# A & E...The art and Zen of the Grunt (Groundworker)



## TreeTarget (Mar 21, 2010)

It would require alot of time to list the various niches of the business, and the different requirements for each. Many of these divisions have resulted in the specializations listed in this forum, and alot of that information--though beneficial--fails to recognize the metaphorical sphincter of the organization.

We are talking about the ground-crew, here. Grunt, laborer, carrier, pilot, humper, gopher, counsellor, lackey, pawn, carry-all, stacker, pusher, apprentice, disciple, jockey, hourly, mule, packer, consultant, hauler, runner, puller, stand-by, quality-assurance, tugger, wedge, mover, raker, janitor, loader, excuse, butt, juicer, sharpener, you get the drift...
Not that the arborist, when you work for one worth the title, doesn't deserve the focus...but there are other aspects of the work that are not as glamorous, though worth some mention nevertheless.

In my time with tree-crews and subsidiaries such as hauling/heavy equipment, I have...
Driven the trucks with fantasies of Maximum Overdrive, operated the buckets without a problem, ran the cats and backhoes and front-end loaders--that was a favorite, set up rigging as trained and later (years later) learned how I SHOULD have done it, fed chippers that gave me nightmares, used saws that seemed bigger that I was and kept records with clear focus and little understanding.

Nowadays...I am just a grunt. No, not a complaint.

Lack of responsibility...no.
Gravy Job...no.
The pay...this isn't the funny thread.
Glamour...my wife doen't mind the grime, but...

When I was a kid, I really enjoyed fall, and the gathering of firewood. That, and running through the woods (no, sadly they did not have cross-country running in schools when I moved here from out west). I am older now, so don't run much, but I still feel pretty good after working the body all day like I never got out of the other aspects of the tree-care industry.

What I don't need:
Another license (driving to work and back is enough), liability for damages (hard to demolish my end of the business if you are being alert), certifications (have enough, don't need more now, thank you), or records (hours worked is easy to jot down).
What I do need:
Glasses, hard-hat, lunch, water, attention to the boss and falling objects.

Simple.
Satori is a worthwhile achievement/goal/experience/state, no matter the endeavor. The purity of being a grunt tends to lend a piece to the mind through the focus that I find within the work itself...the breath, the heartbeat, the firmness of the ground, the simple physics of the innane and the solving of koans without the exertion of empty, worthless thoughts.
Cannot say how many times, driving home from a day of slave-labor, that there suddenly appears before my mind the solution to a problem I had not thought on all day--having been lost in the minuteness of the sawdust, the chain oil and filings...the firmness and tight feeling in my hands from putting my will through them and into my task.

Not to say there is not alot to learn when it comes to being being on the ground. Root flairs, knots (could actually apply that to home life), studying small-engine repair, trying to anticipate the boss's needs and not getting upset when his attitude lets you know when he is getting low on sugar (usually around the customer), leverage, invention, where did I put that tool, and on and on...
But when it comes down to it, these are just little things. One gets used to it and they become little things in the background...kind of like the boss's sugar crashes. It is the working of the body that clears my mind. Lunch will soothe the boss...Lactic acids and a hot shower work the other wonders.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2010)

Lmfao the best grunt is a retired climber what we need is boys willing to learn 
I would bet if a groundy experience one violent shock load at ninety foot he would instantly learn how to let it run. Too bad most will never know the real end of treework. I have done the ground it pales in comparison on some climbs and on others it is easier but yes the ground has its difficulty but most climbers have and some like myself still do ground and climbing!


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## TreeTarget (Mar 21, 2010)

Been around some of those younger guys. Some are willing to learn, alot have a fascination with movin' right along when the job gets rough.

Have only had two bosses (either climbers or butchers) that worked the ground. Too many you run into seem above it...but that's ok...job security.


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## EdenT (Mar 21, 2010)

*It's an arbor team....*

I work both ground and climb. I think a climber can only be as good as the ground crew supporting them. Likewise the ground crew are dependent on good direction from the climber. My favorite days are when the whole team meshes perfectly, everybody knows what they're doing, and it gets done safely and quickly. When I am in a tree, my comfort level correlates almost exactly with my confidence in my ground crew. Good groundies are worth their weight in gold!

Whatever you do, remember your life is ticking away while your doing it. Always be the best you, you can be.To do less is to rob yourself of life!

Great post Tree Target


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## tree md (Mar 21, 2010)

I've had some good ones and still do. Some have passed on. My first groundie was in his 40's when I started out in my early 20's. He died young. Had another good one pass on as well. Longtime ex girlfriend's step dad. He was in his 50's when he worked for me and would work from sunup to sundown and never complain. Worked circles around the younger guys. Also, the guy who first put me in a tree used to groundie for me while I climbed. The deal was I still had to do ground work too when I came down though. 

I have never been the type to sit on my ass when the tree is on the ground. LOL, I would say that I still work the hardest on the ground than any of my crew. I like to run the ground operation when I have an apprentice climber too. It's fun teaching someone to climb and as has been mentioned, no one can run the ropes better than a climber. Also, if you are the owner or even the crew chief it is good to spend some time on the ground with your guys. If you're the crew chief or owner, odds are that you have the most experience. It's good to get down with the ground crew and teach them the shortcuts and best way to do things. It's simple arithmetic after you have been doing it for a lot of years but not so to newer guys. Simple things like the natural order of cleanup, how to run a saw, get the truck closer to the brush pile to make shorter trips. All common sense but newer guys still need to be shown the best way. It makes for a better more cohesive team when you take the time to show your guys the shortcuts and let them know that you don't think yourself above ground work. When they see you know how to do it well and there is a reason that you tell them to do things in a certain order they tend to have a lot more respect for you.


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## Tree Pig (Mar 21, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> It would require alot of time to list the various niches of the business, and the different requirements for each. Many of these divisions have resulted in the specializations listed in this forum, and alot of that information--though beneficial--fails to recognize the metaphorical sphincter of the organization.
> 
> We are talking about the ground-crew, here. Grunt, laborer, carrier, pilot, humper, gopher, counsellor, lackey, pawn, carry-all, stacker, pusher, apprentice, disciple, jockey, hourly, mule, packer, consultant, hauler, runner, puller, stand-by, quality-assurance, tugger, wedge, mover, raker, janitor, loader, excuse, butt, juicer, sharpener, you get the drift...
> Not that the arborist, when you work for one worth the title, doesn't deserve the focus...but there are other aspects of the work that are not as glamorous, though worth some mention nevertheless.
> ...




Very insightful in a spiritual way, but it sounds more like Musashi, then zen. Musashi the greatest Samurai that ever lived, and became a writer/philosopher after he saw too much battle. 

"Get beyond love and grief: exist for the good of Man.”
— Miyamoto Musashi (Book of Five Rings)


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Been around some of those younger guys. Some are willing to learn, alot have a fascination with movin' right along when the job gets rough.
> 
> Have only had two bosses (either climbers or butchers) that worked the ground. Too many you run into seem above it...but that's ok...job security.



I will say if things are right as rain there won't be too much for the climber to do when he hits ground but that is expecting performance from great ground team. It depends on what I see from the tree and the work at hand how much energy I expel when my feets hit the ground. In other words, have they been truly working and just the sheer amount of material has them behind,or is it the case of; cell phone walking around or standing with hands in pockets. If it is the latter, I expel energy vocally and if that don't work, I send them home and do it myself. What I was referring to earlier was the art of working ropes and a climber truly can do it better than any ground dwelling creature because he automatically knows when to leave some slack,when to pull it tight and how to let it run. If your a grunt that has learned all this, your valuable and team man number two. labor is a dime a dozen,most can drag brush and load chunks.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 21, 2010)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Very insightful in a spiritual way, but it sounds more like Musashi, then zen. Musashi the greatest Samurai that ever lived, and became a writer/philosopher after he saw too much battle.
> 
> "Get beyond love and grief: exist for the good of Man.”
> — Miyamoto Musashi (Book of Five Rings)



Good, Musashi was Zen, and Satori may be practiced at any time, be it wielding the sword or the brush-hook.
I will admit...though it does feel good to have the ground clear when the monkey comes down from the tree, there are alot of little things that don't come so easily. Luckily, I have not dropped dead yet like tree md's help, and try to stay safe/realize my limitations.
I try to save energy and make movements/labor productive, yet it's the little things that work the wear... throw-ball knots and inaccuracy/inexperience; snapping rake/shovel handles; oil cap not tight, so boss lubricates leg on way to tree...you know, little things.
BUT...
I don't have kids to deal with and the liabilities that go along with teaching...I don't have to sit on my butt listening to other people's problems or ask them about their relationship with their mother...and I don't have to do paperwork...I like my job.


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## outofmytree (Mar 21, 2010)

Cool OP. I have had good and bad ground crew and the best were over 35. I think the best all round crew would be one experienced hand with good people skills and some raw muscle. Brains and brawn if you know what I mean. I do most of the climbing for my team and I have to say the last thing I want to do after 6-8 hours in harness is drag brush. Gratefully that is not a problem.


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## Burvol (Mar 21, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> It would require alot of time to list the various niches of the business, and the different requirements for each. Many of these divisions have resulted in the specializations listed in this forum, and alot of that information--though beneficial--fails to recognize the metaphorical sphincter of the organization.
> 
> We are talking about the ground-crew, here. Grunt, laborer, carrier, pilot, humper, gopher, counsellor, lackey, pawn, carry-all, stacker, pusher, apprentice, disciple, jockey, hourly, mule, packer, consultant, hauler, runner, puller, stand-by, quality-assurance, tugger, wedge, mover, raker, janitor, loader, excuse, butt, juicer, sharpener, you get the drift...
> Not that the arborist, when you work for one worth the title, doesn't deserve the focus...but there are other aspects of the work that are not as glamorous, though worth some mention nevertheless.
> ...



Piece of cake bro. Good thing you know how to not F-up what works for you and makes ya happy


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 21, 2010)

Whew! Windy.
Jeff


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## tree md (Mar 21, 2010)

This post made me think about my first groundie and I had to chuckle. I learned so much from that guy. He had nearly 20 years on me and had been doing tree work a heck of a lot longer than me. He had worked for my first boss then came to work with me when I started doing my own jobs. He taught me how to sharpen a chain and a lot of other stuff. The dude could fix anything. I remember I was up in the tree one day and I saw him make a choker out of a length of rope, stack a bunch of limbs on it, choke the butt ends and drag the whole pile to the truck. He was bald headed and I told him that that was using his head for something other than growing hair on. When he would get frustrated with me he would tell me he was going to jerk the hair off of my head and put it on his. We ran out of gas in the pickup one day about a mile from the gas station and he got a long neck beer bottle off the side of the road, put some saw gas in there and somehow hooked the fuel line to it under the hood. It got us to the gas station without having to walk. This guy was hilarious. He was roping a limb for me one day and I took it a little too heavy. It drug him halfway up the tree but he never let go. He saved my ass on that one. I asked him one day why he never climbed. He told me only two things fall from the sky; bird#### and fools. Everyone affectionately called him Bubba... RIP Bubba.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 21, 2010)

The biggest problem for being an old dog...finding out alot of the things I learned years ago, though applicable to a situation, are either totally unsafe or completely devoid of the nuiances required to do the job correctly.

My first ground job, I learned how to sharpen with an electric grinder, how to drive the rigs and operate the equipment, how to cut down a tree or bring it down.

Subsequent jobs (yeah, I keep returning to labor...dumb) showed what I had learned in my previous tree-service work was taught by a professional short-cutter. Digging graves corrected the sloppiness of backhoe work; driving a gravel truck was easier when I was educated on how to unlock brakes and taught the wonders of speed-shifting and double-clutching; angles, sheen and symmetry matter when sharpening a saw.

...It's coming along...the knots and ties are the hardest so far. Though I tied many shoelaces together in my time, none of that ever related to tree work. Norwegian Butterfly, double-fisherman, prusik (sp?)...it's coming along...

I still get a kick though, when I hear, "What the hell?" coming from up in the tree, when the equipment is tied on in a way I would not have, had I remembered the right knot.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> The biggest problem for being an old dog...finding out alot of the things I learned years ago, though applicable to a situation, are either totally unsafe or completely devoid of the nuiances required to do the job correctly.
> 
> My first ground job, I learned how to sharpen with an electric grinder, how to drive the rigs and operate the equipment, how to cut down a tree or bring it down.
> 
> ...



Lol tree target you sound like you may have what it takes to be a good ground dude lol. I know we climbers can bring much expectation and even at times more than seems humanly possible and some of us also bring mental deficiency seemingly upon you, the good thing is; if we are griping at you then it usually means you are the go to guy. I know that sounds lame but it is true. I won't waist my breath on someone not trying.


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 21, 2010)

So I see you guys have met Tree Target... He's been working ground with me for a few months now, and we've been good friends for years and years. 

So that makes me the tree monkey that's grumpy when his bloodsugar is low, and the guy who's going "what the hell?" when the rig line comes up in a gob of loops and hitches instead of a sheet bend or a clove.

Sometimes I probably don't train enough, and expect too much, but Tree Target is coming along well. Last week he timed a drop perfectly as the dead tulip poplar limb swung out from over the house and into the yard and landed exactly where I wanted it. And I rarely mess with any brush anymore, unless I've brought in a bucket and I'm on the ground too. It's nice.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


> So I see you guys have met Tree Target... He's been working ground with me for a few months now, and we've been good friends for years and years.
> 
> So that makes me the tree monkey that's grumpy when his bloodsugar is low, and the guy who's going "what the hell?" when the rig line comes up in a gob of loops and hitches instead of a sheet bend or a clove.
> 
> Sometimes I probably don't train enough, and expect too much, but Tree Target is coming along well. Last week he timed a drop perfectly as the dead tulip poplar limb swung out from over the house and into the yard and landed exactly where I wanted it. And I rarely mess with any brush anymore, unless I've brought in a bucket and I'm on the ground too. It's nice.



Well it's good he is working out, means ya don't have to teach him the thirteen wraps over a loop knot:hmm3grin2orange:


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## tree md (Mar 21, 2010)

Just to have a groundman take enough interest to read and post here has to be refreshing. I know it would be for me.

Although every task is important, knowing how to run the ropes is the biggest thing I look for in a good groundie.

The groundie I have had with me for about three years now is from the same part of GA as me. We grew up not far from each other and knew a lot of the same people back home. He worked the ground for his brother in law's tree service for around 20 years. He's good on the ropes. We did one Friday where we had to swing almost every limb and chunk out from over the house and land them in the yard before they swung back into the house. He did his job flawlessly. I've got two good rope men that have been with me for 2 years or better now.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 21, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> means ya don't have to teach him the thirteen wraps over a loop knot:hmm3grin2orange:



See, there you go...and all I have to say is, Huh? I can't even stay awake long enough to hunt deer...no way I'm going after snipe.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> See, there you go...and all I have to say is, Huh? I can't even stay awake long enough to hunt deer...no way I'm going after snipe.



It is called a noose :hmm3grin2orange:


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## TreeTarget (Mar 22, 2010)

ok, I like westerns...been practicing...


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## B-Edwards (Mar 23, 2010)

A great groundman is very very important. I Never worked with but one or two who had a clue. I had the dumbest groundman ever for a short while. On one job all I had him doing was carrying a backpack with a rope gas & oil and saw wrench, thats all . He didnt have to do anything but be there when we needed the rope or refuel. We were cutting a view with no trims, just slash. I instructed him to stay uphill from us so we could cut the trees downhill. He was constantly in the way. The owner had flown in just for this special job. I really wanted to impress the guy because of the obvious( he was a wealthy developer who was all business). We finaly need the rope so we can pull a tree downhill and the freaking moron had lost the backpack. Made us look like fools infront of the fellow. I finaly melted down and believe it or not gained some respect back from the owner. He commented to me later that it was impossible to find anyone who would work hard with a brain. Several times I had to say to him "Your other left". Guy was/is a moron. I guess I have to take some blame for letting him work.

Nothing works like a team that thinks alike. Groundman with a brain and hardworker to boot is very valuble and deserves respect.


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## treemandan (Mar 23, 2010)

Praise be to the competent groundy.


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## treevet (Mar 23, 2010)

tree md said:


> Just to have a groundman take enough interest to read and post here has to be refreshing. I know it would be for me.
> 
> Although every task is important, knowing how to run the ropes is the biggest thing I look for in a good groundie.
> 
> The groundie I have had with me for about three years now is from the same part of GA as me. We grew up not far from each other and knew a lot of the same people back home. He worked the ground for his brother in law's tree service for around 20 years. He's good on the ropes. We did one Friday where we had to swing almost every limb and chunk out from over the house and land them in the yard before they swung back into the house. He did his job flawlessly. I've got two good rope men that have been with me for 2 years or better now.



That sounds like real good groundies.

My GM has been with me for over 3 years and is smart enough to be a CA, and strong enough to play tight end on 2 state champ football teams. He is honest sober smart attentive caring capable and any other good adjective you can think of. On the other hand I have had a guy who lived full time under a bridge as a gm and I should have just left him there because that is where he belonged.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 23, 2010)

treevet said:


> That sounds like real good groundies.
> 
> My GM has been with me for over 3 years and is smart enough to be a CA, and strong enough to play tight end on 2 state champ football teams. He is honest sober smart attentive caring capable and any other good adjective you can think of. On the other hand I have had a guy who lived full time under a bridge as a gm and I should have just left him there because that is where he belonged.



It is good you tried really, some people are just having a bad hand and others deal them Most are like you mentioned though.


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## treevet (Mar 23, 2010)

My current all star gm just needed a chance as he was about a year AA. 

I used to be the king of causes and trying to rehab a hopeless case. You get disappointed a lot and I ended up a lot of time throwing a bicycle on my truck and going to the job then ride it back to the lot to get another truck and more equipment. Work all day myself even on big td's.


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## tree md (Mar 23, 2010)

The groundie that I was talking about earlier, the one who has been with me three years and is good on the ropes is in AA. He was in a halfway house/recovery house or whatever you call it when I met him. He has since moved in to his own place. He has fallen off the wagon a couple of times since I have known him but he straightened up pretty quick both times. He can't make it too long out there on alcohol. He's a pretty good hand. I'm glad I met him and put him to work. Me and my other guys will drink a little beer after work but we wait until he goes home before we break any beer out.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 23, 2010)

tree md said:


> The groundie that I was talking about earlier, the one who has been with me three years and is good on the ropes is in AA. He was in a halfway house/recovery house or whatever you call it when I met him. He has since moved in to his own place. He has fallen off the wagon a couple of times since I have known him but he straightened up pretty quick both times. He can't make it too long out there on alcohol. He's a pretty good hand. I'm glad I met him and put him to work. Me and my other guys will drink a little beer after work but we wait until he goes home before we break any beer out.



I assure you he knows where to get beer if he wants some. I say that because, I have been sober since 95 but if I want a beer, I know where the liquor store is. Someone drinking in front of me does not get me drunk.


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## tree md (Mar 23, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I assure you he knows where to get beer if he wants some. I say that because, I have been sober since 95 but if I want a beer, I know where the liquor store is. Someone drinking in front of me does not get me drunk.



Oh believe me, I know he knows where to get it. Actually he prefers Bourbon. I've seen him on a drunk. It's not pretty. :hmm3grin2orange:

The times I've seen him on a drunk, he don't stop, eat dinner or go to bed. This dude will drink for three days straight or better. That is nonstop without eating or sleeping!

He has seen us drink beer before. I meant that he just don't hang out with us when we are imbibing.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 23, 2010)

tree md said:


> Oh believe me, I know he knows where to get it. Actually he prefers Bourbon. I've seen him on a drunk. It's not pretty. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> The times I've seen him on a drunk, he don't stop, eat dinner or go to bed. This dude will drink for three days straight or better. That is nonstop without eating or sleeping!
> 
> He has seen us drink beer before. I meant that he just don't hang out with us when we are imbibing.



Yeah I don't go into a keg party lol but if someone is having a drink and civil it does not bother me!


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## treevet (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't mind being around someone sipping a cold one but I absolutely hate the shiht faced cocktail lounge laugh. Never minded it when I was the drunk with one of my own lol.


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## treevet (Mar 24, 2010)

What are you doin on this thread B. Secord you old horney toad? Say something ....the world is waiting lol. I see you down there.


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## tree md (Mar 24, 2010)

I came up working with treemen and living the work hard, play hard philosophy. Believe me, I drank up a lot of take home pay. I pretty much gave up getting ####faced in my 30's. Just didn't care for getting drunk every night anymore. I still like to drink 2 or 3 and will still howl at the moon every now and then on special occasions. Very rare for me to drink more than 2 beers in a setting anymore. I can't stand to be around obnoxious drunks anymore either. Hell, I can't stand to be around myself when I'm drunk. :hmm3grin2orange:

I gave up drinking the hard stuff when I was around thirty. I couldn't stand working hungover. Funny how well my business took off when I finally grew up a little and quit drinking every night like a fool.


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## treevet (Mar 24, 2010)

tree md said:


> I came up working with treemen and living the work hard, play hard philosophy. Believe me, I drank up a lot of take home pay. I pretty much gave up getting ####faced in my 30's. Just didn't care for getting drunk every night anymore. I still like to drink 2 or 3 and will still howl at the moon every now and then on special occasions. Very rare for me to drink more than 2 beers in a setting anymore. I can't stand to be around obnoxious drunks anymore either. Hell, I can't stand to be around myself when I'm drunk. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I gave up drinking the hard stuff when I was around thirty. I couldn't stand working hungover. Funny how well my business took off when I finally grew up a little and quit drinking every night like a fool.



No doubt......and the cure for working with a hangover? Bit o the hair o the dog that bit ya haha.

Not proud of it but we used to get up in the top of a giant oak prune, me and my climber, I would pull up a boom box on a climbing line with a climbing knot , blow a big hooter....and have at it.

21 years sober before you start going safety police on me and wayyyy past the statute of limitations


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## ropensaddle (Mar 24, 2010)

treevet said:


> No doubt......and the cure for working with a hangover? Bit o the hair o the dog that bit ya haha.
> 
> Not proud of it but we used to get up in the top of a giant oak prune, me and my climber, I would pull up a boom box on a climbing line with a climbing knot , blow a big hooter....and have at it.
> 
> 21 years sober before you start going safety police on me and wayyyy past the statute of limitations



Lol I think many of us old timers lived sorted lives lol


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## ropensaddle (Mar 24, 2010)

Carp 600 o clock comes early I better lay the head down and be ripe in the AM:


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## TreeTarget (Mar 24, 2010)

treevet said:


> My current all star gm just needed a chance as he was about a year AA.
> 
> I used to be the king of causes and trying to rehab a hopeless case. You get disappointed a lot and I ended up a lot of time throwing a bicycle on my truck and going to the job then ride it back to the lot to get another truck and more equipment. Work all day myself even on big td's.



Don't ever think that was all worthless effort on your part...your loss was also your gain...right or wrong? Little bit of both?


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## TreeTarget (Mar 24, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I assure you he knows where to get beer if he wants some. I say that because, I have been sober since 95 but if I want a beer, I know where the liquor store is. Someone drinking in front of me does not get me drunk.



True...Personal choice...not AA, but I find the hooch store on the way home just as tempting as someone cracking a few around me...


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## TreeTarget (Mar 24, 2010)

tree md said:


> Oh believe me, I know he knows where to get it. Actually he prefers Bourbon. I've seen him on a drunk. It's not pretty. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> The times I've seen him on a drunk, he don't stop, eat dinner or go to bed. This dude will drink for three days straight or better. That is nonstop without eating or sleeping!
> 
> He has seen us drink beer before. I meant that he just don't hang out with us when we are imbibing.



I usually know when to stop...a bit late, but I stop...could not imagine such a life...seems you are helping, though...never knew you might be a role model, eh?


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## TreeTarget (Mar 24, 2010)

treevet said:


> No doubt......and the cure for working with a hangover? Bit o the hair o the dog that bit ya haha.
> 
> Not proud of it but we used to get up in the top of a giant oak prune, me and my climber, I would pull up a boom box on a climbing line with a climbing knot , blow a big hooter....and have at it.
> 
> 21 years sober before you start going safety police on me and wayyyy past the statute of limitations



Sober in the tree, on the ground, or both...either way...a sound, safe practice...


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## treevet (Mar 24, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Don't ever think that was all worthless effort on your part...your loss was also your gain...right or wrong? Little bit of both?



I like to think that some of them (I know one for sure) eventually got better and my input helped. It is often a cumulative thing. Mine was. (sobriety)


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## Beast o Bodmin (Mar 24, 2010)

i do all jobs but seem best at telling the public that they are right.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 30, 2010)

*Pay adjustments or raises...all based on ?*

Awhile back I was talking with the boss...yeah, I know I should be sharpening something, but figured...what the hell...
The exchange went something like:

TreeTarget: We should come up with a pay differential based on temperature...70 and above, straight pay; 70-60, +$5 an hour; 60-50, +10 an hour...and so on, in $5 incriments...which follows one of the rules for employing TreeTarget...TreeTarget no do cold...TreeTarget no do heights...

Boss: LOL*#*@*$*#*@LOL*$*#%@*LOL

Well, the response I received was less than helpful, but quite a bit more jovial than I expected...no raise...

Here comes spring. 
Finally some work...been a long, scraping-by winter, and I know the boss is feeling the cabin fever alot more than I do...different story and character evaluation...stay tuned...
anyway...We line up some jobs, do pretty damned-good, in my opinion, and feel the burn of winter muscles getting back into what they have missed...

Boss seems to gloss over rule number two of the employment of TreeTarget when he forgets ...TreeTarget no do heights...

Pulled a (non-drunk) Hank Wms. Jr. cliff-fall a decade or so back (not quite so high, but high enough to understand the impact that man has upon the ground and vice versa), and now have a problem with heights.........................................not all heights, just the ones "I" feel uncomfortable with. And what are the acceptable heights, you may ask? Well...all I can say about that is...

Anyway, the job was on a roof, two stories up and overhanging a balcony that would not benefit a fall to the rocky and slanted yard below...

...could not do that job--got on the roof, threw a few branches, but eventually...Boss had to get another guy who could gut it out up there on the roof the next day...

...felt like sewage...

Week or so passes...

Boss picks me up this morning..."...should have mentioned...how do you feel about a roof?"

We did the job...


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 30, 2010)

Wow, Did you get over it or are you going to be a climber scared of heights?
Don't take this wrong, just wondering because I don't have that kind of time to hope a guy can do it. 
Jeff


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## treevet (Mar 30, 2010)

Sometimes a gm just has to get up on a reasonable roof or two. It is soooo much easier to just lower down onto the roof instead of that anal speed line stuff that everyone has to film (complicating things even more) because it is such a esoteric and time consuming procedure.

Just lower it down to the ground dog and he tosses it off the roof by the chipper. If his knees are a shakin and he can't get on a reasonable roof, he ain't a groundie that works for me. Time to go stock shelves in the local supermarket.


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## tree md (Mar 30, 2010)

treevet said:


> *Sometimes a gm just has to get up on a reasonable roof or two. It is soooo much easier to just lower down onto the roof instead of that anal speed line stuff that everyone has to film (complicating things even more) because it is such a esoteric and time consuming procedure.
> *
> Just lower it down to the ground dog and he tosses it off the roof by the chipper. If his knees are a shakin and he can't get on a reasonable roof, he ain't a groundie that works for me. Time to go stock shelves in the local supermarket.



That's the plan for tomorrow here.


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## treemandan (Mar 30, 2010)

treevet said:


> Sometimes a gm just has to get up on a reasonable roof or two. It is soooo much easier to just lower down onto the roof instead of that anal speed line stuff that everyone has to film (complicating things even more) because it is such a esoteric and time consuming procedure.
> 
> Just lower it down to the ground dog and he tosses it off the roof by the chipper. If his knees are a shakin and he can't get on a reasonable roof, he ain't a groundie that works for me. Time to go stock shelves in the local supermarket.



And Bull- freaking -crap to that. Its just not true. 
Are you saying you've never hooked up a speedline? Oh, you don't know what you are missing. Out of every bawss I had that grudgingly griped at me while I was showing the guys how to use it and get it set up , they all went " Ok, I am impressed".
I tend to use a basic system which is no more time consuming then straight lowering and way safer than pitching limbs off a roof.


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## treevet (Mar 30, 2010)

treemandan said:


> And Bull- freaking -crap to that. Its just not true.
> Are you saying you've never hooked up a speedline? Oh, you don't know what you are missing. Out of every bawss I had that grudgingly griped at me while I was showing the guys how to use it and get it set up , they all went " Ok, I am impressed".
> I tend to use a basic system which is no more time consuming then straight lowering and way safer than pitching limbs off a roof.


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## treemandan (Mar 30, 2010)

treevet said:


>



Don't be like that. Once you see how it works there can be no more denying. Those who know know and that's all I am going to say.


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## treevet (Mar 30, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Don't be like that. Once you see how it works there can be no more denying. Those who know know and that's all I am going to say.



I guarantee I have put in wayyyy more speedlines than you have but then again I have been in the biz wayyy longer than you have.

Most of the time it is easier to just lower it down to a safe to walk on roof.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2010)

treevet said:


> I guarantee I have put in wayyyy more speedlines than you have but then again I have been in the biz wayyy longer than you have.
> 
> Most of the time it is easier to just lower it down to a safe to walk on roof.



Yeah and sometimes a suitable anchor is not there, my rule is if it takes more that 30 minutes to set it up I lower. I will use one if I believe it will be more efficient and safe but if not I lower.


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## treemandan (Mar 30, 2010)

treevet said:


> I guarantee I have put in wayyyy more speedlines than you have but then again I have been in the biz wayyy longer than you have.
> 
> Most of the time it is easier to just lower it down to a safe to walk on roof.



Then what do you find so esoteric and time consuming about it? Hey, I understand some more involved set ups can be , uhm, more involved but really it shouldn't take long.
One thing that might add time to set-up is when the groundies have no concept or iniatiative to do it.


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## tree md (Mar 30, 2010)

There is no good anchor for the tree I am doing tomorrow. Plus I would only have a tight area to zip the limbs down. High winds and close to power lines. I am opting to lower them on the roof, on the opposite side of the tree from the power lines. I have used them before too and they work great in a lot of situations. I have worked with guys who have set up complicated rigs using a porty and figure 8 to lower limbs in a controlled fashion. Sometimes they work awesome and sometimes it makes more sense to just lower the limbs. Tomorrow's job is the latter scenario.


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## treevet (Mar 30, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Hey, I understand some more involved set ups can be , uhm, more involved but really it shouldn't take long.



sometimes they cannot be set up or are too time consuming and often they are not the more functional of the two choices. Read the above post.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2010)

tree md said:


> There is no good anchor for the tree I am doing tomorrow. Plus I would only have a tight area to zip the limbs down. High winds and close to power lines. I am opting to lower them on the roof, on the opposite side of the tree from the power lines. I have used them before too and they work great in a lot of situations. I have worked with guys who have set up complicated rigs using a porty and figure 8 to lower limbs in a controlled fashion. Sometimes they work awesome and sometimes it makes more sense to just lower the limbs. Tomorrow's job is the latter scenario.



Yup man in the tree knows what will and wont work, I was wondering on your tree. I sometimes tie a second rope a few feet up my lowering rope as a tag then when its coming down groundie can pull it clear as I usually lower to him from the tree any more.


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## tree md (Mar 30, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup man in the tree knows what will and wont work, I was wondering on your tree. I sometimes tie a second rope a few feet up my lowering rope as a tag then when its coming down groundie can pull it clear as I usually lower to him from the tree any more.



Yup, saw Treebot do just that on a tree we did a couple years ago. Worked great!


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## tree md (Mar 30, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup man in the tree knows what will and wont work, I was wondering on your tree. I sometimes tie a second rope a few feet up my lowering rope as a tag then when its coming down groundie can pull it clear as I usually lower to him from the tree any more.



Oh, I gotcha, I was thinking you were talking about using a secondary line on a speed line to control the lowering.

I'm sure we will be using a tag line on a few limbs tomorrow. We have 15-25 MPH winds predicted. I need to orient myself to which way the wind is blowing when I get to the job. If the wind is blowing towards the lines you better believe all limbs will be tag lined. If it is blowing in the opposite direction (like I hope) maybe not so much. It all depends on what the wind is doing.

The good thing is I have a great natural crotch to lower half of the top right onto the roof. In pieces of course...


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## treevet (Mar 31, 2010)

tree md said:


> Oh, I gotcha, I was thinking you were talking about using a secondary line on a speed line to control the lowering.
> 
> I'm sure we will be using a tag line on a few limbs tomorrow. We have 15-25 MPH winds predicted. I need to orient myself to which way the wind is blowing when I get to the job. If the wind is blowing towards the lines you better believe all limbs will be tag lined. If it is blowing in the opposite direction (like I hope) maybe not so much. It all depends on what the wind is doing.
> 
> The good thing is I have a great natural crotch to lower half of the top right onto the roof. In pieces of course...



Good luck man, sounds like you got it covered.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 31, 2010)

tree md said:


> Oh, I gotcha, I was thinking you were talking about using a secondary line on a speed line to control the lowering.
> 
> I'm sure we will be using a tag line on a few limbs tomorrow. We have 15-25 MPH winds predicted. I need to orient myself to which way the wind is blowing when I get to the job. If the wind is blowing towards the lines you better believe all limbs will be tag lined. If it is blowing in the opposite direction (like I hope) maybe not so much. It all depends on what the wind is doing.
> 
> The good thing is I have a great natural crotch to lower half of the top right onto the roof. In pieces of course...



Be careful t md and get some pics brother


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## tree md (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks man. 

Hey Rope, when old Quinn was down here I put him on a job where he set up a zip line where they had to lower over something (can't remember what) then drop the line real quick before they hit something else. I was working on my own job and only showed up at the end to help him and his guys finish up. He had a porty rigged for the main zip line where the groundie could drop the limb right where it needed to go and he ran the tag line with a figure 8 for a friction device. It was a pretty slick setup with lots of obstacles. That boy has got some tricks up his sleeve when it comes to rigging. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Wow, Did you get over it or are you going to be a climber scared of heights?
> Don't take this wrong, just wondering because I don't have that kind of time to hope a guy can do it.
> Jeff



...well, got up on a roof today, so working on it...but understand the need for reliability.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Then what do you find so esoteric and time consuming about it? Hey, I understand some more involved set ups can be , uhm, more involved but really it shouldn't take long.
> One thing that might add time to set-up is when the groundies have no concept or iniatiative to do it.



Concept, no...I have various skills, abilities and qualifications...but when it comes to safely lowering weight from on high, I am yes...a "groundie," and have no clue...but am more than willing to see the endeavor through. Never doubt the resolve...only the lack of information...

Not to chide, but...do you know enough to assist in my endeavors? Be patient, and you may see some value in the protests of those with a different perspective...however you would like to interpret that...
Sum o that ther lernin's we got in the skull frum erli on maa not seem fancy-butt we durn shur member wat we was shone sow fur.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> One thing that might add time to set-up is when the groundies have no concept or iniatiative to do it.



That there is the issue. Having a groundie, or better yet a climber on the ground, that has experience with zip lines is the key. How much time did we spend on our zip line, Dano? Maybe 5 minutes to set up? All of which you did as I was running up the tree so essentially no time was lost at all. I've seen some pretty elaborate setups that seemed a waste of time. All you really need is a good running line and a few loopies and biners. Provided you have a good landing zone a zip line is a cinch; it's quick to set up, super efficient and WAY more professional than letting a shaky-kneed groundie clamber around on the HO's roof.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 31, 2010)

It's also worth noting that HO's always get all wide eyed with wonder at a properly executed zip line. All smiles with checkbook in hand when you get down. Don't know 'bout you guys but I like that in an HO.


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## treevet (Mar 31, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> It's also worth noting that HO's always get all wide eyed with wonder at a properly executed zip line. .



So do tree guys. They are over rated when compared to just giving it to a skilled gm on the roof most of the time. 

Speed lines have their place but, like you said, on forums tree guys go all gah gah, along with PPE, spouting speed line rhetoric when it comes to perceiving themselves as being head and shoulders above the crowd.


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

treevet said:


> So do tree guys. They are over rated when compared to just giving it to a skilled gm on the roof most of the time.
> 
> Speed lines have their place but, like you said, on forums tree guys go all gah gah, along with PPE, spouting speed line rhetoric when it comes to perceiving themselves as being head and shoulders above the crowd.



I hear what you are saying and will say no more about it except that in many situations where setting up a SL would have been beneficial the guys seemed to rather break their asses off and fight it every step of the way for me. I am glad you are not one of those stubborn sods but I have to also tell ya I haven't seen to many people I would trust working on a roof. And personally I would rather avoid a roof entirely. Sometimes ( well it seems like always) you have to make it easy for them. They will appreciate it... for a few seconds so don't turn around to fast.
A few have stuck with me and found the glory it beholds.


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

But anyway, Treetarget, this is your post and we have to figure out if you are full of crap or not still I think. I am dwelling on what you have said and will get back to you shortly as I never like to leave a man hanging... for too long


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

One last note before I get back to making chains and drinking beer so cold it will crack yer teeth:

I will SHOW you how to do that there speedline, yessir, I will.


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## tree md (Mar 31, 2010)

Man, I really love beer so cold it'll crack yer teeth... Having to lay off right now.


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> That there is the issue. Having a groundie, or better yet a climber on the ground, that has experience with zip lines is the key. How much time did we spend on our zip line, Dano? Maybe 5 minutes to set up? All of which you did as I was running up the tree so essentially no time was lost at all. I've seen some pretty elaborate setups that seemed a waste of time. All you really need is a good running line and a few loopies and biners. Provided you have a good landing zone a zip line is a cinch; it's quick to set up, super efficient and WAY more professional than letting a shaky-kneed groundie clamber around on the HO's roof.





That was a peach yes? Whose idea was it? I think you. Wouldn't want to lower out of that thing would ya?


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> But anyway, Treetarget, this is your post and we have to figure out if you are full of crap or not still I think. I am dwelling on what you have said and will get back to you shortly as I never like to leave a man hanging... for too long



Cannot deny that I am full of something, but whatever it is, it hasn't turned completely to crap...yet.
Like I said, I have been trying...actually worked on a roof the other day, and YES, even told the boss I wouldn't mind learning "the ropes," if he is willing to teach climbing.

Hey there...no where near a pro, and yes sometimes get weak in the knees, but if my fear of heights (that I am working on) is the worst of my problems, then I think I'm doing pretty good so far. Believe me, I have known the boss for 20 years, and if I wasn't worth his time, he sure isn't one to tip-toe around letting me know. He's also right there to tell me when something that was taught to me years ago is coming from that bag-o-crap he considers unsafe and/or unacceptable...haven't had alot of those moments, as it is his business, not mine...He can take the lead, because I have alot to learn AND because I enjoy my work.

Especially today...but that's another story...

Looking forward to tomorrow...

Can't wait to see that speed line...we talk about it, but I haven't seen it yet...


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Cannot deny that I am full of something, but whatever it is, it hasn't turned completely to crap...yet.
> Like I said, I have been trying...actually worked on a roof the other day, and YES, even told the boss I wouldn't mind learning "the ropes," if he is willing to teach climbing.
> 
> Hey there...no where near a pro, and yes sometimes get weak in the knees, but if my fear of heights (that I am working on) is the worst of my problems, then I think I'm doing pretty good so far. Believe me, I have known the boss for 20 years, and if I wasn't worth his time, he sure isn't one to tip-toe around letting me know. He's also right there to tell me when something that was taught to me years ago is coming from that bag-o-crap he considers unsafe and/or unacceptable...haven't had alot of those moments, as it is his business, not mine...He can take the lead, because I have alot to learn AND because I enjoy my work.
> ...



I am going to have to sober up a little before we can talk but I will leave you with this: Its not the fall that kills ya.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> That was a peach yes? Whose idea was it? I think you. Wouldn't want to lower out of that thing would ya?



I think me indeed. And nosiree I wasn't keen on lowering out that tree. Didn't you like how the zip line set the butts nice and respectfully in a pile facing the chipper and you needn't drag one piece of brush? That tree could not have been done better than we did it that day. Without a crane that is...


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## tree md (Mar 31, 2010)

I think everyone experiences a little vertigo when they first start working at heights. Just natural instinct. Most guys who make it as climbers overcome it pretty quickly. Example, you see the new guy with sewing machine legs on his first couple/few trees, by the end of the week there is no more shaking legs and he is giving a rebel yell after he tops his first tree.

Some guys go up their first tree and say #### this! Lol, I've had to spend over an hour talking one down before. No shame in it. Everyone needs groundmen too. Personally, tight spots get me. I am perfectly happy in the top of a tree but put me under a house in a crawl space and I freak!


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> I think me indeed. And nosiree I wasn't keen on lowering out that tree. Didn't you like how the zip line set the butts nice and respectfully in a pile facing the chipper and you needn't drag one piece of brush? That tree could not have been done better than we did it that day. Without a crane that is...



Well for two guys taking down a hazzard poplar...

I do a lot of sub work and the bawss will come around and complain that all the guys are standing around quietly watching me get set up. I say " they are getting used to me, its a prerequisite". 
But they are made to go elsewheres and by the time they get back they are just as clueless.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I am going to have to sober up a little before we can talk but I will leave you with this: Its not the fall that kills ya.



I know that for a fact...and I remember the "fall" quite well. If there is one moment from that day, I can say that I was most alive, aware and can remember details and almost taste the air as it was...it was in that moment or so.

I never have a problem with the falling part...it is ALWAYS the failing to miss the ground part that bugs me...I have failed at so many things throughout the ages...death (working on that one), taxes, beating the system, being on the right side of affirmative action, quitting smoking, not looking at other women, utilizing my potential...

Why not this? A simple thing to accomplish...I can shoot ANY gun and miss the target...what is so special about the ground...?


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> I know that for a fact...and I remember the "fall" quite well. If there is one moment from that day, I can say that I was most alive, aware and can remember details and almost taste the air as it was...it was in that moment or so.
> 
> I never have a problem with the falling part...it is ALWAYS the failing to miss the ground part that bugs me...I have failed at so many things throughout the ages...death (working on that one), taxes, beating the system, being on the right side of affirmative action, quitting smoking, not looking at other women, utilizing my potential...
> 
> Why not this? A simple thing to accomplish...I can shoot ANY gun and miss the target...what is so special about the ground...?



When some time crunching bawss has you up on the roof huckin limbs over the side on a hot Missouri July at 4:45 on a friday afternoon and one of those limbs that you just used all your might to huck hooks onto your shirt and takes you with it...
Well the bawss is justified, he has WC.


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## treemandan (Mar 31, 2010)

Real good call on that poplar Blakes. Thanks.


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> When some time crunching bawss has you up on the roof huckin limbs over the side on a hot Missouri July at 4:45 on a friday afternoon and one of those limbs that you just used all your might to huck hooks onto your shirt and takes you with it...
> Well the bawss is justified, he has WC.



Hey there.....I'm no time crunching bawss. And by 4:45 on a hot july friday afternoon if the job isn't done, then the site is clean and we're gone. And none of the small limbs tossed (no hucking necessary) from the rooftop were big enough to require full use of might. And they were all cut FROM the rooftop, not lowered down to it. 

But the justified part....hmmmm....maybe not....cause I have no WC.


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

treemandan said:


> When some time crunching bawss has you up on the roof huckin limbs over the side on a hot Missouri July at 4:45 on a friday afternoon and one of those limbs that you just used all your might to huck hooks onto your shirt and takes you with it...
> Well the bawss is justified, he has WC.



sho nuff...
well, thank you mr. nuff


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

There was nothing dangerous about the limbs, the way they were lowered, or the way they were ejected from the area...the problem was mine...heights...

I know that snags and jerks and a million other things are going, could, will, are, might happen...I may get alot of work done, or not...but there is a reason I move slow and still live. Paying attention is alot of what I am paid for...

Besides, I am independently wealthy (working on that), don't have to work but enjoy the feeling of a hard day when I lay down at night, and "I" tell the boss what I will be paid for the day...well, not today since...again, another story...


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 31, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> There was nothing dangerous about the limbs, the way they were lowered, or the way they were ejected from the area...the problem was mine...heights...
> 
> I know that snags and jerks and a million other things are going, could, will, are, might happen...I may get alot of work done, or not...but there is a reason I move slow and still live. Paying attention is alot of what I am paid for...
> 
> Besides, I am independently wealthy (working on that), don't have to work but enjoy the feeling of a hard day when I lay down at night, and "I" tell the boss what I will be paid for the day...well, not today since...again, another story...



I am afraid of flying! I am not ever getting on a plane, so I know what you are saying. 
Jeff


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am afraid of flying! I am not ever getting on a plane, so I know what you are saying.
> Jeff



I am not afraid to fly...not afraid to learn tree climbing (professionally), and not afraid of alot of things dealing with heights...
...it's just the feeling of being unsupported when on high and there is alot of ground below the slope I am on...

Can't explain...just happens at certain times...

Been up in a bucket, no problem...been in planes and love to fly...roofs and cliffs and shaky things...problem so far...

Someone on AA gets a reprieve...falling off a cliff should suffice for me...


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 31, 2010)

When in a bucket or a plane, I always wonder the mechanics and kinda freak. Nothing like being in control for me. But, I get it,
Jeff


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## TreeTarget (Mar 31, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> When in a bucket or a plane, I always wonder the mechanics and kinda freak. Nothing like being in control for me. But, I get it,
> Jeff



See, I don't think about the mechanical so much, it is the security of something around or touching me that can totally obliviate any fear or nervousness I have...might do good at skydiving.


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## EdenT (Apr 1, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> See, I don't think about the mechanical so much, it is the security of something around or touching me that can totally obliviate any fear or nervousness I have...might do good at skydiving.



I wouldn't try learning to climb if you need that security. There are times when you have to do stuff in a tree that makes the caveman bit of your brain scream in fear. If you take any notice of it, which most tree climbers don't, then you will freeze and need to be rescued. There is nothing to be ashamed of being a good GM. In fact my GM is getting to be real good. Yesterday I took him and his lady out to dinner just to say thanks for the excellent work he has been doing. It makes my life so much easier knowing the ground is in good hands.


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## EdenT (Apr 1, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am afraid of flying! I am not ever getting on a plane, so I know what you are saying.
> Jeff



Still getting around in the old longboat Jeff?


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## TreeTarget (Apr 2, 2010)

This was a solid week...Finished rearranging the shop & rewired the band saw, finished the chairs (still working on the seats), worked the ground all week, got fed numerous times, heard my son is showing his flirting skills--he's 8 so fun times ahead, and Really enjoyed Zombie Land.
Next week promises to be just as busy, so hope the weekend lends alot of limberness back to the bones.


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## Saddlesoar (Apr 2, 2010)

*Groundsman*

A great groundsman is one of a climbers best attributes. How run a porta wrap,set a block,when to let it run,sharpen a saw,treat customers properly,the list is endless (what you put in is what you get out). And all of this without explaining over and over.
Take care of them and pay them well.


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## treemandan (Apr 2, 2010)

By the way gentlemen:
Yesterday I worked with this guy, he wanted this ash hammered back a little. He said I could just cut and hold the tips. They were not big but it was over three spruce and a little tiny high voltage wire.
I just zipped the little twigs down laterally while he held tension on the line through a crotch of a dogwood.
The ole' cut and hold technique, that's for suckers. It even says so on my ins policy... verbatum. If they find out I tried some crap like that they wouldn't pay.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 2, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


> Last week he timed a drop perfectly as the dead tulip poplar limb swung out from over the house and into the yard and landed exactly where I wanted it.



I get so pissed when trying to explain dropping limbs in the fashion you mentioned.And they end up crashing the limb into something instead of letting it go when at the maxum of the initial swing.

Had that happen a few weeks ago, and a big limb that should have landed nice and pretty in the open yard ,instead he let it run a bit then tightend up on it again,only to drag it into a little crepe myrtle I was using the rope to avoid in the first place.
Told him'' WTF,I could have done that in a lot less time without the rope''


I'm with ole ropensaddle .Anymore I find it easier to just run the limb line myself from the tree,and just let them untie and drag it out of the way.


To all the groundies who pay attention and use their heads.
Makes climbing so much easier.


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## treevet (Apr 2, 2010)

treemandan said:


> By the way gentlemen:
> Yesterday I worked with this guy, he wanted this ash hammered back a little. He said I could just cut and hold the tips. They were not big but it was over three spruce and a little tiny high voltage wire.
> I just zipped the little twigs down laterally while he held tension on the line through a crotch of a dogwood.
> The ole' cut and hold technique, that's for suckers. It even says so on my ins policy... verbatum. If they find out I tried some crap like that they wouldn't pay.



good job treemandan. that'll make for a good night's sleep tonight after reading a little Kafka in the ole fartsack. (just messin w ya)


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## treemandan (Apr 2, 2010)

treevet said:


> good job treemandan. that'll make for a good night's sleep tonight after reading a little Kafka in the ole fartsack. (just messin w ya)



That guy can put me to sleep rather quick sometimes too but I haven't read all that many of his books.


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## treevet (Apr 2, 2010)

treemandan said:


> That guy can put me to sleep rather quick sometimes too but I haven't read all that many of his books.



I read one too Dan. What a yawner.


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## treemandan (Apr 2, 2010)

Its taken close to 20 years but I think I am begiining to figure this stuff out:

When they say " can't you just cut and hold it?" They actually mean " Since I break my ass and hold on by a wing and a prayer why shouldn't you?"

When they say, " Your good but I am quicker" They actually mean, " I freeclimb and hook every tree I climb... and cut and hold everything too... I fell out a few times... broke my jaw... and my eye socket."

When they say " What do you have tied on? " They actually mean , " I am just guessing at this stuff, I really have no idea, you have do my thinking for me. "

These are just a few questions and such I keep hearing and now have figured out how to answer all of them with one phrase which is, " #### and grab that rope!"


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## TreeTarget (Apr 2, 2010)

The boss and I watched a cut-and-hold guy in the bucket today...both of us were cringing at the cut he made--almost like a backhand tennis swing, not more than 3 inches from his armpit.
Never have to guess what is wanted, as everything is pretty much gone over before we start, and set up pretty well as decided on...sometimes (alot of times) things change, but the communication is there, so usually no problems.
Maybe it helps to work with someone you've known for a long time.


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## a_lopa (Apr 2, 2010)

The best ground guys are 23-30 years old new to trees and keen to learn.


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## TreeTarget (Apr 3, 2010)

a_lopa said:


> The best ground guys are 23-30 years old new to trees and keen to learn.



Now that makes a guy feel good...Can't say I work circles around anyone, but I keep pluggin' along. Kinda helps being older, too...the realization of mortality and limits lends a bit more awareness to the situation...

...well, not today; had to do a sprint out of an area real quick. Got complimented on the reflexes, which didn't do so much for the "[email protected]#$ feeling. Better than feeling dead, though.


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Now that makes a guy feel good...Can't say I work circles around anyone, but I keep pluggin' along. Kinda helps being older, too...the realization of mortality and limits lends a bit more awareness to the situation...
> 
> ...well, not today; had to do a sprint out of an area real quick. Got complimented on the reflexes, which didn't do so much for the "[email protected]#$ feeling. Better than feeling dead, though.



you saying you almost got killed by a limb that was dropped?


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## TreeTarget (Apr 3, 2010)

treevet said:


> you saying you almost got killed by a limb that was dropped?



Almost, would imply the limb actually fell...it didn't, I just should not have been there anyway. Hopefully, I'll let you know when the 'almost' ever comes around, but trying to stay away from that discussion.


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Almost, would imply the limb actually fell...it didn't, I just should not have been there anyway. Hopefully, I'll let you know when the 'almost' ever comes around, but trying to stay away from that discussion.



You wandered into the drop (sometimes called the kill zone) zone and got chewed out I assume. Make eye contact with your climber and get him to give you an all clear after you request to enter.


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## TreeTarget (Apr 3, 2010)

treevet said:


> You wandered into the drop (sometimes called the kill zone) zone and got chewed out I assume. Make eye contact with your climber and get him to give you an all clear after you request to enter.



Yes, walked into the zone...no chewing, just a head's up shout. Hard situation with vines and hang-ups. No excuses...caught being distracted by the cold wind and rain...


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> Yes, walked into the zone...no chewing, just a head's up shout. Hard situation with vines and hang-ups. No excuses...caught being distracted by the cold wind and rain...



A climber left me a few years back to go on his own. Within a couple of weeks he dropped a chunk on a groundy (from a pine) and cracked his skull.


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 3, 2010)

treevet said:


> A climber left me a few years back to go on his own. Within a couple of weeks he dropped a chunk on a groundy (from a pine) and cracked his skull.



Debbie downer, can;t you have a good ending?
Jeff


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

guess I could make something up just for you Jeff, instead of trying to help Treetarget to be aware and not suffer consequences.


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 3, 2010)

It's all good, 
Jeff


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## tree md (Apr 3, 2010)

Here's what I tell the guys that work the ground for me...

The idea is to be smarter than the log you are trying to work with...


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

You always are gonna get the ones that want to put their heads down and barrel in there and make you wait to make a cut tho. I fired one that kept doing that to me and ended up with a scar on my left thumb having to grab the branch and hitting it with my thumb to save his ass.


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## tree md (Apr 3, 2010)

My guys know to ask me if they can clean up. I generally tell them that as long as the saw is not running they can move but when I say stand clear that means stand clear. I will usually take a break every now and then to let them get cleaned up if I am burying them. And I always let them get caught up before I drop chunks on brush. Just makes the ground work go quicker it they don't have to move logs off of brush to cut. Might keep me in the tree a little longer but it makes the overall operation go faster I think. I just take a comfy perch and watch them work for a change.


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

Sometimes too, esp in a bucket, you can work one side while they safely work the other side after you have moved (especially in a large spread tree). Sycamore we worked last week had about a 160 foot canopy spread. You could hardly hear each other talking from gm to me it was so far..


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## tree md (Apr 3, 2010)

Wow, that's a heck of a Sycamore! Is that the one you were going to try to get some footage of? Would love to see that tree.


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## TreeTarget (Apr 3, 2010)

I think that was the point of this...as I rounded the front of and passed by the engine of the bucket-truck, I didn't hear the chainsaw motor going...should have said that up front. Still, no excuses...


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

tree md said:


> Wow, that's a heck of a Sycamore! Is that the one you were going to try to get some footage of? Would love to see that tree.



I got some mediocre picts on my compact but next week I have to take a few with my slr for tree of the year award for our town. I will put some up then. There is a tree in the next yard just as big we are doing after the ho files his tax return 4/15. I have had my Teco which is 70 foot plus my reach of 8 feet or so that is a little over half way up both trees. There are quite a few Tuliptrees taller than that around here and a few oaks in that range and even a few pignut hickories. Lots of the big boys have gone down in storms lately tho.

The big sycies are mostly around the creek beds.


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2010)

You said they don't get real big in your area MD but they are usually the biggest tree in eastern states. I worked on one in NJ that was the biggest one in that county and I think the biggest tree in the state was a sycamore. They are also called buttonballs and right now the balls are breaking up all over the streets and gagging me up and alot of others from allergies.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/nature_sketches/93314


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## tree md (Apr 3, 2010)

Good article.

Yeah, from what I have read, the Sycamores are the biggest Eastern tree as far as mass. Tulip Poplar do get taller they say but don't have the same mass as the big Sycamores. I'd say that they are our largest tree around here as well. I have yet to see a Tulip Tree here.

I'd venture that we have some Sycamores and Cottonwoods approaching 100' around here. Mostly in the river bottoms. I'm sure there are a few taller trees in the state but generally speaking, we have a low canopy compared to other parts of the country. We still get some pretty massive, sprawling trees but they just don't generally reach the heights of trees in most other parts of the country.

I'd say the tallest tree I have ever worked in was a Tulip Poplar that was right at 120' (we pulled a tape on it). But that was back in GA


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## TreeTarget (Apr 3, 2010)

I think the biggest tree I ever worked on (height wise) was a sycamore in Wisconsin. The boss up there refused to take out a tree, not a sycamore, that was more than 6 feet in diametre. Never seen a tree with that big of a circumference this side of the Rockies...but I don't get around much. The sycamore we trimmed and vacated of ice damage the other day was nice, but nowhere as large as I have seen them (more asthetically pleasing as symetrical, but not overly tall.


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## TreeTarget (Apr 13, 2010)

Had a change of pace last week...did not have to clean up. Cannot say how much that bugged me, but less work I guess. Back was sore enough after stooping over with the saw all day.
Dealt with a bunch of nasty vines today. No poison ivy, but a mess nonetheless.
See, lotto winning could go both ways...retire, or get all the toys to do the job right, use each one once...and then retire. Tough choice.


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## tree md (Apr 13, 2010)

Yes, I am on the lotto retirement plan as well... 

I had to come down out of the tree and teach some Art and Zen of ground work today... Can't say I was happy about that. Hopefully I got my point across...


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## TreeTarget (Apr 14, 2010)

Boss got out of the tree more than once yesterday...could have kept up, but was busy trimming furniture wood out of the pile. Didn't work out too bad, he knew I was pressed to do both. There was just so much to deal with later, that it didn't matter, and he'd had breakfast, so no guilty feelings. Vines and lack of access proved to be the bigger obsticles.
Great news...more vines tomorrow...


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## TreeTarget (Apr 21, 2010)

Can't say today was a good day, but was definately not a bad one...BIG trailer of brush, almost full trailer of furniture-wood. Boss is gonna move soon, and I am not looking forward to moving all the furniture-wood we have saved. At least 6 loads that I can think of right away...probably alot more than that. Good thing, it will sure be alot lighter after having sat for the drying.


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## TreeTarget (Apr 27, 2010)

Trunk of the beast today was sound...up to two feet, then came the rot...would guess a person could have stood up inside the thing before it was cut, and all of the tree was that way. Made for a pretty easy job...just nasty-slime rot everywhere...and the loss of habitat for and life of critters. Lunch was good, but have to stop eating so much...Damned buffets.


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## vaclimber (Apr 28, 2010)

*rare find*



tree md said:


> I've had some good ones and still do. Some have passed on. My first groundie was in his 40's when I started out in my early 20's. He died young. Had another good one pass on as well. Longtime ex girlfriend's step dad. He was in his 50's when he worked for me and would work from sunup to sundown and never complain. Worked circles around the younger guys. Also, the guy who first put me in a tree used to groundie for me while I climbed. The deal was I still had to do ground work too when I came down though.
> 
> I have never been the type to sit on my ass when the tree is on the ground. LOL, I would say that I still work the hardest on the ground than any of my crew. I like to run the ground operation when I have an apprentice climber too. It's fun teaching someone to climb and as has been mentioned, no one can run the ropes better than a climber. Also, if you are the owner or even the crew chief it is good to spend some time on the ground with your guys. If you're the crew chief or owner, odds are that you have the most experience. It's good to get down with the ground crew and teach them the shortcuts and best way to do things. It's simple arithmetic after you have been doing it for a lot of years but not so to newer guys. Simple things like the natural order of cleanup, how to run a saw, get the truck closer to the brush pile to make shorter trips. All common sense but newer guys still need to be shown the best way. It makes for a better more cohesive team when you take the time to show your guys the shortcuts and let them know that you don't think yourself above ground work. When they see you know how to do it well and there is a reason that you tell them to do things in a certain order they tend to have a lot more respect for you.



Unfortunately, there isn't a surplus of sober, responsible, dedicated, teachable, motivated folk who are seeking employment as a "ground-man." I have a great one(after years of patience and relearning, myself included) who is vital to maximizing efficiency on the job. I believe crew members are an investment that when prov en unwise should be dropped with haste, but when beneficial, should be given all that is needed(and then some) to increase. I pay my guy well and don't take him for granted and his loyalty is priceless. Too many times employers pinch pennies in the labor department and another "mercenary" tree-worker is added to the ranks. After all my life is literally in his hands much of the time.


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## treevet (Apr 28, 2010)

vaclimber said:


> Unfortunately, there isn't a surplus of sober, responsible, dedicated, teachable, motivated folk who are seeking employment as a "ground-man." I have a great one(after years of patience and relearning, myself included) who is vital to maximizing efficiency on the job. I believe crew members are an investment that when prov en unwise should be dropped with haste, but when beneficial, should be given all that is needed(and then some) to increase. I pay my guy well and don't take him for granted and his loyalty is priceless. Too many times employers pinch pennies in the labor department and another "mercenary" tree-worker is added to the ranks. After all my life is literally in his hands much of the time.



I could write a long novel about all the ground men (1 woman) I have had over 41 years from the Jamaican that was 65 and would boggle the mind how hard he could work. He was in the Olympics. Spoke zero English. To the gm that actually lived under a bridge by the Delaware River. Some fascinating memories there.

I would say the best way to keep a good groundman in this day and age besides treating and paying him fairly is 

hand him the keys to a mini skid with a grapple.


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## TreeTarget (Apr 28, 2010)

treevet said:


> I could write a long novel about all the ground men (1 woman) I have had over 41 years from the Jamaican that was 65 and would boggle the mind how hard he could work. He was in the Olympics. Spoke zero English. To the gm that actually lived under a bridge by the Delaware River. Some fascinating memories there.
> 
> I would say the best way to keep a good groundman in this day and age besides treating and paying him fairly is
> 
> hand him the keys to a mini skid with a grapple.



I don't care much for the toys...operated alot of things throughout the past, so equipment doesn't tickle my fancy.
What keeps me around (even if the boss isn't a friend), is a boss that understands that I may not, and that enlightenment to the problem and/or solution doesn't necessitate screaming curses at me from a tree like a pissed off, poo-flinging monkey.
I am a patient person, and sometimes not the quickest learner when it comes to intricate knots and such--especially when those knots, rigs and the like are not used everyday. To be able to communicate and teach with patience is the hallmark of the ideal boss.
I fully understand that frustrations can run high, and sometimes time, labor, weather and a multitude of other factors are going to be buzzing around the boss's mind while he is suspended above the ground. Getting bent out of shape and being an ass will not help the situation, I am sure...and no shiny equipment or afternoon meals or %age increase in wages are going to keep me from walking away.
I like my job...don't need thanks, congrats, "good job..."
Never did like being yelled at or being talked to like a moron, though.
I don't ask for much, 'cause I know there is alot of room for improvement...
But I do give my all...


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## vaclimber (Apr 29, 2010)

*no doubt!*



treevet said:


> I could write a long novel about all the ground men (1 woman) I have had over 41 years from the Jamaican that was 65 and would boggle the mind how hard he could work. He was in the Olympics. Spoke zero English. To the gm that actually lived under a bridge by the Delaware River. Some fascinating memories there.
> 
> I would say the best way to keep a good groundman in this day and age besides treating and paying him fairly is
> 
> hand him the keys to a mini skid with a grapple.



Very true, providing he(or she) can be turf friendly when needed, wont bomb the trucks, maintains it properly, is safe & aware,.....,......,.....I'm all about mechanical advantage, but a good groundsman, to me, contributes beyond areas of debris and manual labor. Hes an artist with the ropes and is constantly looking to make my "air time" as effortless as possible while looking out constantly for any safety issues. But he does love his Bobcat!


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## vaclimber (Apr 29, 2010)

*No place for tempers*



TreeTarget said:


> I don't care much for the toys...operated alot of things throughout the past, so equipment doesn't tickle my fancy.
> What keeps me around (even if the boss isn't a friend), is a boss that understands that I may not, and that enlightenment to the problem and/or solution doesn't necessitate screaming curses at me from a tree like a pissed off, poo-flinging monkey.
> I am a patient person, and sometimes not the quickest learner when it comes to intricate knots and such--especially when those knots, rigs and the like are not used everyday. To be able to communicate and teach with patience is the hallmark of the ideal boss.
> I fully understand that frustrations can run high, and sometimes time, labor, weather and a multitude of other factors are going to be buzzing around the boss's mind while he is suspended above the ground. Getting bent out of shape and being an ass will not help the situation, I am sure...and no shiny equipment or afternoon meals or %age increase in wages are going to keep me from walking away.
> ...



I dig it! Lets solve the problem, not be one.


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## TreeTarget (May 9, 2010)

*Rain week...*

Going to be alot of shop-time going on this week...thunder storms forecast for most every day, so unless there is a break, not going to be alot of work outside.


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## TreeTarget (May 24, 2010)

Worked today...not a big job, just a few 5-8 inch b. pears, a few trims and alot of brush. Wouldn't really call it work, as I limped around singing beach boys songs to keep my mind off the foot.
Boss set me up with a little breakfast before I started, and I think he did alot more work than I did. As luck would have it, trailer was in the front, a gate to go through and about 30-50 yards from the falls in the back yard to the trailer in the front driveway...
Just another normal, uneventful, easy day with no surprises...Funny how a bum ankle can paint a whole new picture of the same old grind. Sitting now with foot and calf in a 5 gallon bucket of epsom salt-water and self medicating with advil and negra modelo (no, not a colourful hottie, a Mexican beer). We will see what tomorrow brings, but can honestly say, am not looking forward to it where this foot is concerned. Told the boss I may not be able to pull it off tomorrow, but who knows...at least the weather was close to perfect today, 87 degrees and 60% humidity...can't wait 'till summer.


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## IcePick (May 24, 2010)

TreeTarget said:


> the weather was close to perfect today, 87 degrees and 60% humidity...can't wait 'till summer.



87 degrees to me is 20 degrees too warm. Don't get me wrong it gets hot and humid up here (87 degrees today), but I wouldn't do well down south.


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## TreeTarget (May 24, 2010)

IcePick said:


> 87 degrees to me is 20 degrees too warm. Don't get me wrong it gets hot and humid up here (87 degrees today), but I wouldn't do well down south.




That's what the boss says...can't understand why that eskimo is even down this far...and this is just the upper south...would never see him living any farther...


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## TreeTarget (Sep 14, 2010)

Been away for a bit, but still around. Haven't been working much on the ground--guess people are still stricken by last month's heat wave, so have been spending alot of time in the shop, studying stuff, trying out that and other stuff, and hoping to somehow turn it into something others want to hand over cash in order to make it their stuff. Been learning alot of new techniques and applications. Mainly, what I seem to be learning is that I don't have enough money for what I now know. Should have kept the bliss of ignorance and stuck with the duh...no turning back now I guess.


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## ForTheArborist (Sep 14, 2010)

I just hired a new groundman. He was the best one I found so far - quick learner, always a step ahead of me, doesn't BS too much, really good worker. I went home after his first day thinking how good this worker is, and then I get a letter from him saying he doesn't think he is cut out for tree work. I wrote him back two big letters painting the picture so bright and clean, and I offered him a $2 raise if he sticks for 10 more work days. I knew after all the other guys I've hired that this guy was good for business, and I would have been kicking my own butt for a long time for letting him get away. The right players right now make a lot of difference.

Another thing about him is he owns a hauling/demo business that he does part time, so he's on the same page as a self-motivated worker.


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## tree MDS (Sep 14, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I just hired a new groundman. He was the best one I found so far - quick learner, always a step ahead of me, doesn't BS too much, really good worker. I went home after his first day thinking how good this worker is, and then I get a letter from him saying he doesn't think he is cut out for tree work. I wrote him back two big letters painting the picture so bright and clean, and I offered him a $2 raise if he sticks for 10 more work days. I knew after all the other guys I've hired that this guy was good for business, and I would have been kicking my own butt for a long time for letting him get away. The right players right now make a lot of difference.
> 
> Another thing about him is he owns a hauling/demo business that he does part time, so he's on the same page as a self-motivated worker.



I can't say I blame him.. beginner style treework sucks the big one.


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## treevet (Sep 14, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I just hired a new groundman. He was the best one I found so far - quick learner, always a step ahead of me, doesn't BS too much, really good worker. I went home after his first day thinking how good this worker is, and then I get a letter from him saying he doesn't think he is cut out for tree work. I wrote him back two big letters painting the picture so bright and clean, and I offered him a $2 raise if he sticks for 10 more work days. I knew after all the other guys I've hired that this guy was good for business, and I would have been kicking my own butt for a long time for letting him get away. The right players right now make a lot of difference.
> 
> Another thing about him is he owns a hauling/demo business that he does part time, so he's on the same page as a self-motivated worker.



The problem likely is that he has his own gig and 2 bucks an hr. prob ain't gonna get it. Often they don't think what they can make when they are slow but rather just think about all the bucks they are making when busy. 

Hard to work for someone else when you had your own thing. Only person I have worked for in last 42 years is Uncle Sammy for 2.


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## TreeTarget (Sep 15, 2010)

Can't say what I like more, working in the shop or on the ground. Two bucks more an hour would help, but if the other things pay off enough, I would be hard pressed to want to get out more than twice a week. Right now, I don't have to worry, as it is still slow, so the shop gets all my time. Creativity and actual production is great. But, being more into ground work due to the fresh air and activity...would be a tough choice, if there were enough work.


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## TreeTarget (Sep 21, 2010)

Was cutting up a big, dead oak yesterday. Had a pulled muscle in my back, so was really happy to have been toting no more than the boss's 346 for the job. Had a bobcat on site, and no cleanup other than the bc moving all the limbs and firewood/trunk cookies.
The other gm is working today, so going to do the shop thing after mowing. Might actually get all the pewter formed today for the mirror.


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## TreeTarget (Sep 30, 2010)

Sore, tired and three days off...


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## TreeTarget (Oct 13, 2010)

Worked in the shop today since I was up most of the night with the boy...he doesn't even remember being awake or sick...work tomorrow


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## TonyX3M (Oct 14, 2010)

*Here's one for you climbers!*

I started as a groundman- my father-in-law thought that it was a good way for a payback (I'll show for that darn foreigner how REAL men work) - long story short - after six months I had to start climbing 'cause after I was done on the ground I asked him not to go home- hell I needed the money( most of the ground crew is always under-payed) so I went up a tree, took it down, chipped the brush and cleaned up... I still can't understand climbers who think that ground job is like no-no for them- get your head out of your arse and don't think you are something special -if you are a real treeman you do it all -and dont think that working on the ground is degrading for you!
As of finding good and real groundman - I know it is hard -I'm almost in worst position of all - my groundy is my boss- and it aint easy, although hes getting pretty decent- exept I always get an "good" advice how to do things ....


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## treeslayer (Oct 14, 2010)

TonyX3M said:


> I still can't understand climbers who think that ground job is like no-no for them- get your head out of your arse and don't think you are something special -if you are a real treeman you do it all -and dont think that working on the ground is degrading for you!



real treemen want to make $$  not labor needlessly. get your head out of your own arse and own a business, you'll figure that out quick.

climbers climbing to make $$ is the bottom line.


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## TonyX3M (Oct 15, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> real treemen want to make $$  not labor needlessly. get your head out of your own arse and own a business, you'll figure that out quick.
> 
> climbers climbing to make $$ is the bottom line.


And I was thinking we all do it just for fun!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## TreeTarget (Oct 17, 2010)

I like doing the ground work...but never considered it fun.


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## TreeTarget (Jan 1, 2011)

*Long, cold, slow winter...*

Keep meaning to get on here and update, add to and put up some pictures...but spend too much time in the shop and trying to keep the brat occupied. Work outside is slow, and not really fun in the cold, so am keeping busy studying and trying to build an inventory. Will have pics of the furniture and carvings up soon, but still have to resize. Happy New Year...


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