# Had a saw taken from my hands today



## Andrew W. (Dec 8, 2015)

Okay I started at a tree service last week, and today they allowed me to notch and drop a small Tree, 16ft evergreen, maybe a spruce, it even has a rope in it and was being pulled on, anyway I started the notch and the fun began.

I didn't even get 2 inches into the top cut for the notch and they said, no!! What the hell are you doing, I replied it's just an open face notch let me Finish and I will show ya, takes the saw from me goes just below my cut and does a common or closed face notch, okay no biggie.

But then after he dropped the tree, they just kept telling me again and again, if I use the open face method, as the tree comes down the first limb that hit the ground will make the tree jump the stump, and that the open face method is almost as dangerous as a barber chair!

Now I have little experience in comparison to somebody who's been doing it longer than I have been alive but does that make me wrong to know a different technique that would have worked the same 

I have no problem making a common notch, or humboldt, but at least let me finish the cut.

I practiced in the woods behind where I live this method seems safe, I do a 60 or 70 ish degree top cut, and a 30 to 20 ish degree undercut, and I stay with is 1/3 of the trees thickness, and my back cut is even with the center of the notch, worked great.

Okay I am done ranting, feel free to chime in, and I am in no way a professional, nor a tree God, I am learning, and I felt annoyed, thanks have a good night.


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## crotchclimber (Dec 8, 2015)

I drop small trees like aspens all the time with an open face. The tree is usually still attached to the stump when it reaches the ground. Sounds like your coworkers are inexperienced with this relatively modern technique.


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## JRoland (Dec 9, 2015)

You would think if they were going to get that fired up at you, enough to take the saw from you, that they would have given you some parameters to go by to start....


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## Pelorus (Dec 9, 2015)

Andrew W. said:


> I didn't even get 2 inches into the top cut for the notch and they said, no!! What the hell are you doing, I replied it's just an open face notch let me Finnish and I will show ya, takes the saw from me goes just below my cut and does a common or closed face notch, okay no biggie..



Andrew, what you wrote made me laugh!!! (the "let me Finnish" is awesome, too)
Anyway, I want to commend you. If not for your felling skill, then for your writing style.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 9, 2015)

OK was it a Sprucebolt or a Hembolt?
because I heard Spruce and then Hembolt
I'm so confused


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## Creeker (Dec 9, 2015)

I get the hell away from a tree as it starts to go over, faller shouldn't be near stump as it goes over and then can't be hit if they come back.


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## Westboastfaller (Dec 9, 2015)

"Jump the stump"
Jump the step (anti kickback step)
Well according to you, and what you told us is you don't leave a step.
So you should have just retorted"NO! I don't leave a step!


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

crotchclimber said:


> I drop small trees like aspens all the time with an open face. The tree is usually still attached to the stump when it reaches the ground. Sounds like your coworkers are inexperienced with this relatively modern technique.


My co workers are very knowledgeable, they know all kinds of things I probabably never will, just about everyone has been Climbing for 10-15+ years, there is not a [email protected] thing that I could tell them that they do not know already.

It's great working where I am at, I Am getting more experienced every day I work, I love it, I just thought it was funny because, evidently everybody on arboristsite is wrong, to fell a tree is wrong, and any other tree service that uses that style is wrong, apparently ;p.

with only 6months work of experience maybe a little less, I don't know enough, and only working here for a week I don't have the ability to discuss a different technique for notching.

and at the very and he goes, "how old are you" I replied I'm 18 but.. And right after that he told me exactly, I've been doing this longer than you have been alive, I am trying to save your life, it's okay not to know, you are young.

And as I said b4 I'm no expert I'm just a guy who likes to cut and care for trees.


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## Zale (Dec 9, 2015)

You're at the stage in your career where it is better to listen than to challenge your coworkers. I'm not saying what you were trying to do was wrong but you got to chose your battles and this isn't one you will win. If you have a proper open face notch, it can stay attached until its on the ground. Thats the whole point of it. It gives you more control.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

Zale said:


> You're at the stage in your career where it is better to listen than to challenge your coworkers. I'm not saying what you were trying to do was wrong but you got to chose your battles and this isn't one you will win. If you have a proper open face notch, it can stay attached until its on the ground. Thats the whole point of it. It gives you more control.


Ya, I agree with you, that's why once he had the saw I just want okay, we talked back and forth for about 5 minutes afterwards, I just shut up and listened, thanks for the reply.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

JRoland said:


> You would think if they were going to get that fired up at you, enough to take the saw from you, that they would have given you some parameters to go by to start....


They weren't like "yelling" per say, just talking at me. There is no way to convince somebody that's been doing it over 20 years, with only 6 months backing you up.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> OK was it a Sprucebolt or a Hembolt?
> because I heard Spruce and then Hembolt
> I'm so confused


Allow me to correct my spelling error, what my phone interpreted Humboldt, as hembolt, my apologies.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> "Jump the stump"
> Jump the step (anti kickback step)
> Well according to you, and what you told us is you don't leave a step.
> So you should have just retorted"NO! I don't leave a step!


I don't have the experience, to back me up, so I replied with, "let me finnish" I will show ya.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

Pelorus said:


> Andrew, what you wrote made me laugh!!! (the "let me Finnish" is awesome, too)
> Anyway, I want to commend you. If not for your felling skill, then for your writing style.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave


I am not all that skilled I have a little less than 6months experience and only a week at this tree service.

Thank you


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## DR. P. Proteus (Dec 9, 2015)

Ain't that just like a tree guy? I get it.

ANSI STANDARD 6001dash14 subsection b states:
The tree guy in his natural habit will seek to act like a dickhead whenever possible. He will try to do it under the guise of trying to be a teacher but in reality he does it only to amuse his dementia.

Andrew, I would now like to take this time to welcome you to your future.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Ain't that just like a tree guy? I get it.
> 
> ANSI STANDARD 6001dash14 subsection b states:
> The tree guy in his natural habit will seek to act like a dickhead whenever possible. He will try to do it under the guise of trying to be a teacher but in reality he does it only to amuse his dementia.
> ...


Lol, thanks I feel the love.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

Creeker said:


> I get the hell away from a tree as it starts to go over, faller shouldn't be near stump as it goes over and then can't be hit if they come back.


Well today they let me notch again, and it went as they wanted it to, common notch on a small maple, it went just a little bit left of where I wanted it to go, however it was a low risk fell, so the 2ft it was odd is no biggie, and as soon as that tree was moving I got strait the he11 outta there


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 9, 2015)

Andrew W. said:


> My co workers are very knowledgeable, they know all kinds of things I probabably never will, just about everyone has been Climbing for 10-15+ years, there is not a [email protected] thing that I could tell them that they do not know already.
> 
> It's great working where I am at, I Am getting more experienced every day I work, I love it, I just thought it was funny because, evidently everybody on arboristsite is wrong, to fell a tree is wrong, and any other tree service that uses that style is wrong, apparently ;p.
> 
> ...



Sounds more like an ******* boss than anything else.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Sounds more like an ******* boss than anything else.


He's just the foreman who's not experienced with that style of notch, so they bolth automatically assume it's a wrong technique

However it was a **** move so stop me from finnishing my cut, if I had cut it wrong and *ucked it up, then they could have told me all day long and I would have been okay.

Now as I have stated previously I am not a professional, not a tree God, I'm just a newbie with 6 months under my belt I know just about any knot, bend, friction hitch you can ask for, I can buck logs, and run a porta wrap quite well


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## pro94lt (Dec 9, 2015)

You don't think their just having fun with you?


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

pro94lt said:


> You don't think their just having fun with you?


Lol, nope being dead serious!


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## CR888 (Dec 9, 2015)

Zale said:


> You're at the stage in your career where it is better to listen than to challenge your coworkers. I'm not saying what you were trying to do was wrong but you got to chose your battles and this isn't one you will win. If you have a proper open face notch, it can stay attached until its on the ground. Thats the whole point of it. It gives you more control.


Very sensible good advice, you sound very enthusiastic and keen which is really good and will help you become a good arborist as you want know 'why' about everything. However at this stage of you career it is important not to get your ambitions confussed with your capabilities. Keep listening and asking questions but respect your teachers trust in allowing you up a tree in the first place.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

CR888 said:


> Very sensible good advice, you sound very enthusiastic and keen which is really good and will help you become a good arborist as you want know 'why' about everything. However at this stage of you career it is important not to get your ambitions confussed with your capabilities. Keep listening and asking questions but respect your teachers trust in allowing you up a tree in the first place.


Sounds like a good plan that I am trying to work on thanks for the advice I hope to go up a tree soon I am buying a new climbing line saturday, and a guy at work is hooking me up with some of his old gear


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 9, 2015)

For **** sakes, it's FINISH not finnish.

Finnish is something that is related to being from Finland (that's in Europe).

Sometimes you want the tree to jump the stump, sometimes to stay with the stump. If you're in the tree, you want it to jump the stump. If the top/branch hangs on to the stump too long (while in the tree), it will land on the top, and depending on the species, load up energy like a pole vault pole and the butt will spring back. A problem if you have a tight drop zone.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 9, 2015)

BC WetCoast said:


> For **** sakes, it's FINISH not finnish.
> 
> Finnish is something that is related to being from Finland (that's in Europe).
> 
> Sometimes you want the tree to jump the stump, sometimes to stay with the stump. If you're in the tree, you want it to jump the stump. If the top/branch hangs on to the stump too long (while in the tree), it will land on the top, and depending on the species, load up energy like a pole vault pole and the butt will spring back. A problem if you have a tight drop zone.


That's good advice, thanks for posting I will take in all the information I can get


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## Creeker (Dec 10, 2015)

Andrew W. said:


> as soon as that tree was moving I got strait the he11 outta there



Beauty Andrew, work out and clear your *exit paths* of other foliage, limbs etc and *be safe*, high priority with every tree you fall .........


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## scheffa (Dec 10, 2015)

I'm only a weekend warrior but I always thought the purpose of the open face notch was to control the tree all the way to the ground and prevent the tree separating from the stump, feel free to correct me


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## Andrew W. (Dec 10, 2015)

scheffa said:


> I'm only a weekend warrior but I always thought the purpose of the open face notch was to control the tree all the way to the ground and prevent the tree separating from the stump, feel free to correct me


That's exactly it, but they have never used that technique so it's automatically wrong.


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## Zale (Dec 10, 2015)

You are correct.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 10, 2015)

Zale said:


> You are correct.


Well like I told them, I will notch any way you want, for now on, closed face for just about all purposes.


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## Marshy (Dec 10, 2015)




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## hardpan (Dec 10, 2015)

Pay your dues, listen, don't give the F U look when you are getting bad instruction, keep learning the correct methods, and just maybe some day you will sore with eagles instead of flocking with turkeys. Doesn't matter what job you are doing.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 10, 2015)

hardpan said:


> Pay your dues, listen, don't give the F U look when you are getting bad instruction, keep learning the correct methods, and just maybe some day you will sore with eagles instead of flocking with turkeys. Doesn't matter what job you are doing.


Working on it


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## JRoland (Dec 11, 2015)

hardpan said:


> Pay your dues, listen, don't give the F U look when you are getting bad instruction, keep learning the correct methods, and just maybe some day you will sore with eagles instead of flocking with turkeys. Doesn't matter what job you are doing.



"Sore with eagles" ? As in, he will literally be sore from being the groundman for these guys?


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## JRoland (Dec 11, 2015)

Or sore, like the eagle didn't take an ibuprofen.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Dec 11, 2015)

Bide your time and look around for a crew that is more open to learning g new ways of doi.g things. Sometimes people spend X number of years doing one thing one way and are not keen on learning a differnt method to achieve the same result. Quite a common thing in "skilled" trades. Perhaps talk to your co workers about a skills refresher program, if they have been doing it for so any years techniques have advanced as well as some equipment so it might be a good thing to "Improve company effiecncy, safety, and production" *good employers will read that as a chance to increase profit margins and lower insurance premiums*

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk


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## Andrew W. (Dec 11, 2015)

JRoland said:


> "Sore with eagles" ? As in, he will literally be sore from being the groundman for these guys?


Was walking out cherry and red oak logs yesterday, I'm going to be way stronger by spring


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## Andrew W. (Dec 11, 2015)

nscoyote said:


> Bide your time and look around for a crew that is more open to learning g new ways of doi.g things. Sometimes people spend X number of years doing one thing one way and are not keen on learning a differnt method to achieve the same result. Quite a common thing in "skilled" trades. Perhaps talk to your co workers about a skills refresher program, if they have been doing it for so any years techniques have advanced as well as some equipment so it might be a good thing to "Improve company effiecncy, safety, and production" *good employers will read that as a chance to increase profit margins and lower insurance premiums*
> 
> Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the advice, I am going to get where I want to be, no worries, but I am going slow, doing tree work in Florida as compared to here is 2 different world's, the only thing I have a jump on is my knots, bucking logs, and running a porta wrap.

It all feels new to me, it's exciting, fun and a good choice IMHO.


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## newforest (Dec 11, 2015)

Andrew W. said:


> and as soon as that tree was moving I got strait the he11 outta there



I do hope that was just some quick typing there, and that you do know proper escape route planning. When the trunk starts to move, set your chain brake and calmly walk away from the trunk at a 45º angle to the direction of the back cut. Of course the route you take should have been cleared in advance, taking particular care to make sure there is nothing you can trip on. "Straight the hell outta there" kind of implies you run straight back from the cut. Anything the falling trunk disturbs or breaks that gets sent flying in your direction will most likely move at a 180º from the falling trunk. 

Hopefully you already know all of that but I'm not so sure the rest of your crew would have explained it like that.


I taught a firewood-cutting-kid open faced notches on some pre-commercial falling work (post harvest cleanup of average 4" stems). He said "this is great, so much faster!" I replied, OK, we are going to start over on this technique and the reasons for it, and falling planning in general.


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## Andrew W. (Dec 11, 2015)

newforest said:


> I do hope that was just some quick typing there, and that you do know proper escape route planning. When the trunk starts to move, set your chain brake and calmly walk away from the trunk at a 45º angle to the direction of the back cut. Of course the route you take should have been cleared in advance, taking particular care to make sure there is nothing you can trip on. "Straight the hell outta there" kind of implies you run straight back from the cut. Anything the falling trunk disturbs or breaks that gets sent flying in your direction will most likely move at a 180º from the falling trunk.
> 
> Hopefully you already know all of that but I'm not so sure the rest of your crew would have explained it like that.
> 
> ...


Ya where this tree was, my escape route was clear.  and yes I already knew that


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 12, 2015)

Welcome to AS and thanks for posting in the '101' forum,,,
Jeff


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## Andrew W. (Dec 12, 2015)

jefflovstrom said:


> Welcome to AS and thanks for posting in the '101' forum,,,
> Jeff[/Q





jefflovstrom said:


> Welcome to AS and thanks for posting in the '101' forum,,,
> Jeff


Thanks not my first post but a big thank you anyway.

I like this site so far I am about to rebuild a Husqvarna 350


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 12, 2015)

newforest said:


> I do hope that was just some quick typing there, and that you do know proper escape route planning. When the trunk starts to move, set your chain brake and calmly walk away from the trunk at a 45º angle to the direction of the back cut. Of course the route you take should have been cleared in advance, taking particular care to make sure there is nothing you can trip on. "Straight the hell outta there" kind of implies you run straight back from the cut. Anything the falling trunk disturbs or breaks that gets sent flying in your direction will most likely move at a 180º from the falling trunk.
> 
> Hopefully you already know all of that but I'm not so sure the rest of your crew would have explained it like that.
> 
> ...



So the first to do is whack out Mrs Smith's prize roses because its in your escape route?


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