# Multi phase logging taking its toll.



## Westboastfaller (May 7, 2016)

...it Saturday nights discussion.

It's all got to be done at once now a days. The congestion of all trades going off at once has been the blame for increased deaths in resent years.
I think it's Scarry.
Below is an article from last summer; after four Fallers were killed in July that I past copied. 

Your thoughts?

"One of the factors that workers say is creating unsafe working conditions is multi-phase logging, where fallers, road-builders, logging equipment and trucks are often operating simultaneously on a single cutblock.

Multi-phase logging has become a common practice on the coast as a way of reducing the high cost of log inventories. The time between the different phases of logging, from fallers cutting the timber to road building and yarding the logs out to trucks, has been gradually compressed to within three months, squeezing workers closer together.

Vandort said he has worked on jobs where fallers were working alongside as many as seven pieces of heavy equipment.

The practice provides companies with a quicker response time to market changes, reduces financing costs and reduces the cost of carrying inventory. But it has also led to a new, deadly term being added to the coast logger’s lexicon: phase logging congestion.

Forest safety ombudsman Roger Harris said phase congestion has raised the risk of death and injury for forest workers.

“It’s not intuitive that if you do multi-phase logging that you are unsafe,” he said. “But there’s no doubt it certainly makes it a much more complex workplace that requires significantly more communication to make sure you don’t have a problem.”

WorkSafeBC recognizes phase congestion as one of several factors requiring greater industry attention, said Al Johnson, WorkSafeBC’s vice-president of prevention services.

“Now that it’s recognized, it needs to be managed. Our expectation is, first of all, employers are aware of it and are managing it.”

Johnson, who called the August 6 meeting, said other issues, from the overall logging culture, to workers’ concerns about repercussions for refusing to do unsafe work and a renewed effort toward safety education were also discussed.

“We are worried. We know they are worried about it as well,” he said, referring to industry leaders. “The recent cluster of four worker deaths reminds us how hazardous this work is. We need to do everything we can to prevent this from continuing and to prevent deaths from occurring.”

Johnson also said concerns have been raised that safe practices put into writing at the corporate level are not being transmitted to the job site.

“Supervisors need to not only pay lip service to the processes that are in place and subscribed to, but make sure that those processes are actually happening in the field,” he said.

Despite commitments by major licensees, Vandort said on an active cutblock, congestion can result in regulations being overlooked – like a two-tree-length distance between workers or safe distances between workers and machines.

He added that cutblocks are getting smaller and the ground is getting steeper.

With more activity in a smaller space, congestion is a problem everyone has to deal with. There are good examples of properly managed sites, he said, but they require constant monitoring, assessing and communicating with all phases of workers in the block.

“We are all stuck in the same boat here. It’s a universal problem. It’s not just a faller’s problem. It’s not just a road builder’s problem, a logger’s problem or a truck driver’s problem. It’s the nature of the beast these days in the industry. We want to get that wood out and to market as fast as possible without spending any more money.”

_Next week: Faller _Jeremy Tanaka_ died July 24 on a hillside at Holberg Inlet in a tragedy that safety advocates say was a foreseeable outcome when people and heavy logging machines are squeezed too tightly together into one forest cutblock._ •


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## Babaganoosh (May 8, 2016)

Not a logger but I operate a forklift and a ride on double electric pallet jack in receiving and occasionally on the floor of a warehouse. 

They continually shrink our receiving department area in order to get more floor space. Our machines move around 7 and 8 mph. We have foot traffic coming in and out of the receiving door because all employees and vendors come thru that door until 10 am. People constantly walk thru the area in order to shortcut to the bathroom and cardboard baler. 

It's just a matter of time before something bad happens . It's not a matter of will it? It's a matter of when? Matter of fact a guy was driving a double stack of pallets that are 17 high and they dumped going onto the receiving dock. That's around 12 feet high. A girl had to run out of the way or be hit. She got lucky .

Multi phase logging sounds just like my receiving dock. Too many people and machine traffic in too small an area. All in the name of money.


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## ropensaddle (May 8, 2016)

As well as any other corporate led work the leadership is mostly college boys who are blind to the actual work place. College education is dangerous I have witnessed much of it over the years and feel experience worth much more than a degree but unfortunately it is not the case anymore.

Ceo's worry only about profit for shareholders and themselves, they put a cattle prod up your ass then expect safe hahaha yeah right


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## catbuster (May 8, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> As well as any other corporate led work the leadership is mostly college boys who are blind to the actual work place. College education is dangerous I have witnessed much of it over the years and feel experience worth much more than a degree but unfortunately it is not the case anymore.



I think saying college education is dangerous is ridiculous. Profit margins being king is what's dangerous. And this is coming from a college educated business owner who has both experience and an engineering degree.

But I think putting guys working too close together like in multi-phase logging is unsafe. My guys are spread out about a day's work apart from each other. The job itself has inherent hazards, there's no point in amplifying them-especially for another dollar per foot.

I do, however, think that if multi-phase logging becomes the norm, then the projects orders will need to change. Just doing road building before falling could help, in theory, a lot by keeping heavy equipment away from fallers for longer.


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## Westboastfaller (May 8, 2016)

Babaganoosh said:


> Not a logger but I operate a forklift and a ride on double electric pallet jack in receiving and occasionally on the floor of a warehouse.
> 
> They continually shrink our receiving department area in order to get more floor space. Our machines move around 7 and 8 mph. We have foot traffic coming in and out of the receiving door because all employees and vendors come thru that door until 10 am. People constantly walk thru the area in order to shortcut to the bathroom and cardboard baler.
> 
> ...


Yes absolutely we can apply this to any congested work place/ place where man meets Machine.
A very good friend of mine's Dad was killed leaving shift at the mill.
He was run over by a very large forklift right in front of everyone else that was leaving for their cars.
That was my first job at that mill as well, that's were my Dad worked. Very sad. I had a good friend get his leg run over by a 988 loader. Another friend watched a co-worker's head get run over by a loader right in front of him. Not pretty to see. You are right when you say it's not IF its WHEN someone gets it. I don't mind working with an excavator assisting me, that can be nice but the other week they wanted me to rush down and fall some more trees on the top of the access road that parellals the development block. The other excavator was on the block side with only 5ft of trees between us. I chased him off that edge for the bit while I was there.
That's how the Faller was killed on the bottom of that article I posted. The operator was in there to make it safer for the Fallers and ended up uprooting a Hemlock tree and the Faller below didn't even know it was coming. In a couple days I'll be flying in on float to fall for road right of way so the blasting crew can make a road behind us into our Wood. That should be good. I would say four of us leapfrogging should make it pretty peaceful in no man's land.


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## ropensaddle (May 8, 2016)

catbuster said:


> I think saying college education is dangerous is ridiculous. Profit margins being king is what's dangerous. And this is coming from a college educated business owner who has both experience and an engineering degree.
> 
> But I think putting guys working too close together like in multi-phase logging is unsafe. My guys are spread out about a day's work apart from each other. The job itself has inherent hazards, there's no point in amplifying them-especially for another dollar per foot.
> 
> I do, however, think that if multi-phase logging becomes the norm, then the projects orders will need to change. Just doing road building before falling could help, in theory, a lot by keeping heavy equipment away from fallers for longer.


Hiring college boys to lead companies in dangerous occupations is dangerous whether you understand my point or not. College boys have flat ruined this country whether u see it or not; ie DC politicians,bankers etc. Education is over rated in many occupations whether you understand me or not. There was a time a person entered the field learned on the job and worked hard over the years and climbed the ladder. Now in corporate America we have snotty nosed brats calling the shots who never worked an honest day in their entire life. I also understand not all college grads are that way but I have seen corporate business heads, bean counters etc. Ceo's worship the almighty dollar and only care about kissin the shareholders ass, whilst they poke cattle prods in the true producers, "the American labor force" working with out dated equipment much of the time to save a shareholder monies.


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## catbuster (May 8, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> Hiring college boys to lead companies in dangerous occupations is dangerous whether you understand my point or not. College boys have flat ruined this country whether u see it or not; ie DC politicians,bankers etc. Education is over rated in many occupations whether you understand me or not. There was a time a person entered the field learned on the job and worked hard over the years and climbed the ladder. Now in corporate America we have snotty nosed brats calling the shots who never worked an honest day in their entire life. I also understand not all college grads are that way but I have seen corporate business heads, bean counters etc. Ceo's worship the almighty dollar and only care about kissin the shareholders ass, whilst they poke cattle prods in the true producers, "the American labor force" working with out dated equipment much of the time to save a shareholder monies.



Welp, sorry the world we live in doesn't work perfectly the way you want to. No, not every job requires a college education, but saying that education has ruined the United States is complete and utter horseshit. Now I'm going a bit off topic with a history and economics lesson for you-something I can understand because of my college education.

The reason behind the real issue here in the US is not education. It's deregulation. Fifty years ago there is no singular ****ing way multiphase logging takes place. Period. Safety standards were enforced. You can thank Reagan and the neocons for the wave of dereg of industry. It's a fact. Overembracing unfettered capitolism is the reason we have these issues, not the fact the boys with business degrees operate businesses. That's what they're trained to do. Safety deregulation of industries allows them to find ways to cut corners and make more money. That's their objective, which comes from a greedy sonofabitch CEO. And most guys with office jobs have to perform, just like we do, to keep their jobs.


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## 2dogs (May 9, 2016)

Heavy equipment and foot traffic in the same area is a recipe for disaster. Things happen very quickly and violently when the big yellow stuff arrives on scene. This is just the opposite when a hand falling crew is working.

Catbuster, Ronaldus Maximus was indeed the leader of the free world but he was not the president of Canada.


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## olyman (May 9, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> Hiring college boys to lead companies in dangerous occupations is dangerous whether you understand my point or not. College boys have flat ruined this country whether u see it or not; ie DC politicians,bankers etc. Education is over rated in many occupations whether you understand me or not. There was a time a person entered the field learned on the job and worked hard over the years and climbed the ladder. Now in corporate America we have snotty nosed brats calling the shots who never worked an honest day in their entire life. I also understand not all college grads are that way but I have seen corporate business heads, bean counters etc. Ceo's worship the almighty dollar and only care about kissin the shareholders ass, whilst they poke cattle prods in the true producers, "the American labor force" working with out dated equipment much of the time to save a shareholder monies.


how come is it,,when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs,,only the ones hit howl..seems you've made some howl..........................tooo bad...


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## Gologit (May 9, 2016)

olyman said:


> how come is it,,when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs,,only the ones hit howl..seems you've made some howl..........................tooo bad...



Hi Oly! How are those anger management classes working out for you?


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## Westboastfaller (May 9, 2016)

@ropensaddle I have to agree with this for sure. At least thats how it once was. I grew up the same in Canada with a working class father, a Tile setter from 14 years old as well kicking carpets. By 40 yrs old the knees had had enough and he took the mill job. I remember working their as my first job when I was 18. Even the young people like me felt the resentment towards someone that looked like they never had dirt behind there fingernails. They looked out of place. That was 1986 an that's when I remember seeing the change. I know you are not against a man that gets an education but often back then it did made a terrible fit. They would walk into a working man's world with no street or social savvy. Awkward!
It takes more than a book education as that's just one component.

I remember writing my test for the wildlife & wildland fire module Danger Tree Assessor course (DTA)
So we are finishing up the two day course and start the written test at 11:30 then have lunch and were to meet back for 1:00 PM to go to the bush to assess five trees that the instructor have picked out ahead of time. The three university guys that were together had their writen done in about 25 min. It took my dump azz right to 1:00 PM both times I did the four year ticket.
They actually had to wait for me a couple of minutes. Im sure they were saying "look at that dummy.
In the field we had arrows from our first tree so we could find the remaining four. On the practical test it was the other way around. They were all looking up scrachting there head on the first tree and I was like...we'll catch you boys on the flip side. lol
Certainly you have to put the people where they best serve the company. obviously in this case these guys have bigger plans for themselves shortly down the road.
The changes we saw in the work force is now 30 year old news. I believe for a while here anyway, a green young guy fresh out of University could jump in the wheel house and push buttons that could effect safe work practices. The world has caught up now and there is far better choices today than that Awkward 22 yrs old that had no competition.

The saftey systems are law here and there is to much liability to disregard any of that.
Everyone has someone to answer to. Every company is responsable for saftey and saftey is everyones responsibility. Every person in the work force has the right to know, the right to partisapate, and the right to refuse. Canada has Bill C-45 amendment that was past in 2004 and that changed our thoughts and our actions. It was brought on 12 years after a Methane explosion at Westray Mines in Nova Scotia. 26 miner's were killed. Instead of the owners complying to make it a 'safe' worksite, they had a loophole to contract it out so the responsibility would fall on the prime contractor and so on down the chain. Bill C-45 changed all that. $hit goes up hill and the government takes you to Court. They have it cornered with Tickets, quizzes, orientations, on the job training and signatures to say you are trained and fully understand.
It can only be the new workers fault.... unless..other mistakes are made above. If I make a bad judgement and he got hurt then I could go to jail. We get threatened all the time.

I was just reading about Jeremy Tanaka's death in Holberg.
Much to my surprise, A machine that isn't directly working with a Faller (machine assist) dose NOT have to be two tree lengths or 60 meters (whichever is greater); away. Described above is a Falling Zone which the Faller is in charge of. There's my point (three pages later) it's a grey area because they aren't doing anything wrong in the eyes of WCB. So a zone that we are in charge of we have to yeild operations (stand down) or flat out exercise our right to refuse unsafe work OR in Jeremy's case. Get killed and be 'faulted'


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## bigbarf48 (May 9, 2016)

To say that this is the fault of "college boys" is absurd. To say that "college boys" are ruining the country is even more absurd. This seems like a case of envy by those who lack an education. Like it or not, those who have degrees often hold positions where they call the shots. If more money can be made by consolidating operations and decreasing entries/passes over a tract, the shot will be called. This has been occurring for decades. It IS possible to do this kind of work safely, but blaming accidents on superiors instead of incompetent or aloof operators and workers is foolish


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## olyman (May 10, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> To say that this is the fault of "college boys" is absurd. To say that "college boys" are ruining the country is even more absurd. This seems like a case of envy by those who lack an education. Like it or not, those who have degrees often hold positions where they call the shots. If more money can be made by consolidating operations and decreasing entries/passes over a tract, the shot will be called. This has been occurring for decades. It IS possible to do this kind of work safely, but blaming accidents on superiors instead of incompetent or aloof operators and workers is foolish


yep, like ropen said, another case of overedumacaation spewing off......arrogant and proud...


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## bigbarf48 (May 10, 2016)

olyman said:


> yep, like ropen said, another case of overedumacaation spewing off......arrogant and proud...



Being uneducated is nothing to be proud of. Care to consider all of the technological and operational advances made just in the forest industry by "overedumacated" individuals? Vast improvements in silviculture, genetics, forest planning and harvest scheduling, mill and operational optimization, not to mention economic and financial analysis of management decisions and local markets. You are fooling yourself if you think college-educated individuals are all evil, arrogant, and useless


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## slowp (May 10, 2016)

It's always "somebody else's" fault, isn't it? Who forces YOU to work in unsafe conditions? As a "college girl" I've seen some terrible stuff done by guys (I don't know or care what their educational status was) who should know better. You are the final say in what is safe or not. Sometimes a Come To Jesus safety meeting is called for. I've done that even though I had no "authority" to do so. One says some choice words when hiding behind the biggest second growth tree while an ignorant shovel operator is tossing culls and longbutts off the landing to clear it. If one survives, one goes up and discusses this with the operator, not the internet folks, some of whom have dubious qualifications.

Hey Olybaby, this song is for you and all the education haters out there. YOU KNOW YOu could always GO back To Skool IF you Think them edumacated pepols have an advantage.


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## Westboastfaller (May 10, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> You are fooling yourself if you think college-educated individuals are all evil, arrogant, and useless


I think somebody is making mountains out of mole hills here. I don't think it was one side or the other. It's getting taken WAY out of context now. You are starting to paint the picture as its been said education is bad and nobody should have one. Go find a Physics Master with 15 years of general chainsaw experience and put him in one West Coast Falling quarter and I in another and see what happens. We'll give him a big set of nuts in that scenario too.


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## slowp (May 10, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> I think somebody is making mountains out of mole hills here. I don't think it was one side or the other. It's getting taken WAY out of context now. You are starting to paint the picture as its been said education is bad and nobody should have one. Go find a Physics Master with 15 years of general chainsaw experience and put him in one West Coast Falling quarter and I in another and see whats happens. We'll give him a big set of nuts in that scenario too.



I think I know one of those who would do quite well. Education is not a bad thing. I know of a guy who dropped out of high school and did quite well but he insists, and rightfully so, that his kids go further than high school--one chose a technical school. If one gets hurt on the job in the woods, one maybe has something to fall back on and does not have to be in disability poverty for the rest of their lives. 

By the way, unions used to work on safety problems. Unions are thought to be a bad thing by many of the people who could use them. You get what you wish for, sometimes.


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## olyman (May 10, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> Being uneducated is nothing to be proud of. Care to consider all of the technological and operational advances made just in the forest industry by "overedumacated" individuals? Vast improvements in silviculture, genetics, forest planning and harvest scheduling, mill and operational optimization, not to mention economic and financial analysis of management decisions and local markets. You are fooling yourself if you think college-educated individuals are all evil, arrogant, and useless


soooo, you know..exactly how far my edumaaaacation goes??? highly unlikely....but the tude represented by overeducated zealots,,is showing....


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## HuskStihl (May 10, 2016)

@bitzer would enjoy this thread.


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## ChoppyChoppy (May 10, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> To say that this is the fault of "college boys" is absurd. To say that "college boys" are ruining the country is even more absurd. This seems like a case of envy by those who lack an education. Like it or not, those who have degrees often hold positions where they call the shots. If more money can be made by consolidating operations and decreasing entries/passes over a tract, the shot will be called. This has been occurring for decades. It IS possible to do this kind of work safely, but blaming accidents on superiors instead of incompetent or aloof operators and workers is foolish




College on its own doesn't make a person smart anyhow. I know several people with 4 or 6 yr degrees that I have to wonder why they even bothered. They must have paid off the teachers or something.
We had one that was complaining about loosing several grand of meat when the power was out for 3 days. I asked him why he didn't put the freezer outside (middle of winter). Derp!


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## olyman (May 10, 2016)

so,,you got my post removed slowp.. must make you happy to be favored,no??? leave permanently why don't you???


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## slowp (May 10, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> College on its own doesn't make a person smart anyhow. I know several people with 4 or 6 yr degrees that I have to wonder why they even bothered. They must have paid off the teachers or something.
> We had one that was complaining about loosing several grand of meat when the power was out for 3 days. I asked him why he didn't put the freezer outside (middle of winter). Derp!



So, because of a lack of common sense in one person, you would discourage folks from furthering their education and encourage the blame game to continue? What about trade schools? What about tech training? Or are those no good either, because they might make people that think differently than you? Who might be more marketable because they've got that hated piece of paper. Like it or not, that paper matters to a lot of employers. 

Honestly, I don't understand how education can be blamed for unsafe work conditions. Oh, Oly, that is the TOPIC!. It sounds like there are too many people available for too few jobs so no negotiation can be take place because they can fire you and get somebody else who will toe the company line. You have no leverage, and your job prospects are limited. It's a game that has gone on for centuries, and unions have been vilified so are not there to go to bat for you. 

You're on your own. Good luck.


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## olyman (May 10, 2016)

slowp said:


> So, because of a lack of common sense in one person, you would discourage folks from furthering their education and encourage the blame game to continue? What about trade schools? What about tech training? Or are those no good either, because they might make people that think differently than you? Who might be more marketable because they've got that hated piece of paper. Like it or not, that paper matters to a lot of employers.
> 
> Honestly, I don't understand how education can be blamed for unsafe work conditions. Oh, Oly, that is the TOPIC!. It sounds like there are too many people available for too few jobs so no negotiation can be take place because they can fire you and get somebody else who will toe the company line. You have no leverage, and your job prospects are limited. It's a game that has gone on for centuries, and unions have been vilified so are not there to go to bat for you.
> 
> You're on your own. Good luck.


the topic is,,you didnt like my one post,,cried, and got it removed...I do believe,,you said you were leaving the site....


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## bitzer (May 10, 2016)

HuskStihl said:


> @bitzer would enjoy this thread.


Don't worry Jon I've been lurking... Pretty tired and beat up these days.


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## Westboastfaller (May 10, 2016)

olyman said:


> the topic is,,you didnt like my one post,,cried, and got it removed...I do believe,,you said you were leaving the site....


 No that's not the topic, but by all means please participate IN THE TOPIC


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## bitzer (May 10, 2016)

Most business owners are in the business of making money. That means finding ways to be more efficient. Lowering costs, raising production. Pretty simple really. Education level really has nothing to do with it other than maybe making a more informed decision. Sometimes you try new things and they work. Sometimes they don't. Unfortunately people paid with their lives. Not the first time and won't be the last. The feet on the ground really need to speak up if things are getting ugly before they go really bad. The owners don't make money if there is no production. That will get attention and change. 

For the record I'm a college boy. After way too many years at it I realized I didn't like the people or the scene in general. The woods kept calling my name. You don't have to be educated to be lazy and inexperienced.


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## olyman (May 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Most business owners are in the business of making money. That means finding ways to be more efficient. Lowering costs, raising production. Pretty simple really. Education level really has nothing to do with it other than maybe making a more informed decision. Sometimes you try new things and they work. Sometimes they don't. Unfortunately people paid with their lives. Not the first time and won't be the last. The feet on the ground really need to speak up if things are getting ugly before they go really bad. The owners don't make money if there is no production. That will get attention and change.
> 
> For the record I'm a college boy. After way too many years at it I realized I didn't like the people or the scene in general. The woods kept calling my name. You don't have to be educated to be lazy and inexperienced.


the truth...........


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## bigbarf48 (May 11, 2016)

The real reason stuff like this occurs is not money grubbing CEOs so much as companies desperately trying to remain profitable in the PNW. The fact is, the industry is struggling and dying in that region of the US. Environmental laws and extremism, coupled with harsh geography and pests are making the PNW a hard place to make money in the timber business. More and more companies are abandoning ship and moving production down south, with great success (just look at Interfor). Measures like these exist to try to make work profitable in a region seemingly hell-bent on driving out operations. They may go away, but when they do it will be because the companies have gone away as well.


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## Westboastfaller (May 21, 2016)

David Thompson Kennedy 'retired at the stump' Dec 7 2014



It was a hard day yesterday as I sat down with my Falling partner mid day and started asking about people from a company we both worked for.
David was our Bullbucker in Kwatsi bay, Kingcome Inlet.
He broke me in Heli Falling.
I worked with him for three weeks at that time. We also go back as for as the early '90's in the tree thinning days.
Thanks for that one cool trick. I use it every day on the job.

Thanks For everything David
You were one heck of a faller, safe Faller.
I remember your St Christopher's around your neck.
May your God have gone with you my friend.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok I should chime back in, education in itself is not a bad thing. However when it is a pre-requisite to leading corporations it can and does get ugly. For instance, I was a danger tree foreman for power 13 years after 10 previous years of routine maintenance. In that time frame, I witnessed college boys adversely effect safety. Ceo's only care about shareholders interest so they cut costs anyway they can. They in my experience do so by cutting expense and in my experience that meant getting inferior tooling, ropes,saddles,bucket trucks etc. They get the cheapest they can to get by! Then to stay current with work place safety they have us do weekly tailgate safety meetings and SIGN these. Why are signatures put on them, why of course to take responsibility off their shoulders right ? They create a court case prior accident thereby; laying a paper trail for fault finding and avenues for reducing their and shareholder responsibilities. They basically want your wife to live on beanie weinny's in the event of your untimely death!! Then comes in production requirements "ie cattle prod" I made my safety meeting about production requirements and fatigue levels it created and got reprimanded for it why ?
Because; I wanted my own paper trail and the ceo seen it could undermine his casualty loss for his share holders in the event of my untimely death! They even had the audacity to have write ups in the corporate news letter what they implemented on safety and btw they removed and shredded my safety meeting, even though; production requirements and fatigue are the number one offender of work place accidents. I could write a book on things I seen college boys do to limit loss to shareholder interests. They have no clue about field work and that you broke a safety rule because of a bald faced hornet nest why? Because; they have never experienced the field work they head up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## olyman (Jun 17, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok I should chime back in, education in itself is not a bad thing. However when it is a pre-requisite to leading corporations it can and does get ugly. For instance, I was a danger tree foreman for power 13 years after 10 previous years of routine maintenance. In that time frame, I witnessed college boys adversely effect safety. Ceo's only care about shareholders interest so they cut costs anyway they can. They in my experience do so by cutting expense and in my experience that meant getting inferior tooling, ropes,saddles,bucket trucks etc. They get the cheapest they can to get by! Then to stay current with work place safety they have us do weekly tailgate safety meetings and SIGN these. Why are signatures put on them, why of course to take responsibility off their shoulders right ? They create a court case prior accident thereby; laying a paper trail for fault finding and avenues for reducing their and shareholder responsibilities. They basically want your wife to live on beanie weinny's in the event of your untimely death!! Then comes in production requirements "ie cattle prod" I made my safety meeting about production requirements and fatigue levels it created and got reprimanded for it why ?
> Because; I wanted my own paper trail and the ceo seen it could undermine his casualty loss for his share holders in the event of my untimely death! They even had the audacity to have write ups in the corporate news letter what they implemented on safety and btw they removed and shredded my safety meeting, even though; production requirements and fatigue are the number one offender of work place accidents. I could write a book on things I seen college boys do to limit loss to shareholder interests. They have no clue about field work and that you broke a safety rule because of a bald faced hornet nest why? Because; they have never experienced the field work they head up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you just pissed off every overedumaaacated zero on this forum.....


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## 2dogs (Jun 17, 2016)

I attend in-service trainings, I study every internet article I can find, I read the literature included with new and old saws. In addition I listen to tailgate briefings and more often conduct them. I even read the...stuff posted here. And yep, some days I carry a clipboard, walk fast and look worried when other people beside me are running a saw or operating equipment.

But I guess all that is wrong? Dang I knew I should have left school once I learned sums. Well kinda learned them. Thanks Oly. I wish I was more like you buddy.


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## bigbarf48 (Jun 17, 2016)

olyman said:


> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you just pissed off every overedumaaacated zero on this forum.....



The envy is palpable here. Zeros because they are educated? Please


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## Gologit (Jun 17, 2016)

A college educated manager isn't always bad. I've worked for college graduates, foresters mostly, who had a good knowledge of the industry and made sound decisions based on their training and what was actually happening in the woods. 
I've also worked for bad managers, usually bean counters, but they didn't present us with any problems we couldn't overcome. They almost always shot themselves in the foot with their bad ideas and poor planning and wound up looking for other work.
People with little or no formal education often resent being told what to do and how to do it by managers they see as having less practical experience than themselves. They especially resent it when they realize that the manager is younger than they are and has already risen above them in station and responsibility. That's just a fact of life and they need to find a way to deal with it.


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## Gologit (Jun 17, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> The envy is palpable here. Zeros because they are educated? Please



It's just Oly doing what he does best. Sad case, actually. Don't take him seriously. He's basically harmless. Obnoxious, but harmless.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 17, 2016)

2dogs said:


> I attend in-service trainings, I study every internet article I can find, I read the literature included with new and old saws. In addition I listen to tailgate briefings and more often conduct them. I even read the...stuff posted here. And yep, some days I carry a clipboard, walk fast and look worried when other people beside me are running a saw or operating equipment.
> 
> But I guess all that is wrong? Dang I knew I should have left school once I learned sums. Well kinda learned them. Thanks Oly. I wish I was more like you buddy.


No; as I said learning all you can is admirable, what I'm saying is corporate leader positions over field type work should be left to those that performed that work for years. I have tried to learn what I can most of my life and will continue to do so. I just feel positions should be earned. Ask yourself this; if someone spent his entire life doing mechanic work say 25 years; would he be more fit to lead fellow mechanics than a school boy without practical experience?


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## bigbarf48 (Jun 17, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> No; as I said learning all you can is admirable, what I'm saying is corporate leader positions over field type work should be left to those that performed that work for years. I have tried to learn what I can most of my life and will continue to do so. I just feel positions should be earned. Ask yourself this; if someone spent his entire life doing mechanic work say 25 years; would he be more fit to lead fellow mechanics than a school boy without practical experience?



No, but a college graduate does not get handed a Ceo position straight out of school. They work in THEIR field, be it accounting, finance, marketing, logistics, engineering, etc. to get that position. A college graduate with a couple decades experience in corporate management is far more qualified to be the chief executive of a forest-products company than an employee that has been a forester or run a loader for 50 years. It's simply different paths and different attributes required to do a job. Focusing on the field and neglecting shareholders will ruin a company as quickly as the reverse will. Balance is the key.


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## Gologit (Jun 17, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> No; as I said learning all you can is admirable, what I'm saying is corporate leader positions over field type work should be left to those that performed that work for years. I have tried to learn what I can most of my life and will continue to do so. I just feel positions should be earned. Ask yourself this; if someone spent his entire life doing mechanic work say 25 years; would he be more fit to lead fellow mechanics than a school boy without practical experience?



A good worker, no matter how experienced, doesn't always make a good manager. Different sets of skills entirely.
Just because a worker can do the particular tasks required doesn't mean he can handle budgeting or human resources, or scheduling, or equipment aquisition, or communicate well with upper management, or the dozens of other management tasks that most workers, no matter how skilled, don't even know exist.
That being said, a manager without practical experience would do well to really listen to what the workers have to say.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 17, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> No, but a college graduate does not get handed a Ceo position straight out of school. They work in THEIR field, be it accounting, finance, marketing, logistics, engineering, etc. to get that position. A college graduate with a couple decades experience in corporate management is far more qualified to be the chief executive of a forest-products company than an employee that has been a forester or run a loader for 50 years. It's simply different paths and different attributes required to do a job. Focusing on the field and neglecting shareholders will ruin a company as quickly as the reverse will. Balance is the key.


You make a point, just as I do on field work type companies. Ceo's for the most part, I believe "skip ethics 101"
However; the true weight of dangerous education exists in DC and its lawyers. I however do understand its better than no law at all. The costs of this education is insurmountable in the over ten million word tax code and regs alone. Just remember it takes highly educated person to reward a bimbo for spilling hot coffee on her privates. If I were the judge, id say; you would have been mad if it were cold case closed. Just examples of education at work


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## catbuster (Jun 18, 2016)

Damn. Bob and Dog beat me to everything I wanted to say, and sure, you can discredit whatever I have to say because I'm a thirty year old college educated engineer whose company does more gross income in two months than you will in your life, with "just" 15 years practical experience . 

But, at the end of the day, we all pay our dues. Welcome to life. I can identify with everything that Bob, Barf and Dogs said at least once, and probably more than once in my career, and I can surely expand on each time if you'd like. It's obvious that you have significant disdain for those more educated than you. Sorry that we've upset you. But your ignorance precedes you. 

Well, crap. I resorted to ad hominem, albeit after quite a bit of Jameson's. I'll stop before I get really pissed off over something not worth being upset about and get myself banned.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 18, 2016)

catbuster said:


> Damn. Bob and Dog beat me to everything I wanted to say, and sure, you can discredit whatever I have to say because I'm a thirty year old college educated engineer whose company does more gross income in two months than you will in your life, with "just" 15 years practical experience .
> 
> But, at the end of the day, we all pay our dues. Welcome to life. I can identify with everything that Bob, Barf and Dogs said at least once, and probably more than once in my career, and I can surely expand on each time if you'd like. It's obvious that you have significant disdain for those more educated than you. Sorry that we've upset you. But your ignorance precedes you.
> 
> Well, crap. I resorted to ad hominem, albeit after quite a bit of Jameson's. I'll stop before I get really pissed off over something not worth being upset about and get myself banned.


You sir have not one clue as to my education. Isn't college teaching to not assume? I have scratches on my rear older than you son. You may have learned a few things but it sure does not show. Anyway; I have not disdain for education and if you had took the time to read and had an open mind you would of seen that.


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## bigbarf48 (Jun 18, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> You make a point, just as I do on field work type companies. Ceo's for the most part, I believe "skip ethics 101"
> However; the true weight of dangerous education exists in DC and its lawyers. I however do understand its better than no law at all. The costs of this education is insurmountable in the over ten million word tax code and regs alone. Just remember it takes highly educated person to reward a bimbo for spilling hot coffee on her privates. If I were the judge, id say; you would have been mad if it were cold case closed. Just examples of education at work



You may want to look more into that coffee case before touting it as frivolous. That bimbo was an elderly woman and that coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns in her legs and thighs. 

A world without education at work would not be one you'd want to live in, I promise you that


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## ropensaddle (Jun 18, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> You may want to look more into that coffee case before touting it as frivolous. That bimbo was an elderly woman and that coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns in her legs and thighs.
> 
> A world without education at work would not be one you'd want to live in, I promise you that


Everyone knows coffee is hot that's like saying i burnt my hand with a torch so i'm entitled? hog wash!! Yes well; education combined with common sense and education combined with wisdom is good when it's the case. All too much that is not the case and we get little snotty nosed brats. Btw much of our modern medicine was derived by the un educated American Indian and it seems they lived fine "just sayin"


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## bigbarf48 (Jun 18, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> Everyone knows coffee is hot that's like saying i burnt my hand with a torch so i'm entitled? hog wash!! Yes well; education combined with common sense and education combined with wisdom is good when it's the case. All too much that is not the case and we get little snotty nosed brats. Btw much of our modern medicine was derived by the un educated American Indian and it seems they lived fine "just sayin"



All coffee is not hot enough to cause third degree burns. Had she consumed it, she likely would have died


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## bitzer (Jun 18, 2016)

Theres idiots across the board. Educated or not in every walk of life. It's your job to steer clear of them in order to stay alive. It's America and we have choices of where and who we work with. Don't like it, move on. Don't like that, start your own. Great generalizations about educated and non educated is like judging a stand of timber by just a few trees. It doesnt work and doesn't pay and you can and will get burned. Like I said there are idiots everywhere. You can try to teach them and if they don't get it, move on. They're just wasting my money and time. Not just as a business owner to an idiot employee but as an employee with an idiot boss, they are wasting your money and time.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 18, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> All coffee is not hot enough to cause third degree burns. Had she consumed it, she likely would have died


Hahaha all torches aren't lit either. Fact is: she spilled it or she would not of been burnt. Everyone I know tests coffee before drinking,why? Because its hot but I highly doubt drinking a gulp of boiling water would kill you. I'm sure it would hurt. I have hurt myself on too hot scalped potatoes which is worse than coffee as; it takes longer to cool so burns all the way down. The point is; personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere right ?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 18, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Theres idiots across the board. Educated or not in every walk of life. It's your job to steer clear of them in order to stay alive. It's America and we have choices of where and who we work with. Don't like it, move on. Don't like that, start your own. Great generalizations about educated and non educated is like judging a stand of timber by just a few trees. It doesnt work and doesn't pay and you can and will get burned. Like I said there are idiots everywhere. You can try to teach them and if they don't get it, move on. They're just wasting my money and time. Not just as a business owner to an idiot employee but as an employee with an idiot boss, they are wasting your money and time.


True that I completely agree.


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## bigbarf48 (Jun 18, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> Hahaha all torches aren't lit either. Fact is: she spilled it or she would not of been burnt. Everyone I know tests coffee before drinking,why? Because its hot but I highly doubt drinking a gulp of boiling water would kill you. I'm sure it would hurt. I have hurt myself on too hot scalped potatoes which is worse than coffee as; it takes longer to cool so burns all the way down. The point is; personal responsibility has to come into play somewhere right ?



You're free to do some research on the case, I'm sure it would change your min. Then again, education is for fools isn't it?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 18, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> You're free to do some research on the case, I'm sure it would change your min. Then again, education is for fools isn't it?





bigbarf48 said:


> You're free to do some research on the case, I'm sure it would change your min. Then again, education is for fools isn't it?


No, but again; I never implied education was foolish either. I however have said it has become dangerous in many cases and I can back my views up. I also believe education without wisdom is wasted effort but then your opinion might vary!!


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## olyman (Jun 18, 2016)

2dogs said:


> I attend in-service trainings, I study every internet article I can find, I read the literature included with new and old saws. In addition I listen to tailgate briefings and more often conduct them. I even read the...stuff posted here. And yep, some days I carry a clipboard, walk fast and look worried when other people beside me are running a saw or operating equipment.
> 
> But I guess all that is wrong? Dang I knew I should have left school once I learned sums. Well kinda learned them. Thanks Oly. I wish I was more like you buddy.


I see your buddy golughis.....liked you..that alone says much,,esp when you and a few others,,like slapping ropensaddle... you appear to have wayyy too much edumacaation,,and want everyone to know it.......


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## olyman (Jun 18, 2016)

bigbarf48 said:


> You may want to look more into that coffee case before touting it as frivolous. That bimbo was an elderly woman and that coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns in her legs and thighs.
> 
> A world without education at work would not be one you'd want to live in, I promise you that


buwhahahhahhahahahahahaaaaaa...................................


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## 2dogs (Jun 18, 2016)

Oly I never intended to impugn ropensaddle. He seems like a good guy and I've liked him for years. Of course we don't or at least we won't agree on everything but that's just fine. Now you...


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## olyman (Jun 19, 2016)

2dogs said:


> Oly I never intended to impugn ropensaddle. He seems like a good guy and I've liked him for years. Of course we don't or at least we won't agree on everything but that's just fine. Now you...


doesnt mattter,,you did...and maybe if youd stop believing EVERYTHING golughis tells you,,it would help...along with pink saw mouth... impung...college. course if you admitted it,,that would mean you made a mistake,, and higher ups dont make those,, called pride...


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## ropensaddle (Jun 19, 2016)

2dogs said:


> Oly I never intended to impugn ropensaddle. He seems like a good guy and I've liked him for years. Of course we don't or at least we won't agree on everything but that's just fine. Now you...


2dogs you have not said anything to impugn me. We are just having discussion sharing views etc. You have enough wisdom to do so, I can't say that about some here!


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## ropensaddle (Jun 19, 2016)

olyman said:


> I see your buddy golughis.....liked you..that alone says much,,esp when you and a few others,,like slapping ropensaddle... you appear to have wayyy too much edumacaation,,and want everyone to know it.......


 I have not seen anyone slapping me or even showing evidence I'm wrong in my views. Remember education brought us the atom bomb care to elaborate how having those will help humanity?


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## olyman (Jun 19, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> I have not seen anyone slapping me or even showing evidence I'm wrong in my views. Remember education brought us the atom bomb care to elaborate how having those will help humanity?


got it.......


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## slowp (Jun 20, 2016)

On anti-intellectualism. And yes, I probably spelled it incorrectly. I believe it is also known as "dumbing down". The article was written after the Charleston killings.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2016)

slowp said:


> On anti-intellectualism. And yes, I probably spelled it incorrectly. I believe it is also known as "dumbing down". The article was written after the Charleston killings.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america


That would be better termed as mentally insane which also happens to very intelligent people. Ie the mad bomber


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2016)

Education has brought us many benefits, I'll agree on that. I however still can't be debunked on my views of it being dangerous in many instances.


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## Marshy (Jun 20, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> You make a point, just as I do on field work type companies. Ceo's for the most part, I believe "skip ethics 101"
> However; the true weight of dangerous education exists in DC and its lawyers. I however do understand its better than no law at all. The costs of this education is insurmountable in the over ten million word tax code and regs alone. *Just remember it takes highly educated person to reward a bimbo for spilling hot coffee on her privates.* If I were the judge, id say; you would have been mad if it were cold case closed. Just examples of education at work


This comment is clearly an example of uneducated ignorance in action. Its the same thing that gets people injured or killed in the field around equipment, out on the shop floor, or because they don't possess the skills/knowledge from on the job experience or through formal education. The fact is, its as much your responsibility as it is your employers to be safe and complacency will get you killed as fast as inexperience.

If this had been your elderly mother you might have felt different. I'd bet you'd eat those words you wrote.

On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant.Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of a 1989 Ford Probe owned by her grandson Chris, which did not have cup holders, and Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[9] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[ Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent. She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg). After the hospital stay, Liebeck needed care for 3 weeks, provided by her daughter.[12] Liebeck suffered permanent disfigurement after the incident and was partially disabled for two years.

Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses. Her past medical expenses were $10,500; her anticipated future medical expenses were approximately $2,500; and her daughter's[12] loss of income was approximately $5,000 for a total of approximately $18,000.[15] Instead, the company offered only $800. When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck retained Texas attorney Reed Morgan. Morgan filed suit in New Mexico District Court accusing McDonald's of "gross negligence" for selling coffee that was "unreasonably dangerous" and "defectively manufactured". McDonald's refused Morgan's offer to settle for $90,000. Morgan offered to settle for $300,000, and a mediator suggested $225,000 just before trial, but McDonald's refused these final pre-trial attempts to settle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2016)

Again; you have not a clue as to my education. Yes people get killed in accidents everyday or hurt but if I spilled it on myself then it would be MY fault. I'm not at all saying I can't sympathize but this silliness blaming someone else for our own carelessness costs everyone. I had a incident once when walmart first opened its doors they were stocking other side of isle and knocked boxes of stuff over on my head knocking me to the floor. I was shook up a bit but got to my feet a witness came running over and said you ok, I said yes; he kept repeating you sure while winking at me. Granted this was no fault of my own but the thought of suing never entered my mind, I was shaken but not broke and my thought process does not immediately go toward suing over some mishap.

My elderly mother has went to heaven but I assure you that she would never have sued for it either.


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## olyman (Jun 21, 2016)

ropensaddle said:


> Again; you have not a clue as to my education. Yes people get killed in accidents everyday or hurt but if I spilled it on myself then it would be MY fault. I'm not at all saying I can't sympathize but this silliness blaming someone else for our own carelessness costs everyone. I had a incident once when walmart first opened its doors they were stocking other side of isle and knocked boxes of stuff over on my head knocking me to the floor. I was shook up a bit but got to my feet a witness came running over and said you ok, I said yes; he kept repeating you sure while winking at me. Granted this was no fault of my own but the thought of suing never entered my mind, I was shaken but not broke and my thought process does not immediately go toward suing over some mishap.
> 
> My elderly mother has went to heaven but I assure you that she would never have sued for it either.


love facts you post..others dont like it so much.... that MCD incident still annoys me.......


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## Huskybill (May 17, 2019)

I was a lead tech in a r&d lab, I ran the floor for testing new ideas, mentored in new engineers, helped engineers develope new products, did life testing, did failure analysis (why things broke in the field). I’m a high school dropout. I been rebuilding machine tools since I was 18yo, built manual and CNC lathes from 36” to 144” chucks. You don’t need a sheeps skin to make it in life but I would of made more money if I had one. I’m retired now, (68yo) I don’t miss working but I loved my job till the outside people took over and really changed the way we do things. Sometimes college degrees can’t understand the work involved that it takes to get things done.
I did the impossible with nothing as my boss would say.

Btw, I was happier, healthier in the woods/forest in the firewood business than I was on any other job. The corporate world sucks. You have to play the game in the corporate world.


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