# Should this have been a crane removal?



## ChipDoogle (Dec 12, 2009)

I recently posted some pics of this tree trying to determine the species. Have come to the conclusion thru the majority of your responses that it is an elm. After seeing some of the crane removal pics on here, and especially that this tree was supposedly dead for 7 years prior to removal I am thinking that crane out is the route I should have took. The tree was approxiamtely 100' tall. I used a 36,000 lb 80' Articulating lift to work from, as the limbs were quite dead towards the top. My questions are A. Should this have been craned out? B. If it were craned out, would you climb it, or work from a lift to make the rigging attachemts and cuts? C. And can you give me any idea what a job like this should go for, as I lost money doing it at $2,500 leaving the stump and doing some minor trimming on a few other trees on the property. This was my largest most hazardous removal so far, I am new and learning so any feedback would help. Here are links for pics and video.
Thanks :newbie:

Pics http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...iewPicture&friendID=420516551&albumId=1368380

Videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em3wS3xXLcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KF9jc9Ylds


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## TreEmergencyB (Dec 12, 2009)

if its down nothing or no body got broke....no crane needed...


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## fishercat (Dec 12, 2009)

*i would have probably climbed it.*

i would have whacked it with a hatchet as i went.

i cannot say i would have rigged of it but i wasn't there.

crane would have been the safest and fastest way to get it down without a doubt.it always is no matter what but sometimes you can't get the crane in there or they can't afford it.


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## treemandan (Dec 12, 2009)

Yeah it looked like you really had to be careful on that one. I guess the lift took care of you being safe and not putting yourself in needless danger. I think the HO should be fined for leaving a hazzard like that for so long. I mean ,hell, they fine you if your grass gets over a foot high but a big dead tree that could hurt someone? Oh that's fine, just find a cheap price to have it removed at leisure.
That stick was no joke and I wopuld have felt better on the boom lift rather than swing them brittle limbs over my head with a crane and having no place to duck. I think you handled it the best way. Hell, try to pick a crane piece on that and the butt will break off on ruin your helmet.


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## Tree Pig (Dec 12, 2009)

TreEmergencyB said:


> if its down nothing or no body got broke....no crane needed...



+1 :agree2:


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## treemandan (Dec 12, 2009)

I wonder if it still would have been " an act of God" if it fell and went through the house.


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## tomtrees58 (Dec 12, 2009)

your cuts are to big small is better on a tree like that a Crane removal gos 3000 to 5000 we do them all the time and yes we would have had one on that tom trees:smoking:


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## fishercat (Dec 12, 2009)

*that's insane!*



tomtrees58 said:


> your cuts are to big small is better on a tree like that a Crane removal gos 3000 to 5000 we do them all the time and yes we would have had one on that tom trees:smoking:



i know it's expensive down there but that is ridiculous!


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## Rftreeman (Dec 13, 2009)

TreEmergencyB said:


> if its down nothing or no body got broke....no crane needed...



:agree2:

would have been climbed and rigged most likely but I would have to put an eye on it to be sure and I would have made decent money at $2500, that lift must have cost a fortune to rent..


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## tomtrees58 (Dec 13, 2009)

fishercat said:


> i know it's expensive down there but that is ridiculous!



well rental is $1100.00 a day 5 men +1800.00 dumping clean up the next day it add up and thats if you can do it in 1 day some times its 2 tom trees


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## ChipDoogle (Dec 13, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> your cuts are to big small is better on a tree like that a Crane removal gos 3000 to 5000 we do them all the time and yes we would have had one on that tom trees:smoking:



The cut in the video link was probably the largest one we took besides the thick pieces we took last. Most were smaller than that.


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## ChipDoogle (Dec 13, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yeah it looked like you really had to be careful on that one. I guess the lift took care of you being safe and not putting yourself in needless danger. I think the HO should be fined for leaving a hazzard like that for so long. I mean ,hell, they fine you if your grass gets over a foot high but a big dead tree that could hurt someone? Oh that's fine, just find a cheap price to have it removed at leisure.
> That stick was no joke and I wopuld have felt better on the boom lift rather than swing them brittle limbs over my head with a crane and having no place to duck. I think you handled it the best way. Hell, try to pick a crane piece on that and the butt will break off on ruin your helmet.



Yeah, it was a rental property to top it off, the company that owned it had money, they were just trying to find somebody to do it for nothing. They turned down another guy who was around 2,200 because some guy said over the phone he would do it for 800. When he got out there, he said :censored: that, and didn't even want to attempt the job.


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## treemandan (Dec 13, 2009)

ChipDoogle said:


> Yeah, it was a rental property to top it off, the company that owned it had money, they were just trying to find somebody to do it for nothing. They turned down another guy who was around 2,200 because some guy said over the phone he would do it for 800. When he got out there, he said :censored: that, and didn't even want to attempt the job.



Neglect, if you can prove it was someone else's then you are in the clear. That is what I tell people with trees like that; if there is some damage done by a limb breaking off and hitting the roof its not my fault because of the neglect to remove the tree when it was safer.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 13, 2009)

Did you do that to the roof? Did it have something to do with the canned champagne on the end of the log? 

Anyway, from the pics I'd say $2500 was a fair price, and it does look climbable, a crane would have made the job go twice as fast and you probably would have been more profitable for it. It's hard to actually assess the situation with pictures over the internet so don't take what I said the wrong way.


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## treevet (Dec 13, 2009)

Just a couple of thoughts....The cut in the video where the pulley is shown. You missed your notch with the back cut by a mile didn't you? You had way too much shock load when you let that piece go. Why not put the pulley on the limb below the cut? Also wasn't that garage all busted up on the roof?

On a takedown like that it is nice to have BOTH a crane and a lift truck if they can fit. If you use just the crane you have to be attached to the tree so if it is a choice of one or the other you made the right choice with the lift truck.

When you gotta go cheapo because of the owner on a tree like that it is a good strategic move to pass in the future. If you gonna lose money on a job do it on one with little liability and not so difficult and dangerous.


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## ChipDoogle (Dec 13, 2009)

treevet said:


> Just a couple of thoughts....The cut in the video where the pulley is shown. You missed your notch with the back cut by a mile didn't you? You had way too much shock load when you let that piece go. Why not put the pulley on the limb below the cut? Also wasn't that garage all busted up on the roof?
> 
> On a takedown like that it is nice to have BOTH a crane and a lift truck if they can fit. If you use just the crane you have to be attached to the tree so if it is a choice of one or the other you made the right choice with the lift truck.
> 
> When you gotta go cheapo because of the owner on a tree like that it is a good strategic move to pass in the future. If you gonna lose money on a job do it on one with little liability and not so difficult and dangerous.



Yeah the roof got messed up on the edge from pieces breaking when they were swung. I fixed it in a couple hours. They did not wanna pay extra for me to cover the roof with a 2x6's with plywood on top,( A SHIELD) Plus there was already a couple dozen holes quarter to baseball size in the shingles from the deadwood shedding prior to removal. The shockloading was kept to a minimum, plus that was brandnew 7/8 double braid 23k lb, which even with shockloading I don't think I got close to even 30% of the tensile. Anyways what in the hell is canned champange lol?


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## ChipDoogle (Dec 13, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Did you do that to the roof? Did it have something to do with the canned champagne on the end of the log?
> 
> Anyway, from the pics I'd say $2500 was a fair price, and it does look climbable, a crane would have made the job go twice as fast and you probably would have been more profitable for it. It's hard to actually assess the situation with pictures over the internet so don't take what I said the wrong way.



See post above, and what in the hell is canned champange lol?


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## treevet (Dec 13, 2009)

beer would be my guess


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## treevet (Dec 13, 2009)

ChipDoogle said:


> shockloading was kept to a minimum, plus that was brandnew 7/8 double braid 23k lb, which even with shockloading I don't think I got close to even 30% of the tensile.



Just a little advice since this is Arb 101....shockloading of that type severely degrades the line (Very expensive line I might add) and also you would be amazed how the drop of a piece increases the weight of it the farther it falls. 
Also the attachments, whatever they be, hitch, knot etc. further reduces the WL of the line. In addition this may be what caused the damage to the roof (splatter).

Good luck in future tho, you appear to have some potential in this business.


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## ddhlakebound (Dec 13, 2009)

ChipDoogle said:


> The shockloading was kept to a minimum, plus that was brandnew 7/8 double braid 23k lb, which even with shockloading I don't think I got close to even 30% of the tensile. Anyways what in the hell is canned champange lol?



23k lb rope, heavy duty rigging gear. Nice. I'm curious as to what that tree was rated at???

Looks to me like the ring shake on the end of the butt log shows punky heartwood that added little or nothing to tree strength. Combine that with the exterior notches cut to hold the porty sling, and it doesn't look to me like you had much margin on what the tree could support. 

With thanks to The Tree Spyder, I'd have been trying to minimize shock loading with a lighter line with more stretch. The heavier you go on rope, the greater the peak load on the stem is. I don't think breaking the rope was ever a worry, breaking the tree.....well, I'd have been thinking on that with every cut. 

Canned champagne refers to the case of Miller Lite sitting on the log. Helps make ya look Extra-Pro.

Edit: After going back and looking again, the ring shake is present, but the heartwood looks more solid that I originally stated. Still good to always keep in mind the piece of the system which does not have a rating.


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## treevet (Dec 13, 2009)

Looked like in some of the still pictures he had the tree roped together strategically like cables which I do often in beat trees like that for self preservation.


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## tree MDS (Dec 13, 2009)

I dont know if you guys saw the other thread where he didnt know what kind of tree it was or not...but if it were me cutting a tree that dead, I would damn sure know what :censored:ing kind of tree it was before going to work on it! big dif between elm and cottonwood.


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## treevet (Dec 13, 2009)

point well taken mds


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## WalterTreeCare (Dec 13, 2009)

anytime i gotta tip tie, i always butt tie as well. Otherwise youre gonna see a nasty shockload and possibly get hurt. I know somebody that lost his eye because of freefalling tip ties. That way you can lower your piece down slowly and have complete control over the piece. Looks like a nasty removal brother, good to see all is well and unhurt.


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## tree MDS (Dec 13, 2009)

WalterTreeCare said:


> anytime i gotta tip tie, i always butt tie as well. Otherwise youre gonna see a nasty shockload and possibly get hurt. I know somebody that lost his eye because of freefalling tip ties. That way you can lower your piece down slowly and have complete control over the piece. Looks like a nasty removal brother, good to see all is well and unhurt.



Sounds like someone that actually knows how to cut a tree for a change!

Welcome to AS man, I'll get ya some more rep goin.


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## treevet (Dec 13, 2009)

WalterTreeCare said:


> anytime i gotta tip tie, i always butt tie as well. Otherwise youre gonna see a nasty shockload and possibly get hurt. I know somebody that lost his eye because of freefalling tip ties. That way you can lower your piece down slowly and have complete control over the piece. Looks like a nasty removal brother, good to see all is well and unhurt.


Welcome WTC Here is a little green under your name


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## ChipDoogle (Dec 13, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I dont know if you guys saw the other thread where he didnt know what kind of tree it was or not...but if it were me cutting a tree that dead, I would damn sure know what :censored:ing kind of tree it was before going to work on it! big dif between elm and cottonwood.



I knew It wasn't cottowood from the bark, there were several large cottonwood there, and the bark was noticably different. I can tell by the leaves, but without, I am still learning. I did core drill the thing in several places and was solid, So not sure what else one would do as far as checking tree's stability. When you say quite a bit difference between cottonwood and elm, are you referring to how much water the cottonwood holds there for being lighter and breaking easier than elm once dried out?


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## ChipDoogle (Dec 13, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> 23k lb rope, heavy duty rigging gear. Nice. I'm curious as to what that tree was rated at???
> 
> Looks to me like the ring shake on the end of the butt log shows punky heartwood that added little or nothing to tree strength. Combine that with the exterior notches cut to hold the porty sling, and it doesn't look to me like you had much margin on what the tree could support.
> 
> ...



Tree spyder, You mean a spyder sling? for tying both ends off? I need to get one of those def looks handy. Yeah I figured out the canned champagne, the lady across the street bought that for the guys for bringing her firewood, I havn't had me a drink in awhile, lets just say I liked the stuff a little too much. 

Also What is ring shake? And how is connected to heartwood? Anyways wanna thank all you guys for your feedback, like I said I am new and learning and trying to learn as much as I can.


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## ddhlakebound (Dec 13, 2009)

ChipDoogle said:


> Tree spyder, You mean a spyder sling? for tying both ends off? I need to get one of those def looks handy. Yeah I figured out the canned champagne, the lady across the street bought that for the guys for bringing her firewood, I havn't had me a drink in awhile, lets just say I liked the stuff a little too much.
> 
> Also What is ring shake? And how is connected to heartwood? Anyways wanna thank all you guys for your feedback, like I said I am new and learning and trying to learn as much as I can.



The Tree Spyder is a guy who posts here. He's VERY good at understanding and using the forces we create with trees, ropes, and chainsaws. You can learn alot spending some time on his website, I think it's "mytreelessons.com"

You don't really need to buy a spider rig in order to make use of one....I prussic the secondary line onto the main rigging line, and get a tip and butt tie on one rope for horizontal limbs over targets. (Very important to make sure that prussic connection is tied, dressed, set, and has a good bite on the mainline. You DON'T want it slipping) Having a butt tie on a second rope would have helped alot, as noted earlier by Walter, probably better than the spider rig. 

Ring shake is where the separation is between the wood following the rings. It's a structural defect, but I don't know the degree that it weakens the tree. 

I'm kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned that the block should have been higher. Looks like it was as high as the lift could get it, and that's where it went. Would have made for less shock loading than the way it was too, IMHO.


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## treemandan (Dec 13, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I dont know if you guys saw the other thread where he didnt know what kind of tree it was or not...but if it were me cutting a tree that dead, I would damn sure know what :censored:ing kind of tree it was before going to work on it! big dif between elm and cottonwood.



I disagree. I would think a man with good common sense could look and fell the wood and know what he is working with without actually knowing the species.

But I don't disagree wholeheartedly.


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## outofmytree (Dec 14, 2009)

Interesting job. As I looked over first the pictures and then the video I had a list of things to pick....... and then I remembered a few dodgy jobs I did early on and was so glad I DIDNT take pictures of. 

Chip I think you did right working from a platform. Whether or not anyone else would have done that is moot. It was your job and your choice and most importantly, your life. A crane almost always speeds up a job and always costs more profit. The question is do you have more time or more jobs. If you have way to much work then use a crane. If you have way to much time then don't.

There are 2 kinds of treemen IMO. Those that have broken stuff and those that lie about it. I like your honesty.


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## Tree Pig (Dec 14, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> If you have way to much work then use a crane. If you have way to much time then don't.
> .



Now thats a good way to look at it


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## ropensaddle (Dec 14, 2009)

I probably would have climbed it but hard to say from a picture. Elm is strong even dead to a degree I would of took limbs out small to avoid any shock on the stem. I never hit a roof with anything larger than a pine cone or twigs though. You got it down and you were there and are safe,if the home owner is happy and you made some coin all is good. Yes 100 foot lift,I use my 60 foot many times for a ladder lol, It helps but many times at full height your still looking at a small tree above you. I love the jobs where mine reaches the whole canopy allowing cut and chuck into the bed of my mack grapple truck means no raking stacking so when done with limbs and medium wood drop logs load with grapple and pay da man lol


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## highasatree (Dec 14, 2009)

I believe you made the right choice on renting the lift and piecing it down. Being up in a tall dead Elm scares me.
Heres a couple of pics of Poplars I've removed with a lift.


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