# Rope pulling training?



## treeman82 (Dec 26, 2007)

Had a little boo-boo today while doing a job. Dropped a 40 foot white pine on a deck and did some damage. There was a rope set in the tree, and it held. I told my groundie who was to be pulling the tree over that I felt we should put the truck on it. Guy told me he had it. He and I have pulled over some BIG ones before with a bunch of back lean... actually we had pulled over a bunch of 90' tulips at this same property a few years back between the house and a sugar maple that the owner wants to save. No problems to speak of. I asked if he wanted to put a come-along on the line just for some extra pull. No, he had it. Well when the tree started to come over... it wound up about 30* to where I wanted it to go... puttig it on top of the deck.. wrecked a railing (just some 2x6PT got chipped) dented the gutter, and did some stupid other damage... wrecked a charcoal grill, and an expensive tarp. At least he was able to keep it off of the pool. 

I know it sounds dumb... but how can I go about teaching people how to pull on a rope without having to do it before EVERY job, and not having to flat out insult them? 

I mean somebody tells me to pull a rope and I put my weight into it... if I don't think I can do it... I'll tell them I don't think I can do it alone.


----------



## woodchux (Dec 26, 2007)

Dont let anyone else's laziness or overconfidence compromise your safety ... You make the call stick with you plan.


----------



## reachtreeservi (Dec 26, 2007)

I dunno, Treeman. Just about all of us have the same problem with our groundies. 
I can tell you, I rig alot of come-alongs, and cut and rig a lot of small peices. It's always better to err on the safe side.

Once they cause damage to a customers property, they lose the right to tell me anything. After that, I tell them everything. 
they want to argue, I take'm back to the house or their truck.

Still at the end of the day, everything that happens.... is the owners fault.

I know, I'm the owner.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 26, 2007)

How did he have hold of it?

What exactly went wrong?

How'd ya lose 30*? Loose the hinge?

I always bring the end of the rope around the old backside and wrap the end around the rope longways a couple of times, hang on, and use my whole body kinda like anchor man in a tug of war.

It's safe, if something were to go wrong I can just let go and it all comes apart. Otherwise it's pretty solid, haven't had a problem yet.

Tis true though, a man has to know his limitations. lesson learned. Glad to hear no one was hurt.


----------



## teamtree (Dec 26, 2007)

Teaching them is hard to do. I try to make it fool proof as much as possible and make it easy for them. I try to assure them they can do what (pulling hard) it takes rather than get there assurance. It is still tough once they start pulling and the tree starts to go in the wrong direction....it is all over but the crying...no one person can hold a moving tree. That is why I try to use a truck over a person any day...even if it takes extra rope.

I have to say that if you let him make the decision for you, then you have to take responsibility. Does he share in the profits? Losses?

Who was cutting the tree? Sounds like there may have been a problem with the hinge or set up. At any rate, if it is your job, it is your responsibility....why did you not *insist* on a truck or pulley?

Not trying to rag on you cause I have tried to blame stuff on my help many times but at the end of the day, it all comes back to the boss or owner.


----------



## clearance (Dec 26, 2007)

Maybe it was you, were your cuts good and accurate? 
Did you leave more holding wood on the off lean side to compensate? 
Did you leave enough holding wood in general? 
Was your undercut in the right direction to offset the lean? 

I would like to hear his story, maybe it differs from yours. In any case, no one was hurt, thats what really matters.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 26, 2007)

from what your telling us ,to me it sounds like its the cutters fault. if the tree had a back lean and it STIHL went in the direction it was pulled it must be the cutters fault. it don't matter what is pulling the tree over as long as it goes over with the pull,the drop will only be as accurate as its notch if done correctly. how the heck do you have 3000 posts and only 2 green rep points?:jawdrop:


----------



## Dadatwins (Dec 27, 2007)

A lot of variables, how high was the rope? how far away was the pull? did the puller slack off as the tree came over? gust of wind? bad notch? lot of questions to ask but they all have to be accounted for before the saw is started. If there is any question about a leaner I will always opt on the come-along or extra pull rope, even have some wedges ready. Sorry the flame but blaming the groundie for a bad pull sounds more like there was a bad plan from the start. You are the owner and should be prepared to take the extra steps for the 'just in case'. Glad no one was hurt.


----------



## Dadatwins (Dec 27, 2007)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I always bring the end of the rope around the old backside and wrap the end around the rope longways a couple of times, hang on, and use my whole body kinda like anchor man in a tug of war.
> 
> It's safe, if something were to go wrong I can just let go and it all comes apart. Otherwise it's pretty solid, haven't had a problem yet.



This is not safe in my opinion. You should never wrap any part of the rope around any part of your body even as an anchor when dealing with tree work. Have seen people get a whale of a rope burn and whiplash from the tree going the wrong way and the groundie spinning like a top trying to get away. Keep the rope in front of you hold it with both hands. keep all the extra rope in front of you also. If something goes wrong drop the rope and step back. Much safer IMHO.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Dec 27, 2007)

It sounds like you and your groundie have worked together for a while (maybe even years off and on) so you should know his tendencies. Does he always overstate his abilities? Does he have the judgement to decide whether he can handle the tree or need help? 

Whenever I'm grounding and have to pull a tree or top, I will usually put in a poor man's come along (or 3 to 1). I need all the help I can get.

And because I have some arthritis in my hands, I can't grip a rope that well (fingers wont bend properly) so I put a half hitch slip knot or figure 8 in the bight in the rope and pull against that.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 27, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> how the heck do you have 3000 posts and only 2 green rep points?:jawdrop:



LOL, as if that's some score of ability!  

If ya lost it a 30degrees then there's likely other factors at play here. 

What about wind, weighting, hinge, wing cuts, slope of land, decay etc.


----------



## newb (Dec 27, 2007)

If we have to pull over a tree, minimum fiddle block, but more often than not GRCS. I haven't had to many trees argue with the GRCS. Pete


----------



## treeman82 (Dec 27, 2007)

There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.

1) Not much hinge wood.
2) Back lean
3) Side lean - this concerned me the most.
4) Another pine to get around.

A truck would have pulled it right in there. 

I'm not gonna argue that this wasn't my fault... because as they say "The buck stops here" and anything that happens on my watch is my fault whether I was using the saw, or pulling the rope, or doing nothing. 

As for my guy... he doesn't care, and he did get paid for the day. In all honesty I should really just get rid of him. I don't know why I haven't already??? guy hit me 2 times last year (once in the head with a piece of brush which wasn't allowed to run, and shock loaded another piece.. I thought I broke a rib.). This year he gave me other troubles... the house yesterday, and then almost hit me a few months ago on another job with a top.


----------



## Dadatwins (Dec 27, 2007)

I am not a fan of pulling with a truck either, you can easily pull to hard and snap a tree or break a rope at the worst possible time. Ok to use it as an anchor point with a few pullies, but I really do not like using it as the pull device. Sure I have done it but with a very capable driver, clear view of the pull, and lot of communication. As for your groundie it sounds like some additional training is needed or time to start over. Don't wait until something serious happens, worse than some property damage, to realize this is not working out.


----------



## clearance (Dec 27, 2007)

treeman82 said:


> There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.
> 
> 1) Not much hinge wood.
> 2) Back lean
> ...


You stated out blaming the groundsman, called your thread "rope pullling school". Now you change your tune. I have cut down more pines than I can remember, most were pulled over by hand, a few with a Tirfor and a few with a truck. And your tree was only 40' tall, lame, very lame, it was your fault, I'll bet my left nut.


----------



## RedlineIt (Dec 27, 2007)

On a straight pull, I've never considered a groundies pulling ability as more than a really big wedge. On a straight pull, once it's going over, it is not up to the groundie to get it where I want, that control is down to my hinge.

Once the tree is coming over (thanks to my groundie) the top of the tree is falling at 32 feet per second per second acceleraton, minus air resistance, minus hinge friction. 

I'm no math genius, but I'm figuring the groundie has to take up something like 10' of rope per second to redirect a dinky 40' fall. I can't take up 10' of rope per second and achieve control, doubt that anyone can, so I would not put the groundie in a situation where success is not achievable.

Now, If I have set up a second line to swing the tree, that is different, and it is different in every situation, and I will instruct the ground crew every time.

But once the tree comes over, the pull line goes slack, don't blame the groundie for your bad hinge.


RedlineIt


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 27, 2007)

teamtree said:


> why did you not *insist* on a truck or pulley?



My thoughts eggzactically!

You are the boss, owner, final decision maker. If you are not comfortable with a situation you do it your way, if you let him make the choice...you made it anyways.

If somthing goes wrong on my job, I look at what I could have done to have made it go right. That is called responsibility. 

I'm in charge I take it. If you don't want it, work for someone else.

My one and only claim had a situation where several people could have done something to have made it work different. I was in charge, I did not communicate properly, I could have made calls that would have avoided a tree on a roof.

You made the call to rely on him, you will do different next time and build a mantra as to "steady pull, dont take any wraps on your hands or body, tie a knot if you do not have a good grip..."

I'm sure you will put some MA on the next reverse lean you cut.

Youll make him pay for the SNAFU for the next several years, I'm sure.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 27, 2007)

treeman82 said:


> There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.
> 
> 1) Not much hinge wood.
> 2) Back lean
> ...



These are the ones I like to video, pity you didn't.

Well, least you posted about it. We have no forensic pics either.

Did you use the over gunned technique and also leave a decent pie cut (triangular shaped hinge thicker on side opposite lean)?

If you lost it to the weighted side means the hinge broke unless you aimed the scarf there.

Sometimes one of the "con jobs" of felling a side leaner is setting the pull rope angle off a little to opposite the lean side. Like the ground guy is not pulling facing the hinge but around a little. Idea being to try and pull the tree a little off the lean and prevent it from falling onto the decking. I call it a con job for the reasons pointed out earlier, and that is once the tree commences the fall the pull rope goes slack anyway and it's all up to your skills and nature. However a properly tuned side rope is there working effectively for the entire fall. 

Off set pull ropes for side leaning trees is a con job and those of you doing it risk losing trees, of course size does count.


----------



## clearance (Dec 27, 2007)

After Treeman gets a good and well deserved beating here, Ekka steps in and introduces funny words, like scarf, gunning and pie. In the falling world, at least here it is only undercut, backcut and holding wood. 

Now, for the "con job", where else would you pull the rope from on a side leaning tree? Any place other than the side opposite the lean? I guess now, according to Ekka, I am one hell of a con man. Actually its about understanding through experience. When you have been part of crews, as a groundsman and the faller, of pulling over thousands of trees, you get an understanding. 

Like I said, I have cut down more pines than I can remember, some of them well over 80' and some bull pines (ponderosa), over 3' at the butt. The falling cuts, as always, are the key. A proper undercut, sufficient holding wood, and a proper backcut. Of course you leave more holding wood away from the lean, that is so basic. Con man Jim here, over and out.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 27, 2007)

Like I said, con job, and you have been getting conned for years and argue about it.


----------



## clearance (Dec 27, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Like I said, con job, and you have been getting conned for years and argue about it.



Conned means ripped off, scammed, swindled, etc. In this case it would mean trees falling where I do not want them to. So, I have not been conned, I just use skills that you are ignorant of. Stick to what you know.


----------



## oldirty (Dec 27, 2007)

as soon as it started going over did you stop cutting? 

i lost a top one time by not finishing the cut. she just broke on me because i got caught up in watching it go. got lucky on that one's landing spot. 1/2 a twist more and i wouldve owned a shed.


----------



## osb_mail (Dec 27, 2007)

*come a long*

I have a rope come along it might take 5 minutes tops to rig to another stump or tree . OK maybe ten if I had to go to the truck to get it . I can t see myself have anyone pull a tree by hand unless it is something real small or no anchor around .


----------



## Rftreeman (Dec 27, 2007)

sounds like you are once again putting blame on someone else or the groundie, if you where in charge then it is 100% your fault, you did not set up the fall like it should have been done, stop taking those cheap shortcuts and do it right from here on out before you or someone else gets hurt.


----------



## clearance (Dec 27, 2007)

osb_mail said:


> I have a rope come along it might take 5 minutes tops to rig to another stump or tree . OK maybe ten if I had to go to the truck to get it . I can t see myself have anyone pull a tree by hand unless it is something real small or no anchor around .



Wow, sheltered world you live in. Been there thousands of times, maybe a few hundred for truck pulls, few dozen for Tirfor pulls. When the rope is set high in a tree, you have tremendous power on it. If the tree has decent holding wood, you can do a lot by hand, even if it has somewhat of a sidelean. On trees with a substantial side lean, or those with not much of one but weak holding wood (cottonwoods, maples, etc) you need power and most of all speed, thats where a truck shines. Tirfors are only for pulling trees directly over backwards, unless they only have a small side lean and good holding wood, like Douglas fir.

If you not comfortable, climb up there and piece it down. I would rather yard big snotty trees hanging over the three phase down with a bull rope ran though redirect snatch blocks to a boom truck. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 27, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> This is not safe in my opinion. You should never wrap any part of the rope around any part of your body even as an anchor when dealing with tree work. Have seen people get a whale of a rope burn and whiplash from the tree going the wrong way and the groundie spinning like a top trying to get away. Keep the rope in front of you hold it with both hands. keep all the extra rope in front of you also. If something goes wrong drop the rope and step back. Much safer IMHO.



I knew someone would give me a good critique. 

I know what you're saying, and for the most part you're absolutely right.

I make it a practice not to bit off more than I can chew. The rope I use only just does come around my seat and wraps long ways along the pull rope in my hands a couple times, looks like a short fat twizler, it's the very end. I would never double wrap my body, wrap my hands, or leave excess rope in a position where I might get in trouble with it. My grip is the only thing helping to hold it all together. If I feel things not going my way all I have to do is let go and it's gone.

It's not a matter of ability to grip the rope, I just rather use my weight and legs to motivate in the critical moments. I'm not trying to pull a tree over with my upper body. I have more control, strength, and ability to apply tension with this method. 

Anything questionable or too large, we just break out the pulley.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 27, 2007)

clearance said:


> Wow, sheltered world you live in. Been there thousands of times, maybe a few hundred for truck pulls, few dozen for Tirfor pulls. When the rope is set high in a tree, you have tremendous power on it. If the tree has decent holding wood, you can do a lot by hand, even if it has somewhat of a sidelean. On trees with a substantial side lean, or those with not much of one but weak holding wood (cottonwoods, maples, etc) you need power and most of all speed, thats where a truck shines. Tirfors are only for pulling trees directly over backwards, unless they only have a small side lean and good holding wood, like Douglas fir.
> 
> If you not comfortable, climb up there and piece it down. I would rather yard big snotty trees hanging over the three phase down with a bull rope ran though redirect snatch blocks to a boom truck. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.



Clearance you are part correct a high point gives advantage
but; only if you are not so high that the angle of your pull goes
down. In other words too short of rope or not tying additional
rope to level your pull. However it is opposite with a large winch,
twenty feet is where I want my hookup as: a secure pull there and
usually no more needed. At that point it is easy for the winch to keep
the cable taunt as she starts to move, and ensure she comes the
way planned.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 27, 2007)

Ekka correct me if I am wrong; the side rope you are speaking of
is in addition to your method, or rope you are pulling with?
I have done that numerous times on questionable leaner's
and called it snubbing!


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 27, 2007)

Treeman we have all been there, ya got to think for everyone.
I wish I had a dollar for every time my ground men thought I took
the long road,I could build me a new house.
I have got to a point I make sure of the pull before I cut anything.


----------



## underwor (Dec 27, 2007)

I almost always tie the end of the rope to something solid, usually another tree. This eliminates one direction that it will go. Then I go up the rope a ways and pull to the side in the direction that I most want it to go. If the rope has all the slack out that I can get before putting in the back cut, this multiplies my 200# by a factor of about 10, according to the local math instructor. I know it also works good when I get the truck stuck and I am by myself. The longer the rope, the more mechanical advantage you have. 

PS. Once you move to ND this does not work as well to pull yourself out of ditches -- few trees or fence posts!!!


----------



## Ekka (Dec 27, 2007)

clearance said:


> I just use skills that you are ignorant of.



That would also include those spiking prune skills to wouldn't it? Along with the one handing and flip line only yeeeha we're way out in front here skills eh?

Line clearance has very low targets compared to residential, when you get out of ya diapers give it a go.  

Ropensaddle, yes, additional side rope, snubbing you call it.

*I wonder how many people have damaged their rotator cuff in their shoulder applying the con job?* It's one of the best ways to do it. See what happens is the tree starts to come and you are losing tension pulling. Then the tree appears to take a detour for the weighted/lean side, now with some slack in the rope you try to alter the direction of fall and give it a mighty yank (or Canadian), the ferocity of the yank is directly proportional to what the tree might hit if it continues on it's path. *But a few ton of tree going down at 9.8ms2 and you tugging on rope means a severe jarring will occur.
*
And the worst part is your arm and shoulder are in the worst possible position to take it. I bet right now there's a few reading this who know from experience what I am talking about. This is the second con job, well over looked by our Canadian line trimmer.

Dont kid yourself, once the tree is going and the pull line slack that's it, many a cutter will put pressure on here and demand you *PULL IT* but dont, it aint worth it.


----------



## gavin (Dec 28, 2007)

there's no way a guy on a rope can steer a tree down. since it didn't go over backwards, it should be safe to say he's off the hook. from the way its described, sounds like the falling cuts were off.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 28, 2007)

Gavin, you win the prize ... thank you.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 28, 2007)

treeman82 said:


> There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.
> 
> 1) Not much hinge wood.
> 2) Back lean
> ...



Sounds like your guy is just trying to keep you sharp..... 

What is not much hinge wood?

What was the ambient temperature? White pine gets especially brittle in the cold.


----------



## Rftreeman (Dec 28, 2007)

Ekka said:


> That would also include those spiking prune skills to wouldn't it? Along with the one handing and flip line only yeeeha we're way out in front here skills eh?
> 
> Line clearance has very low targets compared to residential, when you get out of ya diapers give it a go.


let me defend the line clearance people who might be reading this, just because that is what they (or I used to) do doesn't mean they are not trained in the skill of spike free climbing, I can tell you that we sent a many guys to the training for advanced arborist climbing many times, I myself never learned because I'm 300# so all my climbing now is removals but like I said, just because someone does line clearance doesn't make them an idiot to the other ways of climbing but when you add the power company down your ass to get it done in a hurry then that takes all the slower ways out of play. but have you ever really seen a tree that died as a result of spiking, I haven't.

I know I'll probably get a few guys tell me they could foot lock it faster.


----------



## clearance (Dec 28, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Line clearance has very low targets compared to residential,



And that folks, says it all, very low value targets. Yeah, the powerline ain't really worth that much, its just aluminium wire wrapped around a lonely steelcore. But then, I guess your life ain't worth much when you contact a high voltage powerline. And thats the thing a lot of other res. guys don't get, what other "target' kills you when you hit it? A house, a car, a boat, what?

Now Ekka, I blamed the guy here and his cuts, said it from the start. I never said that guys pulling the rope can change the direction, all I said was, that the rope should be pulled from the off lean side. Thats all.


----------



## Rftreeman (Dec 28, 2007)

well said clearance.


----------



## Industry (Dec 28, 2007)

clearance said:


> But then, I guess your life ain't worth much when you contact a high voltage powerline. And thats the thing a lot of other res. guys don't get, what other "target' kills you when you hit it? A house, a car, a boat, what?



I'll drink to that!


----------



## oldirty (Dec 28, 2007)

underwor said:


> I almost always tie the end of the rope to something solid, usually another tree. This eliminates one direction that it will go. Then I go up the rope a ways and pull to the side in the direction that I most want it to go. If the rope has all the slack out that I can get before putting in the back cut, this multiplies my 200# by a factor of about 10, according to the local math instructor. I know it also works good when I get the truck stuck and I am by myself. The longer the rope, the more mechanical advantage you have.
> 
> PS. Once you move to ND this does not work as well to pull yourself out of ditches -- few trees or fence posts!!!




thanks for the info man. much appreciated


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 28, 2007)

oldirty said:


> thanks for the info man. much appreciated



Yeah that is a nice method, you can use a french prussick to attatch or put a carabiner on the line before tensioning. I like to use a marlin-spike hitch in this.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 28, 2007)

clearance said:


> And that folks, says it all, very low value targets. Yeah, the powerline ain't really worth that much, its just aluminium wire wrapped around a lonely steelcore. But then, I guess your life ain't worth much when you contact a high voltage powerline. And thats the thing a lot of other res. guys don't get, what other "target' kills you when you hit it? A house, a car, a boat, what?
> 
> Now Ekka, I blamed the guy here and his cuts, said it from the start. I never said that guys pulling the rope can change the direction, all I said was, that the rope should be pulled from the off lean side. Thats all.



I called this post well in advance while discussing this thread with my wife, but didn't want to step in when I knew good and well that you'd be coming back with this post.

The only thing that I would have added is that I find myself in plenty of residential situations with all manner of power lines running around. I'm not stuck along some backwards ROW with a band of Arkansas border jumpers. In fact, I'll bet I spend more time with residential and private ROWs, than public. That often puts me in a position where I have the same targets as anyone in residential work might have, plus the lines.

When that's not enough fun...just add 1" ICE and how bout power lines that are up and down everywhere that may or may not be live/back fed by a HO’s generator.

And towards the end of a workday full of mixed weather groundpunding/bucketwork/climbing you meet the HO out in his front yard to ask about the generator that's running and he meets you with a rifle.

"Good Afternoon!"

Yeah, I think about going into residential work all the time, but I don't think I'd have as much fun. 

That isn't a crack at residential guys either BTW, I know they earn their rice bowl too. It's just different, but don't anybody tell me we don't have targets.

I enjoyed the rest of Ekka's post though, as I do many of his others, he's just wrong on this point.

I've been getting a kick outta watching you two go round and round. Diapers. Low targets. HA!

Nuts!


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 28, 2007)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I called this post well in advance while discussing this thread with my wife, but didn't want to step in when I knew good and well that you'd be coming back with this post.
> 
> The only thing that I would have added is that I find myself in plenty of residential situations with all manner of power lines running around. I'm not stuck along some backwards ROW with a band of Arkansas border jumpers. In fact, I'll bet I spend more time with residential and private ROWs, than public. That often puts me in a position where I have the same targets as anyone in residential work might have, plus the lines.
> 
> ...



Two biggest differences powerline work=low pay and yes I have 
cut around some very valuable targets doing line clearance in back
of houses! Even though "you guys" as I don't do low ball work for
the lines anymore, don't get paid for your work you're name is
really not on your work. Meaning if you fu, it is your line company
catching the heat not you!!!! They are also the financial party
responsible for you and any mistake you may make including
human life. Having said that; I am glad most times to be on the
other side as another difference is production requirements,
I remember office managers saying we are behind, when you
had been working as hard as anyone should be expected to.
Man I really don't miss that bs especially bid jobs,t&m not too
bad, but those bid jobs stunk and it never failed,they were
always in August!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 28, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Two biggest differences 1 powerline work=low pay and yes I have
> cut around some very valuable targets doing line clearance in back
> of houses! Even though "you guys" as I don't do low ball work for
> the lines anymore, don't get paid for your work you're name is
> ...



No question. Residential does have that appeal to me.

In a sense though, my name is on my work, yet not in the same sense currently, I agree.

I'm doing contracted work for my local co-op which is based just down the road. There is the potential for some good things to come from this account for me personally and professionally.

My goals are to ultimately have my name on the side of the truck(s), whether I do line/ROW clearance, residential, or both.

I'm not in this just as a worker putting in time whackin weeds.  

I farmed with my family for nearly 20 years till we got out while the getting was good, went trucking for 10 years, hazmat tanker mostly, now my interests have turned to being a working arborist whether with utilities or not.

I love this industry, so every tree to me is my signature. Before or after I go up in a tree, I'm usually dealing with a home or property owner about their tree(s) with the attention towards pleasing the co-op member.

Like I said, I'm not with a band of mobillies on some backwoods ROW. 

I've got irons in the fire so to speak.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 28, 2007)

Rftreeman said:


> let me defend the line clearance people who might be reading this, just because that is what they (or I used to) do doesn't mean they are not trained in the skill of spike free climbing, I can tell you that we sent a many guys to the training for advanced arborist climbing many times, I myself never learned because I'm 300# so all my climbing now is removals but like I said, just because someone does line clearance doesn't make them an idiot to the other ways of climbing but when you add the power company down your ass to get it done in a hurry then that takes all the slower ways out of play. but have you ever really seen a tree that died as a result of spiking, I haven't.
> 
> I know I'll probably get a few guys tell me they could foot lock it faster.


i agree 100%. i used to work line clearance in the state of Md and most of the work i/we did was 90% climbing. the state of Md requires a permit to remove and a license to trim. even no spiking trees is illegal we never ever went without spikes. the owner and the GF new it and so did all the the formans. the hooks are tollerated in line clearance because you have miles devided by days and would never make your quota on time. i agree footlocking is faster but far less energy efficent, there is no way i could ever footlock and hipthrust all:censored: day every day tree after tree after tree:jawdrop: . thats just nuckin futs!!!


----------



## clearance (Dec 28, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> there is no way i could ever footlock and hipthrust all:censored: day every day tree after tree after tree:jawdrop: . thats just nuckin futs!!!



Tell it WLL, thats the truth, couldn't have said it better myself. I can't even footlock or hipthrust, looks mighty painfull, and a little bit ghey. Production baby, that the name of the game, oh yeah, and not getting fried. 

Thanks for the support Rftree and Industry.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 28, 2007)

i want to add i have a 13 second footlock to 50ft:


----------



## Ekka (Dec 28, 2007)

clearance said:


> I can't even footlock or hipthrust, looks mighty painfull, and a little bit ghey.



Pretty ignorant eh?  

To cut around wires here, 1 day course.

To be an arborist, a few years.


----------



## clearance (Dec 28, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Pretty ignorant eh?
> 
> To cut around wires here, 1 day course.
> 
> To be an arborist, a few years.



One day course, wow. I take it all back, I bow down to you. 

The measly 1200 hours I worked in close proximety to energized power (12kv to 500kv), the government trade courses I took (6 weeks over two years), the written tests to get my trade certification, the tests I took at the utility so I could work on the system and take out permits in my name, why thats all meaningless. 

I wish I could have mastered the mighty knowledge you have by taking the same one day course.


----------



## oldirty (Dec 28, 2007)

clearance said:


> I can't even footlock or hipthrust, looks mighty painfull, and a little bit ghey.
> .



this might be the most offensive statement i have heard you make since i ahve been here man.

lol


----------



## Ekka (Dec 28, 2007)

I heard Canadians are a bit slow though. LOL


----------



## clearance (Dec 28, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Pretty ignorant eh?
> 
> To cut around wires here, 1 day course.
> 
> To be an arborist, a few years.



And another thing, you could be the best ISA dude of all time, the tree climbing champ, the Jedi master of all treework, but that doesn't even let you chip my brush around powerlines here. You actually need a little card showing you understand how to work around power, etc, for even that task, a card which only someone with my credentials can give you. 

I find that very amusing, ISA types chipping my brush, not that I wouldn't help them, but you have to admit, it kind of speaks to who is who, and who isn't, around power, anyways.


----------



## clearance (Dec 28, 2007)

oldirty said:


> this might be the most offensive statement i have heard you make since i ahve been here man.
> 
> lol



Sorry if I offended you OD.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 28, 2007)

clearance said:


> And another thing, you could be the best ISA dude of all time, the tree climbing champ, the Jedi master of all treework, but that doesn't even let you chip my brush around powerlines here.
> 
> I find that very amusing, ISA types chipping my brush



LOL, that is a good one!


----------



## jrietkerk (Dec 29, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> i want to add i have a 13 second footlock to 50ft:



you is the world record holder dude! Put it on video, or practice up and bring it to a jamboree. I think 13.8 seconds is the current Mark Chisolm record.


----------



## jrietkerk (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> And another thing, you could be the best ISA dude of all time, the tree climbing champ, the Jedi master of all treework, but that doesn't even let you chip my brush around powerlines here. You actually need a little card showing you understand how to work around power, etc, for even that task, a card which only someone with my credentials can give you.
> 
> I find that very amusing, ISA types chipping my brush, not that I wouldn't help them, but you have to admit, it kind of speaks to who is who, and who isn't, around power, anyways.



Have fun around power. I have mucho respect for you CUA's, however I don't see it both ways all the time. One day all this power will be underground - albeit much later than you will be retired. There will still be lots of big trees around that won't require spurs and directional falling after you're gone despite your mad skills. You are the masterblaster on this site in words at least - thanks for taking down dead trees over powerlines with your Jedi spurs and masterful ways with knotches. You can get a monkey to chip your brush for you, and you can come learn from my monkeys how to dig. Have you planted any trees that have lived lately? Get off your high horse and cut some slack for those who don't work all day around power and whose efforts work to offset the big holes in the urban forest that the power lines create. Are you with us or against us? Or do you just have a problem with Aussies? They's just good folks who are deprived of ice to play hockey on. . . .


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 29, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> Have fun around power. I have mucho respect for you CUA's, however I don't see it both ways all the time. One day all this power will be underground - albeit much later than you will be retired. There will still be lots of big trees around that won't require spurs and directional falling after you're gone despite your mad skills. You are the masterblaster on this site in words at least - thanks for taking down dead trees over powerlines with your Jedi spurs and masterful ways with knotches. You can get a monkey to chip your brush for you, and you can come learn from my monkeys how to dig. Have you planted any trees that have lived lately? Get off your high horse and cut some slack for those who don't work all day around power and whose efforts work to offset the big holes in the urban forest that the power lines create. Are you with us or against us? Or do you just have a problem with Aussies? They's just good folks who are deprived of ice to play hockey on. . . .



Good folks with no ice...LOL! I love it.

Just let em go at it, I'm learning alot about aussies and one day power courses, and canadian cards.

How much for the monkeys? I'll take em.


----------



## oldirty (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> Sorry if I offended you OD.



thats why i said "might" clearance and then had a little laugh about it.

no offense taken.

i am with you on the way you do your job. whatever it takes to get home at the end of the day with the lights on man. 

do it how you see fit.



oldirty


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> And another thing, you could be the best ISA dude of all time, the tree climbing champ, the Jedi master of all treework, but that doesn't even let you chip my brush around powerlines here. You actually need a little card showing you understand how to work around power, etc, for even that task, a card which only someone with my credentials can give you.
> 
> I find that very amusing, ISA types chipping my brush, not that I wouldn't help them, but you have to admit, it kind of speaks to who is who, and who isn't, around power, anyways.



Ahhhhhhhh but power is not very tree orientated,yes they teach
lateral trimming and some hold to standards. Most line clearance
personal would not know the differance in transperational pull,
anionic exchange capacity vrs path of least resistance!
For that matter if you came here to do what you are getting
line kills now for, you would be dragging brush and that is a fact.
Line clearance here would scare you to death friend,as you would
not understand how to perform with the line hot! I have told you
that in another thread and I am glad that they kill it for you there,
you would have a lot to learn here. Line clearance personal get
my respect I do admit,having spent 23 years clearing them I
understand their plight, especially in the states where they are
cleared with it on! I miss my comrades in line clearance at times,
but don't miss working for peanuts.


----------



## clearance (Dec 29, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> Have fun around power. I have mucho respect for you CUA's, however I don't see it both ways all the time. One day all this power will be underground - albeit much later than you will be retired. There will still be lots of big trees around that won't require spurs and directional falling after you're gone despite your mad skills. You are the masterblaster on this site in words at least - thanks for taking down dead trees over powerlines with your Jedi spurs and masterful ways with knotches. You can get a monkey to chip your brush for you, and you can come learn from my monkeys how to dig. Have you planted any trees that have lived lately? Get off your high horse and cut some slack for those who don't work all day around power and whose efforts work to offset the big holes in the urban forest that the power lines create. Are you with us or against us? Or do you just have a problem with Aussies? They's just good folks who are deprived of ice to play hockey on. . . .



As far as being the master, I am not, I stand on the shoulders of better CUAs., who taught me. As far as planting trees, never have, but I juvenile spaced for two years, building forests, does that count? Now there Jkerk, what is it that you do, for starters, do you actually work, or do you just tell people what to do? 

I see you are a municipal arborist, in that hotbed of treehugging doo-gooders, the David Anderson zone. Your statement "big holes in the urban forest that powerlines create" now thats a good one. Fact is, if transmission lines were not there the land would probably be developed, no trees, no little trees, no bushes, no nothing, just condos and parking lots. 

As far as powerlines all being put under ground, sure in new developments, because the developer pays for it. B.C. Hydro will not be putting lines underground on thier own because of the tremendous cost. The money would have to come from customers, B.C. Hydro would have to appear before the Utilities Commisssion to raise rates. Everyone in the province would scream about thier Hydro bill being doubled, including all the treehuggers. Won't happen. And futhermore, where are you going to dig this ditch for the underground line? Down the middle of the road? I think not, probably right in the same place but underground, hmmm, pretty hard on the roots, bye, bye trees. 

I have worked for a municipal arborists before on the mainland, the kind that plant trees under powerlines and other wonderfull things, so, I am predesposed to view them all with caution. You ask "are you with us or against us" Tell you what, I'm all for the right trees in the right places, and cutting down the bad trees, hows that?


----------



## joesawer (Dec 29, 2007)

Is this the same guy who was complaining, becouse his groundie could not pull a top through another tree, a few weeks back.
Pulling a top through another tree is going to get you hurt really bad, sooner than later.


jrietkerk
As for one day putting all of the power under ground- keep dreaming. For small developments it will happen. But until they come up with a super conductor the idea of running transmission power under ground is not economically viable. 
By the way have you ever seen an under ground ROW? How many trees are on it?


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 29, 2007)

joesawer said:


> Is this the same guy who was complaining, becouse his groundie could not pull a top through another tree, a few weeks back.
> Pulling a top through another tree is going to get you hurt really bad, sooner than later.
> 
> 
> ...



SHHHHHH! Don't burst his bubble...let him dream, even if he had forgotten about roots.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> As far as being the master, I am not, I stand on the shoulders of better CUAs., who taught me. As far as planting trees, never have, but I juvenile spaced for two years, building forests, does that count? Now there Jkerk, what is it that you do, for starters, do you actually work, or do you just tell people what to do?
> 
> I see you are a municipal arborist, in that hotbed of treehugging doo-gooders, the David Anderson zone. Your statement "big holes in the urban forest that powerlines create" now thats a good one. Fact is, if transmission lines were not there the land would probably be developed, no trees, no little trees, no bushes, no nothing, just condos and parking lots.
> 
> ...



Et tu brute?

Ya know, you're a real bummer 

The last thing we need is some rogue realist running around dropping trees on the delicate dreams of the utopiats.

:greenchainsaw: 

Live and let live, bro. What can possibly go wrong with a municipal arborist running about espousing his vision to the villagers?

Imagine. It's easy if you try. :monkey:


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> As far as being the master, I am not, I stand on the shoulders of better CUAs., who taught me. As far as planting trees, never have, but I juvenile spaced for two years, building forests, does that count? Now there Jkerk, what is it that you do, for starters, do you actually work, or do you just tell people what to do?
> 
> I see you are a municipal arborist, in that hotbed of treehugging doo-gooders, the David Anderson zone. Your statement "big holes in the urban forest that powerlines create" now thats a good one. Fact is, if transmission lines were not there the land would probably be developed, no trees, no little trees, no bushes, no nothing, just condos and parking lots.
> 
> ...


I will second that planting fast growers under lines, and it took
forty years to build above ground lines how they gonna get all those lines buried . Ever see underground line area, a few years of dead trees.
I do feel most arborists have basic tree selection down however,
so it may be homeowners or disgruntled employees like me planting
tulip poplars and sweetgums under them!


----------



## boo (Dec 29, 2007)

ever hear of bio barrier?

ever seen studies on electro magnetic fields,power lines,cancer?

ever been in fear for your life while clearing lines?

do you have kids?

as for rope training:
1st rule i use is > be sure of what you have then check it more.

maybe ones most valuable tool is "the ability to reason/figure".
most of the time it's math, sometimes it's not... go figure 
sometimes doing it is the easy part, sometimes knowing "what" to do is the easy part.


----------



## clearance (Dec 29, 2007)

boo said:


> ever hear of bio barrier?
> 
> ever seen studies on electro magnetic fields,power lines,cancer?
> 
> ...



Thanks for that Boo, how about a big thanks from you to all the utility treeguys and lineman out there that provide you with reliable electricity?

Just like those people that eat meat but could never kill, those who use garbage dumps, think that drug rehab facilities are neeed, just as long as its no where around them.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 29, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> you is the world record holder dude! Put it on video, or practice up and bring it to a jamboree. I think 13.8 seconds is the current Mark Chisolm record.


last time i checked, bragging rights werent gona pay my bills. there are hundreds of great climbers with no intrest in jamboree's or comp's. thanx but no thanx:angry2:


----------



## boo (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> Thanks for that Boo, how about a big thanks from you to all the utility treeguys and lineman out there that provide you with reliable electricity?
> 
> Just like those people that eat meat but could never kill, those who use garbage dumps, think that drug rehab facilities are neeed, just as long as its no where around them.



was deeper than that Clearance ...sorry
what are costs? 
the money for upkeep and maintenance, or the lives at risk doing it, or maybe even the people's lives who are using the power?
I'm not bashing you atall, really i mean to thank you, but i still wish there was no need for your services...... if i had power or not
edit: ohye, I'm also one of those who would rather hunt, fish, and grow my own food.
maybe live completely of the land..


----------



## clearance (Dec 29, 2007)

Thank you.


----------



## jrietkerk (Dec 29, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> last time i checked, bragging rights werent gona pay my bills. there are hundreds of great climbers with no intrest in jamboree's or comp's. thanx but no thanx:angry2:



I thought you were bragging with the extra post you put up telling of your time. Wasn't calling you on it, was just giving kudos. If you're not into the jamboree, why set up a 50ft and time yourself?


----------



## jrietkerk (Dec 29, 2007)

clearance said:


> As far as being the master, I am not, I stand on the shoulders of better CUAs., who taught me. As far as planting trees, never have, but I juvenile spaced for two years, building forests, does that count? Now there Jkerk, what is it that you do, for starters, do you actually work, or do you just tell people what to do?
> 
> I see you are a municipal arborist, in that hotbed of treehugging doo-gooders, the David Anderson zone. Your statement "big holes in the urban forest that powerlines create" now thats a good one. Fact is, if transmission lines were not there the land would probably be developed, no trees, no little trees, no bushes, no nothing, just condos and parking lots.
> 
> ...




i'm just saying we're all on the same team - not everyone with ISA certification is a nitwit, not all arborists working for municipalities are puppy-makers, just as not all CUA's make savage heading cuts. Hell, some of you might even have planted a tree or 2. (doesn't make you a treehugger either, don't worry) I think there might even be some Aussies who can skate, so turn down the anger dude.


----------



## clearance (Dec 29, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> i'm just saying we're all on the same team - not everyone with ISA certification is a nitwit, not all arborists working for municipalities are puppy-makers, just as not all CUA's make savage heading cuts. Hell, some of you might even have planted a tree or 2. (doesn't make you a treehugger either, don't worry) I think there might even be some Aussies who can skate, so turn down the anger dude.



Couldn't or wouldn't answer the questions I asked you, like do you actually do treework?, for example. First you said for me to get off my "high horse", now its "turn down the anger dude". I ain't on any horse, my experience is that if anyone is on a high horse it is ISA "dudes". Now, you got set straight on the underground nonsense how 'bout you quit telling me what to do, oh, I forgot, being an arborist, you can't help it.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 30, 2007)

jrietkerk said:


> I thought you were bragging with the extra post you put up telling of your time. Wasn't calling you on it, was just giving kudos. If you're not into the jamboree, why set up a 50ft and time yourself?


we had a money bet going on. i did win but not by much. Mark is one smooth climber!!!! speed comes with knowlage! i dont give a rats a$$ how fast ya can move. be safe, think twice, & move once!!!


----------



## Ekka (Dec 30, 2007)

Bugger all ice around here, ever. Cricket season now anyway.  

There was never any conclusive evidence as to power lines causing cancer, same with mobile phones. Lot of hogwash.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 30, 2007)

boo said:


> ever hear of bio barrier?



All natural sunscreen, right?



> ever seen studies on electro magnetic fields,power lines,cancer?



So that's why trees are attracted to the lines! I always knew it was something.



> ever been in fear for your life while clearing lines?



Define fear.



> do you have kids?



Yep, but they aren't for sale.



> as for rope training:
> 1st rule i use is > be sure of what you have then check it more.
> 
> maybe ones most valuable tool is "the ability to reason/figure".
> ...




Deep.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 30, 2007)

boo said:


> was deeper than that Clearance ...sorry
> what are costs?
> the money for upkeep and maintenance, or the lives at risk doing it, or maybe even the people's lives who are using the power?
> I'm not bashing you atall, really i mean to thank you, but i still wish there was no need for your services...... if i had power or not
> ...



Ever considered going Amish?

Boycott electricity today...except for your 5 hp screwdrivers.

Or, to live completely off the land and off the grid consider wind and solar power. Then you can really snub your nose at those barbaric powerlines and poles!


----------



## clearance (Dec 30, 2007)

Update, recieved a PM from jrietkerk this morning (Dec. 30). He called me cowardly, said he does climb, said all kinds of things about this site, being crappy, etc, and whined about me and my manner. I advised him to say what he has to say here, where everyone can see. By hiding, he has added to my generally negative view of ISA arborists. 

I really take issue with this, at this site I have got all kinds of abuse (and some support, thank you) for my views on utility work. I have exposed myself to retribution at work (by personally calling B.S. on a high ranking manager at our utility) to settle an arguement here. Tom Dunlap, of all people, went behind everyones back to report my views to this fellow, instead of being upfront with the fact he knows him. I have advised people about how to work safely around high voltage, which, after all is said and done, is the most important thing of all. 

So, again, if you have something to say, good or bad, stand up and say it.
Thank you/Jim


----------



## oldirty (Dec 30, 2007)

since ive been here youve been saying it the same way. as is, the way you see it. its one of the better point of views offered on this site about what it is you do in your realm of our industry. i respect it man. and by the way that was rather ballsy going to the top the way you did regarding the work practices of BC hydro. 



i would love to hear what jrietkerk has to say about this place.

i like this site man. but i dont think there are enough real tree guys here to really know who i am talking to and about what. 

and i seem to have put together a pretty good list of people who are ignoring me because everytime i hop into a thread it dies soon after. just because you dont like me doesnt mean yo ushould let a good thread die.

thats lady locker room BS right there.

i would love to have a running dialogue with someone on this site about why they might not like me. i think that would be fun. lol

anyway clearance. keep up with what it is you do. you are maintaining the power. do it how ever you gotta do it to get home on the daily. thats it. 

that and love what you do.

stay safe, look up and look out, and have some fun.


oldirty


----------



## woodchux (Dec 30, 2007)

Youre being too sensitive oldirty...threads dont die because you post... lol


----------



## clearance (Dec 30, 2007)

woodchux said:


> Youre being too sensitive oldirty...threads dont die because you post... lol



They die because Old Dirty backs me up and tells it the way it is, him and a few others. So, when its more than just me being the vioce of reason and common sense, those with opinions but lacking experience and knowledge around and about power are put in thier place and stop posting. 

It would be nice if those people would learn from us utility guys, I have learned from them, for example I no longer advocate spiking all trees. And so it is, perhaps the new year will bring more respect, I will try and temper my opinions about some people as well.


----------



## Dadatwins (Dec 30, 2007)

I vote this thread for most derailed this year, started out as a bad rope pulling groundie, that turned into a notch lesson, then over to 'who's the boss' and then the obligatory spikes vs. non, then to line clearance vs. non, then to ISA vs. non, had some footlocking times mixed into ice and hockey and now into who doesn't like who, nana-nana-nana, :spam: all we need now is a good old fashioned :food: fight.


----------



## oldirty (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> They die because Old Dirty .



its oldirty man.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> he has added to my generally negative view of ISA arborists.



Hey, don't lump us all together, just as all CUAs shouldn't be lumped together. We all come to the table with different skill sets and different attitudes.

I personally tend to spend lots of time with residents explaining why BC Hydro 'butchered' (their words not mine) their trees. After a while they seem to see that clearance around power lines is a necessity and that either they need to accept the pruning done by Hydro or the tree will have to be removed.

The ISA is a voluntary membership organization with aims to improve the quality of tree care, but it does not have the backing of right-to-title or right-to-practice legislation like many self regulating professions such as lawyers, doctors, engineers or professional foresters. As such, the standards to entry are going to be lower and broader.

I guess I've really derailed this discussion.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 30, 2007)

oldirty said:


> its oldirty man.


looks like oldirty killed another one :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> Update, recieved a PM from jrietkerk this morning (Dec. 30). He called me cowardly, said he does climb, said all kinds of things about this site, being crappy, etc, and whined about me and my manner. I advised him to say what he has to say here, where everyone can see. By hiding, he has added to my generally negative view of ISA arborists.
> 
> I really take issue with this, at this site I have got all kinds of abuse (and some support, thank you) for my views on utility work. I have exposed myself to retribution at work (by personally calling B.S. on a high ranking manager at our utility) to settle an arguement here. Tom Dunlap, of all people, went behind everyones back to report my views to this fellow, instead of being upfront with the fact he knows him. I have advised people about how to work safely around high voltage, which, after all is said and done, is the most important thing of all.
> 
> ...


Clearance you have always been standup in your posts,
even though I disagree sometimes with your views, I have never 
felt you to be cowardly. On the contrary spur threads and such
topics that bring you into scrutiny you have not been shy to relay
your feelings out in the open. I have not seen many utility trimmers
that last several years that are cowards. It takes a special breed
to go into the night to restore power in ice and wind.I have been 
there many times and can say; cowards do not cut the mustard.
Some of these arborists are not cowards either but the problem
as I see it is personalities! Don't let them get to ya friend your
job is important to many that may not even know you have helped
their lights stay on!


----------



## clearance (Dec 30, 2007)

BC WetCoast said:


> Hey, don't lump us all together, just as all CUAs shouldn't be lumped together. We all come to the table with different skill sets and different attitudes.
> 
> I personally tend to spend lots of time with residents explaining why BC Hydro 'butchered' (their words not mine) their trees. After a while they seem to see that clearance around power lines is a necessity and that either they need to accept the pruning done by Hydro or the tree will have to be removed.
> 
> ...



Thats why I used the word "generally". As I have stated here before, I know some ISA people, a few who are CUAs as well. But when it comes to powerline work, who is the expert, a CUA, or someone who just wrote a test and never had to actually work around high voltage for 1200 hours? It is a joke, ISA people who may have never even started a saw, telling CUAs how to do thier job. I would like them to show me sometime, but they are not allowed, by law, why? Becasue they are not qualified, and as such cannot be certified. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 30, 2007)

hay clearance keep up the good work man,and dont forget opinions are like buttholes, everyones got em.  hay oldirty dont be a foreman to a committee of care-bears, do what ya do best and get em done!!


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> Thats why I used the word "generally". As I have stated here before, I know some ISA people, a few who are CUAs as well. But when it comes to powerline work, who is the expert, a CUA, or someone who just wrote a test and never had to actually work around high voltage for 1200 hours? It is a joke, ISA people who may have never even started a saw, telling CUAs how to do thier job. I would like them to show me sometime, but they are not allowed, by law, why? Becasue they are not qualified, and as such cannot be certified. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


+2


----------



## BC WetCoast (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> Thats why I used the word "generally". As I have stated here before, I know some ISA people, a few who are CUAs as well. But when it comes to powerline work, who is the expert, a CUA, or someone who just wrote a test and never had to actually work around high voltage for 1200 hours? It is a joke, ISA people who may have never even started a saw, telling CUAs how to do thier job. I would like them to show me sometime, but they are not allowed, by law, why? Becasue they are not qualified, and as such cannot be certified. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.



This is a common argument that all junior professional people have to face. Whose more qualified, the senior nurse w/ 35 years or the MD resident, the construction superintendent or the junior field engineer etc etc etc?? 

It's a double edged sword for that junior professional. You are supposed to be in charge, that is the position and responsibility your organization has given you and you are accountable, but those with any brains will know they don't have the depth/breadth of knowledge as the senior workers on the job. It becomes a delicate act of diplomacy for the junior to get the work done the way he wants it without having the crew mutiny. Been there, done that and not always with the best results.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> Update, recieved a PM from jrietkerk this morning (Dec. 30). He called me cowardly, said he does climb, said all kinds of things about this site, being crappy, etc, and whined about me and my manner. I advised him to say what he has to say here, where everyone can see. By hiding, he has added to my generally negative view of ISA arborists.



Hey, dont know why this guy got up you bad but dont throw everyone into the negative basket ... you must realise that ISA is an American org and with that patriotism people feel they have some superiority in the arb world ... same as in the real world, they're mislead American's mate, that's all. They dont understand the effort required by others to gain their qualifications.

If you look carefully around the board you'll see the arguments between themselves about this and how many consider the ISA cert too easy to get.



clearance said:


> I really take issue with this, at this site I have got all kinds of abuse (and some support, thank you) for my views on utility work. I have exposed myself to retribution at work (by personally calling B.S. on a high ranking manager at our utility) to settle an arguement here. Tom Dunlap, of all people, went behind everyones back to report my views to this fellow, instead of being upfront with the fact he knows him. I have advised people about how to work safely around high voltage, which, after all is said and done, is the most important thing of all.
> 
> So, again, if you have something to say, good or bad, stand up and say it.
> Thank you/Jim



It's a shame Tom Dunlap did that, maybe it's his way of chest beating and trying to make himself look important at your expense. Around here we call them boot lickers and brown nosers, it's the way many try to create that control web ... boys club type of thing. A stand up guy would have kicked that bosses azz and asked him to get his act together not stab you in the back.

Clearance, you also have to look at the entertainment value, some of the stuff is just fun too.


----------



## boo (Dec 30, 2007)

some of these posts have been brilliant.... 
some may just be dumb...
mostly we do better than our politicians, we do something.
is that saying much?
I wonder how we would all get along on the job together ...
or maybe sitting around a campfire.... bring gloves and headgear
thread derailed maybe because the answer was too simple. 
during this thread I found Clearance started to sound better, and Ekka sounded worse....
can't clump all americans together, that is worse than saying Clearance is the same as JPS.
some see a bigger picture, how big does the picture get?


----------



## juststumps (Dec 30, 2007)

clearance,,, your one of the guys that keep the machine running.........the people who complain about how and why you do your job,,, change their tune,,, when they are sitting in the dark !!!!! keep up the good work!!!!!


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 31, 2007)

juststumps said:


> clearance,,, your one of the guys that keep the machine running.........the people who complain about how and why you do your job,,, change their tune,,, when they are sitting in the dark !!!!! keep up the good work!!!!!



You know that's right.

At ice storms you're like the greatest American hero, right along with the line crews. People go out of their way to stop you and tell you how they feel. When you're riding out first thing in the morning and the lights are out everywhere and you're listen to the radio and people are calling in with their plights and praying and thanking God for the crews, it touches you and motivates you....and then you stop and think: "Hey, where was this beautiful attitude when I stopped by to trim up or remove that tree that's got you knocked out?"

Ah well, I simply forgive that. 

Forgive them, for they know not what they do, you haven't time to dwell on it, it's time to address the task at hand.

I'll get my shot at those trees now, only now they're bringing me out coffee, cocoa, and whatnot.


----------



## logbutcher (Dec 31, 2007)

*Unarborist Speaks*

Interesting thread guys, appreciated for the insights.
Not an arborist , but 1000's of fallers over time  , plenty of close calls thru stupidity, BUT never blaming anyone except he-who-runs-the-show HWRTS.  
From the posts, many of you use rope to "pull" trees down where you want them. The message when I finally got it into the brain to learn to fell efficiently and correctly where I wanted the tree to fall, was : NO ropes. It was the Game of Logging GOL program. Instructors made you cut the mouth and hinge the right way, and use wedges ONLY to make a backleaner and/or side leaner go where you wanted. Plan the fall, plan the cuts, plan the wedgies ( no, not that  ), plan your escape. It works and has worked for mee since the GOL. 
Ropes work fine in climbing and belaying for a 200lb body dropping off a face. But no rope will take the tons of weight and moving ft-lbs in even a small 10" DBH falling wrong, or "pulling" it back . 
Explain.

JMNSHO:monkey:


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 31, 2007)

logbutcher said:


> Interesting thread guys, appreciated for the insights.
> Not an arborist , but 1000's of fallers over time  , plenty of close calls thru stupidity, BUT never blaming anyone except he-who-runs-the-show HWRTS.
> From the posts, many of you use rope to "pull" trees down where you want them. The message when I finally got it into the brain to learn to fell efficiently and correctly where I wanted the tree to fall, was : NO ropes. It was the Game of Logging GOL program. Instructors made you cut the mouth and hinge the right way, and use wedges ONLY to make a backleaner and/or side leaner go where you wanted. Plan the fall, plan the cuts, plan the wedgies ( no, not that  ), plan your escape. It works and has worked for mee since the GOL.
> Ropes work fine in climbing and belaying for a 200lb body dropping off a face. But no rope will take the tons of weight and moving ft-lbs in even a small 10" DBH falling wrong, or "pulling" it back .
> ...



It is called leverage,a high placed rope of adequate strength will
bring over the tree much safer than just a wedge! It takes less
pull at a high point to move the tree! Some ropes ratings these
days may surprise you as to their strength.


----------



## Dadatwins (Dec 31, 2007)

logbutcher said:


> Ropes work fine in climbing and belaying for a 200lb body dropping off a face. But no rope will take the tons of weight and moving ft-lbs in even a small 10" DBH falling wrong, or "pulling" it back .
> Explain.



No disrespect, fallers with wedges and jacks are a rare breed. But with modern ropes and some pullies & winches I can overcome lean, wind, rotted wood and a host of other variables when pulling over trees. With the use of a big shot I can do it all from the ground also. If I am dropping a tree in the woods there might be some room for error and I will use a wedge, but next to a $$$$ home or property, I will use all the rope and pullies available to make sure the tree goes just where I want it. JMHO


----------



## Rftreeman (Dec 31, 2007)

juststumps said:


> clearance,,, your one of the guys that keep the machine running.........the people who complain about how and why you do your job,,, change their tune,,, when they are sitting in the dark !!!!! keep up the good work!!!!!


not to mention that they are usually the first to complain about the power being off then once it's back on they complain that they cut to much to get the lines back up, can't win for losing.


----------



## moray (Dec 31, 2007)

logbutcher said:


> Ropes work fine in climbing and belaying for a 200lb body dropping off a face. But no rope will take the tons of weight and moving ft-lbs in even a small 10" DBH falling wrong, or "pulling" it back .
> Explain.



Don't you have this just backwards? Once the tree gets going, no wedge or triangular hinge is going to have much effect on the trajectory. But well beyond the point where they become useless, a side rope, tied up high, could still swing the tree substantially. The leverage is huge and applied over a long arc of the fall.


----------



## Ekka (Dec 31, 2007)

logbutcher said:


> From the posts, many of you use rope to "pull" trees down where you want them. The message when I finally got it into the brain to learn to fell efficiently and correctly where I wanted the tree to fall, was : NO ropes. It was the Game of Logging GOL program. Instructors made you cut the mouth and hinge the right way, and use wedges ONLY to make a backleaner and/or side leaner go where you wanted. Plan the fall, plan the cuts, plan the wedgies ( no, not that  ), plan your escape. It works and has worked for mee since the GOL.
> Ropes work fine in climbing and belaying for a 200lb body dropping off a face. But no rope will take the tons of weight and moving ft-lbs in even a small 10" DBH falling wrong, or "pulling" it back .
> Explain.
> 
> JMNSHO:monkey:



Have you seen this video?

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=38808

Like to have seen anyone hit that cone with wedges, jacks or otherwise.

One of the benefits of falling trees in the bush is the generosity of the direction you can take and low value targets if any. 

Head wind on a back leaner with a wedge when the tree is against a house? No thanks.


----------



## Rftreeman (Dec 31, 2007)

side rope, wedges or what ever, as long as it gets done safely then so be it, I have used ropes and wedges as well as a simple notch that is held on one side to drop leaner's, this is not rocket science, stop arguing about which method is better, people will use what ever method they are comfortable with regardless of what is posted here.


----------



## clearance (Dec 31, 2007)

Nice to be back on track, ropes and all that.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 31, 2007)

Rftreeman said:


> side rope, wedges or what ever, as long as it gets done safely then so be it, I have used ropes and wedges as well as a simple notch that is held on one side to drop leaner's, this is not rocket science, stop arguing about which method is better, people will use what ever method they are comfortable with regardless of what is posted here.



Yes and uninformed people felling with wedges and their poulan wildthing,
in high end target areas cause our insurance to go up. It is not rocket
science, but takes skill and knowledge to do without damage.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Dec 31, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Have you seen this video?
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=38808
> 
> ...



Nice shooting.


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 1, 2008)

Ekka said:


> Like to have seen anyone hit that cone with wedges, jacks or otherwise.
> *One of the benefits of falling trees in the bush is the generosity of the direction you can take and low value targets if any.
> Head wind on a back leaner with a wedge when the tree is against a house?* No thanks.



 True Ekka, BUT: got a head wind + back leaner against a house I "don't die on that hill." I retreat for another better day. And we CAN show you how to "hit that cone" . 




clearance said:


> Nice to be back on track, ropes and all that.



We didn't think that all you tree girls would get down and dirty so fast:monkey: .




moray said:


> Don't you have this just backwards? Once the tree gets going, no wedge or triangular hinge is going to have much effect on the trajectory. But well beyond the point where they become useless, a side rope, tied up high, could still swing the tree substantially. The leverage is huge and applied over a long arc of the fall.



In the woods --"...we don need no stinkin ropes...."  Plan the fall, plan the cuts, execute. Besides, I don't have any kind of certified whatever to put a rope up _____ a G.D. tree.  . My "swinging" is done elsewhere.  




ropensaddle said:


> Yes and *uninformed people felling with wedges and their poulan wildthing,*in high end target areas cause our insurance to go up. It is not rocket
> science, but takes skill and knowledge to do without damage.



Now girl, don't get your skirts caught. Hey, I'm not the enemy RPS.  Maybe it IS rocket science. That's why I'm asking...you need a D.S. 
....what's this about your insurance going up ? Take your Prozac and call me in the morning.


HAPPY NEW YEAR  

JMNSHO.


----------



## OLD CHIPMONK (Jan 1, 2008)

Apparently you & your ground guy get along or he wouldn't have been with you this long. Take some time for discussion before you attempt the impossible & work together . Have a better understanding & communicate more before the cutting begins. A good groundman & roper is hard to find. Fix your mistakes & get on with business. Just an old guys point of view.


----------



## oldirty (Jan 1, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> JMNSHO.



hey butchy. what does the JMN stand for? i know the SHO stands for Stupid Home Owner

shouldnt it be JASHO or "Just Another Stupid Home Owner" 

or better yet. JOMSHOTS = Just One of Many Stupid Home Owners on This Site.

just because you can get a saw to cut up firewood or cookies doesnt mean you know what your doing. peckerhead.


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 1, 2008)

oldirty said:


> hey butchy. what does the JMN stand for? i know the *SHO stands for Stupid Home Owner*
> shouldnt it be *JASHO or "Just Another Stupid Home Owner*"
> or better yet. *JOMSHOTS = Just One of Many Stupid Home Owners on This Site.*
> just because you can get a saw to cut up firewood or cookies doesnt mean you know what *your doing. peckerhead*.



Sweets, you do cut to the core. The subtlety of your intelligence does you good. :monkey: Peckerhead :censored: , huh ? Got some anger management problems ?:angry2: Butchy it is. 

And O.D. ( nice handle for D.E.A.  ), who exactly do you work for ? Those G.D. Hommies, they're everywhere. It is sad that you are not a SHO, or JASHO, or JOMSHOTS. Renting ? Homeless with a PC ?  

"JMNSHO" : if disclosed, you will have to be killed. Figure it out, or PM. 

Happy New Year ( in spite of the "peckerhead" :jester: )


----------



## oldirty (Jan 1, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> Happy New Year ( in spite of the "peckerhead" :jester: )




to you as well!


----------



## Ekka (Jan 1, 2008)

This is getting interesting now. opcorn:


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 1, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> True Ekka, BUT: got a head wind + back leaner against a house I "don't die on that hill." I retreat for another better day. And we CAN show you how to "hit that cone" .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Girl you say, better feel again son, no wait don't you are from ma.
and may go that way! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## clearance (Jan 1, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> Sweets, you do cut to the core. The subtlety of your intelligence does you good. :monkey: Peckerhead :censored: , huh ? Got some anger management problems ?:angry2: Butchy it is.
> 
> And O.D. ( nice handle for D.E.A.  ), who exactly do you work for ? Those G.D. Hommies, they're everywhere. It is sad that you are not a SHO, or JASHO, or JOMSHOTS. Renting ? Homeless with a PC ?
> 
> ...



Why the hate? Have you no civil words in your head?


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 1, 2008)

looks like oldirty is gonna kill another one :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 1, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> Sweets, you do cut to the core. The subtlety of your intelligence does you good. :monkey: Peckerhead :censored: , huh ? Got some anger management problems ?:angry2: Butchy it is.
> 
> And O.D. ( nice handle for D.E.A.  ), who exactly do you work for ? Those G.D. Hommies, they're everywhere. It is sad that you are not a SHO, or JASHO, or JOMSHOTS. Renting ? Homeless with a PC ?
> 
> ...


 WTF is all this crap? more strange lingo


----------



## OTG BOSTON (Jan 2, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> looks like oldirty is gonna kill another one :hmm3grin2orange:




the guy does have a way with the language.............lmmfwao

od, no use getting into a battle of wits with a mainer:taped:


----------



## oldirty (Jan 2, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> od, no use getting into a battle of wits with a mainer:taped:





is it similar to playing checkers alone? one way or another i am going to win? lol



what up OTG? you have a good holiday or what? good luck in 08 man.


----------



## OTG BOSTON (Jan 2, 2008)

oldirty said:


> is it similar to playing checkers alone? one way or another i am going to win? lol
> 
> 
> 
> what up OTG? you have a good holiday or what? good luck in 08 man.



you got it.

good holiday, nice to be back to work though. 08, I've already written 07 a bunch of times today


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2008)

oldirty said:


> is it similar to playing checkers alone? one way or another i am going to win? lol
> 
> 
> 
> what up OTG? you have a good holiday or what? good luck in 08 man.



I think checkers is a luck game and prefer chess, but hard to loose
playing alone!


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> the guy does have a way with the language.............lmmfwao
> 
> od, no use getting into a battle of wits with a mainer:taped:



Wits is wits,geography is not a factor in brains, trains , and automobiles!
Heck even ole cool hand luke knew how to use them when cornered!


----------



## OTG BOSTON (Jan 2, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Wits is wits,geography is not a factor in brains, trains , and automobiles!
> Heck even ole cool hand luke knew how to use them when cornered!



DAKWTFTGITAE? (does anyone know wtf this guy is talking about ever?)


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> DAKWTFTGITAE? (does anyone know wtf this guy is talking about ever?)



No:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 2, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> DAKWTFTGITAE? (does anyone know wtf this guy is talking about ever?)


man i though my spelling was bad, i cant even read that stuff!!! logbutcher/alphabutcher. 1000's of fellers i wonder what her counting skillz are like?:deadhorse: :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 2, 2008)

You girls are hard .....


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 2, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> You girls are hard .....


those aint girls:jawdrop: u seem  THE TRUTH IS OUT 



IF I GET ONE MORE INFRACTION!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Jan 2, 2008)

Down with dopes...let's talk ropes!


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 3, 2008)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Down with dopes...let's talk ropes!



I just got a new 3/4 inch stable braid hank! hows that?


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 3, 2008)

Whats with these boyz calling men girls? Over a thousand miles
away pretty lame in my book. Get a pop knot around here for
those sort of things


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 3, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Whats with these boyz calling men girls? Over a thousand miles
> away pretty lame in my book. Get a pop knot around here for
> those sort of things


pop knots round these parts are made with 13 rings and a twist:jawdrop:


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 3, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> pop knots round these parts are made with 13 rings and a twist:jawdrop:



Shhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell him he is closer to ya' all 
would that be made with 3 strand,stable braid,or hemp?


----------



## southsoundtree (Jan 5, 2008)

*rope pulling or rope puller*

Maasdam rope puller can pull much more than several guys and only takes one to operate it. 

Provided that you have a good anchor, be it the truck or otherwise, it is more predictable than petroleum power lean re-direction (pulling with the truck) and you don't need a driving path. 

Crank the handle smoothly to reduct the sway. It won't be as fast as pulling with the truck if you need to move something fast to swing it, so its not a replacement for the truck, but an addition to it. 

Whoever is paying the damage bills and insurance has the say. If the guy isn't willing to do what you need him to do, maybe he isn't the guy for the job. I test pull before cutting to see what kind of power the puller(s) are generating. 

Also, the more horizontal the rope angle the better. People don't always want to walk to the end of the rope (making the rope closer to horizontal), but it increasing pulling power.


----------



## joesawer (Jan 6, 2008)

treeman82 said:


> There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.
> 
> 1) Not much hinge wood.
> 2) Back lean
> ...



This was posted by treeman 82 11/11/07
I had a big piece that I was gonna blow out of this maple, but to get it where the guy running the show wanted it to go, it had to get past some limbs on a BIG hickory. So I put a rope in, not very high, but it should have been enough to get a little bit more power behind it coming down. Well I start cutting, and 3 guys are standing there "pulling". The piece starts to go a little bit, and I guess I cut a bit too far, plus they weren't pulling enough, if at all... so it kicked off the tree and came down butt heavy due to the hickory branches. When the top came down it came back towards me. 


Look at number 4. 
IMO the same thing keeps happening and it is not the groundies fault. And if it keeps happening we will be one climber less.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 6, 2008)

joesawer said:


> This was posted by treeman 82 11/11/07
> I had a big piece that I was gonna blow out of this maple, but to get it where the guy running the show wanted it to go, it had to get past some limbs on a BIG hickory. So I put a rope in, not very high, but it should have been enough to get a little bit more power behind it coming down. Well I start cutting, and 3 guys are standing there "pulling". The piece starts to go a little bit, and I guess I cut a bit too far, plus they weren't pulling enough, if at all... so it kicked off the tree and came down butt heavy due to the hickory branches. When the top came down it came back towards me.
> 
> 
> ...



Most that have spent many years in trees have had this happen!
If we lived we learned,I have had one do exactly the same but
did see it coming and was able to dodge the bullet!


----------



## Rftreeman (Jan 6, 2008)

joesawer said:


> Look at number 4.
> IMO the same thing keeps happening and it is not the groundies fault. And if it keeps happening we will be one climber less.


that's what I've been saying, if there is an object in the way, a rope isn't going to get the tree or top through that object. 

No offense to treeman 82 but going by his recent posts he sounds like an inexperienced young guy who likes to take short cuts and passes the buck when it' doesn't go right.

plain and simple, if you need to "GET AROUND SOMETHING" then a rope isn't the answer.


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 6, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Most that have spent many years in trees have had this happen!
> If we lived we learned,I have had one do exactly the same but
> did see it coming and was able to dodge the bullet!


like rope i have spent many yrs in the tree. i read em like a book. iv dodged many bullets in my day but as i get older its been a cease fire for the most part.if this kind of crap is happening to you use your brain!! get up in it get out on it and do what it takes to keep you from dodging bullets!!!! you playing rullet is gona get ya!!! ill take em as big as i can and fit em where i can git em, but sometimes small is all i can take to make it safe. ill cut tree in half or handle pieces from the top. i will not play rullet. rullet is not crazy its just plain stupid!! there is a big difference.


----------



## FanOFatherNash (Feb 23, 2011)

sounds like you were trying to take the a short cut, went bad, and so you want to find somone to blame.


----------



## NCTREE (Feb 23, 2011)

It could of been a number of things. Was the notch deep enough to allow enough length on the hinge, maybe he should of cut it lower on the stump to acomplish this. If it had back and side lean the hinge length should of been higher than the 80%/dia even closer to 100% Cutting lower on the stump allows this without cutting the notch depth deeper than 1/3 the dia. because of the butt swell. This is more important than the over all thickness of the hinge although it should still be in the 10% range. When the tree starts lifting most of the hinge thickness breaks off, only a small (maybe a 1/4") portion stays intact. The open face notch should have been used to allow the tree longer control to the ground not a thicker hinge.


----------



## flushcut (Feb 23, 2011)

FanOFatherNash said:


> sounds like you were trying to take the a short cut, went bad, and so you want to find somone to blame.


 
That and the fact it is almost a five year old thread.


----------

