# Almost lost my 660



## 2dogs (Jun 28, 2009)

Here is the readers digest version. I was cutting a head leaning tanoak and it sat down on the bar when I made my gunning cut. I unscrewed the powerhead and the tree fell on its own.
















Ok now here is the long version. I went into this area to fall 2 marked trees, this tanoak and a big leaf maple. I could not find the maple and I had planned to cut it first. The tanoak is fairly large and needed my full concentration. I was distracted because I couldn't find the maple and I just did not have my head in the game. The 660 has a 36" bar on it so you can see the tanoak is about 32" in the narrow (leanng) dimension and about 40" in the long dimension. I started the gunning cut without walking around the tree and inspecting it. The gunning cut was made right through the only solid wood and the tree sat down hard on the bar and started popping loudly! I ran back to the truck and grabbed a scrench and another saw, then grabbed my camera. I snapped the first 2 pics in 15 seconds and made a dash for the saw. Fortunately I was just doing my final aiming on the gunning cut so the saw was not dogged in deep! I unscrewed the powerhead and pulled it out. The tree came down on its own with 25-30 seconds. You can see the imprint of the bar on the stump in the last image. An 8" section of the bar is pinched closed and will need repair.

The funny thing is that I have been waiting for an Oregon LW bar from Bailey's. It was on back order or I would have used it here. It was waiting for me when I got home. The maple was on the road on the way in, I drove right next to it. The tanoak fell 30' of the lay but was OK, just a little harder to clean up. I took out two 18" dbh trees when it fell and left a nice tree fall gap.

Here is a pic of a newly marked take tree. My wife has a very sore back so this is not a pic of her best smile. My daughter has chicken poxand did not want her pic taken at all.


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## WidowMaker (Jun 28, 2009)

Boy, thems two ugly trees and two good looking women...glad everything work out ok...Nice dog too


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## Greystoke (Jun 28, 2009)

*Whew!*



WidowMaker said:


> Boy, thems two ugly trees and two good looking women...glad everything work out ok...Nice dog too



:agree2: 
Man, that was lucky! I wish I had a nickel for every time I had to take off my powerhead...Thank god for the sprocket being on the outside of the clutch, as I remember having to chop a few chains before. Unfortunately there were a few times when I was not fast enough to get it before the tree fell, although I never completely destroyed one. I usually held on to the starter cord to the bitter end.


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## huskystihl (Jun 28, 2009)

Lost a couple my self that way, saved quite a few as well. That was a pretty hard lean.


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## Cletuspsc (Jun 28, 2009)

I had a poplar a few weeks back do the same thing but I had to let the saw go for a little ride, started to go as soon as i pulled out the scrench. . . .. got lucky though and it dident get buggered up. . . . I hate that wet rottin wood.


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## Greystoke (Jun 28, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Here is the readers digest version. I was cutting a head leaning tanoak and it sat down on the bar when I made my gunning cut. I unscrewed the powerhead and the tree fell on its own.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oooh! I would have been temted to fall that big redwood right behind:drool:. Is that a double? Was this in a park, where you go to prison forever for falling a big double? Where were these pics taken in CA? Maybe we chewed some of the same ground?


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## 2dogs (Jun 28, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> Oooh! I would have been temted to fall that big redwood right behind:drool:. Is that a double? Was this in a park, where you go to prison forever for falling a big double? Where were these pics taken in CA? Maybe we chewed some of the same ground?



These redwoods are off Palo Colorado Canyon Rd in southern Monterey County. This grove is near the end of the range. It is 95% old growth and yes the permit process is lengthy. It is in a Boy Scout camp that burned during June and July of 2008 during the Basin Complex. There are about 40 redwoods that present a seroius life threatening situation should they fall. I have taken down quite a few trees and many, many snags so far. I have heard and seen two large redwoods fall on their own this year. Very impressive! The tallest I have cut down so far measured out to 194' tall and the largest (goose pen) has been 9 1/2' dbh.

Unfortunately most of the trees have heart rot so the trees splinter when they hit the ground. We are still going to try to mill what we can. Old growth still has great value, esp in big cants. With all the species I rarely cut down a tree less than 3' dbh.


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 28, 2009)

Nice, let that be a lesson for everybody falling trees. Sometimes you get in a hurry and get pinched.


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## 2dogs (Jun 28, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> Nice, let that be a lesson for everybody falling trees. Sometimes you get in a hurry and get pinched.



I was not in a hurry, I had my head where the sun don't shine. It was a stupid, preventable mistake that will end up costing me money. I need a swift kick in the behind.


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## Greystoke (Jun 29, 2009)

2dogs said:


> These redwoods are off Palo Colorado Canyon Rd in southern Monterey County. This grove is near the end of the range. It is 95% old growth and yes the permit process is lengthy. It is in a Boy Scout camp that burned during June and July of 2008 during the Basin Complex. There are about 40 redwoods that present a seroius life threatening situation should they fall. I have taken down quite a few trees and many, many snags so far. I have heard and seen two large redwoods fall on their own this year. Very impressive! The tallest I have cut down so far measured out to 194' tall and the largest (goose pen) has been 9 1/2' dbh.
> 
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately most of the trees have heart rot so the trees splinter when they hit the ground. We are still going to try to mill what we can. Old growth still has great value, esp in big cants. With all the species I rarely cut down a tree less than 3' dbh.



Dang Redwood are just brittle! :bang: Hardest trees I have ever cut when it comes to saving them out. Sounds like you have a sweet job!


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 29, 2009)

Gunning cut?

Sorry, don't get the lingo, mate.

To me it looks like you were gonna do what I'd have called a sneaky. Front cut, back cut, bang, over she goes. ??

No scarf?

That was an easy lesson dude.


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## bullbuck (Jun 29, 2009)

your "sneaky cut"is what i would refer to as a "match cut"here,makes no difference i just like hearing all the different lingos...


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## bullbuck (Jun 29, 2009)

wow nailsbeats is that you out on that limb?


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 29, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> wow nailsbeats is that you out on that limb?



Yeah, workin it, lol.


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 29, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Gunning cut?
> 
> Sorry, don't get the lingo, mate.
> 
> ...



The bottom cut on the notch when done first is referred to as a gunning cut by some.


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## bullbuck (Jun 29, 2009)

thats wild,oh ok,i was thinking it was the third felling cut for some reason,gunning the throttle to remove as much wood as possible?but i have never heard that term used before,interesting...


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 30, 2009)

Why would you do the bottom cut of your scarf first?


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 30, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Why would you do the bottom cut of your scarf first?



I should clarify: when I said "bottom cut" I was thinking of a traditional notch. On a Humboldt it would be the top cut, the "gunning cut". 

Whether cutting a Traditional or Humbolt notch, the flat cut or angled cut can be made first depending on the situation or preference. Either one can also be "gunned".


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## bullbuck (Jun 30, 2009)

thats interesting,around here we call a top notch a conventional rather than a traditional,makes no difference i just find it interesting


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## GASoline71 (Jun 30, 2009)

2dogs said:


> I was not in a hurry, I had my head where the sun don't shine. It was a stupid, preventable mistake that will end up costing me money. *I need a swift kick in the behind*.



Just ask Evan how that feels... 

Gary


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## 2dogs (Jul 1, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> thats interesting,around here we call a top notch a conventional rather than a traditional,makes no difference i just find it interesting



The first cut I make is the horizontal cut that aims the tree to the lay. I call it a gunning cut most times. With a dead or rotten tree of no value I follow that by the angled cut from the top down. Now I have a notch. As you can see I make the notch high on the stump so I can stand up watch the top of the tree for falling branches, bark, etc. Once the tree is on the ground I go back and break the stump down. Some rotten trees, and heavy leaners, get a more open notch and a boring cut that leaves a strip of holding wood which I cut below the backcut to drop the tree.

Trees of value get a Humboldt.


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## GASoline71 (Jul 1, 2009)

2dogs said:


> The first cut I make is the horizontal cut that aims the tree to the lay. I call it a gunning cut most times. With a dead or rotten tree of no value I follow that by the angled cut from the top down. Now I have a notch. As you can see I make the notch high on the stump so I can stand up watch the top of the tree for falling branches, bark, etc. Once the tree is on the ground I go back and break the stump down. Some rotten trees, and heavy leaners, get a more open notch and a boring cut that leaves a strip of holding wood which I cut below the backcut to drop the tree.
> 
> Trees of value get a Humboldt.



My way too...  Is there any other way to do it?

Gary


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## 2dogs (Jul 1, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> My way too...  Is there any other way to do it?
> 
> Gary



Yeah...GOL/bore everything!:greenchainsaw:

(Kinda hard to bore a 60" tree though, eh?)


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## RandyMac (Jul 2, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> My way too...  Is there any other way to do it?
> 
> Gary



I agree with you-all. 
Rotten does as rotten is, Tanoaks can be exciting










Anyone who has done anything, has gotten caught in the undercut, that includes me.


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## 056 kid (Jul 2, 2009)

Why does it look like you where sawing completely under the lean of that oak 2dogs?

looks like alittle more than a kirf closing on a bar.


Good thing it did not get you or your saw.




The old saw wrench has saved me before!



I read the extended cut and darn man! thats some shotty work to be critisizing me like you where...


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## RandyMac (Jul 2, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Why does it look like you where sawing completely under the lean of that oak 2dogs?
> 
> looks like alittle more than a kirf closing on a bar.
> 
> ...



Come back when you have earned your spurs.


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## GASoline71 (Jul 2, 2009)

Exactly...

Gary


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## 056 kid (Jul 2, 2009)

tell me what it means?


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## GASoline71 (Jul 2, 2009)

$TFU and go away...

basically.

Gary


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## 056 kid (Jul 2, 2009)

comeback when i shut up and go away?

haha, a paradox.


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## sILlogger (Jul 2, 2009)

i think they are saying don't open your mouth until you know what your talking about. 

or shut the ##### up until you have a clue.

clear as mud?:greenchainsaw:


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## 056 kid (Jul 2, 2009)

Ya they think i am an imbecile.


i have no interests in proving myself either.


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## GASoline71 (Jul 3, 2009)

LMAO... then stop posting... 

Gary


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## Gologit (Jul 3, 2009)

Sounds like kinda like the conversations you hear at lunch time, or in the crummy. The kids with the least experience always have the most to say.

They usually learn when to shut up, though. Most of them, anyway.


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## 056 kid (Jul 3, 2009)

Some of you guys dont have much respect for a guy that works hard in the woods.

and some of you are nice people, but


none of you have ever met me so why do you know how experienced i am?



Instead of being ass holes you all could share your vast wealth of knowledge and experience.

I ask why the tree is hanging over the powerhead of a licensed pro faller or whatever and all I get is a bunch of ####.

Gary, you cant even work anymore cause your too ####ed up.. Does that make you a master of the trade, or a failure of the trade? Or are you the #### cause you are a pnw logger?


####ing big headed #######s, If im that inexperienced, let a big piece of wood strike me dead on monday then you all can be right..


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## 2dogs (Jul 3, 2009)

RandyMac said:


> I agree with you-all.
> Rotten does as rotten is, Tanoaks can be exciting
> 
> 
> ...



Randy was that first pic taken as the tree was falling? Ya sure can't waste any time once that gunning cut is started on a tanoak with any signs of stress. Saw fast, small face, fast back cut. Good solid leaners get a bore cut. I had another one try to set down on the bar yesterday. I was able to wedge it open enough for my helper to pull the saw while I pounded on the nose of the bar with the axe handle.

We have been running a brand new Vermeer BC1500 all day cleaning up the tanoaks I've dropped over the last 2 weeks. I really hate chipping.


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## bullbuck (Jul 3, 2009)

i have had that scenario play out on me before more than once,one in particular was a 20"pondo pine it was dead but it still had all the red needles and there was to me no sign of rot at the stump,so i proceeded to dump it the way it was headed maybe a little sideling,had about enough time to think to myself damn this thing is cutting good,then two thirds of the rootwad pulled from the ground and took my saw with it,couldnt believe my saw was unharmed...


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## forestryworks (Jul 3, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Why does it look like you where sawing completely under the lean of that oak 2dogs?



how do you know what's in the top?


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## RandyMac (Jul 4, 2009)

2-Dogs!!! my nieghbor to the south.
Yes, it was going down, snapped it myself, and I was 50 feet away before it came off the stump. That was a two for one tree, the Tanbark had a Madrone leaning on it, it broke off at the ground, it's rootwad is resting on the Tanbark stump.






I just love falling the ugly stuff, tons more fun than plain old round, straight timber.


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## GASoline71 (Jul 4, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Some of you guys dont have much respect for a guy that works hard in the woods.
> 
> and some of you are nice people, but
> 
> ...



Hey punk... nobody ever said you don't work hard. I'm sure you work your a$$ off everyday. That's a good start to a great work ethic. But you gotta give respect to get it...

Your blatant BS posts make me wanna puke sometimes. Yes my back is f'd up... No I can't pack a saw all day in the woods...but... you haven't got the balls to even pack my lunch for me.

You wanna be a part of somethin' and give advice when it is needed... then listen (read) what others are sayin'. You're young... full of pi$$ and vinegar. You think I wasn't a snot nosed loudmouth punk like you once? LMAO... you are me when I was young. I knew it all, had all the answers, none of the old farts that I worked with were gonna tell me what to do... I already knew what to do. Don't tell me my cuts suck... I'll knock you on your a$$... whatever old man... I know how to set a choke, gun the lay, rig the mountain... go F yourself...

I was humbled early on... very early on... watched a guy get crushed on a turn I was supposed to be workin'. But since I was a loudmouth pr1ck that knew better, and thought how they were workin' the turn was stupid... I was up on the landin' buckin' BS snags that were bein' yarded out to make way for a new line... A guy got killed doin' a job I was supposed to be doin'. Makes me feel great.. everday of my life... 

Give the respect you want, and you will get it... until then... shut your pie hole.

Gary


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## sILlogger (Jul 4, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Hey punk... nobody ever said you don't work hard. I'm sure you work your a$$ off everyday. That's a good start to a great work ethic. But you gotta give respect to get it...
> 
> Your blatant BS posts make me wanna puke sometimes. Yes my back is f'd up... No I can't pack a saw all day in the woods...but... you haven't got the balls to even pack my lunch for me.
> 
> ...



Truer words of wisdom could not have been spoken


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## hammerlogging (Jul 5, 2009)

Bein that I come from HW country, and open face country, some of the things in this thread are more familiar on this side of the MS. I've only had one tree rotten enough to collapse on my first cut, the down cut of the face. I have had more than one sit down on the bar when boring- not too many, but it can happen. Basswood is really bad about it, you have ot be sawing/plunging in and out the whole time you're boring to keep wallowing out the bore- like you can do with a 660 when downcutting, bucking logs under downward pressure so you don't have to undercut. They often grow 3 stems from the same base. Take the typical 20-24" dbh baswood clump, all three stems will be leaning heavy crown 20' plus out from the stump and any one of them will be prone to siting on your bore. Why bore? Cause they're each leaning 20' plus out from their stump so ain't kno way a back cut can keep up with their fall without a barberchair.

One tree like that pictured by 2dogs, I'd be looking for a segment of trunk where there is more solid wood than other parts, decipher in that where I can find hingewood and cut accordingly.

When hung during a bore on a heavy leaner, radio over to another cutter, usually cut below or above the bore cut from the back until the cuts bypass and the person whose saw is hung will pull it out as the tree breaks free. The one time I got hung on a face cut I had my cutting partner cut a new face in a better part of the stem and we just started the whole felling procedure over. The danger there is tree collapse as the pressure is distributed between the original cutting and the new cutting and instead of the tree being guided by the hinge it breaks vertically between the original ctting and the new cutting and breaks off in a rather uncontroled manner.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 5, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Bein that I come from HW country, and open face country, some of the things in this thread are more familiar on this side of the MS. I've only had one tree rotten enough to collapse on my first cut, the down cut of the face. I have had more than one sit down on the bar when boring- not too many, but it can happen. Basswood is really bad about it, you have ot be sawing/plunging in and out the whole time you're boring to keep wallowing out the bore- like you can do with a 660 when downcutting, bucking logs under downward pressure so you don't have to undercut. They often grow 3 stems from the same base. Take the typical 20-24" dbh baswood clump, all three stems will be leaning heavy crown 20' plus out from the stump and any one of them will be prone to siting on your bore. Why bore? Cause they're each leaning 20' plus out from their stump so ain't kno way a back cut can keep up with their fall without a barberchair.
> 
> One tree like that pictured by 2dogs, I'd be looking for a segment of trunk where there is more solid wood than other parts, decipher in that where I can find hingewood and cut accordingly.
> 
> When hung during a bore on a heavy leaner, radio over to another cutter, usually cut below or above the bore cut from the back until the cuts bypass and the person whose saw is hung will pull it out as the tree breaks free. The one time I got hung on a face cut I had my cutting partner cut a new face in a better part of the stem and we just started the whole felling procedure over. The danger there is tree collapse as the pressure is distributed between the original cutting and the new cutting and instead of the tree being guided by the hinge it breaks vertically between the original ctting and the new cutting and breaks off in a rather uncontroled manner.



Yup, the second notch trick can be tricky under preasure. Not something you want to bank on controlling. Like you said, the end grain split between the notches will get you every time.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 5, 2009)

RandyMac said:


> I just love falling the ugly stuff, tons more fun than plain old round, straight timber.
> QUOTE]
> 
> NOW YOU'RE TALKIN'. Get that heart beat going, eh?
> ...


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Hey punk... nobody ever said you don't work hard. I'm sure you work your a$$ off everyday. That's a good start to a great work ethic. But you gotta give respect to get it...
> 
> Your blatant BS posts make me wanna puke sometimes. Yes my back is f'd up... No I can't pack a saw all day in the woods...but... you haven't got the balls to even pack my lunch for me.
> 
> ...



Tin hats off to such an excellent and meaningful post. nice Gary


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## fonzie (Jul 21, 2009)

Speaking from experience as this has happened to me a on a few occassions, I would have put a smaller front ( open face as I am from down under dont use humblodt very often) in the tree the same direction as the natural lean, (it looks like you have put in a rather large front from the photo for this size tree with a considerable lean) this does create tension on your holding wood but as a general rule if you (as the operator this wont work for everyone) start what I call a 1/4 cut method by which you start at the side of you tree cutting right back to you desired hingewood depth i.e 4 inches or 100mm for us aussies, whilst doing this insuring you leave a a strap at the back about 6 inches or 150mm wide with depth ranging from 2 inches/50mm upto 6inches/150mm depending on the severity of the lean of the tree an experienced faller will pick how much with out to much drama, do the same on the opposite side of the tree/stump making sure you leave the "strap" once these 1/4's have been sawn out you are left with an open face/front, two corners taken out and a strap, the strap is the only thing holding the tree so cutting into it hard and fast isnt the answer!! place the bar against the stump about 1-2 inches 25-50mm below your 1/4 cut height then throttle the saw allowing it cut slowly into the strap, once the lean of the tree comes into play the strap will pull or let go a secondary lot of hinge wood and fall as per normal leaving ( I wish I could draw it on a piece of paper for you all) only a stump without a bar and chain tangled up in it!!
We call this method a "Trigger" cut (you guys have most likely heard of it and I just wasted my time typing but anyways) and the other method I refered to is the 1/4 cut method which is commom here minus the strap cut because thats generally used with lean to stop the tree capping and knocking your head off or giving the tree a kick off the sttump into a breeze or a slight lean,
hope this makes sense.
cheers
fonz


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## Hddnis (Jul 21, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Hey punk... nobody ever said you don't work hard. I'm sure you work your a$$ off everyday. That's a good start to a great work ethic. But you gotta give respect to get it...
> 
> Your blatant BS posts make me wanna puke sometimes. Yes my back is f'd up... No I can't pack a saw all day in the woods...but... you haven't got the balls to even pack my lunch for me.
> 
> ...





Good post, sir,


Mr. HE


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## tramp bushler (Jul 22, 2009)

*Stuff happens / staying focused*

The saying ( you can,t out cut your brain ) ....Is totally true .
.
. . 
. Sometimes it really pays to put the saw down and take a walk and look things over ... Especially when something just don,t (FEEL RIGHT) ... My life has been saved a number of times by lookin , lookin . lookin . . But tomorrow is another day , have to do all the right things , every day ... . ..... 
.
. Since I,m from Alaska ,, What is a TANOAK .. ??????????????????????
.
. They look like a pretty sorry species of tree ... .. What is all this Notches everyone is talking about . 
. Sighting the first of the ( face cuts) is using the sights on the saw , or on big timber ,2 tapes work alot better . each plugged in at the edge ofthe face side of the holding wood .. run them out to exactly the same length , hold that measurement under your thumb and your thumb is like the front sight of a pistol ................ Those burned cats faced cedars will be a serious challenge to get down where they need to go ....Do you ever have to climb and rig them for pulling , or with pendelum lines ???? 
... Is that a 075 or an 051 ... ???????????????


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## bullbuck (Jul 22, 2009)

hey that two tapes trick is a good idea!i had never heard of that im gonna try that one out...


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## tramp bushler (Jul 22, 2009)

*2 Tapes*

In Southeast , sometimes there isn,t anywhere to stand , so you have to use the sights on the saw ..... And for most trees the sights are suficent ... But if you can the 2 tapes really help ...
Heavy lean , limbed heavy to one side ,wind , and trees you need to rub past can screw things up , the limbs and lean can usually be solved ... If a tree has 10 ft of side lean I gun 10 ft the other way at the tree height distance ... If theres a stump ,or rock half way you need to account for it ..... the Long bars , which I hate packin around . are sure nice when falling the big ones . and even if your stumps are 40" or so a 36" bar helps you to hit your lays better than a 30 or 32 ...... If I,m in general run Chichagof Is . timber I use a 30 or 32 " bar


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2009)

I have never used two tapes but I have used one by making a loop out towards the lay with someone's finger. One end of the tape held at the corner by the nail and the end near the case is held at the other corner by my outstretched hand. I can then sight at the finger. It isn't as easy as gunning sticks but then again I have never owned gunning sticks, just used them a time or two. I really should spend 15 minutes and make a pair.

It sure is nice to have a day off midweek. I've been in the shop sharpening chains.


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## bullbuck (Jul 22, 2009)

generally out in the woods the powerhead sights work just fine for me,our stuff is generally not that tall 3 33's is about max maybe four but the old timers hauled off most of those,what that would be good for is i occasionally do a little "outlaw"tree removal on the side around houses power lines etc.and often there is only one place the tree can go and powerhead sights are a little vague for that,when i used to run huskys if i had not squished the saw i was more confident aiming with the handlebar,but my stihls i like the sights better,everyones got their own angle on the dangle...


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## RandyMac (Jul 22, 2009)

Tanoak or Tanbark (Lithocarpus densiflorus) is a weed tree, what the Alder is to the coast, the Tanoak is to the mountains. They are slightly more usefull than Alders.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 23, 2009)

*Thanks for the info .*



RandyMac said:


> Tanoak or Tanbark (Lithocarpus densiflorus) is a weed tree, what the Alder is to the coast, the Tanoak is to the mountains. They are slightly more usefull than Alders.



.. I was right they are kind of a sorry tree ... Thanks .......


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 23, 2009)

I must say that I've never heard of tanoak, how does it rate for density and strength?


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