# Husky 450 Rancher & Granberg G777



## kirkdb (Jun 21, 2022)

Looking to do some basic milling of DF. My Husky 450 rancher has a 20” “pixel” bar and chain with a laminated bar. Granberg requires a solid bar on their G777. Unfortunately, I’ve struggled to find a solid bar that will match the 450 rancher small mount in .325 .050 80DL. Does anyone have experience with this saw that can provide recommendations?

Also, anyone using the G777 (Single sided bar support) with a laminated bar? How well does it work?

Much appreciated!

Kirk


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 24, 2022)

I wouldn't run it with a laminated bar. Best bet is to get this lo pro setup, amazing demo deal, I got a new one at full cost for my Makita 64cc saw and the G777 but am switching it to my 455 Rancher because I have two Ranchers and I'm running 36" lo pro on the Makita on a normal Alaskan now. https://www.chainsawbars.co.uk/prod...-pro-050-72-drive-links-ex-demo-kit-to-clear/
If you find something else to order to get it to $120, shipping is free from the UK. You need the Stihl 12mm to K095 8mm adapter which they're out of stock on, so I ordered mine on Ebay. One more hiccup, though, I had to get a 3/8 rim sprocket setup from Ebay too for $19 to put the lo pro sprocket on because my Ranchers have 3/8 spur sprockets. Again, couldn't find one on the chainsawbars site. May be too much to bother with for you to switch everything out, but lo pro works unbelievably well on that mill with modest cc saws compared to normal .325 or 3/8.
Nearly nothing lo pro but chains is available in the US (no sprockets or bars) but this place's shipping is so fast and their prices and expertise so good, I order all my lo pro gear from them. Europe and UK use a ton of lo pro for milling to get more out of lesser saws. US market just believes in only using 90-120cc saws for milling. I'm almost tempted to keep buying every lo pro demo package they have and start reselling them in the US to people who want to mill with 50-70cc saws. Bought a pair of demo (basically new) 36" bars and chains and a sprocket for $135 (nearly $450 in new gear) a couple of weeks ago again after paying $153 full price on the first bar I bought.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 24, 2022)

This is awesome. Will take a few reads to fully regurgitate but high level makes sense. I've no real world experience changing bar / chain sizes on a chainsaw so its a new set of terminology for me to understand. I suspect I can reach out to these folks and have them verify what I need to order. Once I have the parts, the mechanics of it should be easy enough. Thanks for this!


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 24, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> This is awesome. Will take a few reads to fully regurgitate but high level makes sense. I've no real world experience changing bar / chain sizes on a chainsaw so its a new set of terminology for me to understand. I suspect I can reach out to these folks and have them verify what I need to order. Once I have the parts, the mechanics of it should be easy enough. Thanks for this!


One hiccup to this plan. Husqvarna made a strange little incompatible beast in the 450 Rancher. I can't find any compatible 3/8" drum sprocket, they seemingly designed it only to work with the .325, where the 455 and 460 Ranchers come in 3/8. If you have a Pixel bar already, I think that's .325 Narrow Kerf chain which is comparable to 3/8 lo pro. So in effect you have a lo pro setup already. Only problem is it's a laminate bar. You could give it a go for a bit but sooner or later you're likely to bend the bar. Don't know any other options. Husky made an oddly proprietary saw with that model.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 24, 2022)

Don't know where you are in Colorado, took a quick look on Craigslist and there's a very nice 64cc Stihl MS391 for $300 somewhere south of Denver - they're $680 new - which would be a far better milling saw for the G777. You probably aren't looking to add another saw and just work with what you have, but it's unfortunately not an especially compatible saw with very much.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 25, 2022)

Yah that’s been my problem on the 450. Originally got it just to cut up fallen trees. Works great for that. Picked up the G777 and didn’t see the solid bar requirement until after the fact. Such is life. Will try the laminated bar but long term will look for a used chainsaw or a new knockoff. 

I’m in western Colorado btw. Try to avoid the big cities on the east side


----------



## J D (Jun 25, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> One hiccup to this plan. Husqvarna made a strange little incompatible beast in the 450 Rancher. I can't find any compatible 3/8" drum sprocket, they seemingly designed it only to work with the .325, where the 455 and 460 Ranchers come in 3/8. If you have a Pixel bar already, I think that's .325 Narrow Kerf chain which is comparable to 3/8 lo pro. So in effect you have a lo pro setup already. Only problem is it's a laminate bar. You could give it a go for a bit but sooner or later you're likely to bend the bar. Don't know any other options. Husky made an oddly proprietary saw with that model.


I'm reasonably sure the 34x, 35x, 44x, 45x, 46x saws all have interchangable clutch drums if you swap the worm drive to fit the drum. Bare in mind the worm drive has to match the pitch of the oil pump too as the fixed oilers are different to the adjustable ones


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 26, 2022)

J D said:


> I'm reasonably sure the 34x, 35x, 44x, 45x, 46x saws all have interchangable clutch drums if you swap the worm drive to fit the drum. Bare in mind the worm drive has to match the pitch of the oil pump too as the fixed oilers are different to the adjustable ones


I thought it pretty likely there was a way but more than someone with limited experience of messing with saws would want to do. A lot of folks lately are hoping to do a bit of milling with their existing firewood saw, but end of the day it's not really that practical in most cases. You always want a saw on hand to do crosscutting at the same time you're milling, so owning two saws is really kind of a basic minimum for milling. I think the second saw makes more sense as a 64-80cc felling saw that you can use for milling too though than the trend in the US of just going to a dedicated milling saw, 90+cc incredibly heavy clone saw of Stihl or Husky (because everyone is too cheap now to spend money on the real thing).


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 26, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Yah that’s been my problem on the 450. Originally got it just to cut up fallen trees. Works great for that. Picked up the G777 and didn’t see the solid bar requirement until after the fact. Such is life. Will try the laminated bar but long term will look for a used chainsaw or a new knockoff.
> 
> I’m in western Colorado btw. Try to avoid the big cities on the east side


Like I said in my other comment, would look for a good used Stihl or Husky (or Makita) rather than a new knockoff. A properly built out knockoff with the guaranteed-to-break parts replaced with OEM runs at least $500 despite the lure of $150 or $300 kits they advertise. Check pawn shops now and then. I got one 455 Rancher for $200 at a pawn shop and my Makita 64cc for $180 off of CL. The Makita 6421's were a Home Depot rental fleet saw for awhile when HD was renting saws, then they sold them all off cheap. Don't come up very often for sale but sometimes great deals when they do.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 26, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> I thought it pretty likely there was a way but more than someone with limited experience of messing with saws would want to do. A lot of folks lately are hoping to do a bit of milling with their existing firewood saw, but end of the day it's not really that practical in most cases. You always want a saw on hand to do crosscutting at the same time you're milling, so owning two saws is really kind of a basic minimum for milling. I think the second saw makes more sense as a 64-80cc felling saw that you can use for milling too though than the trend in the US of just going to a dedicated milling saw, 90+cc incredibly heavy clone saw of Stihl or Husky (because everyone is too cheap now to spend money on the real thing).


Sorta … in my case at least. Like all folks new to a craft / hobby, I’m nowhere near an expert. I’ve run <24” chainsaws on and off throughout my life. But, that’s where my expertise ended. When we bought our property, I picked up a Makita 40v battery chainsaw. For what it is, it’s quite impressive. I wanted something the wife would be comfortable using. Later, after taking down 10 or so trees, I picked up the husky to get a little extra power and to not have to retire for the day after all the batteries were spent. In the back of my mind, I figured I could eventually use the saw for light milling. Due to the g777 solid bar requirement, I was wrong. Should have picked up a more compatible husky. That’s fine. Live and learn. At this point though, considering the low volume of logs I’d mill each year, I have to consider whether the investment into an $800 saw is worth it to me. A knock off or a used saw keeps me in the game. I suspect that’s a similar train of thought for many just getting started with milling. I could invest thousands and decide it’s not for me. Not a wise approach imho. Not to mention, at some point you approach the cost of a $3000 band saw mill.

Anyhow, I appreciate all the feedback. Food for thought is much cheaper than actual food these days. If anyone knows of a means to an end with the 450 rancher, please post it. Otherwise, I’ll do some light milling with the laminated bar until I come across a to good to pass up deal on a used saw or a Black Friday on a new one.

Thanks Ya’ll …

Kirk


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 26, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> At this point though, considering the low volume of logs I’d mill each year, I have to consider whether the investment into an $800 saw is worth it to me. A knock off or a used saw keeps me in the game. I suspect that’s a similar train of thought for many just getting started with milling. I could invest thousands and decide it’s not for me.


Fully agree. That's why I've been pushing people toward lo pro to make use of existing 50-70cc saws. Just doesn't seem it will work out with yours without a lot of tweaking. Even the 455 Rancher I'm trying to adapt I'm wondering if it's worth the bother now. The Stihl (12mm) to Rancher (8mm) bar adapter is not that common and had to spend $20 ordering it from New England Pine (there's a cheaper one on Ebay but distrustful of quality). The lo pro rim sprockets I have don't fit the Rancher it turns out - they're for 60+cc saws as I thought. So have to order the small spline lo pro rim sprocket from Chainsawbars. As far as the G777 mill and the tricky 20" solid bar requirement, I think ultimately it's worth the hassle of getting a setup that works with it. It's just so light with a 50-60cc saw it's a joy to work with compared to a standard Alaskan mill and big saw, especially when resawing for lumber. 

A lot of the clone owners crow that their saw paid for itself in a short time so no matter if it's disposable or doesn't last, they only have a few hundred dollars in it. I spent $400 on my first Stihl 87cc milling saw second hand, I'd never dream of spending $1000-2000 on a saw as a newbie, so I get that new big brand saws are only a viable choice for serious pros. But I'm a serious re-use, re-cycle, make existing things last forever kinda guy, so I like second hand name saws I can trust that will always retain value. You've got the right approach - mill some with what you have, see if you're hooked on the milling thing before you upgrade a bit more.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 26, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> Fully agree. That's why I've been pushing people toward lo pro to make use of existing 50-70cc saws. Just doesn't seem it will work out with yours without a lot of tweaking. Even the 455 Rancher I'm trying to adapt I'm wondering if it's worth the bother now. The Stihl (12mm) to Rancher (8mm) bar adapter is not that common and had to spend $20 ordering it from New England Pine (there's a cheaper one on Ebay but distrustful of quality). The lo pro rim sprockets I have don't fit the Rancher it turns out - they're for 60+cc saws as I thought. So have to order the small spline lo pro rim sprocket from Chainsawbars. As far as the G777 mill and the tricky 20" solid bar requirement, I think ultimately it's worth the hassle of getting a setup that works with it. It's just so light with a 50-60cc saw it's a joy to work with compared to a standard Alaskan mill and big saw, especially when resawing for lumber.
> 
> A lot of the clone owners crow that their saw paid for itself in a short time so no matter if it's disposable or doesn't last, they only have a few hundred dollars in it. I spent $400 on my first Stihl 87cc milling saw second hand, I'd never dream of spending $1000-2000 on a saw as a newbie, so I get that new big brand saws are only a viable choice for serious pros. But I'm a serious re-use, re-cycle, make existing things last forever kinda guy, so I like second hand name saws I can trust that will always retain value. You've got the right approach - mill some with what you have, see if you're hooked on the milling thing before you upgrade a bit more.


Wait ... last for ever .... not a concept I've been trained to understand ... lol

I agree and my big hesitation with clones .. although they claim to be interchangeable I've read many folks having a hard time replacing parts with the OEM equivalent as tolerances aren't there on the clones. I don't believe I've owned an engine that didn't need some part replaced at some point.

Good news, our community is having a silent auction next week to raise money for the volunteer fire department. I will be on the prowl for a commercial grade husky or stihl. If not now when?


----------



## Maintenance supervisor (Jun 26, 2022)

The ms660 knock offs work very well in a mill and are less then 300 right now.

Honestly when I look at the ad for most chainsaw mills it should be a indication that "50-70cc ( or more) " that the 450 is gonna be seriously under classed in a mill.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 26, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> I agree and my big hesitation with clones .. although they claim to be interchangeable I've read many folks having a hard time replacing parts with the OEM equivalent as tolerances aren't there on the clones. I don't believe I've owned an engine that didn't need some part replaced at some point.


The one saw that has been a near flawless chainsaw has been my Stihl 880. I've run it so hard in awful Texas heat for four years and the only thing that finally wore out was I wore such deep grooves in the spur sprocket that the sprocket split in half finally. Otherwise never hesitates to start second pull, never had to clean the carb or do a thing yet after many many hours milling. Only new saw I ever bought and through buying it in a foreign country when the exchange rate was heavily in my favor, I somehow managed to score the thing for about $950 with a 36" bar new. Was one of those "I'll never have to upgrade" purchases. Nice to have, but an unbelievable brute to run, and painfully heavy. So for all but big slab milling, it's less than ideal. Get into 30"+ hardwood slabs and it shines. My first 87cc Stihl milling saw and the parts saw I bought to go with it were probably my worst purchases, because I've wasted more time on them than they'll ever possibly be worth. I bought old mid-80's vintage Stihls without understanding the headaches that came with those particular models, flawed ignitions guaranteed to burn out, unavailable replacement ignitions, or bearings, or seals. Eventually picked up the OEM seals and bearings, got new jugs and pistons, repaired one ignition and got another aftermarket from Germany, rebuilt both from ground up, and I'm STILL trying to figure out how to get the rebuilt carbs not to flood and spit gas. Things are the bane of my existence, but I know I'm so close to making them a great pair of milling saws I won't give up. And they have good collector value.
Conventional wisdom about a 50cc saw being too little for milling is true assuming you run 3/8" or even normal .325, but running 3/8" lo pro or .325 narrow kerf is a way different story that only a few in the US are familiar with. Far less taxing on the saw and no problem at all in 12-17" softwoods, just don't run it too hard, keep the chain sharp, and let it rest between cuts. If I can blaze through 15-20" slabs of extreme hardwoods with a 36" lo pro bar on a 64cc saw, then a 50cc saw can handle softwoods with a 20" lo pro/narrow kerf bar. Become a chain sharpening expert and you'll outperform people with bigger saws routinely. Way too many people just use big saws to get away with running dull chains. Ninety percent of milling is proper sharpening. Most people never figure it out.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 26, 2022)

Maintenance supervisor said:


> The ms660 knock offs work very well in a mill and are less then 300 right now.View attachment 998856
> 
> Honestly when I look at the ad for most chainsaw mills it should be an indication that "50-70cc ( or more) " that the 450 is gonna be seriously under classed in a mill.


I purchased the mill on Amazon. They do not have the same warning about laminated bars on the Amazon product listing.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 26, 2022)

OK ... just found this ...

Oregon 200RNBK095 .050" Gauge .325" Pitch 20" Power Match Bar​The 450 rancher is not listed. However, the 450e is listed which uses the same bar and chain as the 450 rancher. This appears to be a solid bar design. Am I missing something? A few of the comments on the big A states it works on the 450 rancher.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 26, 2022)

This should work fine - 20" solid body bar, .325, K095 mount that fits your Rancher. https://www.amazon.com/Oregon-200RNBK095-Gauge-Pitch-Power/dp/B001SCL7DI. The narrow kerf chain runs fine on the normal .325 bars I gather but your 80 link chain on your Pixel won't work on this bar because this takes a 78 drive link chain. You'd want this, if you can find it in less than five packs. https://www.amazon.com/Husqvarna-581643678-SP33G-Chainsaw-Chain/dp/B083G8SWSG


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 26, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> OK ... just found this ...
> 
> Oregon 200RNBK095 .050" Gauge .325" Pitch 20" Power Match Bar​The 450 rancher is not listed. However, the 450e is listed which uses the same bar and chain as the 450 rancher. This appears to be a solid bar design. Am I missing something? A few of the comments on the big A states it works on the 450 rancher.


Had just found and was typing when you posted that. Definitely will work with the 450 Rancher. You just have to buy a 78dl Husqvarna SP33G chain as I said, can't use your 80dl chain that's on your Pixel on it. And it is going to be an aggressive crosscut tooth angle, would be more ideal for it to be a 10 degree ripping chain for milling but don't think anyone makes ripping chain in .325 narrow kerf. I helped my uncle mill pine in Florida with a Haddon lumbermaker about 20 years ago with I think the same 455 Rancher I inherited after he died. And that was with 3/8 chain. Was slow work but we did a lot of 12-15' long 2 x 12's or bigger.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 26, 2022)

So is 80DL just too long? Also, the 450R has a 7 tooth sprocket. How does that factor in here. I know pitch is important for obvious reasons. How does tooth count factor in. The Oregon bar states 12 tooth. This is my rookiness at its best


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 27, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> So is 80DL just too long? Also, the 450R has a 7 tooth sprocket. How does that factor in here. I know pitch is important for obvious reasons. How does tooth count factor in. The Oregon bar states 12 tooth. This is my rookiness at its best


Yes, the 80DL will be too long. Most tensioners don't have the range to even make up one drive link off. There are 12 teeth in the nose sprocket. Why they state that I have no idea cause it's not relevant to anything. A 7 tooth .325 drive sprocket is standard and will work fine with that bar and chain. Don't worry about rookie-ness. This kind of stuff drove me crazy for my first couple of years figuring out chainsaw gear. There are so many things between bar, chain, and sprocket to match up and manufacturers do a terrible job of explaining them. They might say what their stuff works with but when you get into DIY, different brands, custom mix and match setups, the manufacturer information is often next to useless to figuring out what you need. It took me forever to figure out lo pro because no one offered matching sprocket/bar/chain setups and explained it all til Chainsawbars in the UK went big on lo pro.
Something I really had to deep dive on not being familiar with Pixel chain. You can't buy that bar and put Pixel (SP33G) narrow kerf chain on it. So if you buy that bar, you need any regular .325 78 link chain for it. But not narrow kerf. Which is just as well, because it allows you to buy a ripping chain. https://www.amazon.com/Archer-325-050-78DL-Chainsaw-Husqvarna-K1CRP-78E/dp/B07X522VXJ


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 27, 2022)

That’s very helpful. Yah my next question if you don’t mind:

Is the bar or chain or both narrow kerf? My research indicated that kerf refers to the width of the cutting edge of the chain. But I also read elsewhere that narrow kerf bars bend easier. So that implied the bar and chain are both sized either standard or narrow kerf and pixel is synonymous with narrow kerf.

Is the drive sprocket on the chainsaw also narrow kerf?

Is 050 gauge by definition narrow kerf?

Computer science is leagues easier than chainsaws … just saying!

You’ve been awesomely helpful George. Thank you!


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 27, 2022)

Yeah, so, Pixel.... have to admit I'm trying to learn what the hell it is on the fly. No, .050 is not narrow kerf by definition. Just the narrowest rail groove. Oddly, there is no specification offered in chains for kerf. Gauge is the rail groove width and pitch is just chain spacing to match up sprockets to chain. Kerf is the actual width of the teeth, the width of the cut you make. You'd think it would be helpful to compare actual kerf widths but no manufacturer provides that info.

I have an engineering degree, and chainsaws are more complicated than a lot of engineering I did lol. I can't get good info on it, but some forums suggest Pixel is Husqvarna's version of lo pro, just as Stihl calls theirs Picco. Not sure about that. While some people claim lo pro and narrow kerf are the same thing, not always true. There are subtle differences to lo pro sprocket sizing that make it possible but ultimately damaging to run 3/8 lo pro chain on a standard 3/8" drive sprocket and nose sprocket. Narrow kerf sometimes means just a lesser width of teeth on a chain running on a standard drive sprocket, sometimes it means lo pro. Some people say that .325 chain and .325NK chain is run on the same .325 sprocket, but there's damn little clear info provided about it for the 450 Rancher. What makes me suspicious is there are no replacement drive sprockets offered anywhere for the 450 Rancher. There should be if it was a normal .325 sprocket like the 450e, 440, etc, that use bars that can mount on the 450 Rancher just fine. It seems designed exclusively for Pixel bars and chain with no info on whether anything else can be run on it. Maybe normal .325 can, maybe it can't, but Husqvarna sure ain't gonna help you find out. They just want you to run their Pixel line with it. Exasperating approach aimed at the mass consumer market that pro chainsaw users who want to vary their setups would never accept.


----------



## J D (Jun 27, 2022)

Thread 'Pixel chain and bar?' https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/pixel-chain-and-bar.110418/


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 27, 2022)

J D said:


> Thread 'Pixel chain and bar?' https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/pixel-chain-and-bar.110418/


Yeah, saw that, and it brought up as many questions as answers. The "expert" everyone deferred to there operates under the common misconception of many people that all that matters is that the pitch (.325, 3/8) matches the drive sprocket and nose sprocket, that lo pro or narrow kerf designation don't matter. I can assure you that's NOT true with 3/8 lo pro. You have to get a 3/8 lo pro drive sprocket and nose sprocket to match the chain. You can get away with lo pro 3/8 on a regular sprocket and bar for a bit but ultimately you'll ruin your sprockets from spacing mismatch. The "expert" on the thread claims you can't run a Pixel chain on a normal .325 bar because the bar is wider than the chain kerf which is nonsense. When you wear down lo pro chain a good bit it can eventually become the same width as a normal bar and the bar will pinch and not cut. But new chain, no, not the case. Way too much bad info being dispensed in forums because people just seem to love offering authoritative opinions on things they have little direct experience of working with. 

The sprocket sizing/spacing of 3/8 lo pro is such that to make your own, you grind down the outer circumference of a .404 sprocket. It has more in common with .404 spacing than 3/8. There is no such thing as .325 lo pro best I can make out, just .325 narrow kerf chain and bars. My impression is that unlike 3/8 and 3/8 lo pro which are incompatible, .325 and .325NK both run fine on a .325 sprocket. There is no special narrow kerf sprocket for .325.

So... my best guess is that for Kirk's solution, the Oregon solid bar and regular 78 drive link .325 chain on it will work fine on the 450 Rancher. The saw appears to have a standard .325 7 tooth sprocket.


----------



## J D (Jun 29, 2022)

I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.
Chain pitch must match the chainsaw drive rim/spur & the bar nose sprocket.
Whilst 3/8 & 3/8 low pro are technically the same pitch, the drive links are significantly different & should generally be considered to be their own individual & incompatible pitches.
Guage (043, 050, 058, 063, etc) is the thickness of the chains drive links & should match the bar groove or excessive wear & poor performance will result.
Kerf refers to the width of the slot cut by the bar/chain. This is the result of cutter design, sharpening, chain wear, & the overall width of the bar/chain.
Terms like "Picco" & "Pixel" are manufacturers designators for their chains with reduced chassis thickness & cutter geometry designed to be lighter & cut a narrower kerf resulting in less load on the power head compared to a regular chain. They are available in 043 & 050 guages & 1/4, 3/8 low pro, & .325 pitches as far as I'm aware. These chains can be freely mixed & matched with bars provided pitch (refer to above re 3/8 & 3/8 low pro) & guage match.
HOWEVER...
Running a narrow kerf chain on a regular bar may result in binding as the chain may not remove enough material for the bar to remain free (especially after being sharpened a few times). For ripping/slabbing this will be less significant than for x-cutting.
Running a regular chain on a NK bar can cause increased bar wear as the wider chain isn't as well supported & will rock more if sharpening isn't even & consistent.
NK chains can have shorter cutters than their regular counterparts giving you fewer sharpens. Due to their lighter construction they will likely suffer worse from contact with objects other than wood.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 29, 2022)

J D said:


> I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.


Now that 02c is worth at least a dollar. All good clear info. A basic rule of thumb is run lo pro or narrow kerf chain on a matching lo pro/nk bar. Normal chain on matching normal bar. Aside from the technical reasons, it just makes no sense to ever mix them. The only time I've heard of people using lo pro chain on normal bars is in America where GB lo pro bars are unavailable so anyone milling in lo pro with bars longer than 18" has been forced to use a normal bar with a lo pro nose sprocket fitted on to it. I order my GB lo pro bars from Chainsawbars in England so not a problem.


----------



## kirkdb (Jun 29, 2022)

J D said:


> I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.
> Chain pitch must match the chainsaw drive rim/spur & the bar nose sprocket.
> Whilst 3/8 & 3/8 low pro are technically the same pitch, the drive links are significantly different & should generally be considered to be their own individual & incompatible pitches.
> Guage (043, 050, 058, 063, etc) is the thickness of the chains drive links & should match the bar groove or excessive wear & poor performance will result.
> ...


Is it accurate to say that a narrow kerf bar has an overall narrow bar thickness as well as chain thickness? Even though the gauge of the bar is standard (Eg, .050). Also, is it accurate to say that drive sprockets are NOT narrow kerf or low pro by design. In other words, drive sprockets are compatible with both narrow and standard kerf so long as the pitch is the same?


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 29, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Is it accurate to say that a narrow kerf bar has an overall narrow bar thickness as well as chain thickness? Even though the gauge of the bar is standard (Eg, .050). Also, is it accurate to say that drive sprockets are NOT narrow kerf or low pro by design. In other words, drive sprockets are compatible with both narrow and standard kerf so long as the pitch is the same?


It is accurate that narrow kerf/lo pro bar is a thinner bar, while the gauge .050 remains standard. In the case of 3/8 lo pro, the most common standard, it is NOT accurate to say that drive sprockets are NOT lo pro design. Double negative there, so more simply, 3/8 lo pro sprockets are lo pro by design and not compatible with normal 3/8 chain and vice versa. However, to the best of my knowledge, .325 drive sprockets are compatible with both .325NK and normal .325 chain. I think this tends to be the distinction between the terms "narrow kerf" and "lo pro" and why they are not interchangeable terms despite some people thinking they are. Narrow kerf chain usually describes a narrow tooth chain that runs on a standard sprocket, while lo pro chain is a chain that runs on a specifically lo pro sprocket - the drive sprocket comes in a "3/8LP" designation stamped on it or in Stihl's case with Picco they just stamp P-7 on a 7 tooth Picco (lo pro) sprocket.


----------



## thenne1713 (Jun 29, 2022)

J D said:


> I'll give my 02c... hopefully it brings more answers than questions.
> Chain pitch must match the chainsaw drive rim/spur & the bar nose sprocket.
> Whilst 3/8 & 3/8 low pro are technically the same pitch, the drive links are significantly different & should generally be considered to be their own individual & incompatible pitches.
> Guage (043, 050, 058, 063, etc) is the thickness of the chains drive links & should match the bar groove or excessive wear & poor performance will result.
> ...


PICCO is STIHL term for LP Low Profile chain


----------



## J D (Jun 30, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> It is accurate that narrow kerf/lo pro bar is a thinner bar, while the gauge .050 remains standard.


You are associating narrow kerf & low profile, these are distinctly different things & aren't necessarily related (like saying a "bigger" box will always be wider)
Low Profile (Lo Pro) refers to the height geometry of the cutter being lower. A smaller cutter needs less support so the chassis & drive links can be smaller. The pitch (average distance between rivets) is still 3/8" but as the height of the chain is less & the gap between the drive links is greater lo pro requires its own spur/rim (which, as stated is conveniently close to .404)
Narrow kerf (NK) refers to the width geometry of the cutter being less.
As far as I'm aware the only 3/8lp chain considered narrow kerf is 043 guage.
The NK variant of .325 chain is only available in 050 guage.
A narrow kerf bar will usually be .020"-.030" thinner than it's regular counterpart.


----------



## J D (Jun 30, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> PICCO is STIHL term for LP Low Profile chain


Stihl sells variants of 1/4" chain as Picco also.
However, I should not have inferred that Picco designates narrow kerf as that is not the case & unfortunately Stihls chain naming system doesn't readily translate to generic characteristics


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 30, 2022)

J D said:


> You are associating narrow kerf & low profile, these are distinctly different things & aren't necessarily related (like saying a "bigger" box will always be wider)


I put a slash there instead of an “and” in a quick attempt to assure Kirk that both lo pro and narrow kerf bars are thinner than conventional bars while the gauge remains constant. You jumped on that and disregarded every other statement I made about lo pro and narrow kerf being two entirely different things. Appreciate the clear explanation of how each achieves its similar results, but not sure where you think you’re correcting me. You're actually muddying the waters here for any layman by not being clear that both achieve similar narrow kerf cuts through different chain design, and not being clear that both have notably narrower teeth than conventional chain. My GB lo pro 36" bar is 4.37mm while my Rollomatic 42" is 5.67mm. My individual 3/8 lo pro teeth are 3.81mm where my 3/8 teeth are 4.24mm. I'm an engineer and an author so I appreciate precision language, but I also appreciate if you can't use language a layman understands, then explanations aren't very useful.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jun 30, 2022)

I think Kirk's probably got a huge headache trying to follow any of this lol. I thought about midway through the thread I'd spent more time on the thread than the initial question warranted, but the discussion ended up being very useful for me to finally get a clearer understanding of what "narrow kerf" .325 chain is exactly and what 3/8 lo pro chain is exactly. It can seem like we're nitpicking details with each other about describing things EXACTLY right, but when so many others are sloppy with descriptions and make people believe things that aren't at all true about lo pro or narrow kerf, it's worth getting the language exactly right. I have to admit, I hadn't given much thought to the obvious, that lo pro is called that because it's a lower chain height wise, and that explains to me part of why my milling cuts with it seem so unbelievably smooth. I'd chalked that up to the small teeth, which is part of it, but I also think often so much unevenness in a cut, so much extra kerf width, is a result of chain oscillation as teeth grab side to side. The higher and larger width teeth on a chain, the more it's going to experience side force pulling the chain outward as the leading edge of the teeth grab in the wood, enlarging the cut and sometimes scalloping the wood (especially if there's any slop in your rails). And that sucks up saw power too as you're cutting more wood than you need to.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 2, 2022)

Hey now. I hung in there and no resulting head aches or injuries. Prior to posting here, I read through a number of posts and articles from various sites referencing chain terminology, bars, drive sprockets, kerf etc. while many explained the higher level concepts and terminology. None connected the dots between bar, chain, sprocket and manufacturer key words (eg pixel) very well. Toss in kerf and low profile … forget it. This thread became a living education. Now if I can get ups to actually deliver my bar, I could report back. I’m guessing with a standard kerf, my husky 450R is going to be a bit underpowered. However, it will be a good starting point for me to try out milling. What I’ve learned through all this will make me a better consumer as well as a better user down the road. Can’t thank y’all enough.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 2, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Hey now. I hung in there and no resulting head aches or injuries.


Good to hear. Funny, I wondered why my latest Chainsawbars order hadn’t left the UK yet and saw a note I hadn’t seen noting I bought a couple of small saw lo pro sprockets (for the 455 Rancher) and wondering what I wanted them for. Part of me appreciated they want their customers to buy the right gear, part of me thought “I know what i want, my order is being delayed cause you’re second guessing me?” Lol. But for all my confidence I knew what I needed, I was wrong. Also realized looking up sprockets again for your saw I'm maybe being a bit of a moron. I said no 3/8" rim (or lo pro) sprocket setup was available for the 450 Rancher because all I see advertised is .325 rim sprockets on drums to fit it. But the 450 Rancher uses a standard small spline drum, Oregon 108215X, any 7 tooth small spline rim sprocket should fit it. That Oregon drum is always advertised as a .325 setup, but only because it is sold as a package with a .325 rim sprocket. I checked and people have put 3/8 rims on that drum on small Huskies so putting a 3/8 lo pro rim on it would be fine. Sorry to steer you wrong on that, it was dumb of me to not figure out the drum merely had to fit the saw and replace your spur sprocket drum.
The guy at Chainsawbars told me now I was ordering the wrong bar, I need their model in the K095 mount. I thought my Stihl 12 mm to 8mm adapter would take care of that, but those adapters only work for D mount tails (D009 Husky, D025 Stihl, D176 Echo) on bars it turns out - it's a Stihl 12mm to Echo (D176 mount) 8mm adapter I just assumed would be fine for the Rancher as they're 8mm mount studs too - but the K095 that the smaller Huskies use is a much slimmer tail on the bar which is incompatible - tensioner and oiler won't work. I didn't know they do make GB lo pro bars in a K095 mount. Not bad full price package for a 20" bar - $182 for a 20" solid lo pro bar, two lo pro ripping chains, and the lo pro rim sprocket. Free shipping, no tax. So if you ever switch to a rim sprocket setup by replacing your spur with a Oregon 108215x drum and .325 rim (which will still run all your .325 bars and chains) all you have to do is change out the rim sprocket to the 3/8" lo pro rim to put that lo pro setup on it.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 4, 2022)

Yah, I’d be more interested in that once I get a few logs under my belt. Also interested to know what level of improvement people are seeing with this class chainsaw. Eg, faster, smoother, runs cooler etc. Let me know how it all works out with your 455R.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 4, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Yah, I’d be more interested in that once I get a few logs under my belt. Also interested to know what level of improvement people are seeing with this class chainsaw. Eg, faster, smoother, runs cooler etc. Let me know how it all works out with your 455R.


Canceled my order and abandoning any milling with the 455R. Will put the 20" lo pro setup I have and small log mill back on the 64cc Makita when I have my 87cc Stihls rebuilt for the 36" lo pro setup. Screaming power to spare in both cases then with the respective lo pro setups. Had to tear my Stihls back down to the crankcases when I just figured out after months of work rebuilding them from the ground up (first total chainsaw rebuilds ever) and months more of not getting them to work right that I installed the crankshaft seals wrong on the flywheel sides of both saws. Ugh. Live and learn. Also one of the seals was never going to work right anyway because some aftermarket seals for those saws are sold without a metal rim on the seal and nothing holds them in place. Fun with 40 year old equipment there are no how-to videos on and the service manuals are useless ("install the seal").... Figured this out from a thread last year I just read on more or less same problem with a rebuild of same saw....


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> Canceled my order and abandoning any milling with the 455R. Will put the 20" lo pro setup I have and small log mill back on the 64cc Makita when I have my 87cc Stihls rebuilt for the 36" lo pro setup. Screaming power to spare in both cases then with the respective lo pro setups. Had to tear my Stihls back down to the crankcases when I just figured out after months of work rebuilding them from the ground up (first total chainsaw rebuilds ever) and months more of not getting them to work right that I installed the crankshaft seals wrong on the flywheel sides of both saws. Ugh. Live and learn. Also one of the seals was never going to work right anyway because some aftermarket seals for those saws are sold without a metal rim on the seal and nothing holds them in place. Fun with 40 year old equipment there are no how-to videos on and the service manuals are useless ("install the seal").... Figured this out from a thread last year I just read on more or less same problem with a rebuild of same saw....


Nice, I'm sure 87cc with a lo pro will indeed have some power to spare.

Just received my Oregon Power Cut solid bar along with a 78DL ripping chain to replace the factory 80DL X Cut chain. Fits perfectly on the 450 Rancher. Gotta do a little tune up on the carb as last time I was bucking some logs it was slightly 4 stroking while cutting. Funny the high side of the carb was turned out about 3.5 turns when I received the saw (brand new). At close to 10k elevation, that didn't cut it (pun intended). Took a few tries to dial in for this elevation.

Anyhow, will mount the 450R on the mill today and give it a shot ... I'm starting with a log that's in the ballpark of 14-16". About average for what I will want to mill if the saw cooperates.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Anyhow, will mount the 450R on the mill today and give it a shot ... I'm starting with a log that's in the ballpark of 14-16". About average for what I will want to mill if the saw cooperates.


Good luck! I see no problem milling that size, shouldn't tax the saw at all til the chain dulls. Dirty bark in Doug Fir is one thing that will dull chains quickly and bandsawers run into problems with hardened pitch pockets making the blades wander, but that's not a chainsaw mill issue. The only concern would be unhardened sap gumming up chains, but I've never heard much about that being a DF issue, more in pine. It it happens, soak the chain in solvent or much better yet, get a $60 ultrasonic cleaner off Amazon and clean your chains in it with Simple Green or Purple Power solution. For sharpening which is everyone's Achilles heel, the Pferd 2 in 1 sharpeners on Amazon for about $40 seem to be the best filing system anyone has come up with yet that people get consistent results with. Tree service guy I get logs from said he couldn't master filing chains til he got the Stihl version of the 2 in 1 (same as the Pferd for $20 more) and now his chains cut so much better. The reference angles on them are for 30 degree chain, but you can put 10 degree markings on them to help keep you aligned at the right angle when filing ripping chain - or just eyeball it and follow the existing angle of the teeth, that's what I do most of the time. Whole key to your system working well with the 450R is keeping those chains sharp as possible and it will mow right through 14-16" Doug Fir.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

OK .... Here is my early report using a Husky 450 Rancher with an Oregon Power Cut 20" Solid bar, along with a 78DL ripping chain on a Grainberg G777 mill.

Chainsaw was a little sluggish through the cut. Started out nice but eventually slowed and would stall if I didn't feather it. Likely could use better oil flow but wasn't bad overall (from a newbies perspective). Saw it no doubt under powered for the size log I was cutting (top cut was about 12-14"). The key here was to go slow and let the saw do the work. Altogether the cut took about 15-20m on a log that was just under 11ft long. Also, looks like I didn't get my brackets on my guide perfectly level to each other. I see a slight twist ... that or my starting cut need practice. OK ... off to mill a slab!!!


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> Good luck! I see no problem milling that size, shouldn't tax the saw at all til the chain dulls. Dirty bark in Doug Fir is one thing that will dull chains quickly and bandsawers run into problems with hardened pitch pockets making the blades wander, but that's not a chainsaw mill issue. The only concern would be unhardened sap gumming up chains, but I've never heard much about that being a DF issue, more in pine. It it happens, soak the chain in solvent or much better yet, get a $60 ultrasonic cleaner off Amazon and clean your chains in it with Simple Green or Purple Power solution. For sharpening which is everyone's Achilles heel, the Pferd 2 in 1 sharpeners on Amazon for about $40 seem to be the best filing system anyone has come up with yet that people get consistent results with. Tree service guy I get logs from said he couldn't master filing chains til he got the Stihl version of the 2 in 1 (same as the Pferd for $20 more) and now his chains cut so much better. The reference angles on them are for 30 degree chain, but you can put 10 degree markings on them to help keep you aligned at the right angle when filing ripping chain - or just eyeball it and follow the existing angle of the teeth, that's what I do most of the time. Whole key to your system working well with the 450R is keeping those chains sharp as possible and it will mow right through 14-16" Doug Fir.


I picked up a 2 & 1 Stihl for my Makita 36v ... works great. I've had no issue keeping it sharp and have stopped swapping chains for new ones (haha). For my Husky I picked up a knock off ... I've mostly read that thee files are tough to get out but aside from that are nearly as good as the Stihl. 

Thanks for the feedback George ... great advice.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> I picked up a 2 & 1 Stihl for my Makita 36v ... works great. I've had no issue keeping it sharp and have stopped swapping chains for new ones (haha). For my Husky I picked up a knock off ... I've mostly read that thee files are tough to get out but aside from that are nearly as good as the Stihl.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback George ... great advice.


I woulda bought the knock off for $20 figuring how much could they screw up copying that but for some reason the cheap ones are badly reviewed and everyone rates the Pferd's incredibly well. (Someone said Pferd makes the Stihl one? Not sure.) Was going to warn you on the small log mill - do not clamp too close to the powerhead or the blade will get pushed a little cockeyed and your slabs will be uneven. Getting rails dead level for a first cut is really hard too, so you often end up with twist that needs correcting. You're just using long rails on brackets? There's going to be some sag on those rails unless they're shimmed in the middle. Brand new chain is super grabby and will bog down a small saw easily so you have to let it feed itself as you learned and not push much at all. Even with that saw, not sure the first cut should have been more than ten minutes. I'm just used to uniformly hard wood, though, not softwood with rock hard knots which can slow you down quite a bit when you hit them. Make sure to put wedges in as you go to keep the cut open (just the thickness of the cut, don't drive the wedges in).


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> I woulda bought the knock off for $20 figuring how much could they screw up copying that but for some reason the cheap ones are badly reviewed and everyone rates the Pferd's incredibly well. (Someone said Pferd makes the Stihl one? Not sure.) Was going to warn you on the small log mill - do not clamp too close to the powerhead or the blade will get pushed a little cockeyed and your slabs will be uneven. Getting rails dead level for a first cut is really hard too, so you often end up with twist that needs correcting. What rail system are you using? Brand new chain is super grabby and will bog down a small saw easily so you have to let it feed itself as you learned and not push much at all. Even with that saw, not sure the cut should have been more than five to seven minutes. Make sure to put wedges in as you go to keep the cut open (just the thickness of the cut, don't drive the wedges in).


Yup, did use wedges ... much of it was me just taking my time figuring it out. Also, still working through the optimal tune of my saw. I'm ok with 4 stroke carbs but learning 2 stroke carbs on the fly. I've read that running slightly rich will give you more torque. Just trying to be careful not to run too lean. I'll pull the plug after another cut and see if I'm in an good place or not. Also, at this elevation im sure I'm running the equivalent of a 45cc.

Anyhow, a storm is rolling in so I'll likely get back to it tomorrow. Feel relatively accomplished with that top cut. Honestly figured it would turn out a lot choppier than it did. I've seen a few videos that really looked awful comparatively speaking.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Yup, did use wedges ... much of it was me just taking my time figuring it out. Also, still working through the optimal tune of my saw. I'm ok with 4 stroke carbs but learning 2 stroke carbs on the fly. I've read that running slightly rich will give you more torque. Just trying to be careful not to run too lean. I'll pull the plug after another cut and see if I'm in an good place or not. Also, at this elevation im sure I'm running the equivalent of a 45cc.
> 
> Anyhow, a storm is rolling in so I'll likely get back to it tomorrow. Feel relatively accomplished with that top cut. Honestly figured it would turn out a lot choppier than it did. I've seen a few videos that really looked awful comparatively speaking.


I was going to congratulate you on how butter smooth it was. As you say, most of what I see is worse. People push too much most of the time, that's what makes cuts so bad, grabbing and diving. The advantage to being patient and underpowered is you can't push too hard and cuts tend to be smoother. A light touch is everything. You're off to a good start - I adjusted my post to say probably no more than 10 minutes for that cut - five to seven is a bit ambitious for that saw at that altitude. Stick with slow and steady. I thought one to one and a quarter turns out was kinda standard for most high speed jets. By yours being 3.5 turns, do you mean 180 degree turns not 360 degree turns? Cause I can't see it running at 3.5 entire turns, would be incredibly rich. Even if that's 1.75 entire turns, that's still kinda rich.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> I was going to congratulate you on how butter smooth it was. As you say, most of what I see is worse. People push too much most of the time, that's what makes cuts so bad, grabbing and diving. The advantage to being patient and underpowered is you can't push too hard and cuts tend to be smoother. A light touch is everything. You're off to a good start - I adjusted my post to say probably no more than 10 minutes for that cut - five to seven is a bit ambitious for that saw at that altitude. Stick with slow and steady. I thought one to one and a quarter turns out was kinda standard for most high speed jets. By yours being 3.5 turns, do you mean 180 degree turns not 360 degree turns? Cause I can't see it running at 3.5 entire turns, would be incredibly rich. Even if that's 1.75 entire turns, that's still kinda rich.


3.5 full turns ... it barely ran when I got it. I did pick up an inductive tach so I was able to set the low idle nicely and it now starts and idles beautifully. And sorry ... it was the low side that was 3.5 turns not the high side. I'm sure it was just bad QC at the factory. Built on a Friday probably. 

10 mins per cut on an average sized log will be awesome. I believe it's possible.

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. Not sure I'd have resolved my bar / chain issues without this forum. 

Kirk


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> I woulda bought the knock off for $20 figuring how much could they screw up copying that but for some reason the cheap ones are badly reviewed and everyone rates the Pferd's incredibly well. (Someone said Pferd makes the Stihl one? Not sure.) Was going to warn you on the small log mill - do not clamp too close to the powerhead or the blade will get pushed a little cockeyed and your slabs will be uneven. Getting rails dead level for a first cut is really hard too, so you often end up with twist that needs correcting. You're just using long rails on brackets? There's going to be some sag on those rails unless they're shimmed in the middle. Brand new chain is super grabby and will bog down a small saw easily so you have to let it feed itself as you learned and not push much at all. Even with that saw, not sure the first cut should have been more than ten minutes. I'm just used to uniformly hard wood, though, not softwood with rock hard knots which can slow you down quite a bit when you hit them. Make sure to put wedges in as you go to keep the cut open (just the thickness of the cut, don't drive the wedges in).


Right, using brackets with pretty heavy duty rails. Only 1-3/4 x 1-3/4 but pretty heavy gauge. At 11ft I have to lean into them to get much flex.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> 3.5 full turns ... it barely ran when I got it. I did pick up an inductive tach so I was able to set the low idle nicely and it now starts and idles beautifully. And sorry ... it was the low side that was 3.5 turns not the high side. I'm sure it was just bad QC at the factory. Built on a Friday probably.


I've never tried to tune my Ranchers well, if they ran I was fine because they've been the occasional use saw. But one I put a cheap new carb on is way off and you talking about this made me get around to ordering a kit w one of those splined jet adjusters so I can adjust them easily and get them tuned right. Funny how much I've worked on some of my saws (the bottomless pit of the 87cc Stihls) and others I haven't done even the most basic adjustments on lol.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> I've never tried to tune my Ranchers well, if they ran I was fine because they've been the occasional use saw. But one I put a cheap new carb on is way off and you talking about this made me get around to ordering a kit w one of those splined jet adjusters so I can adjust them easily and get them tuned right. Funny how much I've worked on some of my saws (the bottomless pit of the 87cc Stihls) and others I haven't done even the most basic adjustments on lol.


Most if not all of my lawn equipment has been pretty much pay and go with no issues. Then I go and buy a top name husky and it struggled to start. Had to wait for a spline tool before I could use it much. And where I’m at the big A***** takes about a week or longer to deliver. I’ve been working towards that first cut for the better part of 6 weeks


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Right, using brackets with pretty heavy duty rails. Only 1-3/4 x 1-3/4 but pretty heavy gauge. At 11ft I have to lean into them to get much flex.


Four sided rails, not open on one side? If 12 gauge, then yeah, those should be rock solid. I found 12 gauge 10' Unistrut (1 5/8 x 1 5/8) to have more flex than I expected (maybe an 1/8" over a 6' span if I lean on it) given how heavy duty it seemed, but it's semi open on one side and full of holes on another side. Ladders don't have much flex but all the light ones I've used are easy to twist. I have 10' Unistrut joined with threaded rod every foot and a half like a ladder that I just rigged up. I prefer to run on the rails every cut, not just the first cut, and with a rigid ladder-like long level setup I can keep checking for twist in the cut and shim to adjust. Before I assembled the new Unistrut setup, I tried just using the Unistrut as rails in bracket notches for the first cut like you're doing, and you can get everything leveled, but then screwing in the end brackets I would all too often end up pushing it a bit out of level again. All the endless leveling of that approach seems bothersome. I made up my 10" wide Unistrut setup because ladders are too wide to run on the surface of small log slabs. Using it every cut just makes starting and ending each cut so much more level, aside from correcting any twist. All that being said, I've started doing more cuts running on the slab face with the small log mill, because the lightness of the saw and mill setup with that makes it way easier to start and end a cut level than with a big heavy rig. And no time wasted resetting brackets.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

I spent a good chunk of time researching different methods. Didn’t like ladders for the reasons you mentioned. Plus I couldn’t find a 12ft plain Jane ladder that would work for me. If I had one laying around I likely would have used it. The rails that folks like Granberg and the Chinese sell looked way too flimsy and most required bracketing of sorts along the length of the log. 2x4’s were out of the question as they had too much flex at 8+ feet. 2x6’s seemed to tall in the notched brackets. The one piece of unistrut I tested at 8ft was like you said pretty flexible. I ended up getting square steel tubing from a metal supplier …. All 4 sides solid, I believe it was 12 gauge costing me $140. The brackets are a bit of a pain but in reality the wood will twist a bit as it dries (even with some weight) not to mention what you get from the big box stores. So, over 10ft length I can handle a slight … and I say slight twist. I will try dropping the rails back down at some point on a flat cut just to see what works better. Also, considering welding some cross members but my welder is in phoenix. However, a ladder made from the steel I’m using would be awesomeness if I can weld it flat (not a lot of flatness up in the Rockies). Long term it would be nice to have legs / jacks that hold the rails above the log and can be adjusted for each cut. However, that’s basically building an entire mill and defeats portability. That said, the cross members would likely be the next move as they would help eliminate twisting. Maybe I’ll seek out a welding shop. The should be able to weld it pretty darn flat.

Also, I’m currently looking to mill 10ft to shore up the 2x4s my shed builder used on my shed loft. After that I’m dropping down to 8ft length for most everything else. Seems like I have it all figured out … NOT!!!


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

Just laid one of the rails back on the log since there was a break in the rain and I was “board”. Looks like the weight of the saw resulted in 1/4” bow over the 10ft run. Not too bad. A shim in the center should eliminate that.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

You're well on the way - spent more time thinking it out than most. Building router sled setups for planing slabs I learned a lot about how anything but 12 gauge rectangular tubing had flex over a span. Even dug out the engineer in me and found a deflection calculator for different things - angle vs tubing, etc. Wood has always struck me as a nonstarter because wood warps - good luck getting 12' straight anything (2x4, 2x6) and keeping it straight. You're entirely right that nothing will be more bombproof than square/rectangular tubing with welded crossmembers. But same here, I don't have a large flat surface anywhere to weld on. (A woodworking friend when I complained about lack of level surfaces to true things on said "flat is just a myth" lol. Beginning to feel like that.) BobL on here overlaps 10' sticks Unistrut by about 3' when he wants to mill logs longer than 8'. That keeps you from having to have one giant rail system to do everything with. He uses cross members of 1/2" threaded rod like I'm using bolting it together. Using threaded rod also lets you change it from narrow rails to wide ones depending on the size log you're milling. I might switch to square tubing instead of Unistrut at some point and drill it every couple of feet to bolt it together in the same way. Unistrut is often sold mildly warped at Lowes or Home Depot which makes it harder to create something straight. Heavy tubing is almost never warped. Need to go to the local industrial metal recycling yard, they've had so much random product there, used to get flat bar, angle, and tubing for 30 cents a pound, but a really random selection and a lot of it insanely overkill heavy (got a bunch of sticks of 4" x 5/8" flat bar there for example). I've got a big 20" drill press I can drill 1/2" holes in tubing all day long with.
I've seen a lot of people on the FB milling group proclaim their ladder/unistrut/whatever is rock solid, but hardly any are milling for their own woodworking use so don't care about precision or just say who cares if it's off, that's what their router planer sled is for. At some point I got tired of giving myself an extra 1/2" or even an inch of wood in every slab to waste correcting it later (with a lot more work) and thought, I want my wood milled as true and smooth as I can get to start, strap the hell out of it so it doesn't move, and I'll save myself a lot of wasted wood and wasted time.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 6, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Just laid one of the rails back on the log since there was a break in the rain and I was “board”. Looks like the weight of the saw resulted in 1/4” bow over the 10ft run. Not too bad. A shim in the center should eliminate that.


Yup, one shim and you'll be good. Probably have to go to 2x3 12 gauge tubing to have zero flex over a 10' span. Or just cross members which would take all the flex out of your rails. Most people live with that amount of bow in their slabs, but for precision woodworking that's a 1/4" that has to be taken out of each side to level the board, and suddenly there's a 1/2" of wood wasted. For timber framing however that kind of bow really doesn't matter. I've always wanted to invent some kind of cheap steam bending press to flatten out warped wood again lol so I don't waste so much planing it. Sometimes if I catch it before it's dried too much I'll put 100-150 lbs of cast stone in the middle of a slab with the ends on blocks to try to reverse the bow.


----------



## J D (Jul 6, 2022)

I picked up some 8' lengths of reasonably heavy extruded aluminum angle (about 2.5" x 3.5") from the local scrap metal yard. Screwed them to a 10" wide piece of ¾" ply board & find that more than adequate for the shorter stuff I mill.
Longer cuts I have a 20' steel C-beam as used for steel shed framing. I'd be guessing that's about 3" x 10"


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

J D said:


> I picked up some 8' lengths of reasonably heavy extruded aluminum angle (about 2.5" x 3.5") from the local scrap metal yard. Screwed them to a 10" wide piece of ¾" ply board & find that more than adequate for the shorter stuff I mill.
> Longer cuts I have a 20' steel C-beam as used for steel shed framing. I'd be guessing that's about 3" x 10"


Hah … when the guide rails require a fork lift  I did consider aluminum angle wrapped 2x4s but figured the 2x4s would warp and bend the angle. Plywood on edge is likely much better.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 6, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> BobL on here overlaps 10' sticks Unistrut by about 3' when he wants to mill logs longer than 8'. That keeps you from having to have one giant rail system to do everything with. He uses cross members of 1/2" threaded rod like I'm using bolting it together. Using threaded rod also lets you change it from narrow rails to wide ones depending on the size log you're milling.


Didn’t consider all thread for cross members. Might be a good way to go. I like the adjustability aspect of it.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 9, 2022)

Not sure if anyone is interested in the performance of this setup. This thread, like all threads, has digressed a bit 

The 450 Rancher from the factory uses a narrow kerf bar and chain. To get a solid bar (required by the G777 mill) on this thing I had to jump to a standard kurf Oregon bar with a standard kurf ripping chain.

I’m down to around 15 min after milling a few slabs. The slabs are right at 11ft long and around 16” at their widest. The saw does struggle a bit through these cuts. The standard kerf is no doubt adding to the challenge. While I’m not stalling the saw I am having to feather the throttle. Still could be a tuning issue up here at close to 10k elevation. I’m slowly dialing in the carb; learning what works best along the way. I’m also going through 2/3-3/4 of a tank of fuel per cut and about 1/3 bar oil. Seems normal for bucking but would like to see more bar oil consumed.

The bar shows no sign of over hearing and the chain is surprisingly remaining sharp after 5 cuts. In my original post I talked about mostly running dug fur. However, the first log I grabbed was a pine; ponderosa I believe. 

The sawdust is coming out slightly above powdery. I can see it is some what course. I’m only getting shreds when hitting a know that runs parallel to the chains. Then I get inch or so long shreds. 

Slabs are coming out pretty smooth even though I stop And start throughout the cut. The slow cut seems to attribute to this.

All the milling I have witnessed others do, I see them full throttle through the entire cut. I‘m not able to do that for some reason. If I go full throttle the chain wants to stall (not the engine). But the engine does bog down a bit. Still could be tuning but more a limitation of a 50cc narrow kerf saw imho. If anything I’d saw I’m still running lean. 

Overall happy with this setup as a newbie miller. I will be keeping an eye out for a used ~70-90cc name brand or a too good to pass up prime day deal.

Next for me is getting a drying “stand” setup before I cut too much. Being in the forest, I’ll likely go with cinder block spaced 2ft apart. Or I’ll mill up some 4x4s to lay down. The cinder block will allow me to deal with uneven ground And to cut through the 2-3” of forest mulch. I guess I also need some borax and a dedicated sprayer. Right now my slabs are sitting on a 8x8 snowmobile trailer which I don’t want to dedicate to this project long term 

Wow … this has been fun. Everyone should own a small mill … haha. I’ll give a few more photos in a day or so. As well I may get ahead of myself and cut some 2x6s out of some of the slabs. Until then ….

Enjoy!


----------



## J D (Jul 9, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> While I’m not stalling the saw I am having to feather the throttle. Still could be a tuning issue up here at close to 10k elevation. I’m slowly dialing in the carb; learning what works best along the way. I’m also going through 2/3-3/4 of a tank of fuel per cut and about 1/3 bar oil. Seems normal for bucking but would like to see more bar oil consumed.


Something is off with your tuning & I'd recommend sorting that ASAP to avoid damage.
Chainsaws are designed to run at full throttle & should be tuned accordingly as the transition between Lo & Hi isn't linear with such a basic carb.
There's plenty of tuning info online, Madsen's has some good generic instructions & Vintage Engine Repairs did a good tutorial a while back.
For milling you want to be tuned slightly rich on the Hi side as the extra fuel helps with cooling.
Bar oil output sounds minimal to me, even for x-cutting. I'd be making sure the lines & filter screen are clear. If that checks out I would consider fitting one of the adjustable oilers or modifying the one you have for a little more output


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 9, 2022)

I find my Makita 64cc does not oil the bar much on max, and I would guess the 450R even less. One of the drawbacks to trying to mill with small saws is you do need to get more oil to the bar than they tend to be designed for. I wasn't sure what was going on with the throttle feathering but think JD has a handle on that. One of my saws I was testing the other day was doing that due to being way out of tune.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 9, 2022)

J D said:


> Something is off with your tuning & I'd recommend sorting that ASAP to avoid damage.
> Chainsaws are designed to run at full throttle & should be tuned accordingly as the transition between Lo & Hi isn't linear with such a basic carb.
> There's plenty of tuning info online, Madsen's has some good generic instructions & Vintage Engine Repairs did a good tutorial a while back.
> For milling you want to be tuned slightly rich on the Hi side as the extra fuel helps with cooling.
> Bar oil output sounds minimal to me, even for x-cutting. I'd be making sure the lines & filter screen are clear. If that checks out I would consider fitting one of the adjustable oilers or modifying the one you have for a little more output


It's a bummer this saw wouldn't idle out of the box. Something was definitely screwy when I got it. When I originally "reset" the saw to factory 1-1/8 turns out, I threw a tach on it and had trouble getting the RPMs within factory specs without turning the high adjustment out quite a bit. That seemed odd for higher elevation so I turned it back to 1-1/8th. It idled, started and bucked great. On the mill, I've been slowly (1/16th turn) making it run richer as I'm listening to the saw through the cut. I'll throw the tach back on it and give it another shot to get within the factory specs. If I can't dial it in, we have a resident small engine mechanic I'll have look at it. It does make sense that im running a little lean. When I let off the throttle the RPMs die and slowly come back up (within a split second but noticeable). I suspect that's low fuel flow. I have read that it's best to tune to the richer side of the RPM curve. 

If I can get a consistent cut at full throttle, I'm sure ill be able to get through an 11ft'er in under 10 mins  

Thanks for the feedback JD.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 9, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> I find my Makita 64cc does not oil the bar much on max, and I would guess the 450R even less. One of the drawbacks to trying to mill with small saws is you do need to get more oil to the bar than they tend to be designed for. I wasn't sure what was going on with the throttle feathering but think JD has a handle on that. One of my saws I was testing the other day was doing that due to being way out of tune.


Insult to injury the Rancher 450 does not have an oil adjustment that I can find and it doesn't dynamically adjust based on RPM. Simply put its a constant rate oiler. Nice saw but I'm definitely seeing the shortcomings when it comes to milling.


----------



## J D (Jul 10, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Insult to injury the Rancher 450 does not have an oil adjustment that I can find and it doesn't dynamically adjust based on RPM. Simply put its a constant rate oiler. Nice saw but I'm definitely seeing the shortcomings when it comes to milling.


You can fit the adjustable oiler for a 35x/46x, you will need the worm drive clutch to go with it though.
Alternatively you can dismantle the oiler you have & sand the angle on the end of the drive spline to make it slightly greater (don't make it any shorter overall) & it will pump a little more.
The stock oiler should still empty about 2/3 or more of the oil tank to a tank of fuel


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 10, 2022)

J D said:


> You can fit the adjustable oiler for a 35x/46x, you will need the worm drive clutch to go with it though.
> Alternatively you can dismantle the oiler you have & sand the angle on the end of the drive spline to make it slightly greater (don't make it any shorter overall) & it will pump a little more.
> The stock oiler should still empty about 2/3 or more of the oil tank to a tank of fuel


Which would be better .... replacing the oiler / clutch or going with an external oiler rig? I'm guessing that even by upgrading the chainsaw oiler, the results will be a slight increase whereas using an external oiler would allow for significant increase in oil if desired. Currently the bar is staying nice and cool. But I'm also not cranking on it when milling.


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 10, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Which would be better .... replacing the oiler / clutch or going with an external oiler rig? I'm guessing that even by upgrading the chainsaw oiler, the results will be a slight increase whereas using an external oiler would allow for significant increase in oil if desired. Currently the bar is staying nice and cool. But I'm also not cranking on it when milling.


Only problem with the small log mill is there's no outside post to hang an external oiler on. I'd save an external oiler for a regular Alaskan mill. The adjustable oiler will likely give you some more, but it's a matter of how much you view the 450R as a temporary milling solution and how much you want to spend on it or labor on it to get a bit more oil on a 20" bar. This whole thread on converting it to a 455 oiler sounds kinda like a pain in the ass that I can't see undertaking unless you were dedicated to being a one saw for all occasions person, which you don't plan to be. https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/husky-450-adjustable-oiler-conversion.305277/


----------



## George Hurchalla (Jul 13, 2022)

kirkdb said:


> Didn’t consider all thread for cross members. Might be a good way to go. I like the adjustability aspect of it.


Too hot to mill here, 105+ every day lately, so just moving giant oak slabs around from front yard to back yard so no one calls code enforcement on me lol. (I have incredibly tolerant neighbors for living in the city though, they like what I do.) I have been finishing up some edge pieces that had a few boards left in them with the lo pro setup, and was frustrated at the results I was getting with my Unistrut ladder. One rail seemed straight, the other just a bit off of straight, but was getting awful warped results. On closer look, the Unistrut was twisted more than I thought. All thread crossmembers didn't fix at all as I thought they had. Waste of $75 in Unistrut. Typical of buying anything at big box stores, wood or steel, it's usually warped. Definitely going the 2x2 square tubing route now. Can use the all thread members on it and repurpose the Unistrut for something that doesn't require it to be dead straight.


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 15, 2022)

George Hurchalla said:


> Too hot to mill here, 105+ every day lately, so just moving giant oak slabs around from front yard to back yard so no one calls code enforcement on me lol. (I have incredibly tolerant neighbors for living in the city though, they like what I do.) I have been finishing up some edge pieces that had a few boards left in them with the lo pro setup, and was frustrated at the results I was getting with my Unistrut ladder. One rail seemed straight, the other just a bit off of straight, but was getting awful warped results. On closer look, the Unistrut was twisted more than I thought. All thread crossmembers didn't fix at all as I thought they had. Waste of $75 in Unistrut. Typical of buying anything at big box stores, wood or steel, it's usually warped. Definitely going the 2x2 square tubing route now. Can use the all thread members on it and repurpose the Unistrut for something that doesn't require it to be dead straight.


Talking to a few guys up here, when we get hot days (82f @ 10k ft elevation) they have seen their gas start to boil. Yikes … something else to worry about … lol


----------



## kirkdb (Jul 15, 2022)

For those following or interested, the husky 450 is doing alright and if you were to only mill 3-4 logs per year it might be perfect with the standard kerf bar and chain. I did tune the saw with a tach and still had issues with the saw wanting to bog down some. All said, I will be getting my neotec / husky 372xp clone today. I went with a 20” 3/8 050 bar and chain. 20” because that’s what my mill supports and 050 to keep the cuts as narrow as possible. Will report back on that. i Received a $200 credit with A***** and got the entire setup saw, bar and two ripping chains for $220 After the credit. Couldn’t pass that up.


----------

