# WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO TIE IN TWICE WHILE CLIMBING?



## jaystihl (Nov 28, 2014)

I have been climbing for about 7 years now ,but I have only used my flip line with no second point of attachment. Dangerous and stupid I know but realizing my luck will only last so long I would like to find out the best way to tie in twice or TITS as I have seen on these forums. I have a Buckingham ergovation saddle with two floating D rings in the middle. Do they sell anything that is premade for safety and positioning purposes(for second point of attachment)? I would like a second vertical line to position on limbs above me when working in the tree. I was thinking of making a 20 ft line with a biner on one end that would go over branch above me and back down to my left d ring and on the right d ring a biner with a prusik for adjusting. any descriptions in laymans terms would be helpful. Thanks


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## ATH (Nov 28, 2014)

You need an overhead climbing line that goes from your tie in point to the ground in case you need to bail out. Get Tree Climbers Companion and the ANSI Z133 books.


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## greengreer (Nov 29, 2014)

I second that you need a climbline. Even spiking removals we always set a climbline before making significant cuts.
I also sometimes climb with a lanyard and flipline. Just gives you more options on positioning and moving throughout the canopy. You can make one on the cheap, as you described. I do suggest a steel snaphook instead of a biner on a lanyard. For me the extra few ounces make it easier to sling around and the rope snaps are quicker and easier to attach/detach.
the next one I build will be longer and use smaller diameter rope to make it lighter and easier to position. Currently using about 15ft of 1/2".


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## Robin Wood (Nov 30, 2014)

But how did climbers in the 50s~70s made 200+ft climb and made those huge diameter tree cuts without life-line or with only 1 lanyard/flipline ?
Unbelievable right ?!


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## miko0618 (Dec 1, 2014)

Robin Wood said:


> But how did climbers in the 50s~70s made 200+ft climb and made those huge diameter tree cuts without life-line or with only 1 lanyard/flipline ?
> Unbelievable right ?!


Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved. 

I can't belive there are climbers out there today that don't know how to climb the ropes.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 1, 2014)

Robin Wood said:


> But how did climbers in the 50s~70s made 200+ft climb and made those huge diameter tree cuts without life-line or with only 1 lanyard/flipline ?
> Unbelievable right ?!


You comment should be climbers in the 20's - 70's. In those days, having a logger die in the woods was not uncommon or unexpected. Our attitude toward health and safety has evolved since.


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## ATH (Dec 1, 2014)

Robin Wood said:


> But how did climbers in the 50s~70s made 200+ft climb and made those huge diameter tree cuts without life-line or with only 1 lanyard/flipline ?
> Unbelievable right ?!


How did surgery patients recover without penicillin?
How were babies ever born outside of hospitals?
How did anybody every drive without a seatbelt ?
How did people live through the plagues in the past without basic sanitation?
How did people on a sinking ship survive without live boats?
How did anybody make it out of a burning building before sprinkler systems?
How did wildland firefighters get by without foil shelters?

The answer is the same for all of these questions - both now and "back then": Some live(d) while some die(d). Let's keep moving the needle in the right direction.


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## Robin Wood (Dec 2, 2014)

you guys are right, safety has improved ever since.
but i have my utmost respect to those men who did these daring work them days
no such thing as too safe, thanks to pro's in AS we can work more safely with minimal risk !


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## jaystihl (Dec 2, 2014)

Thanks for all the input guys, will definitely be Investing In a climb line. Any input on a economy line that is still decent? Also is it more convenient to use a rope grab like on a wire core flip line, or is a prusik hitch better for your climb line? Not sure if the rope grab is safe with a regular climb line


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## greengreer (Dec 2, 2014)

16strand1/2", get a150' you wont regret it. Most guys around here like safety blue, I am on arbormaster but any decent line will be fine. Learn a blake's hitch or another simple prusik that can be tied with the tail of the rope, learn it on the ground like the back of your hand. A rope grab will not release when weighted, thus making a descent nearly impossible.


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## ATH (Dec 2, 2014)

Have you bought and read Tree Climber's Companion yet?

How long of a line do you need? You can usually save a few bucks buying from Wesspur in their clearance rope section: http://www.wesspur.com/clearance/clearance-rope.html if they have something you are looking for.

Otherwise, just look through their site, Sherrill, Treestuff, Bailey's and find one that sounds like something you'd like. I like having a tight eye spliced in the end...but if you are pinching pennies, then a knot works too. Plenty of opinions on the different ropes if you search around here. I have used several different ropes and can't say I have found one that is heads above others...but I try to pay attention to what I am buying.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 3, 2014)

All the climbing ropes are within $0.15/ft of each other so 150' will be a difference of $25. Hardly enough to get all cheap about. I like 24 strand, some like 16 strand. Look through the catalogs and you will quickly determine the advantages/disadvantages of each style. 

All our new climbers start on a blakes hitch, I've found prussics can lock up and be a really bugger to slide. With experience you can then move to an eye to eye hitch cord and use a more responsive hitch like a VT or distel/klemheist..... Our company doesn't allow mechancial hitches so no zigzaz/lockjack/spiderjack for us.

I've tied a steel lanyard snap to a 20' piece of climbing line and use that as my lanyard along with an i2i and distel. I like the ease of adjusting and can use it as a mini climbing line if necessary.

Buy extra biners, they're like clamps for woodworkers - you can never have enough.


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## TheShanks (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm still new to climbing in the grand scheme of things, but I don't hold back. I second just using your climbing line as a second tie in. From the start I was taught Blakes hitch on the tail end of your line, and or using a second bit of rope with an eye in it. Because a lot of guys I work with also use a Distel hitch I was taught that too. I use that with a micro pully. Again I don't come from years of experience in climbing but the using a Distel with a pully is super easy. One pull on the slack end of the rope and its adjusted and sets its self. When I climb I like to have the fixed end already tied and the hitch also set and clipped to the back of my belt. That way I avoid spurring my own rope. When its time to tie it in its as easy as clippping one side in, flip the other around, clip it in and tug up on the rope to snug it down. 

I only have one flipline right now so quite often I use my climbing line as a second one if I need to get around an arm etc. Same system works just as well on the hip D rings as on the bridge. If I know I'm going to need to use my line as a flip line Ill just leave the hitch side clipped onto my hip D ring to same time.

As for rope goes, Mine isn't a super expensive one, but its defiantly not a piece of crap from the hardware store. As long as it is up to par in weight and shock load you'll be fine.


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## CalTreeEquip (Dec 13, 2014)

Can you explain how it is you have been climbing for 7 years without a climbline? This is rather unfathomable for me. Are your trees real small? 
What I would strongly suggest, rather then trying to learn to climb from this forum, is you buy every book and video on tree climbing you can find and study them.
Them maybe find some tree companies doing jobs and watch them. Check out videos on youtube. Trying to teach yourself this stuff is extremely dangerous but since you have survived 7 year so far maybe your blessed.


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## jaystihl (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for your input!! Caltree, our trees are not as tall as yours im sure. The trees here that we climb range from 30- 80 ft. I was simply asking a question not trying to learn how to climb from this forum. I know plenty of people that dont use a climb line including myself. I have owned my tree service for 10 years and have removed hundreds of large trees without a climb line. I was simply asking what the best way to tie in twice. I didnt add in the begining that i do tie in with a second lanyard choked around ghe tree while working in the canopy .Thank you to everyone who took the time for good solid advice


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 15, 2014)

I trust you are only doing removals and not spurring prune jobs.


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## jaystihl (Dec 15, 2014)

Absolutely, only removals with spurs, luckily anything up high is usually a removal , not pruning for us


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 15, 2014)

I would hate to be your insurer,,you must live in the boondocks,,
I thought this forum room was for pro's.
Jeff


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## jaystihl (Dec 15, 2014)

Ah yes, I knew the d8ckhead would finally show up. Jeff you definitely hold the record for useless, most annoying, degrading, and negative post. Every post I have seen on this site that was negative you were involved in. I love how you have so much to say behind your little computer. Surly you dont treat people like that in person, if you do im sure you have had your ass handed to you a couple of times and are just to hard headed to realize it.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 15, 2014)

jaystihl said:


> Ah yes, I knew the d8ckhead would finally show up. Jeff you definitely hold the record for useless, most annoying, degrading, and negative post. Every post I have seen on this site that was negative you were involved in. I love how you have so much to say behind your little computer. Surly you dont treat people like that in person, if you do im sure you have had your ass handed to you a couple of times and are just to hard headed to realize it.



I don't mean to be, I honestly thought this was a pro forum,
if it was in the 101 forum I would of been much more nice!
Sorry to hurt your feeling's, but I stand by my post.
Every word.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 15, 2014)

Put this post in the 101 forum and see if I am a d8ckhead.
So many things I could nicely say to help,
ask here when you get your 'man-suit' on.
Jeff


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## hseII (Dec 15, 2014)

jefflovstrom said:


> I would hate to be your insurer,,you must live in the boondocks,,
> I thought this forum room was for pro's.
> Jeff


Not to be smart, 
but I thought this was a place for people to ask an honest question and get sound advice. 

Not everyone started out climbing trees: some started climbing poles for Co Ops and moved into this field after OJT, and education from various legitimate arborist seminars. 

Lineman climb different.

Heck, Co Op lineman have been taught up until the past maybe 3-4 years, that climbing a pole with the flip line attached to the pole is for women and kids: lineman leave their flip lime over their shoulder till they get to where they are going, and only tie in to free up their hands.

Hitch hiking is for folks that wear panties, they say. 

It's something that is finally being faded out, but lets not be critical of someone trying to learn a safer way to do something; they may have been taught differently than you.

I genuinely want to learn how y'all do it safely, and I'm sure that was the OP's reason for asking the question in the first place.


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## KenJax Tree (Dec 15, 2014)

hseII said:


> Not to be smart,
> but I thought this was a place for people to ask an honest question and get sound advice.
> 
> Not everyone started out climbing trees: some started climbing poles for Co Ops and moved into this field after OJT, and education from various legitimate arborist seminars.
> ...


You'll get all the advice and help you need in 101.


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## jaystihl (Dec 16, 2014)

Guys, this is the 101 forum


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2014)

Must of been moved here, time to be nice.
Jeff


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## KenJax Tree (Dec 16, 2014)




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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2014)

jaystihl said:


> I have been climbing for about 7 years now ,but I have only used my flip line with no second point of attachment. Dangerous and stupid I know but realizing my luck will only last so long I would like to find out the best way to tie in twice or TITS as I have seen on these forums. I have a Buckingham ergovation saddle with two floating D rings in the middle. Do they sell anything that is premade for safety and positioning purposes(for second point of attachment)? I would like a second vertical line to position on limbs above me when working in the tree. I was thinking of making a 20 ft line with a biner on one end that would go over branch above me and back down to my left d ring and on the right d ring a biner with a prusik for adjusting. any descriptions in laymans terms would be helpful. Thanks



How about using a friction saver attached any where you want?
Sorry if I pissed you off.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2014)

Think about it, what if you needed to bail out of there real quick?
You gonna be flipping and grabbing and hugging?
You need a life line. Tie into it, your second point is your flip line, 
What if you needed to be rescued? 
Just think ahead, 

btw, this was moved from the commercial forum right?
Jeff


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## jaystihl (Dec 16, 2014)

I honestly didnt , this was originally posted in 101.

I usually always have my bull rope with me along with block and 3/4 abr ultra block sling which is one of the first things I install in the tree. In which case (even though it is highly frowned upon) I can use this as an escape line if need be since I always have a biner on the end(again I know this isnt right). In addition to my flip line (wire core ) , I also use a separate wirecore flip line with rope grab and choke itself around the tree while working in case I gaff out. 

I realize this is not the most productive ,versitle, and safest method, but that was the reason for this post. I want to invest in a life line and do it right. Also know there is several different systems to rig lifeline to harness and wanted advice on what the guys liked the most. 
Adding a life line will seem more cumbersome and time consuming (adjusting flip line and life line during accent) , but I know its the most important!! Thanks for any advice, cheers


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## miko0618 (Dec 17, 2014)

How do you remove trees with only spikes and a flipline? I can't image how inefficient, dangerous, limiting and restricting that is. Not to mention how bad it must suck. 

"Yeah, i'll just spike out to the tip of that limb"?


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## jaystihl (Dec 17, 2014)

Easy does it there captain obvious! I just stated those same words just above you. 
And if you are referring to limb walking, we rarely have to do that where im at. 

Cant a guy ask for some sound advice , without being ridiculed!!?


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## miko0618 (Dec 17, 2014)

I was making a general statement. You are not the only one out there with these old school tactics captain defensive.


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## KenJax Tree (Dec 17, 2014)

jaystihl said:


> Easy does it there captain obvious! I just stated those same words just above you.
> And if you are referring to limb walking, we rarely have to do that where im at.
> 
> Cant a guy ask for some sound advice , without being ridiculed!!?


Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're ridiculing you.


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## miko0618 (Dec 17, 2014)

I think you got sound advice. Some of which you didn't even want to hear. I have a genuine interest in how it goes down without a tie in. I know some trees are possible with just a lanyard but how are all? I wasn't being rude. I wanted to know.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 17, 2014)

miko0618 said:


> How do you remove trees with only spikes and a flipline? I can't image how inefficient, dangerous, limiting and restricting that is. Not to mention how bad it must suck.
> 
> "Yeah, i'll just spike out to the tip of that limb"?



Most conifers only need a spurs and a lanyard.


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## miko0618 (Dec 17, 2014)

miko0618 said:


> I think you got sound advice. Some of which you didn't even want to hear. I have a genuine interest in how it goes down without a tie in. I know some trees are possible with just a lanyard but how are all? I wasn't being rude. I wanted to know.


Did you read this? And even in a single spar you should have a bail out line. But for work purposes, yes just a flipline.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 18, 2014)

We just use the climbing line like a second lanyard, it's not attached to the stem at all.


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## TaoTreeClimber (Dec 19, 2014)

When Im on a spar, or spiking up a pine or spruce removal, I have a bail out tie in point. It is jus a climbing line tied around the spar with a running bowline. I attach to the bail out line with a munter hitch on an HMS biner, An 8 will work but I like to keep it simple. As I advance up the tree cutting branches off I advance the running bowline up as I go. I try to keep my bail out line no more than a foot below from my work positioning lanyard. If for some reason I happen to cut through my lanyard I would have the Munter to catch me. (I have a steel core but rarely use it) Once I blow out the top or rig it down I can either start bombing chunks, or if I have enough room I can rap down the spar on my bail out line. Now that Im on the ground I have a rope tied to the top of the spar and I use it to pull the spar where ever I want it. Or I can leave tall stump and come back later and carve a bear out of it. Nice safe and simple.


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## jaystihl (Dec 19, 2014)

Well put tao!


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## TaoTreeClimber (Dec 19, 2014)

Or if there is a close and handy tree nearby I will set a climb line in that with a throw line and get to work. Always, always, always have a secondary tie in point. Even while out on a limb limb walking I will LOOSELY tie in with my work positioning lanyard. Not using a secondary tie in point is like sky diving without a reserve parachute.


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## miko0618 (Dec 19, 2014)

Exactly


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## miko0618 (Dec 19, 2014)

Wearing it as a second lanyard doesn't seem practical.


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## mike515 (Dec 31, 2014)

I think someone may have mentioned this but you need to be tied in with a climb line...if for no other reason....in the event of an accident. An aerial rescue is a lot easier if the climber is tied in properly. Imagine how much harder a rescue would be if the climber was just hanging limp from a scare strap.


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## TaoTreeClimber (Jan 2, 2015)

OK, Heres what I did today just for ya all. Took down about a 80 ft spruce. After being cooped up for a week I was wanting to get in the air. I took these pics just for you guys. I usually dont climb with a steel core, but I broke out the flip line for this one. A simple running bowline/Munter hitch secondary TIP. ( I even tied an over hand knot in the tail of my bowline cuz I knew some on would want to sharp shoot that.)


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## jaystihl (Jan 2, 2015)

Great pic, thanks tao! Just curious, why not use the steel core flip? Thats all I ever use and was wondering if there is something better or is it just opinion?


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## TaoTreeClimber (Jan 2, 2015)

I am all about being light weight. I do a lot of pruning and a steel core is just to clumbsy and heavy. Another thing is they are conductive. If that tree would have been any closer to that line today I wouldnt have used the flip line.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 2, 2015)

IMO, using an adjustable friction saver (http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=348&item=11150) and a proper friction hitch would be much better than relying on that munter hitch.

From my understanding, the second tie in is not to be a bail out system, rather it is a backup should you accidentally cut your lanyard. Therefore, we keep the climbing line (secondary lanyard) down about knee level. Having it as a bail out system is effective, but not what the rule was designed for.

And for those unaware, a full running chainsaw will cut a steel core lanyard about 1/5 of a second slower than a rope lanyard. The steel core lanyard was developed when the old timers would chop the top with an axe. It is also more effective to flip when you are climbing large trees (5' diameter +) like they used for logging spars back in the 1920's.


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## beastmaster (Jan 3, 2015)

I never use to use a second tie in on spar. It would of slowed us down to much. But I also see two people fall from cutting their lanyards. I now always use a second tie in while blocking down a spar. I like to use a gri gri and choke the trunk using a biner. It also acts as my bail out rope . With the gri.gri I could come down one handed if need be. Not to have that extra insurence is a fool. You sometimes only get one brake after a mistake. Falling 80 ft off gaffs. Your golng to land upside down. That helmet not going to save you. You maybe lucky if it kills you. Not being able to move from the neck down can't be fun.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 3, 2015)

You nailed it Beastie. I do the same thing up and down. I had a groundie time me once on an 80' pine. I spent a total of 10 minutes messing with my secondary on a 2 hr climb. Ten minutes well spent in my opinion.


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## TheGoodFellers (Jan 6, 2015)

Is that the Italian hitch yah got their Tao? In situations like this I use to use a carabinier rather than a running bowline but I heard side loading was bad? I've changed quite a few things around since this picture... But I'll let you boys rip me a new on .


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## jaystihl (Jan 7, 2015)

Hey beast, thanks for the post, can you fill me in on what a gri gri is? I am using something similar to what tao posted but not sure what a gri gri is?


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## jaystihl (Jan 7, 2015)

Any other pics are great and informative as well!! (Doesnt have to be 80 ft. In a tree, but lets admit it does make the pic a helluva lot better, ha!!)


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## TheGoodFellers (Jan 7, 2015)

jaystihl said:


> Hey beast, thanks for the post, can you fill me in on what a gri gri is? I am using something similar to what tao posted but not sure what a gri gri is?






kind of a fun video... im not sure id use this for climbing though. but to each their own


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## TaoTreeClimber (Jan 8, 2015)

TheGoodFellers said:


> Is that the Italian hitch yah got their Tao? In situations like this I use to use a carabinier rather than a running bowline but I heard side loading was bad? I've changed quite a few things around since this picture... But I'll let you boys rip me a new on .



It took me a minute or two but with the help of my bi-focal saftey glasses I was able to kinda make out what you have going on there. Looks like your choked off to the spar and you are using a single eye split tail tied in either a Blakes or Tautline?? If thats the case then your good to go. Its a technique. Its not my preferred technique, but it works.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 9, 2015)

That blakes will lock up srt, you'll never make it down. And what kind of rope is that? looks ready for retirement to me.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 9, 2015)

I have the gri gri and the rig. both great tools. I prefer the rig because of the locking work position on the lever.


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## TheGoodFellers (Jan 9, 2015)

TheJollyLogger said:


> That blakes will lock up srt, you'll never make it down. And what kind of rope is that? looks ready for retirement to me.



Yale XTC 12-Strand. She was coated with saw dust this day. But since she has retired to rigging. I use Sampson line now.


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