# Do loggers really cut "200 trees/day"?



## softdown (Dec 30, 2021)

Watched a show with two experienced Oregon loggers discussing the industry and their own experiences. One of them did not want his son to follow in his foot steps. He felt the profession was too dangerous and cited the "many close calls" he had seen. That is all very easy to believe. 

The show went on to claim that this logger cuts up to 200 trees a day. I have two thoughts about that:
1) It would be extremely dangerous to cut that speed.
2) I find that number hard to believe. This was Oregon logging, the trees tend to be of substantive size. 

As for me I feel more like ~30 big cut trees is a solid day. Though nowhere close to being a professional logger. If I was expected to cut more than ~50 trees/day I would quickly walk away. I feel like such high speed cutting is asking for a major disaster. How is one going to deal with widow makers etc. with no inspection whatsoever?


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## northmanlogging (Dec 30, 2021)

200 is a bit of a stretch, unless you're talking mechanized. 

realistically if your just dumping, no limbing or bucking, about 50 in 6 hours, maybe more if your in smaller timber.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 30, 2021)

Also, your probably watching Haxmen, in which case take everything you see on that show through a lens of made for tv drama.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 30, 2021)

They may have a few veins of sizable wood but the bulk of the cutting is 2nd & 3rd growth Fir. Quite small and few snags. Most days they would have no processing and 97 to 99 out of every 100 will go down the hill without consideration for a wedge. Very little brush to brush out.
It's just side hill, base-to-base, undercut,back-cut.

I could probably do that job?
They do the same wood..day after day.
a lot of trees that they market for private owners and such are often to small to be in my tree count.

Cut Mountain Pine that were 7 to 11" and three of us hit 90 trees per gas tank in big beetle sites. Wasn't big sites or small trees all the time but everything under 6" stumps.
We would compete with each other.
Not the safest. If it still hadn't fallen to the east then we would leave them standing until you past back on the back row keeping all in lay.

200 trees?
Say there were all a 20" average then 3 minute trees would get you 120 trees in 6 hours. 2 minute trees 180 per day. Doesn't see too hard.


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## catbuster (Dec 30, 2021)

I mean… I’ve seen some guys & gals on the big bike handled clearing saws slash at least that many saplings in a day.

But real trees that are require a not kid-sized chainsaw? That’s 33 trees an hour by the standard west coast faller day and 25 by the rest of the world. No freakin’ way. Even if you were opened up and just dumping, the saw can’t cut fast enough, and then there’s movement between trees and at least looking up for a quick assessment. And the saw needs gas & oil, air filter knockouts, chain sharpening or swaps, and on and on.

The best I ever did in an hour hand falling was 21-dumping a mix of straight, burned ~18” evergreens with a _fast _saw, my 395 with a square chain. I felt like I was going lightning fast and taking chances at that pace-and other than being dead, you have a better view of standing hulks post crown fire for hazards than live trees. My best day was 98. That day I didn’t have any obstacles and we were cleaning up fire kill. That’s still a tree every 4 minutes-too damn fast to do a good size up and cut. I’m not a great faller by any means, but an average day for me just tipping straight evergreen trees is probably ~50-60. Limbing & blocking to length drops everything by half and oversize drops that number to 15-20-based in six hours working. It is what it is, that dude is full of it.


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## softdown (Dec 30, 2021)

You are certainly an eloquent poster, thanks for that. You sort of brought up the point that few of us manage much more than "several hours" of serious work/day. I doubt that I spend more than 33% of my time actually felling trees when felling trees. Wedge work, gas, oil, chain tightening, drink of water, take a leak, pet the dog, take a break, check the phone, assessment, etc., etc., etc. 

Then we have a tendency to compare a 20 pound tree to a 2000 pound tree. Still catch myself doing that. Perhaps we ought to measure how many inches are cut?


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## catbuster (Dec 30, 2021)

softdown said:


> You are certainly an eloquent poster, thanks for that. You sort of brought up the point that few of us manage much more than "several hours" of serious work/day. I doubt that I spend more than 33% of my time actually felling trees when felling trees. Wedge work, gas, oil, chain tightening, drink of water, take a leak, pet the dog, take a break, check the phone, assessment, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Then we have a tendency to compare a 20 pound tree to a 2000 pound tree. Still catch myself doing that. Perhaps we ought to measure how many inches are cut?



It’s not a rare thing for fallers to be paid by the board foot here in the US and by the cubic meter in parts of the world while doing piece work. With smaller trees hourly may be a better way to go, especially on pre commercial thinning. It just depends on what you’re cutting.

The last couple of jobs I had cut where in garbage wood and I paid hourly-$50 for someone supplying their own equipment. If you’re in decent wood, it’s not rare to gross $330-350 per day paid per board foot. Helicopter outfits will do even better, but there are reasons for that, mostly the remoteness of where you’re working and the difficult terrain. I mean, let’s face it-if nobody will put a yarder on the ground, it’s probably not fun to walk around, much less work in.

There are a ton of variables in faller pay, and production. My personal preference is to be paid by the hour. It’s easy to bill, there’s no question or argument to be had of quantity or scaling, and if I have a bad day I still get paid wages-with the understanding I’ll make an effort to make up for the bad day. Falling per board foot can get somebody into trouble pushing pace, being that they get tunnel vision on production. High production is good and all, but going home in the same shape you got to the site is more important.

I appreciate the kind words about seeing the bigger picture. I think a lot of people forget about the “ancillary” activities that go alongside the main focus of every task. That was a hard lesson learned at a very young age in an industry that is unforgiving to forgetting the ancillary parts of project or task management.


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## NorthernMaverick (Dec 30, 2021)

I was dropping poplar this afternoon. 12 trees in 2.5 hours, 3 needed mild wedging, keeping them in a general lay direction, and brushing them out / topping them. Trees were 8" - 18" on the stump. Saw (562) was sharp when I started, and I stopped to top fuel / oil once. That's honest cutting, sitting down, drinking water, clearing junk around the base, looking for junk up top, not being lazy, just being able to walk out on your own two feet when your done. 3 times that amount in a day and I would say I had a great day, and I don't see myself ever going over 50 trees per day, unless were talking pine in rows, 8" and under. Whoever can cut 200 sawlog size trees in a day with a handheld powersaw is either full of b******t or he's superman.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 31, 2021)

Going off what I normally cut, just to give my math some substance, average tree takes me about 5 minutes to put on the ground, without wedging, but doing it safely. 
I get about 45 minutes to the tank of fuel, and will take a few minutes to refuel me and the saw 
so I figure an average of 7 minutes to the tree for good marketable timber. 
6 hour day is 360 minutes 360/7=51.47 
Anybody that can do 4x that in timber worth hand falling... is probably on meth.


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## ArtB (Dec 31, 2021)

50 years ago when young and energetic clearing my own land I thought it was a good 10 hour day to fell 5 or 6 ea 24" DF, but that included limbing, bucking, and then dragging 200 ft plus stacking with an old D2.


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## slowp (Dec 31, 2021)

Maybe "they" consider precommercial thinning to be logging? But back in the dark ages, we didn't count trees, we counted acres.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 31, 2021)

slowp said:


> Maybe "they" consider precommercial thinning to be logging? But back in the dark ages, we didn't count trees, we counted acres.


Still do. 1/2 acre was what they like to see in the white-wood in Alaska and BC in the Hemlock & balsam.(Hem-bal) Half an American football field or .2 Ha (40×50 metres)
If any Faller gets paid production in coast falling in BC then that would be by area and not volume.
They will put you in the nicest-biggest trees you ever seen where you can reach back and grab your gas. Only people that will do that are the people that nobody wants anymore.


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## slowp (Dec 31, 2021)

One of the expert fallers will say that today's fallers have it more dangerous because they cut more trees and therefore spend more time at the base of a tree, which is the danger spot.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 31, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Going off what I normally cut, just to give my math some substance, average tree takes me about 5 minutes to put on the ground, without wedging, but doing it safely.
> I get about 45 minutes to the tank of fuel, and will take a few minutes to refuel me and the saw
> so I figure an average of 7 minutes to the tree for good marketable timber.
> 6 hour day is 360 minutes 360/7=51.47
> Anybody that can do 4x that in timber worth hand falling... is probably on meth.


No dia average was said by the OP.
Anyway I gave a 20" trees example but I doubt it would be that on average.
I have seen Hand Fallers clear cutting little gang poles in Oregon lately.

2 minute trees at 20" gets you on the door step at 180 trees.

I came out with 436 sq ft for 200 trees. 2.18 sq ft per face area. In
proportion to volume I minused hinge and add angle cut with slope % increase. Estamated 554 sq ft per 200 trees. A 36" tree is 7 cu ft.
Applying the same formulas then it increased to 9 sq ft per free.

554 ÷9= 61.5 trees per day felled only.

61 trees at 36"


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 31, 2021)

slowp said:


> One of the expert fallers will say that today's fallers have it more dangerous because they cut more trees and therefore spend more time at the base of a tree, which is the danger spot.


The more the trees the more the assessments the more chances to miss. On going action, too. The better ground gets cut first as well.
I know Fallers that said they would fell and buck one tree and fall the second one and that was the day.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 31, 2021)

Westboastfaller said:


> No dia average was said by the OP.
> Anyway I gave a 20" trees example but I doubt it would be that on average.
> I have seen Hand Fallers clear cutting little gang poles in Oregon lately.
> 
> ...


2 min on a 20" tree? Maybe? (i.e. big maybe) with a fast saw and a fresh chain, but that doesn't account for walking to it, or assessment of any type, it also assumes you are cutting literally non stop for 6 hours. 

Granted if they are only 20" they are probably fairly thick, and hopefully you wouldn't need to wedge to many over, but its still going to be an ass load of work to hit 70 in a day. Especially since this is prime buncher sized wood, and if its being hand fell, then its probably on cow faced slopes.


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## softdown (Jan 1, 2022)

ArtB said:


> 50 years ago when young and energetic clearing my own land I thought it was a good 10 hour day to fell 5 or 6 ea 24" DF, but that included limbing, bucking, and then dragging 200 ft plus stacking with an old D2.


Wait, I thought bucking and limbing was the same thing. I prefer the word limbing since we are cutting limbs. No idea where the word bucking came from.


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## lone wolf (Jan 1, 2022)

softdown said:


> Wait, I thought bucking and limbing was the same thing. I prefer the word limbing since we are cutting limbs. No idea where the word bucking came from.


Bucking is cutting logs.


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## softdown (Jan 1, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> 2 min on a 20" tree? Maybe? (i.e. big maybe) with a fast saw and a fresh chain, but that doesn't account for walking to it, or assessment of any type, it also assumes you are cutting literally non stop for 6 hours.
> 
> Granted if they are only 20" they are probably fairly thick, and hopefully you wouldn't need to wedge to many over, but its still going to be an ass load of work to hit 70 in a day. Especially since this is prime buncher sized wood, and if its being hand fell, then its probably on cow faced slopes.


About 1/2 of my trees go over easy. I spend 80% of my time with the other 1/2 that find some way to challenge me.

I just can't see falling non stop. I can limb a few trees without stopping but feel like assessing things is appropriate after falling a big one. But I'm no faller. My instincts give me all kinds of warning flags to non stop falling with no assessments. I've had a tree on the foot and notice the dozens of kind of close calls - my saw gets within inches of me when limbing. That is why I like a small, light limbing saw - I limb at an extremely rapid rate. Sometimes an entire tree in a couple minutes if the limbs are right. That may not be wise but it is how I roll. Falling is an entirely different realm for me - that raises all kinds of red flags.

Falling can easily kill me. Limbing could as well but a cut is far more likely.


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## lone wolf (Jan 1, 2022)

softdown said:


> About 1/2 of my trees go over easy. I spend 80% of my time with the other 1/2 that find some way to challenge me.
> 
> I just can't see falling non stop. I can limb a few trees without stopping but feel like assessing things is appropriate after falling a big one. But I'm no faller. My instincts give me all kinds of warning flags to non stop falling with no assessments. I've had a tree on the foot and notice the dozens of kind of close calls - my saw gets within inches of me when limbing. That is why I like a small, light limbing saw - I limb at an extremely rapid rate. Sometimes an entire tree in a couple minutes if the limbs are right. That may not be wise but it is how I roll. Falling is an entirely different realm for me - that raises all kinds of red flags.
> 
> Falling can easily kill me. Limbing could as well but a cut is far more likely.


Lots of dangers ! Broken pieces above , Barber chairing etc.


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## softdown (Jan 1, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Lots of dangers ! Broken pieces above , Barber chairing etc.


I just removed a widow maker that was resting on someones roof. Made $300/hour and felt like they got a deal. I used the bucket truck for the roof area and also used it to pull over the tree after I cut through ~ 75% of the base. A 15,000 lb dually in 4WD low is pretty good at yanking. This was mountainous terrain.

Widow maker on the roof is pretty interesting. Operation was a bit "exciting".

Every day with a chain saw sees dozens of "possible threats" Reasons that logging is always #1. Pressure to operate at high speed will assure that it keeps that position.


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## softdown (Jan 1, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Bucking is cutting logs.


My memory varies from perfect to dogshit. Don't know how I forgot that.


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2022)

Uh, bucking and limbing on a steep slope are also inherently dangerous. This is why one starts their strip from the bottom of a unit, and works up. When I checked bucking practices, I made sure to walk around the unit and then across the top of the recent cut. Often I'd hear a roll roll roll and see a log start others going down the hill. High stumps are not very effective on a steep slope. Logs roll. That was in clearcuts, but partial cuts have moving logs also. 

Falling starts from the bottom, yarding from the top, except in downhill yarding and then those guys better be on their toes. I never figured out how they downhilled safely on some of the clearcuts.


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2022)

Also, was watching two guys and a dad take about 20 minutes to fall a small tree. Dad was on the road with coffee cup in hand, he's a former faller and really knows his stuff, son is a good faller, other guy was learning. They were working the tree around, against the lean and it was a learning experience. Dad was yelling about wedging, son was rolling his eyes, and the learning guy was trying to make it work. The tree was inclined to hit the road, they listened to dad, and the tree went in the direction they wanted. Can't think of what they called the cut, but it worked.


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## rwoods (Jan 1, 2022)

Not a pro and certainly not agreeing with any claim that a logger falls and bucks 200 trees a day for logs, but the more experience you have the quicker you can assess a given situation. 

Also not saying folks should unnecessarily speed up, however, from the videos posted from time to time there are folks that may have textbook perfect falling cuts but spend so much time at a stump that another competent faller would have 2 or 3 on the ground in the same amount of time. Usually a lot of leaning over the saw and around a partially cut stem to inspect progress that in my opinion is either unnecessary or should be done by stepping back and around the stem. Bore cut falling seems to attribute to this. With experience, one should have a good feel for where the bar is in relation to the hinge regardless of your falling methodology.
Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2022)

rwoods said:


> Not a pro and certainly not agreeing with any claim that a logger falls and bucks 200 trees a day for logs, but the more experience you have the quicker you can assess a given situation.
> 
> Also not saying folks should unnecessarily speed up, however, from the videos posted from time to time there are folks that may have textbook perfect falling cuts but spend so much time at a stump that another competent faller would have 2 or 3 on the ground in the same amount of time. Usually a lot of leaning over the saw and around a partially cut stem to inspect progress that in my opinion is either unnecessary or should be done by stepping back and around the stem. Bore cut falling seems to attribute to this. With experience, one should have a good feel for where the bar is in relation to the hinge regardless of your falling methodology.
> Ron


I do find it silly when the bar is long enough to constantly be peeking at the off side, however, on bigger trees or when the bar just isn't enough, I end up cutting by brail a lot, sure its easy enough to walk over to the off side and nip the corner, but thats also wasted motion, its easier to peek over and check progress... 

As for limbing, it can be just as dangerous as falling, pretty much every time i've been around someone thats gotten cut by a saw, its from limbing and generally with a saw that is small, more often then not cowboy homeowners that insist on "helping" and "proving" they are just as fast with a small saw. 

They are only faster because they are in my ******* way... 

the benefit of using a longer bar for limbing is that the bar will more likely hit dirt before hitting your foot, benefit of using the bigger power head is powering through bigger limbs like butter, sure its heavier, but it not that bad after a couple days, and there are several techniques that take advantage of the longer bar, least of all the ability to walk the top of a log and still hit the limbs on the side without blowing a disk, or fighting through all the slash you just created or walking a log 10' in the air... not to mention you don't have to hike back and grab a second saw to buck or fall with, you just have the one saw and in the darkness it binds them... etc...

Anyway, i've had this conversation with a whole slew of folks that "knew more then I ever will" one of them eventually ended up in litigation, he was that convinced I didn't know what I was doing.... (he refused to pay me, despite coming in a month early, and $3000 under budget... so... yeah..) one of his claims was that I would of been faster and less work to use a top handle saw to limb 4' dia cedar, one of these guys got real feckin stoned, charged out in front of me and proceeded to nearly cut his foot off with his little ms 171... He at least stopped getting in the way after that.


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## rwoods (Jan 1, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> I do find it silly when the bar is long enough to constantly be peeking at the off side, however, on bigger trees or when the bar just isn't enough, I end up cutting by brail a lot, sure its easy enough to walk over to the off side and nip the corner, but thats also wasted motion, its easier to peek over and check progress...



No problem with the above. I do the same. But I try to step back on those stems that I think might start moving. Some of the dead or rotten stuff I cut you never know when it is going to let go. 

Ron


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2022)

Also, another safety point. Cut your limbs so there is nothing poking up--no stobs/pig ears. Flush cut. Saw a guy who didn't bring his caulks slip and land flat on his back on the log. He thanked his son for limbing the log properly. Although his back was sore, there were no punctures. The same goes for stumps. Cut any stump pull off. Eliminate as many hazards as you can, which might take some extra time.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2022)

rwoods said:


> No problem with the above. I do the same. But I try to step back on those stems that I think might start moving. Some of the dead or rotten stuff I cut you never know when it is going to let go.
> 
> Ron


oh for sure lol, snag falling is a whole nother set of issues, anything can and will happen, so as much distance as you can keep the better. 


slowp said:


> Also, another safety point. Cut your limbs so there is nothing poking up--no stobs/pig ears. Flush cut. Saw a guy who didn't bring his caulks slip and land flat on his back on the log. He thanked his son for limbing the log properly. Although his back was sore, there were no punctures. The same goes for stumps. Cut any stump pull off. Eliminate as many hazards as you can, which might take some extra time.


couple weeks ago when I got clobbered by that limb, I was looking down at a big stob, I was planning on werking ahead of it, but I stopped to cut it flush... when I finished and was plotting my next steps is when I got hit, threw me right on top of where that big stop was... probably would of pierced a lung or at the very least broke a couple ribs... again...


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## Jacob J. (Jan 1, 2022)

On straight-falling jobs (where you're dumping stems straight down the hill and leaving the butts up), it's pretty common for an experienced faller to get 2-300 stems/day. 

I've personally witnessed guys that can get 400 in a day. I've seen guys that can fall a softwood that's 16-18" on the stump in 45-50 seconds.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 1, 2022)

It depends how many of them are there ;-)


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2022)

Jacob J. said:


> On straight-falling jobs (where you're dumping stems straight down the hill and leaving the butts up), it's pretty common for an experienced faller to get 2-300 stems/day.
> 
> I've personally witnessed guys that can get 400 in a day. I've seen guys that can fall a softwood that's 16-18" on the stump in 45-50 seconds.



I counted 32 in about 26 min, which admittedly is kicking some ass. or 360 a day, which doesn't sound sustainable. 

that said, at least 1/3 where dead standing, small or otherwise unmarketable stuff I wouldn't even consider counting in a day of falling. 
And a further at least 4 where already crippled before dude started filming, which brings us down to a more reasonable 16 marketable trees in 26 minutes or 96 per day. less still if you consider fueling etc. 

Also I might add that only about 5 of them were what would be considered saw logs around here, the rest was pulp wood. 

not trying to be nit picky or anything but making claims of 200-400 trees a day by claiming the dead snags and huckleberry bushes is pretty douchey. 

Annnnd while pushing trees is sometimes needed, Making a habit out of leaving 4-5 standing while working up 2-3 other trees, then coming back to get the ones you prepped... maybe... is a pretty ****ing good way to get dead.


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## rwoods (Jan 1, 2022)

My count was a little higher - 36 stems (snag and trash included) in 25 minutes of saw running. 

Before most of the posts, I wrote a long post about the OP didn't give (and probably didn't have) a proper context for the 200 trees a day statement. I included a comment about clear cutting - but didn't post as the lack of context was oblivious. I don't see anyone here claiming to hand fall 200 20" trees and buck them into logs in a day. 

Ron


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## softdown (Jan 1, 2022)

So if I gain timber rights I can hire some loggers here and count on at least 200 18" trees/day. Cool. I'm off to negotiate some timber rights.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2022)

softdown said:


> So if I gain timber rights I can hire some loggers here and count on at least 200 18" trees/day. Cool. I'm off to negotiate some timber rights.


the problem with reading... 

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious. either way lemme know how that works out for ya


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 1, 2022)

All you need know to do is put up the
raw-haw and count your return.

That was to the OP's last post but I'll leave that open


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## Jacob J. (Jan 1, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> not trying to be nit picky or anything but making claims of 200-400 trees a day by claiming the dead snags and huckleberry bushes is pretty douchey.
> 
> Annnnd while pushing trees is sometimes needed, Making a habit out of leaving 4-5 standing while working up 2-3 other trees, then coming back to get the ones you prepped... maybe... is a pretty ****ing good way to get dead.


It's not my video but the individual who posted the video has been cutting for many years now, so I think he's got a good handle on what he's doing. I'm not aware of any of the current pro guys who can get 2-300 stems per day counting the snags or huckleberry. Have you ever worked up a large clear cut straight-falling job on a high lead show? If not, I can certainly put you in contact with some guys who are doing that work, and you can go see it for yourself. 



rwoods said:


> My count was a little higher - 36 stems (snag and trash included) in 25 minutes of saw running.
> 
> Before most of the posts, I wrote a long post about the OP didn't give (and probably didn't have) a proper context for the 200 trees a day statement. I included a comment about clear cutting - but didn't post as the lack of context was oblivious. I don't see anyone here claiming to hand fall 200 20" trees and buck them into logs in a day.
> 
> Ron


It's situation dependent - a straight-falling gig involves very little manufacture in the brush, and that's where the stem count comes into play. On a cable-yard commercial thinning job where the timber is decent, and the logger needs at least one long run taken off, most guys here are averaging 65-80 stems/day. Older growth timber where most of the manufacture is done in the brush will drive the stem count much lower. 

Really though, it's not about stem count so much as it's about "loads per day" when you're busheling. Nice timber on easy ground can net many more loads per day than a straight-falling gig on steep ground where a load comprises 70-95 sticks per. Cutting for a helicopter side can be an even more mixed bag because you have to consider how the loads will be bundled and in that case, it's all about weight. You can have to work within the allowable for whatever helicopter you have working the job.


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## Dennbb (Jan 1, 2022)

softdown said:


> Watched a show with two experienced Oregon loggers discussing the industry and their own experiences. One of them did not want his son to follow in his foot steps. He felt the profession was too dangerous and cited the "many close calls" he had seen. That is all very easy to believe.
> 
> The show went on to claim that this logger cuts up to 200 trees a day. I have two thoughts about that:
> 1) It would be extremely dangerous to cut that speed.
> ...


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## Dennbb (Jan 1, 2022)

softdown said:


> Watched a show with two experienced Oregon loggers discussing the industry and their own experiences. One of them did not want his son to follow in his foot steps. He felt the profession was too dangerous and cited the "many close calls" he had seen. That is all very easy to believe.
> 
> The show went on to claim that this logger cuts up to 200 trees a day. I have two thoughts about that:
> 1) It would be extremely dangerous to cut that speed.
> ...





softdown said:


> Watched a show with two experienced Oregon loggers discussing the industry and their own experiences. One of them did not want his son to follow in his foot steps. He felt the profession was too dangerous and cited the "many close calls" he had seen. That is all very easy to believe.
> 
> The show went on to claim that this logger cuts up to 200 trees a day. I have two thoughts about that:
> 1) It would be extremely dangerous to cut that speed.
> ...


It's not doable.


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## 2dogs (Jan 1, 2022)

I worked the same project several years in a row where I cut 200 or more trees per day. Other guys cut more than I did. Most of the trees were willows with a few other species thrown in for variety. The trees were not bucked very often and other guys drug the trees to the chipper. In later years I spent my time on the tractor backing the chipper up as the trees came down. The trees were in the 3"-6" range, only a few were larger.


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## calamari (Jan 2, 2022)

softdown said:


> Wait, I thought bucking and limbing was the same thing. I prefer the word limbing since we are cutting limbs. No idea where the word bucking came from.


I always thought that limbing was bumping knots but I never worked for a commercial timber company and I'm old.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2022)

Jacob J. said:


> It's not my video but the individual who posted the video has been cutting for many years now, so I think he's got a good handle on what he's doing. I'm not aware of any of the current pro guys who can get 2-300 stems per day counting the snags or huckleberry. Have you ever worked up a large clear cut straight-falling job on a high lead show? If not, I can certainly put you in contact with some guys who are doing that work, and you can go see it for yourself.
> 
> 
> It's situation dependent - a straight-falling gig involves very little manufacture in the brush, and that's where the stem count comes into play. On a cable-yard commercial thinning job where the timber is decent, and the logger needs at least one long run taken off, most guys here are averaging 65-80 stems/day. Older growth timber where most of the manufacture is done in the brush will drive the stem count much lower.
> ...


I have not, at least not on a tower side, shovel logging yes many of them. but I do know the difference between mowing down pulp wood vs marketable timber, and I have been cutting for quite awhile now myself. 
Pushing trees is dangerous, anybody thats been doing it for awhile should know that, pushing more then a couple exponentially more dangerous with every stem you cripple, ****ing off and dropping a couple sticks next to them, then maybe working your way back to them crippled trees is about the dumbest ****ing thing I've seen put to video since the fabled ladders and chainsaws video. This cutter is young, if he wants to get old, he should maybe think about gravity for awhile.


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## slowp (Jan 2, 2022)

calamari said:


> I always thought that limbing was bumping knots but I never worked for a commercial timber company and I'm old.


Bumping knots is usually done at the landing. There are often stobs and limbs on the underside of the log that the faller couldn't get so the chaser cleans up the log.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 2, 2022)

calamari said:


> I always thought that limbing was bumping knots but I never worked for a commercial timber company and I'm old.


Nah, bumping is just another spec on your spec wood.
The expression is as American one.
I met guys in Alaska that were hired for just that job. It's more associated with export softwoods in the PNW but may very well be over used (misused )and said for cleaning up the branch breaks on yarded wood. Limbing in softwood is flush with top of the branch collar. "bumping knots" is fairing in the swollen branch collars and groath bumps where needed.

Now that's my understanding anyway. JJ would know. It's another stage in export timber that Fallers don't do in that region.
I do in the UK in hardwoods such as sweet chestnut for fence poles and posts. Can do it with the peeler going back and forth but is hard on blades and better with saw when limbing.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 2, 2022)

Writing at the same time. Is it not associated more with export?


slowp said:


> Bumping knots is usually done at the landing. There are often stobs and limbs on the underside of the log that the faller couldn't get so the chaser cleans up the log.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> Writing at the same time. Is it not associated more with export?


its fairly standard for all mill wood (not necessarily needed for pulp) if its hand fell and limbed, then likely one side will still have stobs and lumps that were missed. So the logs get rolled so the stubs can be knocked off. 

its more to do with our type of debarkers then anything, ring type that encircle the log, then the log is shoved through, big stobs and lumps will hang up on the mechanism and cause all sorts of trouble, so either the poor SOB that runs the debarker has to bump them, or its done after grading. 
Because of this it can potentially get the log culled, one or two stobs isn't a big deal usually, but if one whole side of the log is covered in 4" long 4" dia stobs... they mill gets upset in a hurry. One of the buyers at one of my favorite mills, used to run their debarker, (its a pretty skookum show that builds folks up from pushing brooms to potentially being CEO, its employee owned and operated) anyway every step of production the guys working there worked at the position before and so on....anyanyway...the buyer is younger then me, and he's super open about what the mill needs and wants, just a few minutes talking to him will change your perspective on what makes a good log better, or worse.

For mechanized processing, its pretty much a non issue. 

the other benefit of bumping knots is that the logs will sit better on the truck, meaning the driver won't have to stop 15 times on the way to the mill to tighten wrappers, and for stuff like cedar you can maybe even get 1-2 more logs on before you're over height


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2022)

an example ring type


vs flail type


the old export yard here, would debark before shipping, or now days stuffing containers, I think they still do? but ownership of the yard has changed hands and a lot of the old machinery has been sold off... and I haven't been in there in several months... they are still exporting kinda... as Old DT45 pretty much sold them down the river with the china trade war, the Korean, Japan, and Canadian markets weren't nearly as robust as the china market combined.


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## rwoods (Jan 2, 2022)

Hate to fall into either type, I would get more than a trim and a shave. Ron


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## sb47 (Jan 2, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> Also, your probably watching Haxmen, in which case take everything you see on that show through a lens of made for tv drama.


Exactly. Those shows are geared for entertainment and fake drama. They call them reality shows but they are far from reality.


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## slowp (Jan 2, 2022)

I also mostly heard it called knot bumping over here on the eastside. Can't think of ever hearing it called knot bumping on the westside.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 2, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> its fairly standard for all mill wood (not necessarily needed for pulp) if its hand fell and limbed, then likely one side will still have stobs and lumps that were missed. So the logs get rolled so the stubs can be knocked off.
> 
> its more to do with our type of debarkers then anything, ring type that encircle the log, then the log is shoved through, big stobs and lumps will hang up on the mechanism and cause all sorts of trouble, so either the poor SOB that runs the debarker has to bump them, or its done after grading.
> Because of this it can potentially get the log culled, one or two stobs isn't a big deal usually, but if one whole side of the log is covered in 4" long 4" dia stobs... they mill gets upset in a hurry. One of the buyers at one of my favorite mills, used to run their debarker, (its a pretty skookum show that builds folks up from pushing brooms to potentially being CEO, its employee owned and operated) anyway every step of production the guys working there worked at the position before and so on....anyanyway...the buyer is younger then me, and he's super open about what the mill needs and wants, just a few minutes talking to him will change your perspective on what makes a good log better, or worse.
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. So @calamari is right then, it's part of limping of the 4th side or at times what is left on all 4 sides on a 'down the hill, Bill' show.
I was a dry sort bucker for about a week in '89. The export got extra collar work. May well have been specs for that client though?

Good vids. I would like to research more.


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## calamari (Jan 2, 2022)

In the logging shows here in central Calif. in the 1960s the entry level job was taking the chokers off and "bumping knots' at the landing as others have pointed out. If you do that for awhile and don't puke, faint or quit, you were considered a serious prospect. I don't recall machine barkers back then and for damn sure no harvesters. Everything was skidded with a cat around here and nobody escaped with their hearing intact.


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## slowp (Jan 2, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> Writing at the same time. Is it not associated more with export?


Nope. All the outfits I've been around have cut off the limbs and stobs that survive the trip to the landing. I always thought that was what the mill demanded. Exporting is illegal off federal land, except for odd exceptions about incense and Alaska yellow cedar and logs from Alaska...


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## sb47 (Jan 3, 2022)

31 overnight with clear sky's this morning.


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## Northerner (Jan 3, 2022)

I know a few older loggers that used to hand fall spruce on the commercial side of things. 
200 trees would be a slow day. Not talking giant trees, but when it came to avg 12” trees they got a lot more than 200 trees cut down.


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## Cricket (Jan 3, 2022)

softdown said:


> I just removed a widow maker that was resting on someones roof. Made $300/hour and felt like they got a deal. I used the bucket truck for the roof area and also used it to pull over the tree after I cut through ~ 75% of the base. A 15,000 lb dually in 4WD low is pretty good at yanking. This was mountainous terrain.
> 
> Widow maker on the roof is pretty interesting. Operation was a bit "exciting".
> 
> Every day with a chain saw sees dozens of "possible threats" Reasons that logging is always #1. Pressure to operate at high speed will assure that it keeps that position.


Like this one?


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## softdown (Jan 4, 2022)

Just a simple 90 degree snap about 10' off the ground. Bill was $750. Much of that was for the increased risk, trip, emergency day before Christmas, and bucket truck. They got lucky it didn't punch a hole in the roof. Holes in the roof are a chore.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 4, 2022)

I eat 100 trees for breakfast


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## rwoods (Jan 4, 2022)

With a little ketchup and hot sauce, or just salt and pepper?

Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 4, 2022)

rwoods said:


> I don't see anyone here claiming to hand fall 200 20" trees and buck them into logs in a day.
> 
> Ron


As it was pointed out to you..We would assume the statement of 200 trees was not to include any bucking.
20" Was A diameter that I thought was achievable within the right circumstances. I am sure I have at least matched those numbers with bigger trees but that was with an excavator raking the flat ground and pushing my trees when needed.
Three more excavators following..pulling stumps,raking branches & running logs.

In perspective I've limbed Cedar,Fir & Arbutus on a job that had smaller trees on rock for other property developments. The trees had to be limbed down to 6" tops and cut to 20' lengths for a container for firewood. Get a saw log when I could. 8 trees an hour it worked out. Some took 1.5 minutes and some cedar were 15 minutes to fell & process.
1 excavator pulling stumps and getting logs down and pilling brush.
He even drove rock truck for 2 days and was soon on my azz again.

Hemlock-Balsam production whilst Heli-Falling.
Top of saw log has to measure 17" at 27 ft (8.3 m) is the smallest. 17" at 37 (11.3) is the next size. You need about 28" tree to make a 27 ft × 17". Spruce need 20" top and Yellow cedar 15".
Not uncommon to find a acre block of Hem-bal in the middle of a cedar stand. All of it can be undersized and It's just a slaughter. All the junk down the hill with lots of top weight on them. It's fast going.

There are certainly jobs that make anyone look ordinary.


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## rwoods (Jan 5, 2022)

Wbf,

That was my point, a bunch of discussion without sufficient context. My statement was meant to remind folks that no one was claiming the falling and bucking of 200 20” trees. 

in the right circumstances, most of us could fall 200 trees a day. But only a few could fall 200 20” trees in typical circumstances, and likely no one can repetitively fall and buck 200 20” trees a day.

None of my posts were meant to be a jab at you. Last one was just having fun visualizing a plate of trees as if they were French fries.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 5, 2022)

rwoods said:


> Wbf,
> 
> That was my point, a bunch of discussion without sufficient context. My statement was meant to remind folks that no one was claiming the falling and bucking of 200 20” trees.
> 
> ...


as for french fries...

having run self loather long enough now, I can say that most folks that claim to cut 200 trees a day, it looks like a plate of french fries when they are done.


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## fossil (Jan 5, 2022)

You guys are obviously forgetting Paul Bunyan and Blue.


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## catbuster (Jan 5, 2022)

fossil said:


> You guys are obviously forgetting Paul Bunyan and Blue.



And of course, Big Joe Mufferaw.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 6, 2022)

fossil said:


> You guys are obviously forgetting Paul Bunyan and Blue.


look man, that many steroids isn't something to be proud of..., cool cow though.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 6, 2022)

rwoods said:


> Wbf,
> 
> That was my point, a bunch of discussion without sufficient context. My statement was meant to remind folks that no one was claiming the falling and bucking of 200 20” trees.
> 
> ...


All the OP said was that they were of substantive size. Meaning considerable or good enough size.

I have cut bundles of 1"×2" × 8ft ×4ft×4ft with a ported 3120 and done 52 packs in 1 hour 45 min. That's 832 sq ft of dry wood. They are bound together tight with steel bands.
That's 1/3 more volume in 1/3 the time, than 200 20" at approximately 550 sq ft

That is best case scenario. Volume can be overcome to an extent. Size of the trees is certainly not the main factor to make or break that 'number'.

I agree, I personally can work with his description of size but it does leave it open for many many different opinions.

It's set up to get people pitting against one another. People feel the need to defend their manhood or convince how it can or/and can't be done..as I am.

Anyway, you didn't take a couple shots at me? because that is what the thread was designed to do..silly.
Lolzz

Now we can move on to the 'danger part' that was raised in the OP next.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 6, 2022)

softdown said:


> The show went on to claim that this logger cuts up to 200 trees a day. I have two thoughts about that:
> 1) It would be extremely dangerous to cut that speed.


I personally have low consentration when I go slow. Same as driving at lower speeds. People think I'm drunk. Don't get me to hold a ladder for you or road sign.


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## rwoods (Jan 6, 2022)

Wbf,

You were the first one to add a context. I didn't challenge it, nor did you make any claim to fall and buck 200 20" trees per day though it seemed that some were taking your post that way. Pitting folks against each other is not my definition of fun. If you want a jab from me, how about I don't believe you can eat 100 trees for breakfast without ketchup and hot sauce. That's the best I got. 

Ron


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## wowzers (Jan 7, 2022)

I’m on the forestry side of things now but when I was still logging we got paid piece price and for the saws to make more than us in the rigging they would have had to cut that or more. Even when I would go saw I’d cut well over 100. Our wood varied from 8” to big enough you had to bridle them with two chokers and the average being steering wheel sized . This was also for a line machine where you typical only had to trip them unless it was way over size then you knocked a log off. Log making happened on the landing

We skidded between 300-500 trees with an under cut in them per day. So to not run out of wood they had to be knocking down quite a bit a day.


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## Cfaller (Jan 7, 2022)

How many a day do you think he is cutting?


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## rwoods (Jan 8, 2022)

While I am trespassing in the logging forum, I say we ask how many trees did you fall today, or before lunch if you can't count that high. I will go first. Today before lunch: ZERO. Access road was blocked and fuel filter on tractor was a block of ice. After lunch: ONE. Actually two, but I don't usually count trees that are just in my way. Spent the rest of the day skidding previously felled stems, bucking 10' to 12' lengths and stacking. At this rate given time off for vacations, family obligations, bad weather etc. that would be about 30 trees *a year*. Of course, today was not typical, but even so I average *far less* than 200 20" or greater trees *a year* though at times I may fall dozens of plate and saucer size trees before lunch. My low count is one of the reasons I hang out in this forum - trying to learn how to be better at something I enjoy doing.

The tree of the day - 90 foot ash.



Either the top or middle section; I don't remember which. Picture was taken for my McCulloch friends who fear I have gone over to the dark side with the 500i. 


Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 8, 2022)

rwoods said:


> While I am trespassing in the logging forum, I say we ask how many trees did you fall today, or before lunch if you can't count that high. I will go first. Today before lunch: ZERO. Access road was blocked and fuel filter on tractor was a block of ice. After lunch: ONE. Actually two, but I don't usually count trees that are just in my way. Spent the rest of the day skidding previously felled stems, bucking 10' to 12' lengths and stacking. At this rate given time off for vacations, family obligations, bad weather etc. that would be about 30 trees *a year*. Of course, today was not typical, but even so I average *far less* than 200 20" or greater trees *a year* though at times I may fall dozens of plate and saucer size trees before lunch. My low count is one of the reasons I hang out in this forum - trying to learn how to be better at something I enjoy doing.
> 
> The tree of the day - 90 foot ash.
> View attachment 954702
> ...


today is Saturday... I'm not even wearing pants, even took a nap before lunch, might take one before dinner too.


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## rwoods (Jan 8, 2022)

NM, too much detail in your post. I see I forgot to add to the list of interruptions that pesty day job thing.

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 11, 2022)

I thought Northman drove a Ford pickup.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2022)

rwoods said:


> I thought Northman drove a Ford pickup.
> 
> Ron



grrr... I do... that commercial gives me hives lol, sure a "stock" chevy... uh huh with a modifed rear end and trans uh huh. Kinda like the now famous bowtie commercial about fords "aluminum" beds (the deck is steel) getting a hole tore in it, when the chevy faired way worse...


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## wowzers (Jan 12, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> grrr... I do... that commercial gives me hives lol, sure a "stock" chevy... uh huh with a modifed rear end and trans uh huh. Kinda like the now famous bowtie commercial about fords "aluminum" beds (the deck is steel) getting a hole tore in it, when the chevy faired way worse...


Hopefully it has some modified brakes!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2022)




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## Westboastfaller (Jan 12, 2022)

slowp said:


> Nope. All the outfits I've been around have cut off the limbs and stobs that survive the trip to the landing. I always thought that was what the mill demanded. Exporting is illegal off federal land, except for odd exceptions about incense and Alaska yellow cedar and logs from Alaska...


Well yeah. I was talking about doing extra, not less, like bumping swollen branch collars in export logs.

Exporting of raw logs from BC has been law and outlawed since 1890s


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## rwoods (Jan 12, 2022)

Remember Volvo’s station wagon ads about how strong and safe they were but were later proved to be false. I believe most manufacturers exaggerate, even our beloved saw manufacturers.

Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 12, 2022)

Cfaller said:


> How many a day do you think he is cutting?



He's smooth. Good eastern lean and all easily turned to the s-se. Probably doing about 60 tree an hour there to start. A couple of cuts in the film in the first tank. The one leaning in a tree that he was tickling..I would have cut the inside of the hold wood to the outside corner to allow it to turn on the outer square & roll out while it had momentum. Wouldn't risk hanging it' for the sake of one correct stump especially if it is salvage wood.
At 50 tree an hour would put him at about the 300 mark.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 12, 2022)

It is like a marathon. You get used to holding the same pace through each tank all day.


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## Huskybill (Jan 25, 2022)

There was a logger here from vt who cut 100 trees a day. He had a 750 skidded one of the biggest in ct. this was decades ago.


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## slowp (Jan 27, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> It is like a marathon. You get used to holding the same pace through each tank all day.


This is true, 'cept for the tank part, of a lot of forestry work.


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## Dave1960_Gorge (Feb 10, 2022)

Yea, seems high. Back in 1987 I had a job in Portland for a tree service run by an old logger; crew I was on just cleared lots, he had a pruning crew as well. Learned to climb with spikes and run a skidder. Lucky I didn't get killed -- no company policy about PPE or much training at all. Three or four guys could clear a 1/4 acre lot and leave everything chipped, chip piles bladed, and a log deck by the road in a day (we had better do it in a day -- boss liked to scream and yell if he thought we were slacking). Probably 15 trees with logs worth putting on the log deck for milling or firewood on average; maybe a few leave trees in the lot corners. 

Every branch, top, windfall, smaller tree and shrub was run through the chipper by hand. The chipper was "custom" as in redneck build: blades in your face type (which the boss would touch up with a grinder without taking them off), no safety features, a 500 cui gas engine, straight pipes 6 ft. high with a bend at the top (handy for warming your wet cloves), and huge aircraft tires for off-road. Sounded like a stock car when you fired it up. Sometimes you had to duck out of the way of a pencil stub like piece that shot back at you. If it choked on too much brush and you didn't hit the clutch lever in time, there was hell to pay for the melted belts (but he wanted us to work faster?!). We sometimes caught air with it driving down the road (kind of on purpose).

Climbing was to haul the wire rope from the big drum winch up a tree if it had a bad lean- boss didn't think we needed a lighter synthetic rope -- what are you pussies? The winch was so powerful you only had to go up around 20 ft., but the cable got heavy fast. Made the mistake of sliding down the line one time instead of down climbing on spurs; pants shredded to my crotch, lucky I kept the family jewels. 

There was that job on the Tualatin Golf Course where we almost dumped a 4 ft. fir on a green -- because we had the cable too low. So we were supposed to climb 60 ft. with it? I still remember how the carrot shaped tree (lots of water and fertilizer) just kind of shivered and wouldn't go over, with the wheels of the skidder starting to lift. Could have used a logging jack! Nasty timber (three loads) with knots up to a foot in diameter all got sold for low grade studs. Years later I actually did put a wire rope logging cable that high in a big pine with a bad split -- but first I rigged a block and had my groundie pull it up with a poly rope (I helped from up top as well).


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## Huntaholic (Feb 10, 2022)

Theres all different types of logging. Around here nobody has ever heard of, let alone seen or used a highline operation. If I was on ground decent enough to run a harvester and was doing pine/pulpwood, I could see 200 trees a day easy enough. What I do though is in hills and hollows, all hardwoods, and all handfelling. The timber Im in right now is taking 8 trees on average to load a truck and trailer. Any man that tell you he can cut 200 or even 100 trees like this a day is a liar.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 10, 2022)

last 3 days (besides today, was in the log truck) I was doing contract falling, averaging about 8 trees in 6 hours limbed and bucked, a good 1/3 of these are well over 40" on the butt, some closer to 60"

Thats 3 days of cutting, and so far 4 loads, with at least 3 more for me to haul tomorrow... so as many have stated its a matter of scale.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 10, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> last 3 days (besides today, was in the log truck) I was doing contract falling, averaging about 8 trees in 6 hours limbed and bucked, a good 1/3 of these are well over 40" on the butt, some closer to 60"
> 
> Thats 3 days of cutting, and so far 4 loads, with at least 3 more for me to haul tomorrow... so as many have stated its a matter of scale.


That's more in line with what I do.


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## SliverPicker (Feb 23, 2022)

I only have a tally for one short job In 2016. On the last day of that day the Super came out in the woods and asked me how many trees I figure I had dropped during the job. I said that I had no idea. He informed me that it was “Over 2200.” I said “You kept track?” He said ”Yep.” 

This was all standing dead battle kill. Mostly 10” to 18” DBH. On the ground. Delimbed on three “sides”.

Back of the napkin figuring:

6 weeks. 5 days per week. 8 hours per day. 30 days of cutting. Two or three short days due to wind. 9000 feet elevation.

2200 trees/ 60 days = 73.3 trees per day average.felled and 75% delimbed.

Never really thought about it before.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 23, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> last 3 days (besides today, was in the log truck) I was doing contract falling, averaging about 8 trees in 6 hours limbed and bucked, a good 1/3 of these are well over 40" on the butt, some closer to 60"
> 
> Thats 3 days of cutting, and so far 4 loads, with at least 3 more for me to haul tomorrow... so as many have stated its a matter of scale.


forgot about this...

got 8 loads total out of that job, right around 40,000bf, probably could of been closer to 10 loads, but a lot of the hardwoods are not worth hauling... (Maple has plummeted in value here, and is always tough to make a log out of that fits on our log trucks)


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## Huntaholic (Feb 23, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> forgot about this...
> 
> got 8 loads total out of that job, right around 40,000bf, probably could of been closer to 10 loads, but a lot of the hardwoods are not worth hauling... (Maple has plummeted in value here, and is always tough to make a log out of that fits on our log trucks)


Its always amazing to me how the markets are different in different parts of the country! Hard maple here is doing good, best I remember its about 1.50 for the best grade. Even soft maple is pretty good at 60 cents.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 23, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> Its always amazing to me how the markets are different in different parts of the country! Hard maple here is doing good, best I remember its about 1.50 for the best grade. Even soft maple is pretty good at 60 cents.


think we're $300 per 1k ish? what .30 per foot?
it Big Leaf Maple, so its not rock hard, but its not soft either, Gibson guitars and I think Fender will interchange it with hard maple and not tell anyone. 

Problem is our hardwood mills were pretty dependent on the China trade, Ole Donny pretty much ****ed them, as soon as the trade war started, China sent back several ships full of wood, both logs and finished boards, its permanently closed at least 2 mills, and hamstrung one of the major export yards for most of a year. China hasn't picked up much of the export market still...preffering to get their wood from... Russia... and Australia, but mostly Russia. 

So we have lots of hardwood, but only a handful of mills to send it to anymore.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 23, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> think we're $300 per 1k ish? what .30 per foot?
> it Big Leaf Maple, so its not rock hard, but its not soft either, Gibson guitars and I think Fender will interchange it with hard maple and not tell anyone.
> 
> Problem is our hardwood mills were pretty dependent on the China trade, Ole Donny pretty much ****ed them, as soon as the trade war started, China sent back several ships full of wood, both logs and finished boards, its permanently closed at least 2 mills, and hamstrung one of the major export yards for most of a year. China hasn't picked up much of the export market still...preffering to get their wood from... Russia... and Australia, but mostly Russia.
> ...


Its that way here except it just the opposite, its softwoods and pulp that have almost ZERO market value! Even my tulip poplar, (which isn't really a poplar at all, its in the magnolia family) is shipping overseas and mostly to china. The closest pulpwood mill I know of is 90 miles away, hard to make wages trucking that far.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 23, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> Its that way here except it just the opposite, its softwoods and pulp that have almost ZERO market value! Even my tulip poplar, (which isn't really a poplar at all, its in the magnolia family) is shipping overseas and mostly to china. The closest pulpwood mill I know of is 90 miles away, hard to make wages trucking that far.


Yeah, Ironically the pulp mill here is running out of wood (for "soft woods" everybodies in panic mode at the mo) if the main mills can't get saw logs, the pulp mill plays second fiddle. After the trade war thang, they had nearly half the yard locked up with cotton wood (poplar) and no market for it to go to... it started growing on its own before they managed to get rid of all of it. 
as for you'se eastern and especially south east folks, its down too some enterprising folks decided to plant millions of acres into pine because its quick growing, easy to harvest and great for making paper... then Bill Gates and Steve Jobs made home computing easy and the Email was created... so bye bye paper market. Don't feel bad they tried the same **** here with black poplar (cottonwood/cottonweeds) Now I get calls every week to come get loads of it that probably won't cover trucking 10 miles let alone 90.


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## Campbellcontractlogging (Apr 15, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> 200 is a bit of a stretch, unless you're talking mechanized.
> 
> realistically if your just dumping, no limbing or bucking, about 50 in 6 hours, maybe more if your in smaller timber.


I cut and trim 50-60 trees a day takes 6 to 9 hrs depending on how good the timber is I’ll cut and skid 30 in a 5 hr period by myself 200 just felling in extremely good timber is possible but I doubt sustainable over time.


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## Campbellcontractlogging (Apr 15, 2022)

catbuster said:


> It’s not a rare thing for fallers to be paid by the board foot here in the US and by the cubic meter in parts of the world while doing piece work. With smaller trees hourly may be a better way to go, especially on pre commercial thinning. It just depends on what you’re cutting.
> 
> The last couple of jobs I had cut where in garbage wood and I paid hourly-$50 for someone supplying their own equipment. If you’re in decent wood, it’s not rare to gross $330-350 per day paid per board foot. Helicopter outfits will do even better, but there are reasons for that, mostly the remoteness of where you’re working and the difficult terrain. I mean, let’s face it-if nobody will put a yarder on the ground, it’s probably not fun to walk around, much less work in.
> 
> ...


I get paid by the ton usually make 4000$ a week Midwest timber hard wood tie logs 3 to 5 cutter 9’4” logs


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## Kodiak Kid (May 15, 2022)

I've been cutting old growth spruce, ceder, and hemlock all over south central and south east Alaska for 30 years. I've never know any cutter in that time that has put down 200 trees in a day. Not even close. Not even in small wood on flat ground just dumping tree lengths for a prosesor with no limbing or bucking involved. Under those conditions in six hours, 160-170 is the number that comes to mind. Maybe 180 if your going balls to the walls.


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## sb47 (May 15, 2022)

Campbellcontractlogging said:


> I get paid by the ton usually make 4000$ a week Midwest timber hard wood tie logs 3 to 5 cutter 9’4” logs


In the few places I have worked where people got paid by piece work, safety was no where in site. I quickly quit and found something with a safer work environment


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## softdown (May 15, 2022)

sb47 said:


> In the few places I have worked where people got paid by piece work, safety was no where in site. I quickly quit and found something with a safer work environment


I was recently talking about this "200/day" figure. Saying there is no way the logger would ever look up if that was the goal. Ridiculously dangerous to never look up. I charge about double for widow makers.


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## Kodiak Kid (May 15, 2022)

softdown said:


> I was recently talking about this "200/day" figure. Saying there is no way the logger would ever look up if that was the goal. Ridiculously dangerous to never look up. I charge about double for widow makers.


Absolutely agreed! You must keep your head up! Especially when cutting big and tall snags! I hardy look at my kerfs when cutting snags depending on the stage of decomposition in the snag especially if there is big loose bark slabs up the trunk. Pretty much do everything be feel as far as my cuts go. Never take my eyes off the top on down to just above my head! Any cutter that's been cut'n for any amount of time will tell you they've had s**t come loose and down on top of them just from the vibration of the saw at least once or twice! A lot of neck injuries cut'n timber without a doubt! I've been so lucky over the years I lost count long ago. Stayed alive this long because I keep my f***ing head up!

Cut safe, stay sharp, and be aware!


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## softdown (May 15, 2022)

Looking at current lumber prices, someone is making tons of money. It isn't the stores though. They just mark it up a certain percentage. I'm guessing some of the big mills are making bank.

In fuel - seems the refineries are making a killing now? I heard Shell just posted a tripling of profits? They are the big refiner I think. Crazy days.


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## Kodiak Kid (May 15, 2022)

softdown said:


> Looking at current lumber prices, someone is making tons of money. It isn't the stores though. They just mark it up a certain percentage. I'm guessing some of the big mills are making bank.
> 
> In fuel - seems the refineries are making a killing now? I heard Shell just posted a tripling of profits? They are the big refiner I think. Crazy days.


Warehouser is capitalizing on lumber prices too I believe.


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## Real1shepherd (May 15, 2022)

The lumber companies are the ones with the 300-500% annual profits. Not the retailers and certainly not the fallers. 

We were paid by the load, not the tree count. But in a load, if there were more than 27 log lengths, then you weren't making good money. The US Forest Service is happy for the fallers to be glorified tree thinners. I saw the handwriting on the wall and got out in the 80's. I did get to cut a lot of OG Doug Fir though and moving to CO, cut some beautiful OG Engelmann Spruce up on the Grand Mesa. But CO logging was cowboy logging. So unlike the west coast, I couldn't even begin to tell ya all the differences. 

If you're cutting 200 'trees' a day, you're cutting sticks. It's about how the trees scale, not about the tree count. For us on the west coast, it was Decimal C Scale large bark timber. 

Kevin


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## sb47 (May 16, 2022)




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## Kodiak Kid (May 16, 2022)

sb47 said:


>



Yeah I've seen that clip before several times! Best timber drive I've ever seen! I've done some good drives my self, but definitely nothing that big! Some Bull Bucks would fire certain cutters for doing that! A big domino drive is definitely playing with fire in my opinion! Definitely not recommend!

Cut safe, stay sharp, and be aware!


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## Real1shepherd (May 16, 2022)

You'd be fired on any shows I ever worked on doing that.

Kevin


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