# High flow air filter for the MS460



## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 9, 2007)

Is there anything beside the Max flow for the 460?. I heard that Madsons has some sort of high flow filter?. I opened up the muffler, so the filter is next.


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## pbtree (Dec 9, 2007)

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=AF+046&catID=88
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=SAF+046+01&catID=

Iknow you already mentioned the MaxFlow, but there is another option listed, although I have not used either of them personally...


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## RiverRat2 (Dec 9, 2007)

*yep!!!!*



Outlaw5.0 said:


> Is there anything beside the Max flow for the 460?. I heard that Madsons has some sort of high flow filter?. I opened up the muffler, so the filter is next.



They do,,,, they have a metal cage that is wrapped in removeable black foam,, its an it oiled type filter and I did not see it listed in the catalog,,, when you call just ask about it!!I run one on my 044/460 OEM big bore saw and it works good,,, it is a little messy to clean if you are not used to using an oiled filter but not too bad,,, I like the Belray oil,,,,, I think I paid about 15.00 bucks for it


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## OLY-JIM (Dec 9, 2007)

RiverRat2 said:


> They do,,,, they have a metal cage that is wrapped in removeable black foam,, its an it oiled type filter and I did not see it listed in the catalog,,, when you call just ask about it!!I run one on my 044/460 OEM big bore saw and it works good,,, it is a little messy to clean if you are not used to using an oiled filter but not too bad,,, I like the Belray oil,,,,, I think I paid about 15.00 bucks for it



I guess that this is really a question for all, but which one of the two filters is better, the Max-Flow or the black foam one?


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## RiverRat2 (Dec 9, 2007)

OLY-JIM said:


> I guess that this is really a question for all, but which one of the two filters is better, the Max-Flow or the black foam one?



They both work good,,,,, performance wise 

I think I like the black one better cause I can run my stock air filter cover,

The max flow cover is a bit fragile,,, for my kind of saw work,,,,, I already broke mine:bang: :bang: :bang: 

Ive run them both,,,, 

but for a stock saw The stock filter is great!!!!!!

The other one listed from baileys works good as well,,,,,,


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## Frank Boyer (Dec 9, 2007)

I notice saw dust getting past the stock 460 filter. Is there a trick to getting the filter to seal correctly? I know the dirt bike folks use grease to seal around the contact points.
THANKS


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 9, 2007)

Anyone have pictures of the filter unit from Madsens?. Does the replacement air filter(not the max flow) from Baileys flow anymore air?.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 9, 2007)

Frank Boyer said:


> I notice saw dust getting past the stock 460 filter. Is there a trick to getting the filter to seal correctly? I know the dirt bike folks use grease to seal around the contact points.
> THANKS





It has a rubber seal on the HD filter. If it's leaking then I'd be looking at the prefilter (needs to fit snug with no curling edges, and good elastic) and the filter seal itself.


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## Trigger-Time (Dec 9, 2007)

Frank Boyer said:


> I notice saw dust getting past the stock 460 filter. Is there a trick to getting the filter to seal correctly? I know the dirt bike folks use grease to seal around the contact points.
> THANKS



Dust builds up between the filter and the base plate. So
you may be having dust drop (top of filter) between the filter 
and the base plate of the filter, when removing the filter.
It happens on mine. Most of the time I just remove the prefilter
and blow it out.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 9, 2007)

RiverRat2 said:


> They do,,,, they have a metal cage that is wrapped in removeable black foam



Those are the filters manufactured and sold by Washington HotSaws. Bailey's doesn't sell those. The only filters that Bailey's sells are the stock HD and Max Flow kits.



Outlaw5.0 said:


> Is there anything beside the Max flow for the 460?. I heard that Madsons has some sort of high flow filter?



Madsen's will set you up with a velocity stack adaptor and a K&N filter. However, to run this set-up you have to remove your filter base and run this K&N system without the filter base, not recommended because it exposes the airbox and on/off switch to dust and debris. Also, the K&N filter lets more dust pass than either the Max Flow or Washington HotSaws oil bath filters. If you're dead set on an aftermarket system, go with either one of those. The Washington HotSaws system is designed to fit under the stock cover.


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## Cut4fun (Dec 9, 2007)

Just wondering, but what about that Stihl HD *MESH * winter filter ending in 1653 maybe (Lakeside correct my last #'s if they are wrong please or back wards), wouldn't they flow more air then the 1654 (I think) and maybe be a better choice in the long run.

What experience has anyone had with the Stihl MESH HD filter compared to the stock HD filter? Do you still use the pre-filter on them too?


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 9, 2007)

yes, you still use the prefilter.... They MIGHT flow better, but WILL pass more junk.

Many MS200T owners out here use the mesh type filter because they can figure out how to clean it (pour gas though it while up a tree!!), but crap on the inside indicates it a poor choice. It's only supposed to be used in snow conditions.

The only way to get a higher flow rate filter and still maintain a minimum particle size is to increase the effective filter area. 

Pre-filter are designed to be easily removable and cleaned of fines.

You will increase your flow if you take off the prefilter, but then your main filter will block quicker, and it's difficult to clean. If you're racing, just get rid of the filter completely; if not, leave it stock.


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## Cut4fun (Dec 9, 2007)

Andy, I was just thinking of a option for these guys looking for a higher flowing filter. I thought this way they could have the stock look with better flow and not have to start switching things around.

I already figured out to get more flow in my case. :hmm3grin2orange: 



















Drink more beer or coffee


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## Tree Sling'r (Dec 9, 2007)

Stay away from the K&N, although you can put a foam filter on the velocity stack. It attches with a hose clamp and is oiled with Bel-Ray. You have some stuff that is exposed with this set-up, but just blow it off with air when it gets dirty. Foam filters are cheap and the air flow is pretty impressive.You could also run Max-Flow's without the plastic cover. The kit comes with the extra plate. It is almost like running a stack.
People who think the stock HD systems are fine I obviously not run aftermarket air. The difference is disgusting.


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## Cut4fun (Dec 9, 2007)

*Tree slinger* what have you used to show the gains made running a aftermarket filter? When you compared the aftermarket ones to a HD Cotton to a HD mesh to NO FILTER at all. How did you show that gains were made running the aftermarket stuff? Just curious what the gains were or lost compared to no filter also? How did you test?

Could you show pics of your air filter set ups.
I did see a new 361 sporting a k&n set up with a fine screen wrapped cover of some sort sticking out of the carb cover at the local gtg this weekend.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2007)

The prefilters you typically see on K&Ns are made by Outerwears. They work very wel and make the filter MUCH easier to clean. I had them on my sand duning Banshee for years.


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## Tree Sling'r (Dec 9, 2007)

Cut4fun said:


> *Tree slinger* what have you used to show the gains made running a aftermarket filter? When you compared the aftermarket ones to a HD Cotton to a HD mesh to NO FILTER at all. How did you show that gains were made running the aftermarket stuff? Just curious what the gains were or lost compared to no filter also? How did you test?
> 
> Could you show pics of your air filter set ups.
> I did see a new 361 sporting a k&n set up with a fine screen wrapped cover of some sort sticking out of the carb cover at the local gtg this weekend.



First off all just by looking it is easy to justifly what works better. Open up your stock system and then open up a aftermarket system. Which one could you breath through better?
Secondly you can hear the difference, third any decent mod will not run to it's potential with a stock system, too much restriction.
Fourth the stock systems need cleaning much, much more than the aftermarket stuff.
And finally when sawing with both aftermarket and stock the difference is noticable - power, sounds and smoothness of motor (I know it sounds crazy)

Numbers? Don't have any.

The K&N breath good, but the spray on oil is not tacky enough to keep out the fines. Plus it is a solid unit with no give. Things get bumped out here. At least the foam will tear and you can put a new one on - for a lot less that the K&N unit.


Picture:
Left, Max Flow system - center Stihl HD system - Right, velocity stack with foam filter. Both the Max-Flow and the Stack take Bel-Ray oil.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2007)

I'd like to see a pic of the Madsen foam filter. I don't like the cover that comes with the maxflow. It looks like a very cheap, low quality piece of plastic.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 9, 2007)

blsnelling said:


> I don't like the cover that comes with the maxflow. It looks like a very cheap, low quality piece of plastic.



It is, and it breaks off..


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## Tree Sling'r (Dec 9, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> It is, and it breaks off..



Seen em' bend, but never once break off. Soft plastic.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 9, 2007)

AFE has some nice filters will multiple layers, worth it to check them out. I use them on my diesel, they work great.


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## FSburt (Dec 9, 2007)

Hey Sling'r where do you get to velocity stack to attach the green wienie foam filter to.


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## Tree Sling'r (Dec 9, 2007)

FSburt said:


> Hey Sling'r where do you get to velocity stack to attach the green wienie foam filter to.



Madsen's should still have them. If not I got some.


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## sILlogger (Dec 10, 2007)

this is a velocity stack and foam filter from madsens on my 066


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## Jacob J. (Dec 10, 2007)

We can't run those green weenies up here, too much rain.


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## Buzz 880 (Dec 11, 2007)

Tree Sling'r said:


> First off all just by looking it is easy to justifly what works better. Open up your stock system and then open up a aftermarket system. Which one could you breath through better?
> Secondly you can hear the difference, third any decent mod will not run to it's potential with a stock system, too much restriction.
> Fourth the stock systems need cleaning much, much more than the aftermarket stuff.
> And finally when sawing with both aftermarket and stock the difference is noticable - power, sounds and smoothness of motor (I know it sounds crazy)
> ...



Sling"r
Witch one do you find works best with a modded saw?


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## Tree Sling'r (Dec 11, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> Sling"r
> Witch one do you find works best with a modded saw?



I like them both, honestly - the "Green Weanie" probably gets more air, but the Max-Flow also gets a lot of air and is better for "My" conditions. I never had any problems with either - I like em' both.


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## sILlogger (Dec 11, 2007)

when you say "my" conditions do you mean rain? what are you getting at there? and which filter do you use in the max-flo?


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## Gumnuts (Dec 14, 2007)

Is the Max-flo filter avail for 084 modded saw Applicaltion:millng !!
Have cut foam for motor trimming ,using scroll saw ! Just a thought to make them as I like the idea ,as we all do ,of increasing airflow.The pre-filter would'nt be 2 hard either.Pretty sure matching the foam is not an issue.

.02 :chainsawguy:


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## Jacob J. (Dec 15, 2007)

sILlogger said:


> when you say "my" conditions do you mean rain? what are you getting at there? and which filter do you use in the max-flo?



I've tried the green weenies here, in coastal Oregon. On a rainy day, which it usually is in the fall/winter/spring, it takes about 15-20 minutes and they're soaked with water (mainly from the wet brush) and they start lugging the saw down. I tried several "covers", an old glove, boot socks, canvas wrap, etc.- all it did was make things worse. I run the Max Flows now with the white "fine pore" filter element and the stock Stihl blue inner spitback filter.


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## Gumnuts (Dec 15, 2007)

Jacob J. said:


> I tried several "covers", an old glove, boot socks, canvas wrap, etc.- all it did was make things worse. I run the Max Flows now with the white "fine pore" filter element and the stock Stihl blue inner spitback filter.



boot socks I'll have to add them to the duck tape ,WD , an barbd wire.
i  to the mothers of invention.

am running HD - 1654's for now.


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## thenline (Jul 26, 2008)

Just curious if all you guys running the Max-Flow w/80-pore white filter and no cover have had to richen your 460's out when replacing the stock HD filter and cover? I just got my 460 set up with the white filter and custom made Outers Pre-filter cover (yeah, call me Suzie-Homemaker) on the saw and headed out in the woods today. Surprisingly, I ran ~13,500-13,700 with both setups, depending on how quickly I could switch back and forth. There was no repeatable winner in rpm jump/rise between the two

Saw: MS460 Magnum w/Bailey's BB Kit, Stihl DP muffler

Setup 1: MaxFlow white filter w/PJ1 foam filter oil (very lightly oiled), Outers pre-filter wrap, stock black plastic flange (no interference noticed, as per MF instructions)
Setup 2: Stock Stihl HD air filter assemly w/stock pre-filter wrap, stock black plastic flange, stock plastic air filter cover.

I would have bet the farm that I'd have to have turned out my high speed screw when I switched to the MF, but it didn't seem necessary...

Thoughts, experiences, etc.?


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## Lakeside53 (Jul 27, 2008)

uh oh... opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## thenline (Jul 27, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> uh oh... opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:



Sorry, but you lost me with that "uh oh..." Care to further explain; the suspense is killing me!


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## Lakeside53 (Jul 27, 2008)

Oh... something about Emporers and no clothes comes to mind...

Like most Chainsaw "enhancements", religeon comes into play.. those that BUY then often swear they help; most just stay quiet

Fish will no doubt explain it to you.:greenchainsaw:


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## 04ultra (Jul 27, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Oh... something about Emporers and no clothes comes to mind...
> 
> Like most Chainsaw "enhancements", religeon comes into play.. those that BUY then often swear they help; most just stay quiet
> 
> Fish will no doubt explain it to you.:greenchainsaw:




opcorn: opcorn:


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## teacherman (Jul 28, 2008)

How about an adapter and an Edelbrock 360 degree air filter??

hahahahahahahaa


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## Lakeside53 (Jul 28, 2008)

The best test of a saws filter "inefficiency" if to take the filter OFF and use panty-hose as a temporary filter. Timed cuts, then... do the same with stock or whatever filter. 

A filter still has to filter though...


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## RiverRat2 (Jul 28, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> "inefficiency" if to filter ?????
> 
> The best test of a saws temporary filter ,,,, still has to filter though!!!! use whatever,,, Timed cuts, with stock or filter. then do the same ... take "OFF" the panty-hose!!!!!! :jawdrop: ...



:monkey:     opcorn:


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## Lakeside53 (Jul 28, 2008)

And I thought you didn't drink to excess...:monkey:


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## Bowtie (Jul 28, 2008)

I dont know if there is an improvement in flow and hp with the aftermarket setups. I do have experience in the area that "certain" aftermarket filters do not filter as well as stock setups.. I argued with BSnelling about this until I gave up. If you are building a hotrod toy, it doesnt matter so much, but if its a work saw I would be wary. I really dont think the stock HD filter setup is that bad. Just my opinion.


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## blsnelling (Jul 28, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> I argued with BSnelling about this...



Hey, I resemble that remark:greenchainsaw:


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## RiverRat2 (Jul 29, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> And I thought you didn't drink to excess...:monkey:



Normally I dont,,,,, but I have been known to have my moments,,,, 

I find that it is most prevalent after A difficult Monday,,,,, dealing with Insidious amounts of Gov. BS


BTW : thats one more reason to keep Killing Tree's!!!!!!! to feed the paper machines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bowtie (Jul 29, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Hey, I resemble that remark:greenchainsaw:



No offense meant Brad, all for arguments sake.


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## blsnelling (Jul 29, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> No offense meant Brad, all for arguments sake.



No sweat man.


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## kevin j (Jul 29, 2008)

years back I rode mc with a guy who did not believe on using filter oil on the foam elements. 'if you do that, they just plug up with ####....'

a filter has to filter for a work saw....

k


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## thenline (Aug 1, 2008)

*Actual Max-Flow flowbench data*

Well guys, I was hoping to get some feedback (others’ first-hand experiences) on carburetor tuning between the stock Stihl HD filter setup versus the Max-flow, but not seeing anything, I took it upon myself to spend some time on the flowbench and provide everybody some objective data on actual flow between the two systems, as well as slight variations to each as well.

If you open up the Word.doc, you'll see a summary of the flow data. I performed my testing at 28"H2O, but for all those more familiar with 25” or 10"H2O, I ran the conversions for those test pressures as well. 

There's two sets of data within the document; the first is a set of high flow numbers flowing just the filters on a mounting plate. The mounting plate was machined with a 2 1/2" ID hole. I had this plate available and it fit the ID of the stock filter pretty closely, so I used it. The next set of data was measured through the complete intake system, and is the set of data that is of importance. The plate the intake system was mounted to was machined to match the carburetor bore. Attached to the plate is the carburetor (stock bore), air cleaner backing plate, radiused inlet, etc. 

In the results are some generalized observations. I won't spoil the fun; I'll let you throw your thoughts around for a little while and come to your own conclusions. 

Also included - if I do this correctly - are photos of each setup. Each photo is referenced to the data in the Word.doc.

Have fun!


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## thenline (Aug 1, 2008)

More pics...


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## thenline (Aug 1, 2008)

More...


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## thenline (Aug 1, 2008)

Last ones...


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## Stihl 041S (Aug 1, 2008)

With good info, how will they B1tch? Thats right, they don't need a reason.
Very nice work. Thanks. Many times, folks answer a question, just not the one you asked.


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## thenline (Aug 1, 2008)

Stihl 041S said:


> With good info, how will they B1tch? Thats right, they don't need a reason.
> Very nice work. Thanks. Many times, folks answer a question, just not the one you asked.



Thanks for the kind words! It really was my pleasure; I owe it to this forum for being such an incredible wealth of knowledge and info.

I neglected to leave out a few items in my last post.
* The flow work was performed on a Superflow SF600 flowbench
* Flowing was all performed early this morning with ambients that remained fairly constant throughout the procedure.
* The reason for running a "dry 60-pore" and an "oiled 80-pore" is because the 60-pore is brand new and will be sold in an extra new M-F kit I have; the 80-pore filter is the filter I had on my saw when I originally discovered that it and my stock Stihl HD filter produced the same WOT RPM.
* The stock HD filter assembly (filter and wrap) are both near new, with only a few tanks of fuel run w/them on.


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## Stihl 041S (Aug 2, 2008)

Bump


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## Tzed250 (Aug 2, 2008)

Some people hate it when facts get in the way of the truth...


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## Lakeside53 (Aug 2, 2008)

Nice mythbuster work!


Now... how about a bunch of tests with sawdust on the filters, and accounting for dust losses though the filter - using repeatable scientific methodology


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## Trigger-Time (Aug 2, 2008)

thenline,

Thanks a bunch!

:yourock:      :yourock:


Gary


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## thenline (Aug 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Nice mythbuster work!
> 
> 
> Now... how about a bunch of tests with sawdust on the filters, and accounting for dust losses though the filter - using repeatable scientific methodology



I couldn't agree with you more! I was pretty disappointed to see the small increase in flow; hardly worth the expense and additional maintenance/cleaning. It's deceiving in their advertisements, seeing the 135CFM vs 89CFM. But, as I found using the 2 1/2" ID plate, the potential for that flow difference is definitely there. You'll just never see the need for it, or utilize it on a motor that small in displacement, utilizing the stock carburetor (and exhaust, CR, etc.).

Thanks for the kind words from all; I'm off to the woods!


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## Tzed250 (Aug 2, 2008)

thenline said:


> I couldn't agree with you more! I was pretty disappointed to see the small increase in flow; hardly worth the expense and additional maintenance/cleaning. It's deceiving in their advertisements, seeing the 135CFM vs 89CFM. But, as I found using the 2 1/2" ID plate, the potential for that flow difference is definitely there. You'll just never see the need for it, or utilize it on a motor that small in displacement, utilizing the stock carburetor (and exhaust, CR, etc.).
> 
> Thanks for the kind words from all; I'm off to the woods!



Proving the manufacturers are not a bunch of idiots...


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## Trigger-Time (Aug 2, 2008)

I think, I use to clean my filter's more often than really needed.
When I first started milling, I would clean filter after 2 tanks of
fuel (066). Last time milling, cleaned filter one time while milling,
used 1.5 gal. in 066 that day. RPM's had not slowed down (by tach)
but it was lunch time so thought I would blow filter out and dust
out of saw. I had an 066 air filter cover with the top busted, cut
busted part of. Thought it might breather better and I could see
how dirty filter really was with out pulling cover.

This may sound crazy......but filter seems stay cleaner while milling
with top of cover cut off, *it maybe all in my head*.


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## 2dogs (Aug 16, 2008)

Mark 42 said:


> You can even buy special air filter grease.
> I'd just put a thin bead of grease and make sure the screw/nut
> are pulling the filter tight against the base. If the filter gets
> smaller as it ages it might not be tall enough to fill the space
> ...



I use a bead of grease on my cutoff saw, a Stihl TS350, but never on the chainsaws. The chainsaw carbs stay clean enough.


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## BloodOnTheIce (Aug 16, 2008)

I think I'm reading the results correctly, the Stock Stihl filter without the outer band prefilter far exceded the Max Flow filter? Ain't that somethin'


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## Meadow Beaver (Aug 16, 2008)

I'll stick to my white Max-Flows. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## RiverRat2 (Aug 17, 2008)

Mark 42 said:


> It's good data, but dyno tests with clean and dirty filters would be
> closer to what the goal is (increased power).
> 
> If the flow is similar, horsepower should also be, but the lower velocities
> ...



:agree2: :agree2: :agree2: 

FYI that stihl filter and carb will flow more than you think,,,,,even when its dirty!!!!!


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## Dok (Nov 11, 2008)

A bump for this informative thread. I was curious about the Max Flows. I have seen them at the dealer but they don't seem to sell many. After reading this I'm sticking to the stock filter. Attaboys to Thenline, thanks for taking the time to gather this info.
Dok


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## corrupt (Apr 14, 2010)

another bump, you just save me some $$


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## madhatte (Apr 14, 2010)

Wow. This is big news. I can't believe how much the prefilter restricts flow! I also can't believe that I haven't dumb-lucked onto this thread before. I may have to do another video.


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## gemniii (Oct 13, 2010)

I was looking at getting a Max-Flow for my 660. I'll save the $$.

so this is basically a bump for an excellent buried thread. 



thenline said:


> Well guys, I was hoping to get some feedback (others’ first-hand experiences) on carburetor tuning between the stock Stihl HD filter setup versus the Max-flow, but not seeing anything, I took it upon myself to spend some time on the flowbench and provide everybody some objective data on actual flow between the two systems, as well as slight variations to each as well.
> 
> If you open up the Word.doc, you'll see a summary of the flow data. I performed my testing at 28"H2O, but for all those more familiar with 25” or 10"H2O, I ran the conversions for those test pressures as well.
> 
> ...


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## mike1273 (Oct 30, 2010)

Bump, good info & eye opening.


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## gemniii (Jan 28, 2011)

*Bump*

The benefits of the max-flow were brought up recently.
Just the facts often don't agree with the hype.


thenline said:


> Well guys, I was hoping to get some feedback (others’ first-hand experiences) on carburetor tuning between the stock Stihl HD filter setup versus the Max-flow, but not seeing anything, I took it upon myself to spend some time on the flowbench and provide everybody some objective data on actual flow between the two systems, as well as slight variations to each as well.
> 
> If you open up the Word.doc, you'll see a summary of the flow data. I performed my testing at 28"H2O, but for all those more familiar with 25” or 10"H2O, I ran the conversions for those test pressures as well.
> 
> ...


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## MaxFlow Flters (Oct 30, 2012)

*Maxflow Inventor Responds*



thenline said:


> Well guys, I was hoping to get some feedback (others’ first-hand experiences) on carburetor tuning between the stock Stihl HD filter setup versus the Max-flow, but not seeing anything, I took it upon myself to spend some time on the flowbench and provide everybody some objective data on actual flow between the two systems, as well as slight variations to each as well.



I want to thank the thousands of loggers who have used our system worldwide. We know it works, we hear from satisfied customers virtually every day. I work on the front lines of fires and meet hotshot crews at the fire camps and get first hand feedback on our filters. Fires are possibly the worst environment that a saw will ever see. There is NOTHING on the market that will out perform a Maxflow filter in real world conditions. It is not just about wide open airflow in a flow bench. It is how well a filter flows after 1 or 2 or 50 cleanings. It is how well the lower end bearings will hold in real day to day use. It is how consistent the power will be at the end of the day, not just at the beginning. And it is about having a saw that will make you money by running efficiently for longer periods of time between cleanings, so that you use less fuel, and spend less time on the tailgate.

The Maxflow Filter was developed by a logger and improved over many years to what you see today. And Maxflow Filters are the only filters that are legal to use on Forest Service lands. They aren't pretty, but pretty would double the cost. We chose ugly but effective and affordable. 

I see that this is an old post but since I do not use the internet much it has taken a long time for this type of information to come to my attention. This type of unsolicited testing is very constructive and I appreciate the effort that was made to help the end users make an informed buying decision. There are a couple of things that need to be pointed out, because how the information is presented has a huge effect on what it's meaning actually is or should be.
1. The most important mis-information here is that the stock HD filter, without the outer band will outflow the Maxflow system. This is because the stock filter is not actually filtering (much) without the outer band. The outer band is an essential part of the filter. If you were to put our empty cage on the flowbench with a nylon around it, it would far out flow the stock filter, but it also wouldn't filter anything either. It is also pointless to test the flow of our elements without oil. Certainly they will flow more air, but the debris will pass through as well. The Maxflow filter will far outflow any factory filter if they are both set up to the required configuration.
2. The figures for the flowbench are completely different than ours because ours were done at 10 inches of H2O not 28. Also unless calibration is done between two different flowbenches for altitude and temperature, there will never be identical results, even at the same H20 reading. 
3. For the results to matter, the amount of air that a saw requires at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE (WOT) must be established. Any airflow over that number will not add to performance or make your saw run any stronger. However the airflow above that number will indicate how much of the filter can be clogged up, and have the saw still run at peak performance. Since there is no reference in any of the testing as to how much air a saw needs, there is no way to show how much filtering capacity is available. Our figures are actually based on how much air a saw will actually use. They were done with the most demanding saw, an 084, which draws 58 CFM WOT. The 066 uses less and the 046 even less. So any saw will run fine with a new CLEAN filter. But the results change dramatically after a filter has been used and cleaned a couple of times. The factory filters drop substantially in airflow once they are used and cleaned. The more cleanings, the less airflow they offer. In the case of the 084, a used, (but cleaned) filter only brings you 19 CFM of additional filtering capacity. Real world tests showed that this excess could be used up in less than an hour. On an 066 the excessive capacity could be used up in 4-5 hours of heavy cutting. On an 046 it would take several days. Even though there would be good top end power, as the filter clogged the responsiveness of the saw would diminish. Continued cutting leads to low power output, high fuel consumption and greatly increased engine wear.
With the Maxflow filter, the element can be reliably cleaned even after running in the worst conditions. After cleaning it returns to nearly 100% of the new filter airflow. Because of the larger surface area there is nearly 300% more excess airflow available for an 084 (even while effectively filtering). Under most conditions, an 084 will cut for several days, an 066 up to a week and an 046, 10 days or more. They may more steps to clean the filter element, but you only need to do it a fraction as often. Since you have 100% of the air needed for the saw to run powerfully 100% of the time, it puts money in your pocket and saves you aggravation as well. And as some of the more astute posters (Mark42) have pointed out, it is not just the amount of air, but the quality of air. The Maxflow filters size and capacity conditions the air, leading to far less carb icing in wet conditions. And the volume of air that is immediately available leads to a snappier saw from the moment it is installed. 

I appreciate that someone took the time to test our claims, I understand why, on a smaller saw, with a clean stock filter, the tester might see a limited difference. However; on a larger saw, against a clean used filter, there will be a dramatic increase in performance with the Maxflow installed, and a corresponding carb adjustment for optimal RPM. And as thousands of fallers and arborists attest, when the saw meets the wood for day or weeks or months at a time, the Maxflow filter is far superior and has been for nearly 20 years. 

Thank you for reading my long post.. Joseph


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## thenline (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi Joseph,

I saw that you PM’d me minutes before posting your comments, asking me to contact you, but since you didn’t give me a chance to get in touch with you before posting, I’ll just post my thoughts below.

First and foremost, I have no vested interested in your product nor any other manufacturer's product – I want that to be perfectly clear. I’m a homeowner with 40-acres of woods that I maintain. I use my MS460 for maintenance and making firewood, and I spend a fair amount of time cutting with it. I don’t cut in fire-conditions and I don’t own or operate an 084. I’ve owned larger Stihl saws but prefer my MS460 w/BB kit and DP muffler.

Before continuing, let me give you a little background on myself. I have an engineering degree and worked in the high-performance powersports industry for many years. I worked for an engine manufacturer as a project engineer. There, I did fuel calibration and development, engine controls development, exhaust emissions testing, noise testing, etc. I helped to develop and/or test intake systems, carburetors and fuel injection, internal engine components, as well as complete engines up to 160ci. I was even involved with creating – from scratch – a wet flow bench to test carburetors and intakes. Said flow bench used a 30HP Siemens pump to mimic the real-world vacuum present in real-world running conditions.

Again, I have no experience cutting in fires, nor pretend to. Personally, I consider cutting in the woods, not cutting in forest fires, real-world (or at the very least, more common and realistic) conditions for a chainsaw. That’s just my opinion, and I have nothing against those who do cut in fire conditions – in fact, I thank said individuals for doing so when the need arises. They are to be commended.

Regarding your performance after “1 or 2 or 50 cleanings” comments, I cannot directly comment on that with your specific product, as that was out of the realm of my testing. I have tested and have seen test results from other foam filters (both oiled and not oiled) for on- and off-road products and know how they compare to other filtering media. I will refrain from getting into those results at this time. Personally, though, I clean my saw each and every time I use it, regardless of how many tanks of fuel I run through it with each use. I haven’t had an issue with the longevity or performance of my HD filter. I have seen what can happen to the HD filters when they don’t get cleaned – and the effects on engine performance when it happens – but I have also seen the same thing happen with foam filters in other applications.

I do take offense to you stating that I provided “mis-information”; I did no such thing, Joseph. You state that it’s mis-information, yet agree that the HD filter w/out wrap does in fact flow more. As an engineer, I wanted to provide objective test results for as many combinations that I could think of which other forum members might want to see. Just because it flowed higher doesn’t make it invalid data or mis-information. Would I run that set-up on my own saw? No, of course not. Would I suggest others doing so? No, but the data was collected and presented. Testing with the nylon was a perfect example of testing with different combinations/configurations; another forum member mentioned it in the thread so I thought I’d test it as well. Try to picture the look on my wife’s face when I asked her for one of her nylons…

As for the test pressure the testing was done at, I provided data at 10inches of H2O as well as 25 and 28. I chose to perform testing at higher pressure, as that’s industry standard, but whether tested at 10, 25, 28, etc., the % change is what is of interest. The same goes for flow bench to flow bench comparisons. No two flow benches will provide the exact same CFM results, but again, CFM numbers are not what I was after. I was researching the % change found between products and configurations. “CFM” and “inches of water” are labels and should be treated as such. The percentage of increase or decrease is what’s of importance.

Regarding extra filtering media, I couldn’t agree more. It goes without saying, the larger the filtering area available, the longer it takes to get clogged. I’d be interested in hearing about how you measured (again, measured, not calculated) your 58 CFM value, though. What type of flow meter(s) and data acquisition equipment did you use to obtain a measurement of 58CFM on a running 084?

In conclusion, again, this testing was done because after doing A-B-A testing out in my real-world cutting conditions, I saw no difference between the two filter systems on my MS460 – subjectively, while cutting – nor – objectively, while measuring RPM with a tachometer. After reading your company’s claims and purchasing your product, I had hoped to find increased HP performance. After finding no such thing in the woods, I had hoped to get some feedback from forum members, but because I received none specific to my question, I conducted controlled testing to determine a valid explanation. The data presented from the testing was accurate and included as many configurations that I could come up with in the time I had available to do said testing in one sitting. I didn’t provide the information to direct potential customers to or from either product. I provided it as a forum member to follow up the question I had posted.

Tom


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## MaxFlow Flters (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi Tom,

Unfortunately after I posted my response I saw some errors and could not correct them because I'm new to the forum.

First, mis-information is the wrong word. I meant to say mis-understanding of the data presented. I only brought it up because of a post above where someone commented on the stock filter without a band as being something of a valid comparison to an actual filter ready to perform. I understood what you were doing.

The second point I wrote incorrectly was that we tested at 9 inches, of H20 not 10. We used a Superflow 110 and our test looked like your setup, except used custom plates with exact hole openings. We used 9 inches because an 084 at wide open throttle would only pull 9 inches of water without bogging down as we measures its airflow. We made a special plate and built tools to get an accurate reading on a running chainsaw. We used that to calibrate the Superflow so the test had some validity. We did many different tests over months of innovation and then built filters, and then went and used them logging for several months on each prototype. At the beginning we were happy to just double the time between filter cleaning, and as time went on we arrived at what we sell today. We also found that many loggers just loved the sound of their saw screaming at peak power with a Maxflow filter installed, especially with a DP muffler.

As you found on your saw, there is virtually no performance change verses a new filter, they both flow much more than what the saw can possibly breathe. And if you clean your filter daily like you do, you will never experience a degradation of performance with a stock unit when you are woodcutting. So for you and the majority of homeowners using an 044, the stock filter is more than adequate. But for professionals who cut for hours every day, it is a whole different world. An 066 that is working down on a stump and in a cloud of dust will clog a stock filter in half a day or less. Carrying one or two extra filters just to get through a day is problematic. One of our filters will get you through days where the factory filter can't and the inside of the filter cage will still be spotless. Two stroke saws are amazingly sensitive to air flow restrictions, much more than motorcycles. There is no comparison between other motors and chainsaws which run basically wide open all the time. This is especially if you are working in the mountains where the air is a bit thin anyways. The longer a saw can suck clean unobstructed air, the longer it will perform at peak.
The other advantage of the Maxflow filter is that by having more surface area, we allow the air to enter at low velocity through a broad area of filter media. A stock filter has less area and as the surface fills with debris the velocity through the remaining area is higher, which draws dirt into the inside of the engine. Fire service is the most severe example of how to test this.

If you read the label on our kits, it talks about how long the filter will run, and all the CFM calculations reference the extra cleaning capacity that we offer. We do not advertise anywhere that we will add horsepower to a saw. I would like to know where you believe we "claim" this. What we do claim is that with our filter you will be able to produce a saws maximum horsepower for far longer between cleanings than with a stock filter. We then made sure that professionals and woodcutters could legally run them in the woods, something that no other aftermarket air filter has ever done. 
We also found that many saws were being run with "cleaned" filters that were already restrictive. Unless you constantly put new filters on, you were not even getting rated horsepower. For these users, putting on one of our filters gives increased airflow, resulting in a need to richen the mixture. This immediately increases the output back to stock peak performance and keeps it there. We tried for several years to develop a test to put the air filters into a dirty environment, under "lab" conditions, to actually measure how much debris a filter could hold without degradation of power. In the end, we found that loggers, using the saws in actual conditions, provided much better feedback on longevity. We still hear this today. 

As I said in my PM to you, I really LIKED your test. I was amazed that someone took the time and had the knowledge and equipment to generate neat numbers like that. Bench test results are interesting, but must be paired with work in actual cutting. It is real world work where Maxflow filters have earned their deserved reputation for long life. Maxflow filters are much more than numbers generated on a sheet of paper.

By the way, I really liked your pre-filter sock. Perhaps you should offer them on the internet as a way to prolong the life of the element from tearing in brushy conditions if a cover isn't used.

Joseph


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## thenline (Oct 31, 2012)

Maxflow said:


> If you read the label on our kits, it talks about how long the filter will run, and all the CFM calculations reference the extra cleaning capacity that we offer. We do not advertise anywhere that we will add horsepower to a saw. I would like to know where you believe we "claim" this. What we do claim is that with our filter you will be able to produce a saws maximum horsepower for far longer between cleanings than with a stock filter. We then made sure that professionals and woodcutters could legally run them in the woods, something that no other aftermarket air filter has ever done. .
> 
> Joseph



Hi Joseph,

It's almost 1:00am here, so I'm past ready for bed and am going to make this abbreviated. 

Thanks for your kind words on my testing and on my pre-filter sock. If I wasn't busy enough the way it was, I might have to take your suggestion on the sock!

As for your question above regarding the claim, as of 10/31/12, 12:55am CST, it's right on your website (copied directly from the site and posted below). I don't have a copy of my original instructions handy but could check for it on them as well.

_"MaxFlow air filters trap the smallest particles while flowing twice as much air as stock air filters. This helps your saw breath better, resulting smoother running and more power"_

Tom


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## chadihman (Oct 31, 2012)

Thanks for the info fleebay bud. I'm just gonna stick with my HD2 filters. They do the job for me. I gave ya some rep too.


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## MaxFlow Flters (Oct 31, 2012)

thenline said:


> Hi Joseph,
> 
> _"MaxFlow air filters trap the smallest particles while flowing twice as much air as stock air filters. This helps your saw breath better, resulting smoother running and more power"_
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## thenline (Oct 31, 2012)

Maxflow said:


> thenline said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Joseph,
> ...


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## MaxFlow Flters (Oct 31, 2012)

thenline said:


> Maxflow said:
> 
> 
> > I'm happy to see, though, that you removed the "flowing twice as much air as stock air filters" reference from your statement, as that of course was not the case, as shown in the testing, if referring to CFM.
> ...


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## Tree Sling'r (Oct 31, 2012)

Maxflow said:


> thenline said:
> 
> 
> > In our testing our filters DO flow twice as much CFM as a stock filter. That your tests show different CFM figures where the CFM is closer only proves that our filters shed debris far better than the stock filter, partly due to the reduced velocity, partly due to other factors, and this allows the saw to flow more air for a longer period. This can really get into interpretations and splitting hairs.
> ...


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## thenline (Oct 31, 2012)

Maxflow said:


> thenline said:
> 
> 
> > In our testing our filters DO flow twice as much CFM as a stock filter. That your tests show different CFM figures where the CFM is closer only proves that our filters shed debris far better than the stock filter, partly due to the reduced velocity, partly due to other factors, and this allows the saw to flow more air for a longer period. This can really get into interpretations and splitting hairs.
> ...


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## openloop (Oct 31, 2012)

For a given airflow if two filters are tasked to filter the same amount of dirt... the only way one would show better "dirty performance" would be by increased surface area or with less effective filtration. Two filters of the same surface area that flow differently obviously have very different filtration capabilities. Do the filters in question have a radically different filtration area? If not then the only way one will allow better flow while being dirty would be to allow particulates to pass through the engine. I personally would much rather ensure the proper filtration than ensure consistent power levels well after I should have been cleaning the filter.


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## MaxFlow Flters (Oct 31, 2012)

thenline said:


> Maxflow said:
> 
> 
> > In addition, my testing and CFM figures showed absolutely no such thing regarding your filter "shedding debris better than a stock filter".
> ...


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## MaxFlow Flters (Nov 2, 2012)

*Gauze Vs. Foam filters in chainsaw applications*



openloop said:


> For a given airflow if two filters are tasked to filter the same amount of dirt... the only way one would show better "dirty performance" would be by increased surface area or with less effective filtration. Two filters of the same surface area that flow differently obviously have very different filtration capabilities. Do the filters in question have a radically different filtration area? If not then the only way one will allow better flow while being dirty would be to allow particulates to pass through the engine. I personally would much rather ensure the proper filtration than ensure consistent power levels well after I should have been cleaning the filter.



Your question states the requirements of a filter perfectly. Ideally you would like to have high airflow (CFM) and high efficiency (particle removal) to give high effectiveness. To compare two filters the answer is not as simple as you might think, especially where the filters use different filter mediums, oiled gauze vs. oiled foam. You can google those keywords and bring up manufacturers websites, K& N, Uni, No-toil etc, but information is surprisingly spotty. This is partly because each filter medium has its strengths and weaknesses and the websites tend to emphasize the parts where they do best. Even if you work through the information, most of it is directed at motorcycle or car applications and chainsaws are somewhat different. It would take several pages to try to present this properly, but I'll try to summarize.

Since you asked, we will cover surface area. Gauze has a high CFM airflow when new, foam will have a lower CFM for a given surface area, so typically they are made slightly larger to off set this. There is a formula to show how much air an engine needs and how much surface area that requires. An 084 has 7.4 C.I. and turns at 12,000 rpm = 88800/ 20839 = 4.2 square inches minimum. An 046 needs 2.9 sq/in. Typical off road filter application should have 2 times the surface area, but chainsaws live in a much harsher environment and need a higher value. A factory filter has around 15 sq/in of surface or 3.5x service interval. A Maxflow has around 30 sq/in or 7.4X service interval. With the Maxflow, an 084 has 7.4x interval, a 046 has 10.3x interval so it is clear that an 046 will run much longer between cleanings. 

I'll speak to gauze vs. foam efficiency ("efficiency" being the ability to capture dirt). Since gauze has the advantage of high airflow when new, CFM tests are usually taken on new elements. But these tests don't give the real picture because new gauze filters don't actually filter very efficiently. It takes some time for the filter to trap enough dirt, which then acts as filter medium, before the filter gains high cleaning efficiency. From K&N "As the filter begins to collect debris, an additional form of filter action begins to take place because air must first pass through the dirt particles trapped on the surface that have become part of the filtering media. That means the filtration efficiency of a K&N element actually increase as the filter collects dirt". Unfortunately, while the efficiency in increasing, the CFM is already dropping because as the filter collects dirt, the restriction value increases. Using only CFM testing on new elements is not an accurate to measure gauze filters, because where the filter is efficiently cleaning dirt the CFM is much lower. We always test gauze filter at their efficient (somewhat dirty) stage. So constantly cleaning a gauze filter to achieve high CFM is not going to give your saw the cleanest air. Once the dirt barrier restriction becomes too high the mixture will richen and power drops. If cutting is continued, the dirt is sucked through the filter, OR it is sucked around it OR it is sucked through the crank seals. Fire cutting is the most extreme example of the limitations of gauze filters. When they are clean the fines pass right into the engine. Then the filter begins to load up with fines and the filter is effective, but as the restriction value increases the airflow drops. Either the filter must be changed, starting the cycle again, or the dirt will pass through the crank seals, quickly destroying the bearings. In these brutal conditions saws can seize up in less than a day. Somewhere between totally clean, and totally restricted is a sweet spot where they work perfectly. How long that sweet spot is depends on how large the saw is and how harsh the filtering needs are. For may users that sweet spot is adequate and this may be one reason that the manufacture uses this type of filter.

Oiled foam does a tremendous job of filtering. The thousands of small pores offer tacky spots throughout the depth of the filter to trap particles. As the airflow twists through the pores it is cleaned and this has the advantage of having immediate high filter efficiency, even on a freshly installed filter. The disadvantage of this twisted airflow path is that there is some additional restriction, however, if there is room for a larger foam filter, this can be easily overcome and the CFM of a foam filter can equal or better that of a new gauze filter. The benefit of a foam filter in a chainsaw application is that it will filter small particles immediately, and does not require the loading up of dirt that a gauze filter requires. The other advantage is that the foam filter will provide a nearly constant airflow as it traps dirt. To do this a foam filter must be carefully oiled to filter properly. While motor oil can be used, proper foam oil is much tackier and will stay on the foam longer. The better the oil, the better the filtering. Bar oil should never be used since it is not designed to be burned in a combustion chamber. Because the filter foam itself is not doing the filtering, at some point the oil in the foam will be used up. It is at this point that the foam filter must be cleaned or the dirt will pass through the foam and into the engine. Since there is little restriction value, (just dirty air) there is virtually no chance of air bypassing around the foam or through a crank seal. As long as the filter element is cleaned and replenished with oil, the chainsaw will experience CFM values far in excess of what it needs to run at maximum power AND it will ALWAYS get a spotless supply of air. Since the engine RPM will not drop, even when the oil is used up, it is very important to check the inside of the filter to determine that no dirt is inside the cage. If there is ANY dirt, then the saw has been run too long and the dirt trapping oil is used up. By checking the inside of a Maxflow cage at regular intervals, this overrunning can be avoided. Once you know approximately how long your saw will run, you can anticipate when a cleaning and re-oiling is necessary. For most users with 046 0r 066 saws, the interval is usually just part of their weekend maintenance.

Our testing has shown that Maxflow filters offer cleaner air, for a longer period of time than a gauze filter. While cleaning the air they will allow your saw to run at a consistently high power level. They are very easy to check to determine when they do need cleaning. 

I hope this helps. Joseph


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## thenline (Oct 12, 2015)

thenline said:


> *Actual Max-Flow flowbench data*
> 
> Well guys, I was hoping to get some feedback (others’ first-hand experiences) on carburetor tuning between the stock Stihl HD filter setup versus the Max-flow, but not seeing anything, I took it upon myself to spend some time on the flowbench and provide everybody some objective data on actual flow between the two systems, as well as slight variations to each as well.
> 
> ...



I don't get on here as often as I should, and didn't realize that the site was hacked a while back (and pictures/videos/links deleted), so I thought that I would insert all the data again for those interested.


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## thenline (Oct 12, 2015)

thenline said:


> More pics...


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## super3 (Oct 12, 2015)

thenline said:


> I don't get on here as often as I should, and didn't realize that the site was hacked a while back (and pictures/videos/links deleted), so I thought that I would insert all the data again for those interested.


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## TedJ (Aug 29, 2017)

Thank you for re-posting the data and pics I was wondering where they were very interesting results. Like you I use my MS460 for fire wood processing. I was going to buy the Max Flow but at $60.00 with and extra clean oiled filter in a zip lock bag ready to go. That is how I use to carry my Dirt bike filters so I could just swap out and clean when time allowed. I think I will stick with the OEM filter they are allot easier to clean out.
Thanks again!
Ted


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## thenline (Aug 29, 2017)

No problem; my pleasure.


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