# How low do you cut a tree down to a stump?



## Ellistrees (Jan 10, 2010)

Before I had a grinder, I was cutting them usually within an inch and sometimes closer. Though this was really hard on the chain.
Now that I have a grinder, I leave them higher, hoping to also get the customer to pay to have the stump removed. Is this wrong?
I see where others have left stumps a foot high. I think that is little extreme?
How high do you leave your stumps when not grinding?


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## Tree Pig (Jan 10, 2010)

*Depends*

Where I cut it depends on what the customer wants, If they are leaving the stump and want it cut flush I cut it as close as I can without damaging my saw. Id its gonna be ground I leave it a little higher to lesson the risk of an oops. Some times they want them left at a certain height for whatever reason, I have left them 10 feet high for a dog run or clothes line (customers request) I have left them 4 feet because their brother in law was gonna make a chair out of it. I dont grind so if I sell a stump grinding I do it at cost and have regular guy that subs for my stumps but I dont make a cent on it. I use it more often as a tool to sell the job by not charging extra. I understand your thinking about leaving it high to sell a grinding but I think what matters is how much compition is out there. I can see a potential for lousing a bid over something as stupid as someone else saying they will flush cut for the same price. Make an attempt but stay flexible to get the job would be my suggestion.


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## flushcut (Jan 10, 2010)

*stumps*

I cut them as low or as tall as they want but if I am going to be grinding them it's a flush cut.


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## Mikecutstrees (Jan 10, 2010)

flushcut said:


> I cut them as low or as tall as they want but if I am going to be grinding them it's a flush cut.



Well duh thats your name! I cut them low and flat which means above the dirt but level. Unless they ask for something else..... Mike


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## BRCCArborist (Jan 10, 2010)

If it's hard on the chain then you are cutting too low. If you are using a Stihl saw, and have the correct length bar for that saw, if you hold the saw by the middle of handlebar, it should be damn close to level. With the saw leveled, I simply start at the high side of the stump and use the dogs to push the saw around. I can get a really close, flat stump without putting it into the dirt this way.


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## Ellistrees (Jan 10, 2010)

*I also cut high or low per customer request but*

7 out of 10 never say or ask about how high of a stump I will leave.
I don't beleive it has ever made a difference on getting the job or not.

I'm thinking leaving around 2"-4" is fair for me and the customer if they don't want to pay to have the stump removed.

I usually bid the job with grinding the stump and point that out. But I do have about 1/3 customers ask how much less without the stump and want to save that money.
And I usually charge only $100 difference for grinding the stump.


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## clearance (Jan 10, 2010)

All my saw have wrap handles, 'cept for the 200. I love the "cant you cut it any lower"? 

"No, look" 

So, about 3"-4" above the lawn.


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## BRCCArborist (Jan 10, 2010)

clearance said:


> All my saw have wrap handles, 'cept for the 200. I love the "cant you cut it any lower"?
> 
> "No, look"
> 
> So, about 3"-4" above the lawn.



Thats the only thing stopping me from putting wrap handles on my 460. I was just thinking about that yesterday actually.


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## clearance (Jan 11, 2010)

BRCCArborist said:


> Thats the only thing stopping me from putting wrap handles on my 460. I was just thinking about that yesterday actually.



The only thing? That saw needs a wrap handle. Any saw you fall or buck with does, for safety reasons. Sooner or later you will need it, and maybe not put yourself in a bad spot. 
There have been threads about wrap handles here before. With real fallers explaining why, not some wannabe faller like me.


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## gwiley (Jan 11, 2010)

If someone is having equipment come in and remove stumps then 4 feet is a good number - lets the operator get good leverage on a mature tree so that he can pry the stump out more easily.

There is a HUGE difference in the amount of work if the equipment is small (think bobcat) and the tree is large - you really need the leverage that a tall stump offers, otherwise you will need a track loader or back hoe.


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## Groundman One (Jan 11, 2010)

Within an inch or two unless the person gets fussy and asks for perfectly flush with the lawn.

Just FYI, most companies here charge $6 - $7 a linear inch for stump grinding. We don`t do it anymore.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow, even in Canadian dollars that's high; we are around 2.50-3.00.

I tell people if they do not want to pay for the stump grinding, and want it cut low, then they have to pay for the chain.


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## treeslayer (Jan 11, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I tell people if they do not want to pay for the stump grinding, and want it cut low, then they have to pay for the chain.



good one.

I tell EVERY customer on removals, (and write it on EVERY estimate) stump cut at the butt swell. you want the stump gone, grind it. otherwise, look at it til it rots. I'd be happy to cut it flat for a flowerpot, or table, though. knee high, too.

this one can bite ya in the a$$, if you are not careful.


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## outofmytree (Jan 11, 2010)

clearance said:


> The only thing? That saw needs a wrap handle. Any saw you fall or buck with does, for safety reasons. Sooner or later you will need it, and maybe not put yourself in a bad spot.
> There have been threads about wrap handles here before. With real fallers explaining why, not some wannabe faller like me.



Don't sell yourself short mate. I would be interested to know why a full wrap. It isnt something we see much of over here.

As to the OP I usually cut an inch or 2 above grade regardless. If you are having trouble with sand, grab the garden hose and wash off the stump first.


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## canopyboy (Jan 11, 2010)

It's actually one of the defaults on my bid form now. "Stump will be cut to within 6" of the ground." I usually aim for a bit lower and of course if they want something different I'll accommodate. But that's my default. At least it's in writing up front.

I've driven by some jobs where the guys left the stump almost 2ft high for the grinder. A couple days later I saw the guy with the grinder chewing away at it. Seemed like it would be easier to at least cut some of that away first. But I don't grind so maybe I'm missing something.


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## treeslayer (Jan 11, 2010)

full wraps are a pain in the arse sometimes, and not needed most times. IMHO

I'd be curious why a faller would have to have one.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 11, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> good one.
> 
> I tell EVERY customer on removals, (and write it on EVERY estimate) stump cut at the butt swell. you want the stump gone, grind it. otherwise, look at it til it rots. I'd be happy to cut it flat for a flowerpot, or table, though. knee high, too.
> 
> this one can bite ya in the a$$, if you are not careful.



One of my clients put it rather well, if they do not want to pay for a stump-grind, why should I have to sharpen a saw for nothing?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 11, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Don't sell yourself short mate. I would be interested to know why a full wrap. It isnt something we see much of over here.



You manage your felling cut from either side of the tree with ease, using a full wrap saw, using a left or right hand throttle position.


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## Groundman One (Jan 11, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Wow, even in Canadian dollars that's high; we are around 2.50-3.00.



That's a good price. We were always $6 an inch. I think the company had that price for ten-years. We gave up doing it partly because it meant an extra truck going to the job on top of the dumper/chipper rig, and also because our old Vermeer stumper had no drive motor (mega-busted) and had to be muscled into place. Using that thing on a hill was a cast iron *****. And maybe one job in twenty wanted the stump removed. I t made more sense for us just to give up doing it.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> I tell people if they do not want to pay for the stump grinding, and want it cut low, then they have to pay for the chain.



I'd say at least half the people we meet who do want the stumps out are also having work done (septic tank, house extension)where the stump is that requires a backhoe. (We call backhoes _"pehpeens"_ here.) So we tell them to have the backhoe rip out the stump for $50 instead of having it stump grinded for $250.


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## T1MB3RWOLF (Jan 11, 2010)

*wrap handles*



BRCCArborist said:


> Thats the only thing stopping me from putting wrap handles on my 460. I was just thinking about that yesterday actually.




I have a wrap handle on my 660 and my 441, and I love them! They are so handy when you cant get into a good position. Not being able to flush stumps lower is about the only limitation. The pro`s definately outweigh the cons.


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## Koa Man (Jan 11, 2010)

My proposals say "ground level means 10% of stump diameter. 30" dia., 3" off ground." I also state that rocks, foreign objects and root flare may prevent us from cutting below those obstacles.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Jan 12, 2010)

*flush cut*

Flush cut above dirt,rock,metal post level. May be 1-8inches above ground to clear obstacles. Otherwise statement says flush cut above dirt. Those who grind stump by the inch are crazy. Very little profit to made.


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> Those who grind stump by the inch are crazy. Very little profit to made.



At $6 an inch it`s not so bad. And we used to measure the full flare and include any roots we had to chase. So a 20 inch tree might be 30 inches with the flare, and more with any roots. That``s $180+. Not bad. And no way it takes more than an hour and a half..

It`s not that it didn`t pay well enough, it was just a PITA for us to do and there wasn`t that much demand from the customers.


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## ozzy42 (Jan 12, 2010)

Final cut depends on the stump and the area around it .
If it's dirty with a big root rise,I will right down on the proposal
"final cut to be x amount of inches above grade"

Like others have said,why should I ruin a sharp chain because they don't want the stump ground?
Let it rot ,or let me grind the stump.



PS :agree2: with the poster who said it's not good to grind stumps by the inch,,,tooo many variables.


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> PS :agree2: with the poster who said it's not good to grind stumps by the inch,,,tooo many variables.



In what way?

I'm certainly not looking for an argument, just interested in hearing how other people view the job.


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## Live Oak (Jan 12, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> In what way?
> 
> I'm certainly not looking for an argument, just interested in hearing how other people view the job.


In the greater Detroit area most companies do stump grinding free with the removal or do not grind properly.


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## treejock1 (Jan 12, 2010)

I think the most important thing here is how well have you dicussed the work to be done with the customer. I learned the hard way if you don't explain every aspect of the job clearly and make sure customer understands, your gonna have conflict. PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING!!


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

Live Oak said:


> In the greater Detroit area most companies do stump grinding free with the removal or do not grind properly.



When you say "free with the removal" you mean, of course, that the cost of grinding the stump is included in the cost of removing the tree?


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## Live Oak (Jan 12, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> When you say "free with the removal" you mean, of course, that the cost of grinding the stump is included in the cost of removing the tree?


For me it has become difficult to gage the market. Since emerald ash borer hit the great lakes & Ontario the competition has skyrocketed. I am hoping this season the good companies will start to see the unqualified competition fall apart.


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

Live Oak said:


> For me it has become difficult to gage the market. Since emerald ash borer hit the great lakes & Ontario the competition has skyrocketed. I am hoping this season the good companies will start to see the unqualified competition fall apart.



Never heard of the emerald ash borer. (Google will be my friend.)

After the Great Ice Storm of '98, every bozo not on a leash bought a saw and went into business. The true bozos didn't last, the slightly smarter bozos ended up selling out a year or two later because all the fancy gear they bought and had to pay for, you know, had to be paid for. Too much overhead too fast and no client base once the storm damage was dealt with. They went boobs up as well.

We have competition, but we have a healthy client base, and our overhead is rock bottom and we can dance through the lean months.


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## Live Oak (Jan 12, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Never heard of the emerald ash borer. (Google will be my friend.)
> 
> After the Great Ice Storm of '98, every bozo not on a leash bought a saw and went into business. The true bozos didn't last, the slightly smarter bozos ended up selling out a year or two later because all the fancy gear they bought and had to pay for, you know, had to be paid for. Too much overhead too fast and no client base once the storm damage was dealt with. They went boobs up as well.
> 
> We have competition, but we have a healthy client base, and our overhead is rock bottom and we can dance through the lean months.


I think Canucks are all-rite. bet it's cold climbing in Quebec.


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## T1MB3RWOLF (Jan 12, 2010)

*When you hit steel*



Groundman One said:


> In what way?
> 
> I'm certainly not looking for an argument, just interested in hearing how other people view the job.



Do you include the mound of soil/roots around the stump when you are measuring for a price? I would definately include the root flare. I have never done it by the inch, but I am seriously considering it so I dont have to drive 40 kilometers (90? miles) for a stump estimate. 

Also, what do you guys do when ya find a thick chunk of steel in the stump. Ever walk away and say "sorry, no can do."?


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## T1MB3RWOLF (Jan 12, 2010)

*ash borer*



Groundman One said:


> Never heard of the emerald ash borer. (Google will be my friend.)
> 
> After the Great Ice Storm of '98, every bozo not on a leash bought a saw and went into business. The true bozos didn't last, the slightly smarter bozos ended up selling out a year or two later because all the fancy gear they bought and had to pay for, you know, had to be paid for. Too much overhead too fast and no client base once the storm damage was dealt with. They went boobs up as well.
> 
> We have competition, but we have a healthy client base, and our overhead is rock bottom and we can dance through the lean months.



Your in Quebec? Those little shiny green beatles will be crossing the state line this season. They were in Ottawa last season (2009). I am near Windsor/Detroit and I would say 93% of our Ash are dead. They killed over 1 million ash in my county (essex) alone! It is terrible, but I`ve been swamped with work, and still am now in the middle of January. 

Ever hear of the Asian LongHorn Beatle?


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

T1MB3RWOLF said:


> Do you include the mound of soil/roots around the stump when you are measuring for a price? I would definately include the root flare. I have never done it by the inch, but I am seriously considering it so I dont have to drive 40 kilometers (90? miles) for a stump estimate.



We would measure the full flare and add $50 or whatever if we thought we would have to chase roots around. We were never conservative about pricing stumps except for good clients or big jobs where you were willing to give an inch in order to gain a foot.



T1MB3RWOLF said:


> Also, what do you guys do when ya find a thick chunk of steel in the stump. Ever walk away and say "sorry, no can do."?



Interesting. No, never found a chuck of steel, just rocks. Lots and lots of rocks.


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

Live Oak said:


> I think Canucks are all-rite.



Well thank you. And I think y'all Americans are top shelf. 



Live Oak said:


> et it's cold climbing in Quebec.



Yeah, my climber was complaining a bit today. He gets sweaty feet (gross) so he wears leather boots with no insulation for climbing, but all that steel in the spurs conducts cold like a magnet and his feet get pretty chilly. 

I always tell him he'll get no sympathy from me except for his fingers. When it friggin cold, -20c, and he's up there with thin gloves so he can keep a good grip, I tell ya, I can feel the pain fifty-feet below. You have to be tough to do that.


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## Live Oak (Jan 12, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Well thank you. And I think y'all Americans are top shelf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cannot imagine what that kind of cold is like.


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## Groundman One (Jan 12, 2010)

Live Oak said:


> I cannot imagine what that kind of cold is like.



I thought y'all Michigonians got smacked in the winter?


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## Live Oak (Jan 12, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> I thought y'all Michigonians got smacked in the winter?


I'm not sure how Celcius transfers but it was like 25 degrees Fahrenheit. that's only a few degrees below freezing. 20degrees C seems dangerously cold.


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## Koa Man (Jan 14, 2010)

If you want to price stump grinding by the inch, it should be square inches and not inches in diameter. A 24 inch diameter stump has almost 4 times the area of a 12 inch diameter stump. I can get $350 to grind a 24 inch diameter stump. From what I have observed on the different tree forums, stump grinding in most areas of the continental US is really cheap.


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## ozzy42 (Jan 14, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> In what way?



Too many variables:hardwood,softwood,stringy palms,is stump cut flush to ground to begin with ,or is it a 6 inch toe stopper ,exposed roots that must be chased half way across the yard????????
Any of these could be the case when potential client calls and ask 
"How much to grind a 16 in stump?"

Maybe $50.....Maybe $150 ...all depends




> I'm certainly not looking for an argument, just interested in hearing how other people view the job.




No offense taken.


















Koa Man said:


> If you want to price stump grinding by the inch, it should be square inches and not inches in diameter. A 24 inch diameter stump has almost 4 times the area of a 12 inch diameter stump. I can get $350 to grind a 24 inch diameter stump. From what I have observed on the different tree forums, stump grinding in most areas of the continental US is really cheap.



:agree2:
A 24 in stump is not always the same as 2 12in stumps.


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## Koa Man (Jan 14, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> A 24 in stump is not always the same as 2 12in stumps.



It is NEVER the same. A 24 inch stump is more equal to FOUR 12 inch stumps, not two.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 14, 2010)

(12*3.141592)2=75.398208
24*3.141592=7598208


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## bushinspector (Jan 14, 2010)

We always cut to the root flare. If we grind the stump we charge 2.00 a inch at the widest spot. I just tell the customer - as wide the hole will be when we get done. Measure the distance in inches and then double it. This lets them spend as much as they want. We give a lot less free bids and saves a lot of gas.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 14, 2010)

Whatever the customer wants..

Unless of course I am grinding as well, then cut as close to ground as possible to make grinding easy.


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## Koa Man (Jan 15, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> (12*3.141592)2=75.398208
> 24*3.141592=7598208



John,
That is correct mathematically, but in the real world of stump grinding, you know that it is much easier to grind two 12" stumps compared to one 24" stump. Taking it even further, I can grind four 12" stumps in half the time it would take to grind one 48" stump.


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## Norwayclimber (Jan 15, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> (12*3.141592)2=75.398208
> 24*3.141592=7598208




Thats the correct formula if you want to know the distance arround the stump.

To find the squareflat you have to use 3,14 * r * r

Two 12 inch stumps

(3,14 * 6 * 6) 2 = 226 square inches


One 24 inch stumps

3,14 * 12 * 12 = 452 square inches


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 15, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> (12*3.141592)2=75.398208
> 24*3.141592=7598208



??

What is this formula for. That is for circumference, not area.

If doing square inches (or area) of the stump.. the formula is (pi X radius squared)

12 inch stump is = 113.097312 sq inches
24 inch stump is = 452.389248 sq inches

That is obviously one stump only and one that is a true circle.. never met one of those yet but maybe someday.

Formula for (2 X pi X r) or (d X pi) is for the circumference.

12 inch stump is = 37.699104 inches circumference.
24 inch stump is = 75.398208 inches circumference.

I grind the area when I do a stump..


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 15, 2010)

Norwayclimber said:


> Thats the correct formula if you want to know the distance arround the stump.
> 
> To find the squareflat you have to use 3,14 * r * r
> 
> ...



Whoops.. somebody else picked up on it.


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## Koa Man (Jan 15, 2010)

All you math guys, thanks for backing me up. I am no math expert, but I just know from experience it takes much longer to grind a 24" stump compared to two 12" ones. Now I know mathematically how to prove what I knew for a long time, that doubling the diameter is increasing the area four times.


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## outofmytree (Jan 15, 2010)

Don't be too hard on JPS. Base 10 math is tough for "older" guys who still think in base 12.:monkey:


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## Norwayclimber (Jan 15, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Don't be too hard on JPS. Base 10 math is tough for "older" guys who still think in base 12.:monkey:



No intentions on being hard, just pointing out the facts  As for the Base stuff I have no idea of what you're speaking of 

Anyways, since we've allready gone off topic, I know the maths, but I still charge by the inch (or cm to be more precise) I make less money on big stumps, but save lots of time in bidding. I just tell them the price over the phone, and let them do the maths, simple and clean


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 15, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Don't be too hard on JPS. Base 10 math is tough for "older" guys who still think in base 12.:monkey:



Actually my gut was agreeing, but my math was not. I had a strong feeling i was wrong, hence my just putting the figures there.

But i did get pi right  without looking it up.


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## Pruning Artist (Feb 7, 2010)

View attachment 124410


View attachment 124411


Guess I get carried away . Some don't even cut it flat / straight , I think that looks sloppy .


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## voxac30dude (Feb 8, 2010)

for me it doesn't matter how big the stump is i allways leave the stump 6 inches above grade when i cut down a tree. people here on maui tend to like it that way.


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## airman (Feb 11, 2010)

it depends upon if I am grinding it or not, what the customer wants and what the $ is on the job.
typically at the flair, sometines lower


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## dukntz (Feb 11, 2010)

Do any of your prices include stump chip removal? That is the hard one to bid, been burned by not anticipating how long it takes to rake out all the chips and backfill. If you dont get enough of the stump out or leave too much chips, you get mushrooms next year. And not the good kind!


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## Ellistrees (Feb 18, 2010)

*I usually give price both ways - clean up and no clean up*

I like to price my stumps at .25 cents per square inch with full clean up. 
And I have a min. for going out. Then I'll give a discount for no removal of chips and just blow them around the yard. Though big stumps I do not recommend this because of the large amount of chips. These days people want the cheapest price.
Also I grind stumps about 30% less if I'm taking the tree down. This makes the overall job seem better.


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## pdqdl (Feb 18, 2010)

dukntz said:


> Do any of your prices include stump chip removal? That is the hard one to bid, been burned by not anticipating how long it takes to rake out all the chips and backfill. If you dont get enough of the stump out or leave too much chips, you get mushrooms next year. And not the good kind!



Grindings are easy.

Take the area measurements (shown above) and apply them to the entire diameter of the area that will be ground up. Multiply by the depth of material you are grinding (above and below ground). If all measurements are done in inches, you will probably want to convert that to cubic feet by dividing by 12 cubed=1728. You now have a good approximation of the cubic feet of material that will be ground up.

OOOps! That will be the volume PRIOR to becoming wood chips. Multiply by about 3-4 (volume increases dramatically when you grind), divide by 6 cubic feet per wheelbarrow (roughly) and you will have a good idea how many wheelbarrows you will be hauling away.

24" diameter stump, with 6" above ground and 9" deep grind=about 4 wheelbarrows.

48" stump, using the same method: 15 wheelbarrows? It all depends on the wood and the grinder.

_That sounds about right. Maybe more, maybe less._

You could save yourself some time, measure in feet only, and presume that one cubic foot of wood to grind will make one wheelbarrow of grindings.


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## Ellistrees (Feb 18, 2010)

*Sure those numbers are right*

Quote above ""24" diameter stump, with 6" above ground and 9" deep grind=about 4 wheelbarrows.

48" stump, using the same method: 5 wheelbarrows. 15 wheelbarrows? It all depends on the wood and the grinder.""

_That sounds about right. Maybe more, maybe less._



Wow, I'd like to see his grinder. When I do a 48" stump, I get about 2 pickup loads of chips and I don't go that deep, maybe 6" on average. Maybe my grinder fluffs them up, LOL:monkey:


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## highpointtree (Feb 18, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> At $6 an inch it`s not so bad. And we used to measure the full flare and include any roots we had to chase. So a 20 inch tree might be 30 inches with the flare, and more with any roots. That``s $180+. Not bad. And no way it takes more than an hour and a half..
> 
> It`s not that it didn`t pay well enough, it was just a PITA for us to do and there wasn`t that much demand from the customers.



I would grind that stump and clean it up in 20-30 minutes for the same price.


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## lone wolf (Feb 18, 2010)

clearance said:


> All my saw have wrap handles, 'cept for the 200. I love the "cant you cut it any lower"?
> 
> "No, look"
> 
> So, about 3"-4" above the lawn.





I had a hard hat that said on it "no we cant get the stump any lower" and "no we cant cut just one more branch"


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## highpointtree (Feb 18, 2010)

I have a hook lift truck and if I have a big stump that I can get close to I put the box on the ground next to the stump and push most of the grindings right into the box with the dozer blade. grinder is 66hp 4x4 rayco rg50. I have ground out single stumps that cost as much as $1,000.00 and many a $500.00 stump.


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## pdqdl (Feb 18, 2010)

Ellistrees said:


> Wow, I'd like to see his grinder. When I do a 48" stump, I get about 2 pickup loads of chips and I don't go that deep, maybe 6" on average. Maybe my grinder fluffs them up, LOL:monkey:



Your average pickup truck has a 8' x 4' bed (between the wheel wells), with an average width of 64". Filled flat & level to 20", that would be 71 cubic feet, or about 12 wheelbarrow loads (6 cu.ft. each) per pickup load. Quite a bit more if you pile it high and stomp it down. Of course, those calculations are for a wheelbarrow that is only filled flat & level.

Carefully measure a couple of stumps, grind them, measure the rakings, and then you will be able to predict how much mulch you will generally get.
(I don't ever measure close, 'cause you know you have to grind it, and you know there will be a lot of chips on a big stump)


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