# Which is preferred knot: Distel or Schwabisch



## NebClimber (Jun 28, 2004)

Which knot is preferred for use as the friction knot of a dymanic climbing system: Distel or Schwabisch?

Why?

What length of cord is recommended (length from eye to eye)?

Steven


----------



## rumination (Jun 28, 2004)

I used to use a distel until a couple of months ago when I switched over to the VT. I preferred it over the swabisch because the biner hangs straight against the climbing line, like a VT, instead of being cranked a little to one side like the swabisch does. I also felt that the distel collapsed a little better than the swabisch making it easier to slack tend. If I recall correctly my cord was 23" from eye to eye for a 4/1 distel, but my memory may be faulty on that one. The length is something you will want to play with a little bit, especially considering that a different amount of wraps may be better for you, depending on your body size, rope type, use of false crotches, etc.

Of course, the VT is superior to both of them, but the distel made a great stepping stone for me, from a blakes to a VT. I am currently using a swabisch on my lanyard, tied directly to the side D, and it seems to be perfect for this application.

In the end it is a matter of personal preference. They are both excellent hitches.


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 28, 2004)

If I had to choose between the two, I would go with the Distel.

The Schwabisch is fine if your walking around on limbs and tie in with a lanyard to make your cuts. But as soon as you actually put your weight on it, like for decsending, it acts just like any other prussik, grabs to much, then you have loosen up the coils and bridge for it to work smooth. VT is a much better knot.

Larry


----------



## NebClimber (Jun 28, 2004)

I don't really see the point in "progressing" thru a series of knots, e.g, from taughtline to Blake's hitch to Schwabisch to Distel. So I think I'll just skip the progressions jump to the VT - if someone would be so kind as to show me how to tie it (I'd find out for myself, but I don't recall what "VT" stands for, so I can't run a google search).

Thanks,

Steven


----------



## NebClimber (Jun 28, 2004)

Thanks Rocky.


----------



## matthias (Jun 28, 2004)

On Rocky's picture what is the name of the knot that makes the eyes?


----------



## OutOnaLimb (Jun 28, 2004)

You guys are crazy. The VT, and distal have way to much slop when you are using a minder pulley.!! Tie in with a 14 inch Schwabish and there is almost zero slop. I beg to differ, the Schwabish isone the smoothest descent knot comming down, you only have 4 wraps, plus you can swing out and grab a branch, tie in, work out and then work your way back in using a micro pulley. When your balences way out there, 8 inches is quite a lot of play. Give me a tight Schwabish next to my hip any day. 

Kenn :Monkey:


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Jun 28, 2004)

Call me a curious person of the new. I started on the Blake, went to the Schwabisch/Distel and finally the VT. The VT is tunable, meaning its length combined with the number of wraps and braids makes the VT friction adjustable. Depending on the climbers weight, condition and type of climbing rope this is a cool hitch. I use the VT on my lanyard as well.

Another perk is that tress cords can be made for a couple of dollars using 8mm Sta-Set.


----------



## rumination (Jun 28, 2004)

Rocky,
I believe that was your old thread that I learned all that from.  I am still grateful that you documented your struggle, switching from the tautline/blakes to the distel and finally to the vt. It made it so easy for me. I already had a really good idea of where to start when I made the switch. I am currently using a 3/3 vt in 8mm sta-set, with Rocky's patented switched over braids to avoid hockling while descending. I am very happy with it. However, I may have to bust out one of my old shorter distel cords and try that 4/1, or that 3/2. The best part of this hitch is that its fun to play with.


----------



## OutOnaLimb (Jun 28, 2004)

But you cant order a VT cord straight from Sherrill with your weight and climgbing technique labeled on it can you? Using a VT you must modify the lengh of the cord to your precise weight. And still you get so much slop, Does any one splice custom VT cords out there????

Kenn


----------



## murphy4trees (Jun 28, 2004)

*KNOT POLICE*

OK mr. squirrel, put down that tress cord and step away from the tree...

 

Actually a double fisherman's is used to tie a slip of on each end of a cord, going around the other end to make a loop....

The knots shown are just plain old fisherman's. They are pretty basic slip knots and quite relaible for tying to a biner....

And I actually did come over here from Treebz originally... And I've heard a certain ITCC champ call that knot a double fishermans, so it's going around...

And then again I could be wrong!


----------



## rumination (Jun 28, 2004)

In _On Rope_ the knot is called a double overhand, a grapevine, AND...a double fishermans! If it's in _On Rope_ it's good enough for me.


----------



## murphy4trees (Jun 28, 2004)

What about Ashley?

PS... told you I could be wrong...


----------



## murphy4trees (Jun 28, 2004)

On ROpe pg 51...
Double overhand bend aka double fisherman's bend shows not the knot in Rock's diagram, but the knot I described abpve, used for tying two ends line together. 
ON Rope goes on to say it is a good bend to form an endless loop of rope... particularly when forming prussic slings.. Half of this bend, used as a safety or keeper knot during rescue work, is commonly referred to as a barrell knot or half a double fisherman's knot...


Now why would they call it that? Half a double fisherman's knot... That seems like a few unnecessary sylables there...


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Jun 28, 2004)

I hope that Rocky can take a breath for a second here and go along for a bit.

Names for knots are like common plant names. Since there isn't a clearing house or registration, names for knots get a little casual. 

What arbos call a double fisherman's knot/hitch might go by other names in other rope disciplines. After looking at many knot books and many knot/rope disciplines, it seems [to me] that the most common use for the double fisherman's knot/hitch refers to the part of the rope configuration that makes "crossing round turns with a tuck". When it's used as a termination for a friction hitch it could be more properly be titled a sliding double fisherman's knot/hitch. 

Budworth has been raked over the coals for repeating wrong names in many of his books. He's also been accused of repeating wrong information from other books in his books. Just because it's written doesn't make it universally "right". 

Since we argue about seal/heal, head/top, false crotch/Friction Saver, it makes perfect sense that we butt heads about knot nomenclature too.

If you want to hear knot geeks Rocky, you should follow the International Guild of Knot Tyers. That organization is as close to a ruling body for knot nomenclature. If all arbos chose to abide by their decision for naming this rope configuration, then we wouldn't have to put up with the arbo geeks of the world. 

In the end, it gets down to tomato or tomato, potato or potatoe [for the Quayle folks].

Tom


----------



## NebClimber (Jun 29, 2004)

Rocky:

Do you tie the VT as shown on the left side of the diagram you posted, or do you tie it as shown on the right hand side?

Steven


----------



## John Stewart (Jun 29, 2004)

Used both but prefer the Knut!
John


----------



## Stumper (Jun 29, 2004)

Between Distel and Swabisch I prefer The Distel. And I prefer the name Scaffold knot for 1/2 a dble fisherman's tied on its on standing line to form a loop.I didn't come from the buzz to argue it Brian. Yes,I always know what you mean when you say Dble fisherman's but the standard knot of that name is different so we need different nomenclature. A buntline hitch is a clove hitch tied to the standing line to form a cinched loop-that explains it real well but it isn't proper to call a buntline a clove-that just confuses the poor guy who is trying to figure out what you mean and is flipping through a knot book.:angel:


----------



## rumination (Jun 29, 2004)

Err...after taking another look at On Rope it looks like I remembered wrong...oops!:blush:


----------



## Stumper (Jun 29, 2004)

Hey Leon-the longer you live the more often that happens.


----------



## Nathan Wreyford (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OutOnaLimb _
> *The VT, and distal have way to much slop when you are using a minder pulley.!! *



That should be your first sign you are doing it wrong.


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *
> i think that Guy is coming to some realizations and trying to share them and bring others along, not shirking work. One of the better threads i always thought was the epiphany where Brian (aliias Rocky, alias TreeClimber165, alias...)goes to Split-Tails/cords etc. The moment of change is always different, and cataloging that for others to read as they look at, and enter the same gauntlet of learning curve, can show you made it, issues you tumbled with. Rather than, "i jumped across, why not you?" as a constant message.
> :alien: *










i try to keep track of who i steal pix/ideas from, didn't put person's name on this, but i beleive that i got it from my fellow geeks at TB. The WWW button under Tom's posts is a way to jump there quickly; it will not take you to the World Wide Wrestling as rumored!

i like looking at knots in families of construction, and thereby properties. By any other name, i tie the eye as an anchor to host line itself with tail heading the direction of the line pull, so as to be more secure. An anchor hitch is absolute simplicity and power in strategy; the old worlde depended on it not to lose anchor and drift massive ships of 500 people to their deaths in open sea, in a time before electrcity was harnessed. So, they chose this RoundTurn (always a secure base)sitting on it's own tail to secure. Making the same to self is even more secure i think, strength of fisherman's/barrel would be dictated by the diameter of the mount as the first loaded arc of the line i think.

The Schwab, Distel, VT, Knut etc. (even Blake's, only pulled at one end though) are all similar constructions around a short Frenchy Prusik Coil of 4 (Double RoundTurn), with different finishes.

The Schwab places a reversed half hitch on bottom of stack from top (as to form a 4/1 cow hitch). The Distel, places a half hitch from top to bottom of stack in the same direction as the coils over it (like a 4/1 clove). A VT uses its braids to bend the line previously to feeding the buffered force into the coils. A Knut, continues the coils in the same direction as a Distel, but traps the leg coming of bottom of Frenchy coil; it's half hitch to place under the stack, from the top leg of the stack. The Knut is relatively self tending!

In all cases the Short Frenchy Stack has a buffering strategy of bufferign load force before it; as to keep the hitch in a tamer/more courteus range of proeperties(?) It's 'Power Band' for these functions, i think. Whereby, with less dampening of the force to the frenchy stack it would sieze to the line dysfunctionaly to our purpose. the Blake's sitting on it's own tail, i think imitates double end pulled frenchy, and doesn't let bottom ring seat(?) so carries similar design(?).

i kinda like a VT with a Knut tending ring strategy at base.


----------



## Al Smith (Jun 29, 2004)

*Distel knot*

This is purely an observation from an old sailor/rigger/high iron climber.This distel knot,appears to me to be a variation of the classic"triple slidding hitch" often called the prussic knot,and sometimes a double fishermans bend.It differs in the fact that it appears to have 4 up and one down,versus 3 up,3 down in the triple slider,and would appear to be a lot handier.I instructed"marlinspike seamanship" while in the Navy,and rigging and climbing techniques[open steel]for apprenticeship classes,later in life.This is the first I have seen such a knot,thanks for the picture and info. Al


----------



## knudeNoggin (Jun 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *A double fisherman's. But of course some geek from TB will most likely insist that name is incorrect for whatever reason (as they have in the past), but I don't F'ing care. It's a double fisherman's. It is called a double fisherman's in Jeff Jepson's book Tree Climber's Companion, and also in Sherrill's catalog and on the 'knot t-shirt'. *



Well, it's hard to resist this sort of *invitation* to the discussion!
A "Dbl.Fisherman's (knot)" is a rope-to-rope joining knot,
a more secure (and stronger) variant to the (single) Fisherman's Knot.
Why add to the confusion to lazily apply this name to a hitch?
(Do Sherrill & Jepson acknowledge the rope-2-rope knot, perhaps as the "Grapevine"?
That's a well-used name in climbing, caving, & SAR.)

As Tom D. writes, "Just because it's written doesn't make it universally "right".
Indeed, so sorry is the state of knotting literatures that
one might suggest the opposite: it makes it WRONG!
(An egregious problem is that images are plagiarized (errors & all, sometimes w/new ones)
--absolutely amazes me how this continues, but ...)

To Rumination's assertion that _On Rope_ calls THIS hitch a "Grapevine, ...",
I say, LOOK at the knot--they call the BEND that, not the hitch (unless Bruce radically changed
things for the 2nd edition). C'mon, let's
not be blind!

Nor are "the knots shown are just plain old fisherman's", which is either a bend
(joining ropes), and (you'll luv it  called
"knot", or a hitch, called (yep) "bend" (aka "Anchor
Bend").
What about Ashley? He has the exact knot as #409, Poacher's Knot;
he has the more secure (add one more wrap) form as #1120, Scaffold Knot,

I think that "Strangle Hitch" works best, here (the Strangle being
this particular form of a Dbl.Overhand, with two free ends--a binder).

I think I've seen "Barrel Knot" (in the Lyon report), but that too
suffers from conflict with prior use (for both the
Grapevine, and the Blood Knot).

.:. It's a HITCH, and Strangle Hitch has no competitors (albeit no direct precedent
--but we can see that precedent can be a mess!)

--knudenoggin


----------



## rumination (Jun 30, 2004)

Hey man, I already admitted that I was wrong. Quit beatin on me!


----------



## NickfromWI (Jun 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OutOnaLimb _
> *Does any one splice custom VT cords out there????*



Of course!


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 30, 2004)

A great knot by any name. Based on a great knot the Anchor Hitch i believe. i like the Anchor to self, but should have a proper name for this great knotting strategy. It can only be a bend if it 'bends' 2 or more lines together i think.

i must admit locally and on board in times of confusion, double fisherman's (i like tripple rings, especially at the cost of about no space, length in small diameter chords) was always most popular. Previous to getting Ashley Book of Knots at Walmart.Com for $46 instead of $75  my lead home knot referance has been Cyrus Day's great "The Art of Knotting and Splicing"; in it the alternate name for an Anchor Bend is a Fisherman's Bend.

But, Tom said it was a Barrel, so i had to stop and think on that. Then in one of the best freebies, especially for climbing specialties i've seen Life on a Line by Dave Merchant  a full size book for free download (that in fact Tom had posted years before) that i've learned to respect as some collective authority and a very fine gift and effort from the author. It says Barrel, lending more credence to what was said. i've learned a lot from TB and gotten links like that one, that are about pure gold! Jest cuz ye consider ourselves HighLanders on the rope, doesn't mean we have to be shouting "There can be only One"! Why Not "There can be only Fun" and fly with all you can gather? Just the fact that there is confusion, we all know it now, and might consider that if talking to other people etc.

i'll go along with whatever is decided on the names; i might seem to call out a lot myself, but i'll go with whatever handle you put on it to be set aside and recognized. Y'all should look at that book (and TB excuse me, a party's not getting geared up is not always the host's fault), especially the first sectional download of the 3; it is very clearly put info; a look into another rope world, that we've all ready learned much from (mountain/rescue).


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Jul 1, 2004)

This is another free referance book link that was posted on 'the other board' 2 years ago... Industrial Rope Access DownLoad ; with same referance to barrel.

Thought i remebered another one! Really both 'books' are great ; and the price is right enuff fer me!

Edit: Picture changed to prevent confusion; this shows the differance between fisherman's barrel for hitching to carabiner etc. and double fisheman's .

Notice how these knots are calculated not to just statically take a shock, but give dynamic adjustment, on dynamic loading!!! The slight movement, relieving the pressure(?)

Samson Rope's Download Page


----------



## OutOnaLimb (Jul 1, 2004)

Hey Spider, I have only seen that knot used mid-line, but It looks pretty cool end of line. Im gonna have to break out my 6ft piece of rope and play with that. The only thing I hate about the butterfly is that its a b1tch to untie if you put a lot of pressure on it


Kenn


----------

