# Side work?



## maloufstree (Apr 18, 2009)

Hey everyone love the site and all the info that is provided, I get on every couple of days but guess and read the topics but don't post much myself.....anyways just wondering what everyone thinks about your help doing side work. I live in a rural community where I have to serve our whole county to be able to operate 5 days a week. My two full time employees of 5 years do some mowing and landscaping on the side. I let them take a set of climbing gear and a 200t to cut an limb here or there. Last weekend I was driving down the road and I see them working on some trees....20 plus trees (3 miles from our yard) and thought tp myself I not going to say anything just not going to let them carry any gear home anymore. Now the more Ive thought about it the more upset I've become....What do I do?

Sorry post is so long (BLOOD IS BOILING)

Thanks Craig


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## tomtrees58 (Apr 18, 2009)

cut the cord don't lend eq you are cutting your throat:greenchainsaw:tom trees


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## B.Secord (Apr 18, 2009)

I agree with Tom, they are abusing your generosity, on the equipment lending. I would let any employee go that did side (tree) work on their days off.

If you trained them is all aspects of the tree service industry, their next step is to start their own operation and compete with you. I wonder IF they have their own insurance? It is possible that they are doing the work under YOUR name and being paid in CASH????

Hey if ya don't mind them having their hand in your pocket, keep 'em! I would fire their a$$es! Sounds like they have little regard for your business, I wouldn't be very happy either!


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## maloufstree (Apr 18, 2009)

I have never had a bit of trouble out of these guys in five years, there not perfect, they've been late a few times, disagreement or two but at the end of the day they had always respected me as their boss. They run the jobs the way i want them ran, and in return I feel that I take good care of them. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just hate to let somebody go when Ive never had to talk to them about this.(Who knows how many times its happened)If letting them go is the only option,its the only option


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## B.Secord (Apr 18, 2009)

I feel for ya. Five years is a long time to have any employee. I am guessing they see or hear the gross price you get for doing a tree job, and figure you are gettin' the gravey. Are they around to service the equipment, quote the jobs, or even appreciate the time it takes to do the payroll stuff?

Makes me wonder what the problem is with them BUYING their own saw, and other gear! I hear times are tough down your way. Employees competing with the boss is NOT what you need.

I used to refer work to other reputable companies, that I didn't have time to get to right away. After a couple years I discovered that I was gettin' stabbed in the back, and NEVER had one of the companies call and thank me for the referral. I quit that practice REAL quick. I have set the standards for my operation VERY high. Much to my dismay, other companies that I had heard were like mind, failed to impress me with their work or their ethics.

If you have the work to keep you and yours comfortable, I guess guys moonlighting isn't a biggy, but they should pobably do it with their OWN equipment, IMO.


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## Bur Oak (Apr 18, 2009)

Well, I think this is a problem. And communication is typically key for problem solving. So you might have an opportunity to test your problem solving communication skills.

I would start out by sitting the workers down and explaining the problem from my perspective. Then I would ask them if they think a problem exists, and if so what it is. I would then propose a few solutions from my perspective, and if they agreed that a problem existed, ask for solutions from their perspective. The results are a possible outline for the road forward. Of course, a couple times a year a followup conversation is appropriate to ensure behaviors are consistent with any mutually agreed solutions.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 18, 2009)

I wouldnt fire them if they are good employees overall. I would definatly let them know that when you agreed to lend them equip that it was for "a limb or two" not a $2000 job. And then tell them that if they are getting that much work they can buy there own tools.


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## maloufstree (Apr 18, 2009)

Thank each and every one of you for your responses and please keep'em coming. I wont see or have a talk with them until monday. B.Secord I do have enough work to be comfortable even with the economy the way it is the bulk of my work is under 20 miles but I have to have a 30 to 35 mile radius to work constant 5 day weeks


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## treemandan (Apr 18, 2009)

lend? Lend? LEND?! O M G ! First of all... oh nevermind but I will note this: You can borrow my tools if I can %$#@... like I said, nevermind.
Sure if it was something at thier own residence but then I would just probably help them out anyway but that's about it. I would never think to borrow my employers tools in the fashion mentioned.
Once I saw this guy borrow a 4x4 hub socket which he broke and tried to weld back together, he gave it back like that, was locked in a bathroom and had bottle rockets shot under the door for about ten minutes at him. There was no place to hide in there.


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## Treetom (Apr 18, 2009)

Wutterya gonna do? A guy has to earn a living. I consider it none of my business what a guy does on his own time. As long as it doesn't affect his performance on my jobs or reflect on my business. But if he's earning money with my equipment, I get a piece of the pie. And if clients see these boys working for you, then working on their own, your company is being represented. Your good reputation may play a part in them landing jobs in the first place. If they do a good job, good for you. If they screw up, bad for you because "those are the guys that work for Maloufstree." You're invested in these side jobs in one way or the other. Hope you work something out.


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## Tree Pig (Apr 18, 2009)

A good employee is going to be loyal to his employer. Doing a side job for their family or close friend is one thing and maybe understandable. But seeking outside money and using your equipment is unthinkable to me.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2009)

It seems to me that the side work is just part of the business. 

The questions you need to ask are:

how did they get the work, was it on one of your jobs? 

As stated above, is your name used on the job at all? Liability big time.

Do you understand the liability you open yourself up to by allowing equipment out the door, even for "a limb or two?"

What you need to do is write up a few short paragraphs to the effect:

The employee shall not take any equipment for personal use. Such use shall be considered theft, and use for company property for personal gain shall be considered theft from the company.

The employee shall not compete with the company in the companies area of operations. The employee shall not represent himself as the company for personal gain, and any such misrepresentation shall be considered theft from the company.

Any employee who sells work for the company, conducts the work for the company, on company time, shall receive bonus compensation.​
I have heard of cases where an employer gets stuck with a big W/C case because he loaned or rented equipment.

Milwaukee County had a huge settlement in a case where a lady was killed by a mattress falling off a county owned trailer that an employee borrowed.

The county was going to loose the case because there was a tacit or implied understanding that employees could borrow equipment for personal use.


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## StihlRockin' (Apr 18, 2009)

maloufstree said:


> I let them take a set of climbing gear and a 200t to cut an limb here or there.





maloufstree said:


> What do I do?



I would NEVER let anyone borrow my equipment... NEVER! It's my business and lively hood. To say is only a policy with me and nothing personal. I've had a few ask me over the years and I've borrowed ropes, but I since change and I don't borrow gear out anymore.

So what you should do is obvious to me. Also, soon some day, one or both those workers will be doing work for themselves instead of you!

*StihlRockin'*


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## fishercat (Apr 18, 2009)

*i'd simply have a little caht with them.*

maybe if they are ready to do big jobs like that on their own,they're are ready to pony up and buy their own equipment to do those jobs.

i'd explain the loan a tool program is over since it is being taken advantage of if you decide to keep them.firing them is a tough call,since i don't know your situation 100%


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## teamtree (Apr 18, 2009)

I would have a strict no side-work policy.

1. It is in their best interest to bring that work to you and run it through your business. If you are trying to keep them busy and they are under cutting the market by doing it for cash on the side it makes it harder for you to get the price you need.

2. You could be held liable for workers comp claims should they get hurt. By not saying anything it could be determined that you are encouraging them to work on the side. It is not your guys who will sue you, it will be their families.

3. You could also be held liable for any property damage claims. If they are using your equipment it could be determined you are involved in teh transaction. You have to be really careful. Since they work for you it could be determined your guys are acting as agents for you company. A little business law education will scare the hell out of you.

4. If they are going to do it for friends and family, they should notify you of the work to be done. 

5. Discuss it with them. Offer them a bonus for any work that they bring in. It will be in your best interest to develop them as crew leaders and salesmen. If not, you may be looking at your future competition.

Did you bid on the work that they were completing?

Is it work you would have done?


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## John464 (Apr 18, 2009)

teamtree said:


> I would have a strict no side-work policy.




same here. I have fired dozens of employees for this. I dont even lend out my equipment to my help. If they have something that needs done at their home we as a company will do it for a very reduced rate. Besides their own home, each employee is required to pass out company business cards should someone request tree care. Landscaping they can have, but when they are on my time they are not a landscaper and soliciting is a no no. I have caught a few sneaky bastards passing out their own cards to my customers saying " next time call me I will do it cheaper and Im the one doing the work anyway". Lets just say I made sure every other tree care company in the area knew their antics and to not hire them. 

Every employee I hire is aware of the co. policy. Side work is like stealing. If their intentions are to start their own business. They can gather leads on their own time. Spend for advertising, equipment, insurance, etc and by the time they do all that its best they go out on their own anyhow. 

Side work gets you the boot, even for a small $100 tree job. Its about building lifetime customers who call you for the $100 job this time and next time the $3,000 job.


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## Tree Student (Apr 18, 2009)

Craig,

I have had this happen to me before so I know what you are going through, I quit lending my equipment to my help but if they need something done then I will take the truck and saws to their site and help them cut a few things but nothing large. When I caught one of my guys competing with me I waited until the job was finished and asked their customer about who did their tree work and what they thought about them because I needed some work done. This will tell you if they are using your name and you can even find out how much they charged to see if they are trying to undercut your bids or if they used you or your customers as references. It might turn out that it's a family relative that they are trying to help out, as Stihl-O-Matic said, we are only seeing one side of the issue at the moment.

In my case it turned out they were using my company name to bid the jobs and even advertise on craigslist using my insurance and reputation but just a different phone number. I was so furious that I gave the guy some unpaid time off because he violated my trust by lieing to me but we came to an understanding after we sat down a talked about the consequences of his actions. John Paul's suggestion on the written no compete clause sounds like a good preventative measure so if they are caught doing it again it's automatic termination.

Good help is very hard to find around here so when they become an exceptional employee, or even anything above average, then I try to keep them on the payroll. One of the ways I try to prevent this from happening again is by offering a sales commission if we get the job so they are getting paid on both ends.

Hope this give some insight from your side of the fence.

James


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## Blakesmaster (Apr 18, 2009)

I don't think you can blame a man for stepping in and doing a job on his own. That being said, he should NOT be using your equipment or even remotely affiliating himself with your company. You need to stop those two things. Other than that let him run. Personally, I climb part time for a much bigger operation than I own. It gets tricky from time to time when we're competing on bids but good communication solves it. Neither me or my boss need each other but we've come to an understanding that working together can benefit both of us...for now.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 18, 2009)

maloufstree said:


> I just hate to let somebody go when Ive never had to talk to them about this.




I think that's your answer. If you've allowed it up til now, you've helped create this monster, so you have some responsibility here. It's not right to fire them when you've never said boo about it before now. 

Not only that, I think they'd be on good legal ground to sue you for wrongful termination if you can them with no warning.


I think it's time to have a talk with them. Explain that they are takking money out of your pocket. Lay out the new rules.

THEN you have reason to can them if they keep it up.

Just make sure you've cooled down before you have your talk. Remember, YOU helped create the situation. They might have no clue that they are crossing the line.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 18, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't think you can blame a man for stepping in and doing a job on his own. That being said, he should NOT be using your equipment or even remotely affiliating himself with your company. You need to stop those two things. Other than that let him run. Personally, I climb part time for a much bigger operation than I own. It gets tricky from time to time when we're competing on bids but good communication solves it. Neither me or my boss need each other but we've come to an understanding that working together can benefit both of us...for now.



I think we have talked about this deal before.
I have a simular situation where I have a buddy ,and we have worked together on a few jobs,or one would do the climbing on the others job if one of us weren't well enough to climb for some reason,or do stumps for each other if one's grinder was down.
So far it has worked out ok.
But it can be hard to be friend with a competitor.

As far as the side job goes,spending a half Sunday cutting at auntie emm's house would not bother me..................A 2000$ job.........I'd be furious.

I don't know if I would fire them,but it would be explained in no uncertain terms that it will not be tolerated in the future.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 18, 2009)

I see a few new names here tonight .

Welcome to AS


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 18, 2009)

Very interesting topic. I see so many good points.

I can't even conceive of being with one crew for five years. You've got something, don't blow it, make it work for all of you.

I have a yearling that I've trained on the ROW for my clearance employer during the week, and I trained him well. He's bright, no question, and just may have the backing to get some equipment and become the competition some days, partners the next perhaps, it matters little to me.

I'm heading out on my own to do residential and commercial, perhaps fulltime by next year.

He was wanting to be a lineman, but has too many saw chips flowing in his blood now I think. (They say it's more addictive than heroin, but better for you...way better.)

Good for him. We all own our own saws now so it matters little what he does with it. My only concern would be that he heads out too soon without doing the comprehensive research.

So then, if they cop a tude when you confront them, let them go see if they can make it with all that goes into it. It might be the best thing to ever happen to them. They just might be your competition for a job or two until they self destruct.

Don't be surprised if at least one returns looking for a job before the season is out.

Just throwing that out there.


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## capetrees (Apr 18, 2009)

Are there others in the company that can step up and take over the positions these guys hold? If so, can them or at least demote them. 

And by all means, DON'T LEND YOUR EQUIPMENT TO ANYONE!! If it breaks, you're screwed. If they use it to take jobs from you, you're screwed. If they need a saw or gear for their jobs, have them buy their own and then they can feel the pains of affording that you have.


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## PurdueJoe (Apr 18, 2009)

When I finished school and hired on with the company I use to work for I made it very clear with the owner that I planned on working for myself full time one day and until then I would work on the weekends for myself whenever I could. It worked out just fine. Why? 1. I had my own gear and never let him buy any anything unless it was a bonus type deal. Never asked to use his equipment like chippers or trucks. If I needed a piece of equipment I didn't have and he did I new what is target rate was per hour and subbed it out to him And lastly I would never try an steal work from him by pulling the "ol' yeah I own my own show too I can do it cheaper" Granted I have unknowing bid against him on jobs and have beat him out but thats just life. In fact I get a call from him about a month ago asking if I did a job for so and so in town x and I said "o yeah turned out to be a pain in the azz" He said " Yeah I bid it a couple months back an never got around to it so I stopped by and looked cause i was in the neighbor and saw they had it done and was really impressed on how WHOEVER they had do it did a good job and did pretty much what I would have done" I smiled and thought "Thats one of the best complements I've ever got from him"


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 18, 2009)

Once I saw this guy borrow a 4x4 hub socket which he broke and tried to weld back together, he gave it back like that, was locked in a bathroom and had bottle rockets shot under the door for about ten minutes at him. There was no place to hide in there.[/QUOTE]

Once again I have spit my mouthful of refreshment all over everything! 

NO SIDEWORK! SIDEWORK BAD! OFFER THEM COMMISSION FOR BRINGING IN WORK! They have an accident with your equipment and no insurance what do you think will happen to you?


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## oldirty (Apr 18, 2009)

by the response of the owners i'd say this irks you to say the least.

me? i LOVE side work. eat it up in fact. why cant i go make a weeks pay on saturday or a couple days after work? my thing though is that i have spent a few years in a few different places so my gigs are all over the place. 

one thing i wont do though is take work from my boss if the neighbor comes over looking for something. i pass along the company number, talk up what we can do and that they will be pleased with the effort. along with telling them that the boss is a good guy to deal with.

anyway back to the topic. i own all my own saws and climbing gear to go along with the rigging needs. i would be an absolute fool if i didnt use that gear to make money. crash and burns are the best gigs ever for a climber.

why wouldnt i use my skill on my own time? ive honed it, ive bled for it, hell ive risked my life for it! ive earned the right to earn some money that isnt from you. no?


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 18, 2009)

That clear line of separation needs to be defined. Some of the bigger outfits will not let you do sidework and work for them. If I work for someone it is as an independant climber with my own liability and worker's comp. Sure you can borrow my gear just give me a couple thousand down for a security deposit... no that doesn't include the chipper and you can't touch Mad Mary either!


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## Rickytree (Apr 18, 2009)

oldirty said:


> by the response of the owners i'd say this irks you to say the least.
> 
> me? i LOVE side work. eat it up in fact. why cant i go make a weeks pay on saturday or a couple days after work? my thing though is that i have spent a few years in a few different places so my gigs are all over the place.
> 
> ...



:agree2: Don't lend out the gear but you really can't stop a guy trying to get alittle side cake. And if you try you will look like a dink. I work for a guy that gives me small jobs cuz he's got big equipment. Just think if you were in the employee's position wanting to eat steak and not :spam:


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## oldirty (Apr 18, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If it's cutting into my business and it bothers me then I let them go. As a business owner I've earned the right to keep in my employ who I want.



10 4 on that good buddy. 

even if i am not pissing on your lawns? you'd let me go for trying to make some more loot? what if i need tires for my truck but your wage wont cover that expense because food and fuel and rent cost too much?


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## maloufstree (Apr 18, 2009)

Oldirty I can respect that. Assuming that your a climber that was hired as a climber and that you have all your own equipment I could see that and don't think that would bother me. These guys got hired because they were hard working groundies 5 years ago. They wanted to climb and now they climb full time and all I do is mostly bucket work. Bottom line is that me seeing them doing a job like 3 miles from the yard felt like a slap in the face.


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## maloufstree (Apr 18, 2009)

Ohhh tires I bought one of them a set of tires and he pays me back $10.00 every two weeks...I made that deal and thats part of what I was saying I feel that I have been good to these guys


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## oldirty (Apr 18, 2009)

fair nuff sir. i was not aware that you had brought them along like that. and yes 3 miles from the shop is a bitter pill.

i can only hope that they have earned you some good money, for their sake.

definitely have that chat.


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## clearance (Apr 18, 2009)

oldirty said:


> by the response of the owners i'd say this irks you to say the least.
> 
> me? i LOVE side work. eat it up in fact. why cant i go make a weeks pay on saturday or a couple days after work? my thing though is that i have spent a few years in a few different places so my gigs are all over the place.
> 
> ...



You got 'er oldirty, same thing goes for me. Worked my azz off for everyone I worked for, some gratefull, some not. I have been hurt, kept going, gone the extra mile. Crash and burn, B.F. mess, I love it.

That being said there malouf, I understand how you feel. You sound like a pretty good boss. 5 years is a long time. They should slip you a few bucks, really now, they should. I would have a talk with them and explain how you feel, not mad or nothing, just say how you feel. See what they have to say.


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## oldirty (Apr 18, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> just like your insurance is!



what?


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## clearance (Apr 18, 2009)

oldirty said:


> what?



Lol. Best one liner of the year.


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## oldirty (Apr 19, 2009)

i gots nothing but love for you treeco. didnt think i was throwing any disrespect your way. none meant if you thought i was.

stay safe.


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## oldirty (Apr 19, 2009)

is this where we hug? lol


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## Rickytree (Apr 19, 2009)

oldirty said:


> is this where we hug? lol



just kiss and get it over with! BTW anyone see the pic's I posted on the pic's forum.. Hate to Hi jack but Jees I had to comment myself to bump out "picures from Mom's place.."


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## oldirty (Apr 19, 2009)

clearance said:


> Crash and burn, B.F. mess, I love it.



the best!



sorry to the OP for the group that treeco put up. hope that doesnt scare you away from the thread you started.


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## Rickytree (Apr 19, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> No hugs for me!



Man why do you have pic's like that in your possesion?


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 19, 2009)

*Gotta be resonable*

I let my guys borrow gear to do sidework, but theres limits. Gear gets borrowed maybe once every couple of months.

Sidework is often a symptom of guys not getting paid enough. One of my competition pays his guys 25% less than I do and his guys side job EVERY weekend. 

Its unreasonable to expect skilled guys not to use there initiative and skills to better themselves. If they are good employees you need to manage this so everyones happy. If you were able to make more in a day than you can normally in a week wouldnt you take it??

Theres a number of ways of doing this.

1) give your guys a limit on how much side work they can do. Perhaps limit it to there family members, friends or neighbours. Or only working on public holidays etc. You dont want to make it happen to regularly but you cant realistically expect it not to happen.

2) If your on a job where the guys might be able to get it done early and youve priced it for a full day, tell the guys if they get this job cleaned up early, (tell em after the dangerous stuff is out of the way) on the way home you can drop by one of there houses or a relations house and finish the day off working there for free. Now you might have to quote this job beforehand with your guy, and let them know what it would normally cost. It will be appreciated my your guy and his whole family. 
Dependant on how many years hes worked for you, how hard he works or where you are you pick what jobs you got to or how long you go for.

3) Give your guys a good % on the jobs they do get for you or perhaps pay them double time/time and a half on the job or something like that, and make a big deal about it. when you do repeat jobs for that client still give them a % of the job. Helps with staff retention and helping YOU get more jobs and makes the rest of the crew want to find you work. If they find jobs and make double there normal pay doing it, sidework will become less of an issue.

Lots of ways around it without having to own your guys whole lives or having your guys resenting you for trying to control them.


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## maloufstree (Apr 19, 2009)

Sorry Clearance but it's no about them throwing me a few bucks. I guess I just need to hear their side of the story.


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## Bur Oak (Apr 19, 2009)

*Listening is Important*

In a successful business, employees are the enterprise’s most valuable resource. To the owner of a tree business this means the workers are more valuable than the chippers, trucks, grinders, and saws. Listening to your employees will gain you great insight. You already know what you think, but without dialogue would be guessing about their motivation. What if you fired them without providing them an opportunity to be heard, and then learned they were working side jobs to pay substantial bills for a family member who was just diagnosed with a significant medical problem? So hats off to you malousftree, for recognizing you need to listen to your employee’s perspectives. And of course, be hopeful that they will listen to yours!


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 19, 2009)

maloufstree said:


> Ohhh tires I bought one of them a set of tires and he pays me back $10.00 every two weeks...I made that deal and thats part of what I was saying I feel that I have been good to these guys



Last time I was a nice guy and let a guy borror $ he was nowhere to be found on monday. Yeah and he borrowed one of my tree books too. Little :censored: theif stole from me. No more loans here. And I never get to close to employees either, as far as being buddies goes. Seems like respect is lost when they feel like they know you good. Always keep your relationships on the professional level or things wont be like they should.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 19, 2009)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Sidework is often a symptom of guys not getting paid enough.
> 
> 
> Or a symptom of the guys working for you blowing all the $ you pay them on beer!


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## Raymond (Apr 19, 2009)

If they did it once they've done it before.
Chances are you've paid them by the hour to do work in the neighbors 
yard of your customers too. Making a little side money on the clock.

Off With Their Heads!


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## Raymond (Apr 19, 2009)

This kinda reminds me of when I first went out on my own.
I had another good tree buddy friend, that I teamed up with and when we got a job we both did them.

Worked great at first. Two new self employed tree guys with two phones ringing, bringing in twice the work.

I let him in on EVERY little job I had, even if it was a twenty minute job for 80 bucks or so. Because it was only fair and I thought he was doing the same.

Then one morning we talked on the phone and we both had nothing to do yet.
I went out looking for something for us, to find him cleaning out 2 large pinoaks with his wife doing the ground work.

I just rolled up on them...shook my head and drove off. Never seeing him again for a few years. I had twice the calls he did anyway, I THOUGHT.

I understand this is a little a different situation but letting them see you, seeing them, then heading back to your shop and waiting on them to see what they said would of been a good way to get this conversation started.


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## teamtree (Apr 19, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't think you can blame a man for stepping in and doing a job on his own. That being said, he should NOT be using your equipment or even remotely affiliating himself with your company. You need to stop those two things. Other than that let him run. Personally, I climb part time for a much bigger operation than I own. It gets tricky from time to time when we're competing on bids but good communication solves it. Neither me or my boss need each other but we've come to an understanding that working together can benefit both of us...for now.



I think you can blame him. If he is an employee of a tree care company and is doing work in competition with his employer he is cutting the hand that feeds him. Why would I want one of my employees to do a job for $100 that I would do for $300. It is wrong on so many levels. It just comes down to greed. As an owner I tell all my employees to bring the work in and you will get a good cut of the pie. If they have work at their friends and family we will do it at cost. I may be old fashion but where in the hell does LOYALTY factor in to this equation?


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## Rftreeman (Apr 19, 2009)

If you are loaning them gear then what grounds do you have to fire them unless they stole work from you and by that I mean if someone walks up and say "hey, can I get a price" and they end up doing the job then yes they have violated the rules but if you have never set rules against that then how can it be wrong? I understand that maybe they didn't tell you the whole truth but you allowed this to happen, you're at fault for not explaining the rules.


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## Lawnmowerboy48 (Apr 19, 2009)

With the company that I work for if a neighbor comes up asking for work you must give them contacts for the company. Side work you are on your own and can rent equipment from the company.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 19, 2009)

I could care less about the guys that help me doing their own thing but what gripes my ass is when they give one of their cards to neighbors that ask for one, if it's my job then my cards need to go out, not theirs and they all know this now.


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## Raymond (Apr 19, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I could care less about the guys that help me doing their own thing but what gripes my ass is when they give one of their cards to neighbors that ask for one, if it's my job then my cards need to go out, not theirs and they all know this now.


You got that right! 
It'll be interesting to see who thinks this is OK?


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## Blakesmaster (Apr 19, 2009)

teamtree said:


> I think you can blame him. If he is an employee of a tree care company and is doing work in competition with his employer he is cutting the hand that feeds him. Why would I want one of my employees to do a job for $100 that I would do for $300. It is wrong on so many levels. It just comes down to greed. As an owner I tell all my employees to bring the work in and you will get a good cut of the pie. If they have work at their friends and family we will do it at cost. I may be old fashion but where in the hell does LOYALTY factor in to this equation?



I guess that is where the value of the employee comes in to play. You have to gauge whether this person is still an asset to you. You might not like the fact that he is doing work on his own and he may not like the fact that he is doing work for you. Each party needs to make a decision about whether the benefits of this relationship are worth the hassle. If you REALLY want to keep the guy around, let him do his own thing on the side. If you don't give a damn about keeping him...well...let him go.


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## JeffL (Apr 19, 2009)

Im an evil sideworker! 

But, I've also bought every piece of equipment I own myself, will be insuring myself in the coming weeks, and work waaaaay outside the area my company works in. I basically 'subcontract' out as a climber for someone I actually met here on AS that runs a landscape business, as well as a few other landscapers in his area. Work has us at absolutely 0 overtime, and that's a tough cookie to swallow with a kid on the way, and a wallet accustomed to a 55+ hour work week. I'm just capitalizing on the opportunity. I'm not going to turn my nose up at a weeks worth of pay for doing god knows what, when I can double my income for 2 days of climbing on the weekend!

Not to mention the only local sidework I've done is for family, everything else is out of state.


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## randyg (Apr 19, 2009)

*Dear Boiling In Texas*

I thinks you did the right thing by not saying anything yet. The best leaders in the world have the best advisors, and make no decision without consulting said advisors. Five years x 2 is a long time. Don't throw that away before getting all the facts. What if they worked all day for free, some humanitarian cause that you would have liked to be a part of (I guess your equipment WAS a part of) perhaps? FIND OUT. Then you might establish guidelines for the future. Take away gear borrowing privledges and they will undoubtably buy their own climbing gear and saws and then you will find them doing even MORE work on the side to pay for it. "To get ANYONE to do something, you have to make them want to do it." If they were getting a little greedy, and they admit it (we can all tell you are a 'good guy', them too) and you let them know how it hurt your feelings, their own consciences may convict them. 

I wish you well, and WE are all looking forward to hearing how this turns out?


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## maloufstree (Apr 21, 2009)

I think I made a good decision not to say anything when I drove by the site, it gave me a few days to calm my nerves and get some great advice from other professionals(climbers and owners of AS). Well Monday morning before we left the yard we had "the talk". They explained to me that they were doing side work and from and what I gathered out of the explanation was that they thought that we had enough business for it not to matter. Well I explained to the guys my way of thinking and that equipment loans were over. The conversation lasted about an hour and everyone stayed very professional. I understand that I myself created the situation that had happened (loaning equip.) I really think these guys never thought of it the from a business point of view. I never asked how many times it had happened but explained that this was every ones fair warning. We loaded up and went to work, work went as if nothing ever happened. I hate to feel like I am holding someone back but at the same time I would hate to lose any of my clients of potential clients. I would like to try to figure out some sort of kick back to give them on any work brought to the business through them.(I haven't told them this) I know money is tight for everyone these days and can't blame a man for doing something he didn't feel was wrong(If he did or didn't) Thanks guys once again!!!!

Craig Malouf
Malouf Tree Care


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## clearance (Apr 21, 2009)

Thats great. Good for you and the best of luck to you and your guys. Five years is a long time in the tree world, you guys can make it for another five with the qualities you have.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 22, 2009)

maloufstree said:


> I would like to try to figure out some sort of kick back to give them on any work brought to the business through them.(I haven't told them this) I know money is tight for everyone these days and can't blame a man for doing something he didn't feel was wrong(If he did or didn't) Thanks guys once again!!!!
> 
> Craig Malouf
> Malouf Tree Care



20% commission on net. Use their actual payroll cost per hour, not just wage rate, and include a reasonable equipment cost.


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## Ghillie (Apr 22, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> 20% commission on net. Use their actual payroll cost per hour, not just wage rate, and include a reasonable equipment cost.



That sounds like a fair way to me. It will also enlighten them on the costs of doing business and how much your overhead really is.


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## prentice110 (Apr 28, 2009)

This is a hard one for me to reply to without being a hypocrit. My first boss was anal about me doing side work, and my second encouraged it. The first wouldnt let me take any thing that was his and the second would let me take any thing as long as it came back in the same shape it was lent out in. He would charge me a little for the big stuff, like the chipper and chip truck. When I went out on my own, I would never do that. The position that I still feel strongly about today is that no matter what, if they break something that is yours, they will never compensate you for it. This will lead to problems and can and will turn friends into enemies. The last time I loaned out a saw, i was 18 or 19, and it came back duller than Ive seen a saw to date. Id rather piss someone off by tellin em' no, than to piss em' off by rippin em' a new one when they bring my gear back F'ed up. Ive even told my X brother en law, a 30 year asplunhd ticket crew vet, trained by my old man, to piss off when he wanted to borrow a saw for a side job. He didnt talk to me for 2 months, but I had to stick to my desicion.


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 28, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> This is a hard one for me to reply to without being a hypocrit. My first boss was anal about me doing side work, and my second encouraged it. The first wouldnt let me take any thing that was his and the second would let me take any thing as long as it came back in the same shape it was lent out in. He would charge me a little for the big stuff, like the chipper and chip truck. When I went out on my own, I would never do that. The position that I still feel strongly about today is that no matter what, if they break something that is yours, they will never compensate you for it. This will lead to problems and can and will turn friends into enemies. The last time I loaned out a saw, i was 18 or 19, and it came back duller than Ive seen a saw to date. Id rather piss someone off by tellin em' no, than to piss em' off by rippin em' a new one when they bring my gear back F'ed up. Ive even told my X brother en law, a 30 year asplunhd ticket crew vet, trained by my old man, to piss off when he wanted to borrow a saw for a side job. He didnt talk to me for 2 months, but I had to stick to my desicion.



Yep your a hypocrit, you got where you are now because people helped you do side jobs and now you wont help others, even family.

Its just gear, I work as hard as anyone and pay twice or 3 times the price you do for the gear I have.
Im careful who I lend stuff to but I just hand it to them and when they grab it I say "this is a XXXX dollar piece of gear, its mine and Ive worked hard for it, you wreck it, you own it, you understand?" And dont let go until they have looked you in the eye, agree and know your serious. Or you sell them a chain to go with the saw and say you will buy it back depending on its condition.
Alot of my gear has come back in better condition that when it left, other things have been worked out. 
It might not make fiscal sence but when has being a good human being been profitable?

I will admit that I am probably to generous to be a good businessman!


Heres a question, who here HASNT done any sidework?


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## BC WetCoast (Apr 30, 2009)

And to turn this discussion backwards. 

What if one of your crew lets you use a piece of equipment he owns (and you don't and you don't really need it, but makes your job soooo much easier and efficient), whether it be small (hand tool) or large (ATV). And it's in the self interest of the crew member because it makes his job easier. How do you handle it?


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## prentice110 (Apr 30, 2009)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Yep your a hypocrit, you got where you are now because people helped you do side jobs and now you wont help others, even family.
> 
> I will admit that I am probably to generous to be a good businessman!



That has nothing to do with how I got to where I am, and I didnt lend my bro in law the saw cuz I had a feeling he was gonna pawn it for booze. And next time your feeling generous remember that your in buisness to make money, or to make people happy, and you cant(or very seldom)do both.


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 30, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> That has nothing to do with how I got to where I am, and I didnt lend my bro in law the saw cuz I had a feeling he was gonna pawn it for booze. And next time your feeling generous remember that your in buisness to make money, or to make people happy, and you cant(or very seldom)do both.



I do both, well so far I have managed it. I SUCK as a businessman though. I do jobs for war vets or elderly for less or sometimes free, I have stayed WAY overtime on a quoted jobs because my lab is having a great time with there kids, I do jobs on the cheap just because I love the tree, I get people to pay charitys instead of me on some small jobs, the other day I spent 3 hours on a quote in a garden because the elderly client fell over and hit her head and I didnt want to leave her alone, I try to chalk it up to karma of sorts. (but im also one of those avenging types with people that cross me, im no angel)

Im in business because I got sick of working for pricks and having clients let down by the screw ups of my boss and that I needed the challenge as I need to work my ass off to keep out of trouble. I also wanted the freedom to do the jobs I wanted, how I wanted and buy the gear I wanted.

If your bil was likely to pawn it then thats all fine, screw him and the horse he rode in on!


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 30, 2009)

Timber.....you're 'crazy' man.........and I like you more all the time. Good posting! It doesn't always have to be about money.

'Going into business for myself so I don't have to work for jerks' dittos, brother!


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## B-Edwards (Apr 30, 2009)

treemandan said:


> lend? Lend? LEND?! O M G ! First of all... oh nevermind but I will note this: You can borrow my tools if I can %$#@... like I said, nevermind.
> Sure if it was something at thier own residence but then I would just probably help them out anyway but that's about it. I would never think to borrow my employers tools in the fashion mentioned.
> Once I saw this guy borrow a 4x4 hub socket which he broke and tried to weld back together, he gave it back like that, was locked in a bathroom and had bottle rockets shot under the door for about ten minutes at him. There was no place to hide in there.



lMAO! I'm with The Dan!!!


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## wavefreak (Apr 30, 2009)

TimberMcPherson said:


> I do both, well so far I have managed it. I SUCK as a businessman though. I do jobs for war vets or elderly for less or sometimes free, I have stayed WAY overtime on a quoted jobs because my lab is having a great time with there kids, I do jobs on the cheap just because I love the tree, I get people to pay charitys instead of me on some small jobs, the other day I spent 3 hours on a quote in a garden because the elderly client fell over and hit her head and I didnt want to leave her alone, I try to chalk it up to karma of sorts. (but im also one of those avenging types with people that cross me, im no angel)
> 
> Im in business because I got sick of working for pricks and having clients let down by the screw ups of my boss and that I needed the challenge as I need to work my ass off to keep out of trouble. I also wanted the freedom to do the jobs I wanted, how I wanted and buy the gear I wanted.
> 
> If your bil was likely to pawn it then thats all fine, screw him and the horse he rode in on!



Dude, I like your style. I really hope it all comes back to you in spades some day.


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## loveroftrees (Apr 30, 2009)

I do both, well so far I have managed it. I SUCK as a businessman though. I do jobs for war vets or elderly for less or sometimes free, I have stayed WAY overtime on a quoted jobs because my lab is having a great time with there kids, I do jobs on the cheap just because I love the tree, I get people to pay charitys instead of me on some small jobs, the other day I spent 3 hours on a quote in a garden because the elderly client fell over and hit her head and I didnt want to leave her alone, I try to chalk it up to karma of sorts. (but im also one of those avenging types with people that cross me, im no angel)


I have to say, I really could have wrote this. I have helped alot of people for free or just good karma. I have done it with my crew and they even asked why I didn't take any $? I am older then the guys working for me and just let them know there is more to life then $... The rewards are far greater than a few bucks sometimes. When bidding jobs if we complete early they still get the full $. I also buy the breakfast and lunch most times. In return when I have asked to work when it was bitter cold or African hot they show up and work. I feel very blessed that I can do what I do and have the effect which has been very positive on their lives. bob


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## Thillmaine1 (Apr 30, 2009)

*Side Work*

When I lived in Boston I worked every saturday. got paid cash, whether i worked 1 hour or 8, but I never worked more then 7 hours. It was SWEET. The guy i worked for was a really nice guy, super understanding and would let me borrow what ever I wanted. All was great until I saw the Hartney truck in Harvard square one saturday morning with the manager and a foreman of mine. The manager gave me #### for weeks after. I thought it was bull, I mean if someone wants to make an etra buck then go for it. If your selling yourself on the bosses time, that a different story. I also used to sell plantings and landscape work when i worked for a retail nursery, but they didnt do that sort of work.
So the way I see it, to each his own, but no boss will ever tell me not to work weekends if he doesnt have work for me.


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## oldirty (Apr 30, 2009)

speaking of side work......just walked in from pine #2. did the first one yesterday after work. 

tomorrow i swing by both places and chip them up. should be about 3hrs total of chipping and driving. so at about 6hrs of good climbing and tomorrow's chipping i'll have put in about 9 or so hours of side work this week for 15hunge.

 
i might be dead ass tired but i wont need to go near the paycheck this week!


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## talloak (Apr 30, 2009)

You know I started out doing side work so Im not going to say its bad but the way its going its making for a lot of unexpected compotion and right now thats not what we need.


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## Raymond (Apr 30, 2009)

Nothing wrong with side work, just don't use me gear or trucks.

I did it in the past wth someone elses gear sure. 
And if I had got caught I would of took what I had coming.


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## tree md (May 2, 2009)

The guy I started out working for told me after a couple of years of working for him that if I wanted to go it on my own he would wish me the best and hope that he served me well as a teacher. I did go it alone on my own side jobs and he even helped me with equipment sometimes ,for a small fee,usually climb a job for him and I could use what ever I needed to do my side job. 

I also worked for a company where I was working with a more experienced climber and learning from him. We went out with a 3-4 man crew during the week but the owner would always have a small job for me and Henry (the more experienced climber) to do on Saturdays. It was never mentioned outright but the deal was me and Henry were allowed to do our small job quickly then go do one on our own if we could hustle it. The owner new what we were doing. It was kind of like a bonus to us for working hard 6 days a week. 

I tell anybody that works with me the same thing the first guy I worked for told me. If they think they can make it on their own then I will wish them the best. I did that with the crew I worked with last year until I found out they were trying to advertise and work in my name as well as claim my insurance. Now they set around with long faces because I work without them. Not good to bite the hand that feeds you.


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## Guarddog1 (May 2, 2009)

I think from a professional stand point this is a definite conflict of interest do not bite the hand that feeds you. They probably get work from referrals while on your jobs. I have learned most people are out for them.


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## TreeClimber57 (May 3, 2009)

maloufstree said:


> I have never had a bit of trouble out of these guys in five years, there not perfect, they've been late a few times, disagreement or two but at the end of the day they had always respected me as their boss. They run the jobs the way i want them ran, and in return I feel that I take good care of them. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just hate to let somebody go when Ive never had to talk to them about this.(Who knows how many times its happened)If letting them go is the only option,its the only option



I have let guys take home equipment for use on their own property once or twice, but they have to ask permission for it. Why don't you confront them, let them know you are aware and your position. If they are in fact good employees, they will respect your thoughts and likely make a better relationship going forward. Also will understand why you are not letting equipment go home any longer. It is a bit of a tough situation, but I think that may be best course of action to take.


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