions are physiological and a "weakness" is mental.


WRONG!!! well kinda , yes it can be physiological it also can be psychological.


> In all cases, the term addiction describes a chronic pattern of behavior that continues despite the direct or indirect adverse consequences that result from engaging in the behavior. It is quite common for an addict to express the desire to stop the behavior, but find himself or herself unable to cease.


Check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction


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## Vman (Jun 15, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark......as i stated in my earlier post i do not smoke in my home, i should have also mentioned i do not smoke in my vehicles (though i did not feel the need to do so at that time) cause i choose not to expose my daughter to the repercussions of "2nd hand smoke"......yes even if u do not smoke in a vehicle while someone is in there, the chemical by-products are still there if u do smoke in the vehicle and they can be picked up merely by contact.....this goes for anything, not just vehicles (Ha!! there is more fuel for non-smokers!!)......so as i do it is best for a smoker to wash their hands after a smoke if u smoke outside your house when u go back in your home. i should have also mentioned from my morning shower, i put my scubs on, enjoy my last cup of coffee on my way to work which is 10 mins away....and do not smoke on my way there. it is the best i can do, i hope it is satisfactory to you.

frashdog.....my info comes from my medical books, experiences, and teachings, not an internet site (which after reading it i do not see where i am wrong with the many mentions of politically correct controversy to correct use of terms, in my job we do not use the term "addiction" to associate with weaknesses, habitual forming tendencies, and psychological disorders) which boldly hails the disclaimer of:

"This article or section does not cite its references or sources.
You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations.Some of the information in this article or section has not been verified and might not be reliable. It should be checked for inaccuracies and modified as needed, citing sources."

....i would also like to add the fact of how many people diagnose themselves from reading the internet, than attempt to treat themselves via internet Rx medication sites that anyone can order prescription drugs from, than wind up in the ER, Hospital, Urgent Care Centers, or 6 ft. under.
in any event i shall stick with the training and education i recieved. i am done with this thread and will leave it by saying if u get ill, go to your Doc, not the Net.....i have to deal everyday with patients that "know it all" and wind up at the facility i work for, so i have no need to deal with it here.
enough said


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## Jumper (Jun 15, 2006)

i am a nurse....i smoke before my shift and make sure i do not smell of smoke before beginning...i save a full cup of coffee to kill my breath before going in and do not smoke till my shift is over for the day. i do not smoke in my house or anyone else's house...i always go outside and walk out to the street when at someone else's home..i do respect other people's rights.[/QUOTE said:


> I would have thought being a health care professional and smoking would be incompatible these days. Do you not see the results of long term smoking on your job?? (perhaps not depending upon your expertice). Not only in health care, but in other professions, smoking is seen as a negative trait in prospective employees-they are less healthy, are sick more often, and output is compromised because they lose up to 15 minutes of every hour filling their lungs with filth. I have had job interviews where I was asked if I smoked!!!! And I am sure screening drug tests so common these days also indicate the presence of nicotene in the blood. I agree with Mark, your clothing, hair, skin smell of smoke regardless of where you last inhaled. I do not hate smokers, they are to be pitied almost. As for taxes, the revenue generated by cigarette excise taxes is completely eaten away by increased medical expenses looking after all those cancer, cardiac, stroke and lung patients whose condition is a direct result of their addiction.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jun 15, 2006)

I smoke. Call it an addiction, a habit, whatever. One thing it is not is a weakness. I still run and work out and climb like a maniac.

I am very discreet, a ''considerate smoker'' if you will. I don't smoke at work but if I'm having a few beers on my own time I smoke. Peolpe who have known me for years are surprised to learn that I smoke because I keep it to myself.

What I don't get is all you anti-smoking nazis making such a big deal of it. If you don't smoke fine, if someone elses smoking bothers you tell them, or ask them to stop. End-of-story.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

Vman said:


> BlueRidgeMark......as i stated in my earlier post i do not smoke in my home, i should have also mentioned i do not smoke in my vehicles ... i should have also mentioned from my morning shower, i put my scubs on, enjoy my last cup of coffee on my way to work which is 10 mins away....and do not smoke on my way there. it is the best i can do, i hope it is satisfactory to you.




You are an unusually aware and considerate smoker! 




Vman said:


> frashdog.....my info comes from my medical books, experiences, and teachings, not an internet site (which after reading it i do not see where i am wrong with the many mentions of politically correct controversy to correct use of terms, in my job we do not use the term "addiction" to associate with weaknesses, habitual forming tendencies, and psychological disorders) which boldly hails the disclaimer of:
> 
> "This article or section does not cite its references or sources.
> You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations.Some of the information in this article or section has not been verified and might not be reliable. It should be checked for inaccuracies and modified as needed, citing sources."




Wikipedia is trash. Anybody can get on there and post anything they want with little or no expertise. Many subjects are 'controlled' by a few (or one) rabid power hungry self-appointed 'experts' who have an agenda of one sort or another. Do some editing to correct errors and you'll come back and find your edits GONE. The entire philosopy behind it is socialistic hippie crap.

One of the founders left when he saw what it was becoming. He realized that the whole idea was flawed and could not be fixed. (IOW, he grew up.) He attempted to persuade his co-founder of this with reasoned and logical arguments supported by examples from the site. The response (from the guy who now runs it)? 

"You just don't get it."


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## clearance (Jun 15, 2006)

Jumper said:


> I would have thought being a health care professional and smoking would be incompatible these days.


After spending time in and around hospitals due to being injured or visiting others there I am no longer suprised to see health care workers smoking. Or the large percentage of them who are large, morbidly obese in some cases. I suppose seeing death on a daily basis has little effect. Mark, you have pretty strong opinions on Wikipedia, look up arborist on it, Arboristsite is a link there, can't speak to other entries but the one about arborist is pretty tame.


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## spacemule (Jun 15, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> I smoke. Call it an addiction, a habit, whatever. One thing it is not is a weakness. I still run and work out and climb like a maniac.
> 
> I am very discreet, a ''considerate smoker'' if you will. I don't smoke at work but if I'm having a few beers on my own time I smoke. Peolpe who have known me for years are surprised to learn that I smoke because I keep it to myself.
> 
> What I don't get is all you anti-smoking nazis making such a big deal of it. If you don't smoke fine, if someone elses smoking bothers you tell them, or ask them to stop. End-of-story.


You're an exception, Boston. Sure, smoking does not have to be a weakness, just like anything that can be done in moderation. It's only for the folks who can't control themselves that smoking becomes a weakness. If a person is constantly thinking about and craving his next fix, I can see it as nothing but a weakness.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

clearance said:


> After spending time in and around hospitals due to being injured or visiting others there I am no longer suprised to see health care workers smoking. Or the large percentage of them who are large, morbidly obese in some cases. I suppose seeing death on a daily basis has little effect.



Yes, it's a strange thing. You see the same thing in the funeral business - gallows humor and a profound desensitization to death.





clearance said:


> Mark, you have pretty strong opinions on Wikipedia, look up arborist on it, Arboristsite is a link there, can't speak to other entries but the one about arborist is pretty tame.



Many are quite good. It all depends on the contributors. _*And that's the point. *_ There are no quality checks. Not to derail this thread, but I know of more than one bona fide experts in their fiedl who have attempted to correct gross errors, only to have the corrections deleted and themselves attacked by anonymous self appointed kings of that particular subject, who reveal by their contributions that they are rank amatuers, probably very young, who don't know what they are doing at all.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> What I don't get is all you anti-smoking nazis making such a big deal of it. If you don't smoke fine, if someone elses smoking bothers you tell them, or ask them to stop. End-of-story.



I wish it were the end of the story. It's not that simple. First of all, by the time I ask someone to stop, damage has already been done. The stench of cigarette is ALREADY in my nostrils, my hair, my clothes, and sometimes, my car or house. My asthmatic son has already had his day, and probably his night, ruined by an asthma attack that didn't need to happen.

Can you give me any reason why I should have to put up with that? Can you tell me why I should have to run a guantlet of cigarette smoke just to enter or exit a hospital or office building? (As I've often had to do.) Can you tell me why I should have to have foul odors polluting my meal and beverages in a restaraunt?

Smoking isn't like watching old soap opera re-runs. Disgusting as that may be, it's not a habit that intrudes on others. Smoking is very different. It's a habit that by its very nature is imposed on everyone around.




Also, very often, asking is useless. They simply will not. Asking may even precipitate a fight.


Now what?


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## OTG BOSTON (Jun 15, 2006)

The stench of cigarette is ALREADY in my nostrils, my hair, my clothes, and sometimes, my car or house.

Not altogether different from someone with a beat up truck that is burning oil and stinking up my entire neighborhood [

Can you give me any reason why I should have to put up with that? Can you tell me why I should have to run a guantlet of cigarette smoke just to enter or exit a hospital or office building? 

see above 

Can you tell me why I should have to have foul odors polluting my meal and beverages in a restaraunt?

we don't have that problem in Boston. (smoking ban)

Smoking isn't like watching old soap opera re-runs. Disgusting as that may be, it's not a habit that intrudes on others. Smoking is very different. It's a habit that by its very nature is imposed on everyone around.
there are worse habits


Also, very often, asking is useless. They simply will not. Asking may even precipitate a fight.

good cardio workout

Now what?[/QUOTE]

live and let live. We are in the United States still, right?


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## moss (Jun 15, 2006)

The holier than thou and purist positions on the issue are potentially more irritating than second-hand smoke 

It seems that smoking is not uncommon among treeworkers, kudos to Climber020 for honestly raising the issue.

I'm not a smoker but sometimes I borrow some loose tobacco from my wife for when I'm out in the woods. When mosquitos get really bad I roll one and create a nice cloud of smoke, mosquitos hate it. Tobacco smoke smells sweet in the woods, much better than it does in a house.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jun 15, 2006)

amen


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## spacemule (Jun 15, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> The stench of cigarette is ALREADY in my nostrils, my hair, my clothes, and sometimes, my car or house.
> 
> Not altogether different from someone with a beat up truck that is burning oil and stinking up my entire neighborhood


Now you're catching on. Not much different from farting at point blank range in a person's face, either.


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## frashdog (Jun 15, 2006)

> frashdog.....my info comes from my medical books, experiences, and teachings, not an internet site (which after reading it i do not see where i am wrong with the many mentions of politically correct controversy to correct use of terms, in my job we do not use the term "addiction" to associate with weaknesses, habitual forming tendencies, and psychological disorders) which boldly hails the disclaimer of:
> 
> "This article or section does not cite its references or sources.
> You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations.Some of the information in this article or section has not been verified and might not be reliable. It should be checked for inaccuracies and modified as needed, citing sources."
> ...


ok ,you're not wrong. 

I still see some one who needs to smoke as having a weakness. Like soda, coffee, gum, beer, sex, lotto tickets or whatever. I have a weakness for coffee, I feel like I'm addicted. If I do not get my fix I'm not 110% ready to work. Can truely addicted smokers be just fine suddenly going with out, there in lies my reasoning for it being a weakness. I'm not saying smokers can't work, I see amazing shape people who smoke who can keep up just fine, so long as they got their smokes.


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## spacemule (Jun 15, 2006)

frashdog said:


> ok ,you're not wrong.
> 
> I still see some one who needs to smoke as having a weakness. Like soda, coffee, gum, beer, sex, lotto tickets or whatever. I have a weakness for coffee, I feel like I'm addicted. If I do not get my fix I'm not 110% ready to work. Can truely addicted smokers be just fine suddenly going with out, there in lies my reasoning for it being a weakness. I'm not saying smokers can't work, I see amazing shape people who smoke who can keep up just fine, so long as they got their smokes.


I've rarely seen it, but I have seen smokers who do not have a smoking weakness. One of my best friends smoked, but it would take her two months to go through a pack. She could as easily go without as with--she only smoked during highly stressful times. In my experience though, it's 1 in 100 or less that smoke this way.


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## moss (Jun 15, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I let a guy go for smoking a few months ago. Every time we were in a vehicle he chain smoked the whole time.
> 
> I told him no smoking in the vehicle, that I can't stand it. He said he was going to quit working for me if he couldn't smoke in the vehicle. I asked him if he wanted to go back to the shop now or wait until the day was done. He worked the rest of the day and I paid him off that evening.
> 
> ...



Sounds like there were other issues between you and your worker. That's a bit hair-trigger to say I quit if I can't blow smoke in your face. Straw that broke the camel's back?


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## Ekka (Jun 15, 2006)

If you have a good worker who is a smoker ... then it's possible to have an even greater worker who is a non-smoker.

No smoking in my vehicles. And how many times do you see smokers with a fag hanging out of their gob whilst they're sawing, fueling, dragging etc ... all the time, regardless of what you say.

The thing I have noticed about a lot of smokers is they treat the rest of the world like their ashtray.

The total taxes raised from tobacco sales in Australia is in the $7billion region. The total health cost associated with medical care for smokers is in the $10 billion region. 

Smokers are not paying their way.

Slowly the "right" to smoke in public is going. No smoking on our beaches, pubs, restuarants, malls, playgrounds, sporting events etc.

Wait till you have little kids and they see this filthy habit, it aint that easy to explain what's going on. We just tell them that cigarettes are poison and those people are killing themselves but dont care for their life. 

Cigarettes are not a relaxant, that's another falacy. Nicotine increases your metabalism by around 20% ... hence smokers are usually thinner. It increases your heartbeat, shortens your breath and lung capacity ... if you think you are relaxed when smoking your are another fool of advertising or conned by wives tales. Do not confuse relaxation with relief of a nicotine craving.

Smokers beware, your days are numbered and rightfully so. You are a worse worker, higher health and absenteeism risk than a non smoker. *If you think you're good at your job now, wait till you dont smoke, you'll be a legend.*


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## stranger217 (Jun 15, 2006)

I usually only use this site to gather Info and learn new things, but this time I *Have* to reply!!! I see a lot off people spewing about someone else's habit, what about your monster? Every man has one that must be fed , and if you say you don't your only lieing to yourself!
I do admit I do have an addiction which up till now I have been unable to break.(I have been trying) I have not been trying for YOU or Yours and my reasons are purely my own. If I shhould decide to continue to smoke who are you to tell me otherwise!!!! If you don't like it move away from ME!!!! I have traveled all over the world and visited multiple combat zones so that you and people like you Have the right to push to limit my rights!!!!! Let me know where that makes sense!!!!!!!!:angry2:


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## spacemule (Jun 15, 2006)

stranger217 said:


> I usually only use this site to gather Info and learn new things, but this time I *Have* to reply!!! I see a lot off people spewing about someone else's habit, what about your monster? Every man has one that must be fed , and if you say you don't your only lieing to yourself!
> I do admit I do have an addiction which up till now I have been unable to break.(I have been trying) I have not been trying for YOU or Yours and my reasons are purely my own. If I shhould decide to continue to smoke who are you to tell me otherwise!!!! If you don't like it move away from ME!!!! I have traveled all over the world and visited multiple combat zones so that you and people like you Have the right to push to limit my rights!!!!! Let me know where that makes sense!!!!!!!!:angry2:


Smoking is not a right. Breathing clean air in public is.


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## Climb020 (Jun 15, 2006)

I had created this list in hopes of employers adopting something like it as opposed to none smoking. Every employer is different and if they say no smoking in the truck fine I don't. They paid for it and I should respect that. You would get pissed if someone throw your brand new climbing rope in the mud after you told them to not get it dirty.

If you are a non-smoking nazi I personally can give a rats @ss about what you think. You are not opened minded to see both sides of the picture. 
Yes I understand there are heath issues for some. I have family like this and we don't smoke in the house when they are there or before they come.

Now if and only if you have an open mind lets get back to what I was try to prove in the first place. Would employers be will to adopt similiar rules as opposed to a smoking ban. 

We all do things everyday that are a HEALTH RISK to someone else. SO do you damn NAZI's ride your bike to work or walk? NO. Why? Because you know you can't fill your pockets with wood chips and am not gonna loads up your Huffy with saws and ropes and all. OK here is another. Do you cut anything with a chainsaw and the sawdust lands on the ground. YES. You are polluting the soil with oil. Do you use 100% bio-degradible products? NO. So to think about the KIDS now you are polluting the lands fills all over the world with your plastics and foam that will never break down and you will only leave a dirtier world when you leave for them to try to clean up.

OK now lets see......employers think smoking makes there employees look less professional, right? Well this is a profession and we can concider ourselves professionals but I know I don't and I am sure no one else wheres a suit and tie to work everyday to look professional. I would consider tree work to be a sort of trade skill. In these type of jobs there is more of a layed back style of working. I am sure someone on here has to agree with me on this or at least see what I am trying to say here.

Please everyone just think for a second. I think I posted the same line in my original post. I am just trying to make a better company image will still keeping in mind the life style of workers. As well I am trying to keep job production up so people cannot complain that smokers are slackers.


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## Climb020 (Jun 15, 2006)

Forgot to mentions about the people that do tree work that are worried about there heath. This is just a news flash in case you didn't know. This is a dangerous job and poeple die and get injured on a regular basis. So if you are that concerned with you wealth over all you may like to think of a different profession. Smoking kills you slowly...but god forbid it happens at work it will be anything but slow.
Also I don't wish to offend anyone that has or knows someone that has been injured or killed in this line of work.


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## spacemule (Jun 15, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> Do you cut anything with a chainsaw and the sawdust lands on the ground. YES. You are polluting the soil with oil.


Would you cut wood in someone's freshly tilled garden, and pile the sawdust all over thier flowers? And, even this is not comparable. Cutting wood has a legitimate reason. Number one is the customer is paying you to do so. 

I don't have a problem with people who want to smoke, as long as they do it on their own time on their own property. If they weigh the value of a nicotine fix against a slow, painful death and want the nicotine, that's their business. I'm not one to make quantity over quality decisions for anyone. However, if they litter the ground with their butts and insist on polluting my lungs, I do have a problem with it.


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## Climb020 (Jun 15, 2006)

spacemule said:


> Would you cut wood in someone's freshly tilled garden, and pile the sawdust all over thier flowers? And, even this is not comparable. Cutting wood has a legitimate reason. Number one is the customer is paying you to do so.



Yes they are paying you to cut the wood not destroy their property. Use a tarp or some kind of plastic cover. I just mentioned this to fuel the fire but I have been asked to not get saw dust on the grass and had to put down a tarp and I am sure I am not the only one.


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## spacemule (Jun 15, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> Yes they are paying you to cut the wood not destroy their property. Use a tarp or some kind of plastic cover. I just mentioned this to fuel the fire but I have been asked to not get saw dust on the grass and had to put down a tarp and I am sure I am not the only one.


Isn't limiting smoking to your own time similar to putting a tarp down for the customer?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

stranger217 said:


> I usually only use this site to gather Info and learn new things, but this time I *Have* to reply!!! I see a lot off people spewing about someone else's habit, what about your monster?




What's that got to do with THIS subject?

Answer: Nothing. It's a way of avoiding the issue.




stranger217 said:


> Have the right to push to limit my rights!!!!! Let me know where that makes sense!!!!!!!!:angry2:



Your right to smoke ends at my nose. Simple as that. When you can keep it to yourself, you have the right to do it. Live on a large property so that your smoke doesn't bother anyone else? Have at it - you have the right to do that.

You do NOT have the right to pollute anyone else's air. Breathing is not optional. Smoking is.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

moss said:


> Sounds like there were other issues between you and your worker. That's a bit hair-trigger to say I quit if I can't blow smoke in your face. Straw that broke the camel's back?





Just look at some of the responses in this thread. Some smokers, after years of shoving their filthy habit down everyone else's windpipe and getting away with it, are very angry that the tables are finally turning.

Why, some of them are even so insane as to think they have the RIGHT to do so!


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## clearance (Jun 15, 2006)

020, I can handle what you say, enough of the pc bs from you puritans, the guy is ok. Marijauna use is very common here, more people smoke pot than cigarettes, cops just take it away, it ain't no big deal here. So, because pot smells a lot better than cigarettes and is much less carcinogenic, is it ok to smoke pot around people? (Mark, don't say you'd call the cops cause they would laugh at you) I am coming from a harm perspective, I don't drink or use illegal drugs but I figure wtf, as long as its green who cares, the white stuff is where I draw the line.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I don't believe a lot of smokers know just how bad second hand smoke smells.




No, they don't. But they accuse US of not being willing to see the other side of it.


I'd rather smell skunk, myself. Seriously.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 15, 2006)

clearance said:


> . So, because pot smells a lot better than cigarettes and is much less carcinogenic, is it ok to smoke pot around people?




It's not okay to smoke ANYTHING around other people unless:


You can keep it entirely to yourself, OR,
You have permission.


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## Climb020 (Jun 15, 2006)

Mark I can only assume by not responding directly to my post that the cat must have got your tongue. If you don't pollute the air in anyway you are liar. Just plan and simple I have the choice to smoke as well as you have the choice to drive, cut your grass or use anything that runs on fuel. So according to you you are no better than myself.


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## foodforests (Jun 15, 2006)

Uh, two wrongs don't make a right, Climb020. 
To quote that legend of the silver screen, Yuel Brenner,
"Just don't smoke".


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## avalontree (Jun 15, 2006)

frashdog said:


> Cigs, sodas, dip, or even chewing gum even can be a bit annoying to others if done in an annoying, cumpulsive or addictive behavior.
> 
> I agree it does not look good working with one.
> 
> Growing up around smokers, mom and sister, then paying attention to others who smoke, I kinda see it as a security and weakness. I'm sure it calms the nerves, but it also signals you might me rattled. I could get mom and sis to light up on behavioral command. There are some people with wicked intense jobs that can't smoke, they get by. This is of course from a nonsmoker so...



I hear ya. Ive seen people who have just the opposite. They need something to get them all fired up with adrenalin. Addiction comes in many forms. Everyone is addicted to something, maybe even this internet site...tv...????...buying crap...food...attention...sugar...death...road kill..patchouli oil..


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## Ekka (Jun 16, 2006)

It's changed times these days.

We are aware of the dangers.

It was only within the last what, 10 years perhaps that the whistleblowers coughed up the truth.

Wasn't Russel Crowe in a true based movie called The Insider where he was the cheif chemical scientist hired by a tobacco company to work for them. Then when he realised what his job was and what they were doing he fessed up.

At the same time the Chiefs of the tobacco companies were denying the addictive nature and hazards.

His job was to introduce new chemicals to the tobacco which would aid in the delivery and expedience in the nicotine take up. The cigarette was the delivery sytem for the drug. 

I've also used that line "smoke in your own time not mine"


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## nitwit dolt (Jun 16, 2006)

I would like someone to explain where it is said, written, or laid down as law that I can't smoke. If your an inconsiderate person, than your an inconsiderate person. To say that of smokers is a false statement. Hell, two people have stated here that they keep the habit two themselves. Add me to that list. If it bothers you than move on.


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## buzz sawyer (Jun 17, 2006)

nitwit dolt said:


> I would like someone to explain where it is said, written, or laid down as law that I can't smoke. If your an inconsiderate person, than your an inconsiderate person. To say that of smokers is a false statement. Hell, two people have stated here that they keep the habit two themselves. Add me to that list. If it bothers you than move on.



Many places have these laws now. I disagree with them when it involves a private business but wholeheartedly support them for truly public places like airports, airplanes, hospitals, etc. 

I've known some very considerate people who smoke and some very inconsiderate people who smoke. Sounds like some of the considerate smokers think all smokers are considerate and some of the nonsmokers think all smokers are inconsiderate. Both statements are incorrect, of course. There are some very considerate smokers on this thread and I greatly appreciate your thoughtfulness. Maybe you all can get the message to inconsiderate smokers that it is not alright to toss lit cigarettes out your car window or dump full ashtrays at the interstate off-ramps or smoke in crowded places.

As for other types of air pollution (cars, saws, etc), I would agree with the comparison if the machine was placed next someone and run. Maybe run a hose from the exhaust in next to my table at restaurant? Would anyone get upset if I opened a pig farm 10 feet from their house? How about spraying my favorite cologne all over someone? I like beer and last I heard, urine is generally sterile. - hmmmm? No, I'm too considerate to even think that.


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## Treeman67 (Jun 17, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> I smoke. Call it an addiction, a habit, whatever. One thing it is not is a weakness. I still run and work out and climb like a maniac.
> 
> I am very discreet, a ''considerate smoker'' if you will. I don't smoke at work but if I'm having a few beers on my own time I smoke. Peolpe who have known me for years are surprised to learn that I smoke because I keep it to myself.
> 
> What I don't get is all you anti-smoking nazis making such a big deal of it. If you don't smoke fine, if someone elses smoking bothers you tell them, or ask them to stop. End-of-story.




i'm glad i not alone, 

Treeman67


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## ukeman (Jun 17, 2006)

*chew*

chew tobaco problem solved !!!!!! Bosses hate it down the side of the truck tho!!!!!! LMAO


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## Treeman67 (Jun 17, 2006)

*smoker vs. nonsmoker*

hey... don't judge other person unless you like other poeple judge you even if you nonsmoker. everyone has their own addiction. this topic get old and stupid that everyone has to get all heat up with it, if your company who you want hire smoker or nonsmoker then it is your business. what i hire my emplyee that my business. Professional is business,it not apply to judges one another business even though we all are competitor ,we all should get along each other and SHOW SOME RESPECT... let laid off this stupid topic

Thank you
Treeman67


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## Treeman67 (Jun 17, 2006)

ukeman said:


> chew tobaco problem solved !!!!!! Bosses hate it down the side of the truck tho!!!!!! LMAO



heheheheheh ... now that funny 
Treeman67


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## jmack (Jun 17, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> I have noticed while reading many of the threads on many of sites that smokers are getting it stuck to them. I have noticed some tree companies have a no smoking policy while on the customers property. I would hate, as a smoker for the no smoking rule to be implemented in even more companies.
> Yes I understand that it is usually the smokers fault in the first place that the rules are implemented. It makes the job site unsightly to the customer seeing cigarette butts all over their lawn. Just asking the smokers to smoke responsibly and help stop the infringement of smokers rights.
> And I also understand that time may be wasted during the job due to smoking and this could be stopped as well if we just think for a second.
> 
> ...


 seems extreme who would police the vehicle rule. anyway years back a tree co trying to follow the corporate style like this office policy on smoking, was trying to recruit with a no facial hair rule, i figured if they had that policy,the next problem was how to say no-thankyou


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## spacemule (Jun 17, 2006)

Treeman67 said:


> hey... don't judge other person unless you like other poeple judge you even if you nonsmoker. everyone has their own addiction. this topic get old and stupid that everyone has to get all heat up with it, if your company who you want hire smoker or nonsmoker then it is your business. what i hire my emplyee that my business. Professional is business,it not apply to judges one another business even though we all are competitor ,we all should get along each other and SHOW SOME RESPECT... let laid off this stupid topic
> 
> Thank you
> Treeman67


Huh? We are talking about tobaco smoke, right?


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 17, 2006)

As I have said since I was fourteen or so, "If you smoke, you're stupid. Case closed!" OK, I know smokers will attack me for being simplistic, uncaring, etc., but it honestly is that simple. Smoking kills! My father died last year of lung cancer. Had he never smoked his three packs a day for forty-seven years, he would still be alive, I'm positive. He quit twenty-five years ago, but it still killed him, starting with emphysema. Granted he lived a long life, making it to eighty-five, but he would have lived to be a hundred or more without the cigs, as we have longevity in our family's genes, and my old man was super active right up until he hit eighty-three. 

Even when I'm fifty feet up a tree, I can smell the cigs of the groundies and it bothers the hell out of me. I am seriously considering banning smoking on my gigs.


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

Your call as an employer. I often see ads for non smoking employees, the latest this morning for a warehouse manager for a pharmaceutical company. If you are trying to cultivate an upscale image and client base for any company, having employees with cigarettes stuck into their face does not enhance your efforts. The demographics of smokers in this country indicate most are less educated and lower on the wage scale. And you are right about smokers dying off....all my relatives who were heavy smokers to the end are DEAD, oldest lived to just 60, which is a pretty young age to die these days.

I liked these words of wisdom earlier regarding when smoking is permissable. And if you can smell it in a tree, and find it offensive, and did not give permission to the employee to smoke on the job, your call.

"You can keep it entirely to yourself, OR,
You have permission"


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## woodchux (Jun 17, 2006)

Last time i checked USA was still a FREE COUNTRY.
If I still smoked I'd wind up in jail , cause i'd smoke where ever the hell i wanted.

That said ,I would try not to force anyone to breath my second hand smoke. I know how irritating it is, my wife still smokes,and it does bother me.
But this is a free country , sure you should take others into consideration , but this is a free country. I do not want to live in a place where you can't decide for yourself what you will do to your own body.

To me what's worse than the smoke is all the burns everywhere. Smokers always leave behind a trail of burn marks. But whats worse than the burns, is the anti smoking NAZIS

KEEP AMERICA FREE


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

Doesn't get it.

"You can keep it entirely to yourself, OR,
You have permission"

Blowing smoke on someone else violates rule one, and smoking in anywhere but your own home, property, the street or private car (not the truck you use for business) as well. 

Just about anywhere else, without permission, and that includes laws that prohibit smoking in public places, violates #2.

I am not an anti smoking Nazi, as I said earlier, wanna smoke in my house for short visits OK by me. But the non smoking majority have the right not to be subject to second hand smoke, cigarette butts etc everywhere but the places mentioned above.


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Last time i checked USA was still a FREE COUNTRY.
> If I still smoked I'd wind up in jail , cause i'd smoke where ever the hell i wanted.
> 
> KEEP AMERICA FREE



KEEP AMERICA FREE OF SECOND HAND SMOKE!

Hospitals? Old folks homes? Funeral parlours where the deceased died of lung cancer? In front of your children? Woman while pregnant? Asthmatics? Drug Stores? Supermarkets? Restaurants? Workplaces? Public vehicles? In front of someone hooked up on oxygen after a major coronary? In front of your wife when she is trying to quit smoking? Come on I do not think you are that ignorant-obviously you decided that smoking was hazardous to your health.


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## AL3rd (Jun 17, 2006)

One of my reasons for starting my own buisness. I'll smoke when ever the heck i feel like it. Now dont get me wrong, i have respect for my customers and not smoke in front of them. unless of course i come to realize they too are smokers. Now, the biggest and only rule of smoking for me and my guys. you put your butts in your pocketts, and there only. not on the ground, not in the customers trash cans and not in the back of any truck. cig filters can last like, i think 5 or more years before they will breakdown and degrade. i have fired a few different new guys, and sent them walking or drop them off to the nearest pay phone to get a ride. you get one chance only. I mean it wasnt like they wernt warned. but i think it sucks when you cant smoke at work. I have even walked away from a 1000.00 job cause the butthead wouldnt even allow us to smoke on his street, much less in his yard. Lmao


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## woodchux (Jun 17, 2006)

Jumper said:


> Hospitals? Old folks homes? Funeral parlours where the deceased died of lung cancer? In front of your children? Woman while pregnant? Asthmatics? Drug Stores? Supermarkets? Restaurants? Workplaces? Public vehicles? In front of someone hooked up on oxygen after a major coronary? In front of your wife when she is trying to quit smoking? Come on I do not think you are that ignorant-obviously you decided that smoking was hazardous to your health.



If you want to quote me , at least have the decency not to edit my posts.
and/or take me out of context.

I did say "where ever the hell i wanted" However I would not want to smoke in the places that you mentioned. I unlike many others respect the air that people are forced to breathe. Hell, my own mother died from lung cancer at 52 years old. 
Now whats important to me is the right to choose for myself [I personally choose no] But whats important in a free society, is the right to choose for yourself. I know that you will say "I want the right to not breath second hand smoke" But you can't regulate every aspect of peoples lives and still have a free society . Just not possible. That said, Don't regulate me!


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

Unfortunately in modern society such regulation is necessary when the actions of a few(up here about 1 in 5 smoke) negatively impact on the rights of many. You do have the right to choose for yourself, within reason. Some people choose to rob banks of other people's money, is regulation prohiting that taking away their "rights" in a free society? If someone blows smoke in my face and all over my clothes when I do not want them to should I have the right to thrash them severely? I do not think so in both cases. 
AL3rd you are right in starting your own business for the reasons stated, but it is getting to the point that given it is a workplace, and you obviously do have employees, smoking will not be allowed in your office and truck cab for example. Outside yes.


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## woodchux (Jun 17, 2006)

Jumper said:


> Unfortunately in modern society such regulation is necessary when the actions of a few(up here about 1 in 5 smoke) negatively impact on the rights of many. You do have the right to choose for yourself, within reason. Some people choose to rob banks of other people's money, is regulation prohiting that taking away their "rights" in a free society? If someone blows smoke in my face and all over my clothes when I do not want them to should I have the right to thrash them severely? I do not think so in both cases.
> AL3rd you are right in starting your own business for the reasons stated, but it is getting to the point that given it is a workplace, and you obviously do have employees, smoking will not be allowed in your office and truck cab for example. Outside yes.


I don't know why that you would say "unfortunately" regulation is necessary, When that seems to be exactly what you want. I guess that you mean ,Unfortunately for civil liberties.
If someone is robbing banks thats one thing, they won't be in a free society for long. And yeah if you blow smoke in my face "it's on" But how far would you go to protect people from themselves? Too far probably for me. This country was supposed to be all about freedom, what happened? 
*When did your dislikes become more important than my right to choose?*


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## AL3rd (Jun 17, 2006)

well i dont recall saying anything about blowing smoke in ones face.
i clearly stated i dont smoke in a customers presence, unless i know
they smoke.
and as far as respect for others air, buddy let me tell you, we violate that everyday without even knowing it.
how good is that smoke for you, from that 2cycle you run everyday.
see i'll be plain honest how i feel
we run diesel trucks, gas trucks, chippers, saws, stump grinders and so on
and this is all polluting are air to begin with.
so until we all stop that, for the respect of others air
dont talk to me about respect for others air.
i mean its not like im smoking in the local gas station, grocery store

GET A GRIP AND FACE IT
people are gonna smoke outside, in public where they damn well please, and there aint ???? you can do about it


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

AL3rd said:


> people are gonna smoke outside, in public where they damn well please, and there aint ???? you can do about it



Which is about the only place you can do so legally in many jurestictions at present. I do predict the sale of tobacco will be illegal in 50 years.

"When did your dislikes become more important than my right to choose?" Do not think it really has to do with "dislikes" vs rights, it is more like one person's rights vs another's. And when one person's right to smoke infringes upon another's right to clean air and health, especially when the smoker is in a huge minority position, guess which side is going to prevail. I think that is what life in a democracy is all about.


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## woodchux (Jun 17, 2006)

Jumper said:


> "When did your dislikes become more important than my right to choose?" Do not think it really has to do with "dislikes" vs rights, it is more like one person's rights vs another's. And when one person's right to smoke infringes upon another's right to clean air and health, especially when the smoker is in a huge minority position, guess which side is going to prevail. I think that is what life in a democracy is all about.



My point is that I Do Not smoke. Nobody is breathing any second hand smoke from me. I am not giving anyone any cancer from cigs, nor any stinky smoke , or burns. 
I do get a little hot when people are talking about taking away my freedom to choose for myself though. In my opinion in a free society, people should have the right to choose for themselves. Not everything is going to be perfect for you all the time . There will be things that do not please you , irritate you , harm you physically [pollution etc.] But over regulation is not the answer IMO. Prohibition Doesn't work.
I like to thing that our veterans have fought and died to give me and others the freedom to choose for ourselves .
Don't try to take away my freedom.


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## smokechase II (Jun 17, 2006)

*smoking in other countries*

Isn't it amazing all the Canadians and Euros that smoke?

You'd think that college educations would have an effect.

I think that for most of us reading this thread the thoughts are basically:
1) Let people smoke, as long as no offensive, (I.e. health issue) second hand smoke is there in a confined space or entry way. Especially with kids in a home.
2) Let non smokers have their clean air. 

I do admit that I have never done anything as tough as quit tobacco.
My hats off, with a great bow, to all of you that have.

Trivia on the butts in wood chips. More overtime eventually for some fire fighters.


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

About 20 percent of all Canucks smoke(down from 50 percent in 1964 when the US Surgeon General first announced it was hazardous to one's health), more popular amongst younger women, and people with less education, and petering off rapidly after age 60 I suppose because most heavy smokers are dead, dying or so health compromised they have to quit.
Egad vets didn't fight for people to have the right to smoke!!! You still have the right to smoke, no one has taken that away. Mind you most bios I have read stated Hitler was dead set against smoking in his presence. Even Eva Braun had to smoke outdoors!


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## Optiboli (Jun 18, 2006)

*Polluted chips?*

Just a comment on the polluted chips. The vermeer chippers we use up here run the exhaust through the chute.....so arent the chips polluted all ready? :bang:


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## RedlineIt (Jun 18, 2006)

Hmmm, Interesting thread.


AL3rd mentioned a study that cig butts take as much as five years to break down. True. This is because the cellulose that comprises the filter is tightly bound in high quality paper. (Duh).

The same study also found that if the butt is split open and the cellulose allowed to expand, the bit of paper, cellulose and vegetable matter break down in just 3 to 6 months.

So, if a smoker busts his butt,  should be no problem in the wood chips, no?

For anyone who is still smoking, read my new book: "How to Quit Smoking in 40 Years, or Less."


RedlineIt


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## juststumps (Jun 19, 2006)

Even when I'm fifty feet up a tree, I can smell the cigs of the groundies and it bothers the hell out of me. I am seriously considering banning smoking on my gigs.

some one else's post...i can't imagine,,, in my wildest dream,,,,some body smelling cigarette smoke fifty feet in the air,,,,while one handing a sthl 200T, or a husky 335 (which blows 2 stroke exhuast right into your face!!!!) i smoke,, i don't come home from work smelling of cigs!!!! i smell of 2 stroke....bucking up big wood, or flushing a stump,, with a big saw,,, i gotta take a breather.... the fumes from a saw are 100 times worse than cigarette smoke!!!!!!!


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## spacemule (Jun 19, 2006)

juststumps said:


> Even when I'm fifty feet up a tree, I can smell the cigs of the groundies and it bothers the hell out of me. I am seriously considering banning smoking on my gigs.
> 
> some one else's post...i can't imagine,,, in my wildest dream,,,,some body smelling cigarette smoke fifty feet in the air,,,,while one handing a sthl 200T, or a husky 335 (which blows 2 stroke exhuast right into your face!!!!) i smoke,, i don't come home from work smelling of cigs!!!! i smell of 2 stroke....bucking up big wood, or flushing a stump,, with a big saw,,, i gotta take a breather.... the fumes from a saw are 100 times worse than cigarette smoke!!!!!!!


That's quite plausible. I've followed cars down the road before at highway speeds with my window open, and could distinctly smell the cigg fumes. I've gotten sodas out of vending machines in smoking breakrooms before, and the smoke odor was present on the wet 12 ounce aluminum cans. If you smoke, you have no clue how noxious the odor is. Just because you can't smell your own farts doesn't mean it doesn't stink.


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## Jumper (Jun 19, 2006)

I think most people that smoke have diminished sences of both taste and smell. You are correct in stating they have no idea how noxious the smell is. And they probably have gotten used to the stink. From my days running around the bush in the Army you can smell smokers on night patrol or OP duty from quite a distance too....dead giveaway.


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## juststumps (Jun 19, 2006)

spacemule said:


> That's quite plausible. I've followed cars down the road before at highway speeds with my window open, and could distinctly smell the cigg fumes. I've gotten sodas out of vending machines in smoking breakrooms before, and the smoke odor was present on the wet 12 ounce aluminum cans. If you smoke, you have no clue how noxious the odor is. Just because you can't smell your own farts doesn't mean it doesn't stink.


FYI,, my farts smell like roses!!!! i'm very offended!!!!


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## Jumper (Jun 20, 2006)

So are no doubt the people who smell 'em!


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## CJ-7 (Jun 20, 2006)

Ok, so i am an anti-smoker, just to be clear. Never smoked in my life but grew up in a home where dad smoked till he quit cold turkey at age 50 due to heart conditions, and mom then turned into a closet smoker till she died.

Two things really crank me: parents caring more about their rights as smokers than their child's health (including pregnant moms) 
and health care professionals that take smoke breaks. 

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKERS THINKING!! Oh yea, I need that hit of nicotine at any cost. No different than any other drug addiction. DEAL WITH IT! Get help.

Can anyone give me a good reason why someone should start smoking? Help me understand. Why would a sane person, who would walk to get upwind of a smokey fire, deliberatly inhale concentrated smoke which at first try will make you cough involuntarily. Your body is telling you something. I guess kids think it looks cool. Personally I think it looks stupid. Really stupid. And it is. If you can't give me a good reason to start, you are going to be hard-pressed to give me one to keep smoking.

If smokers only affected their lives, it would be different, still not ok, but different.


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## Marky Mark (Jun 20, 2006)

Why is it that people have to shove there beliefs down others throats. We live in a free country right. Do what you want and when you want, this is just a case of taking your rights away. I hate booze maybe that should be banned also. Better yet I am sick of people working for me that have kids, they need to take there kid here and there. YEP on my time and my dime. Not fair to the smart unmarried people. Maybe we should ban kids also, I feel they are not socially acceptable. I hate dingbats on bicycles they take up part of the road. Do any of you people hear how you sound. 

Smoke, drink, shoot dope whatever you want to do it's a free world here start acting like it is.


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## sawinredneck (Jun 20, 2006)

Bear with me here, I will put in my .02..... As someone that smoked for 18 yrs and just quit, I have a much different veiw of it all!
I personally think, and have thought, that smoking should be outlawed for years!!! It is the most addictive substance on the planet nad one of the easiest to get! The first times I smoked I liked the buzz I got, then I wanted it more then to reach that you must go with stronger and stronger ciq to achieve that, then its over, no more buzz no more "high", just stuck with smoking, until you can find a way to kick it!
I cannot give anyone a good reason to start smoking, nor will I!!! I much less can give anyone a reason at all to continue smoking! I will not however belittle or berate someone for something I myself have done, that is hypocritical. If that person wants to quit, I will gladly offer any all of the knowledge and support I can!
Yes it pissed me off to go to resturants that were non-smoking, but I was never once offended when someone asked me not to smoke on their property or in public. My mother is very asthmatic, I learned from her about respect for other peoples lungs! 
Yes I did smoke on job sites, and I put my butts in my pockets but if the home owner asked me not to, "no problem!" That is just courtesy and RESPECT!!! If you cannot be courtious and respectful to the homeowner on their property, you need to find another line of work!!!!
Yeah Yeah, "What about my rights?" "I thought this was a free country?" As soon as you set foot on another mans property, you loose that right to be offensive, and if you cannot honor that I would not consider you to be as professional as some of you claim to be!!
If the homeowner has no problems, and nothing is said, smoke youre brains out, just pick up after yourself, it's not rocket science!!
OK, I am done ranting now,
Andy


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## CJ-7 (Jun 20, 2006)

> shoot dope whatever you want to do it's a free world



Thanks, Marky Mark, now I understand why at least SOME people smoke, to show the world that "I am a free spirit and no one is going to tell me what to do".

A lot of those same free spirits are the ones who end up robbing liquor stores so they can shoot their dope and end up in jail supported by you and me. Their rights end where my wallet begins. Just taking your statement to a logical conclusion.


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## Jumper (Jun 20, 2006)

Marky Mark said:


> Smoke, drink, shoot dope whatever you want to do it's a free world here start acting like it is.



Really??? So it is OK to enjoy kiddie P*O*R*N (yes this word is on the nono list) Abuse your wife? Kick the sh*t out of your dog? Beat your children? Knowingly put your employees or fellow workers in dangerous situations? Rape people? 

You hate booze. OK fine, but when someone drinks it to excess they puke and are ill the next day/week/month whatever. The responsible person sitting at the bar/party whatever was not subject to being forced to breath in carcinogens. Filth. You might as well breath in vacumn cleaner dust-pet dander, dust, rat poop, insect remains.

Give me a break. The vast majority of people in Canada and the USA have finally figured out second smoke is harmful, and unacceptable, and have caused governments to do something about it. Smoke em if ya got em...but only in your home, on your property, in your private vehicle or outside in the street or on public land. Otherwise the answer is ask for permission, or "NO" in every other situation I can think of.


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## Climb020 (Jun 20, 2006)

OK I see that now we are just running around in circles and the thread is getting a bit worn from it.

Let us take a look now from another stand point.

Who here drink? Who then drinks then drives? And YES 1 beer count trust I know I was in an accident where the person had 1 drink. Now lets see.

Someone smokes and lets say they will kill 5 people in there whole life due to smoking related illnesses. This is hypothetical so just stick with me on this.
Nows the same guy gets in his vehicle drunk and kills 5 people including himself your wife and 3 kids. 

So know what looks so bad? Don't give me crap about what smoking does to you or or kids or anyone if you have ever drank and then drove. I know most people do because if you go to the bar you need to get home somehow and most poeple drive there and drive home.

There are far worse things then cig. smoke do be worried about and alcohol is one of them. I do drink every now and then. The reason this is because I don't go out and drink because I KNOW I HAVE TO DRIVE HOME AT THE END OF THE NIGHT. This is why is the original post I put "smoke responsibly" hoping someone might pick up on the fact that i took it from the "drink responsibly" ads we see everyday.

I don't intend to sideline the thread now with drinking just comparing smoking to drink because I think far more people drink and it would make people better understand the more harmful things that can result.


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## pyro_forester (Jun 20, 2006)

Okay, gonna have a stab at this and try to not offend anyone...


Jumper said:


> Unfortunately in modern society such regulation is necessary when the actions of a few(up here about 1 in 5 smoke) negatively impact on the rights of many.


The technical term for that is a perverse incentive.
In our society, we have decided (one way or another: the law, indoctrination by the big corps., taught by our parents, etc.) that certain actions/things aren't good (eg: pr0n, robbing banks, rape, file-sharing, etc.) for our society as a whole to be partaking in, so we put measures in place. Now on the face, it seems like that infringes on John Doe's right to do X, but what is really happening is we're protecting everybody else's right to not be affected by those things.
In the case of smoking, the society is slowly coming around to realize that smoking really is bad for your health. Also, as some of you have mentioned, if it's private property, they have every _right_ to do/prohibit whatever they want, it's _their_ property (provided it isn't prohibited by any higher power). In the case of public places, the no smoking laws are to protect the common citizen that uses those places. In a perfect society, we would all be "considerate smokers" IMHO, but our society is far from perfect..  
Just my $.02, bash away.

Taylor


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## Marky Mark (Jun 20, 2006)

Let's be real did I say Kiddy ???? No but being that we lose more and more rights to others is BS, You all drive, you pollute the air more than smokers do, stop driving. Me I don't smoke anymore but I sure as hell don't tell anyone what to do. If you don't like smoke in a bar don't go. Better yet get that cell phone away from your brain. The list could keep going on an on. If most people only cared about what they did you would be having this post.

Look at that big pine RBTREE took down where the guy got a court order. Was that fair to the owner of the tree that was blocking the dope view. NO he knew that the tree was there before he bought the house. The guy with more money won in that game. All the tree apes should stopcutting trees since it gives me the fresh air I breath. Next thing will be workers are complaining about 2 cycle saws it can cause cancer you know.

Where's MB when you need him???


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## pyro_forester (Jun 20, 2006)

Good point Mark, it is a very fine line between protecting the rights of the innocent (using that term loosely) and depriving the citezenry of _their_ rights.


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## b1rdman (Jun 20, 2006)

A sign in one of my favorite "watering holes"....

"If you're smoking we'll assume you are on fire and take the appropriate action."

 

If you want to kill yourself with tobacco then chew it. You might disgust a few people but unless you're a lousy spitter you won't damage their health or their property.


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

You guys were pretty right on comparing second hand smoke to farts.
Both about equally stinky and offensive. 
But to me i would rather that you blow smoke on me than fart. 
Should we make farting in public illegal?
Come on what next? 
Ya'll have went way overboard comparing 2nd hand smoke to 
child ****, bank robbery, wife beatin, drunk driving , dog beating, rape.
PLEASE... ya'll need a reality check !
It' just a little smoke, deal with it.


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## Climb020 (Jun 20, 2006)

I just brought up the drunk driven to show them how silly they all sound.
It amazes me the way some people think.


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> I just brought up the drunk driven to show them how silly they all sound.
> It amazes me the way some people think.


I have never driven after drinking, and I'm equally as hard on those who do as I am on smoking in public. Marky, your argument is lost so far in fallacy land that I can't even take it seriously enough to compose a response.


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## Husky372 (Jun 20, 2006)

I have tried to stay out of this because I am an uncouth sob who smokes. I have been smoking for 30 odd years nasty habit. But also hard as hell to quit. 

I will smoke any damn place I feel like it as long as it is legal to smoke there and cigs are legal. You frigging whiners are really starting to piss me off with your sniffling bull????.

Wonder how many of you whiners drive diesel trucks or run diesel chippers or breath 2 stroke fumes. All cause cancer. 

How many of you have cell phone attached to your ear they also cuase cancer. 

Hell everything causes cancer.


Your freaking whining is giving me cancer.

Live free or die. 

So all you whiners can kiss my ass.


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> I have tried to stay out of this because I am an uncouth sob who smokes. I have been smoking for 30 odd years nasty habit. But also hard as hell to quit.
> 
> I will smoke any damn place I feel like it as long as it is legal to smoke there and cigs are legal. You frigging whiners are really starting to piss me off with your sniffling bull????.
> 
> Wonder how many of you whiners drive diesel trucks or run diesel chippers or breath 2 stroke fumes. All cause cancer.


How many point the exhaust pipes 3 feet from people's noses and rev the engines?


Husky372 said:


> How many of you have cell phone attached to your ear they also cuase cancer.


How many shove their phones against the ears of strangers?



Husky372 said:


> Hell everything causes cancer.


Bull hockey.


Husky372 said:


> Your freaking whining is giving me cancer.
> 
> Live free or die.
> 
> So all you whiners can kiss my ass.


Because you're a weakling with no self control?


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

Don't powerlines cause cancer?

You guys use electricity don't ya?


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Don't powerlines cause cancer?
> 
> You guys use electricity don't ya?


So, are you saying that people benefit from smoking as much as they benefit from electricity?


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## Husky372 (Jun 20, 2006)

Weakling you have no clue who or what I am. But I sure as hell aint no weakling. Just becuase you dont put the muffler in someones face dont meen squat you are still polluting someones air *right* Then of course your phone is giving you cancer but your worried about my cig smoke. Notice you didn't mention the diesel truck that is sitting at stop light next to some lady and her kid and the fumes are going right in her window. Or that chipper that is being worked in someones yard but the fumes are going in neighbors house. They never invited you or your stinky equipment there but they still have to smell. So get real.


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> Weakling you have no clue who or what I am. But I sure as hell aint no weakling. Just becuase you dont put the muffler in someones face dont meen squat you are still polluting someones air *right* Then of course your phone is giving you cancer but your worried about my cig smoke. Notice you didn't mention the diesel truck that is sitting at stop light next to some lady and her kid and the fumes are going right in her window. Or that chipper that is being worked in someones yard but the fumes are going in neighbors house. They never invited you or your stinky equipment there but they still have to smell. So get real.


Can you please explain to me how smoking compares to things that are essential for our society to function?


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## Husky372 (Jun 20, 2006)

spacemule said:


> So, are you saying that people benefit from smoking as much as they benefit from electricity?


As long as you get something out of something it is ok. Well I get something out of smoking. I get cancer an the privalage to give it to you.


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## Husky372 (Jun 20, 2006)

You trimming someones tree helps society how exactly?


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> As long as you get something out of something it is ok. Well I get something out of smoking. I get cancer an the privalage to give it to you.


This isn't about _me_ getting something. It's about every person in our society getting something, not just one in five while taking away from everyone else. And, btw, no one is wanting to ban smoking, just keep it to your damned self. Is the legitimacy of this simple idea so hard to comprehend?


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

I think that if the #s were crunched and we could identify how much cancer is attributed to power lines. The family members of the Dead and dieing Would seem to have a valid point to Ban Electricity (using Anti-smoking NAZI reasoning) How far you gonna go to protect the 'innocent'?


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## Husky372 (Jun 20, 2006)

Yup it sure is when dont care if anyone smokes in there own home or car but everywhere else it isn't. Then your infringing on my right to do something perfectly legal. If you or anyone else dont like the smell move up wind.

If I am at someones place and they dont want me to smoke fine I will go outside. I dont leave my butts on there ground. And I respect your right as prop owner to your ideals. But I will be damned if I will stop smoking in free air space so to speak.


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

woodchux said:


> I think that if the #s were crunched and we could identify how much cancer is attributed to power lines. The family members of the Dead and dieing Would seem to have a valid point to Ban Electricity (using Anti-smoking NAZI reasoning) How far you gonna go to protect the 'innocent'?


Speculation is not worth much. If you come up with a credible source that links cancer to power lines even a 1/4 as closely as it has been linked to ciggs, then you will have a point. Again, what is your alternative to electricity?


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> Yup it sure is when dont care if anyone smokes in there own home or car but everywhere else it isn't. Then your infringing on my right to do something perfectly legal. If you or anyone else dont like the smell move up wind.
> 
> If I am at someones place and they dont want me to smoke fine I will go outside. I dont leave my butts on there ground. And I respect your right as prop owner to your ideals. But I will be damned if I will stop smoking in free air space so to speak.


Well, I can respect that. I mistakenly thought you were insisting on smoking in public.


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## LarryTheCableGuy (Jun 20, 2006)

spacemule said:


> This isn't about _me_ getting something. It's about every person in our society getting something, not just one in five while taking away from everyone else. And, btw, no one is wanting to ban smoking, just keep it to your damned self. Is the legitimacy of this simple idea so hard to comprehend?


Nicely said, Space. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

.


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## Husky372 (Jun 20, 2006)

spacemule said:


> Well, I can respect that. I mistakenly thought you were insisting on smoking in public.


When it was legal to smoke in resteruants and such I did. But it isn't any more so I dont. Never have in peoples cars or homes that didn't want me to. Also always ask mind if I smoke.

As for power line thing. My wife is a cancer nurse (25 years) and she will not buy house or property on power lines.


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

I like my electricity, and I am willing to trade off on the negative effects it might create.
Same with my freedom, I am willing to trade off some of the negative effects of a free society (2nd hand smoke etc.) It's worth the price for freedom.
BTW I haven't smoked in 20 yrs.


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

woodchux said:


> I like my electricity, and I am willing to trade off on the negative effects it might create.
> Same with my freedom, I am willing to trade off some of the negative effects of a free society (2nd hand smoke etc.) It's worth the price for freedom.
> BTW I haven't smoked in 20 yrs.


I'm curious woodchux, would you support masturbation in public?


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

spacemule said:


> I'm curious woodchux, would you support masturbation in public?


Are you propositioning me?


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Are you propositioning me?


No. Specifically, I'm asking if you would support an individual's "right" to masturbate in public.


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

That's a pretty big jump from 2nd hand smoke.


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## juststumps (Jun 20, 2006)

seems to me there are a few different types of people on this thread.......

1: smokers

2: ex smokers

3: non smokers

and

4: people , who , becuase they don't like some thing,, every one that does,, is wrong....


sort of like my old neighborhood....people buy a house by the local airport,,,they want to shut the airport down...

people buy a house in the woods,, they want to stop anyone from builing next door...

people buy a house next to the train tracks,, they want the railroad shut down

people buy a house by a farm,, they want the farm shut down


#! goes into a smoking bar
#2 goes into a smoking bar
#3 goes into a smoking bar
#4 goes into a smoking bar,,,and ?????'s the whole time,,,if its that offensive,, he should leave,,,, but no!!! he has to whine the whole time about the smoke...,but it's a smoking bar,,,,they don't have to be there,,, but they won't leave,, for some reason they will stay and ????? all night .....
and try to change what everyone else is happy with.....


by the way,, did i mention my farts smell like roses!!!!!! my new line of biz,,,, perfume " eau de stumps"


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

woodchux said:


> That's a pretty big jump from 2nd hand smoke.


I'm not saying they're equal. I'm asking if, in your view, there are certain "freedoms" that should not be allowed in society.


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## juststumps (Jun 20, 2006)

censor check" ?????"


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## woodchux (Jun 20, 2006)

spacemule said:


> I'm not saying they're equal. I'm asking if, in your view, there are certain "freedoms" that should not be allowed in society.



Of course there are limits,

But as far back as i can remember pocket pool in public has always been a no-no. 

I am concerned with losing the rights and freedoms that we currently enjoy.


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## spacemule (Jun 20, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Of course there are limits,
> 
> But as far back as i can remember pocket pool in public has always been a no-no.
> 
> I am concerned with losing the rights and freedoms that we currently enjoy.


I see. So, you want the current rules and laws regarding public behavior to remain static, even when everything else changes?


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## woodchux (Jun 21, 2006)

spacemule said:


> I see. So, you want the current rules and laws regarding public behavior to remain static, even when everything else changes?



Specifically what changes are you referring to?


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## Husky372 (Jun 21, 2006)

Masterbation in public is illegal smoking is legal. I find it funny how you guys jump from smoking to rape child ???? and whatever sick deviant behavior you can think of to justify your position. Something you should take into consideration is that smoking has been legal and going on since the first person saw a tabbaco leave and rolled it into a cig and smoked it. Only in last few years has it gotten such a bad rap. If you are that worried about the effects maybe you should remember that the leaf itself isn't the cuase but the chemicails cig companys put into to make more addictive.


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## spacemule (Jun 21, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> Something you should take into consideration is that smoking has been legal and going on since the first person saw a tabbaco leave and rolled it into a cig and smoked it.


Appeal to tradition.


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## Husky372 (Jun 21, 2006)

Never said it is right only legal. And has been forever. Untill it is illegal and I still smoke I will do it wherever it is legal to do so. And if anyone in my smoke cloud dont like it they can move up wind or live with it.


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## spacemule (Jun 21, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> Masterbation in public is illegal smoking is legal.


Yes, but should it be? I'm sure public masterbaters "get something" from beating their meat in public, and they probably don't think it's sick either. And also, the point could be made that masterbation doesn't cause any harmful health effects to bystanders.


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## Husky372 (Jun 21, 2006)

I think you are missing the point. If I am legally able to smoke and some putz like you tells me to put it out or go elsewhere. I will tell you in no uncertain terms to kiss my ass. But If I am asked nice (nice is key word here) I may consider moving. But if I am sitting here or standing what have you and you come to where I am and then say would you mind. Hell yes I mind.


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## SilentElk (Jun 21, 2006)

I dont smoke but I hate the fact smokers are losing their rights. Smokers never bother me. Not that I care to smoke but I hate people losing rights. In all honesty, I would rather see religion banned. People coming up to my door and trying to tell me how to live my life is significantly more worrisome in my book. I have yet to have a person bug me at home and ask if I wanted to join them in smoking or sell me a pack.

I need a Smiley face throwing a log into a fire. Anyone got one of those?


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## RedlineIt (Jun 21, 2006)

This thread has gone nuts.

I love it.

Most hilarious parts are the likening of mere scent tobacco smoke to skunks and farts and the very odour making one likely to vomit.

Yes you can sniff it fifty feet away, but grow an IQ folks!

This product was marketed with astounding success for *over 200 years* based on *the pleasing aroma, taste, and flavor* of the burning of tobacco.

The facts about tobacco may make you wish to not inhale any more of it than you absolutely have to, and I understand that, but to say it stinks worse than (horrible smell inserted here) doesn't get anywhere.

It's easily seen as your over-reaction, sucked in to the reverse swing of the tobacco pendulum.

Now go back to work, and climb some trees.


RedlineIt


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## spacemule (Jun 22, 2006)

RedlineIt said:


> This product was marketed with astounding success for *over 200 years* based on *the pleasing aroma, taste, and flavor* of the burning of tobacco.


It's a demonstrated fact that smokers have diminished sensory perceptions. And I'm sure the nicotine didn't have anything to do with the success of tobacco, right.


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## Ekka (Jun 22, 2006)

SilentElk said:


> I hate the fact smokers are losing their rights.



Non smokers have rights too you know.

Smokers are just having things taken away that they should never have had in the first place. Their "rights" were a gross error and are now being corrected.

The worst, and it really pisses me off, is when I see little kiddies in the back of the car, windows up and the parent is smoking ... that is a right do you think? A right for who? That should be a prosecution ... poor kids.

It's not a right to smoke, it's a right to be smoke free.


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## Jumper (Jun 22, 2006)

"This product was marketed with astounding success for over 200 years based on the pleasing aroma, taste, and flavor of the burning of tobacco."


Marketed by the same folks that told us that smoking was somehow healthy as recently as the 1950s. 

I once kissed a woman in freefall ("PJ") and all I could taste was smoke on her lips etc , truly like licking an ashtray. If there was ever a reason to quit..................


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## buff (Jun 22, 2006)

I do not care if people smoke a hole in their lung. But when they do, I just wish they would stop voting democrat and expecting me to pay for it.


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## woodchux (Jun 22, 2006)

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


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## buff (Jun 22, 2006)

I am all for the liberty for people to smoke themselves to death as long as I do not have to pay for their funeral.


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## Jumper (Jun 22, 2006)

.....Or have them contribute to my earlier than planned demise.


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## juststumps (Jun 22, 2006)

there are smokers,, non smokers,, ex smokers,, and people who can't stand smoking....if you can't stand smoke... why do you go where there is smoking??? you don't have to be there!!!!!! i know you all have your rights,, but so do smokers!!!!! it's all about choice.. smokers chose to smoke... non smokers chose not to....i don't under stand why people who hate smoke go to places, that smoking is allowed and b#[email protected]$c%h???? if you don't like smoke, why go some where that there is smoking????? you might have a right to be there,,,, but you don't have to be,,,it's your choice to put yourself in that position.....


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## buff (Jun 22, 2006)

If you smoke at the table. Can I fart at your table? Seems like a matter of choice to me.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jun 23, 2006)

:stupid: :deadhorse:


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## juststumps (Jun 23, 2006)

buff said:


> If you smoke at the table. Can I fart at your table? Seems like a matter of choice to me.


go ahead,, blast away,,,,i'd be a happy person,, it never stopped any one else!!!! the reason is because " I AM TOLERANT" i will never stop anyone from doing what he or she wants , just because i don't agree with it!!!!! if i don't like it, and i can't deal with it, i leave....


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## buff (Jun 23, 2006)

Some people must be a real hoot to be around socially what with them smoking and farting all of the time.


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## CJ-7 (Jun 26, 2006)

Imagine the reaction of the American people if I were to propose introducing a new product that would kill hundreds of thousands of people per year. We would demand that it be outlawed and I would be run out of town on a rail. :bang:


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## Ekka (Jun 26, 2006)

juststumps said:


> go ahead,, blast away,,,,i'd be a happy person,, it never stopped any one else!!!! the reason is because " I AM TOLERANT" i will never stop anyone from doing what he or she wants , just because i don't agree with it!!!!! if i don't like it, and i can't deal with it, i leave....



Here's a tiny file of the dinner table at your place.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/afterdinner.wmv


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## Chucky (Jun 26, 2006)

avalontree said:


> I hear ya. Ive seen people who have just the opposite. They need something to get them all fired up with adrenalin. Addiction comes in many forms. Everyone is addicted to something, maybe even this internet site...tv...????...buying crap...food...attention...sugar...death...road kill..*patchouli oil..[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Ha-ha! OK, OK, so what if I smell of two-cycle oil, gasoline, wood chips, beer from the night before, patchouli oil, and cigarette smoke issuing forth from my piehole?
> 
> ...


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## buff (Jun 26, 2006)

People who have bad eating habits. Are they cramming food down smokers throats?


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## juststumps (Jun 26, 2006)

CJ-7 said:


> Imagine the reaction of the American people if I were to propose introducing a new product that would kill hundreds of thousands of people per year. We would demand that it be outlawed and I would be run out of town on a rail. :bang:



NEWS FLASH : i think HENRY FORD did that a while ago!!!!!! i don't see that many people walking!!!!! ROTFLMAO


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## Chucky (Jun 26, 2006)

buff said:


> People who have bad eating habits. Are they cramming food down smokers throats?



Point well taken, and you ARE addressing the topic of the original post, too. And I, as a smoker (and chawer), always try to respect the rights of smoke-averse people as much as I can. For starters, near a campfire, I always maintain that they keep a minimum smoke-safe distance of fifty feet. Any closer, and I would be very concerned for their delicate lungs, for no one knows EXACTLY what noxious chemicals could be emanating from who knows what's burning in that toxic conflagration.


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## juststumps (Jun 26, 2006)

CJ-7 said:


> Imagine the reaction of the American people if I were to propose introducing a new product that would kill hundreds of thousands of people per year. We would demand that it be outlawed and I would be run out of town on a rail. :bang:




how about THOMAS EDISON and GEORGE WESTINGHOUSE ???? a lot of people get fried....i don't see the lights out!!!!!!


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## juststumps (Jun 26, 2006)

CJ-7 said:


> Imagine the reaction of the American people if I were to propose introducing a new product that would kill hundreds of thousands of people per year. We would demand that it be outlawed and I would be run out of town on a rail. :bang:



didn't jeep discontinue the CJ series???? becuase they are dangerous??????yet you still drive one????? HMMMMMMMMMMM.......


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## juststumps (Jun 26, 2006)

buff said:


> People who have bad eating habits. Are they cramming food down smokers throats?



no, becuase they eat it all....


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## rebelman (Jun 27, 2006)

I eat second hand food all the time


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## Chucky (Jun 27, 2006)

Yeah, I saw that, Dan, and I also saw Jim Lehrer sit there, with this most amazing look of incredulity look on his face the entire length of the 10-minute interview he had with the surgeon general as he made the wildest, most fantastical claims and assertions anyone could ever imagine from a supposed man of science and medicine.

It was so obvious from listening to the surgeon general’s responses to Lehrer’s questions that he’s nothing but a shill for the agenda-driven anti-tobacco crusaders. The only thing worse than an anti-tobacco crusader is a government-sponsored anti-tobacco crusader. 

This guy actually said that secondhand smoke will kill you. He didn’t say that prolonged exposure to secondhand smoke will probably increase the risk of smoking-related diseases, which is much closer to the truth. He just came out with all these bold, unsubstantiated assertions that secondhand smoke kills. That’s pure, alarmist, propagandist codswallop.

And what scientific studies did he cite to back his outlandish claims? None. We’re just supposed to trust him because we’re just a bunch of sheep in the flock. Well, there are in fact many studies that both do and do not show a statistically significant correlation between secondhand smoke and smoking-related diseases. And there are also a number of meta-analyses (compilations of several studies) that do not significantly show a correlation at all. 

Sorry, but it’s well known that the government, when it wants to take a position on something it doesn’t like -- oh, and I think the EPA is part of the government, ain’t it? – it has a habit of cherry picking studies to support its spurious claims. “Science,” when steeped in ideology and politics ain’t science at all – it’s propaganda.

So, what’s next for the alarmist nannies after tobacco is banned? Alcohol, I suppose. Then junk food. Hmmm, come to think of it, sex is risky too.


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## spacemule (Jun 27, 2006)

Chucky said:


> So, what’s next for the alarmist nannies after tobacco is banned? Alcohol, I suppose. Then junk food. Hmmm, come to think of it, sex is risky too.


Red herring and strawman.


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## Chucky (Jun 27, 2006)

spacemule said:


> Red herring and strawman.



Well, Rex, I've no doubt they'll ban red herrings due to the mercury contamination. Heavy metals - very, very unhealthful.

And the surgeon general told Jim Lehrer he'd prefer to have smoking outside buildings banned. Due to "drifting smoke." 

Strawmen? Yeah, they'll get down to banning them eventually. Due to the "straw" component. Turns out straw is subject to pesticide and herbicide drift from adjacent crop applications.

We can't take any chances, people can be "killed" from pesticides.


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## buff (Jun 27, 2006)

What I have said before is that I believe that everyone has the right to smoke a hole in their lung. What I do not like is when they ask medicare and medicade to plug it up. I just have never met a smoker who could pay his freight.


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## buff (Jun 27, 2006)

What I have said before is that I believe everyone has the right to smoke a hole in their lung. What I do not like are smokers who look for medicare and medicaid to plug it up. I have just never met a smoker who could pay his freight.


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## Chucky (Jun 27, 2006)

Well, OK, Buff, what about the 183 million Americans who are overweight or obese setting themselves up for heart disease? Should they pay their medical bills out-of-pocket?


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## Ekka (Jun 28, 2006)

Are you smokers still carrying on?

My new bloke smokes, lots of blokes in this job smoke, lots of losers in this job too. 

Statistically it's the lower socio economic demographic that smoke (less brains)!


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## Vman (Jun 28, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Statistically it's the lower socio economic demographic that smoke (less brains)!


than i assume you are a smoker and poor....i derive that conclusion from your comment of "less brains".
your statement is such a lie and so un-true..."statistically" the majority of smokers began smoking before the mid-1980's.
LIVE IN A BIO-DOME!!

not for nothing, but if non-smokers stopped all the anti-smoking-naziness, smokers would most likely be more considerate of non-smokers. i believe i am a very considerate/responsible smoker (my posts to this thread are back in the beginning of the thread).....however, after reading all the BS on this thread, i am seriously thinking i am too considerate and maybe i should smoke anywhere where i am legally allowed to smoke and not give a hoot about being polite to non-smokers. my family will be my only exception. so keep all your BS comments up, u have just turned a considerate/responsible smoker into a smoker that will no longer have respect for non-smokers.


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## spacemule (Jun 28, 2006)

Vman said:


> than i assume you are a smoker and poor....i derive that conclusion from your comment of "less brains".
> your statement is such a lie and so un-true..."statistically" the majority of smokers began smoking before the mid-1980's.
> LIVE IN A BIO-DOME!!
> 
> not for nothing, but if non-smokers stopped all the anti-smoking-naziness, smokers would most likely be more considerate of non-smokers. i believe i am a very considerate/responsible smoker (my posts to this thread are back in the beginning of the thread).....however, after reading all the BS on this thread, i am seriously thinking i am too considerate and maybe i should smoke anywhere where i am legally allowed to smoke and not give a hoot about being polite to non-smokers. my family will be my only exception. so keep all your BS comments up, u have just turned a considerate/responsible smoker into a smoker that will no longer have respect for non-smokers.


That's a very mature attitude, Vman.


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## buff (Jun 28, 2006)

If smokers have no respect for nonsmokers they should have some respect for themselves.


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## Ekka (Jun 28, 2006)

Well that one worked a treat :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Jumper (Jun 28, 2006)

Chucky said:


> So, what’s next for the alarmist nannies after tobacco is banned? Alcohol, I suppose. Then junk food. Hmmm, come to think of it, sex is risky too.



Tobacco won't be banned, the government here will just make it so expensive, inconvenient to obtain and use,and uncool to be associated with that most people won't want to take it up. Eventually all the smokers will die off prematurely. Prohibition for alcohol did not work, they can not regulate the use of dope so why would it work for tobacco? There are no public places left here where you can smoke, except in the open ie the street.


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## b1rdman (Jun 28, 2006)

Chucky said:


> Yeah, I saw that, Dan, and I also saw Jim Lehrer sit there, with this most amazing look of incredulity look on his face the entire length of the 10-minute interview he had with the surgeon general as he made the wildest, most fantastical claims and assertions anyone could ever imagine from a supposed man of science and medicine.
> 
> It was so obvious from listening to the surgeon general’s responses to Lehrer’s questions that he’s nothing but a shill for the agenda-driven anti-tobacco crusaders. The only thing worse than an anti-tobacco crusader is a government-sponsored anti-tobacco crusader.
> 
> ...



Yesterday after I saw that post I looked for an article I read a few months back. Unfortunately I couldn't find it because I knew a post like this would come up sooner or later.

It was an independent study on the alleged risks of second hand tobacco smoke. There was one interesting twist. This study did not research second hand smoke but instead researched the findings of countless other studies.

I did not find it surprising, though some may, that there was a night and day difference between the studies commissioned by the tobacco industry and ALL other studies, commissioned or not. I wish I had the numbers because they were remarkable.


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## buff (Jun 28, 2006)

For those smokers who are worried about the government making it hard on you. Do you really need the government to tell you to stop? Another thing. Will you be passing the right to smoke on to your children?


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## Vman (Jun 28, 2006)

spacemule said:


> That's a very mature attitude, Vman.


absolutley, as compared to some of the non-smokers views!!


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## Vman (Jun 28, 2006)

buff said:


> If smokers have no respect for nonsmokers they should have some respect for themselves.


"Respect" is a two-way street


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## Vman (Jun 28, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Well that one worked a treat :hmm3grin2orange:


and i will be sure to let the 1st non-smoker who complains about my smoke to thank one of his fellow non-smokers.


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## spacemule (Jun 28, 2006)

Vman said:


> and i will be sure to let the 1st non-smoker who complains about my smoke to thank one of his fellow non-smokers.


It's been my experience that anyone who brags about how considerate they are or have been in the past is full of it.


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## Vman (Jun 28, 2006)

spacemule said:


> It's been my experience that anyone who brags about how considerate they are or have been in the past is full of it.


i don't see how in any way i have bragged about anything, all i did was state how i handled smoking in an attempt to be considerate of others.


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## buff (Jun 28, 2006)

Are you passing the right to smoke on to your children.


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## buff (Jun 28, 2006)

Are you passing the right to smoke on to your children?


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## Vman (Jun 28, 2006)

buff said:


> Are you passing the right to smoke on to your children?


i will do everything i can do to keep them from smoking, but if they do, it is their choice...as it was mine. with technology creating more cancer metastasizing cell products by the day, by the time my children grow up, they will have many more cancerous agendas to worry about than smoking.


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## Ekka (Jun 29, 2006)

Where I shot that last tapered hinge/gun adjustment video the customer was an ex-smoker.

He is in his 60's now and we had to walk around very slowly, he was gasping for breath so we got chatting.

He used to also own a shop and hence got his hands on cigs for free, he smoked 3 packs a day.

In his mid 50's suffered an acute heart attack, quadruple bypass, but problems still.

Apparently the pulmonary arteries and capillaries that connect to the lungs to do the breathing also get hard and blocked, so regardless of how much you huff and puff bugger all new clean fresh oxygen is getting thru.

Then, the heart has to work harder, and pressure goes up. This is called Pulmonary Hypertension and leads to an enlarged heart!

See this link

http://www.medicinenet.com/pulmonary_hypertension/article.htm

So then the customer has to have oxygen mask, but the damage is done, too late, cant walk 50'

Lungs and heart buggered, then what?

The deterioration of your health is slow, you adjust, even accept a diminished level of fitness .... slowly but surely it will get you.


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## buff (Jun 29, 2006)

I hope all children who will be smoking are buying large insurance policies and saving money so they will be able to pay their freight through their cancer without bothering the nonsmokers for tax money.


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## Jumper (Jun 29, 2006)

Doctors are getting more selective in who they take on as patients up here...why waste effort and tax dollars on someone that refuses to make lifestyle changes to perhaps effect a complete recovery. There was a well documented case in NS I believe where an orthopaedic surgeon refused to provide knee surgury to someone whose circulation was so compromised by a 50 cigarette a day habit to the point that installing a new joint was doomed to failure. Fine, sit and rot in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, short s it may prove to be. My uncle's oncologist told him that she would not provide any more than painkillers in the future unless he quit a nasty fifty year pipe smoking habit (he has lymphoma). He quit.


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## juststumps (Jun 29, 2006)

i didn't know that smokers put a burden on the health care system!!! "LORDDY BE" i always thought is was the ceo's making millions of dollars, and all the fraud involved.,,, MY BAD!!!!


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## Treeman67 (Jun 29, 2006)

this smoking threads is still going??? how boring..lol

 Treeman67


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## Husky372 (Jun 29, 2006)

Treeman67 said:


> this smoking threads is still going??? how boring..lol
> 
> Treeman67


Was thinking same thing. Neither side is going to change others opinions. You would think you guys arms would be getting tired from:deadhorse:


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## Ekka (Jul 2, 2006)

New laws effective 1 July 2006 here.

Total ban on smoking in pubs, clubs, casino and gaming areas and anywhere food and drink is served. Smoking near playgrounds, public buildings and beaches was banned a year ago.

Slowly but surely the "right" to pollute is going where it belongs ... extinguished.

http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,19651995%5E2765,00.html


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## Vman (Jul 2, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Slowly but surely the "right" to pollute is going where it belongs ... extinguished.
> 
> 
> > than i suggest you unload your petrol saws now while u can still get a buck for them and use the money for some hand saws and a bicycle


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## Ekka (Jul 3, 2006)

Why?

I dont start them up in those places.

There's also noise regs that I'm not allowed to start them up until 7am and shut down at sunset or 7pm whichever is sooner.

I dont take my chainsaw to the craps table or the pub let alone start them up with the exhaust in your face.

I always find the smokers argument irrational, after all the entire habit is.


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## Vman (Jul 3, 2006)

ah, ok, now i see...
in your mind, cigarettes are NFG anywhere at all, BUT...........polluting the atmosphere with your saws, cars and other petrol machinery is AOK!! who cares about clean air?? apparently not you..LOL. i had u pegged as a BS'er back at post #155 with your bogus statistic, now cigs are not ok but pollution from petrol machinery is OK. u may not run your saws in pubs but it still has the same effects to other people miles and miles away. the carcinogens produced by your 2-mix is enormous.....but you have 2 thumbs up for global warming
i am done with you
PS.......change your clothes and take a few showers before going into the pubs, the stench of your burnt 2-mix sticks to you alot worse than cig smoke.


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## buff (Jul 3, 2006)

Palm Slayer....you are whipping a dead horse. For smokers, smoking, belching, farting, scratching their ass in public and digging in their nose are all rights to be protected.


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## Ekka (Jul 4, 2006)

An irrational mob for sure.

Vman, the concept of comparing saws to smoking is irrational ... it was a desperate smoker trying to defend his habit that brought the irrationality to the table ... dismiss it.

Why you ask? Yeah I heard that little cog ticking over.

If we all smoked, 100% of society smoked we wouldn't care. But that's not the case, some do and some dont.

Now find me a chainsaw that doesn't? Ah ha, they all do. You dont see a Stihl polluting and a Husky not. We are discussing some people smoking and others not.

Now if we want to digress to hydrocarbons then there has been changes, to unleaded fuels. Two strokes are under the eye, they all are. If I could buy a performance non smoking saw I would however at this stage it's not available (motorised not handsaw either you irrational's).

Now, look at outboard engines for boats, 4 strokes are becoming the way to go, but with tiny engines which also have to be light it is harder so chainsaws are 2 strokes.

There is govt push to clean up the air, and 2 strokes are in there.

Anyway, if you guys want to discuss that start another thread about polluting chainsaws and greenhouse emmisions.

The way I see it is that if all smokers stopped, we could all have an extra saw and still be infront.


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