# Marl or half-hitch?



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 13, 2006)

I truck this question out every other year...

Is a marl better to back up a knot when blocking big wood? I prefer it beacuse it seems to stay in place better.


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## Redbull (Jan 13, 2006)

I voted that they are interchangealble for the reason that they both serve the same purpose to distribute the load over more rope. But I agree, the marl does stay in place better


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## skwerl (Jan 13, 2006)

I typically only use running bowlines when rigging wood. Never backed one up and never had one slip. I do leave several inches tail and I always make sure the knot is dressed before loading. 
I've heard several people here talk about the bowline rolling out but IMO it's virtually impossible if the knot is tied and dressed correctly. But I only have 20 years experience using it.


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## Redbull (Jan 13, 2006)

The only time I would use a marl or 1/2 hitch is if I was blocking down heavy wood onto a block. 99% of the time it's just a plain ol running bowline. But I only have 2yrs using it


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## OutOnaLimb (Jan 14, 2006)

If ya wanna go super secure go with a marl then a round turn and a running bowline. Ye ole running bowline is what I use. And like Rocky I have never had one slip. Just make sure you leave 4-6" of tail. I did have a water not come out of some webbing once because I didnt leave enough tail. Im now of the opinion that a man can never get to much tail. 

Kenn


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## Stumper (Jan 14, 2006)

I see the marl or half hitch as a means to reduce the fall distance into rigging. Your attachment knot (be it running bowline, clove hitch,timber hitch or whatever) does not belong mere inches above the kerf. A marl can be near the cut since if it were to slip off the butt the piece will not merely free fall to the ground/roof/ swimming pool/patio/priceless sculpture/etc.. From a strength and security standpoint its only real benefit lies in reducing shockloading since either half hitch or marl bend the rope on itself in a cordage weakening configuration. For many years I used a clove hitch with a couple of security half hitches around the standing line as my primary attachment knot for lowering chunks off on the source spar. It really wasn't better--just familiar. A clove with spread wraps was useful for lowering short chunks flat..... but how important is that? I'm more inclined to use a running bowline with a marl these days. -Or just a running bowline.


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## Mike Cantolina (Jan 14, 2006)

I first learned this from Tom Dunlap here on AS. If you have a long dead branch that may break apart you can tie as many marls as necessary along the branch and finish with a running bowline.

I prefer the marl

Mike


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## rbtree (Jan 14, 2006)

A marl, while it does hold better than a half hitch, puts a tighter bend in the line, so may not be as strong.

Stumper, how close the section being lowered is tied to the end does not affect how far it freefalls before being caught.....


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## Dadatwins (Jan 15, 2006)

I would use the marl and running bowline on anything long, straight and slick.
elm, hickory, red oaks and pine. I have never had a bowline come out that was tied right but I like the security of the extra marl and I think it keeps the log being cut pointing vertical for tighter drop zones. I also will use a few on dead limbs and logs when the possibility of them breaking apart, on stuff like dead pine and poplar. The 1/2 hitch may be more secure but I would think it would tighten up and be difficult to untie if used in its place.


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## kf_tree (Jan 15, 2006)

if i'm roping a short chunk with no nubs and i'm worried it might slip. i'll just cut a small "v" into the wood and place the rope in it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 15, 2006)

Marl gives extra grip, but also extra setting i think too. It can leave list of overhand knots in line if slipped off; but then one of them can be used to keep ascending line from racing thru pulley.

i think each gives 2nd grab on load and buffers loading to the Runnning Bowline (or Clove etc.).

i about always lower with a half hitch preceding, for enhanced security each grab (bowline and half hitch) is on/ locks on natural imprefection or small humboldt etc. i cut to lay/lock line into.


There is another reason though for preceding with one of these strategies. i think properly, a Bowline is maid to deliver perpendicular to load; so that the pull on the bowline is straight/inline/ not at leveraged angle witht he Standing Part. In lowering this is achieved only with balanced load. 

Usually the load is off balanced, so that 1 end is heavy and load carries pairallell to line. This means that the bowline has to pull at leveraged angle to the pull of it's Standing Part. Preceding with a marl or half hitch reduces the pull to the Bowline, and is unleveraged pull on the marl/half hitch. 

The Bowline is still finally pulled at leveraged angle after reducing force thru marl/half-hitch; so is still levraged per the force flowing to bolwine but;_ that reduced pull on bowline is not leveraged per the initial loading on the Standing Part_! So, therefore is safer, higher SWL; but at no loss to it's reciprocal of elasticity! (Usually a higher SWL gives lower elasticity as trade off).


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## bottlefed89 (Jan 16, 2006)

I voted interchangeable because I think you could say they both have their strong and weak points.. Like Rb said, the marl will put a tighter bend in the line, thus reducing strength. I could see people liking the half-hitch since if it slipped would not knot the rope... 


RB, how does the point of tying not affect the distance a chunk will freefall before being caught?? seems like it would..


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## Lumberjack (Jan 16, 2006)

rbtree said:


> A marl, while it does hold better than a half hitch, puts a tighter bend in the line, so may not be as strong.
> 
> Stumper, how close the section being lowered is tied to the end does not affect how far it freefalls before being caught.....



+1


The distance a piece falls is not how far the butt of the piece moves, but the distance the COG moves. Where you tie the piece doesnt effect the length of the COG's fall.

An important realization. It is illustrated in The Art and Science of Practical Rigging.


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## bottlefed89 (Jan 16, 2006)

Interesting, I'll have to look back through the book, or tapes..


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## kennertree (Jan 16, 2006)

bottlefed89 said:


> Interesting, I'll have to look back through the book, or tapes..


Its on tape #8


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## KentuckySawyer (Jan 16, 2006)

I've never used a marl, and I've never had a chunk slip out of my half hitch.


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## Stumper (Jan 16, 2006)

rbtree said:


> A marl, while it does hold better than a half hitch, puts a tighter bend in the line, so may not be as strong.
> 
> Stumper, how close the section being lowered is tied to the end does not affect how far it freefalls before being caught.....



You are correct. I stated that badly. Butt hitching and keeping the amount of line from the block to the tie as short as possible reduces the ammount of dancing the piece will do when it hits the rigging. Tip tie far above the block and stuff will bounce all over the place. Tie near the COG and it is hard to predict exactly how it will wobble before stabilizing. Tied at the end with minimum free rope you know it will hang and has little room to wiggle and jiggle.


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## Redbull (Jan 17, 2006)

bottlefed89 said:


> Interesting, I'll have to look back through the book, or tapes..



I remeber seeing that when I watched the tapes. You wanna pick them up on Thurs.?


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## Lumberjack (Jan 17, 2006)

Stumper said:


> You are correct. I stated that badly. Butt hitching and keeping the amount of line from the block to the tie as short as possible reduces the ammount of dancing the piece will do when it hits the rigging. Tip tie far above the block and stuff will bounce all over the place. Tie near the COG and it is hard to predict exactly how it will wobble before stabilizing. Tied at the end with minimum free rope you know it will hang and has little room to wiggle and jiggle.



That can be attributed to the weight above the knot offering some ammount of counterweight to the peices below, allowing the wiggling to be eaiser. A peice that is symetric in weight distribution and is tied in the center can hang anywhere around the clock because the weight is balanced. On a shorter tie the see saw is weighed heavily to the fat mans side, tying closer moves the fulcrum closer to the fat man giving the skinny some extra leverage.


If that makes sense...


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 27, 2006)

The slipping attributed to bowlines isn't within the knot which would result in the know coming untied. Arbos have much more faith, and experience, with loading plain old bowlines than other rope workers. The only annecdotal stories that I've ever heard about bowlines coming untied were in lw load situations or someone didn't tie the bowline properly. that's not a bowlinf failure, that's pilot error. 

The slipping is because the rope loop opens up and doesn't stay choked on the piece. Then the rope hangs and the piece falls. This leads to sever butt-pucker and a localized drop in ambient air pressure as the whole crew sucks in, hoping that they haven't used up all of their luck that day. In most cases, they have, and the out of controll piece embraces the most expensive piece of property in the area. I know, I had that happen before I started using marls.

A marl and half hitch are not interchangeable. The hlaf hitch stays snugged onto the piece and doesn't move around or droop like hip hop pants. A marl can slip off the butt end of a chunk with the same results as mentioned above. The only difference is that the pressure loss is less because the piece still should be held by the running bowline. The falling piece is only half out of control and will generally only crash into less expensive pieces of property. 

Any time that a rigger thinks that a knot compromises the strength of a rigging setup it is time to stop and make one of two changes. Either cut a smaller piece or use bigger rigging. The loss of effeciency when using a knot, or hitch, should always be a non-factor.

Like others have said, using it as a butt hitch to reduce fall distance is uber important when working big wood. Pete Donzelli wrote an article about that titled "All in all, it's about reduing the length of the fall"


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## grnlfclimber (Jan 27, 2006)

*marl or half hitch*

I have been rigging for 6 tears and never had a bowline slip or break. a marl are we talking about a marlin spike hitch? if so its OK but it makes things slow on the ground and totally unnessesary. and if the branch is faered to break apart on cutting you should have no business in the tree use a lift! W:bangrk smarter not harder!:bang:


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 27, 2006)

grnlfclimber said:


> I have been rigging for 6 tears and never had a bowline slip or break. a marl are we talking about a marlin spike hitch? if so its OK but it makes things slow on the ground and totally unnessesary. and if the branch is faered to break apart on cutting you should have no business in the tree use a lift! W:bangrk smarter not harder!:bang:



Six years??? I don't think that I had my first piece slip until I had been cutting and rigging for 10 or more years. Does it happen? Sure does...very often? NO, but the work we do is a lot of skill and a bit of luck. No one is lucky all of the time. Don't be so confident that it won't ever happen.

Do a search on 'marl' and 'marlin spike hitch' so that you have a bit more knowledge to make yourself a better rigger. Do you have 'Ashley's book of Knots" ? Anyone who works with rope should have that and study the knots. 

Why would you need a lift to rig out one, single, decayed limb? I don't think that you understand the application. Maybe a thousand words will have to subsitute for a picture tonight. 

There's a dead limb that needs to come down. The rest of the tree is solid and 100% secure. the limb has access above and below. Start out at the end with a running bowline and then work your way down the limb using marls to wrap and secure the limb. Then, when the limb is cut, if the branch breaks any where along the length, the marls will hold it from falling into pieces. You take a bit of time to rig but are rewarded by only making one cut and lower. Much safer that making a lot of small cuts. 

I've used this same technique to break down a long limb that couldn't be cut as one. Think of this, the limb is hanging laterally over an obstruction. you don't have vertical or horizontal clearance to take the whole limb and your only rigging point is high and inside the tree. By marling and cutting small pieces, the next marl becomes the rigging point. Cut and let things hang until you work back to the trunk. By now, the rigging point is straight above and you can lower the whole mess, which should be strung out below you like a freight train, to the ground. 

You have the advantage in your six years of climbing to have access and connection to arbos and info from around the world. Back in the old days  us older guys struggled along learning by ourselves. There wasn't a way to add to or glean from other experiences. By keeping an open mind your next umpteen years of rigging will be easier and safer than other generations.


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## DDM (Jan 28, 2006)

Since this is arborist 101 we need pictures. http://www.realknots.com/p/k/hhmarlst.gif <--Marl
http://www.realknots.com/p/k/hahh01.gif<--Half
http://www.realknots.com/p/k/lh1pst.gif <--Bowline

Because I'm anal i always use atleast 1 marl for anything over 
1" Haven't had anything slip yet.I rigged down a 16" x 40' white oak leader over a house yesterday in 5' pieces I used 2 marls and a bowline.


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## grnlfclimber (Jan 28, 2006)

I would like to apologize if I offended but thats why it called an opinion.I have never been shown a MArl therefor it is useless to me. Thank you for the powerful insight I have learnd alot from you and this site and I wish to keep learning.


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## stoneland (Feb 5, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlefed89
Interesting, I'll have to look back through the book, or tapes.. 

What tapes you are talking about?


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## Redbull (Feb 5, 2006)

stoneland said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by bottlefed89
> Interesting, I'll have to look back through the book, or tapes..
> 
> What tapes you are talking about?



The Art & Science of Practical Rigging. It's a pretty comprehensive set of videos on rigging.


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## stoneland (Feb 5, 2006)

where might I find these videos?

thanks


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## Redbull (Feb 5, 2006)

stoneland said:


> where might I find these videos?
> 
> thanks



Click on the link to Sherrill Arborist Supply at the top of the page. They have them. I have to warn you though, they're pricey.


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## stoneland (Feb 5, 2006)

Thanks


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