# Forest Service chainsaw certification



## Nuzzy (Jan 15, 2014)

I'd like to be schooled on this if anyone has any info....

Backstory:
I live in WA, am an avid mountain biker, and frequently volunteer with various organizations in building and maintaining biking and hiking trails. Last year, the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance orchestrated a chainsaw safety and bucking class/field test through the Forest Service, given to a group of individuals to receive their Class B bucking certifications as volunteers. I got involved with that group of sawyers last summer, and will be taking the certification when the EMBA does it again this spring.

I've spent a good bit of time searching through various USFS sites today trying to gather info. I think I understand that I will need to have a valid first aid card. Do I also need a CPR cert? Or is that the same thing?

Also, I think I understand Class A relates mostly to brushing, whereas class B is good up to 24" and class C is over 24"... Sound right? Is there a difference between bucking and felling certifications? The guys that did this last year got Class B bucking cards when they were done, but what more would it take to go Class C? And Felling if different?


Anyone have any insights? opcorn:


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## Cfaller (Jan 15, 2014)

First aid and CPR typically go together. I believe you are correct on the size of timber you can cut with the A, B and C sawyer certs. In the wildland world, a B faller would be able to fell and buck up to 24". When doing outside groups you can restrict the individual to liming and bucking only. Typically once you get your B card and gain more experience then you can go for a C card. Some folks can get a C card right a way but they typically do felling for a living. Safety and the procedure are what most certifier's will be watching for. Try and get the certification test before hand so you know exactly what you will be evaluated on. Slowp should be able to help with this some also. Good luck.


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## slowp (Jan 15, 2014)

Oh dear. Yes, you will need CPR which usually goes with the First Aid class. An A bucker is basically a trainee. I may be wrong but the limit is around 9 inches. Class B is up to 24". Forget about C, unless your FS is easier to work with than ours. Our folks told a very good production faller that he'd have to go through certification and could only be a B faller and they weren't going to do another session for a year. They lost one heck of a good faller who was going to do work as a volunteer. I had to hear about it frequently when out on timber sales from him. There are fewer certifiers for C than with the smaller sizes. You will need to go through certification every year.

Falling is the same way.

You may be watching a few movies as part of the training.
I got my first few years certification whilst an employee of the FS. The last was after retiring and through the Pacific Crest Trail Association. They are a little different, but are still FS approved. They only do bucking certs and only have an A and B classification. Their B rating means no diameter limit. That's what I am. They have you buck some trees up, use wedges, and the hardest part for me, and I got dinged on it, was explaining what I was doing. Confused?

You might look into that as an alternative. They have Trail Skills College and also put on first aid and saw training at our White Pass ski area. I hope they repeat it this year.

With the FS, I just cut what I was told to cut and got some pointers. But that was our guy. You could have a different type.
They are mainly looking to see that you are safe and comfortable running a saw.

Here is a link to The Manual. The Forest Service is big on manuals and they will use this for training. There may also be some videos on You Tube. There are for cross cut training.

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf06672805/pdf06672805dpi300.pdf


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## Philbert (Jan 15, 2014)

I have taken a similar class for trail volunteers here a few times (Minnesota). The card they give us is 'Class B - bucking and limbing only'. Nothing about size of wood. 

First aid was not part of that class, but we had separate sessions for chainsaws and crosscut saws.

So there may be variations depending on where you live/work/volunteer.

Philbert


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## slowp (Jan 15, 2014)

Link for the PCTA.

http://www.pcta.org/volunteer/trail-skills-college/saw-training/


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## Nuzzy (Jan 16, 2014)

slowp said:


> Oh dear. Yes, you will need CPR which usually goes with the First Aid class. An A bucker is basically a trainee. I may be wrong but the limit is around 9 inches. Class B is up to 24". Forget about C, unless your FS is easier to work with than ours. Our folks told a very good production faller that he'd have to go through certification and could only be a B faller and they weren't going to do another session for a year. They lost one heck of a good faller who was going to do work as a volunteer. I had to hear about it frequently when out on timber sales from him. There are fewer certifiers for C than with the smaller sizes. You will need to go through certification every year.
> 
> Falling is the same way.
> 
> ...





Thank you! Interesting about Class C being a pain... I'm really not THAT worried about needing it; I will take whatever they want to give me. Just figured if it wasn't too much extra work, I'd do it. Usually it's a non issue, but occasionally a bigger one pops up. I have no hesitation with taking down and bucking 4 and 5 foot trees, and would gladly do so in front of a certifier. But I certainly don't have 20 years resume in the woods if that's what they're after. 

I bookmarked all that you posted and will read through it more thoroughly. Certainly interesting with the possible PCTA angle.

Do you know, with the cert process, are they wanting a specific style and only that style? Or are they more interested in seeing that you can safely get through the task at hand using any number of valid techniques...?


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## 2dogs (Jan 16, 2014)

I took the NWCG version of S-212, Wildland Power Saws. I came away with an A faller certificate. As far as I know B and C faller certs still require a ticket book to be filled out. You can not just take a class and walk out with a cert.


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## Nuzzy (Jan 16, 2014)

2dogs said:


> I took the NWCG version of S-212, Wildland Power Saws. I came away with an A faller certificate. As far as I know B and C faller certs still require a ticket book to be filled out. You can not just take a class and walk out with a cert.




Out of pertinent curiosity, can anyone get involved with NWCG?


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## slowp (Jan 16, 2014)

What does NWCG mean.

As far as style? Start your saw with chainbrake on, foot in handle, on the ground. Put the chain brake on whenever you are walking more than a couple of steps. Safety is the main thing so don't try to be fast, try to cut smoothly and safely. Be sure of your footing. And wear a proper hard hat. A bike helmet would not be that. Chaps have to be the kind the FS wants them to be and cover the tippy top of your leather boot. 

Springpoles are done with a chainsaw just like in the springpole thread. In other words, show them you know a few basic tricks.
Read up on the compound mitre or is it miter? cut. That's a good trail cut to know. There's also the offset cut, which is used to slow the fall of the chunk. Lots of neat stuff to learn. If your cert day is like here, they will give you nice pointers. 

Our FS certifier would hit us with harder to do stuff every time. Even though it says not to cut above your shoulders, he had both of us women limbing a tree that we had to do that with. It was.....a......hardwood!! That was my last FS cert.


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## slowp (Jan 16, 2014)

The whole certification process is to prevent accidents. It got its start during fires when falling bosses were coming back in with their "fallers" and sending the "fallers" home. Too many guys were showing up as fallers who had no business doing so. There were a few bad accidents too. 

To me, the certification only means you are basically safe. It does not mean you are an "expert" and it does not mean you HAVE to buck everything up. In fact, the classroom session will go over secenarios when you should flag something and walk away.
I refused to buck up a tree at my first cert. I told the guy I was not one with the saw enough to stand on another tree to buck it up. I got certified at the B level.


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## Nuzzy (Jan 16, 2014)

slowp said:


> What does NWCG mean.
> 
> As far as style? Start your saw with chainbrake on, foot in handle, on the ground. Put the chain brake on whenever you are walking more than a couple of steps. Safety is the main thing so don't try to be fast, try to cut smoothly and safely. Be sure of your footing. And wear a proper hard hat. A bike helmet would not be that. Chaps have to be the kind the FS wants them to be and cover the tippy top of your leather boot.
> 
> ...





Excellent, thanks! Hyper-attentiveness to safety procedures #1, check. 

Compound mitre is cutting a log like this \ / as seen from top, isn't it? So that the chunk rolls out and away, more easily releasing. Offset has the top down cut offset from the bottom up cut by an inch or so...?


NWCG - National Wildfire Coordinating Group. It popped up multiple times yesterday while researching.


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## Nuzzy (Jan 16, 2014)

slowp said:


> To me, the certification only means you are basically safe. It does not mean you are an "expert" and it does not mean you HAVE to buck everything up. In fact, the classroom session will go over secenarios when you should flag something and walk away.
> I refused to buck up a tree at my first cert. I told the guy I was not one with the saw enough to stand on another tree to buck it up. I got certified at the B level.





Makes sense. I think the biggest reason for the push to have a group of certified buckers within the mountain bike org is ass coverage. In other words, the Forest Service likes having us be able to clear trail; we can go a helluva lot farther on bikes in a day than they can hiking, and help never hurts when the agency is spread so thin. However, they need to be able to cover their asses; if they know we're out there cutting on their land, they can at least know we're trained in safety and basic skills, and are following their rules. If we were completely rogue, they would need to step in just on principle, even if we were helping.


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## Philbert (Jan 16, 2014)

Thank you guys, by the way, for your help in keeping the trails open for all!

Philbert


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## SliverPicker (Jan 16, 2014)

It a little different around here. With our beetle epidemic our trails are an absolute deadfall disaster come spring time. All the downed trees just mysteriously clear themselves from the trails after the snow is gone. Weird......


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## 2dogs (Jan 16, 2014)

slowp said:


> What does NWCG mean.
> 
> As far as style? Start your saw with chainbrake on, foot in handle, on the ground. Put the chain brake on whenever you are walking more than a couple of steps. Safety is the main thing so don't try to be fast, try to cut smoothly and safely. Be sure of your footing. And wear a proper hard hat. A bike helmet would not be that. Chaps have to be the kind the FS wants them to be and cover the tippy top of your leather boot.
> 
> ...



Patty is right on the money here. In fact she should become a certifier!


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## Philbert (Jan 16, 2014)

2dogs said:


> Patty is right on the money here. In fact she should become a certifier!


(Although, she did say '_hard hat_' instead of '_helmet_', which she has called me out on. Must be mellowing in her retirement?)

Philbert


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## Jabuol (Jan 16, 2014)

2dogs said:


> Patty is right on the money here. In fact she should become a certifier!




I've never met her, but my uncle has. He says she's pretty good with a saw. He doesn't pass out many compliments.


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## slowp (Jan 16, 2014)

2dogs said:


> Patty is right on the money here. In fact she should become a certifier!


 
Golly gee garsh, I couldn't. I get dinged on my poor explanations. I think it is from being around guys like my neighbor down the road. He sometimes gets hired to fall the scary big hazard trees in campgrounds. He's known as being a "hell of a good faller" and is semi-retired. The rec. folks videoed him falling a tree. The camera operator asked how he planned to fall it, expecting a detailed answer. My neighbor said, and he has the old time local, before TV, accent, "I'm gonna cut 'er down and if it breaks off early, run like hell." 

I like that.


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## HuskStihl (Jan 17, 2014)

man you guys must be awesome! I took those courses three times and have only made it to anvil pruners. I'm going to practice all winter and try to move up to the bypass pruner certification


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## Nuzzy (Jan 17, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> man you guys must be awesome! I took those courses three times and have only made it to anvil pruners. I'm going to practice all winter and try to move up to the bypass pruner certification




Hey, pruning is serious business!! You know how many deaths are attributed to pokey staubs every year...? More than auto accidents and jealous ex lovers combined!


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## AT sawyer (Jan 19, 2014)

I just got my Chainsaw C card, but it's good for three years. Is the one year recert requirement for C-Certifiers?


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## slowp (Jan 19, 2014)

AT sawyer said:


> I just got my Chainsaw C card, but it's good for three years. Is the one year recert requirement for C-Certifiers?


 
I do not know. I do know that the FS runs the As and Bs thru recert every year. The PCTA recerts every other year.


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## Cfaller (Jan 20, 2014)

AT sawyer said:


> I just got my Chainsaw C card, but it's good for three years. Is the one year recert requirement for C-Certifiers?


I believe the certifiers are every three years too.


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