# Buying a Sawmill



## bower4311 (Jan 5, 2012)

So my dad has been pressuring me to put in money for a saw mill. He wants to buy the woodmizer for about 6000. We have 2 bobcat loaders and multiple tractors so lifting a log is no problem. He seems set on that saw mill. I am 19 and have a firewood business with my brother. Sold around 60 fc. this year. We do have access to some pretty good sized cherry and ash logs for nothing. Even some maple and other hardwood trees. Each year it changes, we can get trees from different places, some better than others. We have the means to pick them up and trailer them to the mill. Bottom line is we'll have access to some decent trees for free. I this a good idea to do? Would it be a lifetime machine and something worth considering?


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## hamish (Jan 5, 2012)

Defiantely a lifetime machine (with regular and proper maintenance), but you really need to consider why he wants one. Hardwood slabs are valuable, as are hardwood pickets etc....but the mst of them need to be kiln dried to really generate some revenue. If you, your father, friends an family have projects for rough cut lumber and you want to do soemthing different on the side then by all means go for it.

If the want of a mill by your father is part of a busness plan......well whats the plan.

If hes gonna be getting a mill because he wants one just for what ever reason (get out of the house, gave up chasing women needs somthing to keep his hands busy whatever) then by all means get one. Remeber that feeling you had when you fired up your first chain saw............well multiply it by about 1000%.


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## bower4311 (Jan 6, 2012)

Yeah I feel ya. He does all his own wood working, has a planer and anything else you'd ever need. He has a lot of wood that is air dried and wrapped in plastic sitting in our barn. He has quite a few huge cherry logs and such he wants cut up, but would rather get me into it as well, get his logs cut up and maybe do some more in the future since he is interested in it. But he just doesn't have the time for it and knows I will hence sharing the cost to own something instead of paying for logs to get cut up and get nothing but boards in return, rather have the capital. He says I have till the end of the month to decide, geez haha.

EDIT: He has no business intentions for it, but wants me to have the option for something in the future, especially with my interest in all of that kind of stuff. It would be split between my dad me and my brother, so ~$2000 a piece is not much of an investment, something we could probably pay for rather quickly, well in a lifetime standpoint quickly.


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## brookpederson (Jan 6, 2012)

a 2000 investment, go for it. You won't regret it, but if i have any advice it would be that drying the wood is the hardest part. You need a place to dry, a big place preferably cuz you will fill it up in a hurry let me tell you. Stacking and stickering are very important, take your time keep it level and have fun. Read Harvesting Urban Timber its a pretty good book and it covers alot of topics


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## bower4311 (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. We have a good amount of space for drying. We have a lot of open face barns and a very large building that is vacant which already has wood in it and almost an endless storage space for anything we'd ever do. My dad knows about drying wood so I will be able to learn from him.


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## hamish (Jan 6, 2012)

For a $2000 investment (haha initially) i would be allover it. You are young now, one day you may have a family, its reassuring to know that you can always mill a roof to put over there heads, regardless of the economy.


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## qbilder (Jan 6, 2012)

If you're 19, then i'm guessing your old man isn't very old, maybe mid 40's or so. He probably knows a lot more about you than you might think. If he is urging you to get a mill, then you would be wise to do it. He's young enough to be part of it and the time your brother & you will have with him will be worth far more than $2000. If you never make a dime back from your investment, the smile on his face as he's off-loading those cherry slabs will leave a permanent imprint on your soul. You'll see his pride in you & you'll know he's a happy man. That's a well spent $2G's. There's something primal about cutting a tree & milling it into lumber. It's strong, manly, self sufficient. No college degree or white collar office job can ever give you that same feeling. That's no bash on education or a good salary. Just that nothing is more satisfying to a man than performing the most manly of tasks, except maybe a father seeing his son(s) do it. Milling my first log was not unlike seeing my wife give birth. With a gigantic satisfied grin on my face, I think to myself, "I did that". And i'll never forget the way my old man grins every time he helps me milling. 

Get the mill. You'll make & spend $2000 over & over & over again. That's the thing about money. You can always get more. You'll never get time back with your dad & brother, no matter how much money you make. When you're older, you'll wish there was a way to buy more time with them but there isn't. So make it count now. Besides, milling is the squirrel's nuts fun :msp_w00t:


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## Burlhunter13 (Jan 6, 2012)

Go for it man!

I bought my mill when I was 18 with no real business plan for it. I just love woodworking, been doing it since I was a little boy carving with my dad. I dropped about $5000 for the mill and a box of band blades and just invested another $1000 into it this year. Im 22 now and have milled thousands of bdf of lumber (It gets hard to find places for it!). The past 2 years I have really started up portable milling for customers, and selling some of my lumber (slabs are easier for me to sell, because you cant go down to the local home depot and pick up a 30"wide 3"thick slab of hickory/walnut!) You can also resaw old barn beams and goofy figured woods/burls. Make sure you get yourself a small metal detector if your urban milling (I have a garret handheld and a minelab quattro for deep scan). Not a good feeling to hit a bolt! I scan the logs before loading them onto the mill, circle the spots with a lumber crayon and remove the bark, sometimes the nail is still visible or just below the surface. You can usually tell the nail depth with the metal detector when you have some practice. 

Just be ready for an addiction worse then heroine! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## bower4311 (Jan 7, 2012)

I think I'll take the advice and do it. There is something I just love about cutting up a tree, so right now its with my chainsaw into pieces for firewood, why not be able to hunk up some pieces into boards for a million other things. I did cut up an about 20-22" or so ash today for firewood haha, oh well.


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## Tim L (Jan 7, 2012)

Woodmizer is an excellent mill.I had a deposit on one before I bought my Turner.I had a problem with the salesman being off by 8 weeks on the delivery date so I went elsewhere,again no reflection on Woodmizer.Many companies make much less expensive mills that saw boards just fine. My friend bought a ripsaw brand that is powered by a 5hp tecumseh motor.It saws nice board but you have to push slowly to compensate for the small motor.The upside is it only cost $2500 (picked up) My mill has a 24 hp Honda motor and will push right through the log no problem.I paid $7200 for mine delivered.I have the electric headlift and bulldog jacks,trailer package etc....The point being if you dont need speed , do you need to spend the money? I have friends with Norwoods and Hudsons ,all are satisfied. It depends on what you want to do.Woodmizer is the King but do you want to pay a kings ransom?If you are handy there are kits to build your own,if thats an option.Good luck. My mill is picture in a nearby thread if you want to see it.I will say Bill Turner gives excellent customer service with his mills and he and I see each other at forestry expos and fairs from time to time. I would buy another but I think you would be fine getting the best bang for your buck with any brand. They all saw lumber.


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## bower4311 (Jan 7, 2012)

Yeah he's pretty much decided on that brand. That is his territory and he has been researching for probably 2 or 3 years haha. He just can't justify the money for how much time he will really have to use it. He seems to think that buying that brand will result in one that lasts a very long time, which could be true. I'm more concerned with how long it lasts. Woodmizer seems to be the brand that is kind like you said. And 2k is what I'll really be paying so may as well get a good one.


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## Tim L (Jan 7, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about longevity, they are all made of steel and they all use motors made by someone else. If you don't want to spend that much,don't.As I said above they all make lumber.Search the classifieds for a used one.Sometimes you can find one with little use for a lot less money.The track extensions can be pretty pricy on Woodmizer (I believe 11' is standard) most want 16' capacity or more.Perhaps an in expensive now and upgrade later. Turner has a fully hydraulic model that was more than I wanted to spend at the time but mine can be upgraded to it later.I would guess Woodmizer has the best re-sale but you pay more upfront.I wish you luck and believe it or not, it's a tremendous rush the first time you make a board, it still excies me. Good luck.


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## chaikwa (Jan 7, 2012)

Tim L said:


> Woodmizer is an excellent mill.I had a deposit on one before I bought my Turner.I had a problem with the salesman being off by 8 weeks on the delivery date so I went elsewhere,again no reflection on Woodmizer.


The 'salesman' aspect of Woodmizer is why I don't have one either. I know a LOT of people with Woodmizers and they're all happy with them. And being a welder/fabricator by trade, I've scrutinized them thoroughly in the past and they look well thought out and built. 

What turned me off on them was an incident at an Ag show here in Michigan. They had 3 mills set up and I wanted to see the 70 in operation. There was a sign somewhere near their area that stated a mill demonstration would be conducted at 11 AM, so at 11 I made sure I was there. At 11:30 I still hadn't seen any action on the mills, so I approached one of the guys in the tent to ask him if I could see the 70 run. His response; "Why don't you come back around 2 or 3 this afternoon and maybe we'll run a demo then. There aren't a lot of people here right now". I asked him, "You can't run the mill for one person? I guess you don't care if you sell mills or not!" He shrugged his shoulders and said, "It is what it is" got out of his chair and walked out of the tent towards the parking lot. I wasn't impressed. They had quite a few logs available to saw and there was another Woodmizer guy in the tent, so I don't know what the problem was, but that experience sticks in my mind like a needle under my fingernail.


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## Tim L (Jan 7, 2012)

In my case I was at a forestry expo in NH. I had been shopping for about a year and liked the Turner and the Woodmizer.Turner was a family run business and I told myself that if Bill Turner gets hit by a bus I'm SOL.I wanted to start sawing as soon as possible so I asked the Woodmizer guy how fast could he get me a mill.My neighbor who owns the fruit farm across the road (pictures in the other thread) and I heard the salesman say to me "I am doing a demo in Bedford in 3 weeks I'll bring it then". Based on that I gave him a $500 dollar cash deposit and said go ahead. I didn't have a specific day so at 2 1/2 weeks I called his office to find out what day he was coming. The secretary told me I wasn't scheduled for 8 more weeks.I said there must be a mistake, please put my salesman on.He was with a customer,they told me and I said please have him call me.As soon as I got off the phone with them I called the neighbor and he confirmed the three week delivery that we both heard.The salesman never called and each time I called them he was "unavailable".The fifth time I called he answered the phone. When asked for an explanation he started in with a story about how the shipping industry works. I told him I thought he was ducking me and didn't keep his word and we weren't going to do business.He was mad and told me he didn't make enough money on the smaller saws to be worth a trip to my house.No problem I said you won't have to,send back the deposit.He said I'd have to get it back from the main office in Indiana.(took six weeks).I called Bill Turner and he had a mill in my yard 4 weeks to the day from my call and I mailed him a deposit. I was sawing for two weeks before Woodmizer got me the deposit back. I e-mailed a complaint o the Indiana office and never got a response. It worked out because I love my mill and Bill Turner was great to do business with.


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## qbilder (Jan 8, 2012)

Sometimes a business gets too big for it's own good and becomes a bureaucracy that misses the simple purpose have having a business in the first place. At that point they lose the forest through the trees. Too bad. Hopefully your feedback went somewhere & made some difference.


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## Tim L (Jan 8, 2012)

The current economy may be a wake up for them. They have a very nice product but like I said earlier the Turner exceeded my expectations and I got more extras for the money.Friends with Norwoods,Hudson and Baker are all satisfied with theirs as well.Sawmills saw lumber and sometimes you don't need a Cadillac to go pick up a newspaper,you're just buying status. A lot of guys on here can build their own rigs or modify a entry level mill into a thing of fnction and beauty.


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## TraditionalTool (Jan 8, 2012)

Tim L said:


> A lot of guys on here can build their own rigs or modify a entry level mill into a thing of fnction and beauty.


True, but then a lot of folks go out and buy a Cadillac and don't make crap with it. It's not as much the sawmill as it is the craftsman, some craftsmen are great and can build fine furniture with a butter knife and a sanding block. More often than not, most have way more tools than they actually need.

OTOH, I see the most advice on buying sawmills from people that just got an entry level mill a couple months ago, and speak with the authority of a professional sawyer. This is why the inet is a dangerous place, be wary of who you take advice from. Even many of those people with entry level sawmills for a couple months, many of them haven't built crap with them and haven't cut up hardly anything with them, yet have the most advice to offer...caveat emptor...as they say...:msp_tongue:


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Just try to cut a strip of Oak 1/16" thick ,12" wide, and 16' long. I haven't seen any mill except a Woodmizer that can do it easily. If you are planning on sawing for hire, I would suggest getting full hydraulics for loading, and turning. I also have a Bobcat with a custom built grapple, but the hydraulics on the mill are faster and more precise for log handling. I use the Bocat just to move logs around the logyard and haul the slabs and lumber away from the mill. You may want to look for a used LT40HD rather than the LT10 for serious work. I know a used 40 will cost more than a new 10, but it is better for portable sawing, and it will hold value better if milling doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea.

I got a used Woodmizer back in 2003. The company sent me a customer ID card that had my mill Serial Number and series code, a nice welcome letter, and some useful info on milling. Not too bad, considering the mill was 15 years old! I find their replacement parts to be reasonably priced and the parts folks quite helpful. My mill is over 20 years old now and I can still get almost any part I might ever need without special ordering. Try doing that with a lot of other 20 year old equipment! I'm not sure why WM seems to miss the boat sometimes at these shows as I have seen it myself more than once.

You might check with your WM dealer or look online at sawmillexchange.com 

good luck,
Rick


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## Mahindra123 (Jan 24, 2012)

*Woodmizer*

Hi Folk - I'm a newbie and this is my first response. Give me some time to fill in my profile however as much of what I own is not pertinent here. I was literally shocked to hear what experiences some of you had with Woodmizer's salesman. I bought a LT30HD in 2000 from the factory in Indianapolis. They quoted me a lead time of 3 months and within a week of the deadline, they called to say that my machine was ready to pickup. I knew beforehand that a one day course, on my machine was the norm so with that in mind, I drove down to pickup my machine. Naturally, the first thing is the paperwork and monies exchanged and then off I went for a FULL day class. They covered sharpening your own blades, setting them correctly, even hands on adjustment of the drum switches. Everything right down to sawing a log on my new machine to familiarize myself with it. Incidentally, if a person buys a used Woodmizer, this same class is available to the new buyer at no cost. Transportation, meals, and lodging are at your own expense however. Nothing but "red carpet" service from the entire staff! Once you get it home, they offer a reasonably priced service where, depending on your machine's hours, they visit you onsite and readjust every componet that can be adjusted and replace parts that are about to fail historically for those hours on your machine. Parts from the factory are readily available online and usually ship out the same day. I originally had a friend of mine demo his machine for me and Woodmizer considers that a referral and he received a $400.00 credit in parts and blades credit. I now have 10,210 hours on my machine, lotsa blades that were worn out, and 2 new replacement Kohler engines.

Yes, definitely, the initial cost was higher than most of the later names. Would I buy a Woodmizer again? In a heartbeat! The machine from the start was well engineered, well thoughtout, and the full hydraulics spoiled me for sure. It all comes down to "just how hard do you want to work"?


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## chaikwa (Jan 24, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Just try to cut a strip of Oak 1/16" thick ,12" wide, and 16' long. I haven't seen any mill except a Woodmizer that can do it easily.


I have no experience with other mills, but I must be a dern good fabricator because my shop built Linn will do that, probably thinner. That's how I check it for accuracy from time to time to make sure nothing has come out of square/flat. I saw it thin enough to see thru it when you hold it up to the sun.



VA-Sawyer said:


> If you are planning on sawing for hire, I would suggest getting full hydraulics for loading, and turning.


I agree 150% with that statement! Doing everything manually is a real workout in the course of an 8 or 10 hour day, and it slows things down considerably. It's not bad, sawing only for myself, but check back with me in 10 years when I'm 60 and see if my opinion has changed!


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 24, 2012)

If you are cutting Oak that thin, then I would say you did good on building that saw. I have cut strips around .035" thick with about .005" variation along the length, and yes you could see light through them pretty good. I've tried thinner cuts, but they want to rip or split somewhere along the length cause of the grain. Those cuts are easy in Beech, Sycamore or Yellow Popular and quite hard to do in Hemlock.
I did some work with a guy that had a Hudson mill. The customer said he "wasn't sawing boards, but was making 'totem poles'". I kid you not, the 2 x stuff varied from about 3/4" to about 3" in thickness, sometimes in about 6" of length! 
Rick


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## chaikwa (Jan 25, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> If you are cutting Oak that thin, then I would say you did good on building that saw.


Yes, oak. I've done that in ash and maple too.



VA-Sawyer said:


> I did some work with a guy that had a Hudson mill. The customer said he "wasn't sawing boards, but was making 'totem poles'". I kid you not, the 2 x stuff varied from about 3/4" to about 3" in thickness, sometimes in about 6" of length! Rick


The only time I've had that happen is when I've sawn cottonwood or tulip poplar and the cant warps as I'm cutting it. The tension in that junk is unreal sometimes. But the variation has never been over 1/2" over 10 or so feet.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 25, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Just try to cut a strip of Oak 1/16" thick ,12" wide, and 16' long. I haven't seen any mill except a Woodmizer that can do it easily.
> Rick



My Norwood Lumbermate 2000 does it easily, no matter how long the log is,







If anyones Lumbermate won't also do it, all that mill needs is some adjusting to dial it in.

Rob


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## qbilder (Jan 25, 2012)

Sawyer Rob said:


> My Norwood Lumbermate 2000 does it easily, no matter how long the log is,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any band mill with a sharp blade that is parallel to the track can easily cut 1/16" veneer, regardless of brand model or make. It's not a question of "IF", but of "WHY"? Aside from very rare, precious, impossible to buy woods like a big birds eye hickory burl, there's no practical purpose for cutting so thin. Getting veneer from a band sawmill requires a drum or belt sander capable of sub-1/16" operation, and time. Aside from the very special pieces of wood, it would be much more cost effective to buy veneer that was cut on a peeler & requires no further processing.


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## chaikwa (Jan 25, 2012)

qbilder said:


> Any band mill with a sharp blade that is* parallel to the track *can easily cut 1/16" veneer, regardless of brand model or make.


Yes, and that is the key; "parallel to the track". I've seen one or two manufactured mills that are so far out it isn't funny. And even more home made units that can't even get close. Time and care need to be put into anything where there's an expectation of perfection, and a lot of people either 'don't get it' or are too impatient to try.



qbilder said:


> ... there's no practical purpose for cutting so thin.


I disagree. I do it all the time for a very good reason; I WANT to! But aside from that, it tells me that things are working the way I designed and expect them to. If they aren't, I can correct it before I end up with a lot of wavy lumber.


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## Talltom (Jan 25, 2012)

I hope you're flipping the cant 180 degrees before your test cut, otherwise you're only measuring blade run-out. A saw with little run-out will cut a thin slice of uniform thickness from a cant just cut on the same face whether it's parallel to the bed or not. Making a thin cut will actually make it harder to tell if the mill is cutting straight, since you can't check for twist in such a thin piece. If you flip the cant, you will see double the amount of variation and it will show in the thickness. A good way to check for a straight cut along the length of the mill is to edge two boards at the same time and butt the sawn edges - again, you will see twice the actual variation.


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## qbilder (Jan 25, 2012)

chaikwa said:


> Yes, and that is the key; "parallel to the track". I've seen one or two manufactured mills that are so far out it isn't funny. And even more home made units that can't even get close. Time and care need to be put into anything where there's an expectation of perfection, and a lot of people either 'don't get it' or are too impatient to try.
> 
> I disagree. I do it all the time for a very good reason; I WANT to! But aside from that, it tells me that things are working the way I designed and expect them to. If they aren't, I can correct it before I end up with a lot of wavy lumber.



The saw doesn't know how thick the board is. It either cuts straight or it doesn't. I guess I just don't understand why you'd need to cut a veneer to assure yourself the mill is cutting straight lumber. Just look at the lumber. 

The only sawmills I know of that can't cut 1/16" veneer is the big circle mills, and that's only because the cut pattern itself is 1/16" deep.


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## chaikwa (Jan 25, 2012)

Talltom said:


> I hope you're flipping the cant 180 degrees before your test cut...


Yes, I am. You've seen a picture of me, haven't you? I can assure you, I'm not really as stoopid as I look. REALLY!







qbilder said:


> The saw doesn't know how thick the board is. It either cuts straight or it doesn't. I guess I just don't understand why you'd need to cut a veneer to assure yourself the mill is cutting straight lumber. Just look at the lumber.


Yes, just look at the lumber... that could be thicker in the middle than on the ends. Or thicker on one side than the other. I'd rather find out something's amiss on a 1/16" thick board than on a 2" board. But like I said, I also do it because I want to. And can.

I've seen a few mills that can't cut a 1/16" slice no matter what you do to them. Heck, some of them have trouble keeping in spec on a 1" board.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 26, 2012)

qbilder said:


> It's not a question of "IF", but of "WHY"? Aside from very rare, precious, impossible to buy woods like a big birds eye hickory burl, there's no practical purpose for cutting so thin.



I do it because a customer ask me to do it, i don't care if it's "practical" or not. It's their logs, why should i care how they want them milled? It all pays the same...

Also, i have a friend who sometimes comes over and helps me, he likes to scroolsaw, so sometimes he ask me if i'll mill him some thin stock, so why not? It seems like a good deal for both of us to me. 






Rob


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## qbilder (Jan 26, 2012)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I do it because a customer ask me to do it, i don't care if it's "practical" or not. It's their logs, why should i care how they want them milled? It all pays the same...
> 
> Also, i have a friend who sometimes comes over and helps me, he likes to scroolsaw, so sometimes he ask me if i'll mill him some thin stock, so why not? It seems like a good deal for both of us to me.
> 
> ...



Customer orders are the very meaning of "practical". It makes you money.


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