# Two-Stroke Oils: All the Same?



## Paul Bunions (Oct 12, 2022)

I plan to get a big container of oil for my 2-stroke engines. Does it really matter which brand I get? More importantly, are there brands I should avoid?


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 12, 2022)

Wooh boy, here we go.


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## skeet88 (Oct 12, 2022)

Just going to sit back and watch!


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## sean donato (Oct 12, 2022)

Ugg, oil thread. Well here goes.
There are a ton of good oils out there. There are also a ton of opinions. Here's my take, buy a reputable brand. I'm a synthetic/semi synthetic fan, but plenty of good mineral oils out there. Run away from stihl hp ultra. It's junk. Most will agree. I was running klotz super techniplate, that gallon is about gone and got some redmax oil that I'll be using next.


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## Backstage (Oct 12, 2022)

WTF. Stihl HP Ultra is good stuff. I use it to lubricate pistons when installing. Works great!

Running it in fuel, no. It’s not for that.


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## Lightning Performance (Oct 12, 2022)

They must all be the same with different colored dye added.


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## sean donato (Oct 12, 2022)

Backstage said:


> WTF. Stihl HP Ultra is good stuff. I use it to lubricate pistons when installing. Works great!
> 
> Running it in fuel, no. It’s not for that.


Wouldn't even use it for that...


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## ballisticdoughnut (Oct 12, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Wooh boy, here we go.


Ahh you beat me to it. I’m gonna go grab a cold one.


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## sean donato (Oct 12, 2022)

Come on guys. Let's here it from the 100 to 1 crowd....


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## skeet88 (Oct 12, 2022)

I’m more of a 50-1 person.I have used a little of every kind,parts store brand,Poulan, and currently using some Lucas brand.The main thing I try to do is mix it good and a little on the heavy side.


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## skeet88 (Oct 12, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> I plan to get a big container of oil for my 2-stroke engines. Does it really matter which brand I get? More importantly, are there brands I should avoid?


Are you talking about just chainsaws, string trimmers and yard equipment? Or does it include boats and recreation vehicles? I’m not sure but I don’t think the kind for a boat is recommended for a chainsaw.


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## Paul Bunions (Oct 12, 2022)

Thanks for the replies. Didn't know I was poking a sore spot.

I ordered Echo armor-something. It was cheaper than the stuff at Tractor Supply, and I didn't have to get in the car. I figured Echo ought to be able to make an oil that works.


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## tfp (Oct 12, 2022)

We need a ring and a whole heap of pairs of gloves. Royal rumble. Last man standing has the final word on which oil is best.

For bar oil, we'll arm wrestle.

I can't read another 65 page thread to decide.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 12, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> Thanks for the replies. Didn't know I was poking a sore spot.
> 
> I ordered Echo armor-something. It was cheaper than the stuff at Tractor Supply, and I didn't have to get in the car. I figured Echo ought to be able to make an oil that works.




Great choice. Echo Red Armor is possibly the best you could have chosen.

I'd be fine running any JASO FD oil, as long as we're talking air cooled equipment.


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## owtlaw (Oct 12, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> Thanks for the replies. Didn't know I was poking a sore spot.
> 
> I ordered Echo armor-something. It was cheaper than the stuff at Tractor Supply, and I didn't have to get in the car. I figured Echo ought to be able to make an oil that works.


Red armor is great stuff.


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## farfromiowa (Oct 12, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> Thanks for the replies. Didn't know I was poking a sore spot.
> 
> I ordered Echo armor-something. It was cheaper than the stuff at Tractor Supply, and I didn't have to get in the car. I figured Echo ought to be able to make an oil that works.


Echo Red Armor is my choice. Been using it for years.


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## MacAttack (Oct 12, 2022)

I've had great results with Echo Power Blend, think I'll try Red Armor next. I mix 40:1 for everything.


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## anlrolfe (Oct 13, 2022)

Lost of places clear out their sporting goods, marine and water sports with deep discounts on outboard motor oil.
Make sure the oil is for AIR cooled and NOT water cooled engines.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 13, 2022)

My advice, DONT STEP FOOT DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE!!!

Find something from a reputable supplier that’s within your budget and designed for air cooled engines and stick with it, mix at 32:1 and forget everything and anything else oil related - MOVE ON!! Forget ratings, mineral vs synthetic vs semi synthetic, flash points, etc. stay away from Stihl oils.

Castrol, Amsoil, Echo, Yamaha, all good stuff it seems.

Edit, just seen you brought red armour, fantastic, stick with it and forget everything else even exists.


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## Squareground3691 (Oct 13, 2022)

Several years , no issues


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## anlrolfe (Oct 13, 2022)

For oil injection systems?


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## sand sock (Oct 13, 2022)

i like stihl 2 mix oil, never had a problem yet. i like the orange bottle, so i can find it on my shelf in the shop. i've even used husky brand.. i always short that last little bit of gas out of the pump. 1/10th of a gallon. 2.5 gal mix, makes 2.499 gals. then i always shake the gas can, making sure it is mixed. most important thing is it causes cancer in california. i dont know how it gets from ohio to cali, but trust the label. 50:1


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## mojo jojo (Oct 13, 2022)

I am pretty sure, that not one chainsaw manufacturer produce 2-stroke oil or develope it.
As long as it`s not counterfit and original packed it`s all good(enough).


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## sand sock (Oct 13, 2022)

mojo jojo said:


> I am pretty sure, that not one chainsaw manufacturer produce 2-stroke oil or develope it.
> As long as it`s not counterfit and original packed it`s all good(enough).



castrol makes stihl


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## Ethobling (Oct 13, 2022)

There was a test someone on another forum did on different 2-stroke oils and their qualities. From what I've heard, Echo Red Armor and Amsoil Dominator came out on top of the rest.

Echo Red Armor is one of the best. *Anything JASO FD certified is going to be good.* Amsoil Dominator is possibly the best option, but there was some reason I decided not to settle on it. 

Ah, I think I remember...

Amsoil Dominator doesn't have a fuel stabilizer. Not too big of a deal, but having a stabilizer is nice.

*Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.* The conversation was a while ago.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

There was also that thing with them refusing to warranty engines that ran their 100 to 1 ratio and blew up a few years ago.


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## echomeister (Oct 13, 2022)

Keep calm and ( red armour 40:1 ) on......


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## huskihl (Oct 13, 2022)

sand sock said:


> castrol makes stihl


Not in the US


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## Ethobling (Oct 13, 2022)

I would lean away from Stihl Ultra. From what I've seen, it leaves too many deposits/doesn't burn as clean.

Coming from someone who bought a gallon of the stuff before I learned. I'll be using that gallon for a while until I can switch to Red Armor.


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## mark3885 (Oct 13, 2022)

Any quality synthetic 2 stroke oil mixed at 40:1 and non ethanol gasoline.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> I would lean away from Stihl Ultra. From what I've seen, it leaves too many deposits/doesn't burn as clean.
> 
> Coming from someone who bought a gallon of the stuff before I learned. I'll be using that gallon for a while until I can switch to Red Armor.


Use it to start fires... College is expensive. That oil was a cheap lesson.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 13, 2022)

More important than which oil you choose, is learning to tune your saw properly. Plenty more saws are killed by a bad tune, than are killed by running the wrong two stroke oil. Lots of videos on YT.


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## Ethobling (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Use it to start fires... College is expensive. That oil wad a cheap lesson.


I hear you. I figure it won't do too much damage to my saws, especially since it is spread across 5 saws. 

I'm tempted to try to sell it, though.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> I hear you. I figure it won't do too much damage to my saws, especially since it is spread across 5 saws.
> 
> I'm tempted to try to sell it, though.


I gave the 6 pack I got with the 400 away to a guy I work with. He thought i was daft when I said I bought it for the extended warranty and had no intentions of using it. He even tried to pay me for it. I'm sure someone will see the shiny silver bottle at a yard sale and get their wallet out.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> I gave the 6 pack I got with the 400 away to a guy I work with. He thought i was daft when I said I bought it for the extended warranty and had no intentions of using it. He even tried to pay me for it. I'm sure someone will see the shiny silver bottle at a yard sale and get their wallet out.




I dumped the out the Stihl Ultra the dealer filled my 500i with when I got home. Didn't even run that one tank.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

I suffered through it. Paid a lot for that gas, the saw just came with it.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 13, 2022)

I dumped mine in the truck. Wasn't going to waste it either!


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## freeasaburt (Oct 13, 2022)

Not to add 'fuel to the fire', but what is wrong with Stihl HP ULtra? Have been running it for years 1:50 or a bit richer, mainly in my 2 026's. Seems to burn quite cleanly...
If I'm not mistaken, it's also the oil they use in their 'Motomix' 2-stroke alkylate fuel.


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## Ethobling (Oct 13, 2022)

freeasaburt said:


> Not to add 'fuel to the fire', but what is wrong with Stihl HP ULtra? Have been running it for years 1:50 or a bit richer, mainly in my 2 026's. Seems to burn quite cleanly...
> If I'm not mistaken, it's also the oil they use in their 'Motomix' 2-stroke alkylate fuel.


I know it smokes a lot in my saws, especially in my trimmer. 

I don't really think any name brand oil is going to destroy a saw in any reasonable amount of time. It's more about the small amounts of wear and tear over years of use that accumulate to the loss of a saw earlier than if you used a higher quality oil.


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## Tomos770 (Oct 13, 2022)

anlrolfe said:


> For oil injection systems?


No!


2stroke oils are usually in sae30 or sae40 viscosity.....sae40 is as high as you can get away with an oil injection system....

Anything higher then sae40 is pre-Mix only!


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

freeasaburt said:


> Not to add 'fuel to the fire', but what is wrong with Stihl HP ULtra? Have been running it for years 1:50 or a bit richer, mainly in my 2 026's. Seems to burn quite cleanly...
> If I'm not mistaken, it's also the oil they use in their 'Motomix' 2-stroke alkylate fuel.


Take a look down your spark plug or take off the muffler. It leaves a lot of carbon.

I’m willing to grant the possibility that if you’re using it at high temps constantly, like for a chainsaw mill or high volume logging, it would burn a bit cleaner. Even for that though, it’s not what it should be.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Come on guys. Let's here it from the 100 to 1 crowd....


I’ll bite!

Trying Amsoil saber at that ratio this year. Obviously no results to report yet, but there’s more than a few folks who are running this way.

The saw manufacturer specifies an oil ratio based on a combination of the EPA requirements and what they have to assume is the worst oil saws are likely to see, and assuming people are going to run lean (ie: not fulling pouring the bottle out, so, say, 60:1).

Decades past, saw makers needed to specify running richer ratios because the oil sucked, less data was available on what would ruin a saw or how to build a saw, and tolerances were less exact.

So all that boils down to: follow the directions on the BOTTLE, not on the SAW.
Stihl/Husky/Echo etc CAN’T put 100:1 on their saw because they know everyone is not going to be using amsoil or similar products. Similarly, Stihl/Husky oil says 50:1 because you CAN’T run 100:1 with that product without ruining your saw.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> Take a look down your spark plug or take off the muffler. It leaves a lot of carbon.
> 
> I’m willing to grant the possibility that if you’re using it at high temps constantly, like for a chainsaw mill or high volume logging, it would burn a bit cleaner. Even for that though, it’s not what it should be.


Actually high temps would make it worst in all likelihood.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Any oil that's actually Jaso FC or FD certified is going to work very well in your equipment. If it's not actually certified you are rolling the dice/guessing.

Echo Red Armor is very good oil.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Actually high temps would make it worst in all likelihood.


I would have assumed that not running cool and limited idle time would burn cleaner?


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> I’ll bite!
> 
> Trying Amsoil saber at that ratio this year. Obviously no results to report yet, but there’s more than a few folks who are running this way.
> 
> ...


What is the advantage to using less oil in a marginally lubricated motor?
The EPA has no requirements on mix ratios. They set exhaust emmissions. Two stroke oil contributes minimally to exhaust emmissions.
Oil ratios are set by the manufacturers not based on optimal engine life, but on things like spark plug life with poor tuning, visible smoke with poor tuning etc.


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## SimonHS (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> I’ll bite!
> 
> Trying Amsoil saber at that ratio this year. Obviously no results to report yet, but there’s more than a few folks who are running this way.
> 
> ...



It will be interesting to see how you get on. Please give us a report now and again. What saws are you running it in?


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> I would have assumed that not running cool and limited idle time would burn cleaner?


The problem with ultra and all ashless dispersent type oils is the dispersent only functions up to about 300 degrees. After that its completely useless. As such running the engine hotter only makes things worse. Running cool/rich typically dirty the exhaust port and muffler, but the piston remains clean.
Conversely low ash, Jaso FC/FD oils use mettalic based detergents that function well above 300 degrees.
Ashless oils can be identified easily by smelling them. The ashless dispersent is a nitrogen based amine and they stink.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

SimonHS said:


> It will be interesting to see how you get on. Please give us a report now and again. What saws are you running it in?


Give me a few years. Nothing worse than “unboxing reviews”. 

However, I’ll probably take some muffler/cylinder temperatures with Stihl ultra vs the amsoil during cutting this year.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> Give me a few years. Nothing worse than “unboxing reviews”.
> 
> However, I’ll probably take some muffler/cylinder temperatures with Stihl ultra vs the amsoil during cutting this year.


There are so many variables that effect muffler temp readings that's it's really not of much value.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What is the advantage to using less oil in a marginally lubricated motor?
> The EPA has no requirements on mix ratios. They set exhaust emmissions. Two stroke oil contributes minimally to exhaust emmissions.
> Oil ratios are set by the manufacturers not based on optimal engine life, but on things like spark plug life with poor tuning, visible smoke with poor tuning etc.


I don’t claim to be an expert here, just what I’ve seen of other people‘s findings and claims. So feel free to join that group and correct me where I’m off course. 

More fuel in the engine vs less oil without sacrificing lubrication? That means cleaner burning, less carbon, less gunk, longer engine life, etc. Also, the oil is burning hotter and slower than the gas. Hotter cylinder, less available power. 

Some guys are interested in saving $1/gallon because they can use half the oil, but that’s not my interest at the volume I’m operating at. 

In all honesty, I’ll most likely do some testing with the IR thermometer and noodling around for a few tankfuls at the 100:1, then jump back to the amsoil alternate 80:1 recommendation, do some more noodling and testing, etc.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> There are so many variables that effect muffler temp readings that's it's really not of much value.


Agreed, it’s a single data point, not a conclusive, comprehensive test. The comprehensive test will be pulling the cylinder after several years.

I’ve seen the videos where they fail to adjust for tuning whatsoever and introduce that as a variable, so I’ll be playing with this on an autotune saw.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> I don’t claim to be an expert here, just what I’ve seen of other people‘s findings and claims. So feel free to join that group and correct me where I’m off course.
> 
> More fuel in the engine vs less oil without sacrificing lubrication? That means cleaner burning, less carbon, less gunk, longer engine life, etc. Also, the oil is burning hotter and slower than the gas. Hotter cylinder, less available power.
> 
> ...


The amount of fuel passing through the engine does not change with mix ratio assuming your tuned properly. The oil in a two stroke is deposited in the crankcase when the liquid fuel flashes to vapor. The oil then migrates up into the combustion chamber where it coats the surface of the piston ETC as it's still a liquid. When the spark plug fires the fuel in vapor form begins to combust. The heat from this combustion then flashes the oil to vapor where it is then burnt. It may burn slightly hotter than gasoline as it has more BTU's based on its density. But these imcreased BTU's also contribute to moving the piston. Combustion characteristics of good oil doesn't inhibit combustion.
Carbon,gunk etc, comes from the oil type and tuning, not the ratio. Engines tuned well running at something like 20:1 with the proper oil are very clean internally IME. Why wouldn't they be? You are passing more detergents through the engine. Further more much of the deposits formed in a two stroke come from the terrible quality gasoline we have in the US and Canada.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

One thing to consider with 100:1 oils. They leave less residual oil to protect your motor from corrosion. They are also typicly ester based oils which have lousy corrosion protection properties to begin with. On top of that less residual oil leads to more wear at startup when Hou have alot of liquid fuel wiping oil off the engines internal surfaces.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The amount of fuel passing through the engine does not change with mix ratio assuming your tuned properly. The oil in a two stroke is deposited in the crankcase when the liquid fuel flashes to vapor. The oil then migrates up into the combustion chamber where it coats the surface of the piston ETC as it's still a liquid. When the spark plug fires the fuel in vapor form begins to combust. The heat from this combustion then flashes the oil to vapor where it is then burnt. It may burn slightly hotter than gasoline as it has more BTU's based on its density. But these imcreased BTU's also contribute to moving the piston. Combustion characteristics of good oil doesn't inhibit combustion.
> Carbon,gunk etc, comes from the oil type and tuning, not the ratio. Engines tuned well running at something like 20:1 with the proper oil are very clean internally IME. Why wouldn't they be? You are passing more detergents through the engine. Further more much of the deposits formed in a two stroke come from the terrible quality gasoline we have in the US and Canada.


To add to this thought. I'm big into 1/5 scale rc. 2 stroke powered to be more exact. 25 to 1 is considered a standard ratio. The engines are a good bit more high performance then our saws, however even at the higher mix ratios its rare to see an engine in good tune carbon up internally with a decent oil. Does seem there is a lot of oil that migrates out into the pipe though. The pure castor guys complain a lot about Carbon build up. 
I'm lazy and run the same 40 to 1 mix in my rc engines that I run in my saws. Thought i had pictures of my little g320 zen when I tore it down for port work. At the time it had a little over 20 gallons through it, and looked like new internally.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The amount of fuel passing through the engine does not change with mix ratio assuming your tuned properly.


Agreed, mostly. Your tune will NEED to go slightly richer for a 10:1 (ad absurdum example) because you’re introducing less burnable fuel into the engine per stroke.



bwalker said:


> Carbon,gunk etc, comes from the oil type and tuning, not the ratio. Engines tuned well running at something like 20:1 with the proper oil are very clean internally IME. Why wouldn't they be? You are passing more detergents through the engine. Further more much of the deposits formed in a two stroke come from the terrible quality gasoline we have in the US and Canada.


Correct assuming good tuning and quality oil, and completely agreed. Until you hit the spark arrestor. Cooled, partially partially burned oil hitting a metal mesh surface creates predictable results. I know, just clean your #$%& spark arrestor once in awhile, no problem.

That slower burn of the oil should also have some effect on the timing itself. Faster burn…equals an advance? Having trouble visualizing the run right now, but I think that’s right. Probably a small change either way.

Also agreed on the terrible quality fuel as well. I’ve even seen problems from the canned premix stuff.

From the results people are having with the saber oil, it’s actually doing as good if not better job leaving a coating than the traditional mix oils. Another thing to monitor in actual use. I’ll be pulling muffler and checking the saw cold.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

I've been told the addition of the oil lessens the octane rating of the gas, but I have no way to confirm this and have no idea if it's just an old wife's tale.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> To add to this thought. I'm big into 1/5 scale rc. 2 stroke powered to be more exact. 25 to 1 is considered a standard ratio. The engines are a good bit more high performance then our saws, however even at the higher mix ratios its rare to see an engine in good tune carbon up internally with a decent oil. Does seem there is a lot of oil that migrates out into the pipe though. The pure castor guys complain a lot about Carbon build up.
> I'm lazy and run the same 40 to 1 mix in my rc engines that I run in my saws. Thought i had pictures of my little g320 zen when I tore it down for port work. At the time it had a little over 20 gallons through it, and looked like new internally.


Sean, you are running those on alky though, right?


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> Agreed, mostly. Your tune will NEED to go slightly richer for a 10:1 (ad absurdum example) because you’re introducing less burnable fuel into the engine per stroke.
> 
> 
> Correct assuming good tuning and quality oil, and completely agreed. Until you hit the spark arrestor. Cooled, partially partially burned oil hitting a metal mesh surface creates predictable results. I know, just clean your #$%& spark arrestor once in awhile, no problem.
> ...


I've never, ever had to clean a spark arrestor screen running 32:1. If you do it's a tuning issue or a oil quality issue.
You are assuming oil burns slower. It may or may not. A good oil does not effect the combustion process at all at all.
Residual is mostly a product of how much oil is in your mix. I say mostly because Red Armor oil for some reason unknown to me really coats the engine internals even at 50:1. Indont have an answer as to why.
I did run some Saber at 50:1 years back and didn't notice any more residual than I would expect for the ratio.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> I've been told the addition of the oil lessens the octane rating of the gas, but I have no way to confirm this and have no idea if it's just an old wife's tale.


It may or may not. Honda HP2 uses Cumene as a diluent so it likely boosts octane.
Regardless, Octane is of no consequence to a chainsaw as they have pathetically low compression ratios.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> Agreed, mostly. Your tune will NEED to go slightly richer for a 10:1 (ad absurdum example) because you’re introducing less burnable fuel into the engine per stroke.
> 
> 
> Correct assuming good tuning and quality oil, and completely agreed. Until you hit the spark arrestor. Cooled, partially partially burned oil hitting a metal mesh surface creates predictable results. I know, just clean your #$%& spark arrestor once in awhile, no problem.
> ...


One last thing. I trust very few peoples testimonials on oil quality. Most guys are so ignorant of what to look for, what they are actually seeing and what causes what they are seeing that their opinions are useless.
An example is the guys that uses Brand X super synthetic oil, pulls his motor apart after 5 hours of run time and the piston is bare metal. The guys then get on the internet and claim Brand X is the best and perfectly clean. The problem is a bare metal piston just proves they guy can't tune a carb to save his life and has nothing to do with oil.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Sean, you are running those on alky though, right?


No running them on high test. The smaller scale glow engines run on a nitro/methanol mix. They were one weedwhacker engines back in the day. Now they are purpose built for rc use. These are the 2 1/5 scale models I currently have. The pic with my daughter is the 5ive t. 32cc zen based engine. The other chassis with the solid axles is a kraken vekta .5 34cc zen based engine.


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## Backstage (Oct 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> An example is the guys that uses Brand X super synthetic oil, pulls his motor apart after 5 hours of run time and the piston is bare metal. The guys then get on the internet and claim Brand X is the best and perfectly clean. The problem is a bare metal piston just proves they guy can't tune a carb to save his life and has nothing to do with oil.


Yeah, I’ve seen the youtube guy who’s getting a ton of likes trashing sthil hp, possibly the most recent example of that. I don’t doubt either that what he’s seeing is real, but as you say, there’s a lot going on there.

As I see it, an auto tune saw is the only way to play these on the same field.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Backstage said:


> Yeah, I’ve seen the youtube guy who’s getting a ton of likes trashing sthil hp, possibly the most recent example of that. I don’t doubt either that what he’s seeing is real, but as you say, there’s a lot going on there.
> 
> As I see it, an auto tune saw is the only way to play these on the same field.


Well Stihl HP isn't great oil...but, yea there is alot to consider and so many variable that back yard testing for you tube while somewhat entertaining is complete garbage.


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## Mike Acres (Oct 13, 2022)

Squareground3691 said:


> Several years , no issues


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## Mike Acres (Oct 13, 2022)

The answer is to run ASPEN 2 Professional Fuel in anything air cooled two stroke. It is alkylate fuel mixed with a fantastic synthetic oil they make themselves. There is no smoke created, less environmental pollution, it is the best for the engine and there are no cancer causing agents in the exhaust. It has been used in Europe for over 35 years, was promoted in the beginning by Husqvarna and you will never loose an engine if the carb is set properly. You will not die of cancer either.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

Mike Acres said:


> The answer is to run ASPEN 2 Professional Fuel in anything air cooled two stroke. It is alkylate fuel mixed with a fantastic synthetic oil they make themselves. There is no smoke created, less environmental pollution, it is the best for the engine and there are no cancer causing agents in the exhaust. It has been used in Europe for over 35 years, was promoted in the beginning by Husqvarna and you will never loose an engine if the carb is set properly. You will not die of cancer either.


I've never seen it for sale. Have seen other brand canned fuels and IMO they are to expensive for what they are.


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## Dennisthemenace (Oct 13, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> My advice, DONT STEP FOOT DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE!!!
> 
> Find something from a reputable supplier that’s within your budget and designed for air cooled engines and stick with it, mix at 32:1 and forget everything and anything else oil related - MOVE ON!! Forget ratings, mineral vs synthetic vs semi synthetic, flash points, etc. stay away from Stihl oils.
> 
> ...


Have you found a supplier of Red Armor in Aus Tom? It is too expensive to import nowadays


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

Mike Acres said:


> The answer is to run ASPEN 2 Professional Fuel in anything air cooled two stroke. It is alkylate fuel mixed with a fantastic synthetic oil they make themselves. There is no smoke created, less environmental pollution, it is the best for the engine and there are no cancer causing agents in the exhaust. It has been used in Europe for over 35 years, was promoted in the beginning by Husqvarna and you will never loose an engine if the carb is set properly. You will not die of cancer either.


The cost alone doesn't make sense if you go through any amount of fuel. Last I looked a gallon of vp44 50 to 1 was close to $27.00. Gallon of e-free gas is around $5.00 gal, regular high test is pushing $4.00 gal. Just this past weekend I went through 2 gallons of fuel in the 400cm and 192tc. That was just bucking logs that I had piled up for splitting. Once I get started at the neighbors house it will be a lot more the 2 gallons of fuel.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> The cost alone doesn't make sense if you go through any amount of fuel. Last I looked a gallon of vp44 50 to 1 was close to $27.00. Gallon of e-free gas is around $5.00 gal, regular high test is pushing $4.00 gal. Just this past weekend I went through 2 gallons of fuel in the 400cm and 192tc. That was just bucking logs that I had piled up for splitting. Once I get started at the neighbors house it will be a lot more the 2 gallons of fuel.


That's exactly it.
That and I know what it costs to make a gallon of alkylate. It's not near $27 per gallon. In fact it's under $5 a gallon.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 13, 2022)

Dennisthemenace said:


> Have you found a supplier of Red Armor in Aus Tom? It is too expensive to import nowadays


Hey Dennis, I haven’t sadly mate, have you?


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

Im pretty sure the husqy xp+, red armor, and rexmax oil are all the same thing.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Im pretty sure the husqy xp+, red armor, and rexmax oil are all the same thing.


They are for certain not.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 13, 2022)

Redmax and XP+ might be the same, Redmax oil says Husqvarna right on the jug. Red Armor is different.


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## sean donato (Oct 13, 2022)

Thought there was a third oil that was the same as the hp+ and redmax? I was fairly certain that Phillips 66 was the manufacturer of both (all 3) oils. I have seen the msds cheet for the red armor, and was fairly sure Phillips 66 Bought out the company that made the husqy/redmax oil.


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## bucketofguts (Oct 13, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> I plan to get a big container of oil for my 2-stroke engines. Does it really matter which brand I get? More importantly, are there brands I should avoid?


There just a few producers of oil and they make all the oil synthetic and dinosaur. Drink someones cool-aid and call it good. Same for gas. Use a quality product that smells good. I have used many over 40 years and have never had a issue. Snake oil is very high $ now days. Maybe run them a little fat. And like my builder says You can't just crank it up and go racing. You got to tune it.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Redmax and XP+ might be the same, Redmax oil says Husqvarna right on the jug. Red Armor is different.


The last time I looked at the MSDS for Redmax and XP+ they were not the same and Red Armor is different as well.


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## bwalker (Oct 13, 2022)

bucketofguts said:


> There just a few producers of oil and they make all the oil synthetic and dinosaur. Drink someones cool-aid and call it good. Same for gas. Use a quality product that smells good. I have used many over 40 years and have never had a issue. Snake oil is very high $ now days. Maybe run them a little fat. And like my builder says You can't just crank it up and go racing. You got to tune it.


Just because a few companies(more like a half dozen) doesn't mean they are all the same. Phillips 66 has great track record of producing oil for many oems and they are all different.


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## snobdds (Oct 14, 2022)

freeasaburt said:


> Not to add 'fuel to the fire', but what is wrong with Stihl HP ULtra? Have been running it for years 1:50 or a bit richer, mainly in my 2 026's. Seems to burn quite cleanly...
> If I'm not mistaken, it's also the oil they use in their 'Motomix' 2-stroke alkylate fuel.



I guess I've been ignorantly lucky with it for years. I've put gallons of it through saws...

I would have never known it to suck. 

Thank God for the world wide web thingy.


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## Pioneer (Oct 14, 2022)

Mix any good oil at 40:1? Don't try that with opti-2. I've had trouble trying to do it at 50:1 in a leaf blower and chainsaw. It really is meant to be mixed much thinner.
It seems the oil has a lot of cling to it, including clinging to the passageways in the carburetor. This can really mess with fuel flow, so much in fact I could not tune a leaf blower rich enough because it restricted that much. In a Stihl ms250 it really messed up the mid-range tune, and I could not adjust it out. After I went back to using Castrol like I normally do at 50:1, it slowly returned to normal as the Opti was washed out.
It seems to work fine at 100:1 and I've used it in small equipment like that, but I don't have enough courage to run it at 100:1 in one of my saws.
That being said my uncle has been using it in his 024 AV super since it was new at 100:1, and the saw still runs strong today. Up until about 5 years ago he's been using firewood to heat his house in the winter, so the saw is no shelf queen.

In any case I've had no trouble using Castrol for years at 50:1, but I usually cut in cooler temperatures and I would probably go to 40:1 if I cut during the middle of summer. My experience with it has been good, little in the way of deposits and never any oil related failures.


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## bucketofguts (Oct 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Just because a few companies(more like a half dozen) doesn't mean they are all the same. Phillips 66 has great track record of producing oil for many oems and they are all different.


I most certainly agree. What oil would you recommend Paul buy in a big container for his 2-stroke engines


Pioneer said:


> Mix any good oil at 40:1? Don't try that with opti-2. I've had trouble trying to do it at 50:1 in a leaf blower and chainsaw. It really is meant to be mixed much thinner.
> It seems the oil has a lot of cling to it, including clinging to the passageways in the carburetor. This can really mess with fuel flow, so much in fact I could not tune a leaf blower rich enough because it restricted that much. In a Stihl ms250 it really messed up the mid-range tune, and I could not adjust it out. After I went back to using Castrol like I normally do at 50:1, it slowly returned to normal as the Opti was washed out.
> It seems to work fine at 100:1 and I've used it in small equipment like that, but I don't have enough courage to run it at 100:1 in one of my saws.
> That being said my uncle has been using it in his 024 AV super since it was new at 100:1, and the saw still runs strong today. Up until about 5 years ago he's been using firewood to heat his house in the winter, so the saw is no shelf queen.
> ...


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## ColinNS (Oct 14, 2022)

Squareground3691 said:


> Several years , no issues


Same here. Break a motor down with a several tanks of that mix through it and you can feel a film on the piston. Great stuff but not cheap.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 14, 2022)

sean donato said:


> No running them on high test. The smaller scale glow engines run on a nitro/methanol mix. They were one weedwhacker engines back in the day. Now they are purpose built for rc use. These are the 2 1/5 scale models I currently have. The pic with my daughter is the 5ive t. 32cc zen based engine. The other chassis with the solid axles is a kraken vekta .5 34cc zen based engine.


I love this! Though I learnt early on by browsing forums that the addiction in that hobby is huge and so is the amount of money that one can spend LOL. After seeing that, I decided it wasn’t a hobby I needed haha. I enjoy seeing them tear up the parks when I bump in to people running them and can walk away knowing my wallet is not empty


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## Squareground3691 (Oct 14, 2022)

ColinNS said:


> Same here. Break a motor down with a several tanks of that mix through it and you can feel a film on the piston. Great stuff but not cheap.


Buying it by the gallon is the cheapest way to go .


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## Husky77 (Oct 14, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> I plan to get a big container of oil for my 2-stroke engines. Does it really matter which brand I get? More importantly, are there brands I should avoid?


If your going to buy some especially more than 1L you need to look into it more and make sure it's right, but if your not that concerned and go blind, all will work. Just some a lot better than others! But from what I see a lot just get any oil because it says 2 stroke and get away with it, run them hard and when the fail just get another...... then say " them saws are crap"


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## Husky77 (Oct 14, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> Thanks for the replies. Didn't know I was poking a sore spot.
> 
> I ordered Echo armor-something. It was cheaper than the stuff at Tractor Supply, and I didn't have to get in the car. I figured Echo ought to be able to make an oil that works.


You'll do ok, yes it's a mine field and so many run "the best oil" you can spend a lot of time researching. 30 years ago I ran mine on oregon 2t it was a semi synthetic and worked fine, never had a saw wear out and pistols were always good. Now 30 years on there are better oils but do they do a better job? You will find so much conflicting advice and every brand sell the best! How much time have you got to experiment and find out for yourself, it's the only way you will truly know. More importantly keep you chain sharp and dont force it to cut


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## Catfish044 (Oct 14, 2022)

Learned my lesson the hard way with stihl HP toasted the rod outta my 660 I always run my tune a little on the fat side with my saws , new 462 didn’t even get fired up and the crap dumped out non ethanol 90 and red armor at fat 40:1., that all everything gets now the 462 , 461 , 044 , 193t , the hedge trimer , weed eater and my old echo leaf blower has never ran better


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## JMCK (Oct 14, 2022)

Echo red armor with Non ethanol everyday, all day. Over 12 saws with zero issues.


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## sean donato (Oct 14, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I love this! Though I learnt early on by browsing forums that the addiction in that hobby is huge and so is the amount of money that one can spend LOL. After seeing that, I decided it wasn’t a hobby I needed haha. I enjoy seeing them tear up the parks when I bump in to people running them and can walk away knowing my wallet is not empty


Yeah cheap is not something 1/5 scale rc is. Only reason why I just have 2 of them and not more, well that and they take up a lot of room..


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## sean donato (Oct 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> They are for certain not.


So what's the difference? Everything I've found says they are all made by the same company. The only thing I can't confirm 100% for manufacturer of the hp+, however the regular hp is still a Phillips 66 production.


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## bwalker (Oct 14, 2022)

sean donato said:


> So what's the difference? Everything I've found says they are all made by the same company. The only thing I can't confirm 100% for manufacturer of the hp+, however the regular hp is still a Phillips 66 production.


I don't know. Honda HP2 is made by Phillips as well and I believe Yamalube 2R is made by them now too.
Phillips over the years has made good two cycle oils.


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## bwalker (Oct 14, 2022)

bucketofguts said:


> I most certainly agree. What oil would you recommend Paul buy in a big container for his 2-stroke engines


For a saw or other O P E any oil that's actually JASO FC or FD certified will do.


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## Dennisthemenace (Oct 14, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Hey Dennis, I haven’t sadly mate, have you?


No, sticking with Amsoil Sabre


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## lone wolf (Oct 14, 2022)

Dennisthemenace said:


> No, sticking with Amsoil Sabre


That works for me I never had a problem from it.


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## bucketofguts (Oct 14, 2022)

Catfish044 said:


> Learned my lesson the hard way with stihl HP toasted the rod outta my 660 I always run my tune a little on the fat side with my saws , new 462 didn’t even get fired up and the crap dumped out non ethanol 90 and red armor at fat 40:1., that all everything gets now the 462 , 461 , 044 , 193t , the hedge trimer , weed eater and my old echo leaf blower has never ra
> 
> 
> bucketofguts said:
> ...


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 14, 2022)

bucketofguts said:


> I most certainly agree. What oil would you recommend Paul buy in a big container for his 2-stroke engines



30wt non detergent. 

(Sarcasm, for the humor impaired.)


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## sean donato (Oct 14, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> 30wt non detergent.
> 
> (Sarcasm, for the humor impaired.)


I prefer conola oil myself....


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 14, 2022)

Dennisthemenace said:


> No, sticking with Amsoil Sabre


Gotcha. I got some, but it cost a pretty penny!! $44 AUD per L. Only ran a tank of it so far but the smell and smoke is much less than the others I have tested so far.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 14, 2022)

Holy hell, we can get a gallon of Husky XP+ for nearly that price in the states.

Edit: Woops I'm wrong, conversion is farther apart than I thought. $44AUD = $27USD at current rates. I thought they were near parity right now, I was wrong.


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## KASH (Oct 15, 2022)

I started full time cut and skid logging in 1979 brand new Husqvarna 162 used what ever oil was on sale mixed quart to five gallon after about 2000 hours the power was down a bit time for a rebuild.
Today if I had a brand new 162 and used the best modern oil at there recommended ratio I would probably get around 2000 hours.
The 2 main reasons saws die early are 
Set too lean
Dull chains with lean mix ratios a really bad combination on hot days.


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## Dennisthemenace (Oct 15, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Gotcha. I got some, but it cost a pretty penny!! $44 AUD per L. Only ran a tank of it so far but the smell and smoke is much less than the others I have tested so far.
> 
> View attachment 1024200





Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Gotcha. I got some, but it cost a pretty penny!! $44 AUD per L. Only ran a tank of it so far but the smell and smoke is much less than the others I have tested so far.
> 
> View attachment 1024200


It's a bit better by the US gallon (3 and a bit litres) but hey, one of the few blokes on here who actually wears big saws out and works them real hard in Australian conditions , Rogue60 (and his legend Dad!) just use that el cheapo Castrol garden 2T mineral @ 25/1 and swear by it. He'll correct me if I'm wrong on those details but I try to no longer overthink the oil thing


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 15, 2022)

Dennisthemenace said:


> It's a bit better by the US gallon (3 and a bit litres) but hey, one of the few blokes on here who actually wears big saws out and works them real hard in Australian conditions , Rogue60 (and his legend Dad!) just use that el cheapo Castrol garden 2T mineral @ 25/1 and swear by it. He'll correct me if I'm wrong on those details but I try to no longer overthink the oil thing


Yeah he does, so does trains! Burns so cleanly, but they both work their equipment harddddd.

Funnily enough I forgot to mention, I was on the search for the 2 stroke oil smell that was so reminiscent of my dirtbike days (2008 onwards). It’s Amsoil Saber. So far it’s the only oil I can run at 32:1 that produces hardly any smoke, doesn’t give me a headache and smells absolutely amazing. It’s literally the smell of pure joy LOL


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Wouldn't even use it for that...


Did someone mention undercoating yet ?


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Come on guys. Let's here it from the 100 to 1 crowd....


250:1 in hand sprayer , with an ounce of lacquer thinner really works great . Strange after taste though


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

Dennisthemenace said:


> It's a bit better by the US gallon (3 and a bit litres) but hey, one of the few blokes on here who actually wears big saws out and works them real hard in Australian conditions , Rogue60 (and his legend Dad!) just use that el cheapo Castrol garden 2T mineral @ 25/1 and swear by it. He'll correct me if I'm wrong on those details but I try to no longer overthink the oil thing


Nah , he also uses it for cologne , beats the hell out of old spice !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> More important than which oil you choose, is learning to tune your saw properly. Plenty more saws are killed by a bad tune, than are killed by running the wrong two stroke oil. Lots of videos on YT.


You forgot shiiiity fuel !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I dumped mine in the truck. Wasn't going to waste it either!


That's why it was smoking so bad last time I saw it !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I don't know. Honda HP2 is made by Phillips as well and I believe Yamalube 2R is made by them now too.
> Phillips over the years has made good two cycle oils.


Don't sweat it Sean , some people split hairs just for the sake of argument . Any good FC rated oil is more than sufficient within any air cooled 2T engine as verified in Rogje60's Gardener-2t Stihl 660 testimonals ! Now , perhaps if you have sensitivity to smoke & 2T exhaust byproducts and must run a saw or trimmer or blower . Some quality FD oils may reduce your sensitivity accordingly . I also , believe your correct with the Redmax & Husky xp being a Phillips product . However , I believe RedArmor is from a different supplier brother , you can verify of course .


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

sean donato said:


> No running them on high test. The smaller scale glow engines run on a nitro/methanol mix. They were one weedwhacker engines back in the day. Now they are purpose built for rc use. These are the 2 1/5 scale models I currently have. The pic with my daughter is the 5ive t. 32cc zen based engine. The other chassis with the solid axles is a kraken vekta .5 34cc zen based engine.


Loved those Zenoah based 2T Strato injected engines . Recall when Zenoah was designing Fuji 3 cylinder engines for Polaris Starfires . Lite yrs a head of the competition , actually welded up a lot of those tuned pipes for out triples back in the day . Polaris sent each dealer layout detailed prints for fabrication .


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

KASH said:


> I started full time cut and skid logging in 1979 brand new Husqvarna 162 used what ever oil was on sale mixed quart to five gallon after about 2000 hours the power was down a bit time for a rebuild.
> Today if I had a brand new 162 and used the best modern oil at there recommended ratio I would probably get around 2000 hours.
> The 2 main reasons saws die early are
> Set too lean
> Dull chains with lean mix ratios a really bad combination on hot days.


And smoked pto bearing from those dull chains in that hot weather brother !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Yeah he does, so does trains! Burns so cleanly, but they both work their equipment harddddd.
> 
> Funnily enough I forgot to mention, I was on the search for the 2 stroke oil smell that was so reminiscent of my dirtbike days (2008 onwards). It’s Amsoil Saber. So far it’s the only oil I can run at 32:1 that produces hardly any smoke, doesn’t give me a headache and smells absolutely amazing. It’s literally the smell of pure joy LOL


Yeah , Saber was a big seller within motox & sleds when it 1st came out . 40:1 in both for yrs with great success !


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## flatsfisher (Oct 15, 2022)

Squareground3691 said:


> Several years , no issues


as a hardcore 2 stroke dirt bike guy I can say that Motul 800 is good stuff. another great oil is Champion WP. my riding bud put 255 hours on his KTM 300XC with it and when I did a top end for him everything was perfect. not a mark. he's been using it for 25 years. I use this and have had fantastic results.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 15, 2022)

This is my small stash of Mobil Racing 2T, as well as a couple other oils I want to try.


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## halfmile (Oct 15, 2022)

Belray or Spectrol work great in motorcycles..........I worked on bikes for years and they are both good.

HM


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## lone wolf (Oct 15, 2022)

halfmile said:


> Belray or Spectrol work great in motorcycles..........I worked on bikes for years and they are both good.
> 
> HM


I wonder how Belray is in saws? I have a bunch of it laying around MC1 and H1R ?


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## sean donato (Oct 15, 2022)

flatsfisher said:


> as a hardcore 2 stroke dirt bike guy I can say that Motul 800 is good stuff. another great oil is Champion WP. my riding bud put 255 hours on his KTM 300XC with it and when I did a top end for him everything was perfect. not a mark. he's been using it for 25 years. I use this and have had fantastic results.
> View attachment 1024295


Can tell you don't live in the states....lol


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## flatsfisher (Oct 15, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Can tell you don't live in the states....lol


no, I live in the jungle. Florida gulf coast.


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## lone wolf (Oct 15, 2022)

Anyone know where I can get Amsoil 2 stroke in quarts under 16.00 ? It seems to be hard to find or stupidly priced.


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## SimonHS (Oct 15, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Anyone know where I can get Amsoil 2 stroke in quarts under 16.00 ? It seems to be hard to find or stupidly priced.



You can get it cheaper direct from Amsoil if you become a preferred customer. Probably worth it if you use a lot of oil.



https://www.amsoil.com/offers/pc/


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## lone wolf (Oct 16, 2022)

SimonHS said:


> You can get it cheaper direct from Amsoil if you become a preferred customer. Probably worth it if you use a lot of oil.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amsoil.com/offers/pc/


Just did it yes it saw a few dollars lees ea.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

flatsfisher said:


> as a hardcore 2 stroke dirt bike guy I can say that Motul 800 is good stuff. another great oil is Champion WP. my riding bud put 255 hours on his KTM 300XC with it and when I did a top end for him everything was perfect. not a mark. he's been using it for 25 years. I use this and have had fantastic results.
> View attachment 1024295


I'm sure jealous of that collection. I burnt my last bit of MX2T/2R a long time ago.
It was a remarkable oil that only cost $3.50 a pint!


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## flatsfisher (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm sure jealous of that collection. I burnt my last bit of MX2T/2R a long time ago.
> It was a remarkable oil that only cost $3.50 a pint!


when Mobil discontinued this product in the early 2000's I bought every bottle and case I could find at about 6 auto parts stores. they were clearing it out for $1.00 a pint. the quarts were 2 bucks ea. I had twice as much as in this photo, but I ride dirt bikes and have used up a lot of it since then.


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## huskihl (Oct 16, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> I wonder how Belray is in saws? I have a bunch of it laying around MC1 and H1R ?


I’ve personally seen the internals of clapped out tree service saws that were run on H1R at 40:1 since new. They’re all perfect inside. He also says he has 3 550’s that he guesses have over 1000 hours each and still running the original bearings


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

halfmile said:


> Belray or Spectrol work great in motorcycles..........I worked on bikes for years and they are both good.
> 
> HM


Back in the day , unfortunately have not seen any in decades locally . I ran Belray H1R in my Kawasaki 500 & 750 Triples in the 70 's a premium grade oil back then !


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## lone wolf (Oct 16, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’ve personally seen the internals of clapped out tree service saws that were run on H1R at 40:1 since new. They’re all perfect inside. He also says he has 3 550’s that he guesses have over 1000 hours each and still running the original bearings


Thanks good to know


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Back in the day , unfortunately have not seen any in decades locally . I ran Belray H1R in my Kawasaki 500 & 750 Triples in the 70 'seas a premium grade oil back then !


H1R didn't come out until the 90's.


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## lone wolf (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> H1R didn't come out until the 90's.


MC1 then.


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> I wonder how Belray is in saws? I have a bunch of it laying around MC1 and H1R ?


H1R is good stuff but don't mix it any heavier than 40:1. Even at 50:1 it coats everything with oil.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

I'm going to be a contrarian here.
I think there are much better choices than H1R that cost less and work better.


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

Belray si-7 isn't one i would consider though.


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## lone wolf (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm going to be a contrarian here.
> I think there are much better choices than H1R that cost less and work better.


What's your recomendation?


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> What's your recomendation?


Any actually certified Jaso FC/FD oil will work fine in a saw.
Husky, Red Max, Echo oils will work great.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Belray si-7 isn't one i would consider though.


It's an injector oil, which I prefer not to run in premix applications.


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## hosocat (Oct 16, 2022)

You know, with all the criticism I'm hearing about stihl 2 stroke oil, I'm surprised some stihl dealer or engineer hasn't come to its defense.

I wonder if anyone has done a good analysis of stihl oil to determine if it is a good oil or not.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

hosocat said:


> You know, with all the criticism I'm hearing about stihl 2 stroke oil, I'm surprised some stihl dealer or engineer hasn't come to its defense.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has done a good analysis of stihl oil to determine if it is a good oil or not.


Suckers keep buying. Why would they care?


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## North by Northwest (Oct 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> H1R didn't come out until the 90's.


Well Bell Ray XXX injector oil equivalent then , was a good oil , I got a free case (12 qt) with the H1 500 , put over 20,000 miles & reduced smoke in comparison to Yamalube . Eventually went to Castrol T Injector oil later with the H2 750 they really were oil thirsty lol. However , I would not recommend any of those oils today .


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## North by Northwest (Oct 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm going to be a contrarian here.
> I think there are much better choices than H1R that cost less and work better.


Today , certainly many better options !


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## sean donato (Oct 17, 2022)

hosocat said:


> You know, with all the criticism I'm hearing about stihl 2 stroke oil, I'm surprised some stihl dealer or engineer hasn't come to its defense.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has done a good analysis of stihl oil to determine if it is a good oil or not.


From what I understand it was designed for the 4mix engine, not necessarily any of the 2 stroke engines. But it's in a fancy silver bottle and costs a lot....


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## bwalker (Oct 17, 2022)

sean donato said:


> From what I understand it was designed for the 4mix engine, not necessarily any of the 2 stroke engines. But it's in a fancy silver bottle and costs a lot....


By Stihl own admission it's a FB quality oil. In other words it's an early 80's quality oil.


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## jellyroll (Oct 17, 2022)

sean donato said:


> From what I understand it was designed for the 4mix engine, not necessarily any of the 2 stroke engines. But it's in a fancy silver bottle and costs a lot....


Good for door hinges.


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## bwalker (Oct 17, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Today , certainly many better options !


Should be noted that H1R was brought to market as a cleaner burning alternative to MC1. It had power valve formula on the bottle IIRC.


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## bwalker (Oct 17, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Good for door hinges.


Works good in the terribly designed engine that is the 4mix.


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## sean donato (Oct 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Works good in the terribly designed engine that is the 4mix.


Still cloths the muffler screen up every third tank....


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## jellyroll (Oct 17, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Still cloths the muffler screen up every third tank....


Both flavors of stihl oil is garbage it causes some nasty patches of carbon in the exhaust port of the saw. even leaves flaky black crud inside of the cylinder
Seen a 029 that was carbon scored from using it. i saved it with scotch brite and a set of new rings. that saw lives on a diet of master pro 2 cycle oil from oreilly auto.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Should be noted that H1R was brought to market as a cleaner burning alternative to MC1. It had power valve formula on the bottle IIRC.


I think it was Belray 1 something , a injector only product , not a Premix . It was a fine oil back then , not so much by today's standards ! It was circa 1973 .


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## North by Northwest (Oct 17, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Both flavors of stihl oil is garbage it causes some nasty patches of carbon in the exhaust port of the saw. even leaves flaky black crud inside of the cylinder
> Seen a 029 that was carbon scored from using it. i saved it with scotch brite and a set of new rings. that saw lives on a diet of master pro 2 cycle oil from oreilly auto.


You can ' t run salmon oil in a low rpm 4 mix and expect miracles ! The Premium Series in the White bottle @ 50:1 was the only Stihl oil that ever cut it .


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## jellyroll (Oct 17, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> You can ' t run salmon oil in a low rpm 4 mix and expect miracles ! The Premium Series in the White bottle @ 50:1 was the only Stihl oil that ever cut it .


No such thing here in the states. It is either orange or silver


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## huskihl (Oct 18, 2022)

I believe the Stihl HP Super in the white bottle was actually an FD rated oil but isn’t available here


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 18, 2022)

Was the white bottle Stihl oil in Canada the stuff that was made by Castrol? Actually decent stuff.


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## huskihl (Oct 18, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Was the white bottle Stihl oil in Canada the stuff that was made by Castrol? Actually decent stuff.


I believe stihl ultra is made by Castrol in Canada. In the US it’s made by someone else


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## freeasaburt (Oct 18, 2022)

Here in W-Europe, in Belgium at least, HP Ultra is sold in a transparent 'squeeze' bottle...






On their website, it's mentioned that the performance class is JASO-FB, ISO-L-EGB . I checked a bottle I still have lying around and on the back label it mentions 'Made in Germany'.


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## ladnar (Oct 18, 2022)

I'm an amateur, My collection is up to 17 saws now, some running some not, I used to use Stihl oil, because it was Stihl and expensive and I figured it was good, switched to Red Armor and my saws really woke up, can't believe an oil can make such a big difference in the way they run. Just my 2 cents,


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 18, 2022)

I’ve been running the amsoil Saber since I started running saws close to 20 years ago, and have run their oils in every 2 stroke engine I’ve ever owned and have never lost a engine. 

For my saws I mix at 48:1 for a very scientific reason which might take too long to explain but I’ll try. 8 oz of oil gives 4 equal portions per quart. 8oz of oil in 3 gallons of gas is 48:1


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## bwalker (Oct 18, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> I’ve been running the amsoil Saber since I started running saws close to 20 years ago, and have run their oils in every 2 stroke engine I’ve ever owned and have never lost a engine.
> 
> For my saws I mix at 48:1 for a very scientific reason which might take too long to explain but I’ll try. 8 oz of oil gives 4 equal portions per quart. 8oz of oil in 3 gallons of gas is 48:1


That's why I run 1oz per quart x 4 qt in a gallon 32:1.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 18, 2022)

Sure makes life easy.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 18, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I believe the Stihl HP Super in the white bottle was actually an FD rated oil but isn’t available here





OM617YOTA said:


> Was the white bottle Stihl oil in Canada the stuff that was made by Castrol? Actually decent stuff.


Yeah , the "Premium" white bottle is Made by Castrol in Toronto Canada . It has a 141 f . flash point . Where as the " 2T Super " again white bottle by Castrol in Canada had a flash point of 171 f . both were very reasonable price & quality oils . I did not realize that they were not offered South of the Border !


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## bwalker (Oct 18, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yeah , the "Premium" white bottle is Made by Castrol in Toronto Canada . It has a 141 f . flash point . Where as the " 2T Super " again white bottle by Castrol in Canada had a flash point of 171 f . both were very reasonable price & quality oils . I did not realizebthatbthey were not offered South of the Border !


Flash point doesn't infer what people think. A low flash point just tells you two things. A. The diluent used is high quality and B. It's a multi ingredient formulation. All FD certified oils are multi part formulations. IE they use a medium weight base oil that burns clean and a heavier weight base oil like PIB or in rare cases an ester for load carry ability/ scuff resistance.
High flash point multi base oils are problematic because the diluent doesn't combust fully and this causes deposits. They also tend to lower octane because the cheap diluent are typicaly stoddard solvent. They also inhibit combustion and cause a strong smell. Oils with a high flash point that only have one base oil.
I actually tried a low ash type oil sold by the company I work for and I could tell almost immediately it was garbage because I could smell the solvent passing through the motor uncombusted and this was with a strato motor.
The other thing is on a MSDS the diluent is often listed as Stoddard solvent,naptha kerosene, etc. These are sort of blanket names for various hydrocarbon fractions of different boiling points and thus flash points. In other words you may see a MSDS that lists kerosene as the diluent and it's shows a 175 degree flash point and another that also lists kerosene as the diluent that has a 250 degree flash point. The higher one will often pass through the motor in a partially combusted or un combusted state when not subjected to high loads.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Flash point doesn't infer what people think. A low flash point just tells you two things. A. The diluent used is high quality and B. It's a multi ingredient formulation. All FD certified oils are multi part formulations. IE they use a medium weight base oil that burns clean and a heavier weight base oil like PIB or in rare cases an ester for load carry ability/ scuff resistance.
> High flash point multi base oils are problematic because the diluent doesn't combust fully and this causes deposits. They also tend to lower octane because the cheap diluent are typicaly stoddard solvent. They also inhibit combustion and cause a strong smell. Oils with a high flash point that only have one base oil.
> I actually tried a low ash type oil sold by the company I work for and I could tell almost immediately it was garbage because I could smell the solvent passing through the motor uncombusted and this was with a strato motor.
> The other thing is on a MSDS the diluent is often listed as Stoddard solvent,naptha kerosene, etc. These are sort of blanket names for various hydrocarbon fractions of different boiling points and thus flash points. In other words you may see a MSDS that lists kerosene as the diluent and it's shows a 175 degree flash point and another that also lists kerosene as the diluent that has a 250 degree flash point. The higher one will often pass through the motor in a partially combusted or un combusted state when not subjected to high loads.


Very good points . Most of the higher flash point oils I have witnessed have been problematic . Although as you mentioned. Detergency packages can resolve deposit issues effectively , I always worry that they may contribute to cooling the critical temperatures & further aggravate deposit formation due to incomplete combustion & sponge formation in the exhaust runner . Ultra via BP oil of Shreveport la. has a flash point of 432 f . & a predictable carbon deposit & excessive sponge producing effect . Your analogy Ben most likely is spot on !


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## bwalker (Oct 18, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Very good points . Most of the higher flash point oils I have witnessed have been problematic . Although as you mentioned. Detergency packages can resolve deposit issues effectively , I always worry that they may contribute to cooling the critical temperatures & further aggravate deposit formation due to incomplete combustion & sponge formation in the exhaust runner !


Detergents can be problematic too. JASO FD limits sulphated ash content for this reason. What happens if you try to band aid a poor base oil formulation with extra detergent is the ring grooves and belt stay clean, but you end up with buildup of mettalic deposits on the cylinder head and piston crown which can lead to pre ignition. These mettalics are also what's responsible for plug fouling as they ground out the spark plug or increase resistance to the point that the spark is weak.
It's all a fine balance.
And for what it's worth. Sulphated ash refers to a bench test where a sample of oil is reacted with sulfuric acid. The residue left over is the mettalic portion of the oil sample and is referred to as sulphated ash. Sulphated ash has nothing to do with combustion by products like carbon, etc.


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## bwalker (Oct 18, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Very good points . Most of the higher flash point oils I have witnessed have been problematic . Although as you mentioned. Detergency packages can resolve deposit issues effectively , I always worry that they may contribute to cooling the critical temperatures & further aggravate deposit formation due to incomplete combustion & sponge formation in the exhaust runner . Ultra via BP oil of Shreveport la. has a flash point of 432 f . & a predictable carbon deposit & excessive sponge producing effect . Your analogy Ben most likely is spot on !


Ultra has that high of flash point because it uses a garbage diluent and that in concert with its ashless amine based dispersent is also why it smells really bad.


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## thenne1713 (Oct 19, 2022)

hosocat said:


> You know, with all the criticism I'm hearing about stihl 2 stroke oil, I'm surprised some stihl dealer or engineer hasn't come to its defense.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has done a good analysis of stihl oil to determine if it is a good oil or not.


Not a dealer, but from my Observation, (RIGHT/WRONG?) ECHO was 1st to go FULL SYNTHETIC w/ 5-year warranty on the POWER BLEND, STIHL (from MY reading) stayed away for another 5-years (+/-) BEFORE GOING FULL SYNTHETIC? (MY suspicion/ experience) says any name-brand synthetic 2-stroke air-cooled oil beats any dino oil hands down.


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## Valpen (Oct 19, 2022)

freeasaburt said:


> Here in W-Europe, in Belgium at least, HP Ultra is sold in a transparent 'squeeze' bottle...
> 
> 
> View attachment 1025257
> ...


And here is the Norwegian version of the HP Super (ie- pre 4-mix)


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 19, 2022)

For those who run Saber, what are you mixing at?

Tried 32:1 because that’s what I have been running with other oils, and it wasn’t looking too good. This is after 20 minutes fully loaded the whole time. Not convinced at 80:1 concept just yet, but I’m thinking I’ll go to 50:1 and try again. Piston was clean beforehand and plug brand new. 70% clean 30% carbon (roughly) carbon is slightly soft and gooey, can be almost scraped off with a screwdriver. This was in a stihl weed whacker loaded the whole time and tuned correctly.


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## FlyingDutchman (Oct 19, 2022)

Used stihl hp ultra mostly for at least 10+ years and no issues that i know of, but good to know that it's not a good oil. What I have left can go in the diesel truck.

I couldn't read the big oil thread too much bs. Thanks for the sparknotes.


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## jellyroll (Oct 19, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> For those who run Saber, what are you mixing at?
> 
> Tried 32:1 because that’s what I have been running with other oils, and it wasn’t looking too good. This is after 20 minutes fully loaded the whole time. Not convinced at 80:1 concept just yet, but I’m thinking I’ll go to 50:1 and try again. Piston was clean beforehand and plug brand new. 70% clean 30% carbon (roughly) carbon is slightly soft and gooey, can be almost scraped off with a screwdriver. This was in a stihl weed whacker loaded the whole time and tuned correctly. View attachment 1025478
> View attachment 1025479
> ...


50:1 is what i would use saber at because it is such a higher viscosity oil over others because it doesn't have a diluent in it like Stihl oil.


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## dave ensign (Oct 19, 2022)

Anybody know a thing about MASTER PRO 2cycle oil that claims for use in water- or air-cooled applications.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 19, 2022)

I wouldn't use any "multi use" two stroke oil for any length of time. Couple cuts at the end of the day to finish the job, sure. Standard and continued practice, no way.


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## bwalker (Oct 19, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> Not a dealer, but from my Observation, (RIGHT/WRONG?) ECHO was 1st to go FULL SYNTHETIC w/ 5-year warranty on the POWER BLEND, STIHL (from MY reading) stayed away for another 5-years (+/-) BEFORE GOING FULL SYNTHETIC? (MY suspicion/ experience) says any name-brand synthetic 2-stroke air-cooled oil beats any dino oil hands down.


Power Bland is not full synthetic and just because an oil is synthetic doesn't mean it's better.


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## Tomos770 (Oct 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I believe the Stihl HP Super in the white bottle was actually an FD rated oil but isn’t available here


In EU....its FB









MOTORNO OLJE HP SUPER ZA DVOTAKTNE MOTORJE


<p>- razred zmogljivosti: JASO-FB, ISO-L-EGB, mešalno razmerje 1:50</p><p>- polsintetično "Low-Smoke" olje za čisto zgorevanje in manj dima</p><p>- z odličnimi zagonskimi lastnostmi</p><p>- razvito posebej za dvotaktne motorje STIHL</p>




unicommerce.si


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## jellyroll (Oct 19, 2022)

dave ensign said:


> Anybody know a thing about MASTER PRO 2cycle oil that claims for use in water- or air-cooled applications.





OM617YOTA said:


> I wouldn't use any "multi use" two stroke oil for any length of time. Couple cuts at the end of the day to finish the job, sure. Standard and continued practice, no way.


This is the oil you want to use in chainsaws it says it meets jaso fc. I have used it before with success it does smoke a little when the equipment is cold but after warming up it is fine. 


https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/masterpro-oils/oil--chemicals---fluids/motor-oil/motor-oil---2-cycle/009c874df388/masterpro-2-cycle-motor-oil-1-quart/mp20/80022


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 19, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> This is the oil you want to use in chainsaws it says it meets jaso fc. I have used it before with success it does smoke a little when the equipment is cold but after warming up it is fine.
> 
> 
> https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/masterpro-oils/oil--chemicals---fluids/motor-oil/motor-oil---2-cycle/009c874df388/masterpro-2-cycle-motor-oil-1-quart/mp20/80022



I wouldn't run it as engine oil in anything I care about, except maybe for a couple cuts at the end of the day. No JASO badge, no matter what they claim. If it works for water cooled engines, I doubt it actually meets JASO specs.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 19, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> For those who run Saber, what are you mixing at?
> 
> Tried 32:1 because that’s what I have been running with other oils, and it wasn’t looking too good. This is after 20 minutes fully loaded the whole time. Not convinced at 80:1 concept just yet, but I’m thinking I’ll go to 50:1 and try again. Piston was clean beforehand and plug brand new. 70% clean 30% carbon (roughly) carbon is slightly soft and gooey, can be almost scraped off with a screwdriver. This was in a stihl weed whacker loaded the whole time and tuned correctly. View attachment 1025478
> View attachment 1025479
> ...


I run 48:1 with the Saber myself


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## farmer steve (Oct 20, 2022)




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## jellyroll (Oct 20, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I wouldn't run it as engine oil in anything I care about, except maybe for a couple cuts at the end of the day. No JASO badge, no matter what they claim. If it works for water cooled engines, I doubt it actually meets JASO specs.


It is much better than lucas.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 20, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> It is much better than lucas.



Looking at what Lucas offers, I wouldn't use that either. Anything that hints at any suitability for water cooled usage would be out.


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## skeet88 (Oct 20, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Looking at what Lucas offers, I wouldn't use that either. Anything that hints at any suitability for water cooled usage would be out.


 Now I have to go find some more oil. Not an everyday chainsawer like some, mainly running my string trimmer. Be Safe.


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## Tomos770 (Oct 20, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Looking at what Lucas offers, I wouldn't use that either. Anything that hints at any suitability for water cooled usage would be out.


My 1999 Gilera Runner 50ccm scooter is water cooled......it has 24.000kms on clock (thats damn alot for first rings/piston/crankshaft for 50ccm mofa)....and it still runs....

It lived with whatever FC(mostly) /FD oil back then when I was a teenager....


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## ballisticdoughnut (Oct 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> I wonder how Belray is in saws? I have a bunch of it laying around MC1 and H1R ?


H1R is great stuff, been using it (at 40:1) for several months so far. I’ve pulled top ends on two of my saws and was pleasantly surprised. Nice oil film and clean inside. Also like the VP mix oil.


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## sean donato (Oct 20, 2022)

The VP racing oil is liked by a bunch of guys in my 1/5 scale rc circle as a cheap readily available oil. Kinda funny I have a little bottle of Lucas I got as a sample that I use for assembly lol.


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## ballisticdoughnut (Oct 20, 2022)

sean donato said:


> The VP racing oil is liked by a bunch of guys in my 1/5 scale rc circle as a cheap readily available oil. Kinda funny I have a little bottle of Lucas I got as a sample that I use for assembly lol.


For the price the VP oil is hard to beat. FD rated and also leaves a nice film of oil. Carbon seems to be pretty low as well.


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## lone wolf (Oct 20, 2022)

ballisticdoughnut said:


> For the price the VP oil is hard to beat. FD rated and also leaves a nice film of oil. Carbon seems to be pretty low as well.


Whats it cost?


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 20, 2022)

$7-10 per 2.6 oz bottle on Amazon and eBay! Ouch..... Their website says otherwise...









2-Stroke Oil: VP Full Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil | VP Racing Fuels


VP synthetic 2-stroke oil | High Detergency Formula | 2.6 oz./$3.49 | JASO FD certified | Provides industry-leading performance.




vpracingfuels.com


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## lone wolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Chevboy0167 said:


> $7-10 per 2.6 oz bottle on Amazon and eBay! Ouch..... Their website says otherwise...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazon is always high on oil I noticed.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 20, 2022)

This may hurt a bit less... I got 1 from the local Oreilly Auto parts store for some backup. Don't recall what I paid tho.... wanna say under $10.









VP Racing Fuels 2-Cycle Full Synthetic Oil 16 oz - 2907 | eBay


VP 2-stroke oil is the best full synthetic 2-cycle oil on the market for small engines. It provides industry-leading performance, includes a high-detergency formula, and is JASO FD certified. Our small engine lubricant is perfect for owners who prefer to handle their own 40:1 oil or 50:1 oil mix...



www.ebay.com


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 20, 2022)

Robot or human?



Much better deal. Walmart will ship, too.


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## sean donato (Oct 20, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Robot or human?
> 
> 
> 
> Much better deal. Walmart will ship, too.


Yeah I was gonna say, I've never seen the squeeze to measure bottle over $10.00 at wally world. But inflation is real, so I'm sure it will go up like crazy.


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## jellyroll (Oct 20, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Yeah I was gonna say, I've never seen the squeeze to measure bottle over $10.00 at wally world. But inflation is real, so I'm sure it will go up like crazy.


I thought there was no inflation according to corn pop.


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## jellyroll (Oct 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Amazon is always high on oil I noticed.


You can get VP oil at Walmart or TSC.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 20, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Now I have to go find some more oil. Not an everyday chainsawer like some, mainly running my string trimmer. Be Safe.


Join the club, the door is open  there is a bunch of us in here searching for the right oil for us LOL


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## ballisticdoughnut (Oct 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Whats it cost?


16oz is $12 dollars according to the VP website. Looks like you can buy direct.


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## lone wolf (Oct 20, 2022)

ballisticdoughnut said:


> 16oz is $12 dollars according to the VP website. Looks like you can buy direct.


Still high when you are really paying almost 100.00 a gallon.


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## sean donato (Oct 20, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I thought there was no inflation according to corn pop.


Yeah my grocery and fuel bill says different lol.


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## jellyroll (Oct 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Still high when you are really paying almost 100.00 a gallon.


@North by Northwest he ran the cheapo blackmax 2 cycle oil at walmart all summer with no problems around here it is 0.96 cents per 2.6 ounce bottle or 7.97 for the 16 ounce squeeze bottle.


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## lone wolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Join the club, the door is open  there is a bunch of us in here searching for the right oil for us LOL


Go on Amsoils website and look up a gallon of Saber.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Go on Amsoils website and look up a gallon of Saber.


Yep  that’s what I’m using at the moment, I love the smell and colour.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Oct 21, 2022)

For what it's worth, I run Saber at 66:1 in my paramotor, and have for YEARS. Single cylinder, 190cc 2-stroke, air cooled. All other equipment gets Saber at 100:1, even customer's equipment. Haven't had one yet come back with lubrication-related issues.


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## SimonHS (Oct 21, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> For what it's worth, I run Saber at 66:1 in my paramotor, and have for YEARS. Single cylinder, 190cc 2-stroke, air cooled. All other equipment gets Saber at 100:1, even customer's equipment. Haven't had one yet come back with lubrication-related issues.
> 
> View attachment 1026061



What level of residual oil do you see on the crank, piston and cylinder at 66:1? And 100:1? Do you have any photos from when you stripped down the engine?

It's not that I don't believe you. This is really good real-world, long term info on the performance of Saber.


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## sean donato (Oct 21, 2022)

I'm curious as well, my father in law paramotors. He's pretty heavy on oil with his. I think he mentioned 32 to 1 with whatever brand of oil he uses.


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## dboyd351 (Oct 21, 2022)

@Vintage Engine Repairs 
I have had good results running Saber @ 50:1.


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## skeet88 (Oct 21, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> For what it's worth, I run Saber at 66:1 in my paramotor, and have for YEARS. Single cylinder, 190cc 2-stroke, air cooled. All other equipment gets Saber at 100:1, even customer's equipment. Haven't had one yet come back with lubrication-related issues.
> 
> View attachment 1026061


Well you sold me on it ! You trusting it in an application like that says a lot. Cool picture. Be Safe !


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## sean donato (Oct 21, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Well you sold me on it ! You trusting it in an application like that says a lot. Cool picture. Be Safe !


Even if the motor fails you can still glide in for a landing.....


----------



## lone wolf (Oct 21, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Even if the motor fails you can still glide in for a landing.....


Problem is the choice is narrowed as to where you can land.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 21, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> All other equipment gets Saber at 100:1, even customer's equipment.



I just can't fathom this. Zero reason to play the "how close to running my engine without oil can I get?" game. It's like going to the desert and trying to live on as little water as possible, or draining 3 quarts of oil out of your car's engine, and driving around on the remaining 2 quarts. More oil seals rings better, makes more power, lubes better, cools better, and good oil even runs cleaner, due to more detergents being present in the greater amount of oil. Just absolutely zero reason to even attempt this. 

If I took my equipment to a shop, and they put 100:1 mix in it, harsh words would be spoken, and they would never see a single penny of my money ever again.


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## sean donato (Oct 21, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Problem is the choice is narrowed as to where you can land.


Roger that, that's one of the reasons he cant get me to do it. If my daughter was bigger she would be all about it. My FIL is doing something so he can fly double and take her with him next sumer. Something about a cart and some classes.


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## thenne1713 (Oct 21, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> I run 48:1 with the Saber myself


Were you re-tuning with each change in MIX ratio? It is required


----------



## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 21, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> Were you re-tuning with each change in MIX ratio? It is required


I’m not really convinced about the necessity to tune if you change mix, so long as it’s not drastic like going from 100:1 to 16:1.

I doubt there will be any change required between 40:1 / 50:1 / 32:1.

Happy to be proven wrong.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 21, 2022)

I've had to re-tune going from 40:1 to 50:1, and back again. When I was running Tru-fuel, I got one can of 50:1 somehow. I should have just dumped that can in the truck and not run it in the saw at all.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 21, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I've had to re-tune going from 40:1 to 50:1, and back again. When I was running Tru-fuel, I got one can of 50:1 somehow. I should have just dumped that can in the truck and not run it in the saw at all.


Hmm were you going from pump gas to tru fuel? That’ll require tuning, but I’d be surprised if the same gas just different mix ratio by 1% would require it. I’ll test and video my findings tomorrow and report back.


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## sean donato (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I’m not really convinced about the necessity to tune if you change mix, so long as it’s not drastic like going from 100:1 to 16:1.
> 
> I doubt there will be any change required between 40:1 / 50:1 / 32:1.
> 
> Happy to be proven wrong.


Your changing the amount of fuel that gies into the engine, even if marginally, why wouldn't you tune for it? Does that +or- not matter to you? You like testing things go grab your tach and see the changes. Heck a 15* temp swing makes a noticeable difference adding or taking away fuel via oil displacement will make a difference as well.


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## sean donato (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Hmm were you going from pump gas to tru fuel? That’ll require tuning, but I’d be surprised if the same gas just different mix ratio by 1% would require it. I’ll test and video my findings tomorrow and report back.


That's funny I just posted foe you to do that lol!


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 21, 2022)

sean donato said:


> That's funny I just posted foe you to do that lol!


Haha yeah I’ll try it for myself and share the video here. I have a weed eater that I’ve just finished so i’ll have a play around tomorrow.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 21, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> Were you re-tuning with each change in MIX ratio? It is required


I’ve always run it 48:1 so that’s what my saws are tuned for. Been running it for years now.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 21, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Your changing the amount of fuel that gies into the engine, even if marginally, why wouldn't you tune for it? Does that +or- not matter to you? You like testing things go grab your tach and see the changes. Heck a 15* temp swing makes a noticeable difference adding or taking away fuel via oil displacement will make a difference as well.


When I was a kid I always observed my old old man tuning his saws constantly, and since I didn’t do that with my Husky I got the notion in my head that Stihl carburetors we’re junk. 

Now at 29 years of age, it doesn’t matter what saw I run, if it’s more then a couple cuts I find myself tuning it to get the most out of it.


----------



## OM617YOTA (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Hmm were you going from pump gas to tru fuel? That’ll require tuning, but I’d be surprised if the same gas just different mix ratio by 1% would require it. I’ll test and video my findings tomorrow and report back.



Running 40:1 Trufuel, refueled with the one can of 50:1, saw went super lean. Retuned for 50:1, used it up, went back to 40:1, had to retune again. All happened within an hour, same place, same altitude, same temp, same humidity, both Trufuel, just 50:1 vs 40:1.

As I've said plenty of times, tune for what you're running. We battle on the forum about 11/164ths of a percent of a drop of oil difference, or dino vs. semi vs. syn, Jaso FB vs Jaso FD vs marine oil, but tuning makes a bigger difference than any of it. I'd rather run TCW3 marine oil with proper tune, than Jaso FD oil and improper tune.

Still think 100:1 is nutso. Before you can tune for the oil mix you're running, there actually has to be oil.


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## hotajax (Oct 21, 2022)

Get VP Fuels full synthetic and let your stuff run happy happy happy.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 21, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Running 40:1 Trufuel, refueled with the one can of 50:1, saw went super lean. Retuned for 50:1, used it up, went back to 40:1, had to retune again. All happened within an hour, same place, same altitude, same temp, same humidity, both Trufuel, just 50:1 vs 40:1.
> 
> As I've said plenty of times, tune for what you're running. We battle on the forum about 11/164ths of a percent of a drop of oil difference, or dino vs. semi vs. syn, Jaso FB vs Jaso FD vs marine oil, but tuning makes a bigger difference than any of it. I'd rather run TCW3 marine oil with proper tune, than Jaso FD oil and improper tune.
> 
> Still think 100:1 is nutso. Before you can tune for the oil mix you're running, there actually has to be oil.


I’d say that the different cans of trufuel was the issue here not the ratio. After all, trufuel is just ethanol free unleaded, it has a shelf life and will age differently depending on when it was made. I’m confident you’d not see that change if you used the same tank of pump gas and just changed the ratio by 1%.

Going super lean for 1% difference in mix doesn’t sound right. It may change the rpm by a very small margin noticable via a tachometer. 

I’ll report back tomorrow and happy to admit I’m wrong if I am.


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## HansFranz (Oct 21, 2022)

Did you try doing a search on the site for "oil thread"?

Last I checked, there were (approximately) 5,487,345,098,754,308,974,523,089,475 oil threads on the site. (And those are just from _*this month.*_)


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I’d say that the different cans of trufuel was the issue here not the ratio. After all, trufuel is just ethanol free unleaded, it has a shelf life and will age differently depending on when it was made. I’m confident you’d not see that change if you used the same tank of pump gas and just changed the ratio by 1%.
> 
> Going super lean for 1% difference in mix doesn’t sound right. It may change the rpm by a very small margin noticable via a tachometer.
> 
> I’ll report back tomorrow and happy to admit I’m wrong if I am.



Incorrect, at least in the USA. Tru-Fuel is alkylate petrol, a completely different formula from pump gas. Similar to avgas, without the lead.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I’d say that the different cans of trufuel was the issue here not the ratio. After all, trufuel is just ethanol free unleaded, it has a shelf life and will age differently depending on when it was made. I’m confident you’d not see that change if you used the same tank of pump gas and just changed the ratio by 1%.
> 
> Going super lean for 1% difference in mix doesn’t sound right. It may change the rpm by a very small margin noticable via a tachometer.
> 
> I’ll report back tomorrow and happy to admit I’m wrong if I am.


I've never run the stuff, but I think trufuel is higher octane then what can usually be found at the pump.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 21, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Incorrect, at least in the USA. Tru-Fuel is alkylate petrol, a completely different formula from pump gas. Similar to avgas, without the lead.


Tru-fuel Is not alkylate, it’s literally just 92 octane ethanol free unleaded petrol wjth 2 stroke oil and stabiliser. Motomix and aspen are alkylate fuels, trufuel isn’t.


----------



## skeet88 (Oct 21, 2022)




----------



## OM617YOTA (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Tru-fuel Is not alkylate, it’s literally just 92 octane ethanol free unleaded petrol wjth 2 stroke oil and stabiliser. Motomix and aspen are alkylate fuels, trufuel isn’t.
> 
> View attachment 1026142



The TruFuel safety data sheet disagrees with you.



https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/15/15a0d37f-afc6-4b71-8e4d-e50dc7a179e2.pdf



Just give it a sniff, you can tell it's not gasoline.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 21, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> The TruFuel safety data sheet disagrees with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah okk, my apologies, I looked into alkylate fuels quite a few times and never once saw Tru-Fuel’s website mention it! Good to know. I’ll let you know how things pan out tomorrow!


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## bwalker (Oct 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I’d say that the different cans of trufuel was the issue here not the ratio. After all, trufuel is just ethanol free unleaded, it has a shelf life and will age differently depending on when it was made. I’m confident you’d not see that change if you used the same tank of pump gas and just changed the ratio by 1%.
> 
> Going super lean for 1% difference in mix doesn’t sound right. It may change the rpm by a very small margin noticable via a tachometer.
> 
> I’ll report back tomorrow and happy to admit I’m wrong if I am.


True fuel is not just ethanol free unleaded.


----------



## bwalker (Oct 21, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I just can't fathom this. Zero reason to play the "how close to running my engine without oil can I get?" game. It's like going to the desert and trying to live on as little water as possible, or draining 3 quarts of oil out of your car's engine, and driving around on the remaining 2 quarts. More oil seals rings better, makes more power, lubes better, cools better, and good oil even runs cleaner, due to more detergents being present in the greater amount of oil. Just absolutely zero reason to even attempt this.
> 
> If I took my equipment to a shop, and they put 100:1 mix in it, harsh words would be spoken, and they would never see a single penny of my money ever again.


Exactly. Only a fool runs 100:1.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 21, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> @North by Northwest he ran the cheapo blackmax 2 cycle oil at walmart all summer with no problems around here it is 0.96 cents per 2.6 ounce bottle or 7.97 for the 16 ounce squeeze bottle.


Yeah , tried to blow the dam old trimmer up with it . I picked it up in Feb when I was at the I-500 snowmobile race . Actually cleaned up the ports pretty well after a few weeks running it hard . I'am all out , may buy some more next trip to Wally World in Michigan next month during Black powder / Rifle season !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Exactly. Only a fool runs 100:1.


I have run Saber @ 70:1 within a old 90 HP V-4 Evinrude for 10 yrs no issues . However in Air Cooled 50:1 is as lean as I feel comfortable brother !


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## jellyroll (Oct 21, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yeah , tried to blow the dam old trimmer up with it . I picked it up in Feb when I was at the I-500 snowmobile race . Actually cleaned up the ports pretty well after a few weeks running it hard . I'am all out , may buy some more next trip to Wally World in Michigan next month during Black powder / Rifle season !


You should try it in your sled lol.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 21, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> You should try it in your sled lol.


Sorry , but that ain't gonna happen pardner !


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## jellyroll (Oct 21, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> S
> 
> Sorry , but that ain't gonna happen pardner !


It has to be better than lucas.


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 21, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> It has to be better than lucas.


Sun tan lotions better than Lucas !


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## jellyroll (Oct 21, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Sun tan lotions better than Lucas !


Gary Goo?


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## North by Northwest (Oct 21, 2022)

I believe the Blackmax was $5 for the syn blend & $ 7 for the 100% syn for 16 oz bottles . For use & fishing camp trimming it was satisfactory , even was advertised with a stabilizer additive . It didn't smoke heavy or stink , same price as their Super-tech more or less !


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## skeet88 (Oct 21, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Now I have to go find some more oil. Not an everyday chainsawer like some, mainly running my string trimmer. Be Safe.





jellyroll said:


> It has to be better than lucas.





North by Northwest said:


> Sun tan lotions better than Lucas !


Ok ok enough already I am going to pour the Lucas mix in the lawnmower and get something better! Y’all Be Good! All jokes aside this thread has been both educational and entertaining!


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## North by Northwest (Oct 21, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Ok ok enough already I am going to pour the Lucas mix in the lawnmower and get something better! Y’all Be Good! All jokes aside this thread has been both educational and entertaining!


You , have a good one Skeet88.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

Do you have to retune an engine, if the only variable is changing the mix ratio.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

Also wanted to update you guys with Amsoil Saber 32:1. The first time I tested it I did 20 mins loaded by about 1000 rpm below max rpm - no longer 4 stroking, but I suppose, not really what an engine would see under use. I got a heap of carbon. 


So, I cleaned the piston and I re did the test, this time I did 60 seconds loaded by 3000 rpm, then 20 seconds idle - a bit more close to real world use. I repeated this for 20 minutes. This is exactly what I had hoped to see! I won’t run it at 32:1 still though, I’ll probably go to 40:1.


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## Tomos770 (Oct 22, 2022)

I came to an idea...

We dont have "proper 2stroke sparklug(s) colour" thread....

If you "google" that topic.....everyone is describing that propper colour should be "coffe brown"....BUT!

Since 2strokes has evolved (X-torq....2-mix...) and also 2stroke oils have also evolved....many sparkplugs nowadays look like that engine is running (slightly) on a lean side....

That makes me confused while I am reading my sparkplugs in my ****** equipement!

Should we have/get a separate topic/video about that?!

EDIT: **** stands for outdoor power equipement!


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> I came to an idea...
> 
> We dont have "proper 2stroke sparklug(s) colour" thread....
> 
> ...


I agree, modern oils and fuels don’t seem to give the brown indication they use to! 

For reference, the only thing different is the oil used here. Castor = brown, Synthetic = grey.


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## coffeebrk (Oct 22, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Also wanted to update you guys with Amsoil Saber 32:1. The first time I tested it I did 20 mins loaded by about 1000 rpm below max rpm - no longer 4 stroking, but I suppose, not really what an engine would see under use. I got a heap of carbon.


Heap of carbon? Gah! No Saber for me lol. Actually I've been using Red Armor but I've seen tests similar to your's using Sthil Ultra with same result.


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## Tomos770 (Oct 22, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I agree, modern oils and fuels don’t seem to give the brown indication they use to!
> 
> For reference, the only thing different is the oil used here. Castor = brown, Synthetic = grey.
> 
> ...


I have the same colour pattern on my huskqvarna 450 X-torq.....just slightly grey bcs I was using Motul 800 in the past use....I just tought that maybe it is set too lean or it has evolved an air leak somewhere.... 

Same with a trimmer (old tech though....piston ported).....it is clearly 4stroking @WOT....but its spark plug looks like if it would run lean 

What confuses me the most is absence of so called "fuel ring" on the sparkplug itself....


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## Tomos770 (Oct 22, 2022)

It came to the point.....that I have bought a blister of Stihl HP mineral oil.....so that I will see if sparkplugs will become "coffe brown" with use


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## huskihl (Oct 22, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Also wanted to update you guys with Amsoil Saber 32:1. The first time I tested it I did 20 mins loaded by about 1000 rpm below max rpm - no longer 4 stroking, but I suppose, not really what an engine would see under use. I got a heap of carbon.



Are you sure that piston got cleaned off after using ultra? Or another oil? That doesn’t look like just a couple hours use and I’ve never seen saber leave a carbon pattern like that


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

Not sure where you read a couple of hours, It was 20 minutes each time. Yes I’m certain the piston was clean at the start of the test. Never used ultra in it, Amsoil was the only fuel used during the test. 

It was actually two different strimmers I repaired this week, but for the ease of writing, I just wrote “cleaned the piston” The first image was the stihl strimmer, second was a pope. Stihl was ran loaded by 1000 rpm and left a dirty piston, pope by 3,000 rpm and it was light tan on the crown.

It’s also worth noting, the intake and exhaust in the stihl both go out the back of the engine. I presume that will drastically change swirl pattern?

Stihl cleaned before test: 






Pope cleaned before second test


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 22, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Do you have to retune an engine, if the only variable is changing the mix ratio.




How a string trimmer reacts isn't applicable to a chainsaw that four strokes out of the cut, and then doesn't.

Back with bean oil, when the oil mostly just got blown out the exhaust and not burned, yes a richer oil mix meant less fuel for the same carb settings. Modern(meaning the last 30 years) oils burn with the fuel, and contribute to the BTU content of the fuel. A richer oil mix means more fuel for the same carb settings.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 22, 2022)

I’ll Have to try to grab a pic of the piston from one of my saws that I run saber in, but they are spotless clean.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> How a string trimmer reacts isn't applicable to a chainsaw that four strokes out of the cut, and then doesn't.


It’s identical. A string trimmer should 4 stroke out of load then clean up under load…


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 22, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> It’s identical. A string trimmer should 4 stroke out of load then clean up under load…



You might have me there, that's not something I've seen before. Still not what you tested in the video, though.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> You might have me there, that's not something I've seen before. Still not what you tested in the video, though.


Yep it was, if you see at the start it’s 8000 rpm with normal length line. I then say I’m going to load it up by putting extra line on. I put longer line on to load up the powerhead to replicate it running under a consistent load. It dropped it by 3,000 rpm. Then I started the testing.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 22, 2022)

I'll have to relisten for 4 stroking with normal line, then smoothing out after you add load.


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## jellyroll (Oct 22, 2022)

I don't have a guard on my trimmer and with about 20 inches of line it is 4 stroking out of the grass but smooths out under load. 
Even running crappy api tc or jaso fb oils the engine will stay clean internally.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 22, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I'll have to relisten for 4 stroking with normal line, then smoothing out after you add load.


I speed it up in the video, but here is the clip not sped up to hear 4 stroking.

View attachment IMG_8594.MOV


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Are you sure that piston got cleaned off after using ultra? Or another oil? That doesn’t look like just a couple hours use and I’ve never seen saber leave a carbon pattern like that


I don't known of anyone running Saber that rich , 40:1 is it usually & very clean !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> It’s identical. A string trimmer should 4 stroke out of load then clean up under load…


Same 2t engine principals , perhaps not the same high compression as within Commercial chainsaws although probably reasonably close . Most of the top 3 world class saw manufacturers also provide trimmers , brushcutters & blowers ! . I know brushing would simulate the loading of saw cutting , rather well lol.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 23, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Same 2t engine principals , perhaps not the same high compression as within Commercial chainsaws although probably reasonably close . Most of the top 3 world class saw manufacturer s also provide trimmers , brushcutters & blowers ! . I know brushing would simulate the loading of saw cutting , rather well lol.


Yeah very close if not the same 160-180 psi ised is typical on the ones I’ve tested.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> How a string trimmer reacts isn't applicable to a chainsaw that four strokes out of the cut, and then doesn't.
> 
> Back with bean oil, when the oil mostly just got blown out the exhaust and not burned, yes a richer oil mix meant less fuel for the same carb settings. Modern(meaning the last 30 years) oils burn with the fuel, and contribute to the BTU content of the fuel. A richer oil mix means more fuel for the same carb settings.


More oil = less fuel in the fuel mixture since its replaced by oil !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Yeah very close if not the same 160-180 psi ised is typical on the ones I’ve tested.


That's spot on with stock homeowner class saws.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 23, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> That's spot on with stock homeowner class saws !


These are used top ends at 160-180, not new


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## sean donato (Oct 23, 2022)

Didn't you use new rings Tom? Typically you'll gain some compression once the ring beds in.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> These are used top ends at 160-180, not new


Then there is little wear , thats typical compressions readings , 160-165 # & 175-180 # . Sometimes higher on prograde or ported units . Are these cold readings ?


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## jellyroll (Oct 23, 2022)

Funny one of my clone saws is pushing 190 lol. my old husqvarna 61 is a little under 150.


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## sean donato (Oct 23, 2022)

Lots of variables for compression ranges....


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## jellyroll (Oct 23, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Lots of variables for compression ranges....


My craftsman S145 is pushing 190 and the performance for a stock saw is pretty good compared to other box store wonders.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 23, 2022)

I did a fuel line service on an old Echo SRM225 with 82# compression.... it still started and ran "decent"... LOL. The owner was tickled pink that his $35 unit investment runs. Still running to this day.....


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Lots of variables for compression ranges....


Absolutely Sean , testing variables with or without a Schrader valve , type of test conditions etc .


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## sean donato (Oct 23, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Absolutely Sean , testing variables with or without a Schrader valve , type of test conditions etc .


I was thinking more along the lines of combustion chamber size, carbon build up, ring wear ect. But yes. Test equipment and testing conditions defintaly make a difference too.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 23, 2022)

sean donato said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of combustion chamber size, carbon build up, ring wear ect. But yes. Test equipment and testing conditions defintaly make a difference too.


Well that's quite correct . That is why i initially mentioned stock saws , where the variables are less with higher squish area & lower relative compression ratios . I was also assuming engines in "good state of repair " , apples to apples as much as possible . Secondarily is the accuracy of the testing equipment & the testing protocols as mentioned . I have witnessed testing results all over the board , with very inaccurate readings due to improper testing equipment . However , the contributing factors you have highlighted most definately affect the testing readings accordingly lol.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 23, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Then there is little wear , thats typical compressions readings , 160-165 # & 175-180 # . Sometimes higher on prograde or ported units . Are these cold readings ?


Yes sir cold readings


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## Husky77 (Oct 25, 2022)

I got a husqvarna 550xp starts great runs great and cuts perfect, like a new saw.... yet after testing with three gauges its showing cold, wait for it....
115psi. Work that out because I'm mystified, piston, ring and cylinder all perfect.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 25, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> I got a husqvarna 550xp starts great runs great and cuts perfect, like a new saw.... yet after testing with three gauges its showing cold, wait for it....
> 115psi. Work that out because I'm mystified, piston, ring and cylinder all perfect.


If you don't have a schrader valve or too long of a hose , etc readings will be inconsistant . Also i run my saw 1st to warm the bore & piston & lube the rings prior to 5 good pulls with tester . I have seen + or - 5 # difference routinely with various guages . I have seen many saws hardly want to start at 100 # or less . I would assume your saw is probably much higher that 115 # .


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 25, 2022)

What are you guys running for compression testers? I have a harbor freight one and a Amazon one, burn with about 1’ hoses and they always read way lower then that I would like to see.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 25, 2022)

This... but of course it's no longer made I think.... Got mine of eBay 3 yrs ago.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 25, 2022)

This may work...









Lang TU-21C Small Engine Compression Tester | eBay


Lang Tools. Small Engine Compression Tester. Tester Assembled in the USA w/ Global Parts. Will test all small engines with M14 or M18 threads.



www.ebay.com


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 25, 2022)

Found the equivalent to mine but damn that a premium price! Think I only paid $38.00 at the time...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2931247571...KKvJMpa2lIounTv1nocQJ+Ko8=|tkp:Bk9SR5DM84yCYQ


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## North by Northwest (Oct 25, 2022)

I have a Snap on unit for my Snowmobiles & Dirt bikes , also a Mityvac for my saws & trimmers & blowers .


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 25, 2022)

I too have the Mityvac kit for automotive.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 25, 2022)

Chevboy0167 said:


> I too have the Mityvac kit for automotive.


For Automobile / Diesel application I have a Lang Industries tester . It is a multi tester for compression / vacuum & refrigeration & cooling testing requirements . The Mityvac though is a very fine unit for small engine usage with a great price point .


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## sean donato (Oct 25, 2022)

Snap on, gas and diesel compression testers. Well I have 2 or 3 sets of the gas testers. Someone borrows it, I forget who has it and buy a new set then the old set come back. No one gets to use my diesel set.


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## huskihl (Oct 25, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> I got a husqvarna 550xp starts great runs great and cuts perfect, like a new saw.... yet after testing with three gauges its showing cold, wait for it....
> 115psi. Work that out because I'm mystified, piston, ring and cylinder all perfect.


I believe the 550 uses the smaller spark plug? If so, you’ll have an adapter that screws onto the end of your compression tester to fit the smaller spark plug hole. Most of these adapters don’t have a Schrader valve in the end of it and you will get low readings with them


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## Tomos770 (Oct 26, 2022)

Yes.....it has CMR6H sparkplug...


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Also wanted to update you guys with Amsoil Saber 32:1. The first time I tested it I did 20 mins loaded by about 1000 rpm below max rpm - no longer 4 stroking, but I suppose, not really what an engine would see under use. I got a heap of carbon. View attachment 1026277
> 
> 
> So, I cleaned the piston and I re did the test, this time I did 60 seconds loaded by 3000 rpm, then 20 seconds idle - a bit more close to real world use. I repeated this for 20 minutes. This is exactly what I had hoped to see! I won’t run it at 32:1 still though, I’ll probably go to 40:1.View attachment 1026278
> ...


Your results do not supprise me. To make an engine live at that ratio requires a thicker base oil, and mettalic AW additives. That head shows mettalic ash buildup.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2022)

No


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2022)

sean donato said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of combustion chamber size, carbon build up, ring wear ect. But yes. Test equipment and testing conditions defintaly make a difference too.


Hombrewed tests are nearly worthless.


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## sean donato (Oct 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Hombrewed tests are nearly worthless.


In what regard?


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2022)

sean donato said:


> In what regard?


The validity.


----------



## sean donato (Oct 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The validity.


In what aspect? Compression tests, or the "test" Tom did with the mix ratios?


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 27, 2022)

sean donato said:


> In what aspect? Compression tests, or the "test" Tom did with the mix ratios?


Hey hey hey, why the speech marks?! Cheeky bugger LOL.


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## sean donato (Oct 27, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Hey hey hey, why the speech marks?! Cheeky bugger LOL.


Lol, don't take offence Tom.


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## bwalker (Oct 27, 2022)

sean donato said:


> In what aspect? Compression tests, or the "test" Tom did with the mix ratios?


All of the above.
Measuring static compression is pretty much useless. What is useful is to know the compression ratio. After all you can have a 180psi static compression, but have a low compression ratio.
Oil testing is a joke because there is no control of variable and there are tons of variables.


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## sean donato (Oct 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> All of the above.
> Measuring static compression is pretty much useless. What is useful is to know the compression ratio. After all you can have a 180psi static compression, but have a low compression ratio.
> Oil testing is a joke because there is no control of variable and there are tons of


We're just gonna have to disagree about a compression test vs ratio. They tell you different things, one in of its self isn't anymore or less important. You can have a 30 to 1 ratio and still only have 50psi of compression. 
The oil bit, yeah I can agree with that.


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## bwalker (Oct 27, 2022)

sean donato said:


> We're just gonna have to disagree about a compression test vs ratio. They tell you different things, one in of its self isn't anymore or less important. You can have a 30 to 1 ratio and still only have 50psi of compression.
> The oil bit, yeah I can agree with that.


 Static is somewhat useful for gauging engine wear, bit even then it a pretty coarse measure and often engines have good static compression until they dont.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Oct 27, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Lol, don't take offence Tom.


Of course not buddy I’m just joking


----------



## flh69 (Oct 29, 2022)

Lots of negative replies abut the Stihl Ultra. Been using it for quite a while in all my 2 stroke equipment with no problems. I am out of oil so I just ordered some Echo Red Armor because of the good reviews. reviews. What is the biggest problem with the Stihl Ultra??


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## huskihl (Oct 29, 2022)

flh69 said:


> Lots of negative replies abut the Stihl Ultra. Been using it for quite a while in all my 2 stroke equipment with no problems. I am out of oil so I just ordered some Echo Red Armor because of the good reviews. reviews. What is the biggest problem with the Stihl Ultra??


It leaves carbon and doesn’t leave much oil in the bottom end. Red Armor is the opposite


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## bwalker (Oct 29, 2022)

flh69 said:


> Lots of negative replies abut the Stihl Ultra. Been using it for quite a while in all my 2 stroke equipment with no problems. I am out of oil so I just ordered some Echo Red Armor because of the good reviews. reviews. What is the biggest problem with the Stihl Ultra??


It's an oil formulated to help with issues in a four cycle 4 mix motor. It's not optimized for a 2cycle chain saw. And it's even worse in a computer controlled carb strato charged saw.


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## link (Oct 29, 2022)

I use fully synthetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil at 40:1 (2,5% oil), any objections?


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## North by Northwest (Oct 29, 2022)

link said:


> I use fully synthetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil at 40:1 (2,5% oil), any objections?


Not , with you Chess master !


----------



## Chevboy0167 (Oct 29, 2022)

link said:


> I use fully synthetic 2-stroke motorcycle oil at 40:1 (2,5% oil), any objections?


I'll bite... is the oil rated for air cooled engines?


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## Woody912 (Oct 30, 2022)

flh69 said:


> Lots of negative replies abut the Stihl Ultra. Been using it for quite a while in all my 2 stroke equipment with no problems. I am out of oil so I just ordered some Echo Red Armor because of the good reviews. reviews. What is the biggest problem with the Stihl Ultra??


been using it in my 036 Pro since 2003. Works for me


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## MacAttack (Oct 30, 2022)

Folks seem to forget that there are air-cooled dirtbikes and snowmobiles. 

I used Pennzoil snowmobile oil in all my 2-strokes for about 15 years, never had an issue.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

Some folks forget to specify if said machines ARE in fact air cooled or liquid cooled....


----------



## jellyroll (Oct 30, 2022)

Chevboy0167 said:


> Some folks forget to specify if said machines ARE in fact air cooled or liquid cooled....


Mine is beer cooled.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Mine is beer cooled.


I like it already!


----------



## jellyroll (Oct 30, 2022)

I use this at ratios from 24:1 to 50:1 the cost is 9.99 per qt.
Blended for maximum engine protection with fuel stabilizer 2 cycle synthetic blend.

Special low ash additives reduce wear
Blended with fuel stabilizer and high quality base stocks
Ace 2 cycle low ash engine oil meets or exceeds all requirements for 2 cycle air cooled engines


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

My "I'll bite" post was an attempt of humor for the "Any objections" question. Let's be real, someone would ask it sooner or later. Do I really care??? NO. Use what works for you, It's your equipment.

Let's take it down about 15% bud...


----------



## jellyroll (Oct 30, 2022)

Chevboy0167 said:


> My "I'll bite" post was an attempt of humor for the "Any objections" question. Let's be real, someone would ask it sooner or later. Do I really care??? NO. Use what works for you, It's your equipment.
> 
> Let's take her down about 15% bud...


I'll use any oil but i won't use stihl ultra  .


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## Abbeville TSI (Oct 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's an oil formulated to help with issues in a four cycle 4 mix motor. It's not optimized for a 2cycle chain saw. And it's even worse in a computer controlled carb strato charged saw.


How will my 4 mix pole saw engine react to using Red Armor instead using Stihl Ultra or Motomix? I still have some Motomix on hand wondering if I should continue to use it in the tank, or use it for cleaning the workbench? My other Stihls seem to enjoy the Red Armor 50:1 mix. I am not a commercial user.


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## Lionsfan (Oct 30, 2022)

Abbeville TSI said:


> How will my 4 mix pole saw engine react to using Red Armor instead using Stihl Ultra or Motomix? I still have some Motomix on hand wondering if I should continue to use it in the tank, or use it for cleaning the workbench? My other Stihls seem to enjoy the Red Armor 50:1 mix. I am not a commercial user.


I'm curious too. I went to Saber acouple years ago in mine and haven't had any issues YET.


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## MacAttack (Oct 30, 2022)

All I'm saying is that the argument "you can't use snowmobile or motorcycle 2-cycle oil in a chainsaw unless it's specified for air-cooled engines" is baseless because they have to be formulated to accommodate air-cooled snowmobiles and dirtbikes. I used Pennzoil snowmobile oil in MANY air-cooled saws, trimmers, ATVs, snowmobiles....

I've never seen a "liquid cooled engines only" dirtbike or snowmobile oil, not saying it doesn't exist.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

No argument here... to an extent. Any oil is better than straight gas no? Heck, I would think even 10w-30 or the like would be better than nothing.... in an extreme pinch. 

Point is the rated oils perform "better" at certain engine temps. Keeping the engine/muffler cleaner of carbon deposits and the like.

I don't know it all either... just a keyboard warrior like the rest of us with some past life experiences. And with that....


----------



## bwalker (Oct 30, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> All I'm saying is that the argument "you can't use snowmobile or motorcycle 2-cycle oil in a chainsaw unless it's specified for air-cooled engines" is baseless because they have to be formulated to accommodate air-cooled snowmobiles and dirtbikes. I used Pennzoil snowmobile oil in MANY air-cooled saws, trimmers, ATVs, snowmobiles....
> 
> I've never seen a "liquid cooled engines only" dirtbike or snowmobile oil, not saying it doesn't exist.


Snowmobile or motorcycle oils are typically water cooled, but they spec jaso Fc/Fd low ash or "aircooled" type oils. Outboards, lanwboy mowers spec marine type ashless oils.
You need to think of it in terms of low ash vs ashless.


----------



## skeet88 (Oct 30, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Mine is beer cooled.


Import or Domestic


----------



## Sawdust Man (Oct 30, 2022)

I'm late to the party here....but.....we raise hogs....what do y'all think of using lard for 2-cycle lube? gotta a bunch of extra lard.....


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

Sawdust Man said:


> I'm late to the party here....but.....we raise hogs....what do y'all think of using lard for 2-cycle lube? gotta a bunch of extra lard.....


Might make great assembly lube???


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 30, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I use this at ratios from 24:1 to 50:1 the cost is 9.99 per qt.
> Blended for maximum engine protection with fuel stabilizer 2 cycle synthetic blend.
> 
> Special low ash additives reduce wear
> ...


Just one of his "Special 11 herbs & Spices Blend" !


----------



## flh69 (Oct 30, 2022)

Sawdust Man said:


> I'm late to the party here....but.....we raise hogs....what do y'all think of using lard for 2-cycle lube? gotta a bunch of extra lard.....


That sounds good to me. It might smell like frying sausage while you're cutting wood. That would really beef up your appetite when you are done cutting. Add a little country ham fat and you really hit pay dirt.


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## Sawdust Man (Oct 30, 2022)

flh69 said:


> That sounds good to me. It might smell like frying sausage while you're cutting wood. That would really beef up your appetite when you are done cutting. Add a little country ham fat and you really hit pay dirt.


Okay, I'm in....
What ratio? 50:1 or do you think I outta mix it a little thicker, say 32:1......we don't want too much carbon build up....lol.


----------



## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

We had some animal based grease from Lubriplate where I work. Company had to get rid of it for some reason, so I was given 3 pints to take home free. Dull white in color and smelled a bit funny compared to other greases.


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## MacAttack (Oct 30, 2022)

Chevboy0167 said:


> No argument here... to an extent. Any oil is better than straight gas no? Heck, I would think even 10w-30 or the like would be better than nothing.... in an extreme pinch.
> 
> Point is the rated oils perform "better" at certain engine temps. Keeping the engine/muffler cleaner of carbon deposits and the like.
> 
> ...


Ha yeah I was not specifically trying to pick a fight with ya or anything, and this topic is sooooo beaten to death, there's no valid argument against using whatever oil is formulated specifically for whatever you're using.
In fact, many newer snowmobile oils have some additives removed to avoid gumming up variable exhaust valves, so a true air-cooled chainsaw oil is going to have additional additives anyway, that's why I use Echo oil these days.


----------



## Chevboy0167 (Oct 30, 2022)

No worries Mac.


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## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> More important than which oil you choose, is learning to tune your saw properly. Plenty more saws are killed by a bad tune, than are killed by running the wrong two stroke oil. Lots of videos on YT.


Interesting. Care to summarize what are top three factors most important to tuning? I just bought a Stihl 461.


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## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

mark3885 said:


> Any quality synthetic 2 stroke oil mixed at 40:1 and non ethanol gasoline.


why not 50:1 per Stihl's OEM spec?


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## skeet88 (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> why not 50:1 per Stihl's OEM spec?


40:1 gives a little insurance it will have plenty of oil. Then a proper tune like @OM617YOTA suggests. Be Safe!


----------



## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

Backstage said:


> I’ll bite!
> 
> Trying Amsoil saber at that ratio this year. Obviously no results to report yet, but there’s more than a few folks who are running this way.
> 
> ...


hmmm. So, are you running, say Stihl saws at 100:1? . . . and, if so, have you checked over a long period of time the wear on pistons buy pulling the muffler and photographing the cyliinder face at some interval or months or years? 
I use Stihl saws and, apparently this terrible(!) Stihl oil at 50:1 that everyone is ragging on; cut lots of oaks on my property each year, but maybe not enough to see a problem. . . Love to know what to look for as typical signals my saw should be running some OTHER oil.


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> Interesting. Care to summarize what are top three factors most important to tuning? I just bought a Stihl 461.


Full tank of fresh fuel & mix , new spark plug properly gapped , clean air & fuel filter . Then tune until it 4 strokes out of the cut & clears up in the cut . Depending on you hearing a tach can help !


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> why not 50:1 per Stihl's OEM spec?


You can run 50:1 with quality oil , tune is more important . As Skeet mentioned 40:1 gives you room for error which is quite correct !


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> hmmm. So, are you running, say Stihl saws at 100:1? . . . and, if so, have you checked over a long period of time the wear on pistons buy pulling the muffler and photographing the cyliinder face at some interval or months or years?
> I use Stihl saws and, apparently this terrible(!) Stihl oil at 50:1 that everyone is ragging on; cut lots of oaks on my property each year, but maybe not enough to see a problem. . . Love to know what to look for as typical signals my saw should be running some OTHER oil.


Ultra was never intended for 2 cycle saws rather 4-mix trimmers & blowers !


----------



## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

bwalker said:


> That's exactly it.
> That and I know what it costs to make a gallon of alkylate. It's not near $27 per gallon. In fact it's under $5 a gallon.


Well, at a $20/ gal premium over reg fuel I wonder how long it will take to pay for preventing a ruined engine from, say 2x or 3x the OEM's gasil ratio in the gas at all??! (Because THAT is what it will take to hash an engine, not using Stihl Ultra or other non-"acceptable" oil being mentioned.)

SO, let's calculate!
-- say a new Stihl saw costs $1000 and you put 10 gal/yr through it AND you use this woooonnndderful mixed gas: 10 gal/yr x $20 extra each gallon = $200 out of your pocket ea yr more.
-- So, you can look at it this way: you pay $200/yr to put off buying a new saw in 5 yrs 

On the other hand, I would guess nearly 100% of saw owners using the, _now_ infamous, Stihl Ultra at a 50:1 ratio find their saws last at least 10 years. (My 362 has -- pristine cylinder face and light tan plug; my 025C is still running at 25+ yrs old.)

I can now rationalize I have saved $2000 on the 362 over 10 years and _much more_ with the 025C.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> Well, at a $20/ gal premium over reg fuel I wonder how long it will take to pay for preventing a ruined engine from, say 2x or 3x the OEM's gasil ratio in the gas at all??! (Because THAT is what it will take to hash an engine, not using Stihl Ultra or other non-"acceptable" oil being mentioned.)
> 
> SO, let's calculate!
> -- say a new Stihl saw costs $1000 and you put 10 gal/yr through it AND you use this woooonnndderful mixed gas: 10 gal/yr x $20 extra each gallon = $200 out of your pocket ea yr more.
> ...


All that cipering is giving me a headache


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## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

ladnar said:


> I'm an amateur, My collection is up to 17 saws now, some running some not, I used to use Stihl oil, because it was Stihl and expensive and I figured it was good, switched to Red Armor and my saws really woke up, can't believe an oil can make such a big difference in the way they run. Just my 2 cents,


All I have heard is ad hominem complaints against Stihl oils here. No _*data*_ except some folks are saying things like I ran regular oil, _whatever was on sale_, at ratio of one quart per 5 gal(20:1) and the saw lost a bit of power at about 2000 hrs. Nothing that indicates extra wear due to Stihl oil itself. 

However YOUR post at least gives me SOME reason to use Red Armor instead of saying: "I use this stuff."
I will try to find some of that Red Armor. I have never heard of it before today; never seen it for sale at any home store, or Fleet Farm, or Menards or anything. It must be available on line! ONLY!


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## coffeebrk (Oct 31, 2022)

I buy Red Armor at Blains and Home Depot


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## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Full tank of fresh fuel & mix , new spark plug properly gapped , clean air & fuel filter . Then tune until it 4 strokes out of the cut & clears up in the cut . Depending on you hearing a tach can help !


OK, I do all that-- _except the most important part_. I am now showing my ignorance, be gentle.
So, can you please detail these important points!

"tune until it 4 strokes out of the cut."
AND
"Clears up in the cut" ?? huh?

by the way I have a tach, at least! never used it.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> Interesting. Care to summarize what are top three factors most important to tuning? I just bought a Stihl 461.



I've read some more of your posts. You're here for a fight, not to learn. Not interested.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Oct 31, 2022)

VP Racing 100% for me and close to half the cost (depending which store you buy VP in) of the red armor semi. Both FD


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## MacAttack (Oct 31, 2022)

What I'd love to know....who actually makes those oils for both brands? 

Plot twist: Red Armor is just rebranded Stihl Ultra with red dye. (joking...but who knows???)


----------



## jellyroll (Oct 31, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> What I'd love to know....who actually makes those oils for both brands?
> 
> Plot twist: Red Armor is just rebranded Stihl Ultra with red dye. (joking...but who knows???)


Red armor is made by Phillips 66
Stihl ultra is made by Omni.
Vp i couldn't say but it isn't even close to red armor.


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## MacAttack (Oct 31, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Red armor is made by Phillips 66
> Stihl ultra is made by Omni.
> Vp i couldn't say but it isn't even close to red armor.


Thanks for the info!


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## Backstage (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> OK, I do all that-- _except the most important part_. I am now showing my ignorance, be gentle.
> So, can you please detail these important points!
> 
> "tune until it 4 strokes out of the cut."
> ...


“4 stroking” is that gargling drowning growl sound saws make. You have too much fuel in the fuel/air mix, and you end up not combusting 100% and every fey cycles it skips. That means you have extra fuel IMMEDIATELY available in the cylinder when you add air by hitting the throttle. 

The “cleared up” sound is exactly what it sounds like. It changes from sounding like it’s a bit ticked at not being cutting wood to a pure, enthusiastic roar.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Oct 31, 2022)

I used RA before they switched the formula in a $700 new Echo 280 PAS to the cheapened version they sell now for the same high price. Was good back then. VP does the same thing RA did for way less money. 
Some folks just like to stuff others pockets IMHO, I prefer to protect my equipment and keep the money in mine.  










2-Stroke Oil: VP Full Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil | VP Racing Fuels


VP synthetic 2-stroke oil | High Detergency Formula | 2.6 oz./$3.49 | JASO FD certified | Provides industry-leading performance.




vpracingfuels.com


----------



## coffeebrk (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> Well, at a $20/ gal premium over reg fuel I wonder how long it will take to pay for preventing a ruined engine from, say 2x or 3x the OEM's gasil ratio in the gas at all??! (Because THAT is what it will take to hash an engine, not using Stihl Ultra or other non-"acceptable" oil being mentioned.)
> 
> SO, let's calculate!
> -- say a new Stihl saw costs $1000 and you put 10 gal/yr through it AND you use this woooonnndderful mixed gas: 10 gal/yr x $20 extra each gallon = $200 out of your pocket ea yr more.
> ...


----------



## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I've read some more of your posts. You're here for a fight, not to learn. Not interested.


Well, you would be wrong. 
Just trying to get at the meat of things.
Main conclusion start use the Red Armor stuff.
Second conclusion learn how to "tune by ear", certainly, without YOUR help! So, thanks just the same.


----------



## schreib69 (Oct 31, 2022)

Backstage said:


> “4 stroking” is that gargling drowning growl sound saws make. You have too much fuel in the fuel/air mix, and you end up not combusting 100% and every fey cycles it skips. That means you have extra fuel IMMEDIATELY available in the cylinder when you add air by hitting the throttle.
> 
> The “cleared up” sound is exactly what it sounds like. It changes from sounding like it’s a bit ticked at not being cutting wood to a pure, enthusiastic roar.


Wow, thanks. I have a clue now. It seems best to start fiddling with my carb screw and listen for this difference. I have never done that; just turn it out the 1.5 turns per Stihl's book. Mainly because I have never been trained in the "art" of tuning like most of you here have been. . . thank you.


----------



## sean donato (Oct 31, 2022)

Just showed up...


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## bwalker (Oct 31, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Ha yeah I was not specifically trying to pick a fight with ya or anything, and this topic is sooooo beaten to death, there's no valid argument against using whatever oil is formulated specifically for whatever you're using.
> In fact, many newer snowmobile oils have some additives removed to avoid gumming up variable exhaust valves, so a true air-cooled chainsaw oil is going to have additional additives anyway, that's why I use Echo oil these days.


A modern snowmobile oil will be Jaso FC/FD.


----------



## bwalker (Oct 31, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> VP Racing 100% for me and close to half the cost (depending which store you buy VP in) of the red armor semi. Both FD
> 
> View attachment 1028782
> View attachment 1028783


You can't go wrong with either. Both are genuine JaSO FD certified oils.


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## bwalker (Oct 31, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> I used RA before they switched the formula in a $700 new Echo 280 PAS to the cheapened version they sell now for the same high price. Was good back then. VP does the same thing RA did for way less money.
> Some folks just like to stuff others pockets IMHO, I prefer to protect my equipment and keep the money in mine.
> 
> 
> ...


Why do you assume they cheapened the formula?


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 31, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> OK, I do all that-- _except the most important part_. I am now showing my ignorance, be gentle.
> So, can you please detail these important points!
> 
> "tune until it 4 strokes out of the cut."
> ...


Basically , and no offence intended . To keep it simple , you want the saw borderline rich within fuel to air ratio or "tuned a little fat" so that with no load it will blubber a little (4 stroke) . Once into the cut it will clean out & pick up some rpm . The old school Methology was to 1st bring the saw up to operating temperature , then turn the high speed jet in or out to achieve maximum rpm @ WOT & then back it off a 1/4 turn . This would provide the maximum (lean) rpm initially . But would then provide a little more fuel to protect from overheating . It was sketchy at best but a starting point . Anyhow , also you had to set the low speed to allow easy starting and acceleration or throttle up without hesitation . Then finally a proper idle speed allowing for as easy cold start , without too high a idle once warm . Hope this helps brother , much easier to indicate in person than describe ! lol .


----------



## MacAttack (Oct 31, 2022)

bwalker said:


> A modern snowmobile oil will be Jaso FC/FD.


I still use Klotz Techniplate in my old Polaris 700 triple, no idea what it's rated, but after 26 years my engine is still going strong.
I have a few bottles of newer Cat and Skidoo synthetic oil laying around, I'll have to check the bottles.


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Nov 1, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Why do you assume they cheapened the formula?


Read up on it. I dont assume, they did.

I just refuse to pay more for less.

Guys in the know that used the old mentioned even yesterday they see the difference in the new and switched oils. 

Can even tell the difference by bottles when they switched to the new labels used today.

The newer cheapen formula they went to in new bottle at bottom.


----------



## skeet88 (Nov 1, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Just showed up...


Christmas on Halloween


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2022)

I hope everyone had a Safe & Enjoyable Halloween with the kids !


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## michael j (Nov 1, 2022)

schreib69 said:


> Wow, thanks. I have a clue now. It seems best to start fiddling with my carb screw and listen for this difference. I have never done that; just turn it out the 1.5 turns per Stihl's book. Mainly because I have never been trained in the "art" of tuning like most of you here have been. . . thank you.


Somewhere, there's a video on tuning. I know I saved it, but have no idea where. 

I'll be searching.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Read up on it. I dont assume, they did.
> 
> I just refuse to pay more for less.
> 
> ...


My four I gallon bottles are the 1st bottle label , that's the Original Blend ?


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Nov 1, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> My four I gallon bottles are the 1st bottle label , that's the Original Blend ?


All black background label was the original formula in past years back.

Been so many years now who knows what they have on them now. They could revert back to a black label who knows. 

I just dont fall for the bait switch they did to folks years back and still charge the high price. Like others I went to another FD oil.


----------



## echomeister (Nov 1, 2022)

They are different sized bottles. Maybe a more descriptive label for the bigger bottle ?


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Nov 1, 2022)

echomeister said:


> They are different sized bottles. Maybe a more descriptive label for the bigger bottle ?


Take a look to put your theory to rest. https://www.echo-usa.com/red-armor/red-armor-oil

New label that was used when changed to the cheapen formula.


----------



## Orbinrangle (Nov 1, 2022)

Paul Bunions said:


> I plan to get a big container of oil for my 2-stroke engines. Does it really matter which brand I get? More importantly, are there brands I should avoid?


I use a standard mineral oil in all my saws when not using Aspen, but I do also own a Suzuki GT750A. Not tried any decent synthetic oil in a saw with my own mix but I can say without doubt that the Suzuki runs a lot better on synthetic. But, as ever, quality is key. Don't buy the cheapest and I personally stick to brands that have a reputation to lose. Except Stihl. Their oil is surprisingly not very good--even their pre mix is a bit iffy.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Take a look to put your theory to rest. https://www.echo-usa.com/red-armor/red-armor-oil
> 
> New label that was used when changed to the cheapen formula.
> 
> View attachment 1029030


Ok , i recieved the original blend apparently . I will have to check the recipe . Likely a ester package added for more solvency or cleaning action , in the new formula .


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Nov 1, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ok , i recieved the original blend apparently . I will have to check the recipe . Likely a ester package added for more solvency or cleaning action , in the new formula .


Nope, they removed it in the newer formula.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Nope , they removed it in the newer formula.


There was a previous diester or ester adder package or base oil , i will check when i get home lol.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2022)

Orbinrangle said:


> I use a standard mineral oil in all my saws when not using Aspen, but I do also own a Suzuki GT750A. Not tried any decent synthetic oil in a saw with my own mix but I can say without doubt that the Suzuki runs a lot better on synthetic. But, as ever, quality is key. Don't buy the cheapest and I personally stick to brands that have a reputation to lose. Except Stihl. Their oil is surprisingly not very good--even their pre mix is a bit iffy.


The Suzuki water buffalo ?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Nope, they removed it in the newer formula.


Just checked , shows naptha as the solvency package now !


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## Orbinrangle (Nov 1, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> The Suzuki water buffalo ?


Yep. Known as a kettle over here.


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Read up on it. I dont assume, they did.
> 
> I just refuse to pay more for less.
> 
> ...


I have read up on it and the guys saying that are speculating at best. They are basing that idea on the fact the msds doesn't show ester. What they don't understand is esters aren't toxic snd as such don't need to be listed on the MSDS.


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Just checked , shows naptha as the solvency package now !


Naptha is the diluent..
Ester is a base oil..


----------



## MacAttack (Nov 1, 2022)

So Echo Power Blend and Red Armor are both semi-synthetics with fuel stabilizers and FD rated.... what the heck is supposed to be the difference? 
Maybe I'll just stick with Power Blend...


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> So Echo Power Blend and Red Armor are both semi-synthetics with fuel stabilizers and FD rated.... what the heck is supposed to be the difference?
> Maybe I'll just stick with Power Blend...


Certainly nothing wrong with that.


----------



## skeet88 (Nov 1, 2022)

Orbinrangle said:


> Yep. Known as a kettle over here.


 Curious as to what y’all are referring to.


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## MacAttack (Nov 2, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Curious as to what y’all are referring to.


Big old liquid cooled 2-stroke motorcycle, was a 750 triple I think.


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## skeet88 (Nov 2, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Big old liquid cooled 2-stroke motorcycle, was a 750 triple I think.


Cool! I didn’t know if it was a jet ski since Northwest mentioned a water buffalo. Be Safe.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Naptha is the diluent..
> Ester is a base oil..


Yeah , I said that


bwalker said:


> Naptha is the diluent..
> Ester is a base oil..


Yeah , that's what I indicated previously within post #360 Ben . I just received 4 gallons of the old formula all black just a few weeks ago . Never used the brand before . I want to use it this winter on the RXL . Since it really looked good according to Kevin's advice !


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## mark3885 (Nov 2, 2022)

MacAttack said:
Big old liquid cooled 2-stroke motorcycle, was a 750 triple I think.
My kids and I rebuilt a 76 Water Buffalo back in 1998 , a friend I did some work for gave me a brand new never fired 72 crate motor. It was in a show bike , every nut and bolt was cleaned and painted , it ran great but was a heavy bike. A friend had a Kawasaki H2 750 triple 2 stroke back then in our youth .


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Nov 2, 2022)

I have scar tissue on knuckles from laying down a 2 cycle Kaw back in guessing - 80. Was the 750 only one they made? 
I never paid attention to details back then.


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## hosocat (Nov 2, 2022)

I had forgotten that 750 Suzuki was nick named the water buffalo!! That was a great Era for motorcycling and cars.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> I have scar tissue on knuckles from laying down a 2 cycle Kaw back in guessing - 80. Was the 750 only one they made?
> I never paid attention to details back then.


I had a 1974 H2 Mach IV 750 triple , prior had a 1972 H1 Mach III & 1969 H1 Blue Streak the 1st Kawi triple . Real rocketships , especially once you wicked them up to 6000 rpm . The Water Buffalo was also nick named the flexi flyer . Heavier bike , due to the water jackets & associated rad & electric fan & piping & hoses , however very smooth & deceptively quick !


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## Orbinrangle (Nov 2, 2022)

Yes it is heavy, but well behaved on the road, unlike the H1 and H2. Photo taken when chauffeuring a friend's son to his school prom. Bit off subject here now, I think.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

Orbinrangle said:


> Yes it is heavy, but well behaved on the road, unlike the H1 and H2. Photo taken when chauffeuring a friend's son to his school prom. Bit off subject here now, I think.


Actually a very smooth tourer , in a pinch lol.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I had a 1974 H2 Mach IV 750 triple , prior had a 1972 H1 Mach III & 1969 H1 Blue Streak the 1st Kawi triple . Real rocketships , especially once you wicked them up to 6000 rpm . The Water Buffalo was also nick named the flexi flyer . Heavy bike due to the water jackets & associated rad & electric fan & piping & hoses , however very smooth & deceptively quick !


MY father in law had a Mach IV. Said it was very powerful and handled like dog chit.
I actually owned a KR Special Yamaha RZ 350 and a Daytona Special RD400 at one time. I was offered a stupid sum of money by a guy who wanted both. The problem is the prices have gotten even more stupid since. I really regret selling them.
It's really a shame that Yamaha or KTM hasn't used some modern low emmissions tech to get two strokes back on the road.


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## Orbinrangle (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> MY father in law had a Mach IV. Said it was very powerful and handled like dog chit.
> I actually owned a KR Special Yamaha RZ 350 and a Daytona Special RD400 at one time. I was offered a stupid sum of money by a guy who wanted both. The problem is the prices have gotten even more stupid since. I really regret selling them.
> It's really a shame that Yamaha or KTM hasn't used some modern low emmissions tech to get two strokes back on the road.


I was loaned an RD250LC whilst the bike shown had an engine rebuild. Far too small for me but hilarious. These also fetch stupid money now, but I can see why.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yeah , I said that
> 
> Yeah , that's what I indicated previously within post #360 Ben . I just received 4 gallons of the old formula all black just a few weeks ago . Never used the brand before . I want to use it this winter on the RXL . Since it really looked good according to Kevin's advice !


The stuff I have and the stuff Home depot still sells is still the old formula...if there is an old formula. I have my doubts.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> MY father in law had a Mach IV. Said it was very powerful and handled like dog chit.
> I actually owned a KR Special Yamaha RZ 350 and a Daytona Special RD400 at one time. I was offered a stupid sum of money by a guy who wanted both. The problem is the prices have gotten even more stupid since. I really regret selling them.
> It's really a shame that Yamaha or KTM hasn't used some modern low emmissions tech to get two strokes back on the road.


The Mach IV actually handled well compared to the Mach III . Although it weighed 70 lbs (450) more & made 15 more horses (74). Top speed was only 8 mph more (120 mph) & half second quicker through the 1/4 mile (11.4) . My 1972 Z900 in comparison weighed 525 lbs made 103 hp & topped out @ 137 mph. The fastest product bike I ever owned was a 1991 Yamaha V max 1200 . 540 lbs of scary 140+ hp topping out at 160+ mph . The scariest ride hands down 1970 Yamaha RD350 (R5) parallel twin putting out 40 hp weight 347 lbs & top speed 105 mph . It was referred to as the Giant killer having blowing away 750 Honda's 4 strokes @ Daytona in 1969 during speed week . Anyhow way off topic , but good memories none the less !


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> The Mach IV actually handled well compared to the Mach III . Although it weighed 70 lbs (450) more & made 15 more horses (74). Top speed was only 8 mph more (120 mph) & half second quicker through the 1/4 mile (11.4) . My 1972 Z900 in comparison weighed 525 lbs made 103 hp & topped out @ 137 mph. The fastest product bike I ever owned was a 1991 Yamaha V max 1200 . 540 lbs of scary 140+ hp topping out at 160+ mph . The scariest ride hands down 1970 Yamaha RD350 (R5) parallel twin putting out 40 hp weight 347 lbs & top speed 105 mph . It was referred to as the Giant killer having blowing away 750 Honda's 4 strokes @ Daytona in 1969 during speed week . Anyhow way off topic , but good memories none the less !


My RD400 Daytona was pretty sedate as it was completely stock including the OEM tires when I bought it. Only 5000 miles on the clock. I changed the tires and put another 1000 on it before I sold.
The Rz350 was a completely different beast. It had Eric Gorr worked over cylinders and heads and rare Toomey pipes. I also belive it had different cams on the servo actuated power valves. That thing hauled the mail until aerodynamics caught up with it at speeds over 100mph.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The stuff I have and the stuff Home depot still sells is still the old formula...if there is an old formula. I have my doubts.


Yeah mine is the older all black jug . It was a Ester base or at least a ester adder stock in thought . My only reservation was the ester or naptha potentially causing oxidation during prolonged storage . The RXL is not a daily driver even in the winter months . You have any reservations with the Armor product within an older liquid cooled 120 + hp triple , that is more or less a shelf queen ?


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Certainly nothing wrong with that.


I will say this. Red Armour leaves more residual oil on internal parts than any oil I have ever seen and I have seen quit a few.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> My RD400 Daytona was pretty sedate as it was completely stock including the OEM tires when I bought it. Only 5000 miles on the clock. I changed the tires and put another 1000 on it before I sold.
> The Rz350 was a completely different beast. It had Eric Gorr worked over cylinders and heads and rare Toomey pipes. I also belive it had different cams on the servo actuated power valves. That thing hauled the mail until aerodynamics caught up with it at speeds over 100mph.


Yeah my 1970 R5 was the predecessor of the RZ . It was scary at 100 mph . with its stock "friction" steering head damper . I went with dual hydraulic dampers & Vance Hines triple chromed tuned expansion chambers . It was putting out over 54 hp after new reeds & mild porting was done . Still a twitchy ride , with explosive acceleration , very similar to the later Kawasaki S2 350 triple 45 hp & top speed of 105 mph within overall performance !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I will say this. Red Armour leaves more residual oil on internal parts than any oil I have ever seen and I have seen quit a few.
> View attachment 1029333


So corrosion , during prolonged storage should not become a factor with a intended 40 : 1 Premix ratio in this snowmobile application in your consideration ?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> MY father in law had a Mach IV. Said it was very powerful and handled like dog chit.
> I actually owned a KR Special Yamaha RZ 350 and a Daytona Special RD400 at one time. I was offered a stupid sum of money by a guy who wanted both. The problem is the prices have gotten even more stupid since. I really regret selling them.
> It's really a shame that Yamaha or KTM hasn't used some modern low emmissions tech to get two strokes back on the road.


Yeah , I miss all my 2T bikes , unfortunate can't turn back the clock & prices are stupid , to even consider as you say purchasing one now !


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> So corrosion , during prolonged storage should not become a factor with a intended 40 : 1 Premix ratio in this snowmobile application in your consideration ?


I dont known that as I won't store anything long term with ester based oils.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> So Echo Power Blend and Red Armor are both semi-synthetics with fuel stabilizers and FD rated.... what the heck is supposed to be the difference?
> Maybe I'll just stick with Power Blend...


I have experience with Powerblend in a Echo 590 Timber Wolf model for 3 yrs . Very good results . The Red Armor is a learning experience for me . Taking the advice of the forum experienced oil guru's accordingly & a little research myself !


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yeah mine is the older all black jug . It was a Ester base or at least a ester adder stock in thought . My only reservation was the ester or naptha potentially causing oxidation during prolonged storage . The RXL is not a daily driver even in the winter months . You have any reservations with the Armor product within an older liquid cooled 120 + hp triple , that is more or less a shelf queen ?


"Naptha" is a pretty generic term and it's found in almost all two cycle oils. Some times it's called kerosene or stoddard solvent on an MSDS, but what it really is, is a solvent based on a hydrocarbon slightly heavier than gasoline range material and slightly lighter than kerosene. The best oils will use a diluent that won't effect octane and will be at the low end of the above described range. The cheaper ones will use straight up stoddard solvent AKA mineral spirits which will lower octane and will cause deposits. It's sometimes apparent which route an oil company takes in this regard based on the flash point. Lower is better.
If I had to bet I would say the old and new stuff both contain ester. Esters are polar in nature and I believe that's why red Armour clings so well. Although it's better than any ester based oil I have seen in that regard.
I would also say that a CAS number on the old MSDS was not listed for the ester component. This means it wasn't toxic and as such didn't need to be listed in the first place.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I dont known that as I won't store anything long term with ester based oils.


Yeah , that was my assumption also , thanks for the confirmation !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> "Naptha" is a pretty generic term and it's found in almost all two cycle oils. Some times it's called kerosene or stoddard solvent on an MSDS, but what it really is, is a solvent based on a hydrocarbon slightly heavier than gasoline range material and slightly lighter than kerosene. The best oils will use a diluent that won't effect octane and will be at the low end of the above described range. The cheaper ones will use straight up stoddard solvent AKA mineral spirits which will lower octane snd will cause deposits. It's sometimes apparent which route an oil company takes in this regard based on the flash point. Lower is better.


Yep , that's my understanding also , especially within lowering the octane value & potential coinciding lower operating temperatures & deposit formation realities also . I will have to give it some more thought . If it was the former air cooled Liberty engine configuration rather than the newer Fugi liquid version , it would be a slam dunk brother . Thanks again for the input !


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## Husky77 (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> The Mach IV actually handled well compared to the Mach III . Although it weighed 70 lbs (450) more & made 15 more horses (74). Top speed was only 8 mph more (120 mph) & half second quicker through the 1/4 mile (11.4) . My 1972 Z900 in comparison weighed 525 lbs made 103 hp & topped out @ 137 mph. The fastest product bike I ever owned was a 1991 Yamaha V max 1200 . 540 lbs of scary 140+ hp topping out at 160+ mph . The scariest ride hands down 1970 Yamaha RD350 (R5) parallel twin putting out 40 hp weight 347 lbs & top speed 105 mph . It was referred to as the Giant killer having blowing away 750 Honda's 4 strokes @ Daytona in 1969 during speed week . Anyhow way off topic , but good memories none the less !


My regret is selling my Suzuki t500r to buy a house back in the 70's. My friend had a kawasaki 500 triple that was fast but mine would out handle it and steady as a rock while his was like a snake. The Suzuki was faster than 750 Norton commando and 650 bonavile, I used to beat them on the road. Later I raced a 350 Yamaha it was air cooled just before they brought out the TZ350. I would beat them off the line and be in the first 3 or 4 into the first Corner then they would come flying past but that air cooled was so reliable and a missile to ride, biggest regret was selling that it would be worth a fortune now. Times change, these days I cant ride but had good times. All were run on Castrol R then and smell was great, it was 16:1 that I do remember. Then they started developing new oils and the rest is history as they say.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yep , that's my understanding also , especially within lowering the octane value & potential coinciding lower operating temperatures & deposit formation realities also . Thanks again for the input !


Honda HP2 uses cumene as a diluent. Cumene is a high octane stream.
Back in the day before aromatics where frowned upon Toluene and Xylene were both used and they are also high octane streams.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Honda HP2 uses cumene as a diluent. Cumene is a high octane stream.
> Back in the day before aromatics where frowned upon Toluene and Xylene were both used and they are also high octane streams.


Yes , I recall the T & X components , Cumene is a coal tar byproduct ( polyaromatic hydro carbon ) also , with trace amount of benzene components used to elevate the octane levels , with high solvency value ..correct ?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> My regret is selling my Suzuki t500r to buy a house back in the 70's. My friend had a kawasaki 500 triple that was fast but mine would out handle it and steady as a rock while his was like a snake. The Suzuki was faster than 750 Norton commando and 650 bonavile, I used to beat them on the road. Later I raced a 350 Yamaha it was air cooled just before they brought out the TZ350. I would beat them off the line and be in the first 3 or 4 into the first Corner then they would come flying past but that air cooled was so reliable and a missile to ride, biggest regret was selling that it would be worth a fortune now. Times change, these days I cant ride but had good times. All were run on Castrol R then and smell was great, it was 16:1 that I do remember. Then they started developing new oils and the rest is history as they say.


Wow , The Suzuki 500 Titan was a rocket for a 500 twin , remember a buddies 1972 model . I ran Castrol R also or Bardah Injector in my 2T triples . Yeah , the 500r would out perform or handle either of the British twins . I preferred the BSA 's performance over Triump . I briefly owned a 1970 750 Combat Commando , it was the finest handling parrallel 4 stroke twin in my opinion ever , with mucho torgue ! Yep history , thanks for the memories , I had forgotten the Titan .


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yes , I recall the T & X components , Cumene is a coal tar byproduct ( polyaromatic hydro carbon ) also , with trace amount of benzene components used to elevate the octane levels , with high solvency value ..correct ?


You can make it in a refinery as well and without benzene in it. Refiners go to great lengths to remove benzene these days.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You can make it in a refinery as well and without benzene in it. Refiners go to great lengths to remove benzene these days.


I guess that's technically not correct as cumene has a benzene ring structure like toluene. It however is not a known carcinogen like benzene.
Its often blended into the motor gas pool when chemical feed stocks are prices low, which hasn't occurred lately.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I guess that's technically not correct as cumene has a benzene ring structure like toluene. It however is not a known carcinogen like benzene.
> Its often blended into the motor gas pool when chemical feed stocks are prices low, which hasn't occurred lately.


I know what you meant , it is recognized "suspected" carcinagetic agent here in Canada . Isopropylbenzene is it's chemical Trade name & affiliatation as a aromatic hydro carbon. Nothing close to the recognized health hazards of Benzene or even Toluene at this time . I checked my Old Industrial Hygiene OSHA Cat'l its been put together with Toluene @ 50 ppm stel within an establish ambient temperature for a industrial 8 hr Time Weighted Average within a Inhalation / Absorbtion or Injestion inherent hazard . It was more so quite prevealent a Environmental requirement for testing within our Tank Farm Bulk Oil (10 million Imp. Gallon ) Storage Facility . As part of our Certificate of Approval & Due Dilligence within requested ground water testing protocols with the Ministry of the Environment . I believe that protocol identified 250 mg/ litre as the recognized allowable level or concentration( contamination of ground water) at that time. It been over 20 + yrs brother lol.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I know what you meant , it is recognized "suspected" carcinagetic agent here in Canada . Isopropylbenzene is it's chemical affiliatation as a aromatic hydro carbon. Nothing close to the recognized health hazards of Benzene or even Toluene .


Toluene is also known as methyl benzene and it has the same carcinogen rating as cumene. That is to say unknown, but not from not being tested. What that means is if they performed some sort of slanted test and ridiculous exposure levels they might find some correlation in the increased incidence of cancer.
Benzene on the other hand is pretty apparent in its carcinogenic properties.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Toluene is also known as methyl benzene and it has the same carcinogen rating as cumene. That is to say unknown, but not from not being tested. What that means is if they performed some sort of slanted test and ridiculous exposure levels they might find some correlation in the increased incidence of cancer.
> Benzene on the other hand is pretty apparent in its carcinogenic properties.


As the custodian or "Constructor" of the Facility I met weekly with the Plants Environmental Technicians & the Ministry Inspector during Oil Campaigns . Otherwise the Certificate of Approval only required annual ground water testing . Actually with all the various types of Oils stored which included Heavy C , Diesel & Sulphanated waste oils , ground water contamination was the least Environmental hazard in my opinion lol.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> As the custodian or "Constructor" of the Facility I met weekly with the Plants Environmental Technicians & the Ministry Inspector during Oil Campaigns . Otherwise the Certificate of Approval only required annual ground water testing . Actually with all the various types of Oils stored which included Heavy C , Diesel & Sulphanated waste oils , ground water contamination was the least Environmental hazard in my opinion lol.


I mean groundwater contamination is only an issue if you have leaky tanks or poor handling practices.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I have experience with Powerblend in a Echo 590 Timber Wolf model for 3 yrs . Very good results . The Red Armor is a learning experience for me . Taking the advice of the forum experienced oil guru's accordingly & a little research myself !


I would try it at 50:1 honestly and I never say that.... this assumes saw use.
I ran it at 32:1 and 40:1. I liked 40:1 better. The pic was actually 40:1.
The amount of residual still baffles me as to why to be honest.
Also keep in mind my observations are based on running it mostly around 8000' of elevation.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I mean groundwater contamination is only an issue if you have leaky tanks or poor handling practices.


Due diligence , you talking ( 7 ) 1.5 & 3 million gallon (" rivited bulk head tanks " ) assemblies all which were heated for freeze protection via 100 # saturated process steam immersion platen pressed stainless steel steam heaters or immersion tube shell heat exchangers . Along with auto controlled & monitored free board & temperature levels for each tank . Each tank was Non destructive tested structurally each yr & drained & visible inspected & repaired every 5 yrs accordingly . Spillage or yeah , remedial clean ups were common place !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I would try it at 50:1 honestly and I never say that.... this assumes saw use.
> I ran it at 32:1 and 40:1. I liked 40:1 better. The pic was actually 40:1.
> The amount of residual still baffles me as to why to be honest.
> Also keep in mind my observations are based on running it mostly around 8000' of elevation.


8000' very rich ambient mixture , did you need rejetting ? or with the limiters removed could you acquire a reasonable tune . P.S. Yes 40 :1 is what I mostly use on any new oil within a trial & go from there proactively . Thanks again Ben ! P.S. I think the oil polar adhesive properties as you suggest could be the contributing factor of the evident residue & puddling brother


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Due diligence , you talking ( 7 ) 1.5 & 3 million gallon (" rivited bulk head tanks " ) assemblies all which were heated for freeze protection via 100 # saturated process steam immersion platen pressed stainless steel steam heaters or immersion tube shell heat exchangers . Along with auto controlled & monitored free board & temperature levels for each tank . Each tank was Non destructive tested structurally each yr & drained & visible inspected & repaired every 5 yrs accordingly . Spillage or yeah , remedial clean ups were common place !


The power plant I worked at had a 2million gallon above ground tank. Also had smaller chemical tanks housed indoors in their own containment basins.
The refinery I work at now has many tanks and the are all huge. Floating roof style and heated by steam as you describe.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> 8000' very rich ambient mixture , did you need rejetting ? or with the limiters removed could you acquire a reasonable tune . P.S. Yes 40 :1 is what I mostly use on any new oil within a trial & go from there proactively . Thanks again Ben ! P.S. I think the oil polar adhesive properties as you suggest could be the contributing factor of the evident residue & puddling brother


Occasionally I also cut around 3500 feet but the wood is Ponderosa Pine, which isn't great for firewood. As a result most of what I do is at higher elevation for Douglas Fir.
If you dial in the saw at 3500 there is a big difference in tuning. Not just the elevation, but the temp changes with elevation greatly as well.
Which is one reason I really like this 400C. No farming around with tuning. 

The only thing that requires a reset for 8k is my generator, which runs extremely rich at elevation unless it's real cold. A few years ago I bit the bullet and got a high elevation kit for it. It still runs exceptably at 3500 where I live.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Toluene is also known as methyl benzene and it has the same carcinogen rating as cumene. That is to say unknown, but not from not being tested. What that means is if they performed some sort of slanted test and ridiculous exposure levels they might find some correlation in the increased incidence of cancer.
> Benzene on the other hand is pretty apparent in its carcinogenic properties.


Actually from my short Industrial tenure in Industrial Hygiene Ben , "suspected" is where the correlation of medical testing has not establish evidence of a incident of established disease or severe health risks via a short term exposure limit or time weight exposure value of any biological agent or chemical , either within a human or a test lab rat . Specifically as either as recognized Lethal Concentration or Lethal Dosage . I remember well where allowable air borne friable concentrations of Asbestos (Designated Substance) changed by the type of Asbestos in question . Because the fibre structure varied. Same with Mercury due to ambient temperature changes & it's effect on the rate of evaporation involved . Anyhow , I even hate running leaded gas today in any hand held for obvious reasons , actually refuse to lol


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The power plant I worked at had a 2million gallon above ground tank. Also had smaller chemical tanks housed indoors in their own containment basins.
> The refinery I work at now has many tanks and the are all huge. Floating roof style and heated by steam as you describe.


Floating roofs cool , any applicable pics available ? Yeah , our Tank Farm Facility had numerous auto loading pump houses & automated & manned daily for any off loading through cargo lines to a ship or transports or railcar. The complex was roughly the size of 2 Canadian football fields .


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The power plant I worked at had a 2million gallon above ground tank. Also had smaller chemical tanks housed indoors in their own containment basins.
> The refinery I work at now has many tanks and the are all huge. Floating roof style and heated by steam as you describe.


I maintain the oil fired boiler at the farm i work with since all the buildings are heated with low pressure steam.
#4 fuel oil fires the furnace sometimes #5 is used but requires constantly being heated to vaporize properly in the boilers fire box.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Occasionally I also cut around 3500 feet but the wood is Ponderosa Pine, which isn't great for firewood. As a result most of what I do is at higher elevation for Douglas Fir.
> If you dial in the saw at 3500 there is a big difference in tuning. Not just the elevation, but the temp changes with elevation greatly as well.
> Which is one reason I really like this 400C. No farming around with tuning.
> 
> The only thing that requires a reset for 8k is my generator, which runs extremely rich at elevation unless it's real cold. A few years ago I bit the bullet and got a high elevation kit for it. It still runs exceptably at 3500 where I live.


Most definately , barometric pressure & associated relative temperature swings , will effect the tune dramatically . Yeah , I imagine your 400 would handle that very effectively . I remember when altitude compensating carbs came out on my 1st Honda 250 XL Enduro in 1982 . Actually my CV Carb on my Dyna glide is in principal just a double acting balanced pressure mechanical control valve ( vacuum actuated to enable gas flow) similar in what you would see within a steam pressure control valve . Only the mediums density of flow changes accordingly , relative to the delta T of steam temp & pressure vs fix orifice flow dynamics & atmospheric pressure drop through orifice within the steam valve brother . All defined by what pressure motive force is applied (14.5) atmospheric in this example up North here a little less up on your mountain cutting scenerio accordingly lol.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

Bunker C or Heavy #4 ,5 & 6 often require steam injection & natural gas enrichment to enable adequate flow ( viscosity) & enhancement to ambient fuel to air combustion ratio's . All our 6 Boilers in our Industrial boiler house were natural gas fired then converted & operated on refined Bunker C once online . Actually , all our tank farm cargo 6" & 8 " lines were steam traced & insulated accordingly to allow & maintain adequate temperatures for proper pumping efficiency from the heated Bulk tanks .


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Actually from my tenure in Industrial Hygiene Ben , "suspected" is where the correlation of medical testing has not establish evidence of a incident of established disease via a short term exposure limit or time weight exposure value of any biological agent or chemical , either within a human or a test lab rat . Specifically as either as recognized Lethal Concentration or Lethal Dosage . I remember well where allowable air borne friable concentrations of Asbestos (Designated Substance) changed by the type of Asbestos in question . Because the fibre structure varied. Same with Mercury due to ambient temperature changes & it's effect on the rate of evaporation . involved . Anyhow , I even hate running leaded gas today in any hand held for obvious reasons , actually refuse to lol


I hear you on leaded gas. I never ran it in hand held anything, but won't run it in any motor now. That banshee.I.mentioned earlier was the last thing I used it in several years ago. Rumor has it 100LL is about to start being phased out. The replacement is something like 95 octane and lead free. If course this will take decades in practice.
I also will not shoot any game I intend to eat with lead and copper bullets.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Bunker C or Heavy #4 ,5 & 6 often require steam injection & Natural gas enrichment to enable adequate flow ( viscosity) & enhancement to ambient fuel to air combustion ratio's . All our 6 Boilers in our Industrial boiler house were Natural gas fired then converted & operated on refined Bunker C once online .


Our crude isn't much lighter than Bunker C and only then because it's been diluted. Alberta tar sands oil.
Our clarified oil or main column bottoms is the same viscosity or heavier than Bunker C and is often sold as residual fuel on the west coast. 
We have one boiler that still uses a steam injection burner, but we run it on plant fuel, which is refinery streams that can't be marketed and is slightly heavier than Nat gas. It's a bit of a trick lighting that bastard off in the winter as the steam tends to condense and it gives you a blast of condensate which knocks the burner out right after light off. As a result we block it in at the burner and blow the line out/ heat it up for a half Our prior to light off. Some times it works...some times it doesnt.


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Bunker C or Heavy #4 ,5 & 6 often require steam injection & Natural gas enrichment to enable adequate flow ( viscosity) & enhancement to ambient fuel to air combustion ratio's . All our 6 Boilers in our Industrial boiler house were Natural gas fired then converted & operated on refined Bunker C once online . Actually all our tank farm cargo 6" & 8 " lines were steam traced & insulated according to allow & maintain adequate temperatures for proper pumping efficiency from the heated Bulk tanks .


We use steam heat because it much safer than natural gas / propane in the barns and shop.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I hear you on leaded gas. I never ran it in hand held anything, but won't run it in any motor now. That banshee.I.mentioned earlier was the last thing I used it in several years ago. Rumor has it 100LL is about to start being phased out. The replacement is something like 95 octane and lead free. If course this will take decades in practice.
> I also will not shoot any game I intend to eat with lead and copper bullets.


I'am with you on that bullet composition . Mustang Mike just converted me last year to Barnes TTSX all copper for my .378 Weatherby . I had previously been a avid Hornaday partition user for Moose , Deer , Elk & Caribou . Unfortunately I have to add octane boost on my Dyna because of it's forged Manley Pistons & new Andrews Cam , but that's another story !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> We use steam heat because it much safer than natural gas / propane in the barns and shop.


I'll 2nd that brother !


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I'll 2nd that brother !


With the presence of so much dust from stored grain in the barn with a open flame heating source is a disaster waiting to happen because grain dust explosions are destructive and highly dangerous.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Our crude isn't much lighter than Bunker C and only then because it's been diluted. Alberta tar sands oil.
> Our clarified oil or main column bottoms is the same viscosity or heavier than Bunker C and is often sold as residual fuel on the west coast.
> We have one boiler that still uses a steam injection burner, but we run it on plant fuel, which is refinery streams that can't be marketed and is slightly heavier than Nat gas. It's a bit of a trick lighting that bastard off in the winter as the steam tends to condense and it gives you a blast of condensate which knocks the burner out right after light off. As a result we block it in at the burner and blow the line out/ heat it up for a half Our prior to light off. Some times it works...some times it doesnt.


Yeah , we used Blast fce gas as our Byproduct fuel of choice slightly lighter density than air in warmer ambient temps . Cokeoven gas , another fossel fuel byproduct , was much heavier density & lower btu value for an effective secondary boiler fuel . Also dirty , causing the same burner flameout conditions you are encountering Ben when you reach the dew point brother . Therefore Natural gas consumption levels increased during the winter months accordingly . What btu valve is recognized on a good dry day with your plant fuel byproduct ?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> With the presence of so much dust from stored grain in the barn with a open flame heating source is a disaster waiting to happen because grain dust explosions are destructive and highly dangerous.


I was going to say , I have personally witnessed spontaneous combustion from wet straw being stored improperly on more than one occasion !


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I was going to say , I have personally witnessed spontaneous combustion from wet straw being stored improperly on more than one occasion !


Milled corn and grain products produce dust.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

Hey guys , we certainly have hijacked the chit out of this oil thread , again . P S. Before you say anything Ben , yeah it's mostly my memory lane fault brother !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Milled corn and grain products produce dust.


Oh a milling operation , what's that qualify you for white lung ?


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Hey guys , we certainly have hijacked the chit out of this oil thread , again . P S. Before you say anything Ben , yeah it's mostly my memory lane fault brother !


This topic has been beat to death talk about anything you want.


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Oh a milling operation , what's that qualify you for white lung ?


No milling just storage it is a large farming operation i am one five full time employees.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> No milling just storage it is a large farming operation i am one five full time employees.


Used for the farm it self as livestock or chicken feed Jake or for eventual sale ?


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## jellyroll (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Used for the farm it self as livestock or chicken feed Jake or for eventual sale ?


Used on the farm use a standard blend of crushed corn and molasses medicated with rumensin.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I'am with you on that bullet composition . Mustang Mike just converted me last year to Barnes TTSX all copper for my .378 Weatherby . I had previously been a avid Hornaday partition user for Moose , Deer , Elk & Caribou . Unfortunately I have to add octane boost on my Dyna because of it forged Manley Pistons & new Andrews Cam , but that's another story !


I have used the Barnes X, XLC, TSX, TTSX and now LRX. I have also used the Nosler Etip and Hornady GMX. The TSX and latter Barnes are easy to get to shoot. The others not so much. They all work about the same, which is to say not as well as lead and copper bullets in terms of abrupt kills. The do penetrate very well and most often you get two holes. I've only recovered a few one is pictured here with the elks ivory next to it. The other was an etip recovered from a deer I shot at 6oo

yards and change with a 270 winchester.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I was going to say , I have personally witnessed spontaneous combustion from wet straw being stored improperly on more than one occasion !


I've seen hay do that when bailed too wet.
And of cours working at a coal plant we always had bunker fires in the spring due to wet coal


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## North by Northwest (Nov 3, 2022)

Nice cobtrokked expansion


bwalker said:


> I've seen hay do that when bailed too wet.
> And of cours working at a coal plant we always had bunker fires in the spring due to wet coal


We had coal bunkers on #1 #2 & #3 boilers . Had been decomissioned for yrs when i arrived . No fires lol.


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## bwalker (Nov 3, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Nice cobtrokked expansion
> 
> We had coal bunkers on #1 #2 & #3 boilers . Had been decomissioned for yrs when i arrived . No fires lol.


Never fun. Used 40' piercing rods with a solution of stuff that's a sort of like dish soap. Can't use water as it channels and gives the fire more oxygen. A godsend was when they bought us a thermal imaging camera at my advice. Then you could look at the outside of the Bunker and determine where the fire was. Then we would go up to the top gear up and in SCBA's and try to stop the smoldering with the piercing rods. Once we got it cooled off we would run the bunker out, hose off any coal deposited on the walls and hopefully that would get us a few weeks down the road before it happens again!


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## North by Northwest (Nov 3, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Never fun. Used 40' piercing rods with a solution of stuff that's a sort of like dish soap. Can't use water as it channels and gives the fire more oxygen. A godsend was when they bought us a thermal imaging camera at my advice. Then you could look at the outside of the Bunker and determine where the fire was. Then we would go up to the top gear up and in SCBA's and try to stop the smoldering with the piercing rods. Once we got it cooled off we would run the bunker out, hose off any coal deposited on the walls and hopefully that would get us a few weeks down the road before it happens again!


Yeah , we had similar issues within our Cokemaking Production areas , were Coke breeze or fines would cause similar flare ups or smoldering issues within Conveyor belt junction houses . ( level vertical elevation incline) changes within horizontal inclined belted conveyor lines . That moved aggregate from the coal docks to the operating area . Often Coke dust , could & eventually would accumulate & could cause concern of a lel (lower explosive limit) saturation point value . Which , often involved a spontaneous ignition & explosion of accumulated organic gases . I did over a 30 + yr tenure experience a few such incidents . Only , other explosive industrial incident I ever witnessed , was a underground Acetylene cargo line corridor leakage & resultant explosion . It , took out a complete railway line . It gave me a better sence , of confined space recognition & required preventative measures to prevent future issues or serious incidents of this Nature !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Our crude isn't much lighter than Bunker C and only then because it's been diluted. Alberta tar sands oil.
> Our clarified oil or main column bottoms is the same viscosity or heavier than Bunker C and is often sold as residual fuel on the west coast.
> We have one boiler that still uses a steam injection burner, but we run it on plant fuel, which is refinery streams that can't be marketed and is slightly heavier than Nat gas. It's a bit of a trick lighting that bastard off in the winter as the steam tends to condense and it gives you a blast of condensate which knocks the burner out right after light off. As a result we block it in at the burner and blow the line out/ heat it up for a half Our prior to light off. Some times it works...some times it doesnt.


You likely do not have adequate insulating of your steam main lines or less then stellar drip pocket & steam traps sizing to effectively remove the condensation formation within you steam mains , prior to your steam injection points . Often drop pockets are not adequately sized to work as a cooling leg to ensure quick & effective removal of condensing steam which can be carried downstream & wreak havoc with operating equipment & instrumentation metering stations .


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## jellyroll (Nov 5, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> You likely do not have adequate insulating of your steam main lines or less then stellar drip pocket & steam traps sizing to effectively remove the condensation formation within you steam mains , prior to your steam injection points . Often drop pockets are not adequately sized to work as a cooling leg to ensure quick & effective removal of condensing steam which can be carried downstream & wreak havoc with operating equipment & instrumentation metering stations .


Condensation is not a problem but the output end of the condensers has about 10 inchs of vacuum on it and the lines stay clear once everything is warmed through.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 5, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Condensation is not a problem but the output end of the condensers has about 10 inchs of vacuum on it and the lines stay clear once everything is warmed through.


I was replying to Mr Walker as to his Bunker C oil steam injection heaters , flame out issue Jake lol.


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## jellyroll (Nov 5, 2022)

ok


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## sean donato (Nov 5, 2022)

Man we jumped around quite a bit lol. Had a kawasaki kh 400 triple that was given to me with a sized center piston after high school. Rebuilt it. parts were a bugger to find back then. Rode it for a summer. Some guy saw me getting gas and mixing oil in at the gas station offered me $2k for it on the spot. Ended up selling it to him about a week later. Was a hard bike to ride imo, handling wasn't the best and how the power band hit so hard made it a real pain. My old man ran 750 triples back in the day and he said it was pretty gutless compared to his old 750. Can't say I was sad to see it go back then, but I wish I had it now.


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## dmezzomo (Nov 5, 2022)

anlrolfe said:


> Lost of places clear out their sporting goods, marine and water sports with deep discounts on outboard motor oil.
> Make sure the oil is for AIR cooled and NOT water cooled engines.


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## sean donato (Nov 5, 2022)

The ttsx is one of my favorite bullets. I run them in several calibers now.


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## dmezzomo (Nov 5, 2022)

Do not use marine oil in air cooled motors. Marine engines run at a constant temperature whereas air cooled engines are prone to overheating. Something to do with the amount of ash in the oil.


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## jellyroll (Nov 5, 2022)

yeah yeah.


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## jellyroll (Nov 5, 2022)

dmezzomo said:


> Do not use marine oil in air cooled motors. Marine engines run at a constant temperature whereas air cooled engines are prone to overheating. Something to do with the amount of ash in the oil.


Unless it is lawn boy engine they spec ashless oil because low ash oil will foul plugs and the cylinder with deposits.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> You likely do not have adequate insulating of your steam main lines or less then stellar drip pocket & steam traps sizing to effectively remove the condensation formation within you steam mains , prior to your steam injection points . Often drop pockets are not adequately sized to work as a cooling leg to ensure quick & effective removal of condensing steam which can be carried downstream & wreak havoc with operating equipment & instrumentation metering stations .


The line is 2" surrounded by 6" of insulation.
The control valve for the steam is approximately 50 yards away, which I believe is the main issue. It does probaly need at least one additional steam trap.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Unless it is lawn boy engine they spec ashless oil because low ash oil will foul plugs and the cylinder with deposits.


Yep.
Lawnboy run on low ash/ air cooled type oil.


What's pictured above is a great foundation for engine destroying pre ignition.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

sean donato said:


> The ttsx is one of my favorite bullets. I run them in several calibers now.


Try the LRX. They exhibit the same non bitchy nature in regards to accuracy, but shoot slightly flatter and expand a bit quicker.
I run the LRX in 6mm, 6.5, 7mm and .308. Will start running them in .257 as soon as I can find some.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

dmezzomo said:


> Do not use marine oil in air cooled motors. Marine engines run at a constant temperature whereas air cooled engines are prone to overheating. Something to do with the amount of ash in the oil.


Good advice.
The ash thing refers to air cooled type oils using mettalic detergents. Marine type oils use nitrogen amine based dispersents because the mettalics cause all sorts of problems when subjected to constant throttle use.
Dispersents do not function at all above a ring belt temp of approximately 300 degrees. Hence in a air cooled motor you have ring groove and exhaust port deposit issues.


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## Tomos770 (Nov 6, 2022)

Summarized here....


The Late Great Oil Debate


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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The line is 2" surrounded by 6" of insulation.
> The control valve for the steam is approximately 50 yards away, which I believe is the main issue. It does probaly need at least one additional steam trap.


Also Ben , the 2" supply line to each burner should have at least a 12" of bare uninsulated vertical cooling leg with a drip leg condensate trap installed 6 " or half way from the bottom . I have found Roxal insulation ( mineral wool) the most effective within R & E values & moisture wicking & noise attenuation capacity . P.S. A blow down valve should always be installed on the drip leg for purging of any dirt & debris once a yr . Condensate drip traps also should be installed within 20 ' of any pressure , temperature control valve . Condensate drip traps should be routinely installed every 100 ' & prior to any change of direction from horizontal . We routinely utilized thermodynamic traps for mainline drips . Subcooling (-20 f) than ambient steam temperature type thermostatic bellows or bimettalic traps on critical tracing or metering lines . Larger process systems used float & thermostatic (density) traps . I always specified air vents on all steam systems on the high side to better eliminate any entrapped air or non condensibles on start up . Although another leak path to atmosphere , they always provide quick & efficient system warm up & reduction of any thermal shock or water hammer within the piping system . P.S. I only mention this due to the fact that I designed heating systems for 30 yrs . I often was shocked at how operating engineers ignored system deterioration , & waited for the maintenance personal to trouble shoot " their " operating systems deficiencies . I often had to upgrade the in house Engineering Dept. on proper Steam optimization & efficiency protocols . Also within recommendation of quality trap & valve manufacturers within Iso-9000 standards . Sarco , Yarway , Armstrong , Bestobell , Watson McDaniel & Nicholson are all fine & diversified manufacturers . Surprisingly , these Engineering associates were the same individuals who were responsible for Designing the Plants Piping Standards & Specifications lol  I officially retired in 2000 , however have been contacted for numerous consultation contracts within North America . Most recently by the Michigan Corp. of Engineers last yr to do a survey of their basic boiler distribution system & condensate return systems . Have also done extensive work within the petro chemical industry & pulp & papper industry & Cruise ship industry recently . I enjoy consulting , keeps your mind active & you meet some very interesting people & challenging retro fits , & required reverse engineering in some applications brother !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The line is 2" surrounded by 6" of insulation.
> The control valve for the steam is approximately 50 yards away, which I believe is the main issue. It does probaly need at least one additional steam trap.


We had (12) 4" burner heads per zone . 1" 150# saturated individual aspiration steam lines dedicated for each burner with individual zone steam via reduced 30# Prv control valves . Each fuel burner was injected individually from a dedicated 2" auto controlled Pressure / Temp stainless stl. Piston Metering valve , which was fed from the boiler house dedicated 10 " 150 # process branch line .


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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yep.
> Lawnboy run on low ash/ air cooled type oil.
> View attachment 1030095
> 
> What's pictured above is a great foundation for engine destroying pre ignition.


Oh yeah , lots of localized hots spot " glowing embers " potential on that dome lol.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The line is 2" surrounded by 6" of insulation.
> The control valve for the steam is approximately 50 yards away, which I believe is the main issue. It does probaly need at least one additional steam trap.


A little over kill perhaps , on the insulation package standards . Only on 400 # & 600 # Super heated steam applications , did we utilize 3 - 2" layers for the specified R value of preformed mineral wool encapsulated in 2mm stainless steel foil . Burn protection or K value was also a major contributing factor for much of our piping standards for insulation products due to the numerous superheated steam distribution lines throughout the Plant facility .


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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Unless it is lawn boy engine they spec ashless oil because low ash oil will foul plugs and the cylinder with deposits.


Absolutely , low rpm & relative lower operating temperature under 300 f of outboards & to an extent LB mowers do not tolerate ash additives well ! Some purists advise zero ash within outboard actually , however some just recommend low ash . I run. a 4 stroke outboard now , so not still in the loop anymore .


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## Chevboy0167 (Nov 6, 2022)




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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Man we jumped around quite a bit lol. Had a kawasaki kh 400 triple that was given to me with a sized center piston after high school. Rebuilt it. parts were a bugger to find back then. Rode it for a summer. Some guy saw me getting gas and mixing oil in at the gas station offered me $2k for it on the spot. Ended up selling it to him about a week later. Was a hard bike to ride imo, handling wasn't the best and how the power band hit so hard made it a real pain. My old man ran 750 triples back in the day and he said it was pretty gutless compared to his old 750. Can't say I was sad to see it go back then, but I wish I had it now.


Yeah , the 1974 S3 400 triple was much like all the kawi triples , high on performance not so much on handling lol. I remember well in 1973 when at Daytona , the H2 750 triple entered a grudge race with a 1972 CB750 & 1972 Z900 , the triple & 900 kawi crossed the line side by side ! lol. The Kawasaki triples were doomed however , 1975 was the their last production run I believe & much of their firepower had been removed by then with detuning measures to meet epa. Standards .


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## coffeebrk (Nov 6, 2022)

https://media.tenor.com/kpClz6FhUwgAAAAd/happy-days-the-fonz.gif
this thread has jumped the shark


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## jellyroll (Nov 6, 2022)

Moral of the story use right oil and plenty of it. 
Opinions are like butt holes everyone has one and they all stink.


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## skeet88 (Nov 6, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> A little over kill perhaps , on the insulation package standards . Only on 400 # & 600 # Super heated steam applications , did we utilize 3 - 2" layers of preformed mineral wool encapsulated in 2mm stainless steel foil . Burn protection was also a major contributing factor for much of our piping standards due to the superheated steam distribution lines throughout the Plant facility .


I have enjoyed reading you and BWalker going back and forth on the steam issues and such. I can relate to some of it .I work at a paper mill that produces both parts of a cardboard box. At one time I run the dryers for one machine and now I moved up and run the wetend. Years ago we had a turbine driven line shaft that run the drives but have since upgraded to ac drives.Made life a lot simpler as for as maintenance ,runability, and safety. The turbine run on 850# steam and was not something to play with. One time someone forgot to remove the locking bar for LOTO ( 1x6x48” steel bar) before starting the turbine.Turbine didn’t even know it was there , bent it like a pretzel and kept on turning. Luckily no one was hurt but they scattered like a covey of quail.Be Safe!


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## Czed (Nov 6, 2022)

dmezzomo said:


> Do not use marine oil in air cooled motors. Marine engines run at a constant temperature whereas air cooled engines are prone to overheating. Something to do with the amount of ash in the oil.


Boat oil here it's not all bad


dmezzomo said:


>


I don't care what anyone uses
But I saw the pics tree monkey posted about 10 year's ago of the
Commercial saws he was porting running Schaeffer's boat oil
Even with heavy use they still looked great.
My 272 has about 4 year's on it now


I'm happy with it
But it's rising cost has me switching to Castrol go haven't tried it yet.
But I can get three quarts of it compared to one Schaeffer's now.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> A little over kill perhaps , on the insulation package standards . Only on 400 # & 600 # Super heated steam applications , did we utilize 3 - 2" layers of preformed mineral wool encapsulated in 2mm stainless steel foil . Burn protection was also a major contributing factor for much of our piping standards due to the superheated steam distribution lines throughout the Plant facility .


I forgot to mention the line is also heat traced with steam tracing.
All of our pipe is insulated with Calsil insulation and jacket with tin. Control stations are cozy coated.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2022)

Czed said:


> Boat oil here it's not all bad
> 
> I don't care what anyone uses
> But I saw the pics tree monkey posted about 10 year's ago of the
> ...


That motor is running way rich and that's apparent. If the engine was tuned properly your piston would not look like that.
Ashless dispersent technology will not work above 300 degrees. Once you cross that threshold you will build deposits galore in the ring grooves and exhaust port.
I actually tried schaeffers in my lawn bot. Semi syn, red bottle. To me it wasn't even a great marine oil.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Absolutely , low rpm & relative lower operating temperature under 300 f of outboards & to an extent LB mowers do not tolerate ash additives well ! Some purists advise zero ash within outboard actually , however some just recommend low ash . I run. a 4 stroke outboard now , so not still in the loop anymore .


Certified marine oils are all ashless IE zero ash.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Certified marine oils are all ashless IE zero ash.


That's what I have always seen ashless for outboard & marine usage !


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## jellyroll (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Certified marine oils are all ashless IE zero ash.


The Johnson Evinrude XD50 does a fine job in my lawn boy and burns clean. The spark plugs look great as well.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> I have enjoyed reading you and BWalker going back and forth on the steam issues and such. I can relate to some of it .I work at a paper mill that produces both parts of a cardboard box. At one time I run the dryers for one machine and now I moved up and run the wetend. Years ago we had a turbine driven line shaft that run the drives but have since upgraded to ac drives.Made life a lot simpler as for as maintenance ,runability, and safety. The turbine run on 850# steam and was not something to play with. One time someone forgot to remove the locking bar for LOTO ( 1x6x48” steel bar) before starting the turbine.Turbine didn’t even know it was there , bent it like a pretzel and kept on turning. Luckily no one was hurt but they scattered like a covey of quail.Be Safe!


Yeah , a lot of static & dynamic energy


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I forgot to mention the line is also heat traced with steam tracing.
> All of our pipe is insulated with Calsil insulation and jacket with tin. Control stations are cozy coated.


The oil branch line from the cargo line would require tracing to enable proper flow characteristics . Often within inside freeze proofing or smaller btu required heating applications the sensible heat of the condensate return system was utilized , quite often on metering station differential pressure applications . The latent heat of low pressure #15 steam was more often used on outside air line vent & dryer or drain stations or water line freeze protection requirements . We previously used silicate Johns Mannsville preformed insulation , however converted to Roxal mineral wool in 2000 . It was already used in numerous noise attenuation & R & K heat dissipation / absorption applications for Industrial mufflers & reusable turbine casing preformed blanket coverings . Reduced the labour intensity of r & r of insulation of various thickness's & layers on various prime movers during routine scheduled downtime & necessary equipment rebuilds . It also was condensate & water friendly in that it would only take on 2% per volume & quickly wick away any moisture it took on . Very good product utilized world wide today . I utilized it on my 1st base foot of insulation product of my new Welding shop . Above that I went with regular Owen's fiberglass accordingly .


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## xraydaniel (Nov 29, 2022)

Scored 5 cases of Castrol 2T which is about 5x cheaper than the 2.6 oz containers of Echo power blend. $7.50 a quart for me.


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## MacAttack (Nov 29, 2022)

Forget all those fancy oils...Im switching to this stuff I found in my shop. 

You see the picture of a chainsaw on the front? 

50:1 too.


s


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 29, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Forget all those fancy oils...Im switching to this stuff I found in my shop.
> 
> You see the picture of a chainsaw on the front?
> 
> ...



It'll make great bar oil.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 29, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> It'll make great bar oil.


Might be better at coating a bunghole after a Szechuan dinner.


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## MacAttack (Nov 29, 2022)

I'm going to actually run that stuff just to make a point, 32:1 in my old saws. Lol. I'll get pics for evidence.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 29, 2022)

It'll be fine. I wouldn't run it as a regular practice, but for a tank or two to finish the day, I'd run it in my new stuff too.

That's the kind of thing I'd buy at garage sales for a quarter, and then dump in the fuel tank of my diesel truck. That 617 would eat anything.


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## MacAttack (Nov 29, 2022)

I know you could run that Coastal oil daily without burning down your saw. We've all been brainwashed into thinking those conventional 2 smoke oils are no good anymore.


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## Gabriel1982 (Nov 29, 2022)

"some say" those synthetic oils are the work of the Devil  always performing THAT good  
All I can say, I wouldn't use anything BUT synthetic oil ,2 stroke or 4 stroke!


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## MacAttack (Nov 29, 2022)

Synthetics have for sure demonstrated to outperform conventional oils especially in extreme conditions. I still think most saws would run fine on pretty much any 2 stroke oil at 32:1 or even 40:1.


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## Czed (Nov 29, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> Scored 5 cases of Castrol 2T which is about 5x cheaper than the 2.6 oz containers of Echo power blend. $7.50 a quart for me.


I got Castrol for 6.28 a quart that's exceptionally cheap 
Compared to anything else local I can get
Dominator, Schaeffer's etc..
I ran is 23-30.00 per quart now.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 29, 2022)

Czed said:


> I got Castrol for 6.28 a quart that's exceptionally cheap
> Compared to anything else local I can get
> Dominator, Schaeffer's etc..
> I ran is 23-30.00 per quart now.


After the news got out about the 2T being equal with the Stihl, Echo, Fram, etc small bottles a few months back the quarts were oos everywhere. Skinflints are very active nowadays and I for one will seek out a deal like this. Why?

Green, ESG, and progressive policies are putting the fetters on the oil and gas industry. Add +20 years of lacking investment in exploration and production with waning production like Ghawar increasingly using injector wells to shore up their numbers and you have a future that will see much higher energy prices. You don’t even have to believe in peak oil as the EROI for future projects will prove unsustainable. I need to hedge that issue and being a guy that loves his 2 cycle engines the storage of 2 cycle oil is like any other hard asset. Those things priced in fiat will only go higher.


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## Czed (Nov 29, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> After the news got out about the 2T being equal with the Stihl, Echo, Fram, etc small bottles a few months back the quarts were oos everywhere. Skinflints are very active nowadays and I for one will seek out a deal like this. Why?
> 
> Green, ESG, and progressive policies are putting the fetters on the oil and gas industry. Add +20 years of lacking investment in exploration and production with waning production like Ghawar increasingly using injector wells to shore up their numbers and you have a future that will see much higher energy prices. You don’t even have to believe in peak oil as the EROI for future projects will prove unsustainable. I need to hedge that issue and being a guy that loves his 2 cycle engines the storage of 2 cycle oil is like any other hard asset. Those things priced in fiat will only go higher.


I'm not going to read all that 
I bought Castrol cheap seems to work good
That is my statement.


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## xraydaniel (Nov 29, 2022)

Czed said:


> I'm not going to read all that
> I bought Castrol cheap seems to work good
> That is my statement.


Seems you need validation in a public forum by typing that. But you did read it and even quoted it


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## xraydaniel (Dec 4, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Flash point doesn't infer what people think. A low flash point just tells you two things. A. The diluent used is high quality and B. It's a multi ingredient formulation. All FD certified oils are multi part formulations. IE they use a medium weight base oil that burns clean and a heavier weight base oil like PIB or in rare cases an ester for load carry ability/ scuff resistance.
> High flash point multi base oils are problematic because the diluent doesn't combust fully and this causes deposits. They also tend to lower octane because the cheap diluent are typicaly stoddard solvent. They also inhibit combustion and cause a strong smell. Oils with a high flash point that only have one base oil.
> I actually tried a low ash type oil sold by the company I work for and I could tell almost immediately it was garbage because I could smell the solvent passing through the motor uncombusted and this was with a strato motor.
> The other thing is on a MSDS the diluent is often listed as Stoddard solvent,naptha kerosene, etc. These are sort of blanket names for various hydrocarbon fractions of different boiling points and thus flash points. In other words you may see a MSDS that lists kerosene as the diluent and it's shows a 175 degree flash point and another that also lists kerosene as the diluent that has a 250 degree flash point. The higher one will often pass through the motor in a partially combusted or un combusted state when not subjected to high loads.





North by Northwest said:


> Very good points . Most of the higher flash point oils I have witnessed have been problematic . Although as you mentioned. Detergency packages can resolve deposit issues effectively , I always worry that they may contribute to cooling the critical temperatures & further aggravate deposit formation due to incomplete combustion & sponge formation in the exhaust runner . Ultra via BP oil of Shreveport la. has a flash point of 432 f . & a predictable carbon deposit & excessive sponge producing effect . Your analogy Ben most likely is spot on !


The cases of Go! 2T I picked up last week are refined by BP. BP has three US refineries https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/c...iness-factsheets/bp-refineries-fact-sheet.pdf

What difference might there be between the process of the US refining at Whiting and Toledo where this 2T is processed? Canada does not have any BP refineries as I can tell and only 7 exist worldwide where the Toledo-Husky refinery in Ohio is now sold to Cenovus.


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## bucketofguts (Dec 4, 2022)

Anybody run LE Lubrication Engineers products?


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## North by Northwest (Dec 4, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> The cases of Go! 2T I picked up last week are refined by BP. BP has three US refineries https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/c...iness-factsheets/bp-refineries-fact-sheet.pdf
> 
> What difference might there be between the process of the US refining at Whiting and Toledo where this 2T is processed? Canada does not have any BP refineries as I can tell and only 7 exist worldwide where the Toledo-Husky refinery in Ohio is now sold to Cenovus.


I would presume the manufacturing recipe & process should be consistent within all BP refineries accordingly . However , Ben works within a oil refining facility , so I would defer to his opinion within this matter brother !


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## bwalker (Dec 4, 2022)

xraydaniel said:


> The cases of Go! 2T I picked up last week are refined by BP. BP has three US refineries https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/c...iness-factsheets/bp-refineries-fact-sheet.pdf
> 
> What difference might there be between the process of the US refining at Whiting and Toledo where this 2T is processed? Canada does not have any BP refineries as I can tell and only 7 exist worldwide where the Toledo-Husky refinery in Ohio is now sold to Cenovus.


I don't have any inside knowledge of BP, but I believe both of those refineries are setup to run Canadian Heavy oil, which isn't usually used to make lube stocks.
I wouldn't also assume that BP even refines the oil that goes into their two cycle oil. The co pany I work for has several refineries and we don't refine a single drop of lube stock. We buy it from others and blend it with additives bought from some other company.
If you guys realised how small the lubricants industry is it would probably supprise more than a few. Mobil for instance has the market cornered on certain weight esters and PAO's. Where do you think Amsoil buys their stocks from?? And that's just one example.


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## bwalker (Dec 4, 2022)

bucketofguts said:


> Anybody run LE Lubrication Engineers products?


I've seen it ran in mining and power plants. Mostly their grease though.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 4, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I don't have any inside knowledge of BP, but I believe both of those refineries are setup to run Canadian Heavy oil, which isn't usually used to make lube stocks.
> I wouldn't also assume that BP even refines the oil that goes into their two cycle oil. The co pany I work for has several refineries and we don't refine a single drop of lube stock. We buy it from others and blend it with additives bought from some other company.
> If you guys realised how small the lubricants industry is it would probably supprise more than a few. Mobil for instance has the market cornered on certain weight esters and PAO's. Where do you think Amsoil buys their stocks from?? And that's just one example.


Thanks for the insight , good to know !


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## JKendrick87 (Dec 28, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Wooh boy, here we go.


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## JKendrick87 (Dec 28, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Great choice. Echo Red Armor is possibly the best you could have chosen.
> 
> I'd be fine running any JASO FD oil, as long as we're talking air cooled equipment.


I’m finally seeing the light! I’ve ran Stihl silver bottle for years in my blower and trimmer and believe it or not they’re loaded with carbon. Not going down that road with my newly acquired saws.


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## Chevboy0167 (Dec 28, 2022)




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## denn (Jan 2, 2023)

Real men use *Klotz* and it's good for your sinuses


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## bwalker (Jan 2, 2023)

denn said:


> Real men use *Klotz* and it's good for your sinuses


The smell is about the only reason I would run it. Super Techniplate aroma can't be beat!


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## frogbiter (Jan 2, 2023)

Funny my negbors have 60 years old two wheel tractors and they have never seen any special treatment - quite on the contrary, still running though...


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## bwalker (Jan 2, 2023)

frogbiter said:


> Funny my negbors have 60 years old two wheel tractors and they have never seen any special treatment - quite on the contrary, still running though...


What does an old tractor have in common with a chainsaw? Not a single thing that I can think of?


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## frogbiter (Jan 2, 2023)

bwalker said:


> What does an old tractor have in common with a chainsaw? Not a single thing that I can think of?


It's a two-stroke engine. Runs on gas, not rocket science. An almost unimaginably endurance through all kinds of times. 
Just keeps on running...


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## frogbiter (Jan 2, 2023)

Not politically correct at all, but I don't have kids - and I might live for like ten more years if I'm lucky.
I care about earth I really do, but I'm just a poor man - not really payed to make decisions or have opinions for the future generations.
I leave the decisions and the inspiring word that will guide the world to a better place - to the rich people.


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## bwalker (Jan 2, 2023)

frogbiter said:


> It's a two-stroke engine. Runs on gas, not rocket science. An almost unimaginably endurance through all kinds of times.
> Just keeps on running...


But without total loss lubrication? I bet it has a much higher displacement to HP ratio?


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## frogbiter (Jan 2, 2023)

bwalker said:


> But without total loss lubrication? I bet it has a much higher displacement to HP ratio?


Oh yeas indeed, and rpm is peaceful too. Just keeps on truckin'.


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## bwalker (Jan 2, 2023)

frogbiter said:


> Oh yeas indeed, and rpm is peaceful too. Just keeps on truckin'.


So there isn't much and common at all.
What model tractor are we talking about?


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## frogbiter (Jan 2, 2023)

bwalker said:


> So there isn't much and common at all.
> What model tractor are we talking about?


Not sure, but they have those all around - old combustion engine farmer tools that just keeps on running after what? Some 50-60 years... still running.


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## Captain Bruce (Jan 2, 2023)

Fascinating, those negbors of yours.


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## benelli7d (Jan 3, 2023)

frogbiter said:


> It's a two-stroke engine. Runs on gas, not rocket science. An almost unimaginably endurance through all kinds of times.
> Just keeps on running...


You failed to mention they were 2 stroke engines in your original post and I'm sure that's why Ben asked what they have in common with saws.


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## bwalker (Jan 3, 2023)

benelli7d said:


> You failed to mention they were 2 stroke engines in your original post and I'm sure that's why Ben asked what they have in common with saws.


I did think he was referring to a 4 cycle engine.
Regardless of all that those low speed engines have little in common with a chainsaw.


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## OM617YOTA (Jan 3, 2023)

The pics posted look like four strokes to me. You can see the drain plug for the crank case on the third pic.


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## Ilmater (Jan 6, 2023)

flatsfisher said:


> as a hardcore 2 stroke dirt bike guy I can say that Motul 800 is good stuff. another great oil is Champion WP. my riding bud put 255 hours on his KTM 300XC with it and when I did a top end for him everything was perfect. not a mark. he's been using it for 25 years. I use this and have had fantastic results.


I just ordered a bottle of this on Ebay to try it out for myself. I wanted to chime in here because I actually enjoy these types of threads and reading peoples experiences, esteeming those especially that include pics of torn down motors, which most would never want to be bothered with doing (including myself, so I just go off of extensive research, reading reviews, not believing everything I read by a long shot, collating data, learning who actually knows what their talking about. For example, Pe Reivers, who died in 2013, who was a mechanical engineer designing RC aircraft engines, and Tired Old Man, a guy on RC plane forums whos JOB was to explicitly test 2 stroke oils for the US Government for 2 stroke powered drone aircraft, testing engines to literal destruction (and not by running stupidly thin ratios like 100 to 1 or anything). Because of those 2 alone are the reason I put in the effort to secure 120 quarts of Mobil 1 Racing 2T, as well as many cases of the original Pennzoil Air Cooled 2 cycle in the 3.2oz yellow bottles (not the ones that say "Outdoor" on them) - the only dino oil ever made on the planet that was/is actually listed in the official JASO PDF as JASO FD (besides C).

Generally speaking, I don't fret over the supposed "best", because even if a certain product was, there are enough other brands that are of superb quality as well, that you would never know the difference anyways.

I do "deep dives" on oils by scouring the Internet for user accounts of an oil that I find out about, and when I see multiple praises of something, on many different types of forums, from people that have nothing to do with each other, I will start to believe that said product is actually probably good. For example, there are literally *thousands* of posts across the Internet, on dozens of different forums, about MX2T/Mobil 1 Racing 2T.

Back onto Champion WP2: https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1376348-2-stroke-oil-for-trail-rider/

"I don’t have the list, but there are a lot of good oils out there for low rpm, trail riding type stuff. Maxima Super M, Motul 710, and many more. I’ve had really good luck with the Maxima. Years ago, we ran Champion WP2, (formerly Duralube). I ran the MSXC series one year on it, and did a lot of other trail riding, and had the least wear of any oil I’ve ever used."

"I’m personally not a fan of Amsoil. We just had a catastrophic failure, and when I tore it down, there was rust inside, and very little residual oil. I just can’t buy into the less oil, full synthetic, low flashpoint blah blah blah. I know what has worked for me for 30 years, and will stick with it from now on. If it were mine, I would run the Motul, Super M, or Champion at 40:1."









champion wp2 premix


I was over at the honda dealer and notied its cheaper, and if anyone likes or dislikes it, it seems like its for lawn equipment though .




www.thumpertalk.com





"I used Champion Water Pumper oil in my KX 500 for years,(and Huskys before that). Great oil, inside of the KX motor was always clean. Before they changed their name, Champion was Dura Lube. They have been around for years..I would recommend it."

"I've used this oil, Dura Lube now Champion WP2, since 1976. It is simply the best 2 stroke oil there is. If anything I don't understand why they named it WP2 because it says on the bottle, for water and air cooled motors. I raced an entire season on my 490 Maico with only .001" piston skirt wear and .004" ring end gap wear at 32/1. At 50/1 I went 5 years on a CR250 without touching the engine and it still ran strong when I sold it. In all those 35 years I have never fouled one plug. The crank always has lots of oil in it on tear down, I have never found any rust and it doesn't carbon up the exhaust port. I would not use any other oil even if it was free. It never separates from gas and it doesn't corrode the carb if your bike sits a long time. Over all the years I have been around all kinds of guys that use all kinds of different oils and all of them have some sort of issue. I've heard it all. I've never had ANY issues with this oil. It is simply the best."

Look at the reviews here: https://www.amazon.com/Champion-Pumper-2-Cycle-Racing-Premix/dp/B000GZR58Y#customerReviews

Here's a very obscure oil I ran across the other day. Someone who stated they used the above has said they've switched to this just based on availability (probably didn't want to buy gallon quantities): Dicks Oil Co CS2T ($15 a quart) https://dicksoilco.com/collections/two-stroke-lubricants/products/cs2t-two-stroke-oil-1-quart

Also, based on reading rogue60's posts, where he included multiple teardown pics, I just made an international order (from the UK) for 5 liters of Dino Castrol Garden 2T, to be shipped to the US, since you cannot buy it from anywhere within the US:

"It's mineral oil and good stuff I've used Castrol mineral oils for over 25 years. I can't vouch for all mineral oils but can vouch for Active and Garden in hard working saws clean burning excellent ring seal no blow by and never any oil layer break down allowing piston to bore contact. I will add in actual hard working work saws over 90cc I've always run 25:1 never had an oil related problem. Mineral oil scares people you will probably be talked into some expensive synthetic bike oil by weeks end lol."

https://o p e f o r u m.com/threads/high-hr-stihl-066.3514/https://o p e f o r u m.com/threads/ms880.19451/
Here's another very obscure oil that no one here has probably ever heard about (no idea if its any good just linking this if anyone wants to test it out, same with the Dicks Oil Co product mentioned earlier): http://www.recpower.com/bluemax.htm


http://www.recpower.com/docs/BlueMax_2-cycle-Oil_SDS_1-2018.pdf


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## North by Northwest (Jan 6, 2023)

Ilmater said:


> I just ordered a bottle of this on Ebay to try it out for myself. I wanted to chime in here because I actually enjoy these types of threads and reading peoples experiences, esteeming those especially that include pics of torn down motors, which most would never want to be bothered with doing (including myself, so I just go off of extensive research, reading reviews, not believing everything I read by a long shot, collating data, learning who actually knows what their talking about. For example, Pe Reivers, who died in 2013, who was a mechanical engineer designing RC aircraft engines, and Tired Old Man, a guy on RC plane forums whos JOB was to explicitly test 2 stroke oils for the US Government for 2 stroke powered drone aircraft, testing engines to literal destruction (and not by running stupidly thin ratios like 100 to 1 or anything). Because of those 2 alone are the reason I put in the effort to secure 120 quarts of Mobil 1 Racing 2T, as well as many cases of the original Pennzoil Air Cooled 2 cycle in the 3.2oz yellow bottles (not the ones that say "Outdoor" on them) - the only dino oil ever made on the planet that was/is actually listed in the official JASO PDF as JASO FD (besides C).
> 
> Generally speaking, I don't fret over the supposed "best", because even if a certain product was, there are enough other brands that are of superb quality as well, that you would never know the difference anyways.
> 
> ...


#1 , Premium grade mineral oil is a 1st generation synthetic oil . #2 , You used the wrong Amsoil product for your application . Many synthetic grade oils with the wrong base or additive package will cause rust formation during storage especially . I have ran every conceivable oil formulation manufactured , have never had a catastrophic engine failure of any kind while racing or recreational usage of sleds , bikes or ***. recreational engines . There are at least a dozen premium oils that are more than adequate for today's 2 strokes engines . I just recently finished a evaluation of Red Armour Synthetic in 2 high performance sleds , I found it superb in a Polaris 650 RXL & more than adequate in a 850 RMK . Both sleds previously had run flawlessly on Amsoil Interceptor & Dominator & Shell XT high performance mineral sled oil for over 2- 3 yrs within severe service applications . Any premium oil , ran within the proper ratio for their application will provide excellent service !


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## Ilmater (Jan 6, 2023)

North by Northwest said:


> Any premium oil , ran within the proper ratio for their application will provide excellent service !


Most, not any. Redline Racing 2- stroke is considered a premium oil, and there are many accounts on this forum, and others, with the same accounts of rust inside the crankcase, corroded/tarnished brass carb jets. Then there's Lucas "High Performance" Semi-Synthetic, an oil many "swear by" because they are ignorant, an oil that has been utterly and completely exposed on this forum and others to be complete garbage and should never be used unless one wants to purposely destroy their engine by having dry internals even at a 25:1 ratio. Real world testing means something, claims by multiple manufacturers over the years have been repeatedly proven (on this forum even) to be outright lies. I can post probably 5-6 quotes from different RC aircraft forums where multiple different people have had multi-thousand dollar RC planes fall out of the sky due to engine seizure using Amsoil Saber, caused from its high metallic ash additive concentration (to enable it to "be used at 100:1") along with many accounts of Saber producing unbelievably hard black carbon, moreso than that observed in any other oil.

P.S. Let's not forget about Stihl HP Ultra, incessantly pushed on everyone that walks into a Stihl dealership nationwide.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 6, 2023)

Ilmater said:


> Most, not any. Redline Racing 2- stroke is considered a premium oil, and there are many accounts on this forum, and others, with the same accounts of rust inside the crankcase, corroded/tarnished brass carb jets. Then there's Lucas "High Performance" Semi-Synthetic, an oil many "swear by" because they are ignorant, an oil that has been utterly and completely exposed on this forum and others to be complete garbage and should never be used unless one wants to purposely destroy their engine by having dry internals even at a 25:1 ratio. Real world testing means something, claims by multiple manufacturers over the years have been repeatedly proven (on this forum even) to be outright lies. I can post probably 5-6 quotes from different RC aircraft forums where multiple different people have had multi-thousand dollar RC planes fall out of the sky due to engine seizure using Amsoil Saber, caused from its high metallic ash additive concentration (to enable it to "be used at 100:1") along with many accounts of Saber producing unbelievably hard black carbon, moreso than that observed in any other oil.
> 
> P.S. Let's not forget about Stihl HP Ultra, incessantly pushed on everyone that walks into a Stihl dealership nationwide.


#1 There are numerous synthetic blended oils that will cause internal corrosion , especially within long term storage, Red line is only one such oil . #2 I have used Saber for 3 yrs within my high performance Polaris 650 Air cooled RXL @ a Premix 50:1 ratio with excellent results . Amsoil Sabre is designed for handheld air cooled engines , not RC engines . Although rated @ 100:1 within properly tuned hand held units , I personally would not recommend or use it at less than 50:1 in my equipment . # 3 Ultra was designed to be used only in Stihl's 4-mix engines , personally I personally would not use it in any 2 cycle engine lol . P.S. You missed the point within my original statement "Application" entails appropriate premium mineral oil for the application . E.g: using a premium grade Marine oil within a high performance air cooled engine would be inappropriate or a bad selection for an air cooled chainsaw application for example . P.SS. I have never utilized any Red line oil product , but have witnessed numerous complaints of its downside . Have though seen & heard numerous testimonials from very knowledgible people including engine builders, of the benefits & quality of Red Armor oil , when utilized as recommended !


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## Ilmater (Jan 6, 2023)

North by Northwest said:


> Have though seen & heard numerous testimonials from very knowledgible people including engine builders, of the benefits & quality of Red Armour oil !


I've never used it, but I don't see a serious issue with it (minus the cost) from the numerous testimonials (cept for spooge buildup in mufflers that's been reported) and pics everywhere. One thing about this oil that I don't think many are aware of is that there is an identical product that is blue instead of red called Maruyama Blue Shield, if you want the same oil in blue =) Look at the sds's, they're the same (or at least the Maruyama labeled version matches the original Red Armor that listed the Ester in the sds).


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## North by Northwest (Jan 6, 2023)

Ilmater said:


> I've never used it, but I don't see a serious issue with it (minus the cost) from the numerous testimonials (cept for spooge buildup in mufflers that's been reported) and pics everywhere. One thing about this oil that I don't think many are aware of is that there is an identical product that is blue instead of red called Maruyama Blue Shield, if you want the same oil in blue =) Look at the sds's, they're the same (or at least the Maruyama labeled version matches the original Red Armor that listed the Ester in the sds).


Apparently , the original Red Armor recipe has been altered , I believe within the last 9-12 mth . However the product is still highly recommended by numerous 2T engine builders & porters . The msds would indicate perhaps the actual changes within the chemical composition ? P.S. Also sponge deposits are also caused by improper tune , where insufficient heat within combustion causes the formation accordingly !


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## bwalker (Jan 6, 2023)

Ester oils will always be suboptimal for corrosion protection. Additives do not change this fact.































































































































North likes Amsoil. I do not, if only because IMO the company isn't reputable. They use scam advertising with bogus tests and really their oils are nothing special.Certainly they are no better than oils made by the oil majors.































































I wish I could.still get some MX2T/Mobil 2R. It was Superb oil


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## bwalker (Jan 6, 2023)

North by Northwest said:


> Apparently , the original Red Armor recipe has been altered , I believe within the last 9-12 mth . However the product is still highly recommended by numerous 2T engine builders & porters . The msds would indicate perhaps the actual changes within the chemical composition ?





North by Northwest said:


> Apparently , the original Red Armor recipe has been altered , I believe within the last 9-12 mth . However the product is still highly recommended by numerous 2T engine builders & porters . The msds would indicate perhaps the actual changes within the chemical composition ?


I am notnsure the formula changed. Ester does not need to be listed on a MSDS so not seeing it on a newer MSDS doesn't tell you definitively that the formulation changed. Just something to consider.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 6, 2023)

bwalker said:


> Ester oils will always be suboptimal for corrosion protection. Additives change this fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ben , is correct in all three analogies !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 6, 2023)

bwalker said:


> I am notnsure the formula changed. Ester does not need to be listed on a MSDS so not seeing it on a newer MSDS doesn't tell you definitively that the formulation changed. Just something to consider.


Yeah , I remember your previous opinion on the msds , thus the ?


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## Ilmater (Jan 6, 2023)

Here's some interesting technical info that I ran across along time ago. Basically there was a study done by Yamaha Motors showing that there is actually a detrimental effect of the PIB additive used in in most synthetic and semi-synthetic 2 cycle oils. It sates that PIB actually *increases* bearing wear specifically, (probably dependent on amount used), which may be an advantage for actual, true dino oils (like Castrol Garden 2t or Activ 2t) because there is no PIB in their formulations. Document is linked below as well as a quote by a former expert on this kind of thing.






Stihl Oil ? - Page 3 - FlyingGiants


Page 3-Discussion Stihl Oil ? Gas Engines




www.flyinggiants.com





"Now remains the question of the PB (poly-butene) oils and additives which take care of the "D" part in ISO-L-EGD, and subsequent Jaso FD, and even the revived API spec. Having run two types of reputed quality "D" oil, I found that the cylinder walls show some kind of varnish-like discoloration, and that the rings do not seem to tough the metal smooth surface at all. The crosshatch from honing is 100% intact, except in the upper cylinder part where ring pressure are extremely high.

What also worries me is the reportedly higher needle bearing temperatures when using PB concocted oils. These oils cling like hell to any metal surface, and gasoline flows off without diluting the film, so film replenishment is due to suffer??? As image I enclose part of a Yamaha publication, showing lubricity of different oils. BLIX is the index. values >100 indicate cooler running bearings than the reference oil JATRE-1"

Study on Bearing Lubricity with
2-stroke Engine Oil
Hideaki Kawabe Mitsuaki Ishimaru
● Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd./ Nippon Oil Corporation



Wayback Machine



Image excerpt from above:


https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/uploads/1/5/4/7/7/a533815-130-PB-BLIX1.jpg


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## flatsfisher (Jan 6, 2023)

Ilmater said:


> I just ordered a bottle of this on Ebay to try it out for myself. I wanted to chime in here because I actually enjoy these types of threads and reading peoples experiences, esteeming those especially that include pics of torn down motors, which most would never want to be bothered with doing (including myself, so I just go off of extensive research, reading reviews, not believing everything I read by a long shot, collating data, learning who actually knows what their talking about. For example, Pe Reivers, who died in 2013, who was a mechanical engineer designing RC aircraft engines, and Tired Old Man, a guy on RC plane forums whos JOB was to explicitly test 2 stroke oils for the US Government for 2 stroke powered drone aircraft, testing engines to literal destruction (and not by running stupidly thin ratios like 100 to 1 or anything). Because of those 2 alone are the reason I put in the effort to secure 120 quarts of Mobil 1 Racing 2T, as well as many cases of the original Pennzoil Air Cooled 2 cycle in the 3.2oz yellow bottles (not the ones that say "Outdoor" on them) - the only dino oil ever made on the planet that was/is actually listed in the official JASO PDF as JASO FD (besides C).
> 
> Generally speaking, I don't fret over the supposed "best", because even if a certain product was, there are enough other brands that are of superb quality as well, that you would never know the difference anyways.
> 
> ...


and I thought I had the biggest stash of MX2T lol. guess not.


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## Ilmater (Jan 6, 2023)

flatsfisher said:


> and I thought I had the biggest stash of MX2T lol. guess not.


I sold it all years ago, (some of it to someone here) and had to give some away due to a move. Lately I've been experimenting with: https://www.essentialube.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/TDS-0058-HyFilm-Hy-Rev-2-Cycle-Oil.pdf

And I ordered that stuff you mentioned, the WP2, plus I'm going to try Castrol Garden 2T from the UK when it comes in, just because =)


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## flatsfisher (Jan 6, 2023)

I see some quarts of MX2T on ebay for 25-30.00 a qt. crazy.


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## huskihl (Jan 6, 2023)

Ilmater said:


> I sold it all years ago, (some of it to someone here) and had to give some away due to a move. Lately I've been experimenting with: https://www.essentialube.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/TDS-0058-HyFilm-Hy-Rev-2-Cycle-Oil.pdf
> 
> And I ordered that stuff you mentioned, the WP2, plus I'm going to try Castrol Garden 2T from the UK when it comes in, just because =)


I don’t know anything about msds sheets, but if interested, you might compare Castrol GO! to their Active or Garden 2T and see if they’re possibly the same but different names in other countries. GO is available the US and quite inexpensive


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## Tomos770 (Jan 7, 2023)

flatsfisher said:


> I see some quarts of MX2T on ebay for 25-30.00 a qt. crazy.


15euros/L....not bad!









Mobil 1 Racing 2T


Sintetično moto olje za motorna kolesa Mobil 1 Racing 2T podaljšuje življenjsko dobo motorja, preprečuje predčasne vžige in ima zelo stabilen oljni film.




motornaolja.com


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## SimonHS (Jan 7, 2023)

huskihl said:


> I don’t know anything about msds sheets, but if interested, you might compare Castrol GO! to their Active or Garden 2T and see if they’re possibly the same but different names in other countries. GO is available the US and quite inexpensive



That's a very good question. Castrol Garden is cheap and plentiful here. And I've heard good things about Castrol Go.


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## coldfront1 (Jan 7, 2023)

Use stihl oil only for these 4 mix engines or roll the dice on something else


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## North by Northwest (Jan 7, 2023)

coldfront1 said:


> Use stihl oil only for these 4 mix engines or roll the dice on something else



Poor engineering design seen it previously in a Harley application where Timkin full roller bearings were replaced with cheap INA offshore plastic caged bearings on their camshaft applications . The plastic cage holding the bearings would heat up and break down over time & the needles would fall out within the cam chest & grenade the engine within a short period of time !


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## bwalker (Jan 7, 2023)

North by Northwest said:


> Apparently , the original Red Armor recipe has been altered , I believe within the last 9-12 mth . However the product is still highly recommended by numerous 2T engine builders & porters . The msds would indicate perhaps the actual changes within the chemical composition ?
> 
> 
> 
> Ben , is correct in all three analogies !





North by Northwest said:


> Ben , is correct in all three analogies !


Notice my edit. IE additives don't really change thebfact ester oils are not great for corrosion protection. For starters you can't get the treat rate high enough with them before you are over sulfated ash limits.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 7, 2023)

Tomos770 said:


> 15euros/L....not bad!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it would be very hard to find someone willing to ship it.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 7, 2023)

Ilmater said:


> Here's some interesting technical info that I ran across along time ago. Basically there was a study done by Yamaha Motors showing that there is actually a detrimental effect of the PIB additive used in in most synthetic and semi-synthetic 2 cycle oils. It sates that PIB actually *increases* bearing wear specifically, (probably dependent on amount used), which may be an advantage for actual, true dino oils (like Castrol Garden 2t or Activ 2t) because there is no PIB in their formulations. Document is linked below as well as a quote by a former expert on this kind of thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read that study years ago. Basicly it recognized the benefits of PIB. IE very high film strength and resistance to liquid gasoline wiping it off. It also set limits for concentration. Above which the increased bearing temps noted may appear. Is this surprising given ita a high viscosity fluid? Not in my opinion. High viscosity lubes always do this.
Regardless, 30 years latter all the latest two cycle formulations contain PIB and for good reason.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 7, 2023)

bwalker said:


> Notice my edit. IE additives don't really change thebfact ester oils are not great for corrosion protection. For starters you can't get the treat rate high enough with them before you are over sulfated ash limits.


Yep , i hear you brother . Reverse engineering is never absolutely effective !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 7, 2023)

bwalker said:


> I read that study years ago. Basicly it recognized the benefits of PIB. IE very high film strength and resistance to liquid gasoline wiping it off. It also set limits for concentration. Above which the increased bearing temps noted may appear. Is this surprising given ita a high viscosity fluid? Not in my opinion. High viscosity lubes always do this.
> Regardless, 30nyears latter all the latest two cycle formulations contain PIB and for good reason.


Absolutely right , very little capilliary action involved within the higher viscocity oils . More film strength but very little creep to protect those rollers .


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## Lightning Performance (Jan 7, 2023)

Blue oil is good oil


----------



## bwalker (Jan 7, 2023)

North by Northwest said:


> Absolutely right , very little capilliary action involved within the higher viscocity oils . More film strength but very little creep action to protect those rollers .


The heat comes from the churning of the roller against the thick fluid.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 7, 2023)

bwalker said:


> The heat comes from the churning of the roller against the thick fluid.


I agree , high viscocity oils often do not maintain minimal boundry viscosity for the class of bearing fit utilized . Optimium Kinematic viscocity is often not met also , which will certainly involve creation of friction & potential bearing wear & lose of critical tolerances that under load can often attribute to catostrophic failure . I worked with a few bearing / lubrication specialists during my tenure in the Steel Industry . Ultransonic & Infrared Thermal preventative testing would indicate abnormal noise frequencies & higher than normal temps that would identify bearing wear prior to actual bearing failures . So that proper pm scheduling changes could be developed on critical equipment to reduce future unscheduled downtimes . I realize that many of my industrial applications involved low rpm & high load applications rather than the high rpm & low load that are routine within a saw usage , however much of the basic working knowledge of bearing design & maintenance is transferable .


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Sunday at 3:56 AM)

Test or no tests, advertising or no advertising, Amsoil has amazed me as a mechanic of over 25 years. I wouldn't trust my life to anything else in my paramotor. I run nothing but Saber. ZERO carbon buildup, and it keeps the fuel good for far longer than you would think. There's plenty of good synthetic off-road oils out there by a few different brands, but when temperatures get stupid high, you can't beat this stuff. Hardly a company with a bad reputation.

The stuff has also kept my truck alive towing stuff I shouldn't have towed with a half ton pickup.


----------



## North by Northwest (Sunday at 8:54 AM)

I agree Smitty . I have used Amsoil Products since 2013 . I agree with Ben also , that they put out a lot of hype though . Although , I can't find better sourcing of product for the $ . I currently have 5 gallons of Red Armor I got for a very good batch price . I use Sabre in all my recreational saws , very good results for over 10 yrs . My Commercial grade have always ran Interceptor & more recently Dominator . I like the Red Armor , I just finished a trial with it in one of my old 650 race sleds , nice product for a vintage factory modified free air triple .


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## lone wolf (Sunday at 9:01 AM)

coldfront1 said:


> Use stihl oil only for these 4 mix engines or roll the dice on something else



I have been using Amsoil Saber in my Stihl backpack blower for years and years.


----------



## North by Northwest (Sunday at 9:27 AM)

lone wolf said:


> I have been using Amsoil Saber in my Stihl backpack blower for years and years.


Not at 100:1 Wolfy ?


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## lone wolf (Sunday at 9:29 AM)

North by Northwest said:


> Not at 100:1 Wolfy ?


HELL NO 40:1 seems to be working good.


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 9:33 AM)

lone wolf said:


> HELL NO 40:1 seems to be working good.


Sorry lol , just yanking you chain bud  . How's life treating you ?


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## lone wolf (Sunday at 9:34 AM)

North by Northwest said:


> Sorry lol , just yanking you chain bud  . How's life treating you ?


I know you well enough to realize that. Happy New Year.


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 10:04 AM)

lone wolf said:


> I know you well enough to realize that. Happy New Year.


Happy New Year to you & yours brother !


----------



## bucketofguts (Sunday at 10:27 AM)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Test or no tests, advertising or no advertising, Amsoil has amazed me as a mechanic of over 25 years. I wouldn't trust my life to anything else in my paramotor. I run nothing but Saber. ZERO carbon buildup, and it keeps the fuel good for far longer than you would think. There's plenty of good synthetic off-road oils out there by a few different brands, but when temperatures get stupid high, you can't beat this stuff. Hardly a company with a bad reputation.
> 
> The stuff has also kept my truck alive towing stuff I shouldn't have towed with a half ton pickup.View attachment 1047129
> 
> ...


Interesting way you have your Hoe bucket secured?


----------



## bwalker (Sunday at 4:53 PM)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Test or no tests, advertising or no advertising, Amsoil has amazed me as a mechanic of over 25 years. I wouldn't trust my life to anything else in my paramotor. I run nothing but Saber. ZERO carbon buildup, and it keeps the fuel good for far longer than you would think. There's plenty of good synthetic off-road oils out there by a few different brands, but when temperatures get stupid high, you can't beat this stuff. Hardly a company with a bad reputation.
> 
> The stuff has also kept my truck alive towing stuff I shouldn't have towed with a half ton pickup.View attachment 1047129
> 
> ...


Much of the carbon buildup in a two cycle motor comes from the gasoline and not the oil. After all a four stroke motors piston will be covered with carbon. If your motor truly has zero carbon than you are pig rich. A properly tuned motor should have a piston that is covered in carbon save a small amount of wash if the transfer ports discharge flat. 
Saber isn't even Amsoils highest quality product.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Sunday at 5:32 PM)

bucketofguts said:


> Interesting way you have your Hoe bucket secured?


Just had to keep it from swinging side to side for the 8 mile journey home. I'll NEVER haul it with that truck again, nor will I load it that way. I couldn't go over 20 mph because it was so friggin tail heavy. 



bwalker said:


> Much of the carbon buildup in a two cycle motor comes from the gasoline and not the oil. After all a four stroke motors piston will be covered with carbon. If your motor truly has zero carbon than you are pig rich. A properly tuned motor should have a piston that is covered in carbon save a small amount of wash if the transfer ports discharge flat.
> Saber isn't even Amsoils highest quality product.


I was talking about the exhaust port. Of course every engine has carbon on the piston! That's like saying, "Water is WET".  When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil. That spooge will eventually choke off exhaust flow, turning as hard as a brick. Seen it a million times in everything from chainsaws to open-class 500cc motocross bikes.

1st pic, you can see the point where the prop passes the exhaust - this was 50:1 on Maxima. I had just switched to Saber, and hadn't cleaned the prop. On Maxima, black spooge oozed from EVERY part of that pipe! Made a friggin mess. 2nd pic is Saber at 66:1. Both with the same high / low mixture screw setting. After the Maxima burnt off, the pipe has remained super clean.


----------



## Kel71 (Sunday at 5:40 PM)

Smitty When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil.


Spooge problem = Jetting problem


----------



## bwalker (Sunday at 5:46 PM)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Just had to keep it from swinging side to side for the 8 mile journey home. I'll NEVER haul it with that truck again, nor will I load it that way. I couldn't go over 20 mph because it was so friggin tail heavy. ￼
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Just had to keep it from swinging side to side for the 8 mile journey home. I'll NEVER haul it with that truck again, nor will I load it that way. I couldn't go over 20 mph because it was so friggin tail heavy.
> 
> 
> I was talking about the exhaust port. Of course every engine has carbon on the piston! That's like saying, "Water is WET".  When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil. That spooge will eventually choke off exhaust flow, turning as hard as a brick. Seen it a million times in everything from chainsaws to open-class 500cc motocross bikes.
> ...


Spooge is a product of improper carb tuning in nearly every case. I can say for certain that maxima super M or K2 will not spooge at all when tuned right, even at 32:1.
The fact you noted less spooge with Saber was because you also decreased oil content.
BTW that's a nice rig. If I could get something like that that would haul 150 lbs in addition to my body weight I would be all over it for hunting land locked public land.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Sunday at 6:27 PM)

Can’t fault Saber, I get it cheaper than dominator too. Looks great, smells great and burns great. 40:1

I agree about the hype from Amsoil, it’s off putting but I like the product. 

I tried dominator because others here like it, but it’s dirty in my ***. Not surprising, it’s an oil designed for race use.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Sunday at 7:41 PM)

Kel71 said:


> Smitty When you have a trail of black spooge pouring out the exhaust, you need a better oil.
> 
> 
> Spooge problem = Jetting problem


Nope. Look at the pictures. I doubt that 16 points leaner on the oil / fuel mixture made this dramatic of a difference.

Both the low and high screws are at the EXACT SAME settings. Only difference was a change to Amsoil Saber, and leaning the ratio 16 points.

I wish I had taken more pics of this. Pipe was DRIPPING, and you can see the black spot on the prop - that was after cleaning that off SEVERAL times - it would come back almost immediately. Only change was the oil, and ALL that mess was gone. 

But, you're free to believe what you wish.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Sunday at 7:49 PM)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Can’t fault Saber, I get it cheaper than dominator too. Looks great, smells great and burns great. 40:1
> 
> I agree about the hype from Amsoil, it’s off putting but I like the product.
> 
> I tried dominator because others here like it, but it’s dirty in my ***. Not surprising, it’s an oil designed for race use.


Yep, Dominator is pretty dirty burning. I run it in my '74 RD350. Oil injected. I don't run Saber in that because I believe it's viscosity is too high for the injection pump to last, or function as designed.

The pics don't do it justice - those pipes are SOAKED. 


And for the record, I spent DAYS jetting these carbs. They are as good as they can get, slightly on the rich side wide open, perfect at cruise.


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 7:59 PM)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Yep, Dominator is pretty dirty burning. I run it in my '74 RD350. Oil injected. I don't run Saber in that because I believe it's viscosity is too high for the injection pump to last, or function as designed.
> 
> The pics don't do it justice - those pipes are SOAKED.
> 
> ...


Try Interceptor in your injector application , I think you will be pleasantly surprised !


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 8:10 PM)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Can’t fault Saber, I get it cheaper than dominator too. Looks great, smells great and burns great. 40:1
> 
> I agree about the hype from Amsoil, it’s off putting but I like the product.
> 
> I tried dominator because others here like it, but it’s dirty in my ***. Not surprising, it’s an oil designed for race use.


Dominator has to be run in a high temperature application & jetted correctly , along with a sharp tune . I ran it in my Air cooled Polaris 600 RXL Triple with excellent results . I tried it in my Polaris 850 RMK liquid cooled Twin a little dirty . Finally did a trial with my Polaris 700 SKS liquid twin which runs a little hottter & tuned tighter , it is satisfactory . P.S. I previously ran the Saber in the RXL & SKS as a Premix @ 50:1 also Interceptor as a Premix & Injector in all 3 sleds no problem . Today all my saws run either Saber or Dominator although I intend to start running Red Armor in my Commercial grade Huskys & Dolkitas & my Milling MS 660 along with the RXL & SKS .


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## bwalker (Sunday at 8:14 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> Dominator has to be run in a high temperature application & jetted correctly , along with a sharp tune . I ran it in my Air cooled Polaris 600 RXL Triple with excellent results . I tried it in my Polaris 850 RMK liquid cooled Twin a little dirty . Finally did a trial with my Polaris 700 SKS liquid twin which runs a little hotter & it is satisfactory . P.S. I previously ran the Saber in the RXL & SKS as a Premix @ 50:1 also Interceptor as a Premix & Injector in all 3 sleds no problem . Today all my saws run either Saber or Dominator although I intend to start running Red Armor in my Commercial grade Huskys & Dolkitas & my Milling MS 660 .


I've only ever ran a few quarts of Dominator in a 2017 YZ250. It ran very clean for me at 32:1.
I can assure you guys that most any oil will have a dry exhaust if tuned right, even at ratios below 32:1. This is with the caveat that the load is adequate. An engine idling for extended periods or run under very low loads will spooge regardless of ratio.


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## bwalker (Sunday at 8:16 PM)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Nope. Look at the pictures. I doubt that 16 points leaner on the oil / fuel mixture made this dramatic of a difference.
> 
> Both the low and high screws are at the EXACT SAME settings. Only difference was a change to Amsoil Saber, and leaning the ratio 16 points.
> 
> ...


It's tuning and load that causes spooge... I've ran castor blend oils and had a perfectly dry exhaust..


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 8:24 PM)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Nope. Look at the pictures. I doubt that 16 points leaner on the oil / fuel mixture made this dramatic of a difference.
> 
> Both the low and high screws are at the EXACT SAME settings. Only difference was a change to Amsoil Saber, and leaning the ratio 16 points.
> 
> ...


Sponge in my applications is often due to a oil that is designed for higher operating temps than my application . I can tune very well & in some situations rejetting is not practical . Dominator requires severe service (load) or high temp usage to burn clean . That is why its not used in any of my homeowner saws . They get a diet of Saber @ 50:1 for over 10 yrs . Top end is clean & a nice shine on the bearings . P.S. I believe your higher elevation para - ultralite application likely causes a rich tune condition , that can contribute to your sponge condition concern ?


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 8:33 PM)

bwalker said:


> It's tuning and load that causes spooge... I've ran castor blend oils and had a perfectly dry exhaust..


Dry exhaust perhaps with Techniplate , using R50 we always had carry over of carbon in the tuned pipes , although never a true spoonge concern in the air cooled or liquid cooled sled triples of the day . I agree with you Ben that tuning is the key & within cycles rejetting also is critical & very practical .


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 8:36 PM)

bwalker said:


> I've only ever ran a few quarts of Dominator in a 2017 YZ250. It ran very clean for me at 32:1.
> I can assure you guys that most any oil will have a dry exhaust if tuned right, even at ratios below 32:1. This is with the caveat that the load is adequate. An engine idling for extended periods or run under very low loads will spooge regardless of ratio.


Load factor & sufficient operating temperature are extremely important with Dominator in my experience , much more than Interceptor which is a lower viscosity oil .


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Sunday at 8:39 PM)

bwalker said:


> I've only ever ran a few quarts of Dominator in a 2017 YZ250. It ran very clean for me at 32:1.
> I can assure you guys that most any oil will have a dry exhaust if tuned right, even at ratios below 32:1. This is with the caveat that the load is adequate. An engine idling for extended periods or run under very low loads will spooge regardless of ratio.


I didn’t have any issues of splooge on my engines running dominator, just dirty plugs. I agree with North by Northwest, I think it needs good constant load, a sharp tune and engines that are ran to their extreme. Saber seems more forgiving.

Edit, heat is an interesting one, because these air cooled engines will run much hotter than the liquid cooled bikes.


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## North by Northwest (Sunday at 8:56 PM)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I didn’t have any issues of splooge on my engines running dominator, just dirty plugs. I agree with North by Northwest, I think it needs good constant load, a sharp tune and engines that are ran to their extreme. Saber seems more forgiving.
> 
> Edit, heat is an interesting one, because these air cooled engines will run much hotter than the liquid cooled bikes.


Thanks brother . I have raced & wrenched sleds for over 30 yrs . My 3 Polaris sleds are fine examples of the technology changes of high performance snowmobiles over the last few decades . Its very interesting how they react to diverse oil usage within air cooled & liquid cooling . The compression & operating conditions (load) on all 3 are equivalent . Only the operating temperatures vary accordingly . The new RMK is satisfactory with Dominator , however just not as clean as I would like within the plug readings . It runs a lot in the deep powder @ higher elevations which may contribute to the less stellar coloration . I was going to run a little hotter plug to clarify , however warmer temps lately & snow conditions has made that a moot consideration lol . Anyhow , I know what I know with sleds , cycles & saws enough to not require Dealership assistance , however to a lesser degree


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## jcquade (Sunday at 9:46 PM)

I have a stihl ms251. In reading the posts I believe I can go 40:1 with echo red armour. I want to protect my piston that is why I am thinking of not going 50:1 as recommended by stihl. Am I on the right track?


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## Chucksta (Sunday at 10:34 PM)

When I first met my girlfriend, she would re fuel her weed eater, by pouring gas ( regular pump gas)), in the tank, and then grab a bottle of whatever the hell she had on the shelf in the garage, and add "glug, glug", to the weed eater tank, give it a shake, and then just go.
To say the least, as I have a rip roaring case of OCD when it comes as to what I fuel my stuff with, I just about spit my lunch out on her. "WTF are you doing?".. Her reply? I've been doing this for years!!
So, at the end of the day, her Homelite POS less than a hundred buck weed whacker, has survived for well over a decade with whatever stale gas she had left over from last year, and a "glug, glug", of whatever lubricant was sitting on a shelf in the garage.. 10W/30? 0W40? whatever, that Homelite POS, just ate it up and came back for more. Never took more than three pulls to start. I finally put a fresh plug into it for it's 15th anniversary. I've also fueled it with Amsoil and Ethanol free Premium since. She's not allowed to fuel small engines any more. 
My own stuff? Well, let's just say that I'm not the best at maintenance. I ran a Landscaping company, and I bought Echo stuff. ( kicking bang for the buck) I beat the snot out of all the stuff I bought from the local Dealer. PAS 225 powerheads, and 355T saws, and a lot more gear, all the stuff to be a Landscaping company. And, I invested in a couple of old school LawnBoy mowers ( I love the smell of 2 stroke in the morning and "personal pace" rocks!). 
So? What to run for fuel? Do I want to run 3 different cans of mix? Oh, hell no!!
What do I land up with? 
Amsoil Saber. 
As I employed idiots, I made fueling simple. 3 Liters of Ethanol free Premium fuel, Squeeze one packet of Saber into it, shaken twice, and fuel up. That gave me a mix ratio of about 70 to 1.. Amsoil Dealer said it'd be cheaper to buy bulk.. I said no way, the extra expense was worth it to make it idiot proof!! Idiots are way less per hour!!
Used that 70 to 1 mix in all the Echo stuff. Used it in the 32 to 1 ( recommended) LawnBoy stuff too.
Never worried about any mix ratio, or Manufacturers specs. Just ran the Saber at 70 to 1. 
Sure .. it said that 100 to 1 was do-able... But why risk it? 70 to 1... no smoke, no exhaust fouling, plugs look great, starts great, great life expectancy. 
Beat the living crap out of the gear. Never did any maintenance unless something wouldn't start, or run run right( and that virtually never happened).
I've got line trimmers with well over 500 hours on them that still rock. For what Amsoil costs, I think I'll stick with it.
It's also the only thing that goes in my boat (2 stroke premix). 
I'd use it in my Skidoos, but I think I'll just stick to BRP full synthetic..


----------



## WCarp (Sunday at 10:56 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> I agree Smitty . I have used Amsoil Products since 2013 . I agree with Ben that they put out a lot of hype though . Although , I can't find better sourcing of product for the $ . I currently have 5 gallons of Red Armor I got for a very good batch price . I use Sabre in all my recreational saws , very good results for over 10 yrs . My Commercial grade have always ran Interceptor & more recently Dominator . I like the Red Armor , I just finished a trial with it in one of my old 650 race sleds , nice product for a vintage factory modified free air triple .


I am not aware of any evidence that Amsoil puts out hype.


----------



## Vintage Engine Repairs (Sunday at 11:57 PM)

WCarp said:


> I am not aware of any evidence that Amsoil puts out hype.


I saw documentation on a 300 hour strimmer test they conducted against Echo. There was no load on the engines, the test was poorly conducted and biased. They ran 100:1 echo at 50:1. Of course, no load and a lot of part throttle will mean more carbon production on a higher oil ratio engine. I love Saber, I don’t like Amsoils marketing or as a company.

Just like Milwaukee, I love my Milwaukee m12 tools, I hate Milwaukees marketing, fake, biased tests and the company itself for it. 

Example of Milwaukee, you tell me if this is fair?


----------



## rambo2_981 (Monday at 5:25 AM)

lone wolf said:


> HELL NO 40:1 seems to be working good.


Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?

“Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”


----------



## North by Northwest (Monday at 8:33 AM)

jcquade said:


> I have a stihl ms251. In reading the posts I believe I can go 40:1 with echo red armour. I want to protect my piston that is why I am thinking of not going 50:1 as recommended by stihl. Am I on the right track?


With what my evaluations have indicated & what I have seen within some very well tuned saws from a few engine builders 40:1 or 50:1 would be more than adequate for any saw usage other than dedicated milling application. !


----------



## North by Northwest (Monday at 8:39 AM)

rambo2_981 said:


> Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?
> 
> “Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”


I love Saber , however if you seriously believe that hype , I have some property for sale you may be interested in ? However , to be serious clean with 50% less oil may be accurate , however protection to bearings has nothing to do with cleanliness . As far as Stihl , if its Stihl Ultra vs Saber no comparison within efficiency of protection or being clean burning . Ultra has to be the dirtiest oil I have ever witnessed with a saw , that's including some castor's brother. !


----------



## lone wolf (Monday at 8:42 AM)

rambo2_981 said:


> Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?
> 
> “Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”


Keep in mind all that stuff is forced by the EPA. Common sense would tell you 100 to one is no good.


----------



## lone wolf (Monday at 8:44 AM)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I saw documentation on a 300 hour strimmer test they conducted against Echo. There was no load on the engines, the test was poorly conducted and biased. They ran 100:1 echo at 50:1. Of course, no load and a lot of part throttle will mean more carbon production on a higher oil ratio engine. I love Saber, I don’t like Amsoils marketing or as a company.
> 
> Just like Milwaukee, I love my Milwaukee m12 tools, I hate Milwaukees marketing, fake, biased tests and the company itself for it.
> 
> Example of Milwaukee, you tell me if this is fair?



Sounded pig rich too.


----------



## North by Northwest (Monday at 9:38 AM)

WCarp said:


> I am not aware of any evidence that Amsoil puts out hype.


Then you have not been following & using their products for over 10 yrs as I have , lots of speculative & unsubstantiate info unfortunately . I have no problem with their product or pricing , I purchase quality premium grade oil for between $12 to $14 a quart CDN . That's more than a fair price & it's shipped to my door within 2 days of the order , sometimes over nite . I never believed the scams oil hype either . It's good oil , I will continue to use it , if someone doesn't like the product , fine more for me . However , to be honest their over the top misleading advertising is counter productive in my opinion !


----------



## OM617YOTA (Monday at 9:39 AM)

rambo2_981 said:


> Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?
> 
> “Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”



If you wouldn't drain 3 out of the 5 quarts of oil out of your car and go drive it, you probably shouldn't run 100:1 either.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Monday at 9:53 AM)

rambo2_981 said:


> Stihl says 50:1. Amsoil advertises 100:1 for theirs is compatible with Stihl’s 50:1. Is that accurate?
> 
> “Delivers improved cleanliness mixed at the SABER Ratio™ of 100:1 compared to other oils mixed at a conventional 50:1 ratio.”


Stick to 40:1


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## bucketofguts (Monday at 12:15 PM)

I wish this thread would run pure Pure Sunoco racing fuel straight for just one page. You will be a amazed. Just kidding. I enjoy the madness!


----------



## John Lyngdal (Monday at 6:18 PM)

Since this is an oil thread:

The relevant parts I want to point to in this video occur at the 4:50 and 6:00 minutes marks where an un-combusted gas detector is used and apply this to comments about higher oil content causing saws to run leaner. As this video points out, some 2 cycle oils combust less than others. The longer the hydrocarbon chain, the more oxygen it takes to fully combust it, but if it isn't fully combusted it will result in smoke and higher levels on un-combusted gas emissions and possibly a lean run condition. If the 2-cycle oil is combusted, it gets burned just like the primary fuel component which should mitigate the lean run situation. The true test would be to measure the un-combusted gas levels using a 40:1 mix and a 50:1 mix without adjusting the jets.


----------



## lone wolf (Monday at 6:25 PM)

Which reminds me of what my Stihl dealer told me that if I run 40 to 1 instead of 50 to 1 that it will seize the piston because it leans out. WTF!


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## Chucksta (Tuesday at 4:08 PM)

What the Stihl Dealer said, isn't necessarily wrong, he just didn't explain it very well. 40 to 1 has less fuel per CC than 50 to 1. Right? 
If the motor is designed to run on 50 to 1, and, If you don't tweak the carb, when you change to 40 to 1, then yes, theoretically, it's be lean, with the extra lubricant not being useful. 
At 40 to 1, it's leaner, it's hotter combustion, but with more oil in the mix. What kind of oil? Wally World cheapest on the shelf? Premium Synthetic? A lot of variables. 
But yes, I could see where they'd say that 40 to 1 runs lean. 
IMHO, a Premium Synthetic is much more forgiving as to mix ratios.


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 4:29 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> I love Saber , however if you seriously believe that hype , I have some property for sale you may be interested in ? However , to be serious clean with 50% less oil may be accurate , however protection to bearings has nothing to do with cleanliness . As far as Stihl , if its Stihl Ultra vs Saber no comparison within efficiency of protection or being clean burning . Ultra has to be the dirtiest oil I have ever witnessed with a saw , that's including some castor's brother. !


I agree. I also wouldn't assume it's any cleaner as most of the deposits come from the gasoline itself. That and with less oil you have less detergents.


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 4:30 PM)

Chucksta said:


> What the Stihl Dealer said, isn't necessarily wrong, he just didn't explain it very well. 40 to 1 has less fuel per CC than 50 to 1. Right?
> If the motor is designed to run on 50 to 1, and, If you don't tweak the carb, when you change to 40 to 1, then yes, theoretically, it's be lean, with the extra lubricant not being useful.
> At 40 to 1, it's leaner, it's hotter combustion, but with more oil in the mix. What kind of oil? Wally World cheapest on the shelf? Premium Synthetic? A lot of variables.
> But yes, I could see where they'd say that 40 to 1 runs lean.
> IMHO, a Premium Synthetic is much more forgiving as to mix ratios.


But he implied it was a total no go no mention of jetting change.


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 4:30 PM)

Chucksta said:


> What the Stihl Dealer said, isn't necessarily wrong, he just didn't explain it very well. 40 to 1 has less fuel per CC than 50 to 1. Right?
> If the motor is designed to run on 50 to 1, and, If you don't tweak the carb, when you change to 40 to 1, then yes, theoretically, it's be lean, with the extra lubricant not being useful.
> At 40 to 1, it's leaner, it's hotter combustion, but with more oil in the mix. What kind of oil? Wally World cheapest on the shelf? Premium Synthetic? A lot of variables.
> But yes, I could see where they'd say that 40 to 1 runs lean.
> IMHO, a Premium Synthetic is much more forgiving as to mix ratios.


A simple 20 degree swing in temp has a greater effect on air to fuel ratio than a small change in oil ratio.


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 4:31 PM)

bwalker said:


> A simple 20 degree swing in temp has a greater effect on air to fuel ratio than a small change in oil ratio.


And then there is MTronics.


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 4:32 PM)

lone wolf said:


> And then there is MTronics.


Exactly.. although much maligned by saw guys the system is dead simple and of great benefit. The average guy can't tune a carb to save his life.


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 4:37 PM)

bwalker said:


> Exactly.. although much maligned by saw guys the system is dead simple and of great benefit. The average guy can't tune a carb to save his life.


I like it ,when its working right and it usually does. I remember when I was first learning to tune a carb it was like crazy. Of course it didn't help that the carb was bad! Who knew everything at the get go?


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 4:39 PM)

lone wolf said:


> I like it ,when its working right and it usually does. I remember when I was first learning to tune a carb it was like crazy. Of course it didn't help that the carb was bad! Who knew everything at the get go?


Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe the teaching problems seen in the early Mtronic saws have been worked out. My 400C has been flawless, but I don't out enough time on a saw now to really say for certain.
I would also point out that alot of the problems seem with early Mtronic and Autotune saws where actually heat related issues made worse by strato charging. MT and AT took the blame for that.


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 4:40 PM)

Chucksta said:


> What the Stihl Dealer said, isn't necessarily wrong, he just didn't explain it very well. 40 to 1 has less fuel per CC than 50 to 1. Right?
> If the motor is designed to run on 50 to 1, and, If you don't tweak the carb, when you change to 40 to 1, then yes, theoretically, it's be lean, with the extra lubricant not being useful.
> At 40 to 1, it's leaner, it's hotter combustion, but with more oil in the mix. What kind of oil? Wally World cheapest on the shelf? Premium Synthetic? A lot of variables.
> But yes, I could see where they'd say that 40 to 1 runs lean.
> IMHO, a Premium Synthetic is much more forgiving as to mix ratios.


It does cause a lean condition fuel wise , due to the oil replacing the fuel within the same state of tune . That's why you retune the saw to the additional oil within the ratio. Then its a win , win . More oil for the bottom end & additional fuel for cooling & combined , more ring sealing & potential power !


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 4:40 PM)

bwalker said:


> Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe the teaching problems seen in the early Mtronic saws have been worked out.


I have only had one Solenoid stop working right.


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 4:42 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> It does
> 
> Causes a lean condition fuel wise , due to the oil replacing the fuel within the same state of tune . That's why you retune the saw to the additional oil within the ratio. Then its a win , win . More oil for the bottom end & additional fuel for cooling & combined , more ring sealing & potential power !


And there's your dinner!


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 4:44 PM)

bwalker said:


> I agree. I also wouldn't assume it's any cleaner as most of the deposits come from the gasoline itself. That and with less oil you have less detergents.


In my applications its always been very clean Ben . But then I have tuned for yrs & use very little ethanol content if any when possible within my saws , when I must its treated with a premium fuel conditioner . P.S. your absolutely correct within ethanol fuel causing numerous deposit & corrosion issues within small engine usage . Combined with improper oil selection it can become catastrophic . I have seen enough spark arrestor issues within trimmers & blowers due basically from diarea fuel , then the same due to diarea oil which just compounds the issue , especially within low load & heat applications !


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 4:46 PM)

bwalker said:


> Exactly.. although much maligned by saw guys the system is dead simple and of great benefit. The average guy can't tune a carb to save his life.


The gremlins have pretty well been resolved from what I have heard , for the average Joe , pretty well full proof assurance that your saw will perform as expected within any environment !


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 4:48 PM)

bwalker said:


> A simple 20 degree swing in temp has a greater effect on air to fuel ratio than a small change in oil ratio.


Or a couple hundred feet of elevation !


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 4:52 PM)

lone wolf said:


> But he implied it was a total no go no mention of jetting change.


I have never required an actual jetting replacement , usually only a little fattening of the tune . Although on one year of Echo saw in the early part of this millinium , replacement jets were required since they were so lean from the factory . I can't recall geographically were the dude was from lol. To many moons ago , he finally gave up the ghost & brought it to the dealer .


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 4:56 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> It does
> 
> Causes a lean condition fuel wise , due to the oil replacing the fuel within the same state of tune . That's why you retune the saw to the additional oil within the ratio. Then its a win , win . More oil for the bottom end & additional fuel for cooling & combined , more ring sealing & potential power !


And you should be retuning daily anyways..


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 4:57 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> I have never required an actual jetting replacement , usually only a little fattening of the tune . Although on one year of Echo saw in the early part of this millinium , replacement jets were required since they were so lean from the factory . I can't recall geographically were the dude was from lol. To many moons ago , he finally gave up the ghost & brought it to the dealer .


Stihl 260 with the fixed jet carb was the same way.


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 5:06 PM)

bwalker said:


> And you should be retuning daily anyways..


Amen , & how many times in your life time have you seen that Ben . I bet you only need one hand to account for that brother !


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 5:09 PM)

bwalker said:


> Stihl 260 with the fixed jet carb was the same way.


Yep that's right


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 5:12 PM)

North by Northwest said:


> I have never required an actual jetting replacement , usually only a little fattening of the tune . Although on one year of Echo saw in the early part of this millinium , replacement jets were required since they were so lean from the factory . I can't recall geographically were the dude was from lol. To many moons ago , he finally gave up the ghost & brought it to the dealer .


I meant adjustment.


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## dave ensign (Tuesday at 5:43 PM)

On my first shot I hit 3 feet in front of the rabbit, on my second shot I hit 3 feet behind the rabbit. On average I eat rabbit. I'd rather run a little rich and send out for dinner.


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## lone wolf (Tuesday at 5:44 PM)

dave ensign said:


> On my first shot I hit 3 feet in front of the rabbit, on my second shot I hit 3 feet behind the rabbit. On average I eat rabbit. I'd rather run a little rich and send out for dinner.


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## North by Northwest (Tuesday at 6:53 PM)

lone wolf said:


> I meant adjustment.


I wasn't sure bud , but thought I would just mention the issue with fixed jet Echo's example in the early part of 2000 . They were already lean to the point of no return for a richer ratio . Then you go to an even leaner condition with more oil & not a pretty situation , that tuning could not resolve . Only a jet change out would cure . EPA restricted or compliant carbs burnt up many saws back in the early model years as did unknowledgible operators !


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## John Lyngdal (Tuesday at 9:11 PM)

Chucksta said:


> What the Stihl Dealer said, isn't necessarily wrong, he just didn't explain it very well. 40 to 1 has less fuel per CC than 50 to 1. Right?
> If the motor is designed to run on 50 to 1, and, If you don't tweak the carb, when you change to 40 to 1, then yes, theoretically, it's be lean, with the extra lubricant not being useful.
> At 40 to 1, it's leaner, it's hotter combustion, but with more oil in the mix. What kind of oil? Wally World cheapest on the shelf? Premium Synthetic? A lot of variables.
> But yes, I could see where they'd say that 40 to 1 runs lean.
> IMHO, a Premium Synthetic is much more forgiving as to mix ratios.


This would be correct if the oil was inert and not combusted, but the "Project Farm" video shows that some oils are at least partially combusted.
Straight octane has the formula of C8H10, for the sake of discussion let's say that the oil is C16H18. The densities of the two are approximately the same, but it would take twice as much oxygen to fully combust the C16H18 molecule as compared to a molecule of C8H10. If say the C16H18 was only 50% combusted, the effective O/F ratio would be the same as 100% combustion of C8H10.


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 9:22 PM)

dave ensign said:


> On my first shot I hit 3 feet in front of the rabbit, on my second shot I hit 3 feet behind the rabbit. On average I eat rabbit. I'd rather run a little rich and send out for dinner.


Id rather drill all of them, but that's me and because I can.


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 9:28 PM)

John Lyngdal said:


> This would be correct if the oil was inert and not combusted, but the "Project Farm" video shows that some oils are at least partially combusted.
> Straight octane has the formula of C8H10, for the sake of discussion let's say that the oil is C16H18. The densities of the two are approximately the same, but it would take twice as much oxygen to fully combust the C16H18 molecule as compared to a molecule of C8H10. If say the C16H18 was only 50% combusted, the effective O/F ratio would be the same as 100% combustion of C8H10.


All oils are combusted. To what degree, where and to what extent depends on load, tuning, oil formulation, etc.
You also have to consider that the only thing your carb tuning accounts for is how much vapor and air are present in the combustion chamber prior to the spark plug firing. Anything liquid detracts from the combustion event by absorbing heat to change its phase to a gas so it can combust. Two cycle oil, specifically is found coating parts such as the piston dome, cylinder walls etc. As such its flashed by the combustion event itself well after the plug fires. As such, and I am speaking in very general terms, it detracts from the amount of heat/power that drives the piston down. However, it does seal the rings better, which adds HP back. Again, this is in very general terms.


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## bwalker (Tuesday at 9:40 PM)

John Lyngdal said:


> Since this is an oil thread:
> 
> The relevant parts I want to point to in this video occur at the 4:50 and 6:00 minutes marks where an un-combusted gas detector is used and apply this to comments about higher oil content causing saws to run leaner. As this video points out, some 2 cycle oils combust less than others. The longer the hydrocarbon chain, the more oxygen it takes to fully combust it, but if it isn't fully combusted it will result in smoke and higher levels on un-combusted gas emissions and possibly a lean run condition. If the 2-cycle oil is combusted, it gets burned just like the primary fuel component which should mitigate the lean run situation. The true test would be to measure the un-combusted gas levels using a 40:1 mix and a 50:1 mix without adjusting the jets.



The wear test was complete joke and in no way mimics what happens in a two cycle engine it all.
Likewise the authors understanding of flashpoint is frankly ridiculous as is his misunderstanding of what ash is.
To top it off he "tests" the oils on a 4 cycle engine.
I stopped watching that stupid rubbish after that point and scrolled to the end tonhear his "conclusions".. Again, a complete joke, which is no supprise giving his test regime.
If I owned YouTube I would ban the guy.


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## Captain Bruce (Tuesday at 10:03 PM)

40 : 1. They either smoke or scream.


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## Chucksta (Thursday at 5:14 PM)

John Lyngdal said:


> This would be correct if the oil was inert and not combusted, but the "Project Farm" video shows that some oils are at least partially combusted.
> Straight octane has the formula of C8H10, for the sake of discussion let's say that the oil is C16H18. The densities of the two are approximately the same, but it would take twice as much oxygen to fully combust the C16H18 molecule as compared to a molecule of C8H10. If say the C16H18 was only 50% combusted, the effective O/F ratio would be the same as 100% combustion of C8H10.


Thank you for that insight!! I'm gonna have to check out the video.. Got a question for you, since you obviously know more about this than I do.. Are "old school" saws more forgiving on mix / type of oil / ratio than newer ones? Got a couple of older Stihl that don't seem to care what goes in the tank.. My newer stuff seems way more fussy. Just carbeuration?


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## Chucksta (Thursday at 5:25 PM)

bwalker said:


> A simple 20 degree swing in temp has a greater effect on air to fuel ratio than a small change in oil ratio.


LOL.. I used to run a lot of Nitro powered RC toys.. Yup!! had to re-tune when it got hotter in the afternoon. Hot air has a lot less density. Not sure if an RC carb is the same a saw carb.. RC carb? When you change the main jet, it effects the low jet.. Is that the same on a saw? Never seen that discussed??


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## huskihl (Thursday at 6:11 PM)

Chucksta said:


> LOL.. I used to run a lot of Nitro powered RC toys.. Yup!! had to re-tune when it got hotter in the afternoon. Hot air has a lot less density. Not sure if an RC carb is the same a saw carb.. RC carb? When you change the main jet, it effects the low jet.. Is that the same on a saw? Never seen that discussed??


It varies from saw to saw. Typically there’s 10-20% overlap. L screw affects about 10% of H. And vice versa


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## Chucksta (Thursday at 8:07 PM)

huskihl said:


> It varies from saw to saw. Typically there’s 10-20% overlap. L screw affects about 10% of H. And vice versa


Interesting.. In the RC nitro carbs, the best explanation I saw was that the main ( high) was like the main tap on a hose, and the low was like the nozzle. If you leaned out the main, you had to rich up the idle ( low) to compensate.


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## North by Northwest (Yesterday at 8:31 AM)

Chucksta said:


> LOL.. I used to run a lot of Nitro powered RC toys.. Yup!! had to re-tune when it got hotter in the afternoon. Hot air has a lot less density. Not sure if an RC carb is the same a saw carb.. RC carb? When you change the main jet, it effects the low jet.. Is that the same on a saw? Never seen that discussed??


Absolutely as to daily tuning & the cause an effect issue . I set my low speed to ensure crisp response , then tune the high speed within the cut to allow maximum rpm & back it off a quarter turn or so . The idle speed once warmed up to just before clutch engagement , this usually provides sufficient rpm for a cold idle start up !


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Yesterday at 12:30 PM)

Some FD rated oils I bet most will snob their noses to. But look on the new FD list it is there and still can be bought in 3.2oz. Also sold in the 2.6oz, but I wont stock that.
I stock these for guys that want 1 gal mix and I tune their saws with my 40:1 VP oil and efree mix when here anyway.


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## North by Northwest (Yesterday at 12:55 PM)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Some FD rated oils I bet most will snob their noses to. But look on the new FD list it is there and still can be bought in 3.2oz. Also sold in the 2.6oz, but I wont stock that.
> I stock these for guys that want 1 gal mix and I tune their saws with my 40:1 VP oil and efree mix when here anyway.
> View attachment 1048440


I actually bought some of their same labelled bar oil it was $12 a gallon at the time , fine product !


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## OM617YOTA (Yesterday at 1:25 PM)

If it's legit FD I'd run it, no matter what's on the outside of the bottle.

Any idea who actually makes that Poulan stuff?


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## bwalker (Yesterday at 1:38 PM)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Some FD rated oils I bet most will snob their noses to. But look on the new FD list it is there and still can be bought in 3.2oz. Also sold in the 2.6oz, but I wont stock that.
> 
> I stock these for guys that want 1 gal mix and I tune their saws with my 40:1 VP oil and efree mix when here anyway.
> 
> ...





RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Some FD rated oils I bet most will snob their noses to. But look on the new FD list it is there and still can be bought in 3.2oz. Also sold in the 2.6oz, but I wont stock that.
> I stock these for guys that want 1 gal mix and I tune their saws with my 40:1 VP oil and efree mix when here anyway.
> 
> View attachment 1048439
> ...


Any FD oil is great for chainsaw use. I'd rather run that stuff than Saber to be honest.


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## OM617YOTA (Yesterday at 1:42 PM)

Looks like it's Husqvarna oil.




Whole list here:



https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf


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## Ilmater (Yesterday at 4:11 PM)

bwalker said:


> Any FD oil is great for chainsaw use. I'd rather run that stuff than Saber to be honest.


Here's a thread from a guy who has tested 2 stroke oils for the Department of Defense in 2 stroke UAV engines. Note the thread title: https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57253 What do you think of the pics there. He says there is no way it was running rich either.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Yesterday at 5:35 PM)

OM617YOTA said:


> If it's legit FD I'd run it, no matter what's on the outside of the bottle.
> 
> Any idea who actually makes that Poulan stuff?


If legit.  #303 right on the certified list dated 1 Nov 2022. 

Should go see the oils and their ratings sometime if your worry about such things. 

Husky has it blended to specs for them by maker.


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## OM617YOTA (Yesterday at 5:55 PM)

@RedneckChainsawRepair 

Look up two posts, bud.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Yesterday at 6:24 PM)

OM617YOTA said:


> @RedneckChainsawRepair
> 
> Look up two posts, bud.


Replying to your post you tagged me in at 125pm, bud.


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## bwalker (Yesterday at 8:00 PM)

Ilmater said:


> Here's a thread from a guy who has tested 2 stroke oils for the Department of Defense in 2 stroke UAV engines. Note the thread title: https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57253 What do you think of the pics there. He says there is no way it was running rich either.


In the first place it's pretty apparent that those pics didn't come from a motor that was running rich. A rich mixture will typically wash the piston clean or partially clean. That motor was ran on the lean side and it shows a buildup of sulfated ash indicative of running a low ash type oil at constant rpm.
In the second, think of the operating conditions of a UAV. Constant throttle and high load from driving a prop along with decent cooling from high air flow. What's that like? A outboard motor.. As such that engine should have been ran on a ashless marine type oil. Anything that runs constant throttle and RPM really needs a ashless oil, of which Saber is not. It should be noted that 4 cycle piston engine aviation engines run ashless oil for this reason.
So, while I am no fan of Scamsoil, 100:1 ratios or Saber in particular you can hardly blame the oil for these results.


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## OM617YOTA (Yesterday at 8:17 PM)

RedneckChainsawRepair said:


> Replying to your post you tagged me in at 125pm, bud.



Look at post 606 in this thread.


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## benelli7d (Today at 11:31 AM)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Yeah he does, so does trains! Burns so cleanly, but they both work their equipment harddddd.
> 
> Funnily enough I forgot to mention, I was on the search for the 2 stroke oil smell that was so reminiscent of my dirtbike days (2008 onwards). It’s Amsoil Saber. So far it’s the only oil I can run at 32:1 that produces hardly any smoke, doesn’t give me a headache and smells absolutely amazing. It’s literally the smell of pure joy LOL


I'm an old motocrosser from the 60's and 70's and I flat love the smell of good old Castrol R! Bean oil was all I'd ever run in my Maico's and CZ's. Just thinking of it now makes me long for a whiff!


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## John Lyngdal (Today at 1:51 PM)

I thought the linked conversation had several valuable data points and confirmed that oil discussion in RC groups is as spirited as they are here.
I'm still going to continue using Sabre at 40:1 mixed with ethanol-free 93 octane as it's worked well for me, but I wouldn't shy away from trying something different.


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## John Lyngdal (Today at 1:53 PM)

At the PNW GTG Bob often pulls out a saw fueled with Castor oil mix, and it does bring back memories.


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## Chevboy0167 (Today at 1:56 PM)

I really liked the smell of Redline synthetic in my KT100 cart years ago....


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## bwalker (Today at 7:55 PM)

benelli7d said:


> I'm an old motocrosser from the 60's and 70's and I flat love the smell of good old Castrol R! Bean oil was all I'd ever run in my Maico's and CZ's. Just thinking of it now makes me long for a whiff





benelli7d said:


> I'm an old motocrosser from the 60's and 70's and I flat love the smell of good old Castrol R! Bean oil was all I'd ever run in my Maico's and CZ's. Just thinking of it now makes me long for a whiff!


Klotz Super Techniplate IMO smells better than any other oil!


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## North by Northwest (Today at 8:34 PM)

bwalker said:


> Klotz Super Techniplate IMO smells better than any other oil!


Benol smells equally as good , case a Labatt's ?


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