# Let the low ballin begin!!



## lxt (Apr 3, 2011)

At first it seemed as though people were truly choosing proper tree care & not minding the higher price tag that goes with such, lately I have hit a small group who is only concerned with the price.........The cheapest price!!

were still very busy & work is coming in but the job I bid yesterday was a 70-80ft stone dead elm bout 3ft dbh, hanging over her prize cork screw willow, a shed, a driveway & several arborvitae in a landscape setting........! I give her my price:

I almost had to catch her as she was going down!!!! she replies oh my..... you`re $500.00 higher than the other guy....he bid $1000.00.......! im thinking....we`re gonna be here a day in a half easy $100 an hr.....figure in some sharpening time & the un-expected....bam $1525.00 thought it was a good deal and then comes this:

cant I pay you cash? yes maam! well then why dont we see how it goes & if there is no damage you wont have to charge me for you carrying insurance...! WHAT? yeah, im saving you 30% off the top with cash.......the other guy said he could do it, why cant you!!

well maam.......I carry insurance "FULL TIME".........the other guy prolly has "NONE"...........good luck with that & I walked!! never had this happen, guess they think insurance is optional??? LOL






LXT....................


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## TreEmergencyB (Apr 3, 2011)

what part of PA you from i know of a bunch of low ballers in the Pittsburgh area


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## arborpros (Apr 3, 2011)

That is pretty crazy. People just don't get it some times. Walking was the best option.


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## Grace Tree (Apr 3, 2011)

*Signs of the times*

Last tree I bid last year was a 100 ft. oak. Not far from the house. Could have knocked one big limb off and dropped the rest but the clear span was across a 50 yr. old septic system. I bid $1600 and the lady's jaw dropped. She told me the other guy bid $400. She really didn't want it done until this spring but I told her to call him and have it done right now. I'm guessing about now she's putting in a new septic. This spring I bid a semi charity job for an elderly woman on a long dead elm near wires for $250.00 which would have been my expenses. Went by last week and the tree was gone. I'm baffled.
Phil


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## mckeetree (Apr 3, 2011)

These Mexicans down here around me work for close to nothing. It's unbelievable.


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 3, 2011)

Stay professional and let the low ballers have their reward. It's simple birds of a feather sociology. I'm not high end, and certainly don't look high end, but I service middle to high end minded clientele with a top notch, professional job at an honest price. As a result, I get referred to the kinds of people I want to work for. The kind that go with the cheapest, cut corners, and what not, I won't work for anyway. I'm not out to get every job, nor most jobs, but rather the right jobs for the right people. Over time that will pay dividends.


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## Arbor Vision (Apr 3, 2011)

Bid a job this morning for 7g's and the customer told me they had an estimate for 3500.00 I asked to see it. Told me he would fax/email it to me later today....called me a little while ago and said the other company said they do not offer written estimates.....then asked me if I could do the job for 4,500.00.......Wtf....told him if u have a price for 3500 why are you asking me to do it for 4500....told him no, 7,000.00 non negotiable....grumbled a little and said he would get back to me. His wife called me and said there other estimate was for 13,500.00 not 3500. There a landscaping company and I guess going to sub the tree work out. She also said they had a estimate for 6,900.00.....I then told her my price is now 7,500.00 and call me when her and her husband are ready to sign a contract and my price is good for 24hrs.
Tired of wasting my time...fuel and better judgement of peoples charicter.


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## Grouchy old man (Apr 3, 2011)

lxt said:


> ...why dont we see how it goes & if there is no damage you wont have to charge me for you carrying insurance...!
> LXT....................



I like that. I think I'll tell my insurance company that since I had no claims last year I won't be paying them this year. :msp_thumbup:


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## lxt (Apr 3, 2011)

TreEmergencyB said:


> what part of PA you from i know of a bunch of low ballers in the Pittsburgh area


 
Actually im in the Beaver county area, every now & then we make it to Mt.Lebanon & surroundings.

I agree...stay firm..be polite & be professional, sooner or later the market will weed out the unwanted fly by nights, I do feel bad for the guys down south with the mexicans ruining the market!!!

It should almost be legal if you know them to be "illegals" to shoot em, kinda like coyotes.....they have a reason for being, BUT...they just end up in our backyards destroying things beyond their intended purpose!!!!




LXT......................


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## mckeetree (Apr 3, 2011)

lxt said:


> Actually im in the Beaver county area, every now & then we make it to Mt.Lebanon & surroundings.
> 
> I agree...stay firm..be polite & be professional, sooner or later the market will weed out the unwanted fly by nights, I do feel bad for the guys down south with the mexicans ruining the market!!!
> 
> ...


 
I superlike that post.


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## TreeAce (Apr 3, 2011)

lxt said:


> Actually im in the Beaver county area, every now & then we make it to Mt.Lebanon & surroundings.
> 
> I agree...stay firm..be polite & be professional, sooner or later the market will weed out the unwanted fly by nights, I do feel bad for the guys down south with the mexicans ruining the market!!!
> 
> ...


 
I could regret saying this but .....Its not just mexicans..there are people around me who would include the Amish in the under cutting hack group. Believe it or not. More so in construction but I have ran into it with tree work as well. Last i checked they dont have to pay taxes and child labor laws dont seem to matter either. They tend to fool people into never doubting they are highly skilled in whatever they are doing because....there Amish... Although, I will say that some Amish are skilled tradesmen who take there amish lifestyle very serious. I just havent met one yet.


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## Grace Tree (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I could regret saying this but .....Its not just mexicans..there are people around me who would include the Amish in the under cutting hack group. Believe it or not. More so in construction but I have ran into it with tree work as well. Last i checked they dont have to pay taxes and child labor laws dont seem to matter either. They tend to fool people into never doubting they are highly skilled in whatever they are doing because....there Amish... Although, I will say that some Amish are skilled tradesmen who take there amish lifestyle very serious. I just havent met one yet.


 
Absolutely true.


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## mckeetree (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I could regret saying this but .....Its not just mexicans..there are people around me who would include the Amish in the under cutting hack group. Believe it or not. More so in construction but I have ran into it with tree work as well. Last i checked they dont have to pay taxes and child labor laws dont seem to matter either. They tend to fool people into never doubting they are highly skilled in whatever they are doing because....there Amish... Although, I will say that some Amish are skilled tradesmen who take there amish lifestyle very serious. I just havent met one yet.


 
I always thought the Amish were all these skilled craftsman until I saw a chicken coop they built. I have never seen such a boogered up job before. A person would almost just have to see it to appreciate what a mess it was. The guy delivering the thing (it was not built on site) said he was embarrassed to haul the thing around.


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## treemandan (Apr 3, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> I always thought the Amish were all these skilled craftsman until I saw a chicken coop they built. I have never seen such a boogered up job before. A person would almost just have to see it to appreciate what a mess it was. The guy delivering the thing (it was not built on site) said he was embarrassed to haul the thing around.


 What did the Amish guy do? Drive his horse and buggy to Texas from Ohio to deliver it?
Yeah, them Amish, undercuttin, cell phone talking, Dewalt drill using, Bobcat driving SOB's! WTF?!! Never saw that coming.

Hey! What do you call an Amishman talking on a cell phone.


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## mckeetree (Apr 3, 2011)

treemandan said:


> What did the Amish guy do? Drive his horse and buggy to Texas from Ohio to deliver it?


 
No, they hired a freight company to deliver it. I think (could be wrong) I remember the driver saying it came from Pennsylvania. The people that bought the thing paid an outlandish price for it and then paid all that freight to get it. It was about 8x16 in size.


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## wampum (Apr 3, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I could regret saying this but .....Its not just mexicans..there are people around me who would include the Amish in the under cutting hack group. Believe it or not. More so in construction but I have ran into it with tree work as well. Last i checked they dont have to pay taxes and child labor laws dont seem to matter either. They tend to fool people into never doubting they are highly skilled in whatever they are doing because....there Amish... Although, I will say that some Amish are skilled tradesmen who take there amish lifestyle very serious. I just havent met one yet.


 
Last year I helped a contractor I know replace a bad roof. We went in and took off the old roof and replaced all the rafters and put plywood down. We had other work to do there so he got an Amish crew to come in and put the shingles down. 
Honestly I was never so scared in my life,the one side of that roof was about 16 feet high the other went all the way to the foundation about 30 feet.That Amish guy came in and had one guy helping him the other 3 crew members were his kids aged 6 to 10.I was scared for those kids. can you imagine a 6 year old kid on that roof?
I live in Amish country and have a lot of Amish friends.Some are super talented and do good work.Others are not very talented and their work shows it.


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## tree md (Apr 3, 2011)

The bottom has totally fallen out around here on prices. Between the illegals and the idiots running around with Poulans trying to make beer money... It disgusts me. Sometimes I think about getting out of it but don't know what else I would do... I'm not a carpenter, landscaper, welder trying to be a tree man... I'm a tree man trying to be a tree man and make a fair wage. Trees are just about all I've ever done.


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## TreeAce (Apr 3, 2011)

wampum said:


> Last year I helped a contractor I know replace a bad roof. We went in and took off the old roof and replaced all the rafters and put plywood down. We had other work to do there so he got an Amish crew to come in and put the shingles down.
> Honestly I was never so scared in my life,the one side of that roof was about 16 feet high the other went all the way to the foundation about 30 feet.That Amish guy came in and had one guy helping him the other 3 crew members were his kids aged 6 to 10.I was scared for those kids. can you imagine a 6 year old kid on that roof?
> I live in Amish country and have a lot of Amish friends.Some are super talented and do good work.Others are not very talented and their work shows it.


 
I did see an amish roof crew last summer do a heck of a 2 story roof. It was all cut up with dormers, hips, and valleys. Five amish guys blew that roof out in one 90 degree day. They had done tear off n felt the day before. These guys were men, no children on this job. My only beef on that one would be the fact that they dont pay taxes. I could be wrong on this but I am pretty sure they are tax exempt.


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## TreeAce (Apr 3, 2011)

treemandan said:


> What did the Amish guy do? Drive his horse and buggy to Texas from Ohio to deliver it?
> Yeah, them Amish, undercuttin, cell phone talking, Dewalt drill using, Bobcat driving SOB's! WTF?!! Never saw that coming.
> 
> Hey! What do you call an Amishman talking on a cell phone.


 
You prolly already know this but....what they do is pay a driver with a truck/van to bring em to job. I have seen these drivers just sit there...all day..and then drive em all back to home. LOL...I saw a lady who hired amish to do her siding and some interior demo. The amish dude gave her a price per day for X# of workers. Lady thought driver should work to.....he laughed at her, I guess I dont blame him either. He told me he charged $225 for 1 hour each way (2 hours total driving) . He said this amish crew was using him 5/6 days aweek for almost a year! He would haul whatever they could safely put in van...tools,men,coolers...whatever. All cash for driver of course.


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## mckeetree (Apr 3, 2011)

tree md said:


> The bottom has totally fallen out around here on prices. Between the illegals and the idiots running around with Poulans trying to make beer money... It disgusts me. Sometimes I think about getting out of it but don't know what else I would do... I'm not a carpenter, landscaper, welder trying to be a tree man... I'm a tree man trying to be a tree man and make a fair wage. Trees are just about all I've ever done.


 
You are far enough south you have the same problem we do. I have talked to some other guys from Okla. that told me the tree business has gone to hell up there. I am located east of Dallas between Dallas and Tyler, TX. Both are sanctuary cities for illegals so you can imagine what we are dealing with. None of them have drivers license but if they get stopped they just let them go....no ticket. Our local ER is full of them on a constant and none ever pay a dime. I've got a friend in the business in Austin that tells me the problem is unimaginable down there.


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## wampum (Apr 3, 2011)

Around here all the local orchards always as far back as I can remember used Amish. Now every one i know of has brought Mexicans in.I guess the Mexicans are even under cutting the Amish.
LXT I live in Lawrence county right north of you,we really do not see many Mexicans around here but they are slowly coming in.
As far as the Amish working,they are good. We had an Amish family's house burn down(2 or 3 kids died). People gave a lot of donations in money and material.The Amish put up a new house in under 36 hours,they were like ants.


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## prentice110 (Apr 4, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> These Mexicans down here around me work for close to nothing. It's unbelievable.


 
Ive heard Texas horror stories, but up by me there not the worst. Theres only one co of Mexi's that are doing stoopid, but it doesnt bother me much cuz there around a third of my price on removals, but it takes em' 3-4 days of wood packing in pick ups when it only takes me 1, and there using 5-6 guys when I run 3. There killing themselves and there equipment(I see there truck at the mechanic all the time). Its the out of work contruction guys and crackhead drunx that are effin up it over here. Luckily, nobodies shopped me yet, but all who've called are regs, referals, or stuff booked last year that finally get the go ahead on. I pray for some of these hacks, Im waiting for news of one them getting hurt, or worse.


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 4, 2011)

I've been glad to make many amish friends throughout the years, and they are just like any other group, some good, some not so good, some they don't let out of the cellar.


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## boatman (Apr 4, 2011)

I just cut firewood part time, so I don't have much to ad other than the Amish do pay taxes. Just not SSI. 



"Just like the rest of us, the Amish are not exempt from life's two certainties -- death and taxes. However, there is a reason behind the persistent myth that the Amish do not pay taxes.
The Amish live within self-sufficient communities and do not collect Social Security, unemployment, or welfare benefits. According to their religious beliefs, paying Social Security, an insurance premium for the elderly, is tantamount to not "taking care of their own." Amish people who are self-employed are not obliged to pay Social Security tax, but they do still pay all other taxes, including property, income, and sales tax. If an Amish person decides to work outside of the community, he or she must also pay Social Security tax like any other American.

In 1955, the IRS extended the Social Security Act of 1935 to include farm operators. At the time, some Amish people immediately complied with the tax, while others conscientiously objected to it. Many felt that it violated the separation of church and state, some did not want to accept monies for government programs, and still others believed that paying a commercial insurance for the elderly went against their trust in God to take care of them.

The IRS and the Amish played a convoluted shell game for close to a decade, until it all came to a head with the seizure of a struggling farmer's horses in 1961. The Amish elders stuck firmly by their principles, and the ensuing media and community outrage over the incident led the IRS to relent four years later. Tucked away in the 1965 Medicare Bill was a clause exempting the "Old Order Amish" and other religious groups that conscientiously objected to paying insurance premiums from Social Security tax. To be exempt, the group or sect must have been established prior to 1950 and maintain reasonable provisions for their elderly."


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## treeman75 (Apr 4, 2011)

There are alot of mexs here working in packing houses. It seems people around here now what they get when they hire mexs. They do alot of roofing, havent seen too many doing trees.


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## TreeAce (Apr 4, 2011)

boatman said:


> I just cut firewood part time, so I don't have much to ad other than the Amish do pay taxes. Just not SSI.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for the info. So...they do pay taxes...kinda??


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## TreeAce (Apr 4, 2011)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I've been glad to make many amish friends throughout the years, and they are just like any other group, some good, some not so good, some they don't let out of the cellar.


 
Ya , I have only met a handful myself. I met an Amish man once and was invited to step into his house. It was really cool, like stepping back in time. His kids were playing with wooden toys and I remember hearing the gentle hiss of gas lamps on the ceiling. That guy actually turned himself in for shooting a deer that he realized was about 30 feet on his nieghbors property. 30 FEET!! He was in the woods with NOBODY around...except God. I was with the Game Warden of that county. I also met a chain smoking, beer guzzling, taxidermist "amish" guy who was NOT impressive at all. I also remember non amish folks complaining about amish wanting to use there phone and asking for rides to walmart. I guess it just takes all kinds...just like any other group of people.


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## climberjones (Apr 4, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> These Mexicans down here around me work for close to nothing. It's unbelievable.


 
Why cant the government see there killing us its simple math for every illigal ther is an americans job lost and i dont want tohear that there just doing jobs we dont want to do we just cant afford to do it for fifty bucks theres nothing personal or racist about it its just math!


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## weimedog (Apr 4, 2011)

climberjones said:


> Why cant the government see there killing us its simple math for every illigal ther is an americans job lost and i dont want tohear that there just doing jobs we dont want to do we just cant afford to do it for fifty bucks theres nothing personal or racist about it its just math!


 
Your kidding right? They absolutely do understand all that's implied and see another dependency class to perpetuate the BS started by Wilson & Roosevelt. Read your history! They don't care anything about you except that you work hard and pay taxes so they can provide for the dependency class...therefore buy votes to screw you with your money. Some day folks will figure this out. They don't like you.


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## prentice110 (Apr 4, 2011)

Come on! Theres more to it then that. They have the power cuz they (being the ones that came from old $) always have and always will. Its heirarcy bs and were all screwed cuz were there sheep. Were live stock with no power and were sissyes and completely unorganized. You know why the first amendment is such a good idea? Cuz as long as we have the right to sit around and ##### about it, we wont do any thing and never will. Thats why I laugh at these tea party people. Good luck with that, let me know how that works out for ya! Unless some martyr starts a full fleged revolution nothing will ever get done, and tell me, what are the chances of that hapening? So just do what I do , blind yourself with booze and hope for a quick painless death while you slowly rot like the rat on the wheel that you are.


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## climberjones (Apr 4, 2011)

weimedog said:


> Your kidding right? They absolutely do understand all that's implied and see another dependency class to perpetuate the BS started by Wilson & Roosevelt. Read your history! They don't care anything about you except that you work hard and pay taxes so they can provide for the dependency class...therefore buy votes to screw you with your money. Some day folks will figure this out. They don't like you.


 
Yes i was kidding im not delusional i know the government is #@$%^! up!


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## fishercat (Apr 4, 2011)

*People have been getting cheap for at least a couple years now.*

And our competition is giving in out of desperation. I can do other things so I have walked away from several lately.

Seems the nicer the neighborhood,the cheaper they are. Probably because the ones in the nice neighborhoods are maxed to the hilt on their credit.

I looked at one yesterday. The guy asked if he could hire a tow truck to winch it over. 

I reminded him of his gas line he wanted to drop it on and wished him luck.


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## airman (Apr 4, 2011)

fishercat said:


> Seems the nicer the neighborhood,the cheaper they are. Probably because the ones in the nice neighborhoods are maxed to the hilt on their credit.
> 
> I looked at one yesterday. The guy asked if he could hire a tow truck to winch it over.
> 
> I reminded him of his gas line he wanted to drop it on and wished him luck.


 
need the popcorn for that one


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## fishercat (Apr 4, 2011)

*no kidding.*



airman said:


> need the popcorn for that one


 
I'm wondering how he's gonna get that cable up in the tree.


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## pdqdl (Apr 4, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> ...They tend to fool people into never doubting they are highly skilled in whatever they are doing because....there Amish... Although, I will say that some Amish are skilled tradesmen who take there amish lifestyle very serious. I just havent met one yet.


 
I bought a custom built vanity from an Amish furniture store last year. It was about 3/4ths the cost of the Lowes "custom order" vanity that we got the plans from.

...Only the Amish version was built with solid cherry, instead of particle board.

...and the quality of the wood, workmanship, and finish is impeccable.


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## lxt (Apr 4, 2011)

what it is going to come down to is americans making a stand, we cant create enough jobs for those without let alone our children in college/trade schools.

Now we have to create jobs for illegals??????? hell no!

the post about dependent types is so true, take our money to provide for those who sit on their azzes & want to do nothing!! buy votes, etc... & the illegals are bought for voting purposes, so why not let them stay........idiots as politicians.....gotta love it uh?



LXT..............


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## Grace Tree (Apr 4, 2011)

I live in an Amish community. Bad construction around here is referred to as "slop-Amish" for good reason. If you've had a good experience with Amish workmanship or Amish people then great. My lifetime of experience is much different.
Phil


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## pdqdl (Apr 4, 2011)

I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that the Jamesport, Mo. furniture store placed the order with Ohio-Amish furniture builders. There are a lot of them up there, as you probably know.

The store I went to was filled with pretty high priced "built for a lifetime" furniture. We plan to buy more, especially since they beat the box store price for an unusual size cabinet.


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## deevo (Apr 4, 2011)

lxt said:


> At first it seemed as though people were truly choosing proper tree care & not minding the higher price tag that goes with such, lately I have hit a small group who is only concerned with the price.........The cheapest price!!
> 
> were still very busy & work is coming in but the job I bid yesterday was a 70-80ft stone dead elm bout 3ft dbh, hanging over her prize cork screw willow, a shed, a driveway & several arborvitae in a landscape setting........! I give her my price:
> 
> ...


 
Wow, that's retarded. I think you gave her a decent price. I would not touch it for anything less. We've been getting so many calls, I don't have time to haggle. It's my price and that's it. don't waste my time while I could be looking at other jobs. We have a lot of pop up pickup truck 1 saw Wild thing tards going thru here as well. Don't have a clue what insurance is.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 4, 2011)

lxt said:


> At first it seemed as though people were truly choosing proper tree care & not minding the higher price tag that goes with such, lately I have hit a small group who is only concerned with the price.........The cheapest price!!
> 
> were still very busy & work is coming in but the job I bid yesterday was a 70-80ft stone dead elm bout 3ft dbh, hanging over her prize cork screw willow, a shed, a driveway & several arborvitae in a landscape setting........! I give her my price:
> 
> ...


and the bad thing is, she probably votes also..............

and the illegals are killing us here also and most likely getting gov assistance to boot....


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## mckeetree (Apr 5, 2011)

lxt said:


> what it is going to come down to is americans making a stand, we cant create enough jobs for those without let alone our children in college/trade schools.
> 
> Now we have to create jobs for illegals??????? hell no!
> 
> ...


 

The deal with the illegals has gotten out of control. If something doesn't give and soon we are going to have public outrage to the point the Gov. is forced to act.


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## Natewood (Apr 5, 2011)

I'd rather get underbid by a competent illegal than a clueless crackhead or drunk which is our biggest problem around here... we have some huge migrant camps up here but they never really show up in the tree work... closest I see is landscaping.
And remember, demand creates supply. These people wouldn't come here if there was no work or anyone willing to hire them.In my area we cant find good help bc strong intelligent people are nonexistent.If they're smart they have desk jobs, if they're strong and stupid they're roofers.even the laborers around here have a problem getting dirty...


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## Natewood (Apr 5, 2011)

But i'm sure the problem is a little different in the south so close to the point of entry... The ones that make it across the border, and then travel another 2000 miles north are pretty ambitious


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## FanOFatherNash (Apr 5, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> They tend to fool people into never doubting they are highly skilled in whatever they are doing because....there Amish.


 
Going out to bid a few jobs this morning dressed like an amish, will let you know how it goes...

I use to have alot of respect for them until i found out that " homemade amish bread " was pre made cosco dough pawned off as amish bread


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## THE BUFFALO (Apr 5, 2011)

How much would u quote for a 90 ft euco and 2.5 ft butt diameter in a garden to be lowered


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## Natewood (Apr 5, 2011)

THE BUFFALO said:


> How much would u quote for a 90 ft euco and 2.5 ft butt diameter in a garden to be lowered


 
100:hmm3grin2orange:
Thats something a customer would ask, someone in the business should know better!


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 5, 2011)

I must be on a different planet because here I don't get underbid by illegals Its more like laid off retards with a truck and saw or the famous weekend warriors line clearance workers , and I would say that the east and west coast are more saturated with "ILLEGALS" than the middle , I think that your going after the wrong type of people , maybe if people had more respect for the profession as a whole the undercutting would stop .. OR maybe a municipal or state license , I'm just saying ... The low ballers are just turning money and if there happy with that than nothing is gonna stop them ..


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## TreeAce (Apr 5, 2011)

FanOFatherNash said:


> Going out to bid a few jobs this morning dressed like an amish, will let you know how it goes...
> 
> I use to have alot of respect for them until i found out that " homemade amish bread " was pre made cosco dough pawned off as amish bread


 
LOL..yep sounds about right. There was an amish dude not to far from me who got "busted" for doing the same thing with honey and jelly. He bought it in big cans , bought little jars and made some labels...and BAM! Amish honey.....Said so right on the label....He didnt get in any trouble but he was asked to stop by someone of authority cuz some other non amish store owners were pissed.


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## mckeetree (Apr 5, 2011)

Natewood said:


> But i'm sure the problem is a little different in the south so close to the point of entry... The ones that make it across the border, and then travel another 2000 miles north are pretty ambitious


 
You damn right it's worse down here. You guys up there have no idea what we are having to deal with here. Someone mentioned like another planet or he must be on another planet or something, yeah, it's like another plant...planet mexturdian.


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## pdqdl (Apr 5, 2011)

You guys with Amish problems must be dealing with a more competitive market for that kind of services. Around here (and you must drive a long way out of town to find them), they are well mannered, quiet folks with enormous dignity and respect for folks with other beliefs. They have been very straight forward in their business dealings with me, and I think that they have a very good approach to solving life's problems.

I suspect that you guys with problems have not been dealing with very true believers.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 5, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> You damn right it's worse down here. You guys up there have no idea what we are having to deal with here. Someone mentioned like another planet or he must be on another planet or something, yeah, it's like another plant...planet mexturdian.


 I've been there , didn't drink the water though .... Do you have BRICKMAN down there ?


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 5, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> You guys with Amish problems must be dealing with a more competitive market for that kind of services. Around here (and you must drive a long way out of town to find them), they are well mannered, quiet folks with enormous dignity and respect for folks with other beliefs. They have been very straight forward in their business dealings with me, and I think that they have a very good approach to solving life's problems.
> 
> I suspect that you guys with problems have not been dealing with very true believers.


Exactly around here the bikers speak very highly of AMISH meth....


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## Grace Tree (Apr 5, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> You guys with Amish problems must be dealing with a more competitive market for that kind of services. Around here (and you must drive a long way out of town to find them), they are well mannered, quiet folks with enormous dignity and respect for folks with other beliefs. They have been very straight forward in their business dealings with me, and I think that they have a very good approach to solving life's problems.
> 
> I suspect that you guys with problems have not been dealing with very true believers.


OK. This is one of the few things in life that gets me fired up. I've lived in the second largest Amish community in Ohio all my life and that's all I'll comment on. If you have some real nice Amish folks way out in the country then consider yourself lucky. Here's what we have and I'll be happy to document everything with stats and pictures if you think it's BS. Tons of nice steamy horse crap dumped on our village streets 365 days a year. And I mean tons. Town streets that are destroyed by steel wheeled buggies and horse shoes.
They make a donation to county road maintenance but compared to the destruction it's laughable. 15mph rolling hazards. Heavy burdens on social programs because of high numbers of retardation and other defects because of generations of inbreeding. There's two Amish guys within 3 miles on the Sheriff's sexual offender list. There would be many more but most of it goes unreported. They organize to defeat any school bond issues because they operate their own schools and graduate at the 8th grade which keeps most of them trapped in amishdom forever. They ignore construction codes, minimum lot sizes, labor laws......................and on and on. If you don't believe it, I'll be happy to send you a breeding pair. You can start your own community.
Phil


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 5, 2011)

And as far as MEXICANS being cheap labor , well thats a bunch of #### those guys do very well around here the average is 12/15 an hr for a ground man and 19/25 for a decent climber so is that cheap ????? I guess if your charging 100 an hour you at least make 25.00 for being the boss with all the headaches and bills ... Even with a recession/depression my phone never rings with guys hard up looking for a REAL HARD job for 12 an hour , there holding out for management positions , bottom line is Mexicans have been doing alot of our "bull" work since the 20's , if you don't believe me study the 1st depression and how we "witch" hunted them out of the fields and off our jobsites than allowed them all back again to fill all the #### job positions again ....If you filled our fields with white dudes (impossible) the fruit would rot on the tree and a pack of strawberries would be 30.00......


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 5, 2011)

THE BUFFALO said:


> How much would u quote for a 90 ft euco and 2.5 ft butt diameter in a garden to be lowered


 
Ha Ha!, I love trick questions. I am gonna say, $4,327.00.
Jeff :msp_rolleyes:


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## pdqdl (Apr 5, 2011)

I'll do it for $5477.00.

That would be for airfare, hotel, car rental, and $500 to come to the area and hire Jeff to do the job for $4,327.00. But I'll do a good job of supervising everything.



(While taking a much needed vacation in So.California!)


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## pdqdl (Apr 5, 2011)

Small Wood said:


> OK. This is one of the few things in life that gets me fired up. I've lived ...
> Phil


 
I'm sorry you don't care for them much. It's a radically different lifestyle, and it certainly isn't the norm in this country. I got no problems with the horse turds and wheel damage, and doubt that there is a big problem with heavy dependence on social programs from a community that they try to avoid participating in. Sex crimes are certainly not excluded from any social group, but I'll bet there are a lot more registered offenders within the same area that are not Amish.

I spent a little time with my wife doing inventory in warehouses (her job) in central Ohio, and I did not observe any significant difference from the Amish in our part of the world; but you are perhaps closer to the problems than I am.

Maybe you just don't like 'em, and whatever you see wrong with their society is worse from your perspective than from mine?


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## RVALUE (Apr 5, 2011)

wampum said:


> Around here all the local orchards always as far back as I can remember used Amish. Now every one i know of has brought Mexicans in.I guess the Mexicans are even under cutting the Amish.
> LXT I live in Lawrence county right north of you,we really do not see many Mexicans around here but they are slowly coming in.
> As far as the Amish working,they are good. We had an Amish family's house burn down(2 or 3 kids died). People gave a lot of donations in money and material.The Amish put up a new house in under 36 hours,they were like ants.



That's terrible, because they don't know how to cuss.....


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 6, 2011)

THE BUFFALO said:


> How much would u quote for a 90 ft euco and 2.5 ft butt diameter in a garden to be lowered


 
Okay if I dont have to cover it with my insurance, you clean up and I can live in your driveway in my van for the week.

$120 plus milage

$120 plus
18,000kms at 90c a km is $19920


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 6, 2011)

THE BUFFALO said:


> How much would u quote for a 90 ft euco and 2.5 ft butt diameter in a garden to be lowered


 
87 doll hairs


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 6, 2011)

RVALUE said:


> That's terrible, because they don't know how to cuss.....


 
They sure do, and some can rival a sailor. lol.


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 6, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Ha Ha!, I love trick questions. I am gonna say, $4,327.00.
> Jeff :msp_rolleyes:


 
I'll do it for a hundred dollars cheaper!!:greenchainsaw:


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## lxt (Apr 6, 2011)

Natewood said:


> But i'm sure the problem is a little different in the south so close to the point of entry... The ones that make it across the border, and then travel another 2000 miles north are pretty ambitious


 
thats whats sad......they`re ambitous & many companies are taking advantage of em.....they still make less per hr though & thats where it begins.......they`ll bring up the rest of the pack & then prices will tumble big time.

I think its sad that anyone would defend them & say they make an hourly rate that they dont......I doubt anyone working them even knows how to properly fill out the I-9 form..........!

I saw one post saying something about "only making" $100 an hr......to make more than that here & into parts of ohio is considered pretty good coin for the day......................., I dont care what the race or religion..........speak the language!, do good work!, pay taxes! & be a legal american citizen........if you dont fit that criteria.............we send you home & if you are a low ball bag employer who knowingly hires such types..........we guild you with barb wire & then shoot you for being an anti american jack wagon!



LXT...................


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 7, 2011)

Had my brush with low ballin it yesterday, bid one at 3g's, dead elm, to dead to climb. Told me other guys was at 1g, I said not possible. HO asks if he cant complete job, will I finish, nope, i dont clean up after anybody. 
He ask if price is final, I said yes, well, he needs to go with the climber. WHAT!!! HE'S GONNA CLIMB IT?? HE CANT, HE WILL DIE!!
dude looks at me and says I'm just saying it to get the job. other guy is young kid, gonna call him today and ask him WTF? 
Dont care about the job, care that this kid is gonna do it, cause he needs the money, gonna try and intervene, gonna work something out so he dont climb it, cant let it happen.
This is nuts! the HO could care less if someone gets hurt, his response "his life, not mine, hahaha" freakin jackwagon. Might cause some ruckus and loss a client, dont care, kid needs to be protected, hack or not.


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 7, 2011)

sorry bout the grammar, broken finger!


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 7, 2011)

Well the moral of this story is the only cheap "MEXICANS" are the ones that I still haven't found and wish I could maybe I could compete with all the "LOW BALLING" jackwagon types who are working for 800/900 bucks a day , hell we get 1100.00 a day to work as subs prepping flower beds for mulch ....25 an hour per man and 30.00 per man to install mulch , I just realized after reading previous posts how truly lucky I am , thanks for opening my eyes ...


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 7, 2011)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I'll do it for a hundred dollars cheaper!!:greenchainsaw:


 
And I will do it for $20 cheaper than yours and toss in a slightly used blow dryer to sweetin the deal ....


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 7, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Had my brush with low ballin it yesterday, bid one at 3g's, dead elm, to dead to climb. Told me other guys was at 1g, I said not possible. HO asks if he cant complete job, will I finish, nope, i dont clean up after anybody.
> He ask if price is final, I said yes, well, he needs to go with the climber. WHAT!!! HE'S GONNA CLIMB IT?? HE CANT, HE WILL DIE!!
> dude looks at me and says I'm just saying it to get the job. other guy is young kid, gonna call him today and ask him WTF?
> Dont care about the job, care that this kid is gonna do it, cause he needs the money, gonna try and intervene, gonna work something out so he dont climb it, cant let it happen.
> This is nuts! the HO could care less if someone gets hurt, his response "his life, not mine, hahaha" freakin jackwagon. Might cause some ruckus and loss a client, dont care, kid needs to be protected, hack or not.


 
My hats off to you..

...if that kid gets hurt or killed and has no insurance.......which it isn't likely he does....then the HO is potentially liable, yes? I would remind him of that.


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## lxt (Apr 7, 2011)

wampum, thanks for the Likes!!! ya gotta love hearing the stories of companies making $1000`s a day & using mexican labor......LMFAO

and they want us to belive they`re paying em good wages....BWaaaahahahah, it must be a game to some companies??

Ill bet you my 3 illegals against your 2 that I can get more done (BTW how much you payin em?)........? its like the wild west instead of hearding cattle I guess we gotta learn how to heard some mexicans!

any company that considers themselves lucky, good, blessed or whatever & has illegals on the pay roll.......that company is lowely as the bowel movement of a rat......wait! they`re not illegal, I just pay em under the table, LOL



LXT...............


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## lxt (Apr 7, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> And I will do it for $20 cheaper than yours and toss in a slightly used blow dryer to sweetin the deal ....


 

Nah, ya gotta beat em by $50 dollars & throw in a toaster .......thats the only way to compete with a mexican hiring, non tax reporting, wannabe, worthless low ball hack company!!!!!! 

pssst........then you can legally make 6 figures a year & have a legal, tax paying workforce............!



LXT............


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Apr 7, 2011)

*illegals*

The government keeps the illegal around for what purpuse? Oh when the goverment shuts down on Friday midnight. Orders are in place to stop pay to the Military men and women. There will be a lot more lowball competition out there soon. Thank Oboma and the dems for thrusting more competion on market. Work for the military and not get payed? And we are worried about mexican lowballers. The problem starts much higher up. If ya know what I mean. The lower probem will never leave till the upper problem leaves. Good luck this year to all!!!


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## ropensaddle (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't blame the illegal's for wanting a better life but our politicians for allowing this circus. I have a video of a job I bid of three illegals climbing bare foot, no rope except a ski rope for limbs and cutting with a machete! They had no saddle either. I contacted the city manager and chewed ass but nothing was done. What everyone needs to do is; quit paying tax until them sob's get the idea!


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 7, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I don't blame the illegal's for wanting a better life but our politicians for allowing this circus. I have a video of a job I bid of three illegals climbing bare foot no rope except a ski rope for limbs and cutting with a machete! They had no saddle either I contacted the city manager and chewed ass but nothing was done what everyone needs to do is quit paying tax until them sob's get the idea!



Well, Duh!
Next time you should use a comma, (,) and a period (.) and don't forget the (?). :hmm3grin2orange:
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Apr 7, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Well, Duh!
> Next time you should use a comma, (,) and a period (.) and don't forget the (?). :hmm3grin2orange:
> Jeff


 
Lol, yeah, well, whatever


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 7, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol, yeah, well, whatever


 
LOL! I put a comma between well and whatever for ya! Ha!
Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (Apr 7, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> LOL! I put a comma between well and whatever for ya! Ha!
> Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:


 
Well then with my creativity and your punctuation, we should be able to scribble a best seller


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 7, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Well then with my creativity and your punctuation, we should be able to scribble a best seller


 
We would be quite the team!
Jeff


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## treemandan (Apr 7, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Had my brush with low ballin it yesterday, bid one at 3g's, dead elm, to dead to climb. Told me other guys was at 1g, I said not possible. HO asks if he cant complete job, will I finish, nope, i dont clean up after anybody.
> He ask if price is final, I said yes, well, he needs to go with the climber. WHAT!!! HE'S GONNA CLIMB IT?? HE CANT, HE WILL DIE!!
> dude looks at me and says I'm just saying it to get the job. other guy is young kid, gonna call him today and ask him WTF?
> Dont care about the job, care that this kid is gonna do it, cause he needs the money, gonna try and intervene, gonna work something out so he dont climb it, cant let it happen.
> This is nuts! the HO could care less if someone gets hurt, his response "his life, not mine, hahaha" freakin jackwagon. Might cause some ruckus and loss a client, dont care, kid needs to be protected, hack or not.


 
Dam, its all on up your way.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 8, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> 87 doll hairs


 
Well here you would be lucky to get a grand for a large tree cut, cleaned up and stump ground


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 9, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I don't blame the illegal's for wanting a better life but our politicians for allowing this circus. I have a video of a job I bid of three illegals climbing bare foot, no rope except a ski rope for limbs and cutting with a machete! They had no saddle either. I contacted the city manager and chewed ass but nothing was done. What everyone needs to do is; quit paying tax until them sob's get the idea!


 
Thats actually quite impressive , bare foot with a ski rope removing trees it almost makes ya feel like a p###Y to complain about how hard your day was when you have shoes and 3 strand .....


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 9, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Dam, its all on up your way.


 
Not really! Kid wont answer the phone, tree still stands, so who knows! Left a voice mail with him, I am hoping he thinks about what he is about to do, if he does it!


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## ropensaddle (Apr 9, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Not really! Kid wont answer the phone, tree still stands, so who knows! Left a voice mail with him, I am hoping he thinks about what he is about to do, if he does it!


 
I have climbed too many dead trees it ain't funny, some I did years ago I would not climb now! Ulmus really was one of the less spooky imo. Now dead liquidambar blows chunks


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 9, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Had my brush with low ballin it yesterday, bid one at 3g's, dead elm, to dead to climb. Told me other guys was at 1g, I said not possible. HO asks if he cant complete job, will I finish, nope, i dont clean up after anybody.
> He ask if price is final, I said yes, well, he needs to go with the climber. WHAT!!! HE'S GONNA CLIMB IT?? HE CANT, HE WILL DIE!!
> dude looks at me and says I'm just saying it to get the job. other guy is young kid, gonna call him today and ask him WTF?
> Dont care about the job, care that this kid is gonna do it, cause he needs the money, gonna try and intervene, gonna work something out so he dont climb it, cant let it happen.
> This is nuts! the HO could care less if someone gets hurt, his response "his life, not mine, hahaha" freakin jackwagon. Might cause some ruckus and loss a client, dont care, kid needs to be protected, hack or not.


 
I can appreciate your concern first off , with that being said I would let the idiot "try" to take the tree down his way , and what happens happens but it sounds like even getting into the kids head won't change the HO's mind much he wants "cheap" and that's that , and not that I am advocating unsafe work practice but you can't save the world , stupid is an incurable disease .......I've seen guys climb in trees that I don't even wanna park my truck along side ....


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## GLOBOTREE (Apr 9, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> I can appreciate your concern first off , with that being said I would let the idiot "try" to take the tree down his way , and what happens happens but it sounds like even getting into the kids head won't change the HO's mind much he wants "cheap" and that's that , and not that I am advocating unsafe work practice but you can't save the world , stupid is an incurable disease .......I've seen guys climb in trees that I don't even wanna park my truck along side ....


 I most certainly disagree, stupid is not an uncurable disease, if you want to make a difference then try intervening this way, show up and save the kid from certain death or serious injury and then give him a lesson in business, cut him in$ and try your damnest to be a fair and good mentor. Show the kid that co-operation is a cure for stupid.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 9, 2011)

GLOBOTREE said:


> I most certainly disagree, stupid is not an uncurable disease, if you want to make a difference then try intervening this way, show up and save the kid from certain death or serious injury and then give him a lesson in business, cut him in$ and try your damnest to be a fair and good mentor. Show the kid that co-operation is a cure for stupid.


 
I don't think showing up on a HO's property is nor the time or place to educate another individual on business and such , he estimated the work and was chosen for the job because of price so whats gonna change ? I refuse to support such carelessness on the part of the worker and the HO who obviously advocates doing something completely unsafe and has no idea about things that are of importance like INS. and safety .. Its a tough lesson to learn ..Its just my opinion , and yours opinion is valid as well ..


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## Natewood (Apr 9, 2011)

I think the respect of human life and well being has to trump the idea of knowingly and willingly allow someone to potentially maim or kill themselves for the sake of eradicating lowballing competition


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## ropensaddle (Apr 9, 2011)

Natewood said:


> I think the respect of human life and well being has to trump the idea of knowingly and willingly allow someone to potentially maim or kill themselves for the sake of eradicating lowballing competition


 
I think I would have to see the tree to agree. I have climbed a million dead trees some I should not have climbed but managed to do them. Careful probing and inspection is paramount but if after I determined it safe for me to climb and someone showed up at "MY job" they would get shown the road quick.


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## Natewood (Apr 9, 2011)

i had a similar situation happen to me last seaon....workin on a huge maple, neighbor comes over asks for a quote.40"english walnut removal in backyard growing in a four foot area betwwen the garage and powerlines/fence.tree had some decay but grew all through the wires and over the garage and adjoining properties.We agree on a price,(800) and tell him I'll be over after my current job was finished to draw up the contract.By the time i got back, a guy with an s-10 with a 24ft ladder 5/16 utility line and a 024 with a 16' bar.HO tells me he's sorry but these guys were cheaper.He said they were roofers and gonna work on it after work for the next couple of weeks and put the debris on the curb for the city to pick up. now if it was even remotely possble for these guys to accomplish this,I wold've just walked awawy.i try to talk to the guys working,in a nice manner like"how do you plan on getting to the top?" "how are you gonna take down a 75ft tree with forty ft of rope?""how are you gonna stay attached to the tree while cutting?
",and "how are you going to cut those 28"leaders with a 16" saw?"
They prettty nuch said they were stubborn and persistent and would get it done. So, I tried talking to the HO. I explained that with the equipment they had it was impossible to remove the tree and an inement duisaster. And that without ins. he would probably be sued after they injured themselves Wel no one wanted to hear it and the next day i get the call.Within an hour after i left the were still working on the first branch,a 20in lateral.They hung it on their"rope" and the guy stands in the crotch and cuts it.The guy on the ground can't even hold the branch, itcomes down takers the service line down to the house ,springs back and slams the guy in the tree and knocked down his ladder.Broke his arm and a bunch of ribs and the fire dept had to get him down. The Ho wanted to sign the contract now and date it for the previous day. I said NO WAY.

But I can't help but feel a lil responsible for this injury bc i could have taken a much stronger stance to protect his well being. Being a storm chaser for years,I've seen more than my fair shair of fatalities, and i try to dedicate myself to not letting people die if i can help it. to let someone do it just bc they are stupid enough to try is a complete disregard for human life.I hope People that say "they'll learn a lesson the hard way" or"they had it coming" can sleep at night.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 9, 2011)

Natewood said:


> i had a similar situation happen to me last seaon....workin on a huge maple, neighbor comes over asks for a quote.40"english walnut removal in backyard growing in a four foot area betwwen the garage and powerlines/fence.tree had some decay but grew all through the wires and over the garage and adjoining properties.We agree on a price,(800) and tell him I'll be over after my current job was finished to draw up the contract.By the time i got back, a guy with an s-10 with a 24ft ladder 5/16 utility line and a 024 with a 16' bar.HO tells me he's sorry but these guys were cheaper.He said they were roofers and gonna work on it after work for the next couple of weeks and put the debris on the curb for the city to pick up. now if it was even remotely possble for these guys to accomplish this,I wold've just walked awawy.i try to talk to the guys working,in a nice manner like"how do you plan on getting to the top?" "how are you gonna take down a 75ft tree with forty ft of rope?""how are you gonna stay attached to the tree while cutting?
> ",and "how are you going to cut those 28"leaders with a 16" saw?"
> They prettty nuch said they were stubborn and persistent and would get it done. So, I tried talking to the HO. I explained that with the equipment they had it was impossible to remove the tree and an inement duisaster. And that without ins. he would probably be sued after they injured themselves Wel no one wanted to hear it and the next day i get the call.Within an hour after i left the were still working on the first branch,a 20in lateral.They hung it on their"rope" and the guy stands in the crotch and cuts it.The guy on the ground can't even hold the branch, itcomes down takers the service line down to the house ,springs back and slams the guy in the tree and knocked down his ladder.Broke his arm and a bunch of ribs and the fire dept had to get him down. The Ho wanted to sign the contract now and date it for the previous day. I said NO WAY.
> 
> But I can't help but feel a lil responsible for this injury bc i could have taken a much stronger stance to protect his well being. Being a storm chaser for years,I've seen more than my fair shair of fatalities, and i try to dedicate myself to not letting people die if i can help it. to let someone do it just bc they are stupid enough to try is a complete disregard for human life.I hope People that say "they'll learn a lesson the hard way" or"they had it coming" can sleep at night.


 
Yeah that is a definite disaster waiting to happen. I had three barefoot machete yielding ski rope no saddle illegals that was worse though, gotta wonder about a home owners logic hiring someone like that?


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## mckeetree (Apr 9, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah that is a definite disaster waiting to happen. I had three barefoot machete yielding ski rope no saddle illegals that was worse though, gotta wonder about a home owners logic hiring someone like that?


 
They hire them because they are dirt cheap. But don't think they can't sue you if they get hurt, at least in Texas they can. We carry ins. on our employees and I try to use that as a sales tool but some folks could care less. An illegal got hurt on a job (it was an all illegal company) near me two years ago and sued that guys nuts off. He (the illegal) got some lawyer in Dallas and I mean they have kicked this guys sack off. In Texas your HO liability part doesn't have to pay if it's a "contractor" that sues you. See, in Texas, that is the problem....they let ANYBODY be a contractor.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 9, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> They hire them because they are dirt cheap. But don't think they can't sue you if they get hurt, at least in Texas they can. We carry ins. on our employees and I try to use that as a sales tool but some folks could care less. An illegal got hurt on a job (it was an all illegal company) near me two years ago and sued that guys nuts off. He (the illegal) got some lawyer in Dallas and I mean they have kicked this guys sack off. In Texas your HO liability part doesn't have to pay if it's a "contractor" that sues you. See, in Texas, that is the problem....they let ANYBODY be a contractor.


 
It was bad when I left Dallas in the eighties, I can only imagine it now.


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 10, 2011)

I will try and get over there to take a pic. I will tell u this, as I was looking at it, on the ground was a 10" dia branch that fell out a couple days before, so I am told by the HO, I picked it up and it broke into pieces with my hands! Tree should have been taken years ago.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 10, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> I will try and get over there to take a pic. I will tell u this, as I was looking at it, on the ground was a 10" dia branch that fell out a couple days before, so I am told by the HO, I picked it up and it broke into pieces with my hands! Tree should have been taken years ago.


 
Is it Chinese elm? Here the elms seem to petrify Ulmus Americana! Was there many conks at the base?


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 10, 2011)

You got it! Its at that stage! super light, yet still solid, but will crumble with the slightest pressure.
Good call!


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 10, 2011)

No conks, their may have been, but HO uses base as storage locker for junk, has a pile of crap all the way around it, looks like he was dumping oil there too. HO wanted the trunk left up about 10 feet so he could still use it to prop up all these metal bracket things he was painting. Tree had no chance when this guy moved in. Not sure how long it has been dead, he tried telling me it has not been that long, B.S.! Id say 5 years, but just guessing


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## ropensaddle (Apr 10, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> You got it! Its at that stage! super light, yet still solid, but will crumble with the slightest pressure.
> Good call!


 
Sounds like Chinese elm, hell their brittle green, willow like:jawdrop:


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## mckeetree (Apr 10, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> It was bad when I left Dallas in the eighties, I can only imagine it now.


 
I went into business for myself in Feb. of 1986 and I remember some problems back then but not much. It seemed to really start to get worse around '96 and progressed steadily until the present.


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## prentice110 (Apr 11, 2011)

Lowballing and current conversation aside, what do you guys think this season will be like? Same as the last 2, better?, worse? I think the fuel price is gonna kick me in the balls like it did in 07'.


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## prentice110 (Apr 11, 2011)

GLOBOTREE said:


> I most certainly disagree, stupid is not an uncurable disease, if you want to make a difference then try intervening this way, show up and save the kid from certain death or serious injury and then give him a lesson in business, cut him in$ and try your damnest to be a fair and good mentor. Show the kid that co-operation is a cure for stupid.


 
chances are this kid doesnt give a flying fig newton about trees, tree work or anything except how hes going to pay his rent this month, or how hes going to fill his pipe. Probly some out of work constuction guy. Theyve been running amuck the last 2-3 years. Getting to be worse than the illeagals by me. Mexico is the least of my problems. Every established landscaper is now a 'tree company'. Any idiot with a wild thing and something that resembles a pick up truck is a 'tree guy'.


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## TreeAce (Apr 11, 2011)

prentice110 said:


> Lowballing and current conversation aside, what do you guys think this season will be like? Same as the last 2, better?, worse? I think the fuel price is gonna kick me in the balls like it did in 07'.


 So far so good for me. Def better than last year. I am def worried about fuel prices but not to much cuz I have been able to keep most of my work pretty darn close to home. I hope it stays like that. I have politely turned down giving some estimates because they were to far. For me "to far" is 40 minute and over. Even 30 min is pushing it. Just not worth my time and gas for a chance I wont get the job anyway.


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## mckeetree (Apr 11, 2011)

prentice110 said:


> Lowballing and current conversation aside, what do you guys think this season will be like? Same as the last 2, better?, worse? I think the fuel price is gonna kick me in the balls like it did in 07'.


 
For me, I think worse.


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## tree MDS (Apr 11, 2011)

prentice110 said:


> Lowballing and current conversation aside, what do you guys think this season will be like? Same as the last 2, better?, worse? I think the fuel price is gonna kick me in the balls like it did in 07'.


 
I'm not expecting anything great. I don't think the economy is better at all yet. I agree, the $4.03 for 87 octane I payed this morning, probably aint gonna help either. It has been an exceptionally long and nasty winter here though, so things are off to a slow start for me. That said, the weather is finally getting nicer (supposed to hit 80 today maybe), and the phone finally ringing with some decent calls. Just had a decent customer call with some takedowns actually, so that's a good sign. Still not very optimistic, personally.


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## TreeAce (Apr 11, 2011)

4.03 a gal is SUCH BS....3.80 here. Personally, I am both surprised and grateful to be as busy as I am. The thing that kinda worries me about the price of gas is that it seems like people are just putting up with it more. Like...nobodys saing much..just saying like.."oh well" and "what u gonna do"..."cant do nothin". IDK what my point is...just sucks I know that. I havnt heard "car pool" lately...maybe thats what I am tryn to say.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 11, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> 4.03 a gal is SUCH BS....3.80 here. Personally, I am both surprised and grateful to be as busy as I am. The thing that kinda worries me about the price of gas is that it seems like people are just putting up with it more. Like...nobodys saing much..just saying like.."oh well" and "what u gonna do"..."cant do nothin". IDK what my point is...just sucks I know that. I havnt heard "car pool" lately...maybe thats what I am tryn to say.


 
I am still working on a hydrogen generator to boost my mileage it costs me 20 bucks to go to town


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## pdqdl (Apr 11, 2011)

Hydrogen is an outstanding fuel. Apart from it's ridiculously difficult and inefficient storage and handling requirements, it is an almost ideal fuel. It is pure, burns clean with exceptional energy release, and it is commonly available. 

Now here is the problem: it requires more energy to make it than it releases. So the only place it gets used is where it cannot be replaced with something better...like rocket fuel.

Now if someone can figure out a high current, low voltage, earth based electric power supply that can be used to separate water into O2 and H2, then all our energy problems will be over.

Capturing the voltage difference between the Atlantic and the Pacific comes to mind, or the voltage potential between deep earth magma and the cooler surface comes to mind, but these are nothing more than science fiction right now.


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## Mill_wannabe (Apr 11, 2011)

> Now if someone can figure out a high current, low voltage, earth based electric power supply that can be used to separate water into O2 and H2, then all our energy problems will be over.


 
This has been done, it just needs to be commercialized.
YouTube - Daniel Nocera describes new process for storing solar energy


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## ropensaddle (Apr 11, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Hydrogen is an outstanding fuel. Apart from it's ridiculously difficult and inefficient storage and handling requirements, it is an almost ideal fuel. It is pure, burns clean with exceptional energy release, and it is commonly available.
> 
> Now here is the problem: it requires more energy to make it than it releases. So the only place it gets used is where it cannot be replaced with something better...like rocket fuel.
> 
> ...


 
Boost generators can save a few mpg alternator pull is minimal in mpg. I have a friend that does it and it is saving him 3 mpg it is not stored it is burnt as its made!


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## pdqdl (Apr 11, 2011)

My dad used to swear that his cow magnets improved fuel economy too.

The bottom line is very simple: water separation is a 100% energy conversion. recombining oxygen and hydrogen yields exactly the same amount of energy that is required to separate them from water. 

...Minus the extra friction it takes to drive the alternator.


...minus the extra energy required to heat the windings with the current passing through the generator...and all the other intricate varieties of friction that prevent perpetual motion.


I suppose that introducing Hydrogen & oxygen to a fuel mixture might increase fuel efficiency somehow, but I would bet that it accelerates combustion and makes it knock; much like reducing the octane. I don't think anything (edit: _common_) burns faster than an o2-h2 fire. Actylene & cyclopropane burn very fast, and with more released energy, but not as FAST. That's why it makes such good rocket fuel.

Edit: Fluorine is more electro-negative, and chemically similar to oxygen. Fluorine reactions with hydrogen are probably faster, depending on the original formulation of fluorine. Elemental fluorine is so reactive, it practically does not exist in pure form. (also true for chlorine)


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## mckeetree (Apr 11, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> My dad used to swear that his cow magnets improved fuel economy too.
> 
> The bottom line is very simple: water separation is a 100% energy conversion. recombining oxygen and hydrogen yields exactly the same amount of energy that is required to separate them from water.
> 
> ...


 

I like my frogs legs real done sir.


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## pdqdl (Apr 11, 2011)

Too quick for me there, mckee. I don't get it.

...perhaps reference to geekdom and dissection in science lab? If so, 'tis true.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 12, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> My dad used to swear that his cow magnets improved fuel economy too.
> 
> The bottom line is very simple: water separation is a 100% energy conversion. recombining oxygen and hydrogen yields exactly the same amount of energy that is required to separate them from water.
> 
> ...


 
If it accelerates combustion then less fuel is needed right? In a carborated vehicle hydrogen through electrolysis injected under the throttle plates would reduce the needed fuel for propulsion right? Combining solar for electrolysis and incorporating an agitator in the generator to increase hydrogen output and passing it through a bubbler then into the carb is what I am planning. I have some good stainless for coils and I am going to have multiple and separate coils to increase production. probably like twelve coils in my generator battery then solar panels which I don't have yet lol. I will probably use a aquarium pump for agitator and oxygen. The idea is to conserve fuel not so much end it but it would be great to fill up with water lol


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## pdqdl (Apr 12, 2011)

Fuel efficiency is more than speeding up the combustion reaction. In internal combustion engines, it is more a case of improving the capture of the heat released, and burning completely to CO2 & water. This is why most big diesel engines are turbocharged.

Hydrogen and oxygen react super fast, and would only accelerate the combustion in the cylinder, thereby causing detonation, more commonly called "knocking" or "pinging".

Most of the modern techniques that I have learned about to improve engine efficiency involve swirl chambers and more/bigger valves to improve the mixing of oxygen and gasoline. Obviously, the computer controlled valve and ignition timing are going to help a lot, too.

Another trick that I think is becoming more utilized than in the past is a simple property of thermodynamics & engines: _the efficiency of an engine is directly related to the temperature difference between the combustion temperature and the exhaust temperature._ By improving the materials inside an engine to withstand higher combustion temperatures, it is relatively easy to capture more of the energy. This is why we keep hearing about the ceramic engines; they can take the heat, but they don't do so well with friction. You may also notice that radiator pressures and thermostat temperatures have gone up since the '70s? 

****************************************************
I think if you add any sort of contraption that creates a gas mix of hydrogen and oxygen in the same vessel, you are begging for an explosion. Even the slightest spark will set off a really big bang.

Ever have a battery explode on you? I have, and it was NOT fun either time it happened. Consider the damage done by an exploding battery, and that is only a couple of cups of explosive gas mix. Get a gallon or two to light up inside your engine compartment, and you will be dodging the airborne components of your fuel efficiency booster.
***************************************************

BTW: I was kneeling over one of the batteries that exploded. I was covered in battery acid, and the impact of the top of the battery HAMMERED me on the bottom side of my forearm. No water to wash off the acid with for miles, I was in quite a pickle...

Couldn't hear right for several days, either.


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 12, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Fuel efficiency is more than speeding up the combustion reaction. In internal combustion engines, it is more a case of improving the capture of the heat released, and burning completely to CO2 & water. This is why most big diesel engines are turbocharged.
> 
> Hydrogen and oxygen react super fast, and would only accelerate the combustion in the cylinder, thereby causing detonation, more commonly called "knocking" or "pinging".
> 
> ...


 
So, was that the topic of your next safety meeting?
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## pdqdl (Apr 12, 2011)

Doing some research; can't find any reasons to change my distrust of mpg gains:

Engine & fuel engineering - Hydrogen generator, a failure as you guys said


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## pdqdl (Apr 12, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> So, was that the topic of your next safety meeting?
> Jeff :msp_tongue:


 
Well...no. But I got a lot of respect from my thugs as to how I handled the situation.

I got a full refund at the battery dealer, no questions asked. I walked in toting the shattered remnants of the battery, looking freshly blown up myself and still covered with "washed down from battery acid", and I flopped the pile of pieces on the counter.

They coughed up a new battery as soon as they could confirm the brand name. They didn't even ask when I bought the battery.
**************************************************************************

I was out on a boulevard mowing when it blew up. I quickly drove down the road, looking for a pond, ditch, house with hose, gas station, ANYTHING! The first place I stopped was a run down used car place, the Indian/Pakistani operators told me their bathroom was closed. I didn't exactly take no for an answer, and then I discovered they had no functioning water. At all. Anywhere!

The only water in the building was the really foul toilet oop: (that would not flush ) and the sink filled with dirty water and about 50 cockroaches :shock: floating on the surface. So...I washed off the battery acid. 

Then I went to go see the company that sold me the battery!


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 26, 2011)

Wow I had a good one this last night at 630 pm I was at my daughters soft ball game and figured that I would call back in the morning , so I did just that at 9am I called the guy and he actually told me there was a company there working on the tree already amazing .... I have to speed up a bit to catch up with all the fast pace I guess ....


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## mitch95100 (Apr 26, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> These Mexicans down here around me work for close to nothing. It's unbelievable.


 
You know whats so great about mexicans working for you... if a tree falls on them no one cares lol


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## treeslayer (Apr 26, 2011)

mitch95100 said:


> You know whats so great about mexicans working for you... if a tree falls on them no one cares lol


 
you belong in jail, thinking like that. their family would.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 26, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> you belong in jail, thinking like that. their family would.


 
There was a guy killed at my buddies work , he was riding on the trailer tongue for some reason fell off and was killed , his family was taken care of without them asking , his brother stills works there and he was missed by all the guys there ,more than 120 , and he was a Mexican these guys who trash them and wish them harm are worse than the problem itself ..


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## treeslayer (Apr 26, 2011)

racism sucks.........:angry2:


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 26, 2011)

treeslayer said:


> racism sucks.........:angry2:


 
Hope he get's sent to band camp! What an Idiot.
Jeff


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## lxt (Apr 26, 2011)

WOW band camp............if there legally here? then Godbless them & welcome!

If their here Illegally............then, its open season!!! might be harsh but I know many from foreign countries (germany, ireland, england) who did it legal..........they not only had to, they wanted to!

so whoever it may be..........mexican, cuban, austrian.....you come here illegally.........it should be legal to shoot ya!

BTW........senior citizens????? think they deserve everything for free & while I cater to them out of respect......statistically they are one of Americas largest burdens (financially speaking)....MY point, I tried to tell one this after he haggled with me like a melon salesman............. whew wee he didnt like that!! funny thing is....it pizzed em off to the point he demanded to pay the full regular price for his tree, go figure!!!


LXT.............


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## mckeetree (Apr 26, 2011)

mitch95100 said:


> You know whats so great about mexicans working for you... if a tree falls on them no one cares lol


 
I don't want to see anybody get hurt.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 27, 2011)

Saw this fine looking crew on Easter Sunday.
Some how they managed to finally get this pc. down without installing a skylight.

Got to love the crazy notch and back cut and then the pull rope no where near high enough to get a good pull on it.


Thanks in advance if anybody could resize the pics for me.


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## RVALUE (Apr 27, 2011)

lxt said:


> WOW band camp............if there legally here? then Godbless them & welcome!
> 
> If their here Illegally............then, its open season!!! might be harsh but I know many from foreign countries (germany, ireland, england) who did it legal..........they not only had to, they wanted to!
> 
> ...



Now I know I am in trouble when this makes sense!


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 27, 2011)

ozzy42 said:


> Saw this fine looking crew on Easter Sunday.
> Some how they managed to finally get this pc. down without installing a skylight.
> 
> Got to love the crazy notch and back cut and then the pull rope no where near high enough to get a good pull on it.
> ...


 
They will!
Jeff


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