# Self-loader, knuckleboom, whatever the heck they are called on trailer?



## KiwiBro (May 22, 2015)

Hi All,

Have been looking into log trailers to tow behind a tractor. With knuckleboom and grapple to self-load the logs. But the ones I see look flimsy. They don't have much lift capacity.

The truck self-loaders look much stronger.

Essentially, I have some ideas but not the experience or wisdom to know if they should be dropped in favour of plan B. What I'm thinking of is:

braked tandem axle trailer
axles slide on a central, backbone/spine beam so can take some weight off tractor rear end if need be and generally have more control over the weight distributions. Looking like the tractor will only safely handle about 5-6000Lbs of drawbar weight. Maybe more but I need to have it confirmed and preferably test it out myself.

a truck self-loader mounted to the trailer with self-contained, tractor PTO powered hydraulics if need be (I'm thinking the 10 gpm tractor implement hydraulic flow rate will not be enough?)
This will be used not just for loading logs at a landing and forwarding but to load log trucks from a staging area if the trucks themselves are not self-loaders. I can see this being a painfully slow process if the log loader on the trailer isn't grunty enough, and most of the tractor log trailers I've seen so far look sub-par at beast for such loading tasks.

Is it a stupid idea? Is there a better way? Have you any links to where I could learn more about what others have done please? I have searched on AS but couldn't really find much - which makes me think maybe this is a bad idea?

Thanks for any help on this.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 22, 2015)

i agree those units look like toys to me. well i tend to think big so here is my take. use a semi trailer tandem and build the body beefy, like with 6x9 tube for frame rails and 5x5 bunks and standards. use the slider from the semi trailer.
the loader is a good idea but pricey. maybe retrofit a dry wall loader. still gonna need a grapple tho. what i am thinking of would prolly need a 90 hp or better tractor but it would last forever. i saw some large pto pumps at surplus center .com


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## northmanlogging (May 23, 2015)

I've seen some that aren't hopelessly wimpy, but I couldn't tell ya where... Theres one sorta locally here on a goose neck frame with a decent loader on it, wanna say its a blue ox?

Could be that getting a good used dedicated forwarder would be a solid plan for ya, the loaders on them are built for the task.


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## KiwiBro (May 23, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i agree those units look like toys to me. well i tend to think big so here is my take. use a semi trailer tandem and build the body beefy, like with 6x9 tube for frame rails and 5x5 bunks and standards. use the slider from the semi trailer.
> the loader is a good idea but pricey. maybe retrofit a dry wall loader. still gonna need a grapple tho. what i am thinking of would prolly need a 90 hp or better tractor but it would last forever. i saw some large pto pumps at surplus center .com



Thanks for this.

A while back, when I had even less $ than I do now, a stepped equipment trailer with tandem rear and single front (under turntable- not sure of correct name for it) axles went for $1200. Why are those deals never around when you have the money for 'em? Could have hacked that up and had some steel left over for other projects.

I'm not sure what you mean by drw wall loader sorry. Googling brings up sheetrock (drywall) panel lifters, which would be a fun day out on a log trailer but not very productive.

I guess we are talking prentice, GMC, etc self-loaders up in your neck of the woods. They seem to be the sort I am thinking could work. Would at least be solid enough, but hopefully without completely maxing out the tractors rear end. These self loaders seem to need about 40 gpm, and surpluscenter has such PTO pumps, thanks.

Yes, tractor will be somewhere between 70-100HP because that's all I can afford and I am hoping to keep the size down to stay manoeuvrable as I get in some tight places at times.

There's a few truck log trailers for sale here. Some are 4-axle such that the two front axles are a bit like a set of dollies with a drawbar and they have a turntable/race sort of connection for the rest of the trailer. I'm wondering if I could just use these front axles+drawbar, putting a frame on the turntable/race, with just a pair of bolsters/bunks on the frame, and then the load is going to be centered over the axles, and control how far the frame can pivot on the race with a pair of rams I control from the tractor seat. This could be useful for getting around farm gates and tight corners. Would need to make the drawbar longer to leave room for the loader though. Also, these are road-going trailers and the center of gravity is quite high and possibly tippy off-road? I'd hat to drive over a sloped trail and feel it go - it'll for sure take the tractor with it. There's only ever be about 4t payload on it though, although I would need to experiment with what is safe before the tail starts to wag the dog.


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## KiwiBro (May 23, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> I've seen some that aren't hopelessly wimpy, but I couldn't tell ya where... Theres one sorta locally here on a goose neck frame with a decent loader on it, wanna say its a blue ox?
> 
> Could be that getting a good used dedicated forwarder would be a solid plan for ya, the loaders on them are built for the task.


Thanks. Will keep looking around for such trailers but so far, nothing much local. If I want to shell out $8k, I could have myself a burnt out timberjack trailer. Um, I think I'll pass on that.

The dilemma with a forwarder, or anything I can't tow with my tractor on road under my standard drivers licence, is I'm targeting small woodlots on farms. Would rather not pay for transporters every time I need to shift it, which would be often. Would rather not have the $ tied up in a road trailer for it either. Unless it just works out the most sensible option - which is probably what you're telling me and I'm just not hearing it yet ;-).


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## hseII (May 23, 2015)




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## treeslayer2003 (May 23, 2015)

yes the dry wall loader is really a prentice with out a grapple. over here they seem to sell for almost junk price where as a prentice log loader is seemingly gold. same machine minus the grapple.
my thoughts are very likely much to heavy for what you want.........just the way i think lol. could be down sized to some thing in between


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## northmanlogging (May 23, 2015)

KiwiBro said:


> Thanks. Will keep looking around for such trailers but so far, nothing much local. If I want to shell out $8k, I could have myself a burnt out timberjack trailer. Um, I think I'll pass on that.
> 
> The dilemma with a forwarder, or anything I can't tow with my tractor on road under my standard drivers licence, is I'm targeting small woodlots on farms. Would rather not pay for transporters every time I need to shift it, which would be often. Would rather not have the $ tied up in a road trailer for it either. Unless it just works out the most sensible option - which is probably what you're telling me and I'm just not hearing it yet ;-).



Forwarders are rubber tired... like a skidder they are usually articulated, but have bunks and a loader built in. Go anywhere load anything


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## Greenthorn (May 23, 2015)

This page should give ya some ideas, this is kinda what we wanted years ago.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/log-trailer-with-crane-trailer-axles_320773874.html


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## KiwiBro (May 23, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> yes the dry wall loader is really a prentice with out a grapple. over here they seem to sell for almost junk price where as a prentice log loader is seemingly gold. same machine minus the grapple.
> my thoughts are very likely much to heavy for what you want.........just the way i think lol. could be down sized to some thing in between


Thanks. Looked at Prentice telesticks just now. We have something similar down here I hadn't thought about. Will check to see what they go for and if it stacks up once adding in the cost of the grapple+rotator.



northmanlogging said:


> Forwarders are rubber tired... like a skidder they are usually articulated, but have bunks and a loader built in. Go anywhere load anything


 Thanks. Seen quite a few videos and they sure can get into and out of some crazy places. But I haven't yet got my head around how to cheaply move them from job to job.



Greenthorn said:


> This page should give ya some ideas, this is kinda what we wanted years ago.
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/log-trailer-with-crane-trailer-axles_320773874.html



Thanks. That's a beefier loader than I am used to seeing on them. That company claims to make for quite a few brands. Does anyone know of any available in their neck of the woods like this? I'm leery about spending that sort of money (looks like about US$20k x the minimum order of 2 = $40k) on unknown quality. Don't want to be trying to repair something a few months after buying it nor finding there's something oddball that nobody has parts for or will need a heap more money thrown at it to do it the way our market is used to seeing/working on.


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## 1270d (May 23, 2015)

How far do you move between jobs? We have run forwarder on the road 25 plus miles between jobs. They run 10 mph or so.


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## northmanlogging (May 23, 2015)

my record with the skidder is about 20 so ya beat me there!

But I did go through a school zone at about 30mph... I'd slowed down a little...


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## KiwiBro (May 23, 2015)

1270d said:


> How far do you move between jobs? We have run forwarder on the road 25 plus miles between jobs. They run 10 mph or so.


Could be just a few miles down a road the public hardly ever travel on, so unlikely to ever be seen by officialdom, or could be 20miles on our main state highway. I've only done some preliminary digging into the rules for log forwarders on public roads and can't find much about what is or isn't allowed and what class licence (or what endorsements) is needed. I know that with a tractor and trailer, provided not too heavy, I'm good with my current licence. But with a forwarder, I dunno.


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## northmanlogging (May 23, 2015)

no lawyer...

here a wheeled tractor is a wheeled tractor, just need an orange triangle, or a chase vehicle, as long as your under 8'6" wide (not that farmers care...) and stick to side roads and 2 lane highways, driving a skidder on the freeway (motorway?) would probably get a guy shot...


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## KiwiBro (May 24, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> no lawyer...
> 
> here a wheeled tractor is a wheeled tractor, just need an orange triangle, or a chase vehicle, as long as your under 8'6" wide (not that farmers care...) and stick to side roads and 2 lane highways, driving a skidder on the freeway (motorway?) would probably get a guy shot...


In many of the areas it would need to go, there are side roads (many just gravel) and then the main state highway (100 kph speed limit). Tractor will do 35 kph with a tail wind, downhill, on a promise, and it's darn scary on the open road where the speed limit is 100 kph but single lane and many of the corners are still 70-90 kph with no shoulders. I've seen too many insane drivers to not be scared shitless when on the state highway in a tractor. I could light it up like a Christmas tree and some cowboy at the end of an illegal 14hr driving stint, with 20+ tons under his control doing 90-100 kph comes around the corner right behind me and it's game over for someone.

If I could afford it, I'd put the tractor on a transporter too, or hire pilot vehicles, but it just starts getting way too expensive when may do two moves a month, occasionally more.

*edit* I'll have to read up on pilot vehicles and what it takes to become one.


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## northmanlogging (May 24, 2015)

Yeah I try to keep my drives to the 35 mph side roads, sometimes I have to unload on a highway and drive a short distance, usually on a shoulder though.

My chase vehicle is just the crummy with the flashers on, petrified wifey driving it... sometimes con a neighbor into it...


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## 1270d (May 24, 2015)

It is a rare occasion that we road the machines anywhere, takes too much time. But sometimes it works out to be the best way.


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## gomoto69 (May 26, 2015)

What exactly is it you need to accomplish? Are you just trying to get your wood from the bush to a landing? And how far on average would that be? If it's not too far, you might be farther ahead using a wheeled arch of some type and a winch to skid as many logs as your tractor will handle to the landing, then buck to length and hire self loading trucks only to haul. Loading a fowarder then unloading, then loading on a truck may not be the most efficient method, but i may not be understanding your situation either!


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## KiwiBro (May 26, 2015)

Forwarding for often a mile or three, over steep to mediocre terrain on trails that would be tight and sketchy on a quad, to truck-accessible areas. Just think of that ugly patch way out the back in a forgotten wilderness the farmer never gave a second thought to. The sorts of jobs most would struggle to find a polite way of saying they can't do without questioning why the farmer bothered to waste their time calling them out to view.

That's my niche. LOL. My comparative advantage is being more insane and more willing to suffer than the next guy. I've learned that if self-employed, it's legal to pay yourself far less than the minimum wage.


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## gomoto69 (May 26, 2015)

Ok, then your idea makes perfect sense. Here in bc, alot of the log hauling has gone to short logs as opposed to the regular 51'6" saw log. Many combinations are used, super b, even king b now (pup is also tridem, total of 9 axles with a tridrive tractor, with gross weights approaching 80,000kg), as well as tri and quad wagons behind tridrives. The quad wagon trailer i think is what you were describing, and would probably work well behind your tractor, although the front 2 axles and reach pivot in relation to the trailer frame, so no room for a picker. Is there any way you can mount a front end loader on your tractor? There's no weight on the reach of the wagon, quite easy to unhook to load it, simple pintle hitch. I hauled contaminated dirt all winter in northern alberta with a tri-quad gravel truck, little tricky backing up but not too bad!


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## KiwiBro (May 26, 2015)

Tractor will have FEL and I have the forks +log grab already from my old tractor. The idea of the loader on the trailer was because some of the harvesting is on small trails on the sides of steep hills. Sometimes there's not enough room to land logs let alone process them. It's quite good to be able to reach over the sides a little and clear the chute (Which is half the reason I'm after a knuckleboom that's robust). Tractor FEL's are sometimes not much fun with logs when room is tight. Secondly, loading trucks with a tractor wouldn't be as much fun or as productive as with the knuckleboom.

I have in the past use a tilt ag trailer that I fixed log bunks to and loaded with the tractor FEL. It was fast unloading at the log staging area, if the area is big or being cleared often enough. Just back up, dump the lot, and be gone. Hmmm, a tilt-bed log trailer with solid loader could be an interesting combo. It might on occasion save having to unload the trailer with the loader.

I agree, there's probably not enough room to get the loader and bunks on that aforementioned arrangement and still keep the load balanced. It's quite a juggling act at times, getting around tight corners and through farm gates themselves on tight corners. Two of the more common log lengths if milling myself will be 2m and 5m (about 6 1/2' and 16'). There will be times it won't be possible to get the 5m logs out because the value isn't enough to justify pulling gate posts or cutting wider corners. Unless the gates are close to the mill and I can drop logs one side and ferry into mill with FEL - lifting the log over the posts as travel through the gates.

I know this all sounds mickey-mouse but farm woodlots the big boys are too smart to touch are what I'm targeting and farmers either haven't thought about how they will get logs out, or they have and decided to find a mug who will do it instead. It's also been by experience that occasionally the first such few small, ugly jobs on such farms are a test. Pass that with a can-do attitude and you are told about the really good patch they have been keeping silent about.


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## gomoto69 (May 26, 2015)

Yes, it's good to pick a niche that other's don't want. I read a story of how old time drag racer connie kalitta got his start in the air freight business by flying water buffalo out of africa and similar jobs that no one else would touch, now i believe he specializes in flying high end race horses (among other things) around the world, a successful multi million dollar operation!
The boom type loader does sound like your best option, and the wagon trailers do have a good turning radius, most log trailers also have stakes that can be tripped, allowing the logs to simply roll off the side for quick unloading, as ling as stability wouldn't be an issue with them not being attached to a truck, but should be fine. Good luck on finding a setup that suits your needs! I hope it works out for you


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## KiwiBro (May 27, 2015)

Thanks. There sure are any number of ways to lose a ton of money doing this work, so I have plenty of research to do and things to learn before spending $. I just found a Polish(?) business on the net that does what I was thinking about recently - their trailer can change from regular forestry trailer to one with a regular bed that tilts/dumps. Quite versatile.

Then I have found online KTS log trailers and winches which look good. And I also like the Kesla loaders from Finland. But this sort of gear is big money.

Seems to be many of these sorts of options in Europe.


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## dhskier2 (May 29, 2015)

Not sure if Craig is still a distributor for Nokka products, but here's something they put together a few years ago-





From their webpage: "Nokka loader mounted on the back of a trailer. We prefer to mount the loader at this station as it is farther from the truck and closer to the work. It will more than double your reach mounted in this position, and the tow vehicle is less likely to be damaged if the operator makes an error or a hydraulic line breaks. This unit is totally self contained and the tow vehicle can be used elsewhere and the loader can still sort and load logs for this operators sawmill. Very handy and this unit is in daily operation. We tried other brands but have found the Nokka to be very durable, and it has become our choice."
Contact info: http://ckyber.com/contactus.html
PM me if you'd like a phone number for him


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## KiwiBro (May 29, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> Not sure if Craig is still a distributor for Nokka products, but here's something they put together a few years ago-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for this info. I'll take a look over the Nokka site also.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 2, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Yes, it's good to pick a niche that other's don't want. I read a story of how old time drag racer connie kalitta got his start in the air freight business by flying water buffalo out of africa and similar jobs that no one else would touch, now i believe he specializes in flying high end race horses (among other things) around the world, a successful multi million dollar operation!
> The boom type loader does sound like your best option, and the wagon trailers do have a good turning radius, most log trailers also have stakes that can be tripped, allowing the logs to simply roll off the side for quick unloading, as ling as stability wouldn't be an issue with them not being attached to a truck, but should be fine. Good luck on finding a setup that suits your needs! I hope it works out for you


trip stakes have just about been outlawed on this side. and with good reason.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 2, 2015)

The nicest log loader on a truck that I've seen is a Serco 8000 with telescoping boom.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 2, 2015)

Just saw some Sitka Spruce unloaded with trip stakes on Saturday. Now I have to peel them all.


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## KiwiBro (Jun 3, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> The nicest log loader on a truck that I've seen is a Serco 8000 with telescoping boom.


Thanks. What about them makes them better than others? None of this gear is cheap, not even second hand, darn it. This forwarding trailer with crane could end up costing more than the tractor pulling it.


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## 1270d (Jun 3, 2015)

Serco is a very nice loader, just well built, good quality. Rotobec and hood also make very good loaders of this type. They are usually truck mounted and may be too heavy for a small forwarding trailer


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## KiwiBro (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks. Certainly a trade-off between size, wallet, strength.

I like how those truck mounted ones are mounted up quite high. Would be a good thing when loading out trucks, but might be a bad thing if it's higher than the tractor rops and catching on things and if it doesn't have much reach if I want to use it to reach over the side a little and help clear the chute on the tight jobs where don't have much room to move.

Here's about what I think will be at or maybe just over the upper limit of what the tractor I'm lining up will handle:



It strikes me that unless I have a bloody crazy amount of $ to blow on big gear, there's not much in between solid gear and the flimsy crap that won't even last even if babied. 

The crane options seem to be the main disappointment. Just doesn't seem to be many around here. There's quite a few in Europe.


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