# Tongue and groove scarf or notch?



## Ekka (Jul 27, 2006)

Righto.

I've only seen it once and cant remember it 100%.

Lopa has spoken of it often but hasn't let the cat out of the bag on details.

So, I had a few moments today between slaying some more chitsticks and thought I'll give it a go.

Is this right?

Approx 2.28mins and 12.08mb wmv this is the correct version and has been updated thanks to the work in this thread by Lopa and Trev.

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/tongueandgroove.wmv


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## stihlatit (Jul 27, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Righto.
> 
> I've only seen it once and cant remember it 100%.
> 
> ...



Very nice Ekka. Good demo vid. That sure looks like the method that Lopa used. I am sure he will confirm. Thanks for posting.


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## 1CallLandscape (Jul 27, 2006)

*Cool*

ekka, nice video! that is one cool cut ...I will use this for alot of trees around here. we have alot of leaners and are constantly cutting in windy conditions. it looks similar to an advanced "mississippi cut" 

-mike


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## smokechase II (Jul 28, 2006)

*new cut*

Have you tried it using a dovetail?


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## Ekka (Jul 28, 2006)

No, but I'm as curious as the rest, I just cant find any details or video on certain cuts ... and here's another, this Coos Bay Cut that some are on about, like what is it???


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## a_lopa (Jul 28, 2006)

someone else is better, far more knowledgeable than me in usage of this method.

i think i 1nd up him on one job thou only because he wasnt there!


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## a_lopa (Jul 28, 2006)

sorry ekka its wrong,its quater cut with a bore,you would have it down pat in 10 seconds.


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## Ekka (Jul 28, 2006)

1/4 cut with a bore??? 

Are you saying the one in the video is wrong?


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## Trev (Jul 28, 2006)

G'day I was asked by loppa to explain this mysterious felling cut I hope this is of some use to you.

The cut that I saw done by ekka is incorrect for this type of scarf(sorry about that) the reason is that if you try to wedge the tree over using this method you would be more lifting the tree, using more effort than is required. placing the wedge above or level with the scarf makes tipping it over easier.

regards Trev


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## a_lopa (Jul 28, 2006)

thanks trev


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## smokechase II (Jul 28, 2006)

*name*

What is its name?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes, thanks. Very clear illustration and explanation. When I saw Ekka's cut I wondered how much side stability you'd have with all the side play left by the saw. The way you show it, there is ZERO side play.

Questions - 


How much vertical distance between the 1-2 level and the 3-4 level?
How wide is the "tongue"?
How deep is the notch?

I'm considering using this on a dead pine, 14" DBH, and some live ones running 12" down to 6" or so.


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## Trev (Jul 29, 2006)

G'Day
Smokechase11 
I believe the scarf is called a tongue and groove(i'm not much for names as long as it works)

BlueRidgeMark
The scarf is cut approx 1/3 into the tree.
The bar of the saw is then plunged through the centre of the trunk level with the bottom of the mouth. for small dia trees the plunge need only be the width of the bar, for bigger dia trees up to 600mm the bar could be moved sideways a little, widening the plunged cut. note this plunge cut is right through the trunk 90 degrees to the back of the scarf.
Place a wedge into the back of the plunged cut and load it up (HIT IT)
Cuts 3 + 4 are made at approx 1/2 the height of the scarf opening making sure you DO NOT over cut the plunge cut.
Leave some hinge wood as normal and work tree over with the wedge.


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## Ekka (Jul 29, 2006)

Good one, I'll have to fell something on Monday and video it, even a palm pole will do, then I'll put the video up in this thread.

Now what's the bullet scarf?

Gee, you Victorians have funny terminology.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jul 29, 2006)

Yeah, and I bet they talk funny like you, too! 


Thanks, Trev!


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## Trev (Jul 30, 2006)

I believe a bullet scarf is the same as the tongue and groove as I said earlier as long as it works the name does not matter that much

Regards Trev


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## a_lopa (Jul 30, 2006)

found this old photo..


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## Ekka (Jul 30, 2006)

Great, thanks for the pic.

Just as I thought, without cutting vertically the tongue would have to tear out, but it is inline with fibres. That's the bit that was throwing me.

I'll try it out on a chitstick tomorrow.


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## a_lopa (Jul 30, 2006)

thats a blue gum they dont come more fiborous than that.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jul 30, 2006)

That pic REALLY shows the nitty gritty of how this works. Especially the wedge marks.


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## Adkpk (Jul 30, 2006)

I have a newly dead 10" ash leaner. Leaning back against the cut. And power lines to make even more fun. The catch is I am falling for a guy with an excavator. This cut will be perfrect to try with this tree. He'll put the bucket up on the trunk for insurance in case it goes the other way. Instead of using the wedge he can push it over with the bucket. I try to get pics and post them on this thread.


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## John Ellison (Jul 30, 2006)

With my comp/connection I dont download the video's but with the still pic I am wondering what the usefulness of this notch is? For countering a side lean?


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## clearance (Jul 30, 2006)

Adrpk said:


> I have a newly dead 10" ash leaner. Leaning back against the cut. And power lines to make even more fun. The catch is I am falling for a guy with an excavator. This cut will be perfrect to try with this tree. He'll put the bucket up on the trunk for insurance in case it goes the other way. Instead of using the wedge he can push it over with the bucket. I try to get pics and post them on this thread.


You are going to practise a new cut with powerlines around? Does this operator know what he is doing in regards to pushing trees? Is it a cleanout bucket on the hoe or is it a rock bucket thats teeth can prevent the tree from slipping? And so on....


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## a_lopa (Jul 30, 2006)

John Ellison said:


> With my comp/connection I dont download the video's but with the still pic I am wondering what the usefulness of this notch is? For countering a side lean?



not really more for direction,its a r.o.w specialty cut the line side first and nip the other side out while an assistant slams the wedge(s).


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## Adkpk (Jul 30, 2006)

clearance said:


> You are going to practise a new cut with powerlines around? Does this operator know what he is doing in regards to pushing trees? Is it a cleanout bucket on the hoe or is it a rock bucket thats teeth can prevent the tree from slipping? And so on....


Rock bucket. No hoes, it's a big excavator. He'll be in the way of the wires. If it falls towards the wires it will hit that machine also and I am sure he won't go with the plan if he thinks that will happen. Thanks for the concern, clearance.


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## a_lopa (Jul 30, 2006)

like this


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## Adkpk (Jul 30, 2006)

Ya, just like that. Except that tree is about 6 times as big as the tree I'm talking about.


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## a_lopa (Jul 30, 2006)

adrpk do you have any pics of the lewis winch?


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## Ekka (Jul 31, 2006)

I just updated the video to a correct version, the old one is history. Thanks for your help guys.

What I found was the piece fits really snug, you have to give it a good clobbering with the wedge.

I suppose make the step smaller.

Next thing would be to practice it on leaners and also have a tapered hinge ... that would have to be some serious advantage.


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## trevmcrev (Jul 31, 2006)

Trev said:


> G'day I was asked by loppa to explain this mysterious felling cut I hope this is of some use to you.
> 
> The cut that I saw done by ekka is incorrect for this type of scarf(sorry about that) the reason is that if you try to wedge the tree over using this method you would be more lifting the tree, using more effort than is required. placing the wedge above or level with the scarf makes tipping it over easier.
> 
> regards Trev




What the! Another Trev from Victoria Australia cutting trees and on here. Where you guys working? Down Gippsland way by the look of things?
 
Trev


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## smokechase II (Jul 31, 2006)

*advantage*

John E:
I think the advantage is that this is one of the cuts where you can use a wedge longer than the back cut. Just keep driving it without worrying about burying it.

In a post earlier it was mentioned that it would work up to 600mm (isn't that about 20"?).

Figuring 2/3rds in for the back cut possible. That would be 14". Drop that back, for the hinge width, lets say 12" for wedge being used, that might be about right.

One might be able to place the bore cut closer to the back cut level and not have to 'pop' as much wood. I suspect that some species might make this cut a bit difficult with their cell bond strength.

Another advantage is that a face center bore is one of the best barber chair avoidance cuts. So it could be viewed as having the right tendency.


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## Trev (Jul 31, 2006)

The main species this cut is used on is pinus radiata in Australia,
We also use it on small dia. eucalypts that have some height.
The notch gives the tree felling direction, keying the tree in place untill it is almost horizontal, very little chance of it going sideways, unless you make the key to small.

600mm is approx 2ft

Ps G'Day Trev, Yes another one, and working in Gippsland

Regards Trev


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## Adkpk (Jul 31, 2006)

a_lopa said:


> adrpk do you have any pics of the lewis winch?


I don't think I do. I'll check later.


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## smokechase II (Jul 31, 2006)

*thanks*

Trev:

Thank you.


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## Adkpk (Jul 31, 2006)

*lewis winch*

This is where I bought it. 
http://www.madsens1.com/graphics/LewisWinch.jpg
Bailey's has em too. I don't use it much. But it can haul.


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## Adkpk (Jul 31, 2006)

*dead ash*



Adrpk said:


> I have a newly dead 10" ash leaner. Leaning back against the cut. And power lines to make even more fun. The catch is I am falling for a guy with an excavator. This cut will be perfrect to try with this tree. He'll put the bucket up on the trunk for insurance in case it goes the other way. Instead of using the wedge he can push it over with the bucket. I try to get pics and post them on this thread.


Well, didn't have the time to do the tongue and groove notch. The excavator guy called me over with the bucket on the tree. I notched it quick and then back cut it and it was down in a second. Fell on a dime. Didn't waste any other trees. Hurray.


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## a_lopa (Aug 1, 2006)

bit of a wild notch and backcut!but hey it got the job done!


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## clearance (Aug 1, 2006)

Adrpk said:


> Well, didn't have the time to do the tongue and groove notch. The excavator guy called me over with the bucket on the tree. I notched it quick and then back cut it and it was down in a second. Fell on a dime. Didn't waste any other trees. Hurray.


O.K., on the ground, good, please don't think I am lecturing or talking down to you. There is a lot of holding wood left, I assume you put in the cuts and then the tree was pushed? The backcut is below the undercut. I have worked with excavator operators (hoes) clearing a lot of land, many truckloads of logs, guys taught me a few things and I learned. It is important the op. knows what he is doing, excellent ops. that have never pushed trees can kill you, make sure they do exactly as you say, exactly. Make sure the hoe is right behind were you want the tree to fall, make sure the hoe has an encapsulated roll over protective structure (e.r.o.p.s.), this is for the ops. protection in case the tree lands on the machine. All machines doing landclearing must have erops. The machine must have a rock bucket at least, clean out buckets are no good. Pressure on the tree only enough so your saw doesn't pinch, thats it, put in the cuts, cut off enough holding wood so it doesn't chair, leave enough so its committed. Walk away to where the op. can see you, in a safe place, make sure the area is clear, again, and then signal the op. to push. There is more, its all good Adrpk.


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## waldini (Aug 3, 2006)

mint vid as eva ekka. carnt wait to try it out.


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## 1CallLandscape (Aug 7, 2006)

*my first scarf cut*

ok heres my first pathetic attempt on a scarf cut. it was a 15" eastern Red Oak. it was previously damaged from a winter storm and was about 30' tall and in need of felling. 

i tried wedging it down from the back like in ekkas vid, but i guess the oak is stronger. and this was all log. so a little mor fancier boreing was needed but it fell exactly and my groundie, and thge customer were pretty impressed with the new notch. i will try it on a pine the next oppertunity i get it will work on that real well.

mike


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## Ekka (Aug 8, 2006)

Oops, I'm in trouble now.

Hey 1CallLandscapedude, nice. But you need to watch the video again, it's changed .... A LOT!

But welcome to the experimental R & D dept of felling.  

I reckon we have come up with a new hybrid notch that works.

The only thing I reckon is dont cut upwards into the log past where the back cut will be.


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## a_lopa (Aug 8, 2006)

If thats your first attemp you should go alright at it.


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