# Tree cutting help



## 777ER (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi, I'm new to the forums...

let me introduce my experience with chainsaws....

I had a red homelite chainsaw (can't remember which model it was) and it was good for about 4-5 years until I blew the engine cutting the bottom of a fence post.

Then I had a rental STIHL chainsaw from the local tool rental place and that worked well, did need to adjust the chain twice.

Then I had a craftsman 16" which I borrowed from my uncle....worst chainsaw ever!!! I put a new chain on it and cut a hedge down...the chain went dull in 3 mins and started smoking (yes there was chain oil in the tank).

Right after I finally got the hedge cut down from the front lawn, I was so pissed off that I went to the local STIHL dealer about 10 mins away to start researching on the chainsaws.

I really want a reliable and good quailty chainsaw that can be used whenever I want...
Point in case, everytime there's a storm or heavy rain...the local tool rentals are out of stock on chainsaws!

I have settled down on the MS 361 with the optional longer bar which is what I want.

However I have a few questions;

I want a backup chain to use, in the STIHL catalog; there are so many chains type that I can't even decide which one to pick....

I cut alot of wet trees, some dry wood, firewood types...
Right now I'm looking at the carbide tipped chain.


The other thing is...I have a tall tree which is really a weed type (no not the drug, you know weeds that grows around the lawn) and it's getting big and already dropping seeds in my backyard that if you don't mow more than 2 weeks, they start to grow.
I'm concerned that if I try to cut it down, I won't know how far to cut and to stop because I don't want the chainsaw bar to get pinched and stuck in there. 
Is there a guideline or limit on how deep to cut to before backing out and make the other cut (wedge cut)?

Thanks in advance...


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## treemandan (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi, thanks for calling, my name is Dan.


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## ddhlakebound (Jul 29, 2008)

Even though I like the orange saws better, you've made a great choice with the 361, it has a great reputation. 

When you start using it you'll realize that it's way more saw than you've ever used before. Get yourself set up with saftey gear when you buy it. Chaps, hardhat, saftey glasses and/or face shield, and muffs or plugs. 

As far as chains, the carbide costs more, and will stay sharper longer, but are much harder to sharpen yourself. For general use just ask your dealer for some good chain that isn't saftey chain, and get some files and a jig to sharpen as you need. Or the chain guru's here will guide you further. Keep your bar in clean wood and out of the dirt and rocks, and you'll be surprised how long it will keep a good edge. One pass through the dirt tho, and it's uselessly dull. 

Your owners manual will give general felling directions, but each tree and situation is different, and sometimes require different techniques and cuts. A general rule for mostly straight, mostly balanced trees is a face cut 1/3 the diameter of the tree. How wide or narrow you make your notch will determine how long the hinge guides the tree to the gound before breaking. Narrow notch = early hinge breakage, wide notch = longer range of hinge control. 

Experience will help you judge when you're about to get your bar pinched, as you're gaining it, cut slowly, watch carefully, and keep your chain moving and ready to pull out when you see the tree begin to move or shift. 

Hope that helps.


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## engha_neer (Jul 30, 2008)

Eeek. Did someone mention Darwin?


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 30, 2008)

time to call some helptom trees:help:


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## ddhlakebound (Jul 30, 2008)

engha_neer said:


> Eeek. Did someone mention Darwin?



Geez guys.....I didn't really tell him anything that isn't in the owners manual of the saw he's buying......

You guys do know that regular people use chainsaws too, right? They aren't reserved for loggers and arborists. Also, the OP doesn't seem to be a gung ho teenager who thinks he's only a saddle and a saw away from his first million....

777er, people get themselves into trouble with trees and chainsaws by not knowing their limitations. Do you know yours? 'Cause a man's got to know his limitations......

If you're beyond yours, call in a pro.


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## computeruser (Jul 30, 2008)

tomtrees58 said:


> time to call some helptom trees:help:



Perhaps, but more likely it's time for you to try posting something useful for a change, tom trees. Cutting trees doesn't require a great deal of intelligence, or even a tremendous amount of skill. Some practice, some common sense, and a bit of physics knowledge (learned and/or seat-of-the-pants) can conspire to make someone perfectly capable of safely and competently felling trees.





777ER said:


> I'm concerned that if I try to cut it down, I won't know how far to cut and to stop because I don't want the chainsaw bar to get pinched and stuck in there.
> Is there a guideline or limit on how deep to cut to before backing out and make the other cut (wedge cut)?
> 
> Thanks in advance...



OK, step one: READ. There is a tremendous amount of information on this site that should leave you feeling much better prepared for what you're trying to do. Look at Ekka's videos, read a bunch of older posts, and check out worthwhile articles and videos linked from this site.

If you have some extra time and ambition, there are two books that would be worth buying. Fundamentals of General Tree Work (Beranek) and Professional Timber Falling (Dent) are two popular and informative texts. You will be a MUCH wiser saw operator for having read these books.

There isn't anything terribly complex about cutting trees. It requires practice, adequate maturity to know what you can and cannot safely do yourself, and the right equipment. You're already part of the way there with a good saw. Now couple that with the proper protective gear, some felling wedges, and a cautious, informed approach to the work you're setting out to do, and you should do fine.

And skip the carbide chain unless you're a fireman cutting your way into burning buildings.


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## ddhlakebound (Jul 30, 2008)

computeruser said:


> Cutting trees doesn't require a great deal of intelligence, or even a tremendous amount of skill. Some practice, some common sense, and a bit of physics knowledge (learned and/or seat-of-the-pants) can conspire to make someone perfectly capable of safely and competently felling trees.



That statement may be generally true. However cutting trees PROPERLY does require a healthy amount of intelligence and skill. There is a big difference between getting it down, and getting it down correctly and safely.

Any idiot can put saw to tree and fall it on the house. The tree is cut right? Don't downplay the knowledge and skill necessary to do a dangerous job correctly.


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## Ghillie (Jul 30, 2008)

computeruser said:


> OK, step one: READ. There is a tremendous amount of information on this site that should leave you feeling much better prepared for what you're trying to do. Look at Ekka's videos, read a bunch of older posts, and check out worthwhile articles and videos linked from this site.
> 
> If you have some extra time and ambition, there are two books that would be worth buying. Fundamentals of General Tree Work (Beranek) and Professional Timber Falling (Dent) are two popular and informative texts. You will be a MUCH wiser saw operator for having read these books.
> 
> ...



:agree2: but I prefer the term firefighter... firemen shovel coal on a train! 


777er, here is a link to the manual for the 361 if you don't have it already. Read it and see if you have any more questions.

http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/MS34136_Manual.pdf

Good luck and be safe!

Fred


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## Ghillie (Jul 30, 2008)

Almost forgot, 777er, Welcome to the site!


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## 777ER (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice...I wanted to ask questions even tho I have some experience with chainsaws, but not much in cutting trees down. 
I have taken down a few 30 foot trees a few years ago and that's about it...no biggie.

When my boss saw the STIHL brochure on my desk, he told me a few tips on handling a bigger chainsaw and tells me I should get training for it...I told him the only training avail I see is the DVD video from stihl...

Would you rather have me take a new saw and cut a tree down only to have it go down the wrong way and ask questions later after the fact it happened? I think not 

BTW on the carbine tipped chain, I was talking about the one right above the fire and rescue chain. 
It's carbine tipped, not a full carbine like the fire and rescue one.
If you need a part # to see what I'm talking about...it's 3943






About the bar oil, is the STIHL stuff good or overpriced?


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## 2FatGuys (Jul 31, 2008)

Carbide chain is not cost effective for tree work. While it may hold an edge longer, the edge isn't as sharp and doesn't cut as quick. The MUCH higher cost of the carbide throws the cost efficiency upside down. I've cut for 30+ years and only once used a carbide chain. Use a good full-chisel chain.

The Stihl bar oil is good stuff... but it (like all others right now) is overpriced! Regardless, use a good quality bar oil to prolong bar and chain life.


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## Ghillie (Jul 31, 2008)

777ER said:


> Thanks for all the advice...I wanted to ask questions even tho I have some experience with chainsaws, but not much in cutting trees down.
> I have taken down a few 30 foot trees a few years ago and that's about it...no biggie.
> 
> When my boss saw the STIHL brochure on my desk, he told me a few tips on handling a bigger chainsaw and tells me I should get training for it...I told him the only training avail I see is the DVD video from stihl...
> ...



The fundamental's book that computeruser cited has ten chapters just on felling trees...

Chances are, any reference material you are looking at, someone on AS has seen it or read it and has an opinion.

Like I said before, you started out right by asking questions, any criticism you get is constructive (some people come across a little harsher than others, but mostly constructive anyway.)

Good luck and be safe... 

Fred


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## 777ER (Aug 21, 2008)

Got back from a 2 weeks business trip and finally have the time to settle down and take care of things around the house.

Picked up a MS 361 with the 25" bar, the dealer I brought it from replaced the chain on all of the professional series STIHL chainsaws they carry with non-safety chain.

This is the cutting chain they issued to it:





I brought another one as a spare so when the need to swap it out, I won't have downtime while the other chain is getting sharpened.

a gallon of STIHL bar chain oil costs $11 here.


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## newb (Aug 21, 2008)

A 25" bar on a 361? That is way to much chain for that saw in my opinion. I run a 18" on mine, ill run the 25" for one or two cuts but that would be it. One problem I have with some dealers is they sell the bar and not the saw. As in I have this saw here that's a 25". If you want maximum performance tell the dealer you want an 18" bar. Pete


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 21, 2008)

Keep the 25" and have the dealer switch your chain to skip tooth, then buy a 18" bar and full chisel chain, then you're ready to make hay.


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## Climbing Fool (Aug 30, 2008)

"There isn't anything terribly complex about cutting trees."

Shhh my customers may hear this!!!!!

As for tree felling in general. Take a practical course in chainsaw safety and handling where felling of living trees is part of the curriculum. You are far better getting hands on training from someone skilled with saws THEN reading a book on how to apply that basic knowledge. 

Just in case this sounds like too much hard work, spend a few minutes researching injuries and deaths in this forum alone and decide how much you are worth alive and whole......

Smile!


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## dancan (Sep 1, 2008)

25" that's a whole lot of bar on a 361 , I'm happy with 16" .


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## Rickytree (Sep 1, 2008)

The biggest thing that will dull your blade is anything other than wood. Be sure you never put it into dirt or even in a tree with included bark with rotten leaves or debris. This will keep your chain sharp as long as possible. Cutting down hedges could dull the chain by hitting steel, rocks, or even roofing shingles dropped in their by a roofer. Before cutting take a look. Cheers!


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## Stihl Alive (Sep 2, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> Geez guys.....I didn't really tell him anything that isn't in the owners manual of the saw he's buying......
> 
> You guys do know that regular people use chainsaws too, right? They aren't reserved for loggers and arborists. Also, the OP doesn't seem to be a gung ho teenager who thinks he's only a saddle and a saw away from his first million....
> 
> ...




I couldn't agree more (new here too). I have a lawn care/landscaping business on the side and have just recently added Tree Service to the title. I'm using a Stihl 441 25" on the ground, a farm boss 290 16" for limbing and some bucking, and an MS200 T when I'm monkeying up the tree. But back to the point, when I see something that makes me even a little skiddish, I have a pack of business cards in my truck to refer the customer to someone with more experience. It protects their property and my life.


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## cmetalbend (Sep 3, 2008)

Stihl Alive- welcome to the party. 777er, I think. For sure try a skip tooth on the 25 inch bar. I used to(before I had an arsenal of stihl's) keep two bars and chains of varous sizes. Not only know your limits, know your prey. Treat an Ash tree like an Oak, and your a dead man.


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## SawTroll (Sep 4, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Keep the 25" and have the dealer switch your chain to skip tooth, then buy a 18" bar and full chisel chain, then you're ready to make hay.



:agree2: :agree2:


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## 777ER (Sep 4, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Keep the 25" and have the dealer switch your chain to skip tooth, then buy a 18" bar and full chisel chain, then you're ready to make hay.



What's wrong with the 25" bar and the non-safety chain on it now?

I am happy with the performance, it didn't bog down or give me any problems.






:greenchainsaw: 


BTW, a skip tooth chain is to increase the cutting speed by lighting the load on the powerhead but rougher cut?


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## 777ER (Sep 4, 2008)

cmetalbend said:


> Not only know your limits, know your prey. Treat an Ash tree like an Oak, and your a dead man.



What happens when I cut a Ash tree like a Oak tree?


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 4, 2008)

If you are happy that is all that matters. There is a point in bar length and saw HP that you should switch to skip tooth so the saw will run at the right RPM's and not want to bog and wear on your clutch. If you don't feel you need it than that is fine.

Skip tooth rides a little rougher, but most would never notice.


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## 777ER (Sep 4, 2008)

:greenchainsaw:


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## Marc (Sep 23, 2008)

I see one element of safe sawing missed in this thread so far and that is PPE. True the OP didn't ask about it specifically, but should go along with advice to anyone new to using a powersaw.

Edit: ddhlakebound beat me to it in post #3. Now's a good time to stress it, anyway, since I didn't see any in the above photos...

I'd recommend I high quality pair of wrap chaps and a helmet system (face shield, ear muffs, helmet all integrated).

Can get the both of them for under $100.


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## MuniciPAL (Sep 23, 2008)

777ER i love your new saw. i thought stihl stopped making 361s cause its basically a lifetime saw. congrats on your purchase hope you keep your stihl hat longer than me. i lost mine fast  :greenchainsaw:


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## appalachianarbo (Sep 23, 2008)

> Perhaps, but more likely it's time for you to try posting something useful for a change, tom trees.


 

25" seems a bit long for a homeowner. It's going to be a pain to sharpen. I just upgraded my 044 to a 25", and I only bring it out on the larger trees. A 361 with an 18" bar sounds perfect.

Don't bother with carbide. The only time I use them is cutting ventilation holes at fires (I actually used one yesterday).


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## 777ER (Sep 23, 2008)

Marc said:


> I see one element of safe sawing missed in this thread so far and that is PPE. True the OP didn't ask about it specifically, but should go along with advice to anyone new to using a powersaw.
> 
> Edit: ddhlakebound beat me to it in post #3. Now's a good time to stress it, anyway, since I didn't see any in the above photos...
> 
> ...



All I have used latey while using it is the full safety glass which I use from using the weed wacker or circular saws.

I plan on getting the full face shield with a hard hat...no need for ear muffs since I was born deaf 

I have cochlear implants and whenever a loud noise is subjected, the mapping see it's hitting the limit, it automatically limits the loudness until it's no longer present at that level....that is unless I switch to a different program setting which has no loudness limit.

The good part? whenever the boss starts yelling, I just take them off and enjoy quietness while he's fuming over the delays


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## 777ER (Sep 23, 2008)

MuniciPAL said:


> 777ER i love your new saw. i thought stihl stopped making 361s cause its basically a lifetime saw. congrats on your purchase hope you keep your stihl hat longer than me. i lost mine fast  :greenchainsaw:



Thanks!

I didn't get a free STIHL hat, all I got was a free carrying case.


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## 777ER (Sep 23, 2008)

appalachianarbo said:


> 25" seems a bit long for a homeowner. It's going to be a pain to sharpen. I just upgraded my 044 to a 25", and I only bring it out on the larger trees. A 361 with an 18" bar sounds perfect.
> 
> Don't bother with carbide. The only time I use them is cutting ventilation holes at fires (I actually used one yesterday).



I have the time at work to sharpen the chains when they loose their edge...that is during downtime...all jets in the air and everything is running smoothy 

I already scrapped the carbide idea since I don't see the need for it when the chain I'm currently using works well.


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## roc65 (Sep 24, 2008)

I run my 361's with 25'' bar
460 with a 28''
660 with a 36''
These saws are never starved for power but I keep them hillbilly sharp.
Put about 3 hand sharpening to one machine sharpening, depending on if something was hit.

my smaller saws 310, 260, 270 sport 18and 20'' bars


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## Ivan H. (Oct 5, 2008)

great advice, Computer user.Know your limits if you don't feel safe your proably not.In cases were your not sure.Find someone with exprience to help you.The only limits to a saw is it's user


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## GLOBOTREE (Oct 16, 2008)

*Use a handsaw*



777ER said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forums...
> 
> let me introduce my experience with chainsaws....
> 
> ...


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## 777ER (Oct 16, 2008)

GLOBOTREE said:


> Chris, try cutting with a    handsaw first until you are comfortableQUOTE]



Huh? Been there and done that with Christmas trees and camping...


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