# Where is manual labor saw use still used in the logging industry?



## STIHL-KID (Jan 14, 2007)

I recently attended a job fair seminar featuring Caterpillar. During the presentation the speaker talked about the latest heavy equipment for logging. He specifically talked about the machines that grapple trees and saws them off. While speaking of this subject, he joked that the good ol' days of using a chainsaw to cut down trees is dead because of all the high technology machines available. I got thinking about this comment and wondered how true or untrue this really is? Are the heavy machines dominating the bulk of cutting trees? Is the chainsaw only used occasionally in logging operations? To me, it's almost kinda sad to see manual labor with chainsaws in the logging industry disappear. I also realize that phasing-out labor intensive, back-breaking work is beneficial to the workers and overall costs associated. I would certainly like to hear what the true modern story is for chainsaw VS. heavy equipment machine.


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## Kiwilogger (Jan 14, 2007)

Only in easy going country. Harvesters can't do the steep stuff. 

Next month when I get up to broadband speed again (dropped down because I exceeded my download cap) I'll load up some video I have of a harvester at work wher I was over xmas.

Chainsaws will always be needed to fell trees.


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## fishhuntcutwood (Jan 14, 2007)

Kiwi is right, you'll always need some dude with a saw somewhere. Like here where I live. There's just no way to get a harvester (the grapple machines) into the places you can get a timber faller on his own two feet. It's all about terrain and timber size. If you're in a stand of good second growth fir, those trees are going to be too tall and too large (dbh) for a mechanical harvester to even attempt. On flat Eastern or European ground with stands of more managable pine, the harvestor shine and can outcut a hand faller by a long shot.

Jeff


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## Gologit (Jan 14, 2007)

In our part of the country theres still a lot of saw work. Mechanical falling is used wherever possible because of the high production rates but on steep ground or big timber its still a hand-falling show. One place where mechanization has really taken over is on the landing. Its rare to see a knot bumper anymore on a cat side. A stroke delimber or dangle-head can do the work of several men but they're not much fun at lunch time...no yarns to tell or sandwiches to swap.


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## skip (Jan 14, 2007)

There are none in this part of WV and _MAYBE only a couple in the whole state , this IS chainsaw country._


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## stumpjumper83 (Jan 14, 2007)

I dont see mechanical being used to much for selective cuts either. There are some around, but they stick to small diameter clear cuts. What I see them most on is cutting off pine groves where your doing alot of stumps per acre. They also have problems with large diameter trees. But I think both mechanical and the two footed loggers have their place and they can co-exist and be fine.

:sword:


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## Lonnie (Jan 14, 2007)

They are using tree cutter mechanes here in the lower part of wva on the flat lands lol wot little flat lands when have. They keep cutters on site for the rough stuff lol I walk around on ground so steep I think one my legs is longer then the other..


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## woodhog (Jan 14, 2007)

Here in Western PA, most of the logging crews are Amish, so they cut with saws.


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## Lonnie (Jan 15, 2007)

Forget the cross cut saw....LOL


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## smokechase II (Jan 15, 2007)

*mechanical*

We use mechanical harvesters here in Central Oregon a lot.
It is flat ground overall. Most of these logging shows are commercial thins from below, so the stems aren't that big. Leave trees in Pondo stands commonly 17-20 foot spacing.
I like the harvesters combined with rubber tired skidders doing the turns. They do a particularly nice job of not tearing up the land or leave trees.

The faller with his trusty saw is a great image from a great time. 
Only a percentage of what they were. 

As stated before. Cannot use those harvesters on steep ground.


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## STIHL-KID (Jan 15, 2007)

Interesting replys so far. I do agree that a logger who carries a saw still has a purpose. The mechanical harvesters are limited by terrian and the tree diameter. I've seen some stuff in the national forest that is too big for a harvester machine. Steep inclines and canyons are places that require a skilled logger to perform felling techniques using a chainsaw. I guess each type of felling method has it's place.


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## Lonnie (Jan 15, 2007)

skip said:


> There are none in this part of WV and _MAYBE only a couple in the whole state , this IS chainsaw country._


_
They are 6 or so in the lower part of the state that I know of...I ahev seen oen at work around summerville.... They can not get them all.So god bless the man with the saw. TIMBER say it loud say it proud_


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## 1I'dJak (Jan 15, 2007)

here on coastal bc there will always be manual falling in old growth due to the size...plus all the valleys have been creamed so much of it takes place on steep ground...however, now to become a faller you gotta be certified and that costs $9500 now...too bad i missed out back when it was just $150... don't necessarily want to be a faller but it woulda been nice to have the ticket....


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## John Ellison (Jan 16, 2007)

Even in areas where the mech. harvesters are common, small properties are still being logged by hand falling. Those machines have limitations other than terrain and timber size.


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## Ed*L (Jan 16, 2007)

All of the hardwood logging around me is done by chainsaw. Several reasons for this, the trees are to big for harvesters, limited access doing select cuts and the price of a harvester is way beyond most small operations can afford.

Ed


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## Big A (Jan 16, 2007)

Much the same reply from this side of the pond too. harvesters are ok on the flat, and when the trees arent too close to property. Me and Steve (Bullman) got called in to take down edge trees (Pine) that leant out towards housing. The harvesters insurance probably didnt cover him to take them down. Although i didnt think about it at the time, they may have been too large for the harvester to handle as well, but my memory doesnt serve me THAT well!!


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## sILlogger (Jan 17, 2007)

*S. Illinois logging*

new to the site, this is my first thread, here in southern IL the cutting is done almost exclusively by chainsaw, mostly 395 husky's and 066 stihl, usually wearing 24" bars due to the fact that nearly all of the hardwoods get bore cut due to there size and high grade, mechanical cutters and usually only used when cutting pulpwood which does not occur a great deal around here in comparision to cutting saw logs. alot of areas here in the southern part of the state are too hilly to run a harvester, the only mechanical cutting equipment that i have used around here is a Barko 275B bucksaw, to work up and load logs. great site, glad to be a part of it.


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 18, 2007)

Better for the workers??? I bet none of the guys that lost their jobs due to them would tell you that!!! SW Va IS chainsaw country but we are seeing more Timbco's/Valmets around. Not many though as terrain and timber size still limits their use but with the state and Weyhauser as well as GP and Mead WestVaco pushing clear cutting (even on the mountain sides, which come to think of it is most of this part of the state!) you see them more and more! The big pulp companys are really pushing the clear cutting and most of what we have is hardwood. They are absoultly trashing our woods! If you go to Va's Timber watch site (eco nuts) and look at the list of water quality violations put out by the state you'll notice that those big companys have the most violations (almost all of their work is done independatly by contract loggers, but they are following the companys guidelines and orders) the big sawmills are also getting in on the act.


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## windthrown (Jan 18, 2007)

*Buzz saws here...*

Not many harvesters here in this part of Oregon. Too steep for them here. The coastal mountain ranges are steep and chainsaws and sawyer crews still are dominant here for slicking off and thinning. Main system used here is cable yarding. Some helicopter stuff as well, but now that the prices have fallen I have not seen many helicopters flying around for harvesting logs.


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## Timberhauler (Jan 20, 2007)

A shear or sawhead harvester can only handle trees of a certain diameter.Outside of my tree service,I also do alot of logging on smaller lots where selective cutting is required,usually the trees are too big for a mechanical harvester.A friend of mine owns a multi-million dollar logging outfit,and he still uses chainsaws everyday.When you are in big,valuable timber,it pays to take the time to limb and buck the trees by hand.


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 20, 2007)

I've seen guys cut some 36'' oak with a disc head but they have to cut it from 2 or 3 sides, its not safe really but if they can get the machine around the tree to do it then they will. I've also seen them bust those trees trying it as well.


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 20, 2007)

That CAT guy sounds like a typical fat ass salesmen. Blabbing his big mouth about the biz just to sell his product.
Besides CAT feller bunchers are obsolete around here. I cut oversize (too big for machines) every once in awhile and TIMBCO is all this area uses. As far a steep ground many of you would be very suprised. The cabs are self leveling and like any thing else a machine is only as good as the operator.
But back to the basic question, it is probably 60-to-40 here, 60 being on myside - manual.


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## Billy_Bob (Jan 21, 2007)

Beware of what salesmen tell you!

Salesmen *want* you to think things are a certain way, so they twist the facts to get everyone thinking in a way which will benefit them the most (more sales).

This is called propaganda. Propaganda is used in advertising, sales, politics, and wars.

Here is some info on Propaganda...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda


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## Lonnie (Jan 21, 2007)

There is a business here that just went out of business...He had a fella buncher ...Im wondering if the steep ground what made him go out of business? We use saws at work but we are cutting for a excavators for setting the logs out works well...It gets more then leaves lol cuz of the ground thats when dozer gets in play///


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## bwalker (Jan 21, 2007)

Most of the logging in the Central part of Upper MI is done by machine, Typicly feller buncher, forwarder and slasher combos.


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## Fumbler (Jan 22, 2007)

The southeast is dominated by feller bunchers.
However, we have river basin rules in some areas that limit mechanical harvesting and skidding within certain distances from streams.
In these instances, some loggers use feller bunchers with articulating booms and reach into the streamside management zone.
Those feller bunchers are expensive, so most of the time the trees are hand felled with chainsaws.

There's always room for at least one good hand feller.

Of course there's always a few loggers that harvest with feller bunchers and skid all through the streamside management zones.
They never understand why we write them up when we do our logging inspections:bang:


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## jon72 (Jan 27, 2007)

STIHL-KID said:


> I recently attended a job fair seminar featuring Caterpillar. During the presentation the speaker talked about the latest heavy equipment for logging. He specifically talked about the machines that grapple trees and saws them off. While speaking of this subject, he joked that the good ol' days of using a chainsaw to cut down trees is dead because of all the high technology machines available. I got thinking about this comment and wondered how true or untrue this really is? Are the heavy machines dominating the bulk of cutting trees? Is the chainsaw only used occasionally in logging operations? To me, it's almost kinda sad to see manual labor with chainsaws in the logging industry disappear. I also realize that phasing-out labor intensive, back-breaking work is beneficial to the workers and overall costs associated. I would certainly like to hear what the true modern story is for chainsaw VS. heavy equipment machine.


There is a lot of both here in Maine and(I think)both are here to stay.As long as a guy with a chainsaw and a cable skidder can make a good living he'll keep doing it.I know I wouldn't trade it for a $15,000 a month payment.


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## Rick Alger (Jan 27, 2007)

*hand crews*

Another thing in the cable skidders favor is flexibility. Now that a lot of mills are back on quotas, some of the buncher/grapple outfits can't work a full week. The jobber I'm working with parked his grapple and hired a cable guy. He can give the cable guy a full weeks work, but he couldn't ship the production a buncher/grapple system would put out in a week.


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## gjersy (Jan 27, 2007)

Tree processors r dominating here (WI) however I park my old one alot to cut nice sawlogs or big stuff or steep fozen hillsides.The guys with the new ones cut sawlogs but they do fiber damage where the steel roller wheels puncture the bark as it is fed through the head.


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## Timberjackboy (Jan 27, 2007)

*Cable skidders*

In my part of the country most of the logging on government and the lage company lands is being done by bunchers and grapple skidders, although up in the northern part of the rpovince harvesters and forwarders are replacing the bunchers, lot flatter ground up there. A buncher can work on steeper gorund then a harvesters do to its shorter boom, and i don't even know how you would load a forwarder on a side hill, they are tippy enough on flat gound. A buncher will also handle a much larger tree then a harvestor. The advantages of a harvestor how ever is that they separate your pulp from your stud and stud from your logs, so the mills have less work when it comes. Although a buncher can handle a much larger tree. The cable skidder/chain saw boys are mostly scrounging for stumpage on private ground , and a few have asmall contracts with the large companies cutting over size and what not, but with ina few years over size will no longer exist cause it will be cut befor it ever gets a chance to grow very big. Wood now is also going at much lower rpices per cord. The mills are being plugged full, cable skidder guys around here are running machines from the 70s and 80s no one can afford to buy new machines cause you never know when you will have work anymore and the prices are way down. Personally i think it was better for everyone befor this mechanical revolution of the forest industry took place. We still had forests left and people were still making good money. Now contractors have to cut so much just to pay the monthly payments on these large machines. A hydraulic pump on a Ponssee beaver harvestor runs about $50,000 canadian is what I have been told.


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