# Mastermind Meets The Echo CS-355T



## Mastermind (Feb 24, 2013)

I've had this saw sitting here in the box for a few weeks now. I hoped to have the Echo CS-610EVL done before I started this one, but it ended up needing an oil line and that stalled us again on it. 

I really want to be able to take some time to do a through job on dissecting this little bugger......it has loads of potential. 







It's a well designed unit.....fits in the hand very naturally. Jon ran it for a few minutes and decided he needed one. Up till now the Stihl 200T has been the only top handle saw that has interested him at all. 






I think this is Jon's way of saying we have voided the warranty.


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## Mastermind (Feb 24, 2013)

This is a non strato, clamshell designed saw that's very light and nimble. We ran it several minutes and were impressed as hell with the snappy throttle response and power that it has. 

Jon's stripping her down so we can see what the designers gave us.






Spur drive here......I would like to see a rim instead but who am I? 











I'm really liking the side exit exhaust. The way this was achieved is total genius on the part of the designer......I like the oil pump drive too.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Here's a couple of shots of the exhaust outlet.........simple and efficient. 











Nothing out of the ordinary here.


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## moody (Feb 25, 2013)

opcorn: I'm fond of the smaller saws or the "pecker pole prunners" as my logger friend refers to them.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

I've been in a lot of saw engines.....but this is the first time I've seen crank stuffers in a clamshell. 






I bet transfer velocity is smoking fast on the thing. Now wonder it's so snappy.


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## deye223 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm in :Eye:^:Eye:


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Now here's something that caused me to stop and stare for awhile......
















Note that the ports are not centered with the crankshaft in the "normal" manner.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Big damn pistons in these huh? Notice that it doesn't have a cheesy stamped rod? 






There's that offset again.......


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Grinding........


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## deye223 (Feb 25, 2013)

hey randy whats this


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

These were the little buggers that made me scratch my head......I wondered why they crammed these in the transfer tunnels.






I also wonder what happened to my camera settings.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

deye223 said:


> hey randy whats this



Sealer.....


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm using a different camera and a lot of my pics of the porting didn't come out very well......here's a few more that did.


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## deye223 (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> These were the little buggers that made me scratch my head......I wondered why they crammed these in the transfer tunnels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



them and the stuffers to keep the velocity up ???????

don't mind me just thinking with no knowledge


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

I didn't want to disturb the flow velocity of this tight design too much so I just opened the entrance to the auxiliary transfers some and widened the uppers. The intake was widened and lowered a bit and the exhaust was raised a fuzz and widened. For got muffler pics but it's an open can so modding it is a breeze. 

I don't think we should widen this any more at all......


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## watsonr (Feb 25, 2013)

Increased pressure/velocity and probably why they used stuffer's too.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

deye223 said:


> them and the stuffers to keep the velocity up ???????
> 
> don't mind me just thinking with no knowledge



That's what I determined too Darren.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Increased pressure/velocity and probably why they used stuffer's too.



So you agree that throwing hem away would be a mistake? :msp_biggrin:


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## ckelp (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> So you agree that throwing hem away would be a mistake? :msp_biggrin:



so how are going to pipe it?


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## watsonr (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> So you agree that throwing hem away would be a mistake? :msp_biggrin:



Yep... figure out how to open the intake earlier to take advantage of the velocity. An earlier opening also means decreased velocity as the charge may not build to its full potential.... but you should see larger volume.... and more power!


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Yep... figure out how to open the intake earlier to take advantage of the velocity. An earlier opening also means decreased velocity as the charge may not build to its full potential.... but you should see larger volume.... and more power!



Opening the intake 3° sooner.


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## watsonr (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Opening the intake 3° sooner.



I like it!


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## Rudolf73 (Feb 25, 2013)

I have been looking at these echo's lately, wouldn't mind trying the rear handle version...


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> I have been looking at these echo's lately, wouldn't mind trying the rear handle version...



Everyone needs a top handle in their arsenal.....


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## Rudolf73 (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Everyone needs a top handle in their arsenal.....



This is true and I have stocked up on a few :msp_wink:


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## Scooterbum (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> So you agree that throwing hem away would be a mistake? :msp_biggrin:



Think they were put in the meet EPA?


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## thomas1 (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I didn't want to disturb the flow velocity of this tight design too much so I just opened the entrance to the auxiliary transfers some and widened the uppers. The intake was widened and lowered a bit and the exhaust was raised a fuzz and widened. For got muffler pics but it's an open can so modding it is a breeze.
> 
> I don't think we should widen this any more at all......



I thought you just bought a bunch of new t-shirts?


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## excess650 (Feb 25, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I thought you just bought a bunch of new t-shirts?



He needed shop rags or snot rags.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## MCW (Feb 25, 2013)

Hey good stuff Randy. Any pre mod videos? I've been watching these little saws with some interest but as yet nobody has convinced me they are as good as a 200T despite some claims being made around the traps.



thomas1 said:


> I thought you just bought a bunch of new t-shirts?



Looks like he flexed his biceps and stretched the arse out of the fabric. Or a man boob fell out the side - thats what happens to me anyway...


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## mountainlake (Feb 25, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> I have been looking at these echo's lately, wouldn't mind trying the rear handle version...



Same insides as the CS370 CS400 except the stuffers, sure wouldn't think they would make any power with those small tranfers. Steve


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## excess650 (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Big damn pistons in these huh? Notice that it doesn't have a cheesy stamped rod?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That "offset design" must be their "Vortex Boost". They have been using this since intoducing the CS370/CS400. I'm thinking more intake charge on one side casues the mix to swirl. The fact that there is no cat in the muffler and 300 hour EPA compliance suggests that they burn rather cleanly, so the design must be working. I noticed the single ring piston...opcorn:

What I DON"T like about the CS370/CS400 is the fact that they weigh as much as a Stihl 026! The older, small Echos (3450/345/346) were 7.5# powerheads. My Makita/Dolmar DCS401(39cc) is 8.8# with MAG CASES!(and plastic handlebar:msp_thumbdn


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## mountainlake (Feb 25, 2013)

A CS400 with a 16" [email protected] full ready to cut wieghs 13# on a good scale and handle real nice. Steve


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## IEL (Feb 25, 2013)

Man, you guys are making me want a tophandle now..... And it hasnt even beenj a week since my last saw....


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## Miles86 (Feb 25, 2013)

Nice saw- the overall design and engine are very close to the Tanaka TCS-3401s, but that one has 2 channel transfers not the 4 channel like the Echo.


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## timmcat (Feb 25, 2013)

*Port Stuffers*

The port stuffers need to be in there according to Echo. We did a teardown on that saw at service school last fall and the stuffers were a point of debate. The instructor couldn't tell my why, but he could tell me the saw lost alot of power and rpms if run without them. 

The canted cylinder porting comes from Shindaiwa influence, they have had the twisted layout in the 285,300,352,360, and 377 saws since the eighties.


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## Edge & Engine (Feb 25, 2013)

Another word on the transfer stuffers. The engine in the CS-355T is the same basic design as the CS-350T, a model that has been in use in the EU for several years now but has never been sold in the US. However, the stuffers are unique to the US model CS-355T and according to Echo gives it something like a 16% boost in performance. (I may be off a bit on that number, memory fails me:msp_sneaky I have also heard say that the saw will run without them, but will be down on power.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Scooterbum said:


> Think they were put in the meet EPA?



I don't think so Steve......they appear to be added for optimum direction and velocity. 



MCW said:


> Hey good stuff Randy. Any pre mod videos? I've been watching these little saws with some interest but as yet nobody has convinced me they are as good as a 200T despite some claims being made around the traps.



Oh yeah.....we got videos..... :msp_sneaky:



Edge & Engine said:


> Another word on the transfer stuffers. The engine in the CS-355T is the same basic design as the CS-350T, a model that has been in use in the EU for several years now but has never been sold in the US. However, the stuffers are unique to the US model CS-355T and according to Echo gives it something like a 16% boost in performance. (I may be off a bit on that number, memory fails me:msp_sneaky I have also heard say that the saw will run without them, but will be down on power.



I treaded carefully on the mods to the transfers......it plain to see that some insane engineer didn't just shoot from the hip with this thing. 

A lot of guys seem to think they know much more than the designers of these engines......I just try to tweak what's there rather than reinvent the wheel.


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## Hddnis (Feb 25, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I don't think so Steve......they appear to be added for optimum direction and velocity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Looking good. I'm liking everything I see and learn about these new little top handles.

My dealer doesn't have one in yet, but he said his spring order will have one for me. I almost just got one shipped, but this dealer has taken real good care of me and is just a nice guy to boot, so I want to give him the sale.

On the funny shape of the piston: I think that is simply for the top handle configuration. The Stihl 192t has some really weird stuff with it's piston too. I like the stuffers and inserts, shows that perfomance was part of the design process. I'll bet there are gains aplenty to be had because Echo still has to meet EPA substandards. The wide open muffler is a nice surprise.



Mr. HE


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## stinkbait (Feb 25, 2013)

If you have time to tear the saw down a few more times, I think that it would be worth it to test it with and without the transfer inserts.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

First cuts.....


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Modded in cherry.....


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Modded in oak......


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Muffler modded 200T in cherry.....an average of .25 second faster.....


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## Scooterbum (Feb 25, 2013)

stinkbait said:


> If you have time to tear the saw down a few more times, I think that it would be worth it to test it with and without the transfer inserts.



I'll second that.
It does look a lot like the 350T inside I had awhile back.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Scooterbum said:


> I'll second that.
> It does look a lot like the 350T inside I had awhile back.



I believe I'm happy with it as is Steve. I used it to noodle and buck up a small maple into firewood. I just noodled into it bar length then cut that off.......it held RPM very well even with the bar buried.


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## Zombiechopper (Feb 25, 2013)

It looks real good Randy. 

It's interesting that it needs to be ported to be slower than a stock 200T though  

Now calm down Echo folks. I do think this is a huge improvement over Echo's past top handles. They learned from their awful mistakes it seems. I'm going to recommend this one to my bud. It looks like a worthwhile product. 

I may have missed it somewhere, but is this saw rev limited?


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Zombiechopper said:


> It looks real good Randy.
> 
> It's interesting that it needs to be ported to be slower than a stock 200T though
> 
> ...



Well we must be totally honest in our reviews and threads on these saws Jeff. The Echo is a fine saw.....it really is. 

The muffler modded 200T is a fast little ##### though......

After some run time I do think this 355 will be right with it though. 

Rev limited? Good question......my tach crapped out so it couldn't use it to find a cut out point.


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## timmcat (Feb 25, 2013)

Yes on the rev limiter, 14,800 or 15,200 I think. The one I have as a demo runs 14,500 and 4 strokes.


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## Hddnis (Feb 25, 2013)

Zombiechopper said:


> It looks real good Randy.
> 
> It's interesting that it needs to be ported to be slower than a stock 200T though
> 
> ...





Well, it wasn't a stock Stihl, muff mod really helps a 200t. From an economics standpoint the Echo with a mod costs the same or less than a 200t or 201t and all indicators are that it would outperform the 201t. That is how tree guys will be looking at it. 

As an interesting side note I was going over in my head all the climbers I know or have met and I can only think of a few that run stock saws. Almost every one of them, regardless of what they run, opens the muffler and pulls the limiters off the carbs, and many of them do a woods port or have one done by a saw builder. 



Mr. HE


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## MCW (Feb 25, 2013)

Good stuff Randy. Modded it would be a worthwhile addition for the price.
I did honestly think though that modified it would give a 200T a good rogering. Just goes to show how far ahead of time the 200T/020T was.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

MCW said:


> Good stuff Randy. Modded it would be a worthwhile addition for the price.
> I did honestly think though that modified it would give a 200T a good rogering. Just goes to show how far ahead of time the 200T/020T was.



Well it would be a better race after the Echo has more than a half of a tank through it.


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## 7sleeper (Feb 25, 2013)

Looks like now is a good time to start dumping the Stihl TH, as long as the market is still hyped......

7


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## Zombiechopper (Feb 25, 2013)

Hddnis said:


> Well, it wasn't a stock Stihl, muff mod really helps a 200t. From an economics standpoint the Echo with a mod costs the same or less than a 200t or 201t and all indicators are that it would outperform the 201t. That is how tree guys will be looking at it.
> 
> As an interesting side note I was going over in my head all the climbers I know or have met and I can only think of a few that run stock saws. Almost every one of them, regardless of what they run, opens the muffler and pulls the limiters off the carbs, and many of them do a woods port or have one done by a saw builder.
> 
> ...



Yes, but a stock 200T can be muff modded and still be stock just by removing one screw and taking out the spark screen cartridge. You can muff mod it and keep the warranty intact  Not that it matters any more regarding the 200T but it sure was an important point at one time. 

Or, Randy did you mean by muff mod on the 200 that you opened up in addition to removing teh spark screen?

I really like the domed piston on this thing. And I have to say the quality of that cylinder looks superb. What are the squish and comp numbers?


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## Zombiechopper (Feb 25, 2013)

7sleeper said:


> Looks like now is a good time to start dumping the Stihl TH, as long as the market is still hyped......
> 
> 7



Uh, so a guy can have some money to pay to have the echo ported? Not sure a guy would even come out ahead on the deal. Stihl is still the only option for a mag cased saw as well.

I really really wish we were talking about the T540XP when comparing this echo. Oh well. One day. Or not....


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## hoeyrd2110 (Feb 25, 2013)

i pretty sure this whole build randy did showed a very mildly massaged with a half tank thru it 355T can hang right with the legendary MM'd 200T. only time will tell when someone steps up on the porting once we all get more comfy with the different port configuration and it's quirks if it can ever claim the top spot. 

no need for anyone to start a pissing match over hurt brand feelings in an otherwise informative thread...

THANKS RANDY FOR AN EXCELLENT BUILD THREAD


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

Zombiechopper said:


> Yes, but a stock 200T can be muff modded and still be stock just by removing one screw and taking out the spark screen cartridge. You can muff mod it and keep the warranty intact  Not that it matters any more regarding the 200T but it sure was an important point at one time.
> 
> Or, Randy did you mean by muff mod on the 200 that you opened up in addition to removing teh spark screen?
> 
> I really like the domed piston on this thing. And I have to say the quality of that cylinder looks superb. What are the squish and comp numbers?



Yes that 200T had the muffler opened and the dividers milled out, along with some extra opening.....the screen ain't ever going back in that muffler. The base gasket is gone too. 



hoeyrd2110 said:


> i pretty sure this whole build randy did showed a very mildly massaged with a half tank thru it 355T can hang right with the legendary MM'd 200T. only time will tell when someone steps up on the porting once we all get more comfy with the different port configuration and it's quirks if it can ever claim the top spot.
> 
> no need for anyone to start a pissing match over hurt brand feelings in an otherwise informative thread...
> 
> THANKS RANDY FOR AN EXCELLENT BUILD THREAD



I've found that on some saws less is more....way more. You might do more grinding and go backward on this saw fast.


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## hoeyrd2110 (Feb 25, 2013)

i gotcha. so it's a very dynamically balanced motor from the get go. thats good to hear. once you get more tanks thru it could you give us a fuel consumption opinion. 

apparently my mind thinks i need my IRS money to go towards a top handle now:hmm3grin2orange:


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## millbilly (Feb 25, 2013)

Nice job!


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## excess650 (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm not a top handle kinda guy, but thought this to be an interesting thread. The little Echo is definitely stronger than its reed valve predecessors. I'm curious as to how much just a MM and retune would have helped.

I just checked and MSRP runs $449-$459, and of the (3) listed on the 'bay, the lowest is $400 shipped. These are not exactly inexpensive little critters.


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## barneyrb (Feb 25, 2013)

Question because I'm too lazy to research this question but is there any CC difference between the Echo Echo Echo and the Steal?


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## mt.stalker (Feb 25, 2013)

No disrespect intended , the Echo looks to be a good saw .
200t is obviously a great saw .
After seeing the video's , I'm feeling really good about how my mm'd 338xpt cuts . 
I'm running it a tad rich at 14,200 , it seems a little torqeier than the echo looks , but then again , we're splitting hairs ......


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## o8f150 (Feb 25, 2013)

i think i am going back to echo after seeing this:msp_rolleyes::msp_rolleyes::msp_rolleyes:


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## arborealbuffoon (Feb 25, 2013)

Nicely done thread sir! Thank you for your efforts. Takes some courage to present certain topics to a highly critical and brand loyal crowd.

I just recently started my exploration of the Echo th's. I certainly like what I see from your thread. In actual use in the air, I have been favorably impressed.

I too await the mystical (mythical?) new Swedish arborist's saw.


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## Mastermind (Feb 25, 2013)

arborealbuffoon said:


> Nicely done thread sir! Thank you for your efforts. Takes some courage to present certain topics to a highly critical and brand loyal crowd.
> 
> I just recently started my exploration of the Echo th's. I certainly like what I see from your thread. In actual use in the air, I have been favorably impressed.
> 
> I too await the mystical (mythical?) new Swedish arborist's saw.



I've got a bunch of guys wanting to see the inside of the 540........

I wanna see how this Echo pulls after say 20 tanks.


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## zogger (Feb 25, 2013)

barneyrb said:


> Question because I'm too lazy to research this question but is there any CC difference between the Echo Echo Echo and the Steal?




E=35.8
S=35.2


Not much

ha! For the loot I have in it (20 bucks), and looking at the vids, my s25cva green brick still looks good!


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## hoeyrd2110 (Feb 25, 2013)

zogger said:


> E=35.8
> S=35.2
> 
> 
> ...



now adding a S25 would sure be interesting...just for old times sake


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## hqv (Feb 26, 2013)

Not bad. Run pretty great. Like it. :msp_biggrin:


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## 7sleeper (Feb 26, 2013)

Zombiechopper said:


> Uh, so a guy can have some money to pay to have the echo ported? Not sure a guy would even come out ahead on the deal. Stihl is still the only option for a mag cased saw as well.
> 
> I really really wish we were talking about the T540XP when comparing this echo. Oh well. One day. Or not....



What I have read is that the Stihl TH are going for way over one grand, so that would make the purchase of three Echos unmodified or two modified ones a viable option.

7


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

7sleeper said:


> What I have read is that the Stihl TH are going for way over one grand, so that would make the purchase of three Echos unmodified or two modified ones a viable option.
> 
> 7



I will ship anywhere too. :msp_thumbup:


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## pgg (Feb 26, 2013)

mmwwaaahahah TOTALLY unimpressed, the backyard boys are sitting here trying to match the echo as equal or better than the real-deal saws, tellin ya, despite the far-removed-from-the-real-world cookie cutter vids and the clueless clueless backyard crowd like hddnis and co praising what they see on screen, no amount of fiddling the engine will make that 360T clone a better day in day out work saw than the proper pro-husky and stihl alternatives, the echo is overweight, unbalanced and bulky, the ergonomics are crap, the echo bars are as soft as cheese with it, run the echo for a whole day then jump on a 200T for comparison, ha! BIG DIFFERENCE! tellin' ya for a serious pro-user the echo is a cow and always will be, don't be suckered by the echo hype-machine, the echos are just a mediocre product at their very best. NOTHING has changed


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

pgg said:


> mmwwaaahahah TOTALLY unimpressed, the backyard boys are sitting here trying to match the echo as equal or better than the real-deal saws, tellin ya, despite the far-removed-from-the-real-world cookie cutter vids and the clueless clueless backyard crowd like hddnis and co praising what they see on screen, no amount of fiddling the engine will make that 360T clone a better day in day out work saw than the proper pro-husky and stihl alternatives, the echo is overweight, unbalanced and bulky, the ergonomics are crap, the echo bars are as soft as cheese with it, run the echo for a whole day then jump on a 200T for comparison, ha! BIG DIFFERENCE! tellin' ya for a serious pro-user the echo is a cow and always will be, don't be suckered by the echo hype-machine, the echos are just a mediocre product at their very best. NOTHING has changed



"I have a potty mouth" Seriously.


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## husqvarnaguy (Feb 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> "I have a potty mouth" Seriously.



Must be his time of the month.:msp_wink:


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

husqvarnaguy said:


> Must be his time of the month.:msp_wink:



That ########## is the biggest troll on the site........I wish I could have a meet and greet with him.


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## husqvarnaguy (Feb 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> That ########## is the biggest troll on the site........I wish I could have a meet and greet with him.



OH snap, the AS mafia.:msp_scared:


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## rmotoman (Feb 26, 2013)

He does like the color red. Wonder if he is going back to camp soon.


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## Walt41 (Feb 26, 2013)

husqvarnaguy said:


> Must be his time of the month.:msp_wink:



Think his uncle lives in Norway


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## bootboy (Feb 26, 2013)

7sleeper said:


> What I have read is that the Stihl TH are going for way over one grand, so that would make the purchase of three Echos unmodified or two modified ones a viable option.
> 
> 7



Or buy just one and keep the change.


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## Hddnis (Feb 26, 2013)

husqvarnaguy said:


> OH snap, the AS mafia.:msp_scared:





That's Posse to you. 

Sir Monkey Posse:hmm3grin2orange:



Mr. HE


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## bsmith717 (Feb 26, 2013)

I really enjoyed this very thorough and informative write up. I dont know a$$ about chainsaws but I have had my hands in more than a few hundred different pieces of lawn equipment (trimmers/bp blowers/hand held blowers/mowers) so small engines arent unfamiliar. I have always been a fan of the Echo offerings. At least in the lawn equipment area they make light weight, reasonably powerful, efficient and IMO very easy to work on pieces. 

I would love to find a nice beat up Echo saw and take it apart trying to find ways to make it more efficient/powerful. 

Thanks for the inspiration!


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## Gologit (Feb 26, 2013)

rmotoman said:


> He does like the color red. Wonder if he is going back to camp soon.



Yup.


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## bsmith717 (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry for the double post but I forgot to type this question in the prior post. 

What kind of gains do you think you got out of this saw HP/TQ wise or gains from just a normal Port/MM of ANY saw if its possible to quantify it. Ive never seen a tiny little chainsaw dyno but it'd be pretty cool!


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

bsmith717 said:


> Sorry for the double post but I forgot to type this question in the prior post.
> 
> What kind of gains do you think you got out of this saw HP/TQ wise or gains from just a normal Port/MM of ANY saw if its possible to quantify it. Ive never seen a tiny little chainsaw dyno but it'd be pretty cool!



I would love to have a small dyno........

I have no idea how much of a gain we saw on this one.


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## Torquey Todd (Feb 26, 2013)

Danke, Superhirn. These threads of yours are great.

Do you think the port offset increases durability concern that comes with a single-ring config? Because the piston is asymmetrical, or gas flow is asymmetrical?



pgg said:


> husky and stihl alternatives



Heh, that's funny.


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

Torquey Todd said:


> Danke, Superhirn. These threads of yours are great.
> 
> Do you think the port offset increases durability concern that comes with a single-ring config? Because the piston is asymmetrical, or gas flow is asymmetrical?
> 
> ...



I think it just is twisted to allow the exhaust to side exit.


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## echoshawn (Feb 26, 2013)

Randy, is this a personal saw of yours, or a customer's? Just curious if you're gonna run it for a while and see what kind of gains you notice once its good and broke on.


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

echoshawn said:


> Randy, is this a personal saw of yours, or a customer's? Just curious if you're gonna run it for a while and see what kind of gains you notice once its good and broke on.



It belongs to one of our site sponsors. Edge and Engine. 

It's on the way home to Kyle now.......the ball is in his court.


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## bsmith717 (Feb 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I would love to have a small dyno........
> 
> I have no idea how much of a gain we saw on this one.



Okay if you had to put a # out there. 

.25 lbft/hp, .5 lbft/hp 1 lbft/hp?


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## hoeyrd2110 (Feb 26, 2013)

he gained 1,000,000 mm/Lbs:jester:


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## Mastermind (Feb 26, 2013)

bsmith717 said:


> Okay if you had to put a # out there.
> 
> .25 lbft/hp, .5 lbft/hp 1 lbft/hp?



I have no idea. :msp_sad:


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## bsmith717 (Feb 26, 2013)

Fair enough, I can understand not wanting to say something you dont know for sure. 

I was thinking something like mm/g's?


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## Majorpayne (Feb 26, 2013)

bsmith717 said:


> Fair enough, I can understand not wanting to say something you dont know for sure.
> 
> I was thinking something like mm/g's?



He always gets 40%.


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## Majorpayne (Feb 26, 2013)

Majorpayne said:


> He always gets 40%.



And stuff.


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## Zombiechopper (Feb 26, 2013)

bsmith717 said:


> Okay if you had to put a # out there.
> 
> .25 lbft/hp, .5 lbft/hp 1 lbft/hp?



we don't even know an accurate baseline spec. The published numbers are mostly bull droppings anyways. Tryin to put a number on a saw is a waste of time. Just cut wood and see if it's faster is the only meaningful measure for chainsaws.


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## zogger (Feb 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I would love to have a small dyno........
> 
> I have no idea how much of a gain we saw on this one.



A standard cant, and weight of the saw? Rig up some sort of holder, saw bolts to it and just pivots down, and remote throttle , so the saw weight itself is the only thing pushing down. Then just a stopwatch, or time off the vids . Hand held, too many variables. Same chain and similar bar, etc, and like home despot standard 8x8s.


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## tallguys (Feb 26, 2013)

pgg said:


> mmwwaaahahah TOTALLY unimpressed, the backyard boys are sitting here trying to match the echo as equal or better than the real-deal saws, tellin ya, despite the far-removed-from-the-real-world cookie cutter vids and the clueless clueless backyard crowd like hddnis and co praising what they see on screen, no amount of fiddling the engine will make that 360T clone a better day in day out work saw than the proper pro-husky and stihl alternatives, the echo is overweight, unbalanced and bulky, the ergonomics are crap, the echo bars are as soft as cheese with it, run the echo for a whole day then jump on a 200T for comparison, ha! BIG DIFFERENCE! *tellin' ya for a serious pro-user* the echo is a cow and always will be, don't be suckered by the echo hype-machine, the echos are just a mediocre product at their very best. NOTHING has changed



But that is just the point, not everyone who uses a chainsaw is a "serious pro user" and therefore doesn't require shelling out twice the dough to get the job done.

Lots of us property maintenance hacks and regular firewood cutters out there too, don't you know.


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## bsmith717 (Feb 26, 2013)

zogger said:


> A standard cant, and weight of the saw? Rig up some sort of holder, saw bolts to it and just pivots down, and remote throttle , so the saw weight itself is the only thing pushing down. Then just a stopwatch, or time off the vids . Hand held, too many variables. Same chain and similar bar, etc, and like home despot standard 8x8s.



I think you may be on to something but then the changes in density in the log at different points would skew having completely accurate findings, then there's the temp, humidity and DA. Neveemind, forget about it, just get a telephone pole lock it in the holder and let her rip!



Don't forget to start the watch!!!


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## Green Monster (May 7, 2013)

timmcat said:


> Yes on the rev limiter, 14,800 or 15,200 I think. The one I have as a demo runs 14,500 and 4 strokes.



The rev limiter is set to 14,150 rpm.


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## Green Monster (May 7, 2013)

pgg said:


> mmwwaaahahah TOTALLY unimpressed, the backyard boys are sitting here trying to match the echo as equal or better than the real-deal saws, tellin ya, despite the far-removed-from-the-real-world cookie cutter vids and the clueless clueless backyard crowd like hddnis and co praising what they see on screen, no amount of fiddling the engine will make that 360T clone a better day in day out work saw than the proper pro-husky and stihl alternatives, the echo is overweight, unbalanced and bulky, the ergonomics are crap, the echo bars are as soft as cheese with it, run the echo for a whole day then jump on a 200T for comparison, ha! BIG DIFFERENCE! tellin' ya for a serious pro-user the echo is a cow and always will be, don't be suckered by the echo hype-machine, the echos are just a mediocre product at their very best. NOTHING has changed


You don't have clue as to what you are talking about!


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## 7sleeper (May 7, 2013)

Green Monster said:


> You don't have clue as to what you are talking about!



Forget his comments! I think he is in banned camp again or completely gone.

7


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 7, 2013)

Randy how did you mod the muffler on this saw its just an empty can as it is. Did you just open up the stock port?


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## Mastermind (Sep 7, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Randy how did you mod the muffler on this saw its just an empty can as it is. Did you just open up the stock port?



I think so........it's been awhile.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 7, 2013)

How did you pull the limiters? Was it easy? Reinstall? I know the 330t has a plate that need to be removed too and hears its a PITA


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## Mastermind (Sep 7, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> How did you pull the limiters? Was it easy? Reinstall? I know the 330t has a plate that need to be removed too and hears its a PITA



I don't remember that either......I'm useless. :msp_sad:


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## stihl sawing (Sep 7, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I don't remember that either......I'm useless. :msp_sad:


Memory is the second thing to go ya know.:msp_sad:


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 7, 2013)

Ok i drilled a 3/8 hole at the bottom of the deflector. Its rev limited about 14100ish and it seem pretty happy about 13800 i had enough to adjust it without removing the limiters.

Randy you're good for something. It know its been a while since you did the 355 i just thought maybe you remembered.


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## PainAndMurphy (Sep 24, 2013)

pgg said:


> mmwwaaahahah TOTALLY unimpressed, the backyard boys are sitting here trying to match the echo as equal or better than the real-deal saws, tellin ya, despite the far-removed-from-the-real-world cookie cutter vids and the clueless clueless backyard crowd like hddnis and co praising what they see on screen, no amount of fiddling the engine will make that 360T clone a better day in day out work saw than the proper pro-husky and stihl alternatives, the echo is overweight, unbalanced and bulky, the ergonomics are crap, the echo bars are as soft as cheese with it, run the echo for a whole day then jump on a 200T for comparison, ha! BIG DIFFERENCE! tellin' ya for a serious pro-user the echo is a cow and always will be, don't be suckered by the echo hype-machine, the echos are just a mediocre product at their very best. NOTHING has changed




Interesting......... like a mosqito/fly that keeps flying into the same damn spot on your skin (or into your ear..) , you wave it off and away - and it returns.. if you wanna win this battle you gotta keep it up about 10, 20, 30 times to gain only a couple of peaceful minutes..


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 24, 2013)

I believe he was permanently banned


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## Mastermind (Sep 24, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> I believe he was permanently banned



Good


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## Mastermind (Jan 18, 2014)

Fixed the video links here.....


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## EchoTreeClimber (May 2, 2014)

Hey everyone I'm new to the site, but not to the scene. I've been climbing with a 200t for over 4 years and 1 year with the 020t both amazing saws! Buttttt....I just bought an 355t and I can honestly say I like the 355t better! It feels more balanced than the 200t and 201t as well as the husky 338xpt and the t540. I got the 355t with a 14" bar for $359 brand new from my local dealer! I plan to get her mastermind moded as soon as Randy is caught up! So all said and done with work done she'll be $650 tops. Now that's what is going to sell this saw! The price point and at stock performance it's only a little behind the big boys.


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## CR888 (May 2, 2014)

l got a good deal on a NIB Makita 231tes (23cc echo top handle). Echo l believe made this model for Makita as its not in there lineup. lts the same saw as the 26cc top handle 260tes echo. Adjustable oiler, side chain tensioner in a package that weighs 2.5kg (l believe its the lightest saw on market). This saw is great! l have a 201/200t and this little makita can do just about everything the Stihls can with 40% less wieght. I would not hesitate to buy another echo product, this saw is the first two cycle l've owned that will cold start on 1 pull. The only things it lacks is a proper air filter, adjustable carb and a little dawg to ptotect the saw. lt retails for about one third of the cost of a 201t/540t. l will buy more echo saws...they are darn good units.


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## SierraMtns (Sep 27, 2019)

Mastermind said:


> I think so........it's been awhile.




Randy, 

I know its been awhile. Do you remember how much compression you lost after porting since its not possible to do a base gasket delete on this engines? 

Thanks


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Sep 29, 2019)

SierraMtns said:


> Randy,
> 
> I know its been awhile. Do you remember how much compression you lost after porting since its not possible to do a base gasket delete on this engines?
> 
> Thanks



I was just looking back through this thread cause I have another 355 I'm doing. 

As for compression......I have no idea.


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## stilh036prohog (Sep 29, 2019)

There are some a--holes for sure. I'm tearing down a cs-2511t now. The one I got running/stock impressed me. Go thread.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Sep 29, 2019)

stilh036prohog said:


> There are some a--holes for sure. I'm tearing down a cs-2511t now. The one I got running/stock impressed me. Go thread.



I've ported a few 2511s

Lose the base gasket, widen the exhaust and intake, a little work on the lowers.....muffler mod. WOW


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## stilh036prohog (Sep 29, 2019)

There hot saw for sure.


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## SierraMtns (Oct 2, 2019)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I was just looking back through this thread cause I have another 355 I'm doing.
> 
> As for compression......I have no idea.



Can the base gasket be deleted on the 355t?


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## Matt Hogden (Oct 2, 2019)

I want to see Mastermind meet the Echo 501SX / Shindaiwa 501SX.


Sent from my SM-A505YN using Tapatalk


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 21, 2019)

SierraMtns said:


> Can the base gasket be deleted on the 355t?



It's a clamshell design......so not applicable.


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## eye.heart.trees (May 23, 2020)

Figured bumping this would be better than starting anew..

Just got a new 355t last week and am almost "relieved" to know there's not "MS-201t level" gains to be had from porting the block (or rather, that porting is almost nullified by the fixed compression level inherent to the block's design) because I probably wouldn't be happy til I'd had them done 

In approaching the basic mods I realized I haven't found a solid answer to an important Q here-- _*Is all exhaust back-pressure decreasing perfomance?*_ Or is a >0 level of back-pressure desirable? I know most vehicles scavenge exhaust gases and simply removing pipes can make them _less_ powerful but on these lil 2-strokes I'd imagine 0 backpressure is the optimal, wanted to ask before modifying my muffler! (well, before modifying it further-- the muff's intake-port had a slightly tighter circumference than the block's exhaust-outlet, I couldn't believe it but measured like 10X before grinding/deburring like 1mm from the perimeter of the muff's intake-port, was a "lip" the exhaust gases had a pass but not any longer!)
I like the "piped" style like:


but that ^ would be sub-optimal if all backpressure = bad, as that hole is definitely smaller than the block's outlet port and, if anything, you'd want a _larger_ exit-port on the muffler to reduce the back-pressure induced by turbulence in that box.

Am also verrrry interested in what appears to just be an "air restricting plate":



Saw a guy on youtube who, during his 2yr-review on this saw, talked about how he'd removed his and that + MM really woke it up.... Have to wonder at your thoughts on removing that plate @Mastermind Worksaws as I didn't see you removing it on the 355t you began the thread with...honestly it's as-if Echo set it up so you can spend 10min and just pull-off the exhaust's plate (the one over the arrester screen), pull off this air-restricter plate, pull-out the limiters so you can up the fuel to match your new "increased throughput" configuration and you're off!

Thanks a ton for any insight, also for any suggestions on chains (I'm happy with the 6-tooth, 3/8 sprockets all my saws have but every chain I own is some Oregon "green label", or Echo standard chain which is "green label" so far as I can tell...only problem is I can't name anything besides Oregon VXL's that're a good "non safety-chain" for use here, any specific suggestions would be greatly appreciated!)


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## esean (May 23, 2020)

Try the Stihl PS (yellow) or PS3 (green) full chisel chain. I think others have noted that PS3 is just as fast as PS. I haven't compared them directly. I'm running PS3 on a CS-361P (rear handled version of 355t). Bore cuts just fine.


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## eye.heart.trees (May 25, 2020)

esean said:


> Try the Stihl PS (yellow) or PS3 (green) full chisel chain. I think others have noted that PS3 is just as fast as PS. I haven't compared them directly. I'm running PS3 on a CS-361P (rear handled version of 355t). Bore cuts just fine.


Is one more-aggressive than the other? Are they compatible w/ my:
0.050" bar, and
6-toothed, 3/8LP sprocket
?

If so, will just head-over to Ace Hardware instead of going on ebay for Oregon VXL (am using _only_ safety chains, well I grind the rakers pretty aggressively so probably not so 'safe' but - correct if wrong please - a "pro" chain isn't just going to have far less-aggressive rakers, it's also got "hookier" teeth, right?), is there any 'comparison' between VXL and ps/ps3? Guess I'm curious where they land "in Oregon-land" since that's all I'm familiar with (on-paper, haven't even ordered a VXL chain yet, everything's PX series or Echo's version of it, wanna get 'real' chains for 12/14/16/18 so am happy/eager to try more than one type!


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## eye.heart.trees (May 25, 2020)

355t got VERRRY hot yesterday, I'd had ~4hrs of break-in on it (have a tach on it counting hours-used) so took it on a 2nd job, felling & chunking a ~17', dead Live Oak stump/spar. The 355t was great for felling (had my 16" on it - fried the white paint off the rim of that nearly-new bar, must've run low on bar-oil at some point) but once I'd felled it & was chunking it on-ground I had to keep swapping-over to my rear-handle... kept opening my 355's L jet, upping its idle, because it was _working_ just fine but it'd keep stalling-out when I let off full-throttle (ie insttead of going to idle it'd fall on its face, I'd pull the cord gently and it'd hop back) Was scared of this but some reading today does point to different carb-settings in different circumstances, if I'm just repeatedly burying a 16" that's built for on/off climb-cutting, makes sense it'd overheat and at that point a mL of fuel no longer has same "bang" so you're running lean if you don't adjust carb (sheeeet....I only opened up L, because I kept stalling-out after hard cuts, never opened up H....hope I didn't cause much damage..will be bringing him back to the shop this week for tune-up and my dealer's "assessment"/OK'ing of what I've done to /want-to-do to the unit! On that note-
_Anyone got thoughts on removal of that air-restricter plate, bolted between the air-filter & the carb's throat?_ Can't imagine it's *anything* but worthwhile, just wanted someone/anyone's opinions on this!!


(PS- putting "debris guard screens" on flywheel-side-casing doesn't "choke out" the saw by any stretch, does it? Was stoked to see Echo makes them for 355t/2511t/etc, though it's not as-fine as the aluminum window screening I usually epoxy-into the inner-facing of my flywheel-cover, am def doing the window-screen but like the other one on-top-of it all, but made me worry I could start causing unacceptable air-intake-potential! I know this practice sounds like overkill but after a loooong rebuild due to debris mangling a flywheel&ignittion, I like keeping large particles out entirely!!!!)


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## eye.heart.trees (May 25, 2020)

Oh I'll most-definitely be slathering red Permatex on the muffler-side of the clutch-cover-casing, as heat-shield against that muffler.... Also going to put its stock 14" setup back onto it, was really unsure whether to keep it 14 or 16", maybe once I'm off these safety-chains it'll feel right w/ the 16" again but for now I feel I'm less-likely to over-heat it w/ a 14" (hell I should've kept it 14" for its first weeks, I'd swapped it to 16" the day I bought it in fact the 14" setup is hardly touched so that'll be fun for its first cuts  )


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## esean (May 25, 2020)

Yes Stihl PS and PS3 are 3/8 low profile 0.050 (Stihl calls that 'Picco'). They have the same cutters, all Stihl chain ending in a 3 also has small safety bumpers which seem to have little to no effect on speed. You'll need 52 link for the 14" Echo bar - it might take some searching to find pre-made loops. The consensus is that PS/PS3 is the fastest 3/8 lp chain out there. Seems to stay sharp well too. Certainly faster than VXL, and less chatter.


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## eye.heart.trees (May 26, 2020)

esean said:


> Yes Stihl PS and PS3 are 3/8 low profile 0.050 (Stihl calls that 'Picco'). They have the same cutters, all Stihl chain ending in a 3 also has small safety bumpers which seem to have little to no effect on speed. You'll need 52 link for the 14" Echo bar - it might take some searching to find pre-made loops. The consensus is that PS/PS3 is the fastest 3/8 lp chain out there. Seems to stay sharp well too. Certainly faster than VXL, and less chatter.


"Less chatter", could you expand on that? 
So the PS > PS3, since only difference is PS*3* has lil safety bumpers, but otherwise they'd take same sharpening-file, fit on same sprocket/bar/etc?

"Certainly faster than the VXL"
This has been pretty confusing for me-- is it a liability thing, the reason you can go buy off-shelf 540xp/355t/etc and get Oregon/oregon-type safety chains? The chain on my 355's 14" does seem a bit different than what I'm used to (the teeth, their profile & size) but haven't used that chain much yet.... With how integral chain is to a well-performing saw, it blows my mind that Echo&Husq are "leaving performance on the table" sticking to the old 0.05 / 3/8LP safety setups, on these lil powerheads the bar&chain have a way bigger _relative_ impact on cutting compared to a >60cc+ saw, my 25cc will be noticeably slower just pushing a 16" over a 12".

What about 0.043" gauge chain on 0.05" bars? (or is that already inclusive in "use PS/PS3"? Will go googling them now -- tomorrow I'm picking-up a part for my 355 and'll be @the shop and just planning to ask his opinion for most-aggressive since I know he won't have Stihl there, am having so much trouble swallowing the concept that Stihl - the motor company - is out-doing the whole bar&chain industry, I mean Oregon actually makes gear(blowers, pole-saws) and it's surprisingly high-quality stuff for what it is- is the VXL their best 12-->16" offering? I was only mentioning it since, on my Oregon-chains-list, it looks to be the only "yellow label" (non-safety) chain they make that'd fit my saws, so 1 choice for a non-safety top-handle chain from Oregon....sounds wrong!


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## Franny K (May 26, 2020)

The reduced kick back bumper drive links are not bothersome for many until depth gauge lowering time.

Stihl is more courageous in the 0.050 small 3/8 stuff. The nose sprocket of 9 tooth vs 7 of others for an example.

You can still get 91vx even if not a current product. I believe h35 in husky. Basically px less the bumper drive Link. Similarly pxl is vxl with bumper dl.

You throw out a lot of stuff to respond to, much discussed prior. If you can get the paper Stihl catalog about half an inch thick.


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## stubnail67 (May 26, 2020)

eye.heart.trees said:


> 355t got VERRRY hot yesterday, I'd had ~4hrs of break-in on it (have a tach on it counting hours-used) so took it on a 2nd job, felling & chunking a ~17', dead Live Oak stump/spar. The 355t was great for felling (had my 16" on it - fried the white paint off the rim of that nearly-new bar, must've run low on bar-oil at some point) but once I'd felled it & was chunking it on-ground I had to keep swapping-over to my rear-handle... kept opening my 355's L jet, upping its idle, because it was _working_ just fine but it'd keep stalling-out when I let off full-throttle (ie insttead of going to idle it'd fall on its face, I'd pull the cord gently and it'd hop back) Was scared of this but some reading today does point to different carb-settings in different circumstances, if I'm just repeatedly burying a 16" that's built for on/off climb-cutting, makes sense it'd overheat and at that point a mL of fuel no longer has same "bang" so you're running lean if you don't adjust carb (sheeeet....I only opened up L, because I kept stalling-out after hard cuts, never opened up H....hope I didn't cause much damage..will be bringing him back to the shop this week for tune-up and my dealer's "assessment"/OK'ing of what I've done to /want-to-do to the unit! On that note-
> _Anyone got thoughts on removal of that air-restricter plate, bolted between the air-filter & the carb's throat?_ Can't imagine it's *anything* but worthwhile, just wanted someone/anyone's opinions on this!!
> 
> 
> (PS- putting "debris guard screens" on flywheel-side-casing doesn't "choke out" the saw by any stretch, does it? Was stoked to see Echo makes them for 355t/2511t/etc, though it's not as-fine as the aluminum window screening I usually epoxy-into the inner-facing of my flywheel-cover, am def doing the window-screen but like the other one on-top-of it all, but made me worry I could start causing unacceptable air-intake-potential! I know this practice sounds like overkill but after a loooong rebuild due to debris mangling a flywheel&ignittion, I like keeping large particles out entirely!!!!)


When i got mine i removed the limiters and fattened it up as much as i could on the high and still run proper.. the low i went by how the throttle response was.... i also ran it rich 40/1 for a few tanks with red armor all i use now.... after it broke in i leaned it to where i could make hard cuts without to much issue....you should check your piston and make sure its good just for your own peace of mind.....In my experience echos take awhile to loosen up ... If you run them hard i would run it rich for a little while ...I tune mine in wood by ear and pay attention to how the saw acts...let us know how it goes....


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## stubnail67 (May 26, 2020)

Franny K said:


> The reduced kick back bumper drive links are not bothersome for many until depth gauge lowering time.
> 
> Stihl is more courageous in the 0.050 small 3/8 stuff. The nose sprocket of 9 tooth vs 7 of others for an example.
> 
> ...


Loved the 91vx better then the vxl for sure.


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