# climbing gaffs and belts



## boutselis (Apr 17, 2010)

I have never used these. I have always used a ladder and ropes (not to mention a come along jack) 



could some one please give me some pointers on what to look for in a used set?

can line man gaffs and belts be used?

Aluminum gaffs? why aren't they all steel?

I have always taught myself to do everything I have done, is this one of those things that I shouldn't learn on my own (I bet I will never go above 50') and have any of you just started up a tree without instruction?


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## RacerX (Apr 17, 2010)

How are you at spur-less climbing techniques such as DdRT or SRT?


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## boutselis (Apr 17, 2010)

RacerX said:


> How are you at spur-less climbing techniques such as DdRT or SRT?



if the branches are low enough and not spaced to far apart I can get up there, not as good as I could as a kid (man did I climb some trees)

but other than that...... I don't have any idea what you mean. sorry.

I knew a guy who could climb pretty high just by shimmying up.


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## rarefish383 (Apr 18, 2010)

You can only get killed once, and doing this on your own is a good way to succeed. I would never use used climbing gear. Why would someone get rid of it? It's wore out. I saw a pile of saddles and flip lines at an auction a couple weeks ago that looked brand new. Maybe I'd take a chance with real good inspection. But you don't know what to look for when you are inspecting the gear. Best way is to find a good teacher.

You didn't say why you want to start climbing? Are you expanding your business or it just looks fun? 

Don't worry about going over 50 feet, statisticaly any fall over 30 feet is fatal, so 50 or 100 doesn't matter.

My closing remark was going to be good luck and be carefull, then I had a thought. If you have never done this, how do you know if what you are doing falls in the realm of being carefull or being suicidal?

Maybe one of our members in Florida will take a Sat and show you some basics. good luck and be careful, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Apr 18, 2010)

You can only get killed once, and doing this on your own is a good way to succeed. I would never use used climbing gear. Why would someone get rid of it? It's wore out. I saw a pile of saddles and flip lines at an auction a couple weeks ago that looked brand new. Maybe I'd take a chance with real good inspection. But you don't know what to look for when you are inspecting the gear. Best way is to find a good teacher.

You didn't say why you want to start climbing? Are you expanding your business or it just looks fun? 

Don't worry about going over 50 feet, statisticaly any fall over 30 feet is fatal, so 50 or 100 doesn't matter.

My closing remark was going to be good luck and be carefull, then I had a thought. If you have never done this, how do you know if what you are doing falls in the realm of being carefull or being suicidal?

Maybe one of our members in Florida will take a Sat and show you some basics. Good luck and be careful, Joe.


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## RacerX (Apr 18, 2010)

boutselis said:


> if the branches are low enough and not spaced to far apart I can get up there, not as good as I could as a kid (man did I climb some trees)
> 
> but other than that...... I don't have any idea what you mean. sorry.
> 
> I knew a guy who could climb pretty high just by shimmying up.



My suggestion would be to learn the basics of climbing without spurs first. This will allow you to safely get off of the ground while learning to use the spurs. One problem is that spurs will damage the tree, so if you're just learning you really need to find a tree that will be eventually removed.


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## boutselis (Apr 18, 2010)

rarefish383 said:


> You can only get killed once, and doing this on your own is a good way to succeed. I would never use used climbing gear. Why would someone get rid of it? It's wore out. I saw a pile of saddles and flip lines at an auction a couple weeks ago that looked brand new. Maybe I'd take a chance with real good inspection. But you don't know what to look for when you are inspecting the gear. Best way is to find a good teacher.
> 
> You didn't say why you want to start climbing? Are you expanding your business or it just looks fun?
> 
> ...



One reason was that it seemed like it would be safer to be using a belt and spurs instead of a belt and a 32' ladder top a tree. 

and yes I did want to do more tree work and I know there will be occasions where I won't have enough room to drop the top 2/3's of a tree

and the last and least important is that after cutting down trees as a side job for 20 years I would really like to try climbing.

But to be honest I don't know if I can do it. I'm certain I could 20 years ago but I was able to do a lot of insane things back then that I know I couldn't do now.


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## rarefish383 (Apr 18, 2010)

I'm not trying to be nasty, just realistic. You wouldn't top a tree from the ladder. And you wouldn't top a tree with spurs, unless you are removing it altogether. You can't use spurs on a live tree you're not taking down, you would loose your license if caught. You would throw your line over a limb and use a taught line hitch, as I do, or another climbing device, to work your way up the tree. Once at the top you can rig your climbing line and lowering line and procede to limb it out. My Dad climed into his 70's and one of my cousins climbers is over 60 and show's no sign of slowing down. The big factor age plays is you should be wise enough not to do risky things you would have done 30 years ago, and know what those risky things are. Good luck, Joe.


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## boutselis (Apr 18, 2010)

rarefish383 said:


> I'm not trying to be nasty, just realistic. You wouldn't top a tree from the ladder. And you wouldn't top a tree with spurs, unless you are removing it altogether. You can't use spurs on a live tree you're not taking down, you would loose your license if caught. You would throw your line over a limb and use a taught line hitch, as I do, or another climbing device, to work your way up the tree. Once at the top you can rig your climbing line and lowering line and procede to limb it out. My Dad climed into his 70's and one of my cousins climbers is over 60 and show's no sign of slowing down. The big factor age plays is you should be wise enough not to do risky things you would have done 30 years ago, and know what those risky things are. Good luck, Joe.




If you don't have room to drop the whole tree and need to drop the top section and all you have is a ladder to get you half way up the tree then thats what you end up doing. So maybe YOU wouldn't cut the top of a tree off from a ladder, and thats probably a good idea but if thats all i've got, thats all i've got. 

I'd bet its not the right way but I've done more than a few times. Now I would like to learn how to use spurs and a belt because I feel it would be safer to climb a tree and remove smaller section at a time instead of half a tree.


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## eljefe (Apr 18, 2010)

Hi, I would recommend two books, Jeff Jepson's "the Tree Climber's Companion" and Gerald Beranek's "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work". Both are well written and easy to read. Both are very informative. Must have reading for this business. Both may be had at a number of places that specalize in this business- Wesspur is a good company to try. 
In answer to your questions the aluminum gaffs have steel gaffs, its the J part that is aluminum. No, a linesman's belt is not correct for this work nor are lineman's spikes. And no, I would not buy used equipment. I have been advised that dropping either the spikes or the belt from any distance onto a hard surface, like a concrete driveway, can crack the metal. This may be found by magnafluxing and I was advised to have my equipment, spurs and belt, magnafluxed every year. Spurs as others have said, are only used for removals. Palm trees I don't know anything about, but you being in Florida they (the palm trees) may have a different approach.
Others have written about how this is a dangerous business and perhaps they got your back up a bit. They are only trying to keep you alive and well. 
You mention ladders and then mention them again. Eeek. Topping a tree is like cutting one down on the ground except there is nowhere to run. As the top comes out it pushes against the spar. It pushes hard. This make the spar move away from the direction of fall of the top. Every time you are tied in to a spar and cut the top out you really do a dance up there sometimes the arc of the swing is many feet. If you are on a ladder the top of the ladder will either swing with the spar --or it will not and you and the ladder and the chainsaw will fall. There about a thousand other things that can happen wrong, but I mention only the movement of the spar when the top comes out as it seems to me to be not well understood; laypeople seem to think the spar is going to just stand there and not move an inch when the top comes out. 
I hope this helps you. 
Eljefe


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## boutselis (Apr 18, 2010)

eljefe said:


> Hi, I would recommend two books, Jeff Jepson's "the Tree Climber's Companion" and Gerald Beranek's "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work". Both are well written and easy to read. Both are very informative. Must have reading for this business. Both may be had at a number of places that specalize in this business- Wesspur is a good company to try.
> In answer to your questions the aluminum gaffs have steel gaffs, its the J part that is aluminum. No, a linesman's belt is not correct for this work nor are lineman's spikes. And no, I would not buy used equipment. I have been advised that dropping either the spikes or the belt from any distance onto a hard surface, like a concrete driveway, can crack the metal. This may be found by magnafluxing and I was advised to have my equipment, spurs and belt, magnafluxed every year. Spurs as others have said, are only used for removals. Palm trees I don't know anything about, but you being in Florida they (the palm trees) may have a different approach.
> Others have written about how this is a dangerous business and perhaps they got your back up a bit. They are only trying to keep you alive and well.
> You mention ladders and then mention them again. Eeek. Topping a tree is like cutting one down on the ground except there is nowhere to run. As the top comes out it pushes against the spar. It pushes hard. This make the spar move away from the direction of fall of the top. Every time you are tied in to a spar and cut the top out you really do a dance up there sometimes the arc of the swing is many feet. If you are on a ladder the top of the ladder will either swing with the spar --or it will not and you and the ladder and the chainsaw will fall. There about a thousand other things that can happen wrong, but I mention only the movement of the spar when the top comes out as it seems to me to be not well understood; laypeople seem to think the spar is going to just stand there and not move an inch when the top comes out.
> ...





Thanks for the tips. I had no idea the belts could be damaged that easy. I won't be getting used equipment. AND I didn't know it was called a spar but I know it rocks about sometimes when the upper part of the tree is cut off. Thats the main reason I want to get my spurs.

A couple of weeks ago I was cutting down a cabbage palm and there wasn't room to drop the thing whole. I had to cut the top 7 or 8 feet off and because it was bent away from where I wanted it to fall, and i was by myself, I used a chain and a hand winch to pull the top in the direction I needed it to go. I knew what was going to happen because I had done this before (I knew its not the way it should be dine at all but I developed a method so to speak). 

Lets just say that palms can really rock. 

as to trimming palms many guys start up with a ladder and then get on the palm trunk with spurs to prune it. There is no limit to how much you can gird a palm trunk and the palm will still live and because of the "fuzzy" nature of the trunk you can't see gaff marks from the ground.

Its one of the other reasons I'd like to get spurs and belt. 

thanks for the help. I have a bid in on beranek's book on ebay now.


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## rarefish383 (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm sorry, I can see where I was confusing. If you are just dropping the tree you could spike it. Ladders are not always the tree climbers friend. Most of the climbers I know would rather throw their rope over a limb and pull themselves up than use a ladder. Sorry again, I don't always answer the question that was asked. Good luck, Joe,


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## boutselis (Apr 19, 2010)

rarefish383 said:


> I'm sorry, I can see where I was confusing. If you are just dropping the tree you could spike it. Ladders are not always the tree climbers friend. Most of the climbers I know would rather throw their rope over a limb and pull themselves up than use a ladder. Sorry again, I don't always answer the question that was asked. Good luck, Joe,



I would love to d it that way too; I don't know how is what my problem is. I definitely agree, a flat ladder on a round object is not the best senario. even when its strapped it can twist. I actually saw a branch swing down and knock a ladder out from under a guy, He wasn't to high up luckily. 

If I knew how I would prefer to climb and when i learn I will climb.

no need to be sorry. I thought you were very polite. I 
am learning a little something every time I log on. thanks


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## tree md (Apr 19, 2010)

I would seriously reevaluate your practice of doing removals with a ladder. One of the number one ways to get killed. Read the injuries and fatalities section. I might use a ladder to enter a tree from time to time but the ladder is removed before I ever begin work and I never cut from a ladder, let alone top and remove.

Not to mention that anyone that sees this practice recognizes it as totally unprofessional.

You got some good info on some of the books with the basics but to tell the truth, there are a million ways to get squished in this business. You cannot possibly learn everything from a book. My advise would be to get with someone who knows what they are doing and learn from them before you get seriously hurt or worse.

Not trying to come off as a smart ass or know it all, just trying to give you a little advise that may save your life.


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## boutselis (Apr 19, 2010)

tree md said:


> I would seriously reevaluate your practice of doing removals with a ladder. One of the number one ways to get killed. Read the injuries and fatalities section. I might use a ladder to enter a tree from time to time but the ladder is removed before I ever begin work and I never cut from a ladder, let alone top and remove.
> 
> Not to mention that anyone that sees this practice recognizes it as totally unprofessional.
> 
> ...



In the post where I mentioned using a ladder, did anyone happen to read this statement 

"One reason was that it seemed like it would be safer to be using a belt and spurs instead of a belt and a 32' ladder top a tree. "

That is the entire logic behind the original post. Never in any way did I imply that using a ladder in a tree was a great idea. I can do it but I would rather learn a better way if I am going to be cutting down more trees.

thank you for the advice though. I appreciate it.


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## tree md (Apr 19, 2010)

Hey, everyone has to start somewhere and learn. Not knocking you for that. It's just that if you have never used climbing gear before it behooves you to find someone who can teach you how to use it... As well as proper safety and industry standards. Just buying a set of gaffs and a belt and reading some stuff on the internet or out of a few books is not enough to learn the hazards of the work and proper use of the gear, let alone proper tree care or removal techniques.

And as far as ladders, I have my own personal horror story from using one so I'm not just talking out of my ass about it.


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## boutselis (Apr 19, 2010)

tree md said:


> Hey, everyone has to start somewhere and learn. Not knocking you for that. It's just that if you have never used climbing gear before it behooves you to find someone who can teach you how to use it... As well as proper safety and industry standards. Just buying a set of gaffs and a belt and reading some stuff on the internet or out of a few books is not enough to learn the hazards of the work and proper use of the gear, let alone proper tree care or removal techniques.
> 
> And as far as ladders, I have my own personal horror story from using one so I'm not just talking out of my ass about it.



i can't agree more. some one point me to the class so i can sign up.


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## tree md (Apr 19, 2010)

I personally hired on with an older guy who didn't mind teaching me when I was 21 and worked for a few other tree services along the way. I worked three years for someone else before I started doing side jobs and started contract climbing and doing my own thing after 4 years. You just have to find someone who is willing to teach you. If you want to be any good at it you need to invest some years into it.


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## Bermie (Apr 20, 2010)

You are going to need more than just spikes and a harness...
Yes you need an arborist harness, one you can 'sit' in, not a belt. Flip line for primary attachment, you probably already got that figured.

You also need a lifeline that will go all the way to the ground and a system to come down the spar in a hurry if needed.

You also need knowledge of the physics involved in dismantling a tree while on spikes, someone already mentioned the 'pushback' when a top comes out, how to be attached, how to cut safely with a chainsaw in very close proximity to your chest or stomach, how to produce properly positioned and proportioned felling cuts depending of tree species, wood characteristics, lean, targets below, how to brace for the ride!!!

Lots to do...best get started, stay safe


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