# Reading chips...



## Reilly (Mar 23, 2017)

Hey guys, I know typically when I fell trees that I have pretty good size chips that are thrown and I am new to milling but when I mill, using 2 brand new Stihl ripping chains, that my chips are more like powdered sugar and the rips take about 15 minutes for 8 foot logs. Is this normal? I do run a file across the chain after each rip and am using an auxiliary bar oiler. Thanks, Mike.


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## DTrap (Mar 23, 2017)

Yeah you won't see normal chips when milling. Cut time will depend on tons of variables from wood type to the way you sharpen your chain. Get the log up off the ground and set it up at a nice angle so the weight of the saw and mill can help feed itself down the log. As you learn more and get more time on the mill your cut speed will improve some but it's not a fast process when chainsaw milling.


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## Reilly (Mar 23, 2017)

Excellent thank you. I knew it was a slow process, I was just checking to make sure I'm not doing more wrong than right lol... BTW.. the wood I am milling is just felled DF. I am wondering if it would be best for me to let this stuff sit for a couple years before milling, or would it make any difference as far as pitch is concerned.


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## Boogedy_Man (Mar 23, 2017)

Yeah, I don't read chips very well when milling, I just watch for real fine stuff as an indication I've gone too long without sharpening. Each log is a little different. Sometimes when you get into a crotch or something it can throw some normal looking chips for a portion of the cut. Anything spalted gets weird, too, and the saw can just fly through the softer areas throwing some monster chips.


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## SeMoTony (Mar 23, 2017)

Reilly said:


> Excellent thank you. I knew it was a slow process, I was just checking to make sure I'm not doing more wrong than right lol... BTW.. the wood I am milling is just felled DF. I am wondering if it would be best for me to let this stuff sit for a couple years before milling, or would it make any difference as far as pitch is concerned.


Go thru "milling 101" top of the page for sharpening milling chain. Part of it is to have the depth gauges down enough to get a bite that makes a chip. Look at the end grain of a cross cut to see what the cutters are facing while milling. On my avatar that is a ms 460 that pulled a chain around a 60" bar to slice off the table top under my arm. 70cc saws are not rated to pull a 36" bar, adjust & overcome. I used square chisel skip chain on 42" bar for the ash log from that stump with the same chain. Milling the log was harder on the saw even tho the bar is 18" shorter than cross cutting the stump. IMHO green wood mills a little easier than dry since the grain is spred as far apart as it's gonna be,while dry wood has shrunk bringing the rings closer, tighter & harder.
Impromptu GTG for milling; is in here and shows a couple pic's of how I do this. The pic close to the end of the cut shows the angle off 90* I found to work well in that green pecan log. Small amount of description along with boomer87's camera work and a slight slope of the log. Stay safe


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## Reilly (Mar 23, 2017)

Thanks for the great info guys! I've been reading the MIlling tips 101 for about an hour, awesome info in there!


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## JTM (Mar 23, 2017)

What SeMoTony said on depth gauges. Study BobL's post on chain sharpening. I am new at this as well but the instruction and understanding of progressive raker depth really kicked it up a notch for me in maintaining my chains even for cross cutting. Another thing I noticed is that my 42" bar with skip chain cut significantly faster than my 30" bar with full comp milling on the same log. Both chains were new out of the box Oregon square ground. Makes me think that milling with the shorter bar would benefit from using skip as well.


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## BobL (Mar 23, 2017)

A few pointers/reminders

New chain (even ripping chain) is rarely set up right for milling on big saws. 
The rakers on new 3/8 and 404 chain are usually set at 25"' which translates to a raker angle of 5.7º.
This is done by the manufacturers to ensure small saws don't bog down and to minimise kickback.
However it is far from optimised for big saws especially in softwoods.

All my comments below are for stock 90+ CC saws. 
Nothing is hard and fast - the figures provided are rubbery and are just a guide.
Only you can determine what is right for your setup and woods being cut.

For milling in <24" or thereabouts softwoods, you could use up to 8.5º. On new chain where the gullet is 0.25" this translates to a 0.037"' raker depth, thats right WAAAY more than you ever thought advisable 
This setup will VIBE (a lot), there will be more B&C wear and tear, and it will harder to produce a good finish but it will make big chips and cut fast.
*Be aware *if you use this setup for cross cutting it may kick back much more easily that a stock chain.
For less vibe try 8º, for better finish try 7º, for Lopro chain try 9.5º!
For skip - sorry I don't have the time to describe the requirements 

For logs wider than 24" or hardwoods, or smaller saws you will need to reduce the raker angle. 

For really hardwoods, like the sort I tackle with the 076 and 880 and 42-60" bars, I use 6.5º raker angles.
With my 441 with Lopro chain on a 25" bar even in hardwood I use 7.5º 

Just because a new chain is set to, for example; 0.037"' (8.5º) raker depth, does not mean you should use that for the life of the chain. As the cutter wears the gullet gets wider so the raker will need to be dropped further than 0.037"' to maintain the 8.5º raker angle. If the cutter loses 1/4" of length the gullet doubles and so the raker depth should be doubled. What you will find is you will get close to running out of raker but thats the price to be paid to cut at this level.


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## BobL (Mar 23, 2017)

SeMoTony said:


> IMHO green wood mills a little easier than dry since the grain is spred as far apart as it's gonna be,while dry wood has shrunk bringing the rings closer, tighter & harder.



FWIW The harder the wood is the bigger the difference in the ease of milling green versus dry.
The janka hardness for timber typically increases by between 10 and 30+% between green and dry wood.
For a softwood which is 450 lb when green it might increase by 300 to 700 lb when dry, but on an hard wood that is 1300 lb green, the increase could be 700lb so overall it will reach 2000 lb when dry.
This is an increase of 700 lb in hardness which is. the total hardness of the dry softwood.

Even on logs that have not been down too long the difference in dryness between the first and last 6" or so and the middle of log warrants docking the ends of the log otherwise the stuffing is knocked out of the sharpness of the chain.

Some Aussie timbers are more stable if left to partially dry in the log. If cut immediately there is significant checking/warping etc compared to being left for a couple of months.


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## SeMoTony (Mar 23, 2017)

BobL said:


> A few pointers/reminders
> 
> New chain (even ripping chain) is rarely set up right for milling on big saws.
> The rakers on new 3/8 and 404 chain are usually set at 25"' which translates to a raker angle of 5.7º.
> ...


Thank you very much for sharing such a large amount info with us. Now I'm gonna hafta do my own research on square chisel skip which is as it should be


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

Reilly said:


> Hey guys, I know typically when I fell trees that I have pretty good size chips that are thrown and I am new to milling but when I mill, using 2 brand new Stihl ripping chains, that my chips are more like powdered sugar and the rips take about 15 minutes for 8 foot logs. Is this normal? I do run a file across the chain after each rip and am using an auxiliary bar oiler. Thanks, Mike.


I take 7-8 minutes to go through 10 feet of 24"-30" Red Oak with an aftermarket MS660. I grind my own chain using Archer white box (TriLink) 3/8 .063 comp semi chisel and 10/50/-10 grinder settings. Chips are mixed from sand to 1/4" - 3/8" long curls. I finished my 3rd cut, so 30 feet cut so far, and still making nice little curls and some sand.


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

Reilly said:


> Hey guys, I know typically when I fell trees that I have pretty good size chips that are thrown and I am new to milling but when I mill, using 2 brand new Stihl ripping chains, that my chips are more like powdered sugar and the rips take about 15 minutes for 8 foot logs. Is this normal? I do run a file across the chain after each rip and am using an auxiliary bar oiler. Thanks, Mike.


How exactly are you filing? Ripping chain needs a sharper top plate so if using a standard filing guide or incorrect free hand filing you are getting too blunt of a cutting angle on the top plate.


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## BobL (Mar 24, 2017)

Johnnybar said:


> I take 7-8 minutes to go through 10 feet of 24"-30" Red Oak with an aftermarket MS660. I grind my own chain using Archer white box (TriLink) 3/8 .063 comp semi chisel and 10/50/-10 grinder settings. Chips are mixed from sand to 1/4" - 3/8" long curls. I finished my 3rd cut, so 30 feet cut so far, and still making nice little curls and some sand.



Your raker angle (long diagonal of the pink box from red horizontal) is 5.4º which is slightly less than stock.
If the saw has anything close to 660 performance, in that wood I'd be trying at least 7º or maybe 7.5º



Your cutter could also use more hook (top plate cutting angle) so the saw wont self feed like it should.
Compare with this picture - top one is Will Malloff's. lower one is mine.



BTW that chain is safety (anti kick back) chain and it will be slightly more difficult for it to clear sawdust than regular chain. Anti kickback chain is not needed for milling.


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## rarefish383 (Mar 24, 2017)

Mike, when you said DF, I was assuming Douglas Fir? If so, I would say a 15 minute cut is way too long, unless you are using a small saw. I milled up some Dawn Redwood a while back and it was taking me about 2 minutes a cut on 28" wide 8 footers. On 30" Oak about 5 minutes. On the Oak I need to touch up the chain about every 4 slabs. On the DR I cut 20 slabs and then several Blue Spruce slabs and it was still going strong. Then I hit a bunch of mud on the off side I didn't notice. I'm using a Stihl 660 with regular Stihl chain, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Mar 24, 2017)

Mike, also, I think my biggest learning curve was between sharp cross cutting and sharp milling. I've been cutting firewood like hot butter. Stuck the saw on the mill, and it acted so dull I thought I put the wrong chain on it. Then on the flip side, I've been milling and it was getting dull, went straight to the wood pile, and the same chain cut like hot butter again. Cutting firewood being close, almost sharp, is good enough. Milling, almost sharp won't go, Joe.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 24, 2017)

Here is a picture i found that has sawdust in it ,it looks a little bigger than a skillsaw makes ,the bigger chips in the dust pile are likely from hitting knots ,i run square chain .404 so the way i set my chain up is different than what the guys above run .


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

Johnnybar said:


> How exactly are you filing? Ripping chain needs a sharper top plate so if using a standard filing guide or incorrect free hand filing you are getting too blunt of a cutting angle on the top plate.



In all honesty I am using the cheap harbor freight electric grinder which only does the top plate.


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

rarefish383 said:


> Mike, when you said DF, I was assuming Douglas Fir? If so, I would say a 15 minute cut is way too long, unless you are using a small saw. I milled up some Dawn Redwood a while back and it was taking me about 2 minutes a cut on 28" wide 8 footers. On 30" Oak about 5 minutes. On the Oak I need to touch up the chain about every 4 slabs. On the DR I cut 20 slabs and then several Blue Spruce slabs and it was still going strong. Then I hit a bunch of mud on the off side I didn't notice. I'm using a Stihl 660 with regular Stihl chain, Joe.





rarefish383 said:


> Mike, also, I think my biggest learning curve was between sharp cross cutting and sharp milling. I've been cutting firewood like hot butter. Stuck the saw on the mill, and it acted so dull I thought I put the wrong chain on it. Then on the flip side, I've been milling and it was getting dull, went straight to the wood pile, and the same chain cut like hot butter again. Cutting firewood being close, almost sharp, is good enough. Milling, almost sharp won't go, Joe.



Yes to Douglas Fir, and I am using an old gray top Husky 61 with too big of bar. I picked up a 20" bar and chain and am putting them on tonight and giving them a try. I also elevated one end of the log and I think that's going to help a bunch. Thanks again everyone!


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

BobL said:


> Your raker angle (long diagonal of the pink box from red horizontal) is 5.4º which is slightly less than stock.
> If the saw has anything close to 660 performance, in that wood I'd be trying at least 7º or maybe 7.5º
> View attachment 567391
> 
> ...


That first pic you posted is the factory original chain fresh out of the 100' box that cost me a grand total of $149 delivered...or $12 a loop (42" 135 DL). With the 10/50/-10 grind I put on it, it feeds great in hard Red Oak...very happy with it for $ spent. Absolutely no concern that it is safety....it does the job and it's tossing chips fine . It holds it's edge much better than I expected for milling use as well as for normal use with the factory grind based on John's reports of 6 cords of 32" Ash iirc and still fat curls before kissing a rock. Guess I got lucky with a grind and raker geometry that fits the 660's powerband nicely.


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

Reilly said:


> In all honesty I am using the cheap harbor freight electric grinder which only does the top plate.


I'm not sure what the HF has built in for the top plate cutter angle but it looks pretty blunt for ripping purposes. You could try establishing the 10 degree top plate angle with the HF then touching up the top plate cutter angle with a file. A standard filing guide may give too blunt of a cutter angle so try for a tooth that looks like BobL's 2nd and 3rd pics in post #13.


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

You can set the top plate angle with the HF grinder. I use 10 degrees as that's what the chain already was. So are you using a skip tooth cc chain for milling, is that what i am understanding? If so i'll pick one up tonight.


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

I use cheap comp semi chisel and it clears oak chips just fine plus, if I ever want skip, I can just grab the grinder and start taking out cutters. PS, comp = 2 drive links per cutter.


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

Johnnybar said:


> I use cheap comp semi chisel and it clears oak chips just fine plus, if I ever want skip, I can just grab the grinder and start taking out cutters. PS, comp = 2 drive links per cutter.



Wow, ok so my local saw shop charges me $53 for the ripping chains, and the comp semi chisel chain is $26!


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

Reilly said:


> Wow, ok so my local saw shop charges me $53 for the ripping chains, and the comp semi chisel chain is $26!


I would send you a loop but shipping would put it close to the $26. If you are not worried about production in really big softwood, I think you'll be fine with comp. There's theoretical perfect, real world perfect and real world works at a reasonable price...take your pick. If you get enough information that $50 will get you 2-3 min cuts in softwood vs 15 min cuts for $26 you might change your mind. All I can say is my setup works great in 24-30" Red Oak.


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

i hear what you're saying as I'm a tech for Toyota and I try to explain to customers and new techs all the time that there's theoretical, and real world practices lol... Thanks man for your help.


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## rarefish383 (Mar 24, 2017)

I just looked up the Husky 61 and it's about 61 CC's. The Stihl 660 is 90 something CC's so it's a good bit bigger. When I was milling with my Homelite 1050, 100 CC's, with 404 it was slower than my 660. You might be about where that 61 is doing it's best, Joe.


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

rarefish383 said:


> I just looked up the Husky 61 and it's about 61 CC's. The Stihl 660 is 90 something CC's so it's a good bit bigger. When I was milling with my Homelite 1050, 100 CC's, with 404 it was slower than my 660. You might be about where that 61 is doing it's best, Joe.



I'm actually looking for an 80cc or bigger saw as we speak. I don't think the 61 is very happy with this work lol..


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## SeMoTony (Mar 24, 2017)

BobL said:


> Your raker angle (long diagonal of the pink box from red horizontal) is 5.4º which is slightly less than stock.
> If the saw has anything close to 660 performance, in that wood I'd be trying at least 7º or maybe 7.5º
> View attachment 567391
> 
> ...


Thank you Bob! Pictures are so much easier to read than letters(-; Now I just have to put on the reading glasses and move files in between comparing picture with my 3d metal


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## Johnnybar (Mar 24, 2017)

Reilly said:


> I'm actually looking for an 80cc or bigger saw as we speak. I don't think the 61 is very happy with this work lol..


Are you considering jumping on the 660 kit bandwagon?


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## Reilly (Mar 24, 2017)

I have no clue yet lol.... I've been looking at everything, old Macs, Stihl, Jonsereds etc...


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## Johnnybar (Mar 28, 2017)

Reilly said:


> Hey guys, I know typically when I fell trees that I have pretty good size chips that are thrown and I am new to milling but when I mill, using 2 brand new Stihl ripping chains, that my chips are more like powdered sugar and the rips take about 15 minutes for 8 foot logs. Is this normal? I do run a file across the chain after each rip and am using an auxiliary bar oiler. Thanks, Mike.



Here's the 4th slab cut on that Archer chain I mentioned earlier. Makes 40' of 24"-33" wide Red Oak cutting so far and still making chips. No way you should have to touch up after 8' of cutting.


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## Reilly (Mar 29, 2017)

Great video johnny.. I've been using the new chain and life has been great. I got through a whole new log without filing and will be starting another tonight. Thanks again for all your help!


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## SeMoTony (Apr 9, 2017)

Reilly said:


> I'm actually looking for an 80cc or bigger saw as we speak. I don't think the 61 is very happy with this work lol..



If you get an 80cc saw I'd give odds that you will want a work saw ported 90cc shortly after a 28" or larger log comes your way. 
just the way it seems to go. My avatar shows off the 60" bar alaskan set up. I liked the 50" cannon so well that "just in case" not knowing I'd ever use it ordered the 60". The stump under alaskan required a 72" bar to make another table top. The 6 foot dual powered bar is in the mail from the west coast even tho I've used the 60" only on that ash stump. Better to have & not need than to need and not have! The cannon bar was orderd end of October.  the cut that could have been made would have provided a table that may have covered half or more of my cost for power heads reels of chain and bars due to the unusuality of shape and coloration IMhO just what happens for more than me.


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## Reilly (Apr 11, 2017)

SeMoTony said:


> If you get an 80cc saw I'd give odds that you will want a work saw ported 90cc shortly after a 28" or larger log comes your way.
> just the way it seems to go. My avatar shows off the 60" bar alaskan set up. I liked the 50" cannon so well that "just in case" not knowing I'd ever use it ordered the 60". The stump under alaskan required a 72" bar to make another table top. The 6 foot dual powered bar is in the mail from the west coast even tho I've used the 60" only on that ash stump. Better to have & not need than to need and not have! The cannon bar was orderd end of October.  the cut that could have been made would have provided a table that may have covered half or more of my cost for power heads reels of chain and bars due to the unusuality of shape and coloration IMhO just what happens for more than me.



Oh you're right about that! As Tim Taylor always said "More Power!"


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