# Ouch! tree partially cut in error...



## EdK (Jun 17, 2008)

I have a 14-16" dbh red oak that received a saw cut about 12" from the ground - just above most of the root flare and about 20% through the diameter 

1) Can a healthy tree survive this kind of damage?
2) What is the best way of helping it along?

Thanks, Ed


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 17, 2008)

ouch is right!!! 

that saw must have really been going when someone nicked it......... for a saw to go 3" in to something like that is a very bad deal. unless this cut was placed there purposefully, just unwanted.

if that was you, you should be more careful.

if that was a contractor, dont hire him again.

post pics, the tree may be able to come out of it, but i dont know.

Edit: try sealling off the wound with some black duct tape. do not fill the wound. the tree has to grow back into that cut. other than that i dont know, ive never cut a tree like that


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## arbor pro (Jun 17, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> Edit: try sealling off the wound with some black duct tape.



Ok, you've captured my attention with your suggestion of using duct tape to seal off the wound. I really want to know what arboriculture book, training manual, educational seminar, college professor or back alley wino suggested that you use black duct tape to help a tree heal from a 3" cut?

Maybe it was the same company that markets black pruning paint...? 

I was going to suggest filling the wound with molten metal but then, that would contradict your advice of not filling the wound so, maybe he should just try spraying some Windex on it. I've heard that does wonders with various human ailments...


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## arbor pro (Jun 17, 2008)

Ok, now that I've given my smart*ss response to the question at hand, here's my technical response:

Some trees are ring-porous, some are diffuse-porous. This refers to the structure of the vascular system. 

The vascular system of diffuse-porous trees (such as a birch) is characterized by vessels spread evenly throughout the sapwood. These vessels are produced regularly during the growing season. Diffuse-porous systems distribute nutrients evenly throughout the vascular system which means that if you cut into one side a few inches, the branches on the cut side of the treee might still get nutrients from the vessels on the other sides of the tree. The nutrient flow is 'diffused' throughout the vascular tissue.

The vessels of a ring-porous tree (such as a red oak) are generally larger and concentrated in the outermost layer of sapwood. These vessels are produced early in the season. This is significant because it affects a tree's susceptibility to vascular damage. Ring-porous vascular systems are very efficient, but are much more vulnerable to blockage. The elm's vulnerability to Dutch elm disease is an case in point. 

In the case of this Red Oak, you may end up losing branches on the cut side of the tree if the vascular tissue has been completely severed. I say MAY - this is not a guarantee so don't go out and cut it down based off of my projection alone. If the tree were a larger dbh, I would think this cut to be less of an issue; however, since the cut went about 1/5 of the way in, it is very probable that the vascular tissue on that side of the tree is not going to be able to transport nutrients. The cut tissue will never heal. Trees are NOT like people. The tree will try to 'wall' off the damage and cover up ('heal') around the wound but, the cut portion will likely never transfer nutrients again.

Unless the tree is a hazard now because of the loss of structural holding wood, it's longevity outlook is going to be a 'wait and see' approach. There's really nothing you can do about it now. If the duct tape idea makes you feel better, go for it but, I'd use green tape, not black - green is prettier. 

This little animation is for whomever made the cut...


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## EdK (Jun 17, 2008)

Maybe this explanation will help a little. This tree, nice as it is, is not some beauty providing shade for a landscaped yard. It is alongside a 1/2 mile long driveway. A lot of trees were being cut in an effort to thin the density of trees along each side so we're talking a mile long strip (1/2 mi each side) about 20-30 feet back. An concious effort was being made to take "lesser species" however yes a mistake was made. This was realized when cutting the notch. It was not finished. It would be nice to save this tree but not the end of the world if it was lost.

Thanks for your replies


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## arbor pro (Jun 17, 2008)

sounds like there's no hazzard in leaving it so, although you might lose a few branches, it likely won't die from the cut. Might as well wait and see.

Glad to hear it's not a front yard specimen.


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## mantis (Jun 17, 2008)

treat it with pruning spray


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## EdK (Jun 17, 2008)

mantis said:


> treat it with pruning spray



My only thoughts (novice) are to do something like that. Seems a little hard to do with the two faces of the cut perpendicular to the .375" saw kerf. Someone off this forum had already suggested packing it with grafting wax.

I don't see any imminent hazard from a 80% intact healthy red oak along a drive - as long as it remains so of course.

Again, thanks for the replies thus far.


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## mantis (Jun 17, 2008)

EdK said:


> My only thoughts (novice) are to do something like that. Seems a little hard to do with the two faces of the cut perpendicular to the .375" saw kerf. Someone off this forum had already suggested packing it with grafting wax.
> 
> I don't see any imminent hazard from a 80% intact healthy red oak along a drive - as long as it remains so of course.
> 
> Again, thanks for the replies thus far.



the main thing you want to do is "seal" the tree and stop insects from making a home there.the tree, if healthy should take care of the rest.if not there is really nothing you can do except finish the job


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 17, 2008)

arbor pro said:


> Ok, you've captured my attention with your suggestion of using duct tape to seal off the wound. I really want to know what arboriculture book, training manual, educational seminar, college professor or back alley wino suggested that you use black duct tape to help a tree heal from a 3" cut?
> 
> Maybe it was the same company that markets black pruning paint...?
> 
> I was going to suggest filling the wound with molten metal but then, that would contradict your advice of not filling the wound so, maybe he should just try spraying some Windex on it. I've heard that does wonders with various human ailments...



mantis said it well



mantis said:


> the main thing you want to do is "seal" the tree and stop insects from making a home there.



if it is filled, instead of sealed, it will create a weak spot later in the trees life. the tree needs to naturally fill a gap like that. and i dont believe in using chemically based substances on tree wounds. i use gorilla tape for lots of stuff around the job, it is 6 times stronger than duct tape, stickier, and black.


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## EdK (Jun 18, 2008)

I well realize it is not a "tree care product" but is there any reason not to use latex caulking? A bead to fill the cut vertically but with as little depth as possible would seem to be a better solution than pruning spray. Otherwise I will take the recommendation to apply some super duty tape. Tape will be a little tricky to get to conform to the irregularities of the oak bark but I would do my best.

Ed


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 18, 2008)

arbor pro said:


> Ok, you've captured my attention with your suggestion of using duct tape to seal off the wound. I really want to know what arboriculture book, training manual, educational seminar, college professor or back alley wino suggested that you use black duct tape to help a tree heal from a 3" cut?
> 
> Maybe it was the same company that markets black pruning paint...?
> 
> I was going to suggest filling the wound with molten metal but then, that would contradict your advice of not filling the wound so, maybe he should just try spraying some Windex on it. I've heard that does wonders with various human ailments...



good one time to remove it tom trees


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 18, 2008)

no dont remove it yet. of course pics woul help. the duct tape i use should conform well to any bark with flakes 1/4 inch or less. if bigger than that, i hate to say it but use the spray. as ive said before, i dont like putting chemicals in trees, but something made for trees sounds alot better to me than any sprayfoam or caulking


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## arbor pro (Jun 18, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> no dont remove it yet. of course pics woul help. the duct tape i use should conform well to any bark with flakes 1/4 inch or less. if bigger than that, i hate to say it but use the spray. as ive said before, i dont like putting chemicals in trees, but something made for trees sounds alot better to me than any sprayfoam or caulking



ClimbinArbor, you're on top of your game. I don't deal with much red oak in my area so oak wilt wasn't something I was thinking about. I was thinking more in line of insect damage prevention in which case treatment of the wound really doesn't matter for an oak. But, for preventing wilt, painting is probably worth trying. So, I'm going to concede and agree that in two, maybe three instances should a pruning sealer be used. In all other instances, it is absolutely unnecessary and could even be harmful to the tree. The two primary instances according to research by the late Dr Alex Shigo are:

1) when American Elm has to be pruned during the active period of the dutch elm beetle which is typically June/July and

2) to protect oaks from getting wilt when pruned in spring.

The third possible instance is when a birch has been pruned in June/July - this is to prevent borers. 

So, there you have it - the rule of thumb for when to 'seal' off a wound and when to leave it alone from the "tree man" himself (Shigo that is, not me).


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 18, 2008)

thank you, dont mind getting flamed if im wrong........


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 18, 2008)

course thats yet to happen lmao


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## arbor pro (Jun 18, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> thank you, dont mind getting flamed if im wrong........course thats yet to happen lmao



me neither. I just find it necessary to 'clarify' my advice from time to time...


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## treesurgeon (Jun 18, 2008)

cover wound for two weeks with any tape or plastic, then remove it and leave wound. this will speed up the forming of the callas tissues. leaving it sealed might cause more problems like excessive moisture and rot spreading.


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## ATS/TexasTree (Jun 19, 2008)

ArborPro had it right - there is very little if anything you can do that will appreciably help a bad situation. 

"Sealing it?" - The tree seals its own wounds from within - according to Al Shigo the oxidation of these sealing/ protecting phenol based compounds happens within nanoseconds. 

There has been some research that suggests that wound callous forms quicker in the absence of light - then wrapping it with a paper tape might help to some small degree. Paper tape breathes better than anything else suggested. 

In reality, the wound will cause a large necrotic area to form above the wound and the loss of both limbs above ground and even roots below ground is likely. 

The size of the tree, the size of the wound, and a possible target are all considerations as to whether or not this tree remains in the landscape. The decay that will set in will leave the tree vulnerable to fall opposite the wound. 

Red oaks are notoriously poor compartmentalizers. Wounds of this type (over time - a decade or more) may eventually involve the entire diameter of the trunk the day it was cut.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 19, 2008)

ATS/TexasTree said:


> ArborPro had it right - there is very little if anything you can do that will appreciably help a bad situation.
> 
> "Sealing it?" - The tree seals its own wounds from within - according to Al Shigo the oxidation of these sealing/ protecting phenol based compounds happens within nanoseconds.
> 
> ...



i like the paper tape idea, you could also use cotton on thick barks.

the tree should be fine wiht minimal dieback


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## ATS/TexasTree (Jun 19, 2008)

arbor pro said:


> The vessels of a ring-porous tree (such as a red oak) are generally larger and concentrated in the outermost layer of sapwood. These vessels are produced early in the season. This is significant because it affects a tree's susceptibility to vascular damage. Ring-porous vascular systems are very efficient, but are much more vulnerable to blockage. The elm's vulnerability to Dutch elm disease is an case in point.
> 
> In the case of this Red Oak, you may end up losing branches on the cut side of the tree if the vascular tissue has been completely severed. I say MAY - this is not a guarantee so don't go out and cut it down based off of my projection alone. If the tree were a larger dbh, I would think this cut to be less of an issue; however, since the cut went about 1/5 of the way in, it is very probable that the vascular tissue on that side of the tree is not going to be able to transport nutrients. The cut tissue will never heal. Trees are NOT like people. The tree will try to 'wall' off the damage and cover up ('heal') around the wound but, the cut portion will likely never transfer nutrients again.



As Arborpro stated above - a ring porous tree is likely to suffer significantly from this type of wound. Sealing of wounds is not the regeneration of vascular tissue. Water conducting vessels cut won't reconnect. 

I don't think the tree will be "fine." I've seen too much damage and death in red oaks with just a few roots cut. 

Because they are ring-porous, I've seen die back in the crown of a red oak in as little as a few hours on a hot summer day with a water stressed tree. 

It scares the hell out of the trenching contractors when it happens and lets lay people understand that cutting roots (or trunks) can have dire consequences. 

I sometimes wish all trees were ring porous so contractors and homeowners alike would respect trees and tree roots a little more.

The paper tape I mentioned ( also called Tree Wrap around here) is light brown in color with a black backing and is typically used by nurseries (needlessly) to wrap young tree trunks. 

I have found that it can sometimes help trunk wounds if applied immediately after the bark is damaged when Uncle Henry backs the Desoto into Grannie's tree. 

Several hours or days after the fact, I would question its efficacy. 

Tree Wrap does kill mistletoe (by blocking sunlight) if you can keep the wrap on the affected limb for 2 growing seasons.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 19, 2008)

im sure you do question it......
yet you admit its pros......


i say tree lives. just keep an eye on it. the initial damage should be evident by now and can be assesed properly with PICS. future liability should be as well.


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## arbor pro (Jun 19, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> im sure you do question it......
> yet you admit its pros......
> 
> 
> i say tree lives. just keep an eye on it. the initial damage should be evident by now and can be assesed properly with PICS. future liability should be as well.



I don't think anyone said the tree will necessarily die. However, you're now looking at a tree faced with a crown dieback of around 30-35% - similar to trenching right up close on one side of the tree. The subsequent stress put on the tree from the crown dieback will not only look rough because it will all be concentrated to one side of the tree but, it will also weaken the tree's energy reserves by using up energy to replace the lost vegetation. That's when other factors will come into play such as weak shoot growth and increased susceptibility to injury, disease and environmental stress.

It's a bit like a person who goes in for a limb amputation and dies from a staff infection or pneumonia during recovery. The original damage to the tissue isn't what causes death - it's the weakening of the immunity system from extreme stress that opens up the door to other problems that wouldn't otherwise be a problem. The cut on this tree may not cause it's death right away but, it likely will cause problems down the road and very well shorten its lifespan dramatically. 

Root compaction, over-watering, girdling roots, etc etc etc - they all do the same thing which is stress out a tree and kill it over time - a slow lingering death...


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## treeseer (Jun 21, 2008)

arbor pro said:


> I don't think anyone said the tree will necessarily die. However, you're now looking at a tree faced with a crown dieback of around 30-35%



How do you know this?

Important to maximize root function to speed growth of scar tissue. weed and mulch for starters.


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## pbtree (Jun 22, 2008)

treesurgeon said:


> cover wound for two weeks with any tape or plastic, then remove it and leave wound. this will speed up the forming of the callas tissues. leaving it sealed might cause more problems like excessive moisture and rot spreading.



My thoughts, for what it's worth...


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## arbor pro (Jun 23, 2008)

treeseer said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> Important to maximize root function to speed growth of scar tissue. weed and mulch for starters.



I don't 'know' anything for certain. Trees, like all living organisms are capable of overcoming extreme duress. I'm just projecting what I believe will happen based on the biology of trees - specifically ring-porous ones. If I'm wrong - so be it. It won't be the first time, it won't be the last. Just offering my opinion here.


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## EdK (Jun 24, 2008)

*1 week update*

1 week update:

There is no evidence of distress observable in the crown yet. Sorry but you'll have to take my word for it as I've only a basic digital camera which probably wouldn't even let you discern any wilted leaves 50-60ft up even if they were there. Now I do not report this with a beaming ear-to-ear smile as I'm still concerned and don't view 1 week as all that significant but you guys keep on posting to this thread so I felt obliged. I'll keep an eye on it and hope to not have to turn it into firewood.

Thanks, Ed


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## retired redneck (Jun 24, 2008)

*Bridge Grafting*

Bridge grafting like on apple trees damaged by rabbits. dont know if it works on other trees or not??????


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## Sprig (Jul 6, 2008)

retired redneck said:


> Bridge grafting like on apple trees damaged by rabbits. dont know if it works on other trees or not??????



this was my thought when I started to read this thread, take some cuttings of the tree's existing branches and fill the cut with them and adding some rooting hormone, I really have no clue, and am not adverse to admitting it as most know, but I have to agree that sealing it for any amount of time will lead to bigger problems in the future. The cut sounds faily severe, but trees are pretty amazing critters (yes, I do think of trees as critters kind-of). Ideally there is enough energy flowing around the wound to generate callous and natural sealing of the cut.
when all else fails coat wound with honey, well, um, it use to work with severed limbs 2000 years ago  that was jk btw, but as a thought, has anyone tried using tree sap (as in the sap from the origional variety) to seal wound?

Just wondering on this fine half drunken Sunday afternoon 



Serge


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## EdK (Jul 13, 2008)

*26 days since cut...*

Typical summer heat, moderate rainfall for region and time of year: Again, there is no evidence of distress observable in the crown yet.

Lucky, too early to tell??? Will keep watching.


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## edlank (Jul 14, 2008)

*Research study*

I see a research study needing to be done. Imagine the millions of trees that have injuries that each get the local standard practice and no one benefits from knowing if one method is more effective than another. Everyone continues to treat or recommend treatment based on their experience, with limited opportunity for long term assessment.

What I think is needed is controlled reproducible injuries with various treatments of the wound. Long term assessment with necropsy some years later with an analysis of the site of injury and decree of rot versus revascularization through the injury will show what treatments had the best effects. This probably would need to be done for numerous families of trees.

This can be done by an organization with something to gain. This could be a state with a large forest that is harvested, in which a future harvest is planned. Reproducibly injure some trees and treat various ways, with adequate numbers of each method to avoid random effects of other stresses. The injury can be small...the outcome would be degree of healing, not survival or death, and that can be judged from smaller non-lethal injuries on sizable trees.

Anyone out there who can get someone to do this? I would think a state with a good agricultural extension system would be able to get this done, and have an interest in the results. Armed with the results of such a study, we can stop speculating, or start speculating on the fine nuances of how to improve on the best method found, or we could start further studies on how to seal the limb slice that gets used to stuff the wound to stimulate healing.

Might there be any such literature already published that we are all ignoring?

Good record keeping is essential.


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## EdK (Aug 17, 2008)

*2 month update*

It has been 2 summer months, slightly higher than normal rainfall/slightly cooler than normal weather. The crown on cut side of trunk is not any visibly different than opposite side. Tree looks good overall. Lucky or still too early to tell?


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## pdqdl (Aug 19, 2008)

*Great answer !*



arbor pro said:


> Ok, now that I've given my smart*ss response to the question at hand, here's my technical response:
> 
> Some trees are ring-porous, some are diffuse-porous. ....
> 
> ...



Thanks for the refresher course. I'd have rep'ed you, but I wore the button out already.


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