# EAB reaches Wisconsin



## glennschumann

Well, we are the 10th state (province) to find the EAB. Just for reference, they found it one county north of Milwaukee. I hope the pesticides help...

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=779618


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## ddhlakebound

Thanks for the post. It mentioned in the link that EAB had also been found in the bootheel of Missouri.


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## John Paul Sanborn

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=....030915&spn=0.018481,0.038624&z=15&iwloc=addr

This is the Google Maps location of the outbreak. If the link does not work, Newberg is between West Bend and Port Washington on hwy 33.

This is a follow-on story from todays paper.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=780253

Note that the "victims" do not even have a fireplace...


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## Kneejerk Bombas

And a second find about a mile away a day or two ago.


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## John Paul Sanborn

The article Mike refers to;

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=781058


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## Fuzly

Very sad

I remember hauling load after load of elm firewood when Dutch Elm hit us hard up here. It didn't take long until it was rare to see a live elm tree. They're coming back a little, but very slowly.

This invasive seems just as bad or worse. I hope somebody with a better scientific understanding than me comes up with something that can eradicate EAB. My home is surrounded by ash and other assorted hardwoods, I want them to stick around.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Here is the info for the eab email blast! Could you send this info to the commercial and utility members only. 



Thank you,

Brian Pelot

WAA Publicity Chair

The plan is to look at the EAB infested trees, peel some bark to look at galleries (maybe even see EAB larvae) and reconvene in the community room at the Fire Department to discuss your concerns, ideas, etc.

Because we only have room for 60 people per session, please limit the number of staff to 1 or 2 people per company. To reserve your seat and receive additional details, please contact Kathy Gonzalez at [email protected] or call at 608-275-3227 to indicate what session you are attending.


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## glennschumann

*EAB found in new area of Wisconsin*

Please see the link for new news.

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=10/21/2008&id=47813

It has reached Kenosha County from a tree transplanted from Illinois.

Cross your fingers.


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## glennschumann

*More details*

Here is the latest story... similar to the above, but with a few more details.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=808878


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## Urban Forester

I hate to say it, but when it's "discovered", that means it's been there for 3 to 4 years. Good luck folks, you can't believe what that little bas---- can do. I would recommend regardless of where you are in Wisconsin, start treating your high value Ash tomorrow. A big mistake some Co,'s make is spreading themselves to thin. You can't save every tree, don't try. Concentrate on the high value ones.


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## Ed*L

Urban Forester said:


> I hate to say it, but when it's "discovered", that means it's been there for 3 to 4 years. Good luck folks, you can't believe what that little bas---- can do. QUOTE]
> 
> That's my take on it also.
> I've been doing a little firewood cutting lately and it really makes me sick to see the damage they've done on my property.
> Every Ash tree in the woods will die, it's as simple as that.
> 
> Ed


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## treevet

Fuzly said:


> Very sad
> 
> I remember hauling load after load of elm firewood when Dutch Elm hit us hard up here. It didn't take long until it was rare to see a live elm tree. They're coming back a little, but very slowly.
> 
> This invasive seems just as bad or worse. I hope somebody with a better scientific understanding than me comes up with something that can eradicate EAB. My home is surrounded by ash and other assorted hardwoods, I want them to stick around.



There are no hopes or prayers for eradication. As has been said the only game plan is to treat individual trees and hope the treatment holds up under high pressure in the midst of heavy infestation. Right now the best treatment is Treeage (Emben) and immidacloprid in injection and improve health maintenance.


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## dingeryote

I wish you Wisconsin guys luck in all this with the EAB.

Two years ago my area of Michigan was in the quarantine thanks to firewood brought into the area by tourists from Indianna/Chicago.

Last year the EAB was found all over the county.

This weeks edition of the Farm news announced the whole state is screwed.

My contact at NRCS flat out told me the only cure is to cut the Ash trees, as innoculation trials weren't working well enough to stop the infestation and renewal from the folks bringing in contaminated firewood.

I cut all of my Ash last year, and am burning it now. It hurts.

If you can. Push for random checks by your states DNR at the state Border during summer camping season, and set fines so they HURT bad enough to cause thoughts of suicide.

If the EAB was a lawn pest, or destroyed video games, it would have been controlled by now... 

Best of luck to ya!
Dingeryote


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## treevet

dingeryote said:


> I wish you Wisconsin guys luck in all this with the EAB.
> 
> Two years ago my area of Michigan was in the quarantine thanks to firewood brought into the area by tourists from Indianna/Chicago



The entire infestation originated in Michigan. What you mentioned may have happened (in your locality), but for most areas it was movement of firewood out of Mich. into other areas that started it all.

The lack of control/eradication is not from a lack of caring or interest but rather because of the life cycle of the insect and difficulty in contacting it with insecticide in mass.


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## dingeryote

treevet said:


> The entire infestation originated in Michigan. What you mentioned may have happened (in your locality), but for most areas it was movement of firewood out of Mich. into other areas that started it all.
> 
> The lack of control/eradication is not from a lack of caring or interest but rather because of the life cycle of the insect and difficulty in contacting it with insecticide in mass.



Treevet,

From the info I get, since initial discovery, containment/ controll has been hampered more by the movement of firewood by tourists than any other aspect. In fact, if you look at the pattern of outbreaks they are all near or dead center of recreational parks. Folks are still hauling contaminated wood all over the place unchecked.

A quick scan and verbal questioning(My employment then, had me in the Park several times a week) of Campers at a nearby State park and guess what I found? Ash, some contaminated, and the tourists were from Michigan, Indianna,Illinois,Ohio, Missouri. All of them brought wood with them from the last place they camped or home. None had a clue about EAB.

Obviously the attempts at public notification aren't adequate, and enforcement is lacking. 

I would disagree with your assessment.

In order to foment interest or caring, folks need to be informed, and then to provide incentive, there needs to be enforcement of the quarantine.
Little has been done in this regard.

Otherwise a "Firebreak" of innoculation and applications of Immidan will be ineffectual on stemming the overall spread, regardless of timing/gestation.

I'm also curious as to the port of entry for the EAB, and if any new regs have been enacted.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## treevet

dingeryote said:


> Treevet,
> 
> From the info I get, since initial discovery, containment/ controll has been hampered more by the movement of firewood by tourists than any other aspect. In fact, if you look at the pattern of outbreaks they are all near or dead center of recreational parks. Folks are still hauling contaminated wood all over the place unchecked.
> 
> A quick scan and verbal questioning(My employment then, had me in the Park several times a week) of Campers at a nearby State park and guess what I found? Ash, some contaminated, and the tourists were from Michigan, Indianna,Illinois,Ohio, Missouri. All of them brought wood with them from the last place they camped or home. None had a clue about EAB.
> 
> Obviously the attempts at public notification aren't adequate, and enforcement is lacking.
> 
> I would disagree with your assessment.
> 
> In order to foment interest or caring, folks need to be informed, and then to provide incentive, there needs to be enforcement of the quarantine.
> Little has been done in this regard.
> 
> Otherwise a "Firebreak" of innoculation and applications of Immidan will be ineffectual on stemming the overall spread, regardless of timing/gestation.
> 
> I'm also curious as to the port of entry for the EAB, and if any new regs have been enacted.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



Immidan? Never heard of this being used. You may mean Immidacloprid?

Anyway, you may disagree if you wish with established opinions and form your own but the fact remains that firewood contributes to and accellorates the movement of the borer but control has been difficult at best. Individual trees may be systemmically treated to reach the encapsulated larvae however it is too expensive to treat every tree everywhere (woods included) and the new epicormic shoots that spring up from the dead ash. During flight period they are all over the place and feed very little for stomach or contact poison. "Firebreak of innoculation? Not feasible. In the beginning there were attempts at clearcutting and this failed, because of budget cutbacks and again difficulty in eradicating the insect because of it's nature (and also transport of firewood, yes) but they have also been found to travel (flight period) farther than the previously estimated 2 miles per year.

I think the pattern of outbreaks appear around highways more than parkgrounds, a much smaller recipient of firewood than homeowners. Maybe if no one ever moved a stick of firewood or lumber or nursery stock then a slow down might occur. People are never going to all be able to discern ash from other wood/trees. And where is the budget to enforce this as they couldn't even keep staff in offices after a couple of years?

Port of entry, you have no leg to stand on in this one....Michigan, 2002 or earlier.


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## ATH

Lot of good points treevet. Mind if I expand a couple of thoughts here?



treevet said:


> ...........In the beginning there were attempts at clearcutting and this failed, because of budget cutbacks and again difficulty in eradicating the insect because of it's nature (and also transport of firewood, yes) but they have also been found to travel (flight period) farther than the previously estimated 2 miles per year......



There is also the problem that it is difficult to detect in early stages of infestation. There were many areas across the "firebreak" that were infested before the firebreak line was even first penciled onto a map. WAY too much of our money was wasted on this long after it was obvious we were cutting a firebreak behind the fire. I was probably moved to MANY small pockets (likely throughout Ohio and Michigan, Chicago, etc...) before regulation #1 was written.



treevet said:


> ..........Port of entry, you have no leg to stand on in this one....Michigan, 2002 or earlier.


Much earlier. It was discovered/identified in 2002. Probably there at least 10 years before it was identified. So yeah...the rest of us can blame it on Michigan. Northern Michigan can blame it on tourists, but they should start looking to Detroit tourists first, then to the rest of the tourists.

Yes, little public education/information has been a problem, but not the only problem.


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## dingeryote

Treevet,

Yep! Imidaclorpid. Imidan is a similar pesticide I use, my slip.

So now the EAB is travelling past 2 miles?
Swell. 

Agreed on the budget cuts for random inspections. Our DNR here is stretched really thin as it is. However, every State park in this country has a Manned Gate where Campers and Picnic goers check in.

It wont do much for folks moving wood for heat and lumber, but that is more localized anyway.

The initial reaction here was interesting. Quarantine, cut, and spray some areas. Notification to folks in the quarantined areas was non existent.

Unless you saw and read the tiny blurb in the local paper, or had reason to stop into the USDA extension, you didn't see or hear of it.
It's still that way, and it's still a shame.

As for port of entry, I am concerned with continued re-infestation, not who's state is to blame.

Detroit was where it was first discovered, but where did it come into the country, and what has been done to eliminate the possiblity of it getting here again? 

Another good excuse for standardized plastic pallets and cribbing I guess. No one is going to tell the Chineese to stop shipping or expect them to stop using ash pallets.

It's likely going to be a hard fight next year, as most states are going to further cut back on thier budgets, and the Feds are cutting back as well.

Good luck to ya!
Dingeryote

Some links for folks.
www.emeraldashborer.info
www.michigan.gov/eab


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## treevet

All good points Dingeryote,

Some of the difficulty in early detection is the initial hit is in the upper canopy. I search all the time for my town but in remote areas they are building up like rust (it never sleeps). Best of luck to you too.


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## treevet

Me searching with help and advice from my email contact Dan Herms. Negative again but sooner or later one of these suspicions will not be. This section of green ash, broken by our hurricane was a perfectly healthy tree and holes in the upper canopy. These are 2 suspicious conditions worthy of a little digging around. Take that back.....3 suspicious aspects....1. Perfectly healthy ash....2. Holes in the upper canopy....3. Green ash; a favorite target


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## treevet

ATH said:


> Lot of good points treevet. Mind if I expand a couple of thoughts here?
> 
> 
> 
> There is also the problem that it is difficult to detect in early stages of infestation. There were many areas across the "firebreak" that were infested before the firebreak line was even first penciled onto a map. WAY too much of our money was wasted on this long after it was obvious we were cutting a firebreak behind the fire. I was probably moved to MANY small pockets (likely throughout Ohio and Michigan, Chicago, etc...) before regulation #1 was written.
> 
> 
> Much earlier. It was discovered/identified in 2002. Probably there at least 10 years before it was identified. So yeah...the rest of us can blame it on Michigan. Northern Michigan can blame it on tourists, but they should start looking to Detroit tourists first, then to the rest of the tourists.
> 
> Yes, little public education/information has been a problem, but not the only problem.



Great points as well but not blamin it on Mich. If I were to blame it on anyone it would be the importers (not the Chinese, the borer doesn't faze their ash trees).


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## ATH

I have trouble even blaming the importer. NOBODY even knew this bug existed. They had to go to some guy in the Czech Republic to ID it, and there were literally 2 papers _ever_ published on it.

FWIW, to answer one of your specific questions, dingeryote: You asked: *....what has been done to eliminate the possiblity of it getting here again?*
ALL wood material from China are supposed to be treated (fumigated or kiln dried). USDA-APHIS enforces this. I think the Chines gvt. is responsible for signing off on this at point of export---so we can be certain beyond doubt that it happens every time as regulated.  I think that regulation was put in place in the late 90's after asian longhorned bettle was discovered = before EAB discovered, but probably after it was imported.

You also said:
_Another good excuse for standardized plastic pallets and cribbing I guess._
Gotta disagree on the wisdom of going from a cheap renewable resource that recycles in to mulch easily, and deomposes readily to a very very costly, non-renewable resource that is costly to recycle and breaks down very slow. (But that is another discussion, and likely involves philosophical ideals that end up being more opinion than fact and certainly aren't within the scope of this section of the forum....)


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## treevet

Also would like to point out that the long initial lag time (10 years was mentioned, I have heard many other periods) prior to discovery of the EAB was also partly to blame on the misdiagnosis of "Ash Yellows" as the decline until it was properly identified.


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## glennschumann

Thanks to a post elsewhere on this site by ATH, here is a helpful resource for learning about the EAB.

"Here is a link to some resources to help identify EAB and other common ash borers. Really, to know with pretty good certainity, you have to scrape the bark and look for S-shaped galleries. Your Dept of Agriculture (or whoever is in charge of pest detection) will want to know as will the USDAS_APHIS"
-ATH

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/identifyeab.cfm

Yes, I can see Ash trees from every window in my house and I'm terrified about what this next summer season may reveal.

Even though I own a 56" and 36" Alaskan mill, and am a wood worker, I really don't want this sort of program to expand...

http://www.risingfromashes.org/

Keep your fingers crossed, pray, educate everybody you know, sacrifice a virgin to the gods, do what ever you can to help prevent the spread of this problem.

Thanks again to ATH for the information.


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## treevet

We were in the same situation you are in about 3 years ago. Then things died down a little after all the hoopla. Now it has just been a waiting game for populations to build up....and they are probably, especially somewhere unmonitored. We have a site about 10 miles away.


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## Urban Forester

Not trying to sound negative here... I wish you guys in Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana (Minnesota by 2011) alot of luck, but, we have as a country, "closed the barn door after the horse got out". Next up: Sirex Wood Wasp, Hemlock Wooly Adelgid, Asian Long Horned Beetle, etc. etc. etc. :dunno:


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## treevet

Urban Forester said:


> Not trying to sound negative here... I wish you guys in Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana (Minnesota by 2011) alot of luck, but, we have as a country, "closed the barn door after the horse got out". Next up: Sirex Wood Wasp, Hemlock Wooly Adelgid, Asian Long Horned Beetle, etc. etc. etc. :dunno:



Honesty and truth can be a harsh reality but I am on the same page as you are Urban Forester. Time to cut losses and move on.


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## glennschumann

*EAB infestation in Wisconsin grows*

Yes, they have now decided that it has been here longer than previously thought, and it looks to be worse that it was previously reported. It looks like it is here to stay. Ash furniture / firewood anyone?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/41098782.html

Here is a link to a map with all of the local finds...

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...d=105906414343468490363.000464dbd86304ba5f608


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## Chad Schlise

*Eab*

Anyone know anything about Tree-age?


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## ATH

People got all giddey over a study (conducted on a golf course---think they put anything on the turf to control grubs?) published that showed it killed 100% of larvae in a few trees. The studies used it every year, but the marketer is trying to make it sound less costly by saying you can use it every other year but the less-biased experts I have heard all still say treat every year.

I am still using soil drench of imidacloprid for a few reasons:
1) Cost of the chemical is about 1/3 to 1/4 of tree-age
2) Doesn't wound the tree every year
3) Longer proven track record

I personally think it's best place is in treating trees with established infestation. I know a lot of folks are using it so we'll see over time...


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## Chad Schlise

Thanks, I use Merit too. I just had a hard time finding info. Now no need to surch any further.


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## glennschumann

*Now found on the west side of Wisconsin... near the Mississippi.*

Please see the attached link for an update, and a new find of the EAB in Wisconsin. Not far from IA or MN.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/42603362.html


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## glennschumann

*Milwaukee and nearby Cedarburg begin treating for EAB*

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/42749267.html


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## treevet

Damn, spending $600,000 of the public's hard earned dollars....not for eradication but rather for temporary protection. As usual the article sounds like the destructive insect is being attacked with an offensive campaign when in reality, like the Viet Nam war a defensive battle is being waged. This can never gain victory.

Spend huge amounts of money and when it can no longer be rationalized....that particular year...the populations that have built up in the woods and parks etc of untreated trees will fly on over and partake of the new dinners.

There is no eradication because of the nature of the insect unlike a leaf feeder such as gypsy moth etc that can be mass sprayed. Also the percent of control which is not a hundred percent like Ms. Mcullough states IMO when under heaviest pressure the ash trees will succumb even to a small percent of total hits when the numbers are a smashing into the windowshield high number.

$600,000.00 in these economical times yearly or every other year, that is a travesty.

Also they need to start early to gain success and likely a number of years will transpire with the whole truck load of money being totally wasted as the insects are not even in the area and are very hard to detect. They are playing around with soil drenches in my town on small trees now for 2 years and there have been no EAB found and I look every day. I am up in the canopy where they start. Waste of taxpayer's dollars.


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## Urban Forester

Hunting elephants w/a chipmunk gun...too many trees, spreading resources too thin, i.e. trying to save everything, all the same mistakes we made...


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## treevet

HUGE
HUGE PROFITS involved here with these senseless applications
HUGE


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## Urban Forester

Yes sir... it is about money, I think the makers of "tree-age" will be smiling all the way to the bank. If I remember the guys who make it are $ygenta... I think that's the right spelling?


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## treevet

Urban Forester said:


> Yes sir... it is about money, I think the makers of "tree-age" will be smiling all the way to the bank. If I remember the guys who make it are $ygenta... I think that's the right spelling?



You are right. And if anyone would know the truth it'd be you in your location.


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## ATH

Urban Forester said:


> ......trying to save everything........




Yep. Most retarded strategy ever. That means they are probably treating trees that should come down even if there is no EAB.


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## treevet

And the small trees that are hung on to with some kind of a pipe dream of hope are getting bigger every year, costing more to treat, and causing a bigger and bigger loss of canopy when the budget cut is enacted. 

All this time span is a loss of potential canopy of replacements that could logically have begun right now. Been there done that. Our forestry voted down the treatments and the govt. with the urging of a private national based company has opted to perpetuate the ash.....for now. Easy to do when there are no EAB in the area.....yet (10 miles down the road).


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## ATH

Yeah...I was pretty ticked when I saw out town trimmed small (less than 6-8" dbh) ash trees. Could have been one cut and into the chipper quicker than they spent trimming. Even more annoying is that the do plan to remove them all with time...why not start it now instead of trimming?


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## treevet

I have no evidence but it appears to be all a $ game. I am not familiar with how the system works but in our town after we voted down treatments and a staged removal plan,.....they formed a committee that had not met in a year and put 3 members from city council that know nothing about trees (as opposed to our UFB) but were all in favor of treatment and they voted in the treatments and leaving small dia. ash. I have seen this game played before in other subjects.

Maybe the more $ they gain in the budget, they can hold on to that even after a program such as this transpires and use it elsewhere. Just strictly a guess on my part. Or maybe there are more insidious reasons.....


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## Urban Forester

The people who are making the decisions (city councils/gov't) are greatly influenced by the 'experts' that are directly connected to the big chemical companies. Where do you think the money comes from for their research... gov't (APHIS+USFS = OUR tax $$$!) and chemical manufacturers. No one EVER asks the arborists/urban foresters that have been treating ashes since 1998. When EAB first appeared we fought those same groups (gov't agencies) tooth and nail when THEY said there is NO CONTROL, eradication is the only method that will work, scaring off our clients w/no viable research to support their claims. At that time there was no gov't supported research ($$$). Now they are ALL on the chemical control kick for EVERY ash they can find. The shift in revenue support is to blame. With the reduction in revenue from the feds in areas they believe are "lost causes" the "researchers" look to "other areas" to fund their "research". i.e. chemical companies. EAB wasn't even identified by one of them. A extension Plant Pathologist identified it. He recieved no funding because from the beginning he began contacting arborists to see if what they were doing was working. His research indicated that high value ashes that were treated prior to significant damage to the vascular system could be saved, because they have an amazing ability to compartmentalize damage and still keeping translocating both water/sugar-carbs and the injected product. Because of his stance he was pushed aside and other "experts' were brought in to take his research. Eradication has been an utter and complete failure as population density was beyond control AND due to the fact that ashes may not show symptoms for 2 to 3 years, many trees were passed by, as a strict list of "visable" symptoms was used by gov't survey crews. Had implementaion of treatment protocols been set in 2000 we could've saved many more ash trees. But "you can't fight city hall". But then again "city hall" never asked... Now w/the onset of the "stimulus package" (OUR tax $$$!) gov'ts are looking for ways to spend it. It would appear that everything but brains is being "stimulated".


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## RRSsawshop

Just like here in PA. "the plan is they have no plan" sad to see whats going to happen here !!! :monkey:


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## glennschumann

*Wisconsin takes step to deal with invasives*

While the EAB is only mentioned in this article, there is likely to be a wide ranging impact on any profession that deals with horticultural / native flora. Not sure what it means yet, but something appears to be on its way.

Story:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/43435592.html

List of species that is proposed to be regulated in Wisconsin:

http://dnr.wi.gov/invasives/classification/pdfs/species_proposed.pdf


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## treevet

We have a quarantine here on movement of firewood but no one is out there enforcing it. All winter I saw wood being trucked without being checked into non quarantined areas. My guess is they cannot afford to staff the positions and the cops don't want another job.


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## Urban Forester

I applaud Wisconsin for developing their 'Invasive List', however as 'Treevet' says "their is no one enforcing it". How many cops would know giant hogweed from a '74 buick, or care. They have their hands full w/other things. This is a typical gov't response, develop a plan(?) w/no way to implement it.


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## glennschumann

*Spread a little farther than first thought...*

Here is the latest in Wisconsin. 
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/44068972.html


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## treevet

They hang the traps, id the infestation areas, quarantine the county if not already done so and then...............what is the next move??????

Years ago they clear cut a 5 mile radius. Gave up on that one. 

Now it seems they are focused on protecting high value private trees with research and commercials. Maybe the research (government) is now funded by the commercials?? What do I know, I am just another onlooker (just like they are).


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## glennschumann

*Cutting EAB trees into lumber...*

Well, this is where we are at now...
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/44626312.html


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## treevet

Sounds pretty grim Glenn, but with as they say getting a lemon and making lemonade out of it (or something like that).

We in Cinci. are now in bloom of the Black locust. This is generally held as the timing of the emergence of adult EAB.


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## glennschumann

*Minnesota finds the EAB inside its state lines...*

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/45089472.html


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## Urban Forester

I didn't expect it in Minn. until 2010. Which actually should be saying to Wisconsin that they have a larger population than they think they do... You have to think that even w/"planning" that this insect will run to the edges of the Ash trees natural range.


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## treevet

glennschumann said:


> http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/45089472.html



That is a well structured article and includes all the frustration and give pause to consider the exponential effect that we are now witnessing and expected but hoped to be wrong about.

Arriving earlier than expected, showing up in places unannounced, areas over planted in ash, lack of funding compounding the bleak chances of eradication, dilemma of mass wood accumulation in the horizon but what to do with it as it spreads the infestation to move it.....no enforcement...etc etc.

Even under the best of circumstances, as Urban Forester said, insignificant eradication attempts are like pi$$ing in the ocean.


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## treevet

I posted this in another forum/thread but it might get missed there and this is all about helping each other thru this so here is some new info...






We have just days ago had a substantial new find of EAB in the Cinci vicinity.

Here is the website that prob has already been posted to go with it..

www.emeraldashborer.info


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## treevet

I visited the sites today and here are a few picts I took. No adults found as is common from what I hear.


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## treevet




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## treevet




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## treevet




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## treevet

have a few more but these give the idea of an early infestation. Since it is flight time they are keeping these up as a sink for eggs and after will cut them down (City of Cinci.). Thanks to Cinci. urban forester Matt ####man for directions and info. There were mass groupings of dead mature ash along a creek bed on Clough Pike that would number in the hundreds just from casual observation at a distance.

So strange, even eerie not to see any adults around.

I would love to hear from arborists in past infestation areas as to the progression and history of their areas as to what to expect. It seems so odd that it was discovered here over a year ago and then it went dead quiet for about a year after all the hoopla and now it is all over the news I heard. I got a little inside early info.


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## ATH

treevet said:


> ...........
> 
> So strange, even eerie not to see any adults around.
> 
> I would love to hear from arborists in past infestation areas as to the progression and history of their areas as to what to expect. It seems so odd that it was discovered here over a year ago and then it went dead quiet for about a year after all the hoopla and now it is all over the news I heard. I got a little inside early info.


Remember, they emerge all season long, not one mass emeregence. The adults just start their emergence/flight with the bloom of black locust. That was last week up here, so I suspect about 2-3 weeks ago for you -- that means there are still a lot of boogers to emerge. Not surprising that you aren't seeing adults.

As for progression: maybe a little hard to "track". Trees that I know are infested look good now. Trees that I drive by every day I would have said looked good 4 weeks ago, but they did not even put out leaves this year - but one right next to them did. I guess my point is that it is random for a couple of years. Then, next thing you know you are looking for the few live trees instead of the few dead trees...


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## treevet

I thought that was the case. The city forester from Cinci I am in contact with said it is seldom an adult is seen until trees are dead for miles around (none of them has seen an adult). He also said that in a tv report on Fri that I missed they did an interview and adults were flying around at the time of the broadcast. Let me try his name again....Matt Dockman (substitute an i for the o)


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## treevet

Breaking news this morning....Eab has jumped the Ohio lRiver and is now in Kentucky


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## glennschumann

*The latest report in Wisconsin*

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/51301552.html

At the bottom of the article... Milwaukee has treated 7500 trees!


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## treevet

I'd say the headline involving "EAB is contained" is misleading.


They must have some deep pockets ....$600,000.00 yearly.

Historically ash in the lawn space as they get older/bigger get weaker giving 2 strikes on future translocation. The economy may be another snafu.

What do you think about this Glenn?


----------



## glennschumann

*My thoughts...*

Well, I agree with you, TreeVet, "Contained" is misleading. From my days in fire fighting, a contained fire was still wrecking havoc on structure, forest, or prairie, but its scope was now limited, and barring the unexpected, all would be managed. 

I think that all communities where the EAB could reach need to accept the inevitable, and begin "pain management" as is offered for terminal cancer patients. I'm not an arborist in any sense, but it seems that the best option is to divert funds from treating, to replacing. Maybe a municipality with ash lined streets could plant other species between them, and when the inevitable happens (in 5-10 years or so for much of Wisconsin), some semi-mature trees will be started, and the clear cutting that happens won't just be replaced with twigs. It is more complex than that, I know.

For areas like parks, and civic structures, it may make sense to treat the ash there, until replacement trees have been well established, so that public amenities, and places are not decimated all at once. A good landscape architect could plan for the eventual removal of all ash trees, but over a period of time.

I think the forests are going to be hit hard here... I have a friend with forests that are in his estimation, 40 to 60 percent ash. The whole character, understory, etc, is going to change. He will, however, not have to decide if he needs to cut live trees for heating two years out. Firewood will abound. 

I worry about the character of the ash line streets... Everything from peoples shade plants to airconditioning bills will be affected with the loss of all the ash around here. Much of the ash planted here was a replacement for Elm trees lost to Dutch Elm disease years ago. Here we go again.

I don't think, however, that the devastation will be on the level of Jared Diamond's writing... where civilizations disappeared when the trees went away.

I have come to terms with the idea that life will be a bit different than the first (ahem) years of my life... EAB and thousand cankers disease; Muscle cars; rotary phones; East Germany; etc...The only thing constant is change.

I hope something good can come of this... maybe the municipalities can salvage the ash trees, and make park benches with planks milled from the logs... assembled by boy scouts, senior groups, or unemployed parties who want to still be contributing citizens (they can carve their name in the bench first). Extraordinary logs could be used to make conference tables, etc. (I do some wood working, and have an Alaskan mill for such things)

All in all, there is a time and place, and the EAB's time and and place seems to be here, now. Maybe this is just a reminder about our own fragility. I wish it wasn't so, but I've enjoyed the ash trees, actually, since I was young. (And Hickory, Sycamore, and Black Walnut)

To hopefully invoke the "Fair Use Act" to quote a favorite zen story:

Ikkyu, the Zen master, was very clever even as a boy. His teacher had a precious teacup, a rare antique. Ikkyu happened to break this cup and was greatly perplexed.
Hearing the footsteps of his teacher, he held the pieces of the cup behind him. When the master appeared, Ikkyu asked: "Why do people have to die?" 
"This is natural," explained the older man. "Everything has to die and has just so long to live." 
Ikkyu, producing the shattered cup, added: "It was time for your cup to die."


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## treevet

Very thoughtful post Glenn.


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB found in Green Bay*

Today, Brett Favre announced he will not be playing for the Vikings (Big news in Green Bay) but another Green beastie has moved into title town to keep everybody company.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/51881957.html

I'm waiting for an announcement to be added for Milwaukee county. There is a park along the river I bike through, and there are several trees that exhibit the dieback / sucker growth that goes with this. One of them has a trap in it. 

I'm not going to peel bark on a park tree to confirm. There are some round holes, but not clearly "D" shaped holes where I could access them. Maybe farther up the tree?

What are the other diseases / borers that can cause similiar symptoms?


----------



## treevet

Round holes may be Banded Ash Clearwing Borers and the oval holes may be Redheaded Ash Borers. 

Eab is very difficult to detect until a tree has been infested for at least a year because the larvae feed from the top of the tree first. When looking for EAB, it is important to peel off the bark to look fot the larvae and galleries. (but you need permission lst Glenn....good decision). Cinci. forester gave me permission and likely you can get permission also.


----------



## PB

I am not sure if this has been posted, but thought I would throw this up. It is recent as of July 1, 2009.


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## glennschumann

*Now in Kenosha*

Here is today's latest. 

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/53082857.html

On a positive note, also in the paper, the Door County cherry harvest looks good this year. The race now is to harvest before the weight of the fruit damages the trees.


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## glennschumann

*EAB in Milwaukee County*

The march goes on. 

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/55820367.html


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## glennschumann

The latest... 4 counties... one bug. I find it interesting that they have found no bugs in traps in Milwaukee County, but they did find larvae in at least one tree...Where there are larvae, there must be (have been) a beetle. The traps are not fool proof, but just another tool in monitoring. The article mentions plane monitoring too.


http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/56756567.html


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## treevet

glennschumann said:


> The latest... 4 counties... one bug. I find it interesting that they have found no bugs in traps in Milwaukee County, but they did find larvae in at least one tree...Where there are larvae, there must be (have been) a beetle. The traps are not fool proof, but just another tool in monitoring. The article mentions plane monitoring too.
> 
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/56756567.html



It starts real slow Glenn, contrary to all the hoopla in the media from my perspective. Think of maybe popcorn in the microwave as an analogy.

After all the buzz the first year here, the second year was dead quiet, and now in the third year there are some very heavy established infestations with a thousand trees maybe at one of them (Anderson Twp.).


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## Urban Forester

treevet said:


> It starts real slow Glenn...
> After all the buzz the first year here, the second year was dead quiet, and now in the third year there are some very heavy established infestations with a thousand trees maybe at one of them (Anderson Twp.).



That's a VERY typical pattern. At first point of infestation the Ash fights back against the attack, not showing syptoms (White ash show even less symptoms than Green Ash) however when the vascular system is comprimized to a certain extent epicormic growth starts. We (in Michigan) thought it was Ash yellows in '97. This begins the downward spiral. Judging from the pictures "Treevet" posted (I hadn't seen them until today) I'm looking at 3 to 4 years of infestation. I know that sounds crazy, but that's what I've seen here for the last 10. The original infestation in Plymouth Michigan was dated at 2000. Now it's being suggested that it may have been '92 even late 80's as the original date.


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## treevet

Interesting. Probably accurate (earlier actuality of infestation).


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## glennschumann

*EAB Strategies in Wisconsin*

Here is the latest summary of how various Wisconsin areas are attempting to deal with the critter. For those of you who live / work in long-infested areas, what are your thoughts about these approaches?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/63648487.html


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## treevet

It doesn't sound much different than what is going on here outside of being a couple of years later.

No mention of injection wound significance.


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## Urban Forester

Tree-age will work, so does merit. Prevention is MUCH better than waiting for infestation. Contrary to what you may have heard Ashes may not show visable symptoms for a couple years, until the vascular damage is critical. ANY injection process whether active or passive requires that the conductive system move the product to the upper canopy. EAB hits the 3/4" branches first. If the tree is badly damaged the product will simply not get to where it needs to go. "SLAM" would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. EAB doesn't give a rats a-- if the tree is stressed. Drawing EAB to a tree is like taking a shower w/a raincoat on. When this insects population gets to "X" they will hit ANY Ash. I've seen trees w/EAB exit holes in the buttress roots. I saw a dissected log where one feeding larvae had actually "crossed the path" of another larvae, cutting the larvae in half and continuing on. They feed non-stop (24-7) and don't quit until pupation. As far as injection site wounding, Ash have been slow to compartmentalize injection sites, why I'm not sure. If injecting grafted white Ash NEVER shoot into the graft area, shoot above it. The product will cause significant bark splits, it doesn't move. Also look for "C" shape notching in the leaves, on the edges, adults feed for 7 days b4 egg-laying. We foliar spray Ash w/Safari during that time. Finally from what I've seen in the last 9 years the damage done by EAB far outweighs the damage done by injection sites. It can't be stopped... it will run through the entire range of Ash in the U.S. All we can do is save some high value Ash. Good luck Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, New York, Maryland, etc. I've said it b4 I'll say it again "you're going to need it."


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## treevet

I do not see any fault in a private homeowner treating ash they love regardless of injection wounds and injections, whether it be EmBen or Immidacloprid IS the state of the art in treatments under when under heavy pressure. I do take issue with cities spending the public's more scarce dollars (in this economy) on treatments. The trees between the small tree lawn are often more stressed because of limited nutrients and quality soil and road salts impeding water uptake and smog and a myriad of other problems that will inhibit translocation.

You mentioned the entertaining image of a larvae eating right through another larvae or was it a pupae? I also read that quite often more than one insect is found in the pupal holes. It was a recent issue of City Trees (Muni Arbs) mag and I cannot find it to save my life. When I do I will post the reference as it also had another startling bit of information.

As you mentioned that the commonly accepted fact is that the phloem feeding begins in the upper canopy. I have thought that since 02. But this article about a town that was hard hit but never could find evidence in the form of larvae began searching and finding many larvae that had begun their feeding in the lower stem. Often they were found much deeper than expected as well. This just shows that the theory of small diameter limb initial attack is not wrong IMO, but that nothing much is consistent with EAB and it seems almost mysterious and eerie to me in some ways.


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## Urban Forester

treevet said:


> ...but that nothing much is consistent with EAB and it seems almost mysterious and eerie to me in some ways.



By far the best description I've heard. It does have a Stephen King feel to it, i.e. The Langoliers...


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## treevet

I went to a Arborjet seminar yesterday and it was quite a well planned production. It is supposed to now give nearly 100% protection for 2 years and tests are supposed to show 3 years residual in future data we are told.

Plenty of pictures showing their product results (thriving), other's stuff (half dead) and no product (dead) in infest. areas.

Couple of things to note. They have a monopoly on EmBen and it appears that the delivery system is the weak link in the treatment. The hole appears to be at least 2 or 3 times the dia. of Mauget and at least twice as deep. Little time for questions on die back of xylem and its significance although they have patented answers for everything. This answer is "look at sugar maple tapping and how trees survive that". Not really a fair comparison as they are in an ideal environment in the forest. 

Question: "What about having to continue treatments forever?" Answer.....When the heaviest wave of pressure passes through the treatment schedule can relax a bit. (how much? til they die?) 

It all seems very polished and maybe it IS the answer compared to just letting them die as other chems. do not test as well and a little infestation by EAB is kinda like being a little pregnant.

The equipment is quite expensive as are the chems.....$525 plus per liter. Equipment can cost as much $3,000. plus for top end and as little as $400. for entry level. But you cannot help but picture yourself turning blue in the face squeezing the handle trying to get the xylem to take the issuance with the cheapy set up. 

I am seriously considering it. Could be very profitable.

Best scenario IMO......Mauget gets the rights with their system to sell the EmBen.


----------



## ATH

How long to pattents last? 20 years??? This is a very new chemical, and I don't think ArborJet wants to break their deal with Syngenta, so I'd be surprised to see somebody else pick it up anytime soon. It is also a little high dosage for "typical" Maujet delivery systems (I think).

Regarding ArborJet's delivery, I have only used it a couple of times, but it is definately a weak link. The Quick-Jet is not too quick, and you do squeeze hard to get it out. The Tree IV is even slower. Maybe spring up-take will be quicker?


----------



## treevet

ATH said:


> How long to pattents last? 20 years??? This is a very new chemical, and I don't think ArborJet wants to break their deal with Syngenta, so I'd be surprised to see somebody else pick it up anytime soon. It is also a little high dosage for "typical" Maujet delivery systems (I think).
> 
> Regarding ArborJet's delivery, I have only used it a couple of times, but it is definately a weak link. The Quick-Jet is not too quick, and you do squeeze hard to get it out. The Tree IV is even slower. Maybe spring up-take will be quicker?



I certainly do not want to start a false rumor but.......isn't EmBen originated/formulated in China.....the same place that sent us this devastating bug? Seemingly extremely insidious connotations if this is the case. Have never heard this from anyone but my mind works like that.

Also, is anyone investigating, now that it has become licensed and legalized what the significance of this chem. is if persisting in the landscape? It has a 2 year residual and is claimed by distributors to eventually have a 4 year or more residual and what if, say, the tree dies from abiotic causes such as construction, end of life span, or just needs to be removed for a parking lot, etc. etc.? The wood is chipped up and used for mulch ofcourse? What then? You can only inject this chem. for a reason ya know.

I love a good dilemma or mystery or sinister situation to dwell on.

When first reading your post ATH, I thought it said "HOW LONG DO PATIENTS LAST?" and my first thought after that was all the dieback unexplained in some of the photos in the seminar and lack of xylem and blockage of access to stored carbs and what will they be like in "20 years" after multiple injection sites cause all this discolored (dead) tissue. Almost all of the photos they show are brand spanking new holes with no infection possible yet.

I also think it is a little high dosage for Mauget too but mass caps might handle this and this might be better than those huge holes. In the demo they take a 15" by 10" dia log (this case Boxelder....a strong conducter) to the demo site outside and drill an injection hole. Next they fit the cap in the hole that has a membrane.... and it also blocks escape of the miracle elixir. Next a small hypodermic needle is injected into the cap to break the membrane and it carries the liquid thru a pressurized line. If you were to just go by pictures you (and I have) might think that just the small hypodermic needle was the only wound caused (again really polished marketing).

In the demo they are using water which is a much thinner viscosity than the product and presto.....you see it shoot out both ends of the log (thru the xylem) like magic. Picture the crowd with little cartoon bubbles over their heads and in them the quotes "Wow that is incredibly easy.....got to get me some of that stuff and become rich".

But who is really getting rich....the mfctrs. and the distributors and, as usual, the "not real bright average run of the mill tree guy like me and you" are duped again into being the means to an end for vacations on beaches for others.yeeehaw


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## glennschumann

*An interesting article*

So, here come the wasps...

Seed storage seems like an interesting idea... any idea if this has been applied in other situations with success?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/64677507.html


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## treeman48507

ATH , the uptake will get better in the spring. There are little things you'll find that will help as you go. I have been using treeage for the last two seasons with very good results. It's very clear around here it's a do or die process. I have taken down many trees where other products have been tried. Pro-active is best.


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## treevet

treeman48507 said:


> ATH , the uptake will get better in the spring. There are little things you'll find that will help as you go. I have been using treeage for the last two seasons with very good results. It's very clear around here it's a do or die process. I have taken down many trees where other products have been tried. Pro-active is best.



Which applicator of Arborjet are you using Treeman?


----------



## treevet

ATH said:


> How long to pattents last? 20 years??? This is a very new chemical, and I don't think ArborJet wants to break their deal with Syngenta, so I'd be surprised to see somebody else pick it up anytime soon. It is also a little high dosage for "typical" Maujet delivery systems (I think).
> 
> Regarding ArborJet's delivery, I have only used it a couple of times, but it is definately a weak link. The Quick-Jet is not too quick, and you do squeeze hard to get it out. The Tree IV is even slower. Maybe spring up-take will be quicker?



I wonder if the highest dollar unit with compressed air is much faster?

I would be suspicious of xylem damage and maybe even cambium damage from displaced pressure that is also not entirely blocked by the plug.

I am on the verge of buying one of the systems. Has anyone noticed any calls from the website that links potential clients to Treeage users through the "contact us" button?


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## treeman48507

TreeVet,
I have used the I.V. kit and have found that proper plug insertion is critical. It's very easy to over pressure the system if your plug is not correct. I have considered the hydrolic kit also and had the same concern. At the price of the chemical, I prefered the I.V. system.


----------



## treevet

treeman48507 said:


> TreeVet,
> I have used the I.V. kit and have found that proper plug insertion is critical. It's very easy to over pressure the system if your plug is not correct. I have considered the hydrolic kit also and had the same concern. At the price of the chemical, I prefered the I.V. system.



Thanks Treeman.


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## treeman48507

TreeVet,
Please let me include that the plugs work good but must be used correctly. The plugs do "disappear" after 2-3 years as they may have stated.The other products they handle have worked well also.


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## treevet

treeman48507 said:


> TreeVet,
> Please let me include that the plugs work good but must be used correctly. The plugs do "disappear" after 2-3 years as they may have stated.The other products they handle have worked well also.



They were pretty good at explaining and showing the plug importance at the seminar. The noise of the hammer banging "changes" when they are in all the way. I brought home a dvd but have not looked at it yet. I dropped it on the floor and hope it is ok.

What stage of infestation are you in in your area of operation? Do you see them flying around during fly period? Are trees dieing all around you? 

We have a confirmed infestation about 6 miles from us and lots of ashes are iffy. My town decided to soil drench which IMHO is a waste of taxpayer's money. Easy to look like a good investment when no bugs around yet.


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## treeman48507

We are at maxium exsposure. EAB was confirmed here in 2003 ? We are at 60-70% dead and gone. Almost all that are not treated will be gone in 2 years. The trees not treated with treeage can have resistance to EAB and it will buy some time. The pest will choose untreated trees at first but...


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## treeman48507

BTW flying around is not something you might noitce that much if ever. Exit wounds and suckering is the clearist signs. The plug will shoulder itself when set fully causing the difference in the hammering sound .


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## treevet

Treeman, are there still some genetically superior big ash standing in defiance of the bugs with no damage like some elms do or if they are not treated then they die? I think it is 99 per cent dead in Toledo (may have city wrong) and in the eipicenter in Mich. (point of origen).

Was the removal aspect profitable like a hurricane would be? Don't hear much about this from anyone.

I bought a bc2000 last year just for eab removals predominantly. Hope it will pay off. Nobody around here is treating anything. Like you maybe they will when they see and hear it is in town. I have visited a few heavy infestations.

Please keep this thread posted with anything and everything you learn.

Thanks


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## treeman48507

There is something to be said about the rare genetic tree. I have one remaining that I have been watching that has just started to die with 40 dead for 4 years around it. Believe me any Ash trees around you will be dead. No one should expect they have the lucky tree. The Toledo area probaly has pockets of strugglers still around. They are probaly at a 80-90 % status.News reports sometimes state that all Ash trees are gone here. What can you say ? Yet theres not much time left locally.


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## treevet

Wonder if it would be profitable to follow the wave around like hurricanes? Esp into high income res. areas and universities and such. An opportunist is not always a bad connotation. Very few people into the real deal that is Treeage.


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## treeman48507

It's something to consider, even the removal side of that is to be considered. The economy has such a hold on things now days. I noitce your feeling a early season slowdown over on your crane postings. Thats a very good thread. Very good info coming in too. I will post pics a little later of a removal we did about two weeks ago using a sub 110' 34k . It's a front mount w/spider pads . Great unit . We have ground padding , the 120' 47"dbh Oak came out very well.


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## treevet

Look forward to seeing the picts Treeman.


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## ntsarborist

ya the ash bore is here heavy


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## treeman48507

Traverse City was hit pretty good from what I could tell too this weekend


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## treevet

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/09/15/f-wasps-emerald-ash-borers-biosurveillance.html

Something I found out from Brent Secord.


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## treeman48507

They have only one lab here in the US doing this in Brighton Mi. Theres been talk for years now but no release that I know of. The thought of too many oversized woodpeckers iswhat concerns me.


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## treevet

Do you mean from going after the wasps or the borers? Seems like this wasp, and I don't think they sting, would not become an invasive or nuisance?

And if you released them out of packaging you bought you would have to establish a home for them somehow to detect them bringing the dinner (eab) home? But this all may be do-able.opcorn:


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## treeman48507

The woodpeckers are eating the borers. They thrive and could cause an imbalance. They can become pest also.
The wasp will be able to migrate without problems to the eco-system it seems. They are probaly too little too late. But we can always hope for the best. Eab is very powerful.


----------



## treevet

treeman48507 said:


> The woodpeckers are eating the borers. They thrive and could cause an imbalance. They can become pest also.
> The wasp will be able to migrate without problems to the eco-system it seems. They are probaly too little too late. But we can always hope for the best. Eab is very powerful.



Yeah I agree with all that but the neat part of the art. involves taking the wasps to an area to DETECT the presence of eab which here to date has been rather clumsy.

Treeman, what do ya think about these guys that are selling the treatments with a 100% guarantee for 2 to 4 years? They sell them in the dormant season and how do they (along with anyone else selling treatments) cannot possibly know the vitality of the tree and its ability to translocate when looking at a dormant tree. 

Has to be unethical in this respect, don't you agree?


----------



## ATH

treeman48507 said:


> They have only one lab here in the US doing this in Brighton Mi. Theres been talk for years now but no release that I know of. The thought of too many oversized woodpeckers iswhat concerns me.


The USDA-APHIS has been releasing 3 different species for 2 or 3 years in MI and OH. Here is one  article from USDA indroducing the players.

I heard a talk a year and half ago by one of the lead researchers (out of Maine? or somewhere in the Northeast...). She didn't think any of them could 'catch up' with EAB...


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## treevet

Yesterday read that Dan Herms got a grant from the ISA to work on an Asian ash cultivar. Seems like eradication has taken a back seat. Polute the ground water, drill huge holes in the trunk, fill the air with predators that cannot possibly stem the tide......pipe dreams.


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## treeman48507

But yet theres only the one center breeding these. If it wae thought to be really effective they would have these little guys on overdrive ! lol


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## Urban Forester

The reality is the "grant" money, as long as it's out there people will be "willing" to research EAB, or any other invasive. Stopping invasives is not practical. The idea of resistant cultivars is probably the best way to go...


----------



## treevet

Urban Forester said:


> The reality is the "grant" money, as long as it's out there people will be "willing" to research EAB, or any other invasive. Stopping invasives is not practical. The idea of resistant cultivars is probably the best way to go...



Unfortunately I think often the money for grants for research on pesticides comes from the mfctrs. I have even read this from the mfctr's. mouth.

I think the cultivars are being developed with ash that have the strongest resistance to eab here along with the Asians.


----------



## treeman48507

It would be nice to inject something that would change genetics... but even those stronger trees don't last. Starving the borer out will be the only end. I hope threres never a secondary target for them .


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## treevet

treeman48507 said:


> It would be nice to inject something that would change genetics... but even those stronger trees don't last. Starving the borer out will be the only end. I hope threres never a secondary target for them .



That is what happened with gypsy moth. They ate anything and everything after their favorite meals were gone.opcorn:


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## treevet

Just received a reply from 2 lead researchers at Ohio State I have email contact with and they are both excited about this process.

One of them has a daughter that is monitoring a colony ( parasitic wasps) of them in an area where eab has not yet been detected for a HS project.

Glad to see some real cool thinking is going on around us.

They watch the wasp leave then they can time its return with eab and by timing it they can tell where/how far away .....the infestation is or is beginning by knowing the distance they can cover in a given amount of time.


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## treevet

A related article I just received from a friend....

http://www.cerceris.info/identification.html


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## treeman48507

Very interesting ! They need to get with it as soon as possible. But they better know the traits of the wasp, what a problem that might be. Ihope it's this easy.


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## Urban Forester

Nature has its own checks and balances. Sometimes they occur in the most fasinating ways.


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## techman

I have one tree that I have treated and have saved it from EAB. Is this tree now safe? (e.g. since the EAB has ate all the other trees, is EAB now no longer in the area?) I am in SE Michigan.


----------



## treevet

techman said:


> I have one tree that I have treated and have saved it from EAB. Is this tree now safe? (e.g. since the EAB has ate all the other trees, is EAB now no longer in the area?) I am in SE Michigan.



I think that is the hundred thousand dollar question. All these entities that are treating their trees have bought into the premise that after the wave passes they will be able to reduce or discontinue treatment and thus end or diminish expenditures. 

Plenty of sucker trees that are gonna spring up as epicormics to allow the species (eab) to endure. 

Also you have to worry just how well you have "saved" your tree and if some of the hits (none of these treatments are perfect) compromise the future of your tree. If your treatment was Tree Age then you have to wonder about the dieback in the vascular system and the cambium and what this means in the short run.


----------



## techman

treevet said:


> I think that is the hundred thousand dollar question. All these entities that are treating their trees have bought into the premise that after the wave passes they will be able to reduce or discontinue treatment and thus end or diminish expenditures.
> 
> Plenty of sucker trees that are gonna spring up as epicormics to allow the species (eab) to endure.
> 
> Also you have to worry just how well you have "saved" your tree and if some of the hits (none of these treatments are perfect) compromise the future of your tree. If your treatment was Tree Age then you have to wonder about the dieback in the vascular system and the cambium and what this means in the short run.



We used http://www.bayeradvanced.com/product/Tree-Shrub-Insect-Control/concentrate.html and seems to have been effective. This tree is in a good location to the house.

The reason I was asking,

1) Do I just assume that EAB will ultimately kill this tree, so cut it down and replace it, or
2) Keep treatment and save the tree, risking that the treatment might have bad side effects and kill the tree, or
3) Stop the treatment as the threat is gone.

I think you have ruled out #3, as I do still see suckers growing out of the "dead" EAB infected trees.


----------



## treevet

techman said:


> We used http://www.bayeradvanced.com/product/Tree-Shrub-Insect-Control/concentrate.html and seems to have been effective. This tree is in a good location to the house.
> 
> The reason I was asking,
> 
> 1) Do I just assume that EAB will ultimately kill this tree, so cut it down and replace it, or
> 2) Keep treatment and save the tree, risking that the treatment might have bad side effects and kill the tree, or
> 3) Stop the treatment as the threat is gone.
> 
> I think you have ruled out #3, as I do still see suckers growing out of the "dead" EAB infected trees.



It is just a decision you will have to ultimately make on your own. That homeowner's Bayer product is a lower dosage (allowing some insect damage) and you may have a genetically superior ash to still be alive in the midst of all the dead ones. But as the tree ages and increases in size the efficacy wanes. 

It may be in your interest to get as many days and months and possibly years as you can and if this is the case you are doing just fine. It can be removed just as easily once it dies as it can be preemptively. 

As for allelopathy or the harming of your tree by these chemicals ....it is unlikely as much research has been done on this (Immidacloprid).


----------



## techman

treevet said:


> It is just a decision you will have to ultimately make on your own. That homeowner's Bayer product is a lower dosage (allowing some insect damage) and you may have a genetically superior ash to still be alive in the midst of all the dead ones. But as the tree ages and increases in size the efficacy wanes.
> 
> It may be in your interest to get as many days and months and possibly years as you can and if this is the case you are doing just fine. It can be removed just as easily once it dies as it can be preemptively.
> 
> As for allelopathy or the harming of your tree by these chemicals ....it is unlikely as much research has been done on this (Immidacloprid).



Thanks for the information. Most of the ash here dies off about 5 years ago, we have been treating this one about that long. It's a nice tree and I would hate to loose it, hence the reason for the question.


----------



## treevet

techman said:


> Thanks for the information. Most of the ash here dies off about 5 years ago, we have been treating this one about that long. It's a nice tree and I would hate to loose it, hence the reason for the question.



Good luck. It is nice that you care so much about it. Don't forget other considerations such as pruning, mulching, watering , etc.

Keep us posted about your success with it and how about a summer picture?


----------



## techman

treevet said:


> Good luck. It is nice that you care so much about it. Don't forget other considerations such as pruning, mulching, watering , etc.
> 
> Keep us posted about your success with it and how about a summer picture?



I just trimmed a few of the lower branches as they were starting to get into the wires. We take pretty good care of this tree due to its' location. It's pretty neat to look back, the 2' maples that are in the foreground of the first picture are now over 30' tall. It also looks like the Ash has doubled in diameter.

Summer 2000






From Fall 2008


----------



## treevet

That would be a tough one to lose. Nice property Techman.


----------



## treeman48507

Techman, I sure hope the tree stays well. I have seen a few here near Flint that made it quite a while but... TreeAge will be there when the time comes.The Bayer treatments have helped the borer avoid you for now.Keep in mind one Treeage app. will protect atleast 3 years and treating before infestation prevents vascular damage. Very nice place there too.


----------



## techman

treevet said:


> That would be a tough one to lose. Nice property Techman.



Thanks. We have a lot of trees, but this one is great for the house.



treeman48507 said:


> Techman, I sure hope the tree stays well. I have seen a few here near Flint that made it quite a while but... TreeAge will be there when the time comes.The Bayer treatments have helped the borer avoid you for now.Keep in mind one Treeage app. will protect atleast 3 years and treating before infestation prevents vascular damage. Very nice place there too.



Thanks. I will check out the TreeAge, we have used the Bayer product yearly since 2000. We are keeping our hopes up.

I trimmed up the lower branches the other day, I normally just paint them to seal off the cut. Do you have a better recommendation?


----------



## treevet

techman said:


> Thanks. I will check out the TreeAge, we have used the Bayer product yearly since 2000. We are keeping our hopes up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may have said this before....but the efficacy of this product will diminish with increase in size of your tree (inevitable). And this is half the content (Immidacloprid) allowed in other products that are not directed to homeowner use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I trimmed up the lower branches the other day, I normally just paint them to seal off the cut. Do you have a better recommendation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't cut the branch collar. Do not use tree paint. It is a negative treatment.
Click to expand...


----------



## Urban Forester

techman said:


> Thanks for the information. Most of the ash here dies off about 5 years ago, we have been treating this one about that long. It's a nice tree and I would hate to loose it, hence the reason for the question.



Considering it's survived this long w/bayer, I doubt you need to worry about infestation now. Keep treating w/Bayer. I just got pricing on Tree-age for '10 its $535 a quart. You also would need one of the arbor jet systems($550 to $1,200) to inject it. If you had a co. inject it, it would run about $275 (good for a least a couple years). Seems like alot of money for one tree, Considering how well the bayer seems to have worked, if its not broke don't fix it.


----------



## treevet

Urban Forester said:


> Considering it's survived this long w/bayer, I doubt you need to worry about infestation now. Keep treating w/Bayer. I just got pricing on Tree-age for '10 its $535 a quart. You also would need one of the arbor jet systems($550 to $1,200) to inject it. If you had a co. inject it, it would run about $275 (good for a least a couple years). Seems like alot of money for one tree, Considering how well the bayer seems to have worked, if its not broke don't fix it.



I have been trying to make myself shut up about this but we can't agree on everything and IMHO I think as this tree is a good size specimen and healthy and growing larger all the time...

I would advise going with the double strength (Immid.) Xytec that is not nearly as expensive as a Treeage treatment but certainly much more dependable than the Homeowner's drench. It should not cost probably a third of the EmBen treatment from a private contractor.


----------



## Urban Forester

treevet said:


> I have been trying to make myself shut up about this but we can't agree on everything...



Good Lord, I depend on others opinions and input here. You guys NEVER have to worry about me being upset by well thought out or well intentioned opinions that differ from mine. I look to yours and "Treeseer's","S Mc", and others input on ALOT of topics. Besides trying to help others out, I come here to learn. For goodness sake keep up the good work!


----------



## treevet

Urban Forester said:


> Good Lord, I depend on others opinions and input here. You guys NEVER have to worry about me being upset by well thought out or well intentioned opinions that differ from mine. I look to yours and "Treeseer's","S Mc", and others input on ALOT of topics. Besides trying to help others out, I come here to learn. For goodness sake keep up the good work!



I am with you a hundred percent Urban Forester.


----------



## treevet

Today we were heading out to work in my pickup. My gm Kyle says look at that bug on my leg.....it looks like a little eab. I put on the glasses and damn if it didn't look EXACTLY like an EAB. So I emptied out a sealed clear plastic box I keep stuff in and put it in there and put on the lid and

there he is...in there walking around without a care in the world just like he was doing on Kyle's leg. 

We went out of the truck to prune for 3 hours and got back in the truck to leave and guess what ....he is gone. Box is empty with a sealed lid.

Just more fodder for the legend that is EAB :jawdrop:


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB news in Wisconsin*

Now that spring is back, more information about our little green demon...

An article about traps:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/91918514.html

and a discovery of the critter in West Bend... a few miles from the first infestation in the state.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/95974959.html

I don't know if it makes any difference for this bug, but we had a fairly mild winter (temperature wise) here in Wisconsin (My yellow bamboo survived (above ground) for the first time. Usually just the roots survive). Does this have any impact on the bug's spread to any body's knowledge? (I will not say global warming, but I might say La Nina)

I'm sure there will be more to come thought the coming months...


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB found in Cudahy*

Here is the link:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/97585664.html

This also says that there is a restriction on all hardwood firewood in the counties with Ash wood transportation restrictions.


----------



## ihookem

I was in Grand Rapids Mich this weekend and saw lots of ugly ash trees. Some were dieing from the bottom, some from the top. I saw these sick looking trees north of ####cago, Ill anoy. Does the bug kill from the top, bottom or both. By the time I got north of Milwaukee The tree were healthy for now. Also, do they kill real small trees too? I have hundreds of small ash trees growing naturally


----------



## ATH

Generally, EAB infested trees die from the top down. However, in really heavy infestation, they really all die at once.

Yes, small trees are killed as well - including those smaller than 1" caliper.


----------



## yooper

CALUMET -- The group of Michigan Tech researchers hoping to slow destruction caused by the emerald ash borer in Houghton County is turning to another insect for help.

The team is releasing hundreds of parasitic wasps onto dozens of infested trees in the Calumet Area.

The bugs are specifically deadly to the emerald ash borer and its eggs, but don't sting like regular wasps and are completely harmless to humans.

The wasps have been used in other infested areas--including downstate--but this is the first time they've been introduced in the U.P.

"The parasite will develop inside the emerald ash borer's larvae ultimately killing them. This is all a part of the slow ash mortality project, with the goal of reducing the rate ash trees die in areas where the emerald ash borer is established," said Andrew Storer, Forest Insect Ecology.

Team members have also begun injecting other trees with insecticides that should help protect them from the exotic beetles.

http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/news/story.aspx?id=480247


----------



## treevet

The wasps (just hundreds?) way too little, too late and will have little effect other than to fill the time clock card of the researchers.

As for the injections....once they are stopped (read expensive) they will be attacked and have no effect on eradication.....that is if the injection holes do neat lead to their demise.


----------



## ATH

treevet said:


> The wasps (just hundreds?) way too little, too late and will have little effect ........


That is what the lead APHIS reseracher said 2 years ago...but still they move ahead with it.


----------



## glennschumann

I missed this earlier this year... sorry for the delay. I'm not sure I agree with this, but I don't know all the details. Whitefish bay is made up of well to do folks - a very nice place to live, one of the nicest near Milwaukee.

http://www.whitefishbaynow.com/news/102731659.html


----------



## TreeKyd

ddhlakebound said:


> Thanks for the post. It mentioned in the link that EAB had also been found in the bootheel of Missouri.


 
I did some research for unisversity of missouri and we found it i belive it was greenvile missouri. Brought in on firewood at a campsite.


----------



## glennschumann

*New news in Wisconsin - EAB and wasps*

Most of last year was quite quiet on the EAB front, at least in terms of publicity, but this looks like the first article of the season here.

Wisconsin is trying an introduction of 3 types of wasps to see if it controls the EAB. This is being done at a nature center very close to one of the first outbreaks in the state. I'll let you all know more when I hear more. 

Have you heard of other states using this, and reporting back if they think it is successful, not successful or just providing interesting results? I'm curious.

Thanks

State to release Asian wasps to thwart emerald ash borers - JSOnline


----------



## glennschumann

*More information*

Here is a link to a new article about the wasp release. I'm just including the link (rather than copy and pasting the story) as the story seems to be updated on ocassion.

Does anybody have any direct knowledge about the effectiveness of the wasps on the EAB?

It's bug vs. bug in latest attempt to save ash trees - JSOnline

Schumann


----------



## ATH

It has been 2 years, but I was at a session where the APHIS researchers who were releasing the wasps spoke about them. She said they are certainly an effective preditor of EAB and only EAB but wasn't sure they could breed quickly enough to catch up and keep up with EAB.


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB in Raine County*

Thanks for the information ATH. I've been curious too if just by numbers, the EAB would stay a head of the wasps for 1, 5, 10 or more years till the populations of each reached an equilibrium. At that point, would the wasps keep the populations of EAB low enough to keep some trees, or will balanced population numbers require that the Ash tree is eaten up faster than it can regenerate? I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Here is the latest on EAB in Wisconsin... now found in Racine county, near other sightings.

Emerald ash borers found in Racine County - JSOnline


----------



## treevet

glennschumann said:


> Thanks for the information ATH. I've been curious too if just by numbers, the EAB would stay a head of the wasps for 1, 5, 10 or more years till the populations of each reached an equilibrium. At that point, would the wasps keep the populations of EAB low enough to keep some trees, or will balanced population numbers require that the Ash tree is eaten up faster than it can regenerate? I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
> 
> Here is the latest on EAB in Wisconsin... now found in Racine county, near other sightings.
> 
> Emerald ash borers found in Racine County - JSOnline


 
By next summer we will have full blown eab. We have found eab signs in every weak or dead ash we have worked on this year...D holes and serp. galleries, etc.. Last week we took out 2 mostly dead green ash which had mass D holes, mass eliptical cankers with serp. galleries, interior full canopy of sprouts and then we had adults flying around when we began cutting off branches (first time we have seen this) and found larvae without trying very hard. 

All the infested wood is in my lot and will be split and sold this winter. Legally. 

City ROW trees are infested in some parts too.


----------



## PJM

There is supposed to be wasp release very soon (next week or so) in New York as well. They are going to release them at the first find in Randolf, Cattaraugus County. Sorry, but I don't know much more than that right now.


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB found in La Crosse Wisconsin*

The latest in the saga in Wisconsin.

Emerald ash borers found near La Crosse - JSOnline


----------



## r&r

I've heard EAB was found at a truck stop in Knoxville, TN and has since spread to within 5 miles of VA. So much for slow the spread efforts.


----------



## glennschumann

*A new strategy in Wisconsin*

Some here in Wisconsin are trying the seed preservation route. I'm curious if this has been done successfully with other species to create a viable population after a decimation. If memory serves, Thoreau mentioned "species that we haven't seen for 20 years" growing from under a house that had been burned or removed. This leaves hope that after EAB runs its course, some seeds might be moved to conditions to grow inadvertently by construction, farming or the like if somebody pulls the plug on the cryo-seeds sitting along side various frozen people who also wait to be "reanimated".

The genetic modification of ash mentioned here does make me wince...

Ash tree recovery plan sprouts - JSOnline


----------



## Zac

I live in Geneva Il, and one thing I have noticed, as about 2/3 of the ash have died and been removed, is that it, is all the green ash. The white ash all appear perfectly healthy. Just something to consider before anyone starts cutting down all their ash.


----------



## Urban Forester

White Ash don't show symptoms as soon as green, but they are also attacked.


----------



## glennschumann

*Latest Strategy to Deal with EAB in Wisconsin*

In Whitefish Bay (an near north suburb of Milwaukee), they are planning on removing what sounds like 'some' street ash trees to deal with our little green friend. They are also planning on treating others. We haven't hear much about EAB recently in WI, but maybe this summer season will bring out reports on how this is evolving here.

For your reading pleasure:

Whitefish Bay signs contracts to manage emerald ash borer problem - WhitefishBayNOW


----------



## treevet

You wonder how things will transpire as you wait for all this to unfold. We have been doing a tremendous amount of treatments this year to go along with the removals of last and this year. 

An observation may be that treatments run along income levels. The more wealthy will be more apt to pay the price and the less fortunate more apt to opt for the removal. It actually feels kind of good to be part of the 2 entities that grant a nice ash life as opposed to death. They finance it...we provide the inoculation. We are so heavily infested that if you snooze they lose by not being able to translocate by next year in all probability, the vascular system being so compromised.

Black locust, Robinia, in full bloom here. Really too late for liquid soil injections...better get your trunk injections or bark sprays in if you have contracted them.


----------



## glennschumann

*Cost of EAB... about a grand?*

The price of emerald ash borer? One man knows - JSOnline

This pseudo article tells of one man's costs to have EAB damage repaired...


----------



## glennschumann

*Wisconsin to maintian while Fed relaxes restrictions on Ash wood / debris movement*

An interesting article in JS Online about how Wisconsin is going to maintain the current restrictions, while the Fed is reducing it's restrictions to allow easier movement in continguous EAB infested zones.

I do support Wisconsin's position on this now, but I'm curious as to who lobbied for this change at the federal level... the national crating and palleting association or the like?

State to keep ash, firewood restrictions - JSOnline


----------



## PJM

NY too is holding the line against easing the movement restrictions. NY has not yet (though there is pressure from the forest products association and even some from the regulators themselves) quarantined the whole state. Currently there are two separate quarantine districts, one for WNY and one for the Hudson Valley.

APHIS' change is said to mirror their approach for gypsy moth, but no doubt there was some lobbying from the forest products industry and economic development councils.


----------



## ashevilletree

PJM said:


> but no doubt there was some lobbying from the forest products industry and economic development councils.



Wouldn't be the least bit surprised.


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB now in Walworth County*

Emerald ash borer hits Walworth County - JSOnline


When I began to read this, I noted to myself that Lake Geneva is a "Get away" for many Illinois residents, and this may be how the little green beetle made its way north, rather than West as a "Wisconsin only" view might indicate from previously investations. The article seems to support this theory. I'm not sure that it takes actual wood to move the insects, as the beetles can hitch a ride in a camper, in a trunk, or on a car's radiator, but what does it take to have a self sustaining population? Could traffic from / through a heavily infested area be enough to spread the bug even without transporting wood? The question is probably moot as there will be no restrictions on travel through a quarantined zone. My only hopes are that the spread is slowed enough to give time for somebody to develop an "airplane treatment" that municipalites could choose to purchase, and that somebody develop a killer biomass system to heat homes / develop electricity to make use of the ash mass being produced.

Still looking for the silver lining...

Schumann


----------



## treevet

Airplane treatment is not going to ever work on an under the bark feeder Glenn. Take a cold weather locale like Wisc., add the quarantine meant to help but not help the area where it is in effect, add the exponential increase of the infestation and movement of eab laden firewood only permitted initially in that location and what you get is a disaster of uncontrollable proportions. Only those that can afford to pay an ever increasing rent/treatment cost for their prized ash will enjoy that shade but the pleasure will wear off quickly and progressively with the burden of payments (that also increase with tree growth).

We've got it real bad but the word from Dan Herms is it is gonna get much much worse.


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB found in Waukesha County and Port Washington*

The reports seem to be rolling in now... This is the county where I grew up, and a few miles from where my parents still live. (They have very few ash, but lots of red oaks and the blight to go along with them)

Emerald ash borer hits Waukesha County - JSOnline

Thanks to TreeVet for the reminder that airplane treatments would not work. 

Maybe we could have unmanned drones fire Tree-age missles at Ash trees in infected areas. We start a multiplayer gaming website so all the gamers out there are our labor to "man" the drones, Google Maps provides infected area locations, and marks each tree that is innoculated, and the government would supply drones to us with the understanding that they are just being used for a war on "little green bugs" (making citizens happy to see them), but they contain all the listening / surveilence equipment that the government wants. Like an old time arcade, players pay 25 cents to play (funding ArboristSite.com) and they can play 'till they miss an Ash tree or aim at a passing politician's motorcade. A little flag sticks in the tree advertising Tree-age (or competitor) and the chemical companies pay for the naming rights of each flag (our revenue). Everybody wins, right? : )

Schumann


----------



## glennschumann

*EAB found in Janesville and Bong Recreational area in Kenosha County*

The local infestations are revealing themselves at a rapid pace now...

This article also has information on how funding for treatment is changing...

Ash borer spreading rapidly while funds to fight pest dry up - JSOnline


----------



## bepperb

*EAB in WI*

The article is kinda misleading when it states the "money to fight EAB is drying up" because actually the money wasn't used to fight it, it was to detect it. And that was IMO a failure since the purple EAB detectors aren't where the reports are coming in. Recently one was found on a windshield and another by a gardener. If anything the money should be spent on public education on how to ID and who to call and forget the ineffective traps. 

With the exception of the predatory wasps no money has fought anything. I'm blown away the state doesn't have a program for this. Our Waukesha County extension office website has nothing on EAB or who to contact locally for questions or anything. I would think an effective extension office could have a list of arborists who treat trees, information on the available treatments a homeowner can try, at least a link to an article somewhere else about it. This is a public problem that really needs government leadership but our DNR isn't at all effective on this. The only people spending money are local governments trying to save street trees.

It's about 10 miles from my house now, will be an interesting three or four years.


----------



## treevet

If it is 10 miles from your house you should already be treating. A good local ISA Certified Arborist (one that has experience and works on trees daily) will be able to tell you when it is IN your n'borhood. Hope this is helpful. PM me if you'd like with any questions. Or just ask me on here.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/files/multistate_eab_insecticide_fact_sheet.pdf


----------



## glennschumann

*Confirmed in more locations in Kenosha County*

The latest discoveries...

Emerald ash borer in two new spots in Kenosha County - JSOnline


----------



## ATH

bepperb]It's about 10 miles from my house now said:


> If it is 10 miles from your house you should already be treating. A good local ISA Certified Arborist (one that has experience and works on trees daily) will be able to tell you when it is IN your n'borhood....



I don't need to be local...I can tell you that if there is a known infestation 10 miles away, I'll bet it IS in your neighborhood now. You need to make a decision whether to treat or not: are the trees "worth" keeping anyhow? Will you miss them, or are there other trees in your landscape to fill in the void? How much will treatment cost (plan on doing it perpetually)? How much would removal cost, etc... If you decide to treat, I agree with treevet, you need to treat ASAP - but don't put tree-age into a drought stressed tree as label warns of phytotoxicity. If you want to go that route, hold off until fall for treatment. If you are hiring the work done, make sure you know what they are treating with and what rates they are using...that can make a big difference in efficacy and price. I'd also add that if you decide to have them removed, I'd probably do that now as well for 2 reasons: (1) dead ash are a pain to clean up and (2) you can get something else going sooner than later.

treevet, what part of Ohio are you in? I am in NW...any 'first time' calls to treat the ash are too late in this area. A couple of new clients talked me into treating last year despite my best efforts to convince them it was too late. Those trees did not fare will at leaf-out this spring.


----------



## treevet

ATH said:


> I don't need to be local...I can tell you that if there is a known infestation 10 miles away, I'll bet it IS in your neighborhood now. You need to make a decision whether to treat or not: are the trees "worth" keeping anyhow? Will you miss them, or are there other trees in your landscape to fill in the void? How much will treatment cost (plan on doing it perpetually)? How much would removal cost, etc... If you decide to treat, I agree with treevet, you need to treat ASAP - but don't put tree-age into a drought stressed tree as label warns of phytotoxicity. If you want to go that route, hold off until fall for treatment. If you are hiring the work done, make sure you know what they are treating with and what rates they are using...that can make a big difference in efficacy and price. I'd also add that if you decide to have them removed, I'd probably do that now as well for 2 reasons: (1) dead ash are a pain to clean up and (2) you can get something else going sooner than later.
> 
> treevet, what part of Ohio are you in? I am in NW...any 'first time' calls to treat the ash are too late in this area. A couple of new clients talked me into treating last year despite my best efforts to convince them it was too late. Those trees did not fare will at leaf-out this spring.



I am in sw ohio ATH, remember? We're buried in the ####e. New word from researchers...used to be 40 percent canopy degradation by eab and still treat...now changed to max 20 percent canopy degradation to where you can still treat. Interesting news on the phytotoxicity in drought of Treeage...not as if I'd use it anyways.

I am treating procrastinators and news ignorers with Mauget Bidrin Injecticide B (fast mover but don't use at beginning of season as insufficient residual) and having people water before during and after treatment and have seen what appears many trees standing pat in infestation areas. Follow the label. If unsure contact local rep on the website.


----------



## R2D

Just south of Kenosha and I will say this, the EAB is devastating! Even the trees that are being treated don't look to good. Most find it cheaper to remove rather than treat. This beetle seems to be unstoppable


----------



## treevet

Yeah my village in opposition to our ufb went total treatment with soil drench a few years ago and were the toast of the town esp. one individual new arborist who got citizen of the year from all the bleeding heart liberals round here. Saved even very small dia. ash.

Easy to do when little or no Green Menace in the hood.

Many treatment failures and they have gone to the macro expensive Treeage on large ash.

Trying to get the costs of these treatments from them but they seem reluctant to give it.

Think they had a couple of hundred trees treated with Safari/Dino for free with the (loss leader?) Valent Legacy Program...but I can't imagine they will treat these trees for free on an indefinite basis.


----------



## R2D

treevet said:


> Yeah my village in opposition to our ufb went total treatment with soil drench a few years ago and were the toast of the town esp. one individual new arborist who got citizen of the year from all the bleeding heart liberals round here. Saved even very small dia. ash.
> 
> Easy to do when little or no Green Menace in the hood.
> 
> Many treatment failures and they have gone to the macro expensive Treeage on large ash.
> 
> Trying to get the costs of these treatments from them but they seem reluctant to give it.
> 
> Think they had a couple of hundred trees treated with Safari/Dino for free with the (loss leader?) Valent Legacy Program...but I can't imagine they will treat these trees for free on an indefinite basis.



Indefinitely is the key word there. I know a residence that is spending big $$$ trying to save two large ones. I will ask them what they are paying. Some states that can now prepare better for this EAB and will hopefully have better results.


----------



## treevet

R2D said:


> Indefinitely is the key word there. I know a residence that is spending big $$$ trying to save two large ones. I will ask them what they are paying. Some states that can now prepare better for this EAB and will hopefully have better results.



If it is a "large" ash and my company is treating it (and we treated many of them) it is gonna cost you from $300. to $350 per year to treat. These HO's haven't flinched at the cost to relative importance of these trees to them either.

Have bid competitively with TreeAge on numerous jobs and have found their treatment is approx. 2times the cost for 2 times the residual (more than 2x the injection wound too!). They are talking a 3rd year of efficacy but do not think it is being marketed. I found some 2 year EmBen treated ash into the 3rd year untreated with some D holes this spring (homeowner's statement on last treatment).


----------



## bepperb

*Soil Drench*

I'm the "EAB is ten miles from my home" guy, or at least one of many. I only have one tree I plan to treat, it's a Black Ash about 8" DBH that's not horribly valuable but it is in my front yard. To be blunt it's not a 3000 dollar tree so I'm not willing to pay an arborist to come treat it every year or two for the next decade. I plan on being in this house for 20+ years and the huge total cost with no guarantee of success isn't assuring. My plan will be to use an Imidacloprid soil drench on it because of price but also it's something I can do myself.

My street is named "White Ash court" which is kinda funny since there are a ton of native Black Walnuts that I assume somebody thought were Ash and named the street. That or they bulldozed some down to lay the asphalt. Either way because of the name a few people have planted some in their yards but at most they are 12 years old and none are very large. I'd assume if someone gets a 300 dollar estimate for two years of treatment they'd just replace a 4" DBH tree. But maybe we can try the low cost treatment and see where things go.

I do know the soil drench isn't really effective until the second year and I missed the opportunity this spring but it was 40+ miles in May, 10 miles in June. I'll probably treat in fall when the drought ends and again in spring and hope for the best.


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## ATH

bepperb,
find a source for bulk generic imidacloprid - it is probably 1/5 the cost of the Bayer stuff you can buy at Lowe's or Walmart. It has a long shelf life, so you can keep if for several years. You may be able to get it from a local farm co-op. Even the name brand Merit will be a lot cheaper in bulk than the retail stuff. I like the 2F formulation, because it is easy to measure out small quantities. Then consider treating fall and spring every year until the "main wave" on infestation has passed. If you only treat once per year, definately use the higest labeled dose. If you treat twice per year, I'd still consider the highest dose, but you may go down to 75-85% of that max. When you treat, pull the mulch/turf away from the trunk of the tree to expose the root flare a little and make a little trench. Slowly pour the mix in 1-2 gallons of water in the trench - I usually make 2-3 trips around the tree letting it soak in slowly.

I would point out that this is a long-term venture to treat an easily replaced tree...but I understand that you want to treat because of the street name. If not for that name, one other option that I have proposed to some clients is to plant a new tree now then only treat the ash until the replacement tree is big enough.


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## ATH

treevet said:


> I am in sw ohio ATH, remember?....
> 
> New word from researchers...used to be 40 percent canopy degradation by eab and still treat...now changed to max 20 percent canopy degradation to where you can still treat...
> 
> Interesting news on the phytotoxicity in drought of Treeage...not as if I'd use it anyways.
> .....


I thought you were down that way, but not sure how close to the heart of the infestation of that area you were - sounds like you are probably seeing it just as bad as we are. How close are you to the ALB problem?

re: 40% canopy decline...yeah, I doubted that when I heard it. The problem is that you can still keep the tree alive, but it gets a little worse every year, or at best it does not grow enough new branches to make up for the loss.

re phytotoxicity: I guess the label technically doesn't use the word "phytotoxicity"...just says treating during drought stress can "may result in injury to tree tissue". Either way, don't do it.


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## glennschumann

*EAB in the City of Milwaukee*

City of Milwaukee Mayor Barrett had a press conference at the site on the NW side where EAB was found.

They're here!

Emerald ash borer found in City of Milwaukee - JSOnline

Does anybody know specifically where this is? I'd be interested in seeing the debarked trees / galleries in person.


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## glennschumann

*EAB located in more areas of Walworth county (Lake Geneva area)*

A few more confirmed sightings of the bug have been publicized today, both in trees and traps.

State reports new emerald ash borer sightings in Walworth County - JSOnline


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## glennschumann

*EAB found in WI across the Mississippi from an infestation in MN*

Emerald ash borer hits Trempealeau County - JSOnline


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## glennschumann

*Madison Wisconsin is making plans for EAB...*

Madison prepares for 'inevitable' emerald ash borer invasion


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## tooold

We have a local garden center saying on the radio that their bayer drench product WILL SAVE trees. For a tree you can barely get your arms around, with 70% eab damage, their product will save it. It only costs $20 a year too! The way they were talking on the radio, they sounded like they were peddling snake oil.


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## ATH

You MAY be able to take EAB out of a smaller tree with 70% damage...but you still have a tree that has lost 70% of its canopy. What would you tell somebody who had a healthy tree but lost 70% of its canopy in a storm? I'd tell it it is toast. Long term survival is unlikely (there are plenty of other stressors besides EAB that the tree will face), and it will never be a good looking/strong tree again - EAB starts at the top so you loose the top/center first.

I guess as a retailer, they are just looking to sell product. As a service provider, I don't flat out refuse but I go on a pretty hard sales pitch to NOT treat those trees. I know they are not going to be happy with the results, and I don't want to take somebody's money for 2, 3, 5 years just so they can be disappointed at the end of it all.


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## glennschumann

*At least they are talkin about it...*

Germantown made the local news for EAB ... not much news, but at least they are talking about it.

Germantown discusses attack plan for emerald ash borer


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## glennschumann

*Now Beloit falls to the borer...*

Emerald ash borer detected in Beloit

Home town to my alma matter gets the little green bug.


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## glennschumann

*Now in Polk county at Mirro Lake State Park*

Emerald ash borer found at Mirror Lake State Park - Local News - Milwaukee, WI | NBC News

And on a side note, I've seen Whitefish Bay (Neighboring town) mark, remove, (and presumably to replace) a collection of semi-mature ash trees on the parkways in the area. All looked healthy, and only Ash seemed to be targeted in the neighborhood.

Schumann


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## glennschumann

*Other sightings (and ideas) in the area...*

Milwaukee set for bigger infestation of emerald ash borers

Two new communities hit by emerald ash borer - JSOnline

Jefferson County added to emerald ash borer quarantine list

Emerald ash borer prompts removal of 20 trees from Mirror Lake : Wsj

Madison is going to get into the lumber business...

Madison officials hope to make better use of trees expected to die from pest : Wsj


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## glennschumann

Now noted in Janesville (close to Beloit as listed above). Didn't think we'd find this in the dead of winter, but somebody is still looking out for the health of trees there. Yeah!

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wiscon...nd-near-janesville-b99173015z1-237607451.html

Schumann


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## blades

Milw. is systematically removing Ash trees. Contracts have been let out, catch is, tree out and replanted with some other species. As I doubt anyone is taking the time to debark I believe it is all getting chipped up, Huge piles of chips on the county grounds. Far more Dangerous is the ALB as it feeds on anything. Already reported in Chicago Region which means it is likely here in Wi as well. Another gift from China.
Had an Ash on my lot that I took down shortly after purchase, all the classic symptoms, Conservatory area behind me - city ( Brookfield) hasn't done squat back there and I have seen the green bug. That was before the various reports around South Eastern WI.
About all anyone can do at this point is to save seeds and start over in about ten years, won't eliminate bugs but maybe we wont be totaly treeless as to some species. This isn't something any Gov entity is going to do so it will be up to private organizantions or personal.


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## ATH

blades said:


> ....Far more Dangerous is the ALB as it feeds on anything. Already reported in Chicago Region which means it is likely here in Wi as well....
> .......
> About all anyone can do at this point is to save seeds and start over in about ten years, won't eliminate bugs but maybe we wont be totaly treeless as to some species. This isn't something any Gov entity is going to do so it will be up to private organizantions or personal.


2 separate things to address:
1) ALB has been eradicated from Chicago for 5.5 years. That is no small statement. APHIS will not declare an area eradicated until they look ,and do not find the bug for 3 years. If they find one bug or evidence of, the clock restarts (as I understand it...). They have continued to monitor for it since, and have not found it.
1a) EAB and ALB are 2 ENTIRELY different beasts. Yes, the list of trees ALB attacks is scarier, but it does not move nearly as fast or kill trees as quickly. In addition to Chicago, NJ has also eradicated ALB, so it is doable. I don't know of any eradication efforts that have worked for EAB. So, I will disagree that ALB is more dangerous (but reserve the right to change my mind, should knowledge of the bug change...just because of the long list of species!)

2) USFS is collecting ash seed.


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## kyle1!

They are finding EAB in eastern IA and even the town of Dayton whicih is close to me is starting to take down Ash trees. Why don't they just wait to take the tree down when it dies?


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## blades

kyle1! said:


> They are finding EAB in eastern IA and even the town of Dayton whicih is close to me is starting to take down Ash trees. Why don't they just wait to take the tree down when it dies?


 Death of tree is result of bug activity , to reduce spreading take away what harbors the offspring namely the Ash trees


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## kyle1!

But it has not been effective in stopping EAB so I am curious why they don't just wait for nature to run its course. You might get a few more years of shade in the yard from those Ash trees. I planted alot of Ash 10-12yrs ago and they are starting to get big. Didn't really think I was planting firewood at the time.


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## ATH

Kyle, you are right, that reducing the ash does not help stop the spread. If that is why they are doing it, it is a poor strategy. However, I do think it wise to proactively remove trees. There are probably trees that were so-so anyhow (there always are...any species). Hopefully these are the first they take out. The bigger issue is that if the city has a lot of ash trees, and they wait for them to start to die, trying to remove them all at once has a few major downfalls. First, it will crush a city budget quickly. Secondly, without hiring several contractors, there is no way they will be able to keep up with the trees as they die. Third, if you know the trees are going to be gone (nothing indicates EAB will be stopped), you might as well get something else going sooner than later. Again, this is a budget issue...but it also gives at least a tiny bit of diversity in age structure of the municipal forest.

If they have paid attention to other cities and are basing the decision to remove looking at what others have had to deal with, they are probably making a good call. I wish my city would have. The previous mayor said (quote) "We'll deal with that problem when it gets here". He was out of office by the time it did...so I guess it worked out OK for him - maybe that was his real motivation. We knew the impact it was going to have based on other towns around us. We had a lot less time to plan than others...but could still have gotten a 2 year head start on it (he wouldn't even support an ash inventory so they knew how big of a problem it was going to be).


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## kyle1!

The small town of Dayton (500-750 population) that I mentioned has 329 ash trees according to the local paper. I guess I wasn't looking at it from a budget standpoint and that will cost them alot of $$ to remove, both private/public.


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## RedArrow

Thanks for all the info guys.
I've been looking into treating Ash in my area. (north central MN)
Nice to hear all sides of this from different areas. EAB hasn't been found in my area _yet..._ so I appreciate your first hand accounts of dealing with this.


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## glennschumann

Well, the upshot of this "Polar Vortex" that ran through the upper states a bit ago, is that it may cut back on the EAB population. 

Story from MPR outlining a few details.

http://blogs.mprnews.org/updraft/20...out-high-percentage-emerald-ash-borer-larvae/

Schumann


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## ATH

We discussed that back in January: Here
I wouldn't count on the freeze making any big difference with EAB - especially in the long-term.


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## R2D

R2D said:


> Indefinitely is the key word there. I know a residence that is spending big $$$ trying to save two large ones. I will ask them what they are paying. Some states that can now prepare better for this EAB and will hopefully have better results.


Been a while since i checked in to AS. Mike just north of Chicago. The two large trees I spoke of were treated at nearly 400 each! By the end of 2013 the owner asked me to remove them along with a couple others that were not treated.

Soil drench 6-10" ash seem to be holding on for now. Still some side effects are showing of being infected. 




treevet said:


> If it is a "large" ash and my company is treating it (and we treated many of them) it is gonna cost you from $300. to $350 per year to treat. These HO's haven't flinched at the cost to relative importance of these trees to them either.
> 
> Have bid competitively with TreeAge on numerous jobs and have found their treatment is approx. 2times the cost for 2 times the residual (more than 2x the injection wound too!). They are talking a 3rd year of efficacy but do not think it is being marketed. I found some 2 year EmBen treated ash into the 3rd year untreated with some D holes this spring (homeowner's statement on last treatment).


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## ATH

I know a few arborists who are going 3 years. The research entomologists are saying "maybe" 3 years. Not enough research to say for sure yet. I think what may happen is if you do 2 year treatments for about 3 cycles, by the time the next rotation comes, there are not many live trees left, so the EAB population is crashing - so maybe that 3rd year is OK because there is not as much pressure??? I would NOT go 3 years at the start when under the full force of EAB pressure.


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## R2D

So i have heard in recent studies there is proof that the EAB is trying to lay eggs in elm and black walnut. BUT there is NO proof that the larvae is thriving or surviving past egg stage. 

ANYONE hear anything similar?

I have seen an EAB on a black walnut. I have also seen holes that look strikingly similar to EAB holes in black walnut. I sent photos to the state of Illinois. They said it cant be Eab. 

Only time will tell i guess.


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## PJM

Care to share these recent studies?

While it is known that EAB in it's native range occasionally attack other non-ash species, including walnut and elm, previous studies in North America (http://originwww.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/jrnl/2006/nrs_2006_anulewicz_001.pdf) suggest that while EAB may lay eggs on non-ash species, the larval are unable to complete their development.

Note also that there are 171 documented species of _Agrilus_ in North America. I believe all of which will leave the charactheristic D-shaped exit hole and have similar serpentine larval feeding galleries. Could it have been some other jewel beetle?


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## R2D

It was out of Michigan state university. Still it says exactly what you and I have said, no proof of larvae survival on any other tree.


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## Marine5068

glennschumann said:


> Well, we are the 10th state (province) to find the EAB. Just for reference, they found it one county north of Milwaukee. I hope the pesticides help...
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=779618


Southern Ontario/ metro Toronto area has destroyed over 100,000 Ash trees that were infected with E.A.B.
From what I've read there really is no foreseeable way to stop the insect short of developing new sub-species of Ash that are not prone to attack. Scientists are working on it now.


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## blades

eab is only one, Long horned is not species specific an poses an even greater threat.


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## ATH

But it hasn't played out that way. EAB has not been stopped - or even slowed for that matter. There are several spots where ALB has been successfully eradicated, and more where the battle against it is on the way to being won. It doesn't kill the tree as quickly so it doesn't need to go looking for new hosts. It does not fly as well so it can't spread as quickly on its own.

The only way it is a "greater" threat is the longer list of species it attacks...otherwise it has been proven a lesser threat - but not a threat to be ignored or dealt with lightly! In fact, I think ALB deserves a more aggressive wide scale program than EAB because those programs work for ALB where they have failed for EAB.


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## Jason Douglas

Agreed on the ALB point. That dude could be super devastating.
I'm in Columbus Ohio where EAB hit pretty early in the game and generally speaking, the lone survivors have been treated with emmamectin or are very very isolated.


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## Tom Crosthwaite

Wow sorry to hear of these problems over there, it must be very devastating, I hope the budget allows for a solution soon that allows for affected tree removal, although I'm not sure if that would solve the problem. I'm glad we don't have these problems in Australia, we have enough tricky tree removal problems on the Sunshine Coast in Australia http://trickytreesolutions.com/


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## treeseer

We don't have a lot of ash here in NC but the green bug has arrived nonetheless. From what I read and hear, drenching works on smaller trees but larger trees have to be injected for effective control. 

Is this true? Why or why not? What diameter is the threshold? I have a few big ash trees under my management, and I Hate to drill if I don't need to.


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## Jason Douglas

15" is where you have to increase your imidacloprid 2F dose from 0.2 oz per inch to 0.3 to 0.4. Thats why we lost so many large ash early on because we were basically underdosing them because they hadn't changed the label yet.

I would say trees over 20" or so are injection worthy.


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## sherryliu

thanks for your post. i got it


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## redpowerd

Where do I go to get information treating my ash here in NY? imidacloprid isn't available here. Thanks


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## ATH

redpowerd said:


> Where do I go to get information treating my ash here in NY? imidacloprid isn't available here. Thanks


Treating yourself? Try the local Extension office.

Hiring someone else: https://www.treesaregood.org/findanarborist/findanarborist

Tree-age works great if you hire it and gives multiseason control. Dinotefuran (Safari or Transtect) works well and is easy to apply, but is expensive. Abacide-2 is also a decent option.


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## newforest

I can pass along some things I have learned and observed recently. 

I live in NW lower MI, about 200 miles from where EAB likely first began to spread, 20 years ago. The active “front” reached us quickly and was particularly devastating on the Green & Black Ash in riparian corridors where they made a high % of the stand composition. White Ash mortality was more slow to develop as they are generally around in much lower #s on upland sites, farther apart. But eventually most of those succumbed too. 

My area was also one of the very first to have the Asian predator wasps released; probably because it was the first National Forest affected by EAB. This was 15 years ago already. 

Finally last year I was able to get some answers on how that turned out. The Asian wasps are effective - but they have only managed to reproduce on about 40% of release sites. Iirc, there are 3 species of these wasps. Also, raising them for release has some challenges but is not impossible. Bottom line: they do work. 

Even better news is that North American varieties of such wasps have begun adapting to the presence of EAB and begun feeding on them too. As of course other predators such as birds have as well. It is worth recalling that there are Ash species in Asia and EAB can’t operate in a way that extirpates it’s host species after all. 

These days, what I see while out on the land is encouraging. There is generally a strong presence of Ash in the seedling layer on Ash sites. There has always been a minimum required diameter of around 3” to a stem below which the borer can’t attack the stem as the grubs are just too big to fit between the bark and cambium on still small stems. And occasionally a small Ash can still produce a seed crop before it has EAB infestation. 

But what I am seeing now is more and more pole diameter trees, first at 4-6”, then at 6-8”, including on some riparian sites where I fish. This spring I worked on a northern hardwoods site with a lot of White Ash mortality over the previous decade, but also a whole lot of young Ash coming up now. Some of these were in the 8-10” class and were 100% healthy, many with yet another seed crop on the way. 

So overall I am optimistic about the future of Ash, and I think it will recover better than some of our other species being attacked by much smaller exotic insects or fungal/viral pathogens.


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## blades

Well that is some good news for a change. Hopefully the Ash will recover but it will be beyond my lifespan. EAB was in WI some 6 or more years before the WI DNR made any comments about it which means that it was here in the late 90's to early 2000's. On my own propery I took down several ash the were in fact attacked by the borer around 2015


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## Lionsfan

newforest said:


> I can pass along some things I have learned and observed recently.
> 
> I live in NW lower MI, about 200 miles from where EAB likely first began to spread, 20 years ago. The active “front” reached us quickly and was particularly devastating on the Green & Black Ash in riparian corridors where they made a high % of the stand composition. White Ash mortality was more slow to develop as they are generally around in much lower #s on upland sites, farther apart. But eventually most of those succumbed too.
> 
> My area was also one of the very first to have the Asian predator wasps released; probably because it was the first National Forest affected by EAB. This was 15 years ago already.
> 
> Finally last year I was able to get some answers on how that turned out. The Asian wasps are effective - but they have only managed to reproduce on about 40% of release sites. Iirc, there are 3 species of these wasps. Also, raising them for release has some challenges but is not impossible. Bottom line: they do work.
> 
> Even better news is that North American varieties of such wasps have begun adapting to the presence of EAB and begun feeding on them too. As of course other predators such as birds have as well. It is worth recalling that there are Ash species in Asia and EAB can’t operate in a way that extirpates it’s host species after all.
> 
> These days, what I see while out on the land is encouraging. There is generally a strong presence of Ash in the seedling layer on Ash sites. There has always been a minimum required diameter of around 3” to a stem below which the borer can’t attack the stem as the grubs are just too big to fit between the bark and cambium on still small stems. And occasionally a small Ash can still produce a seed crop before it has EAB infestation.
> 
> But what I am seeing now is more and more pole diameter trees, first at 4-6”, then at 6-8”, including on some riparian sites where I fish. This spring I worked on a northern hardwoods site with a lot of White Ash mortality over the previous decade, but also a whole lot of young Ash coming up now. Some of these were in the 8-10” class and were 100% healthy, many with yet another seed crop on the way.
> 
> So overall I am optimistic about the future of Ash, and I think it will recover better than some of our other species being attacked by much smaller exotic insects or fungal/viral pathogens.


Good info. I'm at the Tip of the Mit and our woodlot mirrors your findings. I cut the last of our mature White Ash into firewood last weekend, but if you look around there's a fair amount of new ash growth mixed into the floor with the other hardwoods and there's a few healthy saplings taking off here and there. I won't be here to see them reach any significant size, but I'm confident that they'll be back for future generations to harvest.


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## ATH

Lionsfan said:


> Good info. I'm at the Tip of the Mit and our woodlot mirrors your findings. I cut the last of our mature White Ash into firewood last weekend, but if you look around there's a fair amount of new ash growth mixed into the floor with the other hardwoods and there's a few healthy saplings taking off here and there. I won't be here to see them reach any significant size, but I'm confident that they'll be back for future generations to harvest.


I see carpets of ash seedlings. I am not as confident as you that those will make it. But the info that @newforest posted about the parasitic wasps is encouraging...so I hope you are right!


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## Squidward

It hit SW Ohio and Northern Kentucky some years back. Urban property I sold was skirted with nice, mature ash. Maybe seven trees, originally. We lost one double trunked tree to wind damage, not the EAB. Cut another due to trunk rot. But the remaining five I used either an injection or drench, and kept the borer at bay. Sold it to younger couple, first thing they did was cut down two front shade trees. Go figure. 

On current 59 acres, I have maybe a 5-6 acres stand of woods, then a smaller bunch of trees lining a swale. All hardwood, some ash, some oak. 
You can see some dead trees, and I've cut down a few, but not as many as you'd expect.


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