# Z-133



## stockie (Jan 20, 2001)

Hey guys
I am a studentat the Stockbridge school of Agriculture. This pastsemester in class we went over the Z-133, and my Prof. is on the board for it, or something like that. His name is H.P.Dennis Ryan III. And we got the whole run down on it, and he went over the changes that happened this year. I was just wondering how many of the real world people follow what it says, or if its something that most Arborist ignore. Thanks alot


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## Eric E. (Jan 20, 2001)

Stockie, I would imagine that Dennis explained to you that Z-133 is what OSHA uses for writing violations. Professionals use the standards but then this is a field where 90% of the businesses aren't Professionals. Your eye opener will be when you look for a job and find out that most guys have never read a book on arboriculture.
Eric


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## Ray Morneau (Jan 21, 2001)

Hey, Stockie -- Eric is right - you'll find alot ot unskilled workers in this profession.

But what makes it a Profession (capital P) is guys who do pay attention to the academic side, the professional side, the ANSI Standards, the OSHA code, the Code(s) of Ethics, ....

Yes, some of us writing specs call for ISA Certified Arborists to be supervising Certified Tree Workers and insist that published standards be followed -- absent pre-approved alternatives, I want ANSI A300 and Z133 followed. (No, nobody has ever shown me better standards to see if I would pre-approve them - but I have to build in equivalency clauses or the attorneys shudder.) (It also allows for a congenial discussion of the differences if someone produces and old set of NAA specs -- but of course the more modern text wins.)

And, yes, more and more, here in the Bay Area (SF) not just cities and governmental entites but also homeowners are beginning to look to what the standards mean for the care of their trees. As an informal guess, I average three people a day that I discuss/mention ANSI A300 standards to/with.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 2, 2002)

Ray and Eric,
Well said. I would like to add that the sooner you put the capitol P in professional, the sooner your profession will be successful, if that makes sense.
It should also be noted that ANSI Standards are only a starting point for safety, a point to build from or minimun standard.


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## treeclimber165 (Dec 2, 2002)

*Idunno*

I perform my job to the best of my ability, applying what I've heard and read over the last 17 years. But the closest I've ever been to actually SEEING the Z is the pre-draft that I had gotten from a website and had on my other computer (it's gone now). I'm not going to start a pizzing match, but I'm still of the opinion that few Arborists are going to PAY for a copy of the rules. The sooner that the Z is made publicly available, the sooner Arborists will actually start studying it and applying it. And customers will be able to hold the contractor up to the standards if they actually have access to them. 
Even after being in this field all my adult life, I didn't even find out where the standards are available until last year. To expect a homeowner/property owner to buy/obtain the standards to make sure their Arborist is doing proper work is asinine. Until the NAA and ISA actually start promoting proper tree care instead of selling it, we will not have consistent quality in tree care.

You started a thread to discuss the Z, but how many here have actually read it? Or have a copy they can put their hands on?

That's MY 2¢. I promise I'll try not to argue when someone disagrees with me on this.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 2, 2002)

It never ceases to amaze me how isolated people are in this industry.


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## treeclimber165 (Dec 2, 2002)

And keep in mind that the Arborists that read this thread on this forum are among the most 'connected' in the industry. To get a better idea of how things work in the real world outside this safe little bubble, go drive through some neighborhoods until you spot some guys doing tree work out of a pickup truck. Stop and ask THEM if they have a copy of the Z. 

WE are supposed to be the ones spreading the word about proper tree care, by words and by example. If I were to approach some guy spiking some trims and/or topping trees and suggest that he stop and go find somewhere to BUY the standards, I would probably get his chainsaw inserted into one or more orifices of my body. If I could walk up and hand him a copy of the Z, there is a chance he might actually read it.


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## Oxman (Dec 2, 2002)

Hi Stockie,

Glad you're taking the Arboriculture degree program seriously. It will soon be obvious what an incredible advantage it is to have been given an overview of our profession. I would like you to run down those changes that happened this year. I have not seen anything published in 2002. Sounds like you have access to state of the art information. 

I do regard what we do as a profession, as it is highly specialized, we write our own specs (diagnosis & prescription) and we charge the client what we decide the job is worth.

It is futile to worry needlessly about what the other guy does to trees. I don't mean to say not to keep market research as a foundation of your business. Just regard poor quality service within our industry as a mark of distinction between you and the competition. 

As far as not wanting to pay for the standards books, I dismiss that arguement after about a half-second. An arborist can not make even one dollar ethically without being in compliance with ANSI. 

The tree owner assumes the standards are being adhered to. They would regard anyone who fails in this way to be informed about what the industry consensus has stated is standard practice as a derelict, rogue shyster who fraudulently misrepresents their services. People can recognize scam artists when armed with criteria like ANSI.


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## Tim Gardner (Dec 2, 2002)

As long as I got my duct tape, ladder and circular saw I don’t need no stinkin’ Z.  

As soon as I get an extra $20 I plan to order a copy from Sherrill. I plan to make "myself" lots of "back-up" copies just in case I loose the original.

I fully understand spending $200.00 on a saddle to protect myself but I really have a problem spending $20.00 for a Nickels worth of paper. Organizations pass out condoms and needles to protect druggies and perverts from themselves but will charge us, the people that actually make a difference in this world, for protection which is cheaper than those condoms and needles. Apparently whores and crack heads are more valuable than arborists.


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## treeclimber165 (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Oxman _
> *........The tree owner assumes the standards are being adhered to. They would regard anyone who fails in this way to be informed about what the industry consensus has stated is standard practice as a derelict, rogue shyster who fraudulently misrepresents their services. People can recognize scam artists when armed with criteria like ANSI. *


And just what 'people' would be armed with criteria like ANSI when most of the guys performing the work don't even have it?

If you are insinuating that I am a 'scam artist' or a 'derilict rogue shyster' since I don't own a ????ing $20 piece of paper, then I take offense. I've run crews for a few companies, including a nationally known outfit. If any of them had a copy of the 'Z', it was never offered to the guys actually out doing the work. The plain fact is, the current distribution method does not work. Sure, the big companies have copies, where they get filed in the office and never seen or used by the guys doing the climbing. Like Daniel said, I'm fairly confident that I am generally in compliance. But I have no way of even finding out if I am in compliance without paying some schysters for a copy of the laws which they will use to govern me.

The original post asked if we Arborists IGNORED the 'Z'. Maybe I do, and maybe I don't. I follow what I think it might say. All my life support gear is rated and gets inspected every time I use it. All my pruning is performed to the best of my ability and to Certified Arborist standards (I was certified 8 years ago). I'm the only climber I know in this area that wears a climbing helmet (the big outfits make the climbers wear hardhats without chinstraps). There may be some technical double-talk 'gotcha's in the Z which I may not know about but I do my best to work safely. If that makes me a 'shyster', then I guess I'm in the wrong profession. Maybe one day I'll be perfect like you. :angry2:


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## treeclimber165 (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Oxman _
> *It is futile to worry needlessly about what the other guy does to trees. I don't mean to say not to keep market research as a foundation of your business. Just regard poor quality service within our industry as a mark of distinction between you and the competition. *


Between atitudes like this and organizations like NAA and ISA squeezing our gonads for every nickle they can get, don't expect any major changes in our industry any time soon. The public will see a hundred hacked trees for every tree you prune properly. And the vast majority will look at the tree you pruned and say it needs to be elevated for clearance then topped. Without getting the word out to the tree guys who are ignorant of the standards or the customers who constantly ask to have their trees topped, the hacks will continue to serve an ignorant public. I hope you are happy in your protected little world, wish I could work there. 

I try my best to talk customers out of whacking off every limb over their roof on a daily basis. I'm lucky to convince about 30%. I climb for guys who follow behind me with a polesaw and try to remove any green limbs I might leave in the interior of the trees. After I work some long low tips, they often come by with a power pruner and whack off the ends I just pruned. I do the best I can within the environment in which I work. A $25 piece of paper won't help much. Change comes slow for most. 

If you were truly interested in trees instead of just your own self, you might just see where your attitude is just as damaging to our industry as the hacks. YOU know better, but think it should be priviledged information. Let the hacks destroy a hundred trees for every one you prune properly. Then come back 5 years later and see where someone topped your tree. How is that helping anything?


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## NickfromWI (Dec 3, 2002)

*ANSI should be free*

After considering both sides of the argument (or at least that to which i've been exposed), I've come to the conclusion that the ANSI standards SHOULD be available free....perhaps even online.

If it was just a committee coming up with standards that were merely suggestions... they should have every right to try to sell them. They put their hard work and expertise in to it, they deserve pay. However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies.

Brian had a good point when he said that it would be nice for those "in the know" to have a couple extra copies in the truck to hand out to hacks that we see on a day to day basis. 

Free copies would be better for the trees, better for the clients, better for the hack companies, and better for those of us in the know.

That being said, my copy is already on order. I tried to get it through the library, but that didn't work out!

love
nick


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## Treeman14 (Dec 3, 2002)

ALL of my employees receive a copy of the Z when they are hired. (Sorry, Brian. Subs don't get one.) They also receive a company policy manual, safety rules, drug policy and drug testing info. I can't MAKE them read these things, but we do review them during safety meetings and they are available to all employees. Yes, this costs money, but as an employer, I am morally and ethically, if not legally, bound to provide as much safety and training as possible to provide a healthy work environment. It's false economy to spend $200 on a saddle, $100 on a climbing line, $20 biners, etc. and then forego the relatively cheap $20 standard for the work you do.


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## Treeman14 (Dec 3, 2002)

BTW, I think its ludicrous to expect a homeowner to obtain and read the Z. Do you read the ANSI standards for electricians or A/C, or plumbers before you have work done on your house? ALL industries have published standards which are expected to be followed by reputable businesses. A smart consumer can usually determine how reputable a company is with a little bit of research. For those who are too lazy or too busy to get some information before purchasing a product or service, caveat emptor. (Let the buyer beware.)


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## coydog (Dec 3, 2002)

Your argument comparing arborists to plumbers might hold water if tree work were not by it's very nature, highly subjective. shoddy plumbing is obvious, hack tree work is often times what the customer wants and expects. That being said, it is impractical to expect homeowners to comprehensively read ansi standards, my suggestion, pop the 20 bucks and compose a leaflet explaining the most relevant aspects to the homeowner complete with links and references, as well as carrying an unabridged copy with you in the field.
I do, however, think it is shameful that the information is not publicly available on-line and/or through public libraries. ALL ansi standards should be available for free viewing to the public, and there might even be less hack plumbing out there if it was!


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## Stumper (Dec 3, 2002)

Hmmm ..... I don't have a copy of the Z but have read it . I do have a copy of A300 (standards I was adhering to before I ever read them) We can't blame ANSI (a private orginization ) for charging for their product. If OSHA is going to enforce anything (Ja, dis iz der freedom) then it sees reasonable that they should publish the rules. 
With all due respect Oxman.-Working without a copy of the Z is unethical?????? Man, all those unethical people in the past who did't carry someone else's written ideas of how to be safe! I will agree that there is a lack of ethics in jumping into something with no idea of what you are doing or the potential consequences, but the Z is just a safety standard. Within itself it provides exceptions to bow to experience of the practitioner. 
Incidently this imformation is available on-line-just not from ANSI.

P.S. Oxman, I apologize! I just reread thjings and realized that I misrepresented you. You actually said compliance rather than possessing a copy of the standards. I jumped on things a little prematurely. Sorry.


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## TREETX (Dec 3, 2002)

Are they copyrighted?? I quote them often in my proposals.

The customer should have a good understanding of what quality tree care is. We need quality trade orgs that do more than plug their books at high prices. Why should you pay to get a CEU? I can understand seminars, etc or if you are too dim to seek the latest info and research on your own, but why can't I buy a book that isn't on their "list"? Is it only continuing education if I read "their" books?? I have a university degree in this area and have actually done the work in 4 states and 3 countries. Yes, I read their books plus the other gems I can find. But these orgs can get bent for all I care. Their goal is to make money off me, not for me. I would pay an extra $200 a year if they would promote the trade and educate the public instead of preaching to the choir for a fee. 

I have the Z for free. Whether you use it as a bible to work by or not, you should know it well. You should get your hands on as much info as possible. That combined with day after day and year after year of observation is how we learn about and deliver quality tree care.

Yes, we are very isolated, without the presence of any REAL trade orgs that promote the trade or have a certification requirement that is more than a simple literacy test, it will be hard to have change. Passing the ISA cert is not some major achievement, it is just an exam that separates you from the droolers.

Take the hook - please convince me to think otherwise


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## Nickrosis (Dec 3, 2002)

Wow, good topic. I don't want to seem like I think I'm God coming down from heaven, but I want to try to clarify a couple of things. Think of me as the punk kid who thinks he knows it all, but you just sit back and roll your eyes the moment I look away.

"Until the NAA and ISA actually start promoting proper tree care instead of selling it, we will not have consistent quality in tree care."

Cheap shot. Bring that up somewhere else, on topic. The NAA and ISA are not ANSI (although you can re-arrange letters...).

"Never seen it, or read it. However, I am sure I practice it"

Rrriiiiight.

"To get a better idea of how things work in the real world outside this safe little bubble, go drive through some neighborhoods until you spot some guys doing tree work out of a pickup truck. Stop and ask THEM if they have a copy of the Z."

We should be bringing those people up to the next level.

"As far as not wanting to pay for the standards books, I dismiss that arguement after about a half-second. An arborist can not make even one dollar ethically without being in compliance with ANSI."

Agreed. Doesn't mean you have to own it, but you should have read it recently so that you know you're following it.

"...I really have a problem spending $20.00 for a Nickels worth of paper."

You're paying for the paper and for the entire ANSI organization! Money doesn't fall out of the sky at the ANSI headquarters - they need to pay their own bills, too.

"However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies."

Suppose you wrote something about knot-tying that the military decided it really liked. They then ask you for 5 million copies - free. That would be unfair! It's unfair to ask a non-profit organization to outfit the millions of tree people with those books. It's not fair to put them on the Internet so people never buy them. I think the price is too high, but it isn' out of hand.

"ALL of my employees receive a copy of the Z when they are hired. "

Sweet.

"BTW, I think its ludicrous to expect a homeowner to obtain and read the Z."

Sure, but they would buy it if you screwed up something. I know their lawyer would be quoting it in court.

"Are they copyrighted?? I quote them often in my proposals."

You can quote the Z but not in its entirety without permission.

*I'm out.* That's all I have to say. 

Nickrosis


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## NickfromWI (Dec 3, 2002)

post from nickrosis:

{However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies."}
Suppose you wrote something about knot-tying that the military decided it really liked. They then ask you for 5 million copies - free. That would be unfair! It's unfair to ask a non-profit organization to outfit the millions of tree people with those books. It's not fair to put them on the Internet so people never buy them. I think the price is too high, but it isn' out of hand.

nickrosis- i think you missed my point on this one. to take your example. if i wrote a knot tying manual (133), and the military (OSHA) was going to require all the marines (us) to have a copy of it, then the MILITARY should buy them, and give them out. Just like I think if OSHA used their funds to mass produce the Z, subsidize the ANSI committee, then distribute the Z to tree care people.

so clip that to your saddle and climb it up a tree!  

love
nick


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## TREETX (Dec 3, 2002)

Like JPS said, we are alone (isolated) that means we are going to have to educated ourselves by what ever means necessary. You don't have to buy it, you don't even have to abide by it, but you should at least read it.

I never said the isa should give free books, I just don't think we should have to buy those books to get ceus. If I read or conduct research on my own, isn't that a continuing education? Here comes a tangent - I'll just stop now


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## CJ-7 (Dec 3, 2002)

Interesting thread. For those of us not familiar with the standard you are referring to, it it quite lengthy? Is it something that someone could put in outline form on one or two sheets in a word format and post for everyone to reproduce and hand out to your workers and clients and to stick under the wiper blade of some of those hack toppers? A copy attached to a quote may enlighten many a customer thinking about taking the low bid from a non-professional. I would be interested in seeing a quick recap of Z-133 if someone has the time to put one together. Or is A-300 the standard that would be of the most use?


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## Nickrosis (Dec 3, 2002)

I'm glad you know so much more than I do. I'm still wondering one thing...how do you know you're abiding by something that you haven't even seen? How? I'm not attacking you, and I'm not sorry. I have never seen your work, I did not indicate that you perform substandard work, but I don't know how you know what the Z.133 says without seeing it. I believe you perform excellent tree care judging by your posts and what I've heard of your business.

About OSHA and ANSI...the relationship is this: OSHA uses the ANSI standards as guidelines in evaluating accident cases. Why should they subsidize ANSI? Having ANSI as an independent, industry-driven organization is best, in my view, instead of having government dictate what we should be doing in our work.

The Z.133 talks about tree care techniques and spends a lot of time defining terms - something that a homeowner probably wouldn't care to read about. Here's what we distribute to our customers regarding ANSI - it's a publication that I wrote.
http://www.arboristdesign.com/portfolio/print/ctl_phc_summer_02.jpg

TreeTX, I have a lengthy complaint letter in the making for the ISA Certification Board.  They didn't listen to my comments in the past. Derek Vannice laughed off my criticisms when I visited the ISA office... another topic, another place, another time.

Contest what I say! I feel strongly about this, and I believe I have good reasons for feeling the way I do.

Nickrosis


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## TREETX (Dec 3, 2002)

Nick - I like the way you at least educate customers about any such national standard. I think that covers what a customer needs to know. They don't need to know the minutia of tree care. Whether we practice them or not, we all need to know them. It will help you cover your a$$.

I realize I pi$$ and moan about the ISA - wish I had some solutions. Busy with the staying afloat in the slow season here. Motivation and creativity are essential.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: ANSI should be free*

I've come to the conclusion that the ANSI standards SHOULD be available free [/QUOTE]

ANSI is an organization, they need to pay their bills to. 



> If it was just a committee coming up with standards that were merely suggestions... they should have every right to try to sell them.



In a way that is what is going on



> They put their hard work and expertise in to it, they deserve pay.



The commity members don't get much for there involvemnt.



> However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies.



This is the crux of the matter. OSHA wanted to treat our industry as loggers, the comity was established to write a national standard of safe operation so that companies could be held liable in the case of injury or death. 

If we were held to logging standards it would be impossible to fell a tree in a back yard.

Hard hats and eye protection SHALL be worn at all times when tree work is in progress. This way if PPE is not provided and there is a "struck by" injury to the head the employee injured has legal recourse.

If you are a person who works by themself, the stadards do not apply to you in an enforcement sence, since you are no ones employee.

As a buisness owner, one should know the standards so you know the bar to wich you will be judged by OSHA.

As an employee, you should be familiar with the standards so you know your rights in the workplace.



> Free copies would be better for the trees, better for the clients, better for the hack companies, and better for those of us in the know.
> 
> That being said, my copy is already on order. I tried to get it through the library, but that didn't work out!



That solves everything, Nick is the one giving out all the free copies. Just send a SASE to Ripon WI.


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## Eric E. (Dec 3, 2002)

professional ? or Professional ? I guess that is the difference. 

The only excuse for not having it is if you are self-employed and have no one working with you. If someone is injuried these are the standards you will be sued with.

If you work for someone then they should provide you with a copy. Thumbs up to Treeman 14!!! You'd be the kind of guy I'd work for.


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## Stumper (Dec 4, 2002)

CJ-7, If you do a web search for "ANSI " you should find a previous revision of Z-133. It can also be viewed through a link on the ISA web-site. The Z is not long. It is a commonsense approach to safety that goes a little further than the average person might conclude on their own. It consists of 'rules' about rope strengths, snap and carabiner styles and test ratings, safe use of gaffs, proper tie-in/attachment systems etc. The A-300 standard is much longer and sets standards for tree care operations (how to do the work rather than just safety). I consider A-300 to be much more useful for showing to a customer(though I have never actually shown it to a customer to back up my recommendations-I just reference it and most people accept what I'm saying.) I do not think never having read the standards automatically makes one a hack but I certainly recommend reading them.


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## Dan Flinn (Dec 4, 2002)

This is a great thread. I never really thought about it, much. I'll be honest, I have (and read) a copy so I can honestly represent to the customer that I follow the guidelines. 

I have read so many discussions about the ISA certification. I have it. Why? Because the clients I work for recognize that being certified is a commitment to constantly expanding my knowledge base. If they don't realize it before they call, they will after I meet with them. You and I both know that having the certification in no way makes me better than someone who doesn't. In fact, I basically perform work the same now as I did before I took the test. 

My reasons for having the certification is for client perception. Same goes for having/reading the Z standard. These are just more ways I can set myself apart, in the clients eye, from the "pack" of tree companies in my area.

Dan


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## Oxman (Dec 5, 2002)

The ANSI booklets may not be free, but what about each states own implementation of safety standards that are called OSHA? The state refers to these safety standards in its own law, effectively enforcing the ANSI safety portion. 

This is not the pruning standard we have been talking about, but its probably available for free. Hope it doesn't cost anyone an inspection to get it.

Sorry about taking a hard line in this thread, but why not walk the talk?


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## Eric E. (Dec 5, 2002)

Dan Flinn,

I like your thoughts on Certification...Some of the most intelligent reasoning for certification I've read yet.


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## Tim Walsh (Dec 9, 2002)

*ANSI's response to charging for standards questions:*

http://www.ansi.org/public/why_charge.html


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 9, 2002)

Thanks Tim, that answers the question quite thoroughly.

Tom


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## NickfromWI (Dec 10, 2002)

*Yippee!!!*

I got my "Z" today!!! Let me know if you need me to look something up!

love
nick


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## Stumper (Dec 10, 2002)

Nick, Please look up Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.


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## NickfromWI (Dec 11, 2002)

*WTF?*

Stumper,
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem."

love
nick

p.s. what was the point of that?


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## Stumper (Dec 11, 2002)

I was being silly about your offer to look stuff up Nick. However I was trying to send you to an important source of knowledge at the same time. The talking heads are constantly blithering about the "separation of church and state" but hardly anyone realizes that no such phrase exists in our Constitution. The phrase is Jefferson's but the context of its use shows a much different underlying principle than what some try to make the first ammendment be about. The 1st ammendment makes it clear that government can't dictate religion. Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists isn't about no prayer in public schools rather it holds up Christian education as the cure for government corruption. HMMMM......would that be in contrast to GOVERNMENT education........

Stuff for arborists to consider. To keep this from being totally off topic I'll say that as regards the Z. whether or not something is published and taught by the government or a private enterprise its morality and legitamacy are still open to review. Just because X, Y or Z says something does not necessarily make it so.


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## blackwaterguide (Dec 19, 2002)

That's Z133.1 isn't it? I appreciate treeclimber165 remarks--well said. I've been in logging, tree work, construction all my life. There are always corners to cut and shabby work to be done. But I've yet to see solid evidence that taking a class or test will assure that, if skill and years of experience prevail, that textbook rules will always be followed. It is good to have a beginning point of reference. Take it from there, do work you are proud of, and the profession/industry will thrive.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 19, 2002)

Those who equate the Z with good work do not understand what it is there for. It is an industry developed standard for OSHA to measure us buy so they do not apply logging and construction regulations to our work place.

Conformity is not obligatory, but the more people you have in your operation, the better it is to CYA by learning and following the standard.

For the production employee it is good to know what is there so you have a leg to stand on when the management gets on to do things that are not safe, or can you for not following directions.


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## blackwaterguide (Dec 20, 2002)

*spurs*

Hello guys,
Treeman and RFtree told it like it is. And, yes, I have spiked myself and my line...I do stupid stuff sometimes.
Ther really is no place for spurs (gaffs) on crown reduction for the reasons already mentioned. I started climbing back in the 70's when hemp was in (pun intended), but we knew then that spiking the cambium opened wounds for potential disease/pests. At the time we didn't have all the neat mountain climbing toys like you can get from Sherrill and others now. Hey, it's neat stuff and I enjoy trying to learn how to use it. You'd had a gut laugh if you saw me first time trying microcenders and figure 8's. But, alas, it is alot like any trade; the more specialized the tools and knowledge, the more money will be spent and charged. Don't know if I'll ever give up my rope snap, but the tautline has gone the wayside for blakes hitch long ago.


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## blackwaterguide (Dec 20, 2002)

*A300*

Right on Dan, and Stumper. Get certified to show the client something. Something you already knew and didn't necessarily need to be tested on. A300 more helpful than put on hard hat before driving skidder under hung tree. Let's face it, there is some really moronic red tape and foolishness going on. I really like that line "There is no government like no government" in many respects. But perhaps some of it comes to good avail, if it saves our soul from the morons. You all be careful out there and God bless


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## Nickrosis (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Down To Earth _
> *as usual you worded it better than me. I was a little offended earlier when stevens point, nick implied that since I dont have the Z there was no way that I could be applying the standard*



That was not the point. Here is my point so that there can be no misunderstanding and so that you can be offended without any obfuscation, which I would like to eschew.

*There is no way you can know that you are following the standard if you have not read it.*

This means:
1. You can be following it without reading it, but you cannot be sure of this until you read it.
2. You can not be following it without reading it, but you cannot be sure of this until you read it.
3. You can be following it and not be following it without reading it, but you cannot be sure of this until you read it.
4. Even after you read it, you may misinterpret it or interpret it in a way that the authors did not intend.

I'm not saying you're a hack because I cannot know this, and I'm not sitting at my computer thinking you are. All I know about you is what I gather from your posts and from what that dork said about you while he was flaming. So....have a nice day, and post after you have read the standard.

And Dan, if you would e-mail me a mailing address, I will send the Z-133 to you at no charge. Merry Christmas.

Nickrosis


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 24, 2002)

What paragraph in the Z133 has the specifications for "arborist rope"?

in the new revision draft (I just got a copy in the mail)

8.7.4 says that it must be ID'd by the OEM as suitible for tree work.

8.7.5 states that aid ropes need to meet MBS for "Arborist rope"

I'm wondering if ther is an omission here or revision confusion.


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## Eric E. (Dec 24, 2002)

JPS,
It is in the definitions chapter. Paragraph 3.5 of Z-133.1-2000


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 24, 2002)

Oh well, they've really redone this. 3.5 is lifting


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## Nickrosis (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> And Dan, if you would e-mail me a mailing address, I will send the Z-133 to you at no charge. Merry Christmas.[/B]



Dan, did you get the Z? A couple people e-mailed me claiming to be you, and I want to make sure the right person got it.

Nickrosis


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## abbott hill (Mar 22, 2003)

I would like to say,that, recently I have had to obtain literature to study for a master arborist license.It cost me over $400.00 to obtain just the absolute minimum needed to learn all of the standards and to practice them accordingly.And as has been stated , "you need to read the standards in order to know them:.I myself as a contientuos tree worker, do try to follow the standards, It makes the job easier, and ultimately more fun to complete.I also believe that if you truly do like the type of work required in the tree business,that acting in a Professional manner raises ones sense of self esteem.


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