# Nice little knot



## NickfromWI (Feb 10, 2005)

Anyone know the name of this little doozie?

love
nick


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## NickfromWI (Feb 10, 2005)

nevemind, I was trying to attach a video, but it's 2.56mb and the attachment limit is 2mb. Let me see if I can scale it down some how.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 10, 2005)

Okay, I think we got the video to work, all credit give to the TreeMachine!

You can see the pics at another site, if you'd like.


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## Stumper (Feb 11, 2005)

I like. Has it been tested? Just looking at it it would seem admirably strong.


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## Al Smith (Feb 11, 2005)

Basicaly it's a girth hitch,in the bight.


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## Crofter (Feb 11, 2005)

Very slick. It has to be much stronger than just the first stage catspaw.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 11, 2005)

*Nick's new hitch*

Today I used Nick from Wisconsin's example of girth hitching a ring with webbing. I used 3/8" Yalex instead of webbing, and put a biner on the other end. Here's a 1.7 meg slideshow of the process beinning to end. What a cool hitch !

This is going to be my main redirect sling, I determined that after using it today.

So has this hitch been around, or is Nick the Mommie ?

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment_20906.php


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## NickfromWI (Aug 27, 2005)

I found out it is called the Bull hitch. Much like the cow hitch, but more stubborn.

love
nick


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 27, 2005)

i think the Cow and Clove have a simple grace of their own. Especially a Clove as a crossed turn in the first stage, then finishes with the exact same pattern only loaded different to make a hitch. For a crossed turn pulled back wards is a hitch.

The first turn in a Clove is a crossed turn because the working/bitter end lays across the standing part, but in the second turn, the standing part seats on/pinches the working/bitter end to secure. A crossed turn with bitter atop standing will slip fairly freely, but as the pull is reversed to make a hitch from crossed turn, the standing part can seize down on top of the bitter/working end to secure. So a crossed turn (or backhand hitch of cow) is made to reduce force, then the completing hitch to secure by forcing the reduced pull to function to stand on it's own bootstrap, so it can't go nowheres.

Summarily, a Cow, is a Backhand/Muenter Hitch in it's first turn (to reduce forces through friction), then the second turn/trap is a hitch proper with the standing part atop/pinching/bearing down on the bitters/working end to secure/not slip(ideally). i think a clove can be pulled in less directions securely than a Cow, a Cow only having one weak direction, backyards away from it's Muenter's bight.

Dr. Nick; how do ya think that Bull would do replacing a Cow for mounting (getting Kinky...) a Porty, pulley etc. to suitable anchor etc.?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 27, 2005)

I will let Dr Nick address that, and add my opinion. It would work great if you had no intent of untying it. Once loaded, very, very secure. Does not loosen up or move or shift. Just a great hitch if you want permanence, but it can be coerced to loosen up with some bending and working, you can get it undone

The sling from the previous video I've been using since last Winter. It's been my favorite redirect sling, _ever_.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 27, 2005)

What is the advantage over a girth hitch, if it's bigger, slower to tie, hard to untied, and probably weaker breaking strength do to bends?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 27, 2005)

Fair point; lots of conditions to change forces as they run through the same pattern and special needs. This might be good in mending tool with throwline, where it might have better chance of slipping away from Cow etc.


Security in small slippery cord, or other (wet/ boating?) conditions needing more of the security 'value' . 

Change in breaking strength do to more bends would depend on if the extra bends were placed in a more forward /harsher loading position becasue of a small host/mount compared to size/stiffness of line i think. On a larger mount, the position of weakness from torquing the force thru the extra turns would be buffered by friction, so the bend around the mount recieving the more direct force of pull would determine the remaining % strength, not the less loaded bends of the extra turns i think. Unless, at the nose mebbe we have no teepee/ the 'sling' lays flat/leveraged in choke bending both flat against mount more; then at that angle the extra bends might get loaded more from leverageing line more perpendicular to it's initial pull(from overhead support etc.).


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## Tree Machine (Aug 27, 2005)

Mike Maas said:


> What is the advantage over a girth hitch?


A girth hitch on a biner will do this:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 27, 2005)

Mike makes the point of weakening of the hitch due to the bends in the rope. I think that would be an actual issue if you were doing heavy rigging. The would exist the possibility of failure due to the forces overcoming the strength of the hitch at those bends. This may be at severel thousand pounds at which point caribiners could be subject to failure also.

If we just talk about it in practical terms of using it for a redirect, and hanging little more than your body weight on it (or rigging down a limb that equals your weight), I just see that a 6,000 lb tenex is going to stand up to that OK.

I don't recommend tying this bull hitch to a limb to rig it down, no way, because you set the bull hitch where you want something to STAY. But to rig a 10 mm around some hardware, it is just a killer hitch. The pic below of cow hitch vs bull hitch on a ring, there on that piece of hardware, there's no clear advantage whatsoever. On the biner, a very clear advantage.

Mike mentions it being a bulkier hitch.


> What is the advantage over a girth hitch, if it's bigger....?


Bigger.... measurably, yea, but not in a way that translates to being even noticable, practically speaking. It stays put, that's an advantage. Coolness factor, fer sher. Basically, another hitch to add to your repertoire of knowledge.


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## darkstar (Aug 27, 2005)

who can tie the beer knot ? no cheating and looking in any books ??????


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## Tree Machine (Aug 27, 2005)

> who can tie the beer knot ? no cheating and looking in any books ??????


 In tube webbing. And it would be capitalized, "Beer", since it's named after a dude named Beer. That would be, 'Mr. Beer' to you.

I've got that one shown on video, using the chopstick method. Got that one in stills also.

You might be askin, "Hey Tree Machine, hWhy? would you have the tying of a knot, captured in both still photography and in video?"

And I might answer. "Well-a-b'cause, my friend, it one of the more then 3 knots that I regularly use." Cow hitch / bull hitch is one, and either the Beer knot or the water knot for tying webbing slings and rigging ascenders. And then choker, but that's not really a knot when used with eyed terminations and a biner. Ok, just two knots, and variations of those. Actually one _hitch_ with variations on it that I might use with rope or line, and the one knot I use only for webbing. I rarely, rarely need anything beyond those.


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## darkstar (Aug 27, 2005)

TREEMACHINE grandious .... you are certainly correct ...i rarely find nyaone who can tie a BEER knot .... so fess up arborist do most of you all know this wonderful knot...? and tree machine ...tell the boys how much the strength is increased by using the BEER instead of the water hmmmmm? knot..dark


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## Tree Machine (Aug 27, 2005)

I don't know the strength increase, but it's a cool knot to tie and bombproof. Used for tying the two ends of a length of webbing together to make a loop (sling).


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## darkstar (Aug 27, 2005)

the BEER knot is IMO the cutting edge of ingenuity ... how did he ever come up with that ...... check into it ... strength of near 40 % dark


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 27, 2005)

It does sinch down and stay tight.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 27, 2005)

I use the bull hitch for the 1.75 and 2.2 mm ZingIt line.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 27, 2005)

Freeking zing it is so thin, the girth hitch is hard to un-tie!


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

It depends what you're tying to. If you're tying to your bag, then you would have to untie it to tie it to the rope, and then untie from the rope to tie back on to the bag, UGgggghhhh. 

If you tie to something outlandishly wild and zany, say, a small biner, then you would never have to untie anything ever again. If you're using eyed terminations in your ropes, then a mini aluminum biner makes perfect sense (clips on to shot bag, clips on to rope) and you're free of this repetitive tying / untying task.

I have a question. As far as ZingIt goes, I've historically tied a modified version of a cow hitch, but I don't know what the hitch is called. Here are the pictures, the first of the Cow hitch, the second, what I've used up until I learned the bull hitch. 

For a million dollars, what's the name of hitch #2 ?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

So if you took that cow hitch, instead of twice over, or three times over, let's, just for fun, go 4 times over and see what it looks like, and does THIS hitch have a name?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

I tie it
I try it
I like it big 
we got the 4 rap cow and she's cool, dig?

I tie on
A biner
it ain't no toy
We got the 4-rappin cow so my bag deploy

We rap one time
two time
three time, four
This funky rappin cow hitch'z a cow and more

This is 
the end of my rappin beat
we got four times around 
it's excessive meat

It's too much
I know that
I'm wonderin how
I got rappin with my brothers 'bout this funky cow


Before you start telling me I've got too much time on my hands, look at this hitch, imagine the same hitch wraped around rope. What is it? Look closely.... :Eye:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

Good Spy, TreeCo. You get the million dollars. I think most people think of a Prusik as a rope-on-rope thing.

By the way, Prusik would be capitalized because it's named after and Austrian dude named Carl Prusik. That would be Mr. Prusik to you.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 28, 2005)

Actually, it's not a Prusik because only one lead it connected. It's a Tautline hitch.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 28, 2005)

Yeah, that's right. Isn't there another name for the tautline when it changes direction, other than an open Prusik?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

That's a good question. Just as there's a few variations on the bowline, there's a few variations on the cow hitch. Here's a straight cow, but it's only called a cow hitch because it has a standing end and a working end. If this exact same configuration was done using a loop runner (sling) it would be called a 'choker', or girth hitch.

Here's the simple cow hitch.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

Here is what I've been calling a triple cow, which has been renamed (correctly)asymmetric Prusik. I've used this one for years up until Nick showed us the bull hitch.

Here's the triple cow, aka cow hitch with an extra turn, aka asymmetric Prusik, aka girth and a half.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

Then if you take half a cow, wrap the working end around the standing end one full turn, finish the cow and drop the standing end through the loop you just created, this would be a .... bull hitch?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 28, 2005)

And if you did TWO full loops around the standing end you would have.... I dunno, a double bull hitch?

(I had to make this frame size a bit smaller to fit)

These are the questions that keep me awake at night.


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## sharpstikman (Aug 28, 2005)

hellow yall. what about the two half hitch in small line this realy bights to whatever yuor tying to and is easy to untie.


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## sharpstikman (Aug 28, 2005)

I am also working on having some break testing done on some knots and hitches ,will let yall know what i find out.


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## NickfromWI (Aug 29, 2005)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Dr. Nick; how do ya think that Bull would do replacing a Cow for mounting (getting Kinky...) a Porty, pulley etc. to suitable anchor etc.?



I have this feeling that due to the extra bending in the rope, the bull is not as strong/efficient as the cow. I'm guessing you'd wand the cow for strength, the bull for security.

Since the cow works fine for attaching a porty, I don't think it'd be worth it to sacrifice the strength of the cow for unneeded security of the bull.

love
nick


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## NickfromWI (Aug 29, 2005)

Mike Maas said:


> What is the advantage over a girth hitch, if it's bigger, slower to tie, hard to untied, and probably weaker breaking strength do to bends?



It's security makes it good for attaching large rope to small rings. I've had new 1/2" rope ungirth itself from the small ring on a RING/ring friction saver. This is what brought me to find a fix.

Thus is often the case in rigging. Which do you prefer, strength or security?

love
nick


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## NickfromWI (Aug 29, 2005)

darkstar said:


> TREEMACHINE grandious .... you are certainly correct ...i rarely find nyaone who can tie a BEER knot .... so fess up arborist do most of you all know this wonderful knot...? and tree machine ...tell the boys how much the strength is increased by using the BEER instead of the water hmmmmm? knot..dark




The Beer would be used everywhere you'd use the Water knot. And the difference between the two????





Water and beer are basically the same, but the beer is better     


this from the guy who doesn't drink!

love
nick


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## NickfromWI (Aug 29, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Before you start telling me I've got too much time on my hands, look at this hitch, imagine the same hitch wraped around rope. What is it? Look closely.... :Eye:



I'd call that a distel!

love
nick


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## darkstar (Aug 29, 2005)

the BEER IS WAY BETTER and STRONGER hey cool tip we use for the untie of a sticky throw line knot is ??????????????


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## darkstar (Aug 29, 2005)

[[the bic lighter]]


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## Tree Machine (Aug 29, 2005)

That's the right answer. Do you have to untie it (or melt it off) ever?


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## Stumper (Aug 29, 2005)

Mike Maas said:


> Yeah, that's right. Isn't there another name for the tautline when it changes direction, other than an open Prusik?


The literature and history are a muddled up mess. It could be called a Midshipman's, Magnus, Rolling or Camel hitch-all of which are depicted both unidirectional and bidirectional in old sailing literature. All of the versions predate Karl Prussik so calling the "corrected Tautline" an open Prussik is inappropriate-no matter how "accepted" it has become on the web forums.Magnus and rolling hitch were the names usually used when tied on a spar-Midshipman's Hitch was the three wrap version on rope. The Camel Hitch descibes the 4 wrap on rope.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 29, 2005)

Where does "corrected Tautline" come from?


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## Stumper (Aug 29, 2005)

The ultimate authority.---------Me! 

Reversing the upper wrap is so much superior to the unidirectional versions that I can only conclude that 3 generations of authors and climbers have just been copying an old mistake.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 30, 2005)

I'm no authority, but I find this stuff fascinating.


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 30, 2005)

*Beer knot and on rope*

I'm not real smat, but i do have a book  

"On Rope" by Smith and Padgett. They state that the Beer knot/splice was presented by Peter Ludwig from Austria, during an NSS conference. they also say that in 1995 in tests at PMI lab the knot consistently tested at about 80% of the original strength of the webbing.

I generally take anything from "On Rope" with a grain of salt, it is very opininated, and in my opinion, their results are affected by that opinion, theirs, not mine.


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 30, 2005)

*Bull hitch for split tails?*

What a great knot! i really like it.

i replace my split tails every month or so. Rather than spend the time or money on splices i use a fishermans. but the single loop does shift / ride up on the biner. I tried an anchor hitch, but didnt like the perpendicular tail. 

Will the Bull knot (mr. bull? be secure in an open split tail?

I seize / sew / duct tape the end to the standing part, and climb with a blakes.


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 30, 2005)

*securing a throw bag*

Like TM i use little biners, i cut the metal ring right off of the throwbags, then clip the biner through the now vacant hole. However, even before that i used an anchor hitch to tie the slickline to the throwbag. It does not shift on the ring, has never come undone while working and is easily untied. It has worked so well i can't imagine using another knot.

It sounds like other people do use different knots  

I'm going to start using the Bull hitch on my little biners but is there a knot that works better than the anchor hitch on a closed ring?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 30, 2005)

Cow, backed with a half-hitch, triple cow, bull, double fisherman's, triple fisherman's, and about twelve others.

To terminate the end of the rope as it exits a hitch or knot ('sieze' the bitter end) you can use an awl to stitch the end and /or whipp it. I only mention the use of an awl because I find it handy for a number of other things in tree care and it's a very inexpensive and versatile tool to have in the kit box with your rope / webbing accessories.

Another use for the bull hitch (along with the Beer knot) is in rigging ascenders. In the most recent instance I tried tying the loops with the ascender handles _inside_ the loop. I like rigging mine with two identical web loops that act as one (no real 'extra weight', nor expense, double the strength and peace of mind). If you were just to apply the loops as I did, the weight of the beer knots would make them drop to the lowest point, which is where you're going to be attaching the ascenders to your saddle, the place where you connect via a caribiner. I feel it necessary to keep the Beer knot out of places of bend, and direct force.

Here's a pic of the Kong duals with dual loop runners. I used a couple stitches with the awl to 'fix' the loops in place and keep the Beer knot from shifting. I set the knots up high, near the handle, in direct line of my sight so I can frequently inspect them in use. The stitch ges through the terminal tail of the beer know, further fixing it from any potential for slippage.

Right now, the loops are just a little bit too long, by maybe 6 or 8 cm (~2-3"). The way I have them rigged, there is no adjustability and not removable (without untying the Beer, or cutting the loop). If I were to attach these same length loops with the bull hitch they'll probably be close to a perfect length, the knot would be secured from shifting, and the loops would be removable. In tying the bull hitch with webbing, dress carefully. With webbing, a girth hitch (aka choker) does not shift much, so the bull twist addition not entirely essential, other than giving the hitch more 'permanence'.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 30, 2005)

"On Rope" carries a lot of credibility in the rest of the vertical rope world, opinions and all. 

Why would they think of fudging test results that could be easily tested in another lab?

If you want to have a girth hitched sling stay in place better find runners that are sewn with a half-twist in the eye. When the girth hitch is made the result is one that lays flat without twists.

After reading many rope and webbing test results I think that the bull hitch would be weaker than a girth hitch. Is that an issue? It all depends on where the weak link is in the system and what the safety factor of the system is designe to be. I wouldn't want to comprimise the safety factor.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 30, 2005)

Where've you been, Brother? Did you do some out-of-town climbing?


Mr Dunlap said:


> If you want to have a girth hitched sling stay in place better find runners that are sewn with a half-twist in the eye. When the girth hitch is made the result is one that lays flat without twists.


Good one, Tom. One of the finer nuances of slingology.

And true about on-rope. That's one of the definitions of good, objective science; it measures accurately, and is reproducible with other labs. If you're data's not bulletproof, you don't stand to make it in the community.


Tom said:


> think that the bull hitch would be weaker than a girth hitch. Is that an issue?


We have to make one assumption, and that is, that the knot is tied properly. If the weak link was not the knot, then the weak link would be the choker/girth/cow-bull, OR the biner. Since our biner is rated at LEAST 25 Kn, we assume the caribiner to not fail. The weak link, by process of elimination, would be the webbing itself, or the hitch. I think the 'practical' difference would be in a severe shockload (rigging) as to where the weak link actually is. A tensiometer would do that. American Wire Rope has those testing units, and you have to pay money and donate your sling to the cause. You can send it and they'll cerify the breaking tensile and tell you exctly where it failed. You could do a couple cows, a couple bulls and have a really good feel for the strength of web slings and biners. Those are pretty massive forces to cause a bull or cow (or tube webbing) to fail.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 30, 2005)

IN most cases of soft link testing, they fail at the hitch not the cord/rope/webbing.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 30, 2005)

As we would expect. The hitch is the weak link, which brings us to an important equation that Isaac Newton was working on when he was doing his gravity gig.

<b>If Beer = 80%, then bull =< 80</b>

If a Beer knot will fail at 80% of the rated breaking strength of the webbing, then the bull hitch will fail at somewhere equal to or less than 80%. If we knew the breaking force of webbing, we could extrpolate to figure the breaking strength of cow and bull. We could place bets where we think it might blow out.

Personally, I'd be interested to know the difference in breaking strength between the cow hitch (choker, girth hitch) and the bull. Could be a fun, field trip sort of event. Bring the video camera.

Does this sound like the most direct way to put the dilemma to rest, actually measure it directly?


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## Tree Machine (Aug 30, 2005)

We'd have to set our parameters. Called 'experimental design', laying out exactly what is done and how so that our results would be reproducible.

I'll start the format:

Six slings to be tested, all tied the same length from a 1 meter length of webbing
3 cow, 3 bull
1" (2.54 cm) tube webbing 
Cow / Bull affixed to the flat side of a _maillon rapide_ or to the curved inside bend of a steel caribiner (we choose)
Cow/Bull hitches tied *at[/i] the testing facility under video
Beer knot placed approximately 50% between the two ends of the sling, right in the middle
testing done under video

Anything else? That way we can share it between ourselves and have it be reproducible.*


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## NickfromWI (Aug 30, 2005)

bluespruce said:


> Will the Bull knot (mr. bull? be secure in an open split tail?





Maybe.

And when it comes to rigging, maybe equals NO unless it HAS to equal yes.

love
nick


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## darkstar (Aug 30, 2005)

hey guys im about 10 mins from [on ropes ] shop ... but our local rope manufactuer has better testing equipment ... pidgeon mountain industries .... ill call and request a load test to be done on the ,water / beer ..... only i think they will approve the test already standing .... hey who cares anyhow ...in the real world there are so ,so many other factors ......was thinking when i tie in for rockclimbing i use a figure 8 or a double bowline ... when tree climbing im using a overhand with half hitch b/u ..... go figure .... tree climbing is way more dangerous usually ...i like the overhand because is ties very fast ....always have a long tail ... but then i know im wrong ... :angel:


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 30, 2005)

If you're going to test the Bull Hitch, you need to start with a webbing sling of known strength. Get a factory sewn one. That'll take the variable of the Beer Knot out of the forumula. We already know how the Beer Knot performs in tubular webbing.


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## NickfromWI (Aug 30, 2005)

That would be AWESOME if the bull hitch could be tested to compare it's strength to the cow hitch.

love
nick


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 30, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Cow, backed with a half-hitch, triple cow, bull, double fisherman's, triple fisherman's, and about twelve others.
> 
> You think a double fishermans is easier to untie than an anchor hitch? the fishermans has always bound up on me and been difficult to untie. I think we may have a misunderstanding TM. i started using an anchor because it is quick to tie and easy to untie from the closed rings that come with most throwbags.
> 
> ...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 31, 2005)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Tree Machine said:
> 
> 
> > That would be AWESOME if the bull hitch could be tested to compare it's strength to the cow hitch.
> ...


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 31, 2005)

CoreyTMorine said:


> re onrope; im not disputing their data, just some of their conclusions. ie "girth hitching as a general rule is unacceptable as a rigging technique" p.65 fig 4-17. and page 115 they state about a figure 8 "unfortunately, this level of control is acheived entirely with the friction against the rappellers hip and the squeezing of the brake hand."
> 
> its a good book that i have learned much from reading, but statements like those above are misleading or incorrect, so i take everything from that book with a grain of salt.



After reading all of what you refer to I come to a different conclusion. There are much better rigging systems available that don't comprimise the strength like girth hitching. Minimizing strength loss is the issue. In the text that accompanies the girth hitch they do mention some uses. Arbos aren't as trained in how to account for all of the forces and loads in the systems. With a better understanding of dynamic loads it's pretty clear that there is room for improvement. 

Figure eights are one of the poorer choices for descending. A Munter hitch develops more friction in most of the usual configurations. Can't get any simpler than using just a biner for descent. The rope hockling isn't any worse using a Munter or an eight in my experience. Neither of them have much friction and need to be monitored closely. 

OUtside of the arbo world proper rappel procedure is taught where the brake hand is kept just behind the hip as a backup. Arbos don't seem to have brought this bit of procedure over from the rest of the vertical rope world. 

The setup in 5-34 is a nice, compact and inexpensive rappel setup. It's a mystery to me why racks aren't as popular considering the tradeoffs using figure eight type devices. The only reason that I can see is that racks have a very low "Cool Factor". How can they compete against really cool looking anodized shapes like the Piranha and Cardiac Arrestor? Are the P and CA rated for arbo ropes?


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## darkstar (Aug 31, 2005)

tom i thin racks are just to bulky etc.... here in tennessee they are very popular however with the spelunkers .... we have many deep pits ... im a fan of the munter hitch as well it is excellant for belaying .... i think it would be really interesting to see how the knots we are talkking about compare on different ropes .... i bet some are stronger depending on what type of rope is being used .....would be really hard to factor all that in allthough


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Racks ARE bulky. They involve a number of steps to apply. Every step needs to be repeated in reverse for the thing to come off. Even the conventional soft lock is two steps.

Treeguys could use one step ON, one step Off. One step soft lock, one alternate single step hard lock. You can not ask that of a rack.

Cavers don't care. Security and absolute precision control are paramount. Time on and off rope is not. I vote for security and absolute precision in one step. If we can put a vehicle on MARS, I'm quite certain we can overcome our ONE-STEP technological hurdle.



> You think a double fishermans is easier to untie than an anchor hitch?


I don't think of them from the standpoint of untyability(?) because I rarely untie anything. If it involves tying, or untying in any repetitive manner whatsoevery, I'll opt to put an eye and a biner, make it instantaneous. Knots, as much as I love em, are not instantaneous; nor can you do knots one-handed, left or right. Knots, in my world (and I understand I live in my own little world  ), are not a dynamic exchange of doing and undoing. Knots get put on to stay. Biners and eyed terminations do all the rigging and connecting.




(but that's just me)


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Mike Maas said:


> CoreyTMorine said:
> 
> 
> > Take a loop, tie a cow on one end, a bull on the other, and pull. Which breaks first is the loser.
> ...


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm all for testing the dual biner'd Cow / Bull hybrid Beer in the middle sling on COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE 1" tube webbing. We need to test on the stuff the guys are using commonly, and that's from the webbing you get at the sporting goods or rock shop.

Let's at least start with that as a baseline.


> Get a factory sewn one. That'll take the variable of the Beer Knot out of the forumula.


I'd like to think the Beer is right in there swingin and being tested with the Cows and the Bulls.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Wouldn't this be a fun video to bring to TCIA?


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 31, 2005)

Kittens it is, in this thread 

There are times when generalities work. When talking about rigging and climbing I don't like using generalities without adding all of the footnotes and qualifiers. My preference is to slice and dice to get all of the info on the table.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Let's add all the footnotes and qualifiers, but let's keep it all real life-setting. I'd like to know the Cow / Bull tensile on spectra and tenex, but as a general rule, if a guy ties his own sling, he's using webbing he gets from mail order of at a sport shop. 1" is the stuff that guys use most, and what a Beer knot works really well in. 1/2" (1.25 cm) doen not work well with a Beer knot, nor does Spectra or Tenex. This defines our 'kitten', what is most used in the field.

For starters, does anyone know the tensile of commercially available 1" tube webbing?

(ps it's amazing that in a thread about the bull hitch, that 5 pages later, we're still talking about a bull hitch)


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

For the guys who find this thread terribly interesting, but have no clue what a Beer knot is, I'm going to tie a couple up this afternoon. I'll set up the video camera and we'll see what the Beer knot looks like. I don't mind because, like DarkStar says, it such a very cool knot. Long ago I tried using a chopstick to perform the knot, and it works really, really well, so I'll be showing the chopstick method of the Beer knot.

Hopefully tonight. The slings will be either black or purple.


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 31, 2005)

*Gypo field test 001 - 004*

Today I worked for my good friend “Hurricane Al”. He is called Hurricane because after Al is done with a job it looks like a firkin’ hurricane went through. Al is a logger from the old school, he mostly cuts timber, but when he gets up around a house or something he calls me. This man has single handedly destroyed more of my cordage than everyone else combined. Any way, we break about 10 am, and I says to Big Al “Hey, you feel like breakin’ some rope? I gutta knot I wanna check out, should take about 15 minutes.” He says “Yeah I can break some rope.” I chuckle coldly to myself, thinking, yes, I know. Lol. 

So, he backs the Timber Jack up to a big rock a few feet in front of a big tree, and pays out 5 or 6 feet of cable. I secure a 5/8” shackle to the tree, tie a Bull hitch to the shackle, and tie an anchor hitch to the grab link on the cable. The grab link diameter is just a hair smaller than the shackle diameter. Oh yeah, the rope is a 20’ piece of ½” yale XTC from last years climbing line.

“Go ahead (to Al), get away from that thing (to the apes).” The two ground guys are right up on the rope waiting to see what is going to happen. Al starts taking in cable, 2 or 3 feet per second. The rope comes taut, stiffens, goes elastic for about 8”, and lets go. It broke in the anchor hitch, just where the first turn hits the grab link.

“Gimme some slack.” I leave the Bull hitch in place and tie a cow hitch to the grab link. “Take it up.” Same thing, the cow hitch breaks. It did not slip, and I kind of expected it to. I believe the section of rope I used to tie the cow was compromised by the previous test. So “Gimme some slack.”

I grab the other half of the climbing line and tie a bull hitch to the grab link and a cow hitch to the shackle. “Take it up.” The line comes tight, and the cow hitch starts to slide. “Woe, slack.” I loosen the cow and try to pull the section of rope involved in sliding through the knot all the way through. Retie the cow, and put a grapevine about 8” up from the cow hitch. 

“Take it up.” The line comes taut, and the cow hitch appears to slide, ????it. “Woe.” Al slacks off and I go over to check things out. Oh, the Cow didn’t slide, it broke, but the line was held taut by the grapevine.

“I’m not making any money doin this!” that from Al, signaling an end to my Gypo field test.

Conclusions: well this was a pretty halfassed, no control having, rough test, so any conclusions drawn here are preliminary and subject to change. That being said I think mr. Bull is stronger than the cow hitch. There are more wraps and bends in the line (is this a pretty good indicator that a knot will test out weaker than a knot with fewer turns? I haven’t seen any lab test results on knots.) However the bends are not as sharp as in a cow or an anchor hitch, and constricting forces seem more evenly spread throughout the Bull hitch. 

Also the Bull did not appear to slip or creep. I’m going to wait and see the results of some more tests, but I think this is going to be a great knot with which to secure my split tail.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

*Tug test*

You rock, Blue Spruce. That is shoot from the hip, field test trials.You've added raw data. Add in a measuring device and we would call that _science_.

I gotta go back and read your Gypo test again.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Dude, what are you using for a split tail, what diameter?


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 31, 2005)

*slice and dice and on the table.*



Tom Dunlap said:


> Kittens it is, in this thread
> 
> There are times when generalities work. When talking about rigging and climbing I don't like using generalities without adding all of the footnotes and qualifiers. My preference is to slice and dice to get all of the info on the table.



Amen to that.


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## darkstar (Aug 31, 2005)

killer some one with pc skills and a vid are going to show case the beer knot ..... how did he think that one up HATS OFF...... MR. BEER


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 31, 2005)

*split tail stuff*



Tree Machine said:


> Dude, what are you using for a split tail, what diameter?



1/2" yale XTC (white)ussually, although i think they were out last time i purchased so i bought 1/2" new england rope hi-vee (white). i still have 12' of that left to use. I use 1/2" XTC red for my climbing line.

the hi-vee seems to wear out quicker, but has overall better / more regular performance than the XTC.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Onto what hardware are you tying the split tail; Maillon Rapide, caribiner, safety snap, D-ring?

I got the footage of the Beer Knot today on video. The chopstick did it's thing and another couple of perfect Beers went down. I have to say, it was an excellent Beer day, I think you'll see. 

I needs to clean it up and edit, and then I'm gonna try to find some CSN for background music. 

While I'm editing video, who of the noobs can tell me the difference between a knot and a hitch?


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## CoreyTMorine (Aug 31, 2005)

petzl am'd ball lock biner. the split tail on the left "loop" of a master saddle, the climbing line terminates on the right "loop", small eye attatched to another am'd biner.

i have to get a batry for my camera.  let me see if i can find a pic?

a knot is something in hair wheras a hitch is in a ring.


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## sharpstikman (Aug 31, 2005)

hello yall, I bealive the 1'' tube webbing is 4,000 breaking strength I need some pictures of this bull ,cow hitch.I can maybe try this at work tommorrow.I dont have any arbo ropes yet in shop, but can use new england sta set yacht braid1/2, 6,000 breaking strength.we also have spectra,vectran,and dyneema in 12strand just to name a few


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## Tree Machine (Aug 31, 2005)

Cool ! If we say the safe working load is 400 pounds on that 4,000 lb webbing, then let the tests begin.

I'm still into the video editing. Be patient.


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## darkstar (Sep 10, 2005)

im patient ... are you still gonna post up the beer knot on vid ??????


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## b1rdman (Sep 10, 2005)

<-------------- Noob, first post...and I'd like to know the difference between a hitch and a knot.


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## CoreyTMorine (Sep 13, 2005)

a hitch is a type of knot tied around a ring, clip, or spar. ie timber hitch, clove hitch, anchor hitch. also if secured to another rope if the latter is inert, ie cammel hitch, blakes hitch, tautline hitch.

this definition is according to ashly and may not hold true for more modern knots. in example the prussik, which according to the older definition should be a hitch, but i've never heard anyone say "prussik hitch."


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## Tree Machine (Sep 13, 2005)

What Corey said. A hitch is tied to something, where a knot is tied to itself. He pointed out an exception, and another would be fishing knots, where they're tied to a hook should be classified as hitches, but in fishin, they're all knots.

Sorry about the delay on the video. I had all my external harddrives disappear from my computer, my computer guy was out of town for a week and finally yesterday we got everything restored. I had progression series of the Beer knot in still images and could have presented it much like the Bull with the yellow tenex sling early in this thread, but to really do this knot it's due service, it needs to be shown in real motion video. I'll finish that up, found the music and I'll hammer the final hour or two later on, then transfer the video to a server and link us up. It'll be fun.


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## darkstar (Sep 13, 2005)

awesome tree machine ..cant wait to see it ...darn hard one to tie that dang beer knot .... but so tidy very cool ..... thanx dark


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## Tree Machine (Sep 13, 2005)

It gets a lot easier with the chopstick technique. You'll see.


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## Tree Machine (Sep 13, 2005)

You won't believe the number of hours it took to produce this piece that's under a minute long. It still does not show as clear as I'd like, but it gives you the overall concept.

1) Proper length (up to you, but a wingspan is a good sling length)
2) Cut one end as a sharp angle, the other flat. Melt ends with a lighter
3) Cut a nick in the sharp end of the webbing. Split the end of the chopstick, or whittle it to a point.
4) Tie a common overhand knot toward the flat-cut end, one chopstick length from the end.
5) Put the sharp end of the chopstick in the tip of the angle end of the webbing.
6) Using the chopstick'd pointy web, push it into the flat-cut end of the webbing, the full length.
7) Pull out the chopstick.
8) Dress the lengths so the webbing is flat inside the webbing.
9) Work the overhand knot up into the dual web zone, all the way to the entry point (fast-motion part of the video). Don't think... _feel._
10) Dress and tighten up. You are finished.

Make sure you can feel the pointy-end of the webbing exiting the knot (interiorly) at least a few centimeters (an inch or more).

Between the instructions and the video, I believe you are on your way to Beer Knot Nirvana. For a real challenge, try stuffing the one end inside the other without the assistance of the chopstick. It CAN be done, but you'll realize quickly what an advantage the chopstick serves.

3.5 meg. To the dial-up guys, click on the link, go make a sandwich and come right back.

http://treeguy.info/videos/beer_knot.mov


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## darkstar (Sep 14, 2005)

AWESOME dude you are tir the beer insanely fast haha ... liked the fast mo ... that is a dang hard knot to tie but very tidy ...har .... i heard it is almost twice as strong as its brother the water knot ... makes me wonder how close the strength of the beer is to a sewn runner .... just got in fron the wood yard almost all peelers today 285 .00 for the load not bad ontop of our removal fee .... think ill go tie one on .... the beer knot ......


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## CoreyTMorine (Oct 8, 2005)

*new knot in action*

Well we’ve come full around, from mr. Peabody’s blackboard to the jungle. 

The first pic is my new split tail next to the old one. The tail of the new one is sewn to the standing part, underneath the duct tape. I’ve been using it for a coupla weeks now and there appears to be no change in tension on either leg.

The second pic is the new split tail in action. A very busy saddle indeed. The primary climbline (the one w/ the new ST) goes over to the Oak, screen right. The center ring is a secondary tie in several feet above me in the birch. The webbing covered rope is my life support sling which is currently being used to secure the camera case.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 8, 2005)

Do you see how the two round turns on the top of the biner shifts the load towards the gate? With a double fisherman's/overhand bend you only have one round turn and the load is more centered.

If you decide to use this knot you should consider shifting over to using the large end of HMS type biners. Putting the load towards the gate can overload the locking mechanism and can jam up the gate too.


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## darkstar (Oct 8, 2005)

I was reading an account of locking biner failure [it broke] while a guy was rapelling using a fig.8 they think the 8 loaded the locker applying inward pressure on the gate it self ... they tested a bunch of locking biners and fuond that if you apply press. inward on the gate they usually fail around 500 pounds . when the guy applied breaking hand it is assumed the 8 was twisted and torqued onto the gate of the biner tus eaosly exceeding 500 pounds ... scary


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## NickfromWI (Jan 31, 2007)

Here's how to tie this know on a bight:

http://www.zippyvideos.com/8015420726596256/bull.hitch.bight/

love
nick


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