# Climbing Pine and Fir



## LoveToClimb (Apr 6, 2010)

Hello, i'm new to climbing and live in Colorado. I was wondering what the best method to climbing tall pine and douglas fir trees? I was thinking about it and it doesnt seem like the branches would be strong enough to hold a climber. Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## anotherlandscap (Apr 6, 2010)

depends how much you weigh i'm about 140 and never had a problem except maybe with dead trees but if you have all your belts on it shouldn't matter if one breaks.


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## canopyboy (Apr 7, 2010)

Even the tiniest branch can hold a lot of weight close to the trunk of the tree. If unsure, run your tie-in point around the trunk with the limb on the backside of the tree.

Also try climbing and getting the feel for branches in small trees close to the ground. And I don't know just how new you are, but getting some instruction or finding an experienced partner will help as well.

Finally, rec climbing is unlike professional climbing in that you get to choose the tree you climb. If you don't trust the branches, find a different tree.


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## LoveToClimb (Apr 7, 2010)

So you think a live branch with just a couple inches diameter could hold a 180lb guy as long as its close to the trunk? Thats good to hear. 

Another question. Does any one know a technique to get a false crotch wrapped around the main trunk of the tree from the ground?


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## canopyboy (Apr 8, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> So you think a live branch with just a couple inches diameter could hold a 180lb guy as long as its close to the trunk? Thats good to hear.
> 
> Another question. Does any one know a technique to get a false crotch wrapped around the main trunk of the tree from the ground?



I hesitate to say anything categorically or even to definitive without seeing the tree and branch personally. But while I wouldn't necessarily trust my TIP 100' off the ground to one so small, I've climbed up branches less than 1" in pine and fir just fine. I'm 185 or so before gear. A couple inches in diameter close to the trunk should be no problem as long as there aren't any other obvious signs of defects.

As for your false crotch question, it can be done. Not sure how kosher it is, but I've done it using a running bowline as long as there is a stub or something on the spar to pull everything up with and not to much other stuff in the way. Just make sure you leave a retrieval line attached to pull it back down with.


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## moss (Apr 8, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> So you think a live branch with just a couple inches diameter could hold a 180lb guy as long as its close to the trunk? Thats good to hear.



Wouldn't do it. Takes years of climbing experience on different species of conifers to get a sense of what will hold you and what won't. Every conifer species has it's own strength characteristics. Beyond that you need to do visual inspection, there can be defects hard to see, takes experience and skill to do it.

Have no idea what species, height of first branch etc. you're talking about, every conifer is different. No way I'd do an 70 ft. ascent on a 2" diameter conifer branch (for example)

Best strategy for tall conifers in general is to climb SRT, put the rope through the crown over multiple branches and anchor the other end on the ground (trunk of same tree of another tree nearby). That way you can take advantage of several branches to hold your weight.
-moss


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## LoveToClimb (Apr 8, 2010)

moss said:


> Wouldn't do it. Takes years of climbing experience on different species of conifers to get a sense of what will hold you and what won't. Every conifer species has it's own strength characteristics. Beyond that you need to do visual inspection, there can be defects hard to see, takes experience and skill to do it.
> 
> Have no idea what species, height of first branch etc. you're talking about, every conifer is different. No way I'd do an 70 ft. ascent on a 2" diameter conifer branch (for example)
> 
> ...




I've never done multiple branches before. Do you simply get the rope up over a few (even small) branches? Also if you tie off to the same tree doesnt that increase the load that is put on those branches? thanks guys!


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## canopyboy (Apr 8, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> I've never done multiple branches before. Do you simply get the rope up over a few (even small) branches? Also if you tie off to the same tree doesnt that increase the load that is put on those branches? thanks guys!



SRT tied back to the same tree or any other anchor does double the load on the branches and needs to be considered. However, in addition to offering multiple branches as a backup, SRT also is easier to set up (no isolating a limb).

While I have been comfortable using branches as small as 2" before, I will agree with Moss on the importance in experience in selecting such a tie-in. And when I say close to the trunk, I'm talking inches not feet.

But you also say you're new. So heed the caution in Moss's post, and be cautious about my reckless nature.


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## moss (Apr 9, 2010)

canopyboy said:


> But you also say you're new. So heed the caution in Moss's post, and be cautious about my reckless nature.



Not trying to bust ya canopyboy  The experienced climber has the knowledge to go with more minimal diameter branches. Beginner or rec climber has no need to go with borderline tie-ins.
-moss


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## moss (Apr 9, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> I've never done multiple branches before. Do you simply get the rope up over a few (even small) branches? Also if you tie off to the same tree doesnt that increase the load that is put on those branches? thanks guys!



Time out, I have a question. Why are you so determined to climb on small branches? I thought you said in your original post you had some tall doug firs to climb? They're going to have decent diameter branches up in the crown.

If you put your rope over multiple branches, you want a decent diameter branch in the mix. The advantage to doing it that as canopy boy mentioned is you don't have to isolate the branch. Just throw it through the crown, if you're over some decent branches you're good to go. Do a load test first to see what happens (without being attached to the rope), better to break out the small stuff/dead stuff first while you're on the ground rather than when you're halfway up the rope, the dead stuff tends to ride down the rope when it breaks out.
-moss


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## LoveToClimb (Apr 9, 2010)

All great info, thanks guys. Quick question whats the best way to clean my rope to remove pitch and sap?


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## LoveToClimb (Apr 9, 2010)

moss said:


> Time out, I have a question. Why are you so determined to climb on small branches? I thought you said in your original post you had some tall doug firs to climb? They're going to have decent diameter branches up in the crown.
> 
> If you put your rope over multiple branches, you want a decent diameter branch in the mix. The advantage to doing it that as canopy boy mentioned is you don't have to isolate the branch. Just throw it through the crown, if you're over some decent branches you're good to go. Do a load test first to see what happens (without being attached to the rope), better to break out the small stuff/dead stuff first while you're on the ground rather than when you're halfway up the rope, the dead stuff tends to ride down the rope when it breaks out.
> -moss




It's not so much that i want to climb small branches i just want to make sure i know what the limits are so i can understand the selection of trees i can climb. Knowing this new information opens up more possibilities of trees which is always a good thing. Thanks


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## moray (Apr 10, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> ...Quick question whats the best way to clean my rope to remove pitch and sap?



Assuming you are using a nylon or polyester rope, hardware-store acetone does a great job of cutting pitch and it won't hurt your rope. Just dampen a small square of cloth and rub out the pitchy spots.

The other guys gave good advice about branch size. I am willing to stand on things a whole lot smaller than I would ever use for a TIP. You want a very healthy safety margin when setting a TIP far away from you up in the crown of a tree. If you are already up in the crown when you set your TIP, you can evaluate the situation far better and position your FC exactly as you want it. Then you may choose to go with smaller wood.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 11, 2010)

Ever get your throwline hung on a tiny little epicormal sprout just a foot or so above your intended TIP, and try to break it off before you climb to get your rope down on your intended TIP? Happens to me a lot in the post-Katrina hard wood. It always amazes me how hard I have to work at it to break off an epicormal sprout smaller than a pencil. I have no trouble trusting a 2" branch on a Loblolly Pine if my rope is properly set right in the crotch between the branch and the trunk. Would not trust it, however, even a few inches out of the crotch.

But, since I climb either SRT tied back to the base, as Moss suggested, or DdRT Height Adjustable False Crotch (same tie in principle as SRT, back to the base) if I mis-judge I only fall to the next branch. 

Dont know anything about a Doug Fir, but from what I hear it is good wood. 2" should be big enough if you are right in the crotch between the limb and the main trunk, assuming the main trunk is 4" or better.

Test it low. Find a low branch somewhere only an inch or so in diameter. Put your rope over it and see if you can break it off from the ground. Put a pillow under your butt in case you succeed, but I dont think you will.


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## LoveToClimb (Apr 11, 2010)

Fireaxman said:


> But, since I climb either SRT tied back to the base, as Moss suggested, or DdRT Height Adjustable False Crotch (same tie in principle as SRT, back to the base) if I mis-judge I only fall to the next branch.



Could you explain the DdRT system you referred to above a little more for me? Thanks!


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## canopyboy (Apr 11, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> Could you explain the DdRT system you referred to above a little more for me? Thanks!



LTC - Have you found the Tree Climber's Companion? Great book with lots of good illustrations for the beginner. And a good reference for the experienced crowd too. Not too expensive and should be required equipment.

Also good, but at bit more technical and expensive is On Rope.


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## Fireaxman (Apr 11, 2010)

LoveToClimb said:


> Could you explain the DdRT system you referred to above a little more for me? Thanks!



1. Install Throwline over selected Tie In Point (TIP)

2. Pull climbing line over TIP, but dont secure it yet

3. Install a pulley on end of climbing line. This is the "False Crotch".

4. Install DdRT (Doubled, dynamic climbing rope system) through the pulley

5. Pull pulley and DdRT up to TIP

6. Secure single rope end to base of tree or neighboring tree.

7. Climb DdRT or DbRT on the doubled line.

This gives you the same tie in advantage as SRT in that (1) you dont have to isolate limbs from your DdRT system, (2) your system has back-up limbs under it if your primary TIP fails, and (3) rescuers can lower you from the ground if necessary. It also gives you the mechanical and mobility advantages of a doubled rope climbing system with friction saver. Jepson gives a good description of it in "Tree Climber's Companion".


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## LoveToClimb (Apr 13, 2010)

Fireaxman said:


> 1. Install Throwline over selected Tie In Point (TIP)
> 
> 2. Pull climbing line over TIP, but dont secure it yet
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info. I was looking through the "Tree Climber's Companion" and on page 50 this refers to the "Adjustable False Crotch" system. I just wanted to make sure this is what you were referring to. Also in the book it seems like it wants you to isolate a limb for this method (Step 1) and it also sounds like it wants you to anchor off to a neighboring tree.

Assuming we are referring to the same method is it still ok as you have mentioned above to use multiple limbs and tie off to the same tree your climbing? Thanks!


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## Fireaxman (Apr 16, 2010)

I call it "(Height) Adjustable False Crotch " to distinguish it from the (Diameter) "Adjustable False Crotch" many people use to set a false crotch around the circumference of a spar. What I am referring to as "(Height) Adjustable False Crotch" is the same technique Jepson discusses on page 50 of TCC Second Edition.

My copy of TCC (Second Edition, Copyright 2000) doesn't say anything about "Isolating" a limb. It suggests "Install an anchor line over a secure crotch in a nearby tree." as "Step 1". I think that is just because Jepson is suggesting we use this technique to tie in to a different tree than we are working in when the tree we are working is of questionable integrity. The technique is useful for many more pourposes than just the one Jepson is suggesting. Anyway, when I was climbing mostly DdRT this is the technique I used, successfuly, repeatedly, just about every time I climbed, because of the rescue-from-ground feature and the advantage of not having to isolate the TIP limb. 

I do think it is better to anchor to a different tree than you are climbing IF you are doing any cutting just because it gets your anchor rope out of the line of fire of your saws. If your anchor rope is running streight back down the trunk of the tree you are working it can be too close to the base of any limbs you are pruning, putting it more "At Risk" than if it is running at an angle back to another tree. Obviously, if you cut that anchor line, you can be in big trouble if you are not following the safety protocal of a second TIP or flip line when cutting.

If you are just Rec climbing (no saw) I see no disadvantage to tieing in to the base of the same tree you are climbing.

A better question might be "Why not just SRT?" Why go to the trouble of running a DdRT system on the primary climbing line (anchor line) once you have it installed? The only reasons are that DdRT is less equipment intensive than SRT (no ascenders / descenders) and, (except for RADS, which is even more equipment intensive) DdRT gives you better up/down mobility. Actually, I've gotten to the point now that I usually just SRT to the TIP, then set a DdRT to work from.


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## BradleyScott (Apr 20, 2010)

Climbing upon a tree is so much exciting but there is a full risk because some trees are not too much strong to take our weight.


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