# When do you replace chains?



## wdchuck (Mar 7, 2008)

What is the determining factor for you to replace chains, efficiency of the chain, remaining cutter size, too damaged/rocked to waste time sharpening, ...etc.., ??

Also, what chain manufacturer do you use, Stihl, Carlton, Oregon?

Do you instruct workers to swap out chains when they rock them, or the cutting efficiency drops(chips become dust)? 

One more, typical number of sharpenings after groundie use, before the chains get replaced?

As I was filing chains last night, the brain was trying to find the balance that will work for us, but would also like to know what others methods/mentalities are in regard to this. Stihl chains cost the most, so getting 'monies worth' seems to make sense, but then there's working efficiency to think of, whereas the other mfg's chains are less, and tossing them sooner for the sake of overall efficiency. 

Trying to shorten the learning curve on this one, thanks guys.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 7, 2008)

My determining factor is the useability of the chain. That means that damage and cutter size are most important to me. We hand file unless there is significant damage and then our dealer sharpens for us. Our previous dealer used to take off too much on a sharpening, reducing the useable life of the chain.

We use Stihl and Oregon chain. I haven't tried Carlton yet, but hear good things about its durability.

We swap chains "when we feel like it". That could be due to less efficient cutting, or a rapid dulling from finding an embeded nail or other foreign object. If we ever see dust rather than chips (except of course on some large branch unions), we swap out the chain rather than overheating the bar or overworking the saw.

Since all sawyers are different, all cutting conditions are different and all trees are different, there is no rule of thumb for how long a chain should last or how many filings can be done to a chain.


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## TDunk (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll file my chains right down to the witness mark if i can. If i just rock it a little bit, i'll file it. But if its too bad i'll just junk it rather than waste time trying to get one more use out of it. I like Stihl chain better, but i just buy Oregon chain when it's on sale in quantity. The Stihl is harder and last longer, but for me the cost is to high for all the longer the chains last. I personally don't buy chain for my groundies. They have there own saws etc. I provide PPE, but i pay them enough to fix there own epuipment. Plus i find that if there running there own equipment, they take better care of it. Tree work isn't my main income. It's more than a part time job, so i'm sure people here that do it for a living have diff. opinion


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## treemandan (Mar 7, 2008)

wdchuck said:


> What is the determining factor for you to replace chains, efficiency of the chain, remaining cutter size, too damaged/rocked to waste time sharpening, ...etc.., ??
> 
> Also, what chain manufacturer do you use, Stihl, Carlton, Oregon?
> 
> ...



It is hilarious this subject gets so drawn out but I am down. It usually comes down to the fact that precision is key to getting the hell out of there and getting paid while not having stupid problems stop you. Go out with the wrong stuff or stuff that is not right...
I do have a 200 that gets used for ground work and I, personally, will jam it into the twisted trunks of low growing shrubs with out a moments hesitation. It usually will have an older chain on it for that kind of thing but still, consider the fact that you can be upside down and operate it I don't use chains that have been around. When you operate a big saw you are supposed to be behind it and that usually is the case. If you run it while someone is front of you, well, you shouldn't. I wouldn't hang out there. I bit the safety bullet on the little chains because they do break. good chance of damage if it even just derails.
I have all the other rear handle saw chains sharpened professionally by the nitwit down the road. I think he charges me 6 bucks to screw them up for me but I don't want to do it myself even if I had a grinder . I think every 2 seconds of using them you have to adjust them and they require time as well. I keep a rotating stock of old chains and live for the day I use them up because then I get to make a shiney new one. I do get better results hand filing my own chains but i never have the time and when on a job it is to bothersome to stop and sharpen a big chain. Besides out in the field there is no place to sharpen a chain. The chipper is blasting away, you are digging around the tool box for a rusty file, its either freezing so you want to keep moving or its so hot sweat is dripping in your eyes, of course there is no shade, you just cut the trees down. I have plenty of chains on hand, they are made by Stihl. If your dealer is doing his job it should be around the same price as the others.If you have to order it I am sorry.


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## steelhead kid (Mar 7, 2008)

*drawn out, yes*

Did i miss something? sharpen the chain all the way to the mark, even a little after, when the width of the cutter starts to shorten its done. 

oregon and stihl chain round here .


chain sharpening forum???


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## StihlRockin' (Mar 7, 2008)

Many have and will mimic what I could say and add, so I'll remark on something else... increased training.

When I have taken special consideration to JAM the idea of keeping the chains out of the dirt, my efforts have mostly rewarded me, but sometimes those requests come after a constant barrage of reminders. There's always one who couldn't keep the saw out of the dirt to save his life. That's the guy who I try and not have operate the saw.

I'll teach everyone who will be handling the saws that I have special ways I want the brush/logs to be cut, then I'll show them, then remind them when I see them cutting haphazardly.

Spending that extra time to show that people HAVE to keep the chain out of the dirt is top priority, then explain the downfalls and time-wasting that occurs when such mishaps occur. When I've taken the time to explain to them, over-and-over to keep the chain out of the dirt, they WILL get it into their skull sooner of later!

*Stihl*Rockin'


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## Bermie (Mar 7, 2008)

Treemandan...'in the field there is no place to sharpen a chain'...'digging around in the tool box for a rusty file'...

Huh? Stump vice, cut a slot, bang it in, there's your place. You travel to work without an adequate supply of maintenance tools? No servicable files?

I keep chains till they are within a few mm of the witness mark, I have about three chains for each saw, so usually its a swap in the field, unless I've got time, then file em in place. I like to rotate the chains so they wear in to the sprocket, go through three chains, time for a new sprocket too.


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## wdchuck (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for the replies so far, I'm starting to get some ideas . Filed the last chain of a handful today, most of the cutters lost 30%+++ of remaining material to get them to fresh metal.


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## treemandan (Mar 7, 2008)

Bermie said:


> Treemandan...'in the field there is no place to sharpen a chain'...'digging around in the tool box for a rusty file'...
> 
> Huh? Stump vice, cut a slot, bang it in, there's your place. You travel to work without an adequate supply of maintenance tools? No servicable files?
> 
> I keep chains till they are within a few mm of the witness mark, I have about three chains for each saw, so usually its a swap in the field, unless I've got time, then file em in place. I like to rotate the chains so they wear in to the sprocket, go through three chains, time for a new sprocket too.



Oh yeah I have one if I ever need it, thankfully I have never have. Ten strokes each tooth on the big saws sucks anywhere.


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## treemandan (Mar 7, 2008)

wdchuck said:


> Thanks for the replies so far, I'm starting to get some ideas . Filed the last chain of a handful today, most of the cutters lost 30%+++ of remaining material to get them to fresh metal.



That is why I still take them to the shop, its a project.



If you are hand filing it is quicker to remove the bad material with a bigger file then shape it up with the right size, sometimes.


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## scottr (Mar 7, 2008)

wdchuck said:


> Thanks for the replies so far, I'm starting to get some ideas . Filed the last chain of a handful today, most of the cutters lost 30%+++ of remaining material to get them to fresh metal.



Wdchuck, if the chain is damaged, I use a raker file to remove the damage back to fresh metal then the round file to sharpen.


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## clearance (Mar 7, 2008)

Right to the bitter end.


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## wdchuck (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll have to try the aggresive file approach, although I'd rather the guys just swap the chains next time. We'll see, change comes slowly sometimes.


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## pbtree (Mar 8, 2008)

I file them to the line on the cutter - only file by hand. If it is too messed up to file by hand, then it gets junked. 

I always have 2-3 spare chains in the truck for whatever saws i am running, for those inevitable "Oh cr*&" moments in the field...


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 8, 2008)

clearance said:


> Right to the bitter end.



Indeed!

To the topic.

I let my groundies learn on old chains. They came to me yesterday wanting to know if they can have a new chain. I looked at them like they were out of there minds and winked. The one they had still has a million miles left to go. I asked them what was wrong with the one they had. 

It's not cutting. 

Sharpen it.

We need a review because we can't get it to sharpen.

These young guys are going to learn that they can't cruise through this industry with a bunch of head nodding to get me to shut up. LOL!

This is one of the best opportunities that I have to prove it. It’s all "fun and games" till the chips stop flying. Like the sixteen year old out chasing girls and brings the car home all screwed up. "Dad the car isn't running right, can you fix it."

No, I fixed it once already and showed you how. Now you're going to have to *work at it *and the next time I *teach you *something you might *listen the first time*. I'll advise, but you're the one with the hands on.


Therefore, old chains have an unseen purpose here to illustrate that there is more to all of this than meets the eye and this can set the stage for their future training and advancement in other aspects of the industry.

If you give them a new one (whether they keep it out of the dirt or not) they haven't learned a thing, nor are they likely to in other areas with respect to the desired depth of the knowledge they need to be ultimately safe, successful, productive and therefore profitable, either for a company or themselves.

Of course they may go on to never sharpening chains ever again, or digging through rusty files in an emergency while trying to remember what that old boss said. Chances are, if that is the attitude, they will be wishing that they had remembered other things that were said before it is all over.

In any event, those too involved to bother with sharpening can send your "old" chains to me. I'll pay the shipping.


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## buzz sawyer (Mar 8, 2008)

*Does anyone else do this?*

The guy who sharpens my chains when they are too bad to hand file will reduce the angle slightly as it get closer to the witness mark to maintain more of the tooth. I think he might go as much as 10 degrees less. Ive never seen a drastic effect on cutting speed.


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## hammerlogging (Mar 8, 2008)

to the bitter end, unless it gets rocked when its more than 60% wore out, then its probably trashed. Down to the marks, or further. They get sharpened "straight out of the box" and yes, 2-3 chains per saw, swap em or file em in the field. Whats it take to file in the field? Nothing but a file. Use new files, keep em clean and its much easier. An old chain cuts faster than a new one cause it has a narrower curf.

True,make your new groundies learn. Advise, instruct,l every once in a while show em what a sharp chain is really like, and don't let em run a dull chain. If its not throwing chips it ain't worth using.


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 8, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> to the bitter end, unless it gets rocked when its more than 60% wore out, then its probably trashed. Down to the marks, or further. They get sharpened "straight out of the box" and yes, 2-3 chains per saw, swap em or file em in the field. Whats it take to file in the field? Nothing but a file. Use new files, keep em clean and its much easier. An old chain cuts faster than a new one cause it has a narrower curf.
> 
> *True,make your new groundies learn. Advise, instruct,l every once in a while show em what a sharp chain is really like, and don't let em run a dull chain. If its not throwing chips it ain't worth using.*



I sharpen every weekend so we hit the ground running on Monday with chips in the air. They know when its played out and time for attention. If we are trying to beat the sun down I'll swap in a fresh chain.


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## grandpatractor (Mar 8, 2008)

Bermie said:


> Treemandan...'in the field there is no place to sharpen a chain'...'digging around in the tool box for a rusty file'...
> 
> Huh? Stump vice, cut a slot, bang it in, there's your place. You travel to work without an adequate supply of maintenance tools? No servicable files?
> 
> I keep chains till they are within a few mm of the witness mark, I have about three chains for each saw, so usually its a swap in the field, unless I've got time, then file em in place. I like to rotate the chains so they wear in to the sprocket, go through three chains, time for a new sprocket too.



Good post Bermie.Thats what I try to do also


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## B-Edwards (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm with Termitus, send me your old chains I would never have to buy a new chain again . When I get rid of a chain the teeth are breaking off and they still cut fine ( until too may teeth are gone). I use a Silvey chain grinder to sharpen chains, they only waste chain when an idiot or someone who doesnt care uses them. I use semi-round chisel and only Stihl chain (don't send me your used chains unless they are Stihl).You have to get the point back or it wont cut. If your running a saw you need to try to understand how it works from tip to tip. I had a small booklet that explained how and what a chain does while cutting. It was very informative. Hand filing does OK unless your doing it everyday for some fool who doesn't understand how to use a saw, but when you have that fool you will tire of it fast.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 8, 2008)

Yes I agree in this business you readily need to have on hand sharp spare chains,new files and the capability to touch up a dulled chain on the job site with a hand file.As an arborist I sharpen my own sawchain. A little advice unless your a NW Pacific timber faller or sharpen for a living don't bother with the bench mounted chain grinder or worse the Dremil. I made up a little jig that I can tighten in my bench vise and mount a bar and chain on it .Now I take a 4 1/2" angle grinder and ever so GENTLY bring back the rocked teeth to a good edge.I then finish with a file.Saves alot of time and files.I carry a cordless 4 1/2" angle grinder in my truck for those emergencies onthe worksite.Always sharpen back to the laser mark on the top plate but make sure you keep your bar rails tight or those little teeth will cut on, off and on again in the kerf [ not very productive].Laminated bars are impossible to tighten no matter if you hammer or use a bar rail closer tool.So for your ground saws make sure their not laminated.


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## Absolute2 (Mar 8, 2008)

I buy 100' rolls of chain for each saw and make my own. I have built up about 20-25 chains for each type of saw and when I start to run low on sharp ones I have one of my guys come in for a shop day and go to it with a grinder with diamond wheels (expensive setup but worth it). He can usually sharpen them all up and then I'm good to go for a couple months. If the chains have hit something too bad, rebar,brick or something of the sort they are usually not worth the effort even with a grinder. I try and have 5-6 chains for each type of saw with me in the field so we can just swap them out. the only exception is climbing saws, which we hand sharpen for that little extra bit of sharpness


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## adam (Mar 8, 2008)

there are some really good tips posted already. I try not to go to work with one chainsaw (big no-no) or get down to one chain for a chainsaw. I run Stihl only (2 x 660, 2 x 260, 2 x 200T and 038 "brasilian wonder") File by hand in a vice, on badly damaged chains I use Stihl grinding stones on a pneumatic grinder (I know, not everybody has a compressor in the workshop, mentioned above larger size files or flat file work very well). Gettig all the way to the witness mark makes me somehow happy. It's not always possible, if I hit a stone or a beer bottle (flushing stumps from multistemmed trees is always an adventure) with an older chain, I just trash it. There is also something, I do not understand; " long chains take more time to sharpen" - on 36" bar I use skip chain, and it takes same time to sharpen as full compliment on 24"...


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## adam (Mar 8, 2008)

I sharpen chains in "an instrument attached to a workbench, with two movable jaws between which an object may be clamped so as to leave the hands free to work on it" a.k.a. a vise. Picture shows when I give up on a chain.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 8, 2008)

adam said:


> I sharpen chains in "an instrument attached to a workbench, with two movable jaws between which an object may be clamped so as to leave the hands free to work on it" a.k.a. a vise. Picture shows when I give up on a chain.



I looked at your illustration what you would give up. I'd still sharpen it. Still lots of good life there. I can see why you get discouraged from using those small Stihl sharpening stones even driven by a air grinder would be slow and make alot of heat making future handfilling on that tooth next to impossible because of the tempering.When I wrote post#22 maybe I made it sound a little too complicated.The jig I built is just a 6"x 6"x 1/4" piece of steel with an old rim sprocket bolted on 1 edge of it and 2 bar studs on the opposite side, clamp the bottom edge in the bench vise put a guide bar on it now I can sharpen my weeks supply of dull chains on it. Grinding back a severly dulled chain with the powerfull 4 1/2" angle hand grinder and a course thin disc if done carefully won't heat up the tooth and is 10 times faster then those Stihl stones.Now the chain can be finished with the file.I run skip chain on all my ground saws from 18" up to 42".


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 9, 2008)

My procedure.

1. Locate pickup truck.

2. Lower tailgate.

3. Sharpen.

By placing the tip of the bar in the corner by the taillight with the butt of the saw against your pelvis you can generally keep it still enough to touch up the teeth. It gets a bit tricky with really big or really small saws but it's still my favorite on the job method. I take my teeth right down to the witness mark and keep my rakers just a hair below the tip of each tooth.


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## treeclimber jul (Mar 9, 2008)

Keep my saws always sharp, I also sharpen down to the line or past. I found that old sharp chains with more space between the raker and tooth, cut better in really hard wood, like old dead Black Locust.


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## CharlieK (Mar 9, 2008)

I have a nice bench grinder. I sharpen all my own chains all the time. I sharpen regularly, and just enough. It is easy to take off too much and overheat the chain and reduce the life of it, if you don't pay attention. If you do it yourself, and care, you will be surprised how much life you can get out of a chain. It only takes 3 to 5 minutes to do a chain, in the shop. I keep several chains around for each saw so in the field all I have to do is change them out. They last a long time if done regularly. 

I don't have patience for filing on a job site. Nor can I file straight and even. After filing badly, the grinder has to work hard to clean up the mess.

Grinders are good. But in the end, if filing works for you, have at it! 

I like my grinder.

Charlie K.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 9, 2008)

Yes I admit I have never owned a bench chaingrinder. I was seriously looking at buying one from Baileys a few years ago because I was frustrated from all the files I was going thru since starting my tree service 9 years ago. I never cut metal in a tree when I was logging years before. Now its every 2nd tree.
But a few years ago while in the shop filing a pile of battered chains,I saw my angle grinder lying there and gave it a try, got the disc between the depth gauge and cutter and zip the smashed corner was gone down to good corner again.All I know is how to file so then I forgot about Bailey's grinder.It is not a proud thing to do even looks kind of stupid using a big angle grinder on my chain but it works for me.


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## wdchuck (Mar 9, 2008)

Go away for a weekend to cut wood and this thread has matured like a fine wine.
Thank you all, for the great info, it will be compiled as a chapter in a noobie/groundie training manual, to be referenced often, and on site reminders, as they learn and build confidence.

And if this doesn't do it, they'll be filing chains until their fingers cramp.....lol.


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## Bicboro (Apr 15, 2008)

Don't listen to hammerlogging. He never knows what is going on, I never use chains as long as the manufacturer recommends. How can you. There is no way to keep the teeth even unless you use a bench grinder( which then one side still has a lift). And then, do you want to be the one that a piece of shard metal lodges into? I recommend 6 sharpening's then call it quits.


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## clearance (Apr 15, 2008)

Bicboro said:


> Don't listen to hammerlogging. He never knows what is going on, I never use chains as long as the manufacturer recommends. How can you. There is no way to keep the teeth even unless you use a bench grinder( which then one side still has a lift). And then, do you want to be the one that a piece of shard metal lodges into? I recommend 6 sharpening's then call it quits.



WTF? With bells on. 

All I have ever used is a hand file. For over 20 years, filed every chain till there was almost nothing left, still do. Never been stuck with a piece of steel, (not from a saw) steel doesn't get infected anyways.


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## (WLL) (Apr 15, 2008)

clearance said:


> WTF? With bells on.
> 
> All I have ever used is a hand file. For over 20 years, filed every chain till there was almost nothing left, still do. .


x2 - a few years. lol. and i was thinking clearance was a young gun


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## hammerlogging (Apr 16, 2008)

thanks fellas. this guy just sought me out all over the place. I could have posted my responses in the back of a book in the library of congress and he would have found it, but I chose in the logging forum under BC engineering or something. Look up this guys posts and check out how hes barraged nice hammer. Yes, i'm opinionated, but hell, thats cause I know what I'm talking about.

Keep on filin'. J


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## RPM (Apr 16, 2008)

He found you there too....in the Logging forum...thought you were p*ssed at me at first but I see whats going on now -had to read it a couple of times. I too file down to a nubbin - why not? Good chain isn't cheap - I usually keep a couple of those around for dirty work.

Keep posting HL - diversity and experience in this forum is what keeps me returning.


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## pdqdl (Apr 16, 2008)

*Why file all the time ?*

To answer the original post: I take my chains down to the witness mark, if the chain lasts that long. Every part of a chain can wear out, and if any are worn out or damaged beyond repair, pitch it.

Regarding the issue of how far to sharpen the teeth: it's ok to take the teeth back to the witness mark, but I haven't heard anyone mention taking down the depth gauges. The shorter the _length_ of the tooth (not the height!), then it becomes more important to increase the cut depth by adjusting the depth gauges. On a relatively new chain, I like 30 thousandths clearance. Aggressive cut, tolerates a little more wear before it starts making sawdust instead of chips. As the tooth gets closer to the witness mark, there is a greater tendency for the chain to rock backwards from the proper cutting angle, and I increase the grind on the depth gauges to 35-40 thousandths clearance to compensate. Lower the depth gauge to much, especially on hard wood or with a weak saw, and you have made the chain impractical to use.


For all you dedicated hand filers: Do you take a brand new chain and hand file it before you use it? You don't think that Stihl has an army of mountain gnomes hand filing all their new chains do you? They come from the factory sharpened by a grinder.

The old argument about how hand filing is better than machine grinding is not true. It *is* true that bad grinding is worse than bad hand filing. It's easier to damage a chain with a grinder, because it has more horsepower and goes a lot faster.

Just like hand filing, sharpening with a machine made to do the job takes a bit of training. If the operator doesn't know what he is doing, or doesn't care, then the result will be poor sharpening or damaged chains.

My humble opinion on the whole topic is this: hand file when you are in the field, and don't have a replacement chain or mobile grinder. Small chains or chains that are only a little dull can often be hand filed quicker than you can dismount the chain. If it's quicker, hand file it. It's all about money, and time is money. I can bench grind a dull 20" chain MUCH faster than anyone can hand file to equal sharpness. I can have a stack of chains sharpened faster than most people can drive to a dealer twice to deliver and then pick up chains.

If anybody wants to learn how to use a bench grinder, there are lots of places to learn. If you use chainsaws for a living, you will save money. A tree service not owning a chain grinder is about as silly as a tire repair shop not having a tire machine. Sure, you can get by without it, but why ?

Spend the extra $200 for the BOROZON wheel (some people think they are diamond wheels, but they are not). They _cut_ the steel, rather than abrading it. Almost no heat involved, and the filings don't even burn up. It is actually difficult to burn a chain tooth with that wheel, which can still be hand filed because it was never burned by the bench grinder.


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## pdqdl (Apr 16, 2008)

HolmenTree said:


> Yes I agree in this business you readily need to have on hand sharp spare chains,new files and the capability to touch up a dulled chain on the job site with a hand file.As an arborist I sharpen my own sawchain. A little advice unless your a NW Pacific timber faller or sharpen for a living don't bother with the bench mounted chain grinder or worse the Dremil. I made up a little jig that I can tighten in my bench vise and mount a bar and chain on it .Now I take a 4 1/2" angle grinder and ever so GENTLY bring back the rocked teeth to a good edge.I then finish with a file.Saves alot of time and files.I carry a cordless 4 1/2" angle grinder in my truck for those emergencies onthe worksite.Always sharpen back to the laser mark on the top plate but make sure you keep your bar rails tight or those little teeth will cut on, off and on again in the kerf [ not very productive].Laminated bars are impossible to tighten no matter if you hammer or use a bar rail closer tool.So for your ground saws make sure their not laminated.



Ok. I'll admit you can sharpen a chain that way, but can you completely sharpen another tooth every 4-8 seconds ? That sounds like more work than just plain hand filing. That's all the time it takes on a bench grinder, and they do it with perfect accuracy, if you make sure they are working right.


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## grandpatractor (Apr 16, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> For all you dedicated hand filers: Do you take a brand new chain and hand file it before you use it? You don't think that Stihl has an army of mountain gnomes hand filing all their new chains do you? They come from the factory sharpened by a grinder.
> 
> The old argument about how hand filing is better than machine grinding is not true. It *is* true that bad grinding is worse than bad hand filing. It's easier to damage a chain with a grinder, because it has more horsepower and goes a lot faster.
> 
> .


I disagree with this. I know that I can file a chain and make it cut faster than a brand new out of the box. It does take practice and after a while they may not cut as smooth as a new. I eyeball pretty well but I know that I can't keep them as even as a grinder. I can run a couple tanks thru usually before my chains cut like a new out of the box. I'm not bragging and I know others that can. Just stating the Facts. lol


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## hammerlogging (Apr 16, 2008)

Since there is a depth gauge for each and every tooth, and, atleast with the depth gauge I use, each "raker" is filed exactly to each tooth to which it corresponds, it doesn't matter if your teeth are different sizes. As long as you file your depth gauges as needed, I personally touch them up every three filings or so, then your chain will be cutting as perfectly, or better than, out of the box.


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## HolmenTree (Apr 17, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Ok. I'll admit you can sharpen a chain that way, but can you completely sharpen another tooth every 4-8 seconds ? That sounds like more work than just plain hand filing. That's all the time it takes on a bench grinder, and they do it with perfect accuracy, if you make sure they are working right.



When I say "rocked chain " I mean 1/3 of the tooth gone . Thats when I use the 4 1/2" grinder. You are saying your grinder can sharpen that in 4-8 secs! Man thats going to take some major pressure and heat, which in turn tempers that tooth to hardness where a file in the field could never touch it.And even if you could keep the heat down what kind of sharp ,durable edge are you going to have? 

I know it sounds silly using a 4 1/2 grinder. As a faller I never had to use it ,every chain was hand filed from start to finished. One main saw and you looked after it. Since starting the tree service as an arborist ,now its many more saws,rocks and steel in the wood , I never cut steel in trees when I was logging in the wilds. I can now take a pile of rocked chains grind them all back to good chrome and then do my tried and tested hand filing.
Hand filing is talent not everyone can do unless they keep doing it and keep it up. I can round and chisel bit file equally well both ways ............. because I keep doing it and keep it up. I modify sawchain for timbersport competition and a hand filed chisel bit tooth cuts more efficently and faster then a square ground tooth [ a file is flat and a grinding wheel is curved] A chisel cuts more efficently with a flat taper not a curved taper.

Hand filing is an art to be proud of . When you can feel the tooth as you file it you tend to understand it better, and in turn with enough practice you can do it with perfect accuracy and speed.


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## Freakingstang (Apr 17, 2008)

I use brand new chains until they don't cut anymore then put a new one on. The old chain goes to the scrap/recycle yard to help with the purchase cost of new chains.

That is what the rental shop does........:monkey:


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## Freakingstang (Apr 17, 2008)

HolmenTree said:


> When I say "rocked chain " I mean 1/3 of the tooth gone . Thats when I use the 4 1/2" grinder. You are saying your grinder can sharpen that in 4-8 secs! Man thats going to take some major pressure and heat, which in turn tempers that tooth to hardness where a file in the field could never touch it.
> 
> I know it sounds silly using a 4 1/2 grinder. As a faller I never had to use it ,every chain was hand filed . One main saw and you looked after it. Since starting the tree service as an arborist , many more saws,rocks and steel in the wood , I never cut steel in trees when I was logging in the wilds. I can now take a pile of rocked chains grind them all back to good chrome and then do my tried and tested hand filing.
> Hand filing is talent not everyone can do unless they keep doing it and keep it up. I can round and chisel bit file equally both ways ............. because I keep doing it and keep it up. I modify sawchain for timbersport competition and a hand filed chisel bit tooth cuts more efficently and faster then a square ground chain [ a file is flat and a grinding wheel is curved] A chisel cuts more efficently with a flat taper not a curved taper.
> ...





Good post. Some people would chit their pants if they saw how much I filed a tooth back on a new chain for play chains. I say play chains becuase I don't race, but would like to get into more local competitions if the work schedule permitted it. Kinda hard to enter a comp when you are 2-3K miles from home.....


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## Ollie B (Apr 17, 2008)

scottr said:


> Wdchuck, if the chain is damaged, I use a raker file to remove the damage back to fresh metal then the round file to sharpen.



I just started using a raker file for all of my chains. That square tooth seems to have really increased my saw's efficiency.


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## Freakingstang (Apr 18, 2008)

Ollie B said:


> I just started using a raker file for all of my chains. That square tooth seems to have really increased my saw's efficiency.



IT is also more prone to dulling by dirt/sand ingestion. 

Welcome, it is nice to have another square filer on board. We are few and far between


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## 046 (Apr 18, 2008)

used to laugh at folks who changed out chains, rather than take the 3-4 minutes to hand sharpen. 

have switched to square cut chains and joined ranks with folks who changes out chains. instead of hand filing. 

normally carry a dozen extra chains, consisting of different sizes, square and round. round cut for dirty wood and/or stumps. square for everything else, except 200T which I still hand file. 

difference is 100ft bulk chains and a simington square grinder. making a batch of 10 extra chains, then sharpening is not a big deal. factory chain is not near fast as a properly ground square chain. using an 8in grinding wheel means less chance of overheating your tooth. 

yes... you do have to modify your cutting habits for square chain. like only cutting to where wood has no chance of hitting dirt. then rolling over log for the rest. 

really spoils you.... always cutting on sharp square chain!


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## Ollie B (Apr 18, 2008)

046 said:


> yes... you do have to modify your cutting habits for square chain. like only cutting to where wood has no chance of hitting dirt. then rolling over log for the rest.
> 
> really spoils you.... always cutting on sharp square chain!



So why exactly does a square filed chain get dulled faster when it hits dirt?


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## 046 (Apr 18, 2008)

square tooth is ground with a thinner supporting edge than round ground chain. because of cutting edges being more aggressive, square cuts faster, but is more fragile. 

my fresh ground square cuts aprox. 25% faster than round... your mileage may veri..

it's debatable long each stays sharp, square vs round when cutting only clean wood. no question square dulls immediately upon contact with dirt. vs round will tolerate dirty wood much better. 

both dull quickly after hitting a rock and/or iron. 

it's a moot point for most folks as price of entry is a square chain grinder. new square chain grinders start at $800 range and go up to $2,500 range.. flat ridiculous! but that's what happens when silvey is the only game in town. only other option is finds used square grinder. which are like hens teeth. 

someone posted here that they had one for sale for $250.... jumped on that, sent paypal within minutes. total costs with shipping $290. 

had to go through entire machine, but simington 450 came right back up. setup was not the easiest without a manual, but with help of several folks on AS... got simington purring..

without question one of the best buys... I've ever done!!!



Ollie B said:


> So why exactly does a square filed chain get dulled faster when it hits dirt?


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## pdqdl (Apr 18, 2008)

grandpatractor said:


> I disagree with this. I know that I can file a chain and make it cut faster than a brand new out of the box. It does take practice and after a while they may not cut as smooth as a new. I eyeball pretty well but I know that I can't keep them as even as a grinder. I can run a couple tanks thru usually before my chains cut like a new out of the box. I'm not bragging and I know others that can. Just stating the Facts. lol



Sorry. The shape of the wheel where it contacts the tooth is the same as the file. So...it all boils down to technique. No matter what type or shape of sharpening you put on the tooth with your round file, I can duplicate it with the bench grinder.

I fully support hand filing, because it works very well for the experienced, and I have never seen anyone burn a tooth with a hand file. Sometimes it is faster than taking the chain off the saw and using a grinder. But that doesn't change the fact that it is usually faster and more accurate to use a machine to do the same job. Put an idiot on the grinder, and you can ruin a chain in just a couple of minutes.

Time IS money, when it comes to sharpening chains. Get a good grinder, and you won't go back.


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## pdqdl (Apr 18, 2008)

*NEVER burn a tooth*



HolmenTree said:


> When I say "rocked chain " I mean 1/3 of the tooth gone . Thats when I use the 4 1/2" grinder. You are saying your grinder can sharpen that in 4-8 secs! Man thats going to take some major pressure and heat, which in turn tempers that tooth to hardness where a file in the field could never touch it.And even if you could keep the heat down what kind of sharp ,durable edge are you going to have?
> 
> (rest of quote deleted)



No, the Borozon wheels pull right through the metal and don't change the temper of the tooth. It's amazing. Almost like using a metal lathe to cut machine threads: it's not generating much heat, since it cuts the metal, rather than grinding it away.

All your other points are valid, and I don't disagree about the old fashioned stone wheels taking away the temper if you hurried through a sharpening. But with a little patience, even a stone wheel does not burn the tooth, and it's MUCH faster than hand filing a rocked chain.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE (Apr 19, 2008)

*2.00 Each Sharp*

I always hand file my chains when i can. If i'm pressed or just got one that's really ate up guy in the saw shop at the farmers co-op here in town does a mean number on them for 2.00. I'm a husky man, but stihl's chain is hard to beat. Kinda like a sore peter!!!LMAO!!


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## kennyplay (Apr 22, 2008)

*electric versus hand*

Hello, read your quote. being a certified guy, and saw that you use a bench grinder and hand, i thought i would ask you. 
My friend has a hand filer, attaches to the bar. However, I am considering this one

http://onlinestore.forestindustry.com/scripts/granbergint/G1012XT.html 

I think this can only take 3/16, 5/32 or 7/32 files. 12 volt DC...i think it only fits up to 7/32.. 

I run a Stihl 034AV super, 3/8" .050 66 drive links. Through Bailey's, I've gotten Woodsman pro (30RC) which recommends using 7/32 file. However, the same chain 3/8" .050 66 links for a Stihl chain (33RMC) recommends 13/64 file. I was taking my chains to a hardware/saw dealer to get them sharpened. They just "slice" them off. I want to file them right, with a curve. I now have an assortment of woodsman pro and stihl chains, that need sharpening but with different files. I would like to get the DC chain filler. Have you , or anyone you know had experience with it? My friend has one similar to this one , hand filer

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHAINSAW-CHAIN-...ryZ85915QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem 

This one says it can take all size files...

I like the Stihl chain best, get a great price on them, the same as the Woodsmanpro when I buy 2 or more but I don't think I can use the motorized DC sharpener because it does'nt take 13/64 file. I would appreciate any and all of your thoughts ..Thanks



TreeCo said:


> I get all of the use I can out of a chain. Even when the teeth get short they can still be sharpened to cut well. I use all Stihl chain and Stihl chain has a 'witness' mark on the tooth at the point where the chain is no longer usable. I use both a bench grinder and hand filing and haven't taken a chain to someone to be sharpened in over 20 years.


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## kennyplay (Apr 22, 2008)

*Question about file size*

Hello, I have a Stihl 034AV Super. I switched it over to 3/8 pitch .050 with 66 drive links- 18" bar. Stihl telld me that I need 13/64 file for their Stihl chain. 

I also bought some Woodsmanpro, (same specs) and they say use 7/32...

Question, I want to run a Granberg G1012C DC electric grinder but they only carry 3 files. 1 of which, the biggest is 7/32. They Granberg told me that 7/32will work for the Stihl chain. Yes, I can use a 13/64 file manually, but I would like to use the DC grinder. 

What are your guys thoughts on this??? thanks


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## HolmenTree (Apr 22, 2008)

Kennyplay ,stay away from the grinder. If you want to grind spend a couple 100 more and get a decent bench mounted grinder. But in all reality to be a knowledgable saw man, learn to file , even with the Stihl bar mounted filer you can learn your angles better then going blindly free hand if you have no experience.On a full size 3/8 chain I always start with a 7/32 when the cutters are new , then switch to the smaller 13/64 or 5 mm when the teeth are filed about 1/2 ways.


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## pdqdl (Apr 23, 2008)

kennyplay said:


> ...
> My friend has a hand filer, attaches to the bar. However, I am considering this one
> 
> http://onlinestore.forestindustry.com/scripts/granbergint/G1012XT.html
> ...



I don't like the little DC sharpener's for two reasons: In my very limited experience, they are not a bit faster than hand filing. 2nd reason: the little bitty stones that they use wear down VERY fast, and end up having the wrong shape to do a good job. If you waste the money on the diamond files, they retain their shape well, but go deathly slow on sharpening.

Regarding hand filing jigs of all varieties: I have never seen an experienced tree worker using one of them. After you learn the proper shape of the cutter you are using, everybody seems to throw the hand filing jigs out. I have only seen a couple that even seemed to do the job right.

You will find that getting the angle and depth precisely right is not really that important. Getting the point filed sharp and the right amount of "hook" on the cutter is. Learn to look for that tiny glint of light reflecting off the point of the cutter. File until it disappears.

Most bench grinders use a 3/16ths thick wheel to sharpen 3/8th pitch chain, which duplicates the curvature of a 3/16th file. Whether you use the 7/32 file or a barely smaller variety, it won't make any real difference. I have always wondered why we grind with a thinner wheel than we file with, and I think it is because the file uses it's larger curvature to create the cutting angle on the tooth. If you used a 3/16ths file, you would need to file with a downward pressure at roughly 60 degrees to get "the perfect angle": a little bit tricky. The bench grinder is usually set at 60 degrees, and gives a perfect face-angle. You could use a thicker wheel, and exactly duplicate the cut of the file, but it would require a more careful depth setting.

Some fellows like to give the chain a steeper or shallower face angle, according to the type of cutting they are doing. This is part of why so many are dedicated to hand filing.

File size: use whichever you prefer. I always thought the 7/32 was just a little bit large, but the chains cut fine when you are done sharpening with it. It is easier to use than a 3/16th file on that size chain. I suspect that Stihl just likes to sell their specialty files, although I think I would prefer that size. 

Never used a 13/64, I don't think they are listed in my Oregon book.


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