# Milling in the woodlot



## HandLogger (Sep 27, 2007)

Howdy!

I've spent several years on another forum, so I'm pretty excited to discover this one for the first time. :jester: 

Where to begin ... well, I'd like to hear from folks who've discovered alternatives to milling timber with all those *expensive* mills out there. Although I've certainly got quite a bit of my own timber to consider, I do not see myself becoming a professional sawyer. 

I am, however, planning to mill the beams and dimensional lumber required for a timber frame home. Although the hard plans have not been drawn yet, I've got enough experience to surmise that the maximum dimensions of any timbers in the frame will be around 8" x 10" x 22.' I do realize that milling timber is a difficult proposition, and that hydraulics are a fantastic feature to this end, but I'm not in a position where my material has to be milled yesterday. That being written, I'd like to hear from some members who've freed straight beams and lumber out logs without investing their life's savings into it. 

By the way, the frame design will more than likely incorporate splined joinery, so most of the large beams will come from softwood saw logs: EWP and Eastern Hemlock.

Any thoughts (and any photos) welcome ...


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## camojeep (Sep 27, 2007)

welcome to as lots of good info here


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## MJR (Sep 27, 2007)

Welcome neighbor, a while back there was a post here by BMAN. He made a beautiful post and beam house. Do a search for post and beam and I am sure you will find it. It might give you some ideas. I can’t give much advice on mills. I started out with a CSM, now have a small band mill, and have evil thoughts of going bigger…. Best of luck.


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## irishcountry (Sep 27, 2007)

*cool*

Timberframe or post and beam homes IMHO are some of the most beautiful homes that are built!! Good luck with your projects would love to see pics! Someday I would like to do the same but I still have to get setup with a chainsaw mill i've not had much freetime since spring and now going to start a late season remodeling of our second floor so maybe next year. This is a great place to just keep checking posts and collecting info there are many creative knowlegable people on this forum and most check frequently and can answer question quickly or at least point you in the right direction. Again good luck.


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## MJR (Sep 27, 2007)

Mistake, I got side tracked at work. The tread should be under timber frame house. OPPS.


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## woodshop (Sep 27, 2007)

Welcome to the forum handlogger, I did get your IM and would love to discuss milling options. Just know that there are more options out there now than ever... Logosol type mills that use bar and chain... all sizes of bandmills including my little chainsaw powered Ripsaw, and of course swing mills. What is right for one won't fit anothers circumstances, so you need to define exactly what you want this mill to do, and just how portable it has to be. You already started to do that, good start. 

...ask lots of questions


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## Ianab (Sep 27, 2007)

Swingblade mills   

The cost is considerably less then a hydralic bandmill, true the mill is all manual, but you dont need to move the log at all. Removing the boards and beams is the only hard work.

Portablilty is good, if you can get a quadbike and trailer to the logs then you can get the mill there.

Yes a chainsaw mill could do what you want, would be the cheapest option of course, but it depends how hard you want to work and how many beams you want to cut. 

As well as the beams there is probably lots of dimension lumber to recover while you are slicing out the beam. Thats what the swingblades are good at.

Different mills have different strong points. Chainsaw mills are cheaper and very portable, but slower, harder work and lower recovery. Swingmills are medium cost, fast sawing and pretty portable. They do best on big logs, you can cut small ones of course, but so can any bandsaw. Bandsaws work better on what we call small logs, under 30". Trailer mounted is pretty portable, but they are still a big machine so you need good access to move them to a site. Not as practical to saw logs where they lay in the woods.

You also need to work out how you are going to operate, what machinery you will need if you want to move logs etc.

Cheers

Ian


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## HandLogger (Sep 27, 2007)

*Cheers!*

Thanks very much for the posts so far! 

Camo: Thanks for the welcome. I'm looking forward to it.

MJR: Thanks for turning me on to the BMAN info. I'll look into it as soon as I can.

Irish: We've been working on getting started since the beginning of the year. It's very slow goin,' but we're getting closer every day. Pictures forthcoming.

Woodshop: As I've already explained, you're the guy that brought me to this forum in the first place. Looking forward to corresponding with you more.

Ian: I've read some of your posts before (on another venue)... Another useful post -- as always, mate!

*PLEASE* keep 'em coming. Cheers!


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 28, 2007)

For cutting beams, the Logosol M7 is a pretty good solution. Their demo DVD shows a guy who built a dutch barn with an M5 (M7 predecessor). I believe there are some on this forum who are building or have built timberframe houses and cut the beams on an M7.

I have the TimberJig and Woodworkers Mill with Husky 385XP and have been happy with them - both to make rough cut boards for my own use.

Regards,

Ted


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## cantcutter (Sep 28, 2007)

How much does a swingblade cost in other parts of the world? Here in the USA you can buy a really nice hydraulic band mill for less than a lucas or a Peterson. The swing blades are nice mills and have their upsides, but they would not make a good mill for timberframe. I would vote for a mobile demensions 128 for the best mill for sawing timbers. But cost puts it out of reach of the do it your self crowd. Jonsered has a nice little chainsaw mill that would save the back and get the job done.


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## Ianab (Sep 29, 2007)

An 8" cut Peterson will start around $15,000 , depends on what options you get with it of course. Thats in NZ$, I think it will be similar in $US, the exchange rate gain pays for the freight. You can spend $30,000+ on a swingblade, but that gets you a fully auto beast of a machine. 

A Woodmizer lt40SuperHD is about $30,000 US, probably cost about $60,000 in NZ :help: Of course it's easier for you guys to pick up decent secondhand bandmills so that might be an option too.

Swingblade pretty much works the same as a MD mill, except its easier to cut oversize beams on the swingblade. I can saw out a 16"x8" on my mill by 'double cutting'.

Main reason I suggest the swingblade is the original poster is thinking of sawing the logs in the woods instead of skidding them out. Thats what swingblades are designed for 

Cheers

Ian


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## cantcutter (Sep 29, 2007)

Yes but he still has to move the beams out of the woods and to the house site and it is better to do that in log form than screw up a milled beam in transit. MB can cut a 12x8 in one pass. I priced some swing blade mills before I bought my band mill. The 6 inch model is too limited in what it can cut imo and its the only one that can be touched for 8000.00 US. If you want the slabber your talking another 6000.00. All of the bandmill brands have new mills in the 4000.00 to 10.000 range.


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## HandLogger (Sep 29, 2007)

*Great points!*

Ted: I've definitely considered the Logo, but I'm concerned about its ability to handle heavy species. Although the majority of our beams will come from EWP and Eastern Hemlock, we will also be milling some Red Oak beams (for outside posts mostly). I'd hate to spend our hard-earned on *any* type of mill, and find out that you're limited as to which logs you can cut.

Cant and Ian: Interesting discussion you've got going. Love hearing different points of view from those that obviously have the experience and the know how. 

Please keep it coming ...


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## Matildasmate (Sep 29, 2007)

*Logosol*



HandLogger said:


> Ted: I've definitely considered the Logo, but I'm concerned about its ability to handle heavy species. Although the majority of our beams will come from EWP and Eastern Hemlock, we will also be milling some Red Oak beams (for outside posts mostly). I'd hate to spend our hard-earned on *any* type of mill, and find out that you're limited as to which logs you can cut.
> 
> Cant and Ian: Interesting discussion you've got going. Love hearing different points of view from those that obviously have the experience and the know how.
> 
> Please keep it coming ...



Guday mate ....... I Built myself a Logasol type sawmill , mainly out of used steel I had laying around in my shed . Sadly , after watching the Logosol dvd about 30 or more times and every now and then still watching it , I was less than impressed with their dvd , mainly because of the stuff they leave out , for obvious reasons . For starters they only use more or less straight logs in the demo , for all logs and especially bent logs I use a ladder with ply screwed to the ladder for support , also without support when slab gets thin stars to bow without support , which they don't show either. Mine is built like a tank but still only weighs about 150-200kgs (if I need to move it I just use my Ute crane), it also has a backing board of sheet ply to stop knobs or lumps blocking the saw path as the saw passes , my set up can handle 800mm logs currently (need to get a longer bar and build a new support for it) , another thing they don't show you is , how much the bar bends , once you go over 24" it has to be supported , unless you like banana boards . There is lots of other little things too . Backing board is also great for support when using centre support for edging timber. Regards MM


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## cantcutter (Sep 29, 2007)

HandLogger said:


> Cant and Ian: Interesting discussion you've got going. Love hearing different points of view from those that obviously have the experience and the know how.



I don't have the experience, but thanks for the vote of confidence I have owned my timberking 1600 for one week as of today I did do alot of research before I bought a mill and really wanted a Mobile demensions, but could not afford it and I got a really good deal on my bandmill. I think the swingblades are an awsome mill, but not really practical. Its a great concept if you want to saw 2x6s, or 8s if you buy the 8" model, but I don't like that you have to double cut in order to get anything larger out of them. You should look at the mill jonsered has on their site. its much like the one in the above pics only you don't build it yourself. There are other simular chainsaw mills out there and I think any of them would be a great place to start....With most of them you are not limited by lenght like you are with bandmills.... I think if you want to mill at the landing sight of the tree they are really your only option.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Sep 29, 2007)

Man, what a bummer! Ya send off to get thier DVD, copy the design, cut them out and then all this talk. 
Oh, and looking at all the sawdust around the mill, I'd say it must work pretty good. And did ya know, Logosol doesn't sell a bar over 24". Ya think maybe you might have hit on the reason why? And do you really think that nobody else "leaves out" stuff on thier DVD's.
Maybe you should just sue the clowns.

Rodney


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 29, 2007)

HandLogger said:


> Ted: I've definitely considered the Logo, but I'm concerned about its ability to handle heavy species. Although the majority of our beams will come from EWP and Eastern Hemlock, we will also be milling some Red Oak beams (for outside posts mostly). I'd hate to spend our hard-earned on *any* type of mill, and find out that you're limited as to which logs you can cut.
> 
> Please keep it coming ...



The Logosol M7 and Woodworkers Mill can both cut logs that are too heavy to put on the mill. You can cut large logs into smaller more manageable slabs by either milling inverted (mill upside down on top of the log), or with the mill on its side (chainsaw bar would be vertical).

I think the cost and ease of use make it a good choice. I looked at the Jonsered mill as well. It was too expensive for what it did, particularly when compared to the ProCut mill which you can build yourself (http://www.procutportablesawmills.com/).

Yes the bar is unsupported on the tip end. This only makes a difference on bars over 24". Methods of support can be devised and built. I don't see this as a design flaw. The beauty of the design is two fold:

1. No pushing the saw through the log
2. Easy log levelling using the cranks

Regards,

Ted


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## Matildasmate (Sep 29, 2007)

*ProCut*



TedChristiansen said:


> The Logosol M7 and Woodworkers Mill can both cut logs that are too heavy to put on the mill. You can cut large logs into smaller more manageable slabs by either milling inverted (mill upside down on top of the log), or with the mill on its side (chainsaw bar would be vertical).
> 
> I think the cost and ease of use make it a good choice. I looked at the Jonsered mill as well. It was too expensive for what it did, particularly when compared to the ProCut mill which you can build yourself (http://www.procutportablesawmills.com/).
> 
> ...



Hi Mate Had a look at the ProCut setup , pretty good and still no bending over . I think if I was going to go to all the trouble (although this would be fun) of building a chainsawmill that looks like a bandsawmill , I would build a bandsawmill though . I can cut basically any length of log I want on my setup , my mill is only about 3m long , but I have a set of conveyor rollers (I got cheap 2 chains) that I can use to cut any length log . Regards MM As for all the upside downing with the m7 and inverting , I think it would be smarter on the big logs , just to use a csm style , Aggiewoodbutchr , Woodshop , Dustytools , BobL too many others too mention , way to go boys , Have a look at BobL BiL mill .


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## HandLogger (Sep 29, 2007)

*Once again, great points!*

MM: Thanks very much for the extremely helpful information and the great photos. Seems to me, this is what a venue like this one is all about!

Cant: *What are you milling goals? Why did you like the Mobile Dimension Saw so much?* I was actually fortunate enough to spend some time using a Peterson, but the diameter of the blade seems to be a limiting factor -- given what our goals are. Oh, yeah ... and it's not a cheap mill by any means (for the private user, anyway).  

Rodney: I'm assuming that you use the Logosol mill? Have you cut beams in the 8" x 10" x 22' range with it? I'd love to hear more from you if you have. 

Ted: Once again, great post! It seems that the Logosol M7 might warrant some further investigation. I have received information from them in the past, including their video, but the spec's of the mill are what have made me a bit leery. Thanks very much for the info on the Procut plans as well. 

Thanks very much again


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## Matildasmate (Sep 29, 2007)

*Tire bandsawmill the way to go*



HandLogger said:


> MM: Thanks very much for the extremely helpful information and the great photos. Seems to me, this is what a venue like this one is all about!
> 
> Cant: *What are you milling goals? Why did you like the Mobile Dimension Saw so much?* I was actually fortunate enough to spend some time using a Peterson, but the diameter of the blade seems to be a limiting factor -- given what our goals are. Oh, yeah ... and it's not a cheap mill by any means (for the private user, anyway).
> 
> ...



Hi Handlogger If you can afford to and are capable of building a bandsaw mill thats what I would have , especially if you have lots of timber to cut and the time factor is a problem , heaps faster than any csm , but a little more expensive , lot of blokes on this site have built tire bandsawmills , my mill is only a toy for me to play around with .


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## Ianab (Sep 29, 2007)

Its certainly true there is no "one size fits all" sawmill  

This thread has lots of pictures of how I operate with my mill. For me a small bandmill would be next to useless, the logs I get to saw would squash it flat IF I could even load them  I usually saw logs where they fall, in this case we had to move the logs out of the swamp first, but it was all a 12ton excavator could do to move them. Usually I dont have that luxury.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=40707

It's true the swingblade does limit the width of boards you can cut, but with the Peterson the double cutting is simple. Remove a guard and move the carriage to the opposite side of the log. You dont miss the guard because the log is now between you and the blade. 

Now if you want REALLY big boards , saw 2/3 of the log, flip it over and saw the other side.








Cheers

Ian


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## Matildasmate (Sep 29, 2007)

*No one size fits all*



Ianab said:


> Its certainly true there is no "one size fits all" sawmill
> 
> This thread has lots of pictures of how I operate with my mill. For me a small bandmill would be next to useless, the logs I get to saw would squash it flat IF I could even load them  I usually saw logs where they fall, in this case we had to move the logs out of the swamp first, but it was all a 12ton excavator could do to move them. Usually I dont have that luxury.
> 
> ...



Hi Ian ....... Nice slab mate , Absolutely right mate , no one size fits all . Cheers MM


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## woodshop (Sep 29, 2007)

HandLogger said:


> ...I am, however, planning to mill the beams and dimensional lumber required for a timber frame home. Although the hard plans have not been drawn yet, I've got enough experience to surmise that the maximum dimensions of any timbers in the frame will be around 8" x 10" x 22.'


I know I will ruffle some feathers saying this, but just keep in mind that any kind of chainsaw mill, including the Logosols, are just not designed to mill lots of lumber quickly. They are just too slow for that. Same with the chainsaw powered Ripsaw bandmill. No speed demon itself and a fair amount of setup before you mill board one. My Ripsaw will run down a log a good 2 or 3 times faster than my 395 powered csm will, but still slower than even a low end full frame bandmill would if you have the room for one and don't need the portability. If you do indeed have something to move logs to the mill, do yourself a favor and look into some of the lower end bandmills. Norwood for example. If you're going to be slicing enough lumber to build a house, I just think it might get pretty old pretty quickly for you milling with a chain and bar. JUST my humble opinion.


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## woodshop (Sep 29, 2007)

Ianab said:


> Now if you want REALLY big boards , saw 2/3 of the log, flip it over and saw the other side.



Now that's nifty. I tell ya I really like those swingblades for their ability to be taken right to a huge log and set up "around" it and mill. Since I lack the room for full carriage bandmill, and since the way I mill portability is one of the most important factors... if I had the money for one I would surely own one.


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## Matildasmate (Sep 29, 2007)

*Absolutely I agree mate*



woodshop said:


> I know I will ruffle some feathers saying this, but just keep in mind that any kind of chainsaw mill, including the Logosols, are just not designed to mill lots of lumber quickly. They are just too slow for that. Same with the chainsaw powered Ripsaw bandmill. No speed demon itself and a fair amount of setup before you mill board one. My Ripsaw will run down a log a good 2 or 3 times faster than my 395 powered csm will, but still slower than even a low end full frame bandmill would if you have the room for one and don't need the portability. If you do indeed have something to move logs to the mill, do yourself a favor and look into some of the lower end bandmills. Norwood for example. If you're going to be slicing enough lumber to build a house, I just think it might get pretty old pretty quickly for you milling with a chain and bar. JUST my humble opinion.



Hi Woodshop Absolutely , I agree mate . For me though mate I want one of your toys mate , the ripsaw .


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## cantcutter (Sep 30, 2007)

I liked the MB because it cuts true.... circle mills don't have drifting issues as bandmills tend to have. Also its blades can be sharpened right on the mill and when the teeth are too worn you can replace them right on the mill. They also come with the sharpener which most bandmills do not. For the 128 all I would need is the three blades that it comes with and an extra set of teeth. 
With the bandmill I have to take the bands in to get set and sharpened. I already have ordered ten extra bands and will be ordering more within a few months. I feel like I need to have about 20-30 on hand. I don't want to buy a setter or sharpener because I have enough of a learning curve right now just learning to mill. I feel like if I spend a year or so watching somebody else sharpen my bands I will pick it up faster when I am ready to buy the sharpener. My short term goal is to learn to mill well.... I am headed into custom milling and eventually want to buy a woodlot and build a house.


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## woodshop (Sep 30, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Hi Woodshop Absolutely , I agree mate . For me though mate I want one of your toys mate , the ripsaw .



That Ripsaw has served me well for years to the tune of several thousand bd ft a year. It's a bit pricey, and little more of a learning curve all around than my csm was, but how much would 1000 bd ft of custom sawn cherry run me? Comparing the Logosol type mill to the Ripsaw, if you include the cost of the huge saw needed for the Logosols, neither has a big price advantage either way. Of course many here already have a huge saw, and thus only need to put out couple hundred for a 36inch csm to mount it in and they're making lumber with a ladder and a few screws. Nothing wrong with that at all... bottom line is it works and doesn't break the bank. In your case Matildasmate you went the extra mile along those lines with your mill, like Bil and some others here. But... if I had space I would own a full blown bandmill. Of course then I'd need some way to get those logs up to the mill, so I'd still use the csm/Ripsaw combo for all those places where you need to carry the mill to the log, which is where it really shines.


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 30, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Guday mate ....... I Built myself a Logasol type sawmill , mainly out of used steel I had laying around in my shed . Sadly , after watching the Logosol dvd about 30 or more times and every now and then still watching it , I was less than impressed with their dvd...



Your Logosol style mill looks like a cost effective duplication. However, if I understand the pictures correctly, you have to raise the log and add shims underneath the log after each board cut. Is that correct?

I don't disagree that the Alaskan style mills are lower cost - I started that way with the Logosol TimberJig. However, it is murder on the back, and you get tired very quickly from pushing the saw through the wood. With the Woodworkers Mill, you just turn the crank - you don't get tired nearly as fast, meaning you can cut longer and get more wood from the day. Also, there is less log handling and more actual cutting, so the output is higher.

There are many solutions to this problem (cutting wood) - isnt interesting to see the different perspectives? I sure enjoy it.

Regards,

Ted


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## woodshop (Sep 30, 2007)

TedChristiansen said:


> There are many solutions to this problem (cutting wood) - isnt interesting to see the different perspectives? I sure enjoy it.
> Ted


Exactly, too many variable for one size fits all... very well said... I enjoy seeing the different perspectives also


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## Matildasmate (Sep 30, 2007)

*The Freyer Mill (pronounced Frier)*



woodshop said:


> That Ripsaw has served me well for years to the tune of several thousand bd ft a year. It's a bit pricey, and little more of a learning curve all around than my csm was, but how much would 1000 bd ft of custom sawn cherry run me? Comparing the Logosol type mill to the Ripsaw, if you include the cost of the huge saw needed for the Logosols, neither has a big price advantage either way. Of course many here already have a huge saw, and thus only need to put out couple hundred for a 36inch csm to mount it in and their making lumber with a ladder and a few screws. Nothing wrong with that at all... bottom line is it works and doesn't break the bank. In your case Matildasmate you went the extra mile along those lines with your mill, like Bil and some others here. But... if I had space I would own a full blown bandmill. Of course then I'd need some way to get those logs up to the mill, so I'd still use the csm/Ripsaw combo for all those places where you need to carry the mill to the log, which is where it really shines.[/QUOT ................................................................................................................................................................................... Hi Woodshop My mill the Freyer mill (pronounced Frier) may look simular to a Logasol , thats where the simularitys end though , a lot like 2 different brands of cars , yeah both cars , but really nothing a like . After a lot of research , including csm's , bandsaws , Logosol and a number of others , I decided to make something similar to , but better than the M7 , for my personal preferences . I built my mill , then started using it and found a number of bugs and difficulty's I was not impressed with , thats when I really started doing a lot of research , including picking ???? out of the Logosol Dvd , but I now have a much better for bugger all dollars . I still want a rip saw , looks like fun. What size saw do you use on yours . Cheers MM


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## Matildasmate (Sep 30, 2007)

*Yeah I had a timber jig too mate*



TedChristiansen said:


> Your Logosol style mill looks like a cost effective duplication. However, if I understand the pictures correctly, you have to raise the log and add shims underneath the log after each board cut. Is that correct?
> 
> I don't disagree that the Alaskan style mills are lower cost - I started that way with the Logosol TimberJig. However, it is murder on the back, and you get tired very quickly from pushing the saw through the wood. With the Woodworkers Mill, you just turn the crank - you don't get tired nearly as fast, meaning you can cut longer and get more wood from the day. Also, there is less log handling and more actual cutting, so the output is higher.
> 
> ...



Hi Ted Yeah Ted I had a timber jig too mate , I thought it was a heap of crap and as you said too hard on your back . Yes your right about the shims , I have two 8 ton jacks built into my mill (they were cheap) I use them to lift my logs and slap another shim under each end , a very simple operation . Csm's are slow anyway , you can cut all day with my mill and no back problems . Cheers MM


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## woodshop (Sep 30, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> I still want a rip saw , looks like fun. What size saw do you use on yours . Cheers MM



I use a 59cc Stihl MS361, which is plenty of power for the bandmill. With that saw, the mill weighs about 50 lbs.


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## BobL (Sep 30, 2007)

TedChristiansen said:


> However, it is murder on the back, and you get tired very quickly from pushing the saw through the wood. With the Woodworkers Mill, you just turn the crank - you don't get tired nearly as fast, meaning you can cut longer and get more wood from the day. Also, there is less log handling and more actual cutting, so the output is higher.



Ted, I started CS milling on bigger logs only recently and I was dreading the "murdered back" but after a weekend of milling and a sore back I followed aggiewoodbutchers lead and raise the starting end of the log up about 2" above the other end and I am amazed at how little physical exertion is then required. There is no pushing, you just lean lightly onto the mill and guide it down the slab. I can cut all day without breaking into a sweat and have very little back soreness at the end of the day. Some of the logs I am cutting are 3ft diameter seriously hard timber with gummy resin that quickly gunks up the chain - with these it just takes a little longer but there is no more actual effort required.

This slope method works best for short logs (< 10ft, which is mainly what I have access to at the moment) - above that length, the slope generated is too shallow so one does have to push a bit more, but after taking off a slab you can continue to lift the starting end of the log to make it easier and easier. 

For one longer log (about 12ft long and 2ft in diameter) I lifted the whole thing off the ground so I did not have to bend over at all and found it easier than bending down onto the mill to control it. I realize that sometimes it is not always easy to lift logs on site and that it could be much safer to leave the log on the ground. I'm lucky that in the yard I am working in there is a fork lift to do the lifting, but a car jack has done the job almost as easily when the forklift was unavailable. I am in the process of modifying a high-lift jack to lift the ends of trees that I work on off-site - I'll post some pics once I am done.

I agree that CSMs are not the most efficient ways of getting wood out of logs and it disturbs me a bit to see so much of the tree ending up in sawdust but if I didn't mill these logs they would nearly all end up as firewood.

This weekend I did not do any milling instead I had to do a couple of hours of light gardening, now I have a really sore back.:biggrinbounce2: 

"My wife says she knows why I get a sore back - it's because it's too far from my front"!


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## Matildasmate (Oct 1, 2007)

*Top idea Bob*



BobL said:


> Ted, I started CS milling on bigger logs only recently and I was dreading the "murdered back" but after a weekend of milling and a sore back I followed aggiewoodbutchers lead and raise the starting end of the log up about 2" above the other end and I am amazed at how little physical exertion is then required. There is no pushing, you just lean lightly onto the mill and guide it down the slab. I can cut all day without breaking into a sweat and have very little back soreness at the end of the day. Some of the logs I am cutting are 3ft diameter seriously hard timber with gummy resin that quickly gunks up the chain - with these it just takes a little longer but there is no more actual effort required.
> 
> This slope method works best for short logs (< 10ft, which is mainly what I have access to at the moment) - above that length, the slope generated is too shallow so one does have to push a bit more, but after taking off a slab you can continue to lift the starting end of the log to make it easier and easier.
> 
> ...



Hi Bob top Idea mate!


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 1, 2007)

HandLogger said:


> MM
> 
> Rodney: I'm assuming that you use the Logosol mill? Have you cut beams in the 8" x 10" x 22' range with it? I'd love to hear more from you if you have.



Handlogger, I have no need for a beam that long. But if you will go over on the Logosol forum and look for a guy named "Raphael", he has a lot on this subject. He also has a lot of pictures on his website from building his timber frame home and a lot of them show how he handles the logs that size.

Rodney


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## MJR (Oct 1, 2007)

Alright I couldn’t take it any more and have to jump in. 

This whole thing started about a question on low cost mills for New York State (NYS). A swing blade looks like a fun machine to run. In NYS we do not have that many trees to feed a mill like that. A CSM will handle the occasional big stick. I personally feel living on the East coast you need a small/mid-size band mill and a CSM. I always laugh when I read about people discussing mill prices with heavy equipment or $9000 ATV’s pictured in the back ground. The saw mill is the cheapest piece of equipment in the board making process. 

Lets’ see, how much does it cost to run a small band mill. The blades are about $20. Let’s say you can sharpen a blade seven times at $10 each. If you are cutting hard wood maybe a three hour average band running time. Throw in gas money and the cost per hour should be a little over $5. These are all estimates. 

Lets’ see, to run a CSM the chain is not that expensive and with someone with more skill than me can be sharpened on the saw (I am not that good with a file and is the main reason for my band mill). I know my one gallon gas can is of no use running my 385CSM. With gas at about $3 a gallon I would guess a CSM and a band mill cost about the same to run per hour. I sure others here can cost this better than me.

Lets’ see (if) the cost running a band mill and CSM per hour is about the same. If you cut the same species and same size boards with both mills, the band mill will be faster. So I guess one could ague the cost per board hour is cheaper on a band mill (those are fighting words).

Lets’ see portability; hands down the CSM wins this. Well maybe. A CSM is still a system. You need to pack in what ever you are using for your first cut, gas & oil, and spare parts. A CSM will fit is the back of a truck nicely, but so will a small/ mid-size band mill. I spent most Saturdays this summer moving my little band mill by myself. Hell, I even saw a band mill on a pontoon boat not long ago (very cool). Bottom line a CSM is more compact. You can easily put your CSM system on your $9000 ATV and go out to the back 40 (poking a joke).

Lets’ see, the cost difference between a CSM and a small band mill. I have about $1000 in my CSM. Now I am not sure if that is a fair statement. Everyone needs a good saw. It is a basic tool of life. I use this saw a lot for logs for the band mill…My band mill I have about $3000 into it (LL24) and have 20’ of track if I need it and is set up most of the time with 12’ (If I had the equipment to move 17’ logs around I would have a bigger mill.). Just to keep things simple there is about a 3:1 difference in cost. Will I get three times the life out of my band mill – I do not think so. I do get a lot more boards per hour with it.

With all that controversy stated above, if I were planning on building a house I would use the CSM for the timbers (make a custom jig) and mid-size band mill for everything else (to be honest the band mill would most likely be used for every thing). Let’s see, he did state he was a logger and one would hope he had the equipment to move his logs around. After the house project is done sell the CSM and band mill and still get 90% ….I would expect the human body would be about spent after a project this large on the cheap.

BTW I have never liked the looks of Hemlock beams. I just don’t like the way it checks. I have had good luck using wet lumber. If it is all the same wetness there are little problems. The problems seem to creep up when you mix match.

Well there is my $0.02.


Best of luck.


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## HandLogger (Oct 1, 2007)

*Swingers and such*

Ian: I've had the pleasure of operating a Peterson in the past. In fact, this was the mill that was at the top of my list for a good long while. But, alas, the realities of transporting the finished product set in rather quickly at some point. In other words, beams are beams -- they have to be moved somehow. Once you factor in the cost of moving this type of product around (safely), there goes most of the mill budget. By the way, transportation takes precedence because maintaining the farm requires a tractor anyway. Nevertheless, thanks for another fine post, mate! 

Woodshop: Your thoughts on the actual speed of the milling process are well taken. It has certainly occurred to us (many times ) that there's no easy way to employ our chainsaws to mill our saw logs. We would love to have a hydraulic bandmill of some sort, but we simply won't have enough money left over to buy one. Even the lower end, manual bandmills require a fairly hefty investment: additional blades, sharpening and setting in addition to the mill itself. I have more than one friend who owns a WM, so I've got some pretty good sources for bandmill experience. They all think I'm mental for considering anything other than a hydraulic bandmill, and that's one of the main reasons I'm reading your posts so intently. I simply believe that a patient, well-informed decision usually works out best. By the way, time is on our side here. We would like to complete all of our structures *within the next 5 years*. I've got a friend down in Virginia who built a 5,000 sq ft frame in 3.5 years, solo, so I think our goal is fairly realistic. 

Cant Cutter: I timber frame with a fellow who’s a full time WM sawyer, and here’s how he does things. He has an automatic band sharpener in the shop, which he uses to sharpen his bands until they require setting. Once he has accumulated about 20 of these blades, he sends them all back to the factory (WM in this case) for sharpening and setting. He also has a pretty nifty system of using lined tags to keep track of all his blades. He simply makes an entry every time he performs maintenance, or notices anything unusual about performance, so that he has an accurate history of all his bands. This system seems to work out well for him – and he has *lots of* bandmilling experience.

By the way, thanks for your thoughts on the MDS. I know a guy back in my home state who owns one, but I’ve never actually had the opportunity to see one in action. As with any type of mill, I’d love to experience the MDS as well. 

Rodney: If your Raphael is the same one I’m thinking about, I have corresponded with him once or twice in the past. The guy I’m thinking about built a timber frame in Connecticut, but I don’t recall which milling method he used. I’ll go over to the Logosol site and see what I can find out. Thanks again for posting to the thread. 

MJR: It’s a very long story, but this is a project we hope to start this winter. Although I was raised on a farm in the deep south, and have consequently done my share of logging, this is the first parcel of land I’ve worked in the northeast (we were blown up here by Katrina). Although a tractor of some sort is definitely in our future – the parcel in question is a fairly large piece of managed forestland – we do not own one at this time. Regardless, we know that the heavy equipment must come first, which is why I’m trying to learn all I can about the alternatives to expensive mills. As I wrote to Woodshop previously, the photos I saw of him using his chainsaw powered mills are the reason I found this forum. I’ve used another forum for several years, but I really like the folks I’m learning from here. In short, you guys seem a bit less brand-oriented, which makes for more open and honest correspondence. 

By the way, I was taught to timber frame using green timber so that’s about all I know. On the other hand, this will be a very slow project, so it will be interesting to see how this affects things in the end. Your thoughts on hemlock are well taken, but a lot of the large saw logs we'll have access to here will be taken from this species. I’ve got a real problem with taking trees just to get one boxed-heart timber, so I’ll use as many large logs as possible for our frame (because they should render more than one frame member per saw log). We’ve also got a pretty good selection of hardwood on the property, so splined joinery is the order of the day. Thanks for the great post! 

And many thanks to all who've posted here. Please keep the great experience coming. I look forward to learning from you.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 1, 2007)

HandLogger;771669
[U said:


> Rodney[/U]: If your Raphael is the same one I’m thinking about, I have corresponded with him once or twice in the past. The guy I’m thinking about built a timber frame in Connecticut, but I don’t recall which milling method he used. I’ll go over to the Logosol site and see what I can find out. Thanks again for posting to the thread.



Yeah, that sounds like him. And he seems like a nice enough person. On one of his posts, he talked about how he milled 20'+ beams on his 17.5' Logosol M7. Anyway, check out his website. He had a lot of pictures from start to finish. Hope all this helps.

Rodney


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## woodshop (Oct 1, 2007)

HandLogger said:


> ...I simply believe that a patient, well-informed decision usually works out best. By the way, time is on our side here. We would like to complete all of our structures *within the next 5 years*. I've got a friend down in Virginia who built a 5,000 sq ft frame in 3.5 years, solo, so I think our goal is fairly realistic.


Definitely realistic. I'm looking forward to following your progress over the years if you stick around and keep us up to date. btw... I'm so used to NOT having the time to mill and work wood (let alone build a timber frame structure) that I often can't seem to grasp the fact that some folks actually do. My apologies. If indeed you have several years to complete this project, and your pockets like most of us are not as deep as you'd like when it comes to buying milling equipment, then I suppose I would go the simplest cheapest route that would still get the job done. Get yourself a 90-100cc saw and a 36" Mark V csm, about a grand all said and done if you go with a Husky 395. Even cheaper if you can find a good used big bore saw. Build yourself a set of sturdy dedicated milling horses that will get those hemlocks off the ground so easier on the back milling. Build some dedicated platforms to get the milled stuff off the ground and stickered for drying and storage as you mill your beams, and you're in business for less than half the cost of a Ripsaw or Logosol M7.  

Lots of "milling on the cheap" experience here in this forum. Ask away. Your comment about patient gathering of facts before making a decision tells me you are on the right track.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 1, 2007)

*Splined joinery*



HandLogger said:


> Ian: I've had the pleasure of operating a Peterson in the past. In fact, this was the mill that was at the top of my list for a good long while. But, alas, the realities of transporting the finished product set in rather quickly at some point. In other words, beams are beams -- they have to be moved somehow. Once you factor in the cost of moving this type of product around (safely), there goes most of the mill budget. By the way, transportation takes precedence because maintaining the farm requires a tractor anyway. Nevertheless, thanks for another fine post, mate!
> 
> Woodshop: Your thoughts on the actual speed of the milling process are well taken. It has certainly occurred to us (many times ) that there's no easy way to employ our chainsaws to mill our saw logs. We would love to have a hydraulic bandmill of some sort, but we simply won't have enough money left over to buy one. Even the lower end, manual bandmills require a fairly hefty investment: additional blades, sharpening and setting in addition to the mill itself. I have more than one friend who owns a WM, so I've got some pretty good sources for bandmill experience. They all think I'm mental for considering anything other than a hydraulic bandmill, and that's one of the main reasons I'm reading your posts so intently. I simply believe that a patient, well-informed decision usually works out best. By the way, time is on our side here. We would like to complete all of our structures *within the next 5 years*. I've got a friend down in Virginia who built a 5,000 sq ft frame in 3.5 years, solo, so I think our goal is fairly realistic.
> 
> ...


Hi Handlogger................... Any chance of a couple of pics of splined joinery , or does anyone have a link to pics . Cheers MM


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## HandLogger (Oct 2, 2007)

*Splined Joinery*

*MM*: Here are two of the better photos of splined joinery I can find right now. I've got lots of frame photos, so there's no way of being 100% positive about the exact location of these joints, but I'm pretty sure that I've got it right: 

The *first shot *details a Red Oak spline passing through an outside principal post in Bent 2 of a three bay frame. As you can see, the end connecting girt that will join this end of Bents 1 and 2 has been loosely seated on the right end of the spline at this point in the raising.

The *second shot *details the same spline from the right side of the principal post. Here, the framer is loosely fitting the end connecting girt that will eventually span Bents 2 and 3, which will also effectively define one end of Bay 2.

The peg holes for this frame were drawbored. This promotes the "drawing together" (tightening) of frame joinery once the tapered pegs have been driven home. The majority of the beams in this frame were milled from Eastern White Pine (EWP); the braces were milled from Black Birch and Cherry; the pegs are octagonal hickory and black walnut; and the splines were milled from Red Oak, as previously explained.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan on using the same type of joinery in our frame. The splines promote strengthening of the joinery, as well as easing the frame raising process somewhat. As with all things structural, however, the frame must be designed properly, and that design must be followed during the actual construction process. 

I hope this clarifies things a bit, mate ...


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## cantcutter (Oct 2, 2007)

We put one up from a kit once.... everything was cut and ready to go. The exterior walls where sided and had ridged isulation in the middle and they just set inbetween the frame. My brother does them from scratch now.....him and a few guys he knows buys the timbers and cuts and sets up the whole thing. The one they are finishing up now has a full basement and two stories.... been working on it over a year.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 2, 2007)

*Marvelous mate*



HandLogger said:


> *MM*: Here are two of the better photos of splined joinery I can find right now. I've got lots of frame photos, so there's no way of being 100% positive about the exact location of these joints, but I'm pretty sure that I've got it right:
> 
> The *first shot *details a Red Oak spline passing through an outside principal post in Bent 2 of a three bay frame. As you can see, the end connecting girt that will join this end of Bents 1 and 2 has been loosely seated on the right end of the spline at this point in the raising.
> 
> ...



Hi Handlogger...............Mate , excellent stuff , I would be surprised to see any of that sort of work over here , haven't seen anything like it over here yet . Beutiful stuff . Thank you very much for that , much appreciated . Cheers MM


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## Matildasmate (Oct 2, 2007)

*No bars sold over 24", but use 4' bar in dvd*



Rodney Sinclair said:


> Man, what a bummer! Ya send off to get thier DVD, copy the design, cut them out and then all this talk.
> Oh, and looking at all the sawdust around the mill, I'd say it must work pretty good. And did ya know, Logosol doesn't sell a bar over 24". Ya think maybe you might have hit on the reason why? And do you really think that nobody else "leaves out" stuff on thier DVD's.
> Maybe you should just sue the clowns.
> 
> Rodney



Your right Rodney .........they don't sell bars over 24" , but they are happy to promote the use of 4' bars , with 120cc Stihl on oversize logs , to produce a nice banana cut . I currently use a 3' bar on mine a fair bit , but I made a support for mine and intend to use a 5' bar some time next year on mine with a support . Don't get me wrong mate , they have a pretty good product , but it has quite a few bugs though . I seen your your article on water cooling , and went to the Logosol forum , I slapped up a real rough water cooler to try it out , works bloody great mate , chain stays cool , almost no stretching and shrinking , you can touch the chain immediately after using it , I need to come up with a better dripper or a flat spray to control the dust better , the water actually works well also , as a lubricant , as well keeping the chain clean , I am happy to use anyone Ideas . Cheers MM


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## Sawyer Rob (Oct 2, 2007)

> Lets’ see, to run a CSM the chain is not that expensive and with someone with more skill than me can be sharpened on the saw (I am not that good with a file and is the main reason for my band mill). I know my one gallon gas can is of no use running my 385CSM. With gas at about $3 a gallon I would guess a CSM and a band mill cost about the same to run per hour. I sure others here can cost this better than me.



Aren't you leaving a couple things out??? What about that expensive 2 stroke oil you have to put in that gas??? What about that expensive bar oil that baby sucks???

I use to use a CSM, and my Lumbermate runs a lot cheaper than a big powerhead on a CSM. Another thing, you will easily wear out two big powerheads before one OHV Vanguard or OHV Honda will be worn out! Then, there's all the kerf loss to sawdust with a CSM...

CSM's have their place, but for any bigger job i'd pick even an low end bandmill every time! And keep in mind, that bandmill will have a decent resale when your done with it!

Rob


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## cantcutter (Oct 3, 2007)

Chains are cheaper than most bands and last alot longer.... you also don't have to buy 10 chains at a time. I would guess that the csm does burn more fuel than a bandmill though being that the 2 cycle runs at a higher rpm. The bar oil is an added cost that you don't have with a bandmill unless you buy the commercial lubes and I don't think anybody does. If you are factoring the cost of the machines in I would say the bandmill is more expensive to run, but hour to hour I would say that the csm costs more.


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## Sawyer Rob (Oct 3, 2007)

> Chains are cheaper than most bands and last alot longer.... you also don't have to buy 10 chains at a time. I would guess that the csm does burn more fuel than a bandmill though being that the 2 cycle runs at a higher rpm. The bar oil is an added cost that you don't have with a bandmill unless you buy the commercial lubes and I don't think anybody does. If you are factoring the cost of the machines in I would say the bandmill is more expensive to run, but hour to hour I would say that the csm costs more.



Yes and NO... My brother was buying his bands one or two at a time for less than $15ea... The chain on my chainsaw cost more than that! I buy more expensive bands than that, and i sharpen and set them myself, just like i sharpen and lower the rakers on my chain saw chain myself. The difference there is, the cost of the tools. On the other hand, my brother sharpened all his bands freehand with a dremel for a long time... (he has since build a sharpener)

I'm not so sure about the "last a lot longer" either... Compareing how many bd ft each will do, i bet the band will last longer! They do me...

The bandmill will be cheaper to own when you ALSO factor in the resale, and/or keep them both long enough to have to buy that extra powerhead on long term ownership...

If i put in the same hours as some of the guys here sawing one log into slabs with a CSM, i could have sawn out enough extra lumber with my bandmill in that time, and sold it for some side $$... Also every 5th board is FREE with the bandmill...

I'm NOT slamming a CSM, the above is just a fact of life... For some things they are the best tool for the job!

Rob


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 3, 2007)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Aren't you leaving a couple things out??? What about that expensive 2 stroke oil you have to put in that gas??? What about that expensive bar oil that baby sucks???
> 
> I use to use a CSM, and my Lumbermate runs a lot cheaper than a big powerhead on a CSM. Another thing, you will easily wear out two big powerheads before one OHV Vanguard or OHV Honda will be worn out! Then, there's all the kerf loss to sawdust with a CSM...
> 
> ...



I don't think he left out any more than most folks do. In fact, I think he said it all pretty well. What did he say about the blades? $20 to start? Sounds right. Then about $10 to get resharpened? Again sounds about right. Plus shipping, both ways 7 times. So now ya got $100 in one blade. The last time I bought a chain from Bailey's, it cost about $12 plus shipping and to sharpen it took a $1.00 file. Now that is a lot of "expensive oil".

Then he talked about portability. Now I have both the Logosol M7 chainsaw mill and the TimberKing 1220 bandsaw mill. I can move either one of them, but really wouldn't call neither one "portable". That's just the wrong word.

Now the support equipment. I got a 40 hp farm type tractor I bought new in 1979 for almost $10,000. Then I got a backhoe I paid a little over $26,000 for about seven years ago. Plus a Jeep with a 8,000 Warn winch, a 16' trailer and an old 85 duel wheel truck. Yeah, I'd say the mill is the cheapest part.

Then there is all this "kerf loss". If this is so important, why does everyone use a table saw in the shop? Why not the $300 band saw from Sears? Or better yet, from Habor Freight?

Rodney


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## Sawyer Rob (Oct 3, 2007)

> I don't think he left out any more than most folks do. In fact, I think he said it all pretty well. What did he say about the blades? $20 to start? Sounds right. Then about $10 to get resharpened? Again sounds about right. Plus shipping, both ways 7 times. So now ya got $100 in one blade. The last time I bought a chain from Bailey's, it cost about $12 plus shipping and to sharpen it took a $1.00 file. Now that is a lot of "expensive oil".



WOW, you should do my billing with math like that!! lol lol

I guess you didn't know you can sharpen those bands yourself??? AND, even woodmizer sharpens them for less that $10.00 ea., i do believe includeing postage... Like i said, my brother sharpened his for several years with a dremel "freehand" and they did just fine for him. He still spends LESS than $20ea for his bands... How much does that add up to???

As for the tablesaw, have you noticed many shops have went to thin kerf blades???? Did you know even the wide one only has an 1/8" kerf?? Did you know that cabinet shops mostly use a bandsaw for resawing?? I owned and ran my own custom futniture/cabinet shop for many years, and i still have all the tools, so i'm not guessing here...


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 3, 2007)

I wondered what you did for a living. But It just wasn't important enough to me to ask.

Rodney


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## Matildasmate (Oct 3, 2007)

*Timber king*



Rodney Sinclair said:


> I don't think he left out any more than most folks do. In fact, I think he said it all pretty well. What did he say about the blades? $20 to start? Sounds right. Then about $10 to get resharpened? Again sounds about right. Plus shipping, both ways 7 times. So now ya got $100 in one blade. The last time I bought a chain from Bailey's, it cost about $12 plus shipping and to sharpen it took a $1.00 file. Now that is a lot of "expensive oil".
> 
> Then he talked about portability. Now I have both the Logosol M7 chainsaw mill and the TimberKing 1220 bandsaw mill. I can move either one of them, but really wouldn't call neither one "portable". That's just the wrong word.
> 
> ...



Hi Rodney.............. How big is your Bandsaw , how fast do you reckon you can cut a full width slab , in ft a minute roughly , and how many board feet , do you reckon a blade will last , also how many sharpens will a blade last on average . Cheers MM


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## cantcutter (Oct 3, 2007)

WM charges 7.00 plus shipping for sharpening.... TK gets 8.00 plus shipping..... A band will not last 2-3 hrs per sharpening so it adds up fast. I know that bands can be had for 15.00 each, but the average is alot higher than that... I haven't ever paid more than 20.00 for a chain and it costs me nothing to sharpen them. I also havent ever priced milling chains so I don't know about them. It would be interesting to know how much BF each will saw before needing to be replaced.... I would put my bet on the chain.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 3, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Hi Rodney.............. How big is your Bandsaw , how fast do you reckon you can cut a full width slab , in ft a minute roughly , and how many board feet , do you reckon a blade will last , also how many sharpens will a blade last on average . Cheers MM



It's set up to saw 12' and TimberKing says it will cut 29" at the center of a log. But that has to be a perfect log and that doesn't happen very often.It is big enough to do what I want out of it which for the most part is mostly pine for framing and siding. I never timed the cutting but would guess a 24" log 8' long takes a minute or so each cut. With a sharp blade. When the blade is starting to dull is when you start to get a wavey cut. Sometimes it will take a dive on you. I'll try to post a picture so you can see how bad a dive and both the kerfs we are talking about. Board feet depends on how thick you are cutting. On 4/4, I'd say maybe 150 so 8/4 would be double that. Thay don't last long.

Rodney


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## Matildasmate (Oct 3, 2007)

*Nice looking mill*



Rodney Sinclair said:


> It's set up to saw 12' and TimberKing says it will cut 29" at the center of a log. But that has to be a perfect log and that doesn't happen very often.It is big enough to do what I want out of it which for the most part is mostly pine for framing and siding. I never timed the cutting but would guess a 24" log 8' long takes a minute or so each cut. With a sharp blade. When the blade is starting to dull is when you start to get a wavey cut. Sometimes it will take a dive on you. I'll try to post a picture so you can see how bad a dive and both the kerfs we are talking about. Board feet depends on how thick you are cutting. On 4/4, I'd say maybe 150 so 8/4 would be double that. Thay don't last long.
> 
> Rodney



Hell takes a different root when blunt mate . The figures you use 4/4 and 8/4 do they mean 4x4 and 8x4 . Cheers MM


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## cantcutter (Oct 3, 2007)

Matildasmate said:


> Hell takes a different root when blunt mate . The figures you use 4/4 and 8/4 do they mean 4x4 and 8x4 . Cheers MM



here 4/4 would be 1 inch and 8/4 is 2 inch... ie 1x6 and 2x6 is 4/4 x6 and 8/4 x 6. That is how demensional lumber is measured because if you want a full inch you have to buy 5/4 boards. Maybe that is not what he means, but that is where those standards comes from


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## Matildasmate (Oct 3, 2007)

*How many sharpens do you get out of a band?*



cantcutter said:


> WM charges 7.00 plus shipping for sharpening.... TK gets 8.00 plus shipping..... A band will not last 2-3 hrs per sharpening so it adds up fast. I know that bands can be had for 15.00 each, but the average is alot higher than that... I haven't ever paid more than 20.00 for a chain and it costs me nothing to sharpen them. I also havent ever priced milling chains so I don't know about them. It would be interesting to know how much BF each will saw before needing to be replaced.... I would put my bet on the chain.



How many sharpens do you get out of a band , roughly? . I cut this 4 footer up on one sharpen . these bits were on average 12" wide , about 32 lineal feet of cutting . Roughly 2' a minute guessing , I will have to start timeing some of it , just out of interest . It took about a ms660 tank per cut .


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 3, 2007)

I meant it like Cantcutter said. 4/4= 1", 8/4= 2". The pictures were to show what happens when you push a blade to far, and so you can see just how much difference there really is in the kerf.

Rodney


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## Matildasmate (Oct 3, 2007)

*Yep*



Rodney Sinclair said:


> I meant it like Cantcutter said. 4/4= 1", 8/4= 2". The pictures were to show what happens when you push a blade to far, and so you can see just how much difference there really is in the kerf.
> 
> Rodney



Yep I worked that out mate , but I have seen 4/4 and all the others , quite a few time's and not known what it was exactly , over here we say 2"x1" , 3"x1 , 4"x2", 4"x4" and so on , or in metric 42x19 , 70x19 , 90x45 , 90x90 thats millimetre's , none of the inch sizes are actually a full inch , the full inch sizes are really rough sawn sizes before moulding . Cheers MM


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## HandLogger (Oct 3, 2007)

*Great discussion!*

Well, I'm certainly getting an education from all sides of the milling world here!  

Rodney: Those are some of the most informative photos I've seen in a long while! I especially favor the one showing the M7 cut above the Timber King's: very poignant indeed. :newbie: It's just too bad that such a nice cant was diminished by that blade.

Rob: I definitely appreciate hearing for the Norwood folks as well. I know a guy over in NH that has milled some beautiful, long EWP beams with his as well. By the way, I'm presently researching the AGCOs and the ALO attachments as well. I'm impressed right away with the Quicke series stuff. ALO certainly seems to mean business! 

MM: Did you find the photos of the splined joinery informative? The mortising aspect of square rule joinery is a bit more challenging when splines are incorporated in a design, but the payoff comes during assembly. As you saw, those girts can be left loose until you're good and ready, which simplifies raising a frame somewhat. Hope all is well down there. 

CantCutter: I'd like to point out to the readers that CC uses a bandmill. It's good to see that people can still be this objective about things so many take to heart. I really appreciate the honest views. 

Thanks to all who are contributing to the thread. Once again, I look forward to learning even more.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 3, 2007)

HandLogger said:


> Rodney: Those are some of the most informative photos I've seen in a long while! I especially favor the one showing the M7 cut above the Timber King's: very poignant indeed. :newbie: It's just too bad that such a nice cant was diminished by that blade.



Well, it didn't ruin the cant. But it sure took care of that extra board these guys talk about. (big grin)

Rodney


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## HandLogger (Oct 3, 2007)

*Your photos reminded me of ...*

... something I meant to ask, Rodney. Do you get some fairly large logs up on your M7 or, conversely, do you ordinarily "prepare" them prior to putting them on the Logosol? Another way to put this is to ask what size *logs* you've put on your M7 without reducing them (say with a chain saw mill of some sort). By the way, I attempted to contact our friend down in CT, but I haven't heard back yet.

Have a great one ... opcorn:


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## Sawyer Rob (Oct 3, 2007)

It cost me about $.40 cents ea. to sharpen a band, (figureing the wear on the sharpening stone) and nothing to set it...(not includeing my time)

I don't get the grinding wheels for my chainsaw grinder free either, so sharpening them cost me something too.

As for how long they last, it depends a lot on what your cutting, how much dirt ect. ect... But, 300 bd. ft. of 5/4 boards isn't uncommon at all, and lots of guys do better than that...

It really starts at the tree, drag them through the mud, and just like a chain saw chain, dirty logs will dull bands fast...

Every 5th board is FREE, and at $1.00 per bd. ft. you do the math...

Rob


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## woodshop (Oct 3, 2007)

Sawyer Rob said:


> It cost me about $.40 cents ea. to sharpen a band, (figureing the wear on the sharpening stone) and nothing to set it...(not includeing my time)
> 
> I don't get the grinding wheels for my chainsaw grinder free either, so sharpening them cost me something too.
> 
> ...



ditto just about everything he said above... other than my time, only cost for sharpening my blades is $4 for a diamond coated stone to fit in my dremel. It lasts many blades before it's toast itself. No shipping, no handling, no paying somebody else to do it... certainly don't see $100 into a blade... ever. 

How long a blade lasts has many variables. I'm talking about the smaller Ripsaw bandsaw blades now, but seems like larger blades about the same from what I am reading here. I can get anywhere from 200 bd ft of 5/4 to more than 400 ft of 5/4 depending on species and whether I am milling bark or not. I do most of the dirty work with my csm, so when I'm milling with my little bandmill I'm milling wood only, no bark (and it's embedded dirt even if it looks clean) at all. This seems to double or more the life of my blades. Also, certain woods like redcedar and white pine I have gotten 600 bd ft of 5/4 from one blade, they seem to mill all day and not dull the saw blade hardly at all. Others like locust, or pecan, or butternut and I'm lucky to get that 200 ft. 

One thing not mentioned yet though... if I hit metal with my csm, I can usually resharpen the chain and use it again. If I hit metal with my bandsaw blade, it's usually toast... gone with the wind. Grab a fresh blade... that's why I always take at least 4 with me milling.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Oct 3, 2007)

OK, now I've got a question. If the chain costs the same as a band, and the cost for sharpening is the same, and the band lasts as long as the chain, and the band saw is so much faster than the chain,Just what is the big deal about cutting thru bark?

Rodney


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## Ianab (Oct 4, 2007)

> Just what is the big deal about cutting thru bark?



Doesn't matter what saw you are using, bark usually contains dirt and grit, blunts the saw faster then clean wood. So if a log has dirty bark, removing as much as possible before sawing will greatly improve your blade life.

Cheers

Ian


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## BobL (Oct 4, 2007)

Ianab said:


> Doesn't matter what saw you are using, bark usually contains dirt and grit, blunts the saw faster then clean wood. So if a log has dirty bark, removing as much as possible before sawing will greatly improve your blade life.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ian



+1 . In the yard where I've been millin there's a hose right next to my milling spot. Any log that looks like its been rolled around in the dirt and I can't get the bark off easily, gets a long (10 -15 minute) wash, so far it seems to really pay off.


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## Matildasmate (Oct 4, 2007)

*Fire hose*

Yeah I wash me logs with the fire fighter and fire hose , does a good job . Cheers MM


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## woodshop (Oct 4, 2007)

Ianab said:


> Doesn't matter what saw you are using, bark usually contains dirt and grit, blunts the saw faster then clean wood. So if a log has dirty bark, removing as much as possible before sawing will greatly improve your blade life.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ian



ya know... I know this doesn't sound right, but I'm just going by my experience. Even when the bark is "clean", my blades just get dull faster when going through it. I don't think it contains more silicates than the wood... but my blades last the longest when they don't have to slice through any bark, even clean bark. 

btw... after all my milling with both my csm and my little bandmill, I'm still not sure which (chain or blade) is cheaper per bd ft if you're just talking about the cost of the band or chain only. There are just too many variables. I guess if you are ONLY taking into consideration how many bd ft milled before either has to be thrown out, and ONLY going through solid wood for example, no bark or dirt, then I guess the chain would win in the long run. Kinda like that story about the rabbit and the turtle. It is slower and wastes more wood, but can be sharpened many more times before it's toast. If there are dirty logs involved, or something embedded in the log, then the chain wins hands down. As I said earlier, trash a chain and it can be resharpened. Hit metal with a bandsaw blade and you're in need of another blade.


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