# Crappy Stihl Cylinder - Looks like ChiCom Garbage!!!



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

So much for Stihl quality ehh? Check out this crap I found in a brand new MS260! The piston is marked Mahle and looks good. The cylinder is only marked Stihl. What are they doing? Outsourcing this crap to China?! Sure looks like it. So much for bashing the BB kits and hold up Stihl as an example. At least Husky is stihl using Mahle cylinders on their pro saws that I've seen.

Finish of the transfers.














And check out this chip!!





Nice big bulge in the intake.





And a big lip from the other side!





Nice casting line.





Check out the edge of the exhaust port. And more nice casting flaws.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Nice casting ehh?





The combustion chamber isn't any too pretty either.








I noticed that ALL the ports are more beveled on the left side than the right. The transfers are particularly pathetic. You have a *HUGE *bevel on one side, and *NONE* on the other.
Right Front





Right Rear





Left Front





Left Rear







Here this is supposed to be one of Stihls professional saws. They have majorly dropped the ball on cylinder quality!


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## wigglesworth (May 7, 2009)

WOW!!! that is junk.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Call Stihl and get another, you won't have a problem getting one. It doesn't look good but I'd take it over a chicom kit anyday.


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## striperswaper (May 7, 2009)

so what are you going to do?


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

striperswaper said:


> so what are you going to do?



I don't know. I'm going to contact the owner of the saw and see what he says. I'll probably drop by my dealer with it tonight and see if they can help me out.


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## Evan (May 7, 2009)

holy heck. i havent seen one that bad on my old saws .

in all reality i havent been impressed with stihl quality. i realy think alot of theyre stuff is way overated. but still stihl does seem to have the best reputation already, so i guess they assume they can put out cheap crap and hang on to the rep.


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## Sawdustmaker (May 7, 2009)

I have heard that the chrome on these some times does not go all the way to the top. did you check that?


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## Evan (May 7, 2009)

crap theyre chromeing these things now??? were can i get one:greenchainsaw:

maybe thats what well see be the next fad, chromed cylinders like its a harley or something


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Sawdustmaker said:


> I have heard that the chrome on these some times does not go all the way to the top. did you check that?



That looks ok. I read where Timberwolf found similiar problems on a new 460 and 660 I think it was. I've not seen any other quality problems with pro Stihl saws. Dropping the Mahle cylinders was a huge step in the wrong direction!


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## funky sawman (May 7, 2009)

OMG, the holy mother of saw brands has a problem----what do we do:jawdrop: AH, just have to give you stihl diehards some crap. I sure want an 044 to build though.:monkey:


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## Jacob J. (May 7, 2009)

A drop in quality of casting finishes is nothing new and to be expected when a company starts doing something 'in-house' that was formerly outsourced.

If you want to see a crappy cylinder, check out some of the early Mahle 046 cylinders. They'd make you gag.

Some of the stuff you're pointing out is benign, like the beveling on the lower transfers. The piston doesn't contact that area and beveling there makes little difference. What really bothers me is that big chip in the Nikasil. That's ugly. The combustion chamber is ugly too. 

One of the nicest saw cylinders I've seen in my life was a Gilardoni cylinder from an early 2100. The Gilardoni cylinders from the early Pioneers were works of art. It's pretty sad to see greed take the place of pride in workmanship.


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## bcorradi (May 7, 2009)

Wonder if the orange dot on the top of the cylinder has any meaning? I'm not defending it, but is it possible a cylinder that didn't pass inspection got put on a saw? Have you opened up enough new MS260's to determine this is the norm vs the exception?


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

JJ, you are correct. I'm sure I can port this saw and it'll run fine. But these defects simply should not be there. My personal 260 cylinder looks nothing like this.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Wonder if the orange dot on the top of the cylinder has any meaning? I'm not defending it, but is it possible a cylinder that didn't pass inspection got put on a saw? Have you opened up enough new MS260's to determine this is the norm vs the exception?



Don't know. But it is in line with what Brian found on the 460 and 660 with Stihl brand cylinders.


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## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

Well, that's obviously a piece of garbage. But let's be careful not to condem every cylinder that Stihl sells, without some more info. 

But if they have decided to get their cylinders from China, then that would be a serious issue. What's more, if they are selling stuff like that as OEM replacements, what are they putting on new saws at the factory?


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> What's more, if they are selling stuff like that as OEM replacements, what are they putting on new saws at the factory?



This is a brand new factory saw!


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## Sawdustmaker (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> That looks ok. I read where Timberwolf found similiar problems on a new 460 and 660 I think it was. I've not seen any other quality problems with pro Stihl saws. Dropping the Mahle cylinders was a huge step in the wrong direction!



yeah, here is the picture timberwolf posted



>



is it chrome or nikasil?


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Call Stihl and get another, you won't have a problem getting one. It doesn't look good but I'd take it over a chicom kit anyday.



STIHL #1!! STIHL #1!! It's the largest selling brand in the known universe!! There is nothing wrong with that cylinder, it was made by Stihl, and they're #1!!!

*Stihl #1!*​

.


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## Evan (May 7, 2009)

nikasil


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Sawdustmaker said:


> yeah, here is the picture timberwolf posted
> 
> 
> 
> is it chrome or nikasil?



It actually does look a little like that. The ring is considerable below that though, so I won't be going near the edge. I don't know what the finish is.


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## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

*cylinder identification*

my 026 is at home so I can't see for myself till tonight but are the cylinder id markings visible by only taking the plastic off?


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> my 026 is at home so I can't see for myself till tonight but are the cylinder id markings visible by only taking the plastic off?



Remember, your cylinder is aftermarket.


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## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

Where's the Champ now or is it the King?....You know, Captain Defender of all things Stihl. 

How dare you put a little tarnish on that sterling reputation, Bradley! :censored:


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Where's the Champ now or is it the King?....You know, Captain Defender of all things Stihl.
> 
> How dare you put a little tarnish on that sterling reputation, Bradley! :censored:



NO! YOU ARE WRONG!! Stihl is #1!! 8,000,000,000,000,000 customers cannot be wrong!!


.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> STIHL #1!! STIHL #1!! It's the largest selling brand in the known universe!! There is nothing wrong with that cylinder, it was made by Stihl, and they're #1!!!
> 
> *Stihl #1!*​
> 
> .



I will bet $$$$, Stihl will replace that cylinder.


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> But let's be careful not to condem every cylinder that Stihl sells, without some more info.



Where's the fun in that? 

(Don't mind me, 2K...I'll be here all day!)

.


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## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I will bet $$$$, Stihl will replace that cylinder.



How about they replace the entire mold! opcorn:


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## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Remember, your cylinder is aftermarket.



The reason I was asking was that I would never buy a saw with that type of cylinder. I was hoping that by removing only the plastic, a person may be able to see the cylinder id markings and decide whether or not they want to buy the saw.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> How about they replace the entire mold! opcorn:



You can request that but getting the cylinder replaced will be faster. The crack in the nik is what worries me, even though the rings won't touch that part.


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## maico490 (May 7, 2009)

Hi Brad,
I think you will find that every lump, bump, line, bevel and chip have all been subjected to computer analysis and flow testing to provide the optimum performance level across a wide range of conditions.

On the other hand it may be a crappy cylinder!


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Where's the Champ now or is it the King?....You know, Captain Defender of all things Stihl.
> 
> How dare you put a little tarnish on that sterling reputation, Bradley! :censored:



He's right here Fast. Now as Paul Harvey would say lets get to the rest of story. Yes that cylinder looks crappy as hell but hey its one cylinder, oh my what are we gonna do. I happen to recall something more much more costly than that on a saw I happened to buy, a solid orange one at that. Where was Fast then, hmmmmmmmm. 

That cylinder looks like crappy as hell for sure, yuk. See Fast there are no excuses or blah blah blah with me, it is what it is. I'd only like to know one thing concerning that cylinder, how does the saw run??


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I'd only like to know one thing concerning that cylinder, how does the saw run??



This has me "all shook up", lol. Not really. I'm sure it would run fine, but so do most chicom parts. The quality is not here, plain and simple. Plus I would be surprised if Stihl won't replace it. The question is, will the next one look any better. If I'm lucky, the warehouse will have NOS Mahle kit. If it were my saw and I couldn't get a NOS Mahle kit, I'd be hitting up bcorradi to see if his are Mahle. We'll see what the dealer has to say after work today.

Is Stihl actually making these in their own facility? I'd be surprised if they are. I just don't see this kind of garbage on the rest of their parts.


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## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Where's the Champ now or is it the King?....You know, Captain Defender of all things Stihl.
> 
> How dare you put a little tarnish on that sterling reputation, Bradley! :censored:



FC,

Hold on a moment here. I remember ole Tommie going to bat for a member here that was not his customer and getting a 361 cylinder replaced, even though it was doubtful that the "flaw" would present any performance or reliability issues.

Tommie may wear Stihl underwear, but, he does call 'em as he sees 'em.

Joat


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> FC,
> 
> Hold on a moment here. I remember ole Tommie going to bat for a member here that was not his customer and getting a 361 cylinder replaced, even though it was doubtful that the "flaw" would present any performance or reliability issues.
> 
> ...



You're sure putting ol Tom on the hot seat here


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

The saw was bought brand new on 12-26-08 in Eureka MO. Hopefully my dealer will help me out even though it wasn't bought there or by me. I do have a great relationship with them and have bought thousands of dollars of parts there.


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## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You're sure putting ol Tom on the hot seat here



Brad,

I think not. Tommie was accused of blindly accepting/loving all things Stihl when he has repeatedly demonstrated objectivity when it comes to Stihl and quality issues. Now, there are some Stihl cheerleaders here that don't demonstrate that objectivity and they would serve as better examples for Fastcast in his post I referenced.

Joat


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> I think not. Tommie was accused of blindly accepting/loving all things Stihl when he has repeatedly demonstrated objectivity when it comes to Stihl and quality issues. Now, there are some Stihl cheerleaders here that don't demonstrate that objectivity and they would serve as better examples for Fastcast in his post I referenced.
> 
> Joat



I respect that in a dealer. I'm a Stihl head myself, and this is not what I've come to expect, nor what I've seen in any other Stihl I've worked on.


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## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I'd only like to know one thing concerning that cylinder, how does the saw run??



So are you alright with that degradation in quality, as long as the mighty Stihl saws stihl run fine? opcorn:


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## AZLOGGER (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> This has me "all shook up", lol. Not really. I'm sure it would run fine, but so do most chicom parts. The quality is not here, plain and simple. Plus I would be surprised if Stihl won't replace it. The question is, will the next one look any better. If I'm lucky, the warehouse will have NOS Mahle kit. If it were my saw and I couldn't get a NOS Mahle kit, I'd be hitting up bcorradi to see if his are Mahle. We'll see what the dealer has to say after work today.
> 
> *Is Stihl actually making these in their own facility? I'd be surprised if they are. I just don't see this kind of garbage on the rest of their parts.*



No Brad there made in the Zama factory, that _*STIHL* _purchased! 

I hope *STIHL* quits selling Zama carbs to Husqvarna, then maybe *Husqvarna *will put a decent carb on their products.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

AZLOGGER said:


> No Brad there made in the Zama factory, that _*STIHL* _purchased!
> 
> I hope *STIHL* quits selling Zama carbs to Husqvarna, then maybe *Husqvarna *will put a decent carb on their products.



And where is the Zama factory? You guessed it, *CHINA!!!!!!!!!!!!* LINK


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## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> This is a brand new factory saw!



Ooops, I "assumed", and I shouldn't do that. 

It's still just one cylinder, but of course it would matter to the guy who bought it.

I wonder how many members are going to tear their saws apart to check cylinders. LOL

The other thing to keep in mind is that if the saw was never taken apart, it might have run for how many years without a problem. 

I do still think it's a valid question to ask where Stihl is sourcing these cylinders from.


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## striperswaper (May 7, 2009)

Zamastan?


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## gink595 (May 7, 2009)

I just bought a new in box 066 P&C from Super3 this past weekend that is probably 10+ years old, i couldn't believe how nice of a casting it was it looked nothing like what you posted. It does look like china quality work. Thats to bad. The exhaust port on my 7900 looked very high quality also.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> It's still just one cylinder, but of course it would matter to the guy who bought it.



This isn't the first this has been seen. Here's where Timberwolf first commented on it. LINK


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

gink595 said:


> I just bought a new in box 066 P&C from Super3 this past weekend that is probably 10+ years old, i couldn't believe how nice of a casting it was it looked nothing like what you posted. It does look like china quality work. Thats to bad. The exhaust port on my 7900 looked very high quality also.



Mahle still does nice work. That's the problem here. Stihl has cheaped out and gone with garbage manufactured in China at their Zama plant evidentally.


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## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> FC,
> 
> Hold on a moment here. I remember ole Tommie going to bat for a member here that was not his customer and getting a 361 cylinder replaced, even though it was doubtful that the "flaw" would present any performance or reliability issues.
> 
> ...





joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> I think not. Tommie was accused of blindly accepting/loving all things Stihl when he has repeatedly demonstrated objectivity when it comes to Stihl and quality issues. Now, there are some Stihl cheerleaders here that don't demonstrate that objectivity and they would serve as better examples for Fastcast in his post I referenced.
> 
> Joat



Oh, Joat....I know Tommy is a good ole boy who helps out and I like him.  He's just more fun to pick on, them some of dem other Stihlbillies. Mostly cuz he always has those silly come backs and he rarely gives up till ya tire of his shenanigans and try to ignore him. :chatter:


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> This has me "all shook up", lol. Not really. I'm sure it would run fine, but so do most chicom parts. The quality is not here, plain and simple. Plus I would be surprised if Stihl won't replace it. The question is, will the next one look any better. If I'm lucky, the warehouse will have NOS Mahle kit. If it were my saw and I couldn't get a NOS Mahle kit, I'd be hitting up bcorradi to see if his are Mahle. We'll see what the dealer has to say after work today.
> 
> Is Stihl actually making these in their own facility? I'd be surprised if they are. I just don't see this kind of garbage on the rest of their parts.



Thats why I asked you how that saw runs. Does it run any worse than other 
260's? I'm very curious because if does you may have a case to a new jug. Also are you going to use that cylinder or pitch it?


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Thats why I asked you how that saw runs. Does it run any worse than other
> 260's? I'm very curious because if does you may have a case to a new jug. Also are you going to use that cylinder or pitch it?



As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if it runs properly or not. That's besides the fact and does not justify the lack of quality here. This is not what a customer pays for when he pays $540 for a little 50cc pro Stihl saw. I'm hoping my dealer will replace this cylinder. I know I wouldn't want it on my saw.


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if it runs properly or not. That's besides the fact and does not justify the lack of quality here. This is not what a customer pays for when he pays $540 for a little 50cc pro Stihl saw. I'm hoping my dealer will replace this cylinder. I know I wouldn't want it on my saw.



*STIHL #1! STIHL #1!​*
(Sorry...am I helping at all, here?  )


.


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## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *STIHL #1! STIHL #1!​*
> (Sorry...am I helping at all, here?  )
> 
> 
> .



Woodster,

As much as ever.

Carry on,

Joat


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Oh, Joat....I know Tommy is a good ole boy who helps out and I like him.  He's just more fun to pick on, them some of dem other Stihlbillies. Mostly cuz he always has those silly come backs and he rarely gives up till ya tire of his shenanigans and try to ignore him. :chatter:



I take offense to that statement. You picking on me is like Buckwheat attempting to pick on George Foreman,LOLOL

Hey Fast look at the bottom of the page. Ever notice when there is a Stihl issue it draws a ton of people. When there's a Dolmar or Husky issue we Stihl guys don't rush in and go ha haaaaaaaaaa. Its really kinda good to see yaw get a bone to chew on now and then,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *STIHL #1! STIHL #1!​*
> (Sorry...am I helping at all, here?  )
> 
> 
> .



Yup, you finally admit they are #1.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

AZLOGGER said:


> No Brad there made in the Zama factory, that _*STIHL* _purchased!





blsnelling said:


> And where is the Zama factory? You guessed it, *CHINA!!!!!!!!!!!!* LINK





blsnelling said:


> This isn't the first this has been seen. Here's where Timberwolf first commented on it. LINK



Can someone else confirm this, not that I doubt you AZLOGGER. I'd just like to nail this down before I start blabbing that Stihl is putting China crap cylinders on their pro saws, including at least the 260, 460, and 660.


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## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I take offense to that statement. You picking on me is like Buckwheat attempting to pick on George Foreman,LOLOL
> 
> Hey Fast look at the bottom of the page. Ever notice when there is a Stihl issue it draws a ton of people. When there's a Dolmar or Husky issue we Stihl guys don't rush in and go ha haaaaaaaaaa. Its really kinda good to see yaw get a bone to chew on now and then,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Not! If that cylinder came out of a new 372xp it would shut the site down with stihl lover activity. You guys love to talk about husky like they're cheaply made.


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## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

woodie said:


> *stihl #1! Stihl #1!​*
> (sorry...am i helping at all, here?  )
> 
> 
> .



lmao


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## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

blackcatbone said:


> not! If that cylinder came out of a new 372xp it would shut the site down with stihl lover activity. You guys love to talk about husky like they're cheaply made.



true


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Not! If that cylinder came out of a new 372xp it would shut the site down with stihl lover activity. You guys love to talk about husky like they're cheaply made.



Like I said earlier and most of you guys know, I'm a Stihl head at heart. But you WON'T find an inferior cylinder like this on a 372. Mahle all the way. For that matter, the cylinders I've seen off of 359s look much better than this.


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## TRI955 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Hey Fast look at the bottom of the page. Ever notice when there is a Stihl issue it draws a ton of people. When there's a Dolmar or Husky issue we Stihl guys don't rush in and go ha haaaaaaaaaa. :



Neither do the Shindaiwa guys.....




You know, once you go RED you.......well you know!

PB, You know which one is the best RED saw!!!


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> When there's a Dolmar or Husky issue we Stihl guys don't rush in and go ha haaaaaaaaaa.



Yes, you do! Holy God you do!

I guess this whole thing just helps to point out what many of us have been saying all along...stihl quality is kind of overrated. 

Their specs are usually mid-pack, but the stihlheads rave-on about 'but stihl quality is far superior!' So it's one of those prove-it kind of things. 

Well...here's evidence. Not 'proof,' mind you, because it's a sample size of one. (Although given Timberwolf's earlier thread, I'd say it's pretty _good_ evidence...)


.


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## Grande Dog (May 7, 2009)

Howdy,
Lot of valid points here. It's chrome plated. Unless it failed, I doubt if they would replace it under warranty. It'll be interesting to see if they'll replace it under a customer service issue, or if they lock their jaw and say run it. Brad, what's the first digit of the serial number? 
Regards
Gregg


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## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> When there's a Dolmar or Husky issue we Stihl guys don't rush in and go ha haaaaaaaaaa. :



Well sure they do ole buddy....LOL

There's no doubt that if this was a Husky cylinder, the Stihl guys would be all over it. There's Stihl guys all over the country right now looking for a junk Husky cylinder. Somebody will probably find one too. LOL. I'll see if I can come up with one and save them all that trouble.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Lot of valid points here. It's chrome plated. Unless it failed, I doubt if they would replace it under warranty. It'll be interesting to see if they'll replace it under a customer service issue, or if they lock their jaw and say run it. Brad, what's the first digit of the serial number?
> Regards
> Gregg



27304xxxx. Bought in December '08. The saw looks like it's seen maybe 2-3 tanks of fuel.


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## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Lot of valid points here. It's chrome plated. Unless it failed, I doubt if they would replace it under warranty. It'll be interesting to see if they'll replace it under a customer service issue, or if they lock their jaw and say run it. Brad, what's the first digit of the serial number?
> Regards
> Gregg



Gregg has a good point here, and it would apply to every OEM. I doubt Husky or Jonsered would respond favorably to a warranty claim written up like this: "Customer removed cylinder and didn't like the way it looked." 

But Brad is right, it does look like crap.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Well sure they do ole buddy....LOL
> 
> There's no doubt that if this was a Husky cylinder, the Stihl guys would be all over it. There's Stihl guys all over the country right now looking for a junk Husky cylinder. Somebody will probably find one too. LOL. I'll see if I can come up with one and save them all that trouble.



Now, Spike you know we would never do anything like that.


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Not! If that cylinder came out of a new 372xp it would shut the site down with stihl lover activity. You guys love to talk about husky like they're cheaply made.




Not so, I showed a 372 with a defective crankcase right out the box, very few had much to say about that, they were kinda quiet and shy, oppppps I forget, this thread in on Stihl so here they are licking their chops, gotta love it,LOL


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

That's because Stihl *is *#1 and we expect more out of them than this. Also, this looks to be more of a trend than simply a defect.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Not so, I showed a 372 with a defective crankcase right out the box, very few had much to say about that, they were kinda quiet and shy, oppppps I forget, this thread in on Stihl so here they are licking their chops, gotta love it,LOL



And to think I never gave that saw a chance to pee all over my jeans, I'll run the famous 372 next time.







Not, LOL.


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## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

I am not getting too excited about one bad cylinder, but the damning fact here is that Stihl's management thought it a good idea to move the production of this part in house, and somehow at least this one part made it into a pro saw. Moves like this are ones that can really kill a good company. I hope this is either a fluke or the big boys at Stihl see the error of their ways soon.


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## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> I am not getting too excited about one bad cylinder, but the damning fact here is that Stihl's management thought it a good idea to move the production of this part in house, and somehow at least this one part made it into a pro saw. Moves like this are ones that can really kill a good company. I hope this is either a fluke or the big boys at Stihl see the error of their ways soon.



Did you miss the link where Timberwolf is reporting the same inferior quality in the 460 and 660?


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> That's because Stihl *is *#1 and we expect more out of them than this. Also, this looks to be more of a trend than simply a defect.



Aww so that changes the fact that I got a screwed up Husky out the box and that makes it ok. Your saying thats the kinda stuff were suppose to expect from Husky since they aren't No.1, okkkkkkkkk, makes sense to me,LOLOL


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## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Can someone else confirm this, not that I doubt you AZLOGGER. *I'd just like to nail this down before I start blabbing that Stihl is putting China crap cylinders on their pro saws*, including at least the 260, 460, and 660.



Brad,

Too late bud. Check your post at 1:12 PM EST.



blsnelling said:


> *Crappy Stihl Cylinder - Looks like ChiCom Garbage!!! *
> 
> So much for Stihl quality ehh? Check out this crap I found in a brand new MS260! The piston is marked Mahle and looks good. The cylinder is only marked Stihl. What are they doing? Outsourcing this crap to China?! Sure looks like it. So much for bashing the BB kits and hold up Stihl as an example. At least Husky is stihl using Mahle cylinders on their pro saws that I've seen.



?

Joat


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Aww so that changes the fact that I got a screwed up Husky out the box and that makes it ok. Your saying thats the kinda stuff were suppose to expect from Husky since they aren't No.1, okkkkkkkkk, makes sense to me,LOLOL



Nope. Not ok at all. But that looks to have been a one time thing.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> Too late bud. Check your post at 1:12 PM EST.
> 
> ...



You make a valid point. But if they're made by Zama in China, then that's the cold hard facts.


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Not so, I showed a 372 with a defective crankcase right out the box, very few had much to say about that, they were kinda quiet and shy, oppppps I forget, this thread in on Stihl so here they are licking their chops, gotta love it,LOL



Haha, you prove my point perfectly. Doesn't that particular saw even have a funny nickname that is repeatedly mentioned here? Drippy or something lol? Yeah, you guys totally let that go......(not, that is fun to say)

And.....this cylinder is the product of a decision that Stihl made, not just a defective part.


----------



## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

Uh oh, isn't this SO painful....Like a stake in the heart...Gotta run now, by the time I get back there will probably be 7 more pages of  and excuses.

Sure appears Stihl is cutting corners....Looks like greed....Guilty until proven innocent! 

Put a fork in 'em!


----------



## Nitroman (May 7, 2009)

It is only one cylinder.

Could have been the 1rst of the month, and a Monday to boot, training a new casting tech.

Could have been late afternoon on a Friday and the mold casters were in a hurry to fill their quota.

It is only one cylinder.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Nitroman said:


> It is only one cylinder.
> 
> Could have been the 1rst of the month, and a Monday to boot, training a new casting tech.
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter if it's only one, the Stihl bashers are going to run with it.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Not so, I showed a 372 with a defective crankcase right out the box, very few had much to say about that, they were kinda quiet and shy, oppppps I forget, this thread in on Stihl so here they are licking their chops, gotta love it,LOL



Mark my words. 50 years. Of course, 50 years may be conservative.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Doesn't matter if it's only one, the Stihl bashers are going to run with it.



Unless I'm mistaken, Brad has reports of 3.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, Brad has reports of 3.



And the other two coming from the most reputable Brian, aka Timberwolf. Brian knows his stuff and both the 460 and 660 were current production saws with "Stihl" cylinders.


----------



## Sawdustmaker (May 7, 2009)

Sling'r has report seeing some bad stihl jugs as well


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

This thread has caused me to start looking for that fallout shelter we built in the sixties. Dang, wish we hadn't cut down that apple tree. Where was that thing?

Later .........


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, Brad has reports of 3.



That's fine also, 3 out of 3 million, is that a good ratio?

:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Sawdustmaker said:


> Sling'r has report seeing some bad stihl jugs as well



Uh oh. I guess I missed that.


----------



## Nitroman (May 7, 2009)

Ok, so the quality isn't up to what was produced in past years. Spank me.

If you look into the ports of a Ski-Doo snowmachine cylinder, it looks really nice, nicer than the old Stihl pics I've seen. Then you look into a Polaris Fugi-engined (Fugi Heavy Industries), snowmachine. Big difference. Both machines run like crazy though.

Haven't seen a Cat cylinder yet.


----------



## cuttinstuff (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> That's fine also, 3 out of 3 million, is that a good ratio?
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:


Are you sure the other 2,999,997 were good ones. Brad get busy you got a lot of work ahead.


----------



## Jacob J. (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You make a valid point. But if they're made by Zama in China, then that's the cold hard facts.



Zama doesn't make cylinders and pistons as far as I know. I have the master catalog for Europe/Asia from 2007 and there's no pistons/cylinders available in it.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Haha, you prove my point perfectly. Doesn't that particular saw even have a funny nickname that is repeatedly mentioned here? Drippy or something lol? Yeah, you guys totally let that go......(not, that is fun to say)
> 
> And.....this cylinder is the product of a decision that Stihl made, not just a defective part.



Blackcatbone putting the beat down on the steal team.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Nope. Not ok at all. But that looks to have been a one time thing.




Fair enuff, now that I set ya up I gotta ask ya. Brad if you had bought that 372 I got and found that screwed up crankcase like I did, hidden just like that cylinder your showing, would you have started a thread entittled Crappy Husky Crankcase-Looks Like ChiCom Garbage, yes or no. If yes then I shall go home, get me some pics of it and start me a good thread too,LOL

(sorry Brad, I couldn't resist)


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

Nitroman said:


> It is only one cylinder.
> 
> Could have been the 1rst of the month, and a Monday to boot, training a new casting tech.
> 
> ...



Ask treeslinger what he's seen in steals cylinders as of late.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Doesn't matter if it's only one, the Stihl bashers are going to run with it.



You forgot timberwolfs thats 2


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

*Interesting...*

*Chicom junk.....*


Interesting that you use that term in the title of a thread about a Stihl cylinder, yet you fail to use that term in your thread about a 361BB cylinder that you got for free, The said BB cylinder have cylindricity problems pointed out by you.

It is so easy for those that have never been involved in manufactring to pass judgement on quality. 

Brad, have you confirmed that the cylinder makes measurably less power than a Mahle cylinder, or confirmed with a flowbench that the casting marks cause measurably less flow?

If you were manufacturing saws, would you pour a great deal of capital into a model that will soon be unsellable in your largest market?

Have you stopped to think that maybe Mahle's unit price was to high to keep the MS260 at the price point Stihl needs? 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the appearance is not top level, but it is a tool, not a work of art. 

Maybe you should buy the book Stihl: From an Idea to a World Brand to discover some of the obstacles Stihl has overcome to get where they are.

This thread has generated 5 pages in two hours so I would say your main objective is met.

I wonder though, can you define the root cause of the "crappy cylinder"?

What is your short term and long term countermeasure?

Maybe you will do an FMEA?

If I remember correctly, manufacturing is not your field of expertise, so maybe we should view your judgement as that of a layman.


Think about this Brad, You have built yourself a mighty big soapbox here on AS, So you may want to take care with what you say.



John Given


.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> That's fine also, 3 out of 3 million, is that a good ratio?
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:


I'd say it certainly calls into question the quality control, wouldn't you? What are the chances that those 3 are the only bad ones, considering the nature of the defects?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> That's fine also, 3 out of 3 million, is that a good ratio?
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:



Close but no cigar, that's 3 that has been exposed out of 40,000,000 plus so far, not bad, what % is that, something like .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003%, not too shabby,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Close but no cigar, that's 3 that has been exposed out of 40,000,000 plus so far, not bad, what % is that, something like .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003%, not too shabby,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Funny, I didn't see you calculating percentages on "drippy." Why is that?


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Funny, I didn't see you calculating percentages on "drippy." Why is that?



Everyone giving Old Thall the beat down.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> You forgot timberwolfs thats 2



Don't worry Booker, I'm on the up and up, I included Timbers in my count. Did you include Stihl's 40,000,000 plus sold in you count,LOLOLOL

You make sure to come over to my Husky crankcase thread later on Booker, ya hear, don't be late,LOL


Hot dayummmm I love a thread like this,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Jacob J. (May 7, 2009)

All of the major brands have been cutting corners, sacrificing quality for profit, and shipping units with defective cases, cylinders, pistons, and carburetors for some time now. Mahle has made junk, Gilardoni has made junk, and Tecomec has made junk. It's an undercurrent of modern corporate culture to cost more and produce less.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Everyone giving Old Thall the beat down.



Beat down, I'm laffing my butt off, look up and read ole boy,hehe


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Don't worry Booker, I'm on the up and up, I included Timbers in my count. Did you include Stihl's 40,000,000 plus sold in you count,LOLOLOL
> 
> You make sure to come over to my Husky crankcase thread later on Booker, ya hear, don't be late,LOL
> 
> ...



O that reminds me of the other guys reported 17000 Thats 17002


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Funny, I didn't see you calculating percentages on "drippy." Why is that?



Find out how many saws Husky has sold Space and I'll be happy to. $500.00 says you won't find out, ya game???


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Beat down, I'm laffing my butt off, look up and read ole boy,hehe



I don't even have to enter in the conversation anymore. The Champ is no more. You remind me of ali in his last fight. LOL


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Find out how many saws Husky has sold Space and I'll be happy to. $500.00 says you won't find out, ya game???



That's easy--I know it off the top of my head. It's 40,000,001.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> O that reminds me of the other guys reported 17000 Thats 17002



17000 more, ok. Lets see here, put that there, carry this, subtract that, ok Booker I got the %

.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000017003.

Dayumm still not bad,LOLOL


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> *
> Brad, have you confirmed that the cylinder makes measurably less power than a Mahle cylinder, or confirmed with a flowbench that the casting marks cause measurably less flow?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I agree that the appearance is not top level, but it is a tool, not a work of art.
> ...


*


That is a shoddily made cylinder. Stihl sell at a top price, because they are supposed to be top quality, as are Husky. That sort of casting is atrocious, I could do better with a forge in the back garden and a brake hone to "perfect" the bore.
Here's hoping it was a bad run that will be remedied. My $100 new chinky saw has a better looking cylinder than that!
Think I'll stick to buying OLD Stihls...*


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> That's easy--I know it off the top of my head. It's 40,000,001.



Your seeing Woodies dream, get out of his head,LOLOLOLOL


----------



## cuttinstuff (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> *Chicom junk.....*
> 
> 
> Interesting that you use that term in the title of a thread about a Stihl cylinder, yet you fail to use that term in your thread about a 361BB cylinder that you got for free, The said BB cylinder have cylindricity problems pointed out by you.
> ...



Some valid points here and much to ponder. However if Stihl cannot put a decent cylinder on an outdated 50cc saw selling for $500.00 then maybe they need to pull the 260 from the market until they have a competitive replacement.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> O that reminds me of the other guys reported 17000 Thats 17002



Ok, 17,200 in 100,000,000,000,000 cylinders, so that is what? the size of a flea on your stinkin' dog arse?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> That is a shoddily made cylinder. Stihl sell at a top price, because they are supposed to be top quality, as are Husky. That sort of casting is atrocious, I could do better with a forge in the back garden and a brake hone to "perfect" the bore.
> Here's hoping it was a bad run that will be remedied. My $100 new chinky saw has a better looking cylinder than that!
> Think I'll stick to buying OLD Stihls...



That is the opinion of most people that have no experience in manufacturing...


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

Boy this sure is a popular thread. 37 people on it right now. I guess I'll be staying up late tonight. It will be even better tonight after I have a few beers. 


OK fellas, I just checked all my saws. Got about 80 Huskys and Jonnys in stock. I spent the last couple of hours pulling the cylinders off of every single saw. And I'm happy to report that every last one of them is absolutely perfect!! 

This wouldn't happen to stihl if they used Kryptonite like Jonsered does.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

My my my. This at a time when Stihl has been bragging about profits and expansion. The direction this portends is rather undesirable methinks.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> 17000 more, ok. Lets see here, put that there, carry this, subtract that, ok Booker I got the %
> 
> .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000017003.
> 
> Dayumm still not bad,LOLOL



Ya just like steal the he&& with those people.


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> That is the opinion of most people that have no experience in manufacturing...



I'm a chartered mechanical design engineer, with considerable experience in manufacturing...


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> That is the opinion of most people that have no experience in manufacturing...



Do you not find it to be an elitist, snobbish attitude to tell the hard working, saw using man he's not qualified to know junk when he sees it?


----------



## Jacob J. (May 7, 2009)

Clearly the only answer to all of this is armed revolution in the streets...


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> This wouldn't happen to stihl if they used Kryptonite like Jonsered does.



I'm sure we all know Jred gets the best 10% of all the cylinders casted, the other 90% go on the pullon's and huskies.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Ok, 17,200 in 100,000,000,000,000 cylinders, so that is what? the size of a flea on your stinkin' dog arse?



You can talk about my wife just dont talk about my dog. And no its about the size of your manhood so you decide. LOLOLOLOLOLO


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

cuttinstuff said:


> Some valid points here and much to ponder. However if Stihl cannot put a decent cylinder on an outdated 50cc saw selling for $500.00 then maybe they need to pull the 260 from the market until they have a competitive replacement.



How is the cylinder not decent?

If the saw makes the advertised amount of power, and lasts the expected number of hours, then the cylinder has done what was required of it.

It is all so simple for those that do not have millions invested in a business...


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Do you not find it to be an elitist, snobbish attitude to tell the hard working, saw using man he's not qualified to know junk when he sees it?



I worked a blue collar job today to earn a living, did you?


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> How is the cylinder not decent?
> 
> If the saw makes the advertised amount of power, and lasts the expected number of hours, then the cylinder has done what was required of it.
> 
> It is all so simple for those that do not have millions invested in a business...



It is all so simple to those for whom $500 is not a substantial purchase upon which their livelihood depends..


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> I'm a chartered mechanical design engineer, with considerable experience in manufacturing...



Then please supply an acceptable coutermeasure...


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> I worked a blue collar job today to earn a living, did you?


Answer my question first.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> It is all so simple to those for whom $500 is not a substantial purchase upon which their livelihood depends..



My paycheck has depended on Stihl ***, has yours?


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Interestingly, there are two threads at the top now. One laments the declining quality of Stihl. The other is praising the Poulan saw. Whoda thunk it?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> How is the cylinder not decent?
> 
> If the saw makes the advertised amount of power, and lasts the expected number of hours, then the cylinder has done what was required of it.
> 
> It is all so simple for those that do not have millions invested in a business...



I agree, while those casts don't look good, I'm sure it preforms well and had to for it to leave the plant. The chip is the only thing that jumps out at me, maybe it could chip at a higher place in the cylinder as the saw gets more hours. Then again, it could go 2500 hours and be fine. I got 7 026 cylinders here that look great and 4 are used, some have a little flashing that could be cleaned up but I'll run 'em like they are when the time comes.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Do you not find it to be an elitist, snobbish attitude to tell the hard working, saw using man he's not qualified to know junk when he sees it?



I would find it that way.

Please define junk.


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Then please supply an acceptable coutermeasure...




I share the same credentials as Patrick, so I'll give it a crack.

It would have been prudent to not move the production away from Mahle until the in-house process was refined enough to produce a cylinder of similar quality.

The "countermeasure" that you speak of in this case at minimum would be physical inspection and sorting. The chip at the top of the jug should have rejected the part and it should have been reworked or scrapped.

I don't know enough about their process and expectations to know for sure if the other attributes are acceptable to Stihl.


----------



## cuttinstuff (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> How is the cylinder not decent?
> 
> If the saw makes the advertised amount of power, and lasts the expected number of hours, then the cylinder has done what was required of it.
> 
> It is all so simple for those that do not have millions invested in a business...



Perhaps. I am just an old, ex-steel mill worker, and if I lived this life 10 times over would never have the millions you speak of. 
However, the millions you speak of are for nothing if you cannot supply the common man like myself with a quality product at a decent price.
Perhaps cut back a little on advertising and use the extra money for a decent cylinder on an already over priced saw.
By the way, a 260 is on my list to buy, been wanting one for a while. No brand loyalty here.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Boy this sure is a popular thread. 37 people on it right now. I guess I'll be staying up late tonight. It will be even better tonight after I have a few beers.
> 
> 
> OK fellas, I just checked all my saws. Got about 80 Huskys and Jonnys in stock. I spent the last couple of hours pulling the cylinders off of every single saw. And I'm happy to report that every last one of them is absolutely perfect!!
> ...




80 and all good, man your lucky. I only got 45 Stihl's and they are all perfect, hey guess I'm lucky too,hehe Hey wait a minute your a Husky dealer, what about my crankcase buddy, should I write a book or just have fun with it like I always have,LOLOL


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Then please supply an acceptable coutermeasure...



An acceptable countermeasure? Quality control. Those cylinders are trash. Make them, cast them, machine them or plate them elsewhere. 
Where I work, if something with that sort of quality appeared, the whole lot would be sent back. Do us a proper batch. If they can't, then change suppliers. 
The Chinese can produce quality stuff if they are paid for it. It seems in this case, either Stihl have gone cheap and nasty, or their QC has gone to sh#t.


----------



## PB (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Close but no cigar, that's 3 that has been exposed out of 40,000,000 plus so far, not bad, what % is that, something like .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003%, not too shabby,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Who taught you how to do math? 3 of 40,000,000 is 0.000000075%.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> I share the same credentials as Patrick, so I'll give it a crack.
> 
> It would have been prudent to not move the production away from Mahle until the in-house process was refined enough to produce a cylinder of similar quality.
> 
> ...



Do we know all the circumstances between Stihl and Mahle?



The chip is at the bottom of the cylinder, in a place that has no effect on the output of the saw.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Who taught you how to do math? 3% of 40,000,000 is 0.000000075.



Who taught you math, 3 out of 40,000,000 is not 3%, is it or is it, hahaha


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> An acceptable countermeasure? Quality control. Those cylinders are trash. Make them, cast them, machine them or plate them elsewhere.
> Where I work, if something with that sort of quality appeared, the whole lot would be sent back. Do us a proper batch. If they can't, then change suppliers.
> The Chinese can produce quality stuff if they are paid for it. It seems in this case, either Stihl have gone cheap and nasty, or their QC has gone to sh#t.



Why is the cylinder trash?

What is the defect?


----------



## PB (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Boy this sure is a popular thread. 37 people on it right now. I guess I'll be staying up late tonight. It will be even better tonight after I have a few beers.
> 
> 
> OK fellas, I just checked all my saws. Got about 80 Huskys and Jonnys in stock. I spent the last couple of hours pulling the cylinders off of every single saw. And I'm happy to report that every last one of them is absolutely perfect!!
> ...



I picked the right horse then.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Awww mannnn. This thread has me a touch concerned.

There's a couple of saws on the shelf.

The 440 has an MD number of 0605
The 660 has an MD number of 0708

Should I sell those things right away? 
Especially before it gets out that they are junk?


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> 80 and all good, man your lucky. I only got 45 Stihl's and they are all perfect, hey guess I'm lucky too,hehe Hey wait a minute your a Husky dealer, what about my crankcase buddy, should I write a book or just have fun with it like I always have,LOLOL



Hey don't you worry about that crankcase anymore Tommy. Husky came out with a nice line of oil proof chaps for them leakers.


----------



## PB (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Who taught you math, 3 out of 40,000,000 is not 3%, is it or is it, hahaha



I can do math, just can't put a % in the right place. LOL!!


----------



## landyboy (May 7, 2009)

Cosmetically there is a lot wrong with the cylinder, however, we are enthusiasts and as such examine every fine detail.
To a pro buying x amount of pro saws a year and never taking the covers off, if it gives the stated amount of power and lasts the usual length of time then its a good saw.
I would suspect Stihll, like most other businesses, are looking to source parts cheaper in the present economic climate to maintain their price point and remain competitive.
I would guess that the criteria for the cylinder would be:
Power:check
longevity:check

Everything else is not important. It has a lifespan and it satisfies it.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Hey don't you worry about that crankcase anymore Tommy. Husky came out with a nice line of oil proof chaps for them leakers.



Really, well good for them. I'll cease with writing the book then and just hang around here and have alittle fun,


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Why is the cylinder trash?
> 
> What is the defect?



Trash as in poorly made, cheaply cast cylinders. If I buy a Stihl product, I don't expect it to look like it was hand-beaten by a 13 year old girl in an Indian sweatshop. I expect quality. That cylinder is not good quality, it is poor quality. My 041 is 33 years old, and I can see the quality in the build. Likewise my 020T. 
This one? Not so much.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

landyboy said:


> Cosmetically there is a lot wrong with the cylinder, however, we are enthusiasts and as such examine every fine detail.
> To a pro buying x amount of pro saws a year and never taking the covers off, if it gives the stated amount of power and lasts the usual length of time then its a good saw.
> I would suspect Stihll, like most other businesses, are looking to source parts cheaper in the present economic climate to maintain their price point and remain competitive.
> I would guess that the criteria for the cylinder would be:
> ...



Perfect...


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

landyboy said:


> Cosmetically there is a lot wrong with the cylinder, however, we are enthusiasts and as such examine every fine detail.
> To a pro buying x amount of pro saws a year and never taking the covers off, if it gives the stated amount of power and lasts the usual length of time then its a good saw.
> I would suspect Stihll, like most other businesses, are looking to source parts cheaper in the present economic climate to maintain their price point and remain competitive.
> I would guess that the criteria for the cylinder would be:
> ...



Where did you come from with logic like that,


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Do we know all the circumstances between Stihl and Mahle?
> 
> 
> 
> The chip is at the bottom of the cylinder, in a place that has no effect on the output of the saw.



Of course we don't know ALL the circumstances between two corporations, but is that the issue? 

The chip is indicative of an accident, poor plating adhesion, and/or lower standards of quality control compared to previous parts. I don't know if it would have an effect down the road, and you don't either. It was not design intent, and would have to be seen as undesireable, so either it squeaked by or standards are now lower than before. If you don't care and would accept that on your saw, that's ok with me.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> Trash as in poorly made, cheaply cast cylinders. If I buy a Stihl product, I don't expect it to look like it was hand-beaten by a 13 year old girl in an Indian sweatshop. I expect quality. That cylinder is not good quality, it is poor quality. My 041 is 33 years old, and I can see the quality in the build. Likewise my 020T.
> This one? Not so much.



You speak of appearance, how is the function defective?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> Trash as in poorly made, cheaply cast cylinders. If I buy a Stihl product, I don't expect it to look like it was hand-beaten by a 13 year old girl in an Indian sweatshop. I expect quality. That cylinder is not good quality, it is poor quality. My 041 is 33 years old, and I can see the quality in the build. Likewise my 020T.
> This one? Not so much.



Patrick I'm with you 100% except on one thing. I have never sold a saw in which the intent of the buyer was to take it apart and look at the inside of it. If he did so and brought it back he would be outta luck with me. Now one must ask the question here, we all have cars and trucks, how many of us take the engines apart in our brand new set of wheels to see the workmanship in it, none that I know of..


----------



## 7sleeper (May 7, 2009)

Guys what I am more afraid is that all other companies are reading this site and are saying: Hey if Stihl can get away with this so can we!!! We don't need math to find out how quality will be in 1-2 years!

7


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> I can do math, just can't put a % in the right place. LOL!!



Fair enuff, if I need more %'s and calculating done I'll call ya, keep that pencil sharp,hahaha


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Of course we don't know ALL the circumstances between two corporations, but is that the issue?
> 
> The chip is indicative of an accident, poor plating adhesion, and/or lower standards of quality control compared to previous parts. I don't know if it would have an effect down the road, and you don't either. It was not design intent, and would have to be seen as undesireable, so either it squeaked by or standards are now lower than before. If you don't care and would accept that on your saw, that's ok with me.



The cylinder is acceptable to Stihl. They are the ones that would have to pay a warranty claim. If the plating is truly defective then it will most likely fail during the warranty period.

I will be the first to say that the appearance of quality on that cylinder is lower than before, but if it performs acceptably, then the customer got what they paid for.

If this kind of thing is that important, are you going to take apart the transmission in your vehicle, then search internet message boards to find out if what you have is typical?

^^^Thall was posting the same thought while I was typing...


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Patrick I'm with you 100% except on one thing. I have never sold a saw in which the intent of the buyer was to take it apart and look at the inside of it. If he did so and brought it back he would be outta luck with me. Now one must ask the question here, we all have cars and trucks, how many of us take the engines apart in our brand new set of wheels to see the workmanship in it, none that I know of..



You can't see if your cook spits in your hamburger either, and they're not going to let you in the kitchen. Does that make hamburger spit ok?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> You can't see if your cook spits in your hamburger either, and they're not going to let you in the kitchen. Does that make hamburger spit ok?



I bet lawyers get more hamburger spit than all others combined...


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

My next saw will be a Stihl. 




TT


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> You can't see if your cook spits in your hamburger either, and they're not going to let you in the kitchen. Does that make hamburger spit ok?



More like> what we don't know won't hurt us. Now if the spitter had some type of infection and we got sick, that could be a case. All of this thread is really moot, cylinder heads on vehicles have some much worse looking castings. If you want to port them, then it doesn't matter.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> It is so easy for those that have never been involved in manufactring to pass judgement on quality.



I'll never be pregnant, but I bet passing a baby hurts like a biyotch. Does my opinion still count? (Hint: Yes.)



Tzed250 said:


> If you were manufacturing saws, would you pour a great deal of capital into a model that will soon be unsellable in your largest market?



Irrelevant. If you were buying a saw, would you pour a great deal of money into one with a cylinder that chitty?



Tzed250 said:


> Have you stopped to think that maybe Mahle's unit price was to high to keep the MS260 at the price point Stihl needs?



Irrelevant. If Stihl can't build the unit at a cost its selling price will support, it should exit that market, or accept the margin as a loss leader.



Tzed250 said:


> Maybe you should buy the book Stihl: From an Idea to a World Brand to discover some of the obstacles Stihl has overcome to get where they are.



Irrelevant. No one cares what a company has 'overcome.' They care, or should care, about getting a good product at a good price.



Tzed250 said:


> I wonder though, can you define the root cause of the "crappy cylinder"?



Irrelevant. The end consumer doesn't need to know _*why*_ a cylinder sucks, they just need to know *that* it does.



Tzed250 said:


> If I remember correctly, manufacturing is not your field of expertise, so maybe we should view your judgement as that of a layman.



Irrelevant. One need not be an expert in software engineering to know when a piece of software sucks. Spotting the bugs is enough.



.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> My next saw will be a Stihl.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mine too.


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Patrick I'm with you 100% except on one thing. I have never sold a saw in which the intent of the buyer was to take it apart and look at the inside of it. If he did so and brought it back he would be outta luck with me. Now one must ask the question here, we all have cars and trucks, how many of us take the engines apart in our brand new set of wheels to see the workmanship in it, none that I know of..



I do, because I'm a picky type. 
But Brad just bought a cylinder, which was clearly a really bad casting. If I bought a new set of pistons for any of my cars and they were anywhere near that bad, I would be standing at the sales desk throwing them at the spares guy - with some special Tom Hall "Gas'n go" gas and soap flakes mix on them of course.
It's a shoddy cylinder - would you not send it back if Stihl sent you it to put on a customers saw?


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> My next saw will be a Stihl.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





2000ssm6 said:


> Mine too.



Not me. I'm done buying saws....

What a minute, I think I just spotted a good deal. Be right back!:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> I'll never be pregnant, but I bet passing a baby hurts like a biyotch. Does my opinion still count? (Hint: Yes.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will you take apart everything you buy so that you may "judge" the level of quality?


I think not.


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> That is the opinion of most people that have no experience in manufacturing...





PatrickIreland said:


> I'm a chartered mechanical design engineer, with considerable experience in manufacturing...



Ooooohhhh...this is gettin' good!! 



.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> Clearly the only answer to all of this is armed revolution in the streets...



Well I'm definitely gonna want a Husqvarna rifle!! 


.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Some folks will never hear it Brad.... Kudos to you for calling them out. 

This is not a one time defective cylinder it is (as someone has already pointed out) the product of a shift in manufacturing and a trend toward cheaper quality as a result.

I have seen to many to think it's a one time fluke.... you can either choose to see it or turn a blind eye... makes me no nevermind.

Brad is (as labeled by this board) a STIHLHEAD.... I'm sure it was a hard lump to swallow for Brad to make this post as it was for Brian... as it was for me but... it is what it is and it can't anything other than that it is what it is..... I personally am a Stihlhaed at heart also but I got that way by a continued succession of top quality products, my allegiance was earned not given and I will call them like I see them and if this is what I can expect from Stihl in the future..... I will look elsewhere.

I buy my *** for QUALITY period... I don't care what it costs or who makes it, if Stihl wants to keep my business they are going to have to do better than this. If I wanted to buy junk I'd get me a Wildthing and save some money.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> I do, because I'm a picky type.
> But Brad just bought a cylinder, which was clearly a really bad casting. If I bought a new set of pistons for any of my cars and they were anywhere near that bad, I would be standing at the sales desk throwing them at the spares guy - with some special Tom Hall "Gas'n go" gas and soap flakes mix on them of course.
> It's a shoddy cylinder - would you not send it back if Stihl sent you it to put on a customers saw?



Brad bought nothing, please read the whole thread. Brad is posting about another persons cylinder. 

Brad hailed the 361BB cylinder (true Chicom junk with cylindricity issues), and trashes the Stihl cylinder that has no proven functional defects.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Well I'm definitely gonna want a Husqvarna rifle!!
> 
> 
> .



I already have mine...


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> The cylinder is acceptable to Stihl. They are the ones that would have to pay a warranty claim. If the plating is truly defective then it will most likely fail during the warranty period.
> 
> I will be the first to say that the appearance of quality on that cylinder is lower than before, but if it performs acceptably, then the customer got what they paid for.
> 
> If this kind of thing is that important, are you going to take apart the transmission in your vehicle, then search internet message boards to find out if what you have is typical?



I understand your point, and agree about the warranty period. There are plenty of smart people at Stihl and I'd think they've crunched the numbers to assesss the warranty risk in moving production of these parts. But, when a process is uncontrolled and defects are allowed to exist, that is manufacturing culture and problems will most certainly arise from such a culture. I guess we will see!

Known defects are not allowed to exist in the auto industry. If they are at all significant, they become recalls. That cylinder has some machining irregularities. My accord trans had some machining irregularities and I got a new one out of warranty. I didn't even have to take it apart myself


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Brad bought nothing, please read the whole thread. Brad is posting about another persons cylinder.
> 
> Brad hailed the 361BB cylinder (true Chicom junk with cylindricity issues), and trashes the Stihl cylinder that has no proven functional defects.



OK, Brad GOT a cylinder, which at present has no functional defects. It is well below the quality buyers expect from Stihl. 
It may, or may not, exhibit functional defects once it is run in a saw.

It is a low quality part, and that is all it is. Badly casted, badly plated, and it hasn't even been run yet?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> Some folks will never hear it Brad.... Kudos to you for calling them out.
> 
> This is not a one time defective cylinder it is (as someone has already pointed out) the product of a shift in manufacturing and a trend toward cheaper quality as a result.
> 
> ...



Good point but how many here outside of AS is going to take their saw apart to see "bad" castings? That saw could run for 2500 hours, it will be ported anyway. That is no excuse though, although it won't put a dent in Stihl's sales numbers for the mentioned reasons.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> and it hasn't even been run yet?



It's been run, not much though.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> I understand your point, and agree about the warranty period. There are plenty of smart people at Stihl and I'd think they've crunched the numbers to assesss the warranty risk in moving production of these parts. But, when a process is uncontrolled and defects are allowed to exist, that is manufacturing culture and problems will most certainly arise from such a culture. I guess we will see!
> 
> Known defects are not allowed to exist in the auto industry. If they are at all significant, they become recalls. That cylinder has some machining irregularities. My accord trans had some machining irregularities and I got a new one out of warranty. I didn't even have to take it apart myself



You know as well as I do that defects are allowed to exist in the auto industry...they are only fixed when money becomes an issue.


----------



## landyboy (May 7, 2009)

Its simple economics gents. Presumably Stihl sells the bulk of its products to pro`s. A nice looking cylinder means shag all. Paying a hundred more for the priviledge means they`ll go elsewhere.
Its happening everywhere.

A lot of shooters on here. Sako for instance. The 75 was a lot better than the 85, the p94 `finnfire` is superior to the quad.
It just costs more to produce them, price goes up so they sell less units. Drop them from the lineup and make a similar product cheaper, sell the same amount of units.
Stay in business.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> My accord trans had some machining irregularities and I got a new one out of warranty. I didn't even have to take it apart myself



Did that irregularity cause a performance issue?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> OK, Brad GOT a cylinder, which at present has no functional defects. It is well below the quality buyers expect from Stihl.
> It may, or may not, exhibit functional defects once it is run in a saw.
> 
> It is a low quality part, and that is all it is. Badly casted, badly plated, and it hasn't even been run yet?



Please tell me the percentage of Stihl customers that know how to judge quality at this level. 

As I asked, please read the thread, the part has two or more tanks of gas on it, not to mention the tuning run at VB...


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Did that irregularity cause a performance issue?



It didn't for me, but other people had their transmission spontaneously lock up at highway speeds. It was a really small defect too.


----------



## Tree Sling'r (May 7, 2009)

*Dolmar 7900w for sale*


Hehe, crapolla I have been fussing about this for a year or so, but Brad got the pics to prove.
BTW, if not familiar with close up photography -those were great shots. Job Brad.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> It didn't for me, but other people had their transmission spontaneously lock up at highway speeds. It was a really small defect too.



Yup, looks won't get ya a new/reman transmission, has to affect performance...


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> My next saw will be a Stihl.





2000ssm6 said:


> Mine too.



2K, you're next donut would be a stihl if they made 'em.

.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> 2K, you're next donut would be a stihl if they made 'em.
> 
> .



Speaking of which, you left some of my glaze on your chin. Wipe it off friend...


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> Some folks will never hear it Brad.... Kudos to you for calling them out.
> 
> This is not a one time defective cylinder it is (as someone has already pointed out) the product of a shift in manufacturing and a trend toward cheaper quality as a result.
> 
> ...



Good Post


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> If I remember correctly, manufacturing is not your field of expertise, so maybe we should view your judgement as that of a layman.
> 
> 
> Think about this Brad, You have built yourself a mighty big soapbox here on AS, So you may want to take care with what you say.



Points well made and well taken. I agree with you entirely.


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, looks won't get ya a new/reman transmission, has to affect performance...



Well actually for autos it usually has to affect safety. If you choose to buy a POS car (or whatever) they that's on you after the warranty is up.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

I keep reading "did it cause a problem" you tell me???

What is one of the main goals when porting a saw for more performance???

To clean up the casting flaws and smooth out the ports...... those ports look pretty damn ruff to me with a whole lot of casting flaws so to ask "did it cause a problem" I say YES!! There is no way you can tell me that casting like that is not going to have a negative impact on product performance. What the real question is will the guy who just spent $550.00 on that saw know the difference... I say probably not..... does that make it OK????


Did Black Cats tranny cause him any problems.... no

Did it fail on him..... YES!!


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> *Dolmar 7900w for sale*
> 
> 
> Hehe, crapolla I have been fussing about this for a year or so, but Brad got the pics to prove.
> BTW, if not familiar with close up photography -those were great shots. Job Brad.



Dumpmar whats that


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> Clearly the only answer to all of this is armed revolution in the streets...



LOL. Ain't life grand


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 7, 2009)

Tree Sling'r said:


> *Dolmar 7900w for sale*
> 
> 
> Hehe, crapolla I have been fussing about this for a year or so, but Brad got the pics to prove.
> BTW, if not familiar with close up photography -those were great shots. Job Brad.



Hilarious. Giant font was a nice touch.


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Please tell me the percentage of Stihl customers that know how to judge quality at this level.
> 
> As I asked, please read the thread, the part has two or more tanks of gas on it, not to mention the tuning run at VB...




I would guess a very tiny percentage would judge the quality at this level. But this cylinder has had two tanks of gas through it, and is already looking beaten up? Stihl's main market is never going to be the chainsaw enthusiasts, same as Ford's main market is never going to be car/truck enthusiasts.
What I am saying is, Stihl is not supposed to be the "Ford" or "Chevy" of the market, they are meant to, and were, the (Pick the more expensive car of your choice) of the market.
This car/chainsaw manufacturer, has sold a cheaply made, engine/cylinder, which will ruin their reputation if they keep doing it?


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> I would guess a very tiny percentage would judge the quality at this level. But this cylinder has had two tanks of gas through it, and is already looking beaten up? Stihl's main market is never going to be the chainsaw enthusiasts, same as Ford's main market is never going to be car/truck enthusiasts.
> What I am saying is, Stihl is not supposed to be the "Ford" or "Chevy" of the market, they are meant to, and were, the (Pick the more expensive car of your choice) of the market.
> This car/chainsaw manufacturer, has sold a cheaply made, engine/cylinder, which will ruin their reputation if they keep doing it?



Well put.  (still can't rep ya )


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> I would guess a very tiny percentage would judge the quality at this level. But this cylinder has had two tanks of gas through it, and is already looking beaten up? Stihl's main market is never going to be the chainsaw enthusiasts, same as Ford's main market is never going to be car/truck enthusiasts.
> What I am saying is, Stihl is not supposed to be the "Ford" or "Chevy" of the market, they are meant to, and were, the (Pick the more expensive car of your choice) of the market.
> This car/chainsaw manufacturer, has sold a cheaply made, engine/cylinder, which will ruin their reputation if they keep doing it?



I agree 100%

The cylinder is not perfect, and it is not an example of how to do it "the best they know how".

I believe that Stihl sees the end of what started as the 024 in the near future. The cylinder is the minimum that will get the job done. 

The MS441 is Stihl's Flagship saw. I would like to see a close exam of a current 441 top-end, as I believe it would be more inicative of the top level at Stihl.

Stihl's reputation will only be ruined if the parts fail in service, and nothing has been proven to that effect.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Brad hailed the 361BB cylinder (true Chicom junk with cylindricity issues), and trashes the Stihl cylinder that has no proven functional defects.



I pointed out the defects in the BB kit just like I did this one. I don't care what the brand is or who's selling it.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> I keep reading "did it cause a problem" you tell me???
> 
> What is one of the main goals when porting a saw for more performance???
> 
> ...



If the saw makes the target HP then the casting marks have been allowed in the engineering and are part of the system.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> *The MS441 is Stihl's Flagship saw. I would like to see a close exam of a current 441 top-end, as I believe it would be more inicative of the top level at Stihl.
> QUOTE]*
> screwed up the quote so made it bold.
> 
> I hope to get that done in a week or so.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I pointed out the defects in the BB kit just like I did this one. I don't care what the brand is or who's selling it.



But you did not start a thread with an inflammatory title, and the makers name, denouncing the quality. Quite the opposite in fact...

Maybe because it was part of your "hook up"...


----------



## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> If the saw makes the target HP then the casting marks have been allowed in the engineering and are part of the system.



That's *exactly*what I'm afraid of. I'd be a lot more comfortable thinking one slipped by QA than thinking Stihl now considered this acceptable. The fault is in the casting, a machinist can only machine what's there.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> That's *exactly*what I'm afraid of. I'd be a lot more comfortable thinking one slipped by QA than thinking Stihl now considered this acceptable. The fault is in the casting, a machinist can only machine what's there.



If the saw makes the target HP, where is the flaw in the casting?


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> Some folks will never hear it Brad.... Kudos to you for calling them out.
> 
> This is not a one time defective cylinder it is (as someone has already pointed out) the product of a shift in manufacturing and a trend toward cheaper quality as a result.
> 
> ...



Wow Erick. Wish I could put it like that. You hit the nail on the head...several times.

We've settle the question and this is *not *a one time defect but can be expected when buying a new Pro Stihl saw. This is not isolated to the "outdated" 260, but includes the almighty 660 and 460 as well. This is not the quality with which Stihl earned their reputation, neither with the world or myself. They have taught us to expect high quality and demand the price for it. They have dropped their end of the deal.

So you want to know if it hurts performance. I don't care! That does not matter at this point! The end does not justify the means. So do you practice situational ethics as well? What are the defects? I named them all in the first post. Go re-read it. Just because it runs doesn't make it ok. The quality of this cylinder SUCKS!! Period. You cannot deny that. Don't just tell me it still runs.

Let's put this another way. Suppose I bring you in a MS260 with a bad P&C. You order a new OEM P&C for me and this is the one you get. Are you going to put it on my saw? Or are you going to do what I did and raise the flag? Or are you going to enable manufactures to continue the downhill trend to put crap quality like this in their product? My philosophy is, "Do it right, or don't do it at all".


----------



## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> If the saw makes the target HP, where is the flaw in the casting?



you did see the pics right? There was a shift in the casting process. Walls are thinner in some places, thicker in others. The unit is notfunctioning as it was designed While it may not immediately show signs of reduced power, longevity WILL be affected


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Wow Erick. Wish I could put it like that. You hit the nail on the head...several times.
> 
> We've settle the question and this is *not *a one time defect but can be expected when buying a new Pro Stihl saw. This is not isolated to the "outdated" 260, but includes the almighty 660 and 460 as well. This is not the quality with which Stihl earned their reputation, neither with the world or myself. They have taught us to expect high quality and demand the price for it. They have dropped their end of the deal.
> 
> ...



What are the *functional *defects?

How much compression did it have before it was torn down?


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> But you did not start a thread with an inflammatory title, and the makers name, denouncing the quality. Quite the opposite in fact...
> 
> Maybe because it was part of your "hook up"...



That's because the expectations are very different. One has a reputation of problems on this board. The other is touted as the be all end all of quality. And BTW, that 361BB review was the very first dealings I ever had with Baileys and expected nothing in return. That all came after the fact.

TZed, you're fighting an uphill battle against the current. Anyone in their right mind, without alterior motives, will agree.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> How much compression did it have before it was torn down?



I don't know and don't care. That's beside the point.

Would you accept irregular tires, defective leather interior, scrapped up paint on a new Mercedes? You know, it still drives fine! Nothing wrong with that car. They're just trying to maintian profit margins. Stihl is supposed to be the best in the industry.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> What are the *functional *defects?



So is function the only thing that matters? Not in my books. I would hope that anyone I pay to work on anything I own wouldn't feel that way either.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> That's because the expectations are very different. One has a reputation of problems on this board. The other is touted as the be all end all of quality. And BTW, that 361BB review was the very first dealings I ever had with Baileys and expected nothing in return. That all came after the fact.
> 
> TZed, you're fighting an uphill battle against the current. Anyone in their right mind, without alterior motives, will agree.





blsnelling said:


> I don't know and don't care. That's beside the point.
> 
> Would you accept irregular tires, defective leather interior, scrapped up paint on a new Mercedes? Stihl is supposed to be the best in the industry.



I don't follow the current, that is your MO.

Tell me Brad, what is more important, the cylindricity of a bore, or the smoothness of a port?

Why not trash the 361BB with the same zeal that you have the 260 jug?

Stihl is the best, don't fool yourself into thinking QA issues do not exist with the others.


----------



## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

The fan boys can cry all they want about, who's going to see it, who's going to take it apart to look inside....bla, bla, bla!

The outside of that jug also looks like utter crap....Not even remotely close in quality to the (outside) of the jugs on my Dolmars....Let alone the inside.

Sugar coat it all ya want fellows....It's a hunk of crap and ya know it....Now lets just man-up and admit it.

Kudos to the gentleman, who are Stihl guys but can admit it, they wouldn't want it on their saw.....It shows integrity. 

If your pricing structure is white collar, your parts quality sure as hell shouldn't be blue collar.....Fit and finish is considered a quality standard in manufacturing, that most companies are judged by....Why all of a sudden is it not relevant for Stihl?


----------



## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Stihl is the best



Well, if that jug is the "best" someone has drank way too much kool-aid.


----------



## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> I don't follow the current, that is your MO.
> 
> Tell me Brad, what is more important, the cylindricity of a bore, or the smoothness of a port?
> 
> ...



what's with the personal attack? Brad and the work he's done have promoted Stihl on this board more than just about anyone.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

> Tell me Brad, what is more important, the cylindricity of a bore, or the smoothness of a port?


I guess I failed to mention the fact that the piston sometimes sticks in the bore when you drop it in the cylinder. Did you not notice all the wear marks in the cylinder, especially for so little run time?



> Why not trash the 361BB with the same zeal that you have the 260 jug?


I already answered that.



> Stihl is the best, don't fool yourself into thinking QA issues do not exist with the others.


You better check out your competitors.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

This just goes to show that Stihl could take a dried up goat turd, slap some orange and yellow paint on it, set it on fire and burn a tree in two with it, call it a bio chainsaw, and there are people who would buy into it.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> what's with the personal attack? Brad and the work he's done have promoted Stihl on this board more than just about anyone.



No personal attack.

My posts are my opinion of the situation.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

A Wildthing is "functional" a Homelite Ranger is "functional" are they good quality???



Why is that?????


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 7, 2009)

Tzed, you are being a typical "Why does it matter if it works OK now?" person.
It might work fine now, hell it might have 300psi compression and eat children through the intake - but that cylinder is WRONG. It's cheaply made. It's badly made. It's junk, as far as I am concerned - not "broken" junk, but just junk.

How much more would it take for Stihl to cast a decent cylinder? Not a lot.
I used to design water pumps many years ago, and if a casting like that came to me I would have stopped work, gone down to the floor, and find out why they were ending up like trash pumps - designed to pump stones, and every other kind of trash out of underground water tanks. They needed twice the horsepower of any other pumps.
I don't let stuff like that slip by, because I am proud of what I design. And Stihl are, or they should be. 
If Stihl are letting stuff like that cylinder pass QC - well, they will go down the crapper.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> This just goes to show that Stihl could take a dried up goat turd, slap some orange and yellow paint on it, set it on fire and burn a tree in two with it, call it a bio chainsaw, and there are people who would buy into it.



Exactly! I've been preaching that with the little saws for months now.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> No personal attack.
> 
> My posts are my opinion of the situation.



I'll back off a little myself. I don't want this to turn into a big fight and make enemies over it. Let's keep this conversation lively, but don't take me personal, please.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Familiar with the term projecting, as it pertains to psychology?
> 
> 
> I guess I failed to mention the fact that the piston sometimes sticks in the bore when you drop it in the cylinder. Did you not notice all the wear marks in the cylinder, especially for so little run time?
> ...



Not projecting...LOL

Please tell us the clearance between the piston and cyclinder.

I cut metal every day Brad, not as a hobby, as a living.

I have certifications in the field. 

Work in a production facility for any length of time and you will see different.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> You can't see if your cook spits in your hamburger either, and they're not going to let you in the kitchen. Does that make hamburger spit ok?



It does not so one begs the question, do you take apart your hamburger and inspect it for spit, or do you just eat the dayumm thing. Do you go to the slaughter house to find out what pig became your pork chop checking to see if it had swine flu,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Not projecting...LOL
> 
> Please tell us the clearance between the piston and cyclinder.
> 
> ...



I would do that if I still had it here. I'm curious myself now because I'm suspecting it's quite tight.

I took the P&C and a copy of the purchase receipt and warranty card down to my dealer. He agreed that it was crappy and will be showing it to the rep. Unfortunately, he said it would likely be 2-4 weeks before they would see him again.

I'll try to remember to take a caliper with me when I'm down there tomorrow.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> It does not so one begs the question, do you take apart your hamburger and inspect it for spit, or do you just eat the dayumm thing. Do you go to the slaughter house to find out what pig became your pork chop checking to see if it had swine flu,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



No, because I have faith in my food suppliers. If, however, I had a report of my food supplier spitting in hamburgers, you can bet your arse they wouldn't be my food supplier any more. Can you tell me why?


----------



## Northwind (May 7, 2009)

I'm just posting this so I can remember what page I left off on.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I'll back off a little myself. I don't want this to turn into a big fight and make enemies over it. Let's keep this conversation lively, but don't take me personal, please.



This is not personal.

I admire your ability in restoration, and read your threads about restoration with great interest and admiration. 

I am calling it like I see it.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

northwind said:


> i'm just posting this so i can remember what page i left off on.



lol


----------



## Zodiac45 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Wow Erick. Wish I could put it like that. You hit the nail on the head...several times.
> 
> We've settle the question and this is *not *a one time defect but can be expected when buying a new Pro Stihl saw. This is not isolated to the "outdated" 260, but includes the almighty 660 and 460 as well. This is not the quality with which Stihl earned their reputation, neither with the world or myself. They have taught us to expect high quality and demand the price for it. They have dropped their end of the deal.
> 
> ...



Yep exactly right Brad. As I read this thread, there was no bashing intended except what's due regarding the "corporate decisions" being made by said company. You're only pointing put what the pix obviously show. Some people are diehards, blinded by some sense of misdirected loyalty to a brand. It's kind of silly. No matter the brand, that cyl is a piece of crap period. I don't care what it runs like, that's garbage (the casting line is laughable) and just not something one would expect on a "Pro" saw in that price range.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I would do that if I still had it here. I'm curious myself now because I'm suspecting it's quite tight.
> 
> I took the P&C and a copy of the purchase receipt and warranty card down to my dealer. He agreed that it was crappy and will be showing it to the rep. Unfortunately, he said it would likely be 2-4 weeks before they would see him again.
> 
> I'll try to remember to take a caliper with me when I'm down there tomorrow.



Your effort would be appreciated. 

To measure the clearance however, you will need a dial bore guage to measure the bore, and a micrometer to measure the piston. 

A caliper does not have the required accuracy to measure those points.

If the clearance is not within spec, then the cylinder is truly defective, 
aka "crappy"...


----------



## Taxmantoo (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Known defects are not allowed to exist in the auto industry. If they are at all significant, they become recalls.



I think of three things when you say that, BCB. 

1. GM/Saturn put antifreeze in a few cars that were supposed to have DexCool in them. The 'cure' was sending the cars to the crusher, when anybody with half a brain would drain the coolant, flush with water, and refill with DeathCool. 

2. Also in the 1990s, Ford made a bunch of FWD V6s with a defective head casting that warped like mad. They resisted doing anything except for fixing those with unexpired warranties until it looked like the feds were going to step in with a government recall. This would be about six years after the last car with that engine rolled off the line. Ford did a voluntary policy adjustment and the recall didn't happen. If your heads warped and you lost all your coolant during the brief period of the policy adjustment, and if your 6-12 year old car had less than 100,000 miles on it, Ford would fix it. Mine went during the proper timeframe, but after 139,000 gentle highway miles. I fixed it myself. 

3. 2001-2003 cars with GM's 2.2L "Ecotec" engine did not deliver adequate oil to the timing chain at low rpms. The people that were affected were mainly those who sat idling in traffic a lot, or those who drove gently and normally got very long lifespans from their engines. In 2003 GM laid it all out in a TSB explaining why the timing chain kits came with a replacement oil metering orifice and mandating that it be installed along with the new chain, guides, valves, and whatever else got busted, all at customer expense if the engine was no longer under warranty. No preventative work to be done on cars which hadn't yet swallowed their valvetrain. 2004 model year cars were built using the new oil nozzle. 
The dealers told the customers 'if you'd changed your oil when you were supposed to, your timing chain wouldn't have broken at 50,000 miles, now it's going to cost you $3k for abusing your car", and then quietly installed the redesigned part.



BlackCatBone said:


> Well actually for autos it usually has to affect safety. If you choose to buy a POS car (or whatever) they that's on you after the warranty is up.



Yes, government recalls are for perceived safety defects. Reliability defects depend on the integrity of the business you're dealing with.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> Tzed, you are being a typical "Why does it matter if it works OK now?" person.
> It might work fine now, hell it might have 300psi compression and eat children through the intake - but that cylinder is WRONG. It's cheaply made. It's badly made. It's junk, as far as I am concerned - not "broken" junk, but just junk.
> 
> How much more would it take for Stihl to cast a decent cylinder? Not a lot.
> ...




You are typical....

What do you know? I make parts for pumps like that, among other things. I make parts that conform to the drawings that I am given. You are the guy that sets the tolerances, but I am the guy that _holds_ them....


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Dexcool sold alot of intake jobs, engines, and various cooling system componets. That stuff *HAS* to be flushed every 30K miles or else! Our 3 that "used" dexcool are now on green and have been that way since new.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> This just goes to show that Stihl could take a dried up goat turd, slap some orange and yellow paint on it, set it on fire and burn a tree in two with it, call it a bio chainsaw, and there are people who would buy into it.




Start saving your money, 2K...



.


----------



## rxe (May 7, 2009)

> The cylinder is not perfect, and it is not an example of how to do it "the best they know how".



As someone who has just laid down £430 (that about 650 of your dollars) for a new 260...I damn well expect a saw build "the best they know how". That's why I buy Stihl, that's why I've always bought Stihl, and the thing that worries me a bit is that I may not want to buy Stihl in the future. 

I'm almost tempted to take my brand new 260 and pull the jug off, but I think I'll limit myself to looking at the outside of the casting for the Mahle logo - this saw will probably be of European origin.

It is just like the car business. I worked on a friends 6 litre Merc from the 1960s, and it was a thing of beauty. Every part engineered to perfection, and as long as it was serviced regularly, it would probably go on forever. Modern Mercs? Heaps of thrown together junk. Vauxhall (GM to you guys) are probably more reliable, and at least they're cheap to fix when it does break. 

Given the crappiness of what was in the photos, it would probably be worth running a micrometer over the rest of it. 

And yes, I get the "business reality". If Stihl are competing with £100 Mcullochs in box stores, then they need to compete. It's just depressing to think that this might represent the start of a slide into mediocrity.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Start saving your money, 2K...
> 
> 
> 
> .



I'll buy it, you eat it? Turds seem to fall from your mouth anyway, might as well shove one back in.


----------



## whitedogone (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> No, because I have faith in my food suppliers. If, however, I had a report of my food supplier spitting in hamburgers, you can bet your arse they wouldn't be my food supplier any more. Can you tell me why?



I guess you didn't read 'bout that fella in MO @KFC that was adding a little extra cream to the coleslaw.


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## wigglesworth (May 7, 2009)

I inspected my hamburger for spit and found a stihl cylinder.....it was junk though


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## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> The MS441 is Stihl's Flagship saw. I would like to see a close exam of a current 441 top-end, as I believe it would be more inicative of the top level at Stihl.



How would that matter? Stihl is selling 260s for $500, which is more than Husky/Jred/Dolmar/etc. sell their 50 cc saws for. And the 260 is _*significantly outperformed *_by all others in that class.

The expectation of the consumer is that they are paying more for quality. Stihl is even labeling it as 'professional-grade.'

I would submit that, if this is indicative of the quality they are getting...they are getting robbed.


.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

wigglesworth said:


> I inspected my hamburger for spit and found a stihl cylinder.....it was junk though







.


----------



## Evan (May 7, 2009)

or stihl doesnt give flyn shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit and the 20% of the people who crack a saw open will be a wash over what there savn on the cheap casting. get the old stuff and keep it running because this is just going to get worse

maybe bad economic times caused stihl to go cheaper to stay afoat, could be possibilty


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> I do, because I'm a picky type.
> But Brad just bought a cylinder, which was clearly a really bad casting. If I bought a new set of pistons for any of my cars and they were anywhere near that bad, I would be standing at the sales desk throwing them at the spares guy - with some special Tom Hall "Gas'n go" gas and soap flakes mix on them of course.
> It's a shoddy cylinder - would you not send it back if Stihl sent you it to put on a customers saw?



I would not put that cylinder on a saw as a replacement part. Not becuase of all the things Brad pointed out but because of whether it fits my standards which are much different than a modder. I would also not replace it at warranty merely because the saw was taken apart to be modded. Thats part of the reason I asked how it ran. If it ran like a dog compared to other 260's then there is a issue to be resolved. If it ran fine there is no issue to correct. I don't warranty saws that come back with the paint scratched off, sorry but cosmetic does not equal warranty and neither does quality. There has to be a defect in workmanship that alters the performace of the machine. Once again there has been no mention as to how the saw ran so the defects in the cylinder have yet to be proven to alter the performance of the unit, no warranty. Brad may well get a new cylinder as soon as he provides proof of purchase, its my understanding its not his saw, once again no warranty. Going to bat for his customer so he can mod the new cylinder once again ruins the warranty on the new cylinder he wants so no matter which way he goes his chances of getting a new cylinder are slim to none. 


As a matter of fact I had such a case a few years back on a 036 fried. The replacement cylinder came in and was made *not by Stihl but Mahle*. It had flew flaws but the main issue was the sharp edges left around the inside of the exhaust port, apparently it had not been chamfered at all. I was afriad the rings would hang in it. I called and got another that was perfect, no questions asked. Take note as well I did not come on here and start a thread about that Mahle cylinder, one that would have failed in no time flat due to the lack of chamfering around the exhaust port. Thats my work I'm handing back to the customer, not Stihl's, not Mahle's, mine. Had I started a thread about that defective 036 Mahle cylinder would 25 people be keen on it, no. I love the interest Stihl gets whether its good or bad, goes to show the name is still turning heads after 75 plus years. 

To show you how fruitless this thread really is just yesterday this beautifull Ford truck pulled up in front of the shop door, beautifull truck. The guy got out and I met him at the door. He brought me chains to sharpen, grrrr. Anyway I go man thats a nice looking truck you got there. He goes thanks but its not the truck my other one was. I said what was the other one. He goes Ford. I said whatcha mean, your talking both Fords. He goes my other one was a diesel and it blew a head gasket after the warranty ran out, cost me a big penny. Then after I got that fixed the SOB blew the other side head gaslet out so I got rid of it. He's still driving what, Ford.

So you take the motors apart inspecting the workmanship before you buy, now thats something, won't happen where I work or any place that I know of. And no I'm not pulling the jug off to show you in order to get you to buy it, step aside, another customer will buy it, LOL, (messing with ya)


----------



## litefoot (May 7, 2009)

Evan said:


> or stihl doesnt give flyn shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit and the 20% of the people who crack a saw open will be a wash over what there savn on the cheap casting. get the old stuff and keep it running because this is just going to get worse
> 
> maybe bad economic times caused stihl to go cheaper to stay afoat, could be possibilty



20% here. Maybe 2% in the rest of the chainsaw world.


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## Grande Dog (May 7, 2009)

Howdy,
I don't know if there is anyone on here that is more aware of the AS being a double edged sword as I do. The PR can help boost a product, or kill it dead. I've tried to be as proactive with our product issues as possible. Stihl is a huge corporation and I doubt if anyone from corporate will ever comment on this issue. I might be wrong, and I'll be the first to admit if someone from Stihl nuts up and makes a comment.
Our dealings with Brad have been totally public. We solicited him to consider giving us his thoughts on product we're developing. The only things we have PM'd about is getting some care packages together for GTG's he's involved with. I also do this with other people doing GTG's. The only thing we ever comped him was some aftermarket parts for a 038 he was twisting together. He never asked, I saw the thread and just sent stuff. It was the least we could do to help cover his time. To imply that he's on the dole to give us favorable reviews, or comments is plain wrong.
I'm sure if Stihl sent him a cylinder for evaluation the title of this thread would be different. I can't speak for Brad but, finding this cylinder on a stock pro saw is like finding a lower quality Brazilian VW cylinder on your Porche that your putting the performance kit in. It just isn't what you paid for, or wanted.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Evan said:


> maybe bad economic times caused stihl to go cheaper to stay afoat, could be possibilty



If thats the case they're going down anyway.... might as well take the high road and go out with some integrity.

Anybody remember the days when MacCulloch, Homelite, and Poulan ruled the roost????

What ever happened to that???? 







There's a lesson there that Stihl would be wise to learn.

Nobody ever bought a Stihl saw because it was cheap.


----------



## AZLOGGER (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Wow Erick. Wish I could put it like that. You hit the nail on the head...several times.
> 
> We've settle the question and this is *not *a one time defect but can be expected when buying a new Pro Stihl saw. This is not isolated to the "outdated" 260, but includes the almighty 660 and 460 as well. This is not the quality with which Stihl earned their reputation, neither with the world or myself. They have taught us to expect high quality and demand the price for it. They have dropped their end of the deal.
> 
> ...





*Very well stated Brad!*

Brad the statement about them being made in the Zama factory, was meant as a joke, I have no idea where they are made, nor do I really give a :censored:. I will tell all of you that if I ordered a OEM P/C, and it showed up looking like this one, I will be on the phone to the manufacturer asking what type of crap they are trying to pawn off as top of the line replacement parts.
That being said, I have called Husqvarna on some plastics on new units that have casting flashes on them. I was pissed when I cut my fingers on these razor sharp casting flashes, had to stop pre-delivery service, go wash blood off, pour some peroxide on cuts, then wait for bleeding to stop. I don't know of many people who like the site of blood all over their new *** product. I was informed that they would notify Sweden of the problem. BTW I did clean up the flashes, so my customers would not cut themselves, and this is not supposed to be part of the set-up and pre-delivery steps. I have called on 1 P/C that I refused to install in the last 12 months, no problem a replacement on its way and return authorization accepted. This problem is not just common among the big 2, everyone it seems is lowering their QC standards.

*Everyone remember the old saying,"If it looks like :censored:,smells like :censored:, feels like :censored:, then it must be :censored:".*


----------



## whitedogone (May 7, 2009)

I guess in it was "inhouse" they won't be giving themselves one of these:

http://www.stihl.com/isapi/default.asp?contenturl=/unternehmen/presse/tagespresse/476.htm


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> I don't know if there is anyone on here that is more aware of the AS being a double edged sword as I do. The PR can help boost a product, or kill it dead. I've tried to be as proactive with our product issues as possible. Stihl is a huge corporation and I doubt if anyone from corporate will ever comment on this issue. I might be wrong, and I'll be the first to admit if someone from Stihl nuts up and makes a comment.
> Our dealings with Brad have been totally public. We solicited him to consider giving us his thoughts on product we're developing. The only things we have PM'd about is getting some care packages together for GTG's he's involved with. I also do this with other people doing GTG's. The only thing we ever comped him was some aftermarket parts for a 038 he was twisting together. He never asked, I saw the thread and just sent stuff. It was the least we could do to help cover his time. To imply that he's on the dole to give us favorable reviews, or comments is plain wrong.
> I'm sure if Stihl sent him a cylinder for evaluation the title of this thread would be different. I can't speak for Brad but, finding this cylinder on a stock pro saw is like finding a lower quality Brazilian VW cylinder on your Porche that your putting the performance kit in. It just isn't what you paid for, or wanted.
> ...



Grand good post. Would you guys give Brad a new cylinder seeing that one is obviously not very good even though its not his cylinder? After you answer I got another question for ya..


----------



## AZLOGGER (May 7, 2009)

whitedogone said:


> I guess you didn't read 'bout that fella in MO @KFC that was adding a little extra cream to the coleslaw.



*whitedogone this is bad, totally wrong!*



wigglesworth said:


> I inspected my hamburger for spit and found a stihl cylinder.....it was junk though



*The reason was the pickle juice caused pitting in the bore on the cylinder, just think of what it does to your digestive tract.*


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Hey Tommie, while we wait for Greg.... I got a quick question for ya.

Had a logger come in a little while back with a 660 wouldn't run right. 

Turns out the plating had come off just below the exhaust port and scored the piston and cylinder pretty good.

Man told me he has been running Stihl for 30 years and never had a single major failure.... said he's had 4 go down in the last year *ALL* were cylinder related.

Just wondering... what would you tell this customer about that cylinder Brad just posted??


----------



## wigglesworth (May 7, 2009)

> The reason was the pickle juice caused pitting in the bore on the cylinder, just think of what it does to your digestive tract.




That leaves some smokey exhaust fumes if you know what I mean!


----------



## Grande Dog (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Grand good post. Would you guys give Brad a new cylinder seeing that one is obviously not very good even though its not his cylinder? After you answer I got another question for ya..


Howdy,
It is a little different for us because we're not manufactures. I can only comment on the part as a stand alone. We would do the replacement as a defective part rather than a warranty. It would be done through the original purchaser but, we would send it to the agent of the customers choice. 
Regards
Gregg


----------



## Fastcast (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Grand good post. Would you guys give Brad a new cylinder seeing that one is obviously not very good even though its not his cylinder? After you answer I got another question for ya..



You always have these questions you want everybody to answer but I see when you're asked a tough question, you choose to ignore it. 

How about answering my below question? I'm stihl waiting for your reply.



Fastcast said:


> So are you alright with that degradation in quality, as long as the mighty Stihl saws stihl run "fine"? opcorn:


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

*A rush to judgment! Firesale on Stihls?*

Well, well! Stihl is done. Put a fork in her. Quality shot. No one is going to buy a Stihl. A few posters are going to unload.

I know ....... I'll go over to the Tradin' Post and pick up a bargain Stihl during this frenzy.

OK. Click ....... click .......... OK ..... pick that .... let's see here.

1) An old Stihl 021. Chain not sharp ... about shot. $175 plus shipping! What did it cost new? OK, xrem20 didn't get the news yet.

2) Stihl 090. Hot dam. Oops .... compression of 125. Oh, ten bens for this old monster. fourfortyfive isn't running scared either.

3) Stihl MS-460. Now we're talkin'. Oops ..... a basket case that needs a cylinder, piston and carb. OK ... a bargain at $300? Sunrise guy didn't get the memo either. Gee, and all those new replacement cylinders will be junk I guess.

4) Stihl 034. $275 in nice shape. Looks like Madman is getting shakey kness, this is a good price.

5) Stihl 038 AV Magnum 2. Best offer. Well, good luck guff, but I think the train just left the station.

Help now, we gotta move these shoddy Stihls,

Joat


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Help now, we gotta move these shoddy Stihls,
> 
> Joat



Joat, you left out the USED 290s on ebay that bring $300+. I've had it with Stihl, no Stihl no more!!! Arggggggggggggggggggggg.:censored:


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## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> Hey Tommie, while we wait for Greg.... I got a quick question for ya.
> 
> Had a logger come in a little while back with a 660 wouldn't run right.
> 
> ...



I would tell your customer how did you knock that plating off,LOL I would tell him man I saw a cylinder on AS that looked like hell but it was a Husky cylinder,LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Fact is Eric in the last year Stihl and every other manufacture have had plenty of cylinders go down. I've seen fried Huskys come in my door, Echo's, and even one Dolmar. They have to leave the factory running lean to meet EPA requirements and topping that from all the water I've seen in fuel lately from ethenol that doesn't help either. Any saw sold out the box and out the door not adjusted is running on the edge to meet EPA, thats fact and thats the way it is and thats the way its gonna stay. Note what your man said, all in the last year or but none in almost 30 years. Things have changed my man and its not just the saws but the rules they have to meet to be sold in the USA. 

Far as Brads cylinder I would like to have it. I'd put it on one of my 260's and run it. I'm not worried about all those things he pointed out, I can't see all those things when the saw is running, my interest is like most, how it runs and how long it runs,


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Textbook example of a red herring joat.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Far as Brads cylinder I would like to have it. I'd put it on one of my 260's and run it. I'm not worried about all those things he pointed out, I can't see all those things when the saw is running, my interest is like most, how it runs and how long it runs,


Tommy, I expected more out of you than that.


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

I want to hear what lakeside has to say about this.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Tommy, I expected more out of you than that.



I like this part myself, LOLOLOL.



THALL10326 said:


> I would tell your customer how did you knock that plating off,LOL I would tell him man I saw a cylinder on AS that looked like hell but it was a Husky cylinder,LOLOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> You always have these questions you want everybody to answer but I see when you're asked a tough question, you choose to ignore it.
> 
> How about answering my below question? I'm stihl waiting for your reply.



Well cuse me Fast, how dare me not see your question. Fast if it runs fine what is the problem. How it looks and how it runs is really a matter of opinion. To be quite honest that cylinder is 100% perfect for a man thats going to mod it. Course now you see a lack of quailty, of course you do. That said can you post some pics of the cylinders on your machines, I mean there may be a lack of quality in there you don't know about, I'm sure I'll be able to spot some for ya,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> The saw was bought brand new on 12-26-08 in Eureka MO. Hopefully my dealer will help me out even though it wasn't bought there or by me. I do have a great relationship with them and have bought thousands of dollars of parts there.



Brad,

I left this low hanging fruit post long enough. I'm going to grab it now. You have a saw that you didn't purchase, was purchased four states away, and you're taking it to your dealer with an obvious expectation of some gratification. This is incredible and in my mind speaks volumes for Stihl, their dealers, their policies and their practices.

Joat


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I would tell your customer how did you knock that plating off,LOL I would tell him man I saw a cylinder on AS that looked like hell but it was a Husky cylinder,LOLOLOLOLOLOL
> 
> Fact is Eric in the last year Stihl and every other manufacture have had plenty of cylinders go down. I've seen fried Huskys come in my door, Echo's, and even one Dolmar. They have to leave the factory running lean to meet EPA requirements and topping that from all the water I've seen in fuel lately from ethenol that doesn't help either. Any saw sold out the box and out the door not adjusted is running on the edge to meet EPA, thats fact and thats the way it is and thats the way its gonna stay. Note what your man said, all in the last year or but none in almost 30 years. Things have changed my man and its not just the saws but the rules they have to meet to be sold in the USA.
> 
> Far as Brads cylinder I would like to have it. I'd put it on one of my 260's and run it. I'm not worried about all those things he pointed out, I can't see all those things when the saw is running, my interest is like most, how it runs and how long it runs,




Tommie, Tommie.... man runs Avgas so no alky, no water, and no stale fuel and I can assure you that no saw leaves my hands "factory lean" so long as it has a H needle.

But you are right about one thing, times have indeed changed. 

And you're right about another thing.... it is my name and rep that is on the line when I sell or repair a saw.... that’s why I call'em like I see'm regardless of who’s name is on the box.


----------



## Zodiac45 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> I left this low hanging fruit post long enough. I'm going to grab it now. You have a saw that you didn't purchase, was purchased four states away, and you're taking it to your dealer with an obvious expectation of some gratification. This is incredible and in my mind speaks volumns for Stihl, their dealers, their policies and their practices.
> 
> Joat



Joat, Joat.....You man of Stihl. Your right about Brad's dealer if in fact he does anything. That's a heck of a dealer (Kinda like Tommy!) Got to agree with Tom about new saws being on the edge for epa out of the box. That's not gonna change and if the purchaser is not familiar with tuning, there's a very real possibility of a short lived cyl/piston/rings. That goes for all brands.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

~snip~



joatmon said:


> Well, well! Stihl is done. Put a fork in her. Quality shot. No one is going to buy a Stihl. A few posters are going to unload.
> 
> I know ....... I'll go over to the Tradin' Post and pick up a bargain Stihl during this frenzy.



Yikes.

How do I tell if this'uns any count, without ripping her apart?

The visible cooling fins look okay and are there, mostly.


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> ~snip~
> 
> 
> 
> ...



PAP,

Yep, it's junk. Sorry........... ya know ..... I'll give ya $300 for it because I like ya and don't want you to have to deal with a crappy cylinder.

Cash, credit card or paypal?

Joat


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> PAP,
> 
> Yep, it's junk. Sorry........... ya know ..... I'll give ya $300 for it because I like ya and don't want you to have to deal with a crappy cylinder.
> 
> ...



I'll go $500.......


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> It is a little different for us because we're not manufactures. I can only comment on the part as a stand alone. We would do the replacement as a defective part rather than a warranty. It would be done through the original purchaser but, we would send it to the agent of the customers choice.
> Regards
> Gregg



Makes sense to me, I would not hesitate a second to replace it either providing it was brought in by the man who bought it complaining about the saw. If I found that under the hood and determind that is the problem I would make a call and all would be done. If its brought in torn apart for the purpose of modding by a second party no can do. 

Last question for ya. Hows power equipment sales out there???


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Tommy, I expected more out of you than that.




Want more pay my fee, that sound familier,hehehehe


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> PAP,
> 
> Yep, it's junk. Sorry........... ya know ..... I'll give ya $300 for it because I like ya and don't want you to have to deal with a crappy cylinder.
> 
> ...





2000ssm6 said:


> I'll go $500.......



Thanks fellas.

You know, I don't feel right sell'n it too you this way. Haven't run it, so it just wouldn't be fair to sell an untested saw.

Sure would hate to let her go and have y'all disappointed and stuff.

I appreciate your sincere offers of helpfulness. Top notch folks here on AS!


----------



## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> I want to hear what lakeside has to say about this.



Lake knows metal, I'm sure he'd reject that cylinder....


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> How would that matter? Stihl is selling 260s for $500, which is more than Husky/Jred/Dolmar/etc. sell their 50 cc saws for. And the 260 is _*significantly outperformed *_by all others in that class.
> 
> The expectation of the consumer is that they are paying more for quality. Stihl is even labeling it as 'professional-grade.'
> 
> ...



So funny, I can kill this post dead with two words, TWIN I-BEAM. How come you avoid those two words like cancer Woodie, I'm all ears....


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> Thanks fellas.
> 
> You know, I don't feel right sell'n it too you this way. Haven't run it, so it just wouldn't be fair to sell an untested saw.
> 
> ...



I'd hate for that 660 to sit at your place with a bad cylinder and all, I mean, it really won't be a problem for me to send a few bills and have it taken care of. $650? Whatcha say??? I'll go ahead and order another cylinder so you will know it's in good hands.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> ~snip~
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Plumber, I'd be willing to bet ya a cool benny that if you pull that jug you will find this.






And some less than desirable casting.


----------



## FATGUY (May 7, 2009)

erick said:


> if thats the case they're going down anyway.... Might as well take the high road and go out with some integrity.
> 
> Anybody remember the days when macculloch, homelite, and poulan ruled the roost????
> 
> ...


 +1


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> No, because I have faith in my food suppliers. If, however, I had a report of my food supplier spitting in hamburgers, you can bet your arse they wouldn't be my food supplier any more. Can you tell me why?



Well Space I'm sure the guy behind the counter spitting in peoples food is calling the newspaper and telling them what he's doing, oh my, this is too funny. Space when you get that report please share with us so we can aviod "the spitter",:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> Plumber, I'd be willing to bet ya a cool benny that if you pull that jug you will find this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is the circled parts what we are looking at?


----------



## CHEVYTOWN13 (May 7, 2009)

Dang! Bar fights all around the AS SALOON.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> Plumber, I'd be willing to bet ya a cool benny that if you pull that jug you will find this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The possibility of that does stink.

Was interested in a 660 for a good while and ended up having the "opportunity" to get this one. 

She's been on the shelf for a few months.

I'm guess'n I'd never run into problems as a "Joe Shmoe Woodcutter/part time logger wannabe."

One of these days I may get enough guts to tear her apart. In the meantime, planning on trying to live with the hope that she's alright.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

2K,
I'm guessing we are looking at a Nik. coating that stops short of the top of the cylinder.


----------



## Peacock (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> It didn't for me, but other people had their transmission spontaneously lock up at highway speeds. It was a really small defect too.





2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, looks won't get ya a new/reman transmission, has to affect performance...



Ahh.... the 2nd gear oil jet recall. Only a very few transmissions actually got replaced under the recall. The problem only occurred when on flat ground at high speed for a very long time.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Is the circled parts what we are looking at?



No what you're looking at is the plating not going to the top of the cylinder.


----------



## Paul001 (May 7, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> I understand your point, and agree about the warranty period. There are plenty of smart people at Stihl and I'd think they've crunched the numbers to assesss the warranty risk in moving production of these parts. But, when a process is uncontrolled and defects are allowed to exist, that is manufacturing culture and problems will most certainly arise from such a culture. I guess we will see!
> 
> Known defects are not allowed to exist in the auto industry. If they are at all significant, they become recalls. That cylinder has some machining irregularities. My accord trans had some machining irregularities and I got a new one out of warranty. I didn't even have to take it apart myself



You are joking right?


----------



## wanab (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> No what you're looking at is the plating not going to the top of the cylinder.




the plating never goes all the way to the top.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> No what you're looking at is the plating not going to the top of the cylinder.



Would you suggest getting an OEM cylinder as a backup?

Man, I would hate to drop that kind of dough for a just in case part.

If it was torn down, is there a chance Stihl would swap it out? Especially if it was never ran?

Finally, does it really matter that the plating doesn't go to the top? Surely the piston doesn't get that close to top.


----------



## danrclem (May 7, 2009)

If I pay a premium price I expect a premium product. I'm sure that the saw looked fine on the outside but that cylinder is far from premium. I'm sure that it will run and probably run for a long time but you won't get maximum performance with those ports. 

Maximum performance, longevity and handling is what pro saws are all about. If you have only two out of the three you don't have much.

I bought a set of AFR small block Ford heads and paid a premium for them but I got a premium product. If they looked half as bad as that Stihl cylinder I would have been fit to be tied. 

What else can be hidden that you can't see from the outside? Just because a customer may never see the defects doesn't mean that it's ok for them to be there.

It looks as though Stihl is dropping the ball for the sake of cost and profit. I'm sure that they're not the only ones doing that and I'm not just talking about chain saws either.


----------



## Paul001 (May 7, 2009)

> Would you suggest getting an OEM cylinder as a backup?
> 
> Man, I would hate to drop that kind of dough for a just in case part.
> 
> ...



If you are interested, I've got a few OEM cylinders that are fixable. No chips, just need to have the transfer cleaned off.

Yours for the asking.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So funny, I can kill this post dead with two words, TWIN I-BEAM. How come you avoid those two words like cancer Woodie, I'm all ears....



You're attempting to 'kill the post dead' by changing the subject?

I guess I'm with Space here...I expected more from you, Tommy...

.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Paul001 said:


> If you are interested, I've got a few OEM cylinders that are fixable. No chips, just need to have the transfer cleaned off.
> 
> Yours for the asking.



Pm will be sent shortly.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> Would you suggest getting an OEM cylinder as a backup?
> 
> Man, I would hate to drop that kind of dough for a just in case part.
> 
> ...



Plumber, I wouldn't really recommend doing anything, just run it... it will likely be fine.

If you order a new cylinder it will look just like that one, it is how Stihl is manufacturing them now. Stihl is doing some "in house" cylinder manufacturing and choose to cut a few corners to make them more "cost effective" (read cheaper) may or may not ever cause you a problem.

Kinda gives you a warm fuzzy feeling though doesn’t it. Now aren’t you glad you paid the top dollar for Stihl quality??

That’s what I’m talking about Stihl needs to wise up and get back to what put them on top.

For the record my stock 660 is running that same type cylinder and I have no plans to change it….. of course I have an old style Mahale cylinder laying in waiting.


----------



## Urbicide (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> This just goes to show that Stihl could take a dried up goat turd, slap some orange and yellow paint on it, set it on fire and burn a tree in two with it, call it a bio chainsaw, and there are people who would buy into it.



Love is blind. :greenchainsaw:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> You're attempting to 'kill the post dead' by changing the subject?
> 
> I guess I'm with Space here...I expected more from you, Tommy...
> 
> .



Come on Woodie, your jumping in on the Stihl bash bandwagon while you was part of probably the biggest hunk of junk to ever hit the road costing millions of people millions of dollars. Either grow a set and admit it or go find me that Kawi information and Husky information,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## 04ultra (May 7, 2009)

Looks almost as bad as most of the 359 cylinders ........


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Tommy, can you show us where Ford or twin ibeam is in this discussion thread, original post, or thread title?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

04ultra said:


> Looks almost as bad as most of the 359 cylinders ........



You stay out of this, wait, let me get my specs on and read that again, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, ok seems your on our side, welcome, fire away,LOLOLOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Tommy, can you show us where Ford or twin ibeam is in this discussion thread, original post, or thread title?



Space its like this, remember Jimmy Swaggart preaching stay away from those whores or you will go to hell, remember that. Think of Woodie as Jimmy Swaggart, he knows exactly what I'm talking about and the shoe fits perfect, yeah its ruff but hey its Woodie,LOLOLOL


----------



## Taxmantoo (May 7, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Tommy, can you show us where Ford or twin ibeam is in this discussion thread, original post, or thread title?



BlackCat mentioned the auto industry. My response to him included Ford's warp-o-matic 3.8L heads. That's the only Ford connection I can recall.


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

I've got as many buddies on this site that are Stihl guys as I do Husky and Jonny guys, so truthfully, I'm not enjoying this thread too much. (But I'm sure glad that it's not a Husky cylinder that's in question.) But I do have a few points I want to make.

That cylinder is an embarassment, and the real hard-core Stihl guys that are trying to defend it by saying it would run OK, sound at best evasive, and at worse, just plain silly. There are a lot of Stihl guys on the other hand that are not too biased to call it as they see it. If this was Husky cylinder I would just cringe. I would not really be surprised to see stuff like this cropping up on some of the less expensive homeowner saws, regardless of brand. But on a pro saw, that costs more, but is outperformed by it's chief competitors, anyone with an open mind has to say, "Hey, wait a minute!" It may run, but for how long? I can't conceive of something like that holdng up like all of the 031's and 028's that are still out there. 

A lot of conclusions are being drawn based on that cylinder. There are apparently some other examples, but whether this can be considered indicative of Stihl's current definition of "pro quality" is a question that cannot be answered based on just a few examples. 

The real smoking gun, if there is one, hasn't been found yet. And that is the answer to this question: Has Stihl decided to source P&C manufacturing, including for some of their pro saws, to China? Yes or no. (A lot of companies are doing this crap now a days, and they try to smooth over the negative reaction to the word China, by saying, "But it's our factory". BULLCRAP!!!)

If the answer is no, and I hope it is, then there are probably just a few bad cylinders out there and they need to tighten up a bit on their quality control. I just can't picture a company like Stihl accepting quality like that. I get aftermarket P&C sets, (Forester), that look way better than that thing on Brad's bench. 

If the answer is yes, then IMO it is a huge blunder on their part, and they are in the process of blowing it big time. If the answer is yes, then how do they justify the premium pricing? If they have decided to go that route, then it is a classic, short term gain approach akin to the short sighted nonsense that ruined both McCulloch and Homelite. 

And one more thought: We Husky and Jonny guys shouldn't gloat over this because if Stihl gets away with it, we could be next.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Come on Woodie, your jumping in on the Stihl bash bandwagon while you was part of probably the biggest hunk of junk to ever hit the road costing millions of people millions of dollars.



Pardon me folks while I change the subject here...I need to set Tommy straight on something:

The Twin I-Beam design was discontinued in 1997, fully four years prior to my joining Ford Motor Company.

Dismissed.


.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Spike, well said... you got rep for that. ;-)


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

*Good gosh*, I checked in about 4:21 on this thread at work. Drove 45min
stopped and said hi to Mom and Dad drove another mile to home. Ate supper
watched little news, trimmed limb out of apple tree and pulled down an 064
down to the bare case, cleanded it up a little.

People it was nice out today, here anyway.......get a life :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## spacemule (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> *Good gosh*, I checked in about 4:21 on this thread at work. Drove 45min
> stopped and said hi to Mom and Dad drove another mile to home. Ate supper
> watched little news, trimmed limb out of apple tree and pulled down an 064
> down to the bare case, cleanded it up a little.
> ...



Internet rule number 142--any poster to an online discussion forum has no standing nor basis to instruct other posters to get a life.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

How am I supposed to keep up with this thread? I leave for a couple hours and each time I come back it's about 7 pages longer!


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> How am I supposed to keep up with this thread? I leave for a couple hours and each time I come back it's about 7 pages longer!



I like this one...this is a good-a$$ thread! 



.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> This is not personal.
> 
> I admire your ability in restoration, and read your threads about restoration with great interest and admiration.
> 
> I am calling it like I see it.



I respect that and will agree to disagree amiably


----------



## Evan (May 7, 2009)

theyre not about to blow it, theyl produce cheap crap and we will continue to buy thats how we are. just think what good quality saw is going to be 20years from now, might resemble a wild thing but will cost 600 bucks


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Evan said:


> theyre not about to blow it, theyl produce cheap crap and we will continue to buy thats how we are. just think what good quality saw is going to be 20years from now, might resemble a wild thing but will cost 600 bucks



I am afraid you may well be right. :bang:


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

AZLOGGER said:


> Brad the statement about them being made in the Zama factory, was meant as a joke, I have no idea where they are made



Well I sure fell for it hook line and sinker.


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> I am afraid you may well be right. :bang:



Did you receive pakage today?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Pardon me folks while I change the subject here...I need to set Tommy straight on something:
> 
> The Twin I-Beam design was discontinued in 1997, fully four years prior to my joining Ford Motor Company.
> 
> ...



So Woodie, My GF was driving her brand new (80 miles, straight off of the lot) Mustang GT. She parks the car, goes to get out, and smells gas. She looks down and there is a huge puddle of gas under the car. Could have caused a fire. She could have been hurt. 

Turns out that the supply line to the DS fuel rail came completely off.

Paperwork to prove the above.



Does this mean that all Fords are Junk?????


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> Did you receive pakage today?



Let me go see??


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Does this mean that all Fords are Junk?????



I don't know...I don't work for the company.



.


----------



## Evan (May 7, 2009)

im sure brad was told hes up ffffffffffin fffffffff creek without a ffffffffffing paddle.

so whats the big deal theyve been getn cheaper for years just not that drastic. and it has always been if you want quality and want it done right build it yourself .


----------



## epicklein22 (May 7, 2009)

Alright, here is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth.

First of all, Brad has such a following here, it is just crazy. Stay humble Brad, I don't want you to go all rockstar on us. You really have to watch what you say or how you say it. Timberwolf posted about this with pictures months ago. Nobody even paid much attention to it. I think you (Brad) even commented on this stuff over at the other site. T sling'r commented about it too a long time ago. Now we got 20 pages of this stuff and it is the first time anyone ever heard about it.

TZ250 is dead on with everything he has said. 

If that part passes longevity and runs good, then it is technical fine and nothing is wrong. You can't tell me that saw is gonna have a shorter life. I will also bet that if you tested a 026 with a Mahle cylinder and one with a Stihl cylinder, you wouldn't notice a difference at all. Does it make it ok for Stihl to produce cylinders that aren't as "nice" as Mahle ones, no. They should stick with Mahle until their cylinders are on par. They have a ferrari/ducati/bmw reputation to upstand, which should never be compromised because that is their MO. This isn't just a stihl problem though, just like dolmar air filter designs suck and let in saw dust and husky re-badges poulans and charges more. If Stihl replaces this cylinder, you got to commend the company for making things right, especially when nothing is truly "wrong". That is what I admire with Baileys, they make things right if something isn't.

I know Thall asked first, but I will take that cylinder and run it if you don't want it Brad.

I always love to hear what the dealers have to say....they are the ones that truly have to deal with this stuff. They have a large say in quality too.....

Stihl is casting these cylinders in house at VA Beach. They also do casting for other industries. That is what my dealer told me a while back.

Remember when Pontiac came out with the Fiero? They took a front end, welded the steering shut and used it for the rear drive. So this stuff has been going for years. Everybody always says they don't make them like they used to. Hopefully Stihl doesn't follow this road.

Someone give me a beer, or 3.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> I don't know...I don't work for the company.
> 
> 
> 
> .



You feel compelled to comment on Stihl quality, please comment on Ford quality.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> I've got as many buddies on this site that are Stihl guys as I do Husky and Jonny guys, so truthfully, I'm not enjoying this thread too much. (But I'm sure glad that it's not a Husky cylinder that's in question.) But I do have a few points I want to make.
> 
> That cylinder is an embarassment, and the real hard-core Stihl guys that are trying to defend it by saying it would run OK, sound at best evasive, and at worse, just plain silly. There are a lot of Stihl guys on the other hand that are not too biased to call it as they see it. If this was Husky cylinder I would just cringe. I would not really be surprised to see stuff like this cropping up on some of the less expensive homeowner saws, regardless of brand. But on a pro saw, that costs more, but is outperformed by it's chief competitors, anyone with an open mind has to say, "Hey, wait a minute!" It may run, but for how long? I can't conceive of something like that holdng up like all of the 031's and 028's that are still out there.
> 
> ...



Good post Spike. Let me give you the correct answer as to where that cylinder come from and why. That cylinder Brad said is marked Stihl, not Mahle. He also said the piston is marked Mahle, that I would like to see when Stihl makes there own pistons at Va Beach. They do not cast cylinders there, that is outsourced to Mahle. Me being the sneak that I am I made a call today about that cylinder Brad showed. That cylinder was made in Brasil, not China. 

Now the interesting part as it was told to me. The only time Stihl uses cylinders from Brasil is when Mahle can't keep up with demand. Thats why its very rare to find Stihl pro saws with Stihl branded logo cylinders on them without Mahle written on it too, they are usually all Mahle. Oddly I'm not sure if they were telling me that cylinder is made for Stihl or by Stihl but I will indeed find out. 

Now if what I was told is true it doesn't look like Stihl is suffering at all but like you I agree, that cylinder did not look very good compared to other cylinders I have seen.

I tend to disagree with the running that cylinder part. If that saw runs as good any other 260 and it lasts like any other 260 there is nothing performace wise wrong with it, appearance yes, alot. I can't help but wonder how appearance affects the tree, does the tree say get away from me, I know your ugly on the inside, I don't think so,

Now can I post my quailty control failure at Husqvarna pic Spike, please,LOLOL


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike. Let me give you the correct answer as to where that cylinder come from and why. That cylinder Brad said is marked Stihl, not Mahle. He also said the piston is marked Mahle, that I would like to see when Stihl makes there own pistons at Va Beach. They do not cast cylinders there, that is outsourced to Mahle. Me being the sneak that I am I made a call today about that cylinder Brad showed. That cylinder was made in Brasil, not China.
> 
> Now the interesting part as it was told to me. The only time Stihl uses cylinders from Brasil is when Mahle can't keep up with demand. Thats why its very rare to find Stihl pro saws with Stihl branded logo cylinders on them without Mahle written on it too, they are usually all Mahle. Oddly I'm not sure if they were telling me that cylinder is made for Stihl or by Stihl but I will indeed find out.
> 
> ...






So much for Chicom....


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> Did you receive pakage today?



I did. 

Was left in the car and the wife didn't see it.


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Now can I post my quailty control failure at Husqvarna pic Spike, please,LOLOL



Let 'er rip ole buddy! We got to restore the universe back to normal here.


----------



## CHEVYTOWN13 (May 7, 2009)

Shoot! The AS SALOON is smoked out crazy right now. I can't see a ####ing thing!


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> So much for Chicom....



Well I was in the know about 2pm today. I figured letem make have a ball for a few hours. All that talk of have they or haven't they, oh my what have they done, they are going under now, ha, they are selling more than Mahle can produce, and there was a time when they had the same problem with pistons, that why they build they're own now. I think Stihl should get into the cylinder biz full swing and cut out the middle man, they sure make a fine piston, even Brad said so,


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> You feel compelled to comment on Stihl quality, please comment on Ford quality.




Why? This thread is about stihl's quality (or lack thereof), not Ford's. Changing the subject is a THALL tactic...



.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Let 'er rip ole buddy! We got to restore the universe back to normal here.



Spike I'm a very evil man. I did something much worse with that picture. I sent it to 2k to shove down Woodies throat,hehe Spike stay tuned, 2k is gonna give Woodie a fit with it, were gonna get to see the other side squirm and go oh noooooooooooooooo, how can that be, they must be going down hill, its a ChiCom case,hehe. I know, I'm such a common low life,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *Why*? This thread is about stihl's quality (or lack thereof), not Ford's. Changing the subject is a THALL tactic...
> 
> 
> 
> .



Cuz ur "Cap'n Bullcrap'n", thats *why*!!!!


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well I was in the know about 2pm today. I figured letem make have a ball for a few hours. All that talk of have they or haven't they, oh my what have they done, they are going under now, ha, they are selling more than Mahle can produce, and there was a time when they had the same problem with pistons, that why they build they're own now. I think Stihl should get into the cylinder biz full swing and cut out the middle man, they sure make a fine piston, even Brad said so,




Yup, their was a thread a while back about 066's around 1999 having
Brazil made cylinders............I have 2 066's that do.


TT


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike. Let me give you the correct answer as to where that cylinder come from and why. That cylinder Brad said is marked Stihl, not Mahle. He also said the piston is marked Mahle, that I would like to see when Stihl makes there own pistons at Va Beach. They do not cast cylinders there, that is outsourced to Mahle. Me being the sneak that I am I made a call today about that cylinder Brad showed. That cylinder was made in Brasil, not China.
> 
> Now the interesting part as it was told to me. The only time Stihl uses cylinders from Brasil is when Mahle can't keep up with demand. Thats why its very rare to find Stihl pro saws with Stihl branded logo cylinders on them without Mahle written on it too, they are usually all Mahle. Oddly I'm not sure if they were telling me that cylinder is made for Stihl or by Stihl but I will indeed find out.
> 
> ...



so it looks like there are alot of cylinders being built down in brasil. Erick, timberwolf,brad and treeslinger has all commited of this.


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Now the interesting part as it was told to me. The only time Stihl uses cylinders from Brasil is when Mahle can't keep up with demand. Thats why its very rare to find Stihl pro saws with Stihl branded logo cylinders on them without Mahle written on it too, they are usually all Mahle. Oddly I'm not sure if they were telling me that cylinder is made for Stihl or by Stihl but I will indeed find out.



In case anybody doesn't know, Husky also has a factory in Brazil. Maybe they made the cylinder for Stihl. LOL

BTW, last year I got in the last four 55's that I will probably ever see from Husky. The box looked a little different, took a closer look and they were "made in Brazil" They seemed fine and are all still running as far as I know. 

Other than that, I can't say too much about Brazilion saws, but the chicks down there sure are hot, aren't they?


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> You feel compelled to comment on Stihl quality, please comment on Ford quality.





Woodie said:


> Why? This thread is about stihl's quality (or lack thereof), not Ford's. Changing the subject is a THALL tactic...
> 
> 
> 
> .



I'll comment on it!

Two vehicles: 99 F150 and a 99 E-350.
Both had the Triton V8
At 22,000 mi. both needed a right side head gasket
At 44,000 mi. both needed a right side head gasket

Traded the pick up for a Tundra in 2003.
Still have the van.

AT 62,000 the van needed a right side head gasket.
Haven't gotten it fixed, just been feeding her oil very 1,000 miles.

BTW had to pay for about 1/2 of the head gasket repairs the 2nd time around, on both vehicles. Pretty frustrating!


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Wow. I'm finally caught up. Lots of good posts. I agree with most of them.

Tom, I can't blame you on your position with someone other than the purchaser bringing in the P&C off a new saw and not wanting to deal with it. The difference here is that I'm not just a walk in asking for a favor. I've spent thousands of dollars on Stihl part with them over the last few year. We have a great relationship. One of the two owners of the shop took it and agreed to do what he could for me.

I believe it was Tom and Erick that both mentioned something about the following. You see, when a customer sends a saw to me and includes a check to perform said work, my reputation is on the line. This cylinder simply does not meet my standards. It does not represent the kind of quality that I want to put out. The owner of the saw is very grateful that I didn't just mod the cylinder and not say anything. Here are some exact quotes from his emails. _ "*Maybe that's part of the reason I was disappointed in it's performance after buying my NE346XP. Perhaps it wasn't really "putting out" like it should have been*."_ _"*I'm glad your conscience enough to examine it and not just do the work.* "_ Like you said, it's not just about Stihl for me.

I'm very glad to hear that most cylinders are still coming from Mahle. However, the cylinder ont he 260 Pro at the dealer tonight looked just like this one.

I'm sure I missed some more good thoughts you guys brought up.


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> I'll comment on it!
> 
> Two vehicles: 99 F150 and a 99 E-350.
> Both had the Triton V8
> ...



That would just piss me off.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> All that talk of have they or haven't they, oh my what have they done, they are going under now, ha, they are selling more than Mahle can produce



Okay...so is stihl doing the honest thing and discounting the saws that come with the garbage jugs?

I don't think it's fair to pass off a pro-grade saw with a crap-grade jug, so I'm sure stihl is now offering two separate models at two separate prices.

Right?

Don't pat stihl on the back for 'selling more than Mahle can produce' when stihl turns around and supplies a cylinder that looks like it was cast and machined in a high-school shop class.


.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Why? This thread is about stihl's quality (or lack thereof), not Ford's. Changing the subject is a THALL tactic...
> 
> 
> 
> .



Jimmy isn't preaching much anymore is he, hmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> In case anybody doesn't know, Husky also has a factory in Brazil. Maybe they made the cylinder for Stihl. LOL
> 
> BTW, last year I got in the last four 55's that I will probably ever see from Husky. The box looked a little different, took a closer look and they were "made in Brazil" They seemed fine and are all still running as far as I know.
> 
> ?



But the 55 isn't considered a pro grade saw.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Timberwolf posted about this with pictures months ago. Nobody even paid much attention to it. I think you (Brad) even commented on this stuff over at the other site. T sling'r commented about it too a long time ago. Now we got 20 pages of this stuff and it is the first time anyone ever heard about it.



I was just a _little _more blunt about it with my thread title and first post wording. It was indeed my intent to draw attention to this poor quality that is being seen all too often. I expect and demand better than that when I pay good money for something.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> I'll comment on it!
> 
> {snip}
> 
> Pretty frustrating!



But how were the *cylinders??* 


.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Okay...so is stihl doing the honest thing and discounting the saws that come with the garbage jugs?
> 
> I don't think it's fair to pass off a pro-grade saw with a crap-grade jug, so I'm sure stihl is now offering two separate models at two separate prices.
> 
> ...



Awww did I pop your bubble. What are they suppose to do, shut down till the cylinders show up, you worked at Ford and you of all people know it doesn't work that way. No product to sell means what Woodie??


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Jimmy isn't preaching much anymore is he, hmmmmmmmmmm




No, but God help us all you are...


.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> But how were the *cylinders??*
> 
> 
> .



Don't know.

Starting to get a little used to it...

If I don't smell oil when I shut it down, I know it's time to add another quart!


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Awww did I pop your bubble. What are they suppose to do, shut down till the cylinders show up?



Yes.

(Or make some decent castings themselves.)

(Or sell the crap model at a discount.)

It comes down to ethics, Tommy.

Some companies have them, some don't.


.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> No, but God help us all you are...
> 
> 
> .



Haha, Woodie you didn't answer my question, what happens when there is no product to sell or when products don't sell, you of all people should know. If you find it hard to accept Stihl hasn't had a lay off yet in these hard times now you know why, they do what they have to do to prevent that. If it means they gotta go elsewhere to get the parts to keep the product moving so be it, jobs are more important than this little tiny crowd we have in here. I commend them, wouldn't you??


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

OK, I have an idea how to resolve this in a timely manner for my customer. My dealer said it may be 2-4 weeks before the rep will be back in his store to check this out. So, in the mean time, I'm going to check with bcorradi and see if he has any more of the 44.7mm OEM top ends. If he does, I will purchase that on my dime, port it, and return the saw to it's owner. He owes me nothing more than he has already paid. 

But even better than that. One of you diehard Stihl guys ought to step up and buy this perfectly good P&C for what the replacement costs me, $85. I mean, it has only had a couple tanks of fuel through it. It's the same as new. Besides, there nothing wrong with it? Right? Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


----------



## Paul001 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Yes.
> 
> (Or make some decent castings themselves.)
> 
> ...



Having grown up in that part of the country, the automotive industry and particularly the Union's haven't a clue about Ethics...


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Haha, Woodie you didn't answer my question, what happens when there is no product to sell or when products don't sell, you of all people should know. If you find it hard to accept Stihl hasn't had a lay off yet in these hard times now you know why, they do what they have to do to prevent that. If it means they gotta go elsewhere to get the parts to keep the product moving so be it, jobs are more important than this little tiny crowd we have in here. I commend them, wouldn't you??



Sounds like situational ethics to me. The end justifies the means. Not!


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Haha, Woodie you didn't answer my question, what happens when there is no product to sell or when products don't sell, you of all people should know. If you find it hard to accept Stihl hasn't had a lay off yet in these hard times now you know why, they do what they have to do to prevent that. If it means they gotta go elsewhere to get the parts to keep the product moving so be it, jobs are more important than this little tiny crowd we have in here. I commend them, wouldn't you??



Tom, I think this thread wouldn't have gone to 50 bazillion pages if you and a few others would quit trying to shift the focus off of stihl's mediocre quality.

You can defend it any way you want to, but in the end, stihl's been caught with its chaps down. 

If you stihlheads would simply admit that fact, like the two Brads and Erick and many others have, this wouldn't be going so poorly for you guys.


.


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Okay...so is stihl doing the honest thing and discounting the saws that come with the garbage jugs?
> 
> I don't think it's fair to pass off a pro-grade saw with a crap-grade jug, so I'm sure stihl is now offering two separate models at two separate prices.
> 
> ...




This is actually very true, and a very valid point. Cylinders from Brazil as opposed to China doesn't exactly let Stihl off the hook here. Knowing that cylinder doesn't come from China doesn't make the pictures look any better, does it? And Stihl's decision to use cylinders from Brazil when they run out of the Mahles in order to keep the line moving isn't exactly a noble move on their part. 

How about this scenario: We got two saws here, one with the regular Mahle cylinder and one with the Brazilion one when we ran out of the Mahles. They're both the same price. Which one do YOU want?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> OK, I have an idea how to resolve this in a timely manner for my customer. My dealer said it may be 2-4 weeks before the rep will be back in his store to check this out. So, in the mean time, I'm going to check with bcorradi and see if he has any more of the 44.7mm OEM top ends. If he does, I will purchase that on my dime, port it, and return the saw to it's owner. He owes me nothing more than he has already paid.
> 
> But even better than that. One of you diehard Stihl guys ought to step up and buy this perfectly good P&C for what the replacement costs me, $85. I mean, it has only had a couple tanks of fuel through it. It's the same as new. Besides, there nothing wrong with it? Right? Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.



You made the accusation, the burden of proof lies with you. Put it on your 260 and test it to failure.

Report back when you have solid data.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> You made the accusation, the burden of proof lies with you. Put it on your 260 and test it to failure.
> 
> Report back when you have solid data.



No, no, no. You're the one that said it was perfectly fine with no defects. You need to buy this P&C and prove it. My point was that the quality sucks and I've already proven that with my pics.:greenchainsaw:


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Space its like this, remember Jimmy Swaggart preaching stay away from those whores or you will go to hell, remember that. Think of Woodie as Jimmy Swaggart, he knows exactly what I'm talking about and the shoe fits perfect, yeah its ruff but hey its Woodie,LOLOLOL



Tommie,

My good man, you told us that Woodie is like Jimmy Swaggart, so Space is like ........, gee, who's left in this story.

Just askin',

Joat


----------



## epicklein22 (May 7, 2009)

Just port it and sell it. Once you port it, what is gonna be wrong besides the little chip?


----------



## Paul001 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> No, no, no. You're the one that said it was perfectly fine with no defects. You need to buy this P&C and prove it. My point was that the quality sucks and I've already proven that with my pics.:greenchainsaw:




Honestly, there's no question as to the lack of quality as shown in those pic's. Least to folks like you and I. On the other hand, Stihl ultimately makes the decision as to if that cylinder meets their QC specs or not.

I suspect if I had pulled that cylinder out of a box to install on a customers saw and attempted to send it back...well I'm not sure if they would credit us or not.

Fortunately, I've not had to face that issue yet. I'm doing 5-10 P & C's a week for along time and have yet to see one that looks like that.

Edit: Actually there isn't a question, with that chip, it would be returned, period.


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> OK, I have an idea how to resolve this in a timely manner for my customer. My dealer said it may be 2-4 weeks before the rep will be back in his store to check this out. So, in the mean time, I'm going to check with bcorradi and see if he has any more of the 44.7mm OEM top ends. If he does, I will purchase that on my dime, port it, and return the saw to it's owner. He owes me nothing more than he has already paid.
> 
> But even better than that. One of you diehard Stihl guys ought to step up and buy this perfectly good P&C for what the replacement costs me, $85. I mean, it has only had a couple tanks of fuel through it. It's the same as new. Besides, there nothing wrong with it? Right? Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.



SOLD!

Brad,

We've dealt before, so you know I'm a man of my word. Cash, check, or money order? I'll await a PM with the toal because I'll pay shipping.

Joat

PS: Ever sell anything in twelve minutes?


----------



## computeruser (May 7, 2009)

Late to the game here, but a couple thoughts:

1. The cylinder looks like $hit. It might run, it might even run OK. But on a premium product, fit and finish issues are more than cosmetics. Stihl had better swap it out for a proper one, or they will have really lost a lot of respect for me.

2. Why must so many things be made by the ####### Chinese? I don't want to buy Chinese crap, give money to Chinese businesses, or otherwise subsidize overseas operations in 3rd world nations.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> SOLD!
> 
> Brad,
> 
> ...



There we go!!!!!!!!!!!!! Port it for him too!!!!!


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> JJ, you are correct. I'm sure I can port this saw and it'll run fine. But these *defects* simply should not be there. My personal 260 cylinder looks nothing like this.





blsnelling said:


> No, no, no. You're the one that said it was perfectly fine with no defects. You need to buy this P&C and prove it. My point was that the quality sucks and I've already proven that with my pics.:greenchainsaw:



You were the first to call the cylinder deffective.

Prove it.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Once you port it, what is gonna be wrong besides the little chip?



"So, other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"




.


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> There we go!!!!!!!!!!!!! Port it for him too!!!!!



I don't even have an 026. BTW, I'm looking for an 026 that needs a cylinder. PM me with details. Turn your POS Stihl that needs a cylinder into JoatCa$h.

Joat


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> SOLD!
> 
> Brad,
> 
> ...



Are you going to put it on that new 576


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> SOLD!
> 
> Brad,
> 
> ...



Why would you want to do that Joatman? Seriously?


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

Hell Brad may have chip cylinder take it off....ever see what he did
to *them* poor MS180 :greenchainsaw:


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> "So, other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Woodster,

I'm sure if you had been seated near the Lincoln party that evening, Abe's demise would have been the second worse event of that evening for Mrs. Lincoln.

Joat


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Why would you want to do that Joatman? Seriously?



Brad,

I'm going to run it on an 026 I'm going to buy and see how it goes.

This should make you happy, your customer happy and me happy. It's as close as I'll ever get to making peace in the Middle East.

Joat


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Just port it and sell it. Once you port it, what is gonna be wrong besides the little chip?



The truth of the matter is that porting would remove most everything I showed. It's simply a matter of principle. This cylinder isn't right and I want to see Stihl replace it. And if they do, I'll be just as quick to post that as I was my initial findings. BTW, that chip is in a location that the piston will never touch it. That chip is actually the least of my concerns.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Woodster,
> 
> _*I'm sure if you had been seated near the Lincoln party that evening, Abe's demise would have been the second worse event of that evening for Mrs. Lincoln.*_
> Joat



Folks, it just doesn't get any better than this...


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> I'm going to run it on an 026 I'm going to buy and see how it goes.
> 
> ...



And then you're going to rub it in how good that piece of crap P&C runs, right?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Why would you want to do that Joatman? Seriously?





joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> I'm going to run it on an 026 I'm going to buy and see how it goes.
> 
> ...





blsnelling said:


> The truth of the matter is that porting would remove most everything I showed. It's simply a matter of principle. This cylinder isn't right and I want to see Stihl replace it. And if they do, I'll be just as quick to post that as I was my initial findings. BTW, that chip is in a location that the piston will never touch it. That chip is actually the least of my concerns.




I smell fear...


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

*Are we having fun yet????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## epicklein22 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> The truth of the matter is that porting would remove most everything I showed. It's simply a matter of principle. This cylinder isn't right and I want to see Stihl replace it. And if they do, I'll be just as quick to post that as I was my initial findings. BTW, that chip is in a location that the piston will never touch it. That chip is actually the least of my concerns.



Well, you just sold it!!! I guess Joat is gonna get to see what it is made of. 

I have some 026 parts, nothing big. The case has a few pieces busted off and is not usable.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Folks, it just doesn't get any better than this...



Are you serious? Even joat's stuff gets a lot better than that.


.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> I smell fear...



Don't even try to turn this around on me now


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> *Are we having fun yet????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*



*Stihl #1! Stihl #1!*​


----------



## epicklein22 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> *Are we having fun yet????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*



No pictures of half naked chicks or gypo's bare ass. So this thread isn't done yet. LOL


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> And then you're going to rub it in how good that piece of crap P&C runs, right?



Brad,

As they say in the arena, "you strap 'em on and take your chances."

Game on,

Joat


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Don't even try to turn this around on me now



Couldn't if I tried.

I have to give it to you Brad, you have stirred up the biggest hornets nest on AS in a long time. 

I have had a great time with this one, how about you?


----------



## epicklein22 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *Stihl #1! Stihl #1!*​



Give me an "S", S
Give me an "T", T
Give me an "I", I
Give me an "H", H
Give me an "L", L

What does it spell? STIHL

Best damn chainsaw company in the WORLD.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad, As they say in the arena, "you strap 'em on and take your chances."



To paraphrase Charles Barkley: 

Joat, I don't know what kind of arena you play in, but the rest of us don't play in that kind of arena.


.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> It's as close as I'll ever get to making peace in the Middle East.
> 
> Joat



LOL. I'm in the basement by myself laughing out loud. You guys are a blast!


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> OK, I have an idea how to resolve this in a timely manner for my customer. My dealer said it may be 2-4 weeks before the rep will be back in his store to check this out. So, in the mean time, I'm going to check with bcorradi and see if he has any more of the 44.7mm OEM top ends. If he does, I will purchase that on my dime, port it, and return the saw to it's owner. He owes me nothing more than he has already paid.
> 
> But even better than that. One of you diehard Stihl guys ought to step up and buy this perfectly good P&C for what the replacement costs me, $85. I mean, it has only had a couple tanks of fuel through it. It's the same as new. Besides, there nothing wrong with it? Right? Come on now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.





joatmon said:


> SOLD!
> 
> Brad,
> 
> ...





blsnelling said:


> Don't even try to turn this around on me now



Brad, you made the offer and Joat stepped up and took your offer.

TT


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> To paraphrase Charles Barkley:
> 
> Joat, I don't know what kind of arena you play in, but the rest of us don't play in that kind of arena.
> 
> ...



Woodie,

Feels good to just view the 'bigs' from the sidelines doesn't it?

Joat


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Couldn't if I tried.
> 
> I have to give it to you Brad, you have stirred up the biggest hornets nest on AS in a long time.
> 
> I have had a great time with this one, how about you?



I knew it would be fun when I posted it. Why else do you think I went so over the top with it. I love a *healthy discussion*, lol.


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> "So, other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely priceless! 

And with that I've had enough and I have to go to bed cause I'm really beat. 

But I don't want to miss anything, especially now that it's getting silly, so I want everybody to turn off their computers until tomorrow, put your jammies on and go to bed. Don't forget to brush your teeth, but be careful of some of those toothbrushes from Brazil that are flooding the market! LOL


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> Brad, you made the offer and Joat stepped up and took your offer.
> 
> TT



So lets see. What can I do to this P&C that isn't obvious that would cause it to fry after a couple tanks? Now that would be worth the admission right there. Yes, I have a slightly sick side to me, LOL. I might even give him his money back


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Woodie,
> 
> Feels good to just view the 'bigs' from the sidelines doesn't it?
> 
> Joat



Joat, you've been back on the stihl bandwagon for just over three days now.

Aren't you ready for another switch?

Sincerely,
Woodie


.


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I knew it would be fun when I posted it. Why else do you think I went so over the top with it. I love a *healthy discussion*, lol.



Where Im from it's has something to do with a alligator and jaybird :greenchainsaw:


TT


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Absolutely priceless!
> 
> And with that I've had enough and I have to go to bed cause I'm really beat.
> 
> But I don't want to miss anything, especially now that it's getting silly, so I want everybody to turn off their computers until tomorrow, put your jammies on and go to bed. Don't forget to brush your teeth, but be careful of some of those toothbrushes from Brazil that are flooding the market! LOL



Spike,

I sleep in the raw, so, if it's all the same with you, I'll retire to seperate quarters.

Joat


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Absolutely priceless!
> 
> And with that I've had enough and I have to go to bed cause I'm really beat.
> 
> But I don't want to miss anything, especially now that it's getting silly, so I want everybody to turn off their computers until tomorrow, put your jammies on and go to bed. Don't forget to brush your teeth, but be careful of some of those toothbrushes from Brazil that are flooding the market! LOL



For real! At the rate we're going, there'll be 40-50 pages by tomorrow morning. How am I supposed to get any work done tomorrow? It'll take half the day just to catch up on this thread!


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Don't forget to brush your teeth



Just brush however many you got, 2K.



.


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So lets see. What can I do to this P&C that isn't obvious that would cause it to fry after a couple tanks? Now that would be worth the admission right there. Yes, I have a slightly sick side to me, LOL. I might even give him his money back



Brad,

You held out an offer and I responded in good faith.

Joat


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

One more thing.............There has been 30+ members on this thread since before I left the store at 6:00. 

NONE of us could find anything better to do tonight???


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> You held out an offer and I responded in good faith.
> 
> Joat



Gettin sceered are we?


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> One more thing.............There has been 30+ members on this thread since before I left the store at 6:00.
> 
> NONE of us could find anything better to do tonight???



Spike,

Well, Brad sold a defective, poor quality cylinder and I bought a diamond in the rough.

Joat


----------



## spike60 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Spike,
> 
> I sleep in the raw, so, if it's all the same with you, I'll retire to seperate quarters.
> 
> Joat



Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease do!


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> One more thing.............There has been 30+ members on this thread since before I left the store at 6:00.
> 
> NONE of us could find anything better to do tonight???



Something better than a good health discussion with my buds on AS? You must be kidding! Actually this is all just a ploy to help me get to 10K posts by the weekend, LOL.


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Gettin sceered are we?



Brad,

Not a chance. Now, let's see what Brown can do for me.

joat


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Spike,
> 
> Well, Brad sold a defective, poor quality cylinder and I bought a diamond in the rough.
> 
> Joat



Are you saying that you want me to grind a diamond out of that hunk a junk for ya? I'm sure I could find one in there.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I knew it would be fun when I posted it. Why else do you think I went so over the top with it. I love a *healthy discussion*, lol.



What I have been looking for.

You admit to yellow journalism. 

You will sleep better now that we all know that it was the attention that you seek that drove you to write such a sensationalistic post.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> Not a chance. Now, let's see what Brown can do for me.
> 
> joat



So long as bcorradi can help me out with a new one. I'll be sure to reply as soon as he does.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> What I have been looking for.
> 
> You admit to yellow journalism.
> 
> You will sleep better now that we all know that it was the attention that you seek that drove you to write such a sensationalistic post.



Nuttin':greenchainsaw: but the truth! Embrace it. It will set you free!


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Are you saying that you want me to grind a diamond out of that hunk a junk for ya? I'm sure I could find one in there.





blsnelling said:


> So long as bcorradi can help me out with a new one. I'll be sure to reply as soon as he does.



Brad,

Don't get weak in the knees on me. Man up, send the saw with no caveats and you'll get the money.

Joat


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

spike60 said:


> NONE of us could find anything better to do tonight???





joatmon said:


> Well, Brad sold a defective, poor quality cylinder and I bought a diamond in the rough.



Well, Brad sold a defective, poor-quality cylinder, and Joat bought a defective, poor-quality cylinder.


.


----------



## joatmon (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Well, Brad sold a defective, poor-quality cylinder, and Joat bought a defective, poor-quality cylinder.
> 
> 
> .



Woodie,

You won't believe this. I just had an intense feeling that PT Barnum looked down on me and smiled.

joat


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> Don't get weak in the knees on me. Man up, send the saw with no caveats and you'll get the money.
> 
> Joat



Crystal clear.....


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

*Woodie, what is all that barking about quality control??? Would you rather replace a cylinder or a whole freaking case halve???

Brahahahahahahaha*

Husky #1 Husky #1


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Woodie,
> 
> You won't believe this. I just had an intense feeling that PT Barnum looked down on me and smiled.
> 
> joat



Joat,

Why would I have a hard time believing someone was looking down at you?

Woodie

    


.


----------



## Justsaws (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Like I said earlier and most of you guys know, I'm a Stihl head at heart. But you WON'T find an inferior cylinder like this on a 372. Mahle all the way. For that matter, the cylinders I've seen off of 359s look much better than this.



You need to look at more 359s, and some of there other not so polished products.

Zama carbs have been made in China for decades.

The problem is with Stihl quality control, not the Chinese, your logic makes you sound racist. What would you be calling this issue if all the parts came from Africa. This might be a small issue but at least place the blame squarely where it belongs, STIHL Quality Control. 

And yes the quality of many Stihl products is in a downward spiral compared to the good old days.

This is also one of those topics that is not brand specific.


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> *Woodie, what is all that barking about quality control??? Would you rather replace a cylinder or a whole freaking case halve???*


*

A case half.

It would be easier.



.*


----------



## Tzed250 (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> *Woodie, what is all that barking about quality control??? Would you rather replace a cylinder or a whole freaking case halve???
> 
> Brahahahahahahaha*
> 
> Husky #1 Husky #1






It is on now..

oh...hold on...

Bookerdog has me all wound up about a 576...it could happen.




Take a look at the post tally...it is like a "who's who" of AS...




.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

Justsaws said:


> You need to look at more 359s, and some of there other not so polished products.
> 
> Zama carbs have been made in China for decades.
> 
> ...



You are indeed correct my friend. My beef is not with the race, just the quality of the product. Lesson learned.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> *Woodie, what is all that barking about quality control??? Would you rather replace a cylinder or a whole freaking case halve???
> 
> Brahahahahahahaha*
> 
> Husky #1 Husky #1



Well well well, my goodness look at that, why that is my 372. Man look at that quality there, nice bevel hole thats suppose to be flat. Oh my Woodie, Brad, their quality is really going down hill, oppps wait, that dayummm thing is almost 3 years old now, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe Stihl is just now catching up with Husky , whatcha think Woodie, is that what they are doing, hell if Husky can put out ChiCom garbage we can too, awwwwwwwwwwww. 

:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Brad, if Joat for some reason doesn't snag that cylinder, I'll be happy to have it in my box-o-parts. I can send a check.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You are indeed correct my friend. My beef is not with the race, just the quality of the product. Lesson learned.



Ok Brad you got a beef, do I??


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> A case half.
> 
> It would be easier.
> 
> ...



Replacing a case half would be easier, Woodie thats pitifull, you just told everyone you don't have a clue. Don't worry about it though, I'll always be your friend,wink!


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> *Woodie, what is all that barking about quality control??? Would you rather replace a cylinder or a whole freaking case halve???
> 
> Brahahahahahahaha*
> 
> Husky #1 Husky #1





THALL10326 said:


> Well well well, my goodness look at that, why that is my 372. Man look at that quality there, nice bevel hole thats suppose to be flat. Oh my Woodie, Brad, their quality is really going down hill, oppps wait, that dayummm thing is almost 3 years old now, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe Stihl is just now catching up with Husky , whatcha think Woodie, is that what they are doing, hell if Husky can put out ChiCom garbage we can too, awwwwwwwwwwww.
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:




(Man I hate to do this and to a couple fellow Sthilheads too.) 


Can any of you guys post another picture of the same defect on another saw????


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well well well, my goodness look at that, why that is my 372. Man look at that quality there, nice bevel hole thats suppose to be flat.



Trying to change the subject again, Tom? Your post is old news. It's already had its day in court. 

If you recall, it went something like this:

You: My Husky was poorly machined!
Us: You're right!

To date, you haven't provided any other example of that same mistake, so it's obvious it was a one-off flub in Husky's machining and/or quality control. 

But many are now complaining (and providing proof) of stihl's crappy quality on their cylinders, and it's happening on several different models.

I'd say stihl has a problem.

And like I said earlier, if you would just admit that and fall on your stihl sword, this wouldn't be going so badly for you guys.


.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

We're good to go joatmon. The new P&C is bought.


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

400 posts in 10 1/2 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> (Man I hate to do this and to a couple fellow Sthilheads too.)
> 
> 
> Can any of you guys post another picture of the same defect on another saw????



Awww your sneaking, you post a Stihl saw case that looks like that, hmmmm


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Trying to change the subject again, Tom? Your post is old news. It's already had its day in court.
> 
> If you recall, it went something like this:
> 
> ...



Woodie you've already made it known you don't have clue when you said changing the case half would be easier than swapping a cylinder. You may as well sit back and read, your secret is out,LOLOLOL


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Awww your sneaking, you post a Stihl saw case that looks like that, hmmmm



Why should he have to?

This is another misdirection on your part.

I've got a stihl blower with one tube that's the wrong diameter for the other. Can you post me a blower from any other company with that problem?

FALL ON YOUR SWORD, TOM HALL!!


.


----------



## Erick (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Awww your sneaking, you post a Stihl saw case that looks like that, hmmmm



Not being sneaky at all Tommie, just wondering where is the rest of the proof of an ongoing issue???? :dunno:

Could just be you got a bad *ONE*, that happens ya know.


----------



## xwray (May 7, 2009)

*Just a quick observation*

I could have missed it but couldnt this have been simply a case of somebody asleep at the switch? Is the belief that *all* Brazilian parts (or Chinese parts for that matter) are poorly made/executed? Or, might the guy who was supposed to be checking the qualily have screwed up and this, or several, got by? 

In my very younger days I used to drink a soda called Pal. It was kind of an orange drink and it was bottled not far from where I lived. They had a big window you could look in that showed the bottling machinery and inspectors at work. Such was facinating to a kid like me and I stopped by there several times. Each filled bottle passed by a bright light and supposedly each bottle was inspected by somebody. One day I opened a bottle and luckily I saw the 2-3 inches of filth in the bottom of the bottle before I took a swig. 

Swigs happen!

I stihl drank them.

Just wonderin'


----------



## blsnelling (May 7, 2009)

So now we'll never know if Stihl would have replaced it

Joatman, I need to schedule an appointment. This whole ordeal has really shaken me. I'm just so disappointed. I really don't know if I can let this go. I mean, what's to become of our beloved toys with this kind of stuff getting through?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> A case half.
> 
> It would be easier.
> 
> ...



You are as stupid as ya look too. You want to swap bearings and reseal the cases?


----------



## bookerdog (May 7, 2009)

Erick said:


> (Man I hate to do this and to a couple fellow Sthilheads too.)
> 
> 
> Can any of you guys post another picture of the same defect on another saw????



LMAO one stealhead beating down another stealhead. Priceless


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Why should he have to?
> 
> This is another misdirection on your part.
> 
> ...



Why should I have to post another ChiCom junk Husky, isn't one enuff for you, are you saying your a glutting for your own punishment,LOLOL

Woodie I do have a screwdriver pic here, how bout we post that with the story behind it so the fine folks will know how much you really know about small power equipment, naaaaaaaaaa I can't do that to ya, just don't seem right, once was enuff,hehe


----------



## Woodie (May 7, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Woodie you've already made it known you don't have clue when you said changing the case half would be easier than swapping a cylinder. You may as well sit back and read, your secret is out,LOLOLOL



Watch me here, Tom...this is what you should do:

*I, Woodie, am not a saw mechanic. I do not do my own wrenching. Tom is right: I was clearly wrong in my assessment of saw maintenance.*

See? That's how it's done. When you're wrong, you're wrong. I was.

And so are you.

Face it, Tom...stihl quality is proving to be mighty, mighty...

...

...

wait for it...

...


...


average.


.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Why should he have to?
> 
> This is another misdirection on your part.
> 
> ...



Did you see ali get punchdrunk in his last fight. Were seeing it again with thall LOLOLOLOOL


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Erick said:


> (Man I hate to do this and to a couple fellow Sthilheads too.)
> 
> 
> Can any of you guys post another picture of the same defect on another saw????



I'm sure if that one got out, others did too. Now if the "others" owner is on here, well that is a slim chance and I'll bet if it were any of the husky lovers, it would go unspoken.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Erick said:


> Not being sneaky at all Tommie, just wondering where is the rest of the proof of an ongoing issue???? :dunno:
> 
> Could just be you got a bad *ONE*, that happens ya know.



Yup could be but I can say I've never seen a Stihl case screwed up like that one, have you? It also affects the performance of the saw, it runs out of oil way before it runs out of gas, I should start a thread,hahaha Seems I read in this thread there are some shady 359 cylinders out there too, you hear anything about that,hehe


----------



## 04ultra (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Watch me here, Tom...this is what you should do:
> 
> *I, Woodie, am not a saw mechanic. I do not do my own wrenching. Tom is right: I was clearly wrong in my assessment of saw maintenance.*
> 
> ...












.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Face it, Tom...stihl quality is proving to be mighty, mighty...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



How about that case woodie?? Hahahahaha, I'm sending you all my bearing jobs from now on.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Erick (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> LMAO one stealhead beating down another stealhead. Priceless



You stay out of this or I'll take your bottle of Loctite.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> It also affects the performance of the saw, it runs out of oil way before it runs out of gas, I should start a thread,hahaha



You already did. A couple years ago.

It had its day in court. 

Why do you keep trying to change the subject?


.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Watch me here, Tom...this is what you should do:
> 
> *I, Woodie, am not a saw mechanic. I do not do my own wrenching. Tom is right: I was clearly wrong in my assessment of saw maintenance.*
> 
> ...



Glad you admit it once and for all, you wouldn't know the differance between quailty anymore than that screwdriver,LOLOL

Yes Woodie the cylinder looked poor, the 372 looks even worse, admit it..


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'm sure if that one got out, others did too.



How can you be so sure? Based on your sample size of...one?


.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Glad you admit it once and for all, you wouldn't know the differance between quailty anymore than that screwdriver,LOLOL
> 
> Yes Woodie the cylinder looked poor, the 372 looks even worse, admit it..



Ouch, that is going to leave a mark. You sure ole woodies heart can take such a beating??


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Erick said:


> You stay out of this or I'll take your bottle of Loctite.





the best thing is I don't have to say a thing the proof is in the pudding


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Glad you admit it once and for all, you wouldn't know the differance between quailty anymore than that screwdriver,LOLOL
> 
> Yes Woodie the cylinder looked poor, the 372 looks even worse, admit it..




Still trying the misdirect? 

As I said earlier, one does not need to be a software engineer to be able to recognize poor-quality software.

And if you'd been paying attention, you would have caught the part where I said that the Husky did indeed have a poorly-machined case.

But you can't provide even *anecdotal* evidence that it's a recurring problem.

Which is what this thread is all about. Stihl quality is overrated.


.


----------



## 04ultra (May 8, 2009)

04ultra said:


> .


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> How can you be so sure? Based on your sample size of...one?
> 
> 
> .



So now it is ok because there is only one? I'm not sure that there are others but there is a good chance some are floating around. That chance can be claimed by other poor QC that has came from said brand, it took alittle bit to be posted but poor quality is coming from husky also. I'm sure you knew that though.


----------



## Erick (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Yup could be but I can say I've never seen a Stihl case screwed up like that one, have you? It also affects the performance of the saw, it runs out of oil way before it runs out of gas, I should start a thread,hahaha



Nope can't say I've ever seen that on a Stihl case, but then again I wouldn't expect to...... just like I wouldn't expect to see that cylinder (or the others I've seen) on a Stihl either. 



THALL10326 said:


> Seems I read in this thread there are some shady 359 cylinders out there too, you hear anything about that,hehe



Why yes I have.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Glad you admit it once and for all, you wouldn't know the differance between quailty anymore than that screwdriver,LOLOL
> 
> Yes Woodie the *cylinders tom * looked poor, the 372 looks even worse, admit it..



*Thats cylinders tom * timberwolfs pics


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

04ultra said:


> .



Now where did that come from,LOLOLOL

Somebody was having a fit because he couldn't find a short enuff screwdriver to adjust that blower. He was hollering its a quality problem at Stihl, poor design, blah blah blah. Anyone wanna guess who that guy was???


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> the best thing is I don't have to say a thing the proof is in the pudding



Sure is, that case in that pic is done. It would take a careful hand with a tig to fix that big f up, then machine it back out correctly and hope it works. I'd rather swap a cylinder, unlike woodie, LOL. Bad thing is that it is the flagship saw and over $700.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> *Thats cylinders tom * timberwolfs pics



I saw em Booker. I think some 359 cylinder pics are on the way...


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

four saw builders have remarked on steals poor quaility cylinders for the last year. One punch drunk fighter has remarked on huskys case. You make the choice


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Bad thing is that it is the flagship saw and over $700.



The good thing is that it was only one.




.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I saw em Booker. I think some 359 cylinder pics are on the way...



Is the 359 considered a pro saw?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Sure is, that case in that pic is done. It would take a careful hand with a tig to fix that big f up, then machine it back out correctly and hope it works. I'd rather swap a cylinder, unlike woodie, LOL. Bad thing is that it is the flagship saw and over $700.



I think I'm gonna pull a Brad. I'm gonna take that saw to the Husky dealer and showem what I found hidden. I think they are gonna tell me to take a hike, just don't seem fair,LOL


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Now where did that come from,LOLOLOL
> 
> Somebody was having a fit because he couldn't find a short enuff screwdriver to adjust that blower. He was hollering its a quality problem at Stihl, poor design, blah blah blah. Anyone wanna guess who that guy was???



Had to be, none other than, our favorite punching bag, WOODIE!!!!


----------



## indiansprings (May 8, 2009)

I wonder what defense Space would come up with if Stihl decided to pursue litigation against Brad for malicious, inaccurate claims that they claimed caused the sale of 026 to fall off, first the inaccurate accusation of parts originating in China, the cylinder effecting performance, etc, etc. 
Stihl would have it pretty easy defending, they would just have to show that the saw performed to the factory spec of hp claims, probably would last just as long at wot as the mahle cylinder, i do agree the cylinder looks like hell, Brad could have approached the issue differently, many people on this site take his word as gospel, he is an invaluable contributor, I personally have learned significantly from his post. He should have run the traps before inaccurately calling it a chicom part and he can't prove how it will perform or speak to it's durability, hell we don't even know what the compression was.
Face it NO STOCK SAW WILL EVER MEET BRAD'S STANDARD REGARDLESS OF BRAND. That the bottom line of this thread.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Is the 359 considered a pro saw?



Beats me, don't have a clue what it is. Is the 372 a pro saw??


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I think I'm gonna pull a Brad. I'm gonna take that saw to the Husky dealer and showem what I found hidden. I think they are gonna tell me to take a hike, just don't seem fair,LOL



I call bull Spike offered many times to help you out with that. Think back old timer LOLOLOLOLOLOLO


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I think I'm gonna pull a Brad. I'm gonna take that saw to the Husky dealer and showem what I found hidden. I think they are gonna tell me to take a hike, just don't seem fair,LOL



Be sure to put it's diaper on.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> four saw builders have remarked on steals poor quaility cylinders for the last year. One punch drunk fighter has remarked on huskys case. You make the choice



Dog layin' the smack down!!

What I love is that 2K and Tom have been preaching Stihl quality for so long that they actually believe it's the best.

And when presented with evidence that it really isn't...they attack the messengers, try to change the subject dozens of times, and attempt to prove how the ends justify the means.

I just think this is hilarious. 

.


----------



## Erick (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I think I'm gonna pull a Brad. I'm gonna take that saw to the Husky dealer and showem what I found hidden. I think they are gonna tell me to take a hike, just don't seem fair,LOL



If you had taken it in when it was stihl under warranty it would have been replaced no problem I'm sure.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Beats me, don't have a clue what it is. Is the 372 a pro saw??



Your talking the 359 cylinder weren't ya. LMAO


----------



## wigglesworth (May 8, 2009)

:monkey: WOW. This is still going......... Here is some good reading on quality...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_(business)........and now back to our regularly scheduled program.....Mama's Family


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Is the 359 considered a pro saw?



I consider it to be, sure cuts like one.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> I call bull Spike offered many times to help you out with that. Think back old timer LOLOLOLOLOLOLO



Awwwwww but Booker thats not the point, were talking quality. I'm upset with my quality Booker, what should I do?,LOLOLOLOL


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Erick said:


> If you had taken it in when it was stihl under warranty it would have been replaced no problem I'm sure.



O and the stealhead just hits the old man with a uppercut. LMAO


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Had to be, none other than, our favorite punching bag, WOODIE!!!!



2K, your nose is so bloody it's getting harder and harder to see the brown left on it from Tom's a$$.



.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Erick said:


> If you had taken it in when it was stihl under warranty it would have been replaced no problem I'm sure.



Really, so it does have a quality issue, thank you,haha

Hey wait a minute, that case is not a moving part, it doesn't wear so should it still be covered????


----------



## Erick (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Really, so it does have a quality issue, thank you,haha



I don't think anybody was questioning that???? :dunno:


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Dog layin' the smack down!!
> 
> What I love is that 2K and Tom have been preaching Stihl quality for so long that they actually believe it's the best.
> 
> ...



Well, here we have a cylinder that looks bad, yup, BAD. Will it run and preform as it should? Sure.

Now, we have a case halve that looks bad, yup, BAD. Will it oil? Yup and will empty the oil tank faster than the exxon valdez. 

You won't see the 260 customer come back, you will see the 372 owner, all peed off and wanting to know WTH is up and why his jeans are soaked.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I consider it to be, sure cuts like one.



Well husky homeowners saws always cut like stihl pro model saws. must be the same cylinder. LOL


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> 2K, your nose is so bloody it's getting harder and harder to see the brown left on it from Tom's a$$.
> 
> 
> 
> .



I just Pissed myself. LMAO


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> 2K, your nose is so bloody it's getting harder and harder to see the brown left on it from Tom's a$$.
> 
> 
> 
> .



LOL, when can I send some of these bearing jobs? Maybe you can help me adjust my BG85?? I know you like long screwdrivers...

If anyone got made a fool tonight, it was you, ROFLMFAO!!!


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Well husky homeowners saws always cut like stihl pro model saws. must be the same cylinder. LOL



Bad 359 cylinders also? What what what???


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Well, here we have a cylinder that looks bad, yup, BAD. Will it run and preform as it should? Sure.
> 
> .



how do you know it will


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> LOL, when can I send some of these bearing jobs? Maybe you can help me adjust my BG85?? I know you like long screwdrivers...
> 
> If anyone got made a fool tonight, it was you, ROFLMFAO!!!



*Stihl #1! Stihl #1!*


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> how do you know it will



I'm *second* in line to pay $85 for it.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *Stihl #1! Stihl #1!*



Husky #1 Husky #1


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Well, here we have a cylinder that looks bad, yup, BAD. Will it run and preform as it should? Sure.





bookerdog said:


> how do you know it will



*Because STIHL made it!!

STIHL #1! STIHL #1!*


.


----------



## Sawdustmaker (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling 63
THALL10326 50
Woodie 43
2000ssm6 41
Tzed250 41
bookerdog 31
joatmon 21
Erick 20
spacemule 18
spike60 13
PA Plumber 10
BlackCatBone 9
PatrickIreland 8
Fastcast 8
Trigger-Time 7
FATGUY 7
Evan 6
epicklein22 6
Jacob J. 4
Paul001 4
wigglesworth 4
Sawdustmaker 4
AZLOGGER 3
04ultra 3
Grande Dog 3
cuttinstuff 3
PlantBiologist 3
striperswaper 2
Nitroman 2
taxmantoo 2
whitedogone 2
Zodiac45 2
landyboy 2
CHEVYTOWN13 2
7sleeper 1
TRI955 1
litefoot 1
maico490 1
indiansprings 1
rxe 1
wanab 1
Tree Sling'r 1
Urbicide 1
Peacock 1
xwray 1
bcorradi 1
danrclem 1
funky sawman 1
Justsaws 1
Northwind 1
computeruser 1
gink595 1


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'm *second* in line to pay $85 for it.



ya and how do you know it will. Now were not taking about cutting cookies for your tea party. Putting it in the seat of your prisa and driving around town.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'm *second* in line to pay $85 for it.



You're *sloppy* seconds in line to pay $85 for it.


.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *Because STIHL made it!!
> 
> STIHL #1! STIHL #1!*
> 
> ...



At steal camp mr hall told me so.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> ya and how do you know it will. Now were not taking about cutting cookies for your tea party. Putting it in the seat of your prisa and driving around town.



I'll run the pee out of it and got a donor saw ready right now, if it blows all to heck, I got 7 more cylinders to go. Either way, it won't keep me from buying another Stihl.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *Because STIHL made it!!
> 
> STIHL #1! STIHL #1!*
> 
> ...



Because Pullon made it!!

Husky #1 Husky #1


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'll run the pee out of it and got a donor saw ready right now, if it blows all to heck, I got 7 more cylinders to go. Either way, it won't keep me from buying another Stihl.



So your going to cut up 100 to 200 cords with it Huh?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> At steal camp mr hall told me so.



Fire fire fire, LOLOLOLOL.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> So your going to cut up 100 to 200 cords with it Huh?



Even better, quarter them with the saw.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'll run the pee out of it and got a donor saw ready right now, if it blows all to heck,* I got 7 more cylinders to go*. Either way, it won't keep me from buying another Stihl.



It sounds like with steal quality now you will need all 7 LOLOLOLOLOLO


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> It sounds like with steal quality now you will need all 7 LOLOLOLOLOLO



Got 7 and can get more, doubt I'll make it past the 1st one though.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

All right boys, time for bed.

Besides, how can I possibly hold up any longer against 2K's clever 'mirror-image' Pullon retorts?

(Dog, he won't get that; please explain it to him if you're up for it.)

Have fun.

(And FALL ON YOUR SWORD, TOM HALL!!)

.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

I'm out too, later ya'll!


----------



## Erick (May 8, 2009)

Well you fellas have fun I'll catch up later, I gotta get some sleep so I can work on some saws and trimmers in the morning...... those would be Stihl, Husqvarna, Dolmar, Redmax, and Shindiawa saws and trimmers. 

Ya see, my bread gets buttered on both sides so I'm free to call'em like I see'm. 

Fight the good fight boys.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

well night all went well Not to many panties in a twist.


----------



## bigbadbob (May 8, 2009)

First book I've read in a while, whew!!!


----------



## parrisw (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Awww your sneaking, you post a Stihl saw case that looks like that, hmmmm



Answering a question with a question, changing subjects. Your running around in circles ol Tommy, your slipping.


----------



## peter399 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> STIHL #1!! STIHL #1!! It's the largest selling brand in the known universe!! There is nothing wrong with that cylinder, it was made by Stihl, and they're #1!!!
> 
> *Stihl #1!*​
> 
> .


----------



## Justsaws (May 8, 2009)

It is interesting that during an era when the EPA regs are tightening, the implementation of a cylinder design could be that poor. You would think that it would be a logical step to have cylinders and pistons with better and more consistent overall fit and finish than a lot of the new saws have.


----------



## Spitzer (May 8, 2009)

Brad, you are so right in what you are saying. Stihl tools have sold on a solid reputation as a top quality engineered product for many years and most people ( but apparently not all ) who pay a premium price for their pro stuff want the best quality and rightly so. Folks who put their faith in stihl products and pay up to, lets say a $1000 US or £1000 GBP have every right to be disappointed if the drop in quality as in the photo's, is now going to be the norm. Performance aint the issue here, but the big drop in quality for the premium prices what Stihl charge joe public surely is the issue. If joe public only wants that sort of quality in his hands, he aint gonna want to pay premium. Brad, well done for starting this thread and showing some fact of whats going on. I've spent well over £2000 on Stihl products recently and seeing that cylinder dont make me feel too good.


----------



## wanab (May 8, 2009)

you want to see Tommy's I-beam???


----------



## spike60 (May 8, 2009)

Morning everybody! I'm all caught up now on what I missed on the late show here. 

A few opening remarks before I head to the store. The 372 pics clearly show a defective crankcase that should have, and would have, been replaced under warranty by Husky.

The bigger issue is this: What Husky will not say, is that the crankcase in question was sourced from an off-shore factory because they were running low on the good ones. 

Husky doesn't switch to aftermarket parts in order to keep building saws. 3 or 4 years ago, I was told that a couple of models were backordered because they ran out of cylinders and were waiting for Mahle to catch up. 

Switching to those cylinders fom Brazil, (which are clearly not as good as those from Mahle regardless of whether or not Stihl has ownership in the factory), is what my Dad calls "pulling a fast one" on the customer. It might be great for the guy in Virginia Beach building them, but it's not so great for the guy who ends up with the saw. 

So, it's not just a quality issue, it's also a trust and ethics issue. Is Stihl doing the right thing by using these lesser quality cylinders in order to keep the line moving and fill orders? Has Stihl violated the trust of their customers in going this route?

Keep this in mind: The 372 crankcase was a mistake; a cylinder from Brazil is a decision. Big difference.


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Fast if it runs fine what is the problem.



You know damn well what the problem is....It's a disgrace....That jug is cast from a mold. This isn't a one time deal sport. Every jug that comes out of that mold is going to be close to identical.

That's your pride and joy ya know the company we also have to have our noses rubbed in on regular bases by you and a few others, how they're far superior in quality, engineering and of course sales and this is why people will pay extra for Stihl....Well I guessit looks like they're losing that so called edge you're always bragging about and you're trying to cover your trail like a 12 year old school boy. 




THALL10326 said:


> How it looks and how it runs is really a matter of opinion.



Yea, and how it looks and how it shoots when you buy a new Benelli shotgun is a matter of opinion huh? If the fit and finish on the cast parts of the premium priced Benelli looked anything like a Stoeger or Mossburg how long do you think people would continue pay the premium Benelli price?

Once again 12 year old school boy logic and anyone with 1/2 a brain can see you're squirming, trying to cover for this crap Stihl is putting out on pro saws......How long have you really known about this?




THALL10326 said:


> Course now you see a lack of quailty, of course you do. That said can you post some pics of the cylinders on your machines, I mean there may be a lack of quality in there you don't know about, I'm sure I'll be able to spot some for ya,



For starters, my camera isn't near the quality of Brad's and I couldn't get pictures like that if I wanted to. Further more, you own a 5100 (which is one that I also own) go out to your own shed and take a look at it for yourself. If the finish work on the outside is any indication of what's on the inside they're not even in the same league. 

Continue on T-Bone


----------



## RandyMac (May 8, 2009)

Don't you just hate it when icons fall.


----------



## peter399 (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Because Pullon made it!!
> 
> Husky #1 Husky #1



Husqvarna has the Poulan brand for low cost consumer saws, they don't secretly put Brazilan or Chinese jugs in pro grade saws like Stihl does with the 260, 460 and 660. Lucky you to have a 440 2K, it's not a 372 but at least it's not made in China :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

Mornin' fellers! It didn't take me as long to get caught up this morning as I feared, lol.



indiansprings said:


> He should have run the traps before inaccurately calling it a chicom part.


So we're in a court of law now. Details are important here. Go back to the thread title and my first post. Key words..."*Looks like *Chicom garbage". And it's a fact that it does. Matter of fact, it looks worse than some. Sorry, didn't get me on that one. I personally believe this is far more of a real issue than, "Stihl just ran out of good Mahle cylinders". Reguardless, they shouldn't be installing greatly inferior cylinders when Mahle can't keep up. IMHO, that's down right unethical.



2000ssm6 said:


> I'm *second* in line to pay $85 for it.


Sorry 2000ssm6, it's already paid for. I could always pick up the new 260 Pro my dealer has that looks to have the same sloppily cast cylinder. Same yellow paint mark and all.


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

spike60 said:


> And one more thought: We Husky and Jonny guys shouldn't gloat over this because if Stihl gets away with it, we could be next.



They would only get away with it once. I would charter a plane to Sweden and swiftly kick the Husky official in the ass.


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> I just Pissed myself. LMAO



Dog,

So, you think you're a 441 now?

Call my office for an appointment,

dr. joat


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Dog,
> 
> So, you think you're a 441 now?
> 
> ...



Hey, what about my appointment?


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So now we'll never know if Stihl would have replaced it
> 
> Joatman, I need to schedule an appointment. This whole ordeal has really shaken me. I'm just so disappointed. I really don't know if I can let this go. I mean, what's to become of our beloved toys with this kind of stuff getting through?





blsnelling said:


> Hey, what about my appointment?



Brad,

You jumped into the water exactly as you had planned. You just got in a little deeper than you wanted. The fear set in, but you kept treading. Stay in the shallow end for a few days and then feel free to get back in the deep water again. Buck up Brad. It was tough, but you survived.

I see no need for an appoinment,

dr. joat

PS: pretty nurse - no charge for the Mr. Snelling consult.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Brad,
> 
> You jumped into the water exactly as you had planned. You just got in a little deeper than you wanted. The fear set in, but you kept treading. Stay in the shallow end for a few days and then feel free to get back in the deep water again. Buck up Brad. It was tough, but you survived.
> 
> ...



But what about the pretty receptionist?


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> But what about the pretty receptionist?



Brad,

She's at the receiving dock waiting for that cylinder.

dr. joat


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Dog,
> 
> So, you think you're a 441 now?
> 
> ...



Have you talked to your nurse Tammy fay hall about all these app.


----------



## peter399 (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> They would only get away with it once. I would charter a plane to Sweden and swiftly kick the Husky official in the ass.



I know a purchaser at Husqvarna. I'll ask her to tell her colleagues for chainsaw part purchase to never do what Stihl has done  

Stihl purchase now has to issue a new RFQ.

Part description: "Made in China" sticker.
Yearly volume = Total 260+460+660 sales


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

> Part description: "Made in *Brasil*" sticker.
> Yearly volume = Total 260+460+660 sales



Correction made


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Have you talked to your nurse Tammy fay hall about all these app.



Yea, just when it looked like he was coming to his senses, he got a medicinal dose of Stihl dope from MR Hall. 

Poor Joat!.....Kind of feel bad for the ole guy!


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

peter399 said:


> I know a purchaser at Husqvarna. I'll ask her to tell her colleagues for chainsaw part purchase to never do what Stihl has done
> 
> Stihl purchase now has to issue a new RFQ.
> 
> ...



So huskapullon has never shot their selves in the foot?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Yea, just when it looked like he was coming to his senses, he got a medicinal dose of Stihl dope from MR Hall.
> 
> Poor Joat!.....Kind of feel bad for the ole guy!



Joat's purty nurse fixed me up with the #1 drug, LOL. Going to look at another Stihl today, hope the cylinder is good.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Joat's purty nurse fixed me up with the #1 drug, LOL. Going to look at another Stihl today, hope the cylinder is good.



If it was made in the last year chances are its not.


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> If it was made in the last year chances are its not.



If it was made in the past 40 years probably not.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> If it was made in the last year chances are its not.



Do you think I will check?


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

I can just see nurse tammy fay hall now. He's out looking high and low for any kind of husky defect. 

Craigslist AD virgina
Wanted husky saws only with defects will pay any amount. Just please hurry. contact TFhall


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 8, 2009)

Stihl have a reputation they need to hold up - in the UK, a concrete saw, or kerb cutting saw, is pretty much universally referred to as a "Stihl saw" - because we have far fewer wood burners, and far fewer trees, and far fewer chainsaws. If I went into a hire shop and asked for a Stihl saw, I'd get a concrete cutter, regardless of the make. 
It's like Hoover. I don't "vacuum clean" my carpet, I hoover it. If stihl want to keep up that reputation, they need to avoid "running out of cylinders". Otherwise soon I might have to go and ask for a "Dyson saw" next time I need to cut concrete...


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> So huskapullon has never shot their selves in the foot?



Are you finally admitting that Stihl has done that here?



.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> I can just see nurse tammy fay hall now. He's out looking high and low for any kind of husky defect.
> 
> Craigslist AD virgina
> Wanted husky saws only with defects will pay any amount. Just please hurry.



That case wasn't bad enough for ya? LOLOLOL


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> i can just see nurse tammy fay hall now. He's out looking high and low for any kind of husky defect.
> 
> Craigslist ad virgina
> wanted husky saws only with defects will pay any amount. Just please hurry. Contact tfhall



*LMFAO!!*

a
.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Do you think I will check?



Nope you just asked.


----------



## Meadow Beaver (May 8, 2009)

Yeap that looks exactly like the 038magII jug I have, I'm still not sure wheter I should port this :censored::censored: cylinder or not. :monkey:


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Yeap that looks exactly like the 038magII jug I have, I'm still not sure wheter I should port this :censored::censored: cylinder or not. :monkey:



Grind all the defects out


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> That case wasn't bad enough for ya? LOLOLOL



A truck load of cylinders or one case. You make the choice. LMAO


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Morning everybody! I'm all caught up now on what I missed on the late show here.
> 
> A few opening remarks before I head to the store. The 372 pics clearly show a defective crankcase that should have, and would have, been replaced under warranty by Husky.
> 
> ...



Great stuff...all of it.

But the last sentence hits like a frickin' hammer.


.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Are you finally admitting that Stihl has done that here?
> 
> 
> 
> .



Nope, they have stayed true to their name, and remain #1 for that reason. Now if a few bad castings raise some brows in the QC department, great. However, I don't think a few guys on AS taking saws apart to "nit pick" these castings will change their ways. You got to remember that we are a super small portion of sales for brands, 99.9% of their customers are not going to check their cylinders. Would I like to see better work? Yup but if I stray, 100 others will fill my shoes.


----------



## Meadow Beaver (May 8, 2009)

Like you said Brad these ports are :censored: goofy.


----------



## adamc (May 8, 2009)

Hi all,

Others have danced around these points, but I wanted to state them in a clearer way. I am not a fan-boy of any brand, but for the purpose of full disclosure, I own a Dolmar.

Whether or not this cylinder will perform to specs or not, this thread (and any other discussions like it) should have been reason enough for Stihl to have rejected it (and any others like it).

Stihl brags about not being sold at big-box stores, their dealer network, etc. and enjoys a reputation and place in the market as a premium product with a premium price.

To use the car analogy again, some Toyota models are built both in the US and Japan. Some Toyota buyers will only accept Japanese built models because their is a perception on their part that the QC is better. I am a Toyota owner and I believe this is a stain on their reputation, but I also have to admit that I have seen Toyota's quality decline (too much GM influence IMO!)

Yes, the vast majority of Stihl saws are sold to non-pros who will not open up their saws or put enough use on them for sub-par cylinders to matter. However, their reputation is built on the testimonials of pro users. Perception is reality, and when pros hear about/notice the sub-par cylinders, they will perceive a decline in quality (even if performance is the same). When the pros (a few percent of the market) drift away from Stihl, the HO's will too (the vast majority of the market).

One last point that I don't believe has been made... if the Brazilian cylinders perform and last just as well as Mahle and only LOOK better, why in the world would Stihl still be using Mahle instead of their own? Wouldn't they only use the more expensive out-source when they couldn't keep up with their own demand instead of the other way around?

Lastly, as I said, I am not even a Stihl owner, I am no fan-boy or hater. I just like throwing gasoline on fires!

Adam


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Nope you just asked.



If it runs good, nope, going to leave it be. Are you going to check all your husky cylinders?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Keep this in mind: The 372 crankcase was a mistake; a cylinder from Brazil is a decision. Big difference.



Wrong, that case should have never left QC.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Nope, they have stayed true to their name, and remain #1 for that reason. Now if a few bad castings raise some brows in the QC department, great. However, I don't think a few guys on AS taking saws apart to "nit pick" these castings will change their ways. You got to remember that we are a super small portion of sales for brands, 99.9% of their customers are not going to check their cylinders. Would I like to see better work? Yup but if I stray, 100 others will fill my shoes.



Same thing homelite said.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Wrong, that case should have never left QC.



Right it was a mistake it left. Steal's was a decision to make the cylinders in brasil.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> If it runs good, nope, going to leave it be. Are you going to check all your husky cylinders?



ya there all checked before there modded.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> ya there all checked before there modded.



:agree2:


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Right it was a mistake it left. Steal's was a decision to make the cylinders in brasil.



Have I mentioned anywhere that this was not a mistake on Stihl's end????


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> ya there all checked before there modded.



So a bad casting would be moot?


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> So a bad casting would be moot?



An honest mistake made right is acceptable, a bad decision is not.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Same thing homelite said.



Remind me again why husky dropped net sales for the 1,000th time?


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Have I mentioned anywhere that this was not a mistake on Stihl's end????



no it wasn't steals mistake it was there decision to put it in there pro saws.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Remind me again why husky dropped net sales for the 1,000th time?



Because they stopped sales when they ran out of Mahle cylinders while Stihl swapped out for junk


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Because they stopped sales when they ran out of Mahle cylinders while Stihl swapped out for junk



lmao


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> An honest mistake is acceptable, a bad decision is not.



True, and every brand makes bad decisions, lets hope Stihl pays alittle more attention in the future.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Because they stopped sales when they ran out of Mahle cylinders while Stihl swapped out for junk



No, they stopped to get back into dealer only and help save what little shops they have around. Their box store and net sales sell out hurt the name pretty bad. I'm all for dealer only, any brand.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> True, and every brand makes bad decisions, lets hope Stihl pays alittle more attention in the future.



finally the kid admitted it. It took awhile but, he comes around


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> no it wasn't steals mistake it was there decision to put it in there pro saws.



mistake, decision? Tomato or tomato?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> finally the kid admitted it. It took awhile but, he comes around



Check my first post in this thread, dummy...


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Check my first post in this thread, dummy...



lmao


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> lmao


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> That's your pride and joy ya know the company we also have to have our noses rubbed in on regular bases by you and a few others, how they're far superior in quality, engineering and of course sales and this is why people will pay extra for Stihl....Well I guessit looks like they're losing that so called edge you're always bragging about and you're trying to cover your trail like a 12 year old school boy.
> 
> {snip}
> 
> ...you're squirming, trying to cover for this crap Stihl is putting out on pro saws......How long have you really known about this?



Tom, what Fast has said here is spot-on.

Now...here's the thing: I goofed last night with all the 'fall on your sword' stuff. Why? Because indirectly, Stihl pays your bills. And you should never mess with a man's livelihood. (Unless it's funny, and you think you can get away with it.) So thinking you're going to admit to Stihl's goof here is a little foolish on my part. I'll admit that.

And I know you and 2K really think you got one over on me by highlighting my ignorance when it comes to saw-building. But I'll readily admit to that...I couldn't take apart one of my own saws with a grenade. (But if you need some hand-cut, half-blind dovetails, or if you need someone to bat to right with men on first and second...I'm your man.) Just like I said with software, though...you don't need to be a programmer to spot crappy code. The proof is in the pudding. 

I just want to see less...less squirming is all. You and 2K are running around the fact that Stihl is being a little unethical here, and there's no getting around that fact. And if you don't believe me, since I don't wrench, and can't _possibly_ know what I'm talking about...well...listen to the dozens of other self-professed Stihl fans who've said the same thing. 

And keep in mind...in the future, when you and 2K start going on and on about Stihl's quality and ethics...well I'm just likely to be there.

With the URL to this thread in hand.




.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tom, what Fast has said here is spot-on.
> 
> Now...here's the thing: I goofed last night with all the 'fall on your sword' stuff. Why? Because indirectly, Stihl pays your bills. And you should never mess with a man's livelihood. (Unless it's funny, and you think you can get away with it.) So thinking you're going to admit to Stihl's goof here is a little foolish on my part. I'll admit that.
> 
> ...



Its great to have upstanding citizens like yourself on this site woodie.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tom, what Fast has said here is spot-on.
> 
> Now...here's the thing: I goofed last night with all the 'fall on your sword' stuff. Why? Because indirectly, Stihl pays your bills. And you should never mess with a man's livelihood. (Unless it's funny, and you think you can get away with it.) So thinking you're going to admit to Stihl's goof here is a little foolish on my part. I'll admit that.
> 
> ...



We both said it didn't look good. On a serious note, If you ever need help wrenching on a saw, give me a holla and I'll try help as much as I can.


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> We both said it didn't look good. On a serious note, If you ever need help wrenching on a saw, give me a holla and I'll try help as much as I can.



Hey Woodie, I prefer you send it to me. I don't want you to get a saw back from 2K with baby making juice on the pretty red and black.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> We both said it didn't look good. On a serious note, If you ever need help wrenching on a saw, give me a holla and I'll try help as much as I can.



Thanks man...but the first time you bill me for 'new muffler bearings,' I'm gonna know something... 


.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Thanks man...but the first time you bill me for 'new muffler bearings,' I'm gonna know something...
> 
> 
> .



I got a good deal on wd40 valves.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

*Dayummmmmmmm*

This thread is still going, gotta love it, the pack gets a bone and they can't stop chewing. I can't help but sit here and laff when another man just got sent here from TCS, he was told by them to come over here and get a quote "real saw", don't waste your money on quote "that junk we sell" meaning Husqvarna. This isn't the first time , this is one of many times they have sent people away from their rack to me. Since the wolves are howeling Stihl quailty I'm proud to say its getting pretty pathtic when the folks across town are either too stupid or too embarrassed to even at least try to sell those beloved things I'm hearing have all the quality. 

So keep on howeling boys while I as the preacher said in Oh Brother Where Art Thou, see you boys in the funny paper,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I got a good deal on wd40 valves.



SWEET! I had to replace all mine when the oil-change place filled my tires with metric air!!


.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> This thread is still going, gotta love it, the pack gets a bone and they can't stop chewing. I can't help but sit here and laff when another man just got sent here from TCS, he was told by them to come over here and get a quote "real saw", don't waste your money on quote "that junk we sell" meaning Husqvarna. This isn't the first time , this is one of many times they have sent people away from their rack to me. Since the wolves are howeling Stihl quailty I'm proud to say its getting pretty pathtic when the folks across town are either too stupid or too embarrassed to even at least try to sell those beloved things I'm hearing have all the quality.
> 
> So keep on howeling boys while I as the preacher said in Oh Brother Where Art Thou, see you boys in the funny paper,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Ya and its funny when the guys are sent to the husky saw shop here to get a saw. Instead of the john deere,garden,grass seed, steal dealer.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

So Tom, are you comparing the home owner Huskies from TSC to your pro Stihl saws?


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> so tom, are you comparing the home owner huskies from tsc to your pro stihl saws?



lmao


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So keep on howeling boys while I as the preacher said in Oh Brother Where Art Thou, see you boys in the funny paper



Tom Hall, you couldn't even read the funny papers if you had the Cliff's Notes to 'em.


.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tom Hall, you couldn't even read the funny papers if you had the Cliff's Notes to 'em.
> 
> 
> .



no but the gal can type a mean craiglist ad. lol


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> SWEET! I had to replace all mine when the oil-change place filled my tires with metric air!!
> 
> 
> .



LOL, I'm installing tires now.


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> This thread is still going, gotta love it, the pack gets a bone and they can't stop chewing. I can't help but sit here and laff when another man just got sent here from TCS, he was told by them to come over here and get a quote "real saw", don't waste your money on quote "that junk we sell" meaning Husqvarna. This isn't the first time , this is one of many times they have sent people away from their rack to me. Since the wolves are howeling Stihl quailty I'm proud to say its getting pretty pathtic when the folks across town are either too stupid or too embarrassed to even at least try to sell those beloved things I'm hearing have all the quality.
> 
> So keep on howeling boys while I as the preacher said in Oh Brother Where Art Thou, see you boys in the funny paper,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Hey tommie ol boy, if those boys at TSC got commission for the saws they sold you bet your arse they would be selling them for their first born. TSC hires 18 year olds and expects them to be *** experts. Hell, even the old farmers that work there barely know anything about ***. TSC isn't a "brand" store, and the employees don't feel obligated to sell one brand or the other. They also don't give a rats arse if they go to your place to buy a saw, you should be thankful that TSC hires idiots.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So Tom, are you comparing the home owner Huskies from TSC to your pro Stihl saws?



No Brad, I'm comparing the two companies as a whole, one in which some of their sellers are delibertly sending their customers to the competitor for whatever reason. This happens quite often here, I've made mention of this before so maybe you would like to explain why, can you?


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 8, 2009)

Hey guys! Did I miss anything from page 11 onward? lol


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

I'll say this much. I doubt it has anything to do with Stihl quality or Huskies lack thereof. It has to do with TSCs inability to be a good *** dealer. In this case it was Huskies "bad decision" to set up their dealer network, or lack thereof, as they have.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tom Hall, you couldn't even read the funny papers if you had the Cliff's Notes to 'em.
> 
> 
> .



Woodie I can read 1.6cu.in verses 1.6Hp, that ring a bell from yesterday Woodie, your too easy Woodie, why do you even bother, ya must like me, thats cool, I like you too,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Gologit (May 8, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Hey guys! Did I miss anything from page 11 onward? lol



Nope. And I read the whole thing. I can't explain why I did that and now my head hurts.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> ya must like me, thats cool, I like you too,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



You realize I don't play for that team, right Tommy?



.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I'll say this much. I doubt it has anything to do with Stihl quality or Huskies lack thereof. It has to do with TSCs inability to be a good *** dealer. In this case it was Huskies "bad decision" to set up their dealer network, or lack thereof, as they have.



Beats me Brad but I'll tell ya this, I'll be happy to sell their customers anything they send them here for. I got some ole boy named Tony that I do not know from adam at Home Depot doing the samething, sending them here. I think whats going on is they are sick of the headache when people bring them back. I myself love it..


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Nope. And I read the whole thing. I can't explain why I did that and now my head hurts.



You read the entire thing? I thought you were smarter than that Bob.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> You realize I don't play for that team, right Tommy?
> 
> 
> 
> .



I realize your a follower Woodie, but thats alright, I don't mind. In fact I enjoy it,


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 8, 2009)

Hey Tom, do you know what the testing and acceptance procedure is for a saw at the Stihl factory? I mean if a saw is rated at 3hp, what does it have to make at the factory to ship?


----------



## 7sleeper (May 8, 2009)

I finaly reached the end!!! Yippee 

Please don't post anymore because I have other things to do now and will only be able to continue tomorrow!

Great thread Brad! Great to stand up to the heavy critacism thrown at you! 

As you said quite correctly : *premium price= premium product* is what I believe everyone expects.

7


----------



## Stihl Crazy (May 8, 2009)

Maybe your saw came from hhttp://www.alibaba.com/member/id105988957.htmlere,

MS 880 for $285.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Nope. And I read the whole thing. I can't explain why I did that and now my head hurts.



You read the whole thing, you shoulda joined in Bob, its fun to sit around and hash out non-sense, I get a kick out of it,


----------



## Meadow Beaver (May 8, 2009)

I think it's stupid that STIHL can't just build the saw in Brazil with MAHLE parts, but they've gotta have these jugs that you'd find in a harbor freight saw. I wouldn't bother me if they make all their saws in Brazil, but they need to have MAHLE P&C.


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> This thread is still going, gotta love it, the pack gets a bone and they can't stop chewing. I can't help but sit here and laff when another man just got sent here from TCS, he was told by them to come over here and get a quote "real saw", don't waste your money on quote "that junk we sell" meaning Husqvarna. This isn't the first time , this is one of many times they have sent people away from their rack to me. Since the wolves are howeling Stihl quailty I'm proud to say its getting pretty pathtic when the folks across town are either too stupid or too embarrassed to even at least try to sell those beloved things I'm hearing have all the quality.
> 
> So keep on howeling boys while I as the preacher said in Oh Brother Where Art Thou, see you boys in the funny paper,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



I'll tell you exactly what it is....It's some dopey, Stihlbillie, fanboy who if his manager found out what he was doing, would be terminated on the spot. Why, because he's sending sales away from TSC because his own ignorant prejudice toward one manufacture over the other.....In other words hurting his own lively hood by hurting the company that employs him.

He is not sending customers to you for the so called superior Stihl quality reasons you are trying to pawn off. This really is an ignorant man doing this.....At least you know where your bread is buttered and will obviously protect that at any cost.

The fanboy at TSC is a fool, plain and simple....You, on the other hand are not a fool but just plain silly trying to use such an asinine example to prove your Stihl superiority propaganda.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> Hey Tom, do you know what the testing and acceptance procedure is for a saw at the Stihl factory? I mean if a saw is rated at 3hp, what does it have to make at the factory to ship?



Each saw is run and calibrated in the test cells. Samples from each batch are sent over to the emmisions lab and dyno. If they pass the batch or run is shipped, if any of the samples fail the entire batch or run is halted. This batch I'm talking about is usually 200 saws or more. Not every unit is put on a dyno or tested for emmisions, only the samples of each batch.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> I'll tell you exactly what it is....It's some dopey, Stihlbillie, fanboy who if his manager found out what he was doing, would be terminated on the spot. Why, because he's sending sales away from TSC because his own ignorant prejudice toward one manufacture over the other.....In other words hurting his own lively hood by hurting the company that employs him.
> 
> He is not sending customers to you for the so called superior Stihl quality reasons you are trying to pawn off. This really is an ignorant man doing this.....At least you know where your bread is buttered and will obviously protect that at any cost.
> 
> The fanboy at TSC is a fool, plain and simple....You, on the other hand are not a fool but just plain silly trying to use such an asinine example to prove your Stihl superiority propaganda.



Temper temper. Fast if your gonna be a follower in the pack play nice. I agree with you however yeah those guys are screwing up overthere and I guess you expect me to go tell their bosses, get grip ole boy. Far as propaganda this whole thread is propaganda I assume to tear down the big boys and your part of it so what makes you the judge here on propaganda,hmmmmmmmmm


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No Brad, I'm comparing the two companies as a whole, one in which some of their sellers are delibertly sending their customers to the competitor for whatever reason. This happens quite often here, I've made mention of this before so maybe you would like to explain why, can you?



Sounds familiar but, the other way round here. Can you explain why?


----------



## xwray (May 8, 2009)

I still don't understand if the "discussion" is about the Stihl QC process failing one or more times or if the issue is that ALL parts from Brasil and/or China are just plain mediocre even if the work. 

In my mind the former is lamentable but fixable...the latter smacks of management decision and direction and may be not be so easily fixable and could quite seriously damage the Stihl's reputation.

Not being a lumberjack I bought a Stihl because I ran across this site while trying to figure out what brand I wanted and perceived that Stihl was a quality saw and I like to buy quality tools. 

It's hard to build a good reputation and harder still to restore one once damaged.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Sounds familiar but, the other way round here. Can you explain why?



Booker I no clue but then again , is TCS and Home Depot selling Stihl out your way, if so that may be the reason......


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Beats me Brad but I'll tell ya this, I'll be happy to sell their customers anything they send them here for. I got some ole boy named Tony that I do not know from adam at Home Depot doing the samething, sending them here. I think whats going on is they are sick of the headache when people bring them back. I myself love it..



I can't blame you Tommy. You offer a great service to your customers. They're much better off anyway.


----------



## BlackCatBone (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Each saw is run and calibrated in the test cells. Samples from each batch are sent over to the emmisions lab and dyno. If they pass the batch or run is shipped, if any of the samples fail the entire batch or run is halted. This batch I'm talking about is usually 200 saws or more. Not every unit is put on a dyno or tested for emmisions, only the samples of each batch.



That is interesting. The central message by most here that say "it ain't pretty but it functions correctly" is that the bad attributes of the casting haven't hurt anything regarding performance or service life. 

Since the saw most definitely doesn't make max power at the factory, and is likely not dyno tested, there is really no way of knowing if the lousy looking casting hurt performance. I will be especially looking forward to Joat's experience with the cylinder to see what's what.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

xwray said:


> I still don't understand if the "discussion" is about the Stihl QC process failing one or more times or if the issue is that ALL parts from Brasil and/or China are just plain mediocre even if the work.
> 
> In my mind the former is lamentable but fixable...the latter smacks of management decision and direction and may be not be so easily fixable and could quite seriously damage the Stihl's reputation.
> 
> ...



Good post, thats why you always have to consider the sources. Half these guys have no interest what so ever in this thread other than to pile on, some will tell you its easier to change a case than a cylinder, so much for that source. Some like ole Fast just like to torment me. I enjoy it myself. Just remember when there is a good thread about Stihl this same bunch will jump in and try to twist it, same ole same ole, gotta love it.....


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Temper temper. Fast if your gonna be a follower in the pack play nice. I agree with you however yeah those guys are screwing up overthere and I guess you expect me to go tell their bosses, get grip ole boy. Far as propaganda this whole thread is propaganda I assume to tear down the big boys and your part of it so what makes you the judge here on propaganda,hmmmmmmmmm



I'm no follower and you should know that as well as anyone.....The followers are the majority (not all) of your customers who walk into the Stihlership like a hoard of drones, who are doing nothing more than buying a name they perceive to be the best, based on an excellent marketing campaign....BTW, the marketing is one of the things Stihl does with superiority over their competition and their dealer network but build quality?....We'll argue that till the cows come home.

No propaganda here on my part....I just call 'em like I see 'em....A spade is a spade with me and if you can't see the fallacy in this decision by Stihl to use this crap (for profit) regardless of the detriment of their reputation, than you're lost buddy.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

Should we expand this discussion to include the sheetmetal rods gound in Stihl homeowner saws? Or the piston crowns too thin to withstand removing a clutch with a scrench?:greenchainsaw: Oh great. Now I'm doomed to read 25 more pages when I get back home in a couple hours!


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

*We interrupt this thread...*

...for a quick look at THALL and 2K's relationship, and how it all began:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FmHOteBVqKI&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FmHOteBVqKI&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Who knew THALL could fly?

And now back to our regularly-scheduled bashing.

.


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

xwray said:


> It's hard to build a good reputation and harder still to restore one once damaged.



Finer words have not been spoken on this thread....Obviously an intelligent man, who should chime in more often! 

Rep, sent your way!


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Should we expand this discussion to include the sheetmetal rods gound in Stihl homeowner saws? Or the piston crowns too thin to withstand removing a clutch with a scrench?:greenchainsaw: Oh great. Now I'm doomed to read 25 more pages when I get back home in a couple hours!



Good grief....Did you have to kick 'em when they're down?


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

Wow...nice pot metal connecting rod.

BUT IT HAS TWO RINGS!! THAT MAKES IT QUALITY!! 



.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Booker I no clue but then again , is TCS and Home Depot selling Stihl out your way, if so that may be the reason......



sorry no home depot of tsc out this way.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Should we expand this discussion to include the sheetmetal rods gound in Stihl homeowner saws? Or the piston crowns too thin to withstand removing a clutch with a scrench?:greenchainsaw: Oh great. Now I'm doomed to read 25 more pages when I get back home in a couple hours!



Duh, It is because you didn't use an impact wrench.:hmm3grin2orange:

Check my sig everyone, send those crappy saws to me!!!!!


----------



## knockbill (May 8, 2009)

i read most of this thread, and it seems to me the natural progression of things... if stihl, or any other manufacturer, finds a way to save money on a product, they will jump at teh chance, all their competitors will also,,, they are still # one in sales right?? but you have to compare todays products with todays products,,, remember the old story of teh 2 guys getting chased by teh bear,,, one says to teh other, i don't have to out run the bear, i just have to out run you,,,


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> ...for a quick look at THALL and 2K's relationship, and how it all began:
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FmHOteBVqKI&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FmHOteBVqKI&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
> 
> ...


LMAO you are a bad man woodie.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> LMAO you are a bad man woodie.



Try as I might I couldn't find any decent Skipper and Gilligan clips...


.


----------



## wigglesworth (May 8, 2009)

I thought they made stihl parts in a turkish prison???


----------



## Taxmantoo (May 8, 2009)

Brad, it's not too late to hit the "go advanced" button while editing the original post, and I think that will let you edit out Chicom and edit in Brazilian in the title. Looks like you've still got 20 minutes left.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

*But eventually, 2K and THALL's relationship grew...'deeper'*

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-xuugq7fito&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-xuugq7fito&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 8, 2009)

Stihl has been useing non-Male cylinders off and on for years.
If it depends on the cylinder not have the word Mahle on it.

Below 

1-066 WO/Mahle.........One of my 066 milling saw's has one of the WO/Mahle

8-064's two W/Male, 6 WO/ Mahle

1-056 WO/Mahle.....I have some W/Mahle

1-024 WO/Mahel

Before you go try to see if your cylinder has Mahel on it. Mahle on some cylinders is on the very base
of cylinder and it will be very hard to see, if you can see it at all.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> I'm no follower and you should know that as well as anyone.....The followers are the majority (not all) of your customers who walk into the *Stihlership* like a *hoard of drones*, *who are doing nothing more than buying a name they perceive to be the best, based on an excellent marketing campaign..*..BTW, the marketing is one of the things Stihl does with superiority over their competition and their dealer network but build quality?....We'll argue that till the cows come home.
> 
> No propaganda here on my part....I just call 'em like I see 'em....A spade is a spade with me and if you can't see the fallacy in this decision by Stihl to use this crap (for profit) regardless of the detriment of their reputation, than you're lost buddy.



Fast look at that, why the assumations, why the anger. It almost like your showing jealouscy there. You know Stihl and there customers about as much as a fly on the wall, thats calling like it really is now isn't it?? Ya gotta toss that crystal ball Fast..


----------



## danrclem (May 8, 2009)

If I were a Stihl dealer I would be very upset at the cylinder quality. If Stihl keeps on putting out poor quality parts it will hurt your livelihood down the road.


----------



## slinger (May 8, 2009)

If this doesn't draw Lake out I fear he has retired.:help:


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-xuugq7fito&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-xuugq7fito&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



Hahaha, thanks Woodie, you proved my point about the sources, when you don't have a clue just join it with some fun and hey I got no problem with that at all,


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

Tommie,

You got an old 026/260 that I can throw the "most talked about cylinder in the world" (aka MTACITW) on? There are some nice, pricey ones on eBay, but I'm not sure I want to go that route.

Joat


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> You got an old 026/260 that I can throw the "most talked about cylinder in the world" (aka MTACITW) on? There are some nice, pricey ones on eBay, but I'm not sure I want to go that route.
> 
> Joat



Is it a 44mm or 44.7mm ?...it should be 44.7mm


----------



## AZLOGGER (May 8, 2009)

*ASNN*
Arbor Site News Network
10:15am May 8, 2009
Due to the exposure by one of the nations best chainsaw modifiers, *STIHL* executives in Virginia Beach have announced their Chainsaw sales have plummeted. The issue is that they, (*STIHL*) have been using inferior parts on their ***, but are still charging the public premium prices on inferior products. They are traveling to Capitol Hill to meet with Government leaders, to seek some bailout funds, the amount requested has not been disclosed yet. This news seems to follow a pattern by many companies, ask for a Government handout when your own screwup causes your own demise.

*More news forthcoming as it becomes available!*


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Fast look at that, why the assumations, why the anger. It almost like your showing jealouscy there. You know Stihl and there customers about as much as a fly on the wall, thats calling like it really is now isn't it?? Ya gotta toss that crystal ball Fast..



Oh, come on Tommy.....You've said it yourself....The vast majority of Stihl customers are homeowners and we all know how much most (not all) of 'em care to know about chainsaws.


Check list below:


It has a chain that cuts trees....Good to go!
It's a Stihl...Ooooh boy...I bought a good one!
It uses fuel but is it really necessary to put oil in the fuel?
You mean dirt dulled my chain, isn't wood harder than dirt?
Oh, there's an air filter to clean, well no one told me that.
What bar oil? I thought the oil went in the gas.

:greenchainsaw:


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> Is it a 44mm or 44.7mm ?...it should be 44.7mm



TT,

Whoa! I forgot about that. Never had an 026/260. I'd best be careful. With a new piston for the 44.7 mm, will it matter?

Joat


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Should we expand this discussion to include the sheetmetal rods gound in Stihl homeowner saws? Or the piston crowns too thin to withstand removing a clutch with a scrench?:greenchainsaw: Oh great. Now I'm doomed to read 25 more pages when I get back home in a couple hours!




Well Brad I'm sorry you posted those. Now we can stettle the score about Stihl and you. Seems your hell bent to find anything you can and stick it up here. Well this time you stuck up something that proves you don't know what the hell your doing. So lets talk about this rod and piston and you tell me why it doesn't look like yours, I took them out, big differance isn't it but I do it for a living, not a hobby.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Is yours a quailty issue or a workmanship issue, I think its the latter isn't it..


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Hahaha, thanks Woodie, you proved my point about the sources, when you don't have a clue just join it with some fun and hey I got no problem with that at all,



Don't get mad because woodie has been giving you the smack down for almost a day now.


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> TT,
> 
> Whoa! I forgot about that. Never had an 026/260. I'd best be careful. With a new piston for the 44.7 mm, will it matter?
> 
> Joat



Yes, you need the right size piston for the cylinder. Also you will need
the spacer for muffler if its 44.7mm and it should be 44.7mm if it came off a new saw. See pdf file I posted about the spacer (post #595).


----------



## Paul001 (May 8, 2009)

danrclem said:


> If I were a Stihl dealer I would be very upset at the cylinder quality. If Stihl keeps on putting out poor quality parts it will hurt your livelihood down the road.



Depends on how much service work you do and how good your tech's are


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Is yours a quailty issue or a workmanship issue, I think its the latter isn't it..



Not so fast there, Sport. The piston in your pic has one ring, the piston in Brad's has two. That leads me to believe that the assembly you pulled out is probably older.

Part of the point Brad is making is that Stihl quality is descending over time...could this be more proof?


.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Don't get mad because woodie has been giving you the smack down for almost a day now.




LOL, Woodie couldn't smack down my ole grandmaw, I like ole Woodie though, he knows it..


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Not so fast there, Sport. The piston in your pic has one ring, the piston in Brad's has two. That leads me to believe that the assembly you pulled out is probably older.
> 
> Part of the point Brad is making is that Stihl quality is descending over time...could this be more proof?
> 
> ...



Furthermore, I don't see scored pistons.....Why did they need to be torn apart? opcorn:


----------



## Trigger-Time (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326;1535156[/IMG said:


> Is yours a quailty issue or a workmanship issue, I think its the latter isn't it..





Yes................See thread

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=81365

TT


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> Yes, you need the right size piston for the cylinder. Also you will need
> the spacer for muffler if its 44.7mm and it should be 44.7mm if it came off a new saw. See pdf file I posted about the spacer (post #595).



TT,

Thanks for your help.

Joat


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Not so fast there, Sport. The piston in your pic has one ring, the piston in Brad's has two. That leads me to believe that the assembly you pulled out is probably older.
> 
> Part of the point Brad is making is that Stihl quality is descending over time...could this be more proof?
> 
> ...




Look at the rod Woodie,hehehe same part. And yes some had single rings and some had two, course you wouldn't know that now would ya. However it does show theres a quailty issue with his work and my work. Should we assume Brad is now going downhill, his quality has fallen off, better not pay him for any work when you see work like that, all saw builders must do work like that, he's a saw builder and if he does non-sense like that they all must do work like that. Thats what he's saying about that cylinder, all BS finally makes a complete circle, his just caught up with him finally. I said you got to consider the sources so there you have it.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Furthermore, I don't see scored pistons.....Why did they need to be torn apart? opcorn:



Whatcha think of Brads work there Fast, come on I'm dying to hear it,LOLOL


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Look at the rod Woodie,hehehe same part. And yes some had single rings and some had two, course you wouldn't know that now would ya. However it does show theres a quailty issue with his work and my work. Should we assume Brad is now going downhill, his quality has fallen off, better not pay him for any work when you see work like that, all saw builders must do work like that, he's a saw builder and if he does non-sense like that they all must do work like that. Thats what he's saying about that cylinder, all BS finally makes a complete circle, his just caught up with him finally. I said you got to consider the sources so there you have it.



round and round we go where we stop nobody knows. LOL


----------



## wanab (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So lets talk about this rod and piston and you tell me why it doesn't look like yours, I took them out, big differance isn't it but I do it for a living, not a hobby.





LMAO!



thats about 3 times in this thread i wanted to made a point but the Master beatme2it!


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Look at the rod Woodie,hehehe same part. And yes some had single rings and some had two, course you wouldn't know that now would ya. However it does show theres a quailty issue with his work and my work. Should we assume Brad is now going downhill, his quality has fallen off, better not pay him for any work when you see work like that, all saw builders must do work like that, he's a saw builder and if he does non-sense like that they all must do work like that. Thats what he's saying about that cylinder, all BS finally makes a complete circle, his just caught up with him finally. I said you got to consider the sources so there you have it.



The issue is though we know steals quality is going downhill. There has been complaints about it for a year. I don't remember there being complaints before that. So 4 builders within the year have all said something about it. So wheather you like it or not its a happening. With there cylinders at least.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> round and round we go where we stop nobody knows. LOL




Does seem that way doesn't, but hell its just talk,


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Look at the rod Woodie,hehehe same part.



Same part? Maybe same *part #, *but is it possible that the one Brad pulled out was made...gasp!...in Brazil?



.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> The issue is though we know steals quality is going downhill. There has been complaints about it for a year. I don't remember there being complaints before that. So 4 builders within the year have all said something about it. So wheather you like it or not its a happening. With there cylinders at least.



Booker when the paying customers start complaining there is a issue Stihl will, like they always have, will striaghten it out. Saw building is fun, its a hobby but its so small the manufactures could care less what they think, in fact they despised that practice all together. Thats a well known fact the saw builders will not dare tell anyone. 4 builders opinions verses the entire buying population, get real Booker, even Tony Soprano would laff his azz off,LOLOL


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> round and round we go where we stop nobody knows. LOL



Dog,

I know where it'll stop. PM me if you must know.

At your service,

Joat


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Same part? Maybe same *part #, *but is it possible that the one Brad pulled out was made...gasp!...in Brazil?
> 
> 
> 
> .



Maybe maybe maybe, maybe I know how to do it and Brad doesn't, come on Woodie aren't ya gonna give ya ole buddy any credit at all, hehehe


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Dog,
> 
> I know where it'll stop. PM me if you must know.
> 
> ...



Its already stopped Joat. The huge fan club is now scratching thier heads wondering man that guy can't remove a piston and he's a authority on quality, hmmmmmmmmmm, what the hell did we fall for.

Sad lesson learned. Be carefull of stones that you throw, you know that song Joat, good one and true...


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Its already stopped Joat. The huge fan club is now scratching thier heads wondering man that guy can't remove a piston and he's a authority on quality, hmmmmmmmmmm, what the hell did we fall for.
> 
> Sad lesson learned. Be carefull of stones that you throw, you know that song Joat, good one and true...



Tommy,

Plenty of people have weighed in on the quality of that cylinder, and almost no one has said it's acceptable. 

The rest of this is a distraction.

And yes, I'll give my ol' buddy credit. But I wish you'd just admit it! You know stihl did it, just admit it!! 


.


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Whatcha think of Brads work there Fast, come on I'm dying to hear it,LOLOL



Here I thought we were talking about Stihl's ethics and workmanship but I'll proceed now to answer your question, to my question.

I think Brad is an enthusiast, who calls them like he sees them. I believe he likes saws, period, not just one brand of saw. Brad has a stable of Stihls that he also brags about regularly so to insinuate he's just a Stihl basher does say a lot about your bias opinions. 

Brad has no allegiance to one brand or the other, like you do, for obvious reason. I personally commend him for speaking out when sees crap he doesn't like. Unlike you who wants to sweep it under the rug and change topics and answer questions with more questions. 

Wether he made a mistake on that tear down is irrelevant to me. A sure way to learn, is screw up so you know what you've done wrong. He's learning, we are all learning everyday. It still doesn't speak well of the steel being used or the cheesie rod. 

There you have it and remember you asked my opinion.


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Its already stopped Joat. The huge fan club is now scratching thier heads wondering man that guy can't remove a piston and he's a authority on quality, hmmmmmmmmmm, what the hell did we fall for.
> 
> Sad lesson learned. Be carefull of stones that you throw, you know that song Joat, good one and true...



Tommie,

Well, throw another dog on the woodie. I mean another log on the woodpile. There's a spark down there and they'll fan the flames with their keyboards and their lips and we'll see a few more attempts to discredit Stihl and The Champ.

Pop open a cool Pepsi, sit back and enjoy. You earned it.

joat


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Booker when the paying customers start complaining there is a issue Stihl will, like they always have, will striaghten it out. Saw building is fun, its a hobby but its so small the manufactures could care less what they think, in fact they despised that practice all together. Thats a well known fact the saw builders will not dare tell anyone. 4 builders opinions verses the entire buying population, get real Booker, even Tony Soprano would laff his azz off,LOLOL



Wasn't Tony Soprano a crook. So you saying Steals a LMAO


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> Well, throw another dog on the woodie. I mean another log on the woodpile. There's a spark down there and they'll fan the flames with their keyboards and their lips and we'll see a few more attempts to discredit Stihl and The Champ.
> 
> ...



I like this saying, "Mess with the bull, ya get the horns". This thread was doomed from the start, finally done now.:hmm3grin2orange:

I wonder if 2009 will be another record sales mark for Stihl?


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I like this saying, "Mess with the bull, ya get woodie and the dog". This thread was doomed from the start, finally done now.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I wonder if 2009 will be another record sales mark for Stihl?



Brian,

Fixed it for ya.

joat


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I like this saying, "Mess with the bull, ya get the horns". This thread was doomed from the start, finally done now.



Done? Calling something done, and having it be over, are two separate things.

We wouldn't have gotten near to two-thirds of a thousand posts on this thread had you and Tommy not tried to defend that which has no reputable defense.



2000ssm6 said:


> I wonder if 2009 will be another record sales mark for Stihl?



Wonder when all these cylinders will start failing...

.


----------



## indiansprings (May 8, 2009)

I wonder who stands behinds the modded saws when they come unwound at 15k, I wouldn't want one if my lively hood depended on it. I bet my muffler modded only 361 will be running long after the heavily modded 361 pushing 15k gives up the ghost. Although I have a lathe and a mill and am quite proficient in running both, I won't touch the internals of a saw other than muffler modding and playing with a junk saw that I don't give a crap if it blows or not. We have to use our saws on a daily basis on the farm and cutting wood for income supplement during the winter. If they run, cut and have no durability issues they get the job done, I'm sure not pulling a cylinder off to just look at it. I'm not dedicated to any brand, I run the JD (efco) saw as much as any and can't wait to get the old dolmar up and going.
I bet any good stihl dealer or husky dealer would stand behind their product if the cylinder posted was found to be the cause of a saw failure, I know the dealer I have used for thirty years wouldn't even hesitate. I doubt Brad would send me a new saw if I had one he modded suffered catastrophic failure after four of five tanks of gas, that's the difference. Modded saws have their place, it's for those that tinker, race and like cutting cookies against a stopwatch, even for faller that don't care about longevity, just having the baddest saw in the woods, with today's machining and casting technology it would be easy for Stihl or Husky to duplicate saw builders tricks on the assembly line, but then they have the epa to answer for and the customer who wants reliability and dependability of a saw operating in the design range.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> Pop open a cool Pepsi, sit back and enjoy. You earned it.



Meanwhile Tommie, you'll keep getting worked like a part-time job here...



.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Done? Calling something done, and having it be over, are two separate things.
> 
> We wouldn't have gotten near to two-thirds of a thousand posts on this thread had you and Tommy not tried to defend that which has no reputable defense.
> 
> ...



I believe the reason ya'll boys are so tore up is that all these cylinders were made in 2008, according to booker. 2008 was Stihl's best year for sales while husky dropped. Now you tell me if this were a big problem, would it show in sales?


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Booker when the paying customers start complaining there is a issue Stihl will, like they always have, will striaghten it out. Saw building is fun, its a hobby but its so small the manufactures could care less what they think, in fact they despised that practice all together. Thats a well known fact the saw builders will not dare tell anyone. 4 builders opinions verses the entire buying population, get real Booker, even Tony Soprano would laff his azz off,LOLOL



Who cares builders or not 2 yo you never heard a builder btch about sthils quality. Now in the last year you have. Quality has gone down.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I like this saying, "Mess with the bull, ya get the horns". This thread was doomed from the start, finally done now.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I wonder if 2009 will be another record sales mark for Stihl?



It was done last night when you admitted it yourself. Just like a old fightter old tommie boy tries to stay around to long


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Who cares builders or not 2 yo you never heard a builder btch about sthils quality. Now in the last year you have. Quality has gone down.



Quality goes down but sales fly up?


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I believe the reason ya'll boys are so tore up is that all these cylinders were made in 2008, according to booker. 2008 was Stihl's best year for sales while husky dropped. Now you tell me if this were a big problem, would it show in sales?



Eventually...yes.

Remember...way back when, the Big Three were some of the most respected auto manufacturers in the world.

Then they took their eyes off of quality...

.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> It was done last night when you admitted it yourself. Just like a old fightter old tommie boy tries to stay around to long



I said it didn't look good. I also put $85 on the table and say this cylinder will run and run well. This thread has taken a big turn, LOL.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I believe the reason ya'll boys are so tore up is that all these cylinders were made in 2008, according to booker. 2008 was Stihl's best year for sales while husky dropped. Now you tell me if this were a big problem, would it show in sales?



Did I say 2008 or did I say within the last year. Its 4 month into 2009


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I said it didn't look good. I also put $85 on the table and say this cylinder will run and run well. This thread has taken a big turn, LOL.



no you said mistake


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Eventually...yes.
> 
> 
> .



Well until that day, you stay in your dark hole and come up with something better than a few cylinders that "look bad".


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Unlike you who wants to sweep it under the rug and change topics and answer questions with more questions.
> 
> .



He sure didn't want to sweep mr drippy under the rug.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> no you said mistake



A mistake that didn't look good, hahahahahaa. Ya'll will never win but ya did put up a good fight.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> He sure didn't want to sweep mr drippy under the rug.



Nope, on top of the rug, don't want to mess up that nice hardwood floor.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Did I say 2008 or did I say within the last year. Its 4 month into 2009



You said within the last year. I got a 211 made in that time that runs like a raped ape, must have a cylinder that was "a mistake and doesn't look good"???


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Nope, on top of the rug, don't want to mess up that nice hardwood floor.



did you get rug burn


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> You said within the last year. I got a 211 made in that time that runs like a raped ape, must have a cylinder that was "a mistake and doesn't look good"???



It might who knows.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> A mistake that didn't look good, hahahahahaa. Ya'll will never win but ya did put up a good fight.



So ya amitted it twice now. LOLOLOLOLOLO


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

Hey Book, 

How long you think Skipper and Gilligan will keep this up?

Sincerely,
Woodie


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> It might who knows.



Oh, now it might, LOL. You guys are a riot.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> So ya amitted it twice now. LOLOLOLOLOLO



And? I'm missing the point...


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

Well boys, while you are going round and round I am going home to enjoy a cold beer with the future Mrs.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Hey Book,
> 
> How long you think Skipper and Gilligan will keep this up?
> 
> ...



Well woodie I don't know. I will be here though to protect the public.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> And? I'm missing the point...



huh? DA


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Well boys, while you are going round and round I am going home to enjoy a cold beer with the future Mrs.



congrats on the beer. O and the future miss to


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> How long you think Skipper and Gilligan will keep this up?





bookerdog said:


> Well woodie I don't know. I will be here though to protect the public.




Yeah...they're never gonna get off the island.



.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> huh? DA



Huh? CS


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Yeah...they're never gonna get off the island.
> 
> 
> 
> .



And yet you stihl stay in the closet, LOLOLOL.


----------



## ericjeeper (May 8, 2009)

*beg for rep?*

Is this a good place to beg for rep?
Otherwise this topic has went totally out of reality.


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

Trigger-Time said:


> Is it a 44mm or 44.7mm ?...it should be 44.7mm



Brad,

Is this cylinder (TMTACITW) a 44.7 mm or a 44 mm? The change documentation is dated 12.2007, so a 2008 buy would make this questionable.

Thanks,

Joat


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

ericjeeper said:


> Is this a good place to beg for rep?
> Otherwise this topic has went totally out of reality.



Rep sent!


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

ericjeeper said:


> Is this a good place to beg for rep?
> Otherwise this topic has went totally out of reality.



Yup, rep sent.


----------



## Taxmantoo (May 8, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> I wonder who stands behinds the modded saws when they come unwound at 15k, I wouldn't want one if my lively hood depended on it.



Several guys here run modded saws because it's their livelihood. 
Seems like I recall one guy saying that cutting an extra load of logs in a day puts an extra $80 in his pocket, and the mods pay for themselves in half a week.


----------



## belgian (May 8, 2009)

Dang you heathens, it took me more than an hour to catch up with the latest breaking news about Stihl quality....  


I've spent a ton of money on good quality equipment in my life and expect value for my bucks. From a functional point of view, Tzed and others may be right as to the performance of the cylinder being the major issue, but judging by the obvious poor quality of that cast, there's enough suspicion in my mind to doubt the quality and longevity of that cylinder.

If you buy a top quality wrench for example, it may still have an ideal functionality, but if the casting is poor with a very bad finish, you'd have a hard time justifying the price and the quality.

That cylinder is an embarrassement for the Stihl brand, period, and I don't care wheather it's made in China, Germany or Brasil. If I found one like that on any of my pro saws, I'd deposit it personally at the Stihl front door in Waiblingen with a note that they just lost a loyal customer. 


Spike's post is dead on.




spike60 said:


> I've got as many buddies on this site that are Stihl guys as I do Husky and Jonny guys, so truthfully, I'm not enjoying this thread too much. (But I'm sure glad that it's not a Husky cylinder that's in question.) But I do have a few points I want to make.
> 
> That cylinder is an embarassment, and the real hard-core Stihl guys that are trying to defend it by saying it would run OK, sound at best evasive, and at worse, just plain silly. There are a lot of Stihl guys on the other hand that are not too biased to call it as they see it. If this was Husky cylinder I would just cringe. I would not really be surprised to see stuff like this cropping up on some of the less expensive homeowner saws, regardless of brand. But on a pro saw, that costs more, but is outperformed by it's chief competitors, anyone with an open mind has to say, "Hey, wait a minute!" It may run, but for how long? I can't conceive of something like that holdng up like all of the 031's and 028's that are still out there.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

belgian said:


> Dang you heathens



That's some funny stuff right there Belgian! :hmm3grin2orange:

BTW.....Good post, all around!


----------



## Wild Knight (May 8, 2009)

OK, 44 pages later I will confess I haven't read every post. So if this is already discussed I apologize.

First off: yes, I am a Stihlhead, and no I am not defending them. I just have a question for which I don't know the answer. 

While casting marks are ugly, do they really represent any sacrifice to the reliability of the saw? I realize that Brad and Brian are really good saw builders, and they pay great attention to very fine details. So, while they see obvious areas where things could have been done better, I have to ask if it really matters. Does it affect how Stihl engineers designed the saw to run at stock RPM's on Marathon fuel with leftover boat 2-cycle oil? Does it affect the reliability of the saw? Life of the saw? If it still starts every time and runs manufacture spec RPM's, well, then are these (flaws from Brad's pics) points in the manufacturing of the saw where they can cut costs?

I like to think of target vs military grades guns, or truck vs ferrari motors. Low grade guns has machine marks all over them, but they fire every time. Glocks will feed any ammo any time no matter how much you neglect it. Will it outshoot a custom 1991? Heck no, but those target grade 1911's a lot of times don't feed reliably. An old ford motor will start and run everytime. Will it outperform a ferrari motor? Hell no, but again, you can use any gas from any pump in any temperature at any altitude and not have to service it every 1000 miles. What separates it from a ferrari motor doesn't make it less reliable. You can fine tune anything, but looser tolerance often equates to better reliability, especially for the average guy.

Point being, if you are going for reliability, certain manufacturing corners can be cut that you would not be able to cut for a fine tuned machine. What exactly are we seeing in Brad's pics?

Thank you, I'll take my answer off the air.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

belgian said:


> Dang you heathens, it took me more than an hour to catch up with the latest breaking news about Stihl quality....



:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:



belgian said:


> Tzed and others may be right as to the performance of the cylinder being the major issue, but judging by the obvious poor quality of that cast, there's enough suspicion in my mind to doubt the quality and longevity of that cylinder.
> 
> If you buy a top quality wrench for example, it may still have an ideal functionality, but if the casting is poor with a very bad finish, you'd have a hard time justifying the price and the quality.



I remember years ago an airline executive talking about cleaning off the seat trays. He said something to the effect that, if a passenger looks at a dirty seat tray in front of them, they wonder what the insides of the engine look like.

What we can't see from those pictures is what the quality of the casting looks like *internally.* Are there bubbles? Is the metal up to snuff? Are there other microscopic flaws that will cause cracking in the future?

No way to know. But perception can be reality sometimes...


.


----------



## wigglesworth (May 8, 2009)

> OK, 44 pages later I will confess I haven't read every post. So if this is already discussed I apologize.
> 
> First off: yes, I am a Stihlhead, and no I am not defending them. I just have a question for which I don't know the answer.
> 
> ...



Good post and a valid point!!! It would be a kentuckian that made some sense!!


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

*Dayummmmmm this baby is still going, hot dayumm*

Sorry fellers, I had to sell a few Stihls while I was away. Please forgive me, now let me go see what all I missed. Put your bullet proof vest on Woodie, here's I come........


----------



## belgian (May 8, 2009)

Wild Knight said:


> Point being, if you are going for reliability, certain manufacturing corners can be cut that you would not be able to cut for a fine tuned machine. What exactly are we seeing in Brad's pics?



If I buy a piece of equipment with cut corners, I'd expect the price also being cut a few corners....


----------



## Grande Dog (May 8, 2009)

I wonder if 2009 will be another record sales mark for Stihl?[/QUOTE]

Howdy, 
If they do, the Brazilians won't be complaining.
Regards
Gregg


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## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Put your bullet proof vest on Woodie, here's I come........



You just put your tray up and make sure your seat is in an upright and locked position, fool...


.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> If they do, the Brazilians won't be complaining.
> Regards
> Gregg



Nope, they sure won't. We see bad casts, do we see hung/broken rings and circlips flying out trashing the p&c? It's looking like the brazilians can make a better product than china.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Here I thought we were talking about Stihl's ethics and workmanship but I'll proceed now to answer your question, to my question.
> 
> I think Brad is an enthusiast, who calls them like he sees them. I believe he likes saws, period, not just one brand of saw. Brad has a stable of Stihls that he also brags about regularly so to insinuate he's just a Stihl basher does say a lot about your bias opinions.
> 
> ...



Well Fast you can pick and choose all you like, tant gotta problem with that all. He posted his work for everyone to see and blamed the mishap on Stihl quality when thats total BS. I agree we all are learning everyday. I learned long ago when you start threads like this one you open yourself up to anything, and man did those last photos really show quite alot, it showed he blamed someone else for his own mistake. I could easily take those photos and say man you guys better not send that dude any saws to work on, if he screws it up he'll blame it on something else, heres the proof. However I got no axe to grind with Brad, I'm not out to take him down. What his beef is with Stihl I don't know and don't care. I do find it odd when someone goes to the extremes of posting their own screw ups in full color and then blames it on the quality of the product he ruined at his own hands. Now what would you call that Fast, give me the name for it, you know what it is, let me hear ya say it..


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## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

All right...I gotta happy hour to get to. You guys keep it outta the ditch.

And remember, Tom and 2K...so long as you guys keep it up, there will be people in here to lay the smack down. And people posting things like 'I think Stihl's quality is going down.'

So if someone were to...say...type the phrase 'Stihl's quality is going down' into a search engine, well they would get this thread, now, wouldn't they?

I'm just sayin' is all... 



.


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## edisto (May 8, 2009)

Wild Knight said:


> An old ford motor will start and run everytime. Will it outperform a ferrari motor? Hell no, but again, you can use any gas from any pump in any temperature at any altitude and not have to service it every 1000 miles. What separates it from a ferrari motor doesn't make it less reliable. You can fine tune anything, but looser tolerance often equates to better reliability, especially for the average guy.



This is beyond loose tolerance...it is shoddy work, and not by comparison to more expensive saws (because you'd be hard pressed to find more expensive saws) but by comparison to the same company.

I think most of the arguments are about paying the Ferrari price for a Chevy engine (assembled late on a Friday afternoon by a visiting Kindergarten class).


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> Well, throw another dog on the woodie. I mean another log on the woodpile. There's a spark down there and they'll fan the flames with their keyboards and their lips and we'll see a few more attempts to discredit Stihl and The Champ.
> 
> ...



LOLOL, just between you and me thats mostly what the pack is doing, they could care less about that cylinder, lets get that guy. I like it, why, cause I know it takes a pack to do it and they still can't get it done, bunch of pansies,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> All right...I gotta happy hour to get to. You guys keep it outta the ditch.
> 
> And remember, Tom and 2K...so long as you guys keep it up, there will be people in here to lay the smack down. And people posting things like 'I think Stihl's quality is going down.'
> 
> ...



Woodie did you ever find me that information you was spouting off, untill you do and I know you can't you've already been put under the table, have a great evening Woodie,LOLOL


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> LOLOL, just between you and me thats mostly what the pack is doing, they could care less about that cylinder, lets get that guy. I like it, why, cause I know it takes a pack to do it and they still can't get it done, bunch of pansies,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Hearing from the old steal camp leader that is funny. Tell mr drippy all about it would ya. LMAO


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> Well, throw another dog on the woodie. I mean another log on the woodpile. There's a spark down there and they'll fan the flames with their keyboards and their lips and we'll see a few more attempts to discredit Stihl and The Champ.
> 
> ...



Joat are you from america because, half the time I can't understand a dang thing you write.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Woodie did you ever find me that information you was spouting off, untill you do and I know you can't you've already been put under the table, have a great evening Woodie,LOLOL



"Woodie" and "information" don't mix, he just can't produce, LOL.


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I believe the reason ya'll boys are so tore up is that all these cylinders were made in 2008, according to booker. 2008 was Stihl's best year for sales while husky dropped. Now you tell me if this were a big problem, would it show in sales?




Good one. Tends to prove all the naysayers wrong, dayumm good math there, 2008 was a great year,haha


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## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good one. Tends to prove all the naysayers wrong, dayumm good math there, 2008 was a great year,haha



Yup, sure looks as if sales would be down. Maybe all of Stihls customers aren't pulling the jugs to find out? Or maybe their products are running so good, it isn't needed? Or maybe they don't care? Or maybe their other brand from the box store, that was not demostrated, quit and the box store could not help 'em?


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## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, sure looks as if sales would be down. Maybe all of Stihls customers aren't pulling the jugs to find out? Or maybe their products are running so good, it isn't needed? Or maybe they don't care? Or maybe their other brand from the box store, that was not demostrated, quit and the box store could not help 'em?



Or maybe its just starting and it will come back to bite them in the A$$


----------



## mowoodchopper (May 8, 2009)

I guess its time to face the music !! The good old days are gone as are the good old stihls. Glad I have one good old school stihl cause the new ones seem to be junk !


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Hearing from the old steal camp leader that is funny. Tell mr drippy all about it would ya. LMAO



Thank goodness for Mr.Drippy, the worlds most famous 372, sold to a Sthil man from Baileys online, it doesn't get any better than that,LOL


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## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> What his beef is with Stihl I don't know and don't care.



Here's a reminder:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Or maybe its just starting and it will come back to bite them in the A$$



Ya think they will have to lay off a 1000 employees like Husky did in 2008 Booker, man that would really start a good thread wouldn't it,haha


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> Here's a reminder:



And? That cylinder must not be too bad, I heard it was sold for 85.00. Talk about ethics,what a joke..


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, sure looks as if sales would be down. Maybe all of Stihls customers aren't pulling the jugs to find out? Or maybe their products are running so good, it isn't needed? Or maybe they don't care? Or maybe their other brand from the box store, that was not demostrated, quit and the box store could not help 'em?



Well fear not. Husky told slammed the door in Baileys face after all the saws they sold for them, Husky is still in business without those online sales so we know Stihl has nothing to worry bout,


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> "Woodie" and "information" don't mix, he just can't produce, LOL.



Well I knew he didn't have children but I wasn't gonna knock him for not producing any, :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

That rod was bent by trying to remove a flywheel nut *with a scrench* and rope in the cylinder for a stop! Not a 2' breaker bar. I now have a method of disassembly for these saws that should cause them so much trouble. 

EpicKlein is right. Since the rod is too weak to hold the torque required to break the flywheel nut loose, I now use an impact wrench. Yup, you heard me right. Same thing with the clutch. But make sure you remove the flywheel first or you'll shear the cast aluminum key off of the flywheel. 

How can Stihl get away with a weak rod like that? If you bring in one of these saws significantly damaged, all they're going to do is sell you a new one. Tell my why the competitors still put much stronger case, beam-style rods in some of their their little saws? Yup, that's the ones I recommend.

Do I have a beaf with Stihl? I have a beef with anything I find of poorer quality thatn the competition.

The quality of my worksmanship? If I breaka you saw, I fixa you saw. I think I just proved that by refusing to work with that crap Stihl cylinder for one of my customers.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Or maybe its just starting and it will come back to bite them in the A$$



Might, it just might, doubt it, but it just might.


----------



## Grande Dog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Nope, they sure won't. We see bad casts, do we see hung/broken rings and circlips flying out trashing the p&c? It's looking like the brazilians can make a better product than china.


Howdy,
Looks can be deceiving, We get aftermarket samples form all over the world. The Brazilian product is on par with the Chinese. The next best is the Taiwanese. The European product is the best and carries the higher prices. I think that our own previous fiasco's qualified me to comment. I'll be the first to agree it was wise-ass statement but, this has become the general content of this thread. I've stated this before. Our issues all arose from the wrong type of product inserted in our kits. I don't think we ever had a piston or cylinder fail on it's own account. It was either rings that should have been ductile, or clips that shouldn't have been. I've just returned from Taiwan. I think that when I left, nobody was left wondering exactly how we feel about their QC. I've implemented a collateral inspection process that will have at least a double redundancy for quality control. I will try to make this process so seamless it's a no brainer when it comes to our product quality. I realize the Stihl cylinder in question didn't fail. To me, looking at the mis-location of the intake, it shouldn't have made it to the plating process.
Regards
Gregg


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## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well I knew he didn't have children but I wasn't gonna knock him for not producing any, :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



He hasn't figured out men can't have babies, woodie and booker would love to have kids but everytime they fart their offspring are blown everywhere.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ya think they will have to lay off a 1000 employees like Husky did in 2008 Booker, man that would really start a good thread wouldn't it,haha



*Ouch, that cut deep! LOLOLOL*


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ya think they will have to lay off a 1000 employees like Husky did in 2008 Booker, man that would really start a good thread wouldn't it,haha



Were not talken bout employees old timer. Your skipping rope like alittle girl around the issue. Keep here up you will learn your ABC that way.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

So using crap parts is justifiable if it means you save some jobs. That's situational ethics again. I don't buy it.


----------



## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> And? That cylinder must not be too bad, I heard it was sold for 85.00. Talk about ethics,what a joke..



Must not be too bad, it says Stihl on it.

I definitely don't have your expertise, but I can recognize crap when I see it, and I might not know much about 2-strokes, but I do know they don't run on BS and bluster.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Looks can be deceiving, We get aftermarket samples form all over the world. The Brazilian product is on par with the Chinese. The next best is the Taiwanese. The European product is the best and carries the higher prices. I think that our own previous fiasco's qualified me to comment. I'll be the first to agree it was wise-ass statement but, this has become the general content of this thread. I've stated this before. Our issues all arose from the wrong type of product inserted in our kits. I don't think we ever had a piston or cylinder fail on it's own account. It was either rings that should have been ductile, or clips that shouldn't have been. I've just returned from Taiwan. I think that when I left, nobody was left wondering exactly how we feel about their QC. I've implemented a collateral inspection process that will have at least a double redundancy for quality control. I will try to make this process so seamless it's a no brainer when it comes to our product quality. I realize the Stihl cylinder in question didn't fail. To me, looking at the mis-location of the intake, it shouldn't have made it to the plating process.
> Regards
> Gregg



Kudos for making a big step in QC for ya'lls products. I disagree with this 260's cylinder being on par with the chicom, you don't see Stihl rings and circlips having problems or out of round cylinders causing pistons to stick in the bore. In fact, members here recommend Stihl rings/cirlclips in the BB kits, if you HAVE to have a BB kit.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So using crap parts is justifiable if it means you save some jobs. That's situational ethics again. I don't buy it.



No brad Old tommy boys is just trying to save face in front of all the little steal heads that follow him around. We call 2k the brown torpeto. THall its okay you can lay you head on 2k's lap now and relax.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> *Ouch, that cut deep! LOLOLOL*



Just more skipping rope. 2k rest easy young man. old tommy still has keys to the shed


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Joat are you from america because, half the time I can't understand a dang thing you write.



Well, your thread starter hero has demonstrated a bias against a certain race and now it seems you do as well.

Perhaps this Stihl bashing has a meaning I hadn't considered.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> No brad Old tommy boys is just trying to save face in front of all the little steal heads that follow him around. We call 2k the brown torpeto. THall its okay you can lay you head on 2k's lap now and relax.



I enjoy Toms posts It's all good. This is entertainment, right!


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Well, your thread starter hero has demonstrated a bias against a certain race and now it seems you do as well.
> 
> Perhaps this Stihl bashing has a meaning I hadn't considered.



No Im serious


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> That rod was bent by trying to remove a flywheel nut *with a scrench* and rope in the cylinder for a stop! Not a 2' breaker bar. I now have a method of disassembly for these saws that should cause them so much trouble.
> 
> EpicKlein is right. Since the rod is too weak to hold the torque required to break the flywheel nut loose, I now use an impact wrench. Yup, you heard me right. Same thing with the clutch. But make sure you remove the flywheel first or you'll shear the cast aluminum key off of the flywheel.
> 
> ...



Well Brad can you explain why the one I removed isn't bent and there is no hole in the piston. Did my assembly have better quality than yours or did I know what I was doing and you didn't. Lets cut to the chase here and stop with your non-sense about that assembly. If you didn't know how to take it apart correctly ya shoulda found out how before ruining it. To be honest it almost looks like it was done on purpose but I won't assume for I don't know.

If I recall you said you call it like you see it, a spade is a spade to you. Sounds fair to me and allows me as well to do the same. You screwed up and ruined that assembly, simple as that. I've taken many apart and never had a issue one. How you ruined it is beyond me but spare me the blame game please, the BS has to stop somewhere Brad, nothing personal of course but get real...


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I enjoy Toms posts It's all good. This is entertainment, right!



O gosh yes. The sthil boys get there panties twisted sometimes but, its all in fun.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Well, your thread starter hero has demonstrated a bias against a certain race and now it seems you do as well.
> 
> Perhaps this Stihl bashing has a meaning I hadn't considered.



Joat, you figured it out, congrats!


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Were not talken bout employees old timer. Your skipping rope like alittle girl around the issue. Keep here up you will learn your ABC that way.



I know Booker but you said it would come back to bite them, Husky got bit last year was all I was saying,hehe


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

Hey Joatmon, this is a *44.7mm *P&C.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I know Booker but you said it would come back to bite them, Husky got bit last year was all I was saying,hehe



Good golly tammy fay were back to last year. ABCDEFGHIJ.............LMAO


----------



## spacemule (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well Brad can you explain why the one I removed isn't bent and there is no hole in the piston. Did my assembly have better quality than yours or did I know what I was doing and you didn't. Lets cut to the chase here and stop with your non-sense about that assembly. If you didn't know how to take it apart correctly ya shoulda found out how before ruining it. To be honest it almost looks like it was done on purpose but I won't assume for I don't know.
> 
> If I recall you said you call it like you see it, a spade is a spade to you. Sounds fair to me and allows me as well to do the same. You screwed up and ruined that assembly, simple as that. I've taken many apart and never had a issue one. How you ruined it is beyond me but spare me the blame game please, the BS has to stop somewhere Brad, nothing personal of course but get real...



Are you going to say Brad took a hammer to that 026 cylinder and made up the casting flaws as well? 

I've ran a lot of Huskies, and I've never had one leak oil. Why's that? Is my technique better than yours? Did you take a drill to drippy and make the story up? Why don't you man up and admit you screwed that saw up. I don't know how you did it but you did it. I'm just calling it like I see it.


----------



## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> If I recall you said you call it like you see it, a spade is a spade to you. Sounds fair to me and allows me as well to do the same.



So call it. Tell me straight up that the cylinder is an acceptable level of quality for a Stihl product, and that Brad has no right to complain about it.

No BS about Stihl not caring about the small proportion of their customers that actually look inside their saws, no bragging about how skilled you are at removing gumwrapper rods from saws, just answer the question:

Is this level of quality acceptable in your view?


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well Brad can you explain why the one I removed isn't bent and there is no hole in the piston. Did my assembly have better quality than yours or did I know what I was doing and you didn't. Lets cut to the chase here and stop with your non-sense about that assembly. If you didn't know how to take it apart correctly ya shoulda found out how before ruining it. To be honest it almost looks like it was done on purpose but I won't assume for I don't know.
> 
> If I recall you said you call it like you see it, a spade is a spade to you. Sounds fair to me and allows me as well to do the same. You screwed up and ruined that assembly, simple as that. I've taken many apart and never had a issue one. How you ruined it is beyond me but spare me the blame game please, the BS has to stop somewhere Brad, nothing personal of course but get real...




Insert rope into cylinder as a piston stop.
Use a Stihl scrench on the flywheel nut to remove it. (Yes, I turned it CC only.)
The rod couldn't stand the torque of a scrawny little scrench and bent like a pretzel.

The only place I deviated from the manual is my choice of a piston stop. You can choose to ignore the truth or take it for what it is. Why in the world would I purposely destroy an undamaged crank/rod?


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

There's a huge difference in the quality problems with Baileys BB kits and Stihls cylinders. Baileys started with an inferior product and is doing everything in their power to make it better. Contrast to that the quality that the Stihl brand is built on and now the demise of that quality. *BIG DIFFERENCE!!!*

I don't care what the brand, color, whatever, I'll go where ever the quality is. That's why I run Stihl, Husky, and Redmax. I've always preferred Stihl, but they couldn't fit the bill in all cases.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Are you going to say Brad took a hammer to that 026 cylinder and made up the casting flaws as well?
> 
> I've ran a lot of Huskies, and I've never had one leak oil. Why's that? Is my technique better than yours? Did you take a drill to drippy and make the story up? Why don't you man up and admit you screwed that saw up. I don't know how you did it but you did it. I'm just calling it like I see it.



Well hello Johnny come lately, where ya been Space, I figure you to be here much sooner. Come on in and get your slice of the pie,LOLOL

No Brad did nothing to that cylinder cept buy it in the first place. He says its no good yet he sells it for 85.00, its a matter of ethics nearest I can gather, how dare Stihl sell such a cylinder and yet there's Brad, the man that says it is no good selling that cylinder,:monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey:


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

TAMMY 2k this should help you boys out.

<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i669.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid669.photobucket.com/albums/vv60/bookerdog/abc.flv">

*SKIPPING OVER ISSUE IS HARD WORK. JUST SING IT TO YOURSELF WHILE TYPING.*


----------



## spacemule (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well hello Johnny come lately, where ya been Space, I figure you to be here much sooner. Come on in and get your slice of the pie,LOLOL
> 
> No Brad did nothing to that cylinder cept buy it in the first place. He says its no good yet he sells it for 85.00, its a matter of ethics nearest I can gather, how dare Stihl sell such a cylinder and yet there's Brad, the man that says it is no good selling that cylinder,:monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey:



That's bs Tom. Nothing wrong with selling something with faults so long as you insure the buyer knows of the faults. Ethics require candor, but it doesn't require deciding whether someone else can use what you've got. Furthermore, you're using another red herring. I ain't gonna let you get off topic on this one like I usually do. 

So far, you've stated that the quality of the cylinder is not up to your standards, yet you applaud Stihl for using it. Right or wrong?
You say that Stihl should be congratulated for not cutting jobs, yet you've recently bragged that Stihl is expanding. Which is it?
You say that quality doesn't matter so long as a customer doesn't see it. Right or wrong?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Insert rope into cylinder as a piston stop.
> Use a Stihl scrench on the flywheel nut to remove it. (Yes, I turned it CC only.)
> The rod couldn't stand the torque of a scrawny little scrench and bent like a pretzel.
> 
> The only place I deviated from the manual is my choice of a piston stop. You can choose to ignore the truth or take it for what it is. Why in the world would I purposely destroy an undamaged crank/rod?



Does Stihl say use rope, they do not, sorry Brad but thats a fact. The rope is the preferred method, the piston stop is the Stihl method, look at the results and I guess you can see why. Stick to the manual next time and you won't have bent rods and busted pistons, hell look at mine, thats using a piston stop, not rope, and gently doing it the right way..

It was wrong of me to wonder why or how you did it, my bad, but put the blame where it belongs.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> TAMMY 2k this should help you boys out.
> 
> <embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i669.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid669.photobucket.com/albums/vv60/bookerdog/abc.flv">



Eww whats up with the name calling little Burger, I mean Booker,LOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

spacemule said:


> That's bs Tom. Nothing wrong with selling something with faults so long as you insure the buyer knows of the faults. Ethics require candor, but it doesn't require deciding whether someone else can use what you've got. Furthermore, you're using another red herring. I ain't gonna let you get off topic on this one like I usually do.
> 
> So far, you've stated that the quality of the cylinder is not up to your standards, yet you applaud Stihl for using it. Right or wrong?
> You say that Stihl should be congratulated for not cutting jobs, yet you've recently bragged that Stihl is expanding. Which is it?
> You say that quality doesn't matter so long as a customer doesn't see it. Right or wrong?



Space I would not sell something to someone I just told was no good, sorry but thats me. I've given away more saws than that cylinder would ever bring if it were made out of sterling sliver. You can defend that type of charactor all you want, I find it odd the man that is having such a tissy and proclaiming its no good turns right around and sells it, the exact samething he is downing the maker about. I don't see the maker downing him, do you??

Stihl has not laid off anyone Space, due to the high quality of their products they haven't had to. They do what they have to do to meet world demand. Others lay off because the demand for their product isn't there, put that in ya ole pipe and puff it. 

Gotta go, leave me a reply, you know me, I likes you,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Fastcast (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good one. Tends to prove all the naysayers wrong, dayumm good math there, 2008 was a great year,haha



Just goes to prove my point.....Your customers aren't too bright and will buy shoddy workmanship based on a name/reputation that appears to be heading down a path no one wants to see.

You fellows can act like a bunch of clowns and keep cracking jokes all you want but there's only about a handful of ya on here (maybe 5) that keeps defending Stihl.

Looks like the vast majority of AS members are much brighter than your typical Stihl customer. 

:jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:


----------



## Taxmantoo (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Does Stihl say use rope, they do not, sorry Brad but thats a fact. The rope is the preferred method, the piston stop is the Stihl method, look at the results and I guess you can see why. Stick to the manual next time and you won't have bent rods and busted pistons, hell look at mine, thats using a piston stop, not rope, and gently doing it the right way..



Seems like he holed a piston with the stop, then did the rope trick. What would have caused the holed piston, wrong stop, wrong depth?

Only way I can see the rod failing with the rope trick was if he didn't use enough rope and the crank had lots of leverage on the rod when it got near TDC.


----------



## landyboy (May 8, 2009)

Wow i`ve been logged on an hour an just got to the end and the threads still going gangbusters.
The cylinder Brad posted up is duff, no doubt about that. In fact it looks of lesser quality than the one on my 180, a cheapie, but i would guess quality control is going downhill across the board. All makes. I would bet a pound to a pinch of :censored:that husky, Dolmar, Jonsered are cutting corners to stay afloat.
I`m thankfull that i have good examples of the saws i want that are a few years old, but i will treasure them.
I have mostly Stihls but have no particular allegance. Stihls are popular here and dealer backup is good.
Technology moves on but QC goes back in time to keep units competitive, especially in the current economic climate.Would i buy a new saw at the moment from whatever brand? probably not.
Out of curiosity has anyone stripped another brand recently to check quality for comparison?


----------



## gink595 (May 8, 2009)

I've read here and there, but I was kinda surprised that the same cylinder in question that is a POS ended up selling for 85.00. I agree it looked crummy, about the same quality as a BB cylinder. But on the other hand as I've seen here and there that Stihls cylinder quality isn't what it used to be, and I think that is a real shame. It will catch up with them sooner or later. I hope the reputation they built doesn't collaspe because of greed. Those saws demand big money, the least they could do is supply a product that is of the highest standards in the industry and I don't think do. Tear a Dolmar cylinder down they look pretty good.


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## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> its a matter of ethics nearest I can gather, how dare Stihl sell such a cylinder and yet there's Brad, the man that says it is no good selling that cylinder



It's a matter of quality, not ethics.

Answer the question...it's a simple yes or no:

Do you find this cylinder to be acceptable quality for a Stihl product?

You don't seem to have an aversion to spewing out words; I'm just asking for one.

Yes or no THALL.


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

Here is my take on this whole subject:

This thread needs to come to an end. What is going to be accomplished here? Is the cylinder going to magically become better quality? Is Stihl going to change things? NO! 

This is starting to pass the friendly brand bashing that we all know and love, and turn a little personal. Posters on this thread are trying for satisfaction and keep picking at a scab that will never heal. Why complain about something that CANNOT be changed. It's okay to discuss, but when FRIENDS begin to take low shots we need to step back and look at what we are talking about. If someone admits Stihl made a crappy cylinder doesn't change a thing. If Tom Hall admits it's a bad cylinder, what does it prove? He didn't make the damn thing, neither did 2K or any other Stihlhead, so we are barking up the wrong tree. 

There is no easy solution to this, there is no dealer to call and yell, box boy to ##### out for satisfaction, or person to rectify the "crappy" cylinder. This thread needs to die before friends are lost.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Here is my take on this whole subject:
> 
> This thread needs to come to an end. What is going to be accomplished here? Is the cylinder going to magically become better quality? Is Stihl going to change things? NO!
> 
> ...


 
Well said but I'll beat you fools in the ground before I give!!!<a href='http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-in-Mexico/scuba-diving-in-cancun' title='scuba diving in cancun'><img src='http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0017.gif' alt='scuba diving in cancun' border='0'></a><a href='http://www.mysmiley.net/free-sad-smileys.php' title='sad smileys'><img src='http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0061.gif' alt='sad smileys' border='0'></a>












LOL, my last post, in this thread.


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## edisto (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> If Tom Hall admits it's a bad cylinder, what does it prove?



I see your point. My concern is this...I prefer Huskies, but I hear great things about Stihl, and I love my new 076. I expect mistakes to pop up now and again, and I guess I didn't hear anything that would give me any confidence in buying a new Stihl.

What I wanted to hear was "whoa...that's a piece of crap. Take it to the nearest dealer and they'll give you a new cylinder, a free hat, and a thousand apologies!"

Instead I hear a lot of sideways talk and accusations.

My question might have seemed inflammatory, but I honestly want to know the answer. If that passes for OK for Stihl, then I'll save my money.


----------



## PatrickIreland (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> keep picking at a scab that will never heal.




Herpes?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> So call it. Tell me straight up that the cylinder is an acceptable level of quality for a Stihl product, and that Brad has no right to complain about it.
> 
> No BS about Stihl not caring about the small proportion of their customers that actually look inside their saws, no bragging about how skilled you are at removing gumwrapper rods from saws, just answer the question:
> 
> Is this level of quality acceptable in your view?



OK that is easy to answer, it must have been acceptable if it was on the saw. Adding to that apparently the saw was running ok, I have yet to hear it wasn't. Brad has every right to complain, it does not meet HIS standards. Brad has a choice to make, he can complain all he wants. He said he just can't get over that cylinder, he can't beleive it. If I felt like that about something guess what I would do, I wouldn't buy anymore. He needs to sell all those Stihl's he has and then he'll feel much better. Will Stihl care, no, will Brad care, no, will I, no, will you, no, simple choice isn't it. People always make that big mistake of thinking the others they are complaining to really care. Samething at funerals, oh I'm so sorry. Then they go outside and tell thier buddy he was a mean SOB. 

As for my level I don't tear saws apart for the hell of it or to port them or to inspect them. I will not go out in the shed and tear apart my 45 Stihls or 3 Husky's or two Dolmars looking for trouble or to see how well the cylinder looks, why, they run fine, good enuff for me. 

If I got that cylinder out the box to repair a saw I would not use it, I would get another and repair the saw, job done. Nothing to write home to momma about huh, just a saw, just a cylinder, just another job. I would not go hop on a saw site or call the newspapers or radio stations and scream to the world the title of this thread.
Nope, I would have Rush Limbaugh do it for me,LOLOL


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> What I wanted to hear was "whoa...that's a piece of crap. Take it to the nearest dealer and they'll give you a new cylinder, a free hat, and a thousand apologies!"



But if it was said, does that make it true? Tom Hall can't speak for Stihl or other dealers. I don't expect Tom to make a statement to that extent, he knows his Stihl saws and makes his living from them. I believe if Stihl had quality issues, not just one saw, but many issues Tom would say something. 

It was a new cylinder from a RUNNING saw, and questions of reliability would only be conjecture. It might run for 20 years or 2, we will never know.


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

PatrickIreland said:


> Herpes?



Remind me not to kiss your wife.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Here is my take on this whole subject:
> 
> This thread needs to come to an end. What is going to be accomplished here? Is the cylinder going to magically become better quality? Is Stihl going to change things? NO!
> 
> ...



Hey you hush, I like this thread. This is one of the very best threads of the year. I'm gonna go look for Space now, I can't wait to see what he has to say,LOLOL

BTW, that was a crummy looking cylinder, bad, will know in about 10 years, saw was running, how it was running is the who crapped in the sink mystery, have yet to get a report on that,LOL

Friends, what friends, I don't know these people, hell I don't know you,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## PB (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Friends, what friends, I don't know these people, hell I don't know you,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



That hurts Tom, it really hurts. I thought we shared something special that night down by the lake.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> That hurts Tom, it really hurts. I thought we shared something special that night down by the lake.



Why you low life, freinds never tell, my line was to keep things secret, look what you have done, GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Here is my take on this whole subject:
> 
> This thread needs to come to an end. What is going to be accomplished here? Is the cylinder going to magically become better quality? Is Stihl going to change things? NO!
> 
> ...



you can't really think we take this seriously do you plant. Skip a Skip b skip c..........


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## PB (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Why you low life, freinds never tell, my line was to keep things secret, look what you have done, GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
> :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Ohhhhhhhhh............ You mean nothing to me Tom Hall.


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## PB (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> you can't really think we take this seriously do you plant. Skip a Skip b skip c..........



You? NO. Others? Yes.


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## AZLOGGER (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Space I would not sell something to someone I just told was no good, sorry but thats me. I've given away more saws than that cylinder would ever bring if it were made out of sterling sliver. You can defend that type of charactor all you want, I find it odd the man that is having such a tissy and proclaiming its no good turns right around and sells it, the exact samething he is downing the maker about. I don't see the maker downing him, do you??
> 
> *Stihl has not laid off anyone Space, due to the high quality of their products they haven't had to. They do what they have to do to meet world demand. Others lay off because the demand for their product isn't there, put that in ya ole pipe and puff it. *
> Gotta go, leave me a reply, you know me, I likes you,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:




That is total BS Thall, you just like to keep stirring the pot.

BTW Me thinks *joatmon* is working incognito for *STIHL*, (buy the inferior cylinder at whatever the cost, destroy it or whatever, then no evidence it ever existed). I would of liked to see Brad get a new P/C from *STIHL*, just to see if they stand behind their products, (but thats not my call).

Now I'll add some more fuel to the fire, MS180 (with possibly 2 or 3 tanks of fuel thru it) comes in this am with PTO side bearing trashed, P/C and everything else no problem, just like brand new. This saw was sold by the local ACE Hardware Store, & they tell him it is used commercially so warranty is out. The guy bought it in 01/09 and trims (everybody's favorite) mulberry trees. I gave him $45.00 trade in allowance towards a Husqvarna 435, hopefully another convert.

Next a FS85 Trimmer with non-adjustable carb comes in with moderate scoring on exaust side of piston, don't know where or when purchased, but fuel in tank looked OK. This one is questionable, don't know if it was ever straight gassed or not, but with non-adj carb I know it was not run lean on carb adj.
Now that all of you *DIEHARD* *STIHL* fans have drawn and quartered Brad, flame on I have very thick skin.


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> It's a matter of quality, not ethics.
> 
> Answer the question...it's a simple yes or no:
> 
> ...



I wrote you a post answering that. While here I wanna ask you a question about acceptable things as well. I'm sure you saw the pics of my 372, I'm told that was a mistake, fair enuff. However that defect was seen by the person who made it, by the person who inspected it before assmebly, it was also seen by the person who put the oil hose in the hole during assembly, so we have three cover ups here, mistake, acceptable, quality control failure or they just didn't give a dayummm, which one is it??


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## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I wrote you a post answering that. While here I wanna ask you a question about acceptable things as well. I'm sure you saw the pics of my 372, I'm told that was a mistake, fair enuff. However that defect was seen by the person who made it, by the person who inspected it before assmebly, it was also seen by the person who put the oil hose in the hole during assembly, so we have three cover ups here, mistake, acceptable, quality control failure or they just didn't give a dayummm, which one is it??



And around and around we go. skip to the lou my darling skip to the lou my darling.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

AZLOGGER said:


> That is total BS Thall, you just like to keep stirring the pot.
> 
> BTW Me thinks *joatmon* is working incognito for *STIHL*, (buy the inferior cylinder at whatever the cost, destroy it or whatever, then no evidence it ever existed). I would of liked to see Brad get a new P/C from *STIHL*, just to see if they stand behind their products, (but thats not my call).
> 
> ...



Can you add where Stihl has laid off a 1000 employees, show me. You bring up a FS85, do you have any idea how old that thing is, single screw carb, do you wanna know, try 2001, best get your thick skin off the top of your head. 

No one has drawn and quartered Brad. I did ask Brad question that I haven't seen his answer to. I asked him if he had bought my 372 and found that screwed up case hidden just like that cylinder would he had started a thread call Crappy Husky Case-Looks Like ChiCom Garbage. Have you seen it, is so please point it out to me.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Can you add where Stihl has laid off a 1000 employees, show me. You bring up a FS85, do you have any idea how old that thing is, single screw carb, do you wanna know, try 2001, best get your thick skin off the top of your head.
> 
> No one has drawn and quartered Brad. I did ask Brad question that I haven't seen his answer to. I asked him if he had bought my 372 and found that screwed up case hidden just like that cylinder would he had started a thread call Crappy Husky Case-Looks Like ChiCom Garbage. Have you seen it, is so please point it out to me.



No but, you have used mr drippy several times and started threads up using mr drippy. Point being. Now skip a skip b skip c just like I taught you.


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> And around and around we go. skip to the lou my darling skip to the lou my darling.



LOL, Booker many years ago I was up in the hot seat at court. The Mrs and me were fueding over the kids. Her old lawyer was hammering me with a bunch of nasty questions and I was giving her replies that made her furious. It got so bad the judge started giggling. The judge finally said enough, you can be seated Mr Hall with a big smile on her face, yes female judge. Wanna guess who won, ya dayummmmmmmmm right, ME.


----------



## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> OK that is easy to answer, it must have been acceptable if it was on the saw. Adding to that apparently the saw was running ok, I have yet to hear it wasn't.



That's the answer I needed, and thanks for providing it. For the money, "as long as it's running" isn't going to cut it for me.



THALL10326 said:


> I wrote you a post answering that. While here I wanna ask you a question about acceptable things as well. I'm sure you saw the pics of my 372, I'm told that was a mistake, fair enuff. However that defect was seen by the person who made it, by the person who inspected it before assmebly, it was also seen by the person who put the oil hose in the hole during assembly, so we have three cover ups here, mistake, acceptable, quality control failure or they just didn't give a dayummm, which one is it??



Like I said, mistakes happen...it is how they are dealt with or tolerated that makes the difference. Maybe I won't find any company that is embarrassed by a lack of quality anymore, but that's OK too. I like old saws just fine.

I haven't followed the saga of old drippy in detail, but if someone said "it's running, quit yer #####in" about that, I'd be just as disheartened.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> LOL, Booker many years ago I was up in the hot seat at court. The Mrs and me were fueding over the kids. Her old lawyer was hammering me with a bunch of nasty questions and I was giving her replies that made her furious. It got so bad the judge started giggling. The judge finally said enough, you can be seated Mr Hall with a big smile on her face, yes female judge. Wanna guess who won, ya dayummmmmmmmm right, ME.



To bad you ran into the bookerdog the last few years. You haven't won anything for a few. Sorry.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> No but, you have used mr drippy several times and started threads up using mr drippy. Point being. Now skip a skip b skip c just like I taught you.



True I have, equal rights Booker. No, I've never named a thread for that saw that I can recall. In fact I for a long time I didn't know why it leaked so bad but boy I found out when I opened it up. No biggie, I use it now and then and live it with it. Runs good. I would never sell it to anyone knowing its screwed up though, that tant me.


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

AZLOGGER said:


> That is total BS Thall, you just like to keep stirring the pot.
> 
> BTW Me thinks *joatmon* is working incognito for *STIHL*, (buy the inferior cylinder at whatever the cost, destroy it or whatever, then no evidence it ever existed). I would of liked to see Brad get a new P/C from *STIHL*, just to see if they stand behind their products, (but thats not my call).
> 
> ...



AZL,

I'm in cognito, eh? I'm a StihlHeadLight, but I've flamed about Stihl dealers about as much as anyone on AS. Use a search and look at my posts. Then come back and repeat that statement.

You say this topic sucks, but you choose to throw three more gallons of gasoline just as this is dying out by presenting more anecdotal half-truths where the whole story appears unknown.

Now, I believe Brad launched an unfortunate attack by the language he used in the thread topic. However, I do understand that is his right, if it falls within the AS agreement. Perhaps he's given a bid more freedom as a site sponsor.

Brad issued a challenge for any StihlHead to buy that cylinder. I did so. My initial interest was to see if this non-Mahle cast cylinder with its obvious differences would perform as well as a Mahle and hold up over the long haul. I thought about buying a used 026/260 that needed a cylinder/piston and buying a new piston and using the saw as a sort of test project. Some here would doubt the verasity of this test, so perhaps it would be in vain.

I like Stihl. I've owned Husky (372XP and 390XP), have a Mac, and wanted to buy Dolmars (5100S and 7900) until the local dealer folded. I'm not an ace 2 stroke mechanic, so price, quality and service are factored in when I buy ***. I was very candid about why I preferred the 440 over the 372 and the Husky crowd crowed that I didn't operate the 372 properly. Perhaps not. I can only relate my experiences filtered by the bias I've picked up from sixty years on this planet and the thirty years I spend on another planet preparing for this incognito assignment.

If anyone has any ideas about what to do with this, throw them out, and all that are serious and serve what I deem to be a worthwhile purpose will be considered.

Another item under consideration is building a 260 using this cylinder and a new piston and donating to a charity that a friend operates, Diligent Hands / Helping Hearts. DH/HH maintains owner occupied property for elderly that struggle to stay in their home, are unable to do their own work and can't afford to hire a pro to do it. I'm sure Todd could put the saw to good use.

We chased our pleasures here,
Dug our treasures there,

joat


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> That's the answer I needed, and thanks for providing it. For the money, "as long as it's running" isn't going to cut it for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I'm sorry for Brad and his cylinder. It has really upset him. Me, I see so many machines throughtout the year they are just that, another machine, another job, another dollar made. There is not a saw in this world that I'm gonna lose any sleep over, they just don't mean that much to me. I will stay up late and carry on here, I like people more than equipment,


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> *True I have*, equal rights Booker. No, I've never named a thread for that saw that I can recall. In fact I for a long time I didn't know why it leaked so bad but boy I found out when I opened it up. No biggie, I use it now and then and live it with it. Runs good. I would never sell it to anyone knowing its screwed up though, that tant me.



Its almost embarrassing I made two steal heads admit to things they didn't want to.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> It was wrong of me to wonder why or how you did it, my bad, but put the blame where it belongs.



That's cool. Bottom line, if Stihl used a cast beam-shaped rod, it wouldn't have bent. That's why I no longer own a 180 and have a 3800. Shinys have the beam rod too.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

taxmantoo said:


> Seems like he holed a piston with the stop, then did the rope trick. What would have caused the holed piston, wrong stop, wrong depth?
> 
> Only way I can see the rod failing with the rope trick was if he didn't use enough rope and the crank had lots of leverage on the rod when it got near TDC.



The hole in the piston was on a different 180 and was at least partly my fault. I used a screw in piston stop which should not be used on this model. Reguardless the crown of the piston was paper thin.

I used more rope than it would take to hold the piston as low as the Stihl stop. That was definately not the cause.


----------



## Griner Bros. (May 8, 2009)

:crazy1:oke:oke::blob4::fart::crazy1::sword::wave:
It's Raining here Tonight .... How about another 50 pages !!!!!


----------



## retired redneck (May 8, 2009)

Buy japanese saws bet they don't have chi com cyl......


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I wrote you a post answering that. While here I wanna ask you a question about acceptable things as well. I'm sure you saw the pics of my 372, I'm told that was a mistake, fair enuff. However that defect was seen by the person who made it, by the person who inspected it before assmebly, it was also seen by the person who put the oil hose in the hole during assembly, so we have three cover ups here, mistake, acceptable, quality control failure or they just didn't give a dayummm, which one is it??



Those are not corporate decisions. Those are three indivials making poor or undereducated decisions. To use the cylinders and designs saws as they do is a corporate decision. 

And as far as me selling it? You are the guys saying its acceptable. Joatmon knows exactly what he bought and I told him he was nuts for doing so. In no was does that reflect on my character as you have insinuated several times. And defending the weak build construction of the 180 by accusing my methods is nothing less than rediculous. You're fishing for straws using that in your arguements. This thread would have ended about 30 pages ago if a couple of you had readily admitted that the cylinder is crap and Stihl is wrong for using them. Instead you have given evasive after evasive answer and tried to turn it around in your favor.

Nice try. We ain't buyin' it!:sword:


----------



## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I like people more than equipment,



You like an audience...not exactly the same thing.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No one has drawn and quartered Brad. I did ask Brad question that I haven't seen his answer to. I asked him if he had bought my 372 and found that screwed up case hidden just like that cylinder would he had started a thread call Crappy Husky Case-Looks Like ChiCom Garbage. Have you seen it, is so please point it out to me.



It wouldn't have had this tone if I had. *It is Stihl that braggs about being #1 Worldwide and then puts out garbage like this, no one else.* They ask for this kind of reaction putting out this kind of stuff and bragging about their sales and reputation that they taught us to respect over the last 75 years. I can guarantee you they didn't get their reputation with products like this.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Just goes to prove my point.....*Your customers aren't too bright *and will buy shoddy workmanship based on a name/reputation that appears to be heading down a path no one wants to see.
> 
> You fellows can act like a bunch of clowns and keep cracking jokes all you want but there's only about a handful of ya on here (maybe 5) that keeps defending Stihl.
> 
> ...



There it is again Fast, whats with you and that crystal ball of yours. You know my customers, name a few, show me that thing really works, look in that ball. 

Far as acting like clowns who was the clown that said where is the champ now, was that clown you, yes it was. You wanted this non-sense going on so don't be harping now. Fact is Fast your a follower and nothing more. If there's a bash Sthil thread your there with smoke coming off your shoes. The man from camp Dolly can't wait to jump in. Sorry Fast I can't bring myself to jump in every thread about a problem with a Dolmar or Husky like you do with Stihl, I got no interest in chasing threads like those, I find them boring and if you notice most don't last a page or two because the Stihl guys dont run in them and keep them going. Yes Fast Stihl is where the action is, you should know, look where you are toting that crystal ball with ya, :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Oh BTW Fast let me educate you about AS members. Every poll ever taken on AS about favorite saws Stihl wins 99% of the time, so the vast majority are brighter than your crystal ball tells you. Maybe you should change the bulb in that thing..


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

No, I'm not selling my Stihls. I sold the ones I had problems with and found competitor saws to replace them. Remember, I like good Stihl saws. The key word there being good.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Oh BTW Fast let me educate you about AS members. Every poll ever taken on AS about favorite saws Stihl wins 99% of the time, so the vast majority are brighter than your crystal ball tells you. Maybe you should change the bulb in that thing..



I'm glad you brought that up! Remember the 50cc saw poll? The Husky 346 won that one. Oh, the 260 was the Stihl entry:greenchainsaw:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> It wouldn't have had this tone if I had. *It is Stihl that braggs about being #1 Worldwide and then puts out garbage like this, no one else.* They ask for this kind of reaction putting out this kind of stuff and bragging about their sales and reputation that they taught us to respect over the last 75 years. I can guarantee you they didn't get their reputation with products like this.



Well Brad whatcha gonna do, try to takem down, good luck with that, every manufacture in the world has tried, none has ever been able to do it but maybe , just maybe with this thread and that cylinder Stihl will collaspe but don't get your hopes up. You gonna sell all those Stihls you got, you should if you really feel as disappointed as you sound. I would.

I would delete those pics of that busted piston and bent rod if I were you though, thats on you buddy and it looks a helluva lot worse than that cylinder. You can't have that stuff floating around here and expect people to send you saws, delete them, looking out for ya, nothing personal, you know my motto..


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I'm glad you brought that up! Remember the 50cc saw poll? The Husky 346 won that one. Oh, the 260 was the Stihl entry:greenchainsaw:



Yup thats why I left 1% open,LOL I like the 346 Husky!!!


----------



## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well Brad whatcha gonna do, try to takem down, good luck with that, every manufacture in the world has tried, none has ever been able to do it



That's a pretty big straw man you are building THALL. Never seen one made of round bales before.

If you can't argue the facts, generate a ridiculous statement and argue against it. Brad was expressing surprise and disappointment. Nothing more.


Of course, if that cylinder is not a freakish mistake, Stihl could be engineering their own undoing.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> You like an audience...not exactly the same thing.



Not really, I don't run around the board. If I start a thread I stay in it to the conclusion. If I get in one such as this I will stay in it and not run around the site, thats why I like long threads like this, its easier to keep up with,


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## gink595 (May 8, 2009)

Who is making the cylinders for Stihl? Yeah I could probably read one of the 50+ pages to find out but I'm not, this thread is getting harder and harder to read.


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## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Hey I know lets talk about the 441 I just bought. Try to get vid up tonight. LOL


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## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Going out to cut report coming.


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## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> If I start a thread I stay in it to the conclusion.



Translation: :deadhorse:


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## CHEVYTOWN13 (May 8, 2009)

gink595 said:


> Who is making the cylinders for Stihl? Yeah I could probably read one of the 50+ pages to find out but I'm not, this thread is getting harder and harder to read.



G595, don't worry bro, the bar's open at the AS SALOON


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> That's a pretty big straw man you are building THALL. Never seen one made of round bales before.
> 
> If you can't argue the facts, generate a ridiculous statement and argue against it. Brad was expressing surprise and disappointment. Nothing more.
> 
> ...



Thats the problem with this thread Ed, the maybe, the could be, what are they doing, oh my they're gonna go under if they keep this up, and no one knew but me where the cylinder even came from. The speculation in this thread is beyond anything I've ever seen. 

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the saw ran. Untill I find out I'm going to pull a cystall ball and assume its alot to do about nothing.


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Thats the problem with this thread Ed, the maybe, the could be, what are they doing, oh my they're gonna go under if they keep this up, and no one knew but me where the cylinder even came from. The speculation in this thread is beyond anything I've ever seen.
> 
> I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the saw ran. Untill I find out I'm going to pull a cystall ball and assume its alot to do about nothing.



Tommie,

If you want to put that cylinder on a 260 and see how it works, it's yours for the asking.

Then you'll bust some crystal balls,

joat


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Those are not corporate decisions. Those are three indivials making poor or undereducated decisions. To use the cylinders and designs saws as they do is a corporate decision.
> 
> And as far as me selling it? You are the guys saying its acceptable. Joatmon knows exactly what he bought and I told him he was nuts for doing so. In no was does that reflect on my character as you have insinuated several times. And defending the weak build construction of the 180 by accusing my methods is nothing less than rediculous. You're fishing for straws using that in your arguements. This thread would have ended about 30 pages ago if a couple of you had readily admitted that the cylinder is crap and Stihl is wrong for using them. Instead you have given evasive after evasive answer and tried to turn it around in your favor.
> 
> Nice try. We ain't buyin' it!:sword:



Brad why don't you give that cylinder to Joat, you told him its no good, its awful, what the hell kind of salesmenship is that. Give it to him and let him prove your right, lets hope it fails. Making him buy it when you say its no good, well gee, what a deal. You say Joat is nuts for buying it then don't take his money, be a sport, give it too him, its only a cylinder. Dayumm Brad if I can give away over 50 saws you should be able to let go of a cylinder you say is no good.

Far as the 180 you admitted you used a rope, thats a no no in the 180, you found out the hard way. Would you like me to tell you why the rope caused that so you can somehow accept the fact you screwed up, not Stihl. Defend all you want, the rope bury's your claim 100%.


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## whitedogone (May 8, 2009)

I am so tired of this thread:bang:


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> If you want to put that cylinder on a 260 and see how it works, it's yours for the asking.
> 
> ...



Great idea Joat. You buy it, I'll buy it from you. I got 5 026/260's. I'm not afriad to run it, lets put it to the test, if it fails I will give Brad all the credit in the world, if it doesn't crow shall be served at 6pm sharp at 20th tank. If it doesn't fail within 20 tanks it isn't gonna fail, most bad cylinders won't last 3 tanks before hanging a ring and koboommnm..

Joat keep your eye out for the brown truck, its on da way,


----------



## edisto (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Thats the problem with this thread Ed, the maybe, the could be, what are they doing, oh my they're gonna go under if they keep this up, and no one knew but me where the cylinder even came from. The speculation in this thread is beyond anything I've ever seen.



No...the problem with this thread is the misdirection:

Brad is trying to bring down Stihl
My 372 leaks
Ham-fisted Brad bent a perfectly good rod and, my personal favorite...



THALL10326 said:


> I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the saw ran.



Doesn't matter if it runs or not. A Wild Thing runs. That cylinder is a turd.


----------



## Erick (May 8, 2009)

The Champ

Float like a butterfly..... check

Sting like a bee........ check

But ask him a hard question and all he can say is... "and ya know I'm so pretty" 


Sorry Tommie just fun'n ya a little you should see all the ducking, dodging, and dancing your doing in this thread...... Ali would be proud 


Here’s another Ali quote for ya though "Wisdom is knowing when you can't be wise."


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Great idea Joat. You buy it, I'll buy it from you. I got 5 026/260's. I'm not afriad to run it, lets put it to the test, if it fails I will give Brad all the credit in the world, if it doesn't crow shall be served at 6pm sharp at 20th tank. If it doesn't fail within 20 tanks it isn't gonna fail, most bad cylinders won't last 3 tanks before hanging a ring and koboommnm..
> 
> Joat keep your eye out for the brown truck, its on da way,



Tommie,

It's bought, paid for and on it's way to SC. I'll turn it around and send it to Leesburg.

Make a da-vid-ee-ooh. Remember the Doctor Oldsmobile commercials from the late sixties and early seventies. A lab coat, a camera, the cylinder from Brasil, a 260 and you're in Show Bidness Baby. Coming soon to youTube, the "The Cylinder From Brasil" starring the Champ.

joat

PS: Tommie, that cylinder is gratis from ole joat. Just put me in the da-vid-ee-ooh credits.


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## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

I will eat no crow if that cylinder never fails! I made absolutely zero claims about its performance. There's more to quality than just the performance. I never even started this saw. I don't care how it ran or how it would run if I put this P&C back on it. I don't care if it would run good for 2500 hours. This is a crap casting and is not a mistake or slip of an assemblyer or the mistake of a machinist. This is a deep corporate decision and philosophy to cheapen up on the quality of their product so that they can either make more profit and/or sell more saws.

What makes you think I want to take Stihl down. All I want is to see them continue doing what made them #1. I have a lot of Stihls and love them.

Tom, you are looking out right desperate now. You've resorted to attacking my skills and character while refusing to admit the seriousness of this issue. Twist the facts anyway you want, redirect blame any twisted way you want, the facts still stand. The AS jury has already spoken loud and clear. You're digging your own ditch Tom. You have made this personal, I am simply responding.


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## parrisw (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> I can just see nurse tammy fay hall now. He's out looking high and low for any kind of husky defect.
> 
> Craigslist AD virgina
> Wanted husky saws only with defects will pay any amount. Just please hurry. contact TFhall



Why do you think Tammy fay, will never get that 372 fixed, he never took it in for warranty. Because its the only one he will find like it. He probably sabotaged it himself.


----------



## gink595 (May 8, 2009)

CHEVYTOWN13 said:


> G595, don't worry bro, the bar's open at the AS SALOON



Chevy my man!!! Good to hear a friendly voice in here, I'll meet ya at the saloon and buy a round, maybe ease the tensions.... I think strippers are in order, if strippers and beer can't resolve this feud, nothing can


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Erick said:


> The Champ
> 
> Float like a butterfly..... check
> 
> ...



Well now Eric looks like that cylinder is coming to yours truely. I guess I will finally get to solve the mystery, how does it run. I don't give a hoot in hell what it looks like on the inside, looks doesn't saw wood. I already know its crappy, I'm on the phone with Joat as I type this,LOLOL


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ya think they will have to lay off a 1000 employees like Husky did in 2008 Booker, man that would really start a good thread wouldn't it,haha



I would submit that Husky took the high road.

Ford's sales took a dump, and I had to pay with my job. 

I didn't have much to do with it, but that's the way it works, and I understand that.

But Ford didn't put crap Brazilian cylinders in their F-150s, so I would say they took the high road.

As opposed to steal, which screwed their customers.



.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Tommie,
> 
> It's bought, paid for and on it's way to SC. I'll turn it around and send it to Leesburg.
> 
> ...



Call me a coward if you want, but I'm not sending this P&C to someone to just turn around and make a mockery of me with it. Like I already said, it matters not what this P&C runs like, the comments that I posted stand alone for what they are. I made absolutely no comments about it's performance, yet you're trying to use that against me. Ain't going to happen.


----------



## CHEVYTOWN13 (May 8, 2009)

gink595 said:


> Chevy my man!!! Good to hear a friendly voice in here, I'll meet ya at the saloon and buy a round, maybe ease the tensions.... I think strippers are in order, if strippers and beer can't resolve this feud, nothing can



Yeah Buddy!


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Why do you think Tammy fay, will never get that 372 fixed, he never took it in for warranty. Because its the only one he will find like it. He probably sabotaged it himself.



Ewwwwwwwwww I didn't know you could speak that clearly with your nose stuck up Booker's hiny, LOLOLOLOL

Yes Parris I took that thing home and let it leak oil from day one. Then I took it apart to make it leak more, happily I didn't have to do anything but see the case as it was, it was perfectly already screwed up, I was happy,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## parrisw (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ewwwwwwwwww I didn't know you could speak that clearly with your nose stuck up Booker's hiny, LOLOLOLOL
> 
> Yes Parris I took that thing home and let it leak oil from day one. Then I took it apart to make it leak more, happily I didn't have to do anything but see the case as it was, it was perfectly already screwed up, I was happy,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



I know your happy about it. That's why you didn't get it fixed on warranty now did you??? Cause you know it would have been. I got one here that don't leak a drop.


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## gink595 (May 8, 2009)

edisto said:


> Doesn't matter if it runs or not. A Wild Thing runs. That cylinder is a turd.



Well it does kinda matter if it runs:monkey: If the saw runs for 4000 hours it's kinda hard to say it is junk. If it lasts only 3 hours than there is a good comparison to the Wild Thing.

I agree it does look horrible, but lets see what it will do. Will it last, and for how long. If were going to call it out, lets prove the hypothesis. And the Hypothesis is: The cylinder looks like junk, so therfore it cannot last. *Lets see what it can do*


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## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Call me a coward if you want, but I'm not sending this P&C to someone to just turn around and make a mockery of me with it. Like I already said, it matters not what this P&C runs like, the comments that I posted stand alone for what they are. I made absolutely no comments about it's performance, yet you're trying to use that against me. Ain't going to happen.



Well I hope I haven't offended Joatmon. I think he's just in this for the fun. But I've issued him a refund. I'm going to take it back to the dealer and see what Stihl does have to say about it. I know very well that they may do nothing. So be it. It's *my* standards that matter on this saw and that's what I'm operating by.


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## whitedogone (May 8, 2009)

*more chi-com crap*


----------



## gink595 (May 8, 2009)

whitedogone said:


>



So where do you add the vinegar


----------



## dingeryote (May 8, 2009)

whitedogone said:


>



WD,

I dunno why or where, or what circumstance drove you to find that, that's between you and your shrink.

But THAT is funny!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## epicklein22 (May 8, 2009)

That is BS right there Brad. Send the cylinder!!!!! You have nothing to lose!!!!!! Prove me wrong!!!! You were kind enough to charge 85 bucks for it already, when you said it is crappy and you said you wouldn't use it. Take the cash and buy a new cylinder or put the saw back together and have the original owner get it replaced. You playing middle man is stupid. Your thinking that you spent a couple grand at a dealership is gonna give you credibility and power, it wouldn't and shouldn't. If the cylinder is really defective, anyone should be able to get it replaced, so have the original owner get it replaced. Spend more time on learning how to port saws to better serve your customers instead of worrying about your image.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 8, 2009)

whitedogone said:


>



Nice knowing you. Hope you like banned camp.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## whitedogone (May 8, 2009)

Fatguy found it...... Engrish.com


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## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I will eat no crow if that cylinder never fails! I made absolutely zero claims about its performance. There's more to quality than just the performance. I never even started this saw. I don't care how it ran or how it would run if I put this P&C back on it. I don't care if it would run good for 2500 hours. This is a crap casting and is not a mistake or slip of an assemblyer or the mistake of a machinist. This is a deep corporate decision and philosophy to cheapen up on the quality of their product so that they can either make more profit and/or sell more saws.
> 
> What makes you think I want to take Stihl down. All I want is to see them continue doing what made them #1. I have a lot of Stihls and love them.
> 
> Tom, you are looking out right desperate now. You've resorted to attacking my skills and character while refusing to admit the seriousness of this issue. Twist the facts anyway you want, redirect blame any twisted way you want, the facts still stand. The AS jury has already spoken loud and clear. You're digging your own ditch Tom. You have made this personal, I am simply responding.



Brad I'm not attacking you at all. You say the thing looks bad, it does look crappy, I've said it I don't know how many times now. Thats doesn't seem to be good enuff for you. Today you come in with more photo's preaching quality again cept this time you got called on it and you admitted you use a rope, you screwed up, yet your still harping weak rod, weak piston instead of merely admitting you ruined it by not knowing. That is not personal, its fact. If you didn't know then just admit it and give it a rest instead of hanging gung ho its another quality issue, BS and you know it. Your stubborn but thats ok, it doesn't change the facts.

Back to the cylinder YES BRAD IT LOOKS CRAPPY, you say its bad, I heard you and agree with you. You then turn around and sell it, saying Joat is crazy to buy it yet you have no problem sticking his money in your pocket. Thats says volumns Brad. Either its bad in your opinion, you won't have it, its worth nothing to you or its good and worth 85.00, which is it. You want it both ways, its bad, its good, pay me. I couldn't do that. If thats the personal part your speaking of just remember who's pocketing the money, it isn't me, its you. I could care less but no I couldn't do that. If I felt about that cylinder as you did I would throw it away or give it to someone and yes I'm well known to do just that. 

My main interest is how did the saw run. You claim you don't care, thats not the point, its quality. Fair enuff. I on the other hand don't care how it looks, I'm more interested in how that crappy looking thing runs. You say you just want Stihl to be what they claim they are, your disappointed, fair enuff. This thread will surely wake them up, right. Brad I can't say in open forumn what the boys at Stihl think of this site but I can tell you thanks to threads like this it hasn't been read at all by the ones your complaining about, all fruitless and a waste of time. I'm in the know, you aren't but even so I like threads like this and this site. 

Brad this is the net, its not personal, its what it is. I can handle anything coming and I send back just as fast so chill on the personal stuff, its not personal at all.


----------



## spike60 (May 8, 2009)

Heading towards 1000 posts, and this thread shows no signs of slowing down. This many pages in, it's hard to come up with a valid point that hasn't already been made, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Disclaimer: I hope this is still a good natured go-round, but it does show some signs of getting testy. That being the case, let me say that I will make some remarks critical of Stihl the company, and they are not at all directed against any of the Stihl guys here. I don't want to wreck any friendships here on the site, and I'll stay away from any personal comments. Here goes.....

At the very least, Stihl has laid an egg here. A rotton one. A corporate decsion was made to use aftermarket, or aftermarket quality, pistons and cylinders as a substitute vendor when they encounter supply interuptions from their preferred vendor, Mahle. A decsion like this is not made by some guy on the factory floor. It is made by senior management much higher up the chain of command. This had to be discussed at one or more meetings. I'd bet there were a few dissenting voices in that room who thought this was not a stellar idea. But obviously there were more voices that thought this was the way to procede. Not only can we keep the assembly line moving, but the cylinders from Brazil are undoubtedly a lot cheaper, so we can make a lot more money to boot.

They surely don't think that the cylinders are total garbage. They would never want to have to warranty a high number of failures, so they obviously have enough confidence in those cylinders to have given them the green light. But at the same time, they can't possibly believe that they are good as the Mahle units. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see the difference. A blind man could probably _feel_ the difference. Only time will tell what that difference really is. If Stihl really felt that the stuff from Brazil was up to par, they would cut Mahle out of the picture altogether. Who knows, maybe that's the end game. If they hold up as good in the field as Mahle, then they could go ahead and just make their own. But is every end user who buys a saw unwittingly participating in this big R&D project? 

Most of us, myself included, have many of our opinions colored by the color of our favorite saws. It just a reality that is very hard to escape. As enthusiasts, we have our favorite brands, and we need to defend our turf and usually line up accordingly. But I just don't see how anyone could look at this and not think that Stihl is, (as my Dad would say), "pulling a fast one". Subbing those lower grade cylinders is just a bogus move on their part. 

And nobody can tell me that, if the tables were reversed, that the Stihl guys wouldn't be all over this and tearing up Husky. If it was the other way around, I wouldn't be too mad at the Stihl guys for slinging mud. I would be furious with Husky, and I would be on the phone to the higher ups letting them know what I thought. (I certainly wouldn't on here defending them.) I would hate to be wondering every time I opened up a 346 or 372 if it had the good cylinder, or the "other" one. 

Speaking of wondering, doesn't this move at least plant a seed of doubt in all of you Stihl guys? What are you going to have on your minds the next time you go to buy that next Stihl that you've been wanting? You guys got something else to think about now, don't ya? I think that freaking sucks not knowing which cylinder the factory slid in on your new saw. It's not right to treat loyal customers that way. 

Another important distinction that needs to be made here is that it would be one thing for them to pick a model, say the 290, and say that all cylinders for that model will come from the factory in Brazil. That's the official part, and everybody gets the same one. But the wildcard way they are doing it with the pro saws, where you may get stuck with a cheaper cylinder because they ran low on parts the day yours was built, is just a sad joke. 

How about this perspective: Suppose that I, as a dealer did something like this. Suppose that I rebuilt a saw with an aftermarket P&C that cost me $63, and never said a word about it, yet charged the customer the $300 OEM price. Well, I'd rightly be considered dishonest crook, wouldn't I? But it's OK for Stihl to do this because nobody can see it and the saw will probably run OK? That argument just doesn't hold water. 

So, how many posts do we think this thread will reach???


----------



## Mike mandry (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> The saw was bought brand new on 12-26-08 in Eureka MO. Hopefully my dealer will help me out even though it wasn't bought there or by me. I do have a great relationship with them and have bought thousands of dollars of parts there.



I bet I know who owns the saw then... Not that thats any big deal.

I grew up pretty close to there.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 8, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Heading towards 1000 posts, and this thread shows no signs of slowing down. This many pages in, it's hard to come up with a valid point that hasn't already been made, but I'll give it a shot anyway.
> 
> Disclaimer: I hope this is still a good natured go-round, but it does show some signs of getting testy. That being the case, let me say that I will make some remarks critical of Stihl the company, and they are not at all directed against any of the Stihl guys here. I don't want to wreck any friendships here on the site, and I'll stay away from any personal comments. Here goes.....
> 
> ...



A primo post right there. I have been thinking along those lines since this has been discovered, which was months and months ago. These questionable practices makes it easier for me to not want to buy a new stihl, but it also makes me question every company out there..........


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> and no one knew but me where the cylinder even came from.



No one can tell where it came from?

Let me repeat that: *No one can tell you where it came from?????*

It came from STIHL...we don't give a rat's ASS other than that!!!!!



.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Well I hope I haven't offended Joatmon. I think he's just in this for the fun. But I've issued him a refund. I'm going to take it back to the dealer and see what Stihl does have to say about it. I know very well that they may do nothing. So be it. It's *my* standards that matter on this saw and that's what I'm operating by.



Brad I give up. Its obvious your taking all this to heart and very very serious. 

I give away things you are really wrapped up in, my bad. I guess thats why I can't understand all this hoop la over a cylinder. Anyway relax. Its all good...


----------



## THALL10326 (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> No one can tell where it came from?
> 
> Let me repeat that: *No one can tell you where it came from?????*
> 
> ...



Woodie put your pacifier back in and stop hollering, the other kids are trying to sleep,hehe


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Woodie put your pacifier back in and stop hollering, the other kids are trying to sleep,hehe




Tom...I'm your friend. You know that. And I hope you're mine.

That said...stop dancing. Seriously. As long as you're in here looking like Andreas's puppet, people are going to be taking pot shots at you. 

Stihl's ethics in this case are not defensible, and I think you know that. 

But if you keep *attempting* to defend them, people will begin to question yours. 

And I'd hate to see that happen, cause I think yours are top notch.



.


.


----------



## blsnelling (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Brad I'm not attacking you at all. You say the thing looks bad, it does look crappy, I've said it I don't know how many times now. Thats doesn't seem to be good enuff for you. Today you come in with more photo's preaching quality again cept this time you got called on it and you admitted you use a rope, you screwed up, yet your still harping weak rod, weak piston instead of merely admitting you ruined it by not knowing. That is not personal, its fact. If you didn't know then just admit it and give it a rest instead of hanging gung ho its another quality issue, BS and you know it. Your stubborn but thats ok, it doesn't change the facts.
> 
> Back to the cylinder YES BRAD IT LOOKS CRAPPY, you say its bad, I heard you and agree with you. You then turn around and sell it, saying Joat is crazy to buy it yet you have no problem sticking his money in your pocket. Thats says volumns Brad. Either its bad in your opinion, you won't have it, its worth nothing to you or its good and worth 85.00, which is it. You want it both ways, its bad, its good, pay me. I couldn't do that. If thats the personal part your speaking of just remember who's pocketing the money, it isn't me, its you. I could care less but no I couldn't do that. If I felt about that cylinder as you did I would throw it away or give it to someone and yes I'm well known to do just that.
> 
> ...





THALL10326 said:


> Brad I give up. Its obvious your taking all this to heart and very very serious.
> 
> I give away things you are really wrapped up in, my bad. I guess thats why I can't understand all this hoop la over a cylinder. Anyway relax. Its all good...



You're right Tom. It's easy for me to take this stuff too personal. As you stated, our objectives are clearly different. It's simply a matter of principle to me. I know as well as you do that this P&C would likely live a long happy life. I also know that my porting would remove nearly every flaw I've pointed out. But as I've stated, that's all besides the facts to me. The quality if this casting sucks. That's all I've said, that's all I'm saying.

And it's not just a cylinder to me. It's one tiny piece that's exemplary of what I percieve to be the declining quality of Stihl ***. You can't deny that. The difference in opinions only comes in when you decide whether or not you care about anything besides performance. I do. I think most do. That's it in a nut shell. Plain and simple.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

_*O no the dog gots a new toy.*_

<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i669.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid669.photobucket.com/albums/vv60/bookerdog/441.flv">


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Brad I give up. ...



Not yet I just got here.


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Not yet I just got here.



:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


.


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> _*O no the dog gots a new toy.*_
> 
> <embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i669.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid669.photobucket.com/albums/vv60/bookerdog/441.flv">



Book,

That all the longer that thing would run? Wonder about that cylinder.

Huuummm,

joat


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## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Not yet I just got hair.



book,

Congrats man!

joat


----------



## Woodie (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> book,
> 
> Congrats man!
> 
> joat



That's not cool, Joat.


.


----------



## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

joatmon said:


> book,
> 
> Congrats man!
> 
> joat



thank ya sir


----------



## teacherman (May 8, 2009)

*The doctor prescribes Midol®.......*

Wow. Post #808. A thread one day old. Is that a record?

I was not going to participate, but aw whut thuh heyeck.

It bugs me that Stihl is no longer using Mahle cylinders, esp. given the appearance of the one Brad posted. I have a few new Stihls, and I wish they had jugs that gave evidence of craftsmanship. I consider Stihl to be a saw for the ages, something you can give yer grandkid, who'll run it proudly long after yer departed. (If I were cuttin' palm trees in Australia, I would consider all saws disposable....)

This trend is, along with the zamachink carbs, one of which I replaced on my MS200T, saddening. I still think they are the best saws out there, but I wish they would keep the quality up. Stihl sits atop the *** heap for a reason. I hope this isn't squandered in the name of a quick shekel. A privately held company can tell the nonexistent stockholders to go eat fruit bats. The saws will stihl sell, and the customers will appreciate the quality of a saw designed and built for the ages. Nothing sucks worse than being out in the timber with a cheap Homelite Super 2 that will not start. Ask me how I know this. In my book, it's stihl "Stihl Über Alles!"


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## bookerdog (May 8, 2009)

Woodie said:


> That's not cool, Joat.
> 
> 
> .



Woodie easy Im just now understanding him a little.


----------



## Nitro-Fish (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Does Stihl say use rope, they do not, sorry Brad but thats a fact. The rope is the preferred method, the piston stop is the Stihl method, look at the results and I guess you can see why. Stick to the manual next time and you won't have bent rods and busted pistons, hell look at mine, thats using a piston stop, not rope, and gently doing it the right way..
> 
> It was wrong of me to wonder why or how you did it, my bad, but put the blame where it belongs.



Oh, the manual.......thats right......., Stihl........? the manual........? the IPL.......? Hummm......all the things Stihl wants you to pay for (or go to a dealer that has less knowledge of the products they're selling than the person trying to service them his or her self) in order to service your own equipment: You have to be a dealer or know someone who is in order to work on your own equipment because Stihl is so afraid someone can be a do-it-yourself kind of person and do just as good, if not better, of a job at fixing their equipment than the johhny-come-lately "hey I'm a Stihl dealer" that is popping up on every corner nowadays. I've got to say, Stihl missed the bus when it comes to helping out the do-it yourself guy with enough knoledge to keep them coming back and buying parts from the dealer. To me, stihl products are starting to fall into the disposable category. Thank goodness for the used parts resources & forums like this!


----------



## joatmon (May 8, 2009)

*I must turn away now!*

Some like the rush of watching an accident, but it just isn't me. This is the bash Stihl thread of the year, perhaps of the entire existence of AS.

I'll predict that before it's over, someone will post something to the effect of: "Andreas Stihl ran over my crippled, pregnant mother and refused to pay for her broken cane."

for every thing under the sun, there is a time .........


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## indiansprings (May 8, 2009)

Dolmar 401 Pros & Cons
I'm thinking about replacing my MS180 with a Dolmar 401. I'm intrgued by it due to it's pro style build construction with a vertically split mag case. It's 6cc bigger at 39cc, and .3 BHP stronger at 2.3 bhp. Yet the weight is the same at 8.8 lbs. *The only draw back I see is that it only turns 12,000 RPMs, a lot less than a MS180 which turns 14,000-14,500. *I'm wondering if it's enough torquier that it may not actually turn that much slower in the cut though. On top of that, I may be able to get some RPMs out of it with a good port job. 

More importantly, how is the build quality? Is the rod and piston more durable than what I've found in the MS180? Can you work on this thing without it breaking on you? I'd like to see a forged rod rather than a piece of stamped sheet metal!


This was Brad's post I wonder if the rod failure had anything to due with the stress that it was put under running at those rpm's. HMMMM metal fatigue, stretching being abused by being run at who knows what rpms for the sake of a few video's to show the prowess of a modded saw. I may be wrong dosen't the 401 Dolmar also use a stamped rod? Why hasn't it been called out. What does a person expect out of a inexpensive home owner saw?
15,000-16,000 rpms with no issue, think the piston might have been weakened operating at those temperatures and speeds, sure as heck wasn't designed for it, but what the hell it was a piece of crap because it failed during tear down. I feel for whoever bought that saw off trading post.


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## teacherman (May 8, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Woodie put your pacifier back in and stop hollering, the other kids are trying to sleep,hehe



I looked up Billy Bob Teeth's pacifiers, and I found a picture of Woody at the last fambly reunion. They evidently bleeve that there sex stuff is best kept "in the fambly..."







So Woody, which one are you? :greenchainsaw:


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## Freehand (May 9, 2009)

I stuck a fork in it boys................she might be done...........maybe


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

*I don't know how much of this is just good natured humor , but B Snelling Posted some pictures and made a valid point. Look what Stihl is putting on some of their saws.

I respect Brad for doing that, and it seem some have headed off in another direction. Well how does it run? Will it cut wood?

That is subjective and hardly the point. The point is that the management at Stihl has made a decision to put second class cylinders on their saws.

Anybody believe that cylinder will run as smooth and strong? 

Anybody believe that it will last as long?

Stihl management could have a sticker on top each saw. "Oh by the way, this saw does not have a Mahle cylinder, it has one made in Brazil, but don't worry, it might look like hell, but the saw will run."


It might take a while, but it will come back and bite them.

I just bought a new 361. If I find a cylinder like that in my saw, they will never sell me another saw. *


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tom...I'm your friend. You know that. And I hope you're mine.
> 
> That said...stop dancing. Seriously. As long as you're in here looking like Andreas's puppet, people are going to be taking pot shots at you.
> 
> ...




Dear Woodie I am not dancing , I'm calling it as I see it. I realize many can't understand how come Thall didn't come up and say hey man Stihl will take care of that like he usually does when he see's a fault. I see a fault in the cylinder, no question on that, its crappy looking. Thats probly the 10th time I've said that btw. As this thread unfolded I've seen things that appear even worse than that cylinder, much worse. None of that matters to me, the only concern and the only question that was never answered is how does the saw run. I hear that does not matter, that is not the point, since when? That is the only point of a chainsaw, how well it runs and cuts, thats it and thats all. If the flaws in that cylinder do not affect the performance of the saw there is little ground to stand on to get a replacement cylinder free of charge, especially in this case when the saw was torn apart for what, profit, not because of a running issue.

I stated before if that saw was brought in with a complaint its not running right and I tore it apart and decided that crappy looking cylinder is the problem it would be replaced at no charge with a much better looking cylinder. None of this has taken place with this saw. Once again no ground to stand on for a free cylinder.

Now to Stihl and that cylinder from Brasil. Its been said Stihl pulled a fast one. Their quality is falling off, they are getting sneaky, they are cutting cost, the list is amazing considering not one single word of it can be taken as fact when its all assumtion. We have 4 saw builders saying these things, we have Brads cylinder as proof. If everything thats been said is true then there are another 7 million crappy cylinders being shipped out this year. Most will be Mahle, the same maker other saw makers are using. Sorry Woodie but I'm not buying it because of less than a hand full of cylinders. If 20,000 bad cylinders go out this year, not crappy looking but bad, out of 7 million you may get my ear. I know the camp Husky can relish in that hand full of cylinders, I find that funny considering Stihl is in a much better position than them, and no Husky man can dispute that with they just did a few months ago. Oh thats not the point, we're talking about a crappy looking cylinder, Stihl is going downhill and on and on and when we know for a fact who is going down by way of the pink slips, like it or not thats the facts as to who is really down, not assumtions, facts.

Far as ethics go I know mine are in tact but I got to wonder about yours and others. I know how the game is played around here, I know who the players are and I know how these threads work. I enjoy them and rarely ever get serious about anything. I really don't give a hoot in hell about saws at all but they are fun to fuss over, I like it. That said don't ever think I'm going to sit back and let you have your fun and me not get mine. You know as well as me you have nothing to offer cept bash Stihl every chance you get and thats fine, Fast does the same, though I wish he would quit knocking my customers, thats low, but anyway if the name of the game is hey there's a Stihl thread going on, lets go get on Hall, and that seems to be the case bigtime with you and Fast, thats all fine and well, I love it. That said if your questioning my ethics because I too like to have fun and send the BS right back then sorry Woodie, your gonna have to accept it. Neither you or Brad or anyone is gonna keep this cat from pouring it on when its being poured on. I like to mix it up and yes I'm gonna toss in things people don't like or can't take. I was called to this thread by Fast and hey ok, I'm here. Course I woulda come calling sooner or later, I can't pass up a BS thread like this and thats exactly how I see this thread, alotta fun, alotta asumtions, a crappy looking cylinder, to that I say BFD, cry me a river and get over it, but the fun, awwwwwwwwwwwwww yes, that I like. Ethics is two fold Woodie, you want ethics, start looking at everyones ethics, not just those you chose to, DEAL? If not oh well, DISMISSED! You knew I would use your own line on you sooner or later so shush punk!!


----------



## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Dear Woodie I am not dancing , I'm calling it as I see it. I realize many can't understand how come Thall didn't come up and say hey man Stihl will take care of that like he usually does when he see's a fault. I see a fault in the cylinder, no question on that, its crappy looking. Thats probly the 10th time I've said that btw. As this thread unfolded I've seen things that appear even worse than that cylinder, much worse. None of that matters to me, the only concern and the only question that was never answered is how does the saw run. I hear that does not matter, that is not the point, since when? That is the only point of a chainsaw, how well it runs and cuts, thats it and thats all. If the flaws in that cylinder do not affect the performance of the saw there is little ground to stand on to get a replacement cylinder free of charge, especially in this case when the saw was torn apart for what, profit, not because of a running issue.
> 
> I stated before if that saw was brought in with a complaint its not running right and I tore it apart and decided that crappy looking cylinder is the problem it would be replaced at no charge with a much better looking cylinder. None of this has taken place with this saw. Once again no ground to stand on for a free cylinder.
> 
> ...



cripe how long it take you to type that. At least there's not to many big words in there.


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## parrisw (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Dear Woodie I am not dancing , I'm calling it as I see it. I realize many can't understand how come Thall didn't come up and say hey man Stihl will take care of that like he usually does when he see's a fault. I see a fault in the cylinder, no question on that, its crappy looking. Thats probly the 10th time I've said that btw. As this thread unfolded I've seen things that appear even worse than that cylinder, much worse. None of that matters to me, the only concern and the only question that was never answered is how does the saw run. I hear that does not matter, that is not the point, since when? That is the only point of a chainsaw, how well it runs and cuts, thats it and thats all. If the flaws in that cylinder do not affect the performance of the saw there is little ground to stand on to get a replacement cylinder free of charge, especially in this case when the saw was torn apart for what, profit, not because of a running issue.
> 
> I stated before if that saw was brought in with a complaint its not running right and I tore it apart and decided that crappy looking cylinder is the problem it would be replaced at no charge with a much better looking cylinder. None of this has taken place with this saw. Once again no ground to stand on for a free cylinder.
> 
> ...



One question. Do you think its fair for two customers to pay the same for the same saw, one has Mahale, and one has a cheaper Brazil cylinder. I don't , but my 1 opinion won' amount to much to Stihl.


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## parrisw (May 9, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> cripe how long it take you to type that. At least there's not to many big words in there.



Must of been all night, he can only type with one finger.


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

Nitro-Fish said:


> Oh, the manual.......thats right......., Stihl........? the manual........? the IPL.......? Hummm......*all the things Stihl wants you to pay for *(or go to a dealer that has less knowledge of the products they're selling than the person trying to service them his or her self) in order to service your own equipment: You have to be a dealer or know someone who is in order to work on your own equipment because Stihl is so afraid someone can be a do-it-yourself kind of person and do just as good, if not better, of a job at fixing their equipment than the johhny-come-lately "hey I'm a Stihl dealer" that is popping up on every corner nowadays. I've got to say, Stihl missed the bus when it comes to helping out the do-it yourself guy with enough knoledge to keep them coming back and buying parts from the dealer. To me, stihl products are starting to fall into the disposable category. Thank goodness for the used parts resources & forums like this!



Oh my look at that sig of yours and tell me why your here, let me guess, hey join the crowd buddy. Things they want you to pay for, oh my, now we got bashers who feel Stihl should give stuff away for free. A piston stop costs 2.00, wow, bud if your that hard up I'll send you one for free, naaaa, to hell with ya, make it 5.00,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

parrisw said:


> One question. Do you think its fair for two customers to pay the same for the same saw, one has Mahale, and one has a cheaper Brazil cylinder. I don't , but my 1 opinion won' amount to much to Stihl.



Awwwwwwwwww grasshopper there lies another assumtion, is the Brazil cylinder really cheaper, I don't know, do you? I doult very seriously with the amount of cylinders Stihl buys from Mahle they cost them a arm and leg. That was a good question though, sorry I can't answer it without some numbers, not assumtions.


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> cripe how long it take you to type that. At least there's not to many big words in there.



Bout 5 minutes, how long did it take you to read it,LOLOL


----------



## blsnelling (May 9, 2009)

So Tom. How does using a rope instead of a piston stop cause the rod of a 180 to be bent when removing the flywheel nut with a scrench? I would honestly like to hear it from a pro. This was hashed out in detail when it happened, and the only thing I remember is some that said using too little and leaving the piston too high in the bore would put extra load on the rod. That piston stop looks pretty thin, so that can't be it.


----------



## HimWill (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Bout 5 minutes, how long did it take you to read it,LOLOL



Rock on Tom,they ain't gotcha yet!!


----------



## mowoodchopper (May 9, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You're right Tom. It's easy for me to take this stuff too personal. As you stated, our objectives are clearly different. It's simply a matter of principle to me. I know as well as you do that this P&C would likely live a long happy life. I also know that my porting would remove nearly every flaw I've pointed out. But as I've stated, that's all besides the facts to me. The quality if this casting sucks. That's all I've said, that's all I'm saying.
> 
> And it's not just a cylinder to me. It's one tiny piece that's exemplary of what I percieve to be the declining quality of Stihl ***. You can't deny that. The difference in opinions only comes in when you decide whether or not you care about anything besides performance. I do. I think most do. That's it in a nut shell. Plain and simple.



:agree2: Just have to put my 2 cents in ! I have read most of this thread and I have to say I agree with Brad on this. I don't really know Brad but it is evident to me he is just stating facts. As far as Trying to take stihl down I don't believe that! I also grew up with stihls and own 1 now and that is because I don't think they are the saw they used to be. And I know the huskys and dolmars have changed to, but for me the stihls have slipped the most in quality, For all you die hard stihl guys that's great, It takes stihl, husky and dolmar guys to keep them all in business. And as far as the cyl in ? there is no reason to comment, its all in the pics! As for the big pissing match I think to many are worried about putting the other guy down and don't even remember what they are arguing about!


----------



## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So Tom. How does using a rope instead of a piston stop cause the rod of a 180 to be bent when removing the flywheel nut with a scrench? I would honestly like to hear it from a pro. This was hashed out in detail when it happened, and the only thing I remember is some that said using too little and leaving the piston too high in the bore would put extra load on the rod. That piston stop looks pretty thin, so that can't be it.



Easy Brad, the piston stop is a certain thickness, your rope is not, it flattens under pressure, the piston stop does not. With the piston stop the rod, piston and crank are standing striaght up at its strongest point. You would have to mash the rod instead of bending to make it fail. With the rope you can't be certain exactly what position the crank, rod and piston are due to the rope flattening out. Take a piece of metal and put it on a angle and apply force it will bend. Take that same piece of metal and stand it striaght up and try to mash it striaght down, almost impossible.

I'm heading to bed Brad but as you can see regardless of who said what or how things are precieved it does not matter to me, I will jump right in and help you with a question best I can and argue with you 5 minutes later, it is as I said, nothing personal at all. Niters...


----------



## edisto (May 9, 2009)

gink595 said:


> I agree it does look horrible, but lets see what it will do. Will it last, and for how long. If were going to call it out, lets prove the hypothesis. And the Hypothesis is: The cylinder looks like junk, so therfore it cannot last. *Lets see what it can do*



You don't prove hypotheses, you support or refute them. But that's a different story...

Speaking of different stories: this story isn't about whether it will run. Never was, except when THALL started looking for a way out. This should have been a short story: once upon a time Brad said "Wow! This cylinder looks like crap." THALL said, "I hate to admit it, but it does." The end.

All you need to do is a thought experiment. Does quality craftsmanship produce a cylinder that will last longer? If you think the answer is no, then why pay the big bucks for a Stihl? If you think the answer is yes, then why does this turd have the Stihl name on it?


----------



## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> You don't prove hypotheses, you support or refute them. But that's a different story...
> 
> Speaking of different stories: this story isn't about whether it will run. Never was, except when THALL started looking for a way out. This should have been a short story: once upon a time Brad said "Wow! This cylinder looks like crap." THALL said, "I hate to admit it, but it does."
> 
> All you need to do is a thought experiment. Does quality craftsmanship produce a cylinder that will last longer? If you think the answer is no, then why pay the big bucks for a Stihl? If you think the answer is yes, then why does this turd have the Stihl name on it?



x10 Best post yet on this thread:agree2:


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

*I did not lay down $579 plus tax for a 361 because I didn't care whether the saw had a Mahle cylinder or some piece of chit from Brazil.

If I wanted junk, I would have bought a saw made in China. Then I would know I had junk, and some money left over.*


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## mowoodchopper (May 9, 2009)

I dont think the piston stop vs rope really pans out. No matter what position the piston is in when you crank the flywheel it still puts a straight line force on the rod the only diff would be the force on the crank itself. As far as the angle, the rod is not at a severe angle it can only move the width of the bore which isnt much on a saw that size. If you you lay the rod on its side and hit it in the middle ok thats gonna break or bend it as with any rod but the rope method I dont think puts any more stress than the piston stop if it does it would be very minimal. If the rod fails that easy its inferior no matter how you look at it! The only way I can see the rod would have more stress is if it were pivoting in the middle or touching the cyl and its not its just 2 ends pressure from one direction no matter how you look at it!


----------



## ropensaddle (May 9, 2009)

Wow, I am speechless I have seen better jugs on briggs and crappin I knew there was a reason I liked my husky's I almost want to dissemble Ms 200tt To see the quality.















































So can we summarize by saying Stihl#1 junk saw?


----------



## mowoodchopper (May 9, 2009)

The stihl vs dolmar vs husky thing is just like the old chevy vs ford deal!

The chevy guys have known all along which is best, the ford guys wont figure it out untill they buy a chevy!

Just giving you stihl guys a hard time, Stihl has had alot of good saws and even though they are not near as good as they used to be or even close to a dolmar! They still have one or two that are decent!

One more thing, the more I think about it the piston stop vs rope thing is out there , I dont think it makes a bit of diff, the rod is not bolted solid at either end and is the same length no matter what. I think that is a myth and its busted,,, the rod pivots on each end same pressure on rod no matter what position the crank is in!! If the rod was bolted solid on one end the angle would make a diff not in this situation.


----------



## ropensaddle (May 9, 2009)

mowoodchopper said:


> The stihl vs dolmar vs husky thing is just like the old chevy vs ford deal!
> 
> The chevy guys have known all along which is best, the ford guys wont figure it out untill they buy a chevy!
> 
> Just giving you stihl guys a hard time, Stihl has had alot of good saws and even though they are not near as good as they used to be or even close to a dolmar! They still have one or two that are decent!



Welp ya know a true story comes to mind here: I used to be a chevy man and I pushed around in them had six chevelles and one impala ss all failed then I got and old henry I hated it but I drove that old 67 swb for near ten years and sold it running! I then became a ford man until buying a new f 250 and it leaving me stranded twice in under 50000 miles and traded for a new dodge time will tell if it was the right choice. Imho nothing beats a real henry the old fords rock tough as nails I have a 66 f250 I drive now that I would put against anything built today. I have a 72 bronco I feel near the same about and a 78 f 350 that is in my project list old fords and husky's rule.


----------



## mowoodchopper (May 9, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Welp ya know a true story comes to mind here: I used to be a chevy man and I pushed around in them had six chevelles and one impala ss all failed then I got and old henry I hated it but I drove that old 67 swb for near ten years and sold it running! I then became a ford man until buying a new f 250 and it leaving me stranded twice in under 50000 miles and traded for a new dodge time will tell if it was the right choice. Imho nothing beats a real henry the old fords rock tough as nails I have a 66 f250 I drive now that I would put against anything built today. I have a 72 bronco I feel near the same about and a 78 f 350 that is in my project list old fords and husky's rule.



I dont agree with ya but thats ok!! I used to be a chevy man then bought a ford f350 diesel, 

Im still a chevy man, my old 74 will bury the ford someday!

But thats ok you can have the fords Ill take the chevys, there both broke so who gives a :censored:


----------



## ropensaddle (May 9, 2009)

mowoodchopper said:


> I dont agree with ya but thats ok!! I used to be a chevy man then bought a ford f350 diesel,
> 
> Im still a chevy man, my old 74 will bury the ford someday!
> 
> But thats ok you can have the fords Ill take the chevys, there both broke so who gives a :censored:



I would agree however that old henry did not break 10 years and sold it running only thing changed was alternator!


----------



## pgg (May 9, 2009)

All I can say is I'm glad all my stihls aren't the latest models. Declining quality always f**n sucks but seems it's accepted as normal today


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## husq2100 (May 9, 2009)

ok i havent read all 56 pages, i got about 7 in and had to grab my life jacket..... i think it looks crappy, i also think it will last and do the job it ment to. i think that it is not cool on a top dollar pro saw.

this is not the first time a 08-09 stihl has come into question. TW and others have noted big differences in casting and port timing on 260,440 and 660.

my way of thinking is that these saws dont have a long production life left and that the economics isnt there to spend on top qualaity castings etc as they wont get a return....

at the end of the day, stihl is a company and there number 1 goal is to turn a profit, there number 2 goal is........to turn a profit....everything eles comes after that, and is governed by that...

dont get all emotional about your favourite brand and that they wouldnt do that to you.....your only bs'n yourselves....

id be worried if the 441 and latest long range models are looking just as crap.

Serg

ps alot have said of the latest solo's like the 681's how beautifull the finish and casting is on the jugs.....id say they have the advantage of a brand new mold.


----------



## stipes (May 9, 2009)

Wow!!! That is unreal...I never would have expected to see something like that on a 260 pro...I hope that was a fluke,,just someone at the factory had a bad day and that one just slipped by...It happens sometimes...
What really worried me about that picture,,,scratches,,and the Ni.. chips...Did the flaking off cause that and spitted out,,and would it flak off more the longer you run it down the road???Was it chipped off from takin a hit from a worker puttin it together or poor adhesion??? 
I'm not gonna load the wagon before I hitch up the mules and give stihl the benifit of the doubt on this and wait for some ansewrs,,,just wondered how that got by the qc inspector...


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## ropensaddle (May 9, 2009)

stipes said:


> Wow!!! That is unreal...I never would have expected to see something like that on a 260 pro...I hope that was a fluke,,just someone at the factory had a bad day and that one just slipped by...It happens sometimes...
> What really worried me about that picture,,,scratches,,and the Ni.. chips...Did the flaking off cause that and spitted out,,and would it flak off more the longer you run it down the road???Was it chipped off from takin a hit from a worker puttin it together or poor adhesion???
> I'm not gonna load the wagon before I hitch up the mules and give stihl the benifit of the doubt on this and wait for some ansewrs,,,just wondered how that got by the qc inspector...



prolly the same guy that designed those flippy caps:monkey:


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## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

HimWill said:


> Rock on Tom,they ain't gotcha yet!!



He was down and out long time go HimWill. Don't come to bat if ya don't want to play with the big boys.


----------



## Andyshine77 (May 9, 2009)

What a thread, where do I start?

Obviously the cylinder is sub par to say the least, and I would expect better from Stihl.

Someone offered to buy the cylinder from Brad, than when he accepted the offer he was shot down for doing so. Why? Did anyone really think he would just give the cylinder away, than pay out of pocket to replace it when Stihl should replace it for free because it's defective, and yes to me that cylinder is defective. 

And man what is it with dealers? they just don't get it yet. If you let this crap continue, things will only get worse, not better. This goes for all dealers not just Stihl dealers.

I've also seen brad work and he does good work, anyone who says otherwise is just pointing fingers to try and make him look bad. That's just the way it goes on these forums, it's happen before and it will happen again. The rod and piston on that 180 is pathetic, I don't care how it happened, when I see junk I know it.

I'm just telling it how it is, nothing more nothing less.


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## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Bout 5 minutes, how long did it take you to read it,LOLOL



Once I got past the propaganda about 3,4 sec. LOL


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## stipes (May 9, 2009)

Gotta say my thought on this also...
I hope that was a fluke that went by,,and if this wasnt,,I always been a big Stihl fan,,but to me my love is always the old school Mcculloch's....If this is what is becomin of Stihls,,it tells me the love of money is better than their pride of making a good product for the money you spend for it..
You get a old mac you look at the bottom of them,,they will have a stamp,,a qc # and who passed it...I think in my eyes profit vers. quality is going to be the trend now days,,and damn sad ......
I work for a company here in Richmond that makes power cable for power plants,,railroad,,ect..I work as a mech. craftsman,,,been a journeyman tool and die maker since 1986....Seen shortcuts took and the older production workers raised hell about ,,upper management wouldnt listen to them and it came back and bit the comapny in the butt...almost 1 million dollars of re work came back....Just glad it was caught in time or I would be lookin for another job now....
Just a thought,,if it would save 25 dollars a saw,,just a thought as I say this cause i dont know ,,but how much profit would you get per shift and pushing lets say 100 saws a hour,,take that with 24 hours a day if you work a 3- 8 hour shifts,,5 days a week...It does add up.......
All and all....I hope Stihl realize,,as alot of us on AS have a few Stihl saws in our stable...When we pull a Stihl out to do work for someone and they say,thats a damn nice saw,,,or is it going to become they say nothing and think to themself thats a piece of #### he got....Thats what happened to Mcculloch my friends....Went cheep and see what happened to them.......


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## Wild Knight (May 9, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Must of been all night, he can only type with one finger.



Now that's funny...


----------



## spike60 (May 9, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> And man what is it with dealers? they just don't get it yet. If you let this crap continue, things will only get worse, not better. This goes for all dealers not just Stihl dealers.



What, we're all the same? 

Andy, you ought to do some reading before you lump us all together.


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## Wild Knight (May 9, 2009)

*Homework*

OK, seems the consensus is that quality is failing. While this may not directly affect the performance of Brad's 260, it is a indication that Stihl might be going down a failing path, which will eventually lead to poor reliability down the road. 

So, Stihlheads, you have homework today. I want you to all copy Brad's photos and put them in a Word document or PDF. Then, write your own captions to what you think is wrong with the machining work (possibly materials) on the particular part in the photo. Then, send the document off to:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected] 
[email protected]


Don't make it a whiny complaining email. Don't threaten to leave as a customer. Just put in the facts and let Stihl know you are unhappy with failing quality control. There is strength in numbers. I am not naive to think it may change anything, but doing something is better than just complaining. 

Thanks for the pics Brad.


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## Wild Knight (May 9, 2009)

Interesting link about how they build their motors:

http://www.stihl.com/werksfuehrung/default.htm


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## weimedog (May 9, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> What a thread, where do I start?
> 
> Obviously the cylinder is sub par to say the least, and I would expect better from Stihl.
> 
> ...



Dealers are supported by their choosen companies distribution channels which are in turn supported by their companies manufacturing & QA processes. Statistically I'm certain there are good and bad as with all things human. Ultimately the manufacturing process is either good or not and the QA is either good or not. By the time something like that cylinder gets to the dealers there have been several break downs in the manufacturing and QA upstream.

One cylinder sneaking thru should not be a reason to completely give up on Stihl or any other company. Its going to happen occasionally to any company....but if this turns into a trend, then you may be seeing the effects of descisions upstream of a company feeling the pressure of both the economy and the competition. Time will tell and all the dealer pressure won't make one bit of difference because its too late at that point.

Either way, to this point in time its appears to be an anomoly not a trend so this really isn't helping anything or anyone. Untill there is an increase in reports of Stilhs having failures because of sub-par castings..this is just smoke.

(Although this is an anomoly, I love the attempts already to define whats serviceable to justify a potential sub-par manufacturing and QA processes...shades of those "perception of quality" seminars GM put on in the 1990's. Where does that line of discussion put those who go there on the credibility scale?)


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## mowoodchopper (May 9, 2009)

weimedog said:


> One cylinder sneaking thru should not be a reason to completely give up on Stihl or any other company. Its going to happen occasionally to any company....but if this turns into a trend, then you may be seeing the effects of descisions upstream of a company feeling the pressure of both the economy and the competition. Time will tell and all the dealer pressure won't make one bit of difference because its too late at that point. quote;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Woodie (May 9, 2009)

Dear Tom:

How *you* see yourself:


THALL10326 said:


> Dear Woodie I am not dancing , I'm calling it as I see it.




How *others* see you:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bJm4MqhWLcA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bJm4MqhWLcA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## blsnelling (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Easy Brad, the piston stop is a certain thickness, your rope is not, it flattens under pressure, the piston stop does not. With the piston stop the rod, piston and crank are standing striaght up at its strongest point. You would have to mash the rod instead of bending to make it fail. With the rope you can't be certain exactly what position the crank, rod and piston are due to the rope flattening out. Take a piece of metal and put it on a angle and apply force it will bend. Take that same piece of metal and stand it striaght up and try to mash it striaght down, almost impossible.
> 
> I'm heading to bed Brad but as you can see regardless of who said what or how things are precieved it does not matter to me, I will jump right in and help you with a question best I can and argue with you 5 minutes later, it is as I said, nothing personal at all. Niters...



Thanks for the info Tom.


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## mowoodchopper (May 9, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> What a thread, where do I start?
> 
> Obviously the cylinder is sub par to say the least, and I would expect better from Stihl.
> 
> ...




:agree2: Gotta say Andy hit the nail on the head !! There is NO excuse for the 180 rod, or the 260 cyl ! Its all hog wash and excuses !!!


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Dear Tom:
> 
> How *you* see yourself:
> 
> ...



Dear Woodie you prove my point 100%, you have nothing to offer, completely clueless except to come in and have fun, I'm game and now lets let the fun begin, lets see how much you can take, hows work Woodie? Do you wish you had been working at Stihl instead of Ford, lets see how much that gut of yours can take now ole boy and don't get mad because I'm having my fun just like you,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

Wild Knight said:


> OK, seems the consensus is that quality is failing. While this may not directly affect the performance of Brad's 260, it is a indication that Stihl might be going down a failing path, which will eventually lead to poor reliability down the road.
> 
> So, Stihlheads, you have homework today. I want you to all copy Brad's photos and put them in a Word document or PDF. Then, write your own captions to what you think is wrong with the machining work (possibly materials) on the particular part in the photo. Then, send the document off to:
> 
> ...



Now THAT'S the sensible response I would have expected 800 or so posts ago. Well done.

Like THALL said, they aren't concerned about customers who tear down their saws because it's a small proportion of their sales. Letting them know that you care about quality might not make a difference, but you will find out where Stihl stands these days.

I'm going to the basement to pat my 076.


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Dear Woodie you prove my point 100%



I thought you made a point of avoiding the point?


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

Andyshine77 said:


> What a thread, where do I start?
> 
> Obviously the cylinder is sub par to say the least, and I would expect better from Stihl.
> 
> ...



Good to see you speak your mind. Now I am gonna chime in on it. Nothing personal man!

This is not Brad's problem!!! This is not his saw. Ship it back to the owner and let him do the warranty work. Brad refused to work on it, which is fine. Ship it back and tell him you don't feel comfortable moddin' it. 

Sub par? Definitely. Defective? Hardly. We don't even know how it ran. 

"When I see junk I know it" Guess it took a while for that 5100 of yours to be called junk. Same thing with that 346 that was giving you problems. As far as we know, that cylinder doesn't look pretty and has a chip. Other than that, we know nothing else about it. Let's not jump to conclusions. Hopefully stihl takes a look in the mirror and realizes that their equipment needs to look as good as it functions. 

I love how everyone claims that Stihl charges a premium price. Hardly, if 30 to 50 bucks is a premium price, give me a break. The only company that really has good prices on certain saws is Redmax. People buy these saws on the internet thinking they are getting a deal. Factor in shipping and the price difference is moot. Talk to your dealer about price, get a freebie thrown in. Are you really gonna pay the kind of money people ask for Efco's or Echo's? Just about every saw available out there are priced closely to any stihl saws in the same category. The 260 is the only stihl saw that is costs vastly more than the competitors. Options are great and I love checking out all saws, but Stihl's don't cost a premium price!!!


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## Woodie (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> I thought you made a point of avoiding the point?



Outstanding, edisto!!

*GROUND CONTROL TO MAJOR TOM!!! *

:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Sub par? Definitely. Defective? Hardly. We don't even know how it ran.





epicklein22 said:


> Are you really gonna pay the kind of money people ask for Efco's or Echo's?



This is the logic that I don't understand. The first statement suggests that the Efco and Echos are worth the money as long as they run.

It seems to boil down for some that: "yes it's crap, but it's Stihl crap, so it must be good crap."

Crap is crap...producing a quality product in the past should not give you a free pass to produce crap...but apparently it does with some people.


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## spike60 (May 9, 2009)

We're down to 10 members viewing; even The Perfect Storm eventually blew itself out.


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> This is the logic that I don't understand. The first statement suggests that the Efco and Echos are worth the money as long as they run.
> 
> It seems to boil down for some that: "yes it's crap, but it's Stihl crap, so it must be good crap."
> 
> Crap is crap...producing a quality product in the past should not give you a free pass to produce crap...but apparently it does with some people.



You factor in everything that is considered when buying a saw and tell me stihl isn't gonna win compared to those 2 other companies!! Stihl products are hard to turn down when everything is factored in. Come to Ohio and talk to the loggers, tree guys, landscapers. They will tell you why they run what they run. Nobody that I know around here is afraid to try another product if it is the better that what stihl offers in the class. Lots of brands being used around here, but the majority is Stihl. I wonder why? 

I run a majority of stihl products, but I am not afraid or bias to own or try another saw. MY 262xp is way better than a 361 IMO. The 026 is a nice saw (great design), but it is slow compared to the others on the market and pricey. I bought my 270 over a 350 husky, I just liked the stihl better.


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## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Good to see you speak your mind. Now I am gonna chime in on it. Nothing personal man!
> 
> This is not Brad's problem!!! This is not his saw. Ship it back to the owner and let him do the warranty work. Brad refused to work on it, which is fine. Ship it back and tell him you don't feel comfortable moddin' it.
> 
> ...



Been looking for a 441 Dealer quote 919.99 fullwrap 32. Madsens even 791.00 halfwrap 28


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

spike60 said:


> We're down to 10 members viewing; even The Perfect Storm eventually blew itself out.



Just a bunch of newbies drinking the kool-aid!!!:hmm3grin2orange:

I wonder why people fade away from this site over the years........


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Been looking for a 441 Dealer quote 919.99 fullwrap 32. Madsens even 791.00 halfwrap 28



Obviously you gotta shop around. You would love my closest husky dealer. Just sold their old edition 346 earlier this year. They also charge shipping on any part that needs to be ordered. I paid 15 bucks for a 7 dollar part not too long ago. 85.00 bucks an hour too for repair services.


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## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Just a bunch of newbies drinking the kool-aid!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I wonder why people fade away from this site over the years........



Just like people come and go from anything Burnout or lost interest.


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## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Obviously you gotta shop around. You would love my closest husky dealer. Just sold their old edition 346 earlier this year. They also charge shipping on any part that needs to be ordered. I paid 15 bucks for a 7 dollar part not too long ago. 85.00 bucks an hour too for repair services.



You ever hear of Madsens. LMAO


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## gink595 (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> I'm going to the basement to pat my 076.



Is that what you call it?? I know alot of people like to name their members but C'mon 076!!!:greenchainsaw:


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> You ever hear of Madsens. LMAO



Ya, too bad they aren't a sponsor. Hope you don't get banned for mentioning them. Been there done that.

Besides, I got a good husky dealer, just a little farther than I like.


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> I thought you made a point of avoiding the point?



No Ed, I drove home the point on Woodie, thats all. He enjoys dishing as hard as he can with no vested interest what so ever in this thread, this is all fun to him, he loves tormenting me with anything he can and I don't mind but hey two can play that game, what I said to him was low, it cut deep I know but he deserved it and I'm just getting warmed up,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

I'm having a tuff time today with selling Stihl, 10 out the door already, and playing here as well. I'll chime in as time and sales permits, I wanna give Woodie some more,LOLOLOL


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## Freehand (May 9, 2009)

freehandslabber said:


> I stuck a fork in it boys................she might be done...........maybe



Wrong again,wrong again................................
:deadhorse::computer2:


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

mowoodchopper said:


> :agree2: Gotta say Andy hit the nail on the head !! There is NO excuse for the 180 rod, or the 260 cyl ! Its all hog wash and excuses !!!



:agree2:


----------



## spike60 (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No Ed, I drove home the point on Woodie, thats all. He enjoys dishing as hard as he can with no vested interest what so ever in this thread, this is all fun to him, he loves tormenting me with anything he can and I don't mind but hey two can play that game, what I said to him was low, it cut deep I know but he deserved it and I'm just getting warmed up,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I'm having a tuff time today with selling Stihl, 10 out the door already, and playing here as well. I'll chime in as time and sales permits, I wanna give Woodie some more,LOLOLOL



Ten by lunch time? You're still the champ!!!


----------



## PB (May 9, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Ten by lunch time? You're still the champ!!!



I might need to get my boots on, it's getting deep.


----------



## ropensaddle (May 9, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> I might need to get my boots on, it's getting deep.



Hmmmmmmmm the junk champ :monkey: So is it Tom or Fred Sanford


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## Woodie (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I'm having a tuff time today with selling Stihl, 10 out the door already,



In other words, Tom got a shipment of ten units this morning, and he still hasn't brought 'em inside...



.


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## Woodie (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> hows work Woodie? Do you wish you had been working at Stihl instead of Ford



Do you wish stihl hadn't compromised its ethics by putting crap cylinders in saws and selling them for the same price as the good ones...just so they could 'keep the lines running?'

I guess the diference here is that...I'll get another job. But it's gonna be awfully tough for you to come on here and 'defend stihl's honor' in the future. 


.


----------



## spacemule (May 9, 2009)

Woodie said:


> But it's gonna be awfully tough for you to come on here and 'defend stihl's honor' in the future.
> 
> 
> .



You know Tom. He'll just argue that Stihl is honorable because Brad Snelling sold a chainsaw part.


----------



## bookerdog (May 9, 2009)

Well at least we don't have to here the excuss *QUALITY COST* when someone complains about steals prices.


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## THALL10326 (May 9, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Ten by lunch time? You're still the champ!!!



Make it 13 by 1.25pm. Mostly trimmers and blowers. They are messing up my fun time Spike, gonna have to get ruff with these customers so I can come play, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,


----------



## edisto (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Come to Ohio and talk to the loggers, tree guys, landscapers. They will tell you why they run what they run.



Go to Ohio with pics of that cyliner and that tuff looking rod (show them THALLS gently coaxed rod, it doesn't have to be bent to look like cheap crap). Show them to the loggers without telling them the brand and ask them what they think.

You'd be a fool to argue that there is not a reason for loyalty to the Stihl brand. But you'd be an even bigger fool to hope that will be enough to get people to overlook shoddy workmanship and materials.


----------



## edisto (May 9, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Ten by lunch time? You're still the champ!!!



Hall & Oates "Out of Touch" outsold The Beatles' "Hey Jude" by over two and a half million copies.


----------



## edisto (May 9, 2009)

gink595 said:


> Is that what you call it?? I know alot of people like to name their members but C'mon 076!!!:greenchainsaw:



Actually, I call it 076 Super.

And it's much more satisfying than viewing THALL's mental self-gratification...especially without the AV.









...and only takes about 20 seconds.


----------



## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Good to see you speak your mind. Now I am gonna chime in on it. Nothing personal man!
> 
> This is not Brad's problem!!! This is not his saw. Ship it back to the owner and let him do the warranty work. Brad refused to work on it, which is fine. Ship it back and tell him you don't feel comfortable moddin' it.
> 
> ...



Well either Dolmar is too cheap, or Stihl is too high. Take your pick. I have both.

But I will say that if I find a piece of junk for a cylinder in my new 361, it won't live here long.

And don't tell me that the saw will run and cut wood. 
There is more to a quality saw than that.


----------



## Paul001 (May 9, 2009)

Wild Knight said:


> OK, seems the consensus is that quality is failing. While this may not directly affect the performance of Brad's 260, it is a indication that Stihl might be going down a failing path, which will eventually lead to poor reliability down the road.
> 
> So, Stihlheads, you have homework today. I want you to all copy Brad's photos and put them in a Word document or PDF. Then, write your own captions to what you think is wrong with the machining work (possibly materials) on the particular part in the photo. Then, send the document off to:
> 
> ...



Finially a sensable suggestion in this thread.

Get at it folks, might be interesting to hear the responses you get. As I said several pages ago, it doesn't matter what we think of the workmanship, Stihl ultimately determines if the quality seen in those photo's meets their requirements.


----------



## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> You factor in everything that is considered when buying a saw and tell me stihl isn't gonna win compared to those 2 other companies!! Stihl products are hard to turn down when everything is factored in. Come to Ohio and talk to the loggers, tree guys, landscapers. They will tell you why they run what they run. Nobody that I know around here is afraid to try another product if it is the better that what stihl offers in the class. Lots of brands being used around here, but the majority is Stihl. I wonder why?
> 
> I run a majority of stihl products, but I am not afraid or bias to own or try another saw. MY 262xp is way better than a 361 IMO. The 026 is a nice saw (great design), but it is slow compared to the others on the market and pricey. I bought my 270 over a 350 husky, I just liked the stihl better.



You don't have to wonder why, You know why. Because of quality products that would last. but, let the loggers, tree guys and landscapers find out how Stihl has put profit over quality , let them get some saws with junk cylinders, and see what happens to their loyality.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> Go to Ohio with pics of that cyliner and that tuff looking rod (show them THALLS gently coaxed rod, it doesn't have to be bent to look like cheap crap). Show them to the loggers without telling them the brand and ask them what they think.
> 
> You'd be a fool to argue that there is not a reason for loyalty to the Stihl brand. But you'd be an even bigger fool to hope that will be enough to get people to overlook shoddy workmanship and materials.



I am sure that General Motors thought they were too big to fail. Some of their dealers probably thought the same thing.

Kind of looks like they are on the ropes now.

Anybody who thinks that a drop in quality will not affect their sales is not living in the real world.:greenchainsaw:[/I]


----------



## Adirondack (May 9, 2009)

Has anyone seen the same problem with other Stihl saws? 

If this is just one isolated case it is probably no big deal. 

I guess you just assume if the Stihl name is on it it is the best quality. I guess all they really have to produce is quality that will last the year of the warranty. As a home owner I was seriously considering a Stihl. I generally like to buy the best quality because I have learned my lesson when I buy lower quality tools. It was hard for me to take the leap of faith and buy a dolmar instead of Stihl. 

I knew if dolmar (and Husky) were getting such good reviews from people who really liked Stihl saws they must be doing something as good or better. For dolmar and Husky to even compete with Stihl they would have to put out either as good or better quality than Stihl to compete with brand loyalty. I took a chance that dolmar needed to be better just to compete as an equal and that is why I bought a dolmar instead of a Stihl. Plus I did feel like my money was better spent considering reviews, weight to power, and cost. I do understand many companies rely on their reputation and when the company gets very big the prospective of quality seems to diminish. Mainly because many of the corporate people probably do not have experience to know how QUALITY is what built the company in the first place.


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## litefoot (May 9, 2009)

Jtheo said:


> I am sure that General Motors thought they were too big to fail. Some of their dealers probably thought the same thing.
> 
> Kind of looks like they are on the ropes now.
> 
> Anybody who thinks that a drop in quality will not affect their sales is not living in the real world.:greenchainsaw:[/I]



Everyone else has posted on this thread, so I guess I might as well do my part to lengthen it out a bit.

My saws are almost exclusively Stihl because I believe, up until now, they are built better and I KNOW they have higher resale value and dealers are everywhere. Husky saws generally have better anti-vibe, filtering and I like the fact that they aren't afraid to put out a take-no-prisoners hot saw (see the 262XP). But the Stihl advantages are more important to me. If you take that build quality away, then resale value will diminish over time, and it won't make much sense to pay the premium.

I'm not insinuating that the quality is tailing off. That cylinder may be an aberation. Just making a general statement that probably applies to a lot of us.


----------



## Andyshine77 (May 9, 2009)

spike60 said:


> What, we're all the same?
> 
> Andy, you ought to do some reading before you lump us all together.



Good point not every dealer is the same

I've read every post in this thread and I've drawn my own conclusions.

I was very open with the issues I had with my 5100, from day one, and my 346 stihl has some issues that need to be worked out before I'm 100% satisfied with it.

I'm not a spin doctor, I try and call it as I see it.


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## Andyshine77 (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Good to see you speak your mind. Now I am gonna chime in on it. Nothing personal man!
> 
> This is not Brad's problem!!! This is not his saw. Ship it back to the owner and let him do the warranty work. Brad refused to work on it, which is fine. Ship it back and tell him you don't feel comfortable moddin' it.
> 
> ...



Like I said, I was up front with how I felt about my 5100 from day one.http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=83208&highlight=5100


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

Enough with the misdirection.

Whether is runs or not is STILL not the issue. Never was the issue. The only way the (necessarily short term) performance would matter would be if you were trying to make the argument that what we saw was not shoddy work, but in fact the latest in engineering. 

Was that "chip" actually a speed divot? Is the uneven casting on the cooling fins a clever way to harness turbulent flow for more efficient cooling? Does chamfering only one side of a transfer actually improve scavenging? Does the lip on the intake produce resonant effects that stuff the crankcase with a high-pressure air-fuel mixture? Maybe THALL is right...maybe these cylinders are more expensive than the German-made ones because of all these new innovations.

"Does it run?" is not the question. It it sub-par? There doesn't seem to be any disagreement there. 

A comparison with a saw sporting a German-made cylinder might be interesting, but I'll tell you right now, if a saw with that cylinder performed as well as a Stihl with a well-made cylinder, that would not be saying ANYTHING good about Stihl products.

Joat, I've always enjoyed your posts because you've often made sense in a storm of confusion. I can see why you might be disappointed in Brad for rescinding his offer, but that is a topic for a different thread, because it adds nothing to issue addressed by this one.

Edit: That's spooky...Joat's post disappeared into thin air


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## parrisw (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Awwwwwwwwww grasshopper there lies another assumtion, is the Brazil cylinder really cheaper, I don't know, do you? I doult very seriously with the amount of cylinders Stihl buys from Mahle they cost them a arm and leg. That was a good question though, sorry I can't answer it without some numbers, not assumtions.



You dance good. 

I'll rephrase it then. Do you think its fair to install a lower quality cylinder and charge the same price?? And don't tell me its not lower quality.


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> Go to Ohio with pics of that cyliner and that tuff looking rod (show them THALLS gently coaxed rod, it doesn't have to be bent to look like cheap crap). Show them to the loggers without telling them the brand and ask them what they think.
> 
> You'd be a fool to argue that there is not a reason for loyalty to the Stihl brand. But you'd be an even bigger fool to hope that will be enough to get people to overlook shoddy workmanship and materials.



Ha, most if not all the pros would just take that cylinder and run it. No questions asked. It may not look pretty, but that isn't it's purpose. It is to perform effectively. We don't even know if this cylinder achieves that!!! 

Would I like to see better craftsmanship? Yup, but if that saw performs like it should, those people will be lining up to buy another one.

Take that 076 you have. You seem to just love it. I have worked on/owned around 10 of them. They are tough, but lots can be improved. Heck, I had a cylinder that lost all the plating, must have been a Brazilian one. The muffler covers are cheap and break easily and the starter cover uses too small of bolts and strip out all the time. Not to mention the muffler baffles breaking all the time. To top it off, the whole thing vibrates loose all the time. You know why people over looked those problems? Because the 051/075/076 are dead reliable saws that get the job done! I don't doubt that 260 would do the same.


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

Jtheo said:


> You don't have to wonder why, You know why. Because of quality products that would last. but, let the loggers, tree guys and landscapers find out how Stihl has put profit over quality , let them get some saws with junk cylinders, and see what happens to their loyality.:hmm3grin2orange:



Haven't heard one peep about Stihl quality from any of the dealers around here. 

Like I said earlier, people aren't afraid to pay for the good stuff. Seems most are happy with what stihl offers.

You have to see it from the consumers point of view. Chainsaws are a tool, not a hobby or anything like that. If the product runs and works as it should, then most are happy as hell. 

All of this doesn't make it ok for stihl to decrease their quality control, but people have blown this out of context thinking that the cylinder is just plain garbage that wouldn't even work. It might be, but we don't know because he wouldn't let someone run it!

Check my 064 to 066BB thread. My cylinder didn't look pretty, but that wouldn't stop me from buying another one because it runs strong.


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Make it 13 by 1.25pm. Mostly trimmers and blowers. They are messing up my fun time Spike, gonna have to get ruff with these customers so I can come play, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,



WHAT?? Mostly trimmers and blowers? 

:hmm3grin2orange:Man, the word got out fast on the chainsaws.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> It may not look pretty, but that isn't it's purpose. It is to perform effectively. We don't even know if this cylinder achieves that!!!



So your argument is that there is no relationship between cylinder finish and cylinder performance? Looking pretty is not the issue, it looks like crap because it was made like crap.



epicklein22 said:


> Take that 076 you have. You seem to just love it.



Call me fickle, but if that 076 looks like that when I open it up I'll be shocked as hell, and will fall out of love pretty quickly.


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Ha, most if not all the pros would just take that cylinder and run it. No questions asked. It may not look pretty, but that isn't it's purpose. It is to perform effectively. We don't even know if this cylinder achieves that!!!
> 
> Would I like to see better craftsmanship? Yup, but if that saw performs like it should, those people will be lining up to buy another one.
> 
> Take that 076 you have. You seem to just love it. I have worked on/owned around 10 of them. They are tough, but lots can be improved. Heck, I had a cylinder that lost all the plating, must have been a Brazilian one. The muffler covers are cheap and break easily and the starter cover uses too small of bolts and strip out all the time. Not to mention the muffler baffles breaking all the time. To top it off, the whole thing vibrates loose all the time. You know why people over looked those problems? Because the 051/075/076 are dead reliable saws that get the job done! I don't doubt that 260 would do the same.



Incredible!!!

or maybe Not credible!!! Not sure now. Oh well.:deadhorse:


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> So your argument is that there is no relationship between cylinder finish and cylinder performance? Looking pretty is not the issue, it looks like crap because it was made like crap.
> 
> 
> 
> Call me fickle, but if that 076 looks like that when I open it up I'll be shocked as hell, and will fall out of love pretty quickly.



Small casting flash and marks like Brad pointed out are a moot point for performance. All BB cylinders look like that. Port shape, blowdown, timing, compression, piston fit with the bore and rings. Those things are a lot more important. If you do some reading on porting, you will see some funny shaped ports, definitely not pretty, but the saws run good. If you ran a 260 with a mahle cylinder and one with the Brazilian cylinder, I bet you wouldn't notice a difference at all. Some argue that a polished exhaust does little for performance, if any. They do it anyways to prevent carbon build up. As for the intake, a rough finish is good for a tumbling affect of the charge. There was a chip on the plating, that was the worst problem. Luckily it wasn't where the piston will affect it. I would have failed it for that problem just to be safe. Other than that, that cylinder is gonna produce the power that Stihl advertises it to have.


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

Jtheo said:


> Incredible!!!
> 
> or maybe Not credible!!! Not sure now. Oh well.:deadhorse:



Say what you want newbie. I have owned over 100 saws (all brands and colors) and done just about all you can do to a saw besides actually reworking the ports. I am gonna voice what I believe and have experienced. I hope you can do the same and actually uphold some integrity.


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Say what you want newbie. I have owned over 100 saws (all brands and colors) and done just about all you can do to a saw besides actually reworking the ports. I am gonna voice what I believe and have experienced. I hope you can do the same and actually uphold some integrity.



What happened to the good natured fun here?


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Small casting flash and marks like Brad pointed out are a moot point for performance. All BB cylinders look like that. If you do some reading on porting, you will see some funny shaped ports, definitely not pretty, but the saws run good.



I wasn't talking about casting flash...to reiterate:



edisto said:


> Was that "chip" actually a speed divot? Is the uneven casting on the cooling fins a clever way to harness turbulent flow for more efficient cooling? Does chamfering only one side of a transfer actually improve scavenging? Does the lip on the intake produce resonant effects that stuff the crankcase with a high-pressure air-fuel mixture?



I have seen some "funny shaped ports", but they never struck me as poorly shaped ports. These definitely do.



epicklein22 said:


> As for the intake, a rough finish is good for a tumbling affect of the charge.



I'm no porting expert, but I sure know the flow difference between a rough finish and that finish. Rough is fine, as long as the surface is smooth apart from the finish. Divoting like that pictured as Brad creates BAD turbulence. 

Maybe you should do some rereading...I'm going out to punch some speed holes in my hood with a pickaxe.


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## epicklein22 (May 9, 2009)

edisto said:


> I wasn't talking about casting flash...to reiterate:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Full of the smart comments tonight huh? As for all your questions, who really knows what they would accomplish or prohibit. I know one thing though, it wouldn't be much of a difference in performance. Nothing noticeable, that is for sure. 

As for my comment on the intake, it was meant just to say that it is not critical for it to be smooth as silk and a little roughness is actually good. I agree that the ridges aren't helping anything, but the negative effects they have are little. 

Say all you want about the quality and finish. I don't like it either, but nothing can be proved it's performance or reliability without testing it. That is something we probably won't ever find out.

If you got a problem with it, voice your opinion to Stihl and spend your money else where.

Have fun tearing that 076 down. Pretty easy to do. Just remember to close the choke when taking off the nuts for the air filter base and make sure to tighten everything really well. Hopefully you don't find any little obscurities on the cylinder. I would hate to see you sell it because it doesn't pass your inspection test based on looks only. I guess quality is only skin deep.


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## Nitro-Fish (May 9, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Oh my look at that sig of yours and tell me why your here, let me guess, hey join the crowd buddy. Things they want you to pay for, oh my, now we got bashers who feel Stihl should give stuff away for free. A piston stop costs 2.00, wow, bud if your that hard up I'll send you one for free, naaaa, to hell with ya, make it 5.00,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Don't let the sig be the whole story; what it doesn't say is anything about the two FS 80's (one that I called you about this past week), the FS 110R, the BR 340 or the two BR 600's I also own. I've also worked on several Stihl saws (including my 056 Super) and all I'm saying is that stihl should loosen up a little with the IPL's & Service manuals: I called the shop you gave me the number for & I thought I was going to have to go visit them in person and show the parts person how to read his own parts diagrams. He initially told me "Stihl never made a FS 80 that had a needle & jet, are you sure its the original carburetor?" Several of us are quite able to repair and maintain our oun equipment, however when the people working the parts counters can't get the right part for you because they are not willing to look at anything other than the current production runs, it's really frustrating. At least I can call the Husky dealer with the parts numbers I need (from looking them up in the IPL's myself) and that cuts out any error other than my own. I am in no way a Stihl basher, I own too many of them myself, I do think they should look at some of their policies just like Husqvarna needs to re-think some of theirs. I can tell you this, I have never seen a cylinder that looks as bad as the one Brad posted, no matter which manufacturer it came from, it looks like poor quality. I can honestly say, I have never even seen an aftermarket cylinder that looks that bad. I would be afraid to modify that particular cylinder for fear of grinding into a porous chamber that would definately ruin it for sure. Brad was trying to modify the cylinder for performance gains; I know when I used to Drag race, we would do major modifications to the heads for performance gains, if I ever had to port a set of heads that looked that porous, I would thrown out the red flag too, its the same principal, you can't polish a turd.


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Say all you want about the quality and finish. I don't like it either, but nothing can be proved it's performance or reliability without testing it. That is something we probably won't ever find out.



I guess my point has always been that I had heard so many good things about Stihl (enough to make this Husky man want one) that I am completely taken aback by the "as long as it runs" attitude.

There are volumes written about cylinder and port finish, both from the standpoint of performance AND reliability. I just have a hard time believing that anyone with any mechanical aptitude would look at that particular cylinder and reach the conclusion that there was no way of knowing whether it would be outperformed the types of Stihl cylinders we are more used to seeing.



epicklein22 said:


> Have fun tearing that 076 down. Pretty easy to do. Just remember to close the choke when taking off the nuts for the air filter base and make sure to tighten everything really well. Hopefully you don't find any little obscurities on the cylinder. I would hate to see you sell it because it doesn't pass your inspection test based on looks only. I guess quality is only skin deep.



I don't think that my objections to the cylinder depicted by Brad are an example of overly fussy nitpicking. Like I said, I expect to have to do some cleanup on a cylinder. That's why I'm going in there in the first place.

I don't think it is too much to expect from a brand with Stihl's reputation that (apart from some flashing here and some rough spots there) it would look like it was done by someone that cared about what they were doing.

Thanks for the tip on the choke!


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## FATGUY (May 9, 2009)

holy crap, 43 minutes and no one has posted!!!


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## Jtheo (May 9, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> holy crap, 43 minutes and no one has posted!!!



Burned out.


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> holy crap, 43 minutes and no one has posted!!!



I think everyone is dizzy from going around in circles! 

(insert obligatory Chevy joke here)


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## spacemule (May 9, 2009)

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c1R92tEYePE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c1R92tEYePE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>


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## edisto (May 9, 2009)

Space...you got issues man.


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## spacemule (May 9, 2009)

:arg:


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

spacemule said:


> :arg:



Techno music and a pirate outfit? Your Saturday nights are definitely different than mine!

:monkey:


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## wigglesworth (May 10, 2009)

> Techno music and a pirate outfit? Your Saturday nights are definitely different than mine!


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## spacemule (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> Techno music and a pirate outfit? Your Saturday nights are definitely different than mine!
> 
> :monkey:



They were fresh out of Tarzan outfits.


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## CHEVYTOWN13 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> I think everyone is dizzy from going around in circles!
> 
> (insert obligatory Chevy joke here)



Hey bro, I'm burned out too Martin won though


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

I wonder how many as members are now dismantling their new stock stihls to see if they got the quality they paid for?


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## spacemule (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I wonder how many as members are now dismantling their new stock stihls to see if they got the quality they paid for?



All you'd have to do is pull of the top plastic to see flaws if they're as bad as that one.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

spacemule said:


> All you'd have to do is pull of the top plastic to see flaws if they're as bad as that one.



Agreed.


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## Evan (May 10, 2009)

did you guys realize you cant even follow this thread, myswell delete the hole dang thing


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## spacemule (May 10, 2009)

Evan said:


> did you guys realize you cant even follow this thread, myswell delete the hole dang thing



Uhmm, I have no trouble at all following it. That must mean the problem isn't the thread. Need some help with reading skills?


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## Mad Professor (May 10, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Uhmm, I have no trouble at all following it. That must mean the problem isn't the thread. Need some help with reading skills?




Ah, said like a true lawyer. Didn't read the fine print........


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## Sawdustmaker (May 10, 2009)

Evan said:


> did you guys realize you cant even follow this thread, myswell delete the hole dang thing


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## bcorradi (May 10, 2009)

Just out of curiosity...if this cylinder was a new "Mahle" would this thread have taken a different course?


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## belgian (May 10, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Just out of curiosity...if this cylinder was a new "Mahle" would this thread have taken a different course?



I doubt such beauty could have been produced in western europe, but in such case, Stihl could have gotten away with a "quality inspection default", but alas...


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## bcorradi (May 10, 2009)

I think you are right.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

All for one bad casting....out of millions. Just shows the angst against the ones who claim perfection and omni knowledge here at this site vs. anything real about Stihl. Get out doors and run those saws more!


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## fredmc (May 10, 2009)

*Hey THALL haha*

Hey THALL! Ha Ha look at that stihl turd cylinder! Looks like a crapsman/poulan cylinder. What do the have in VA? Illegal immigrants working in a cylinder sweatshop? for shame. Haha so much for being numbah one.
stihl sux.

Dolmars and Makitas have Mahle cylinders.


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## Fastcast (May 10, 2009)

This is cast from a mold so it's not just one bad cylinder. Obviously Stihl approved the mold for production....How many times does it need to be said? 

Now, if you want to continue making excuses by claiming one bad mold that slipped through, have at it....Maybe we can go another 900 post.


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## Crofter (May 10, 2009)

I know what happened! That cylinder was indeed culled in the inspection process but the fork lift driver put a pallet of culls onto the assembly line by mistake. Relax, quality control is as really as diligent as ever!

The emotional baggage clouding this thread, both pro and con, and all the performing for the cameras, reminds me of camera coverage of politicians at work on an issue. I dont agree with the deliberately inflamatory language used for the thread opener because that just about guaranteed that everyone else would be free to do the same and the award then goes to the most bizarre and outrageous statements. I agree with Brad's appraisal of its appearance though.

Quibbling over the suggestion that the sloppiness that WILL affect performance, doesn't matter, is ridiculous. That is a case of the defense being more a fraud than the original act.

The chipped plating and the possibility of further shedding is the most worrisome longevity related issue, but that well could have been a handling accident after the last inspection. I dont like the deliberate decision to cut the recess in the top of the cylinder portion but that is an issue for modders who want to cut the base and drop the cylinder down; you cant blame the manufacturer for having little sympathy for that when it saves them dollars in accurately finishing the normal traveled portion of the stock cylinder bore. 

I hope that this is not a general industry trend as has been suggested as it is at least an apparent drop in pride and it would be a sad thing to see happening. Is someone going to be making a post in the future railing about the crappy looking product that American junk has become.


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## mowoodchopper (May 10, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> This is cast from a mold so it's not just one bad cylinder. Obviously Stihl approved the mold for production....How many times does it need to be said?
> 
> Now, if you want to continue making excuses by claiming one bad mold that slipped through, have at it....Maybe we can go another 900 post.



:agree2:


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> This is cast from a mold so it's not just one bad cylinder. Obviously Stihl approved the mold for production....How many times does it need to be said?
> 
> Now, if you want to continue making excuses by claiming one bad mold that slipped through, have at it....Maybe we can go another 900 post.



I think your premis is off actually. You make huge assumptions about the entire manufacturing & QA process that I think are easy to assert on posts like this but in reality are not valid.

Manufacturing by nature is a "moving target". Especially the casting process with finishing operations. The game is to keep all things within a tolerance...and there are many things conspiring to keep parts out of tolerance.

Porosity usually isn't about a bad mold, but can radically effect down stream operations geometrically. Several factors could produce that porosity. From material (alloy could have been out of spec for that casting) to process. Also fixturing for any finishing process can be off for a variety of reasons. Doesn't damn the entire design thru manufacturing process because of one bad cylinder casting that also effects down stream processes. My bet is this was produced right after a setup from either maintenance or new manufacturing components. First few usually are tossed. One got thru.

If many of you folks found this stuff...then you all would have something to be crowing about. But this? Come on. This is why warrentee's are there, to catch stuff like that cylinder. And I wonder how long it would have performed had no one pulled apart that saw.


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> Doesn't damn the entire design thru manufacturing process because of one bad cylinder casting that also effects down stream processes. My bet is this was produced right after a setup from either maintenance or new manufacturing components. First few usually are tossed. One got thru.



So Brad should be out buying lottery tickets? He got the one bad cylinder that made it through, and that was the only cylinder they did the crap finish on? Those probabilities have to be multiplied together...or do the poor materials somehow shift the beveling on the ports?

No-one is saying (except in jest), based on this one cylinder, that Stihl sucks (except in jest). BUT something done this piss-poorly raises question about a potential change in Stihl's standards. 

The response to this question was not what I would have expected (take it to Stihl and they will publicly execute a couple of employees and mill you a cylinder from a titanium billet for your troubles). The response was "who cares, it <i>might</i> still run". That straw man was built larger when Brad changed his mind about sending the cylinder to Joat, because "now we will never know how the cylinder would run."

Take a look at the corner of this transfer:






I don't need to pull the chord to know my saw won't start if I pull the plug wire off, and I don't need to run that cylinder to know that corner is not going to be kind to the piston rings.

So..the question that needs answering is not: "will it run?" What we need to find out is what Stihl says when Brad confronts them with this turd of a cylinder.


----------



## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> on the ports?
> 
> No-one is saying (except in jest), based on this one cylinder, that Stihl sucks (except in jest). BUT something done this piss-poorly raises question about a potential change in Stihl's standards.
> 
> .



Valid question..so the antena is up...and if we don't hear or see anymore..then this will be as I suspect..an anomoly.



edisto said:


> Take a look at the corner of this transfer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes..I saw AND I know what I'm looking at. I spent my early years as a Manufacturing Engineer servicing a Cast Iron, Cast Steel, AND Cast Aluminum Foundry & Machining the resultant castings...and probably one of the first in this country to use "part probing" on a CNC Horizontal Milling machine to adjust programs for casting flaws....specialized in applying CNC to help supplement the then dying art of Pattern making. Also spent 25plus year racing motorcycles(MX and other offroad stuff)..matched many a port in those early days. Especially on those 125-250 Two strokes from Spain.

If that melt had issues or the mold failed to function properly ( Obviously there is Hydrogen Porosity all thru it and issues along the Parting Line both symtomatic of the origional issue) my bet is the casting is dimensionally off a bit as well. So when fixtured, all things done from that point down stream have a higher probability of being off. 



edisto said:


> So..the question that needs answering is not: "will it run?" What we need to find out is what Stihl says when Brad confronts them with this turd of a cylinder.



Also a valid question. We will wait and see. My bet is another cylinder will be on the way..and then this turns into YET Another a Stihl customer support success story, right?

But to me the bottom line is all manufacturing processes are going to have parts go bad from time to time. The QA process catches some and customers others. To this point in time ONE cylinder out of thousands and thousands from Stihl stumbled into the hands of someone (influential on this BB) who posted that pic.....until there is a trend, this is WAY over blown. When others find similar issues..then we can start making speculations about Stihl's QA..until then? I'm waiting for ANY real evidence that would prove this is the norm and not an anomoly.


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> Also a valid question. We will wait and see. My bet is another cylinder will be on the way..and then this turns into YET Another a Stihl customer support success story, right?



Absolutely, and that is what I'm hoping for. I like to poke fun at Stihl owners (which is harder to do now that I am one!), but only in fun. This is sad, not funny, and I'm sincerely hoping Stihl does the right thing, so that I can go back to making fun of Stihl owners.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> Absolutely, and that is what I'm hoping for. I like to poke fun at Stihl owners (which is harder to do now that I am one!), but only in fun. This is sad, not funny, and I'm sincerely hoping Stihl does the right thing, so that I can go back to making fun of Stihl owners.



They are too busy saying it does not affect performance to do the right thing such as; protest to the mighty corp and stand up for their customers.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> They are too busy saying it does not affect performance to do the right thing such as; protest to the mighty corp and stand up for their customers.



And who are "they", the folks at Stihl customer service or dealers who will interface with Stihl? Or those who argue here as they don't have enough to do.

I would be concerned if it was a Stihl employee, less so if its a Stihl dealer, but not at all if "they" are those here who believe they are some extension of Stihl's corperate marketing department.

And really...you can always find another Stihl dealer..maybe one of these "new to Stihl", JD "customer oriented" folks.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> And who are "they", the folks at Stihl customer service or dealers who will interface with Stihl? Or those who argue here as they don't have enough to do.
> 
> I would be concerned if it was a Stihl employee or dealer, but not if "they" are those here who believe they are some extension of Stihl's corperate marketing department.
> 
> And really...you can always find another Stihl dealer..maybe one of these new to Stihl JD customer oriented folks.


Lol so some of these dealers just believe or play like they are?


----------



## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol so some of these dealers just believe or play like they are?



No idea...:greenchainsaw:

And to you 15,000 something who view this....this Cylinder is STIHL just an Anomoly! Only ONE to this point in time! Keep that in mind...just one.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> So..the question that needs answering is not: *"will it run?" *What we need to find out is what Stihl says when Brad confronts them with this turd of a cylinder.



That actually is the question, if not the most important, the 2nd most important. How does it run? We have already heard from a well known Stihl tech, that if Brad brought that cylinder in looking to get it replaced because it "looks bad" but doesn't know how it runs, he doesn't have much of a foot to stand on. So what should have been done was put the saw back together, run it, I'll bet all the money I have it will run good, then take the saw as a whole to his dealer and lie saying this saw doesn't run good. Brad can mention that since he works on saws, that after taking off the muffler to check for p&c scoring, he noticed some "bad looking" casting and that "MAY" be the problem. Now that this was not done and it will never be proven the saw runs good, Stihl doesn't have to do nothing. However, I hope he gets another but you won't see Stihl stopping production on their cylinders just because they "look bad". It will HAVE to raise a performance, realiabilty or longetivity issue to stop millions of cylinders being made. Ya'll have blown this all to hell, insane it's Stihl going.....


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## Erick (May 10, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Just out of curiosity...if this cylinder was a new "Mahle" would this thread have taken a different course?



*Let's find out*. 
(Just for the sake of breaking a thousand.) 

I recently bought a new piston and cylinder kit for my 084, and was a bit surprised and disappointed with the quality of the new piston.





















The old piston is 116 grams, the new one is 124. 

Overall the new piston seems to be a bit beefier but the quality is horrible.

I plan on doing some modifications to this piston so it’s not a huge deal for me, it just means I have some extra work to do.

If I had bought this as a straight drop in I would have been pissed, as it is I’m not real happy about having to do someone else’s job for them. Seems like quality is slipping everywhere now-a-days.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> That actually is the question, if not the most important, the 2nd most important. How does it run? We have already heard from a well known Stihl tech, that if Brad brought that cylinder in looking to get it replaced because it "looks bad" but doesn't know how it runs, he doesn't have much of a foot to stand on. So what should have been done was put the saw back together, run it, I'll bet all the money I have it will run good, then take the saw as a whole to his dealer and lie saying this saw doesn't run good. Brad can mention that since he works on saws, that after taking off the muffler to check for p&c scoring, he noticed some "bad looking" casting and that "MAY" be the problem. Now that this was not done and it will never be proven the saw runs good, Stihl doesn't have to do nothing. However, I hope he gets another but you won't see Stihl stopping production on their cylinders just because they "look bad". It will HAVE to raise a performance, realiabilty or longetivity issue to stop millions of cylinders being made. Ya'll have blown this all to hell, insane it's Stihl going.....




I can only hope you don't speak for Stihl, especially Stihl Manufacturing and QA. That much porosity should not be acceptable reguardless of "if it runs" or not. There are many other issues that porosity can point to and effect in both the service life of a casting and the accuracy of the down stream manufacturing processes that in turn effect service life. So....maybe I should ask you, a "Technician" with tons of experience..is this the norm or the exception??


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

Erick said:


> *Let's find out*.
> (Just for the sake of breaking a thousand.)
> 
> I recently bought a new piston and cylinder kit for my 084, and was a bit surprised and disappointed with the quality of the new piston.
> ...



Cast vs. Forged? Extra weight vs. origional can effect the vibration of that particular saw.


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## Erick (May 10, 2009)

BTW I will be out most of the day (you guys do realize it's mothers day right??) but I will be back later to check in.... didn't want to be accused of drive by posting.  





Of course some of you already know the rest of the story.


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## FATGUY (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> Valid question..so the antena is up...and if we don't hear or see anymore..then this will be as I suspect..an anomoly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I appreciate your expertise on this subject. I've worked with castings a fair amount( both machining them while in my apprenticeship, and later building molds) and while I have nowhere the qualifications that you do, it has been my experience that there is not usually just one (Being a Stihlhead, I'd love to believe that) Having not examined the cylinder myself, it is difficult to determine whether it is the casting, or the machining that has gone bad. If the casting itself is at fault, it should not have been accepted, and likely the whole lot was this way (wonder why they didn't use lost foam molding?). If it was the machining, then yeah, in the best certified companies, one can get away. Also, as it has been pointed out, this is not the only Stihl model that had similar cylinder issues. (I believe someone also mentioned problems with the 460 cylinders)


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> I can only hope you don't speak for Stihl, especially Stihl Manufacturing and QA. That much porosity should not be acceptable reguardless of "if it runs" or not. There are many other issues that porosity can point to and effect in both the service life of a casting and the accuracy of the down stream manufacturing processes that in turn effect service life. So....maybe I should ask you, a "Technician" with tons of experience..is this the norm or the exception??



I don't work for Stihl and will say for the 2000th time, it doesn't look good and should have been pulled. I'm a auto tech and see castings worse than these in electronic throttle bodies, advanced designed intakes(not like a small block), VVT cylinder heads(uses a shaft/actuator to control intake and exhaust timing). I'm talking some very expensive internal engine componets. When near Tom's at my last class, I asked several quesitons on these componets because we have to diagnose and replace them when they fail or start to fail. Teach mentioned that if it runs, operates properly, then these poor looking flashings on the casts are just that "looks". If the engineers decide it will cause problems in the future due to porosity or anything else, the mold will be changed or redesigned. 

Out of all these cylinders made in 2008 and on, I haven't read of a single failure due to any of the casts pictured. Say they haven't been run hard or long enough and that's BS. We all know that along with home owners and loggers, the saws are distributed equally. When you see these cylinders starting to fail, you will see Stihl take action.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> No idea...:greenchainsaw:
> 
> And to you 15,000 something who view this....this Cylinder is STIHL just an Anomoly! Only ONE to this point in time! Keep that in mind...just one.



Thought the count so far was three and that some of the crude castings were found in the 660 and 460s also most saw men don't feel they have to tear down a new pro saw to inspect quality which may soon change. Then what will happen to the count?


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Thought the count so far was three and that some of the crude castings were found in the 660 and 460s also most saw men don't feel they have to tear down a new pro saw to inspect quality which may soon change. Then what will happen to the count?



How many do you predict will be tearing down their saws?


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> All for one bad casting....out of millions.





weimedog said:


> ...this Cylinder is STIHL just an Anomoly! Only ONE to this point in time! Keep that in mind...just one.



You obviously haven't read the whole thread. Several builders have reported this lack of quality in several different models of Pro Stihl saws? They were all Stihl castings, not Mahle. Try as you might, the facts are not that this is an anomoly. 

Who ever made the post obout a mechanic swapping out a crappy aftermarket cylinder and charging the customer for a Mahle cylinder hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no difference in what Stihl is doing here.

And to all of you guys that say, "Well if it runs fine, it's not an issue.". Remind me to never let you work on anything I own. I expect more than that when I pay good money for something. I could have done exactly that with the 260 and sent it back ported and running. Instead, I chose to make it my problem and deal with it. I care about my work, my reputation, and won't compromise because it's "not my saw". Sure, I could have just put it back together and sent it back to the owner and let him deal with it. I chose not to. Did I have to? No. I chose to. I'm doing the guy a favor and he's greatful for it and has thanked me for doing so.

And for all you guys that keep harping about no proof of performance issues, I guess you missed the post where the owner told me he was quite disappointed in the performance in the saw. I know, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is down on power, but the owner sure wasn't happy with it.

Bottom line, you're fishing for straws. It's absolutely incredible that some of you would even attemp to defend this. It's because of people like you that corporations get away with it. You don't have to look very far back in history to see what happens when profit becomes more important that quality. You guys are enablers. Period.

At his point, I don't even know what I'm going to do with it. I will be putting the new P&C on the customers 260 reguardless. I may give it back to the dealer just to see what Stihl will do about it. I'd like to know and I'm sure some of you would as well.


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Out of all these cylinders made in 2008 and on, I haven't read of a single failure due to any of the casts pictured. Say they haven't been run hard or long enough and that's BS. We all know that along with home owners and loggers, the saws are distributed equally. When you see these cylinders starting to fail, you will see Stihl take action.



Talk to other builders about the performance of the 660. The power band is much narrower. Porting is different and quality is down like shown in this thread. Yes, performance is taking a hit as well.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> How many do you predict will be tearing down their saws?



2k step away from your stihl put the scrench down now lol!


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## Jtheo (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I wonder how many as members are now dismantling their new stock stihls to see if they got the quality they paid for?




It has crossed my mind. I bought a new 361 the day before this thread started.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You obviously haven't read the whole thread. Several builders have reported this lack of quality in several different models of Pro Stihl saws? They were all Stihl castings, not Mahle. Try as you might, the facts are not that this is an anomoly.
> 
> Who ever made the post obout a mechanic swapping out a crappy aftermarket cylinder and charging the customer for a Mahle cylinder hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no difference in what Stihl is doing here.
> 
> ...




Good post Brad but you and I know a stock 260 isn't a screamer at all in stock form. Don't dare pick up a 5100 or 346 either. All the 026/260s I worked on or tuned got their muffler opened up and was a much better runner. I have had some that the owner didn't know how to tune a carb and this could be the case on the 260 you got. Might just be a lemon also, aside from the cylinder.

I'm not fishing for straws and hope Stihl keeps being #1, if "slipping" QC makes them hit rock bottom, I'll eat my crow. Until then, my next *** might just be a Stihl. I just see a bunch of talk that isn't going to amount to squat. I'd be intrested to hear if Stihl emails any of these fellers back.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> 2k step away from your stihl put the scrench down now lol!



You bashers are out of steam, LOLOLOL.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You obviously haven't read the whole thread. Several builders have reported this lack of quality in several different models of Pro Stihl saws? They were all Stihl castings, not Mahle. Try as you might, the facts are not that this is an anomoly.



OK. So how many, so far; have see castings like this from Stihl's?



blsnelling said:


> Who ever made the post obout a mechanic swapping out a crappy aftermarket cylinder and charging the customer for a Mahle cylinder hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no difference in what Stihl is doing here.



I agree because for a premium price you expect premium components..otherwize you would buy a Homeowners Husqvarna! (Like I did)



blsnelling said:


> And to all of you guys that say, "Well if it runs fine, it's not an issue.". Remind me to never let you work on anything I own. I expect more than that when I pay good money for something. I could have done exactly that with the 260 and sent it back ported and running. Instead, I chose to make it my problem and deal with it. I care about my work, my reputation, and won't compromise because it's "not my saw". Sure, I could have just put it back together and sent it back to the owner and let him deal with it. I chose not to. Did I have to? No. I chose to. I'm doing the guy a favor and he's greatful for it and has thanked me for doing so.


To the "technicians" of the world..that first line is dead on.
Good stuff for the rest of this section as well...wish the guy who replaced the Torque Amplifier on my 1066 felt that way!!!




blsnelling said:


> And for all you guys that keep harping about no proof of performance issues, I guess you missed the post where the owner told me he was quite disappointed in the performance in the saw. I know, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is down on power, but the owner sure wasn't happy with it.



Not suprised looking at that port...and how long would the ring last? Why warrentee's exist.



blsnelling said:


> Bottom line, you're fishing for straws. It's absolutely incredible that some of you would even attemp to defend this. It's because of people like you that corporations get away with it. You don't have to look very far back in history to see what happens when profit becomes more important that quality. You guys are enablers. Period.
> .



No..I don't consider myself as an enabler. Just want to see a trend before condeming an entire company. A trend in fact vs. speculation. I'm not certain that has happened yet.



blsnelling said:


> At his point, I don't even know what I'm going to do with it. I will be putting the new P&C on the customers 260 reguardless. I may give it back to the dealer just to see what Stihl will do about it. I'd like to know and I'm sure some of you would as well.



We will see....


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Talk to other builders about the performance of the 660. The power band is much narrower. Porting is different and quality is down like shown in this thread. Yes, performance is taking a hit as well.



If that's the case and I know some of those guys are the best in the biz, I'd like to see sales numbers for 660s from the last few years. That would be a good report to see but not sure if the tanked economy could fudge those numbers.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

Jtheo said:


> It has crossed my mind. I bought a new 361 the day before this thread started.:hmm3grin2orange:



What are you waiting on? Go ahead and pull it so we can see......


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

954..now 955


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## thomas72 (May 10, 2009)

Well it is about cutting cost and this is one way Stihl has to do this. It cost a good amount of money to produce a clean cylinder, and leaving it a little rough will lose a little power but it is still dependable. Remember this site is just a small fraction of the pro saw users and most of them will never open up a saw or worry about how fast it may cut. What most people want out of a working saw is for it to run and work properly. I am not saying I like to see quality drop in parts, but at least they are not making poor crank seals or bad intake boots. Every time I see a drop in quality I think of Maico. What a shame.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

thomas72 said:


> Every time I see a drop in quality I think of Maico. What a shame.



Yep haa..Maico Breako...not many were around to experience the little things like 1978's rear hubs that would frag, or the 1970'e era Maico's where the ignition covers would blow off after a main seal would wheep a bit of gas into the ignition area..the 1974's soft gears...What about that first year single shocker....where the shock interfere'd with the frame???? I think the only bike that left riders pushing more were the Ossa Phantom's.

I had a 1974 AW400, 1977, 1978. They are the what moved me to KTM's from 1978 to 1982!! Good handlers...while they ran! Origional leading axle forks w/ enough travel to make a difference! 1981 was their year to shine.

When I moved from Kawasaki to Honda in 1985...It felt like home again. The Honda's picked the good stuff about handling off the Maico's..left the rest.

Anyone who needs to understand the problems related to porosity in castings only needs to go back into Maico history!


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## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> What are you waiting on? Go ahead and pull it so we can see......



Ya just couldn't stay away could ya. LMAO


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> OK. So how many, so far; have see castings like this from Stihl's?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A totally fair, honest, excellent post. How many? I *think *Timberwolf, TreeSlingr', Erick, and maybe more but can't remember right now. Erick has seen numberous 660s come back with torn up cylinders this year, and mentioned them earlier on the thread. The common thread through all of them? Stihl cylinders!


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## whitedogone (May 10, 2009)

I would ask all the Naysayers (if that's what you'd call them) if they ordered a OEM clyinder from Stihl and this showed up if they would bolt it right up and say nothing. I for one wouldn't. WDO


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'm not fishing for straws and hope Stihl keeps being #1, if "slipping" QC makes them hit rock bottom, I'll eat my crow. Until then, my next *** might just be a Stihl. I just see a bunch of talk that isn't going to amount to squat. I'd be intrested to hear if Stihl emails any of these fellers back.



That's the frustrating part about most of the posts. People seem to care more THAT Stihl is number one than they do about WHY Stihl is number one.

I see a bunch of talk too, but talk ain't going to keep a ring in one piece while it is rubbing on those transfer edges.


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## tatra805 (May 10, 2009)

Germany is hit hard now and already during the last years, so i dont expect anything else than german companies looking for cost reductions.

From their side i understand completely and see the scenario. Find another supplier, test his products, analyze the actual failure rate and put it in relation to the warranty period. (remember, each defect after warrantee keeps the dealers busy and helps paying the mass number production of the parts (or do you really think a P&C cost 200$ or more to make))

What was not acceptable in high economic periods where a company is the biggest and best al of a sudden becomes a valid alternative when the economy goes down.

It is taking a risk but i am sure that Stihl did its testing and came to acceptable results. Nobody wants to kill its own company. So far functionality and defect rates. 

BTW same story with the carbs. They now are chinese and not japanese. Good for the Ultra-Sonic cleaning device market but a nightmare for my dealer.

Do i agree with this policy? As a customer not. if i would be part of the Stihl management maybe depending on the test results / savings and need. (let us not be arrogant to think the Stihl guys are idiots, so i probably would say yes)

So to this thread: 

This cylinder indeed looks crap and below the standard we expect from a company as Stihl.

Will we change it? no. Simple. NO. Unless the desicion shows to be a mistake (higher claims, more defects etcetc) they will not change anything.

Do we have an alternative? YES.


My dealer is p. off with Stihl (carbs, the last low end model quality and much more manufactering problems in the past years than before.) So our local Mr Stihl allowed the enemy in his house.

Hitachi power tools apperantly bought Tanaka and is marketing their garden tool range as Hitachi. "old style optics" but my dealer opened one up and all is stamped made in Japan. All saws are alloy housed, no clamshell designs. 
Models go up to 45cc. And my dealer is very clear about it. Mechanical superior than any homeowner range stihl of the last 5-10 years. Half the price of a Stihl and he gets free display of the tools (so no inventory cost) same next day delivery of parts and tools. 

His plan? Hitachi-tanaka for all small saws and only the pro series from stihl for anything 45cc up.

I was holding one and if you forget the outdated look of the thing it was actually cutting wood....

Wasnt that the purpose of a chainsaw in the end?


Dont kill each other or your relations about it. $ rules and nothing we will do about it. Ethic or not.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> That's the frustrating part about most of the posts. People seem to care more THAT Stihl is number one than they do about WHY Stihl is number one.
> 
> I see a bunch of talk too, but talk ain't going to keep a ring in one piece while it is rubbing on those transfer edges.



YUP and couple that with what is meant by number one and the denial of the fact that another brand just may share the # 1 in pro class. Ps I saw a great husky commercial this mourning about quality outdoor power equipment for pro's


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## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

Ya know I was going to post a video of steals flagship 441 agaisn't the 576xp. But after this thread I didn't want to give the steal boys a heartattack. They have enough to deal with.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Ya know I was going to post a video of steals flagship 441 agaisn't the 576xp. But after this thread I didn't want to give the steal boys a heartattack. They have enough to deal with.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Yup poor ole 2k and tom t needs a break, them boyz look like ostriches with their heads buried right now; hope their getting enough oxygen down there:hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Ya know I was going to post a video of steals flagship 441 agaisn't the 576xp. But after this thread I didn't want to give the steal boys a heartattack. They have enough to deal with.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Post it up man. Facts are facts. That's what competition is all about. It's good for the consumer.


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## belgian (May 10, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup poor ole 2k and tom t needs a break, them boyz look like ostriches with their heads buried right now; hope their getting enough oxygen down there:hmm3grin2orange:



It 'll take more than one ugly cylinder to get them stihl boys down..., hot dayuuummmm.

I am just waiting for the Westcoast Leopard to show up to bite you husky folks in the @ss....:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

belgian said:


> I am just waiting for the Westcoast Leopard to show up to bite you husky folks in the @ss....:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Looks like he retired at 25,000 posts more than a week ago now.


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## timberwolf (May 10, 2009)

I'v seen a couple more new stihl cylinders since the first 460 and 660 that first caught my eye.

This is not just a case of a couple bad jugs on one saw model, these are different molds, cooling fins are in different places, port timing is different, plating is not the same, even the metal used in the casting is clearly not the same.

Perfomance wise too these new jugs don't stack up against the older jugs, and if you want to talk about porting that plating not running to the top of the cylinder limits potential compression gains substantially.

The BB jugs are suddenly looking likea real good replacment option if stihl starts selling these new jugs at the parts counter too.


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## belgian (May 10, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Looks like he retired at 25,000 posts more than a week ago now.




I know, but I miss him already...


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

Erick said:


> *Let's find out*.
> (Just for the sake of breaking a thousand.)
> 
> I recently bought a new piston and cylinder kit for my 084, and was a bit surprised and disappointed with the quality of the new piston.
> ...



Oh, but your wrong, it would run. ha ha ha ha ha LOL LOL. what a joke.

I wouldn't like that piston either. Honestly that looks like a Golf piston that I've worked a few over.



timberwolf said:


> I'v seen a couple more new stihl cylinders since the first 460 and 660 that first caught my eye.
> 
> This is not just a case of a couple bad jugs on one saw model, these are different molds, cooling fins are in different places, port timing is different, plating is not the same, even the metal used in the casting is clearly not the same.
> 
> ...


 
UH OH. now you heard it from the mighty T-Wolf.



Honestly, If I knew that cylinder looked like that in my saw, every time I ran it I would be worried about it locking up, with the lack of a bevel on those ports.


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

timberwolf said:


> I'v seen a couple more new stihl cylinders since the first 460 and 660 that first caught my eye.
> 
> This is not just a case of a couple bad jugs on one saw model, these are different molds, cooling fins are in different places, port timing is different, plating is not the same, even the metal used in the casting is clearly not the same.
> 
> ...



Thanks for stopping in Brian


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> I see a bunch of talk too, but talk ain't going to keep a ring in one piece while it is rubbing on those transfer edges.



I guess we will never know.


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## RandyMac (May 10, 2009)

The way of all things, the rise, the peak, the decline, then Imported knock-offs.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Ya know I was going to post a video of steals flagship 441 agaisn't the 576xp. But after this thread I didn't want to give the steal boys a heartattack. They have enough to deal with.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Post it up d-bag. I'd love to see a modded saw against a stocker.:monkey: Truth is I like the 576 and have thought about getting one.


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Post it up d-bag. I'd love to see a modded saw against a stocker.:monkey: Truth is I like the 576 and have thought about getting one.



Who said anything about modded vs stocker??


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Who said anything about modded vs stocker??



He just had a 576 modded, which one do you think he is going to put in the video? The faster one or slower?:monkey:


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> He just had a 576 modded, which one do you think he is going to put in the video? The faster one or slower?:monkey:



Booker is a stand up guy. Hes not like you guys that turn the switch off on a 372 and pretend it wont start. He also has a stock one too.


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## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> He just had a 576 modded, which one do you think he is going to put in the video? The faster one or slower?:monkey:



Now that is a steal trick not mine. I will say though bias or not bias Get a 576xp, *Husky got it right.* Seriously


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Booker is a stand up guy. Hes not like you guys that turn the switch off on a 372 and pretend it wont start. He also has a stock one too.



LOL, what a load of crap. Booker would rig a video just like anyone else, not that I expect him too. He has made some pretty good vids so far but saying we are not "stand up" guys is a load. 

Yup, he has a stocker, yup I know it's a hair faster than a 441. Now the question is do I care?


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Now that is a steal trick not mine. I will say though bias or not bias Get a 576xp, *Husky got it right.* Seriously



Yup, so far they are looking like it's finally right. I'll give them some more time though, ya'll would hate for me to get a lemon.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

timberwolf said:


> I'v seen a couple more new stihl cylinders since the first 460 and 660 that first caught my eye.
> 
> This is not just a case of a couple bad jugs on one saw model, these are different molds, cooling fins are in different places, port timing is different, plating is not the same, even the metal used in the casting is clearly not the same.
> 
> ...



Great Post. Now all our questions are answered!!!! So do you just go ahead and port them Brain? Still pulling usual % gains?

Guess if you don't like this cylinder Brad, you are done porting newer stihl saws!

I have a 036 pro here right now with a stihl cylinder. Looks really good, so stihl must have the capabilities to make a good one on their own.


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, so far they are looking like it's finally right. I'll give them some more time though, ya'll would hate for me to get a lemon.:hmm3grin2orange:



Its not that it is finally right. Its is extremly right. The 441 is a good saw but, all around it needs some revamping.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> You obviously haven't read the whole thread. Several builders have reported this lack of quality in several different models of Pro Stihl saws? They were all Stihl castings, not Mahle. Try as you might, the facts are not that this is an anomoly.
> 
> Who ever made the post obout a mechanic swapping out a crappy aftermarket cylinder and charging the customer for a Mahle cylinder hit the nail on the head. There is absolutely no difference in what Stihl is doing here.
> 
> ...



Come on Brad, did you take that 180 of yours back to the dealer and demand a new piston and rod? Did you write Stihl and complain about the quality going downhill? Did you stop buying stihl products because of that? Don't give me the excuse that it was a homeowner saw, according to everyone here, it is a stihl and you paid a premium price for it, so it must be superior to other companies. If you didn't do all of that, and stihl buy stihl stuff, I might have to call you a hypocrite. If you really don't like the quality, don't work on them or buy any of their stuff. That is the only real way to voice you dissatisfaction.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Its not that it is finally right. Its is extremly right. The 441 is a good saw but, all around it needs some revamping.



Well I was told the 372/2171 would be the end all of 70cc saws, they are good but "extremley right" is not what I thought of those. I'm waiting to see how my 441 runs after being ported, then I will decide.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Its not that it is finally right. Its is extremly right. The 441 is a good saw but, all around it needs some revamping.



If I was buying a new 441 or 756, it is gonna be the 756. An awesome saw stock, besides that cheap chain adjuster in the bar cover. That is poulan #### right there.

If I was gonna buy any 70cc saw, it would be either a shinny 757, dolmar 7900, a 460 or a 756. If I could cheat a little, I would go with the Solo 681.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

belgian said:


> It 'll take more than one ugly cylinder to get them stihl boys down..., hot dayuuummmm.
> 
> I am just waiting for the Westcoast Leopard to show up to bite you husky folks in the @ss....:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Yup, he would kick some teeth in for sure. Most of these husky guys only have 6-7 teeth in their mouth anyway though.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> If I was buying a new 441 or 756, it is gonna be the 756. An awesome saw stock, besides that cheap chain adjuster in the bar cover. That is poulan #### right there.
> 
> If I was gonna buy any 70cc saw, it would be either a shinny 757, dolmar 7900, a 460 or a 756. If I could cheat a little, I would go with the Solo 681.



Are you talking 576 when you say 756?


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, he would kick some teeth in for sure. Most of these husky guys only have 6-7 teeth in their mouth anyway though.:biggrinbounce2:



LMAO have you guys seen the westcoast Kitten. I don't think he would be kicking many teeth in.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Are you talking 576 when you say 756?



Ya, my bad. You know what I mean.


----------



## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> LOL, what a load of crap. Booker would rig a video just like anyone else, not that I expect him too. He has made some pretty good vids so far but saying we are not "stand up" guys is a load.
> 
> Yup, he has a stocker, yup I know it's a hair faster than a 441. Now the question is do I care?



Whoh dude!!! No need to get so defensive. And for the record, I never said you guys wern't stand up guys. I'm sure you and I would get along great in real life. Cause this ain't all that real if ya know what I mean. I know you don't care that a 576 is faster, but you sure would if a 441 was faster then a 576. LOL dude, take it easy!!


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

OK...this is the same feeling I had watching Randal "Tex" Cobb fight Larry Homes in 1982. It was funny for the first few rounds, then it just got sadder and sadder. By the end it was an absolute tragedy that drove Howard Cosell from the sport of boxing.

Will someone please throw in the towel for the Stihl sycophants?


Stay down!


----------



## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> OK...this is the same feeling I had watching Randal "Tex" Cobb fight Larry Homes in 1982. It was funny for the first few rounds, then it just got sadder and sadder. By the end it was an absolute tragedy that drove Howard Cosell from the sport of boxing.
> 
> Will someone please throw in the towel for the Stihl sycophants?
> 
> ...



Ya, its kinda like when you were a kid and argued about who's dad could beat up who's dad!!!


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

*Well well well well*

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Piston Systems Cylinder Components Valve Train Systems Air Management Systems Liquid Management Systems Aftermarket Motorsports Small Engine Components Large Engine Components Engineering Services Industrial Filtration 

The MAHLE Group is one of the 30 largest companies in the automotive supply industry worldwide. More
>> please select> Piston Systems > Cylinder Components > Valve Train Systems > Air Management Systems > Liquid Management Systems > Aftermarket > Motorsports > Engineering Services

In addition to the automotive industry, MAHLE also supplies the small and large engine areas as well as the market for industrial filtration More
>> please select> Small Engine Components > Large Engine Components > Industrial Filtration


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Jobs and career

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 Reliability from the chain saw to the snowmobile 
MAHLE Small Engine Components are worldrenowned among professionals for their reliability and durability. Chain saws are often used in remote regions and have to work flawlessly under the toughest conditions. Finnish lumberjacks, for example, bury their saws in the snow in order to avoid having to transport them to the job site every day.

Our filters and our piston and cylinder assemblies for small engines can cope easily with even this sort of challenge, because they are specially tuned to the requirements of our customers. They are produced in Germany, Austria, USA, *Brazil, and China.* 

In Europe, we are the largest supplier in our segment to manufacturers of professional hand-held power equipment such as chain saws, cutters, grinders, blowers, plant spray equipment, and lawnmowers. Our engine components also enable motorcycles and leisure vehicles, such as snowmobiles, personal watercrafts, and all-terrain vehicles, to work reliably. In the development of these high-performance, low-emission engines, we support our customers right from the start with modern development tools."



Well well well, seems the almighty Mahle has gone China and Brazil. What does this mean boys, Mahle is in Dolmar, Stihl and Husky. So we won't find ChiCom garbage in other brands, they only use the Mahle in their brands so I hear, well kizz my hiny. The cylinder in question is a Malhe made in Brazil for Stihl, my my my my. How could the mighty Mahle make a azz out of all these saw builders in the world, all 20 of them. Who's quality was it again thats going down???????

Looks like this thread will surely win the BS Thread of the year now. Sorry Brad but Mahle has made a complete azz out of you and everyone else that was piling on. Are you going to blame Stihl for Mahle going to China and Brazil? Do your homework before you cast those stones. See ya in the funny paper...


----------



## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> OK...this is the same feeling I had watching Randal "Tex" Cobb fight Larry Homes in 1982. It was funny for the first few rounds, then it just got sadder and sadder. By the end it was an absolute tragedy that drove Howard Cosell from the sport of boxing.
> 
> Will someone please throw in the towel for the Stihl sycophants?
> 
> ...



Hahaha......that reminds me of Evander Holyfield, who is still fighting and getting his bell wrung.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> MAHLE Group Products Purchasing Jobs & Career News and Press Aftermarket MAHLE Powertrain Industrial Filtration
> 
> Piston Systems Cylinder Components Valve Train Systems Air Management Systems Liquid Management Systems Aftermarket Motorsports Small Engine Components Large Engine Components Engineering Services Industrial Filtration
> 
> ...



Well, this thread is gonna go over 1k and beyond. Thanks THALL for the info......too bad it is bad news for all.


----------



## Wild Knight (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> Will someone please throw in the towel for the Stihl sycophants?



Sycophants... well don't you just like to cast stones.


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> MAHLE Group Products Purchasing Jobs & Career News and Press Aftermarket MAHLE Powertrain Industrial Filtration
> 
> Piston Systems Cylinder Components Valve Train Systems Air Management Systems Liquid Management Systems Aftermarket Motorsports Small Engine Components Large Engine Components Engineering Services Industrial Filtration
> 
> ...



How do you know the cylinder in question is a malhe


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Well, this thread is gonna go over 1k and beyond. Thanks THALL for the info......too bad it is bad news for all.



Well maybe now all the rivers will quit filling with tears and BS. I'll tell ya one thing, if I was the author of this thread I would go crawl under a rock for few days, those that piled on, remember all BS comes full circle sooner or later. I'm a forgiving soul though, Brad and eveyone else, the beer is on me but its brewed in China,


----------



## epicklein22 (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well maybe now all the rivers will quit filling with tears and BS. I'll tell ya one thing, if I was the author of this thread I would go crawl under a rock for few days, those that piled on, remember all BS comes full circle sooner or later. I'm a forgiving soul though, Brad and eveyone else, the beer is on me but its brewed in China,



1K posts!!!

I wish people didn't give Eddie Anderson crap and run him off. He would be a wealth of knowledge here. Sorely missed by me and many others.


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

How can you explain erick pics also. You 24 hours of research doesn't seem to hold up to well. When the crap piston cylinders are coming from steal saws.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> How do you know the cylinder in question is a malhe



Goober give it up. Better yet you prove it isn't, seems Mahle has no problem admitting they are in Brazil and China doing what, producing cylinders and pistons,LOLOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> How can you explain erick pics also. You 24 hours of research doesn't seem to hold up to well. When the crap piston cylinders are coming from steal saws.



I don't have to explain anything Booker, Mahle already did..


----------



## Erick (May 10, 2009)

Tommie, ya forgot Turkey. 

Of course Mahle is a global company on the rise.... they haven't laied off any workers and In the past ten years alone, increased their sales from EUR 1.9 billion to EUR 5.1 billion, and the number of employees worldwide grew from 21,000 to 48,000.

How could they possibly have made a bad piston/cylinder???? :dunno:


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

Wild Knight said:


> Sycophants... well don't you just like to cast stones.



You'd think I'd know better, what with my glass house and all.


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Goober give it up. Better yet you prove it isn't, seems Mahle has no problem admitting they are in Brazil and China doing what, producing cylinders and pistons,LOLOL



seems sthil has no problem putting crap in the saws also. You should go back and read timberwolf, tslinger, brad, erick and on and and. Your the one that said it was mahle The proof needs to be with you.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> 1K posts!!!
> 
> I wish people didn't give Eddie Anderson crap and run him off. He would be a wealth of knowledge here. Sorely missed by me and many others.




Eddie has entirely too much class and knowledge to hang around a bunch of bullschit like this thread. Seems Lake got sick of it too. Me, I'm the guy who likes to roll in the dirt with the bozo's of the chainsaw world,LOLOLOL


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I don't have to explain anything Booker, Mahle already did..



Soooo....let me get this straight. When it's in a Stihl saw it's an unlucky anomaly, but because it says Stihl on it and not Mahle, but Mahle makes cylinders in Brazil, all other saws then have crappy cylinders (which, don't forget, could be awesome cylinders if they run)?

Can you say exponential _non sequiter_?


----------



## Erick (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Goober give it up. Better yet you prove it isn't, seems Mahle has no problem admitting they are in Brazil and China doing what, producing cylinders and pistons,LOLOL



How do you know they are manufacturing pistons and cylinders in Brazil or China???


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> seems sthil has no problem putting crap in the saws also. You should go back and read timberwolf, tslinger, brad, and on and and. Your the one that said it was mahle The proof needs to be with you.



Booker your a big ole boy, I've seen your pics, why are you now acting like a pansy, face it ole boy, your clock has been cleaned. My pleasure too,LOL


----------



## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

Quality products can come out of China, Brazil. Just about Quality control.


----------



## Erick (May 10, 2009)

Wild, I see ya down there check your PM's in a minute.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> Soooo....let me get this straight. When it's in a Stihl saw it's an unlucky anomaly, but because it says Stihl on it and not Mahle, but Mahle makes cylinders in Brazil, all other saws then have crappy cylinders (which, don't forget, could be awesome cylinders if they run)?
> 
> Can you say exponential _non sequiter_?



Look at the name of this thread, nuff said. I wanted that crappy looking cylinder, remember?? I bet it would had run just fine..


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Look at the name of this thread, nuff said. I wanted that crappy looking cylinder, remember?? I bet it would had run just fine..



Yup...Brad found that cylinder in a Stihl, and you found a website saying Mahle makes stuff in Brazil.

I'm having trouble following your logic, so help me out. Does that mean that all chainsaws have cylinders made in Brazil (even though all Stihl saws don't have that cylinder?


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Booker your a big ole boy, I've seen your pics, why are you now acting like a pansy, face it ole boy, your clock had been cleaned. My pleasure too,LOL



Hey Ol boy I know you have never been able to beat the dog. If ya want me to leave ya alone just say so.


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Look at the name of this thread, nuff said. I wanted that crappy looking cylinder, remember?? I bet it would had run just fine..



skip to the lou my darling skip to the lou my darling.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Hey Ol boy I know you have never been able to beat the dog. If ya want me to leave ya alone just say so.



Leave, hell no. The dog never leaves the fight, I didn't mean it that way ya knucklehead. I meant admit it, Mahle is putting out ChiCom and you nor me got no idea where they are landing up, thats all. Leave, grrr, I'll chase you to you can't run nomore,LOLOL


----------



## indiansprings (May 10, 2009)

I have said this once and will say it again, the cylinder looks like hell and no I hope I don't have one that looks like it in one of my saws, but I won't know unless one fails.

What got me was is the way the post was titled and the absurd allegations that have been made.

Nothing personal, I don't know the guy from Adam, but what amazes me is that a guy who was not too long ago asking opinions on his cylinder work, operating with files and a dremel tool is some how the almighty know all, saw guru of the ages, no degree in mechanical engineering, no flow testing of cylinders,etc. He probably does good work, I have know good auto mechanics who were home schooled, but to send a saw to anyone, to have it modified to perform at rpm levels far above what the factory specifies and for what a 2-3 second gain in a piece of wood, hell just buy a bigger saw and have a warranty instead of not knowing exactly what you getting.

I imagine both the guys at Stihl and Husky avoid this type of site just for that reason, their best engineer with years of expierence just couldn't hold a candle to some of the "God's" on this site, both Stihlheads and Huskyheads.
They've played with a few saws and are BY GOD the authority because they have opened a jug up and cranked it up to 15,000 rpms plus and it cuts a ten inch round in the back yard in 2.1 seconds, they don't have to worry about the liability issues, longevity issues or the EPA, good techs like Lakeside and yes even Thall don't mess around with mods, except maybe on their own saw, because they would be breaking the law by doing so, Lakeside stated that in more than one thread. I faced the same crap when working as a executive for a major firearms company, their are more arm chair experts on firearms than on chain saws. Let a gun writer (whore) who was given something for free and suddenly in the next magazine it was the best, don't give them the gun to keep for free it was marginal.

All companies are have new issues that are affecting the bottom line, compliance with the EPA, rising legal cost, smaller markets and yes I imagine we have seen the golden age of saws and regardless of brand we will never see the quality we have enjoyed.

But for one I will take the opinions of experienced saw techs over a enthusiast any day. If the thread was approached in a toned down professional manner, rather than the blatant screaming, know all, beat on the chest, puff up my reputation manner it was, there wouldn't be the 1000 post or all the ruffled feathers. It reminded me of a kid screaming and kicking for attention. He doesn't need to do that he obviously has a following, and probably is a great guy and a good saw mechanic, it was the message or messenger, it was the delivery that was wrong. 

That's the real issue IMHO, which means nothing, I'm just a retired guy who cuts a little wood on the farm and helps my teenager cut and sell wood for his gas money and insurance.


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Leave, hell no. The dog never leaves the fight, I didn't mean it that way ya knucklehead. I meant admit it, Mahle is putting out ChiCom and you nor me got no idea where they are landing up, thats all. Leave, grrr, I'll chase you to you can't run nomore,LOLOL



And I didn't take it that way. *FISH ON LMAO*


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> Yup...Brad found that cylinder in a Stihl, and you found a website saying Mahle makes stuff in Brazil.
> 
> I'm having trouble following your logic, so help me out. Does that mean that all chainsaws have cylinders made in Brazil (even though all Stihl saws don't have that cylinder?



Exactly. Where ever the hell they usually get their parts from can't keep up they get them from another plant but its the same maker, Mahle out of Brazil, China or the USA, who knows, me I don't care long as it runs.

BTW this thing about Brazil. Was alot of talk about Brazil. The 038Mag was made in Brazil, the TS760, the TS510. Find me better made saws, there aren't any outhere today...


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

Well got to go to my grandmother in laws birthday she's 96 impressive. So Im going to let ol thall fights with ya.* Just think A wife, A mother in law and a grandmother in law in the same room. LOL*


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Whoh dude!!! No need to get so defensive. And for the record, I never said you guys wern't stand up guys. I'm sure you and I would get along great in real life. Cause this ain't all that real if ya know what I mean. I know you don't care that a 576 is faster, but you sure would if a 441 was faster then a 576. LOL dude, take it easy!!



Not getting defensive at all, that statement was posted in fun because I know we are not being serious. And yep, I'm sure we could saw together like everyone else here could.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Well got to go to my grandmother in laws birthday she's 96 impressive. So Im going to let ol thall fights with ya. Just think A wife, A mother in law and a grandmother in law in the same room. LOL



Sounds like this ain't the only place you get beat, LOL.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> And I didn't take it that way. *FISH ON LMAO*



Dayummmmmm you. BTW Booker, my 372 and 346 have Mahle cylinders, I checked them today,LOLOLOL Wonder what plant they came from,LOLOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Well got to go to my grandmother in laws birthday she's 96 impressive. So Im going to let ol thall fights with ya.* Just think A wife, A mother in law and a grandmother in law in the same room. LOL*



Enjoy your evening Booker,


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> MAHLE Group Products Purchasing Jobs & Career News and Press Aftermarket MAHLE Powertrain Industrial Filtration
> 
> Piston Systems Cylinder Components Valve Train Systems Air Management Systems Liquid Management Systems Aftermarket Motorsports Small Engine Components Large Engine Components Engineering Services Industrial Filtration
> 
> ...



That is spot on, fits the _poorly reported 359 _casts also, not only Stihl saws are getting these casts.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> I have said this once and will say it again, the cylinder looks like hell and no I hope I don't have one that looks like it in one of my saws, but I won't know unless one fails.
> 
> What got me was is the way the post was titled and the absurd allegations that have been made.
> 
> ...



Awesome post, you don't post much but when you do you nail it,


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Exactly. Where ever the hell they usually get their parts from can't keep up they get them from another plant but its the same maker, Mahle out of Brazil, China or the USA, who knows, me I don't care long as it runs.
> 
> BTW this thing about Brazil. Was alot of talk about Brazil. The 038Mag was made in Brazil, the TS760, the TS510. Find me better made saws, there aren't any outhere today...



So...if she weighs as much as a duck, she is made of wood, and will float which means...

...she's a witch!

I hope you are being this ridiculous just to be amusing, because if your mind really functions this way, I'll have to stop picking on you. It just wouldn't be fair.

Doesn't matter where it was made...it is crap. Focus man!


----------



## Jtheo (May 10, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Say what you want newbie. I have owned over 100 saws (all brands and colors) and done just about all you can do to a saw besides actually reworking the ports. I am gonna voice what I believe and have experienced. I hope you can do the same and actually uphold some integrity.



I kind of crossed over a line here on this post.

Doing it in fun, but it didn't come off right. My apology.


----------



## PA Plumber (May 10, 2009)

WWWhhhheeeeewwwwwww.
Woweeeee.
Whoaaaaa.
Etc...

As this thing is boiling out, seems the saws I have might be okay after all.

Good thing the smelter wasn't quite up to temp yet. Almost made a big ole pot of recyclables out of all the saws sitting around here.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> So...if she weighs as much as a duck, she is made of wood, and will float which means...
> 
> ...she's a witch!
> 
> ...



Ed you keep on I'm just gonna assume your related to Brad,LOLOL

Ed the big deal was quality, Stihl's quality, have they gone Chicom. Seems the mighty Mahle has gone ChiCom, the maker that has pistons and cylinders in all saws, what else needs to be said. Yes it looked crappy for the 20th time, it looked crappy so it is crappy. Is it bad, unfit to run, No, thats the point..


----------



## indiansprings (May 10, 2009)

No, THall, don't believe in saying a whole lot, rather sit back and learn on topics I far from being an expert on, but I'll call a spade a spade whether it you or anyone else. Many have tip toed around the real issue but no one had the intestinal fortitude to put it into words. Personally I think Brad is a wealth of information and have learned enormously from reading his post as well as yours, but this one wasn't handled in the right way, hell yes I be mad if I pulled off that cylinder, but would have never know unless it failed.

Did Stihl need called out, probably but not in that manner, I'd personally done some rescreach before screaming to the world Looks like Chicom garbage, 
now it looks like Husky could have the same potential issue, is there going to be the same thread calling that out in the same manner, I doubt it, when your number 1, regardless of brand, John Deere, Wal-Mart, Exxon, etc, you get blasted more than if your two or three that's just part of being successful.

Post like this one hurt the credibility of this site in my opinion. No real knowledge gained here except grown men can yell back and forth Stihl sucks, Husky rules, Husky sucks, Stihl rules on and on.

I couldn't give a rats ass which is better, I live where Stihl probably has 90% market share, has good service and support and we had great luck with them, never had a saw fail in 30 years, but we take care of them, they are a tool we depend on, we can't afford to run and buy one at a whim.
If Husky was predominant in this area with great service and support I'd probably be running Husky, we are starting to see a few mainly the big box variety, but there is no reason to switch now we're happy with what we have, I plan on buying a bigger saw for this fall either a 441 or 460 can't seem to make up my mind, I'll probably wind up flipping a quarter, either one will get the job done. Will I tear it apart to see what cylinder it has, hell no, the dealer I've been doing business with for the last 30 years will take care of me whether it fails is 30 days or 3 years because he has seen how we take care of our saws.

I'm by far from a expert but I laugh at all the by god authorities that are out there. We use our saws every week of the year and they run six and a half days a week in the fall cutting hardwood. It's a hell of a difference than throwing up a few rounds and timing the cuts, sure timing them would be fun just to see what they run, but they either do the job or they don't, if they don't meet your expectation get rid of the sob.

If the proper tact would have been used, I wouldn't be typing this post.
I'll bet whether admitted or not a lesson has been learned and by the pm's and rep I have got there has been more respect lost than gained, not whether if it was a Stihl or Husky issue but by the tone of the message.

Last I'm saying on this subject.


----------



## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> But for one I will take the opinions of experienced saw techs over a enthusiast any day.



Horse hockey.

The only 'experienced saw tech' on here, at least that I know about, who is defending stihl's practices juuuuuuust so happens to be a Stihl dealer himself.

The other wrenches, including several stihl wrenches, are none too pleased.


.


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ed you keep on I'm just gonna assume your related to Brad,LOLOL
> 
> Ed the big deal was quality, Stihl's quality, have they gone Chicom. Seems the mighty Mahle has gone ChiCom, the maker that has pistons and cylinders in all saws, what else needs to be said. Yes it looked crappy for the 20th time, it looked crappy so it is crappy. Is it bad, unfit to run, No, thats the point..



The way you go on, I'm thinking you're related to Sarah Palin. Can you see Brazil from your house?

The big deal was quality based on a cylinder in hand.

If we use your logic that because Mahle has cylinders made elsewhere they must be as bad as the turd cylinder, so all saws have that same cylinder...except for your argument that the cylinder was an anomaly, so only 1 Stihl saw had it.

Focus...the problem isn't WHERE the cylinder was made, the problem is HOW the cylinder was made.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> No, THall, don't believe in saying a whole lot, rather sit back and learn on topics I far from being an expert on, but I'll call a spade a spade whether it you or anyone else. Many have tip toed around the real issue but no one had the intestinal fortitude to put it into words. Personally I think Brad is a wealth of information and have learned enormously from reading his post as well as yours, but this one wasn't handled in the right way, hell yes I be mad if I pulled off that cylinder, but would have never know unless it failed.
> 
> Did Stihl need called out, probably but not in that manner, I'd personally done some rescreach before screaming to the world Looks like Chicom garbage,
> now it looks like Husky could have the same potential issue, is there going to be the same thread calling that out in the same manner, I doubt it, when your number 1, regardless of brand, John Deere, Wal-Mart, Exxon, etc, you get blasted more than if your two or three that's just part of being successful.
> ...



One the money once again. I'm about done with this thread as well. Not much more needs to be said cept a few things. As you saw when its Stihl being screamed at here's comes the same ole players, never fails. Thats why I think Lakeside decided to take a break, his belly probly couldn't take anymore. Eddie Anderson, one of the very best saw techs in the country got the hell out of here months ago over non-sense like this thread. Me, I'm a scrapper in fun but I must admit this one made me shake my head. If Stihl Inc was to read this thread they would have grounds to sue Brad, no joke they do. However they don't bother with non-sense like this, they build equipment, not roll in BS. 

2010 all this saw building stuff is gonna ceased when the EPA starts looking at this site and see's who breaking the laws, not paying taxes on the money switching hands. Uncle Sam always ruins what most call fun. All fun and games now but wait till next year when EPA puts the hammer down. 


Good post man, your sharp,


----------



## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike. Let me give you the correct answer as to where that cylinder come from and why. That cylinder Brad said is marked Stihl, not Mahle. He also said the piston is marked Mahle, that I would like to see when Stihl makes there own pistons at Va Beach. They do not cast cylinders there, that is outsourced to Mahle. Me being the sneak that I am I made a call today about that cylinder Brad showed. That cylinder was made in Brasil, not China.
> 
> Now the interesting part as it was told to me. The only time Stihl uses cylinders from Brasil is when Mahle can't keep up with demand. Thats why its very rare to find Stihl pro saws with Stihl branded logo cylinders on them without Mahle written on it too, they are usually all Mahle. Oddly I'm not sure if they were telling me that cylinder is made for Stihl or by Stihl but I will indeed find out.





THALL10326 said:


> The cylinder in question is a Malhe made in Brazil for Stihl, my my my my. How could the mighty Mahle make a azz out of all these saw builders in the world, all 20 of them. Who's quality was it again thats going down???????
> 
> Looks like this thread will surely win the BS Thread of the year now. Sorry Brad but Mahle has made a complete azz out of you and everyone else that was piling on. Are you going to blame Stihl for Mahle going to China and Brazil? Do your homework before you cast those stones. See ya in the funny paper...



Tommy...that's the Stanley Cup of horse hockey.

Remember the top post above? Where mahle couldn't keep up with demand? So Stihl was making their own?

Now that cylinder, which is no where marked 'Mahle,' has magically morphed into a Mahle cylinder?

Like others have correctly pointed out, you went from Step A to Step J, and you didn't hit a single gol-danmed letter in between.

Your horse hockey just got called for icing. 

Lay it down, Tommy. I hate to mix my sports analogies, but even your cut man can't stand it anymore. 

Don't answer that bell. I'm afraid it tolls for thee.


.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

So...where was that particular Cylinder made? Are there any markings to give a clue? Does someone have "inside" knowledge stating that those new MS260's have their cylinders sourced from a particular (Mahle) plant and actually know where that plant is? Is this now the norm for MS260's and thats "OK" because even though it looks like a porous mess, it ran?

My bet is Stihl still has to "check" in shipments and QA those shipments. My assumption was that that Cylinder was an anomoly...so now the "Stihl" guys are saying it isn't? And this is the New acceptable manufacturing standard for the most expensive game in town?

All the blustering and name calling still hasn't shed any new light on the subject or answer the questions that are NOW in my mind as a result of the new Stihl approach as defined by the Stihl "insiders" here...

1) Is this a bad cylinder that got thru Both Mahle's and Stihl's QA? Or is this the "new" standard for a $500 dollar saw?
2) Are the Stihl "Pro's" trying to convince me that this would be acceptable because it works...reguardless of HOW well it works relative to the typical MS260?
3) Are specific models from the major companies getting Mahle parts that are substandard because of the locations they are made? If this is the case, I want to know WHICH saw models have parts from THOSE facilities...I certainly won't spend the big bucks if cast pistons like has been posted and lousy cylinders as has been posted starting this thread are the norm for those models.

Don't even try to convince me the "extra" money is because of the "dealer" support rather than the quality of the product. If blustering with BS & generalizations and name calling vs. insight to this particular model and that particular casting in question is the "official" Stihl approach to these quality issues...we are watching yet another fine company begin the down ward spiral... just because Mahle sells to all major saw builders, that doesn't mean all major saw builders would accept that cylinder as the new quality standard. That assumption is pure BS. AND it isn't clear to me that the cylinder in question is actually a Mahle product...


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> If Stihl Inc was to read this thread they would have grounds to sue Brad, no joke they do.



In this country, anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

Stihl would be laughed out of court for that one, though. The case would be dismissed with prejudice, Brad would sue successfully for malicious prosecution, and Hans Peter Stihl would be brought to the town square and bich-slapped before God and man.

*DISMISSED!*


.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Horse hockey.
> 
> The only 'experienced saw tech' on here, at least that I know about, who is defending stihl's practices juuuuuuust so happens to be a Stihl dealer himself.
> 
> ...



Woodie does your J-red saw have a ChiCom piston and cylinder from Mahle on it?, do you know? Far as defending that cylinder for the 21st time it looked crappy, almost as bad as my 372 case which you have no problem defending, and twin-I beam, another piece of junk you seen to run from but I understand why though why still run from it, your outta there now, along with 1.6HP when its 1.6cu in. Want more, its Sunday and its Mothers day, I'm being a good boy today and guess what I'm with Indain, I got better things to do, have a good one Woodie..


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## indiansprings (May 10, 2009)

Woodie, you seem to have a comprehension problem, it seems to be a continuing pattern, where did I say in regards too this issue, nothing specific just in general. I'll say it again in a different manner, so you get my meaning.
I'll take the word of a experienced tech of any brand of saw on any subject over and enthusiast, if the tech has been at it for years and is experienced, whether its chain saws, cars, trucks, planes, trains whatever it is that needs worked on. 


All you give a damn about is bashing Stihl. The cylinder sucked, I hope Husky doesn't have the same issue but it seems possible since they use the same supplier who mfgs in Brazil and China.

I couldn't give a damn about which brand of saw is in my hands as long as it is dependable and does what I want it to. Hell send me a 372 and we'll run the crap out of it with no prejudice, probably be just as good or better than anything I've got. Send me a Dolmar same thing. 

You just stay on the band wagon get your saw modded run the thing at 15k and we'll see how long it last using it like we do. It will fail sooner that that sorry cylinder that was used as an example, and thats just my opinion which isn't worth a damn as I'm not a saw guru, I just put good mix in them, bar oil, use sharp chains and maintain them at the end of every day I use them,
they don't sit on a shelf to look pretty nor I use them to cut cookies and 
any of the major brands, preferably of European origin work for me.

You guys need to grow up and get over the Stihl vs Husky issue, your not in High School any more, it's just like Ford and Chevy after you mature you couldn't give a crap less, long as it gets you there.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

Probably a good idea to go play in the box your kids came from on mothers day....I still would rather think that cylinder is the exception instead of the rule.


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> If Stihl Inc was to read this thread they would have grounds to sue Brad, no joke they do. However they don't bother with non-sense like this, they build equipment, not roll in BS.



We've gone from sublime to ridiculous to...wait. What's more ridiculous than ridiculous?

Unless Brad actually lives in Brazil...and made the cylinder himself to bring down the evil empire! Long live the rebellion!



THALL10326 said:


> 2010 all this saw building stuff is gonna ceased when the EPA starts looking at this site and see's who breaking the laws, not paying taxes on the money switching hands.



Here's another gem. Stihl has better things to do than read a chainsaw forum, but the EPA doesn't?


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tommy...that's the Stanley Cup of horse hockey.
> 
> Remember the top post above? Where mahle couldn't keep up with demand? So Stihl was making their own?
> 
> ...



Pssssssssst Woodie, maybe, hey see that, maybe, maybe I was wrong, LOLOLOL Least I did find out where it came from along with finding out Mahle is now in China and Brazil. Spike warned you guys about that...


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## wigglesworth (May 10, 2009)

Hey I stopped reading the other day at page 36, do you think it is worth my time to go back and catch up? Did I miss anything? Any new breakthrough's?


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> Woodie, you seem to have a comprehension problem, it seems to be a continuing pattern, where did I say in regards too this issue, nothing specific just in general.



Indian, I can assure you any issue with my comprehension springs from your writing...not my reading.

As an example, can you give us all some sort of idea as to what the hell you have strung together above?


.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> Probably a good idea to go play in the box your kids came from on mothers day....I still would rather think that cylinder is the exception instead of the rule.



Probly would be more fun, I see another same ole player has arrived, you wanna use my shovel or would you rather hold the bucket,hehe


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Indian, I can assure you any issue with my comprehension springs from your writing...not my reading.
> 
> As an example, can you give us all some sort of idea as to what the hell you have strung together above?
> 
> ...



Your not in his league Woodie and he doesn't play your games, stick with me,hehe


----------



## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> Woodie, you seem to have a comprehension problem, it seems to be a continuing pattern, where did I say in regards too this issue, nothing specific just in general. I'll say it again in a different manner, so you get my meaning.
> I'll take the word of a experienced tech of any brand of saw on any subject over and enthusiast, if the tech has been at it for years and is experienced, whether its chain saws, cars, trucks, planes, trains whatever it is that needs worked on.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm tryin to understand the point here...maybe two sentences would cover it:
1) You all shut up about this bad cylinder because your not a real "Techs".
2) This is just a Husky vs. Stihl thread & therefore invalid

To me this is about manufacturing standards and the potential change in whats acceptable. Its about economic pressures driving the quality down to maintain a margin...or increase profitability of a particular product line...sort of like what happened to the "Winchester" line of products after 1964...or imagin what would happen to the Ruger line should they have porous investment castings on the model 77 receivers? (THAT would be a nasty picture)....Or better yet when Marlin bought a bunch of Niigata CNC Horizontal mills back in the 1980's to INCREASE the quality of their receivers...and DID! (A great move on their part)

When you spend the big bucks on a pro saw, you want the "good" stuff inside. A pro certainly doesn't want some rationalization as to why crappy parts are "OK".


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

wigglesworth said:


> Hey I stopped reading the other day at page 36, do you think it is worth my time to go back and catch up? Did I miss anything? Any new breakthrough's?



So far Skipper and Gilligan are still stuck on the island, no one knows what the hell indiansprings is talking about, and Timmy is trapped under the tractor again...


.


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## wigglesworth (May 10, 2009)

> So far Skipper and Gilligan are still stuck on the island, no one knows what the hell indiansprings is talking about, and Timmy is trapped under the tractor again...



oh.....same old same old huh


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## wigglesworth (May 10, 2009)

Anybody figured out which is better yet brand "A" or brand "B"?


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> We've gone from sublime to ridiculous to...wait. What's more ridiculous than ridiculous?
> 
> Unless Brad actually lives in Brazil...and made the cylinder himself to bring down the evil empire! Long live the rebellion!
> 
> ...




2010 EPA is hammering down, the dealers all know it, are you a dealer??

Naaaaaaaa Brad has nothing to worry about, that I do agree with you..


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> In this country, anyone can sue anyone else for anything.
> 
> Stihl would be laughed out of court for that one, though. The case would be dismissed with prejudice, Brad would sue successfully for malicious prosecution, and Hans Peter Stihl would be brought to the town square and bich-slapped before God and man.
> 
> ...



Dismissed my butt. No body here could win a case against Stihl, the wording and way of posting could really get him in deep doo doo. Look at the few here have thought against buying a Stihl since reading, that is grounds for "loss of sales" right there. Do you really think he could win???

Woodie, you are out of good posts, the bashing has been done and nothing else good has come from this thread. Leave while you Stihl have a few hairs left we can mop the floor with.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

wigglesworth said:


> Anybody figured out which is better yet brand "A" or brand "B"?



*Yup, Echo!!! Go Echo!!!*


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Probly would be more fun, I see another same ole player has arrived, you wanna use my shovel or would you rather hold the bucket,hehe



First..I am right about that cylinder being an "anomoly" ..Right? You must have seen more than a few..bet you haven't seen one that nasty yet..have you?


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> So far Skipper and Gilligan are still stuck on the island, no one knows what the hell indiansprings is talking about, and Timmy is trapped under the tractor again...
> 
> 
> .



LOL, Woodie show me you got a set, man up, did it say 1.6HP or 1.6cu.in, come on let me hear it. Come on, let me hear you say what it really said, come on, just say what it said, easy to type, repeat after me, 1.6cu.in, not 1.6HP like you was blow harding about as usual,LOLOL


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> LOL, Woodie show me you got a set, man up, did it say 1.6HP or 1.6cu.in, come on let me hear it. Come on, let me hear you say what it really said, come on, just say what it said, easy to type, repeat after me, 1.6cu.in, not 1.6HP like you was blow harding about as usual,LOLOL



What does this have to do with that cylinder?


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> What does this have to do with that cylinder?



What does 98% of these posts have to do with anything?


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Dismissed my butt. No body here could win a case against Stihl, the wording and way of posting could really get him in deep doo doo. Look at the few here have thought against buying a Stihl since reading, that is grounds for "loss of sales" right there. Do you really think he could win???



Focus, Gilligan.

When are you going to learn nothing comes after 'dismissed'?


.


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## Freehand (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> What does 98% of these posts have to do with anything?



Best reply in the whole darn thread


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> First..I am right about that cylinder being an "anomoly" ..Right? You must have seen more than a few..bet you haven't seen one that nasty yet..have you?




I got no clue how that thing wound up on a saw and no one else does either. If you go back earlier in the thread I did mention a Mahle that had a major flaw in it, I refused to use it. Brads cylinder for the 22nd time was crappy but unfit for use, will it perform its purpose, no one knows.


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> LOL, Woodie show me you got a set, man up, did it say 1.6HP or 1.6cu.in, come on let me hear it. Come on, let me hear you say what it really said, come on, just say what it said, easy to type, repeat after me, 1.6cu.in, not 1.6HP like you was blow harding about as usual,LOLOL



http://products.howstuffworks.com/kawasaki-kgt27a-gas-string-trimmer-review.htm

http://www.southwestfastener.com/productsKawiTurf.htm

http://www.russopowerequip.com/sales-detail.asp?VehicleID=25471


.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> What does this have to do with that cylinder?



Alot. It proves Woodie doesn't have any gonads. He blows hard but when he is proven wrong he refuses to admit it. He only shows up on Stihl threads to pile on. When Cuttinscott dings J-red with a volley Woodie is the first one to holler your just bashing, gets bent outta shape because thats his brand, other words he can dish it but he can't take it so he just won't answer when you nail him like I did over a cu in verses a hp.

Come on Woodie I'm waiting???


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> What does 98% of these posts have to do with anything?



The main points to those who are trying to learn from these posts..and this one in particular:

1)A "Pro level" Stihl saw was found with a lousy cylinder ...an anomoly probably.

2) Lots of "typical "brand bashing' nonsense commences.

3) Some Stihl types expand the issue by taking the approach that the cylinder was servicable and if you had not taken it apart, your would have never known! (If a tree falls in a forest,,,and no one is around to hear it..was there a sound?)

4) Attempt to bring it back to the base issue...lousy cylinder..is this the new norm? Are answered with BS and attempts to discredit the subject ie. make it go away or dilute it to the point of nonsence..BUT the fact still remains and very little insight has been offered as to weather or not that cylinder is the norm on the typical $500 dollar Stihl Saw.

What insight do YOU bring to the discussion? Is this the typical cylinder casting for a Stihl? Would YOU (if you were a dealer and ran into this cylinder attempt to replace it?)

Is this typical? Is this the new norm for Stihl's?
Have they ALWAYS been this way? Or is this..as I suspect until proven wrong, simply an anomaly.

One BIG message coming thru to potential buyers IS how a few particular dealers view situations such as this...

THALL could convince me its either an anomoly or the typical Cylinder...so how about it. Which is this? The new Stihl quality standard? or a QA problem/anomoly?


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> http://products.howstuffworks.com/kawasaki-kgt27a-gas-string-trimmer-review.htm
> 
> http://www.southwestfastener.com/productsKawiTurf.htm
> 
> ...



Nutless. Go to Kawi, the maker, what a puss,LOLOLOL


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Focus, Gilligan.
> 
> When are you going to learn nothing comes after 'dismissed'?
> 
> ...



Out of your 4674 posts, I have yet to see one worthy of the word dismissed as it's last. I do like to see us use you to mop the floor with, your chicken legs are like the wooden handle and your hippie hair is like a new mop head, grabbing all the poo off the bathroom floor. No wonder crap comes out of your mouth, your face is in it all day, LOLOLOL.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Alot. It proves Woodie doesn't have any gonads. He blows hard but when he is proven wrong he refuses to admit it. He only shows up on Stihl threads to pile on. When Cuttinscott dings J-red with a volley Woodie is the first one to holler your just bashing, gets bent outta shape because thats his brand, other word he can dish it but he can't take it so he just won't answer when you nail him like I did over a cu in verses a hp.
> 
> Come on Woodie I'm waiting???



I am a lot more interesting in the manufacturing standards..and I don't care about the brand. I watched many a company out source to their death and would hate to see it happen to either Stihl or Husqvarna..the only two quality BIG Bore saws builders left. It would be a shame..so please tell me it isn't so!


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## FATGUY (May 10, 2009)

10:08, 26 MEMBRES, 2 GUESTS. don't know whether I'm hoping for more or an end...... (btw I expect more from my favorite *** manufacturer)


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## spike60 (May 10, 2009)

Every good western has some kind of bar fight scene, but the fight always ends and then we get back to the story. This is like a movie where the bar fight goes on until the end of the flick, and then when the lights come on, nobody knew what the movie was about. 

Instead of being clearer, the longer this thread goes on, the more things become confusing. 

The cylinder is a Stihl not a Mahle, and was made in Brazil, and Stihl uses these cylinders when they run out of Mahles, but Mahle has a plant in Brazil, and Mahle might have made the cylinder, but if they did they didn't stamp Mahle on it, but stamped Stihl on it, and because Mahle might have made the cylinder that started all of this, then the cylinder in my 372 that says Mahle on it might have come from Brazil, or even China, and might also be a piece of junk, but as long as it runs, it doesn't matter because as long as the OEM put it in the saw, it is considered to be an OEM part regardless of what country it came from or what level of quality the starving peasents in that particular factory are capable of achieving, and nobody should throw stones at any of these tainted cylinders of dubious origin, because all of these companies have plants in China and Brazil and if nobody knows for sure whether or not Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings produced any offspring, how important is it to know who produced this cylinder. 

Have I got that right?


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

Mahle has been a supplier to the motorcycle world forever. They have always made a better forged "OEM" pistons than the typical "cast & machined" home grown variety. The reason motorcycle builder typically go to Mahle is their Forgeing and Casting technology..they know how to build a quality part and have for years. I really doubt that Cylinder was a Mahle product. Mahle has typically been proud of their stuff and label it so you know who built it.


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## PA Plumber (May 10, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Every good western has some kind of bar fight scene, but the fight always ends and then we get back to the story. This is like a movie where the bar fight goes on until the end of the flick, and then when the lights come on, nobody knew what the movie was about.
> 
> Instead of being clearer, the longer this thread goes on, the more things become confusing.
> 
> ...



Wow, is that really one sentence?

Well done!


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> I am a lot more interesting in the manufacturing standards..and I don't care about the brand. I watched many a company out source to their death and would hate to see it happen to either Stihl or Husqvarna..the only two quality BIG Bore saws builders left. It would be a shame..so please tell me it isn't so!



Weimedog its like this. Times are hard. Companies are folding up like carzy. Look at GM. I'm sure they are looking at a bleak economy like everyone else. They use parts from all over the world including Mahle, as does all saw makers. Mahle has gone to China, the big no no. If you go to the Husky website right now and look you will see they're operating capital is down 35%They're sales are down 9.% after a horrible 4th quarter in 2008. I'm sure Stihl sales are down as well compared to last year. That cylinder is a product of hard times by who, Mahle, Stihl, who knows. The naysayers are all asumming Stihl is going by the way side because a hand full of "usable" cylinders don't meet their visual standards, thats what this whole thread is all about, look at the title. Most just found out Mahle is now in China, oh my will they be able to sleep now, I will with ease. I wish they had been with me yesterday running my azz off selling Stihl. I could have used some help..


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Alot. It proves Woodie doesn't have any gonads. He blows hard but when he is proven wrong he refuses to admit it. He only shows up on Stihl threads to pile on. When Cuttinscott dings J-red with a volley Woodie is the first one to holler your just bashing, gets bent outta shape because thats his brand, other words he can dish it but he can't take it so he just won't answer when you nail him like I did over a cu in verses a hp.
> 
> Come on Woodie I'm waiting???




http://www.heinold-feller.com/residential-YardTools.htm

http://www.recworldlv.com/trimmer.htm

http://www.iwantagenerator.com/p_kawasaki_turf.htm

http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1076768&postcount=11


.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> What insight do YOU bring to the discussion? Is this the typical cylinder casting for a Stihl? Would YOU (if you were a dealer and ran into this cylinder attempt to replace it?)
> 
> Is this typical? Is this the new norm for Stihl's?
> Have they ALWAYS been this way? Or is this..as I suspect until proven wrong, simply an anomaly.
> ...



Well the insight I bring is many in this thread are here to bash, fine with me, I can hang. I have not seen as many cylinders as some of these fellers but the ones I have seen are good. I got 2 peices of *** made in 2008, a 211 and FS100RX. These bad boys run and they run great. Will I pull their jugs and take a look? Nope, no reason to. If they seize or their perfromance goes down due to a poor cast, I'll take it up with Stihl.

If I were a dealer and someone like a good customer brought me this cylinder off the saw and said, "Look at those ports and that chip". I'd call Stihl about the chip because it might be a issue down the road and let them make the call. If this feller was a d-bag, I'd tell him to put it back on the saw and come back when it's quits. Then say your warranty is out due to me not knowing if it came apart right or went back together right either. Then sell him another saw, LOLOL.

As far as if this is a QC with Stihl, I don't know. If this is their parts for future saws, I might consider looking at other brands if this causes failure and poor performance.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Every good western has some kind of bar fight scene, but the fight always ends and then we get back to the story. This is like a movie where the bar fight goes on until the end of the flick, and then when the lights come on, nobody knew what the movie was about.
> 
> Instead of being clearer, the longer this thread goes on, the more things become confusing.
> 
> ...



LOLOL, sumthing like that Spike. You made the warning way back in this thread, I commend you. Chicom seems to be the big dirty word, looks like everyone has some dirt in the kitchen floor now, even Mahle. 

Spike that 346 , what plant did my cylinder come out of,LOLOLOLOL


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Out of your 4674 posts, I have yet to see one worthy of the word dismissed as it's last. I do like to see us use you to mop the floor with, your chicken legs are like the wooden handle and your hippie hair is like a new mop head, grabbing all the poo off the bathroom floor. No wonder crap comes out of your mouth, your face is in it all day, LOLOLOL.




Pottymouth.


.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Every good western has some kind of bar fight scene, but the fight always ends and then we get back to the story. This is like a movie where the bar fight goes on until the end of the flick, and then when the lights come on, nobody knew what the movie was about.
> 
> Instead of being clearer, the longer this thread goes on, the more things become confusing.
> 
> ...



yep....but you left out the implied threat of legal action....there was that line of crap too.

SO: My conclusions:

1) The cylinder was a bad casting that found its way thru QA to a saw and was sold to a customer who wasn't pleased with how that saw ran..sent it to a "HOP UP" artist (A true Technician) who found this lousy casting. A defective part. An anomoly.

So I want to know:

1) As a result of the responses, I want to know if this is what we are to expect when placing $500 dollars of hard earned bucks into the hands of a Stihl dealer?
2) Will Stihl dealers see this as a bad cylinder and go thru the warrentee process? Or will they attempt to baffle the customer with BS, attempt to change the subject, attempt to threaten a "technician" for finding this cylinder, and attempt finally to rationallize why this porous and improperly finished cylinder is OK.

I want to know:

So Thall...your the best bet for an honest answer. Shoot.


----------



## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> What does this have to do with that cylinder?




Tommie is trying, for the 50th time, to change the subject of this thread from Stihl's ethics and quality control to anything that will get him off the hotseat for rubbing people's noses in stihl's supposed quality.

It is not, however, working. People are seeing through it, and most are questioning why he continues to defend stihl's quality and stihl's business practices, which more and more are being found to be substandard.


.


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> LOLOL, sumthing like that Spike. You made the warning way back in this thread, I commend you. Chicom seems to be the big dirty word, looks like everyone has some dirt in the kitchen floor now, even Mahle.
> 
> Spike that 346 , what plant did my cylinder come out of,LOLOLOLOL



The difference being, however, that no one seems able to produce a lower-quality cylinder from a comparable (read: pro-grade) saw of any other manufacturer. 

And the cylinder in question does not even appear to be a Mahle.


.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> http://www.heinold-feller.com/residential-YardTools.htm
> 
> http://www.recworldlv.com/trimmer.htm
> 
> ...



Woodie from the maker, not the seller, your loving this, so am I,LOL


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## timberwolf (May 10, 2009)

> 1) The cylinder was a bad casting that found its way thru QA to a saw and was sold to a customer who wasn't pleased with how that saw ran..sent it to a "HOP UP" artist (A true Technician) who found this lousy casting. A defective part. An anomoly.



Yep an anomoly that looks just like anomolies I have seen in 3 other Stihl saw models on saws built within the last year or so.

It's not a matter of just stamping Mahle or Stihl on the jugs the trade marks are cast in, in the case of these latest offerings it however looks as if the same stihl quality is not being cast in.


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## HimWill (May 10, 2009)

Who gave this thread a 5 star rating?


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

PA Plumber said:


> Wow, is that really one sentence?
> 
> Well done!



Spike is the Charles D.ickens* of ArboristSite! 


* 2K, Charles D.ickens was an English author of the mid-19th century with a fondness for long sentences.



.


----------



## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Tommie is trying, for the 50th time, to change the subject of this thread from Stihl's ethics and quality control to anything that will get him off the hotseat for rubbing people's noses in stihl's supposed quality.
> 
> It is not, however, working. People are seeing through it, and most are questioning why he continues to defend stihl's quality and stihl's business practices, which more and more are being found to be substandard.
> 
> ...



Possibly...but this thread really has so many implications.. I wish the old battles would stop for a few minutes and let us try and get answers not with their roots in years old arguing contests but the real measure of the situation. I'm still not buying the claim Stihl is out sourcing their way into quality hell. I am waiting for an honest response relative to the frequency of these type of QA glitches and the dealers support from Stihl when they run into them. That is more important then the bickering between board members who have been bickering for years. This is a fundemental set of questions. Ones that we may be asking of Husqvarna some day as well so carefull what expectations you place on Stihl.

Was that a bad casting that snuck thru QA? Was it an Anomoly?
Does Stihl see this cylinder as a bad casting? Will they support their dealers should a change in either the manufacturing process of supplier generate warrentee issues like these? Fundemental questions that speak to the core of this business and require thoughtfull discussion vs. typical brand bashing and member "pride fights". I'm not picking sides here, I just want to know honestly from those who see this stuff every day.


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## FATGUY (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Well the insight I bring is many in this thread are here to bash, fine with me, I can hang. I have not seen as many cylinders as some of these fellers but the ones I have seen are good. I got 2 peices of *** made in 2008, a 211 and FS100RX. These bad boys run and they run great. Will I pull their jugs and take a look? Nope, no reason to. If they seize or their perfromance goes down due to a poor cast, I'll take it up with Stihl.
> 
> If I were a dealer and someone like a good customer brought me this cylinder off the saw and said, "Look at those ports and that chip". I'd call Stihl about the chip because it might be a issue down the road and let them make the call. If this feller was a d-bag, I'd tell him to put it back on the saw and come back when it's quits. Then say your warranty is out due to me not knowing if it came apart right or went back together right either. Then sell him another saw, LOLOL.
> 
> As far as if this is a QC with Stihl, I don't know. If this is their parts for future saws, I might consider looking at other brands if this causes failure and poor performance.



2k, you're a straight shooter, only those who don't know what you mean by your posts would disagree. By nature, I'm as loyal as a dog (go ahead, attack what's mine, or what I agree with, few have enjoyed that experience without wishing they hadn't bothered.) The op's ( and yeah. I'm proud he considers me a friend) wording was extreme, but so is his appreciation of quality (something he stays true to) . Those of us who truly love Stihl will condem that cylinder.


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Alot. It proves Woodie doesn't have any gonads. He blows hard but when he is proven wrong he refuses to admit it. He only shows up on Stihl threads to pile on. When Cuttinscott dings J-red with a volley Woodie is the first one to holler your just bashing, gets bent outta shape because thats his brand, other words he can dish it but he can't take it so he just won't answer when you nail him like I did over a cu in verses a hp.
> 
> Come on Woodie I'm waiting???



I'm still waiting on your to answer 1 of my questions too. You've avoided question when you don't want to answer. all it proves. Is well, nothing. Just a good old pizzn match that goes nowhere.


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Spike is the Charles ####ens* of ArboristSite!
> 
> 
> * 2K, Charles ####ens was an English author of the mid-19th century with a fondness for long sentences.
> ...



LOL, I had to think of that last name, it's edited. I don't like run on sentences either, I'm sober and my eyes were crossed after reading that.


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## Fastcast (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> just because Mahle sells to all major saw builders, that doesn't mean all major saw builders would accept that cylinder as the new quality standard. That assumption is pure BS. AND it isn't clear to me that the cylinder in question is actually a Mahle product...



BINGO.....The problem is, the old washed up _champ_ has had his bell rung so many times he's starting to act like Ali. 



edisto said:


> If we use your logic



If Tommy's logic is anywhere near as poor as his grammar, his corner should throw in the white towel soon!.....I would hate to see the old fighter lose anymore brain cells! :monkey:


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> LOL, I had to think of that last name, it's edited. I don't like run on sentences either, I'm sober and my eyes were crossed after reading that.



Tell me about it...I had to edit the danm thing three times to get his name to show up in ANY form!! 

Finally a 'white period' seemed to do the trick!


.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> yep....but you left out the implied threat of legal action....there was that line of crap too.
> 
> SO: My conclusions:
> 
> ...




You came back with exactly what I expected. No Brad has no legal thing to worry about. As loud as he screamed over that cylinder no one heard a word.
I thought the legal thing sounded as strong as the hollering over the cylinder, I liked it myself, hehe

Honest answer, you got a honest answer, if its not what you wanted to hear thats your problem. Far as the what I said about Husky go look. Its all there.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> I'm still waiting on your to answer 1 of my questions too. You've avoided question when you don't want to answer. all it proves. Is well, nothing. Just a good old pizzn match that goes nowhere.



What was the question Parris?


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> BINGO.....The problem is, the old washed up _champ_ has had his bell rung so many times he's starting to act like Ali.
> 
> 
> 
> If Tommy's logic is anywhere near as poor as his grammar, his corner should throw in the white towel soon!.....I would hate to see the old fighter lose anymore brain cells! :monkey:




Where ya been Fast, your late,haha


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## 2000ssm6 (May 10, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> 2k, you're a straight shooter, only those who don't know what you mean by your posts would disagree. By nature, I'm as loyal as a dog (go ahead, attack what's mine, or what I agree with, few have enjoyed that experience without wishing they hadn't bothered.) The op's ( and yeah. I'm proud he considers me a friend) wording was extreme, but so is his appreciation of quality (something he stays true to) . Those of us who truly love Stihl will condem that cylinder.



Yup, I try to give my input and really have never had a problem with Stihl and know they make the best, if not the best, one of the best peices of *** made. Everyone, reguardless of brand has condemed that cylinder. It will take a rep from the QC department at Stihl to settle some of these haters and even then, I think they would carry on and bark like a blue tick at the bottom of a old creepy looking oak with 10 coons in it.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I got no clue how that thing wound up on a saw and no one else does either. If you go back earlier in the thread I did mention a Mahle that had a major flaw in it, I refused to use it. Brads cylinder for the 22nd time was crappy but unfit for use, will it perform its purpose, no one knows.



So this IS an anomoly and should be treated as such. A warrentee issue that could happen to ANY brand. And a dealer who would do what it takes to rectify the situation. Thankyou THALL. So guys...that is the answer so until there is tangible evidence to the contrary...relax! The end is not near.

Back to anomoly..and I addressed superficially about Hydrogen porosity in Aluminum and the down stream implications back around posting 950 something.

Want to turn this into a thread about casting/founderies/QA and setup? because thats technically the issue here. Not some fundemental shift in Stihl's quality.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> You came back with exactly what I expected. No Brad has no legal thing to worry about. As loud as he screamed over that cylinder no one heard a word.
> I thought the legal thing sounded as strong as the hollering over the cylinder, I liked it myself, hehe
> 
> Honest answer, you got a honest answer, if its not what you wanted to hear thats your problem. Far as the what I said about Husky go look. Its all there.



Yup, you did and it took me a while to read UP (or back) to that response..I posted my reaction and no I'm not entering into the fray with a pride fight with you...I really want to know the deal here. I would hate to think Mahle is changing..their products have been in all the motorsport activities I have participated in for over 40 years....


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## Fastcast (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Where ya been Fast, your late,haha



Visiting Mom....You gentlemen did remember it was your Mother's Day, didn't ya?


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> I would hate to think Mahle is changing..their products have been in all the motorsport activities I have participated in for over 40 years....



We have no evidence WHATSOEVER that the cylinders in question have come from Mahle.

Any of them.

As a matter of fact, none of the cylinders referenced in this thread had the Mahle name cast into them anywhere. All of them said Stihl. 

And we know, from Tommy's earlier post, that Stihl is making their own cylinders in Brazil. 

I would submit that Mahle quality is not at issue anywhere in this thread.


.


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> He blows hard but when he is proven wrong he refuses to admit it.



"Hello Kettle? Yeah hi. This is Pot. I was just calling to say you're black."


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> So this IS an anomoly and should be treated as such. A warrentee issue that could happen to ANY brand. And a dealer who would do what it takes to rectify the situation. Thankyou THALL. So guys...that is the answer so until there is tangible evidence to the contrary...relax! The end is not near.
> 
> Back to anomoly..and I addressed superficially about Hydrogen porosity in Aluminum and the down stream implications back around posting 950 something.
> 
> Want to turn this into a thread about casting/founderies/QA and setup? because thats technically the issue here. Not some fundemental shift in Stihl's quality.



Wrong. It is not a warranty issue if there is no complaint about the performance of the saw. If there was a complaint about the performance of the saw and it went in for repair under the warranty timeframe and the cylinder was the pointed out as the culprit, yes it would be a warranty issue and corrected no questions asked. None of that had taken place with the saw. There may be a defect hiding in my Chevy Imapala enigine but if its running fine it can stay in there. If I take it apart on my own looking Chevy will tell me to take a hike, no warranty.

That other stuff your talking about it way over my head and most likely everyone elses, sorry Weime, I just enforce warranties, repairs and sell..


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## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> Want to turn this into a thread about casting/founderies/QA and setup? because thats technically the issue here. Not some fundemental shift in Stihl's quality.



I disagree. What the OP has said is that others have been complaining about the same type of quality in Stihl cylinder castings over the past year, and at least one of those has come on here and verified that fact.

While the quality of that cylinder is certainly at issue, I think there are broader issues that this thread is dealing with as well.


.


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> 2010 EPA is hammering down, the dealers all know it, are you a dealer??



Nope. Know how you can tell? Because I would never look at that cylinder and say "if it runs it's ok by me."


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> "Hello Kettle? Yeah hi. This is Pot. I was just calling to say you're black."



Ed I can't beleive it, I just looked over at your avatar, I shoulda known,LOL


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> I appreciate your expertise on this subject. I've worked with castings a fair amount( both machining them while in my apprenticeship, and later building molds) and while I have nowhere the qualifications that you do, it has been my experience that there is not usually just one (Being a Stihlhead, I'd love to believe that) Having not examined the cylinder myself, it is difficult to determine whether it is the casting, or the machining that has gone bad. If the casting itself is at fault, it should not have been accepted, and likely the whole lot was this way (wonder why they didn't use lost foam molding?). If it was the machining, then yeah, in the best certified companies, one can get away. Also, as it has been pointed out, this is not the only Stihl model that had similar cylinder issues. (I believe someone also mentioned problems with the 460 cylinders)



Finally got back to this point and read your response! A fast moving thread...isn't it?

Actually you are right, the setup process would produce several parts and as the process is massaged back to spec those parts evolve to (hopefully) a better quality. And then there is that point where the engineer or setup person decides the process is producing "good enough" quality (Within a spec) and starts moving those parts into the down stream manufactuing processes...its possible a few marginal ones moved thru...and the QA process down stream may have caught some and possibly more than one made it thru to production.

Tools like go/no go "thread guages" where there is a strict dimentional standard tolerance that is an absolute requirement probably aren't applied to parts like these...my bet is at some point its a visual thing.

It looks to me that the issues around the port are a result of the fixturing&finishing process not capable of dealing with the dimensional variations produced by that casting. Without knowing exactly how Stihl does this..this is pure speculation. 

(If my speculation is correct, changing suppliers and dealing with the dimensional differences would be manufacturing engineering hell...)


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

edisto said:


> Nope. Know how you can tell? Because I would never look at that cylinder and say "if it runs it's ok by me."



Aww but if you bought that saw and it ran fine would you take it apart, if yes why, I wanna hear this, lay it on me Ed..


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## spike60 (May 10, 2009)

Whether or not a cylinder was made by Mahle, and in what country, is certainly not the whole story.

Stihl doesn't use Mahle cylinders on their cutoff saws, and I think it's been that way for a long time, (Tommy, is that correct?). But Stihl cutoffs are generally thought to be the best cutoffs on the market by most people, and I would agree with that opinion, and obviously I'm from the other side of the tracks. 

As for Mahle on Huskys, I really don't think that there are very many non-XP Huskys that use Mahle cylinders. 365 does. 359 doesn't and maybe this is why I see a lot of toasted 359's. (I realize I'm giving some ammo to the Stihl guys, but as most of you know, I'm not shy about criticizing my own brand when I see a reason to) I don't really know where these non-Mahle cylinders come from. I do know that Husky does own plants that make cylinders, but I really don't know where thay are located. I wouldn't think that any of the homeowner saws have Mahle cylinders on them from either Husky or Stihl. 

I have hammered Stihl a couple of times in this thread, but I just want to clarify what my specific gripe with them is: I think that when you are talking about a pro saw, be it a 260, 460, or it could be a 346 or 372, EVERYBODY who buys one deserves to get the "good" cylinder. It's as simple as that, and I don't think that's a point that anyone can dispute. There should really only BE one cylinder. It's wrong to mix in lesser quality cylinders in order to keep the production line going, and this is what I thought was a bit of a slimey move on their part. It's unfair to the guys who end up with those saws.


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> I disagree. What the OP has said is that others have been complaining about the same type of quality in Stihl cylinder castings over the past year, and at least one of those has come on here and verified that fact.
> 
> While the quality of that cylinder is certainly at issue, I think there are broader issues that this thread is dealing with as well.
> 
> ...




You think, broader issues, such as, I gotta hear this, tell me..


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> What was the question Parris?



I guess you missed it then. Probably way back now. you answered my first one about installing a cheaper cylinder for the same price, by dancing around nicely, saying its not necessarally a cheaper cylinder, and you didn't know so couldn't answer.

I then asked if you thought it was fair to install a lower quality cylinder on some of the saws and charge the same price.


----------



## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> You think, broader issues, such as, I gotta hear this, tell me..





spike60 said:


> I think that when you are talking about a pro saw, be it a 260, 460, or it could be a 346 or 372, EVERYBODY who buys one deserves to get the "good" cylinder. It's as simple as that, and I don't think that's a point that anyone can dispute. There should really only BE one cylinder. It's wrong to mix in lesser quality cylinders in order to keep the production line going, and this is what I thought was a bit of a slimey move on their part. It's unfair to the guys who end up with those saws.





parrisw said:


> I then asked if you thought it was fair to install a lower quality cylinder on some of the saws and charge the same price.



I've stated the broader issues several times, but these two have hit the nail pretty squarely on the head.


.


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## spike60 (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Spike that 346 , what plant did my cylinder come out of,LOLOLOLOL



At this point I couldn't be sure what _planet_ it came from. LOL


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## Gologit (May 10, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Whether or not a cylinder was made by Mahle, and in what country, is certainly not the whole story.
> 
> Stihl doesn't use Mahle cylinders on their cutoff saws, and I think it's been that way for a long time, (Tommy, is that correct?). But Stihl cutoffs are generally thought to be the best cutoffs on the market by most people, and I would agree with that opinion, and obviously I'm from the other side of the tracks.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## blsnelling (May 10, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Come on Brad, did you take that 180 of yours back to the dealer and demand a new piston and rod? Did you write Stihl and complain about the quality going downhill? Did you stop buying stihl products because of that? Don't give me the excuse that it was a homeowner saw, according to everyone here, it is a stihl and you paid a premium price for it, so it must be superior to other companies. If you didn't do all of that, and stihl buy stihl stuff, I might have to call you a hypocrite. If you really don't like the quality, don't work on them or buy any of their stuff. That is the only real way to voice you dissatisfaction.



I've done exactly that. I won't own, nor will I recommend a Stihl homeowner saw. The design is inferior and there are better options on the market from competitors for similiar money.


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## edisto (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Aww but if you bought that saw and it ran fine would you take it apart, if yes why, I wanna hear this, lay it on me Ed..



Absolutely I would, and I have, and I will. Before I got here I did it with our forestry saws to clean up the ports and have a look inside. Now, thanks to Jennings and Bell, I won't stop with cleaning them.

Almost every firearm I have was well built, but not expensive because it wasn't "tuned"...they all come apart too. Just about everything I own comes apart and usually sooner rather than later. I make my own speaker cables and interconnects, and they go on before the power hits any of my AV equipment.

I look for, and appreciate quality. I make improvements that I might not even notice, but knowing they are there helps me sleep at night.

And I don't see what my avatar has with your inability to form a coherent argument. If you look at the signature you'll see a pretty Stihl too.


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Wrong. It is not a warranty issue if there is no complaint about the performance of the saw. If there was a complaint about the performance of the saw and it went in for repair under the warranty timeframe and the cylinder was the pointed out as the culprit, yes it would be a warranty issue and corrected no questions asked. None of that had taken place with the saw. There may be a defect hiding in my Chevy Imapala enigine but if its running fine it can stay in there. If I take it apart on my own looking Chevy will tell me to take a hike, no warranty.
> 
> That other stuff your talking about it way over my head and most likely everyone elses, sorry Weime, I just enforce warranties, repairs and sell..



Where are you taking this? It is Not a warrantee issue if a lousy casting produces performance issues and that is brought to the dealers attention? I don't think you are saying this....I think you are being typical Thall...taking a literal interperatation of every letter written around and about THIS particular saw. We can have a symantic war if you want...you can go argue with..you! . Its not important to me. The bit level word smithing part that is. (You confused yet?) I'm simply interested in the fundemental issue of Stihl's quality standards and the dealers responses to problem parts.

The story as I understand it around this particular saw is it DID have performance issues and was sent to a performance shop instead of a dealer to rectify the situation..I understand that, and therefore because of WHERE it went, that particular saw isn't a warrentee issue. A literal interperatation of this particular case....

The issue in my mind is generically is this a typical Stihl casting and you have said "no it isn't". Question No. 1 answered to my satisfaction. I wanted to know WHAT YOU, a Stihl dealer; would do if you saw a cylinder such as this when debugging a saw..you implied you would consider it a warrantee issue...question number two answered to my satifaction and I can go on with my life knowing Stihl is Stihl a good company...


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Whether or not a cylinder was made by Mahle, and in what country, is certainly not the whole story.
> 
> Stihl doesn't use Mahle cylinders on their cutoff saws, and I think it's been that way for a long time, (Tommy, is that correct?). But Stihl cutoffs are generally thought to be the best cutoffs on the market by most people, and I would agree with that opinion, and obviously I'm from the other side of the tracks.
> 
> ...



Good post Spike but slimy is a strong word so I will counter do you think re-labeling products is a slimy practice too? Is it not deicieving to buy something you think is a Husky when it is not??


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike but slimy is a strong word so I will counter do you think re-labeling products is a slimy practice too? Is it not deicieving to buy something you think is a Husky when it is not??



Because something another brand does isn't right doesn't make it right for Stihl to play the bait and switch game...if that is even happening!


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike but slimy is a strong word so I will counter do you think re-labeling products is a slimy practice too? Is it not deicieving to buy something you think is a Husky when it is not??



Did ya miss it again??? Or chose not to answer?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> Where are you taking this? It is Not a warrantee issue if a lousy casting produces performance issues and that is brought to the dealers attention? I don't think you are saying this....I think you are being typical Thall...taking a literal interperatation of every letter written around and about THIS particular saw. We can have a symantic war if you want...you can go argue with..you! . Its not important to me. The bit level word smithing part that is. (You confused yet?) I'm simply interested in the fundemental issue of Stihl's quality standards and the dealers responses to problem parts.
> 
> *The story as I understand it around this particular saw is it DID have performance issues and was sent to a performance shop instead of a dealer to rectify the situation..*I understand that, and therefore because of WHERE it went, that particular saw isn't a warrentee issue. A literal interperatation of this particular case....
> 
> The issue in my mind is generically is this a typical Stihl casting and you have said "no it isn't". Question No. 1 answered to my satisfaction. I wanted to know WHAT YOU, a Stihl dealer; would do if you saw a cylinder such as this when debugging a saw..you implied you would consider it a warrantee issue...question number two answered to my satifaction and I can go on with my life knowing Stihl is Stihl a good company...



The saw was taken to be modded, for profit, not to a dealer over a complaint. I'm on the phone Weiemdog, I'm one handed right now,grrr


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## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> The saw was taken to be modded, for profit, not to a dealer over a complaint. I'm n the phone Weiemdog, I'm one handed right now,grrr



But it wasn't modded yet??? So WTF? 

Why no answer question yet??? MR TWO SHOES


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## weimedog (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> The saw was taken to be modded, for profit, not to a dealer over a complaint. I'm on the phone Weiemdog, I'm one handed right now,grrr



HOW a defective part is fond shouldn't matter..I have to crash..we are in different time zones and it IS mother day...G-nite all...


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike but slimy is a strong word so I will counter do you think re-labeling products is a slimy practice too? Is it not deicieving to buy something you think is a Husky when it is not??



Thall I know you asked him but I must say my opinion. Yes I did not like the move but I also know if I buy anything in Lowes it is not going to be true. Still does not change the fact that cheap poulans were sold with husky paint. I will say I took one apart and the cylinder looked much better than the one in this post. I only buy Xp husky's so unless they start cutting corners and using cheap junk instead of quality pro parts I will remain loyal!


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## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> I guess you missed it then. Probably way back now. you answered my first one about installing a cheaper cylinder for the same price, by dancing around nicely, saying its not necessarally a cheaper cylinder, and you didn't know so couldn't answer.
> 
> I then asked if you thought it was fair to install a lower quality cylinder on some of the saws and charge the same price.



Awww ok. Fair, no. There is one price list I order by. If what comes out the box does not look good I don't use it. However Parris you do realize when companies buy from others its ususally because its cheaper to buy them than make them, you do know that don't you??


----------



## Woodie (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I'm on the phone Weiemdog, I'm one handed right now,grrr



Is that what you call it now...being 'on the phone?' 



.


----------



## edisto (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> But it wasn't modded yet??? So WTF?
> 
> Why no answer question yet??? MR TWO SHOES


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

weimedog said:


> HOW a defective part is fond shouldn't matter..I have to crash..we are in different time zones and it IS mother day...G-nite all...




Well your understanding was wrong, touchy............


----------



## bookerdog (May 10, 2009)

Hey Thall back from the mother in laws. LOL I see the boys been giving you the smack down
Tommy ol boy you look like bret farve in the last 4 games he played last year.


----------



## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I'm on the phone Weiemdog, I'm one handed right now,grrr



With who, your mommy, "mommy the guys are bugging me again"


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Is that what you call it now...being 'on the phone?'
> 
> 
> 
> .



1.6cu in or 1.6hp Woodie, from Kawa please,hehe


----------



## THALL10326 (May 10, 2009)

parrisw said:


> With who, your mommy, "mommy the guys are bugging me again"



Parrie you didn't like my answer and now mom is being brought in?? You don't wanna go there, trust me MF.. Now play nice..


----------



## parrisw (May 10, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Awww ok. Fair, no. There is one price list I order by. If what comes out the box does not look good I don't use it. However Parris you do realize when companies buy from others its ususally because its cheaper to buy them than make them, you do know that don't you??



Yes I do know that.

To me, in the end it doesn't matter to me who made it, as long as its good quality. I dislike anything that comes from China, weather its good or not. I just don't like seeing everything go overseas these days. 

I think this thread started off a little wrong. Just allot of bustin chops going around. I think I've had enough of this thread, its sucking the life outa me. I've now wasted numerous hours, at least two nights ++++. Good night all. I'm gona try to stay away. But its like a freaken train wreck.


----------



## spacemule (May 10, 2009)

Tom, you've lost your good nature on this thread. I think it's time to take a break. No need to get ugly.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Parrie you didn't like my answer and now mom is being brought in?? You don't wanna go there, trust me MF.. Now play nice..



ha ha. sorry. I was bugging you not your mommy. now don't get too testy. I was just saying your crying home to her. anyway.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Tom, you've lost your good nature on this thread. I think it's time to take a break. No need to get ugly.



:agree2:


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> 1.6cu in or 1.6hp Woodie, from Kawa please,hehe



Now how many times now is that, you've brought that up. Like a broken record player.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Tom, you've lost your good nature on this thread. I think it's time to take a break. No need to get ugly.



No I didn't Space, think Gypo, you remember that Space. Parris crossed the line, that was low, it deserved the exact repsonce I gave. No biggie but mom on mothers day, in a scrap over a cylinder, get real..


----------



## spike60 (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Good post Spike but slimy is a strong word so I will counter do you think re-labeling products is a slimy practice too? Is it not deicieving to buy something you think is a Husky when it is not??



Geez Tommy, I was going to shut this thing off and go to bed, but I can't run and hide from your question, so naturally I will respond, and more directly than you might. LOL

Yes! I do think it's a slimy thing to do, and I hate those saws and never sell them. (I assume we are talking 136/141 and related models, right?) But truthfully, Husky doesn't just re-label them. They take the basic engine, and surround it with nicer parts, but it's the old lipstick on a pig trick IMO. I freely tell people that I don't stock or sell them _because_ thay are nothing more than orange Poulans. I really don't like the way they sound; even when they are running as good as they get, they never sound better than just OK.

I feel the same way about the new 235/240. As soon as you pick one up, without even starting it, my first reaction is: They've got to be kidding. 

So, just because it's orange, doesn't mean it meets my standards, and if it doesn't, it's not welcome in my store.

What about you? There are some things at the bottom of Stihl's line up that are nothing to be proud of. Do you sell them? Do you believe that everything they make is OK as long as it has Stihl written on it?


----------



## spacemule (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No I didn't Space, think Gypo, you remember that Space. Parris crossed the line, that was low, it deserved the exact repsonce I gave. No biggie but mom on mothers day, in a scrap over a cylinder, get real..



I'm not talking about Parris Tom. I'm not talking about saws either.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> :agree2:



You agree, really?


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No I didn't Space, think Gypo, you remember that Space. Parris crossed the line, that was low, it deserved the exact repsonce I gave. No biggie but mom on mothers day, in a scrap over a cylinder, get real..



Dude, you get real, I didn't say anything untowards about your mother. In fact I didn't say anything about your mother.


----------



## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

So you take rifles apart do you, now your on a subject I will be happy to call you out on, now exactly how do you improve their performance, got a lathe or a mill in house , if not, don't even bother replying, you just take them apart mess with the trigger, stock work, if your not truing the action, barrel, squaring the lugs, lapping them in, resetting head space, installing a after market trigger, I could go on and on, it's just like pulling the cylinder to "clean up the ports a little" you really haven't done crap other than satisfy your own curiosity.

Not recommending a Stihl entry level saw because they are junk or won't stand up to the abuse of a modder, Dolmar didn't meet Brad' requirements, don't believe he tried a entry level husky, wound up with a Red Max, most *** saws aren't meant to crank 15k, metal fatigue and stress cause failure.
I remember reading before the failure the 180 was a heck of a little saw, even watched vids of it screaming as it was used trimming, then it came unwound, what a piece of crap, if it was modded would it still be running, more than likely.

People on this post like to have it two ways or whatever fits there position at the time. Maybe the moderators will cut the modding threads out since it is contributing to an illegal activity and not allow that type of sponsorship to exist, if they were stand up guys they would.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

spike60 said:


> Geez Tommy, I was going to shut this thing off and go to bed, but I can't run and hide from your question, so naturally I will respond, and more directly than you might. LOL
> 
> Yes! I do think it's a slimy thing to do, and I hate those saws and never sell them. (I assume we are talking 136/141 and related models, right?) But truthfully, Husky doesn't just re-label them. They take the basic engine, and surround it with nicer parts, but it's the old lipstick on a pig trick IMO. I freely tell people that I don't stock or sell them _because_ thay are nothing more than orange Poulans. I really don't like the way they sound; even when they are running as good as they get, they never sound better than just OK.
> 
> ...



Fair enuff Spike, just wanted to see if you was gonna be square and as always you are. I don't think much of that cylinder Brad found either but I'm not gonna worry about it. I'll sell many more 260's and never give that one a thought. I never thought much of the 009, hated the 019T and I don't like working on the 200T. Even so business is business and you know as well as me you got to have something to sell or your outta business,


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> Maybe the moderators will cut the modding threads out since it is contributing to an illegal activity and not allow that type of sponsorship to exist, *if they were stand up guys they would*.



I don't think that's going to end well for you, Indian.

.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> I'm not talking about Parris Tom. I'm not talking about saws either.



Well what are you referring to Space??


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> I don't think that's going to end well for you, Indian.
> 
> .



Banned camp?


----------



## spacemule (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well what are you referring to Space??



Good night Tom.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Banned camp?



I wonder if that chick with the flute will be there, too...

(And of course, by that I mean 2K...)

.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> I wonder if that chick with the flute will be there, too...
> 
> (And of course, by that I mean 2K...)
> 
> .



haha. And sticking that flute you know where.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Dude, you get real, I didn't say anything untowards about your mother. In fact I didn't say anything about your mother.



Parris I did get real for a second, shocked you, look at your posts since you said that. I took it wrong but I was on the phone and not paying attention, my excuse, my bad.


----------



## mowoodchopper (May 11, 2009)

Has this thing got carried away or what ? Anyone? Anyone? :monkey:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> Good night Tom.



I went and looked to see what you are referring to Space, seriously I don't know what your referring to, if you don't tell me I can't correct it or comment on it..


----------



## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

spike60 said:


> What about you? There are some things at the bottom of Stihl's line up that are nothing to be proud of. Do you sell them? Do you believe that everything they make is OK as long as it has Stihl written on it?



Ah, yes.....I believe he would.....Even those cheesy, overpriced hats.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Parris I did get real for a second, shocked you, look at your posts since you said that. I took it wrong but I was on the phone and not paying attention, my excuse, my bad.



Ya, you shocked me a little. But I'm an easy going guy. So no worries. LOL, this thread is getting outa hand. I told myself I want' going to waste another night on this crap, but here I still am.


----------



## Martinm210 (May 11, 2009)

Yeah, I still don't understand the cost of Stihl parts.

I've recently been working on rebuilding a Yamaha Banshee and I'm amazed at how much more I can get for my money. Stuff like $45 for one crank bearing and $14 for a little muffler gasket for my 066 just makes me sick. There's no reason it has to be that expensive. Then there's the whole hassle of trying to find a good dealer that's even willing to sell you parts at all.

While I've had my own share of trouble with BB kits, I'll probably continue to use them and just make sure I spend some time at least cleaning up the port edges to ensure quality is good enough. Especially after seeing pictures like these.

For the $$ OEM parts cost, they should be perfect IMHO.


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Ah, yes.....I believe he would.....Even those cheesy, overpriced hats.



Don't sellem Fast, I give them away. You though, 35.00,LOLOL


----------



## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

Sheesh this really gets me feeling bad for the stihl cheerleaders crappy cylinder for sure but what really gets me is the defending of shoddy workmanship that is the real problem. I would feel better if they would just admit they are having some trouble with castings and that someone is hard at work to change the inferior quality.


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## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Don't sellem Fast, I give them away. You though, 35.00,LOLOL



haha. I had to buy a $600 200T to get a "free" hat.


----------



## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Don't sellem Fast, I give them away. You though, 35.00,LOLOL



Thanks buddy!.....That's why I like you.....You're a stand up guy!


----------



## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> haha. I had to buy a $600 200T to get a "free" hat.




That's why I like Tommy.....He'll let ya skip the $600 saw an still buy the quality Stihl hat for only $35


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Ya, you shocked me a little. But I'm an easy going guy. So no worries. LOL, this thread is getting outa hand. I told myself I want' going to waste another night on this crap, but here I still am.



Well I seen it while I was yaking on the phone and thought whatttttttttttttttttttttt, I reacted too fast, my bad.

This thread is hardcore no question about it. I've never seen one quite like it but my gut is like concrete, gonna take a helluva lot more than a thread like this to make me back up. I do beleive Lake got tired of this non-sense and went on, that I hate. I know Eddie did. Two of the best techs in the country. Partly my fault too for digging in my heals and going toe to toe with threads like this. If this thing ever conculdes I may have to let big titles pass by from now on. Sides theres me againist you, Booker, Woodie, Fast and whoever else, almost a fair fight,LOLOLOLOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Now how many times now is that, you've brought that up. Like a broken record player.



I'm gonna bring it up untill he answers it, why, he accuses me of dancing, ha, he's Fred Astiar on that one..


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well I seen it while I was yaking on the phone and thought whatttttttttttttttttttttt, I reacted too fast, my bad.
> 
> This thread is hardcore no question about it. I've never seen one quite like it but my gut is like concrete, gonna take a helluva lot more than a thread like this to make me back up. I do beleive Lake got tired of this non-sense and went on, that I hate. I know Eddie did. Two of the best techs in the country. Partly my fault too for digging in my heals and going toe to toe with threads like this. If this thing ever conculdes I may have to let big titles pass by from now on. Sides theres me againist you, Booker, Woodie, Fast and whoever else, almost a fair fight,LOLOLOLOL



Ya, I feel a little burnt out now and then on this stuff. Its definitely sad that like is gone, if in fact that he is. Great guy.



THALL10326 said:


> I'm gonna bring it up untill he answers it, why, he accuses me of dancing, ha, he's Fred Astiar on that one..



Honestly I thought he did??? Maybe not, this dam thread moves so fast its hard to keep up.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I'm gonna bring it up untill he answers it, why, he accuses me of dancing, ha, he's Fred Astiar on that one..



LOL, Tommy two shoes.


----------



## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well I seen it while I was yaking on the phone and thought whatttttttttttttttttttttt, I reacted too fast, my bad.
> 
> This thread is hardcore no question about it. I've never seen one quite like it but my gut is like concrete, gonna take a helluva lot more than a thread like this to make me back up. I do beleive Lake got tired of this non-sense and went on, that I hate. I know Eddie did. Two of the best techs in the country. Partly my fault too for digging in my heals and going toe to toe with threads like this. If this thing ever conculdes I may have to let big titles pass by from now on. Sides theres me againist you, Booker, Woodie, Fast and whoever else, almost a fair fight,LOLOLOLOL



It's not always fun being the Champ....Good night partner!....


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> That's why I like Tommy.....He'll let ya skip the $600 saw an still buy the quality Stihl hat for only $35



ha ha. ya. not overpriced or anything.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> That's why I like Tommy.....He'll let ya skip the $600 saw an still buy the quality Stihl hat for only $35



Only the best for my buddies, hand me that 35.00 please,LOLOLOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> It's not always fun being the Champ....Good night partner!....



Niters Fast, sleep well.....


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

*Space*

Welp I went back and looked again, I still haven't found what you are referring to. I thought you was talking about my reaction to Parris. Thats all cleared up. What your referring to is not. You point it out to me and I'll make it right. Disregard what I told you, we weren't on the same page buddy, my bad,


----------



## bcorradi (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> Maybe the moderators will cut the modding threads out since it is contributing to an illegal activity and not allow that type of sponsorship to exist, if they were stand up guys they would.


I'm no lawyer so I can't tell you the legalities of it (Maybe space can help out). However, I think it should be considered by the saw builders on this site to make sure they aren't liable if someone was to get hurt with a saw they modded. I'm not sure if this would involve the customer signing some kind of contract or what it would take. 

A good friend of mine used to mod a lot of his logging customer's saws along with a bunch of other race saws for people around the US he knew personally. After talking to his lawyer and finding out the potential liability he could potentially face if someone was to get hurt running one of his saws he gave up modding other people's saws completely. 

I'm not trying to scare saw builders, but I"m just trying to put a word of caution out there. My buddy didn't feel it was worth the miniscule financial gain he attained from modding saws vs the potential of him and his wife losing a significant portion of what they worked their whole life over a frivilous lawsuit.


----------



## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

2010 all this saw building stuff is gonna ceased when the EPA starts looking at this site and see's who breaking the laws, not paying taxes on the money switching hands. Uncle Sam always ruins what most call fun. All fun and games now but wait till next year when EPA puts the hammer down. 


I say screw the EPA-some of us don't care what they think. Just another tree huggin hippie fag bunch a sissies.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> So you take rifles apart do you, now your on a subject I will be happy to call you out on, now exactly how do you improve their performance, got a lathe or a mill in house , if not, don't even bother replying, you just take them apart mess with the trigger, stock work, if your not truing the action, barrel, squaring the lugs, lapping them in, resetting head space, installing a after market trigger, I could go on and on, it's just like pulling the cylinder to "clean up the ports a little" you really haven't done crap other than satisfy your own curiosity.
> 
> Not recommending a Stihl entry level saw because they are junk or won't stand up to the abuse of a modder, Dolmar didn't meet Brad' requirements, don't believe he tried a entry level husky, wound up with a Red Max, most *** saws aren't meant to crank 15k, metal fatigue and stress cause failure.
> I remember reading before the failure the 180 was a heck of a little saw, even watched vids of it screaming as it was used trimming, then it came unwound, what a piece of crap, if it was modded would it still be running, more than likely.
> ...



Well said through out the whole post but I want to comment on the modding rifles part. This is not aimed towards you. I know some of these so called "gunsmiths" and they don't have any bussiness touching a gun. One guy likes to "tune" his rifle by getting the least amount of pull to break the action, you can bump the rifle and it goes off, LOL. People like this are just asking for a AD or death and should leave guns alone or take them to a professional. Guns are alot more dangerous than saws. Stay safe fellers!


----------



## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> I'm no lawyer so I can't tell you the legalities of it (Maybe space can help out). However, I think it should be considered by the saw builders on this site to make sure they aren't liable if someone was to get hurt with a saw they modded. I'm not sure if this would involve the customer signing some kind of contract or what it would take.
> 
> A good friend of mine used to mod a lot of his logging customer's saws along with a bunch of other race saws for people around the US he knew personally. After talking to his lawyer and finding out the potential liability he could potentially face if someone was to get hurt running one of his saws he gave up modding other people's saws completely.
> 
> I'm not trying to scare saw builders, but I"m just trying to put a word of caution out there. My buddy didn't feel it was worth the miniscule financial gain he attained from modding saws vs the potential of him and his wife losing a significant portion of what they worked their whole life over a frivilous lawsuit.



Ya know at the very least I will "Modify" my own stuff. No government agency is gonna stop redneck ingenuity. It would be like telling NASCAR to be emission compliant-yeah right.


----------



## timberwolf (May 11, 2009)

Still waiting for them to shut down F1, Nascar, motocross, dirt track racing and hundreds of forums on tweaking mopeds, 4x4s and street cars. :monkey:


----------



## bookerdog (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Well I seen it while I was yaking on the phone and thought whatttttttttttttttttttttt, I reacted too fast, my bad.
> 
> This thread is hardcore no question about it. I've never seen one quite like it but my gut is like concrete, gonna take a helluva lot more than a thread like this to make me back up. I do beleive Lake got tired of this non-sense and went on, that I hate. I know Eddie did. Two of the best techs in the country. Partly my fault too for digging in my heals and going toe to toe with threads like this. If this thing ever conculdes I may have to let big titles pass by from now on. Sides theres me againist you, *Booker,* Woodie, Fast and whoever else, almost a fair fight,LOLOLOLOL



Now Ol boy ya know after whipping up the floor with ya I have left you alone. I have seen to many old sports figuares go on to long. The guys who left the site because of threads like this you say is totally stupid if thats the reason they left. Who really cares what the cylinder looks like. If its bad its bad. If steal starts having problems they will pay the price. Sooner or later things catch up to companies.
To many people here take things to seriously. Ive had people cry to mods about some of the things Ive done. Crud ola Ive had to put warning labels on my video's LOL. I never could understand this kind of crud. If you don't like it don't buy it. If it will piss ya off don't read it. If it will piss ya don't watch it.
Now if a man can pitch it as well as take it without getting all school girl pissy great. If ya can't stay out of the fire. I love the hit and runners. Guys on this site that don't like the dog. They come into a thread take a shot then leave and wait for the next thread. Of coarse we have the Lets talk in another language people. That come into a thread and put up there cute little sayings in french, german or some other language and think its funny. 
Now tommi boy don't let alittle thread get ya all pissy. Your about the only one that can take my crud.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> So you take rifles apart do you, now your on a subject I will be happy to call you out on, now exactly how do you improve their performance, got a lathe or a mill in house , if not, don't even bother replying, you just take them apart mess with the trigger, stock work, if your not truing the action, barrel, squaring the lugs, lapping them in, resetting head space, installing a after market trigger, I could go on and on, it's just like pulling the cylinder to "clean up the ports a little" you really haven't done crap other than satisfy your own curiosity.



Nope...no lathe and no mill, so you are correct in there is a limited amount I can do, but I have had pretty good success smoothing things out, especially with caplocks and flintlocks (I did borrow a lathe to alter the touch-hole on my flintlock, and I haven't had a hangfire since).

Want to hear about a real hack job? After tuning the lock on my flintlock I "jeweled" the surface with the eraser end of a pencil dipped in honing compound.

So what exactly are you calling me out on? The question was "would you look?" The answer was yes, and it is, for the most part, to satisfy my own curiousity, and also to see what I can do with my limited resources (and total lack of talent). Did I say I made grand improvements? No. But i do know the insides of everything I own, and where I can, I make things more to my liking in terms of fit and finish.

We all have to start somewhere...and we'll keep going if we learn to ignore the crowing of people like yourself.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> I went and looked to see what you are referring to Space, seriously I don't know what your referring to, if you don't tell me I can't correct it or comment on it..



or ignore it...
or subvert it...
or divert it...
or twist it...
or spin it...
or argue against it with an unrelated point...


----------



## danrclem (May 11, 2009)

I think with the three builders finding several less than desirable cylinders in pro Stihl saws that we can say this was no accident. I'm fairly certain that the builders don't build pro Stihl saws in big numbers so this is not an astronomically small percentage of cylinders that aren't worthy of being on a pro saw.

I've been wanting to buy a 346 for a few months now. If I saw one cylinder on a 346 that looked like the OP's picture it would definitely change my mind on buying one. If I saw one isolated manufacturing defect that probably wouldn't change my mind on purchasing one.

I'm by no means bashing a Stihl because I think good healthy manufacturing competition makes for a better product being put out on the market. In that scenario we are all winners. By the same token if Stihl lets their quality go down and gets by with inferior quality the other manufacturers will probably follow.

The Stihl camp should contact Stihl and tell them that this is unacceptable in a pro saw. There could be some pro Husqvarna saws out there with bad cylinders too so the Husqvarna side shouldn't crow too loudly.


----------



## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

danrclem said:


> I think with the three builders finding several less than desirable cylinders in pro Stihl saws that we can say this was no accident. I'm fairly certain that the builders don't build pro Stihl saws in big numbers so this is not an astronomically small percentage of cylinders that aren't worthy of being on a pro saw.
> 
> I've been wanting to buy a 346 for a few months now. If I saw one cylinder on a 346 that looked like the OP's picture it would definitely change my mind on buying one. If I saw one isolated manufacturing defect that probably wouldn't change my mind on purchasing one.
> 
> ...



Good post. 

Is that cylinder a disgrace to the quality stihl usually produces? Yup, no doubt. Was this blown out of proportion? Absolutely. People started accusing anything and everything without facts. Those people may be correct in their assumptions, but they shouldn't be beating their chest liek they are some God when it comes to quality without having facts or expertise to prove it. We still don't even know who made it and how bad it ran. The original owner thought it was slow, but it is slow compared to other 50cc saws. If he had tried other 026's/260's, then he has a base for an arguement.

Like you said Dan, if people want to make sure this never happens again, they need to call stihl and protest in the form of not buying any stihl products.

You are also right about how other companies can be doing this too. Spike mentioned this also. Everyone should be on there toes when putting down money for anything.


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> ...but they shouldn't be beating their chest liek they are some God when it comes to quality without having facts or expertise to prove it.
> 
> Like you said Dan, if people want to make sure this never happens again, they need to call stihl and protest in the form of not buying any stihl products.



Whatever! You sound just like the rest of the guys on the other site. Ignore the facts and attack the person:spam::deadhorse: Besides, it doesn't take a god or an expert to see the problems with this cylinder. I really think you're better than that, Andrew. Don't disappoint me.

And like I said, I won't own a Stihl homeowner saw, and I don't have any "Stihl" cylinders on any of my saws either.


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> I've done exactly that. I won't own, nor will I recommend a Stihl homeowner saw. The design is inferior and there are better options on the market from competitors for similiar money.



So what did stihl say when you showed them this 180 stuff? I must have missed that because I don't remember reading anything on it. I thought you just found replacement parts?

Are you done buying any stihl equipment? That is the only way you can not be an enabler........

Lastly, since you wouldn't work on this cylinder because it is junk; are you done modding newer Stihl saws? You have backed yourself into a corner. Since you couldn't mod this cylinder because the quality is bad, how are you gonna be able to mod any newer stihl saws? Seems all of them are effected by this quality lapse. There is no leeway in your quality analysis. It is either good or junk. I don't think you would attach your name to 
junk. I don't think it would be fair for someone to ship a saw to you and then have you say it is junk and mail it back. That is just gonna waste people's time and money..........looks like it might be time to call it quits on modding other peoples saws.......surely you don't want to deal with crap like this.....


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Whatever! You sound just like the rest of the guys on the other site. Ignore the facts and attack the person:spam::deadhorse: Besides, it doesn't take a god or an expert to see the problems with this cylinder. I really think you're better than that, Andrew. Don't disappoint me.
> 
> And like I said, I won't own a Stihl homeowner saw, and I don't have any "Stihl" cylinders on any of my saws either.



I am just stating it like I see it Brad, the other site has nothing to do with it. I visit and post there, that is it. I don't have anything personal against you and have always called it like I see it. I defended you over there because I thought you were getting a raw deal. Don't forget that!!!


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## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Are you done buying any stihl equipment? That is the only way you can not be an enabler........
> 
> Lastly, since you wouldn't work on this cylinder because it is junk; are you done modding newer Stihl saws? You have backed yourself into a corner. Since you couldn't mod this cylinder because the quality is bad, how are you gonna be able to mod any newer stihl saws? Seems all of them are effected by this quality lapse.



Your analysis is not only seriously flawed, but I think meant to be an insult to Brad (correct me if I'm wrong).

Brad has never said all Stihl cylinders suck. Not once. You've 'given him a position' and now asked him to defend a position he's never taken.

Not fair, and very easy to see through.



.


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Whatever! You sound just like the rest of the guys on the other site. Ignore the facts and attack the person:spam::deadhorse: Besides, it doesn't take a god or an expert to see the problems with this cylinder. I really think you're better than that, Andrew. Don't disappoint me.
> 
> And like I said, I won't own a Stihl homeowner saw, and I don't have any "Stihl" cylinders on any of my saws either.



Crap happens-I'm just glad someone posted a picture of that STIHL JUNK. Quality issues happen at every manufacturing facility. When you pay considerably more for a Stihl-that is what makes this unacceptable.


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Are you done buying any stihl equipment? That is the only way you can not be an enabler........



Here's another argument that has been repeatedly used, and makes no sense whatsoever.

The same people that claim that this cylinder is an anomaly suggest that if Brad doesn't like that cylinder, he should never have anything to do with another Stihl product.

My guess is that if this crap becomes the trend, you won't have to encourage Brad or anyone else not to buy Stihl, but if it isn't a trend, then Brad (and others) will continue to buy products that demonstrate quality.


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Your analysis is not only seriously flawed, but I think meant to be an insult to Brad (correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> Brad has never said all Stihl cylinders suck. Not once. You've 'given him a position' and now asked him to defend a position he's never taken.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I have read this entire thread. First it was reported that the 260 cylinder was ChiCom garbage, that is close enough to junk....

Then it was reported that 3 other people had seen quality lapses in the 460 and 660. So it is not an anomaly when their is more than 1 saw with bad quality.

I like Brad and love to see his builds and restorations, but I am not gonna hold back what I think on a subject. I have backed Brad before and he knows it.


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> Here's another argument that has been repeatedly used, and makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> The same people that claim that this cylinder is an anomaly suggest that if Brad doesn't like that cylinder, he should never have anything to do with another Stihl product.
> 
> My guess is that if this crap becomes the trend, you won't have to encourage Brad or anyone else not to buy Stihl, but if it isn't a trend, then Brad (and others) will continue to buy products that demonstrate quality.



I never said it was an anomaly. I have known about this for a while. This topic was posted about months ago by Timberwolf. It was even linked in this thread.

Brad said that anyone that accepts this cylinder is an enabler. You can't say that stuff and not follow through.


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Brad said that anyone that accepts this cylinder is an enabler. You can't say that stuff and not follow through.



"this cylinder" does not equal "all Stihl equipment", no matter how bad your algebra is.


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## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Are you done buying any stihl equipment? That is the only way you can not be an enabler........
> 
> Lastly, since you wouldn't work on this cylinder because it is junk; are you done modding newer Stihl saws? You have backed yourself into a corner. Since you couldn't mod this cylinder because the quality is bad, how are you gonna be able to mod any newer stihl saws? Seems all of them are effected by this quality lapse.



Get real....I think he has made it perfectly clear what Stihls he will own and which ones he won't..... Because you don't like the fact he called Stihl out on crappy jugs stamped with their name and their cheesy homeowner saws, being inferior to the competition, he's suppose to quit buying all Stihl equipment and modding all saws....All this under your "no leeway analysis" of Brad's opinion?


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

Ya know has anyone pointed out the fact that the people defending Stihl are "probably" involved with the Steal corp and their kiss azz dealer network? I'm just glad that the pictures were posted for all to see. For chrysts sake! this is the internet we can say what we want!!! If ya don't like it go home! cake eaters!!!


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Good post.
> 
> Is that cylinder a disgrace to the quality stihl usually produces? Yup, no doubt. Was this blown out of proportion? Absolutely. People started accusing anything and everything without facts. Those people may be correct in their assumptions, *but they shouldn't be beating their chest liek they are some God when it comes to quality without having facts or expertise to prove it.* We still don't even know who made it and how bad it ran. The original owner thought it was slow, but it is slow compared to other 50cc saws. If he had tried other 026's/260's, then he has a base for an arguement.
> 
> ...



I am gonna agree that quote was a little over the top.....I just feel people jumped to conclusions to quick.


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> I like Brad and love to see his builds and restorations, but I am not gonna hold back what I think on a subject. I have backed Brad before and he knows it.


That's cool and I appreciate it. The feelings mutual. That's why I said what I did.



epicklein22 said:


> Brad said that anyone that accepts this cylinder is an enabler. You can't say that stuff and not follow through.



I stand by that comment, and here's what I mean. To find this cylinder on a brand new pro Stihl saw and just accept it as a fact of life, something that has to be lived with for whatever reason, is to simply Stihl to continue doing business as usual. This is especially true of dealers that come on here and defend this cylinder. Is little ole me really going to make an impact on Stihl? Of course not! But if more of the world held them to a higher standard, it would matter. A majority is made up of individuals. Brilliant ehh 



epicklein22 said:


> I am gonna agree that quote was a little over the top.....I just feel people jumped to conclusions to quick.



Yes, I came down hard in my inital post. That was no accident. I wanted this to get some attention. Had this been the first cylinder we had seen like this, no way would I have been so inflammatory. But it's not. It is Stihl that holds the coveted postion of being #1 in the world and makes sure you and I know it. The aftermarket catches tons of flack on this forum, much of it deserved. But it's the OEM Stihl product that has always been held up as the golden standard. Is this representative of your golden standard?


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## BlackCatBone (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Easy Brad, the piston stop is a certain thickness, your rope is not, it flattens under pressure, the piston stop does not. With the piston stop the rod, piston and crank are standing striaght up at its strongest point. You would have to mash the rod instead of bending to make it fail. With the rope you can't be certain exactly what position the crank, rod and piston are due to the rope flattening out. Take a piece of metal and put it on a angle and apply force it will bend. Take that same piece of metal and stand it striaght up and try to mash it striaght down, almost impossible.QUOTE]
> 
> I'm not commenting on using a rope vs. a stop, but this explanation is total fiction. A connecting rod is a two force body in the linkage. It is connected by pins that don't allow the rod to be torqued, and only transmit a force along the length of the rod. It failed by buckling.


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Get real....I think he has made it perfectly clear what Stihls he will own and which ones he won't..... Because you don't like the fact he called Stihl out on crappy jugs stamped with their name and their cheesy homeowner saws, being inferior to the competition, he's suppose to quit buying all Stihl equipment and modding all saws....All this under your "no leeway analysis" of Brad's opinion?



I have no problem with him calling them out!!! I like it and feel it is needed. What I have a problem with is how he did it and how people jumped to conclusions. Go read Brian thread on the 460 and 660. I comment on that thread too.


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

I react when I see Stihl held up as the golden standard of quality and then this kind of garbage is repeatedly found in pro saws. As you said, this has been going on for months now. It's time more people know the truth and call it what it is.


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> THALL10326 said:
> 
> 
> > Easy Brad, the piston stop is a certain thickness, your rope is not, it flattens under pressure, the piston stop does not. With the piston stop the rod, piston and crank are standing striaght up at its strongest point. You would have to mash the rod instead of bending to make it fail. With the rope you can't be certain exactly what position the crank, rod and piston are due to the rope flattening out. Take a piece of metal and put it on a angle and apply force it will bend. Take that same piece of metal and stand it striaght up and try to mash it striaght down, almost impossible.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Meadow Beaver (May 11, 2009)

Sup fellas, yeah ported out the exhaust port on that 038magII jug yesterday when I had some spare time. I couldn't quite get it shaped out in the back but I polished it purty darn good. 

I was thinkin about lowering the intake quite a bit to match it up with a 044 intake boot I have to swap, what do you fellas think about swapin it for better porting?


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> That's cool and I appreciate it. The feelings mutual. That's why I said what I did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


]

Alright, I hear your stance Brad on the stihl equipment. But to say it is ok to buy some stihl equipment and not others isn't gonna make stihl do anything about changing quality. Like you said, a majority is needed and to accomplish that, all stihl equipment must be passed on IMO.

Like I have said in this thread many times and also in Brian's thread, that is not a traditional Stihl standard. How do we get them to change back to the good ole days? Stop buying their stuff.


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## FATGUY (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> i react when i see stihl held up as *the golden standard of quality *and then this kind of garbage is repeatedly found in pro saws. As you said, this has been going on for months now. It's time more people know the truth and call it what it is.



+1


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> Like I have said in this thread many times and also in Brian's thread, that is not a traditional Stihl standard. How do we get them to change back to the good ole days? Stop buying their stuff.



If that's the solution, then I guess I'm a hypocrite I like my Stihl saws too much to pass them on. I only wish Stihl enough discomfort to make them get back to a higher standard. 

I personally don't see it that way though. If everyone suddenly stopped buying Stihl homeowner saws, Stihl wouldn't drop the brand, they'd replace those models. *But if all the pro saws start wearing these inferior cylinder, then I guess you are right.*


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> ] How do we get them to change back to the good ole days? Stop buying their stuff.



Stop buying the crap and keep buying the good stuff. That'll send a clearer message.


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> Stop buying the crap and keep buying the good stuff. That'll send a clearer message.



That is the problem, it has been proven that more than the 260 is infected with this lower quality. Read Timberwolf's 460, 660 thread. Nothing can be completely trusted, and that should go for all companies because anything is possible these days.


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> If that's the solution, then I guess I'm a hypocrite I like my Stihl saws too much to pass them on. I only wish Stihl enough discomfort to make them get back to a higher standard.
> 
> I personally don't see it that way though. If everyone suddenly stopped buying Stihl homeowner saws, Stihl wouldn't drop the brand, they'd replace those models. *But if all the pro saws start wearing these inferior cylinder, then I guess you are right.*





epicklein22 said:


> ]Like I have said in this thread many times and also in Brian's thread, that is not a traditional Stihl standard. How do we get them to change back to the good ole days? Stop buying their stuff.





edisto said:


> Stop buying the crap and keep buying the good stuff. That'll send a clearer message.



Am I allowed to argue against myself?

I will no longer own a Stihl home owner saw because of the inferior construction. But if Stihl does continue to put the inferior cylinders on their pro saws, that leaves me with no other option than to do the same with them. I don't like that! My favorite saws are Stihls. That's one reason I wrote this thread. I want to see it stopped.

I have only recently begun owning and modding Husky saws. I've been impressed. My Stihls may be a little faster, but the quality is definately there, as it has been with Stihl up until now. My point? There are options, and I will exercise those options as Andrew suggested. I would not buy a Stihl saw with a crappy cylinder like this. How would I know? I guess I'll have to take a flashlight and magnifying glass to the dealer and try to see the stampings on the cylinder, lol

If this continues, you're right Andrew. I would stop all personal support of Stihl products. Let's hope things turn around. I'm not holding my breath though.


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## Taxmantoo (May 11, 2009)

I have a (sort of) solution:

Have your salesman demonstrate how to take off the plastic and clean the cooling fins. If the cylinder is so poorly cast that the fins look like crap, don't buy that saw.


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> THALL10326 said:
> 
> 
> > Easy Brad, the piston stop is a certain thickness, your rope is not, it flattens under pressure, the piston stop does not. With the piston stop the rod, piston and crank are standing striaght up at its strongest point. You would have to mash the rod instead of bending to make it fail. With the rope you can't be certain exactly what position the crank, rod and piston are due to the rope flattening out. Take a piece of metal and put it on a angle and apply force it will bend. Take that same piece of metal and stand it striaght up and try to mash it striaght down, almost impossible.
> ...



 

That's only true when you're transferring force from the piston to the crankshaft. It couldn't possibly be true when the crankshaft is being pushed against the rod.


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## BlackCatBone (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> BlackCatBone said:
> 
> 
> > THALL10326 said:
> ...


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

taxmantoo said:


> I have a (sort of) solution:
> 
> Have your salesman demonstrate how to take off the plastic and clean the cooling fins. If the cylinder is so poorly cast that the fins look like crap, don't buy that saw.



I can see this same casting on the 260 at my dealer without even removing the shroud


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

BlackCatBone said:


> So, are agreeing with Tom, or me? I am a bit confused by your post.



C'mon...I sent you rep, used smiley faces and everything!

You are spot on, and I'm still laughing about not having seen it myself.

"You can 'nae change the laws of physics!"


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> "You can't change the laws of physics!"



Some will try, just to defend Stihl:jawdrop:


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## stipes (May 11, 2009)

I'm glad Brad posted that ,,and in my eyes he wasnt tryin to start a fight with anyone,,just to give us all a head up on what he found...I cant ever say anything bad about that but a thank you for sharing...*I'm still hoping that was a fluke,,and got by qc*.....
I always been a Stihl fan,,always will be,,,started frm the 028 super years ago...My MS440 has done well for falling and bucking,,The little ms260 I bought last year is a cherry,,and the fin casting looks nothing like that pic....
My worries is how long is that gonna last with that casting...Yes,,it might cut great now,,but down the road,,how damn long it gonna run..Do they have a set lifetime for a saw and say it's your now,,and eat it???Can you mill small logs with it and trust that it wont lock up on you??? Yes,,I mean mill with a MS260 pro....
I would love to put that jug tru a test after breakin it in and see how much crap you could put it tru...Me,,,I'd mill the hell outta it and just to see how long it would last....With the scratches on the cyl. wall after a few tanks,,,,the ni. chiped off,,and the raised sand casting knots..Me I'd say it would die pretty fast.....Thats just my thoughts on that....


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## BlackCatBone (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> C'mon...I sent you rep, used smiley faces and everything!
> 
> You are spot on, and I'm still laughing about not having seen it myself.
> 
> "You can 'nae change the laws of physics!"



Sorry Brosky! I gave up coffee, and it's hurting ma brain powa.


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## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

epicklein22 said:


> all stihl equipment must be passed on IMO.
> 
> How do we get them to change back to the good ole days? Stop buying their stuff.



I really like Lays Original potato chips but can't stand their crappy Barbecue flavor chips.....I guess with your logic, I should boycott all of their products, because a few dud spuds.


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## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> I really like Lays Original potato chips but can't stand their crappy Barbecue flavor chips.....I guess with your logic, I should boycott all of their products, because a few dud spuds.



Chip and pro saws don't mix tater tot :hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Chip and pro saws don't mix tater tot :hmm3grin2orange:



A man's got to eat to put in a good days work, don't he:greenchainsaw:


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## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

After reading all these pages i will comment, It's not just stihl that has sold out to the chinese, About all manufactures do it to stay competitive. Cheap labor and cheap production cost will allow them to stay with everyone else that goes the china way. It is sad to see but it is happening. Just about everything you pick up now says made in china. I personally would rather have the quality and pay more but that is not how most people want it. They would rather pay a cheap price for less quality.

I really don't know how the cylinder should look but even i can see the chip and casting flaws. If stihl decides to keep using those cylinders and they prove to wear out sooner than the older ones then it may come back to bite them in the arse. If the other manufactures parts are not currently made in china, give them time. Most people that buys stihl saws now don't have a clue what a good cylinder should look like and stihl is betting their reputation that they won't ever find out either. You guys know what they should look like and you will be the only voice that tells them what they have done.

The truth known, how many homeowner saws are sold compared to pro saws that are used proffesionally everyday. I would imagine the homeowners are sold quite a bit more. So it sounds like they are selling to the homeowner who could give a rats behind if the casting is flawed cause he don't know. Plus the saw may get used once a year. truly a sad time when once quality manufactures are going to cheap labor and parts. It's not just stihl, Have seen it with several products. My speeco splitter is one of them. New ones are no where near the quality of the old ones.


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

*load of crap*



stihl sawing said:


> After reading all these pages i will comment, It's not just stihl that has sold out to the chinese, About all manufactures do it to stay competitive. Cheap labor and cheap production cost will allow them to stay with everyone else that goes the china way. It is sad to see but it is happening. Just about everything you pick up now says made in china. I personally would rather have the quality and pay more but that is not how most people want it. They would rather pay a cheap price for less quality.
> 
> I really don't know how the cylinder should look but even i can see the chip and casting flaws. If stihl decides to keep using those cylinders and they prove to wear out sooner than the older ones then it may come back to bite them in the arse. If the other manufactures parts are not currently made in china, give them time. Most people that buys stihl saws now don't have a clue what a good cylinder should look like and stihl is betting their reputation that they won't ever find out either. You guys know what they should look like and you will be the only voice that tells them what they have done.
> 
> The truth known, how many homeowner saws are sold compared to pro saws that are used proffesionally everyday. I would imagine the homeowners are sold quite a bit more. So it sounds like they are selling to the homeowner who could give a rats behind if the casting is flawed cause he don't know. Plus the saw may get used once a year. truly a sad time when once quality manufactures are going to cheap labor and parts. It's not just stihl, Have seen it with several products. My speeco splitter is one of them. New ones are no where near the quality of the old ones.




Thats bull crap! I fixed a poulan that was blown. The new cylinder $40 I got from them in no way looked like that POC stihl cylinder. I disagree, I work in the auto manufacturing industry, what happened with that cylinder was known to QC. Sounds like Stihl needs a new after market supplier, maybe they should call Dolmar and ask them who used to make their 111 cylinders, or better yet maybe electrolux can make them.


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## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

fredmc said:


> Thats bull crap! I fixed a poulan that was blown. The new cylinder $40 I got from them in no way looked like that POC stihl cylinder. I disagree, I work in the auto manufacturing industry, what happened with that cylinder was known to QC. Sounds like Stihl needs a new after market supplier, maybe they should call Dolmar and ask them who used to make their 111 cylinders, or better yet maybe electrolux can make them.


Are you going to tell me that you see no auto parts that are made in china. Anybody that has been to an auto parts store and bought parts will see that most of the stuff they try to sell you is made in china. And if your fixing blown poulans............well they must be a pos from the start.


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> Are you going to tell me that you see no auto parts that are made in china. Anybody that has been to an auto parts store and bought parts will see that most of the stuff they try to sell you is made in china. And if your fixing blown poulans............well they must be a pos from the start.



We get stuff from China all the time, that isn't the point. Those cylinders should not have made it past QC. The problem is the supplier, get a better chinese supplier to make a better quality cylinder. My point is: poulan (made in china) has better quality casting and rework to the chamfering than what I saw at the beginning of this thread. Ya understand? and I make money fixing blown poulans because the local Stihl guy likes the smell of his own farts so much that he refuses to work on them.


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> Are you going to tell me that you see no auto parts that are made in china. Anybody that has been to an auto parts store and bought parts will see that most of the stuff they try to sell you is made in china. And if your fixing blown poulans............well they must be a pos from the start.



There is no reason to accept bad quality parts from China, they are capable of quality.


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## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

fredmc said:


> We get stuff from China all the time, that isn't the point. Those cylinders should not have made it past QC. The problem is the supplier, get a better chinese supplier to make a better quality cylinder. My point is: poulan (made in china) has better quality casting and rework to the chamfering than what I saw at the beginning of this thread. Ya understand? and I make money fixing blown poulans because the local Stihl guy likes the smell of his own farts so much that he refuses to work on them.


I would not argue with you on that one. Except they should still be made by the company that made the good ones. But unfortunatly that's the way companys are going.


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## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

fredmc said:


> There is no reason to accept bad quality parts from China, they are capable of quality.


Wouldn't argue with that one either except are they capable of producing quality? I have seen none.


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## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Unfortunately, you are 100% correct



Yup and now the song is cued were not gonna take it,no we ain't gonna take it I avoid all china stuff now. I bought a John Deere generator used it twice motor blown they are not wanting to cover the warranty and I don't like it but in fairness the crankcase was low on oil.
That is why they said it should have been full I looked the tech into his eyes deep and said yes it should and added new motors should not use oil. I will never buy anything and I mean anything ever again with briggs and crapon label. I asked him if I could put a honda in place
and he said no, so I may have just got screwed for 1700.00 but I may take the head and try retrofitting it to work off my tractors pto. The new b&s are pure garbage imo my honda is full used it many hours splitting wood but the b&s better check it every hour of use.


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> I would not argue with you on that one. Except they should still be made by the company that made the good ones. But unfortunatly that's the way companys are going.



In a perfect world even poulans would have Mahle cylinders. I think Stihl dropped the ball on this one thats all. Stihl claims to be the best, I imagine people will hold them to a higher standard.


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup and now the song is cued were not gonna take it,no we ain't gonna take it I avoid all china stuff now. I bought a John Deere generator used it twice motor blown they are not wanting to cover the warranty and I don't like it but in fairness the crankcase was low on oil.
> That is why they said it should have been full I looked the tech into his eyes deep and said yes it should and added new motors should not use oil. I will never buy anything and I mean anything ever again with briggs and crapon label. I asked him if I could put a honda in place
> and he said no, so I may have just got screwed for 1700.00 but I may take the head and try retrofitting it to work off my tractors pto. The new b&s are pure garbage imo my honda is full used it many hours splitting wood but the b&s better check it every hour of use.



I got a Deere mower with a kawasaki motor on it, good motor. I agree briggs sux anymore.


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Chip and pro saws don't mix tater tot :hmm3grin2orange:



Sure they do...bet you can't own just one!


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## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup and now the song is cued were not gonna take it,no we ain't gonna take it I avoid all china stuff now. I bought a John Deere generator used it twice motor blown they are not wanting to cover the warranty and I don't like it but in fairness the crankcase was low on oil.
> That is why they said it should have been full I looked the tech into his eyes deep and said yes it should and added new motors should not use oil. I will never buy anything and I mean anything ever again with briggs and crapon label. I asked him if I could put a honda in place
> and he said no, so I may have just got screwed for 1700.00 but I may take the head and try retrofitting it to work off my tractors pto. The new b&s are pure garbage imo my honda is full used it many hours splitting wood but the b&s better check it every hour of use.


Rope, If they was the one that filled the generator with oil when you bought it, they should be liable.


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## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> Rope, If they was the one that filled the generator with oil when you bought it, they should be liable.



They should be liable imo for making garbage but I am sure thats why they include the oil in a set up bag lol how convenient all I can do is; form a complaint against them with cpa and bbb.


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## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Chip and pro saws don't mix tater tot :hmm3grin2orange:



Neither does reality and truth, to a few die hard Steel heads. :bang:




blsnelling said:


> A man's got to eat to put in a good days work, don't he:greenchainsaw:



Don't forget drink!....May have to boycott a few breweries for making them Lite (homeowner) beers.


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## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

So did we force Mr. Hall into retirement?


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So did we force Mr. Hall into retirement?



I hope not, I kinda liked giving him crap.


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## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

I just hope he doesn't go postal on you guys.lol


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## bcorradi (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So did we force Mr. Hall into retirement?



I assume his paycheck is driven off the quantity of work (sales & service) he does in a day. Others on here posting messages while working, probably get paid the same, no matter how much work they accomplish during the day.


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## belgian (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So did we force Mr. Hall into retirement?



Well, for one I can't blame him. Everyone has its own limits at to the BS one can take. I don't agree with his point of view on this matter, but some posts adressed to him were below the belt...


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## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

belgian said:


> Well, for one I can't blame him. Everyone has its own limits at to the BS one can take. I don't agree with his point of view on this matter, but some posts adressed to him were below the belt...



The Champ gives back a plenty of shots himself....We're all big boys here....Except maybe me.


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## bcorradi (May 11, 2009)

If we remove all the personal attacks and heresay what credible information is left in this thread?


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

Hey Belgian, what is a good Belgian beer? Budweiser? Just joking... seriously is there a good Belgian IPA that I can get here in the States?


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## fredmc (May 11, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> If we remove all the personal attacks and heresay what credible information is left in this thread?



Prolly none! it's the nonsense that keeps it interesting. Even still I learn something new every time I log on to AS. You guys are great! thanks for puttin up with my crap.


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## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So did we force Mr. Hall into retirement?





fredmc said:


> I hope not, I kinda liked giving him crap.



HEY!! That's a LONG LINE right there, and it starts behind *ME!! *   



.


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

belgian said:


> Well, for one I can't blame him. Everyone has its own limits at to the BS one can take. I don't agree with his point of view on this matter, but some posts adressed to him were below the belt...



I think he'll survive.



THALL10326 said:


> Parris I did get real for a second, shocked you, look at your posts since you said that.





THALL10326 said:


> Nutless. Go to Kawi, the maker, what a puss,LOLOLOL





THALL10326 said:


> Alot. It proves Woodie doesn't have any gonads.





THALL10326 said:


> LOL, Woodie show me you got a set, man up, did it say 1.6HP or 1.6cu.in, come on let me hear it.





THALL10326 said:


> If Stihl Inc was to read this thread they would have grounds to sue Brad, no joke they do.





THALL10326 said:


> Goober give it up.





THALL10326 said:


> I'll tell ya one thing, if I was the author of this thread I would go crawl under a rock for few days, those that piled on, remember all BS comes full circle sooner or later.





THALL10326 said:


> Dear Woodie you prove my point 100%, you have nothing to offer, completely clueless except to come in and have fun, I'm game and now lets let the fun begin, lets see how much you can take, hows work Woodie? Do you wish you had been working at Stihl instead of Ford, lets see how much that gut of yours can take now ole boy and don't get mad because I'm having my fun just like you





THALL10326 said:


> Well Brad can you explain why the one I removed isn't bent and there is no hole in the piston. Did my assembly have better quality than yours or did I know what I was doing and you didn't. Lets cut to the chase here and stop with your non-sense about that assembly. If you didn't know how to take it apart correctly ya shoulda found out how before ruining it. To be honest it almost looks like it was done on purpose but I won't assume for I don't know.





THALL10326 said:


> Its already stopped Joat. The huge fan club is now scratching thier heads wondering man that guy can't remove a piston and he's a authority on quality, hmmmmmmmmmm, what the hell did we fall for.





THALL10326 said:


> Well Brad I'm sorry you posted those. Now we can stettle the score about Stihl and you. Seems your hell bent to find anything you can and stick it up here. Well this time you stuck up something that proves you don't know what the hell your doing. So lets talk about this rod and piston and you tell me why it doesn't look like yours, I took them out, big differance isn't it but I do it for a living, not a hobby.


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## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

IMHO opinion this post boils down to the following:

1. The cylinder is/was a pos and should have been called out as concerning.

2. The manner in which it was called out was over the top and is borderline libelous and defamatory.

3. It looks like saw mfgs cylinder source is cutting corners by mfg to a sub standard spec, proven in Stihl, potentially could be happening in Husky as they use the same source.

4.AS has become a marketing/advertising tool for saw modders that charge 200-300 to mod saws to some level of higher performance. 

5. There will always be a disagreement with some on who builds the best saw, Husky or Stihl? Most members probably could careless, they run what they can get the best deal on and get good local support.

6. There should be a concern on quality of all saws regardless of brand as long as they have shrinking margins due to legal issues, epa issues, other governmental compliance issues, and increased marketing and distribution cost.

7. There is a group on AS that enjoys roasting THall, as when your at the top you drawn more fire, just like Wally World, John Deere, Exon, etc.
Some like the fun, some are jealous of what Stihl has done over the years,
Husky could be in that position in 15-20 years or sooner.

8. Saw Modders words are the gospel to a majority. 

9. Chain saw mfgs. don't think much of the site.

10. Stihl should take a look at their mfg. process and make sure this doesn't continue as a trend IF IT DOES EFFECT PERFORMANCE OR LONGEVITY OR DURABILITY OR THE SAW. That issue hasn't been proven, yes it looks like hell and I wouldn't want it on a new saw purchase, but do know MY dealer would take care of a warranty claim or failure due to the cylinder or piston if it looked like that.

11. Emotions have run high on this issue some times over the personal edge.

12. Will it likely solve the issue, doubt it, I seriously think Stihl could care less if Brad supports the brand, I imagine they hope he will start supporting another. It's the same attitude most large companies have just not Stihl.

The only question/issue I really would like to know with 100% honesty was the post used to just call out Stihl or was there some, if just a little chest beating going on to draw attention to oneself to lend credibility to the status of a "saw builder" for self credibility gains, puffing the ego a little---not that there is anything wrong with it, if we are all honest we all do it to some degree concerning some facet of our life. 

It would be a same if anyone left the site over this post, but I wonder if Lakeside was tired of the same old B.S. brand bashing brand, guys getting two-three hundred dollars a saw to work on them for a two or three hours while they make peanuts in comparison, having to stand behind their work and deal with the public while prohibited from modding because it's against the law and more importantly losing their franchise if it become known they are doing it at corporate.

I hope all brands don't go down this road, hope Stihl takes notice, but as I said before, I think we have seen the golden age of chain saws, I for one think my old saws, even though heavier/ little slower cutting are built a lot better than even my two year 361. I think the die is cast and we'll see it get worse before it gets better. The alternative, consumers accept higher prices for quality, most won't, as an old guy I damn sure will, it's a tool an investment that I want to hand down to my kids.

Enough digression.


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## danrclem (May 11, 2009)

BlackCatBone;1538997I'm not commenting on using a rope vs. a stop said:


> I agree.
> 
> If you use a rope you're putting the piston farther toward the center of the stroke. The center of the stroke is where the piston travels the fastest through the entire stroke. If you were trying to loosen the crankshaft nut while the piston was at mid-stroke you would be applying less torque than you would if the piston was almost all the way at the top of the stroke. It seems that it would be less likely to buckle at that point rather than using a piston stop


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> 7. There is a group on AS that enjoys roasting THall, as when your at the top you drawn more fire, just like Wally World, John Deere, Exon, etc.



So let's be easy on THall for spewing a fountain of manure, but as for Brad:



indiansprings said:


> 2. The manner in which it was called out was over the top and is borderline libelous and defamatory.
> 
> 4.AS has become a marketing/advertising tool for saw modders that charge 200-300 to mod saws to some level of higher performance.
> 
> ...



Brad did nothing more than point out some obvious flaws (that obviously will affect reliability...saying the saw has to run first is a dodge, and contrary to common sense and EVERYTHING I've read on doing cylinder work), and express his disappointment.

Libelous? Slanderous? Give me a break...the post came with pictures. Was his description inaccurate? Not hardly.

So...you have no problems slinging judgments at individuals, but if someone points out problems with a company's product they are guilty of "chest beating"?

You either have unhealthy issues with saw modders in general, or Brad in particular...or you have a man-crush on THall. But lets not blow things out of proportion by accusing others of blowing things out of proportion.


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## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> So let's be easy on THall for spewing a fountain of manure, but as for Brad:
> 
> Brad did nothing more than point out some obvious flaws (that obviously will affect reliability...saying the saw has to run first is a dodge, and contrary to common sense and EVERYTHING I've read on doing cylinder work), and express his disappointment.
> 
> ...



+1 on all of the above.

And I would add, your signature (indiansprings) describes you as a 'Loyal Stihl User since 76.' So what I would like to know is this:

Would you be so quick to sling bogus accusations if it were a different brand's ox getting gored here?


.


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## weimedog (May 11, 2009)

I think the relevent facts for me are as follows:

1) The cylinder was likely a "Stihl" inhouse part manufactured in Brazil (Thall's soft speculation way back). 
2) A QA issue let it into a production cycle ending in a saw sold to a customer...found by a shop that mods saws and posted here.
3) This isn't a typical Stihl part...just because the casting is from a Stihl process instead of a Mahle process and it looks different on the outside doesn't mean all the Stihl casting look like the one posted here on the inside.
4) After all the knashing and hashing, the Stihl dealers would consider this a warrentee issue should a saw come to them with performance or reliability issues and in the process of analysis, a cylinder such as was posted at the beginning of this thread was found. (The porosity and finishing issues pictured, not the external look and feel of that casting from a different process than Malhe's
5) All manufacturing concerns are outsourcing to China... 

How does this effect me? Even though intellectually I understand these parts may perform within spec..I will look for those style castings when I buy my next saw and they will be a deal breaker, an emotional response vs. a logical one I understand.... I don't care the brand (Stihl or Husky, or Dolmar/Makita). If I see even a hint of porosity..its a deal breaker. Bet I'm not alone.

If I could have one wish relative to this topic..all the brand and person bashing needs to go away. The data here can really impact a purchase and spur solid reseach relative to the manufacturing and quality standards of specific saws that might be of interest. Why turn a serious subject into a haze with all the BS?

I think the sad part is where once I was willing to buy a name saw brands Husky, Stihl, Echo, etc off the shelf and trust it is built to the reputation. Now I won't. I will have to look it over as I would a damn used saw!


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## Tzed250 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Some will try, just to defend Stihl:jawdrop:



Make sure you understand the law.

The assumptions about the con-rod, rope, stop, bending, so on and so forth, have been wrong.

The relationship between the piston, crank, and rod are very important when applying torque to the crank. 

As I stated in the original thread about the rod failure, the con-rod has maximum leverage on the crankshaft at a point when the crankshaft center to rod journal center forms a right angle to the con-rod ceterline. At any point other than this the crankshaft leverage ratio increases. 

In Trig trems, the side adjacent is the con -rod, the side opposite is the crank, and the hypotenuse is a line between the wrist pin center and the crank main journals.

If you seal an MS260 cylinder, then pressurize it with 100psi you will get a force of about 243 pounds on the piston. That same force will be constant at TDC, BDC, and everywhere in between. At BDC you will be able to move the crank back and forth with minimal effort. Put the con-rod and crank at the mentioned right angle position and the effort to move the crank toward TDC increases a great deal. Continue to move the crank toward TDC and the effort will lessen, although the force on the crown of the piston is constant. 

That reduction of required effort is the same thing you feel when you draw a compound bow, or use a cam locking clamp. 

If you place the piston near TDC with an uncompressable item in the bore, your ability to use the crank as a lever against the con-rod is greatly increased. 

Putting it another way, If you put 100 lbs./ft. of torque on the crank you exert a much greater force against what you are compressing at 15deg. BTDC than you do at 60deg. BTDC.

I would imagine that Stihl's piston stop places the rod and crank in a relationship that favors the connecting rod.


Or, just use an impact wrench...


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

bookerdog said:


> Now Ol boy ya know after whipping up the floor with ya I have left you alone. I have seen to many old sports figuares go on to long. The guys who left the site because of threads like this you say is totally stupid if thats the reason they left. Who really cares what the cylinder looks like. If its bad its bad. If steal starts having problems they will pay the price. Sooner or later things catch up to companies.
> To many people here take things to seriously. Ive had people cry to mods about some of the things Ive done. Crud ola Ive had to put warning labels on my video's LOL. I never could understand this kind of crud. If you don't like it don't buy it. If it will piss ya off don't read it. If it will piss ya don't watch it.
> Now if a man can pitch it as well as take it without getting all school girl pissy great. If ya can't stay out of the fire. I love the hit and runners. Guys on this site that don't like the dog. They come into a thread take a shot then leave and wait for the next thread. Of coarse we have the Lets talk in another language people. That come into a thread and put up there cute little sayings in french, german or some other language and think its funny.
> Now tommi boy don't let alittle thread get ya all pissy. *Your about the only one that can take my crud.*




Ya dayuummmmmmmmm right. This thread doesn't bug me Booker, no pansy here, you should know that. Sending fire back as fast as it arrives has never been a problem. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Don't Back Down. Ever heard that Booker, good song. Far as this thread goes a million posts can be written but my mind will not be changed about that world famous cylinder and the dealings surrounding it. So lets rock, I'll start. If someone walked in the shop carring that thing and the story behind it with the regestration card and reciept, asking for another to pocket some money would get laffed at and sent packing. Thats not riling, thats fact. If they came in hollering Stihl quality has gone to hell I would say what the hell are you doing here then, get out. Thats not riling, thats what my reply would be. Ask 2k how I operate in the shop in the real world, things like in this thread would be stettled in less than 30 seconds.

Now to more important things Booker, did you send those DVDs today? Your Sopranos will be on the truck tomorrow, thanks for sharing them,


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So did we force Mr. Hall into retirement?



No Brad, your not so lucky. I'd like to see this thread cease but in order to do so someone has to give up, its not gonna be me, sorry.


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## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ya dayuummmmmmmmm right. This thread doesn't bug me Booker, no pansy here, you should know that. Sending fire back as fast as it arrives has never been a problem. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Don't Back Down. Ever heard that Booker, good song. Far as this thread goes a million posts can be written but my mind will not be changed about that world famous cylinder and the dealings surrounding it. So lets rock, I'll start. If someone walked in the shop carring that thing and the story behind it with the regestration card and reciept, asking for another to pocket some money would get laffed at and sent packing. Thats not riling, thats fact. If they came in hollering Stihl quality has gone to hell I would say what the hell are you doing here then, get out. Thats not riling, thats what my reply would be. Ask 2k how I operate in the shop in the real world, things like in this thread would be stettled in less than 30 seconds.
> 
> Now to more important things Booker, did you send those DVDs today? Your Sopranos will be on the truck tomorrow, thanks for sharing them,



So are you to tell me if a concerned customer pointed out obvious defects you would cut them off at dealer level is that the service training stihl gives?


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## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

You have to have blinders on not to agree that these couldn't be observations of someone relatively new to the site. "loyal stihl user"
probably needs edited, that was before coming to the site, I use the efco saw as much as any and plan on using the dolmar 143 as soon as I get the time to get it fixed. I'm going to buy a 70-80cc saw this fall and certainly have ruled out a 372, it'll be a 372, 441, 460. It just depends on the read I get from the new husky dealer, pricing and how they feel when cutting.

As to #2. if a statement had been made in the same tone against your company, lively hood or family, would you not consider it bordline slanderous and liable. The tone is what I had an issue with, and Brad has been man enough to admit it was probably strong.

As to#4. AS is a marketing tool for modders, they are allowed to be sponsors and talk about their trade openly on the forum, if thats the rules no issue other than the majority of firewood cutters,tree trimmer don't run modded saws.
My cousins family is the largest loggers in the area and they don't touch a modded saw and haven't for forty years.

As to #8. Thats just my opinion after reading post after post, there seems to be a blind following. It's just mine, dosen't have to be yours.

As to #12, After working as a VP for two very large and well respected companies that interact with the customer everyday, I can honestly tell you companies don't give a rats ass about the opinion of one guy, it's sad but it's true. I've seen it first hand numerous times, times have changed my friend they just care about the bottom line profit, if you believe otherwise, your kiddin yourself.

As for the rest, is it not a legitimate question, I have seen all types of claims in my past life in marketing, only Brad can answer that question and I believe he has the integrity to answer it honestly. If it was just to call out the crappy quality, then I believe him, it's just a question you have to ask when someone makes part of their lively hood off the credibility gained on the site.

I don't have a problem with the modders, I just personally understand why a person would pay that kind of change to have perfectly running saw, sometimes under warranty messed with by someone half way across the country with only u-tube vids to show the results. I respect the technical compentcy of some of the modders, computer simulations, precise mfg methods being used with consistent results, but do you wonder if the more radical modds discussed are really beneficial, with the equipment I have and the mfg knowledge I have, I could crank em out all day long it's just not my thing. 

I don't even know Thall, it's just an observation, and I believe an accurate one that some just enjoy bashing him. Does he bash back, I don't deny that, it's pretty amusing reading at times. 

I'm an independent, just call them as I see them, certainly doesn't mean thats the gospel, like rectums everybody has an opinion and that's what's great about this country, everybody is entitled to his own and the freedom to express it.

The Stihl vs. Husky argument is ridiculous, both are good products, each to his own.





2. The manner in which it was called out was over the top and is borderline libelous and defamatory.

4.AS has become a marketing/advertising tool for saw modders that charge 200-300 to mod saws to some level of higher performance. 

8. Saw Modders words are the gospel to a majority. 

12. Will it likely solve the issue, doubt it, I seriously think Stihl could care less if Brad supports the brand, I imagine they hope he will start supporting another. It's the same attitude most large companies have just not Stihl.

The only question/issue I really would like to know with 100% honesty was the post used to just call out Stihl or was there some, if just a little chest beating going on to draw attention to oneself to lend credibility to the status of a "saw builder" for self credibility gains, puffing the ego a little---not that there is anything wrong with it, if we are all honest we all do it to some degree concerning some facet of our life.


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> That's only true when you're transferring force from the piston to the crankshaft. It couldn't possibly be true when the crankshaft is being pushed against the rod.



Ed could you explain that, isn't the piston on top of the rod, awwwwwwwww it is isn't it. I don't know if your joking or serious, I hope your joking..


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## Tzed250 (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> The only question/issue I really would like to know with 100% honesty was the post used to just call out Stihl or was there some, if just a little chest beating going on to draw attention to oneself to lend credibility to the status of a "saw builder" for self credibility gains, puffing the ego a little---not that there is anything wrong with it, if we are all honest we all do it to some degree concerning some facet of our life.




IS,

See this post for your answer...


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> So are you to tell me if a concerned customer pointed out obvious defects you would cut them off at dealer level is that the service training stihl gives?



No Rope, I'm saying if they came in hollering and expecting something for nothing to go make a buck I would send them packing fast. Take note I've said many times if the person who bought the saw brought the entire saw in with a complaint, not the modder, fully assembled, then notta a problem, I fix it, not the modder. Thats how it works in the real world no matter where you go.


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## Tzed250 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> That's only true when you're transferring force from the piston to the crankshaft. It couldn't possibly be true when the crankshaft is being pushed against the rod.



Isaac Newton is rolling over in his grave...


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## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No Rope, I'm saying if they came in hollering and expecting something for nothing to go make a buck I would send them packing fast. Take note I've said many times if the person who bought the saw brought the entire saw in with a complaint, not the modder, fully assembled, then notta a problem, I fix it, not the modder. Thats how it works in the real world no matter where you go.



Well I guess that would make sense btw I looked at the outside of my 200t and did not see any flaws external, so; guess I got a good one! I won't bother even checking the cheaper version I had to buy as back up when I got real busy a few moths ago. It will likely get moodded as it seems such a piece.


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> HEY!! That's a LONG LINE right there, and it starts behind *ME!! *
> 
> 
> 
> .



Ha, 1.6cu in or 1.6hp Woodie, no nuts unless you back up your claim, puss,LOL


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Well I guess that would make sense btw I looked at the outside of my 200t and did not see any flaws external, so; guess I got a good one! I won't bother even checking the cheaper version I had to buy as back up when I got real busy a few moths ago. It will likely get moodded as it seems such a piece.



Rope I knew you we're reasonable all along. Yes it makes sense, thats how its done everywhere. Think about it Rope, I buy a saw from you and take it to a modder. He opens it up, doesn't like what he see's and now he's at your door demanding something you knew nothing about and wants it for free so he can make a buck off the guy you sold it to, telling you the quality is poor, you would send him packing just as fast as me. Almost like you sawing trees down for people and then turning around and paying those people for letting you do it, I don't think so.


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## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No Brad, your not so lucky. I'd like to see this thread cease but in order to do so someone has to give up, its not gonna be me, sorry.



LOL, I agree Tom, I'd like this thread to stop, cause it's wasting so much of my dam time. And I just can't stay away, LOL. 



THALL10326 said:


> No Rope, I'm saying if they came in hollering and expecting something for nothing to go make a buck I would send them packing fast. Take note I've said many times if the person who bought the saw brought the entire saw in with a complaint, not the modder, fully assembled, then notta a problem, I fix it, not the modder. Thats how it works in the real world no matter where you go.



I like the way you operate Tommy. I'm a auto tech, we've had people come in and say, you fixed my car, then later something went wrong with it, I took it somewhere else and had it fixed, and now I want you to pay the bill?? ha ha ha LOL LOL, their lucky I'm not on the front counter, because I'm not so diplomatic with this kinda stuff. If you would have just brought it back to us in the first place we would of gladly taken care of it if it was the fault of ours. Not for some other party to decide. The warranty is with us and no other. I'd tell them to take a trip to fcukity off land!!!


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## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No Brad, your not so lucky. I'd like to see this thread cease but in order to do so someone has to give up, its not gonna be me, sorry.



Now it makes sense...logic and common sense be damned, whoever posts last wins!


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## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

I just can't help but thinking that a contributing factor to the rod failing is the rod being stretched and stressed due to being run at rpm's for long periods of time that it wasn't designed for, happens in auto's doesn't it, couldn't it be a contributing factor in this instance. A guy just has to accept that as a risk when exceeding the design limits of anything that sees that kind of inertial force/stress applied to it. Isn't it only reasonable that it would weaken?


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## epicklein22 (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> I just can't help but thinking that a contributing factor to the rod failing is the rod being stretched and stressed due to being run at rpm's for long periods of time that it wasn't designed for, happens in auto's doesn't it, couldn't it be a contributing factor in this instance. A guy just has to accept that as a risk when exceeding the design limits of anything that sees that kind of inertial force/stress applied to it. Isn't it only reasonable that it would weaken?



Maybe, but nothing can be proved. I would think the rod would snap before it would stretch.


----------



## timberwolf (May 11, 2009)

> Maybe, but nothing can be proved. I would think the rod would snap before it would stretch.



It's going to have to streach before it reaches the yield point and starts to fatigue and fracture.

Rods have been pushed much further than brad pushed that 180 and have held up fine. No doubt though, more RPM is more tensil force on the rod at TDC.


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## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> I think he'll survive.



Hey you forgot one, I think you and Brad are related, don't be shy when its you buddy,LOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> Now it makes sense...logic and common sense be damned, whoever posts last wins!



There is a winner in all this, whats the prize?????


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> No Rope, I'm saying if they came in hollering and expecting something for nothing to go make a buck I would send them packing fast. Take note I've said many times if the person who bought the saw brought the entire saw in with a complaint, not the modder, fully assembled, then notta a problem, I fix it, not the modder. Thats how it works in the real world no matter where you go.



Plus, if you take it in to Mr. Bojangles here, he'll do a little 70-page song and dance number for you. 



.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

So come on down...come on down to Bojangles Stihl...where we'll treat you like a king!!*


_
* Rodney King..._

.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> There is a winner in all this, whats the prize?????



A decent cylinder I hope.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> LOL, I agree Tom, I'd like this thread to stop, cause it's wasting so much of my dam time. And I just can't stay away, LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the way you operate Tommy. I'm a auto tech, we've had people come in and say, you fixed my car, then later something went wrong with it, I took it somewhere else and had it fixed, and now I want you to pay the bill?? ha ha ha LOL LOL, their lucky I'm not on the front counter, because I'm not so diplomatic with this kinda stuff. If you would have just brought it back to us in the first place we would of gladly taken care of it if it was the fault of ours. Not for some other party to decide. The warranty is with us and no other. I'd tell them to take a trip to fcukity off land!!!



Its just plain common sense Parris, you know it, you just wrote it. If a man came in the shop carring that cylinder to show me the defects in it thats one thing, I'll cry with him, him expecting a free one condsidering the story on this saw is totally insane. First question would be where is the rest of the saw, who took it apart and why. You just wrote your shop wouldn't do, I know dayumm well I wouldn't do it. If Brads dealer will good on him, he's more free with freebies than me..


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Plus, if you take it in to Mr. Bojangles here, he'll do a little 70-page song and dance number for you.
> 
> 
> 
> .



1.6ci or 1.6Hp,? Woodie you remind me of Sammy Davis in more ways than one,hehe


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Hey you forgot one, I think you and Brad are related, don't be shy when its you buddy,LOL



Was that English? Are your lips getting tired from all this reading?

And who taught you about relatedness...your uncle-dad?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Its just plain common sense Parris, you know it, you just wrote it. If a man came in the shop carring that cylinder to show me the defects in it thats one thing, I'll cry with him, him expecting a free one condsidering the story on this saw is totally insane. First question would be where is the rest of the saw, who took it apart and why. You just wrote your shop wouldn't do, I know dayumm well I wouldn't do it. If Brads dealer will good on him, he's more free with freebies than me..



I wonder if that shop owner knows how Stihl has been thrown under the bus in this thread???


----------



## PB (May 11, 2009)

*I like beer.*













A lot.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> First question would be where is the rest of the saw, who took it apart and why.



That's the part I don't understand...you agree that the cylinder is substandard, so why shouldn't Stihl replace it? It is a matter of legality with the warranty?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> A decent cylinder I hope.



Really, cheap prize man, how bout a whole saw???


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Its just plain common sense Parris, you know it, you just wrote it. If a man came in the shop carring that cylinder to show me the defects in it thats one thing, I'll cry with him, him expecting a free one condsidering the story on this saw is totally insane. First question would be where is the rest of the saw, who took it apart and why. You just wrote your shop wouldn't do, I know dayumm well I wouldn't do it. If Brads dealer will good on him, he's more free with freebies than me..



Yup, your right, I did just write it. And I do agree with ya on that one. I do think it was a little ballsey of Brad to do what he did bringing in the cylinder for a new one. If his dealer comes through for him, well that says allot I guess. I guess in the end, Brad and his customer have an agreement, and Brads customer was happy with what he did and how he handled it, so that's all that matters in the end, that they are happy with it. If he gets no new cylinder then oh well, live an learn.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> That's the part I don't understand...you agree that the cylinder is substandard, so why shouldn't Stihl replace it? It is a matter of legality with the warranty?



Read the warranty Ed, its been taken apart by a non-certified person, he is not certified to work on that saw. How is Stihl to know what happen between the time it was taken apart and the time it got to the shop. Thats why they say take it to your dealer. If it had any warranty at all left on it he tossed it the minute he tore it apart. He is not entitled to a free cylinder, the orginal purchaser may be but Brad screwed that mans warranty up when he took it apart. Thats just the way it is on most anything you buy. Once it was taken apart the quality issue is moot, there is no warranty period.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Really, cheap prize man, how bout a whole saw???



Redmax?


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> The only question/issue I really would like to know with 100% honesty was the post used to just call out Stihl or was there some, if just a little chest beating going on to draw attention to oneself to lend credibility to the status of a "saw builder" for self credibility gains, puffing the ego a little---not that there is anything wrong with it, if we are all honest we all do it to some degree concerning some facet of our life.



Oh come on! You make a lot of good sense, but that's rediculous. How in the world does showing a poor quality cylinder equate to my beating on my chest? Give me a break! How does showing a bent rod and a hole in a piston build me up? *If anything, I'm comfortable enough with who and what I am that I can risk the flack that someone is always ready to through.* I willingly took that risk, and would do it again. Stihl has been shipping these substandard cylinders for months now and I chose to call them out loud and clear on it. I'd do it again. This thread would only be a few pages long if it weren't for 2-3 people trying to defend Stihl. 

You also made mention that most of the members here wouldn't really care. I tend to differ with you. I'd love to see a poll on it. I don't care to start another thread, but I'd add a poll to this one if I could.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Read the warranty Ed, its been taken apart by a non-certified person, he is not certified to work on that saw. How is Stihl to know what happen between the time it was taken apart and the time it got to the shop. Thats why they say take it to your dealer. If it had any warranty at all left on it he tossed it the minute he tore it apart. He is not entitled to a free cylinder, the orginal purchaser may be but Brad screwed that mans warranty up when he took it apart. Thats just the way it is on most anything you buy. Once it was taken apart the quality issue is moot, there is no warranty period.



That's what I figured...but I would imagine that it is like the no drinking law in state parks...they only enforce it when there is trouble.

Here's why I'd go broke if I ever started a business. I's save the "voided the warranty" speech for those that deserve it. In this case, I would make a concerted effort to make it right, because it is obvious that this is a flawed part not an abused part.

Remember, I'm not saying that's what should be done, I'm saying that's why I'd lose money.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> 1.6ci or 1.6Hp,? Woodie you remind me of Sammy Davis in more ways than one,hehe



Funny thing today...I finally got around to taking care of the lawn for the first time this season.

I hadn't run either of my *1.6 hp *Kawasaki tools since November of last year. Put in fresh mix, and you're not going to believe how frickin' badly they had deteriorated over just six months.

Both pieces took *TWO PULLS APIECE* to start!! TWO!! That's TWICE AS MANY AS USUAL!! I tells ya...when a Kawi won't start on the first pull...what is the world coming to??!!!

On a secondary note, I did finally get the blower started again.

And it Stihl wouldn't accelerate.


.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Read the warranty Ed, its been taken apart by a non-certified person, he is not certified to work on that saw. How is Stihl to know what happen between the time it was taken apart and the time it got to the shop. Thats why they say take it to your dealer. If it had any warranty at all left on it he tossed it the minute he tore it apart. He is not entitled to a free cylinder, the orginal purchaser may be but Brad screwed that mans warranty up when he took it apart. Thats just the way it is on most anything you buy. Once it was taken apart the quality issue is moot, there is no warranty period.



I would tend to disagree. Just because it says it in the warranty doesn't mean it's enforcable in a court of law. Stihl's warranty can say you have to bring it in to the dealer while wearing a bear suit, but only Virginia would enforce that. 

Probably something that varies by state.


.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Yup, *your right*, I did just write it. And I do agree with ya on that one. I do think it was a little ballsey of Brad to do what he did bringing in the cylinder for a new one. If his dealer comes through for him, well that says allot I guess. I guess in the end, Brad and his customer have an agreement, and Brads customer was happy with what he did and how he handled it, so that's all that matters in the end, that they are happy with it. If he gets no new cylinder then oh well, live an learn.



Your out of the game, you must be seated now, I got a "your right" out of you!!

Seriously if they give him a new cylinder great, if not, live and learn. Grr I repeated you, guess your back in the game, get up,LOL


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Your out of the game, you must be seated now, I got a "your right" out of you!!
> 
> Seriously if they give him a new cylinder great, if not, live and learn. Grr I repeated you, guess your back in the game, get up,LOL



Technically he was never out...your right is just on the opposite side from your left.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> I would tend to disagree. Just because it says it in the warranty doesn't mean it's enforcable in a court of law. Stihl's warranty can say you have to bring it in to the dealer while wearing a bear suit, but only Virginia would enforce that.
> 
> Probably something that varies by state.
> 
> ...



Haha, Woodie even though you never would think of doing this. Buy a Stihl weed trimmer, take it home and take the string gaurd off, go use it and the motor burns up in less than 2 hours. You bring to me, I see the string guard is gone, guess what, your screwed, no warranty, you altered the machine. I'm firm about that too, I never give warranty to anyone who removes the string guard, why, because I can, read the warranty. However I also tell every person that buys one if you remove that guard no warranty, they still remove the guard, oh well.

Brad may well get a new cylinder, lets hope he gets one, no money out of my pocket, won't bother me, but is he entittled to one with the story behind that saw, no way. Don't beleive it, bring it Va to Leesburg and I'll show ya. I'll say man thats a crappy looking cylinder, wanna buy a new one or what, don't have all day, you want a free one, ok, where is the saw, who's is it and why is it apart, to mod, ha. Have a nice day.


----------



## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

Brad, you answered my question and I believe you as I stated I believe you have the integrity to call a spade a spade, some people could have used it that way. I'll give you credit for answering the question! I respect and accept your reply, but I don't think the average, and for the most part people who are on AS is a enthusiast, not your average occasional wood cutter, most of the guys I know is just give a tool that'll get the job done, and that meets their criteria, now if you set them down give them a class on old vs new what the difference was, it would probably create some doubt, but of the millions of saw owners in this country only a couple thousand if that will ever hear of the issue, and with this countries short memory they would forget it in two weeks, some people have forgotten we were attacked on 9/11 and bad guys are still out there to harm Americans on their home soil.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Haha, Woodie even though you never would think of doing this. Buy a Stihl weed trimmer, take it home and take the string gaurd off, go use it and the motor burns up in less than 2 hours. You bring to me, I see the string guard is gone, guess what, your screwed, no warranty, you altered the machine. I'm firm about that too, I never give warranty to anyone who removes the string guard, why, because I can, read the warranty. However I also tell every person that buys one if you remove that guard no warranty, they still remove the guard, oh well.
> 
> Brad may well get a new cylinder, lets hope he gets one, no money out of my pocket, won't bother me, but is he entittled to one with the story behind that saw, no way. Don't beleive it, bring it Va to Leesburg and I'll show ya. I'll say man thats a crappy looking cylinder, wanna buy a new one or what, don't have all day, you want a free one, ok, where is the saw, who's is it and why is it apart, to mod, ha. Have a nice day.



Two different things. One is someone doing something that caused damage. Clearly they are not entitled to repairs.

Brad's case is something entirely different...it is a manufacturing issue. And no, it shouldn't have to fail to be a identifiable as a manufacturing problem.

Is that why you keep asking how long it will run for? As long as it doesn't fail before the warranty expires it's "good enough"?


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Funny thing today...I finally got around to taking care of the lawn for the first time this season.
> 
> I hadn't run either of my *1.6 hp *Kawasaki tools since November of last year. Put in fresh mix, and you're not going to believe how frickin' badly they had deteriorated over just six months.
> 
> ...



Two pulls, sounds like a quality issue with the cylinder, take it apart and go to your dealer with the cylinder, let me know what he tells you!!

Pull the limit cap off the high screw on the blower, turn the screw a 1/4-1/2 turn out, it will blow almost as hard as you do.....

KAWA says 1.6ci, not 1.6HP Sammy,hehe


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> most of the guys I know is just give a tool that'll get the job done, and that meets their criteria,



That's why we have Lowe's and Walmart.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Pull the limit cap off the high screw on the blower...



Let me get this straight...you want me to DISASSEMBLE a part of the carburetor??

Under warranty?????

.


----------



## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

THall, might as well be talkin to a that yankee has a comprehension problem, he doesn't get what you have stated over and over

That if the original owner brought the saw in stated it had serious performance issues, that a tech would tear down the saw and if nothing else stood out as being wrong, but the cylinder looked like this pos, he would more than likely walk out with a new cylinder that was without flaws or a new saw, Stihl would catch the bill.

He doesn't get when a third party that has no ties to Stihl or the warranty process tears down the saw, and determines the cylinder to be a pos, it voids the warranty. He doesn't think like a company owner, or if he was writing the check. He would just replace everything that came in the door and be bankrupt very quickly. It's just like when I worked retail, people would go out and buy yard sale and flea market crap leaving the sale stickers on and bring it in throw it on the counter and say I want my money back, it doesn't work. I'd send them down the road, they sometimes raise hell, not going to shop here anymore, which I'd reply great someone else can lose money on you.

He dosen't understand you have an obligation to the company you represent to adhere and follow their policies or you don't get reimbursed for the claim. Once in a while if it a good customer, you take one for the team but not in this instance.


----------



## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

Edisto, your right on that one, include Sears in that one. That's why you see more MTD, Murray, Sears by MTD, Yardman by MTD, Troy Built by MTD
pos mowers being used than Grasshopper, John Deere, Kubota,Walker and Bad Boy mowers combined, they want the cheapest thing they can get to mow the grass, don't care the deck will go in two or three years or the cost of repair will exceed what they saved.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Let me get this straight...you want me to DISASSEMBLE a part of the carburetor??
> 
> Under warranty?????



Of course he does...then it is no longer the companies problem.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> THall, might as well be talkin to a that yankee has a comprehension problem, he doesn't get what you have stated over and over



Indian...the above sentence was taken directly from your post, with no alterations in the process.

I'm gonna need you to go over that one with me.

Seriously, I don't believe you're the brightest light in the harbor, but I do believe that, if you're going to insult someone's comprehension of an idea, you should be able to express that thought in a complete sentence.


.


----------



## FATGUY (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> Two different things. One is someone doing something that caused damage. Clearly they are not entitled to repairs.
> 
> Brad's case is something entirely different...it is a manufacturing issue. And no, it shouldn't have to fail to be a identifiable as a manufacturing problem.
> 
> Is that why you keep asking how long it will run for? As long as it doesn't fail before the warranty expires it's "good enough"?



amongst journeyman, there's no such thing as "good enough." It's either good, or it isn't. And it isn't.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Let me get this straight...you want me to DISASSEMBLE a part of the carburetor??
> 
> Under warranty?????
> 
> .



Woodie the cap is on the outside of the carb, don't disassemble the carb, pull that little cap off, adjust the carb and put it back on. Like changing a chain, or air filter, very simple. The machine is running too lean. You have my blessing 

Is it under warranty, let your dealer adjust it, its free if you don't wanna fool with it. Up to you..


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Is it under warranty, let your dealer adjust it, its free if you don't wanna fool with it. Up to you..



I'd pay his dealer to charge him for that adjustment.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> Of course he does...then it is no longer the companies problem.



We would do anything to get rid of Woodie but removing that cap isn't one of them,LOL


----------



## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

Woodie, my error, you got me, trying to do two things at once, It was meant to say, Thall, you might as well give up, your addressing a yankee who has a comprehension problem. There that clears that up. Hell, you couldn't even carry my resume and professional accolades, you just never know what hillbillies from the south can accomplish, it would amaze you what a few of us illiterates are capable of.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I'd pay his dealer to charge him for that adjustment.:hmm3grin2orange:



2K you have been to my little hole in the wall, you seen how I operate. I'm very good with people that are good with me aren't I? Those that come looking or harping get what? If Brad brought that cylinder to me and told me the story on it what would I tell Brad in two shakes of a lamb tail? How long would Woodie last around me, I say 5 minutes, how long you say?


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> Woodie, my error, you got me, trying to do two things at once, It was meant to say, Thall, you might as well give up, your addressing a yankee who has a comprehension problem. There that clears that up. Hell, you couldn't even carry my resume and professional accolades, you just never know what hillbillies from the south can accomplish, it would amaze you what a few of us illiterates are capable of.



Just so that you know...I was born in the south, raised in the south, and have lived the majority of my life in the south.

I consider myself Southern.

I do not, however, carry the same inferiority complex that lineage seems to have given you.

.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> Woodie, my error, you got me, trying to do two things at once, It was meant to say, Thall, you might as well give up, your addressing a yankee who has a comprehension problem. There that clears that up. Hell, you couldn't even carry my resume and professional accolades, you just never know what hillbillies from the south can accomplish, it would amaze you what a few of us illiterates are capable of.



Funny, I saw that line and knew what you meant by it even though it wasn't finnished, Woodie is just picky as hell, thats all..


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> How long would Woodie last around me, I say 5 minutes, how long you say?



Surely the gas would drive me away in three.

.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Surely the gas would drive me away in three.
> 
> .



Thought you just said you was from the south, woose,LOL


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

indiansprings said:


> ...but I don't think the average, and for the most part people who are on AS is a enthusiast, not your average occasional wood cutter, most of the guys I know is just give a tool that'll get the job done, and that meets their criteria, now if you set them down give them a class on old vs new what the difference was, it would probably create some doubt, but of the millions of saw owners in this country only a couple thousand if that will ever hear of the issue, and with this countries short memory they would forget it in two weeks, some people have forgotten we were attacked on 9/11 and bad guys are still out there to harm Americans on their home soil.



I'm trying to find a period in the above, but there isn't one, lol:greenchainsaw: 

Anyway, to my point. I agree with you 100% that most people would care about the inner workings of a tool. They're happy if it just works. But I do believe that 90% of the AS members that frequent the chainsaw forum would care.


----------



## FATGUY (May 11, 2009)

I tell you, this thread is like a scab. I know it won't go away if I keep picking at it, I just can't help myself....


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

*This is too funny*

I'm sitting here in a thread where Stihl's reputation is on the line, their quality is failing. I hear my AOL go you got mail. Then it does it again. Then it does it again, bang bang bang. I open my mail and low and behold there are three e-mails from Sthl Power Chord, the online thing from Stihl, I just sold three more Stihl's sitting here on my azz. Will be picked up tomorrow at the shop, ordered online. Timing is a beautifull thing isn't. So much for this thread affecting Stihl sales, unfrigging real, gotta love it...


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

Come on now Tom. Are you saying you wouldn't try to take care of this for me if I was in your shop often, daily at times, buying thousands of dollars worth of Stihl parts over the last three years? Plus I just bought a new ZTR mower Saturday. My dealer has had me find parts for them they needed for a customers saw and couldn't get new. It's just that kind of relationship. I don't believe for one minute you wouldn't try to help out someone like this. This cylinder has not been modified in anyway. It's just as it came from the factory. I may take it back to them yet and see what happens. Why not? I have nothing to loose.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> 2K you have been to my little hole in the wall, you seen how I operate. I'm very good with people that are good with me aren't I? Those that come looking or harping get what? If Brad brought that cylinder to me and told me the story on it what would I tell Brad in two shakes of a lamb tail? How long would Woodie last around me, I say 5 minutes, how long you say?



I think all of them could get along with ya. If they come a barkin', they will be howlin' out the door. I made my first post thinking the whole saw would be taken in and checked out by a tech, Now I see no reason for his dealer to replace that cylinder under warrenty because that dealer doesn't know the complete story. Woodie may catch a hammer upside the ole noggin', but I'm sure it's happened before. Either one is going to get a ear full of cuss and Elvis tunes, LOL.

I'm not sure how much longer I'll be with Nissan but if I leave, I'll have to drive down and help ya wrench for a day or two. I Stihl need to check out Hoss's collection and maybe meet Eddie.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Just so that you know...I was born in the south, raised in the south, and have lived the majority of my life in the south.
> 
> I consider myself Southern.
> 
> ...



Please edit that, you are giving us real Southern folks a bad name.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Come on now Tom. Are you saying you wouldn't try to take care of this for me if I was in your shop often, daily at times, buying thousands of dollars worth of Stihl parts over the last three years? Plus I just bought a new ZTR mower Saturday. My dealer has had me find parts for them they needed for a customers saw and couldn't get new. It's just that kind of relationship. I don't believe for one minute you wouldn't try to help out someone like this. This cylinder has not been modified in anyway. It's just as it came from the factory. I may take it back to them yet and see what happens. Why not? I have nothing to loose.



Tom would help ya out no question, but you will have to approach the issue a different way then what was done here.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Come on now Tom. Are you saying you wouldn't try to take care of this for me if I was in your shop often, daily at times, buying thousands of dollars worth of Stihl parts over the last three years? Plus I just bought a new ZTR mower Saturday. My dealer has had me find parts for them they needed for a customers saw and couldn't get new. It's just that kind of relationship. I don't believe for one minute you wouldn't try to help out someone like this. This cylinder has not been modified in anyway. It's just as it came from the factory. I may take it back to them yet and see what happens. Why not? I have nothing to loose.



I said the only way you would get one is if you was tight with your dealer and he convinced Stihl to provide the cylinder. I also said I hope you get one, really I do, I mean that. 

As for me I do not think my guys would approve of a saw being taken apart by you for modding purposes and then bringing the cylinder in complaining about quality. What your doing is 100% against all manufactures guidlelines Brad, you know that , I know that, your dealer knows that. They cannot and will not be a part of what your doing in any way with those saws because of legal reasons, liability reasons, your not cerified by Stihl to be doing what your doing, even if you know what your doing, and yes your voiding the warranty as well. Its cut and dry Brad, they give you a cylinder, your gonna mod it, hand the saw someone, the machine has been altered, they get hurt with it, who gets sued, you or Stihl. Thats why no manufacture wants anything to do with saw builders, those are facts Brad. Its nothing personal on you but things are what they are. You may not beleive one word I just said but one day, god forbid, and I wish no bad luck to you, but what can happen usually does. I myself would not want my hands touching the cylinder you want, that ties me to it, no thanks..


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So much for this thread affecting Stihl sales, unfrigging real, gotta love it...



You're arguing with your imagination again. No one EVER said this thread would hurt Stihl.

If they make a habit of putting out cylinders like that, their sales might get hurt though. Most consumers will pay box store prices for box store equipment.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Please edit that, you are giving us real Southern folks a bad name.



All ya'll got it wrong. It's pronounced Suthrun.


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Tom would help ya out no question, but you will have to approach the issue a different way then what was done here.



My post was aimed directly at those on this forum that hold up Stihl OEM as the gold standard of all parts. I would not give that kind of flack to my dealer. He hasn't asked for it. Matter of fact, he agreed with my 100% when he saw this cylinder. Unfortunately, Lakeside has chosed to abandon ship. That's cool though. There are way important things in life than this forum. I just haven't figured out what they are yet, LOL


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

*Oh Toooooooooooooomyyyyyyyyyyyy*

*This just in:*












My thanks to Erick...


.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> You're arguing with your imagination again. No one EVER said this thread would hurt Stihl.



A few guys have already posted they were thinking of buying a Stihl but might go with another brand now after seeing this.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> All ya'll got it wrong. It's pronounced Suthrun.



Yee hawwwww


----------



## Erick (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> LOL, Woodie show me you got a set, man up, did it say 1.6HP or 1.6cu.in, come on let me hear it. Come on, let me hear you say what it really said, come on, just say what it said, easy to type, repeat after me, 1.6cu.in, not 1.6HP like you was blow harding about as usual,LOLOL



Why Woodie, I wonder could you look and tell me again how many HP that KGT27A is???


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> amongst journeyman, there's no such thing as "good enough." It's either good, or it isn't. And it isn't.



If any of us had any sense the thread would end right there.

Leave it to a canuck!

They won't let me rep you though...I guess I have to be more global.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *This just in:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Woodie is that 1.6HP, I knew that a week ago,lolololol


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> My post was aimed directly at those on this forum that hold up Stihl OEM as the gold standard of all parts. I would not give that kind of flack to my dealer. He hasn't asked for it. Matter of fact, he agreed with my 100% when he saw this cylinder. Unfortunately, Lakeside has chosed to abandon ship. That's cool though. There are way important things in life than this forum. I just haven't figured out what they are yet, LOL



If your dealer has decided to give ya a new cylinder, then he is a good dealer acting only on a personal basis, I can understand this due to all the bussiness you have spent there. I doubt he would do that for a joe blow.

Why add Lake in? You just wanted his input?


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

Erick said:


> Why Woodie, I wonder could you look and tell me again how many HP that KGT27A is???




Poor ol' Tommy...his dancin' shoes is done all wore out, now!!!


*BRAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!*

Thanks man...you just handed ol' Tommy the smackdown of all time!!!!!


.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Woodie is that 1.6HP, I knew that a week ago,lolololol



Interesting...why, just yesterday you said I didn't have a set.

Well...today...you can lick my balls. 


.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> *This just in:*
> 
> My thanks to Erick...
> 
> ...






Here is some *Kawasaki* power for ya Woodie!!!















.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Poor ol' Tommy...his dancin' shoes is done all wore out, now!!!
> 
> 
> *BRAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!*
> ...



A smackdown with a Kawa? Really? Ya'll racing bikes or quads?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Here is some *Kawasaki* power for ya Woodie!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ahhh yes, a Kawa worth speaking of.


----------



## indiansprings (May 11, 2009)

Brad, in his own way Thall is trying to give some good advice, get you some liability insurance to cover yourself on saw modifications, whether we like or not, when money in involved people you would think would never ever sue you will. After sending countless days in depositions and lawsuits covering product liability I know the seriousness of that issue first hand, that's why I carry 3 mil in general farm liability, the last thing I want is someone coming on the property getting hurt and suing my rear off. That's why Wal-Mart makes vendors carry product liability and indemnify them. A rubber band or paper clip has to have two million, a trampoline twenty million and on it just keeps going up, a paper towel carries two million, why people sue, little Johnny sticks a paperclip in his mouth, chokes and dies. Here they come with lawyer in tow, Wal-Mart was wrong, the clip should have been designed to be choke proof. It's that damn nutty, I can assure you. Protect yourself and your family.
The saw you may change hands from the good ole boy that had it modded but the new owner knows it's been snellerized, goes out cuts a limb in half like his wild thingy never did, cuts his thang off. Now he can't have proper relations, your fault, the damn saw was too fast. Good for a five million dollar suit. Extreme example, but you never know about us hillbilles.


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Here is some *Kawasaki* power for ya Woodie!!!



Just whatEVER you do, don't quote the hp on that bad boy...we'll never hear the end of it from thall!


.


----------



## Erick (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> A smackdown with a Kawa? Really? Ya'll racing bikes or quads?



Trimmers beeeotch :bringit:


----------



## Tzed250 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Just whatEVER you do, don't quote the hp on that bad boy...we'll never hear the end of it from thall!
> 
> 
> .



I'm from WV, the power is rated in Megapossums!!


----------



## Erick (May 11, 2009)

(in my best Starkist Tuna voice)

*"Sorry Tommie"*


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

Erick said:


> Trimmers beeeotch :bringit:








Just wanted to show ya a real trimmer.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Your out of the game, you must be seated now, I got a "your right" out of you!!
> 
> Seriously if they give him a new cylinder great, if not, live and learn. Grr I repeated you, guess your back in the game, get up,LOL



Im up. But this dam thread is still wasting my time. LOL



2000ssm6 said:


> A few guys have already posted they were thinking of buying a Stihl but might go with another brand now after seeing this.



2K, Stihl did it to them selves not BRAD!!! Take responsibility for oneself. I'm really tired of its somebody's else's fault CRAP!!! T-Wolf and Slinger have pointed this out as well. So I guess your saying its their fault too??? I agree that cyl is crap, so I guess its my fault now too. Tommy agreed it looks like crap too, so he's in too. I guess Stihl is going to revoke his dealership now.


----------



## Erick (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Just wanted to show ya a real trimmer.



So you still planning on doing that or what?? :dunno:


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

"That's only true when you're transferring force from the piston to the crankshaft."



THALL10326 said:


> Ed could you explain that, isn't the piston on top of the rod, awwwwwwwww it is isn't it. I don't know if your joking or serious, I hope your joking..



I was joking about the direction of the forces being different when the expansion of gas pushes on the piston, and when the crank is turned by a wrench...but the rod is, in fact, how the force is transferred from the piston to the crank. So...what exactly needs explaining?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

Erick said:


> So you still planning on doing that or what?? :dunno:



Pink slips? Do those Kawas have a good resale value? Don't know if my Stihl dealer will take one in on trade for another 100RX.


----------



## Jtheo (May 11, 2009)

*I have a new MS 361 with a cylinder stamped STIHL on the base of the cylinder above the clutch cover.

I am wondering if there is a Stihl dealer on this forum that would want to make an even trade for an new MS 361 that has MAHLE stamped on the base of the cylinder above the clutch cover.

I would pay UPS shipping and insurance both ways.

My saw has never seen fuel mix or bar oil, still new.

But I KNOW it will run and cut wood. And I KNOW that the cylinder must be as good as a Mahle, because I have read that right here on this thread.

It must be as good as a Mahle or Stihl would never have put that cylinder on the saw that I laid down over $600 to get out the door.

Thing is all my other saws have Mahle cylinders, and I would like for all my cylinders to match.:greenchainsaw:*


----------



## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Just wanted to show ya a real trimmer.


No bad castings here either.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Im up. But this dam thread is still wasting my time. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 2K, Stihl did it to them selves not BRAD!!! Take responsibility for oneself. I'm really tired of its somebody's else's fault CRAP!!! T-Wolf and Slinger have pointed this out as well. So I guess your saying its their fault too??? I agree that cyl is crap, so I guess its my fault now too. Tommy agreed it looks like crap too, so he's in too. I guess Stihl is going to revoke his dealership now.



Stihl as a company can't give out cylinders because it "looks bad", much less just bring in a cylinder off the saw and say, "look, it preforms bad". Brad has a good dealer but if Stihl finds out about this, his dealer will eat that cylinder. The saw should have went in as a whole, the complaint would have been "low power" and the right steps would have been taken to resolve this issue.

Me and you are in the auto repair bussiness, you just said you would not warranty that, me either. Now if it were one of my good customers, I would bend alittle to *try* and help.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> No bad castings here either.



LOL, I'm not checking either. If these peices of *** have problems, Stihl can fix 'em. I've not even touched the 211's muffler, it just runs so good. I'm thinking of just leaving it stock, I got enough of ported ones anyway.


----------



## stihl sawing (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> LOL, I'm not checking either. If these peices of *** have problems, Stihl can fix 'em. I've not even touched the 211's muffler, it just runs so good. I'm thinking of just leaving it stock, I got enough of ported ones anyway.


Nah no problems, Their STIHLS


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> "look, it preforms bad".



I'd say the preform and the form were bad.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> Nah no problems, Their STIHLS



Ah yes, #1. I think dad helped sale a 211 today. He was using it at a church clean up along with some pals using some pullons. They were not very happy about their purchases after running the tiny 211. I gotta put that big Stihl sticker on the truck's back window also, it will look great!


----------



## Erick (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Pink slips? Do those Kawas have a good resale value? Don't know if my Stihl dealer will take one in on trade for another 100RX.



My trimmer was built for real men.... sorry nothing pink about it. 

But we can run for a crying towel if you want... you're gonna need it. 

Me -->




 <-- you


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Stihl as a company can't give out cylinders because it "looks bad", much less just bring in a cylinder off the saw and say, "look, it preforms bad". Brad has a good dealer but if Stihl finds out about this, his dealer will eat that cylinder. The saw should have went in as a whole, the complaint would have been "low power" and the right steps would have been taken to resolve this issue.
> 
> Me and you are in the auto repair bussiness, you just said you would not warranty that, me either. Now if it were one of my good customers, I would bend alittle to *try* and help.



2K, I wasn't talking about that. I was responding to your statement of hurting Stihl. Re-read what I said.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> I'd say the preform and the form were bad.



For certain but we don't know how it "preformed".


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> 2K, I wasn't talking about that. I was responding to your statement of hurting Stihl. Re-read what I said.



If this thread made Stihl lose 1 sale, they were hurt, not enough to make a squat but it hurt.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> If this thread made Stihl lose 1 sale, they were hurt, not enough to make a squat but it hurt.



Yes, I know. But I was saying it wasn't Brad's fault!!!!!!!!! Stihl did it to themselves by putting a lesser quality cylinder in their saws. You can't blame Brad for simply just pointing it out.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

Erick said:


> My trimmer was built for real men.... sorry nothing pink about it.
> 
> But we can run for a crying towel if you want... you're gonna need it.
> 
> ...



No reason to be scared.

You before><a href='http://www.thescubasite.com/Scuba-Diving-Techniques/learn-underwater-videography' title='learn underwater videography'><img src='http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/ashamed/ashamed0006.gif' alt='learn underwater videography' border='0'></a> <a href='http://www.thescubasite.com/' title='scuba diving community'><img src='http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0043.gif' alt='scuba diving community' border='0'></a> <--Me after the showdown.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Yes, I know. But I was saying it wasn't Brad's fault!!!!!!!!! Stihl did it to themselves by putting a lesser quality cylinder in their saws. You can't blame Brad for simply just pointing it out.



This thread would not be almost 100 pages if it was "simply pointed out".


----------



## Erick (May 11, 2009)

I'm out fellas, the wife just said it was time for bed.... she wins.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> This thread would not be almost 100 pages if it was "simply pointed out".



That ain't the reason for the length of the thread.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> This thread would not be almost 100 pages if it was "simply pointed out".



Ummm ha ha. It's because people can't let it go.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

edisto said:


> That ain't the reason for the length of the thread.



Maybe not 100%, but I'd say atleast 90% of the reason.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Interesting...why, just yesterday you said I didn't have a set.
> 
> Well...today...you can lick my balls.
> 
> ...



Haha, like you really got a set. Had to get someone else to find FOR you what you couldn't produce yourself. If you ever want kids calls me, I can produce without help. Now lick that, woose,LOLOLOLOL


----------



## spacemule (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Maybe not 100%, but I'd say atleast 90% of the reason.



2000, the reason is simple. No one likes to see shoddy workmanship defended on a brand with a premium reputation. Simple as that. It's disgusting. It makes consumers feel they've had one put over on them. 

Had the defenders responded like Spike did in regards to problems that he's seen, that is, balanced and not making excuses and not running around after red herrings, this thread would have died a long time ago. If you'll notice, I quit stating the obvious way back in this thread, because it's obviously not helping anything. I do admit to losing a little bit of respect for several members here.

And that's all I'm going to say. May this thread die.


----------



## parrisw (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> 2000, the reason is simple. No one likes to see shoddy workmanship defended on a brand with a premium reputation. Simple as that. It's disgusting. It makes consumers feel they've had one put over on them.
> 
> Had the defenders responded like Spike did in regards to problems that he's seen, that is, balanced and not making excuses and not running around after red herrings, this thread would have died a long time ago. If you'll notice, I quit stating the obvious way back in this thread, because it's obviously not helping anything. I do admit to losing a little bit of respect for several members here.
> 
> And that's all I'm going to say. May this thread die.



Yes please, let it go, let it go, let it go. Kumbaya, my friend.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> I think all of them could get along with ya. If they come a barkin', they will be howlin' out the door. I made my first post thinking the whole saw would be taken in and checked out by a tech, Now I see no reason for his dealer to replace that cylinder under warrenty because that dealer doesn't know the complete story. Woodie may catch a hammer upside the ole noggin', but I'm sure it's happened before. Either one is going to get a ear full of cuss and Elvis tunes, LOL.
> 
> I'm not sure how much longer I'll be with Nissan but if I leave, I'll have to drive down and help ya wrench for a day or two. I Stihl need to check out Hoss's collection and maybe meet Eddie.



Yup, I'd tell Woodie you say fat Elvis your azz is out that door,LOL

If you ever want to meet Eddie, that can be arranged. May as well walk through the factory while we're hooking up with him. Sometime in the summer when things slow down we'll set it up. Should we take Woodie, maybe the factory can install some sense in that head, naaaa, not that much automation in this world,LOL


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Erick said:


> (in my best Starkist Tuna voice)
> 
> *"Sorry Tommie"*




Haha, sorry forwhat, I'm glad someone helped him, 1.6ci was getting old,haha


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> 2000, the reason is simple. No one likes to see shoddy workmanship defended on a brand with a premium reputation. Simple as that. It's disgusting. It makes consumers feel they've had one put over on them.
> 
> Had the defenders responded like Spike did in regards to problems that he's seen, that is, balanced and not making excuses and not running around after red herrings, this thread would have died a long time ago. If you'll notice, I quit stating the obvious way back in this thread, because it's obviously not helping anything. I do admit to losing a little bit of respect for several members here.
> 
> And that's all I'm going to say. May this thread die.



Not yet it isn't. What did I say last nite that you was pointing out I was somehow losing my good humor, I never found it Space??


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> 2000, the reason is simple. No one likes to see shoddy workmanship defended on a brand with a premium reputation. Simple as that. It's disgusting. It makes consumers feel they've had one put over on them.
> 
> Had the defenders responded like spike did in regards to problems that he's seen, that is, balanced and not making excuses and not running around after red herrings, this thread would have died a long time ago. If you'll notice, i quit stating the obvious way back in this thread, because it's obviously not helping anything. I do admit to losing a little bit of respect for several members here.
> 
> And that's all i'm going to say. May this thread die.



+100000000000000000000000000000000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

spacemule said:


> 2000, the reason is simple. No one likes to see shoddy workmanship defended on a brand with a premium reputation. Simple as that. It's disgusting. It makes consumers feel they've had one put over on them.
> 
> Had the defenders responded like Spike did in regards to problems that he's seen, that is, balanced and not making excuses and not running around after red herrings, this thread would have died a long time ago. If you'll notice, I quit stating the obvious way back in this thread, because it's obviously not helping anything. I do admit to losing a little bit of respect for several members here.
> 
> And that's all I'm going to say. May this thread die.



You may be correct and everyone mentioned their thoughts and ideas. Just remember when there is a bashin', you will get a reaction. Now I want to know who you lost alittle respect for?


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Yup, I'd tell Woodie you say fat Elvis your azz is out that door,LOL
> 
> If you ever want to meet Eddie, that can be arranged. May as well walk through the factory while we're hooking up with him. Sometime in the summer when things slow down we'll set it up. Should we take Woodie, maybe the factory can install some sense in that head, naaaa, not that much automation in this world,LOL



Hey, now we are talkin'. A tour of the VA beach plant wood be kool! Leave woodie at home with booker and parris, no need to break their date up. Stihl would need help from NASA to get their IQ levels past 1 digit.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

parrisw said:


> Yes please, let it go, let it go, let it go. Kumbaya, my friend.



So you wanna do this thread like safe sex and pull out, ok, lets have a roll call, who wants to let it go and if so once you go you stay gone. That means those who stay don't talk behind the backs of those who choose to go, DEAL? Those that stay and do talk about the ones gone give up all respect on this site and are considered slimy whores, Deal?

You in Parris? Space? 2k? Woodie? Fast? Booker? Brad? Indian?, who else?

I'm outta here.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Hey, now we are talkin'. A tour of the VA beach plant wood be kool! Leave woodie at home with booker and parris, no need to break their date up. Stihl would need help from NASA to get their IQ levels past 1 digit.



Thats for another thread, I just opened the gate on this one if all is willing,


----------



## blsnelling (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So you wanna do this thread like safe sex and pull out, ok, lets have a roll call, who wants to let it go and if so once you go you stay gone. That means those who stay don't talk behind the backs of those who choose to go, DEAL? Those that stay and do talk about the ones gone give up all respect on this site and are considered slimy whores, Deal?
> 
> You in Parris? Space? 2k? Woodie? Fast? Booker? Brad? Indian?, who else?
> 
> I'm outta here.



Lead the way oh king. I'm right behind ya. It's been funopcorn:


----------



## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So you wanna do this thread like safe sex and pull out, ok, lets have a roll call, who wants to let it go and if so once you go you stay gone. That means those who stay don't talk behind the backs of those who choose to go, DEAL? Those that stay and do talk about the ones gone give up all respect on this site and are considered slimy whores, Deal?
> 
> You in Parris? Space? 2k? Woodie? Fast? Booker? Brad? Indian?, who else?
> 
> I'm outta here.



Hell NO....I was just gettin warmed up Champ....Now where ya think ur gonna be going? 

I've gotsa some more torment for ya fella! :check:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Lead the way oh king. I'm right behind ya. It's been funopcorn:



Brad, me , walking out talking smack,haha. Yaw coming or what, no more action in here.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 11, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Hell NO....I was just gettin warmed up Champ....Now where ya think ur gonna be going?
> 
> I've gotsa some more torment for ya fella! :check:



Ok, your staying, talk about me behind my back your a slimy whore,LOL


----------



## 2000ssm6 (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So you wanna do this thread like safe sex and pull out, ok, lets have a roll call, who wants to let it go and if so once you go you stay gone. That means those who stay don't talk behind the backs of those who choose to go, DEAL? Those that stay and do talk about the ones gone give up all respect on this site and are considered slimy whores, Deal?
> 
> You in Parris? Space? 2k? Woodie? Fast? Booker? Brad? Indian?, who else?
> 
> I'm outta here.



Yup, said it a few pages back, really out this time. Later Ya'll


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Just remember when there is a bashin', you will get a reaction.



Yeah...there was a 'reaction' all right.

And I'm afraid it hasn't ended well for you 'reactors.'


.


----------



## ropensaddle (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, said it a few pages back, really out this time. Later Ya'll



Bye stihl sucks lol


----------



## Woodie (May 11, 2009)

2000ssm6 said:


> Yup, said it a few pages back, really out this time. Later Ya'll




HEY!! I haven't dismissed you yet!

.


----------



## edisto (May 11, 2009)

Dearly bereaved:

We gather here today to bid farewell to one of the longest, most frustrating threads that has ever sprung from the normally informative and entertaining bowels of AS.

Although the thread lasted only a few days, it managed to generate heretofore unseen levels of resentment, denial, viciousness, and an unprecendented amount of flag waving. Never before has such an army of strawmen been assembled, and slaughtered in such a short period of time. 

Although all were in agreement that the cylinder in question appeared as though constructed from smeltered Bud Light cans by an arthritic schizophrenic in the midst of a grand mal seizure, the meaning behind the appearance of such a horribly disfigured totem was the source of much confusion, weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

At the outset, the Swedes and their allies reveled that the chainsaw gods had seen fit to bring forth such a powerful symbol of their long-known, but widely doubted virtue. The celebration was vibrant, but brief, as the wielders of the noble orange saws have good hearts, but short attention spans.

In the lull following the celebration a maelstrom of confusion settled on the thread, with semantic points, legal issues, non sequiters, boxstore justifications, and outright evasion swarming into a perfect storm cloud of confusion. But just when the storm was at its darkest...heros emerged.

These heros stood proud amongst the aluminum rubble, the shattered ideals, and the butchered grammar, to loudly proclaim: I'm proud to own a Stihl...and that cylinder, and all others of its ilk do not represent the Stihl that I am proud to own. It was then, and only then, that Andreas Stihl stopped spinning in his grave, and once again rested comfortably, knowing that there stihl existed standard bearers for all that he had fought for.

In its short life, this thread has brought us sorrow, and joy. It has brought some closer together, and pushed many farther apart. It spawned serious discussion, light-hearted discussion, and light-footed discussion that would have made Ginger Rogers drop Fred Astair like a seized Wild Thing. Let us honor all that this thread has brought us....by never speaking of it again.


----------



## Fastcast (May 11, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> Ok, your staying, talk about me behind my back your a slimy whore,LOL



Don't worry old Champ....I won't do that to ya but if ya must go....Ya know that door ya came in? Same damn door ya go out!


----------



## parrisw (May 12, 2009)

THALL10326 said:


> So you wanna do this thread like safe sex and pull out, ok, lets have a roll call, who wants to let it go and if so once you go you stay gone. That means those who stay don't talk behind the backs of those who choose to go, DEAL? Those that stay and do talk about the ones gone give up all respect on this site and are considered slimy whores, Deal?
> 
> You in Parris? Space? 2k? Woodie? Fast? Booker? Brad? Indian?, who else?
> 
> I'm outta here.



Sure thing EL-Capitan. I'm outa here. tell next time, you whore. and your little biatch 2K



THALL10326 said:


> Thats for another thread, I just opened the gate on this one if all is willing,



now you gone and done it. With the VA tour.


----------



## Jtheo (May 12, 2009)

spacemule said:


> 2000, the reason is simple. No one likes to see shoddy workmanship defended on a brand with a premium reputation. Simple as that. It's disgusting. It makes consumers feel they've had one put over on them.
> 
> Had the defenders responded like Spike did in regards to problems that he's seen, that is, balanced and not making excuses and not running around after red herrings, this thread would have died a long time ago. If you'll notice, I quit stating the obvious way back in this thread, because it's obviously not helping anything. I do admit to losing a little bit of respect for several members here.
> 
> And that's all I'm going to say. May this thread die.



I just paid more than $600 for a new 361 and now I see STIHL stamped on the base of the cylinder, not Mahle.

I do feel like I have been had. Betrayed really, and I have read nothing here that would encourage me about the warranty either.

But I am a big boy. I can handle it. I just will never trust Stihl again.


----------



## bcorradi (May 12, 2009)

Ok I know this thread has concluded, but before it ends I think Brad needs to summarize what he has learned or anyone else reading this thread should have learned. Here is what I learned and I'm open to criticism.

1) The cylinder posted is not a good cylinder. 
2) All Stihl homeowner saws are a POS. According to Brad and he says there are better options out there. However, I know many people out there that cut more wood than Brad does in a year with a so called "Homeowner" inferior saws than Brad does, and they get along just fine. 
3) A few of the Husky homeowner saws are a POS. I can't personally attest to that, but Spike's comments on his own line of saws should be commended. 
4) We really still have not yet determined the source of the cylinder...is it a Mahle cylinder? Are there Mahle cylinders out there that are defective?
5) There are a lot of people posting on the thead that have minimal experience with saws and tearing down of saws. Woodie this includes you 
6) Don't insult THall's mother.
7) Weimedog knows a lot about casting and could probably teach us a bunch. 
8) There is a bunch of potential liability involved with modding saws no matter if the saw builders on here want to acknowledge that or not imo. Like I said in a previous post if your comfortable with that ...ok....but I just want to note a word of caution on my part. 
9) There were a bunch of personal attacks on this thread that were probably good hearted at first, but got a little out of hand. 
10) No matter how much we think we know, Husky, Stihl, and Dolmar, their teams know a lot more about building saws then we will ever know. 
11) There is a bunch of knowledgeable people on AS that aren't participating in this thread that I wish that would.
12) Spacemule still likes to stir the pot...he has done that ever since I've been a member of AS. 
13) Fastcast loves his Macs, but to his betterment, he acknowledges that the odds aren't in your favor financially if your writing mac sw. 

This is all for now, but I'm sure I can drum up some more......


----------



## bcorradi (May 12, 2009)

Jerry - I would use the 30 day return policy...i don't think your going to ever be happy thinking that saw may have an inferior cylinder so I would bring it back and buy another saw your more comfortable with.


----------



## bcorradi (May 12, 2009)

However on the other hand I can show you a picture of an MS361 (with just a stihl stamped cylinder) that I know has never been maintained, but held up just fine for 1.5 years on a non native clearing crew in washington.


----------



## bookerdog (May 12, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Ok I know this thread has concluded, but before it ends I think Brad needs to summarize what he has learned or anyone else reading this thread should have learned. Here is what I learned and I'm open to criticism.
> 
> 1) The cylinder posted is not a good cylinder.
> 2) All Stihl homeowner saws are a POS. According to Brad and he says there are better options out there. However, I know many people out there that cut more wood than Brad does in a year with a so called "Homeowner" inferior saws than Brad does, and they get along just fine.
> ...


----------



## bcorradi (May 12, 2009)

bookerdog said:


>


Expand please...am I wrong? Its pretty simplistic...if you don't agree with me put an 'F' after my statement...if you agree with me put a 'T'...


----------



## Fastcast (May 12, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> 13) Fastcast loves his Macs, but to his betterment, he acknowledges that the odds aren't in your favor financially if your writing mac sw.



Hey, I'm not an unreasonable man. 

With that said....If you're good, you're good....Write it and they will come.


----------



## peter399 (May 12, 2009)

So, do we now know how many of the 260 / 460 / 660 jugs that are ChiCom and how many that are Mahle after 92 pages of discussions ?


----------



## joatmon (May 12, 2009)

peter399 said:


> So, do we now know how many of the 260 / 460 / 660 jugs that are ChiCom and how many that are Mahle after 92 pages of discussions ?



Petey,

Yes, zero!


----------



## edisto (May 12, 2009)

Dr. Kevorkian...Dr. Jack Kevorkian...please report to the "Crappy Stihl Cylinder" thread.


----------



## HittinSteel (May 12, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> I'm no lawyer so I can't tell you the legalities of it (Maybe space can help out). However, I think it should be considered by the saw builders on this site to make sure they aren't liable if someone was to get hurt with a saw they modded. I'm not sure if this would involve the customer signing some kind of contract or what it would take.
> 
> A good friend of mine used to mod a lot of his logging customer's saws along with a bunch of other race saws for people around the US he knew personally. After talking to his lawyer and finding out the potential liability he could potentially face if someone was to get hurt running one of his saws he gave up modding other people's saws completely.
> 
> I'm not trying to scare saw builders, but I"m just trying to put a word of caution out there. My buddy didn't feel it was worth the miniscule financial gain he attained from modding saws vs the potential of him and his wife losing a significant portion of what they worked their whole life over a frivilous lawsuit.




Very good advice here for all builders.


----------



## kgreer (May 12, 2009)

*chiCom junk*

I hate to burst your bubble, but you will be hard pressed to find many American companies now that aren't outsourcing their stuff to China. It really sucks, but shouldn't be that big of a surprise.


----------



## joatmon (May 12, 2009)

kgreer said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but you will be hard pressed to find many American companies now that aren't outsourcing their stuff to China. It really sucks, but shouldn't be that big of a surprise.



KG,

I won't burst your bubble, but if you read this thread, your bubble will be burst.

Stayin' in the bubble?

joat


----------



## edisto (May 12, 2009)

edisto said:


> Dr. Kevorkian...Dr. Jack Kevorkian...please report to the "Crappy Stihl Cylinder" thread.



Dr. Joat...it seems we are unable to locate Dr. Kevorkian.

Do you know of his whereabouts? 

If he is unavailable, do you feel qualified to perform thread euthanasia?


----------



## joatmon (May 12, 2009)

edisto said:


> Dr. Joat...it seems we are unable to locate Dr. Kevorkian.
> 
> Do you know of his whereabouts?
> 
> If he is unavailable, do you feel qualified to perform thread euthanasia?



Ed,

Last I heard, he was staking out your place. I have killed many threads, but this one is beyond my pay grade.

Be careful out there,

joat


----------



## edisto (May 12, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Ed,
> 
> Last I heard, he was staking out your place. I have killed many threads, but this one is beyond my pay grade.
> 
> ...



If I told him once, I told him a thousand times. Putting me out of other people's misery does NOT qualify as euthanasia.


----------



## joatmon (May 12, 2009)

edisto said:


> If I told him once, I told him a thousand times. Putting me out of other people's misery does NOT qualify as euthanasia.



Ed,

Sorry! Due to his parole restrictions, this is what he is left to do.

As always,

joat


----------



## Jtheo (May 12, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Ok I know this thread has concluded, but before it ends I think Brad needs to summarize what he has learned or anyone else reading this thread should have learned. Here is what I learned and I'm open to criticism.
> 
> 1) The cylinder posted is not a good cylinder.
> 2) All Stihl homeowner saws are a POS. According to Brad and he says there are better options out there. However, I know many people out there that cut more wood than Brad does in a year with a so called "Homeowner" inferior saws than Brad does, and they get along just fine.
> ...



Very well said.:agree2:


----------



## AZLOGGER (May 12, 2009)

kgreer said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but you will be hard pressed to find many American companies now that aren't outsourcing their stuff to China. It really sucks, but shouldn't be that big of a surprise.



I know what you mean, hell I have to to go change out the 2nd cooler water pump within a week now. Just try to find a cooler water pump anywhere that is not made in China! Sorry :censored: POS


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

im back and i figured id jump in on this because it shows "quality workmanship"


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## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

ya know i bet my Wildthing has a better cylinder


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

hmm i better get a picture out to compare


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

hmm the new Stihl???????


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

thats better


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

this thread has a crowd of mimes... nobody is talkin? wow im impressed!!!! speech is allowed guys!!!


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

are you guys too afraid to type?????


----------



## stihlboy (May 12, 2009)

oh well night guys im off to have nightmares about zama cylinders


----------



## ropensaddle (May 13, 2009)

stihlboy said:


> thats better



:hmm3grin2orange: ahhhhhhohhhhhhh incoming lol @@@$$$%%%%!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## danrclem (May 13, 2009)

I don't know how many Stihl dealers are on this site but how many of you would put Brad's cylinder on you counter and proudly tell your customers that this is what you may be getting on your saw. I'm guessing that the answer would be none. You probably wouldn't want them to get a glimpse of that cylinder.

How many Stihl dealers knew that these cylinders were inferior but continued to sell them for the sake of profit?

How many of you will go out after this thread to buy a Stihl saw and not check to see which cylinder it has on it?

Stihl dealers owe it to their customers to try and do something about this.


----------



## edisto (May 13, 2009)




----------



## Taxmantoo (May 13, 2009)

stihlboy said:


> ya know i bet my Wildthing has a better cylinder



Is no plating better than plating with a chip in it?


----------



## striperswaper (May 13, 2009)

I sent an email to Stihl USA suggesting they check this thread to see how they are getting bashed all over North America and respond.
wonder if they will?


----------



## maico490 (May 13, 2009)

edisto said:


>



Finally some British humour added to a thread that has mushroomed beyond any mere mortal's chance of following!


----------



## Erick (May 13, 2009)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5zey8567bcg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5zey8567bcg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## ZeroJunk (May 13, 2009)

This is fun. I don't know good #### from apple butter. But, I put an aftermarket P&C in an 066 and the ports looked like crap. But, it runs like a bat out of hell.


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## stihlboy (May 13, 2009)

taxmantoo said:


> Is no plating better than plating with a chip in it?



atleast it has good ports and runs well


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## Erick (May 13, 2009)

*For the Record*



Erick said:


> bcorradi said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity...if this cylinder was a new "Mahle" would this thread have taken a different course?
> ...




For the record Brad.... 2 posts. 

That post generated 2 responses  of course it only generated 47 replies the first time I posted it *-->HERE<--* a year ago, and I think half of those were mine.


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## ropensaddle (May 13, 2009)

maico490 said:


> Finally some British humour added to a thread that has mushroomed beyond any mere mortal's chance of following!



Neek neek neek 








neek neek lmao!


----------



## dingeryote (May 13, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Neek neek neek
> 
> 
> 
> ...




RUN AWAAAAAAYYYY!!


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## stihlboy (May 13, 2009)

you all need to realize that piece was poor workmanship and it really is not up to the stihl reputation as far as quality goes


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## edisto (May 13, 2009)

maico490 said:


> Finally some British humour added to a thread that has mushroomed beyond any mere mortal's chance of following!



Do you mean you missed post#1028?

(page 69)


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## stihlboy (May 13, 2009)

hey my 1959 sears cylinder looks better than the new shihl onesopcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## bcorradi (May 14, 2009)

Fastcast said:


> Hey, I'm not an unreasonable man.
> 
> With that said....If you're good, you're good....Write it and they will come.


----------



## teacherman (May 14, 2009)

This thread speaks to the nature of the human condition. A strong parallel can be drawn to the stock market and its bandwagon mood swings, driven as it were by emotion and brain hormones...........

It's a chainsaw. It is used to cut wood. Nothing more, nothing less. That said, if that cylinder were mine, and I had removed it for modding, I would have contacted Stihl and asked them a few questions, but I would have done so politely and respectfully, understanding that they know a heck of a lot more about building saws than I.

I would not have posted an inflammatory thread, knowing full well that many would be foaming at the mouth, indignantly tearing apart perfectly good chainsaws, demanding "answers" to questions that have more to do with their own covetous nature than anything chainsaw-related. And yes, I am guilty of this as well. (the covetous nature, that is...... I have not torn any saws apart looking for substandard jugs)

Can I get a Amen?


----------



## wigglesworth (May 14, 2009)

> This thread speaks to the nature of the human condition. A strong parallel can be drawn to the stock market and its bandwagon mood swings, driven as it were by emotion and brain hormones...........
> 
> It's a chainsaw. It is used to cut wood. Nothing more, nothing less. That said, if that cylinder were mine, and I had removed it for modding, I would have contacted Stihl and asked them a few questions, but I would have done so politely and respectfully, understanding that they know a heck of a lot more about building saws than I.
> 
> ...




I agree. This thread is crazy with each post fanning the flames. Now there is another post started heading the same direction. Kinda like a hemmoroid, it just wont go away and keeps on burning. 



> Is no plating better than plating with a chip in it?



Actually, I have a poulan 3400 with an unplated cylinder and it has held up quite well. 



> hey my 1959 sears cylinder looks better than the new shihl ones



I have a 60's poulan that would love for its cylinder to look as good as the first one posted, and its 50 years old and still going strong.


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## edisto (May 14, 2009)

teacherman said:


> I would not have posted an inflammatory thread, knowing full well that many would be foaming at the mouth, indignantly tearing apart perfectly good chainsaws, demanding "answers" to questions that have more to do with their own covetous nature than anything chainsaw-related. And yes, I am guilty of this as well. (the covetous nature, that is...... I have not torn any saws apart looking for substandard jugs)



It's an internet forum, not parliamentary proceedings. In fact, it is just a thread on an internet forum...no need to tiptoe. As many of the Stihl defenders said, it isn't going to shut down any factories.

If Brad has used the same wording to describe a cylinder from some knockoff, no-one would have taken offense to the way it was worded. If people got their feelings hurt, it was because they weren't being objective. 

If anyone was surprised by the Husky dogpile, they haven't been paying much attention to the forum...but I will say (and said earlier) that seeing flaws like that takes the fun out of any brand bashing for me.


----------



## ropensaddle (May 14, 2009)

teacherman said:


> This thread speaks to the nature of the human condition. A strong parallel can be drawn to the stock market and its bandwagon mood swings, driven as it were by emotion and brain hormones...........
> 
> It's a chainsaw. It is used to cut wood. Nothing more, nothing less. That said, if that cylinder were mine, and I had removed it for modding, I would have contacted Stihl and asked them a few questions, but I would have done so politely and respectfully, understanding that they know a heck of a lot more about building saws than I.
> 
> ...



What do you mean just a chainsaw bs, weve all heard of the cancer curing bs of this maker some of us know the truth of the hippie caps and choke switch gadgets which I have and still do poke fun about. However I have heard of the supposedly substandard bb kits and I am sorry but I bought one from bailey,s been using it hard and most don't know what hard is for almost a year but will admit the ice storm for the last three months was its biggest workout it worked fine. This cylinder looked better than the one in this post and the oem cylinder I took off my mooded one looked perfect after many thousands of hours hard work. Hard is; not cutting a little firewood then splitting it is cutting all day never shutting down except at lunch and end of 12 to 16 hour days and my saws all see this treatment regularly if I am lucky to have work. The new 200 t I bought six months ago looks like some of the posters five year old saws


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## ropensaddle (May 14, 2009)

stihlboy said:


> hey my 1959 sears cylinder looks better than the new shihl onesopcorn:opcorn:opcorn:



Wonder when your going to change that name my 1975 2101 looks better than any of your cylinders lol!


----------



## kgreer (May 15, 2009)

*chicom junk check this out!!*

Hey, check out this link. Stihl has a whole factory in China. I'm telling you, everyon is doing this. There isn't a company left in America that doesn't outsource there stuff to other countries
http://www.stihl.com/isapi/default.asp?contenturl=/unternehmen/presse/tagespresse/499.htm 
Most companies would be out of business if they didn't do this to keep up with their competition. Sad but true


----------



## wood4heat (May 15, 2009)

So I'm late to this party but still interested. Has anyone figured out if this cylinder was made in a separate factory and if so is there a way to identify where a cylinder was made without taking it off?


----------



## edisto (May 15, 2009)

wood4heat said:


> So I'm late to this party but still interested. Has anyone figured out if this cylinder was made in a separate factory and if so is there a way to identify where a cylinder was made without taking it off?



Go to the first page and look at the pics of the cooling fins...won't tell you where it was made, but it will tell you how it was made.


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## stdydub (May 15, 2009)

i've made made over a million master cylinders for toyota vehicles and it kills me to think ppl make a big deal over the casting issues on that saw...u should see what casting issues toyota passes...i think they also have a good reputation


----------



## edisto (May 15, 2009)

stdydub said:


> i've made made over a million master cylinders for toyota vehicles and it kills me to think ppl make a big deal over the casting issues on that saw...u should see what casting issues toyota passes...i think they also have a good reputation



Do you pump your brakes 12,000 times a minute?


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## ropensaddle (May 15, 2009)

edisto said:


> Do you pump your brakes 12,000 times a minute?



Depends on traffic dern slow pokes blow chunks lol


----------



## bcorradi (May 16, 2009)

edisto said:


> Do you pump your brakes 12,000 times a minute?


Good Point.

However to use one of your strategies...I think he meant to say there a lot of people on this thread that are making a big issue out of a flawed chainsaw cylinder. These same people are potentially running (*** equipment, recreation vehicles, automobiles, etc.) that have poorer quality parts that they don't even know about. Does your vehicle have a more defective master cylinder than the chainsaw cylinder depicted in this thread? The majority of people commenting on this thread negatively regarding the brand as a whole, have never seen the inside of their saw cylinder, let alone the inside of their master cylinder. 

Are you more comfortable with a saw launching in your hand at 12k rpm or a vehicle that blows a master cylinder while your making an abrupt stop on the interstate with you and your family in it?

Eventhough you may be semi new to AS, there have been many people that like to pile on and blow things way out of proportion eventhough they have little to no technical background with the topic being discussed. However, if you want to seperate yourself from being a brand basher/piler, step back and absorb the knowledge of many of the knowledgeable members on AS. 

Everyone on AS is a consumer. With regards to saws, we would all benefit if the playing field amongst saws brands were even. What I mean by a level playing field is dealer network, quality of saws, marketing, etc. We all know it isn't even, but we would all benefit if it was.


----------



## stihlboy (May 16, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Good Point.
> 
> However to use one of your strategies...I think he meant to say there a lot of people on this thread that are making a big issue out of a flawed chainsaw cylinder. These same people are potentially running (*** equipment, recreation vehicles, automobiles, etc.) that have poorer quality parts that they don't even know about. Does your vehicle have a more defective master cylinder than the chainsaw cylinder depicted in this thread? The majority of people commenting on this thread negatively regarding the brand as a whole, have never seen the inside of their saw cylinder, let alone the inside of their master cylinder.
> 
> ...



i'd be more comfortable with the car because you can steer it or there is always reverse..... personal experience with cars that have no brakes make this possible


----------



## ropensaddle (May 16, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Good Point.
> 
> However to use one of your strategies...I think he meant to say there a lot of people on this thread that are making a big issue out of a flawed chainsaw cylinder. These same people are potentially running (*** equipment, recreation vehicles, automobiles, etc.) that have poorer quality parts that they don't even know about. Does your vehicle have a more defective master cylinder than the chainsaw cylinder depicted in this thread? The majority of people commenting on this thread negatively regarding the brand as a whole, have never seen the inside of their saw cylinder, let alone the inside of their master cylinder.
> 
> ...



I disagree I would not benefit if I thought my saw cured cancer but I do benefit from it being superior to the other brands husky kicks.


----------



## cjk (May 16, 2009)

Holy crap! 96 pages about a cyl on a saw that ran fine. 

I could understand if the saw didnt run well......

All company's are cutting costs. If it doesnt effect the function or longevity of the product whats the big deal?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 16, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Good Point.
> 
> However to use one of your strategies...I think he meant to say there a lot of people on this thread that are making a big issue out of a flawed chainsaw cylinder. These same people are potentially running (*** equipment, recreation vehicles, automobiles, etc.) that have poorer quality parts that they don't even know about. Does your vehicle have a more defective master cylinder than the chainsaw cylinder depicted in this thread? The majority of people commenting on this thread negatively regarding the brand as a whole, have never seen the inside of their saw cylinder, let alone the inside of their master cylinder.
> 
> ...





Great post sir...


----------



## edisto (May 16, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> However to use one of your strategies...I think he meant to say there a lot of people on this thread that are making a big issue out of a flawed chainsaw cylinder. These same people are potentially running (*** equipment, recreation vehicles, automobiles, etc.) that have poorer quality parts that they don't even know about. Does your vehicle have a more defective master cylinder than the chainsaw cylinder depicted in this thread? The majority of people commenting on this thread negatively regarding the brand as a whole, have never seen the inside of their saw cylinder, let alone the inside of their master cylinder.



One of my "strategies" is to try to get people focus on the issue. We are talking about the cylinder _in the pictures_ that is a piece of crap relative to _other Stihl cylinders_. Based on reports of others, it looks like it might be a trend and not an anomaly.

Does a reduction in quality by other companies make this cylinder better? No it doesn't. That's why I don't "curve" grades in the classes I teach. In a class full of retards, the smartest retard is not an A student. In a class full of geniuses, the poorest performer is not an F student.

Does a statement that Toyota makes bad master cylinders add anything to the discussion? No. It is another distraction, and an unsubstantiated distraction at that. Even with pictures, however, it still would be a distraction. This person made the master cylinders, and therefore was part of Toyota's quality control. Are you suggesting he was putting out dangerous products? If so, your issue is with him and not me.



bcorradi said:


> However, if you want to seperate yourself from being a brand basher/piler, step back and absorb the knowledge of many of the knowledgeable members on AS.



If you want to separate yourself from the blind supporters, take your own advice and read my posts on this thread before labeling me as a basher/piler. I do have fun with Stihl owners (and Chevy owners) on other threads, but it is just that...fun. It continues to be fun if the level of quality is the same. As I've stated numerous times in this thread, it isn't fun here, it is just sad. My posts are based on disappointment, not brand fidelity. If you can't tell the difference, then I can't help you understand.


----------



## FATGUY (May 16, 2009)

*industry trend*

One of the things that Stihl bashers don't understand is, if Stihl continues to produce sub-standard saw components, and they continue to get away with it, the other brands will follow suit.


----------



## ropensaddle (May 16, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> One of the things that Stihl bashers don't understand is, if Stihl continues to produce sub-standard saw components, and they continue to get away with it, the other brands will follow suit.



That would indeed be bad so far have not seen it on xp's time will tell all. Someone needs to keep pros happy to heck with homeowners their cheap butts need to hire tree service's imho.


----------



## stihl sawing (May 16, 2009)

Good grief, Is this still being argued over. The same things are being said over and over. Sure it's not the best looking cylinder but our arguing is not going to change it.

So now i am going to pull a Plant biologist, when a thread gets out of hand,

I LIKE CAKE


----------



## edisto (May 16, 2009)

FATGUY said:


> One of the things that Stihl bashers don't understand is, if Stihl continues to produce sub-standard saw components, and they continue to get away with it, the other brands will follow suit.



Another excellent point by the big guy. 

But, it isn't the Stihl bashers that are going to let them get away with it.


----------



## FATGUY (May 16, 2009)

Exactly. It'll be the My Brand Right or Wrong gang....


----------



## wigglesworth (May 16, 2009)

hmmmm.....still going huh? So what would it take to put a nail in this threads coffin??


----------



## edisto (May 16, 2009)

wigglesworth said:


> hmmmm.....still going huh? So what would it take to put a nail in this threads coffin??



I tried a eulogy 4 pages (68 posts) earlier, but to no avail.

If only Dr. Kevorkian would return my calls...


----------



## Sawdustmaker (May 16, 2009)

Help please, i am lost. i am looking for a place to post pics of a new cylinder that i have that may be of interest to some of y'all...


----------



## Sawdustmaker (May 16, 2009)

I did not pull this of a saw because of perinoia.

I just got this in the mail. note the chamfering.

can you guess what it is?


----------



## Erick (May 16, 2009)

sawdustmaker said:


> i did not pull this of a saw because of perinoia.
> 
> I just got this in the mail. Note the chamfering.
> 
> Can you guess what it is?



bbb


----------



## Adirondack (May 16, 2009)

edisto said:


> Does a reduction in quality by other companies make this cylinder better? No it doesn't. That's why I don't "curve" grades in the classes I teach. In a class full of retards, the smartest retard is not an A student. In a class full of geniuses, the poorest performer is not an F student.



Man, You made my day. That was very funny. uttahere:


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## weimedog (May 16, 2009)

To those who attempt to compare Brake Master Cylinder castings to high performance two stroke cylinder castings miss the main point here. That comparison is just BS. The application is radically different & therefor so are the finish part requirements. Automotive parts have more space and can get away with more weight as the platform they ride around in is much larger. Also the customer isn't as likely to feel or even see the difference in a heavier casting with more material to add a "saftey" cushion in the performance parameters of that part. SO the casting designs and resultant manufacturing processes typically ballance the application with more size and weight to offset the potential variations in manufacturing. It works. Cars are reliable. Same with so many other automotive related parts EVEN though weight and fuel efficiency is becoming a larger priority, still nothing close to saws....a MUCH closer analogy to these Stihls would be racing motorcycles. That type of part could kill a season of sales if it turned up in something like a KTM or Honda motocross bike during a magazine test. Things like that HAVE for the same reasons. If this is a new norm, it could impact sales for Stihl with the performance oriented customer. (Pro's and performance addicts alike). Cut & Dried. No argument guys..thats the way it is. Does Stihl care? Thats another matter and another entire discussion. I have no idea.

SO...Performance two strokes are a completely different apllication than automotive apps with a completely different set of tolerances. Market driven weight, fit and finish, and performance standards are higher as performance relative to both weight and space are more of an issue with saws. In addition, the performance of a two stroke is effected by the location and accuracy of ports in those cylinders. And my friends..THATS the issue here. How many times do we read posts about how much a particular saw weighs and how fast they cut relative to other brands? You can't even count the postings..

With those castings posted in the begining of this eternally long thread, the ports & finish was terrible AS COMPARED to what is expected relative to OTHER high performance two stroke engine's be it saws or motorcycles. If this was a lower cost saw, no one would care. The expectation level for Poulan's and both the performance and consistency of performance from one saw to the next isn't that great...but a priemium priced saw is a different matter.

With a Pro level saw, the performance, reliability under stress, and power to weight ratio's ARE why the extra bucks are spent. A performance level from one saw to the next IS expected to be about the same, so when a pro or builder see's that type of quality in the fundemental part of a high performance saw that radically effects its ability to perform...its a big problem! If over time this plays out to a quality and performance reduction relative to the past; the brand will suffer reguardless of what happens here at AS.

So I don't care how this is thrashed and hashed...wheather your a Stihl person or Kawasaki person, Husqvarna..or Husqvarna(Motorcycle) person who understands performance and has seen a lot of Cylinders..those pictures are disturbing. (but all brands do have there "lemons'' so this ONE pic isn't the end of the world!)

IF Stihl & raw statisical/imperical real life data can keep those who are watching this (and a typical customer) convinced that lousy finish in and around the ports along with the obvious porosity of those castings is an exception not the norm, life goes along happily. If not, Stihl has a marketing issue that will grow and eventually impact sales. AND its not just this thread..we all sometimes assume we here are the only ones privy to this stuff. Trust me, many more than appear here understand what a lousy casting is and poor fit and finish in cylnder ports will do to performance..and many more than post here take apart saws...and if over a period of time these type of casting ARE the norm, that will become conventional wisdom about the brand JUST as it did when Stihl had better than average parts and performance.

It KILLS me to watch those who understand all this and the relative impact these type of castings & resultant port variance issues have; attempt to bluster thru the real heart of the issue as if they don't agree after all the years they have spent building the mythology of Stihls quality & performance.

Just because this may be the new norm for a particular brand, that doesn't make it all good.....and certainly makes it harder to spend those extra bucks vs. competition.

I'm Stihl betting that one was a fluke not the norm..even with a Sthl "in house" vs. contracted out Malhe casting difference.


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## joatmon (May 16, 2009)

edisto said:


> I tried a eulogy 4 pages (68 posts) earlier, but to no avail.
> 
> If only Dr. Kevorkian would return my calls...



Ed,

Just pray you "significant other" doesn't call Dr. K. Let your "significant other" that dr. joat is close and available for a small fee.

I'll negotiate for that 076 in lieu of fee at the funeral,

dr. joat


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## edisto (May 16, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Ed,
> 
> Just pray you "significant other" doesn't call Dr. K. Let your "significant other" that dr. joat is close and available for a small fee.
> 
> ...



Sorry Joat...it wouldn't work out. She's a bit of a "do it yourself"er herself.

She also shares my appreciation for quality, so you probably wouldn't make her list if she was looking for a professional.


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## joatmon (May 16, 2009)

edisto said:


> Sorry Joat...it wouldn't work out. She's a bit of a "do it yourself"er herself.
> 
> She also shares my appreciation for quality, so you probably wouldn't make her list if she was looking for a professional.



Ed,

10-4. It's so hard to establish yourself these days.

ole joat


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## bcorradi (May 17, 2009)

edisto said:


> One of my "strategies" is to try to get people focus on the issue. We are talking about the cylinder _in the pictures_ that is a piece of crap relative to _other Stihl cylinders_. Based on reports of others, it looks like it might be a trend and not an anomaly.
> 
> Does a reduction in quality by other companies make this cylinder better? No it doesn't. That's why I don't "curve" grades in the classes I teach. In a class full of retards, the smartest retard is not an A student. In a class full of geniuses, the poorest performer is not an F student.
> 
> ...



Does the comment, do you pump your brakes 12k per minute add anything of substance to the conversation? 

How do you acknowledge me as a blind supporter vs you being a blind supporter yourself? What more do you have to offer except minimal technical and scientific evidence that says the cylinder portrayed is detrimental to the performance of the product in question? Have I tore down more of the manufacturer's saws in question along with husqvarna saws then you have? I feel pretty confident saying yes....do you feel otherwise? 

What is the purpose of taking a picture of your saws in your signature line? Is it to drive home the fact that you and your wife appreciate high quality products? If so, I think you may be lacking the highest quality saws, even in the manufacturer's displacement levels you have represented. 

I get a kick out of your comment "It isn't fun here"...what are you referring to? It must be fun here for you, since you seem to frequent the site quite often throughout the day? 

How can you say the guy that says he is making the master cylinders for toyota is anymore unsubstantiated than your comments? At least he is involved in the manufacturing process ....what are you involved in the "criticism department"? 

I also like your comment....about the class full of retards...I have no idea what level of education you teach. However, if you do teach at the college level, I personally learned the most from a computer logics class that was graded on a curve that the average 'A' was a mid 50's or less percentile. I also think that if your teaching at a college level and you have a class full of retards, it may have to do with the quality of teaching of the teacher.


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## bcorradi (May 17, 2009)

SDM,

I think it is probably a mahle 44.7 mm 260 cylinder? Do I get the $10 Thall was offering in the other thread? 
Take care,
Brad


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## edisto (May 17, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> Does the comment, do you pump your brakes 12k per minute add anything of substance to the conversation?



The point of the comment was that the quality of Toyota's master cylinders doesn't add "anything of substance to the conversation", and certainly does not excuse a drop in quality without a drop in price.



bcorradi said:


> How do you acknowledge me as a blind supporter vs you being a blind supporter yourself?



I neither acknowledged you nor labelled you as a blind supporter. I stated that _if_ you read my posts on this thread, _and_ reached the conclusion that I'm here to rub the Stihl owner's noses in this mess, then you either have a reading comprehension issue, or you are missing the substance because of an unhealthy emotional involvement. At the time I assumed the latter was the more plausible option.

Let me make it perfectly clear: I always respected the quality of Stihl's chainsaws. What I have attempted to express is disappointment in what seems to be a decline in quality, and disappointment in those who would enable such a decline by choosing to ignore it.



bcorradi said:


> What more do you have to offer except minimal technical and scientific evidence that says the cylinder portrayed is detrimental to the performance of the product in question? Have I tore down more of the manufacturer's saws in question along with husqvarna saws then you have? I feel pretty confident saying yes....do you feel otherwise?



I would say you are absolutely right, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Is this what the majority of cylinders look like from all companies? Have Stihl cylinders always looked this way? I haven't had the opportunity to see as many of them as you have, but I have made a point of reading as much as I can find on how to improve them, both in terms of performance and durability. Maybe I'm reading the wrong things, but this:




sure looks like it would be hard on the rings. Does your experience tell you otherwise? Is this how you would finish a transfer? Is this how other companies do it? Is this how Stihl has always done it? If not, then there has been a reduction in quality.



bcorradi said:


> What is the purpose of taking a picture of your saws in your signature line? Is it to drive home the fact that you and your wife appreciate high quality products? If so, I think you may be lacking the highest quality saws, even in the manufacturer's displacement levels you have represented.



Not top of the line saws for sure, but they were the best I could afford. Given that you felt it necessary to follow Joat's lead and bring my wife into this, I'll point out that she is staying home with our 15 month old, so money is a little tight. The picture represents right around $600 total investment, and I went with used saws that I respected (except for the 141, which was sent to me by my dad when I told him the 61 was a little heavy for climbing) rather than something new that I didn't. The picture is there because I like my saws...I'm sorry that you don't.



bcorradi said:


> I get a kick out of your comment "It isn't fun here"...what are you referring to? It must be fun here for you, since you seem to frequent the site quite often throughout the day?



The full quote was: "I do have fun with Stihl owners (and Chevy owners) on other threads, but it is just that...fun. It continues to be fun if the level of quality is the same. As I've stated numerous times in this thread, it isn't fun here, it is just sad."

The statement was not well-written, so I will clarify for you. Making fun of Stihl is only fun because both Stihl and Husqvarna produce high-quality products. My involvement in this thread isn't to rub salt in any wounds, because those wounds are appearing to be real. So, the statement was intended to mean that saying "Stihl sucks" isn't any fun when it becomes true. 



bcorradi said:


> How can you say the guy that says he is making the master cylinders for toyota is anymore unsubstantiated than your comments? At least he is involved in the manufacturing process ....what are you involved in the "criticism department"?



The point that he appeared to be making was that this reduction in quality is acceptable because other companies are doing the same thing. That is a premise I reject.



bcorradi said:


> I also like your comment....about the class full of retards...I have no idea what level of education you teach. However, if you do teach at the college level, I personally learned the most from a computer logics class that was graded on a curve that the average 'A' was a mid 50's or less percentile.



"That's why I don't "curve" grades in the classes I teach."

Again, let me clarify for you, because it seems you have a problem interpreting my writing: I _don't_ curve grades in the classes I teach.




bcorradi said:


> I also think that if your teaching at a college level and you have a class full of retards, it may have to do with the quality of teaching of the teacher.



I would have to agree with you there. It seems you have great difficulty understanding what I write, and so at least part of the blame should fall on me.


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## edisto (May 17, 2009)

joatmon said:


> Ed,
> 
> 10-4. It's so hard to establish yourself these days.
> 
> ole joat



One of the few professions where it doesn't pay to advertise.


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## Sawdustmaker (May 17, 2009)

bcorradi said:


> SDM,
> 
> I think it is probably a mahle 44.7 mm 260 cylinder? Do I get the $10 Thall was offering in the other thread?
> Take care,
> Brad



dead right. i think it looks fine.... it is already on the saw.

$10??? i guess you need to ask tommie


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## Sawdustmaker (May 17, 2009)

edisto said:


> Maybe I'm reading the wrong things, but this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



uummm.. that never touches the piston let alone the rings....


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## edisto (May 17, 2009)

Sawdustmaker said:


> uummm.. that never touches the piston let alone the rings....



Hey...that is the bottom of the cylinder at the top! I need to label my pictures better...or learn to read.






Same problem, opposite end of the port.

I quoted David St. Hubbins before, so I'll do it again: "You shan't recover from this one."

That's what I get for recording in Dubbly.


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## weimedog (May 17, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> Nice casting ehh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Back to the beginning:

Couple of things to consider. Some roughness in the ports probably won't mean all that much, for that matter there was a theory many years ago turbulance at the boundary layer could actually help flow vs. having laminar flow at the boundary layer and the resultant shear...either way no big deal and an easy source of income to saw builders!

The porosity resulting in a porous spot in the combustion chamber can create "hot spots" making timing a biatch. A hot spot tends to produce pre-ignition under prolonged loadings as the temps rise inside the combustion chamber. Especially on air cooled designs. Thats a biggy for performance types and should be for pros. Thats a situation that should not find its way into a pro saw. Period. Can't fix them if they are too deep or removing metal reveals yet another random pourosity issue, and this makes an issue not even saw builders can fix...And those "Chips" at the edge....possible more issues? Were they created from the casting being tossed into a parts bin or from yet more porosity issues? I can't tell from the photo's.

The appearance of "core shift" like variations in the ports and the resultant missalignment causing the altering of port location & shapes and therefore port timing & flow characteristics can cause performance variations from saw to saw. A lot of builders simply can clean up nasty work like that and get performance increases...years ago it was called "blue printing" or simply bringing a component into the better side of design tolerances. A LARGER source of income for builders...bring those nasty castings to tolerance!

The result of those "core shifting" like issues created the "beveling" issue down stream, which might under certain cercumstances snag a ring over time. That particular sharp edge in of itself isn't the issue...you folks have to keep your eye on the ball. The issue is the poor dimensional consistancy from casting to casting, in some cases creating situations were that "sharp" edge where the beveling didn't happen occurs.

Bottom line? Porosity & Dimensional irregularities in a casting reaching a production pro level saw. This wasn't much of an issue for years with the better two stroke builders, including Stihl; and now some of this has reappeared on a premium priced pro level saw brand. Not right with the manufacturing technology available world wide today. Speaks to a much larger issue within Stihl, IF this is a trend...or it can be an anomoly and not a big issue at all! ..Take your pick. But trying to waste time rationalizing poor castings as being some how acceptable is ridiculous.


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## edisto (May 17, 2009)

Very nicely done Weimedog. I know you've covered many of these aspects before in different posts, but I think putting it all together like this is pretty helpful. At least for me.

The length of the thread is due to a lack of focus, and I'm one of the guilty parties....hopefully this will prevent future diversions.


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## Sawdustmaker (May 17, 2009)

Period.


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## HuskyPete (May 18, 2009)

blsnelling said:


> So much for Stihl quality ehh? Check out this crap I found in a brand new MS260! The piston is marked Mahle and looks good. The cylinder is only marked Stihl. What are they doing? Outsourcing this crap to China?! Sure looks like it. So much for bashing the BB kits and hold up Stihl as an example. At least Husky is stihl using Mahle cylinders on their pro saws that I've seen.
> 
> Finish of the transfers.
> 
> ...



Thought I'd add my 2 cents. Lot's of posts but everyone seems to acknowledge that quality has slipped. Everything is bottom line because no one wants to pay for quality. Look at the quality of after market P&C. Not too good. If you still want quality better buy a Husky while you can. Do we really have another 500 posts for this subject?:


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## Woodie (May 19, 2009)

Bump...

(  )


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## stihl sawing (May 19, 2009)

Woodie said:


> Bump...
> 
> (  )


LOL, Was gettin too quite...eh, or ya just tryin to smoke out THall.


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## Woodie (May 19, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> LOL, Was gettin too quite...eh, or ya just tryin to smoke out THall.



Nah...if I were tryin' to smoke out THALL, I'd just throw a match into the leather bar he 'patronizes'...


.


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## danrclem (May 20, 2009)

I knowd they couldn't hang with ya Woodie. They just ain't got it like you. The last I heard a couple of them they was whinin like little girls, wavin a white flag, calling a truce and runnin over the hill faster than General George Custer did at Little Bighorn.

WOODIE IS #1


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## howellhandmade (May 20, 2009)

Just curious, anybody taken pics of a 441 cylinder yet?


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## Meadow Beaver (May 20, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I heard Jasha said he got 89% cut time gain with a 441.


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## teacherman (May 20, 2009)

*Nice Kimono....*

I think my 084s just increased in value, as well as the NWOB MS440. I'll wait a couple of years, I think.


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## stihlboy (Dec 28, 2009)

Bump!!!


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## Wild Knight (Jan 10, 2010)

howellhandmade said:


> Just curious, anybody taken pics of a 441 cylinder yet?



Yup. I will post them in a build later. Ports are ok, much clean-up work to be done. Base was not square with the bore. Big problem was the cylinder was not chromed all the way to the top. It limited how much of a pop-up we could run. 

Corners were definitely cut for costs, but probably not anything that significantly affected a stock saws performance. It will do (did) what the engineers wanted it to do just fine.


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## zuuluu (Jan 14, 2010)

incredible... Ive never seen a cylinder that was that poor of quality. Its a stihl thow so what you expect lolz. Its called husky my friend. Get one!


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## retired redneck (Jan 14, 2010)

Buy ECHO you won't find any ChiCom after market parts for them........


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## Freehand (Jan 14, 2010)

Trolls.


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## retired redneck (Jan 14, 2010)

HA HA HA i knew that would wake up the stihl heads


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## stihlboy (Jan 14, 2010)

retired redneck said:


> Buy ECHO you won't find any ChiCom after market parts for them........



thats what the oem parts are 








:monkey:


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## jd548esco72 (Jan 15, 2010)

people wonder why i like the older saws?

well as the economy gets worse. corporate management will tighten up. one of the ways to improve the bottom line is dig all the parts out of the junk bin and make a saws , cars, washing-machines and what not out of them. 

sort of like Firestone back in the 90s. they went back and got the reject tires filled the split seems with glue and sold them for new tires. they improved the bottom line for a while--


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## porsche965 (Jan 20, 2010)

:agree2:


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