# proper pruning 75' tulip



## murphy4trees (Nov 20, 2011)

tulip tip prune .mov - YouTube

Here's the latest effort at promoting proper pruning technique... It was originally intended to inform homeowners about good pruning and the harm that improper pruning can do.. A bit repetitive but overall a good low budget effort.

I have another one coming, which was shot right after an early snow storm did a lot of damage, as many trees were still in full leaf..


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## superjunior (Nov 20, 2011)

yep, it's not easy to get out on those ends. 
Good vid and good example of proper crown reduction


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## NCTREE (Nov 21, 2011)

So what did you do before you got that 75' bucket? Your right you must have a pretty talented climber to get out on all those branch tips. Talk about a time consuming job.


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## murphy4trees (Nov 21, 2011)

which points to the tendency for tree services to prune trees to the limit of their level of skill.. if they don't have the skill and/or equipment to get to the branch tips they just cut it where they can reach.. Leads to a lot of inferior pruning technique..


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## lxt (Nov 21, 2011)

A lot of "lip service" about proper pruning, honestly the original state of the tree did not look that bad....would have been better to see how the end result was achieved!

I know alot of guys in my area that do improper work, always good to see someone promoting the good side! Nice small tulip & a good vid for the novice!



LXT................


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

The only issue is how you condemn other tree services , alot of work done on trees are for a purpose whether it makes sense or you agree .... Maybe from now on you can just talk about your expertise and maybe not bad mouth the other guy , just saying Good Video though very inciteful


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> The only issue is how you condemn other tree services , alot of work done on trees are for a purpose whether it makes sense or you agree .... Maybe from now on you can just talk about your expertise and maybe not bad mouth the other guy , just saying Good Video though very inciteful



Not badmouth the other guy? What, are you stoopit? That's the whole ####ing point of it all. Jeez, where you get yer arbor license anyway? Ya got to get up on them tips or it no good.


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

yeah, its says " prune large poplar" on the work order. What does it mean, what does it mean? I think it means a lot of pain and suffering for all involved. That includes the tree. And I hate working on trunk scalped trees.
I find it easier to climb through the tips than to stand on the trunk and huck off big limbs, strange I know. 

Nice tree there Dan.


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> which points to the tendency for tree services to prune trees to the limit of their level of skill.. if they don't have the skill and/or equipment to get to the branch tips they just cut it where they can reach.. Leads to a lot of inferior pruning technique..



that is a very annoying and maddening tendency however I have a tendency to prune trees to the limit of the client's budget... which has a tendecy to go a little further if you are not up to yer neck loading wood from a prune job.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Not badmouth the other guy? What, are you stoopit? That's the whole ####ing point of it all. Jeez, where you get yer arbor license anyway? Ya got to get up on them tips or it no good.



Dan take your meds , and your lucky I understand Ebonics because otherwise you would have stumped " me ..... Get it" stumped" me , just seems that a video tutorial video can be made without bad muffing the "uther Guy" I am surry tat dun't mack any cense to ya ....


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

Any way I huge tulip just begs to meet the chipper anyway , damn lighting rods they are and if tat wittle bit uf pruning heelps with a twister I wuld be mitty suprized


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

NCTREE said:


> So what did you do before you got that 75' bucket? Your right you must have a pretty talented climber to get out on all those branch tips. Talk about a time consuming job.



Oh stop. One day you will actually be just as fat as Murph. And it will be good. I know, its hard to believe but its comin. Me? I am not some much concerned about my waistline when I reach that age but I am gonna have to dye my hair. Dam! Murph, you have to wash that #### out or sumpthing. 

Its true, while the rest of us are bustin ass, Murphy is eating lunch. You know he stops for a plate of mousaka ev'ry day. probably has a salad too.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Oh stop. One day you will actually be just as fat as Murph. And it will be good. I know, its hard to believe but its comin. Me? I am not some much concerned about my waistline when I reach that age but I am gonna have to dye my hair. Dam! Murph, you have to wash that #### out or sumpthing.
> 
> Its true, while the rest of us are bustin ass, Murphy is eating lunch. You know he stops for a plate of mousaka ev'ry day. probably has a salad too.



Hopefully Murph don't stop too short your head will go right up his ass , and the only thing that will save ya is if someone pulls ya out by your mullet ........ Oh I am sorry your not the one with the mullet ....


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Dan take your meds , and your lucky I understand Ebonics because otherwise you would have stumped " me ..... Get it" stumped" me , just seems that a video tutorial video can be made without bad muffing the "uther Guy" I am surry tat dun't mack any cense to ya ....



there comes a point where it just cannot be helped and you end up "badmouthing the other guy". It just comes out as truth. You don't mean to start a conversation along those lines, sometimes you are sorry you brought it up... like when you look at a client's tree and automatically say" Whoever did that kinda really ####ed it up, now I gotta think extra hard about what to do."

I was just looking at a job where the big pops had been trunk topped 20 years ago. The guy wanted me to just get a few low limbs off every tree. My best course of action was to get out. Good job for rick's. ricks' wrecks tree service. Ha ha. And rick did it too. And I am glad. relieved.


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Hopefully Murph don't stop too short your head will go right up his ass , and the only thing that will save ya is if someone pulls ya out by your mullet ........ Oh I am sorry your not the one with the mullet ....



I was jess poking at him, most likely it pissed him off, NC too! :msp_tongue: and i know you eat that mousaka too.:smile2:

I wonder if Slayer is still down here?


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

treemandan said:


> there comes a point where it just cannot be helped and you end up "badmouthing the other guy". It just comes out as truth. You don't mean to start a conversation along those lines, sometimes you are sorry you brought it up... like when you look at a client's tree and automatically say" Whoever did that kinda really ####ed it up, now I gotta think extra hard about what to do."
> 
> I was just looking at a job where the big pops had been trunk topped 20 years ago. The guy wanted me to just get a few low limbs off every tree. My best course of action was to get out. Good job for rick's. ricks' wrecks tree service. Ha ha. And rick did it too. And I am glad. relieved.



Ohhhh boy now your bad muffing "KID" rick .....


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Any way I huge tulip just begs to meet the chipper anyway , damn lighting rods they are and if tat wittle bit uf pruning heelps with a twister I wuld be mitty suprized



I think more should have come off too.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

treemandan said:


> I was jess poking at him, most likely it pissed him off, NC too! :msp_tongue: and i know you eat that mousaka too.:smile2:
> 
> I wonder if Slayer is still down here?



He was prolly standing along side of him but the camera don't pick anything up under 3ft....


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Ohhhh boy now your bad muffing "KID" rick .....



Yeah. But if I wanted I could still get a job.


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## NCTREE (Nov 21, 2011)

As I see it most customers aren't gonna spend sixteen to two grand on a prune job for one tree. That prune job would have taken a day to do it right if you wre climbing. If I told the custy how much he probably would have either laughed or told me to just cut the ####ing thing down. Hell! I have problems getting 600 bucks for a nice reduction prune on a large bradford let alone an 80' poplar. 

Not like im interested in knowing what you charge murph but what ja get for a prune job like that?


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## treeseer (Nov 21, 2011)

NCTREE said:


> Not like im interested in knowing what you charge murph but what ja get for a prune job like that?



Ox E. Moron, :alien2: don't feed the trolls murph.

The average climber should do that job in half a day imo. 2 words--pole clip! :msp_biggrin:

that one should be almost automatic as a lightning system sale. murph you could sell a freezer to an exkimo--you didn't sell them on some copper? 1 hr. extra to hang it.

re competition bashing yeah maybe talk about the practice not the practitioners.


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## lxt (Nov 21, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Ox E. Moron, :alien2: don't feed the trolls murph.
> 
> The average climber should do that job in half a day imo. 2 words--pole clip! :msp_biggrin:
> 
> ...





WTF........... 1/2 day uh?? for climbing it? why dont you post a Vid showing how an "Average" climber can do end tip prunings on a Tulip Polar in a half day!!! Lightning system.......in a Tulip Poplar? LMFAO around here a Tulip is a junk tree & susceptible to break outs, large dead widow makers & a haven for black ants............

Pole Clip? well I wanna see you fish your pole clip through a tulip to get to the ends & I want those proper cuts you are always talking bout too........!

Truly a post from someone who has never been in a decent sized tulip tree & BTW, the copper to put in that would be worth more than the tree itself...LOL


I almost forgot.......it took Murph darn near 1/2 a day to talk bout proper pruning of the dam thing, let alone climbing & working it in such time!

LXT..................


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## thepheniox (Nov 21, 2011)

I would say just over half day as well.


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## lxt (Nov 21, 2011)

thepheniox said:


> I would say just over half day as well.





wheres your video? & NC said to do it properly not to butcher it!!!



LXT..........


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## Zale (Nov 21, 2011)

In my area, that is not a large Tulip poplar. 4 hours for one climber, 1 hour clean up would be reasonable.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

Zale said:


> In my area, that is not a large Tulip poplar. 4 hours for one climber, 1 hour clean up would be reasonable.



Its a tulip tree not a tulip poplar please do your research before attempting to contribute just saying


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## NCTREE (Nov 21, 2011)

I wanna see some vids... 4 hrs!... better yet I wanna see some before and after pics of a 4 hr climb on a poplar reduction prune and lets see some close ups of those cuts.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> I was disappointed that Murph’s 75ft. soil compactor didn’t make the video.



That wouldn't happen cause it has marshmallows tires mounted on kittens paws , and that 29k truck doesn't even fold over the blades of grass .....


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## treeseer (Nov 21, 2011)

Zale said:


> In my area, that is not a large Tulip poplar. 4 hours for one climber, 1 hour clean up would be reasonable.



They get a lot bigger in NC, etc. mine is 90+' and 18' from the house. Yes they need pruning more often than the oaks over the house, but the species is reliably solid, if cared for. 16 years here, 2 hurricanes, lots of ice, no major damage.

You want a 4-hour video? sounds boring. :wink2:

1 1/2" cuts do not all need to be perfectly "clean". collars not a huge deal when the tissue is very young.

ok i'll be up a ~100' tulip next week, and post pics of cuts made 4 years ago. 

Is there a point in criticizing common name usage?

Copper is not that expensive, and LPS is a good investment in a tree that close to the house. It can protect your house from lightning. Lightning protection products and lightning rods from Independent Protection Co. will tell you parts price--<$500 for that trees. compare that to removal cost + loss of asset. cheap insurance. :msp_biggrin:


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## Zale (Nov 21, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Its a tulip tree not a tulip poplar please do your research before attempting to contribute just saying



So sorry, I meant Liriodendron tulipifera. Good enough?


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> I was disappointed that Murph’s 75ft. soil compactor didn’t make the video.



I didn't say it, you did but yeah, I'll say. I would have to sling a roadway down if I was going to jockey a big truck around a tree. That IS "too much like work" for me, I'll take the climb.


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## treemandan (Nov 21, 2011)

Zale said:


> So sorry, I meant Liriodendron tulipifera. Good enough?



well I would see a medical doctor then, we can't help you, we are just tree guys, let us know how you make out, whatever it is, it sounds bad, is it contaigous?


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 22, 2011)

Zale said:


> So sorry, I meant Liriodendron tulipifera. Good enough?



Yea wikipedia treated ya just fine .....


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## superjunior (Nov 22, 2011)

treemandan said:


> I didn't say it, you did but yeah, I'll say. I would have to sling a roadway down if I was going to jockey a big truck around a tree. That IS "too much like work" for me, I'll take the climb.



not me. I'd probably have to set the truck up 2 or 3 times but have it done in maybe 3 hrs. I'd rather have my groundies move some plywood around then have to do that job by hand. maybe old age is catching up with me..


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## lxt (Nov 22, 2011)

treeseer said:


> You want a 4-hour video? sounds boring. :wink2:
> 
> 1 1/2" cuts do not all need to be perfectly "clean". collars not a huge deal when the tissue is very young.
> 
> ...




Yes, we want to see "You" do a Tulip of similar size with yer pole clip in 1/2 a day

Now...... clean cuts only need be done on anything over an inch & a half..

We dont wanna see cuts on a tree from 4 years ago................we wanna see you up there making those cuts! C`mon back up what you say can be done!

Like I said copper @ <$500.00 is worth more than the tree, I hardly consider a tulip an asset, best thing to do would of been take that soft wooded bastid down..............one can only hope lightning would hit it!!! Now get that work vid up & we will compare the Seer to AA....see how the two match up........Im gonna put my money on AA




LXT...............


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## murphy4trees (Nov 22, 2011)

HAHA..
Glad you all are having a good time with this one.. things at AS were getting mighty quiet..

I put mats down anytime I put a truck on the lawn, except hard as concrete summer days and frozen tundra winter wonderlands.. 

Did that entire tree .. up and down in 70 minutes.. didn't take long to build the bridge, and did all the pruning on one set-up.

Original price was $330-370??? as part of a total package of 2500-2700, which I let him talk me down to $2200.. so didn't make much more than $300 on that tree... 

I also would agree that the tree didn't really "need" to be pruned.. however, the client was pretty insistent that he wanted it pruned.. SO I did it, to save it from the other butchers out there, who would have hacked it up worse than it already was..

That was a REALLY cheap price.. the guy got a good deal.. I knocked on his door to see if we could use his driveway to access a downed tree in another clien't backyard. He told me he had been using Kinkiner for years.. Kinkiner has a reputation for doing really low budget work, so I knew I'd have to come in low to get him to make a change.. I still made a fair $ on the job, but only because of the equipment... 

I think it is important to educate homeowners about proper care for their trees, and how much damage can be done by improper pruning. Its very frustrating to see the widespread damage done by companies that butcher trees with iimpunity for 20 plus years.. I AM going to speak out against them and their practices every chance I get!

There is a company called BIG WOODS.. they cut every lower limb off every tree on every proerpty they can talk the homeowners into haveing their trees "pruned".. Hey slam big stressed oaks, doing 35% plus prunes, making many large cuts on the trunks, etc.

Ricks is still making flush cuts on crown raisings, making 12" plus cuts perfectly flsuh with the trunk.. That is a multi-million dollar cmapny.. why can't they hire one arborist that knows how to prune trees... BECASUE THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT TREES! Its all about the money.. I've heard it even from my friends that do tree work.. A couple of great guys that regularly elevate everthing in sight and spike prunes, never hit the branch tips etc.. ONe doesn't care.. one dosn't know any better..


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## superjunior (Nov 22, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> I put mats down anytime I put a truck on the lawn, except hard as concrete summer days and frozen tundra winter wonderlands..



what kind of mats do you use?


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## thepheniox (Nov 22, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> HAHA..
> Glad you all are having a good time with this one.. things at AS were getting mighty quiet..
> 
> I put mats down anytime I put a truck on the lawn, except hard as concrete summer days and frozen tundra winter wonderlands..
> ...



Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 22, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> HAHA..
> Glad you all are having a good time with this one.. things at AS were getting mighty quiet..
> 
> I put mats down anytime I put a truck on the lawn, except hard as concrete summer days and frozen tundra winter wonderlands..
> ...


Hey Murph you still got that angry midget with ya or did the circus want him back ????


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## Zale (Nov 22, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea wikipedia treated ya just fine .....



You are correct. I did look it up to get the correct spelling. If you look further, you will see that Tulip poplar is one of the common names to describe this species.


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## limbwalker54 (Nov 22, 2011)

Zale, not to rain on your parade but I don't think this thread is about the common name "Tulip Poplar" vs. "Tuliptree". However if you wanna be specific, the "Tulip Poplar" is not really a poplar.....which would have the genus Populus.

Ok I'm done, we are ending this conversation, and Murph, nice vid on the RIGHT stuff. 

I have a few friends who's names will remain unnamed that don't give a rats a** about the trees they work on or even the ones in the park....and it pisses me off. I do my best to educate my clients, and anyone else who asks, on proper tree care. 

Oh, and next week I have three of those Tuliptrees to "get them tips" on.......and while I'm up there I think I'll eat some lunch.......

You can do them a lot faster if you set a few ropes ahead of time and know how to footlock.....


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## treemandan (Nov 22, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea wikipedia treated ya just fine .....



Oh see, they have a cure for it.


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## treemandan (Nov 22, 2011)

NCTREE said:


> As I see it most customers aren't gonna spend sixteen to two grand on a prune job for one tree. That prune job would have taken a day to do it right if you wre climbing. If I told the custy how much he probably would have either laughed or told me to just cut the ####ing thing down. Hell! I have problems getting 600 bucks for a nice reduction prune on a large bradford let alone an 80' poplar.
> 
> Not like im interested in knowing what you charge murph but what ja get for a prune job like that?



that would have to be a very large bradford.


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## treeseer (Nov 23, 2011)

treemandan said:


> that would have to be a very large bradford.



Right, Dan. Factchecking posts/rants at AS can be a full-time job. :fart: :waaaht:

Other Dan, pheniox may be an uncommon sort of draft animal, but he is right about throwing stones and outing competing companies by name. You belong on a higher road, brother. :smile2:


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## NCTREE (Nov 23, 2011)

treemandan said:


> that would have to be a very large bradford.



yes it was...up over lines and a house some climbing involved and lots of pole clipping. I like to take my time on reductions like that i mean yeah I could have done for less but then my quality of work will have to go down, it is what it is if price is a concern when pruning trees you get what you paid for.


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## murphy4trees (Nov 23, 2011)

superjunior said:


> what kind of mats do you use?



I have alturnamats... (10), 3'x8', and (4) 18"x8'.. mostly use the slim ones for the stump grinder..I also scavenge odd pieces of plywood from dumpsters..


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## murphy4trees (Nov 23, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Dan, pheniox may be an uncommon sort of draft animal, but he is right about throwing stones and outing competing companies by name. You belong on a higher road, brother. :smile2:




Please explain that way of thinking.. there needs to be some accountability for improper pruning.. To the extent this is a self-regulated industry, how is that supposed to work if we all keep our mouths shut about the atrocious pruning we see.. When a customer tells me she has gotten a cheaper price.. I ask "from whom"?.. I'll be honest with her if I know the comapny's work.. If it is Rick and the job involves pruning, I'll recommend strongly against that.. if it is a company that does good work, I'll be honest about that too and assure her that I think they'll do a nice job and that is a good price etc..


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## superjunior (Nov 23, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> I have alturnamats... (10), 3'x8', and (4) 18"x8'.. mostly use the slim ones for the stump grinder..I also scavenge odd pieces of plywood from dumpsters..



I've been looking into the alturnamats, their website doesn't list prices or weight. How much do those things weigh compared to plywood and how much do they run?


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## Metals406 (Nov 23, 2011)

Daniel, I sub to your channel and just watched your video. I got a question.

If you have to (or want to) remove a larger branch, or branches, and you cut them back within 1/2" of the collar, can wound dressing or wax help seal the wound (if done immediately), and encourage compartmentalization?

Or are you screwed to remove big branches all together, and rot will eventually inundate the trunk?


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## Metals406 (Nov 23, 2011)

Anyone? It was a serious question.


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## murphy4trees (Nov 24, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> Daniel, I sub to your channel and just watched your video. I got a question.
> 
> If you have to (or want to) remove a larger branch, or branches, and you cut them back within 1/2" of the collar, can wound dressing or wax help seal the wound (if done immediately), and encourage compartmentalization?
> 
> Or are you screwed to remove big branches all together, and rot will eventually inundate the trunk?



To my knowledge drssing a wound does not help the tree to compartmentalize the wound.. dressings are used to prevent insects from spreading DED and maybe oak wilt... I don't use them as I always tell my customers to wait til winter to prune elms and we don't have oak wilt here.. 

If a customer wants a large limb removed, I always tell them it is better for the tree to leave the limb cut back to a lateral or stub. If they want the entire limb removed I explain that it will inevitably cause stem decay and destabilization, and they usually do what is best for the tree..


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## treemandan (Nov 24, 2011)

I like to put a little of this stuff on when I have to huck a big limb off, its pretty much just for asthetics.


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## millbilly (Nov 24, 2011)

I could be wrong, but I thought branchs were to be removed at there collar. After watching the video I thought I saw alot of cuts that looked like they were stubbed off. I also was under the belief that the only active growing cambium of the tree, was at the collar. To put it in a nut shell I think your misinformed about about removing lower branches is condeming a tree to death with eminate rot,decay and destruction.

Another question I have is whats the difference of removing a 1 1/2" branch with a power saw or a hand saw.


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## Metals406 (Nov 24, 2011)

Good info fellas! Nothing wrong with different opinions, especially when they're based on personal experience.

It's my understanding (and I could be misinformed), that the closer you get to the collar with your cut, the harder it is on the tree (talking big limbs here).

The reason I asked about wound sealing, is that by their own design, trees send resin, pitch, sap, to the area and attempt to seal it.

If you seal the wound for the tree immediately, I would think you would discourage insects, and rot from different fungi and other attacking agents.

It's an interesting concept that trimming to the collar is effectively dooming a tree to an earlier than natural death. . . But it would also limit the type of trimming one could offer a customer. I can see many customers not liking a 3' stob being left on the tree, and others that perhaps wouldn't care.

Speaking of Daniel's earlier post on tree trimming ethics, if you made the customer aware that trimming to near the collar could be a detriment to the tree, and they made the decision to do it anyway. . . Does one do it, or stick by your guns and refuse (thusly loosing the job)? Or do you make them sign a waiver that you're not responsible for the health of the tree after the trimming, based on their decision? That would certainly protect you from liability if they called up 5 years later all pissed-off that their tree broke at a leader crotch due to rot induced at a trimming point.

So, the further from the trunk you trim, the better the chances the tree has to compartmentalize.

Is there an acceptable ratio on a large crown reduction, for trims near the collar to branch tip trimming?

Just by reading a lot of the threads started in the tree climbing/trimming section, I can tell that you guys are very prideful of what you do, and the techniques/equipment you operate with. There's always room to learn something new though.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 24, 2011)

treemandan said:


> I like to put a little of this stuff on when I have to huck a big limb off, its pretty much just for asthetics.



It would be funny if that stuff was called Lam Balsac , why can't these guys think about a joke when making up nonsensical names anyway Just saying


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## thepheniox (Nov 24, 2011)

Wow now we have people thinking that leaving stubs is acceptable practice after watching this video and listening to misinformation about removing larger limbs.


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## Metals406 (Nov 24, 2011)

thepheniox said:


> Wow now we have people thinking that leaving stubs is acceptable practice after watching this video and listening to misinformation about removing larger limbs.



Well, put up what you know/have been taught. :msp_smile: I would be really interested to hear about your experience with trimming close to the collar, and whether you've experienced it inducing rot.

What are your thoughts on wound dressing, a "fake sap" if you will.


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## thepheniox (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm a municipal arborist. Our primary function is to maintain trees to allow for proper road and sidewalk clearance. Also minimal trimming for tree structure and deadwood. We are instructed that the grid cycle is ten years. I am completely aware that ten years is not acceptable but budgets dictate what gets done. That being said I have made my fair share of questionable cuts. Ideally these trees would have been trimmed properly for clearance at a young age unfortunately quite often they are not. So I have to remove larger lower branches before a truck rips them off causing serious damage. How the tree reacts depends on a number of circumstances. Species, vigor, size of cuts, cut placement. Quite often trees can handle this without rot being the result. My point is not that you should remove large limbs it's that depending on the situation it can be done. There are arborists out there that would criticize these cuts based on size however it had to be done. 

Proper cuts back to the branch collar is recommended as that is where a tree will be able to compartmentalize properly. Leaving stubs will not allow for complete compartmentalization. 

I'm not disagreeing with what was said in the video just not agreeing with it all. Because someone took away that stubs should be left tells me maybe the message wasn't properly presented. Also I would question some of the cuts that were made. The first close up of the cuts shows a stub. There are also lots of fire crackers up there. 

Ok, with all that said. Ideally if I was going to remove a larger limb I would do it over three years. Cutting approximately a third each year allowing for the tree to start shutting down the branch before the collar cut. In a sense the tree starts the compartmentalization process. I'm pretty sure I learned this at an Ed gilman seminar or arboriculture Canada training. Not sure which one. 

As far as using any type of sealant on cuts there has been numerous studies showing that it causes more harm than good. I would not use it. 

I am a certified arborist with the municipal specialist credentials. Also I am a certified tree worker climber specialist. I have attended two Ed Gilman seminars, two ISA conferences, various arboriculture Canada courses, two year forestry diploma, seventeen years working experience in arboriculture. I've competed at competitions and I always am on the look out to learn new info all the time.


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## Metals406 (Nov 24, 2011)

thepheniox said:


> I'm a municipal arborist. Our primary function is to maintain trees to allow for proper road and sidewalk clearance. Also minimal trimming for tree structure and deadwood. We are instructed that the grid cycle is ten years. I am completely aware that ten years is not acceptable but budgets dictate what gets done. That being said I have made my fair share of questionable cuts. Ideally these trees would have been trimmed properly for clearance at a young age unfortunately quite often they are not. So I have to remove larger lower branches before a truck rips them off causing serious damage. How the tree reacts depends on a number of circumstances. Species, vigor, size of cuts, cut placement. Quite often trees can handle this without rot being the result. My point is not that you should remove large limbs it's that depending on the situation it can be done. There are arborists out there that would criticize these cuts based on size however it had to be done.
> 
> Proper cuts back to the branch collar is recommended as that is where a tree will be able to compartmentalize properly. Leaving stubs will not allow for complete compartmentalization.
> 
> ...



Damn good insightful, information filled post. 

Now riddle me this. . . Wouldn't the three-step process also allow you to keep up with the customer? As in, you'd be there once a year to address the specific branch or branches, giving you the opportunity to look at their other trees to see how they're doing as well. It would also show the customer you are committed to the health of their tree, like 3 years worth of committed. This would invest you with the customer, giving less chance for someone else to slide in.

I think that system could be a great thing to add to a business model. Good for you, good for the tree, good for the customer.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 24, 2011)

I see stubs:rant:


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## Metals406 (Nov 24, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I see stubs:rant:



Beats seeing dead people. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (Nov 24, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> Good info fellas! Nothing wrong with different opinions, especially when they're based on personal experience.
> 
> It's my understanding (and I could be misinformed), that the closer you get to the collar with your cut, the harder it is on the tree (talking big limbs here).
> 
> ...


Some species compartmentalize others like poplar attempt to out grow their wounds its my belief these such trees could be better handled as a pollard but starting at a juvenile. After reaching maturity, I prefer reduction without stobs or selective limbs taken back to parent branch. The stability on most of the fast growers is not at their base imo its in their canopy. It boils down to site vrs species to me and many trees are where they should never have been planted. I feel the biggest contribution arborist could make is in new plantings and selection but then its just my opinion and experience in our numerous tornados.


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## Metals406 (Nov 24, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Some species compartmentalize others like poplar attempt to out grow their wounds its my belief these such trees could be better handled as a pollard but starting at a juvenile. After reaching maturity, I prefer reduction without stobs or selective limbs taken back to parent branch. The stability on most of the fast growers is not at their base imo its in their canopy. It boils down to site vrs species to me and many trees are where they should never have been planted. I feel the biggest contribution arborist could make is in new plantings and selection but then its just my opinion and experience in our numerous tornados.



Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. Some trees handle large limb removal better than others. What are you thoughts on this rot thing Rope? Have you went back to a tree where you cut some bigger limbs back to the collar, and the center of the collar showed signs of rot?

What are your thoughts on the three-step trim, over three seasons? Makes a lot of sense that it would give the tree more time to compartmentalize that particular limb.


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## thepheniox (Nov 24, 2011)

I'll take a picture of a honey locust up the street tomorrow. It had two large limbs removed years ago. Both are almost completely compartmentalized showing absolutely no rot. If you remove a tree that has old wounds slice the truck in half and see for your self how the compartmentalization is working. This is how you can find out for yourself what trees can handle cuts better than others. By no means am I saying large cuts should be made. Minimal pruning is deffinately the way to go. However sometimes you can get away with it if you have to do it.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 24, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. Some trees handle large limb removal better than others. What are you thoughts on this rot thing Rope? Have you went back to a tree where you cut some bigger limbs back to the collar, and the center of the collar showed signs of rot?
> 
> What are your thoughts on the three-step trim, over three seasons? Makes a lot of sense that it would give the tree more time to compartmentalize that particular limb.



The first concern is and should always be is species characteristics. The problem pertaining to poplar is going to be weak compartmentalization and rapid growth to any stress other than drought so imo anything done needs consideration of where the regenerative growth will be channeled. I am a fan of reduction in many cases and other than the obvious stobs, he did a fine job. My thinking and I may be in error is that if this tree was pollarded at youth then reduced back to the pods that inevitably form, it would reduce its normal tendency to to head for the stratosphere and over time could be made to be decent yard tree. In its native form however; I would feel its not an ideal choice in a landscape unless the landscape has a scale large enough to place it away from the home. Again its my opinion, others likely differ.

As far as rot from large cuts, the majority of trees I deal with are cut way back and as the grindings rot become a biologically better environment for new plantings

However; I trimmed many trees for powerline maintenance on five year intervals these cuts had lack of any fruiting bodies or conks and some actually hid the wound with callus. Before getting the wrong idea, others died and were removed, there is no one idea suitable for every site, species etc. Some of the more eye opening moments of our industry were from outside the box. However the full knowledge of the contents inside the box makes for a better informed and effective arborist.


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## treeseer (Nov 25, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> Please explain . If it is Rick and the job involves pruning, I'll recommend strongly against that.. if it is a company that does good work, I'll be honest about that too and assure her that I think they'll do a nice job and that is a good price etc..



well okay come to think of it I do the same
But I try to leave the malpruners room to grow too

Re collars at branch origins being the only or always the best places for compartmentalization...

That is unfortunate misinformation
Dogma with no scientific basis
The same BPZ is present at other nodes


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## Metals406 (Nov 25, 2011)

treeseer said:


> well okay come to think of it I do the same
> But I try to leave the malpruners room to grow too
> 
> Re collars at branch origins being the only or always the best places for compartmentalization...
> ...



Then it would boil down to pure aesthetics and personal preference then, no?


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## thepheniox (Nov 25, 2011)

Heres a few photos of an ash that has compartmentalized some larger cuts just fine. The photo that is not fully healed over shows no sign of rot what so ever.


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## NCTREE (Nov 25, 2011)

thepheniox said:


> Heres a few photos of an ash that has compartmentalized some larger cuts just fine. The photo that is not fully healed over shows no sign of rot what so ever.



ash seems to be one of those species locust too


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## Metals406 (Nov 25, 2011)

Seems as though youth plays a huge factor with these trims.

The younger the tree, the better. . . A 300 year old Maple, may not take to a substantial reduction like a 17 y.o Maple.

I know that's very true for conifers, if they're kept up from youth, the crown will mature into what you intended years before.


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## forestryworks (Nov 25, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea wikipedia treated ya just fine .....



You the expert dendrologist? :monkey:


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## ropensaddle (Nov 25, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> Vitality I believe is the term, not necessarily age but often age related. I idea is to not have dead wood(stubs, wounds not closed) in the tree which becomes a food source for insects and microrganisms(fungi).


Mature trees slow down growth and save energy for defense against stress! I am a fan of trimming less than recommended 25 percent rule on my aged specimens unless its deadwood . At that period in the trees life it should be near ideal on its own and I attempt to remind myself, trees seemed to do just fine on their own for eons!
So in my aged specimens I try to just focus on dead wooding and very light trimming if even necessary and put more emphasis on mulching requirements and soil & water related issues.


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## murphy4trees (Nov 25, 2011)

millbilly said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought branchs were to be removed at there collar. After watching the video I thought I saw alot of cuts that looked like they were stubbed off. I also was under the belief that the only active growing cambium of the tree, was at the collar. To put it in a nut shell I think your misinformed about about removing lower branches is condeming a tree to death with eminate rot,decay and destruction.
> 
> Another question I have is whats the difference of removing a 1 1/2" branch with a power saw or a hand saw.





The stubs were only left in very small wood on branch tips.. no big deal.. the large branches removed on a poor compartmentalizer are a serious problem, that may take 10-40 years to fully manifest..

When cutting small limbs with a handsaw, there is a much greater chance of splittling the limb.. for whatever reason, ther kef of the chainsaw gives a little room for the branch to move enough to prevent splitting..


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 26, 2011)

I was splitting black walnut yesterday and came across this pruning cut made along time ago and I think this compartmentalized just fine and this was at least a 4" cut ....View attachment 208649


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 26, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> You the expert dendrologist? :monkey:



Thank you ....


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## Metals406 (Nov 26, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> I was splitting black walnut yesterday and came across this pruning cut made along time ago and I think this compartmentalized just fine and this was at least a 4" cut ....View attachment 208649



Is all that black rot or dirt?


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## TreeSurfer (Nov 26, 2011)

Here in the tropics, tree crews get away with murder because of all the rainfall we get. 2 out of every 5 trees have been topped or flush cut severely but they are still growing. Now does that make it right because they are still alive? Absolutely Not! They still have rotten insides and stubs that the branch collar will not ever seal over. Just because the tree is growing still doesn't mean its healthy.
What pisses me off are those guys that call themselves Arborists but don't follow the pruning standards that were developed by years and years of research with 100's of tree guys, not some hotshot who thinks because he makes videos hes a know it all. Sorry daniel but your not gonna change anything here with your videos. Who are you trying to impress here because i think the ISA isn't listening to you?


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 26, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> Is all that black rot or dirt?



Well it was fresh split so there was a bit of moisture there from the open cavity , but the rot stops shallow enough, there was a outside piece of that I didn't get a chance to steal a pic of , that was more of the center maybe 5" in .... but that trunk was at least 30" and the cut was low on the crown and large ... I prolly coulda taken a hammer and knocked it right out clean and healed


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## TreeSurfer (Nov 26, 2011)

anyone else find it funny that daniel and denial are similar? hmmmm.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 26, 2011)

TreeSurfer said:


> Here in the tropics, tree crews get away with murder because of all the rainfall we get. 2 out of every 5 trees have been topped or flush cut severely but they are still growing. Now does that make it right because they are still alive? Absolutely Not! They still have rotten insides and stubs that the branch collar will not ever seal over. Just because the tree is growing still doesn't mean its healthy.
> What pisses me off are those guys that call themselves Arborists but don't follow the pruning standards that were developed by years and years of research with 100's of tree guys, not some hotshot who thinks because he makes videos hes a know it all. Sorry daniel but your not gonna change anything here with your videos. Who are you trying to impress here because i think the ISA isn't listening to you?



Lmfao I at first thought the same of ole murph. I think he means well with his videos but I always thought he reminded me of the old Asplundh safety guy. I finally see its just he wants to feel he is teaching and thats fine in 101 thread. He is a good tree man but I get a kick out of his self appointed act


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## thepheniox (Nov 26, 2011)

James the narcoleptic tree cutter also has some pretty good advice on YouTube as well. He mostly just does removals though. I'd post a link but my wife isn't here to show me how.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 26, 2011)

thepheniox said:


> James the narcoleptic tree cutter also has some pretty good advice on YouTube as well. He mostly just does removals though. I'd post a link but my wife isn't here to show me how.



Lol I put murph on a way higher keel than james the narc, ole james going to die if he doesn't quit. I will say it would be hard to make a training video without looking sorta lame to peers. I don't know if he is attempting to beat his chest or just thinking he needs to help but I still get a kick out of it.


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## thepheniox (Nov 26, 2011)

I also put murph way ahead of James. But I couldnt resist.


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## treemandan (Nov 26, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> It would be funny if that stuff was called Lam Balsac , why can't these guys think about a joke when making up nonsensical names anyway Just saying



Well, we can pretend its called that Ok?


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## treemandan (Nov 26, 2011)

I dunno, it seems that even though the tree comparts the rot is still in there rotting. 

And if you keep stripping lower branches you end up with something resembling an orange being supported by a toothpick. If you don't understand what I mean just think about how your last hangover felt... the orange being yer head, the toothpick yer neck. A little wobbly to say the least. I think of some of the pruning I do as " stormproofing".

And once you huck off major limbs from the lower portion the top responds by growing more. That is usually undersirable.

I mean, hey, if the limb gotta go its gotta go but to prune back the lower, thin the upper to let light hit the lower encourages the lower to grow more upright rather than outstretched. 

A tree is kinda like a big shrub. If you could do to a tree what you could do to a shrub then you would but many have problems getting to the tips of a tree...Hell, many have problems getting to the tips of a shrub.


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## TreeSurfer (Nov 26, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol I put murph on a way higher keel than james the narc, ole james going to die if he doesn't quit. I will say it would be hard to make a training video without looking sorta lame to peers. I don't know if he is attempting to beat his chest or just thinking he needs to help but I still get a kick out of it.



as long as he doesnt make a instructional video with anything to do with palms, ill be fine. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Metals406 (Nov 26, 2011)

So, on Daniel's tree there, where he trimmed the tips and left stobs. . . Would y'all bring it back to the fork instead?

I know when trimming conifer, you have to be really careful you don't get into old wood, and stay in new wood.


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## thepheniox (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes cut back to the forks not leaving stubs.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 26, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> So, on Daniel's tree there, where he trimmed the tips and left stobs. . . Would y'all bring it back to the fork instead?
> 
> I know when trimming conifer, you have to be really careful you don't get into old wood, and stay in new wood.



Yes back to a fork large enough to carry on apical dominance but likely in this case murph had no such lateral and decided the small stobs would be ok. However; in his photos I did see stubs with a lateral in view which is why i mentioned stubs. When you come here acting like a teacher you should remember to remove stubs imo.


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## pdqdl (Nov 27, 2011)

Murph, you have way too much experience under your belt for me to be too critical, but...

It's a lot easier to sell tip thinning on a big tree, when your big bucket truck doesn't get into the interior too well and the job is bid cheap on a tree that doesn't need much work anyway. I prefer to see the middle of the tree worked just as carefully as the tips. Yours looks like it got the skimpy end of the careful pruning treatment when you got away from the tips.

My biggest complaint about the majority of trimming in my area is all the "lion-tailing" that leaves no scaffold to the tree at all. So keep preaching the good service, just try to show us a better example. ok?


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## treemandan (Nov 27, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Yes back to a fork large enough to carry on apical dominance but likely in this case murph had no such lateral and decided the small stobs would be ok. However; in his photos I did see stubs with a lateral in view which is why i mentioned stubs. When you come here acting like a teacher you should remember to remove stubs imo.



A pickle?


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## treemandan (Nov 27, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Murph, you have way too much experience under your belt for me to be too critical, but...
> 
> It's a lot easier to sell tip thinning on a big tree, when your big bucket truck doesn't get into the interior too well and the job is bid cheap on a tree that doesn't need much work anyway. I prefer to see the middle of the tree worked just as carefully as the tips. Yours looks like it got the skimpy end of the careful pruning treatment when you got away from the tips.
> 
> My biggest complaint about the majority of trimming in my area is all the "lion-tailing" that leaves no scaffold to the tree at all. So keep preaching the good service, just try to show us a better example. ok?




Sheeit! Howz bout YOU show us a better example... OK? 

Like I said: We are trying to do something with positive effects, avoid the negative while being constrained by the clients budget. I have no idea what you do.

But you all know me, sure I'm a little shameless... and I use the handsaw with the motor on it. Stubs? Got that too. See fer yersef.


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## treemandan (Nov 27, 2011)

The thing was hammered by the halloween snow storm. We can talk about what is right, what is wrong and how much its gonna cost til we are blue in the face. You can change your perspective but you can't change the perspective of facts. Well, maybe you could if you shuffle down to the political section but i wouldn't know nothing about that.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 27, 2011)

Poor murphy , guys comes with a incredibly genius video on proper pruning of a tulip to the point where he pruned it so well that you Can't possibly even see a difference in it and all you volchers have to say is "ya left stubs" I bet he doesn't get this kinda razzing on the TB ...


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 27, 2011)

treemandan said:


> The thing was hammered by the halloween snow storm. We can talk about what is right, what is wrong and how much its gonna cost til we are blue in the face. You can change your perspective but you can't change the perspective of facts. Well, maybe you could if you shuffle down to the political section but i wouldn't know nothing about that.



That tree has a nasty and I bet smelly smelly crotch ya know from all that water festering in it and all ..


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## treemandan (Nov 27, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> That tree has a nasty and I bet smelly smelly crotch ya know from all that water festering in it and all ..



Well the board I nailed up should take care of that.:msp_rolleyes:


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## millbilly (Nov 27, 2011)

treemandan said:


> The thing was hammered by the halloween snow storm. We can talk about what is right, what is wrong and how much its gonna cost til we are blue in the face. You can change your perspective but you can't change the perspective of facts. Well, maybe you could if you shuffle down to the political section but i wouldn't know nothing about that.



That was a great job on that tree Dan. Get the money for the prune. My son always wants to remove remove remove, I only want to prune what needs to be done. The reason being once you remove the tree it is no longer your cash cow.

I can't believe they didn't want it taken down looking at the crotch


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 27, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Well the board I nailed up should take care of that.:msp_rolleyes:



as long as the board is pressure treated and ya used ten penny nails ya should be good .....


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 27, 2011)

millbilly said:


> That was a great job on that tree Dan. Get the money for the prune. My son always wants to remove remove remove, I only want to prune what needs to be done. The reason being once you remove the tree it is no longer your cash cow.
> 
> I can't believe they didn't want it taken down looking at the crotch



Ya can't take down all the nasty crotches of this world , there are laws protecting that sort of behavior ...:msp_unsure:


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## Metals406 (Nov 27, 2011)

Do y'all ever try and sell your customers on a "do-over"? Meaning, a removal and replant of a new tree, something from a nursery that's already 15' tall.

Like on that split piece-0-crap above. If they're concerned about losing a tree, ya sell them on a replant. Don't Chinese Elm grow like 18" a year? I'm sure they're not the only fast growing tree. Or sell them on a hardier species for the area, that requires less maintenance, is less susceptible to storm damage, disease, bugs, etc.

That crotch is a split waiting to happen, like on their kid or car.

How many of you do planting, especially if the customers concern with removal is the lack of a tree in that spot?


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## treemandan (Nov 27, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> Do y'all ever try and sell your customers on a "do-over"? Meaning, a removal and replant of a new tree, something from a nursery that's already 15' tall.
> 
> Like on that split piece-0-crap above. If they're concerned about losing a tree, ya sell them on a replant. Don't Chinese Elm grow like 18" a year? I'm sure they're not the only fast growing tree. Or sell them on a hardier species for the area, that requires less maintenance, is less susceptible to storm damage, disease, bugs, etc.
> 
> ...



Dude, those people do not have the money for that. Few people do. The people that do are the people who have been robbing you blind and they just get the mexicans to do it cause any other way costs to much.

does anyone think ole Murphy is stupid enough to do 600 dollars worth of work for 375?


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## Metals406 (Nov 27, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Dude, those people do not have the money for that. Few people do. The people that do are the people who have been robbing you blind and they just get the mexicans to do it cause any other way costs to much.
> 
> does anyone think ole Murphy is stupid enough to do 600 dollars worth of work for 375?



Ah, just thinking out loud.

I'd still push'em to remove that tree, even if they paid in a couple chickens and a coon hound. That thing's a turd.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 27, 2011)

I had a really nice old lady pay me with lottery tickets and lemonade once ... I won 4.75$ too so it wasn't completely free ....


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## superjunior (Nov 27, 2011)

Metals406 said:


> Do y'all ever try and sell your customers on a "do-over"? Meaning, a removal and replant of a new tree, something from a nursery that's already 15' tall.
> 
> Like on that split piece-0-crap above. If they're concerned about losing a tree, ya sell them on a replant. Don't Chinese Elm grow like 18" a year? I'm sure they're not the only fast growing tree. Or sell them on a hardier species for the area, that requires less maintenance, is less susceptible to storm damage, disease, bugs, etc.
> 
> ...



we do it all the time. 
doubles the price of a removal, your missing out big time if you don't suggest this to your customers ..


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## superjunior (Nov 27, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Dude, those people do not have the money for that. Few people do. The people that do are the people who have been robbing you blind and they just get the mexicans to do it cause any other way costs to much.


sorry, but your way off..maybe your not marketing yourself the right way?


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## ropensaddle (Nov 27, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Poor murphy , guys comes with a incredibly genius video on proper pruning of a tulip to the point where he pruned it so well that you Can't possibly even see a difference in it and all you volchers have to say is "ya left stubs" I bet he doesn't get this kinda razzing on the TB ...



Lol vulture opcorn: Its only because of his self appointed teaching act and it being in the wrong forum. You should know genius, 101 is where it belongs.


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## treemandan (Nov 28, 2011)

superjunior said:


> sorry, but your way off..maybe your not marketing yourself the right way?



market? there's a market?

Really, please don't try to suck me into this kind of conversation. Just you telling me that I don't know what I know is kinda pissing me off.


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## beastmaster (Nov 28, 2011)

I hate climbing those weak ass trees, but have done many of them. Tips and all, but when your 75 ft up on a skinny limb, with a polepruner or polesaw and 6ft extension there might be a small stub here or there far out on a tip. The more pressed for time the more chance of a less then perfect end cut. Is this that wrong? maybe. Can anyone see it, doubtful. Have I ever done it? I plead the 5th.
I have done a lot of work at a botanical garden, at a university. At the request of Phd's who teach there, when ever we must remove a branch larger then 8in from the trunk(Oaks)we leave a big ugly stub at a node. The theory being that a cut that big isn't going to heal properly and cause decay in the trunk. If a 2 or 4ft stub is left, even if it develops decay, it'll prevent or slow it down from reaching the trunk. This went against my understanding of why a cut is made at a branch collar, but I now see the logic of this, though it depends a lot on the species of tree. It's still ugly as hell.
I think the bigger danger then a small stub on an end cut, is one in the improper place on the end that cause to much growth and the tips to grow back faster and heavier, and longer.
I like to think I do good work, but if I was making a video and put it on this site. I would do an extra good job knowing it was going to be pick a part.
I dislike the butchers big and small and understand where murphy is coming from.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I hate climbing those weak ass trees, but have done many of them. Tips and all, but when your 75 ft up on a skinny limb, with a polepruner or polesaw and 6ft extension there might be a small stub here or there far out on a tip. The more pressed for time the more chance of a less then perfect end cut. Is this that wrong? maybe. Can anyone see it, doubtful. Have I ever done it? I plead the 5th.
> I have done a lot of work at a botanical garden, at a university. At the request of Phd's who teach there, when ever we must remove a branch larger then 8in from the trunk(Oaks)we leave a big ugly stub at a node. The theory being that a cut that big isn't going to heal properly and cause decay in the trunk. If a 2 or 4ft stub is left, even if it develops decay, it'll prevent or slow it down from reaching the trunk. This went against my understanding of why a cut is made at a branch collar, but I now see the logic of this, though it depends a lot on the species of tree. It's still ugly as hell.
> I think the bigger danger then a small stub on an end cut, is one in the improper place on the end that cause to much growth and the tips to grow back faster and heavier, and longer.
> I like to think I do good work, but if I was making a video and put it on this site. I would do an extra good job knowing it was going to be pick a part.
> I dislike the butchers big and small and understand where murphy is coming from.



Yeah climbing them is peta but I think he said he used a lift and there is a difference in a small stub near the bbpz and one at a tip. But yeah I get it, we have all left one where a suitable lateral did not exist. I hate leaving one but in certain cases like tip die back in some specimens it may be more detrimental drop crotching back to find lateral. The thing which seems to bring out the criticism is the teaching act, as; most here have done reductions. I was doing them in 84 and not leaving stubs mostly. I have went back to see healthy results from my early efforts. I have had the benefit of seeing many good tree men in my years and Murph could be included in that roster but in no way are we unique imo.


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## thepheniox (Nov 28, 2011)

I just don't get someone preaching about what and how he's doing something. Critizing all the other hacks in his area. Remember he talked about how they don't care about the trees. That's why I care about the stubs. If your gonna post a video about proper pruning than post one. It would not have taken much extra time to make the proper cuts up there.


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## superjunior (Nov 28, 2011)

treemandan said:


> market? there's a market?
> 
> Really, please don't try to suck me into this kind of conversation. Just you telling me that I don't know what I know is kinda pissing me off.



sorry, didn't mean to offend..
Just sayin that their is good money to be made by planting new trees after a removal. A lot of times the customer will attempt it themselves or have their landscaper do it. I'll suggest it right on the quote for the removal and more times then not get the work


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 28, 2011)

I always suggest a new tree, and plant many off them. Sometimes they just go to big box and get them, that's ok too, as long as they are planting something. I only deal with B&B's, and from only good nursery. I need to pick up a auger for my skidloader, makes for a much easier day than diggin by hand!


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## treeseer (Nov 28, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> .... when your 75 ft up on a skinny limb, with a polepruner or polesaw and 6ft extension there might be a small stub here or there far out on a tip. The more pressed for time the more chance of a less then perfect end cut. Is this that wrong? maybe. Can anyone see it, doubtful. Have I ever done it? I plead the 5th.
> I have done a lot of work at a botanical garden, at a university. At the request of Phd's who teach there, when ever we must remove a branch larger then 8in from the trunk(Oaks)we leave a big ugly stub at a node. The theory being that a cut that big isn't going to heal properly and cause decay in the trunk. If a 2 or 4ft stub is left, even if it develops decay, it'll prevent or slow it down from reaching the trunk. AND IT ALLOWS A COLLAR TO FORM BEFORE DECAY MOVES DOWN THERE, SO A CUT CAN BE MADE AT THE ORIGIN IF THE "STUB" DECAYS. This went against my understanding of why a cut is made at a branch collar, but I now see the logic of this, though it depends a lot on the species of tree. It's still ugly as hell. ..



Only because we all have the image of The Perfect Collar Cut burned into our brains. Time to get beyond that paradigm/mental limit and check deeper into the botany behind where cuts can and should be made. Nodal cuts into young tissue may look weird at first, but there's nothing uglier than expanding heartrot from a big branch wound into old tissue. Murph's little "stubs" will not be noticeable in a few years, but heartrot is forever.

:wink2:


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## beastmaster (Nov 28, 2011)

Treeseer, Thank you for expanding my explanation. I am a old tree grunt but I try to stay open to new ideas and not base my actions on what is considered the norm but on what works and is best for the tree. I now notice how many big trunk cuts have caused a weekness in an otherwise healthy tree, where if a large stub cut at a node or lateral had been left the decay wouldn't of made it to the trunk. It looks bad to me still and to others unprofessional leaving that stub, but 10 years down the road that tree will still be structurally sound in that area. I now explane this to costumers and let them decide. I also know somewhere down the line some other tree person will more then likily bad mouth my action.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Only because we all have the image of The Perfect Collar Cut burned into our brains. Time to get beyond that paradigm/mental limit and check deeper into the botany behind where cuts can and should be made. Nodal cuts into young tissue may look weird at first, but there's nothing uglier than expanding heartrot from a big branch wound into old tissue. Murph's little "stubs" will not be noticeable in a few years, but heartrot is forever.
> 
> :wink2:



Yes it will not be noticeable except for the flurry of sucker growth resulting. Are we now saying stubs is best ? Is this going to become a type of mature pollard where we head aging trees back two seasons and go back to remove suckers ? I think imo if a suitable lateral exists I will use it but if not a nodal cut is a possibly better alternative than dropping on down to a suitable lateral. At two to three inch wood we are into a few years growth likely, so cut just outside the terminal bud scale scar at maybe two seasons might be acceptable? Anyway; it does not change the fact this specimen was not planted in the optimum location, poplar is not an ideal choice near a home imo. Now Magnolia soulangiana is a better choice there imo. 

If the tree has heart rot a stump may be a better solution and replaced by one of these

http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/2008/04/20/ic_conifers/8469df.jpg


http://www.marcumsnursery.com/descriptions/treepics/SaucerMagnolia.jpg


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## pdqdl (Nov 28, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Sheeit! Howz bout YOU show us a better example... OK?
> 
> ...



Well... I could, but you'd have to come to KC to see it. We never took pictures, so I guess it never happened, eh?

We sold light trim & deadwooding on a very good customer on her monster pin oak. It had to be 80' tall, and it was just short of 4' dbh. I had to fire the first climber that I put in it, 'cause I wouldn't let him spur up it, and he was afraid of the height before he only got halfway up the tree.

That lady made us crawl all the way out onto every limb to pull the twigs off. We were pruning all kinds of silly stuff out of that tree for only $400.00. It still took all day with very good climber in it, and yes, we lost money on that tree. BUT! The interior was trimmed and deadwooded just as well in the interior as it was at the tips.

Unlike murph, who did what the customer wanted and still made money, we did what the lady wanted and lost our ass.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Well... I could, but you'd have to come to KC to see it. We never took pictures, so I guess it never happened, eh?
> 
> We sold light trim & deadwooding on a very good customer on her monster pin oak. It had to be 80' tall, and it was just short of 4' dbh. I had to fire the first climber that I put in it, 'cause I wouldn't let him spur up it, and he was afraid of the height before he only got halfway up the tree.
> 
> ...



Lol pd sounds like a bad day bro look on the bright side no tractor got flipped 

I take it no time to make a video huh:monkey:


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## pdqdl (Nov 28, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol pd sounds like a bad day bro look on the bright side no tractor got flipped
> 
> I take it no time to make a video huh:monkey:



Youtube doesn't accept 8 hour videos. That lady was out there pointing at each little 1/2" dead twig. Heck, that tree looked pretty nice before we ever touched it. Yes! The tractors were all safe on that one.

Speaking of flipping tractors, I got a new contract to mow 22 acres for over $18,000 each cut! Two mowings per year, no less. Too bad its nothing but 2:1 slopes and cattail swamps. You should have seen me mowing the last and worst hill...sideways...with a rubber track skidsteer and a hydraulic mower. None of my guys would go near it, and I didn't really encourage them to, either. _I didn't want to pay for a rented machine._


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Youtube doesn't accept 8 hour videos. That lady was out there pointing at each little 1/2" dead twig. Heck, that tree looked pretty nice before we ever touched it. Yes! The tractors were all safe on that one.
> 
> Speaking of flipping tractors, I got a new contract to mow 22 acres for over $18,000 each cut! Two mowings per year, no less. Too bad its nothing but 2:1 slopes and cattail swamps. You should have seen me mowing the last and worst hill...sideways...with a rubber track skidsteer and a hydraulic mower. None of my guys would go near it, and I didn't really encourage them to, either. _I didn't want to pay for a rented machine._



Yeah sounds a little hairy try that on row with a 2wd tractor lol we got some steep chit too! That old long was on two wheels more than one the whole time we had it. Never rolled it but was saved a time or two by the timberline Alls I can say is I taint skeered


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## peetar (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm sorry Murph but your way off on this.

You bashed the cutting of some lower limbs becuase they were 6in.. It was totally clear that the phone and cable lines ran right across those cuts.

Would you rather have the whole tree removed, or only those limbs? It appears you did a very nice job on the crown of the tree,......but..... the HO would probably have a different answer than you if they couldn't have a phone or TV service.

You don't own the trees, the home owner does. If the HO would like a wooded lot AND a phone and a TV, they just might choose to remove a couple of lower limbs regardless of their diameter. You will probably be dead and dust before anyone gets to see what effect the line clearing cuts had to do with the death of this tree.


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## treeseer (Nov 29, 2011)

peetar said:


> I'm sorry Murph but your way off on this.
> 
> You bashed the cutting of some lower limbs becuase they were 6in.. It was totally clear that the phone and cable lines ran right across those cuts.
> 
> Would you rather have the whole tree removed, or only those limbs?



Neither--that's a bogus choice. Phone and tv are low voltage and typically do not get cleared by utilities here. If the 6" branch was alive, what risk did it pose to those lines?


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## mikegar (Nov 29, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Neither--that's a bogus choice. Phone and tv are low voltage and typically do not get cleared by utilities here. If the 6" branch was alive, what risk did it pose to those lines?


Id also like to add they could have been moved either up or down relatively easy. Id have to agree with murph on this one, its best to cut smaller. Although I find what the municipal guy had to say to be true as well. Often times we get trees that aren't ideal and we have to sometimes decide which is the lesser of the 2 evils, and which fits in with future treatment of the tree.


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## mikegar (Nov 29, 2011)

After reading the whole thread it seems some are confusing wound closure and compartmentalization.


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## treemandan (Nov 29, 2011)

mikegar said:


> After reading the whole thread it seems some are confusing wound closure and compartmentalization.



I noticed that as well.


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## treeseer (Nov 29, 2011)

treemandan said:


> I noticed that as well.



Wound closure is part of Wall 4 of compartmentalization, right?

So where is the confusion? :msp_confused:


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## Ed Roland (Nov 29, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Wound closure is part of Wall 4 of compartmentalization, right?
> 
> So where is the confusion? :msp_confused:




Are you being sarcastic? :biggrin: There remains much confusion whether callus and or subsequent woundwood is a part of wall 4.


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## mikegar (Nov 29, 2011)

Wound closure is a PART of healing but is not the whole thing. Just because the wound closes doesn't always mean the wound compartmentalized.


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## mikegar (Nov 29, 2011)

Refering back to modern arboriculture pg75. Wall 4 is a boundry that seperates the wood present at time of wounding from new wood that continues to form.


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## Ed Roland (Nov 29, 2011)

mikegar said:


> Refering back to modern arboriculture pg75. Wall 4 is a boundry that seperates the wood present at time of wounding from new wood that continues to form.



:msp_thumbup:

Shigo used "barrier zone" and "wall 4" interchangeably in his work. Many think of the "barrier zone" as being existing wood chemically altered to resist decay and "wall 4" being a physical anotomical barrier to decay layed down over the wound in subsequent growth increments. No callus/wound wood then no wall 4 or closure = wall 4. Some may believe a mix of the two or none of the above. All should aim for proper pruning cuts and let the tree sweat the myriad details of when and where it compartmentalizes.

So, my jest earlier aimed @ Guy was a wink and a nod toward the likelihood that half the participants in this thread may believe wall 4 to be a chemical barrier zone inside the tree @ time of wounding and the other half may believe wall 4 to be located inside the callus/wound wood material as it grows over the wound. 

I'm comfortable with my own understandings but many arborist remain confused about this aspect of the CODIT model.


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## pdqdl (Nov 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah sounds a little hairy try that on row with a 2wd tractor lol we got some steep chit too! That old long was on two wheels more than one the whole time we had it. Never rolled it but was saved a time or two by the timberline Alls I can say is I taint skeered



Not to hijack a thread, but I think Ed just about killed this one with that last post...

I was running 2wd tractor some years ago on a hill so steep, the battery acid poured out the top vent and ruined my 2 day old boots! (right foot only) I was po'ed, 'cause it hit the threads hard enough to completely unstitch the sole from the uppers, and I was half-way barefoot before I could drive back to the truck to rinse my boot off. So I can tell you about 2wd tractors on hills, too!


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## treeseer (Nov 29, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> ... half the participants in this thread may believe wall 4 to be a chemical barrier zone inside the tree @ time of wounding and the other half may believe wall 4 to be located inside the callus/wound wood material as it grows over the wound. ...


How about both?

Is there a practical purpose in splitting this particular hair?

That's what's confusing me the most. :help:


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## ropensaddle (Nov 29, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Not to hijack a thread, but I think Ed just about killed this one with that last post...
> 
> I was running 2wd tractor some years ago on a hill so steep, the battery acid poured out the top vent and ruined my 2 day old boots! (right foot only) I was po'ed, 'cause it hit the threads hard enough to completely unstitch the sole from the uppers, and I was half-way barefoot before I could drive back to the truck to rinse my boot off. So I can tell you about 2wd tractors on hills, too!



Lmfao well once I had to ford the river to the otherside half way into the river I found it were not as shallow as it appeared I was soaked and a gator swam in the cab with me, that sheered me


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## beastmaster (Nov 30, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> :msp_thumbup:
> 
> Shigo used "barrier zone" and "wall 4" interchangeably in his work. Many think of the "barrier zone" as being existing wood chemically altered to resist decay and "wall 4" being a physical anotomical barrier to decay layed down over the wound in subsequent growth increments. No callus/wound wood then no wall 4 or closure = wall 4. Some may believe a mix of the two or none of the above. All should aim for proper pruning cuts and let the tree sweat the myriad details of when and where it compartmentalizes.
> 
> ...


I am always half confused, But in this case I think we are discussing two different things. We have the small stubs left on some end cuts, and bigger stubs left to protect the trunk from decay. Apple and oranges.
It been to long sense Iv'e read any of Shigo's books, but I sure it was there I read how flush cuts would quickly callus over, but still allow some problem with the tree that cutting at a branch collar prevented. Could someone refresh my memory?


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## rebelman (Dec 3, 2011)

exactly. imo Murph's "proper pruning" is better only compared with flush cuts. I have seen this style cause widespread branch rot and death that would not have happened with a more natural, standard, collar cut proper pruning. I think owners of shiny new bucket trucks try 2 find ways 2 be better than climbers who do what the truly needs, not what their bucket trucks can reach. Casting doubt on collar cuts is wrong. And I think rope is the only one that mentioned mulch. Roots hold trees up. Seer rocks. My 2 cents. Peace.


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## lxt (Dec 3, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> Please explain that way of thinking.. there needs to be some accountability for improper pruning.. To the extent this is a self-regulated industry, how is that supposed to work if we all keep our mouths shut about the atrocious pruning we see.. When a customer tells me she has gotten a cheaper price.. I ask "from whom"?.. I'll be honest with her if I know the comapny's work.. If it is Rick and the job involves pruning, I'll recommend strongly against that.. if it is a company that does good work, I'll be honest about that too and assure her that I think they'll do a nice job and that is a good price etc..



I gotta agree with ya on some of this post, However.....what if a competitor company was bidding against you & strongly recommended not to use your service?.........I mean you posted a video of a bad take down which landed into another tree & you admit to having left stubs in the tulip prune, drop trees on to roads/driveways on purpose, admit to showing off, etc......So what makes your work so Great that you can bash another?

Fact is: who are you or any of us to say if anothers work is good or bad, Just because it does`nt meet your specs maybe thats what the home owners wanted!!!! you wanna self regulate? be careful keemo sabee........there may be competitors who think your work is sub par!!! 

Ropes....your posts nail it in regards to Murph & the "flurry" of suckers gonna sprout out from those stubs........Now we see all the debate from those who would talk about proper cuts & methodology............Maybe the title shoulda been: pruning a Tulip instead of "proper pruning" or the tulip stub over? Proper...............Proper to who?


LXT...............


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 3, 2011)

lxt said:


> I gotta agree with ya on some of this post, However.....what if a competitor company was bidding against you & strongly recommended not to use your service?.........I mean you posted a video of a bad take down which landed into another tree & you admit to having left stubs in the tulip prune, drop trees on to roads/driveways on purpose, admit to showing off, etc......So what makes your work so Great that you can bash another?
> 
> Fact is: who are you or any of us to say if anothers work is good or bad, Just because it does`nt meet your specs maybe thats what the home owners wanted!!!! you wanna self regulate? be careful keemo sabee........there may be competitors who think your work is sub par!!!
> 
> ...




One for each of ya! 

Jeff


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## lxt (Dec 3, 2011)

Jeff, you Dapper looking ole devil!!


LXT..........


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## Toddppm (Dec 3, 2011)

Haven't hardly ever been over there but just went and read at buzzed. Between this thread and that one it's the most entertainment on the boards since well a troll with a slip scoop showed up.


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## murphy4trees (Dec 5, 2011)

rebelman said:


> exactly. imo Murph's "proper pruning" is better only compared with flush cuts. I have seen this style cause widespread branch rot and death that would not have happened with a more natural, standard, collar cut proper pruning................. Seer rocks. My 2 cents. Peace.


That's garbage... no way are the stubs on those little cuts going to cause widespread anything.. if you think the seer rocks.. better pay some attention to his statement.... "Murph's little "stubs" will not be noticeable in a few years, but heartrot is forever."

If Guy had a problem with the job, I would take that seriously... its good to see some fairly intelligent debate here at AS. To the extent that this video spurs thought and intelligent discussion, it is doing its job.. The rest of you can KMA


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## murphy4trees (Dec 5, 2011)

lxt said:


> Ropes....your posts nail it in regards to Murph & the "flurry" of suckers gonna sprout out from those stubs........
> 
> LXT...............



Small stubs like that are almost guarenteed to die, not sucker, especially on tulip.. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about!


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## mr. holden wood (Dec 5, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> That's garbage... no way are the stubs on those little cuts going to cause widespread anything..
> Lazyness is contagious, after watching your co workers tear cuts and leave stubs all day you come home and watch a vid that boasts the same results. After awhile you start to validate it to yourself. It's just a few stubs, a tear cut and a peel whatever phuck it, on to the next tree Those small stubs may not condemn the tree but the sure look like the work of a lazy arborist.
> Not the worst job i've ever seen, I just wouldn't make a vid of that titled proper pruning, more like I pruned a tree today. Definitely not the standard for proper pruning.


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## treeseer (Dec 6, 2011)

mr. holden wood said:


> Those small stubs may not condemn the tree but the sure look like the work of a lazy arborist.


I encourage you to look again. the age of the exposed tissue makes all the difference--symplast/sapwood responds favorably, apoplast/heartwood does not, so it rots. As for sprouts, would an uncontrollable "flurry" really be expected from a 1.5" or even a 3" wound, when all those other growing points are left? I don't think so--the response would be diffused throughout more of the tree system than the location of the cut..

We reeeeeeally need to get beyond the 1986 paradigm of the branch removal cut at the collar as our definition of proper pruning. I've disagreed with murph on several things but this is not one of them. Ya gotta see the whole tree, and the long-term objective.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2011)

treeseer said:


> I encourage you to look again. the age of the exposed tissue makes all the difference--symplast/sapwood responds favorably, apoplast/heartwood does not, so it rots. As for sprouts, would an uncontrollable "flurry" really be expected from a 1.5" or even a 3" wound, when all those other growing points are left? I don't think so--the response would be diffused throughout more of the tree system than the location of the cut..
> 
> We reeeeeeally need to get beyond the 1986 paradigm of the branch removal cut at the collar as our definition of proper pruning. I've disagreed with murph on several things but this is not one of them. Ya gotta see the whole tree, and the long-term objective.



Well now are you to tell me when suitable laterals are available near the 3"area that you would rather see it stubbed off? What are the objectives? My definition of proper pruning starts with a goal. Usually it consists of pruning dead, crossing branch and weak attachments and sometimes followed by light reduction with pruner! "And yes I can prune to a lateral with my Marvin". What the goal is of the prune determines my plan. If its just health related, I do what was mentioned above . If its for vista, I have been been asked to top, or worse over raise but only after documenting proof of me informing them what the result will be. I will say from a health aspect,the stubs may not be harmful but it is not up to my standard when there were obvious laterals 8" from stub.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> Small stubs like that are almost guarenteed to die, not sucker, especially on tulip.. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about!



Hmmmm, dead wood can encourage fungus. Just tell me why he have books that explain the proper cuts if we don't intend to care if we use them? Just ouside the bbpz and I  too far in and I  too far out and I look ugly and raise bugs and fungi :rant: If the tree could talk it would say that


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## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2011)

ok folks I got to go freeze my buns being a tree undertaker the come back and mulch my own no trim necessary


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## lxt (Dec 6, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> Small stubs like that are almost guarenteed to die, not sucker, especially on tulip.. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about!




LOL,.........its ok Murph, we all know you are the only one who knows anything? NOT!!!!!! speaking of knowing what you`re talking about......tell us how elsewhere you post about reading that 4th edition?? LOL.....they love you elsewhere as much as we do?

you sir are a bladder full of hot air, a bold face liar, an accident waiting to happen & on top of all that its clear that the techniques you use & the practices you incorporate into tree work show you have no clue what you are doing let alone what you are talking about!!!

I called you & your videos "AA like"..............its worse that I thought after reading elsewhere.......you`re not like AA...you`re worse than AA



LXT................


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## treeslayer (Dec 6, 2011)

you guys make me laugh. :biggrin:


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## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> you guys make me laugh. :biggrin:



Whacha mean willis :monkey:


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## lxt (Dec 6, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Hmmmm, dead wood can encourage fungus. Just tell me why he have books that explain the proper cuts if we don't intend to care if we use them? Just ouside the bbpz and I  too far in and I  too far out and I look ugly and raise bugs and fungi :rant: If the tree could talk it would say that




Exactly right Ropes, Yeah: tulips, cherries, maples, sycamores, etc.. *you leave stubs on those trees purposely cause they are almost sure to dieback instead of sucker*

Thats the statement of a true know nothing tree man..........Hell, the utility never has a problem with sucker growth from stubs it must be different in those residential trees?? LMFAO Ive seen collar cuts sucker!!

Fact is: that Tulip is the farthest thing from a proper prune job that I have seen & I cant believe Seer is advocating that kinda pruning...........Makes me question My Certification(s) even more...........I guess creating a standard is out the window, cause certain people will debate that what they did was right even when the top minds in the industry "Say It is Im-proper"...Maybe Murph should really read those books he said he did.................2 sites cant be wrong, Ooops forgot its Murphy we are talking about...LMFAO




LXT............................


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## treeslayer (Dec 6, 2011)

lxt said:


> LOL,.........its ok Murph, we all know you are the only one who knows anything? NOT!!!!!! speaking of knowing what you`re talking about......tell us how elsewhere you post about reading that 4th edition?? LOL.....they love you elsewhere as much as we do?
> 
> you sir are a bladder full of hot air, a bold face liar, an accident waiting to happen & on top of all that its clear that the techniques you use & the practices you incorporate into tree work show you have no clue what you are doing let alone what you are talking about!!!
> 
> ...



and you are a ####ing #######.:hmm3grin2orange:
I am working with him everyday (for several weeks now), and have known him since '03. And while he is a character, he is a GOOD treeman. he does some crazy ####, but who doesn't?
He's very competent with takedowns, he's anal about safety, and if you're scared of his methods, stay on the porch with the puppies, little dawg. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## tree MDS (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh ####... it's on!! opcorn:


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## lxt (Dec 6, 2011)

treeseer said:


> I encourage you to look again. the age of the exposed tissue makes all the difference--symplast/sapwood responds favorably, apoplast/heartwood does not, so it rots. *As for sprouts, would an uncontrollable "flurry" really be expected from a 1.5" or even a 3" wound, when all those other growing points are left?* I don't think so--the response would be diffused throughout more of the tree system than the location of the cut..
> 
> We reeeeeeally need to get beyond the 1986 paradigm of the branch removal cut at the collar as our definition of proper pruning. I've disagreed with murph on several things but this is not one of them. Ya gotta see the whole tree, and the long-term objective.



You Need to actually do some tree work!!!! & to answer your question.............YES it is possible for a "flurry" of suckers to be expected, anyone who has done utility work knows this...............Funny I have only looked/Consulted with a local utility in regards to their ROW`s & the trimming being done...............prolly looked at over 2-3000 trees & wrote up the work orders personally....guess what Seer? work that was done this past March showed signs of secondary growth by October on both Collar cuts & stubs (im-proper cuts): This included all Tree species & was throughout Ohio!! Guess I should of told First Energy that 2 guys on the internet feel that leaving stubs on branch tips is ok....funny how crews were sent out on rework!!! Dam if only those stubs would of died instead of suckering.................!

Wow....for an international consultant I am surprised!!! Maybe you need to do more consulting work at home if you do any at all, BTW.... If you would like perhaps you should accompany me on some future consultations & that way I can show you instead of tell you..........the Dupont project will be ending this month.......we`ll see if you up for it?

I cant...I says I just cant believe these two do tree work @ a Professional level???? might as well take the pruning section outta the study guide too!! LMFAO



LXT..............


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## lxt (Dec 6, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> and you are a ####ing #######.:hmm3grin2orange:
> I am working with him everyday (for several weeks now), and have known him since '03. And while he is a character, he is a GOOD treeman. he does some crazy ####, but who doesn't?
> He's very competent with takedowns, he's anal about safety, and if you're scared of his methods, stay on the porch with the puppies, little dawg. :hmm3grin2orange:





LMFAO.................wow, all that from someone who couldnt reach the belt on my trousers!! I dont care how long you have worked with him................his videos crack me up along with many here & elsewhere, he is an unsafe, reckless, non educated tree man & apparently just the sort you need to learn from?

Scared of his methods................Dude they`re not worth the high chair you have to sit at!!! you keep playing with the little pony & dreaming of how the big boys really do it! Other than that I just hope ole Murph doesnt stop to make a toilet deposit...it would be un-nerving to have to remove your head from his ass every time!!

LOL........this little sopository with ears has to defend his lil buddy cause we are telling him his workmanship, attitude & overall abilities are average at best & at times sub-par............Oooooo lets give them boys a cookie!!



LXT..............


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## tree MDS (Dec 6, 2011)

I wonder if there are plumber's forums, where all the plumbers hang and get all worked up and start hating on each other.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 6, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> I wonder if there are plumber's forums, where all the plumbers hang and get all worked up and start hating on each other.



I am sure .... But we all know who lays the biggest pipe here .......... and thats a great pic of Pablo I will forward that on to him , he said that you were shaking your head afraid we were gonna cut your tape , and I am not gonna lie there was one time I almost accidentally lopped of 40ft of it LOL


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 6, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> and you are a ####ing #######.:hmm3grin2orange:
> I am working with him everyday (for several weeks now), and have known him since '03. And while he is a character, he is a good treeman. He does some crazy ####, but who doesn't?
> He's very competent with takedowns, he's anal about safety, and if you're scared of his methods, stay on the porch with the puppies, little dawg. :hmm3grin2orange:



Well that just officially landed you on the naughty list ......


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## pdqdl (Dec 6, 2011)

I sure wish there was some insightful comment that I could add to this thread that would inspire more cooperation and more appropriate dialog about proper pruning techniques.



But we all know that ain't happening, don't we?

:sword:


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## lxt (Dec 6, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> I sure wish there was some insightful comment that I could add to this thread that would inspire more cooperation and more appropriate dialog about proper pruning techniques.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree, I have taken some shots & got some back.........but I dont consider those sources to matter! perhaps instead of name calling we could engage in why this is not a proper prune job? But......if FTA & Slayer wanna a verbal insult fest....welp Ill try to refrain?????




LXT.............


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 6, 2011)

lxt said:


> I agree, I have taken some shots & got some back.........but I dont consider those sources to matter! perhaps instead of name calling we could engage in why this is not a proper prune job? But......if FTA & Slayer wanna a verbal insult fest....welp Ill try to refrain?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why ??? Taking the higher road rarely pays off , sometimes ya just gotta rollup your pants legs and jump feet first into someones ass ....


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## Metals406 (Dec 6, 2011)

Again, not a tree guy. . . But I trimmed a branch (3.5") on a Maple right near the collar, took my time so there was no tear-out, etc.

Like lxt said, sprouts around the collar started coming out almost right away. I always thought that was what they did, cut a limb at the trunk, sprouts are gonna happen. As far as I knew, I was following all the 'trimming rules' for that limb. 

Was it something I did that made it want to sprout, or is that nature of the beast?


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## Ed Roland (Dec 6, 2011)

treeseer said:


> We reeeeeeally need to get beyond the 1986 paradigm of the branch removal cut at the collar as our definition of proper pruning. I've disagreed with murph on several things but this is not one of them. Ya gotta see the whole tree, and the long-term objective.



With a current ANSI part 1 standard that does not even define the term "node"? You wont find "endocormic" in there either. If its a paradigm shift your after then try making your case more effectively. Personally, i believe cutting back to these deeply embedded anatomical structures makes good horse sense during restoration where retaining storage organs is critical but less so during mundane daily reductions.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 6, 2011)

OK, I have a question. Please chime in Guy and Doug.
You have a job to 'Crown clean' several Aleppo pine's ( or any kind ).
The trees are heavy and last trimmed years ago and badly. 
You see that hundred's of stub's from really small to 6" in diameter thru-out the entire tree.
As part of a 'Crown clean' , would you cut the stub's even tho it is like a hundred wound's?
This is actually a real question and has to do with a job I am on and being overseen by a BCMA and registered consultant.
Jeff


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## millbilly (Dec 6, 2011)

I fkn love it! Someone trying to justify leaving stubs, by claiming that it will help the tree in the long run since now it will take longer for the decay to reach the heart wood. 

So now I have grasped this concept, it makes total sense, not.

But what dosn't make sense, is why even prune those branchs? They all weren't dead, diseased, broken, rubbing, parallel. Thats right, he said it was to, ummmmm , Im not sure, and if it wasn't corrected it was going to make the tree unsafe, because of all the added weight or something like that.

I do have a belief that could use some clarification. It has to deal with the terminal bud. It is my belief that the terminal bud release a growth regulating hormone that suppresses dormant bud growth. Once the terminal bud is removed, by pollarding or stubbing or natural cause, then all the dormant buds wake up and sucker and become attached wood. Also I was under the belief, that utility companys in the past used to require all pruning cuts be made at the collar and painted. The paint that was used had a man made hormone, which chemically fooled the tree into believing that the branch was still there and reduced sucker growth.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 7, 2011)

millbilly said:


> I fkn love it! Someone trying to justify leaving stubs, by claiming that it will help the tree in the long run since now it will take longer for the decay to reach the heart wood.
> 
> So now I have grasped this concept, it makes total sense, not.
> 
> ...




I think his plan was to invigorate lower growth and reduce height after the tree was over raised. I get that, if that was his intention but it does not take stubs to get that result. Actually just removing apical bud will generate growth elseware briefly until a new apical bud takes over to regulate auxin imo.


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## treeslayer (Dec 7, 2011)

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: sure is fun to #### with all these yankees up here in PA, they surely have no shortage of attitude...:msp_ohmy:

having seen the Eagles in action, I know why.......:hmm3grin2orange:


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## lxt (Dec 7, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: sure is fun to #### with all these yankees up here in PA, they surely have no shortage of attitude...:msp_ohmy:
> 
> having seen the Eagles in action, I know why.......:hmm3grin2orange:




Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....

Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.

I think in your situation with what you have going on it would be best to provide a restorative pruning over a course of time, Yes as long as its done by the standard you prolly could make all those cuts???? ....however I would suggest allowing the cuts some healing time......be selective in stub removal by removing small & large alike but not all at once.

the problem with im-proper work is its easy to destroy the tree...........but restoring it takes time of which most clients want immediate results & lack the patience to follow through. whats the BCMA saying?



LXT................


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## ropensaddle (Dec 7, 2011)

lxt said:


> Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....
> 
> Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.
> 
> ...



Lol ahhhh steelers huh, remember Tom Laundry Robert Newhouse, and Stauback he he he


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 7, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: sure is fun to #### with all these yankees up here in PA, they surely have no shortage of attitude...:msp_ohmy:
> 
> having seen the Eagles in action, I know why.......:hmm3grin2orange:



I don't know how cause I hear that you have a mouth full of southern marbles ...


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## Rftreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

well ####, I guess size does matter.....boom size that is...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2011)

*Thank's Ya'll*



lxt said:


> Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....
> 
> Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.
> 
> ...


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## mattfr12 (Dec 7, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> lxt said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....
> ...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2011)

Matt, I think your confused. Sorry. I am not talking about all that. I am talking about finding alot of stubs and rips and crappy pruning. 
This should probably be moved to Guy's thread.
Jeff


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## NCTREE (Dec 8, 2011)

mattfr12 said:


> jefflovstrom said:
> 
> 
> > Murph seems like an alright guy but i can't ever figure out why he's always doing something out of the ordinary all the time. skid loaders in every yard. taking whole leads smashing stuff up and calling them instructional video's. i think in one of those videos he dropped a trunk on a public street that was over 25' 30' foot tall judging from what i saw in the video. i mean around here you might end up dishing out a lot of $$ for that kinda stuff. good for him if he's making money doing that stuff but around here some of that stuff is what we see the weekend warriors doing.
> ...


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## murphy4trees (Dec 8, 2011)

mattfr12 said:


> a 75 foot bucket or any bucket is usually worthless for pruning on dense canopy trees like that you would have to punch holes everywhere to get to the main trunk. the only trees we prune from the bucket are usually large oak where you can get to the trunk without bending or breaking limbs.



I had another friend and arborist recently remark with surprise that "you can prune with a bucket truck"? Nice guy, but doesn't know much or care much about trees.

Trying to get inside the canopy to prune with a bucket truck is a sign of old school mentality... On mature trees why would you want to cut live limbs on the main trunk? If I need to reach in for deadwood, I'll use a power pruner, stihl 131..


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## superjunior (Dec 8, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> I had another friend and arborist recently remark with surprise that "you can prune with a bucket truck"? Nice guy, but doesn't know much or care much about trees.
> 
> Trying to get inside the canopy to prune with a bucket truck is a sign of old school mentality... On mature trees why would you want to cut live limbs on the main trunk? If I need to reach in for deadwood, I'll use a power pruner, stihl 131..



Lots of mature trees like pin oak and locust have LOTS of deadwood in the interior. If I cant access everything with the bucket I'll bail out and get tied into the tree. For me at least, I would think that to be more efficient then trying to pole saw or power prune all that.


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## Grace Tree (Dec 8, 2011)

superjunior said:


> Lots of mature trees like pin oak and locust have LOTS of deadwood in the interior. If I cant access everything with the bucket I'll bail out and get tied into the tree. For me at least, I would think that to be more efficient then trying to pole saw or power prune all that.


 +1


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## mattfr12 (Dec 8, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> I had another friend and arborist recently remark with surprise that "you can prune with a bucket truck"? Nice guy, but doesn't know much or care much about trees.
> 
> Trying to get inside the canopy to prune with a bucket truck is a sign of old school mentality... On mature trees why would you want to cut live limbs on the main trunk? If I need to reach in for deadwood, I'll use a power pruner, stihl 131..



Ya im not trying to dawg you or your methods because their out of the ordinary because if it works for you roll with it. Its your company and you should do things how you want to. i just always had a hard time getting in close with a bucket our Kboom with bucket is closer to the 80' foot of side reach or 90' up with all the manuals out because on top of the boom it sticks out another 8 feet. i don't think I'm to far from you murph I'm 15 min from downtown pittsburgh.

and about cutting live limbs on the main trunk their is just instances where its necessary if you get two that are growing so closely together or into each other and have no dominant lateral to take it back to i would never just leave it a stub. if left you will wind up with a worse problem rubbing and so on. that will open up the window for disease and decay.

i mean theirs a million ways to skin a cat if thats your method for getting strain off the tree during wind and branch tips and your obtaining good results go for it. is their any type of literature backing it up? if so send it to me please i would like to read it.

because per say you where the inventor of this method and i used it and trees started getting diseased and so on I'm responsible for the health of a lot of municipal trees if another ARB or higher comes in and says thats the cause i could be held liable resulting in losing contracts, maybe even hit my pocket.

People have gotten their wallets hit for pruning with spikes on hew knows what someone will go after.


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## lxt (Dec 8, 2011)

Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!

I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)

Hell the way this trade is going Murph might be on to something, the A300 gets changed every so often & other standards come & go, tree ID is removed from exams, stubs are defended, roads/driveways are used as tree landing zones & some neon earmuff wearing jacktard uses a Lawn mower..................Wow, this trade really has gone down the toilet!!!



LXT...................


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## mattfr12 (Dec 8, 2011)

lxt said:


> Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!
> 
> I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)
> 
> ...



Ya i worked at bartlett before it was even bartlett i worked for jim then he was bought out by bartlett along with urban tree care and I'm not sure where rich came from but he was also a salesperson their when i worked their. The office is in imperial now when i worked their it was in crafton close to shemmins nursery.

ya thier main business is pruning and thats 90% of what i did for them for years and I've just never heard or seen anyone do anything like this nor would it be acceptable. i did a lot of mount lebanon oaks i think people would get killed if you did something like that to one of their trees.


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## mattfr12 (Dec 8, 2011)

lxt said:


> Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!
> 
> I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)
> 
> ...



LXT if you ever need some crane picking done let me know i just threw the second k-boom in the works the 500 model should be done this coming summer its close to 115 foot of stick. the one we just got is 70 of main boom.


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## treeseer (Dec 8, 2011)

"and about cutting live limbs on the main trunk their is just instances where its necessary if you get two that are growing so closely together or into each other and have no dominant lateral to take it back to i would never just leave it a stub. if left you will wind up with a worse problem rubbing and so on. that will open up the window for disease and decay."

On a mature tree, you'd have to look at decay and imbalance vs. the issues with rubbing, which seem less problematic, overall. 

"i mean theirs a million ways to skin a cat if thats your method for getting strain off the tree during wind and branch tips and your obtaining good results go for it. is their any type of literature backing it up?"

Lots of published literature on reduction cuts--see the research by gilman and grabosky and dahle etc. etc. in the journal. tons of work in europe, also read the june issue of arborist news the last 2 years. also see gilman's pruning guide 3rd edition p 81-84. What's this, those money grubbers put out a new edition? :msp_ohmy: LXT's gonna really flip now--what is there to say about tree work that we did not learn in 1986?

Re thinning interiors of deadwood, pin oaks and honey locust are very different from red oaks and tulip trees. I do not fly a bucket but they are very useful for crown reduction.


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## lxt (Dec 9, 2011)

treeseer said:


> "and about cutting live limbs on the main trunk their is just instances where its necessary if you get two that are growing so closely together or into each other and have no dominant lateral to take it back to i would never just leave it a stub. if left you will wind up with a worse problem rubbing and so on. that will open up the window for disease and decay."
> 
> On a mature tree, you'd have to look at decay and imbalance vs. the issues with rubbing, which seem less problematic, overall.
> 
> ...




#1 this aint Europe
#2 3rd edition???? LOL, how many more will there be before they get it right???
#3 1986...........Seer, improving the industry is one thing & advances forward are always a good thing, BUT.....why is it the authors in latter publications contradict what they said in a previous one? Ohh...thats right (science, technological advances, etc..) So Now all those 1st & 2nd editions are garbage cause the 3rd one trumps em?? What a ####ing joke!! you keep buying books that will be obsolete.....wow theres that word again!

#4 Really, you dont fly a bucket?? I would of never guessed:msp_ohmy: , maybe you could take pictures of some one flying a bucket 4 years ago to match the pictures of the tree wounds you wanted to show us in the other thread 

Matt, I have trimmed in Mt Leb, upper St Clair, fox chapel, etc.. & you are right.........even if it was a tulip (like this species has a different standard) you would be thrown out of there!!! C`mon Seer.........& you consult? I know plenty like you, cant do the work so they read a little, get an ounce of knowledge & then go out BS people for money!!



LXT...............


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## mattfr12 (Dec 9, 2011)

lxt said:


> Matt, I have trimmed in Mt Leb, upper St Clair, fox chapel, etc.. & you are right.........even if it was a tulip (like this species has a different standard) you would be thrown out of there!!! C`mon Seer.........& you consult? I know plenty like you, cant do the work so they read a little, get an ounce of knowledge & then go out BS people for money!!
> 
> 
> 
> LXT...............



Ya thats why i have to view the information as next to worthless because the people that pay the big bucks like cities and boroughs and so one wouldn't let you even dream of doing something like this. and the people that say what goes and doesn't are Cert arbs and BCMA's.


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## treeseer (Dec 9, 2011)

lxt said:


> ... improving the industry is one thing & advances forward are always a good thing, BUT.....why is it the authors in latter publications contradict what they said in a previous one? Ohh...thats right (science, technological advances, etc..)



Yes that stuff happens. That means people gotta think to keep up. Darn inconvenient but there you are.

re the rest, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Here's 1 of dozens in the last 7 years.
Pics are of my work, or my subcontractors following my specs (last pic is the Tree Machine, who used to post on this forum until the smell got too bad)--where's yours?View attachment 210649


btw anyone can go to the ISA site and download FREE. What was that about money grubbers???


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## Ed Roland (Dec 9, 2011)

All this vitriol is pointless :msp_confused:

Excellent article Guy. I liked it then and i like it now. Preservation strategies are likely to confound removalists, tho. Especially those that denounce the revision of scientific data.


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## treeseer (Dec 9, 2011)

"All this vitriol is pointless :msp_confused:"

I agree, but it seems to define AS now. It's hard not to get sucked in; I'm trying. :mad2:

"Excellent article Guy. I liked it then and i like it now."

so does that mean you like pruning now? :msp_tongue:
Hate to say it but I do too.The Re-Re theme was just so easy to follow (amazing that the only letter it generated was from the Brit who claimed ownership of 'Retrenchment Pruning and demanded props for it). 

We'll have to visit that car dealer if you ever pull a Barney Fife and cmon up to the big city.
If I had to pick just one to take to the grave that may be it. At the least it serves as a prompt to frame suggestions for the 2013 revision, with which you are on board right? uttahere2:

"Preservation strategies are likely to confound removalists, tho. Especially those that denounce the revision of scientific data."

Data, ergo Conclusions and Standards, too. Can confoundment conclude con clarification? :msp_unsure: but yes a horse living near a lake can still die of thirst.


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## superjunior (Dec 9, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Yes that stuff happens. That means people gotta think to keep up. Darn inconvenient but there you are.
> 
> re the rest, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Here's 1 of dozens in the last 7 years.
> Pics are of my work, or my subcontractors following my specs (last pic is the Tree Machine, who used to post on this forum until the smell got too bad)--where's yours?View attachment 210649
> ...



that was a good read :msp_thumbup:


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## mattfr12 (Dec 9, 2011)

treeseer said:


> "All this vitriol is pointless :msp_confused:"
> 
> I agree, but it seems to define AS now. It's hard not to get sucked in; I'm trying. :mad2:
> 
> ...



Not trying to say it does or doesn't work i believe in science and proven facts and if you or others are gaining good results from it thats great. I'm just saying we have and hold municipal contracts that are worth enough money that trying something like this could cost you hundreds of thousands i think in that article i read 77,000 if you did that in some of this cities 77,000 would probably be the down payment.

its just like going to different doctors you might get a different answer or explanation for the same thing. around here our doctors are just giving us a different answer we get paid to do the work they want. next time i see the municipal CA ill show him this and see what he thinks and get his response. maybe he will say you are right. never know.

Not trying to start an argument better trying to understand maybe would be the best thing. i have read through your article and credit you for taking the time to do those kind of things. but as you say don't hurt yourself by learning well this is me trying to learn what a guy like murph or you are doing.


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## Ed Roland (Dec 9, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Hate to say it but I do too.The Re-Re theme was just so easy to follow (amazing that the only letter it generated was from the Brit who claimed ownership of 'Retrenchment Pruning and demanded props for it).



Muir/Fay? I have to imagine your "retrenchment" being a very different thing from theirs. :msp_rolleyes:



treeseer said:


> We'll have to visit that car dealer if you ever pull a Barney Fife and cmon up to the big city.
> If I had to pick just one to take to the grave that may be it. At the least it serves as a prompt to frame suggestions for the 2013 revision, with which you are on board right? uttahere2:



If the authors are willing to listen to what this BCMA has to say then I'll take the opportunity to say it. Lets inspect that willow oak!


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## murphy4trees (Dec 9, 2011)

Nice article Guy... would still be a surprise oif it made a dent in some of the thick skulls that are attached to loud mouths around here.. Hearing your talk at the 2004 ISA international conference made a quantum leap in m understanding of these principles.. It only made sense to me that if stubs are good to leave when there is storm damage.. they'd be good to leave for Mrs Smith when she demands that a 40' limb be removed for light on her garden.. 30' off leaving a 10' stub is better for the tree than 40' off with a perfect target cut.. 

Looking back at my mentality before that talk, its amazing that I could have been so darn sure that stubs were "bad", and been so wrong the whole time...

Took the new climber by a couple of trees today.. First was a chestnut oak that had been trashed when a big maple across the street wiped out the whole left side of the tree.. I removed the storm damaged maple and bid on the oak for the neighbor, explaining that it would be better to leave those broken limbs cut back to stubs.. Instead they found someone to target prune that poor tree, leaving a 5 or 6 large wounds in a row, up the side of the tree, cuts from 8-18" diameter... I explained the situation and asked the new climber how he would have handled it.. he said he was always taught to target prune storm damaged limbs.. He has worked for John B Ward, which is one of the premiere tree companies in area, if not the world.. So this shift in understanding is coming slow to the industry.. He was open to hearing the new perspective and said he'd cut trees however I asked him to..

Couple blocks away was the tree from this pruning done in 2009.. 

proper prune 1 big tulip limb.mov - YouTube

Without you Guy, that tree would have been butchered..
Thanks.. You've made a huge difference for me and many others.. Hopefully you won't have to put up with too much more abuse for trying to shift the paradigm..


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## superjunior (Dec 9, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> Nice article Guy... would still be a surprise oif it made a dent in some of the thick skulls that are attached to loud mouths around here.. Hearing your talk at the 2004 ISA international conference made a quantum leap in m understanding of these principles.. It only made sense to me that if stubs are good to leave when there is storm damage.. they'd be good to leave for Mrs Smith when she demands that a 40' limb be removed for light on her garden.. 30' off leaving a 10' stub is better for the tree than 40' off with a perfect target cut..
> 
> Looking back at my mentality before that talk, its amazing that I could have been so darn sure that stubs were "bad", and been so wrong the whole time...
> 
> ...



I donno Murph, that 3 ft. stub looks like s##t.. Maybe I'm still in the old school mentality of pruning..? But as you mentioned in that vid, that stub will spew a whole lot of suckers, of which none of them will be a good viable limb again.. and which will block the sun to her garden again.. which will have to be taken off again?.. 

You picked a perfect lateral, so why the stub?


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## murphy4trees (Dec 10, 2011)

because making a 10-12" diameter cut just outside that lateral, no matter how perfect a "target cut" will lead to decay into the stem behind the lateral.. the stub provides a buffer.. no one said it was gonna be pretty. If aesthetics are a big concern, then other options should be considered.. in this case it's fairly inconspicuous. If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it..


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

Anyone ever mix rum with ranch dressing? I'm outta Dr Pepper but glad to know these two things:

1. When all is said and done a whole lot more is said than done

2. All of you have pretty much said the same thing. Go ahead, check it out. In fact, if you notice, you all do the same thing too. Google it, you'll see.

And I wrote a song, goes like:

Don't bogart that street ole Murph, cone it off fer meeee!


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

lxt said:


> Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!
> 
> I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)
> 
> ...



I can fix it X. Send me 5 bucks and one bullet of your choice.


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

lxt said:


> I agree, I have taken some shots & got some back.........but I dont consider those sources to matter! perhaps instead of name calling we could engage in why this is not a proper prune job? But......if FTA & Slayer wanna a verbal insult fest....welp Ill try to refrain?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...



X, the first thing outta yer mouth everytime is calling somebody something.


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## treeseer (Dec 10, 2011)

superjunior said:


> You picked a perfect lateral, so why the stub?



"If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it.."

IMO you're both right--it could have gone either way. Look at the list in the article--going back to the lateral right away would have left a downward-facing wound, at a zone with high activity so adequate closure seemed likely. the stub you left had an upward-facing wound at a place with low activity so rot seemed inevitable. But by getting back to cut it to the lateral before rot extends that far, you allowed some resources to translocate down to that point, so eventual closure seems more likely than if you had "done it right the first time".

Lots of variables; we're all still learning. In the vid you nicely described the essential process of translating the client's goals into the pruning objective. :smile2: When you do make that final cut, a pic would be great. In any case, big wounds on trunks destabilize trees--well put. Reduction pruning is still poorly understood by researchers, especially the ones who said "there is no proper heading cut on a mature tree", even after storm damage. The concept of "node" still escapes them. ed and matt have heard this and it is unfortunate.

"I removed the storm damaged maple and bid on the oak for the neighbor, explaining that it would be better to leave those broken limbs cut back to stubs.. Instead they found someone to target prune that poor tree, leaving a 5 or 6 large wounds in a row, up the side of the tree, cuts from 8-18" diameter..."

That's gotta be ugly; an example of dogma triumphing over basic botany and common sense. There's a tree like this in court right now, the subject of an sizable lawsuit--more than I clear in 2 years. "target prune" is the wrong phrase--nodes, not just those at branch origins, are natural targets. to learn this, read Shigo, and more importantly Touch Trees.

When that section of trunk dies and the tree gets unstable, the branch removalists will be responsible for the loss of the tree, and any resultant damage and injury and death. Please document that tree over time so the story can be told.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2011)

treeseer said:


> "If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it.."
> 
> IMO you're both right--it could have gone either way. Look at the list in the article--going back to the lateral right away would have left a downward-facing wound, at a zone with high activity so adequate closure seemed likely. the stub you left had an upward-facing wound at a place with low activity so rot seemed inevitable. But by getting back to cut it to the lateral before rot extends that far, you allowed some resources to translocate down to that point, so eventual closure seems more likely than if you had "done it right the first time".
> 
> ...



Seer I have seen countless examples of improper trimming and even performed some but never once seen or even heard of a suit over it. I think it must be a east coast thing lol. Anyway I get what your talking about with stubs but my friend I have perfected staying out of the zone so my lateral trims kick lol. Anyway I will be leaving some 1 inch stubs this week on 11 pollards.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2011)

lxt said:


> Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!
> 
> I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)
> 
> ...


opcorn:


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> because making a 10-12" diameter cut just outside that lateral, no matter how perfect a "target cut" will lead to decay into the stem behind the lateral.. the stub provides a buffer.. no one said it was gonna be pretty. If aesthetics are a big concern, then other options should be considered.. in this case it's fairly inconspicuous. If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it..



Murph I have stubbed many in ice storm restoration but the truth is the decay will be the same if you leave the stub or not unless you cut into the bbpz its not a factor imo. I have went back and seen decay from stubs entering stems so its not just a hunch its from my experience. The problem I see with leaving large stubs is if the tree is stressed later by drought the large limb dies then becomes a hazard to my customer. Anyway the small stubs really are not a big deal but I only leave when no option exists or on pollards to form pods.


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## murphy4trees (Dec 10, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Murph I have stubbed many in ice storm restoration but the truth is the decay will be the same if you leave the stub or not unless you cut into the bbpz its not a factor imo. I have went back and seen decay from stubs entering stems so its not just a hunch its from my experience. The problem I see with leaving large stubs is if the tree is stressed later by drought the large limb dies then becomes a hazard to my customer. Anyway the small stubs really are not a big deal but I only leave when no option exists or on pollards to form pods.



OK.... I agree that decay will enter the stems.. its a natural process, part of an untouched trees aging as large lower limbs die off and decay... That is the type of decay that trees have evolved to handle and survive. So the decay that results from stubs is acceptable IMO. However the type of decay that results from a violation of the bpz is often catastrophic... Even if the limb must be removed entirely at a later date, its best to leave a stub and let the tree begin the process of compartmentalization, then make the final cut some year(s) later, when the tree has started forming a visible collar of living wood... The problem with making a large cut on the first go round is that there is far too much chance of cutting into the bpz, even for a caring and properly trained arb... So even in ideal conditions its a bad idea.. it gets much worse when applied in the "real" world as an industry standard.. Just look around and see all the hollow trees resulting from improper large wounds on the main stem.... in this business, there a large percentage of the workers and owners simply do not care, nor are they properly trained.. Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution and let them leave stubs?


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 10, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> because making a 10-12" diameter cut just outside that lateral, no matter how perfect a "target cut" will lead to decay into the stem behind the lateral.. the stub provides a buffer.. no one said it was gonna be pretty. If aesthetics are a big concern, then other options should be considered.. in this case it's fairly inconspicuous. If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it..



Ya know I gotta kinda agree , that looks like #### and as far as the stub is concerned you will have regrowth or worse a area of decay that will prolly show up on the lower side of that branch and all the back to the trunk ??? I get the theory but I would not have done the same I was always taught and practice a 45* to the branch that stays.. And I don't wan' t you too feel like I am always bashing with a thick head unable to learn , with that being said I always try to do whats right and proper ...


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## Rftreeman (Dec 10, 2011)

how the hell can a young mind like mine learn anything with you guys going back and forth all the time about weather it's ok to stub cut or not, one day it's like the plague and the next day it's what's best for the tree.....JUST MAKE UP YOUR MINDS ALREADY, YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!! Is it or is it not OK to stub cut..........DANG..


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> how the hell can a young mind like mine learn anything with you guys going back and forth all the time about weather it's ok to stub cut or not, one day it's like the plague and the next day it's what's best for the tree.....JUST MAKE UP YOUR MINDS ALREADY, YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!! Is it or is it not OK to stub cut..........DANG..



Oh, another potential customer. This new business venture of mine is really booming, people are catching on. Don't be the last person on your block without one. I am offering a special just in time for the holidays: 1 bullet is 5 bucks or two for seven fifty. One for you, one for that special person in your life but i don't recomend you go in that order. Call now. operators are standing by to take your order. We accept no liablity for mispelled names.










THE N IS NEAR!


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## Iustinian (Dec 10, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Oh, another potential customer. This new business venture of mine is really booming, people are catching on. Don't be the last person on your block without one. I am offering a special just in time for the holidays: 1 bullet is 5 bucks or two for seven fifty. One for you, one for that special person in your life but i don't recomend you go in that order. Call now. operators are standing by to take your order. We accept no liablity for mispelled names.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmao!!!!!! Economy deal: buy the bullet and rent the gun, for those that are trying to get the most bang for their buck....


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> how the hell can a young mind like mine learn anything with you guys going back and forth all the time about weather it's ok to stub cut or not, one day it's like the plague and the next day it's what's best for the tree.....JUST MAKE UP YOUR MINDS ALREADY, YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!! Is it or is it not OK to stub cut..........DANG..



LOL I would say it depends, definitely on ice damage it is many times a necessity and most of the trees rebound so in that context, yes. I would err on caution as including it as a staple of practice. I guess in a way I leave stubs but it is only a half inch or so to stay out of bbpz. I guess if I was on a property that had me come back annual to assess, stubs would not be an issue. My customers on the other hand may be five years before calling me and I can't afford to kill them with a large dead stub falling! Like I said small stubs or where a lateral does not exist is how I conduct the issue. It will not harm if outside bbpz and since I can trim and stay out of it I will. Another necessity for stubs is on pollards, its too easy to make a mistake there imo. A two inch dead stub falling is a lot different than a 12" lead dying and falling too.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2011)

One reason i would not subscribe to accepting stubs as a routine practice, there is more but this one sorta gives me pause!

Disease comes to plants in many forms, living attackers such as bacteria, fungi, and viruses. You can also think of infestations by insects as “disease” in that they begin in one part of the plant and spread throughout, harming it as they reproduce.

For the most part, a plant will not recover from a disease that you notice. By the time you see the sign of an infection, chances are that waiting for the plant to fight it off on its own is not a good idea if you have a choice. The best action instead is to assess if the problem is in one part of the plant, and if it is, cut that part out before the problem can spread.

Unlike wood that is simply dead or broken, diseased wood contains a living inoculant that can still spread and re-infect the living plant even after you cut it off. These may be insect eggs in the wood, fungus spores, or bacteria that can leap through the air riding splashes of rain onto a new plant—I kid you not.

For these reasons, it is not enough to just cut off diseased wood—you must remove it from the site as trash or destroy it by burning. You should also disinfect tools that cut into diseased wood before using them to cut again into good wood.

Dead wood is a fungi bed waiting to occur imo so routinely leaving stubs to die and become havens for fungi and bug beds is a little counter productive I think..


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## Rftreeman (Dec 10, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Oh, another potential customer. This new business venture of mine is really booming, people are catching on. Don't be the last person on your block without one. I am offering a special just in time for the holidays: 1 bullet is 5 bucks or two for seven fifty. One for you, one for that special person in your life but i don't recomend you go in that order. Call now. operators are standing by to take your order. We accept no liablity for mispelled names.
> 
> 
> 
> THE N IS NEAR!


do you offer same day express shipping....


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## thepheniox (Dec 10, 2011)

Murph is right it is best not to cut a branch back to the trunk. But I disagree with leaving stubs. If you could cut back approx a third of the branch using proper cuts back to laterals. The go back the following year and again reduce the branch again. Buy the third year the branch should be shutting down which would show you where the tree wants you to cut it. However, finding someone that would want to pay you to do it like this would be pretty cool. Most people want the immediate result of having the limb removed. I would really like to be able to trim a street that has similar trees on both sides. One side just cut off the branches like we always have and the other side like I just described. Then study the trees for twenty years or so for additional pruning, storm damage, low limbs, etc. Then we could see how proper (or what I think is proper) pruning really affects trees.


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

thepheniox said:


> Murph is right it is best not to cut a branch back to the trunk. But I disagree with leaving stubs. If you could cut back approx a third of the branch using proper cuts back to laterals. The go back the following year and again reduce the branch again. Buy the third year the branch should be shutting down which would show you where the tree wants you to cut it. However, finding someone that would want to pay you to do it like this would be pretty cool. Most people want the immediate result of having the limb removed. I would really like to be able to trim a street that has similar trees on both sides. One side just cut off the branches like we always have and the other side like I just described. Then study the trees for twenty years or so for additional pruning, storm damage, low limbs, etc. Then we could see how proper (or what I think is proper) pruning really affects trees.



That's right, let the tree show you. And don't forget all the other circumstance out there that's not written in the ANSI book.

I didn't see anything that could be regarded as a stub on Murph's poplar ( I mean tuliptree- twholipius treeius), if comments about stubs where made in regards to that maple the lady wanted one side hacked out of I think the whole thing could be summed up pretty quick. Just go back to where he mentioned something about a landscraper telling the client something, then it turned out there was no landscraper to begin with. 

I am pretty sure you guys try you're best, so do I, but I know this ain't no Paul Mitchell hair salon so excuse me for saying I think some of you or full of it. X, yeah you in particular. There are high hopes and then there is reality.


This is a oak atop the hill at the Morris Arboretum. Its pretty self explanitory, well, if you can think that is. If you rely on Shigo to direct your every move then I would have to call that tunnel vision, unable to process your own thoughts, afraid to step offshore, you should hang out in a pasture, eat graze, say " Baaa".










Epicormic growth? I can work with that. Stubs? Them too. We'll see next season and decide then maybe, I dunno.


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

Proper pruning of a mature bradford. You can argue as many circles as you like, you'll just tire yourself out, irritate The Dan and sound like Baptist.


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## treeseer (Dec 10, 2011)

Nice work, The Dan. I saw that oak last spring but never in winter--fine silhouette. They do nice work there.  You are spot on about the brain needing to be engaged and adapt, 'Rules are too absolute for Mother Nature" A. S.

"I have to imagine your "retrenchment" being a very different thing from theirs."

Nah ed we pretty much compare notes; I'm down with most of what they do. It was kind of a silly semantic thing. What i think is funny/weird is the vociferous commenting that takes place online, compared to the silence from hard copy readers. Is it the anonymity here, or the instant gratification? who knows who cares.

" If the authors are willing to listen to what this BCMA has to say then I'll take the opportunity to say it."

The subgroups (have to) take public comments, bring em on. Murph did last time around and he was heard. the better supported they are, the better the comments are heard.

"Lets inspect that willow oak!" we can look at a lot of them, come on up anytime! the wraptor makes it possible to see a lot in a day.


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## treemandan (Dec 10, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> I can see them nodes from here.
> 
> Good job!



Whatsa nodes ? 


At first I deployed the rented Nifty Fifty, made one cut then remembered it is never a good idea to try and fool yerself.


I took the lift around back and went beserk on a line of Arbs and these ornamentals using a hand loppers and non- motorized sheers. I don't think I left a terminal bud standing. If you see one, let me know, I'll go and put it out of my misery.








I ditched the lift and went back at the bradfords ( pearius bradferios). I set a TIP high and in the middle by strapping a couple thin tips together then gave em a buzzing to with a motorized handsaw.


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## lxt (Dec 11, 2011)

Well 1st off the only load mouths are the ones posting videos of instructional destruction of a tree & trying out methods that only work in their heads..........

Guy, your subcontractors are more like it........cause you dont climb anything worth a hoot & cant run a bucket truck!!, you wanna preach new methods this & new methods that.............well try reading the publication that prints your fodder........cause many of the cited literature bases are pretty dated........

December issue arborist news page 28, cited Literature from 1984, 1989, 1990 & 1996

Now lets go to page 29...Sharon Lilly`s 3rd edition of the tree climbers companion, Now I`ve been to symposiums & while I have not met her personally, I have been within earshot of her.........."she writes specifically from the tree climbers perspective"...Like she has ever, & I mean ever had her bottom end aloft in a tree............But by goodness 3 editions later & a little money in her non climbing pockets..............yep, why dont they offer that up for free?

Now venture on over to Page 42 where Carl under the heading of Shigo Junkie makes the statement about Arbs who dont climb!!!

Your article is a basic 101 of BS mish mash & the use of the muppets "Ms. Piggy" & "Kermie" is about as dated as one can get, you wanna preach new methodology, scientific data....etc.......then why do we still cite almost 30 yr old literature? & to boot...they`re still selling that stuff & making money on it!!! why dont you tell them their theories & books are obsolete? Ooooo thats right you wouldnt be writing to many articles after an outburst like that..................actually, that might be a good thing!!!!



LXT.....................


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2011)

What about my question, if I may? The other thread died.
Jeff :msp_ohmy:


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## lxt (Dec 11, 2011)

treemandan said:


> That's right, let the tree show you. And don't forget all the other circumstance out there that's not written in the ANSI book.
> 
> I didn't see anything that could be regarded as a stub on Murph's poplar ( I mean tuliptree- twholipius treeius), if comments about stubs where made in regards to that maple the lady wanted one side hacked out of I think the whole thing could be summed up pretty quick. Just go back to where he mentioned something about a landscraper telling the client something, then it turned out there was no landscraper to begin with.
> 
> ...





Ya know Danno.............you run at the mouth & post horrific prunings that even AA wouldnt take credit for............Perhaps some more house chores will put you back in reality? but I doubt it? you post in an ebonic manner that rivals FTA.............as for Murph, Treeseer & you.....................ya wanna defend stubs? good for you!! you wanna say whats outdated.....good for you!!

But..........I dont see any of you three working/Consulting on the big jobs............In seers case I can only justify his position by the fact he has his head so far up certain committees azzes & imbedded into the organizations crotches so deep that the fact of him kissin their backsides out weighs his skill level............his knowledge is book based & therefore anyone with time to read a novel could make similar conclusions..............its just some of us are to busy aloft & tired by days end to engage in book fest!!

Now lets re-visit those outdated publications still being cited in Arb News from 1984...............:msp_biggrin:




LXT....................


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## lxt (Dec 11, 2011)

treemandan said:


> X, the first thing outta yer mouth everytime is calling somebody something.





Dude where do you come up with your dribbling prattle..............I dont call any body anything unless its some over posting, no sense making, picture taking of himself sitting on the steps with a dish cloth on his shoulder...........Idiot!!

Now thats outta the way, post sumthin worth a poo & soak that binky in some rum & ranch dressing before posting stupidly again!!!!



LXT................


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## lxt (Dec 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> What about my question, if I may? The other thread died.
> Jeff :msp_ohmy:



Ask away Jeff, Maybe..........the Dan or Murph will give ya a good answer.......oh hell Jeff, just drop it on the street or in the Ho`s driveway.......


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 11, 2011)

lxt said:


> Ask away Jeff, Maybe..........the Dan or Murph will give ya a good answer.......oh hell Jeff, just drop it on the street or in the Ho`s driveway.......



Holy ###k Batman someone lit a M80 up your ### today , damn .... I am afraid today of you and my dog just hid in the corner and ####ed on my floor .....


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2011)

"Why Can't We UnFriend?" by War for National UnFriend Day - YouTube


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## murphy4trees (Dec 11, 2011)

what is the question again Jeff?


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2011)

http://www.arboristsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3314865
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2011)

*My question.*



jefflovstrom said:


> OK, I have a question. Please chime in Guy and Doug.
> You have a job to 'Crown clean' several Aleppo pine's ( or any kind ).
> The trees are heavy and last trimmed years ago and badly.
> You see that hundred's of stub's from really small to 6" in diameter thru-out the entire tree.
> ...



Jeff


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## treemandan (Dec 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jeff



If you were paying attention you'd realize yer damned of you do, damned if you don't. have fun.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2011)

I was.


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## treemandan (Dec 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I was.



Dam you !!! :smile2:


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## murphy4trees (Dec 11, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> The trees are heavy and last trimmed years ago and badly.
> You see that hundred's of stub's from really small to 6" in diameter thru-out the entire tree.
> As part of a 'Crown clean' , would you cut the stub's even tho it is like a hundred wound's?
> Jeff



I would OK removing of pine stubs if they are dead.. If they are alive.. leave them if it is aesthetically acceptable.


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## treemandan (Dec 11, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> I would OK removing of pine stubs if they are dead.. If they are alive.. leave them if it is aesthetically acceptable.



That is a big part of all these rules and regs about pruning - How it looks.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 11, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Nice work, The Dan. I saw that oak last spring but never in winter--fine silhouette. They do nice work there.  You are spot on about the brain needing to be engaged and adapt, 'Rules are too absolute for Mother Nature" A. S.



What I think is funny weird is you look at that oak and say fine silhouette and I see lions tailed


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 12, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jeff



I leave them, come back to them later. I tell my customers that "its too many wounds, at one time,lets get the original scope of work done, then I will come back in a couple to clean them up, it will cost you this much" If they want it done anyway, I do it, but let them know what the risk's are. If I have an uneasy feeling, I make them sign off on the work before I do it. Most of the time, they go with what I say. I hate doing those, when ya skin up a conifer, then drive by a few weeks later, so much sap coming out of some of them, that it looks like a stoners candle! Anyways, not saying its the end all, but thats what I do.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 12, 2011)

Do u guys ever get asked to cut out co-doms on a decurrent tree, essentially turning it into a excurrent tree?


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## treeseer (Dec 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> What I think is funny weird is you look at that oak and say fine silhouette and I see lions tailed


It's a real old tree and has shed a lot of interior foliage. Still has branches on the inside--they don't gut it. Really hard to judge based on image with no details.

So Jeff did the specs get clear and written down?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 12, 2011)

treeseer said:


> It's a real old tree and has shed a lot of interior foliage. Still has branches on the inside--they don't gut it. Really hard to judge based on image with no details.
> 
> So Jeff did the specs get clear and written down?



Well yes old it is, however the limb on left side is clearly lions tailed and probably done before the Dan got into the job. It was probably done over the course of several years but I can see it is not natural especially on the left limb. That tree gets full sun it should not be be bare except on ends jmo.


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## murphy4trees (Dec 14, 2011)

lxt said:


> Well 1st off the only load mouths are the ones posting videos of instructional destruction of a tree & trying out methods that only work in their heads..........
> 
> Guy, your subcontractors are more like it........cause you dont climb anything worth a hoot & cant run a bucket truck!!, you wanna preach new methods this & new methods that.............well try reading the publication that prints your fodder........cause many of the cited literature bases are pretty dated........
> 
> ...



This toxic post is a perfect example of the type of mudslinging that does so much damage to these internet forums. How many voices have you chased off with your ugliness?


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## Grace Tree (Dec 14, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> This toxic post is a perfect example of the type of mudslinging that does so much damage to these internet forums. How many voices have you chased off with your ugliness?


I'd say that sums it up pretty well. 
Phil


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## lxt (Dec 14, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> This toxic post is a perfect example of the type of mudslinging that does so much damage to these internet forums. How many voices have you chased off with your ugliness?




Toxic post........? Look Mr. I drop it on the road, what I stated in that post is the "TRUTH", If the truth damages anything? so be it!!

You tell me, cause #1 Treeseer comes on here bla bla blabing about this n that & when some one shows him through his own admired publication just how wrong he/things are.............people like you wanna cry foul!!

There was no mudslinging in that post either...........the real question should be? how the hell do guys like you even make it?, you wanna promote yourself through silly videos showing recklessness & just plain out disregard for anything proper..........Even @ the other site they busted your twins & too boot I have no respect for someone who tries to come across like he`s all that through "LIES"............tell us Murph how is it you read the 4th edition of something that doesnt even exist!!!

As for your southern consultant friend & you.................I read your posts just fine & along with everyone else can pick out the BS...............even that customers dog in your one video knew you were full of it!!!! you keep stubbing, droppin on the road & doing those precision/extreme jobs & we all will just keep laughing..................at you!!!!!!!

BTW........Seer was the one who mentioned Subs & never having ran a bucket.............I just took the obvious & re-posted it, Murph.....if your so good why dont you open up a school & teach? Rip thompkins did........I mean after all Murph those special cuts & techniques you incorporate are priceless.............





LXT...............


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## lxt (Dec 14, 2011)

I almost forgot..........."how many voices I have chased off with my ugliness?"........LMFAO, you post a picture in your avatar looking like that & you have the nerve to ask such a question? fact is I only wish we here could run off the BS likes of you & a few others!!



LXT................:msp_flapper:


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## murphy4trees (Dec 16, 2011)

treemandan said:


> That is a big part of all these rules and regs about pruning - How it looks.


Sure... only prob is how it looks is very subjective... VERY SUBJECTIVE.. how do you codify that? Obvioulsy we all like to pretty a tree up... And for example a 2" stub is 75' up, what it looks like is hard to tell..


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## murphy4trees (Dec 16, 2011)

lxt said:


> I almost forgot..........."how many voices I have chased off with my ugliness?"........LMFAO, you post a picture in your avatar looking like that & you have the nerve to ask such a question? fact is I only wish we here could run off the BS likes of you & a few others!!



Thowing mud again... its one of the major problems with the world.. a$$holes end up in charge, becasue decent folks don't take the time, energy and risk to stand up to them.. You keep spouting your ugliness with impunity, leaving this place a wasteland, and no one says a word.. No different than Cheyney implementing torture as a state policy and taking the world to war with lies and deception.. He gets away with it becasue no one says a word..


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## lxt (Dec 16, 2011)

Murph, the only one spouting off is you!!! You come on here & make a statement about my "toxic" post, My "ugliness", etc.. & im the one mudslinging?

you & Seer post things & cite publications to justify what you say & do!!!!!! when some one else does the same...its now mudslinging & toxic........

*why dont you answer the questions within my post?*, *tell us about that 4 th edition reading (lie)*

You lost all credibility when you posted your work, I really have nothing more to say to you, all you will do is cry & pick out the parts of a post that is a snapshot of its entirety............only to promote some made up truth or justification for your own ego!!

The only reason the truth offends you: is because it makes you look like some of the other hack novices on here!!! & thats the truth, only reason many continue to converse with you is to find out if you are really as clueless as you portray your self in those videos!! 

Hope you are doing better at justifying yourself @ the other site........from what ive seen it dont look good for you!!!




LXT..................


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## lxt (Dec 16, 2011)

murphy4trees said:


> And for example a 2" stub is 75' up, what it looks like is hard to tell..



Right here is the stupidity I just cant let go............*a 2" stub 75 up *would be rather large as it is in the upper canopy of the tree  a 2" stub shouldnt be left 10ft up in the tree let alone...........75Ft up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what it looks like should not be the issue? the issue is why would one leave such in the first place? Im sure you will tells us!! the truth is : laziness, poor workmanship & lack of care!! But im sure you will put a spin on how it was left & is proper 





LXT................


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## treeseer (Dec 16, 2011)

Checking in here once a week and the toilet is still running. 

Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?

I was told to post my work on AS and I did. 

Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?

Dozens of pics reviewed by peers (not ranting potty mouths) and published over the years. 

Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?

As for me never running a bucket and the Ms. Lilly never climbing, those are both inaccurate, by years.

Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?

Lack of moderation kills this forum. :angry2: Maybe ranting = clicks = $, and nothing else matters here.

Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2011)

All you all that commented just got a 'Like' from me.
I don't know why.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 17, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Checking in here once a week and the toilet is still running.
> 
> Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?
> 
> ...


Yea your right ,mommy should come back to the park and watch us children playing dodgeball because you are tired of taking balls to the face , quit your crying ....I mean I have never seen a weaker group of people than the crowd that has now started to whine and cry about more moderation ...


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## peetar (Dec 17, 2011)

I had nearly a case of beers in me when I saw Murphs' video. I got mad when he blasted whoever did the lower cuts without any info on how they came about. I didn't watch to see the stubs.

I'm getting E-mails that someone posted in this thread......and it pisses me off.

Murphy is a very competent tree guy, who makes statements that are a couple feet over his head(to make videos). Thats fine! 
He's good, but says he is great, and all hell breaks lose. 

If you read this thread, there is no consensus on where cuts should be made.
Think About That!


I DON'T care what the science of the day says, I'll bring it back to a lateral, and be done with it.


You guys are talking yourselfs into allowing 3ft. stubs too come off of trunks and be industry excepted.

It looks like hell and people won't except it. A 7 year program that includes .3/


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## superjunior (Dec 17, 2011)

peetar said:


> I had nearly a case of beers in me when I saw Murphs' video. I got mad when he blasted whoever did the lower cuts without any info on how they came about. I didn't watch to see the stubs.
> 
> I'm getting E-mails that someone posted in this thread......and it pisses me off.
> 
> ...



umm no, not all of us..


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## lxt (Dec 19, 2011)

treeseer said:


> Checking in here once a week and the toilet is still running.
> 
> Where is your work, Mr. Badmouth?
> 
> ...





The toilet just overflowed when you posted!!! your work is reviewed by WHO????? more like authors & editors revising your hash for print!!!

My work is easily found......a simple search would of taken care of that: check in the tree care video section, threads ( ameriquip old but good & genie in action)..........like I said, I posted to show the functionality of a machine.......not to gloat & pretend Im some professor of arboriculture like you & Murph, which by you two`s postings shows how much more you two have to learn, maybe you should hang up writing in the arb news for awhile & get a little more field experience under your belt & as for Murph.....well what can members at two sites say that hasnt already been said..............

So......Now that you should be able to view a snapshot of my work..........how bout that consultant gig ole boy.....when you gonna consult for that which matters.........i.e, utilities, enviromental firms, state agencies...etc... cause when you come on here blathering like a fool & preparing an article for detective ding dong in your favorite publication (which by the way proved my point that you & murph didnt like...it was toxic)

as for you not running a bucket & Ms. Lilly not climbing...those are inaccurate?? really?? Well Mr. Bad mouth...... you can find my work on here & it will show you that I can do what I say I can..............Now how about you show us something worth a snort & that pic of Ms. Lilly climbing would be a prize............I just gotta know Seer....how much time do you really have in a saddle & at the sticks aloft?????..............seriuosly? cause Pal, im still going at it weekly & thats after heart surgery this past May......so Mr. Bad Mouth...........why dont you try a different route to prove me wrong........cause so far, you`re looking pretty bad!!! Mr. Badmouth!

*Please tell me that your shown work is not in post #187 refering to restorative pruning? cause if so? I dont see you in any of those trees, as a matter of fact we dont even know that your service even did the work? prolly subbed out!!, your article in 2010 pertaining to restoration pruning is a rip off from Ed Gilmans publication(s), Not to mention other publications which if one reads the compilation of ceu articles......well the article in question more than borrows from such........Nice Try Seer!!*

BTW..... what in here needs moderation? Oooooo the truth needs moderated cause it shows & proves the point that you dont care to be made public.........Not one thing stated in here needs moderation, its opinions & printed facts right outta your publication & that scares you into the rant you just posted............the truth is: the formula you ended your tantrem with reflects more the ISA & TCIA`s methodologies than those from here, its ok to be wrong Seer....thats how ya learn, but apparently you think you`re beyond that & so does the philly tree wizard, Its a shame...........even when wrong you`re to stubborn to admit such but have to make up stuff to support it............. If you`re a BCMA then this trade is truly in trouble & in need of an enema!!




LXT.............


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## ForTheArborist (Dec 19, 2011)

lxt said:


> The toilet just overflowed when you posted!!! your work is reviewed by WHO????? more like authors & editors revising your hash for print!!!
> 
> My work is easily found......a simple search would of taken care of that: check in the tree care video section, threads ( ameriquip old but good & genie in action)..........like I said, I posted to show the functionality of a machine.......not to gloat & pretend Im some professor of arboriculture like you & Murph, which by you two`s postings shows how much more you two have to learn, maybe you should hang up writing in the arb news for awhile & get a little more field experience under your belt & as for Murph.....well what can members at two sites say that hasnt already been said..............
> 
> ...





You're clearly insane.

In my opinion the due time healing a fractured mandible would remedy problems like yours. 

Rx


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## lxt (Dec 19, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> You're clearly insane.
> 
> In my opinion the due time healing a fractured mandible would remedy problems like yours.
> 
> Rx





Dude......WTF, you lose me in your posts all the time FTA #1 they make no sense & #2 they`re written so poorly that one needs an interpreter to figure em out!

Im far from insane (well maybe), when you see what that kinda surgery costs & what my portion owed is......you heal up real quick & do what ya can, Im not in the big trees yet!!! Just doing small to medium stuff right now & I can pay for it if im not careful, mostly doing wind broke limb removals & inspections, got some land clearing stuff that Ill be using the mini dozer on....but nothing currently impressive enough to "film" & honestly Im either climbing, chipping, selling work or running some equipment to get r done!

In all reality though this will prolly be my last year doing the work end of the tree biz........trying to make the transition in to other avenues, consulting (which is going good), plantings, landscaping, design, etc.... as far as the ticker goes the cardiologist has me unrestricted (must use commonsense though) the hard thing is picking stuff up & dragging brush.......the rest dont bother me much............



LXT................


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## ForTheArborist (Dec 19, 2011)

God ya. Anybody who can just drag brush, I'll take off my hat to them.....err.....give my hat to them. I don't wear hats much any more. My point is that pull work is bull's work. That work is perfect for weeding out the weenies. I wouldn't trust a foreman or anyone working another position for me unless they proved they could pull brush for a good long time. Not even if they waste good and full hours of my time begging me, and claiming they have proof they are fascinating and exuberant. :bang: Pull the brush. Then we'll talk.


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## millbilly (Dec 19, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> God ya. Anybody who can just drag brush, I'll take off my hat to them.....err.....give my hat to them. I don't wear hats much any more. My point is that pull work is bull's work. That work is perfect for weeding out the weenies. I wouldn't trust a foreman or anyone working another position for me unless they proved they could pull brush for a good long time. Not even if they waste good and full hours of my time begging me, and claiming they have proof they are fascinating and exuberant. :bang: Pull the brush. Then we'll talk.



I don't know if I'm ready for brush yet, but I'm pretty good on the rake. you interested?


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## ForTheArborist (Dec 19, 2011)

millbilly said:


> I don't know if I'm ready for brush yet, but I'm pretty good on the rake. you interested?


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## NCTREE (Feb 9, 2014)

I wonder how murph's poplar faired in the ice storm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 9, 2014)

NCTREE said:


> I wonder how murph's poplar faired in the ice storm
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Trees prolly laying face first in the gutter


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 9, 2014)

treeclimber101 said:


> Trees prolly laying face first in the gutter



Bored?
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 9, 2014)

jefflovstrom said:


> Bored?
> Jeff


Hurting !


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## NCTREE (Feb 9, 2014)

jefflovstrom said:


> Bored?
> Jeff


Actually something is wrong with tapatalk and all these old threads are coming up on my "participated in" and no of the recent ones are showing. Gave me a little blast from the past.


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## millbilly (Feb 9, 2014)

The last notice I got about this thread it was like 7 pages, To much to read. What ever happened to Murph?


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## Pelorus (Feb 9, 2014)

Made it through the first 11 pages.
Going to take a break to recover a bit before attempting the summit.


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## NCTREE (Feb 9, 2014)

Speaking of large cuts at the trunk here is some pic of a very large pin oak that I just removed. I took pictures of the wound before I cut it last year. Obviously who ever made the cut didn't make it right and also transferred pathogens to to tree. I cut a red oak down next to it last year that was in decline and every where a cut was made the tree was dying back.










http://img.tapatalk.com/d/
14/02/10/eny9aran.jpg
This is what it looked like inside after it was cut.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pelorus (Feb 9, 2014)

I learned a couple of things from this thread, such as it is ok to leave ugly stubs if you don't want to make cuts just outside the branch collar, cause the collar cuts might be too large to compartmentalize, and decay may result. The stubby stobs will also eventually decay into the trunk, but that is ok. I will have to see if my clients are ok with this new method of reduction hackerry.


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## 68 Buick (Feb 11, 2014)

mattfr12 said:


> Ya i worked at bartlett before it was even bartlett i worked for jim then he was bought out by bartlett along with urban tree care and I'm not sure where rich came from but he was also a salesperson their when i worked their. The office is in imperial now when i worked their it was in crafton close to shemmins nursery.
> 
> ya thier main business is pruning and thats 90% of what i did for them for years and I've just never heard or seen anyone do anything like this nor would it be acceptable. i did a lot of mount lebanon oaks i think people would get killed if you did something like that to one of their trees.


I worked at the Lebanon branch for a little while myself. It's been a long time but I believe the one guys was Norm Brenner ( I think ) and the managers name was Lou.


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## PassionForTrees (Feb 11, 2014)

Hey Im all for trying to promote proper tree care and showing how it's done, but I have a couple issues with this one and Im open to get all of your replies back. One - as others have mentioned the stubs?? come one that's a no no. as Pelorus said it, decay one way or the other. Now if a tree is healthy and has good uptake and is in good health it should be able to compartmentalize most wounds unless of course they are so big in diameter and may take many many years if ever to close up, thus introducing decay. The pruning the long lateral ends to reduce the weight thus crown reduction here on this Tulip is a bit too much in my opinion, The lateral branches need to maintain the terminal role, if you take away too much of that you will just sucker out and introduce decay anyway along with epicormic weaker branches / suckers that get big. Reducing the ends on a much smaller scale and then selective thinning and cleaning is all you can and should do, it's like topping is back right!! well so is topping sideways if it's taken that much back and worse leaving stubs and not the 1/3rs rule at least. Now it's nice to have a tall reach bucket sure is but if you are driving on the root zone of the tree your compacting the soil and roots, Matts were used I hope to minimize that, and a great climber will get all those cuts made even better than the video, but a good climber may not get out as far which isnt needed anyway.


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## FanOFatherNash (Feb 12, 2014)

murphy4trees said:


> tulip tip prune .mov - YouTube
> 
> Here's the latest effort at promoting proper pruning technique... It was originally intended to inform homeowners about good pruning and the harm that improper pruning can do.. A bit repetitive but overall a good low budget effort.
> 
> I have another one coming, which was shot right after an early snow storm did a lot of damage, as many trees were still in full leaf..


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## FanOFatherNash (Feb 12, 2014)

What do you do when they call you to " properly prune a 150' tulip poplar "
75' bucket with 75' pole saw?


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## Zale (Feb 12, 2014)

All you new posters are going to get Murph riled up and you don't want that. If he chimes in, this thread will go another 14 pages.


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 12, 2014)

I just watched that painful 6 minute video again ....... It just dawn on me that he basically trashes all other companies ! I have never heard that man say a kind word about another company ! I wonder how he is doing in life


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## rtsims (Feb 12, 2014)

I just watched this vid for the first time and here are my thoughts, feel free to take them or leave them. I completely agree with the theory of limb tip reduction, weight reduction, and wind sail but... Many of the cuts in this vid are heading cuts (cutting limbs to a stub or lateral not large enough to take the role of apical dominance). Also, pruning cuts made at a branch collar even on those small 1-2" limbs are best for the tree. That is where limbs are shed naturally. Not saying Murph does, or does not do good work but if your going to make an informational vid on proper pruning the least you could do is show proper pruning. Also drives me nuts when company owners promote there work by comparing it to another companies "bad work".


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## Menchhofer (Feb 12, 2014)

Just another example of how people on this site cannot filter their comments properly. Like a bunch of immature kids here.This is the main reason why most veteran members have left and gone elsewhere.

I personally agree with Murph and support his work and the video. He is just relating his personal experiences and expertise via a video. You guys are like a pack of wolves just waiting for the chance to get in there and tear off a piece of the meat.


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 12, 2014)

Well maybe the truth is the truth ! Maybe the members here can be just a bunch of agreers who are like robots ! God knows there are plenty of those forums !


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## Pelorus (Feb 12, 2014)

Menchhofer said:


> Just another example of how people on this site cannot filter their comments properly. Like a bunch of immature kids here.This is the main reason why most veteran members have left and gone elsewhere.
> I personally agree with Murph and support his work and the video. He is just relating his personal experiences and expertise via a video. You guys are like a pack of wolves just waiting for the chance to get in there and tear off a piece of the meat.



I disagree with the work and the video. Take a look at page 44 of the Feb 2014 TCI magazine...the photo, with these accompanying words: "..._this once great elm was severely cut back to reduce the weight of it's canopy. Sadly, too much canopy was cut back in one season. The tree never recovered_..." (In spite of that inconvenient sadness some here vehemently disagree with the ISA prescribing percentage limits like 25% foliage reduction; presumably because they don't need to follow no rules)
This business (Murph's vid or otherwise) of making heading cuts is bogus arboriculture to me. The cut limb sprouts (who woulda thunk it?) and those damn sprouts grow and grow (like nature intended) and in a couple of years the client gets to pay you to go play God again rebutchering the poor tree. To make it "safer".


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## NCTREE (Feb 12, 2014)

Pelorus said:


> I disagree with the work and the video. Take a look at page 44 of the Feb 2014 TCI magazine...the photo, with these accompanying words: "..._this once great elm was severely cut back to reduce the weight of it's canopy. Sadly, too much canopy was cut back in one season. The tree never recovered_..." (In spite of that inconvenient sadness some here vehemently disagree with the ISA prescribing percentage limits like 25% foliage reduction; presumably because they don't need to follow no rules)
> This business (Murph's vid or otherwise) of making heading cuts is bogus arboriculture to me. The cut limb sprouts (who woulda thunk it?) and those damn sprouts grow and grow (like nature intended) and in a couple of years the client gets to pay you to go play God again rebutchering the poor tree. To make it "safer".


I have to disagree with that, if the cuts are made properly then sprouting growth is redirected to the inner and lower section of the tree not where the cuts were made. Some trees can handle a heavy prune(>25%) I think poplar is one of them, and old elm maybe not so, you must use good judgement. I am not promoting reduction cuts as an everyday way to prune but in some situations it's the only option.


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## Pelorus (Feb 12, 2014)

I understand the benefit of promoting growth to the inner part of an older tree, but when you have latent buds, or epicormic buds or whatever you want to call them located where the limb got reduced, (cause you headed them back to a small limb or nodes, right?) won't they sprout? I hope they do, otherwise those headed back limbs may really disagree with the haircut by, like dying, or decaying.


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## NCTREE (Feb 12, 2014)

Small cuts back to a healthy lateral no bigger than 1" to 2" is key. I've had a chance to see first hand damage from the recent ice storm that hit the area it's funny how all those trees that were overly crown raised or thinned out sustain most of the damage. The trees that survive with no damage were the trees that were never pruned or had tip work(not topping) done to them.


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## Pelorus (Feb 12, 2014)

_"Actually, many studies have shown that the outside limbs can divert some wind from the center of the tree and act as a buffering shield. Aggressive thinning, on the other hand, can make the remaining branches more vulnerable to failure; left isolated, these limbs must take on the elements alone. Pruning out a major portion of a tree’s canopy for the sake of staying upright during a wind storm harms most trees in the long ru_n."

excerpt from an article published by the Washington State Department of Natural Resources.


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## Pelorus (Feb 12, 2014)

Only posted that as a counterpoint to selling a client on making a tree "safer" by thinning it.
Gotta confess I find this "proper pruning" biz a bit confusing. Seems like a convincing case can be made either way. Strong enough wind is gonna bust up a tree whether or not it has had some limbs amputated or partially amputated, or not pruned at all.


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 12, 2014)

Safest thing for a tulip is reduce it about 75' and then reduce it about 12" below the dirt line !


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## kyle goddard (Feb 13, 2014)

Am i the only one that seen the wires by the trunk cuts? Op can you elaborate on that for me. 
Bty a climber can get out on them tips. Srt the $h!t out of that tree. 
Also how far in can you prune with a bulky bucket? Just saying buckets have limits, as do climbers. 
Looks like a good tree to tag team the pare. Get it pare. Lmao
so corny


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## teamtree (Feb 14, 2014)

I hear alot of talk about proper pruning but in all honesty....how much pruning is done to satisfy the customer's want more so than the health of the tree or safety of customer. Anything more than pruning a deadlimb is unnecessary or improper but yet we all make money doing it. Almost every time the customer tells me to trim it like it is mine and I walk away and don't do anything, they get upset.....even though I did not charge them anything.


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## Zale (Feb 14, 2014)

kyle goddard said:


> Am i the only one that seen the wires by the trunk cuts? Op can you elaborate on that for me.
> Bty a climber can get out on them tips. Srt the $h!t out of that tree.
> Also how far in can you prune with a bulky bucket? Just saying buckets have limits, as do climbers.
> Looks like a good tree to tag team the pare. Get it pare. Lmao
> so corny




Please, do not wake the beast. You know not what you are doing.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 14, 2014)

FanOFatherNash said:


> What do you do when they call you to " properly prune a 150' tulip poplar "
> 75' bucket with 75' pole saw?



You must of been thinking of something, but it did not come out in your post.
Please elaborate.
Jeff


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 14, 2014)

teamtree said:


> I hear alot of talk about proper pruning but in all honesty....how much pruning is done to satisfy the customer's want more so than the health of the tree or safety of customer. Anything more than pruning a deadlimb is unnecessary or improper but yet we all make money doing it. Almost every time the customer tells me to trim it like it is mine and I walk away and don't do anything, they get upset.....even though I did not charge them anything.



You need to read Ed Gilman's book.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 14, 2014)

teamtree said:


> I hear alot of talk about proper pruning but in all honesty....how much pruning is done to satisfy the customer's want more so than the health of the tree or safety of customer. Anything more than pruning a deadlimb is unnecessary or improper but yet we all make money doing it. Almost every time the customer tells me to trim it like it is mine and I walk away and don't do anything, they get upset.....even though I did not charge them anything.


What was the out come?

When you bow down, and don't educate, because it is a regular bid,
You are bidding against hacks,,
Jeff opcorn:


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## teamtree (Feb 15, 2014)

BC WetCoast said:


> You need to read Ed Gilman's book.


ok....


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## teamtree (Feb 15, 2014)

jefflovstrom said:


> What was the out come?
> 
> When you bow down, and don't educate, because it is a regular bid,
> You are bidding against hacks,,
> Jeff opcorn:


I do quite a bit to educate customers. You have never had a customer complain about not trimming enough out fo the tree?
I try to educate them taking less is the best thing. I am a believer that more harm comes from pruning for purposes (clearance, fear, etc.) other than the health of the tree. Pruning dead limbs is a matter of safety and does little to improve the health of the tree (imho). Leave it to arboristsite to bring out the negative in everything. You could take ten guys out and ask them to prune/trim the exact tree and you are going to end up with 10 different results.
Who is right? How many different opinions are there on the this sight.


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## teamtree (Feb 15, 2014)

You are missing my point. The majority of my pruning is done out of the needs and wants of the customer, rather than the health of the tree. I understand the values of pruning but I think in the case of this video...the tree would have been fine without the pruning in my opinion. I just think pruning is so subjective to the pruner and there are so many factors that go into what should be pruned on each tree it is done incorrectly most times.


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## teamtree (Feb 15, 2014)

BC WetCoast said:


> You need to read Ed Gilman's book.


He has many good points......and you are missing my point. I was not speaking of what is right or wrong....I was speaking about what actually is done in the real world.....most of it is for purposes other than the health of the tree.


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## teamtree (Feb 15, 2014)

teamtree said:


> I hear alot of talk about proper pruning but in all honesty....how much pruning is done to satisfy the customer's want more so than the health of the tree or safety of customer. Anything more than pruning a deadlimb is unnecessary or improper but yet we all make money doing it. Almost every time the customer tells me to trim it like it is mine and I walk away and don't do anything, they get upset.....even though I did not charge them anything.


I read my post and admit I made a mistake. There are many reasons for pruning trees. I was wrong in saying "anything more than a deadlimb is unnecessary".....there are many reasons. In my area....I think there is so much topping that goes on that I fight people to do the right thing and when you properly prune a tree....the overall size is not reduced significantly.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 15, 2014)

teamtree said:


> I read my post and admit I made a mistake. There are many reasons for pruning trees. I was wrong in saying "anything more than a deadlimb is unnecessary".....there are many reasons. In my area....I think there is so much topping that goes on that I fight people to do the right thing and when you properly prune a tree....the overall size is not reduced significantly.


I think that is the time for education. When I go on bids that are asking for topping or over pruning. I will go over the pros and cons in detail. I try to re educate them. I want them to walk away smarter, not confused. I warn them up front of what to expect to see. Some trees, after dead wooding, look like ya took half the tree, even tho you didnt take anything live, where as others, you cant really tell that someone was even in the tree. Alot of people get concerned with size, I try to explain why most of the time, their concerns are conjured up out of false info. "the tree is leaning" Nope it just wants sun. " that big branch over the deck, its going to fall" Nope, actually that is the best one on the tree, but lets talk about the large chunk of deadwood at the top.


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## NCTREE (Feb 15, 2014)

teamtree said:


> I hear alot of talk about proper pruning but in all honesty....how much pruning is done to satisfy the customer's want more so than the health of the tree or safety of customer. Anything more than pruning a deadlimb is unnecessary or improper but yet we all make money doing it. Almost every time the customer tells me to trim it like it is mine and I walk away and don't do anything, they get upset.....even though I did not charge them anything.


Yes you are right, and if you would be pruning for the sake of the tree instead of the customer then you'd be walking away from a lot of business. I agree less is more and more unessary pruning promotes faster growth which can be a bad thing but when it comes to a HO who is going to have his tree trimmed no matter what would you rather do it or have some hack come and top the **** out of it.


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## 68 Buick (Feb 15, 2014)

I've been reading this thread for awhile now and have found some very good insight and others oh well. I do agree with Teamtree about having 10 different pruning results. As far as proper pruning of this tulip, I believe it is called topping, if you reduce the crown by how ever much you want, it is being topped. If you stay within the interior of the tree and remove how ever much you are going to remove, this is called pruning. Now all depends on how much you remove, will determine whether your just a hack or a butcher or someone trying to do best for the tree. So I think this Tulip got topped not pruned.


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## NCTREE (Feb 15, 2014)

It's funny how these treads get started showing quote on quote Proper Pruning but never see follow up results. If your going to promote a video about proper pruning then show us results if your trying to sell something. Earth to Murph??? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pelorus (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm curious to see the results 20 or more years later on an old tree (located in the Northeastern USA or Canada) with lots of decay and low vigour that has been heavily reduction pruning or "retrenched" to give it the secret of immortality via beauty cream treatments. Waving the magic pruning wand supposedly makes the old girl become a teenager again. Dr. Murphy and Associates get to periodically bill the client for taking the revitalized Joan Rivers under his personal care: fertilizing / mulching / aerating, more pruning, some cabling, more pruning, inspections, soil tests, unexpected deadwooding / limb failure remediation, (just a minor setback - sorry to hear your parked car got whacked) dammit more pruning, and so on to keep the ole girl looking spiffy.


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 15, 2014)

68 Buick said:


> I've been reading this thread for awhile now and have found some very good insight and others oh well. I do agree with Teamtree about having 10 different pruning results. As far as proper pruning of this tulip, I believe it is called topping, if you reduce the crown by how ever much you want, it is being topped. If you stay within the interior of the tree and remove how ever much you are going to remove, this is called pruning. Now all depends on how much you remove, will determine whether your just a hack or a butcher or someone trying to do best for the tree. So I think this Tulip got topped not pruned.



Topping is defined as reducing the height of the tree using an internodal cut. If you reduce the stem by taking it back to a proper lateral (1/3 diameter) then it's defined as drop crotch pruning. 

There are many legitimate reasons why trees are reduced, either in height or girth and not considered topping. For example in conifers, you may be establishing a hedge. Around here, a 40' high cedar hedge is not uncommon. I know of some 65' cypress trees that are sheared and retopped every 3 years. In the past, many conifers were topped (due to ignorance of practice) and now have multi topped, poorly attached leaders. For many customers retopping these trees is financially more tolerable than a removal.

On deciduous trees, you may reduce or subordinate codominates to establish a strong central leader. The key is to subordinate back to a proper lateral.

Arboriculture isn't rocket science, it's way more complex than that.


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## Zale (Feb 15, 2014)

Well, here we go again. The old topping vs. reduction cut argument. Can the moderators please lock this thread?


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## NCTREE (Feb 16, 2014)

Zale said:


> Well, here we go again. The old topping vs. reduction cut argument. Can the moderators please lock this thread?


ok I guess we will go back to talking about snow plows and snow storms since that is the only interesting thing to talk about.


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## gorman (Feb 16, 2014)

I hate taking large limbs off for customers. Most times they don't care what I tell them, so I relent and give them a quote for a 12" limb and take it to the collar. 

Wish people would care but there's only so much talking I can do until I realize I'm late for the next appt.


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## NCTREE (Feb 16, 2014)

Yep! that is what it comes down to, I find the longer I'm in this profession the less I care about the tree because it doesn't matter what you say to the customer they have the final word.


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## Pelorus (Feb 16, 2014)

I do the best job I can for a fair price, and hopefully they recommend me to others. 
A good reputation is really important in a small town.


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