# Log splitter valve problems, once again



## Thunder (Aug 6, 2009)

Can you guys help out an old fossil like me? I have an older Huskee (speedco) 34 Ton with lack of power problem. After searching and reading up on it on this forum I decided to take a part the proportional valve to see if any was wrong with it. Well I took it apart and can't figure out how in the heck the one end goes back together (the end opposite the handle). Four small ball bearings (<1/8"), a spring and a one larger ball bearing (1/4") fell out of the cup/dust cover when I dissassembled it. I've tried several different configurations but none seem to work like the it did, slow return and/or return detent doesn't work. Any body know how this thing goes back together? It's a energy C1271 valve, tried looking on line for a schematic with no luck. BTW, still has low power, everything in the valve looked ok.

Thanks,

Thunder


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## Thunder (Aug 6, 2009)

Here's some pics of the valve


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## danrclem (Aug 6, 2009)

I can't help you but if you contact Speeco they may be able to email you a diagram.

http://www.speeco.com/


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## leon (Aug 6, 2009)

Thunder said:


> Can you guys help out an old fossil like me? I have an older Huskee (speedco) 34 Ton with lack of power problem. After searching and reading up on it on this forum I decided to take a part the proportional valve to see if any was wrong with it. Well I took it apart and can't figure out how in the heck the one end goes back together (the end opposite the handle). Four small ball bearings (<1/8"), a spring and a one larger ball bearing (1/4") fell out of the cup/dust cover when I dissassembled it. I've tried several different configurations but none seem to work like the it did, slow return and/or return detent doesn't work. Any body know how this thing goes back together? It's a energy C1271 valve, tried looking on line for a schematic with no luck. BTW, still has low power, everything in the valve looked ok.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Thunder


==============================================

The detent for the valve spool which is designed to hold the valve
spool to divert oil flow uses the 4 steel balls and spring pressure 
for a limited distance of travel to hold the spool in one postion 
being the work position being forward or return position to the 
fully retracted position.

Not knowing who built their valve prohibits me from detailing to you 
the complete repair solution- if you are having thse many problems 
as you stated you may need a new valve to replace that one.
the removal of the old valve and installing the new one will be easy to do.
==========================================================

If you have the paperwork that came with the splitter the valve should be 
fully illustrated.


What has happened is the detent balls-which are the four small ball bearings 
you mentioned have fallen out which they will do if the end cap and springs are
allowed to become separated-which is probably what occured due to excessive
wear or poor materials in the valve.

The detent balls hold the spool valve in place in either the forward and reverse
directions in which the cylinder travels.

As the valve is fully automatic the oil flow upon the cylinder stopping pushed the
valve spool back to the neutral open center position.


I would suggest obtaining a new valve simply based on your comments as the 
valve spool surfaces will wear sooner than the cylinder packing as a rule and 
oil will bypass quickly through a worn spool valve.


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## Thunder (Aug 6, 2009)

Well I figured it out and fire it back up and the detent work as before. Leon your right the 4 small ball bearings are forced into the detent in the sleeve by the spring and larger ball bearing. I don't know what I was thinking or maybe that was it I wasn't thinking. Anyways the non grooved sleeve goes on first then spring goes in hole, then the 4 small ball bearing go into the 4 small holes use grease to hold them in place. Put the larger ball bearing in the hole where the spring went, push the large ball bearing into the hole while sliding the grooved sleeve over the 4 small ball bearings. The two gooves in the sleeve should go to the rear/outside of the valve. If you don't do this the detent will be on the splitting / force side and not on the return side. That could be a problem to you hand. I used a 1/4" deep well socket with extension to help push the larger ball bearing back in the hole. I still have the low pressure / power problem. I guess I'll try to see what's going on with the pressure releif valve under the oil filter. I read a post on this from somebody that used to work at TSC and said it was a common problem. Wish I would of seen it before. THANKS TO ALL.

See ya,

Thunder


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## leon (Aug 6, 2009)

Thunder said:


> Well I figured it out and fire it back up and the detent work as before. Leon your right the 4 small ball bearings are forced into the detent in the sleeve by the spring and larger ball bearing. I don't know what I was thinking or maybe that was it I wasn't thinking. Anyways the non grooved sleeve goes on first then spring goes in hole, then the 4 small ball bearing go into the 4 small holes use grease to hold them in place. Put the larger ball bearing in the hole where the spring went, push the large ball bearing into the hole while sliding the grooved sleeve over the 4 small ball bearings. The two gooves in the sleeve should go to the rear/outside of the valve. If you don't do this the detent will be on the splitting / force side and not on the return side. That could be a problem to you hand. I used a 1/4" deep well socket with extension to help push the larger ball bearing back in the hole. I still have the low pressure / power problem. I guess I'll try to see what's going on with the pressure releif valve under the oil filter. I read a post on this from somebody that used to work at TSC and said it was a common problem. Wish I would of seen it before. THANKS TO ALL.
> 
> See ya,
> 
> Thunder



Hello Thunder,

before you do anything there are two things I would like you to doabout your splitter-

First please check the inlet suction screen if there is one-it would be at the end of the pump inlet line going into the tank-it may have a lot of junk clogging it, two please change the filter first if it has one.

Relief valves are very finicky as an eighth of an inch of movement to increase pressure can mean a thousand pounds of pressure if no gauge is used.

:yourock::agree2:


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## Mike Van (Aug 7, 2009)

Goog advise Leon -


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## Thunder (Aug 7, 2009)

Well, took the oil filther off and the base. There is a plastic plug and spring in the base, the spring appears to have ridden over the end of the plug. See pics. Don't how that would affect 2nd high pressure stage, will fix it though. Suction hose/pump inlet hose was ok. No screen in pump inlet. I'll put a new filter on and see what happens.

Thanks,

Guys


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## kevin j (Aug 7, 2009)

that is the filter bypass valve. should have nothing to do with your pump performance.

oil comes to outside of pleated element (or least it should be this direction). If the pressure difference between the sides of the element is more than typically 25 to 50 psi, the plastic valve opens and bypasses some flow around the element. This would happen with cold startup, or surges of flow say when retracting the cylinder.

There were earlier posts where the poster blew the filter can. It was either installed backwards out to in, (so the bypass would not work and the element pleats would fold the wrong way and block flow) or it had compressed air in the cylinder. When ported back to tank to return the rod, the compressed air blows out flow far in excess of pump rated flow, the filter and bypass are overwhelmed, and the can blew.

sometimes there are multiple slots on the plastic thing for settings of 15-25-35 psi etc. Don't quote the numbers, just illustration of several different possible bypass settings depending on elements.


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## Thunder (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks, Kevin J, That's sort of what I thought it was. Like your saying it has nothing to do with the High Pressure or lack of. I guess it's off to TSC and get a new filter to see what that does.

Thanks to all!


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## kevin j (Aug 7, 2009)

filter should not matter either. slight change in back pressure maybe. But it is a very good practice to change it just in case there is garbage moving around and causing the root problem.

Need a pressure gauge in the line between pump and control valve. 
I will bet the relief valve is dirty stuck rusted broken, etc. It shoudl be in the inlet section of the manual control valve (usually)


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## triptester (Aug 7, 2009)

There should be a relief adjustment on the valve. It will be on the return side of the valve on this style of valve. Remove the cap plug and adjust the internal screw. Proper adjustment requires a gauge before the valve.




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## triptester (Aug 7, 2009)

I'll try again on the pics
First pic is cap over RV adjustment

Second is of adjustment screw


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## Thunder (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks Triptester, Thats what I was looking for.

But I'll wait until I get a gauge before messing with it. Does that relief adjustment take a screwdriver or allen head? The overall problem with the splitter is that it doesn't feel like the 2nd stage High Pressure part of the pump is working or it's not sensing to kick into the high pressure mode. Hence, it stalls in any tough wood (wyes, bent or other such wood). It used to blast right thru anything. I also, don't hear the engine load up anymore like it use to when the 2nd stage high pressure used to kick in. What tells the pump to kick in to the 2nd stage high pressure? Is pressure relief valve or something in the pump? What kind of PSI should I see on the gauge for 1st and 2nd gauge.

Thanks, to everone.


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## leon (Aug 8, 2009)

*thunders log splitter*



Thunder said:


> Thanks Triptester, Thats what I was looking for.
> 
> But I'll wait until I get a gauge before messing with it. Does that relief adjustment take a screwdriver or allen head? The overall problem with the splitter is that it doesn't feel like the 2nd stage High Pressure part of the pump is working or it's not sensing to kick into the high pressure mode. Hence, it stalls in any tough wood (wyes, bent or other such wood). It used to blast right thru anything. I also, don't hear the engine load up anymore like it use to when the 2nd stage high pressure used to kick in. What tells the pump to kick in to the 2nd stage high pressure? Is pressure relief valve or something in the pump? What kind of PSI should I see on the gauge for 1st and 2nd gauge.
> 
> Thanks, to everone.




If I remember correctly the pump has a cartridge in the rear of the pump that has a bypass valve that diverts oil to the slower high pressure second stage thunder-sorry its been a while-all my equipment is open center hydraulic pumps etc.


I would chat with the folks at speeco and ask what to do as a two stage pump requires a bit of plumbing to tie in a guage-I would hate for you to have to change parts until and if you find the problem as you may end up having to have the cylinder repaired. Is there a hydraulic repair shop nearby where you live?

The 2 stage pump is an economy pump that is very usefull; but a Sperry Vickers vane pump with a separate high pressure relief valve to bypass fluid when necessary is also very good.


removing the cartridge is problematic as the spring may be shot too and the British standard pipe o ring will need to be replaced.

You may need a new pump after all thunder but I would not be able to tell you this unless the pump has been flow rated by a reliable hydraulic repair shop.

The two stage pump is the part of the log splitter that operates the most in your log splitter at high revolutions per minute and controls the cylinder speed and pressure through the two stage pump cartridge which also acts as a relief valve so to speak.

An hour spent at a hydraulic repair shop to test the cylinder for bypass and to flow rate the pump would be worth the hour of expense just for your piece of mind. 

does Speeco have a pump exchange program?

I apologise for not being much help to you thunder.

leon


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## triptester (Aug 8, 2009)

Thunder, on the valve I have a 1/4" allen wrench is used but some use a slotted screw driver.

A 2-stage pump is often misunderstood. It is actually two pumps in one, a 8 gpm and a 3 gpm , totaling 11 gpm. The 3 gpm section pumps all the time but the 8 gpm section stops pumping at a preset pressure usually 600 - 900 psi. These gallon numbers are approx. and will increase proportionally as pump rated gpms increase.

When working properly the splitter engine should never stall. As pressure increases first the large section of the pump stops, the small section continues, then when max. pressure setting is reached the relief valve in the control valve will open returning fluid to the tank. Through all these changes the engine may strain slightly but never stall.


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## Thunder (Aug 8, 2009)

Guys, Thanks for the info. 

Triptester, I may have misspoke. When I meant that the log splitter would stall a meant that hydraulic cylinder would stall in the wood, not the engine. When the 2nd stage pump was working the engine would strain a little bit more (engine sound would change).
But as you said before the engine should never stall and it never did, just that now the hydraulic cylinder will not have enough power to split things that were no problem before. 

Thanks again, I may have to wait till tomorrow to continue working on it, because it's raining like heck here.


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## ericjeeper (Aug 8, 2009)

*It sounds to me as if...*

You have blown the piston packing. And the fluid is bypassing the piston and returning to the tank. One messy way to test this is to run the cylinder out against a hard piece of wood,(one that will stall the cylinder) and shut it off. Now remove the return line and stick it into a bucket, Hold valve forward position and start pump while held forward. If oil flows into bucket. You have bad piston packing.If it does not, you have pump issues.Might also want to look for a sheared key on the love joy coupling.
Good luck


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## Thunder (Aug 10, 2009)

Well the hydraulic oil filter didn't make a difference, as we sort of suspected, but it was past due on it's change anyway. I did disconnect the return line to the tank with the cylinder stalled in wood and the control valve pressed as far forward as possible. Oil did come out of the return line at a steady rate, but it was only about 1/16" Diameter stream, 1/8" Dia. max. , it wasn't gushing out full bore by any means. Should I expect no oil at all or is that acceptable?

Thanks to all,

Thunder


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## leon (Aug 10, 2009)

Thunder said:


> Well the hydraulic oil filter didn't make a difference, as we sort of suspected, but it was past due on it's change anyway. I did disconnect the return line to the tank with the cylinder stalled in wood and the control valve pressed as far forward as possible. Oil did come out of the return line at a steady rate, but it was only about 1/16" Diameter stream, 1/8" Dia. max. , it wasn't gushing out full bore by any means. Should I expect no oil at all or is that acceptable?
> 
> Thanks to all,
> 
> Thunder



assuming the lovejoy coupling is not destroyed along with the engine shaft keyway-


three things come to mind immediately;

the valve spool is leaking oil around the spool and back to tank or

the cartridge in the rear of the pump is weak or leaking or 

the pump is shot.



A small vane pump delvering eight gallons per minute will work well and delver high pressures for you thunder and will last a very long time.


:yourock::chainsawguy:


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## kevin j (Aug 10, 2009)

I am still betting on relief valve or its setting.

Leaking spools or other locations have to pass a lot of flow before bringing the pressure down. 

Leakage at high pressure still loads the engine and you should hear it.
If the engine is not working as hard as it did, the flow and pressure are low.

If the bypass setting in the pump was too low, it still should go to full pressure on low speed in the small stage and have full splitting force. It would just unload sooner in the cycle. 

Your cylinder leakage rate sounds normal.

Need a gauge.


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## leon (Aug 10, 2009)

:food:


kevin j said:


> I am still betting on relief valve or its setting.
> 
> Leaking spools or other locations have to pass a lot of flow before bringing the pressure down.
> 
> ...



the pump needs to be flow rated to be sure the pump is not bypassing internally kevin, a guage will not indicate that unfortunately 

Kevin- I would feel better if he could disconnect the inlet and outlet lines
empty the oil out of the pump and set it on a pail with the inlet side up to check for wear this way; if he pours oil into the inlet of the pump the amount of oil coming out of the outlet-pressure side should be no more than the thickness of a standard no 2. pencil lead if the pumps gears and bronze thrust plates are not worn out in it.

leon


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## Thunder (Aug 11, 2009)

OK, Guys I installed a gauge (see pics). And with the cylinder deadheaded into the wood I am getting about 600 to 650 PSI. Let me know what you think. BTW, I couldn't find a bigger gauge (ROFL)

Thunder


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## leon (Aug 11, 2009)

*thunders log splitter*



Thunder said:


> OK, Guys I installed a gauge (see pics). And with the cylinder deadheaded into the wood I am getting about 600 to 650 PSI. Let me know what you think. BTW, I couldn't find a bigger gauge (ROFL)
> 
> Thunder




Hello Thunder,

take the pump and valve to a hydraulic repair shop to flow rate themit could be either the pump or the valve.

I know, I know, I know, until thats done we are throwing "Nerf" darts at a "Nerf dart board" with a blindfold in a room with no light and the door closed.

You need a test bench to test the valve and the pump now Thunder.

leon


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## kevin j (Aug 11, 2009)

leon agree 100%. in fact I just wrote quite a lot a bit earlier tonight on that same topic on another post, not replacing parts without understanding what the problem is. pressure isn't a gaurantee of good pump, and low pressure doesn't mean bad pump.
I would just stick a simple hedland flowmeter and relief valve in line and test the pump in 10 minutes, but i assume most people can't and won't do it. Most shops are cautious about running any used equipment on their test bench (possible contamination), and the cost of a shop test might be half the cost of the new pump.
So I am just throwing ideas that ahomeowner can do first before replacing pump or valves. But yes a flow pressure test of the pump would be the ideal choice. 

Lacking any equipment, I would still check the relief valve, then adjust it. Also since you got 600 psi,which is suspiciously (but maybe just coincidentally) close to the unloading setting of many pumps, I would pull the pump check valve (the flow out of the low pressure large side of the pump) out and inspect. If the check valve sticks open, the small high pressure side goes back into the low side at the unloader setting. Basically, it makes the unloading valve act exactly like a relief valve.
Your flow test is a good one. It can also be done by holding the inlet hose up, filled with oil, and seeing how fast it leaks out the other side.
Once the pump is off, I'd pull it apart and check before taking to a shop. If it is leaking 11 gpm at 600 psi the wear will be obvious. May save the shop fees, and learn a whole lot aobut pumps. Usually just a few allen or ferry head bolts to take it all apart. 

kcj


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## kevin j (Aug 13, 2009)

I have no edit button... what happened?
adding to my post above: another poster, another problem, found a sheared drive key from shaft to gear on the small section, high presure low flow gear, furthest from the engine. This would act just like the stuck check valve I described above. Only pilot signal to operate the unloader would come from the wrong gear set. The large section would pump but unload at some lower than normal system pressure, but act as a relief valve, maybe at several hundred psi instead of unloading totally at 50 psi or so.
not sure I even followed that myself. just check the gear set drive key inside if you open the pump. 

kcj


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## laynes69 (Aug 13, 2009)

On the inlet side of the pump, there is a cap. When you remove it you should see a slot. Thats your adjustment for your 1st and 2nd stage. I had your exact same problem, except for no pressure at all. I tore down my pump and found the key was sheared on the high side. I went to autozone, and ground and polished a new key and put it back together. What I was having after putting it back together, the engine would stall. I had the adjustment beside the suction side of the pump in too far, at around 600 it would stall. Remove that cap, and turn it out a little and see if that helps. You should be hitting 2nd stage around that psi. I think i'm hitting at 500psi, and I rarely use 2nd unless im in some knotty stuff. If you turn it down and it still won't move to a higher pressure, I would consider tearing it apart just for the peace of mind. You could also have something in the relief valve. My pumps probably 25+ years old and it still kicking strong, even after a key going through it. Don't know how it didn't damage the pump.


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## Thunder (Aug 14, 2009)

Good info guys. Here's the lastest, Removed the pressure relief spring, ball and screw at detent valve (the one with the handle on it). Took it apart and counldn't see anything wrong, rusted or damaged. So I put it back together and still got around 600 psi, so I tried cranking in the relief valve and it made no difference. I cranked it in all the way and still no difference in psi. I put it back to it's original position. Well I guess I'll take a look at the pump and some of the items on the pump you guys mentioned. Also, check out the lovejoy connection.

Thanks, to all

Thunder


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## Thunder (Aug 17, 2009)

Still don't know what's wrong. See pics of pump I took it apart and really can't see anything wrong with it. No scaring of gears/vanes or bores, nothing damaged. Don't know whats next.


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## leon (Aug 17, 2009)

*thunders log splitter*



Thunder said:


> Still don't know what's wrong. See pics of pump I took it apart and really can't see anything wrong with it. No scaring of gears/vanes or bores, nothing damaged. Don't know whats next.






========================================================


the fun part:


first;

take the gear set and put it both of them back in the roll bearings one end at a time and wiggle-should be no wiggle period.

second;

take the the gears and end gear housing and reinstall them- then use a good set oif feeler gauges to measure the distance between the gear tooth and the inside of the housing-meaning the flat edge of the gear tooth and the housing-let us know how much distance there is-there should almost no space as the gear pushes oil from the inlet to the outlet

The rule of thumb for gear pumps and motors is this-

a good pump or motor will require the use of a pipe wrench to turn the shaft.


if the pump is bad it will show up here with a gap between the end of the gear tooth and the gear housing = doomed.


judging by the condition of the roll bearings that I saw in you excellent photos I think its time for a new pump-the ends of the hear housings should not have the gouges I see there as the end plates supporting the bearing should be smooth and not gouged like that.

The other item is that the small pumps have highly machined surfaces that seal the oil and do not require bronze wear plates pocket seals and o-rings-you probably noticed it took very little effort to loosen the pump housing.


I would say it is time bid this pump goodby thunder and buy a small vickers vane pump v10-20 with a relief valve plumbed to tank.


vane pumps are very capable to run at high rpm and are more forgiving 
as far as trash and are very good at running at cold temeperatures and heat up the oil faster. 
 
I will post a few links for small vane pumps on the forum here. 




more close ups of the bearings and end housings will confirm this.


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## kevin j (Aug 18, 2009)

the last pic with the end plate does not look good. leon covered the clearance checks. Was there any end loading on the shaft or coupling?

do you by chance have a known good small hydr motor that could be used as a 'flow meter' by watching speed? Just running the flow through the motor, then to the manual control valve with relief valve, would work as a very crude test. If the motor spins the flow is going across relief or cylinder seals. If the motor stops, it is all pump leakage. Not an accurate test of pump percentage of leakage, but in this case it may be 0% efficient at 600 psi. Way more often it is relief valve issues, but given the pic with end plate wear, that may be the answer. 

If you change pumps I would NOT go with single stage pump. Gear or vane doesn't matter, but you are giving up much speed with single stage. The single stage pump is equal to the small section of a two stage. Both are sized by engine hp at maximum psi. The single stage is fixed at that flow regardless of load. The tow stage can add back the larger section and is much faster at lower pressures. More speed. Search back threads for many discussions/arguments!


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## Thunder (Aug 18, 2009)

OK, guys. I'll take a closer look and maybe some measurements. Maybe somemore close ups of the pump also. 

Thanks again,

Thunder


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## leon (Aug 18, 2009)

*thunders log splitter*



kevin j said:


> the last pic with the end plate does not look good. leon covered the clearance checks. Was there any end loading on the shaft or coupling?
> 
> do you by chance have a known good small hydr motor that could be used as a 'flow meter' by watching speed? Just running the flow through the motor, then to the manual control valve with relief valve, would work as a very crude test. If the motor spins the flow is going across relief or cylinder seals. If the motor stops, it is all pump leakage. Not an accurate test of pump percentage of leakage, but in this case it may be 0% efficient at 600 psi. Way more often it is relief valve issues, but given the pic with end plate wear, that may be the answer.
> 
> If you change pumps I would NOT go with single stage pump. Gear or vane doesn't matter, but you are giving up much speed with single stage. The single stage pump is equal to the small section of a two stage. Both are sized by engine hp at maximum psi. The single stage is fixed at that flow regardless of load. The tow stage can add back the larger section and is much faster at lower pressures. More speed. Search back threads for many discussions/arguments!




Kevin

the reason I suggested the Vickers vane pump is simply because it will run at the high RPM speeds of the engine much better than the gear pumps and will work very well with a 2000 psi plus relief valve and the fluid flow to the cylinder will be excellent


The vickers vane pumps cartridges are interchangeable and will be able to pump more oil if desired and the plumbing and reservoir can handle the load.


All hydraulic pumps are rated at 1200 RPM at one hundred psi by all manufacturers for initial values.


The quality and power of vickers pumps is something i can verify as they were a main pump for us at the mine where I worked for 22 years.


leon


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## kevin j (Aug 18, 2009)

agree there, the old V and VQ go on forever. also pretty quiet. Easy to change out a cartridge without removing the pump from the line, and the in & out ports can be reoriented very easily.

the 1200 rpm rating on flow is a peculiarly Vickers thing to define the numbers of their vane cartridges. (V20 was 20 gpm at 1200 rpm for instance) I think it came from the early days when most industrial applications ran 1200 rpm motors. Many still do because of noise (both amount of noise and a different frequency that makes it appear much quieter).

no issues with their quality, just that a single stage pump wastes time and doesn't use all of the engine hp anytime it is less than maximum pressure. The two stage allows using the power for higher flows at lower pressure.
Unless there is so much engine hp that more speed is not necessary, I'd never build another single stage system.
That's the only reason for my comment to avoid the vane pumps.

A double section vane pump with external unloading valve would be a nice package as it would allow picking displacements to match the application, not being stuck with the common 1+3 displacement ratios.

kcj


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## laynes69 (Aug 18, 2009)

Did you try adjusting the unloading pressure on the pump before removing it? Mine wouldn't kick into high pressure, because the screw was turned in too much. I had to back mine out, and then it was taken care of.


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## Thunder (Sep 5, 2009)

*Another Great Speeco customer service story*

It's fixed, guess what happened. Carolyn Reyes of Speeco sent me a PM about my problems of low power / pressure on my Huskee 35 Ton log splitter. She sent me manuals of the pump and detent valve. That was very helpful. Sent her the pics of the pump and she forwarded them to the engineering dept. Carolyn said the engineers couldn't see anything wrong right away, but they are sending a new pump and suction hose. Well I thought this is great! The pump and hose arrived about a week later. I finally had time to install the today. I now get 1,500 PSI instead of 600 PSI. The pump costs $ 200 at TSC, the logsplitter is about 8 years old and way past warranty. This comes at great time since we have no extra money right now. I had to take 6 weeks off upaid this due the economy, I live in Michigan so I don't need to say anymore. A great big thanks to Carolyn Reyes and Speeco. Thanks, from my family and myself. Now it's back to splitt'n some wood.

See Ya, Thunder


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## Mike Van (Sep 5, 2009)

Nice people there!


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