# Pole Saw for use around wires?



## Thillmaine

Some may call me stupid for asking, but do some arborist retailers sell pole saws for work around wires? As in non conductive, liek you could potentially take a branch directly off a hot wire?


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## Curtis James

They sell hollow and core filled fiberglass poles but it is definetally not recomended to use them to take limbs off hot lines. There is a tool called a hot stick that the power linemen use that would be better suited. Or even using fiberglass pruners would be better then a saw. When working in line clearence we used our pruners. but were still writen up any time we came into contact with the lines. Even if what was cut just grazed the lines. it was a potential write up.This is a super dangerous situation. what size is the line? is it coated? Is it a service drop. There are minimum working distances with all the different voltages. Be aware also any moisture will conduct. damp rope or pruners will still zap you. I use jameson core filled batch tested poles. I have about a twelve foot core filled pruner pole and an eight foot pole saw one. Plus I have two that are four foot that came with the big shot.


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## asiegler04

Better make sure that the pole saw is insulated and call the electric company and ask if they will do a temp service disconnect if the line you are working around is not a primary that serves alot of people. And if a limb falls on a power line you might want to call the electric company better safe than sorry.


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## jmack

Thillmaine said:


> Some may call me stupid for asking, but do some arborist retailers sell pole saws for work around wires? As in non conductive, liek you could potentially take a branch directly off a hot wire?


dont go near the wires minimum safe distance is 10ft


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## 046

not telling you to get near any wires at all. 

huge difference between pole to pole wiring and pole to house wiring. could be same or not. 

pole to pole wiring can be high voltage. regardless if you've got a rated pole or not. call the utility boys...


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## Thillmaine

*Jamesom*

So, with this Jameson pole, you can actually cut a branch and have contact with yourself and the pole, while the pole is in contact with the branch, and or wires and not be zapped? Pole to house I am talking about.


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## 046

sorry I even mentioned a insulated pole. if you have to ask, call for a service drop. don't go near any wire!


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## alanarbor

If you have to ask, you've got no business being near electrical conductors.

Go and get some training in electrical hazards (TCIA's EHAP is a good start)
so you can at least recognize the hardware you're dealing with.

Don't become another statistic-way too many people in our industry have died from contact with electricity.


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## jmack

Thillmaine said:


> So, with this Jameson pole, you can actually cut a branch and have contact with yourself and the pole, while the pole is in contact with the branch, and or wires and not be zapped? Pole to house I am talking about.


once more dont go near the wires with jameson, home depot, your garden weasel, seymour or an old wood one you borrowed from a guy in islesboro.


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## trimwizard

*Once More*

DO NOT TOUCH WIRES OR ANYTHING TOUCHING WIRES!!! Got it yet?
This means don't climb a tree that is touching wires at all unless you are qualified to do so. If you don't understand step potential, Minimum Approach Distances, Line Voltage, Line Clearance, etc., YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED! Or maybe dead...

It doesn't take much electricity at all to stop your heart or create severe health problems even later down the road if you survive getting "bitten".
A good Friend of mine lost all his teeth within a week of each other about two months after being electrocuted while doing a hot stick job while wearing a full rubber suit, and he wrote the Safety Manual for the City Electricians where he lived (large unamed city). 

Have power company shut down lines or find qualified line clearance tree trimmer to get second opinion from or help with job.


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## Mtnman4ever

lie every one else saidDO NOt go nearcth wires . c if you do want ot take a tree dpow n near wire call he power comany . ask them to take the wires down and away from thh hose as well as makingsure the are niot live all the wire.. . I see ple prung near wires altoghte too often get aqualified ptree guy to look at it . It you want ot save money just ask them to drop it andyou can pick upthe mess . a chipper runsfrom 150 and up fo 24 hpurs depending size or if it is buranble and you brun just keep the suff asn use the bush as kindleing or getrid of it how evrypou are lehgally able.

I hav wantedconduitfor yearsgotmybwhis no clijets freak out if you eve comclose to the man hole that should withstanda falliong tree. . but ...


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## climb it

mtnman...spell check


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## BostonBull

I agree with the baove statements, lear what your woring around first.

CUTIS JAMES....you said that even if it was a cut that grazed the lines. Are you dumb? You are lucky to be alive. If I was a foreman and saw you "knick" the lines I would fire you while you were still in the air. I work around 25KV most days and couldnt imagine the flash/burn that would happen I made contact, that is very unsafe!! What if you made a "knick" in a big count fiber...like a 432 ct, or even a 1200 loose tube? I was a linesman for 5 years before doing tree work. This makes me angry and ashamed that our industry doesnt offer better training.

Be safe out there!


And fot the record, the Yellow Jameson poles that are filled with the foam are rated to 100,000 volts when they are clean and dry. Jameson also offers a little Orange rod with brass loops on each end. This is made to be tied into your pruner pole cord, and thus insulating the cord to 100,000 volts. 
*I am not advocatng this to the average person with no hot stick training/maintenance training.*


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## Mtnman4ever

climb it said:


> mtnman...spell check



Climb it this post is about using a pole pruner , pole saw or other tools to cut limbs near wires not my poor typing 

If you must know iwas in a accidnmet not thnaks to a groundy lighting up a butt instead of paying attention to the rope . 

:deadhorse:


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## Curtis James

Yeah I am dumb. I was refering to what I cut grazing the lines. Not my person, saw, pruner or any other tool. . I did not bounce the lines at all but yes occasionally what I clipped did graze the lines as it fell. I am one of the safest people you will ever meet so don't jump all over me over a little miss understanding. I was not holding what grazed the lines either I am talking about the twig falling free from my pruner cut. I was never fired written up or any of the above. And I too worked and cleared transmission lines coming out of sub stations and lines coming straight out of the plant. I am well versed in all my minimum working distance and proper techniques. We were doing our weekly tailgating training. There is no luck to my being alive at all, it is gods will. I appreciate your concern just relax with the foolish name calling.


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## Curtis James

Not all the jameson poles are filled with foam. Some are just hollow. The foam is more expensive but I feel they are worth the extra change. The strength factor ya know.


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## JJackson

A note about the foam filled tested Jameson sticks, don't let that be a false sense of security. We have a hand held tester a work, though we send them for testing at another one of out other facilites every so often. We once took a brand new stick from storage and did a wet test on it (spray distilled water along length and apply tester), it failled. It failled due to the dust that had accumulated on it while in storage. The interesting thing was that fiberglass mop handle from the janitors closet passed. For the stick to work they must be in excellent shape and be clean. They must be well cared for and clean. As dirt builds up on the surface they loose their ability to insulate. As scratches and gouges appear they hold dust and moisture that will cause the insulating properties to decrease. Our sticks are all cleaned with hot stick wipes, treated with a silicone wipe and kept clean. They all have stickers for the last test date and when the next one is, if the sticker is missing it takes a ride to get tested and regalssed if needed. If they are gouged or sratched badly, the get sent to be reglassed. Like any tool they are best kept clean and in excellent shape. If something is close or on the lines call the utility.


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## BostonBull

Curtis I apologise for calling you dumb......now.

You do understand that when I first read your reply, and as you admitted, your post was misleading.

As I stated I was a lineman and I take these things more seriously than the average worker.


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## Industry

Get a service drop done by CMP. they do it all the time. If it is just a service TRIM, then have the customer call CMP to put a sleeve on it or write a work order for it to be trimmed by the guys who do it everyday. We've got insulated tools and are EHAP qualified.


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## Curtis James

Thanks boston bull. After rereading my post I can totally see how my bad typing is so misleading. this has also led me to realize I may be coming off all wrong here. I am all for the service line being dropped. I do this all the time. I will take down the phone and cable myself only after inspecting them to make sure they are not crossing a hot line or touching anything that makes them look dangerous. The phone and cable company will charge you for this service even for a temporary drop. The utility company around here is Ameren IP now and with this change came a change in policies. I can no longer call and get the service line dropped. It has to be the home owner. They want to be sure that the home owner knows that if the line isn't back up by four oclock there will be a seventy five dollar after hours charge for the rehook. If I am not done (which hasn't happend) I always tell the guy dropping the line to just hook it up any way so there will be no charge and I will reschedule another drop. They are super fast at both the drop and the rehook. I usually get the cell phone number of the guy who drops it and I just call him directly for rehook. It works out great. In light of this bad storm we had recentallly I feel guilty trying to get on the schedule because these guys have been so busy. Yet it is better safe then sorry. So it takes a couple extra days is all.Still it has never been weeks. Which I am thankfull for.By the way boston why the switch to tree work if you were a lineman? Usually I had heard it was the other way around. Most guys would get a job with the clearence sub to get familiar with the lines and proper protocall with the likely chance that since they were in a similar work enviroment they would get a lineman slot before some other joe blow college guy because of some similar experience?


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## Curtis James

I forgot to say that the subbed clearance companies around here no longer take care of the service drops. Home owners have to call a regular tree care company to have it done.There were a few occasions when we were in a tree on some ones property(mostly the youthfully challenged) and they would come out and ask us to take off a limb over their service and we would, just to keep up a good reputation but for the most part we had to decline requests of this nature.


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## treejerk1

*polesaw use on wires*

first of all this is not a spitting contest!!!and second it depends on what kind of wire the make up and type of line i trim limbs off of lines all day touching but i know what i can touch and what i can't if its triplex 3 wrap u will be ok or insulated wire on secondary thats ok as long as its good and note near the ceramic conductors.im a line clearance exspert certified!i have a rule of thumb dont trim anything that your not comfortable with or think is not safe for you!!!have a great day


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## 9th year rookie

*Yikes*

I need to take some classes on this!!!!
I just learned the 10 foot rule a couple months ago studying for the arb exam. Up until then, I've been working in trees w/tons of wires going right through and sometimes touching the tree somewhere. Not all the time but occasionally (pole to house only).


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## treejerk1

*wires*

yes i agree take some classes and training!!!never go around or climb or attemp to cut,trim,or prune anything with wires in or on them without prop. training in line clearance. be safe


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## BostonBull

treejerk1 said:


> first of all this is not a spitting contest!!!and second it depends on what kind of wire the make up and type of line i trim limbs off of lines all day touching but i know what i can touch and what i can't if its triplex 3 wrap u will be ok or insulated wire on secondary thats ok as long as its good and note near the ceramic conductors.im a line clearance exspert certified!i have a rule of thumb dont trim anything that your not comfortable with or think is not safe for you!!!have a great day



Where to start?

Secondaries have a *PLASTIC* coating and NO manufacturer will give a rating on the insulating value of this coating. Can you touch it and be ok? Sure. Does that mean that one day there wont be a pin hole on one of the hotlegs and you'll get fried?

There is NO insulated wire in line work, except for the wire they use as taps. Wether those taps are from cut-out to cut-out or for riser poles. But again find me manufacturer that will give a 100% insulated rating.

People who are "certified experts" should need to work as a linesman for a minimum of 2 years or take a test given by linesman, in the field, NOT in a book. You are going to get someone killed giving them this advice. 

Always remember...........NO WIRE IS INSULATED. There are NO wire manufacturers that will give an insulating value on its wire for Primary/secondary use. Thats why when you see line crews working they will put line guard/ line hose on EVRYTHING!

*Jerk: * I worked as a linesman for 5 years, does this make me a certified expert? No! Deos it mean that I know evrything? NO! But I will debate this subject with you anytime you would like, because I do have more real world experinece working around and *WITH* live, energized, overhead and underground conductors.


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## BostonBull

Do you work for PENN? They are a nationally known great co. I cant imagine for one minute they would be leting a representative of their co. be spewing filth over the internet about barehanding LIVE secondary cables.


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## diltree

BostonBull said:


> Do you work for PENN? They are a nationally known great co. I cant imagine for one minute they would be leting a representative of their co. be spewing filth over the internet about barehanding LIVE secondary cables.



BostonBull is righteous in his words....telling someone it is safe to handle live secondary is extremely irresponsible, the advice you should give is to treat every wire, electric, cable, or phone like it is live and potentially life threatening.....were do some of you guys come from...geese


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## treejerk1

*wires*

first of all no body told he to do anything for one!and ye syou have exp. in this thats proven..as for me i was saying what i encounter on my day and no im not a rep of any sorts work for my self..and im still learning thats it you take what you read here and run with it its all opions thats it unless we pay you for training..so post to the questions and not the replys from now own!i think alot of you just surf this place and look for things and people to insult and pick fights with.insted of what its truly for.


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## BostonBull

I can speak for myself and say this website is inteneded as a tool for learning! People come here with questions and expect professional safe replies. 

Speak to the questions and not the answers? You are the reason people here get hurt. Taking advice from people who claim to be experts and are dolts!

The only reason that I responded to your response is that it was cleraly written by an *I*diot, and not _*i*_diot as in a slang/putdown word. Idiot in its truest form, with a capital I, as in Ignoramous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoramus

If you cant give _*safe*_, sage, and good advice, dont give any.

Look at my previous posts. Do I argue? Yes. Do I argue about stuff that is irrelevant and probably good advice? Not usually. Do I call people out for giving PlSS poor advice to people who are trying to learn? You better believe it!

Who gave you your certified expert titile?


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## JJackson

Boston Bull is right. The "insulation" can't be trusted, it's there to protect the wires, not the other way around. The only way to be safe is to have the utility disconnect the drop, we do that for free here. I never was a linesman but I would listen carefully to what they have to say.


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## 046

bostonbull is dead on! 

there's a huge amount of information on AS. 
problem is deciphering what's real from advice that will get you killed.


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## rebelman

I've seen some guys use aluminum poles. Even after I warned them not too, because in the course of a long day you usually end up flirting with some kind wire. Never use aluminum.


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## Chainsaw_Sally

*Aww man...*

<<sigh>>

We use wooden shaft pole pruners and pole saws to clear triplex house drops, *with the blessings of our local utility*. I'm standing on the ground trimming buried trees daily, as per my official company training. Me and dozens of other groundies. 

:help:


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## Mitchell

*E-*

I have zero interest in my crew or myself getting zapped. And i do take safety very seriously. I am not arguing or endorsing anything here just stating what i believe is standard operating practice [right or wrong] for this area based on my obsevations and conversations in the last year and a half. 
I was told by a couple different local electricans and other tree companies [not utility guys] not to worry about house drops. By not worry I mean stay away from them, but if one has to clear the odd branch use a wood or fiberglass pole saw. Ie use common sense, yes they are insulated very well but who wants to die.
Seemingly everyone in this neck of the woods has a tree with branches through thier service drop. [which is sometimes why they call.] If i stayed out of a tree that had a branch within 10 feet of a drop I would not be in business or at least I would have lost more then half of it. So it is not that I am cavalier but rather trying to make the best decisions based on my reality: there are a lot of wires around trees. 
I have also done awarness courses from the local hydro outfit, but it was not terribly informative: in this day and age of cover your ass the theme is stay away under all circomstances. Don't get me wrong i refuse work around wires if it is involved, but I have considered light pruning around or over house drops to be part and parcel of this business; Am i out to lunch on this?

thanks for your


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## clearance

alanarbor said:


> If you have to ask, you've got no business being near electrical conductors.
> 
> Go and get some training in electrical hazards (TCIA's EHAP is a good start)
> so you can at least recognize the hardware you're dealing with.
> 
> Don't become another statistic-way too many people in our industry have died from contact with electricity.



There you go, I wish that only qualified people would respond to these questions (the one day course ain't enough so don't start), like linemen, experienced utility tree guys and so on. Mitchell, in B.C. there are no rules concerning residential service drops, none. The voltage for certified guys, the Hydro permits and all that fun starts at over 750 volts. 120 v. can kill you though, so better safe than sorry. Look up Worksafe regulations part 19, cheers, Jim (Hydro certified utility arborist)


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## Highclimber OR

DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME! CALL THE POWER COMPANY, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO AND WILL BE GLAD YOU DID. Why risk it? My father was nearly killed by a hot line, and my great uncle Doug was killed by a hot line in 1960. Do not be stupid.


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## Highclimber OR

I my experience, the small amount of contact with a house drop will not hurt you . Now if the drop takes a good shot and the wire comes loose, that can ruin your day. They are supposed to be good for 500 lbs. but that's debatable.


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## Rftreeman

you can get non conductive pole saws but in most cases if you are messing with trees around the primary power supply line most of the time the power company will come out and clear the line for you or as stated they will kill the power or in very sever cases they will sometimes take the wire down, they would rather help you get it done safely than have too put the line back up or put you in a body bag, also, I may be wrong but in most states if you are not "line clearance" certified then you are in violation of OSHA rules and can be fined.


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## BlueRidgeMark

Chainsaw_Sally said:


> <<sigh>>
> 
> We use wooden shaft pole pruners and pole saws to clear triplex house drops, *with the blessings of our local utility*. I'm standing on the ground trimming buried trees daily, as per my official company training. Me and dozens of other groundies.
> 
> :help:




Sally, might that be because triplex house drops are WELL INSULATED? Yeah, that just might be why. 

No, I'm not a lineman. I'm an engineer, and I understand electricity. It's what I do. I know what insulation is, and anyone who says house drops are not insulated needs to go back to school.


I think part of the dissension here is because people aren't distinguishing between the house drops and the hot stuff.

I'm not suggesting house drops are _SAFE_! No electrical wiring is SAFE.

But it's a very different ballgame than primaries and secondary lines. I don't hesitate to trim along my house drop with my ordinary fiberglass non-insulated pole. It's just no big deal. I don't drop branches on it, but that's just common sense. I don't want the thing coming down. $$$


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## diltree

I have 12 years of experience as a qualified line clearance tree trimmer. We have completed countless contracts for Boston Edison, Mass Electric and municipal light Dept's. as little as 100 amps can kill you instantly, most service wires are 200amps, and the insulation on a 200 amp tri-plex was designed to prevent outages from squirrels and trees, not to provide any type of electrocution protection. As a qualified line trimmer you learn that all wires are to be considered live, even telephone and cable and that defiantly includes secondary. There are many documented cases of people killing themselves trimming around service wires. Anyone here that suggests working around service wires is completely safe is feeding you grave mis-information.


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## clearance

diltree said:


> I have 12 years of experience as a qualified line clearance tree trimmer. We have completed countless contracts for Boston Edison, Mass Electric and municipal light Dept's. as little as 100 amps can kill you instantly, most service wires are 200amps, and the insulation on a 200 amp tri-plex was designed to prevent outages from squirrels and trees, not to provide any type of electrocution protection. As a qualified line trimmer you learn that all wires are to be considered live, even telephone and cable and that defiantly includes secondary. There are many documented cases of people killing themselves trimming around service wires. Anyone here that suggests working around service wires is completely safe is feeding you grave mis-information.


Never once did I say this was completly safe, Mark actually has a pretty good take on this subject here, one of the better ones, and he isn't even qualified. As little as 1/10 of an amp can kill you I hear, never mind 100. Anyways, bottom line, if you don't know, stay away.


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## BlueRidgeMark

diltree said:


> as little as 100 amps can kill you instantly,



Actually, it only takes about a quarter amp to kill. It's just a matter of getting it in the right place.





diltree said:


> most service wires are 200amps, and the insulation on a 200 amp tri-plex was designed to prevent outages from squirrels and trees, not to provide any type of electrocution protection.




No, it's purpose is to electrically separate two energized wires from each other (since they are 180 degrees out of phase), and from ground. If you didn't have that insulation, you would have a transformer go kaboom. Ever see a transformer go up? Lots of fun! 


Squirrel protection is also considered in the construction, in order to avoid the aforementioned kaboom.  

You are quite correct that electrocution protection is NOT its purpose.


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## BlueRidgeMark

clearance said:


> Anyways, bottom line, if you don't know, stay away.




And THAT is the definitive word on the subject!


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## diltree

Maybe I should have been more clear....an old 100 amp service can kill you instantly, while the new triplex service wires are now 200 amps.

Mark, yes I understand the point of the triplex design, but you need to understand why utility's prefer triplex as well as tree-hendrix, to the older style of open three-phase. The purpose of the design is less outages and transformers going kaboom! and the two major traditional causes of power outages...squirrels and trees.......

The bottom line is in the united states only a qualified line clearance tree trimmer can work within 10 beets of any utility wires including telephone because telephone wires are to be treated as if they are live. Interesting fact; no certification program can make you qualified to work around the wires....the only way to become a Qualified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer is through documented training from an employer that has a utility contract.


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## BlueRidgeMark

diltree said:


> The purpose of the design is less outages and transformers going kaboom! and the two major traditional causes of power outages...squirrels and trees.......



Yep, and that's from shorting the two phases. Hence, the INSULATION.




diltree said:


> The bottom line is in the united states only a qualified line clearance tree trimmer can work within 10 beets of any utility wires



Ten "beets"?  *Beets? *






How did vegatables get into this? 





Yeah, I know it was a typo. Just having fun. 







diltree said:


> including telephone because telephone wires are to be treated as if they are live.



Yessir. Why? Neither a telephone line nor a TV cable is going to hurt you! But too many people can't tell the difference, so the guidelines err on the side of caution and simply say STAY AWAY FROM EVERYTHING. If you never go near ANY wire, it follows that you'll never go near a primary wire.


Which goes back to clearance's point: *If you have to ask, stay away.*


So our original poster should probably stay away, and I'll keep trimming my trees along my service drop, while wishing I could afford to put it underground. <sigh>



And the beet goes on....


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## diltree

"Neither a telephone line nor a TV cable is going to hurt you!" 

This is incorrect, both a cable wire and a telephone wire can become live and kill you. We had a linemen here in Worcester killed working on a telephone wire not realizing that the wire had become live do to a downed primary several sections up the street.

"beet that story"


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## BlueRidgeMark

Point well taken, Dil!


Hmmm. Diltree. Dilltree. Pickles on trees?


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## Rftreeman

a little note on how little it takes too kill a person, in my study class many years ago before I started line clearance (18 years ago) I learned that only 1/10 of an amp can kill you, so guys stay away from the lines and let qualified people clear the lines for you, as I stated before, the power company will send in a crew too clear the lines for you free of charge if you give them notice, I have done it many times, I ran a ticket crew and we did that for people every week.


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## BostonBull

Just to quiet you ALL up.

ALL house services carry electricity!! I was a linesman in Telecom, Fire Alarm, and electrical for a total of 5 years.

Phone carries 24V
CATV carries between 76V-92V...depending on the power supplies used and what the nodes call for.
FA carries between 20-50V
Secondary Electricity 50V-999V
Primary Distribtion 1KV-35KV....depending on the area some people consider this to be sub transmission lines.

The point is stay away. If you are on the job and ask your self the question I wonder if thats hot? You probably shouldn't be working anywhere near the lines.

Now as for Amps....all these systems mentioned above carry amps. I have seen phone systems carry as much as 50amps. Cable systems I have built have been as high as 100amps.

Think about this next time your near a line of ANY kind!!!


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## BostonBull

And once again I must say there is ABSOLUTELY NO wire made in the Electrical industry that you as a trimmer will be anywhere near that the manufacturer has stated is INSULATED...NONE!!!!

I don't care what your buddy billy or bobby or chuck has told you, NONE....got it?


Stay Safe!


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## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Sally, might that be because triplex house drops are WELL INSULATED? Yeah, that just might be why.
> 
> No, I'm not a lineman. I'm an engineer, and I understand electricity. It's what I do. I know what insulation is, and anyone who says house drops are not insulated needs to go back to school.



You are wrong. Show me where the manufacturer says its insulated.......

Ill buy lunch if you can show me an AERIAL wire that the manufacturer says is insulated.

As a matter of fact Ill grab a piece of Triplex from the yard cut it in half, take a pic post it and you can put a red arrow pointing to the insulation. Interested? No your not because there is none there. There is however a thick plastic coating that gives the hot legs and the neutral enough protection to not arc out. BUT go out on a rainy day and listen to the line real close. In areas where there is room between the phases, or where the coating has worn a little thin you will hear it arcing out. When you can hear arcing, it is VERY bad. The MINUTE sparks created are slowly burning through that jacket and will cause problems down the road.


Hope this helps!


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## diltree

Maybe its our engineer friend blueridgeMark that needs to go back to school!


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## clearance

On time this guy I worked with who is a utility guy, the real deal not ISA bunk, was working near a secondaries (triplex) on a res. job. The customer lady was mouthing off, "you'd better not touch that wire, it will kill you, blah,blah,blah...." Buddy said "no it won't" and grabbed it. Then he screamed and yelled out "ahhhhhhhh, ahhhh, I can't let go, ahhhhhh!!!" The lady freaked, the guys were just howling. Anyways, if you are not sure, not trained, stay away.


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## talcott

*I Am A Lineman*

how do

i started line work in 1967 and i am still at it. i presently cut trees daily and work alone most of the time. i had to trim around 14,400 volts to ground today out of a bucket truck. i was wearing ppe includeing 20,000 volt rubber gloves.

i have used up quite a few of my chances in about 40 years of this work.

i am still learning.

something can always go wrong.

when it involves power lines...any kind of power lines.

call the power company.

SAFETY COMES FIRST

bestest ree guards

talcott


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## ropensaddle

Only line clearance professionals are allowed closer than 
10 feet to energized conductors. 
Separation will be greater the higher the voltage as on a 500kv
line I worked you could not even get tree limb within 15 ft because
static or wild voltage as I call it would arc! The hollow poles are
not for conductor work as residue can build up and moisture as
well. If you call power company inform them you are trimming a tree
and has a powerline close they will drop or send trained personal
out to trim back away from lines. I have pulled overhang fifteen
feet and all kinds of wires and the most dangerous are drops
professionals have been killed by thinking the coating lets them
get away with more but the coating often rubs off as limbs
are touching them! I once climbed a tree that was fine was 
trimming three phase and then a misting rain developed.
I had already cleared the phase and was removing stubs to
laterals when all the sudden everything I touched shocked me!
This puzzled me! phase clear, I looked around and the drop was 
burning below me and I was getting indirect contact! I hollered
at the ground man to get the dry pole pruner out of the bin 
and throw it up to me and was able to break limb back and
remove the problem. I had climbed over five thousand trees
to find the one that acted this way. And my practice toward
drops changed in an instant to always checking them before 
going aloft. Another time I had a fellow worker drop a pole saw
accidentally and on its way down blade grazed drop and we
had 4th of July early as it kept burning all the way up the pole.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> On time this guy I worked with who is a utility guy, the real deal not ISA bunk, was working near a secondaries (triplex) on a res. job. The customer lady was mouthing off, "you'd better not touch that wire, it will kill you, blah,blah,blah...." Buddy said "no it won't" and grabbed it. Then he screamed and yelled out "ahhhhhhhh, ahhhh, I can't let go, ahhhhhh!!!" The lady freaked, the guys were just howling. Anyways, if you are not sure, not trained, stay away.


 I would have fired that man immediately that is not the 
real deal that is a moron headed for the casket!!!!!!


----------



## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> And once again I must say there is ABSOLUTELY NO wire made in the Electrical industry that you as a trimmer will be anywhere near that the manufacturer has stated is INSULATED...NONE!!!!
> 
> I don't care what your buddy billy or bobby or chuck has told you, NONE....got it?
> 
> 
> Stay Safe!


 while that is correct utilities have a spray on rubber and rubber blankets
that will offer protection


----------



## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> Just to quiet you ALL up.
> 
> ALL house services carry electricity!! I was a linesman in Telecom, Fire Alarm, and electrical for a total of 5 years.
> 
> Phone carries 24V
> CATV carries between 76V-92V...depending on the power supplies used and what the nodes call for.
> FA carries between 20-50V
> Secondary Electricity 50V-999V
> Primary Distribtion 1KV-35KV....depending on the area some people consider this to be sub transmission lines.
> 
> The point is stay away. If you are on the job and ask your self the question I wonder if thats hot? You probably shouldn't be working anywhere near the lines.
> 
> Now as for Amps....all these systems mentioned above carry amps. I have seen phone systems carry as much as 50amps. Cable systems I have built have been as high as 100amps.
> 
> Think about this next time your near a line of ANY kind!!!


Any fixture
or apparatus should be considered energized and that includes guy wires
as they can become energized as well as the lines you have mentioned
I witnessed a cable tv wire heat up from a car that broke a pole a quarter
mile away It had 7200 volts briefly but that would have killed anyone contacting it at the time. 1/10th of one volt in 12 volts dc can kill a human


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> I would have fired that man immediately that is not the
> real deal that is a moron headed for the casket!!!!!!



Relax buddy. Here in B.C. you have to take 4 weeks of school, work 1200 hours supervised around high voltage primaries, back to school for 2 weeks during this 1200 hours and then write a govt. test and then a test for the utility (B.C. Hydro, usually) to be able to work around power. There are no limits or rules for anyone to do treework around triplex here, none. Once I wrapped a triplex with black tape where the tree I removed had rubbed through the insulation on one side, call the power pigs I guess, no big deal. But I do caution the untrained and unsure to stay away.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Relax buddy. Here in B.C. you have to take 4 weeks of school, work 1200 hours supervised around high voltage primaries, back to school for 2 weeks during this 1200 hours and then write a govt. test and then a test for the utility (B.C. Hydro, usually) to be able to work around power. There are no limits or rules for anyone to do treework around triplex here, none. Once I wrapped a triplex with black tape where the tree I removed had rubbed through the insulation on one side, call the power pigs I guess, no big deal. But I do caution the untrained and unsure to stay away.


I have twenty years
of training and experience around conductors that does not, I repeat not
give me or anyone else the right to grab a wire that has not been isolated proper according to osha specs! It also does not give some one the right
to scare the public what if the lady had a heart attack? I am sorry you
can not see the severity of horseplay, but around energized lines there is not room for it, and that was very unprofessional in my professional opinion!


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> I have twenty years
> of training and experience around conductors that does not, I repeat not
> give me or anyone else the right to grab a wire that has not been isolated proper according to osha specs! It also does not give some one the right
> to scare the public what if the lady had a heart attack? I am sorry you
> can not see the severity of horseplay, but around energized lines there is not room for it, and that was very unprofessional in my professional opinion!



I thought it was freakin hilarious, whatever. We don't have OSHA up here, on another thread here though (Safely falling or something), there is a link to OSHA, were they show you how to fall trees, etc. There are drawings on thier site taken from a publication by our OSHA equivelent, the very same drawings, hmmm. But not the ones that show you how to really fall trees, funny. Here, in order for certified guys to work around downded or "killed" high voltage (above 750 volts) powerlines there are very strict rules and procedures, its all good.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> I thought it was freakin hilarious, whatever. We don't have OSHA up here, on another thread here though (Safely falling or something), there is a link to OSHA, were they show you how to fall trees, etc. There are drawings on thier site taken from a publication by our OSHA equivelent, the very same drawings, hmmm. But not the ones that show you how to really fall trees, funny. Here, in order for certified guys to work around downded or "killed" high voltage (above 750 volts) powerlines there are very strict rules and procedures, its all good.


Define your version of killed isolated is the term that
brings safety to me? This is my last post on this subject as I can not seem to make you see what the real deal is, and only hope the line doesn't get you or your buddy while horse playing or worse a bystander!


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Define your version of killed isolated is the term that
> brings safety to me? This is my last post on this subject as I can not seem to make you see what the real deal is, and only hope the line doesn't get you or your buddy while horse playing or worse a bystander!



The official version of an isolated and grounded line. A line that has been confirmed de-energized by the utility and has been grounded on either side of the work by running a ground from the primary or primaries to the neutral. And then only utility arborists can work around it after signing onto the linemans authorization form. Thanks for the spanking, I know very well what the real deal is, sorry I am not falling to my knees groveling. "my last post on the subject" Who do you think you are, Edison or Tesla?


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> The official version of an isolated and grounded line. A line that has been confirmed de-energized by the utility and has been grounded on either side of the work by running a ground from the primary or primaries to the neutral. And then only utility arborists can work around it after signing onto the linemans authorization form. Thanks for the spanking, I know very well what the real deal is, sorry I am not falling to my knees groveling. "my last post on the subject" Who do you think you are, Edison or Tesla?


Well for a long time I thought that was proper isolation also, but to be properly isolated you need to run a jumper from the neutral to ground rod as well as the steps you mentioned earlier! I did not want to come off wrong but the act you mentioned hits me wrong, as I have supervised men for fifteen years around high voltage with no injury's other than scratches. I am just a very experienced line clearance professional who takes safety serious!


----------



## clearance

The neutral is run into the ground at some, if not many points along the length of the circuit is it not? So the lineman is supposed to bash a ground rod in on either side in your system? Primary to neutral is what I was taught, it is what is done here by linemen, I amm pretty sure they know what to do. Anyways, you seem like a knowledgable chap, look up Worksafe B.C., and then look up section 19 of the act, this is about electrical safety.


----------



## clearance

http://www2.worksafebc.com/publications/OHSRegulation/Part19.asp Here it is.


----------



## clearance

An you know what Rope &, looking at it myself, it seems you are right about low voltage work (triplex). Never looked at that before, only about treework related to high voltage, imagine that.


----------



## Highclimber OR

Power is not my friend, I let the Power Company do their job, we all should.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> The neutral is run into the ground at some, if not many points along the length of the circuit is it not? So the lineman is supposed to bash a ground rod in on either side in your system? Primary to neutral is what I was taught, it is what is done here by linemen, I amm pretty sure they know what to do. Anyways, you seem like a knowledgable chap, look up Worksafe B.C., and then look up section 19 of the act, this is about electrical safety.


 This was mentioned on a safety meeting I sat in on where
they had a small version of a three phase hooked up to a toy train transformer hooked up to a light bulb that lit the old way and did not with the neutral grounded by jumper! The regs here want a ground jumper run to the rod and from the demonstration I saw so do I! I will try to find out why it happens as I have forgotten that, but have not forgot the way it is supposed to be isolated. Linemen are supposed to keep you safe but I have seen them unhook pigtail ground to pot and call it isolated! I refused to work under unsafe conditions and reported this and it was taken care of I check any line I or someone under my supervision works on from experience it is the only way to know it is safe!!!!!! p.s. I think the reason of the added jumper was due to inductive pickup but I will make sure so you will know!
Their is already a rod at the pole to hook jumper to!


----------



## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> while that is correct utilities have a spray on rubber and rubber blankets
> that will offer protection



Spray on rubber? We are not talking about pick-up truck bed liners! :bang: 

And yes we all know that cover up can be placed on ANY line to make it safe.....thats not what we are talking about.


----------



## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> Any fixture
> or apparatus should be considered energized and that includes guy wires
> as they can become energized as well as the lines you have mentioned
> I witnessed a cable tv wire heat up from a car that broke a pole a quarter
> mile away It had 7200 volts briefly but that would have killed anyone contacting it at the time. 1/10th of one volt in 12 volts dc can kill a human



DC? DC.....:bang: 

I know of only 2 DC systems that are still operational in the NE. They are both privately owned, used for specific old machines, come out of their own substations, and are less than 500' runs.

I find it hard to eblieve you have ever trimmed around DC. Whole differnt set of rules with that animal!


----------



## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> Well for a long time I thought that was proper isolation also, but to be properly isolated you need to run a jumper from the neutral to ground rod as well as the steps you mentioned earlier! I did not want to come off wrong but the act you mentioned hits me wrong, as I have supervised men for fifteen years around high voltage with no injury's other than scratches. I am just a very experienced line clearance professional who takes safety serious!



No you DO NOT!!! This is Utility specific. I have worked it both ways....on the other side of the tree. I am VERY comfy in either situation. The neutral grounds out just as well as the ground rod.

You have obviously been brain washed by the utility you spent the most time at. I have worked every state on the East Coast. EVRYWHERE is diferent. They are all right, but different. to say one method is the absolute best is a travesty!


----------



## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> This was mentioned on a safety meeting I sat in on where
> they had a small version of a three phase hooked up to a toy train transformer hooked up to a light bulb that lit the old way and did not with the neutral grounded by jumper! The regs here want a ground jumper run to the rod and from the demonstration I saw so do I! I will try to find out why it happens as I have forgotten that, but have not forgot the way it is supposed to be isolated. Linemen are supposed to keep you safe but I have seen them unhook pigtail ground to pot and call it isolated! I refused to work under unsafe conditions and reported this and it was taken care of I check any line I or someone under my supervision works on from experience it is the only way to know it is safe!!!!!! p.s. I think the reason of the added jumper was due to inductive pickup but I will make sure so you will know!
> Their is already a rod at the pole to hook jumper to!



What voltage was this?

Are you sure this wasnt an ol Delta system?


----------



## BostonBull

Dont forget...........

Secondaries are more dangerous to work around. They are not fused/trippable like primaries. They keep burning until the transformer goe up or the primary cutout blows. Which can be quite some time.


----------



## OTG BOSTON

clearance said:


> On time this guy I worked with who is a utility guy, the real deal not ISA bunk, was working near a secondaries (triplex) on a res. job. The customer lady was mouthing off, "you'd better not touch that wire, it will kill you, blah,blah,blah...." Buddy said "no it won't" and grabbed it. Then he screamed and yelled out "ahhhhhhhh, ahhhh, I can't let go, ahhhhhh!!!" The lady freaked, the guys were just howling. Anyways, if you are not sure, not trained, stay away.



I think I know that guy, his name is Sparky right?

Seriously, this is a good discussion, keep it up.


----------



## diltree

clearance said:


> An you know what Rope &, looking at it myself, it seems you are right about low voltage work (triplex). Never looked at that before, only about treework related to high voltage, imagine that.



Imagine That!


----------



## Rftreeman

that is not insulation on those wires, it is a weather barrier too protect the wire, keep thinking it's insulation and this is what your locals might see someday "MAN DIES WHILE TRIMMING TREE LIMBS AROUND POWER LINES" when grounding primaries, jumpers are run from the primary (hot) line to the neutral, the wire that runs from the neutral to the spike in the ground is for grounding those jumpers and or the truck that the people that are grounding that line are using but most of the time it is not needed for the grounding of primaries too work, the neutral is grounded at all of the poles, it is also proper for the line too grounded on both ends of the work and between any transformers that way if there is a generator running there will not be any back feed from it to the area that you are working.

as far as grabbing lines go, unless you are a trained lineman with proper ppe then you are not too grab any line hot or not and if a lineman ask you too do it (i have been asked before and refused too do so) then he should be terminated. we where told if we where ever caught touching any line (this means cable & phone or guy wires) or breaking minimum approach distance we would be fired then and there, I saw several guys get fired for breaking this rule. when I was a Gf I told my guys I would fire them before I would send them home in a body bag.


----------



## clearance

You guys ever bash hangers off the primary with a tested trimsaw or tested pole pruner?


----------



## Mtnman4ever

If I have to work with a tree or trees that are near wires or can fall on them easlily , I call the power company and tell them I would like th lies taken down if possible if not I ask them to send out a crew to work with me . It adds to the cost but . It also keeps you alive thre only caveat , 
The Power comany is not always n time or even has the right date . 

I have done emergency work around wires in a storm . myrated automatically doulbles . and i make dam,n sure the linesare dead befroe Icaut a thing I have told a cop No wayam i c going in ther untill they are sure those lines are dead I do not care if the treafgficbacks up trun em around or detour them . both ways . I can up once i know they are dead . he got the powerservive ther ASAP as it is the main road into a town and the wi threason they werevfussing about the wires is that they where the line to the police station ! i wasstuned no back up genrorator? even a small deisel one !
Now they have one I cut the trees so it could be placed wherev it is kind of ironic 

botto line avoid wires andcall the power company evcen ifyou are triming near your home


----------



## Rftreeman

clearance said:


> You guys ever bash hangers off the primary with a tested trimsaw or tested pole pruner?


I have used non conductive hydraulic pole saws and pruners for getting limbs off of primary wires, I trimmed power lines for 18 years, I have had many situations where I had too trim a tree that was pretty much on fire when i got too it, this was with a bucket truck, if it had too be climbed the pigtail was pulled and line grounded.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> You are wrong. Show me where the manufacturer says its insulated.......
> 
> Ill buy lunch if you can show me an AERIAL wire that the manufacturer says is insulated.
> 
> As a matter of fact Ill grab a piece of Triplex from the yard cut it in half, take a pic post it and you can put a red arrow pointing to the insulation. =




I'm guessing that you folks have been taught that "insulation" means something that will prevent electrocution.

That's *not* what the term means. Insulation is simply something that impedes the flow of electrical current. It's not an absolute. Some insulators are better than others. Vacuum is insulation. (Check what's inside an electronic tube. Er, "valve" for the Brits.) A plastic sandwich bag is insulation. Even *pure* water is insulation. Add some salts to it and it becomes a very good conductor. NOT an insulator!

Even air is insulation, if you have enough of it. That's why the ceramic insulators on power lines are corrugated. The corrugations make for a longer path for electricity to travel, thus improving the insulating properties.

Air is what USED to insulate house wiring, back in the old days. That and a little cotton. Yes, cotton. House wiring was originally wound with cotton thread, and the wires were run on the walls, exposed, with the two phases separated by about two inches. The cotton and air were enough INSULATION to prevent the current from flowing between the wires.

Wasn't very safe, though. That's why it was moved inside the walls. The cotton and air weren't _good enough_ insulators for safety.


No insulator is perfect. Most lose some insulating ability when heated. All will break down when presented with enough voltage. Many inulators break down gradually, some break down catastrophically, that is, suddenly. All can be physically breached (as with the often mentioned pinholes). 


If there were no insulator between the wires on a house drop, the current would flow directly from one wire to another, much faster than the transformer could handle, and it would overheat and explode.


Oh, Boston, take a look at the second row, on the right end.

http://www.fujikura.com/prod/power/p10_3.html

Or take a look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/28lf3r (Fair warning - it's a PDF file.)



Here, I'll quote it for you:



> APPLICATIONS
> Used to supply power, usually from a pole-mounted transformer, to the user's service head where connection to the service
> entrance cable is made. To be used at voltages of 600 volts phase-to-phase or less and at conductor temperatures not to
> exceed 75°C *for polyethylene insulated conductors or 90°C for crosslinked polyethylene (XLP) insulated conductors.*




Here's a similar listing ('nugher PDF):

http://tinyurl.com/2gejg9



> • Meets or Exceeds: ASTM B-231
> Stranded 1350 Aluminum
> Conductor
> • XLP Insulated Conductors
> • Neutral - ACSR, ASTM B-232
> • ANSI/ICEA S-76-474
> 
> 
> ASSEMBLY
> • Two insulated conductors
> are twisted around the
> neutral conductor




Hmmm. The insulation on this brand can be ordered in 45 or 60 mill thickness. Cool.

Uh, yes, that IS aerial drop.

Guys, I know what happens in these industrial classes. The material is not intended for engineers, the purpose is SAFETY. So the material is often written by professional writers, who are NOT technically competent in the material they are creating. They are given the raw information, and they convert it into a curriculum. Important distinctions are often lost in the translation. Then some guy gets sent to a class, where he's expected to learn the material and then become a trainer himself. More gets lost in the translation.

So you guys who take the classes often get wrong information. That's how it works.


So, Boston, what's for lunch?


----------



## OTG BOSTON

BlueRidgeMark said:


> So, Boston, what's for lunch?




Have you seen his avatar? I'm guessing Alpo


----------



## OTG BOSTON

OTG BOSTON said:


> Have you seen his avatar? I'm guessing Alpo



I'm further speculating on a long rebuttal.........................


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

Yeah, probably so... <sigh> 

http://demo.apogee.net/foe/ftsds.asp

www.nexansenergy.com/egy/power/CdnService/Neutral_Supported_Cable_App_Des.pdf

http://www.answers.com/topic/service-drop-1

http://www.sural.com/products/insulated/drop.htm

www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/7B3AB47D-9242-4CDC-82A9-...BAEF3852/0/pg12_13_14.pdf

www.egr.msu.edu/age/aenewsletter/1_nov_dec_03/surbrook11_03.htm

http://www.egr.msu.edu/age/aenewsletter/1_nov_dec_03/surbrook11_03.htm


I could post HUNDREDS of links like this that talk about the *INSULATED* triplex aerial service drops.

Maybe thousands. :monkey:


Here's a good summation:



> Utilizing these properties, multiplex cable, a new secondary and service-drop multiple conductor, was developed. These cables are either duplex, triplex, or quadruplex, consisting of one, two or three *insulated* conductors wrapped around a bare aluminum or acsr neutral. The bare neutral act as the messenger, supporting the entire cable when strung is an aerial line.




Pizza is good, 'Bull. I like Hawaiian. Maybe dil could chip in a little?


----------



## diltree

Mark.....

Your not on the engineering site pal...yes of course an arborist considers insulation as protection against electrocution. We use insulated buckets, insulated hot gloves and insulated pole saws to apply our trade safely. Your perception is reckless from an arborist's point of view, and telling people that service wires are not dangerous is only going to get some one hurt. The point of these discussions are electricity and agriculture and when the two concepts are combined you bring nothing to the table!

and I'm not surprised you like fruit on your pizza......


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

diltree said:


> Your not on the engineering site pal...




Facts are facts, regardless of where you are.




diltree said:


> yes of course an arborist considers insulation as protection against electrocution. We use insulated buckets, insulated hot gloves and insulated pole saws



Yep. And some of the wires you work around are not insulated, and some are. 




diltree said:


> Your perception




It's not my "perception", dil. It's fact. Service drops are insulated. You might as well argue that the sun comes up in the west.




diltree said:


> is reckless from an arborist's point of view, and telling people that service wires are not dangerous is only going to get some one hurt.




Go on back there and find where I said they weren't dangerous.




diltree said:


> The point of these discussions are electricity and agriculture and when the two concepts are combined you bring nothing to the table!



Well, if having the correct facts, and considerably more knowledge about electricity than you is NOTHING, well, go for it. You won't learn anything that way, and how that improves your life or makes you safer is a mystery, but it's your life.


Actually, your misunderstanding about insulation is a lot more likely to get someone hurt or killed than having an accurate understanding of the subject. Truth is your friend. Error is not. Thinking that "insulation = protection from electrocution" is dangerous.


----------



## diltree

Mark,

What don't you understand about this being an arborist forum........like I said, in the field: insulation refers to protection from electricity. You have no traing as an arborist, or as a line clearance tree trimmer so I can understand were you are completely ignorant to that fact. I'm not on here feeding people B.S., I actually operate a million dollar corporation that has 50 years of experience of completing line clearance contracts safely with no injuries or fatalities. What people need to know here is whats safe and whats not! You trimming your service wire from the ground is not safe....Bottom line. You mentioned before that you couldn't afford to place your service underground. Well with your "status" as an engineer maybe you should find a good paying job, and get it done for your own safety, don't worry mark there are plenty of high paying jobs out there for someone of your qualifications.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

diltree said:


> What don't you understand about this being an arborist forum........like I said, in the field: insulation refers to protection from electricity.



I understand that. It's too bad, too, because such a wrong idea is dangerous. Just because everybody you know thinks that insulation is protection from electrocution, doesn't make it true. It's not, and it's a dangerous idea.




diltree said:


> You have no traing as an arborist, or as a line clearance tree trimmer




Never claimed to. But I know what insulation is.




diltree said:


> so I can understand were you are completely ignorant to that fact. I'm not on here feeding people B.S., I actually operate a million dollar corporation that has 50 years of experience of completing line clearance contracts safely with no injuries or fatalities.





That's commendable. Doesn't mean you know what insulation is. You don't.




diltree said:


> What people need to know here is whats safe and whats not! You trimming your service wire from the ground is not safe....Bottom line.



Never said it was.





diltree said:


> You mentioned before that you couldn't afford to place your service underground. Well with your "status" as an engineer maybe you should find a good paying job,




I've got a good paying job, probably enough to make most tree folks on this site green with envy.

I'm also digging myself out from under a stack of medical bills, and horizontal boring is not cheap, and not my highest priority. (I could trench, but I'd kill a bunch of trees.)

Nor does that have anything to do with the question of insulation.


Dil, would you care to go to any of those many links I posted and tell the manufacturers of cables that _they_ don't know what they are talking about when they say their cables are insulated? Care to go to, oh, pick any power company, and look over their regs that call for *insulated* triplex for service drops and tell them they don't know what they're talking about? HINT: You'll find the language almost identical for just about any power company in the U.S., because they all take their wording from the NESC. Hey, whilie your'e at it, why don't you straighten out THOSE idiots? They're not arborists, after all, what do THEY know about electricity?

:monkey: 


Dil, you can learn, or you can stand on your pride. Your choice.


Not learning can be dangerous.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

TreeCo said:


> I'm with you Diltree. Blueridgemark should butt out of arborist 101. He has no business here offering advice to arborist about trimming around power lines and service drops.




Where do you think the regs about working around power lines come from? Who develops those safety regulations?

Arborists?

Or electrical engineers?

HINT: It's not arborists.



TreeCo said:


> He just doesn't know when he doesn't know.



That's a good description of you two. Worse, you refuse to learn. Go tell _the entire electrical power industry_ that they are all wrong when _they say_ that service drops are insulated.


BTW, Dan, seals DO deteriorate with age. Leave any internal combustion engine laying around long enough, and the seals will deteriorate. Some faster, some slower, but all will deteriorate eventually. If you think it makes sense to rebuild an engine, and skip replacing a few seals, be my guest.


----------



## diltree

Mark,

Why cant you recognize that insulation can be a number of different things. The word insulation holds a completely different meaning to a Carpenter then it does to a line clearance tree trimmer. You said that you were perfectly safe to trim your service wire because they are insulated. Your wrong, they do not provide the type of insulation that makes them safe to work around for anyone except a qualified line trimmer. Thats the message we need to send here on arborist 101, not pickles on trees or fruit on your pizza, go hit the joke forum where you belong.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

Let me take this a bit out of order:



diltree said:


> not pickles on trees


  Did you take that crack as an insult? If so, I most sincerely apologize. I did NOT intend to insult you. I was just making a joke. A bad one, perhaps, but I certainly was NOT trying to insult you.

I respect you, Dil, and we have gotten along just fine before now, so I wanted to clear that out of the way.




diltree said:


> Why cant you recognize that insulation can be a number of different things. The word insulation holds a completely different meaning to a Carpenter then it does to a line clearance tree trimmer.



*ABSOLUTELY!*

Maybe we're getting somewhere.

Of course, to a carpenter the word insulation probably means something pink and fluffy that makes you itch. Obviously, we're not talking about _that_.


When we're talking about electricity, it means something else, but it does NOT mean anything you want it to mean. It does not mean NOT mean "protection from electrocution". I can understand how that idea got started and accepted in the tree industry, but it's not correct, and it's _dangerous_. It's based on an incomplete understanding. Go ask a power company engineer if it means that. He'll tell you NO WAY! Why? Because he knows better. There's NO SUCH THING. There are only degrees of protection, degrees of danger. Or, inversely, degrees of safety. 

Something that is "insulated" will give you a higher degree of protection from electrocution than something that is not, but NOTHING can be relied on to be "protection from electrocution". That is a dangerous idea. You've made the term to mean something more than it does, and it's a dangerous error. You tell some new guy that this pole will protect him from electrocution, and you've given him false confidence. Dil, I don't think you'd tell that to someone, would you? Yet by insisting on your definition of "insulation", that's reallly the message you put across.

That's like thinking that a fall harness will protect you from a fall. It's certainly LESS dangerous to climb with a fall harness. It might even be fair to say it's a LOT less dangerous. But it's not "perfectly safe", right? And you would never tell someone that it was.

(Yes, I've done climbing. Not trees, steel towers. <shrug> Gravity doesn't care if you fall from a tree or a tower.)


Insulation won't keep you safe any more than a fall harness will. KNOWLEDGE is a much better safety device than any insulated pole or fall harness, right?



diltree said:


> You said that you were perfectly safe to trim your service wire





No, sir, I did not. It's NOT perfectly safe. It's a lot less dangerous than trimming primaries. It's a lot less dangerous than a lot of other activities. (Base jumping, for example.) But it's not safe. Neither is driving to work.



diltree said:


> because they are insulated. Your wrong, they do not provide the type of insulation that makes them safe to work around



Didn't say they were. They are much less dangerous than primaries, but they are not _safe_.




diltree said:


> Thats the message we need to send here on arborist 101,



Agreed. Which is why I agreed with clearance's bottom line: "If you have to ask, stay away". I would never advise Joe Homeowner to mess with his service drop. I know enough about it (including what the dangers are and what cracks look like) that I feel comfortable doing so, _for myself_. Again, though, if you have to ask, don't.

Let's back up and look at the big picture. Several people on this thread (and others) have insisted that service drops are not insulated. My point here is that's simply not true, and I have provided ample evidence of that to anyone who has an open mind. The entire electric power industry considers those lines to be insulated, from the manufacturers to the contractors who install them to the linemen who work on them to the people who write the electrical codes. They ARE insulated. Do they consider them SAFE?

No. Nobody said they were, as far as I can tell.


----------



## DonnyO

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Where do you think the regs about working around power lines come from? Who develops those safety regulations?
> 
> Arborists?
> 
> Or electrical engineers?
> 
> HINT: It's not arborists.




Now that is just bad misinformation. Yet another thread derailed by a guy who spends more time on a keyboard than in or working on trees.:notrolls2: especially the dork type


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

DonnyO said:


> Now that is just bad misinformation.



How is it misinformation? Where do those regs come from? Who prepares them?


Facts, please. I've presented plenty. Your turn.


----------



## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> I'm guessing that you folks have been taught that "insulation" means something that will prevent electrocution.
> 
> That's *not* what the term means. Insulation is simply something that impedes the flow of electrical current. It's not an absolute. Some insulators are better than others. Vacuum is insulation. (Check what's inside an electronic tube. Er, "valve" for the Brits.) A plastic sandwich bag is insulation. Even *pure* water is insulation. Add some salts to it and it becomes a very good conductor. NOT an insulator!
> 
> Even air is insulation, if you have enough of it. That's why the ceramic insulators on power lines are corrugated. The corrugations make for a longer path for electricity to travel, thus improving the insulating properties.
> 
> Air is what USED to insulate house wiring, back in the old days. That and a little cotton. Yes, cotton. House wiring was originally wound with cotton thread, and the wires were run on the walls, exposed, with the two phases separated by about two inches. The cotton and air were enough INSULATION to prevent the current from flowing between the wires.
> 
> Wasn't very safe, though. That's why it was moved inside the walls. The cotton and air weren't _good enough_ insulators for safety.
> 
> 
> No insulator is perfect. Most lose some insulating ability when heated. All will break down when presented with enough voltage. Many inulators break down gradually, some break down catastrophically, that is, suddenly. All can be physically breached (as with the often mentioned pinholes).
> 
> 
> If there were no insulator between the wires on a house drop, the current would flow directly from one wire to another, much faster than the transformer could handle, and it would overheat and explode.
> 
> 
> Oh, Boston, take a look at the second row, on the right end.
> 
> http://www.fujikura.com/prod/power/p10_3.html
> 
> Or take a look at this:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/28lf3r (Fair warning - it's a PDF file.)
> 
> 
> 
> Here, I'll quote it for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a similar listing ('nugher PDF):
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2gejg9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm. The insulation on this brand can be ordered in 45 or 60 mill thickness. Cool.
> 
> Uh, yes, that IS aerial drop.
> 
> Guys, I know what happens in these industrial classes. The material is not intended for engineers, the purpose is SAFETY. So the material is often written by professional writers, who are NOT technically competent in the material they are creating. They are given the raw information, and they convert it into a curriculum. Important distinctions are often lost in the translation. Then some guy gets sent to a class, where he's expected to learn the material and then become a trainer himself. More gets lost in the translation.
> 
> So you guys who take the classes often get wrong information. That's how it works.
> 
> 
> So, Boston, what's for lunch?




Mark thats all fine and Dandy, but I have only ever seen those types of drops in industrial areas.

Those are not what we are talking about. We are talking about standard 1/0 house services.

And you are 100% correct all those things listed are considered insulated. Again those are NOT what we are talking about. 

We(linesman) consider insulation the pink(usually) THICK jacket BETWEEN the conductor and the outside plastic jacket.

The point is you are wrong. You listed highly specialized cables in those posts. I could show you ADSS fiber optic cables that are insulated to 500KV, but to a normal person, in a normal situation, yuo mention fiber and they think of lashed cables on a steel strand support wire.

I am glad you are in this discussion as you are a wealth of knowledge!! But rememeber ther K.I.S.S. principle!

None of these guys here will ever see ANY of the cables you listed, nevermind work around them.


----------



## DonnyO

BlueRidgeMark said:


> How is it misinformation? Where do those regs come from? Who prepares them?
> 
> 
> Facts, please. I've presented plenty. Your turn.



ANSI A-300 and Z-133 both have sections pertaining to arborists' working around energized lines. Last time I checked the committee was made up of mostly arborists'.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> Mark thats all fine and Dandy, but I have only ever seen those types of drops in industrial areas.



Interesting. I haven't been around Boston much. Maybe you folks have really antiquated wiring or something.



BostonBull said:


> Those are not what we are talking about. We are talking about standard 1/0 house services.
> 
> And you are 100% correct all those things listed are considered insulated. Again those are NOT what we are talking about.
> 
> The point is you are wrong. You listed highly specialized cables in those posts.
> 
> None of these guys here will ever see ANY of the cables you listed, nevermind work around them.



Those are standard house drops. All over the country. National Electric Code, Section 230, I believe. Are you familiar with it?


Hmmmm. Seems that Florida Power thinks that house AND commercial service drops are insulated, too. 



> A service drop or service cable connects the transformer to the weatherhead or downpipe of a home or business. Service drops are the overhead lines that connect an aerial transformer to a weatherhead. Service cables are underground lines that connect an aerial or padmount transformer to a downpipe via an underground route. Both the service drop and cable are insulated wires.



Whats with all these power industry people thinking that service drops are insulated? What idiots! They need to hire an arborist to teach them about electricity!


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

DonnyO said:


> ANSI A-300 and Z-133 both have sections pertaining to arborists' working around energized lines. Last time I checked the committee was made up of mostly arborists', and one engineer they keep around for comic relief :jester:



Do you really mean to tell me that a bunch of arborists got togehter and decided on what consituted safe working conditions around power lines? Can you really be that stupid?


I have some bad news for you. They took their regs straight from the NESC.


----------



## BostonBull

Go get me a picture of one of those houise drops in FL.

I have two of my best and clossest friends that work for FP&L......I went own and worked on their system for 1 year.....

Your wrong, admit it!

Like I said we deal with *usually* #2, #4, 1/0, 2/0, 3/0, and 4/0 triplex house services.

Alot of times all you see are old number 4 copper services, and no ts not a Boston thing. I was an on the road linesman for 4 years, I worked every state on the eastern seaboard and as far west as Iowa. I have only seen those drops a few times.

and as for the regs they are created by Engineers, linesman, power co, and OSHA. So you get partial credit on those ones. Everyone listed makes suggestions and OSHA decides on the standards with the national electric code people.


----------



## BostonBull

Deal with it 99% of the house drops have a WEATHER coating/jacket on them!!


----------



## BostonBull

So your saying that the secondary cables are insulated and have a di-electric coating in them?

Not 95% of the ones I have seen!


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BB, that link is directly to the FP&L site. They call it insulated. Every single power company reference calls the house drops insulated. How much more clear can it be? 

It's really not complicated, folks. Insulation is the stuff that's put there to keep the current from flowing where it's not wanted. Big insulation, little insulation, pink, purple, black, clear, thick, thin, flexible, rigid, doesn't matter. If it's put there to keep current from flowing in an undesired direction, it's insulation.

If you were taught the word means something else, you got bad training in linesman school!




BostonBull said:


> and as for the regs they are created by Engineers, linesman, power co, and OSHA. So you get partial credit on those ones. Everyone listed makes suggestions and OSHA decides on the standards with the national electric code people.



Thank you! I didn't see any arborists on your list. 

Canada follows a similar process.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> Deal with it 99% of the house drops have a WEATHER coating/jacket on them!!




Scrape off that "weather coating" and what would you have?


----------



## BostonBull

All those links talk about aerial CABLES. We are not talking about aerial cable. By the standard ALL electric aerial CABLES must be insulated with a DI-electric coating.

We are talking about triplex WIRE, not cables......and yes I do realize there are wires inside the cable..... :bang:


----------



## BostonBull

http://www.powerlinemanmag.com/pictures/2004/september/ross/jr1.jpg

Click the link and see the wire coming to the left down past his bucket? Thats a house drop.....thats what we are talking about.

Those are what is installed 99% of the time for residential Aerial drops, wanna argue it? Ill post this at 3 of the lineman forums I belong to and let them chew it up! 

YOU ARE WRONG!!!


----------



## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> BB, that link is directly to the FP&L site. They call it insulated. Every single power company reference calls the house drops insulated. How much more clear can it be?
> 
> It's really not complicated, folks. Insulation is the stuff that's put there to keep the current from flowing where it's not wanted. Big insulation, little insulation, pink, purple, black, clear, thick, thin, flexible, rigid, doesn't matter. If it's put there to keep current from flowing in an undesired direction, it's insulation.
> 
> If you were taught the word means something else, you got bad training in linesman school!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! I didn't see any arborists on your list.
> 
> Canada follows a similar process.



It has an insulating value.....which over time deteriorates. Noone knows if it is still good or not without testing. Telling these guys here it is OK to touch/play/work with this stuff, without PPE, and proper traing/testing is WRONG!!!!


----------



## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Scrape off that "weather coating" and what would you have?



Bare Wire!!!!! How hard is this for an engineer to get??? You are wrong!!


----------



## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Thank you! I didn't see any arborists on your list.
> 
> Canada follows a similar process.



I was talking about the National electric code for linesman.

for tree work it is a bunch of Arborists, as its the ANZI standard, not OSHA we go by.....and SURPRISE!!!! Its written by Arborists FOR Arborists....tough concept!

Engineers are great, but as is evident here they tend to over analyze stuff, and they are NEVER wrong!!


----------



## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Canada follows a similar process.




FUK Canada!!! We are in America talking about americas standards!

Keep Canadas standards out of this.


----------



## DonnyO

*you have no idea*



BlueRidgeMark said:


> Do you really mean to tell me that a bunch of arborists got togehter and decided on what consituted safe working conditions around power lines? Can you really be that stupid?



How stupid I can be. 

You took a perfectly good thread for arborist101 and turned it into electical pi$$ing contest for a dork with nothing better to do. Congradulations. 
Tomorrow I'll be out working around powerlines and you'll be here pontificating about some other subject you have peripheral knowledge of, and linking the entire internet to your posts


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> Bare Wire!!!!!



Yep. Short circuit. No INSULATION between two conductors of opposite phase. And *KABOOM*. Blown transformer. 

I don't where you got the idea that the "coating" on a house drop is just a "weather coating", but you are dead wrong. If that's _really_ what they are teaching linesmen, a whole lot of people should be fired.

More likely it's an industry urban legend that has sprouted from inadequate training. The same thing happens in every industry.




BostonBull said:


> It has an insulating value.....which over time deteriorates. Noone knows if it is still good or not without testing.



Of course it has an insulating value. That's what it's there for - to keep the two hot leads away from each other and away from the neutral. If you don't have insulation, you have a short circuit. 

Say, ever read any instructions for making a house drop connection? It will talk about trimming back the INSULATION to a certain measurement, to insert into the connector.




BostonBull said:


> Telling these guys here it is OK to touch/play/work with this stuff, without PPE, and proper traing/testing is WRONG!!!!



Boston, show me where I told anybody it's okay for them to touch/play/work with this stuff.


Where?

While you're at it, show me anywhere in the electrical code, or from any other authoritative source, that says house drops are not insulated.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> I was talking about the National electric code for linesman.
> 
> for tree work it is a bunch of Arborists, as its the ANZI standard, not OSHA we go by.....and SURPRISE!!!! Its written by Arborists FOR Arborists....tough concept!




The ANSI specs are taken directly, almost verbatim, from the NEC. 


You didn't know that?


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

DonnyO said:


> How stupid I can be.
> 
> You took a perfectly good thread for arborist101 and turned it into electical pi$$ing contest for a dork with nothing better to do. Congradulations.
> Tomorrow I'll be out working around powerlines and you'll be here pontificating about some other subject you have peripheral knowledge of, and linking the entire internet to your posts



Well, you're real good at ranting and raving, but I haven't seen any facts from you.

Nor do I expect to.


----------



## clearance

Rftreeman said:


> I have used non conductive hydraulic pole saws and pruners for getting limbs off of primary wires, I trimmed power lines for 18 years, I have had many situations where I had too trim a tree that was pretty much on fire when i got too it, this was with a bucket truck, if it had too be climbed the pigtail was pulled and line grounded.



Wow, here you are not allowed to do this, even with dielectrically tested tools, ever, it is a major safety violation. Mark, you are getting beaten here like a red headed step child, give up. Now Mark, a fault on a triplex does not blow the transformer, it just doesn't, it will blow the fuse to the secondaries though, thats what the fuse is there for. Again, if you are untrained, unsure, don't do it. And further more, state your qualifications before beaking off here, if you do treework around the power all the time, are a lineman, your input is valuable.


----------



## BostonBull

Mark.....I am done, I am getting tired repeating myself....

Did you look at the pic in the link? Those are house drops not that huge $$$ CABLE you posted earlier.


----------



## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> The ANSI specs are taken directly, almost verbatim, from the NEC.
> 
> 
> You didn't know that?



There are parts that are copied per the SUGGESTION of an official sitting on the baord.

The NEC doesnt make regulations about working around lines.....

You didnt know that?


----------



## DonnyO

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Well, you're real good at ranting and raving




Thank you, you are really good at posting long threads with a ton of links


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

DonnyO said:


> Thank you, you are really good at posting long threads with a ton of links





Yes, it's called providing factual information, with supporting documentation.


----------



## Rftreeman

diltree said:


> Mark,
> like I said, in the field: insulation refers to protection from electricity.


not trying too step on any body's toes here, but who do you work for because if they have told you that the "insulation" will keep you safe from being killed and that because the wire is "insulated" means you can touch it then they are wrong, keep thinking that you can't get hurt by a line that is "insulated" and you might just get bit pretty dang bad or killed, the power company's also have coated primary wires, would you grab one of those? I have seen 24,000 volt lines "insulated" lay on the ground burn and blows chunks of asphalt and concrete up as bigs as 20 inches in diameter and 2 to 3 feet deep so if that was "insulated" then why did it do that? also, when I was in Louisiana after Katrina there was a guy killed by a so called "insulate" wire.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> Mark.....I am done, I am getting tired repeating myself....
> 
> Did you look at the pic in the link? Those are house drops not that huge $$$ CABLE you posted earlier.



I looked at it. Typical triplex. Insulated. Has to be.


----------



## clearance

BlueRidgeMark said:


> I looked at it. Typical triplex. Insulated. Has to be.



Mark, I was trained by linesmen, it is not considered insulation, just weather protection. I have handled it, but it is against the rules, here and apparently in the U.S.. Why are you so adament about this? And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

Rftreeman said:


> not trying too step on any body's toes here, but who do you work for because if they have told you that the "insulation" will keep you safe from being killed and that because the wire is "insulated" means you can touch it then they are wrong, keep thinking that you can't get hurt by a line that is "insulated" and you might just get bit pretty dang bad or killed, the power company's also have coated primary wires, would you grab one of those? I have seen 24,000 volt lines "insulated" lay on the ground burn and blows chunks of asphalt and concrete up as bigs as 20 inches in diameter and 2 to 3 feet deep so if that was "insulated" then why did it do that? also, when I was in Louisiana after Katrina there was a guy killed by a so called "insulate" wire.



Your post is a good illustration of what I was trying to tell Dil. A wrong understanding of what the word means can be dangerous.

Insulation does NOT mean that it will stop any and all current from flowing. It's not a black and white, on or off thing. It's not, either INSULATED, and no current can flow, or it's UNINSULATED, and current will flow. It's a continuum, a sliding scale. 

It depends on the insulation and the voltages involved. And when I say the insulation, I mean the AIR insulation (that is, the space between you and the line) _*as well as*_ the plastic or rubber or whatever material is being used for insulation. It depends on the THICKNESS of the insulation and the type of material (whether plastic or air or whatever). And not that it matters to this discussion, but whether it's DC or AC, and what frequency, also makes a difference.

It takes a lot more insulation to stop 24,000 volts from going where it wants to than it takes to stop 120 volts. What may be adequate insulation in one situation (up on a tower) may NOT be adequate insulation in another (laying on the ground).

Insulation is a lot LESS than you folks seem to think. It's just something that is intended to prevent electric current from going where it's not wanted. That's all. It's NOT a guarantee of safety.

If you have ENOUGH insulation, you can work around wires. That's what you do when you keep XX feet away from a wire with YYY voltage. That DISTANCE is insulation. Air insulation. The insulation on a service drop (usually polyethylene) is a much more effective dialectric than air , so you don't need as much to control the flow of current. This means you need LESS distance. Now you need mils instead of feet.

That's why Sally's local utility doesn't mind them trimming from the ground. They have proper training, and they are using proper tools for THAT job.


Have you ever seen a tree branch rubbing a service drop? Of course, you see it all the time. No big deal. Trim it back before it rubs through... What? The insulation. The stuff that keeps the two phases from shorting out.

And I keep asking this question, and nobody is even _trying_ to answer me:

Where did I say that service drops are "safe"?


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

clearance said:


> Mark, I was trained by linesmen, it is not considered insulation, just weather protection. I have handled it, but it is against the rules, here and apparently in the U.S.. Why are you so adament about this? And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?



Clearance, you know I take this seriously, you've seen what I've posted about standing waves, etc.

On this subject I've posted plenty of links. "Lineman say..." doesn't mean *squat* when I've posted links to manufacturers specifications and utility company websites that all call this stuff insulated.

I don't know why linemen working in the industry are so badly informed, but apparently *they are*. Maybe they are deliberately giving out wrong information thinking that it will make people more careful, I don't know. But it's still wrong information.

Check the NEC, check any power company website, check the links I've posted. That stuff around the triplex is insulation, NOT weather coating. Uninsulated service drops are not legal anywhere in the U.S. or Canada. I don't know if some really old ones are grandfathered in a few places, but certainly not any new ones in the last few decades, at least.


As for why I am so adamant, it's simple. Having wrong information about something as dangerous as electric power can't possibly be safer than having the RIGHT information.

Even in the context of Arboristsite, if you tell Joe Homeowner that he shouldn't mess with trees around his service drop because the lines aren't insulated, and he happens to know better, he's likely going to blow off everything else you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Which might get him killed, because the truth is, you DO know what you're talking about with this stuff, but your one bad piece of information blew your credibility, and he didn't listen to the rest of your sound advice.

And I know you don't want that to happen.


----------



## clearance

clearance said:


> Mark, I was trained by linesmen, it is not considered insulation, just weather protection. I have handled it, but it is against the rules, here and apparently in the U.S.. Why are you so adament about this? And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?



.


----------



## diltree

Rftreeman said:


> not trying too step on any body's toes here, but who do you work for because if they have told you that the "insulation" will keep you safe from being killed and that because the wire is "insulated" means you can touch it then they are wrong, keep thinking that you can't get hurt by a line that is "insulated" and you might just get bit pretty dang bad or killed, the power company's also have coated primary wires, would you grab one of those? I have seen 24,000 volt lines "insulated" lay on the ground burn and blows chunks of asphalt and concrete up as bigs as 20 inches in diameter and 2 to 3 feet deep so if that was "insulated" then why did it do that? also, when I was in Louisiana after Katrina there was a guy killed by a so called "insulate" wire.




Did you read this entire thread? I hope you didn't, because if you did this post is insane.....as a qualified line trimmer you should consider no wires "insulated" under no circumstances...ever!


----------



## diltree

clearance said:


> .



Well said


----------



## diltree

Mark,

You know What...we are not on the same page, and that is OK. I can only tell this forum what we have taught our line trimmers for the past 50 years with an incredible rate of success. I believe in our teachings referring to electricity and trimming and I stand by our perception. I respect you , but I'm very sorry you disagree with my point of view. I believe the things I have said will lead only to safe work practices around charged wires. There is a chance you know more about electricity then myself. Still, There is no doubt in my mind that you have never slipped a 20' piece down and past the Hendrix, or jumped a head over the open three phase and into the road. You may have heard a transformer blow; but never have had one blow because of the piece you had just freshly cut. You may be able to read some web sites and perhaps sympathize with the trade, but you will never empathize with the stress and grave reality of working with live wires. In my opinion, there is no such thing as insulated wire and anyone working for my company will treat all lines as if they are live!


----------



## ddhlakebound

*Good thread gone to crap....*

I hope you all realize you are really arguing over the PERCEPTION of insulation. 

Is it insulated?

Yes, the phases are at least insulated from each other, or the circuit would blow. 

Can we consider it insulated?

No, because the wires we work around daily could have failures in the insulation which have not caused the circuit to blow, and direct or indirect contact could result in injury or death. 

Bottom line....Let line clearance trimmers do the trimming around power, because they know you can NEVER consider any line insulated, wether it is or not. 

Now, will everybody please have a coke and a smile?


----------



## diltree

ddhlakebound said:


> I hope you all realize you are really arguing over the PERCEPTION of insulation.
> 
> Is it insulated?
> 
> Yes, the phases are at least insulated from each other, or the circuit would blow.
> 
> Can we consider it insulated?
> 
> No, because the wires we work around daily could have failures in the insulation which have not caused the circuit to blow, and direct or indirect contact could result in injury or death.
> 
> Bottom line....Let line clearance trimmers do the trimming around power, because they know you can NEVER consider any line insulated, wether it is or not.
> 
> Now, will everybody please have a coke and a smile?



Thats my point....Thank You


----------



## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> DC? DC.....:bang:
> 
> I know of only 2 DC systems that are still operational in the NE. They are both privately owned, used for specific old machines, come out of their own substations, and are less than 500' runs.
> 
> I find it hard to eblieve you have ever trimmed around DC. Whole differnt set of rules with that animal!


That was explaining how little of current it
takes to kill a human and read it in a safety manual I have no idea where they got the info! I never said any thing of working on dc power


----------



## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> No you DO NOT!!! This is Utility specific. I have worked it both ways....on the other side of the tree. I am VERY comfy in either situation. The neutral grounds out just as well as the ground rod.
> 
> You have obviously been brain washed by the utility you spent the most time at. I have worked every state on the East Coast. EVRYWHERE is diferent. They are all right, but different. to say one method is the absolute best is a travesty!


 You may be right, It was an osha meeting which most of the material was 
on scaffolds and extension cords which we thought was strange! The 
line was powered by a toy train transformer and the fact that the line 
lit the bulb is enough to get my vote! As I will not work on downed lines
any other way!!!!!!!! What about when some crackhead stole
the ground off pole or have been damaged I prefer knowing
the I didn't execute an innocent fellow worker over a ten minute procedure.


----------



## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> Dont forget...........
> 
> Secondaries are more dangerous to work around. They are not fused/trippable like primaries. They keep burning until the transformer goe up or the primary cutout blows. Which can be quite some time.


What about 500kv
it runs non grounded and arcs but I agree because people seem to think
they're less deadly and that can be a fatal mistake.


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> What about 500kv
> it runs non grounded and arcs but I agree because people seem to think
> they're less deadly and that can be a fatal mistake.



Not anyone with a brain in thier head. You ever work beside a 500 line? I like it when you push off blocks, like over 30ft. from the line and you get jolted every time. I really like the buzz in the air and the crackling sounds when it is wet outside.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Not anyone with a brain in thier head. You ever work beside a 500 line? I like it when you push off blocks, like over 30ft. from the line and you get jolted every time. I really like the buzz in the air and the crackling sounds when it is wet outside.


 Yes I have worked around the stuff and is definitely an experience 
I missed out on the jolting part!!!! I have felt hair stand and had dees
tingle me wild stuff!


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## BostonBull

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Clearance, you know I take this seriously, you've seen what I've posted about standing waves, etc.
> 
> On this subject I've posted plenty of links. "Lineman say..." doesn't mean *squat* when I've posted links to manufacturers specifications and utility company websites that all call this stuff insulated.
> 
> I don't know why linemen working in the industry are so badly informed, but apparently *they are*. Maybe they are deliberately giving out wrong information thinking that it will make people more careful, I don't know. But it's still wrong information.
> 
> Check the NEC, check any power company website, check the links I've posted. That stuff around the triplex is insulation, NOT weather coating. Uninsulated service drops are not legal anywhere in the U.S. or Canada. I don't know if some really old ones are grandfathered in a few places, but certainly not any new ones in the last few decades, at least.
> 
> 
> As for why I am so adamant, it's simple. Having wrong information about something as dangerous as electric power can't possibly be safer than having the RIGHT information.
> 
> Even in the context of Arboristsite, if you tell Joe Homeowner that he shouldn't mess with trees around his service drop because the lines aren't insulated, and he happens to know better, he's likely going to blow off everything else you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> Which might get him killed, because the truth is, you DO know what you're talking about with this stuff, but your one bad piece of information blew your credibility, and he didn't listen to the rest of your sound advice.
> 
> And I know you don't want that to happen.



Your a Pompous POS! I hope a linesman finds you and tells you exactly how he feels! Manufacturers HAVE to say that! You are talking about aerial CABLES, dumby. We are NOT! Find me the manufacturrs website oft "typical" aerial wire, and show me the specs on that.

Compare apples to apples. You love to over analyze things and get your .02 in s you can feel good about yourself.

Stick to the topic on hand. 

Aerial CABLES HAVE to be insulated AND have a weather protction coating on them, by NEC law.

Aerial WIRE only has to have a thin weather jacket on it, which witht he slightest bit of rubbing wears off and the Linesman are out putting it back out. Happens everyday with the utility I work with, and thats only 1 small town.


And again provide proof of use of those big money aerial cables down where you are or in FL, as Sandard installs.......you wont be able to because NO utility installs them as standard. Fujikara is a highly pecialized CABLE manufacturer.


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## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> What about 500kv
> it runs non grounded and arcs but I agree because people seem to think
> they're less deadly and that can be a fatal mistake.



We are talking about distribution in this thread not TRANSMISSION lines. If anyone is pulling hangers off tranni lines with poles they have a whole new set of problems.

When you work anything above 115KV you either wear an induction suit and become part of the phase, or you stand in a bucket or helicopter and bare hand the stuff, NO rubber wil protect you from this voltage.


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## BostonBull

Mark

We are arguing electrical THEORY here, whuch is bad. Its like arguing religion. Noone knows for sure but everyone may be right.

Noone knows EXACTLY how electricity works, thats why its called electrical THEORY.


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## 046

this thread is a good example of why information on AS is not reliable. 
It's hard to tell what's right from what will get you killed. 

no clue how drops are done where you're at. but house drops around here is exactly as boston bull described. depending upon age... wire covering may be completely intact or partially gone with bare copper showing. 

proper way to handle drops is to assume wire covering (if any) has no insulation value. or in other words stay away from lines period and call your power company for a free wire drop. 

back to the if you have to ask.... don't! 
play it safe and call the power company.


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## OTG BOSTON

clearance said:


> And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?





diltree said:


> Mark,
> 
> Still, There is no doubt in my mind that you have never slipped a 20' piece down and past the Hendrix, or jumped a head over the open three phase and into the road. You may have heard a transformer blow; but never have had one blow because of the piece you had just freshly cut. QUOTE]
> 
> Best posts on this thread, perfect examples of guys with experience versus a guy with a lot of time on his hands. IMHO it is not worth argueing about all this on arb101, anyone who could benefit would just be more confused. That is if they spent all the time it takes to read those long winded posts.......


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## diltree

046 said:


> this thread is a good example of why information on AS is not reliable.
> It's hard to tell what's right from what will get you killed. .




There is reliable information on this site. You have guys posting that are veteran CAs, MCAs, Board Certified master arborists, qualified line trimmers, People from families that have been in this business for generations, guys that have a wealth of knowledge and experience. 

You just have to weed out the guys that really don't have a clew, listen to the consensus of the professionals......


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## OTG BOSTON

diltree said:


> There is reliable information on this site. You have guys posting that are veteran CAs, MCAs, Board Certified master arborists, qualified line trimmers, People from families that have been in this business for generations, guys that have a wealth of knowledge and experience.
> 
> You just have to weed out the guys that really don't have a clew, listen to the consensus of the professionals......




well said, and more direct than my last post


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## BlueRidgeMark

BostonBull said:


> Y Manufacturers HAVE to say that!




Manufacturers have to tell the truth, and I suspect they know more about the products they put out than you do, or any other linesman.



BostonBull said:


> You are talking about aerial CABLES, dumby. We are NOT!



Service drops are what we've been talking about, and only service drops. Anybody who has a functional brain and is honest can look back through the thread and see that.



BostonBull said:


> Find me the manufacturrs website oft "typical" aerial wire, and show me the specs on that.



I already have, BB. I've given all the links anybody could ever want, to see what the truth is. Residential or commercial, service drops are insulated. Period. That's what the NEC requires (though it's not "law"), that's what local building codes require, that's what's out there. It's not a weather coating, it's insulation.

If you don't want to face it, that's your problem. 

If someone wants to teach people to "treat every line as if it is uninsulated" for safety reasons, I have no argument with that.

But calling insulation "weather coating" or otherwise pretending that reality is other than what it is will not keep anybody safe.


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## BlueRidgeMark

046 said:


> no clue how drops are done where you're at. but house drops around here is exactly as boston bull described. depending upon age... wire covering may be completely intact or partially gone with bare copper showing.




No argument there. The argument is about whether service drops are insulated, not about whether that insulation might be compromised. BB says they are not insulated. All the sources I've linked say they are. Anyone who has an ounce of common sense should be able to tell that manufacturer's websites and utility company websites are a more reliable source of informatioin than some anonymous poster on some forum.




046 said:


> back to the if you have to ask.... don't!
> play it safe and call the power company.



Exactly what I've said all along.


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## BlueRidgeMark

OTG BOSTON said:


> That is if they spent all the time it takes to read those long winded posts.......




Heaven forbid they should actually READ what is said and follow the links to verify things!

No, can't have THAT! Somebody might find out that some of the "experienced" people here are operating with wrong information!


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## Rftreeman

diltree said:


> ........like I said, in the field: insulation refers to protection from electricity.





diltree said:


> Did you read this entire thread? I hope you didn't, because if you did this post is insane.....as a qualified line trimmer you should consider no wires "insulated" under no circumstances...ever!


I don't, everything is "HOT" to me, maybe I misunderstood what you meant by the wording you used in that first quote "insulation refers to protection from electricity" and I have read pretty much all of this thread with people bickering back and forth about "*INSULATION* when that really has nothing too do with the subject of this thread which is "pole saws for use around wires" not "what does insulated mean" also, you will not find one post from me saying anything about insulated wired being safe to touch but you can find several post of me trying too make this point *insulated or not, those wires can and will kill you*

now, I'm done with this thread as it is no more than just a flame war.


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## diltree

The booms on my aerial lifts are considered insulated, the liner of my bucket is insulated, my pole saws are insulated. In our field we consider all these things insulated because they are not conductive up to a certain voltage. Although teiplex wires have an insulated coat on the positive they are not "insulated". Thats not mis-information mark, thats a fact. You are not using the word insulated as its meant to be used in the field of line clearance or maintenance for that matter.

You argue a mute point that has nothing to do with Line Clearance Tree Trimming


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## OTG BOSTON

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Heaven forbid they should actually READ what is said and follow the links to verify things!
> 
> No, can't have THAT! Somebody might find out that some of the "experienced" people here are operating with wrong information!



I guess I'll turn in my Cert. Arborist tag, my ehap book and shut dow the multimillion $$ operation I am running.......my experience is virtually useless when put up against a keyboard hero like yourself.


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## 046

never said there was not good information on AS. as there's a ton of experience on the site. 

what makes it unreliable is the garbage posts that go along with the good posts.

I'm talking about what happens when a total newbie logs on to AS... reads something, say without reading the entire thread. gets the wrong idea and the wrong info. someone could get killed!

Newbies may not be able to tell who's who? 

general rule of thumb is: 

pole to pole is high KV transmission lines. stay the hell away from those. 

pole to house is either 220 single phase or 220 three phase. these are less dangerous, but can still kill. 

pole to business can carry 220 single phase, 220 three phase or higher voltage. can be extremely dangerous. 

back to the if you have to ask... don't! best to call the power company. 

that said... for emergencies, I've got a Jamison core filled insulated pole and insulated lineman gloves. 

insulated poles if not taken care of can lose protection. they need to be tested regularly. that's why I carry a pair of insulated lineman gloves. always carried in a protective pouch and know history of what's been done with my gloves. 



diltree said:


> There is reliable information on this site. You have guys posting that are veteran CAs, MCAs, Board Certified master arborists, qualified line trimmers, People from families that have been in this business for generations, guys that have a wealth of knowledge and experience.
> 
> You just have to weed out the guys that really don't have a clew, listen to the consensus of the professionals......


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## clearance

A while back I read this on another website "Before the internet the village idiot had to stay in his village" I have pretty well had enough of this neverending stupid arguement, bottom line, those of us who know, will still be cutting down trees, trimming trees, beside powerlines. 'Cause we are trained, we are qualified and we are the men, thank you.


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## DonnyO

clearance said:


> A while back I read this on another website "Before the internet the village idiot had to stay in his village" I have pretty well had enough of this neverending stupid arguement, bottom line, those of us who know, will still be cutting down trees, trimming trees, beside powerlines. 'Cause we are trained, we are qualified and we are the men, thank you.



    thank you!!!!!!!!!!!


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## talcott

*Grounded Primary Power Lines*

how do

when working around primary voltage power lines, it is better to phone the power company and talk to them about what you are doing. the power company may come out and de-energize the lines and have a visible open on them and ground them out useing ground chains which are a special jumper with special clamps on them.

are you safe to come in physical contact with the lines at that time?

if the lines that are grounded out would accidently become energized and you are in contact with the lines, there is a really good chance that you are gonna get it.

the ground chains on the lines help operate an oil filled breaker or a fused cutout or other protective devicess on that line to open up the line.

the whole idea is safety...a lineman is mostly generally more knoweledgeable about power lines.

as a lineman and in doing line clearance...most of my cuttin has been out of a bucket truck...i sure wish that some of you guys lived closer to me because i have little experience in felling trees.

i try to do all of my work in the safest way possible.

bestest ree guards

talcott


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