# Hardy Heater Improvement Thread



## hondaracer2oo4 (Jul 20, 2012)

I know that there have been a few discussions in the past about the Hardy Heater possible improvements. A few of us around here have Hardy Heaters and could all benefit from some improvements on the VERY basic design of these heaters. 

Some background on mine, I bought mine last year from a guy out in New York who had bought a general store that was being heated by it since it was new in 1991. He had done some botched repair work to the back of the water jacket which didn't work and wanted it gone so I picked it up for $500 bucks. I fixed his bad welding job and installed it at my new to me 1795 Colonial in New Hampshire. First winter in the house I went through about 12 cords of hardwood unsplit cut to about 26 inches. As far as installation goes the heater is 90 feet from the house. I ran 2 one inch pex lines each way and had them spray foamed in the ground, I lose approx 2 degrees over the 100 foot run. I have a Bell and Gosset NRF36 pump running on speed three through a 24" by 24" water to air heat exchanger in the basement as well as a sidearm heat exchanger on my HW heater. I have a 19 degree heat drop from incoming temp to outgoing temp after passing through the exchangers. 

Now Im pretty happy with the amount of total wood I went through heating the 2600 square foot old home with little insulation but I think that there is room for some improvements. 

One improvement I wanted to look into was more thermal storage mass. Namely adding a large tank of water insulated in the basement that is in the middle of the system to increase water capacity. I know people around here have done it, any suggestions on size and how it improved your burning? 

Next improvement that caught my eye was the forced power drafter unit that mounts on the stack of the boiler. Interesting concept but as of last year no one had seen or used one. I am wondering if someone has bought one or made one by now?

Third improvement was possibly an adition of firebrick, anyone done this with the Hardy with improvement in burning?

Lastly has anyone modified the exit path for the smoke to make it harder to get out of the boiler, thus transfering more heat?


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## VikingDrive (Jul 20, 2012)

Water-cooled door. Most of them warp burning hedge. Good idea for a discussion, by the way.


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## VikingDrive (Jul 20, 2012)

About all of the outdoor boiler guys are looking for more mass in the system. I would like to have a 2500 gallon insulated tank buried in the floor.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Jul 20, 2012)

Water insulated door would be an option to transfer a little more heat. The door does has a half inch sheet of insulation in it which seems to reflect most of the heat back into the burn box. You can put your hand on the door all day long with it at full burn and it is just barely warm. If I remember correctly my IR thermometer read somewhere in the range of 65 degrees. So that says to me that the insulation is reflecting the heat back in but you are losing that 16 x 16 area of heat transfer surface in the burn chamber to non heat transfer to water. Unfortunately it wouldn't be very easy to make a water jacket door. Anybody have any advice or specific size expierences with additional thermal storage?


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## imagineero (Jul 21, 2012)

I think you'd probably get better mileage out of pimping your house than your heater. Take your IR thermometer and do some investigating in the house. Do what you can for cold areas. Seal up drafts. Heavy drapes are good, or you can use this new plastic film stuff as a kind of cheap double glazing. I gave it a go and it works but doesn't last that long (2-3years)

In terms of thermal mass, at some point you are going to have too much and start going backwards. You need a ballance of thermal mass and insulation in strategic places. Not sure what your house is made out of (stone?) or how it's constructed, but you may be able to add mass or insulation in clever ways to improve your situation. If you can get access to the underside of your floors, you may find that adding a korean style ondol system with water piped through some thermal mass in the floor adds a lot of efficiency, since the heat will be under the room and rising up. Very cosy to walk/sleep on too. If you have stone walls you may be able to add a studwall on the north side rooms with some polystyrene insulation getting R50 insulation and put some gyprock up there. Will stop the negative battery effect of having thermal mass in a place that only cold hits it. Lots of other things you can do depending on your house layout.

Shaun


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Jul 21, 2012)

imagineeroo, Yes your right, I have a 1795 Colonial two story that is wood frame. The insulation is all very questionable and the drafts are extensive. All windows have been replaced with a high quality pella. I know that I have a long way to go to get the inside of the house up to par. But what I am really looking for are some ideas with the Hardy Heater for improvements, but I am definitely interested in all aspects of stretching the wood! Thank you.


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## VikingDrive (Jul 21, 2012)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> imagineeroo, Yes your right, I have a 1795 Colonial two story that is wood frame. The insulation is all very questionable and the drafts are extensive. All windows have been replaced with a high quality pella. I know that I have a long way to go to get the inside of the house up to par. But what I am really looking for are some ideas with the Hardy Heater for improvements, but I am definitely interested in all aspects of stretching the wood! Thank you.



I haven't seen a Hardy engineered to heat a structure like you described. What is yours rated at? Yes you need firebrick and all the themal banking you can integrate. use a 2500 gallon tank. 12 cords of wood is nothing compared to what your system is demanding. You did good injecting foam in the pex run. How did you verify it went through? You might embed a plate collector into a masonry chimney which has the exhaust flue from your boiler connected. We have an indoor pool which serves as a heat bank. the system could be down for some time and stay above sixty degrees in the house. And we are hybridized to the geothermal circuit for the heat pump. Ideas you can investigate.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Jul 21, 2012)

Its a Hardy H4 rated at 180000 BTUs. As far as foaming the pex I dug a 36 inch deep trench 8 inches wide. I then placed 1/2 sheets of hardboard insulation on the bottom of the trench. Then the spray foam guy put down 4 inches of spray foam, we dropped the pex lines ontop of the 4 inches, then he sprayed another 4 inches on top completely encapsulating the whole sha bang. That plate collector you mean would be in the stack and have water flowing through it from the water jacket in an attempt to collect more heat from the flue? I did think of that last year but didn't get around to making anything.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 21, 2012)

I know I am digging up an old thread but I just stumbled on something that I thought was very interesting. Check out this youtube video from a Hardy Dealer in Ohio. 

Hardy Efficiency Plates - YouTube

I am going to call him today. I like the idea of the Channel beam forcing the smoke and heat close to the walls to get out instead of just basically right out of the top. What I don't like is the fact that the thing weighs probably 75 pounds and would only be sitting on those two little rods that traverse the top of the firebox that are designed to hold up that 2 pound plate. I was thinking it would be better if that thing was made from structural channel aluminum.


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## Encore (Nov 21, 2012)

You'll like him. He's actually about 20min up the road from me and is the dealer I work with. 

Those plates for the H4 are no joke. I've got a couple buddies working with them and they actually report better than 40% less wood usage. 

Because my house is smaller (1600sqft) I'm fine with just the fire buster. My wood usage isn't really an issue but I may use one down the road.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 21, 2012)

Encore, I would like to give him a call and talk to him, do you have his number? Thanks!


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## Encore (Nov 21, 2012)

His office number is 330-485-6310

If he doesnt answer he will usually call back fairly quickly if you leave a message. It's just him and his son that run the shop


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks encore, I gave him a call and left a message. Waiting to hear back. Do you know how much he wants for the plate? How about that corkscrew mod? Heard anything about that? Seems like it would be a good addition a long with the plate.


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## Encore (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm not recalling exactly. It wasn't a ridiculous amount of money. The only other thing you have to add on is an extra chimney length if you have the short one (which I do). 

He said it's because the extra draft from the chimney helps draw it through the plate better. 

I'm not sure what shipping cost would be though for something that heavy. I'm sure after the holiday he'll get back to you real quick.


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## benp (Nov 25, 2012)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> I know I am digging up an old thread but I just stumbled on something that I thought was very interesting. Check out this youtube video from a Hardy Dealer in Ohio.
> 
> Hardy Efficiency Plates - YouTube
> 
> I am going to call him today. I like the idea of the Channel beam forcing the smoke and heat close to the walls to get out instead of just basically right out of the top. What I don't like is the fact that the thing weighs probably 75 pounds and would only be sitting on those two little rods that traverse the top of the firebox that are designed to hold up that 2 pound plate. I was thinking it would be better if that thing was made from structural channel aluminum.



Thanks for digging this up.:msp_thumbsup:

I really like the concept of that corkscrew and I think my stove would benefit from it. 

The exhaust has a horizontal run through the water jacket out of the firebox and then out and up. "Kind" of like the hardy, but I would insert into the firebox end instead of down the chimney.

Any ways, I think I am going to give this guy a call. Thanks for the info.


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## Encore (Nov 25, 2012)

benp said:


> Thanks for digging this up.:msp_thumbsup:
> 
> I really like the concept of that corkscrew and I think my stove would benefit from it.
> 
> ...



If you stick it into the fire box I don't think it would work the same. The reason it's in the chimney is to control the speed that the smoke goes out the chimney, but it has to be surrounded by something for it to constrict the flow. Plus itd take up a lot of room in there.


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## benp (Nov 25, 2012)

Yep. 

It would be in the chimney inlet out of the firebox. There's about a foot or so horizontal run of chimney out of the firebox through the water jacket before it exits the back of the stove then up. 

We will see.


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## HardyOWB (Nov 26, 2012)

I will be calling him also. Thanks for the info. Please post the cost for these when you get them. I will do the same. It would be great to talk to someone who has added these mods.


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## walkerdogman85 (Nov 27, 2012)

does it help with the smoke issue my h4 doesnt smoke to bad but thought mabye it would cut some of it out


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## HardyOWB (Nov 27, 2012)

HardyOWB said:


> I will be calling him also. Thanks for the info. Please post the cost for these when you get them. I will do the same. It would be great to talk to someone who has added these mods.



I left him a vm today. Waiting for a call back. The two items don't look like they should be very expensive. I am hoping they work as advertised.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 28, 2012)

Sorry about just getting back to this. I did talk to him. He said the Corkscrew is for the H2, they are $60 plus shipping and the Heat Plate thing for the H4 is $190 plus shipping. He should call you back in the morning the day after you leave a VM. He told me that people that he had sold them to were getting about 25% better efficiency which would be really good. I don't have the extra cash at the moment, Im hoping somebody else on here picks one up so we can hear about the change in consumption!


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## HardyOWB (Nov 28, 2012)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Sorry about just getting back to this. I did talk to him. He said the Corkscrew is for the H2, they are $60 plus shipping and the Heat Plate thing for the H4 is $190 plus shipping. He should call you back in the morning the day after you leave a VM. He told me that people that he had sold them to were getting about 25% better efficiency which would be really good. I don't have the extra cash at the moment, Im hoping somebody else on here picks one up so we can hear about the change in consumption!



If this works as he says its a no brainer. He did call me back today but we are playing phone tag. $190 to get 25% better efficiency is a very good investment. I burn 20 face cord a year in my H5 economy (same as the H4 but with an external plate heat exchanger for domestic hot water). I am having a hard time believing that thing will save me 5 face cord per year.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 28, 2012)

Yea, I had the same problem with getting a hold of him playing phone tag back and forth since he only calls once a day and it will usually be in the morning, if you miss him you are SOL for the day. I asked him if he has another number to get a hold of him but he said no, the voicemail is how he does everything, a little frustrating. Yea I burn about 10-12 full cord per year so we are burning just about the same. I get it for $100 per cord so in one years time it should pay itself off if it works as well as he says. He seems straight forward and honest. He threw out the 25% number. Someone else on this thread said that they knew some people with it and they claimed up to 40% savings. So the 25% he claims is much more conservative than those people using them and if they said as much as 40%, they must have seen a significant change in wood usage.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 29, 2012)

So an improvement I have been thinking about is adding some sort of wedge on top of the I beams since logs seem to get stuck to the side of the grates and not burn well/ at all. Any one else thought about this? I think it would be pretty easy to weld some sort of wedge/triangle on top of each of the I beams so that any logs on the side would end up rolling into the middle.


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## MVrana (Feb 12, 2013)

So, did anyone ever get one of the "plates"? If so, how's it working out?

I called the guy and he called me righ back the next day. He wasn't too enthusiastic but said he would follow up in a day or two with shipping costs. That was over 2 months ago and he hasn't called back. 

I think I'm gonna make one myself. It doesn't look too complicated.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Feb 14, 2013)

Have not bought them or made one up yet. Real easy though. Just get a C channel that is probably 2.5"x8". Cut in half, weld some tabs with bolt holes, put it up, bolt it togeather. Real simple, just haven't had the time. Don't know if it would make a difference, this guy swears it would.


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## poorboypaul (Feb 14, 2013)

What town in Ohio is he located? I should be able to drive there.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Feb 14, 2013)

http://###########################/forum/index.php?topic=3243.0


Some guys talking about it over there. One has the C Channel and said his wood went down 25-33%. The guys phone number is 330-485-6310. Call him and ask him where he is located in Ohio. He calls back the next day btw, usually in the morning.


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## Encore (Feb 14, 2013)

poorboypaul said:


> What town in Ohio is he located? I should be able to drive there.



Rittman, OH


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## Mr Goodwrench (Sep 9, 2013)

*Update*

Bringing this old thread back to life, Guy left me a voice mail said he was re-doing the plate for the H-4 because people would not slide open the door daily for clean out. Anyone have one they could measure up for me so I could build my own?


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