# got into some MORE wood!!!



## foursaps (Jul 31, 2010)

decided today was the day to take down a white oak and start milling it into beams for a sugar shack build i am doing. the final product will be 5"x7"x16'-6". (rough length i am milling is 17'-7"). only got one cut done today, didn't get the tree down till 10:30, and cutting it to length, and setting up was the tough part. i have never milled anything this long, so i took my time to set up properly and mark my beams out. 

on to the pics!!!

The tree: ~60' tall, 20" DBH white oak. 48' of straight trunk!!!







my log lift: i am not sure if i should be doing this or not, but it worked!!






set up, ready to go: 20' ladder on top, i have to get a better system to secure it to the tree.






finished the first cut: took ~15-20 minutes, 1 and 1/4 tanks of gas. you can also see the plan for milling drawn on the butt. 






nice grain! 






more to come tomorrow, i will be milling that and the one next to it into 5x7 beams!!


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## smokinj (Jul 31, 2010)

Nice!


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## BIG JAKE (Jul 31, 2010)

Very nice! Like the log lift too!


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## mtngun (Jul 31, 2010)

Sweet log. Thanks for the pics. 

I'm a little apprehensive about your non-heart-centered beams. When the shack is built, let us know if the beams stayed straight.


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## foursaps (Jul 31, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Sweet log. Thanks for the pics.
> 
> I'm a little apprehensive about your non-heart-centered beams. When the shack is built, let us know if the beams stayed straight.



i was thinking about that, too. i am not a sawyer, so i'm not sure how i should be laying them out. i always thought you used the heart as a starting point for your beams, am i wrong? any help would be great!! it's not to late to change things!!!


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## mtngun (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm not saying your way won't work, but this is a "safer" way. The problem with the safer way is that you aren't getting as many beams as you want. Maybe you can substitute several 2x's ? 





The pith is a weak spot, prone to crack and warp *if* it is on the edge of the board or beam. The perfect beam is centered around the pith. 

I'm hoping one of the more experienced sawyers like Deeker or Backwoods will chime in, they do this all the time and know a lot more about it than I do.


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## deeker (Jul 31, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I'm not saying your way won't work, but this is a "safer" way. The problem with the safer way is that you aren't getting as many beams as you want. Maybe you can substitute several 2x's ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would enjoy working with you and your CSM, you would teach me a lot.

You are very correct with the blue markings you made. Center the pith, or you will hate what happens.

I will this coming week ( should have last week, go a bit sick ) be out to the desert to get some big ( for Utah ) juniper to make 6x6 timbers. I always center the pith. Or expect some strange things from the wood. Huge cracks and some strange warping can and usually does happen.

Good luck and keep the pics coming!!!

Kevin


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## foursaps (Aug 1, 2010)

thanks for the info! as well as the picture, helps a lot!! does the pith have to be centered in the beam, or can it be a little offset to one side? (by maybe an inch or so, to squeeze another 5x7 out of the log) this is a little disheartening, i was hoping to get all my beams out of these 2 logs, now i have to take down another tree!!

edit: here is a better pic of the end of that log for reference.... not sure what the crack is either?!


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## gemniii (Aug 1, 2010)

foursaps said:


> thanks for the info! as well as the picture, helps a lot!! does the pith have to be centered in the beam, or can it be a little offset to one side? (by maybe an inch or so, to squeeze another 5x7 out of the log) this is a little disheartening, i was hoping to get all my beams out of these 2 logs, now i have to take down another tree!!
> 
> edit: here is a better pic of the end of that log for reference.... not sure what the crack is either?!/QUOTE]
> 
> Beautiful log. I'm pretty sure the crack is bad news.


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## mtngun (Aug 1, 2010)

foursaps said:


> does the pith have to be centered in the beam, or can it be a little offset to one side? (by maybe an inch or so, to squeeze another 5x7 out of the log) this is a little disheartening, i was hoping to get all my beams out of these 2 logs, now i have to take down another tree!!


Being offset an inch probably isn't a big deal, but with regards to getting a 2nd beam out of the log, that 2nd beam is not going to be centered, obviously, so it will be less stable.

I've never worked with white oak, so I'm the wrong person to give advice here, but I was always taught to make beams from small logs by centering around the heart or else they will be prone to warp and twist. Some species more than others. 

Some of my timbers (ignore the pathetic one in the upper left ). All heart centered.





We're not allowed to link to that other Forestry Forum, but there are some good discussions on sawing beams over there.


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## foursaps (Aug 1, 2010)

i went back out today to try it again! i kinda centered one of the beams on the heart, and began milling away. instead of getting 3 beams, i got one and a half, and a bunch of 2x's. i wish i could use the 2x's instead of the beams, but it is going to be a post and beam shack. 

everyone loves pics!!

got 2 sides squared up






cutting the 3rd side: i need to get a smaller bar for the 394, all i have is a 36"!! (bring on the PPE police!)






3 sides squared up:







anyway, even with the heart kinda centered in the beam, as soon as my cut was finished the beam jumped a little. i stepped back and looked and it not only twisted 1/4", but also bowed about 1/2"-3/4". not to happy with that result. 

you can see in the pics, both the top and bottom are bowed, hence the huge opening. and the second pic is to show the bow in the beam.












so any help with what i have done so far?? i can't figure out why it bowed like it did, and i have to cut 6 more of these, so i have to figure it out before i do that at least!!!

thanks guys, enjoy!!!


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## mtngun (Aug 1, 2010)

Holy Cow !  That tree has some residual stress.

I've heard sawyers talking about that happening, but that's the first time anyone's shown me the dramatic proof. Thanks to your excellent pictures, at least your misfortunate experience is giving us a great education. 

I keep hoping someone who has a lot of experience with oak will chime in. Where's Sawyer Rob or Backwoods when you need them ? 

In the meantime, I can only suggest that 1) that tree may have had a lot of residual stress from a lean or a bend. When you saw a tree that has residual stress, it can come undone like a coiled up spring. 

You said it was a straight tree, but in this picture it looks banana shaped. That's not necessarily a problem, but it can be.





And in this picture, the growth rings are a lot bigger on one side of the tree. I think that was due to a lean, which can create residual stress. It's really not that bad and wouldn't have been the least bit of a problem on douglas fir, but I'm not so sure about white oak.





Or 2) maybe making the beam perfectly heart centered would have helped, or maybe not. I don't know. 

I wish I could trade you some of my douglas fir beams for some of your white oak planks.  There's a reason doug fir is highly prized as a building material.

If you don't get some good answers here, you might try posting those pics over on that other Forestry Forum, in their milling section. It's dominated by eastern bandmillers who would have a lot of real life experience with just that sort of problem. It's challenging to post pics over there, though.


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## huskyhank (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm not so sure that boxed heart is the way you should cut your beams. I think one reason its so common is that its the way to get the biggest beam from the smallest log or to get more lumber yield and a beam from a log. 

A boxed heart beam may twist more than a beam that is free of heartwood, especially if the heart is curved or twisted. Boxed heart will split more than a non-heart beam. So I think conventional wisdom may be wrong in terms of making the very best beam you can without regard for yield or using the least tree.

I'd find bigger logs and cut way outside the heart for the best beams.

You will also find that cutting 6 pieces when you want to use 6 won't work lots of times. If they have to be really good I'd cut 9 and use the culls for shorter beams or saw them later to what ever you need for another part of the project.

This ought to prompt a big discussion since its defies common practice but go ahead and have at me.


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## huskyhank (Aug 1, 2010)

And I'll add in --

Look at the photo of the butt of your log. The check that's started goes through the heart. When a log splits its always through the heart. The heart WILL split.

The things mtngun wrote definitely apply. The heart is very off center and the log is not really straight. If you get a straight-as-a-string log that is symmetrical your chances of cutting a great beam go way up. I'd still avoid the heart.


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## mtngun (Aug 1, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> I'd find bigger logs and cut way outside the heart for the best beams.
> 
> This ought to prompt a big discussion since its defies common practice but go ahead and have at me.


I'm not going to have at you. 

But I did PM Backwoods and Sawyer Rob and asked them to look at this thread. I know my limitations.  Who else saws a lot of beams ? DRB ?

I'd agree with your statement about finding a bigger log and cutting way outside the beam, if the log was big enough to allow a beam with quartersawn grain. The beam should either center the pith, or be far away from the pith.


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## mtngun (Aug 1, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> through the heart. When a log splits its always through the heart. The heart WILL split.


It's true that cracks radiate out from the heart. But those kinds of cracks are merely cosmetic if the heart is centered in the beam.

Most of my beams have cracks that radiate from the heart (it didn't help that they've been sitting out in the weather). But, they didn't warp. If I cut them straight, they're still straight. If I cut them crooked (something I've been known to do ), they still have the original crook.


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## r.man (Aug 1, 2010)

I don't know how to cut a beam that doesn't have any twist in it but I once saw the twist taken out of a beam. My father and his partner were building a house for a client that used a fairly large, fairly long main beam in the basement. The beam was put up last thing on a Friday. On Monday they returned to find that it now had a noticeable twist to it. Rather than replace it they hung a pail of gravel off the end of a cant hook positioned to apply twist in the desired direction at the end of the beam. I think it took a couple of days but the twist came out of the beam and the floor was built on top. I don't know if this would work in the long term if a substantial weight wasn't keeping the twist from returning but I am still impressed with their ingenuity and ability to adapt to circumstance. Good luck with your sugar shack.


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## Sawyer Rob (Aug 1, 2010)

I looked at all the picts... And from them, it looks like you found a "not so straight" log that has a LOT of stress in it. Not much you can do about a log with a lot of stress, i get them once in a while too.

First of all, i would have Anchorsealed that log ASAP as i had it cut out of the tree!

As for milling beams... I'm in the camp of having the pith ALL the way in, and CENTERED, or ALL the way out...

"If" the beams are going to lie around any time at all, and i want them to be straight ect... I ALWAYS saw them out quite a bit oversize, (includeing in length) and then resaw them to size right when i'm going to use them!

I MUCH prefer to saw them to the finished size, and use them THAT day, or no later than the next day!

Leaving them lie around in the sun is a HUGE no, no too... If they are going to lie around, they better be on stickers, with weight on top of them.

As always, your milage may vary... lol

Rob


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## mtngun (Aug 2, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> "If" the beams are going to lie around any time at all, and i want them to be straight ect... I ALWAYS saw them out quite a bit oversize, (including in length) and then resaw them to size right when i'm going to use them!


Good idea. I never thought of doing that ....... but then, I don't have a bandsaw. 

Thanks for your input, SR.


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## mtngun (Aug 2, 2010)

We're not allowed to link to that other Forestry-related Forum, but here's one of the conversations they had on the subject of cutting beams.

OP:As you can see I am new at this. Will the beams bow if after squaring the poplar log I cut it into quarters? 

R:Chances are, it will open up like a banana peel. 

OP: That is what I am worring about. If I make a beam out of the heart and cut as many beams as I can from the rest of the log should this help to prevent bowing?

R: I recently cut several 6X6 beams 9to13 feet long from poplar and found that a 12X12 quarterd did bow quite a bit, just like Magicman said. But by cutting them oversize and re-sawing after drying a bit I was able to make usable beams. I also cut some smaller logs and boxed the heart and they were more stable. Boxed heart from a larger log will be more stable also.
(but anything over a 2X likes to split as they dry) 

R: I failed to ask how long. The longer that they are, the worse it can be. I once split a 20' Poplar 12X12 cant into 6X6's. The results were not pretty, or usable.

R: I cut all of the beams for my cabin by boxing the heart of smaller logs...usually in the 12 to 16" range. They have stayed remarkably straight. I have not tried quartering a log for beams so I have no real experience with that but what others have said makes sense to me. Most of the beams have minor or no cracking but a few have really big splits and I have no idea why some split while others did not. It seems like I cut and treated them all the same.

R: Would not know what a poplar log is even with one fell on my head Not sure about dat one... Not sure about dat one... But with Doug Fir beams have to come out of heart any sap wood left and you just built a boomerang

R: Sometimes having Customer standing behind me when I am cutting out beams sometimes just pushes things to the limit. Have had situations where customer clearly sees two or three or even four beams in a log when I see only one. Even if I tell him, Customer doesn't seem to know I have made up my mind even before I get there, that I am not going to saw his logs into bowed beams, or waste a nice log which will surely give a nice beam out of the center but might give no beams if I try to get two or more out of it. Customer sometimes thinks all the trim cuts and 1x or 2x lumber were unnecessary. Mostly my work is hourly and I like it that way for beams and most everything else (and everyone agrees to it, and it works fine with almost everyone). But Customer seems to think sometimes beam means 4 cuts. What to do? Offer to demonstrate what happens cutting it his way? Offer to let him tell me how to make every cut on a log?

R: My limited experience with making beams from poplar has convinced me that you get one good beam per log. Box the heart and make a lot of nice siding or trim 4/4 stuff in the process. 

R: I was thinking, one of these days, I might try quartering through the center vertically and horizontally, then strapping them back together (and stickered both ways) in the same configuration that they came out of the log, and keeping them strapped tight. Wouldn't this keep the stresses balanced enough to keep them straight? Has anyone tried this?

R: No.

R: Trees lay down layers of wood that are in tension (maybe natures way of adding strength to a standing tree). When the wood is sawn from the log and is free to move, the tension releases causing the curve.

R: I've always been a Missourian at heart so I tried quartering to get four beams out of one beautiful red oak log I'd acquired- still haven't figured out what to do with the nice bow-beams I ended up with. Must be some use for a 4X6 beam that length... maybe we should have a brainstorming session on that- come up with some new uses for such demonstration pieces, than we won't look so foolish when we do it- "Oh, yeah, I meant to do that..."

Another thread by a master timberframer, we aren't allowed to link to it, but if you happened to stumble upon that other forum, search for the thread "Boxed heart beams or not" by Jim Rogers. The consensus of that thread is that boxed heart is generally best, free-of-heart may work if the log is large enough, but some logs will warp no matter what.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Aug 2, 2010)

opcorn:
That Oak does look real nice, the twist in the bark, and the sudden movement of the beam tells me it could have been twisted by a tornado when it was younger? Am i wrong? 
Anyway such a shame to be using that nice grade log to put into beams


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## foursaps (Aug 2, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> opcorn:
> That Oak does look real nice, the twist in the bark, and the sudden movement of the beam tells me it could have been twisted by a tornado when it was younger? Am i wrong?
> Anyway such a shame to be using that nice grade log to put into beams



there was a microburst (not quite a tornado, but a tornado) come through in 2001 and blew over a path in the woods 200' wide and 500+ft long. stopped about 200' from this tree. interesting you think of that, i never would have! 
we have about ~50 other trees like this one on the property.


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## foursaps (Aug 2, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I looked at all the picts... And from them, it looks like you found a "not so straight" log that has a LOT of stress in it. Not much you can do about a log with a lot of stress, i get them once in a while too.
> 
> First of all, i would have Anchorsealed that log ASAP as i had it cut out of the tree!
> 
> ...



thanks rob! i really appreciate your feedback. 

all the logs are milled 1' long, but to their final dimensions (5x7). i guess we could mill them down to 4x6's to straighten them before we install them. or mill them down into 6/4 lumber.

the timber is currently stacked and stickered in the shade on a concrete pad. (at least i got one thing right!!)

as far as the beams being either centered or all the way out of the heart:
what is considered outside the heart? 3" radius from the center? i have to lay out the next log to mill, and it is a little bigger than this one. 

thanks!


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## Brmorgan (Aug 2, 2010)

There was an ENORMOUS amount of stress in that log. In the end-view pic (with the crack), notice now close together the growth rings are in the SW quadrant and how they get many times thicker towards the NE quadrant, and how that results in the pith being significantly off-center. You're dealing with a good bit of compression wood (sometimes called "timber bind") there, which is the result of the tree trying to regain or maintain a vertical orientation. Could be from snowpress damage, wind damage or stress, another tree leaning into it, etc.

I've been keeping this piece of Douglas Fir in my firewood stack for a while now just in case I needed a good example of compression wood:







This is obviously a more extreme example. What happens with compression wood is that the tree pretty much puts all its energy into building up the much harder summerwood ring on the underside of the bend to try to give it more strength to stay vertical. You can see here that the tree was growing normally for a couple dozen years, and then something happened and it's been trying to right itself for the last two or three dozen (this piece is about 5" X 6.5" dia.). You can also see that the compression wood, being virtually all summerwood, is much much harder than the normal heartwood around the pith and doesn't tear out at all with the chainsaw. I haven't really tested it, but I'd say it's at least as hard as dry birch, if not approaching Maple. It's a shame that it's so bloody unstable, because it can really look neat. I have a couple 2' long 2X10 spruce blocks downstairs that are solid compression wood from one side to the other and are hard as nails. Not sure what I could do with 'em though, because as soon as they touch a saw they banana like crazy, and it's very brittle in general.


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## foursaps (Aug 2, 2010)

thanks for the explanation. 
i re-read all the replies here and the light bulb went off in my head. (you guys have been saying it all along, but it just clicked).
a possible reason for the bow/warp issue is the stress in the tree. the non-centered heart is another possible reason. combine the two (plus other reasons i'm sure) and you get my end result. 

this *might* all become 8/4 and 4/4 material for rafters and interior/exterior trim for the shack. at least then i can control some of the bends/warps. i really only wanted the white oak for the bottom sills of the frame, where it will be near concrete. 

so i can expect much of the same lumber in the other log from the same tree?


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## DRB (Aug 3, 2010)

That looks like a nice log. I have never cut oak before but I would never have expected that log to bend that much. I would have tried to cut that crack out in one 8/4 board and then cut you beams with out the crack. I am sure that the crack running through the beam at an angle causes the beam to twist in two directions. It may also make the beam try to turn into two triangles. But then I don't cut oak just mainly doug fir and western red cedar.

Must high end doug fir timber frames are made of FOHC. It will move right away or stay straight.

Here's a pic of me cutting around a crack. This gave me 2 FOHC 4x12's and 1 quarter sawn 2x12




Here's a pic of the first 4x12 FOHC





I have attached a picture of how I would have cut that tree into beams. Just my 2 cents and I don't cut oak.

I have thought to use my snowplow lift the same way although I would only use to lift and not pull. Did it lift that log off the ground?


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## foursaps (Aug 3, 2010)

i see what you mean... i have the lower portion of this log to cut, and there is a crack in it the same way. i am going to cut the crack out the same way you describe. that pick is helpful to say the least!!



DRB said:


> I have thought to use my snowplow lift the same way although I would only use to lift and not pull. Did it lift that log off the ground?



it did pick it up!! didn't pull, just lifted. i hooked a chain with a binder around the tree and the "tail" to the plow hook. i went up 10 inches, stacked under it, let it down, re-hooked the chain, up 10", and so on. struggled a little once the log got up to waist height, so i stopped.


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## DRB (Aug 3, 2010)

> foursaps said:
> 
> 
> > i see what you mean... i have the lower portion of this log to cut, and there is a crack in it the same way. i am going to cut the crack out the same way you describe. that pick is helpful to say the least!!
> ...


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## foursaps (Aug 8, 2010)

I had a chance to spend the day in the woods milling up the other log. i laid it out as is shown in the pictures and made sure all cuts were parallel to the heart. i am really enjoying the challenges of milling (really, I am!!) cause you never know what the outcome is gonna be!!


on to the pics!!

the layout:






first cut: some bow, not bad.






cut off the 7/4 piece that cut out the heart: this piece is nice... (on the right side)






had not finished the cut on the other end yet, probably 6" holding. 






son of a b......... : rot in the center. thought there was something there, because of the bump in the log, but didn't think it would be this bad!!






end result : i think i will be able to use them. have to make the final cut with the beam machine to get rid of the bark side.







hopefully i can get to sawing off the last side tom. or tues. and get the beams out of the woods. maybe getting that last edge off will relieve some stress and straighten the out?!?! (I doubt it!!) 

thanks to everyone for the help, this has been a great learning experience. 

i have already picked out 2 red pines to take down for the other 4 beams, they are smaller in diameter (10-12") so perfect for these beams, boxed heart style. expect to hear about those too!!


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## mtngun (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks for the excellent pics.

Man, I wouldn't have believed that bow if you hadn't shown the picture. Son of a gun. 

If this from the same tree as last time, or a different tree ?

That slab containing the pith will yield two nice quartersawn boards after you have sawn out the pith. Quartersawn is supposedly the most stable type of cut.


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## huskyhank (Aug 8, 2010)

foursaps said:


> snipped......
> 
> hopefully i can get to sawing off the last side tom. or tues. and get the beams out of the woods. maybe getting that last edge off will relieve some stress and straighten the out?!?! (I doubt it!!)



I think you might be surprised. 
Cutting the other edge may help straighten it out.
In any event, I look forward to seeing your results.


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## Sawyer Rob (Aug 8, 2010)

foursaps said:


> as far as the beams being either centered or all the way out of the heart:
> what is considered outside the heart? 3" radius from the center?



I would picture a 4x4 coming out of the dead center, and AT LEAST stay away from that... BUT, a 6x6 would be better!

Rob


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## foursaps (Aug 9, 2010)

mtngun said:


> If this from the same tree as last time, or a different tree ?



this is from the same tree, the first 18' of it. the last log was the section from 18'-36'. i still have a section that is from 36'-50'. too bad the lumber is being troublesome, there could have been some beautiful wood that came out of this tree. 

not getting out there this afternoon to finish cutting them, thermometer reads 98* right now. too hot.


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