# Extreme lean + heavy on lean side + heart rot . . .



## TexasTimbers (Aug 5, 2012)

I just posted this in the Arborist 101 section and realize it should probably go here. Sorry for the trouble mods - I'll paste the question below: 


I'm about to drop a large ERC. I've dropped hundreds and many with a lot of lean, but this one is big for ERC - and as said what I consider extreme lean. 30° to 35°, and because it grew next to an even larger ERC - a massive one (also with lean but not nearly as bad), it has 80% of it's very large limbs on the lean side. It's most likely also hollow to some degree. I plan to do a bore cut to find out before even notching the tree. 

This is a barber chair waiting to happen in my mind. I plan to drop it as I have all leaners that is; 1) birds mouth 2) bore cut leaving ~25% holding wood 3) release holding wood 4) haul ass. 

But I wanted to ask if there's a better way. FYI when I say I plan to do a bore cut first, I simply mean a "test" bore in the center of the tree the width of the bar only. Once I assess the degree of rot (if any) I can then make the notch, expand the bore, and release the back wood. I know without seeing it, it's tough to give an opinion but I'd still like to hear your thoughts. I've never dropped one this large, with so much lean, and so much weight on the lean side, in such a confined area with so many widow makers that will likely be raining down. I'm not "scared of it" or I'd just pass on it, but it's got my attention for sure.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 5, 2012)

Is there room to do a Coos Bay cut?


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 5, 2012)

guy could put a wrapper on it just above where you're going to cut, use big like 3/8" chain and a binder to get it tight. Have done this quit a bit. If it wants to go really big, its not gonna matter how big a chain you use though... If possible take all the other scary things down first, widow makers are called that for a reason. I ass,u,me that this is not near any structures etc if sew it might be wise to walk away. Brave and stupid go hand and hand


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 6, 2012)

I read up on that Coos bay cut and it seemed like the thing to do. It worked perfectly. I didn't execute it perfectly but it worked that way anyway. It was my first attempt at one, and since it was 107+ and I was dog tired I can't complain. I can't see needing that particular cut often, but every tool in the box is good to have. I opted for the classic T Coos cut versus the triangle. Because there was a small degree of rot. Not nearly as much as I had suspected. 

Thanks for the ideas guys. '


----------



## Gologit (Aug 6, 2012)

TexasTimbers said:


> I read up on that Coos bay cut and it seemed like the thing to do. It worked perfectly. I didn't execute it perfectly but it worked that way anyway. It was my first attempt at one, and since it was 107+ and I was dog tired I can't complain. I can't see needing that particular cut often, but every tool in the box is good to have. I opted for the classic T Coos cut versus the triangle. Because there was a small degree of rot. Not nearly as much as I had suspected.
> 
> Thanks for the ideas guys. '



Thanks for letting us know how it turned out.


----------



## forestryworks (Aug 6, 2012)

That juniper tends to snap on the stump.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 6, 2012)

What's a Coos Bay cut? 

I'm glad someone answers him I couldn't get past the drop, notch, ect.
I also glad it worked out well! !


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 6, 2012)

Make a cut on either side of the tree, creating an uncut center that points in the direction of the fall. This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting. Then, just back cut the tree nice and fast from the backside, under the presumption that you can cut it off before it breaks off. Some folks take wood off the sides to form a triangle, others make an undercut to give it a hinge...lots of variations.

Problems: 

How much to cut on either side is a bit of a guess. Without a lot of experience, I don't think you can predict how much wood to cut off before it might fail at the wrong time.

The Coos bay must be made so that the tree falls in the direction of lean. You are essentially cutting down the tree without any hinge to control sideways travel. A cross wind against the lean would probably turn out badly if you didn't have room for the miss.

This graphic shows variations that leave a hinge, so the sideways control would not be as much of an issue.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 6, 2012)

OK. I guess I have seen that before. Done something similar a lot.


----------



## madhatte (Aug 6, 2012)

I've had really good results with the Coos Bay cut; lots of times spring-poles too big to bump into relaxing from below come down easily with the triangle. Once in awhile I won't even bother with a face cut if the tree is small enough; when it goes over and tears down toward the stump, it's doing the same as if it had a hinge. Of course, no two trees are the same, so be careful when choosing a cut and don't take anything you read online as gospel.


----------



## hammerlogging (Aug 6, 2012)

except for whatever madhatte says.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 6, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Make a cut on either side of the tree, creating an uncut center that points in the direction of the fall. This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting. Then, just back cut the tree nice and fast from the backside, under the presumption that you can cut it off before it breaks off. Some folks take wood off the sides to form a triangle, others make an undercut to give it a hinge...lots of variations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you ever personally used this cut? You've posted some bad information.

I've never seen or heard of anybody who would " take wood off the sides to form a triangle". If you're using the triangle version of the Coos Bay you cut in from the sides, just like the diagram shows.

A "cross wind against the lean" can be compensated for with a tapered hinge using the T method of the Coos Bay. With either the triangle or the T, and a small face, you still have a hinge to work with. Not much of one
but enough, in most cases, to still have a little control.

And, last but not least...the uncut portion, whether using the T or the triangle can _still_ 'chair on you. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. If you ever find a cut that will, in all cases, prevent the possibility of a 'chair be sure and let the rest of us know.

You did get the part about backing it up fast right.


----------



## madhatte (Aug 6, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> except for whatever madhatte says.



ESPECIALLY whatever madhatte says! My list of achievements in the way of "Dumb Mistakes" is legendary!


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

Gologit said:


> ... You've posted some bad information.
> ...



Really? You are picking on my post? I said that it takes a great deal of experience to use the cut without making a mistake. I didn't advocate using the cut, nor did I suggest at any point that it was a sure cure for barber-chair. I only answered the damn question.

Nothing you said disagreed with what I posted, so what is your beef? Please quote for me the bad information! 

Perhaps you think only west coast loggers with moss growing on their beard know how to cut down trees? I think you are just trying to protect your privately owned forum. _Keep the flatlanders out, eh?_ 

By the way, that graphic came from ArboristSite using a simple search on Coos Bay...so I guess you just aren't reading enough here. Quite frankly, it doesn't even show the Coos Bay that I know how to use, but I am not good at drawing this stuff, so I posted it for the guy that asked for the info. 

And heck no, I have never done it using a triangle, but madhatte sure seems to have...PRIOR to your post. Like I said, some folks use it. I doubt I ever will.

I don't ever worry about barber-chair. It really isn't a problem in the trees that I work on.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

By the way, here is a link to a thread on another website. Pictures shown of the Coos Bay I described, along with commentary by Beranek. No triangles, no undercuts, and no hinge.

Different strokes for different trees.

????????????.com/showthread.php?9510-That-Coos-Bay-felling-cut-again!&[/url] 

Gee! Who would have thought it? AS doesn't want to publish anyone else's website. Search on the last half of the text, you'll find it.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

Took me a long time to find this. This is what I know as a Coos Bay, as described by Beranek in his well known book:






Kindly notice the absence of an undercut, and the lack of hinge for directional control.


----------



## sinawali (Aug 7, 2012)

That's the way i learn to fell leaning trees. I'm not a professional and i don't say that this is a perfect technic or it is better than the other technics which are posted here!!! It's just an other way.
I don't know the english name of this technic, i draw it 






The holding wood by leaning trees must be cut diagonally from the top with outstretched arms to get far away as possible from the tree. The wedges have to place after the second cut, but not by extreme leaning trees, because this would increase the tension. 
Here is a video, it is in german, but at the end, he demonstrate the cuts and I think it is understandable 

kastenschnitt - YouTube


----------



## StihlKiwi (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Really? You are picking on my post? I said that it takes a great deal of experience to use the cut without making a mistake. I didn't advocate using the cut, nor did I suggest at any point that it was a sure cure for barber-chair. I only answered the damn question.
> 
> Nothing you said disagreed with what I posted, so what is your beef? Please quote for me the bad information!
> 
> ...



You explained something different to what was in the picture you posted with it, something that seems a whole lot less safe.

And while I'm sure west coast loggers aren't the be-all and end-all of logging they seem a lot less touchy about where they work than some others..


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Really? You are picking on my post? I said that it takes a great deal of experience to use the cut without making a mistake. I didn't advocate using the cut, nor did I suggest at any point that it was a sure cure for barber-chair. I only answered the damn question.
> 
> Nothing you said disagreed with what I posted, so what is your beef? Please quote for me the bad information!
> 
> ...



The graphic of the Coos Bay was fine. It's been on AS for a long time and was first posted by GASoline 71. No quarrel with the graphic...or your use of it. It's a fine example and it's accurate.

Your description of how to cut was what I took exception to. I still take exception to it. Your description of how to use the Coos Bay was just flat wrong.
It was obvious from your post that you'd never really used a Coos Bay. You didn't let that stop you from offering your own idea of how the cuts should be made...wrong as they were. People who don't know any better might have tried your flawed methods. 

I know that you were trying to be helpful . That's appreciated. It might be for the best if you stuck to giving advice on lawn mowing and trimming shrubbery...they're more your field of expertise.


----------



## imagineero (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Took me a long time to find this. This is what I know as a Coos Bay, as described by Beranek in his well known book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No need to get shirty mate ;-)

This pic is what a coos bay is. That earlier pic is not a coos bay at all and could be best described as variants at most. A proper coos bay is a good safe cut for leaners, but has little control due to the lack of hinge. Putting a hinge in doesn't really help honestly, due to the lean. The first few times I used the coos bay I couldn't help but put a small face in there, due to habit and feeling that I wouldn't have control. I realised pretty quick that it did nothing and only made the situation worse. 

With a coos bay you want to carefully assess the tree for side lean, and try to go perpendicular to it. If you can read the lean right, you can take out a whole lot of the side wood, as much as 80% in some cases from my experience. The more you take out, the more you reduce the risk of barber chairing, but you dont want to go too far. Matching the cuts up isn't as crtical as you might think. When you make the back cut you often only get as little as a quick snip before it explodes. This is a great, useful practical cut in the right circumstances, and one that every faller ought to have in his quiver. 

I highly recommend purchasing GB's DVD's, great useful info there and worth every penny. Can be bought through baileys also.

And no offense mate, but there's nothing about "trees" in "PDQ lawn and landscape". I give you credit, but you gotta give full time loggers some credit when you jump into the logging forum while advertising yourself as a lawn guy. Not sayin' you don't do trees, it's just that it's like the reception that you'd get if you operated a single handed day trawler and walked into a bar full of alaskan crab guys who just got back to shore and tried to compare techniques. Yeah, you're all fisherman, but... oh well, nevermind. I'l just grab another beer.

Shaun


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

Good post. Just what a Coos Bay is has been a source of argument for as long as I can remember.

The diagram with the examples of the T cut and the triangle cut is the closest to what I learned. Beranek's idea is a little different. Some other guy down the road might make a combination of the two. 

Some guys don't face up a Coos Bay, some guys do. I like a little face in soft wood, depending on how heavy it leans.

Whatever works, safely and efficiently, is what a guy should use. If somebody can show me a better way I'll sure try it. 

My argument with pdqdl's post was that he had no first hand knowledge of how to cut a Coos Bay...and it showed in his description of how to cut it. Well meaning but dangerous advice, taken verbatim by a newbie, can hurt somebody.


----------



## imagineero (Aug 7, 2012)

Well, maybe I spoke out of turn. I've only ever known a coos bay to be the above pic with at least 1/3 of the sides cut out, none of that 't' cut or triangle cut stuff. I'm certainly not an old hand at the game, so I can't say with authority what a 'true' coos bay is, but the above pic is the one that makes the most sense to me. It has no real directional control beyond gravity, but it takes all the side fibres out and prevents chairing. It's also quick and simple, and works on large and small diameter trees where the bore cutting stuff is less practical. It's a pretty forgiving technique too; your side cuts don't need to match up perfect (but do be close please!) and the back cut doesn't need to be too perfect neither, so long as it's a little lower than the side cuts you'll stay out of trouble.

Plus, it explodes. What more could you want? 

Sorry, we don't have guns or explosives in australia :-(

Shaun


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

LOL...the "true Coos Bay" and what exactly it is, or isn't, or could be, or should be, has provided hours of argument, gallons of beer consumed while arguing, loud talk, bold claims, derisive laughter and the occasional page added to somebody's dental record when things got out of hand.

It's right up there with "which saw is better", "my boots are better than your boots", "what makes the best crummy", "my aunt is a better timber faller than you are", "whose turn is it to buy this round" and "where the hell are our paychecks" for getting arguments stated.

In my neighborhood the T and the triangle are the favorite. It's the way I was taught. Go over the hill a ways and somebody will be using Beranek's cut. If it works it works.

I've found though, that matching your cuts gives a little more predictability to the fall. A little face might help with preventing fibre pull and losing scale. And, on a heavy leaner, there have been a couple of times when a good fast saw was the only thing that kept it from 'chairing on me.
I could hear that tree talking and I didn't like what it had to say. :msp_wink:

And what's this about no guns or explosives in Australia? My kid goes to college in Brisbane and he says there's plenty of excitement around there. I'm probably better off not knowing too much about that.


----------



## madhatte (Aug 7, 2012)

I know of the Beranek strip cut. I've never used it. I know of the "T" variation, and I've also never used it. I know, and have used often, the triangle. It's handy in sprung alder and hemlock, brittle, whippy stuff with a penchant for horizontal movement. I should mention, once again, that I'm a forester, not a logger. I cut stuff out of the way much more often than I cut it down. I seldom worry about scale. I am much more often concerned with the safety of whomever follows me down whatever road I'm opening up. Most of the time, if I can drive over, under, or through something, I won't bother cutting it at all. I don't have time. I have somewhere else to be.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

imagineero said:


> No need to get shirty mate ;-)
> 
> ...And no offense mate, but there's nothing about "trees" in "PDQ lawn and landscape". I give you credit, but you gotta give full time loggers some credit when you jump into the logging forum while advertising yourself as a lawn guy. Not sayin' you don't do trees, it's just that it's like the reception that you'd get if you operated a single handed day trawler and walked into a bar full of alaskan crab guys who just got back to shore and tried to compare techniques. Yeah, you're all fisherman, but... oh well, nevermind. I'l just grab another beer.
> 
> Shaun



I understand how most folks think, and I would never purport to tell you guys how to do any logging. That isn't what I do. 

I am, however, quite expert at tree work, and the fact that I run a grounds maintenance company that does a whole lot more than just make stumps does not prevent me from knowing the answer to a simple question. I have tried pretty hard to not be "shirty", but when I provide an accurate answer on a topic I am quite familiar with, I don't expect anybody to get defensive about their protected turf.

Gologit, you have not yet explained how my simple answer is incorrect in ANY way. I did not present my post as a lesson in "how to", I only described the cut, which is a direct answer to the previous question. 

The question was "what's a Coos Bay cut?" _NOT_ "how do I do a Coos Bay cut?"

No need to get shirty mates ;-)


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

Gologit said:


> ...
> My argument with pdqdl's post was that he had no first hand knowledge of how to cut a Coos Bay...and it showed in his description of how to cut it.



Total BS.

Why don't you just admit that you were slamming my answer because I don't climb trees on the west coast?


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

Simmer down all :msp_smile: 
I really am amazed we got such a battle going. When the o.p. didn't do the cuts perfect ly but got the tree down safe and sound. Didn't get a saw smashed or anything else apparently. 
I think he did great. Especially in 107+ degree heat. :msp_thumbsup:
I have a hard time getting past the ( drop, notch ect stuff. ) it's. Not just terminology. It's a way of thinking to get good results! !! 
Tell any good bullbuck your gonna go drop a severally

thousand dollar tree. And he probably will tramp you on the spot. As usually when you drop something it breaks! ! .


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

But. Tho the Timber beasts on the Loggin side may fight at the drop of a hat. And usually its a race to see who can drop their hat faster. 
They don't short bus a guy for asking a question..
I'll be dipped if I can figure out why some of the arborists on the tree care forum are all uppity. . Some of the questions posted in 101 should be in tree care and climbing. 
Especially when all they can talk about is gin+tonic on the tree trimmer side. Well maybe its not that bad. Pretty hard for me to take derision about any? I would have about anything to do with a tree. 
I don't see how that has much to do with making stumps from the top down. And doing it safely. 


.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

I guess I better just turn loose of it. No sense me being mad all day because of some piece of crap who got put on ignore. 
By the way. On heavy leaners, I always put in a face. Usually not a great big one. Then Icut the sapwood on both sides on the holding wood. Then I either get with it on the backcut. Or bore thruhorizontally 
With the bottom of the bar facing the outside of the back cut and cut my way out. I.m.e.there is a lot greater possibility of the tree sitting on the bar but a lot less chance of the stump pull grabbing the chain and taking the saw away from me when the tree takes off. 



One trick that works well is to have the backcut a bit lower than your other side cuts. Just like a kerf Dutchman usually the tree won't take your saw via stump pull.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Gologit, you have not yet explained how my simple answer is incorrect in ANY way. I did not present my post as a lesson in "how to", I only described the cut, which is a direct answer to the previous question.



Go back and read post number 12. The remarks I put in parentheses are the actual words from your post that I found wrong. You gave bad advice, pure and simple. You should know better.


----------



## Sport Faller (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Total BS.
> 
> Why don't you just admit that you were slamming my answer because I don't climb trees on the west coast?



You seem a little extra butthurt, don't be such a sensitive bebe, I see you're from Kansas City, maybe you should just stick to giving advice about decent BBQ, Raising Cattle, and having a football team that chokes in the postseason


----------



## rwoods (Aug 7, 2012)

*Don't shoot - this is just a question, or three*

Gentlemen, upfront - I have zero experience with this cut. However, from studying the diagrams, it appears to me that the primary purpose of this cut, and its varients, is to lessen the time in the backcut so as to hopefully out run a barber chair - correct? 

Is not the question of a minimal, or no, facecut a question of trying to create a tipping point that is less likely to result in a barber chair? 

I assume this was misspoken, "*This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting.*" - It is the strength of the stem that holds back a barber chair and the purpose of the "T" or triangle is to preserve stem strength through leaving grains that would otherwise be severed with an ordinary backcut. Correct? 

Ron


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Total BS.
> 
> Why don't you just admit that you were slamming my answer because I don't climb trees on the west coast?



'Cause it's not true. I pointed out what I saw as mistakes and bad information. I'd do it again.

Don't feel bad about not working on the West Coast. It's not for everybody. Somebody has to stay in town and keep the lawns mowed and the rose bushes pruned up all pretty. That's a talent 'ya know...you should be proud. Really.

Tell you what..I have a job coming up. It has cowface ground and it's mostly the timber that's too big for the feller-buncher. It's a couple of weeks work if everything goes right.
There's one canyon side with a lot of heavy leaners. They're heavy enough, and leaning enough that there's no way to lay them around the hill so I'll probably use the CoosBay on a few. They're old second growth, 36" and up, and they need to save out...that's important. Very important.

Come on out. You look after your room and board and I'll pay you what you're worth. One thing, though...if you splatter that fine second growth the guy that owns the trees might want to have a word or two with you.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> I assume this was misspoken, "*This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting.*" - It is the strength of the stem that holds back a barber chair and the purpose of the "T" or triangle is to preserve stem strength through leaving grains that would otherwise be severed with an ordinary backcut. Correct?
> 
> Ron



Yup....I think he meant it the other way around. 

The CoosBay is another good tool to have but I don't trust _any_ technique to the point where I'd say it was fool proof. 
If I ever find a method of cutting that's 100% reliable every time with no mistakes and no surprises I'll be a happy man. Beware of the "if I do _this_, the tree will, of course, do _that"_ idea that so many people have. The tree doesn't care.

LOL...that's the reason that there's spikes all the way to the toe on calks...you can run for cover faster if you have good traction.


----------



## rwoods (Aug 7, 2012)

Trees are like McCulloch chainsaws; you should not think in terms of absolutes beyond this truth - once you do they will bite you. In the case of trees they may kill you. Ron


----------



## rwoods (Aug 7, 2012)

Some other common traits of trees and MACs: Every one is a different experience and you can't have experienced them all. Ron


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> Some other common traits of trees and MACs: Every one is a different experience and you can't have experienced them all. Ron



Or don't want to experience any more of them than I already have. Cully's that is. 
No offense mentioned Randy.
I think McCollughs got home sickness and would refuse to run the further they got away from their place of birth. That must be why Randy had such good luck with them.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

Sport Faller said:


> You seem a little extra butthurt, don't be such a sensitive bebe, I see you're from Kansas City, maybe you should just stick to giving advice about decent BBQ, Raising Cattle, and having a football team that chokes in the postseason



The only advice I have on those topics is that even hoping the Chiefs make post season play is a fools notion. I think when the college draft comes up, they look at everybody's grades, and selectively pick the chumps that choked on all their finals. I gave up on the Chiefs about 30 years ago.

I don't know cows, and my wife does the BBQ. Don't laugh, she got 2nd place in the Farmland BBQ contest one year, and was going to be a judge in the American Royal BBQ contest. Come to think of it, she paid her way through college by raising cows, too. 

I gots no butthurt, I just have a problem with folks that deliberately read things wrong because it suits their agenda.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

Gologit said:


> ...
> Tell you what..I have a job coming up. It has cowface ground and it's mostly the timber that's too big for the feller-buncher. It's a couple of weeks work if everything goes right.
> There's one canyon side with a lot of heavy leaners. They're heavy enough, and leaning enough that there's no way to lay them around the hill so I'll probably use the CoosBay on a few. They're old second growth, 36" and up, and they need to save out...that's important. Very important.
> 
> Come on out. You look after your room and board and I'll pay you what you're worth. One thing, though...if you splatter that fine second growth the guy that owns the trees might want to have a word or two with you.



I'd really like to take you up on that, but I'm afraid I won't. I'm not worried about getting paid what I'm worth; heck, I'd do it just for the vacation. I would have a lot of fun if the only thing I had to worry about all day long was where am I going to stick my chainsaw next.

Sorry, I don't think I trust you. It would be nothing but an invitation for abuse, scorn, and derision.


----------



## slowp (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I'd really like to take you up on that, but I'm afraid I won't. I'm not worried about getting paid what I'm worth; heck, I'd do it just for the vacation. I would have a lot of fun if the only thing I had to worry about all day long was where am I going to stick my chainsaw next.
> 
> Sorry, I don't think I trust you. It would be nothing but an invitation for abuse, scorn, and derision.



Nope. I worked on a Gologit project and there was none of the above. He brings sandwiches and coffee.
No mayo on the sandwiches though. That's because it is a warmer climate than here. He doesn't even tease much when you get your saw stuck really good in a tree. Nor did I hear bad words when the nail or whatever it was was hit. (not by me). 

I actually used the Coos Bay on an alder that was leaning. It worked. But I only have tried it oncet. I have not climbed a tree since 1980 something either. But I do live in the PNW/West Coast.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> ...
> I'll be dipped if I can figure out why some of the arborists on the tree care forum are all uppity...
> 
> .



They are, aren't they? Considerably worse than even the forestry and logging forum. Some us like to poke around elsewhere at AS, but my personal experience is that the only forum that isn't uppity is the chainsaw nuts. They seem to help everybody, even the rankest newbie, and the answers are generally without criticism or rancor.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

Some of them are. Shaun is great, D D , Pelorus, you, beast master. Ms200 .. there are several others. But several of them need a good beating.
No doubt some of them are good at what they do, but I'd bet a good sum of money they aren't as good or better at what they do than I am at what I do. I guess they never heard of professional coertesy.
Texas Timbers asked a question. Stated he didn't know, Bob answered his? Helpfully and far as I can see benifically. Didn't tell him to go get on the short bus.
Don't stress about Bob. He's a good Guy. He's given me an ass chewing a time or 2 mostly I needed it.
Big difference between an ass chewing and derision. I had to ignore the retired Norwegian army Zero and his buddies on the chainsaw forum. . Distance saves me busted knuckles. !!!!!


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

Bob?


----------



## rwoods (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> They are, aren't they? Considerably worse than even the forestry and logging forum. Some us like to poke around elsewhere at AS, but my personal experience is that the only forum that isn't uppity is the chainsaw nuts. They seem to help everybody, even the rankest newbie, and the answers are generally without criticism or rancor.



pdqdl, most us chainsaw nuts just enjoy the fun associated with chainsawing - whether it be the great outdoors, hotrodding, making something your own, restoring or collecting. Nothing too serious. And something that only a few do for a living. I trespass over here in the logging forum because it reminds me of times in my youth and I like to learn proven techniques. Things do get a little more serious here for lots of reasons. Chief among those is reaction to unsafe advice or advice which may be misunderstood and misapplied. Trash talking aside, I doubt the criticisms of your post were meant to be personal. And I would wager that you know more about safe falling than most chainsaw nuts, including myself. Much of your post was accurate and appropriately cautionary, but place yourself in the mind and shoes of a newbie with a saw and a leaner then go back and read your statements literally as a newbie would - I think you will see the reasons for the reaction. I could see someone whittling a tree down like a knife sharpened pencil or beaver style. I doubt you meant to leave that impression. I also doubt that you meant to imply that this cut is a guarantee against a barber chair. As Gologit read it, it was right for him to note it. I would dare say his viligence has saved a few lives around here. I for one am glad he speaks his mind. Ron


----------



## rwoods (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Bob?



= Gologit. Ron


----------



## Gologit (Aug 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Bob?



What?


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

Gologit = Bob. 
I think, hundred percent fer sure, maybe, perhaps.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

Treepedo. Is pretty cool too.


----------



## paccity (Aug 7, 2012)

this one got the the business , heavy on one side and a lot more heart rott than expected . did not even come apart when it tipped . notch , side , side, gunit.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> pdqdl, most us chainsaw nuts just enjoy the fun associated with chainsawing - whether it be the great outdoors...



Thank you for your balanced response. My response was not to a "newbie", but to a fellow that has obviously been doing big timber work in a very rough environment. His history displays that he can think for himself.

My point throughout has been that I was identifying the cut, not training someone how to do it. I answered the question, and I got dumped on for it. With respect to accuracy in my post, Gologit seems to be quibbling about minor expressions. Nothing I posted was inaccurate, nor misleading.

When he adds scornful remarks like how I need to return to mowing lawns and trimming roses, it is an obvious put-down. Now I have very thick skin, and my feelings are not hurt. In fact, I am accustomed to this every time I venture into his forum. But when somebody kicks me in the shin and talks down to me, I feel compelled to respond.


----------



## paccity (Aug 7, 2012)

a few people lurking. :msp_smile: bob's being quite diplomatic i think.:msp_wink:


----------



## hammerlogging (Aug 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> I assume this was misspoken, "*This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting.*" - It is the strength of the stem that holds back a barber chair and the purpose of the "T" or triangle is to preserve stem strength through leaving grains that would otherwise be severed with an ordinary backcut. Correct?
> 
> Ron



the barberchair is a slabbing effect. I think that cutting off the sides eliminates the propogation of the slab across/through the stem as the tension is released during the back cut.


----------



## hammerlogging (Aug 7, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Not just terminology. It's a way of thinking to get good results! !!
> Tell any good bullbuck your gonna go drop a severally
> 
> thousand dollar tree. And he probably will tramp you on the spot. As usually when you drop something it breaks! ! .



Yup. thats why we dump them. Dumping is a gentle pour. May I gently pour this timber, sir?


----------



## hammerlogging (Aug 7, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> One trick that works well is to have the backcut a bit lower than your other side cuts. Just like a kerf Dutchman usually the tree won't take your saw via stump pull.



this is why you release your own bore cut below your backcut, but if a bar is stuck in the tree casue it sat on your guy's bar cause he cut off the far side of his hinge when he bored, you release from above the backcut, it may want to grab your chain as it falls, but the stuck bar will remain on the stump when the tree goes.

Glad I could find some useful things in here, and once I edited out my smart ass comments, maybe I added something useful!

There are a number of people that participate in here that are not fallers or loggers and some are great, but not all.


----------



## slowp (Aug 7, 2012)

I use the term, Launch. 

Launching is a common procedure used when a pitch of ground is too steep for the skidder to reach. It can be used in the planning process. 

Example:

On the rare occasion when an 'ologist is out with you looking at a unit, or has looked on their own and they express concern about the steepness of the hill and the distance to the top boundary. You say, "The fallers can launch the trees down the hill so they can tree length them out with the skidder." Our second growth trees are "rubber trees" they don't break up when launched _properly_. 

Launching is also used near roads. Launching used to be done in the evil days of clearcutting old growth. 
You'd see a faller standing on top of a rock, cutting a large tree. The tree would fly through the air and land below. Often there would be rolling of the tree for quite a ways. Old growth trees were not "rubber trees" and much of the tree would bust up in pieces after being launched. It looked like fun though. But you didn't tell them that. :taped:


----------



## rwoods (Aug 7, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> the barberchair is a slabbing effect. I think that cutting off the sides eliminates the propogation of the slab across/through the stem as the tension is released during the back cut.



Thanks, my pea brain is overloaded but I believe I am on the same page. Anyway I probably just stumbled over the way the process was phrased as I equated "weakening of the stem" as the polar opposite of preserving holding wood to prevent slabbing. Ron


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 8, 2012)

gees I'm just happy that nobody tore into me...sometimes eyes sez stupids stuffs eyes regrets


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 8, 2012)

slowp said:


> I use the term, Launch.
> 
> Launching is a common procedure used when a pitch of ground is too steep for the skidder to reach. It can be used in the planning process.
> 
> ...




Actually since working up tops has always been loathed And busting the first 2 logs is even worse. It was common on steep ground to run them out Down the mountain. When the ground is broke up across the hill if you fall a 180 foot tree into a 70' lay , running it down hill 
Can save out anouther good log or more. Helicopter loggers ain't the only ones who can fly timber


----------



## rwoods (Aug 8, 2012)

Ron

I see our mystery London poster has come and gone again. Same post as before. Ron


----------



## Rounder (Aug 8, 2012)

rwoods said:


> Gentlemen, upfront - I have zero experience with this cut. However, from studying the diagrams, it appears to me that the primary purpose of this cut, and its varients, is to lessen the time in the backcut so as to hopefully out run a barber chair - correct?
> 
> Is not the question of a minimal, or no, facecut a question of trying to create a tipping point that is less likely to result in a barber chair?
> 
> ...



It's pretty much just minimizing the amount of holding wood that you have to deal with once you're ready to turn things loose....As oppose to just putting a face and proceeding with standard back cut. A heavy leaner usually isn't going to let you have much of a face to start with and will leave you with a whole lot of holding wood to chase. It'll chair when that small face closes shut and you're a mile behind in the backcut trying to sever holding wood that runs the full width of the tree..

Hope that makes sense Ron, no good at explaining things.


----------



## bitzer (Aug 8, 2012)

For some reason I can't see page 5 on this. Anyway, I've been cutting swamps for like 6 weeks now. Knee to waist high stumps with massive heart rot the norm. leavin whole sides of back cuts to pull for my dutchmens and doin a lot of coos bay type material. Boring the heart of the hinge (if one) and wide open faces whether its a humboldt or a coventional and always with a snipe. Butts exploding and crumpling, etc. On your toes at all times kind of thing. Knowing when and how much you can get away with. Creativity for sure. 

Heavy leaners can have deep faces with a little reaming and watching if thats what you need. 

Damn lawn fairies I tell ya.

Correction: its only been 4 weeks in the swamps? Holy #### it seems like months. 

Anyway- There is compression wood and there is holding wood. As much compression wood as can be removed the better. The compression causes the chair.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 8, 2012)

Would you guys give pdq some slack. !!! He has been real helpful to
me over on the climbing side.


----------



## rwoods (Aug 8, 2012)

Rounder, thanks - good explanation. My confused smilie msp_confused had to do with the second "hierarchical" posted early this AM which has now been removed by the mods. Ron


----------



## bitzer (Aug 8, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Would you guys give pdq some slack. !!! He has been real helpful to
> me over on the climbing side.



NO! Just kiddin. I'm sure hes really good at what he does. He has gotten into it like this before though. Two very different worlds of tree cutting.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

Bitzer; was the lawn fairy aimed at me? I kinda like it...thinking about adding it to my sig. I might as well add it, then you guys might not keep worrying about competing with or learning something from the lawn monkey.

It's true; Logging is considerably different than tree service, so is line clearance. I have not yet figured out why you guys think a post is chocked full of errors just because I don't claim to make my living selling the wood that I cut down. 

No matter why a fellow walks up to a tree, that tree is going to fall in the direction that he forces it to go. Whether he be an arborist, a logger, or a line clearance specialist, the felling cut and the physics involved don't change according to the pedigree of the guy holding the saw.

When I jumped in and posted, the whole controversy raised a bunch of folks understanding of head leaners and the use of the coos bay to take them down. I'd say the forum benefitted from the conversation.

BTW: you are right about removing the compression wood. I can't tell you how many times I have repeated that information in other threads on cutting down leaners and I have had folks tell me I was wrong, stupid, dangerous, etc. In the final analysis, everybody cuts their trees how they like, whether well informed or through ignorance. Some of them even survive, despite their ignorance.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

bitzer said:


> ...
> 
> Anyway- There is compression wood and there is holding wood. As much compression wood as can be removed the better. The compression causes the chair.



I have been thinking about writing up a document, complete with pictures and explanations, that covers how the different types of cut are intended to manage leaners and barber-chair. There are lots of "how to" documents, but none of them ever go into the physics of why the split occurs and how the various cut work to manage the problem. I have never found one that does an adequate job.

Do you think there would be any interest on the logging forum? I imagine that if it had my name on it, it would be roundly rejected just because I own some lawnmowers.

I know it would fit well in arb 101.


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

well... despite all the urinary pressure testing... I personally have never used the coos bay cut not one i think about... usually close enough to the truck and rigging to grab a wrapper anyway. that aside from my vastly underrated experience most the chairing I have seen didn't involve any kind of face cut just some monkey cutting from the back side thinking that the lean alone would be enough to send er where it wanted to go, on little trees it "can" be done ON LITTLE TREES, like under 20' and less than 3" dia. however to me it seems wiser to relieve the pressure by making some kind of face cut even if its just a little one. But since most of what the P.N.W. crowd is cutting is over 12" and very tall, it pays to be exter cautious. And then still run like hell before it comes for you. 
"Trees fight back" (Ken Kessey sometimes a great notion)


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> No matter why a fellow walks up to a tree, that tree is going to fall in the direction that he forces it to go.



Oh?


----------



## flushcut (Aug 9, 2012)

Can't you just feel the love in this thread :msp_wub:. Oh well.


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Oh?



um errr... the tree don't care to be forced, the tree don't like you, the tree wants to hurt you as much as you want to hurt it... poopy happens...


----------



## Sport Faller (Aug 9, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Oh?



Sure as hell, its true. If I give the tree THIS face while holding a small white rabbit it'll go straight up in the damn air if I want it to


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

Sew Eye knead two start carrying a small furry animal and then every thing wheel go as planed!!! Sweet


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

Sew Eye knead two start carrying a small furry animal and every thing wheel go as planned!!! SWEET!!!


----------



## Sport Faller (Aug 9, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Sew Eye knead two start carrying a small furry animal and then every thing wheel go as planed!!! Sweet



extra points if you get it a tiny tin hat, a little can of snoose, and train it to ride on your shoulder like a pirate


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

knaw eye was just gonna stuff him in the wedge pouch after all I won't need wedges then or a tin hat!!!


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

Sport Faller said:


> extra points if you get it a tiny tin hat, a little can of snoose, and train it to ride on your shoulder like a pirate



Don't forget the tiny suspenders and some little calks...four of them.


----------



## slowp (Aug 9, 2012)

Dear PDL...

I'll explain. I am not, and have never been a faller. I've been a thinner and tree sanitizer (I almost typed sodomizer--but that's another story). 

In this part of the country. fallers go into the unit and get to cutting. The equipment is working somewhere else. You can't afford to have equipment sitting around and waiting anymore. Since the invention of feller bunchers, which don't bunch fellers, fallers work on ground too steep for the machines. 

Fallers around here do not carry rope either, nor do they climb. They have wedges, axe, saw, and brains.
There is always a hard leaner or something just doesn't go right tree that will mess up the lay. Fallers fall trees (or should) "directionally" so the yarding crew can efficiently yard the trees up to the landing. Efficiently means fast and well done without beating up any leave trees if the unit is not a clearcut. 

There will always be a tree that can't be felled in the preferred direction. This gives the rigging crew something to discuss. It also makes everything that occurs beyond that tree the fault of the @#$% cutters. Cutters is the term used by the rigging crews in this area for fallers.  

Now Jake, this is where facial expressions come in. When I used to go walk down and see scarred up trees, and figured it WASN'T the fault of the @#$% cutters, I'd go watch the rigging crew work and give them the stinkeye. :msp_angry: The damage went down. 

However, there were times when the @#$% cutters did mess things up. I couldn't give them the stinkeye because they were gone. :msp_sad: 

That's my observation from my years as a @#$% forester.:msp_smile:

I've tried to use proper emoticons so no feelings are hurt.


----------



## Sport Faller (Aug 9, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Don't forget the tiny suspenders and* some little calks...four of them*.



Hot Damn, with 2 pair of calks I bet you could just hook a little Spencer tape on him and having mark the tree out while it's still standing "hya there Jackie, climb up there, I bet we can get 3 32's outta this one"


----------



## slowp (Aug 9, 2012)

Sport Faller said:


> Hot Damn, with 2 pair of calks I bet you could just hook a little Spencer tape on him and having mark the tree out while it's still standing "hya there Jackie, climb up there, I bet we can get 3 32's outta this one"



Shhhhhh. Some Forest Service type will see this thread and will put "Bunny Assist Required" in the contract. On the Sale Area Map it will be BAR and that might could confuse some loggers as to what is out there in the woods.


----------



## Sport Faller (Aug 9, 2012)

slowp said:


> Shhhhhh. Some Forest Service type will see this thread and will put "Bunny Assist Required" in the contract. On the Sale Area Map it will be BAR and that might could confuse some loggers as to what is out there in the woods.



A bunch of guys wandering around with their noses to the ground like a bunch of bloodhounds hahahaha


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

slowp said:


> Shhhhhh. Some Forest Service type will see this thread and will put "Bunny Assist Required" in the contract. On the Sale Area Map it will be BAR and that might could confuse some loggers as to what is out there in the woods.



No, I kinda like the bunny idea. Especially with the Spencer. Give the bunny a little crayon or even a can of paint and he can mark out the buck.

I think Jake is on to something here.
Think of the time it would save.


----------



## slowp (Aug 9, 2012)

Gologit said:


> No, I kinda like the bunny idea. Especially with the Spencer. Give the bunny a little crayon or even a can of paint and he can mark out the buck.
> 
> I think Jake is on to something here.
> Think of the time it would save.



The buck? The bunny would be marking some of the fellow bunnies? :msp_smile:

The color of paint used by bunnies simply has to be pink.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I have been thinking about writing up a document, complete with pictures and explanations, that covers how the different types of cut are intended to manage leaners and barber-chair. There are lots of "how to" documents, but none of them ever go into the physics of why the split occurs and how the various cut work to manage the problem. I have never found one that does an adequate job.
> 
> Do you think there would be any interest on the logging forum? I imagine that if it had my name on it, it would be roundly rejected just because I own some lawnmowers.
> 
> I know it would fit well in arb 101.



I think that both Dent and Beranek have already covered that subject pretty well. Their explanations are based on a lot of practical experience and they're presented in a form that most people can understand and make good use of.

If you've "never found one that does an adequate job" it's probably because your ideas are faulty and you're trying to come up with something to justify your own methods. I don't see that as being a good idea.

If you want to write a document on trimming or pruning or lawncare there might possibly be a receptive audience somewhere. I don't think the logging forum would be the place for it, though.

One of the reasons that so many people criticize you is that so much of your self proclaimed knowledge is questionable. That becomes very apparent very quickly when you post nonsense.

I know that you mean well and you'd like to contribute something meaningful to these discussions but you just don't have the specific experience, the actual hands-on time, to be telling loggers much of anything at all.

That's not to say that we can't learn or that we're unwilling to look at new techniques. It's just that when we learn we like to get our information from somebody that knows more than we do.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, once again, a negative perception. Who would have thought it? 

I never said that super pro's like Beranek had not adequately described methods of dealing with the barber-chair problem. Do you really think that I just pop off nonsense that I haven't learned from others? Go back and read everything I posted, and I will show you prior posts from Beranek himself (oops! Can't post that here, it was at a different forum) that say the same damn thing that I put up at the beginning of this nonsense. Yes, I did take the time to do a complete search on the topic, just 'cause I knew you would be there ready to pounce. Your tendency to assume that I am wrong before you read it is the biggest problem. If you would take your ego out of your ears long enough to understand what I say (or repeat from other sources), you might not form such a negative opinion.

I did not at all indicate that I would be discussing the "how to" aspect of the the problem. I was talking about the physics. Real math, applied using torque, shear forces applied in the wood, stuff like that. It is not good enough for me to know that a tree barber-chairs sometimes when you back cut a leaner. For me, a _complete_ understanding of how something works is necessary to mastering it. 

Of course you wouldn't be interested. I didn't really expect that you would, since you already know everything.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

Gologit said:


> ...
> 
> One of the reasons that so many people criticize you is that so much of your self proclaimed knowledge is questionable. That becomes very apparent very quickly when you post nonsense.
> 
> ...



Try to find me posting self-proclaimed knowledge that is questionable. C'mon. Give it your best shot. Quote me from anywhere, any time. 

The last time I got into a row with you, we were discussing the merits of eating dirt to control diarrhea. You master logger guys seemed to think it was a good idea. 

I suggested that it wasn't a good idea, and showed you lots of parasites that come from eating dirt. I backed it up with documentation from a wide variety of sources, but what the heck. You guys know that eating a couple handfuls of dirt is a whole lot better an idea than taking some imodium to work with you. 

In typical fashion, resentment to a new idea from a lawn fairy was very high, and there were quite a bit of unkind remarks pointed in my direction. 

Like I said, I have thick skin. If I managed to convince a few loggers that they would be better off if they avoided the risk of catching some nasty parasites by sticking a bottle of Imodium in the truck, then I have made the world a better place. 

Go back and study my posts. Track my history at AS, you will find that I am the guy that helps folks with problems. I don't pick fights, and when I get picked on, I don't call names or act badly. I certainly never discredit an argument by attacking the character of the poster, which seems to be your preferred style.

You are a moderator, aren't you? I bet you have had lots of complaints, but never found a reason to even pass along a single reprimand to me. I have every confidence that you are looking for the chance.


----------



## slowp (Aug 9, 2012)

I thought Imodium came in pill form?


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

slowp said:


> I thought Imodium came in pill form?



Yep. It does. Usually little tablets impregnated into individual plastic packs on really tough cardboard when you buy them at the convenience store. Sometimes just in bottles, when you buy in larger quantities. Put either of them in a plastic bottle, regardless, just to protect them.

I was always fond of film cannisters, but those are not too common anymore. Stick 'em in the glove box, first aid kit, whatever. Just quit eating dirt because you didn't come prepared.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Try to find me posting self-proclaimed knowledge that is questionable. C'mon. Give it your best shot. Quote me from anywhere, any time.
> 
> The last time I got into a row with you, we were discussing the merits of eating dirt to control diarrhea. You master logger guys seemed to think it was a good idea.
> 
> ...



Gosh, does this mean that I'm not on your Christmas card list anymore? 

And no, we really haven't had a lot of complaints about you. Everybody is too busy laughing at you to complain much.

It all comes down to the fact that you can talk the talk...but that's all you can do.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

You guys are interrupting my studying.


----------



## rwoods (Aug 9, 2012)

I've been at home sick most of the week - thus plenty of time to be on AS. Life is short. I'm tired. So I am moving on. I'll take my hammer with me. Besides it seems the firewood boys are arguing about how much wood is in a cord again. :msp_wink: 

No offense intended. Thanks again for the advice and explanations, and thanks especially for putting up with my intrusions. Ron


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

rwoods said:


> I've been at home sick most of the week - thus plenty of time to be on AS. Life is short. I'm tired. So I am moving on. I'll take my hammer with me. Besides it seems the firewood boys are arguing about how much wood is in a cord again. :msp_wink:
> 
> No offense intended. Thanks again for the advice and explanations, and thanks especially for putting up with my intrusions. Ron



You are never an intrusion.


----------



## rwoods (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks. Ron


----------



## RandyMac (Aug 9, 2012)

Ron, do drop by more often, sane points of view are always welcome.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

Gologit said:


> ...
> It all comes down to the fact that you can talk the talk...but that's all you can do.



Well, there you go. Win the argument by insulting your opponent. I issued a you challenge, I see how you respond, too. I expect better from a guy that seems to think he merits respect.

Thanks then, for finally admitting that I am at least "talking the talk". If I am successful at talking the talk, it's because I can and have done the work. Still do it, and continue to get better. 

A significant part of that learning improvement is my participation at AS. Please quit trying to ruin that for me. I don't pick at you, you should do the same.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Well, there you go. Win the argument by insulting your opponent. I issued a you challenge, I see how you respond, too. I expect better from a guy that seems to think he merits respect.
> 
> Thanks then, for finally admitting that I am at least "talking the talk". If I am successful at talking the talk, it's because I can and have done the work. Still do it, and continue to get better.
> 
> A significant part of that learning improvement is my participation at AS. Please quit trying to ruin that for me. I don't pick at you, you should do the same.



Agree to disagree? Sure, why not. There's really no point in arguing with you. 

But if you post something idiotic somebody is certain to call you on it. Might be me.

And...I'm not "trying to ruin" anything for you. I offered you a job. A _real_ job where you could learn something that might stand you in good stead. You chose not to take it. I won't bother to ask you again.

And am I still on the Christmas card list...or not?


----------



## RandyMac (Aug 9, 2012)




----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 9, 2012)

It's good to see that most of us big, strong, handsome men (speaking for myself) have enough cultural refinement to be able to sit down together and have a gentlemanly discussion over tea and crumpets, about the finer points of a CB cut. The rest of you troglodytes can get in line so's I can whomp you with a knotted plow line. :msp_lol:

Jokes aside, I appreciate the discussion here and have learned a great deal from the descriptions. I have been a member here quite a while but have not posted much - most of it being in the chainsaw forum. I believe this was my first foray into the F & L forum, though I stand to be corrected. 

The most interesting thing I think I have learned from this thread is the various versions of the CB cut. Until I read this thread, I would have said the the "T" with a slight face cut would be "safer" because it appears that it would add stability against any sideways lean. But then it could be argued that if the lean is read properly there shouldn't be enough side lean to matter - or if there were a little then wedging would take care of. When I saw the diagram of the "strip" version I thought to myself that I wouldn't use that if the tree were quite hollow, but then I wouldn't use a CB cut at all if it were hollow - would I? 

That was a question gys not a statement. I have felled several thousands of trees over the past 8 years but 95% have been small by logging standards. Of those 95%, probably 80% of those have been flame boxelder trees less than 80' tall and most less than 60' tall with DBH of 16" to 34". But virtually all of them have lean of varying degree. They simply do not grow very straight in the patch where I harvest them. So while I have a lot of experience dropping leaners and am comfortable (not "reckless" comfortable) doing so, they are relatively small. What makes them dangerous is that as they start getting past the 28ish" DBH they tend to get real punky at least if not downright hollow all the way from the first forks to the stump, so I have dealt with numerous barber chairs with this species. I wrap the bigger ones with chain but the smaller ones I read the lean carefully and use a long bar to cut the holding wood. I've had quite some unforeseen close calls logging as we all have but never with a barber chair. Knock on wood I've never been caught off guard from one that I hadn't already thought "this one might barber on me". On the larger ones I do wrap them. 

All that said, my question now is given the scenario of a ~34" tree with significant lean, significant heart rot, but with the lean easy to read accurately (all these FBE trees are easy to read the lean), what is the proper cut for this situation. I guess that would start a controversy let me rephrase the question, what cut would you use in this scenario. I *do* realize there are many other factors to consider when falling a tree, but with this basic info as a starting point what cut would you think you'd consider first?


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

Sure. We're good.

Should I ever post anything idiotic, please let me have it with both barrels. Just make sure that what I post is truly idiotic, not misinterpreted due to the cloud of disrespect that surrounds you.

Regarding working for you, that's ok. You see, I already have a job; I work for me. If I wanted to be a west coast logger, I would already be there. If I was to ever have worked for you, I have no doubt that we would have gotten along fine. But then, I wouldn't have been the lawn fairy under those circumstances, would I?

BTW: what is this about a _real_ job? Are the only _real_ jobs to be had working for west coast lumber barons? I guess all the arborists and climbers over in the Commercial Tree care forum are going to be sorely disappointed to find that they don't have _real_ jobs. The Milling and Sawmill guys will be crushed too, and god help us down in the Business forum. Us poor business owners have nothing to look forward to now that you tipped us off that we don't have a _real_ job.


----------



## RandyMac (Aug 9, 2012)

For having a thick hide, you seem to have scratched a festering hole going after a little thorn.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

TexasTimbers said:


> ...
> 
> That was a question gys not a statement. I have felled several thousands of trees over the past 8 years but 95% have been small by logging standards...
> 
> All that said, my question now is given the scenario of a ~34" tree with significant lean, significant heart rot, but with the lean easy to read accurately (all these FBE trees are easy to read the lean), what is the proper cut for this situation. I guess that would start a controversy let me rephrase the question, what cut would you use in this scenario. I *do* realize there are many other factors to consider when falling a tree, but with this basic info as a starting point what cut would you think you'd consider first?



I didn't think anybody harvested boxelders. I thought they were worthless. You probably know more about cutting those particular trees than anybody else in this forum.

Most of the trees I see for removal are somewhat rotten or dead, and that includes a fair amount of boxelders. 34" would be a big boxelder in our area; they don't generally get that big in KC. That being said, I am not ever attempting to save any of the wood, nor do I usually have the privilege of simply dropping the tree. We usually climb and piece it out due to obstructions.

When I get a dead or rotten leaner, and it can be simply dropped, I just about always cut the bottom out from under it with a deep face cut. The deeper, the better. Keep cutting until the gap begins to close or you make it to the halfway point. Further if you feel comfortable with it. Then just back cut it; watch it fall. As Gologit would want me to point out, that won't always work, and might turn out badly.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> For having a thick hide, you seem to have scratched a festering hole going after a little thorn.



So true! 

Not festering, but I keep pulling it out, and it keeps coming back. Maybe we got that problem solved now.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 9, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I didn't think anybody harvested boxelders. I thought they were worthless.



It is considered a trash tree here too, but I have 52 acres of the best on the planet. I send it all over the planet as well. I don't know if links are allowed here I think they are not but if you do a search for flame boxelder my site comes up at the top page one - my wife holding Hilda (my 372XP) in front of a trailer lod of them. 

Anyway yes I do cut them as you described and as I described in my OP which I believe are essentially the same way.


----------



## RandyMac (Aug 9, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> So true!
> 
> Not festering, but I keep pulling it out, and it keeps coming back. Maybe we got that problem solved now.



Yeah, removing yourself from Himalaya patch for a start.


----------



## Pelorus (Aug 9, 2012)

I wanna confess that I got tired reading this thread last night. (I was tired from work - it's not the thread that sacked me)
I plunked down in the Lazy Boy, and fell asleep for awhile, then woke up, and went to bed.
When I checked the 'puter this morning, lo & behold this darn thread was still on the screen. Go figure.
This has got to happened to others of youse, or is it just me?


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 9, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> I wanna confess that I got tired reading this thread last night. (I was tired from work - it's not the thread that sacked me)
> I plunked down in the Lazy Boy, and fell asleep for awhile, then woke up, and went to bed.
> When I checked the 'puter this morning, lo & behold this darn thread was still on the screen. Go figure.
> This has got to happened to others of youse, or is it just me?



I don't like the bickering. That's why I have so few posts here. I scan the churlish posts and read, and re-read the posts that actually have the meat and bones. It's a great forum with many fine members. And also a lot of small penises trying to be big ones. I guess it's a reflection of reality so that's how I deal with it, same as I would in person. Discretion is the better part of valor and that is largely forgotten by a small percentage on forums it seems.


----------



## Pelorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Don Blair (or somebody else - maybe GB) said that the hardest day climbin' is easier than the easiest day of logging. 
I get plenty tired enough from climbing, so I ain't about to take a poke at no loggers on this forum.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> Don Blair (or somebody else - maybe GB) said that the hardest day climbin' is easier than the easiest day of logging.
> I get plenty tired enough from climbing, so I ain't about to take a poke at no loggers on this forum.



Yeah, logging is rough sometimes. But...if _we_ fall down we're pretty close to the ground. You guys, on the other hand.....


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

well, normally the people that hang out it forestry and logging don't get to uppity...so stick around just realize that 90% of the snide comments are just that snide comments, as for the heavy leaner thing when I first started falling as more than a fire wood hack I was taught to face cut the leaners as deep as possible and back em up as fast as possible... have since learned that taking the green wood out of the sides kinda like a fat square coos bay helps a bit too. The thing is there is as many ways to fall any one tree as there are fallers, we all do it differently we all see it at a different angle...and each and every tree is different. But the one thing I allways do when falling is start the day with a full tank, keep a sharp chain on the saw, have at least 2 wedges, and somthing to beat em with, and last but knot least wear a hard hat


----------



## Gologit (Aug 9, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> well, normally the people that hang out it forestry and logging don't get to uppity...so stick around just realize that 90% of the snide comments are just that snide comments, as for the heavy leaner thing when I first started falling as more than a fire wood hack I was taught to face cut the leaners as deep as possible and back em up as fast as possible... have since learned that taking the green wood out of the sides kinda like a fat square coos bay helps a bit too. The thing is there is as many ways to fall any one tree as there are fallers, we all do it differently we all see it at a different angle...and each and every tree is different. But the one thing I allways do when falling is start the day with a full tank, keep a sharp chain on the saw, have at least 2 wedges, and somthing to beat em with, and last but knot least wear a hard hat



Are you falling full time?


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 9, 2012)

kinda? weakends... as a side line, but its more fall a few, yard a few, fall some more, break down, go back to machining on monday and try again on friday...


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 10, 2012)

Don't tell me , the Maineacks are insisting they are right and berating everyone else.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 10, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> Don Blair (or somebody else - maybe GB) said that the hardest day climbin' is easier than the easiest day of logging.
> I get plenty tired enough from climbing, so I ain't about to take a poke at no loggers on this forum.



Pelorus, don't believe it for a second. I've done lots of both. The only thing harder than wedging big spruce up out of a crik bottom is climbing a big cobby spruce.
Take a Sitka spruce , a big limby one and climb it 150-180' up and top it with a belt and spurs. Thats about all your gonna want to do that day !! 
No doubt other big conifers are just as tough.


----------



## 056 kid (Aug 10, 2012)

Hootery spruce can suck my unit.


----------



## 056 kid (Aug 10, 2012)

Lets all get together, say what we feel like saying, and beat the tar out of each other if we don't like what gets said. Anyone??

It could be an annual thing, plus words have so much more meaning when they come from someone who has stomped your leaking knocked out face into the deck.


----------



## mile9socounty (Aug 10, 2012)

Dont forget to bring the whiskey or scotch.


----------



## Gologit (Aug 10, 2012)

056 kid said:


> Lets all get together, say what we feel like saying, and beat the tar out of each other if we don't like what gets said. Anyone??
> 
> It could be an annual thing, plus words have so much more meaning when they come from someone who has stomped your leaking knocked out face into the deck.



How's your head, Ted?


----------



## Eccentric (Aug 11, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Agree to disagree? Sure, why not. There's really no point in arguing with you.
> 
> But if you post something idiotic somebody is certain to call you on it. Might be me.
> 
> ...



You're on my Christmas Card list Bob.........................and you're a hell of a lot more patient than I am. Heck I'm just happy to be able to know enough about a subject (Bob's patience in this case) to post in the F&L forum! So far I've only been able to post in the old equipment threads. I did use the 'triangle' cut with success (only tried it once so far.......and it worked). I've cut grass too. Lots of grass. Now back to lurking.


----------



## RandyMac (Aug 11, 2012)

You would make a good bucker Aaron.


----------



## Eccentric (Aug 11, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> You would make a good bucker Aaron.



I'll take that as a compliment Randy.


----------



## bitzer (Aug 12, 2012)

TexasTimbers said:


> It's good to see that most of us big, strong, handsome men (speaking for myself) have enough cultural refinement to be able to sit down together and have a gentlemanly discussion over tea and crumpets, about the finer points of a CB cut. The rest of you troglodytes can get in line so's I can whomp you with a knotted plow line. :msp_lol:
> 
> Jokes aside, I appreciate the discussion here and have learned a great deal from the descriptions. I have been a member here quite a while but have not posted much - most of it being in the chainsaw forum. I believe this was my first foray into the F & L forum, though I stand to be corrected.
> 
> ...



I'll get you a pic by Monday or Tuesday pulling some big rotten sonof##### way beyond the limits of what the wood intended. Logging in a swamp that has not been cut in his lifetime (proclaimed by the 80 year old farmer who was born there) presents its challenges. 

I too have cut many thousands of boxelders. Biggest was 50" on the stump. Maybe 80' tall. Thats how I got started years ago. Cutting the uglies. 

The chair is caused by a stall at the stump.


----------



## 056 kid (Aug 12, 2012)

Gologit said:


> How's your head, Ted?



Good and solid. Aside from afew dings.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 12, 2012)

bitzer said:


> I'll get you a pic by Monday or Tuesday pulling some big rotten sonof##### way beyond the limits of what the wood intended. Logging in a swamp that has not been cut in his lifetime (proclaimed by the 80 year old farmer who was born there) presents its challenges.
> 
> I too have cut many thousands of boxelders. Biggest was 50" on the stump. Maybe 80' tall. Thats how I got started years ago. Cutting the uglies.
> 
> The chair is caused by a stall at the stump.



Awesome. I can't wait to see it. Where is "hardwood country" do you mind telling me what state you're in? Would love to chew the fat about acer negundo sometime never even seen a 50" - biggest in my patch was a 3 footer. All of mine are flamed. Every last one of them and I have thousands on the 52 acres. Actually only half of the 52 acre parcel has them but they grow fatser than I harvest. I would imagine your 50" was hollow yes? 

Anyway can't wait to see the leaner pics.


----------



## ShaneLogs (Aug 12, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> That juniper tends to snap on the stump.



Yes it does, It loves to barber chair.


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 12, 2012)

It is certainly a brittle wood, but I've not had a problem with barber chair with them except a few really hollows ones that I fully expected to do it, but if there's any appreciable amount of lean I've always plunged them.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm pretty big on multiple step Dutchmen and a nice big siswheel if I need to swing a hard leaner. Which is fairly often on flat ground . 
Siswheels , like kerf Dutchmen , they are like Best Foods (Helman's for those on the east side of the Rockies ) mayo and real maple syrup. 
They make things better. !!!


----------



## bitzer (Aug 15, 2012)

TexasTimbers said:


> Awesome. I can't wait to see it. Where is "hardwood country" do you mind telling me what state you're in? Would love to chew the fat about acer negundo sometime never even seen a 50" - biggest in my patch was a 3 footer. All of mine are flamed. Every last one of them and I have thousands on the 52 acres. Actually only half of the 52 acre parcel has them but they grow fatser than I harvest. I would imagine your 50" was hollow yes?
> 
> Anyway can't wait to see the leaner pics.



I'm in Eastern WI. Well here are a couple of ash from this morning. The one I had to swing would have piled into another tree. The wood has been pretty clean the last few days, but it got a little ugly again today. Anyway I cut the far side off first, then a humboldt with a snipe on the butt. You really have to watch and feel the kerf and be quick with your hands or it will sit down hard. For the back cut I reached over and cut the far side first and brought it back around to my side. It went pretty quick. You can see that I left the pull wood on the root flare intentionally. It came around like it was supposed to. Last week I had one pull too well and I missed the lay by quite a ways. These trees were pretty short and bushy though. The one I missed was a straight 80 or 90' stick so it had a little more time and leverage. I had them completely blowing up on the stump that day so when it was time to run it was time to run. A tree really shouldn't chair when its hollow because everything that causes the chair is already gone. I did not bore anything on these stumps.

















I used to cut a lot of big boxelder around old farm yards and fence lines and stuff. I don't remember exactly what the stump looked like, but I am sure it was ugly. I've cut some seriously ugly trees. I don't think I'll ever do that kind of work again. It sucks. 

View attachment 248709

View attachment 248710

View attachment 248711


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 15, 2012)

I barbered a solid boxelder yesterday that was a heavy leaner even more so than the cedar in my OP, and I used a plunge with holding wood. I thought I should probably use a Coos Bay but I wanted to see if it really would barber. It did and perfectly (if you can call a barber perfect). Naturally I didn't have my camera but since I didn't have time to buck and load it I just left it as it fell and will get some pics of it when I get back out to that tract next week. I know it wouldn't have barbered with a CB cut. 

I wouldn't have done it if I'd known it was going to have so much flame in it. Wasted a little wood "experimenting" like that but it was worth it. Gained a little more knowledge and that's a good thing. 

Nice work thanks for the pics.


----------



## bitzer (Aug 15, 2012)

TexasTimbers said:


> I barbered a solid boxelder yesterday that was a heavy leaner even more so than the cedar in my OP, and I used a plunge with holding wood. I thought I should probably use a Coos Bay but I wanted to see if it really would barber. It did and perfectly (if you can call a barber perfect). Naturally I didn't have my camera but since I didn't have time to buck and load it I just left it as it fell and will get some pics of it when I get back out to that tract next week. I know it wouldn't have barbered with a CB cut.
> 
> I wouldn't have done it if I'd known it was going to have so much flame in it. Wasted a little wood "experimenting" like that but it was worth it. Gained a little more knowledge and that's a good thing.
> 
> Nice work thanks for the pics.



What are you using the wood for and by flamed are you refering to the pinkish/redish streaks that can be in the wood? I always thought if you cut some decent ones it would make some interesting looking lumber. I've seen oranges, blues, and greens in boxelder too. Also my guess is that your face is too narrow and you are leaving too thick of a hinge. Bore out the heart wood (if any) and put a snipe on it.


----------



## forestryworks (Aug 15, 2012)

TexasTimbers said:


> but I wanted to see if it really would barber



Unwise.


----------



## tramp bushler (Aug 17, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Unwise.


.

No, sometimes you gotta push the envelope. Better to learn when too much is too much when you have a place to git to than to be stuck in a situation and not know the outcome. 
Thats how ya learn things like how much of a Russian coupling to Buck into a tree that's spanning a draw. Or when too much wind is too much..
Yesterday I cut in the wind, just a good breeze really. It was a God send! Sometimes I'd have half the back cut in then wait, couple times for up to 2 minutes. Never got pinched all day. But it was lots of cutting in the wind that taught me when to wait and when to Hog oner. !


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 17, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Unwise.



I was prepared to get replies like this, and take no offense at all. I might have replied the same way. When you see the tree you may change your mind - maybe not. Small trees can kill or maim also I know it as well as any, but this was as close to a controlled barber as it gets. Thanks for the input though and normally I would agree.


----------



## northmanlogging (Aug 17, 2012)

I was "lucky" enough to have the step drunk around to try all the stupid things you can think of with a chainsaw. My uncle and ma are the ones that taught me how to really run a saw, yes I said my ma, :msp_ohmy: the step drunk on the other hand was just too stupid to know when he was about to die, worst chair I ever saw took his ball cap off but missed his head....still don't like falling in the wind though


----------



## TexasTimbers (Aug 17, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> I was "lucky" enough to have the step drunk around to try all the stupid things you can think of with a chainsaw. My uncle and ma are the ones that taught me how to really run a saw, yes I said my ma, :msp_ohmy: the step drunk on the other hand was just too stupid to know when he was about to die, worst chair I ever saw took his ball cap off but missed his head....still don't like falling in the wind though



The only thing that mixes well with excessive alcohol is stupidity.


----------



## 056 kid (Aug 17, 2012)

.I had a friend that knew a guy that would let good tie logs chair so he could finish a load of pulp faster. I would never do that though...


----------



## rwoods (Dec 1, 2012)

*A little help, please.*

I have a nice fir with a heavy lean; a typical mountain tree with a crook in the stem. It is too expensive of a stick to risk a barber chair. Can’t do a bore cut, the south Florida tongue and groove or a Leatherman, and I am not sure if I should try a Coos Bay (Tee or Triangle) given the stem size. I've given up on the chainsaw forum as most of them don't even know how to sight in a saw so any help you could give me would be appreciated. 

I know that someone will likely post that irritating reply that more information is needed so here is all I can tell you: First, despite my annual protests that I put them down not up, I once again got the assignment to put up the family Christmas tree. My best efforts notwithstanding, this year’s tree has already fallen over four times. It is now upright, tied to the wall but leaning precariously - totally unacceptable to the powers that be. I have tried to explain that the remedy is over my pay grade as the stem has a crook at the base, which is what you get when you buy a tree in the dark. I couldn’t make the case so it looks like I am going to have to fall that tree and cut out the crook. In addition to the safety considerations, I need to know the cut that will produce the smallest amount of sawdust and which will have exceptional directional control as the tree has to miss both the candles and the manger scene. 

With much thanks and wishes for a Merry Christmas, Ron


----------



## RandyMac (Dec 1, 2012)

Big eye-bolt from ceiling Ron.


----------



## paccity (Dec 1, 2012)

a slopping back cut will make it do all you want it to.:msp_wink: merrychristmas ron and to all.


----------



## rwoods (Dec 1, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Big eye-bolt from ceiling Ron.



My way of thinking as well, but unacceptable to the boss. Ron


----------



## RandyMac (Dec 1, 2012)

Ron, big rebar in floor.


----------



## rwoods (Dec 1, 2012)

paccity said:


> a slopping back cut will make it do all you want it to.:msp_wink: merrychristmas ron and to all.



Thanks, but due to AS I have repented and no longer purposely do farmer's cuts. :smile: Ron


----------



## rwoods (Dec 1, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Ron, big rebar in floor.



Now you are talking. It wouldn't even be noticed until the first of the year. Ron


----------



## northmanlogging (Dec 1, 2012)

get some good strong bull rope (like 25 lb test) and run a series of guy lines through out the landing (cup hooks in the ceiling) make sure to put a choker around that stupid tree hugger that climbed to the top (the "angel" unless you use a star than just drape some tinsel off the guy lines and call it a comet...)

If the war dept. (the missus) wont let you set up some tail holds on the ceiling wrap some cinder blocks in last years paper and make some dead man tail holds out of those.

Could ya call in the high climber and have him top it a little maybe take some of the weight off of one side...

Legend has it the norskys hung the tree from the ceiling anyway,


----------



## slowp (Dec 1, 2012)

View attachment 264955
View attachment 264956


You'll need to fling the long butt out the door so maybe get a mini mini loader too.


----------



## flushcut (Dec 1, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> get some good strong bull rope (like 25 lb test) and run a series of guy lines through out the landing (cup hooks in the ceiling) make sure to put a choker around that stupid tree hugger that climbed to the top (the "angel" unless you use a star than just drape some tinsel off the guy lines and call it a comet...)
> 
> If the war dept. (the missus) wont let you set up some tail holds on the ceiling wrap some cinder blocks in last years paper and make some dead man tail holds out of those.
> 
> ...



This by far has to be the best advice I have ever read on AS.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 1, 2012)

RC helicopter.


----------



## knothole (Dec 1, 2012)

Back to the serious side of things..... I'm the schmuck who should not be in this thread but I saw it and here i am. I'll come right out and tell you all that I don't know #### from shineola about felling serious trees and doing tree work in general. I've cut alot of wood over my several years, firewood, and NEVER experienced what this thread is covering until last week. The last two years me and my neighbor have been working in a stand of dead "yellow" (might be honey locust?) locust that is de-barked and almost branchless except for the tops. We both use the notch and cut method depending where you want the tree to go. (hopefully) These trees have always been consistent with regard to excellent quality, solid wood throughout the cut. What I'm trying to say is they were about as "predictable" as I think a tree can be as far as going where you want it too. I found a section of these things with punky and rotten cores and the second one I cut cost me my bar and chain and almost a pair of shorts. I notched the fall too side, went around and started cutting her down. I got about 2/3rd's the way through and the tree went CRACK, twisted to my right and I swear jumped off the stump taking my saw with it. I was already hauling ass, I like three get away routes if I can... Long story short, the tree did fall the right way after this drama but I lost my bar and chain. I believe the CB cut would have helped here. Never knew it existed. This also serves as a note to the "rookies". Admit it or not. I'm a rookie and I've got all my digits. Tons of scars, busted bones etc., and I damn sure don't know everything. Oh, the saw was a craftsman so no great shakes with the loss but she did the job for 10+ years. I'm liking the husky way better. Thanks for reading.
Scott


----------



## gapl1953 (Dec 1, 2012)

I might a well speak up also. I have used the "T" variation of the coos bay cut because I still feel safer using it than the Beranek's cut, as far as my misjudging the side lean. I have also learned to bind the base of the log, when in doubt every little bit counts.

Greg


----------



## slowp (Dec 1, 2012)

When you toss the slash off the landing, make sure Barbie is out of the way!


----------



## rwoods (Dec 1, 2012)

knothole said:


> Back to the serious side of things..... I'm the schmuck who should not be in this thread but I saw it and here i am. I'll come right out and tell you all that I don't know #### from shineola about felling serious trees and doing tree work in general. I've cut alot of wood over my several years, firewood, and NEVER experienced what this thread is covering until last week. The last two years me and my neighbor have been working in a stand of dead "yellow" (might be honey locust?) locust that is de-barked and almost branchless except for the tops. We both use the notch and cut method depending where you want the tree to go. (hopefully) These trees have always been consistent with regard to excellent quality, solid wood throughout the cut. What I'm trying to say is they were about as "predictable" as I think a tree can be as far as going where you want it too. I found a section of these things with punky and rotten cores and the second one I cut cost me my bar and chain and almost a pair of shorts. I notched the fall too side, went around and started cutting her down. I got about 2/3rd's the way through and the tree went CRACK, twisted to my right and I swear jumped off the stump taking my saw with it. I was already hauling ass, I like three get away routes if I can... Long story short, the tree did fall the right way after this drama but I lost my bar and chain. I believe the CB cut would have helped here. Never knew it existed. This also serves as a note to the "rookies". Admit it or not. I'm a rookie and I've got all my digits. Tons of scars, busted bones etc., and I damn sure don't know everything. Oh, the saw was a craftsman so no great shakes with the loss but she did the job for 10+ years. I'm liking the husky way better. Thanks for reading.
> Scott



Scott, I am no pro but in case you are wondering the Leatherman cut doesn't exist and is just a joke; the south Florida tongue and groove is an actual cut promoted on YouTube but in my humble non-professional opinion it should be considered a joke; the bore cut can be a very useful cut but in my humble non-professional opinion it is a cut that is overly promoted and carries risks that aren't always explained; and the Coos Bay variations are two of many other cuts worth learning. You in the right spot to learn. I owe a lot to the folks that post in this forum. Ron


----------



## Gologit (Dec 1, 2012)

rwoods said:


> Scott, I am no pro but in case you are wondering the Leatherman cut doesn't exist and is just a joke; the south Florida tongue and groove is an actual cut promoted on YouTube but in my humble non-professional opinion it should be considered a joke; the bore cut can be a very useful cut but in my humble non-professional opinion it is a cut that is overly promoted and carries risks that aren't always explained; and the Coos Bay variations are two of many other cuts worth learning. You in the right spot to learn. I owe a lot to the folks that post in this forum. Ron



You forgot to warn him about the slopping back cut.


----------



## rwoods (Dec 1, 2012)

Gologit said:


> You forgot to warn him about the slopping back cut.



:taped: I used to cut that way on plate size trees. I never thought through the physics of that cut until I joined AS. I don't intentionally cut that way anymore. But the sloping backcut / farmer's cut is a feature of the Leatherman II. :msp_smile: Ron


----------



## knothole (Dec 2, 2012)

Huh, and here i thought a Leatherman was a tool....lol. So, this cut, which I use the heck out of, is called a farmer's cut/ sloping (sloppy lol) back cut? I want to be sure I'm using the "correct" terminology as I'm not the hottest burning candle on the mantle. This type of cut has worked fine until I stumbled into these rotted one's. Also, the rot was on the business side of the cut and not visible in the notch cut and as such I found it the hard way. My eyes are wide open now.
As far as the bore cut, I'll stay away from that one. I don't ever see a need for a 435 being used in a bore cut scenario eh? I am definitely going to give the CB cut a go the next time. Most of these locust are no more than 14" in diameter and about 80-100' tall max. As I found out, they do take off when they break off! :msp_scared:
I appreciate the help and I'm sure glad I found this place.


----------



## rwoods (Dec 2, 2012)

knothole said:


> Huh, and here i thought a Leatherman was a tool....lol. So, this cut, which I use the heck out of, is called a farmer's cut/ sloping (sloppy lol) back cut? I want to be sure I'm using the "correct" terminology as I'm not the hottest burning candle on the mantle. This type of cut has worked fine until I stumbled into these rotted one's. Also, the rot was on the business side of the cut and not visible in the notch cut and as such I found it the hard way. My eyes are wide open now.
> As far as the bore cut, I'll stay away from that one. I don't ever see a need for a 435 being used in a bore cut scenario eh? I am definitely going to give the CB cut a go the next time. Most of these locust are no more than 14" in diameter and about 80-100' tall max. As I found out, they do take off when they break off! :msp_scared:
> I appreciate the help and I'm sure glad I found this place.



Terminology can be tricky around here. I assumed from your original post of "notch and cut" that your "notch" was the face cut and your "cut" was the back cut; I didn't see where you descibed a sloping backcut. Nevertheless, your back cut should be level not angled downward as is very common among us self-taught non-professionals. :msp_smile: Ron


----------



## 2dogs (Dec 2, 2012)

rwoods said:


> I have a nice fir with a heavy lean; a typical mountain tree with a crook in the stem. It is too expensive of a stick to risk a barber chair. Can’t do a bore cut, the south Florida tongue and groove or a Leatherman, and I am not sure if I should try a Coos Bay (Tee or Triangle) given the stem size. I've given up on the chainsaw forum as most of them don't even know how to sight in a saw so any help you could give me would be appreciated.
> 
> I know that someone will likely post that irritating reply that more information is needed so here is all I can tell you: First, despite my annual protests that I put them down not up, I once again got the assignment to put up the family Christmas tree. My best efforts notwithstanding, this year’s tree has already fallen over four times. It is now upright, tied to the wall but leaning precariously - totally unacceptable to the powers that be. I have tried to explain that the remedy is over my pay grade as the stem has a crook at the base, which is what you get when you buy a tree in the dark. I couldn’t make the case so it looks like I am going to have to fall that tree and cut out the crook. In addition to the safety considerations, I need to know the cut that will produce the smallest amount of sawdust and which will have exceptional directional control as the tree has to miss both the candles and the manger scene.
> 
> With much thanks and wishes for a Merry Christmas, Ron



I've stayed out of this discussion so far. But now you guys are working in my area of expertise, erecting Christmas trees. OK here we go. Listen and listen good.

Firstly get a non-drilled self sealing water bowl from the lot. You will need two 3' long 2x6 boards. One of these needs a 6" long piece of 2x6 screwed to bottom of each end. Using a 1 1/4" flat bit drill a hole a half inch deep in the 2x6 without the extra pieces screwed on. That is the bottom board. Next drill a half inch hole in the center of both boards and the center of the water bowl. Now drill a 7/16" hole ten inches into the butt of the tree. This hole has to be aligned perfectly! Next start a 10"x1/2" lag bolt through the water bowl and through the 2x6 with the extra boards. An inch deep is fine. Then drive two thirty penny galvanized spikes through the 2x6 and the water bowl into the butt. Remove the lag bolt and line up the remaining 2x6 with the countersunk hole down. Screw the lag bolt and washer down tight. On large trees a 1x1 1/2" board 16" long can be nailed at a 45 degree angle between the stand and the tree.

If all this is too cerebral for you loggers and lawn fairies then just crawl under the house with an impact wrench and drive a 12" long lag bolt up through the floor and into the butt of the tree.


----------



## gapl1953 (Dec 2, 2012)

2dogs said:


> I've stayed out of this discussion so far. But now you guys are working in my area of expertise, erecting Christmas trees. OK here we go. Listen and listen good.
> 
> Firstly get a non-drilled self sealing water bowl from the lot. You will need two 3' long 2x6 boards. One of these needs a 6" long piece of 2x6 screwed to bottom of each end. Using a 1 1/4" flat bit drill a hole a half inch deep in the 2x6 without the extra pieces screwed on. That is the bottom board. Next drill a half inch hole in the center of both boards and the center of the water bowl. Now drill a 7/16" hole ten inches into the butt of the tree. This hole has to be aligned perfectly! Next start a 10"x1/2" lag bolt through the water bowl and through the 2x6 with the extra boards. An inch deep is fine. Then drive two thirty penny galvanized spikes through the 2x6 and the water bowl into the butt. Remove the lag bolt and line up the remaining 2x6 with the countersunk hole down. Screw the lag bolt and washer down tight. On large trees a 1x1 1/2" board 16" long can be nailed at a 45 degree angle between the stand and the tree.
> 
> If all this is too cerebral for you loggers and lawn fairies then just crawl under the house with an impact wrench and drive a 12" long lag bolt up through the floor and into the butt of the tree.



Lag bolt thru the floor sounds like the way to go, a lot easier and faster. :good:

Greg


----------



## arborealbuffoon (Dec 2, 2012)

I love it! Shouldn't the Christmas tree installation and rigging topic have its own thread? And, maybe a special room where the loggers can go beat up the lawn fairies..

But what do I know, anyhow. I AM technically trespassing here in Logger's world. Old wood wh$res are pretty much universally scorned, so I'm used to being picked on by pernicious pricks.


----------



## RandyMac (Dec 2, 2012)

Ya lost me at" non-drilled self sealing water bowl", draw some pitchers.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 2, 2012)

arborealbuffoon said:


> I love it! Shouldn't the Christmas tree installation and rigging topic have its own thread?



No.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 2, 2012)

2dogs said:


> I've stayed out of this discussion so far. But now you guys are working in my area of expertise, erecting Christmas trees. OK here we go. Listen and listen good.
> 
> 
> 
> If all this is too cerebral for you loggers and lawn fairies then just crawl under the house with an impact wrench and drive a 12" long lag bolt up through the floor and into the butt of the tree.



But, but, but...that would require going _outside._ It's _raining_ outside.


Edit...Maybe I could just cut a hole in the living room floor, jam the tree down into the hole until the first branches stabilized it. Yeah...I like that. If it's wobbly I could shim it up with old issues of Reader's Digest and small blue wedges.
I'll need a saw, though.


----------



## 2dogs (Dec 2, 2012)

Gologit said:


> But, but, but...that would require going _outside._ It's _raining_ outside.
> 
> 
> Edit...Maybe I could just cut a hole in the living room floor, jam the tree down into the hole until the first branches stabilized it. Yeah...I like that. If it's wobbly I could shim it up with old issues of Reader's Digest and small blue wedges.
> I'll need a saw, though.



I believe the young woman from Warshinton must be consulted on the topic of Christmas tree wedge color. Maybe you could use your new suspenders as a twister.


----------



## RandyMac (Dec 2, 2012)

Stick it in a bucket, prop it up in a corner.


----------



## northmanlogging (Dec 2, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Stick it in a bucket, prop it up in a corner.



but that is just to easy... need to get 10-20 of em and stack em on their sides in the living room.
Remember to sort by species and diameter...


----------



## Eccentric (Dec 2, 2012)

*Holy crap.....................I have an answer to a question in the F&L thread.*



RandyMac said:


> Ya lost me at" non-drilled self sealing water bowl", draw some pitchers.



Fortex Round Feeder, 1 gal. Capacity, Black - 2171360 | Tractor Supply Company


----------



## 2dogs (Dec 3, 2012)

Eccentric said:


> Fortex Round Feeder, 1 gal. Capacity, Black - 2171360 | Tractor Supply Company



Nope. Sorry.

Plastic Bowls-Christmas Tree Lot Supplies-Pursell Manufacturing


----------



## Eccentric (Dec 3, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Nope. Sorry.
> 
> Plastic Bowls-Christmas Tree Lot Supplies-Pursell Manufacturing



I never said it was the _right_ answer...


----------

