# Is logging still a viable career path?



## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

So i got offered a logging job last week. Im currently a machinist but have a small fire wood/ logging operation on the side. Im really torn about what i should do. Stay where im at or go do what a i truly have a passion for. Theres a ton variables. But i was just looking for some words of advice from people in the industry. Im less than happy at my current job. Not really because of the work. More so the environment and my coworkers. But i have a fair bit of benefits, health insurance, life insurance, some vacation days. The logging job has none of that and would be a cash or 1099 type thing. Im just not sure. Any advice would be more than welcome.

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## rwoods (Dec 5, 2017)

Sounds like you and Northman may be kin. Hopefully, he’ll log in tonight and share his thoughts.

Ron


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## paco_06 (Dec 5, 2017)

I feel your pain. I've been in the same situation for four years. I can actually make more money by quitting my job, but can't constitute paying $2000 a month for health insurance!

Anyways, if you can afford it, go for it! A lot of people are gonna tell you to do what you love, but unfortunately that's not always the best choice. Myself, I have three people that depend on me and although doing what I like would make me happy, I'm not gonna take a chance like that for their sake. There are some scenarios for me that can and will work, just a matter of time. Who knows. As for your situation, you're the only one who knows.

I will say this, the sky is the limit when working for yourself, but the mountains are much higher and the valleys are way lower!

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## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

Yeah forgot to mention. I have a wife and 4 kids under 10. Ive only had insurance for about 8 months didnt notice much without it. Had a little bite on the income tax. If anything happened to me i and they would be SOL anyway. I feel i might just have to draw straws and run with it.

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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 5, 2017)

I don't think I'd be able to afford doing it if I didn't have Healthcare though the VA and a pension. And that's just me and the dog. No way with kids.
Cash/1099 I wouldn't consider that being a career, but rather a short term gig.

2 years ago I got sick (ICU for a week sick). That bill was more than an average house costs.


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## peakbagger (Dec 5, 2017)

With a big family I would suggest stick where you are and keep handling wood as a hobby. Consider upping your skills into programing CNC machines. Auotmation may replace the folks who swap tooling and switch stock but they still need someone to program.

Logging isnt one if not the highest comp rate in the book for nothing and when loggers get hurt the physics means they typically get hurt bad. My former employer had one of the last company owned logging crews in the East, the crews worked safe and had few incidences. The mill decided to go with contract loggers and most of the crew went to work for them. Many were seriously injured within months of switching over. It comes down to the only way a contract logger usually makes money is to take shortcuts and shortcuts mean injuries.


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## Blue Oaks (Dec 5, 2017)

I was a machinist for a few years and then parlayed that into a manufacturing engineering career. I guarantee you'll make a TON more money if you take that route. Another engineering discipline is "Dfx" or Design for X Engineer. Essentially companies pay engineers who actually know how something is machined, molded, spun, forged, etc to review part drawings to ensure good manufacturability and producibility. 

Nationwide you should strive to make about 3x your age in 1000's per year to "get ahead." I live near Silicon Valley (aka Fantasyland) and the multiple is more like 4x.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 5, 2017)

I've been out of the machine shop fer a month now, 8 years in the making.

Wouldn't go back if i had too.


Insurance is ****ed, period. Life ins is cheap though, i suggest that at least. Health ins... we're ****ed left and right so i dont have any. But the i dont have kids.


As for sticking with machining? Thats on you, however, wages have gone down with automation, the programmers are getting dumber as less and less feed back comes from the floor. The fact is they think they dont need us to keep thier machines running good... india and china can and will do it cheaper and frankley better.

Far as I'm concerned machining and factory skilled labor in general is a dying breed in this country, purely from automation and simple corporate greed.

An old machinist I knew once told me "you'll never get rich working for someone else"

As for logging, play it safe, stay out of debt, and keep work infront of you, diversify, learn to run any heavy equipment, dozers, excavators, loaders, anything and everything, cause logging eventually uses any thing to get the job done. and look into getting a cdl, trucking jobs are everywhere and not going away any time soon.

A short history of me, spotted owl, woods shut down when i was 12-13, I'd already been pulling choker with my uncle fer a couple years off and on, so i got into machining through high school vocational classes.... 15 or do years later machining sucked, and i was still in the woods when i could, started falling trees for fire firewood, but it got out of hand and i needed equipment to keep up... that turned into a few loads of logs... and the hook was firmly set..

Was a lead/manager/supervisor at half a dozen mach shops, i can program fanuc yasnac, mitsubishi and fadal, run lathes and mills, tooling i did it all regardless of the machine, 

Decided in 2013 i was finally done machining and it was just a way to keep ins and let me build my business, april 1st i became a small biz owner... 

It took longer than i would have liked but im full time logging now, and i own all of my equipment outright, i owe the bank only for a mortgage.

For what its worth, i've had migraines since i was a kid, nearly daily fer the last 14 years or so... think ive had 2 since nov 10th, the shop mentality is no longer one of inovation, but blind acceptance of fate, and ass kissing your way to the top, all things i detest, i would rather work with you to make you better then to step on your face to better myself... but alas... no one else thinks that way anymore. 

So **** em, i'll keep my knowledge to myself and go logging.


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## Brian72 (Dec 5, 2017)

I think many of us are in the same situation. I've been driving truck for almost 25 yrs. and I hate it anymore. Many of my fellow drivers feel the same. Benefits keep many of us from starting a business to get off the road.

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## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> I've been out of the machine shop fer a month now, 8 years in the making.
> 
> Wouldn't go back if i had too.
> 
> ...


A man after mine own heart! Some more of my backstory. I was born and raised on a small dairy farm. I may only be 29 and grew up in the 90s and 2000s but i was raised and worked like it was still the 60s. We farmed with old oliver tractors and small eq. well into my high school years. Everything was done the hard way by hand but it was done our way. I guess maybe that lifestyle is what im looking for cause i just cant seem to be happy working for other people. After i graduated i wasted my time going to a trade school (now closed for fraud) to be an automotive tech. Never was. Eventually i found my way into a small farm shop. I wrenched for 6 years on anything that rolled in the door and i could run it too. (I was very thorough on my testing after repairs[emoji6]). Ive only been in the machining game for a couple years. There was a time when i thought id like it. But you hit the nail on the head about how people are. And being the guy i am i let them. Ive been at it doing firewood and logging for a couple years now also. Its been up and down. The dead ash here in michigan flooded the market. Every idiot with a pickup truck and chainsaw things theyre a logger now. Just last summer a guy got himself killed by dragging a tree into a standing dead one. I guess i miss some manual labor and so does my body. Im not afraid to get dirty or work where its dangerous. It makes you stronger and sharper. We had zero shields on things at home and everything was done the hard way and ive made it 29 years and not a single broken bone or stitch. Sorry for the rant just this decision has me consumed right now.

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## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

Oh also just to be a bit more specific. Ill be going to work for a small logging company. Theyre offer was pay by the day with the guaranty of 5 days most of the time. The theory is on the off time i can work on my own business and grow it. I have the supply right now and some eq. Just need a market.

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## woodfarmer (Dec 5, 2017)

Where are you located and what is cash/1099?


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## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

Michigan. It basically means you're paid cash and then sort out the taxes later. A 1099 means im a self employed subcontractor hired to do a job. Then at the end of the year we split the taxes 

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## rwoods (Dec 5, 2017)

Thumbilly,

You should get your compensation arrangements in writing. Ordinarily, a subcontractor pays all his taxes - income and social security. 1099 is just the tax form that the person paying you uses to report to the government how much you were paid for the year. 

Ron


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## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

Fair enough

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## 1270d (Dec 5, 2017)

They guarantee you 5 days of work usually? Doesn't sound like a very good guarantee.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 5, 2017)

Fyi, if they are paying you via sub contract, then nobodys payin for l+i, and if you get hurt you are SOL


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## fool skip (Dec 5, 2017)

This setup sounds way too sketchy to me. Too much risk involved for you and your family. If you were here in Oregon you could probably find something to meet your needs. They are always looking for operators here. If you can weld, service and repair your machine you can get a steady job. If you like to sleep in your own bed every night, I would not recommend logging. If you are going to work steady you will have to go where the logs are. I'm probably not the best person for advice as I was born to logging [3rd generation]. I've has 14 friends and coworkers killed over 35 years of logging. I can't count the crippled ones. The job that the companies are begging for is a heavy equipment field mechanic. Very good pay and you take no ****!


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## thumbilly (Dec 5, 2017)

fool skip said:


> This setup sounds way too sketchy to me. Too much risk involved for you and your family. If you were here in Oregon you could probably find something to meet your needs. They are always looking for operators here. If you can weld, service and repair your machine you can get a steady job. If you like to sleep in your own bed every night, I would not recommend logging. If you are going to work steady you will have to go where the logs are. I'm probably not the best person for advice as I was born to logging [3rd generation]. I've has 14 friends and coworkers killed over 35 years of logging. I can't count the crippled ones. The job that the companies are begging for is a heavy equipment field mechanic. Very good pay and you take no ****!


Ive done the 1099 thing before and i know these guys. Its a two man setup that wants to grow but doesnt yet have the means to go full blow employees. On the flip side i most definitely have the skills to be a heavy eq mechanic. Which is part of why they want me. I have versatile abilities. I can pull my weight in any aspect of the job. 

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## paco_06 (Dec 6, 2017)

thumbilly said:


> Ive done the 1099 thing before and i know these guys. Its a two man setup that wants to grow but doesnt yet have the means to go full blow employees. On the flip side i most definitely have the skills to be a heavy eq mechanic. Which is part of why they want me. I have versatile abilities. I can pull my weight in any aspect of the job.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Sounds more like you need to invest and be a partner...... That few people, everyone pull their own weight and everyone spilt the pay accordingly. Of course, most cases this type of thing ends badly in court some form or fashion. Lol. But if you trust them, and you're honest, this will be your best bet. One hauling, one cutting, one loading...

You'll just be competition if you're in the same area with your business anyways.

Either way, you really do need a plan for you and your family's health care. That's a must. My family is taken care of in every way whether it's as small as a sniffle or as drastic as a death. Not doing so is just plain irresponsible. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's the truth. Now I know sometimes there's cases where you have to take a chance and lapse coverage or something of that nature, but "sol" shouldn't be your plan. You either need an insurance policy or a bank full of money 

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## SliverPicker (Dec 6, 2017)

In this world you will either go bankrupt buying the health insurance or you will go bankrupt if you get ill.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 6, 2017)

So not to get all political but... Single payer?


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## fool skip (Dec 6, 2017)

To get back to the original question: "Is logging a viable career path?". Yes, most certainly, with the right situation.


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## paco_06 (Dec 6, 2017)

fool skip said:


> To get back to the original question: "Is logging a viable career path?". Yes, most certainly, with the right situation.


Yes, sorry I got on a little rant. I personally think it's a great career. Definitely has ups and downs, but it's a tough job so not everyone is lined up to do it. Best advice I've got is always always be honest. Some of the most crooked people I know are loggers, also know some very good ones and they are the ones who thrive!

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## 92utownxh (Dec 6, 2017)

I'm saying this as a 30something with a wife and 3 kids. I couldn't take a chance on the logging job. My passion is in the woods. I went to school for outdoor recreation and resource management. The reality is I couldn't get a decent paying job doing what I love. It sucks. I work in city government, outside half the time at least. Good pay, great health insurance, great life insurance, amazing amount of paid time off, and I have off every holiday paid. Short term and long term disability also. Sure, I dread going to work sometimes, and I hate that part. But it's the same pay check every single 2 weeks, and I don't have to worry about my family. If something would happen to me I have peace that every debt would be paid, the boys would get through school, and my wife would be able to live comfortably for life. 

I get in the woods every chance I get, and make decent money doing firewood. It's a passion and hobby. Life does that sometimes. By all means better yourself and your situation anyway you can. Just make sure your family is taken care of first and foremost.


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## thumbilly (Dec 6, 2017)

I really truly appreciate all the advice even though im still completely on the fence about it. A year ago i wouldnt have thought twice about it. I never saw a job in my future with any kind of benefits and it didn't really bother me. Now that i have some i feel an obligation to keep them. Even though for the most part theyre overrated and the amount of money i have to spend to actually use it is ridiculous. At the same time i feel like if i dont try logging itll be another regret not taking a chance. Ive made that mistake before when i let my parents talk me out of joining the military. A huge part of me has to know if i can do it. Maybe i just need a challenge not boring mundane repetitive job. Not that logging cant be that way, but every woods is different a new challenge if you will. I stand in front of a manual mill 10hrs a day chasing bolt holes with little hope of anything else. And the money is not great. Its low enough my children have insurance through the State. Not what i want but priorities and all. I knew asking here would be my best bet. No one in my life has the same passion that i have to be in the woods and running a saw. 

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## bitzer (Dec 6, 2017)

I quit my job with 4 kids and went all in 6 years ago. I hated my job and worked way to hard for little pay. I got a loan for a forwarder and a small startup loan. The first two years were hard. Like scraping by hard. But I kept pushing. I had no previous logging experience. Just some tree cutting experience. I cut for a mill so they always had work lined up for me and I get a paycheck every week. It took a long time to learn the machine and how to work it efficiently on different types of ground. Also always honing my cutting skills and striving for max footage per day. Three years in I had ally loans paid off and another kid to feed. My wife quit working after the fifth kid which was a year into the business. I'd say I do pretty well and have a good system down. I make $50-60 per hour on average and often times more. You definitely need to mechanically inclined though. I can fix everything on my 1990 Franklin. If I had to call someone to fix it i'd be in trouble. It can be done and to me I could never see doing anything else.


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## rwoods (Dec 6, 2017)

Good to hear from you, bitzer. I was beginning to think another with something useful to say had gone silent.

Ron


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## bitzer (Dec 6, 2017)

I check in from time to time. Been hanging out in "east coast loggers" on FB. Trying to teach those boys theres more to life the bore cutting

Thumbilly- I was 29 when I started the biz. I've seen 5 crews start up and fold up in the last six years and I can tell you why every one of them did from the little bit I heard. I'm in SE WI so I'm guessing we are in similar climates.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 6, 2017)

If the woods are calling, they will never stop.


Also if logging ever seems repetitive, chances are yer about to get hurt.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 6, 2017)

Another thing to know about logging is it's a feast or famine business. When you have work, you have more than you can handle and the phone is ringing non-stop. When you don't have work- no one else does either usually. 
There may be a down turn in the log market or the economy and then all the mills stop taking wood. Right now, the export market is hot and all my former co-workers are at it hot and heavy.
A couple years ago there was no work here and everyone was laid off. If you're going to do it- be flexible and always have a back-up plan (i.e. something else to do).


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 6, 2017)

True. I always tuck a bit of $$ away over the year to allow me to eat and keep the lights on during break up (April-June)


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 6, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I quit my job with 4 kids and went all in 6 years ago. I hated my job and worked way to hard for little pay. I got a loan for a forwarder and a small startup loan. The first two years were hard. Like scraping by hard. But I kept pushing. I had no previous logging experience. Just some tree cutting experience. I cut for a mill so they always had work lined up for me and I get a paycheck every week. It took a long time to learn the machine and how to work it efficiently on different types of ground. Also always honing my cutting skills and striving for max footage per day. Three years in I had ally loans paid off and another kid to feed. My wife quit working after the fifth kid which was a year into the business. I'd say I do pretty well and have a good system down. I make $50-60 per hour on average and often times more. You definitely need to mechanically inclined though. I can fix everything on my 1990 Franklin. If I had to call someone to fix it i'd be in trouble. It can be done and to me I could never see doing anything else.



Fixing it yourself or hiring it out is always a tough one, at least for me. If I do it myself I save on that, but then I'm not making money for a day/couple days/week, so there's that too.


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## madhatte (Dec 7, 2017)

FWIW log prices are at a high hereabouts right now. Not all-time high -- that was late '90's -- but the highest since then.


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## rarefish383 (Dec 7, 2017)

Thumbilly, I'm jumping in here because I'm not sure I understand your situation. I get not liking your current job. I get the job offer with the loggers. What I'm not sure I have straight is the little business you have on the side. You say a firewood/logging business? I come from 4 generations of residential tree care. I went to the University of MD on a Botany major, was licensed and insured as a MD Tree Expert. At 29 I kind of burnt out on the 24-7 of owning a business, Dad retired in 85 and I went to work for UPS in 86. In 2016 I retired with 30 years at UPS. The reason I'm telling you this is I still bleed saw dust. I have a portable mill. I love working with big logs and big saws. Since I don't hang out on this forum, I don't know you like the other regulars might. The thing that worries me, from what I've read, is there is a world of difference between cutting logs for firewood, and a real logging operation. Many Tree Care businesses I've seen over the years were started by top notch climbers, and failed, because they were not top notch business men. I think you said you wanted to build your own business, great, that's where the money is, not working for another company. It's also where all of the responsibility lies, the stress, the hours, and a lot of the danger. If you build a business, you will be working 4-6 hours after all the men go home. I don't know the logging business, but I do know the tree care business. When I got out I was working for about one quarter of what I was running Dad's business. But at UPS I got 8 weeks vacation, health care, pension, 401K. My pension with all of the deductibles taken out is $75,000 a year, and I don't have to touch my Social security or 401K yet. You'll have to work your butt off and save a LOT of money to match that when you retire, or never retire. There are many people that jump into their dream, work their butt off, sacrifice, don't take vacations for years, put in 16 hours a day, and push and push till they come out on top. The view from the top is pretty good. Working for the other loggers is being in the middle, the view is mediocre at best. When I think of a small logging out fit, I'm thinking half a million in equipment. The other guys can tell you that better. I can skid logs with my Massey 135, I couldn't make a living with it. To get my MD Tree Expert license you had to know geology, why, that's where trees grow. Meteorology, why, what does the root system do after 6 days of heavy rain, and what does the canopy do with 40 MPH winds. Surveying, why, boundaries and right of ways. Law, why, the consequences of screwing up any of the a fore mentioned. What do you need to know to make it in the logging business? If I threw a bucket of life's cold water on your dream, sorry. If you are made of the right stuff, you can do it. Best of luck in your endeavors, what ever they may be. If I miss read anything and got off target, my apologies, Joe.


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## Brian72 (Dec 7, 2017)

rarefish383 said:


> Thumbilly, I'm jumping in here because I'm not sure I understand your situation. I get not liking your current job. I get the job offer with the loggers. What I'm not sure I have straight is the little business you have on the side. You say a firewood/logging business? I come from 4 generations of residential tree care. I went to the University of MD on a Botany major, was licensed and insured as a MD Tree Expert. At 29 I kind of burnt out on the 24-7 of owning a business, Dad retired in 85 and I went to work for UPS in 86. In 2016 I retired with 30 years at UPS. The reason I'm telling you this is I still bleed saw dust. I have a portable mill. I love working with big logs and big saws. Since I don't hang out on this forum, I don't know you like the other regulars might. The thing that worries me, from what I've read, is there is a world of difference between cutting logs for firewood, and a real logging operation. Many Tree Care businesses I've seen over the years were started by top notch climbers, and failed, because they were not top notch business men. I think you said you wanted to build your own business, great, that's where the money is, not working for another company. It's also where all of the responsibility lies, the stress, the hours, and a lot of the danger. If you build a business, you will be working 4-6 hours after all the men go home. I don't know the logging business, but I do know the tree care business. When I got out I was working for about one quarter of what I was running Dad's business. But at UPS I got 8 weeks vacation, health care, pension, 401K. My pension with all of the deductibles taken out is $75,000 a year, and I don't have to touch my Social security or 401K yet. You'll have to work your butt off and save a LOT of money to match that when you retire, or never retire. There are many people that jump into their dream, work their butt off, sacrifice, don't take vacations for years, put in 16 hours a day, and push and push till they come out on top. The view from the top is pretty good. Working for the other loggers is being in the middle, the view is mediocre at best. When I think of a small logging out fit, I'm thinking half a million in equipment. The other guys can tell you that better. I can skid logs with my Massey 135, I couldn't make a living with it. To get my MD Tree Expert license you had to know geology, why, that's where trees grow. Meteorology, why, what does the root system do after 6 days of heavy rain, and what does the canopy do with 40 MPH winds. Surveying, why, boundaries and right of ways. Law, why, the consequences of screwing up any of the a fore mentioned. What do you need to know to make it in the logging business? If I threw a bucket of life's cold water on your dream, sorry. If you are made of the right stuff, you can do it. Best of luck in your endeavors, what ever they may be. If I miss read anything and got off target, my apologies, Joe.


Very well said!! I think you conveyed many thoughts we all have. I certainly don't want to discourage anybody and I'm sure none of the other members do either. It's just very hard to start a business from scratch. Many factors have to be considered before making any decisions. Businesses such as logging can be even harder considering the cost of necessary equipment. It's never too late to change your career path but just approach it with caution. I surely wish the OP all the best.

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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 7, 2017)

Brian72 said:


> Very well said!! I think you conveyed many thoughts we all have. I certainly don't want to discourage anybody and I'm sure none of the other members do either. It's just very hard to start a business from scratch. Many factors have to be considered before making any decisions. Businesses such as logging can be even harder considering the cost of necessary equipment. It's never too late to change your career path but just approach it with caution. I surely wish the OP all the best.
> 
> Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk



Agreed. Very easy to make $300-500k disappear on used equipment just to get started.

Feller Buncher
Delimber
Skidder
dozer
excavator
log truck
etc, etc, etc.


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## rarefish383 (Dec 7, 2017)

Oh, this is what threw me, you said you had a "supply". That sounds like a firewood operation, not a logging opp. A logger could go through a ten year firewood supply in a couple days, then he's done, no more work. Again, best of luck, Joe.


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## fool skip (Dec 7, 2017)

Most successful logging contractors in this area started by working many years for someone else learning the business on their nickel putting in at least 5 years as a supervisor. This really helps when you visit the bank. If you decide to go the 1099 route, be sure and pay your quarterly estimates or you can really get bit.


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## bitzer (Dec 7, 2017)

Thumbilly you need some real numbers here. Are you getting paid by the board foot? Day? Hour? What would you be doing? Cutting? Skidder op? What kind of equipment do you personally have?


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## madhatte (Dec 8, 2017)

rarefish383 said:


> Many Tree Care businesses I've seen over the years were started by top notch climbers, and failed, because they were not top notch business men.





rarefish383 said:


> But at UPS I got 8 weeks vacation, health care, pension, 401K. My pension with all of the deductibles taken out is $75,000 a year, and I don't have to touch my Social security or 401K yet.



You're speaking sound wisdom here. I had a business in the 90's doing contract timber cruising, which is how I discovered that I have exactly zero business acumen. I ended up joining the Navy to dig myself out of that hole, and promised myself that I'd go back to the woods, but on the other side of the contract. I've been a civilian Fed for 11 years now, with military time counting toward retirement. I'm doing the same sort of work now that I was when I was in my mid-20's, plus more kinds of work including fire. The work is more interesting, the pay is better, and there may be a light at the end of the tunnel if the whole world doesn't burn down one way or another before I'm of retirement age. 

To the OP: I know plenty of sharp folks making a living by their wits and by their skills in the contract world. I also know plenty of folks who drift from job to job with no stability, living not from contract to contract but from paycheck to paycheck. I can honestly recommend that you feel things out, don't go all in on anything before you're sure that it's gonna at least sort of work, and keep a backup plan. A skilled and clever person should always be able to land on their feet no matter how rough things get, but you gotta keep developing and nurturing skill. The world changes pretty quickly.


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## ArtB (Dec 8, 2017)

If you quit your machining job, I'd only do the situation you describe as was already said on Wed... e.g ..._Sounds more like you need to invest and be a partner
_
We (it really IS a family decision) thought about either building houses or logging back in the 70's. Engineer at big company that laid off 125,000 out of 150,000 employees in early 1970s. 
Stayed with eng though, soon had enough to buy a couple of small dozers and some forest land to satisfy the woodsy urges, but just as a hobby.
In hindsight, the way real estate has gone in this area since the 70's would have been pretty well off now building houses (assuming I bought land back then and thru the 80s), but that is hindsight.

So, one never knows the 'what ifs'. 

Sure, there were times when there was an urge to quit because of conflicts with co-workers, but all thing pass. And, like you say, you do have the family responsibilities to consider. And also consider if your machining job is stable, any risk of yours going away via CNC, or are you CNC operator already? 

Interesting sidelight that is that the last high school vocational class in logging IIRC was a high school on Oly peninsula in the 70's. Discontinued sometime around mid-70's, which was an indication back then as to low expectations of future of logging as a career as an employee in WA state. 

I do have a neighbor that went into the tree service business and now has 4 employees, but his wife has a decent paying job for the slow times starting but kids were all in school so no big daycare expenses.
Think he says he can pull in $2-$3k a day gross around here (mostly climbing and removal of 140 ft to 160 ft DF next to houses) as there are many high end houses with relatively well off owners that can afford tree services and get afraid as their trees get taller. Have noticed that the new developments here now clear cut vs. leaving ANY larger trees.


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## rarefish383 (Dec 8, 2017)

Art, that's right about where my friends are. One has 3 full time crews and might put on a couple extra crews in good weather. If the work gets dangerous and takes special skills, the price can go up, a lot. So, if he shows up with a knuckle boom, chipper and truck, skidder with truck and trailer and stump grinder with truck and trailer, you're probably getting pretty close to half a million in equipment. Not even looking at all the little stuff like saws, ropes, etc, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Dec 8, 2017)

OK, here I go again. I jump over to a new forum just to see what's going on, and I'm gonna Pee a Puddle in your Pumpkin Pie. I keep re reading this and it looks worse every time. You're thinking of tying on with a 2 man "logging opp". If one is felling, and one is skidding, who is running to the mill? I know what it's like to be 29 and kinda lost. I got out of the tree biz at 29, for two reasons. One, I had worked from age 26 to 29 without one single day off. In the tree biz your customers don't want to take off a whole day just to show you one tree they want removed, so you do estimates on Saturday and Sunday. Then there was a clash between my wife and my mom. They were both accountants, my wife wanted to take over and my mom wasn't ready. I wasn't going to let the business come between all the people I loved, so I got out. My dad made $800,000 the last year he worked, I gave that up for piece of mind. I've made a lot of bad choices in my life. I don't call them mistakes, I call them learning experiences. I can look at my screw ups and say, Oh Well, I learned something. Can you do that? I still think this sounds more like a firewood opp than a logging opp. If you have supplies of firewood, jump over to that forum and seek advice there. I just don't see how you can be successful in logging with a 2, soon to be, 3 man opp. I'm just not seeing it. On the internet, every one can be brave, and tell you to live your dream. If I were your financial adviser, I'd want a lot more info. Do you have a financial adviser? You should. Dreams are great, but dreams take plans, to become real. I don't see a plan here. We need a lot more info to give an intelligent answer. Know this, I do care what happens to you, Joe.


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## thumbilly (Dec 8, 2017)

Ok so ill try again. To clarify i feel this to be more of a stepping stone. Either into a partnership or onto something more for myself or maybe a bigger company. Its hard to explain the entire aspect of my situation. Now logging here is a bit different. Michigan has been logged to death for years. Nothing gets big anymore. So the way most guys around here do it is they harvest for lumber for the saw mill and for firewood at the same time. Especially with all the dead ash. Its getting out there for good lumber. I had a big long explanation in my head at work but my mind doesnt flow well enough to get all the things i think typed out. Right now im a full time machinist. (Any archery guys on here? I work at the factory thats builds moxie bows). I work every extra waking second i have doing firewood. I get given a woods full of dead ash and i harvest it from start to finish. Most of the time as a one man band. I also farm a few acres and bale some grass hay to sell. Do some wrenching on the side for the neighbors. (Was a mechanic for 6 years). I currently have about 50 acres of woods to clear the dead ash out of. What kinda spurred this whole thing is i asked these guys if they wanted to team up and get them cleaned out. Working the hours i do there just isnt enough time. I have a small arsenal of saws, a skid steer with tracks and a grapple bucket and access to all the eq. at my parents farm. Oh and a 5ton military truck i haul the wood with. I can fabricate and weld. I spent thousands of dollars on snap tools only to decide i had enough of busted knuckles. I have almost no machinist tools and i dont want to go down the same road again. Ive spent the last few years learning and growing moving towards going head first into firewood. 

I actually quit my first machinist job last year and when back part time at the mechanic shop so i could sell wood. It ended up being a warm winter and i didn't sell much. Wasnt a big deal i didnt have a big bank note or anything. Then it just happened that i hauled a load of hay for my dad to my current boss's deer ranch. We got talking about my skills and he ended up sweet talking me into this job. Most of it was just hot air. One way or the other im not working there for the next 40 years. Im young and able now and dont want to get a bunch of time in somewhere and not be able to take a chance and follow my passion. 

This is the job description his exact text. (You'd be doing anything from cutting trees down running skidster marking the logs out buckin up welding and wrench with us. Yeah i think youd fit in just fine! Shitty workin in the winter at times but we dont alwaus log we plow snow 2 and im sure youd do fine at that 2. Was thinking about paying you daily be cash at the end of the week and you could still do your own fire wd sales we normally work 5 days a week but some days we don't work Ben's Weather or equipment is now and sometimes we have to mark and look at jobs to line them up days like that if you weren't working for us you still have time to do your firewood sales). Unedited obviously.

Theres lots more i wanted to say but its impossible for me to truly convey the whole picture. On a side note im not in the best shape ive ever been but im 6'5" 250lbs. Decent not lean and ripped. Im also a volunteer firefighter so danger is nothing new. 

Just fyi i failed English class twice and speech once because i cant write to save my life.










































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## Slicksty6 (Dec 9, 2017)

Love the truck and trailer!


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## paco_06 (Dec 9, 2017)

thumbilly said:


> Ok so ill try again. To clarify i feel this to be more of a stepping stone. Either into a partnership or onto something more for myself or maybe a bigger company. Its hard to explain the entire aspect of my situation. Now logging here is a bit different. Michigan has been logged to death for years. Nothing gets big anymore. So the way most guys around here do it is they harvest for lumber for the saw mill and for firewood at the same time. Especially with all the dead ash. Its getting out there for good lumber. I had a big long explanation in my head at work but my mind doesnt flow well enough to get all the things i think typed out. Right now im a full time machinist. (Any archery guys on here? I work at the factory thats builds moxie bows). I work every extra waking second i have doing firewood. I get given a woods full of dead ash and i harvest it from start to finish. Most of the time as a one man band. I also farm a few acres and bale some grass hay to sell. Do some wrenching on the side for the neighbors. (Was a mechanic for 6 years). I currently have about 50 acres of woods to clear the dead ash out of. What kinda spurred this whole thing is i asked these guys if they wanted to team up and get them cleaned out. Working the hours i do there just isnt enough time. I have a small arsenal of saws, a skid steer with tracks and a grapple bucket and access to all the eq. at my parents farm. Oh and a 5ton military truck i haul the wood with. I can fabricate and weld. I spent thousands of dollars on snap tools only to decide i had enough of busted knuckles. I have almost no machinist tools and i dont want to go down the same road again. Ive spent the last few years learning and growing moving towards going head first into firewood.
> 
> I actually quit my first machinist job last year and when back part time at the mechanic shop so i could sell wood. It ended up being a warm winter and i didn't sell much. Wasnt a big deal i didnt have a big bank note or anything. Then it just happened that i hauled a load of hay for my dad to my current boss's deer ranch. We got talking about my skills and he ended up sweet talking me into this job. Most of it was just hot air. One way or the other im not working there for the next 40 years. Im young and able now and dont want to get a bunch of time in somewhere and not be able to take a chance and follow my passion.
> 
> ...


OK, now that you've shared that info, from an outsider looking in, I think you now have two options that should sound appealing. 
1- like I said earlier become a partner, you definitely have the skills and equipment to bring something to the table. No no l need in just being and under paid hired hand.
2- work out something with your current job to work less hours so you can start to build your own business. Seems there's definitely perks to staying there for a while anyways. Having the equipment available to build your own parts/equipment is a huge bonus. May take a while, but I could see you building an automated firewood processor in your spare time!

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## bowtechmadman (Dec 9, 2017)

Where in Michigan?


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## thumbilly (Dec 9, 2017)

bowtechmadman said:


> Where in Michigan?


Sanilac county. Near argyle to be more specific. 

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## woodfarmer (Dec 9, 2017)

If I were 15 years younger I’d go for it, I’ll be 50 next year. these other fellows certainly don’t know your local market or situation like you do. You also have a trade to fall back on should things not pan out they way you want them to. However I’m confident you’ll do just fine.


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## Skeans (Dec 9, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Agreed. Very easy to make $300-500k disappear on used equipment just to get started.
> 
> Feller Buncher
> Delimber
> ...


Or you can go CTL harvester forwarder route 2 guys for under 500 used no one is on the ground L&I likes you a lot better, having a forwarder for yarding and loading is possible.

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## rarefish383 (Dec 9, 2017)

I've seen some farmers that needed 4 bolts to fasten something and used a flat head screw in one hole, a carriage bolt in one, a brass wood screw in one and a piece of steel bailing wire in the last. You, obviously did NOT grow up on that farm. Very nice work. Best of luck in your endeavors, if you fail at something, don't cry about it. Take it as a lesson learned. Don't ever say "I should have", because you didn't, and there are no do overs. Work hard and be careful. Farming is dangerous work so you have a head start being aware. I'd say follow your heart, but, hearts are notoriously unreliable. Follow you best judgement, talk to you wife, and pray, Joe.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 9, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Or you can go CTL harvester forwarder route 2 guys for under 500 used no one is on the ground L&I likes you a lot better, having a forwarder for yarding and loading is possible.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Yeah, certainly depends on the ground and timber on what works best. Around here a harvester works find on spruce, but doesn't do so well on birch or poplar.

We do the logging with just 2 guys. I work with my buddy (the guy who's shop I work out of) Typically my buddy with run the buncher for a couple days while I skid, and then he will hop in the delimber and keep the deck clear as I pull wood. If it's a long skid, he'll grab the 2nd skidder and pull wood. Sometimes we will head out to the job with the log truck so the trip isn't "wasted".

The logs either are turned into firewood or lumber. Lumber is done on a Woodmizer, my buddy handles that, though I help from time to time.

Ideally for my setup, we'd need a 2 man crew logging 3-4 days a week and a 3 man crew processing firewood year round. A good secretary to handle scheduling, calls, emails and the books and a mechanic to keep everything going.

I'm just in a spot where I'd need around 100+k or so to cover wages until the demand would hopefully meet production.
As is I could sell twice the firewood than I currently do.

It's pretty stressful and to be honest. I do miss having a 7-3 job and being able to do "me" things after work. Not to say that I work every waking hour, though there's really no "5PM". Even if I head home, I still have people calling or email for firewood, and I'm still thinking, ok, tomorrow I'm doing this, that, and this. There's always something.

I have to deal with customers, landowners, suppliers, etc. The customers want the firewood basically now, the landowners wants to know why we aren't there 40, 50+ hrs a week, I've got to deal with hired hands, often tough to find one that is decent or one that stays more than a few months. All the while I'm nursing old equipment hoping it'll last a few more years. It feels like I could be 4 people and still not be enough.
Oh, and then there's the weather. Sure is nice working outside the couple weeks it's 65* and sunny, but when it's blowing 70mph, -20* or pouring rain with a foot of mud, it's no fun!
Or you get sick, even if just for 3-4 days. I stayed home a few days a while back, I ended up turning off my phone, it barely had time to quit ringing when it was ringing again.

Seems like everytime you get ahead a bit, something happens... Blow a tire, transmission lets go, hydraulic pump, run over a chainsaw, etc.

I don't hate the work, but if I had to support a wife and kids on what I make, I don't think it would happen. I've been at it since 2011.


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## Skeans (Dec 10, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Yeah, certainly depends on the ground and timber on what works best. Around here a harvester works find on spruce, but doesn't do so well on birch or poplar.
> 
> We do the logging with just 2 guys. I work with my buddy (the guy who's shop I work out of) Typically my buddy with run the buncher for a couple days while I skid, and then he will hop in the delimber and keep the deck clear as I pull wood. If it's a long skid, he'll grab the 2nd skidder and pull wood. Sometimes we will head out to the job with the log truck so the trip isn't "wasted".
> 
> ...


Running a fixed processor head like I still do has some advantages one is line up of lengths of wood for a grapple skidder or track skidder like we use if doing long wood. The head itself was made for the hardwood back there and they hold up to it part of the reason they had the 4 roller was the ability to drive a head up ugly hardwoods. For forwarder cutting most of the time the tree is cut and fell ahead of you or to your no vision side so all processing is done on your vision side into the timber.

This style system works and can make logging affordable, productive, and profitable for a young company to make it.

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## Gologit (Dec 10, 2017)

Interesting thread. I don't know anything about logging in thumbilly's part of the world so I'm not qualified to give any specific advice.

One thing for sure, if thumbilly decides to go logging on any kind of full time basis he'll find out that _having_ to cut wood is a whole lot different from _getting_ to cut wood. 
If you're going to log, then log. 

Bitzer is one of the few I've seen that made a go of it without having any real background or family history in the business. He's the exception to the rule and because of that he's somebody to watch and learn from. His type of logging is the closest thing here to what you want to do. 
I'd listen to him.


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## bitzer (Dec 10, 2017)

Gologit said:


> Interesting thread. I don't know anything about logging in thumbilly's part of the world so I'm not qualified to give any specific advice.
> 
> One thing for sure, if thumbilly decides to go logging on any kind of full time basis he'll find out that _having_ to cut wood is a whole lot different from _getting_ to cut wood.
> If you're going to log, then log.
> ...


 

Thanks Bob. You're one of the guys that has helped me and I look up to. I think with anything in life when it gets to the point that you can't find any redeeming qualities in what you're doing it's time to move on.

Thumbilly- Logging is hard plain and simple. The life is not for everyone. It's really not for most people. When you're pulling the transmission out of your skidder and it's blowing -20 it sucks. It does. People ask me why not take it to a shop? Well that'll cost a grand just to move it and back and in that time of moving it I'll have er torn apart and put together again and skidding. I can rely on is that after it's done I can say I did that. I beat that and still made it happen and still made money. When it's 35 and raining and the wind picks up and your wet and cold and tired and your head hurts and you just want to say to hell with it and go home and yet you push ahead and run one more tank thru the saw because you have to. Because the bills are all due and the babies need shoes (thanks Mr cash for that line) you do it. I know guys who have the skills to work outside, but many can't hack it over the long term. Or they haven't planned ahead enough to keep that money rolling in. The skidder doesn't fire today because I didn't change the fuel filters last week before it got cold kind of stuff. I hear about it all the time. Or a guy takes the word of the parts dealer, waits two weeks for some part from Norway tries to put it in and its the wrong damn part and now you're four weeks without a paycheck and you end up having something machined you could have had done the day after it broke. Stuff like that will sink a guy. Or not having the size or quality or quantity of wood to justify your business. If you've got big timber say 20+ plus that your hand cutting all the time you can and will make money if you keep pushing. Hand cutting pulp and small dbh saw timber and you will push really hard to scrape by. Going mechanized isn't the answer either. You need a **** ton of small wood in front of you and a place to sell it and the means to move it. You don't get paid til the wood gets to where it's going and the banks don't care how business is going. I could ramble on and on about this. I'd be wary of a partnership of guys I didn't know well. I've heard some ugly stories of blown up skidders and guys disappearing when the bills are due.


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## InfiniteJest (Dec 10, 2017)

It's viable for me, but-

No kids, and not going to have any. I'm never home, my camper is more home than my actual house. When I am home it's pretty much making sure everything's ready to go for the next week. 

My wife has the grown up job. Good insurance, retirement. 

That's what makes it viable for me.


If you do it, do it right. I'm set up as my own llc and carry my own work comp insurance. Some guys do the IC exemption (don't carry work comp), which seems like asking for a limb to come down and break you ****ing neck.

Get something like QuickBooks and keep track of everything. I'm just one little falling contractor, but it seems a lot bigger come tax time.

Good luck, be safe.


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## Skeans (Dec 10, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Thanks Bob. You're one of the guys that has helped me and I look up to. I think with anything in life when it gets to the point that you can't find any redeeming qualities in what you're doing it's time to move on.
> 
> Thumbilly- Logging is hard plain and simple. The life is not for everyone. It's really not for most people. When you're pulling the transmission out of your skidder and it's blowing -20 it sucks. It does. People ask me why not take it to a shop? Well that'll cost a grand just to move it and back and in that time of moving it I'll have er torn apart and put together again and skidding. I can rely on is that after it's done I can say I did that. I beat that and still made it happen and still made money. When it's 35 and raining and the wind picks up and your wet and cold and tired and your head hurts and you just want to say to hell with it and go home and yet you push ahead and run one more tank thru the saw because you have to. Because the bills are all due and the babies need shoes (thanks Mr cash for that line) you do it. I know guys who have the skills to work outside, but many can't hack it over the long term. Or they haven't planned ahead enough to keep that money rolling in. The skidder doesn't fire today because I didn't change the fuel filters last week before it got cold kind of stuff. I hear about it all the time. Or a guy takes the word of the parts dealer, waits two weeks for some part from Norway tries to put it in and its the wrong damn part and now you're four weeks without a paycheck and you end up having something machined you could have had done the day after it broke. Stuff like that will sink a guy. Or not having the size or quality or quantity of wood to justify your business. If you've got big timber say 20+ plus that your hand cutting all the time you can and will make money if you keep pushing. Hand cutting pulp and small dbh saw timber and you will push really hard to scrape by. Going mechanized isn't the answer either. You need a **** ton of small wood in front of you and a place to sell it and the means to move it. You don't get paid til the wood gets to where it's going and the banks don't care how business is going. I could ramble on and on about this. I'd be wary of a partnership of guys I didn't know well. I've heard some ugly stories of blown up skidders and guys disappearing when the bills are due.


Bitzer let me throw this is too is also depends on if you're thinning or clear cutting both run on different rates especially out here. To the mechanical part it all depends on if you can work on it as well as get parts for said machine, like a Fabtek Joral new computer is 3k vs a quadco I know was around 20k. Everything on our fabtek I can source myself I don't have to go through Cat or JP Skidmore other then cylinder bodies.

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## ArtB (Dec 10, 2017)

_When it's 35 and raining and the wind picks up and your wet and cold and tired and your head hurts and you just want to say to hell with it and go home_

LOL. 

Hey, that just happened last spring! old JD440 out in the woods quit, no compression one cyl - BUT, just being a 'hobby', pulled the head off, greased up the cyl walls, threw a rubber mat over it, and took it home to nice warm garage and did a valve job. 8 mo later still have not put the head back on ! Maybe over Christmas holidays if we have a couple dry days.


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## bitzer (Dec 10, 2017)

Thumbilly I'm not trying to discourage you I'm really not. Like I said in my first post- I walked into the woods when I was 29 with my shirt on my back a family to feed and about 40k in debt. It's ballsy as hell. My dad and most of my uncle's worked in offices. My grandfather's worked in offices. I was on my way to becoming a pharmacist and my dad said to me one night around the fire after a bunch of beer and he said, son I dont see you happy being a bean counter, behind a desk, working a job like that. I knew he was right and I had the feeling for a long time and it took the words out in the open air for me to really let that thing die and to follow the call of the woods. My wife would yell at me as we drove around because I'd be staring at stands of timber. There were times were it got ugly and I got pretty downhearted. I felt stuck on the path I was on and all I could think about was the woods. I knew if I didn't give it a try I would regret it for the rest of my life. There were times when I first got started that I almost lost hope that I could do it. Times that nearly broke my marriage up. Getting 3-4 hours of sleep because of sick kids in the middle of the night and having to drive an hour and a half through the biggest city in the state on icy snow covered roads at 530 in the morning and gas prices at four and a half bucks a gallon and the ground never seeming to want to freeze and nearly getting killed more then once cutting big ugly hard leaning oak timber that I really had no business cutting that green- I'm amazed I survived that first winter. But I learned. Everyday I learned. And I anticipated. The trees, and the skids, and the repairs. Even if I had someone to hold my hand and teach me I don't think I could have learned as much. Learning the hard way is a *****. But you really earn it that way. Alright I gotta quit with the ramble. I could go on and the more beer I drink the more colorful. Other then some enormous unforeseen circumstances I don't see my self ever quitting logging. I love it.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 10, 2017)

Ya know, the pure stupid **** i pulled 5 6 years ago frightens me today.

I honestly surprised i lived through it.


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## Skeans (Dec 11, 2017)

Anyone looking into this field it's hard it's tough but don't give up, the best advice I ever got is shut up and listen you'll learn something new everyday if you don't you're dead.
Now to what bitzer said I love my work like him or Matt the only difference is I'm 4th generation logger 3rd generation working for a company all the time. Now doing that is worth it's weight in gold the money is steady and work is I'm not sure what's out there but that's what I'd do.

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## thumbilly (Dec 11, 2017)

I cant tell you guys how much i appreciate all the advice. All the points you guys bring up are things im constantly weighing to make this decision. I know that no one can make the decision for me. You guys give me alot of perspective and things to thing about. All i can say is Thankyou! 

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## Gologit (Dec 11, 2017)

Let us know what you decide and how it worked out for you.


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## Gologit (Dec 11, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya know, the pure stupid **** i pulled 5 6 years ago frightens me today.
> 
> I honestly surprised i lived through it.



Don't worry, you have lots of company in that.
I was taught well by guys with a lot of experience. That, unfortunately, made the dumb mistakes I made even dumber. 
Domino falling was my big weakness and I loved to see three or four or more trees all go over at once. A lot of times all it made was a big damn mess that took me longer to straighten out than it was worth.
I knew better than to try some of the stuff I did. I got away with it. Other guys weren't so lucky.
And, like so many others, it was just pure luck that decided the outcome.
I figure I used up all my luck early on.


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## RandyMac (Dec 11, 2017)

Gologit said:


> Don't worry, you have lots of company in that.
> I was taught well by guys with a lot of experience. That, unfortunately, made the dumb mistakes I made even dumber.
> Domino falling was my big weakness and I loved to see three or four or more trees all go over at once. A lot of times all it made was a big damn mess that took me longer to straighten out than it was worth.
> I knew better than to try some of the stuff I did. I got away with it. Other guys weren't so lucky.
> ...



I did that a couple times and yeah it was fun to watch, however...
Knocking one over with another can be useful.
I did a few little jobs on my own, the satisfaction factor was high, mostly worked with small 3 to 5 man outfits, leaving the major headaches for someone else.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 11, 2017)

I know too many guys that have been hurt dominoing trees, i dont even like pushing 2, use it when needed but it makes me real nervous.

That and i have to hand limb em, a big ole pile of **** just is a gods damn pain to dig through


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## thumbilly (Dec 11, 2017)

It works really well if there's a cluster and a few are back leaning. If they're dead ash it works really well as long as they aren't all wrapped in vines. When they all smash together there's no limbs left! 

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## Gologit (Dec 11, 2017)

RandyMac said:


> I did that a couple times and yeah it was fun to watch, however...
> Knocking one over with another can be useful.
> I did a few little jobs on my own, the satisfaction factor was high, mostly worked with small 3 to 5 man outfits, leaving the major headaches for someone else.



I never did it on the coast. If I had tried dominoing some of that OG somebody would have probably shot me. And they'd have every right to. I don't even want to think about blowing up two or three trees at once.
Over in the Sierras was a different story. Piss-fir will stand up to just about anything and not go to shreds . That was the first place I ever saw anybody domino trees. I'd heard stories about it but never actually seen it.
Remember the red fir up around the high lakes above Sattley? You could bounce that stuff off of rocks or stumps all day long. Until it got rotten anyway. Then it would crumble like cork.


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## jomoco (Dec 11, 2017)

You guys ever read Dozer? AN elementary school book about sneaky Wiley ole logger?

So it's way up north, winter and the lakes frozen with thick ice. Poor bloke from a road crew parks his dozer a bit too far out on the ice overnight, it breaks through the ice, sinks about fifteen feet, the company writes it off n leaves it there sunk.

A few years pass, the ole logger discovers the sunken dozer, calls the road crew company, and asks for the dozer's title, if he gets it up on the beach?

Owner says sure, but how yu gonna do it without another dozer cables n blocks?

Wiley logger says come on out n watch me?

Precuts three huge conifer's at their base, after cabling them together fifty feet up, and attaching the slacked cable to the sunken dozer, trips the dominoes, yanking the dozer up onto the beach.

Replaces the water fouled dozer components, fires her up, and brags the logs off to his mill.

Gave me an admiration for loggers at an early age, 4th grade!

Jomoco


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## fool skip (Dec 11, 2017)

I used to like to knock down piss fir snags with a green tree so I wouldn't have to fall em. After a few chunks came flying by I decided that wasn't a great idea. It is cool to watch the helicopter fly around with a 1,000 ft. butt log and knock em down for you. Bappin snags. Prolly a no no in these ***** days.


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## RandyMac (Dec 11, 2017)

Reds were pretty tough, most of the big ones were rotten, the Whites could be tender halfway up.


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## Skeans (Dec 11, 2017)

RandyMac said:


> Reds were pretty tough, most of the big ones were rotten, the Whites could be tender halfway up.
> View attachment 618150


Randy what year was the picture taken?

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## RandyMac (Dec 11, 2017)

1986, Yuba Pass area, still carrying a steel plate in my leg.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 11, 2017)

not to remind you of yer age or nuthin... but 30 years ago...


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## RandyMac (Dec 11, 2017)

yeah back when there were real trees


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## jomoco (Dec 11, 2017)

Yeah, the old days were rough, puttin steel in yu to hold everything together.

These days they use titanium for such things, flexes a bit better, and doesn't rust at all.

Don't ask me how I know ole timer!

Jomoco


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## Johnmn (Dec 14, 2017)

@thumbilly 
To answer your question yes it it possible to make a living. The majority of the population will tell you that you "need " a grapple skidder, feller buncher, delimber 
$300- $600k or more in equipment.
Well not me, I know several loggers personally here in MN including myself who make a living with payed for cable skidders and a hand full of chainsaws. Now are we making big money? Nope but we're supporting our families!


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## thumbilly (Dec 14, 2017)

So an update. Went and tried it out today with those guys. It was nice to be outside. It was a beautiful winter day here. We were cutting pulp wood and firewood up at the tip of the thumb. Worked my *** off. All hand cuttinghttp://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5a3304de4c1e1/received_307584326.mp4http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5a33050a58de8/received_539480699.mp4

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## IcePick (Feb 1, 2018)

Been lurking for a long while. Interested how its going.


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## IcePick (Feb 1, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> I know too many guys that have been hurt dominoing trees, i dont even like pushing 2, use it when needed but it makes me real nervous.
> 
> That and i have to hand limb em, a big ole pile of **** just is a gods damn pain to dig through


 This is how I just about killed myself in the woods. Tried knocking a springy elm over with a rather large oak. The elm never went, just sprung the oak back at me and caught me good. Happened so fast I had absoolutely not a second to react. After 4 years or so, that scenario still plays out in my head like ptsd or a bad dream I can't stop thinking about.


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## thumbilly (Feb 1, 2018)

Well things at the shop went all kinds of sideways and they restructured the management. I felt it was as good of time as any for a change so i made the call and took the leap. This is my second week and so far its been alright. I was definitely out of shape. Ofcourse i came on right on time to get broke in on some hard maple grade jobs. I find myself disappointed in the quality of husqvarna's bars....

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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

thumbilly said:


> Well things at the shop went all kinds of sideways and they restructured the management. I felt it was as good of time as any for a change so i made the call and took the leap. This is my second week and so far its been alright. I was definitely out of shape. Ofcourse i came on right on time to get broke in on some hard maple grade jobs. I find myself disappointed in the quality of husqvarna's bars....
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



excellent


Husqvarna bars are just repainted Oregon bars.


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## Gologit (Feb 1, 2018)

thumbilly said:


> Well things at the shop went all kinds of sideways and they restructured the management. I felt it was as good of time as any for a change so i made the call and took the leap. This is my second week and so far its been alright. I was definitely out of shape. Ofcourse i came on right on time to get broke in on some hard maple grade jobs. I find myself disappointed in the quality of husqvarna's bars....
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



Thanks for letting us know. Good luck to you. Keep us posted.


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## bitzer (Feb 2, 2018)

IcePick said:


> This is how I just about killed myself in the woods. Tried knocking a springy elm over with a rather large oak. The elm never went, just sprung the oak back at me and caught me good. Happened so fast I had absoolutely not a second to react. After 4 years or so, that scenario still plays out in my head like ptsd or a bad dream I can't stop thinking about.




I should have just destroyed that stupid ****ing hunting stand with that big oak up the hill and it never would have happened. That day still bugs me too.


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## IcePick (Feb 2, 2018)

bitzer said:


> I should have just destroyed that stupid ****ing hunting stand with that big oak up the hill and it never would have happened. That day still bugs me too.


But, I ****ed up by not running fast from the stump. Just backed away briskly while watching it play out, big no no.


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## DSW (Feb 10, 2018)

I went the other way. I took the safe route. Wife works part time and only one kid at this point. It's not my dream job but it's good money, paid holidays, vacation, insurance. Nice having a paycheck you can count on. I wanna really pad the savings before I make a change.


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## DSW (Oct 30, 2018)

This thread needs an update. 

So busy he can't reply? Had to sell his computer for groceries and can't respond?

Inquiring minds need to know


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## thumbilly (Oct 30, 2018)

DSW said:


> This thread needs an update.
> 
> So busy he can't reply? Had to sell his computer for groceries and can't respond?
> 
> Inquiring minds need to know


Well I'm still sending it. Had a rough month though. Ash trees have been after me. Went to the er today. Got swatted in the knee. 

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## rwoods (Oct 30, 2018)

Hope your knee heals quickly. Ron


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## thumbilly (Oct 30, 2018)

rwoods said:


> Hope your knee heals quickly. Ron


Thanks. Me too. Go to an orthopedic dr Thursday. We'll see how bad then. Guess it's pretty good when you have set it back straight to get out of the woods.

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## rwoods (Oct 30, 2018)

Ouch. Ron


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## thumbilly (Oct 30, 2018)

rwoods said:


> Ouch. Ron


Oh boy

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## DSW (Oct 31, 2018)

thumbilly said:


> Well I'm still sending it. Had a rough month though. Ash trees have been after me. Went to the er today. Got swatted in the knee.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Good to hear you're still after it. I was just joking about selling the computer for groceries.

Hopefully the knee turns out alright.


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## sb47 (Oct 31, 2018)

I stayed in a lower income job because I just loved what I was doing. I don't have any regrets sacrificing money over happiness. Enjoying your work is very valuable and shouldn't be ignored. But I was also lucky in that I didn't need the health care benefits that came with a better paying job. If I had I may feel different.


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## Little Al (Oct 31, 2018)

Could I suggest that if you go for subcontracting whatever the T&Cs are get it IN WRITING the verbal contract tends to wander/ alter somewhat & if you don't record it (who does) it's a word against word "jobbie" +it's amazing how things change were the $ is concerned whatever expect the worst & safeguard yourself then if it turns out OK it's a + There are many good people out there but the something for nothing/very little seems to be a growing trend world wide.


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## thumbilly (Nov 27, 2018)

Yeah so it's been about a month. Havent been "working". But I've stayed busy with my own work. Looking like I might be done logging. At least with this company. It was alot of let us know what you need at first. But quickly turned into you're on your own when they found out I wouldnt be back to work by the end of the week. Some talk of loaning me money but none about the medical bills or lost income. Looking like a lesson well learned. 

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## DSW (Nov 29, 2018)

thumbilly said:


> Yeah so it's been about a month. Havent been "working". But I've stayed busy with my own work. Looking like I might be done logging. At least with this company. It was alot of let us know what you need at first. But quickly turned into you're on your own when they found out I wouldnt be back to work by the end of the week. Some talk of loaning me money but none about the medical bills or lost income. Looking like a lesson well learned.




Sorry to hear that. Keep your head up. I reread some of the earlier posts, can't believe this thread is nearly a year old, and it's kinda chilling how some of it played out. The good thing is you have your trade and skills to fall back on.


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## thumbilly (Nov 29, 2018)

DSW said:


> Sorry to hear that. Keep your head up. I reread some of the earlier posts, can't believe this thread is nearly a year old, and it's kinda chilling how some of it played out. The good thing is you have your trade and skills to fall back on.


Really at a "what now" moment in my life. Small farms are all but dead here now. Which is what I was raised on. Probably where mine mindset to stay away from big businesses comes from and the need to be outside. I either have to settle and fall back into a small shop or factory. Or I move out the area in hopes of making more money at a big place. Just unsure right now.... Really do love being in the woods just cant risk another situation like this.

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## bfrazier (Dec 2, 2018)

thumbilly said:


> Really at a "what now" moment in my life. Really do love being in the woods just cant risk another situation like this.



I read every post from the beginning of your trials and tribulations about a year ago until this week's "What now" moment. And I'd like to ask, are you glad you tried it?

When you hurt your knee I thought "Oh, ****!" I did not see anyone offer the fact that logging is the most deadly profession in America, which it still is, we've lost 9 thus far this year here in Oregon. I kept thinking about your family that need a consistent pay check and the 4 little ones who need their Dad. When you get busted up, it's over, and what was so easy at 29 becomes damned hard at my age of 58, twice yours.

Here in Oregon logging fell on such hard times in our little communities that people turned against each other - it's not the same as it was. The smaller the outfit the closer you were to bottom man on the totem pole too - sound familiar? Some great outfits made it through but there was plenty of human casualties too. Hard times came, the number of unemployed, on food stamps, working two jobs, divorced, and the suicides - all followed. Timber prices were at record highs this past spring are headed for half the value this winter, few businesses have that volatility.

And so I wondered (considering the machinist skills you have), about all the outdoor jobs (sounds like you would enjoy the outdoors) that involve servicing equipment that could provide experience, a solid wage, and were much less dangerous and would maybe more stable than the timber industry is. Men that work for Caterpillar or other heavy equipment firms at mines, oil wells, and landings all over the country could answer that better than I.

So as for your "What now moment..." That's only natural. Perhaps make a list. Maybe ask you family for input. Get their support and get some prospects going. Parlay what you have toward where you want to be. Make some long range goals too.

I'll go back to minding my own business now (I'm retired) and hope you check back in here again down the road - lots of good people here are obviously hoping you succeed. Me too.

Best of luck to you!


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