# Descending using your figure 8



## Redbug (Jan 24, 2005)

A safety question which I have been pondering about... When you are descending a tree using SRT, with your figure 8 attached to your dees, do you use a backup device of some sort to stop you in the event something happens, (accident), and you let go of the rope? Seems like proper technique is to always have 2 systems...a primary and backup...anytime you enter a tree. How do you guys do it coming down? Just use only the figure 8 or what?


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## glens (Jan 24, 2005)

I leave my friction hitch in place and tend it with my "free" hand above the eight.

Glen


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2005)

I just come on down. My right hand guides and my left hand controls. It I were to stroke out right about then, I would plummet earthward tootsweet. So no, I don't use a back-up.


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## arboromega (Jan 24, 2005)

leaving the hitch in place, but a little loose is a good idea. you can stop and grab a hanger on the way down if you have to. or just soft lock the 8 i guess.you could rap out on just the 8 if you had a guy belay your rope.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2005)

Mike Maas said:


> My guess is that if you did let go, you wouldn't fall that fast anyway. MB, tomorrow you get up real high, hook up your 8, and jump with no hands. If we don't hear back from you tomorrow we'll assume it's no good.




Roger that.


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## a_lopa (Jan 24, 2005)




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## OutOnaLimb (Jan 24, 2005)

I always rap down from a spar on a big steel biner and a Munter hitch.

Kenn


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## P_woozel (Jan 24, 2005)

I use a Munter in a tree, I save the hardware for long descents. I fell out of a spar a few years ago because the Munter was a hitch I had learned but never used, got in a hurry leaned back and all the sudden I couldnt breathe, my back hurt like hell and everyone was running twords me looking all weird. I have used that exclusively since then so as to never do it wrong again. :umpkin:


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 25, 2005)

Use a rack, they don't twist the rope and have better friction characteristics. You don't have to unclip your rope to put it in a rack.


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## blackwaterguide (Jan 25, 2005)

what's the point of an eight if you keep a prussik or hitch? When rock climbers repel do they? No. Tough guys out of 20' drop helis with automatic weaponl
ry? Wrong again.


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## blackwaterguide (Jan 25, 2005)

if you're gonna rapel, then just do it!


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## Brock2saws (Jan 25, 2005)

It's not very often that I use the fig 8 to descend. If I do, I use a friction hitch to back it up. Most of the time I just use the hitch to descend and if I think I'll be coming down too fast, I get a loose footlock on the tail to slow me down. It's too much trouble to put in the 8.

BAB


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2005)

I usually don't use a descender when exiting. Unless it's a TD and I'm coming down the pull rope, then I'll use a munter.

The few times I've SRT'd on a long rap, I've used backup, justin case my hnads get tired. Why risk it? 

I don't SRT much because of the loading issues with my weight.


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## Koa Man (Jan 25, 2005)

The only time I use the 8 for descending is SRT down a tall palm after trimming it.
I don't use a hitch to back it up and never worried about it failing. If you are using leather gloves, holding the rope on both sides of the 8 and not trying to descend as fast as possible, I don't see one could get hurt.


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## Burnham (Jan 25, 2005)

Koa, what about if that rat up there in the crown jumped down on your face? Are you sure you'd keep control with your brake hand?

This doesn't mean I think a friction hitch backup is a good idea. I use a ground based belayer.


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## Koa Man (Jan 25, 2005)

I put on the 8 only after trimming the palm. Any rats would be gone by then.
BTW, I have had rats jump on me several times. All ran down except this one stupid rat who ran up. It got stuck on my face clawing away trying to get over my hardhat. I had to grap it with my free hand and pull it off my face. I actually had scratch marks inside my lower lip from it. My groundman was freaking out more than me. I did not drop the cane knife I held in my other hand either and finished up trimming the palm.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jan 25, 2005)

i have been pondering this question for year's im sure i once saw a group of scouts absailing using a figure 8 and with no back up hitch,also im certain i saw a British celebratie Angela Rippon absailing down a cliff [holiday show] with fig 8 and again no back up..me i back up with a prussik , though im certain i could decend with just a fig 8 and not have a problem ever but why risk it


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## Burnham (Jan 25, 2005)

That was just a hypothetical question, Koa. What I mean to say is, wierd stuff happens in life, and will sometimes take us by suprise. Loss of control may follow, and be very difficult to regain before gravity powered acceleration gets out of hand.

Basically, I agree with you, but as an instructor I often look at the negative possibilities and tend to advocate simple ways to avoid nasty consequences.

For a person of your experience level and high degree of comfort with your equipment the chances are that you will not lose concentration and control, but there lies the danger...I see the exact same tendency in myself.


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## SteveBullman (Jan 25, 2005)

yeah, supposing a coconut fell on your head on your way down


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## Redbug (Jan 25, 2005)

Very interesting...I didn't think of the Army rapping down from their choppers with guns blazing and with no backup, (rope-wise that is). But, after reading the posts, I think I will use a hitch with the 8 for awhile until I get more comfortable with what I am doing. Tower climbing work does not involve rappelling and it's a new extension for me. 

...However, in the movie, the Terminator had no wimpy backup while saving the world....


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## teressa green (Jan 25, 2005)

You Want To Find Out If You Can Decend On A Fig 8 Try It ,


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## Burnham (Jan 25, 2005)

For those of you who are either using in fact or advocating in theory the use of a friction hitch as a backup to a rappel device, I offer the following link:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/RappelSafetyPost.html

Dr. Gary Storrick is well respected in the cavers' world, where developement of vertical rope techniques and skills really push the envelope. If you have not visited his site to review information on ascender/descender equipment and related subjects, you have missed an invaluable resource.

His document, linked above, is pretty convincing to me and is largely why I reject friction hitch backups to rappel devices. But it is important to note that his comments are directed to SRT descent, not the DdRT systems arborists commonly use. My long rappels are usually on fixed single or double rope, and it is there that the friction hitch backup fails. DdRT systems incorporate much higher background levels of friction and that makes a significant difference in outcomes, but I would caution that DdRT setups with friction savers, in their many variations, might reduce that "rope on tree" friction to low enough levels that the rappeler may be exposed to similar hazards as with SRT.


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## Lumberjack (Jan 25, 2005)

I never back up the 8, when repeling SRT i use the pezel I'd or an 8. If i am gonna be stopping on the way down to work i use the I'd, if not its the 8. 

Using the 8 I never back it up. If i change my mind and need to stop while coming down its a softlock with the tail tied, but not a full hard lock. I dont trust the soft lock for any real length of time.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 25, 2005)

I never back up my friction device, per se. I do, however, keep two delta links up front. The second one I'll clip a biner to it, and clip that to the rope. This is not backed up by any means, but is my device were to detonate or something, the rope will still be in front of my hips.


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## Redbug (Jan 25, 2005)

Storrick's caving article (posted above by Burnham), about hitches as backup is VERY sobering. The Petzl I'D is probably safer since you have to pull the handle to descend, it stops when you have to let it go for some reason. I've never tried one of those. The method Lumberjack is using makes a lot of sense. I have used the figure 8, but was thinking safety, since they drill it into you when tower climbing about always having a backup system.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 25, 2005)

Have you guys seen the Petzl ASAP ? It's a back up device that's designed to arrest a free fall or an overly speedy rappel. It is activated by speed, or acceleration. The principal is much like a clutch; it is an inertia reel.

It is strictly a SRT thing, but will accomodate 13 mm rope. 

It's a nifty piece, great concept, but I am unsure of it's utility in our world. Probably tower work and other aerial disciplines where fall arrest is critical.


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## Koa Man (Jan 25, 2005)

stephenbullman said:


> yeah, supposing a coconut fell on your head on your way down


 Nah, a coconut would fall on your head going up, never on the way down. All coconuts, flowers and seed pods are removed when trimming.


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## Lumberjack (Jan 25, 2005)

Redbug said:


> Storrick's caving article (posted above by Burnham), about hitches as backup is VERY sobering. The Petzl I'D is probably safer since you have to pull the handle to descend, it stops when you have to let it go for some reason. I've never tried one of those. The method Lumberjack is using makes a lot of sense. I have used the figure 8, but was thinking safety, since they drill it into you when tower climbing about always having a backup system.




I dont see a need to back up either an I'd or an 8 for the way that i use them.

If either ever fail, i am SOL anyway you look at it, my 8 is rated to 10k, forget what the id is rated. I tried working off an 8 but i had a hard time with the hitch. 

As much as i used to be for SRT, i couldnt tell you the last time i used it. It is still king for going up fast and effeciently, but not what i perfer. I rarely have to climb more than 40-50 to start working.

My mom asked me last weekend what i would be tied to if the tree failed. I told her that they better open the doors to he-ll because i am gonna be comin in fast. She failed to see the humor, go figure.


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## Burnham (Jan 26, 2005)

Lumberjack said:


> I dont see a need to back up either an I'd or an 8 for the way that i use them.
> 
> If either ever fail, i am SOL anyway you look at it, my 8 is rated to 10k, forget what the id is rated. I tried working off an 8 but i had a hard time with the hitch.



Lumberjack, and Tree Machine, too, I don't think you have to worry about your 8 spontaneously failing or detonating  ; heck, Carl, most rec 8's come in at around 30 Kn, and rescue models go higher than that...the problem will not be equipment failure, it will be operator error. 

Unless you are working alone, I see no reason not to have your groundie take hold of your rope while you rappel on your 8, it's such an easy belay. I suspect some macho issue may hinder us in making this choice (I am not immune  ). Obviously the I'D backs itself up in case of operator error...it isn't going to blow apart either...


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## glens (Jan 26, 2005)

Let's not forget the original question here:&nbsp; "When you are descending a tree using SRT"


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## Burnham (Jan 26, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Have you guys seen the Petzl ASAP ? It's a back up device that's designed to arrest a free fall or an overly speedy rappel. It is activated by speed, or acceleration. The principal is much like a clutch; it is an inertia reel.
> 
> It is strictly a SRT thing, but will accomodate 13 mm rope.
> 
> It's a nifty piece, great concept, but I am unsure of it's utility in our world. Probably tower work and other aerial disciplines where fall arrest is critical.



TM, this is a new one for me, thanks alot, I'm going to look into it some more. In long SRT raps from old growth it might have some application, and I do some tower work, too...belaying the ladder climbs is often a hassle.


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## Lumberjack (Jan 26, 2005)

Burnham said:


> ... heck, Carl, most rec 8's come in at around 30 Kn, and rescue models go higher than that...the problem will not be equipment failure, it will be operator error.



My 8 is rated to 10k pounds, more than my rope or biners are.


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## Burnham (Jan 26, 2005)

Oops, my bad, Carl. I read your post incorrectly...I saw 10Kn and you did indeed write 10k. We are on the same page now...thanks. That sucker is bombproof strong.

Do you see what I mean about operator error rather than equipment failure being the risk when one uses the 8?


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## gumneck (Feb 2, 2005)

*Descending Using a Figure 8*

*
How about coming down on bull rope with figure eight and a klemheist(sp?) ?
*


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