# Felling direction



## jdc123

I have seen pictures of fallers using two long boards nailed together at an angle to find the direction when felling a large tree. Can someone tell me more about this? Is that what it is used for? Thanks in advance.


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## 2dogs

Basically the gunning sticks you have seen (can be made of conduit) seat into the corners of the face and the legs being the same length will point to the lay. The sticks are lifted up and down while the gunner stands inside and sights over the point (the apex of the triangle). The same thing can be done with a Spencer tape. It the face is not square and clean the gunning sticks mean nothing.


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## 2dogs

Big trees need big time accuracy.


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## jdc123

Thanks 2dogs


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## RandyMac

using the sticks


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## 2dogs

jdc123 said:


> Thanks 2dogs


 
You're welcome.

Back around 1970 I helped out an old time faller who almost always used gunning sticks. He was an old growth redwood faller who felled very valuable timber in steep terrain. He was a perfectionist and just expected to use sticks when they were available. He did not suffer fools either. I was quiet enough to not look like a fool though in reality I was dumb as a stump. I knew alot about deer and duck hunting and trout fishing and quite a bit about firefighting equipment but I knew nothing about timber falling. It was all new and exicting to me. The one thing that stuck with me was the use of gunning sticks.


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## 2dogs

Randy I love that pic. If you ever want to print up some 8X10s I would like to buy a couple.


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## RandyMac

ARRRR!!!!

When I print some, I'll let you know and just send one to you.

2dogs is one of a dozen or less men on this site who have put steel to Old Growth Redwood, trust what he says.


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## jdc123

great pic RandyMac, thanks


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## 2dogs

Thanks Randy but I don't have near the big tree experience you or a bunch of guys in the F&L have. But I have been lucky enough to fall some OG and still get a few every year.


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## RandyMac

The fact that you still make stumps out of them, puts you ahead of me.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC

[video=youtube;jDhLp1BtiGw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDhLp1BtiGw[/video]


[video=youtube;7B4PAvQ3-Rs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B4PAvQ3-Rs[/video]


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## Dalmatian90

Hillbilly -- that 2nd video was really neat to watch a craftsman at work -- the attention the sawyer was giving the to cuts. Good job by him and the person who took / edited the video. 

(I know from experience some of the best photos and video require someone who knows what to look for so they know where to be when to get the good shots!)


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## nick 55

I know I'm new here to AS, but I would love a copy(even if it's digital) of that pic also. That is some serious know how represented there. 

Nick


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## RandyMac

nick 55 said:


> I know I'm new here to AS, but I would love a copy(even if it's digital) of that pic also. That is some serious know how represented there.
> 
> Nick


 
Right click, save as.

I often "pulled" to the left, the Master took a touch off the right side stick, every one went right down the middle. He had me make my own set, I used vertical grained, fairly dense OG Doug Fir, treated with gunstock oil.


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## derwoodii

Has any one explained the use of the felling lines or saw gunner sights found upon your pro saws


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## FallerClimber

*Falling sights*

Videos: Nice job on the cuts. Don't know how the redneck country whatever got these, they are way above his level. Anyway to answer the question of the gunning sights: learn how to use them because they are how a guy falls a tree accurately. Lets just talk about a tree that your bar reaches across and is straight up and down. That sight will put that tree right where your saw is gunned (assuming the cuts are clean). Now you need to get right down on it like it is the sight on a rifle. No glancing down on it as you stand above it. I mean on it like a gun sight (that is why it is called a gunning sight). When you go on your back cut and have your saw flipped, use the gunning sight again to get your holding wood even. This is for a tree that is straight up and down where you don't have to correct for lean or branch weight or other factors. I can discuss oversize trees or ones with lean/side weight if you want. Just trying to hit the basics.


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## RandyMac

Hey FC, whereabouts in the Sierras are you? I used to cut in the Yuba Pass area.


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## FallerClimber

yosemite


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC

Gunning sites work sometime and sometimes not. Takes a few bad trees to make one learn there other ways to gun a tree. I rarely need them,got taught to use what is between my ears.


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## RandyMac

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Gunning sites work sometime and sometimes not. Takes a few bad trees to make one learn there other ways to gun a tree. I rarely need them,got taught to use what is between my ears.


 
Why don't you go back to giving out your worthless advice in the chainsaw forum, where the noobs haven't figured you out for the clueless ass you really are.


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## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Why don't you go back to giving out your worthless advice in the chainsaw forum, where the noobs haven't figured you out for the clueless ass you really are.


 
Yup.


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## RandyMac

Mornin' Boss!


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## Gologit

Mornin'. Where's the coffee?


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC

I know darn well how fell timber. Do not need a college degree to know how to lay timber down. It is simple once the fundamentals are learn.


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## Gologit

"Fell" this. Now be quiet...the grown-ups are talking.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC

Look who is talking the whiny kids are crying over dumb things not me. Felling timber is a art not a science and we all do it differently.


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## RandyMac

Whatcha want, got Fo'gers inna can.


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## RandyMac

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Look who is talking the whiny kids are crying over dumb things not me. Felling timber is a art not a science and we all do it differently.


 
A bit peevish this morning, you ok? Maybe you better duck into the 7-11 and get yourself another pink slushy.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC

I aint peevish just my normal evening mood,was fine till some bark bug came after me. Need to sleep so I can cut wood tomorrow.


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## RandyMac

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> I aint peevish just my normal evening mood,was fine till some bark bug came after me. Need to sleep so I can cut wood tomorrow.


 
Well, now you know where the bark bugs hang out and can avoid the area.


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## Guido Salvage

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Gunning sites work sometime and sometimes not. Takes a few bad trees to make one learn there other ways to gun a tree. I rarely need them,got taught to use what is between my ears.



Now that is a scary thought.....



RandyMac said:


> Why don't you go back to giving out your worthless advice in the chainsaw forum, where the noobs haven't figured you out for the clueless ass you really are.



Don't pawn him off on us! Just last night he was telling people to wash their crankcases with gas and then neutralize with water. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/183910-2.htm#post3237757



HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> I know darn well how fell timber. Do not need a college degree to know how to lay timber down. It is simple once the fundamentals are learn.



Your videos certainly capture a high level of expertise.



HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Look who is talking the whiny kids are crying over dumb things not me. Felling timber is a art not a science and we all do it differently.



And many actually do it correctly. Perhaps you could learn something from them.



HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> I aint peevish just my normal evening mood,was fine till some bark bug came after me. Need to sleep so I can cut wood tomorrow.



Video please, we will all need a good laugh.


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## 2dogs

FallerClimber said:


> yosemite


 
Where abouts in Yosemite. I have a friend (haven't spoke to him in a couple years) who works there.


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## SummerfieldTreeandLand

I live around yosemite


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## 2dogs

This is a five year old thread.


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## SummerfieldTreeandLand

2dogs said:


> This is a five year old thread.


doesn't take away from what I wrote


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## madhatte

This is a 5-yr-old thread abandoned because it was derailed by the infamous HBRN. That does take away from what you wrote.


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## HuskStihl

madhatte said:


> This is a 5-yr-old thread abandoned because it was derailed by the infamous HBRN. That does take away from what you wrote.


Still, nice to see old Randy talking shop.


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## SummerfieldTreeandLand

madhatte said:


> This is a 5-yr-old thread abandoned because it was derailed by the infamous HBRN. That does take away from what you wrote.


 Actually, context given; It takes away from your perspective because of your experiences, and takes no value from what was written. I do live around Yosemite, all things set aside, it remains as it was stated. The fact that it seems to alter your perception reflects more on you than what was said. Simple thing really, and not a big deal at all- but in terms of linear conversation... I presented something relevant to an ongoing conversation that was then responded to by something completely irrelevant to anything other than the posters perspective for example....

Had two friends been discussing carrots 5 years ago on a public forum.... and a third party interjected 5 years later that they had eaten carrots the same way.... and again another third party said "that was 5 years ago" - No value had been detracted from the actual statements, only a non linear and non relevant comment was made on the time frame of the conversations.

Point in fact- 5 years ago I used the gunner sites on my saws only a smidgen more than I do now, which is rarely. Reading the over all circumstances of weight distribution, wood condition and type, wind/weather aspects, falling area, and available options in terms of types of cuts used and control methods used (snatch blocks, wedges etc.) are all variables that I consider before I make a cut, and the experience of using chainsaws has helped me determine the viability of my cuts much more than a guiding line on a saw. All of this being said it is still a useful tool that I am grateful to have available to use.


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## HuskStihl

SummerfieldTreeandLand said:


> Actually, context given; It takes away from your perspective because of your experiences, and takes no value from what was written. I do live around Yosemite, all things set aside, it remains as it was stated. The fact that it seems to alter your perception reflects more on you than what was said. Simple thing really, and not a big deal at all- but in terms of linear conversation... I presented something relevant to an ongoing conversation that was then responded to by something completely irrelevant to anything other than the posters perspective for example....
> 
> Had two friends been discussing carrots 5 years ago on a public forum.... and a third party interjected 5 years later that they had eaten carrots the same way.... and again another third party said "that was 5 years ago" - No value had been detracted from the actual statements, only a non linear and non relevant comment was made on the time frame of the conversations.
> 
> Point in fact- 5 years ago I used the gunner sites on my saws only a smidgen more than I do now, which is rarely. Reading the over all circumstances of weight distribution, wood condition and type, wind/weather aspects, falling area, and available options in terms of types of cuts used and control methods used (snatch blocks, wedges etc.) are all variables that I consider before I make a cut, and the experience of using chainsaws has helped me determine the viability of my cuts much more than a guiding line on a saw. All of this being said it is still a useful tool that I am grateful to have available to use.


U'r poast was too long for me to read, but I think he meant that since the guys who were familiar with Yosemite haven't been around for years, that few would be interested in "I live around Yosemite". Do you have a link to the carrot forum? I have little interest in Yosemite, but I do love carrots!


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## madhatte

I am also fond of the occasional carrot.


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## northmanlogging

pickled carrots are pretty good too


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## slowp

I have finally improved my rock pile enough so carrots can get some growth in. I have been thinning from below in the carrot patch.


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## madhatte

Only from below? Perhaps a combination thin is worth investigating.


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## northmanlogging

Perhaps a feller muncher is in order or maybe some fellers munching?


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## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> Perhaps a feller muncher is in order or maybe some fellers munching?



I did find a little bit of evidence of carrot trespass going on. More thinning to be done today. Got a block of kale to work on next.


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## slowp

madhatte said:


> Only from below? Perhaps a combination thin is worth investigating.



It's kind of a designation by diameter operation. I'm definitely creaming the crop except not creaming. Creamed carrots make me gag.


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## northmanlogging

all creamed vegetables is nasty...

creamed corn is good fer making corn bread though.

Just of of curiosity or you marking each carrot for thinning or are you just relying on the contractor to decide whats best. Does the paint effect flavor if so good or bad? (I kinda actually want to know that one)

Also are the yarding corridors flagged, what about tail holds, or is this a ground based operation and the skid trails are clearly marked... any wet lands what need to be avoided...

and lastly are you desturbing any endangered critters mating season, if so be sure to only operate machinery between the hours of 7am and 8:30am mon through tuesday between july 4th and august 16th.


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## GilksTreeFelling

i gotta ask, what size bar would i need on my 372 if i want to get into thinning carrots and the like, would my 28" be good or should i go with somthing longer for more reach ? do you guys run square or round ground on your carrot thinning ?


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## northmanlogging

372 isn't enough saw, yer gonna need a 3120 or ms880 with at least a 42" bar full comp square grind. And carve off the clutch cover to make chain swapping and fanger cutting easier.


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## northmanlogging

wait no... yer going to have to get yerself one of them ole two man titans or macs, carrot thinning is for sure a 2 feller job


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## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> all creamed vegetables is nasty...
> 
> creamed corn is good fer making corn bread though.
> 
> Just of of curiosity or you marking each carrot for thinning or are you just relying on the contractor to decide whats best. Does the paint effect flavor if so good or bad? (I kinda actually want to know that one)
> 
> Also are the yarding corridors flagged, what about tail holds, or is this a ground based operation and the skid trails are clearly marked... any wet lands what need to be avoided...
> 
> and lastly are you desturbing any endangered critters mating season, if so be sure to only operate machinery between the hours of 7am and 8:30am mon through tuesday between july 4th and august 16th.



This is not Marbled Murrelet habitat but I do see that the slugs are mating so delay in starting up equipment and shut down early. My thinning prescription is "designated by diameter of carrot". I choose the biggest diameter for a leave carrot and take other carrots within a determined distance from the leave carrot. Doesn't matter if the leave carrot is a forked carrot, if it is the biggest, it stays. That way I get a diverse "stand" of carrots. I cleared out the landing yesterday and will enhance the wetlands today. Since it is a working carrot area, the skid trails were laid out before the carrots were planted. 

Maybe I'll go mechanized today.


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## madhatte

We prefer Variable Density Thinning hereabouts. Fastest way to fake stand structure.


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## northmanlogging

on thinning of the kale im suggesting a full clearcut and slash and burn replant with taters or radishes


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## 1270d

Is your ground too steep to run a buncher in the kale block?


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## SliverPicker

Due to the delicate nature of carrot patch soil a felling crew and whirly bird is the only responsible way to go. No tracks or tires.


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## Kyler Monares

It appears this guy stuck the rear handle in the face notch and looked down the bar to aim the tree?

What's with guys using tiny bars on big saws to fell trees? YouTube is full of MS661's with 20" bars felling 40" trees. Yeah with practice it can be done correctly but doesn't a longer bar make things easier?
I'm far from being a professional and I get nervous every time I fall a tree with a bar shorter than the tree diameter. 
Must be a European thing. They also like to abuse their saws by throwing them around and hard loading them all the time on YouTube also. I usually move on to the next video if the guy spends most of his time time bogging down and stopping the chain.


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## bitzer

Just how many times could he walk around that thing? That was ugly.


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## Gypo Logger

bitzer said:


> Just how many times could he walk around that thing? That was ugly.


Lol, Lumberjack Dude took 12 minutes to dump a 12' stub and must have circled it a dozen times. Was that Sawtroll? Lol
Just another tree ape trying to make a simple job look difficult. Makes more money that way. Lol


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## northmanlogging

faced and crippled and the dumb ass walks infront of it like 4 times. we'll hear about him soon enough.

the real frightening thing is he's passin hisself off as a pro


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## bitzer

northmanlogging said:


> faced and crippled and the dumb ass walks infront of it like 4 times. we'll hear about him soon enough.
> 
> the real frightening thing is he's passin hisself off as a pro


He's got the outfit for it.


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## rwoods

Classic case of incompatibility. Costume and saw don't match. He must have dressed in the dark. Or grabbed the wrong saw. Ron


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## GilksTreeFelling

jees, im no where near a "pro" but even i have enough smarts to not get in front of the tree once the back cut is started.


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## Bwildered

I wouldn't get that worked up over it, it was just the last few standing metres of the tree left standing after being lopped down to size, his mates pulled it over with a rope to finish it off, he was very smartly dressed I must say!
Badinski


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## Woos31

northmanlogging said:


> on thinning of the kale im suggesting a full clearcut and slash and burn replant with taters or radishes


Corn..........sew in the old growth corn kernel


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## Woos31

Kyler Monares said:


> It appears this guy stuck the rear handle in the face notch and looked down the bar to aim the tree?
> 
> What's with guys using tiny bars on big saws to fell trees? YouTube is full of MS661's with 20" bars felling 40" trees. Yeah with practice it can be done correctly but doesn't a longer bar make things easier?
> I'm far from being a professional and I get nervous every time I fall a tree with a bar shorter than the tree diameter.
> Must be a European thing. They also like to abuse their saws by throwing them around and hard loading them all the time on YouTube also. I usually move on to the next video if the guy spends most of his time time bogging down and stopping the chain.



That was painful..............I'm not abussive or what I consider abussive I guess but a saw is a tool and tools get thrown and crushed. I'll never understand the short bar on a big saw thing ever, however star of the video could've done the job from one side of the tree and not walked a mile around it before he was done. I don't like bending over for one thing so my short bar is 32" and for two I always figured better accuracy gunning a longer bar than short, like a torpedo level..............yes it will show you where level is but will it still be dead nuts level if a 4 foot level is set on there?


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## pdqdl

I am surprised nobody commented on his complete inability to drive a wedge. That axe looks dull enough; maybe he was using the wrong side to knock in the steel wedge?

I found this thread looking for an old picture of gunning sticks. RandyMac: still got your original pics? This 5 year old thread seems to have lost the original links.


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## muddstopper

I would like to see the pic of the gunning sticks too.. I have never cut any really big timber like you west coast folks. Biggest thing I ever cut was a 6ft dia white pine, but those are few and far between.. I usually just eyeball a tree to see which way its leaning and cut toward the lean. Might notch to pull a little one way or the other. If it dont want to fall the way I want it to fall, I use a cable and winch to pull the direction it has to fall. Aint even done that for a long time. Anything bigger than firewood size, I give to a logger and just take the tops. While I probably wont be using gunning sticks anytime soon, I would like to see what they are and how there used.

eta, I like carrots too.


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## ray benson

pdqdl said:


> I am surprised nobody commented on his complete inability to drive a wedge. That axe looks dull enough; maybe he was using the wrong side to knock in the steel wedge?
> 
> I found this thread looking for an old picture of gunning sticks. RandyMac: still got your original pics? This 5 year old thread seems to have lost the original links.



Using gunsticks at about 3:15 in the video


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## muddstopper

thanks for the video. I had never seen anyone use gunsticks before.


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## pdqdl

It occurs to me that using the gunning sticks might really be helpful for those situations where the facecut was not made level, whether by plan or accident.

Has anyone used these enough to know how well they predict the swing of an off-level hinge?


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## RandyMac

used what?


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## pdqdl

gunning sticks...to predict the fall of a non-horizonal face cut on a tree.


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## RandyMac

Define non-horizontal face cut.


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## pdqdl

Left corner higher than right corner...or vice-versa. Tree doesn't fall on a "straight down" arc, but swings to the side. Useful for starting the fall in one direction, but hitting the ground on a different line. I don't do that very often, but it can be useful. 

How much swing you are getting can be hard to predict.


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## RandyMac

Asymmetrical face cut. Useful for many things and largely predictable.


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## pdqdl

Sure. If you do it all the time, but I can still see a need for using a better sighting tool. 

I guess those old timers used the gunning sticks 'cause they lacked experience?


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## RandyMac

And you would be making the wrong guess.
The use of ''sticks'' has been around for ages, it is an accepted practice in very large, very tall timber where precision is required.
The most experienced choppers I worked with used them every day. I made a set and learned the proper way to use them.


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## JTM

ray benson said:


> Using gunsticks at about 3:15 in the video



I hate to get into a fight with one those guys from back then. Probably knock my head clean off.


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## Gologit

pdqdl said:


> Sure. If you do it all the time, but I can still see a need for using a better sighting tool.
> 
> I guess those old timers used the gunning sticks 'cause they lacked experience?



If you're falling small trees, say anything under 48"dbh, just use the gunning sights on your saw. You can also stick your axe head into the face and use the handle for a gunning guide.
Gunning sticks work well on bigger stuff when hitting the lay is important and saving out the entire tree is a major goal.


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## northmanlogging

pdqdl said:


> Left corner higher than right corner...or vice-versa. Tree doesn't fall on a "straight down" arc, but swings to the side. Useful for starting the fall in one direction, but hitting the ground on a different line. I don't do that very often, but it can be useful.
> 
> How much swing you are getting can be hard to predict.



Um what?

Explain how this isn't just a crooked face cut, and more then just sloppy work? Seriously I don't get it.


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## pdqdl

I guess you just haven't cut down enough trees yet. Maybe it is one of those things that the PNW loggers haven't learned to do except by accident.

Some of us actually do it on purpose. It is a particularly valuable cut to know how to do if you are an arborist, working aloft. (horizontal branches are the ultimate head-leaners, by the way) I seldom consider that style of cut useful on the ground. If you are really serious about this question (rather than being snotty about a non-logger posting in your forum), I can try to sketch up the difference in how the tree falls and why you might want to use it.

Until then, consider this: While a feller can deliver a tree to the same ending point on the ground with either an even face cut or a "sloppy" one, the path of the tree getting to the same ending point will be different. Different arcs of a circle, intersecting at two points: starting & ending, but different paths everywhere else.

You guys like to talk about swinging a tree against the lean; this is just another way to get a tree down a bit different from the standard open-face with back cut.


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## RandyMac

Don't you have batteries to charge or something?


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## grizz55chev

RandyMac said:


> Don't you have batteries to charge or something?


Lol, you're a hoot!


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## hseII

RandyMac said:


> Don't you have batteries to charge or something?


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## Gologit

pdqdl said:


> I guess you just haven't cut down enough trees yet. Maybe it is one of those things that the PNW loggers haven't learned to do except by accident.
> 
> 
> 
> Until then, consider this: While a feller can deliver a tree to the same ending point on the ground with either an even face cut or a "sloppy" one, the path of the tree getting to the same ending point will be different. Different arcs of a circle, intersecting at two points: starting & ending, but different paths everywhere else.
> 
> You guys like to talk about swinging a tree against the lean; this is just another way to get a tree down a bit different from the standard open-face with back cut.



Thanks for the information. I'm sure that nobody in F&L could have possibly figured this out on their own without your help.

I'll alert the media.

Now, go back to your lawn mowing and shrubbery pruning where you belong.


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## pdqdl

There is a reason you aren't a mod anymore; I'm pretty sure it had something to do with rude behavior and chasing folks out of what you considered your private domain.

Oh yes! I remember! You banned me, and the management reversed your decision when they reviewed the record (at my request). They also apologized for your actions and it wasn't too long after that you weren't a mod anymore.

It seems that you are still holding a grudge.


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## rwoods

Just a firewood hack that doesn't know whether or not gunning sticks can be used to accurately predict where a stem will fall with an uneven cut, but why would a professional use a cut that creates a hard to predict swing in a high risk precise falling environment?

Ron


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## pdqdl

RandyMac said:


> Don't you have batteries to charge or something?



Really? 

You know, I came into this thread very politely, asking questions on a topic I was not familiar with, knowing that I could get a good (or at least well-informed) answer. In typical fashion, you guys quickly revert to insults and snide comments. I am quite capable of handling those problems, but I really don't understand why you guys try to chase everyone out of your forum. 

You act like anyone that doesn't claim to have been a logger for at least 25 years is unworthy of any respect, and you usually resort to insulting newcomers livelihood. All that does for your industry and for your individual reputations is to lower our respect for you and drive traffic away from this website. _I'm sure the management of this website really wants your participation to help their business out that way._


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## RandyMac

pdqdl said:


> Really?
> 
> You know, I came into this thread very politely, asking questions on a topic I was not familiar with, knowing that I could get a good (or at least well-informed) answer. In typical fashion, you guys quickly revert to insults and snide comments. I am quite capable of handling those problems, but I really don't understand why you guys try to chase everyone out of your forum.
> 
> You act like anyone that doesn't claim to have been a logger for at least 25 years is unworthy of any respect, and you usually resort to insulting newcomers livelihood. All that does for your industry and for your individual reputations is to lower our respect for you and drive traffic away from this website. _I'm sure the management of this website really wants your participation to help their business out that way._



You made a few disparaging comments yourself after being given information and you come off as a troll.
Since you claim to be quite capable of handling those problems, why don't you spread the good word to those who follow you.


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## pdqdl

rwoods said:


> Just a firewood hack that doesn't know whether or not gunning sticks can be used to accurately predict where a stem will fall with an uneven cut, but why would a professional use a cut that creates a hard to predict swing in a high risk precise falling environment?
> 
> Ron



There are good reasons to use a lot of different cuts. I would like to mention that I never mentioned a high risk, nor precise falling environment.

If you follow this forum, you will find many occasions where a professional logger expounds on the merits of a rather sophisticated felling cut to accomplish some special effect. I don't consider my question to be any different, except that I was inquiring specifically to a rather experienced member about a forestry tool I had never used, and under a specific condition that I thought it might be advantageous to use that tool.

The cut I described isn't that all fired hard to predict where it will go, but it does somewhat defy more traditional methods of sighting the fall line; hence my question. Besides, "hard to predict" and "high risk" is why my customers call me. If it was all simple and safe, you firewood hacks would get all my jobs. When I cut down a tree, it is for money, not fun. About 1/2 of the time, I consider loss of life or serious injury a real risk, and I am always looking for a shortcut to make a job easier, faster, safer, or more profitable.

For some reason unknown to me, it seems that uneven corners in the face cut earns almost universal contempt in this forum. True, most of the times you see an uneven cut it is a mistake by the feller, but that needn't be the rule. Such a cut is no less practical than the various Dutchman cuts that the loggers are fond of praising. Every type of cut in the wrong place is bad, and every "good" cut can turn out very badly if done in the wrong place.


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## pdqdl

RandyMac said:


> You made a few disparaging comments yourself after being given information and you come off as a troll.
> Since you claim to be quite capable of handling those problems, why don't you spread the good word to those who follow you.



I really am not aware of any disparaging comment that I have made. Please quote me and explain, 'cause I am not seeing it, except for those where I am responding to a perceived affront. With respect to spreading the good word? I have very recently praised your talent elsewhere, and quoted you by name while doing so. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/some-wtf-pics.128850/page-6736#post-6140428

So far as I am aware, I have no followers whatsoever.


----------



## madhatte

pdqdl said:


> For some reason unknown to me, it seems that uneven corners in the face cut earns universal contempt in this forum. True, most of the times you see an uneven cut it is a mistake by the feller, but that needn't be the rule. Such a cut is no less practical than the various Dutchman cuts that the loggers are fond of praising.



That is what has become known as an "alternative fact". We all know the physics of our cuts, and how they affect the movement of the tree. I'm just a dumb forester and even I know that. Further, I'd suspect that the hesitation to go into details regarding the use of gunning sticks stems from the fact that unless you're cutting big, expensive wood, they just aren't all that useful. Loggerfolk ain't stupid. They're not gonna carry around a thing that they're not gonna use.


----------



## rwoods

pdqdl, 

I never thought you were making your cuts for fun which should be clear from my question. Perceptions are hard to read particularly when there is an unseen background. Right or wrong I took your first question as sincere. Another sincere question came from NML which you took otherwise. Can't speak for NML but I think his question was coming from a background of you fix bad cuts instead of trying to figure out where they will send the stem and if it is an intentional cut then you should already have a good idea where the stem is going. Your collective posts have left me wondering about the sincerity of your first question. Or did a prejudicial bias or two just derail everything?

I trespass in this forum frequently. For the most part the loggers here are men of few words. Often I wish I had some gunning stick to figure out what they just said.

If you ever get a valid answer, it would be interesting to know.

Ron


----------



## 1270d

Please sketch out what your talking about pdqrstuv.


----------



## Gologit

pdqdl said:


> There is a reason you aren't a mod anymore; I'm pretty sure it had something to do with rude behavior and chasing folks out of what you considered your private domain.
> 
> Oh yes! I remember! You banned me, and the management reversed your decision when they reviewed the record (at my request). They also apologized for your actions and it wasn't too long after that you weren't a mod anymore.
> 
> It seems that you are still holding a grudge.




No grudge at all. You're not worth it. You weren't worth it then and you're definitely not worth it now.

I answered your question about gunning sticks politely and I was willing to leave it at that until you started running your mouth.

You remind me of a bratty little kid that purposely aggravates people until somebody gets tired of it and gives it back to you, thus giving you the attention you seek and seem to need so desperately. You argue and whine and try to excuse your poor behavior by claiming that you were attacked. You bring it on yourself.

Every once in awhile you show up on the F&L section, cast aspersions on the PNW loggers, pick a fight, get your butt handed to you, and then you sulk and pout and display your hurt feelings like a badge of honor. You're too well known here and nobody buys that any more. 
Aren't you tired of your behavior yet? I know most of us are.


----------



## pdqdl

rwoods said:


> pdqdl,
> 
> I never thought you were making your cuts for fun which should be clear from my question. Perceptions are hard to read particularly when there is an unseen background. Right or wrong I took your first question as sincere. Another sincere question came from NML which you took otherwise. Can't speak for NML but I think his question was coming from a background of you fix bad cuts instead of trying to figure out where they will send the stem and if it is an intentional cut then you should already have a good idea where the stem is going. Your collective posts have left me wondering about the sincerity of your first question. Or did a prejudicial bias or two just derail everything?
> 
> I trespass in this forum frequently. For the most part the loggers here are men of few words. Often I wish I had some gunning stick to figure out what they just said.
> 
> If you ever get a valid answer, it would be interesting to know.
> 
> Ron



Thanks for the impartial perspective. Perhaps I made a mistake, but I read more sarcasm into the response from NML than you did. I have read his posts for a long time, seen his posted pics (as I recall), and even looked up what a gyppo is, so that I would understand what his sig was referring to. As far as I am concerned, it is damned unlikely that I would be able to educate him on any aspect of cutting down a tree. Add to that concept the fact that Randy Mac stated early in this conflict that assymetric cuts were useful.

So I took it as sarcasm, and responded a little bit in kind. On top of that, I did provide a non-sarcastic answer by which I hoped to provide a fair and non-sarcastic answer to his question, had he really been interested in it. If I was mistaken then I will apologize to NML with full sincerity. On the other hand, I kinda expect that he meant full well the sarcasm I inferred.

I guess we need to hear from NML.

I never lack sincerity, even when I am being sarcastic, petty, bitter, or whatever attribute of negative-impression you might read into my posts. My biggest problem is that people simply read more into my statements than their literal meaning. Gologit and myself go acrimoniously back a long time. He tries to pick a fight with me, adds insult and invective, and then apparently expects me to dry up in fear of his awesomeness. That just isn't my style. I would like to point out that I don't insult people with name calling or catty remarks. I tell them the bitter truth as I see it, and they naturally resent hearing what they don't like to be told.

Unless someone wishes to continue this silly feud, I will depart this forum and leave you guys to enjoy each others company.

BTW: Gologit, I really don't feel like my butt was handed to me. I challenged the lot of you to quote me insulting anyone, and that doesn't seem to have happened. I will add that I am not aware of any bad behaivior, either. Please! Quote me, show me what you don't like, and I promise to listen. I don't suffer from any butt-hurt, and I would really like to know where that sulking comment comes from. Oh! You have a meaning that I don't know about? Sulking silently just ain't my style. As for pouting? I laugh at that.


----------



## pdqdl

1270d said:


> Please sketch out what your talking about pdqrstuv.



I'll see if I can make something practical. Graphics aren't my forte'.


----------



## RandyMac

So, in your words, this guy is lacking in experience.


----------



## northmanlogging

pdqdl said:


> I guess you just haven't cut down enough trees yet. Maybe it is one of those things that the PNW loggers haven't learned to do except by accident.
> 
> Some of us actually do it on purpose. It is a particularly valuable cut to know how to do if you are an arborist, working aloft. (horizontal branches are the ultimate head-leaners, by the way) I seldom consider that style of cut useful on the ground. If you are really serious about this question (rather than being snotty about a non-logger posting in your forum), I can try to sketch up the difference in how the tree falls and why you might want to use it.
> 
> Until then, consider this: While a feller can deliver a tree to the same ending point on the ground with either an even face cut or a "sloppy" one, the path of the tree getting to the same ending point will be different. Different arcs of a circle, intersecting at two points: starting & ending, but different paths everywhere else.
> 
> You guys like to talk about swinging a tree against the lean; this is just another way to get a tree down a bit different from the standard open-face with back cut.



Actually it was a serious question.

I've heard of folks using these crooked faces as a swing cut, and not here in the interweb, by folks that then fired the guy cutting for em in real life. (there was a fence... it died... didn't need too and was totally avoidable)

I've never used this crooked face thing, unless trying to side shift which is different, at least not intentionally. Simply because there are other ways to swing a tree that leaves the butt square, meaning less work for me and more timber to the mill.

However, I'm always open to new ideas. Good or bad


----------



## northmanlogging

P.S. sorry for the long response time... I was busy... 

But the lights work on the Essavator!


----------



## pdqdl

RandyMac said:


> So, in your words, this guy is lacking in experience.View attachment 555025



You completely misunderstood my statement, and my meaning.

I asked about gunning stick use on an assymetric cut. You told me "Asymmetrical face cut. Useful for many things and largely predictable", while ignoring my original question.

When you say that the asymmetrical cut is largely predictable, and you fail to comment on my question, I naturally infer that you are stating that the gunning sticks are not needed on a predictable cut. My comment was _intended_ to illustrate that the old timers in the posted pic DID know what they were doing, that they WERE using the sticks to predict the lay of a cut, and that you might consider sharing some of your experience and just answer the damned question. It's called a rhetorical question, and I don't generally stop to explain them.

Instead, you somehow took my comment as disparaging the guys that invented the industry, and got all huffy about it. I did not intend to piss you off, nor do I think my rhetorical question can seriously be taken as an insult by anyone who is not already primed to pick a fight.

Honestly, in the future I will try to avoid using language constructs like rhetorical questions. I know that you don't think so, but I am never trying to pick a fight. That being said, I seem to be quite willing to take on a fight when I think someone is poking me in the nose. If you read my comments as friendly, you will usually be right. When I intend to piss someone off, it is pretty damned obvious. Just ask Gologit.


----------



## pdqdl

northmanlogging said:


> Actually it was a serious question.
> 
> I've heard of folks using these crooked faces as a swing cut, and not here in the interweb, by folks that then fired the guy cutting for em in real life. (there was a fence... it died... didn't need too and was totally avoidable)
> 
> I've never used this crooked face thing, unless trying to side shift which is different, at least not intentionally. Simply because there are other ways to swing a tree that leaves the butt square, meaning less work for me and more timber to the mill.
> 
> However, I'm always open to new ideas. Good or bad



I humbly apologize for my sarcastic answer. Really and truly, I thought that you were gigging at me. In light of your zealous pursuit of maximizing timber, I can finally understand why you have not used this kind of cut (favorably) before now. Kindly remember that not long before, I had been told by a seasoned veteran of this forum that asymetric cuts were well understood and useful. I have fallen into the error that so many folks do: I erroneously read into your statements what was not there, as you have so politely explained above.

I would delete the offensive components of my response to you, but that will make some of the subsequent acrimony seem illogical. We would all have to have a deletion party, and I don't think that would be popular. Please, just ignore the part about needing to cut down a few more trees, and the rest of my answer stands. No other parts were even slightly sarcastic.

I will take the time to put up some decent pictures/ drawings of my points, and perhaps then you guys will see what I am talking about. Also; I will attempt to make clear why I think the use of gunning sticks will be a departure from other sighting methods while utilizing the "assymetric cut".

A true apology consists of three components: A statement of regret or remorse, an admission of error, and an attempt to make good what has been wronged. I hope with this answer I have done right by you.


----------



## RandyMac

Your are quite the pip.
There is a lot of difference in cutting crooked and using an asymmetrical cut, I'm sure you know that already.
As for the rest, you come across as a pinhead, which leads to some responses that are not to your liking.


----------



## Rio95

@pdqdl - No offense meant, I don't want to get into this argument, but I do think you missed the answer to your question - quoted below. 

Gunning sticks, from what I have read, were used in very large and tall timber where sighting off your saw, axe or other means was not accurate enough simply due to the size of the timber. I'm sure they could be used to sight up a non-level cut, but cannot see how they would offer any measurable advantage over sighting off your saw. As with any form of swinging, sighting is an estimate at best, dependent on wood strength, face cut, and many other factors that even gunning sights cannot predict.



RandyMac said:


> The use of ''sticks'' has been around for ages, it is an accepted practice in very large, very tall timber where precision is required.


----------



## northmanlogging

as for gunning sticks, as mentioned above, anything under 4' could probably just use a large framers square or some such, easier to drag around, but still give the jist of where it is going.


----------



## pdqdl

Rio95 said:


> @pdqdl - No offense meant, I don't want to get into this argument, but I do think you missed the answer to your question - quoted below.
> 
> Gunning sticks, from what I have read, were used in very large and tall timber where sighting off your saw, axe or other means was not accurate enough simply due to the size of the timber. I'm sure they could be used to sight up a non-level cut, but cannot see how they would offer any measurable advantage over sighting off your saw. As with any form of swinging, sighting is an estimate at best, dependent on wood strength, face cut, and many other factors that even gunning sights cannot predict.



No offense taken, none whatsoever. Ok. I'll explain why i don't think the other tools are anywhere close to serving the same purpose.

The asymmetric cut, as I occasionally use it, is not being used to save any part of the tree, nor is it to more easily get the tree to hit the object zone; it is to land the tree while swinging the canopy around branches from adjacent trees or perhaps other objects aloft. While sighting down a t-square or the gunning sights on your saw are ok most of the time, they don't allow you to get behind the sighting tool and eyeball the entire path you intend for the tree to follow.

Now I'm not saying it is impossible to lay down on my back and sight down one leg of my plywood t-square in the same arc as some gunning sticks, but it might not be very practical due to underbrush, rocks, other stems of the same tree, etc. Laying a pair of long sticks into the corners of the cut, particularly if I am attempting to sight a wonky angled cut, seems like it will be a lot more practical to look overhead with. The measurable advantage is ease of use, and consequentially being more accurate by eliminating errors.


----------



## pdqdl

Rio95 said:


> @pdqdl - No offense meant, I don't want to get into this argument, but I do think you missed the answer to your question - quoted below.



That answer really doesn't answer the question I was asking. My question wasn't about why to use the sticks in general, it was how well they might be used to predict the falling path aloft of the the tree using an asymmetric cut. [Note: Randy Mac called it asymmetric, so that is what I have been sticking to.] 

At this point, I have worked everything out in my mind, and I am no longer seeking any answers on this topic. My best guess is that no one here has ever used them for that purpose since that type of cut ain't real popular around here, and they figure that if'n they never needed to, I shouldn't either.


----------



## pdqdl

For those of you that are honestly waiting for my graphic visualization of this beaten-to-death topic, here goes:

Please zoom in real close on my drawn face cuts. I worked real hard to get them looking close to accurate.




Northmanlogging: Did this answer your question?

Obviously, this approach is only for special occasions. Others have already mentioned that the strength of the hinge and holding wood will vary considerably among tree species. I would like to add that achieving a whole lot of swing into a rather tall heavy tree is likely to cause premature hinge failure and a missed shot. Perhaps with bad consequences. Naturally, you should use all the tricks you know to make the hinge last as long as possible.

My most common use for this is to cut down big, broad deciduous trees that have a canopy that will sweep branches out of other trees. If I hit them, I can seriously injure the non-target tree or just at a minimum, be required to climb another tree to fix what should have been missed. I might just be seeking to pick an easier landing zone to do the cleanup, or i might be gambling that I can miss all the non-targets. I don't really like to gamble too much, so acquiring a better sighting method is appealing.

This technique can also be used when you are working somewhat against the lean. Quite frankly, it is so easy for me to set a rope and pull it where I want, I don't generally worry about the lean of a tree too much. Obviously, that isn't a good plan if you are taking out a 15' DBH redwood, but I don't think that happens too often anymore.

BTW: I haven't hit a fence, house, or other customer structure for over ten years. Quite frankly, except for the time I swatted my own chipper, I just can't recall how long ago it has been. I didn't get that kind of luck except by being careful to KNOW how my cuts will work out, or taking the time to make sure that it works out the way I have planned.


----------



## pdqdl

RandyMac said:


> Your are quite the pip.
> There is a lot of difference in cutting crooked and using an asymmetrical cut, I'm sure you know that already.
> As for the rest, you come across as a pinhead, which leads to some responses that are not to your liking.



Thank you, I think. I certainly might qualify under both definitions provided. An excellent adjective for a person, I think. Sadly, I fear that you didn't quite mean it that way.

pip1
pip/
_noun_
noun: *pip*; plural noun: *pips*

*1*.
a small hard seed in a fruit.
synonyms: seed, stone, pit
"apple pips"
*2*.
informal
an excellent or very attractive person or thing.
As to a pinhead? 'Tis hard to change who we are, even harder to change who other people are. My quest in life is to change both for the better. You can't see it, but I do.


----------



## pdqdl

pdqdl said:


> ...
> At this point, I have worked everything out in my mind, ...



For those who are interested:

NO! Gunning sticks of equal length do NOT predict where an asymmetric face cut will fall. Just like they won't predict where a leaning tree will fall if cut an an angle off from the lean. All other sighting methods that use a perpendicular measure will fail for the same reason.

Now a set with adjustable length legs? That will work nicely.

Set ends of pole in corners of face cut.
Adjust legs until the gunning tool matches the vertical angle of the tree.
Get behind sighting tool, eyeball the final path.
Adjustable length gunning sights will work equally well with horizontal face cuts for crooked trees using the above method. I think my adjustable length pruning poles will work just fine for that, all I need is a hinge...

No! Not the Silky! They cost too much.​


----------



## northmanlogging

just for the sake of argument

A soft dutch will do the same thing but be easier to aim.


----------



## madhatte

sizwell too


----------



## pdqdl

northmanlogging said:


> just for the sake of argument
> 
> A soft dutch will do the same thing but be easier to aim.



Thanks. I guess that is something else I need to experiment with. I have always considered that any form of Dutchman leads to an early tearing of the hinge (with a little induced rotation of the trunk), and reduced control closer to the ground. I was recently trying to figure out how you guys figure out how much swing might occur with that technique, and it looked like it was a whole lot more art & experience than science.

I will try to play with that method someday when I can't hit anything with my inexperience. In this part of the short-fat-deciduous tree world, _nobody _uses any form of Dutchman except those fellas with dull saws that cannot match up their cuts. I may have to make sure that no one is watching; I will undoubtedly be met with contempt by my local peers for doing silly **** with a chainsaw.

Oh yes! The local sawyers are just as contentious and unwilling to learn new techniques as the logging industry. Probably quite a bit worse, since there isn't really too much of a professional industry here.


----------



## northmanlogging

The early failing of the hold wood is part and parcel of any form of dutch, when its powers are used for good... its a good thing, a hackery dutch (read unintentional) is how **** goes wrong quickly.

For the soft dutch the first and deepest is basically a gun cut to initiate the swing, the stem with sit down in that direction before starting to swing back around. The other step cuts are intended to keep the momentum going before finally reaching the face cut and then hopefully being stopped. 

Add a sizwheel and you can get some real motion out of em, even so much as to get it to skid sideways once it contacts the ground though that is rare its pretty freckin cool when it does (limb and stuff are pretty good brakes)

I've noticed, though still seem to not account for, that a side leaner that is faced directly towards where you want it to fall will fall about the same distance off as to the amount of lean, its been beat into my head to always gun where you want them to land... but the natural lean has a negative effect on this... I get tired and stupid...


----------



## northmanlogging

this is a side shift... and its one of my Favorite vids... when you say crooked face this is what I have in mind

works better on a hill, and is really really dangerous... but a handy bit of knowledge when needed, just remember to have lots of running room and stay on the upside of the cuts, and never try to send one up hill. Also don't try this with a standard face cut, it will likely back slip and side slip... not good...


----------



## madhatte

Thing about using any kind of offset hinge to direct a tree is that it is exactly the early breaking of the weak side that allows the swing to happen. Once you get it moving, the momentum that carries it around breaks the weak hinge and holds tight to the remaining hinge. You are depending on that to prevent it from just flopping where it wants to. As a guideline, if it sits down on your bar as you cut the offside hinge thinner, the top is moving and this is both expected and necessary. Once it rolls into the face, the bar should free up so that you can pull your saw out and skedaddle. You want to escape in the direction of the thick side of the hinge mostly. If you fail to get enough momentum to roll it, you are just gonna have to wedge or jack it into motion. Taller trees and trees with wider crowns are more likely candidates for this kind of treatment because they build the momentum better and faster.


----------



## RandyMac

The sticks ensure you lined everything up, not to predict the action.


----------



## pdqdl

madhatte said:


> sizwell too


 
Siswell?


----------



## pdqdl

RandyMac said:


> The sticks ensure you lined everything up, not to predict the action.



Well sure. But if you discover that it ain't going the right way, you make corrections. 

I would like to add that the wonderful picture you posted of the gunning sticks in action was clearly being used to mark the location of where & how to make the cuts. I would call that somewhat predictive.

I think you are making petty arguments here. I don't understand your motivation with that statement except to express your personal disdain for me. Is ok. I don't care about that.


----------



## pdqdl

northmanlogging said:


> this is a side shift... and its one of my Favorite vids... when you say crooked face this is what I have in mind
> 
> works better on a hill, and is really really dangerous... but a handy bit of knowledge when needed, just remember to have lots of running room and stay on the upside of the cuts, and never try to send one up hill. Also don't try this with a standard face cut, it will likely back slip and side slip... not good...




Yep. Pretty close to the same thing, although I don't generally let them fall off the stump that much. Then again, I am _never _concerned about "saving wood". It looked very well executed, done by an experienced pro. I believe he was compensating for a crooked tree more than swinging around obstructions; there is not much difference in the final analysis.

I would have spent a great deal more time studying the cut, 'cause I don't get that many. Hence, my desire to improve my technique.


----------



## northmanlogging

Well that was me... so it was intended to skip around the maples and hopefully land parallel with the gully i was in... so...

It worked kinda... missed most of the maple but it still broke on the far side


----------



## madhatte

pdqdl said:


> Siswell?



Not the best pic, but it's what I have on my phone right now, from a fire. What it is is a vertical notch cut down into the face cut, forward of the fat side of an offset hinge, in order to give the fibers somewhere to bend into before they break. The bending gives the tree time to come around before closing the face and falling. You can really get them to move this way, even relatively small ones. The big benefit here is that it saves a lot of wedging by using gravity to do the work. The disadvantage is that if it doesn't start moving on time, you gotta wedge anyway and now you have less hinge. This one was hanging out over a road and I pulled it around about 120 degrees. You can see the fibers on the butt where it pulled out of only one side, and the other side where I nipped everything off. Again, when it sits down on your bar as you nip the off side, you know the top is moving, and you hang on until the saw comes free and you skedaddle forthwith.


----------



## pdqdl

Ahh! I have been doing that for years, but nobody ever taught me how, nor that it had a name.

You lumber guys sound like you are cutting off the thin side of the hinge. I don't do that, and I never worry about trapping the saw, either. I just let it keep hanging on, and slowly advance into the thicker side until the tree is going down. Then I just step back and watch.

It's probably one of those "save the wood" things, I guess? I care not about any pulled fibers or getting it off the stump.


----------



## madhatte

You cut off the far side when that's the direction of the natural lean and you want the tree to come around. The tree will pull in the direction of the stronger hingewood. Sitting on the bar is no biggie, it's like using the bar as a bobber to detect the beginning of movement of the top. It won't stay trapped but a moment or two. as soon as it's free you know the tree's coming around and your work there is done.


... aaand it's not about saving wood -- see the fibers are pulling from the stump rather than the log? That's just a bonus. It's more about saving energy by not pounding wedges.


----------



## Westboastfaller

pdqdl said:


> Thanks for the impartial perspective. Perhaps I made a mistake, but I read more sarcasm into the response from NML than you did. I have read his posts for a long time, seen his posted pics (as I recall), and even looked up what a gyppo is, so that I would understand what his sig was referring to. As far as I am concerned, it is damned unlikely that I would be able to educate him on any aspect of cutting down a tree. Add to that concept the fact that Randy Mac stated early in this conflict that assymetric cuts were useful.
> 
> So I took it as sarcasm, and responded a little bit in kind. On top of that, I did provide a non-sarcastic answer by which I hoped to provide a fair and non-sarcastic answer to his question, had he really been interested in it. If I was mistaken then I will apologize to NML with full sincerity. On the other hand, I kinda expect that he meant full well the sarcasm I inferred.
> 
> I guess we need to hear from NML.
> 
> I never lack sincerity, even when I am being sarcastic, petty, bitter, or whatever attribute of negative-impression you might read into my posts. My biggest problem is that people simply read more into my statements than their literal meaning. Gologit and myself go acrimoniously back a long time. He tries to pick a fight with me, adds insult and invective, and then apparently expects me to dry up in fear of his awsomeness. That just isn't my style. I would like to point out that I don't insult people with name calling or catty remarks. I tell them the bitter truth as I see it, and they naturally resent hearing what they don't like to be told.
> 
> Unless someone wishes to continue this silly feud, I will depart this forum and leave you guys to enjoy each others company.
> 
> BTW: Gologit, I really don't feel like my butt was handed to me. I challenged the lot of you to quote me insulting anyone, and that doesn't seem to have happened. I will add that I am not aware of any bad behaivior, either. Please! Quote me, show me what you don't like, and I promise to listen. I don't suffer from any butt-hurt, and I would really like to know where that sulking comment comes from. Oh! You have a meaning that I don't know about? Sulking silently just ain't my style. As for pouting? I laugh at that.


 doesn't really matter what I quote.

Your behavior was so
G-D Dam bad I gave you a like.
"Maybe PNW Fallers lack experience" lol.
I don't know whether to laugh with you or at you. Pick a side, and be in it to win it.
Don't say something and say " I just came over here to ask a question".
I'm an independent, I'll call it how I see it.
Yes you dished out the insult. It's worse not to own it right! I have no issue apologizing to anyone if I step over the line or make a joke that was close to home to somebody and they informed me. I have people hit my hot buttons and they apologize. Randy T Smac & Nologic ; I once said " If you guys ever have a dream you guys could ever fall Timber half as good as I could then you two better wake up and apologize.
I guess they both have this reaccerring wet dream as I get a lot of apologies way of PM. Just apologize to me and let's move on.

Thnk you



Moreover:
On a serious note...
Why are you talking out of both sides of your mouth and confusing the matter.

One is for manipulating a tree and the other is for insured accuracy. Polar opposites.
The Physics is predictable not the degree it will travel. She is apples and oranges my friend. Do you want to talk about apples or oranges? Let's just not put 'em in the same box as it seems like a head game.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Westboastfaller said:


> doesn't really matter what I quote.
> 
> Your behavior was so
> G-D Dam bad I give you a like.
> "Maybe PNW Fallers lack experience" lol.
> I don't know whether to laugh with you or at you. Pick a side, and be in it to win it.
> Don't say something and say " I just came over here to ask a question".
> I'm an independent, I'll call it how I see it.
> Yes you dished out the insult. It's worse not to own it right! I have no issue apologizing to anyone if I step over the line or make a joke that was close to home to somebody and they informed me. I have people hit my hot buttons and apologize. Randy T Smac & Nologic ; I once said " If you guys ever have a dream you guys could ever fall Timber half as good as I could then you two better wake up and apologize.
> I guess they both have this reaccerring wet dream as I get a lot of apologies way of PM. Just apologize to me and let's move on.
> 
> Thnk you
> 
> 
> 
> Moreover:
> 
> Why are you talking out of both sides of your mouth and confusing the matter.
> 
> One is for manipulating a tree and the other is for insured accuracy. Polar opposites.
> The Physics is predictable not the degree it will travel. She is apples and oranges my friend. Do you want to talk about apples or oranges? Let's just not put 'em in the same box as it seems like a head game.


Nologic, lol. Good one.


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## pdqdl

If you are going to quote me inaccurately, don't put it inside quote marks. Using quote marks means that it is word for word, which just ain't so.


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## JTM

madhatte said:


> You cut off the far side when that's the direction of the natural lean and you want the tree to come around. The tree will pull in the direction of the stronger hingewood. Sitting on the bar is no biggie, it's like using the bar as a bobber to detect the beginning of movement of the top. It won't stay trapped but a moment or two. as soon as it's free you know the tree's coming around and your work there is done.
> 
> 
> ... aaand it's not about saving wood -- see the fibers are pulling from the stump rather than the log? That's just a bonus. It's more about saving energy by not pounding wedges.


I did this today on a small 25' hickory and it worked like a charm.


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## madhatte

I've only cut one hickory, and man did it surprise me by how strong the fibers were. I cut that hinge down to nothing and tripled my wedges and it just kept holding on, and when it finally went it was like it was in slow motion. That's some tough wood!


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## pdqdl

Hickory isn't nearly as tough as Osage orange. Ever cut one of those?


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## madhatte

No. The hickory I cut was planted as an ornamental for some reason and was damaged by an ice storm, so it was marked for removal. We don't ordinarily have them here, nor osage orange. On that project I also cut a bunch of red oak, sweetgum, and sycamore, which we also don't have here.


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## pdqdl

Those are all common trees for me, I seldom get any conifers, and they are usually a small austrian pine killed by disease. I don't see too many hickories; they are more a forest-tree than an "urban-forest" variety. Still, I get an occasional shagbark. I don't ever recall noticing that they were any tougher than locust, which I consider a rather tough wood as well.

Osage orange is almost a nightmare to work in. I don't know of any tree harder to cut up or handle. The branches are all crooked and tangle across each other. Once you cut off a branch, you still need help pulling it off the tree. After that, they are practically impossible to feed into a chipper, and a lot of them have thorns, as well. They are highly sought after by just a few folks, since they make fence posts that last 40-50 years. Yellow, stringy wood that burns incredibly hot in a wood stove, they are quite popular with the firewood guys.

It is quite uncommon for Osage orange to be damaged by ice-storms. They are just too strong. I'm pretty sure I have never seen a hedge tree split during a cut (no concerns about barber-chair), and only rarely do we ever get a broken tree or branch of any sort, even in the worst wind storms.

60-80 years ago, they were planted all across the Midwest as wind breaks during the dust bowl days. I still come across those old fence rows in very nice housing communities where the developer chose to not rip out the old trees. You can always count on ruining several chains cutting out the trunk where the barbed wire was strung between the trees. So old now, the wire is gone, but it remains inside all the trunks.


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## northmanlogging

I've heard and probably read somewhere that Osage Orange makes a real good bow wood, as good or better then yew.


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## madhatte

Sounds like an "interesting" species. I'm only a little bit disappointed to have not made its acquaintance.


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## pdqdl

I couldn't say. I have never been around the European yew. I did find this article online, that specifically compares the two, along with a couple of other woods that are even better. Hickory, for whatever reason, wasn't on the list. Apparently, it has more to do with a modulus of elasticity than anything else. According to this source, they are almost identical in bow performance characteristics.

"In terms of looking at the raw mechanical data of woods, _*the best bow woods tend to be those that have a low MOE and a high MOR*_. (Stated another way, the best bow woods tend to be those that will bend easily, and not break.)"

Modulus Of Elasticity=MOE
Modulus Of Rupture=MOR
_*
"Given the great differences in density and overall strength between Yew and Osage Orange, it’s very interesting to note that the Bow Index of the two species comes out to nearly the same."*_




Given these numbers, a bow made with Osage Orange would be stronger or thinner, when compared to yew. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't bend as much before snapping, so you would need it to be longer in order to shoot the same length arrows. If they performed equally well as an archery tool, I would rather have a bow made with Osage orange; 'cause in a battle situation, as hard as that wood is, it would surely make a better club when you ran out of arrows!


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## pdqdl

madhatte said:


> I've only cut one hickory, and man did it surprise me by how strong the fibers were. I cut that hinge down to nothing and tripled my wedges and it just kept holding on, and when it finally went it was like it was in slow motion. That's some tough wood!





pdqdl said:


> Hickory isn't nearly as tough as Osage orange. Ever cut one of those?




While I was on that wood database website, I looked up the numbers on hickory. There were about 7 species listed, and several of them were actually tougher than Osage orange in several categories. So I stand corrected. Perhaps this is why my favorite US President got his nickname.

"On the last day of the presidency, Jackson admitted that he had but two regrets, that he "had been unable to shoot Henry Clay or to hang John C. Calhoun."​


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## madhatte

I only know that those fibers were far longer and stronger than anything else I've ever cut, and that's saying something because Douglas-fir fibers are both very long and very strong.


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## pdqdl

Common Name(s): Douglas-Fir
Scientific Name: Pseudotsuga menziesii
Tree Size: 200-250 ft (60-75 m) tall, 5-6 ft (1.5-2 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 32 lbs/ft3 (510 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .45, .51
Janka Hardness: 620 lbf (2,760 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 12,500 lbf/in2 (86.2 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,765,000 lbf/in2 (12.17 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 6,950 lbf/in2 (47.9 MPa)

I have never put a saw to a Douglas fir, but the numbers say it is less flexible than either of the trees posted above. Not nearly as strong, it is also lighter and easier to crush. That lack of flexibility is probably why you guys are so worried about getting the tree to fall just right off the stump.


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## JTM

northmanlogging said:


> I've heard and probably read somewhere that Osage Orange makes a real good bow wood, as good or better then yew.


I've never tried it but folks that make self-bows seem to prefer it. Can look pretty interesting as a limb lamination too.


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## Westboastfaller

pdqdl said:


> Common Name(s): Douglas-Fir
> Scientific Name: Pseudotsuga menziesii
> Tree Size: 200-250 ft (60-75 m) tall, 5-6 ft (1.5-2 m) trunk diameter
> Average Dried Weight: 32 lbs/ft3 (510 kg/m3)
> Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .45, .51
> Janka Hardness: 620 lbf (2,760 N)
> Modulus of Rupture: 12,500 lbf/in2 (86.2 MPa)
> Elastic Modulus: 1,765,000 lbf/in2 (12.17 GPa)
> Crushing Strength: 6,950 lbf/in2 (47.9 MPa)
> 
> I have never put a saw to a Douglas fir, but the numbers say it is less flexible than either of the trees posted above. Not nearly as strong, it is also lighter and easier to crush. That lack of flexibility is probably why you guys are so worried about getting the tree to fall just right off the stump.





Its the strength I want or at least a low offset weight to strength ratio. I can manipulate the flexability easy as well increase the strength in movment.
If I think the offset weigh is too great for a down hill lean on a side hill lay then I will use the weigh in motion to manipulate the weight. and bring it back up.
Doug fir works nice for this.

That sounds like interior Douglas fir weight. Coast doug fir is about 38 lb/ ft3 (wet weight)
and about 11lb more that Western Red Cedar. That's a lot of weight on big trees with big branches when the weight is offset. Lots of veriables as when you should do what. Fir swings realy good


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## Westboastfaller

pdqdl said:


> If you are going to quote me inaccurately, don't put it inside quote marks. Using quote marks means that it is word for word, which just ain't so.


No I didn't quote you for exact word for word last week. I certainly wasn't in any way trying to distort or twist your words.
I did say if my actions or words were to bother someone I would apologize. (With in reason)
*Point taken* and for that I do apologize.


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## JTM

I had to sharpen my chain before I finished on the small 25' hickory I cut up Saturday. It was only 10" in diameter but I was cutting small pieces to split up and use on the grill. It's a PITA to split by hand, like trying to split sweet gum. I'll save everything to use for the grill. Even take the loppers to the twigs.


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## madhatte

pdqdl said:


> I have never put a saw to a Douglas fir, but the numbers say it is less flexible than either of the trees posted above. Not nearly as strong, it is also lighter and easier to crush. That lack of flexibility is probably why you guys are so worried about getting the tree to fall just right off the stump.



DF is pretty strong and tough. The concern with getting it to lay just right is mostly for big, expensive, old-growth trees, especially redwood and cedar. The second-growth stuff I usually cut is pretty easy to swing around and I worry very little about saving BF because I'm not cutting for scale. I do, however, care very much that the fibers are strong enough that my hinge will hold on long enough to get the top where I want it before the tree starts tipping.


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## northmanlogging

Just out of curiosity, compare Doug Fir to some of the eastern maples, like sugar or silver, or maybe some of the more marketed versions. 

Also compare it to a couple of oaks.

Might be surprising.


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## Westboastfaller

Just Google "wood data base.

They are all grouped. All Cedars under C
and such or just search a name of that site.

You got to look at everything. Like red oak is 14480 strength and 1,765,000
but weighs 44 lb per Sq ft dry (about 56 lb) it's stronger, not as flexible, about 18lb heavier than coast fir. Not as tall. It's mainly about offset weigh and how you cut it when it come to falling. A forward Leaning tree with thick holding wood can't advance until it breaks the back fibers (or chairs) because the fibers have nowhere to go. You have to add a vertical face and release the fibers. It's like saying the wood is flexable but how flexable is it at the jaws of the vice? Its not. The numbers don't tell the story, furthermore we don't know how or where on the tree it's tested for strength or flex? Is it an average from heart and sapwood?
that would prove to mean even less.

They are just some fun facts that you can't base an argument on in relation to falling.


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## pdqdl

Westboastfaller said:


> ...They are just some fun facts that you can't base an argument on in relation to falling.



Yes...and no. I am pretty sure that all the numbers reported in the database apply to 12% humidity kiln dried lumber. That is a far cry from the wood's condition when we come at it with a chainsaw. On the other hand, this database that I quoted earlier seems to work pretty darned good as a relative comparison for all the trees. The softer weaker lumber seems to match up very nicely with the softer weaker trees, although there may be some exceptions.


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## Gypo Logger

Gologit said:


> No grudge at all. You're not worth it. You weren't worth it then and you're definitely not worth it now.
> 
> I answered your question about gunning sticks politely and I was willing to leave it at that until you started running your mouth.
> 
> You remind me of a bratty little kid that purposely aggravates people until somebody gets tired of it and gives it back to you, thus giving you the attention you seek and seem to need so desperately. You argue and whine and try to excuse your poor behavior by claiming that you were attacked. You bring it on yourself.
> 
> Every once in awhile you show up on the F&L section, cast aspersions on the PNW loggers, pick a fight, get your butt handed to you, and then you sulk and pout and display your hurt feelings like a badge of honor. You're too well known here and nobody buys that any more.
> Aren't you tired of your behavior yet? I know most of us are.


What a worthless piece of shite you turned out to be. Beat it, you goof!


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## Gypo Logger

Gosukit got ran out on a rail when he was a moderator, and lied profusely about being a logger. He needs a good punch in the forehead. Lol. Never seen such a limp wristed mofo before or since.Gosukit would give his father a blowjob to do his mother out of a piece of tail. Lol


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## RandyMac

John, maybe you shouldn't be using aluminum tubing for your still.


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## Gypo Logger

pdqdl said:


> There is a reason you aren't a mod anymore; I'm pretty sure it had something to do with rude behavior and chasing folks out of what you considered your private domain.
> 
> Oh yes! I remember! You banned me, and the management reversed your decision when they reviewed the record (at my request). They also apologized for your actions and it wasn't too long after that you weren't a mod anymore.
> 
> It seems that you are still holding a grudge.


You're right on the money! Gosukit is the most hated wannabe logger/mod that ever joined AS. Talk about an inferiority complex! What a legacy this useless pos will take to his grave. Lol


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## Gypo Logger

I don't like fighting like this. F&L is about the love of logging and trees, so I bury the hatchet, but I won't let anybody ruin it for anybody else.
Cheers!
John


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## Gypo Logger

RandyMac said:


> John, maybe you shouldn't be using aluminum tubing for your still.


Since when were you Gosuckits bum chum?


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## madhatte

Gypo Logger said:


> You're right on the money! Gosukit is the most hated wannabe logger/mod that ever joined AS. Talk about an inferiority complex! What a legacy this useless pos will take to his grave. Lol



John, man, really? Not liking a person is one thing. I am OK with that. Impugning a person's character, though... that's a whole different level. I do believe that an apology is in order. If you're gonna make it personal, keep it personal -- via PM.


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## bitzer

How did I miss this thread blowing up?

Nobody uses a Dutchman in deciduous trees? Hahaha, that's just ridiculous. Where the hell has this guy been the last 7-8 years I've been posting pictures and videos?

Its pretty much common sense why gunning sticks would be used in huge timber. 

A little sideways on your stump isn't going to do **** for the swing of it.


I think you're all a bunch of pussies.


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## ropensaddle

JTM said:


> I've never tried it but folks that make self-bows seem to prefer it. Can look pretty interesting as a limb lamination too.


Osage is the best bow wood period it however is a bear to work with the draw knife. In self bows it is unparalleled, however: much care must be taken to follow one continuous growth ring from tip to tip and that includes knots which will be raised to follow the growth ring on the bows back! Misleading because its actually the front seen from the target! There is a reason it was highly prized by plains Indians, it would spit an arrow plumb through a buffalo. Osage bows also get stronger as they age even after the typical 2 year curing time.


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## Gypo Logger

madhatte said:


> John, man, really? Not liking a person is one thing. I am OK with that. Impugning a person's character, though... that's a whole different level. I do believe that an apology is in order. If you're gonna make it personal, keep it personal -- via PM.


Yes, you are correct, and I will apologize after Bob offers an apology to all others he banned or attacked. Lol


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## RandyMac

Gypo Logger said:


> Since when were you Gosuckits bum chum?





Gypo Logger said:


> I don't like fighting like this. F&L is about the love of logging and trees, so I bury the hatchet, but I won't let anybody ruin it for anybody else.
> Cheers!
> John



Hypocrite.


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## madhatte

Gypo Logger said:


> Yes, you are correct, and I will apologize after Bob offers an apology to all others he banned or attacked. Lol



It would be way easier for all involved if you extended the olive branch first, since we are only talking about one person and one post here. It doesn't seem at all reasonable to ask somebody to tunnel through years of interactions to attempt to negate all possible or imagined slights. Think of it as a logistical problem.


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## KiwiBro




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## Gypo Logger

Ok, let's get things straight, Bob is not a logger and never has been one. That's the bottom line. So what is the issue here? Anybody who has made a living in the woods knows that Bob hasn't. So I will thank everybody to cut through the ********. Bob the Knob is not a logger and never has been one.


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## northmanlogging

And you know this how?


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## madhatte

John, c'mon. I could just delete these comments but nobody learns anything that way. I get that you don't like the guy, but why the unsubstantiated and unwarranted attacks? Is the cabin fever getting to you? Yukon winter a bit longer than usual? Is a good scrap what you need to kill the boredom?


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## ropensaddle

madhatte said:


> No. The hickory I cut was planted as an ornamental for some reason and was damaged by an ice storm, so it was marked for removal. We don't ordinarily have them here, nor osage orange. On that project I also cut a bunch of red oak, sweetgum, and sycamore, which we also don't have here.


Very common in these parts two of those can create problems in different ways. Sweetgum hinge cannot be trusted in many situations of lean toward a home or other high value object. The only way I trust it is with rope pulled directly against the lean and cut the same. Or snubbed to fell to the side if obstruction of the snubbing rope is not possible throughout the fall! The snubbed rope in that scenario will act as my hinge when the hinge fails. Red oak is our biggest chair tree and steps to prevent the chair are taken like in this fell. I know it is not a logging fell but you might see the similarities and difficulties in urban felling where there are no whoops or your ruint!


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## madhatte

I found the red oak I cut here to behave on the stump much better than expected. The sweetgum was definitely more brittle and prone to breaking its hinge. The sycamore, with its short, heavy, wet fibers was my least favorite and least predictable. That tree doesn't seem to want to be swung at all in any direction. I imagine that if I had more experience with these species I'd learn their tricks, but with what limited trigger time I have, that's what I was able to observe.


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## ropensaddle

madhatte said:


> I found the red oak I cut here to behave on the stump much better than expected. The sweetgum was definitely more brittle and prone to breaking its hinge. The sycamore, with its short, heavy, wet fibers was my least favorite and least predictable. That tree doesn't seem to want to be swung at all in any direction. I imagine that if I had more experience with these species I'd learn their tricks, but with what limited trigger time I have, that's what I was able to observe.


Yes red oak is ok 80% of the time until it chairs splits then its a cranky old fart. Gums only worry is the hinge and sycamore is a cuss word to all that cut trees lol I just sneezed thinking of it


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## pdqdl

Sycamore is ok in my book.

C'mon Rope, tell him why you really hate sycamore. As I recall, you get the itchy-sneezies real bad on those, don't you? An awful lot of other folks do too.

For those not familiar with the tree: they throw zillions of airborn fibers into the air when you cut them up. Some people seem to be allergic to them, others just feel like they have been working with fiberglass insulation. Either way, they are not usually a very popular tree among those that use a chainsaw on them. Fortunately, I seem to be exempt from plant irritations of any sort, although I'm not real fond of thorny honeylocust. I kinda hate pruning anything with thorns.


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## Gypo Logger

Sorry everyone, I've been a bit mouthy lately.
I think it's the brain damage I sustained when I kissed that tree.


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## madhatte

Gypo Logger said:


> Sorry everyone, I've been a bit mouthy lately.



Just cool it, and maybe PM an apology or two? It's all I ask.


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## KiwiBro

Gypo Logger said:


> Sorry everyone, I've been a bit mouthy lately.
> I think it's the brain damage I sustained when I kissed that tree.


OPRAH confessional special edition at 11.


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## bnmc98

It takes a bigger man to admit that he has done something wrong than one to hold onto that he has done nothing wrong.
Much respect.


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## Gypo Logger

Leave it to KiwiBro to iron things out.
Cheers Bro!


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## KiwiBro

No wuck'n forries bro


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## Gypo Logger

I just realized I'm dumber than a sack of hammers.
I live off the grid and just came home in the dark.
So I filled up my Honda generator with gas, but must have spilled some, cause couldnt tell if the on/off switch was on or off, so I lit my bic lighter like an idiot. All facial hair ablaze and generator on fire. Three minutes before I got it blown out,
But miraculously the generator still works, but you should see my face. I don't really give a damn anymore, I just want to listen to rock and roll music, drink some home brew and cut a bit of wood.
It's just a nice feeling when it's minus 29 outside and it's 62 degrees here in my shack and spring is just around the corner.
And by the way, for some unknown reason all woman rock!


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## KiwiBro

Ha. A mid-Winter tan.


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## ropensaddle

pdqdl said:


> Sycamore is ok in my book.
> 
> C'mon Rope, tell him why you really hate sycamore. As I recall, you get the itchy-sneezies real bad on those, don't you? An awful lot of other folks do too.
> 
> For those not familiar with the tree: they throw zillions of airborn fibers into the air when you cut them up. Some people seem to be allergic to them, others just feel like they have been working with fiberglass insulation. Either way, they are not usually a very popular tree among those that use a chainsaw on them. Fortunately, I seem to be exempt from plant irritations of any sort, although I'm not real fond of thorny honeylocust. I kinda hate pruning anything with thorns.


I'm not allergic to anything but when chipping that stuff everyone I know gags, including myself!


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## pdqdl

Not me! I wasn't even aware that the rest of the tree chipping world hated them until I came to this website.


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## madhatte

I didn't have any allergy issues with it, just basic mechanics. Might be because I was cutting on midwinter days where the temperature barely broke freezing and there were no leaves or anything on the trees.


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## Bwildered

Gypo Logger said:


> I just realized I'm dumber than a sack of hammers.
> I live off the grid and just came home in the dark.
> So I filled up my Honda generator with gas, but must have spilled some, cause couldnt tell if the on/off switch was on or off, so I lit my bic lighter like an idiot. All facial hair ablaze and generator on fire. Three minutes before I got it blown out,
> But miraculously the generator still works, but you should see my face. I don't really give a damn anymore, I just want to listen to rock and roll music, drink some home brew and cut a bit of wood.
> It's just a nice feeling when it's minus 29 outside and it's 62 degrees here in my shack and spring is just around the corner.
> And by the way, for some unknown reason all woman rock!


No wonder non smokers live longer!


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## pdqdl

madhatte said:


> I didn't have any allergy issues with it, just basic mechanics. Might be because I was cutting on midwinter days where the temperature barely broke freezing and there were no leaves or anything on the trees.



Sawdust off a sycamore isn't so bad; it's when you put the branches through a chipper that they get real irritating.


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## madhatte

Ah, makes sense, we just tossed the limbs in a pile and let the loader handle the mess. I bucked to bucket-length and moved on and somebody else did the limb-tossing.


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## rwoods

Gypo Logger said:


> I just realized I'm dumber than a sack of hammers.
> I live off the grid and just came home in the dark.
> So I filled up my Honda generator with gas, but must have spilled some, cause couldnt tell if the on/off switch was on or off, so I lit my bic lighter like an idiot. All facial hair ablaze and generator on fire. Three minutes before I got it blown out,
> But miraculously the generator still works, but you should see my face. I don't really give a damn anymore, I just want to listen to rock and roll music, drink some home brew and cut a bit of wood.
> It's just a nice feeling when it's minus 29 outside and it's 62 degrees here in my shack and spring is just around the corner.
> And by the way, for some unknown reason all woman rock!



Beards usually grow back. Just wish it were the same for the top. Anyway, gave you didn't get burned badly. Ron


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