# We're Going Down...Not just me Brother, YOU!



## Burvol (Apr 30, 2009)

I can't help but be concerned for me, my whole family, friends, and logger buddies here. But....everyone here will feel it too. It is mind blowing when you no longer take logs, *anywhere*. We are heading into some dark times, things that we will never forget. 

The market has finally collapsed in my area. Gone. The Chip market is suppose to be viable in 2013 here. No one wants to cut logs until around 2012 here. Our export yard is set to close permantly as well. 

My point is, there is not enough inventory to last 2-3 years. What do people see ahead? DISASTER. 

Logging is a great barometer of the nation's health. No one is building or fixing things, expanding, ect. This is going to effect all of us here on AS, not just loggers. 

I just wanted to say it's more than bad, it's looking like hell. I picked up a thinning job for a month or so, and I am greatful. I want to cut logs this year, but I will stop thinking about it now, and do my best to survive this mess. I'm telling you, it's even worse than the news and people are led on to believe. 

Part of this seems planned to me. Kill the markets. Kill logging. Kill Urban Growth. Kill the expansion of America. Move everyone into the cities into affordable Ghettos. Put nature behind glass, go visit it and bow in worship.

The new age is here, ready to roll. Thanks Black Jesus.


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## spencerhenry (Apr 30, 2009)

the current government is taking us down a road that will be very hard to come back from. they INTEND to put us out of business, it fits their vision of the world.


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## tomtrees58 (Apr 30, 2009)

:agree2:


spencerhenry said:


> the current government is taking us down a road that will be very hard to come back from. they INTEND to put us out of business, it fits their vision of the world.



:agree2:tom trees


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## Burvol (Apr 30, 2009)

spencerhenry said:


> the current government is taking us down a road that will be very hard to come back from. they INTEND to put us out of business, it fits their vision of the world.



All the while calling me and you the culprits, not the stewards of the land.


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## mile9socounty (Apr 30, 2009)

Well Burvol, I know the wildland fire fighting company I work for is governed the lumber market at least for revenue. Once our larger logging companies here in Douglas County go down, so will we. Right now Huffman & Wright only has two rigging crews running. I don't even know if Allen & Gibbons is running a crew. We are on a sinking ship.


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## Crofter (Apr 30, 2009)

Burvol, I hear you about logging being hard hit. I have lots of friends in the industry here in Ontario and it is life changing atmosphere. A lot of people are having to get their mind around it aint coming back and when it does it doesnt look good for the little guy. Here it takes big capital to get into the mechanical harvesting and you cant make a go of it if you have to beg for financing. The banks wont touch anything forestry related and insurance companies either. I dont think we can blame the government for the bust in the housing market that is behind a lot of the issues in logging. That mortgage bust and the bust in the whole manufacturing business has been building to a head for a long time. When the dust settles out (and it takes a few years) a lot of people will have downsized their housing, their vehicles, their entertainent and the whole shebang. There will be a big adjustment.

I came hear in 1956 with the Uranium boom in Elliot lake (they called it Uranim City of the world) You could not believe the activity and the feeling of wild abandon as there was previously a fair recession following the Koran war and people just busted loose with their wallets and their lives. 
I also saw the mines closed in about 95 and the shafts sealed, headframes and all surface structures gone and grassed over. Open pit mining out in Saskatchewan made our shaft mining here totally out of viability. It may be mined again in the future but it will be too late for anyone to wait for. 

The denial and resistance to changing gears was rough on a lot of people and caught them unprepared even though the writing had been on the wall for yeaars. This last happenings in the word economy is much more of a shock to a lot of people and it is very hard to find a niche when so many people are suddenly all looking for one. Competition gets ridiculous for the remaining crumbs. I had a gravel trucks and a bit of equipment that I used to keep me busy between my stints away on construction but the displaced people from the mines bid the prices down to where a reasonable profit was not possible no matter how efficient an operator you were. I sold my equipment before i ran it into the ground. Sometimes you just cannot outstarve the desperate as when one folds another comes along to relace him.

I dont know what to say but I have seen people try to hang onto what they can no longer afford and the ones that unloaded were better off. If things pick up they can be replaced; if they do not, well, you would not have been able to afford to play with those toys anyways.


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## 2dogs (Apr 30, 2009)

Hell of a thing to wake up to Burvol. I feel your pain though I have never been in a situation like yours. Obama cares about photo ops and retoric, not about real people especially out west. We stand to loose our timber industry, mining, grazing and crop production all in the name of social progress. I think right now we are circling the drain. Oh wait the government will bail us all out. After all they own the printing presses.


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## 2dogs (Apr 30, 2009)

In Collyfornia we are looking at 16 billion in new taxes in the May 19 election. We will tax ourselves into prosperity.


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## WidowMaker (Apr 30, 2009)

Well, I'm a Democrat so it won't affect me,, I got friends in HIgh Places....feel sorry for you publicans though...


actually some of my thoughts, if voiced would have the black helio fleet swarmming all over me...:censored::censored:


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## Labman (Apr 30, 2009)

You may be confusing cause and effect. That everybody is hurting, hurts loggers. But yes, we are in a heap of hurt and are drilling holes in the bottom of the boat to let the water out. A pick up in logging might be a great sign. You cut the trees long before you furnish the house.


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## Metals406 (Apr 30, 2009)

I just heard yesterday, that another of our mills is done... Plum Creek shut down the Polson Mill... 89 more families out of work. They say they'll close the the Plum Creek Evergreen Mill this fall... That leaves the Plum Creek Columbia Falls Mill... Who knows if that one will make it?

Stoltze Lumber (If they make it?) will be the only one left in the valley here... Our unemployment rate climbs every day.

I put in for a job managing a warehouse yesterday, the gal called me two hours later to get more info... She said they've been inundated with hundreds of resumes and applications--most are completeely unqualified for the job... Which means she has to sift through all the applicants to find the viable ones to present to the employer.

This ISN'T a lucrative job guys... It starts at $13.00 an hour with some bennies. The cap on the position is $17.00 an hour... And guys are fighting over it like it pays 65k a year.

It's getting hard, and will only get harder for us, while we have these globalist moron, idiot, mouth breathing, jerks running the country.


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## demographic (Apr 30, 2009)

Got to say that the building trades in the UK aren't exactly doing well either, the financial year thats just ended this april has been one of the worst that I remember, I would be surprised if I made half the amount I made the year before.

Not done my books for it yet as I don't want to depress myself.


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## GASoline71 (Apr 30, 2009)

muffinman said:


> Oooooooooooo! I have a big chainsaw! Vroom vrooom



Go F:censored: yourself...

Gary


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## PB (Apr 30, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Go F:censored: yourself...
> 
> Gary



That sounds like someone I know would say. If I only had some rep.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 30, 2009)

All of this isn't new. Logging has been on the way out for over 20 years. "Engineered" lumber, synthetic building materials, and reclamation has streamlined the way builders use materials and the need for continued processed new lumber. The strongest market in the last ten years besides the exports has been custom-dimension sawn lumber. 

If you look at America's economic base stretching back 30 years, we've moved from a manufacturing and export economy to a service economy. What this basically means is that you'll have to trade your chainsaws in for other tools.


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## Metals406 (Apr 30, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> All of this isn't new. Logging has been on the way out for over 20 years. "Engineered" lumber, synthetic building materials, and reclamation has streamlined the way builders use materials and the need for continued processed new lumber. The strongest market in the last ten years besides the exports has been custom-dimension sawn lumber.
> 
> If you look at America's economic base stretching back 30 years, we've moved from a manufacturing and export economy to a service economy. What this basically means is that you'll have to trade your chainsaws in for other tools.



I definitely agree... Hence, I was talked out of a fallers apprenticeship back in the late 90's.

I miss the woods horribly though.

I dropped two nice firs the other day, and dang near got all hot and bothered!! LOL


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## 2dogs (Apr 30, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> I definitely agree... Hence, I was talked out of a fallers apprenticeship back in the late 90's.
> 
> I miss the woods horribly though.
> 
> I dropped two nice firs the other day, and dang near got all hot and bothered!! LOL



Is That what the Gary Goo is for?


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## windthrown (Apr 30, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Is That what the Gary Goo is for?



No, that wood be Motion Lotion...


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## Metals406 (Apr 30, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Is That what the Gary Goo is for?



Hahaha... Naw. One of the ingredients of Gary Goo is Icy Hot! :jawdrop:


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## windthrown (Apr 30, 2009)

I posted a large list of mills closing and cutting back in the PNW on another thread. Its dismal. 20% unemployment in rural Oregon now. 12% statewide. We lead the nation now. The mills cannot run skelleton crews forever, and they cannot stay shut for long either. So a lot of the mills are going the way of the sawdust burners here. The next building boom will probably be supplied by imported lumber form Siberia. Or the logging industry will be socilized under ObamaVision, Inc. 

BTW: Chrystler Motors is going under as of today too. GM may not be far behind. We have a ways to go on this economic road to disaster.


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## Cedarkerf (Apr 30, 2009)

Feel for ya Burvol. Don't want to add to the gloom but Weyerhaeuser announced yesterday they're closing their export operation in Aberdeen.


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## mercer_me (Apr 30, 2009)

spencerhenry said:


> the current government is taking us down a road that will be very hard to come back from. they INTEND to put us out of business, it fits their vision of the world.



:agree2:
I think we will come out of it but it will be long and hard.


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## Taxmantoo (Apr 30, 2009)

Crofter said:


> I came hear in 1956 with the Uranium boom in Elliot lake (they called it Uranim City of the world)



That's sad. 
My family used to camp at nearby Mississagi Provincial Park for a couple of weeks each summer after black fly season. I used to like shopping in Elliot Lake when I was a little kid.


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## Gologit (Apr 30, 2009)

These are bad times. I've seen them come and go...our industry has a long history of boom times followed by times of extreme hardship. I don't ever remember, in my over forty years of being in the woods, times as bad as these. This is truly a depression.

I'm not much on politics or rhetoric. None of our politicians lately have really understood the working man...especially the logger. This isn't likely to change. Let's move past the partisan blame calling and start looking at our future.

Will the timber industry come back? Sure, it will. But it will take years...maybe a lot of them. Will it ever come back to anything even remotely like the good times of the past ten years? No, it won't. Not ever. The housing boom is over, the demand for lumber will never be that high again. In the lifetime of anyone reading this we will never see times such as we look back on now.

Young guys like Burvol, just beginning to work well at their craft, just beginning to get their feet under them after a long and arduous apprenticeship, are the hardest hit. A timber faller takes immense pride in his occupation and when there is no more timber to fall he is left confused and directionless. Where do you go and what do you do when the work you love most in the world evaporates before your very eyes? I wish I had answers but, like most people in my profession, I'm left with only questions and a feeling of uncertainty and impending doom.

I wish I could make up a couple of crews just out of the good men I know that are out of work, with no certainty of ever working again, around here. Fallers, Cat skinners, loaders, landing guys...you name it. We'd be a log-gettin', wood down the hill bunch...if anybody wanted the logs, which they don't. And if anybody would buy the wood, which they aren't

I couldn't honestly recommend a career in logging to a young guy just starting out with a wife and a kid and a mortgage. The future might hold more of what we're experiencing right now and we have no control over that. That kind of uncertainty doesn't feed the family.

Me, I'll stay in it. I'm close enough to the end of my string that I'll play it out. I'm too old to change, anyway. I always manage to scare up some kind of work but I have a vast network of people that I've accumulated over the years. Without those contacts I'd be just another guy with a bunch of dusty logging gear who's watching the mailbox for his unemployment check. Logging is what I do, it's who I am, and I'll stick with it until I can't pack in anymore.


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## Burvol (Apr 30, 2009)

I had some nice wood a few weeks ago and it all didn't last very long. I thought I was dreaming. 

This thinning job I'm doing is more than a blessing to me right now and I still get to be out in the woods with one of my powersaws. I can't complain...especially now. 

I grew up in logging family that has been at it for generations. Like Bob said, it's who we are. I do have alot of pride and love for cutting timber, it's the best job a hard worker could ever want. 

Yes, I remember all the talk as a kid hearing how bad it was at times, but this seems to be the real deal. I just hope that the housing bust and tough times kill us, not the environmentalist extremists. The prescriptions I recieved (keep it anymous) from a said agency show me little concern for what needs to happen. It's like they want to piss money away to show they tried. Frusterating. I have never claimed to know a hell of alot, but I know enough to see what is going on in the field, and know darn well what needs to happen. It's like what J. Browing was saying about a generation will be lost on mentoring and teaching the right ways to manage and harvest timber. That's what concerns me. I guess I just hate losing more than anything.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 30, 2009)

God bless you gologit.

I hope to make it to where you are one day. I admire dusty and old.


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## Burvol (Apr 30, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> All of this isn't new. Logging has been on the way out for over 20 years. "Engineered" lumber, synthetic building materials, and reclamation has streamlined the way builders use materials and the need for continued processed new lumber. The strongest market in the last ten years besides the exports has been custom-dimension sawn lumber.
> 
> If you look at America's economic base stretching back 30 years, we've moved from a manufacturing and export economy to a service economy. What this basically means is that you'll have to trade your chainsaws in for other tools.



Of course Jacob, I hear you. I grew up through some of those times. Yes, the demand for lumber is nothing like the baby boomers saw, but it is also still going to be needed for remodels, additions, framing for concrete, bridges, ect. I thought Obama's idea of keeping it all in house while fixing America's bridges, highways, ect. was a decent bandaid to help the timber industry too, but I doubt that would help either. I just know that some people are seeing a bigger sprial that is coming. I will always be able to find some work doing something, but I am concerned for the first time in my life about how our Country is doing.


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## Humptulips (Apr 30, 2009)

I look back and it seems to me mechanization has done more to ruin the woods then anything. These are tough times to be sure but it will pass and logs will be leaving the woods again. The question is how many jobs will still be there. When I started in the woods we went to work in a bus and the cutters had there own crew bus besides. Now the whole crew rides in a pickup. Shovel, processor and a buncher. Three guys do the work a dozen used to do. It's the same way all through the wood products industry. How many men have been eliminated in the mills?
The logging towns are dieing and there's not much can be done about it. No future in logging.


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## M.R. (Apr 30, 2009)

http://www.lagrandeobserver.com/News/Local-News/Boise-to-close-sawmill

Had a locksmith make some keys to fit a service body box a couple of weeks ago, this is the slowest he's seen in 26-27 years.


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## redprospector (May 1, 2009)

Hang on boy's. It's going to get a *LOT* worse before it get's better. Just going to have to dig in our heel's.

Andy


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## windthrown (May 1, 2009)

Well, its now more like it was here when I was a kid. Oregon was always bumping along from recession to recession. I never saw it as good as it was in logging from 2004-2006 in my lifetime up here. May never happen again. 

Anyway, its not just logging. 3 major store chains have gone under here (Circuit City, Linens 'n Things, and most recently GI Joes). Several banks have failed or have been bought out (WaMu in particular). Four or five major housing builders here have gone bust here in the past 6 months. Housing here is not as bad as California... yet. Our old house in Monterey was up to 1 million in appraised value, and now it is back to 500k. That's a 50% drop. I have never seen housing drop like that before. 

I have been though 2 other industrial booms and busts in my lifetime. I was in the Reagan/Bush military peak and meltdown in San Diego in the 80's and early 90's. Then the tech bubble in the SF Bay Area in the late 90's and the meltdown in '01. I rode that out through '04. 

As the fortune cookie says, "May you live in interesting times."


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## 2dogs (May 1, 2009)

Makes me glad I'm 56 but I fear for my kids. The 911 center my works for is instituing mandatory furloughs next month. Still we (the City) massively fund the arts, adult soccer, roundabouts, concrete planter boxes, medical marijuana, homeless services, the police review board, and other money toilets. Contractors still spend a year just trying to get a building permit, every fee the City can raise they are, $12,000 for a residential fire sprinkler connection that takes a 3 man crew 3 hours (less patch) to complete.

The School Board just voted to eliminate sports next year in one vote. Then they spent the rest of the meeting discussing the menu at the high schools so the students can't buy food they will eat. They can buy coffee but no bagels, no muffins, no burgers or fries or soft drinks, no burritos, no candy. All this includes football games. The various clubs bend the rules as much as they can. 

I feel like I am in a handbasket.


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## ak4195 (May 1, 2009)

*Deer in the headlights.....*

Doesnt have to be this way......
Public works coming down the pike.Im 1/2 way thru my initial apprenticeship training for Operating Engineers Service Oiler,if these kids Im shoulder to shoulder with are representative of my competition,Im gonna eat there breakfast...LITERALY...
Cant work,dont want to work,dont know how to work,theres big project supervisors out there looking for real workers Burvol,but most likely it'll take a big adjustment on your part.
Life has a way of making you cry "uncle".
At 48 Im the oldest apprentice here,and D*MN glad to be here,glad to just have a chance.My homesite excavation buddies aint doin much at all...
No house building,no timber use,no loggers.....

ak4195


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## Tree Sling'r (May 1, 2009)

One thing about is, the state of health our federal forests are in fires are nearly a gaurantee.
I have not worked since Oct. 30 of last year and am better off. With savings, un-employment and saw money on the side it adds up - the biggie is that I have 0 expense. Where as when cutting logs the expense out weighs the profits anymore.
Maybe I will be a cull and exercise everyday, mod saws, collect un-employment and go on fires.
Sounds good to me...


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## M.R. (May 1, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> One thing about is, the state of health our federal forests are in fires are nearly a gaurantee.
> I have not worked since Oct. 30 of last year and am better off. With savings, un-employment and saw money on the side it adds up - the biggie is that I have 0 expense. Where as when cutting logs the expense out weighs the profits anymore.
> Maybe I will be a cull and exercise everyday, mod saws, collect un-employment and go on fires.
> Sounds good to me...



Glad, you're getting by, I would have sent the saw we talked about, down to you, but one of the other halves girlfriends lost her house & these funds [unknown to me] were used for storage thru the end of June for her house hold goods, she went to Portland to stay with family & find work to try to get back on her feet.


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## Meadow Beaver (May 1, 2009)

I know this isn't positive but, everything is downhill from here.


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## windthrown (May 1, 2009)

Well, we will hit bottom at some point. Economics goes through cycles. This bottom is apt to be long and flat though.


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## Burvol (May 1, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> One thing about is, the state of health our federal forests are in fires are nearly a gaurantee.
> I have not worked since Oct. 30 of last year and am better off. With savings, un-employment and saw money on the side it adds up - the biggie is that I have 0 expense. Where as when cutting logs the expense out weighs the profits anymore.
> Maybe I will be a cull and exercise everyday, mod saws, collect un-employment and go on fires.
> Sounds good to me...



That sounds good. I'd be on the Salmon and Steelhead every night.


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## funky sawman (May 1, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> I know this isn't positive but, everything is downhill from here.



YEP, untill 2012 anyways then things might change DURASTICALLY
But I will keep sawing as long as their is gas and air to breath even if it's illigal in a few years, I will still do it and go out in flying colures cutten a big cedar or somthing.


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## windthrown (May 1, 2009)

Oh yah, 2012, the end of the Mayan Calendar. They predicted that would be end of the world.


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## funky sawman (May 1, 2009)

The only thing I can say is enjoy life while we can. I gonna cut as much wood as I can this year, I will even cut some for the people in need and churches. God bless anyone not keeping warm.


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## Jtheo (May 1, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I can't help but be concerned for me, my whole family, friends, and logger buddies here. But....everyone here will feel it too. It is mind blowing when you no longer take logs, *anywhere*. We are heading into some dark times, things that we will never forget.
> 
> The market has finally collapsed in my area. Gone. The Chip market is suppose to be viable in 2013 here. No one wants to cut logs until around 2012 here. Our export yard is set to close permantly as well.
> 
> ...



I agree with you that this seems planned.

However, I believe that it has been planned by a few of the Wall Street Bankers or ultra wealthy men.

They want General Motors to fail, so they can buy it for 10 cents on the dollar.

Same thing for anything else that goes under, land, businesses, houses.

Happened after the 29 crash. This group wants it to happen again.


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## weimedog (May 2, 2009)

We are paying the price for hiring the rest of the world to build our products. I watched our machine tool business dissappear in the 1970's and 1980's, was a part of the "Technology" transfer of the 1990's and knew we we in serious trouble when IBM sold off its PC business to a Chinese company..at the beginning of this decade.

I saw the maufacturing sub industries fold from founderies to stamping as we "out sourced" our entire manufacturing sector to those who don't have our best interests at heart.

I watched our States and Local governements subsidize foreign car manufactures to compete with our own home grown companies and the "pop" culture (Liberalizm) attempt destroy all things technical from our past..from our manufacturing to our military.

We have been destroying piece by piece everything structural our forefathers fought to build.

We as a nation actively have supported these trends for years and years with our dollars and our politics...you reap what you sow.

Will this turn? I certainly hope so. For my kids and yours.


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## Meadow Beaver (May 3, 2009)

funky sawman said:


> The only thing I can say is enjoy life while we can. I gonna cut as much wood as I can this year, I will even cut some for the people in need and churches. God bless anyone not keeping warm.



That sounds great, cut it all. See around here specifically where I live, there really isn't any regulations on cutting. If want to go in the woods or in my yard cuz I saw a big hooter I want to cut, no one is going to stop me. We don't have hippies either, with quarrying and logging combined the hippies would get killed around here.


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## Eq Broker (May 5, 2009)

You are correct! I lost my job in December selling Forestry and Arborist Equipment. You may have to come up with alternative ways of selling your logs. In Alabama and Georgia our mills have closed or gone to limited hours. I don't know if you eat chickens in Oregon but the mills closing in Alabama and Georgia have created a problem with the chicken farmer as he may have to wait up to 3-4 weeks to get wood shavings for the bedding. The sawmills were providing them the bedding material. In Georgia we are the second largest user of wood chips as a fuel. You might want to see if there is a pelletizing plant around you. These pellets are used in England in a big way.
I know of a plant in Alabama shipping 10 million dollars worth of pellets. I know our economic outlook is bleak at best. Hopefully, these ideas may give you other avenues of selling your logs.

Equipment Broker


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## Meadow Beaver (May 5, 2009)

People don't realize how the loggin industry can effect everything.


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## TimberMcPherson (May 5, 2009)

I was brought up in a forestry,hydrodam and farming area. The school I went to in Atiamuri village had near 200 kids. Alot including my best mate Glen lived nearby in Ohakuri village that was there to service the nearby dam where Glens dad worked. Atiamuri village had pools, golf course, bowling clubs, halls,an ambulance service, a garage and was generally a great little tight community. If bored with the playground there were always old D9's and skidders to play on near the school. The forestry gang trucks were everywhere. As kids we knew alot of the logging truck drivers by name and some kids came to school by horse which browsed the playing fields and nearby paddocks.

The feller bunchers came in then log prices fell, they mechanised the hydrodams and the villages started to die. Dam staff went from something like 60 to 5 full timers. Glens dad lost his job and ended up luckily getting a job in town as a mechanic. Glens Uncle and cousins lost there jobs. Ohakuri village is now NOTHING but an empty dead end road with some random but lovely trees. 
My younger brother didnt get to finish his time at atiamuri school because it closed so he had to go to school in town, spending over 2 hours on a bus every day.
The boys who could leave school at 16 and start breaking out on skid sites or get an apprenticehip at the dams found there was nothign for them.
The good people moved out and the bad moved in. Retired men who had built the village and dams in the 50's had to watch it all go to crap and there families leave. There were no jobs. 

I worked a hundred short jobs on farms, did hay and silage contracting, drove cattle trucks, milked cows, sprayed weeds, worked as an industrial absieler on the dams, painted transformers, pumped gas, pruned, picked up bales, crotched sheep, built cowsheds, fenced, picked up dead stock, did some mechanical and panel work. Anything I could get to make some money. But in that area that I had been brought up in and had all my friends and family just wasnt going to give me any security. So I packed up my car and left to a city I had only visited a few times to stay with friends while I looked for work.

In some ways I was lucky because I had so very little so could only move upwards. 

Sadly these things happen everywhere. Change. Boom, bust, supply, demand, technology and redundance.


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## Mike Van (May 6, 2009)

Hey, I'm no expert on the economy for sure - One thing I see & think though is 'the economy' as we knew it was running on some false ideals. There were how many thousands of houses being built and sold to people that 20 years ago would not & could not qualify for a mortgage. Now these houses sit empty, reposesed by a bank or lending company because people were extended credit they could not afford. These were not 'starter homes' either, many are mini-mansions 4000 sf and up. The sub divisions of the 50's and 60's [small sensible houses] weren't good enough anymore. Nowadays people wanted "The Dream Home" to start out with. In my crystal ball, I see the lumber market staying flat [or lower] until people start to buy some of these reposesed homes, and the banks and mortagage companies have some $$$$$ to work with. The paper & pulp industry however, will be booming - As there is so much bullsh*t around Washington DC, that the need for toilet paper will be at an all time high. They love their paperwork too, those politicians.


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## Gologit (May 6, 2009)

Mike Van said:


> Hey, I'm no expert on the economy for sure - One thing I see & think though is 'the economy' as we knew it was running on some false ideals. There were how many thousands of houses being built and sold to people that 20 years ago would not & could not qualify for a mortgage. Now these houses sit empty, reposesed by a bank or lending company because people were extended credit they could not afford. These were not 'starter homes' either, many are mini-mansions 4000 sf and up. The sub divisions of the 50's and 60's [small sensible houses] weren't good enough anymore. Nowadays people wanted "The Dream Home" to start out with. In my crystal ball, I see the lumber market staying flat [or lower] until people start to buy some of these reposesed homes, and the banks and mortagage companies have some $$$$$ to work with. The paper & pulp industry however, will be booming - As there is so much bullsh*t around Washington DC, that the need for toilet paper will be at an all time high. They love their paperwork too, those politicians.



Well said.


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## spencerhenry (May 6, 2009)

a few good natural disasters might help with some demand.


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## ak4195 (May 6, 2009)

Housing picking up with the spring here recently,but some of that I think is due to the natural geographical land locked nature of Anchorage,how long it lasts hard to say of course,things will never go back to the go-go days of 2000-2004,but should remain steady.My excavation buddies are backed up 15 houses,and thats with DOT spring time weight restrictions.
Like the old saying goes,"location,location,location"...

ak4195


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## slowp (May 6, 2009)

I'm disappointed. Went out to see what was happening at the Moneypit, and the workers doing the sheetrocking seem to be Exchange Students. They're about done, but I'm disappointed. Maybe I'm wrong and they are Instate Students? So much for local guys as far as sheetrocking goes.


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## Meadow Beaver (May 7, 2009)

The American gov't wants to tax us for the country we live in, but they want to pay other people for the work we should be doing. THAT'S ONE OF OUR BIGGEST PROBLEMS!


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## Matildasmate (May 7, 2009)

*Bushpig*



windthrown said:


> I posted a large list of mills closing and cutting back in the PNW on another thread. Its dismal. 20% unemployment in rural Oregon now. 12% statewide. We lead the nation now. The mills cannot run skelleton crews forever, and they cannot stay shut for long either. So a lot of the mills are going the way of the sawdust burners here. The next building boom will probably be supplied by imported lumber form Siberia. Or the logging industry will be socilized under ObamaVision, Inc.
> 
> BTW: Chrystler Motors is going under as of today too. GM may not be far behind. We have a ways to go on this economic road to disaster.



I think some of you blokes need to wake up , you lot had old bushpig in for how many years? makeing a complete shamozel of things and just before he leaves office , the crap hits the fan , my pet pig has more brains in one of his turds than he ever had , then as soon as obama gets in office , what happens , all the brainless turkeys blame him , the smartest thing that has happened to your country in years , is the electing of president Obama . Cheers MM


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## Meadow Beaver (May 8, 2009)

Burvol, it's the pathetic truth about our country. We buy our steel from Asia, import oil from the Middle East, send our oil from Alaska to Asia, we get our potatos from ASIA! Even our military technology is so poor that we could make every part on our M1-A2 Abrams tank, but we have to get the barrels from Germany. Our country is dependent on every country except itself.


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## hammerlogging (May 8, 2009)

Matildasmate said:


> I think some of you blokes need to wake up , you lot had old bushpig in for how many years? makeing a complete shamozel of things and just before he leaves office , the crap hits the fan , my pet pig has more brains in one of his turds than he ever had , then as soon as obama gets in office , what happens , all the brainless turkeys blame him , the smartest thing that has happened to your country in years , is the electing of president Obama . Cheers MM



Word up dude, I'm glad for the Obama change.... and I cut full time everyday..... imagine that. Plus, env. regs gets more of the rif raf out of the woods so those of us that excel can overcome, meanwhile sustaining a viable industry into the future.
Future? Yeah, so my kids can be loggers too. If that means fulfilling biological AND societal expectations, so be it.


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## redprospector (May 9, 2009)

Matildasmate said:


> I think some of you blokes need to wake up , you lot had old bushpig in for how many years? makeing a complete shamozel of things and just before he leaves office , the crap hits the fan , my pet pig has more brains in one of his turds than he ever had , then as soon as obama gets in office , what happens , all the brainless turkeys blame him , the smartest thing that has happened to your country in years , is the electing of president Obama . Cheers MM



Well, I'm no fan of Bush. But if Obama keeps it up at the rate he's going, he will far exceed Bush at screw ups. But that's ok, our grandkids can pay for it.

Andy


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## bullbuck (May 10, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I can't help but be concerned for me, my whole family, friends, and logger buddies here. But....everyone here will feel it too. It is mind blowing when you no longer take logs, *anywhere*. We are heading into some dark times, things that we will never forget.
> 
> The market has finally collapsed in my area. Gone. The Chip market is suppose to be viable in 2013 here. No one wants to cut logs until around 2012 here. Our export yard is set to close permantly as well.
> 
> ...



amen brother!reads just like gospel to me!that is exactly the plan that big government has for the common working man,i mean what does this country produce anymore?absolutely nothing!i see in the next fifteen years or maybe less the only thing i see americans being known as is green just a self righteous title to stand by and let the country decay into a worthless bunch of do gooders that do nothin!here wherei am the government has pushed out the ranchers almost to the point of extintion(they were here long before any govt jockey came rollin down the pipe)they have the loggers on the ropes and off road vehichles are being persecuted like frickin criminals,but yet the f.s.just got a brand new multi million dollar complex here on the mountain with probably 55 brand new 50,000 dolar trucks lined up with an idential complex to match twenty five miles from it!we are on the chopping block now make no mistake about it people!p.s.by the way if anyone could tell me what the forest service actually does during the day i would love to know because i have lived here 33 years and i still do not know?


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## Gologit (May 10, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> amen brother!reads just like gospel to me!that is exactly the plan that big government has for the common working man,i mean what does this country produce anymore?absolutely nothing!i see in the next fifteen years or maybe less the only thing i see americans being known as is green just a self righteous title to stand by and let the country decay into a worthless bunch of do gooders that do nothin!here wherei am the government has pushed out the ranchers almost to the point of extintion(they were here long before any govt jockey came rollin down the pipe)they have the loggers on the ropes and off road vehichles are being persecuted like frickin criminals,but yet the f.s.just got a brand new multi million dollar complex here on the mountain with probably 55 brand new 50,000 dolar trucks lined up with an idential complex to match twenty five miles from it!we are on the chopping block now make no mistake about it people!p.s.by the way if anyone could tell me what the forest service actually does during the day i would love to know because i have lived here 33 years and i still do not know?



Well, out here they drive around a lot in their new pickups. They get lost a lot, too, and wind up over on private ground and don't even know it. They put up signs in the woods...lots of signs...Smokey the Bear stuff. They change the toilet paper rolls in the campgrounds...but not very often. They go to a lot of meetings and conferences and training sessions...and stay in motels and eat fancy meals at taxpayer expense. They send a lot of memos and emails back and forth amongst themselves...they all agree with each other but the amount of paperwork they generate is considered when career opportunities arise. They go out and drive around some more. 

Oh, wait a minute. You were wondering what they do that's good and useful, right? Let me think about that. I'll think about it real hard when I drive through one of the burns that's full of good pine and fir and cedar from last summer that they haven't even put up for bid yet because they're still out driving around. And putting up signs. And having meetings.

What do they do that's useful? I'm still thinking about it. If I think of anything I'll let you know.


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## bullbuck (May 10, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Well, out here they drive around a lot in their new pickups. They get lost a lot, too, and wind up over on private ground and don't even know it. They put up signs in the woods...lots of signs...Smokey the Bear stuff. They change the toilet paper rolls in the campgrounds...but not very often. They go to a lot of meetings and conferences and training sessions...and stay in motels and eat fancy meals at taxpayer expense. They send a lot of memos and emails back and forth amongst themselves...they all agree with each other but the amount of paperwork they generate is considered when career opportunities arise. They go out and drive around some more.
> 
> Oh, wait a minute. You were wondering what they do that's good and useful, right? Let me think about that. I'll think about it real hard when I drive through one of the burns that's full of good pine and fir and cedar from last summer that they haven't even put up for bid yet because they're still out driving around. And putting up signs. And having meetings.
> 
> What do they do that's useful? I'm still thinking about it. If I think of anything I'll let you know.


ok i think i am following you paperwork followed by meetings to push the paperwork leading to a need to drive the paperwork around to meet with other paperpushers and possibly do some printing to produce more paperwork that ultimately puts the pinch on your salvage contract needed to produce more paper?and we wonder why this country is in the toilet!


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## slowp (May 10, 2009)

Well, since I am they. I go to work in the morning with plan A. I see if the phone is lit up, what with the market so bad, it usually isn't. Then I check the e-mail and delete a lot of junk. Sometimes I don't check the e-mail cuz I want to stay in a good mood. Then I find out that I need to do Plan B so I have to wait, and wait, for the Plan B co-worker to show up. But, if I can escape, I climb into my was brand new pickup that the FS gets a bulk price for so it might look like $50,000 but actually cost $18,000. I escape to the woods and I drive and follow the snow line. I cut out the blowdown. I don't change toilet paper, it looks kind of gross anyway cuz it's been rolling around on the pickup floor for a while. 

A woodcutter pulls up, and begins to tell me exactly how screwed up the government is and how he could fix it all, and by the way, can I mark that off the road 300 feet old growth DF that is located in LSR (owl) territory? He really needs the wood, he's retired and on a fixed income. I've seen him hauling load after load to his house, and he isn't starving and should have his limit of wood. His pickup probably did cost $50,000. (see, I make assumptions too.) I get to control my emotions and calmly explain the rules of woodcutting, which he darn well knows already. Then he will reply with more of the same criticism. I will point out that the large hemlock blocking the road is legal to cut and much easier than rasselling the DF chunks down/up the hill, but he doesn't want hemlock or anything smaller than 48" diameter. So he drives off and I proceed to clear the road. 

The day continues. When I'm too tired to safely run the saw, I might go see how much repair is going to be needed on another road--it might get hauled on this year, might not. I have to figure out whether to get the engineers involved--that makes for more complications. I avoid the office, bad things happen there. If it is a drier day, I'll wander through the Fell and Buck that got left in a hurry when the market collapsed and has just shown up out of the snow. I'll notice things to bring to the attention of the loggers, like longbutting for a pitch ring a couple inches in diameter, or note those 5 gallon buckets of some kind of petroleum product left behind along with some used filters. When I come back in and the phone is lit up, I shudder. 

Right now, I'm doing plan B. Laying out timber sale units. And although I'd like to wander about with a full coffee cup in one hand, phone in the other, post holing through the snow makes that a little bit treacherous. Yup, I'm happily skipping and hopping through the snow, which ranges from bareness to waist deep, thinking of more conspiracies to foist on the unsuspecting public. 

They don't let us carry guns so I can't disarm everybody, and I'm near sighted and getting hard of hearing and so I can't spy and eavesdrop. So, my plans for controlling the world must be put on hold. Sorry about that.....


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## bullbuck (May 10, 2009)

slowp said:


> Well, since I am they. I go to work in the morning with plan A.  I see if the phone is lit up, what with the market so bad, it usually isn't. Then I check the e-mail and delete a lot of junk. Sometimes I don't check the e-mail cuz I want to stay in a good mood. Then I find out that I need to do Plan B so I have to wait, and wait, for the Plan B co-worker to show up. But, if I can escape, I climb into my was brand new pickup that the FS gets a bulk price for so it might look like $50,000 but actually cost $18,000. I escape to the woods and I drive and follow the snow line. I cut out the blowdown. I don't change toilet paper, it looks kind of gross anyway cuz it's been rolling around on the pickup floor for a while.
> 
> A woodcutter pulls up, and begins to tell me exactly how screwed up the government is and how he could fix it all, and by the way, can I mark that off the road 300 feet old growth DF that is located in LSR (owl) territory? He really needs the wood, he's retired and on a fixed income. I've seen him hauling load after load to his house, and he isn't starving and should have his limit of wood. His pickup probably did cost $50,000. (see, I make assumptions too.) I get to control my emotions and calmly explain the rules of woodcutting, which he darn well knows already. Then he will reply with more of the same criticism. I will point out that the large hemlock blocking the road is legal to cut and much easier than rasselling the DF chunks down/up the hill, but he doesn't want hemlock or anything smaller than 48" diameter. So he drives off and I proceed to clear the road.
> 
> ...


well hey i did not mean to offend you sound like a government worker that makes it a point to fill out their day!kudos well that is great that the trucks that you guys buy are only 18,000 but who gets to eat the other 12,000 or so?does thatfall on detroit?oh well they are getting bailed out anyways?i have nothing against forest service workers it is the policies that they have allowed to be implemented when i like at our timbersale maps there is an overlay of either butterfly salamander or soon to be who knows what will be listed next leaving us the loggers a minimal window to get the wood moved,so your nightmare is passed on to us as well,unfortunately i do know a bit about the way the government operates we take our dozers on initial attack ff and in the first 48 we can really put in some line and see results but as soon as that window of oppurtunity ceases its time to either ping pong that biscuit back to life or milk that smoke for all its worth!it is not just me that is disgusted i have had this discussion with every one of my dozer bosses and they all agree if it seems logical or efficient dont you dare do it!but i am also guilty of milking the government they just pay too good!did not mean to offend. just another working class whore!


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## Ske-bum (May 10, 2009)

Mike Van said:


> Hey, I'm no expert on the economy for sure - One thing I see & think though is 'the economy' as we knew it was running on some false ideals. There were how many thousands of houses being built and sold to people that 20 years ago would not & could not qualify for a mortgage. Now these houses sit empty, reposesed by a bank or lending company because people were extended credit they could not afford. .



This is exactly right. The ecomony was drunk on cheap credit and greed. Point fingers wherever you want there is plenty of blame to go around. The U.S. is now de-coupling from this boom of credit and it is a long and painful ordeal. 

Now will the ecomony come back, yes. It dropped so far so fast that it will come back to a more normal level as evidenced by the stock market coming back over the last two months. Will it come back to '06 &'07 levels; No, that was artifically high. Will it come back fast enough to help the mills right now, sadly, probably not.

Housing inventories are dropping and people are starting to spend money again, slowly. If you have GOOD credit there are deals out there, the key word being GOOD credit. People will start to build again, there will be demand for wood again, it just takes time, which a lot of people don't have.


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## Matildasmate (May 10, 2009)

redprospector said:


> Well, I'm no fan of Bush. But if Obama keeps it up at the rate he's going, he will far exceed Bush at screw ups. But that's ok, our grandkids can pay for it.
> 
> Andy



Yeah I agree , we have the same crap going on here , with stimulus packages and bailouts . Obama is probably just as slimey as bush , but this sends a good message to the black people of America and the rest of the world , which will only be good for your country . We also are starting to have major problems over here with employment , sawmills , forests , car makers etc , all cutting shifts and laying off workers . I remember about 15-20 years ago when they really started all this bull about the global economy and competeing with the rest of the world and the speil about a closed economies , meaning to trade in your own country only would be a closed economy , well I reckon all it ever was about was lowering our wages , does anyone think we can compete with child labor or the poorest of poor and as for this closed economy bull , at the end of the day isnt earth a closed economy , do we compete with the martians next:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:Cheers MM


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## slowp (May 10, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> well hey i did not mean to offend you sound like a government worker that makes it a point to fill out their day!kudos well that is great that the trucks that you guys buy are only 18,000 but who gets to eat the other 12,000 or so?does thatfall on detroit?oh well they are getting bailed out anyways?i have nothing against forest service workers it is the policies that they have allowed to be implemented when i like at our timbersale maps there is an overlay of either butterfly salamander or soon to be who knows what will be listed next leaving us the loggers a minimal window to get the wood moved,so your nightmare is passed on to us as well,unfortunately i do know a bit about the way the government operates we take our dozers on initial attack ff and in the first 48 we can really put in some line and see results but as soon as that window of oppurtunity ceases its time to either ping pong that biscuit back to life or milk that smoke for all its worth!it is not just me that is disgusted i have had this discussion with every one of my dozer bosses and they all agree if it seems logical or efficient dont you dare do it!but i am also guilty of milking the government they just pay too good!did not mean to offend. just another working class whore!



Fires are where anything goes. I used to go on them and get mad. I don't anymore and I think things are worse now. I hear there is now laundry service and airconditioned trailers. So much for the whole crew sleeping under a thrown together tarp contraption and jokes about turning underwear inside out....nah, we had washboards and tubs for laundry in camp then. The dark ages.


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## bullbuck (May 10, 2009)

slowp said:


> Fires are where anything goes. I used to go on them and get mad. I don't anymore and I think things are worse now. I hear there is now laundry service and airconditioned trailers. So much for the whole crew sleeping under a thrown together tarp contraption and jokes about turning underwear inside out....nah, we had washboards and tubs for laundry in camp then. The dark ages.


thats funny about the underwear!sounds like you where fighting fire when you either went direct or ran for your life!real firefighting!yeah things have definately changed since those days,we have a standing joke we came up with and unfortunatelyis almost the truth,it is that the reason why they cannot fight the fire is because the t-shirts have not arrived yet!funny but i started looking around at camp and the t's really are for sale sometimes the first day!i have only been on a handful of fires on dozer but i have an interesting story we had been called to the capitans i think 3 years ago?cant remember anyways dropped my machine at d.p.1 at the mouth of capitan gap to await instruction about 5 in the evening(by the way im sure you know but this is the range where they found smoky the bear)...so anyways head back to camp to check out the t-shirts and we are starting to hear rumor tha they are going to'backfire'capitan gap next thing i know as i hold my plate of poached quail or whatever the fantastic meal was?the skies grow red and i mean camp is probably 8 miles as the crow flies from any smoke,needless to say very impressive sight!so i will get to the point!being as this was the only fire going in the nation at the time we had every resource in the lower 48 there,but somehow the fire only stopped when it reached the desert floor!go figure?i did not dare wear f.s.colors in the town of capitan,by the waythey smoked the gap including the tree that smokey the bear was found in!frickin classic!


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