# How much to make it worth logging



## JUDGE1162

OK, I bought forty acres in the Catskills, I am looking to have it logged but only want to do a selective cut, I had a forestry plan done last year (NYCDEP grant), I have been told that a portion (1/3) of the property was logged about 5 to 7 years ago and that any trees of real value were removed from this area. But on the back portion of the property there are some valuable trees (Cherry, Maple and Oak) with 30"+ DBH. The forestry plan estimated over $15K worth of cherry alone. I called a couple logging companies and they said they are not interested in a selective cut, they want to cut every hardwood tree (the property is 90% hardwood if not more) over 20" DBH. (That is a selective cut for them)

I am I missing something here? How much wood does a logger need to remove to make it worth it for them? We had agreed to a 50/50 split of the sale of the trees (for the cherry alone that should be $7,500 a piece) and I keep the tops for firewood.

The only limits I had was nothing within 200 feet of the house and only trees of real value (Oaks, Cherry, Maple, etc.) I have a lot of poplar and birch some elm which I would like to keep. The property is 800 feet wide by 2500 feet long; I think a 200 X 200 no cut area is fair, I already checked no Cherry in the 200 X 200 and much of that 200 X 200 area this is the area that was logged 5 to 7 years ago.

Let me know if I am being unreasonable


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## woodfarmer

*not unreasonable at all*

its your property, don't let anyone tell you what they will cut, we mark every tree to be cut on our property, 50 acres, 300 maple trees and the logger was more concerned where the twenty cherry trees were. they only cut what was marked, paid on time and left the bush in decent shape when finished.we left many trees in the 20" range as crop trees for the future, mark the trees with paint also at ground level so you can make sure only trees marked were cut, good luck.


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## Husky137

Don't let them do a diameter limit cut. Its a euphamism for high grading. It will leave nothing for the future. Contact some independent foresters who could recommend some loggers that practice proper silvilculture techniques. It's your land, only you can make sure it protected the way you want. Hiring your own forester could bring you a better return when they put it out for competitive bid.


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## clearance

Clearcutting is a proper silviculture method, its been done for many years, millions of acres have been logged and logged and logged again. Saved trees get thrashed, the ground is compacted, new trees have to compete for light, etc. Saw it all down, ribbon off the area you want untouched. Make sure you get paid for every log trucked away, use some of that money to replant trees you like. Loggers are out to make money, selective is a p.i.t.a. for them, and it ain't thier land, it grows back, always does.


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## woodfarmer

clearance said:


> Clearcutting is a proper silviculture method, its been done for many years, millions of acres have been logged and logged and logged again. Saved trees get thrashed, the ground is compacted, new trees have to compete for light, etc. Saw it all down, ribbon off the area you want untouched. Make sure you get paid for every log trucked away, use some of that money to replant trees you like. Loggers are out to make money, selective is a p.i.t.a. for them, and it ain't thier land, it grows back, always does.


not in your lifetime buddy


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## clearance

woodfarmer said:


> not in your lifetime buddy


 Actually here in B.C. men have logged and then thier kids have logged it again, many times. I have climbed second growth that is over 100', not even 70 years old. Out in Ontario you guys have some nice little hardwoods, they look nice in the fall. Here we have big trees, anyways, what I said is true, treehugging freaks may not agree, but its true.


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## Finnbear

Short answer-find a different logger. 

Longer answer - It's your timber and you can sell it any way you see fit. You might not get the biggest paycheck by putting limits on the sale but you can control what is sold and how it is handled and in the end that will be worth more than getting the maximum bang for your buck. You also have the right to demand (in writing) that the logger use "best management practices" when dealing with your property. You can have a "slash and burn" job done or you can have a responsible logger cut your woods and end up with the same paycheck. Ask for references and check them out. Visit a woods or two that your logger has cut recently and talk to the landowners. In Ohio you can hire a consulting forester and they will mark the trees YOU want to sell and help you manage the sale and they are worth the small investment. If the property was solely an investment and you didn't have to live there then I'd say sell to the highest bidder and move on but you live there and you know how you want your woods to look when the sale is done. A bad job will irritate you every time you look at it and peace of mind is hard to put a price on.

P.S. - That 50/50 split is a good way to get screwed. You have to trust the logger to produce ALL the mill receipts for your trees that he hauls in. He could pay the mill to give him false receipts. It happens ALL the time. Here in OH any reputable logger will completely pay for your timber before he ever fires up a saw. My FIL and Uncles both had small woodlots (under 15 acres) logged in the last 5 years and both sales were in the $20,000-$30,000 range and every penny was paid up front and both logging crews did nice jobs. There are many not-so-reputable loggers who pull all sorts of tricks to get your timber for a lot less than it is worth or just plain steal it from you and the burden is on you to keep them honest. If you get hosed on a timber deal it is your fault and you will have a very hard time getting justice. Selling timber is a "Seller Beware" business. I have a childhood friend whose parents recently sold 40 acres of timber on some vacant land they'd owned for many, many years. The logger called them one evening and said that he was cutting the property next to them and he'd like to buy their timber. My friend's father asked what it was worth and the logger said he'd give them a good price for it since he was already in the neighborhood and offered $6000. My friend's father immediately bit on the price because he'd only paid $110/acre for it many, many years before. I've camped and hunted on that piece of land a few times and I know the timber was probably worth closer to $60,000 than the $6,000 he got out of it. I walked the property one Saturday and looked at the stumps and you can't imagine how many semi-truckloads of wood got hauled out of there. My friend's dad got hosed and didn't know it and was even happy about it.  
Finnbear


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## Doctor Dave

clearance said:


> Actually here in B.C. men have logged and then thier kids have logged it again, many times. I have climbed second growth that is over 100', not even 70 years old. Out in Ontario you guys have some nice little hardwoods, they look nice in the fall. Here we have big trees, anyways, what I said is true, treehugging freaks may not agree, but its true.



All true, on good moist conifer sites...but in the eastern US, mixed hardwoods are best selective cut. Hardwood trees take 50-70 years to make good multi-log trees; therefore, you want to leave the smaller trees of good form, so that you can log a couple times in your lifetime.


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## windthrown

*Avoid select cutting!*

From my experience I would never do a select cut. From my education in forestry classes, my experience living in a high density commercial forest and logging area, and my experience being a woodland manager of 105 acres of trees that were select cut 20 years ago (what we 'high grading' here), I would not do a select cut or high grade, ever. Unless you prescribe the cut for thinning and cutting the smaller and weaker trees that would be natually be thinned out by the larger trees. You will also tend to damage the roots and bark of the leave trees during select cutting, and you will tend to compact the soil during the harvesting process. 

Basically what happens with select cutting is you take the best trees off the property. That leaves the weaker trees to grow that would naturally be thinned out... to live longer. Not only are the weaker trees less marketable over time, they usually will not grow as large as the better trees that are removed, and (bad bad bad) they will be the trees left to reproduce. That leads to a weaker stand overall, and you will just get lower and lower quality lumber, trees and wood over time. 

One reason that clearcutting is favorable is that you can cut all the wood, good, so-so and junk, market it, clear the land, sub-soil and replant superior quality stock, mix species in a ratio that you want, and you will get more premium and better marketable lumber off your land over time. You will also pay a lot less to have it cut, becasue it is far more expensive to do select cutting. Selecting off the lesser quality stuff is usually not profitable, and thinning usually costs money to the owner or is break-even at best. After our having to deal with what we have here, 80 acres or so that was high graded, all we have now is unmarketable timber. We have weaker spindly trees with bad crowns or canopy, diseased trees, wolf trees, split trees, poor lumber species trees, and trees with various faults that could have been removed in a clear cut. 

Best practice here is to clear-cut leaving select trees for wildlife (leave trees), sub-soil the ground, plant high quality mixed species well suited to the site ASAP, release those trees the first and following year by spraying or weeding, feed those trees any limited nutrients, and thin them when they get too crowded. I would clear cut 10 acres here per year for 8 years... if it were my land. My S.O. owns it so I cannot make the Rx for cutting, though I may get 6 acres cut becasue thinning is too expensive and we do not have the resources to do it ourselves. We have a forest plan that was required becasue when the S.O. bought this property, the previous owners did not pay the 6% tax on the trees that they cut... she could sue in a big legal battle and get nothing from the sellers (they are now broke), or she could go with a forest plan Rx and replant the area in 3 years time. She chose the later. She planted 2000 trees 2 years ago. We planted 2000 trees here last winter. 3000 more to go this winter. We had a forest planer up to walk the property this spring. He is pretty cool and is allowing us to have open areas and he is allowing for cutting out doug firs and saving a large grow of old growth black oaks. 

If you want money from your stand, you are not apt to get money for keeping a better stand for the future. They will always want the best stock today, and leave you holding the bag. You can try to cut any deal you can. Get bids from several places. Call a professional logger/broker that manages cutting and selling logs to mills. You can sell your trees as a stand, or as logs. Personally, I would sell my trees as a stand and let the buyer deal with selecting, cutting, trucking, mill sale, piling up and burning or chipping and distributing slash, pay the taxes (6% off the top), grade, rock or restore the roads, get permits, etc. etc. People tend to think that they can make a fortune off cutting, and then they get screwed. They get a sawyer that cuts the logs the wrong length. They get buried in the permit process. They sell to a mill that does not pay the best price. They overpay for trucking to a mill that is farther away. They get the wrong type of equipment in there and bang things up. I have friends that turned $400k stands here into $200k in return after trying to manage the process themselves. One friend had his logs cut too long, and the mill knocked off money becasue they had to cut them to the length that hey can deal with them. He lost money on the lost length as well, becasue he hired an inadequate sawyer. There are just so many details in the whole process. 

So again, do not select cut. Sell the trees as a stand if you can, and let someone else deal with all the details and issues, and pay the taxes. If you don't sell the stand and want to sell logs, if you do not have experience, hire a professional manager to deal with the mills, sawyers, trucking, permits, sale, cleanup and all the paperwork. The devil is in the details, and no matter how small, the whole process can be really complicated and there are many ways to lose you arse in the whole mess. And if you want to manage the process yourself, get a good sawyer, get bids from several mills, make sure your logs are the RIGHT LENGTH, and well, good luck dealing with it all.  

My take on this subject...


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## woodfarmer

if you need better advice than what you've received so far, get in touch with gypo, i've seen the work he does and after a year you would hardly even know any trees had been cut in these woodlots. you can't compare east coast vs west coast, every single aspect is different, it would take 60-80 years for hardwood trees to regenertate, we can log all winter when the ground is frozen in two feet of snow to minimize damage.


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## tawilson

Did you read the fine print on the grant you took from the state? You may have limited your options. I would think whoever did your forestry plan should have given you some advise on what to do, and who to have do it. For a little more clink, he may handle the whole thing for you.


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## John Ellison

If skidder loggers are not interested because of the quantity of timber that you want logged, contact some horse loggers. Rural Heritage has a listing, and there are quite a few in NY state.


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## Finnbear

windthrown,
I understand where you are coming from in your advice but it is a west-coast perspective and applies to a different type of forest than we have back east. Best thing for this landowner is to mark the trees *he wants cut*-preferrably with the help of a consulting forester and then put *those trees* up for bid. He owns the land and is free to sell exactly what he wants to sell with the understanding that his limitations on the sale may affect the price bid. Select-cuts are very applicable to our small woodlots and are one of many management tools used on our mostly privately owned small woodlots. You should note that the author of this thread stated that this woodlot was where he lived and I'm sure he wants a nice woods to look at after he sells some timber. A clearcut is not at all desirable for someone's "backyard" unless they plan on clearing out the stumps and planting grass afterward and that is clearly not the stated goal here. Clearcuts are fairly ugly for quite a few years and not what you'd want to look at out your living room window. They do create some great deer and grouse hunting for quite a few years after the cut but JUDGE1162 didn't mention that as one of his objectives. He would probably be most happy with a well-done select cut by a logger using low-impact forestry methods. After the sale/cut, the landowner should implement an active management plan that is tailored to his goals for his woodlot and work at it for the forseeable future. This will produce the most satisfaction for him in the long run.
Finnbear


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## NYH1

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. If I bought a house on 40 acres of woods I wouldn't want to end up with 39 acres of nasty looking clear cut. 

I cleared about 3/4 of an acre that my friend owns to put in a deer plot back in 2000. After I felled the trees (90% cherry and averaged about 15" DBH) someone said I should sell them to a saw mill or a logging company. I called two loggers and they both said they would give me $1000 for the logs. One of them wanted me to cut them up and get them to the landing. The other said he would remove them and I wouldn't have to do anything else. Guess which one I went with! I wasn't trying to make money so I was happy with the $1000. And I got five years worth of firewood from the tops!

You have 40 acres not 400 or 4,000. Keep it as nice as you can. And remember it's your property do it your way!


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## windthrown

*Clear cutting*

I do not advocate clear cutting the entire property or turning it into moonscape... even here with 105 acres here I would only cut 10% at a time. It is just that clear cutting can be beneficial if you have select cut a stand to a degraded quality that is not worth maintaining any more, for whatever reason; weak trees, poor canopy, disease, stagnant stand, unwanted species. It is also more economical to clear-cut, east or west. Also taking the best trees every time you cut will degrade your stand, wherever you are and whatever you are growing. Granted, the main reason that they clear cut commercial timber here is becasue Doug fir seedlings need sun exposure to grow. However, on property like this one with a very good selection of mixed species, select cutting and high grading has left a severely degraded stand that would recover its commercial and natural viability much faster if it was systematically clear-cut and replanted. Clear-cutting ~can~ be a part of best practice forest planning. Unfortunately it has a bad reputation from commercial moon-scaping of large tracts. 

Another aspect is that there is the edge effect that is created by clear-cutting. The American Indians burned here every fall to create an edge effect between open areas and forest for better hunting. We have ancient oaks here that are only here becasue they burned the fields here for several hundred years. The burning allowed the oaks to grow and kept the Doug firs from taking over (they were burned off long before they grew high enough to cover the canopy of the oaks). We are removing firs here to restore the ancient oak canopy in places. We are also thinning. Our Rx forest planner has recommended clear-cutting about 30 acres that is a mix of stagnant stand and poor trees that would have been naturally killed off by the dominant trees around them that were harvested. Sadly the old growth Doug firs were select cut here; there are still stumps 8 ft across and some 20 ft logs 7 ft in diameter that are now giant termite condominiums. 

To each his or her own... I offer an opinion that is seemingly unpopular and somewhat counter-intuitive, but after managaing a large stand here that was select cut it is blatantly obvious to me that there are far better ways to harvest timber than select cutting and/or high-grading. If you constantly remove the dominant trees, you are going against nature and you will not have as good a stand, be it for lumber, habitat or asthetics. :biggrinbounce2:


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## Finnbear

So clear-cutting is the only correct way to harvest a woodlot?
Finnbear


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## JUDGE1162

Boy did this thread get some people fired up

I have a little forestry background, so I know that a selective or high value cut tends to be the best way to long hardwood forest in the east. Second I live on the land and I enjoy my forest and wildlife so clear cutting is out anyway.

On the selective cuts only help the weaker species that would be killed of due to the older/bigger trees, that is not really true in hardwood mixed forest, I have a lot of younger/smaller oak, maple and cherry that would grow faster and striaghter if were not shaded out by the larger trees.

I did check my grant they only thing I can do is clear cut and build a wal-mart, as long as the land is not developed in the next 10 years my grant is good.

I did have a forestry consult out and he made the plan which called for a selective cut and he did mark which trees and gave me a list of "good loggers" in the area the 50/50 splits was from a hardwood saw mills, the logger is not associated with the sawmill and the sawmill is cutting the check to me and I pay the logger "maybe that is the issue" they think I am going to screw them. 

I'll let you know what happens but it does seem like what I am aking is not unreasonable

Thanks for the replies


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## NYCHA FORESTER

> I had a forestry plan done last year (NYCDEP grant), I have been told that a portion (1/3) of the property was logged about 5 to 7 years ago and that any trees of real value were removed from this area.



If the NYC DEP wrote the plan I would refer back to it as they *may* have some say in how the property is managed *IF* you or the previous owner sold off some environmental easements.

The NYC DEP have been buying those easments like mad for the purpose of preserving the watershed.

http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dep/home.html


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## JUDGE1162

Yeah I know about those, it is not an easement it a grant to do a forest management plan it is through Watershed Agricultural Council (funded by the NYSDEP) since my land is in watershed area they offer this program to any land owner with more than 15 acres to make sure you don't clear cut your land and when you do log your land that the right erosion controls are used and to let landowners know about that is avalible to them and so questionable loggers don't screw them and clear cut the land.

The only limits is the land must stay a forest for 10 years (real limits I can not develope the land or use it as a farm field, I can log including clearcutting(if I replant))

There is another program that I am applying to for a tax credit which does limit the amount and type of logging I can do which is why I want to log it before I enter the program.


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## Doctor Dave

windthrown said:


> I do not advocate clear cutting the entire property or turning it into moonscape... even here with 105 acres here I would only cut 10% at a time. It is just that clear cutting can be beneficial if you have select cut a stand to a degraded quality that is not worth maintaining any more, for whatever reason; weak trees, poor canopy, disease, stagnant
> 
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> I understand your concerns about high-grading, but that was not what I was advocating. I had said: "...you want to leave the smaller trees of good form, so that you can log a couple times in your lifetime". This is just part of a prescription. In the Northeastern US, this would be part of "group selection", a method in which mature trees in a patch, from a quarter acre to an acre, are removed. This leaves enough room for regeneration of desired species from seed or stump sprouts; undesirable species would be culled, but smaller trees of good form of the desired species could be left. Care in logging can minimize damage to trees and soil. Different story with white pine or spruce; these are best regenerated with small clearcuts or or seed tree cuts in which a few dominant trees are left per acre. In the latter case, these trees are the least likely to blow over. The landowner has the option of keeping them for a multi-aged stand or cutting them after young trees are established.
> 
> I agree with others here that each site is best given a unique prescription that meets the owners' objectives. In fact, I have seen high-grading, and it may meet the owner's ill-informed objectives: he may not care about future income or maximizing forest potential, just the most money now--his choice.
> 
> BTW, How is it you are talking about old-growth Douglas-fir in West Africa?!
> High-grading in tropical forest is rampant, whether there or in SE Asia or SA, it's true. In a lot of cases, the owner's (if they ARE "owners") don't know or care about how to re-grow the large, valuable species of tropical hardwoods, and they just abandon the cut-over land to settlers and ranchers when they are done. Not too different from how many US forests were "managed" early on.


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## windthrown

*Not so clear... the cut*



Finnbear said:


> So clear-cutting is the only correct way to harvest a woodlot?
> Finnbear



No, I am not saying that clear cutting is the only method, or even the best way to harvest trees. What I am saying is that high-grade select cutting is probably the ~worst~ method I know of for logging. I do not know of any in silviculture who support high-grading, other than commercial merchants and wanna-be profiteers. Take the best, leave the crap, and be gone. Bad for the land-owner, bad for the environment, bad for the tree stand.


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## Doctor Dave

windthrown said:


> No, I am not saying that clear cutting is the only method, or even the best way to harvest trees. What I am saying is that high-grade select cutting is probably the ~worst~ method I know of for logging. I do not know of any in silviculture who support high-grading, other than commercial merchants and wanna-be profiteers. Take the best, leave the crap, and be gone. Bad for the land-owner, bad for the environment, bad for the tree stand.



But selective cutting does not neccessarily equate to high grading. See above.


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## windthrown

*West Africa explaination*



Doctor Dave said:


> windthrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, How is it you are talking about old-growth Douglas-fir in West Africa?!
> High-grading in tropical forest is rampant, whether there or in SE Asia or SA, it's true. In a lot of cases, the owner's (if they ARE "owners") don't know or care about how to re-grow the large, valuable species of tropical hardwoods, and they just abandon the cut-over land to settlers and ranchers when they are done. Not too different from how many US forests were "managed" early on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, in fact I live in central west Oregon, where Doug fir is the dominant species and clear-cutting is the only method used to harvest timber. I live in a remote area where hundreds of square miles of commercial timber is all around us, in variable states of 'gardening' as we call it. Clear-cut, planted baby trees, medium stands being thinned, older stands being cut, and some old growth preserves, BLM land, and nature 'island' stands.
> 
> I was getting some weird emails which seem to indicate that people are spamming me through this forum, so I scrambled my personal data so that no one can access any real information on me through this site. I get email from deposed African Presidents and the like who are interested in my transferring millions of dollars from Africa to the US... funny, all they need is direct access to a bank account that I set up and put money into... for them, to.... deposit the money into, of course. Yes, they will deposit millions of dollars... all I need to do is deposit a small sum of say, one thousand dollars to open the account.
> 
> :monkey:
Click to expand...


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## windthrown

*Select cut vs high grading*



Doctor Dave said:


> But selective cutting does not neccessarily equate to high grading. See above.



I agree 100%. However, in the case of this particular wood lot that the person was originally posting about, I believe that select cut means high-graded. They took the best trees and left the rest.


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## JUDGE1162

windthrown said:


> No, I am not saying that clear cutting is the only method, or even the best way to harvest trees. What I am saying is that high-grade select cutting is probably the ~worst~ method I know of for logging. I do not know of any in silviculture who support high-grading, other than commercial merchants and wanna-be profiteers. Take the best, leave the crap, and be gone. Bad for the land-owner, bad for the environment, bad for the tree stand.



I think your asumption that high grading or selective cuts only leave "the crap" is very wronge. In many mixed hardwood stands especially unmanaged stands you have in the young understory lots of high value trees that are shaded out by the older larger trees, when you remove the older larger trees you open up the canopy to these younger, smaller high value trees to increased light, water annd neutrients which increase their growth rate, also anyone who manages their land should already be removing "crap" species already so that the stand does not include these species (I use the crap species for firewood) The remaining highvalue trees in my case under 20 inch DBH reseed the cleared areas (large tree may shade out hundreds of square feet of forest floor)

SO if done right a high value cut increases the productively of the stand of timber by increasing the growth rate of younger more productive trees and by letting medium trees 16" to 20" DBH tree with some value become much more valuable down the road a 16" DBH tree could be worth 3X more as a 22" DHB tree


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## JUDGE1162

windthrown said:


> I agree 100%. However, in the case of this particular wood lot that the person was originally posting about, I believe that select cut means high-graded. They took the best trees and left the rest.



I was proposing to remove high value timber over 30" DBH, I spoke with a logger today and he said if we can back it off to 26" DBH he was more than willing to log it my way.

So high-graded selective cut of trees over 26" DBH plus some trees to make a logging road and trees in the way of felling the target trees, the logger will mark all trees for my approval.

SO yes I will remove all the high value trees but leave many valuable trees under 26" DBH. I manage my land and have removed/thinned many of the "crap trees" already.

With this approach I should be able to relog the land again in 20 to 30 years and still get a very nice return (all those 25" and small trees should put on 2 inches BHD per 10 years so in 20 years I could have an increase of 4" DBH and 30 years 6" DBH so anything that is 20" to 26" DBH now will be ready to relog again at a 26"

Bigger the tree more valuable it is

The probability of tree grade increases could theoretically approach 100% if thinnings were to begin early in a stand's life. Research into tree grade improvement in stands that had been thinned every 10 years for 40 years (Strong et al 1995) indicates that this was indeed the case in stands that had been moderately thinned (77 sq ft residual basal area). Average FS tree grades improved 110% on trees that grew 3.4" in 20 years (3" FS tree grades). Tree grade increases were 80% for light (88 sq ft residual basal area) and heavy (62 sq ft residual basal area) thinnings with 3.2" and 3.6" diameter increases, respectively.


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## windthrown

*High grading...*



JUDGE1162 said:


> I think your asumption that high grading or selective cuts only leave "the crap" is very wronge. In many mixed hardwood stands especially unmanaged stands you have in the young understory lots of high value trees that are shaded out by the older larger trees, when you remove the older larger trees you open up the canopy to these younger, smaller high value trees to increased light, water annd neutrients which increase their growth rate, also anyone who manages their land should already be removing "crap" species already so that the stand does not include these species (I use the crap species for firewood) The remaining highvalue trees in my case under 20 inch DBH reseed the cleared areas (large tree may shade out hundreds of square feet of forest floor)
> 
> SO if done right a high value cut increases the productively of the stand of timber by increasing the growth rate of younger more productive trees and by letting medium trees 16" to 20" DBH tree with some value become much more valuable down the road a 16" DBH tree could be worth 3X more as a 22" DHB tree



You can certainly do what you want with your stand, as long as it is within the law. However, high grading around here means pulling out all the good stuff and leaving the rest. A 'cut everything this size and up' is pretty much a high-grade cut. What you seem to be saying is that you are doing a prescribed select cut ('done right'), which is different. One question I would ask is what would the value of the larger stuff be if you left the biggies and cut the slightly smaller stuff? All tree species have a maximum growth rate with gains in thinning and optimum times to cut. Larger diameter trees may or may not grow faster at any specific size, but in the end you may get more wood and money from a larger size tree stand. You may be better off leaving some areas of larger trees to harvest next time. I would certainly leave some of the largest trees as 'leave trees' to reproduce at least. Otherwise you are culling your stand for shorter growth over time. 

You may be better off to thin and cull some of the crappy money trees when you harvest the large stuff as well. Thinning has a huge impact in overall board feet that you can harvest. But culling and thinning all of the so called 'crap' species trees may have a good or bad impact on your stand. Most trees have different levels of roots and in many cases different species can be more beneficial to each other if they are left in the stand than taking them all out. It also depends on what type of forest you want to have growing. Monoculture is not a good method of stand management in my view either. Yes, I am controvercial when it comes to silviculture, but I have seen some amazing things growing around here that defy standard and common practices. opcorn:


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## Doctor Dave

windthrown said:


> Doctor Dave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, in fact I live in central west Oregon, where Doug fir is the dominant species and clear-cutting is the only method used to harvest timber. I live in a remote area where hundreds of square miles of commercial timber is all around us, in variable states of 'gardening' as we call it. Clear-cut, planted baby trees, medium stands being thinned, older stands being cut, and some old growth preserves, BLM land, and nature 'island' stands.
> 
> I was getting some weird emails which seem to indicate that people are spamming me through this forum, so I scrambled my personal data so that no one can access any real information on me through this site. I get email from deposed African Presidents and the like who are interested in my transferring millions of dollars from Africa to the US... funny, all they need is direct access to a bank account that I set up and put money into... for them, to.... deposit the money into, of course. Yes, they will deposit millions of dollars... all I need to do is deposit a small sum of say, one thousand dollars to open the account.
> 
> :monkey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotten those too. Why do they pick on tree guys? (Actually, they don't) It's the infamous Nigerian bank account scam. You'd be surprised at how many people fall for it. It's really no different than a con man coming up to you, saying, "hey, I've got a sure thing, give me 10 dollars, and I'll double your money" And the guy runs around the corner with your ten and dissappears.
Click to expand...


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## NYCHA FORESTER

JUDGE1162 said:


> SO yes I will remove all the high value trees but leave many valuable trees under 26" DBH.
> 
> Bigger the tree more valuable it is
> 
> The probability of tree grade increases could theoretically approach 100% if thinnings were to begin early in a stand's life. Research into tree grade improvement in stands that had been thinned every 10 years for 40 years (Strong et al 1995) indicates that this was indeed the case in stands that had been moderately thinned (77 sq ft residual basal area). Average FS tree grades improved 110% on trees that grew 3.4" in 20 years (3" FS tree grades). Tree grade increases were 80% for light (88 sq ft residual basal area) and heavy (62 sq ft residual basal area) thinnings with 3.2" and 3.6" diameter increases, respectively.



Looks like you did some homework. Good info, I gather (Strong et al 1995) was referring to a similar forest type to yours.


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## JUDGE1162

It was done in a hardwood mix forest in the midwest so not identical but not data on pine stands in oregon either. I looked at some data from the Allegheny national forest in PA, which should be pretty close to the catskills, and it was even better, more growth per year and better chance of increasing forest service (FS) grade in 10 year span of time.


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## lsylvain

Itried to find an article I read today but I can't seem to find it again. Here is the jist. I can't remember the exact numbers so all numbers are just rough.

about 380 acres that had been clear cut in the 20's in Virginia.

In the early 80's it was clear cut again resulting in over 500 million board feet of wood.

It was replanted and then thined about 8 years later. From that thining they got 32 cords per acre.

It was thined again in the 90's and I can't for the life of me remember how much came out of the second thining but it was more than the 1st.

It is scedualed to be clear cut again in the early 2010's with an estimated 1 million plus board feet from the harvest.

Moral of the story, by proper management and selectivly cutting out the undisirables they generated 2 times the timber in half the time.


So my .02 if you want to make money and don't mind the buzz cut look for a couple of years clear cut it. If you don't want the clear cut look. I would go out and find some firewood people and let them take out all the small less desirable stuff just to get all of that out of the way and make a couple bucks, while you search for a logger who will do what you want. Another option would be to clearcut only a portion such as the back 10 acres replant it and then in 10 years when you need to thin the back 10 clear cut the middle 10 at the same time and replant it. After another 10 thin the 20 previous acres and clear cut another 10. 10 years later do the same thing on the front 10. Then start all over again.


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## ciscoguy01

JUDGE1162 said:


> OK, I bought forty acres in the Catskills, I am looking to have it logged but only want to do a selective cut, I had a forestry plan done last year (NYCDEP grant), I have been told that a portion (1/3) of the property was logged about 5 to 7 years ago and that any trees of real value were removed from this area. But on the back portion of the property there are some valuable trees (Cherry, Maple and Oak) with 30"+ DBH. The forestry plan estimated over $15K worth of cherry alone. I called a couple logging companies and they said they are not interested in a selective cut, they want to cut every hardwood tree (the property is 90% hardwood if not more) over 20" DBH. (That is a selective cut for them)
> 
> I am I missing something here? How much wood does a logger need to remove to make it worth it for them? We had agreed to a 50/50 split of the sale of the trees (for the cherry alone that should be $7,500 a piece) and I keep the tops for firewood.
> 
> The only limits I had was nothing within 200 feet of the house and only trees of real value (Oaks, Cherry, Maple, etc.) I have a lot of poplar and birch some elm which I would like to keep. The property is 800 feet wide by 2500 feet long; I think a 200 X 200 no cut area is fair, I already checked no Cherry in the 200 X 200 and much of that 200 X 200 area this is the area that was logged 5 to 7 years ago.
> 
> Let me know if I am being unreasonable




I'm not sure how you feel about your land, but when you let a logger on, make sure they don't leave it like they did my picture below. That's how they left a piece of land that wasn't very strictly monitored through the whole process. It's definitely not every logger that does this, but there are a few of them out there...


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## windthrown

lsylvain said:


> Moral of the story, by proper management and selectivly cutting out the undisirables they generated 2 times the timber in half the time.
> 
> 
> So my .02 if you want to make money and don't mind the buzz cut look for a couple of years clear cut it. If you don't want the clear cut look. I would go out and find some firewood people and let them take out all the small less desirable stuff just to get all of that out of the way and make a couple bucks, while you search for a logger who will do what you want. Another option would be to clearcut only a portion such as the back 10 acres replant it and then in 10 years when you need to thin the back 10 clear cut the middle 10 at the same time and replant it. After another 10 thin the 20 previous acres and clear cut another 10. 10 years later do the same thing on the front 10. Then start all over again.



Yep. I have to agree 100% on this Rx... :biggrinbounce2:


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## Ryan Willock

One thing that you have to watchout for on this forum is free advice from people that have NO PERSONAL experience with logging or a timber sale! If you really want to manage your woods then you need to talk to someone like gypo or I would be happy to talk to you and give you some advice. I have cut millions of feet of timber with percentage based splits with the landowner, I PREFER to buy the timber outright as its alot cleaner neater deal for me and I can normally get the timber for less but I must be mistaken as so many other experts have commented in this thread. I've never had a landowner complain that they didn't get their money's worth from the split. There are crummy fly by nights in every business. But if you don't do YOUR do diligence then if you get screwed its YOUR FAULT!!!! Shame on YOU!


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## JUDGE1162

Ryan Willock glad to hear I thought I was going nuts, I have always been told that a % split was the best way to do a timber sale, especially fi you really don't know what the stand is worth. Yes I can see how the logger could screw over a landowner by cutting a side deal with the lumber mill, but that is the land owners respisablity to watch what trees are cut, what trees are loaded, and what trees show up at the saw mill, this way the only way a land owner can really get screwed is by low grading at the mill that is a hard one to fight since most landowners are not proffesion lumber graders. I have and reccomend a timber study for my property they ted to be less then $500 for 50 acres and it tells you the mix of trees you have, management techiques to maxiumize your timber growth and value, it shows you any truely valuable trees, what to expect from a timber sale what trees to cut and what type to replant.

I met with my logger this week, he marked each trees he wants to cut and which trees he thinks he needs to remove to get to each tree and where the logging road will be. I took the advice of one of the other people on the board reccomended which was to mark the base of the tree to to make sure that they don't take more trees that they planned and if they do that they tell me and either leave it for me for firewood or pay me for it. This is another good reason for the whole %split payment on a flat price how do you value those extra tree that had to come down during logging for what ever reason. Most time on a flat price you don't get paid for them with the % payment you get paid for every tree that is removed from the property.


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## ciscoguy01

*References*



JUDGE1162 said:


> Ryan Willock glad to hear I thought I was going nuts, I have always been told that a % split was the best way to do a timber sale, especially fi you really don't know what the stand is worth. Yes I can see how the logger could screw over a landowner by cutting a side deal with the lumber mill, but that is the land owners respisablity to watch what trees are cut, what trees are loaded, and what trees show up at the saw mill, this way the only way a land owner can really get screwed is by low grading at the mill that is a hard one to fight since most landowners are not proffesion lumber graders. I have and reccomend a timber study for my property they ted to be less then $500 for 50 acres and it tells you the mix of trees you have, management techiques to maxiumize your timber growth and value, it shows you any truely valuable trees, what to expect from a timber sale what trees to cut and what type to replant.
> 
> I met with my logger this week, he marked each trees he wants to cut and which trees he thinks he needs to remove to get to each tree and where the logging road will be. I took the advice of one of the other people on the board reccomended which was to mark the base of the tree to to make sure that they don't take more trees that they planned and if they do that they tell me and either leave it for me for firewood or pay me for it. This is another good reason for the whole %split payment on a flat price how do you value those extra tree that had to come down during logging for what ever reason. Most time on a flat price you don't get paid for them with the % payment you get paid for every tree that is removed from the property.



I say this. Here in the dacks, about 2 yrs ago, some cats from over in NH took a few folks for a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of wood. They were a legit outfit, seemed well organized, yada yada yada they said. It took them a year or so to catch up with them, and the people didn't even know what had been done to them. I forget how they found out. Anyhoot, to make a long story short, ask for a few references, call the better business bureau to check on complaints for the company you use, it won't hurt just to check, nothing lost, could be alot gained from checking around. Find out the dude's name your signing the contract with, run a background check on him, trust me, this isn't a bad thing. Make sure you know how long they've been in business for, not some new company or fly by night deal just doing a quick bit of business. Are they from NY? You think it'd be easy tracking them down in PA or MA if something did go awry? The people that got taken for a ride here in the dacks were pretty upset when they found out what was done to them, they gave all the advice above before choosing any logger. Unless your going to be there every single day to check over what is going on, I'd suggest you do at least a couple of the above.


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## Monk

*your trees*

I am a logger myself and have cut thousands of acres of ground we deal strictly off of percentage it pays the landowner much better. An average bid is 10 to 13 cents a foot straight through we average 60 to 70 cents a ft when we sell it. Which would give you 30 to 35 cents a ft. But you have to find an honest logger like was mentioned above and I hate to say it but they are few and far between. I would do a select cut like you want to mark the trees, count them and paint them chest hiegth and right at the ground.

Hardwoods don't grow very fast ecspecially where you are. we cut for a guy that cut his timber every 10 years. One time he would do the maples 15 inches and up at chest hite. 10 years later the oaks the same way. 10 years after that the cherry. If he had some other trees in there he would through them in a year that there wasn't many trees to cut. It gave him a 30 year cycle and it seams to work pretty good last summer we took cherry trees off there 4 and 5 Ft across. Just food for thought if you would like some more advice or thoughts feel free to email me.


Jeremy Hart
2-ms660, ms084, ms200t
2-jd440b


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## 380LGR

ALWAYS check ref's every gypsy hopes you dont. Every horror story I hear they Never checked them out!!! Like anything theres good ones and bad ones.


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## CRN Tree

It's your property remember that we've done jobs where the land owner marks out the trees to be cut and sees the check from the mill. We get a sheet stating what every tree brought so you know what each tree was worth. You marking the trees is the only way you are sure what is cut. A 50/50 split seems a little low but it all depends. 
:monkey:


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## Wolf66

*I may be able to help*

I made the mistake of trusting a logger on my 65 acre property and he promised me 45k. He came in and took all the best wood; black walnut, cherry,oak, etc, made a huge mess; never flush cut one top to slash, cut all stumps 3-4' above ground, never bulldozed the huge ruts the skidder left as they did it in mud season. It was a complete diaster. To top it off, we only recieved 6k and the sub contracter he used was paid over 40k, + the logger purchased a nice second hand forwarder. I got stiffed and found out that there are more non honest loggers in our area (NY) than honest ones. Then you have the saw mills that must be local for such a small amount of wood, and they are even worse. The best thing I can offer people being a Tree Service owner and operator for over 11 years with excelent refrences in the hundreds and 18 years in the industry, is either have a actual forester to come and pay you up front with all your agreements in writting, not just thiers. What I can offer at best is to bring my equipment to your location and you can personaly come to the mill with me to follow every step of the way and recieve a copy of all the paperwork. Driving my tri axle logging truck to your location is not to bad, but through a skidder into the equasion and it is hard for me to turn a profit. Are there any access roads to the wood? Can you skid the wood curbside with a truck or dozer, tracter,etc? I am still in the market for a skidder and even after I get one, a 20 ton tag along trailer is needed and now cost to get all this to and from your job is a lot of $. What I am offering local customers is I will take a 40% cut, but my cost comes out of your 60%. Bigger company's either dont want to be bothered or are looking to cheat you as they did me, and smaller honest folks like myself have higher cost, hence it is hard to get involved in a smaller job with little profit. I recently took 1700 board feet to a mill for a friend and I expected to get paid at least 1500-$1800. and this local mill gave us next to nothing. My friend and myself took a horrible beating. I am looking into sending my wood to canada or trying other mills. It is a toug busisness. PS who told you the value of the wood and why does he not buy it?


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## USFWC

You have gotten a lot of advice on what to do on here. Some of it good, most not so good. Hire a consulting forester. On average, you wil receive 30% more for a sale than without one. Since they accept a percent of the sale as payment, it is in their best interests to get you as much as possible for the timber that YOU decide to cut. They will inventory it and make suggestions on what you should do based on your objectives and the data from the inventory, but the final choice is always up to you. 

A 'diameter limit cut' is not always a bad thing. The first cut on your property, in my opinion should usually be one to get rid of a lot of the poorly-formed trees. On down the line, a diameter limit cut may be suggested based on what your goals are for your property. If the mills in the area cannot process trees over 24 inches dbh (example only), then it makes sense not to let your trees to get larger than that dbh, right? Unless, of course, you are leaving some mast/wildlife trees. There are trends and relationships that a forester is aware of in the diameter distribution of an uneven-aged stand that make it fairly obvious how many trees and of what size (again...dbh) need to be removed from the stand. Each cut always taking the poorest formed first to reach the target number of trees in the dbh class. This, over time, will significantly improve your forest stands and maximize your returns, assuming you live long enough to see enough cuttings. If you plan on passing your property on to your family, this is a great way to leave something of value to them. Diameter cuts are not always high-grading. I wouldn't suggest clearcutting it as someone suggested, unless it is Quaking Aspen as it requires it for good regeneration. Feel free to pm me or e-mail me at [email protected] if you ever have any questions.


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## sesmith

It's your land...you make the rules. I would recommend getting all the information you can before you sign anyone's contract. Here in NYS you have access to some great sources of information on forest management:

First, here's a link for the MFO program. You can schedule a visit from an MFO, who is a forest owner like yourself. He or she can give you a lot of information and contacts.
http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/mfo/index.htm

Second, (and it looks like you may have done this) you can have the DEC regional forester visit you for free and help with your forest plan. I'm not familiar with the details of the New York City watershed grant, but around here the DEC forester will visit with you and come up with a written management plan that is in line with what your long term goals are for your land.

Another great source of information is through NYFOA, the New York Forest Owners Association:
http://www.nyfoa.org/

Last, a good suggestion that was already mentioned is to pay a consulting forester to mark the trees and put them out to bid. You may find that you'll get much more than the logging company is willing to pay when you deal directly, and the consulting forester can work on your behalf, to make sure that the logging is done in accordance with your wishes and that best management practices are used.

Scott


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