# 4 acres in x days?



## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2015)

Gots a possible job, long story short dude thinks it can be done in a certain amount of days, I'm not so sure on it.

Any way Cedar Hemlock and Doug Fir, Flat ground no major obstacles, road on one side maybe a house on one end.

How long would it take you fine folks to fall, limb and buck these up for the mill, average 100' tall. so 2-3 logs per tree.

I figure it would take me 8-12 days, but I'm fat and gimpy.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2015)

Probably average PNW spacing, say 20-30' between or more.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Apr 13, 2015)

Do you need to skid and deck them too or just talking about felling? What equipment are you felling with?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2015)

Falling only he's going to yard em, hand falling, taint got no fancy feller buncher, just one dumb feller.


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## chucker (Apr 13, 2015)

cedar has a ton of limbs!! so with your estimate of covered area the count must be at 30 butt's to the acre @ 20"=28" dbh ..... might figure a days worth per acre just to limb without a count of specie's per acre hey?? could you have someone else help out with the limbing while you fell and buck? another question would be clear cut or select?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm ass-u-meing its a clear cut. At least I hope so, since he described the equipment he's wanting to use...

Don't figure on a huge amount of cedar, Probably a nice patch of Dougs, then a patch of Hemlock/cedar mix, heavy on the Hemlock.

Cedars are limby bitchs though... if'n its mostly ceder I'm thinking two days per acre...


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## chucker (Apr 13, 2015)

I would say your in the park ! any info for bottom end size ? I know there your trees grow far longer per year then the great cold north land..... a large Norway pine @ 90' has a dbh of 30" when your in good to excellent timber which isn't often.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Apr 14, 2015)

Based on your figured of a tree every 20ish feet I figured that works to about a spot 400 ft having a tree. (20x20). On 4 acres that works to around 1000 trees. If you spent 15 mins per tree that's about 270 hrs of labor.


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## KiwiBro (Apr 14, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Gots a possible job, long story short dude thinks it can be done in a certain amount of days


If I could join in the ASSuming, lemme guess that he wants to pay you a fixed job rate based on his idea of hours and not your idea or actual hours? Hand him your saw and tell him you'll be back in a day to check he is :
a- still alive
b- still as productive as he previously insisted
c- still thinks you're only worth the figures he was blowing out his rear end the day before
d-willing to pay for any damage he did to your gear


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## bitzer (Apr 14, 2015)

Is he lookin to pay you by job or day or hour or volume? I'm guessing its time of some kind? Get a tree count and figure how many you can reasonbly process per day. If you think you can do 40 per day then knock that back to 35 for wiggle room. That whole a guy can do this or that in how many days can be a trap.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 14, 2015)

Wants to pay a set rate for the whole job, depending on the actual thickness of the timber and whatnot its almost a reasonable offer... all depends on how thick they are.


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## treeslayer2003 (Apr 14, 2015)

i would figure a week............depends on weather to.... lots of little chit you gotta fall to? that will slow you down a bit.


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## BeatCJ (Apr 14, 2015)

Do you have much other work? Expenses will be relatively low as compared to running your equipment, so if you underestimate your time, you aren't hurt bad. Can you get onto the site to see how much work it really is? Come back with what you think is reasonable, and be prepared to look for something else.


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## Joe46 (Apr 14, 2015)

Been out of the game too long NM. But you and I both know that if those cedars are limby bustards you can spend a lot of time pounding wedges.


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## chucker (Apr 14, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Wants to pay a set rate for the whole job, depending on the actual thickness of the timber and whatnot its almost a reasonable offer... all depends on how thick they are.


might he let you do an acre to test out the site ? It could be good for him and even better for you in the long run! if so your in like Flynn! safe an sane beats down an out! if (that little word with the biggest meaning) he's game for it and want's you to do the job for sure"RUN FOREST RUN" !!


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## bitzer (Apr 14, 2015)

chucker said:


> might he let you do an acre to test out the site ? I could be good for him and even better for you in the long run! if so your in like Flynn! safe an sane beats down an out! if (that little word with the biggest meaning) he's game for it and want's you to do the job for sure"RUN FOREST RUN" !!


You are an odd duck.


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## chucker (Apr 14, 2015)

QUACK?? lol


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 14, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Based on your figured of a tree every 20ish feet I figured that works to about a spot 400 ft having a tree. (20x20). On 4 acres that works to around 1000 trees. If you spent 15 mins per tree that's about 270 hrs of labor.





ValleyFirewood said:


> Based on your figured of a tree every 20ish feet I figured that works to about a spot 400 ft having a tree. (20x20). On 4 acres that works to around 1000 trees. If you spent 15 mins per tree that's about 270 hrs of labor.


20×20,..the 400ft...but you lost me on the = part. Think you were out 600 trees there Vf
its pretty important to know your spacing
Example:
An acre is 209ft ×209ft..going on memory.
so thats 10.5 trees every 210ft
10x 10 = 100 trees
.5× 10 = 5 trees
105 trees per acre at an average of 20ft
But at 30 ft spacing your at 30 × 7 = 210 ft
7×7 = 49 only....big difference!
Thats either 420 vs 196 trees..
Got to sharpen you pencil.
If your have a logging tape or hip chain & compass, do some random plots measere out 104ft
North, South,East,West. Do a couple of 3 random plots through an acre then x by 4 as thats a 1/4 acre. 52ft sq is only a 16th of an acre. May work better with the big plot me thinks. It won't lie to you.
Things to think about?You have retention falling on one side it sounds it is a narrow long strip? Things that slow it down.
How about the road? Are you required to have certified trafic control personal?
Or at least responsible to bring in a spotter for that time? Bottom line. You need to know if your dealing with '50 or 105 trees'
Per acre. The rest I would break it down per tree. Since its just you then only you know. If a job was big then it would be based on what an AVERAGE guy can do.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 14, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> Do you have much other work? Expenses will be relatively low as compared to running your equipment, so if you underestimate your time, you aren't hurt bad. Can you get onto the site to see how much work it really is? Come back with what you think is reasonable, and be prepared to look for something else.



Not enough to count on... 

Planning on heading up Fri. to take a look, and possible haggle over the cost etc. Figure if I can get it done in 8 days or so then its worth what he's willing to pay, just have to think about camping out since its up by the kanukian border (100 mi plus one way). Thats ok cause I got family not far from it.


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## chucker (Apr 14, 2015)

spot on! with your sharp pencil west! man can lie to his/her liking but numbers never lie, although some times we wish the bottom line was.... or at least incorrect!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Apr 14, 2015)

Oh I agree, my math would were just figures "guessed" using a tree about every 20 ft. Your explanation makes complete sense. Timber crusing is a tough job.





Westboastfaller said:


> 20×20,..the 400ft...but you lost me on the = part. Think you were out 600 trees there Vf
> its pretty inportant to know your spacing
> Example:
> An acre is 209ft ×209ft..going on memory.
> ...


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

What are "x days"??
Just tryin' to learn.

*I'VE MOVED HERE*


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## Joe46 (Apr 17, 2015)

Be leaving soon?


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

Joe46 said:


> _*Be leaving soon?*_


Depends... as long as I'm enjoyin' myself it's hard to put a date on it.
Figure... oh... I don't know... 3, maybe 4 months.
Ain't got much else to do when the weather gets too hot for loggin' in Iowa.

*I'VE MOVED HERE*


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## BeatCJ (Apr 17, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> What are "x days"??
> Just tryin' to learn.
> 
> *I'VE MOVED HERE*


"x", as I remember from High School Algebra is a variable. He was trying to solve for it...

I only remembered this from helping my granddaughter with her homework.


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> _*"x", as I remember from High School Algebra is a variable.*_


OH‼?‼
I dropped out'a school.

*I'VE MOVED HERE*


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## northmanlogging (Apr 17, 2015)

Well... X is a math thing... If your gonna hang out, try to at least keep up. We're not expecting much, but if you have to explain a joke its just not funny.

Anyway that was a long ****ing drive... 

Its dog hair and not much of its marketable, hack and burn about half of it, 1 maybe, big, maybe 2 logs in 1/10 of the trees


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## chucker (Apr 17, 2015)

?? pass on it then if it's like hair on a dogs back! probably spend more time picking your self up off the ground or untangling from under growth ... sounds like an accident waiting.....


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2015)

yup... not much undergrowth and ded flat... but still lots of little whips. What he needs is a feller buncher and a Cat.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 18, 2015)

Thats what it sounded like if the height was accurate? You get a 2.5 ft leader a year here aprox. So that puts the stand at about 40 year. A commercial thinging may be done at around 45 years and an 80-100 year rotation. That doesn't sound ready for nothing.
Thats why I was hesitant to give a personal estimation. I know those smaller trees with full crowns can take forever to limb. (Ref. Non salvage experience )
Big trees are not so bad for the specs I deal with. Highlead we'll limb a few spikes for the tape, daylighting, just fall towards a new spur road and walk away. Heli, its three sides. but most of the volume doesn't have a live crown either . Many specs will not be smaller than 15 " Dia unless its smaller cedars that we'll limb out one length to 8" For poles.so its mainly faster than juvenile trees with no crown competition.


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## treeslayer2003 (Apr 18, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Well... X is a math thing... If your gonna hang out, try to at least keep up. We're not expecting much, but if you have to explain a joke its just not funny.
> 
> Anyway that was a long ****ing drive...
> 
> Its dog hair and not much of its marketable, hack and burn about half of it, 1 maybe, big, maybe 2 logs in 1/10 of the trees


thats what i figured..........another one looking for cheap labor.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2015)

I am probably dumb enough to do it... but I told the guy there wasn't much there... he got upset and said I Wasn't Right For the Job...

**** em Let em loose money.


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## KiwiBro (Apr 18, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> he got upset


 and never thanked you for the time and money you spent getting there and back to give him your honest opinion? Good riddance.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2015)

Meh skagit topia and Whatcom is some pretty country to drive through... that and Bellingham is a college town with lots a cuties to oggle.


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## Gologit (Apr 18, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> I am probably dumb enough to do it... but I told the guy there wasn't much there... he got upset and said I Wasn't Right For the Job...
> 
> **** em Let em loose money.



Yup, another would-be land and timber baron who asks for your advice and then argues with it. They don't want advice, they want you to validate some screwball idea that they already have.
The fact that what they want is unrealistic, unprofitable, probably illegal and most definitely dumb is beside the point. If you can't or won't do it you're "not the man for the job".
I never lost a dime on a job I didn't do.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2015)

Funny thing, as I drove away from it those words where floating through my head... 

He actually had permits for it, crazy I know, and he may even have been the legal owner. Still a dumbass though.

Wants to use an off road fork lift for skidding... didn't mention that part... was being nice... probably thought the stumps would be ground level and the brush would magically disappear like cotton candy in the rain...


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## chucker (Apr 18, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> I am probably dumb enough to do it... but I told the guy there wasn't much there... he got upset and said I Wasn't Right For the Job...
> 
> **** em Let em loose money.


like I stated in an earlier post, lucky for you! your not tangled in his junk .......... ? forklift hey!! that's a good one. lol


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## Gypo Logger (May 6, 2015)

I'd be doing on shares. If it's good timber 50% for you and 50% for the land owner. If you do the marketing you hold the check. If the would be timber baron doesn't want to go for it then I'd walk.
Maybe you could get a ballpark price for the timber while it's still on the stump.


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## northmanlogging (May 6, 2015)

Ball park I'd say 8 loads... maybe and maybe a total of 8k all said and done...

1 in 15 of them trees was marketable, and only just... one 30-36' log barely to dia spec... so 30 logs to a load ish... And the scaler would be cursing my existence and gyppos in general the rest of the day. Not to mention the self loader jockey questioning my sanity...


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## Skeans (May 6, 2015)

Sounds like it needs a tight thinning and came back through in about 5 to 10 for a re thin, but from sounds of it I sure wouldn't do it even running ctl equipment down here. I'd talk the land owner into a light precommercial thin since they left it so tight.


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## northmanlogging (May 6, 2015)

Guy can't answer the phone anyway...

And won't listen to reason, his "logger friends" told him its worth lots of money... so course is set let er run...

Didn't ask why these logger friends didn't offer to cut it for cheap...


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## Skeans (May 6, 2015)

I know that small I wouldn't touch it too small to move in our 653 with that fabtek head and from the sounds of it that's what it needs. The other thing is from the sounds it needs to be cut in 20' or 16' to get any scale out of the stuff which is hard to talk a land owner into if they don't understand scale.


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## northmanlogging (May 6, 2015)

Pulp... and cutting pulp by hand around here is a good way to go broke and end up in traction. No money and long hours in it.

I've considered fabbing up a small delimber for the tops and what not so I can sell em as fire wood loads, but it would mean dragging one stick at a time with a cable skidder or build a proper grapple for the backhoe, both are more work then its worth.


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## Skeans (May 6, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Pulp... and cutting pulp by hand around here is a good way to go broke and end up in traction. No money and long hours in it.
> 
> I've considered fabbing up a small delimber for the tops and what not so I can sell em as fire wood loads, but it would mean dragging one stick at a time with a cable skidder or build a proper grapple for the backhoe, both are more work then its worth.


Before we had the four roller and a ctr delimber we had a chain flail on a skidder and a 455 John Deere track loader and ran them right over the logs


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## northmanlogging (May 6, 2015)

that there is a Hel of an idea...

little bobcat with a chain flail instead, deck em up on a side landing, munch the bushes stack the sticks call the truck... just might be worth looking into.

a guy could have another side to the logging munching brush with the skid steer...


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## Skeans (May 6, 2015)

Would you like picture of our old setup?


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## treeslayer2003 (May 6, 2015)

Skeans said:


> Would you like picture of our old setup?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes please


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## bitzer (May 7, 2015)

Matt a few weeks ago I did 5 acres. I would never have agreed to it normally, but when its wet in spring you take what you can get. Mostly pulp, some small (but decent grade) saw timber, and some big uglies. It took me 80 hours and I felt beat to hell at the end of every day. About 22mbf and 65 cords. Probably 600 pole trees and 200 sawtimber. Sawtimber averaged 12-14" dbh. Polewood 6-8". I was glad when I was following the lowboy outta there. This was me alone cut and skid as usual. I made money, but I had to push hard to get it.


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## BeatCJ (May 7, 2015)

Skeans said:


> ...a ctr delimber ...


Which model CTR?


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## Skeans (May 7, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> Which model CTR?


Seems like it was a 550 we haven't had it for almost 20 years. It was fully self contained with a little Kubota diesel, then had a slasher rack with a bar saw on it, they both worked good but we got into smaller wood all the time and having that fixed 4 roller harvester head is we can cut and process the longer legs with less damage.


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## Skeans (May 7, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> yes please


It's not the greatest, we built the whole thing, think of a stump grinder basically.


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