# Beginner Question: Diagrams etc



## duckbuster_13 (Jun 25, 2007)

Hello, 

I'm new'ish to tree climbing (aside from what we all did as a kid... and/still do a few feet off the ground).

I rock climb frequently and have a decent working knowledge of the gear and systems involved. 

My question is this: Are there any sites (or parts of this site) that show setups with explanations for tree climbing?

I found a really nice maple i'm going to have a go at soon in an attempt to clear a few small branches, and am tempted to employ a rock climbing style approach to the accent. 

ie:

I'd have a harness on, and a friend on belay. I'd climb up by hand, and sling some webbing with carabiners on branches as I go and clip the rope into them for protection. then have my belayer lower me off when finished. 

technical problems I may encounter? better ways to do it?

thanks in advance!

-Clint


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## moray (Jun 25, 2007)

Welcome to the site, Duckbuster!

I have a friend who climbs trees with a rock climber's harness, but he modified it to include a couple of side Dee rings.

You may be able to get up in the tree with the scheme you describe, but you would be poorly protected against a fall and poorly situated to do any work. Pick up a copy of The Tree Climber's Companion, by Jeff Jepson. This has tons of diagrams, descriptions of gear, knots, techniques, etc. A small goldmine.


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## duckbuster_13 (Jun 25, 2007)

excellent! thanks for the heads up! I'll check that out on amazon. 

Quick question though, how does one usually get a rope into the tree aside from free climbing it and then setting the rope? throw lines?

Perhaps that would be better suited.... 

Thanks again!


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## Fireaxman (Jun 25, 2007)

duckbuster_13 said:


> ... Quick question though, how does one usually get a rope into the tree aside from free climbing it and then setting the rope? throw lines? ...



Yessir. Throwlines. Maybe something as simple as a Baseball with string taped to it with duct tape. When I first started fooling with this I used a bow rigged with a fishing arrow for long shots, but as I got more serious I took the suggestion of others and bought a Bigshot. Kind of an big upside down sling shot. Wonderful! Page 23 of the second edition of Jepson's "The Tree Climber's Companion".

Have you got a lot of the rock climbing hardware? Ascenders and descenders?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 26, 2007)

*Hi noobster!*

There has been stuff written here on your exact topic for about half a decade. Look up above, see the line that says User CP, FAQ, Members List...... keep going til you get to Search. This is a good place to start hunting.

If you find a thread that really rocks your boat, _reply_ to it, even if it's years old. That'll rekindle the thread. As a rock climber, you're more adept at SRT, so type in SRT and see what you come up with, probably 20 or 30 threads.

Among the differences between rock climbing and tree climbing (and face it, there are a LOT of differences) is that tree climbing is generally easier. We make a living doing it, we 'work-position' we carry a chainsaw and we self-ascend and self-belay.


Welcome to the site!


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## masiman (Jun 28, 2007)

+1 on TM's comments.

I came from a rock background also. As mentioned in another thread you posted in, with arbor work you are on the line by design not by fault. Use your line to control friction. Your work will go much faster and smoother if you self belay. I can't think of when I would want someone on the ground belaying me unless they were helping me get out of the tree in an emergency. Arbor work is more akin to bouldering than pitch climbing in terms of division of labor.

I think the rock harnesses are definitely more comfortable but are way too lightweight for what you'll want to carry up with you for work in the tree. Also they do not have the connection points that are very useful for arbor work.

You could do the maple work with your rock harness but you'll have less flexibility with positioning and techniques than with an arbor harness. I know they look silly and clunky at first but if you spend time doing the work you will see how optimized they are.

Use your rock experience to help define your pro positions. After a little bit you'll start to see the wisdom and speed of arbor techniques. After that you'll just have to decide which techniques you'll want to employ and what hardware you will need to do that.

Get the books and try the techniques out.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 28, 2007)

Masiman said:


> I think the rock harnesses are definitely more comfortable but are way too lightweight for what you'll want to carry up with you for work in the tree. Also they do not have the connection points that are very useful for arbor work.


I use my rock harness when travelling on vacation and ya gotta keep your gear compact and minimal. It'll get you by, but not in an impressive way. A former apprentice spent the first year and a half in a rock harness, low and slow and very limited in what he could do. A few months ago he got a Petzl Vario, more like a rock harness than a tree saddle, but it has the tree saddle connection points Masiman refers to, which allow you the use of a critical piece absent on tree harnesses- the adjustable flipline. Never seen a sliding bridge on a tree harness, something I miss terribly when climbing in rock saddles or the cheaper, former saddles I used to use that I keep and use at my parent's house while vacationing there.

Treeguys hang on rope a lot. Rock climbers, _only when they're not climbing_. If you have to hang suspended on rope in a tree harness for very long, you rethink 'comfort'. Quality tree saddles allow you to be on rope all day long with gobs of gear and a saw or two.


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## Boa07 (Jun 28, 2007)

As is often the case TM says the things I'm thinking but manages to get the point across simply and directly. I also spent many years rec rock climbing before becoming a climbing arborist, and would strongly reiterate TM's point about the role of rope in the two climbing disciplines. I had some unnecessary hard times learning to use my arb rope in ways rock climbers never normally use their rock ropes. Our rope is always our primary attachment and we can use our weight and the angles created between our attachment point on the harness and the Tie In Point to make our work much easier than it would be relying on the structure of the tree alone.

You may find as I did that much of my rock climbing experiences gave me an advantage when climbing above my TIP or in long branch walks, I would certainly agree that bouldering is far closer to tree climbing than pitch climbing.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 28, 2007)

Boa said:


> I had some unnecessary hard times learning to use my arb rope in ways rock climbers never normally use their rock ropes.


Right on, Boa! Rock climbers never take hold of their rope, only the rock. Tree climbers hold anything and everything, using every possible advantage they can muster to make their job safer, more productive and thus more profitable. The only rules we make are those concerning safety. 
As far as technique and method, there are no limitations or restrictions. This is a job and a profession. It's not a game, a competition nor a recreational activity.


Boa said:


> Our rope is always our primary attachment and we can use our weight and the angles created between our attachment point on the harness and the Tie In Point to make our work much easier than it would be relying on the structure of the tree alone.


It's a dance between you, the rope and the tree. Sometimes just you and the rope. Sometimes just you and the tree. Most often the three of you at once.

I went straight from rock climbing to tree climbing, with about two years of crossover, doing both. Zero training in tree climbing and rigging, (but good biology). My earliest tree climbing was on 10 mm dynamic rock climbing rope and I lowered stuff with 11 mm dynamic rock climbing rope. I simply knew no better. When the rope-making industry came out with the 11 mm Arborist climbing lines a few years ago, I was thrilled beyond words; back to my 11 mm rope roots.

I'm still heavily influenced by the rock climbing background, especially in gear. It's the primary reason I'm among the black sheep in our Arbo community.


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## Boa07 (Jun 28, 2007)

Ha, ha you see TM proves my point again


> It's a dance between you, the rope and the tree. Sometimes just you and the rope. Sometimes just you and the tree. Most often the three of you at once


Simple and to the point absolutely great and accurate description of what its like and what it looks like from the ground too when you're watching a good climber.


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## Dadatwins (Jun 28, 2007)

Besides the difference in gear and style, you need to learn about the tree also before climbing. Picking the right place to tie in makes a world of difference when climbing a tree. Also need to remember trees are living and they sometimes break. Unlike a rock that never moves, trees move with the wind, and branches bend when you stand on them. Learn to look for dead limbs,broken hangers overhead, hollow spots, base decay, and a whole lot more. Be careful, and have fun.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 2, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Learn to look for dead limbs,broken hangers overhead, hollow spots, base decay, and a whole lot more. Be careful, and have fun.


Some tree have it all:


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## kennertree (Jul 2, 2007)

Nice pics TM.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 3, 2007)

Hey Rangr, welcome to the site!

You may get a number of different answers on that. That's because there's a number of ways to go about it. First, the flipline can be permanantly affixed to one side of your saddle and the other side removable and adjustable, or neither side is permanently connected (each side removable). 

The classic dudes, the purists (in a rope sense) will use a section of regular climbing rope as the flipline and adjust with a smaller diameter rope prussik or friction hitch which attaches to the saddle via a caribiner or snap. The other end of the flipline is permanently connected to the saddle. The more mod purists will have a prussik-type rope adjuster on _each_ side of the saddle, and either side can be removed and either side can be adjusted. This is called a dual-ended, dual-adjustable flipline (DEDA). Then there's a dual-ended, one side adjustable. Then there's the most common, single ended, single adjustable. The dual adjustables are almost always rope-prussik adjusters on rope flipline, but you can also use rope-prussik adjusters on wirecore fliplines.

Besides the rope-prussik adjusters, there's _mechanical_ adjusters, usually a Petzl micrograb, or a Gibb's-type adjuster, basically a one-way, compact ascender that is adjustable one-handed. It is permanently on the flipline and connects to the saddle via a triple-lock caribiner, though I have seen some setups where the climber connects on and off with a quicklink (Maillon Rapide). The quicklink is anything but quick. Klimair has a dual-direction ascender device that you can use on a dual-ended flipline. With this setup, you can adjust with either hand, depending on which side the adjuster is on, with the versatility of being able to disconnect from either side of your saddle. This, I guess, would be a single adjuster, dual sided ajustability, dual ended flipline, with an acronym that would be rather ugly.

No one uses leather buckstraps anymore, except for a few remaing cavemen. Most, I imagine, use rope fliplines because of the economy, but many use wirecore, which is wire rope (steel cable) with rope braided around it, making it look just like rope, but it's terminated around streel thimbles and industrially swaged. These 'flip' better and give the climber a higher sense of confidence as a chainsaw has a pretty tough time cutting through them. Rope fliplines, on the other hand, are not as forgiving if you make that mistake.

I have tried a number of these systems, so to have a personal ability to compare and contrast. That doesn't mean I can tell you what's better, because a lot of it boils down to personal preference, what the climber thinks he or she can afford, what they know of what's available.

Personally, I think wirecore fliplines are the way to go, even though I've been on rope fliplines for the past two years. Wirecores are more expensive, and the dual-ended wire-cores (yum) are really hard to find. They're heavier, too, as in addition to the metal core and metal thimbles, each end has a metal (usually steel) safety snap. The weight and cost, compared to the bombproof feeling of safety, and the confidence that brings, make it a worthwhile investment. Ya just gotta keep your saw away from your flipline, wirecore or rope (duh!).

Back to your adjuster question, Tree Machine likes the compact, aluminum Petzl Micrograb, probably the most popular of all flipline adjusters, and for good reason. Affordable, lightweight, compact, one-handed, paired with an aluminum triple-lock and the very important, but often overlooked captive thingy, or trap (stainless steel, rubber, leather or plastic) to hold the biner captive in the adjuster so it doesn't flip around. The most important facet of the system is your ability to put it on, off, and adjust it with one hand.

Here's a pic from a couple days ago, a whacky-big takedown, photo credit to Alex, brush schlepper extraordinaire and pretty good with the camera. I'd just attached the bull rope onto that limb and was removing the flipline so as to avoid an unnecessary flight.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jul 4, 2007)

Great description Tree! I've got one more that may work out well for Rangr. 

Welcome Duckbuster and Rangr! 

http://www.fs.fed.us/treeclimbing/policy/guide/tree-climbing-field-guide-2005-edition.pdf

Duck buster, the link above is to a USFS document aimed at cone collectors. It is about tree climbing but written with a very rock climbing bias. Good luck. And please remember that there is no substitute for an apprenticeship with a qualified tree company.


Rangr, the attached diagram below is of a becket hitch which I once used to connect my flip line to the saddle. It is simple and offers one handed operation, the knot never really tightens up because of the wire core, so if you want to let out some line just unload the flip line (stand on your spurs and lean into the tree) and pull some slack from the non-working end through and then lean back into it. In the diagram the non-working end is the section of line that goes down. 

This method works best with larger lines, my favorite was a ¾” steel core manila, the extra volume really gives you something to hang on to! Also the smaller diameter lines tend to develop a twist, so your flipline will hang down in a loose spiral or pig tail, that seems to always get wound up in your saw or other lines.

This is a terrific attachment method, not so quick as an ascender but better than some prussic systems I have seen in use. I’ve considered going back to it on many occasions, but for efficiency of adjustment I have to stay with my ½”, new england rope, wire core, swivel snap; running through a wild country, rope man ascender; which is attached to my d ring with a mallion rapide.


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## woodchux (Jul 4, 2007)

I tried the becket hitch on one of my wire core lanyards once and it seemed to kink the metal core.


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## anuvadave (Jul 28, 2007)

*dont lead it man...*

you could do alot of damage taking a lead fall in a tree, Ive only had to lead a tree in one specific situation. save the leading for the crags. As someone else suggested the thowball/ baseball & tape idea. then you could just tope rope it - but i wouldnt walk out on any branches or anything like that with someone else belaying me - esp in an oak.I reckon working in trees is much more dangerous than rockclimbing. 

if youd like to get into tree climbing as a recreation - i know there are a few groups in the usa that have meets & teach novices etc. I wouldnt reccommend learning from diagrams off the net.
hope this helps.
be careful m8
dave


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