# How to measure wood (what is a cord?)



## Guido Salvage (Oct 17, 2011)

We are often asked how much wood is contained in a rick, rank, rack, stack, pile, face cord, bundle, row or some other obtuse term. Since wood is measured by volume, none of these terms can provide a meaningful answer as all contain an indeterminate variable, the length of the wood.

The only recognized (and in many places legal) measurement of wood is the CORD or some fraction thereof (i.e. ¼ cord, ½ cord, etc.). A CORD is defined as containing 128 CUBIC FEET of tightly stacked wood, most commonly arranged in rows 8 feet long, 4 feet high and 4 feet deep. However, any dimensions would work as long as the dimensions equal 128 cubic feet. Since wood is measured by volume, three dimensions are required in order to make the calculation (L x H x D). 

Many times we see the term “face cord” used to define a measure of wood. While not a valid unit of measure, a “face cord” is typically considered to be a pile of wood 8 feet long by 4 feet tall. However, since it lacks a third dimension to calculate volume, it could be of any length and still meet the “definition”. Thus one person could cut logs to 6 inch lengths and stack them in a pile 8 feet long and 4 feet high and call it a “face cord” as could the person who was cutting to 48” lengths. While the latter person’s “face cord” would contain a full cord (128 cubic feet), the former person’s “face cord” would only contain 1/8 of a cord (or 16 cubic feet). 

If selling wood, many states require firewood to be sold by the cord or a fraction thereof. Selling wood in this fashion allows the consumer to know the amount they are purchasing while shielding the seller from claims that the volume fell short of what was advertised or sold. 

To avoid confusion, please refer to wood amounts in cords or a fraction thereof.


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## Dozer Man (Oct 17, 2011)

*Custom Cut Firewood*

Good thread. 

Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time. 
1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...

Very curious to how everyone else deals with this or a similar situation.


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 18, 2011)

Dozer Man said:


> Good thread.
> 
> Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
> 1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...
> ...


 
Price by the cord with a surcharge for any length other than 16"?

Harry K


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## KsWoodsMan (Oct 18, 2011)

*Stay with me , I'm going somewhere with this one !*

I think this thread/stickey is long overdue in the making. The topic comes up often enough and seems to sidetrack the thread it starts in, everytime. 

I've tried to stay out of the discussions knowing that buyers aren't usually looking for cords all at once. Most buyers don't know what a cord really is other than a very large amount of wood. Usually to much for them to either afford or store all of it at once. So it gets broke down to smaller units.

Somewhere back in time the "tightly stowed, ranked, racked or ricked stacks of wood" (4'x4'x8' cords) were probably sold individually one row or ricked stack at a time. I can see where the term rick or rank came from. The face cord is a little bit of a stretch for me but I can see where buyers might only want to buy what they can see, just the portion facing out. OK so the term face cord started getting used in some areas. The length of the wood in these stacks can vary. That's where the problem begins to arise. Some sellers are cutting to varying lengths, some buyers WANT non standard lengths. Not every buyer wants a full cord. Not every seller can deliver a cord all at once.

I fully agree that a cord, fraction of cord or by the cubic foot/meter is the only definitive way to measure and sell firewood. We are NOT going to be productive in changing the long standing mind set of every firewood buyer or seller in every region by beating other members over the head with the description of a cord of wood. I know there are sellers passing off roughly 2/3 cord (2 ricks) of wood for a cord. They are breaking the law, this doesn't make them dishonest people, not all of them. Who hasn't sped, run over weight or put gas in a non-approved container ? Partly it is a matter of being misinformed by someone that introduced them to firewood. Others ? well yeah, their credibility is plausible. They can be as easy to spot as green wood with fresh sawdust. 

Hopefully, any future reference to non standard measurements, regardless of what they are called, will be politely referred back to this thread. This way no accusations of credibility are cast from their use of a familiar term instead of an industry standard term. 


Afterthought: I avoided using the word "universal" because some members outside of N. America might not recognize a cord but would know a M^3 if they seen one.


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## Coldfront (Oct 18, 2011)

Shouldn't your reference to dimension in the first post be L x H x W = cord or percent of cord? 
(length, height, width)
What does the D stand for in L x H x D diameter?
And probably the most misleading thing about selling firewood cut and split even more so than using the term face cord is the passing off of a pickup truck load as a cord of wood. A pickup load without high side walls can never hold a cord of wood. Might as well go down that road as well.


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## Dozer Man (Oct 18, 2011)

Dozer Man said:


> Good thread.
> 
> Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
> 1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...
> ...


 

I'm definately not trying to sidetrack this thread. I saw this thread come up and thought it a good place to ask this question. I have no problem using CORD as a standard of meas. for selling wood. My question is still how to charge for a cord of wood...3/3 vs. 4/4??? One has roughly 30% more labor. Just remember every area has different accordingly's to go by. (rick,rank,facecord...). If anybody knows of a "standard" for Indiana I would like to know.

Thanks AS


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## Guido Salvage (Oct 18, 2011)

Coldfront said:


> Shouldn't your reference to dimension in the first post be L x H x W = cord or percent of cord?
> (length, height, width)
> What does the D stand for in L x H x D diameter?



I thought about using width (W) but thought some might confuse that with the length of the row. In this instance D = Depth. They would certainly be interchangeable but W is probably more familiar to people who suffered through math in school.

Perhaps this helps:


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## Philbert (Oct 18, 2011)

Guido Salvage said:


> The only recognized (and in many places legal) measurement of wood is the CORD or some fraction thereof (i.e. ¼ cord, ½ cord, etc.). A CORD is defined as containing 128 CUBIC FEET of tightly stacked wood, most commonly arranged in rows 8 feet long, 4 feet high and 4 feet deep. However, any dimensions would work as long as the dimensions equal 128 cubic feet.



Some states allow wood to be sold by weight, but I never understood how to account for green or wet wood.

The tightly packed part is also important. There is frequently confusion about cords of full length logs (a.k.a. 'logger's cord') which result in less than 128 cubic feet when cut, split and stacked. This is because cut and split wood can be stacked more tightly, even though the weight should be close (minus saw dust).




Dozer Man said:


> I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. . . . Less wood but same cuts and splits.



Interesting question. Just kicking around some ideas.

If you could figure out how much of what you charge is attributable to your raw materials (wood), how much to your time, how much to your overhead (fuel, chains, use of splitter, saws, truck etc.), you could calculate a different price, just as you might for a cord of poplar versus a cord of oak, where your time is the same but one wood sells for more. 

As a potential buyer, I would expect to pay less for a 4'X8'X12" stack of wood than a 4X8X16" stack, because I would be getting less wood, even though your labor is the same. So maybe not 75% of the 16" price. Not 100%. Maybe 90% if they buy one 12" stack, and 85% if they buy 4 (full cord)? Or maybe you start with your 'regular' price and simply add a 'custom-order' charge for anything else?

Kick around some numbers, round them off a bit, and ask your friends if that seems fair. Maybe call around to other firewood ads and ask what they charge?

Philbert


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## KsWoodsMan (Oct 18, 2011)

Dozer Man, a cord is the valid legal term for selling firewood, even in Indiana. When I sell firewood I'll advertise it as ..."a rick, measuring 4'x8'x16" equaling 1/3 cord." I cover the local term that buyers know and the legal definition of how much the buyer should expect to receive. Check your local Craigslist for the term used local to your area and cover your butt with the legally correct amount you are selling. 

Your other question is valid enough to start a separate thread and will probably get more exposure/responses on its own.


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## Dozer Man (Oct 18, 2011)

*Good Advice*

Thanks guys...Great advice all around.


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## Steve2910 (Oct 18, 2011)

philbert said:


> some states allow wood to be sold by weight, but i never understood how to account for green or wet wood.
> 
> The tightly packed part is also important. There is frequently confusion about cords of full length logs (a.k.a. 'logger's cord') which result in less than 128 cubic feet when cut, split and stacked. This is because cut and split wood can be stacked more tightly, even though the weight should be close (minus saw dust).
> 
> ...


 
if the phone rings "off the hook" & you sell out in hours, the price is too low. If you get zero calls, the price is too high. The law of supply & demand works in any economic condition


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## ratso (Oct 18, 2011)

*Cord*

I'm new to AS and I have been using firewood for heat since the ice age.I had never heard of a rik,rack,face or whatever until I read it here on AS.


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## Philbert (Oct 19, 2011)

ratso said:


> I'm new to AS and I have been using firewood for heat since the ice age.I had never heard of a rik,rack,face or whatever until I read it here on AS.


 
Then there is the 'bundle'. At local gas stations, they sell a plastic wrapped bundle of firewood, maybe 16" in diameter (?) and 16" long for $4-$5. About 20 years ago, we put a wood stove insert in our fireplace and checked the classified ads for firewood. Several guys had 'bundles' of slab wood (clapboard) from the mills. Something like $60 a bundle for one, $55 a bundle for 2, $50 a bundle for 3, delivered. How big is a bundle? Could not get a straight answer. Sucker for a deal, so I ordered 2 bundles to get some of the price break.

Guy pulls into our alley (city lot) with a boom truck and places 2 'bundles' of oak clapboard over the fence. Each one was about the size of a Honda Accord, held together by heavy steel strapping. Worked out fine for us, except that we had too much wood. Had a couple of friends come over to help cut it up in exchange for free wood. Cut it off into 16" lengths. Split some of the wider planks down, but nothing like splitting rounds. Perfect stove sized wood. 

Still not sure if I had ordered it again, or from another ad, how big the bundles would have been.

Philbert


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## Coldfront (Oct 19, 2011)

If a guy wants 1/3 cord but in 12" pieces I would charge the same as a 16" piece, and yes he will be a little shorted on actual wood just because of the custom size cut, but you can just throw in a few extra pieces. It is really no extra work if you are cutting off a log length wood.


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## Philbert (Oct 19, 2011)

Coldfront said:


> If a guy wants 1/3 cord but in 12" pieces I would charge the same as a 16" piece, and yes he will be a little shorted on actual wood just because of the custom size cut, but you can just throw in a few extra pieces. It is really no extra work if you are cutting off a log length wood.


 
This makes sense, and was my first reaction. But what if he wants a full cord cut into 12" pieces instead of 16" pieces. How much would you charge?

Philbert


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## Coldfront (Oct 19, 2011)

There can't be that many people who want a full cord of 12" pieces. Explain to them it will cost extra, 2 extra cuts per 8' log and extra splitting. If they don't like it send him down the road.


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## ratso (Oct 19, 2011)

Coldfront said:


> There can't be that many people who want a full cord of 12" pieces. Explain to them it will cost extra, 2 extra cuts per 8' log and extra splitting. If they don't like it send him down the road.[/UOTE
> 
> I don't sell wood but know of people that get 12 inch pieces smaller woodstove and some elderly people can not handle the extra 4 inches weight.


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## Coldfront (Oct 19, 2011)

ratso said:


> Coldfront said:
> 
> 
> > There can't be that many people who want a full cord of 12" pieces. Explain to them it will cost extra, 2 extra cuts per 8' log and extra splitting. If they don't like it send him down the road.[/UOTE
> ...


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## Dozer Man (Oct 19, 2011)

KsWoodsMan said:


> Dozer Man, a cord is the valid legal term for selling firewood, even in Indiana. When I sell firewood I'll advertise it as ..."a rick, measuring 4'x8'x16" equaling 1/3 cord." I cover the local term that buyers know and the legal definition of how much the buyer should expect to receive. Check your local Craigslist for the term used local to your area and cover your butt with the legally correct amount you are selling.
> 
> Your other question is valid enough to start a separate thread and will probably get more exposure/responses on its own.


 
I took your advice and started a new thread about "Price per cord...3/3 cord vs. 4/4 cord". 
Again, thanks to all and I certainly did not mean to highjack this thread. It is a great topic that I will continue to follow.


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## Philbert (Oct 19, 2011)

Dozer Man said:


> I took your advice and started a new thread about "Price per cord...3/3 cord vs. 4/4 cord". QUOTE]
> 
> For those interested in the new thread:
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/183304.htm


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## tbow388 (Oct 21, 2011)

Me answering in my normal way, I would say the best way to accurately measure a cord of wood is with a tape measure!!.........

http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/ices_rofl.gif


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## Rearden (Oct 23, 2011)

In response to the crack about who should and shouldn't be burnin' wood, I have two younger kids that actually help out at home, and they have issues with the bigger wood, but we also inherited an insert that's pretty small at the back - so 12-14" logs are a lot easier to load. I also cut for two older couples that can't afford to pay the oil company ransom, so the only affordable way for them to keep warm and remain independent is to burn what they can handle. Rather than piles of sticks they prefer thicker pieced splits of a shorter length. Who am I to judge?

Coldfront, gettin' old ain't fer pussies, and if ya don't drop a tree on yerself, ya might live long enough to find that out for yourself. People don't have to justify to the market what they want and why, they just have to be willing to pay for it and the market will typically respond. The annoyance of trying to deal with irregular or malapropped units of measure only makes people more leery and a bigger PITA to deal with. I show folks a four row cord of 12" that I keep for our small insert, and a three row cord of 16" that I cut for another. Since I'm cuttin' for a year or two out there's always a split cord of each on hand for them to see for themselves. Don't have to do much explaining about why I charge more for one than the other. The extra work is self evident and most folks can see and understand that without too much trouble.

Visual aids aside, people also appreciate being shown how to determine seasoned from green and the difference in BTU potential between varieties of wood. If you're interested in establishing a relationship where people trust you and come back for more, you can't be too forthcoming with information. I've never had anybody complain about me trying to be too honest.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 27, 2011)

It's amazing what part of 128 cubic ft. people don't understand. A cord is only a cord when it's cut into 4' lengths x 8' x 4'. What happens to it once it is cut and split depends on several factors. Regardless it's best to be fair and give a full measure+. I always liked 'bin volume', ie loose thrown wood, meaning 12" wood ocupies 160 cubic feet while 16" wood ocupies 180 cubic feet, accurate to +- 5%.
It's not so much that we are splitting hairs, it's just that math tells us that a 16" cord will stretch out 24' but try to fit that within 128cu.ft. It just wont happen.
Regardless, keep the customer happy, give a full measure and you'll have them for a long as your cutting wood.
John


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## olyman (Dec 22, 2011)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's amazing what part of 128 cubic ft. people don't understand. A cord is only a cord when it's cut into 4' lengths x 8' x 4'. What happens to it once it is cut and split depends on several factors. Regardless it's best to be fair and give a full measure+. I always liked 'bin volume', ie loose thrown wood, meaning 12" wood ocupies 160 cubic feet while 16" wood ocupies 180 cubic feet, accurate to +- 5%.
> It's not so much that we are splitting hairs, it's just that math tells us that a 16" cord will stretch out 24' but try to fit that within 128cu.ft. It just wont happen.
> Regardless, keep the customer happy, give a full measure and you'll have them for a long as your cutting wood.
> John



HOLY COW!! Hes alive!!! heal up from the year ago injury??? good to hear you respond on the forum..


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## rarefish383 (Dec 31, 2011)

Gypo, I've got to dissagree. The outside dimension is what counts. If the wood is cut to 16", 3 rows 4' high and 8' long, are 4' wide. Yes it's also 24 feet long. If you put a sheet of 4X8 plywood on the ground and stacked your pile 4 foot high it's a cord, no matter how many rows it take to fill out the sheet. Now, something to agree on. When my Dad was a kid in the 20's and 30's he said they cut Pine Cordwood for pulp, and it was cut in 4' lenghts, for 2 bucks a cord, Joe.


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## RAG66 (Jan 2, 2012)

I have cut wood for years and still can not believe the "wood dealers" around here. I use to buy when I could afford it, always to the dealers advantage. Even when the tape is out and you measure the bed of the truck right in front of the guy, he says "thats a half cord". MY ***! I have sold wood too and always warn the customer it is not seasoned and is for the following year. I always give a full cord, if it is not enough out comes the tape measure. You can not argue with the tape! Now could we get people to understand what seasoned wood is.....


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## deerjackie (Jan 5, 2012)

128 cu ft its in websters . i had to check it when i was 17, 47 now. its 128 cu ft no matter how you stack it. lol


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## rarefish383 (Jan 11, 2012)

deerjackie said:


> 128 cu ft its in websters . i had to check it when i was 17, 47 now. its 128 cu ft no matter how you stack it. lol



Bingo, Joe.


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## l3lue (Jan 15, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> I thought about using width (W) but thought some might confuse that with the length of the row. In this instance D = Depth. They would certainly be interchangeable but W is probably more familiar to people who suffered through math in school.
> 
> Perhaps this helps:




That looks just like one of my cords , I cut mine at 24" so 2 stacks 8' long X 4' high = 1 cord :hmm3grin2orange:

This is a good thread so many people have no clue what a cord of wood is


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 15, 2012)

l3lue said:


> That looks just like one of my cords , I cut mine at 24" so 2 stacks 8' long X 4' high = 1 cord :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> This is a good tread so many people have no clue what a cord of wood is



Or even why wood should be measured to an industry standard so everygody knows how much is there.

Harry K


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## woodyman (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't sell it anymore but when I did a few years back it was $70.00 a cord(24'long 4'high and 16"wide) for beer money.I did trade my brother a cord that was 24'long 4'high and 18"wide for the same but 16"wide.I got a different stove and didn't want to recut it all to fit.Heres a pic of a cord of my wood.Does it look tight enough?


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## firewood guy (Jan 16, 2012)

*Back-out the wood cost and figure the labor cost*

Everyone in the biz sort of knows the ratio between the cost of gathering / cutting / buying the raw wood and the cost of processing same. If you have a customer that requests 12" lengths (we have about 2-5% that request that) simply adjust the processing labor accordingly and add it to the cord price. When I explain this to the customer, they understand why the price is more and because we cater to that customer, we seem to get repeat biz all the time.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 17, 2012)

woodyman said:


> I don't sell it anymore but when I did a few years back it was $70.00 a cord(24'long 4'high and 16"wide) for beer money.I did trade my brother a cord that was 24'long 4'high and 18"wide for the same but 16"wide.I got a different stove and didn't want to recut it all to fit.Heres a pic of a cord of my wood.Does it look tight enough?



Now that is tight!

Harry K


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## chucker (Jan 17, 2012)

*??? a cord !!*

any shape or form length of wood stacked tight and parallel to equal 221,184 cubic inches.... or close to it ?? ............


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## Guido Salvage (Jan 17, 2012)

chucker said:


> any shape or form length of wood stacked tight and parallel to equal 221,184 cubic inches.... or close to it ?? ............



When you get into the minutia of cubic inches, those air gaps become all more important...


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## branchbuzzer (Jan 17, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> When you get into the minutia of cubic inches, those air gaps become all more important...



Are you sure that shouldn't be minutiae?







:jester:


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 17, 2012)

branchbuzzer said:


> Are you sure that shouldn't be minutiae?
> 
> :jester:



Busted, Guido!


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## branchbuzzer (Jan 17, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Busted, Guido!



Now, hold on, I wasn't _positive_ it was incorrect usage. I just wanted a clarification on this important matter and guidance on whether the correct usage of minutiae was a minutia in and of itself.

::thumbsup::


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 17, 2012)

branchbuzzer said:


> Now, hold on, I wasn't _positive_ it was incorrect usage. I just wanted a clarification on this important matter and guidance on whether the correct usage of minutiae was a minutia in and of itself.
> 
> ::thumbsup::



Minutiae is the plural of minutia, and there are obviously a LOT of minutiae in 221,184 CI, so you are correct.

:smile2::msp_tongue::wink2:


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## branchbuzzer (Jan 17, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Minutiae is the plural of minutia, and there are obviously a LOT of minutiae in 221,184 CI, so you are correct.
> 
> :smile2::msp_tongue::wink2:



Well, I wasn't sure cubic inches as a group could truly be considered plural as opposed to several individual cubic inches. 

:msp_unsure:


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## CRThomas (Jan 20, 2012)

*Size*



Dozer Man said:


> Good thread.
> 
> Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
> 1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...
> ...


Check with the members in England when I was over there I noticed some people's wood chunks were square like 8 x 8 I'm guessing on the size but I didn't have tape to be correct. And some sold it that way. If some body orders a certain size like a rank 12 inch long I charg the regular price. It takes the same amount of time. I only sell bundles I have a lady want her wood small. I take a 8 stick bundle and split it to 20 sticks I charge her $10.00 a bundle. She want them 12 inch long and no bark. She buys 30 at a time I have deliver it put them behind her stove and show her the moister percent with my meter. That's about 6 hours total work if that's what you want to call it. I have found there is no set size for wood people just say it a rank and most people believe them. When I sold bulk I would deliver a true rank and people would say no I only want a rank my reply that is a face rank little over four foot tall and eight feet long 16 to 18 inch. They say I always put a rank right here but that's more than I room for so a rank or cord is what people can con the customer with.


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## CRThomas (Jan 20, 2012)

*Size*

I have a friend out side Cordon Indiana that sells firewood buy the rank his rank is 4' x 4' x 32 inchs. His size is based on to be able to pick the stack up off his trailer with his tractor forks and put it where the customer wants it at with out spilling the whole stack. He is on here pretty regular. His home place says southern Indiana


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## whatscooking (Jan 21, 2012)

Wow, always wondered about this. Knowledge is power right. Just sayn, here 16'' 18'' is what most people like to buy and use. 4x8 stacked is what a rick is considered to be, which is a good size not huge load thrown not stacked on a 3\4 pickup and sells for $40-45 all day long. Right wrong whatever allot of people cannot afford to buy or are too lazy or ARE unable to cut at one time what everyone else calls a coard which is probably where the term a rick of wood comes from.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 21, 2012)

whatscooking said:


> Wow, always wondered about this. Knowledge is power right. Just sayn, here 16'' 18'' is what most people like to buy and use. 4x8 stacked is what a rick is considered to be, which is a good size not huge load thrown not stacked on a 3\4 pickup and sells for $40-45 all day long. Right wrong whatever allot of people cannot afford to buy or are too lazy or ARE unable to cut at one time what everyone else calls a coard which is probably where the term a rick of wood comes from.



The industry standard is a cord. State regulations where they exist say that the only legal way to sell wood is by the cord _or fraction thereof_. Someone them specify it can be sold by weight IIANM. Why do you think someone wouild be unable to buy or cut it in fractions of a cord?

"rick" and the other common measures are local only. The real definitionof a "rick" is any pile of wood from 3 pieces on up stacked one stick wide and as high and long as you want to pile it. My current "using" pile is 20' x 6' x 16" ricks or about 1 1/4 cord per rick.

Harry K


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## HOGBEAR (Jan 29, 2012)

*Your right*



Rearden said:


> In response to the crack about who should and shouldn't be burnin' wood, I have two younger kids that actually help out at home, and they have issues with the bigger wood, but we also inherited an insert that's pretty small at the back - so 12-14" logs are a lot easier to load. I also cut for two older couples that can't afford to pay the oil company ransom, so the only affordable way for them to keep warm and remain independent is to burn what they can handle. Rather than piles of sticks they prefer thicker pieced splits of a shorter length. Who am I to judge?
> 
> Coldfront, gettin' old ain't fer pussies, and if ya don't drop a tree on yerself, ya might live long enough to find that out for yourself. People don't have to justify to the market what they want and why, they just have to be willing to pay for it and the market will typically respond. The annoyance of trying to deal with irregular or malapropped units of measure only makes people more leery and a bigger PITA to deal with. I show folks a four row cord of 12" that I keep for our small insert, and a three row cord of 16" that I cut for another. Since I'm cuttin' for a year or two out there's always a split cord of each on hand for them to see for themselves. Don't have to do much explaining about why I charge more for one than the other. The extra work is self evident and most folks can see and understand that without too much trouble.
> 
> Visual aids aside, people also appreciate being shown how to determine seasoned from green and the difference in BTU potential between varieties of wood. If you're interested in establishing a relationship where people trust you and come back for more, you can't be too forthcoming with information. I've never had anybody complain about me trying to be too honest.


 My folks are getting older and they cant handle larger wood so I have to cut them smaller stuff to make their lives easier. Just because their older should they not enjoy a bone warming fire.


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## Alan cox (Feb 2, 2012)

*ricked by a cord. too funny.*

:msp_smile:


Guido Salvage said:


> We are often asked how much wood is contained in a rick, rank, rack, stack, pile, face cord, bundle, row or some other obtuse term. Since wood is measured by volume, none of these terms can provide a meaningful answer as all contain an indeterminate variable, the length of the wood.
> 
> The only recognized (and in many places legal) measurement of wood is the CORD or some fraction thereof (i.e. ¼ cord, ½ cord, etc.). A CORD is defined as containing 128 CUBIC FEET of tightly stacked wood, most commonly arranged in rows 8 feet long, 4 feet high and 4 feet deep. However, any dimensions would work as long as the dimensions equal 128 cubic feet. Since wood is measured by volume, three dimensions are required in order to make the calculation (L x H x D).
> 
> ...



we have several trailers we deliver 10 cord loads of wood on. weighed or measured. major difference in weight for each load depending on species. dry. high ground or low ground. ( mineral content) for a load. the trailers also deliver stacked wood. we only can get 24 rows of wood stacked crossways on this triler and the load weighs the same.. approx 24 ricks of wood that we sell .

have been doing this for years. do not suscribe to the 128 cubic foot of wood.. according to the ratings from several places there is only 85 cubic of wood in a cord. 128 cubic of wood would indicate that the wood delivered was cut in square pieces. 

I discuss this in detail on coxx.com communication or mis communication is a major problem in selling wood.

when a cord of wood is cut up. and sold as cords. its like taking a loaf of bread. cutting it up and selling it as a loaf of toast.. dont work. cant happen and people have been doing it for years.

really liked part of your post. serious problem how I get around this is I tell the customer what I am delivering. and the price. e mail them a picture or better yet. send them to a customer that has had a load delivered . send them over to see it. ask the delivered guy if its ok to send some one by to see his wood. most have went and looked at a load. this is the best way to do it.
dosnt matter what it is. if they like what they see. agree to the price. its ok by them. totaly dosnt matter what amount of wood it is. if the guys is happy with what he sees and gets. we are good to go. al


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## Dozer Man (Feb 2, 2012)

Alan cox said:


> :msp_smile:
> 
> we have several trailers we deliver 10 cord loads of wood on. weighed or measured. major difference in weight for each load depending on species. dry. high ground or low ground. ( mineral content) for a load. the trailers also deliver stacked wood. we only can get 24 rows of wood stacked crossways on this triler and the load weighs the same.. approx 24 ricks of wood that we sell .
> 
> ...




Not trying to argue, but what you've described is exactly the reason I think this thread was started. You give no dimensions of your trailer or your "rick" for discussion. Also, are you talking about processed or unprocessed firewood? By definition, isn't a "cord" of firewood..._128cu.ft. of split, tightly stacked wood_??


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## Alan cox (Feb 4, 2012)

*2 buks a cord. in 55 It was I think about 8*



rarefish383 said:


> Gypo, I've got to dissagree. The outside dimension is what counts. If the wood is cut to 16", 3 rows 4' high and 8' long, are 4' wide. Yes it's also 24 feet long. If you put a sheet of 4X8 plywood on the ground and stacked your pile 4 foot high it's a cord, no matter how many rows it take to fill out the sheet. Now, something to agree on. When my Dad was a kid in the 20's and 30's he said they cut Pine Cordwood for pulp, and it was cut in 4' lenghts, for 2 bucks a cord, Joe.



we just buried a old timer that did that . he also said that land was 50cents a acre.. and that was before 4 buk a gallon fuel and insurance on truck. helper. protection for the land owner. they all wnat a million dollar liability and a contract from the state if you even think of bidding on wood from them.
truck or equipment must not leak any oil what so ever. it must be power washed and sanatized before it goes in any state jobs or moved from one state job to another.

what does this do to a cord of wood I ask you. these guys who buy from a land owner and dont pay him or better yet go to the back of his propertty and cut it and he dosnt even know its gone.. lots to this story


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## Alan cox (Feb 4, 2012)

*measureing firewood. both agree what the guy is getting and for how much.*



Dozer Man said:


> Not trying to argue, but what you've described is exactly the reason I think this thread was started. You give no dimensions of your trailer or your "rick" for discussion. Also, are you talking about processed or unprocessed firewood? By definition, isn't a "cord" of firewood..._128cu.ft. of split, tightly stacked wood_??



I have a webb page that explains what I sell. measurements of the trailer and how high it is approximately. we weigh a lot of loads and sell the exact same load to customers as we do the paper mill.. the mill uses 4000 lbs to call it a cord. that takes care of the tape ruler.

we sell cut and split wood that we keep in the barn for 2 years. I call it premium hardwood. my ad reads. lady size pieces. delivered and stacked in your garage. or back porch. two year old dry hardwood or oak. 4ft high. 4 ft wide and in 16 ( sixteen inch ) pieces. $75 two hour delivery when possible. see pictures at coxx.com or movies on you tube alanjcox

its the service and the guarantee. if it isnt what I said it is when it gets to your house and you dont like it. you dont have to buy it. no problem. same guarantee for my big loads.

now I ask you. who has a semi truck. takes chances on taking a load for a hundred miles to someone he hasnt ever met., dosnt know the guy. the location. gonna get sued. had all this happen and still in business.

I totally agree on this measuremment business and I am part of the problem. I used to get guys that wanted a ten cord load to cut up to 30 rick. sooooooooooo what I would do is take the guy 10 cord and call it 8. but charge him the same price. he got his 24 ricks. paid for 8 that made him happy. I got my 1,200 and I was happy. he didnt care what it was as long as it measured out to what he expected.

no problem around these measurements. I use tons. that works sweet but the best way is tell the guy to go see a load. that is what he is going to get for x amount of dollars for me to take a load to him.today a 150 mile run with 45-50 thousand lbs of wood is 1,600 thats green wood.

we are several weeks behind. that is approx 5,000 $ of propane.

I used to sell outside boilers. aqua 2. put a system in a green house . 3 of them. this was 10 years ago. his propane was 30,000 at the time. 5 loads of wood at that time were 5000$
he paid for the boilers the wood and had several grand left over the first year.

we stil have a awesome value but know this. the state is closing every door to be sucessfull in this business.

the customer pays. when I get a 150 $ tikit for a mud flap in baldin that was 6 inches to shrt.
get a 150$ tiket in reed city for driving into a public parking lot with a semi truck.
189$ tiket by kalamazoo for a marginally loose tie rod end. I dont pay a dime. it gets added to your firewood.

take a look around. the war with the tape ruler is a simple fix. these city cops that are stealing from the customers is what the real problem is.

did you know that we are now hooked up with a federally mandated dot number. after we get stopped so many times. even for nothing. our insurance rates go up.
a dot guy stopped me and didnt see my numbers. 3 inches high on the side of my hood. stainless steel. polished chrome. didnt see them. now that is one of my dings on my record.

its not if but when. me and the rest of us old buzzards that are just plain done with being plauged by these municapalaties that are stealing.

and useing me to do it. no one no way can get by a dot cop without getting a tiket for something. they write up about 15 things that could be expensive as repair that are not tikketed but ccold be and give you one for a mud flap . no points but just a little teaser . kind of like a little collection thing.
it wont be long I assure you that your firewood will be put by the wayside by greedy people and guys like me that will say the f word just before the bang:it )word.


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 4, 2012)

Alan Cox,

The standard cord volume of 128 cubic feet is used to provide a uniform means of measurement. It provides a quantifiable amount which you do not get either with tonnage (which can vary greatly based on moisture content) or with a "face" cord (where the length is indeterminate).

Since you are in Michigan, you may want to review the state statutes. The following is taken directly from the Michigan Department of Natural Resources website at the link below:

DNR - Firewood/Fuelwood

"Measurements of a standard cord: *Firewood, in non-packaged form, is sold by a measurement called a "cord" or "fraction of a cord." A "cord" is defined as 128 cubic feet when the wood is neatly stacked in a line or row.* A standard or full "cord" would be 8 feet long, 4 feet wide and 4 feet high. *You may also hear or see the terms 'ric' or 'face cord' or some other local measurement. These terms have no standard measurements, so be careful when purchasing wood from a buyer that uses these terms.* Make sure that you know the dimensions of the pile of wood that is being sold. A 'ric' or 'face cord' is often a stack of wood that is 8' long, 4' high, and 16" - 24" wide, depending."


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## Alan cox (Feb 5, 2012)

*good gwammer ok. I will twy*



Guido Salvage said:


> Alan Cox,
> 
> The standard cord volume of 128 cubic feet is used to provide a uniform means of measurement. It provides a quantifiable amount which you do not get either with tonnage (which can vary greatly based on moisture content) or with a "face" cord (where the length is indeterminate).
> 
> ...




I am a truck driver. can run that tool reasonably well. just do this when I am up at night and can't sleep. pretty busy trying to come up with idea's on how to survive this serious titanic of the economy surrounding us.

I just do this for fun. not trying to be perfect in anyway. if you look at my webb page you will see that most of is is written in my style.

it is how. who and what my life style is about. grammer. spelling. as long as the idea gets across. fyne by me.

my webb page has been on the net sice I think 85, ws 1 of the first. thats why I am at the top of google on semi loads of firewood for the first 10 positions.. bad spelling and all. my page gets thousand of hits a day. ( a day) spelling bad and all.

one guy wrote me and said that he was glod to talk to someone in the wood business that sounded half ways intelligent.. yup yup yup. dats me I said..

I yust wuv it. u siwwy wabbit.


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## M-tooth (Feb 8, 2012)

Some info for ya

full stacked cord 4x4x8 = 128 cu. ft.

even well stacked

softwood cord will usually only yield 90 to 95 cu. ft.

hardwood cord about 80 to 85 cu. ft.

This is due to the straight nature of softwood over the irregularity's of hardwood. It doesn't matter how well the wood is stacked, there is also going to be a lot of air space. I don't remember what the cubic volume of a tumbled cord is but for some reason the number 168 cu. ft. comes to mind.


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## Alan cox (Feb 9, 2012)

*cool. good info if its on your webb page.*



M-tooth said:


> Some info for ya
> 
> full stacked cord 4x4x8 = 128 cu. ft.
> 
> ...



in my world. where I make my living selling wood that dont and wont work. first a cord is for eight foot wood. its like bread. a loaf is a loaf of bread. when you cut it up and toast it now you can not buy a loaf of toast. its by the slice.

this is on my webb site. I cut up loads right off the truck. I have three guys that cut up a ten cord load approx 45,000 lbs of wood. these guys best time is one hour and forth five minuites. sound like we know what we are doing right. there is a movie on you tube of us doing this.

I have the same trailer. deliver stacked wood. stacked in 24 rows of one face cord in each rowl guess what that load wieghs. your right. pretty close to 45,000 lbs.

hhmmmmmmmmmmmm I ask. how can a cord cut out to three face cord.

my custoemrs get told that my load will be 24 stacks of wood 4 ft by 4 ft and in sixteen inch pieces.

at least my customers know exactly what they are getting. they agree and are happy with that . have been doing this for thirty years .

i ask you. does that mean I have been ripping people off al these years or am I kinda right. I gotta know. al

I wiill never tell someone that there is three ricks in a cord because jeasus couldnt cut three out . aint gonna happen.


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## M-tooth (Feb 9, 2012)

Alan cox said:


> first a cord is for eight foot wood.



When you talk with old timers around here and you say cord they are going to think you are talking about 4 foot pulp wood. The word cord has been mangled and adapted to describe many things but it's origins are derived from 4 foot wood.

This is what cord wood looks like,


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## CRThomas (Feb 9, 2012)

*Info*

Let me put a little info in here no matter how you do it some body will find some thing wrong with it. I do only bundled fire wood I make very comfortable living. I have told I will go broke after 30 years I'm still here. I put to many sticks in my bundle or not enough. I sell it to cheap or to high. I'm cheating my customers or there cheating me. I buy to new of equipment or I'm buying junk. I buy stuff I don't need or I am not buying enough. When I sold bulk people want to know why I didn't sell cord. I said my customers don't want a cord they want a rank. I was told I wouldn't sell to them. Like I said your wrong wrong wrong. Have own Ford, Chevys, Dodges, I buy where I get the best deal. I'm wrong I should have bought a xxxxxxx with a xxxxxx and not a xxxxxx. Later


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## Jonesy11 (Feb 9, 2012)

a cord is whatever mass it takes to fill a 128 cubic foot void. A cord is a volume of measure not a straight line measure or a said poundage. wood that is cut split and stacked will fill that void much tighter than logs cut on site. 

If people are buying wood from you, great! If they are happy and return for more wood, great. 

Just saying you could tell a blind man that the sky was green and he would have to believe you because he wouldn't know for himself, much like most homeowners buying a cord of wood.


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## trees2 (Feb 12, 2012)

*In regards to charging for a full cord of 12' cut and split firewood.*

It requires 25% more work no matter how you do it. Therefore you should charge 25-30 % more money per full cord=128 cubic feet stacked.Thats alot more splits ! As far as the wood bulk loaded into the truck , that can vary.In Rhode Island , I give 190 cu ft of 16" bulk loaded. Good luck and MAKE SURE you CHARGE for your hard work.


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## Philbert (Feb 12, 2012)

trees2 said:


> *In regards to charging for a full cord of 12' cut and split firewood.* It requires 25% more work no matter how you do it.



Welcome to A.S. trees2!

I am assuming that you meant 12 _inch_ firewood. Took me a few seconds. If you are splitting 12 _foot_ firewood, I want to see a video of that!

Philbert


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## trees2 (Feb 12, 2012)

*12" wood, Sorry,*

Sorry my oops, but we do split long large wood for furnace wood and customers.


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## tramp bushler (Mar 19, 2012)

Dozer Man said:


> I'm definately not trying to sidetrack this thread. I saw this thread come up and thought it a good place to ask this question. I have no problem using CORD as a standard of meas. for selling wood. My question is still how to charge for a cord of wood...3/3 vs. 4/4??? One has roughly 30% more labor. Just remember every area has different accordingly's to go by. (rick,rank,facecord...). If anybody knows of a "standard" for Indiana I would like to know.
> 
> Thanks AS




I don't have any idea about down south and its laws . But first and formost you have to make a living .. . Depending on wether u do your bucking and spliting by hand or with a processor . . It really doesn't matter . Just faster with a processor . 
When I have to do custom lengths I usually figure out the time involved . Since I usually average all things considered 40-65$ an hour that gets tacked on . .


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## tramp bushler (Mar 19, 2012)

M-tooth said:


> When you talk with old timers around here and you say cord they are going to think you are talking about 4 foot pulp wood. The word cord has been mangled and adapted to describe many things but it's origins are derived from 4 foot wood.
> 
> This is what cord wood looks like,



Finally !! Someone understands . 

When someone says a cord of wood HASto be 
split to equal a cord


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 20, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Finally !! Someone understands .
> 
> When someone says a cord of wood HASto be
> split to equal a cord



Care to quote anyone or any post that said that?

Harry K


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## tramp bushler (Mar 21, 2012)

Dozer Man said:


> Not trying to argue, but what you've described is exactly the reason I think this thread was started. You give no dimensions of your trailer or your "rick" for discussion. Also, are you talking about processed or unprocessed firewood? By definition, isn't a "cord" of firewood..._128cu.ft. of split, tightly stacked wood_??



Hows that for ya . You must work in an office . . 

I'm not picking on Dozer Man . But a cord is a pile of wood that has an area great enough to give a total volume of 128 cubic feet . So heres a question 
Would a log 8' dia.x8' long egual 1 cord . Assuming it is all wood not just a shell.


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## tramp bushler (Mar 21, 2012)

So heres a 2 cord load





I sold it this evening to a customer who has bought more than 30 cord from me in the past 2 winters . 
He's happy . I'm happy . The customer likes what they pay for . It keeps me too busy .


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## Steve NW WI (Mar 21, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Hows that for ya . You must work in an office . .
> 
> I'm not picking on Dozer Man . But a cord is a pile of wood that has an area great enough to give a total volume of 128 cubic feet . So heres a question
> Would a log 8' dia.x8' long egual 1 cord . Assuming it is all wood not just a shell.



No - volume = pi x r squared x h

3.14 x (4x4) x 8 = 401 cu ft. If I buy one of those as a cord, I'm getting a heck of a deal.


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## jrider (Mar 21, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> So heres a 2 cord load
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do you get for a load like that?


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## tramp bushler (Mar 21, 2012)

Because this went to a large volume long term boiler customer , he gets a deal .360$ sawn into thirds . Roughly 32" any of the bigger stuff over 16" diameter I saw split to make it easier for him to load the boiler . For newer customers sawing it 16" its 460$


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 21, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Hows that for ya . You must work in an office . .
> 
> I'm not picking on Dozer Man . But a cord is a pile of wood that has an area great enough to give a total volume of 128 cubic feet . So heres a question
> Would a log 8' dia.x8' long egual 1 cord . Assuming it is all wood not just a shell.



Ya found one! Unfortunately, he is wrong in that NO legal definition says anything at all about "split". All have a variation of the "tightly ranked" or "tightly piled', or vaiations of it.

Further there is not one legal definition out there that says anything at all about how long it needs to be cut.

Yes, 'cordwood' used to be commonly cut and sold in 4' lenghts. That made it convenient to feed the old wood fired steam engines. At the same time it was also sold a 'cords' cut to shorter length.

Comes back to the cord being an industry standard that anyone who cares to look it up will know exactly what it is, namely 128cu ft of firewood. 

The sooner all those fake, face, bush, load, pile, stack, shirtpocket, beaver mouthfuls, etc measurements die, the better off the industry will be.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 21, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> No - volume = pi x r squared x h
> 
> 3.14 x (4x4) x 8 = 401 cu ft. If I buy one of those as a cord, I'm getting a heck of a deal.



Yep, and after splitting it is going to be around 3 1/2 cords or more.

Harry K


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## tramp bushler (Mar 21, 2012)

I agree . 
Seems everyone who starts getting serious about selling wood figures out what a cord is . After a while they figure out how to market thier product . Then they start to think about how to 
make money doing it . .

A guy needs to start with an honest measurement then increase their price while staying honest . 

I'm almost suprised there are laws about selling firewood down south. 
Just another reason I havn't been there for 30 years.


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## Philbert (Mar 21, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> 'm almost suprised there are laws about selling firewood down south.
> Just another reason I havn't been there for 30 years.



From you photo, it looks like you might be surprised about the laws we have regarding weight limits and securing your load as well!

Philbert


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## tramp bushler (Mar 21, 2012)

Well ya'll please keep them down there . . :msp_thumbdn:
we don't have too too many laws here. But we do have toomany . 

It's funny that in a place with few laws people from south complain about some of the few we do have . . .

But up here , uf someone will work hard they can move forward


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## tramp bushler (Mar 21, 2012)

The view coming home tired with a load on . I think late winter is the best time of year . .

From north ( left) to south . Mt Sanford , Mt Drum, Mt. Wrangel . Mt Blackburn is to the south out of the pic .


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## Dozer Man (Mar 21, 2012)

*A cord is a cord is a cord is a cord....*



tramp bushler said:


> Hows that for ya . You must work in an office . .
> 
> I'm not picking on Dozer Man . But a cord is a pile of wood that has an area great enough to give a total volume of 128 cubic feet . So heres a question
> Would a log 8' dia.x8' long egual 1 cord . Assuming it is all wood not just a shell.



No need to defend myself...I was just repeating something I read in AS somewhere.

About the 8x8 log.....What about a 4' dia. x 8' long log? It would fit in the "4x4x8" jig perfectly, but if would only produce an actual volume of 100.48 cu. ft. of wood. Well, until you cut it into 16" lengths and split it into pieces of firewood and stack them into 3 - 4'x8' "1/3 cords"........Anybody care to guess how that would fill out the 4x4x8 jig after cut and split???? Just curious.


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## M-tooth (Mar 22, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Because this went to a large volume long term boiler customer , he gets a deal .360$ sawn into thirds . Roughly 32" any of the bigger stuff over 16" diameter I saw split to make it easier for him to load the boiler . For newer customers sawing it 16" its 460$



$460 for two cord of softwood? As you probably know, we in the Northeast wouldn't even take that $hit for free!


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## Fredward (Mar 22, 2012)

In N.Z the only way you can sell fire wood is per cubic metre, and this measurement is taken when the wood is thrown not stacked.

I'm glad this is how we do it after reading about cords!

Great pictures above, gotta love winter when the sun is shining and you have ranges like that to look at


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 22, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> The view coming home tired with a load on . I think late winter is the best time of year . .
> 
> From north ( left) to south . Mt Sanford , Mt Drum, Mt. Wrangel . Mt Blackburn is to the south out of the pic .



Beautiful. I spent most of 55 and 56 up there, mostly on Shemya and St. Lawrence. Saw a lot of Alaska from Fairbanks, Anchorage, Nome and all the little villages inbetween riding the Wien, Reeves, etc. just trying to get to duty stations.
Wonderful country. 

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 22, 2012)

Dozer Man said:


> No need to defend myself...I was just repeating something I read in AS somewhere.
> 
> About the 8x8 log.....What about a 4' dia. x 8' long log? It would fit in the "4x4x8" jig perfectly, but if would only produce an actual volume of 100.48 cu. ft. of wood. Well, until you cut it into 16" lengths and split it into pieces of firewood and stack them into 3 - 4'x8' "1/3 cords"........Anybody care to guess how that would fill out the 4x4x8 jig after cut and split???? Just curious.



It wouldn't fit and the smaller you split it the more overage you will have.

Harry K


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## tramp bushler (Mar 22, 2012)

Dozer Man said:


> No need to defend myself...I was just repeating something I read in AS somewhere.
> 
> About the 8x8 log.....What about a 4' dia. x 8' long log? It would fit in the "4x4x8" jig perfectly, but if would only produce an actual volume of 100.48 cu. ft. of wood. Well, until you cut it into 16" lengths and split it into pieces of firewood and stack them into 3 - 4'x8' "1/3 cords"........Anybody care to guess how that would fill out the 4x4x8 jig after cut and split???? Just curious.



Ya I screwed up there . Too tired . . It woyld probably come out to around a cord . But I'm not much at math. 

Anyone know the math .


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## tramp bushler (Mar 22, 2012)

Harry . There was still most all the bark on this country back then . 
I got home in 78 . Flew in to Kodiak on Wien . I went in the USCG to get here . When I got out in 82 I stayed . I've been almost everywhere in the state . Still have a few things to see . The Chain is sure a different kind of place .


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 22, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Harry . There was still most all the bark on this country back then .
> I got home in 78 . Flew in to Kodiak on Wien . I went in the USCG to get here . When I got out in 82 I stayed . I've been almost everywhere in the state . Still have a few things to see . The Chain is sure a different kind of place .



Transport back then was on wild and wooly side. I guess we got hardened to it. I cam off St.Lawrence Isle in spring '57 and got stranded in Nome waiting for a flight out. They were closing the air station there at the time and the rations were WWII Crats. Got old after the 1st week and very old after that. Each day tromp down to the ops shack and ask about flight out. "nothing today" was the usual. Got there one monring and a C124 was entereing the pattern with one fan out. Turned final and lost anohter fan. touched down on the ice covered runwayi and wiped out the side marker lights on the runway by going mostly sideways. True story. Stepped in and asked "Yes, that 124 should be going back this afternoon". "PUT ME ON IT!"

Never did understand how they stayed in the air, I swear one could walk faster than they flew...at least it seemed that way when riding one.

Harry K.


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## tramp bushler (Mar 23, 2012)

Well , on the bright side , you could have been eating mukluk . 

Travel out west is pretty tough .


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 23, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Well , on the bright side , you could have been eating mukluk .
> 
> Travel out west is pretty tough .



Tried it once at Gambel. It's one of those things that need to be left off the bucket list.

Harry K


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## tramp bushler (Mar 24, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> Tried it once at Gambel. It's one of those things that need to be left off the bucket list.
> 
> Harry K


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## Cantdog (Jun 10, 2012)

Well I just read the whole thread from start to finish......there is a very important factor to the measurement of wood that no one has touched on or perhaps articulated properly. I realize that other parts of the country have various and somtimes dubious terms for volumes of wood. The closest anyone has come in this thread is John's post #23 but he did not follow up with further explanation.
First I think most of us would agree that a cord of wood (or fraction thereof) is the only real and legal measure of wood and is defined as 4' X 4' X 8'........or 128cuft...right??? OK are we all on the same page?? Now while this is true it only applies to round wood that is cut 4' long and stacked 4' high and 8' long. Remember this measurement is the sum of many averages figured in by the inventers of this measurement unit. Scaling wood is always and average at best and the honest scaler will be very aware of the fluctuations of judgement and measure to the plus and minus of that average line and keep it as close as possible to even. But back to the 1 cord measure....the reason that this measure only pertains to round wood 4' long is that once cut to lenght, split and restacked firewood will without exception take up less space than 128 cuft. It will drop down to 96-98 cuft from 128cuft when processed into 16"...12" it drops even lower to around 92 cut and stacked. However if you cut the wood to 24" split and restack that size will come back up in volume to around 108-110 cuft. ........I can hear you guys hissing from here LOL!! Don't believe me..... do it yourself....it's just the way it is. Start with a 4' x 4' X8' pile of round wood and process it restack and see if these figures aren't with +- 5%. Again these are averages of scale and will vary slightly depending the varibales of size and straightness/ knots etc. of the round wood started with. There are also accepted volumes of thrown in a pile processed wood as John said again the volume measure will vary as to the length the 4' wood is split and cut to. His figures are corect but I will add that 24" fit and split comes in at around 220 cuft thrown in a pile.

Though I really like Tramps pics of Alaska his load is no closer to 2 cord than I am to Alaska. Though his length is 8' and the height is probably close to 4' at the headboard it tapers badly toward the rear so I would probably scale that at more like 1.5 cord at best. I've been scaling saw logs, loads of pulp at the mill, and firewood on trucks for yrs. This is not my opinion... as I said do it yourself if you doubt my figures and get back to me if you find me wrong.


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## tramp bushler (Jun 10, 2012)

*don't act like a Maineac*

Top of the gloves on top of the front stakes is 4'8" . . can you see the gloves. . . 

the rear stakes are 3'3" tall. 

Can't dog is a good handle for you. 
I know this load is 2 cord. I hope where u are is as close as you get to Alaska. 

What a thing to read first thing on a sunday morning.


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## CRThomas (Jun 10, 2012)

*Answer*



Cantdog said:


> Well I just read the whole thread from start to finish......there is a very important factor to the measurement of wood that no one has touched on or perhaps articulated properly. I realize that other parts of the country have various and somtimes dubious terms for volumes of wood. The closest anyone has come in this thread is John's post #23 but he did not follow up with further explanation.
> First I think most of us would agree that a cord of wood (or fraction thereof) is the only real and legal measure of wood and is defined as 4' X 4' X 8'........or 128cuft...right??? OK are we all on the same page?? Now while this is true it only applies to round wood that is cut 4' long and stacked 4' high and 8' long. Remember this measurement is the sum of many averages figured in by the inventers of this measurement unit. Scaling wood is always and average at best and the honest scaler will be very aware of the fluctuations of judgement and measure to the plus and minus of that average line and keep it as close as possible to even. But back to the 1 cord measure....the reason that this measure only pertains to round wood 4' long is that once cut to lenght, split and restacked firewood will without exception take up less space than 128 cuft. will drop down to 96-98 cuft from 128cuft when processed into 16"...12" it drops even lower to around 92 cut and stacked. However if you cut the wood to 24" split and restack that size will come back up in volume to around 108-110 cuft. ........I can hear you guys hissing from here LOL!! Don't believe me..... do it yourself....it's just the way it is. Start with a 4' x 4' X8' pile of round wood and process it restack and see if these figures aren't with +- 5%. Again these are averages of scale and will vary slightly depending the varibales of size and straightness/ knots etc. of the round wood started with. There are also accepted volumes of thrown in a pile processed wood as John said again the volume measure will vary as to the length the 4' wood is split and cut to. His figures are corect but I will add that 24" fit and split comes in at around 220 cuft thrown in a pile.
> 
> 
> ...


Around my area a rank is suppose to be a third of a cord 16 inchs by 4 ft by 8 ft but now customers ask for 20 inch by 4 ft by 8 ft to be a rank this is another reason I do now sell bulk firewood . They say fireplace hold 20 inchs long so it must be 20 inchs long to be a rank. Right or wrong call some body else for wood I'll stay with bundled firewood.


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## tramp bushler (Jun 10, 2012)

I think bndled wood would be good. I have too limited a market


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## turnkey4099 (Jun 11, 2012)

Cantdog said:


> Well I just read the whole thread from start to finish......there is a very important factor to the measurement of wood that no one has touched on or perhaps articulated properly. I realize that other parts of the country have various and somtimes dubious terms for volumes of wood. The closest anyone has come in this thread is John's post #23 but he did not follow up with further explanation.
> First I think most of us would agree that a cord of wood (or fraction thereof) is the only real and legal measure of wood and is defined as 4' X 4' X 8'........or 128cuft...right??? OK are we all on the same page?? Now while this is true it only applies to round wood that is cut 4' long and stacked 4' high and 8' long. Remember this measurement is the sum of many averages figured in by the inventers of this measurement unit. Scaling wood is always and average at best and the honest scaler will be very aware of the fluctuations of judgement and measure to the plus and minus of that average line and keep it as close as possible to even. But back to the 1 cord measure....the reason that this measure only pertains to round wood 4' long is that once cut to lenght, split and restacked firewood will without exception take up less space than 128 cuft. It will drop down to 96-98 cuft from 128cuft when processed into 16"...12" it drops even lower to around 92 cut and stacked. However if you cut the wood to 24" split and restack that size will come back up in volume to around 108-110 cuft. ........I can hear you guys hissing from here LOL!! Don't believe me..... do it yourself....it's just the way it is. Start with a 4' x 4' X8' pile of round wood and process it restack and see if these figures aren't with +- 5%. Again these are averages of scale and will vary slightly depending the varibales of size and straightness/ knots etc. of the round wood started with. There are also accepted volumes of thrown in a pile processed wood as John said again the volume measure will vary as to the length the 4' wood is split and cut to. His figures are corect but I will add that 24" fit and split comes in at around 220 cuft thrown in a pile.
> 
> Though I really like Tramps pics of Alaska his load is no closer to 2 cord than I am to Alaska. Though his length is 8' and the height is probably close to 4' at the headboard it tapers badly toward the rear so I would probably scale that at more like 1.5 cord at best. I've been scaling saw logs, loads of pulp at the mill, and firewood on trucks for yrs. This is not my opinion... as I said do it yourself if you doubt my figures and get back to me if you find me wrong.




The legal definition of a cord does _not_ say it has to be cut 4' long and left in the round.
That is from the way early days of big fireplaces and steam engines. If it applied back then (I doubt it), it for sure does not now. 

The only way bucked, split and piled 4' long 'round wood' comes up to less space than you started with is if the logs are _EXTREMELY_ crooked to begin with. There have been way more discussions on the subject that should be necessary as several experiments have been run proving that split/stacked wood "swells" the volumn. Several table top expiraments have aslo been listed that anyone can do on their table top and prove it to themselves.

I've been cutting, stacking, etc firewood at 10+ cord for over 30 years and know that no matter how you try you can't split a round and get it into a smaller space than nature made to start with...in fact you can't even get it into the _same_ space unless you reassemble it into the original round.

Harry K


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## CRThomas (Jun 11, 2012)

*Info*

You will find in the firewood business as any business some body will change the out look on size and price. Man at the cafe told me he would not buy gravel from me because I charge to much. Problem is I don't sell gravel so see. Later fellows


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## Cantdog (Jun 11, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> The legal definition of a cord does _not_ say it has to be cut 4' long and left in the round.
> That is from the way early days of big fireplaces and steam engines. If it applied back then (I doubt it), it for sure does not now.
> 
> The only way bucked, split and piled 4' long 'round wood' comes up to less space than you started with is if the logs are _EXTREMELY_ crooked to begin with. There have been way more discussions on the subject that should be necessary as several experiments have been run proving that split/stacked wood "swells" the volumn. Several table top expiraments have aslo been listed that anyone can do on their table top and prove it to themselves.
> ...



Not in the state of Maine........there is only one legal term for a cord of wood and it is exactly as I described. It is formulated this way as it it the starting point for all wood measurement and legal scale. 4' X 4" X 8' round wood is the legal term for one cord of wood in the "Pine Tree Sate" as I stated early in my post other areas have different and sometimes dubious measruring units. Other than that you are dead wrong in everything else you said. Sorry no offense meant but wood does NOT "swell" when processed......if yours does the I'd be selling firewood for a living if I were you...cause you got some thing magical going on there.

Lad...while you were stacking your 300 cord of firewood over the last 30 yrs.....I have been operating a commercial sawmill business...as well as selectively harvesting and legally scaling saw, vineer, pulp and firewood in anywhere from tree length to fit and split...to the tune of over 200,000 BFT per yr... or measured in cords roughly 440,000 cords per year.......for the last 30 yrs......this wood is bought AND sold comercially and internationally....so when I tell you what cord amounts to I aint making it up or blowing smoke to suit my ideas of how to measure wood in a pile. As my dad used to say of the old lady fox talking to the pup "Don't try to tell your granny how to suck eggs, son"

But as I said earlier do it yourself.....accurately stack a cord of round wood cut to 4'...fit it 16"...split it the way you like your wood..restack it an a measurable pile...don't go nuts trying to puzzel it together, just stackit tight and normal and see for yourself if your processed pile does not measure between 96 and 98 cubic feet.....this is not my opinion or something I dreamed up while stacking my 10 cord of firewood each yr..not only is it the rule it is also the law here.


One of my favorite sayings tells of an old timer selling a cord of wood and when quizzed on it's true measure he sat down and filled his pipe and simply said "it a cord of wood I'd buy or sell"...now that's an honest reply...Oh... and just because many people discuss an issue....does not mean they all know what they are talking about...as we've seen......


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## Laroo (Jun 11, 2012)

Cord (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A cord is a volume,same as a gallon (wet) or a cup of flour ( dry ). A gallon of gas is a gallon of gas, it doesn't matter if its in a gas can or 15 dixie cups. I'm at a loss as to why all the arguing.
:msp_confused:


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## Cantdog (Jun 11, 2012)

Laroo said:


> Cord (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> A cord is a volume,same as a gallon (wet) or a cup of flour ( dry ). A gallon of gas is a gallon of gas, it doesn't matter if its in a gas can or 15 dixie cups. I'm at a loss as to why all the arguing.
> :msp_confused:



There is no arguing....the question asked was how measure wood...I answered the question with real legal and accepted procedure. The State of Maine conmmisioned the University of Maine, back in the 80's to define the legal perameters of a cord of wood sold. The benchmark was, as always, a cord of 4' round wood stacked 4' tall and 8' long. From there they did repeated testing to find the averge volumes of firewood cut to different lenghts and split and restacked to find the volumes of not only stacked wood but also thrown in a pile wood for these lengths...The numbers that Jypo stated for heaped wood are accurate too. The measure of a cord is done way I decsribed and it was formulated as a specific set of averages. Wood does not come in a good stackable form such as say 8" X 8" timber there are holes in the stack, different sizes, not so straight... tapered etc. And yes a cord is a volumetric measurement but the reason that round was selected as the benchmark was that not all cord wood goes into firewood so there had to be an average set. Your water analogy is correct as far as it goes...however you take that same gallon and cool it to 33 degrees F is your gallon the same size now? Heat it to 210 degrees F...how's your gallon bucket doing now?? Should of started with a 5 quart pail..yes?? Or, perhaps you would like to try and fit the 15 dixi cups in the same space as the complete gallon took up. You see what I'm saying? You haven't added or subtracted any water but you have changed the volume that it requires. Just the very fact that when you fit a measured cord of wood into 16" lengths with a chainsaw you have removed exactly the equivilent of a 4'X8' sheet of 3/4" plywood in sawdust and every thing you do to that wood decreases the volume that it will require....it doesn't reduce the amount of wood (other than the aforementioned sawdust) but you do change the amount of space it requires to be stored. I am sorry if some find this irritating...it is not my fault nor did I come up with the rules...many, many years ago they came up with the baseline of how to measure wood and this is it. I just trying to correctly answer the question to those who want to know the real answer.


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## Rockland Farm (Jun 11, 2012)

I normally agree with most things Cantdog and Turnkey post . And I can see how they both come to their conclusions on how to measure wood . The old find a round that just fits in a 5 gallon bucket and then split it and see still fits (it won't ) seems to show split would takes up more space . However Cantdogs post has merit and I won't and can't dispute it . I think the problem is in measuring wood for firewood and measuring it for other uses . I seem to have two types of firewood customers . The type that is blissfully ignorant of how to measure a cord and the type that go on the internet and see that a cord is 128 cubic feet or 4'x4'x8' and they darn well better get that . So because 128 cubic feet is the standard for firewood in my neck of the woods that is what they will continue to get . I don't want the angry phone call about it being only 98 cubic feet . And if I ever move to a area that measures wood in ricks or ranks or what ever , I will sell it in the locally accepted measure . I would probably sell more than if I tried to convince them to change after years and years of doing it their way .


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## tramp bushler (Jun 11, 2012)

well this most recient dust up was when cant called me a long thumber. 

He had no basis or real knowledge. But decided to start some crap. 
So since he hasn't apologized for calling me a lyer the only thing I can do is ignore him and find him. .


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## Cantdog (Jun 11, 2012)

Rockland Farm said:


> I normally agree with most things Cantdog and Turnkey post . And I can see how they both come to their conclusions on how to measure wood . The old find a round that just fits in a 5 gallon bucket and then split it and see still fits (it won't ) seems to show split would takes up more space . However Cantdogs post has merit and I won't and can't dispute it . I think the problem is in measuring wood for firewood and measuring it for other uses . I seem to have two types of firewood customers . The type that is blissfully ignorant of how to measure a cord and the type that go on the internet and see that a cord is 128 cubic feet or 4'x4'x8' and they darn well better get that . So because 128 cubic feet is the standard for firewood in my neck of the woods that is what they will continue to get . I don't want the angry phone call about it being only 98 cubic feet . And if I ever move to a area that measures wood in ricks or ranks or what ever , I will sell it in the locally accepted measure . I would probably sell more than if I tried to convince them to change after years and years of doing it their way .



As I said earlier the method of legal measure and scale in the State of Maine is not something I made up..it's the law as far as commercialy selling firewood. Your analogy of the 5 gallon bucket is absolutely correct it won't fit back in the bucket. However the point missed is the relationship that round of wood has to the rest of the rounds in the pile it is in. There is a lot of unused space in a 1 cord pile of round wood. That space gets filled in when the splitwood is stacked. though there more spaces they are much smaller and that is the reason for a stacked pile of split wood not measuring 128cuft. I have also said over and over anyone is more than welcome to do their own test if you are in doubt. All you need is a cord of 4' round wood, a saw and splitter and a tape measure. This is also why the real honest old timers selling firewood up here used to always pile a 9' cord, so when it was fit, split and stacked it would stack a 128cuft cord more or less. Which is , if I am reading this right, basically the way you sell your firewood Which is also fine if that works for you. When heating oil got so expensive and folks here started burning more wood there were so many firewood sellers that were shorting their customers that the state had to come up with a standard method of measuring what a cord of wood amounted to in the many various way of delivering it so the university studied it extensively and came up with these figures..not me....to protect buyers from getting to little wood... not for getting to much...


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## Cantdog (Jun 11, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> well this most recient dust up was when cant called me a long thumber.
> 
> He had no basis or real knowledge. But decided to start some crap.
> So since he hasn't apologized for calling me a lyer the only thing I can do is ignore him and find him. .



As Denis Cahoon would say hahahahahahahahah!!!


BTW I did not call you a liar....I said you didn't have 2 cord on that truck....no lie...


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## turnkey4099 (Jun 11, 2012)

Cantdog said:


> Not in the state of Maine........there is only one legal term for a cord of wood and it is exactly as I described. It is formulated this way as it it the starting point for all wood measurement and legal scale. 4' X 4" X 8' round wood is the legal term for one cord of wood in the "Pine Tree Sate" as I stated early in my post other areas have different and sometimes dubious measruring units. Other than that you are dead wrong in everything else you said. Sorry no offense meant but wood does NOT "swell" when processed......if yours does the I'd be selling firewood for a living if I were you...cause you got some thing magical going on there.
> 
> Lad...while you were stacking your 300 cord of firewood over the last 30 yrs.....I have been operating a commercial sawmill business...as well as selectively harvesting and legally scaling saw, vineer, pulp and firewood in anywhere from tree length to fit and split...to the tune of over 200,000 BFT per yr... or measured in cords roughly 440,000 cords per year.......for the last 30 yrs......this wood is bought AND sold comercially and internationally....so when I tell you what cord amounts to I aint making it up or blowing smoke to suit my ideas of how to measure wood in a pile. As my dad used to say of the old lady fox talking to the pup "Don't try to tell your granny how to suck eggs, son"
> 
> ...



I am having zero success finding the Maine definition of a cord. Do you have a cite for it...one from the weights and measures standards?

As to splitting stacking, you obvisouely have never made an accurate test of it. Here is simple one you can do while watching TV.

Takes a couple nicely tapered carrots and slice into rounds - you will have a nice assortment of sizes. now take a box top or any other container you care for and fill it up with a single laiy or those rounds. Dump any rounds you have left over.

Now dump out and cut each of the remaining rounds in half. 

Try to get them all back in the container.

Be ready for a shock.

It ain't what you know that hurts, it's what you know that ain't so that bites you.

Found it. What fun trying that on a slow download (640k on a good day).

----------------------------------------------------------

As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following words and phrases shall have the following meanings: [1973, c. 91, §1 (RPR).]
1. Cord;
A. A standard cord is a unit of measure of wood products 4 feet wide, 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, containing 128 cubic feet when the wood is ranked and well stowed. Any voids that will accommodate a stick, log or bolt of average dimensions to those in that pile shall be deducted from the measured volume. [1979, c. 659, §1 (RPR).]

Note the "or bolt" in above. Nothing in this section says "4 feet long rounds"

Also note that this is the official definition from the "definitions" section of the code, following items add a bit to it. 


A-1. A cord when used in connection with sawdust, chips or shavings means the volume of material contained in 128 cubic feet at the time of sale. [1979, c. 659, §2 (NEW).]
A-2. Fuel wood, when sold loose and not ranked and well stowed, shall be sold by the cubic foot or loose cord, unless other arrangements are made between the buyer and seller. When sold by the loose cord, the wood in any cord shall average either 12 inches, 16 inches or 24 inches in length. When so sold, the volume of the cords shall be: A cord of 12 or 16 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 180 cubic feet; and a cord of wood 24 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 195 cubic feet. [1981, c. 219, (AMD).]
B. A face cord is a unit of measure 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, containing 32 square feet. The length of sticks shall be agreed upon by both parties; [1973, c. 91, §1 (RPR).]

10. Standard cord. A "standard cord" means the cubic foot measurement of 4 foot long wood, ranked and well stowed, and stacked 4 feet wide, 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, which stack measure contains 128 cubic feet of wood, bark and air space. A "standard cord" when used in connection with sawdust chips, bark or shavings means the volume contained in 128 cubic feet at the time of sale.

Note the "or its equivalent" and also nothing mentioned about "round"

1. Cubic measure and standard cord. In all wood transactions the volume of wood may be measured in cubic feet or by the standard cord as provided for by the state sealer.
[ 1983, c. 804, §6 (NEW) .]

Bottom line. It repeatedly defines a cord as being well ranked wood amounting t 128 cu ft. 

At the end of the day, everyone knows the definition of a cord, "128 cu ft of well ranked wood"


Harry K


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## Hedgerow (Jun 11, 2012)

Cantdog said:


> As I said earlier the method of legal measure and scale in the State of Maine is not something I made up..it's the law as far as commercialy selling firewood. Your analogy of the 5 gallon bucket is absolutely correct it won't fit back in the bucket. However the point missed is the relationship that round of wood has to the rest of the rounds in the pile it is in. There is a lot of unused space in a 1 cord pile of round wood. That space gets filled in when the splitwood is stacked. though there more spaces they are much smaller and that is the reason for a stacked pile of split wood not measuring 128cuft. I have also said over and over anyone is more than welcome to do their own test if you are in doubt. All you need is a cord of 4' round wood, a saw and splitter and a tape measure. This is also why the real honest old timers selling firewood up here used to always pile a 9' cord, so when it was fit, split and stacked it would stack a 128cuft cord more or less. Which is , if I am reading this right, basically the way you sell your firewood Which is also fine if that works for you. When heating oil got so expensive and folks here started burning more wood there were so many firewood sellers that were shorting their customers that the state had to come up with a standard method of measuring what a cord of wood amounted to in the many various way of delivering it so the university studied it extensively and came up with these figures..not me....to protect buyers from getting to little wood... not for getting to much...



Well there's the problem buddeh... Everybody knows the folks in Maine drink too much...:msp_sneaky:
:big_smile:


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## Cantdog (Jun 11, 2012)

Loose thrown cord, State of Maine ; Chapter 382;Section 6 (I)

They brought the firewood to the farmstead, then cut the cordwood and split to stove wood length. They restacked the wood into smaller lengths of wood that would fit together tight. So the pile was now smaller than the original size pile. The result was shrinkage. A cord cut into sixteen inch lengths would shrink by 15 percent. Twelve inch lengths would shrink by as much as 25 percent.

Using this loose measure formular below , ( i.e 12"-16";180 cu ft or 20"-24";195 cu ft) will not re-stack to a full cord (128 cu ft). This rule was originally from commencing from a stacked pile (4'x4'x8')of round logs. Once processed into 12" or 16" split pieces, and thrown loose in a container , it would occupy a space of about 180 cu ft. Acording to the University of Maine, If you take this same pile and re-stack it (this 180 cu ft loose thown pile) , it would re-stack between 100 cu ft - 107 cu ft. and the 195 cu ft pile (i.e 20" or 24") would re-stack in a space of 110 to 113 cu ft. This is what is refered to as (shrinkage factor). Therefore, If you are a consumer, and the dealer offers you firewood, using this loose thrown measure formular, expect to be short change of volumn as much as < 20% or as much as 18 - 25 cu ft. And if you are paying $ 200.00 for this loose thrown measurement (which is alittle over 3/4 of a cord), You are actually paying $256.00 per cord (128 cu ft). This loose thrown measurement formular is only excepted in the State of Maine for the sale of firewood , furthermore, it is illegal to convert from one system of measurement to another for the basis of payment.

Here you go...these numbers are a little different than I was using but not anyway near the 128 cuft measure. But you get my point.....as I said do it yourself but don't use carrots...


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## Cantdog (Jun 11, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Well there's the problem buddeh... Everybody knows the folks in Maine drink too much...:msp_sneaky:
> :big_smile:



That may be it!!LOL!!!


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## CRThomas (Jun 11, 2012)

*Info*

When I sold buck firewood in a city very few customers have room for a cord so we don't use a cord measurement. So around my area it's a pickup truck load or a rank 4ft by 16 inch by 8ft. Camp ground firewood is as long as you can get in your splitter. Which some times ends up well over a rank 4 ft by 23 inch by 8 ft. Later


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## Steve NW WI (Jun 12, 2012)

Well, since we're probably gonna argue about this till the snow flies again, I'll post up what the state of MN has to say. Remember former Gov. Ventura's semi-famous quote about St Paul's street system being laid out by drunken Irishmen? I think they were working on the cord law over a few drinks as well.



> How is firewood measured?
> Firewood may be measured by the cubic foot, the cubic
> meter, or the cord. If measured by the foot or meter, the
> wood is first stacked with all pieces placed parallel to
> ...



The above comes from this PDF: http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/BuyingFirewood.pdf

Note the last paragraph. It's legal to sell wood by the rickshaw load if you want, but if selling by the cord, cu ft, or cu mtr, you'd better be accurate.

My stubborn mind believes in a full cord of firewood at 128 cu ft of split and stacked wood. Any I sell will go as such. I'm also aware that a 10 cord load of pulpwood ain't gonna come out to 10 cords of firewood, due to crooked pieces that cause more air space in the load, and I'm fine with that as well.


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## turnkey4099 (Jun 12, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Well, since we're probably gonna argue about this till the snow flies again, I'll post up what the state of MN has to say. Remember former Gov. Ventura's semi-famous quote about St Paul's street system being laid out by drunken Irishmen? I think they were working on the cord law over a few drinks as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, too much drink to get to a 110 or 120 cu ft cord. I suspect none of them ever stacked wood.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Jun 12, 2012)

Cantdog said:


> Loose thrown cord, State of Maine ; Chapter 382;Section 6 (I)
> 
> They brought the firewood to the farmstead, then cut the cordwood and split to stove wood length. They restacked the wood into smaller lengths of wood that would fit together tight. So the pile was now smaller than the original size pile. The result was shrinkage. A cord cut into sixteen inch lengths would shrink by 15 percent. Twelve inch lengths would shrink by as much as 25 percent.
> 
> ...



Try that slicing up carrots thing yet?

Harry K


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## greendohn (Jun 15, 2012)

"aint a cord jest a coupla' ricks thrown in yer truck?" :jester:


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## chucker (Jun 15, 2012)

:msp_smile: yep ifin thats watyur a payin mi fer... :msp_thumbsup: lol


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## l3lue (Jun 16, 2012)

So is this a cord of wood ? ,:hmm3grin2orange: 16' long, 7' high, and 24" wide







This is what I call a cord of wood for my own use :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## tramp bushler (Jun 16, 2012)

looks real good.


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## ShaneLogs (Jun 19, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> looks real good.



X2 on that, Nice looking stacks!


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## l3lue (Jun 20, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> looks real good.





ShaneLogs said:


> X2 on that, Nice looking stacks!






Thanks guys , all white oak :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## redheadwoodshed (Jul 8, 2012)

*l3lue said:


> Thanks guys , all white oak :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Good looking ricks there I3lue!


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## Blazin (Jul 8, 2012)

*l3lue said:


> So is this a cord of wood ? ,:hmm3grin2orange: 16' long, 7' high, and 24" wide
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The PVC pipe don't count  Nice stack of wood :msp_thumbup:


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## Delaware Devil (Sep 3, 2012)

*In Delaware a true cord of wood is 128 cubic feet tightly stacked.*

Delaware goes by the U.S. Dept of agriculture, weights and measures division. I'll try to post a link and a couple of photos in a bit. In my opinion someone that knowingly shorts people on a deal is a crook. In DE here they look on firewood the same as gasoline at the pump. Don't get caught shorting, it's the same fine.
http://dda.delaware.gov/pressrel/2008/100708_Fuel-Firewood-08.pdf In case that don't work I'll coppy and paste the document
Firewood
The most important thing to remember about firewood sales is that they must be measured in cords. The only
legal method of selling firewood is by the cord. According to Steve Connors, Weights and Measures Section
Administrator, "Firewood has to be sold by the cord. A cord is a volumetric measurement. Nothing else is legal."
Connors said “Many people don’t know what a cord is. Consumers really cannot tell what a cord is unless it is
stacked up and measured.
A cord of wood always measures 128 cubic feet – 128 cubic
feet of compactly stacked wood in a rectangular form. It can be
4’ X 4’ X 8’ (four feet high by four feet wide by eight feet
long). It can be 2’ X 8’ X 8’ (two feet high by eight feet wide
by eight feet long. It just has to stack up to 128 cubic feet.
The wood should be stacked with the pieces parallel to each
other. Wood stacked in a crisscross or log cabin fashion does
not meet the legal definition; and most likely the stack will
contain less wood than one that is stacked by the legal parallel
method.
Regulation prohibits the sale of firewood in unspecified quantities such as " load," "truckload," "face cord,"
"rack," or "pile." If a buyer purchases more than 100 pounds of wood, the seller is required to inform the buyer
about the cord equivalent of the purchase of firewood. Fractions of cords are allowed to be sold when identified
as such.
DDA encourages firewood consumers to follow these guidelines:
• When placing the order, ask how the seller measures the wood and make sure those standards are precise
and accurate.
• Don't assume terms such as truckload, face cord, rack or pile guarantee the amount of firewood is a cord.
• Don't pay for the wood unless it has been stacked and measured.
If you are a first time buyer, ask people you know to recommend sellers with whom they've had positive business
dealings.
• Always get a receipt with the seller's name, address and telephone number, and the price, amount and
kind of wood bought. Write down the license number of the delivery vehicle.
• Take a picture of the stack if you think there is less than a cord.
Don’t burn any wood if you believe you have a problem. Contact the seller first.


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## Rearden (Sep 4, 2012)

Lotta criminals runnin' loose.
Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan get a pass from Obama's DOJ, but the guy who shirted somebody the equivalent of a dollar on a $160 transaction they'll likely hound to the gates of hell. Not condoning the rip off either way, just sayin'... they must've caught all of the real criminals.


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## blk90s13 (Sep 4, 2012)

To answer what a cord of wood is to me.


I sell a my truck full as a cord, 8 ft long mason dump by 7 ft wide and 3 ft high sides and I fill it to the top and then some.


The usual look on a customer's face once I get there is :msp_ohmy: I have to stack all this :bang:


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## Delaware Devil (Sep 4, 2012)

*Not all the crooks are in jail*

They don't bother the man who makes an honest mistake, I think Mark told me they allow 10% under once in a while. It's the fly by nighters who try to tell you that a cord of wood fits in their F150 pick up and it isn't even over the bed. They are the ones they make examples of. Gas stations must be within specs or they shut them down immediately till all pumps are calibrated correctly. An ounce on a gallon don't sound like much, but think about them selling ,many thousands of gallons in a month, and it ads up.


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## ft. churchill (Sep 4, 2012)

Let the buyer beware.... Seen all kinds of hinkey stuff around here as well. Like the "log cabin" cords. This were the cord looks full sized from the outside, but the interior of the stack is hollow or fluffy. Once they dump it (these usually come already stacked in a dump trailer) got their money, they disappear like a rain in a dry wash around here. Seems like alot of the sellers also take people out to a pile of splits on the ground and declare "thats a cord". My eye is not that well calibrated to judge wood in a loose pile.


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## blk90s13 (Sep 4, 2012)

That how a cord I sell look like in the truck


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## Delaware Devil (Sep 4, 2012)

*Dump truck*

You can back that truck into my yard any time. I've got a loader makes it easier to stack than using a wheelbarrow.


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## blk90s13 (Sep 4, 2012)

Delaware Devil said:


> You can back that truck into my yard any time. I've got a loader makes it easier to stack than using a wheelbarrow.





Sure delivery to DE will cost you a lot


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## Delaware Devil (Sep 5, 2012)

*Corded wood*

Lately I've been buying wood at the local Amish Saw mill. They get a lot they can't really use. The crooks, the knots Some really narly stuff, and I get a lot of cut off boards. These guys only do hard wood and make pallets for industrial shipping. Some of the knots really put a strain on my splitter. I think I have enough for this year, now I'm working on next year.


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## Philbert (Sep 6, 2012)

Delaware Devil said:


> Lately I've been buying wood at the local Amish Saw mill. They get a lot they can't really use. The crooks, . . .



I had to read that twice!!! I'm assuming by 'crooks' you are saying that they cannot use pieces of wood that are not straight. _NOT_ that the Amish Saw Mill is dishonest!

Philbert


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## Delaware Devil (Sep 6, 2012)

*Yes the crooked pieces*

Some of them look like pretzels The knots and crooks, not the Amish. No, I like dealing with the Amish people there, They are honest to a fault. Down here not many true Amish anymore. Farming the way it is, they can't afford to live the life. More and more families are reforming and going to the Menonite ways. And the people i deal with are a mix of Amish and Menonite, but they are great.
By the way my name is Mark. I retired from industry a number of years ago and have been driving a school bus for the state since then. I just wish the summers were cooler.


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## danthe (Sep 8, 2012)

A few years back, I was short on wood for the winter so I placed an order for two cord of 16 in split hardwood. The wood dealer delivers with small dumptruck. I paid him the requested price. (200$ back then). When I piled the wood as usual, I ended up with two piles of 16 in x 4 height x 22 feet.

When I when back to the dealer to complain, he told me that locally a 16 in split and stacked firewood equal 21.8 feet at 4 feet high??? I told him in my book a cord was always 16 in x 4 ft x 24 ft.
He responded that I actually purchase a cord ( 8 ft logs x 4 ft leght x 4 ft high) prior to processing and the local industry?? have decided that a cord was 22 ft. So really I was paying for the lost normal compression of small piece incured during processing.

I check with other dealer and all the wood dealer said the same other than two old timer that respected the 24ft lenght.

I never bought wood after this...made sure that I had lots of wood from the woodlot each years.


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## turnkey4099 (Sep 8, 2012)

danthe said:


> A few years back, I was short on wood for the winter so I placed an order for two cord of 16 in split hardwood. The wood dealer delivers with small dumptruck. I paid him the requested price. (200$ back then). When I piled the wood as usual, I ended up with two piles of 16 in x 4 height x 22 feet.
> 
> When I when back to the dealer to complain, he told me that locally a 16 in split and stacked firewood equal 21.8 feet at 4 feet high??? I told him in my book a cord was always 16 in x 4 ft x 24 ft.
> He responded that I actually purchase a cord ( 8 ft logs x 4 ft leght x 4 ft high) prior to processing and the local industry?? have decided that a cord was 22 ft. So really I was paying for the lost normal compression of small piece incured during processing.
> ...



So the local industry are all crooks. His explanation is even BS. 8ft logs 4'x16' will process to well over a cord. Wood expands with cutting/splitting/piling unless one is processing some very crooked logs.

Even so, a cord of wood is defined as split and tightly piles, not what it was in logs.

bottom line - they are all crooks and if your state regulates firewood sales, one call would have ended the scam at least for that dealer.

Harry K


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 9, 2012)

Philbert said:


> This makes sense, and was my first reaction. But what if he wants a full cord cut into 12" pieces instead of 16" pieces. How much would you charge?
> 
> Philbert



I would add about 25% to my normal price because short pieces like that require more cutting and more work. I cut all my big logs 16" to 18" lengths prior to splitting because most customers want at least that length, and they despise short pieces that don't even stack very well.

How on earth do you sell a whole bunch of leftover 4" to 6" pieces cut from 16" to 18" logs?


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## Alan cox (Oct 10, 2012)

*measureing firewood. both agree what the guy is getting and for how much.*



danthe said:


> A few years back, I was short on wood for the winter so I placed an order for two cord of 16 in split hardwood. The wood dealer delivers with small dumptruck. I paid him the requested price. (200$ back then). When I piled the wood as usual, I ended up with two piles of 16 in x 4 height x 22 feet.
> 
> When I when back to the dealer to complain, he told me that locally a 16 in split and stacked firewood equal 21.8 feet at 4 feet high??? I told him in my book a cord was always 16 in x 4 ft x 24 ft.
> He responded that I actually purchase a cord ( 8 ft logs x 4 ft leght x 4 ft high) prior to processing and the local industry?? have decided that a cord was 22 ft. So really I was paying for the lost normal compression of small piece incured during processing.
> ...


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## Alan cox (Oct 10, 2012)

*short pieces*



Wood Doctor said:


> I would add about 25% to my normal price because short pieces like that require more cutting and more work. I cut all my big logs 16" to 18" lengths prior to splitting because most customers want at least that length, and they despise short pieces that don't even stack very well.
> 
> How on earth do you sell a whole bunch of leftover 4" to 6" pieces cut from 16" to 18" logs?



a lot of amish sawmills have a conveyer with a swing arm saw. the belt indexes 16 inches but the wood is thrown on randomly so the saw swings through the wood. it indexes. then swings through again. there are a lot of 16 in pieces but the randomly thrown slabs come with the ends anywhere so there are thousands of anything goes. totally trash wood. dirt. burns like sawdust. impossible to stack. usually tons of dirt all over it because its bark slid through the woods being drug out while it is onthe log. total waste of time. total.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 11, 2012)

*Handling Short Lengths*



Alan cox said:


> a lot of amish sawmills have a conveyer with a swing arm saw. the belt indexes 16 inches but the wood is thrown on randomly so the saw swings through the wood. it indexes. then swings through again. there are a lot of 16 in pieces but the randomly thrown slabs come with the ends anywhere so there are thousands of anything goes. totally trash wood. dirt. burns like sawdust. impossible to stack. usually tons of dirt all over it because its bark slid through the woods being drug out while it is onthe log. total waste of time. total.


One of my friends cuts his elm logs this way (12" lengths), and then lets the rounds sit for six months before he splits them by hand. That's right folks, he splits American and Chinese elm by hand with an 8-lb splitting maul. It can be done, but the 12" lengths make it a lot easier, so I don't ever criticize him. His back and arms are stronger than mine. In my youth, I used to do it also, but those days are gone.

We have an abundance of elm to work with and two years ago, I told him to let that elm dry in the round until the bark started falling off and it started to check up on the ends. Then split it. He thanked me for that and said that his stove takes a 24" log. So, he loads them in end-to-end when he burns them. I guess that's Yankee ingenuity emerging in eastern Nebraska.


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## CRThomas (Nov 3, 2012)

Dozer Man said:


> Good thread.
> 
> Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
> 1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...
> ...


People are wanting to buy firewood by the piece but don't know how to charge need a little help thanks


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 6, 2012)

*Indeed an Interesting Post*



CRThomas said:


> People are wanting to buy firewood by the piece but don't know how to charge need a little help thanks


Buying firewood by the piece? Are you kidding me? I suppose it is possible.

Well, how about $1 for each piece--a good size log at that. See what they say. Can't hurt to try. Had I done that last spring I would have probably doubled my $Sales for the summer.


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## Coldfront (Nov 14, 2012)

Rearden said:


> In response to the crack about who should and shouldn't be burnin' wood, I have two younger kids that actually help out at home, and they have issues with the bigger wood, but we also inherited an insert that's pretty small at the back - so 12-14" logs are a lot easier to load. I also cut for two older couples that can't afford to pay the oil company ransom, so the only affordable way for them to keep warm and remain independent is to burn what they can handle. Rather than piles of sticks they prefer thicker pieced splits of a shorter length. Who am I to judge?
> 
> Coldfront, gettin' old ain't fer pussies, and if ya don't drop a tree on yerself, ya might live long enough to find that out for yourself. People don't have to justify to the market what they want and why, they just have to be willing to pay for it and the market will typically respond. The annoyance of trying to deal with irregular or malapropped units of measure only makes people more leery and a bigger PITA to deal with. I show folks a four row cord of 12" that I keep for our small insert, and a three row cord of 16" that I cut for another. Since I'm cuttin' for a year or two out there's always a split cord of each on hand for them to see for themselves. Don't have to do much explaining about why I charge more for one than the other. The extra work is self evident and most folks can see and understand that without too much trouble.
> 
> Visual aids aside, people also appreciate being shown how to determine seasoned from green and the difference in BTU potential between varieties of wood. If you're interested in establishing a relationship where people trust you and come back for more, you can't be too forthcoming with information. I've never had anybody complain about me trying to be too honest.



Oh come on, if you can't carry a piece of 16" split seasoned dry wood you have a bigger problem. My one year old granddaughter can carry that. If they are that weak or crippled they should be burning gas or fuel oil and get on a fuel assistance program.


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## FatJay (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't buy split wood anymore because I can't trust the people delivering it. I don't know about other areas but if you call 3 local independent wood suppliers, you can get prices from $150/cord to $300/cord. "All hardwood" my ass. "Seasoned" my ass. This is my first year splitting everything, prior I'd get it semi-split and seasoned from a guy who gave me a break for cutting out some of his work, then hit it with the maul a few times. I'd come out with just above a cord for $200.

Basically I've learned that not all cords are created equal. Guy skims a few feet off 10 cords to make an extra cord and pockets $200. When you are selling a thousand cords that'll add up, and most people won't notice.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 17, 2012)

Coldfront said:


> Oh come on, if you can't carry a piece of 16" split seasoned dry wood you have a bigger problem. My one year old granddaughter can carry that. If they are that weak or crippled they should be burning gas or fuel oil and get on a fuel assistance program.



I hope you don't have to eat those words in your old age.

Harry K


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## Aristol (Nov 27, 2012)

I think there is no issue as to how to measure wood. Its's quite simple as it should be measured in its volume, which will include it lengths, widths height an ddiameter. And somewhere it measured in Cord which contains 128 feet of stacked wood, which is usually 8 feet long, 4 feet high and deep.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 27, 2012)

Aristol said:


> I think there is no issue as to how to measure wood. Its's quite simple as it should be measured in its volume, which will include it lengths, widths height an ddiameter. And somewhere it measured in Cord which contains 128 feet of stacked wood, which is usually 8 feet long, 4 feet high and deep.



Not "somewhere". It is measured in cords in any jurisdiction where wood sales are regulated under the "Weights and Measures" statutes. It is not optional. Since it is not policed as it should be there are a lot of scam artists and people who should know better selling by all kinds of unofficial measures - face cords is one which is generally regarded as 4x4x8' but still meaninglessunless the length of the splits is also given. Even then it is not a legal measure under the statutes and many of them specifically state that.

Harry K


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## mrnecsteve (Dec 21, 2012)

Rearden said:


> In response to the crack about who should and shouldn't be burnin' wood, I have two younger kids that actually help out at home, and they have issues with the bigger wood, but we also inherited an insert that's pretty small at the back - so 12-14" logs are a lot easier to load. I also cut for two older couples that can't afford to pay the oil company ransom, so the only affordable way for them to keep warm and remain independent is to burn what they can handle. Rather than piles of sticks they prefer thicker pieced splits of a shorter length. Who am I to judge?
> 
> Coldfront, gettin' old ain't fer pussies, and if ya don't drop a tree on yerself, ya might live long enough to find that out for yourself. People don't have to justify to the market what they want and why, they just have to be willing to pay for it and the market will typically respond. The annoyance of trying to deal with irregular or malapropped units of measure only makes people more leery and a bigger PITA to deal with. I show folks a four row cord of 12" that I keep for our small insert, and a three row cord of 16" that I cut for another. Since I'm cuttin' for a year or two out there's always a split cord of each on hand for them to see for themselves. Don't have to do much explaining about why I charge more for one than the other. The extra work is self evident and most folks can see and understand that without too much trouble.
> 
> Visual aids aside, people also appreciate being shown how to determine seasoned from green and the difference in BTU potential between varieties of wood. If you're interested in establishing a relationship where people trust you and come back for more, you can't be too forthcoming with information. I've never had anybody complain about me trying to be too honest.



If I needed to buy wood...I would buy from you...


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## elmoleaf (Dec 23, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> Not "somewhere". It is measured in cords in any jurisdiction where wood sales are regulated under the "Weights and Measures" statutes. ......
> 
> Harry K



This is not true. Every state and locale seems to vary. As I posted in another thread:
In Massachusetts, "cord" is not an accepted measure...though used extensively nonethteless. Here is the law in MA:

MGL Chapter 94 Section 298. Cordwood sold or offered or exposed for sale shall be four feet in length. The term “firewood” shall be construed to mean and include wood cut to any lengths of less than four feet and more than eight inches. Cordwood and firewood shall be advertised, offered for sale and sold only in terms of cubic feet or cubic meters which will be construed as indicating the closely stacked cubic foot or cubic meter content to be delivered to the purchaser. The terms “cord”, “face cord”, “pile”, “truckload” or terms of similar import shall not be used in the advertising and sale of cordwood or firewood. The term “kindling wood” shall be construed to mean and include all split wood, edgings, clippings or other waste wood averaging eight inches in length. Except as provided by sections two hundred and forty-three and two hundred and forty-seven, the standard unit of measure for kindling wood shall be the bushel of two thousand one hundred and fifty and forty-two hundredths cubic inches.

Section 299. Whoever, except as otherwise provided, sells cordwood or firewood, shall cause a delivery ticket or sales invoice to be issued and delivered to the purchaser or his agent at the time of delivery of the wood. Such delivery ticket or sales invoice shall include the name and address of the seller and the purchaser, the quantity delivered to the purchaser in terms of cubic feet or cubic meters, the date delivered and the price of the quantity of wood delivered. Whoever violates any provision of this or the preceding section shall be punished for the first offense by a fine of fifty dollars, for the second offense by a fine of two hundred dollars and for each subsequent offense by a fine of five hundred dollars. Whoever alters or substitutes a delivery ticket or sales invoice for fraudulent or deceptive purposes shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or shall be subject to a civil citation as provided in section 29A of chapter 98.


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## Delaware Devil (Dec 24, 2012)

I think we have a quandry here. Which is considered higher, The federal government or the state governmment?? Dept of Agriculture says one thing, State of Taxachusetts says another. If you want to buy by the foot, that's fine, but if I buy it I want a cord and that's 128 cubic feet. Fellow stopped yesterday. Had a short bed pick up and a small trailer piled with slab wood from a saw mill. Tried to tell me it was a cord, he left after I gave him a thorough schooling about weights and measures. He now realizes the error of his ways.


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## Jim_I (Dec 28, 2012)

Figure out how much time (hours) to cut a cord with 24" pieces. Divide the time by the cord price in your area to get the hourly rate. When you custom cut wood for a customer you'll then know how much to charge based on time spent.


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## scotte303 (Feb 2, 2013)

I have a friend who has been a tree man /firewood guy his entire life and is now 62. He tells me there are 2 types of cords.

a "pulp cord" 4x4x8 no air inbetween, its wood pulp used for whatever they glue the stuff together for or make out of it.

Then the firewood cord which is 2 face cords put together. 

This does make sense to me, however if the 2 face cords have 24" long pieces, your definatley getting more wood than the guy getting the 16 inch pieces.
Just my 2 cents.

Time to go split two thousand pieces...4 cords....?


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## Steve NW WI (Feb 2, 2013)

scotte303 said:


> I have a friend who has been a tree man /firewood guy his entire life and is now 62. He tells me there are 2 types of cords.
> 
> a "pulp cord" 4x4x8 no air inbetween, its wood pulp used for whatever they glue the stuff together for or make out of it.
> 
> ...



Scotte, I moved your post to the "How to measure firewood" thread. Nothing personal, and you didn't do anything wrong really, just that I'm new at this moderator stuff and thought I'd give moving a post a try.

That, and firewood measurement is always a guaranteed thread derail.


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 2, 2013)

scotte303 said:


> I have a friend who has been a tree man /firewood guy his entire life and is now 62. He tells me there are 2 types of cords.
> 
> a "pulp cord" 4x4x8 no air inbetween, its wood pulp used for whatever they glue the stuff together for or make out of it.
> 
> ...



Your freind doesn't know what he is talkign about. There is no such thing as a standard "face cord".

What does he mean by "no air in between" - that is an impossibility unless it a balk sawn out of a tree.

Yes, originally the "cord" did mean 4' long pieces because that was a good size to stoke steam engines and fireplaces. Some places still do use "pulp cord" but youwon't find it defined in any Weights and Measures standards that I have come across.

Harry K


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## scotte303 (Feb 2, 2013)

turnkey4099 said:


> Your freind doesn't know what he is talkign about. There is no such thing as a standard "face cord".
> 
> What does he mean by "no air in between" - that is an impossibility unless it a balk sawn out of a tree.
> 
> ...


What do you mean ,no such thing as a face cord? I have heard this term used all over the north east.
Also, i said no air in between on the pulp cord. Which my understanding is basically ground up wood. This post was originally in the how many pieces of wood in a cord thread. So as for weights and measures ...


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 3, 2013)

scotte303 said:


> What do you mean ,no such thing as a face cord? I have heard this term used all over the north east.
> Also, i said no air in between on the pulp cord. Which my understanding is basically ground up wood. This post was originally in the how many pieces of wood in a cord thread. So as for weights and measures ...



Did you miss "standard"? Look itup in the Weights and Measures regs. You will find, if it is mentioned at all, it specifically states it is an illegal measure. The reason "face cord" is not a standard is because it does one describes two dimensions, lentght of cut alos has to be specified before anyone knows how much is in that "face cord".

There is absolutely no reason to ever use face cord. Specify it by cord or fraction thereof and everyone knows immediatly how much wood you are talkign about.

"Ground up wood" has more air in it than splits tightly packed. The smaller you work up your wood, the more surface area you get and thus more air. Now if you were to take that ground up wood and put it through a compactor...

As for "so much for weights and measures..." if you are selling in a state that regulates firewood sales, you do NOT want to have a customer lodge a complaint with those people. The only reson 'face cord" and like survive is few customers ever complain.

Harry K


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## scotte303 (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification.
So now I am reading the states "weights and measures" laws specifically related to firewood. as you said, 4x4x8. 
So, is there a "minimum" of pieces you get in a cord? 
Thanks,

Scott


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## Steve NW WI (Feb 3, 2013)

scotte303 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> So now I am reading the states "weights and measures" laws specifically related to firewood. as you said, 4x4x8.
> So, is there a "minimum" of pieces you get in a cord?
> Thanks,
> ...



Yup, one. It'd be a REAL big piece though!

Seriously, no. Too much variation in size. My splits might be half or less the size that an OWB owner splits to, and still twice the size of the bundles they sell at gas stations.


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## Gologit (Feb 3, 2013)

scotte303 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> So now I am reading the states "weights and measures" laws specifically related to firewood. as you said, 4x4x8.
> So, is there a "minimum" of pieces you get in a cord?
> Thanks,
> ...



"Pieces" don't make the cord. Volume does. If you split your wood real small you might have more pieces but the measurement of a cord remains the same...128 cubic feet.

Local custom creates terminology but the legal definition of a cord of wood always remains the same.

Our County weights and measures department runs stings occasionally on firewood dealers who are suspected of shorting their customers. They get a couple every time. It's illegal here to sell in anything but cords or fractions thereof. Most homeowners who burn wood don't have a real knowledge of what a cord looks like and they can get ripped off.


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## Philbert (Feb 3, 2013)

Gologit said:


> "Pieces" don't make the cord. Volume does. If you split your wood real small you might have more pieces but the measurement of a cord remains the same...128 cubic feet.



Somewhere on A.S. (maybe in this thread) someone compared the differences in volume with split wood.

If you started with a 4'x4'x8' block of milled wood and cut it into 2x4's with a bandsaw, the cubic volume of the tightly stacked wood would go down, due to the sawdust produced.

If you split the same wood, the cubic volume of the stack would go up, because you could never get the pieces that close again. Depending on how small and how smooth you split it, the size of the pile varies. That is why, as I understand it, most regs say something like 'tightly stacked' when referring to volume.

Wood also shrinks as it dries, so a cord of green wood is going to be smaller after it cures.

Some guys in this thread insist that the split wood they sell 'started out as a full cord of wood' (e.g. green logs), which is something else than a cord of split, seasoned, firewood.

Philbert


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## fearofpavement (Feb 7, 2013)

This is what the state of Georgia says about legal firewood sales:

Department of Agriculture Regulations Help Protect Buyers, Sellers of Firewood......

...... According to regulations administered by the department’s Fuels and Measures office, wood of any type sold as fuel for fireplaces or stoves must be sold by the cord or cubic measure. A cord is defined as 128 cubic feet of wood stacked by the line or row in a compact manner with individual pieces touching. The cord can be four feet high, four feet wide (deep) and eight feet long, or any combination of these measurements (height, width and length) that yield 128 cubic feet of firewood (4 ft. x 4 ft. x 8 ft. = 128 cubic feet).

Although consumers easily can measure the height and length of a cord of wood, they should pay particular attention to the width (depth) of the cord. Since it is impractical to cut firewood into lengths of four feet for most uses, consumers likely will want the wood in more manageable lengths of 24 or 16 inches for use in fireplaces and stoves. Therefore, for wood stacked in rows four feet high and eight feet long, it will take two rows of 24-inch wood or three rows of 16-inch wood to provide a width (depth) of four feet (48 inches).

*Departmental regulations require that firewood must be advertised and sold only by the cord, fraction of a cord, or in cubic measure*, said Rich Lewis, director of the fuel and measures section. However, consumers may see the words “truckload, face cord or rack” in connection with firewood advertisements, but these are not legally recognized measurements..

“Consumers may find firewood sold in *small bundles or shrink-wrapped packages* at convenience stores and other retail outlets, Lewis said. “However, the Department requires that *the quantity of the firewood be clearly displayed on the package in terms of cubic measure* so the consumer will know the exact amount of wood purchased.

Department rules also state that firewood must be designated within 10 percent accuracy as to the type or species of wood. For instance, a cord may be advertised as 50 percent oak and 50 percent hickory as long as the percentage of each species is not off by more than 10 percent.....

....A cord is defined as 128 cubic feet of wood stacked by the line or row in a compact manner with individual pieces touching; it can be four feet high, four feet wide (deep), and eight feet long, or any combination of these measurements (height, width and length) that yields 128 cubic feet.


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## fearofpavement (Feb 7, 2013)

and in regards to Georgia regulations, most pay no attention to them and sell wood by the "load" or "stack". Scope out the Atlanta CL and look under "firewood". Prices all over the place too.

I have sold one cord of wood in the past two years. Tornadoes keep coming through and destroying the market. That and the 70 degree January temps. lol


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## ropensaddle (Feb 7, 2013)

Dozer Man said:


> Good thread.
> 
> Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
> 1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...
> ...



Well I have a lady that buys 12 inch from me I haul full cord and charge one third higher. People; wood aint worth crap until its split and cut, I don't sell wood. I sell my labor to produce it, likewise if they want 24 inch i reduce my price as my labor is reduced! Now the truth is; cord or fractions of a cord OR you can sell by the cubic foot legal but must have a label of cubic foot attached in some manner!


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 17, 2013)

fearofpavement said:


> and in regards to Georgia regulations, most pay no attention to them and sell wood by the "load" or "stack". Scope out the Atlanta CL and look under "firewood". Prices all over the place too.
> 
> I have sold one cord of wood in the past two years. Tornadoes keep coming through and destroying the market. That and the 70 degree January temps. lol



The problem with regulating wood sales is that the W&M people don't do anything unless someone complains - they rarely do. Seems the W&M people could peruse the "firewood for sale" ads on their coffeebreak and then give the sellers of 'ricks, face cords, bunches, etc' the "word" when they got back to their desks 

Harry K


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