# Barber chair theory.



## pdqdl

Many newbies to our business don't know about "barber chair", which is a dangerous event that generally occurs while felling leaning trees. They have killed many experienced tree cutters, and are hardly predictable. 

There are many threads on this topic, and I don't wish to discuss the many methods available to avoid the problem. What I would like to do in this thread is discuss recognizing the threat prior to starting the chainsaw.

I stumbled across this video, which is the best footage I have ever seen of a full-blown "barber-chair" event (BC for the rest of this post): http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU

From my studies of this kind of event, the general cause of BC is a side force of some sort against the trunk of the tree being felled; either wind load, lean, or perhaps uneven branch load or another tree leaning on it. Most often, we hear of poor technique to resolve the problem, and the fatal results of either getting whacked by the rising split, or the falling tree from unpredictable directions.

Generally, we presume that a heavily leaning tree is prone to BC, but quite frankly, it is a truly rare event in my small portion of this trade, yet it is aparently quite a common concern in other areas. 

I have a theory, which I welcome all your thoughts on:

It is not possible to assess the amount of side force necessary to cause a BC, but it isn't going to happen under most circumstances. I think that some trees just cannot be made to BC, and others will do so _predictably_.

Predictable: significant side load, tree species with easily split logs, and the complete absence of knots, forks, or other _interlocking wood fiber that would prevent a longitudinal split of any length._ 

Notice in the video that there is a rather long trunk section that splits down almost the entire length. Also notice that there are no branches or stubs from branches that were present along the lower part of the tree. Fundamentally, this was a tall pole of parallel grained wood that was not cross linked by any branches for most of the life of this tree. It had obviously been growing in a dense forest that only allowed branching in the upper canopy. Lower branches were sacrificed for rapid attainment of height.

My own single experience occurred when I top cut a 3" diameter maple branch. It was extending about 20' horizontally, and I had no concerns for the landing point, peeling the limb, or wasting time notching and hinging. It split, sending a 6' long split flying upward, which came slapping back down with considerable violence only a moment later. Faster, in fact, than I could interrupt the cut. 

This branch had everything previously discussed: long, thin structure relative to it's load, an easily split wood (sugar maple), poor technique that amplified the risk, and this particular branch had NO nodes or cross branching for the 6 feet that it split. 

So while I recognize that barber chair is always possible, I think that rather than looking at just the side lean of any given tree, we should put more consideration into how much evidence there is of split-resistant features, and how easily that particular tree specie is to split.


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## beowulf343

pdqdl said:


> From my studies of this kind of event, the general cause of BC is a side force of some sort against the trunk of the tree being felled; either wind load, lean, or perhaps uneven branch load or another tree leaning on it. Most often, we hear of poor technique to resolve the problem, and the fatal results of either getting whacked by the rising split, or the falling tree from unpredictable directions.
> 
> Generally, we presume that a heavily leaning tree is prone to BC, but quite frankly, it is a truly rare event in my small portion of this trade, yet it is aparently quite a common concern in other areas.
> 
> I have a theory, which I welcome all your thoughts on:
> 
> It is not possible to assess the amount of side force necessary to cause a BC, but it isn't going to happen under most circumstances. I think that some trees just cannot be made to BC, and others will do so



For my part of the country, you are leaving out a rather large circumstance that will cause barber chairs-ice. The worst example i've ever seen was canada in 98. You'd barely start the back cut and you'd be barber chairing. And that was pretty much every species.
It is a concern with several species around here every winter, even a little bit of lean that wouldn't cause a barber chair, you put a ton of snow or ice thirty feet up and it puts a lot of force into the little bit of lean.

While your theory is interesting, i've seen too many species barber chair over the years that if i'm even a little bit unsure, instead of believing that a certain species cannot be made to barber chair, i just take a minute and set a chain.


If i may ask, what is your ranking on splitability of trees?


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## komatsuvarna

I guess they happen when least expected. That tree didnt look to have that bad of a lean, but guess it was enough.


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## derwoodii

pdqdl said:


> Notice in the video that there is a rather long trunk section that splits down almost the entire length. Also notice that there are no branches or stubs from branches that were present along the lower part of the tree. Fundamentally, this was a tall pole of parallel grained wood that was not cross linked by any branches for most of the life of this tree. It had obviously been growing in a dense forest that only allowed branching in the upper canopy. Lower branches were sacrificed for rapid attainment of height.
> QUOTE]





pdqdl said:


> Agree your hints worthy to consider looking for. May I add timber with little or poor taper in the trunk. Perhaps a characteristic of faster growing trees in areas of poor light. This may give rise to elongated and weaker wood fiber. Add your observations to the mix and bang.
> Down here we call em slab outs, may I ask "Barber chair" what is the origin of this metaphor.


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## the Aerialist

komatsuvarna said:


> I guess they happen when least expected. That tree didnt look to have that bad of a lean, but guess it was enough.



That tree went straight up, the "lean" in that case was caused by a possibly too aggressive felling notch sending it that direction. The other cause was the plunge cutting method which left a small section of the tree on the back side, this small section tore away from the main trunk when the tree started to fall after I pulled the saw out. I never got the chance to sever the last piece of wood holding the tree up and it split away.


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## FSburt

My response to that video is that is shows what happens when don't keep cutting on the backcut once started. I feel from looking at the tree if he would have not stopped in the backcut like he did the movement would not have abruptly stopped and whipped the upper portion and caused the barber chair. Regardless that has been the best example on video I have seen in my 22 yrs of cutting. I use that shot in my saw classes to show what happens when you don't saw fast enough to keep up with the fall of the tree. Especially very tall skinny trees that have alot of leverage being exerted on them by the top once the tree starts to fall.


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## Scrat

beowulf343 said:


> For my part of the country, you are leaving out a rather large circumstance that will cause barber chairs-ice. The worst example i've ever seen was canada in 98. You'd barely start the back cut and you'd be barber chairing. And that was pretty much every species.
> It is a concern with several species around here every winter, even a little bit of lean that wouldn't cause a barber chair, you put a ton of snow or ice thirty feet up and it puts a lot of force into the little bit of lean.
> 
> While your theory is interesting, i've seen too many species barber chair over the years that if i'm even a little bit unsure, instead of believing that a certain species cannot be made to barber chair, i just take a minute and set a chain.
> 
> 
> If i may ask, what is your ranking on splitability of trees?



When you talk of ice and snow are you also considering frozen wood? And at what temperature do you consider a safety issue for cutting?


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## pdqdl

beowulf343 said:


> For my part of the country, you are leaving out a rather large circumstance that will cause barber chairs-ice. The worst example i've ever seen was canada in 98. You'd barely start the back cut and you'd be barber chairing. And that was pretty much every species.
> It is a concern with several species around here every winter, even a little bit of lean that wouldn't cause a barber chair, you put a ton of snow or ice thirty feet up and it puts a lot of force into the little bit of lean.
> 
> While your theory is interesting, i've seen too many species barber chair over the years that if i'm even a little bit unsure, instead of believing that a certain species cannot be made to barber chair, i just take a minute and set a chain.
> 
> 
> If i may ask, what is your ranking on splitability of trees?



Yep, I didn't mention ice; I left the door open for any kind of uneven load on the trunk, though.

Splitability of trees? 

Low? Pretty much the same set of trees that say no to me when I whack them with a splitting axe. Elm, locust, most oaks. Pretty much anything with a branch or fork in it.

Easy splitting? sugar maples, pine trees where they are not knotted up.


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## beowulf343

pdqdl said:


> I think that some trees just cannot be made to BC



See, what worries me about your theory is this one little statement. I'm of the opinion that with the right set of circumstances, any tree is capable of a barber chair. Sure, some of these circumstances may need to be extreme, tornado force winds, ten inches of ice, etc. However, saying that a certain species of tree cannot be made to barber chair is not a good assumption imo. You know this business, when you start taking something for granted, that's when crap happens to prove you wrong. The feeling i'm getting from you is if you were to walk out to an oak with a heavy lean, heavy wind, 2 inches of ice, you wouldn't take a barber chair precaution. I've had oak barber chair on me (there was 25 inches of snow sitting on leaves), but it did happen. The very first barber chair i ever saw was my old man on a locust when i was a kid. It's not impossible, but you are right that it is more improbable than on something like ash.



Scrat said:


> When you talk of ice and snow are you also considering frozen wood? And at what temperature do you consider a safety issue for cutting?



Not really, and i have yet to work in a temp low enough to make cutting a safety issue. Cut in -20 many times and have cut in as low as -30 a couple times in canada with no noticeable difference to me on the likelihood of a barber chair. Climbing frozen wood and limb strength is another story in those temps.


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## pdqdl

You have pretty good points. I find that we agree on most things, and this doesn't seem far from that.

Most of the trees that I see are urban shade trees. Nothing tall and straight from the forest, although we get an occasional 20'-30' log without a fork. Not very often, though.

I'd bet you couldn't barber chair a hedge tree with a crane pulling on it. Probably true for mulberry too.


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## beav700

Forget all the plunge cuts and other remedies. You are still taking the risk on tree with steep lean. Just grab some 5/8 or 3/4 rope and wrap it around the tree really tight few times just above your cut. Problem solved.


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## NCTREE

beav700 said:


> Forget all the plunge cuts and other remedies. You are still taking the risk on tree with steep lean. Just grab some 5/8 or 3/4 rope and wrap it around the tree really tight few times just above your cut. Problem solved.



I've used heavy duty ratchet straps before, you can get them much more tighter than a rope.

I think stress cracks in the trunk are big factors towards whether a tree could barber chair. You can't see them most of time. Pines are notorious for this.


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## Jed1124

I like the tip for chaining,roping,or ratchet strapping above the cut. Definitely be using that on the next leaner I cut. Thanxs guys.


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## r&r

derwoodii said:


> pdqdl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in the video that there is a rather long trunk section that splits down almost the entire length. Also notice that there are no branches or stubs from branches that were present along the lower part of the tree. Fundamentally, this was a tall pole of parallel grained wood that was not cross linked by any branches for most of the life of this tree. It had obviously been growing in a dense forest that only allowed branching in the upper canopy. Lower branches were sacrificed for rapid attainment of height.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pdqdl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree your hints worthy to consider looking for. May I add timber with little or poor taper in the trunk. Perhaps a characteristic of faster growing trees in areas of poor light. This may give rise to elongated and weaker wood fiber. Add your observations to the mix and bang.
> Down here we call em slab outs, may I ask "Barber chair" what is the origin of this metaphor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ive heard them called barber chairs because they say they will take your head off if it hits you. Or it could just be because the stump resembles a chair when it occurs.
Click to expand...


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## bruce6670

Aerial Arborist said:


> That tree went straight up, the "lean" in that case was caused by a possibly too aggressive felling notch sending it that direction. The other cause was the plunge cutting method which left a small section of the tree on the back side, this small section tore away from the main trunk when the tree started to fall after I pulled the saw out. I never got the chance to sever the last piece of wood holding the tree up and it split away.



That tree may not have gone the way you intended it to, but at least you got a great video out of it. Many people will learn from this. Thanks for sharing.


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## silverzuk

Not cutting a good notch will cause them.
That is what about tore my head off.
I was cutting a small white oak. So small I didn't think it really needed a notch (being young, stupid, and in a hurry).
It started to go, but hung in another tree.

Now I had a leaning tree that was a cocked canon.
I stood off to the side (expecting any kick to go away from the trunk of the tree).
I stuck the tip of the saw into the heart, and saw a big flash of white light.

My first mistake was not notching. That was the biggest mistake.
The second was sticking my head in the barrel of a cocked canon.
That was as dumb as sticking your finger into a light socket.

I've had others split off the stump, it was usually because of poor notching.


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## the Aerialist

*Actually the tree went exactly where I wanted it to ...*



bruce6670 said:


> That tree may not have gone the way you intended it to, but at least you got a great video out of it. Many people will learn from this. Thanks for sharing.



I was trying to drop the tree in a very narrow LZ right between other much smaller trees without damaging them. Look closely at the video and you can see how it went right between them.

And as I said earlier in this thread. It was my over aggressive felling notch that caused the lean that caused the "BC" on the thin slab that stayed there, It was about an inch of wood and another of Cambium layer is all, hardly and example of a serious BC. Notice how quick I lopped it off. You guys are sharp, I thought I'd get away with that one.


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## pdqdl

AA, that sure looked like a normal notch (1/3rd or less) to me, and you must have been hiding when you did the bore cut, 'cause it sure looks like a normal notch 'n drop to me.

I played it slow and careful quite a few times, and I don't see the same things you are describing. Must be in the camera angle...


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## the Aerialist

*It was a normal drop, until ...*



pdqdl said:


> AA, that sure looked like a normal notch (1/3rd or less) to me, and you must have been hiding when you did the bore cut, 'cause it sure looks like a normal notch 'n drop to me.
> 
> I played it slow and careful quite a few times, and I don't see the same things you are describing. Must be in the camera angle...



It was a completely normal drop ~ until that slab split off into a mini barber chair. The tree hinged well an fell right where I wanted it. As I remember that day I might have gone over a third a wee bit to get it to start, as I did not bring my wedges. This was another reason I plunge cut it leaving that slab in the back, I didn't expect it to fracture like that though.

I that particular instance it would have even been OK if it toppled over backwards, as long as it didn't get me or my groundsman. Would have most likely damaged some smaller trees though if it did that.


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## newsawtooth

Plunge cuts are standard procedure for heavy leaners that could possibly barber chair. All the fibers behind the face cut are under tension, release them by cutting towards the wood that is under the most stress. Releasing the tension wood first with a traditional back cut results in barber chairing. Take this question to the logging forum and we can all learn. Looks more like British Columbia than PA.

Aerial, you still climbing with ice axes?


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## Blakesmaster

pdqdl said:


> AA, that sure looked like a normal notch (1/3rd or less) to me, and you must have been hiding when you did the bore cut, 'cause it sure looks like a normal notch 'n drop to me.
> 
> I played it slow and careful quite a few times, and I don't see the same things you are describing. Must be in the camera angle...



It's because AA is talking about this video 
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/u/14/WWMOM3tEkvs
which isn't what I would call a barber chair. Just poor felling.

You're talking about this video
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU
which is isn't AA but some other dude and it's been posted and debated I believe in the logging forum before.


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## Shawn Howard

> Down here we call em slab outs, may I ask "Barber chair" what is the origin of this metaphor.





derwoodii said:


> Ive heard them called barber chairs because they say they will take your head off if it hits you. Or it could just be because the stump resembles a chair when it occurs.



I thought it was because the tree splits and falls 
the same way you lean back on a barber chair - 

- your butt swings out and the pivot point ends up 
midway up your back...


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## the Aerialist

newsawtooth said:


> Aerial, you still climbing with ice axes?



Only in Winter when the trees are frozen.. lol


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## the Aerialist

*Now I see the confusion ...*



Blakesmaster said:


> It's because AA is talking about this video
> http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/u/14/WWMOM3tEkvs
> which isn't what I would call a barber chair. Just poor felling.
> 
> You're talking about this video
> http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU
> which is isn't AA but some other dude and it's been posted and debated I believe in the logging forum before.



So right, that video is from my channel, but is not me. I had forgotten all about it until you linked it. I added it to my channel because I thought it was the best example of a barberchair I had ever seen video of so I added it.

I wondered about all the hoopla from that minor tiny slab I cut off with a quick swipe.


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## pdqdl

Blakesmaster said:


> It's because AA is talking about this video



Well...I don't see how anybody could make a mistake. All that is required is to click on the link I posted. And he does have it on his YouTube "Channel".


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## Nailsbeats

Having a barber chair event is much more likely in frozen trees no question. Any firewood guy will tell you that frozen green wood is the best splitting, same thing falling frozen timber, it's a frozen green piece of wood. Bored backcuts, and face boring is standard around here partially for that reason.

Not only is it the headlean, load (ice/snow/other trees and limbs), wind, limbweight, falling timber perpendicular to a vertical seem, that can cause barber chair but regardless of all these factors, TEMPERATURE alone is a major factor!

When you step into the woods and it's below zero, you best make a mental note of it.


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## the Aerialist

*They are all frozen around here ...*



Nailsbeats said:


> ... Any firewood guy will tell you that frozen green wood is the best splitting, same thing falling frozen timber, it's a frozen green piece of wood. Bored backcuts, and face boring is standard around here partially for that reason...



We've had a week straight of sub-zero (C) days here with the night time temps falling into the low 20s (F).

The trees are hard as rock, gaffing is harder than heck, time to get my ice axes out again!


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## smokechase II

*Cause*

*"What I would like to do in this thread is discuss recognizing the threat prior to starting the chainsaw."*

I can't do that.
Has to include all factors to be accurate.

- - - - - - - - -

* Green tree with heavy lean. This is the most common denominator.
* Wind on tree top accomplishing the same effect as a heavy lean. Think of wind coming up and surprising the cutter.
* Another tree or trees leaning into tree in question accomplishing the same as a heavy lean.
* Overly aggressive wedging combined with inadequate face and back-cuts. Although this force is applied low it is essentially the same as a heavy lean.
* Some species have a greater tendency to split vertically. Split rail fences in much of the west were made from Larch (aka Tamarack). Think of Larch as 'prone' to chairing.
* Too deep a face when combined with much of the above.
* Back cut too slow - that would be the video. Old school loggers taught that if you started hearing popping you need to bear down and get 'er done. If you stopped cutting you could allow the tree to chair.
* Back cut not bored. This is probably the single best way to reduce barber chairing. It will not eliminate them.
* Face cut too short, not high enough.
* Apex of the Face cut (its back) parallel to a vertical split in the tree. Tree would need to be fell at a right angle (ideally) to the split to reduce or eliminate this risk.
* Hidden flaw (unseen split or rot) in the tree.
* Hitting an obstacle relatively close to the stump where the top keeps going but too much strong holding wood was left. Tree stays attached at the stump but leverage up higher facilitates the split.
* Too much holding wood. Mentioned in a variety of ways above but just making it clear here.


If I got old the PC I had more but I hate other than MAC psuedo-computers.


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## the Aerialist

*PCs drool Macs Rule !!!*



smokechase II said:


> ... I can't do that... Has to include all factors to be accurate...
> 
> If I got old the PC I had more but I hate other than MAC psuedo-computers.



Oh feces! I just cut out all of your excellent comment so I could pick a fight with you about computers ... And then I find out we actually agree, darn it. (_at least I think we do, I can't quite parse that last comment_).

Anybody want to fight about what luzers PC users are?


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## smokechase II

*Must have been a virus in that code*

My last sentence will have to stand on its own.

In other words, opps.

Go Mac and you won't go back.

won't won't won't.


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## the Aerialist

smokechase II said:


> ... Go Mac and you won't go back...



Well I've had a Macintosh since around 1986. My "Fat Mac" still boots up and runs. I have an Apple Cube (circa 2000) on my desk. It's sort of a very large iPod as it serves up my music collection for my office. I have a Mac Mini in the living room which does the same thing, but also offers video and all the things a modern Mac can do. A Sony Bravia is it's monitor.

When I got into adding video to my web site I got a maxed out iMac to do the editing. Awesome machine. Here's shot of my office desk:


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## smokechase II

*got*

We've got a couple IMAC's and our daughter just got a new fully equipped laptop. Nice to have teacher/student discounts.

One son is fixing an older laptop (about 6 years old-screen connection issues) for us.

The no security software needed and yet no virus problems are nice.

We did have a problem with the new iLife update, the disc was scratched so we had to wait for a replacement.

We stepped out and got a Lexmark printer and I'm amazed what you get for $190 yet the black ink is only $5/cartridge. It's nice to have the two sided feature. We can print from a variety of things other than computers on that printer/no cables.

=========

In a back room, jammed in a corner, is the PC where we can go for some old files and photos. Its near where we are going to put a cat box.

Back to the Barber Chair angle.

I go back to the old PC and dig out some more barber chair concerns.
I had some powerpoint slides started too.


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## pdqdl

Smoke: the reason I started the thread was not to discuss all the potential ways to have (or avoid) the BC event. As you have pointed out, there are a lot of factors.

I had the simple goal of addressing _just the tree itself_, not all of the many outside factors. So far, I think the conversation has been rather constructive, particularly the comment about "narrow taper" by R&R.


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## the Aerialist

*PCs Suck Macs Rule ...*



smokechase I... Nice to have teacher/student discounts. One son is fixing an older laptop (about 6 years old-screen connection issues) for us...[/QUOTE said:


> The Powerbook G4 shown on the left in my photo has the same problem but intermittent so it's very hard to nail down. Still 6 years for a laptop is pretty good.


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## tree MDS

Aerial Arborist said:


> Well I've had a Macintosh since around 1986. My "Fat Mac" still boots up and runs. I have an Apple Cube (circa 2000) on my desk. It's sort of a very large iPod as it serves up my music collection for my office. I have a Mac Mini in the living room which does the same thing, but also offers video and all the things a modern Mac can do. A Sony Bravia is it's monitor.
> 
> When I got into adding video to my web site I got a maxed out iMac to do the editing. Awesome machine. Here's shot of my office desk:



#### addict.


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## smokechase II

*taper*

pdgdl:

The comment on knots holding the wood in place may have some merit.

However, to get strength within the trunk area that could accomplish that the tree would have to be in a non-stand setting. Which is less common.

Trees loose their lower limbs as they are shaded out leaving minimal knots within.

In some species the limb/knot is actually a common point of entry for rot.

============

One of the ways to reduce barber chair risk is to chain/cable around the trunk prior to cutting. Strong knots through the bole could help in that direction but they certainly couldn't hold with the strength of steel. Except higher up in a tree where you couldn't put wraps.
An interesting side story is how many climbers died from trees splitting as they were being topped. The most common way for those guys to die was to axe through their rope. Cable cored ropes fixed that. The second most common way was to be crushed as the tree split. Just to show that limbs are not a guaranteed way to prevent a tree from splitting look at those topping videos from yesteryear. Plenty of limbs up where they topped 'em.

= = = = = = == = = =

In the video, how many trees do you see that have substantial limbs near the ground?

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

My point would still be proper cutting technique should be used on a continuous basis. It's not just that the wind could come up, or unfamiliarity with new species but also understanding that there can be hidden defects within the tree that no one could see.

A poster here told a story about working in Alaska. A co-worker had just climbed a Spruce to set it up as a spar. It only had a small amount of rigging in it and hay wire hanging down. The climber had just gotten down when the tree Barber Chaired. No Cuts. Just a little stress revealed a hidden defect.

Good habits are hard to break.

-----------------------

Don't think of cutting technique as a way of preventing a barber chair.

Also think of it as a way to cause a chair.

For instance, an overly deep face cut.
This could cause the tree to go early.
Before the back-cut is completed or even started.

Of course, a tree with a natural face - (from fire, a scar or rot), could be ready to split on its own or with even just the start of a cut.


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## smokechase II

*video*

With regard to the video:

The tree clearly has enough lean to be treated as a risk.
Not because of a lack of lower limbs but because of the weight of the lean applying force.

The face cut looks adequate.
The open face guys often go into a spiel at this point about how the face should have been higher.
This barber chair wasn't from the face closing early.
Not an issue here.

The guy stopped cutting when he heard it pop and crack.
That is one error.

But the larger error would be not boring the back-cut.

In some cases or superior hardwoods having a sharp saw isn't good enough. 
There is a triangle cut technique that can help but boring is just so easy.

==============

Another point that could be put out for the good of the order would be pointing out that I haven't ever had a barber chair. This isn't because of excellence as a cutter but mostly i just drop dead trees and follow what I was taught.

Dead trees don't have mush weight. 
They do have plenty of splits so don't drop at an angle that encourages the split, of course.

Weight up high or force imitating that up high is the main cause.

+++++++++++

Howdy Burt
Its Bill again.


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## the Aerialist

*You obviously know your stuff ...*



smokechase II said:


> With regard to the video:... Weight up high or force imitating that up high is the main cause....



http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist#p/a/f/2/2YAf61zz5VU

The video from my YouTube "Channel" was an obvious Barber Chair and a dangerous one. The video of me from my channel was also technically a barber chair but a tiny and not dangerous one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWMOM3tEkvs

What are your comments and observations about my mini barber Chair?


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## newsawtooth

Aerial Arborist said:


> What are your comments and observations about my mini barber Chair?



After watching your video, I offer to the group that we did not see a barber chair, rather a cut that mitigated a potential barber chair. The strap of wood that tore out at the end is normal and desired for boring backcuts. The stored energy in that small strap of wood is exponentially less than the potential energy that could have been released had the tree actually barber chaired. Perhaps you weren't expecting the result, but you mostly demonstrated the cut and outcome for mitigating a potential barber chair.


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## the Aerialist

*So I did no wrong ? ...*



newsawtooth said:


> ... we did not see a barber chair, rather a cut that mitigated a potential barber chair... Perhaps you weren't expecting the result, but you mostly demonstrated the cut and outcome for mitigating a potential barber chair.



That's the first time it happened that way, but I don't use that technique all that often. The ground around it was at about a 45 degree angle so judging lean was difficult, I could hardly stand up there myself.


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## Shawn Howard

I'm new here - I work for a park reserve district in the forestry division.

I've been cutting for many years but only learning proper safety and 
"best practice" techniques since starting this job 4 years ago.

We've recently been instructed to use the "plunge cut" method whenever possible.

The way I've been doing it is to do the back cut 2" (more or less, depending 
on the size of the tree and the perceived amount of force etc) below the
plunge cut and to keep the bar perpendicular to the intended fall line - 
parallel to the hinge - in order to evenly release the "holding wood" from 
side to side.

Could that have prevented the splitting of the strap wood in your video?


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## pdqdl

Almost certainly. You might notice that he stood away from the plunge cut and nicked the corners of the remaining strap. Had he just kept cutting away from the hinge, it probably would have held to the end.


Either way, it was not a barber-chair. The trunk did not split toward the crown of the tree, and it didn't threaten the feller either with a horizontally slapping trunk nor with high-split wood falling back down on him.

Safe felling job.


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## smokechase II

*Barber*

AA:

It looks to me that the tree did split but that it wasn't a barber chair.

There appears to be a twisting split at about 4:25 in the video that comes down from the upper left. This split does not remain on the stump but is taken off with the fall.
You can see it by its light color.

A barber chair is a split where the fulcrum is moved up the tree.

In this case it was the back strap sponsoring the split, as it looks like the tree was pulling away from the strap, but it did not change the hinge. Another way of thinking of this is that it didn't create a method for the tree butt to either be suspended in the air or slam down on the faller. So it doesn't appear to be anywhere as dangerous as a 'chair but I don't like it. That doesn't mean I could have done better, just that it could have unintended consequences that I'm not familiar with.

I can't say but there may have been a way to prevent or further reduce this splitting from occurring. Perhaps to continue cutting the back strap till it popped cleanly? Then again, getting away from the stump and not getting the bar grabbed by the tree have merit.

It looked like leaving the strap at that corner was appropriate with what we saw of at least one lean on the tree, I would have suggested making all of the back cuts, both plunge (bore) and strap cuts from the side opposite the lean. (By using the sights while completing the face cut then matching that with the plunge/bore cut one does not need to even walk around the tree to check the off-side holding wood.) Avoiding cutting under the lean is desirable not just from bar pinching but from limbs and tops falling on the cutter. There is a tendency in the plunge cutting world to almost brag about using shorter bars. A longer bar means not just distance from danger - while bucking for instance - but also not placing yourself in danger.
*Long Bar = safety.*

One error that I would ask you to consider is that you didn't look up even once while making any of the back cuts. Your vertical awareness moments were only after completing the strap cut. Your plunge cuts were made at an uncomfortable height that required more concentration. That sort of multiplied the distraction and that height, closer to your eye level, can cause even more distraction with saw chips/dust being blown into your face.

In any case I would suggest the plunge cutting was highly desirable on this tree.

Just a thought for the reader, if any complication in a tree/snag being dropped takes away from your vertical situational awareness to the point you are oblivious of what is happening above while cutting, that might be a good tree to step away from.


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## smokechase II

*strap wood*

Shawn:

I think what you have been taught about completing the release a couple inches below the plunge (bore) cut is correct.

The reason for that location is to reduce risk of the bar being grabbed by the tree going over. That is highest when just 'cutting out the back'. Be aware that grabbing can still occur with the technique you've been taught because the strap could pull a slab all the way down if there is a 'root pull' possibility. Best to avoid placing your strap above an individual root flare.

I believe a common denominator in both videos is the cutters stopped, the trees were under stress, then splits happened.


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## the Aerialist

*Merry Christmas to All, and to All a Good Year ...*

Many thanks to all who contributed and commented on my video. To Smoke, and Sawtooth: I never did consider that a "barber chair" either, but confusion on my part as to which video was being commented on (i.e. the real barber chair video taken from my YouTube "channel"), led me to think everyone was commenting on my technique.

And Smoke, your comments about my lack of "vertical awareness" was the best advice for anybody felling any tree. Guilty as charged.

To Shawn, thanks for contributing your experience and the great tip of cutting 2" below the plunge/bore cut. Great advice, and thats how I will handle that situation in the future.

@ pdqdl: What was I thinking? Very observant to notice me nicking the sides of what turned out to be the small slab left standing. There was absolutely no reason to do this, I was just trying to "pretty it up", ultimately, those little nicks are what caused the slab to remain.

One other observation about the video is that the lean of the tree was greatly "enhanced" by the angle that Rich, my ground man was shooting from. What was not so apparent from the video was the extreme angle of the terrain we were on. It was hard to stand there at all, much less gain good footing for handling a saw. This is why I used my flip line to secure myself. This poor footing and the lack of ability to step back was why I was doing it that way, not any severe lean. The tree was only leaning slightly uphill. Bore/Plunge cutting was to keep the tree standing until I could unsnap more than any other reason.


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## smokechase II

*Guilty myself*

Good habits are hard to break.

There are a set of safe trees that I don't look up much on.

Really safe.

That's not right, is it?

Time for another resolution.


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## the Aerialist

*there are no REALLY SAFE trees ...*



smokechase II said:


> Good habits are hard to break.
> 
> There are a set of safe trees that I don't look up much on.



Actually Smoke, that's what I considered that Oak, in the prime of life, good looking canopy (although way up there), and nothing dead _in sight_, what could possibly go wrong?


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## derwoodii

pdqdl said:


> I think the conversation has been rather constructive, particularly the comment about "narrow taper" by R&R.




Hey I wus robbed Pdqdl, the taper observation was mine, all kool no biggie happy to help. I still not got a clear explanation of the Barber Chair metaphor how the names meaning is derived 

Down here we call em slab outs, may I ask "Barber chair" what is the origin of this metaphor. 

Best so far 

Ive heard them called barber chairs because they say they will take your head off if it hits you. Or it could just be because the stump resembles a chair when it occurs


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## Nailsbeats

smokechase II said:


> AA:
> 
> It looks to me that the tree did split but that it wasn't a barber chair.
> 
> There appears to be a twisting split at about 4:25 in the video that comes down from the upper left. This split does not remain on the stump but is taken off with the fall.
> You can see it by its light color.
> 
> A barber chair is a split where the fulcrum is moved up the tree.
> 
> In this case it was the back strap sponsoring the split, as it looks like the tree was pulling away from the strap, but it did not change the hinge. Another way of thinking of this is that it didn't create a method for the tree butt to either be suspended in the air or slam down on the faller. So it doesn't appear to be anywhere as dangerous as a 'chair but I don't like it. That doesn't mean I could have done better, just that it could have unintended consequences that I'm not familiar with.
> 
> I can't say but there may have been a way to prevent or further reduce this splitting from occurring. Perhaps to continue cutting the back strap till it popped cleanly? Then again, getting away from the stump and not getting the bar grabbed by the tree have merit.
> 
> It looked like leaving the strap at that corner was appropriate with what we saw of at least one lean on the tree, I would have suggested making all of the back cuts, both plunge (bore) and strap cuts from the side opposite the lean. (By using the sights while completing the face cut then matching that with the plunge/bore cut one does not need to even walk around the tree to check the off-side holding wood.) Avoiding cutting under the lean is desirable not just from bar pinching but from limbs and tops falling on the cutter. There is a tendency in the plunge cutting world to almost brag about using shorter bars. A longer bar means not just distance from danger - while bucking for instance - but also not placing yourself in danger.
> *Long Bar = safety.*
> 
> One error that I would ask you to consider is that you didn't look up even once while making any of the back cuts. Your vertical awareness moments were only after completing the strap cut. Your plunge cuts were made at an uncomfortable height that required more concentration. That sort of multiplied the distraction and that height, closer to your eye level, can cause even more distraction with saw chips/dust being blown into your face.
> 
> In any case I would suggest the plunge cutting was highly desirable on this tree.
> 
> Just a thought for the reader, if any complication in a tree/snag being dropped takes away from your vertical situational awareness to the point you are oblivious of what is happening above while cutting, that might be a good tree to step away from.




All good stuff Smoke. Very good.


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## Nailsbeats

smokechase II said:


> Shawn:
> 
> I think what you have been taught about completing the release a couple inches below the plunge (bore) cut is correct.
> 
> The reason for that location is to reduce risk of the bar being grabbed by the tree going over. That is highest when just 'cutting out the back'. Be aware that grabbing can still occur with the technique you've been taught because the strap could pull a slab all the way down if there is a 'root pull' possibility. Best to avoid placing your strap above an individual root flare.
> 
> I believe a common denominator in both videos is the cutters stopped, the trees were under stress, then splits happened.



Grabbing can occur if you finnish your back cut straight out the back too. I've seen guys angle down from the back to trip a bore strap too, creating a back rest. Always try to leave the stump with your saw in hand and not in the the butt log.

Personally, I think the best way to trip a loaded bore strap is from underneath with a 45 degree or so angle up. Try to grab that Tree, lol.


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## pdqdl

derwoodii said:


> Hey I wus robbed Pdqdl, the taper observation was mine, ...



You're right, of course. I was remembering that it was you that posted that comment, but I wanted to be sure, so I searched for "taper" in the thread. R&R popped up, and I was...delinquent in checking my facts.

It's all fixed now.


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## smokechase II

*question*

*"Personally, I think the best way to trip a loaded bore strap is from underneath with a 45 degree or so angle up. Try to grab that Tree, lol."*

This seems like a good idea to me.

I have done it some but don't have the experience to say.

Anyone here have a story or an instructor that taught doing the angle up from below?

Thanks


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## tree MDS

Sounds like brains and experience play out here.. 

...hmm


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## the Aerialist

*i'm just going to listin to this one ...*

... until someone can make a clear case of "why?" on this one. wut was that again?


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## jefflovstrom

tree MDS said:


> Sounds like brains and experience play out here..
> 
> ...hmm



Hmmm, I wonder if a Humboldt changes things?
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans

The reason it is called a "Barber Chair" is the action of the split. It resembles the action of an actual barber chair, the way they fold out and up, as I have been told anyways.


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## derwoodii

sgreanbeans said:


> The reason it is called a "Barber Chair" is the action of the split. It resembles the action of an actual barber chair, the way they fold out and up, as I have been told anyways.



Ok ta beans make sense, now I gotta figure why we down here call em slab outs.


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## nikole.957

r&r said:


> derwoodii said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ive heard them called barber chairs because they say they will take your head off if it hits you. Or it could just be because the stump resembles a chair when it occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That tree may not have gone the way you intended it to, but at least you got a great video out of it. Many people will learn from this. Thanks for sharing.
Click to expand...


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## smokechase II

*Can do*

*"Hmmm, I wonder if a Humboldt changes things?
Jeff "*

You can do a humboldt with a plunge back-cut.
I think a humboldt _undercut_ would make things better.

I'd suggest that those 70 + degree open faces are pretty silly but use of a variety of different boring back-cuts with a reasonably open humboldt is the cats meow.

When you think about it, falling a heavy leaner with the lean, a humboldt means less cutting. Any attempt at a face where a cut comes in from the top means a lot more cutting.
Caution, Your mileage may vary with root flare.

= = = = = = = = = = =

I'm goona make an enemy of everyone here but a general rule of humboldt, at least 35 degrees open with a plunge back-cut on a barber chair prone tree is the best option. 
Again, General rule.
DYODD on size up.


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## jefflovstrom

Not an enemy here. The humboldt is what I was first shown and it became the standard notch for me for many years. When you are climbing and dropping a stem or limb, the humboldt is just natural to me and I feel like I have more control. To each his own though. Just saying.
Jeff


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## TreeClimber57

sgreanbeans said:


> The reason it is called a "Barber Chair" is the action of the split. It resembles the action of an actual barber chair, the way they fold out and up, as I have been told anyways.


 
Never heard that before, but now you mention it .. it kinda makes sense.


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## David (saltas)

*Please add Brachychiton rupestris to your list*



pdqdl said:


> I'd bet you couldn't barber chair a hedge tree with a crane pulling on it. Probably true for mulberry too.



Please add Brachychiton rupestris to your list 

image Brachychiton rupestris


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## jefflovstrom

saltas said:


> Please add Brachychiton rupestris to your list
> 
> image Brachychiton rupestris


 
I am not clicking the linc, this is SPAM!!!!!!
Jeff


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## husabud

jefflovstrom said:


> I am not clicking the linc, this is SPAM!!!!!!
> Jeff


 
Nope. A bottle tree. Darn aussies


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## jefflovstrom

Duh, I know.
Jeff


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## pdqdl

smokechase II said:


> *"Hmmm, I wonder if a Humboldt changes things?
> Jeff "*
> 
> You can do a humboldt with a plunge back-cut.
> I think a humboldt _undercut_ would make things better.
> 
> ...


 
The width and angle/elevation of the face cut has little or no effect on how the tree falls, at least until the gap closes. A humbolt is nothing more than a regular face cut pointing downward. It has a big affect on saving timber (it's primary purpose), but it also predisposes the falling tree to jump forward off the stump when it closes the gap and breaks the hinge.

Until the gap closes, the only elements to the face cut that influence whether you get a barber chair are the depth of cut and the direction it is pointed relative to the lean (or other side-force).


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## David (saltas)

*sorry*

I did not mean to appear to be spamming

this was in answer to another thread were a poster (pdlqsaid there were only two types of tree that would not baber chair " a shrub with a crane pulling on it and ...."

my intent was a humours reply to that remark.

I have never cut a bottle tree but I would treat it like a I do a palm tree and do a bore cut and then the two wings


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## TreeClimber57

jefflovstrom said:


> I am not clicking the linc, this is SPAM!!!!!!
> Jeff


 
Thought so too.. but apparently not


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## pdqdl

saltas said:


> ...
> this was in answer to another thread were a poster (pdlqsaid there were only two types of tree that would not baber chair " a shrub with a crane pulling on it and ...."
> 
> my intent was a humours reply to that remark.
> 
> I have never cut a bottle tree but I would treat it like a I do a palm tree and do a bore cut and then the two wings


 
No I didn't! I only provided two examples of trees that were probably BC-proof. There are probably lots of trees even more resistant to BC than the two I submitted. Most of them are thorny, too.

That bottle-tree looks like an excellent candidate, although I have never seen one before. That's a real interesting looking tree. I presume it survives in semi-arid parts of the world?

BTW: a "hedge" tree is NOT a shrub. They are one of the toughest trees that grows in the midwest USA. They are seldom ever broken in a windstorm or ice storm, and they are incredibly resistant to decay. Their wood is one of the very best for firewood because of the very high density. Very gnarly and twisted, they were widely planted in long rows across the midwest following the dustbowl to help deter soil erosion. They became a common fixture in suburban backyards that were formed when home subdivisions invaded the farmers fields surrounded with the Osage Orange, their proper name. Maclura pomifera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclura_pomifera

We don't really like working on these trees, either, because you can never get a branch straight enough to feed into a chipper without a big struggle. It isn't unusual to tie a rope to a branch so that the groundies can pull it out of the tree, either. _They are very difficult to work with._


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## jefflovstrom

View attachment 171616
You can take out a Bottle with an axe. We have many Bottle and does not fit into a Barber chair thread. How about a euc on a slope?
Jeff 

Here is your bottle trunk.


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## randyg

*Barber chair vs Slab out*

Used to be able to get a shave and a hair cut for two bits (25 cents) and this is how it worked. You sit in the chair and the barber pumps on this foot pedal to raise the chair about a foot or two. Then trips a lever and the back of the chair tips back like a recliner and feet go up and you are now in a position for barber to shave. Happens kinda quick and can be a surprise if not warned. Kinda like drifting off to sleep and feel like falling and you jerk.

Slab wood is the term given to pieces of log (usually round on one side) when milling lumber. It is the undesireable byproduct of a milling operation and goes for pulp or firewood, usually worth much less than the boards are.

Cutting the tensioned strap from the inside out using the top of the bar can cause chain to jump off the bar. Using bottom of bar may still cause enough side force on chain to spread bar groove. Cutting from outside and a couple inches below back cut and angled up a bit eliminates that side tension. If saw gets stuck, it will stay on the stump, not drop and roll with the log.


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