# What is wrong with this felling cut



## JAW (Sep 21, 2015)

Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.


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## fireman33 (Sep 21, 2015)

The "open face" shouldn't be 60% it should be more like 30 to 40%...the back cut should be parallel to the ground on that picture not on an angle. If you leave more wood for the back cut it gives you the opportunity to insert a wedge if needed.


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## fireman33 (Sep 21, 2015)

Also the back cut should not meet the corner of cut 2 and 3...you absolutely need to leave hinge wood so you can actually direct the tree where you want it to fall...no hinge wood = free fall...watch out...hinge should be around 10% of diameter


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 21, 2015)

In theory, your backcut should be higher than the apex of your notch to prevent the butt of the tree from sliding back on the stump. 

The backcut should be parallel to the ground so if you were to wedge it the wedging force rotates the tree (vertically, not rotating the tree on the stump) at the hinge rather than putting lateral force against the hinge.

I have better success getting my notch cuts to line up when I make the top cut first.

When falling a full tree, the notch should be about 30% of the width of the tree. However, when I'm falling a peg, especially a short fat one, I'll make a much deeper notch 50-60%, This moves the hinge back in relation to the centre of mass and makes it easier to fall. If there is a risk of it falling backwards, put a rope in it.


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## JRoland (Sep 23, 2015)

Also by doing the cuts in the order and the way you drew, you risk having cut 3 end up below cut 1 which is not good when tree is wanting to go in direction of open face.


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## JAW (Sep 23, 2015)

Thanks everyone for some great replies. For some clarification, I do leave a hinge, cut 3 is stopped when the tree starts to go.

Due to my newness felling and inability to cut straight lines/angles, I found doing it by the book like fireman33 first posted resulted in several trees dropping backwards. Right now I'm cutting a large tree line between two fields so there is no danger of hitting anything but myself. Using my cut shown above has resulted in all the trees dropping exactly towards the notch (I'm notching in the direction they want to fall).

So basically I was wanting to know what was unsafe or dangerous about felling using my method. I assume something is wrong since I can't find any felling guides that shows doing it my way.


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## Marshy (Sep 23, 2015)

JAW said:


> Thanks everyone for some great replies. For some clarification, I do leave a hinge, cut 3 is stopped when the tree starts to go.
> 
> Due to my newness felling and inability to cut straight lines/angles, I found doing it by the book like fireman33 first posted resulted in several trees dropping backwards. Right now I'm cutting a large tree line between two fields so there is no danger of hitting anything but myself. Using my cut shown above has resulted in all the trees dropping exactly towards the notch (I'm notching in the direction they want to fall).
> 
> So basically I was wanting to know what was unsafe or dangerous about felling using my method. I assume something is wrong since I can't find any felling guides that shows doing it my way.


You won't find any good guidelines showing your method because it is not a good safe method. I won't reiterate what was said above because well, it's good advice and a waist of my tim to repeat it. The trees that fell in the undesired direction when you used the proper cut were likely leaning if a different direction than you desired. You can follow the recommended method and still have a tree fall the wrong way. This can happen if your trying to go against the lean, make you face cuts too deep or the wind pushes it backwards. The whole premise of proper hinge wood and the horizontal back cut is to control the tree during falling an prevent kickback. If wedging on a slipped back cut you induce a shear force on the hinge and run a higher risk of the hinge failing before the tree falls safely.


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## JAW (Sep 23, 2015)

Thanks Marshy, from what you wrote (and BC Westcoast) I'm understanding that my angled back cut #3 is unsafe because it doesn't allow me to use a wedge the appropriate way-- puts wrong force on hinge.

So what is the big problem with the 60% open face cut (rather than 30%). Is it that a big wind gust or weakened tree causes an unexpected fall?


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## mesupra (Sep 23, 2015)

You also end up with a giant obstacle to maneuver around when winching and pulling


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## president (Sep 23, 2015)

It seems to me that you have moved the centre of gravity to far back with the 
60% deep face cut hinge needs to be more forward and wedged until it leans toward 
desired fall direction


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## Nish (Sep 23, 2015)

If you've done it by the book to ill effect, you're probably expecting to0 much of the felling cuts. If the tree has back lean felling cuts alone aren't likely to make it tip forward, no matter how well they are crafted. Think of your felling cuts as directing the tree to fall a little to the right or a little to the left--after other forces (gravity, wind, wedges, ropes, jacks, heavy equipment) have already committed the tree to fall forward.

I only see disadvantage in cutting 3 at an such angle--it just makes it a harder cut, and harder to line up with your other cuts. You can stay an inch above the meeting points of 2 and 3 if there's reason to fear the butt jumping back on you at the end of the fall.

The deep face cut is helpful in some circumstances, but it's dangerous in others. The danger is exactly what you say it is.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 23, 2015)

JAW said:


> Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.
> 
> View attachment 448668


You need to read that tree better ,it is leaning 180 degrees of that huge face to start with ,its gonna go over backwards and smash your saw after you pinch it in the farmer back cut .


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 23, 2015)

The width of the notch 60* vs 30* isn't as big a problem. With the smaller cut, when the tree goes over, it will break the hinge easier. This may or may not be advantageous to you depending on the situation. What is the problem with the notch you drew was the depth, how far it went into the tree. 

Here is some good information for you. It is the standard to which Certified Fallers in BC must adhere to. In BC, commercially, you can't fall any tree over 8" diameter unless you are certified or using arborist techniques (roped, or climbed).

http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_1.pdf
http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_2.pdf


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## Skeans (Sep 23, 2015)

Back cut on the cedar wasn't perfectly even but had a slight step on it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## zwoehr (Sep 27, 2015)

BC WetCoast said:


> The width of the notch 60* vs 30* isn't as big a problem. With the smaller cut, when the tree goes over, it will break the hinge easier. This may or may not be advantageous to you depending on the situation. What is the problem with the notch you drew was the depth, how far it went into the tree.
> 
> Here is some good information for you. It is the standard to which Certified Fallers in BC must adhere to. In BC, commercially, you can't fall any tree over 8" diameter unless you are certified or using arborist techniques (roped, or climbed).
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the links. After you get past the safety boilerplate they have a lot of good information about different falling cuts. I haven't seen anything explaining the differences between them and where to best use them before.


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 28, 2015)

I assume you meaning the difference between a regular notch, wide notch and humbolt notch.

There is lots of information out there about the technical differences. You have to be careful when you read about falling notches in BC. They require the humbolt to be used all the time. There are two reasons, the technical - prevents sliding back on the stump, the other which isn't discussed much is financial. In BC, virtually all the timber is owned by the government and the cutting rights licenced to the timber companies. The government gets a fee (called stumpage) from the volume of timber harvested. The stumpage rate is a complex calculation, one of the factors being average tree volume based on a 30cm (1 ft) high stump. If a regular notch was used, then the notch would be coming out of the butt log and not the stump, like you would get if you used a humbolt. This is considered a waste and the companies are fined for it.

I remember when I was in school, that if you were to square up a log when a regular notch was used, you would lose 1-2% of the volume of the log. That was a long time ago, my memory could be failing.


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## Marshy (Sep 28, 2015)

BC WetCoast said:


> I assume you meaning the difference between a regular notch, wide notch and humbolt notch.
> 
> There is lots of information out there about the technical differences. You have to be careful when you read about falling notches in BC. They require the humbolt to be used all the time. There are two reasons, the technical - prevents sliding back on the stump, the other which isn't discussed much is financial. In BC, virtually all the timber is owned by the government and the cutting rights licenced to the timber companies. The government gets a fee (called stumpage) from the volume of timber harvested. The stumpage rate is a complex calculation, one of the factors being average tree volume based on a 30cm (1 ft) high stump. If a regular notch was used, then the notch would be coming out of the butt log and not the stump, like you would get if you used a humbolt. This is considered a waste and the companies are fined for it.
> 
> I remember when I was in school, that if you were to square up a log when a regular notch was used, you would lose 1-2% of the volume of the log. That was a long time ago, my memory could be failing.


Works good for timber that grows on hills. Just makes for taller stumps when your on flat land. Good points none the less.


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## SteveSr (Dec 21, 2015)

JAW said:


> Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.


I do volunteer trail construction and maintenance for several trail organizations. I have been through USFS and NWCG training every 3 years for the last two decades or so.

The safest techniques that I have found are the open face notch *similar* to the one you describe. The total open face angle should be greater than or equal to 90 degrees. If done properly this means that the trunk is still attached to the stump when the tree is on the ground. This prevents the tree from coming back at the sawyer.

Ideally the notch depth should only be 25% of the trunk diameter (diameter divided by 4). The hinge should be 10% of the diameter (diameter divided by 10... move the decimal point). This leaves 65% of the diameter for the *horizontal* back cut. If the tree is big enough this should allow room for wedges.

Once you have mastered this technique I would highly recommend that you learn bore cutting to construct the hinge. This adds another layer of safety against a barber chair in situations with excessive lean, head weight, or both. It also pretty much guarantees the ability to set wedges to prevent a sit back situation.

I wish I had some good pictures or videos to show this but I don't.


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## TheJollyLogger (Dec 21, 2015)

One important point to make is the difference between arborist practices and logging practices. Two similar yet totally different industries with totally separate priorities. As a result, some techniques cross over and many others dont.


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## derwoodii (Dec 22, 2015)

most things have been addressed 1 more is,,, good felling saws are well balanced tools and will find chain bar 90° to ground if held in center of gravity,,,your 3 cuts require exceptional skills and aim 3 times and find operator working against saws design 3 times rather than the 1 for the face


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## ATH (Dec 23, 2015)

Lots of good comments. One more that I didn't notice mentioned...I switch the order of cuts 1 and 2. The guy I learned that from pointed out when you do the top cut first, you can peek down through the cut to see the bottom cut lining up. Start at the corner nearest you and pivot the saw until it gets to the other corner. Goot way to prevent cutting into your hinge. Of course this is on wider open notches where the top cut is almost vertical and the bottom cut is almost horizontal... Only going in deep enough so the hinge length is about 80% of the diameter.


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## derwoodii (Dec 23, 2015)

ATH said:


> you do the top cut first, you can peek down through the cut to see the bottom cut lining up. Start at the corner nearest you and pivot the saw until it gets to the other corner. Goot way to prevent cutting into your hinge




I always wondered why some go top or bottom face cut 1st,,, i myself go bottom just because but this info will find me looking down the bar and cut next time,, thanks


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 24, 2015)

I was enjoying reading the guys so far.
I'll get back to it as I stopped where the OP posted again.

I'll put this in perspective.
How do we fall big wood?
It the same, everything is just bigger.
Let me try is on a ten foot tree or even a 3' tree.
It would look like a dogs breakfast.
Keep in mind there are two angles to set for any cut. In this case we are trying to eyeball 45° twice to match with out slanting one side to the next.
You could never do big dia that way even with the flat back cut so why do little dia this way.

Now the major saftey concerns.
Like JRoland explained and I'm trying to say is it's easier to make error. Undercutting your undercut is very dangerous with even a flat backcut and can send the tree back IF it comes into contact with something. (Ref. Isaac Newton First Law of motion) whatever starts in motion will stay in motion until the body comes in contact this another boby) examples: standing timber, 'dutchmen'
Remember there is two angles and this method can be lethal and even a much higher risk to be on the tention side where we should be. If you make a high cut and the "45°" is sloping towards you and you cut it off?? You got the worst of both worlds with this cut. It a recipe for disaster. You are making a slide with out flat surface. The top weigh will shoot it right at you. Dangerous as I've ever seen.

A trained Faller controls his environment.
We have all these good practices to keep us coming home at night. Each practice backs up another. If we miss a couple then we could be wearing wood. You don't want to wear that stuff, it out of fashion.
Missing a 'dutchmen' no anti kickback step, Falling into standing Timber, dosent degress 10' from stump, dosen't exit 45° to the 'high' (safe) side. *Sloping cuts*, bypass cuts, (blind 'dutchmen') dosen't look up, Falls from under the compression side when it can be avoided.
Dosen't fall Danger trees first.
No saftey trails
Dosen't cut blow down opposite the lay, dosent buck the cut saplings opposite the lay in stump area. Dosen't check corners,
dosen't maintain holding wood. No proper assessment of tree. No site overview. . works beyond experience level.

Not looking up on its own if a killer.
as not getting away from your stump.
On the coast you can not fall onto uncut wood around your stump or impeeding into your Falling face. Hugh killer.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 25, 2015)

Good comments, you need to remember that falling (whole tree or a stub) in an urban environment is different that in a forest setting. I'm not going to mow down Mrs. Smith's prize roses or take down a fence to ensure a safe exit route. On the other hand it's a little safer as you drop zone is going to fairly open or else you wouldn't be falling it. 

The principles of the cut should be the same, but I find you need to have a few extra options available as the conditions can more variable. 

For most falling I do (which is done on fairly small trees) I just use a normal notch (not humbolt or open face). I find if I make the top sloping cut first, I can line up the horizontal cut much easier and spend less time trying to clean out the notch. I usually don't want the tree to sit on the stump so my notch is fairly narrow. I also do this at about 3', because I don't have to bend over so much (easier on the body). I'll then kneel down and cut off the stump.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 25, 2015)

Yes, I was just driving the point home about healthy habits.
This cut is "Danger bay". It is the most dangerous I have ever seen.

I work gas & oil, Maintain Pine Beetle (MPB) , Felling of live wire, DTA/DTF on Wildland fires as well as Production.
I have also filled in on Res work too in the lower mainland and Island.

They said " You are a Faller, then fall the stub then" . I definitely put it on the money hitting the corner of the lawn road end of the driveway. I hearted it out leaving a post of holding wood on each corner of Sap wood. I did a west coast Swanson. A very narrow Humboldt with a sharp angle out of the stump. Definitely Saves your life and your wood when Falling on an up slop and in this case the lawn. (For any that may not understand why) when the top hits first on a hill it creates a wipping action and sends the tree back down towards the Faller. They don't want us to exceed 15° uphill. A lot of the book doesn't work for coast terrain so therefore falls under "overcoming a Falling difficulty" He thought it was funny. He was just one of those guys. I do conventional cuts lots too when falling small snags and MPB work. Sometimes I need a lower cut than can be possible with a Humboldt for pushing leverage. Two seasons of cut and fly bug wood also with a max 6" stump height. Like you say you don't have to bend under to see its cleaned out. Most everywhere but the coast they want 12" stump hights so low cuts save the time on recuts. Res work you need to cut manageable pieces anyway.
They don't want you to make low cuts on snags as that's where its more susceptible to rot as well they want you more anatomically correct so you can watch the top. (Cut at a comfortable hight) The cutting of the tree is low disturbance so I still cut low when I can and I have a 22" handle so I'm at a comfortable hight to wedge it, much easier to swing an axe that way too.
I need to learn and be comfortable with all styles and positions on a reg basis even if they are restricted to overcoming Falling difficultys. It makes us all more versatile. Having said that I should learn climbing. Was it infact you
@BC WetCoast that said you starter climbing later in life?


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 28, 2015)

I did, I started in my early fifties and now the master of the 35' climb .

I worked for years as a forester and forestry engineer on the coast, before getting into the arboriculture stuff. I guess you know the reason the gov't requires a humbolt used on production falling had nothing to do with safety. It was all about revenue to the Crown. The difference between using a humbolt and conventional notch at the same height on the stump can be a 2% loss of value in the log. As stumpage was based on average log value (and a boatload of other factors) this was an acceptable and unavoidable loss of revenue, hence the requirement for humbolt cuts.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 28, 2015)

If I was to do a pie undercut (birdsmouth/ split the difference) as demonstrated here; I still do a three cut sequence undercut. Starting always with a flat cut for aim AND for the best chance it will be level as I will level my back cut and therefore my step should be even. Example: If your undercut is slanted say an inch on a foot dia that may not be so bad but that's an inch for every foot diameter. When sighting through the undercut from one side on larger diameter to set your level and step for back cut; you can always stand back and eyeball it and reset if nessassary. Same applys with flat cut on undercut. You don't have that option when putting your 45° in first. It sucks when your B/C is nice and level but your U/C is wack.
You start with $hit, you end with $hit


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## Philbert (Aug 22, 2016)

Updated links to Post #13:

https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ing&sort=relevancy&f:language-facet=[English]

https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ing&sort=relevancy&f:language-facet=[English]

Philbert


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Aug 23, 2016)

Something I have not seen mentioned yet is the difference in wedging over a 30% notch vs a 60% notch. The smaller notch leaves a larger lever and doubles the efficiency of wedging.


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 23, 2016)

BuckmasterStumpGrinding said:


> Something I have not seen mentioned yet is the difference in wedging over a 30% notch vs a 60% notch. The smaller notch leaves a larger lever and doubles the efficiency of wedging.


I don't understand. I can see how the depth of the notch will make a difference, I cannot see how the angle of the notch makes a difference. 

Please educate me.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Aug 24, 2016)

I was talking about the % of the tree notched and not the angle of the notch.


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## Mike Kunte (Sep 8, 2022)

It's never a good idea to make an angled back cut. It seems counter-intuitive, but an angled back cut will often end in disaster, with the tree falling backwards. The mechanism is as follows: 
1. The weight of the tree "sliding" down the ramp of the face ruptures the hinge.
2. The angled bottom quickly digs into the ground. It has now "overtaken" the crown.
3. With the tree now leaning backward, it falls in that direction. Or sideways. But seldom in the intended direction.
In 99.9% of cases, a flat back cut is called for.
My 2c.
Mike


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## Philbert (Sep 8, 2022)

I thought I had posted a thread on this, with diagrams, but it was on another forum, which I can’t link here. But, if interested, you can Google:

Sloping Back Cuts - Why Not?

Here is a related A.S. thread:






Why an Angled Back Cut is Bad


I ran across this video on YouTube of a doofus smashing his neighbor's deck while felling a tree. I noticed, among other things he does wrong, that he made an angled back cut...and when driving his wedge he knocked the tree off the stump, hanging the tree up in the canopy. Bummer. I had...




www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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## grizz55chev (Sep 8, 2022)

JAW said:


> Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.
> 
> View attachment 448668


Suicide!


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## Philbert (Sep 15, 2022)

OK, I copied a small bit from one of the treads I referenced, along with a few sketches I made to try and explain some of this visually:

I 'know' that a sloping back cut for felling trees is 'wrong', but I was trying to better understand why, in order to explain it to others. Most of the references I found mostly said 'don't do it', with little explanation. So I tried to pull together what I could, from several sources. Pretty basic graphics.




Some comments said that it was harder to hit the spot where you want the hinge to stop (typically about 2" higher than the horizontal face cut, and about 10% of trunk thickness) with a sloping back cut. You also cannot thin a hinge, if needed, without going below the stump shot shelf.




Other comments noted that when wedges are used in a conventional cut, they lift the tree, pivoting it on the hinge, and pressing down flat against the stump. When wedges are used with a sloped cut, they also push in a horizontal direction: this can cause a barber chair-like blowout at the rear of the stump, allowing the tree to fall in that direction. Several comments indicated that the forward direction of wedging also damaged the hinge.

Philbert


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## HumBurner (Sep 17, 2022)

The only real exception, aside from slash cutting (or salami if you're a climber), is when using an out-of-angle face cut to swing the tree. Even then, you're still making the back cut at the same angle as the face, not a wide or sloping cut.


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## HumBurner (Sep 17, 2022)

BuckmasterStumpGrinding said:


> Something I have not seen mentioned yet is the difference in wedging over a 30% notch vs a 60% notch. The smaller notch leaves a larger lever and doubles the efficiency of wedging.




Sometimes it's more important to have a deep 50-75% face cut (usually on smaller trees, under 18") to undermine the gravity/center of the tree.

Many trees with shallow faces are still a pain to wedge over because of their growth patterns and trueness of center. It's quicker, easier, and many times safer to cut deep than to stand under a tree pounding wedges.



There is a lot of room for creativity in the woods when you aren't subject to "safety standards" which by following to a "T" may end up being more dangerous than "breaking" the "rules."


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## Lightning Performance (Sep 17, 2022)

JAW said:


> Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.
> 
> View attachment 448668


Watched a guy put a wedge in this above mess and it all went wrong in an instant. The fence needed fixin. He set the wedges with a little tap and already was about to pinch the saw. I watched as it starts to set back as he hit the first hard shot on the wedge. I said yo, your going to lose it backwards so put a rope on it. He said no we got this I do it all the time. He set a second wedge and the first hard shot blew up the hinge and off it went backwards. If you were behind it your dead. If your in front of it your going to be messed up when it kicked out five feet past the stump. Still standing there you'll need new legs when it bounced back off the stump at the feller. His eyes got real big and I said nice plan chief and walked away. Then the neighbor who's house he just missed gave him a nice chewing about as she lost her ****.

My only weirdo stuff to be done on an urban removal is cutting a very shallow Humboldt (sp) 60-70% through a tree that was leaning back but going the other way after it was picked apart climbing. So it leans over the whatever and was picked off and stripped of limbs on the heavy low side with the hard lean. First thing you notice is the tree lifting up and bowing back in my favor with all the weight going in my chosen direction now. So a tree or a pole still needs to go the wrong way on large hardwoods and sometimes we have no choice. Given enough wood on a solid large tree I take 60%+ right out the wedge with a rope up on it. You can use back side wedges but likely not needed for more than tracking it's movement because the weight is now heading the other way with your canopy weight or just the rope on a pole. Adding a rope is never a bad idea. Saving two feet of my prime saw log is. Even if half the log is losing a foot in the notch area you still saved a foot on the other side. Sometimes that adds board feet sometimes not depending on how the log gets milled. Other times taking more and going past center releases more stress on my log once it was veneer cut at the base to start with. Other times it's not important and a much higher cut would do but if your near anything at the stump going with a humboldt cut keeps the trunk close to the ground with much less chance of it rolling out and hitting something like a shed or fountain we can't move. Sheds move pretty easy when they have to but not concrete water fountains. Standing the tree straight is pretty cool if it has no canopy. Another very shallow tiny wedge is cut to send it. At that point you can practice with wedges or just push it over with a machine. Don't forget the rope if needed because it's still hooked up to something solid or a lug-all or come-a-long maybe a truck and a big ass winch possibly. Just having the line tied off can be a huge safety factor if and/or when needed. Doing them with no safety rope can be dicey and it's not something I do near personal property, swimming pools or structure like buildings.


Everything else is rigging and climbing most times if you have no room to drop the sticks or poles. Using the west coast falling style of low stumps does save us time. Dutchmen cuts are fun to try and they work. Saving a few flush cuts that adds to the log is a win. Doing dumb stuff like sloping back cuts that leave things going backwards or worse yet hung up sucks and usually is completely the fault of an amateur most times. Fixed enough of those messes so I'm done with that and just walk away now. Some people actually beg when the tree is still on their house with damage. Not my problem and I won't touch them now. Too much liability shifts to me when I do so those days are long gone over. I'm on the path to enlightenment.
NMFP!

Stay Safe
Have two exit plans


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