# To top or not to top?



## Neem (Oct 3, 2010)

I work for a small company and I am the only climber. My bosssss is a short minded redneck (we don't use that word but you'd call him so...)...he's only about quantity, not about quality and safety. When I work on my own I do things my way (try to do in the proper way) but when I work for him I have to " compromise"....He's not caring about trees but only about his wallet and if the costumer says CUT here... he says ...well, you cut there...and every time is a big fight...Last week he took me to a park inside a factory where there are 6 Oaks and 2 Sweetgums...they go from 60 to 80 ft and he wants me to top them (remove 20-25 Ft)....that's not only against trees' nature...that is also against my nature...but here's the problem...if I don't do he calls another guy with the bucket truck who will top the trees and I will lose my money...:angry2and to tell the truth I'd need them right now).....in any case trees will be topped and damaged...so... should I do the work or not?

M


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## derwoodii (Oct 3, 2010)

Hmm hard spot your in Neem I say start looking for a way out asap.
Hope you can find a better new job easy with a better boss. 
If you work for some one right or wrong sadly you do as they say unless its illegal etc.
So you gotta do as he says if hes not willing to listen or learn its his loss and intime his type will disappear.
Still knockin 1/3 off a sweetgums not unheard of. I done it plenty of times. You got to do it with care for the tree. Find the balance of customer wish and the tree health.


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## Neem (Oct 3, 2010)

You're right Derwoodii but not so easy to change job right now in Italy...we have hard time here..lots of people unemployed out here and who has a job he keeps it... even in adverse conditions. I am planning to start to work on my own and start something with a friend of mine who has a small company...but it will still take some time..till then....keep on fighting:angry2:
M


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## beowulf343 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sounds like your "integrity" has a price. I've seen this often around here, speeches about proper tree care, yet when money is needed, proper tree care goes out the window. If you really believed what you were saying, you wouldn't do it. If enough treemen actually stood up for their beliefs, would the bosses finally take notice? Revolution has to start somewhere with someone.


Anyway, i'd do it, but i'm not a "proper arborist" either. I've practiced just about every offense that can be done to a tree. I'm frankly in it for the money and the fun. People won't like it, but you don't find me bleeting about doing things that go against my beliefs either.


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## lxt (Oct 3, 2010)

Ive always done what the time period says is the right way???? when I was a kid helping out my Dad & his buddies 70`s era.. topping was the norm!! in the 80`s roundovers & dropcrotching replaced the hat rack!

90`s....enter "shigo mania" & whala tree terminology changes, Now you have crown reductions....hmmm & if I reduce by 1/3rd & pull ends = a roundover to me?????...the collar cut replaced the flush cut (for the better i might add) and so on......

while many will chime in with what they think is right or wrong......ultimately you must make that decision, most of my competition still top trees, flush cut & do things that are not considered right....BUT, right now people are looking at the bottom line (money) and the lowest price 90% of the time wins!!!


good luck,


LXT...............


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 3, 2010)

Unfortunately in your situation you need to do as told , its not your choice but defying him makes you poor so do what you need to do , his time will run out people will realize what he's selling is wrong and chances are he may change , but I have to say that there are companies around here that top alot of trees and they are proud of there work ... So you may want to consider changes companies


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## Bermie (Oct 3, 2010)

Can you as much as possible make reduction cuts to laterals...?
Kind of compromise between outright topping and a hard reduction...

We do it with casuarinas over here, but they are weed trees and almost bombproof...I won't TOP them but I sure as heck will cut them back real hard to laterals and collars. At least its better than the landscapers coming along with their ladders and homelites and walloping them all to 20'.


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## Neem (Oct 3, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> Sounds like your "integrity" has a price. I've seen this often around here, speeches about proper tree care, yet when money is needed, proper tree care goes out the window. If you really believed what you were saying, you wouldn't do it. If enough treemen actually stood up for their beliefs, would the bosses finally take notice? Revolution has to start somewhere with someone.
> 
> 
> Anyway, i'd do it, but i'm not a "proper arborist" either. I've practiced just about every offense that can be done to a tree. I'm frankly in it for the money and the fun. People won't like it, but you don't find me bleeting about doing things that go against my beliefs either.


 If I didn't believe what i was saying, I wouldn't have written... and about my "integrity"...not here claiming to be a "proper perfect arborist" but when I do my own jobs, try to do them the way I think it's right...when not I try to compromise. That's it. and don't worry as far as i am concerned revolution has already started...but I'm not so stupid to put my family in trouble only because I dont'wanna dirty my "integrity"


Anyway if you wish to support my revolution, so that I can competely focus on that, I will send you the details of my check account ......

M


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## Neem (Oct 3, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Can you as much as possible make reduction cuts to laterals...?
> Kind of compromise between outright topping and a hard reduction...



I will try to compromise in some way...and this could be a good solution...at the end it's me going on the tree and doing the work...and usually customers are satisfied even if I don't do exactly as the poor redneck had said 



> At least its better than the landscapers coming along with their ladders and homelites and walloping them all to 20'.



...far far better


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## boo (Oct 3, 2010)

As an owner, I inform the customer of the dangers in topping. It's their choice to follow the rules of research or not, it's their tree. I try to release myself from liability of negligence by informing them of the dangers.
Another reason I am the owner is because I have a hard time listening to an idiot telling me what and how to do... I've been the boss for over 18 years now.
I will do the work as the customer wants, only after allowing them to make an INFORMED DECISION.
If you refuse to do it, they will find someone else to do what they want done, be it correct or not.
The owner of your company may or may not already know this, but more than likely, if you give him/her static, it could cost you your job.
Ultimately, it's his/her name on the trucks, and you work for him/her.


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## mjellison (Oct 3, 2010)

I hate being put in that situation. Nothing makes me angrier than spending the day mangling a beautiful tree and basically making the planet a little uglier. I think the practice of topping is dying out though, it seems at least where I live people are starting to realize the value of trees and how to properly take care of them. It's people like you too that will helping to change this, keep advocating for proper tree care and good luck getting started with your own gig


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## Rftreeman (Oct 4, 2010)

if you have a problem with the way your boss does things then you have two choices, do it or find another employer.......your boss is giving the customer what they want rather people think it's right or not...


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## Neem (Oct 4, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> .....your boss is giving the customer what they want rather people think it's right or not...


 That's the point... and I don't think that is professional, even if a lot of companies do....if I call an electrician he knows how to make a n electrical system , not me telling him how and where to pull the cables...the same should be with trees

M


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## Rftreeman (Oct 4, 2010)

Neem said:


> That's the point... and I don't think that is professional, even if a lot of companies do....if I call an electrician he knows how to make a n electrical system , not me telling him how and where to pull the cables...the same should be with trees
> 
> M


apples to oranges.........:deadhorse: move on to a different company if you feel it's not right but who are you to tell a client how his trees should look, if that's what he want's then give it or someone else will....


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## Neem (Oct 4, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> apples to oranges.........:deadhorse: move on to a different company if you feel it's not right but who are you to tell a client how his trees should look, if that's what he want's then give it or someone else will....



Now I get it....so tomorrow I wake up and I want my dog to have two legs....I go to the veterinarian and ask " Tired of my dog, wanna change something...can you cut down a couple of legs so that I have a two-leg dog?"  ....who is he to tell me how MY dog should look???
M


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## ozzy42 (Oct 4, 2010)

Neem said:


> Now I get it....so tomorrow I wake up and I want my dog to have two legs....I go to the veterinarian and ask " Tired of my dog, wanna change something...can you cut down a couple of legs so that I have a two-leg dog?"  ....who is he to tell me how MY dog should look???
> M



A poor comparison if you ask me.

Plants and animals are not the same thing.

Would you leave your family dog out in the middle of the yard during a thunder storm?


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## Neem (Oct 4, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> A poor comparison if you ask me.



...didn't ask you...and anyway it was not about animals being same as plants..( even if we could speak about this...many animals are far far better than many human beings.... :monkey: gotta lot to learn from them ..and so why poor plants should be regarded as inferior? )...but about being professional...and being professional doesn't mean do all the client ask just beacuse it's HIS tree...not a mercenary. this is just my poor opinion


And don't know in your country but here (unfortunately only at a local level...and not in the whole nation ...till now) there are laws that don't allow you to top trees or to cut them as you like...or you can get fined....sometimes very heavily....

M


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## Neem (Oct 4, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> Would you leave your family dog out in the middle of the yard during a thunder storm?



...........yessssssssss.......she's pretty wild...sort of wolf...likes running under heavy storms


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## beowulf343 (Oct 4, 2010)

Neem said:


> ...didn't ask you...and anyway it was not about animals being same as plants..( even if we could speak about this...many animals are far far better than many human beings.... :monkey: gotta lot to learn from them ..and so why poor plants should be regarded as inferior? )...but about being professional...and being professional doesn't mean do all the client ask just beacuse it's HIS tree...not a mercenary. this is just my poor opinion
> 
> 
> And don't know in your country but here (unfortunately only at a local level...and not in the whole nation ...till now) there are laws that don't allow you to top trees or to cut them as you like...or you can get fined....sometimes very heavily....
> ...



Because i don't believe in neg repping, you are an idiot.


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## Neem (Oct 4, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> Because i don't believe in neg repping, you are an idiot.



oh oh oh...here we are...if you work as fast as you judge then you're the MAN Beowolfy ......been reading and waiting quite a bit before start posting cause i found threads and informations very useful and liked this site....unfortunately there are also people like you....wasn't you pointing the finger against my "integrity"???...and seen we are far away from the reason I started the thread.........I quit...you're the Winner...cause I don't believe in neg persons.

P.S. ....if you still wanna send money for my revolution (remember???) I take them....not angry


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## ozzy42 (Oct 4, 2010)

Neem said:


> I work for a small company and I am the only climber. My bosssss is a short minded redneck (we don't use that word but you'd call him so...)...he's only about quantity, not about quality and safety. When I work on my own I do things my way (try to do in the proper way) but when I work for him I have to " compromise"....He's not caring about trees but only about his wallet and if the costumer says CUT here... he says ...well, you cut there...and every time is a big fight...Last week he took me to a park inside a factory where there are 6 Oaks and 2 Sweetgums...they go from 60 to 80 ft and he wants me to top them (remove 20-25 Ft)....that's not only against trees' nature...that is also against my nature...but here's the problem...if I don't do he calls another guy with the bucket truck who will top the trees and I will lose my money...:angry2and to tell the truth I'd need them right now).....in any case trees will be topped and damaged...so... should I do the work or not?
> 
> M





Neem said:


> ...didn't ask you
> 
> M



I beg to differ ,but you did ask.


Not trying to start anything ,but if you were convinced in your mind of what to do ,you would not have started the thread ,no?


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## Neem (Oct 4, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> I beg to differ ,but you did ask.
> 
> 
> Not trying to start anything ,but if you were convinced in your mind of what to do ,you would not have started the thread ,no?



I was referring to what you said about the comparison ...just joking...didn't mean to answer in a bad way. And for sure I started the Thread cause I didn't know what to do and needed an advice from someone more experienced.

M


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## ozzy42 (Oct 4, 2010)

Fair enough,and excuse my manners for not welcoming you to the site.

I can't rep until sometime tonight,but I'll be sure to hit you with some.


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## beowulf343 (Oct 4, 2010)

Neem said:


> oh oh oh...here we are...if you work as fast as you judge then you're the MAN Beowolfy ......been reading and waiting quite a bit before start posting cause i found threads and informations very useful and liked this site....unfortunately there are also people like you....wasn't you pointing the finger against my "integrity"???...and seen we are far away from the reason I started the thread.........I quit...you're the Winner...cause I don't believe in neg persons.
> 
> P.S. ....if you still wanna send money for my revolution (remember???) I take them....not angry



First off, i'm tired of yahoo's like you dumping on us rednecks.

Secondly, i'm tired of yahoo's like you running down the human race.

Thirdly, i'm tired of yahoo's like you starting threads whining about how their boss makes them do things that go against their beliefs. I still think that if these beliefs are so important to you, sack up and quit. If you keep working for the guy, you are going to either have to do what he tells you or get fired. But i think you are actually looking for validation for doing what you want to do.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 4, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> First off, i'm tired of yahoo's like you dumping on us rednecks.
> 
> Secondly, i'm tired of yahoo's like you running down the human race.
> 
> Thirdly, i'm tired of yahoo's like you starting threads whining about how their boss makes them do things that go against their beliefs. I still think that if these beliefs are so important to you, sack up and quit. If you keep working for the guy, you are going to either have to do what he tells you or get fired. But i think you are actually looking for validation for doing what you want to do.



Wow self proclaimed half decent tree climber , BUT A FIRST CLASS #### TALKER ..


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## beowulf343 (Oct 4, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Wow self proclaimed half decent tree climber , BUT A FIRST CLASS #### TALKER ..



Lol.

So what am i supposed to do. "Oh poor Neem, come here, cry on my shoulder. I know, your boss is just a big, mean, stupidhead. He's obviously not smart enough to take care of trees because he doesn't give them the respect they deserve. I mean seriously Neem, i can't believe this guy doesn't think trees are more valuable than humans. Cry it out Neem, here's some tissues. I know, I know. You want to do things your own way, because it's obvious you know more than your boss. Heck, i can't believe someone that stupid isn't working for you. I think you are right Neem, just go and do what you think is best instead of what your boss tells you to do. Really, stop crying. Everything will work out, this guy will realize you are his superior and offer you the company."


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 4, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> Lol.
> 
> So what am i supposed to do. "Oh poor Neem, come here, cry on my shoulder. I know, your boss is just a big, mean, stupidhead. He's obviously not smart enough to take care of trees because he doesn't give them the respect they deserve. I mean seriously Neem, i can't believe this guy doesn't think trees are more valuable than humans. Cry it out Neem, here's some tissues. I know, I know. You want to do things your own way, because it's obvious you know more than your boss. Heck, i can't believe someone that stupid isn't working for you. I think you are right Neem, just go and do what you think is best instead of what your boss tells you to do. Really, stop crying. Everything will work out, this guy will realize you are his superior and offer you the company."



Wow impressive right over your head and never slowed down ..


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## beowulf343 (Oct 4, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Wow impressive right over your head and never slowed down ..



Actually no, but you've been looking to get into an argument with me for a while, and i'm kind of having fun putting you off.:biggrinbounce2:


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 4, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> Actually no, but you've been looking to get into an argument with me for a while, and i'm kind of having fun putting you off.:biggrinbounce2:



It may come time to hash it out , maybe sooner rather than later I hate the suspense ....


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## Rftreeman (Oct 4, 2010)

Neem said:


> Now I get it....so tomorrow I wake up and I want my dog to have two legs....I go to the veterinarian and ask " Tired of my dog, wanna change something...can you cut down a couple of legs so that I have a two-leg dog?"  ....who is he to tell me how MY dog should look???
> M


again, apples to oranges..........but it is your dog and if you could find a vet to do it then it
s your business, not mine....


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## mattfr12 (Oct 4, 2010)

Enless topping becomes illegale wich it is not in my area it will probably continue to happen long after all of us retire and im 24. alot of customers have it set in thier mind that thats what they want done and nothing else. everyone on here knows its terrible to top trees. but if you pass on a job wich around here topping a maple goes for 500$+ depending on size, thier will be 50 companies behind you that will do it and thats 500 less you earn that year.

in the area i live in topping is huge and if i passed on jobs like that that could be 50,000 or more a year? i would give up. alot of HO are self proclaimed experts and already know whats best for thier trees.

Get paid or get shut down?

thiers lots of ways of looking at it


best of luck to all


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 4, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> Enless topping becomes illegale wich it is not in my area it will probably continue to happen long after all of us retire and im 24. alot of customers have it set in thier mind that thats what they want done and nothing else. everyone on here knows its terrible to top trees. but if you pass on a job wich around here topping a maple goes for 500$+ depending on size, thier will be 50 companies behind you that will do it and thats 500 less you earn that year.
> 
> in the area i live in topping is huge and if i passed on jobs like that that could be 50,000 or more a year? i would give up. alot of HO are self proclaimed experts and already know whats best for thier trees.
> 
> ...



I agree with you 100% and even know I will not "top" any tree it has cost me alot of money and every tree that I have been asked to do were done by someone so sometimes I really question the choice


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## rwbinbc (Oct 4, 2010)

In My book the customer is allway right, Unless it deals with safety. I deal with a couple "redneck" bosses. One told me He didn't believe in using wedges, I us wedges alot. He kept fight with a plug cut binding the bar till I popped a wedge in it. Then I see Him using My wedge the next day, You can teach a old dog, old tricks. If They own it I'll cut it how ever they want, Safely. 

I see things one way, You see them another, And that guy over there well He see's it another way.........


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## Neem (Oct 5, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> Enless topping becomes illegale wich it is not in my area it will probably continue to happen long after all of us retire and im 24. alot of customers have it set in thier mind that thats what they want done and nothing else. everyone on here knows its terrible to top trees. but if you pass on a job wich around here topping a maple goes for 500$+ depending on size, thier will be 50 companies behind you that will do it and thats 500 less you earn that year.
> 
> in the area i live in topping is huge and if i passed on jobs like that that could be 50,000 or more a year? i would give up. alot of HO are self proclaimed experts and already know whats best for thier trees.
> 
> ...



Youy're right Matt. Here is the same and if you pass on a job another company is gonna do that and honestly now I can't afford that. So probably I think I am gonna do the job ...but I won't stop talking to people and trying to explain them that topping is not the only way... what is wrong with that?hoping one day to be in the conditions I can even say no to certain jobs. Thanx you all guys for repping and for the advices...............Hey Beowulf ...take it easy....don't take it personally......and anyway what does "yahoo's like "mean???....just curious ...sometimes I really can't catch all slang.....sorry 


M


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## mattfr12 (Oct 5, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I agree with you 100% and even know I will not "top" any tree it has cost me alot of money and every tree that I have been asked to do were done by someone so sometimes I really question the choice



Ya its hard to do the right thing for the tree sometimes and still make money. the town i live in for example has 3000 trees on its streets. over 2000 of them have been repetitivly toped for the past 50 years. the numbers of the trees or just examples could be more or less.

the damage and destruction of thies trees happened before most of us where even born. once the deed is done the tree is crap. the way i look at it is im getting paid to just retop and already worthless tree. 

what else can you do with it other than removal.


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## mattfr12 (Oct 5, 2010)

Neem said:


> Youy're right Matt. Here is the same and if you pass on a job another company is gonna do that and honestly now I can't afford that. So probably I think I am gonna do the job ...but I won't stop talking to people and trying to explain them that topping is not the only way... what is wrong with that?hoping one day to be in the conditions I can even say no to certain jobs. Thanx you all guys for repping and for the advices...............Hey Beowulf ...take it easy....don't take it personally......and anyway what does "yahoo's like "mean???....just curious ...sometimes I really can't catch all slang.....sorry
> 
> 
> M



i would make as much money as you can and retire someday. the guy who walks around passing on jobs because its not the proper way will end up with alot less money in his pocket someday.

advising people of proper pruning techniques is good and sometimes works. but what people usually tell me is the tree is to tall or i dont want it to fall over on my house and dont want it removed can you make it smaller. or they flat out dont care if it dies or rots and they just dont wanna rake leaves.

we have people that top all thier trees almost yearly so they dont have to rake as many leaves? believe it.

the average joe thinks making the tree smaller has to be 100% safer than proper pruning or cableing.


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## himiler (Oct 5, 2010)

Neem
It's been said several different ways and all I'm doing is repeating.
You work for the guy, and he's your boss. You do what he says and you support him 100% unless it's a safety issue. If it's your job, your insurance, and your equipment, then you get to make the decisions. If not, then it's his decision. 
You are learning to master the *trade* of being an arborist. Once you start a business, you are a business owner that has a *business* as an arborist. Trust me, there is a *BIG* difference.
As an employee, I used to worry about how professional the job was even if it took a bit longer. As a business owner, I worry about how soon I can finish a job and still be responsible. 
As a business owner, win the job, get in, and get out.
As an employee, stay safe and stay honest.
Steve W.


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## Neem (Oct 5, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> advising people of proper pruning techniques is good and sometimes works. but what people usually tell me is the tree is to tall or i dont want it to fall over on my house and dont want it removed can you make it smaller. or they flat out dont care if it dies or rots and they just dont wanna rake leaves.
> 
> we have people that top all thier trees almost yearly so they dont have to rake as many leaves? believe it.
> 
> the average joe thinks making the tree smaller has to be 100% safer than proper pruning or cableing.



Same happening here. if I have the chance ( not possible all the times) I show them some previously topped trees in the neighborood and how they react and sometimes someone starts to think differently .....expecially if we are speaking about Birches and Cedars...the most topped trees around here

M


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## treemandan (Oct 6, 2010)

If the owners of the trees understand all involved and still want em topped them I just say " sometimes its easier with yer spikes on" but if the jobs are being sold by a guy who persuades the topping as good treatment I would have to let the cat out of the bag myself.


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## Neem (Oct 7, 2010)

treemandan said:


> If the owners of the trees understand all involved and still want em topped them I just say " sometimes its easier with yer spikes on" but if the jobs are being sold by a guy who persuades the topping as good treatment I would have to let the cat out of the bag myself.



:agree2:

M


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## fishercat (Oct 7, 2010)

*i always felt topping is a catch 22.*

I hate seeing it and try to not do it but I have.I like a previous poster try to educate the customer and talk them into removal instead.

Unfortunately with this economy,work isn't as plentiful as it once was and competition is fierce. If you refuse to do it,the customer will have no trouble finding someone who will.

Fortunately around here it is heavily frowned upon and I rarely get asked.down south is another story.its by no means a practice to be proud of.


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## derwoodii (Oct 9, 2010)

Your trying to do the best for your trees. After attending a 2009 lecture by Francesco Ferrini one of your countrys arborists, it seems newer methods of tree care in Italy are only just becoming accepted with many still pollarding and loppin. Bat on sport be patient. Rome was not built in day. 

http://www.maisonbotanique.com/dyn/2acte_10_ferrini.pdf

Pollarding in Italy
Pollarding has a long tradition in Italy : since the
most ancient times it has allowed multiple uses of
trees located on farmland or in pastures. Indeed,
one of the main uses of pollarded trees was to
provide grazing for domestic animals and, at the
same time, pollarded stands constantly supplied
stovewood for domestic consumption or wood


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## Neem (Oct 10, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Your trying to do the best for your trees. After attending a 2009 lecture by Francesco Ferrini one of your countrys arborists, it seems newer methods of tree care in Italy are only just becoming accepted with many still pollarding and loppin. Bat on sport be patient. Rome was not built in day.



Thanks Derwoodii, that was interesting. Been reading other articles by Ferrini , think he is still president of the italian section of Isa. Here there are not so many tree climbing companies, most are individual climbers who work on their own. Many gardener companies so take care of trees, the problem is that most of them are just ex-peasants (not everybody but most of them) turned into something else. You try to go askin them what photosyntesis is..or how a tree works, how it grows, produce its food,etc etc... .they will laugh at you ....so you can imagine what can be the result when these people are goin to prune a tree.
The other problem is that if this is the service that 90% of the companies offer ....99% of customers will ask for that....and for sure they will look at you as if you are crazy if you're charging them the right price for a pruning or a removal completely done in safety and as it should be done....."How?...Mr. Peasant said he 's coming with his ladder and chainsaw and doing same work for half of what you're asking...."
More or less this is is the situation but I don't complain...cause if you look the other side of the coin in these conditions it's much more easier that someone will start to notice you are working in a different way...and maybe start asking not to top their cedar but to clean it from deadwood...and so on...like domino effect...

M


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## lxt (Oct 11, 2010)

Matt, what you say is very true my man! however..alot of customers I have met with lately want their trees trimmed the right way, we live in & service basically the same area!

I see the upswing in proper tree care & have been preaching it for awhile, now many customers that passed on my service 2-3 years ago while their neighbors hired me....Now they`re hiring me, they like how the tree of their neighbors turned out & want the same, However.....that is a miracle I cant perform due to the damage done!

If topping is considered dropcrotching or cutting to laterals 1/3rd & pulling the ends in........then Ive done such myself.......but if it is defoliating the entire tree to a point that it looks like the sherill tree poster where the lil cartoon guy thinks it looks good (ala: hatrack) then NO......I wont do that!


LXT................


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