# Semi Chisel VS Chisel chain for milling



## logbob (Feb 19, 2012)

So, the local shop made a mistake and instead of a semi-chisel they used a full chisel to prepare the granberg type chain for my MS 660 - 36" bar.
Now they argue I didn't tell them I wanted round instead of square, and they don't know what to do with the chain, and bla bla bla.

Do I have to insist on the replacement or do I keep the chisel chain ? 
I always used semi-chisel this far for milling, as I heard full chisel result in a rougher finish (which I hate) and dull faster...
Would like to hear some opinions on the matter...


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## betterbuilt (Feb 19, 2012)

logbob said:


> So, the local shop made a mistake and instead of a semi-chisel they used a full chisel to prepare the granberg type chain for my MS 660 - 36" bar.
> Now they argue I didn't tell them I wanted round instead of square, and they don't know what to do with the chain, and bla bla bla.
> 
> Do I have to insist on the replacement or do I keep the chisel chain ?
> ...



I'd make them take it back. There's no reason they can't put it back on the roll it came off. Local shop are either great or a big pain. I'd take my business else where if they don't take it back.


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## n8ghz (Feb 19, 2012)

I'd just use it for cutting firewood, and if they made anymore for me, I'd tell them exactly what I wanted....what are we talking....under ~30 bucks? Why make an enemy?


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## betterbuilt (Feb 19, 2012)

n8ghz said:


> I'd just use it for cutting firewood, and if they made anymore for me, I'd tell them exactly what I wanted....what are we talking....under ~30 bucks? Why make an enemy?



What ever happened to customer service or The customer is alway right. Seem like the only guys that own shops are bipolar and they never write anything down. They get off by making you feel like it's your fault.


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## logbob (Feb 19, 2012)

They already cut off the scoring teeth, and sharpened to 10 degrees, reason why they can't put it back on the roll it came off, and it's not good for crosscutting either. It's like a Granberg now, but full chisel....
Anyone using a Granberg style full chisel ?
It's a little more than 30 bucks as it came of a Stihl Rapid roll and they are more expensive, so just want to know if it is usable...or just good for the thrash can....


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## Timberframed (Feb 19, 2012)

I had one shop take them to 30 degrees (without calling me) and I tried it with negative results so they re-ground to 10. I lost a little of the life of the chain but they know better now. The guy said he never saw a chain like that before and had been in business for 60 years. You have to make sure they understand it's ripping chain even if you insult thier intelligence which is what I did.


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## betterbuilt (Feb 19, 2012)

Well if they custom ground it, I'd say you own it. It'll cut fine.


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## BobL (Feb 19, 2012)

If you didn't tell them then I can't see what there is to complain about>



betterbuilt said:


> Well if they custom ground it, I'd say you own it. It'll cut fine.



I agree, it's not like you'll be cutting anything hard.


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## dustytools (Feb 19, 2012)

Use it, you can resharpen it with a round file and eventually have a round profile.


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## mtngun (Feb 19, 2012)

logbob said:


> So, the local shop made a mistake and instead of a semi-chisel they used a full chisel to prepare the granberg type chain for my MS 660 - 36" bar.
> 
> I always used semi-chisel this far for milling, as I heard full chisel result in a rougher finish (which I hate) and dull faster...


Will Malloff made his milling chains out of full chisel, not semi-chisel.

For future reference, there is little advantage to the Granberg style chain, other than gaining 500 or so rpm in the cut, similar to skip chain. 

I recommend the Malloff grind instead, though it can be a bit rough.


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## hamish (Feb 19, 2012)

logbob said:


> They already cut off the scoring teeth, and sharpened to 10 degrees, reason why they can't put it back on the roll it came off, and it's not good for crosscutting either. It's like a Granberg now, but full chisel....
> Anyone using a Granberg style full chisel ?
> It's a little more than 30 bucks as it came of a Stihl Rapid roll and they are more expensive, so just want to know if it is usable...or just good for the thrash can....



If you got a loop in Europe that has had its scoring teeth cut off and re-sharpened to 10 degrees for a lil more then $30 you should buy more from that dealer and re-sell it!
MMaking a loop of chain is nothing, but cutting down scoring teeth and resharpeninf to 10 degrees is labour intensive for a shop to do. To converta full chisel chain to a granberg style chain would take more then an hour.


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## logbob (Feb 20, 2012)

BobL said:


> If you didn't tell them then I can't see what there is to complain about



Of course I told them...

It seems to me like the Granberg style is easier on the saw and the finish is smoother. Possibly a little slower, but the smoother finish allows for faster planing.
Amish, 35 or so was the chain off the roll, and the grinding job was about 10, which is not much given the time it takes to custom grind it to Granberg style.
I'll give it a try and see how it works...


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## hamish (Feb 20, 2012)

Granberg style chain wil hold a little bot more rom in the cut, the quality of the cut is questionable as to if its better or not.

Sharpen your own granberg-style chain and you will never use another one again.


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## BlueRider (Feb 21, 2012)

hamish said:


> ....Sharpen your own granberg-style chain and you will never use another one again.



+1


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## mtngun (Feb 21, 2012)

hamish said:


> Sharpen your own granberg-style chain and you will never use another one again.


The man who invented Granberg chain switched to the Malloff grind.


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## hamish (Feb 21, 2012)

mtngun said:


> The man who invented Granberg chain switched to the Malloff grind.



Oh Dan we know it was you that invented it!

ole sly Dan Granberg!

have to ask......who did invent it, i know it wasn't a granberg........might he been a Malloff..........

Been four years now and still can't get a copy of his book.


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## mtngun (Feb 22, 2012)

hamish said:


> have to ask......who did invent it, i know it wasn't a granberg........might he been a Malloff..........


Yep, Malloff invented Granberg chain.


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## logbob (Feb 22, 2012)

To be honest I never tried a maloff, all I tried is the granberg and the oregon ripping, which is a normal chain sharpened to 10°
The oregon was faster but it bogged the saw and the finish did not compare to Granberg. I grind my Granberg to 6° and 20° on the scoring teeth.
Both were tried on the 2071 though.
Possibly the 660 has enough power to pull either the oregon or the maloff without bogging...so I think I will give it a try.

I read somewhere here some thread about the maloff and the grinding specs, but I can't seem to find it now....


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2012)

logbob said:


> To be honest I never tried a maloff, all I tried is the granberg and the oregon ripping, which is a normal chain sharpened to 10°
> The oregon was faster but it bogged the saw and the finish did not compare to Granberg. . . .



The top plate filing angle (TPFA) has very little to do with a saw bogging down. If anything a smaller TPFA should reduce the chances of a saw bogging down.

The two angles on cutters that can bog a saw are the top plate cutting angle and the raker-cutter-wood angle with the latter being the most significant

Barring something like a bent cutter I'm increasingly coming around to thinking the quality of the finish is largely dependent on the saw/mill moving smoothly down the log. 
This means the operator or gravity or a winch being able to; 
- the operator or gravity or a winch applying a steady forward pressure on mill - this is why gravity is potentially better force applicator than an operator or using a winch since the downward force of gravity in one place is constant.
- keeping the saw at constant RPM - not repeatedly pushing so as to repeatedly bog the saw
- not seesawing the mill down the log. 
- using log rails for every cut, any roughness in finish produced from one cut can become magnified in a subsequent cut if the mill rails have to pass over that roughness.

I can get the same very good finish on 35º TPFA as with 10º TPFA but I have to be much more careful about how I move the mill down the log with the 35º TPFA chain. Seesawing with 35º TPA can really mess up a finish. 

The other time one can run into problems with finish is when the width of the cut somehow synchronizes with the speed of the cut.

This photo show cuts made by the same mill, same chain (but with 2 stroke file touchup), same wood - but log in picture on right is about 30% wider. 





The finish on the right is my standard finish 10º TPA full comp chain.


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## mtngun (Feb 22, 2012)

I find that the Malloff grind will usually washboard on the first pass and maybe the 2nd pass. As the chain dulls, it takes smaller bites and the washboarding goes away.

A more aggressive raker angle contributes to washboarding, too.

I've observed this on 3 different powerheads, so it I don't think it is a frequency issue. I think it is a matter of a sharp cutter and aggressive angles taking bigger bites. Bigger bites cut faster, but will leave a rougher finish.


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## mtngun (Feb 22, 2012)

logbob said:


> The oregon was faster but it bogged the saw and the finish did not compare to Granberg.


Granberg functions similar to a skip chain, with only half as many teeth cutting, so it lets the saw rev a little higher.


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## BobL (Feb 23, 2012)

mtngun said:


> I find that the Malloff grind will usually washboard on the first pass and maybe the 2nd pass. As the chain dulls, it takes smaller bites and the washboarding goes away.
> 
> A more aggressive raker angle contributes to washboarding, too.
> 
> I've observed this on 3 different powerheads, so it I don't think it is a frequency issue. I think it is a matter of a sharp cutter and aggressive angles taking bigger bites. Bigger bites cut faster, but will leave a rougher finish.



I can't see how it is just a sharpness matter, look at those cuts above, identical raker angles and if anything the washboard cut was the one with the blunter chain. To generate washboard there has to be a sync between cutting speed and cutting width. A blunt chain will cut slower so it changes the cutting speed so the two parameters will get out of synch on the same width cut. I also only ever see it on narrow (<20") cuts so the cutting speed it pretty near max chain speed for the saws involved.


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## logbob (Feb 23, 2012)

James8686 said:


> I'd just use it for cutting firewood



Cutting firewood with a skip tooth chain on a 36" bar and a 660 doesn't seem a very good idea to me 

BobL and mtngun, thanks for the interesting posts about the finish. 
Depending on intended use of the boards/cants the finish is very important. If boards are to be planed one should take into account both the time it takes to plane the boards smooth and the amount of wood that gets wasted in planing...
And if they are not to be planed the finish is possibly even more important...
So your opinion is that the square tooth is not necessarily rougher that the round tooth ?


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## BobL (Feb 23, 2012)

logbob said:


> Cutting firewood with a skip tooth chain on a 36" bar and a 660 doesn't seem a very good idea to me


In Australia skip is often standard for blocking up big hardwood trees for firewood.



> BobL and mtngun, thanks for the interesting posts about the finish.
> Depending on intended use of the boards/cants the finish is very important. If boards are to be planed one should take into account both the time it takes to plane the boards smooth and the amount of wood that gets wasted in planing...


My experience is that; unless the mill is loose and sloppy so the bar moves around a lot and digs the chain unevenly into the cut surface, for most of the wood I cut the cutting finish is less of an issue to plane out than the defects produced by the twisting/bending and uneveness of the surface produced during drying. 



> So your opinion is that the square tooth is not necessarily rougher that the round tooth ?


Correct - if an operator is careless they can butcher the finish with semichisel while a careful operator can produce a fair surface with chisel.
But on balance a careful operator can produce a better finish with semichisel.
Here's a picture of what a magnified cutting cross section looks like for the two types of cutter.





Which one would you rather have to deal with?


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## betterbuilt (Feb 23, 2012)

Seem kinda silly to worry about the finish of the cut. Except for the guy's building with rough cut. The Guys working with the slabs ends up planning,routering or belt sanding the slab flat again anyway's. We all know they dry perfectly flat and never cup or twist or bow. I'm in the just make slabs and deal with it later category. As long long as I'm milling the finish doesn't really matter. 

I'm actually gonna try full chisel tomorrow and see what the fuss is all about.


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## logbob (Feb 23, 2012)

BobL said:


> Which one would you rather have to deal with?



Semichisel slow !

Betterbuilt I guess it depends on the intended use of what you're milling. Since at this stage I am milling boards for siding and for my cabin's deck finish does matter because two passes on the thicknesser and I'm done. And same goes for dimensional lumber to be used for carpentry as it is planed with portable planers so a little bow or twist is generally not a problem.
But if I was to cut slabs for resale or to be stored for future projects then I agree finish wouldn't matter....
Looking forward to the results of your test with full chisel. I'm stuck with 3ft of snow in my yard and in the woods...


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## betterbuilt (Feb 23, 2012)

logbob said:


> Semichisel slow !
> 
> Betterbuilt I guess it depends on the intended use of what you're milling. Since at this stage I am milling boards for siding and for my cabin's deck finish does matter because two passes on the thicknesser and I'm done. And same goes for dimensional lumber to be used for carpentry as it is planed with portable planers so a little bow or twist is generally not a problem.
> But if I was to cut slabs for resale or to be stored for future projects then I agree finish wouldn't matter....
> Looking forward to the results of your test with full chisel. I'm stuck with 3ft of snow in my yard and in the woods...



If I was cutting siding I'd care also.


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