# decending on split tail system



## jaystihl (Jan 17, 2015)

I have been doing spur removals for years but just recently incorporated a climb line (split tail system) for added safety. In the past I have only used two separate lanyards for tie points. I like the versatility of the climb line being that it is easier to move about in the canopy and for limb walking. My question is when I need to move away from my tie in point, is it safe to put your hands above the friction hitch and pull towards you when moving away(i.e. limb walking). I have read that it isn't when all of your weight is on the climb line( descending). Are some hitches better than others for this application? Again I am on spurs , so 95% of the time I am blocking down a single spar once I have pieced out the canopy, but if I need to get out of dodge for any reason do you have to have an eight to decend?


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## Griff93 (Jan 17, 2015)

Which hitch are you using? I like a blakes personally. Some prefer a tautline. I don't usually carry an 8 with me. I descend to the ground with a blakes every time I'm not using a hitch climber (VT). Some people put the split tail and and their rope on the same carabiner. I like having them on separate biners so I can just take my rope off one side leaving the blakes tied and throw it around stuff. I don't know how you would be able limb walk without pulling your hitch down the rope as you walk out. Maybe I'm not understanding your question completely. Be careful descending to quickly on a blakes hitch as it puts a lot of the friction on one section of the hitch and has the potential to glaze/melt the rope. Inspect it frequently especially at first to make sure you don't have an issue.


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## Del_ (Jan 17, 2015)

To take some weight off of any hitch when descending, especially a long descent, take a foot lock of the rope then one hand on the hitch and one below or above the hitch, preferably gloved.


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## jaystihl (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks for the response guys. Griff you understood me, I just read in climbers companion that your not supposed to put your hands above the hitch because it can disable it and end up in a rapid decent. but there is no other way to advance away from tie in point.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 17, 2015)

I think it depends on your hitch, how you have it set and dressed, the condition/age of your rope/split tail, whether it's wet or not etc on how grabby it gets. I've had some hitches under the right conditions that require 2 hands pulling on the knot to get it to loosen. Others will slide if you look at them funny. 

When you're limb walking you need to keep your hand near your hitch to loosen it off as you advance out the limb. I think the warning is primarily if you are footlocking with a prussic cord. Those can loosen off easily if you pull slightly on the knot and send you for a ride.

If you are blocking down a single stem, unless you have something acting as a false crotch (stub, adjustable friction saver) you can't safely bail out on a ddrt system. If you were take a single rope, attach one end to the stem (ie bowline on a bight) in front of you, then you could bail out on an 8. 

Personally I prefer an adjustable friction saver.


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## jaystihl (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks BC. just a quick question, are you saying its not a good idea if I have my climb line choked on the spar( with biner or running bowline) and then split tail to saddle, that I should nt bail out by just adjusting the hitch down in increments or does it just depend on how the system operates ( as far as how easily the hitch will slide). I borrowed an older set(split tail with the working end just going up and over tie in point and back to saddle) and I was able to descend fairly easily, and when I wanted to stop I simply let up on the hitch. just didn't know if it was safe? I recently bought a brand new 1/2" safety blue with a hi vee split tail( which is the same rope , just has color ) and haven't tried it yet , but from what I understand, the tail might have a hard time grabbing being that the tail is the same diameter as climb line. ???


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## treebilly (Jan 17, 2015)

It'll grab fine using the Blake's or taught line. I think it's using an eye and eye tail that recommends a smaller diameter. 
With out a crotch or friction saver there is no safe way to bail out Ddrt.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 17, 2015)

treebilly said:


> It'll grab fine using the Blake's or taught line. I think it's using an eye and eye tail that recommends a smaller diameter.
> With out a crotch or friction saver there is no safe way to bail out Ddrt.



Using ice line or tenex types are supposed to be smaller. I use ice line tied in a distel with a hitch climber pulley to advance it. If I'm in a small tree were I don't need to recrotch alot I use a blakes. I climb on imori and the blakes and taunt line Bite very well with it.

I really like using these new ropes that are closer to a 1/2 inch. It has taken alot of stress off my hands I used poison ivy and other smaller lines for years and man would my hands be all cramped up after a long day of pulling around.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 17, 2015)

You can run down just as fast as anything else on these knots. I have destroyed the tail or eye to eye cords getting away from bees. They were still smoking when I hit the ground and melted.

If you run into trouble you would just be wasting time switching to a rescue 8 or something similar.

You will need aditional hardware to climb on a line you have chocked to the tree with a bowline the knot will get to tight. These knots are meant for double rope technique unless a rope wrench or something else takes some of the weight off the hitch.


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## CanopyGorilla (Jan 18, 2015)

IMO every climber should know how to get out of a tree with one knot, one hitch, and one carabinier. Hint: bowline, munter, caribener. Done.


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## CanopyGorilla (Jan 18, 2015)

Its not the best way, but let's say squirrels steel all your fancy gadgets, a t-rex cuts your line, and Ron Jeremy steels your split tail, its best to know how to still get out.... I have only been doing tree work for 4 years but I have 13 years rigging and rope access experience and I am amazed by the lack of rope work knowledge of some tree guys.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 19, 2015)

jaystihl said:


> Thanks BC. just a quick question, are you saying its not a good idea if I have my climb line choked on the spar( with biner or running bowline) and then split tail to saddle, that I should nt bail out by just adjusting the hitch down in increments or does it just depend on how the system operates ( as far as how easily the hitch will slide). I borrowed an older set(split tail with the working end just going up and over tie in point and back to saddle) and I was able to descend fairly easily, and when I wanted to stop I simply let up on the hitch. just didn't know if it was safe? I recently bought a brand new 1/2" safety blue with a hi vee split tail( which is the same rope , just has color ) and haven't tried it yet , but from what I understand, the tail might have a hard time grabbing being that the tail is the same diameter as climb line. ???



If you choke your line to the tree, you won't be able to descend on your split tail, the hitch will lock up due to the pressure on it. 

In a ddrt system, your hitch only takes 1/2 your weight, (the other half being taken by the other end of the rope). If you try and due srt with your split tail, your entire weight will be on the hitch which will cause it to lock up. That is why the rope wrench or hitch hiker is used on srt, as the rope wrench or dog bone(on the hitch hiker) adds enough friction to the system to allow the hitch to move.

What I was assuming is that you wanted to ddrt, which would require a crotch or false crotch for the rope to run around.


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## TheShanks (Feb 4, 2015)

Guys are using cambium savers for this very reason. I may have heard wrong but pretty soon in the US you are required to carry one or climb with some method of bailout when climbing a spar. Guys set it up along with their flip line(s) and have their climbing rope already running through the pully or caribiner like a crotch and then use their normal decending knot.


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## jaystihl (Feb 5, 2015)

Great points , bc and mattfr, . Yes I was talking about ddrt. So I now know I can safely bail out with split tail( blakes is what I have been using?) on ddrt. But on a spar that hitch will get to tight. Being that it is not double loaded. Mattfr said I would need additional hardware to bail on single spar but its would take to much time rig an eight if I was in trouble, which I agree. Can anyone tell me the best peice ( hardware) to use, that I could already have rigged and ready? Thats good for just decending, or for a speedy bailout.


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## treebilly (Feb 5, 2015)

I haven't purchased one quite yet ( I will as soon as my hours are back to normal) but I've read quite a bit of good reviews on the hitch hiker. Can be used srt or drt and is simple to switch back and forth. I'm sure that there is a thread on it somewhere on this site


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## jomoco (Feb 5, 2015)

CanopyGorilla said:


> IMO every climber should know how to get out of a tree with one knot, one hitch, and one carabinier. Hint: bowline, munter, caribener. Done.



You forgot ability to get out of a tree, or down a spar, with just one hand or arm?

I know that shattered clavs disable the entire arm function on whichever side gets it?

So the old school three fingered taughtline hitch's about the only descending knot I know of that can be tied in a jiffy with one hand only.

Good thread subject for 101, no doubt!

jomoco


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 5, 2015)

jaystihl said:


> Great points , bc and mattfr, . Yes I was talking about ddrt. So I now know I can safely bail out with split tail( blakes is what I have been using?) on ddrt. But on a spar that hitch will get to tight. Being that it is not double loaded. Mattfr said I would need additional hardware to bail on single spar but its would take to much time rig an eight if I was in trouble, which I agree. Can anyone tell me the best peice ( hardware) to use, that I could already have rigged and ready? Thats good for just decending, or for a speedy bailout.



You would want the adjustable friction saver. It'll set up as a false crotch and easily move up and down the spar with you.

http://www.wesspur.com/friction-savers/friction-saver.html Go half way down the page to the adjustable friction saver.


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## jaystihl (Feb 6, 2015)

Great , thanks BC


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

CanopyGorilla said:


> IMO every climber should know how to get out of a tree with one knot, one hitch, and one carabinier. Hint: bowline, munter, caribener. Done.


Dicey. Why not a choked bowline, (long tail. 6-8' so it can be retrieved when you've spiked down to your next work postion) with a soft locked 8? They're like 10$ at treestuff. Even tie your split tail ABOVE your eight for a redundant failsafe if you go squirrely on your 8?


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

This, of course, is NOT meant for ascent. Stick with your ddrt for ascent, and working the tree. 
Now, you're down to a spar. At this point you can incorporate my above post. 

A soft locked eight will take the whole weight off your spurs, and its extremely easy to unlock and bail in an emergency situation. Its retrieveable, and you can do it with your climbing line you have, rather than dragging around a fimbl saver and having it **** whipping into your face during retreival. 

If you choose to add your split tail into the system above your eight for added security, descend with hitch as regular while tailing slack through your eight.

The eight will add enough friction to the rope entering your hitch, so that the Blake's won't bind up. Which allows you to use your hitch on a single leg of line. With minimal gear. 

Pm me if you have questions. Stay safe homer! Keep striving to know more! You're the man!


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## CanopyGorilla (Feb 24, 2015)

My post was ment as a last option bail. When everything else fails. Can you get out of a tree with one carabineer and one rope? From 150' up?


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## CanopyGorilla (Feb 24, 2015)

I can. I have been doing rope work for much longer than tree work. My job used to be pulling injured people off of the largest cliffs in the continental u.s. (think el cap/ half dome).


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## CanopyGorilla (Feb 24, 2015)

I would be shocked (also willing to listen) if you felt you had a better understanding of working rope systems than I do.


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

CanopyGorilla said:


> I would be shocked (also willing to listen) if you felt you had a better understanding of working rope systems than I do.



I would never claim that. And there was no argument about the munters hitch. That would work, no doubt. But i think an 8 lends itself to a friendlier bend ratio. And if the 8/long tailed bowline was already incorporated in your spar descent plan.. Would it not be faster to unlock (soft) an 8 and repel? I meant NO disrespect. I have an obessesion w/ rope, and please correct me if im wrong.


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

CanopyGorilla said:


> My post was ment as a last option bail. When everything else fails. Can you get out of a tree with one carabineer and one rope? From 150' up?


If i had about 160' of rope or so. Depending on diameter, i guess. Running bowline, munter hitch, carabiner?

Or are we talking about tying a b.o.b rope saddle, too? In that case id need way more rope.

(im not just some know nothing dink, and i didnt mean to offend you. Just trying to help some one to start thinking about spar descent/bail out practices)


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## CanopyGorilla (Feb 24, 2015)

A figure 8 is one of the friendliest bend ratios you can find. I have been working with that knot for 13 years and have no idea how you would propose to decend on one. It is a tie in point knot. Perhaps I don't quite grasp what you are explaining. My scenario was this; you have no gear, (say you dropped it all) and you have one caribener, you choke the spar and descend on a munter on that one caribener. You would be utilizing every inch of rope available. It would not be doubled. I must be hearing you wrong.,.


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## CanopyGorilla (Feb 24, 2015)

Good discussion by the way!


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## CanopyGorilla (Feb 24, 2015)

Is it a figure 8 knot or a "figure of 8" repel device your talking about?


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

CanopyGorilla said:


> A figure 8 is one of the friendliest bend ratios you can find. I have been working with that knot for 13 years and have no idea how you would propose to decend on one. It is a tie in point knot. Perhaps I don't quite grasp what you are explaining. My scenario was this; you have no gear, (say you dropped it all) and you have one caribener, you choke the spar and descend on a munter on that one caribener. You would be utilizing every inch of rope available. It would not be doubled. I must be hearing you wrong.,.


 okay. I think i found the root of the issue. Im proposing using an aluminum/steel figure 8 descender. 

A choked running bowline w/ 8' tail. A single leg of line run through a figure 8 descender, soft locked, attached to saddle via carabiner. You can descend say 6' to your next work area, pull tail of bowline to retrieve. Re-choke waist level, remove slack. Yea?

And i agree with you. If you had nothing but a carabiner, saddle and rope, a munters hitch is a perfect descent method. I said 160' of rope I. Response to the TIP being 150' taking the running bowline and munters into consideration, and giving myself lots of room for error.

Bowline on a bight saddle.. The only way i can figure that with one biner @ 150' is with 300' of rope. More when you take the saddle/blakes into consideration. 
I could be wrong! Sorry if i came off as combative


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## acer-kid (Feb 24, 2015)

Another rope nut. I love it.


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## miko0618 (Feb 25, 2015)

I run a grigri 2 or a d4 instead of a figure 8. One hand everything and auto-locking. A soft locked 8 can be tough to lock/unlock with 1 hand. And, unless it's backed by a prussic, one slip and you can be in real trouble. I always carry an 8 on my saddle though. Always.


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## acer-kid (Feb 25, 2015)

miko0618 said:


> I run a grigri 2 or a d4 instead of a figure 8. One hand everything and auto-locking. A soft locked 8 can be tough to lock/unlock with 1 hand. And, unless it's backed by a prussic, one slip and you can be in real trouble. I always carry an 8 on my saddle though. Always.


Can a gri gri take a fall? I was under the impression the were strictly a belay device? Im unsure of that, though. Good point on loading an eight too heavy, and being hard to unlock. A definite drawback to my system, without doubt.


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## miko0618 (Feb 25, 2015)

acer-kid said:


> Can a gri gri take a fall? I was under the impression the were strictly a belay device? Im unsure of that, though. Good point on loading an eight too heavy, and being hard to unlock. A definite drawback to my system, without doubt.


I've seen cammed ascenders tested. The unit doesn't slip or fail but, it can tear the sheath on kernmantle rope. Effectively making grip impossible and riding the sheath down the core. That was a toothed ascender on a serious fall. For tree work anyway. I am not sure on the grigri


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## acer-kid (Feb 25, 2015)

miko0618 said:


> I've seen cammed ascenders tested. The unit doesn't slip or fail but, it can tear the sheath on kernmantle rope. Effectively making grip impossible and riding the sheath down the core. That was a toothed ascender on a serious fall. For tree work anyway. I am not sure on the grigri


I would assume slipping some would be beneficial, no? So you would end up dragging the whole cover down and exposing core? If that's the case would it be considered dicey on a 16 stand construction?


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## miko0618 (Feb 25, 2015)

I don't know of any 16 strand ropes that are a proper diameter for a grigri. They will handle a fall within ansi standards.


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## miko0618 (Feb 25, 2015)

Yes, if it tears the sheath, you're going down. Unless you luck out. I feel like the grigri or D4 would do less damage in a fall situation. But i can't back that up.


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## acer-kid (Feb 25, 2015)

miko0618 said:


> Yes, if it tears the sheath, you're going down. Unless you luck out. I feel like the grigri or D4 would do less damage in a fall situation. But i can't back that up.


too high a diameter i assume? Ive no experience with gri gris, so im just speculating.

Edit: natgear makes a 7/16 16 strand. I think thats about 11.5?


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