# J?tul C450 Kennebec



## Slvrmple72 (Jan 12, 2009)

*Jøtul C450 Kennebec*

Anybody use one of these? How do you like it?


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## boostnut (Jan 13, 2009)

4th year heating with one, next door neighbor has one too. 8+ hour burn times, easy to operate (the wife isn't even afraid to use it), one of the best looking units on the market.

Ours heats our 1400 sq. foot ranch without any problems at all. I have but 2 complaints with this unit. First is fan control, its high, low, or off. It would be reallllly nice to have a variable speed fan, not sure if the new units are now variable like the C350 and C550. 2nd complaint is the airwash system. The glass needs cleaning on a regular basis, the drier the wood the less frequent. I'm currently burning red oak cut 4 years ago and split 2 years ago. If I cut the primary air all the way off at night I'll have black doors in the morning. Unfortunately the airwash system wont burn all of the crap off of the doors during the next hot fire although it gets about 70% of it. A quick shot of windex and a papertowel when the glass is cool usually takes care of the rest of it. 

Don't mean to make this unit sound bad, I'd buy one again if I had a need for an insert.


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## cityevader (Jan 13, 2009)

I've got one and I would never own another. The firebox is very small. If you have anything less than perfectly dried for two years wood, it burns quite poorly. The primary air intake holes in the firebox are positioned so that as fall right in and fully blocks it. IF you can get the screws out of the cover, it can be vacuumed out. One was seized on ine, the other came out. I mauled the thing to get cover to rotate enough to clean it out. Coals build up faster than they can burn off, choking primary intake and cutting volume for reload in half.


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## boostnut (Jan 14, 2009)

Obviously City isn't a big fan of his unit and there doesn't appear to be too many other C450 owners here on AS. Head over to the ********** message board and do a search. Bunch of users over there.


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## cityevader (Jan 14, 2009)

There are a lot of people that love this tiny little insert. Especially at **********.....but there others who hate it...just like asking about a particular car. 

If you get one, MAKE SURE to remove every bolt before the first fire and liberally apply anti-sieze to the threads, especially on the little "bump cover" on the primary intake, front and center with 2 screws holding it down...you'll have to remove it at least once a season to vacuum out the ashes that plug air intake.

Also get a good 2 gallon pail for ashes, you'll fill it every day if you burn for main heat.


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## fugazi42 (Jan 14, 2009)

I've had my Jotul 450 for three years. I've never had a problem with mine in all the time I've used it. I consistently get 6-8 hour burns out of it when I pack it tight. It's also quite useful in the early fall and late spring when I want a quick hot fire as it gets up to temperature really fast. We heat our ~2400sf home 100% with wood with the Jotul 450 heating the downstairs and a Jotul 500 heating the upper level. They are both great stoves and I would recommend either without hesitation.

Josh


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## boostnut (Jan 15, 2009)

"Also get a good 2 gallon pail for ashes, you'll fill it every day if you burn for main heat"

City, I dont know what you're burning but thats just crazy. I might get half of a 2 gallon pail out of mine every 7 or 8 days. You gotta stop burnin that green wood. Something ain't right.


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## Booshcat (Jan 15, 2009)

*Kennebec Insert Facts Not Fiction*



cityevader said:


> There are a lot of people that love this tiny little insert. Especially at **********.....but there others who hate it...just like asking about a particular car.
> 
> If you get one, MAKE SURE to remove every bolt before the first fire and liberally apply anti-sieze to the threads, especially on the little "bump cover" on the primary intake, front and center with 2 screws holding it down...you'll have to remove it at least once a season to vacuum out the ashes that plug air intake.
> 
> Also get a good 2 gallon pail for ashes, you'll fill it every day if you burn for main heat.



This is not a tiny little insert...If you bought the wrong size insert for your application, please don't blame it on the stove.
I would also like to know what the heck you are burning if you are emptying two gallons of ashes everyday.
I've been heating 24X7 for two seasons with mine, and get about two gallons of ashes in about two weeks.
I burn red oak, cherry,beech and some sycamore that are seasoned properly.
I've never had to disassemble and clean my primary air intake horn, because I've never let it fill with ashes.
Sounds like you are not burning good wood, or not burning it thoroughly.
Do you know about secondary burning?
Removing every bolt on the stove and applying anti-seize is just plain ludicrous.
I don't like to see someone who obviously has issues beating on one of the best inserts out there.
Are you a dealer for the competition by any chance?

Bob


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## Booshcat (Jan 15, 2009)

boostnut said:


> "Also get a good 2 gallon pail for ashes, you'll fill it every day if you burn for main heat"
> 
> City, I dont know what you're burning but thats just crazy. I might get half of a 2 gallon pail out of mine every 7 or 8 days. You gotta stop burnin that green wood. Something ain't right.



WELL THIS WILL GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT CITY HAS BEEN BURNING....
This is his post from October in the Craigslist forum.

*****************************************************

"*I've been on a roll getting a solid 5 cords the last couple weeks from craigslist foe free.....then today happened.
*
Called this guy up, he said he had cords and cords of Oak and Acacia he just had cut down. And it couldn't be easier, he says, I could just back the truck up and load it right in....SWEET I'm thinking!!!

*I end up with 1/3 cord of 3 to 5 inch branches and some 12 inch trunk with 6 inches of rot in the center. All for two hours of work...but darn it, I wasn't going to spend all that gas to get there and back without something to show for it!!
*

******************************************************

Nuff said says me


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## cityevader (Jan 15, 2009)

Actually, I currently have Oak and Madrone, cut, split and stacked 2 years ago. This is actually the lightest and hardest wood I've ever had so far. There is no punky stuff, there is no sizzle of dampness whatsoever. Pieces light up in about 30 seconds after laying onto the coals. There is never even a spec of black on the glass. I cleaned my chimney for the first time after 3 years with this new insert and stovepipe, got a coffe can's worth of creosote. I have secondary flames with 1/4 open primary. It just doesn't like to finish burning the coals. It is vastly better now that I vacummed out the plugged with ash primary after mangling off the siezed-bolt cover a couple weeks ago...it's probably plugged with ash again.

You're probably the type that rips on a Ford owner who doesn't like his truck.


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## cityevader (Jan 15, 2009)

Mr Booshcat, If you can give me pointers how to properly burn/adjust air controls to completely burn everything to a fine ash (without putting me down) I'd truly appreciate it. BTW, I do have outside air kit.

As for anti-siezing "every" bolt...perhaps overkill. I tried to remove the door frame before it was first fired up (forget why) and it snapped. Tried to get screws out for intake cover...one of two siezed. Since cover needs to be removed frequently to vacuum out, it should be anti-siezed. Flaw in design to have holes right where ash falls in. If I were to load it so that there was no wood above those holes, I could only put about 3 four inch splits, which makes for one tiny firebox.


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## Booshcat (Jan 15, 2009)

Cityevader said>>>>"You're probably the type that rips on a Ford owner who doesn't like his truck." 



cityevader said:


> Mr Booshcat, If you can give me pointers how to properly burn/adjust air controls to completely burn everything to a fine ash (without putting me down) I'd truly appreciate it. BTW, I do have outside air kit.
> 
> As for anti-siezing "every" bolt...perhaps overkill. I tried to remove the door frame before it was first fired up (forget why) and it snapped. Tried to get screws out for intake cover...one of two siezed. Since cover needs to be removed frequently to vacuum out, it should be anti-siezed. Flaw in design to have holes right where ash falls in. If I were to load it so that there was no wood above those holes, I could only put about 3 four inch splits, which makes for one tiny firebox.





Quite the opposite, I own a Ford and I love it.
I do have a problem with someone maligning a product unnecessarily.

When you are the only person who can't seem to make the unit operate properly there may be something wrong with your methods.

I am not here to teach you how to operate your stove, I'm quite busy earning taxes to pay for quite a different class of "victim" at the moment.

I will say however that I do not have an outside air kit. Maybe that's why your input air is not strong enough to clean out the ashes in your air horn. Is your outside air input set up properly?

Again, I think you misjudged your needs and made a bad sizing decision.
The firebox does just fine heating my 1400 sq ft ranch.

There are videos on ********** that should point you in the right direction to properly start and maintain a fire. Build your wood from back to front tapering from top down. 

Good Luck


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## cityevader (Jan 15, 2009)

Wow, if never seen someone try so hard to discredit me. It's an honor. Sounds like someone here is a dealer for Jotul.
I like the snippet of my anecdote of disappointment at answering a particular craigslist ad for free wood being made to sound like my entire supply is rotten sticks. 

The original post asked for comments of experience, and I have a few facts and a couple of opinions. Fact: out of 8 bolts, 3 were attempted to be removed. One hex seized/broke, one phillips came out, and one phillips head stripped. Fact: if the stove is new, 2 minutes of removing fasteners one by one and anti-siezing is vastly easier than removing after several seasons of fires on those dry bolt threads if you want to replace the door frame gasket or paint it or something. Why is it "ludicrous" to spend 2 minutes of prevention before it's fired up, and how is that beating up the insert?

Fact: ash falls into the holes on the primary "bump cover", eventually plugging primary and airwash intake (secondary air is unaffected). Opinion: that's a poor design. Fact: two phillips screws need to be removed to clean it out, and if they can't be removed, it can't be cleaned. Fact: if wood is stacked about 4 inches back from the glass to keep the ash generated from falling vertically into those holes, the firebox becomes 10" deep, height tapering front to back from approx. 11" to 6" without a layer of coals/ash present. Opinion: that is a tiny firebox.

Fact: outside air kit consisting of a simple 3" tube going from stove inlet through hole in masonry to fresh outside air preventing warm house air being sucked right out the chimney.

Fact: many many people thoroughly enjoy this insert. 
Fact: many people prefer Ford vs Chevy vs Toyota.

Observation: fuel in the bottom at the rear burns poorly. The first full load burns down to about 3 inches and covers the primary air, which can no longer go through those coals, only over the top of it. Add the ashes that accumulate/smother over the coals with no airflow from underneath, and they just keep piling up without burning. Filling at 6am and returning at 6pm with air open about 1/3 with low blower will leave about 4 inches of ash/charcoal. I've had barely charred newspapers in that lower rear corner 24 hours after fire started.

Opinion: intake air coming up through the bottom of everything would allow full burning/heat output...like a grate/ash drawer setup. Fact: I have no experience of other inserts, only stoves. Opinion: heating half of my 1500 sq ft home is inadequate.

It's an exaggeration to think I am a "victim" of this insert. 
Do you mean I have a "victim mentality" simply because I'm stating some facts and opinions about my insert? ....nevermind...

To the original poster.....visit ********** and you will definitely get many many positive things if that's what you want to hear. I apologize for saying my Ford..ahem..Jotul leaves much to be desired.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jan 15, 2009)

Cityevader, thanks for all the helpful input. I repped ya for it! Anyhow the wife and I started poking around the back of the fireplace and see how loose the firebrick is and that a complete overhaul is in order. Started looking online and discussing our options. The fireplace down in the basement is home to our Treemont insert and we both like it that way. As for the fireplace in the living room the wife really likes an open hearth and she started looking online and found the Rumford style. You can already see which way this is going... I thought I was going to have a summer off from any home remodeling projects but I guess not!:greenchainsaw:


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## cityevader (Jan 16, 2009)

I did stuff a good deal of insulation between the pipe and masonry since those posts from a few weeks ago. Still no metal block off plate. Didn't change anything in terms of heat or burning... Just a guess, but I imagine a couple feet on insulation has to be _fairly_ close to sealed.

Previously I had a stove half in the fireplace, half out, with no liner whatsoever, venting directly up masonry (as it was when house purchased). Only a far-from-sealed surround against the fireplace. Easily twice the heat, half the ash (although the far bedrooms were really really cold due to outside air sucked in there and then out the chimney).

That is the only clue I have. 
That is the only other experience I have. 
The things I have stated are truth as I have experienced. 
And I'm not slamming Jotul, I'm saying the C450 model I own has a few flaws.


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## cityevader (Jan 16, 2009)

Possibly/probably not up to code, but I don't see how high-temp Rockwool between double wall insulated stainless steel pipe and masonry can be any less safe somehow. It's a lot better than the old "free-vent" stove with no pipe whatsoever...and certainly better than the installer of the Jotul who basically did the same thing, but with 4 ft of flex pipe with the remainder of the 18ft chimney unlined.

Previous to discovering that the intake bump cover needed to be removed for cleaning, while dissecting what was going on with the stove as to intake vs. exhaust restriction, yes indeed, it would burn fierce with the door open but not closed, leading me to believe intake issue. After getting cover aside enough to vacuum out, burned much better, but now a couple weeks later, seems like it's partly filled with ash again, as the "jet blast" right out from the two intake holes has declined since then.

Another gripe that I forgot is that with the blower on, firebox temp keeps dropping effective heat output... so I need to "duty cycle" the blower on/off maybe on half hour, off hour and a half...and I'm home/awake to do that, heat output is much higher. Lots of fiddling I can't do when asleep.


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## myzamboni (Jan 16, 2009)

City,

What size splits are you burning? I think smaller splits might alleviate the massive coal bet you are getting.

I've been following your trials and tribulations and you are slowly heading in the right direction with this unit. The screw issues are unfortunate.


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## cityevader (Jan 16, 2009)

For "at home" burning while there to tend it, the typical pieces I throw in are about an 8" round that has been quartered. A triangle of approx 4" give or take. No hissing or sizzling of dampness. Overnight/at work size may get three 6" rounds at the most.


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## boostnut (Jan 16, 2009)

"Another gripe that I forgot is that with the blower on, firebox temp keeps dropping effective heat output... so I need to "duty cycle" the blower on/off maybe on half hour, off hour and a half"

Once again, something isn't right. Never have I read about another 450 owner mentioning anything like this. 

For the life of me I dont understand how is it possible for you to have a blocked intake. The intake holes you refer to are not oriented so that ash can fall into them (although you could rake ash into them). Furthermore, the 2 holes are small, lets say 3/8" for the sake of conversation. Take this cover off and under it is the slide control for the primary intake. Open the slide completly and the uncovered hole is much larger, lets say 1" square for the sake of conversation. I sure wish I woulda measured these last weekend as I disassembled mine for no reason what-so-ever aside from my curiosity which stemmed from your constant bad mouthing. Now, you've got a coal that is a max of 3/8" falling into an area with a 1" opening. How the he!! does this get plugged? 

Sorry man, you musta got a p.o.s. straight from the factory. Tell ya what, pull it out, fasten it to a pallet and box up the surround. I'll send you a check for a few hundred bucks, arrange shipping, and save you the trouble of going thru a learning curve with this stove.


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## Booshcat (Jan 16, 2009)

The way the air blasts through my primary air inlet, I just can't see it clogging with ashes. I think you need to block the outside air and check your draft, or look to draft issues in general. My air inlet literally cuts a channel through the ash bed where the feed port is.


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## BearKnot (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi CE,

I offer the following for your consideration.

Go to 

http://www.jotul.com/en-us/wwwjotulus/Main-menu/Products/Wood/Wood-inserts/Jotul-C-450-Kennebec/

& scroll down to >*Manual (PDF - 935 kB)*< & click on "manual"

Note the illustration on page # 10 on how the flue is to be routed & secured.

Next see page # 16 for the air inlet / exhaust operation of your stove.

From the exploded drawing on page 20 please identify the screws / bolts, which are found on page #21, that you removed in order to get your stove to draw better.

Now, fwiw, this suggestion. 

Please check with Jotul immediately about your solution to your stove's draft problem as there may be unknown repercussions due to your modifications. Yours & others safety is definitely at stake.

And please keep us informed about your results for we might come across others in need of what Jotul tells you. 

Good luck with it

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*"*_Pick up a starving dog, feed & care for it & the dog will not bite you; 
that is the principal difference between a dog and a man._*"* - Mark Twain


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## BearKnot (Jan 16, 2009)

*Installation stuffed into chimney & Jotul C450 installation*

Ok CE,

As you're familiar with ********** website, have you seen this tread?

*Can I use Koawool?*

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31928/

Note oconner, Rudyjr, BrotherBart comments, & *especially *potter's at the end regarding installing Kaowool.

What type insulation did you pack into your chimney? 

Did you read & see Rudyjr's pictures of his Jotul C450 installation?

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30941/

If you're a member there you could *pm *him, seems very knowledgeable to me.


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## cityevader (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm not sure how you think that I've modified anything...other than not having a "sealed block off plate at damper area", but rather using Rockwool between pipe and masonry. Same pipe and install otherwise the same.

The doorframe #33 upper left bolt is the one that broke. 
What I've been calling the "bump cover" is #35 with two screws, one of which stripped. It's labeled an "inspection cover" which leads me to believe it is meant to be removed for inspecting/cleaning....which is indeed why it's there....to vacuum out the ashes plugging up intake....and of course I re-installed it...perhaps youthink I left it off?!? Nope.

I indeed use wide open during start/reload, and after full temp of 700* I drop it down to roughly 25% for the smaller splits, maybe 40% for larger ones. Open any more causing more fuel consumption and really doesn't add heat. The heat flows faster up and out that there is less time for it to be transferred to the airflow from the blower, hence the moderately reduced intake. With the high blower on, temp drops to 350* in about a half hour. Low blower takes about an hour. No blower gives higher temp, but less air heating.

Mine will "cut a channel" through the coals until the ashes build up and cover them, airflow over the top doesn't do much. I've got coals covered in ash in the can outside that don't burn out for two days....without airflow going "through" it, it just smolders without burning...same as inside the 450.


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## cityevader (Jan 16, 2009)

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31186/

The thread in question.


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## Booshcat (Jan 16, 2009)

Even when presented with the facts, you continue to insist that stuffing some rockwool up around your pipe is the same as a block off PLATE.
Did you see the part about the smaller finer ashes, those are the kind that wont plug your air intake.
You have been presented with all of the knowledge you need to make your stove operate properly. End Of Story


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## cityevader (Jan 16, 2009)

I haven't insisted rockwool is the same as a plate. 
I said I tried it, that's all. 
In my ********** thread, at the very end one person was amazed at the difference in house heat after the block off put in...and that they insert didn't burn any better, just a reduction in convective heat loss out the gap between chimney and pipe. I regret the fact I won't remove my insert so do it "right" with a plate, but I tried the insulation to help reduce warm air flowing up and out. That plate is the only advice I haven't done.

I did not see a part about small fine ash not plugging up the intake...mine was filled the entire 3 or so inch depth with small fine ash. (This is underneath the inspection cover, inside, not on top). There was about a cup and a half worth in there. I don't understand your idea about that.

To the OP, there is a high probability you will enjoy this insert, look at as many as you can in person, ask as many specific questions as you can without asking "which is better" type questions, as that leads to people like me giving opinions based on experience.

With a graceful bow while backing away, I apologize for exasperating all of you. Clearly I'm the only one who can't slide an air lever or leave wood out to dry. I should be amazed I've made it this far in life at all.


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## myzamboni (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey City,

Just for grins and giggles, is it possible to try running the insert without your Outside Air Kit? I'm curious to see if it makes any difference.


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## BearKnot (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok, CE, your points taken.

But do not stuff insulation at the top of your chimney, it wastes heat & causes the pipe to sweat. You don’t want condensation as it will smell up the chimney area. Best that you install the rockwool on top of the plate damper & let the top of the chimney open to breath. 

Have you pm pmilam & Rudyjr lately to see how they are doing? Since their stove is like yours you all will do well to keep in touch. And Oconner & others are trying to help as well, so don’t give up on them either. 

Ya, it is frustrating, but such is life, right (Rom 5:3-4)?

Print out the 450 from the Jotul website previously given but increase the view size so that you can clearly see the pertinent areas of the ash collection. Now look closely, does the pdf drawing agree with your stove design, bolt placement, air vent, etc.? 

If not get a good digital camera & call the owner of the store that your 450 Jotul is from. Arrange a time to examine his 450. Is it made like yours? If yes, have him explain the accumulation of ashes in the air intake area. If not, or he can’t, then take some good pictures & enlarge them like you did the pdf file. Give the owner a set & ask that he take ownership of your problem & contact Jotul on your behalf, he should get a faster response.

If he doesn’t have a 450 or won’t help, contact Jotul direct & explain the reason why. Get serial #, date of purchase, how long you have had your problem, etc down on paper in order to keep your thoughts on track. Do not get into details unless asked. Most companies have a trouble list that their info gathers must ask first. Those folks are usually not technicians. More than likely you will be passed up the line several times before getting a knowledgeable technician for, as you have learned, your trouble is unique. 

Keep your cool & us informed. Good luck with it.


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## BearKnot (Jan 16, 2009)

Did you all read CE’s posted ********** thread. 

Did you read pmilam’s post there? 

fwiw I’ve had like experiences in telecom. Was repeatedly told, sometimes with a sneer, that manufacture’s equipment is “computer tested at the factory before shipment”. Sounds good until you discover the hard way that such is not always done. Yes, all the Q.C. stamps of approval / testing were on the equipment. But as company’s engineers later reluctantly admitted, there was *no *way the equipment was ever tested / inspected.

Had a cop tell me about the best mechanic their division ever had. Seems the guy rebuilt a motor for a squad car. But in the process when he installed the heads such were only torqued to half of what the spec called for. Seems he forgot as something came up. 

I know a good diesel mechanic who did the same thing to our lineman‘s bucket truck. Came up behind the truck just after he got it out of the shop, antifreeze was steaming out the exhaust. 

Stuff like that happens to the best of people & companies.


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## cityevader (Jan 20, 2009)

I profusely apologize to those who can't stand me. 

Last night I was certain the primary air intake within the bowels of this insert, beneath the "inspection cover", were once again restricted after about 3 weeks since the last removal/vacuuming. I didn't want to deal with the one siezed screw to again vacuum it out from the inside, so instead, I went _outside_ to where the outside 3" air tube penetrates the masonry. With a full fire going to help draft, I stuck my full-throttle leafblower right up to the inlet for about 30 seconds. 

Viola! It is now cleared again with a bunch of very fine ash now *outside* the insert on the ashlip and hearth where it got pushed out the gap through the intake adjusting rod area, and now has a much better primary burn with greatly reduced unburnt coals and better heat output. I wonder how much ash went up the much, much less restrictive airwash passages or primary holes.

I fail to see how this can be blamed on the lack of a block-off plate to keep house heat in the house (the one piece of advice I didn't follow through on). Clearly a poor design of the intake holes being right where ash falls.

Again I recede away from those denying this is possible.


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## Booshcat (Jan 21, 2009)

*No Apology Necessary*

Glad that helped, see we all told you you had a draft problem!
I bet you had blockage in your OAK piping.
Still that block off plate will help a great deal...nobody is giving up on that line
 
Hope you will have better luck now with your stove. 

Bob


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## cityevader (Jan 21, 2009)

Booshcat said:


> Glad that helped, see we all told you you had a draft problem!
> I bet you had blockage in your OAK piping.
> Still that block off plate will help a great deal...nobody is giving up on that line
> 
> ...



Ahem, the "draft" was fine (my definition of draft is the chimneys ability to suck gases up). The problem was/is primary inlet within the insert at the front plugging with ash, and not the outside air tube attaching to the back of the stove which also feeds constant air to the secondaries. Funny how so many are arguing it's not possible to have ash fall into there, but a little bit each day adds up.



boostnut said:


> "Another gripe that I forgot is that with the blower on, firebox temp keeps dropping effective heat output... so I need to "duty cycle" the blower on/off maybe on half hour, off hour and a half"
> 
> Once again, something isn't right. Never have I read about another 450 owner mentioning anything like this.
> 
> ...


If you are genuinely serious about this offer, I may take you up on it. I'm currenty installing Duraliner (with block off plate!) into adjacent room's chimney, and have a cheap craigslist insert with grate/ash drawer to go there. I'm fairly certain this will heat the whole house as it is a few vertical feet lower than the Jotul. Of course, the wife won't like the pretty Jotul gone with gaping ugly hole left behind. If she OKs it, I'll definitely send it to you. If you have paypal, will make it easier...will keep you posted.


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## cityevader (Jan 21, 2009)

Slvrmple72,

Sorry if it seems I hijacked your thread, not my intent.

What is your list of inserts/manufacturers you're thinking of. Have you done much in-store shopping to get a feel for individual layout/features etc? Keep us posted on how it's going.


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