# Why Not Pull Trees Over With Chain?



## StihlRockin' (Mar 26, 2012)

What reason(s) are there for not felling trees over by pulling with a chain instead of bull ropes?

Back in the early 80's when I was just a pup, I had been working for a tree service as a grunt. They pulled trees over using cable. Afterwards when I went on my own, for a short while I used cable too because that is how I was taught. I know better now but recently met a fellow... who's stubborn as any mule I know of, uses chain to pull trees over. You can't tell him anything.

Anyway, what reasons can you think of to NOT pull trees over using chain? 

*StihlRockin'*


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## Tree Pig (Mar 26, 2012)

StihlRockin' said:


> What reason(s) are there for not felling trees over by pulling with a chain instead of bull ropes?
> 
> Back in the early 80's when I was just a pup, I had been working for a tree service as a grunt. They pulled trees over using cable. Afterwards when I went on my own, for a short while I used cable too because that is how I was taught. I know better now but recently met a fellow... who's stubborn as any mule I know of, uses chain to pull trees over. You can't tell him anything.
> 
> ...



expensive, heavy to work with, not easy to get 60' up in a tree and hurts like hell when it snaps and hits you in the back of the head or go through your windshield.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 26, 2012)

Pick up a hundred foot of chain, then pick up a hundred foot of rope and let me know which you'd rather carry up a tree.


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## flushcut (Mar 26, 2012)

Heavy!!!! is there a better reason to not use chain?


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## StihlRockin' (Mar 26, 2012)

I have a few myself.... one of them being... like if there are only 200 links on a very short chain, those links are only as strong as the weld holding them together. Hence, it's only as strong as the weakest link. I trust arborist's bull ropes more than any chain.

*StihlRockin'*


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 26, 2012)

In addition to all the great reasons above.....

The stretch of the rope is your friend, and,

It's pretty damn tough to apply a MA system to a chain compared to a rope.


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## flushcut (Mar 26, 2012)

Del_ said:


> I've always had trouble pulling a chain up into a tree with a throwline.
> 
> 
> ....and a running bowline is hard to tie in a chain, too.



I never had an issue tying one but untying was a PITA!


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## StihlRockin' (Mar 26, 2012)

Anyone else have an opinion or reason why having the stretch in a rope to work with is an advantage? If so, please explain.

Thanks,

*StihlRockin'*


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## KenJax Tree (Mar 26, 2012)

I dont think my big shot would launch a chain very far


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 26, 2012)

StihlRockin' said:


> Anyone else have an opinion or reason why having the stretch in a rope to work with is an advantage? If so, please explain.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> *StihlRockin'*



Well, if you are pulling with a truck it really doesn't make much difference. If using MA to pull a tree overcenter, ( ie back lean ) it allows you to 'preload' the tree, and as it starts to move, the stretch tends to keep it moving in the pull direction.
Rick

PS If you are jerking on the line with the truck, the rope will reduce the black and blue areas on your chest, compared to a chain.


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## Tree Pig (Mar 26, 2012)

flushcut said:


> I never had an issue tying one but untying was a PITA!



Well you can do the stick trick with the running bowline but you have to use rebar


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 26, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Well you can do the stick trick with the running bowline but you have to use rebar



True, but it needs to be the smooth kind, and that stuff is hard to find nowadays.
Rick


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## mattfr12 (Mar 26, 2012)

Blakesmaster said:


> Pick up a hundred foot of chain, then pick up a hundred foot of rope and let me know which you'd rather carry up a tree.



I'd like to see someone pull 100 foot of chain up a tree.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?gtcwon


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## tree md (Mar 26, 2012)

Chains have their place, usually skidding or when doing something in dirty, rough conditions that would be really hard on a rope. They are a ##### to work with in the air. I had to use a logging chain with a come along a few years back to brace up a compromised, codominant tree that I needed to rig from. Had to set it about 20' in the tree and it was a #####, I'll tell ya.


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 26, 2012)

StihlRockin' said:


> Anyone else have an opinion or reason why having the stretch in a rope to work with is an advantage? If so, please explain.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> *StihlRockin'*



When pre-tensioning with a cable or chain, it's much more difficult to determine how much pull you're putting on the stem, with a rope you can tell how tight the rope is by the amount of downward deflection when you pull down (or hang from it). Too much tension (with rope, cable, or chain) and the chances of a barber chair increase. It's easier to apply too much tension with cable or chain.

Once you've got it properly pre-tensioned, for many trees that just need a bit of help to get them started, the rubber band effect of the rope will pull it over without ever having to move the pulling vehicle.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 26, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> I'd like to see someone pull 100 foot of chain up a tree.
> 
> 
> ---
> I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?gtcwon



My mistake, I thought the OP was trying to use chain in the same manner we use rope to pull trees. Didn't understand that the plan was pull 100 ft of log chain into the tree and let the weight pull the tree over. LSNED

Rick


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 26, 2012)

tree md said:


> Chains have their place, usually skidding or when doing something in dirty, rough conditions that would be really hard on a rope. They are a ##### to work with in the air. I had to use a logging chain with a come along a few years back to brace up a compromised, codominant tree that I needed to rig from. Had to set it about 20' in the tree and it was a #####, I'll tell ya.



I've hauled two 20' sections of log chain 30' up to chain co-doms together. Felt alot safer having them in place, but man what a pain getting them in place and hooked up.


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## climberjones (Mar 26, 2012)

I am with lake bound when pulling with a chain it makes me a wee bit nervous on just how much pressure im putting on the spar! Thats why i wont use a chain ill just stick to my dynasorb!


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 27, 2012)

U guys are too funny!
I have used them with ratchet binders to tie splits back together while I worked the tree. HEAVY! They were just my chains for my machine so they were only 22.5ft long. I have a 50ft chain we call the raping chain. When I bought it, I NEEDED IT RIGHT THEN AND THERE! I was desperate. Price on the shelf was .98 cents a foot. When I checked out, it ran up at 2.70 or so per ft. I was raped by the register. I needed it badly, so I reluctantly paid. It was my mistake, they politely showed me the correct price that was right in FRONT of me!, guess my mind drifted to the prices above, instead of below...........I gotz me a nice chain do. I didnt get away scott free


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## imagineero (Mar 27, 2012)

the trouble with chain is it's made of steel. When they start making chain out of spectra, they'll be on to something....

+1 on all the above posts of heavy + expensive. Chain is king when when it comes to pulling, so long as you've got a skidder. Stands up to a heck of a lot of abuse, and no trouble getting MA on it with chockers, plus plenty of devices pull chain anyhow. High test is the only way to go though, the're not talking home depot here.

Rope has surpassed steel in terms of strength for weight. Plus it floats on water. Even inthe lower weight classes, spectra/dyneema etc rope has surpassed steel cable and chain for strength/weight. It still suffers from low reistance to dirt/abrasion and heat though. Nobody has mentioned the other low side to rope - it seriously degrades in strength over a short period, like 2-3 years regular use. I've got chains kicking around that my grandfather used. I'll pass them on when I'm done with them. Stretch can be a pro or a con depending on the situation. With competent operators most of the cons can be negated.

Shaun


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## flushcut (Mar 27, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Well you can do the stick trick with the running bowline but you have to use rebar



I forgot completely about the stick trick. Thank you for the reminder.


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## arborjockey (Mar 27, 2012)

Loggers love the cable. Trick is in the pre tension. Depending on the lenth and diameter of the cable, determines how much belly (un straighten cable) you leave. A lot of times the weight of the cable without really pulling on it is enough to bring the tree down. Cable is getting bad press by the NEW tree guys? It has its place. Chain on the other hand has its place its just not as big. You can tell the tension in cables you just have to be good. In the tower business we did it by tone. Strike the cable with a wrench and listen. :msp_thumbup:


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 27, 2012)

This is what it looks like when I read threads like this!!!! And then I just breath and realize that it could be much worse for me in life :msp_w00t:


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## Tree Pig (Mar 27, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> This is what it looks like when I read threads like this!!!! And then I just breath and realize that it could be much worse for me in life :msp_w00t:



well theres living proof that smoking wont stunt your growth


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## dts99 (Mar 27, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> I dont think my big shot would launch a chain very far



shoot one peice at a time!


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## Tree Pig (Mar 27, 2012)

This is almost disturbing 





















AND













WAIT FOR IT.....







WAIT FOR IT.......


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 27, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> This is almost disturbing
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well almost is more like certainly disturbing


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 27, 2012)

didnt somebody post a pic a while back of some fella using a chain as his flipline?


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## pdqdl (Mar 27, 2012)

Yep. I remember that.

Hey! I'll bet he never cut it with the chainsaw.


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## TimberMcPherson (Mar 28, 2012)

The stretch of the rope mean once the tree starts moving its still got some "pull" where as as soon as that first tension comes off with steel, the tree can do whatever it likes, bad news if its got side lean and the hinge starts to let go!


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## imagineero (Mar 28, 2012)

Cutting your hinge properly and leaving an appropriate amount of holding wood is one way around that. If you cant manage that, then putting some pull on the cable as it goes over is another way. Honestly though, most guys who can't manage a decent hinge don't have enough experience to judge pull correctly and overtension themselves into barber chair territory. It's probably a good thing for that sort of operator if they do cut right through their own hinge. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Shaun


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## arborjockey (Mar 30, 2012)

imagineero said:


> Cutting your hinge properly and leaving an appropriate amount of holding wood is one way around that. If you cant manage that, then putting some pull on the cable as it goes over is another way. Honestly though, most guys who can't manage a decent hinge don't have enough experience to judge pull correctly and overtension themselves into barber chair territory. It's probably a good thing for that sort of operator if they do cut right through their own hinge. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
> 
> Shaun



Good point Shaun

For the arguement against rope. The cable is static but your more so using the weight of it. The dynamics of the rope being like a bungee works the same as the cable pulling the belly out. But the cable stops it from setting back. It also keeps weight on the tree for the entire drop. Down sides, its heavy and hard to work with. 

When you have a big tree its the hot ticket. Tie it high and don't pull at a downward angle. Get a ways away from the tree. Let the cable do the work. Lastly with rope you have to untie. With cable you can start yarding that bad boy.


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## TimberMcPherson (Mar 30, 2012)

imagineero said:


> Cutting your hinge properly and leaving an appropriate amount of holding wood is one way around that. If you cant manage that, then putting some pull on the cable as it goes over is another way. Honestly though, most guys who can't manage a decent hinge don't have enough experience to judge pull correctly and overtension themselves into barber chair territory. It's probably a good thing for that sort of operator if they do cut right through their own hinge. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
> 
> Shaun



Only takes an abnormality in the wood to make the correct hinge next to worthless. Had a beaut in a big old pine years back on a job I was contract climbing, it had grown over an old branch, right on the uphill part of the hinge and had a pool of resin around it, lucky for us it only cost us a tirfor and some hours getting the log up the hill. 
I had to laugh, the guy was pumping the tirfor for all he was worth but the hinge was failing and he couldnt move it fast enough. Guy on the backcut (not me) was screaming "faster! FASTER!". 

Had it happened on the tree further back in the line we had felled in the morning, good bye house. Nice springy ropes all the way for me. I should also add that I live in an incredibly windy town, we get some crazy gusts and winds pick up from nowhere. Rope is cheap insurance


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## FanOFatherNash (Mar 30, 2012)

Slvrmple72 said:


> didnt somebody post a pic a while back of some fella using a chain as his flipline?



out west when they had to remove the protesters out of trees, they used chains as fliplines , sure it was for saftey reasons


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## pdqdl (Mar 30, 2012)

FanOFatherNash said:


> out west when they had to remove the protesters out of trees, they used chains as fliplines , sure it was for saftey reasons



Nonsense.

Cable fliplines are common, easy to use, and knife-proof. Apart from fling crap (literally) at the authorities trying to evict them, the tree huggers were not trying to hurt anyone. Had they brandished a knife or other cutting tools at anyone, a sniper probably would have dropped them like flies.

If anyone was using a chain as a flipline, it's because they didn't know about good cable fliplines.


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