# Through The Looking Glass



## treecycle (Jan 14, 2010)

Fired up the 4 stroke CSM today. Wow is right! 

Pulled a 5 foot bar full comp with power to spare .

Filled the parking lot with sawdust, too. Blew through some Cherry and then onto a 4 ft Doug Fir. Finish is better than a band mill! PIcs are on the way. Cheers


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## DRB (Jan 14, 2010)

Can't wait to see pics. opcorn:opcorn:


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## mtngun (Jan 14, 2010)

DRB said:


> Can't wait to see pics. opcorn:opcorn:


+1 No fair building up the excitement and then withholding pictures.


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## splitpost (Jan 15, 2010)

opcorn:opcorn:


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## dingeryote (Jan 15, 2010)

Shameless TEASE!!!


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## treecycle (Jan 15, 2010)

Ditch the Mix


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## jimdad07 (Jan 15, 2010)

That is very nice work.


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## smithie55 (Jan 15, 2010)

Hey Treecycle,
So show us how it all works?
more pics
Looks cool
How big a motor you got on there?
more pics!!!
more pics!!!


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## DRB (Jan 15, 2010)

It sure looks like you got it cutting nice. 

What kind of edge grain wood are you cutting there.


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## BobL (Jan 15, 2010)

Looks goof for what can be seen so far.

Can't quite make it out but it looks like you are moving log up to the mill rather than mill to the log? If so, is this just temp or ?


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## treecycle (Jan 15, 2010)

Pictured is a Doug Fir slab. 

The motor is a 25 horse v-twin( Ultra low vibes) and quiet

The shipping container stays stationary, the log is loaded into the container, each passing slice removes a slab until there is no more log left.

The saw carriage just glides back and forth on the horizontal plane. Up and down for the rails is controlled through an electric winch connected to all four corners of the rails to set the depth of cut


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## Backwoods (Jan 15, 2010)

Nice set up, looking good. However to say, “Finish is better than a band mill!” just tell me that you are hanging around with the wrong bandmills. I ran some walnut that I had milled up thru another mills planner and it came out rougher then it went in.


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## treecycle (Jan 15, 2010)

When I say better than a Bandmill. I mean it, Show me a band mill with a 5 ft throat that does not ever wave or deflect. Hit a nail with one of those and see what happens. With a csm, she will blow on through and slow down but a duller chain makes that much smoother of a finish. This mill was made for wood that would make a bandmill cry. Urban trees that would otherwise be firewood.


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## rmh3481 (Jan 16, 2010)

Very interesting, what kind of investment is in the set up?
Thanks,
Bob


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Whole bunch of time, $600 motor, $1000 container, $1000 bar and sprocket, etc etc multiplied by your current price of steel and squared by beer purchase price


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## Backwoods (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> When I say better than a Bandmill. I mean it, Show me a band mill with a 5 ft throat that does not ever wave or deflect.


Well since you asked, I will show you such a mill.


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Gulp! Wow. O.k now that is a mill! And no I don't think a box of nails would make that mill even whimper. Thanks for the pics


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## BobL (Jan 16, 2010)

It looks like you are using full chisel, with that much grunt I'd use semi chisel and you'd get an even smoother finish.


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## tlbsg (Jan 16, 2010)

good job treecycle am building a mill as well what speed have you got the sprocket going i take it the engine would do about 3600 are you running of eng or stepped up with belts if so what size pulleys sprocket etc


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

No belts here. I am only guessing( will put a tack on it soon) but I bet under full load my motor probably is pulling 2500 rpms times 17 pin times 404 ( which ups the speed over 3/8) euals a whole pile of sawdust quick!

Also I went with Baileys full comp milling chain which is round ground. My research with saw harvesters found that they all run round anyways, so that is what I went with. Hope this Helps.


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## mtngun (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Also I went with Baileys full comp milling chain which is round ground.


The Bailey's milling chain is semi-chisel, or at least the 3/8" is.


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

By round I mean able to be filed on a Silvey 510 round grinder, are we talking about the same thing? I thought about full chisel, but durability is what I thought might be lacking?


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## irishcountry (Jan 16, 2010)

More pics More pics More pics!!! You should get some plans for that and sell em I would love to build something like that someday you could cut some killer table/countertops!!! Very nice setup!!!


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## SilverBox (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> No belts here. I am only guessing( will put a tack on it soon) but I bet under full load my motor probably is pulling 2500 rpms times 17 pin times 404 ( which ups the speed over 3/8) euals a whole pile of sawdust quick!
> 
> Also I went with Baileys full comp milling chain which is round ground. My research with saw harvesters found that they all run round anyways, so that is what I went with. Hope this Helps.



Seems like with the power you have that you could easily be running a much bigger sprocket, not sure where you would get one, but just by the math, I wouldn't be suprised if you could pull a 30-40 pin with the power you have. Does the chain even slow down when you apply the wood with the 17 pin? Seems like it wouln't .


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Just like a chainsaw if I really lean on it the rpms drop and then the Centrifigul clutch cuts out. More chainspeed could be good but, I believe the more chainspeed the more quickly the bar will wear? 

Lucas slabbers use some kind of hyperskip tooth arrangement, and fallers around here that run longer than 36 inch bars use full skip. They say that it clears chips better. With my full comp 5 ft bar buried and with factory rakers set the mill does not seem to have a chip clearing problem. I believe the reason is torque?


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## huskyhank (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Just like a chainsaw if I really lean on it the rpms drop and then the Centrifigul clutch cuts out. More chainspeed could be good but, I believe the more chainspeed the more quickly the bar will wear?
> 
> Lucas slabbers use some kind of hyperskip tooth arrangement, and fallers around here that run longer than 36 inch bars use full skip. They say that it clears chips better. With my full comp 5 ft bar buried and with factory rakers set the mill does not seem to have a chip clearing problem. I believe the reason is torque?



I think you are right and I think the more teeth cutting in the wood the better as long as you have the power to pull them through the cut.

That is one heck of a machine.
I am envious.

You gotta make a video!


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks, and will try to do a video as soon as I sort out a better bar oiler. Just purchesed a automotive style fuel pump and plan on hooking it up to pump the veggie oil generously into the ber groove.


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## BobL (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> By round I mean able to be filed on a Silvey 510 round grinder, are we talking about the same thing? I thought about full chisel, but durability is what I thought might be lacking?



The way a tooth is ground or filed is not necessarily related to it's shape. I'm talking about cutter shape.

Full chisel is very fasting cutting and the cutter edge lasts well, especially in your softwoods but the pointed cutter tip means it leaves a finish like on the right.






Semi-chisel has a more rounded cutter profile so it leaves a finish like on the left. This type of cutter is used in harded dirtier wood.

If the wood is cut slowly with full chisel the surface will always end up with a series of indented scratches from the cutter points where as with the semichisel it will be as series of little peaks from cut intersections. The latter is slightly smoother than the former.

The point is moot because a pass through a thicknesser and they both will disappear but if you occasionally want smoother wood without any finishing then semi is better.


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## BobL (Jan 16, 2010)

SilverBox said:


> Seems like with the power you have that you could easily be running a much bigger sprocket, not sure where you would get one, but just by the math, I wouldn't be suprised if you could pull a 30-40 pin with the power you have. Does the chain even slow down when you apply the wood with the 17 pin? Seems like it wouln't .



17 pin at 2500 rpm with 404 gives ~32 mph so you would have to drop the rakers by factor 1.5 to get the same theoretical cutting speed as a conventional saw with 7 pin 3/8 doing 10,000 rpm.

Problem with going to much bigger sprockets is the chain starts to ride up of the bar, maybe a gear box of some kind would be better?

2500 rpm means its probably also nice and quiet?


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Great visual Mr Bobl. Any suggestions how best to feed oil into the bar oiler hole? Thanks in advance!


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## mtngun (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> By round I mean able to be filed on a Silvey 510 round grinder, are we talking about the same thing?


More or less. I'm pretty sure your Bailey's ripping chain is semi-chisel, round ground. Full chisel can be either round ground or square ground.


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## mtngun (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Great visual Mr Bobl. Any suggestions how best to feed oil into the bar oiler hole? Thanks in advance!


It's not clear from the pics which end of the bar has the oil holes ? They are most needed near the nose, on the cutting side of the bar.


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks Mtngun. It is a double ended bar so both ends are identical. Thinking about oiling both ends, maybe?


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## huskyhank (Jan 16, 2010)

BobL said:


> snipped.........
> 
> Problem with going to much bigger sprockets is the chain starts to ride up of the bar, maybe a gear box of some kind would be better?



That would work without too much trouble if you designed for it on the front end. I'd like to see this animal in operation. If its throwing chips like I think it is, chain speed may not be that big an issue.


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## BobL (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Great visual Mr Bobl. Any suggestions how best to feed oil into the bar oiler hole? Thanks in advance!



Here's the bolt through the bar method which if you are going to use a pump is the way to go. If you don't have space for a bolt you might have to make an adapter plate that is part of the bar clamp mechanism.

You can see I added the aux oiler bolt at the bar nose (at the point after the chain has gone around the hose) which is because on a conventional high reving saw a significant amount of oil is lost at the nose so often very little is left to do its business on the cutting side of the bar. You can see this on a high oil delivery saw like the 3120 (up to 54 mL/min) which loses a lot of oil on the nose.

Now you are running a such low RPM that this should not be an issue for you although using a 5 ft bar I would also use an aux oiler on the nose but a drip method is all that is needed there. I use max oil delivery on the 880 (38 mL/min) plus around 20 to 40 mL/min on the nose depending on the length of the bar being used.

One of the things that most drive sprockets do is fling the (dirty) oil off the chain before it collects a new charge at the chain exit point. Most of the oil comes off with the sawdust but the standard drive sprocket being a smaller radius of curvature operating at high RPM is also very effective in flinging the dirty oil off the inner parts of the chain but you have neither of those so it will be interesting to see how it goes. My initial guess is because of your overall large sprocket / low RPM operation you wont need much oil if you cut clean wood but if the wood gets dirty I would up the flow rate. However, maybe you do need more oil as looking at this picture there is a fair bit of bar wear there - was this run without oil?






And looking at your chain it is semichisel.


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Wow Bobl that is close-up. You can definitely see that my drip method with hydraulic oil was not good. Would oiling both ends be excessive if I can oil the chain right as it enters the cut? Thanks


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

If you round file a full chisel chain is it more durable?


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## BobL (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Wow Bobl that is close-up. You can definitely see that my drip method with hydraulic oil was not good. Would oiling both ends be excessive if I can oil the chain right as it enters the cut? Thanks



Nope definitely not excessive, you can see the groove already cut into your bar.

Anyway- you can always turn it off at one end. But it will be mighty annoying if a piece of wood turns out to be much harder than you think and you have to stop and make an auxiliary oiler.


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## treecycle (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks Bobl, thats what I will do. I think I can use brake lines to distribute the oil to both bar tips. My specific reason for using veggie oil is because my tree service re-sells our chipped up trees as mulch. With the mill making so much sawdust I hope to just shovel that into the mix. Thanks Treecycle


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## gr8scott72 (Jan 16, 2010)

We still want to see some pictures of the whole machine. You've described it but I'd still love to see the bigger picture.

Good stuff btw.


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## mikeb1079 (Jan 16, 2010)

*overall pics*

+ 1 for pics on the overall design. cool idea, btw.


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## mtngun (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> If you round file a full chisel chain is it more durable?


The last time I commented on that subject the square chisel loving crowd (not a very large crowd) jumped all over me.

Suffice it to say, your Baileys ripping chain is highly appropriate for a chainsaw mill.

Thanks for sharing your project. You have some original ideas.


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 16, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Fired up the 4 stroke CSM today. Wow is right!
> 
> Pulled a 5 foot bar full comp with power to spare .
> 
> Filled the parking lot with sawdust, too. Blew through some Cherry and then onto a 4 ft Doug Fir. Finish is better than a band mill! PIcs are on the way. Cheers



Nice machine. I think this is a great way to go for chainsaw milling. I have seen one like yours and the gearing was improved through a belt and pulley arrangement. It allowed him to fairly easily change his chain speed until he found the right pulley ratios for his work.

As for the finish being better than a bandmill, as Backwoods said, you're not hanging around the right bandmills or sawyers. My bandmill will consistently produce a finish considerably better than that. I ran a CSM for many years, and even on milling Alder with the CSM, which I found always produced the best finish of all the species native to the PNW, the bandmill will beat it.


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## mountainlake (Jan 17, 2010)

The finish is no big deal, it's going to get planed. The extra lumber you get from a bandmill will about pay for the cost of sawing it. Steve


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## Backwoods (Jan 17, 2010)

I use some pieces that I do not run thru a planner such as out door benches where a natural look is desired. Moreover, when you exceed the width that can be cut on a bandmill a chainsaw mill becomes the next option for me. I would like to see my chainsaw mill cutting as smooth as treecycle has his cutting as that looks to me like a well-tuned setup. I do like the small pile of granular sawdust that results from milling a log with a bandmill over the large bags of curly chainsaw shavings that would come from the same log, but then again I would like to have about a dozen different sawmill configurations so that I can mill anything and everything as efficiently as possible.


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## mountainlake (Jan 18, 2010)

It would be nice to have a CSM with a 6 foot bar to knock the big logs down to size. If you want a real nice finish with a bandsaw put on a new blade and cut as slow as a CSM. Cutting pine the other day with a blade with a bent tooth the band was moving ahead 2-1/2" for every revolution of the blade. Steve


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 19, 2010)

Just need a good mill with a properly sharpened and set blade (and no need to travel slow on a bandmill). 

Western Red Cedar is the first picture and Douglas fir is the second; these are the surface finishes I get regularly.


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## mountainlake (Jan 19, 2010)

Yes bandmills give a nice finish with a good blade at high feed rates but the slower you cut the better the finish, with a chainsaw mill the slow feed rate results in a good finish. If for some reason you want a good finish and aren't going to plane just put on a good blade and cut a little slower. Steve


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## treecycle (Jan 23, 2010)

Little, Alder, Cherry,and Pine today


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## BobL (Jan 23, 2010)

treecycle said:


> Little, Alder, Cherry,and Pine today



Great pics - thanks for posting.


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## Backwoods (Jan 23, 2010)

There are some nice slabs in the bunch, and that is where your mill shines.





This is a stack of 110, 5/8” x 4” boards with a few 6”. This is where the bandmill shines, they all came out of a nice 24” log. The narrow kerf with this many cuts in one log adds to the recovery, rather then the sawdust pile. Like I say I would like to have a whole assortment of sawmills because they each have there strong points. 
I have a large Doug fir that is coming up that I am looking for a swing mill in the area that would be interested in milling it up.


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