# Grind with the grain???



## ladderslug (Jul 13, 2010)

Is there a preferred direction of grinding a stump? Is there a grain or a softer side or something? It seems that all of the sides of a stump would be equally dense. I have heard of "grinding with the grain" but I can't seem to find it.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 14, 2010)

It's easier to grind the from the outside of the stump toward the middle than from the middle to the outside. The second way, you tend to cut across the fibres more. On larger stumps, I find it easier to grind from 2 or more sides towards the middle than right across the stump. But thats me, with the machine I use. Others will have different experience and opinions.

When I have to grind surface roots, especially large ones like flowering cherries, I like to grind across the grain rather than with it.


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## ladderslug (Jul 15, 2010)

*Thanks*

Thanks for the info.


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## arbor pro (Jul 16, 2010)

ladderslug said:


> Is there a preferred direction of grinding a stump? Is there a grain or a softer side or something? It seems that all of the sides of a stump would be equally dense. I have heard of "grinding with the grain" but I can't seem to find it.



I think it depends on the teeth you're using and how sharp they are. When my greenteeth have a good edge on them (not necessarily new edge, just good), I can grind just about any direction on the stump without a real notable difference. When I grind runner roots with the grain, the teeth sometimes tend to 'overbite' but generally, those don't make much of a difference either.

I did notice a difference when using the older vermeer straight teeth. those were junk compared to the greenteeth I use now.

If you aren't using yellowjacket, greenteeth or sandvik teeth, I'd suggest looking into them. It costs some money to make the conversion to a new setup but, in the long run, they will be far more productive than the rayco super or vermeer old-style teeth.


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## Mowingman (Jul 16, 2010)

I grind whatever direction is easiest to set up on the stump, and whatever direction will take the least moves of the machine to complete the job.
I do not think the grain makes any difference at all, if you have plenty of HP on your machine.
Jeff


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## coolbrze (Jul 17, 2010)

Mowingman said:


> I grind whatever direction is easiest to set up on the stump, and whatever direction will take the least moves of the machine to complete the job.



I'll 2nd that. We stump in a lot of relatively tight areas and sometimes you only have 1 angle to approach the stump.


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## Plyscamp (Jul 18, 2010)

The grain in a stump runs from horizontal in the root to vertical in the tree trunk. Knowing that, think about whittling a stick with a knife when you were a kid. If you sliced the stick lengthwise (with the grain) you could pull off big chips real easy. If you tried to cut across the stick ( cross grain )it was very difficult. The sweet spot as some call it is nothing more than cutting with the grain.

When you start to grind a stump start about 12" in front of the stump and grind down in the dirt so you can grind through the stump (with the grain) instead of starting on top of the stump grinding cross grain. Just like your whittling knife you will pull nice long chips with less effort. If you have a low power unit it will become a little more difficult on the back side of the stump as the grain is changing from vertical to horizontal and forcing you to again cut cross grain. If space allows you can move to the other side of the stump and it will cut easier. I hope this explanation makes sense. Good grinding to all and to all a goodnight.


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## NCgrinder (Jul 24, 2010)

I generally do the same as Plyscamp,in starting about 10/12" in front and grinding down...Then ,I raise the wheel back up,grind all the way across and all the way down..If it's a large stump and I have the access,the way my 252 is designed I have to grind around in a clockwise direction ( the cutter shaft belt drive cover hits the ground & keeps me from getting the depth) . It may all be my imagination ,but it seems that some stumps grind easier on different sides. Sometimes they start hard and get easier on the other side. Then others start easy and get harder on the other side..Could it be the side of the tree that has the prevalent sun exposure??? Maybe that side is denser..Magnetic pull, alien forces,voodoo,who knows what...Just seems that way..
Any other SWAG's ,actual knowledge,BS opinions,etc..

Stan


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## Shadow (Jul 31, 2010)

"When you start to grind a stump start about 12" in front of the stump and grind down in the dirt "

Am I reading this right? You grind dirt before the stump? Along with rocks and chains and whatever else is around the stump?

I try not to touch any dirt until the whole stump is ground down to the dirt. 

Grain does not make any difference.. gaurenteed.

If you have a long root running across the ground which is easier across it or length ways? Length ways you'll be there a long time.


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## gr8scott72 (Jul 31, 2010)

Shadow said:


> "When you start to grind a stump start about 12" in front of the stump and grind down in the dirt "
> 
> Am I reading this right? You grind dirt before the stump? Along with rocks and chains and whatever else is around the stump?
> 
> ...



Not everybody has rocky soil. I grind starting just before the stump also.

Grain does make a difference. If you take a bigger forward bite, which makes you cut further across the grain, you get smaller chips and slower progress. If you take smaller forward bites but then lower the cutter head more on each pass, you make longer chips and will cut faster. This is even more true with greenteeth. They cut HUGE ribbons of wood (when sharp) when cutting with the grain. Still applies for my Sandvik wheel too.

If you cut roots across the grain with a large stump grinder, you chew up more of the customer's yard than if you run with the roots.


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## Bigstumps (Jul 31, 2010)

Levco used to build a machine with a giant drum - about 30" across and probably 25" diameter. You would drum the drum straight down on the stump.

With all the teeth sharp this thing would demolish stumps - once the teeth were kind of dull the drum would bounce on top of the stump.

Levco's big selling point was grind straight down with the grain.

Hard to really cut 100% with the grain since any grinder is spinning in an arc and pivoting.

Sharp teeth and horsepower - doesn't make any difference.


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## Steve-Maine (Jul 31, 2010)

*Grind with the grain.*

When I was grinding stumps. I had a Vermeer 2465A with 80HP diesel and a mini-chief with 35 HP diesel. I always started in front of stump and got the deepth first and then started working to the back of stumps.


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## Plyscamp (Aug 7, 2010)

Shadow how many days does it take you to grind a stump? They are planted in dirt you cant avoid it. An no one grinds in more rock than we do. I was the reason rock teeth were developed for the Alpine Magnum. And how could it make any difference which way you cut the root if you gaurantee the grain does not make a difference.


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## Shadow (Aug 7, 2010)

Of course I grind in the dirt! You cant help it. But I sure dont start out in the dirt and grind forward through a foot of dirt before I start grinding stump!

If I have 4 stumps in a back yard, I will go around and grind all 4 down to the dirt, without touching very little dirt. 

Then I'll go back and grind therm down 6-8 inches below ground level. But if I'm in an area where no rocks are present I'll often just complete the stump and move on. 

Before I start I take my trenching spade and jab it down close to the stump all the way around, if no rocks or chains or old clotheslines or ?, then I proceed.

I NEVER check to see which way the grain is running, I set up whichever side is convieniant for me to work and never move around the stump unless something inhibits me from finishing grinding.

If there are roots running above ground or just below, I'll go along and cut across the root about every foot and go along after and lift out the pieces by hand. I sure as hell dont grind lenght ways along a root going 3 feet out.So I think common sense dictates not to go with the grain in that situation.

I used rock teeth the first year or so because I thought you needed to, Now I havent used them in over 2 years. I can make a set of teeth last a long time and I have mastered sharpening them so they cut like brand new.!

And as for how long it takes me to grind a stump,with all due respect I'd be half done before some of you guys figured out which way the grain was running!


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## gr8scott72 (Aug 7, 2010)

Shadow said:


> Of course I grind in the dirt! You cant help it. But I sure dont start out in the dirt and grind forward through a foot of dirt before I start grinding stump!
> 
> If I have 4 stumps in a back yard, I will go around and grind all 4 down to the dirt, without touching very little dirt.
> 
> ...



Figure out which way the grain runs? Funny. I thought trees grew up which would make the grain go up the stump. It's not rocket science.

And cut roots every foot and then pick all the pieces up? Much faster to just grind the root starting at one end and travel down the root. With my Carlton, I don't even have to move the cutter head. I can just drive up the root with the cutter wheel on the root and adjust the travel so it eats the root as I travel up towards (or away from) the stump.


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## Shadow (Aug 7, 2010)

"And cut roots every foot and then pick all the pieces up? Much faster to just grind the root starting at one end and travel down the root. With my Carlton, I don't even have to move the cutter head. I can just drive up the root with the cutter wheel on the root and adjust the travel so it eats the root as I travel up towards (or away from) the stump. "

And so your machine is sitting in the hole where you just ground out the stump? And if there is 3 or 4 roots going in different directions, you follow each one out then back up and turn things around to follow another one out? I guess you would have to. I'm using the Alpine Magnum so I can just pivot and make 5 or 6 cuts without moving. And yes if its a large underground root I'll grind it length ways but if its close to the surface it gets chopped up.


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## Oly's Stump (Aug 7, 2010)

I never look at the grain of a stump. One thing I can say is that cutting a fresh cut green stump is quicker then cutting a stump that is a year old.


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## Plyscamp (Aug 8, 2010)

As I stated in another post I ground 77 Eucs, ranging from 12"s to 50" in 5 hours the other day and that included lunch. I will be done with the stump while your still looking for the bike chain. If you read some of my other posts you will also find that razor sharp teeth love to shatter on rocks, semi sharp teeth don't. Actually I could care less how you grind as you don't work for me. I have been grinding stumps only for my living for the last 15 years. If I am not grinding stumps I am not earning a dime. I posted to assist somebody in understanding how the grain works in a stump so he could understand the grain and assist him in his grinding ability. If you feel that the grain does not make a difference your welcome to your opinion, I am 68 Years old and I will gladly stand and grind equal stumps with you anytime and I already know who will finish first. And this is the last I will post on the subject.


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## Curbside (Aug 8, 2010)

I can see Shadow's technique working with the Alpine and he probably should have stated earlier that is the machine he was using because most people don't use the Alpine most use a standard type of stump machine. I'm not going to enter the grain debate but everyone knows the machines cut better at different angles. I know many hardcore Alpine guys say their machine is so fast ect ect. Well they don't compare to a high horsepower machine and if the teeth are sharp and the soil conditions are perfect they will outcut a 252 but how often is everything perfect and a 252 is not very fast either but it is steady in almost any conditions.


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## Shadow (Aug 8, 2010)

I totally agree each machine must cut very different. 

And different machines must work with the grain different. The part that got me and still does ,is digging 12 inches of dirt before approaching the stump.


If I was to sink the Alpine in the dirt 12'' before the stump and head into the stump nose first, It would hit that stump and pull me and it right over top of the stump! 

You would have to get used to grinding with dull teeth. When I grind a 12'' stump on someones front lawn I sure am not going to leave a 24'' diameter hole. I pride myself in disturbing as little as possible soil around the stump.

And hey after all this is a discussion forum so its been a good discussion.


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## Shadow (Aug 8, 2010)

"As I stated in another post I ground 77 Eucs, ranging from 12"s to 50" in 5 hours the other day and that included lunch."

Just re-read this part, missed it before but decided to do the math on it.

77 stumps in 5 hours is over 15 stumps per hour. 15 stumps per hour works out to be 4 minutes per stump.

Sizes from 12''-50'' would be an average of 30'' stumps.

So now were dealing with 4 minutes to do a 30 inch stump.

If we take out any time for lunch we could be down to 3 minutes per stump.

Sorry Plyscamp I gotta call you on this one!


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## Mowingman (Aug 8, 2010)

I do not see any problem with the rate of stumps/hour that Plyscamp quoted. In fact, just last Monday, I knocked out 86 stumps, in two hours and 10 minutes from start to finish. They were mostly 4"-6" stumps, but there were 6 or 8, of about 20" in size.
I recently ground out a 30" stump in 11 minutes.
It is all about having the right equipment, plenty of HP, and an effecient plan of attack on each stump.
Jeff


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## Plyscamp (Aug 9, 2010)

Shadow obviously you have never used a big grinder. I own seven stump grinders not just one Alpine. Those stumps were ground with a Vermeer SC505, So call all you want it happened.


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## Shadow (Aug 9, 2010)

Wow, thats even more impressive! 1.5 minutes per stump.

Over the last couple of winters I've spent hours watching a variety of stump grinders on You tube. Trying to research a good stump grinder to perhaps invest in. There is not one that even comes close to the times you guys are quoting.

Please show me a link to one of these super machines so I can see it in action. 

I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm truly interested in researching a better stump grinder.So please keep the personal attacks to a min.


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## gr8scott72 (Aug 9, 2010)

I did an even 100 stumps on Saturday. Hour meter showed 4.4 hours including some time letting the machine idle down while I got water, etc. They were almost all pine and anywhere from 10" to 25".

That's over 22 per hour or 2.7 minutes per stump including travel time to next stump.


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## Mowingman (Aug 9, 2010)

I am using a Carlton 7015 track machine. Scott is using the same machine also. These are amazing grinding units with very high production rates.
Jeff


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## arbor pro (Aug 9, 2010)

Mowingman said:


> I am using a Carlton 7015 track machine. Scott is using the same machine also. These are amazing grinding units with very high production rates.
> Jeff



Murphy's law: You sell your 65hp diesel grinder because you haven't been using it much and then get a job grinding out an 80" wide x 24" tall cottonwood stump using a 25hp gas grinder which takes 4 times longer! grrrrr!

Spent 3-4 hrs grinding with my sc252 on saturday where my diesel grinder would have had it out within 1 hr. Oh well...

Direction of the grain would NOT have mattered with the diesel. With the 252, the machine kept wanting to 'run' up the runner roots when I'd grind with the grain vs across it. Didn't matter once I got into the stump itself - only when grinding the runner roots.


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## Curbside (Aug 9, 2010)

Shadow

I run a vermeer sc60 with a sandvic disk. It will cut a 15" elm stump to a depth of 14" in 30 - 40 se0onds. So there is no exageration in cutting claims. We that machine you can do 10 foot diameter stump in 20 minutes if you have a bobcat to move the chips out of the way.


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## coolbrze (Aug 10, 2010)

Curbside said:


> We that machine you can do 10 foot diameter stump in 20 minutes if you have a bobcat to move the chips out of the way.



That's bad*ss! We did a 7' diameter (inc. roots at ground level) Maple w/ our 2500-4 and it took just over 2 1/2 hrs. I was hating EVERY second of it!


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 12, 2010)

Shadow said:


> Of course I grind in the dirt! You cant help it. But I sure dont start out in the dirt and grind forward through a foot of dirt before I start grinding stump!
> 
> If I have 4 stumps in a back yard, I will go around and grind all 4 down to the dirt, without touching very little dirt.
> 
> ...




There isn't a rock in all of Saskatchewan.


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## Oly's Stump (Aug 12, 2010)

2 days ago I hit a stainless steel pipe that was in the middle of a fairly small stump. Sheared 7 super rayco teeth. Lost money on that job!


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## arbor pro (Aug 12, 2010)

Oly's Stump said:


> 2 days ago I hit a stainless steel pipe that was in the middle of a fairly small stump. Sheared 7 super rayco teeth. Lost money on that job!



I hit a 1 1/4" rebar on one occasion and broke 2 greenteeth while dulling several others.

Hit a piece of 1/2" x 8" wide plate steel on another job. Had to stop and replace 16 of the 32 teeth on my large grinder. Customer was nice and paid me an extra $100 bucks to help cover the damage.


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## Curbside (Aug 12, 2010)

I hate it when you hit stuff. I was stumpin for one of the cities close by and working in a back lane. Hit a 16 foot piece of chain that was buried just below the ground. Stopped the machine instantly and the chain was wrapped around the wheel so tight we had to cut it loose. Bent the drive axle, and drive shaft and ripped out the clutch that was not a cheap fix.


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## Mowingman (Aug 12, 2010)

OUCH!!!!!




Curbside said:


> I hate it when you hit stuff. I was stumpin for one of the cities close by and working in a back lane. Hit a 16 foot piece of chain that was buried just below the ground. Stopped the machine instantly and the chain was wrapped around the wheel so tight we had to cut it loose. Bent the drive axle, and drive shaft and ripped out the clutch that was not a cheap fix.


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## Curbside (Aug 13, 2010)

It was painful. At least that city had a ton of work for me after that. Softened the blow a bit.


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## Oly's Stump (Aug 13, 2010)

Earlier this year I was stumping a lot clearing job where there use to be a junk yard. Unknown to me just under the ground along side of a stump was a fire truck fire hose. I was using my 8018 TRX and when it grabbed the hose it pulled it into the wheel and jammed it bad killing the motor. It took an hour to cut it out and I had to have the clutch re-adjusted.
Years ago I was grinding a stump next to a cyclone fence using my RG50. I got to close and it grabbed the fence and pulled it into the machine destroying the fence. It took a couple hours to cut the fence out of my machine and took 5 hours to fix the fence. I learned my lesson there about cyclone fences.


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## Curbside (Aug 13, 2010)

I did that once with a chain link fence. Learned my lesson that day that's for sure. The machine ripped down about 40 feet of chain link and and swallowed about 15 feet. What a mess trying to cut that out of the grinder. That job cost me a few dollars. What really sucks was I had already done the stumps but I thought to myself I should do one more pass just to make sure all the roots were low enough. Of course as your doing it your thinking you know everything went good and you should shut it down before something bad happen/////Oh sh too late


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## Oly's Stump (Aug 14, 2010)

I know what you mean Curbside...been there done that!


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## dtm165 (Aug 14, 2010)

*pipe*

After over a year in the stump grinding business, I have hit a fence, but luckily I got that untangled in the machine with help, and an old pipe, but luckily got that out of the boom also.


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## Mowingman (Aug 14, 2010)

I caught the edge of a big rolled up wad of barbed wire last year. Was grinding a stump right next to a pile of junk and some of the wire was buried in the ground by the stump. It yanked the whole big wad right into the wheel. I spent nearly 2 hours cutting it out with wire cutters. Boy was I ticked.
Jeff


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## gr8scott72 (Aug 14, 2010)

Mowingman said:


> I caught the edge of a big rolled up wad of barbed wire last year. Was grinding a stump right next to a pile of junk and some of the wire was buried in the ground by the stump. It yanked the whole big wad right into the wheel. I spent nearly 2 hours cutting it out with wire cutters. Boy was I ticked.
> Jeff



Any kind of chain or wire really gets stuck and takes some time to undo. I just got done this afternoon pulling some barbwire out of the wheel from the last job.

I went to Houston after Ike and found this sweet rich neighborhood. The only bad thing was EVERY yard had landscape lights/wires going to every tree. I spent many hours that week pulling wire out of the wheel.

I hit something one time, actually heard it go "chink" over the volume of the grinder. Stopped to look, never found what I hit but it snapped 5 sandvik teeth off.

I hit a circular saw blade once and that chewed off 6 teeth iirc.


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 19, 2010)

And I thought I was the only person who ever hit anything buried around a stump.


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## arbor pro (Aug 25, 2010)

*fun night last night*

I believe last night was the worst night of stump grinding I've ever had. Ground out a 50' line of stumps in what turned out to be a rubble field. All the stumps were re-sprouting and buried in 3' tall grass so I had to 'feel' my way through the area for them. Well, I felt plenty. Boulders, huge chunks of concrete, flat steel, landscape fabric. Loads of fun. Completely destroyed an entire set of greenteeth on my 252. Had to stop and change lead teeth just to finish the job. The attached photos are what's left of the leads when I got done with the last stump.

Customer is going to get a 'debris surcharge' on this one. I've only ever applied a surcharge a few times over the past years and this is going to be one of em.


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## Mowingman (Aug 25, 2010)

That is one of several reasons I hate Green Teeth. They are very fragile, and prone to breaking easily.
I find the Sandvic, and even the Rayco Super Teeth, are much more durable in rocky ground and areas with debris.
Jeff


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## arbor pro (Aug 25, 2010)

Mowingman said:


> That is one of several reasons I hate Green Teeth. They are very fragile, and prone to breaking easily.
> I find the Sandvic, and even the Rayco Super Teeth, are much more durable in rocky ground and areas with debris.
> Jeff



Luckily, it is rare that I encounter debris. Usually pretty clean soil in my area so the green teeth work well in most cases - not so much last night.


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## kiwidiesel (Aug 25, 2010)

*Tooth cost.*



arbor pro said:


> Luckily, it is rare that I encounter debris. Usually pretty clean soil in my area so the green teeth work well in most cases - not so much last night.


What do you pay for the teeth . We are changing from Yellow Jackets because they cost over $45.00 in New Zealand. We will be running 900 series on Vermeer 352.


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## arbor pro (Aug 25, 2010)

It's been a couple of years since I bought the 1100 series that I run but they cost $12.00 each then. I've heard that, since green manufacturing switched to low profile tap and turn pockets/teeth, the old style are harder to come by. Anybody else know if that's true and, if so, where else can one buy them?

I have a hundred or so dull teeth that need either sharpened or retipped. I need to find someone to send them to. Anyone have any ideas on that?


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## gr8scott72 (Aug 25, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> It's been a couple of years since I bought the 1100 series that I run but they cost $12.00 each then. I've heard that, since green manufacturing switched to low profile tap and turn pockets/teeth, the old style are harder to come by. Anybody else know if that's true and, if so, where else can one buy them?
> 
> I have a hundred or so dull teeth that need either sharpened or retipped. I need to find someone to send them to. Anyone have any ideas on that?



I have a couple of ideas for you but don't have time right now as I'm leaving out on a trip until friday morning. I'll get back to you.


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