# Ailanthus Removal Tips



## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

In another forum (Chainsaws), I was advised to be especially careful working with ailanthus. I understand that it is really brittle. For those of you that have worked on removals like this, can you talk a little bit about how those removals went? Any surprises? Any suggestions?

Attached are some photos of the tree I've been asked to look at.


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

Sorry...that's a really annoying image to try and look at. How do I scale it down to a more viewable size???


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 2, 2006)

www.irfanview.com OR

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/photofiltre.html



Free. Good. What's not to like?


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

Let's see if this helps...same photos only I tried to shrink them.


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

Tom D. said:


> Let's see if this helps...same photos only I tried to shrink them.



Looks better on my PC...please let me know if they're not a reasonable size on your machine and I'll try to figure out why.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 2, 2006)

They look good, Tom.


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## Grace Tree (Aug 2, 2006)

The only real structure damage I've ever caused was an Ailanthus removal. 30 feet of gutter. Spent half a day rigging the tops out of a live double stem 60 footer. I blocked one side down. The other side had a slight lean and had a defect with lots of ants about 4 ft. up so I left a high stump to stand on on the one I'd already taken down so I could cut in the good wood above the defect. I had a pull line up at the top and my most reliable puller behind the wheel of the truck. I figured I'd cut a shallow notch with lots of hinge and jump down and let him pop it off the stump. I made the back cut and never even got the chance to turn the saw off. Pop-crash! I've never seen a tree go down so fast or so wrong in my life. It swatted the gutter off on the way down. I've done lots of TOHs but that one truly shook my confidence. No fiber pulls on the break. It had the consistancy of compacted oatmeal. I still do them. I just don't trust them as much as I once did and if I have the option I bring bucket in rather than climb them. Unfortunatley, most of the ones around here are in someones tight backyard in the city so a bucket's not always an option. They're sometime stinky and the bark seems hard on ropes and lanyards so use a friction saver if you have one. Other than that they're darn near perfect. 
Phil


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## moss (Aug 2, 2006)

At least it's alive. This a question for the experienced climbers out there. Is it fair to say the Ailanthus wood is similar to Eastern Cottonwood, probably a little less dense? I'm thinking it would be a good idea to always be double-crotched when climbing up high in an Ailanthus.

I was looking at the sliced up chunks of a 60+ year-old Ailanthus that was cut down in my neighborhood. The heartwood was surprisingly dense for a species with such light wood. This was a healthy tree.
-moss


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## Dadatwins (Aug 2, 2006)

Love those 40' x 80' postage stamp backyards  Very brittle trees, double and triple crotch all your rigging and the less shock loading the better. I am assuming you are climbing this one so double tie-in all the way. DO NOT try any limb walking, the limbs will not hold any weight, they barely hold them selves. I would work that tree from the inside around the larger main stem and rig it using a pole saw to tip tie the brush so the butts come down first and the tips do not swing around. Have to be careful if you tie butt heavy because when the tips swings against the tree it splatters and goes everywhere. Wood is very soft and cuts like butter, also smells like cat piss. It does not hold notches well and snaps more than rips. Very little fiber if any in the wood. Splits real easy also and will burn like paper after it dries out. Be careful cutting at the base, they grow so fast the usually have nails and other metal in them. Look for blue or brown stains in the grain of the wood before making the cuts is an indicator of metal below. Be careful at least that one still has leaves, they are a real PIA when the are dead.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 2, 2006)

I agree with all the above. They can be a real pita. Have seen branches break off with very little weight applied to them. They are really bad if you have to pull over a leaning stem-they don't hinge they just snap off! I was once in one when the limb I was tied into suddenly broke off. I was tied around the tree but I broke three other limbs before the rope finally caught one that would hold. Always tied in twice since. Be careful.


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

Well, it sounds like all are in agreement...this one will be a real challenge (for me, anyway). To paraphrase the advice so far, I need to back-up all my protection / rigging and don't count on hinges holding up much at all. And no limb walking.

Folllow-up question: as this is a complete removal, I plan on climbing w/ my gaffs (and yes, I'll be sure to keep a climbing line and lanyard in place)...how well will this wood support my gaffs? Can I expect them to tear out easier than usual?


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## Dadatwins (Aug 2, 2006)

Tom D. said:


> Folllow-up question: as this is a complete removal, I plan on climbing w/ my gaffs (and yes, I'll be sure to keep a climbing line and lanyard in place)...how well will this wood support my gaffs? Can I expect them to tear out easier than usual?



Because it is a softer wood gaffs will sink into the wood more than hard wood, oak / maple / hickory. Live wood should hold fine but be cautious as stated the wood has very little fiber and hold. Dead atlanthus on the other hand like spiking up a pile of wet newspaper. 
On keeping your laynard on make sure you are tied in to the mains on that tree, do not rely on the limb conections to offer support. be careful


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## beowulf343 (Aug 2, 2006)

Tom D. said:


> Well, it sounds like all are in agreement...this one will be a real challenge (for me, anyway). To paraphrase the advice so far, I need to back-up all my protection / rigging and don't count on hinges holding up much at all. And no limb walking.
> 
> Folllow-up question: as this is a complete removal, I plan on climbing w/ my gaffs (and yes, I'll be sure to keep a climbing line and lanyard in place)...how well will this wood support my gaffs? Can I expect them to tear out easier than usual?


When climbing these, I usually switch to my shorter gaffs. If you are a big man, 3 1/2" gaffs will sink too deep and you will spend the climb trying to yank out your gaffs. (Of course as you are yanking out one spike, you are putting more weight on the other thus causing it to sink in deeper and so on up the tree.)


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

For planning purposes, can anyone tell me the approximate density of this stuff? 

From the pictures I've got (I have yet to make the hour long drive to get a firsthand look), it appears to have a slight lean into the yard (a good thing). The basic plan is to remove what I can aloft, leave a rope tied-in up high, and drop the rest from the ground. If for some bizarre reason this tree wants to fall toward the fence or garage, that's a real problem. I want to take every precaution I can think of. Any other suggestions?

I'm wondering if it's time to get a rigging line heavier than the 1/2 " I've been using. Recommendations? You guys are making me paranoid (another good thing).

Gotta love this armchair treework...


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> When climbing these, I usually switch to my shorter gaffs. If you are a big man, 3 1/2" gaffs will sink too deep and you will spend the climb trying to yank out your gaffs. (Of course as you are yanking out one spike, you are putting more weight on the other thus causing it to sink in deeper and so on up the tree.)



Been there, done that. What a pain. Although I am working on being less of a "big man" (with a fair amount of success, I might add!) I'll put the short gaffs on....nice tip, thanks.


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## Stumper (Aug 2, 2006)

Tips and dead wood are very brittle but green wrist sized and larger behaves fairly well.....so long as you don't try to walk stuff around on the hingewood. Maneuvers that you would perform on healthy Oak, Ash or Mulberry may not be apropriate with Ailanthus but it isnt totally lacking in strength. The smallwood is pithy but the larger branches are actually fairly dense-just easy to split with fibers that break easily.
Think of a graduated scale.
Concrete has strength but is pretty inflexible-call it a 1
Hickory is strong and highly elastic and flexible-call it 10
Lets call green Apple a 5.
Live Ailanthus might merit a 3 on such a scale.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 2, 2006)

No reason to be paranoid about the tree just respectful and mindful of its properties. Pretty straightforward removal even in the small yard. 1/2" lowering line plenty strong for this tree. As for pulling over in those small yards I would usually chunk it down down 3' sections to about 15' - 20 ' high and drop the shaft. The brush and limbs are very light, but the wood when green like yours is extremely heavy and dense with water. I would guess a green atlanthus log weight as much or more than oak. Expect to find dirt and rocks in those base cuts, leave it a bit high and let the stump grinder deal with it. Good tip with the short spikes, I kick around 250 dressed and can bury a pair of the tree spikes pretty good without trying.


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## moss (Aug 2, 2006)

Dadatwins said:


> Dead atlanthus on the other hand like spiking up a pile of wet newspaper.



My favorite quote ever on Arboristsite :biggrinbounce2: 

The number of climbers who specialize in taking down dead Ailanthus in impossible locations must be countable on one hand. I've heard some good stories, like passing Ailanthus chunks in through an apartment window and on to an elevator to get the tree parts out of a closed alley. A long way to the chipper I suspect.


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## Tom D. (Aug 2, 2006)

moss said:


> My favorite quote ever on Arboristsite :biggrinbounce2:
> 
> The number of climbers who specialize in taking down dead Ailanthus in impossible locations must be countable on one hand. I've heard some good stories, like passing Ailanthus chunks in through an apartment window and on to an elevator to get the tree parts out of a closed alley. A long way to the chipper I suspect.




Maybe, but a lot easier than bringing the chipper up the elevator...


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## rbtree (Aug 3, 2006)

Not to derail this thread, but we have few ailanthus in the PNW. Here's a mighty nice specimen, near the Lake Washington Floating Bridge. Just off to its right is an even nicer black walnut. From a distance away, one has to try hard to discern the genuses.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 3, 2006)

moss said:


> The number of climbers who specialize in taking down dead Ailanthus in impossible locations must be countable on one hand. I've heard some good stories, like passing Ailanthus chunks in through an apartment window and on to an elevator to get the tree parts out of a closed alley.



I spent years in Brooklyn NY very similiar to that, lots of fun I can tell you from experience. Had a few that were so brittle to climb we would tie in and rig off the surrounding buildings to get them down. Carried too many logs to count through attached houses out to the street. And since they will grow anywhere, even cut a few down that were 30" DBH inside of abandoned buildings. Now that is fun.


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## coydog (Aug 5, 2006)

It looks like there's a nice lead going out over the yard that you could rig alot of the brush off of thats over the fence and neighbor's property, while you remain tied into the main upright, then bomb the tops and wood into the yard. I've rigged some pretty huge pieces of ailanthus off themselves comfortably as long as the dynamics are right. That tree looks pretty solid, shouldn't be a problem to climb around in if you choose your tie-ins right, It's a lot like poplar, pretty strong and wiry if your'e rigging on a vertical spar, brittle when stressed laterally.You'll need a competent groundman IMO


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## jmack (Aug 5, 2006)

moss said:


> At least it's alive. This a question for the experienced climbers out there. Is it fair to say the Ailanthus wood is similar to Eastern Cottonwood, probably a little less dense? I'm thinking it would be a good idea to always be double-crotched when climbing up high in an Ailanthus.
> 
> I was looking at the sliced up chunks of a 60+ year-old Ailanthus that was cut down in my neighborhood. The heartwood was surprisingly dense for a species with such light wood. This was a healthy tree.
> -moss


the only time you should be in an ailanthus is when your spiked in taking it down


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## (WLL) (Dec 22, 2006)

*use caution*

i always use rope guide and false crotch like a loopie and stay on main stem. they smell like chit and are full of ants


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