# Virgin forests



## livemusic (Jan 15, 2016)

Maybe they exist, but I am not aware of any (even small) patches of virgin forest in my area. I have heard that in Northeast Louisiana, there are some on the island hunting clubs of the Mississippi River. That would be cool to see.

Do you have any virgin patches in your area? What are they like? Do you have access?

Trying to envision how a virgin forest in this area would subsist. I wonder if oaks and pines would get so big that a forest fire wouldn't wipe them out. If so, I guess you would have ultra-large trees and every once in awhile one would die and that would open up that canopy area for regeneration.

Sad that there are none here. The closest I can come to it is a wildlife refuge here; those trees are pretty impressive, but many were logged many decades ago.

My dad used to own land next to tract that the biggest water oak trees I have seen. They were magnificent. It wasn't that big of an area, just a few acres, but the trees were huge and they flanked a hill coming up off of a bottomland spring creek. It was like being in a cathedral. About ten years ago, they cut them when they logged the entire tract. Ugh.

I also wonder how long hardwoods and southern pines can live.

If patches exist here and there, it would cool to see them.


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## Del_ (Jan 15, 2016)

Google 'Old Growth Forest' and see what you find.


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## madhatte (Jan 15, 2016)

"Virgin Forest" is conceptually a moving target. I'm going to assume that you mean "never before cut by man", in which case, any tree standing represents a microcosm of "Virgin Forest". Perhaps you want to put an age limit on it? 50 years is old for an alder or a cottonwood. Maybe a size limit? I've measured 80" Douglas-firs that were only 80 years old. Maybe you mean an acreage? There's thousands of single acres of big, old trees scattered around all over the place which were never cut for some reason, usually having to do with either the expense and difficulty of logging them, or with the poor quality of overmature trees. 

Perhaps you are inferring some sort of forest structure? There we go, something meaty and reproducible. Most of the time when we speak of "Old Growth", we are speaking of an area of forest that is structurally similar within its boundaries which is sufficiently complex, both vertically and horizontally, to have passed through the entire seral pathway from young stand to middle-aged stand to old stand. It will have accumulated coarse woody debris on the forest floor as some individual treed die to to weather, disease, insects, competition, or any of a number of other factors. It will have large trees in the overstory, medium-sized ones in the midstory, and smaller ones in the understory, as well as a shrub layer and a ground layer. Larger trees will usually have accumulated the kind of damage that comes with age. Smaller trees will be mostly suppressed due to shade from above. There will be a complex web of animal, plant, fungal, and bacterial communities throughout the three dimensions, including, critically, in the soil itself. 

However: there are all kinds of disturbance that will change these dynamics. Disease, fire, flooding, volcanoes, etc. So: the 36-year-old forest surrounding Mt St Helens is on soil created in 1980 and has never been cut by man... but is also brand-new in geologic time. If a stand burns in a wildfire, is the new stand "Virgin"? Would it have been 500 years ago, given the same constraints? 

I guess what I'm getting at is that "Virgin Forest" is a subjective thing. I work in the woods, and I don't bother with such a label, because it's not useful. I describe what I see. That's my job as a forester. I suspect that if you learn to look at every patch of forest as a unique product of its history, you'll find a lot to get interested in, no matter where you are, or how old the trees are.


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## Gologit (Jan 15, 2016)

Well said.


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## madhatte (Jan 15, 2016)

Thank you!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 15, 2016)

going with a standard view of "virgin"... as in unsullyed by men.

Then no there is none left in the United States, there is old growth that hasn't been logged and yes its impressive but its full of trails, yuppies and FS signs warning you to stay on the trail.

There is a large amount of hard to get to old growth near me, other then the spotted owl probably the only reason it didn't get logged. but like I said its close but hard to get too. Kinda like being in a bank and you know there is 2 million in the vault but you will never ever touch it.

However if you would like to run amok in some good ole national park old growth "virgin" forests, check out the Hoh Rain Forest, Olympic National park, Boulder River Basin, or any of something in the neighbor hood of 600 FS hiking trails all along the Cascade mountains. Or just break down and hike the pacific crest trail, it takes around 4 months and you'll need to mail drop food and supplys


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## northmanlogging (Jan 15, 2016)

But don't move here


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## Cycledude (Jan 15, 2016)

There is at least one stand of virgin timber in Wisconsin, many years ago some loggers wife put up a big fuss to let some of it stand, it is on some pretty rough ground so back in those days it would have been difficult to log, I have been there a couple times, the trees mostly white pine are nice but not really that spectacular, it used to be listed on the wi dnr website that's how I found it about 10 years ago , they have since changed the dnr website , it might still be on there but I searched for it a few minutes ago and was unable to find it, if I remember right it's not to far from Shawno wi, they have a marked gravel road going through it and I have rode motorcycle and snowmobile through it.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 15, 2016)

meh, i don't like that term. it implies that there are trees here that were here before man, i don't believe that. it may be there are really old trees but by and large you either harvest a tree or it dies and falls over. there are stands here no one ever cut and the whole stand died in a space of a few years because all the trees were about the same age which is not a healthy forest.

having said that, i cut what most people think is virgin timber all the time......it isn't, its been cut before. its just that i specialize in mature timber. you see, its all relative. trees live longer than we do but every living thing dies.
probably much of the timber land in your area has been converted to pine plantation. much land here has been as well.......i do not consider that a forest, but a crop.


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## madhatte (Jan 16, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> trees live longer than we do but every living thing dies.



I think this is at the heart of the "Old Growth" debate. Since trees live so much longer than we do, we humans are inclined to romanticize them as superhuman or even supernatural. They're really cool but they're not magic. Everything lives within the framework of what allows it to survive, and what prevents it from surviving, until the latter beats the former. I also think that there's an element of guilt. It's pretty obvious that Industrialization has had a negative impact on large swaths of natural resources, and it's natural to regret that nothing was done to prevent those impacts. However, it's far more productive to look to the future and to what we can do better than it is to look back and condemn mistakes that can't be undone. Often we can only learn through our mistakes. A hundred years ago, it looked like the resources of the American west had no end. Now we can see that there is an end only if we continue to mismanage our resources. Improved management is a reasonable goal.


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## Cycledude (Jan 16, 2016)

Ok I just found it in an old Wisconsin gazetteer .
Cathedral of pines, 3 miles SW of Lakewood, 715-276-6333
One of few remaining stands of virgin pines in Wisconsin.
20 acre parcel in Nicolete national forest.
Pine trees ranging from 200-400 years old.


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## Samlock (Jan 16, 2016)

Patches of "never done by anyone" virgin forests are scattered everywhere up here. Most of them are not too impressive, though. You wouldn't probably know the stand is over 500 years old without drilling out the trees. An old growth stand may well look like this.


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## Del_ (Jan 16, 2016)

Here's a link to a large list of old growth forest in the USA and elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_old-growth_forests


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## bitzer (Jan 16, 2016)

Cycledude said:


> Ok I just found it in an old Wisconsin gazetteer .
> Cathedral of pines, 3 miles SW of Lakewood, 715-276-6333
> One of few remaining stands of virgin pines in Wisconsin.
> 20 acre parcel in Nicolete national forest.
> Pine trees ranging from 200-400 years old.


There is also the "lost forty" which is near Black river falls i believe. I know of a few others up north were the trees are suddenly twice as tall and thick as anything near it. Like maybe break up came and an acre wasn't worth going back for the next winter. There is also a 20 acre piece fifteen minutes from my house (northern kettle moraine unit) that the dnr claims was never cut. The best stands i have cut around here were clearcut 150+ years ago and were allowed to grow back all at once. Nice tall straight timber. The menomonie indian reservation was also not cut until fairly recent times. My trucker hauled a 6 log load of white pine (3 on truck, 3 on pup) ten years ago from there.


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## Wood Sniffer (Jan 16, 2016)

Not realy any forest round here but occanal cottonwood that you could prob drive a small car though if ya carved em out. something else seeing a tree that size.


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## muddstopper (Jan 30, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Kilmer_Memorial_Forest


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 30, 2016)

Samlock said:


> Patches of "never done by anyone" virgin forests are scattered everywhere up here. Most of them are not too impressive, though. You wouldn't probably know the stand is over 500 years old without drilling out the trees. An old growth stand may well look like this.




Looks like the woods north of here a ways (Palmer, AK). You in Alaska?


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## livemusic (Jan 30, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Kilmer_Memorial_Forest



Thanks for that. It's a shame that it's not really old growth, since they lost the chestnuts and hemlocks. But I'd like to see it.


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## A10egress (Jan 30, 2016)

still some "old growth" here in PA and let me say, its beautiful. http://dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/oldgrowthforests/aboutoldgrowth/index.htm


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## Samlock (Jan 31, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Looks like the woods north of here a ways (Palmer, AK). You in Alaska?



On the same level, but on the opposite side of the big ball. Scandinavia.


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## Michaelmj11 (Feb 1, 2016)

livemusic said:


> Maybe they exist, but I am not aware of any (even small) patches of virgin forest in my area. I have heard that in Northeast Louisiana, there are some on the island hunting clubs of the Mississippi River. That would be cool to see.
> 
> Do you have any virgin patches in your area? What are they like? Do you have access?
> 
> ...



There is a small patch in central MS not listed on that wiki page. Somewhere in Bienville National Forest.



treeslayer2003 said:


> meh, i don't like that term. it implies that there are trees here that were here before man, i don't believe that. it may be there are really old trees but by and large you either harvest a tree or it dies and falls over. there are stands here no one ever cut and the whole stand died in a space of a few years because all the trees were about the same age which is not a healthy forest.
> 
> having said that, i cut what most people think is virgin timber all the time......it isn't, its been cut before. its just that i specialize in mature timber. you see, its all relative. trees live longer than we do but every living thing dies.
> probably much of the timber land in your area has been converted to pine plantation. much land here has been as well.......i do not consider that a forest, but a crop.



Most folk don't realize that around the revolutionary war there wasn't a 20 year old tree left standing from basically MA down to NC.... might have been the civil war, I can't remember which battlepark lectured on it.


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## Samlock (Feb 1, 2016)

I've cut some old fierce WWII battle zones. The artillery fire and air bombing do cut trees down efficiently, yet the concentrated fire areas are usually quite limited. There is always trees left from the battle. The survivors contain steel and nickel enough to drive a sawmill guy mad by the metal detector beeping.

Goes with people who had to take the fire as well.

The little I know of the North American Civil war, I reckon the battles were mostly old school field maneuvers. The troops wanted to see each other in order to get engaged. I'm guessing the field commanders had at least the firing sectors cleared by ax. I'm also guessing the wood was a prime resource for the 19th century forces, who had not much movable resources of energy or constructing supply available. It'd be wise to burn down all the forests before an enemy advancing.

A lot of guessing, I suppose.


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## Michaelmj11 (Feb 1, 2016)

Samlock said:


> I've cut some old fierce WWII battle zones. The artillery fire and air bombing do cut trees down efficiently, yet the concentrated fire areas are usually quite limited. There is always trees left from the battle. The survivors contain steel and nickel enough to drive a sawmill guy mad by the metal detector beeping.
> 
> Goes with people who had to take the fire as well.
> 
> ...



It was from home building and over logging the land (or at least that was the reason the Park Ranger person gave). I had asked about how they had gotten horse drawn cannons up and down the tree clad hills, and the answer was "No trees"


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## moondoggie (Feb 1, 2016)

http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/nfsnc/null/recarea/?recid=48920&actid=70 

Here ya go not to far from where I live.


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