# You arborists are going to kill me...



## roberthathaway7 (Dec 7, 2012)

It's going to make me cry a little if I do it, but it has been requested that I grind some surface roots down so a lady can mow without hitting the them. I know it would be great to leave them alone, but this is what she wants. I've seen billions of roots that have been planed by a lawn mower and healed fine, so I was wondering what anyone's thoughts were on taking an electric hand planer to her surface roots and then slapping some pruning paint on them? I figured the smooth cut of the planer would allow for quickest healing. We're looking at 35-40 foot tall gums, prob 18'' diameter. Also, it is my grandmother, and I've had to do several things for her that I tell her she can't tell "ANYone who did this," hahaha, so liability isn't a problem in this case. Plus she says if it kills the trees at least she won't have to pick up the gum balls. It's a pretty legitimate thought on her part because she likes to mow but can't handle the weedeater much. And she likes to have things just so, so she can't wait for me to come around with a weedeater every once in a while. How ok is it to do this? Is there a better (like lesser of two evils better) time of the year to do this? I've actually had several customers approach me about this and I tell them I don't know how risky it is and can't take the chance of killing a tree when I don't know how harmful it will be. Btw I have a lawn mowing business not a tree business so don't get too worried about a tree service guy out there doing work and asking about such questionable practices, lol.


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## cfield (Dec 7, 2012)

I'd bring in some loam to try and change the grade before I purposely harmed the roots. It'd be like taking that hand planer to your arm. Sure you'd probly heal if infection didnt set in. And don't use paint, that's a practice the tree care industry abandoned long ago.


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 7, 2012)

How far are the roots from the bases of the trees?

If you are going to "plane" large roots near the base, say within 10 ft., and it is a rot prone species (poplar, maple, birch, cottonwood, etc.) I would say no. Either put in a shrub bed or remove the tree. I would still tend to say no, even if the species is relatively decay resistant -- I am an arborist, after all. Also, even a decay resistant tree will rot readily if there is irrigation keeping the area moist where the wound is located (and sometimes it doesn't even take a wound!).

For roots farther out, instead of planing, dig around the root and cut it completely off cleanly. Don't bother with wound paint (not really effective). You could paint the surface with an anti-fungal solution. Still, if the root is more than 4 in. in diameter, I would suggest not cutting it and putting in a bed over it. You also have to consider what proportion of roots you are removing on a given tree, and whether a particular root has a critical support function.

These opinions, of course, are based on no knowledge on my part of roots size, position relative to the root crown, tree condition, or species. As a landscaper (as opposed to am Arborist), you still have the professional responsibility not to decrease the value of her trees or potentially increase failure risk, even if she WANTS you to cut or plane the roots. You are the expert relative to her, and should consider walking before you do that if the harm outweighs the benefit of a smooth lawn!


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## expertech (Dec 7, 2012)

A standard for root pruning is cut no closer than 8 inches per 1 inch of trunk diameter from the tree. I give myself a bit more going 10 inches away for every inch of trunk (though I always advise against cutting roots if at all possible). I would use this standard for whatever reason you are cutting the roots. So, for a 10 inch trunk I would cut no root closer than 80 to 100 inches to the tree.  Established, mature trees don't like their roots messed with. Good luck!


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## Grouchy old man (Dec 7, 2012)

The blades on an electric plane are going to last about 2 seconds because of the soil even if you try to clean it off the roots.


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## B Harrison (Dec 7, 2012)

Yeah I was going to go there with the planer blades.

If it's a Gum just have it removed for her and plant her a nice crab apple or something small in a bed. No one likes a gum in their yard!


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## Carburetorless (Dec 7, 2012)

I would raise the grade a little, the roots can't be that far above the ground, a little fill and some top soil, sow some grass seed and lay down some straw, and she'll have a nice smooth yard to mow.


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2012)

Electric hand planer? Tree roots? Old lady complaining? Finally someone is gonna give us some real action around here.


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> The blades on an electric plane are going to last about 2 seconds because of the soil even if you try to clean it off the roots.



no no, everything is gonna be jess fine.


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2012)

roberthathaway7 said:


> It's going to make me cry a little if I do it, but it has been requested that I grind some surface roots down so a lady can mow without hitting the them. I know it would be great to leave them alone, but this is what she wants. I've seen billions of roots that have been planed by a lawn mower and healed fine, so I was wondering what anyone's thoughts were on taking an electric hand planer to her surface roots and then slapping some pruning paint on them? I figured the smooth cut of the planer would allow for quickest healing. We're looking at 35-40 foot tall gums, prob 18'' diameter. Also, it is my grandmother, and I've had to do several things for her that I tell her she can't tell "ANYone who did this," hahaha, so liability isn't a problem in this case. Plus she says if it kills the trees at least she won't have to pick up the gum balls. It's a pretty legitimate thought on her part because she likes to mow but can't handle the weedeater much. And she likes to have things just so, so she can't wait for me to come around with a weedeater every once in a while. How ok is it to do this? Is there a better (like lesser of two evils better) time of the year to do this? I've actually had several customers approach me about this and I tell them I don't know how risky it is and can't take the chance of killing a tree when I don't know how harmful it will be. Btw I have a lawn mowing business not a tree business so don't get too worried about a tree service guy out there doing work and asking about such questionable practices, lol.



Yes, a sweet gum will put out a lot of above ground roots, you might need to get a couple more planers. A lot of complaints are filed against that tree, you probably should just take it down.


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## derwoodii (Dec 8, 2012)

Nay dont worry about pruning sweet gum roots Liquidambar styraciflua, they dont mind a bit of touch up as they handle the impact. 

True it best to avoid wounding roots but more often a compromise will be needed to balance the needs of infrastruature people vs trees.

I done some terrible work to Liquidambar styraciflua and they bounce back and none fallen over ,,,,yet.






















Some trees you can mistreat a bit more than others, knowing which ones and how much hack you go takes some practice and yes mistakes have been made along my way.

er um dont use a electric planer use you stump machine an axe or tungsten chain saw dig and expose area 1st air knife or hand tools to see what root need to stay and what can go.


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## Youngbuck20 (Dec 8, 2012)

derwoodii said:


> Nay dont worry about pruning sweet gum roots Liquidambar styraciflua, they dont mind a bit of touch up as they handle the impact.
> 
> True it best to avoid wounding roots but more often a compromise will be needed to balance the needs of infrastruature people vs trees.
> 
> I done some terrible work to Liquidambar styraciflua and they bounce back and none fallen over ,,,,yet.



what is that orange thing that looks like a pylon on acid? How long ago did u perform this root mutilation? Is it still alive?


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 8, 2012)

Looks like the gas/electrical line locator attachment for a backhoe!

actually thinking its a ripper/slab lifter sort of tool for a backhoe
But digital blurring makes it hard for these eyes to see.


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## derwoodii (Dec 8, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> what is that orange thing that looks like a pylon on acid? How long ago did u perform this root mutilation? Is it still alive?



orange thingys what we call whitches hat traffic cones etc yup done these about hmm 3+ years ago trees are still going strong and standing after many a storm pass over 
To quaifiy my post I do not advocate hacking roots I more often fight to prevent it however the situations given me require compromise or the tree will have to go. I may do many root vs infrastructure assesment a week and not all actions are a root hacks. I will push for diversion of path or drain or earth mounding over or hurdle vaulting or boring under etc etc 
I got some pictures of good engineering results here I'll find em later

Tree wounds heal / seal / rot. May I say the word "heal" is not used, trees dont heal a wound they can seal a wound with codit but with roots wounds more often they will rot over time, note some speices will behave better or worst here.


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## Carburetorless (Dec 8, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> what is that orange thing that looks like a pylon on acid? How long ago did u perform this root mutilation? Is it still alive?



It's the wicked witch of western Australia, after one those guys in the spiffy vests took a leak on her(see the puddle).

"follow the yellow brick road, to where a guy is digging up tree roots"


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## roberthathaway7 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hey thanks guys, just got around to reading this. I ground a stump in her yard the other day purposely while she wasn't home, and she was like "ohh.. you should have got those roots when you were there.. ohwell.." Haha! Suckaaa. Good call on the planer blades, I knew it would get dull pretty quick but I knew I wasn't looking for a lacquered finish so I'd just smoke a few blades. And the "pruning paint" I spoke of was actually legit "pruning sealer" not a random can of spray paint, but I agree on the ani-fungal spray. I wonder if the pruning sealer has anti-fungal ingredients, I'll have to look.. Funny how you look back on ideas like this and think man.. :bang: I'll probably just go whack the roots out with an axe and probably whack the tree down a few months later. She knows the risk. Either outcome will probably make her more pleased than doing nothing at all. She knows it's going to be black ops and I wouldn't do it for another customer. 

Def a good call on the healing vs sealing, I've been in OT school for too long..

Also- great info about the chances of rot and distance from the tree. I was definitely planning to make sure I don't cut too much against the prevailing wind anchors and keep guarding the house in mind.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jan 4, 2013)

Unless you grind for almost free, it would be cheaper to just bring in some dirt and throw one some seed and straw. Why be a hack? Do it the right way.


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## NCTREE (Jan 4, 2013)

How close are these roots to the trunk? Are they buttress roots? If they are i'd be careful, we're talking about roots that hold that SOB up!


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## sweetjetskier (Jan 4, 2013)

Why not mulch the area properly?:msp_confused:


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## Incomplete (Jan 6, 2013)

sweetjetskier said:


> Why not mulch the area properly?:msp_confused:



EXACTLY! Mulch to drip line per Shigo. Bam! No more mowed roots, no more starving trees, mugged by over-grassing, SENDING OUT ROOTS FOR NUTRIENTS AND WATER


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## roberthathaway7 (Jan 6, 2013)

I tried all those ideas as soon as she started talking about it, but she won't have it. Mulch-no. Soil-no. Keep in mind, I am no hack, I'm the guy the type of guy who brings topsoil, grass seed and straw to stump grinding sites (part of the 1%). This is just my grandmother who lives out on a farm by herself where nobody else will see this, so I am just trying to do whatever keeps her happy. She's the coolest sweetest grandma who doesn't complain about much, but when something bothers her, you just feel compelled to make her happy. Like the tree falling in the woods with nobody to see.. if I'm not getting payed for a job, and nobody ever sees it happen, does it make me a hack? Maybe. :msp_wink: Yeah I've talked to her about the buttress roots but I don't remeber that it changed her mind. Waaaait... I don't think the ones she wants cut will matter because they're on the wrong side of the tree. But she won't realize that, so I can just tell her that if I cut the roots and the tree falls on the house and the insurance adjuster sees that the roots had been cut before, they won't cover it. Whether that's true or not, I think she'll go for it


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## Incomplete (Jan 6, 2013)

If she won't, then a round point shovel, a mattock, and an axe are all you need. Si señor!


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## derwoodii (Jan 7, 2013)

roberthathaway7 said:


> I tried all those ideas as soon as she started talking about it, but she won't have it. Mulch-no. Soil-no. Keep in mind, I am no hack, I'm the guy the type of guy who brings topsoil, grass seed and straw to stump grinding sites (part of the 1%). This is just my grandmother who lives out on a farm by herself where nobody else will see this, so I am just trying to do whatever keeps her happy. She's the coolest sweetest grandma who doesn't complain about much, but when something bothers her, you just feel compelled to make her happy. Like the tree falling in the woods with nobody to see.. if I'm not getting payed for a job, and nobody ever sees it happen, does it make me a hack? Maybe. :msp_wink: Yeah I've talked to her about the buttress roots but I don't remeber that it changed her mind. Waaaait... I don't think the ones she wants cut will matter because they're on the wrong side of the tree. But she won't realize that, so I can just tell her that if I cut the roots and the tree falls on the house and the insurance adjuster sees that the roots had been cut before, they won't cover it. Whether that's true or not, I think she'll go for it



Easy it would be if only we had to help the trees and put that before all other intrests. My day is compromise with competing partys over the same space and if the tree looses some roots or limbs better that than lost for good.
The trick for me is to determine how much and how far I must go and win whats worthy and let go what not worth a fight. 
About once a month I crack the ####s and tie myself to nice good tree and say #### off no one touchs this one .

Money is spent and tree is kept intact with diverson and engineering solutions


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## sweetjetskier (Jan 7, 2013)

roberthathaway7 said:


> I tried all those ideas as soon as she started talking about it, but she won't have it. Mulch-no. Soil-no. Keep in mind, I am no hack, I'm the guy the type of guy who brings topsoil, grass seed and straw to stump grinding sites (part of the 1%). This is just my grandmother who lives out on a farm by herself where nobody else will see this, so I am just trying to do whatever keeps her happy. She's the coolest sweetest grandma who doesn't complain about much, but when something bothers her, you just feel compelled to make her happy. Like the tree falling in the woods with nobody to see.. if I'm not getting payed for a job, and nobody ever sees it happen, does it make me a hack? Maybe. :msp_wink: Yeah I've talked to her about the buttress roots but I don't remeber that it changed her mind. Waaaait... I don't think the ones she wants cut will matter because they're on the wrong side of the tree. But she won't realize that, so I can just tell her that if I cut the roots and the tree falls on the house and the insurance adjuster sees that the roots had been cut before, they won't cover it. Whether that's true or not, I think she'll go for it




One of the things I have learned in life and business is:

DO NOT let anyone dictate what they want you do or how to do it!

You are the knowledgeable specialist in this situation, if they do not want to listen to you, move on.

Remember there is plenty of work for quality and service oriented people. 

Good luck


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