# Rigging knots



## Charsha1 (Jul 27, 2010)

I was using a clip to lower a few branches but figure I want to do it right. So what is the right way to tie to a branch to lower it? Thank you.


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## lone wolf (Jul 27, 2010)

A running bowline


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## Charsha1 (Jul 27, 2010)

How do u tie a running bowtie? Where can I see a pic or a diagram of one?


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## lone wolf (Jul 27, 2010)

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-tie-running-bowline-knot-for-boating-251739/view/


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## Charsha1 (Jul 27, 2010)

I love this sight. Thanks for the info. This sight is so much better then the motorcycle stunt sight I belong to.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 27, 2010)

How many times do I have to wrap my line around the branch before I tie the knot?


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## lone wolf (Jul 27, 2010)

charsha1 said:


> how many times do i have to wrap my line around the branch before i tie the knot?



1


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## Charsha1 (Jul 27, 2010)

Y is it I tied the knot 5 times and everytime it came out different.


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## tree md (Jul 28, 2010)

Running Bowline:





































I use the running bowline about 99% of the time. If there is any chance that it might slip off the limb I am lowering I like to use a clove hitch.

A good place to learn knots:

http://www.mytreelessons.com/


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## 7Distel (Jul 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> Running Bowline:



*Is that a "Dutch" Bowline?* (also known as; "Cowboy" or "Left-handed" Bowline)

Standard Bowline (left); "Dutch" Bowline (right)


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## tree md (Jul 28, 2010)

No, It's tied just as the diagram on the left, a standard bowline. I guess it's you just can't see which end is the tail of my rope. I was tying the knot and taking the pic by myself.

Kind of interesting though. I always thought a left handed bowline was when you tie it with the working end or the initial turn on the right instead of the left, as would come natural for a south paw.


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## 7Distel (Jul 28, 2010)

7Distel said:


> Is that a "Dutch" Bowline?





tree md said:


> No, ...



Aw, shucks! Sure looked like it. I was hoping it was. I've read some swear by it and some swear at it. I wanted to learn more about it from someone who uses it. 

Anyway, it's probably good for the OP to know the difference.


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## tree md (Jul 28, 2010)

I have heard that there can be some complications when tying a left handed bowline, though I can't remember what they were. Seems like the knot is more apt to roll or tumble. I have only read about this though and certainly haven't experienced it first hand. Like I said, I was under the impression that a left handed bowline was tied with the standing part and running end of the line reversed, which I have tied before when in an awkward position. Looks like I was mistaken in my understanding of the knot.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 28, 2010)

So I just wrap it around the branch once then tie a bowline knot and that's it? Is tv knot supposed to side tight?


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## JeffL (Jul 28, 2010)

Its a cinching knot, yes it will get tight.


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## lone wolf (Jul 28, 2010)

Charsha1 said:


> So I just wrap it around the branch once then tie a bowline knot and that's it? Is tv knot supposed to side tight?



Yes wrap it around the branch once and tie a bowline around the other part of the rope and it will slide down and tighten when pulled.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 28, 2010)

Looking at ur last pic you would just pull on the lead line and it will tighten on the branch? And that small loup will be seen when tighten? And it's able to loosen up easy?


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## lone wolf (Jul 28, 2010)

Charsha1 said:


> Looking at ur last pic you would just pull on the lead line and it will tighten on the branch? And that small loup will be seen when tighten? And it's able to loosen up easy?



best knot in the world it will loosen up when you untie it.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 28, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> best knot in the world it will loosen up when you untie it.




I have to be doing something wrong because my know won't tighten up. The large loop will not tighten. I should have studied more in boy scouts


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## lone wolf (Jul 28, 2010)

Charsha1 said:


> I have to be doing something wrong because my know won't tighten up. The large loop will not tighten. I should have studied more in boy scouts



grab the two parts at the bottem as shown in tree md pic number 6, and the one at the top and pull.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 28, 2010)

Mine looks just like pic 7 but I don't under stand how it's going to tighten up. I thought when it gets tight the ONLY way to get it loose is to untie it


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## lone wolf (Jul 28, 2010)

try this make a small loop with about 3 feet of tail 
put the rope up the loop from the bottem
go around the standing part 
then back dow the hole 
grab the two pieces on the bottem and the one piece on the top and pull tight at the same time.


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## deevo (Jul 28, 2010)

Just go buy the art & science of practical rigging book or dvd set already before you start lowering limbs, branches etc..... it's got all the required knots for rigging. As well buy the tree climbers companion from Jeff Jepson. Teaches you most of the commonly used knots as well. :greenchainsaw:
http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Books-Videos_5
You will have all your questions answered plus a little education out of it!
Oh yeah make sure you are doing it with someone who is trained and knows what they are doing.


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## tree md (Jul 28, 2010)

If you worked for me you wouldn't leave the ground until you at least had your friction hitch and the running bowline down. And then you wouldn't get off the ground with anything but a handsaw.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> If you worked for me you wouldn't leave the ground until you at least had your friction hitch and the running bowline down. And then you wouldn't get off the ground with anything but a handsaw.




That's how it should be but rght now I cans do it that way. By the way every time I figure out a new knot I spend prob 10 hours tieing and untieing the know untill I can tie it without looking or thinking about it. Plus I'll never use it in a tree untill I feel good using the new knot on the ground.


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## TrillPhil (Jul 29, 2010)

I like a clove hitch more..

wrap around, OVER the top of the rope at an angle, wrap around, UNDER the cross, two half hitches


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## lone wolf (Jul 30, 2010)

Well Charsha did you get it yet?


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## Charsha1 (Jul 30, 2010)

I looked at a few on YouTube and it looks like I'm doing right wine the start but I'm still going to bye the book about rigging anyway.


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## grizzly2 (Jul 30, 2010)

I'm not sure if this will help, but: 

I think you might be expecting the wrong part of the knot to tighten up. The loop created by a regular bowline will not and should not tighten up when force is put on it. A running bowline, on the other hand, is a choker style knot. If you keep that in mind when tying it, it may help you understand what is supposed to happen. Learn how to tie a bowline really well. Then, incorporate the 'running' part into it.


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## pdqdl (Jul 30, 2010)

TrillPhil said:


> I like a clove hitch more..
> 
> wrap around, OVER the top of the rope at an angle, wrap around, UNDER the cross, two half hitches




The clove hitch is not a safe knot to rig branches with.

1. It can roll out, dropping the load.
2. All the books and references that I know of say "don't use for rigging", or something like that.
3. It can jam up tight on a branch and be very difficult to remove.


Use a timber hitch instead. More secure, easier to tie, less work to untie. Running bowline works fine, but can shake loose of the end, particularly on a large diameter log.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 30, 2010)

grizzly2 said:


> I'm not sure if this will help, but:
> 
> I think you might be expecting the wrong part of the knot to tighten up. The loop created by a regular bowline will not and should not tighten up when force is put on it. A running bowline, on the other hand, is a choker style knot. If you keep that in mind when tying it, it may help you understand what is supposed to happen. Learn how to tie a bowline really well. Then, incorporate the 'running' part into it.





I think I understand the lupe that is made does not get tight on the pulling line right? So if I tie the know and set it I can alway move the rope a little on the branch before it gets snugged up to cut. 

I think I should just come work to one of u guys for a few months.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 30, 2010)

And by the way I'm not some dumb &$$ I'm a fast learner but I also will not do anything that unless I'm 100% sure I can handle it in less it's on a motorcycle. LOL


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## grizzly2 (Jul 30, 2010)

I don't think you're dumb. The dumb ones are out there trying to figure this stuff out all by themselves. You're at least on here wanting to learn. That's pretty big. 

http://www.netknots.com/html/running_bowline.html

Another site that might help. I hate to beat a dead horse for you, but this is one of those knots that once you master it, you'll use it all the time.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 30, 2010)

grizzly2 said:


> I don't think you're dumb. The dumb ones are out there trying to figure this stuff out all by themselves. You're at least on here wanting to learn. That's pretty big.
> 
> http://www.netknots.com/html/running_bowline.html
> 
> Another site that might help. I hate to beat a dead horse for you, but this is one of those knots that once you master it, you'll use it all the time.



I can do that knot but when I pull it it seems like it's going to slide off but maybe it's just me. Do u still use that knot when you top a tree and lower it or a branch that stands stright up?


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## tree md (Jul 30, 2010)

On the clove hitch: 

I have read that it will roll out too but have never seen it happen first hand. I was taught to use both the running bowline and the clove hitch when I was learning, although we called the clove hitch the claw hitch or cross claw in my circle back then. And i have seen some huge spar pieces tied off with that knot back when we were butt hitching without a block. It is great to use when you are lowering multiple limbs at the same time. I will rope two or three with the clove hitch and terminate with a running bowline. Works great. However, the running bowline is a much more functional knot. You can tie it at arms length and draw it up to your tie off point. Likewise, the groundies can pull it out from the piece and untie it at arms length.

Charsha1,

When I was first starting out the climber I worked for cut me about a 6' length of rope and gave me the task of learning 4 knots, a prussic for my friction hitch, a running bowline, a claw hitch or clove hitch and the butterfly knot. I had to learn all of those knots before I was allowed to climb. I carried my practice rope with me everywhere. Even when I was drinking beer at night I was practicing my knots. I lived with the climber that I worked for so I always had him around to check my knots. I had all four knots down within a week. If you lived closer I would put you to work.


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## Charsha1 (Jul 30, 2010)

tree md said:


> On the clove hitch:
> 
> I have read that it will roll out too but have never seen it happen first hand. I was taught to use both the running bowline and the clove hitch when I was learning, although we called the clove hitch the claw hitch or cross claw in my circle back then. And i have seen some huge spar pieces tied off with that knot back when we were butt hitching without a block. It is great to use when you are lowering multiple limbs at the same time. I will rope two or three with the clove hitch and terminate with a running bowline. Works great. However, the running bowline is a much more functional knot. You can tie it at arms length and draw it up to your tie off point. Likewise, the groundies can pull it out from the piece and untie it at arms length.
> 
> ...




I have a 12' section the my kids pratice with that I've been using. I use a blakes hitch to climb with. I only started climbing because I my kids and now I'm hooked. If u have work through the winter I would be willing to come out and work all winter long we don't pour much concrete around here after Christmas.


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## pdqdl (Jul 30, 2010)

tree md said:


> ...
> When I was first starting out the climber I worked for cut me about a 6' length of rope and gave me the task of learning 4 knots, a prussic for my friction hitch, a running bowline, a claw hitch or clove hitch and the butterfly knot...



I am very curious about that! 

Why would an "old school" climber insist on learning the alpine butterfly (if that is what you are calling "the butterfly knot")? That is such a seldom used knot, I am wondering what he was making you learn it for? Perhaps we are talking about a different knot, or perhaps I need to learn some new applications.


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## tree md (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes, you are correct. Same knot. 

Back then we used it on a daily basis to cinch trees down as well as other applications. Today I would be more likely to set up a Z rig with pulleys and biners or use a prussic cord but when I started out we used the butterfly knot for those applications. I can set up a rig and cinch a tree down with nothing more than a bull line. We used to call it the "ten man pull".


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## pdqdl (Jul 30, 2010)

I thought it might be for that, but I never have needed to do that very often. Of coarse, I always did that using the "man-harness" knot, and I have never really learned how to consistently tie the butterfly.

It was pretty progressive of your mentor to teach you that.


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## grizzly2 (Jul 31, 2010)

Charsha1 said:


> I can do that knot but when I pull it it seems like it's going to slide off but maybe it's just me. Do u still use that knot when you top a tree and lower it or a branch that stands stright up?



Yes, I'll use the running bowline for the majority of rigging. It's easy to tie (once you learn it), it's easy to untie, it's adjustable on the limb. I'll switch to a Marl if I don't have anything for the knot to catch on (branch/stub/etc.). I've also tied a cross between the running bowline and marl to secure something that I changed my mind on. It's all about adding as many knots to the 'mental toolbox' as I can. Then I can mix, match, or combine when I need them.


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## grizzly2 (Jul 31, 2010)

Here's the Marl. I know, you get on here to ask about one knot, and we keep throwing more at you.


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## 7Distel (Jul 31, 2010)

*BOWLINE*
*RUNNING BOWLINE :love1:*
*"MARL" (Marline Hitch)*
*TIMBER HITCH (wth Killick Hitch)*


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## lone wolf (Jul 31, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> The clove hitch is not a safe knot to rig branches with.
> 
> 1. It can roll out, dropping the load.
> 2. All the books and references that I know of say "don't use for rigging", or something like that.
> ...



I saw it roll out never used it again.


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## TreEmergencyB (Jul 31, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> The clove hitch is not a safe knot to rig branches with.
> 
> 1. It can roll out, dropping the load.
> 2. All the books and references that I know of say "don't use for rigging", or something like that.
> ...



I disagree a clove hitch with out a half hitch back up with roll out but i've never seen one with a half hitch back up 'roll out' it just continues to tighten. And i cant see the timber hitch being easier to untie on the ground.


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## tree md (Jul 31, 2010)

Agreed, marl and running bowline are best for lowering. I always use a marl on anything heavy.


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## tree md (Jul 31, 2010)

Actually, the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than the clove hitch. Texts always warn of the danger using the timber hitch as well as the clove hitch. I agree though, a clove hitch should always be backed up with a half hitch and I have never seen one fail. Still, I feel the running bowline is a superior knot for rigging. I very seldom use anything else.


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## lone wolf (Jul 31, 2010)

tree md said:


> Actually, the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than the clove hitch. Texts always warn of the danger using the timber hitch as well as the clove hitch. I agree though, a clove hitch should always be backed up with a half hitch and I have never seen one fail. Still, I feel the running bowline is a superior knot for rigging. I very seldom use anything else.



Agreed running bowline best knot to use.


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## TrillPhil (Jul 31, 2010)

I've seen a bullrope almost break (you know what I mean, another 50 lbs of weight and it would've snapped instead of leaving one little strand hanging) and the clove hitch be fine. Always easy to untie unless tied backwards... But I don't have much experience and I was taught running bowline, clove and marl... But we just always use a clove hitch with 2 half hitches... 

In the bedroom... Running bowline is a little more practical..


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## angelo c (Aug 1, 2010)

now for the really challenged "know nothing knot tier"...

like me who can watch it over and over and still knot get it right.

http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

it allows you to frame by frame the knot.


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## tree MDS (Aug 1, 2010)

tree md said:


> Agreed, marl and running bowline are best for lowering. I always use a marl on anything heavy.



I believe technically (according to JPS anyway), that is considered a half hitch. I always called it a marl too though.


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## pdqdl (Aug 2, 2010)

grizzly2 said:


> Here's the Marl. I know, you get on here to ask about one knot, and we keep throwing more at you.



That is actually a clove hitch holding the end of the rope, and marl holding the load when it drops. That should be quite secure, as the marl protects the clove from rolling out.


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## pdqdl (Aug 2, 2010)

tree md said:


> Actually, the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than the clove hitch. Texts always warn of the danger using the timber hitch as well as the clove hitch. I agree though, a clove hitch should always be backed up with a half hitch and I have never seen one fail. Still, I feel the running bowline is a superior knot for rigging. I very seldom use anything else.



I don't want to start a p-match over what it the "best" rigging knot. Pointless, especially when you and I agree on so many other points. I like both knots, each for it's own application.

Timber hitch is far more likely to fail if tied improperly, which is why I suspect that so many folks don't like it. They don't do it right one time, ...Ooops!, then they never use it again. 

I would like to see a text book that says the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than a clove hitch. ABOK certainly doesn't. Got a quote on that?


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## pdqdl (Aug 2, 2010)

BTW, My preferences:

Timber hitch holding a marl for big wood: faster to tie, stronger, easier for GM to untie.

Timber hitch alone: small wood: faster to tie, easier for GM to untie.

Running bowline: best for remotely set rigging. You can push a rope over a distant branch, tie it off, then pull out the slack. Plenty strong, and requires no marl to keep it's strength. On the other hand, if not held by marl, it is unsuitable for attachment close to the end of a branch, because it can fall off the end before the weight sets it tight.

Stilson hitch: Short, fat logs. Very secure, and is tight before the log drops. Tedious to tie and un-tie.


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## pdqdl (Aug 2, 2010)

loop, twist, twist, yank...cut branch. It ties quicker than a bowline. Not set properly, it will fall out, but I know how to do it right, see? 

My groundies can untie it faster, and give me the rope quicker. It puts me back to tying the next branch quicker.

I can understand why a lot of guys stick to the knot they know. If that means bowline, that's fine too. I know a guy that has been climbing for at least 15 years. He still ties everything with a stilson. Two wraps, cow-hitch style, followed by a couple of half hitches. Slower than death, especially for just a single branch that could be tied with almost anything. To his credit, he never looses a branch from a poorly tied rope.

I have gone mostly to speedlines now. I give the groundies a port-a-wrap on something nearby (like the chipper, whenever possible!), and clip a loopie onto a carabiner, and slide the branches down as quick as I can. Sometimes it is faster than not roping at all: you can get the branches out of the work zone when it comes down, rather than waiting for the groundies to cut it up or drag it aside. Then...drop a few more beneath the tree while they are working on getting the rope freed up for a few more speedline drops.


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## pdqdl (Aug 2, 2010)

I guess I should clarify: Really big wood that requires spurring around the tree to tie the timber hitch begs for a running bowline secured with a marl. It's too much work to walk around the trunk to put the twists in the timber hitch in the right places so that it is secure. I'd say anything bigger than 3-4 feet diameter. It kind of depends on how much room there is to throw the tail back around the tree.

Running bowline does not have that problem, as it can be pulled tight from where you were standing when it was tied.

I would be using the bowline in that application out of personal laziness, not because I thought it was better for doing the job. I don't think there is any single hitch stronger than a timber hitch. The only thing stronger is the marl/ half hitch that I put in front of it.


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## tree md (Aug 2, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I don't want to start a p-match over what it the "best" rigging knot. Pointless, especially when you and I agree on so many other points. I like both knots, each for it's own application.
> 
> Timber hitch is far more likely to fail if tied improperly, which is why I suspect that so many folks don't like it. They don't do it right one time, ...Ooops!, then they never use it again.
> 
> I would like to see a text book that says the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than a clove hitch. ABOK certainly doesn't. Got a quote on that?



Not to worry buddy. That's the great thing about America, we are allowed to disagree.

I hate it when someone takes offense because I don't agree with them on something or thinks that I take offense because they don't agree with me. I am very opinionated and prolly come on a little strong at times because, well, I have been the boss on the job since 94 and it's my way or the highway on my job. 

To tell the truth, I have read so much on rigging and knots that I can't remember exactly where I read that. Maybe the TCC? I'll have to look through my books. I have a copy of the TCC around somewhere but have misplaced it at the moment.

Here is the jist of what I remember reading. The timber hitch is THE traditional knot for working in the timber and logging trades, hence the name. It was used for hundreds of years for nearly every hitching application in the trade. However, in more recent years it has been abandoned to a large degree in favor of more functional knots. It was warned that there is the possibility of it rolling out during lowering operations. I have read the same about the clove hitch. 

My thoughts are that you would probably be OK with either knot as long as you back it up with a half hitch which will force it to be pulled along the ideal axis of the rope. I have had a timber hitch fail when it was heavily loaded along the wrong axis. It rolled right out. I was using it on a snatch block as a stationary hitch on a tree trunk. Instead of being loaded at a 90 degree angle the block was pulled straight out which caused the knot to fail. With the unpredictability of a log being lowered I could see that potentially becoming a problem with a timber hitch unless it was backed up with a half hitch to force it to be pulled along the correct axis.

The ABOK is a great book, no doubt, but it is a little dated. It recommends a lot of old school knots (especially in the tree surgeon chapter) where other knots have proven to be more functional. When I started out it was common place for the clove hitch to be used as a rigging knot for lowering limbs and chunks. We called it a claw hitch and even more commonly in my circle, a cross claw. I believe it was taught as a cross claw to remind rookie climbers that it needs to be crossed like an X for it to be tied properly. At least that is my best guess. In any event, it has fallen out of favor with most as well.

It was also common place to tie a biner or rope snap on to a life support system with a bowline. These days that is a no no. It has been learned that that knot can roll out as well. Knots and their applications seem to change with the times. And for the good IMO. The trade is continually evolving.

I'll look through my books and see if I can nail down a quote with a source for you but that is the jist of what I remember reading.


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## lone wolf (Aug 2, 2010)

tree md said:


> Not to worry buddy. That's the great thing about America, we are allowed to disagree.
> 
> I hate it when someone takes offense because I don't agree with them on something or thinks that I take offense because they don't agree with me. I am very opinionated and prolly come on a little strong at times because, well, I have been the boss on the job since 94 and it's my way or the highway on my job.
> 
> ...



Bowline with a biner will roll out what kind of rope for this to happen?I have been using it for 36 years hasn't rolled yet and ain't going to.


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## tree md (Aug 2, 2010)

There are too many sources on the bowline on a biner topic to list. A quick search should render lots of results. Treeco is correct, any attachment knot used for life support needs to cinch up tight on the biner or snap. I use the scaffold knot as well.

PDQL,

I found my TCC. It says quote:

_"Unless the hitch is proceeded by a half hitch this knot is not recommended for tying off limbs for lowering because of it's potential to 'roll out'. Even still, the clove hitch and running bowline perform this latter function better"._

I also found this quote worthwhile and thought it would be educational for this thread:

_"It is recommended that at least five tucks or turns be made around the standing part for this hitch to function properly"._

This is not the text that I was thinking of that went into much more depth on the history and explanation of the timber hitch but it should suffice.


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## lone wolf (Aug 2, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Biners should only be used with knots that 'cinch' up on the biner so as not to move around. A bowline can move around on a biner and the load may end up being on the gate....a very bad thing. I use the anchor hitch when attaching to biners such at the end of my climbing line and a scaffold hitch when attaching the two ends of my tress cord to a biner.



I use a captive eye carabiner guess I should have said that are you familiar with it? http://gmesupply.com/13195-aluminum-captive-carabiner-p-57082.html


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## tree md (Aug 2, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I believe thirty six years pre-dates captive eye biners.
> 
> Yes, it does make a difference that you use captive eye biners but a scaffold hitch would still be better to use than a bowline. An anchor hitch wouldn't fit in the eye of the biner well nor in the eye of a snap.



X2


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## lone wolf (Aug 2, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I believe thirty six years pre-dates captive eye biners.
> 
> Yes, it does make a difference that you use captive eye biners but a scaffold hitch would still be better to use than a bowline. An anchor hitch wouldn't fit in the eye of the biner well nor in the eye of a snap.



then there was somthing else a steel hook with a captive eye.


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## Bermie (Aug 2, 2010)

Discussions like this on AS got me to move on from my bowline on the biner for life support.
Despite that I was taught to do this, the discussions on AS were measured and factual and I tried using the fisherman's instead...I liked it, got good at tying it and will not go back to a bowline on the biner.

SO this discussion on rigging knots that has managed to remain calm and adult has given me some hmmm moments and some different things to try on my next rigging job.

Thanks for keeping it sensible guys


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## tree md (Aug 2, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Discussions like this on AS got me to move on from my bowline on the biner for life support.
> Despite that I was taught to do this, the discussions on AS were measured and factual and I tried using the fisherman's instead...I liked it, got good at tying it and will not go back to a bowline on the biner.
> 
> SO this discussion on rigging knots that has managed to remain calm and adult has given me some hmmm moments and some different things to try on my next rigging job.
> ...



Yes Bermie, I guess we do sound like a bunch of turkeys crowing in the locker room at times. I know I have been guilty of sounding like I am talking to my guys on the job site at times. Easy to forget that we have those of the more delicate (and more sensible) gender around here. I'll try to keep that more in mind.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 2, 2010)

Wow, this went to #69!. All is good, Just having that half-hitch (marl) on there makes them all good, or just throw another half-hitch (marl) on there and get it done.
Jeff


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## tree md (Aug 2, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Wow, this went to #69!. All is good, Just having that half-hitch (marl) on there makes them all good, or just throw another half-hitch (marl) on there and get it done.
> Jeff



I was shooting for 68 and I'll owe you one.... Doh! There I go again! :greenchainsaw:


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 2, 2010)

tree md said:


> I was shooting for 68 and I'll owe you one.... Doh! There I go again! :greenchainsaw:



We are even, bud!

Jeff ABDG


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## Charsha1 (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks to all I got the rest of the tree down today and I belove I was using a clove hitch to a running bowline about a foot higher. My buddy said it wouldent work but we didn't have one problem. Then again I didn't relize how much a 460 kicks ur but when I was cutting chucks of the stalk. But the 60' tree is sitting down on the ground. But once again thank you to everyone. But then again I would like to keep learning from you guys so please keep the great info comming.


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## Charsha1 (Aug 3, 2010)

The only problem was when I was cutting a branch it pulled the chain out of the bar and didn't seem to ride right. Then when I topped the tree it when the top fell it took my saw with it now part if the chain does not fit right. If I pull the chain off the bar it will not set back in without wiggling back in. And when I move the chain it does the same on the top but the other have of the chain fits fine on the whole bar


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## pdqdl (Aug 3, 2010)

tree md said:


> There are too many sources on the bowline on a biner topic to list. A quick search should render lots of results. Treeco is correct, any attachment knot used for life support needs to cinch up tight on the biner or snap. I use the scaffold knot as well.
> 
> PDQ*D*L,
> 
> ...



Good! I'm glad you found your reference. I recall reading the five tucks, but I have apparently missed the other comments. _Thanks for nailing me with that one._

Well...All I can say is that the TCC is a good book, but it certainly isn't the final word. The author clearly is not fond of the timber hitch. Myself, I don't think I have ever used five tucks, and I have never had a timber hitch pull out.

I suspect that the author is one of those experienced climbers who never learned to use this knot. As I have already pointed out, it is rather sensitive to being tied and set correctly. Done wrong, and it will pull out in a heartbeat. For an inexperienced climber, I would strongly recommend learning the running bowline as a primary knot, then learning to use other methods for improved convenience and safety. 

I don't like the timber hitch best because it is more reliable, I am fond of it because it cannot be made hard to untie, and it is faster for my groundies to untie. So far, nearly all of the tree climbers that I have trained over the past 25 years have graduated to _preferring_ the timber hitch for rigging, after I almost choked them by the neck making them learn how to use it. As we can see from almost every thread hear at AS, many tree workers are not terribly inclined to changing their methods or learning new ways.

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I still wish to take exception to the "roll out" comment. I think that the phrase is misleading. A clove hitch will literally roll out, if attached to a post that is not anchored, much like a log that is dropping. If the log, branch, or post is firmly anchored, the clove hitch holds pretty darned well. A slick surface is much more likely to have this problem than a rough textured log.

The timber hitch literally cannot "roll" out, since the tail turns back on itself. Of course, that tail can be pulled out, but that would be a knot "failure to hold", not "rolling out". This same logic applies to bowline, taut line hitch, or any other knot that is accused of being prone to failure. They are pulling out under load, not unwinding from their attachment point.

I know. It's all just semantics.


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## Bermie (Aug 3, 2010)

Sounds like you pinched your bar Charsha...either that or you've put a kink in the chain from when it came off or when the saw got pulled with the top.

When you got the saw pulled out of your hands, had you made a snap cut (two parallel overlapping cuts) or a wedge and a back cut?
Sequencing the cuts properly when there is a lot of weight that will go on its own is key to not having this happen.


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