# '87 Chevy, Need Some GM masterminds!



## axlr8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Okay guys, here she blows. My older brother is freshly sent to the National guard. He left behind his truck, and he likes it. So, I wanna make him love it. It is a 1987 Chevrolet R10, Custom Deluxe. It has the Chevy 350 TBI, and a 700R4 trans. (If im not mistaken??!) it is a fleetside, and had dual tanks, we removed both and only replaced the right side. I may install the second if I can find the money, brackets, and time. 

Heres the deal. Im looking to put headers, a mild cam, some chrome, a full tube dual exhaust, and maybe electronic cutouts on it. If I can get the engine and trans all sorted out, I will then look into interior, and then finally onto the exterior (bigg task...)

SO that being said, who has experience with the Summit Racing Headers??? I am planning on running fel pro gaskets, and throwing the ones included, but. How are they as in durability, and I will have them coated... 



EDIT: I forgot the link!  http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G9006/?rtype=10


And ill get some pics up of her!

Anyone with tips on how to spruce up the 350 TBI, please chime in. I want mild, not hot! And if there is someone who knows transmissions here. I need to PM you!!!


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## Naked Arborist (Aug 31, 2012)

GM mastermind here. At-least I used to be when this garbage came along lol.

Build a torque motor forget all that HP stuff. You want to drive it on pump gas right? Right!
Dump the exhaust air injection system.
Dump the flame arrester inside the air filter box.
Forget the headers they always leak and are just not worth the trouble. Port match a set of ram horn exhaust manifolds or just use stock E-bar type, ported at the dumps to take a bigger doughnut. They actually outflow a small Corvette ram horn. Not the big one.
Mandrel bent exhaust pipes are a must! 
Use a dual pattern cam and keep the lift down. Too much lift causes too many problems in the valve tran and tons of wear on the valve guides. 
Keep the exhaust at 2.5" pipes and buy a set of flow master mufflers or a cat back system.
Do yourself a favor and buy hi flow 2.5" or 3" cats, you get what you pay for there. 
The trans does not need much, a shift kit in the valve body to run a full auto set up is all you need.
Bigger air intake throttle body will be in order after the other mods are done. IMO I would not bother with a 2 port update. The air flow is minimal through a stock intake manifold.

This is about as far as you can go with a stock block (pistons+rods) and the sickening stock GM heads. The TB motors are turds in that department.

Good Luck


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## k5alive (Aug 31, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> GM mastermind here. At-least I used to be when this garbage came along lol.
> 
> Build a torque motor forget all that HP stuff. You want to drive it on pump gas right? Right!
> Dump the exhaust air injection system.
> ...









he pretty much nailed it. its a truck not a race car. Is it 4x4? 
I would add a high volume oil pump not high psi.
roller rockers are nice and inexpensive.
the electric exhaust cutouts are over rated and are prone to f**k up. go with the ones that are cable op.


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## axlr8 (Aug 31, 2012)

Dump the exhaust air injection system.

such as? the preheat tube thing mabob??! I took that off day one! 

Dump the flame arrester inside the air filter box.

Ill get on that! I believe what your saying is the plate just behind the air cleaner inlet???

Forget the headers they always leak and are just not worth the trouble. Port match a set of ram horn exhaust manifolds or just use stock E-bar type, ported at the dumps to take a bigger doughnut. They actually outflow a small Corvette ram horn. Not the big one.

Okay heres where im getting lost, ram horns....Explain??! I know the porting, and donut deal, but I dont understand the ram horn?

Mandrel bent exhaust pipes are a must!

Looking into a reputable exhaust shop to do cats and back... 

Use a dual pattern cam and keep the lift down. Too much lift causes too many problems in the valve tran and tons of wear on the valve guides. 

Okay, Im new to the cam procedure, I have cammed many a small 4 stroke, but no v8s yet!!!
Any specific brand you may prefer??! how about specs? The truck will mostly be a hot driver. Maybe once in a while a load? Not too heavy though, He is a throttle smasher though!

Keep the exhaust at 2.5" pipes and buy a set of flow master mufflers or a cat back system.

2.5 inch dual exhaust with turbo mufflers and or the flowmasters!

Do yourself a favor and buy hi flow 2.5" or 3" cats, you get what you pay for there.

will doo!

The trans does not need much, a shift kit in the valve body to run a full auto set up is all you need.

Trans needs some help!!! It will idle PERFECT in neutral and park, but drop it in any Gear, and the dang thing tends to stall out if no throttle is applied!
ideas?!

Bigger air intake throttle body will be in order after the other mods are done. IMO I would not bother with a 2 port update. The air flow is minimal through a stock intake manifold.

So your suggesting a new higher flowing intake, and throttle body? Edelbrock???



K5 Alive, you have a high flowing, low PSI pump in mind??? I will be probably getting a new pump anyhow!


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## Walt41 (Sep 1, 2012)

Call Summits tech line and they will set you up with dyno proven and matched components that will work together and not break the bank, just tell them what type of budget you have.


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## axlr8 (Sep 1, 2012)

ill give that a try, and then post my results up here! Like said above, I am actually looking for higher torque, I like the grunt, not the scream. So Ill ask them! When I do these internal changes, what do you guys wanna see? Pull the motor and trans and go through them both? Or tear down the motor, and clean it up while its all stripped down? I dont have any engine stands at the moment, but I plan on getting one. Is it smart to get the one that bolts to the motor, that rotates? I plan to run it on the stand anyways! (not too long though.

Im still in the works with this deal


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## samdweezel05 (Sep 1, 2012)

There are a thousand ways to do what you want. First thing to remember is that big fat long tube headers don't produce low end torque. This is a truck, not a dragster. If you want low end you need to be looking into some short tube, equal length headers. If the parts you buy don't work together, your pissing in the wind. Same with high rise intakes. They don't do low end, there for making power in higher RPM's.


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## axlr8 (Sep 4, 2012)

I cannot seem to get through to the summit tech center. Any more parts suggestions and helpful hints guys??! I need them!!!


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## axlr8 (Sep 11, 2012)

bumpittyy!


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## Walt41 (Sep 12, 2012)

If you call the toll free # during business hours there is an option for tech assistance


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 12, 2012)

Well first off, don't even think about running it on a high mount rotating engine stand. Bad move and you may get hurt when the motor flips over from torque. 
Go do your home work and study up on good sound engine combinations before starting this project!
Young guns always want to dive right in with out a true well thought out plan. Been there done that it never works out. I did not realize you wanted to pull the motor and tear it down. If that is the case just dump the heads and get new ones. A better idea would be to dump the whole motor and replace it with a good GM combination already put together. It cost more money to build a sound motor than to buy one been there done that. The only way to save money on a build is to know what you need, where to get it at a true discount and what needs to be inspected and machined before the build starts.



1 What is your budget?
2 this is not a lawnmower you need the right tools and some skills here
3 the motor will only support so much power before the bottom end completely fails
4 Oh one last thing, please give us a break down of the tools and measuring equipment that you have on hand now to perform all the necessary tasks you have set out to accomplish on this build.


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## treemandan (Sep 12, 2012)

Pour some gumout in the tank, wash and wax it, vaccum the inside real good, maybe a new seat cover and yer good to go.


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## Fedaburger (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm with Dan keep it simple fix what needs fixed. How many miles on the engine? At the most if it needs freshend up a valve job does wonders for an old 350.


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## axlr8 (Sep 16, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> Young guns always want to dive right in with out a true well thought out plan. Been there done that it never works out. I did not realize you wanted to pull the motor and tear it down. If that is the case just dump the heads and get new ones. A better idea would be to dump the whole motor and replace it with a good GM combination already put together. It cost more money to build a sound motor than to buy one been there done that. The only way to save money on a build is to know what you need, where to get it at a true discount and what needs to be inspected and machined before the build starts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Budget, Its slim. But that is not a problem. I can get the money If I need it. EVEN if It means i have to sell some stuff.

I know it isnt a lawnmower. I worked on them all summer, and got laid off. Sometimes they are as big of a ##### as anything can be.

I understand on the lower end... I have snapped a few 2 stroke sled cranks. I learned. And then I upgraded to a remachined crank, and had it fully professionally balanced, welded, and trued.

And the tools shouldnt be a problem. I dont own all the 'Specialtly tools...." but who does? I have a load of tools. If I cant accomplish it, I will buy it. I am trying to get INTO this hobby (engines/v8s) just like I got into sleds, saws, and everything 2 stroke..
If i need machining done.. heck. Ill have it done.


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## one.man.band (Sep 19, 2012)

remembering my '88 gmc sierra...350 TBI

sounds like a fun project, and your brother will love it!

thoughts:
stock TBI manifold is very sad. in my opinion, the stick in the mud of the motor.
remember that edelbrock used to make a better flowing one for a stock throttle body.

remember that my '90 caprice police 350 TBI model had a larger throttle body, maybe 1/8" or so on each opening. manifold looked similar to the one on my '88 truck.

could you convert over to use a carb and related carb manifold if possible?

rear end gear change might also help move things along if you are moving things higher in the motor rpm range.

fan clutch: might want to rid yourself of that mess.

luck
-omb


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## Patrick62 (Sep 19, 2012)

*My two cents worth*

I have to kinda agree with the last post. If you could set it up on a carburetor, you might be miles ahead of the TBI.

Headers? Go for it, part of the magic of headers isn't what they actually do, or not do. It is the fact that they are there. Do a dual exhaust and there ya go, the traditional american rumble from the pipes. Use good gaskets, and torque the bolts evenly and you won't have leakage problems *IF* the headers actually have flat flanges.

High torque RV cams are the way to go. They work pretty good, I got a couple of them running around here. Nice part is that they work with stock valves and springs. One of the nice things about a 350 is that the parts are cheap. A basic rebuild can be done for only a few hundred in parts.

Q-jet, torque cam, and free exhaust and the thing will really suprise ya.


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## axlr8 (Sep 20, 2012)

Okay here is some more Ideas.. I will probably be doing a box, and front clip off build. I am not willing to pull the cab at this time... im interested in the whole dual exhaust, and RV cam. I have a 318 with a RV cam and a 727 torqueflite behind it. Its just sitting... 

So the carb, and intake should be doable! I may have to switch some linkages and ditch some electronics... Not a big deal. you guys are suggesting the factory manifolds??? I could probably get a dual exhaust setup off of those? (mandrel bent, 2.5 inch pipe???)

And im contemplating switching the heads for some Vortec's.... Im open to any offers, and ideas!!! Thanks guys!!!


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## one.man.band (Sep 20, 2012)

some things to consider to stay within your budget: (before you start buying parts).

suggest at least doing a leak-down test to see if valves or rings are in need of service.

suggest to call a reputable machine shop in your area for a price on a valve job and/or re-ring. replacing a cam without one is a crap-shoot. any benefit from a cam change could be lost if valves or rings are not sealing properly. torque cams build lots of cylinder pressure.

trans: yours sound soft. maybe a torque converter issue. suggest bringing vehicle to a reputable trans shop. they could pressure check it and give you a good indication of it's condition, before more power is added.

$$ so far:
cam
lifters (a must)
valve job
timing set (chain or gears)
carb?
manifold?
headers
pipes muffler(s)
gaskets
trans work
possible torque converter
linkage
add $$ if you have to hone and re-ring

would guess that you would easily be in for $1500 to $2000 already.

good luck
-omb


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## axlr8 (Sep 21, 2012)

I will try to see what comes of my parts search guys.. I want to do it up right, and I think he enjoys the TBI... But, that leaves a narrow margin of what cam, and performace deals I can do to the engine.. It only flows so much...

Thanks for all the help so far! and any more info I can get on the trans Issue would be great! That seems to be our biggest problem at the moment!!! 

Nich


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## eric_271 (Sep 24, 2012)

axlr8 said:


> Okay here is some more Ideas.. I will probably be doing a box, and front clip off build. I am not willing to pull the cab at this time... im interested in the whole dual exhaust, and RV cam. I have a 318 with a RV cam and a 727 torqueflite behind it. Its just sitting...
> 
> So the carb, and intake should be doable! I may have to switch some linkages and ditch some electronics... Not a big deal. you guys are suggesting the factory manifolds??? I could probably get a dual exhaust setup off of those? (mandrel bent, 2.5 inch pipe???)
> 
> And im contemplating switching the heads for some Vortec's.... Im open to any offers, and ideas!!! Thanks guys!!!



EQ heads are the way to go and can be had on eBay for dirt cheap. I almost went with their vortec head but ended up going with their 180cc hi performance head which makes as much Tq and more hp. These heads are cast thicker and are not crack pron like the factory heads. Do as search on son of sledghammer.


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## eric_271 (Sep 24, 2012)

That's an article they did on a 350 with 10.1 compression that made 440 torque and 470 HP. These heads were cast using molds of ported raised runner ports. You can buy them for $155 each. I bought a pair for a 383build for my boat. They are beautiful heads. I talked to a well known porter before I bought them and he had nothing but good to say about them.


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 24, 2012)

Vortex GM type "after market heads". We use them on all the boats a towing type rigs. Several companies make them. They work great for large heavy vehicles and RVs also. The only other head I could recommend for your build would be Dart 190cc (or smaller) intake runners closed combustion chamber. They make several different sizes. You should be in the 52 to 64 cc range for the head combustion chamber. Works well with the dished piston in that motor. This brings static compression ratios in around 9.4-10.3 to 1. This is figuring in a stock block deck height and a 0.060 quench on the head. You may need to run thin head gaskets ie: 0.020-0.028 to get the squish down. Most gaskets are around 0.040-0.045. Buy the heads complete and assembled. 1.94 intakes and 1.6 exhaust should be very good for low end to mid range grunt. You will need to know what cam is going to be used before ordering the heads.

We need to back up here. We have jumped too far ahead already. "QUOTE"
Get a full leak down test done on the engine before taking it apart! "QUOTE" That was damn good advice! If the rings are gone you need to address that first. The pistons are junk IMHO. Your call, your motor. They will work if you keep the max RPM below 5,600. Anything higher and you might break a skirt.

Scrap the stock TBI nobody likes them when it comes to flow and if they say they do they don't know chit about SBC motors! The only other way to keep the stock computer is to install after market "Edelbroke rail injucktion". You will need to get a Jet chip for the tuneup setup. The only lose by scraping the TBI is cold starts and warm ups.

Dual plane intake is a must with fully independent runners. No plates, no hi rise BS and nothing but maybe, just maybe a dual plane phenolic spacer plate of 1" height, max!!! Not really needed in a well cooled engine. Plug the exhaust crossovers or get an Air-Gap intake.

Keep the carb small say 650 CFM or less promotes good drive-ability. Vacuum secondaries are a MUST for the auto trans. I'd recommended a Demon but, I dought that is in your budget.

GM type HEI ignition distributor. Excel coil and a MSD module will do well in it. The curve needs to be set via: fly weights and springs. A good starting point is 1,200 to 1,300 rpm start and be in at full-advance near 2,200 rpm. 8mm plug wires will do, carbon cores NO solid cores!

Weigh the truck before you take it apart. Something say around 5,000lb should do well with a dual pattern cam with intake duration around 276*-282* exhaust 288*-292*. The lift might run up to say a 0.475-0.484 before you get coil bind or spring stack up. I went and looked a stick up at Summit. This is about what you need Crower 00904 from Summit. You need to go with a 1.6-1 rocker on the exhaust side to make up the lift if you like a heavy breather, I do. Keeping the lift down under 0.500 the valve guides and such will last a lot longer. Less stress on all the moving parts. Definitely a trade off there. Be wise and check the valve to piston clearance and you may not have a problem. Oh BTW this is for a flat tappet hydro stick. I dought you want to make the move to a roller setup based on budget. If so go get a roller type block to start with. Remember these are "advertized numbers" and most are checked at 0.050 tappet lift. If your lost then you have a LOT of reading to do! This will give you a nice starting point for the cam duration. The exhaust duration matters more than the intake side. Keep the valve overlap low. A cam with 112* lobe separation angle or more should be good for 14-16 lbs of vacuum. Too much overlap defeats the whole purpose. Anything less with kill the power brakes, part throttle pulling power and economy.

The trans is or should be a 700R4. You can do the trans yourself if you have the time and a lot of patients. You will need to have the drum springs done at a local shop. They have the right spring compressor tool. You will need a few special tools. It will need a mild shift assist or shift kit. It should be rebuilt with a heavy duty spragg and 10 vane pump. Waffle clutches are another major improvement. A heavy duty sheet metal type extra-deep cooling pan with threw tubes and a nice 12,000-16,000lb external trans cooler should be used to cool the fluid. DO NOT by-pass the radiator cooler! Synthetic fluid is a major upgrade. The torque converter can be 11"or 12" your choice on that. Size is what sets the price there. Don't buy cheap saturday night special junk! Most of them do not have a lock up feature so, if you want to get decent economy... The stall speed should be right around 2,200-2,400 rpm. If the engine combo and carb is "right" the converter will work right, nuf said there.

The rear end is last so do it or don't. 3.42-3.73 gear with tall tires ( 315-375/75/R? ) and a *limited slip* differential should do the trick. Avoid a posi-traction center section, they are hell to drive in the rain and snow under an empty PU truck! You will need a WELL educated foot to drive one!!!

You should see between 14-16 MPG under "normal" overall driving conditions. Normal defined as: No secondaries (open four barrels), 55-60 hwy speeds and no smoky burnouts.

If you understand half of what I said then your well on your way to a nice build. You need to understand and absorb the rest before you buy chit. Screw up one part like the trans or the cam shaft and you F***ed the whole build.

This is the BASE LINE for your build. The hard part is getting all the DETAILS right.

"THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS!"
Get it right and it will run like a DEMON


OH BTW When you get it all done and running "right" it will NEVER hook-up :hmm3grin2orange:
That'sa whole nutha class...

Now who's got a better idea???
Bring the rep you know you want to...


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## axlr8 (Sep 25, 2012)

Heres my deal, I know it will be a ##### to hook up after a engine upgrade, but in the winters, we load our 4x4s with atleast 600lbs. as far back as we can get it... I am going to look into those heads, and the camshaft your suggesting. I will be going with hydraulic lifters, the rollers would be GREAT! but I dont have a steady income right now... think. Im 17. got laid off already.... I have it all under control, and i think it will go great! So, i will keep accepting ideas to get some TORQUE out of this 350. If I ditch the TBI, how can I connect the Computer so it functions right???


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## eric_271 (Sep 25, 2012)

axlr8 said:


> Heres my deal, I know it will be a ##### to hook up after a engine upgrade, but in the winters, we load our 4x4s with atleast 600lbs. as far back as we can get it... I am going to look into those heads, and the camshaft your suggesting. I will be going with hydraulic lifters, the rollers would be GREAT! but I dont have a steady income right now... think. Im 17. got laid off already.... I have it all under control, and i think it will go great! So, i will keep accepting ideas to get some TORQUE out of this 350. If I ditch the TBI, how can I connect the Computer so it functions right???



Race head services sells the exact same vortec head as eq and the same hi performance 180cc non vortec head which in fact works as well as the vortec head but is less detonation pron due to design improvements over the vortec head. Like I mentioned earlier look on eBay. They are a hi quality casting at an affordable price and make tons of torque down low where you want it.


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## Naked Arborist (Oct 13, 2012)

Hows the head hunting going?


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## axlr8 (Oct 25, 2012)

still looking and thinking about my options... i havent really bit the bullet yet. Its still a work in progress.


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## moondoggie (Jun 8, 2018)

axlr8 said:


> still looking and thinking about my options... i havent really bit the bullet yet. Its still a work in progress.


Well.... How did it turn out?


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