# Climbing question for you guys



## adronetree (Aug 18, 2013)

I used to climb when I was young for a year or so. Then I hired guys better and faster than me to climb and I stayed on the ground directing or running the Bobcat for 12 years.
Now I have moved to Norway and hiring climbers isn't an option, I am the climber again now. Relearning at 40.

I don't have too much trouble but I've found I am quite a bit better and even faster running a double line/blakes than I am climbing with spikes so thats what I'm doing the majority of the time. Basically, I am spikeless climbing even when its not needed.

I seem to be doing the opposite of what I learned in the past. Originally when I started I didn't even run a safety line but only lanyard/spikes with no climbing rope...

As long as there is a spot to set a rope then I am moving up and down with the rope and only using my spikes and lanyard for positioning or rotating and or extra attachment point when I need to move my rope or when I'm ready to make a cut.

My lanyard seems to be in the way when I'm going up or down anymore so most of the time it is not connected.
The way I learned along time ago was spikes/lanyard and then the rope as safety unless the tree needed to be spikeless for pruning or whatever. All the guys who ever worked for me climb that way as well.

Do you guys think I am getting into a bad or dangerous habit by relying primarily on my rope rather than on my spikes/lanyard?
I question the safety of it it myself but I do like working with the rope alot better than the constant impact of the spikes and keeping the lanyard connected is an extra pain in the ass for me to keep moving it.
Thanks,
A


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## imagineero (Aug 18, 2013)

I can't imagine you're a whizz on the rope if you've just started back at climbing at 40, so you must be average or slow... and if you're slower on spikes than that then your spiking technique must be pretty bad. Yeah there are guys who compete at the world class level footlocking that can get up a rope quicker than a guy could spike it, but for 95% of climbers, spiking is going to be faster and easier. You need both techniques to work effectively and safely. Having a rope set while spiking is a great practice to be in, and having spikes will let you work safer than you could without. 

Start by making sure your spikes are properly sharpened. Blunt spikes won't get you anywhere. Try to watch other guys spiking, and get someone experienced to critique you if you can. In general, I'd say beginners tend to have blunt spikes, keep themselves in too close to the tree (bad spike angle), keep their lanyard too low on the tree (lots of extra strain on your back/legs) and move forwards/backwards too much when flipping their lanyard (causing themselves to gaff out). 

Shaun


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## Carburetorless (Aug 18, 2013)

Climbing via rope with your lanyard attached to the tree would only slow you down, because yoiu ahve to stop at every limb and reset your lanyard above it. If you're using a quality arborist rope in good condition and have it anchored properly there is no reason you can't or shouldn't climb rope only until you reach your work station, and then lanyard in once yoiu're there.

I won't use spikes for climbing unless it's necessary, mostly for positioning where spikes are the best/only option, but for ascending the tree spikes are just too hard on my joints/knees/hips, they put everything in an uncomfortable bind. I would imagine that guys who have climbed for years on spikes end up with a lot of joint problems. 

As for me, spikes are great for positioning quickly/easily, but not so great for climbing.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 18, 2013)

It has only been this year that I started using a rope a lot and I topped my first tree in 83 or 82 . Properly sharpened gaffs/ spurs are super important. Some guys work hard to get the teeth on their saw sharp. But ignore their spurs. They both have to cut bark and wood to work right .


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## adronetree (Aug 19, 2013)

*Hey*

Hmm, yeah I wouldn't say I'm a whizz...after watching a friend here who was the European speed climbing champion I would say most everyone I have seen is not a "whizz". 
I have employed climbers daily for 14 years or more and done a bit of climbing during the time. And yes I would say I'm somewhere between average and slow with spikes but I'm dam near the speed of any climber I've ever used when it comes to hip thrusting or walking the tree with the blakes.....Footlocking I don't even bother with...i think its more trouble than its worth... and I'm usually wearing spikes anyway....

Thanks for the advice or reminder on sharpening....its something I very rarely do so I'll pay more attention to that. I use geckos but lately i've been experimenting with wolf claws which have wider bulkier points which seem harder to sink for me. I think the wood here is more dense than Georgia as well. Not too much bark. Most guys here are using pole gaffs basically. You'll never sink longer ones enough to need them.

I'm not too worried about super production speed at this point. Things work a little different here. Back home thats why I hire guys who are super fast climbers to knock out 10 or 20 trees a day.... I'd be lucky to climb, cut, and process 3 or 4 sixty footers in a day here. There's usually only 2 of us as well.
Here every tree gets cut into firewood length and usually on the job, almost everything we would chip they use and keep here in Norway...So the ground work is much slower. Most every job is a hand carry and every piece is a 12 inch cut or so to fit in their ovens....

I agree with you that your chances of something going wrong are reduced when you always have the flip line attached and spiked in though. Highly unlikely but I guess the rope could break or you could cut through it maybe but that cable's never going to let you fall....




imagineero said:


> I can't imagine you're a whizz on the rope if you've just started back at climbing at 40, so you must be average or slow... and if you're slower on spikes than that then your spiking technique must be pretty bad. Yeah there are guys who compete at the world class level footlocking that can get up a rope quicker than a guy could spike it, but for 95% of climbers, spiking is going to be faster and easier. You need both techniques to work effectively and safely. Having a rope set while spiking is a great practice to be in, and having spikes will let you work safer than you could without.
> 
> Start by making sure your spikes are properly sharpened. Blunt spikes won't get you anywhere. Try to watch other guys spiking, and get someone experienced to critique you if you can. In general, I'd say beginners tend to have blunt spikes, keep themselves in too close to the tree (bad spike angle), keep their lanyard too low on the tree (lots of extra strain on your back/legs) and move forwards/backwards too much when flipping their lanyard (causing themselves to gaff out).
> 
> Shaun


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## tramp bushler (Aug 19, 2013)

So people actually do the hip thrust climbing method????? 
I'm asking because I don't know. 
I guess with spurs on it makes sense. . 

Anyone have any vids of it??

Adronetree, from what I have seen the Wolf spurs are quite a bit wider at the points than some spurs. If I loose a bunch of weight I would like to try the Geko's. The look like they would stick well. 

When Was in my 20 s I could go up 80' on a spruce pole in 30 seconds with flipline and spurs. Can't do that now tho.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 19, 2013)

Yeah Tramp, hip thrusting on a blake's is probably the most common method. Most guys down here never go beyond that. It's all arm strength, which is why I prefer srt. I'll still hip thrust if I'm only going up twenty feet or so, but that's about it for me anymore. 

To the op, trust your rope, it'll hold ya and can be faster than spurs depending on what you're doing. What type of trees are you doing mainly? Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 19, 2013)

Is anyone going to ask the OP if what he does is only removals?
:msp_confused:
Jeff


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 19, 2013)

Hey OP, are you just doing removals?


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 19, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Hey OP, are you just doing removals?



 

Good one Jeff,,
Jeff :msp_wink:


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 19, 2013)

I aim to please... well, mostly I aim to miss the house... or the fence... or the neighbor's house or fence, or.... well, you get the drift....


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## Carburetorless (Aug 19, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Is anyone going to ask the OP if what he does is only removals?
> :msp_confused:
> Jeff



Hey Jeff, got any Butter?!


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 19, 2013)

Carburetorless said:


> Hey Jeff, got any Butter?!



Why?, What do you need? Belly butter or scented floral?
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## miko0618 (Aug 19, 2013)

i trust the rope more than the spikes and lanyard. I don't know why you wouldn't. I use my spikes and lanyard to walk up the tree when I hip thrust. the same as you would spike up a tree except my hands are on the rope not the lanyard. I prefer to work from the ropes. I value the spikes ability to give me foot holds. you can limb walk about anything with spikes on. they work best used together. if I had to leave one or the other at home, it would be the spikes.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 19, 2013)

No comment. 

I should change my handle to Spurs R me.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 19, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> i trust the rope more than the spikes and lanyard. I don't know why you wouldn't. I use my spikes and lanyard to walk up the tree when I hip thrust. the same as you would spike up a tree except my hands are on the rope not the lanyard. I prefer to work from the ropes. I value the spikes ability to give me foot holds. you can limb walk about anything with spikes on. they work best used together. if I had to leave one or the other at home, it would be the spikes.



So do you primarily do removals or pruning ect. ??


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 19, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> No comment.
> 
> I should change my handle to Spurs R me.



And I will be the first to say when it comes to spurs, you da man.


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## miko0618 (Aug 20, 2013)

I do removals mostly.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 20, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> So people actually do the hip thrust climbing method?????
> I'm asking because I don't know.
> .



All we do, all day every day. I have yet to try SRT, want to, but I am in pretty good physical shape, minus the major spine injury's, but hey, who's counting.............3, so I stay with the old ways, like it too much. 
At 42, I weigh around 137lbs, have a 8 pack, looking for the 10, and can hand over hand for hours. Teaching my kids the same way. Cept I am making them learn olD school first. I have not even taught them foot locking yet, just to the point to belay the line with their feet. Just this week I let my oldest clip his seat together instead of traditional one side to one side on the seat. I have foot ascender and some other fancy gadgets, but they stay on the truck most of the time. The only new thing that I have added as of late was the caterpillar friction saver, I really love those things, make it so much easier, very little friction. My middle boy, who has taken the most liking got it, is going to be real good, kid is 180 and freakin jacked! I made him hip thrust about 40ft last week into a birch over a spruce, so as he was going up, the spruce was poking him, so he went as fast as he could. Once he got to his destination and looked back, he was surprised to see how far he went in such little time. You should try it tramp, would be a quick way to drop some pounds and get into that saddle ya want!
I hate spikes too, I use them when I have to, but even on removals, if I have I line set, off come the spikes. I use them mainly when bucking the log on a removal when there is no bark and its hard to keep a line in place or when doing a removal on a "pruned" tree that was actually lion tailed so bad the tree dies. Some of those long aas, strait and smooth branches are not easy to get out to with out any lower branches to climb on


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## imagineero (Aug 20, 2013)

I haven't had lion tacos in sooooooo long


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## tramp bushler (Aug 21, 2013)

I've actually done a little bit of it which is why I know how tired it makes me. I've spent so long packin a power saw. That my pull down muscles aren't in very good shape. My lift up muscles tho. 
I have no problem with them. 
I've found some nice little practice trees at home. I plan on getting good srt rope walking by next season.


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## adronetree (Aug 22, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> All we do, all day every day. I have yet to try SRT, want to, but I am in pretty good physical shape, minus the major spine injury's, but hey, who's counting.............3, so I stay with the old ways, like it too much.
> At 42, I weigh around 137lbs, have a 8 pack, looking for the 10, and can hand over hand for hours. Teaching my kids the same way. Cept I am making them learn olD school first. I have not even taught them foot locking yet, just to the point to belay the line with their feet. Just this week I let my oldest clip his seat together instead of traditional one side to one side on the seat. I have foot ascender and some other fancy gadgets, but they stay on the truck most of the time. The only new thing that I have added as of late was the caterpillar friction saver, I really love those things, make it so much easier, very little friction. My middle boy, who has taken the most liking got it, is going to be real good, kid is 180 and freakin jacked! I made him hip thrust about 40ft last week into a birch over a spruce, so as he was going up, the spruce was poking him, so he went as fast as he could. Once he got to his destination and looked back, he was surprised to see how far he went in such little time. You should try it tramp, would be a quick way to drop some pounds and get into that saddle ya want!
> I hate spikes too, I use them when I have to, but even on removals, if I have I line set, off come the spikes. I use them mainly when bucking the log on a removal when there is no bark and its hard to keep a line in place or when doing a removal on a "pruned" tree that was actually lion tailed so bad the tree dies. Some of those long aas, strait and smooth branches are not easy to get out to with out any lower branches to climb on


Did you say 137? Really? I'm about 6ft at 220. I've got more like a 24 pack going for 25.... J/k I'm in good shape but I am heavy as a block of lead. I don't have any trouble climbing the rope, like you it won't tire me either..
Cool you are teaching your kids a skill they can fall back on if they need to one day.
Wish I could get my teenage stepdaughters to try climbing or to do anything I like to do for that matter.


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## adronetree (Aug 22, 2013)

*Hmm*

Well sounds like I should just keep on with I'm doing by everyone's opinion.. Its different but if it works I guess it works. Sorry I haven't replied in a few days I work alot and I'm 6-9 hours ahead of you guys depending on where you live. . Tramp, I might be 10 hours ahead of you not sure??, we were in Alaska a year in 2004 but I can't remember the time zone.
What is an OP???


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 22, 2013)

Original Poster. You, in this case.


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## Carburetorless (Aug 22, 2013)

adronetree said:


> Well sounds like I should just keep on with I'm doing by everyone's opinion.. Its different but if it works I guess it works. Sorry I haven't replied in a few days I work alot and I'm 6-9 hours ahead of you guys depending on where you live. . Tramp, I might be 10 hours ahead of you not sure??, we were in Alaska a year in 2004 but I can't remember the time zone.
> What is an OP???



Orange Pencil?
Odd Position?
Oily Popcorn? Jeff, anything to add?


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## beastmaster (Aug 22, 2013)

What type of trees are you climbing mostly out there? On single trunk vertical trees like pines and cedars spikes rule for the most part. I learned on spikes and I feel real comfortable on them. If you neglect climbing on them when its advantages you'll only be hurting your self. The same goes if all you do is climb on spikes.
Don't start back climbing by developing bad habits, and leaning on one Technic. If your using your climbing line tied off above you, maybe you don't even need spikes. If your doing a tree with limbs far a part you could probably move faster using just spike and a lanyard, tieing your climbing line below your lanyard when doing cuts for safety.
Point is each has an advantage some times over the other. If your not comfortable on spikes with a lanyard, I would recommend forcing your self to climb on them more tell you are. Age doesn't have a lot to do with it, you can teach old dogs new tricks. Good luck


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## kyle goddard (Aug 22, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> What type of trees are you climbing mostly out there? On single trunk vertical trees like pines and cedars spikes rule for the most part. I learned on spikes and I feel real comfortable on them. If you neglect climbing on them when its advantages you'll only be hurting your self. The same goes if all you do is climb on spikes.
> Don't start back climbing by developing bad habits, and leaning on one Technic. If your using your climbing line tied off above you, maybe you don't even need spikes. If your doing a tree with limbs far a part you could probably move faster using just spike and a lanyard, tieing your climbing line below your lanyard when doing cuts for safety.
> Point is each has an advantage some times over the other. If your not comfortable on spikes with a lanyard, I would recommend forcing your self to climb on them more tell you are. Age doesn't have a lot to do with it, you can teach old dogs new tricks. Good luck



You got me thinking, a few weeks ago i took my lanyard with a grillon and added a hitch pully/ prusik to the other end of it. So i sort of have a ce lanyar. Now using both ends on a spar or single lead tree, would that qualify.as two tie in points?


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## adronetree (Aug 23, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> What type of trees are you climbing mostly out there? On single trunk vertical trees like pines and cedars spikes rule for the most part. I learned on spikes and I feel real comfortable on them. If you neglect climbing on them when its advantages you'll only be hurting your self. The same goes if all you do is climb on spikes.
> Don't start back climbing by developing bad habits, and leaning on one Technic. If your using your climbing line tied off above you, maybe you don't even need spikes. If your doing a tree with limbs far a part you could probably move faster using just spike and a lanyard, tieing your climbing line below your lanyard when doing cuts for safety.
> Point is each has an advantage some times over the other. If your not comfortable on spikes with a lanyard, I would recommend forcing your self to climb on them more tell you are. Age doesn't have a lot to do with it, you can teach old dogs new tricks. Good luck


Well thats the difference between Geaorgia and Norway. Georgia we have alot of tall pines/poplars with space between limbs and a long way to the top...Here in Norway the trees tend to be much shorter with alot more canopy. They are 40-60ft tall bushes really, limbs everywhere. Once you are 10 ft off the ground they start bushing out.
They have some type of oak similar to a red oak but shorter and more limbs, a variety of birch and a species of ash. They have something related to poplar but smaller and thinner not like the big tulips or yellow poplars we have back home. They have a type of pine tree too but nothing like the ones in the US and not as common. 40-60ft with crooked heavy tops and alot of twisted heavy limbs.
Then alot of different types of smaller evergreens like spruce etc....
I saw a job the other day a guy did removing a cherry tree.. Leaning over the back of a barn on a hill. 40-45 ft tall. 18 inch diameter. 8 or 9 limbs lowered then bucking down the trunk. Cut into firewood length and then hand carry to the truck and chipper 50ft away after that.
They had a tractor with a pto chipper and a 5 yard chip/dump truck. It took the guys a full day to do the tree. Back home me or any of you guys probably would have knocked it out in about 2 hours or less with 3 men.
I found out they charged around 25,000kr for the job. Thats somewhere around $4200.00....
Very interesting. Not bad. 
If I could just unlearn American prices maybe I'll do alright here. Feels wrong to me charging someone twice as much as I'm used to but I guess its a different economy.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 23, 2013)

kyle goddard said:


> You got me thinking, a few weeks ago i took my lanyard with a grillon and added a hitch pully/ prusik to the other end of it. So i sort of have a ce lanyar. Now using both ends on a spar or single lead tree, would that qualify.as two tie in points?



Technically, one of your tie in's needs to be a safety line long enough to get you to the ground.


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## kyle goddard (Aug 23, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Technically, one of your tie in's needs to be a safety line long enough to get you to the ground.



Thats what I thought was said in a seminar at the expo in Baltimore. I guess in an emergency situation that would come in real handy.


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## beastmaster (Aug 23, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Technically, one of your tie in's needs to be a safety line long enough to get you to the ground.



Very true, and it makes good sense. When your making trunk cuts on trees using spikes and a lanyard, tieing in with your climbing line below your lanyard gives you a second chance at life if you were to cut your lanyard, I use a gri gri and choke the tree with my climbing line, this also gives you some protection in the unlikelihood the tree split, but more important if you were to cut your self or get crushed or........you could hopefully belay your self down quickly before you bled out. 
I only started doing this these last few years, but it should be automatic. Maybe not practical for limbing limbs on the way up, unless you got all day to do it.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 23, 2013)

Best movie ever: Ronin, with Robert Deniro, for these two reasons, aside from the fact it was a great movie, for these two quotes:

"Lady, I don't ever walk into a place I don't know how to get out of." Tree guy translation: "I don't ever climb a tree I don't know how to get out of, one-handed and injured if need be."
Think on your rig. I got nailed with a 300lb oak log the groundie was supposed to let run and didn't. Came back at me and dislocated three fingers on my left hand, and hurt. a lot. Because I was tied in with a proper lifeline tie-in, I was able to relaease my secondary, rappel down, and deck him, all with one hand. If I hadn't had an easy way to the ground, he might of escaped from that incident unharmed.

Second best quote: " When there is doubt, there is no doubt.". If you don't know you have a 100% safe way to the ground at all times, there will be doubt at some point, or your just dumb, or don't know any better. Always have a way to the ground, be it bees, or hidden defects, or idiot groundies. But if it can happen it will happen, and they call it a lifeline for a reason.


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## beastmaster (Aug 24, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Best movie ever: Ronin, with Robert Deniro, for these two reasons, aside from the fact it was a great movie, for these two quotes:
> 
> "Lady, I don't ever walk into a place I don't know how to get out of." Tree guy translation: "I don't ever climb a tree I don't know how to get out of, one-handed and injured if need be."
> Think on your rig. I got nailed with a 300lb oak log the groundie was supposed to let run and didn't. Came back at me and dislocated three fingers on my left hand, and hurt. a lot. Because I was tied in with a proper lifeline tie-in, I was able to relaease my secondary, rappel down, and deck him, all with one hand. If I hadn't had an easy way to the ground, he might of escaped from that incident unharmed.
> ...



I like your style Jolly Logger. I too once decked a groundie, but it was after I had to pull up a 50 lb branch that tangled in my climbing line 60 ft. He was off smoking a cigarette. I'm a lot more understanding these day but stupid still pisses me off.


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## adronetree (Aug 24, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> Very true, and it makes good sense. When your making trunk cuts on trees using spikes and a lanyard, tieing in with your climbing line below your lanyard gives you a second chance at life if you were to cut your lanyard, I use a gri gri and choke the tree with my climbing line, this also gives you some protection in the unlikelihood the tree split, but more important if you were to cut your self or get crushed or........you could hopefully belay your self down quickly before you bled out.
> I only started doing this these last few years, but it should be automatic. Maybe not practical for limbing limbs on the way up, unless you got all day to do it.


Beastmaster I have been watching an Australian guy on youtube using the figure 8 in the same way you are using a gri gri I guess?
, he chokes the tree with a running bowline leaving a long tail to move it and soft locks the figure 8 allowing him to escape. Is this sensible or practical in your mind?

Sorry for the stupid questions.
I knew a few guys who were really good climbers that are dead or seriously injured and I've seen hundreds of near misses so I'm spending alot of time watching, reading, and asking questions about everything as I start climbing regularly. Most every climbing death story I've heard came down to something they forgot to do or skipped at that moment intentionally taking risks or accidentally. Alot of times it seems to be indirectly related to drugs or alcohol and them not being with it mentally the next day which I've seen myself about a hundred times. Other times maybe their mind was just in the wrong place. 
When I was 20 I just did it without thought or fear but now restarting at 40 I'm trying to be smart about it. 
If I weren't in Norway I would just make the most logical decision and hire climbers as I've always done but I don't have that choice here so.
Maybe If I can get a tree business going well here in a year or two then I can import an American at double pay from what hes used to (unskilled laborers are making $300 a day) but for now I have to get it done myself...


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 24, 2013)

adronetree said:


> Beastmaster I have been watching an Australian guy on youtube using the figure 8 in the same way you are using a gri gri I guess?
> , he chokes the tree with a running bowline leaving a long tail to move it and soft locks the figure 8 allowing him to escape. Is this sensible or practical in your mind?
> 
> Sorry for the stupid questions.
> ...



I don't think they're stupid questions at all. The fact that you're on here at all asking them speaks well for you. That's what this site is all about to me, sharing knowledge to make this a safer business for all. I do think that as your skills and experience grow your definition of what a "good climber" really is will change It sounds to me like when you were in Georgia your opinion of a good climber, like most business owners, was really a fast climber. Those good, dead climbers sound to me like fast lucky climbers that got away with some unsafe practices and habits until the law of averages caught up with them. Stay safe and never be afraid to ask a question that could save your life. Jeff


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## adronetree (Aug 24, 2013)

You certainly have a point. When I was early twenties almost everyone I watched weren't using climbing ropes at all. Spikes and flipline only. They thought it was a waste of time and effort setting a rope or moving it around unless they absolutely needed it for limb walking or something.. I have always judged climbers by their speed and ability not to wack houses or fences etc. Never really given too much thought to their technique with regard to their own safety. I guess I always figured their own safety was more their own personal business. 
I sure do care about it when its me up there though. Most of the guys I worked with seem to have no fear of it. I do right now.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 24, 2013)

My dad told me a good story a while back that has really stuck with me. When he was learning to drive, he had a bad habit of tailgating, as most new drivers do. My Grandpa didn't yell at him, just pointed it out and said," You can get away with that once, even twice, maybe a thousand times. But if you keep doing it, you will end up rearending somebody." There are so many tailgating habits in this industry. Some guys get away with them for years, decades even. But that doesn't make them safe. By the Way, my dad has never been in an accident. You brought up another good point. When I climb, I climb. Period. Nothing else matters. And when I start getting tired, and start thinking about shortcuts, I come down. The tree will still be there tomorrow, but if I start taking shortcuts, I may not be. Jeff


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## r0ck1r0ck2 (Aug 24, 2013)

Hear Hear!


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## tramp bushler (Aug 24, 2013)

I yell guys that look up at me wondering what I'm doing ( with an attitude of Hurry Up) . That if they don't like the way I'm doing it, they can come up and help. 
No one has yet. 
I've gotten to where I like having my climbing line around the tree on removals. But I hadn't thot of using a running bowline to my Gri Gri. That's a good idea. It would be more of a compact unit than the hitch hiker for that application. 
The problem with an 8 is you need 2 hands to operate it. The Gri Gri or the hh or the Unicender can be operated 1 hand.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 24, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> I like your style Jolly Logger. I too once decked a groundie, but it was after I had to pull up a 50 lb branch that tangled in my climbing line 60 ft. He was off smoking a cigarette. I'm a lot more understanding these day but stupid still pisses me off.




I get pretty kurt with my ground guys if they are not keeping an eye on what's going on with me and my rope also. 
Really maddening when they can spend all day on their phone and not do what I need them to.


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## adronetree (Aug 25, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I yell guys that look up at me wondering what I'm doing ( with an attitude of Hurry Up) . That if they don't like the way I'm doing it, they can come up and help.
> No one has yet.
> I've gotten to where I like having my climbing line around the tree on removals. But I hadn't thot of using a running bowline to my Gri Gri. That's a good idea. It would be more of a compact unit than the hitch hiker for that application.
> The problem with an 8 is you need 2 hands to operate it. The Gri Gri or the hh or the Unicender can be operated 1 hand.



Heres the video I mentioned:
lanyard techniques - YouTube


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 25, 2013)

Those are all good solid techniques


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## Carburetorless (Aug 25, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> The problem with an 8 is you need 2 hands to operate it. The Gri Gri or the hh or the Unicender can be operated 1 hand.



I can do the same thing with my Blake's if I use a biner with it.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 26, 2013)

How do you set it up?


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## Houston Tree (Aug 26, 2013)

*I like the rope -*

I only use a lanyard when I am climbing the tree for the first time to set up my ropes. The lanyard is really good for the initial climb. Its actually a must, unless you use a throw line to get your ropes in the tree. Other than for setting up your ropes, I think the lanyard is not very productive. It slows everything down. A blakes, if tied correctly is the best knot to use and very safe. I like to use my spikes always. They speed things up and make it good to get in positions that you can't get into without spikes. The other reason to use a lanyard and spikes is after all the limbs have been removed and its time to take down the trunk. Gotta use the lanyard and spikes to be efficient, but I'm sure you already know this...

Also think about this - When you are in the tree connected to a lanyard. If you were to have a accident and loose your footing and became badly injured. say injuring a leg. How would you get your footing back to undo your lanyard to get out of the tree? Always use a rope for this added caution and easily repel yourself down the tree quickly. It only takes about 10 minutes of hanging in the tree in your harness and you will be close to dying because of the blood being cut off from your legs.


Hope my comments helped. I definitely think a rope is the best and fastest way.


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## Houston Tree (Aug 26, 2013)

*good fast climber opinion*

My opinion about a good fast climber is this: 

A good climber is a smart climber, a fast climber is a experienced climber. Some of my guys are super fast, but they have years of experience, and I have other guys who try to be fast but are really kind of dangerous. You can be fast and safe. That is what is a good climber in my opinion. 

Experience is what determines a good climber, not how fast they are. they think everything thru. I don't want my guys trying to be fast and cut off a whole limb when it should've come down in pieces. most cuts are faster in the tree in my opinion anyways. I like everything that can be cut in the tree to be cut up in the tree. so when it hits the ground its ready to be chipped or hauled.

Cutting corners by my employees is completely unacceptable for me, but if you are a business owner of a small tree company and you do most of the work yourself or even if you have workers doing the work. If you cut corners and have unsafe practices. You shouldn't even own a business or be in this line of work. What are you going to save? 3 minutes of work to cut that corner? do it right and you will have happy customers and quality services.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 26, 2013)

Houston Tree said:


> I only use a lanyard when I am climbing the tree for the first time to set up my ropes. The lanyard is really good for the initial climb. Its actually a must, unless you use a throw line to get your ropes in the tree. Other than for setting up your ropes, I think the lanyard is not very productive. It slows everything down. A blakes, if tied correctly is the best knot to use and very safe. I like to use my spikes always. They speed things up and make it good to get in positions that you can't get into without spikes. The other reason to use a lanyard and spikes is after all the limbs have been removed and its time to take down the trunk. Gotta use the lanyard and spikes to be efficient, but I'm sure you already know this...
> 
> Also think about this - When you are in the tree connected to a lanyard. If you were to have a accident and loose your footing and became badly injured. say injuring a leg. How would you get your footing back to undo your lanyard to get out of the tree? Always use a rope for this added caution and easily repel yourself down the tree quickly. It only takes about 10 minutes of hanging in the tree in your harness and you will be close to dying because of the blood being cut off from your legs.
> 
> ...



So, when would you use a throwline?


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## Carburetorless (Aug 26, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I get pretty kurt with my ground guys if they are not keeping an eye on what's going on with me and my rope also.
> Really maddening when they can spend all day on their phone and not do what I need them to.



Solution: Phones stay in the truck or groundies stay home.


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## Carburetorless (Aug 26, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> How do you set it up?



On the Left is my split-tail, on the Right beside where it's clipped into my harness is another biner with the climb line clipped down through it and brought around under and clipped in again. You can where my right hand is on the blake's as usual for descending.

This is for descending only, can't climb up with it, but it makes descending down through thick canopy a lot easier, because you have your other hand free to push off of limbs and position your self as needed or whatever else you might need a free hand for like dialing your phone so you tell your groundie to get off of his and do something.


View attachment 311684


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## Houston Tree (Aug 26, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> So, when would you use a throwline?




I dont know the difference between a lanyard and a flipline. I figured they were the same thing all this time. i guess I technically use a adjustable flipline.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 26, 2013)

Houston Tree said:


> I dont know the difference between a lanyard and a flipline. I figured they were the same thing all this time. i guess I technically use a adjustable flipline.



Jolly Jeff asked you a question. 'When do you throw a 'throw-line'
Jeff


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 26, 2013)

Carburetorless said:


> On the Left is my split-tail, on the Right beside where it's clipped into my harness is another biner with the climb line clipped down through it and brought around under and clipped in again. You can where my right hand is on the blake's as usual for descending.
> 
> This is for descending only, can't climb up with it, but it makes descending down through thick canopy a lot easier, because you have your other hand free to push off of limbs and position your self as needed or whatever else you might need a free hand for like dialing your phone so you tell your groundie to get off of his and do something.
> 
> ...



I think this could be cool, but I haven't climbed with a split tail in so long I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it. Can you take another pic maybe a little further out? I couldn't quite chase the rope path. But it looks really interesting! Jeff


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 27, 2013)

Carburetorless said:


> On the Left is my split-tail, on the Right beside where it's clipped into my harness is another biner with the climb line clipped down through it and brought around under and clipped in again. You can where my right hand is on the blake's as usual for descending.
> 
> This is for descending only, can't climb up with it, but it makes descending down through thick canopy a lot easier, because you have your other hand free to push off of limbs and position your self as needed or whatever else you might need a free hand for like dialing your phone so you tell your groundie to get off of his and do something.
> 
> ...





jefflovstrom said:


> Jolly Jeff asked you a question. 'When do you throw a 'throw-line'
> Jeff



Jolly Jeff, huh? Well, I guess Grumpy Jeff was already taken.... and yeah, you saw where I was goin with the question, ... you're to smart for me.:msp_tongue:


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## Carburetorless (Aug 27, 2013)

@ Jolly Jeff lol

It's actually quite simple, if you look at my avatar, it's the same rig only the biners aren't clipped into the D-Ring on the harness(on the avatar).

The tail of the climb line, below the second biner, you bring your hand in behind it on the inside and sort of cradle it between your thumb and index finger as you reach up and grab the knot. 

You belay it at the knot, you can stop by squeezing the running end of the rope or by releasing the knot, so if you panic you'll squeeze the knot and stop, and if you let of the knot the knot will set and stop you.

It's pretty foolproof.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 27, 2013)

Carburetorless said:


> @ Jolly Jeff lol
> 
> It's actually quite simple,  if you look at my avatar, it's the same rig only the biners aren't clipped into the D-Ring on the harness(on the avatar).
> 
> ...



So the wrap on the biner kind of adds enough friction to let a blake's work on an srt rig, if I'm reading you right? At least for descent? I can see the challenges for ascending, but like in a spar choking situation it'll work as a secondary and not lock up? I kinda like it, I would think the same principle would work with a vt. Gonna have to play with that, might even cut a splittail tomorrow just to see. Correct any of my assumptions before I bust my ass tommorrow, though, if ya don't mind, lol. Jolly

There we go, I'll just sign off Jolly, instead of Jeff , so nobody confuses me with ole grumpy


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## Houston Tree (Aug 27, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jolly Jeff asked you a question. 'When do you throw a 'throw-line'
> Jeff



Either Im lacking sleep or I cant read anymore, but I completely misread the original question. My apologies. Ok so to address the actual question. 

When do I throw a throw-line, The easier answer is when do I not throw a throwline. I use a throw line at almost every tree I tackle. There are many reasons to use a throw-line. When I want to climb a tree, I try to throw a line as high in the tree as I can. Obviously I try to throw it over a strong enough branch to support my weight without question. I tie the end of the throw-line to my climbing rope and use the throw-line to pull my climbing rope into the tree. Then I strap on my spikes and tie a blake's to my harness and start climbing. No need for a lanyard or a flipline. It is much faster than climbing with a flipline. We mainly performing Houston tree removal so we are climbing pines and oaks mostly. The pines are very tall here with limited limbs to use a throw-line, because the branches are so high up on the 100' trees. In these cases I definitely use a flipline because a flipline works more efficiently.

Another use for a throw-line is when felling trees you don't need to climb to top or remove branches before felling. If I am felling a tree I hardly ever fell a tree without using a ground guy to pull a rope to steer the tree. I can cut a notch and lay a tree on a Dixie cup, but it takes about 2 extra minutes to throw a line and pull a rope to make sure the tree goes exactly where you want to place the tree. So this is another great use for a throw-line.


Throw-lines are cheap and a must have for any tree crew. If you don't own one buy one. They are less than $20. make sure to buy the lil throw-line bag from a arborist supply website that are meant for throw-lines. They are little bags that have a d-ring on it to tie the rope and inside the little bag there are bb's or ball bearings inside of it. This helps if you mess up and hit a window or something. It helps absorb the impact but don't mess up. Go practice on a tree in a area where nothing can become damaged.

Hope this info helps. let me know if you need to know where to buy one. There is a technique to throwing the line on youtube probably. it takes a little practice to get good at it but it aint rocket science.


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## Houston Tree (Aug 27, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> So, when would you use a throwline?



hey man sorry I read your question wrong. Jeff re-asked it and I replied to him if you are interested about when I use a throwline.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 27, 2013)

Houston Tree said:


> I only use a lanyard when I am climbing the tree for the first time to set up my ropes. The lanyard is really good for the initial climb. Its actually a must, unless you use a throw line to get your ropes in the tree. Other than for setting up your ropes, I think the lanyard is not very productive. It slows everything down. A blakes, if tied correctly is the best knot to use and very safe. I like to use my spikes always. They speed things up and make it good to get in positions that you can't get into without spikes. The other reason to use a lanyard and spikes is after all the limbs have been removed and its time to take down the trunk. Gotta use the lanyard and spikes to be efficient, but I'm sure you already know this...
> 
> Also think about this - When you are in the tree connected to a lanyard. If you were to have a accident and loose your footing and became badly injured. say injuring a leg. How would you get your footing back to undo your lanyard to get out of the tree? Always use a rope for this added caution and easily repel yourself down the tree quickly. It only takes about 10 minutes of hanging in the tree in your harness and you will be close to dying because of the blood being cut off from your legs.
> 
> ...


 So, just so I understand, you don't use a lanyard...or ya do? U use spikes all the time, even on pruning (trimming)? And when do u use a throwline?


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## Carburetorless (Aug 27, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> So the wrap on the biner kind of adds enough friction to let a blake's work on an srt rig, if I'm reading you right? At least for descent?



Yep, that's how it works. When you make the rap on the second biner, use the part of the rope that's between the second biner and the Blake's. You may have to feed a bit of slack to have enough to clip into the biner then bring it under and clip in again.




> I can see the challenges for ascending, but like in a spar choking situation it'll work as a secondary and not lock up?



I use it solely for descending, so I've never used like that, but I think you could, just experiment with it.




> I kinda like it, I would think the same principle would work with a vt. Gonna have to play with that, might even cut a splittail tomorrow just to see. Correct any of my assumptions before I bust my ass tommorrow, though, if ya don't mind, lol. Jolly



My advice would be to test your assumptions low and slow, that way you won't end up sore & grumpy Jeff. lol

The only problem(a small one) I've had with it is the fact that it likes to eat your glove if you let the sleeve of the glove get in there. I use those mechanic's type gloves with the Velcro strap, the sleeve on them is pretty short and gets in the rig sometimes, but with the right gloves you probably won't have that problem.


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## 68 Buick (Aug 27, 2013)

I hope it's OK for a newcomer to just jump in? I've been hesitate to jump in due to the fact that I feel like I have been under a rock. I don't use any of the new gadgets out there and kinda lost on some of the terminology. I'm much in line with old school climbing but have enjoyed these forums ( very interesting ). I just wanted to add to the beginning comments about keeping you're spurs sharpen, that having good and proper padding will help those pains to the legs. I think its great Sgreanbean that your teaching your sons and how your teaching them. I had my boy under me for a while, thinking he be climbing next to me but then he chose a career in the Marines. I believe a good climber is one who thinks things through, sets up well, and respect for the tree. We all can get into trouble, knowing how to get out of it is key.


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## TheJollyLogger (Aug 27, 2013)

Carburetorless said:


> Yep, that's how it works. When you make the rap on the second biner, use the part of the rope that's between the second biner and the Blake's. You may have to feed a bit of slack to have enough to clip into the biner then bring it under and clip in again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't climbed with a split tail or closed system for a long time, but actually that is kind of a cool low tech technique. I like it.


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