# Bowline mindblock



## MasterBlaster (Jul 13, 2003)

Why is it so hard for groundmen to tie a bowline? I actually PAY 20 dollars to anyone who learns it, and USES it. Out of the 3 to 4 tree companys I work with, I have only had to pay up once! Thats nuts! It must be the humidity, or something. Nothing(well, allmost nothing) is more frustrating than having 2 or 3 groundmen tieing 2 or 3 different knots(differently!) every time. Its real simple-If two groundmen are applying for a job, and only one can tie a bowline, guess whos gonna get hired? One could say lack of training, but I've shown these guys over and over, and they just don"t get it! MINDBLOCK!!! I dunno, seems like an easy twenty to me...


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 13, 2003)

CAn I pick up that Jackson? I can tie several versions of the bowline. Do you pay twenty for each 

I set the mark and groundies must know how to tie and untie a few basic knots. If groundies can learn that pay day is Friday, they can learn how to tie a few knots. Period!

Tom


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 13, 2003)

Don't believe for a minute that they drift into doing ground work for tree companies. I've talked with people up and down the skill and economic ladder and there are boneheads at every level. Its kind of scary to think that there might be boneheads in other life threatening crafts but there are. Maybe not as high a percentage, but they're there.

Tom


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## SilverBlue (Jul 13, 2003)

Or how about climbers who get bored with the bowline and start using timber hitches or some goofy knot that takes three times as long to untie a lowered limb? 
This new climber of mine is trying my patience!


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *For years I was always trying to get fellow employees to learn one or two basic knots including the bowline.
> 
> Since switching to an advanced climbing setup utilizing spliced ropes and learning to splice my own ropes, I've gone to spliced lowering lines and biners. Now I'm dealing with idiots who cannot figure out how to open a screwlock carabiner! WHY are some of the stupidest people on the face of the earth working as ground help for tree companies? *


THATS what I really wanted to say, but I was holding back. I even know many climbers that can't tie that one simple knot. If ya cant's tie a bowline, than ya aint's a qualified treeman-PERIOD!!!


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## Joe (Jul 13, 2003)

I believe it's due to a lack of mechanical experience.

A young man comes into the field for the 1st time having tied his shoes and a few granny knots. He has no experience with any other type of knot tieing. The newness of the experience
I believe is why it's tough for these guys to learn knots. Once a guy gets the hang of tieing different knots, then learning knot tieing becomes easier because the newer person has knot tieing experience.

A guy comes into the field having never touched an extension ladder, ran a chainsaw, started and fed a chipper, worked with any equipment in general.
The person has no mechanical experience. You can't blame a guy for being incompetent when he has no experience. It takes a while to bring them around. Patience with these guys could pay off if they stick around because you taught them to be the way you like them.

Joe


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *CAn I pick up that Jackson? I can tie several versions of the bowline. Do you pay twenty for each
> Tom *



Okay Tom, a jacked double bo'lin with a Yosemite tieoff  

I use it to attache my block to retrivable lines.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 13, 2003)

Okay Tom, a jacked double bo'lin with a Yosemite tieoff 

That should add up to:

$20 for the basic bowline
$10 for jacking
$10 for YTO

$40 makes it about right. Come to think of it, this might be a way to classify knots.

How much is a timber hitch worth compared to a basic, $20 bowline?

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *When a student fails, most of the time it's the teacher! *


I was kinda hoping the $20 would make up for any teaching expertise I was lacking. Besides, it don't take a rocket scientist to learn how to tie a knot!


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## Crofter (Jul 14, 2003)

*Why Johnnie can't tie knots*

Knot tying takes some visual memory skills that are often lacking in people with other learning difficulties. Generally tree work is heavy,sweaty stuff and if the person was doing really well in school he would likely look in another direction. Not so long ago a much higher percentage of people lived rurally where you learn to tie knots, use haywire and otherwise improvise. Last year on the job, we had an ironworker apprentice tie on a steel bracket and when his partner hoisted it up it came untied and fell back down on himself. No serious injury but they gave him 3 days off and told him to learn to tie proper knots. Now that is motivation!

Frank


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## treeguy347 (Jul 14, 2003)

Glad to see I'm not alone!!! I told one guy who always tied this PITA knot (i think he invented it) that was near impossible to get undone, that he wasn't getting his paycheck until he could tie a bowline in front of me and swear to use it all the time. Wow does the learning curve improve. It wasn't that he was incompetent, he just didn't take the few minutes to practice it. So what do I get for tying the bowline one handed, behind my back, while at the top of a 70' pine spar?


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## timberwolf (Jul 14, 2003)

It is part of the fire fighter training up here to tie a bowline in total darkness with heavy gloves on, I passed the test, but it took some practice. I doubt such a situation will ever come, and if it did I would be more likely to tie an eight or overhand knot.

What is the application for the bowline? If it is for rigging stuff for raising or lowering would you not just use hitches like; clove, rolling, tautline, or tarbuck hitchs (granted in their proper application with keeper knots as required)?

If it is for critical or live loads, why not tie a double figure eight, it is a stronger knot by roughly 10%, it can be untied even after extreme loading, and more over for people with visual memory dificulty it is a visualy gratifying knot. That is unlike the bowline you can tell at a glance if it is tied right. 

I am sure by asking this quetion, I risk being grouped in with those


> who get bored with the bowline and start using timber hitches or some goofy knot that takes three times as long to untie a lowered limb?


 But it is a risk I can live with. 

I won 20$ once from an ex boss when I bet my double figure eight againts his bowline, we tied a figure eight on one end of a light rope, and bowline on the other. Then attached each end to an identical locking gate and pulled on it with a fork lift until the bowline broke, it took a bit of working but the figure eight could still be untied after. 

And no, he is not my ex boss, because I won the bet.

Brian


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## DadF (Jul 14, 2003)

What can I say except I learned how to tie a bowline when I was Boy Scouts 35 years ago. Imagine what kind of groundies you might have if you could eliminate everyone but Boy Scouts! But alas I also know that there is usually a bad apple in every bunch so I'm sure that someone will shoot me down for this thought.
Timberwolf- I have also been tying the bowline with fire gloves for about 22 years now as a volunteer.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 14, 2003)

Timberwolf, the importance of a bowline in treework is mostly when it is configured as a slipnot, or a running bowline. I know of no other knot that could replace it when used in that application. It is the easiest knot to tie/untie after heavy loads have been placed on it. In addition, a locked-off bowline(and my friction hitch) is the ONLY knot I will trust my life with.


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## ramanujan (Jul 14, 2003)

> Or how about climbers who get bored with the bowline and start using timber hitches or some goofy knot that takes three times as long to untie a lowered limb?



amen to that! some seem to think that they're too good for a common old bowline...but the fact is it and it's variations do a superlative job where most knots fail miserably.

just the fact that a double figure eight *can* be untied after loading doesn't make it a good knot to work with. everytime I go to a rock climbing gym that forces me to use a double figure eight i curse the PITA knot.


just curious here as to people's bowline tying method- do most form the loop which the tail goes thru before putting the tail thru or do they form the loop with the tail?

hopefully someone knows what i mean and can explain that better than i did


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## dbeck (Jul 14, 2003)

Why do some of you call your ground workers "groundies"? Somehow thwt seems degrading...Those workers make or break the climber and every one of us knows that. If you don't you haven't worked w/ good ground help. Givr them some respect and recognition.
Lerning and applying new knots shouldn't looked down upon. To me, that shows an aggressive learning pattern and should be praised. Just make sure they understand that every new item must be proven and 100% sure it is applicable to what you are trying to accomplish.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 15, 2003)

Why is groundie degrading or disrespectful? This came up on Tr**buzz too and I didn't hear any better term for the job. If there is a different term, I'd sure like to hear. How about asking your crew how they felt about being called groundie.

To me, it's a take off on the term used for a stage hand that tours with a rock and roll band, roadie. When the term is used, you know what I mean. No disrespect.

What do you call your Veelaps? [Vertically Limited Arboricultural Person".]

Most of my groundies are climbers in training. I don't have any problem working as a groundie, in fact, most days I'd prefer to. But the reality is, my climbers in training haven't reached the point in their training to make production yet.

Is climber not a lofty enough term?

Tom


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## Crofter (Jul 15, 2003)

There are some places where a bowline is not a good knot such as an intermittent load. It unties too easily and with three strand poly rope can come undone. I had a boat go sailing away from us on a work project and it was tied by myself with a proper bowline. With manila or multi strand braided rope it is tried and proven. There certainly are applications where other knots are better. When you see how square or granny knots can spill or fail, and if you only know a few knots, the bowline better be one of them.

Frank


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 15, 2003)

A wole $hitload of half hitches will work any time


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## Joe (Jul 15, 2003)

ground support, climbers aid...

Joe


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## d kraus (Jul 16, 2003)

Everyone learns in there own way. I first learned it in the boyscouts, but forgot it soon after. One day when I was in high school my dad had me working as his ground man on a Saturday. He sent his saw down to be refueled, I could not remember how to tie the dam thing to send his saw back to him. He could not have his saw tied with anything but a bowline. So he came all the way down, cursing all the way. I think that was the last time I forgot how to tie it.


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## DadF (Jul 16, 2003)

Seems like you never forget a lesson when dad gets mad!! Right Danf?!?!?
D Kraus-were you working for a paycheck? Some of the best lessons learned are the free ones!?!? 
I kind of agree that there are just three, no five knots that should be common to all ground people - bowline, half hitch, clove hitch, figure of eight and common prusick. If all ground people knew how to tie those knots it would be a safer work environment for all. I say that because if you are the only climber at the site who is able to check your rigging and the ground people don't know or understand the knots then that extra safty factor just went in the chipper. Just one of those things I've learned from the little recreational climbing I've done everyone-checks everyone else.
I think we can all agree that a good ground person can make or break a good working day. Part of that making the day should be the ability of the ground person to cover the the climbers butt and vice versa.


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## dbeck (Jul 16, 2003)

In my opinion, groundie is close enough to greenhorn or rookie. You said it yourself, your groundies are climbers in training. That is someone who is starting out (Iassume) and is eager to learn (most of the time). If I was starting out and a climber called down "groundie, go get me a chainsaw!", or whatever, I might feel disrespected. How would the climber feel if a groundie called up to him to climb out to that piece of deadwood instead of use a polesaw? MAybe he would feel disrepsected also?...


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## dbeck (Jul 16, 2003)

never mandated anything rocky...I agree there's nothing more to add. 
I think it's great you and your ground crew get along so good, teamwork and frienship go a long way.
Also, nothing PC about it, that's just a thought I had...don't blow things out of proportion people!


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## Stumper (Jul 16, 2003)

I call my ground crew a lot of things (remember I work alone  ). Frankly I don't really see a problem with "groundie" in and of itself. I understand perfectly why Brian is accusing us of PC poopoo. Most hard working industries have names for various crewmembers. They are only disparaging if they are intended that way-if everyone respects one another then they are just designations. Drilling operations have roughnecks and tool-pushers etc. Welders have 'swampers'.Tree operations have Monkeys er... I mean Squirrels and groundies.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 16, 2003)

If I were to say something about Paul, Matt or Sarah you would have no clue who I was talking about. If I said "my groundie/s" you would know what I was talking about right away. I use it as a job description or casual title. 

I'm still anxious to hear of alternatives.

Tom


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## murphy4trees (Jul 17, 2003)

Ground person or ground man.... no biggie deal.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 17, 2003)

Brush Tech?


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## TREETX (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *geez, get off yer high horse about 'respect'. On the jobsite respect is earned, not mandated by PC speech. You guys are frigging incredible.
> *



We think so alike it is scary.

There is a difference between the guy who keeps your line clear, lowers big pieces of wood without shaking or flinging you, unties the line and sends it back up for the next chunk to be lowered and a brush pilot.

I have one guy who is the first of those 2 - we don't speak the same language, but we are on the same page. I am good at what I do but he puts the shine on the whole operation. I'm on the stage, but it is the guy behind the scenes that makes the magic happen. - I call that guy my right hand man on the jobsite.

Other idiot brush pilots that can't grasp the basics of common sense don't deserve the term groundie. I'm thinking 3-4 letter words.

One idiot kept walking into my DZ on a pruning job causing me to pace my cuts on his actions. That lasted a while until I viewed him as a target and not an obstacle. 

I respect those that deserve it on the job site. You have to here with the hispanic crews, they have a pecking order that is established fast. There is no automatic respect for the boss and they can be absolutely cruel to subordinates. I work with a small group and we know eachother's limits when it comes to respect - some guys don't care what you call them as long as you pay them, others see it as a threat to their manhood if you call them ground boy. (guess who gets called ground boy)

The guys I work with have limited if any english skills so learning knots is by example.

I have found the trick to teaching help knots is finding help that gives a chit about learning anything.


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## dbeck (Jul 17, 2003)

I'm sure guys can get in the way down there. We try to pace everything while working...if I wait for the guys to drag off some limbs from the DZ it can make things faster in the long run because they don't have to rassle w/ the brush later.
Nobody ever becomes a target.


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## TREETX (Jul 17, 2003)

dbeck - I agree 100% with what you just said

Communication and rythm makes it work though.

Puff, puff, pass - don't mess up the rotation.


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## jblimbwalker (Jul 18, 2003)

I've showed guys the slippery sheet bend and other quick/easy release knots to use when attaching lowering line to my climb line, yet when I pull up the rope there is a massive knot that the guy just invented. I've suggested keeping a short section of rope around the house and knot practicing at lunch to guys and they think that's funny. They can't fathom the idea of actually learning something new while not on the clock.


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## dbeck (Jul 18, 2003)

That's what I do when I learn a new knot. No sense practicing on the job.
jblimbwalker-try the quick hitch (in the tree climber's companion) for attaching two lines. easy to to and untie in the tree. I have managed to get everybody I work w/ to use it...give it a try!


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## jamie (Jul 18, 2003)

*newbiw*

i have recently started, after graduating in countryside management with an honours degree i found no work, paid myway through another qualification (RFS certificate in arboriculture, still awaiting the results) nad got myself the NPTC basic chainsaw and basic treeclimbing, why to get some training, to make me more employable, and to make sure that i at least know the basics, as my employer said you will slow us down but you will learn, and learn i have. i dont think groundie is a detremental term, its an abreviation....im only just begining to get properly accepted into my squad after 3months working with them day in day out....hopefully they trust me......so far i have only been up one tree only to put a line on to help pull it over but im learning on the ground first.

as for bowlines on my climbing course, i wasnt alowed to touch a rope until i could tie a climbing system (bowline, prusik and figure of 8) behind my back, why, to make sure i could in a stressful situation, much like the firefighter one mentioned above.

cheers

jamie


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dbeck _
> *...don't blow things out of proportion people! *



Brian will do that every chance he gets


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 19, 2003)

Someone should find that old Sven and Ole joke.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 20, 2003)

*The abreiviated version.*

Sven was wondering why Ole got the job at tha airport.

The Personel Director told him that hsi brother was hired ad a brush pilot.

he responds, well that's crazy, i do all the cutting and he's just the pile-it!


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## DadF (Jul 21, 2003)

JPS- I know it's not your joke but BOOOOOOOH!!!!!


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## Mattman (Jul 21, 2003)

I have a new guy working for me who has gone through Navy Seal school, and can't tie a single knot. What gives?


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mattman _
> *I have a new guy working for me who has gone through Navy Seal school, and can't tie a single knot. What gives? *


Hey, I spent 4 yrs on an aircraft carrier and I never had to learn any knots!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Hey, I spent 4 yrs on an aircraft carrier and I never had to learn any knots! *



That's because you spent the whple time in charge of refilling vending machines

Semper Fi, Do or Die, Ooo Rah, Ooo Rah where's my beer?

SEAL not knowing knots makes me wonder, I knew a few of those guys, and ForceRecon types (I woulda, but I've always puked when I run ) They wern't all ropeaholics, but they knew the basics for rocks and lashing up a small boat.


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## dbeck (Jul 21, 2003)

mattman - apparently navy seals are just shoot em up, blow em up guys. Look out


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## Mattman (Jul 21, 2003)

He said that he learned enough to get signed off on stuff, and then he instantly forgot it. He didn't become a seal though. I think he wound up doing underwater welding or something. Very task oriented.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 21, 2003)

A few years ago I took a twelve day mountaineering class from the American Alpine Institute in WA. Our guide told us that AAI contracted with the armed forces to put some of thier spec ops teams through the classes. Ely said that the guys weren't all that good technically but there was nothing that they couldn't do. He had a lot of respect for the way that they worked together. He said that he would have like to have a couple of them on big expeditions to haul gear and get things done. He knew that he could count on any of them if the chips were down.

Why not ask the Seal why he doesn't know knots. Let us know what you find out.

Tom


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## Mattman (Jul 21, 2003)

See my last post.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 21, 2003)

We posted at the same time.


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## timberwolf (Jul 22, 2003)

What happens if the rabbit runs around the tree the wrong way?

I happened to be helping with some water rescue training last night with the Fire Dept, one of the guys I was helping with knots was a lefty, no mater what / how we tried his rabbit would run around the tree the wrong way. From What I understand this creates a bowline variation (Dutch or cowboy bowline) that is strength compromised.

Also it takes a close look to pick up the variation, my basis for preference to teach a double 8 for live loads.

I took a few minutes with him to demo tieing the knot backwards, upside-down, and left handed, once I did this the guy picked up quick. Many people just learn and compleate the same task differently.

Brian


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *. He said that he would have like to have a couple of them on big expeditions to haul gear and get things done. He knew that he could count on any of them if the chips were down*



Hey there is a job title for the former military person "proffesional pack mule".D)


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 10, 2004)

I worked with these 'groundman' today - put it this way, I didn't lose $20.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 11, 2004)

i like "Brush Pilot", my other terms are "Ground Control'' or "Pit Crew", to answer one of Tom's questions.

i think that sending the rabbit the wrong way around the tree places the tail outside the bowline eye. If we are talking about the same thing; my understanding is that strength isn't affected but security. i was taught (and have read); that on shipping docks, when using the bowline; if the end (or toggle) rubs briskly against something, it can invert the knot, and the load falls, many times killing workers below. So the toggle/end is safer exiting the knot inside the loop where it is protected from this danger.

i make the bowline with the slipknot method; using that method, it is a lot easier to see how the knot could invert and release. It has also been called the climber's method of making a bowline; faavoured at one time for rescuing people off the sides of shear cliffs by lowering a line.

In the regular way to make a bowline, the rabbit goes up the hole, around the tree, then back down the hole to home. In a slip knot method, you make your half hitch (hole) and pull the tree (bight from standing end jus on other side of 'hole') down the hole and the rabbit crosses behind the tree, then the tree is pulled back up the hole. Either way is good.

i favour the slip knot method because i make a double ring/round turn/double bolwine, and find the 2 rings easier to handle and set with this method. i believe that 2nd ring has been shown to be as strong as an '8'; easier to tie, easier to untie and takes less line to make and less 'bulk' at connection.

With the yosemite tie off, the security is raised even more, the loose end isn't cluttering the inside of the temporary eye that is made with the bowline. This also (IMLHO); makes the knot more symetrical; easier to spot check in my mind. i take the hint of that utility value (easy id) from a reason mountain/rescue have stuck with the 8; is it is easeir to 'buddy check' being a clean/symetrical, easy to check shape. This double bowline with Yosebite tie off, i beleive is the superior form of the bowline for strength, security, ease of tie/untie. This too, can be tied behind the back. It also has a nice stop of spot,thaqt you can put the knot on 'hold' halfway through making it (right before performing the loop that makes the eye); addding extra utility to ease of making it.

Fer those that are unsure, i'd extend JP's just make a list of half hitches, to an olde, secure standard a round turn and 2 half hitches? The strength would depend on what you were hitching to, any uneasiness about security; tuck the end after the half hitches, under the first wrap that takes load. In this way the position that is free-est with no pressure on it; gets locked into having the mainline pressure on it; so the load stands on it's own 'bootstrap'; and is so likewise locked into that un beatable cycle of the most pressure of line locking down on most secured point (needing least pressure, yet getting max).


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## Dobber (Jan 11, 2004)

*left handed*

Whenever I come across a groundman who is left handed and is having a hard time tieing knots properly, I have found it is alott easier for me to tie them left handed for him to see. I already know the knot so its easier for me to make the switch then asking him to see it tied right handed, convert it to left handed in his head, then tie it. All my guys know their knotts, when In was at Asplundh and Davey you had to in order to pass inspection.


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## topnotchtree (Jan 12, 2004)

Ground guys can also be called a "branch manager"


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## wiley_p (Jan 12, 2004)

Dang, I can never get a word in these things in time to stay on track, oh well, I spend a great deal of time working with my groundmen, and thats what they're called. The two I have now can maintain the chipper, sorty of learning to sharpen the saws, tie a bowline, clove, timber,cow hitch, figure-8,french prusik, klemheist, set up a Z-pulley set static lines in trees before, my primadona climbers even have they're saddles on they are starting to get they're weight estimates down learning to recognize when to set a retreviable block etc. Maybe the mistake that we often make is looking at the ground position only as a stepping stone to the grand world of climbing instead of focusing on the fact that a skilled groundman is every bit as valuable as a climber.By the way these two guys have only been on the crew for 90 days


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2004)

Wiley, your a lucky man. You in the minority, for sure.

Keep 'em. Pay 'em!

You'll do well!


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## jamie (Jan 13, 2004)

*groundies*

just to hark back,

in our squad we have, 

boss, climber high heidgen,
lead climber
disabled groundman (badly dislocated shoulder means he can no longer climb, not that he really did, but it was all before my time with them)
me....trainee climber
machineman/groundman
groundman

we all send things up to the climber, tie pullinjg ropes, operate some of the machines, (to a greater or lesser extent...im only allowed at a few), check sharpen etc the saws and are all able to talk to the public as we are all educated (apart from the machineman) to some degree in arboriculture and tree care, we can also bluff our way out of situations as well.

why is that tree being removed???? 'it is diseased and suffering dieback and is a public saftey issue' sounds better than. 'wait i'll just ask the boss who is at the top of the tree and busy sectioning it as we speak'. the person walks off happy and we get on with the job in hand..... chances are the tree was a saftey concern though....

oh and the climber is totty spotter as well.....not that we perv on the lovely ladies or anything  

cheers

jamie


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## NickfromWI (Jan 13, 2004)

Chances are the client was sick of raking the leaves!

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 13, 2004)

*Totty Spotter?*

Never did like them little dogs!


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

*Hey! Get me a rope, eh?*


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

I love watching this one slide off the tail, 15 feet from me grabbing it.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

However...


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

If yah can't tie a simple bowline/clove hitch...

_GET OUTTA HERE-AHHH!!!_


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

So, am I the only one who suffers from this?

_DAY-UMMMM!!!_


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## rumination (Aug 19, 2004)

no problems here Butch. the guys I work with get that rope on there every time.


of course, that's with a basketball sized mess of half hitches


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

PICS!!!


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## xander9727 (Aug 19, 2004)

I pay a dollar more per hour when groundies learn a half hitch, girth hitch, truckers hitch, clove hitch, right angle, square knot, bowline, bowline on a bight, butterfly knot, cow hitch, timber hitch, becketts bend (sheet bend) and prussic. I won't give them a raise until they learn these knots. The shortest time has been two weeks, the longest is 13 months and counting .

Climbers need to know these knots plus swabish, distel, VT, bowline with a yosemite tie off, zepplin bend, running bowline (why is this more difficult than a reqular bowline?), figure 8, running 8 and double fishermans knot.

I may have forgotten a couple, I did this off the top of my head. 

As always my $.02


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## NeTree (Aug 19, 2004)

Want fries with that?


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## xander9727 (Aug 19, 2004)

Tree killer


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 19, 2004)

Geez, I don't know all them knots!

And I wuz a sailor, too!:alien:


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## xander9727 (Aug 19, 2004)

I guess you won't be getting that raise!


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## NeTree (Aug 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xander9727 _
> *Tree killer *



Somebody has to do it!


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## Stumper (Aug 19, 2004)

I use a Carrick instead of the Zeppelin-I've tied it but would have to brush up for your test Xander. I recognize all but the "right angle". What is that?


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## xander9727 (Aug 19, 2004)

Right angle


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## Stumper (Aug 20, 2004)

Oh, A Rolling hitch. Knot names are so inconsistent.


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## NeTree (Aug 20, 2004)

Looks like a TLH... secured by both tails. Seems easy to tie.


That must be heavy to lug up a tree, though...


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## Stumper (Aug 20, 2004)

Yeah on rope it is a Tautline hitch, Midshipmen's hitch or Tentline knot. On a spar it is a Rolling hitch or Magnus hitch.--Or a Right angle -Too many names but a great historic knot.


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## NeTree (Aug 20, 2004)

I'm still admiring that nice hefty throw-weight.


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## xander9727 (Aug 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Looks like a TLH... secured by both tails. Seems easy to tie.
> 
> 
> ...



It would be just like you to haul that up in the tree, damaging the cambium the whole way up.

Your heartless and insensitive to the needs and feelings of trees.

Shame on you Erik.


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## xander9727 (Aug 20, 2004)

Quit making fun of me. You're hurting my feeling.


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## glens (Aug 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Yeah on rope it is a Tautline hitch, Midshipmen's hitch or Tentline knot. On a spar it is a Rolling hitch or Magnus hitch.--Or a Right angle -Too many names but a great historic knot. *


That's why I advocate the use of the Latin names&nbsp; &nbsp; LOL


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## Stumper (Aug 20, 2004)

Okay-Its the Magnus.


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## NeTree (Aug 20, 2004)

"magnus" I've heard of. The others...

xander, no sweat bro, it's all fun.


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## husky runner (Aug 20, 2004)

*bowline mind block*

Hi butch I guess I've got another thing going for me as an amateur I can tie a bowline knot . I really feel for the poor residents in hurricane hit florida , I hear theres tons of just cutting and stacking palm work there, if it weren't for the need to make a paycheck and a 22 hr drive each way I'd be there in a minute, also i here its getting pretty tough there ,bound to be lots of violence soon if those poor people dont get the help they need, if we can go rebuild iraq what about our own country!!!


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## husky runner (Aug 20, 2004)

*bowline mindblock*

Sorry my last post was to be a pm , anywho id have 20 if i were tieing that rope.


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## NeTree (Aug 20, 2004)

Two words...
FOREIGN AID.

We'll leave the reat for another thread.


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## NeTree (Aug 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by wiley_p _
> *Maybe the mistake that we often make is looking at the ground position only as a stepping stone to the grand world of climbing instead of focusing on the fact that a skilled groundman is every bit as valuable as a climber.*



You speaketh a great truth.


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## knudeNoggin (Aug 25, 2004)

> boneheads at every level



Prudence thrives on circumspection
as oft', the patient mind, reflective,
reveals ideals of some perfection
as mere illusions of perspective.
--Anon., II



> Here's a picture I posted a while back showing the three second bowline.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attach/2065.jpg


Note that the starting orientation is ambiguous, so it's hard to tell what's which!



> If you teach this method, I think it's easier to learn. Instead of making the loop,
> worrying about which way to make it then putting the tail through, you simply make a
> "T" and twist your wrist, to form the hole and send the rabbit through.


Indeed this & similar quick-tying methods ensure that the rabbit's going
in the right direction. But one should couple such methods with careful
articulation of how the knot works--of how the loop
nips & holds the end bight, and how to easily untie it.



> his rabbit would run around the tree the wrong way. From What I understand
> this creates a bowline variation (Dutch or cowboy bowline) that is strength
> compromised.
> -----------
> ...



But all of you can do more than read, right? --i.p., you all have ropes
and knowledge of how to tie these knots (of which this extended lamentation
re knot knowledge pays hommage to)?! SO, can YOU generate this mythical
failure mode? --I can't. Indeed, the supposed failure comes exactly
in the way that some folks are recommending TYING the very knot!
(the slip-knot method) Oh, I can capsize the Bwl, and see the knot
then become an overhand noose and slide against the object--but not
to the point of what I'd call a failure. Release the end, and what
happens should be the retying of the Bwl, right? As in ...



> i make the bowline with the slipknot method; using that method,
> it is a lot easier to see how the knot could invert and release.



I'm with you up to the "invert" part; I don't see then how it can
"release", since under the supposed condition the original SPart
is secured to whatever was holding the load, and the end is now
secured by snagging to something. I don't see the original SPart
coming undone (it's anchored to a winch or whatever), so release
the end from the snag and ... viola, one is now tying the Bwl
via the "slip-knot" method--and presumably with a long enough
tail.
What am I missing?!

Now, what I CAN see happening is that the EYE of the Bwl gets
snagged (and I can morEasily see an open eye snagging than a
loosEnd of rope!), and then the Bwl is "ring-loaded"--such that
the knot is effectively a bend: a "Lapp Bend", if tied the
"wrong" way (Bwl end outside!), or a mis-tied Lapp bend if
the reg. Bwl was the knot. The latter can readily spill.
A Dbl.Bwl (with either rabbit ) should preclude spilling
on ring-loading; various securings of the tail--of which the
so-called Yosemite Tie-Off seems most dubious (yep!)--will
also preclude failure on ring-loading.



> groundies learn a half hitch, girth hitch, truckers
> hitch, clove hitch, right angle, square knot, bowline, bowline on a bight, butterfly knot,
> cow hitch, timber hitch, becketts bend (sheet bend) and prussic. I won't give them a
> raise until they learn these knots. The shortest time has been two weeks, the longest is
> ...



I'd extend it to give a knot-securing complement: the slip-knot stopper
(or the Overhand stopper--the Slip-knot is handy when the knotted end is long,
and one prefers to tie the knot in the bight).
Some of those above knots can be made secure by tying a stopper knot in the end,
such as for the Clove, Cow, & Timber hitches.

As for "becketts bend", that's "becket bend" (a becket being a generally u-shaped thing, such as an eye splice).
Also, prefer the Dble of each--which helps smooth over the issue
of whether to tie the same-side vs. opp.-side version of the Sheet bend.

--knudeNoggin


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## OutOnaLimb (Aug 25, 2004)

I learned to tie the bowline and a few other knots when I was in the Ranger indocterination program when I was a weeee private in the army. They taught us the bowline and that night we had to have all are gear tied down with parachute cord using a bowline and square not. If you f*cked it up the first time you got a warning, If you f*cked it up the second time your whole squad was doing push ups in the gravel for about 30 minutes. The fact that one guy in the squad screwing up that know made sure every one knew it and was spot checking one another. After that I was tieing down night vision goggles and untying them in the dark with nary a problem.

Kenn


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## OutOnaLimb (Aug 25, 2004)

Oh, and for the record, I have made my groundies do push ups when they f*cked something up. And to prove that I lead by example, I will do push ups for them if I **** somthing up. (Which is rare to never)

Kenn


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## xander9727 (Aug 26, 2004)

Dude,
That was a segment of your life.
Let it go.
Move on brother.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 26, 2004)

*Hahahahaaa!!*

Yea, that wouldn't fly with the groundies around here!


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## jkrueger (Aug 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OutOnaLimb _
> *Oh, and for the record, I have made my groundies do push ups when they f*cked something up. And to prove that I lead by example, I will do push ups for them if I **** somthing up. (Which is rare to never)
> 
> Kenn *



Whis I had a ground 'person'. Tiered of doing it all alone and figuring out ways to get past the speed and one man band approach.

Sigh,
Jack


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## arboromega (Aug 26, 2004)

i think the problem is that most ground men dont care. they dont see this as a career for themselves and dont have motivation to learn. in my experience only the groundies who have wanted to climb bothered to learn the ropes.


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## NeTree (Aug 26, 2004)

I learned how to tie one when I was five... what's the big f-ing deal? It's as easy as tying laces.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 26, 2004)

I agree, but I didn't learn it until I was 30!!!


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## OutOnaLimb (Aug 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *Dude, you have serious issuses.
> And if some groundman actually did "get down and give you 20" instead of walking off the job, just at the mere suggestion, he too has issues.
> Seek help. *



I have lots of issues. but I have serious issues when some one runs a pitch fork through the chipper, cuts a climb line in half with a saw, or looses equipment. I run my show like I ran my fire team. If they dont like it. they can go wash cars or hang out at the Lazy Ready office all day. Fortuneatly right now its just me and my partner who is ex Marine. We both beat our face at least once every other week.

Behold the power of negative reinforcement.

Kenn


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## NeTree (Aug 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I agree, but I didn't learn it until I was 30!!! *



Bowline or laces?


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## NeTree (Aug 29, 2004)

Well put, Mike; I understand your point...

Keep in mind though, it's hard to "de-program" back to the way we used to be. It takes time and deliberate practice.


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## xander9727 (Aug 29, 2004)

Amen to that brother. I would love to make my guys get wet and sandy when they screw up but.........I wouldn't have them as employees for long. The military mentality definately has it's place but it requires the military discipline and training that procedes it. Unfortunately civilians just don't "get it". I don't like it, but I have to accept it if I'm going to be successful in business.


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## NeTree (Aug 29, 2004)

LOL It took me a year to tell "normal" time and dates again.


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## glens (Aug 29, 2004)

Gotta love those analog clocks which only make one spin of the hour hand in a day.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 8, 2005)

Maybe this will do it!


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 8, 2005)

I stole that from dah Spiderman...


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## xander9727 (Feb 8, 2005)

Thief


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## jason j ladue (Feb 8, 2005)

figures something that cool would come from spidey


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## jason j ladue (Feb 8, 2005)

the bowline is my knot of preference


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## treechick (Feb 9, 2005)

someone on this site mentioned a bowline on a bight.... gotta admit that one's got me stumped???


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 9, 2005)

Mattman said:


> I have a new guy working for me who has gone through Navy Seal school, and can't tie a single knot. What gives?



I have an Ex Marine that is a big time rock climber that still cant tie a running bowline, I guess at least he can tie a regular bowline. We had a removal using a lift and he wanted to block some stuff down, but had to use a figure 8 on a biner to rope the chunks down using a loopie sling and a block. But once I un hooked the chuncks and he pulled the bull rope up to the block I just yelled up to him. "What are ya gonna do now Knothead??"" It took him a few seconds to figure out what I was saying and then he said. "Oh Crap" or something like that. He had to unscrew the block with every cut because the fig 8 and biner woundnt pass through the block. Whats up with you Jar Heads any way? Im thinking they remove half your brain and put it in a jar when you go through boot camp. Thus the name Jar Head. 

Rangers Lead The Way!!
Kenn


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 9, 2005)

Animated BoB (Bowline on a Bight) 

The last of set of external links near the bottom of page of: Knot Links Page you should download the fantastic "Life on a Line" Free E-Book (1st section has excellent look into mountain climber's knots) by Dr. Merchant. On page 40 B.O.B. appears here too; as well as much good knowledge throughout.

i prefer a DBY as basic temporary eye, an upgrade in strength, security over a regular bowline, and like B.o.B.; bitter end doesn't finish in the way(inside the formed eye). Knudeone/ Dan Ledham is working on some other bowline versions.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 9, 2005)

treechick said:


> someone on this site mentioned a bowline on a bight.... gotta admit that one's got me stumped???




It's just a regular bowline, but tied with the rope doubled up... that's what a "bight" of rope is. It's also how "saddles" were tied, back in the old days.


Ya ever seen a "Dragon bowline?"


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## treechick (Feb 9, 2005)

*bowline trickery*

Hi, Butch ! I checked out the web site on knots that TreeSpyser turned me on to, and I now 'own' the bowline on a bight ... but it is indeed different from a bowline in that the loop passes over itself... and I also tied it wrong and got a running bowline on a bight >>> though I'm sure it goes by a different name ?


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## SteveBullman (Feb 9, 2005)

treechick said:


> Hi, Butch ! I checked out the web site on knots that TreeSpyser turned me on toQUOTE]
> 
> that sure is a very informative site that kenny made there but thats going a bit far dont you think


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## DadF (Feb 9, 2005)

Hey Out-just helped a buddy of mine take down a 50' climbing wall that he bought. Guess who was up on top helping with the takedown- a US Marine. Guess who was down at the bottom controlling the rack-a US Marine. Take your ranger stuff and stuff it!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 9, 2005)

Awe, c'mon Steve; don't ya know, i've just barely slipped my shoes off...

i seek comprehensive coverage, before paring back.
The links are those that i keep fer myself; jsut do it openly.
Once again trying to be comprehensive; if ya saw link someplace
and are looking fer it, hopefully i can help.

i also try to give some vision into my sight;
much werk ahead; including learning mo'bout FrontPage.
(closing your Quote statement with "[/quote]" instead of "quote]" might give desired effect)

There is a B.o.B. version that ya make the bight for tail and rabbit hole; and just bring the bight tail through the double in the bight rabbit hole, around the standing part, and back down the hole. That bight giving 3rd loop. (Thought MB might be talking about)

A Portugese Bowline gives 2 loops too; just a standard bowline with extra loop for another eye; but the loops slip their slack back and forth. which can be good or bad, depending on use.

A Spanish Bowline gives 'splayed'/spread (mneomic: Spanish/Splayed/Spread) loops, with good for wider angles of pull etc., that might leverage other bowlines, that are set with a more inline pull force to the standing part, rather than across standing part axis; where you might use this. Direction of force, is all ways most important; in fact without a direction to the force,there is no force in my mental comix of decision making.

Young Damsels, Beware the Dragon!
-KC


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 10, 2005)

dbeck said:


> mattman - apparently navy seals are just shoot em up, blow em up guys. Look out



SEALS are pretty boy, trim and bleach my hair kinda boys. Oh and I have to spend an hour in the tanning beds kinda boys. Do you know how many SEALS I have seen drop out or Ranger School? I have no respect for those Hollywood clowns. I will put a Ranger platoon up against a Seal Platoon any time. 
Kenn


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## NeTree (Feb 10, 2005)




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## Stumper (Feb 10, 2005)

Pssst. Kenn, Remember that we are all SUPPOSED TO be on the SAME side. BTW, How many people even know that the Air Force has deep penetration , behind the lines special ops guys? I wonder if they are the best since they've been doing it for decades and noone seems to have noticed?  :angel:


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## xander9727 (Feb 13, 2005)

Wonder no more......They're not!


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## Stumper (Feb 13, 2005)

C'mon Todd, I'm yankin' Kenn's chain. You're supposed to help. After all he hurt your feeling.


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## xander9727 (Feb 15, 2005)

A chain won't work with Kenn.......he's already figured a way around it......what he needs is a shock collar!


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 19, 2005)

A shock collar huh, Sounds kinda kinky to me. As long as its some sexy domanatrix and not you doing the shocking Im down for it.

Kenn


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