# Semi-skip chain angle



## twochains (Mar 29, 2013)

Hey, I just received my "long bar" lol! I ordered it with 2 semi-skip chains, they are Oregon brand. I was checking them out and noticed what a strange angle they are sharpened in. The chains are square chisel and sharpened w/o hardly any angle at all...is this the angle I am supposed to sharpen them at?? Pardon my ignorance, but to me they don't look like they would cut butter. Is this angle so the chains aren't too grabby? Thanks in advance for any help on this. Cheers! 

Can't wait to sink this bar in a good tree!! 

edit...Oh crap....I should have got a round ground!!!! That's what I get for buying stuff I don't know what the heck they are talking about. What do I sharpen these with?? A flat file?? DANG!


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## mdavlee (Mar 29, 2013)

A double bevel file is what you need to file it square. You can round file it to whatever you're used to. As far as I know no one makes semi skip in round ground. The angles are alright but I sharpen all the new chain if I have time to. It will cut a little faster than off the roll round.


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## twochains (Mar 29, 2013)

Man I feel like I screwd up a bit...oh well live and learn I guess. So "IF" I can find a file here in the sticks would it be better to keep it square ground or should I just push a round through it and make it like I want? Which cuts better?


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## woodchuck357 (Mar 29, 2013)

*what you have is chain sharpened for using as a chainsaw mill*

Save them or trade them or file 'em. Teeth sharpened with little or no angle don't cut as wide a kerf.


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## mdavlee (Mar 29, 2013)

Square is faster cutting and smoother. You're falling timber right? If you are I would use it and try to learn to file it. If you're bucking on a landing then you're probably not going to like it. 

If you search in the chainsaw forum there's lots of threads on square filing. They can help you out. More than likely you'll have to order files from somewhere not local unless they do sell a lot of square ground chain.


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## woodchuck357 (Mar 29, 2013)

*Bailey's woodlandprp30scs*



mdavlee said:


> A double bevel file is what you need to file it square. You can round file it to whatever you're used to. As far as I know no one makes semi skip in round ground. The angles are alright but I sharpen all the new chain if I have time to. It will cut a little faster than off the roll round.



Bailey's - WoodlandPro 30SCS Chainsaw Chain


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## HuskStihl (Mar 29, 2013)

Send it back and trade it for jgx. Great "long bar" falling chain. You already have the tools and skills to sharpen it


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## mdavlee (Mar 29, 2013)

Here's what he says he has. Bailey's - Oregon 75CK Chainsaw Chain


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## twochains (Mar 29, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Square is faster cutting and smoother. You're falling timber right? If you are I would use it and try to learn to file it. If you're bucking on a landing then you're probably not going to like it.
> 
> If you search in the chainsaw forum there's lots of threads on square filing. They can help you out. More than likely you'll have to order files from somewhere not local unless they do sell a lot of square ground chain.



Yes, I am falling. I wouldn't buck at a landing for the world in this mud! :msp_biggrin: And I also refuse to sharpen the chains used at the landing! :msp_w00t:


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## mdavlee (Mar 29, 2013)

I run square for firewood but I guess I'm in the minority on that. Most say it's not worth the trouble but it's faster, smoother, and last just as long as that little point on round chisel. 

Here's a video of square filing so you get the idea of it. 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JZMuqKxwc60?list=UUyphpSr9YxmRcLFLuGwNQBg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 29, 2013)

IF I'm remembering correctly square ground has less of an angle than does most round. Run it as is and if you don't like the square grind file it round. You can also add a lil more angle in there if desired. I'm sure some of the fallers like Bob or Sam can shed much more light on the matter. In the meantime here is sharpening info from a prominent northwest saw shop. Hopefully I'm not violating the non vendor thing but it's really info not saying you should buy from them. Sorry in advance if I violated policy Bob. 

Chisel chain sharpening
Square Ground Chisel Angles 

Chisel chain Q & A
Square Chisel Chain Q & A 

How To Sharpen Square Chisel Chain With A File
How To File Square Chisel Chain

Gullet Maintenance On Square Chisel Saw Chain
Gullet Maintenance On Pro Saw Chain 

Hope this helps,

Wes


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 29, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Save them or trade them or file 'em. Teeth sharpened with little or no angle don't cut as wide a kerf.



How do you figure that? The top point of the tooth is going to be in the same place relative to the centreline of the bar regardless of the angle it is filed at


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## Rounder (Mar 29, 2013)

The CK has become my favorite chain. A few less cutters to maintain, and just as smooth as CL on the bar lengths I run. Chisel filing isn't near as bad as some people make it out to be, it just takes a little time and patience to build the muscle memory for the angles you're after. Once you get it down, it files just as quick as round chain. There's just the added step of keeping up on gullets, which isn't really a big deal (IF you keep up on it).

A grinder is nice, but not required. I hand chisel filed for a couple years before I got lazy and bought a grinder.

Stihl sells a 3-corner file that really does a nice job, for me the 3-corner file was easier to learn on. 

Not much good as landing chain, but for falling, once you've run it, round chain will make you want to slit your wrists.

Hope everyone's well - Sam


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## northmanlogging (Mar 29, 2013)

The chisel chain is good stuff, I ran round for years until I bought my 461 and had em throw a full skip chisel on it, no looking back now...

The video from above is good stuff, just remember to go through and take out the valleys/gullets about evertime you touch up the riders.

As for milling chains, they are similar except that milling chains have funny looking riders and an almost straight tooth profile, chisel still has like a 15 deg angle to it...


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## woodchuck357 (Mar 30, 2013)

*Yeah, my bad. Thought he was talking about top angle, not side.*

I haven't tried square filed chain, yet. First off, didn't look as if it was worth the trouble, but I'll have to check it out.


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## roberte (Mar 30, 2013)

30 & 10


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## mdavlee (Mar 30, 2013)

I like the CK if I'm filing. If I'm going to be grinding then I prefer the stihl RSLHK. I would say I end up at almost a 30° top plate and somewhere between 1-5° on the side plate.


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## 1270d (Mar 30, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I like the CK if I'm filing. If I'm going to be grinding then I prefer the stihl RSLHK. I would say I end up at almost a 30° top plate and somewhere between 1-5° on the side plate.



Is it because the StIHL chain is harder? What angles do you dress your stone to?


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## mdavlee (Mar 30, 2013)

The stihl chain is harder on files. I'll go and check the angles on the dresser here shortly. I need to get a video of grinding a few cutters up also.


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## 1270d (Mar 30, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> The stihl chain is harder on files. I'll go and check the angles on the dresser here shortly. I need to get a video of grinding a few cutters up also.



My grinder doesn't have numbered increments on the dressing bars, rather just lines etched in. I have to measure them. Greystoke is one of the only folks I've heard of with this kind of grinder.

I cut in almost 100% hardwood so my angles are probably quite a bit different. I would however like to get a good setup for white/red pine. I'm sure they would be similar to western softwoods.

Thanks


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## mdavlee (Mar 30, 2013)

My grinder isn't marked either. I use an angle finder on the dresser blocks.


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## mdavlee (Mar 30, 2013)

Right now it's set at 22 for the top dresser and 8 for the side dresser.


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## mdavlee (Mar 30, 2013)

Here's a new cutter and a square filed cutter.


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## twochains (Mar 30, 2013)

I had to switch mind sets for the last day or two, been tuning a new build on my son's race quad and haven't been in the house much.

Switching back to the chain topic...I think I will stick with the square ground and just learn it. I'm all about trying and learning new things, if the square ground semi-skip cuts fast I am definitely going to learn to sharpen that way. I'm taking the bar and chains to the woods in the morning and see how I like it. Moving to a 300 acre track in the morning...so it will get some use around day break in some super nice timber. 

Thanks for everyone input! Much appreciated! Cheers!


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## mdavlee (Mar 30, 2013)

Let us know how you like it. There's quite a few people on here that can help you out on filing.


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## Rounder (Mar 30, 2013)

1270d said:


> My grinder doesn't have numbered increments on the dressing bars, rather just lines etched in. I have to measure them. Greystoke is one of the only folks I've heard of with this kind of grinder.
> 
> I cut in almost 100% hardwood so my angles are probably quite a bit different. I would however like to get a good setup for white/red pine. I'm sure they would be similar to western softwoods.
> 
> Thanks



Cody's got a Pro Sharp, He got his when they were a bit more reasonable in price.


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## 1270d (Mar 31, 2013)

I guess I thought it was a ziegelmeyer. Maybe it was a raker machine I was thinking of. Not that I know him, just from reading threads here.


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## 056 kid (Mar 31, 2013)

I run pretty soft wood type angles. Less raker depth and more side plate angle as well as more acute cutting angles. As the bit loses its edge it still cuts. My experiences with lesser side plate angles are that after you lose that "razor" edge, you are not cutting much at all. When I first started hand filing I was making bits that had very little top plate angle, lots of side plate angle and rather acute cutting angles. I could not believe how fast it would cut spruce.


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## twochains (Mar 31, 2013)

Well...I forgot it was Easter Sunday! With my best of judgement applied I decided to NOT start a new tract today. I could just imagine me out there blasting a saw all day while the new land owners were having an Easter egg hunt! LOL! That prolly wouldn't go over so well. So with me being like a kid with a new toy I decided to hike up on my land and drop a couple large dead oak leaning over my trails. 

First impressions were as follows:

1) Dang this is a long bar (as I was starting the saw)
2) Dang this is a long bar (as I was sizing it up to the tree)
3) Chain cuts smooth as silk, even in the VERY VERY dead oak.
4) IMO the chain cuts rather slow...better than a dull standard chain, but prolly only because a real dull chain might drift off and just over rev the saw.
5) Chain bore cut rather well on a massive head lean, smooth for sure... but waaay slower feeling.

General thoughts: 

I think more angle maybe??
Might just not be sharp out of the box maybe??

Over all OPINION:

Love the bar!
Jury is still out on the chain!

Disclaimer...These are my opinions and I could very well be an idiot :msp_w00t:


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## mdavlee (Mar 31, 2013)

You're probably right on it being slower than a good round filed chain. I try to file or grind a new chain if I have time. I've got a brand new loop of Stihl I need to sharpen up.


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## Rounder (Mar 31, 2013)

1270d said:


> I guess I thought it was a ziegelmeyer. Maybe it was a raker machine I was thinking of. Not that I know him, just from reading threads here.



SOB has the Ziggy drag grinder that indexes off the point of the cutter. Lazy bum he is...:msp_laugh:


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## 1270d (Mar 31, 2013)

I've been lucky enough to use a set of "Ziggy" grinders since I started. The raker machine is a great tool, and my knowledge doesn't run that deep as far as differen plate angles etc. For the last ten or so years most everything is harvester cut now so the square grinding is mostly for fun. 

The good part is they'll never wear out at the current rate of use.


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## bitzer (Apr 1, 2013)

Two chains- forgot to mention that semi-skip only comes in square. I've run square semi skip right out of the box and was not impressed. I don't run square and don't have the time to learn it right now, but the loops of full skip round cut circles around that chain at the time. My shop was out of my usual chain and had a couple of semi skip loops. They did not look overly aggressive when I ran them and like others have said they probably needed a touch up. I round ground them after that. I've come up with a pretty wicked round ground chain using two different wheels. I use the standard 3/16" at 60 degrees and then hit it just under the top plate at 40 degrees with an 1/8" wheel. It puts a really nice champfer on it. The side angle is 30 on both. It sounds like a lot of screwing around, but I can do a 32" full skip loop in under 10 minutes. What length of bar did you go with?


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## imagineero (Apr 1, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> How do you figure that? The top point of the tooth is going to be in the same place relative to the centreline of the bar regardless of the angle it is filed at



The woodchuck is right. The chain isn't a rigid affair by a long shot, the rivets are not spun that tight, and there's plenty of room for wiggle in the bar even when the bar and chain are both brand new. Chains with less angle tend to cut a narrower kerf, while chains with more angle tend to cut a wider kerf. The top point does in fact get pulled off to each side, and at some point if you increase the angle too much you'll wear your bar groove out faster, as well as get slower cutting. As with everything, there's a sweet spot... and it turns out that for typical applications its right around the manufacturers reccomendation. Whod've thunk it?


Shaun


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## StihlKiwi (Apr 1, 2013)

imagineero said:


> The woodchuck is right. The chain isn't a rigid affair by a long shot, the rivets are not spun that tight, and there's plenty of room for wiggle in the bar even when the bar and chain are both brand new. Chains with less angle tend to cut a narrower kerf, while chains with more angle tend to cut a wider kerf. The top point does in fact get pulled off to each side, and at some point if you increase the angle too much you'll wear your bar groove out faster, as well as get slower cutting. As with everything, there's a sweet spot... and it turns out that for typical applications its right around the manufacturers reccomendation. Whod've thunk it?
> 
> 
> Shaun



You had me confused as to who you meant by the woodchuck for a minute there - one of the spraying supervisors I work with refers to my degree as "woodchuck school"


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## twochains (Apr 1, 2013)

Bitzer- I bought the 30" bar. It's pretty nice, I am going to try a tank with this current setup this morning, I will prolly get a standard chain 2day and see what Stihl has to offer as far as a full skip, or just make sure of my options with Stihl brand chains. I have used Oregon before but in just a standard "flat top"...they come dull in the box it seems. I have pretty much always ran Stihl chains, Oregon drop the back of their tooth too much it seems.


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## 056 kid (Apr 1, 2013)

To me square chain is so great because of its accuracy. Face a tree with a little 1" Dutchman on the far side? Snip it right out with that square chain. Round chain will jump and carry on, possibly flying off the rail.
So, depending on what type of cutter you are,(faces proper or stump jumper), you may or may not appreciate a square chain. Factory grinds are usually subpar though..


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

twochains said:


> Bitzer- I bought the 30" bar. It's pretty nice, I am going to try a tank with this current setup this morning, I will prolly get a standard chain 2day and see what Stihl has to offer as far as a full skip, or just make sure of my options with Stihl brand chains. I have used Oregon before but in just a standard "flat top"...they come dull in the box it seems. I have pretty much always ran Stihl chains, Oregon drop the back of their tooth too much it seems.



I've got some stihl semi skip in .063" and full comp square in .050" if you would like to try a loop of it against the oregon. Just let me know and I'll even put it on the grinder so you can try a better example of square chain.


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## roberte (Apr 1, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I've got some stihl semi skip in .063" and full comp square in .050" if you would like to try a loop of it against the oregon. Just let me know and I'll even put it on the grinder so you can try a better example of square chain.



shoot, i'll sign up for that .063 111 driver


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

roberte said:


> shoot, i'll sign up for that .063 111 driver



Let me see what twochains says. I've only got around 230 dl left.


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## roberte (Apr 1, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Let me see what twochains says. I've only got around 230 dl left.



Well u know were I'm at.


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## 056 kid (Apr 1, 2013)

105 please


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

roberte said:


> Well u know were I'm at.





056 kid said:


> 105 please



If you guys want enough of it we can split a roll here in the near future. Just pm me if you're interested. Ted you still down my way?


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## 056 kid (Apr 1, 2013)

Few pics, first grind, and first grind after removing the gullets.


Never mind, this piece of garbage droid won't allow me to "tap and drag" like I need to. I'd like to put this thing into an undercut and never see another...


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

If you're on tapatalk it works pretty good from the phone. I upload to photobucket a lot from my phone just for ease of doing it.


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## 056 kid (Apr 1, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> If you guys want enough of it we can split a roll here in the near future. Just pm me if you're interested. Ted you still down my way?



Yea I'm still here, once it gets hot I might migrate. Where you purchasing from Madsens I assume?


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## 056 kid (Apr 1, 2013)

Trust me dude I have no f****** idea what I'm doing.


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

Them smart phones make me feel so dumb sometimes it ain't even funny.


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)




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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm trying to figure it out from the phone. If I upload to the forum and insert inline it does it this way. The other post was using tapatalk. 

View attachment 287911


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## roberte (Apr 1, 2013)

056 kid said:


> Few pics, first grind, and first grind after removing the gullets.
> 
> 
> Never mind, this piece of garbage droid won't allow me to "tap and drag" like I need to. I'd like to put this thing into an undercut and never see another...



sounds like my communicator. i dont know about yours but i have a POS 9000, its awesome, not


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## twochains (Apr 1, 2013)

Hey, just got in. Logged till 4 o'clock and then the boss came and got me to help pull a rear-end out of the big skidder...what a day!!! 

I got to try my long bar setup....not at first but a "have to" type of deal. I had on my 20" and it jumped off and burnt a section of drive links absolutely off! So I grabbed my long bar and sunk it in a few trees. It did fine with the square filed chain but not great. I got frustrated with it and...well...the one chain is now a round filed :msp_biggrin:! It cut better with more angle. 

mdavlee- I still have a new square ground in the box, do you think you could help me with it? Or I would buy a suggested chain from you if you have one that you would recommend. 

056kid- I don;t know what a "stump jumper" is, but I am very type A about my stumps. I always try and leave a good stump so if anybody ever comes by judging a cutter by his stumps...I am in good shape. I felt like the square ground is very accurate and ultra smooth. The only thing I can say bad about it is it seemed slow in the tree and I was in constant fear of barber chairing. The tree would drop in the notch and here I was still trying to burn the hinge out before it split. I blame most of this to the degree of the cutting edge...just damn near straight across. I am more used to a standard flat top with the drags bordering on too short. 

Also I would like to say that I should have taken the advice of Tramp Bushler when he suggested getting the 63 gauge. I got a 50 and now understand he was taking chain stretch into consideration along with experience. I could punch myself in the face! 

Like the bar length though! I now understand about limbing while walking the tree with the longer bar. I did however cuss the length a bit in the underbrush and really tight areas. Now I just need to line out a chain that I am comfortable with, and one that is fast. 

Guys...I tremendously appreciate all the help and info! Very nice people on this forum for sure! Thanks!


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## roberte (Apr 1, 2013)

Two chains,
You may want to give yourself more time on the new set up.I was set on the round file too.I told my self too go thru the whole set up, half skip and square, vs round and full skip,so I here where your coming from.
I were all into instant gratification, but that don't work here. It really takes about two filings just to get the factory edge off.


I also changed from .050 to .063 onthose long bjars.
Jury is still out on what I like, but I'm giving it more than two tanks


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## mdavlee (Apr 1, 2013)

All I have is full comp in .050". The semi skip is .063". If you want mail me the chain and I'll grind it and send it back. I'm on the other end of TN so it would be probably 2 days each way on it. If you want to try full comp on that length I can grind a chain for you tomorrow and get it in the mail Wednesday.


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## twochains (Apr 1, 2013)

I will probably do a mix. I will send you this new chain and buy the full comp. My ol'lady is in the middle of a Call of Duty match :msp_rolleyes:...she handles the paypal deal. I will have to wait till 2moro and have her handle the transaction.


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## twochains (Apr 1, 2013)

roberte said:


> Two chains,
> You may want to give yourself more time on the new set up.I was set on the round file too.I told my self too go thru the whole set up, half skip and square, vs round and full skip,so I here where your coming from.
> I were all into instant gratification, but that don't work here. It really takes about two filings just to get the factory edge off.
> 
> ...



I gave it 3 till I brought out the file. :msp_biggrin:


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## roberte (Apr 2, 2013)

twochains said:


> I gave it 3 till I brought out the file. :msp_biggrin:



Dude, you need to go 30 days before base jumping


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## HuskStihl (Apr 2, 2013)

twochains said:


> Hey, just got in. Logged till 4 o'clock and then the boss came and got me to help pull a rear-end out of the big skidder...what a day!!!
> 
> I got to try my long bar setup....not at first but a "have to" type of deal. I had on my 20" and it jumped off and burnt a section of drive links absolutely off! So I grabbed my long bar and sunk it in a few trees. It did fine with the square filed chain but not great. I got frustrated with it and...well...the one chain is now a round filed :msp_biggrin:! It cut better with more angle.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you're happy with the new bar. Having watched your videos I'll say I'm not as good as you with a saw, but I still hate jumping from side to side to fall a tree. I applaud you being willing to learn and giving the square grind plenty of time, but in the end you got to use what you like. It may not seem like it on this thread, but there are plenty of us "roundies" out there, we're just too ashamed to admit we happily use what comes out of the cardboard box!


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 2, 2013)

Hey I'll admit it. I run round ground on my small saw which is used for firewood and thinning and gets the crap beat out of it lol and got some on my 36 just cuz I knew I could sharpen it and didn't want to screw up a long chain like that.


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## mdavlee (Apr 2, 2013)

twochains said:


> I will probably do a mix. I will send you this new chain and buy the full comp. My ol'lady is in the middle of a Call of Duty match :msp_rolleyes:...she handles the paypal deal. I will have to wait till 2moro and have her handle the transaction.



Sounds good.


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## bitzer (Apr 2, 2013)

Two chains- A longer bar is going to have a slower chain speed naturally. You will probably end up changing your cutting technique some to accomodate the longer bar. I played around for a long time with bar lengths. It probably took me 5 or 6 months of production cutting to get the system to where I like it. Once I did I was easily putting more wood on the ground every day. To me any experience I can offer might help someone else make more money. Having to keep a buisness afloat and feed a wife and five kids really gets me thinking of ways to stream line everything. Max output and efficiency while trying to maintain a degree of safety. The thing is you have to find the sweet spot with your set up while maintaining safety. consistancy will produce over time. My cutting style is probably not safe for everyone, but I'm comfortable because its mine. When you are bore cutting trees you have almost always have to keep an eye on the saw instead of the tree. Its a hard habit to break when you start back cutting nearly everything, which is to me one of the goals of the longer bar. Reading trees when back cutting is a big deal and you lose all of that when boring. If you know a tree is going to come off the stump fast cut the majority of the far side off far first and then come back to your side. This gives you less wood to cut when it really starts moving then if you cut straight across the back. With a longer bar you can reach that far side without really moving much. Usually you can stay in one place while facing and back cutting, which to me is another goal of the longer bar. Time saving. If a tree is going to come off the stump fast, put a snipe on it as insurance and a nice wide face. Also if you've got a deeper face like 1/2 the diameter or so most of the compression wood should be gone. Its really a style change. Once you get it figured out though you'll wonder why you ever did it any onther way.


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## twochains (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks Bitzer! That's some solid advice there!


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## twochains (Apr 2, 2013)

roberte said:


> Dude, you need to go 30 days before base jumping



You have a good humor to ya! :msp_biggrin:


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## inbredJed (Apr 5, 2013)

*Hang in There*

TwoChains: Man, all of us who have had to learn to hand-file square-grind have first cussed it up one side and down the other, the moment that we realized that our amateur sharpening job resulted in a chain that cut like mad, but cut crooked. :msp_angry:

BTW, never ever compare the cutting performance of square to round when using factory grinds. Imho, Stihl round factory grind cuts fairly well, though not as well as hand-filed round, because you can file the side-plate a hair-bit deeper. But square factory grind, to me, is intollerable (especially Oregon) and yet, hand filed square is the fastest and straightest cutting chain I've ever used, although I had the devil to pay to learn how to do it.

I really admired the fellow who posted the vid of his method with the double-bevel. Works for him, and it's obvious that he knows what he's doing. I started using the triangle (hexagonal) file about two years ago, and never looked back. It's sweet cause you can just barely graze the tie-straps with the flat part of the file on your downward stroke, (while the top of the file remains in the corner of the chisel) and you end up with perfect side-plate angles every time on both sides (left and right). I swear it cuts faster than the double bevel too, but maybe that's just all in my head, because it doesn't make sense. (I attribute it to the fact that the triangle takes out more gullet (for chip-flow) than the double-bevel, but that's probably only because I used to get super lazy about round-filing out my gullets) lol. 

I also deeply agree with the guy who said that a more aggressive side plate angle cut much better.

And thanks tons to Shaun who knows about the greater top plate angle cutting a wider kerf. Man, who taught you that? That's amazing... I've never though of that, but it's totally true now that I think about it. I wonder if that's one of the reasons that square cuts faster?

Oh, one last thing: try ramming a wedge between the bottom of the bar and the chain when you're sharpening square to get the chain really tight. Really helps.


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## mdavlee (Apr 5, 2013)

The triangle files were harder for me to get a good grip on. That's why I stuck with the double bevel. I do take out a lot of gullet area so the files aren't hitting it. Any one that takes the time to learn to square file is usually well pleased with the results.


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## inbredJed (Apr 5, 2013)

Oh, I get it: you probably grip the file with only one hand like the guy in the vid. Yeah, sure, the double bevel wld be a lot better for that, plus it'd be a lot more rigid.

I'm a two hander--stump vise, wedge rammed in the bottom, one hand on the handle, one on the tip of the file.


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## roberte (Apr 5, 2013)

That triangular file works a lot better in a guide.


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## mdavlee (Apr 6, 2013)

If its the same video on here that's me. I use my other hand to steady the tooth. I've never tried using a guide to square file.


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## inbredJed (Apr 6, 2013)

*who knew?*

roberte: Man, that's even better--at least to give it a try..... I never even knew that there was a guide for the triangles. Do you know how I cld get my hands on one? I've seen the guide for the double-bevel, but the darned thing was like over $200.00 from Bailey's.:msp_sad:

mdavlee: Yeah, o.k., that is you. Pretty cool how you use your other hand to stabilize the bit, and sort of use your finger as a guide all at the same time. Still, might be worth a try to ram a wedge in the bottom of the bar. You don't have to stabilize the bit at all if you ram it in there tight enough. It's impossible to break the chain--trust me. Then you can use your other hand just as a guide if you want. Me, I grab the file tip with my other hand, but everyone's different. I might give your method a whorl. Pretty cool stuff. You guys are about the only fellers I've come across who have the patience for the darned thing. Most guys get a grinder as soon as they can get the scratch, but I feel like I've got better stuff to spend the bucks on. Plus, I don't mind it. Kind of a challenge ya know?


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## mdavlee (Apr 7, 2013)

I've tried filing with both hands and the chain tight but I'm quicker that way. I've got a razor sharp II also. I do file some just to keep on practice. A lot of times I file in the vise with the chain locked down by vice grips. I can get 3 or 4 teeth on each side that way before I have to loosen them and roll the chain.


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## roberte (Apr 7, 2013)

View attachment 288901

All I did was nothing. O well , I held the file in place.


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## Joe46 (Apr 7, 2013)

roberte said:


> View attachment 288901
> 
> All I did was nothing. O well , I held the file in place.



Interesting. I always used a triangle file by hand. Never thought of setting one of those guides up to file square chisel.


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## roberte (Apr 8, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I've got some stihl semi skip in .063" and full comp square in .050" if you would like to try a loop of it against the oregon. Just let me know and I'll even put it on the grinder so you can try a better example of square chain.





roberte said:


> shoot, i'll sign up for that .063 111 driver




View attachment 289415
View attachment 289417

Well I took up the offer and mdavlee sent the chain, first grind as advertised. The chain came today, I put it on at the almost done point and gave it a try. Mind you falling a couple of firs and bucking the logs is not a huge sample size , but I'm impressed. So good job.

Hey Twochains, no joke


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## 1270d (Apr 8, 2013)

Could you show a close shot of your angles? I all put one up of what I'm running when I get back from thawing out in Arizona for a few weeks.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 8, 2013)

```

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woodchuck357 said:


> Save them or trade them or file 'em. Teeth sharpened with little or no angle don't cut as wide a kerf.



If you are going to make a statement like this. You should at least make sure u r correct first. 

Oregon does not make semi skip ripping chains. 

Where do some of you come up with some of these ideas?


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## northmanlogging (Apr 8, 2013)

for a big dirty spoon in the mix...

I converted 2 round file chains to chisel on friday... so far so good, one of em cuts better than the factory chisel, angles are still a bit steep didn't want to lose to much tooth.otstir:


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

imagineero said:


> The woodchuck is right. The chain isn't a rigid affair by a long shot, the rivets are not spun that tight, and there's plenty of room for wiggle in the bar even when the bar and chain are both brand new. Chains with less angle tend to cut a narrower kerf, while chains with more angle tend to cut a wider kerf. The top point does in fact get pulled off to each side, and at some point if you increase the angle too much you'll wear your bar groove out faster, as well as get slower cutting. As with everything, there's a sweet spot... and it turns out that for typical applications its right around the manufacturers reccomendation. Whod've thunk it?
> 
> 
> Shaun



Yes it may cut a little wider But. The amount that a lot of top angle wears out the drivers and the bar groove is not worth it.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

OK, so. Out of the box Oregon chisel doesn't cut so good. . Its not necessarily the actual sharpness, or the angles. 
They come with pretty high riders and worse of all the corner is too high. Sometimes it's over onto the top plate . They make the pro chains so some goon head can't take a factory chain and get his lunch eaten. 
There are so many things u can do with a chisel chain to make it cut this way or that, . If you stick with the factory grind but give it just a little beak on the top of the side and keep your riders at 30-35 thousands. It will cut amazing.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

From those I've seen on here mdavlee has the best knowledge of chisel grinding a chain to cut true hardwoods like what two chains is falling. . 

I myself run about 27° top angle. A little beak on the side strap and around 75° side angle. My riders at 35-40 k. . Its smooth aggressive and doesn't wear out the drivers and bar groove to quick. 

I need a magnifying glass to really see my corner anymore. Probably in hardwood you would want to minimize the beak on the side and try to be cornered up real good. 
Madsen's has put out a lot of good info on chisel chains.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh, one other thing I do is tho I run the top angle of the top of the cutter at 27° , I thin the underside of the top quite a bit. That is one of the things I prefer 
about the triangle chisel files . I can hog the inside of the tooth out and do gullets at the same time. For filing on the bar I always shove a wedge in on the bottom of the bar to get the chain real tight.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 9, 2013)

ive been trying to figure out different angles ,do these look too aggressive ? View attachment 289494
View attachment 289495
View attachment 289496
View attachment 289497


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 9, 2013)

couple more ,im not sure if can eyeball angles or if there;s a way to actually measure these View attachment 289498
View attachment 289499
View attachment 289500

in pic 3 an off the roll chain is on the left ,one on right i seem to lose a lot of the cutter on my first grind,should i be getting closer to the off the roll top plate angle ?and can i get that angle dressing the wheel differently ?


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

That chain looks good. What grinder are you using??? 

As a general rule there is a Huge amount of adjusting the dressers, stone height, chain holder height. How far fore and aft the tooth contacts the stone . 

You have a good grind right where your at. So any adjustments you do, do in small increments.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

I always use the factory corner as the stop gauge. You should be able to change the tooth to Your grind by the time you get cornered up.
Without taking hardly anything off the length of the tooth.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

NorthMan ; I prefer to start with pre round ground chain. Saves doing gullets as often. If I'm grinding that is.


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## 1270d (Apr 9, 2013)

My grind is pretty similar to trx's it seems to work well in our hardwood. Very little beak. Rakers around 30k


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 9, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> That chain looks good. What grinder are you using???
> 
> As a general rule there is a Huge amount of adjusting the dressers, stone height, chain holder height. How far fore and aft the tooth contacts the stone .
> 
> You have a good grind right where your at. So any adjustments you do, do in small increments.



grinder is silvey razur 2, the gullets and rakers aren't done yet in those pics,just first grind on an off the roll chain that i used some and outer tip got dull from some dirty wood ,is it faster with top of cutter across like stock ,i cant seem to get my grinder adjusted like that ? or kicked back some like i have it ? i think im about 22-25 or so degrees right now if i put in my round oregon grinder and turn the table so it lines the wheel up with my square chain ,i usually do my gullets with the round grinder after i sharpen on the silvey


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

How wore is your stone.? 
Its been a long time since I had a R.S. II.
I can't remember how to adjust it for fore and aft.
Do u hold the tooth down with your finger or thumb when the cutter is feeding into the stone?? 

This would be a good? For MDL as he uses an RS II


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 9, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> How wore is your stone.?
> Its been a long time since I had a R.S. II.
> I can't remember how to adjust it for fore and aft.
> Do u hold the tooth down with your finger or thumb when the cutter is feeding into the stone??
> ...



stone is pretty fresh ,i used to hold the chain to the stone ,once i figured how to adjust the stops better i just pull the lever and the tooth actually floats into the corner of the stone on its own now ,no more having to hold it and i grind till it doesn't grind anymore ,i seem to get all my teeth more even this way 

seems like the steeper i dress the top angle of the stone the tooth top angle changes some closer to factory grind ,i haven't messed too much changing dressing angles so not 100% on this


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## inbredJed (Apr 9, 2013)

*Thanks Tramp Busheller*

O.k. full disclosure: I'm a residential arborist who only files square because I'm obsessed with my saws beating my friend's saws. :rock

Sir, thank you so much for all that you've just divulged about grinding square. I've just learned more about square bit than I've learned in the last ten years on my own. Man, you like em' hungry though. Is Sitka soft enough to tolerate those angles? When you get into Fir, do you grind em' less mean? Here in the Puget Sound area, we might get into Sitka once in a blue moon, but it's almost all Fir and Cottonpig. (If not little Alders)

And to the guy who posted the pics: thank you so much. Great shots and (I'd say) great angles. Your riders look a hair high though. Or had you not taken em' down yet? Oh yeah, and I'd also say that you might have to dress your stone again. The side plate angle looked just the tiniest bit round. Man, you gentlemen are making me jealous for a grinder though. If I weren't so cheap, I'da had one years ago.:msp_sleep:


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## Rounder (Apr 9, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> That chain looks good. What grinder are you using???
> 
> As a general rule there is a Huge amount of adjusting the dressers, stone height, chain holder height. How far fore and aft the tooth contacts the stone .
> 
> You have a good grind right where your at. So any adjustments you do, do in small increments.



Just to add to add my own little trick when toying with dressers.....Before you move anything, use a pencil to mark where you're at.

It's saved me from myself a few times - Sam


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## inbredJed (Apr 9, 2013)

Tramp Busheller: Hey, I forgot to ask you about just one more thing. What in the world ever gave you the slight "side beak" idea? Why do you like it? Did an old-timer tell you about it? Did you grind it like that one day by accident, and then realize that you liked it better etc? That, and I also wanted to ask you about your top plate thinning Idea. :confused2: Man, I did that a ton by accident when I was just learning to file square. I thought that it would cut faster, (It did, or sure seemed to) but it prematurely dulled the bits really badly. Do you experience this a little too, or have you just found a happy medium? Man, I'm all curiosity, and all ears? ....big chain-sharpening geek I guess.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 9, 2013)

inbredJed said:


> O.k. full disclosure: I'm a residential arborist who only files square because I'm obsessed with my saws beating my friend's saws. :rock
> 
> Sir, thank you so much for all that you've just divulged about grinding square. I've just learned more about square bit than I've learned in the last ten years on my own. Man, you like em' hungry though. Is Sitka soft enough to tolerate those angles? When you get into Fir, do you grind em' less mean? Here in the Puget Sound area, we might get into Sitka once in a blue moon, but it's almost all Fir and Cottonpig. (If not little Alders)
> 
> And to the guy who posted the pics: thank you so much. Great shots and (I'd say) great angles. Your riders look a hair high though. Or had you not taken em' down yet? Oh yeah, and I'd also say that you might have to dress your stone again. The side plate angle looked just the tiniest bit round. Man, you gentlemen are making me jealous for a grinder though. If I weren't so cheap, I'da had one years ago.:msp_sleep:



that was just ground on the silvey,rakers weren't done yet ,next i throw it on the round grinder and do the gullets ,on a pretty new chain it gets 2 swipes on the rakers with a file normally ,heres an older pic i found after gullets cut ,im semi green on grinding so use my gray stone ,its pretty soft ,i normally have to dress it 1- 2 times each side of the chain ,if i see any black oil build up ,it gets a dress also 

View attachment 289547


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## Cfaller (Apr 9, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> stone is pretty fresh ,i used to hold the chain to the stone ,once i figured how to adjust the stops better i just pull the lever and the tooth actually floats into the corner of the stone on its own now ,no more having to hold it and i grind till it doesn't grind anymore ,i seem to get all my teeth more even this way
> 
> seems like the steeper i dress the top angle of the stone the tooth top angle changes some closer to factory grind ,i haven't messed too much changing dressing angles so not 100% on this



I believe it is impossible to match the factory angles because the cutters angles are set before the chain is assembled.


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## mdavlee (Apr 9, 2013)

You can get better angles than factory easily. Don't worry about nicking the tie straps. I've never broken a chain even on a 3120 when I've nicked the tie straps. A little side beak is way better than too high. 

Trx I think you're fine on the angles. I run more aggressive than most for hardwood. I'm not at home right now to get more pictures but I'm almost at a 30 degree top plate. Side angle is about 5 degrees. Rakers for me never go below .030" as in hardwoods it's too much for a 70cc saw. 

Roberte I'm glad the chain is working for you. 

I love testing different things out on chain. I like it more than porting the saws. I'll look and see if I have any more pictures to post for you guys.


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## inbredJed (Apr 9, 2013)

250 or 180: Thaks very much. I've got a ton to learn about grinding. Thinking of taking it on this summer... o.k. maybe fall... fall/winter.

C faller: Yeah, couldn't agree more. It's my belief that Oregon uses one "stone" (for lack of a better word) for the side and another for the top. At the very least, I can tell you that their factory angles certainly don't match the angles that the triangle or double-bev would produce. Seems to me that Oregon's grind is too steep on the top-plate while being too acute on the side plate. Then again, who cares since the factory grind sux? :taped:


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## northmanlogging (Apr 9, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> NorthMan ; I prefer to start with pre round ground chain. Saves doing gullets as often. If I'm grinding that is.



The two chains in question where about half worn, only started running chisel since I got the new saw... too cheap to go out and buy more chains so I just forgot to grab my round file...

I think (not sure) that chisel chains are cheaper by like a dollar at the local saw shop...


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## inbredJed (Apr 9, 2013)

mdavlee: Thanks. Would love to see more pics. Don't know how to post em' myself. :msp_mad:


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## inbredJed (Apr 9, 2013)

Northman: Yeah, funny thing that Busheler said also: I've always preferred "converting" round to square--less side material to have to hog-out. :rolleyes2:


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## mdavlee (Apr 9, 2013)

Oregon and Stihl cutters brand new.







Converted cutter






New Stihl cutter


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

The first cutting contractor that I cut for on Prince of Wales Island, Jess Hull. From Morton was a firm believer in a little beak. Jess has prolly fell as much timber as any man alive on planet earth. Jim Byron would give him a run for his money but not many other men would. Neither was the fastest man I've watched cut timber. But they both were consistentlytop cutters on their crews. For decades. And that's being up against top Alaska bushlers. 

Anyway. For years I ran 404 . 52 AK and a few hundred feet of 52 AJ that's what I learned to chisel file on and to grind on . Having a beak on made it a little rough on a hard hemlock stump but it fed REAL good in red cedar. Pretty quick on the limbs too. 
And you never want top beak. Never. . Hoggin out the inside of the cutters is something you don't want to get too carried away with. Jack Jodry showed me that trick. Another top bushler for a lot of years.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

I will take down the gullet for about 3 licks, hog out the inside about 3 or 4 licks then finish off the cutting edge with about 3 licks. 
I dress the stone pretty thick for the side. Cuts down on how many times I need to do gullets when I'm grinding.

If I'm going to be cutting some real soft wet timber, I thin the outside of the rider. It let's the cutter go a little wider without having to change my grind.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

For about as many different cutters as there is on a crew you will see different ways of the fine points on putting up a sharp chain. The way I do it is just my way. Mine won't win any competitions but it works real good for me.


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## roberte (Apr 9, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> You can get better angles than factory easily. Don't worry about nicking the tie straps. I've never broken a chain even on a 3120 when I've nicked the tie straps. A little side beak is way better than too high.
> 
> Trx I think you're fine on the angles. I run more aggressive than most for hardwood. I'm not at home right now to get more pictures but I'm almost at a 30 degree top plate. Side angle is about 5 degrees. Rakers for me never go below .030" as in hardwoods it's too much for a 70cc saw.
> 
> ...



If you used 30 & 5, then I will roll with that. I have been using 30 & 10 for years. Anyway good job.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh, Jed, I've never stuck a saw into a Doug fir tree in my life. I've been to Washington state so I know I've seen them. Just didn't know that was what I was seeing :msp_confused:


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## mdavlee (Apr 9, 2013)

Brian how close are you running the chain holder to the stone? That will change the top plate angle to steeper as you get closer to the stone.


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## roberte (Apr 9, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> For about as many different cutters as there is on a crew you will see different ways of the fine points on putting up a sharp chain. The way I do it is just my way. Mine won't win any competitions but it works real good for me.



Isn't that the truth. I do what I do and it works for me. 
I usually end up fixing some of associates "hand filing" Omg.


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## inbredJed (Apr 9, 2013)

Super informative Tramp. Amazing stuff. Thanks so much for the trade secrets. Some of this stuff just never gets handed down, ya know?....


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## tramp bushler (Apr 9, 2013)

Jed. Isn't Snoqualmi close to Darrington. 
The man that broke me in cutting in Alaska.was from Darrington.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 9, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Jed. Isn't Snoqualmi close to Darrington.
> The man that broke me in cutting in Alaska.was from Darrington.



Its close on a map, but by road it takes about an hour and a half, depending on which route you take...


Got a name for this Darrington guy, strong chance I may know him


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## inbredJed (Apr 10, 2013)

Yeah, locally here tons of legends abound about loggers from Darington. I wish there were still more going on out that way so that a lowly arborist like myself could actually get the chance to get broken in proper!

Darn Spotted Owl... :msp_mad:


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 10, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Brian how close are you running the chain holder to the stone? That will change the top plate angle to steeper as you get closer to the stone.




I took some pics of my grinder setup will have to post tomaro,my phones not posting them for some reason


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## tramp bushler (Apr 10, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> st
> 
> seems like the steeper i dress the top angle of the stone the tooth top angle changes some closer to factory grind ,i haven't messed too much changing dressing angles so not 100% on this



Ya, the balance of top plate angle and the face of the top plate's angle. 
A steeper dresser angle for the top of the stone will give you steeper face angle and more top plate angle. 
A shallow angle on the top dresser will a shallower face angle and will give less angle on the top plate.. 
But, moving the chain holder forward or back changes the angles also. 
I can't remember on the RS II if the chain holders move or if the motor does. But I think its the chain holders. 
Like Sam, I make index marks on my dressers BEFORE I move them.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 10, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> Brian how close are you running the chain holder to the stone? That will change the top plate angle to steeper as you get closer to the stone.



here is some pics pulling on the lever where my cutter ends up with stops adjusted ,some are blurry ,hopefully can see enough off these View attachment 289669
View attachment 289671
View attachment 289672
View attachment 289673
View attachment 289674


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 10, 2013)

couple more images View attachment 289675
View attachment 289676
View attachment 289677


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## mdavlee (Apr 10, 2013)

I think from what I'm seeing you're farther away from the stone. I slide the whole thing up to where underneath there's about a 1/4" between the stone and the block the slide is bolted to. That will give you more top plate angle if you're looking for more without changing anything else.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 10, 2013)

mdavlee said:


> I think from what I'm seeing you're farther away from the stone. I slide the whole thing up to where underneath there's about a 1/4" between the stone and the block the slide is bolted to. That will give you more top plate angle if you're looking for more without changing anything else.



i will try that see what it does


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