# Record American Elm



## NCTREE (Jun 20, 2009)

Does anyone know what the recent record is for the american elm? I recent ly looked at an elm that could very well be up there. Is their any info for this online?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> Does anyone know what the recent record is for the american elm? I recent ly looked at an elm that could very well be up there. Is their any info for this online?


Last I heard was in Kansas 23' I believe!


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## adamc (Jun 20, 2009)

NCTREE,

Try www.elmwatch.org

Adam


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## treeseer (Jun 20, 2009)

nice tree but no champ. you can still nominate it

http://www.americanforests.org/resources/bigtrees/register.php?sort=&startnum=180


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## moss (Jun 20, 2009)

Depends on how the tree is measured, American Forests weights crown spread and DBH more than height. American Forests also allows merged multi-trunk trees. There's a wild American Elm in Congaree National Park, South Carolina that was measured at 135' in 2000.

Here's the Eastern Native Tree Society's Eastern Tall Tree List, tallest and largest examples of primarily wild native trees in the east.
-moss


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 20, 2009)

yea we had bigger here tom trees


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## capetrees (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't know about elms but I definately worked on the largest wild cherry on Cape two weeks ago. Trunk was at least 4 feet around and as I entered the tree, I walked on two feet only till I was 20 feet off the ground. The limbs were 20" thich and were like walking up stairs. Really cool.


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## treeseer (Jun 21, 2009)

moss said:


> Depends on how the tree is measured, American Forests weights crown spread and DBH more than height.


Is there another formula?

link did not open for me.


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## moss (Jun 21, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Is there another formula?
> 
> link did not open for me.



Here are the ENTS measuring guidelines.

I was incorrect, the formula is the same. The difference is that ENTS are much more strict about not allowing the total CBH to be used for merged multi-trunk trees. The other major difference is height accuracy, the techniques recommended by American Forestry are notoriously inaccurate. 
-moss


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## Adkpk (Jun 21, 2009)

capetrees said:


> I don't know about elms but I definately worked on the largest wild cherry on Cape two weeks ago. Trunk was at least 4 feet around and as I entered the tree, I walked on two feet only till I was 20 feet off the ground. The limbs were 20" thich and were like walking up stairs. Really cool.



There's a black cherry at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens in the nature trail section that is a sight for any tree enthusiast to behold. It's as beat up as they get and only around 20' tall but the trunk is at least a 5' dia. Looks like something out of a fairy tale.


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## treeseer (Jun 22, 2009)

moss said:


> the techniques recommended by American Forestry are notoriously inaccurate.
> -moss


Nothing beats climbing up and dropping a tape measure.


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## moss (Jun 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Nothing beats climbing up and dropping a tape measure.



Exactly. ENTS do tape drop and ground-based clinometer/laser measurements (sine top, sine bottom method) and are consistent within inches for both approaches.
-moss


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## NCTREE (Jun 22, 2009)

Thanks for the info, it's not a record from what I can see but it still is a rare an beautiful tree. The owner wants it down. I am kind of dealing with the owner through a landscraper. I'm trying to talk them into saving it. I would feel really guilty cutting it down.


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## NCTREE (Jun 22, 2009)

moss said:


> Exactly. ENTS do tape drop and ground-based clinometer/laser measurements (sine top, sine bottom method) and are consistent within inches for both approaches.
> -moss



I measured it at DBH and it came to 58". It's about 80' tall and has a spread of about 75'. Very healthy tree except for the home owner do it yourself trim job of some of the lower branches.


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## tree md (Jun 22, 2009)

Why on earth would this guy want to remove that tree? Have you explained to him the demise of the American Elm and how rare it is to see a healthy one like that now (at least in my area)??? Maybe you could tell him how the tree adds to his property value. I deal with the same issue though. Had to take down three gorgeous Pin Oaks last Feb. because the guy didn't want to deal with the leaves... It was either do the job or let my competition do it who had already placed a competitive bid. What you gonna do...


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## NCTREE (Jun 22, 2009)

tree md said:


> Why on earth would this guy want to remove that tree? Have you explained to him the demise of the American Elm and how rare it is to see a healthy one like that now (at least in my area)??? Maybe you could tell him how the tree adds to his property value. I deal with the same issue though. Had to take down three gorgeous Pin Oaks last Feb. because the guy didn't want to deal with the leaves... It was either do the job or let my competition do it who had already placed a competitive bid. What you gonna do...



Like I said, i'm dealing indirectly with the custy through my landscraper/stump guy. I told him the info on the tree but its not the same as if I was doing the talking. The landscraper gets me alot of work and I really don't want to undercut him. I will probably refuse to cut it down if the custy decides to do so. Its like an $8000 dollar tree and I have a good feeling the custy doesn't have that kind of money.


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## moss (Jun 23, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> ...Its like an $8000 dollar tree and I have a good feeling the custy doesn't have that kind of money.



The only reason a lot of big yard trees are still standing is for that very reason.

You folks know how it is, once a homeowner gets it in their head that the tree is the cause for one of their "problems" (squirrels jumping on the roof, grass won't grow, trees are "dirty" etc etc.) they'll become obsessed with taking it down. Luckily the prospect of spending several grand stops them most of the time.
-moss


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## Kenzen (Jul 3, 2009)

*Record American Elm Tree*

I had understood at one time the record elm was on the Roaring Fork Nature Trail in the Smokies on the TN side. Look up great trees of the eastern United States or a site prepared by Will Blozan, an arborist who looks for the giant trees in the Smokies.


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## treeseer (Jul 4, 2009)

http://www.americanforests.org/resources/bigtrees/register.php?sort=&startnum=180


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## Kenzen (Jul 4, 2009)

Since a few people are talking about Black Cherry trees. You'll need to go off trail in the backcountry of the Smokies in some of the Old Growth Hemlock stands. You'll see some very large Black Cherry as well as Silverbell -- they have been some of the largest ones I've seen. We have be to busy working with the HWA on the Hemlocks to bring a DBH tape out.

ALso I had thought that one of the champion American Elms were off of the Roaring Forks nature trail on the Tennessee side of the Smokies. A good site would be the ENTS website or Will Blozan's webpage, he's really into finding the giants in the East


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## NCTREE (Nov 13, 2009)

*Update*

Trees is gone! The tree reaper man came along and chopped her down. What a shame, some people have no respect for unique and historic beauty. I wonder if it was worth the fat wallet. Egos must of been inflated like balloons after cutting that one down. I can see them talking about it now; "we are the men! f-ed that fat boy up!":bang:


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## ray benson (Nov 13, 2009)

There is both national and state registries of record trees. Here is one for Pennsylvania.
http://www.pabigtrees.com/trees/species/ulmus_elm.htm
http://www.pabigtrees.com/trees/bigtrees/species01.htm


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 13, 2009)

Well that sucks! When their a/c Bill is high and they are roasting under the summer sun hopefully they will realize the error of their ways. Bummer.... Mike


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## Adkpk (Nov 13, 2009)

Hmmm, I would have cut the house down and moved into the tree.:monkey:


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## TreeW?rx (Nov 13, 2009)

It is a crying shame to see a beautiful tree like that come down. But it happens every day. I had to drop an excellent specimen of Black Locust in this guys yard cause he "didnt like the seeds" in his yard. What a waste.


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## NCTREE (Nov 14, 2009)

this whole deal was scetchy from the beginning. I think my stump guy/landscaper set me up for failure. I told him to talk to the customer about the rarity of this tree and that he should talk them into a trim job. The guy is a :censored: retard and know nothing about trees. 
I could of sold the HO on a nice trim job, a little cabling, and even a little fert for less than it cost to take the tree down. He just wanted a fat wallet. I learned my lesson on this one; BURN YOUR BRIDGE BEFORE THE BRIDGE BURNS YOU!


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## NCTREE (Nov 14, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Hmmm, I would have cut the house down and moved into the tree.:monkey



The tree was worth more than the crappy house that lye under it


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## lego1970 (Nov 14, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> The tree was worth more than the crappy house that lye under it




That crappy house shelters the homeowners from the weather, provides a place to take a shower, watch TV, etc, etc. Aside from shade and property value the tree does nothing for the family. Now they don't have to worry about paying you to come out there and inspect the cables or clean the crown every few years, the tree falling on their crappy house because of a storm, or getting dutch elm disease after they have already payed you to cable and clean up the tree. It's ashame the old Elm is down but don't take it out on the Homeowner. If you feel their house is that crappy go tell them in person.

BTW Even though I still see large American Elms from time to time, that rare tree is rare for a reason.


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## NCTREE (Nov 14, 2009)

lego1970 said:


> That crappy house shelters the homeowners from the weather, provides a place to take a shower, watch TV, etc, etc. Aside from shade and property value the tree does nothing for the family. Now they don't have to worry about paying you to come out there and inspect the cables or clean the crown every few years, the tree falling on their crappy house because of a storm, or getting dutch elm disease after they have already payed you to cable and clean up the tree. It's ashame the old Elm is down but don't take it out on the Homeowner. If you feel their house is that crappy go tell them in person.
> 
> BTW Even though I still see large American Elms from time to time, that rare tree is rare for a reason.



BTW yes this tree is rare for a couple of reasons; it's old, it's very healthy, and resistant to DED. Large limbs have been stubbed off and have been dead for at least 5 yrs. If you know anything about DED then you know that the elm bark beetle's favorite breeding ground is deadwood.

If everyone thought like you then their wouldn't be old large trees to preserve and study. I found a bumper sticker today from Sherrill that said, "Hire an arborist leave Tom, ####, and Harry to cut the grass. The customer was not educated enough on this tree to make a decision based on the fact that the person giving him advice was not qualified to do so.

You forgot to mention that this tree is one big carbon storage factory, cleaning the crappy air around that crappy house which is located smack next to a very busy four lane road. Also the tree was cut a few months ago, and have noticed recently that the HO has the foundation dug up on all sides which indicates to me that he has water problems now. The house is at the bottom of a hill. I removed two Norway maples on the otherside of the house in late spring. Talk about energy consumption going up.


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## lego1970 (Nov 14, 2009)

I hear you about preservation, shade, water retainment, and all that stuff, and yes I know all about carbon storage and have mentioned it in other post here on this website. I'm just saying that the tree is old (possibly towards the end of it's life or maybe not) and it is susceptible to dutch elm disease, so while that may be a "crappy house" to you, the owner may not think so and wants to act on it now. Trying to cable and maintain an old Elm could be expensive and possibly just attract the fungus laden beetles anyway, especially if you were going to do this in the beetles active season. If the homeowner lives in a "crappy house" why would you think he has the money or wants to spend the money on constant maintenance of an old at risk tree. Besides, do you call all your potential customers homes "crappy" or just the ones that don't give you the business? I don't know about you but I get a lot of tree work from people that live in homes that are not $300k modern homes. I bet the guy that got the job wasn't calling the homeowners house "crappy" when he cashed that check at the bank.


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## NCTREE (Nov 14, 2009)

lego1970 said:


> I hear you about preservation, shade, water retainment, and all that stuff, and yes I know all about carbon storage and have mentioned it in other post here on this website. I'm just saying that the tree is old (possibly towards the end of it's life or maybe not) and it is susceptible to dutch elm disease, so while that may be a "crappy house" to you, the owner may not think so and wants to act on it now. Trying to cable and maintain an old Elm could be expensive and possibly just attract the fungus laden beetles anyway, especially if you were going to do this in the beetles active season. If the homeowner lives in a "crappy house" why would you think he has the money or wants to spend the money on constant maintenance of an old at risk tree. Besides, do you call all your potential customers homes "crappy" or just the ones that don't give you the business? I don't know about you but I get a lot of tree work from people that live in homes that are not $300k modern homes. I bet the guy that got the job wasn't calling the homeowners house "crappy" when he cashed that check at the bank.



I don't need you telling me how I can and can not talk. Stop trying to analyze everything I say so you can pick a fight with me because you have a problem with me. I was using "crappy" to make a point not to come down on a HO. My problem isn't with the HO it's with the landscaper who didn't give good info and advice first before considering removal.

The other tree guy that took the tree down probably didn't care enough to inform the HO on options.

I don't know how you can make an assumption that a tree is going to get DED. The area I live is near Valley Forge, PA which is known for having DED resistant elms, and their is treatments out that can defeat DED if it is caught early enough. If I was to to trim this tree I would of waited until winter when it's suitable for trimming. I would of took my chances on this tree staying healthy. This elm could have been alive for another 100 yrs, way past the HO lifespan. 

I wonder how much it's costing the HO to fix the water problem, that could get expensive. Lot of money that could of been put into the tree for maintenance. How often would I have to do maintenance on the cable job...every 5 years or so. A couple hundred bucks every so many years is a small price to pay for having such a rare tree.


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## TreEmergencyB (Nov 14, 2009)

^ yea you tell em 

shame to see it go one less big tree in PA great...


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## lego1970 (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. On some of your post, I agree, but on this post and a couple of your other post I don't agree with you and yes I guess it rubs me the wrong way when you call a modest house crappy becuase you didn't get the job. I can't tell you what to say, but likewise I have the right to disagree and post my thoughts. No big deal.


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## NCTREE (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok I get your point, I apologize if I offended you or anyone else in this forum with my adjectives. Just blowing off some steam. I will try to be more considerate of others when choosing my words. I here to learn and make friends like everyone else not to fight and bicker.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 30, 2009)

:jawdrop:
Woooo that's an amazing American Elm!! No sign of any bark beetle holes? If this is a naturally resist strain to the DED I would be interested in getting a clone... That's amazing. I just started a thread on Elms. Where is this?


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## NCTREE (Nov 30, 2009)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> :jawdrop:
> Woooo that's an amazing American Elm!! No sign of any bark beetle holes? If this is a naturally resist strain to the DED I would be interested in getting a clone... That's amazing. I just started a thread on Elms. Where is this?



Did you read the entire thread? the tree is gone, no one will be studying or getting clones or anything from this tree. Yes the tree was very healthy and showed no signs of DED.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 30, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> Did you read the entire thread? the tree is gone, no one will be studying or getting clones or anything from this tree. Yes the tree was very healthy and showed no signs of DED.



No I did not I have a hard time with reading. That's so sad I hope a plane crashed into their house then they would rather have a tree fall on it. So messed up, Elms like that should be straight up illegal to remove.


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## NCTREE (Nov 30, 2009)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> No I did not I have a hard time with reading. That's so sad I hope a plane crashed into their house then they would rather have a tree fall on it. So messed up, Elms like that should be straight up illegal to remove.



Now now we don't want to wish harm on anyone or property. 

You sound like you have passion for this profession which is a great thing, many people do this stuff but dont give a crap and don't care to learn. You should take that passion and use it to keep learning. Keep posting and asking questions in here, maybe take some classes. People from your area might be able to swing you in the right direction on where to take some local courses. Your state college might have a cooperative extension office that can give you info on seminars, and short courses. Check organizations like ISA.

I think if you really want to persue this career you should get work experience with a tree care business. This means you will probably have to learn to climb safely and get over your fears. Like I said their is only so much you can do on the ground. I hate to tell you this but yes you will have to cut trees down, it's just part of the job of being an arborist and as you gain knowledge you will see why.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 30, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> Now now we don't want to wish harm on anyone or property.
> 
> You sound like you have passion for this profession which is a great thing, many people do this stuff but dont give a crap and don't care to learn. You should take that passion and use it to keep learning. Keep posting and asking questions in here, maybe take some classes. People from your area might be able to swing you in the right direction on where to take some local courses. Your state college might have a cooperative extension office that can give you info on seminars, and short courses. Check organizations like ISA.
> 
> ...



:greenchainsaw:​


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## NCTREE (Nov 30, 2009)

I stated my case on this tree and now it's a done deal no need to live in the past on that one. The homeowner didn't have all the info to make a choice which I take partial responsibility for. You can't win them all and this business has a way of throwing it in your face, it just comes with the trade.


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## Groundman One (Dec 2, 2009)

We did an elm here in town that was a good five-feet across about three-weeks ago. People were complaining that the town was taking it down but it was 100% dead. Lots of the wood got taken by our saw mill buddy, saved us from having to haul it off. Me and my climber got several cords of firewood as well.

But never, in the twelve-years I've been with this company, have I see that much shnoot (our word for bark, rakings, assorted crap) come off of one tree. Just amazing.

The chick (very cute, by the way) across the street from the tree came out and took pics and burned them onto a CD for my climber. I think she was in love with him. I'll post some if I can get the CD from him.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 2, 2009)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> No I did not I have a hard time with reading. That's so sad I hope a plane crashed into their house then they would rather have a tree fall on it. So messed up, Elms like that should be straight up illegal to remove.


I agree, we protect all sorts of endangered species of animals. I am surprised that Ulmus americana) is not on any protected list
http://plants.usda.gov/java/threat?...efed=all&sort=sciname&submit.x=47&submit.y=10


> Symbol Scientific Name Common Name Federal Protected Status† State Protected Status†
> ULCR Ulmus crassifolia Nutt. cedar elm TN (SC)
> ULRU Ulmus rubra Muhl. slippery elm ME (PX), RI (SC)
> ULSE Ulmus serotina Sarg. September elm KY (SC)
> ULTH Ulmus thomasii Sarg. rock


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## PinkFloydEffect (Dec 2, 2009)

Groundman One said:


> We did an elm here in town that was a good five-feet across about three-weeks ago. People were complaining that the town was taking it down but it was 100% dead. Lots of the wood got taken by our saw mill buddy, saved us from having to haul it off. Me and my climber got several cords of firewood as well.
> 
> But never, in the twelve-years I've been with this company, have I see that much shnoot (our word for bark, rakings, assorted crap) come off of one tree. Just amazing.
> 
> The chick (very cute, by the way) across the street from the tree came out and took pics and burned them onto a CD for my climber. I think she was in love with him. I'll post some if I can get the CD from him.


*
Trees, cute girls, can this job get any better without drinking on the job? JK*



ROOTSXROCKS said:


> I agree, we protect all sorts of endangered species of animals. I am surprised that Ulmus americana) is not on any protected list
> http://plants.usda.gov/java/threat?...efed=all&sort=sciname&submit.x=47&submit.y=10



*Thankyou *


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## Groundman One (Dec 2, 2009)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> *
> Trees, cute girls, can this job get any better without drinking on the job? JK*
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, the cute girl could have been more interested in the handsome groundman than in the stupid climber.


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## NCTREE (Dec 2, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> I agree, we protect all sorts of endangered species of animals. I am surprised that Ulmus americana) is not on any protected list
> http://plants.usda.gov/java/threat?...efed=all&sort=sciname&submit.x=47&submit.y=10



I don't think Pa has a very good system for recording and identifying endangered species. Why Elm isn't on the list IDK, maybe I will have to get in touch with the state forest department.

That elm I guarantee was under 125yrs old, and could of lived for another 100 to 150 years. I think it had excellent conditions to survive.


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## pdqdl (Dec 3, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Nothing beats climbing up and dropping a tape measure.



I always wondered how that could be considered accurate. How many trees actually have a straight line drop available from the highest point down to the ground?

Any deviation from exactly straight adds height to the final figure that isn't any real part of the tree.


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## pdqdl (Dec 3, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> I agree, we protect all sorts of endangered species of animals. I am surprised that Ulmus americana) is not on any protected list...



They are still pretty common here in Kansas City. The huge, spectacular, "street lining" rows have been wiped out though.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Aug 16, 2011)

*This is all my unused B-roll of Herbie for the 2012 documentary "The War On Dutch Elm Disease"*

[video=youtube;SHGbyCJrV7k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHGbyCJrV7k[/video]


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## Adkpk (Aug 17, 2011)

Nice work Floyd. Whitney tree service, seemed to be a hell of a job.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Aug 17, 2011)

Adkpk said:


> Nice work Floyd. Whitney tree service, seemed to be a hell of a job.


 
Thank you, yeah a $20,000 job. I'm not a fan of Whitney they are not very nice people.


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