# tree butchers LLC



## murphy4trees (Apr 15, 2009)

Someone asked if it was Ricks that did the work in the thread I started yesterday about the fairly easy tree that took 7 men and a crane 12 hours to do. No that was not ricks , but this is. I see this butchery every time they prune a tree. How can you have 6 crews, two cranes, a tub grinder, lots of 75' bucket trucks etc, and not have one real arborist that knows how to prune a tree. I tell all my potential customers that he's fine if you want to get rid of big trees, but don't let him prune your trees.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

" Well lets just lift them there lower limbs up a little, that el make er look purdy guud boys. "


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## teamtree (Apr 15, 2009)

At the risk of sounding stupid....what is the major problem with those trees? 

Assuming the client wanted the shade raised, it looks like a little bit of lion tailing. The canopy could have thinned out a little more. Some of the lower limb pruning should have been done years ago.

I have done work like that at the customers request before. But then again, rarely do I get to prune a tree they way it should be without the customer wanting more gone.

Just wondering what I am missing or if the pic tells the whole story....or more importantly...what your point was.....sorry....

You have to forgive me, where I live it is all about volume when you prune so 90% of my calls for quotes or for topping and butchering....I am usually fighting worse stuff than in the pic you provided.

I do understand what you are saying...just curious as to how you would have done it differently.

Like the following pic....


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

teamtree said:


> At the risk of sounding stupid....what is the major problem with those trees?
> 
> Assuming the client wanted the shade raised, it looks like a little bit of lion tailing. The canopy could have thinned out a little more. Some of the lower limb pruning should have been done years ago.
> 
> ...



Mabey the HO just wanted to raise the limbs up so you could see the house better from the road? But, I would have done a better job of convincing them that their trees would look a little funny like that. And I definatly would not have put my company logo at the base of those trees without an even and balanced trim job on them. Its all about quality baby!!


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## tree md (Apr 15, 2009)

I bet they used a pole saw... :monkey:


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

Eh, trust me Murph, I feel we share similar opinions and beliefs. I rest at night knowing I try to do the right thing.....and I'm sure you do the same. There will come a time when it will come around on that fellow....

Lets just keep educating the public one proper tree care job at a time.


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## teamtree (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok....Are you saying you never do something against good sound tree care standards due to the customers demand? If so, I am happy for you. 

I find it to be a struggle to find customers to understand less is better...maybe that is why I try to do more removals than anything....little to be left for discussion when the tree is gone. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and I think quality is the key but quite a bit of this industry is based upon practices that go against good tree care standards. 

How many arborists prune for nothing more than view? No reason to remove the limb other than to improve the view. Not science. How many people stick to the 5 rules of pruning? 

And, who is to say the customer should not have a say in what their trees look like....it is their property. 

In the case of the picture taken, for instance and hypothectically, maybe a certified arborist walked away from the job becuase the homeowner wanted it done the way he wanted and the company that did it was happy to oblige the customer. 

Good tree care bad tree care.....does it really matter....the customer is happy...it is America....I can tell you most of my competitors are better off than me because they do what the customer wants regardless of good tree care standards.

I love customers that let me do my thing and they get quality. If a customer tells me to cut at this point....I say ok or I would not do that...if they say why...I tell them....if they say I want to see the river so cut half the tree off like I asked you to and stop with all that scientific talk....I then have the choice to leave. The common response is if it dies it dies.

At the end of the day....while we have the obligation to do the right thing and educate our customers....we need to understand that the customer has rights to do what they want and as long as they do, there will be somebody that will do something that someone else says they will not do. 

Ok...to turn it around....why did the arborist making the post not get this particular job? Is there a story behind it? 

I could take pics of everything done wrong in tree care by other companies in my county alone...I could fill this site up with enough pics to last 10 years.

I guess my point is really this....customers are for the most part blind to our struggles but they have the cash.

I love to educate someone and then have them tell me they love their trees after we are done. 

Sorry for being the devil's advocate.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 15, 2009)

I don't know about pruning norhern trees ,but a lot of people have their trees trimmed like that down here,and the trees thrive.A lot of people think the trees compliment the house that way,rather than hide it.


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## Tree Pig (Apr 15, 2009)

Correct me if I am wrong here I am not an expert on true arborist practices. But I was always under the belief that this is a bad time to be pruning now. Unhealthy to prune budding tree or fall when leaves are dropping. I know this is true on certain trees but I always just use it as a guideline.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I don't know about pruning norhern trees ,but a lot of people have their trees trimmed like that down here,and the trees thrive.A lot of people think the trees compliment the house that way,rather than hide it.



Well of coarse the trees wont die. They will thrive and do well even when cut like those in the pics. They just look funny. And I agree with Teamtree because there are only a handfull of people on this site that havent broke the "rules of pruning". What about those limbs way at the top of the tree at the end of the day when your really tired. You make the cut, "oh man i cut a little outside the collar on that one. Oh screw it the HO will never see it anyway". And down the tree you go. My point is that nobody does it perfect all the time. As far as talking the HO into pruning their trees how they are supposed to be pruned goes, we as arborists need to know as much as possible and learn all the key terms. If we can fluently use words like compartmentalization and sound like we know what we are talking about to the HO, we should have no problem talking them into letting us "work our magic" and do the things we have been trained to do. I personally would have thinned those tops out a little. There is just something in me that wont let me leave a tree looking like crap. I try to take pride in what I do and will settle for nothing less!


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## ozzy42 (Apr 15, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> Well of coarse the trees wont die. They will thrive and do well even when cut like those in the pics. They just look funny. And I agree with Teamtree because there are only a handfull of people on this site that havent broke the "rules of pruning". What about those limbs way at the top of the tree at the end of the day when your really tired. You make the cut, "oh man i cut a little outside the collar on that one. Oh screw it the HO will never see it anyway". And down the tree you go. My point is that nobody does it perfect all the time. As far as talking the HO into pruning their trees how they are supposed to be pruned goes, we as arborists need to know as much as possible and learn all the key terms. If we can fluently use words like compartmentalization and sound like we know what we are talking about to the HO, we should have no problem talking them into letting us "work our magic" and do the things we have been trained to do. I personally would have thinned those tops out a little. There is just something in me that wont let me leave a tree looking like crap. I try to take pride in what I do and will settle for nothing less!




I totally agree with taking pride in what you do,and I do likewise,when the customer says "do what you think is best". But more often than not the HO has in his or her mind what THEY want done with the tree ,and are going to get it one way or the other.
I will do what ever makes them happy.It is their tree,and their money.

A happy customer is a paying customer,and most of the time a repeat customer.


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks for being happy for me, teamtree. I have turned down a job recently, actually where the client wanted me to remove the central lead out of a 6' dbh _Quercus rubra_ that was dead due to a 45 year old lightning strike. He asked for my advice and if I would give him a price on what I recommended. I recommended complete removal. The tree would not be able to sustain much longer and the central leader was so decayed I would not even want to tie in to it. It was a crane removal for sure. I gave a very reasonable price, and explained why I would not just "remove what would hit his house". The tree was situated so that the other two main limbs (24" dia) extended over two neighbors properties. From the looks there was a crack that ran from the top of the central lead all the way down to the base, and it was at least 2 inches wide at the bottom. If I did what he originally wanted and "just took out the middle", I would be negligent. I would feel horrible, and lose everything I have if someone were killed because I just wanted to get in there, get a buck, and just do what the client wanted. 
I gave my price, and he ended up getting someone else to "get the middle out"....and it looks atrocious.
That is an extreme situation. But I have had much success with educating my clients as I prescribe my services for the right reasons. I try to balance the clients needs with what is practical, arboriculturally correct, and safe. 

So I lose a client that could have cost me my business if later on that tree killed someone, I'd rather that be on the hack's shoulders than mine.

On the note of proper pruning. If someone asks me to lion tail the tree like that, and I were to do it, I feel that my quality of work would be compromised. I will not do a job that I cannot be proud of. Its not just wood.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 15, 2009)

I'll tell you what's wrong with it, some dimwit pencil pusher decided at one time or another that he would start this "what's good for the tree" arborist thing and now anytime some arborist see someone making money by giving the customer *exactly what they wanted* they can't stand it knowing that someone got paid to do it........

I personally see nothing wrong with those trees, the customer most likely came home one day and said "I sure would like to be able to see my house from the road" so they hired Rick's to fix it so they could.


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## capetrees (Apr 15, 2009)

Is the customer happy?

Did the check clear?

Did you make a profit for the days work?

If all is answered yes, move on.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I totally agree with taking pride in what you do,and I do likewise,when the customer says "do what you think is best". But more often than not the HO has in his or her mind what THEY want done with the tree ,and are going to get it one way or the other.
> I will do what ever makes them happy.It is their tree,and their money.
> 
> A happy customer is a paying customer,and most of the time a repeat customer.



What if they asked you to top their trees?


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I'll tell you what's wrong with it, some dimwit pencil pusher decided at one time or another that he would start this "what's good for the tree" arborist thing and now anytime some arborist see someone making money by giving the customer *exactly what they wanted* they can't stand it knowing that someone got paid to do it........
> 
> I personally see nothing wrong with those trees, the customer most likely came home one day and said "I sure would like to be able to see my house from the road" so they hired Rick's to fix it so they could.



If you have a problem with "ARBORISTS" mabey you need to post your comments somewhere else. Its people like you that give Tree Workers a bad name. Do you even care about trees or are you just in it for a quick dollar? Sounds to me that you know very little about arboriculture or even care about it. You sound like you worked for Asplund doing line clearance where it doesnt matter what kind of job you do on the tree, just cut as many as you can in a day and move on down the road.


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## talloak (Apr 15, 2009)

lets see feed my kids or top these trees where you want it cut:greenchainsaw:


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## Henry111 (Apr 15, 2009)

7yrs years in buissness. 16yrs in trees, at first i was to proud to top trees because i know better, but after a few hard money times i got over it fast, not to mention those customers that get what they want are my most happy ones. ROCK ON.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

it not about pride its about doing whats best for the tree and any future occupants of the property. If a tree is so close to the house that it must be topped to be safe then it should be removed.


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

Lets see, one CORRECT pruning job for 1500 or two incorrect ones for 400.....I think I'll take care to make the right limbs go for the right reasons, make the right cuts (yes we ALL make mistakes on a few cuts here and there, human error), and not have to move the truck to the next job and waste all of that fuel for the el cheapo "cut here" job.

I have a passion for arboriculture. I study arboriculture. I enjoy learning more about it everyday, and I feel that by definition - An Arborist is a "professional who possesses the technical competence gained through experience and related training to provide for or supervise the management of trees and other woody plants in residential, commercial, and public landscapes. (From the ISA)"
Think of us as Tree Physicians.

So yes, when we arborists go to the effort to make the right decisions and charge a fair price and a bunch of hacks go around an just "cut stuff", I get a little annoyed because they present something that is INCORRECT to the public, which can train the public eye for the wrong idea of tree care.


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

Monkeyman, keep the faith. Thanks for the support.


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## talloak (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree but the shame of things is that people and there property make alot of our decisions if everyone was practicing proper arborculture this vwould not be an issue but thanks to guys with no pride we have to deal with it.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 15, 2009)

limbwalker54 said:


> Lets see, one CORRECT pruning job for 1500 or two incorrect ones for 400.....I think I'll take care to make the right limbs go for the right reasons, make the right cuts (yes we ALL make mistakes on a few cuts here and there, human error), and not have to move the truck to the next job and waste all of that fuel for the el cheapo "cut here" job.
> 
> I have a passion for arboriculture. I study arboriculture. I enjoy learning more about it everyday, and I feel that by definition - An Arborist is a "professional who possesses the technical competence gained through experience and related training to provide for or supervise the management of trees and other woody plants in residential, commercial, and public landscapes. (From the ISA)"
> Think of us as Tree Physicians.
> ...


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## Henry111 (Apr 15, 2009)

with out pride in our work pal, we all would be the uneducated fools that most people still think we are. RIGHT?


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

I will continue to walk away from the jobs that ask me to do something that is of incorrect judgement or inferior quality. And I will continue to do so knowing that not every client was meant to be my client.


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## JTinaTree (Apr 15, 2009)

Murphy, those tree's look good compared to what's done in my small town.. I saw a GOON last year towing a rent-a-lift behind his pickup.. This guy cut a Mature Willow Oak down to like 25ft, It pisses me off every time i ride by it..

I had to restrain myself from knocking on the homeowners door and asking them if they Paid Money for him to destroy there Oak Tree..


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks again Monkeyman!


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## limbwalker54 (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm going to sleep. Goodnight and hope to read some more on this thread tomorrow evening.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 15, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> If you have a problem with "ARBORISTS" mabey you need to post your comments somewhere else. Its people like you that give Tree Workers a bad name. Do you even care about trees or are you just in it for a quick dollar? Sounds to me that you know very little about arboriculture or even care about it. You sound like you worked for Asplund doing line clearance where it doesnt matter what kind of job you do on the tree, just cut as many as you can in a day and move on down the road.


You better get to know me before you try to act like you do, you have no clue and yes I did work for Asplundh & Davey for that matter and we made proper cuts, you might not like the end results but it was done right.......

As for type of job I do, I do what I'm getting paid to do and do it well and if it isn't right in your book so be it, I'll sleep just as good night and I'm always looking for the quick dollar, who isn't..........


As for caring about trees I don't care about them as much as you do & probably never will, it's kind of like PETA & animals, people like you are the PETA of trees.

arboriculture: nope, never studied the subject and probably never will.

But it all doesn't matter much to me, 95% of my work is removals of dangerous trees.......


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## clearance (Apr 15, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> If you have a problem with "ARBORISTS" mabey you need to post your comments somewhere else. Its people like you that give Tree Workers a bad name. Do you even care about trees or are you just in it for a quick dollar? Sounds to me that you know very little about arboriculture or even care about it. You sound like you worked for Asplund doing line clearance where it doesnt matter what kind of job you do on the tree, just cut as many as you can in a day and move on down the road.



I worked for Asplundh and made proper cuts, all the time. How quick some are to badmouth the most important treeworkers of all, the utility guys. A dangerous task, in which it is impossible to please everyone. "Why don't you just bury those powerlines....." 
"'cause the shovel is broken....."

Rf made, as he usually does, a very true comment. The customer got what they wanted, end of story.


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## talloak (Apr 15, 2009)

You know i started at aspluhdh i even know how to spell it and they keep people with elactric so there doing there job .Now i own my own tree care service and have worked for good proper tree companies but give a line clearence contract and you wont know any difference in the trimming so amen to brother i love what i do put if it didnt pay the bills i wouldnt be doing it:greenchainsaw:


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## Rftreeman (Apr 15, 2009)

clearance said:


> I worked for Asplundh and made proper cuts, all the time. How quick some are to badmouth the most important treeworkers of all, the utility guys. A dangerous task, in which it is impossible to please everyone. "Why don't you just bury those powerlines....."
> "'cause the shovel is broken....."
> 
> Rf made, as he usually does, a very true comment. The customer got what they wanted, end of story.


Now you know we's just some old dumb redneck utility hacks............lol

 I got a big red rep point for my honest post.......


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## tree md (Apr 15, 2009)

opcorn:


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## murphy4trees (Apr 15, 2009)

*i miss the good old days*

I've been a member on this site since 2002... does anyone remember the days when guys that posted comments like "what's wrong with that" or "give the customer what they want and cash the check", would have been run off, chewed up and spit out in 15 minutes?... That kind of attitude wasn't tolerated and no one would buck the group conscensus and want to come back for more... This thread is a true testement to just how low the level of awareness and competency at this site has become... 

Now I know the company that pruned these maples and I just had to try to "fix" a beatiful 40"+ dbh red oak that they lion's tailed. When I used the term "lions tail", the customer said "that's a self explanatory description", looking up at the tree. She was a teacher in medical school, highly educated and vowed to write them a strong letter and tell all her neighbors. She didn't ask for her tree to be butchered. That is just what they do.

I lost a job to him in my own neighborhood a couple years ago... mostly backyard removals and pruning one large chinese elm. Now I was looking at the elm and planning routes through the entire canopy planning on lightening every large limb on the tree. They ended up making flush cuts to elevate the thing to 45' and NO OTHER CUT on the tree. Same as those maples... They elevated the trees and made no other cut in the tree.

And check out this pics. Those are all flush cuts, every single cut violating the branch protection zone, which will without a doubt eventually lead to complete decay of the existing wood. The tree will become unsafe and either fail or need to be removed pre-maturely. SO yes they killed the tree. It's just gonna take 20 years!

Now I didn't bid on this job, I was just driving by in the neighborhood as they were finishing up. And they put their lawn sign on the street. I put it under the tree. There were at least three removals in the backyard. He's a removal guy. He should stick to that or learn how to prune a tree. And so should you.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 16, 2009)

Except for the utility fellas no one is forcing you to cut the tree. If you and the customer cannot reach an agreement then move on. When you see a tree that has been maligned keep note of it. Showing customers their options and the later results by example can do a lot more than the technical jargon.

I think Don Blair would say this sounds like an Oak man Euc man thread!LOL!


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2009)

I have been around for a minute too. I kind of miss the days when someone asked a straight forward question like "why not do that" or "why is that wrong" and would get a straight forward answer without being belittled and the thread digressing into a free for all.

Just my .02


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## Henry111 (Apr 16, 2009)

i know what your talking about man, its hard to swallow when my price for pruning gets cut in half and i ride by
later to see bad workmanship. And the HO thinks they got a deal, the same work for less money.  its nice to know there is other arborist out there who know my pain.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 16, 2009)

Choices are simple but difficult. Salesmanship is critical, so are references from customers pleased with proper workmanship. You can offer quality work at a competitive price to run the hacks off of your turf, even questioning them when they are at work ruining a tree, and in some areas around the country laws are in place to stop these individuals. I enjoy talking to people and getting them to explain why they do things and/or their reasoning. Customers too, what they want, what is good for the tree, the way the tree will look several years later. Pictures are worth a thousand words. When I show customers pictures of topped trees after several years they see the good, the bad, and the ugly. It saves a lot of talking.


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## clearance (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> I've been a member on this site since 2002... does anyone remember the days when guys that posted comments like "what's wrong with that" or "give the customer what they want and cash the check", would have been run off, chewed up and spit out in 15 minutes?... That kind of attitude wasn't tolerated and no one would buck the group conscensus and want to come back for more... This thread is a true testement to just how low the level of awareness and competency at this site has become...



I have been a member of this site since 2005, I remember those days as well. When the ISA was held on a pedestal, and could do no wrong, nor could anyone question thier edicts or teachings. When bad mouthing utility guys was common, and went without question. When guys who had never worked around power would speak far outside thier area of expertise. 


I came here, was blunt, rude and straight to the point, but told it like it was at all times. I had it out with people, Tom Dunlap included. The ISA and some who fly its flag have taken some well deserved correction. Quite a few times. And now many stick up for utility guys, something that was rare before. I could have been more diplomatic, more bees with honey and all that. Now I have become more forgiving, less arguementative. Each to his own, live and let live.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 16, 2009)

I would have a beer wit ya Clearance!


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

People are weird and stubborn. They think if you trim off all the vertical limbs they're good to go. The one hanging down in their face in the last ice storm. 

Could I of done it better? YEP! But the person holding the check book gets to call the plays.

I'll do about anything they want, if I can't change their minds. 

Except top an oak tree. I've walked away from jobs if they wanted an oak tree topped and wouldn't listen to me.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 16, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> What if they asked you to top their trees?


That was real good of you ,modifying my text with the big bold letters and all.The only word in bold in my post was THEY,THE CUSTOMER,and so I will answer you last question,and see what you do with it this time.

WELL THEN A TOPPING I WILL GO


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## treeseer (Apr 16, 2009)

Thos trees are now a much higher risk of breaking or toppling in a storm. more topheavy, decay will come in on those big wounds, etc.

When the customer is dead wrong then when we follow that for the $ we r horz, and open to future liability when hacked trees fail.


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## Bermie (Apr 16, 2009)

When a customer asks me to top a tree...very common language here, I will say hmmm, ok, and then proceed to reduce it to branches capable of assuming the terminal role, leaving a taper from parent branch to twig, placing my cuts at suitable branch unions, create viewing avenues through the canopy

Voila one 'topped tree'...why beat 'em, turn the vernacular into a description for good work. It doesn't always work but I have gotten away with the 'subterfuge' on occasion!

I'm on to round three with one set of trees, reduced and thinned every two years, and when he phones, its "come and top my trees again will you." ( a fast growing species right on the coast necessary as a wind break)


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Thos trees are now a much higher risk of breaking or toppling in a storm. more topheavy, decay will come in on those big wounds, etc.
> 
> When the customer is dead wrong then when we follow that for the $ we r horz, and open to future liability when hacked trees fail.


So if they have their minds set on what they want and it can't be changed you walk away and go back home and get on the computer because you have nothing to do?

I get alot of jobs were the customer wasn't happy with the tree guy that gave them an estimate earlier or the day before. Said the guy didn't listen to what they wanted so that's why I'm there.

I explain all of what your talking about and give them options. The bottom line for businesses is the customer is always right. And if they ain't, they're the ones paying so what do we do?

You care about their trees more than putting food on your table?


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> I've been a member on this site since 2002... does anyone remember the days when guys that posted comments like "what's wrong with that" or "give the customer what they want and cash the check", would have been run off, chewed up and spit out in 15 minutes?... That kind of attitude wasn't tolerated and no one would buck the group conscensus and want to come back for more... This thread is a true testement to just how low the level of awareness and competency at this site has become...
> 
> Now I know the company that pruned these maples and I just had to try to "fix" a beatiful 40"+ dbh red oak that they lion's tailed. When I used the term "lions tail", the customer said "that's a self explanatory description", looking up at the tree. She was a teacher in medical school, highly educated and vowed to write them a strong letter and tell all her neighbors. She didn't ask for her tree to be butchered. That is just what they do.
> 
> ...


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> it not about pride its about doing whats best for the tree and any future occupants of the property. If a tree is so close to the house that it must be topped to be safe then it should be removed.


Oh we give them that option too.


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## Burvol (Apr 16, 2009)

You should continue your proffesionalism here, and in the field, not gut a counterpart on-line. 

I have cut timber with some real hacks that were a joke, but I felt no need to raise an issue; it was evident, and when it came time to lay people off they were the ones to go down the road. 

It seems you do good work, and I have read your posts and they seem to all be good, but this is a little on the "whinning" side. 

Nobody wants to hear the sad song. Plus you just flat out call him out! Did you call him at his personal number *recently* and gut him???


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey its not so bad, I didn't hear anything about spike marks. Now I am dyin. Wouldn't surprise me if that is what they did over at Rick's . Now , Rick, I didn't say nothing, Murphy is the one who out and out called you and your crews butchers. :hmm3grin2orange: 

Its one thing when the Ho wants it, its another when a company owner turns his bands of butchers loose. You can't say chit to me, just tell me where to point my saw,if you are certified or not and how you are planning to pay me. I would prefer if we not llok to much like idiots but if that is what you want don't bother mentioning my name.

I did tell a lady yesterday I wouldn't reduce the azaleas by half. "Not a good idea " , I said. And I never was a fan of the lion tail... cept on lions.


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

Burvol said:


> You should continue your proffesionalism here, and in the field, not gut a counterpart on-line.
> 
> I have cut timber with some real hacks that were a joke, but I felt no need to raise an issue; it was evident, and when it came time to lay people off they were the ones to go down the road.
> 
> ...



Personally, I would like to meet Rick.


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## Bermie (Apr 16, 2009)

Weather must be bad everywhere, look at all this chit chat in the middle of the morning...


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 16, 2009)

:deadhorse: Damn hacks!!!!!


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

Forgive me but I'm a little slow.
RickyTree of A.S. is the one who had that polesaw job?


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> :deadhorse: Damn hacks!!!!!







If you wanna pull your name from my friends list I'll understand.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 16, 2009)

I may be wrong but....I think part of the problem is this here.



> I lost a job to him in my own neighborhood a couple years ago...


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## murphy4trees (Apr 16, 2009)

No...
the problem here is lack of knowledge and care for arboriculture. We need to achoeve a critical mass of consciousness in the industry to stop improper pruning practices (amongst other things).

As far as Rick goes... He is universally hated by the local arborists around here for underbidding large tree removals and driving down pricing pretty much single handedly... I have heard at least one other tree guy say "I hope he dies" and Billy Neff at Main Line Mower, the local stihl dealer told me that he has bullet proof glass in his car and he has recieved death threats.

That is not my way... I AM a believer in the free market. If he can run a business and do the work cheaper, then good for him. This is America... That is what you are supposed to do. He has a helicopter, and bought Bret Myers' (phillies pitcher) Hummer for his estimator to drive around in looking at work. These things mean nothing to me. 

BUT when he hacks pruning work on every job I see. When all he does to prune trees is to cut off the lower limbs with flush cuts, then I want the world to know about it. Its unimaginable to me that a company with all those resources is still making flush cuts, lion's tailing and elevating on every job I see. It's like they must have been trained in how not to prune a tree.

And I AM not afraid of his prices. I can often do the job better without a crane and 75' bucket. I underbid him a couple years ago when a customer had gotten a price from him for a bunch of backyard removals. I put the trees on the ground with one cut, when he was going to use the crane. I did over $100/man/hour that day. That is how I get my jollies.... Using skill and knowledge to get work done, faster, easier, better and safer than the next guy.

Now if we could all agree that that is what we are here to learn and share with each other, how to develop our skill and knowledge to improve our business and profitability, then we'd be getting somewhere, instead of arguing about whether its good to do hack work or not... That is a waste of my time and energy and Ihave just about had it with the level of incompetence on this site.


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> No...
> the problem here is lack of knowledge and care for arboriculture. We need to achoeve a critical mass of consciousness in the industry to stop improper pruning practices (amongst other things).
> 
> As far as Rick goes... He is universally hated by the local arborists around here for underbidding large tree removals and driving down pricing pretty much single handedly... I have heard at least one other tree guy say "I hope he dies" and Billy Neff at Main Line Mower, the local stihl dealer told me that he has bullet proof glass in his car and he has recieved death threats.
> ...


If we all had a hottie wife yoga instructors supporting us, we 
could walk away from customers that would not listen to reason too.


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> No...
> the problem here is lack of knowledge and care for arboriculture. We need to achoeve a critical mass of consciousness in the industry to stop improper pruning practices (amongst other things).
> 
> As far as Rick goes... He is universally hated by the local arborists around here for underbidding large tree removals and driving down pricing pretty much single handedly... I have heard at least one other tree guy say "I hope he dies" and Billy Neff at Main Line Mower, the local stihl dealer told me that he has bullet proof glass in his car and he has recieved death threats.
> ...



The day I drove off with the gas nozzle still in the car I had walked over to John Westerman beforehand and asked how he was. He just flew into a ten minute rant about Rick right off the bat. Left me kinda dazed.


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Weather must be bad everywhere, look at all this chit chat in the middle of the morning...



Rick stole all the tree work.


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2009)

I haven't flat out walked away from a job but I have lost jobs because I wouldn't top a tree. I have almost always been able to talk the client out of topping after explaining to them why it's not good to do so. However, when they have their mind set on topping I just give them an estimate for crown reduction and dead wood and leave it up to them whether they call me or not. I've driven by and seen trees topped after I have advised against it. What are you going to do, it is their tree. I'll not top one though because I don't want to put my name on that kind of work. I think it will do more harm to your overall business in the long run than any benefit from a quick dollar. I talked a customer into a removal yesterday instead of basically topping the tree. The tree was storm damaged with every limb destroyed except for one lateral and there was a 3 foot tear where a main leader had peeled from ice damage. Had to do some talking to convince him but reason finally won the day. I understand wanting to save a tree but why do they want to leave the totem poles standing?

I hate seeing the flush cuts too. One of the board members at the condo complex I take care of thought they would save some money after we had done the first phase of pruning after the ice storm. He told the landscapers to do the heeling cuts on the trees after we had mitigated the hazards. The landscaper flush cut one nice oak in the front and the president of the HOA stopped him. I came out and met with a few members of the board and the landscaper. I called him right there in front of the board members on making the flush cuts and explained that those cuts would never heal. Needless to say that was the end of his pruning endeavors there.


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hell, I told this one dingbat, who wanted to get me in the middle of her war with the nieghbors, off real good. I told her how I thought she was very disrepectful to me to think I should drive out a listen to her BS. I said I wouldn't skin one side of those pines while her neighbors fired shots at me and besides, when she saw the price for it she wouldn't do it anyway. Not that I gave her a price even. 
We were walking back to look at the trees together and she is explaining how she wants to skin these trees all the way to the top on one side and about the war with the neighbors and she was such a freaking pysco I stopped walking beside her and went back to my truck. I said " Lady, you are $%^&%#@ NUTS!" I felt good about myself for doing it.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 16, 2009)

Thats a funny story. I have had the neighbor war thing happen to me too. It is comical to listen to how they talk about the neighbors when they are explaining what they want done to their side of the tree.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 16, 2009)

I have nothing against arborist but for the fact that most think they are the only ones that can do it right, I can show you some seriously *bad* work done by one of the local so called arborist that has been on TV telling people to only hire certified arborist for their tree work, have I ever lost a job because I'm not certified, sure 1 time but then I went back and told the lady when she wanted them stubs removed call me. I could post pictures but I won't, I don't feel like being sued.

My point is, just because you have a card and number doesn't make you the best there is, it's like a drivers license, some people have it and can't drive a damn lick........


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## ozzy42 (Apr 16, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> What if they asked you to top their trees?



You change the text in my post while quoting me ,and I call you on it ,you don't answer it but NEG rep me ,,,,WOW,And to add to that you are barely eligible to start giving rep to anybody with 83 post .Your off to a good start.

I have been on threads where we are talking about life and death situations and having strong disagreements and never been neg repd.
Well ,I guess those post were with other adults.


















Oh yeah,one more thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

*I'm so confused here.*

So a good tree guy/businessman/arborist, gets a job and does what's best for the tree, regardless what the customer wanted? 

When I first went out on my own, I would ask the people if they liked their trees and if so will you trust me and let me do what's best for your tree?

I made every tree a good candidate for a postal stamp with pride. :agree2:
But then when it was time to collect I would have to reclimb the tree and goofy trim it just to get paid.

Do I try and talk them out of goofy trimming their tree? 
Yes I do :agree2: but...
It only takes a few time of pulling the gear, helpers, rakes, etc. Back out of the trucks at the end of a day, till you listen to what they want and work around that.


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## clearance (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> waste of my time and energy and Ihave just about had it with the level of incompetence on this site.



Thats fine, you are too good for this site. I am just a utility guy, so, a hack.

I make proper cuts, but when I have to sidelimb a tree beside the line or top a tree under it, I guess I should just say no, call up my foreman, have a meeting with the utility rep, and start them planning to bury or move the line. I can tell them about proper treework, and although the utility rep is ISA certified, there is a slight chance he will tell me to go ahead anyways. Is that the deal? 

So long Murph, stay safe out there.


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

clearance said:


> Thats fine, you are too good for this site. I am just a utility guy, so, a hack.
> 
> I make proper cuts, but when I have to sidelimb a tree beside the line or top a tree under it, I guess I should just say no, call up my foreman, have a meeting with the utility rep, and start them planning to bury or move the line. I can tell them about proper treework, and although the utility rep is ISA certified, there is a slight chance he will tell me to go ahead anyways. Is that the deal?
> 
> So long Murph, stay safe out there.


Most the time he's just cleaning house 
for his hard working wife, he'll be fine.


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## treemandan (Apr 16, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Yeah and like a drivers license those without one are likely the best drivers!



That is cause we have to be.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 16, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> You change the text in my post while quoting me ,and I call you on it ,you don't answer it but NEG rep me ,,,,WOW,And to add to that you are barely eligible to start giving rep to anybody with 83 post .Your off to a good start.
> 
> I have been on threads where we are talking about life and death situations and having strong disagreements and never been neg repd.
> Well ,I guess those post were with other adults.
> ...



Do what you gotta do. I dont care what you or any of your little hack buddies think of me either. Besides you started getting stupid with me and smarting off in your posts. Ofcoarse im not going to add to your reputation in a positive way. And as far as my posts go, Ive been a member to this site way longer than you have so I dont think you have any place to tell me whats up when it comes to seniority if thats what your getting at. So, with that said lets act like ADULTS as you say and stop bickering about stupid crap.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 16, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> I dont care what you or any of your little hack buddies think of me either.


"""""I'm a hack, he's a hack, wouldn't you like to be a hack tooooooo.......""""""

I get paid good money to be a hack and take offense to your statement and I demand an apology......


Can't we just all be hack buddies..........pleeeaaasssseeee can't we.......


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## oldirty (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> That is a waste of my time and energy and Ihave just about had it with the level of incompetence on this site.



hey mullet, ive changed my opinion about you too. you should grow the rest of your hair out cause you are a b1tch.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 16, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> Do what you gotta do. I dont care what you or any of your little hack buddies think of me either. Besides you started getting stupid with me and smarting off in your posts. Ofcoarse im not going to add to your reputation in a positive way. And as far as my posts go, Ive been a member to this site way longer than you have so I dont think you have any place to tell me whats up when it comes to seniority if thats what your getting at. So, with that said lets act like ADULTS as you say and stop bickering about stupid crap.




I didn't get stupid or start smarting off to anybody.

I simply called foul on your quoting me yelling in the post by changing the font in my post ,and you showing it as my quote at somebody.

It is there for anybody to see.

I am done with this thread.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 16, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> instead of arguing about whether its good to do hack work or not...


We wouldn't be if you hadn't started this thread.


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2009)

*I wonder what Dr. Shigo would think?*

I never had a chance to meet Dr. Shigo but I have met folks who have and read some of his work and a lot about the man. He probably forgot more about trees in his life than most of us will know. From all I have heard, read and learned about the man he was a humble unassuming man who loved trees and was a great teacher. He worked to educate all of us uneducated treemen without being holier than thou or belittling. I think his goal was to teach tree biology and health for the betterment of the industry and was very humble in doing so. I think like most great teachers he learned how to talk and communicate his thoughts and ideas without alienating his audience. His goal was to educate the everyday guy in the field and had a very smooth way of doing that IMHO. I would have loved to have met him. He obviously loved trees and the science of arborculture and achieved his goal of better tree care in a very humble way from what I have gathered. I wonder what he would think of us now.

I hate to see anyone go. Especially the ones who have so much to offer and teach. Sometimes the atmosphere here is so hostile that I am afraid to ask questions so I usually turn to other sources. I know how to take down a tree. I'd like to be able to learn how to properly care for one without being afraid of asking a question without being ridiculed.

Just my .02


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Correct me if I am wrong here I am not an expert on true arborist practices. But I was always under the belief that this is a bad time to be pruning now. Unhealthy to prune budding tree or fall when leaves are dropping. I know this is true on certain trees but I always just use it as a guideline.



You are correct. Not supposed to prune when leaves are forming or falling. Don't quote me but I believe Alex Shigo coined that phrase.


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## clearance (Apr 16, 2009)

tree md said:


> I never had a chance to meet Dr. Shigo but I have met folks who have and read some of his work and a lot about the man. He probably forgot more about trees in his life than most of us will know. From all I have heard, read and learned about the man he was a humble unassuming man who loved trees and was a great teacher. He worked to educate all of us uneducated treemen without being holier than thou or belittling. I think his goal was to teach tree biology and health for the betterment of the industry and was very humble in doing so. I think like most great teachers he learned how to talk and communicate his thoughts and ideas without alienating his audience. His goal was to educate the everyday guy in the field and had a very smooth way of doing that IMHO. I would have loved to have met him. He obviously loved trees and the science of arborculture and achieved his goal of better tree care in a very humble way from what I have gathered. I wonder what he would think of us now.
> 
> I hate to see anyone go. Especially the ones who have so much to offer and teach. Sometimes the atmosphere here is so hostile that I am afraid to ask questions so I usually turn to other sources. I know how to take down a tree. I'd like to be able to learn how to properly care for one without being afraid of asking a question without being ridiculed.
> 
> Just my .02



He was a good guy, from what I hear. He wrote a little booklet about trimming around powerlines, very informative, lots of drawings. I was taught to trim his way, many, here included, call utility guys hacks. You simply cannot have an omellette without breaking eggs, thats the way it is.

He did what he could to help, never held his nose in the air and looked down on utility guys like many ISA types. 

I have had my beefs, been called names and called people names here. Gots to have thick skin, but it has finally dawned on me, with help, that it doesn't have to be that way. I know what I can do, and have done at work, and most of its pretty good. I know how to work around power and in the bush, for those who provide quality residential tree work, be proud of what you do. And we can all be more understanding and less judgemental of others, it makes the world a better place.


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## Raymond (Apr 16, 2009)

it's posts like this that has him receiving a hard time.
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=86927


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 17, 2009)

You will definatly win more of an audience that way. You cant argue your way into convincing someone of a certain truth. Oh, well I guess i'll learn someday. Arboriculture is a very strong passion for me and its hard not to get offended when people that care nothing about it come along and start badmouthing it. I guess everyones not going to feel the same way as I do about it. Sorry to scare you out of asking questions man by gettin all crazy about topping trees. It will probably continue no matter how hard we preach against it so we are just going to have to continue on doing our thing and eventually our good work practice will prevail on our behalf. Peace Out!!


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## Tree Pig (Apr 17, 2009)

tree md said:


> You are correct. Not supposed to prune when leaves are forming or falling. Don't quote me but I believe Alex Shigo coined that phrase.



thanks for the follow up I thought maybe I was mislead all these years.


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## OTG BOSTON (Apr 17, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> The hacks and arbor trolls get equal time these days!



:stupid:


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## treemandan (Apr 17, 2009)

Raymond said:


> People are weird and stubborn. They think if you trim off all the vertical limbs they're good to go. The one hanging down in their face in the last ice storm.
> 
> Could I of done it better? YEP! But the person holding the check book gets to call the plays.
> 
> ...



I will attest to the weird and stubborn part... no contest, us people sure are.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 17, 2009)

Hey Raymond, I just got to know man, what's up with all them monkeys?


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## Raymond (Apr 17, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> Hey Raymond, I just got to know man, what's up with all them monkeys?


Oh I donno. :dunno: Had another chat room I played in and the ladies liked it, so I did and still have'em.
Sometimes I can respond with just a pic and found that kinda cool. 
Am I gay? Oh God NO. Just making a little fun out of posting.




That top on is a little gay, I wont use that one anymore.


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## capetrees (Apr 17, 2009)

I can't believe this topic went 6+ pages. Too bad the guy is cutting prices. Thats the way it goes. All you guys that are so great and stand on your credentials get this way whenever times are tough. "Its not the money, it's the principle" concept. Tell it to the bank when the mortgage is due. Keep the custometr happy and do what they ask, not what you want on their property. They want the thing topped, do it and don't look back. They want it limbed up, thats what they wanted. Go back to your perfect world when the economy gets better.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 17, 2009)

Raymond said:


> Oh I donno. :dunno: Had another chat room I played in and the ladies liked it, so I did and still have'em.
> Sometimes I can respond with just a pic and found that kinda cool.
> Am I gay? Oh God NO. Just making a little fun out of posting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up, I was starting to wonder about you.....


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## lxt (Apr 20, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> I've been a member on this site since 2002... does anyone remember the days when guys that posted comments like "what's wrong with that" or "give the customer what they want and cash the check", would have been run off, chewed up and spit out in 15 minutes?... That kind of attitude wasn't tolerated and no one would buck the group conscensus and want to come back for more... This thread is a true testement to just how low the level of awareness and competency at this site has become...
> 
> Now I know the company that pruned these maples and I just had to try to "fix" a beatiful 40"+ dbh red oak that they lion's tailed. When I used the term "lions tail", the customer said "that's a self explanatory description", looking up at the tree. She was a teacher in medical school, highly educated and vowed to write them a strong letter and tell all her neighbors. She didn't ask for her tree to be butchered. That is just what they do.
> 
> ...



I remember those days Murph, its going down hill because every newbee chimes in with how to questions instead of who`s hiring? everyone wants to make a killing quick by going into the tree biz.......can you say running before walking?

this is the reason why our trade is looked down on and why certain entities want some form of regulation, nowadays its the "I can do it all" attitude with out the knowledge for anything other than being dangerous to themselves.

when I started this trade I made $9.59 hourly, was hazed like a college frat boy and did all the ugly stuff (scared too I might add), never gave the money a thought as long as it payed the bills.....it was a pride thing and the want to obtain my journeyman card, was all I wanted!! to reach the plateau of my profession.

today......you can start em off at $15 an hour and if they dont want to do it they dont!!! and dont care, along with having to be extra sensitive to em cause its just not right to yell at the idiot!! this trade has had a bunch of mommies boys enter it crying out like baby birds!!!!!! sad thing is...Mom is feeding her birds a dose of stupidity that in the long run will worsen new hires even more so!!


LXT...............


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## Henry111 (Apr 20, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I have nothing against arborist but for the fact that most think they are the only ones that can do it right, I can show you some seriously *bad* work done by one of the local so called arborist that has been on TV telling people to only hire certified arborist for their tree work, have I ever lost a job because I'm not certified, sure 1 time but then I went back and told the lady when she wanted them stubs removed call me. I could post pictures but I won't, I don't feel like being sued.
> 
> My point is, just because you have a card and number doesn't make you the best there is, it's like a drivers license, some people have it and can't drive a damn lick........



I guess it depends on who your talking about, or if you have the skill and knowledge of correct arborculture then why dont you have a card in your pocket ? I think you are knocking the wrong people!!


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## Rftreeman (Apr 20, 2009)

Henry111 said:


> I guess it depends on who your talking about, or if you have the skill and knowledge of correct arborculture then why dont you have a card in your pocket ? I think you are knocking the wrong people!!


I'm talking about anyone that thinks they are better then anyone else just because they have a certification of any sort, I don't need a certification to tell me that I know what I'm doing. Do you need one? I started doing this long before this certification stuff started but most people seem to forget that there are people that know what they are doing that came from the seventies and eighties that are still around in this industry, we learned the hard way out in the field working our butts off only to have some pencil pusher say, hey we care about what's best for the trees, the trees have feelings.......

you asked why don't I have a card, well like I said, I don't need it. Why should I fork out the money to *buy* something that makes me "politically" correct?

and yes this topic does suck, this thread was nothing more than a bash Rick's Tree thread, not that I know or care who Rick is but why would someone start this thread then state who the company was that did the work and also state that they lost work to the very same company sounds like a little  to me.............

This is still a free country (for now) and people still have the freedom to do what ever they want to *their* trees and as long as it's paying the bills I'll be doing it for them, if someone doesn't like the end results you they have the option of looking the other way...........it's like watching TV or listing to the radio, if you don't like what's on, turn the channel.

if that's knocking the wrong people then so be it.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 20, 2009)

lxt said:


> when I started this trade I made $9.59 hourly, was hazed like a college frat boy and did all the ugly stuff (scared too I might add), never gave the money a thought as long as it payed the bills.....it was a pride thing and the want to obtain my journeyman card, was all I wanted!! to reach the plateau of my profession.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I started at $7.91 :biggrinbounce2:


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## oldirty (Apr 20, 2009)

10$ myself.


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## John464 (Apr 20, 2009)

I started at $4 an hour. I bought myself a new dirtbike(XR80, CR80, Big wheel, CR 125, RM 250) every few years. thats all I needed money for back then was to ride and was happy to work at that rate.


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2009)

Henry111 said:


> I guess it depends on who your talking about, or if you have the skill and knowledge of correct arborculture then why dont you have a card in your pocket ? I think you are knocking the wrong people!!



Yes, it does suck but you can't say its not a topic. Armchair Arborist, one of them shows up and everybody is going to be upset.

When you are dealing with institutionally owned trees you are going to need an arborist who most likey can't accomodate reisdential homeowners cause they can't afford him or they just don't want to afford him or the project don't really require more than a couple brainless dogs with saws and a chipper.
I have lost jobs to companies with a CA on staff, come to find the trees have been skinned all the way out as far as a man could reach with a set of spikes. Not one person out there knows the difference between good and bad, they hire the cheapest most easiest person.


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## Henry111 (Apr 22, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yes, it does suck but you can't say its not a topic. Armchair Arborist, one of them shows up and everybody is going to be upset.
> 
> When you are dealing with institutionally owned trees you are going to need an arborist who most likey can't accomodate reisdential homeowners cause they can't afford him or they just don't want to afford him or the project don't really require more than a couple brainless dogs with saws and a chipper.
> I have lost jobs to companies with a CA on staff, come to find the trees have been skinned all the way out as far as a man could reach with a set of spikes. Not one person out there knows the difference between good and bad, they hire the cheapest most easiest person.



You know, you make a good point because ive ran that stuff as well. and i think the problem there is that the CA was on staff, and not on the job but small companies like me have that all under control, Because i sell the work and do the work CA PD 109 3A.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 22, 2009)

capetrees said:


> They want the thing topped, do it and don't look back. They want it limbed up, thats what they wanted. Go back to your perfect world when the economy gets better.



Thats all good but topping can be a libility issue. Someone gets hurt or killed from a tree that you topped, you could risk being sued for negligence. Its happened before.


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## capetrees (Apr 22, 2009)




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## clearance (Apr 22, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> Thats all good but topping can be a libility issue. Someone gets hurt or killed from a tree that you topped, you could risk being sued for negligence. Its happened before.



Can you provide evidence of this?


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## Raymond (Apr 22, 2009)

I'd be more afraid of getting sued for properly trimming out a tree 
that the people wanted me to top but I talked them out of it. 

Then during a storm, a lead falls through the roof and kills a child.


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## tree md (Apr 23, 2009)

Ray, I love you like a big bro but you are wrong about that. Topping trees is a bad practice and wrong. They make the tree more unstable in the long run, If a tree needs to be topped it needs to be removed.


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## Raymond (Apr 23, 2009)

tree md said:


> Ray, I love you like a big bro but you are wrong about that. Topping trees is a bad practice and wrong. They make the tree more unstable in the long run, If a tree needs to be topped it needs to be removed.


LOL..Little bro-bro, I REALLY hate topping trees and always try and talk them out of it. 
Then they point out large leads over the house. So I try and give them the option of side 
trimming it back, if I can't convince them of just cleaning it out and lighting it up.
Then if that don't work, I try to give them a bid for just removing the whole tree. 

I really do try and avoid topping trees..I do. But people around here sometimes have their minds set. 
SO whatta you do?


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 23, 2009)

clearance said:


> Can you provide evidence of this?



Yes, I read it a few weeks ago. Give me a couple days to find it and i'll let you know where you can read it for yourself.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 23, 2009)

clearance said:


> Can you provide evidence of this?



www.oregon.gov/ODF/PUBS/docs/Forest_Facts/FF_Tree_Topping.pdf

Read this article. Sorry but your going to have to type this in cause I dont know how to paste links yet. But the info is there. There is another gov site in illinois that says the same thing. You can find more of these if you type in "tree topping liability" in a search engine.


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## clearance (Apr 23, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> www.oregon.gov/ODF/PUBS/docs/Forest_Facts/FF_Tree_Topping.pdf
> 
> Read this article. Sorry but your going to have to type this in cause I dont know how to paste links yet. But the info is there. There is another gov site in illinois that says the same thing. You can find more of these if you type in "tree topping liability" in a search engine.



Looked at it, just a copy from the ISA, "could" be stuff, no cases noted. Yes, topping is bad, I know.


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 23, 2009)

Raymond said:


> LOL..Little bro-bro, I REALLY hate topping trees and always try and talk them out of it.
> Then they point out large leads over the house. So I try and give them the option of side
> trimming it back, if I can't convince them of just cleaning it out and lighting it up.
> Then if that don't work, I try to give them a bid for just removing the whole tree.
> ...



Easy, you walk. It is what separates the tree guys from the arborists. I am not talking about line clearing work and I know that topping can and should be done in certain conditions but if you honestly think that the tree will be safer after topping it....


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## Raymond (Apr 23, 2009)

*Only because I woke up to a splitting headache.*



Slvrmple72 said:


> Easy, you walk. It is what separates the tree guys from the arborists. I am not talking about line clearing work and I know that topping can and should be done in certain conditions but if you honestly think that the tree will be safer after topping it....


I never said it was safer for a tree to be topped. 
And as far as walking away from jobs. 
I went from 30 to 40 job calls (before Bush) a week to 6 or 8 (after Bush). 
I don't get to walk away from many jobs anymore. 
I do draw the line when it comes to oaks and other hardwood trees. 
It's really just the elms and silver maples. 

Besides who said I run around topping trees? I do and have topped many, Yes.
But no I don't like topping trees and always (You see that? ALWAYS) try to avoid it.

We done now? I'm going back to bed.


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## Ekka (Apr 23, 2009)

clearance said:


> Looked at it, just a copy from the ISA, "could" be stuff, no cases noted. Yes, topping is bad, I know.



I agree with Clarence on this, I am yet to see a case where failed regrowth from inappropriate pruning resulted in a negligence claim that paid. 

If you got one, post it coz I need the ammo too, meanwhile all we got is hocuspocus as far as the liability aspect goes, we need a precedent.


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## Mapleman (Apr 23, 2009)

This thread has been a hoot...too bad I got in so late. I started out at $2.20 an hour working for Farrens in Jax, Fla, 1970. I was paroled into the job from Appalachee Correctional Institute. I think Asplundh (sp) gets most of their guys the same way, ha, ha--no offense to any of you ex-asplundh guys. 

I agree with Rf as to certification. I've taken the home study courses, try to keep up with the latest info via arborists' mags, and talk shop with fellow tree guys when possible, but I've never taken the certification tests--I don't need a piece of paper to tell me what I know. I get all my work by word of mouth or I contract out as a hired gun. I've worked for some guys who were certified arborists who didn't know how to tie a timber hitch.

I think we need a little levity here after this brouhaha. Anybody heard the sorry saga of Mike Allen, last seen up at the Daley Condos near UC Med Center in SF? I'll be posting it in a new thread.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 23, 2009)

I figured this thread would be dead by now..............


Don't top it.........just drop it..........


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 24, 2009)

Hey Ramond. Any pics of the Energizer Bunny! This thread just keeps going and going and going! LOL


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## Raymond (Apr 24, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> Hey Ramond. Any pics of the Energizer Bunny! This thread just keeps going and going and going! LOL


You got it my monkey buddy.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 24, 2009)

Raymond said:


> You got it my monkey buddy.



I knew you wouldnt let me down!!! Thats hilarious!!!! You got a pic for every subject !!


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## capetrees (Apr 24, 2009)




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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 25, 2009)

you suck!!!!


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## Bermie (Apr 27, 2009)

Ekka said:


> I agree with Clarence on this, I am yet to see a case where failed regrowth from inappropriate pruning resulted in a negligence claim that paid.
> 
> If you got one, post it coz I need the ammo too, meanwhile all we got is hocuspocus as far as the liability aspect goes, we need a precedent.



I don't have a link, just an anecdote...
In college (UK) we were on the tree law section, and our tutor related a story where Alex Shigo was called in to be an expert witness in a failure case. He was able to interpret cut sections of the tree and prove that inappropriate tree work years before had caused the tree to fail. The company that did the work was sued.

Sorry I don't have the specifics...


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## prentice110 (Apr 28, 2009)

teamtree said:


> Ok....Are you saying you never do something against good sound tree care standards due to the customers demand? If so, I am happy for you.
> 
> I find it to be a struggle to find customers to understand less is better...maybe that is why I try to do more removals than anything....little to be left for discussion when the tree is gone.
> 
> ...



I was going to say a thing or two about this post but this guy hit the nail on the head so all I will add is that this is the same kind of trimming that 90+% of my competitors do and I seem to notice around anywhere from 40-60% of the time I point out to the customer that this is what the other guy is going to do , and it isnt right, I get the job. The rest of the time the customer is only looking at the bottom line, or is some kind off jack leg that I dont want to waste my time dealing with because theyve already been brain washed by what theyve seen or been told by someone else. Thin, dont butcher. Why haul heavy wood when you can take away pruning cuts for the same$?


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hey Raymond, can we get the energizer bunny again? Pleeease? Eight pages and going and going and going!!


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## Raymond (Apr 28, 2009)

Raymond said:


> You got it my monkey buddy.


.


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## B-Edwards (Apr 28, 2009)

I have or had a customer who is very wealthy, a younger fellow single , second home has spent over 300k on his landscaping in the past 6 years( on the second home). He wanted all of the limbs raised on his trees so his smaller trees and shrubs would get more sunlight. I am friends with this fellow, we have been out to eat with his girl-friend and my wife several times. We are friends but we really dont connect he is in a different world than I am and I dont think he really respects that I am an Arborist but that's another story. I am telling you this so you understand the story. I tried to talk him out of what he wanted to do for over 3 months. I tried to show him that he had way to many smaller trees planted to close together and that all of that would out-grow it's site rather quickly and he would have to remove things as they crowded each other. To make a long story short, he would have it no other way than his way. I explained that there would be a real problem with sprouts making the trunks look ugly and told him the health of the trees would suffer. Oh yeah to make a loong story short, his trees look like crap and he tipped me very well.


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## prentice110 (Apr 29, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I started at $7.91 :biggrinbounce2:



the old man started at 90 cents an hour, in 1946. They had 3 crews, and 1 chain saw. Nobody wanted to use it cuz it was so dang heavy.


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## Ekka (Apr 30, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> the old man started at 90 cents an hour, in 1946. They had 3 crews, and 1 chain saw. Nobody wanted to use it cuz it was so dang heavy.



And that's still (in 2009) more than what they're paying for the employess of Firestone Tires in China today, amongst hundreds of other businesses that left USA for cheaper labour and little industrial laws recently.

Welcome to the past, back to the future takes a new dimension!


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## Rftreeman (Apr 30, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I'll tell you what's wrong with it, some dimwit pencil pusher decided at one time or another that he would start this "what's good for the tree" arborist thing and now anytime some arborist see someone making money by giving the customer *exactly what they wanted* they can't stand it knowing that someone got paid to do it........
> 
> I personally see nothing wrong with those trees, the customer most likely came home one day and said "I sure would like to be able to see my house from the road" so they hired Rick's to fix it so they could.


I got another big fat red rep from monkey for this but it doesn't matter cause I've gotten about 9 green rep for it........lol


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 30, 2009)

Now you got 8!


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## Rftreeman (Apr 30, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> Now you got 8!


are you sure


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## capetrees (Apr 30, 2009)

:hmm3grin2orange:Anyone else want to negative rep Monkey-butt into the red zone?


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## Rftreeman (Apr 30, 2009)

capetrees said:


> :hmm3grin2orange:Anyone else want to negative rep Monkey-butt into the red zone?


opcorn:


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## Jkebxjunke (Apr 30, 2009)

opcorn:


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## Jkebxjunke (Apr 30, 2009)

capetrees said:


> :hmm3grin2orange:Anyone else want to negative rep Monkey-butt into the red zone?



you mean give him a red butt? 
:monkey:


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## capetrees (Apr 30, 2009)

All it takes is one bad rep .....


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## Jkebxjunke (Apr 30, 2009)

capetrees said:


> All it takes is one bad rep .....



last time i negged someone... they had 2 greenies.. when I hit him he had 6 reds...


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