# Water or oil for bar tip lube on CSM?



## golddredgergold (Apr 2, 2013)

I am working on my CSM a bunch and making great progress. I am going to be finishing it up over the next 2 weeks. I am gathering parts for the bar tip lube system now. I was reading around the net and read a fellow using water to lube the chain on the tip end. I did a search here and cannot seem to come up with any solid answers. He says the water works wonders. My plan was to just add an oiler and drill the bar to run bar oil to the tip like you see in the "trick and tips" thread here. Water seems easy and not such a mess but with that said I feel it may not be good enough for bar and chain life. Any tips here would be great for those that have "been there done that". Thanks!


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## qbilder (Apr 2, 2013)

The fact that oil and water are incompatible, meaning they don't easily mix, is exactly why oil is such a fantastic lubrication for metal. Not only does it keep the metals separated at a microscopic level, but it repels water to protect the metal. Water on metal is bad news. Do NOT lube metal with water.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 2, 2013)

i use reg bar oil in the saw ,and winter grade (thinner) oil for the aux oiler ,it flows through the gravity feed hose better


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## golddredgergold (Apr 2, 2013)

This is exactly what I thought! I cannot see water working as a lube. Seems like a bad idea to be using the oiler in the saw for oil then water on the tip. Makes no sense. Here is a link if you guys have not already read this at some point. Scroll to the bottom to see the water luber setup.
TJ's Woodshop - Untitled


I am just going to stick to Bar Oil and thin if needed in the winter. I have a tank already and I will weld the brackets for it. I know water worked well on Band saw but seemed not so correct for chains saws. 

Thanks for the help! Back to work! I will post pix of my mill soon as it is done!


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## qbilder (Apr 2, 2013)

golddredgergold said:


> I know water worked well on Band saw but seemed not so correct for chains saws.



Yeah it's great for band blade lube, but band blades don't have links to lube & do not contact any other metal. The water acts as much as a cooler as it does lubing the cut. 

I have heard of vegetable oil being good for aux. oiling & it makes sense. I use a lot of vegetable base oil in machining as cutting fluid for metal on metal, and beezwax for metal on wood. But for all intents and purposes in chainsaws, bar & chain oil is likely best. It could probably even be thinned with diesel to enhance flow if absolutely needed but I would imagine that would only be noticeably helpful on very long bars.


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## sixteenacrewood (Apr 3, 2013)

I use canola oil as my bar lube in both the saw and the aux bar oiler. 
I read a response in a post here years ago recomending it. 

It has better lubricating qualities, flows in cold or hot weather, is cheaper by the gallon than bar and chain lube, and for an oil that sprays out on the ground, it does not polute. 

I've been using it for a year and a half now. I have an alaskan with a 56" bar that gets used regularly. 

cheaper, better lubricant, and non-toxic,


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## qbilder (Apr 3, 2013)

sixteenacrewood said:


> I use canola oil as my bar lube in both the saw and the aux bar oiler.
> I read a response in a post here years ago recomending it.
> 
> It has better lubricating qualities, flows in cold or hot weather, is cheaper by the gallon than bar and chain lube, and for an oil that sprays out on the ground, it does not polute.
> ...



Sounds good. Will look into that. Thanks for the tip


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## BobL (Apr 3, 2013)

I experimented with using water (a dribbling hose) at the auxiliary oil point on my CSMs while milling about 30 logs back in 2007. 

There is a whole thread on it here. http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/54307.htm

There are many benefits (see above thread) but over about 3 months I noticed a little (not a lot) more wear and tear on the bar and chain. If cost of replacing B&C was less of an issue I would definitely continue to use water because the other benefits are worth it. Some Lucas mill slabbers use water routinely but they also use lower chain speeds so they probably have less of a problem with B&C wear.

Canola oil is an interesting oil. It has a slightly higher (~15% higher) specific heat than mineral oil so it can carry away 15% more heat from the B&C BUT is has a much lower tackiness than B&C oil so using it in the saw means that it will be flung off at the drive sprocket and then at the bar nose, before it even has a chance of getting to the cutting side of the bar. Delivering canola on the cutting side of in of the bar in auxiliary oilers is fine because it does not need to go around any sprockets to be effective. If canola alone is use in a saw it should really have tackifiers added to it. On a CSM using canola in both the saw and aux oiler is fine although the canola in the saw will be largely wasted as much of it won't get around to the cutting side of the bar.

All Aussie B&C oil prices are ridiculously high. Stihl branded oil costs ~$25 a gallon, a "No brand" oil from a supplier I can trust and that makes it tacky to my specification costs me $14 gallon and Canola oil costs me about $11 a gallon (on special from the supermarket). After I run out of my current canola supply I will probably stick to the No brand oil.

BTW olive oil has an even higher specific heat than Canola but have not be able to find it cheaper than about $20 a gallon.


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## kpantherpro (May 22, 2013)

I was told about using pine sol and water in the auxiliary oiler from an old time miller, has to be real pine-sol not the generic stuff, it works really well and is alot cheaper than some of the other alternatives


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## BobL (May 22, 2013)

kpantherpro said:


> I was told about using pine sol and water in the auxiliary oiler from an old time miller, has to be real pine-sol not the generic stuff, it works really well and is alot cheaper than some of the other alternatives



I though pine sol was a detergent ad I can understand it being used on a bandsaw blade but I'm not sure about chains. If it was a real old time miller they were probably using a low revving (<6000 rpm) in the cut. B&C wear rises exponentially with rpm so even a 25% increase in rpm can add significant wear so good lube is needed to protect B&C at higher revs.


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## SDB777 (May 24, 2013)

kpantherpro said:


> I was told about using pine sol and water in the auxiliary oiler from an old time miller, has to be real pine-sol not the generic stuff, it works really well and is alot cheaper than some of the other alternatives



For use on a 'bandsaw mill', this works very well...but on a chainsaw, don't think I'd do it.


I use pin-sol and water mix pretty much all the time(very little pin-sol), but it does need to be removed quickly from the timber your cutting to keep it from staining.






Scott (maybe he was talking bandmill) B


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## kpantherpro (May 24, 2013)

it works for me for csm especailly on pitchy/ sappy woods with no staining, seems to keep everything alot cooler as well, just my experience


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## Mike Van (May 25, 2013)

Two different uses that I see. Lube for a chainsaw bar/oil, is actually lubing something, bar guide rails, chain links, sprocket nose. I would not use water for this. On a bandmill the lube is to keep pitch or resin from from sticking to the blade, the blade should need no lube to saw logs. I saw dry on my bandmill [locust, oak, pine, whatever] 99% of the time. Hickory [pecan] has a resin in the bark that will coat my blades after only a few boards without some form of drip on the blade. Any type of water, detergent, or oil will keep it off. Not a lot needed.


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## imagineero (May 25, 2013)

I have a hard time thinking that water by itself does much as a lubricant. As a coolant it works ok, but as a lubricant really not very well at all. Ever considered draining the oil out of your car and replacing it with water? I'm in the same country as BobL but on the other coast and we pay the same here too. I'm getting 20L (5gal) drums of stihl for $115, other brands (stein, husky etc) for $80~$90. $80 for 5 gal isn't too bad. Works out to be $16/gal or $4/L. I go through a 5 gal drum every month or so. I'd consider getting one of those big drums, but I've no dea where to buy it and transporting and storing it would be a pain. I don't think it would be a whole lot cheaper anyhow.

I see guys running all kinds of crap through their saws. Vege oil, used engine oil, gear oil, hydraulic oil, stuff out of diesels etc etc... most of it works ok, but not great and has shortcomings. Most of it stinks, and I imagine that most of it isn't great for the environment. Oil isn't really a huge cost/output I get from my saws so I don't sweat it so much.

Shaun


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## Mike Van (May 25, 2013)

Only things I've seen water lube really well would be logs and stair treads - Took an awful flop on a wet stair once.........


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## Hddnis (May 31, 2013)

There are bar oils that you mix with water to use, very pricey, but supposed to work better than plain bar oil. It is the additives that make it work, the oil goes into emulsion and then the additives attract it to the metal.


Mr. HE


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## imagineero (May 31, 2013)

Hddnis said:


> There are bar oils that you mix with water to use, very pricey, but supposed to work better than plain bar oil. It is the additives that make it work, the oil goes into emulsion and then the additives attract it to the metal.
> 
> 
> Mr. HE



Got a link?


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## Hddnis (May 31, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Got a link?




http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdf/Arborol_A107105-AB.pdf

This is the only stuff I know of available in the US to buy. I understand there are other brands available in the EU countries due to regulations, but I don't know the names.

I've made it myself using a water geling agent, dish soap, oil (both dino and veggy) and water. I have not used the Arborol stuff. I got the idea from a discussion of nature friendly bar oils on an arborist forum. 

With the stuff I made I noticed the bar will run much cooler and if mixed up on the thinner side the oiler will empty one tank of oil to a tank of gas. It works really well for cutting stumps which is harder on chains, saws, and bars than milling. I've not used it for milling due to never getting around to it. The only reason I've stopped using it is the time factor of mixing it up a gallon at a time, I've got crews that will use more than that before lunch so it was a hassle to keep up. But it was cheap and bar wear was the same or less than standard bar oil, chain stretch seemed to be less and the saws were indeed cleaner, plus they smelled good.

All last winter I ran a 50/50 mix of regular bar oil and veggy oil, it is a little thinner and worked better than standard bar oil in the cold weather, very clingly and slick.

In a milling application I can't see adding water on the end of the bar being a problem. Unless you mill only bone dry wood there is a good amount of water being run over everything anyway, already mixed with acids in the wood. If anything adding water will dilute the nasty stuff from the wood being cut and help out the oil you are pumping into the chain and bar from the saw end.

Another thought is that diamond chainsaws use water to lubricate and cool the chain and bar while cutting concrete.

Well, that got long and rambling...




Mr. HE


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## peacmar (Jun 26, 2013)

Not to hijack but I'm currently up against this dilemma myself and after a few tries with water in the auxiliary oil tank am convinced it is beneficial enough to forget about the B&C wear that could possibly happen. I'm milling primarily white oak and hickory in the woods that has been down and air drying for at least a year or more. My rig is constantly growing and evolving so I'm always looking for ways to better it. I have an extensive background in CNC machining and am myself considering using water based cutting fluid instead of oil but have yet to test it. I figure if a piece of tool steel cutting through nickel can survive with the stuff why can't a chain? There are water soluble organic oils out there that sustain lubrication under extreme pressure and high speeds while cooling, my though is that as long as it doesn't stain the wood it should work beautifully. Again, yet to try it out, but I'm very optimistic. And will most certainly post about it when I do get around to it. We have had a stretch of wet weather in the Midwest lately and I have to cross a flooded marsh to get to my logs so it may be some time before I mill again.


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## BobL (Jun 26, 2013)

peacmar said:


> Not to hijack but I'm currently up against this dilemma myself and after a few tries with water in the auxiliary oil tank am convinced it is beneficial enough to forget about the B&C wear that could possibly happen.


The primary idea behind an Aux oiler is to reduce B&C wear and to a lesser extent take some load off the powerhead. I have a temp gauge on my powerhead and found that water lube did not reduce the powerhead temp any more and maybe less than oil. The only benefit I found was that I could touch the B&C sooner and yes it does keep the chain cleaner but so does using enough aux oil.

I have milled some 30 Aussie hardwood logs (most would be harder when green than Hickory is dry, as well as being very gummy) using water cooling in place of Aux oil and found the B&C wear was a clear problem. I also tried hooking up a running hose to the aux oiler point so I could use larger amounts of water and it made no difference - if anything it was worse.

The analogy with the tool steel cutting is not valid as tool steel does not constantly slam up and down against a workpiece like a chain does on a bar. Most people don't realize that only about every 3rd cutter on a chain takes a significant bite into the wood and this lifts a short segment of chain up off the bar. The biting cutter rocks it's way further into the wood until the tension on the chain builds up so much the leading cutter tears out the chip and the chain slams back down onto the bar. Water cannot sustain these sorts of pressures and is quickly squeezed out between the B&C dragging any regular bar oil with it.


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## peacmar (Jun 27, 2013)

BobL said:


> The primary idea behind an Aux oiler is to reduce B&C wear and to a lesser extent take some load off the powerhead. I have a temp gauge on my powerhead and found that water lube did not reduce the powerhead temp any more and maybe less than oil. The only benefit I found was that I could touch the B&C sooner and yes it does keep the chain cleaner but so does using enough aux oil.
> 
> I have milled some 30 Aussie hardwood logs (most would be harder when green than Hickory is dry, as well as being very gummy) using water cooling in place of Aux oil and found the B&C wear was a clear problem. I also tried hooking up a running hose to the aux oiler point so I could use larger amounts of water and it made no difference - if anything it was worse.
> 
> The analogy with the tool steel cutting is not valid as tool steel does not constantly slam up and down against a workpiece like a chain does on a bar. Most people don't realize that only about every 3rd cutter on a chain takes a significant bite into the wood and this lifts a short segment of chain up off the bar. The biting cutter rocks it's way further into the wood until the tension on the chain builds up so much the leading cutter tears out the chip and the chain slams back down onto the bar. Water cannot sustain these sorts of pressures and is quickly squeezed out between the B&C dragging any regular bar oil with it.



All good points sir although my experience with 2 strokes and the type of "metering" carburetors they use shows that a cylinder or head temp gauge can be essentially useless. But that's another thread for another day, based on my experience with air cooled engines operating on the restricted throat principal. So assessing the load the engine is seeing based on temperature is very unreliable.


Now I totally and whole heatedly agree with your points above about water, so I want to clarify that I am not talking about plain old' water. But rather water that has special additives dissolved in it, that give it lubricating properties far superior of any oil. While cooling at the same time. 

Here is my thought process, milling puts excessive amounts of long term friction into a bar and chain which results in heat build up, causing the chain to stretch as it expands and the bar to swell closing the gap the chain rides in. This all causes the designed tolerances for each part to change, changing and reducing the ability of the parts to hold oil and be lubricated properly and the oil to break down reducing its effectiveness. If you keep the moving parts cool they will operate as designed, which is what the water does. But that in turn removes the oil which lubricates. Water caries heat away better than oil. Water is plentiful. Water does not lubricate. But, there are additives available which allow it to do so and are safe to use. 

My idea is to do away with oil completely, as with the machining analogy, and only use a lubricating water based coolant. The stuff in have in mind cost about $45 a gallon. One gallon mixes to 50 gallons with water. I this biodegradable, environmentally friendly. And ever year our supplier rep replaces the oil in a 16 HP generator and runs it at full load with the water coolant mix for an hour just to show its abilities to us. Something we all look forward to every spring.


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## BobL (Jun 27, 2013)

peacmar said:


> although my experience with 2 strokes and the type of "metering" carburetors they use shows that a cylinder or head temp gauge can be essentially useless.


My temp gauge is not attached to the cylinder head, it is attached to the exhaust port. More importantly I also have a tacho on my powerheads. When a power head is fully warmed up and mill is cutting on a slope under its own weight with most of the bar buried in the log, if I turn off my Aux oiler off, rpms goes down, turn on aux oiler revs goes down. That's clear enough for me.



> Here is my thought process, milling puts excessive amounts of long term friction into a bar and chain which results in heat build up, causing the chain to stretch as it expands and the bar to swell closing the gap the chain rides in.


The gap does not close - it expands and being made from similar material so does the chain so the amount of clearance will stay more or less the same. The friction comes from the chain rubbing on the wood, the chain rubbing on itself, the chain slamming down onto the bar and the chain rubbing on the rails and sprockets. An examination of a chain that has been pushed hard without adequate lubrication will show via visible bluing the greatest temperatures and wear are experienced by the base of the cutters. There is a, not unreasonable, expectation that this wear is cause by sliding friction of the chain on the bar. If this was the case base of the cutters would be totally flat and smooth but this is not the case. A closer examination will show the wear is a mix of flat smooth and rounded peening cause by the cutter base slamming down onto the bar rails. The same applies to the bar - simple sliding friction will wear the bar rail smooth with little or no burring. Instead the bar rails can develop large burrs and preferred wear (large dips in strange places on the bar) related to chain harmonics which are determined by chain and bar dimensions and chain tension. Even a small amount of oil will handle the sliding friction but no water additive that I know of will handle the friction cause by chain slamming. 



> And ever year our supplier rep replaces the oil in a 16 HP generator and runs it at full load with the water coolant mix for an hour just to show its abilities to us. Something we all look forward to every spring.


Chalk and cheese. A generator is not a B&C. Well made engines need relatively little oil to run because by far the greatest fiction is sliding friction so a monolayer of oils is all that is needed between surfaces. Even a CS powerhead needs very little oil to stay lubed which is why they can be run on a ratio of 100:1 on fully synthetic lube. 

Chains need a a higher pressure tacky oil that can withstand the constant slamming of the chain onto the bar and to remain on the chain as it goes around sprockets. The degree of slamming that takes place inside a well made engine is minimal compared to a B&C. 

I know the machining lube stuff you are referring about and it too will not do anything for slamming. To be analogous in the machining sense the machine tool would have to be slammed over a distance of 1/8" back and forth into the the work at the rate of ~150 times a second.


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## imagineero (Jun 28, 2013)

BobL said:


> Most people don't realize that only about every 3rd cutter on a chain takes a significant bite into the wood and this lifts a short segment of chain up off the bar.



Where did you get this information?

Shaun


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## BobL (Jun 28, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Where did you get this information?
> 
> Shaun



The Carlton chain guide is one of the few documents around that describes how a chain really works. If you also look closely at the non-cutting end of the bar you can sometimes see the "chain porpoising" wave propagating backwards out of the cut. BTW it doesn't do this when noodling as the cutters are cutting with the grain and there is little cross grain cutting and what there is, is at a very shallow angle. Cross cutting and milling is where the chain does this porpoising action.


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## peacmar (Jun 29, 2013)

Well Bob I'm gonna try it any way. You make some valid points and I appreciate your clarification and explanations. But I'm not talking about cheap coolants used for turning a piece of brass into a punch. I cut and grind most grades of tool steel (d, t, s, 4140 in the hardened state, tungsten carbide) on a daily basis. I understand what you are saying about the chain chattering and bar harmonics. Every object has a certain frequency. I have one of those think outside the box gotta try it just to know minds. I've made a living alone just by thinking up ideas and solving problems and she something fails ya just have to figure out exactly why and sometimes watching it happen is the best way. Worst case I fry a bar and chain. I have some worn stuff laying around so no lose if they go to junk. In my mind, a chain moving at 65 ft/s chattering over some wood is nothing compared to a 16 inch surfacing mill jumping an 1/8 over a 60 inch diameter tool bed at a tip speed of 230 ft/sec and a feed force around 300 lbs. To me the wood and chain chatter seem like cutting butter. Personally, I feel that the sharpening angles of a chainsaw need to be thought over once again. Much could be gained if one where to put the time and effort into working out the chatter issue. It could be done with multi-angle grinding. 


I don't want this to be an argument. We each have our own opinions and i most certainly respect your experience. Your rig has inspired mine. I take your advice whole heartedly. But what do I really have to lose if I'm safe about everything and have some guards in place should there be a chain failure. Worst case scenario, I have one more story to share over a few guiness' out by the campfire.


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## BobL (Jun 29, 2013)

peacmar said:


> Well Bob I'm gonna try it any way. You make some valid points and I appreciate your clarification and explanations. But I'm not talking about cheap coolants used for turning a piece of brass into a punch. I cut and grind most grades of tool steel (d, t, s, 4140 in the hardened state, tungsten carbide) on a daily basis. I understand what you are saying about the chain chattering and bar harmonics. Every object has a certain frequency. I have one of those think outside the box gotta try it just to know minds. . . . ..



I have no probs with people trying out stuff for them selves. I also tried water cooling against advice and like I said I was not satisfied until I had milled 30 logs with it. :msp_smile:


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## john taliaferro (Jul 1, 2013)

It seams to me the hammering is going on up in the head of the mill not at the coolant . The oil in the head is thick like 10 or 15 wt would make good bar oil ? The porpoises that breaks the chip you will long strings that the chain can't clear .Its explained better in Carltons guide ,also in chainsaw lumbermaking by Will Malloff .


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## greasefittn (Jul 11, 2013)

*water or oil*

I have been using used auto trans oil in my mill since I built it.with no problems so far 2 years with the same bar 320 hrs , get the oil from my buddy that has a auto repair shop


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## ShaneLogs (Jul 12, 2013)

Yes, use bar oil lubricant. Water will make the bar rust and it will do severe damage to the chain and bar that you will not like.


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## BobL (Jul 12, 2013)

ShaneLogs said:


> Yes, use bar oil lubricant. Water will make the bar rust and it will do severe damage to the chain and bar that you will not like.



I milled about 30 logs using water in the aux oiler and standard lube in the saw and didn't have a problem with rust. The way I did this was at the end of the day remove the water cooling and run the saw WOT for about 20 seconds so that everything got covered in B&C oil. If I did not do this then it would definitely rust - this tells me the water washes the oil off. Of course I was use straight water and not a water oil mix.


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## KiwiBro (Sep 12, 2014)

peacmar said:


> Well Bob I'm gonna try it any way. You make some valid points and I appreciate your clarification and explanations. But I'm not talking about cheap coolants used for turning a piece of brass into a punch. I cut and grind most grades of tool steel (d, t, s, 4140 in the hardened state, tungsten carbide) on a daily basis. I understand what you are saying about the chain chattering and bar harmonics. Every object has a certain frequency. I have one of those think outside the box gotta try it just to know minds. I've made a living alone just by thinking up ideas and solving problems and she something fails ya just have to figure out exactly why and sometimes watching it happen is the best way. Worst case I fry a bar and chain. I have some worn stuff laying around so no lose if they go to junk. In my mind, a chain moving at 65 ft/s chattering over some wood is nothing compared to a 16 inch surfacing mill jumping an 1/8 over a 60 inch diameter tool bed at a tip speed of 230 ft/sec and a feed force around 300 lbs. To me the wood and chain chatter seem like cutting butter. Personally, I feel that the sharpening angles of a chainsaw need to be thought over once again. Much could be gained if one where to put the time and effort into working out the chatter issue. It could be done with multi-angle grinding.
> 
> 
> I don't want this to be an argument. We each have our own opinions and i most certainly respect your experience. Your rig has inspired mine. I take your advice whole heartedly. But what do I really have to lose if I'm safe about everything and have some guards in place should there be a chain failure. Worst case scenario, I have one more story to share over a few guiness' out by the campfire.


bumping to ask how this worked out


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## JBarn (Sep 29, 2022)

BobL said:


> The primary idea behind an Aux oiler is to reduce B&C wear and to a lesser extent take some load off the powerhead. I have a temp gauge on my powerhead and found that water lube did not reduce the powerhead temp any more and maybe less than oil. The only benefit I found was that I could touch the B&C sooner and yes it does keep the chain cleaner but so does using enough aux oil.
> 
> I have milled some 30 Aussie hardwood logs (most would be harder when green than Hickory is dry, as well as being very gummy) using water cooling in place of Aux oil and found the B&C wear was a clear problem. I also tried hooking up a running hose to the aux oiler point so I could use larger amounts of water and it made no difference - if anything it was worse.
> 
> The analogy with the tool steel cutting is not valid as tool steel does not constantly slam up and down against a workpiece like a chain does on a bar. Most people don't realize that only about every 3rd cutter on a chain takes a significant bite into the wood and this lifts a short segment of chain up off the bar. The biting cutter rocks it's way further into the wood until the tension on the chain builds up so much the leading cutter tears out the chip and the chain slams back down onto the bar. Water cannot sustain these sorts of pressures and is quickly squeezed out between the B&C dragging any regular bar oil with it.


Do you have a link for the temp gauge on the powerhead? Seems like a great idea


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## BobL (Sep 29, 2022)

JBarn said:


> Do you have a link for the temp gauge on the powerhead? Seems like a great idea


look up
Traxxas Digital Temp Gauge​The thread that describes how I mounted the gauge is here





More instrumentation.


Been meaning to do this one for a while but only just go around to it. The blue do-hickey is a temp gauge (I got it from an RC hobby site). 48F - that's cold morning for where we live :D The temp probe is located in a small gap between two cylinder fins, just on top of the exhaust port. See...



www.arboristsite.com


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