# Climber/Owner making $4000 a year



## Tree&Stump (Apr 26, 2013)

Yes, that's what I said. 

I know a landscaper that gives me tree jobs for commission. He underbid one this week by $600-$1100, and I told the HO that I had to add $600 to his price. Well the neighbor who was in the deal too called the landscaper, and he complained about the price raise. The first thing this morning the landscaper says to me is he's giving the job to another guy who hasn't even taken down trees that big in his life. Then he said I'm out of deal because I raised the price. 1 hour later the small time tree hack texts me he took the job at the original price, and he wants to know if I can climb for him. That means I bring my whole business over there and handle the job for him. Ordinarily I would gladly help him, but I told him that he's bothering me by doing what he did, and I wouldn't be climbing on that job. No landscaper and a hack are going to get me going while they are tearing down the value of the tree service profession. 

I organized a bunch of info for the client, and I went over there again to educate the two HOs. I explained a few things without getting out all of my points because the friendly hack was already there working. He needs to work for an arborist first before he can learn what an arborist knows. 

I told the HOs that my price is not any lower. It's higher if they decide they need a professional climbing arborist to handle things. As I was leaving I told that hack what a hack for working for nothing while the rest of us around here are trying to make a living on this profession. He said the job would have just been lost then, and I told him they have to save up to get what they need done the right way. Now because he took the job for such a low price, he's going to go out of business, and I have to suffer as well. 

The point here is that the guy is doing 3-5 days of work for about $150-$200. He has a 1/4 ton pickup with camper shell on and a 10' x 2' boat trailer to haul 11-12 tons of brush (no chipper). In one move he brought the profession of climber/owner down to a $4000 yearly income.

What would you have done?


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## treemandan (Apr 26, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Yes, that's what I said.
> 
> I know a landscaper that gives me tree jobs for commission. He underbid one this week by $600-$1100, and I told the HO that I had to add $600 to his price. Well the neighbor who was in the deal too called the landscaper, and he complained about the price raise. The first thing this morning the landscaper says to me is he's giving the job to another guy who hasn't even taken down trees that big in his life. Then he said I'm out of deal because I raised the price. 1 hour later the small time tree hack texts me he took the job at the original price, and he wants to know if I can climb for him. That means I bring my whole business over there and handle the job for him. Ordinarily I would gladly help him, but I told him that he's bothering me by doing what he did, and I wouldn't be climbing on that job. No landscaper and a hack are going to get me going while they are tearing down the value of the tree service profession.
> 
> ...



I am to old and tired to be trying to convert homeowners, play the " I got the job but will you do it" game or get invloved with landscraper's shennanigans but I would have done that job with a 5 x 4 jet ski trailer and an 1982 Volkswagon Cabriolet.


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 26, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Yes, that's what I said.
> 
> I know a landscaper that gives me tree jobs for commission. He underbid one this week by $600-$1100, and I told the HO that I had to add $600 to his price. Well the neighbor who was in the deal too called the landscaper, and he complained about the price raise. The first thing this morning the landscaper says to me is he's giving the job to another guy who hasn't even taken down trees that big in his life. Then he said I'm out of deal because I raised the price. 1 hour later the small time tree hack texts me he took the job at the original price, and he wants to know if I can climb for him. That means I bring my whole business over there and handle the job for him. Ordinarily I would gladly help him, but I told him that he's bothering me by doing what he did, and I wouldn't be climbing on that job. No landscaper and a hack are going to get me going while they are tearing down the value of the tree service profession.
> 
> ...



Well, no offense, but first off I would have never talked money with the HO if I was a sub. I would have gobe back to the landscaper and had the money talk with him.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 26, 2013)

Sounds like you did the right thing IMHO.
I have good relationships with a few competitors and have ended up doing some of the work on a job where I was higher by a few bucks.When It's a few bucks ,no use crying over spilled milk,especially if I end up with a little of the action and vise versa.#### happens,machines go down ,parts get delayed.We all try to help one another when we can.But to help some hack whos sole purpose is to lowball every job they get a hold of.NO WAY.You underbid it ,YOU suffer thru trying to figure out how to get it done yourself.If I am going to work for nothing ,then that is what I 'll do,literally,WFN .I get more satisfaction from helping ,then some measly chump change. But this is reserved for family and friends,not hacks dragging me down to their level.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 26, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Well, no offense, but first off I would have never talked money with the HO if I was a sub. I would have gobe back to the landscaper and had the money talk with him.



I usually get better results after the fact than before the fact. Now that it's actually happening and not just hear say anymore, I'm going to have a discussion with him about this problem to put things right side up from now on. He'll either get on board, or he'll just keep sucking the life out of his new hack until he goes out of business.


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## mckeetree (Apr 26, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Yes, that's what I said.
> 
> I know a landscaper that gives me tree jobs for commission. He underbid one this week by $600-$1100, and I told the HO that I had to add $600 to his price. Well the neighbor who was in the deal too called the landscaper, and he complained about the price raise. The first thing this morning the landscaper says to me is he's giving the job to another guy who hasn't even taken down trees that big in his life. Then he said I'm out of deal because I raised the price. 1 hour later the small time tree hack texts me he took the job at the original price, and he wants to know if I can climb for him. That means I bring my whole business over there and handle the job for him. Ordinarily I would gladly help him, but I told him that he's bothering me by doing what he did, and I wouldn't be climbing on that job. No landscaper and a hack are going to get me going while they are tearing down the value of the tree service profession.
> 
> ...





"Maybe close by"...huh. You are one of the new guys on here that I take everything they post with a grain of salt. So...whatever.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 27, 2013)

So the landscaper says that "you just have to get in there, and get out of there for the price, or they'll just go and get someone else to get it done for cheap." And "there's too many tree services."


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## magictoad (Apr 27, 2013)

You should have just said to the landscaper, sorry i can not do it for the price.
Do you rely on the income you get from the landscaper if not you have nothing to loose, just walk away.


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## ducaticorse (Apr 27, 2013)

I really dont understand why you would have agreed to do the work then think it was at all appropriate to change the agreed upon price. You are also acting in the capacity of a subcontractor, and you had zero business trying to renegotiate with the HO. So in short, yes, walking away from the job was the right thing to do, but you did it ass backwards. It is clear to me that both your contractor AND yourself have much to learn about this business. It's not all about just doing the actual cutting.


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## treemandan (Apr 27, 2013)

One shouldn't just run out to do a job that one hasn't inspected and approved. Who is the hack now?


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## imagineero (Apr 27, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Yes, that's what I said.
> That means I bring my whole business over there and handle the job for him.



What is your whole business? From what I recall, you don't have a truck or chipper, or any staff, or a website. Are you licensed and insured/ISA or other certification? Is the business just you and a couple saws, a harness, a rope and some spurs? 

Shaun


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## chief116 (Apr 27, 2013)

I believe that you are an idiot.

You arrived at a job you had never looked at for a price you didn't set.

You went over the the head of the guy giving you work and alienated him. Smooth move biting the hand that feeds you.

How hard would a phone call to the landscaper about it have possibly been? "hey mac, can't do it for that money.(insert $) is what I need to make for the day with my equipment. Come over and i'll point out how and why its going to take (X amount of time)"

That guy that ate the job and did the work just landed himself your work. Yay for you.


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## Oak Savanna (Apr 27, 2013)

Why is a landscaper pricing tree work for you? Do you price lawns for him? I am an owner operator of a tree company and we do lots of work for local landscapers. They either give their customer my contact info and they deal with me direct, or they arrange to meet me at the job, go over it with me, I tell them what I need for it and they will tell the home owner then they can make a little off it too. 95% of the time they get their client to call me or they have even taken me over there and introduced me to the home owner and let me take it from there. Letting other people price tree work for you when they don't have a clue what it takes to do the job or what YOUR operating costs are is just stupid in my opinion. I would walk away from that whole s#it show if I were you and let someone else do it. If you can't get what you need out of it then why worry about it and lose money?! Id cross that one off the list and be onto the next one. Just my 2 cents.


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## millbilly (Apr 27, 2013)

12 tons of brush you say? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm gotta make you wonder.


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 27, 2013)

millbilly said:


> 12 tons of brush you say? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm gotta make you wonder.



That is a wee bit of brush now, isn't it?


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## ducaticorse (Apr 27, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> That is a wee bit of brush now, isn't it?



What, you don't haul 24000lbs of brush from your average $300 trim job?????


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 27, 2013)

This is Texas, we just burn it in the back 40


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## flushcut (Apr 27, 2013)

ducaticorse said:


> What, you don't haul 24000lbs of brush from your average $300 trim job?????



Comon it's only 48 yards chipped. I think I get the much out of an apple tree :crazy1: 
This topic has low ballin hackery written all over it. I work for a few scapers and there is no way in hell I let them bid it without me being there.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

ducaticorse said:


> I really dont understand why you would have agreed to do the work then think it was at all appropriate to change the agreed upon price. You are also acting in the capacity of a subcontractor, and you had zero business trying to renegotiate with the HO. So in short, yes, walking away from the job was the right thing to do, but you did it ass backwards. It is clear to me that both your contractor AND yourself have much to learn about this business. It's not all about just doing the actual cutting.




Very true. At the same time I was thinking I'd fix things because obviously everyone else involved had no idea what was involved in the job.


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## ducaticorse (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Very true. At the same time I was thinking I'd fix things because obviously everyone else involved had no idea what was involved in the job.



Im assuming you have a few years experience doing the climbing, but little to no years running an actual business. That is ok, and making decisions like the ones you did is called "learning the hard way". This works for some, but it would behoove you from here on out to ask advice of a mentor or maybe even here before you go put your foot in your mouth again, making yourself look like a total jack ass, (which you did in this case).


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

It's never been a problem for the guy to bid jobs except (now that I think about it) only with the larger tree jobs. I'll just take the advice, and say I'll need to be there to make the bids on large jobs, so we're making money. 

I stopped by after a job of my own to see how the other guy was doing. It's hard to hold in my chuckles right now. He had the tree half down, and he was using a wood chipper on the front lawn the size of a moving box. It chips into a bag, and then he dumps the bag into his 1/4 ton pick up with a camper shell. It looks like he'll be into it for 4-5 days like I said. My bid was to have the tree gone by lunch, and grind stump all in one day. I need to ask him how slave labor is working out with the new business and all. His ground worker who hasn't touched bark with work gloves before in his life will make more money on this than he will. The laughter is hard to contain.


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## millbilly (Apr 28, 2013)

come on he made a typo, he meant 1 to 2 tons.


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## millbilly (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> It's never been a problem for the guy to bid jobs except (now that I think about it) only with the larger tree jobs. I'll just take the advice, and say I'll need to be there to make the bids on large jobs, so we're making money.
> 
> I stopped by after a job of my own to see how the other guy was doing. It's hard to hold in my chuckles right now. He had the tree half down, and he was using a wood chipper on the front lawn the size of a moving box. It chips into a bag, and then he dumps the bag into his 1/4 ton pick up with a camper shell. It looks like he'll be into it for 4-5 days like I said. My bid was to have the tree gone by lunch, and grind stump all in one day. I need to ask him how slave labor is working out with the new business and all. His ground worker who hasn't touched bark with work gloves before in his life will make more money on this than he will. The laughter is hard to contain.



Dude just stop, your as fake as the day is long. Now your going to do the job in half a day, and the guy under bid it by $600/ $1000.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

ducaticorse said:


> Im assuming you have a few years experience doing the climbing, but little to no years running an actual business. That is ok, and making decisions like the ones you did is called "learning the hard way". This works for some, but it would behoove you from here on out to ask advice of a mentor or maybe even here before you go put your foot in your mouth again, making yourself look like a total jack ass, (which you did in this case).



It's not that bad at all. I'll just point it out to him that I need to bid large tree jobs because he cannot. That will work. And that will work for any other landscrapper in the future.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

millbilly said:


> Dude just stop, your as fake as the day is long. Now your going to do the job in half a day, and the guy under bid it by $600/ $1000.



Ya, it's fine. The problem is solved.


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## imagineero (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Very true. At the same time I was thinking I'd put my foot in it because obviously everyone else involved had no idea what was involved in the job and neither did I. They'd never know I was talking crap.



Fixed it for you.

No offense mate, but all your posts scream of no experience. You may have the makings of a good climber, but you clearly need more experience. Get yourself a job working for a decent company, and put in your time. Learn how to climb, rig, and cut. Learn how to efficiently cleanup a job. It's the only way you'll ever get anywhere, or make any money. The short route you've taken leads only to ruin; of yourself, and of our industry. Do your own thing on the side with small jobs in the mean time, for sure. Try to learn from the people around you about how to get the job done, as well as how to quote. Maybe your new boss will cut you a break and come chip for you. Once you've covered all the bases, save up your money and get yourself a truck and chipper, workers comp, liability, vehicle insurance, advertising, and a groundie. 

Then you can come on here and ##### just like the others about how hacks have brought the industry down and there's no money to be made. Or you can pull your finger out, run your show professionally and make decent money. Either way I don't really care, but I don't want to read another ridiculous post from you about possibly winning a job involving a crane and 10 trucks or whatever. I'd reply to stuff like that constructively if it was in 101, but here I just want to burn your ass. I can't stand posts about hacks from real pros as it is, I'm certainly not going to put up with stuff like that from actual hacks.

In the mean time, please confine yourself to the 101 forum, so that we don't have to. You'll get more helpful answers there, even from me. This forum is for experienced tree climbers. We never give out any good advice in this forum anyway.

Shaun


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## mckeetree (Apr 28, 2013)

imagineero said:


> In the mean time, please confine yourself to the 101 forum
> 
> Shaun




Or the I'm just making #### up forum. Do we have one of those?


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## Gologit (Apr 28, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Or the I'm just making #### up forum. Do we have one of those?



No, but maybe we should. You guys have been real patient with the OP but patience has a limit.

I'll move this to 101.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

I won't argue even a little, and I definitely don't know how I could possibly get shoved down to here. This day is starting off poorly.


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## imagineero (Apr 28, 2013)

[video=youtube;sE1huPYerp0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE1huPYerp0[/video]


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## Gologit (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> I won't argue even a little, and I definitely don't know how I could possibly get shoved down to here. This day is starting off poorly.



Your thread was moved here because this is the place for people who are relatively new to your profession.

It's obvious from your posts that you need help and advice. You also need to start listening to what these guys are telling you. If you added up all the years of experience from all the people who have replied to this thread so far you'd know that their advice is based on sound reasoning. 

They might not be the most tactful bunch of people but tact isn't really necessary in this case. Ask your questions, listen to what they tell you, and use it to your own benefit. Or not...your choice entirely.

But no more BS, okay?


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

What don't you understand about a 10 ton tree removal and some extra stuff to go with it?


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> What don't you understand about a 10 ton tree removal and some extra stuff to go with it?



Ok, I'll waste a little more time here. Stumpie, it has nothing to do with the job, it's how you handled it. It's not entirely clear to me from your posts whether you were subbing for the landscaper or whether he was birddogging for ya, and it doesn't really matter. The instant you showed up and started renegotiating with the homeowner you lost all credibility in their eyes, and so did your sub/birddog. Sounds like he tried to salvage the job with another sub. I am assuming since he is a landscaper these were people he had had prior bsiness relationships with. Look at it through his eyes, and the Homeowners. You show up, and start renegotiating what they thought was a done deal. Looks like a classic bait and switch. Then, you don't just quietly walk away, you show back up while the other guy is doing the job and start slandering him. Ok, he's a hack, and the landscaper's an idiot, maybe, but in the homeowner's eyes you're the one showing your ass. This isn't about treework, this is business 101.


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## HuskStihl (Apr 28, 2013)

Hey Jolly, I drove thru bastrop today for the first time since the fire (fahr). Looks like you cleaned it up pretty good. Nice country, too


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 28, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> this is business 101.



That's easy enough to agree with. What I'm asking though is how does "12 tons" get confusing for anyone? And is the fact that I spelled out exactly that I definitely checked the job over first before going to any job ready to work get confused with not checking the job first? 

My point of view is clear enough to me. This is now the "I'm an AS dumpling" thing instead of a place to ask people that know anything about my specific occupation my questions, and now this is a misplaced business 101 thread now. I have AS admin explaining to me why I'm shoved on down to this forum was because I was posting BS about "12 tons of brush," and I was talking about not "going to check a tree job out before agreeing to do it." That is the actually why the thread has been moved. The reason was not because this is just a business 101 thread now.

Oh and then there is somebody else passionately describing me as a beginner hack like I don't even know what a rope can be used for in arboriculture. 

Thanks for the response. I should also mention it was a sappy day? No complaints here.


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 28, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Hey Jolly, I drove thru bastrop today for the first time since the fire (fahr). Looks like you cleaned it up pretty good. Nice country, too



I don't know if I ever want to work another fire, those first three months were miserable, worse than Ike. I need to update my profile, spent the spring working a pipeline contract in Houston, and now I'm up in Georgetown kickin back and doin a little contract climbing. I kind of like it up here, not sure if I'm gonna head back to Bastrop or not. It's now one of those towns where one of my exes lives in Texas, LOL.


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## Youngbuck20 (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Oh and then there is somebody else passionately describing me as a beginner hack like I don't even know what a rope can be used for in arborculture.



*Arboriculture.


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## HuskStihl (Apr 28, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I don't know if I ever want to work another fire, those first three months were miserable, worse than Ike. I need to update my profile, spent the spring working a pipeline contract in Houston, and now I'm up in Georgetown kickin back and doin a little contract climbing. I kind of like it up here, not sure if I'm gonna head back to Bastrop or not. It's now one of those towns where one of my exes lives in Texas, LOL.



With a few of my Texas exes, I wouldn't feel safe in Georgetown if they lived in bastrop. The coastal boys prolly wouldn't underatand:msp_biggrin:


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 28, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> With a few of my Texas exes, I wouldn't feel safe in Georgetown if they lived in bastrop. The coastal boys prolly wouldn't underatand:msp_biggrin:



Eh, she got thegoldmine, I got the shaft, as usual. I still do a little contract climbin down there, but it's pretty quiet down there compared to a year ago. It's all good. I'm just kind of takin a little breather after the last few years, flippin afew saws, climbin a few days a week and figuring out my next move.


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## Goose IBEW (Apr 28, 2013)

I now understand why the tactfulness goes out the window.


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 28, 2013)

Hey, I,m not bitter, just honest. No room for BS in the tree business, either it's rigged right or it's not. I left her inabetter place, and we had some good times.


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## mckeetree (Apr 28, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> That's easy enough to agree with. What I'm asking though is how does "12 tons" get confusing for anyone? And is the fact that I spelled out exactly that I definitely checked the job over first before going to any job ready to work get confused with not checking the job first?
> 
> My point of view is clear enough to me. This is now the "I'm an AS dumpling" thing instead of a place to ask people that know anything about my specific occupation my questions, and now this is a misplaced business 101 thread now. I have AS admin explaining to me why I'm shoved on down to this forum was because I was posting BS about "12 tons of brush," and I was talking about not "going to check a tree job out before agreeing to do it." That is the actually why the thread has been moved. The reason was not because this is just a business 101 thread now.
> 
> ...



101 is right where you need to be for now. If I were you I would just drop this ongoing story you have going now and start over with something else later on.


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## B Harrison (Apr 29, 2013)

I am in the Contractors situation, not the climbers, but if I did under bid a job the way for me to learn my lesson would be the arborist charge me more than I have figured. Then I lose my but and never forget.

I don't think your losing much if the guy prices yo out of work.


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## treemandan (Apr 29, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Your thread was moved here because this is the place for people who are relatively new to your profession.
> 
> It's obvious from your posts that you need help and advice. You also need to start listening to what these guys are telling you. If you added up all the years of experience from all the people who have replied to this thread so far you'd know that their advice is based on sound reasoning.
> 
> ...



HEY!! come on now, I am pretty tactful and I think a lot of us are, we are just choosing to use it differently, its still tact nontheless. I mean, to say we lack tact just doesn't seem fair. I , for one, am proud and impressed at everybody for not being rude and demeaning and, instead, offering very sound business advice in a truthful, non-threatening matter of fact manner.


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## Gologit (Apr 29, 2013)

treemandan said:


> HEY!! come on now, I am pretty tactful and I think a lot of us are, we are just choosing to use it differently, its still tact nontheless. I mean, to say we lack tact just doesn't seem fair. I , for one, am proud and impressed at everybody for not being rude and demeaning and, instead, offering very sound business advice in a truthful, non-threatening matter of fact manner.



Okay, I think you're right. You guys, for the most part _have_ been tactful. I'm impressed.

Surprised, too.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 29, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback, anybody that brought me feed back. I'm letting the landscaper know he won't have a problem from me again, and I'm suggesting that on these bigger tree jobs, he has me bid the job or at least we both get the costs to do the job right first before we put a number out there for anyone. 

I really wasn't going to ask my question I posted in my first post, but it just came to me, so I put it there to see what people thought. That worked out okay sort of.

In the mean time my little hackeroo acquaintance is still out there hacking at it on his 4th day now. The job was for $1400. I shouldn't laugh, and he really shouldn't have given away difficult work like that.


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## ducaticorse (Apr 29, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Thanks for the feedback, anybody that brought me feed back. I'm letting the landscaper know he won't have a problem from me again, and I'm suggesting that on these bigger tree jobs, he has me bid the job or at least we both get the costs to do the job right first before we put a number out there for anyone.
> 
> I really wasn't going to ask my question I posted in my first post, but it just came to me, so I put it there to see what people thought. That worked out okay sort of.
> 
> In the mean time my little hackeroo acquaintance is still out there hacking at it on his 4th day now. The job was for $1400. I shouldn't laugh, and he really shouldn't have given away difficult work like that.




So you live and learn, it's what this place is all about. Glad to see it was of some benefit to you here.


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## chief116 (Apr 29, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Thanks for the feedback, anybody that brought me feed back. I'm letting the landscaper know he won't have a problem from me again, and I'm suggesting that on these bigger tree jobs, he has me bid the job or at least we both get the costs to do the job right first before we put a number out there for anyone.
> 
> I really wasn't going to ask my question I posted in my first post, but it just came to me, so I put it there to see what people thought. That worked out okay sort of.
> 
> In the mean time my little hackeroo acquaintance is still out there hacking at it on his 4th day now. The job was for $1400. I shouldn't laugh, and he really shouldn't have given away difficult work like that.



So you could've made 1400 in half a day and #####ed about it? most companies around here charge that for a full day 2-4 man crew. 

By the way, he's at $350 a day, for one guy, which to me adds up to 70k a year figuring 200 days of work at his own pace. Not many people wouldn't take that. So for your climber/owner making 4000 a year title, it would have to take him 70 days to finish this job.

Stay in 101 so I don't have to read your useless babble about other "hacks" and popping stumps next to curbs anymore.


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## Naked Arborist (Apr 29, 2013)

Del_ said:


> One big waste of internet bandwidth.



...and brain power. I gave up at this point to just say: I always have people bid my jobs for me and Yes I get 4g's a day to climb! ROF LMBO!!!


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## millbilly (Apr 29, 2013)

Wait, hold on at Chief, your missing something. 

It gets better every time this guy adds to his story. It should have been a $2000 to $2400 dollar job, since the know nothing landscaper under bid it by $600 to $1000. 

I only dream of billing $2400 dollars by lunch time. I'm lucky to bill $2400 by lunch time on Wednesday, and if I do I'm happy.

As Judge Judy says, "if it doesn't make sense, it's probably no true." 

What a load of BS.

I bet this guy only runs Stihls. Don't take offence stihl owners, but all the BSers always run Stihls, comes with the territory.


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## Naked Arborist (Apr 29, 2013)

*I made 4g's before lunch on Tuesday...*

Hacks like Stihls cause there tough ass saws! It's amazing what they can do to the AV systems on chainsaws.

The rest of us just like good stuff or own far too many of them to run much else during the work day.


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## Carburetorless (Apr 29, 2013)

3 to 5 days work, for $150 to $200???

That won't even pay for fuel! If he did it for 10X that it still wouldn't be worth the trouble of taking it down, cutting it up, and hauling to whereeverthe#####'shaulinit.


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## imagineero (Apr 30, 2013)

Now now,
You guys ought to know better than to rip on guys in 101. Fair enough in the commercial section, but lets keep it clean in 101 otherwise where does it stop? Punching babies? Pushing old ladies in front of cars instead of helping them across the road? The OP's suffered enough. 101 is the place to come if you want to *help* people who need it. 

Sounds like you walking away from this job was a good thing there tree and stump. There's been some good advice given about relations with the customer when subbing, and that's a good thing to pay attention to.... no matter how much it pains you to keep your mouth shut when subbing to a hack! I used to sub every now and then but not any more. When I was doing it, I'd turn up to the job wearing work shirts without my logo, and the signage on my truck flips down too. If anybody asked who I was working for, I'd answer (truthfully!) that I'm working for whoever the principal was. Same story with anybody approaching me asking for a quote while I'm on the principles job - "talk to the boss, he's over there". While I'm on that job I'm just an employee, and might as well enjoy it for what it is. It's not my job after all.

Hopefully you've got a long future ahead of you in this industry, and if you do you ought to be thinking long term - how to lift your game, and get to a place you can provide quality work for a fair price. Sometimes it seems like two steps forward and three steps back, especially if you live in an area with a low season, and even more so when you've got equipment that's old and breaks down. The key is in building all your skills - not just tree climbing, but in quoting, understanding your business cost properly, marketing, and thinking about where you want to be. It takes years to build up to, so it's the sort of job that really only suits people who are passionate about it. In the mean time, you'll get a lot of good advice here in the short term about how to handle/quote jobs if you need it.

Shaun


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## ducaticorse (Apr 30, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Now now,
> You guys ought to know better than to rip on guys in 101. Fair enough in the commercial section, but lets keep it clean in 101 otherwise where does it stop? Punching babies? Pushing old ladies in front of cars instead of helping them across the road? The OP's suffered enough. 101 is the place to come if you want to *help* people who need it.
> 
> Sounds like you walking away from this job was a good thing there tree and stump. There's been some good advice given about relations with the customer when subbing, and that's a good thing to pay attention to.... no matter how much it pains you to keep your mouth shut when subbing to a hack! I used to sub every now and then but not any more. When I was doing it, I'd turn up to the job wearing work shirts without my logo, and the signage on my truck flips down too. If anybody asked who I was working for, I'd answer (truthfully!) that I'm working for whoever the principal was. Same story with anybody approaching me asking for a quote while I'm on the principles job - "talk to the boss, he's over there". While I'm on that job I'm just an employee, and might as well enjoy it for what it is. It's not my job after all.
> ...



LOL, exactly. A MOD moved this thread here from the commercial climbing section as donkey boy posted it there first. THEN made several comments stating that he cant figure out why he was kicked down here.....IDENTIFYING what the problem is is the majority of the solution, and it seems like he's currently lacking in that department.


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## SquirrelMan (Apr 30, 2013)

IDK why everyone is on the OP so bad, I just cut 5k with my MS250 and no groundie and made it home way before lunch.


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## Tree&Stump (Apr 30, 2013)

$1400 was the cost on the tree job, and many of you stuck your head out there like I was crazy for not taking that job.


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## sgreanbeans (May 4, 2013)

LOL, I have been gone for far to long, cant believe I have been missing all this, but kinda glad I did!


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## Tree&Stump (May 4, 2013)

Tell me why a job priced at $1400 with a cost of $1400 is wrong? If nobody wants to comeback to this thread again and explain it, that's okay.


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## chief116 (May 4, 2013)

Ok buttercup, i'll bite. How does a job COST $1400? Please enlighten us thickheaded Neanderthals. Short of rocket fuel, diamond chains and solid gold bars, I can't figure it out. 


You're still either an egotistical idiot or a terrible business man in my opinion. No one in this business is irreplaceable and you got yourself replaced by a pickup truck/boat trailer "hack" because you went directly to the customer demanding more money.


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## Tree&Stump (May 4, 2013)

Fuel
Dump
Labor
Ins
Lic
Loan Payments
Maintenance


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## millbilly (May 4, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Fuel
> Dump
> Labor
> Ins
> ...



What is the payment on that 68 F 150 you have


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## Tree&Stump (May 4, 2013)

Ouch. 

Here is a part of hackman's extremely long email he finally wrote back to me after I went the polite route. What do you think?

"I do understand how the industry works and never disagreed that it was a low price for that job...But again, the only options were either take it for that price or don't take it at all. America is a capitalist economy where businesses that can provide the service for the lowest price are the ones that get the job. If prices are too low then the business runs out of money and fails, but if costs are low then the business is profitable and remains. Survival of the fittest...That's the American way and the American dream. Companies like Davey and Asplundh aren't setting their prices as such because they owe it to the industry, they are setting them as high as they can and still remain competitive with the industry and are setting them as low as possible while still remaining profitable. 

If I hadn't taken the job, neither one of us would have had the work and I would be going on week 3 of having no jobs so I am still glad that I was able to make some money over the last week. It is frustrating just how little credit you give me and how little you seem to think of me... After all is said and done I completed the job successfully and profitably so perhaps I do have more skills than you seem too think."


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## chief116 (May 4, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> It's never been a problem for the guy to bid jobs except (now that I think about it) only with the larger tree jobs. I'll just take the advice, and say I'll need to be there to make the bids on large jobs, so we're making money.
> 
> I stopped by after a job of my own to see how the other guy was doing. It's hard to hold in my chuckles right now. He had the tree half down, and he was using a wood chipper on the front lawn the size of a moving box. It chips into a bag, and then he dumps the bag into his 1/4 ton pick up with a camper shell. It looks like he'll be into it for 4-5 days like I said. *My bid was to have the tree gone by lunch, and grind stump all in one day.* I need to ask him how slave labor is working out with the new business and all. His ground worker who hasn't touched bark with work gloves before in his life will make more money on this than he will. The laughter is hard to contain.





Tree&Stump said:


> Fuel
> Dump
> Labor
> Ins
> ...



So it costs you $1400 to get out of bed in the morning? You could've been done by lunch, had all your bills paid, and gone on to the next job which would've been pure profit.



Tree&Stump said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Here is a part of hackman's extremely long email he finally wrote back to me after I went the polite route. What do you think?
> 
> ...



Humble and honest. I like that guy better. Get him to join.


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## Tree&Stump (May 4, 2013)

And he makes $4000 a year while he's out there advertising that tree work is cheaper than lawn work.


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## Gologit (May 4, 2013)

Tree&Stump said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Here is a part of hackman's extremely long email he finally wrote back to me after I went the polite route. What do you think?
> 
> ...



Gee, he writes just like you do. Same word progressions, same sentence structure, same punctuation.

Strange, strange indeed.

You wouldn't be making this whole debacle up would you? Trolling for attention...that sort of thing?


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## KenJax Tree (May 4, 2013)

:msp_mellow:


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## sgreanbeans (May 5, 2013)

I thinks its time to get my cuzzin..... Bobby Lee Wayne
:hmm3grin2orange:


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