# Found a decent deal on an 044



## USMC0802 (Aug 21, 2010)

I bought 2 cords of split oak last December/January that had only been split in the fall of '09. I went to pick it up this week and after I was done, the guy selling the wood was asked if I'd be interested in taking some of his chainsaw stuff off his hands as he wouldn't need it anymore. He had a big red oak taken down and he used to sell a little firewood here and there.

He shows me the saw in the shed...an 044, looks in good shaped, needs a cleaning, serial number starts out 131...... (I'm pretty sure that's a 12mm model) and says he wants to get rid of all the bars and chains for it. He says the saw was running a couple weeks ago when he cut up some branches that fell in a storm, but was having trouble keeping it running.

I tell him to let me know what he wants for it when I come back the next day to get the wood my father in law bought.

He's got a 2 28" bars, a 32" (3/8", 0.050"), and an 18" (.325 pitch) and chain, and about 7 32" chains, and 5 or 6 28" chains, all a mix of Stihl and Oregon, and an extra Stihl starter assembly with new starter rope and pulley. He tells me he was thinking $100 for all of it.

I think the saw just needs a cleaning, maybe a carb rebuild, and/or a fuel line. Didn't have time to pull the muffler and I don't have a compression tester, but worst case scenario is I put a P&C in it and still got a deal. I don't expect it to need a lot to get it going. The guy has been a neighbor to my wife's grandparents for a while and seems like a good dude. I'm looking forward to getting this thing running.


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## longbar (Aug 21, 2010)

Good score brother!!!!


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## little possum (Aug 21, 2010)

Almost sounds too good to be true.

But congrats on the find, although I wish it were me


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## USMC0802 (Aug 21, 2010)

little possum said:


> Almost sounds too good to be true.
> 
> But congrats on the find, although I wish it were me



Two of the bars aren't close to new. They have life left, but it's not like they're new bars. The one 28" bar has only seen a few cuts before I put it in a sweet gum today.

I was surprised at the $100 price tag, but I think he more or less wanted the space back in his shed as he has several other saws, lighter, more appropriate for the around the house work than an 044 with a 28 or 32" bar on it.


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## chopperfreak2k1 (Aug 21, 2010)

man what a deal!!! congrats!







oh and pix of course are required!


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## dingeryote (Aug 21, 2010)

Heck of a snag!!

Best saw Stihl ever made and no flippy caps!!!

I'll bet it just needs a good cleaning and a carb enema from sitting.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## hiluxxulih (Aug 21, 2010)

*12MM Stihl 044 ?*

OK I have read about the 12MM thing what is it ? I remember when I got my p&c for my Stihl 044 beater parts box saw the piston wouldnt fit so I just used the old piston in the new cylinder is that why ?


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## Brian13 (Aug 21, 2010)

hiluxxulih said:


> OK I have read about the 12MM thing what is it ? I remember when I got my p&c for my Stihl 044 beater parts box saw the piston wouldnt fit so I just used the old piston in the new cylinder is that why ?



The older saws use a 10mm wrist pin, and the bb kits and a lot of the other kits have a 12mm wrist pin. 


Great deal. If the bars are in good shape, you pretty much bout some bars and chain and got a free 044 with them.


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## jd548esco72 (Aug 21, 2010)

you can't hardly go wrong t=with the 044/440!


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## 1steve (Aug 21, 2010)

we need pictures


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## USMC0802 (Aug 21, 2010)

I'll get pictures tonight or tomorrow. I just spent three hours with the hydraulic splitter and I have a little stacking to do.


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## hiluxxulih (Aug 21, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> The older saws use a 10mm wrist pin, and the bb kits and a lot of the other kits have a 12mm wrist pin.
> 
> 
> Great deal. If the bars are in good shape, you pretty much bout some bars and chain and got a free 044 with them.



I wonder why someone hasnt made brass filler to put a 12mm piston in a 10mm saw .


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## procarbine2k1 (Aug 21, 2010)

Sounds like a nice addition. I picked one up a couple weeks ago, and no doubt they are popular for a reason. Cant beat 100 bones, good score!


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## fatjoe (Aug 21, 2010)

*aWSOME DEAL!!*

Nice score!, 10MM or 12MM their both great saws.I`ve got one of each, and can`t tell a difference.Good for you!!!!


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## smilin possum (Aug 22, 2010)

Some people have all the luck. If I could find another dozen 044's I'd get um. The best saw Stihl ever made.


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## chopperfreak2k1 (Aug 22, 2010)

:censored: a dozen?!?! brother i GOTTA cut with you!!!


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## smilin possum (Aug 22, 2010)

chopperfreak2k1 said:


> :censored: a dozen?!?! brother i GOTTA cut with you!!!



Your welcome too anytime. Just a short hop from Pa. to my woods, you can be home for you turn into a punkin.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 22, 2010)

smilin possum said:


> Some people have all the luck. If I could find another dozen 044's I'd get um. The best saw Stihl ever made.



Luck? You can have it. I just dealt with a $12,000 home repair because my home inspector screwed up. I'd gladly pay $400 for a saw to have my $12,000 back.


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## super3 (Aug 22, 2010)

hiluxxulih said:


> I wonder why someone hasnt made brass filler to put a 12mm piston in a 10mm saw .




Rod is too small.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

I think it needs a P&C. Pics are uploading to Photobucket now. I'll post as soon as they're done.

If it needs a P&C, it will be my first run through a rebuild. I could use a parts list of what I'm going to need.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

These pictures reflect how I got the saw other than I took the 28" bar and chain off.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)




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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)




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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

The pieces of carbon are from when I took the muffler housing off and didn't care the crap got in there because I already saw what the piston looked like. Tried to snap a picture of the cylinder, but couldn't get it with the dying light outside and the garage light, even a flashlight were no help.

Straight gassed? I'm wondering if the guy I bought it from let someone borrow it who jacked it up because he said he had it for 6 years and never had problems with it. 

Either way, what should my parts to buy list going to look like?


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## Outlaw5.0 (Aug 23, 2010)

Well it needs a piston at the minimum.


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## 1steve (Aug 23, 2010)

thanks for pics........
yep P&C 
gasket set, seals
impulse line
fuel line and filter
carb kit
be good start....check bearings...........nice project well worth the effort


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## striperswaper (Aug 23, 2010)

that is a nasty looking piston, but you still got a reasonable deal, doubtful at best the jug can be cleaned up. Looks like its hello Bailey's time...
keep posting


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## 034avsuper (Aug 23, 2010)

Good deal, deffinately worth putting some money into. Keep us posted


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm pretty sure I'm going to need help along the way, but we'll see. I have the service manual. I do alright with one of those with my Jeep. Good thing I don't need this thing earn a living right now.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

1steve said:


> thanks for pics........
> yep P&C
> gasket set, seals
> impulse line
> ...



OEM is [email protected]#!??? Cripes, I see complete saws in working condition go for less than that.

Having an 066 BB, is there any reason to get the BB kit for the 044 or just stick with the 50mm P&C?

Is there any need to split the cases or should I do that as a precaution and replace that gasket as well?


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## 1steve (Aug 23, 2010)

baileys BB about $130 P&C????


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## Brian13 (Aug 23, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> OEM is [email protected]#!??? Cripes, I see complete saws in working condition go for less than that.
> 
> Having an 066 BB, is there any reason to get the BB kit for the 044 or just stick with the 50mm P&C?
> 
> Is there any need to split the cases or should I do that as a precaution and replace that gasket as well?



If you cant clean the cylinder up and you are going after market you might as well go for the BB. But if you want to stay stock, you can usually find a used cylinder on ebay for pretty cheap.


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## 1steve (Aug 23, 2010)

if it has a 12mm pin


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## mdavlee (Aug 23, 2010)

If you're going to go aftermarket get the big bore. If you want to stay with oem and do a little bit of work on the bolt holes and things you can use a 460 topend.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

1steve said:


> baileys BB about $130 P&C????



So, you're saying I should get the big bore


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## 1steve (Aug 23, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> If you're going to go aftermarket get the big bore. If you want to stay with oem and do a little bit of work on the bolt holes and things you can use a 460 topend.



just like he said very well


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

Can you dontge same with an 046 top end? Was there ever a decomp valve on the 440 or will I need new plastics with a 460 top end?


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## mdavlee (Aug 23, 2010)

Some of the 440 had decomps. I guess yours is an early 12mm. The 460 topend does take some trimming and slotting of the bolt holes. If you don't want to go to that trouble the big bore will be a straight bolt on deal with the same displacement as the 460 anyway.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 23, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Some of the 440 had decomps. I guess yours is an early 12mm. The 460 topend does take some trimming and slotting of the bolt holes. If you don't want to go to that trouble the big bore will be a straight bolt on deal with the same displacement as the 460 anyway.



I'll probably just do the big bore and maybe get crazy and give porting a shot at some point. I'm reading that porting is what really makes the big bore shine.

Age? I don't know. 044 with the serial number starting 131...I can get the full number tomorrow.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Who wants to help me split the cases? I don't have the tools to do it or the shop to fabricate my own tools.


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## Bounty Hunter (Aug 24, 2010)

Nice Score Brother! We loooooooooooooooove the 044/440s!

Why do you want to split the cases? Bad Bearings? Pressure leak?

Here's what we did, if you have to go that deep...http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=132792

If it's just the top end, For the best scream'in saw on the cheap: Bailey's BB kit, piston ring compressor, and a muffler mod!


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Bounty Hunter said:


> Nice Score Brother! We loooooooooooooooove the 044/440s!
> 
> Why do you want to split the cases? Bad Bearings? Pressure leak?
> 
> ...



So I shouldn't need to replace the crankcase gasket? I haven't run it at all with the piston looking like that. It doesn't seem to be leaking anything. With the guy having used the saw as much as he did, I doubt it was straight gassed unless he let someone borrow it, which I don't think that was the case either. I'm expecting a leak somewhere and it ran lean.

Here's my shopping list at Bailey's:
BB Kit
Gasket Set
Carb kit - is this the correct kit (http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=CRB%20K10%20HD)? Any reason why this saw wouldn't have a Walbro carb?
Fuel line
Fuel filter
Impulse hose
HD air filter
10 pack of e-clips

The cylinder has the opening for the decomp button. I have an 026 Pro with a decomp button and an 066 BB without. Recommendations on using the decomp button or should I just plug it? It's on $4.05 more for the button vs plugging it.


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## fatjoe (Aug 24, 2010)

The only problem you might have is a bearing problem you can`t see.Were you able to get a good feel of the crank bearings?I found taking the coil, flywheel and clutch off really helps to get a feel of the bearings.How smooth and noisy they may or may not be.If you pop the oil seals out, you can see them a bit better also.I saw they were on your list, so I assume your gonna replace them too.There were a couple offers to help split a case on another thread.I would offer, but am very new and green about it myself.I`ve only done three case splits.I guess thats why I don`t think it`s as simple as some of the other members.It sure would be a nice start to start out with new bearings, although you may be fine with the ones you have. Good luck.


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## Bounty Hunter (Aug 24, 2010)

Even though the saw looks "high milage" it may not be over the hill yet...we have several 044s that have over 1000 hrs...one that had close to 3000 before its last rebuild...and that one didn't need bearings or seals. 

Do you have a vacuum tester? There's great threads on testing...search the info if you are not familiar with the procedure. If the bearings and seals are good, your shoping list is OK except gassket kit you won't need, and I would get the piston ring compssor if don't have one.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> The only problem you might have is a bearing problem you can`t see.Were you able to get a good feel of the crank bearings?I found taking the coil, flywheel and clutch off really helps to get a feel of the bearings.How smooth and noisy they may or may not be.If you pop the oil seals out, you can see them a bit better also.I saw they were on your list, so I assume your gonna replace them too.There were a couple offers to help split a case on another thread.I would offer, but am very new and green about it myself.I`ve only done three case splits.I guess thats why I don`t think it`s as simple as some of the other members.It sure would be a nice start to start out with new bearings, although you may be fine with the ones you have. Good luck.



When I pull the starter, it seems smooth. I'll tear it apart farther and see how it feels/sounds. I don't think splitting the cases sounds that complicated, I just don't have the tools to do it or the tools to make the tool.



Bounty Hunter said:


> Even though the saw looks "high milage" it may not be over the hill yet...we have several 044s that have over 1000 hrs...one that had close to 3000 before its last rebuild...and that one didn't need bearings or seals.
> 
> Do you have a vacuum tester? There's great threads on testing...search the info if you are not familiar with the procedure. If the bearings and seals are good, your shoping list is OK except gassket kit you won't need, and I would get the piston ring compssor if don't have one.



I don't have a vacuum tester or compression tester. It would be great if someone was local that had them. Now that I have an 026 Pro, 044, and 066, I don't know if I'll need another saw for a long time. If I was buying and selling saws on a regular basis, I could justify the expense, but do I need it for the couple saws I have? Maybe it goes on my list for Christmas. Maybe I can get a tach that way, too.  

Piston ring clamps added, I knew there was something I was forgetting. It was on my list in my head, that's why I did the double check by posting.

What is the inspection criteria for the seals to know if I need to replace them?


Plug the decomp opening or use the valve? I'll need to cut the plastic to make room or buy plastics with the opening if I get the button.


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## Brian13 (Aug 24, 2010)

Even if you dont plan on buying and selling saw, if you plan on your own maintenance and troubleshooting the compression tester and vac gauge are good tools to have around. On top of that it is a good idea to check your work with a vac gauge after a rebuild. They are pretty cheap insurance for diagnosing problems before they are problems. Just my .02.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Even if you dont plan on buying and selling saw, if you plan on your own maintenance and troubleshooting the compression tester and vac gauge are good tools to have around. On top of that it is a good idea to check your work with a vac gauge after a rebuild. They are pretty cheap insurance for diagnosing problems before they are problems. Just my .02.



Sold.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Any links or product numbers for the vacuum gauge?

I see this, but there's no description or picture or anything:
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=ECP+91024&catID=


How often should the air filter be replaced? Or can they be washed and cleaned indefinitely?


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## longbar (Aug 24, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Any links or product numbers for the vacuum gauge?
> 
> I see this, but there's no description or picture or anything:
> http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=ECP+91024&catID=
> ...



This is a great vac guage: http://www.tooltopia.com/mityvac-mv8500.aspx


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

longbar said:


> This is a great vac guage: http://www.tooltopia.com/mityvac-mv8500.aspx



Can you use that as a compression gauge?


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## Brian13 (Aug 24, 2010)

That one should do a pressure test, but not compression. There is this one at Baileys, http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=G+320HD&catID=233. Or you can go to a Harbor Freight or even Ebay. It just has to have the schrader valve.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

I ordered a compression tester with my stuff from Bailey's and um hyping to order the Mityvac kit. A local NAPA place has it for $70. I might just grab it there for the $15 more and support a local business.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> That one should do a pressure test, but not compression. There is this one at Baileys, http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=G+320HD&catID=233. Or you can go to a Harbor Freight or even Ebay. It just has to have the schrader valve.



That's the one I ordered.

Here's my shopping list...

CARB KIT WALBRO HD 044/046/440/441/365/372
BLACK FUEL FILTER FOR STIHL
FUEL LINE 044 046 MS 341 361 440 460
IMPULSE HOSE FOR STIHL 044 046 MS440 MS460
COMPRESSION RELEASE FOR STIHL (BLACK KNOB)
CYLINDER ASSM (52MM) 044 MS 440 NiSi BIG BORE
PISTON RING CLAMP KIT
COMPRESSION TESTER
AIR FILTER (HD) 044 046 064 066 084 088 441

I'm going to pick up the Mityvac vacuum test at some point. I obviously won't need that until I get the saw rebuilt.

I'm going to work on pulling it all apart tomorrow, I hope. I had a bunch of split wood I wanted to stack tonight before the rain started this evening.






I need to look for some replacement plastics for the decomp button...off to eBay after giving the baby a bath.


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## Brian13 (Aug 24, 2010)

Have fun with the rebuild and post pictures. My 044 had been the most fun to rebuild so far. They seem to come apart and go together pretty easy. Are you goint to replace the seals too?


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Have fun with the rebuild and post pictures. My 044 had been the most fun to rebuild so far. They seem to come apart and go together pretty easy. Are you goint to replace the seals too?



I thought the suggestions were saying I didn't need to replace the crankcase gasket, so I removed that item and the seals were in that kit. I'll have to see if I can get those added on before the order ships tomorrow.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

The service manual has a Stihl puller tool for the seals. Recommendations on how to pull them without the tool? I'll try a search here/Google.


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## Brian13 (Aug 24, 2010)

Crank case gasket should be good. A lot of people replace seals when rebuilding just to know they are good. If you dont have the saw apart yet, you can seal it off and do a pressure test at about 5 psi or so and check the seals to see if they are leaking. If one is bad its usually the clutch side first.


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## oscar4883 (Aug 24, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lisl...Z360245095552QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

May need to be slightly modified. I have one I got after seeing it here and it works pretty good.


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## Brian13 (Aug 24, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> The service manual has a Stihl puller tool for the seals. Recommendations on how to pull them without the tool? I'll try a search here/Google.



If you do a search here you can find a lot of different pullers people have used. I used paint keys and a two bolt puller. A variation of a setup I saw here. This may help. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=115857&highlight=seal+puller


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## USMC0802 (Aug 24, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Crank case gasket should be good. A lot of people replace seals when rebuilding just to know they are good. If you dont have the saw apart yet, you can seal it off and do a pressure test at about 5 psi or so and check the seals to see if they are leaking. If one is bad its usually the clutch side first.



I guess I'll be picking up that vacuum/pressure gauge tomorrow...what are you using to seal the exhaust and intake ports on the cylinder before pumping pressure or creating a vacuum to test?


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## Brian13 (Aug 25, 2010)

There are a couple of differnt threads on how to set it up. I use a piece of steal bar cut to size and holes drilled for muffler bolts and carb bolts. I glued two layers of bycycle tube to one side to creat the seal. I removed the muffler and carb, bolted the one for the muffler on. For the intake boot I used the same idea for the muffler with a couple small blocks of wood and used the air filter bolt to holt it tight. And then hooked up the vac gauge to the impulse tube. Hope that makes sense.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 25, 2010)

My concern with testing before the rebuild is I really think the cause of the problem and engine failure is due to a leak that caused it to run lean. I ordered new seals from Bailey's, so I'll just replace then a d then test after the rebuild.


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## Brian13 (Aug 25, 2010)

As long as your air tight at the end your good to go. Good luck with the rebuild. Hope all goes smooth.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 25, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> As long as your air tight at the end your good to go. Good luck with the rebuild. Hope all goes smooth.



I bought the vacuum kit, so I can do the test, but I'm not sure how I'll know whether it's the impulse tube, seals, or otherwise where the leak is coming from. How do you located and identify the leak if one or more are present?


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## USMC0802 (Aug 25, 2010)

Now that I placed my order and started digging into the service manual looking at some things, I'm wondering if the intake manifold might be a suspect for the leak. It's like $34 from the local shop. I guess I can do my vacuum test and see if it holds before the rebuild and if it does, assume it's good. If it doesn't hold a seal, should I replace that as well, or should I be able to see any cracks, etc when I look it over?


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## USMC0802 (Aug 25, 2010)

Found this step by step process for vacuum and pressure testing: http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=42768

Found Brad's video on seal removal and installation and vacuum/pressure testing: http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=112928


Looks easy.


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## Brian13 (Aug 25, 2010)

The intake boot is a common place for air leaks. Finding the leak is pretty easy. I use my air compressor set to real low psi 5-7psi. You should be able hear it leak and then spray soapy water to confirm. Biggest thing with the seals is to make sue it is straight when you start it.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 25, 2010)

Took a few more parts off and did a little cleaning. Not sure what I'm looking for to determine if the carb needs rebuilt or not.

I think I've read about people sending the plastics through the dishwasher to clean them. Does that work well?


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## USMC0802 (Aug 25, 2010)

Serial number is 131850106...any ideas on production year?


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## fatjoe (Aug 26, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Took a few more parts off and did a little cleaning. Not sure what I'm looking for to determine if the carb needs rebuilt or not.
> 
> I think I've read about people sending the plastics through the dishwasher to clean them. Does that work well?



I wouldn`t suggest the dishwasher thing.I did it with our new washer(1 year old), and got crud all over, and it did smell of gas for about a day.Wife was a little upset.Put the plastics in a 5 gallon bucket with degreaser and dish soap.I bought one of those dish brushes with a long handle, scrub away.There are some good posts for wet sanding and clearcoating the plastics.Mcguires also makes a product that bring plastics back to life too.As far as the carb goes, I guess it wouldn`t hurt to rebuild it.I know on stihls without the carb limiters, you can turn the H and L out one complete turn from seating them.That should get you started.Then you either need to fine tune it yourself or go to a dealer.There is a good post for carb adjustment here also.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 26, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> I wouldn`t suggest the dishwasher thing.I did it with our new washer(1 year old), and got crud all over, and it did smell of gas for about a day.Wife was a little upset.Put the plastics in a 5 gallon bucket with degreaser and dish soap.I bought one of those dish brushes with a long handle, scrub away.There are some good posts for wet sanding and clearcoating the plastics.Mcguires also makes a product that bring plastics back to life too.As far as the carb goes, I guess it wouldn`t hurt to rebuild it.I know on stihls without the carb limiters, you can turn the H and L out one complete turn from seating them.That should get you started.Then you either need to fine tune it yourself or go to a dealer.There is a good post for carb adjustment here also.



That's funny about the dishwasher. Thanks for the heads up. I'm not interested in dressing up the plastics I have as there is a hole in the shroud and one of the corners is pretty banged up on the air filter cover. Maybe I'll call the dealer and have them give me a price on plastics.


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## Tzed250 (Aug 26, 2010)

.


Real good chance that saw has a Zama carb on it. My 044 is like yours and it has a Zama carb. 


.


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## Brian13 (Aug 26, 2010)

For the vac test, this is what I used to seal the saw up. The piece on the left goes on the exhaust port. The bolts that hold the muffler on will hold the metal piece nice and tight. The one on the right is for the intake boot. It slide in between the carb studs, then with a couple of small blocks you can use the bolt that the air filter sits on and holds down the carb to seal off the intake. Then the impulse line is free to hook the vac gauge too. All I did to make those was cut the metal pieces to size drill holes and glue two layers of bike tubes to it. Not the prettiest, but it works.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 26, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> Real good chance that saw has a Zama carb on it. My 044 is like yours and it has a Zama carb.
> ...



It's a Walbro.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 26, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> For the vac test, this is what I used to seal the saw up. The piece on the left goes on the exhaust port. The bolts that hold the muffler on will hold the metal piece nice and tight. The one on the right is for the intake boot. It slide in between the carb studs, then with a couple of small blocks you can use the bolt that the air filter sits on and holds down the carb to seal off the intake. Then the impulse line is free to hook the vac gauge too. All I did to make those was cut the metal pieces to size drill holes and glue two layers of bike tubes to it. Not the prettiest, but it works.



I'll have to see what I can come up with for some metal to cut/drill. Think wood would work?


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## Brian13 (Aug 26, 2010)

I dont see why wood wouldnt work. As long as its nice and flat and you have something like rubber to seal it off. I you have problems with it PM me. I still have a little bit of the bar I used to make those.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 26, 2010)

I'll see what my brother inlaw can come up with after work. Je said he thinks he has sheet metal I can work with.


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## oscar4883 (Aug 26, 2010)

You can also put some inner tube behind the muffler back o block off the exhaust. Also put some over the carb studs and then slide the metal ring that goes around the intake manifold over the studs. Slip some small pipe sections or slide a bunch of nuts on to take up some of the distance to the threads on the carb studs.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 27, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> You can also put some inner tube behind the muffler back o block off the exhaust.* Also put some over the carb studs and then slide the metal ring that goes around the intake manifold over the studs. Slip some small pipe sections or slide a bunch of nuts on to take up some of the distance to the threads on the carb studs.*



I'm going to try this. I have a good seal at the exhaust port, but the seal at the intake is suspect. I was using a 1"x1" tire patch behind a piece of sheet metal and I think the metal is too flexible once the nuts are tightened down that it bows in the middle and doesn't seal.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 27, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> I'm going to try this. I have a good seal at the exhaust port, but the seal at the intake is suspect. I was using a 1"x1" tire patch behind a piece of sheet metal and I think the metal is too flexible once the nuts are tightened down that it bows in the middle and doesn't seal.



Time to get the soapy water out. Not sure if it's my seals or what. I tried the inner tube over the opening of the intake clamped down with that ring and it ballooned out with pressure and sucked in a bit with vacuum, but I couldn't pump the thing fast enough to hold a vacuum. It would slowly loose pressure.

I'm hoping it's not the intake elbow - that's the only part I haven't ordered.

Other than spraying the soapy water to find out where the bubbles are, after that, is there any reason not to tear this thing apart the rest of the way?


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## Brian13 (Aug 27, 2010)

After you find the leak you should be ready to take it apart. Did you try listening for the air leak, if you can hear a hiss that should narrow your search down.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 27, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> After you find the leak you should be ready to take it apart. Did you try listening for the air leak, if you can hear a hiss that should narrow your search down.



First attempt at testing I could hear it from where I was trying to seal the intake. Couldn't hear anything the second time using the rubber.

I'm using the Mityvac kit with a section of the clear tubing the kit comes with and a nozzle that necks down to a size I could insert into the impulse tube.

I'll have to spray it with some soapy water and see what I find.

I tried to pressure test the carb as well and it failed to hold pressure, but I read the tests are more accurate when they've been dunked or submerged.

I doubt I'll get to it tomorrow. We're having a pool party followed by a fire outside and I'm doing some cutting on Sunday, at least that's the plan for Sunday.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 30, 2010)

Holds pressure, but slowly leaks off vacuum.


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## Brian13 (Aug 30, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Holds pressure, but slowly leaks off vacuum.



Carb or saw?


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## USMC0802 (Aug 30, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Carb or saw?



Saw...I'm already planning on rebuilding the carb. I was trying to figure out if the seals need to be replaced.


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## Brian13 (Aug 30, 2010)

I would pressurize the case, and spray the seals and look for bubbles. I believe there is an acceptable loss of vac over a certain amount of time but I dont remember what it was. It wasnt much if any. I know when I did my vac test getting the end of the vac gauge to seal took perfect placement, I think I ended up holding it in place.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 30, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I would pressurize the case, and spray the seals and look for bubbles. I believe there is an acceptable loss of vac over a certain amount of time but I dont remember what it was. It wasnt much if any. I know when I did my vac test getting the end of the vac gauge to seal took perfect placement, I think I ended up holding it in place.



Guess I need to get my hands on a flywheel puller. I feel like an idiot, but I'm having a hell of a time just getting the e-clip off. I tried a couple different sized screwdrivers and can't seem to pry it off.


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## Brian13 (Aug 30, 2010)

If one screw driver wont work use two small one, and pry up and slightly away for each other. Seems to work for me, or a small set of needle nose pliers with a 45* bend also works for me.


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## oscar4883 (Aug 30, 2010)

If they are really stuck I use two Stihl tuning screwdrivers. That way I am less likely to destroy it. For pressure/vac testing I have a simple set-up. Brass fittings on the ends of a coupler. One end is sized to fit the hoses of my pressures guauge and my vac gauge. The other is sized to fit the impulse hose end. 

I usually test twice on a rebuild. Once before I have the handle assembly on, and once after. When I test before the handle is attatched I use some Gorilla duct tape over the end of the intake manifold, and some of the clear tubing your dealer sells in place of the impulse line. I can get some pics tomorrow if you would like.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 30, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> If they are really stuck I use two Stihl tuning screwdrivers. That way I am less likely to destroy it. For pressure/vac testing I have a simple set-up. Brass fittings on the ends of a coupler. One end is sized to fit the hoses of my pressures guauge and my vac gauge. The other is sized to fit the impulse hose end.
> 
> I usually test twice on a rebuild. Once before I have the handle assembly on, and once after. When I test before the handle is attatched I use some Gorilla duct tape over the end of the intake manifold, and some of the clear tubing your dealer sells in place of the impulse line. I can get some pics tomorrow if you would like.



I have a rubber and sheet metal behind the muffler housing on the exhaust side and a piece of inner tube held down by the outside carb washer. I put two small washers and then spacers on the mounting studs and then tightened it down with two nuts. It's holding pressure but leaking on the vacuum. I'll have to work on that e-clip to get to the seals on the clutch side and I haven't figured out where to get a flywheel puller yet. The part number listed in the service manual isn't coming up on a price sheet I have from July 2010.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 30, 2010)

The e-clip seems to sit recessed into the washer, I think that's the problem. I don't have anything to get enough pressure on it to get it to pop out of where it's sitting.

Found a British video on YouTube and it's definitely not that easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUbSIHMSSP8


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## Brian13 (Aug 30, 2010)

Here is a flywheel puller for you.
http://cgi.ebay.com/STIHL-FLYWHEEL-...043976633?pt=US_Chainsaws&hash=item53d44b17b9

The e-clip just takes some messing with. Just do it in a open area. That way if it flys off it will be easy to find.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 30, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Here is a flywheel puller for you.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/STIHL-FLYWHEEL-...043976633?pt=US_Chainsaws&hash=item53d44b17b9
> 
> The e-clip just takes some messing with. Just do it in a open area. That way if it flys off it will be easy to find.



Thanks, I'll see what I can get locally before having to wait 8-10 days for PayPal to clear and shipping. I'll probably end up ordering it tomorrow though as I doubt I'll be thrilled when I talk to the dealer.


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## Brian13 (Aug 30, 2010)

I have had pretty good luck and dont have to wait to long when dealing with ebay.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 31, 2010)

Bailey's order is out for delivery according to UPS. Parts from the dealer should be in today as well. I'll get some pictures of the P&C when I get home today.


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## USMC0802 (Aug 31, 2010)

Received the delivery from Bailey's and the parts from the dealer. Not sure if I'll get to do much with the saw tonight as the grandparents are in town to see my daughter. I ordered the flywheel puller from eBay. Not sure if the local shop had the right tool number when they looked it up as I was quoted around $67 for it. I spoke with their head mechanic and he described a method to remove the flywheel with a rubber mallet and screwdriver...


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## USMC0802 (Aug 31, 2010)

I found it interesting that the new piston was riding in the cylinder, but upside down, in the packaging. It looks like it rubbed a bit. Pics of the new P&C:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4170.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4173.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4175.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4174.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4182.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4183.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4184.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4185.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4186.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4189.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4190.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4191.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4194.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/jtkratzer/Stihl 044/DSCN4195.jpg

The kit did come with the plug for the decomp opening for those who were wondering. The girl I spoke to on the phone at Bailey's led me to believe it was not included and I would have to purchase it or the valve.


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## PA Plumber (Aug 31, 2010)

I have a 440 that needs at least a piston and rings. (ordered from Bailey's)

I did get a price on the piston from Stihl, but it shook me up a little!


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## USMC0802 (Sep 1, 2010)

After I figure out if/where the leak(s) are and I want to pull the cylinder off, what are you using to clean all the gunk off the crankcase/cylinder to keep it from falling in and around the crank and bearings?


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## Brian13 (Sep 1, 2010)

If it were me I would pull the fuel tank off the case, and remove the muffler. Just block the intake and exhaust ports and then use compressed air and a small brush to clean up around the cylinder. That will also allow you to clean under the tank. Alot of crap can build up there.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 1, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> If it were me I would pull the fuel tank off the case, and remove the muffler. Just block the intake and exhaust ports and then use compressed air and a small brush to clean up around the cylinder. That will also allow you to clean under the tank. Alot of crap can build up there.



Sounds good. I'll work on that until I get the flywheel puller and can check out the seals.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 3, 2010)

The service manual has a diagram of a Zama carb. Can I assume before taking my Walbro carb apart that they should be similar enough to follow the service manual? I've never rebuilt a carb, so I'd like to know if the manual I'm following will work or leave me with a bunch of small pieces and rubber parts on the table.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 3, 2010)

Carb is a Walbro HD-10A...Walbro's site has the 10B, but not A.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 3, 2010)

I normally seperate the tank and the case then put Gorilla duct tape over the intake and exhaust. A small piece of the old impulse with a broken off q-tip stuck into it is good for keeping junk out. Then spray the entire saw down with purple cleaner and scrup away. Gets it nice and clean. Don't worry about that coating on the piston being worn as it will wear off quickly once the saw is running.


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## Brian13 (Sep 3, 2010)

I didnt use a manual. So I would suggest using what you found for the Walbro and pay close attention to how it comes apart.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 3, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I didnt use a manual. So I would suggest using what you found for the Walbro and pay close attention to how it comes apart.



Yeah, one part I'm not remembering well is the order and orientation of the metering diaphragm. I know how the holes line up, those are idiot proof, but if you flip it over, it fits that way, too.

Does the gasket go against the cover or the body? And the diaphragm...one side has only a small disc on one side and other side has a bigger disc that looks like a 5 shot revolver cylinder. I know, my terminology is ridiculous - first time through this.

How is the diaphragm oriented and does the gasket go against the cover with the diaphragm against the body?

Walbro's site isn't working to give me an exploded view for the 10B.
http://wem.walbro.com/walbro/produc...m=HD-10B&GroupName=Chain Saw&FamilyName=STIHL


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## USMC0802 (Sep 3, 2010)

Think I got it...found the service manual for the carb:
http://wem.walbro.com/distributors/servicemanuals/HDAseries.pdf


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## Brian13 (Sep 3, 2010)

I would have to pull one apart to tell you. I dont take my carbs apart until I have replacement parts in front of me. Another consideration is setting the metering level. Check out this manual, should answer most of your questions and maybe a few you didnt know you had. For the diaphragm look to page 22.
http://wem.walbro.com/distributors/servicemanuals/ServiceManual.pdf


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## USMC0802 (Sep 3, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I would have to pull one apart to tell you. I dont take my carbs apart until I have replacement parts in front of me. Another consideration is setting the metering level. Check out this manual, should answer most of your questions and maybe a few you didnt know you had. For the diaphragm look to page 22.
> http://wem.walbro.com/distributors/servicemanuals/ServiceManual.pdf



Thanks for the link. I'm sure I'll learn quite a bit from that. I have it all back together the way the pictured in the link I posted above.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 4, 2010)

Took the tank handle off today and put the plastics and clutch cover and some other bits and pieces in some soap water. I'll have to dig around the forum for a thread on how to bring faded plastics back to life. I got these cheap from an MS440 since it has the decomp opening and the plastics that came with the saw were usable, but broken. There was a hole in the top shroud and a corner pushed in on the filter cover.

Gave the saw a bit of a wipe down and I'll get an air compressor on it, probably tomorrow.

Here are a couple pics from today.

Intake side of the piston:





















Here's the e-clip that's been a PIA. You can see how recessed it is. Yes, the scratches on the washer are from me trying to remove the e-clip. Not sure what the fibers are.


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## fatjoe (Sep 5, 2010)

Something has gotten behind the washer and pushed it out against the C Clip.Its causing the groove.You need to get that nylon or whatever that frayed stuff is out of the back of the washer.It wore a groove into the washer so the clip can`t come out.Clean all that stuff out, and the washer will push back so you can prey the clip out.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 5, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> Something has gotten behind the washer and pushed it out against the C Clip.Its causing the groove.You need to get that nylon or whatever that frayed stuff is out of the back of the washer.It wore a groove into the washer so the clip can`t come out.Clean all that stuff out, and the washer will push back so you can prey the clip out.



I'm wondering if it's fibers from contacting a set of chaps...I'll take a look this morning.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 5, 2010)

There doesn't seem to be much of a gap between the clutch drum and the washer. I don't see what would have caused the fit to be so tight to cause that kind of wear. I guess I could get the Dremel out with a cutoff wheel and take my time and avoid touching the crankshaft.


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## fatjoe (Sep 5, 2010)

Your gonna find a heck of a mess in there I would imagine.All those components should move in and out freely.They should not feel bound up.That nylon crap has everything bound up.You have to get that clip off.I would try and pry between the washer and the clutch drum with one hand and use needle nose plyers with the other and start pulling the fibers out.Every little bit should help.Keep working it back and forth till there is enough room to get the c_clip off.


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## fatjoe (Sep 5, 2010)

Also, make sure your chain brake isn`t engaged. Pull back on that.Sometimes it will be engaged and you don`t even know it.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 5, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> Your gonna find a heck of a mess in there I would imagine.All those components should move in and out freely.They should not feel bound up.That nylon crap has everything bound up.You have to get that clip off.I would try and pry between the washer and the clutch drum with one hand and use needle nose plyers with the other and start pulling the fibers out.Every little bit should help.Keep working it back and forth till there is enough room to get the c_clip off.



The rim sprocket moves in and out just fine. Just not the washer and e-clip.



fatjoe said:


> Also, make sure your chain brake isn`t engaged. Pull back on that.Sometimes it will be engaged and you don`t even know it.



Chain brake is off and clutch drum and all components spin freely.


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## PA Plumber (Sep 5, 2010)

Yep, that washer should slide toward the drum just enough to get the e-clip off.

Bring it by, I'll help you get that off today! 
It's probably only a couple of hour round trip. 
Might be just a teensy bit cheaper to get a new e-clip.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 5, 2010)

PA Plumber said:


> Yep, that washer should slide toward the drum just enough to get the e-clip off.
> 
> Bring it by, I'll help you get that off today!
> It's probably only a couple of hour round trip.
> Might be just a teensy bit cheaper to get a new e-clip.



I'm in Lancaster County. Where are you in Pa?


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## PA Plumber (Sep 5, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> I'm in Lancaster County. Where are you in Pa?



I'll send a pm.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 7, 2010)

Flywheel puller arrived. That will come off while watching the Phillies after I feed my daughter.


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## NUTNDUN (Sep 7, 2010)

Dontcha have that saw together yet? LOL Looks like you are making progress. I would get a new eclip and use the dremel to cut the old one off.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 7, 2010)

NUTNDUN said:


> Dontcha have that saw together yet? LOL Looks like you are making progress. I would get a new eclip and use the dremel to cut the old one off.



Nope. I don't even have it all apart yet. :deadhorse:


I can't believe how tight the flywheel is on there. Should it be that difficult to remove with the puller? I've got the 13mm nut off, the puller threaded into the flywheel, and the thrust bolt threaded into the puller and I have a socket on the thrust bolt and an adjustable wrench on the puller and it feels like it won't budge.

Suggestions?


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## Brian13 (Sep 7, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Nope. I don't even have it all apart yet. :deadhorse:
> 
> 
> I can't believe how tight the flywheel is on there. Should it be that difficult to remove with the puller? I've got the 13mm nut off, the puller threaded into the flywheel, and the thrust bolt threaded into the puller and I have a socket on the thrust bolt and an adjustable wrench on the puller and it feels like it won't budge.
> ...



Mine was like that as well. I think that keeps the key from being sheared. I used a breaker bar to pop mine off. Just make sure you have it threaded all the way into the flywheel.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 7, 2010)

It's off, had to hit it with the purse (just kidding)


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## 1steve (Sep 7, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> It's off, had to hit it with the purse (just kidding)



lmao glad you got it and glad you was kidding


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## USMC0802 (Sep 7, 2010)

I'll get the Dremel out and work on that e-clip tomorrow. Clutch and chain brake off tomorrow, a bit of clean up, and then check the oil seals. Give the entire case a good cleaning and then it's time to reassemble with the new parts.

Just about any degreaser alright to use with soapy water to clean up the case?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 7, 2010)

Flywheel off and a little wipe down.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Surgery was successful. The e-clip and washer will certainly need to be replace as they were amputated from the saw tonight. Clutch drum looks to be in good shape. There were some sort of fibers wrapped around the outside edge of the needle cage and crankshaft.

I'll post pictures tomorrow.

When replacing the rim sprocket, should I go with 7 or 8 tooth? I'm thinking 7 as I don't need race saw speed, but I also have the 066 with a 7 pin for anything that I would want to run a 28-32" through. Would 8 pin work well for 25-28" bars on the 044 or should I just stick with the 7?

Also, can someone confirm in the IPL that I need the following part numbers for the e-clip, washer, needle cage, and rim sprocket:
9460 624 0801 - e-clip
9512 933 2380 - needle cage
0000 642 1223 - 7T 3/8" rim sprocket
0000 958 1032 - washer

Or does 1128 007 1000 - rim sprocket kit give me the sprocket, clutch drum, washer, and e-clip and I would just need to order the needle cage as well?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Guess I'm going to need to need a longer ratchet to remove the clutch. I'm hoping I didn't d|ck up the bearings. I was using the plastic piston stop that came with the piston rings clamp kit from Bailey's and a 19mm socket on the clutch. I was putting pressure on it and it just felt like it broke loose and was going to come right off. Nope. And now the crank only turns just shy of 1 complete turn in either direction and the clutch is still on there.

I'll look at it more tomorrow. Enough for tonight.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Any thoughts on the crank not going all the way around?


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## Brian13 (Sep 9, 2010)

Did you break off any of your piston stop? Get some rope, like pull cord rope and stuff it into the cylinder enough so that it stops the piston. Take the clutch off(righty loosy used revers threads) then take the cylinder off and you will be able to tell what is wrong. My guess would be that a piece of the stop got wedged in somewhere.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 9, 2010)

Busted piston stop is what I was thinking too. Use the rope trick for a piston stop and see if you can get the clutch off. Hits the threads with some PB Blaster or something for as long as you can before you give it a go. If you can not get the piston to come up to the top of its stroke in order to hit the piston stop you may have to pull the cylinder. If you do,put some tape over the exhaust/intake and hit the powerhead with some purple cleaner.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 9, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Any thoughts on the crank not going all the way around?



A piece of the piston stop broke off and is still in the cylinder? Or something bad happened in the case?

Ooops. Just a little late...

Poge


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. That's what I'm trying to figure out. It was going all the way around freely until trying to get the clutch off. I'm assuming it's part of the piston stop. I'm not worried if the piston or cylinder get a little jacked up as they're getting replaced as it is. I care if the bearings or something happened with the rod, crank, or bearings. I'll try the rope trick first and if that doesn't work, I'll get the case cleaned up and get the cylinder off. I wanted to leave it on to check the oil seals, so we'll see.


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## fatjoe (Sep 9, 2010)

I broke my black plastic piston stop.You should be able to hear it rattling around in the cylinder, or see it through the spark plug hole.


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## fatjoe (Sep 9, 2010)

When taking off the clutch, I found that turning the saw on its side(clutch facing up), and putting it in a vice really helps.I line the vice with an old fleece jacket I have.You have to be careful not to reef down on it so it cracks the case.Also need to make sure there is no metal on metal.With the case in the vise, it makes it much easier.Plus the socket isn`t slipping off while your trying to hold the case steady.I hade a really hard time with clutches until I started puting them in the vice.Holding the case steady is half the battle.I took a photo If it helps.If you make sure the case is secure and your socket secure, you can use steady pressure to the right and it will come off.You can use a piece of 1" pipe to put the ratchet handle in for leverage. Apply steady force to the right and it should come off.The hardest thing is keeping the socket on the clutch.Maybe you already do this, if not, here`s an 026 I`m working on.Also, here are the stops I use.You can see one one of my piston stops broke off too.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

I picked up some PB Blaster and purple cleaner today. I might get some time to work on the clutch tonight. I'm going to see if my dad or FIL have a section of pipe I can use for more leverage.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> When replacing the rim sprocket, should I go with 7 or 8 tooth? I'm thinking 7 as I don't need race saw speed, but I also have the 066 with a 7 pin for anything that I would want to run a 28-32" through. Would 8 pin work well for 25-28" bars on the 044 or should I just stick with the 7?
> 
> Also, can someone confirm in the IPL that I need the following part numbers for the e-clip, washer, needle cage, and rim sprocket:
> 9460 624 0801 - e-clip
> ...



Do these part numbers look right?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Clutch is off along with the worm gear and the rest of the loose bits and pieces behind the clutch. I have exams and certifications for work to do this evening, I'm hoping to get to the chain brake and the rest of the odds and ends and then seal it up and spray it down.

There were a couple pieces of the piston stop in the cylinder along with a perfectly spherical shaped chunk of saw dust/oil/crud that I think came out of there when I was shaking the powerhead trying to get everything out.

Now, to find the poster who suggested PB Blaster. You sir, deserve rep. That stuff is amazing, or I just really loosened it and gave up a bit early last night.

Thanks again everyone for all of your help.


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## NUTNDUN (Sep 9, 2010)

PB Blaster is good stuff. I used it a lot on the tractors for rusted bolts. Some take a couple of soakings but it does works it's way in eventually. Glad to hear you got her apart now.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Oil seal on the clutch side won't hold pressure. Bummer. Still safe to hose the case down to clean it up a bit?


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## Brian13 (Sep 9, 2010)

I personally dont recommend using water to clean a saw. Its possible to get water in the bearings. I use compressed air, brush, pic, and a rag to clean saws.And try not to blow into seals. Just my .02. Looks like you are moving right along. Keep it up.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 9, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I personally dont recommend using water to clean a saw. Its possible to get water in the bearings. I use compressed air, brush, pic, and a rag to clean saws.And try not to blow into seals. Just my .02. Looks like you are moving right along. Keep it up.



I understand your concern about using water. I just hit it with purple cleaner and the gentle setting on the hose trying not to get the seals, etc., with a lot of direct water. Plus with the cylinder coming off and seals coming out the bearings will have more than enough of a chance to get cleaned and re-lubed. AHHH, the wonders of PB Blaster!


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

I hosed it, lighty, and not directly on the seals. I figure the seals are getting replaced and at this point I'm half expecting to need to split the cases. Everything that could need to be replaced has needed it so far. Why would I get a break on the bearings?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Cylinder is off. Pictures will be up eventually. My wife is using the computer for a but for a baby picture book project. Cylinder seems pretty rough and the piston is horrendous. Knowing the oil seals are no good, is it safe to assume this was the cause and it ran lean?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 9, 2010)

Piston snap rings are out. However, I don't have the assembly drift used in the manual. What are you guys using to remove the piston pin?

Here are some pictures where it's at now:











Everything good here with how the two halves are lined up??





Brutal.















Heinous:






Some of the paint in the crankcase, specifically where the two halves meet at the gasket, seems to be bubbling a little. Leave it or try to scrape it out?


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## NUTNDUN (Sep 10, 2010)

If you are not worried about repainting the saw I would use a scotchbrite pad or some finer grit sand paper and try to remove the bubbling paint and see if you can find a white to match and touch it up. If you want to repaint it I have a sandblaster or we can put it in an electrolysis tank.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

NUTNDUN said:


> If you are not worried about repainting the saw I would use a scotchbrite pad or some finer grit sand paper and try to remove the bubbling paint and see if you can find a white to match and touch it up. If you want to repaint it I have a sandblaster or we can put it in an electrolysis tank.



I'd have to split the case halves to be able to get to the paint bubbling. I think the bearings are alright, but if I need to split them, I guess why not paint it.


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## NUTNDUN (Sep 10, 2010)

Well I guess decide what you want to do or decide if you need to split the cases and tomorrow bring it with and when we bring the first load home we can hit it with the sandblaster. I have fine grit blasting media and what doesn't need to be touched we can tape up.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Do you have tools to split the cases?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Bearings are good says the Stihl tech.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

So, just a quick sanity check. I have all the replacement parts ordered and most are in my possession. A few things (inner side plate and screws) won't be here until Tuesday, but the bearings are good, case is clean, I just need to get the wrist pin off to remove the piston. Oil seals need pulled and replaced. After that, I'm good to start reassembly, right?


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## Brian13 (Sep 10, 2010)

Sounds like you are good to go. For the piston pin, once the clips are out I just use what ever I have that has a smooth surface to push the pin. You just dont want to rough up the pin. It shouldnt be too hard to remove. And be very careful putting the seals back in, especially if you are not using a press. Make sure they start nice and even and go nice and slow. And if you have any concern about debris being in the case before you put the new seals in take some fresh fuel mix and slosh it around in the case to clean it out.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Sounds like you are good to go. For the piston pin, once the clips are out I just use what ever I have that has a smooth surface to push the pin. You just dont want to rough up the pin. It shouldnt be too hard to remove. And be very careful putting the seals back in, especially if you are not using a press. Make sure they start nice and even and go nice and slow. And if you have any concern about debris being in the case before you put the new seals in take some fresh fuel mix and slosh it around in the case to clean it out.



Piston is off. New P&C kit came with a new pin, but not a new needle cage, so I have to save that. I'm going to wash the case out with some fuel as I think there is a bit of the guts from the old P&C in there in the form of a fine silvery powder.

I'm going to wait until I pick up the Lisle shaft seal puller tomorrow to yank the seal out of the flywheel side. I'm going to get some bags and get things a little more organize for the rebuild to make sure I remember where everything goes. Shouldn't be too bad. I typically put the bolts back in their holes after removing whatever it was they were holding in place.


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## Brian13 (Sep 10, 2010)

The 044 is pretty straight forward. I had mine apart for a couple of weeks before I put it back together, and had no problems. While you have it apart might not be a bad idea to pull out the oiler and clean it out real well. They are kind of tricky to get back in, but as long as you pay attention to how it came out its not so bad. It may not even need cleaning, but it would suck to get it back together and find it is not oiling properly. Just my .02.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> The 044 is pretty straight forward. I had mine apart for a couple of weeks before I put it back together, and had no problems. While you have it apart might not be a bad idea to pull out the oiler and clean it out real well. They are kind of tricky to get back in, but as long as you pay attention to how it came out its not so bad. It may not even need cleaning, but it would suck to get it back together and find it is not oiling properly. Just my .02.



Already out and wiped down. I'm going to be grilling some steaks shortly and I'll look at it some more after I eat. All the parts that go together are in ziploc bags. I don't think I'll have problems putting it back together.

I put a little 50:1 mix in the crankcase and spun the crank around a bunch of times to slosh the mix around. Still a bit of the silvery stuff coating everything in there. Not sure how to clean it all out other than Q-tips.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 10, 2010)

More pics, more pics, more pics! (Especially if you're adding the thread link to your sig.)

So how much do you have into this project so far -- as in $$$? 

Poge


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> More pics, more pics, more pics! (Especially if you're adding the thread link to your sig.)
> 
> So how much do you have into this project so far -- as in $$$?
> 
> Poge



What else do you want pics of? The only thing new today is the piston is off the rod, oil pump is out, one of the seals is out, and I cleaned a bunch of crud off the flywheel.

After the saw, parts, and some tools, maybe $400...but there was a $70 Mityvac kit and $30 compression tester in there.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 10, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Not sure how to clean it all out other than Q-tips.



I've had good luck with kerosene and lots of air. And yeah, some guys will use water and a mild detergent as a final rinse -- and lots more air, then swish with mix to displace moisture, then lots more air.

You don't want those particles in there.

Poge


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 10, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> What else do you want pics of?



Right about now, how 'bout a couple nice ones of those steaks? I'm gettin' hungry!

Nice work, man. It's just cool to watch the details of these projects unfold -- sometimes right down to the seals gettin' pulled. We (or someone) will all hopefully learn something during the process.

Poge


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Right about now, how 'bout a couple nice ones of those steaks? I'm gettin' hungry!
> 
> Nice work, man. It's just cool to watch the details of these projects unfold -- sometimes right down to the seals gettin' pulled. We (or someone) will all hopefully learn something during the process.
> 
> Poge



I'm learning a lot. This is my first engine rebuild of any kind. Steaks...what steaks? I don't see any steaks left.

I haven't taken pictures of any of the actual procedures I'm doing, just as things unfold. The service manual is pretty decent at walking through the steps. The biggest thing is figuring out how to make things happen when you don't have the tools Stihl uses in the manual or the little tips/tricks like the rope since the plastic piston stops seem to break when removing the clutch. Stuff like that has been the difference maker.

I'm sure there will be more to learn as I eventually start working my way toward putting parts back on rather than taking them off.

I can't wait to pull the rope and hear this thing run the first time. I'll be happy that I was able to tear it down, almost to the bare cases, and then rebuild it and get it running, but that is a going to be at least a few days as this weekend is almost shot as I'm cutting tomorrow and we're doing a blue crab fest on Sunday in Maryland.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

$100 for the saw, 2 28" bars, a 32" bar, and 7 chains of each length.
$216.55 from Baileys
I'm guessing somewhere between $30-$50 in misc parts from two local dealers.

I'm not going to count the price of the tools I bought as I'll use them quite a bit more for other things as well. The saw will end up costing $350-$400 and will almost be a new saw top to bottom.

I'm happy with that considering I've seen quite a few 044s go for over $400 and they certainly aren't fresh rebuilds and I learned a lot along the way.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 10, 2010)

The way your case halves line up in the one pic is just fine. For cleaning out the case just prior to p/c install I like to hold the saw with the oil tank vertical and spray the inside with carb cleaner letting it run out the impulse barb. Rotate the crank a couple times and keep spraying til it is nice and clean. Hit the bearings with a little oil of some kind and spread it around. Make sure you check the squish and that your piston is in the right way and you should be good to go. Looking forward to seeing a video of this saw running. Do they show you the method of using a small length of string to get the manifold thru the tank, in the manual?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> The way your case halves line up in the one pic is just fine.



Sweet. Thanks.



oscar4883 said:


> For cleaning out the case just prior to p/c install I like to hold the saw with the oil tank vertical and spray the inside with carb cleaner letting it run out the impulse barb. Rotate the crank a couple times and keep spraying til it is nice and clean. Hit the bearings with a little oil of some kind and spread it around.



Sounds good. I have all of that stuff.



oscar4883 said:


> Make sure you check the squish and that your piston is in the right way and you should be good to go. Looking forward to seeing a video of this saw running.



I've read about squish on the site, but I have no idea how to measure it. Haven't seen a thread on how to come up with that number. I would appreciate some enlightenment.



oscar4883 said:


> Do they show you the method of using a small length of string to get the manifold thru the tank, in the manual?



????????? Forgive me, but I'm not sure what you're talking about here.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 10, 2010)

For squish get some electrical solder, like sold at radioshack, and cut some pieces about 3/8th or so long. Put them at 12-3-6-9 on the top of your piston. Hold them in place with a dab of grease. Make sure that they are at the piston edge so they will be sure to hit the squish band at the top of the cylinder. Then, without rings, slide the cylinder on and bolt it down like normal. Remove cylinder and measure solder. This measurement is you squish. .020 is probably perfect, but a little less or more is cool too. If you can run without a gasket thats great, if not soda/beer cans make great gasket material. 

By wrapping a piece of string around the intake manifold just behind the flange, you can pull the manifold through the tank easier. Just feed the string through and as you slide the tank and case together just pull the manifold in with the string.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 10, 2010)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=61178&highlight=string&page=4

Post 56 shows the string trick.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> For squish get some electrical solder, like sold at radioshack, and cut some pieces about 3/8th or so long. Put them at 12-3-6-9 on the top of your piston. Hold them in place with a dab of grease. Make sure that they are at the piston edge so they will be sure to hit the squish band at the top of the cylinder. Then, without rings, slide the cylinder on and bolt it down like normal. Remove cylinder and measure solder. This measurement is you squish. .020 is probably perfect, but a little less or more is cool too. If you can run without a gasket thats great, if not soda/beer cans make great gasket material.
> 
> By wrapping a piece of string around the intake manifold just behind the flange, you can pull the manifold through the tank easier. Just feed the string through and as you slide the tank and case together just pull the manifold in with the string.



I haven't used solder since high school. It's soft enough that it will compress/flatten a bit when the piston is at TDC?

Yes, the service manual uses the string method.

Learning has occurred.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=61178&highlight=string&page=4
> 
> Post 56 shows the string trick.



Until you asked about it, I hadn't gone on to the reassembly part of the manual. I was initially assuming it was like a lot of other things in the manual - reassembly is the reverse of disassembly.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 10, 2010)

Yup. The solder is very soft. I think the stuff I got from Radioshack measures slightly over 30 thou or so. The string method for manifold installation is a life saver.


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## Brian13 (Sep 10, 2010)

I have the service manual but never even looked through it. Never saw that string trick. I will have to remember that. Learn something new everyday.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Oil pump is good...quick test was to stick the end the oil flows out of in water and turn the gear and when bubbles come out, I'm guessing that means it's good.

I cleaned a bunch of crud off the flywheel with a brush and some purple cleaner, and a bit of dish soap.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I have the service manual but never even looked through it. Never saw that string trick. I will have to remember that. Learn something new everyday.



I preferred to use the manual since I had never done any kind of engine rebuilding like this before. I use a repair manual when working on Jeep. Usually saves me time and money (not breaking things when taking things apart or putting the new parts back in).

What is on my worm gear? Feels like melted plastic.





Clean clutch and other bits and pieces:


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## Brian13 (Sep 10, 2010)

I know what you mean. I should have used the manual but I just used the it probably goes back the same way it came apart method. As for the worm gear. Looks like it got hot. I would probably replace it.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 10, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I know what you mean. I should have used the manual but I just used the it probably goes back the same way it came apart method. As for the worm gear. Looks like it got hot. I would probably replace it.



I'm wondering what caused this to happen. I'm sure running lean heated things up a bit, but what would have caused the heat to get high enough for this to happen to the plastics around the clutch drum? It feels like it melted and was charred/burnt.


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## Brian13 (Sep 11, 2010)

I dont know if running it lean will cause enough heat there, but running it with the chain brake engaged will. Or I guess running lean as it was loosing power starting to slip on the drum. Either way the drum got pretty hot it looks like.


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## Zombiechopper (Sep 11, 2010)

crud can get packed in there and rub on the brake band or start to bind it up. If it pitchy pine pretty easy to get it smouldering. Or could be a bunch of other things but I've seen pine pitch do that


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## USMC0802 (Sep 11, 2010)

Picked up one of these today at CarQuest to pull the seal on the flywheel side. It needed some attention with a file to get the "hook" small enough to grab that small seal.





Not much progress today as I was cutting. I'm going to pick up some sandpaper tomorrow from my BIL to wet sand the plastics. Going to a crab feast in Maryland tomorrow and probably won't get done because of that.

Adding these three part numbers to the order on Monday to replace those charred looking chain brake covers and the worm gear:
1128 640 7110 worm
1128 021 1101 cover	
1128 021 1105 cover


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## oscar4883 (Sep 11, 2010)

I have an 044 apart on my bench as we speak. If you need any pics on the installation process, squish, etc., let me know and i can snap some.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 15, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> I have an 044 apart on my bench as we speak. If you need any pics on the installation process, squish, etc., let me know and i can snap some.



Thanks, pics of the squish process would probably be helpful. All the replacement parts I need to get started on assembly are in. Case received the final cleaning tonight and some air compressor love. I won't be able to get started on the assembly until next week as I go out of town tomorrow through Sunday.

I started reading about installing the snap rings to hold the wrist pin in since I don't have the Stihl tool described in the service manual. I'd like to read about getting the oil seals in place without the Stihl tool as well and then get the seals on, piston on the rod, check the squish, and finish up with the reassembly next week.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 16, 2010)

Sorry but I got mine back together already. Built an 044 with a 460 top on it and with the gasketless squish at .018 and plugged de-comp it was tough to pull. Built it for another climber and I had to go back in and add a soda can gasket to raise the squish. Thought it would be a little rough to start in a tree running gasketless. For the cir-clips get a carb tuning screwdriver and file a slight v-shaped notch in the blade. Slightly off center works well. I will get a pic of the set-up for checking squish later this afternoon for ya.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 16, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Sorry but I got mine back together already. Built an 044 with a 460 top on it and with the gasketless squish at .018 and plugged de-comp it was tough to pull. Built it for another climber and I had to go back in and add a soda can gasket to raise the squish. Thought it would be a little rough to start in a tree running gasketless. For the cir-clips get a carb tuning screwdriver and file a slight v-shaped notch in the blade. Slightly off center works well. I will get a pic of the set-up for checking squish later this afternoon for ya.



Thanks, I'll look for it later. I'm hoping to get this one back together within the next 2 weeks. I won't be able to touch it again until Monday after work, and I have an overnight trip to Pittsburgh for work next week, too.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 17, 2010)

Here is a pic of the basic set-up for squish and the notched file I use for circlip install. I hold the solder on with a dap of grease. Not the best pic but you get the idea.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 17, 2010)

*One More Tip on the Acid...*

Keep the main container capped. The vapors will create surface rust on anything in the proximity!

Poge


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## oscar4883 (Sep 25, 2010)

Just bumpin for a progress report.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 25, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Just bumpin for a progress report.



Been busy. Gone Thursday through Sunday, had training conferences two days this week, one was 4 hours away in Pittsburgh and I have 20 trees to cut before Oct 15th.

I picked up grease and a grease gun yesterday and I'll grab some solder to test the squish, maybe tomorrow.

I still need to get the oil seals installed. I need to do a search here to find tips on doing that without the Stihl tools. I really would like to make some progress on this, just other things have had priority.


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## oscar4883 (Sep 25, 2010)

Sonds like you have got your hands full. Keep us posted with your progress.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 25, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Sonds like you have got your hands full. Keep us posted with your progress.



If I get done cutting at a decent time tomorrow, I'll pick up the stuff to clean up the plastics and the solder on the way home.


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## Brian13 (Sep 25, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Been busy. Gone Thursday through Sunday, had training conferences two days this week, one was 4 hours away in Pittsburgh and I have 20 trees to cut before Oct 15th.
> 
> I picked up grease and a grease gun yesterday and I'll grab some solder to test the squish, maybe tomorrow.
> 
> I still need to get the oil seals installed. I need to do a search here to find tips on doing that without the Stihl tools. I really would like to make some progress on this, just other things have had priority.



The proper way to install the seals is a press. You can get a press cheap, but if you are not going to get one there is another way. But this way has the highest probability of error. You can take a socket that is the same diameter of the seal and carefully tap the socket until the seal is in place. You will need to be very careful getting it started because it is easy to get it started crooked. But with care seal can be installed. I have installed all my seals this way with no problem. Just go slow, NO RUSHING, and use firm but gentle taps with at hammer. I generally use a brass or deadblow hammer. I dont know if it helps or not but I also put a little bit of oil around race before installing. Good luck!


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## USMC0802 (Sep 25, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> The proper way to install the seals is a press. You can get a press cheap, but if you are not going to get one there is another way. But this way has the highest probability of error. You can take a socket that is the same diameter of the seal and carefully tap the socket until the seal is in place. You will need to be very careful getting it started because it is easy to get it started crooked. But with care seal can be installed. I have installed all my seals this way with no problem. Just go slow, NO RUSHING, and use firm but gentle taps with at hammer. I generally use a brass or deadblow hammer. I dont know if it helps or not but I also put a little bit of oil around race before installing. Good luck!



I was planning on using a socket to tap them in and lube them up with a smidge of bar oil. I have a small ball peen and a finishing hammer. One of those is probably a better bet than my 20 something ounce framing hammer. I'm going to grab the seals and my socket set and see what size I need to get in deep socket.


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## Brian13 (Sep 25, 2010)

I like to use a hammer that will cover the whole socket so that the pressure is applied evenly assuming I hit it square. As long as you take your time you shouldnt have any problems at all.


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## USMC0802 (Sep 25, 2010)

Which wrist pin? Left is OEM, right is the pin that came with the NWP kit. I'm assuming the OEM pin as it should be lighter. Thoughts?


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## USMC0802 (Sep 25, 2010)

22mm and 13mm sockets seem to be the right size to tap the seals in place.


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## Brian13 (Sep 25, 2010)

I would use the wrist pin that came with the kit. The oem might work fine, I dont know if there is any reason not to use the oem pin. I have just always used what came with the piston.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

Oil seals are in, wrist pin (one from the kit) slid right in after a few days in the freezer and some lube on it and the needle cage.

These snap rings are a PITA. Any suggestions other than the screwdriver with a groove filed into it? I forgot to grab an extra screw driver that size while I was out today.


EDIT: got them installed.

Ready to measure squish minus the caliper.


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## Brian13 (Oct 1, 2010)

I use small needle nose pliers, and try to keep a finger over the clip. For me the that is the biggest PIA of the whole thing.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

Flywheel side:





Clutch side:





New piston:





Two pics of the piston at BDC without a gasket. I assume the piston should clear the exhaust port, right?










Looking much better than the old slug:





And one through the spark plug hole that probably doesn't tell anything. Piston is at TDC:


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 1, 2010)

Lookin' good. Now what does a vac/pres leakdown check say about the effort?

Poge


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

*Wheres the bushing?*

maybe I`m wrong, but it looks like you forgot to put the rubber o-ring and bushing that slides over the clutch side crank.The seal actually seals agianst the bushing.On the few I did, the oldest 044 had the rubber ring, the bushing, and the seal actually seals over that.maybe I`m wrong, I just did one a couple weeks ago, but think thats how I did it.That clutch side is gonna leake the way it is.It also looks like the seal is seated too far.Did the crank spin hard.I think the seal is installed too far in on that side.I`ve only done 6 or 7, so I`m not sure unless I`ve got hands on, but think you have a problem on that clutch side.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> maybe I`m wrong, but it looks like you forgot to put the rubber o-ring and bushing that slides over the clutch side crank.The seal actually seals agianst the bushing.On the few I did, the oldest 044 had the rubber ring, the bushing, and the seal actually seals over that.maybe I`m wrong, I just did one a couple weeks ago, but think thats how I did it.That clutch side is gonna leake the way it is.It also looks like the seal is seated too far.Did the crank spin hard.I think the seal is installed too far in on that side.I`ve only done 6 or 7, so I`m not sure unless I`ve got hands on, but think you have a problem on that clutch side.



There wasn't an o-ring or bushing under the seal when I took it off. I don't remember how far it was seated in there before I removed it, but the crank was just a bit stiff, but it feels alright.

When I removed the seal the first time, there was just the plastic guide to keep the bearings spaced properly. The seal/gasket kit I bought from Bailey's didn't have anything other than the seals.

Nothing on the IPL between the bearing and the seal. Am I missing something?


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Lookin' good. Now what does a vac/pres leakdown check say about the effort?
> 
> Poge



I guess now would be a good time do that. I need to make sure I'm getting a good seal on the intake. I think that's been the toughest spot to seal. I tried doing it before taking the tank handle off and using the carb studs and I tried using a hose clamp and rubber after removing the intake boot.


Thoughts on the slug at BDC and it still showing above the exhaust port when the cylinder is mounted without a gasket?


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

I wish someone else would chime in.All the 044`s I`ve done had a bushing on that side in which the seal sealed against.Also, the seals I did on that side were all flush or sticking OUT just a bit, never recessed like yours is.Not all had the rubber ring, just the oldest, but all did have a bushing that slid over the crank.Maybe your 044 is a different model.


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

Do a search for 044 clutch side bushing.There is a Bushing that goes on that side.The seal will not seal until that bushing is installed.There is also an o-ring.Check into it before you proceed.I do think your seal might bee in too far also.There is not a lot of room there.I just don`t want you to have any problems.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> Do a search for 044 clutch side bushing.There is a Bushing that goes on that side.The seal will not seal until that bushing is installed.There is also an o-ring.Check into it before you proceed.I do think your seal might bee in too far also.There is not a lot of room there.I just don`t want you to have any problems.



How about a part number? Also, with the pressure/vacuum test, there's absolutely nothing between the case and the cylinder right now, so I doubt it would hold a seal. I'd like to get this question over the clutch side seal straightened out and then check the press/vac test.


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

I don`t know a part number.Use the search function.Punch in 044 clutch side bushing.Three posts come up.The third post has an ipl and a discussion about the o ring and the bushing/spacer.You and Poge, were talking about a Vacuum test.That seal will leak the way it is.i also believe it is in too far.I think it is touching the bearing.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> I don`t know a part number.Use the search function.Punch in 044 clutch side bushing.Three posts come up.The third post has an ipl and a discussion about the o ring and the bushing/spacer.You and Poge, were talking about a Vacuum test.That seal will leak the way it is.i also believe it is in too far.I think it is touching the bearing.



I try the search function here, but I got nothing on the Google function.

This is talking about the bushing for the worm gear.
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=19864&highlight=044+clutch+side+bushing


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

Yes, thats the bushing I`ve been talkng about.The seal seats on that bushing.


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## Brian13 (Oct 1, 2010)

I think this might be the other thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=121403&highlight=044+clutch


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

putting that bushing in allows you to guage how far in the seal needs to be.Some model 044`s call for a o-ring also.Part number96459451170.My point is, you should be putting that bushing in now, while you have access to the seal.It`s the bushing that the seal seals against.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> Yes, thats the bushing I`ve been talkng about.The seal seats on that bushing.





fatjoe said:


> putting that bushing in allows you to guage how far in the seal needs to be.Some model 044`s call for a o-ring also.Part number96459451170.My point is, you should be putting that bushing in now, while you have access to the seal.It`s the bushing that the seal seals against.



I see what you're saying, but when I pulled the oil pump, the bushing was outboard from the seal. I'll check the service manual.


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

That bushing is supposed to fit tight against the flared part of the crank.the seal does seal around it.I also did some checking, and a few different posts mention the seal only being installed flush with the race.Recessed and it will certainly rub on the bearings.It is best to tackle this now instead of when it`s all together.


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> I see what you're saying, but when I pulled the oil pump, the bushing was outboard from the seal. I'll check the service manual.



That very well may have been the demise of the saw.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> That bushing is supposed to fit tight against the flared part of the crank.the seal does seal around it.I also did some checking, and a few different posts mention the seal only being installed flush with the race.Recessed and it will certainly rub on the bearings.It is best to tackle this now instead of when it`s all together.



I was going on the it goes back together the way it came apart, but whoever assembled this thing before me didn't do it right. The service manual clearly indicates that the bushing for the oil pump worm gear goes on first against the bearing and the seal goes over that.

Good thing I posted pictures. Now, how do I pull this seal without ruining it. I don't want to have to order a new gasket set from Bailey's for a single seal.


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

Good question.Try Private messaging pioneerguy.I`m sure it will come out fairly easy.The good thing is you can get a hook type tool in there because it not sealed against anything.Something hooked but not sharp.Take your time, maybe try it tomorrow after you think about it.I might have an extra seal you can have.I`ll check tomorrow.Pioneerguy has always responded to me.Take your time, we`ll get it figured out.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> Good question.Try Private messaging pioneerguy.I`m sure it will come out fairly easy.The good thing is you can get a hook type tool in there because it not sealed against anything.Something hooked but not sharp.Take your time, maybe try it tomorrow after you think about it.I might have an extra seal you can have.I`ll check tomorrow.Pioneerguy has always responded to me.Take your time, we`ll get it figured out.



Very interesting that the o-ring on page 76 of the service manual, as seen here (image from the thread Brian posted a few back) in the middle top image on the page, isn't on the IPL anywhere that I have.






I bought the Lisle seal puller, but I don't think that's going to work without tearing the rubber.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

I sent Pioneerguy600 a PM for assistance. I'm wondering how much the seal is at the dealer. If it's only a couple bucks, maybe I'll just go grab one tomorrow so I can move forward with the build over the weekend.

Also noticed there isn't an o-ring in the base of the bushing.


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## Brian13 (Oct 1, 2010)

I got my seal for 15$ at the dealer. I think I have got a little lost here. Are we saying that the bushing goes under the seal?


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> I got my seal for 15$ at the dealer. I think I have got a little lost here. Are we saying that the bushing goes under the seal?



Yes. When starting reassembly, on the clutch side, the first thing that goes on the crankshaft against the bearing is the worm gear bushing with an o-ring in the wider end which is recessed on the inside. Then the oil seal goes over top of that.

Check out page 46 of the service manual in the section "Replacing the oil seals."



> Clutch side:
> - Apply the puller (with jaws 3.1) and
> withdraw the oil seal at the clutch side.
> Note: When using the puller make sure
> ...



However, I'm not sure how you'd remove the spacer bushing and then pess the seal home...


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## Brian13 (Oct 1, 2010)

Ok, now I remember, for a second I could not remember doing that at all. I was getting scared for a minute. I am on the same page now. I also read on one of those two threads posted earlier that you should put a little grease in the bushing to help the seal. I dont know if you will be able to remove the seal with out harming it. If you have some paint keys and a two bolt puller you could try that. The pain keys are pretty blunt and might do it, but I would plan on needing a new seal.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Ok, now I remember, for a second I could not remember doing that at all. I was getting scared for a minute. I am on the same page now. I also read on one of those two threads posted earlier that you should put a little grease in the bushing to help the seal. I dont know if you will be able to remove the seal with out harming it. If you have some paint keys and a two bolt puller you could try that. The pain keys are pretty blunt and might do it, but I would plan on needing a new seal.



Pioneerguy600 also suggests planning on a new seal. I guess I'll grab that tomorrow so I can keep moving. Hopefully it's in stock. 

Sucks I'll pay $15 for it when a complete seal and gasket set is less than $10 at Bailey's.


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## Brian13 (Oct 1, 2010)

If it makes you feel better, by the time I finished my first rebuild I spent about double or better of the value of the saw. I learned a lot about rebuilding top ends. If all you have to replace is the seal your doing pretty good.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 1, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> If it makes you feel better, by the time I finished my first rebuild I spent about double or better of the value of the saw. I learned a lot about rebuilding top ends. If all you have to replace is the seal your doing pretty good.



That's the only part I will have had to replace twice on the same saw because I screwed up.

I did have to buy some tools, but I'm not counting the price of tools I'll use for multiple other applications as a cost of the project. The two Torx drivers, the Mityvac kit, the seal puller, and little odds and ends, they add up, but they'll be used over and over again.

I'm hoping the assembly goes smoothly after the seals. I don't think there's anything that seems overly complicated after that. I've never put rings on a piston before, so that's something I'll take my time with.

I need to get the fuel line out of the tank and I'd like to work on cleaning up the plastics for a bit of cosmetic improvement.


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## Brian13 (Oct 1, 2010)

Dont forget the ring end gap when you do the rings. Other than that its pretty straight forward.


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## fatjoe (Oct 1, 2010)

i`m glad you are squared away now.I do remember that once the worm gear bushing is in place and you install the seal, flush to the race should be good.It should not be recessed at all.Good luck, and take pictures.Definately try and save the seal.You might beable to save it for another project or a backup.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 2, 2010)

Any other thoughts, suggestions, or input on the placement of the oil pump worm gear bushing, whether or not to use an o-ring or grease, and the instructions in the service manual?

I picked up the new oil seal for $12.XX and it was part number 9640 003 1972.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry guy`s but I have not been following your rebuild, missed out on this one somehow. You don`t need the O ring on the back end of the spacer, nearly impossible to find anyway, just fill the recess with hard grease. Next thing to watch is once that spacer is installed it has a square shouldered end facing out, it will ruin a good many seals just trying to get them on over it without tripping/ losing the inner coil spring that tensions the lip of the seal.
There is a special tapered tool that slips on over the shaft that is the same diameter as the spacer on the big end and tapers down to just about zero on the small end, this gently expands the seal so it goes on over the spacer without damaging or losing the coil spring behind the seal. If you don`t have the special tool then get some fine string or thread, start winding it around the shaft back at the spacer end and wind it on in such a way as to taper from the spacer shoulder outward down to just a single layer, making a cone shape. Next wind a single layer of electrical tape over the string making a smooth surface for the seal lip to ride up on, lightly grease the surface before sliding the seal up into place. Leave this stuff in place until the seal is properly driven home just in case, hopefully you will not have to remove the seal but just in case. After the seal is in place then remove the tape and string, resume the rebuild.
The reason I do not think you can remove the seal without damage is due to the small coil spring that helps tension the seal lips, it will undoubtedly get damaged during removal. Hope this helps some.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 2, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Sorry guy`s but I have not been following your rebuild, missed out on this one somehow. You don`t need the O ring on the back end of the spacer, nearly impossible to find anyway, just fill the recess with hard grease. Next thing to watch is once that spacer is installed it has a square shouldered end facing out, it will ruin a good many seals just trying to get them on over it without tripping/ losing the inner coil spring that tensions the lip of the seal.
> There is a special tapered tool that slips on over the shaft that is the same diameter as the spacer on the big end and tapers down to just about zero on the small end, this gently expands the seal so it goes on over the spacer without damaging or losing the coil spring behind the seal. If you don`t have the special tool then get some fine string or thread, start winding it around the shaft back at the spacer end and wind it on in such a way as to taper from the spacer shoulder outward down to just a single layer, making a cone shape. Next wind a single layer of electrical tape over the string making a smooth surface for the seal lip to ride up on, lightly grease the surface before sliding the seal up into place. Leave this stuff in place until the seal is properly driven home just in case, hopefully you will not have to remove the seal but just in case. After the seal is in place then remove the tape and string, resume the rebuild.
> The reason I do not think you can remove the seal without damage is due to the small coil spring that helps tension the seal lips, it will undoubtedly get damaged during removal. Hope this helps some.
> Pioneerguy600



So the bushing for the worm gear does go on before the seal. Then use string to basically create a cone rather that a step in the bushing, tape it, grease it and the bushing, and then install the seal.

Hard grease...anything specific or what kind?


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 2, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> So the bushing for the worm gear does go on before the seal. Then use string to basically create a cone rather that a step in the bushing, tape it, grease it and the bushing, and then install the seal.
> 
> Hard grease...anything specific or what kind?



Yes you got it right
No specific type, its just to help the seal slip on and only a light coat is needed, no worries if there is a little piled up behind the seal, the fuel mix will dissolve it and it will eventually get run through the combustion chamber. Vaseline is one lube I use a lot when putting stuff together on chainsaws, fuel dissolves it readily.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

I destroyed the first new seal I installed...oh well. New from the dealer was only about $12 and change.

String and tape made that like a Staples commercial - that was easy. I couldn't find the electrical tape and didn't feel like digging around for it, so I used Scotch tape. Don't do that. It tears apart way too easy. I got it out in two pieces and got all of it, but I wouldn't recommend using it.

I put Vaseline on the bushing on the inside and around the surfaces the seal would contact and put a bit on the crankshaft where the bushing rides. Then wound the string around the bushing until I had a cone about even with the step in the bushing. Then wrapped a piece of tape around the string and put some lube on the tape and the outside rim of the seal and the rubber. It went out nice and easy with a 22mm deep socket and tapped in place with the framing hammer.

Seal maybe tapped in just a bit deep, but the crank still turns freely and I needed to get as close as possible to the edge of the tape so it didn't tear off and get stuck in there.

Pics...


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

Anyone have a picture of how they seal the intake port? I'm using a hose clamp and inner tube from a bike tire. Hose clamp is 1/2". I hear the pressure leaking out there. Maybe I need to get some smaller thickness hose clamps. The clamp that holds the intake boot won't open far enough to get over the mount with the bike tube over it.

I'm going to try again with a smaller piece of rubber since it seems to be doubling over when tightened down.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

Smaller piece of rubber is still not cutting it. It's a lot better, but still not holding 5 lbs on either the pressure or vacuum. I can't hear the massive leak like I could before, but it's still slowly leaking off. 

I'm satisfied with how slow it leaks off considering I'm probably not using the best materials/tools to create the seals.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 3, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Smaller piece of rubber is still not cutting it. It's a lot better, but still not holding 5 lbs on either the pressure or vacuum. I can't hear the massive leak like I could before, but it's still slowly leaking off.
> 
> I'm satisfied with how slow it leaks off considering I'm probably not using the best materials/tools to create the seals.



I use the OEM rubber manifold on the cylinder with the factory clamp, plug the small end where the carb mounts with a suitable plastic plug, got hundreds of them to choose from.

Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> I use the OEM rubber manifold on the cylinder with the factory clamp, plug the small end where the carb mounts with a suitable plastic plug, got hundreds of them to choose from.
> 
> Pioneerguy600



Got a picture of this plastic plug?

I guess I'm at the point in the rebuild where I can get tank handle back on and start with a lot of the rebuild. I'd like to borrow/buy a caliper to measure squish and get this press/vac test done before I go much farther.

Now would be a good time to replace the fuel line and filter and get some other odds and ends together.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

Any tips for getting the fuel line to pop back into place? Any tool to use?


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## oscar4883 (Oct 3, 2010)

I believe that line installs from the top. Lube it with some mix and fish it through. Hook it with hemostats towards the top and try to get one edge seated. Pull it through while working the top into the hole. A safed pair of hemostats are nice but regular ones will do. I use Gorilla brand duct tape to seal the intake for testing. Works well with vac but not the greatest with pressure. Or install the tank and slide a piece of inner tube over the carb studs. Then put the metal ring that goes around the manifold on and use nuts as spacers until you can get the carb nuts on.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> I believe that line installs from the top. Lube it with some mix and fish it through. Hook it with hemostats towards the top and try to get one edge seated. Pull it through while working the top into the hole. A safed pair of hemostats are nice but regular ones will do. I use Gorilla brand duct tape to seal the intake for testing. Works well with vac but not the greatest with pressure. Or install the tank and slide a piece of inner tube over the carb studs. Then put the metal ring that goes around the manifold on and use nuts as spacers until you can get the carb nuts on.



I'll have to pick up a pair of the hemostats and give them a try. I was trying to install from the top, but it just wouldn't go. I tried a lube, but I'll give mix a try and hopefully that works better.

I wasn't going to mess with putting the tank back at least with the intake boot and what not until I get squish and the gasket taken care of.

I'll have to find a local place to get a caliper to measure the solder.

I'd love to have this thing back together by next weekend.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 3, 2010)

Whereabouts in PA are you? Make sure you check that squish in a few places to ensure its even. Also double check to make sure you have the correct fuel line. You may have to put some pressure on it to get it through. Needle nose pliers may get in there but hemostats will let you pull on the line towards the top.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 3, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Whereabouts in PA are you? Make sure you check that squish in a few places to ensure its even. Also double check to make sure you have the correct fuel line. You may have to put some pressure on it to get it through. Needle nose pliers may get in there but hemostats will let you pull on the line towards the top.



Lancaster County. You?

Someone, I was thinking it was you, posted a how-to on measuring squish here:
http://arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=2453456&postcount=182

Yep, it was your post. I pulled the picture up on my phone at RadioShack to figure out which solder to get. That was quite helpful.

Fuel line is from Bailey's for the 044.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 3, 2010)

Monroe County up in the Poconos. Maybe the aftermarket fuel line has a slightly different dimension? To bad your not a little closer I could give you a hand. You will be happy with this saw when its all said and done. That clutch side seal is the hardest part. Smooth sailing from here on out.


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## atpchas (Oct 3, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Anyone have a picture of how they seal the intake port? I'm using a hose clamp and inner tube from a bike tire. Hose clamp is 1/2". I hear the pressure leaking out there. Maybe I need to get some smaller thickness hose clamps. The clamp that holds the intake boot won't open far enough to get over the mount with the bike tube over it.
> 
> I'm going to try again with a smaller piece of rubber since it seems to be doubling over when tightened down.



I never had much luck with the hose clamp approach. If you have some large c-clamps, you might try one with a small piece of metal to spread out the pressure on the rubber sealing the port. For a pic, see
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=2143465&highlight=c-clamp#post2143465

Charlie


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## USMC0802 (Oct 4, 2010)

atpchas said:


> I never had much luck with the hose clamp approach. If you have some large c-clamps, you might try one with a small piece of metal to spread out the pressure on the rubber sealing the port. For a pic, see
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=2143465&highlight=c-clamp#post2143465
> 
> Charlie



I have a 6" c-clamp I used to press a locked up brake caliper piston back in to replace it. That should be big enough. I'll have to play around with that this evening and see what happens.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 4, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> I have a 6" c-clamp I used to press a locked up brake caliper piston back in to replace it. That should be big enough. I'll have to play around with that this evening and see what happens.



Haven't tried the c-clamp but it should play if you can get things aligned right on both ports. I plan on going that route on my 028 projects since they're already torn down to the cases.

Otherwise...

I use aluminum stock fashioned to the same shapes as the muffler port and the intake boot to create a more even seal across the rubber -- in my case, pieces of vinyl cove base (since I didn't have any old inner tube material laying around). Works great, though you will need to fashion spacers for the carb studs (to tighten the nuts down) with this approach. (I used lamp thread stock.) This way also tests the intake boot for leaks and is obviously a more convenient method when the saw isn't already torn down. Plus, 1/4 ~ 3/8 inch aluminum stock is cheap and easy to shape. 

And that seal sure looks a lot better now! Props to Fat Joe for his astute observation.

Coming along and looking good, man.

Poge


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## USMC0802 (Oct 5, 2010)

Borrowed a micrometer and caliper from my BIL. Don't know if I'll get to the squish measurement tonight, but eventually...


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## USMC0802 (Oct 5, 2010)

2 pieces of the solder measured at 0.018" and 2 at 0.019" without any material for a gasket.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 5, 2010)

You should be good to go with that squish. It is on the tight side however. I feel more comfortable with a little bit more so I would probably add a gasket made out of a soda can. FWIW


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## Brian13 (Oct 5, 2010)

I have read here that your minimum should be anywhere from .017 to .020. All depends on who you ask. You should be safe there. If you want to stay closer to the .020 side(witch is the most common number I have seen for a minimum) you could use a manila file folder or soda can for a gasket.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 5, 2010)

Do you just trace out the shape/holes of the supplied gasket on the can and cut it out? Don't you need a material that will slightly compress to give you a seal or will the can give a bit? Any need for a liquid gasket material?

Those measurements were taken at the narrowest portion of the flattened solder. That's the correct place to measure, out at the very edge of the piston, right?


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## oscar4883 (Oct 5, 2010)

Look at the width of the squish band in the cylinder to get a better idea of where you can measure. Sounds like you have it though. May want to check squish again to make sure it is consistent. When I make a gasket out of a can I cut a wide strip and tape it to a board. Then lay a stock gasket on top and trace the i.d. with a sharpie. Sharpie the bolt hole locations and then use a utility knive to score/cut the shape. Scissors on a leatherman or swiss army knove work great for cutting out the inner portion. I use a punch designed for leather work to cut the holes.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 5, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Do you just trace out the shape/holes of the supplied gasket on the can and cut it out? Don't you need a material that will slightly compress to give you a seal or will the can give a bit? Any need for a liquid gasket material?
> 
> Those measurements were taken at the narrowest portion of the flattened solder. That's the correct place to measure, out at the very edge of the piston, right?




If you have anything over .017 on a 044 you are fine, 3 of my 044`s are running .017-.019 and have no issues. If you use a metal gasket you should use a sealer on both sides of the gasket.

Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 5, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> If you have anything over .017 on a 044 you are fine, 3 of my 044`s are running .017-.019 and have no issues. If you use a metal gasket you should use a sealer on both sides of the gasket.
> 
> Pioneerguy600



Any sealer when not using a gasket at all? And for the squish, does it matter if it's getting a big bore rather than OEM P&C?


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 5, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Any sealer when not using a gasket at all? And for the squish, does it matter if it's getting a big bore rather than OEM P&C?



You need sealer if no gasket is used. No the big bore does not increase the bore diameter enough to be a problem. One of my modified 066`s is running .019 squish, no gasket and has 185 comp.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 5, 2010)

C-clamp isn't going to work for me until I can get something a lot less flexible than the sheet metal I was using.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 5, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> You need sealer if no gasket is used. No the big bore does not increase the bore diameter enough to be a problem. One of my modified 066`s is running .019 squish, no gasket and has 185 comp.
> Pioneerguy600



That's what I thought. Any sealer at an automotive store good or any specific recommendation?


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 5, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> That's what I thought. Any sealer at an automotive store good or any specific recommendation?



I have used Permatex Copper for more than 10 years now with absolutely no problems, others recommend Dirko, Yama Bond, Honda Bond etc.
Pioneerguy600


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## oscar4883 (Oct 6, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> You need sealer if no gasket is used. No the big bore does not increase the bore diameter enough to be a problem. One of my modified 066`s is running .019 squish, no gasket and has 185 comp.
> Pioneerguy600



Jerry- do you think it is good idea to run a slightly looser squish if someone is new or has some trouble with carb tuning? My thought is that if someone happens to be running rich carbon build-up may become and issue? Not talkin about you USMC, just wondering in general.


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## chopperfreak2k1 (Oct 6, 2010)

sorry for the thread jack, but i wanted to say thank you to USMC and everyone else for this thread. i have been really learning alot as i follow along. thanks guys!!


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## USMC0802 (Oct 6, 2010)

chopperfreak2k1 said:


> sorry for the thread jack, but i wanted to say thank you to USMC and everyone else for this thread. i have been really learning alot as i follow along. thanks guys!!



Maybe this could be retitled to the "Idiot's guide to rebuilding" as I think I've asked just about every question possible.

I'm thankful for all the help.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 6, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Jerry- do you think it is good idea to run a slightly looser squish if someone is new or has some trouble with carb tuning? My thought is that if someone happens to be running rich carbon build-up may become and issue? Not talkin about you USMC, just wondering in general.



I have not seen carbon build up in the squish band area of a tight squish engine, maybe because of the way I tune my saws but even the ones I have built for others have not had any problems with carbon build up out near the edge of the piston. The piston tops usually just look like they were lightly smoked from an oil lamp. Others may have different experiences and if so hopefully they will chime in.

Pioneerguy600


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## oscar4883 (Oct 6, 2010)

Thanks Jerry. I was just curious. As always, I appreciate your knowledge. Sorry for the derail USMC.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 6, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Thanks Jerry. I was just curious. As always, I appreciate your knowledge. Sorry for the derail USMC.



Nothing to apologize for, it's a great question as I have mostly seen the 0.020" as the min for squish. Good to know I'm alright at 0.018-0.019".


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## USMC0802 (Oct 7, 2010)

Threw the chain brake assembly, inner side plate, and hand guard on tonight before the Flyers game. I'm planning on finding a place to pick up aluminum stock to work with to make those seals work better for me, hemostats for the fuel line, gasket sealer, and some other odds and ends to finish this thing up.


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## Bowtie (Oct 7, 2010)

I have found a sealer that for me works even better than Dirko. I have been using the John Deere gasket maker, its white, and available at any JD dealership for you rural minded boys. 

It isnt cheap, but it works very well, and is impervious to gas and oil. JD uses it for oil pan, timing cover, water pump, etc gaskets. They dont even use gaskets in these applications, just that sealer, and it is great stuff.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

Picked up Permatex Ultra Copper silicone gasket maker, Meguiar's Plastx, and some other odds and ends today to get this saw finished. The only I haven't been able to find is hemostats.

I put the tank handle back on, new impulse hose, and rings on the piston. I worked on some aluminum stock to seal up the exhaust port and a piece to go over the carb studs to seal the intake boot.

Taking a quick break to pick up a case of beer before the Phillies game starts and then I'll be back at it. I'll have to read up on using this gasket material and if there's anything I need to do with the rings before the cylinder goes over them (any mix or lube on them?).

Maybe I'll be able to fire this thing up this weekend.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

I'm about as far as I can go before one last blast with the air compressor and getting the Permatex on. Wiring is back in, new plastics around the clutch that cover the chain brake are on. Found out my FIL has a pair of hemostats and I'm going to pick those up this evening for the fuel line.

Anyone have a write up for using a liquid gasket?


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 8, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> I'm about as far as I can go before one last blast with the air compressor and getting the Permatex on. Wiring is back in, new plastics around the clutch that cover the chain brake are on. Found out my FIL has a pair of hemostats and I'm going to pick those up this evening for the fuel line.
> 
> Anyone have a write up for using a liquid gasket?



Not sure about anyone having a write up for installing liquid gaskets but here is how I do it. I clean the base,where the cylinder bolts to the crankcase and the base of the cylinder with acetone or brake cleaner to get rid of all oil/grease etc. Once both surfaces are dry, I apply a thin coat to each and spread it out with my finger. Slide the cylinder down over the piston and rings, held in with a ring compressor and the piston supported on a split block. Once the cylinder covers the rings the compressor gets removed, push the cylinder down until it contacts the split block, remove the split block and snuggle the cylinder down to the base. Install the base bolts and torque them down, the gasket maker will be squeezed out until it is just a filler for the space between the cylinder and the case, probably less than a couple of thou. No need to let the Permatex to set up, by the time it takes me to install the rest or the running gear I usually just start them up and tune them. PS, don`t plug off the impulse port if it runs through the cylinder base.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Not sure about anyone having a write up for installing liquid gaskets but here is how I do it. I clean the base,where the cylinder bolts to the crankcase and the base of the cylinder with acetone or brake cleaner to get rid of all oil/grease etc. Once both surfaces are dry, I apply a thin coat to each and spread it out with my finger. Slide the cylinder down over the piston and rings, held in with a ring compressor and the piston supported on a split block. Once the cylinder covers the rings the compressor gets removed, push the cylinder down until it contacts the split block, remove the split block and snuggle the cylinder down to the base. Install the base bolts and torque them down, the gasket maker will be squeezed out until it is just a filler for the space between the cylinder and the case, probably less than a couple of thou. No need to let the Permatex to set up, by the time it takes me to install the rest or the running gear I usually just start them up and tune them. PS, don`t plug off the impulse port if it runs through the cylinder base.
> Pioneerguy600



Sounds good. I'm going to give the ring compressor a shot before putting Permatex on it to see how this goes. I have the ring compressor kit from Bailey's.

I want to give this thing one more blast with the air compressor before sealing it up.


EDIT: I'm not doing something right. I'm struggling getting the piston into the cylinder. I'm using the compressor and trying to get the cylinder over the piston and then slide the compressor down the piston to allow the cylinder to cover the rings...not working.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 8, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Sounds good. I'm going to give the ring compressor a shot before putting Permatex on it to see how this goes. I have the ring compressor kit from Bailey's.
> 
> I want to give this thing one more blast with the air compressor before sealing it up.
> 
> ...



If you know for sure your piston will fit up inside your cylinder then all you have to do is setup your piston ring compressor over the rings,but first make sure your rings are properly positioned in relationship to the ring stop pins. Make sure the compressor band is down a little from the top of the piston crown to allow the piston to start up inside the cylinder, keep the band squeezed tightly and gently push the cylinder down. The bottom of the cylinder is chamfered on the bore side so it should slide down easily, you can rock the cylinder slightly to help get it started on over the rings but go gently, not a big side to side rock! The piston skirt should be supported by a split block to keep it steady.

Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

Took another look and the top ring was on upside down. :censored:

Fixed that and it went right on. Now that I have it all together, intake boot in and everything, I wish I would have just hit it with the compressor and done this the first time and put the Permatex on. Oh well...

It's looking like a saw again.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 8, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Took another look and the top ring was on upside down. :censored:
> 
> Fixed that and it went right on. Now that I have it all together, intake boot in and everything, I wish I would have just hit it with the compressor and done this the first time and put the Permatex on. Oh well...
> 
> It's looking like a saw again.



Sounds good, keep us posted.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Sounds good, keep us posted.
> Pioneerguy600



How long after applying the Permatex do I need to wait to do a pressure/vacuum test? 

I did the test tonight after tightening everything down and there is just the tiniest, hardly noticeable, but that's without a gasket on the jug and I'll probably put a piece of rubber between the aluminum and the intake boot to ensure that's actually sealed as well.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 8, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> I did the test tonight after tightening everything down and there is just the tiniest, hardly noticeable, but that's without a gasket on the jug and I'll probably put a piece of rubber between the aluminum and the intake boot to ensure that's actually sealed as well.



You should definitely have rubber between your aluminum piece and the ports and/or intake boot assembly for an appropriate seal when doing a leakdown test.

Sound like you're damned near there and ready to rock the bad boy.

Huge props for a great thread and what appears to be a killer job well done.

But....

Video, or it didn't happen!

Poge


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 8, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> How long after applying the Permatex do I need to wait to do a pressure/vacuum test?
> 
> I did the test tonight after tightening everything down and there is just the tiniest, hardly noticeable, but that's without a gasket on the jug and I'll probably put a piece of rubber between the aluminum and the intake boot to ensure that's actually sealed as well.



You can do that immediately, no need to wait, your leak is not likely under the cylinder, the seals, decomp, the sparkplug threads, exhaust & manifold blockers or impulse line are more likely areas for the leak. Soapy water time.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> You should definitely have rubber between your aluminum piece and the ports and/or intake boot assembly for an appropriate seal when doing a leakdown test.
> 
> Sound like you're damned near there and ready to rock the bad boy.
> 
> ...



I'll get a video when it's done for the first time it fires up. It's almost there. Gasket tomorrow, if my 7 month old daughter will cooperate, then leak down test. If all is well there, I'll try to finish up the assembly before heading out to a picnic and then fire it up on Sunday.



pioneerguy600 said:


> You can do that immediately, no need to wait, your leak is not likely under the cylinder, the seals, decomp, the sparkplug threads, exhaust & manifold blockers or impulse line are more likely areas for the leak. Soapy water time.
> Pioneerguy600



I'll get the rubber pieces under the aluminum on the intake boot and retry. There is rubber under the piece on the exhaust side.

24 hours long enough to wait after applying the gasket to run it?


I'm not all that impressed with the Meguiar's Plastx. The plastics are a bit improved, but it's nothing special and still sun bleached. I'm going to give it a couple more rubs with the Meguiar's and then I guess I'll start thinking about a light sanding and clear coat if I'm not making the desired progress.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 8, 2010)

Soapy water time. I put rubber under the aluminum and tightened everything down. Put a bit of grease on the threads of the spark plug and the plug for the decomp opening. Tiny leak on pressure and vacuum. Impulse hose is new, seals are new...the only place there isn't anything to seal is between the jug and case.

What's the next most likely place to have a leak after the oil seals?

Just doesn't seem right to worry about a leak when there isn't a seal between the cylinder and the jug...but I'm certainly not an expert at this.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 9, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Soapy water time. I put rubber under the aluminum and tightened everything down. Put a bit of grease on the threads of the spark plug and the plug for the decomp opening. Tiny leak on pressure and vacuum. Impulse hose is new, seals are new...the only place there isn't anything to seal is between the jug and case.
> 
> What's the next most likely place to have a leak after the oil seals?
> 
> Just doesn't seem right to worry about a leak when there isn't a seal between the cylinder and the jug...but I'm certainly not an expert at this.


 
Apply low air pressure to the engine instead of vacuum, then spray soapy water around all the leak prone areas, you will find your leak. If you have Permatex between the cylinder and base you have your seal right there, that is what the Permatex is for. I have done so many saws with Permatex for a sealer/gasket I couldn`t count them all and never had a leak in that area.

Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 9, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Apply low air pressure to the engine instead of vacuum, then spray soapy water around all the leak prone areas, you will find your leak. * If you have Permatex between the cylinder and base you have your seal right there, that is what the Permatex is for. I have done so many saws with Permatex for a sealer/gasket I couldn`t count them all and never had a leak in that area.*
> 
> Pioneerguy600



I understand. I haven't applied the Permatex yet. I was just messing with the saw last night to see how easily the piston (with rings) went into the cylinder. I still need to put the gasket on the jug/case.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 9, 2010)

Don't worry about testing until you have the top end together. I use a permatex product as well and even though I have only about 25 or so saws under my belt, I have not seen it leak from the base because of the silicone. Pay attention to the seals and other dumb things like de-comp area and spark plug. You are doing the right thing by checking your work. Saves a lot of headaches later.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 9, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Don't worry about testing until you have the top end together. I use a permatex product as well and even though I have only about 25 or so saws under my belt, I have not seen it leak from the base because of the silicone. Pay attention to the seals and other dumb things like de-comp area and spark plug. You are doing the right thing by checking your work. Saves a lot of headaches later.



Air compressor just stopped running to fill up. As soon as my daughter is ready for a nap and I can hang out in the garage for a bit, I'll get this thing blown out one last time and then get the gasket on it. Should be ready to finish putting everything back together then.

Is 24 hours long enough wait time after applying the Permatex to start the saw?


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## USMC0802 (Oct 9, 2010)

Before and after pics for the Meguiar's Plastx:
Before:






After:


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 9, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Don't worry about testing until you have the top end together. Pay attention to the seals and other dumb things like de-comp area and spark plug....



.....and the MityVac connections themselves -- especially if you're using a coupler between the MityVac hose and the impulse line.

You should hold vac for 10+ minutes. To be completely thorough, turn the flywheel to reposition the crank in the seals and test again for another 10+ minutes. Do it again once more. Then do your pressure test.

And thanks for the review on the Plastx. Looks like some very fine sanding and some clearcoat may indeed yield more desirable results there.

Poge


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## USMC0802 (Oct 9, 2010)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> .....and the MityVac connections themselves -- especially if you're using a coupler between the MityVac hose and the impulse line.
> 
> You should hold vac for 10+ minutes. To be completely thorough, turn the flywheel to reposition the crank in the seals and test again for another 10+ minutes. Do it again once more. Then do your pressure test.
> 
> ...



I think the seals are good. I'm almost done with the first 10 minutes of vacuum and it's not moving at all. I just turned the flywheel and watched the needle move but return to it's original 8 lbs of vacuum.

I'll give the pressure test a check next. Apparently, having a gasket between the jug and case makes a difference.

If the press/vac test is good, probably safe to assume my gasket I made with the Permatex is good to go and I can start this thing up tomorrow or how long does the gaseket need to sit?

EDIT: Pressure test lost about .75 lbs over 10 minutes...good enough?


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## oscar4883 (Oct 9, 2010)

I finish and start them right up. Used to worry about the gasket material setting up but PioneerGuy has always mentioned the fact that he does not wait. If it is good enough for him then it is good enough for me! LOL I would make sure, as others have mentioned, to hit everything with soapy water. Like Pogo said, check the connections too.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 9, 2010)

The tire shine idea. I thing Wiggs is the one who came up with it. For some reason I remember him saying it is oing to take a few coats. Letting them soak in real well. I think anyway.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 9, 2010)

I need to get my hands on the hemostats to pull the fuel line into place in the tank handle and put the new fuel filter on, tighten the clutch and flywheel down, and put the rest of those sides on and it should be done.

Is less than .75 lbs something to worry about over the course of 10 minutes on the pressure test?


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## stubnail67 (Oct 9, 2010)

*cool thread*

ive enjoyed reading your thread looking forward to seeing it all done!


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 9, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> Is less than .75 lbs something to worry about over the course of 10 minutes on the pressure test?



If you held vac, I'd be much less concerned about that small of a pressure leak -- especially if you passed the soapy water test with no bubbles anywhere. A pressure decline as small as the one you describe does not mean a vacuum leak.

And air getting IN is what you obviously want to avoid more than that small of an amount getting out.

I will obviously be corrected soon if I'm off base here, but I'd say you're good to go after a superb all around effort!



Poge


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 9, 2010)

You are good to go, no need to wait for the Permatex to set up, .75 lb loss of pressure over 10 min is nothing at all to worry about. Get that saw back together and start it up, go cut wood. 
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 10, 2010)

Saw is back together. I'm going to continue working on the plastics, but I wanted to get the thing assembled to remind myself of what it looks like as a complete powerhead (would have without the pictures I took) since I started this project toward the end of August. I'm thinking about repainting a number of things on it.

So, here's the proof it's a complete powerhead:











I'll have to try it out to see if I like the boat handle starter. It's what the seller threw in attached to the extra flywheel side cover. I replaced the cracked and banged up 044 plastics with MS440 plastics, but I'm going to see if I can swap the badges out. I figured I'd grab the plastics with the opening for the decomp button should I decide to use it.

Now, to start this thing and begin the break in process...I hear regular dinosaur oil should be used rather than synthetic. Yes, no, maybe? I'll do a search for new saw break in and see what I can find about fuel/mix and how to treat the saw.


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## Brian13 (Oct 10, 2010)

Looks good, cant help you on the oil. I just mix it a little rich and run it a little rich.


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## fatjoe (Oct 11, 2010)

Come on now, fire her up! I would of have fuel in that thing last night at 11:00 when you posted the pictures.When I get to putting the plastics back on, I`m a nervous wreck(like a little kid getiing a new bike).The BEEEEST part of a rebuild is when it first starts up for the first time.I always use fresh mix that I use in all my saws.Put some fresh mix in her a start it.Let us know how she runs..Looks good up till now..


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## oscar4883 (Oct 11, 2010)

Just put some mix in it and fire it up! I would also like to see it sitting on todays USA Today with the date displayed. Not that I don't trust you or anything. LOL  Nice job. Be prepared for a couple of little snags during start-up/initial tuning with your first build.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 11, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Just put some mix in it and fire it up! I would also like to see it sitting on todays USA Today with the date displayed. Not that I don't trust you or anything. LOL  Nice job. Be prepared for a couple of little snags during start-up/initial tuning with your first build.



Hang ups...such as? I should see if I can borrow a tach until I buy one. I set the carb screws at 1 turn out on the H and L. Where should the idle screw be? I wanted to do a video of the first start, that's why I didn't do it last night. I'm leaving work early to head to Philly for the Flyers home opener tonight, so I probably won't get to it today either.

Should I measure compression after it's run for a while or can I get a good measurement now?


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## oscar4883 (Oct 11, 2010)

Usually carb related issues find me. LOL I would set the H a little further out. Maybe 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns. You will get the low side tuned in first so the H can wait a little. Turn the idle screw in until you can see the throtle open a bit. Check the comp. after you run it a few times to make sure all the assembly lube is burned out. Otherwise you will get a false reading. A really rich saw, that still has some fuel in the cylinder after shut-down, will also give you a false reading. As for the tach, I would just tune it in the cut to get the high side correct. Start real rich and turn the H in a little at a time until it clears up when you put load on it.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 13, 2010)

Alright, I hesitated to admit to this, but I will for the benefit of anyone else completing their first build, 100th build, whatever...*don't forget to tighten the flywheel down to specs*.

The saw took a few pulls to get the fuel through the new line, through the cleaned up, rebuilt carb, etc, but it popped and then fired up on the next pull for about a second or two.

The flywheel sheered the woodruff key right off. I picked up a new key last night for a $1.30 something.

When I get back from my 5 hour road trip for w**k today, I'll get the key installed and give it another shot.


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## fatjoe (Oct 13, 2010)

It started, thats a good sign.I always tap the flywheel with my wooden mallet as I tighten it.I don`t hit it on the fins, just on the center.It`s just another lesson you learned for the next one.Your almost done, keep up the good work.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 13, 2010)

USMC0802 said:


> When I get back from my 5 hour road trip for w**k today, I'll get the key installed and give it another shot.



Make sure your clutch is......., well, never mind! 

And on your compression check, a few tanks through the saw to seat the new rings will yield more meaningful results.

Poge


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## USMC0802 (Oct 13, 2010)

Does the woodruff key seat in the crank with the rounded side out toward the flywheel or the round side down in the groove in the crank?

It came out with with the round side up, but the manual looks the other way, I believe.


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## UK heartwood (Oct 13, 2010)

Rounded side into the crankshaft, probably why the last one sheared as the taper on the flywheel needs to be a good fit on the crank.

Make sure there are no burrs on the shaft or in the flywheel before reassembly
to make sure there is good contact between the parts.It is the friction of the tapers that keep it from turning.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 13, 2010)

UK heartwood said:


> Rounded side into the crankshaft, probably why the last one sheared as the taper on the flywheel needs to be a good fit on the crank.
> 
> Make sure there are no burrs on the shaft or in the flywheel before reassembly
> to make sure there is good contact between the parts.It is the friction of the tapers that keep it from turning.



I had the round side down. Just wanted to ensure the cause was that it wasn't tightened down enough.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 13, 2010)

New woodruff key installed and flywheel is tightened down. Now, something new and something old. Looks like this thing is leaking some gas, somehow from the top of the tank. I pulled the filter base to check the fuel line where it comes through the tank and it looks dry below the carb. Here's three pictures:















Thoughts on that?

And something old...the new washer and e-clip look very similar to the one I posted before that everyone thought was so severely worn because of some crap behind the washer. Now what?
New washer:





Old washer:


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 13, 2010)

Concerning the fuel leak, try pulling the cap off the tank vent and check to see if the umberella seal is still in good shape, that might be where your leak is coming from. The E clip and washer that hold the ring drive on looks a little worn, a new set will fit a little tighter fit.
Pioneerguy600


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## USMC0802 (Oct 13, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Concerning the fuel leak, try pulling the cap off the tank vent and check to see if the umberella seal is still in good shape, that might be where your leak is coming from. The E clip and washer that hold the ring drive on looks a little worn, a new set will fit a little tighter fit.
> Pioneerguy600



The washer and e-clip are new in the top picture, as is the needle cage and rim sprocket. Only the clutch drum isn't new.

I'll check out the tank vent and look at the manual to get a better idea of what I'm looking for.


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## fatjoe (Oct 14, 2010)

As far as the C-Clip goes, I recently found that there is indeed a recess in some of the washers.The fact that you couldn`t get yours off and the pictures showed what looked like nylon fibers, led us to believe it was in fact worn down.I do think it did wear some and the new one should fit better.As far as the tank vent, there are several different set ups on stihl tank vents.You definately need to look at your manual.Some of those style vents like yours have a metal clip that holds that cap on securely.You will have to check a manual for your model 044.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 14, 2010)

fatjoe said:


> As far as the C-Clip goes, I recently found that there is indeed a recess in some of the washers.The fact that you couldn`t get yours off and the pictures showed what looked like nylon fibers, led us to believe it was in fact worn down.I do think it did wear some and the new one should fit better.As far as the tank vent, there are several different set ups on stihl tank vents.You definately need to look at your manual.Some of those style vents like yours have a metal clip that holds that cap on securely.You will have to check a manual for your model 044.



Nothing in the owner's manual about a tank vent. The service manual I have shows a different style tank vent than what I have. I'm going to go pull the cap off and take a look to see what's under there other than the filter.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 23, 2010)

OK, sorry for the tardiness of the update, but I've been busy. Saw is running. With the help of my buddy tuning the carb, the saw runs and sounds great, however, I think I need to replace the clutch springs as I can't get the chain to stop spinning at any speed and the saw stalls if I'm not on the throttle in wood or if I hit the chain brake at idle. I'm picking up springs tomorrow, but do I need to get the shoes as well? Stihl shop told me the shoes are sold individually around $13/shoe.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 23, 2010)

Take a close look at the holes the springs go into. If they are severly elongated then you will probably need new shoes are an entire assembly. Springs will probably do the trick. I use an awl to pop them on and off.


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## Brian13 (Oct 23, 2010)

Glad to here you got it running, hope the clutch springs are easier to install than on an big Mcculloch clutch.


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## USMC0802 (Oct 24, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Glad to here you got it running, hope the clutch springs are easier to install than on an big Mcculloch clutch.



I hope so as well. I saw in the service manual that there is yet again a Stihl tool to do the assembly. Whatever, I have a vice, I'll figure it out.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 24, 2010)

Needle nose pliers is all you really need but a hooked end tool is really handy, I made one from an old worn out slot screwdriver, a little grinding then bending the hook with the help of a little heat. It makes a handy tool for plenty of uses around springs on chainsaws.
Pioneerguy600


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## chopperfreak2k1 (Oct 25, 2010)

i've been away for a little while, it's good to see all the progress you've made! one thing though, i'm not sure how you came to use maguires plastx but it's the wrong thing. you need maguires endurance tire gel, that is what wiggs used with such great results. pick some up, i'm sure you will be much more satisfied with the results. again GREAT thread!


and don't forget the video!


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## NUTNDUN (Oct 25, 2010)

I can attest to that the his 044 runs great. We got it tuned up minus the chain not stopping at idle but he got to cut some wood with it and with the 20" bar buried it was like it wasn't even working. Now I wanna get rid of my 362 and get a 460.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 25, 2010)

NUTNDUN said:


> I can attest to that the his 044 runs great. We got it tuned up minus the chain not stopping at idle but he got to cut some wood with it and with the 20" bar buried it was like it wasn't even working.



Sure ya did. 

Video, or it didn't happen.



Poge


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## chopperfreak2k1 (Oct 25, 2010)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Sure ya did.
> 
> Video, or it didn't happen.
> 
> ...



:agree2:


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## NUTNDUN (Oct 25, 2010)

I will have to let him post a video of it running now because we didn't take one while he was here.


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