# Insurance for a sole-proprietor?



## gwiley (Mar 11, 2010)

I find myself felling trees for a lot of folks that I know as favors or with the agreement that I can keep the wood for milling/firewood. I have dropped some that were within reach of a structure and it occurs to me that if I crush a house things might be a little iffy with their HO insurance.

Who do you guys recommend I talk to about getting insurance to cover just me and my felling activities? Is there something that can be used to cover me and an occasional helper?


----------



## tree md (Mar 11, 2010)

Mine is through UPAC. I'd shop around with some local agents and see who can hook you up.


----------



## Treecutr (Mar 11, 2010)

Mine is through local company. Not too expensive for general Liability, but to cover a helper you need workmans comp I believe, and thats expensive. I paid around $700 for a $1,000,000 per incident, $2,000,000 per year cap. I am going to bump it up to caover work for a phone company because if tree takes out there fiber optics junction, $1,000,000 aint near enough.


----------



## crater (Mar 11, 2010)

my GL is like 650 per year 300000 limits. Now if you have employees thats another thing. Workmans comp here is based on wages. My wife owns LLC so I am a employee, but my wages are crap  less than 3000 per year so my or her workmans comp is only 550 per yr. This also excludes her from the policy, it's just for employees. Now if wages were 40-50k I'm sure the ins premium would go up also. Check around but absolutly know you policy limits and what it covers. I damaged a rented piece of equipment one time and had to pay for the repairs myself because I had paid for it so I sort of owned it for a short period they explained.


----------



## Rftreeman (Mar 12, 2010)

any local company can help you......make sure you get it for tree work and not landscape work, there is a difference...


----------



## crater (Mar 12, 2010)

hmm, I am covered for Tree work, Landscaping and snow removal: Point is know your coverage before performing the work


----------



## indiansprings (Mar 12, 2010)

I carry a million liability for the llc, cost around 500.00 year. It's a cheap piece of mind. Our farm liabilty covers any hired hands possible injuries, we carry 3 million in general farm liability, scared to ask the wife how much that cost.
We hire the help as independent contractors.


----------



## gwiley (Mar 12, 2010)

You guys are encouraging - the cost doesn't sound as bad as I expected. I am guessing that most insurance companies require some sort of formal training before they will write a policy?


----------



## Rftreeman (Mar 12, 2010)

gwiley said:


> You guys are encouraging - the cost doesn't sound as bad as I expected. I am guessing that most insurance companies require some sort of formal training before they will write a policy?


mine never asked for training, they just said write the check...........


----------



## tree md (Mar 12, 2010)

Never had an agent ask me for any certificate of any kind. 

For Residential you are going to want at least 300K. If you plan on doing any commercial work you will often be required to carry 1 Mil. to bid and do their work.

Just find an agent who has experience at doing liability for tree work. He'll walk you through it and tell you everything you need to know.

Oh yeah, don't plan on using it. If you ever have to use it they will drop you like a hot potato. If you incur any damages be prepared to pay for them out of pocket. You really only want the insurance to cover a catastrophic situation (tree through roof), It is manditory to have for this type of work but something you never want to actually use. When my current agent was going over my policy with me (which I had told him what to insure me for as I have been doing this for almost 20 years) I laughed and told him to save his breath, I didn't plan on using it. I've never filled a claim in almost 20 years of service.


----------



## ropensaddle (Mar 12, 2010)

gwiley said:


> You guys are encouraging - the cost doesn't sound as bad as I expected. I am guessing that most insurance companies require some sort of formal training before they will write a policy?



Mine cost like 2k and is tree liability. Landscape liability is what many are running and they will be upset when they find out they are not covered in the event of an accident. I was getting a different quote the other day and was told that felling in urban areas is not covered even on tree insurance. I was told that ISA arborists said; all felling in urban settings was a no no. This gave tree insurance company's a huge loophole to get out of paying a claim and to me is not right. I do believe they are correct in many cases but I will also bet they fell trees on occasion too. The truth is; if you are not extremely equipped and experienced to handle felling in urban settings you should not even consider doing so. However; for person's in the business that have as much and sometimes more experiance than some certified arborists, felling is sometimes, after limbing to a pole, absolutely as safe if not more so. It rubbed me wrong when I heard this, because it is safer many times to down the spar after it is topped than to rig it all down. Anyway, this is something for all us pro's to think about, are you truly going to be covered or is it just a smoke screen.



Oh and workers con is just that, no one can afford it, some claim they have it and they have a policy 1000.00 cost that covers no one but states all subs are responsible for their own but even with it your still possibly liable. I hate greedy insurance vultures.


----------



## tree md (Mar 12, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Mine cost like 2k and is tree liability. Landscape liability is what many are running and they will be upset when they find out they are not covered in the event of an accident. I was getting a different quote the other day and was told that felling in urban areas is not covered even on tree insurance. I was told that ISA arborists said all felling in urban settings was a no no. This gave tree insurance company's a huge loophole to get out of paying a claim and to me is not right. I do believe they are correct in many cases but I will also bet they fell trees on occasion too. The truth is if you are not extremely equipped and experienced to handle felling in urban settings you should not even consider doing so. However for person's in the business that have as much and sometimes more experiance than some certified arborists felling is sometimes after limbing to a pole absolutely as safe if not more so. It rubbed me wrong when I heard this because it is safer many times to down the spar after it is topped than to rig it all down. Anyway this is something for all us pro's to think about are you truly going to be covered or is it just a smoke screen.



Thanks for the heads up on that Rope. I haven't felled one in nearly a year being that I'd rather piece them out to avoid ground damage but sometimes it is a hell of a lot safer and easier.

Yeah, that kind of rubs me wrong too. I guess I'll just have to bill longer hours for nipping at twigs with my handsaw... :greenchainsaw:


----------



## ropensaddle (Mar 12, 2010)

tree md said:


> Thanks for the heads up on that Rope. I haven't felled one in nearly a year being that I'd rather piece them out to avoid ground damage but sometimes it is a hell of a lot safer and easier.
> 
> Yeah, that kind of rubs me wrong too. I guess I'll just have to bill longer hours for nipping at twigs with my handsaw... :greenchainsaw:



I was hoping someone would say if it is truth. Here they barely pay enough to even bring the bucket to a job but I think if it is truth some arborist's need to keep their mouths sealed:rant:


----------



## gwiley (Mar 12, 2010)

More good info - thanks rope.

The trees I deal with are all out in the country - not even "suburban"  So far I have begged off any trees that I can't just drop as they stand. If I have to piece it out then I tell folks to get a tree removal company that has a bucket or climbers. I don't need to make a living at it - just doing this as favors for folks that I know.

I took down a few that were close to a house last weekend - the tenant there had dropped a few without any sort of face, just a single cut through the stem and he was lucky enough for them to not hit anything - which is when my friend called me over to lend a hand. 

The 2 big oaks that I took were only a few feet from the house and it got me thinking that if I screwed this up my friend wouldn't have a rental house any more. Based on what you guys are saying I guess insurance is more to make the HO feel good about the job than to provide real protection. The real protection is my reading the tree and willingness to hand it off to a professional if it is beyond my skills.


----------



## ropensaddle (Mar 12, 2010)

gwiley said:


> More good info - thanks rope.
> 
> The trees I deal with are all out in the country - not even "suburban"  So far I have begged off any trees that I can't just drop as they stand. If I have to piece it out then I tell folks to get a tree removal company that has a bucket or climbers. I don't need to make a living at it - just doing this as favors for folks that I know.
> 
> ...



I would say if your not absolutely certain you may aught to have them hire a service. The way I understood this insurance man was if it can hit real property and you fall it and goes wrong it is on you. I have 2mil ins. but now wonder if it is worth 2 cents. I felled two that same day 60 foot logs and as usual no damage I have felled thousands or better in my career and never had one get on a roof in 27 years.


----------



## newsawtooth (Mar 13, 2010)

The single best way to increase the chances of catastrophic damage is to introduce a crane into the equation. Without a crane climbers piece out what they feel comfortable with, which usually won't do millions of dollars worth of damage to a home like a failed crane operation will. The paradox is that they are so useful for difficult removals.

The other thing I worry about is hazard evaluations. In many ways it seems that when someone asks for a professional evaluation of tree they are passing the liability on to the evaluator. There is no way to decide unequivocally what the probability of tree failing is given the nature of the forces they are subject to. Go ahead, wager 2 mill on whether that 80 year old silver maple will survive the next early summer snow.


----------

