# mixing ratios for 2 stroke chainsaws



## sawmill sam (Nov 3, 2022)

I recently had a conversation about mixing ratios for 2 stroke chainsaws and I would like to hear more opinions about it.
I have watched 2 you tube videos that confirm what I have always thought, that more oil causes more heat because it burns hotter than gas. 
Here is a link to one of the videos I watched on this subject (by Dave's small engine channel) and I would like to hear what our experts have to say in this forum about this video.
It is a simple and effective method to prove my point that heat levels increase when more oil is used.



thanks in advance and sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here!


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## bryannewton (Nov 3, 2022)

And would it make a difference if the saw was tuned for each fuel for this test


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Nov 3, 2022)

If he’s not turning the saw for each mix, more oil = less fuel = running lean which would make it run hotter.


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## bryannewton (Nov 3, 2022)

That what I was thinking


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## sawmill sam (Nov 3, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> If he’s not turning the saw for each mix, more oil = less fuel = running lean which would make it run hotter.


OK, so when I thought that through it didn't add up to me. When you richen the mix that puts even more oil into the combustion chamber, no matter what the oil ratio is. I still think more oil = more heat no matter how you tune it because oil burns hotter than gas. I will try and locate the other video I watched about this last year.
thanks for the response. I hope more people will "tune in" to this thread!


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## J D (Nov 3, 2022)

Adding more oil displaces a small amount of fuel in the air:fuel mix... less fuel means slightly leaner = slightly hotter & higher rpms. Small changes like oil brand (yes a different brand/type of oil can make a difference too) or slightly heavier mix ratio aren't usually significant. Problems occur when a saw is tuned on the lean side already & a change pushes it over the cusp of meltdown.
*My recommendation is to tune for the conditions & the mix you are running.*
When choosing a mix, bear in mind that a lack of oil kills thousands of times more motors than carbon build up, & while oil has come a very long way, it has become leaner over time primarily for environmental reasons over equipment lifespan.
Dammit... here we go....


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## Chevboy0167 (Nov 3, 2022)

^^^^LOL^^^^


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## J D (Nov 3, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> OK, so when I thought that through it didn't add up to me. When you richen the mix that puts even more oil into the combustion chamber, no matter what the oil ratio is. I still think more oil = more heat no matter how you tune it because oil burns hotter than gas. I will try and locate the other video I watched about this last year.
> thanks for the response. I hope more people will "tune in" to this thread!


Fuel does a lot in the way of cooling. Essentially you need enough oil in your fuel to give good lubrication, & enough fuel to slightly exceed the "optimum" air fuel ratio. The additional fuel helps cooling & brings rpm down to mechanical design.
Different oils burn differently


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## ballisticdoughnut (Nov 3, 2022)

Absolutely zero point running 25:1 with a good quality synthetic mix oil. 32:1 is the heaviest I would go and only for a milling application. 40:1 is what I prefer for general use.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 3, 2022)

How the heck did we ever run anything two stroke prior to the mid 1980's and the introduction of the internet?


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## Pioneer (Nov 3, 2022)

Short answer, depends on your saw and oil.
I see no reason to ever run 25:1 unless you have plain crankshaft bearings in your equipment like some old outboards do. This is 2022, not 1960, and oils have come a long way. 
Some oils are set up for 100:1, and this will work fine in equipment that does not have a high power/displacement ratio, although I know of a pro saw run at 100:1 with Opti for decades. 
Most are marketed to run at 50:1, and many members have run various brands at this ratio for years with no problems. 
A lot of people run 40:1 for the claim of extra engine life and for the extra insurance against scoring the cylinder, it's probably a good idea if you cut wood in hot weather.
The video in the link can be discounted, as people point out you have to re-tune the saw for the change.

Do a search on the site and you will find thousands of posts on oil, the more opinions you gather, the better you are able to make a decision for your application.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Nov 3, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> OK, so when I thought that through it didn't add up to me. When you richen the mix that puts even more oil into the combustion chamber, no matter what the oil ratio is. I still think more oil = more heat no matter how you tune it because oil burns hotter than gas. I will try and locate the other video I watched about this last year.
> thanks for the response. I hope more people will "tune in" to this thread!


your air stays the same, so fattening the saw up gives more fuel to the same amount of air.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 3, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> your air stays the same, so fattening the saw up gives more fuel to the same amount of air.



Yeah, because air filters never get dirty eh?
Its a Stihl saw in the video- they are well known for dirty air boxes.


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## rogue60 (Nov 3, 2022)

What wrong with a hotter tune? most run a blubbering ring sticking carbon producing cold tune thinking it's good lol


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## rogue60 (Nov 3, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> OK, so when I thought that through it didn't add up to me. When you richen the mix that puts even more oil into the combustion chamber, no matter what the oil ratio is. I still think more oil = more heat no matter how you tune it because oil burns hotter than gas. I will try and locate the other video I watched about this last year.
> thanks for the response. I hope more people will "tune in" to this thread!


Well this is good then if oil burns hotter than fuel that’s a good thing I want a nice hot complete combustion.


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## grizz55chev (Nov 3, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Well this is good then if oil burns hotter than fuel that’s a good thing I want a nice hot complete combustion.


Fuggin oil threads suck!


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## cookies (Nov 3, 2022)

I run 40-1 or 32-1 however it gets poured, adjust carb as needed before starting to cut due to temperature changes. More oil ='s better sealing capability of the rings raising compression, not necessarily a larger volume of oil retained in the bottom end but the oil retained is exchanged for new oil from the fuel supply more rapidly. Saws use fuel and the fan for cooling, oil ratio has such a tiny impact on temperature it does not even matter compared to lube, sealing and cleaning capabilities.


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## rogue60 (Nov 3, 2022)

grizz55chev said:


> Fuggin oil threads suck!View attachment 1029590


Join in and learn something for a change..dropping ya bottom lip on the floor because you don't like something ya do know this isn't the what are the best hugs for hurt feelings thread right??


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## grizz55chev (Nov 3, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Join in and learn something for a change..dropping ya bottom lip on the floor because you don't like something ya do know this isn't the what are the best hugs for hurt feelings thread right??


I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about chainsaws and oil.


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## rogue60 (Nov 3, 2022)

grizz55chev said:


> I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about chainsaws and oil. View attachment 1029592


That's amazing.


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## tfp (Nov 3, 2022)

We should cover what brand of oil needs to be used just so we're all on the same page


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## grizz55chev (Nov 3, 2022)

tfp said:


> We should cover what brand of oil needs to be used just so we're all on the same page


Lol, good luck with that!


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## camel2019 (Nov 3, 2022)

I run 32 to 1 with all my equipment and tune it for my mix so far seems to be working well and I have the piece of mind that my old saws are getting oil as well as my new equipment.

And as far as oils go stay away from Stihl and outboard oils and you will be fine.


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## benz66 (Nov 3, 2022)

Ug! Another oil thread! But since it is going.... I'll ask my poulan question. I inherited a Poulan 305 Pro and 220 Pro. They are both about 20 yrs old. The 305 says right on the saw to run 16:1! I didn't think anything but a 1960s or earlier outboard, or the even older McCoullghs ran 16:1. Is 16:1 really the right mix, or do most folks use a 32:1 or other ratio with these saws?


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## MacAttack (Nov 3, 2022)

benz66 said:


> Ug! Another oil thread! But since it is going.... I'll ask my poulan question. I inherited a Poulan 305 Pro and 220 Pro. They are both about 20 yrs old. The 305 says right on the saw to run 16:1! I didn't think anything but a 1960s or earlier outboard, or the even older McCoullghs ran 16:1. Is 16:1 really the right mix, or do most folks use a 32:1 or other ratio with these saws?


16:1 was used when those old saws (like my PM270) ran on straight 30 or 40 weight motor oil mix (and somehow didn't immediately seize and burst into flames).
I run all my vintage saws 40:1 with Echo Power Blend and they love it.
Do not mix 16:1 with modern oil, you'll just kill mosquitoes.


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## camel2019 (Nov 4, 2022)

benz66 said:


> Ug! Another oil thread! But since it is going.... I'll ask my poulan question. I inherited a Poulan 305 Pro and 220 Pro. They are both about 20 yrs old. The 305 says right on the saw to run 16:1! I didn't think anything but a 1960s or earlier outboard, or the even older McCoullghs ran 16:1. Is 16:1 really the right mix, or do most folks use a 32:1 or other ratio with these saws?


16 to 1 is a mix for non detergent 30 weight oil or really old simple 2 stroke oils(that were basically 30 weight). I’d run it at 32 to 1 with a modern 2 stroke oil and tune it for the mix.


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## J D (Nov 4, 2022)

grizz55chev said:


> I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about chainsaws and oil.


Alzheimers?


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## Dennisthemenace (Nov 4, 2022)

J D said:


> Adding more oil displaces a small amount of fuel in the air:fuel mix... less fuel means slightly leaner = slightly hotter & higher rpms. Small changes like oil brand (yes a different brand/type of oil can make a difference too) or slightly heavier mix ratio aren't usually significant. Problems occur when a saw is tuned on the lean side already & a change pushes it over the cusp of meltdown.
> *My recommendation is to tune for the conditions & the mix you are running.*
> When choosing a mix, bear in mind that a lack of oil kills thousands of times more motors than carbon build up, & while oil has come a very long way, it has become leaner over time primarily for environmental reasons over equipment lifespan.
> Dammit... here we go....


Ahh, a nice little oil thread, you bewdy


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## Hermio (Nov 4, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> I recently had a conversation about mixing ratios for 2 stroke chainsaws and I would like to hear more opinions about it.
> I have watched 2 you tube videos that confirm what I have always thought, that more oil causes more heat because it burns hotter than gas.
> Here is a link to one of the videos I watched on this subject (by Dave's small engine channel) and I would like to hear what our experts have to say in this forum about this video.
> It is a simple and effective method to prove my point that heat levels increase when more oil is used.
> ...



My first chainsaw used a 16:1 ratio, and the exhaust fumes were awful. Oil technology has improved to the point where 50:1 is fairly typical today, and some oil brands claim 100:1 is doable. The key is to have enough oil to create an oil film on all the parts. More oil than that just blows out the exhaust; it does not improve lubrication. For me, I stick with a good synthetic oil and a 50:1. 100:1 may work with some oils, but I have no way of testing for oil; film thickness, so I am willing to waste a small amount of oil rather than risk my saw. But 50:1 has been in general use for at least 20 years and the saws have run just fine.


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## grizz55chev (Nov 4, 2022)

J D said:


> Alzheimers?


Not yet, I keep my self busy repairing antique machines of all kinds my shop is full of anything from generators to boat motors. My 34 Elto Pal 1.1 hp.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 4, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> If he’s not turning the saw for each mix, more oil = less fuel = running lean which would make it run hotter.


That’s not true, oil ratio has no noticable affect on the engine running lean or rich. Oil is a fuel.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 4, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> That’s not true, oil ratio has no noticable affect on the engine running lean or rich. Oil is a fuel.



This isn't a hard and fast rule, I've had it change the tune on me. We've been over this before.

Know how to test the tune of your equipment, and tune for what you're running, whatever that may be.


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## sawmill sam (Nov 4, 2022)

cookies said:


> I run 40-1 or 32-1 however it gets poured, adjust carb as needed before starting to cut due to temperature changes. More oil ='s better sealing capability of the rings raising compression, not necessarily a larger volume of oil retained in the bottom end but the oil retained is exchanged for new oil from the fuel supply more rapidly. Saws use fuel and the fan for cooling, oil ratio has such a tiny impact on temperature it does not even matter compared to lube, sealing and cleaning capabilities.


"oil ratio has such a tiny impact on temperature it does not even matter compared to lube, sealing and cleaning capabilities."

Your sentence above clarified best what I was wondering about most when I posted the thread.
I thank you for your insight


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## huskihl (Nov 4, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> That’s not true, oil ratio has no noticable affect on the engine running lean or rich. Oil is a fuel.


It definitely can make a noticeable difference.


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## sean donato (Nov 4, 2022)

Hermio said:


> My first chainsaw used a 16:1 ratio, and the exhaust fumes were awful. Oil technology has improved to the point where 50:1 is fairly typical today, and some oil brands claim 100:1 is doable. The key is to have enough oil to create an oil film on all the parts. More oil than that just blows out the exhaust; it does not improve lubrication. For me, I stick with a good synthetic oil and a 50:1. 100:1 may work with some oils, but I have no way of testing for oil; film thickness, so I am willing to waste a small amount of oil rather than risk my saw. But 50:1 has been in general use for at least 20 years and the saws have run just fine.


Can't remember if it was yamaha or which bike manufacturer tasted oil ratios to power levels, the more oil they added the more power the bike made. Can't remember where the cut off was where they started loosing power and sending splooge everywhere out the pipe but it was a pretty heavy ratio. 
We've been over this too, but I guess I'll give the short version of a pass through lube system and predominantly what dictates mix ratio. Rpm and load. Higher rpm, the lube passes through the engine faster more oil is needed. High continous loads need more lube oil as well. Even moderately ported saws arnt considered high performance, rpm, or high load engines. Really they are pretty low performance compared to their non emmission counterparts so moderate oil ratios are typically recommended.


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## sawmill sam (Nov 4, 2022)

82F100SWB said:


> More oil can = more heat. But not because of less gas in the mix.
> This is how I see it, with a heavy heating background (primary oil heat) as well as a heavy snowmobile background, where serious drag racers measure BTU value and adjust clutching and jetting accordingly.
> Mix oil is a higher BTU/gallon than gasoline, so having more of it in your mixture is going to mean your mixture has more potential energy.
> This is always going to mean that for the same volume of mixture consumed, there is more potential heat in said mixture.
> ...



"Mix oil is a higher BTU/gallon than gasoline, so having more of it in your mixture is going to mean your mixture has more potential energy.
This is always going to mean that for the same volume of mixture consumed, there is more potential heat in said mixture."

I took this quote from another thread. So, on one hand, my thinking about oil=heat was correct but I was incorrect in thinking that it noticably affected running temperature if you adjust the carb to compensate for the leaner condition . Thanks to all for your input and I hope everyone's winter will be mild!
ps. feel free to agree or disagree with my conclusion!!


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## Lightning Performance (Nov 4, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It definitely can make a noticeable difference.


Have you been affected? We did actually meet,


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 4, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Can't remember if it was yamaha or which bike manufacturer tasted oil ratios to power levels, the more oil they added the more power the bike made. Can't remember where the cut off was where they started loosing power and sending splooge everywhere out the pipe but it was a pretty heavy ratio.



I remember it being 25:1.


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## sean donato (Nov 4, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I remember it being 25:1.


Sounds about right, it was pretty long ago they did it. My mind is like a sieve these days...


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## Lightning Performance (Nov 4, 2022)

ballisticdoughnut said:


> Absolutely zero point running 25:1 with a good quality synthetic mix oil. 32:1 is the heaviest I would go and only for a milling application. 40:1 is what I prefer for general use.


Depends on the weather I'd say.
Humidity and ambient temps matter.
32-1 burns in my big saws on the mills in weather that is dry and above 80*F
32-1 pours out the exhaust around 50* with high humidity.
32-1 ain't worth a spit in the winter here because it won't burn.
I've run 55-1 in weather below 25* with zero adverse affects, same oil.
Same goes for the boat outboard motors. They are very temp sensitive compared to air cooled tools.
Tuning fat on the mill is a GIANT waste of power, fuel and oil, period imho.



grizz55chev said:


> Fuggin oil threads suck!View attachment 1029590


Yet here you are, coincidence, not.



MacAttack said:


> 16:1 was used when those old saws (like my PM270) ran on straight 30 or 40 weight motor oil mix (and somehow didn't immediately seize and burst into flames).
> I run all my vintage saws 40:1 with Echo Power Blend and they love it.
> Do not mix 16:1 with modern oil, you'll just kill mosquitoes.


But it tastes so good 

When you actually start to spec the motor before the build, after break in and then again a good ways into your testing like maybe 2 or 300 hundred tanks later on the same oil mixed at a specific ratio on the same fuel, and that ain't easy, then you'll see a pattern of wear or not most don't.

25-1 certainly makes more power but you will taste it with a quality full synthetic brew.

One point to note that no one covers.
Detergents make or break an oil.
Thinner is better for mixed fuel. They did head in this direction for no reason. It's self explanatory if you understand fluid flow dynamics passing an orifice.
Extra oil not burned of the proper type will clean stuff you haven't even thought of yet.

Now remember I'm just some dumb piney over here who knows nothing. You'll want to ask an eggspert  Plenty of them here and there with zero laboratory time in controlled tests so they really know what's up 

Nuff said.


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## huskihl (Nov 4, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> "Mix oil is a higher BTU/gallon than gasoline, so having more of it in your mixture is going to mean your mixture has more potential energy.
> This is always going to mean that for the same volume of mixture consumed, there is more potential heat in said mixture."
> 
> I took this quote from another thread. So, on one hand, my thinking about oil=heat was correct but I was incorrect in thinking that it noticebly affected running temperature. Thanks to all for your input and I hope everyone's winter will be mild!
> ps. feel free to agree or disagree with my conclusion!!


The nice thing about adjustable jets….as soon as that added heat starts to raise/eliminate the 4 stroking sound out of the wood, a quick adjustment of the H jet brings it back down to where it was before


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## sawmill sam (Nov 4, 2022)

I swear I will never bring up this subject again!


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## Lightning Performance (Nov 4, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> "Mix oil is a higher BTU/gallon than gasoline, so having more of it in your mixture is going to mean your mixture has more potential energy.
> This is always going to mean that for the same volume of mixture consumed, there is more potential heat in said mixture."
> 
> I took this quote from another thread. So, on one hand, my thinking about oil=heat was correct but I was incorrect in thinking that it noticebly affected running temperature. Thanks to all for your input and I hope everyone's winter will be mild!
> ps. feel free to agree or disagree with my conclusion!!


All depends on the surface vaporization point and the flash point of said oil. Plus ten other things going on inside your combustion chamber during the initial ignition point and it's time.
Plus fuel eddies and their location within the combustion chamber. You can create or nullify detonation with varying ratios or oil.
Go read a spec sheet and draw your own conclusions.


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## Lightning Performance (Nov 4, 2022)

huskihl said:


> The nice thing about adjustable jets….as soon as that added heat starts to raise/eliminate the 4 stroking sound out of the wood, a quick adjustment of the H jet brings it back down to where it was before


....until you mill and that goes lean in about a minute.

Most miss that point Kevin so I thought it best to include that bit in your spot on post.

Fourteen minutes is a long time to run WOT. The saw is blubbering fat after it cools and the RPM swing can be as great as 2K from cool snowy mornings till the third tank goes in during "hot lapping" back to back runs on my mill.

This IS good stuff for others to learn.

Ymmv


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## huskihl (Nov 4, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> ....until you mill and that goes lean in about a minute.


And then you can richen it up until it quits doing it


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## sawmill sam (Nov 4, 2022)

huskihl said:


> The nice thing about adjustable jets….as soon as that added heat starts to raise/eliminate the 4 stroking sound out of the wood, a quick adjustment of the H jet brings it back down to where it was before


I edited the end of my last statement to read..."if you adjust the carb to compensate for the leaner condition"


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## grizz55chev (Nov 4, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> Yet here you are, coincidence, not


Just spreading my charm, like the rest of the folks here on these endless oil threads. Run what you like, ain't no one gonna change no ones mind . Please do try though, if you're inclined.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 4, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It definitely can make a noticeable difference.


I politely disagree.


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## sawmill sam (Nov 4, 2022)

I have another question about oil...if I put it in my oatmeal will I run faster and work harder?


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## grizz55chev (Nov 4, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> I have another question about oil...if I put it in my oatmeal will I run faster and work harder?


Try it and get back to us, might improve the taste!


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 4, 2022)

Who here ran MX2T? It had no dye in it. More than once, I wasn't sure if I'd dosed my two stroke gas can with oil, or not. Preferring to run 16:1 than 128:0, I added another dose, and could only tell I was running 16:1 afterwards by the smell.

Ran fine, no smoke, no carbon build up.

With modern synthetics, you can run VERY rich ratios without any problems.


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## Tomos770 (Nov 4, 2022)

Thats why I have special red coloured can for my 2stroke mix.....all other cans for "regural" gasoline are black....


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## skeet88 (Nov 4, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> I have another question about oil...if I put it in my oatmeal will I run faster and work harder?


Might run faster to the toilet!


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## skeet88 (Nov 4, 2022)

I like oil threads! Don’t run Lucas neither,I learned that from the last oil thread. Y’all Be Good!


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## bwalker (Nov 4, 2022)

ballisticdoughnut said:


> Absolutely zero point running 25:1 with a good quality synthetic mix oil. 32:1 is the heaviest I would go and only for a milling application. 40:1 is what I prefer for general use.


In general I agree. However, if you are milling or cutting big wood with a small saw there is nothing wrong with running something like 20:1.


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## bwalker (Nov 4, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> Depends on the weather I'd say.
> Humidity and ambient temps matter.
> 32-1 burns in my big saws on the mills in weather that is dry and above 80*F
> 32-1 pours out the exhaust around 50* with high humidity.
> ...


I've. Ever had an issue with 32:1 pouring oil out the exhaust at 32:1 or any other ratio. I might have cut a but in cold temps too...


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## bwalker (Nov 4, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> All depends on the surface vaporization point and the flash point of said oil. Plus ten other things going on inside your combustion chamber during the initial ignition point and it's time.
> Plus fuel eddies and their location within the combustion chamber. You can create or nullify detonation with varying ratios or oil.
> Go read a spec sheet and draw your own conclusions.


Flash point has zero to do with anything going inside your engine. End point does, but that value isn't normally provided.


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## bwalker (Nov 4, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I politely disagree.



Kevin is right and if you don't agree you shouldn't be making videos on youtube...


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 4, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Kevin is right and if you don't agree you shouldn't be making videos on youtube...



But isnt that the whole idea of youtube?


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## MacAttack (Nov 4, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I politely disagree.



Should have gone to 20:1 and then 16:1 

When I was a kid the kids with 2 stroke dirtbikes often mixed them 20:1, just dumped a quart of oil into your 5 gallon can and send it.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> But isnt that the whole idea of youtube?


If I was going to post content on YouTube I would be sure I knew what the hell I was talking about before I did.


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## skeet88 (Nov 5, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> But isnt that the whole idea of youtube?


I think I detect a little sarcasm!


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## grizz55chev (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If I was going to post content on YouTube I would be sure I knew what the hell I was talking about before I did.


You must be new to the internet.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If I was going to post content on YouTube I would be sure I knew what the hell I was talking about before I did.


Well in this case it’s not an opinion as the video speaks for Itself. I’m not interested in having an online pissing match or throwing insults around, instead what I’d appreciate is the opportunity to learn.

If you or others are willing to share your advice, what way would you suggest I do the test differently to have a different outcome and prove myself / first video wrong? I’ll happily upload it and admit so if it’s the case.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If I was going to post content on YouTube I would be sure I knew what the hell I was talking about before I did.



Thats the thing, it is free for all- all you need is a recording device and you can put up what you want- facts are not mandatory nor policed.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Well in this case it’s not an opinion as the video speaks for Itself. I’m not interested in having an online pissing match or throwing insults around, instead what I’d appreciate is the opportunity to learn.
> 
> If you or others are willing to share your advice, what way would you suggest I do the test differently to have a different outcome and prove myself / first video wrong? I’ll happily upload it and admit so if it’s the case.


You don't realise what's causing what you are seeing. As a result your conclusions are off.
What I suggest you do is start thinking about the variables.
I've said it before, and I will say it again. The vast majority of these YouTube tests are complete garbage.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You don't realise what's causing what you are seeing. As a result your conclusions are off.
> What I suggest you do is start thing about the variables.
> I've said it before, snd I will saybit again. The vast majority ofbthese YouTube tests are co plate garbage.


Thanks for the reply. In my case, the only variable was the oil mix ratio changing.
The load on the engine was the same, the unleaded petrol the same, air temperature the same, run times the same, the time of day was even the same within a few minutes.

Rpm swing from 50:1 to 32:1 was 80 rpm.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Thanks for the reply. In my case, the only variable was the oil mix ratio changing.
> The load on the engine was the same, the unleaded petrol the same, air temperature the same, run times the same, the time of day was even the same within a few minutes.
> 
> Rpm swing from 50:1 to 32:1 was 80 rpm.


What about the temperature of the engine? What about the type of oils used(some oils inhibit combustion)? What about the accuracy of the tach?
Then there is the fact your trying to draw conclusions from a sample of 1 with a result variability of 80rpm, which is less than peanuts.
There are others as well...
Regardless an honest to god sae test was done on this subject and the conclusions where the opposite of yours.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Who here ran MX2T? It had no dye in it. More than once, I wasn't sure if I'd dosed my two stroke gas can with oil, or not. Preferring to run 16:1 than 128:0, I added another dose, and could only tell I was running 16:1 afterwards by the smell.
> 
> Ran fine, no smoke, no carbon build up.
> 
> With modern synthetics, you can run VERY rich ratios without any problems.


I used it for years and actually was the guy who mentioned it to this site around 20 years ago.
And yes you are absolutely right a _*good*_ modern oil like Mx2t will burn clean at ratios like 16:1.
I curse Mobil for discontinuing it.


----------



## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What about the temperature of the engine? What about the type of oils used(some oils inhibit combustion)? What about the accuracy of the tach?
> Then there is the fact your trying to draw conclusions from a sample of 1 with a result variability of 80rpm, which is less than peanuts.
> There are others as well...
> Regardless an honest to god sae test was done on this subject and the conclusions where the opposite of yours.


The tach I used is one of, if not the most accurate digital tachs on the market, oil was Amsoil Sabee which people suggest is thicker than many which should show more affect. The engines were ran up to full operating temps before reading rpms. Have you got a link to that video you mention?


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## NSEric (Nov 5, 2022)

Im a former dirt bike guy who had 2 strokes.
If you run 32-1 in them the bottom end bearings last forever, if you run 50 or 60-1 your bearings go after 200 or so hours. It takes a long time for this to show up. Engine builders would do tear down and inspections to see how much oil was left in the crank case, with 50-1 the crank was pretty dry, with 32-1 it was oily. 
I run 32-1 in my china saws to keep the bearings lubed up, the piston doesnt care what ratio you run.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> The tach I used is one of, if not the most accurate digital tachs on the market, oil was Amsoil Sabee which people suggest is thicker than many which should show more affect. The engines were ran up to full operating temps before reading rpms. Have you got a link to that video you mention?


Ok, so what's the margin of error?
And viscosity of the oil doesn't matter. It's about volume of oil in the mix and how much gasoline it displaces.
Saber is formulated to run at 100:1. It makes sense that at richer ratios it may inhibit combustion.
You ran the test back to back so by the time you ran the second test the motor would have been warmer internally. This can lead to less charge density and less power. And trust me I am just scratching the surface on the variable involved. Not to mention a sample of one has zero statistical validity.
I never mentioned a video.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

NSEric said:


> Im a former dirt bike guy who had 2 strokes.
> If you run 32-1 in them the bottom end bearings last forever, if you run 50 or 60-1 your bearings go after 200 or so hours. It takes a long time for this to show up. Engine builders would do tear down and inspections to see how much oil was left in the crank case, with 50-1 the crank was pretty dry, with 32-1 it was oily.
> I run 32-1 in my china saws to keep the bearings lubed up, the piston doesnt care what ratio you run.


Yep.. and when bottom end bearings go in a bike you often don't catch it before the whole motor tears itself up.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 5, 2022)

You could always do something bizarre like follow the owner's manual.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> You could always do something bizarre like follow the owner's manual.


You could also lunch bottom end bearings as a result.


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## MacAttack (Nov 5, 2022)

And every owner's manual I've seen from at least the last 30 years has stated to use a ratio of 40:1 at most. My 1996 KTM 300 EXC dirtbike manual says either 50 or 60:1, but it's less than 40:1.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You could also lunch bottom end bearings as a result.


 Yeah, and I'm sure the mix ratio or type of oil was the reason why. Yeah, I believe that.


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## grizz55chev (Nov 5, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Yeah, and I'm sure the mix ratio or type of oil was the reason why. Yeah, I believe that.


I think he meant launch, not lunch, but I could be wrong. Kinda makes a difference.


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## J D (Nov 5, 2022)

Some time back I was flushing out the bottom end of a 385 & realised that when I transitioned between different mixes I could feel the difference in how freely the crank spun. This lead to a bit of experimentation & what stood out to me was how much of a difference I could feel rotating the crank with a case full of 32:1 vs 50:1.
In heind sight I should have tried it with different oils too.

Tom, as far as real world testing goes, I would set up a motor running at constant load. Once warm set rpm as desired for the 50:1 mix. Then over a period of time (while the motor runs continuously) raise the oil mix ratio up to around 20:1. Then over the same period of time reduce the mix back to 50:1.
Monitor cylinder temperature & rpm throughout.
While you won't be measuring a direct correlation between a specific mix ratio & rpm (as the mix will be varying) you should see a meaningful trend.
Repeat as many times as possible using as many different oils as possible


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> And every owner's manual I've seen from at least the last 30 years has stated to use a ratio of 40:1 at most. My 1996 KTM 300 EXC dirtbike manual says either 50 or 60:1, but it's less than 40:1.


The Japanese bikes were all 32:1 except for Yamaha which speced 30:1.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

J D said:


> Some time back I was flushing out the bottom end of a 385 & realised that when I transitioned between different mixes I could feel the difference in how freely the crank spun. This lead to a bit of experimentation & what stood out to me was how much of a difference I could feel rotating the crank with a case full of 32:1 vs 50:1.
> In heind sight I should have tried it with different oils too.
> 
> Tom, as far as real world testing goes, I would set up a motor running at constant load. Once warm set rpm as desired for the 50:1 mix. Then over a period of time (while the motor runs continuously) raise the oil mix ratio up to around 20:1. Then over the same period of time reduce the mix back to 50:1.
> ...


And what would this tell you?
Sounds like a waste of fuel and time to me.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Yeah, and I'm sure the mix ratio or type of oil was the reason why. Yeah, I believe that.


Miraculously failures stop once you up the oil..
And why wouldn't they given a modern strato saw has the same or similar bearings as the older saws, but uses drastically less oil due to fuel efficiency.
Even Husky 3xx series saws crank bearings lasted longer when ran at 32:1. In a logging setting this is pretty apparent.


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## MacAttack (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The Japanese bikes were all 32:1 except for Yamaha which speed 30:1.


Which decade are we talking about?

60's / 70's or even 80's that wouldn't surprise me at all.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Which decade are we talking about?
> 
> 60's / 70's or even 80's that wouldn't surprise me at all.


90's to present.
Might also note that KTM's since forever have came from the factory so damn rich they are probably burning the equivalent of well below 32:1. The guys that leave them like this have a long lasting motor that requires frequent power valve cleanings and silencer repacks.. The guys that tune them properly for certain have decreased big end and crank bearing life.
One mod that guys are doing to to new KTM TPI motors is to bump the oil pump up as they aren't lasting either.


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## MacAttack (Nov 5, 2022)

When I got my KTM it already had a full FMF exhaust and had been re-jetted, it ran kinda lousy. I re-re-jetted it with a larger main jet and smaller pilot and it woke up. I also decided to mix it 32:1 with full synth because that was what I used in my Banshee. 

For the heck of it I looked up a Banshee manual and I was surprised, 24:1 with Yamaha oil or 20:1 with other brands, of course when I had my Banshee I never looked at the manual.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> When I got my KTM it already had a full FMF exhaust and had been re-jetted, it ran kinda lousy. I re-re-jetted it with a larger main jet and smaller pilot and it woke up. I also decided to mix it 32:1 with full synth because that was what I used in my Banshee.
> 
> For the heck of it I looked up a Banshee manual and I was surprised, 24:1 with Yamaha oil or 20:1 with other brands, of course when I had my Banshee I never looked at the manual.


If your KTM has a Mikuni carb the best thing you can do is chuck it in the trash and run a Keihin PWK. JD sells prejetted ones that are close. The PWK is very easy to tune compared to the Mikuni.
I believe in latter years Yamaha speced 30:1 for the banshee as well.


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## MacAttack (Nov 5, 2022)

I think it has a Mikuni but would need to check, I've never had trouble with Mikunis, the tune is actually good now. If it wasn't just a heavy trail-banger enduro bike I'd maybe be more picky about tuning it haha.
The bigger issues are the fork seals puking oil and the front brakes need fixing, brake lever goes right to the handlebar. I think the master cylinder needs rebuilt.
I need to find a good source of parts, which for those KTMs is not as easy.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> I think it has a Mikuni but would need to check, I've never had trouble with Mikunis, the tune is actually good now. If it wasn't just a heavy trail-banger enduro bike I'd maybe be more picky about tuning it haha.
> The bigger issues are the fork seals puking oil and the front brakes need fixing, brake lever goes right to the handlebar. I think the master cylinder needs rebuilt.
> I need to find a good source of parts, which for those KTMs is not as easy.


Is this an older bike with Marzocchi forks?


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## MacAttack (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Is this an older bike with Marzocchi forks?


Yep. And an Ohlins in the rear, Brembo brakes.

I recall having a tough time finding a rebuild kit for the forks.


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## J D (Nov 5, 2022)

bwalker said:


> And what would this tell you?
> Sounds like a waste of fuel and time to me.





J D said:


> Some time back I was flushing out the bottom end of a 385 & realised that when I transitioned between different mixes I could feel the difference in how freely the crank spun. This lead to a bit of experimentation & what stood out to me was how much of a difference I could feel rotating the crank with a case full of 32:1 vs 50:1.
> In heind sight I should have tried it with different oils too.


This ^ doesn't tell me anything so far as real world running goes as chainsaws don't tend to run with a crankcase full of fuel.
I did find it interesting tho so thought I would share


J D said:


> Tom, as far as real world testing goes, I would set up a motor running at constant load. Once warm set rpm as desired for the 50:1 mix. Then over a period of time (while the motor runs continuously) raise the oil mix ratio up to around 20:1. Then over the same period of time reduce the mix back to 50:1.
> Monitor cylinder temperature & rpm throughout.
> While you won't be measuring a direct correlation between a specific mix ratio & rpm (as the mix will be varying) you should see a meaningful trend.
> Repeat as many times as possible using as many different oils as possible


This ^ (in my humble opinion) is a better way to demonstrate what Tom was trying to evaluate & show in his video rather than just saying "this is how it is" or "this (unreferenced) study showed"....
It would be pretty simple & relatively inexpensive to do if you already had a selection of oil on hand (although time consuming).
If you could suggest a better/ more effective way to demonstrate what he was trying to show please do... you may even get to see it realised if someone decides it's worthwhile following through with


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## rogue60 (Nov 5, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> You could always do something bizarre like follow the owner's manual.


Manuals are good for when you run out of toilet paper in the bush way better than sticks and leaves lol


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

J D said:


> This ^ doesn't tell me anything so far as real world running goes as chainsaws don't tend to run with a crankcase full of fuel.
> I did find it interesting tho so thought I would share
> 
> This ^ (in my humble opinion) is a better way to demonstrate what Tom was trying to evaluate & show in his video rather than just saying "this is how it is" or "this (unreferenced) study showed"....
> ...


I don't see how any of that crap is relevant to real world chainsaw use.
The original test has a plethora of issues and isn't valid.
Any tuner worth his salt knows that anytime you change the amount of fuel flowing through a carb your air to fuel ratio changes. This is pretty elementary and can't be argued.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Yep. And an Ohlins in the rear, Brembo brakes.
> 
> I recall having a tough time finding a rebuild kit for the forks.


Those forks are garbage. I had a 200MXC with them.


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## Ethobling (Nov 5, 2022)

Man, for someone who is trying to figure out what mix ratio/tune to use on my saws, I'm still super confused.

I'm pretty set on "X Brand" of FD rated oil (mainly going to run Echo Red Armor, I think). I think I'll run it 45:1 in my standard day-to-day working. But milling? 40:1? 32:1? Just run 50:1 but tune it rich?

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Man, for someone who is trying to figure out what mix ratio/tune to use on my saws, I'm still super confused.
> 
> I'm pretty set on "X Brand" of FD rated oil (mainly going to run Echo Red Armor, I think). I think I'll run it 45:1 in my standard day-to-day working. But milling? 40:1? 32:1? Just run 50:1 but tune it rich?
> 
> AHHHHHHHHHH!!!


I would run it at 40 or 50:1 for normal use and 32:1 and tuned abit rich for milling.


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## J D (Nov 6, 2022)

I run 40:1 day to day, 32:1 + a few hundred rpm fat for milling


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 6, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Miraculously failures stop once you up the oil..
> And why wouldn't they given a modern strato saw has the same or similar bearings as the older saws, but uses drastically less oil due to fuel efficiency.
> Even Husky 3xx series saws crank bearings lasted longer when ran at 32:1. In a logging setting this is pretty apparent.




If you have enough data comparing the two to get that result then I believe you. Most of the bearing failures that I see is the cage comes apart and the bearings bunch up and the flywheel bangs the ignition coil or whatever.

I honestly don't know whether that has anything to do with oil or not.

But, you know the drill. Unless you have a group of the same saws running one mix and the same number running another mix for the same amount of time It's hard to prove anything even though you might have a strong opinion about it.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> If you have enough data comparing the two to get that result then I believe you. Most of the bearing failures that I see is the cage comes apart and the bearings bunch up and the flywheel bangs the ignition coil or whatever.
> 
> I honestly don't know whether that has anything to do with oil or not.
> 
> But, you know the drill. Unless you have a group of the same saws running one mix and the same number running another mix for the same amount of time It's hard to prove anything even though you might have a strong opinion about it.


Bearings fail from injesting dirt and from lack of lube.
Some of the strato saws have 20% or even greater fuel economy increase. That means they are using 20+% less oil. It's no stretch to connect those dots.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Bearings fail from injesting dirt and from lack of lube.
> Some of the strato saws have 20% or even greater fuel economy increase. That means they are using 20+% less oil. It's no stretch to connect those dots.


 More like they are blowing 20% less raw fuel out the exhaust.


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## camel2019 (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> More like they are blowing 20% less raw fuel out the exhaust.


If you tune your equipment it shouldn’t be blowing any fuel mix out of the exhaust.


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## huskihl (Nov 7, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> If you tune your equipment it shouldn’t be blowing any fuel mix out of the exhaust.


Traditional two strokes always have. That’s the idea behind strato technology is to purge the exhaust with plain air rather than mixed fuel. 


ZeroJunk said:


> More like they are blowing 20% less raw fuel out the exhaust.


The 20-30% less comes from the strato air ports. The point being, if a motor is 30% more efficient due to the strato ports, that same fresh air that purges out the exhaust never went through the bottom end and lubricated the bearings


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## Piotr Pakuła (Nov 7, 2022)

it blows into the chimney ;-) because most of the carburetor is rich and such a mixture will not burn 100%


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## Piotr Pakuła (Nov 7, 2022)

first there were limited screws in the gasifier and fuel injection just so as not to blow into the chimney ;-)


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> More like they are blowing 20% less raw fuel out the exhaust.


The oil drops out of suspension when it enters the crankcase. So, less fuel=less oil and that's regardless of what goes out the exhaust


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> If you tune your equipment it shouldn’t be blowing any fuel mix out of the exhaust.


A traditional two stroke always blows some fuel out the exhaust.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Traditional two strokes always have. That’s the idea behind strato technology is to purge the exhaust with plain air rather than mixed fuel.
> 
> The 20-30% less comes from the strato air ports. The point being, if a motor is 30% more efficient due to the strato ports, that same fresh air that purges out the exhaust never went through the bottom end and lubricated the bearings


That makes sense. Still, to prove if 50 to1, 40 to 1, 32 to 1, or whatever makes a difference you have to test it against another test group. Otherwise, you are just believing something . 
Stihl says you can run the HP Ultra 70 to 1 with no problems. And, you can bet they have tested it.
Hell, Amsoil says 100 to 1 .

In the meantime I have a Lawn Boy 2 stroke that says 32 to 1 right on the cap and I have been running it 50 to 1 for 30 years. I have had to replace the gear box, the rear wheels several times, front wheels several times. The deck is welded up like Frankenstein's face. And, it just keeps going.

I take all of the clutter with a lot of salt.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> That makes sense. Still, to prove if 50 to1, 40 to 1, 32 to 1, or whatever makes a difference you have to test it against another test group. Otherwise, you are just believing something .
> Stihl says you can run the HP Ultra 70 to 1 with no problems. And, you can bet they have tested it.
> Hell, Amsoil says 100 to 1 .
> 
> ...


Your litmus test for what an adequate amount of oil is that the motor didn't blow immediately. Almost any oil will run 100:1 or even more without blowing immediately. The long term effects of that are chronic though.
A lawnboy turns around 4000rpm. So it's not much of a test. With that said a LB duraforce won't last for 30 years even with 32:1 and the common failure route with those are the big end bearings which use a rube goldberg roller over shell design. Likewise a older lawnoy with bronze bushings instead of roller or ball bearings will not last long at 50:1.
I don't know why it's en vogue to try and run a 2 stroke motor which is marginally lubricated in the first place on the least amount of oil possible.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I don't know why it's en vogue to try and run a 2 stroke motor which is marginally lubricated in the first place on the least amount of oil possible.



I think it's a noisy minority that are trying to see how close they can get to running their engine without oil. Most people run more oil, even if it's "just adding an extra glug" for good measure.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Nov 7, 2022)

I don't like clouds of smoke so I don't mix more than 40: 1, then a lot of oil is leaking from the muffler


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I think it's a noisy minority that are trying to see how close they can get to running their engine without oil. Most people run more oil, even if it's "just adding an extra glug" for good measure.


 I run the Lawn Boy 50 to 1 because I didn't want to mix seperate for it. I have three of them and if I live long enough for this one to quit I'll start on another one.

I run 50 to 1 in the saws, blowers,trimmers, because that is what Stihl , whose dealer I work for, recommends. 

As opposed to whatever goof ball of the week or year on an internet forum recommends.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I run the Lawn Boy 50 to 1 because I didn't want to mix seperate for it. I have three of them and if I live long enough for this one to quit I'll start on another one.
> 
> I run 50 to 1 in the saws, blowers,trimmers, because that is what Stihl , whose dealer I work for, recommends.
> 
> As opposed to whatever goof ball of the week or year on an internet forum recommends.


Stihl also tells you to run Ultra, which is the worst oil sold by a saw OEM....


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Stihl also tells you to run Ultra, which is the worst oil sold by a saw OEM....


According to who ? Or, is it whom ?


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## Bubster (Nov 7, 2022)

I never read every post in this thread, but my thoughts were always more oil equals more carbon equals more heat. I know a guy that mixed Amsoil at 100:1 for his Stihl saws and claimed he never had a problem. Sounds mighty lean to me, but I guess if it works it works. I just always mix what the saw manufacturer calls for. I never had a saw fail due to scoring or broken rings ,except when I was young and ran an 028 for about 4 hours a day with a bad intake boot because I didn't know any better.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> According to who ? Or, is it whom ?


The evidence is out there, bud.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

Bubster said:


> I never read every post in this thread, but my thoughts were always more oil equals more carbon equals more heat. I know a guy that mixed Amsoil at 100:1 for his Stihl saws and claimed he never had a problem. Sounds mighty lean to me, but I guess if it works it works. I just always mix what the saw manufacturer calls for. I never had a saw fail due to scoring or broken rings ,except when I was young and ran an 028 for about 4 hours a day with a bad intake boot because I didn't know any better.


Except none of that crap is true. Here is a high hour 

32:1 piston from a strato motor.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The evidence is out there, bud.


 Well, let's see it . Bud.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except none of that crap is true. Here is a high hour View attachment 1030574
> View attachment 1030575
> 32:1 piston from a strato motor.




I'll take a photo of a piston tomorrow and tell you it is high hour, whatever that means. Duh.

BTW, what you hillbillys do, run over it ? Why is it out of the saw.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I run the Lawn Boy 50 to 1 because I didn't want to mix seperate for it. I have three of them and if I live long enough for this one to quit I'll start on another one.
> 
> I run 50 to 1 in the saws, blowers,trimmers, because that is what Stihl , whose dealer I work for, recommends.
> 
> As opposed to whatever goof ball of the week or year on an internet forum recommends.



I was thinking the people who run leaner than the factory recommends. One guy actually said he puts 100:1 in customer's equipment, which is the same as your mechanic changing the oil in your car and only putting two quarts back in, as far as I'm concerned.

I prefer more oil than 50:1, regardless of what the factory says, and have my reasons for doing so. Being one of the goofballs on the internet, I won't bother explaining them to you.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Well, let's see it . Bud.


I'm not your personal researcher..


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I'll take a photo of a piston tomorrow and tell you it is high hour, whatever that means. Duh.
> 
> BTW, what you hillbillys do, run over it ? Why is it out of the saw.


It didn't come out of a saw. It was out of a redmax blower and it still ran fine when it was pulled apart.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I'll take a photo of a piston tomorrow and tell you it is high hour, whatever that means. Duh.
> 
> BTW, what you hillbillys do, run over it ? Why is it out of the saw.


Someone from NC calling anyone a hillbilly is laughable btw...


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## grizz55chev (Nov 7, 2022)

Oil threads never disappoint. Huge !


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## Chevboy0167 (Nov 7, 2022)




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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Someone from NC calling anyone a hillbilly is laughable btw...


Sort of is isn't it.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

grizz55chev said:


> Oil threads never disappoint. Huge !


Yep, if you run 32 to 1 your saw will last 1000 years. At 50 to 1 the bearings will come out in less than a tank.
Having no proof of this is not a deterrent.


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## Ethobling (Nov 7, 2022)

Keep in mind hostility doesn't solve problems. We are talking about 2 stroke oil. No need to get personal.



P.S. Put in the best information you can and leave it there. The people who are unknowledgable will become clear to everyone, or at least most of everyone.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Keep in mind hostility doesn't solve problems. We are talking about 2 stroke oil. No need to get personal.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Put in the best information you can and leave it there. The people who are unknowledgable will become clear to everyone, or at least most of everyone.


Except that's not how it works. The least knowledgeable are the most argumentative unfortunately and the most firm in their convictions. This despite the fact they don't have a clue what's going on.


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## Ethobling (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except that's not how it works. The least knowledgeable are the most argumentative unfortunately and the most firm in their convictions. This despite the fact they don't have a clue what's going on.


Yes, but it's usually the most argumentative that I don't give as much weight to.

Idk, maybe I'm just special, but when I see someone "swearing by ____" with only 2nd hand stories, I don't give what their are saying much credit. I like more factual/technical information.


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## grizz55chev (Nov 7, 2022)

Been real guys!  glad it's all settled!


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## Pioneer (Nov 7, 2022)

A friend has been using outboard motor oil in his saw, he didn't know any better. I persuaded him to start using some proper 2t oil because of the issues with varnish buildup using tcw3.
He had some small empty oil containers set up to pour 40:1 and asked if it would cause problems with an oil marked as 50 :1. He didn't care if it used more oil, he just wanted the simplicity and repeatability. I answered it's not a problem and it's more insurance if you cut in hot weather. 
I suppose this would be the preferred mix if you're cutting commercially and you want the most life out of your saw, but most of us don't fall into this category, we have several saws and we rotate the use of them so they'll never get the amount of hours a single saw would in commercial use.

So use the mix and oil you feel comfortable with and what works for you. Most of us will never wear out a saw in our lifetime unless we have just one saw and used it for 20 years, and by then we're ready to move on to the next one.

I prefer oil that burns clean somewhere close to it's recommend ratio, and yes, almost all of it goes out the exhaust, at best a very small amount is left in the crankcase. There's an easy way to prove this to yourself. Cold start your saw, let it idle a minute then rev the throttle a few times and shut it down. Wait 10 minutes and do it again. Repeat this another three or four times. Now go and cut wood for real, your saw will be fogging mosquitoes the next 10 minutes as it burns off all the oil that has accumulated in your muffler. 

The best evidence is usually the type you've collected yourself; when in doubt, try it out.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except that's not how it works. The least knowledgeable are the most argumentative unfortunately and the most firm in their convictions. This despite the fact they don't have a clue what's going on.


Are you talking about Stihl or Husqvarna engineers ?


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## Piotr Pakuła (Nov 8, 2022)

the blower has a lighter life than a chainsaw ☺


----------



## J D (Nov 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except that's not how it works. The least knowledgeable are the most argumentative unfortunately and the most firm in their convictions. This despite the fact they don't have a clue what's going on.


While I agree with the majority of your previous posts, I will point out that you have come across as both argumentative & firm in your convictions while giving mostly "this is how it is" answers & offering very little further information or reference to help people differentiate those who might "have a clue" & make an educated decision for themselves.


----------



## Ethobling (Nov 8, 2022)

J D said:


> While I agree with the majority of your previous posts, I will point out that you have come across as both argumentative & firm in your convictions while giving mostly "this is how it is" answers & offering very little further information or reference to help people differentiate those who might "have a clue" & make an educated decision for themselves.


Agreed. To give him credit, though, he has talked a fair amount about the more technical information, if you go back a few pages and explore some other oil threads.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

J D said:


> While I agree with the majority of your previous posts, I will point out that you have come across as both argumentative & firm in your convictions while giving mostly "this is how it is" answers & offering very little further information or reference to help people differentiate those who might "have a clue" & make an educated decision for themselves.


This site has a search engine for a reason.


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## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Agreed. To give him credit, though, he has talked a fair amount about the more technical information, if you go back a few pages and explore some other oil threads.


Exactly...


----------



## camel2019 (Nov 8, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> I don't like clouds of smoke so I don't mix more than 40: 1, then a lot of oil is leaking from the muffler


No smoke when you tune your equipment to the mix.


----------



## camel2019 (Nov 8, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> According to who ? Or, is it whom ?


By the amount of carbon on my piston splooge out the muffler and wear on my piston on my 3 year old kombi tool I’d say it’s junk. It was mixed out of the little mini bottles from the 6 pack I bought when it was new doesn’t have many hours on it. The Stihl dealer also screwed me over not honouring the warranty and charging me $86 for a air filter spark plug and screen when it needed a carb kit. From now on I will just buy older Stihl equipment fix it myself and run it.


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## link (Nov 8, 2022)

2%, 50:1 is what is necessary by x2, so thats safe. I use 40:1, thats about 2,5%.
More sot in the cylinder top but excessive lubrication is how I want it, if you want perfect thats 2% (50:1).


----------



## ZeroJunk (Nov 8, 2022)

Yep. I can tell from this thread that the people who make this stuff don't know a damn thing about it.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Are you talking about Stihl or Husqvarna engineers ?


I'm talking about you... you didn't even know that in a 2 cycle oil is deposited in the crankcase as soon as it enters.


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## Ethobling (Nov 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Exactly...


While I greatly appreciate the information you have provided, you should still treat people with more respect. 

I know you get frustrated with people wanting easy answers or not citing information for their point of view, but try to understand we all start somewhere.

Again, I appreciate you being here and giving us some of the information you have.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> While I greatly appreciate the information you have provided, you should still treat people with more respect.
> 
> I know you get frustrated with people wanting easy answers or not citing information for their point of view, but try to understand we all start somewhere.
> 
> Again, I appreciate you being here and giving us some of the information you have.


Everyone on those board is woefully ignorant on certain topics. This is fine. What's not fine is when you are woefully ignorant, but still find it prudent to opine. People that do that should not only not be respected, but should be ostracized until they shut up. If not the board gets bogged down with so many falsehoods and stupidity that it becomes of no value to anyone.
Make sense?
And for the butt hurt. File a hurt feelers report.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> No smoke when you tune your equipment to the mix.


Exactly.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Yep. I can tell from this thread that the people who make this stuff don't know a damn thing about it.


And engineer designed the Tacoma Narrows bridge..


----------



## huskihl (Nov 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Everyone on those board is woefully ignorant on certain topics. This is fine. What's not fine is when you are woefully ignorant, but still find it prudent to opine. People that do that should not only not be respected, but should be ostracized until they shut up. If not the board gets bogged down with so many falsehoods and stupidity that it becomes of no value to anyone.
> Make sense?
> And for the butt hurt. File a hurt feelers report.


It also grows tiresome when we post pics of our findings multiple times and every time another newb comes along we have to go through it all again. They forget (or refuse to do the math) that their 30 year old 028 that still runs perfect on 50:1 only has 300 hours of cut time on it.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm talking about you... you didn't even know that in a 2 cycle oil is deposited in the crankcase as soon as it enters.



Curious how you arrived at that. I only worked on about 20 pieces of Stihl today. It is what I do you know.


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## link (Nov 8, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It also grows tiresome when we post pics of our findings multiple times and every time another newb comes along we have to go through it all again. They forget (or refuse to do the math) that their 30 year old 028 that still runs perfect on 50:1 only has 300 hours of cut time on it.


Id say its a privilege, if someone wants your comment again and again.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 8, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It also grows tiresome when we post pics of our findings multiple times and every time another newb comes along we have to go through it all again. They forget (or refuse to do the math) that their 30 year old 028 that still runs perfect on 50:1 only has 300 hours of cut time on it.



You think chainsaws and fuel mix newbies are bad? Try beekeeping and coming with 40 odd years of experience versus some first season beehaver with a thousand hours of youtube videos watched! 
Then you will learn about banging your head on brick walls!


----------



## huskihl (Nov 8, 2022)

link said:


> Id say its a privilege, if someone wants your comment again and again.


Most don’t want it. They just want to defend their own baseless opinion


----------



## huskihl (Nov 8, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> You think chainsaws and fuel mix newbies are bad? Try beekeeping and coming with 40 odd years of experience versus some first season beehaver with a thousand hours of youtube videos watched!
> Then you will learn about banging your head on brick walls!


That sounds terribly similar. No doubt


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It also grows tiresome when we post pics of our findings multiple times and every time another newb comes along we have to go through it all again. They forget (or refuse to do the math) that their 30 year old 028 that still runs perfect on 50:1 only has 300 hours of cut time on it.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 8, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Curious how you arrived at that. I only worked on about 20 pieces of Stihl today. It is what I do you know.


Your own words...
And sorry, I'm not impressed. Chainsaws are so simple that most guys can work on them.


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## camel2019 (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Curious how you arrived at that. I only worked on about 20 pieces of Stihl today. It is what I do you know.


Yay for you and I can rebuild the top end on most pro saws in about 20 min as long as the piston clips cooperate. You wouldn’t have to work on so much equipment if the company you support so much would design things better stop producing in China and find a better oil company to supply them.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Nov 9, 2022)

one oil fumes more and the other less


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Your own words...
> And sorry, I'm not impressed. Chainsaws are so simple that most guys can work on them.



You can quote something I said if you like. I simply said that if scavaging 20% more fresh air was 20 % less oil in the crankcase made sense. Duh.

In the meantime. You have a strong emotional belief that some bearing failures you have seen would not have happened with more oil in the mix.

The only thing I am saying is that without a test group it is just something you believe.

The manufacturers who test this stuff out the ying yang don't seem to agree with you.

I never even said you were wrong. Just pointing out the scientific method.


----------



## rogue60 (Nov 9, 2022)

I did some work at a steal dealer not long ago yup all day cleaning blocked spark arresters that ultra chit is good for business lol


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> You can quote something I said if you like. I simply said that if scavaging 20% more fresh air was 20 % less oil in the crankcase made sense. Duh.
> 
> In the meantime. You have a strong emotional belief that some bearing failures you have seen would not have happened with more oil in the mix.
> 
> ...


Manufacturers drop lemons all the time.
And that's not what you said... just admit they didn't tell you that in Stihl school..


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## buzz sawyer (Nov 9, 2022)

Interesting video. I noticed he ran the saw just on the edge of 4 stroking in both tests. I think he should have re-adjusted the carb for the same max rpm in each test. Oil burns more slowly than gas. It only burns hotter if the heat is there to burn it. I would also like to have seen it run on 16:1 - should have been even hotter, right? 80:1 should be even cooler, right? That being said, is the difference in temps shown really something to be concerned with?


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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

buzz sawyer said:


> Interesting video. I noticed he ran the saw just on the edge of 4 stroking in both tests. I think he should have re-adjusted the carb for the same max rpm in each test. Oil burns more slowly than gas. It only burns hotter if the heat is there to burn it. I would also like to have seen it run on 16:1 - should have been even hotter, right? 80:1 should be even cooler, right? That being said, is the difference in temps shown really something to be concerned with?


Good points. 80 degrees is peanuts and maybe within the margin of error for the tach.
I wouldn't assume oil burns any slower than gasoline. Also keep in mind the oil is present in the combustion chamber as a liquid that is sitting on the surfaces of the piston crown, cylinder wall, etc. It only combusts once the main flame has started and the heat generated vaporizes it. As you mentioned the oil only combusts if the heat of combustion is such that it can heat the oil up past its end point. That's why rich carb tuning causes oil to be expelled in the exhaust.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

I might also say that I have operated motors with a high sample rate data logger and the exhaust temps and rpms continually bounce around.
It's impossible to draw any conclusions from this test or most home brew tests for that matter.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Manufacturers drop lemons all the time.
> And that's not what you said... just admit they didn't tell you that in Stihl school..


 Well, quote what I said. Should be simple.

Never been to a Stihl school.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

Here, I'll do it for you.



huskihl said:


> Traditional two strokes always have. That’s the idea behind strato technology is to purge the exhaust with plain air rather than mixed fuel.
> 
> The 20-30% less comes from the strato air ports. The point being, if a motor is 30% more efficient due to the strato ports, that same fresh air that purges out the exhaust never went through the bottom end and lubricated the bearings


That makes sense. Still, to prove if 50 to1, 40 to 1, 32 to 1, or whatever makes a difference you have to test it against another test group. Otherwise, you are just believing something .
Stihl says you can run the HP Ultra 70 to 1 with no problems. And, you can bet they have tested it.
Hell, Amsoil says 100 to 1 .
In the meantime I have a Lawn Boy 2 stroke that says 32 to 1 right on the cap and I have been running it 50 to 1 for 30 years. I have had to replace the gear box, the rear wheels several times, front wheels several times. The deck is welded up like Frankenstein's face. And, it just keeps going.
I take all of the clutter with a lot of salt.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oil-film-thickness



Here is something to read. I suspect you could use it to prove or disprove what you already believe.

But, just look at the math calculations. There is a method to the madness.


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## camel2019 (Nov 9, 2022)

50 to 1 and higher ratios are for the EPA. I will stick to my Dino oil and 32 to 1 since most of my saws were built before the summer of love I think that’s is a good idea.


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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oil-film-thickness
> 
> 
> 
> ...





ZeroJunk said:


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oil-film-thickness
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not applicable to a two stroke.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> More like they are blowing 20% less raw fuel out the exhaust.


How about this.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> 50 to 1 and higher ratios are for the EPA. I will stick to my Dino oil and 32 to 1 since most of my saws were built before the summer of love I think that’s is a good idea.


That's not exactly true. The EPA doesn't regulate oil ratios. They do regulate unburnt HC, but oil has a min effect on that.
The MFG went to 50:1 before the EPA was very involved in regulating small engines. The reasoning was that they wanted to limit visible smoke with the relatively poor oils of the time and they wanted to limit plug fouling given that most people can't tune a carb to save their lives.
Never mind the fact that the engines themselves materials wise either didn't change at all or changed minimally.
Latter when strato engines started to appear on the market failures increased and this really can't be denied. Rotating assembly weight increased, oil through the engine decreased due to fuel efficiency improvements and heat increased due to less fuel cooling the motor and increasingly choked up mufflers.
In the racing world its been known for years that running more oil in your fuel leads to longer engine life and more power. In fact some of these.engines are so high string that they simply won't live at something like 50:1 and as a result they use thick ester oils or castor based oils at ratios around 16:1. These engines are Smokeless once warmed up snd internally they remain very clean as long as castor isn't used. I've been inside Yamaha KT100 air cooled kart motors that are perfect in regards to cleanliness when ran on Yamalube 2R at 16:1.
Like wise I have been inside saws and other O P E ran at 32:1 that look perfect.


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## huskihl (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Here, I'll do it for you.
> 
> 
> That makes sense. Still, to prove if 50 to1, 40 to 1, 32 to 1, or whatever makes a difference you have to test it against another test group. Otherwise, you are just believing something .
> ...


I’ve been messing with the insides of saws for about 10 years. Seen many tree service strato saws within a year or 2 of being new with bad crank bearings. Once the owners were advised of better oil and using more of it, the problems went away. I know of several 5 series huskies with 300-500 hours with bad bearings. I also know of several that have 1500 hours on the original bearings. The difference? Low quality oil at 50:1 vs high quality oil at 32 or 40:1. Hours verified with the CST. 

The issues are there if you seek them out


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> How about this.



Exactly.


----------



## The Shooters Apprentice (Nov 9, 2022)




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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Exactly.


You didn't have a clue or you wouldn't have made that comment.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’ve been messing with the insides of saws for about 10 years. Seen many tree service strato saws within a year or 2 of being new with bad crank bearings. Once the owners were advised of better oil and using more of it, the problems went away. I know of several 5 series huskies with 300-500 hours with bad bearings. I also know of several that have 1500 hours on the original bearings. The difference? Low quality oil at 50:1 vs high quality oil at 32 or 40:1. Hours verified with the CST.
> 
> The issues are there if you seek them out



I don't doubt you. There were complaints with larger displacement Husqvarnas going back at least a decade that I am pretty sure were single intake. And, guys were saying that 32 to 1 helped.

I still have some questions. Of that percentage of oil wasted out the exhaust, how much could have been stacked on bearings anyway? I don't know. How much oil can be attached to the surface of a bearing ? I don't know. At some point it is like pouring water on the hood of your car./

I was told that the reason why older saws had a heavier mix in addition to the oil not being as good was that the tolerances were sloppier. I don't know.

My thinking is simply that the engineers who blend the oil and design the saws do.

But, it would be foolish to think nothing slips through the cracks as well.

I have one tree service customer that has three of the non Mtronic 362's that have that dual intake carb. He works them hard. Only problem he has had is his men manage to get that stupid piece of linkage out of the slot somehow. You couldn't do it trying. And, I took some 1708 fiberglass and epoxy and repaired a broken rear handle, Probably 5 years ago and still holding fine. I have no idea what oil he runs, but he just gets regular ethanol at the gas station every day. Hell, he's still using an 044 that has who knows how many hours on it. Think I replaced the carb, fuel line, and tank vent once.

Anyhow, I work on a lot of MS201T's for some reason. Big saws are rare. I rebuilt a MS462C that hung a skirt a few weeks ago. But, mostly home owner saws. And, blowers, weedeaters, trimmers, and pole saws forever.

If there is a logger in the bunch I don't know them.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You didn't have a clue or you wouldn't have made that comment.


You do realize that the theory behind "strato-porting" is so you don't waste raw fuel out the exhaust don't you ?


----------



## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> You do realize that the theory behind "strato-porting" is so you don't waste raw fuel out the exhaust don't you ?



I believe Kevin mentioned that way back in post #101 of this thread- keep up with the play!


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’ve been messing with the insides of saws for about 10 years. Seen many tree service strato saws within a year or 2 of being new with bad crank bearings. Once the owners were advised of better oil and using more of it, the problems went away. I know of several 5 series huskies with 300-500 hours with bad bearings. I also know of several that have 1500 hours on the original bearings. The difference? Low quality oil at 50:1 vs high quality oil at 32 or 40:1. Hours verified with the CST.
> 
> The issues are there if you seek them out



Oh, I did put a piston in a MS500I after one tank using a 36 inch bar. Veteran tree service guy.
Started to post in the 500I thread put figured I would get in to another circular logic battle with another moron.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I don't doubt you. There were complaints with larger displacement Husqvarnas going back at least a decade that I am pretty sure were single intake. And, guys were saying that 32 to 1 helped.
> 
> I still have some questions. Of that percentage of oil wasted out the exhaust, how much could have been stacked on bearings anyway? I don't know. How much oil can be attached to the surface of a bearing ? I don't know. At some point it is like pouring water on the hood of your car./
> 
> ...


What your really asking is about migration time. Google up "two cycle oil migration time".


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> You do realize that the theory behind "strato-porting" is so you don't waste raw fuel out the exhaust don't you ?


Of course I do... but it also leads to less oil moving through the motor. You do understand that now, right?


----------



## fastduc (Nov 9, 2022)

Running more oil will displace a small amount of fuel. 3 ingredients are pushed into your engine by atmospheric pressure, air, fuel and oil. If you put more oil in the mix you will displace air causing a leaner condition in the combustion chamber. So many variables (Jet size, oil type barometric pressure temperature of the saw, octane of the fuel all play into the factoring of the optimal fuel oil ratio). From my experience it is best to use qualty oil mixed at the ratio determined by the factory engineers. FWIW


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## camel2019 (Nov 9, 2022)

fastduc said:


> Running more oil will displace a small amount of fuel. 3 ingredients are pushed into your engine by atmospheric pressure, air, fuel and oil. If you put more oil in the mix you will displace air causing a leaner condition in the combustion chamber. So many variables (Jet size, oil type barometric pressure temperature of the saw, octane of the fuel all play into the factoring of the optimal fuel oil ratio). From my experience it is best to use qualty oil mixed at the ratio determined by the factory engineers. FWIW


Or just turn the screws and run more oil


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> No smoke when you tune your equipment to the mix.


That's the most important fact of all brother


----------



## grizz55chev (Nov 9, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> You think chainsaws and fuel mix newbies are bad? Try beekeeping and coming with 40 odd years of experience versus some first season beehaver with a thousand hours of youtube videos watched!
> Then you will learn about banging your head on brick walls!


There was a beekeeper on here a little while back, Aleooper, or something there abouts, recently passed away. Loved reading his posts. RIP Al! ♥


----------



## Lawless (Nov 9, 2022)

Bought the 4 jug deal on Red Armor seen on the site here. I have been using it since the summer when I ran out of the Stihl orange I had previously used forever. The 4 jugs at that price is a steal. 

I have run all of my 2 cycle equipment at 50:1 for many years in business and haven’t had any issues with worn out engines. Saws, trimmers, edgers and blowers all get the same mix. 

I have a FS55R that I wouldn’t begin to guess how many hours are on it. It’s 15 years old. 

Tuning is key I believe. 

New dude but have lurked a long time. I’ve been helped many instances by you folks and have enjoyed countless discussions from the shadows. 

Glad to be among you


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

fastduc said:


> Running more oil will displace a small amount of fuel. 3 ingredients are pushed into your engine by atmospheric pressure, air, fuel and oil. If you put more oil in the mix you will displace air causing a leaner condition in the combustion chamber. So many variables (Jet size, oil type barometric pressure temperature of the saw, octane of the fuel all play into the factoring of the optimal fuel oil ratio). From my experience it is best to use qualty oil mixed at the ratio determined by the factory engineers. FWIW


I was with you until you mentioned factory engineers !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

grizz55chev said:


> There was a beekeeper on here a little while back, Aleooper, or something there abouts, recently passed away. Loved reading his posts. RIP Al! ♥


Alley was quite the gentleman , great sportsman indeed brother !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Most don’t want it. They just want to defend their own baseless opinion


Nah , that's not true Kevin . You have swayed quite a few to you realm brother !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Yay for you and I can rebuild the top end on most pro saws in about 20 min as long as the piston clips cooperate. You wouldn’t have to work on so much equipment if the company yu support so much would design things better stop producing in China and find a better oil company to supply them.


Sorry C , just laughing at the cir clip remark , I got a visual brother !


----------



## Lightning Performance (Nov 9, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> I have another question about oil...if I put it in my oatmeal will I run faster and work harder?


Yes
You will run real fast to the chitter, again and again
Hope that helps


----------



## Lightning Performance (Nov 9, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> But isnt that the whole idea of youtube?


YouLube?...


----------



## Lightning Performance (Nov 9, 2022)

NSEric said:


> Im a former dirt bike guy who had 2 strokes.
> If you run 32-1 in them the bottom end bearings last forever, if you run 50 or 60-1 your bearings go after 200 or so hours. It takes a long time for this to show up. Engine builders would do tear down and inspections to see how much oil was left in the crank case, with 50-1 the crank was pretty dry, with 32-1 it was oily.
> I run 32-1 in my china saws to keep the bearings lubed up, the piston doesnt care what ratio you run.


This might all be well and good if your not running heavy doses of castor oil. That builds up on the piston in an overheated condition. It will lockup the engine and save it from metal to metal contact.
Flash point and ignition points matter.

I'm done here
Carry on.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> I believe Kevin mentioned that way back in post #101 of this thread- keep up with the play!



Look at post 99 of this thread. If you think that 20% or 30% of oil that was going out the exhaust with the raw fuel pre strato was doing anything


bwalker said:


> Of course I do... but it also leads to less oil moving through the motor. You do understand that now, right?



I actually never thought about it. I figured that whatever oil was mixed with the wasted gas was wasted right along with it. You think not and may very well be right.


----------



## camel2019 (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Sorry C , just laughing at the cir clip remark , I got a visual brother !


Lots go flying across the room that’s for sure lol.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


>


300 hrs for some of today's Homeowner clam shell saws , is all their designed to achieve unfortunately !


----------



## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> 300 hrs for some of today's Homeowner clam shell saws , is all their designed to achieve unfortunately



If they do not get straight gassed in the first month.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I remember it being 25:1.


18:1 was the cut off on mx within performance . It dropped 2% @ 32:1 & 6% @ 40:1 . They also mention 20:1 was routinely recommended in the higher rpm 125 class bikes & that 60:1 could be utilized within the 500 class due to lower rpm & better oil migration & puddling within the crankcase as residual evidence !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> If they do not get straight gassed in the first month.


Yep , I am with you there Bob


----------



## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> 300 hrs for some of today's Homeowner clam shell saws , is all their designed to achieve unfortunately !


One might ask why they would be designed to achieve any more than that. And, at what cost to somebody who will likely never put 3 hours on one.


----------



## skeet88 (Nov 9, 2022)

Due to the rising cost of popcorn I make a motion to limit this and all future oil threads to 200 posts.  Well 2 more left , make ‘em count!


----------



## rogue60 (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I don't doubt you. There were complaints with larger displacement Husqvarnas going back at least a decade that I am pretty sure were single intake. And, guys were saying that 32 to 1 helped.
> 
> I still have some questions. Of that percentage of oil wasted out the exhaust, how much could have been stacked on bearings anyway? I don't know. How much oil can be attached to the surface of a bearing ? I don't know. At some point it is like pouring water on the hood of your car./
> 
> ...


The myth of newer engines having tighter tolerances where did it even come from people just make chit up lol


----------



## ZeroJunk (Nov 9, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> The myth of newer engines having tighter tolerances where did it even come from people just make chit up lol


My first saw was a Homelite 7-19C made in 1959. So, you are thinking that newer saws do not have tighter tolerances ?


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I was with you until you mentioned factory engineers !


Yea...lol. Those same engineers put a fixed high side jet on the Ms260 and then plugged the muffler up. Result was many scored skirts and chitty running saws.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> My first saw was a Homelite 7-19C made in 1959. So, you are thinking that newer saws do not have tighter tolerances ?


Air cooled motors do not have tight tolerances.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> The myth of newer engines having tighter tolerances where did it even come from people just make chit up lol


Pretty much.


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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Look at post 99 of this thread. If you think that 20% or 30% of oil that was going out the exhaust with the raw fuel pre strato was doing anything
> 
> 
> I actually never thought about it. I figured that whatever oil was mixed with the wasted gas was wasted right along with it. You think not and may very well be right.


Thanks for admitting that. And I guarantee what I said was 100% accurate.


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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> 18:1 was the cut off on mx within performance . It dropped 2% @ 32:1 & 6% @ 40:1 . They also mention 20:1 was routinely recommended in the higher rpm 125 class bikes & that 60:1 could be utilized within the 500 class due to lower rpm & better oil migration & puddling within the crankcase as residual evidence !


I've messed around with cr500 motors that where in various states of tune for many years. I would not run any less than 40:1 in that particular motor. I always ran mine at 32:1 or more depending on load/use. The cast iron cylinder liner in concert with the forged pistons I prefer for that application are not very forgiving.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yea...lol. Those same engineers put a fixed high side jet on the Ms260 and then plugged the muffler up. Result was many scored skirts and chitty running saws.


Oh , i had a lot of intense moments understanding the design rational of fixed main jets on numerous recreational engines . That were to be utilized within various elevations throughout the world . No achievable tuniability without a complete jet replacement . Then lets make it even worse & restrict the exhaust capabilities or install limitors or welch plugs or even epoxy to deter operator capable engine tuning for basic temperature or barometric pressure swings . Oh don't touch that , it will void your warranty , seriously as if I give a chit about any expressed limited warranty lol. I did the same with my 1980 lowrider back in the day . Drilled out the Welch plugs adjusted the low speed jet & replaced the high speed jet . Hell , it was running so rich at 6000' through the Smokie Mountains , it would barely start & run , until I gapped the plugs @ .050 to get to the closest dealer to borrow a drill & installed the new jet & retuned the bike . Anyhow yeah Engineer's .  Thank God they then trashed the fixed jet Mikuni's & went back to tunable Kehien CV 's the next yr !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I've messed around with cr500 motors that where in various states of tune for many years. I would not run any less than 40:1 in that particular motor. I always ran mine at 32:1 or more depending on load/use. The cast iron cylinder liner in concert with the forged pistons I prefer for that application are not very forgiving.


I hear you , I never personally ran any MX bike that lean , especially at around sea level here , not near enough safety factor . I always ran 40:1 in my Enduro's & 32:1 in a Moto-x when modern quality 2T oil became the norm . I always like a little fatter oil ratio in performance related equipment . Especially , within Quality Forged pistons & Likosil performance liners . Oils cheaper than aftermarket parts & unscheduled downtime !


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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Oh , i had a lot of intense moments understanding the design rational of fix high speed jets on numerous recreational engines . That were to be utilized within various elevations throughout the world . No achievable tuniability without complete jet replacement . Then lets make it even worse & restrict the exhaust capabilities or install limitors or welch plugs or even epoxy to deter operator capable engine tuning for basic temperature or barometric pressure swings . Oh don't touch that it will void your warranty , seriously as if I give a chit about any expressed limited warranty lol. I did the same with my 1980 lowrider back in the day . Drilled out the Welch plugs adjusted the low speed jet & replaced the high speed jet . Hell , it was running so rich at 6000' through the Smokie Mountains it would barley run until I gapped the plugs @ .050 to get to the closest dealer to borrow a drill & installed the new jet & retuned the bike . Anyhow yeah Engineer's .  Thank God they then trashed the fixed jet Mikuni's & went back to tunable Kehien CV 's the next yr !


My first 260 would barely run with the stock carb. Very lean!


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> My first 260 would barely run with the stock carb. Very lean!


What was you elevation then , about sea level more or less ?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> One might ask why they would be designed to achieve any more than that. And, at what cost to somebody who will likely never put 3 hours on one.


As business decision your most likely correct !


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## Lawless (Nov 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> My first 260 would barely run with the stock carb. Very lean!


This one I just picked up has the carb with both screws, has plastic limiters I need to remove. I am going to drill 2 more holes in the muffler and see how I like it.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2022)

Liquid cooled engines do have much tighter tolerences . Not much has changed within air cooled tolerances , perhaps better quality components due to more precise metallurgy !


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## bwalker (Nov 9, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> What was you elevation then , about sea level more or less ?


UP of MI so maybe 1200'.


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## Pioneer (Nov 9, 2022)

Will some oils actually dry up over time? I just pulled apart a junkyard Husqvarna 50 that had a very nice oem piston/cylinder in it. The crankshaft was very difficult to move and I thought the bearings were shot. On a hunch I oiled them up and now they move freely. Oiling the seals seemed to make no difference.
This is a cause for concern if I was going to store a saw for any length of time, I'm now thinking fogging will be mandatory. 
It seems so little oil was left in the crank of that saw, yet there is no scoring and it would be fine with just a new ring. Or perhaps this is carbon from blow by that has hardened over time and the oil loosened it up? It did have some carbon stains in the crankcase. 
Maybe that extra bit of oil at 40:1 vs 50:1 will have another benefit besides reduced engine wear, more oil in the crankcase for long term storage.


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## MacAttack (Nov 9, 2022)

I've taken apart engines that I knew hadn't run in years and years that still had oily residue. It seems to me that oil doesn't as much dry up as it does "leech" away into anything porous, or turn into a black coating mixed with dust.


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## huskihl (Nov 9, 2022)

There is also a difference in the way some synthetic oils dry versus mineral oils. Some of the synthetics dry to nearly a wax type substance


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## bwalker (Nov 10, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Will some oils actually dry up over time? I just pulled apart a junkyard Husqvarna 50 that had a very nice oem piston/cylinder in it. The crankshaft was very difficult to move and I thought the bearings were shot. On a hunch I oiled them up and now they move freely. Oiling the seals seemed to make no difference.
> This is a cause for concern if I was going to store a saw for any length of time, I'm now thinking fogging will be mandatory.
> It seems so little oil was left in the crank of that saw, yet there is no scoring and it would be fine with just a new ring. Or perhaps this is carbon from blow by that has hardened over time and the oil loosened it up? It did have some carbon stains in the crankcase.
> Maybe that extra bit of oil at 40:1 vs 50:1 will have another benefit besides reduced engine wear, more oil in the crankcase for long term storage.


Extra residual oil is another very good reason to use a bit more oil.
I use fogging oil in all my stuff if it will be not used for an extended period of time.


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## bwalker (Nov 10, 2022)

huskihl said:


> There is also a difference in the way some synthetic oils dry versus mineral oils. Some of the synthetics dry to nearly a wax type substance


That waxy substance is typically found when ester based oils break down, which they rapidly do in the presence of water and 02. Esters are actually made by reacting a acid with a fatty molecule of some sort, so the residue you noted makes sense.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> UP of MI so maybe 1200'.


Wow , almost as bad as Echo's reputation for factory lean condition . That's brutal !


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## ApePilot (Nov 10, 2022)

To add to the answers of oil ratios, I use 25:1 100LL/Maxima K2 in my 3120xp and 30:1 in my smaller stihls.
I've had to switch carbs in the 3120xp to a WB37 with some modifications so that I can adjust the high-speed circuit. WB37 doesn't come with a choke, so use a fabbed linkage to prime the diaphragm. Works really well. Operating at about 1000'-4000' msl at density-altitudes of (-)100' through (+)6000', depending on weather conditions, so careful carb-tuning each day is a prerequisite to a happy engine. Pistons always appear bright and clean, top and bottom... obviously because it's running cool. I've done some tame porting mods to the 3120xp -- trimmed the base so compression is up to around a true 10:1; squish is tight at around 0.30mm, lower transfers opened and radiused for good flow; transfer tunnels smoothed and polished (kinda). Merely widened the exhaust port, upper transfers, and intake port a bit. Unlimited coil retarded by 12 degrees makes for easy starts and tons of power over 8500 rpm. Fabbed custom exhaust. Lightened and flowed piston; coned piston-pin ends. Balanced crank/rod/piston assembly. Try to keep her below 12,000 rpm. Runs like a raped ape, but super-smooth. A real pleasure to handle.


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## bwalker (Nov 10, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> To add to the answers of oil ratios, I use 25:1 100LL/Maxima K2 in my 3120xp and 30:1 in my smaller stihls.
> I've had to switch carbs in the 3120xp to a WB37 with some modifications so that I can adjust the high-speed circuit. WB37 doesn't come with a choke, so use a fabbed linkage to prime the diaphragm. Works really well. Operating at about 1000'-1500' msl at density-altitudes of 0'-5000', depending on weather conditions, so careful carb-tuning each day is a prerequisite to a happy engine. Pistons always appear bright and clean, top and bottom... obviously because it's running cool. I've done some tame porting mods to the 3120xp -- trimmed the base so compression is up to around a true 10:1; squish is tight at around 0.30mm, lower transfers opened and radiused for good flow; transfer tunnels smoothed and polished (kinda). Merely widened the exhaust port, upper transfers, and intake poer a bit. Unlimited coil retarded by 12 degrees makes for easy starts and tons of power over 8500 rpm. Fabbed custom exhaust. Lightened and flowed piston; coned piston-pin ends. Balanced crank/rod/piston assembly. Try to keep her below 12,000 rpm. Runs like a raped ape, but super-smooth. A real pleasure to handle.


K2 is good oil.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 10, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> To add to the answers of oil ratios, I use 25:1 100LL/Maxima K2 in my 3120xp and 30:1 in my smaller stihls.
> I've had to switch carbs in the 3120xp to a WB37 with some modifications so that I can adjust the high-speed circuit. WB37 doesn't come with a choke, so use a fabbed linkage to prime the diaphragm. Works really well. Operating at about 1000'-4000' msl at density-altitudes of (-)100' through (+)6000', depending on weather conditions, so careful carb-tuning each day is a prerequisite to a happy engine. Pistons always appear bright and clean, top and bottom... obviously because it's running cool. I've done some tame porting mods to the 3120xp -- trimmed the base so compression is up to around a true 10:1; squish is tight at around 0.30mm, lower transfers opened and radiused for good flow; transfer tunnels smoothed and polished (kinda). Merely widened the exhaust port, upper transfers, and intake port a bit. Unlimited coil retarded by 12 degrees makes for easy starts and tons of power over 8500 rpm. Fabbed custom exhaust. Lightened and flowed piston; coned piston-pin ends. Balanced crank/rod/piston assembly. Try to keep her below 12,000 rpm. Runs like a raped ape, but super-smooth. A real pleasure to handle.


Raduising your transfers really improves laminiar flow with less turbulence , which inhances scavenging & better overall power delivery . What was your intake & exhaust numbers & duration & degree of blowdown efficiency !


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 10, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Will some oils actually dry up over time? I just pulled apart a junkyard Husqvarna 50 that had a very nice oem piston/cylinder in it. The crankshaft was very difficult to move and I thought the bearings were shot. On a hunch I oiled them up and now they move freely. Oiling the seals seemed to make no difference.
> This is a cause for concern if I was going to store a saw for any length of time, I'm now thinking fogging will be mandatory.
> It seems so little oil was left in the crank of that saw, yet there is no scoring and it would be fine with just a new ring. Or perhaps this is carbon from blow by that has hardened over time and the oil loosened it up? It did have some carbon stains in the crankcase.
> Maybe that extra bit of oil at 40:1 vs 50:1 will have another benefit besides reduced engine wear, more oil in the crankcase for long term storage.


 
I bought the 2101XP in my avatar as being locked up. I took a squirt can of mix and sent a shot down the spark plug hole, pulled it over a few times, put the plug in and it cranked right up. About as close to new as you can get.

So, I don't see that as being a bad scheme for a sitting saw.


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## bwalker (Nov 10, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I bought the 2101XP in my avatar as being locked up. I took a squirt can of mix and sent a shot down the spark plug hole, pulled it over a few times, put the plug in and it cranked right up. About as close to new as you can get.
> 
> So, I don't see that as being a bad scheme for a sitting saw.


Gasoline is a great solvent, so that's what probably broke your saw free. However mixed gas has nearly zero ability to lubricate. As such its better to fog them or have ample residual oil.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Gasoline is a great solvent, so that's what probably broke your saw free. However mixed gas has nearly zero ability to lubricate. As such its better to fog them or have ample residual oil.


 That's curious opinion since you are saying in another breath that lack of mixed gas is taking out your bearings.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 10, 2022)

.... That's not what he's said. FFS dude.


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## bwalker (Nov 10, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> That's curious opinion since you are saying in another breath that lack of mixed gas is taking out your bearings.


You only think that because your not using your brain...
When pre mix enters the crankcase of a running two cycle the fuel flashes to vapor and the oil is deposited on the rotating parts...for the second time.
Pre mixed fuel has nearly zero lubricating ability. Only once the oil drops out of suspension and coats the internals does any lubrication take place.


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## MacAttack (Nov 10, 2022)

You're suggesting the oil doesn't make it's way through the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber? Or that some portion of the oil is deposited in the crankcase?


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## KASH (Nov 10, 2022)

Well Zero Junk you must have the mix ratio down pat you unsiezed the saw started her up and she still runs like a charm.Excellent job no pun intended.
Kash


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## bwalker (Nov 10, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> You're suggesting the oil doesn't make it's way through the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber? Or that some portion of the oil is deposited in the crankcase?


In a properly tuned engine the majority of the oil is deposited in the crankcase and migrates from there.
If the fuel doesn't vaporize it doesn't burn well, which is why two strokes when cold smoke and require alot of choke to start.
This isn't earth shattering stuff..


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 11, 2022)

KASH said:


> Well Zero Junk you must have the mix ratio down pat you unsiezed the saw started her up and she still runs like a charm.Excellent job no pun intended.
> Kash




No, it was never seized to start with. Those things are a ***** to pull when being used every day, much less when they are dry.


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## Hman1024 (Nov 11, 2022)

J D said:


> Fuel does a lot in the way of cooling. Essentially you need enough oil in your fuel to give good lubrication, & enough fuel to slightly exceed the "optimum" air fuel ratio. The additional fuel helps cooling & brings rpm down to mechanical design.
> Different oils burn differently


J D brought up many valid points on the topic. Having grown up on motocross bikes was my introduction to 2 strokes that then turned into chainsaw habits. Fine balance between enough lubrication and excess. In the end each machine is going to act uniquely. Let's not for the other two components that make up that power/protection equation, air flow and fuel quality. If you want to go by the science, get a digital tachometer (can sense changes that ears can't hear) and tune for specific saw (equipment), fuel, oil, any mods, your type of saw usage, firewood, timber or sawmill application.

If interested, with the attachment, you can geek out on on the science behind two strokes and how they work in relation to these attributes but also gets into exhaust porting, timing and about anything you can dream of.


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## MacAttack (Nov 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> In a properly tuned engine the majority of the oil is deposited in the crankcase and migrates from there.
> If the fuel doesn't vaporize it doesn't burn well, which is why two strokes when cold smoke and require alot of choke to start.
> This isn't earth shattering stuff..


I'm always looking to learn something new, you've posted a lot of knowledgeable info but I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Maybe there's something you can cite in a link that I can check out?
My understanding was always that the smoke on startup is due to unburned oil / fuel due to a cold engine being inefficient, the same as a cold diesel engine or a 4-cycle gas engine with a lot of choke smoking at startup. Unburned fuel = smoke. Once it's warmed up and burning efficiently the smoke subsides.
I can't buy into the idea that the oil drops out of the mix, obviously SOME oil lubricates the bottom end, that's it's job! But a freshly rebuilt 2 stroke smokes immediately because of the oil burning out of the combustion chamber.
But ...I love to learn something new, why am I wrong?


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 11, 2022)

What I was talking about is the mix slicking up the cylinder walls. On saws that have been sitting a long time you can feel it smooth up almost on the first pull.
The oil mixed with gas is part of it.


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## sean donato (Nov 11, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I don't doubt you. There were complaints with larger displacement Husqvarnas going back at least a decade that I am pretty sure were single intake. And, guys were saying that 32 to 1 helped.
> 
> I still have some questions. Of that percentage of oil wasted out the exhaust, how much could have been stacked on bearings anyway? I don't know. How much oil can be attached to the surface of a bearing ? I don't know. At some point it is like pouring water on the hood of your car./
> 
> ...


Up untill last year someone husqy recommended 33 to 1 in any saw over 60cc. Sometime last year they moved that to over 75cc. Which I think was a mistake but for whatever reason that's their reccomendations.


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## camel2019 (Nov 11, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> That's curious opinion since you are saying in another breath that lack of mixed gas is taking out your bearings.


There’s a huge difference between liquid gasoline and the vaporized mix that comes in through the a carb.


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## MacAttack (Nov 11, 2022)

So... I've found similar accounts on the web " the oil suspended in premix deposits in the crankcase to replace oil migrating to the combustion chamber" or similar, interesting.
I'd love to see something in a controlled experiment to show this.


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## camel2019 (Nov 11, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> What I was talking about is the mix slicking up the cylinder walls. On saws that have been sitting a long time you can feel it smooth up almost on the first pull.
> The oil mixed with gas is part of it.


Like said earlier in this thread liquid fuel is basically a solvent in the past I have used it as such.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> I'm always looking to learn something new, you've posted a lot of knowledgeable info but I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Maybe there's something you can cite in a link that I can check out?
> My understanding was always that the smoke on startup is due to unburned oil / fuel due to a cold engine being inefficient, the same as a cold diesel engine or a 4-cycle gas engine with a lot of choke smoking at startup. Unburned fuel = smoke. Once it's warmed up and burning efficiently the smoke subsides.
> I can't buy into the idea that the oil drops out of the mix, obviously SOME oil lubricates the bottom end, that's it's job! But a freshly rebuilt 2 stroke smokes immediately because of the oil burning out of the combustion chamber.
> But ...I love to learn something new, why am I wrong?


The smoke at start up is because of unburnt fuel. Fuel that isn't in a vapor form can't burn..
You can disagree but this is very basic stuff.
And the oil has to drop out of suspension to lubricate.
It's also why you find oil in the crankcase of a non running engine but not fuel.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> So... I've found similar accounts on the web " the oil suspended in premix deposits in the crankcase to replace oil migrating to the combustion chamber" or similar, interesting.
> I'd love to see something in a controlled experiment to show this.


That's how it works.....


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> There’s a huge difference between liquid gasoline and the vaporized mix that comes in through the a carb.


The fuel is not vaporized in the carb. It's in liquid droplet form. It doesn't vaporize until it encounters the heat from the engine.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The smoke at start up is because of unburnt fuel. Fuel that isn't in a vapor form can't burn..
> You can disagree but this is very basic stuff.
> And the oil has to drop out of suspension to lubricate.
> It's also why you find oil in the crankcase of a non running engine but not fuel.


When your right....your right , very well summarized !


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## Lawless (Nov 11, 2022)

Not argumentative at all, but if a saw is cold and the fuel is not vaporizing completely, wouldn’t the oil in/and unvaporized fuel mix be going into the chamber? And burning (albeit incompletely)?


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## SimonHS (Nov 11, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> I'd love to see something in a controlled experiment to show this.



This sheet is for two-stroke bike engines, but still relevant I think:


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Not argumentative at all, but if a saw is cold and the fuel is not vaporizing completely, wouldn’t the oil in/and unvaporized fuel mix be going into the chamber? And burning (albeit incompletely)?


Yes, and because so little fuel is in vapor form the mixture is very lean and thus we choke the engine to flood it with even more fuel in the hopes we can get enough vapor to light off.
That's another thing. When we talk about fuel to air ratio. What we are talking about is the amount of fuel in vapor form vs the amount of air. Fuel has to vaporize to be combusted.


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## Lawless (Nov 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes, and because so little fuel is in vapor form the mixture is very lean and thus we choke the engine to flood it with even more fuel in the hopes we can get enough vapor to light off.
> That's another thing. When we talk about fuel to air ratio. What we are talking about is the amount of fuel in vapor form vs the amount of air. Fuel has to vaporize to be combusted.


Highly atomized fuel will burn, like with modern fuel injection. Is this happening in the 500i when it’s cold?


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## sean donato (Nov 11, 2022)

SimonHS said:


> This sheet is for two-stroke bike engines, but still relevant I think:
> 
> View attachment 1031366


Same thing I mentioned before max rpm and load determine proper ratio.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 11, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> There’s a huge difference between liquid gasoline and the vaporized mix that comes in through the a carb.



So, you are trying to tell me that gasoline mixed with oil will not slick a cylinder wall up in a non running saw that I am trying to get loosened up any more that raw gas.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Highly atomized fuel will burn, like with modern fuel injection. Is this happening in the 500i when it’s cold?


No, atomized liquid droplets will not burn..
Nothing special about a 500I in this regard. The injector set up on the 500 is a crude low pressure design anyways and just pukes out fuel like a carb. The only differance is the control factor.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> So, you are trying to tell me that gasoline mixed with oil will not slick a cylinder wall up in a non running saw that I am trying to get loosened up any more that raw gas.


Yes. Liquid premix has nearly zero lubricating properties.
Even in a 4 cycle trace fuel dilution in the oil degrades lubricating ability. Now increase that dilution many times over and you have pre mix.


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## MacAttack (Nov 11, 2022)

Ok Im starting to see this... but gasoline doesn't burn blue, it burns black. So there IS oil getting to the combustion chamber. Residual oil from the crankcase? 
If I were to pull the plug wire off my saw, pull it over a ton of times with a piece of tissue paper on the exhaust and tested it, there would be gasoline and no oil present?
Honest questions.... And this isn't basic stuff until I see that controlled experiment.


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## sand sock (Nov 11, 2022)

The carboned up pistons that die from scoring from caking and falling off are from clogged spark arrestors. I run just shy of 50:1. 2.5 gal mix gets 2.495ish . 

My 2008 Stihl 361. It's all stock, the cylinder is still clean. Mostly 30 cords a year. But have done up to 50. I am concious of how hot the saws getting. I try not to run out of fuel. I change the air filter every fall. I try not to cut when it's hot. 
Maybe I should think about putting in a new oem piston. Maybe I am just trying to live life right. That my saw is lasting. Maybe it's because it's a prograde. 
My little 562 . I can't believe how warm the saw gets while cutting. Maybe I need to pull the spark arrestor s to see if it runs cooler


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No, atomized liquid droplets will not burn..
> Nothing special about a 500I in this regard. The injector set up on the 500 is a crude low pressure design anyways and just pukes out fuel like a carb. The only differance is the control factor.



SOME fuel will be vaporized, even just sitting in a can in open air, at ambient temperature. You look closely and you can see the fumes; this is what makes gasoline so dangerous vs. diesel or kerosene.

Smaller droplets = more surface area = more vapor. While the atomized droplets themselves may not burn, the smaller droplets do contribute to there being more fuel vapor which will burn, and the smaller droplets will also vaporize more easily when subjected to heat. They'll fully vaporize faster than larger droplets for a given amount of heat, or fully vaporize at lower temperatures than larger droplets, in the same amount of time. All of this contributes to easier starting and less time on choke being necessary. It definitely helps.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes. Liquid premix has nearly zero lubricating properties.
> Even in a 4 cycle trace fuel dilution in the oil degrades lubricating ability. Now increase that dilution many times over and you have pre mix.


LOL. I could just pour oil down the spark plug hole. But, usually I like to get them started sometime the same day.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Ok Im starting to see this... but gasoline doesn't burn blue, it burns black. So there IS oil getting to the combustion chamber. Residual oil from the crankcase?
> If I were to pull the plug wire off my saw, pull it over a ton of times with a piece of tissue paper on the exhaust and tested it, there would be gasoline and no oil present?
> Honest questions.... And this isn't basic stuff until I see that controlled experiment.


The oil ends up getting burnt in the combustion chamber. The blue smoke partially combusted or uncombesyed gasoline and oil. A cold 4 cycle will do the same thing, only to a lesser extent for reasons inherent to the design.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> LOL. I could just pour oil down the spark plug hole. But, usually I like to get them started sometime the same day.


You initially said the saw was advertised as not turning over. If that was the case I would put some two cycle oil down the plug hole.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> SOME fuel will be vaporized, even just sitting in a can in open air, at ambient temperature. You look closely and you can see the fumes; this is what makes gasoline so dangerous vs. diesel or kerosene.
> 
> Smaller droplets = more surface area = more vapor. While the atomized droplets themselves may not burn, the smaller droplets do contribute to there being more fuel vapor which will burn, and the smaller droplets will also vaporize more easily when subjected to heat. They'll fully vaporize faster than larger droplets for a given amount of heat, or fully vaporize at lower temperatures than larger droplets, in the same amount of time. All of this contributes to easier starting and less time on choke being necessary. It definitely helps.


Yes, that's all true. However the 500I is a low pressure injection setup and as such droplet size will be very similar. 
With fuel injection you also have the option of really pounding the fuel to the motor, but cutting it off really quick, which a choke doesn't do.


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Ok Im starting to see this... but gasoline doesn't burn blue, it burns black. So there IS oil getting to the combustion chamber. Residual oil from the crankcase?
> If I were to pull the plug wire off my saw, pull it over a ton of times with a piece of tissue paper on the exhaust and tested it, there would be gasoline and no oil present?
> Honest questions.... And this isn't basic stuff until I see that controlled experiment.


That would also depend on if the saw was warm.
As for your expirement. It's pretty well known that solids and liquids don't burn..only vapors. This applies to even wood...


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You initially said the saw was advertised as not turning over. If that was the case I would put some two cycle oil down the plug hole.


Could have. Mix did the trick just fine. Saying it has no lubricating properties when I can feel it immediately pulling it is some typical forum BS. I had an 036 that hadn't been run in years, and the owner was saying the bearings or who knows what else was out of it. I squirted some mix down the plug hole and had it running in 30 seconds. He wanted to know what I had done to it , and I said basically nothing.

I suspect if you would actually do some of this instead of being this cycles forum know it all might help you get a better grasp of the real world of making things run.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 11, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Same thing I mentioned before max rpm and load determine proper ratio.


Interesting fact , that migration at idle can take as long as 10 minutes . Also that Maxima rates 60:1 for recreational riding . I will stay with my 40:1 ratio , oils a cheap insurance & a little xtra puddling within the crankcase & metal surfaces is beneficial in my opinion .


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## bwalker (Nov 11, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Could have. Mix did the trick just fine. Saying it has no lubricating properties when I can feel it immediately pulling it is some typical forum BS. I had an 036 that hadn't been run in years, and the owner was saying the bearings or who knows what else was out of it. I squirted some mix down the plug hole and had it running in 30 seconds. He wanted to know what I had done to it , and I said basically nothing.
> 
> I suspect if you would actually do some of this instead of being this cycles forum know it all might help you get a better grasp of the real world of making things run.


PREMIX has zero lubricating properties! Get that through your thick skull.
I don't know it all, but clearly many here have a leg up on YOU.
I suspect you haven't done a whole lot of mechanic work, because you can't comprehend the basics..
My job is to get pieces of equipment running and to keep them running. Much more expensive than a 500 dollar dead simple chainsaw...


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 11, 2022)

Got to love an oil thread- usually about 2 pages in the original question is lost- lots of irrelevant information about 2 stroke motorcycles, followed by a pissing contest or three. 
Kind of like passing a wreck involving a school bus and a semi trailer- you shouldn't stare, but it is hard not to. 
For 75% of casual users and even members on here- pick an oil you like the look of- pick a ratio you can understand somewhere between 30:1 and 50:1, mix your fuel, tune the saw to your chosen mix, run the saw- if it dies- learn from it!


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## Pioneer (Nov 11, 2022)

Carburetors convert the fuel into a very fine aerosol. When it enters the combustion chamber some of it gets turned into a true vapor as it hits the hot surfaces, some remains suspended in very fine droplets where they flash into vapor as the flame front reaches them after ignition. Some makes its way through without ever getting burnt, especially true in a cold, slow running, or both, engine.

The old v8s used a heat riser in the intake manifold to help promote better vaporization of the fuel mix at low RPM. This is why you found out that blocking off that riser gave you worse mileage.

Carburetors do a lousy job of atomization at low RPM. This is one of the reasons why we went to fuel injection, they do not rely on air velocity for this to happen. The smaller atomized droplets promote more complete burning and better fuel efficiency.

Many years ago I played around with the true vapor system in an old Toyota, where I preheated fuel to a complete vapor and then routed it to the engine. I used an air bleed valve to control the mixture, and used a heater box where I pumped hot antifreeze through to heat the fuel and then pumped the hot fuel onto a large surface area where air was drawn past to pick up the vapor.
One thing became immediately apparent, there was a marked improvement in low speed performance. You could put the car in fifth gear, bring it right down to 800 RPM and then hit full throttle. It would accelerate absolutely smoothly, where with the carburetor it would buck and spit until it hit a half decent RPM. 
Fuel mileage came up somewhere around 10% in town, but I ultimately shelved the system because it could not supply enough vapor to get the car over 60 mph.

Another thing I learned is that our gasoline is a witches brew of different components and will turn into a brown sludge if you let the volatiles completely evaporate away from sitting at room temperature. You have to heat gasoline quite a bit to get all of them to vaporize. Naptha is a much cleaner fuel and quite a bit better suited for vaporization. The reason why we use it in camp stoves.
So, heat and rpm play an important role in carbureted engines when it comes to proper burning of the fuel mixture, factor in the oil mix ratio and oil type and you have another set of variables to contend with.


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## KASH (Nov 11, 2022)

In November of 1979 I bought my Husky 162 se from Noro Saw .At this period in time and for years after the cutting of pulp wood by cut and skid was in its hey day with many company bush camps and many private contractors.Noro was the largest seller of Husky in North America.My brother and I both bought 162s and part of the deal was 2 chains and a case of Castroll 2 stroke oil.The two Swedes told us to mix it at 1 quart to 5 gallons I was reading the owners manual and pointed out that it said if you used Husky oil you could mix 50 to 1 but if you used any other oil it was 25 to1.The two guys chuckled and one said go ahead and mix it at 50to1 you will be back to buy another saw in a little while.
Kash


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## Tomos770 (Nov 12, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Carburetors convert the fuel into a very fine aerosol. When it enters the combustion chamber some of it gets turned into a true vapor as it hits the hot surfaces, some remains suspended in very fine droplets where they flash into vapor as the flame front reaches them after ignition. Some makes its way through without ever getting burnt, especially true in a cold, slow running, or both, engine.
> 
> The old v8s used a heat riser in the intake manifold to help promote better vaporization of the fuel mix at low RPM. This is why you found out that blocking off that riser gave you worse mileage.
> 
> ...



Slo-mo @6:32


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## North by Northwest (Nov 12, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> To add to the answers of oil ratios, I use 25:1 100LL/Maxima K2 in my 3120xp and 30:1 in my smaller stihls.
> I've had to switch carbs in the 3120xp to a WB37 with some modifications so that I can adjust the high-speed circuit. WB37 doesn't come with a choke, so use a fabbed linkage to prime the diaphragm. Works really well. Operating at about 1000'-4000' msl at density-altitudes of (-)100' through (+)6000', depending on weather conditions, so careful carb-tuning each day is a prerequisite to a happy engine. Pistons always appear bright and clean, top and bottom... obviously because it's running cool. I've done some tame porting mods to the 3120xp -- trimmed the base so compression is up to around a true 10:1; squish is tight at around 0.30mm, lower transfers opened and radiused for good flow; transfer tunnels smoothed and polished (kinda). Merely widened the exhaust port, upper transfers, and intake port a bit. Unlimited coil retarded by 12 degrees makes for easy starts and tons of power over 8500 rpm. Fabbed custom exhaust. Lightened and flowed piston; coned piston-pin ends. Balanced crank/rod/piston assembly. Try to keep her below 12,000 rpm. Runs like a raped ape, but super-smooth. A real pleasure to handle.


I did not hear back on your numbers brother , however recently woods ported a quad port 357 xp . I ran with a conservative .018 squish , 141 duration & 13.5 deg. of blowdown & achieved a 500+ rpm gain over stock with a minor muffler mod & goobs of low & midrange torgue . The overall compression with the crank stuffers was pretty well unaffected + a couple of points . I still run 91 octane with Saber @ 44:1 . Very strong firewood saw. P.S. I usually use a 10 deg. raduis on all chamfers including the transfers .


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## Hermio (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You only think that because your not using your brain...
> When pre mix enters the crankcase of a running two cycle the fuel flashes to vapor and the oil is deposited on the rotating parts...for the second time.
> Pre mixed fuel has nearly zero lubricating ability. Only once the oil drops out of suspension and coats the internals does any lubrication take place.


Strictly speaking, the oil is not in suspension. It is in solution. When the gasoline evaporates, the oil remains.


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## sawmill sam (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You only think that because your not using your brain...
> When pre mix enters the crankcase of a running two cycle the fuel flashes to vapor and the oil is deposited on the rotating parts...for the second time.
> Pre mixed fuel has nearly zero lubricating ability. Only once the oil drops out of suspension and coats the internals does any lubrication take place.


well spoken sir! Best explanation I have ever heard.


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Strictly speaking, the oil is not in suspension. It is in solution. When the gasoline evaporates, the oil remains.


What ever. You know what I ment.


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Carburetors convert the fuel into a very fine aerosol. When it enters the combustion chamber some of it gets turned into a true vapor as it hits the hot surfaces, some remains suspended in very fine droplets where they flash into vapor as the flame front reaches them after ignition. Some makes its way through without ever getting burnt, especially true in a cold, slow running, or both, engine.
> 
> The old v8s used a heat riser in the intake manifold to help promote better vaporization of the fuel mix at low RPM. This is why you found out that blocking off that riser gave you worse mileage.
> 
> ...


Naptha has a higher boiling point than gasoline range components. As a results it doesnt vaporize as easily as gasoline.
Also keep in mind that what ever gasoline enters the combustion chamber in liquid form pulls heat from the combustion event, which energy that could be used to drive the piston down.
Car engines and especially old V8's have really long intake runners and easily vaporize most of the fuel admitted to the engine.
The portions of fuel passing through an engine uncombusted are what we call in the refining industry "heavies". They like wise sap power from the engine and will go through a two cycle with out changing phase or partially changing phase/coking, which is what causes much of the deposits seen in a two cycle.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 12, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> well spoken sir! Best explanation I have ever heard.


The turbulence within the crankcase due to the reciprocating mass's , enhances the oil filming capability incredibily !


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> The turbulence within the crankcase due to the reciprocating mass's , enhances the oil filming capability incredibily !


That's one of the mechanisms that's moves the oil around.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> That's one of the mechanisms that's moves the oil a





bwalker said:


> That's one of the mechanisms that's moves the oil around.


Also , the natural rate of vaporization as the oil moves from the crankcase up through the transfers to be burnt or expelled out the exhaust port after wetting metal surfaces , to an extent when you drop rpms , there is a natural wiping action that allows oil to drip back down into the crank & bearing from the cylinder walls . Capillary action to a much lesser degree I imagine also . However , that's all I can further contribute brother on the oil migration potential , within a 2T Premix engine . P.S. Oil Injected systems also inject directly to the small & big end bearings or directly into the intake runner to be aspirated into the fuel charge , although not within saws that iam currently aware ?


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Also , the natural rate of vaporization as the oil moves from the crankcase up through the transfers to be burnt or expelled out the exhaust port after wetting metal surfaces , to an extent when you drop rpms , there is a natural wiping action that allows oil to drip back down into the crank & bearing from the cylinder walls . Capillary action to a much lesser degree I imagine also . However , that's all I can further contribute brother on the oil migration potential , within a 2T Premix engine . P.S. Oil Injected systems also inject directly to the small & big end bearings or directly into the intake runner to be aspirated into the fuel charge , although not within saws that iam currently aware ?


One hopes the oil doesn't vaporize in the crankcase. If it does its because the engine is running on the edge of failure. You can visualize this by inspecting the underside of the piston crown for "death ash".


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## North by Northwest (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> One hopes the oil doesn't vaporize in the crankcase. If it does its because the engine is running on the edge of failure. You can visualize this by inspecting the underside of the piston crown for "death ash".


No , i meant when it meets the intense heat of combustion , & falls out of solution , (wetting metal surfaces) it would wet the wrist pin & piston skirt & ring assembly . I would not wish the crankcase being that hot & flashing lol . What other migration potential do you recognize ? lol.


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## Automender (Nov 12, 2022)

Seems by going by the color of the smoke, which in my case is blue and not black soot, the smoke is caused by unburned oil. If you soak a rag in gas and light it it produces black smoke. I know that the 2.6 oz of oil in a gallon of gas doesn't build up in the crankcase and migrates to the cylinder so it is carried by the mixture of air and fuel. If you think about it the oil particles are dragged by air and gas vapor. I suppose one can figure out the heavier density gas, that being either air or gasoline will carry more oil. By volume with a 15 to one ratio of air to gas mix the air moves more oil than gas. Basically it works like the refrigerant and oil movement in a AC unit.


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## link (Nov 12, 2022)

40:1, because it is a round figure. And very safe indeed.


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## ApePilot (Nov 14, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I did not hear back on your numbers brother , however recently woods ported a quad port 357 xp . I ran with a conservative .018 squish , 141 duration & 13.5 deg. of blowdown & achieved a 500+ rpm gain over stock with a minor muffler mod & goobs of low & midrange torgue . The overall compression with the crank stuffers wa. pretty well unaffected . I still run 91 octane with Saber @ 44:1 . Very strong firewood saw. P.S. I usually use a 10 deg. raduis on all chamfers including the transfers .


Sorry NNW, been busy trying to get my new (stupid) P320 XTen running right. Mags keep jamming-up with 200 gr HC. Sig sucks.
Anyway, the 3120xp:
Exhaust opening = 98 deg ATDC, duration = 164 deg.
Intake duration = 135.7 deg
And oops, looking at my spreadsheet on the engine, squish is actually 0.580mm = 0.0228" (still kinda tight for the compression and squish-band width of 9.5mm)
I've been thinking of getting it just a hair tighter.... but calcs indicate that it's already too tight. No indication of detonation with the fuel being used, though.
Blowdown is just a hair over 22 degrees.
Transfer duration is 120 deg.
Nothing too radical, though I don't know if I want to try 93 octane as before. Seems to run smoother and harder on 100LL for the time being. And Aviation fuel is no more expensive than the available non-alcohol 93 pump gas around here.
I've been thinking of increasing intake duration to around 140 - 142 deg.
The head, piston deck, and intake and exhaust ports have had the 350 deg baked Cerakote Piston-Coat applied and it does seem to help with keeping the heat inside the combustion chamber rather than getting the piston undersides and head too hot.
I use pretty cool plugs -- B10HS. 

Funny (not), I have the engine apart again, checking things out. I purchased an OEM piston last year to put on the shelf for a snowy day. I just weighed it and it's a whole 2.3g lighter than my messaged and lightened OEM piston that I had been running. WT....? Measured it all over and found some of the webs are slightly thinner, but the big surprise was some minute cracks in the casting right at the window/skirt corners just under the lower ring, on two sides. Bugger. Good luck exchanging that piece of junk AL.

The OEM rings (junk) that I had in there lasted maybe 1.5 hrs. Initial gap was something like 0.445mm, should have been closer to 0.21mm. I ran them anyway because I couldn't find any G15H cabers at the time. Everyone was selling those F-Cast rings.

The thing ran really powerful for about half hour straight out of the shop (typical break-in stuff, short bursts up to roughly 11000rpms). Then the rpm's started slowing down roughly 200-300 rpm's lower (tinytach). No big deal though. After 1.5 hrs, took the pipe off and saw minute scratches on the cylinder on the intake side. Fug!
Took the top off and found minute scratching on the exhaust side too. Double fug! Ring gap grew to 0.650mm on both rings! Max-gap replacement time should be around 0.60mm. These husqvarna OEM rings suck. They're lazered 'KO B8' for Komarov s.r.o. The circumferential exterior edges of the rings looked a bit chipped in some places, but not really localized to the ports. Initially the edges were quite sharp, not chamfered. 
Finally got some G15H cabers in yesterday. Nicely chamfered edges. Gaps acceptable at 0.253mm.
Crankcase has been thoroughly flushed, all bearings look and feel good, seals are 1.5hrs old, so going to slap on the rings and see how she goes. Again.
Anyone know where I can find a Meteor piston for the 3120, or should I just get another OEM at inflated cost?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 15, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> Sorry NNW, been busy trying to get my new (stupid) P320 XTen running right. Mags keep jamming-up with 200 gr HC. Sig sucks.
> Anyway, the 3120xp:
> Exhaust opening = 98 deg ATDC, duration = 164 deg.
> Intake duration = 135.7 deg
> ...


Impressive amount of work brother , I checked my notes Exh ATDC 103 Deg. Duration 141 deg. Transfer ATDC 123 deg. Blow down 13.5 deg. Int. ABDC 106 Duration 143 deg. Even with the conservative squish it is very responsive in the cut . I went with a Meteor Piston with Caber rings from Saws again . Com . As previously mentioned I run 91 octane Sunoco Premium , I trialed Ultra 93 but did not perceive any performance or runibility gains . I fabricated the muffler mod of the stock muffler also , with a deflector to a 3/8" exhaust stub aka " Ironhorse clone " . If anything , I perhaps should have popped another $10 for a Dukes Moly coated piston . Next time perhaps lol .


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## ApePilot (Nov 15, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Impressive amount of work brother , I checked my notes Exh ATDC 103 Deg. Duration 141 deg. Transfer ATDC 123 deg. Blow down 13.5 deg. Int. ABDC 106 Duration 143 deg. Even with the conservative squish it is very responsive in the cut . I went with a Meteor Piston with Caber rings from Saws again . Com . As previously mentioned I run 91 octane Sunoco Premium , I trialed Ultra 93 but did not perceive any performance or runibility gains . I fabricated the muffler mod of the stock muffler also , with a deflector to a 3/8" exhaust stub aka " Ironhorse clone " . If anything , I perhaps should have popped another $10 for a Dukes Moly coated piston . Next time perhaps lol .


Interesting that you mentioned 'stuffers.' I've been concentrating on other parts of the engine, but have reserved increasing the primary compression figures (crankcase compression) for miserable rainy winter days.
How did you fabricate the stuffers and how did you secure them in place? Did you add any additional weight (tungsten?) to the lobes to help balance the extra weight of the stuffers? Also, did you notice any more torque at higher RPMs due to the higher compression ratios? What kind of ratis did you start with, and what did you end up with? I'm guessing that any small gains would be hard to feel in sawing firewood, but in a saw-mill rig it might be more apparent.
What was your intake duration before your porting? What kind of improvement did you see with the 143 deg duration? More higher-rpm torque?
Thanks NNW!
-doug


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## North by Northwest (Nov 15, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> Interesting that you mentioned 'stuffers.' I've been concentrating on other parts of the engine, but have reserved increasing the primary compression figures (crankcase compression) for miserable rainy winter days.
> How did you fabricate the stuffers and how did you secure them in place? Did you add any additional weight (tungsten?) to the lobes to help balance the extra weight of the stuffers? Also, did you notice any more torque at higher RPMs due to the higher compression ratios? What kind of ratis did you start with, and what did you end up with? I'm guessing that any small gains would be hard to feel in sawing firewood, but in a saw-mill rig it might be more apparent.
> What was your intake duration before your porting? What kind of improvement did you see with the 143 deg duration? More higher-rpm torque?
> Thanks NNW!
> -doug


It's a 357 xp Doug , quad ports & factory stuffers .It had plenty of grunt from the factory , mid range was its weakness as a stock 57 cc saw . It has decent high rpm horsepower as a xp series saw . I will send you a pm for numbers & compression spec's , so as not to bore the other folks on the oil thread brother !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 15, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> No , i meant when it meets the intense heat of combustion , & falls out of solution , (wetting metal surfaces) it would wet the wrist pin & piston skirt & ring assembly . I would not wish the crankcase being that hot & flashing lol . What other migration potential do you recognize ? lol.


Ben , you did not enlighten us further to your to your other contributing potential for oil migration within a premix 2T engine ? Please elaborate further within the best explanation of this rational brother !


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## skeet88 (Nov 15, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> It's a 357 xp Doug , quad ports & factory stuffers .It had plenty of grunt from the factory , mid range was its weakness as a stock 57 cc saw . It has decent high rpm horsepower as a xp series saw . I will send you a pm for numbers & compression spec's , so as not to bore the other folks on the oil thread brother !


What oil thread ? This thing has run off the tracks at least a dozen times! All good though I am learning something new every day. Y’all Be Good!


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## thenne1713 (Nov 16, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> Sorry NNW, been busy trying to get my new (stupid) P320 XTen running right. Mags keep jamming-up with 200 gr HC. Sig sucks.
> Anyway, the 3120xp:
> Exhaust opening = 98 deg ATDC, duration = 164 deg.
> Intake duration = 135.7 deg
> ...


re: scratches, did you pull air filter and see if fines/ debris getting past the filter?


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## ApePilot (Nov 16, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> re: scratches, did you pull air filter and see if fines/ debris getting past the filter?


I was stupid. I used a brand-new K&N filter. They're fine for keeping big gravel out of the carb, but anything than smaller than gravel flies right through like pollen through a screen door, like a c19 cyst through a face-diaper, etc, etc. I'll never ever use K&N filters of any kind again.

I flushed the crankcase with low-pressure kerosene propelled by a 12v diesel vane-pump, with the crankcase suspended upside-down while rotating the crank, pouring into a bucket with a bunch of rare-earth magnets taped on the bottom exterior surface of the white-plastic bucket. The alarming thing was there were some very minute ferrous particles caught by the magnets. At first I thought the rod and crank bearings were going south, but inspection revealed they were good. The way I have the carb (WB37) situated with the linkages and K&N pod filter, there could have been plenty of steel filings from the clutch and/or chain making their way easily through the K&N. At least that's what I hope; the alternative would mean $$$$. The K&N has big enough holes in it's gauze weave to see through, even when oiled.
If there were scratches above the transfers, I'd be worried about the bearings. No scratches are present above the transfers. Just very minute scratches above the exhaust and inlet ports, as well as some very small scratches on the inlet-side piston skirt. Hardly anything to miss sleep over. The piston deck looks fine as did the rings' surfaces.
The fuel filter is a new pleated paper filter designed for small aircraft engines; the fuel was fresh 100LL straight from the local airport contained in a new, thoroughly cleaned-out polyethylene fuel jug. So the filings were likely not from the fuel.

A little side-note: The diesel vane-pump was purchased at Car Quest. Made of chinesium. Also a pleated-paper pre-filter. After noting a visible quantity of extremely minute ferrous particles being collected by the magnets with only the kerosene cycled through the pump, I decided to put a big diesel spin-on filter after the pump. The first base and filter purchased at CarQuest had a supposed filter micron-rating of 10um particle size. Even with the kerosene being recycled through the pump system, there still were those super-minute particles. After a lot more research on the filter, I found Baldwin (the manufacturer) rated these at 20um @ 75% efficiency rather than what Carquest's verbiage indicated. I exchanged that base for another base (Baldwin FB46185) that would fit a Donaldson P551313 filter rated at 5um @ 99.9% efficiency. That's the filter most of the tractor-trailer and heavy equipment mechanics suggest using for a 1-14 thread-size base . That setup pretty much cleared up any remaining ferrous debris in the kerosene, and anything that was being shed by the chinese vane-pump. After success there, I re-flushed the crankcase with and found no more ferrous debris in the flushing.
So was the initially-detected ferrous debris really coming from the crankcase or was it coming from the chinese vane pump? Other than the super-fine ferrous powder, I did initially find a couple of larger particles, though quite small. Still, those larger particles could have been the pump breaking-in. Whatever. I think (hope) it's all good now. Lesson: Never use K&N!


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## link (Nov 16, 2022)

2,5% oil is plenty, because 2% is enough.


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## ApePilot (Nov 16, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> What oil thread ? This thing has run off the tracks at least a dozen times! All good though I am learning something new every day. Y’all Be Good!


yup. Me too. I've found most of my questions about 2Ts here at ArboristSite, and much of the juicy info is hiding in the threads that aren't related to the juicies.


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## ApePilot (Nov 16, 2022)

link said:


> 2,5% oil is plenty, because 2% is enough.


Funny. I guess when all you operate are the small displacement engines at very light, intermittent load (firewood?), or you're putt-putt-putting about in the woods with your 2T bike, then yeah, 50:1 is ok. But dare try making that thing scream on continuous, high-torque operations and high heat and all of a sudden that 50:1 will be your bane. Especially air-cooled engines like most of us run.
IMEO (in my experienced opinion), the F/O mixture should reflect the load-factor at which you're most using the engine. Light to medium torque with intermittent use (firewood, brush-clearing, light weed whacker use, etc) could deal with 50:1, since while idling, the engine is pooling the excess oil in the bottom of the crankcase. But operations (milling, dirt-track racing, kart racing, etc) of high rpm at high torque for sustained periods of time (high heat build-up, no chance of oil pooling) calls for more and higher-quality lubrication.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 16, 2022)

I have an 056 Mag II that never came with anything but a metal screen for an air filter. Lot of older Stilhs did. No problem, sawdust is not particularly abrasive. Would not try it with a cut off saw.

50 to 1 with new generation lubricants is just fine for anything other than milling. Unless you are just stupid, which is entirely possible.


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## bwalker (Nov 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ben , you did not enlighten us further to your to your other contributing potential for oil migration within a premix 2T engine ? Please elaborate further within the best explanation of this rational brother !


Things like crank case volume, intake port timing, tuned pipe tuning, transfer port size and orientation.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Things like crank case volume, intake port timing, tuned pipe tuning, transfer port size and orientation.


Absolutely Ben , the volumetric efficiency of the crankcase along with enhanced scavenging effects & better flow due to optimal transfer sizing & positioning , will most definitely effect the migration potential . I agree , thanks for the input brother !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 16, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> Funny. I guess when all you operate are the small displacement engines at very light, intermittent load (firewood?), or you're putt-putt-putting about in the woods with your 2T bike, then yeah, 50:1 is ok. But dare try making that thing scream on continuous, high-torque operations and high heat and all of a sudden that 50:1 will be your bane. Especially air-cooled engines like most of us run.
> IMEO (in my experienced opinion), the F/O mixture should reflect the load-factor at which you're most using the engine. Light to medium torque with intermittent use (firewood, brush-clearing, light weed whacker use, etc) could deal with 50:1, since while idling, the engine is pooling the excess oil in the bottom of the crankcase. But operations (milling, dirt-track racing, kart racing, etc) of high rpm at high torque for sustained periods of time (high heat build-up, no chance of oil pooling) calls for more and higher-quality lubrication.


I agree Doug , I have always stated that oil ratio in combination with proper tuning of the saw to the application is vital to protecting your investment . I also agree with the analogy which that not only does more oil better seal the rings for optimal compression (proven fact) . But selecting a oil with proper additive packages , can also provide a cleaner & more efficient running engine with better overall performance also !


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 16, 2022)

I would be simply curious if any of you have ever lost a saw doing anything other than milling. Or, are you just babbling ?

I have run all kinds of saws for 50 years and work on them for a living. I go by the manufacturers recommendations.

Do you not find it even a little curious that they just run and run for me and not for you.

Like maybe you have something else going on ?


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## sean donato (Nov 16, 2022)

link said:


> 2,5% oil is plenty, because 2% is enough.


My nitro engines run a minimum of 10% oil. Guess thats too much by your standards.


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## Kel71 (Nov 17, 2022)

If you have 89 octane gas and mix it at 50:1, 40:1, and 32:1. What is your octane
with the oil mix?
50:1 ?
40:1 ?
32:1 ?


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## sean donato (Nov 17, 2022)

Quality oil shouldn't effect octane rating much is at all.


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## rogue60 (Nov 17, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I would be simply curious if any of you have ever lost a saw doing anything other than milling. Or, are you just babbling ?
> 
> I have run all kinds of saws for 50 years and work on them for a living. I go by the manufacturers recommendations.
> 
> ...


Really that's interesting so you work on saws for a living but how/why if the manufacturers recommendations are so good?
I find it amazing a "mechanic" could have such a narrow mind and such little understanding of oil and the benefits of adding more than what the "manufacturer recommendations" and that being 50:1 and tuned lean from the factory more than often now day's.
But I guess if one never strays from what the manufacturer recommends one would never know or learn anything more than what the manufacturer recommends. ignorance is bliss..


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 17, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Really that's interesting so you work on saws for a living but how/why if the manufacturers recommendations are so good?
> I find it amazing a "mechanic" could have such a narrow mind and such little understanding of oil and the benefits of adding more than what the "manufacturer recommendations" and that being 50:1 and tuned learn from the factory more than often now day's.
> But I guess if one never strays from what the manufacturer recommends one would never know or learn anything more than what the manufacturer recommends ignorance is bliss..



I have worked on a ridiculous number of pieces of equipment, maybe 30% chainsaws, the rest trimmers, blowers, pole saws, etc.
The majority are simple flooded, set so long the carb has a bugger in it, dropped out of a tree, run over, ignition gone bad, straight gassed. Primer has a hole in it.That type of thing. There are occasional internal defects, ciclips come out. Had two stacked on top of each other a couple of weeks ago. That type of thing. Warranty repairs.

The only oil related issues I see is they forgot to put any in it.

That is the real world .


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 17, 2022)

You're both probably right.

ZJ has said he mostly works on homeowner stuff, if a logger was a part of the group then he had no clue. For almost all homeowners, they will never rack up 250 hours on their saw. If you have a suburban lot and don't heat with wood, you probably don't put 20 minutes per year on your chainsaw. If you do heat with wood, you probably still don't put 5 hours per year on your chainsaw. At 5 hours per year, it would take a person 50 years to rack up 250 hours. 100:1 ratios may well make the saw last just fine at this usage rate. Not ideal, but the homeowner will still never wear the saw out. This backs up ZJ's claims.

We also have people here on the site who are pro fallers and loggers, and will put 250 hours on their saw in a couple months. They will legitimately wear a saw down to low compression in a year or two, plus we have the people who work on these faller's saws. They may well agree, 50:1 isn't enough oil to make the bearings last until the rings are worn and compression is low. This backs up the pro's claims.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 17, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> You're both probably right.
> 
> ZJ has said he mostly works on homeowner stuff, if a logger was a part of the group then he had no clue. For almost all homeowners, they will never rack up 250 hours on their saw. If you have a suburban lot and don't heat with wood, you probably don't put 20 minutes per year on your chainsaw. If you do heat with wood, you probably still don't put 5 hours per year on your chainsaw. At 5 hours per year, it would take a person 50 years to rack up 250 hours. 100:1 ratios may well make the saw last just fine at this usage rate. Not ideal, but the homeowner will still never wear the saw out. This backs up ZJ's claims.
> 
> We also have people here on the site who are pro fallers and loggers, and will put 250 hours on the you their saw in a couple months. They will legitimately wear a saw down to low compression in a year or two, plus we have the people who work on these faller's saws. They may well agree, 50:1 isn't enough oil to make the bearings last until the rings are worn and compression is low. This backs up the pro's claims.


You actually put some thought into this response . Cudo's I agree with pretty well everything you have indicated . However the professional production felling can actually wear out a saw today within a few yrs even with quality oil at 32:1 lol.


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## Lawless (Nov 17, 2022)

While I have run 2 cycle equipment hard (in business) I haven’t had any engine failure. I have a Stihl trimmer with who the heck knows how many hours, over 10 years old and was used almost daily for hours. I sold both my businesses when we “retired” and moved to this farm permanently but I still use that trimmer. Stihl orange was what I used for years.

Red Armor is my oil since the summer and I bought the 4 gallon Amazon deal so it’ll be my oil a long time 

All that said, you guys have convinced me to move to 40:1 from 50:1.

A little more insurance for a >$1000 saw is a good thing…..and an old trimmer too.


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## huskihl (Nov 17, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> You're both probably right.
> 
> ZJ has said he mostly works on homeowner stuff, if a logger was a part of the group then he had no clue. For almost all homeowners, they will never rack up 250 hours on their saw. If you have a suburban lot and don't heat with wood, you probably don't put 20 minutes per year on your chainsaw. If you do heat with wood, you probably still don't put 5 hours per year on your chainsaw. At 5 hours per year, it would take a person 50 years to rack up 250 hours. 100:1 ratios may well make the saw last just fine at this usage rate. Not ideal, but the homeowner will still never wear the saw out. This backs up ZJ's claims.
> 
> We also have people here on the site who are pro fallers and loggers, and will put 250 hours on their saw in a couple months. They will legitimately wear a saw down to low compression in a year or two, plus we have the people who work on these faller's saws. They may well agree, 50:1 isn't enough oil to make the bearings last until the rings are worn and compression is low. This backs up the pro's claims.


This is spot on


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## thenne1713 (Nov 17, 2022)

Kel71 said:


> If you have 89 octane gas and mix it at 50:1, 40:1, and 32:1. What is your octane
> with the oil mix?
> 50:1 ?
> 40:1 ?
> 32:1 ?


I say 89 octane, I have never read anyone say oil mix changes octane?


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## Kel71 (Nov 17, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> I say 89 octane, I have never read anyone say oil mix changes octane?



paragraph 15 - One of the things you should do - https://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/twostroke-fuel-ratios-premix-myth-vs-reality-54169.html


I tried to find the octane number for 2 stroke oil, but couldn't find anything.


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> I say 89 octane, I have never read anyone say oil mix changes octane?


Low quality oil can do that. Some oils actually can improve it.
In a low compression engine like a saw it doesn't matter much at all.


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

Kel71 said:


> paragraph 15 - One of the things you should do - https://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/twostroke-fuel-ratios-premix-myth-vs-reality-54169.html
> 
> 
> I tried to find the octane number for 2 stroke oil, but couldn't find anything.


I don't buy that statement at all.


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## Hermio (Nov 18, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Really that's interesting so you work on saws for a living but how/why if the manufacturers recommendations are so good?
> I find it amazing a "mechanic" could have such a narrow mind and such little understanding of oil and the benefits of adding more than what the "manufacturer recommendations" and that being 50:1 and tuned lean from the factory more than often now day's.
> But I guess if one never strays from what the manufacturer recommends one would never know or learn anything more than what the manufacturer recommends. ignorance is bliss..


Do you really think the users know more than the manufacturers?


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 18, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Do you really think the users know more than the manufacturers?



You're assuming the goals of the manufacturers are the same as the goals of the users. They frequently are not.


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## sean donato (Nov 18, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> You're assuming the goals of the manufacturers are the same as the goals of the users. They frequently are not.


They rarely are the same. Most mfg make things to work for a 5 to 8 year period. (if its even that long anymore.) Then in the case of saws they have to meet emissions, and be at a certain price point. Now where does the consumer fit into this? They don't. Just the long and short of it.


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## ApePilot (Nov 18, 2022)

sean donato said:


> They rarely are the same. Most mfg make things to work for a 5 to 8 year period. (if its even that long anymore.) Then in the case of saws they have to meet emissions, and be at a certain price point. Now where does the consumer fit into this? They don't. Just the long and short of it.


Manufacturers must adhere to the ridiculous EPA mandates that continuously become more and more stringent. They do what they can to provide a useful engine/tool for the intended purpose, but have to dance around all the bogus EPAs restrictions. Hence, 50:1 F/O mix _recommendations_. If you talk to most ANY pro logger who uses the larger saws, he will tell you that everyone uses between 20:1 to 32:1, depending on the saw. Typically, the bigger saws are run harder for longer periods of time and thus become much hotter than the smaller saws. Extra lubrication is required because the crankcase does not collect the 'excess' oil like a smaller saw being used for cutting firewood that runs at load intermittently.
Sure, for you F/O _recommendation_-stickler people playing around with your small-displacement yard tools in your own small properties perhaps one or three hours per month on average, 50:1 is likely almost adequate and costs less in oil (artificial savings). But if you're running those saws/tools eight hours a day, five to six days a week, not only are you expending a hell of a lot more calories and eating far more protein than the average person, but you're also using a lower F/O ratio to extend the life of that hard-working saw/tool.
Even a good-sized blower that is running for hours on end requires a lower F/O ratio. Some people here believe the bigger-displacement blowers are low-load tools. Think again. They're running at around 9800-10500 rpm continuously for hours on end when blowing a substantial amount of leaves in the autumn. At least on my farm they are.
So, believing that the manufacturers are recommending the best F/O ratio for these 2T tools is pretty darn preposterous when considering all the variables.


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## sean donato (Nov 18, 2022)

ApePilot said:


> Manufacturers must adhere to the ridiculous EPA mandates that continuously become more and more stringent. They do what they can to provide a useful engine/tool for the intended purpose, but have to dance around all the bogus EPAs restrictions. Hence, 50:1 F/O mix _recommendations_. If you talk to most ANY pro logger who uses the larger saws, he will tell you that everyone uses between 20:1 to 32:1, depending on the saw. Typically, the bigger saws are run harder for longer periods of time and thus become much hotter than the smaller saws. Extra lubrication is required because the crankcase does not collect the 'excess' oil like a smaller saw being used for cutting firewood that runs at load intermittently.
> Sure, for you F/O _recommendation_-stickler people playing around with your small-displacement yard tools in your own small properties perhaps one or three hours per month on average, 50:1 is likely almost adequate and costs less in oil (artificial savings). But if you're running those saws/tools eight hours a day, five to six days a week, not only are you expending a hell of a lot more calories and eating far more protein than the average person, but you're also using a lower F/O ratio to extend the life of that hard-working saw/tool.
> Even a good-sized blower that is running for hours on end requires a lower F/O ratio. Some people here believe the bigger-displacement blowers are low-load tools. Think again. They're running at around 9800-10500 rpm continuously for hours on end when blowing a substantial amount of leaves in the autumn. At least on my farm they are.
> So, believing that the manufacturers are recommending the best F/O ratio is pretty darn preposterous when considering all the variables.


So what exactly was it that my short post that was not directed at you have to do with your rant? I'll even go a step farther to say, I that I don't enjoy reading your condescending posts either. Assuming we're all idiots is no way to articulate a point, and believe it or not many of us know plenty about engines. So do everyone a favor and drop the crap attitude.


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## rogue60 (Nov 18, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Do you really think the users know more than the manufacturers?


You need to have more confidence in yourself that's a terrible attitude to have.
What a boring world we would live in if everyone only did what the manufacturers recommend. There would be no motor sports nothing. So do you think the guys that came back from ww2 and started modifying engines and building hot rods gave two f's what the manufacturer recommends lol
Manufacturers produce release dud faulty products all the time the enthusiasts among us usually come up with a fix even before the the manufacturers are aware of the problem. 

Manuals and recommendations are for the guys that pay a dealer to "service" their chainsaw lol


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 18, 2022)

What is fun is working on stuff where they should have really paid the dealer to service before they screwed with it.


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## rogue60 (Nov 18, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I have worked on a ridiculous number of pieces of equipment, maybe 30% chainsaws, the rest trimmers, blowers, pole saws, etc.
> The majority are simple flooded, set so long the carb has a bugger in it, dropped out of a tree, run over, ignition gone bad, straight gassed. Primer has a hole in it.That type of thing. There are occasional internal defects, ciclips come out. Had two stacked on top of each other a couple of weeks ago. That type of thing. Warranty repairs.
> 
> The only oil related issues I see is they forgot to put any in it.
> ...


You left out cleaning blocked spark arresters.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 18, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> You left out cleaning blocked spark arresters.


I did as a matter of fact. A few of those every day depending on the time of year.


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Do you really think the users know more than the manufacturers?


Do you really think OEMs make decisions like this based on what's best for the machine?


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I did as a matter of fact. A few of those every day depending on the time of year.


I've never seen one plugged on my stuff...


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> What is fun is working on stuff where they should have really paid the dealer to service before they screwed with it.


I don't know how it's possible to not figure out O P E. It's dead simple!
Dealers techs are some of the most clueless when it comes to these machines..


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I don't know how it's possible to not figure out O P E. It's dead simple!
> Dealers techs are some of the most clueless when it comes to these machines..



Yep. I could tell you were a genius from the start.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I've never seen one plugged on my stuff...



Actually, I think you are some kid in his mom's basement and lives some curious chainsaw life vicariously on an internet forum.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 18, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Actually, I think you are some kid in his mom's basement and lives some curious chainsaw life vicariously on an internet forum.



When you run out of plausible rhetoric- head for the insult pile!


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 18, 2022)

My neighbor bought a Stihl years ago - can't remember the model, but he ran Amsoil Saber at 80:1, and cut 10 acres of overgrown MA woods with that one saw, all day every day for a few years. That's felling, limbing - everything. I was ordering him sets of 5 chains every 4 months for quite some time, and he sharpens by hand, too. Saw still runs great. Has NEVER been apart for any decarbonizing, or fuel issues.

That said, there isn't an oil on the planet I'd run at 80 or 100:1, EXCEPT Saber. I run it in my paramotor at 66:1, with head temps nudging 400° every time I climb out in the summer. 190cc, air cooled. Got almost 40 hours on it so far with zero signs of engine or crank wear.





View attachment IMG_4108.mov


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Yep. I could tell you were a genius from the start.


You saying a damn chainsaw is a complex device?


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Actually, I think you are some kid in his mom's basement and lives some curious chainsaw life vicariously on an internet forum.


If we are slinging insults. I'm thinking your a retard that overestimates his ability..
There is no reason to plug a screen up and in fact if you can tune a saw they litteraly will not plug up..


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## sean donato (Nov 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You saying a damn chainsawnisna complex device?


I think he just had a complex....


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## bwalker (Nov 18, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> My neighbor bought a Stihl years ago - can't remember the model, but he ran Amsoil Saber at 80:1, and cut 10 acres of overgrown MA woods with that one saw, all day every day for a few years. That's felling, limbing - everything. I was ordering him sets of 5 chains every 4 months for quite some time, and he sharpens by hand, too. Saw still runs great. Has NEVER been apart for any decarbonizing, or fuel issues.
> 
> That said, there isn't an oil on the planet I'd run at 80 or 100:1, EXCEPT Saber. I run it in my paramotor at 66:1, with head temps nudging 400° every time I climb out in the summer. 190cc, air cooled. Got almost 40 hours on it so far with zero signs of engine or crank wear.
> 
> ...


You find your making max power at that CHT? Seems high, but not dangerously high.
When Inwas tuning sleds I used EGT instead of CHT as the response time is quicker.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> When you run out of plausible rhetoric- head for the insult pile!




If your neighbor or whoever comes over with a trimmer or blower with a complaint that it won't rev up check the muffler screen FIRST...

It will save you a lot of tail chasing.

The fact that Walker is not aware of that tells me what I need to know about what he knows.
I guess he has never used or worked on anything but a chain saw. Although I have seen them stopped up it is very uncommon. Has to do with how much they are idled.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If we are slinging insults. I'm thinking your a retard that overestimates his ability..
> There is no reason to plug a screen up and in fact if you can tune a saw they litteraly will not plug up..


Not sure where you got chainsaw out of any of that, or that I ever worked on anything that I tuned or had ever even seen before.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

* AS Supporting Member*
Waiting for customers pick up Tuesday. Although you can't see all the Terminex blowers with the tanks to the left.


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## Hermio (Nov 19, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> You need to have more confidence in yourself that's a terrible attitude to have.
> What a boring world we would live in if everyone only did what the manufacturers recommend. There would be no motor sports nothing. So do you think the guys that came back from ww2 and started modifying engines and building hot rods gave two f's what the manufacturer recommends lol
> Manufacturers produce release dud faulty products all the time the enthusiasts among us usually come up with a fix even before the the manufacturers are aware of the problem.
> 
> Manuals and recommendations are for the guys that pay a dealer to "service" their chainsaw lol


I have plenty of confidence in myself. But though I am a Professional Engineer who has authored more than 3 dozen technical articles and two technical books and am considered an expert in my field, I realize that I do not know everything, not even in my specialty. I also have confidence that both the equipment OEMs and the major oil manufacturers know more about lubrication than the end user does. While it is true that the manufacturer may not have the same goals as the end user, at least they are more likely to know what they are doing. And I have seen some of the test reports on lubrication conducted by government test institutes. Interestingly, Amsoil Saber meets the government standards at any ratio from 16:1 to 100:1. Will more oil deliver better results? I don't know. But some users have used 100:1 in all their equipment, regardless of age, for over 20 years. While I will probably continue to use 50:1, there is a downside to using really rich oil ratios such as 25 or 32: plugging the spark screen with carbon and sludge, for example, or increased carbon deposits within the engine. While I am not running my saw day in and day out (I just cut firewood for personal use and some TSI work), when I am running it to buck firewood, I am pretty much running it continuously at full power except when I stop to refuel. That means it will get as hot as it is ever going to get. My present saw is a Stihl MS500i. It will buck a bit more than a cord per hour. Previously I used a MS441C.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 19, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> If your neighbor or whoever comes over with a trimmer or blower with a complaint that it won't rev up check the muffler screen FIRST...
> 
> It will save you a lot of tail chasing.
> 
> ...



Too late now, you already picked the scab off the personal insult boil and lowered your credibility rating.


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## bwalker (Nov 19, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> If your neighbor or whoever comes over with a trimmer or blower with a complaint that it won't rev up check the muffler screen FIRST...
> 
> It will save you a lot of tail chasing.
> 
> ...


Well, we have established you have zero reading comprehension..
I said I have never had a screen plug up...ever...and inuse ratios containing more oil than 50:1.


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## bwalker (Nov 19, 2022)

Hermio said:


> I have plenty of confidence in myself. But though I am a Professional Engineer who has authored more than 3 dozen technical articles and two technical books and am considered an expert in my field, I realize that I do not know everything, not even in my specialty. I also have confidence that both the equipment OEMs and the major oil manufacturers know more about lubrication than the end user does. While it is true that the manufacturer may not have the same goals as the end user, at least they are more likely to know what they are doing. And I have seen some of the test reports on lubrication conducted by government test institutes. Interestingly, Amsoil Saber meets the government standards at any ratio from 16:1 to 100:1. Will more oil deliver better results? I don't know. But some users have used 100:1 in all their equipment, regardless of age, for over 20 years. While I will probably continue to use 50:1, there is a downside to using really rich oil ratios such as 25 or 32: plugging the spark screen with carbon and sludge, for example, or increased carbon deposits within the engine. While I am not running my saw day in and day out (I just cut firewood for personal use and some TSI work), when I am running it to buck firewood, I am pretty much running it continuously at full power except when I stop to refuel. That means it will get as hot as it is ever going to get. My present saw is a Stihl MS500i. It will buck a bit more than a cord per hour. Previously I used a MS441C.


What sort of engineer and what state is your PE license in?
There are no government standards on two cycle oil..
You do realise that comprises must be made in regards to things like oil ratios. This done for a variety of reasons and if you were an engineer in industry you would know this.
As for the last third of your post. It's rubbish. Typicaly in my expiereance engineers refrain from making blanket statements like you have made. Its pretty you don't have a clue what your talking about so the again I will ask. What sort of engineer are you?


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> Too late now, you already picked the scab off the personal insult boil and lowered your credibility rating.


LOL, I bet you are really hurt.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

Poor old BWalker. Must be tough keeping ahead of the engineers in the industry.

Like it is some of his business what kind of engineer Hermio is to start with.

Ever notice how they pick up little cheer leaders. Sort of like Jim Jones I suppose.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 19, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> LOL, I bet you are really hurt.



Not at all- your rating was already pretty low.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> Not at all- your rating was already pretty low.


I see sarcasm is not your strong point either.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 19, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I see sarcasm is not your strong point either.



I have plenty of strong points thanks- one of them is not stooping to school yard type bickering.


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## Chevboy0167 (Nov 19, 2022)

I do love a good oil thread... LOL


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 19, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> I have plenty of strong points thanks- one of them is not stooping to school yard type bickering.



Well , it ends up that way often. Did you learn anything from anybody on the thread ?

I actually did. Never knew that Husqvarna recommended 33 to 1 in larger displacement saws.

And, if they recommend it that is what I would do. Which was my point from the start.


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## bwalker (Nov 19, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Poor old BWalker. Must be tough keeping ahead of the engineers in the industry.
> 
> Like it is some of his business what kind of engineer Hermio is to start with.
> 
> Ever notice how they pick up little cheer leaders. Sort of like Jim Jones I suppose.


If your going to throw a title around you should probably mention what type of engineer you are. It's very germain tonwhat we are talking about.


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## KASH (Nov 20, 2022)

I do know one thing for certain no matter what brand of oil or what mix ratio the paramotor has in its tank I will never leave the ground in one.
Kash


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If your going to throw a title around you should probably mention what type of engineer you are. It's very germain tonwhat we are talking about.


Well, I have a degree in Biology from UNC 1976. So, I worked as a manufacturers rep in the electrical industry 27 years or thereabouts, like that had anything to do with Biology. I retired in 2004 . An evil person brought me a pick up truck load of Stihl stuff that the customer had abandoned for whatever reason. I like messing with it because of some insanity.

I know enough to know what I don't know and I don't know what the blend is in any of the 2 cycle oils compared to any other 2 cycle oil.

So, I do what the engineers who blend the oil and make the saws say to do.

Makes perfect sense to me.


BTW, I work from 7 to about 2 on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Something to do.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If your going to throw a title around you should probably mention what type of engineer you are. It's very germain tonwhat we are talking about.


 On a big tangent, I hunted in Montana most years for about 30 years. On White Tail Creek where it runs in to the Dearborn. Between Biggs and Headquarters up the North Fork of The Sun River, and on Cox Creek above the Flat Head on the west side of the divide. 

I remember the first time I road a horse around Gibson Reservoir I was scared to death, look down past your left foot at empty air.

I envy you.


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## Hermio (Nov 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What sort of engineer and what state is your PE license in?
> There are no government standards on two cycle oil..
> You do realise that comprises must be made in regards to things like oil ratios. This done for a variety of reasons and if you were an engineer in industry you would know this.
> As for the last third of your post. It's rubbish. Typicaly in my expiereance engineers refrain from making blanket statements like you have made. Its pretty you don't have a clue what your talking about so the again I will ask. What sort of engineer are you?


I did not make any blanket statements. I stated principles and some of my own experience. My specialty is fluid mechanics. As such, I do not claim to be an expert on chainsaws or lubrication. What I do claim is an understanding that there is such a thing as too much oil, for the reasons I have stated. If that were not so, why not just run 2:1 or even 100% oil? I also claim that end users do not have the wherewithal to actually make quantitative measurements of the results of different oil ratios. To do so scientifically and objectively, would require, as a minimum, the following principles to be carried out: 1) Several identical saws should be tested for each oil ratio. 2) Each saw should be run under identical conditions. This would probably mean on a controlled dynamometer, rather than actual sawing, as sawing is too variable. The same gasoline should be used in all testing also 3) Power output should be measured for each ratio, assuming the saw is properly tuned for that ratio. (MS500i excepted. It does so automatically via its fuel injection system). 4) At each oil ratio, the saw should be taken apart and inspected for wear periodically. I would suggest at 10, 50, 100, 200 and 500 hours of operation. 5) The previous test sequences would need to be done for each specific two-cycle engine oil. Only then could someone really figure out what the optimum ratio is. I would bet no user on this forum has done such tests. I suspect at least some of the saw manufacturers and oil manufacturers have done some of the tests described. They might not have done all of them. As for what kind of engineer I am or where I am registered, it is not really relevant to this discussion, as I do not claim specific expertise in saws or lubrication, but the engineering principles I have espoused are general to any industry or product. It is called scientific testing, and it is beyond what any reasonable end user can do. That is why I tend to trust certain companies, tempered by user experience. (I watch a lot of Project Farm videos also!). But, to make you happy, I happen to be a PE in Ohio. However, I consult all over the world. Now I have a suggestion for you: spell check and grammar check your posts. In you above post, the following errors were made: realise >realize; comprises>compromises; like>such as; Typicaly>typically; expierance>experienced; Its>It"s; your>you're.


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## bwalker (Nov 20, 2022)

Hermio said:


> I did not make any blanket statements. I stated principles and some of my own experience. My specialty is fluid mechanics. As such, I do not claim to be an expert on chainsaws or lubrication. What I do claim is an understanding that there is such a thing as too much oil, for the reasons I have stated. If that were not so, why not just run 2:1 or even 100% oil? I also claim that end users do not have the wherewithal to actually make quantitative measurements of the results of different oil ratios. To do so scientifically and objectively, would require, as a minimum, the following principles to be carried out: 1) Several identical saws should be tested for each oil ratio. 2) Each saw should be run under identical conditions. This would probably mean on a controlled dynamometer, rather than actual sawing, as sawing is too variable. The same gasoline should be used in all testing also 3) Power output should be measured for each ratio, assuming the saw is properly tuned for that ratio. (MS500i excepted. It does so automatically via its fuel injection system). 4) At each oil ratio, the saw should be taken apart and inspected for wear periodically. I would suggest at 10, 50, 100, 200 and 500 hours of operation. 5) The previous test sequences would need to be done for each specific two-cycle engine oil. Only then could someone really figure out what the optimum ratio is. I would bet no user on this forum has done such tests. I suspect at least some of the saw manufacturers and oil manufacturers have done some of the tests described. They might not have done all of them. As for what kind of engineer I am or where I am registered, it is not really relevant to this discussion, as I do not claim specific expertise in saws or lubrication, but the engineering principles I have espoused are general to any industry or product. It is called scientific testing, and it is beyond what any reasonable end user can do. That is why I tend to trust certain companies, tempered by user experience. (I watch a lot of Project Farm videos also!). But, to make you happy, I happen to be a PE in Ohio. However, I consult all over the world. Now I have a suggestion for you: spell check and grammar check your posts. In you above post, the following errors were made: realise >realize; comprises>compromises; like>such as; Typicaly>typically; expierance>experienced; Its>It"s; your>you're.


Boy, you sure danced around that... I think your full of it. But I will give you another chance. What engineering discipline is your degree in?
And this isn't English class, bud. I refuse to proof read a post on a internet forum.
And to be clear.. we aren't talking about a hypothetical point where there is too much oil. What we are talking aboutbis the fact that a bit more oil is beneficial for most saws.
As for your test. Its about as valid as Project farms garbage. You need alot more than 2-5 data points to achieve any sort of statistical validity. You should be aware of this given your allegedly an engineer.
You also absolutely made several blanket statements..


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 20, 2022)

Hermio said:


> I did not make any blanket statements. I stated principles and some of my own experience. My specialty is fluid mechanics. As such, I do not claim to be an expert on chainsaws or lubrication. What I do claim is an understanding that there is such a thing as too much oil, for the reasons I have stated. If that were not so, why not just run 2:1 or even 100% oil? I also claim that end users do not have the wherewithal to actually make quantitative measurements of the results of different oil ratios. To do so scientifically and objectively, would require, as a minimum, the following principles to be carried out: 1) Several identical saws should be tested for each oil ratio. 2) Each saw should be run under identical conditions. This would probably mean on a controlled dynamometer, rather than actual sawing, as sawing is too variable. The same gasoline should be used in all testing also 3) Power output should be measured for each ratio, assuming the saw is properly tuned for that ratio. (MS500i excepted. It does so automatically via its fuel injection system). 4) At each oil ratio, the saw should be taken apart and inspected for wear periodically. I would suggest at 10, 50, 100, 200 and 500 hours of operation. 5) The previous test sequences would need to be done for each specific two-cycle engine oil. Only then could someone really figure out what the optimum ratio is. I would bet no user on this forum has done such tests. I suspect at least some of the saw manufacturers and oil manufacturers have done some of the tests described. They might not have done all of them. As for what kind of engineer I am or where I am registered, it is not really relevant to this discussion, as I do not claim specific expertise in saws or lubrication, but the engineering principles I have espoused are general to any industry or product. It is called scientific testing, and it is beyond what any reasonable end user can do. That is why I tend to trust certain companies, tempered by user experience. (I watch a lot of Project Farm videos also!). But, to make you happy, I happen to be a PE in Ohio. However, I consult all over the world. Now I have a suggestion for you: spell check and grammar check your posts. In you above post, the following errors were made: realise >realize; comprises>compromises; like>such as; Typicaly>typically; expierance>experienced; Its>It"s; your>you're.



You're assuming that your suppositions and assumptions are as valid a form of evidence as the actual lived experience of the guys who run these saws day in and day out, and the experience of those who work on those saws which are run day in and day out.

This is not correct.


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## bwalker (Nov 20, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Well, I have a degree in Biology from UNC 1976. So, I worked as a manufacturers rep in the electrical industry 27 years or thereabouts, like that had anything to do with Biology. I retired in 2004 . An evil person brought me a pick up truck load of Stihl stuff that the customer had abandoned for whatever reason. I like messing with it because of some insanity.
> 
> I know enough to know what I don't know and I don't know what the blend is in any of the 2 cycle oils compared to any other 2 cycle oil.
> 
> ...


How do you know what the engineers think? I assure you engineers aren't writing the manuals.
I would also bet a box of donuts that Stihl or Husky also do bot have an engineer working on lubrication. I work for a oil company that makes two cycle oil and we don't have an engineer dedicated to that product.


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## bwalker (Nov 20, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> On a big tangent, I hunted in Montana most years for about 30 years. On White Tail Creek where it runs in to the Dearborn. Between Biggs and Headquarters up the North Fork of The Sun River, and on Cox Creek above the Flat Head on the west side of the divide.
> 
> I remember the first time I road a horse around Gibson Reservoir I was scared to death, look down past your left foot at empty air.
> 
> I envy you.


I moved here for a reason..
I've never hunted that country. It's beautiful, but the wolves, grizzlies and lions have really impacted the game populations in that area in the last few decades.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I moved here for a reason..
> I've never hunted that country. It's beautiful, but the wolves, grizzlies and lions have really impacted the game populations in that area in the last few decades.


 Yeah. If you read the published literature they try to tell you that it hasn't . I hunter there first in 1985. We bow hunted the North Fork of the Sun for about 10 years, before it became a thing. Once we learned how to go about it there was about 60 Elk divided in to smaller herds of 12 to 15 with one dominant herd bull and a few satellite bulls. Not particularly successful killing anything, but I have been within 100 yards of a lot of 325 plus herd bulls. And, I have called some satellite bulls in within 20 yards. Of course, trying to get a bow drawn at the range is pretty much impossible. But, that was never really the goal with me anyway.
The first thing they did was let it burn all to hell when they could have stopped it. Then some curious people in NY or LA who like the idea of a calf being eaten or a cow having her guts pulled out while still alive decided it was a good idea to put Canadian Grey Wolves in there. Bulls depleted after the rut driven so high that they simply starved to death rather than face the wolves. That kind of thing.

And, all driven by people who have never gone there and never will.


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## rogue60 (Nov 20, 2022)

There was an engineer on here not long ago telling us chinese cylinders are superior too OEM. He was asked how he came up with this delusional conclusion the answer was always I'm an engineer lol
Many a time in my life working machinery or whatever it is was that was a terrible design and as the frustration mounted I've wished I could have a little chat with the engineer that designed it lol


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## Lawless (Nov 20, 2022)

I have a friend that is a hydraulic engineer. Great at figuring out how to get a highway system to drain rainwater but is mystified at how electricity works. This doesn’t mean she’s not an engineer or is not smart.

There seems to be an unwillingness to agree to disagree. Falling to names and insults does exactly what?

Nobody has ever had their mind changed by internet arguments that I have ever seen


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## bwalker (Nov 20, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Yeah. If you read the published literature they try to tell you that it hasn't . I hunter there first in 1985. We bow hunted the North Fork of the Sun for about 10 years, before it became a thing. Once we learned how to go about it there was about 60 Elk divided in to smaller herds of 12 to 15 with one dominant herd bull and a few satellite bulls. Not particularly successful killing anything, but I have been within 100 yards of a lot of 325 plus herd bulls. And, I have called some satellite bulls in within 20 yards. Of course, trying to get a bow drawn at the range is pretty much impossible. But, that was never really the goal with me anyway.
> The first thing they did was let it burn all to hell when they could have stopped it. Then some curious people in NY or LA who like the idea of a calf being eaten or a cow having her guts pulled out while still alive decided it was a good idea to put Canadian Grey Wolves in there. Bulls depleted after the rut driven so high that they simply starved to death rather than face the wolves. That kind of thing.
> 
> And, all driven by people who have never gone there and never will.


People think it's the calves and cows that get hit hardest by wolves, but that's not true. Bulls are usually found higher and in nastier country. As a result the wolves will run them into deep snow until the get bogged down, then they take them out.
I did see this one at bow range last week, but with no tag for the unit. Also not in an area with wolves.


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## bwalker (Nov 20, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> There was an engineer on here not long ago telling us chinese cylinders are superior too OEM. He was asked how he came up with this delusional conclusion the answer was always I'm an engineer lol
> Many a time in my life working machinery or whatever it is was that was a terrible design and as the frustration mounted I've wished I could have a little chat with the engineer that designed it lol





rogue60 said:


> There was an engineer on here not long ago telling us chinese cylinders are superior too OEM. He was asked how he came up with this delusional conclusion the answer was always I'm an engineer lol
> Many a time in my life working machinery or whatever it is was that was a terrible design and as the frustration mounted I've wished I could have a little chat with the engineer that designed it lol


Only a small amount of engineers are worth a damn, just like any other profession.
A friend of mine who is a ME and has PE license told me once the average engineer should be locked in a rubber room and fed with a sling shot. I dont disagree.


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## sean donato (Nov 20, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> There was an engineer on here not long ago telling us chinese cylinders are superior too OEM. He was asked how he came up with this delusional conclusion the answer was always I'm an engineer lol
> Many a time in my life working machinery or whatever it is was that was a terrible design and as the frustration mounted I've wished I could have a little chat with the engineer that designed it lol


Sounds like valley forge.....


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Only a small amount of engineers are worth a damn, just like any other profession.
> A friend of mine who is a ME and has PE license told me once the average engineer should be locked in a rubber room and fed with a sling shot. I dont disagree.


Every automotive engineer for the past 16 model years falls into this category.


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## sean donato (Nov 20, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Every automotive engineer for the past 16 model years falls into this category.


Longer then that....


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 20, 2022)

Yeah, I can't argue with that. Just the past 16 stand out as THE most INFURIATING vehicles of all time. 

My '07 Silverado garage queen with just 103k miles on the clock took me 2 weeks to R&R the transmission - WITH a LIFT - after 3rd & 4th went up in smoke. Every single part of that truck fought me, from the plastic grille, to the bellhousing bolts, manifolds, and transfer case bolts ... not to mention the 200 different styles of connectors that have ZERO logic as to how they come apart. Was absolutely INFURIATING! I'm just thankful mine doesn't have a fraction of the rust that most vehicles this age do around here. Could've been 10x worse!


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## thenne1713 (Nov 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If your going to throw a title around you should probably mention what type of engineer you are. It's very germain tonwhat we are talking about.


You can find/read online where one CSM user built three saws w/ new piston/ rings ran 1x 25:1, 1x 50:1, 1x100:1, (all synthetic) ran each x-hours under load and tore down; his conclusion was stick with 50:1 for least carbon and least skirt scuffing. My 10-yrs_ experience w/ synthethic says same. OLD, lower grade dino oils= ANOTHER STORY. USE SYNTHETHIC, TUNE TO YOUR MIX, and stay there. MINE is 50:1 and VERY Happy, with all my ***.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 20, 2022)

I like Amsoil saber, mostly because the exhaust doesn’t give me a headache and smells quite pleasant, but their testing of weed eaters against echo oil was such a huge fail and waste of time. Whoever came up with the test was a fool - the engines weren’t ever under load in 300 hours…


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> You can find/read online where one CSM user built three saws w/ new piston/ rings ran 1x 25:1, 1x 50:1, 1x100:1, (all synthetic) ran each x-hours under load and tore down; his conclusion was stick with 50:1 for least carbon and least skirt scuffing. My 10-yrs_ experience w/ synthethic says same. OLD, lower grade dino oils= ANOTHER STORY. USE SYNTHETHIC, TUNE TO YOUR MIX, and stay there. MINE is 50:1 and VERY Happy, with all my ***.


That has no statistical validity and the methodology is likewise poor.
We do have a member hear that runs 25:1 and he likes the results. I don't like tonuse that much oil in a saw because I don't think the loads involved warrant it, but I have ran 32:1 for years. I can assure you my engines look very good, the saws don't smoke and I have never plugged a spark screen.
Most modern oils are really synthetic blends. There are also oils that are straight synthetics that suck. Synthetic in and of itself doesn't tell one much when it comes to two cycle oils.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> I like Amsoil saber, mostly because the exhaust doesn’t give me a headache and smells quite pleasant, but their testing of weed eaters against echo oil was such a huge fail and waste of time. Whoever came up with the test was a fool - the engines weren’t ever under load in 300 hours…


Scamsoil repeatedly does stuff like this and it's been going on for years. One of the reasons I won't touch their wares.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Every automotive engineer for the past 16 model years falls into this category.


Unless they work for Toyota or Honda....


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

I just had a GM


Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Yeah, I can't argue with that. Just the past 16 stand out as THE most INFURIATING vehicles of all time.
> 
> My '07 Silverado garage queen with just 103k miles on the clock took me 2 weeks to R&R the transmission - WITH a LIFT - after 3rd & 4th went up in smoke. Every single part of that truck fought me, from the plastic grille, to the bellhousing bolts, manifolds, and transfer case bolts ... not to mention the 200 different styles of connectors that have ZERO logic as to how they come apart. Was absolutely INFURIATING! I'm just thankful mine doesn't have a fraction of the rust that most vehicles this age do around here. Could've been 10x worse!


I just had a GMC Acadia smoke an engine with less than 150k on the clock. And it that vehicle took alot of parts to make it that long. Meanwhile my Toyota Tacoma has over 200K on it and has ate a few serpentine belts, tires and one set of brakes...


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## JRM (Nov 21, 2022)

Sorry to say but they're all junk and built with planned obsolescence as part of the equation. It's a matter of finding what fits you, figuring out the weaknesses and dealing with them. 
Maintenance and rust prevention (around here) is key. Skip on the rust prevention and the Maintenance won't much matter. I regularly see trucks inside of 10 years falling apart, literally. Ford, GM, and Ram can't keep bed sides intact. Toyota seems a little better but their bed and cab floors rot out, as do the frames rails and cross members for the bed supports.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> That has no statistical validity and the methodology is likewise poor.
> We do have a member hear that runs 25:1 and he likes the results. I don't like tonuse that much oil in a saw because I don't think the loads involved warrant it, but I have ran 32:1 for years. I can assure you my engines look very good, the saws don't smoke and I have never plugged a spark screen.
> Most modern oils are really synthetic blends. There are also oils that are straight synthetics that suck. Synthetic in and of itself doesn't tell one much when it comes to two cycle oils.



Just to clarify, I have only seen one saw with a stopped up muffler screen. Not sure how they did that.

Hedge trimmers with the exhaust on the bottom stop up regularly, and the 2 cycle blowers stop up regularly.

With the trimmers I think it is the position of the exhaust. With the blowers I think they work around an area at half throttle to control where everything goes and don't get it hot enough to burn it off.

Chainsaws by nature of use stay hot enough to keep the carbon burnt off.

I usually throw them away or grind them off depending on how they are made, but I'm sure I'm supposed to burn them off with a propane torch and put them back in.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 21, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> So, I do what the engineers who blend the oil and make the saws say to do.
> 
> Makes perfect sense to me.



Until you realise it’s the EPA who control what the engineers can do.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Until you realise it’s the EPA who control what the engineers can do.


The EPA doesn't set oil ratios though. Oil ratios are more driven by the perception of visible smoke and the fact the average consumer is a farking idiot that can't tune a carb or maintain anything to save their lives.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Just to clarify, I have only seen one saw with a stopped up muffler screen. Not sure how they did that.
> 
> Hedge trimmers with the exhaust on the bottom stop up regularly, and the 2 cycle blowers stop up regularly.
> 
> ...


I use to run BP blowers alot and still do, but to a lesser degree. Never had a screen plug. I should add that the last two I have had where strato engines that run very clean. Before that I had a Stihl BR420.
I also have a Stihl FS85 trimmer that I bought used from a friend some time around the year 2000. It's never been cleaned either.
I might add I run the blowers wide open same for a trimmer. The crude carbs on O P E really don't work that great at half throttle and they aren't ment to be ran like that.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

JRM said:


> Sorry to say but they're all junk and built with planned obsolescence as part of the equation. It's a matter of finding what fits you, figuring out the weaknesses and dealing with them.
> Maintenance and rust prevention (around here) is key. Skip on the rust prevention and the Maintenance won't much matter. I regularly see trucks inside of 10 years falling apart, literally. Ford, GM, and Ram can't keep bed sides intact. Toyota seems a little better but their bed and cab floors rot out, as do the frames rails and cross members for the bed supports.


Rust isn't the fault of the MFG's to some degree. It's hard to make something iutnof steel that won't rust when subjected to 3-6 months of salt water exposure every year.
When I moved to Montana from Upper MI I was amazed at the number of older vehicles running around with no rust.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I use to run BP blowers alot and still do, but to a lesser degree. Never had a screen plug. I should add that the last two I have had where strato engines that run very clean. Before that I had a Stihl BR420.
> I also have a Stihl FS85 trimmer that I bought used from a friend some time around the year 2000. It's never been cleaned either.
> I might add I run the blowers wide open same for a trimmer. The crude carbs on O P E really don't work that great at half throttle and they aren't ment to be ran like that.




We have an account who buys BR450's maybe a dozen at a time and they won't even take them unless you remove the screen.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Rust isn't the fault of the MFG's to some degree. It's hard to make something iutnof steel that won't rust when subjected to 3-6 months of salt water exposure every year.
> When I moved to Montana from Upper MI I was amazed at the number of older vehicles running around with no rust.



I've lived in the PNW my whole life. I watch Candadian Youtuber Deboss Garage, and have literally gone "wow that's rusty, PASS" seconds before he's going IT'S SO CLEAN, THERE'S NO RUST ANYWHERE! Surface rust doesn't even register to him.


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## JRM (Nov 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Rust isn't the fault of the MFG's to some degree.



Steel can be galvanized easy enough to withstand decades of corrosion. It's just not cost efficient. (Most) people would rather spend $20k for a "luxury" package, so that's what the masses get instead of a vehicle that will actually last. Planned obsolescence. 

Volkswagen actually tried to get it right more so than anyone here in N.A. did. Double sided zinc plated panels. Copper Nickel brake lines. I've seen many 20 year old VW/Audis around here with original brake lines looking much better than other manufacturers half their age.
BUT they get failing marks on so many of the mechanicals and is understandable why people that don't live in the land of cancer overlook them. 

It's all a trade off. 

For a better perception of my environment, Fluid Film performed a 5 year study at my counties ODOT garage. We're a perfect storm of heavy Lake Effect snow (100"+ per year avg), high year round humidity, and winter temps that are conducive to accelerated corrosion. 

I'd gladly give up most all of the amenities in modern vehicles for something that could just hold up for 25 years with minimal structural maintenance. But that's not what most people want .

As it is, I easily spend 10-12 hours and $100 per vehicle annually on rust prevention.....all to eventually lose anyhow. That might not sound like alot....multiply by 4 (vehicles) and one maybe starts to appreciate the effort. Most won't put this effort into one let alone 4. It's a real investment both physically and financially in long term ownership here. There's no alternatives unless one wishes to have a car payment for life. 

OK! Today's crying session complete!


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> We have an account who buys BR450's maybe a dozen at a time and they won't even take them unless you remove the screen.


And that's probaly not a bad idea unless your in the western US.
The other thing is those 4mix engines are really a poor design. The exhaust valves gum up and start to leak. I could see that very easily causing a plugged screen.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I've lived in the PNW my whole life. I watch Candadian Youtuber Deboss Garage, and have literally gone "wow that's rusty, PASS" seconds before he's going IT'S SO CLEAN, THERE'S NO RUST ANYWHERE! Surface rust doesn't even register to him.


That salt causes issues with the entire driveline too. Wheel bearings, pinions seals, U joints, etc.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

JRM said:


> Steel can be galvanized easy enough to withstand decades of corrosion. It's just not cost efficient. (Most) people would rather spend $20k for a "luxury" package, so that's what the masses get instead of a vehicle that will actually last. Planned obsolescence.
> 
> Volkswagen actually tried to get it right more so than anyone here in N.A. did. Double sided zinc plated panels. Copper Nickel brake lines. I've seen many 20 year old VW/Audis around here with original brake lines looking much better than other manufacturers half their age.
> BUT they get failing marks on so many of the mechanicals and is understandable why people that don't live in the land of cancer overlook them.
> ...


The US OEM's have been using galvanized and coated steels for decades.
I know this because I previously worked for the biggest supplier of automotive steel in the US.


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## huskihl (Nov 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The US OEM's have been using galvanized and coated steels for decades.
> I know this because I previously worked for the biggest supplier of automotive steel in the US.


Been galvanized since the late 80’s to some degree.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The EPA doesn't set oil ratios though. Oil ratios are more driven by the perception of visible smoke and the fact the average consumer is a farking idiot that can't tune a carb or maintain anything to save their lives.


They set emission standards which are intrinsically linked.


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## bwalker (Nov 21, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> They set emission standards which are intrinsically linked.


Oil has very little impact on two stroke emmissions. So no, they are not intrinsically linked. The same mechanism that allows unburnt fuel to escape the exhaust port is the same mechanism that allows un combusted oil to escape the exhaust port. IE in a traditional two stroke the transfer port and the exhaust port are both open at the same time to facilitate scavenging of exhaust from the cylinder. Strato charging is now widely used to stop this and Autotune and Mtronic controlled carbs keep the fuel to air ratio in a range that ensures efficient combustion.
In short it's the scavenging process in traditional two strokes that causes high emmissions and the oil content has little to no influence on this.


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## Pioneer (Nov 22, 2022)

I once serviced an old Homelite XL-1 for a friend who bought it used cheap at an estate sale. The saw would literally not run fast enough to spin up the chain, not even high idle. I found out why when I pulled apart the muffler, it was choked up with so much carbon it only had a few pinholes left to pass the exhaust gas. It was a muffler like this.




Almost every one of those vents were plugged solid. To this day I have never seen this amount of carbon build up in a muffler, I can only speculate as to how it got in that condition as it was impossible for the saw to cut wood. My best guess is that someone let it idle through a complete or even several tanks of gas with a rich mixture, wrong oil, bad gas or a combination of them.
I have several of these saws, and have never had any significant carbon buildup in any of their mufflers. I run Castrol 2t for the most part, I don't think it's anything special as oils go, but it has never plugged up a screen or baffle.
I suppose proper tuning is the key with any oil/mix ratio, personally it bugs me when a saw doesn't sound right, and the mix adjustment screwdriver is always close by during any cutting secession.


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## JRM (Nov 22, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The US OEM's have been using galvanized and coated steels for decades.


I've heard this before and don't doubt you. All I can say is, there was obviously different methods used at the time. Or perhaps better surface prep from one manufacturer to the next. I've read of Porsche experimenting with hot dipping in the 1970's but wasn't common practice until sometime later.


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## camel2019 (Nov 22, 2022)

JRM said:


> Steel can be galvanized easy enough to withstand decades of corrosion. It's just not cost efficient. (Most) people would rather spend $20k for a "luxury" package, so that's what the masses get instead of a vehicle that will actually last. Planned obsolescence.
> 
> Volkswagen actually tried to get it right more so than anyone here in N.A. did. Double sided zinc plated panels. Copper Nickel brake lines. I've seen many 20 year old VW/Audis around here with original brake lines looking much better than other manufacturers half their age.
> BUT they get failing marks on so many of the mechanicals and is understandable why people that don't live in the land of cancer overlook them.
> ...


Fox body mustangs were actually galvanized and still rusted out. Road salt mixed into slush and brine puddles don’t help.


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## JRM (Nov 22, 2022)

Again, it's all in the process. Galvanized (structural) steel can look good with minimal corrosion for decades if done properly. I see it all the time living on the Great Lakes. 
If welds aren't properly treated that will be the first place to rust. If the back sides of panels or the insides of rockers weren't thoroughly coated they'll rot from the inside out. From my experiences dealing with American cars made in the 80's and 90's if they were galvanized it was either in limited capacity or their practices were poor.


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## bwalker (Nov 22, 2022)

JRM said:


> Again, it's all in the process. Galvanized (structural) steel can look good with minimal corrosion for decades if done properly. I see it all the time living on the Great Lakes.
> If welds aren't properly treated that will be the first place to rust. If the back sides of panels or the insides of rockers weren't thoroughly coated they'll rot from the inside out. From my experiences dealing with American cars made in the 80's and 90's if they were galvanized it was either in limited capacity or their practices were poor.


 Galvanizing doesn't stand up to salt exposure very well.
And where I use to live sometimes had 8 months of salt use. Not to mention the salt that come south of the road when it rains in the spring.
US -41 in Marquette County, MI is one of the most heavily salted roads in the country and during the winter it looks like Bonneville when the sun pops out and drys the road. No coating will help with that amount of exposure.


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## bwalker (Nov 22, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> I once serviced an old Homelite XL-1 for a friend who bought it used cheap at an estate sale. The saw would literally not run fast enough to spin up the chain, not even high idle. I found out why when I pulled apart the muffler, it was choked up with so much carbon it only had a few pinholes left to pass the exhaust gas. It was a muffler like this.
> 
> View attachment 1034072
> 
> ...


I have seen exhaust ports so plugged that the exhaust path was no bigger than the diameter of a #2 pencil. The old bright stock base oils and certainly automotive oils will do this readily under the right circumstances. It doesn't happen fast, but builds up over time.


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## Hermio (Nov 22, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> You're assuming that your suppositions and assumptions are as valid a form of evidence as the actual lived experience of the guys who run these saws day in and day out, and the experience of those who work on those saws which are run day in and day out.
> 
> This is not correct.


No, I am not. I am assuming that thew engineers who design equipment for a living, and the oil company engineers, know more about the subject than the end users do.


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## Hermio (Nov 22, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Boy, you sure danced around that... I think your full of it. But I will give you another chance. What engineering discipline is your degree in?
> And this isn't English class, bud. I refuse to proof read a post on a internet forum.
> And to be clear.. we aren't talking about a hypothetical point where there is too much oil. What we are talking aboutbis the fact that a bit more oil is beneficial for most saws.
> As for your test. Its about as valid as Project farms garbage. You need alot more than 2-5 data points to achieve any sort of statistical validity. You should be aware of this given your allegedly an engineer.
> You also absolutely made several blanket statements..


All you have is ad-hominem attacks. It sounds to me as though you are jealous of engineers. Your later posts reinforce that. And while I agree that more data points would be better, I stated that the suggested tests would be a MINIMUM. What part of that don't you understand? I have no need to tell you which discipline my degree is in, as it is irrelevant. All engineers know how to conduct experiments and analyze data. You used the term "allegedly" about my engineering degree as though you doubt I have one. I would bet you serious money that I could prove it except I would get kicked off the forum. Your ad-hominem attacks on people that conduct real tests and show real data makes you just like the liberal censors at FaceBook, TikTok, CNN, etc., who suppress views contrary to theirs.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 22, 2022)

Hermio said:


> No, I am not. I am assuming that thew engineers who design equipment for a living, and the oil company engineers, know more about the subject than the end users do.



That may be a valid nuance.

It still doesn't apply. As I've said, the engineer's and company's goals will be different than the end user's goals.


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## Lawless (Nov 22, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> I once serviced an old Homelite XL-1 for a friend who bought it used cheap at an estate sale. The saw would literally not run fast enough to spin up the chain, not even high idle. I found out why when I pulled apart the muffler, it was choked up with so much carbon it only had a few pinholes left to pass the exhaust gas. It was a muffler like this.
> 
> View attachment 1034072
> 
> ...


And the dead guy probably went to his grave thinking “that piece of junk won’t even turn the chain”


----------



## Hermio (Nov 22, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> That may be a valid nuance.
> 
> It still doesn't apply. As I've said, the engineer's and company's goals will be different than the end user's goals.


That MAY be true. However, at least for pro saws, it is in the manufacturers' best interest to make a product with high reliability, and that includes the oil recommendation, because pro users share their experiences, this forum being one example of where they do so. If a lot of people complained that their saws were wearing out quickly, that would hurt sales. Planned obsolescence may be the goal for consumer saws, but I doubt that would work for pro saws.


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## Lawless (Nov 22, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Galvanizing doesn't stand up to salt exposure very well.


True.

Look at any hurricane flooded coastal building with metal studs after the drywall is taken down for insulation replacement.


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## camel2019 (Nov 22, 2022)

JRM said:


> Again, it's all in the process. Galvanized (structural) steel can look good with minimal corrosion for decades if done properly. I see it all the time living on the Great Lakes.
> If welds aren't properly treated that will be the first place to rust. If the back sides of panels or the insides of rockers weren't thoroughly coated they'll rot from the inside out. From my experiences dealing with American cars made in the 80's and 90's if they were galvanized it was either in limited capacity or their practices were poor.


I’m pretty sure ford dipped them after the shells were together. But galvanized not galvanized road salt don’t care I oil spray my vehicles.


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## bwalker (Nov 22, 2022)

Hermio said:


> That MAY be true. However, at least for pro saws, it is in the manufacturers' best interest to make a product with high reliability, and that includes the oil recommendation, because pro users share their experiences, this forum being one example of where they do so. If a lot of people complained that their saws were wearing out quickly, that would hurt sales. Planned obsolescence may be the goal for consumer saws, but I doubt that would work for pro saws.


You have clearly never worked in Manufacturing... this just isn't how it works.


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## bwalker (Nov 22, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> That may be a valid nuance.
> 
> 
> 
> It still doesn't apply. As I've said, the engineer's and company's goals will be different than the end user's goals.


There is very often a disconnect between engineering, corporate and finance.


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## bwalker (Nov 22, 2022)

Hermio, yes I do have doubts you are an engineer. If only because what you have said and and the logic you are using.


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## JRM (Nov 22, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> But galvanized not galvanized road salt don’t care



True to a point, especially in the auto sector - but for no other reason than cost. Not the case elsewhere if the coating is properly specd' for the environment. Galvanized coatings are sacrificial in nature when subjected to chlorides. The more corrosive the environment the heavier the coating requirement. ASTM has performed extensive testing and concluded galv coatings can reasonably last several decades when applied properly and at the correct thickness. 
The other problem with the auto industry is the end user. Most aren't willing to maintain their finish to the necessary degree. A stone chip or a scratch requires immediate attention. The grey/white coating underneath (zinc) may not rust right away but will when it wears down (again, a sacrificial barrier) and then you are fighting a losing battle. 
Then there are the chips/poorly applied coating that you don't see and are screwed anyhow. BWalker is right in the aspect that galvanized coatings aren't the best solution for auto, but until they start producing vehicles out of materials that won't oxidise regardless it is the most cost efficient means available. 



camel2019 said:


> I oil spray my vehicles.



I've been using Wool wax on my vehicles for probably 15 years. Plus a good healthy wash using a mixture of baking soda /water solution through my pressure washer in the spring to neutralize the under carriage.


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## camel2019 (Nov 22, 2022)

JRM said:


> True to a point, especially in the auto sector - but for no other reason than cost. Not the case elsewhere if the coating is properly specd' for the environment. Galvanized coatings are sacrificial in nature when subjected to chlorides. The more corrosive the environment the heavier the coating requirement. ASTM has performed extensive testing and concluded galv coatings can reasonably last several decades when applied properly and at the correct thickness.
> The other problem with the auto industry is the end user. Most aren't willing to maintain their finish to the necessary degree. A stone chip or a scratch requires immediate attention. The grey/white coating underneath (zinc) may not rust right away but will when it wears down (again, a sacrificial barrier) and then you are fighting a losing battle.
> Then there are the chips/poorly applied coating that you don't see and are screwed anyhow. BWalker is right in the aspect that galvanized coatings aren't the best solution for auto, but until they start producing vehicles out of materials that won't oxidise regardless it is the most cost efficient means available.
> 
> ...


My mustang goes in and gets drip less put on the under side and standard in the doors,rockers,quarter panels and other internal spaces not that I drive it in the winter. My trucks I do my self with a mix of bar oil and motor oil works well and doesn’t break the bank. I’m also a huge advocate of deep floor mats in the winter.


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## rogue60 (Nov 22, 2022)

Hermio said:


> That MAY be true. However, at least for pro saws, it is in the manufacturers' best interest to make a product with high reliability, and that includes the oil recommendation, because pro users share their experiences, this forum being one example of where they do so. If a lot of people complained that their saws were wearing out quickly, that would hurt sales. Planned obsolescence may be the goal for consumer saws, but I doubt that would work for pro saws.


Must be why husky out of nowhere now recommends 32:1 in it's bigger cc pro saws I wonder why? is it due to so many premature failures? Husky recommending more oil is beneficial for a saws longevity has officially blown the minds of the 50:1 crowd lol


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 22, 2022)

Personally, my suggestion was do what the manufacturer recommends . LOL


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> True to a point, especially in the auto sector - but for no other reason than cost. Not the case elsewhere if the coating is properly specd' for the environment. Galvanized coatings are sacrificial in nature when subjected to chlorides. The more corrosive the environment the heavier the coating requirement. ASTM has performed extensive testing and concluded galv coatings can reasonably last several decades when applied properly and at the correct thickness.
> 
> The other problem with the auto industry is the end user. Most aren't willing to maintain their finish to the necessary degree. A stone chip or a scratch requires immediate attention. The grey/white coating underneath (zinc) may not rust right away but will when it wears down (again, a sacrificial barrier) and then you are fighting a losing battle.
> 
> ...





JRM said:


> True to a point, especially in the auto sector - but for no other reason than cost. Not the case elsewhere if the coating is properly specd' for the environment. Galvanized coatings are sacrificial in nature when subjected to chlorides. The more corrosive the environment the heavier the coating requirement. ASTM has performed extensive testing and concluded galv coatings can reasonably last several decades when applied properly and at the correct thickness.
> The other problem with the auto industry is the end user. Most aren't willing to maintain their finish to the necessary degree. A stone chip or a scratch requires immediate attention. The grey/white coating underneath (zinc) may not rust right away but will when it wears down (again, a sacrificial barrier) and then you are fighting a losing battle.
> Then there are the chips/poorly applied coating that you don't see and are screwed anyhow. BWalker is right in the aspect that galvanized coatings aren't the best solution for auto, but until they start producing vehicles out of materials that won't oxidise regardless it is the most cost efficient means available.
> 
> ...


One of the problems with auto steel is the coating has to be thin enough and flexible enough to not be disturbed by the stamping process.
The coatings used no are well beyond simple galvanized steel.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Personally, my suggestion was do what the manufacturer recommends . LOL


The manufacturers didn't change their oil ratio recommendations with the move to strato charged engines which use 25-35% less fuel and thus less oil. In addition they have much heavier rotating assemblies which further streases bearings. You think that was a smart move? I bet the engineering department didn't think that was a smart move, but they don't make the call in these sorts decisions.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> I’m pretty sure ford dipped them after the shells were together. But galvanized not galvanized road salt don’t care I oil spray my vehicles.


Not in a long time. Maybe in the 60's and 70's for priming purposes.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

Hermio said:


> All you have is ad-hominem attacks. It sounds to me as though you are jealous of engineers. Your later posts reinforce that. And while I agree that more data points would be better, I stated that the suggested tests would be a MINIMUM. What part of that don't you understand? I have no need to tell you which discipline my degree is in, as it is irrelevant. All engineers know how to conduct experiments and analyze data. You used the term "allegedly" about my engineering degree as though you doubt I have one. I would bet you serious money that I could prove it except I would get kicked off the forum. Your ad-hominem attacks on people that conduct real tests and show real data makes you just like the liberal censors at FaceBook, TikTok, CNN, etc., who suppress views contrary to theirs.


I didn't ad hominem attack you in any way. I did ask for your credentials since your throwing your title around. Then you come back with " I could prove it, but would be kicked off the forum". I about rolled out of my chair laughing.
And you are right engineers typically no how to experiment and analyze data, methodologies, etc. Which is why it's perplexing that you find home brewed tests on YouTube even remotely valid. It's also further perplexing your train of thought on this subject. Which leads me to believe your not a real engineer or if you are it's in a discipline unrelated to mechanics.
As for engineers and any jealousy. Not in the least. I admire some of them that are competent at what they do. Most aren't and operate in the realm of theory only. When field results dont much what theory suggests they get tied into all sprts of knots. In addition I have almost always worked in supervision and have always made more money than engineers that actually did engineering work. A certified union operator at my current job makes more than a project engineer. I actuallybwork with several engineers that are operators for this exact reason. A engineer can make really good money, but typicaly only if they get into management. That makes sense
because machines are not hard to figure out, but people sure are.
And I didn't proof read this so forgive the grammar and spelling errors...


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## J D (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The manufacturers didn't change their oil ratio recommendations with the move to strato charged engines which use 25-35% less fuel and thus less oil. In addition they have much heavier rotating assemblies which further streases bearings. You think that was a smart move? I bet the engineering department didn't think that was a smart move, but they don't make the call in these sorts decisions.


I can just imagine the chain of conversation...
Engineer: "We've come up with a new 2 stroke motor that uses 30% less fuel & has half the emissions"
Advertising: "that's great, but looks like you want to run it at 32:1... we can't market that"
Engineer: "but it's using the same amount of oil & is better in every other respect"
Management: "what happens if we run it at 50:1?"
Engineer: "it won't last as long"
Management: "will it last the warranty period?"
Engineer: "I'd expect so, but..."
Advertising: "sweet, we can work with that"
Engineer: "but..."
Management: "cool, good work team"
Engineer: "but..."
Management: "it's kind of heavy for the power isn't it"
Engineer: "we're still working on that, but about the oil..."
Advertising: "don't worry about that, we'll just focus on the other spec's"
Management: "excellent, I'll let production know its a go then"
Engineer: "but..."
Management: "great meeting guys, catch up with you again at the review"
Engineer: *perplexed, walks out shaking his head & considering his options as an operator*


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The manufacturers didn't change their oil ratio recommendations with the move to strato charged engines which use 25-35% less fuel and thus less oil. In addition they have much heavier rotating assemblies which further streases bearings. You think that was a smart move? I bet the engineering department didn't think that was a smart move, but they don't make the call in these sorts decisions.



Consider how much of that 25% or 30% did anything on the way through with the gasoline that didn't do anything ?
I'm starting to get some of the "strato" saws in with some issues, but not bearing or scored piston issues, so far anyway.

Like a said earlier, I have a tree service guy that has three of the MS362's that had "strato" carburetors and they have a zillion hours on them. But, he may run 4 to 1 for all I know.

I just have to go what I see.


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## sean donato (Nov 23, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> I once serviced an old Homelite XL-1 for a friend who bought it used cheap at an estate sale. The saw would literally not run fast enough to spin up the chain, not even high idle. I found out why when I pulled apart the muffler, it was choked up with so much carbon it only had a few pinholes left to pass the exhaust gas. It was a muffler like this.
> 
> View attachment 1034072
> 
> ...


A lot of guys tune using smoke and not how the saw/ equipment is running. See this a decent bit in newbies to rc 2 strokes. They think it should be like a nitro and smoke like a pig. 


Hermio said:


> That MAY be true. However, at least for pro saws, it is in the manufacturers' best interest to make a product with high reliability, and that includes the oil recommendation, because pro users share their experiences, this forum being one example of where they do so. If a lot of people complained that their saws were wearing out quickly, that would hurt sales. Planned obsolescence may be the goal for consumer saws, but I doubt that would work for pro saws.


I doubt they care very mush at all, all the issues the early stratto and m-tronic/autotune saws had that still took years for them to figure out the issues. Besides that the average "pro" saw only lasts my logging buddy 2 possibly 3 years and it's hammered both physically and mechanically. 


rogue60 said:


> Must be why husky out of nowhere now recommends 32:1 in it's bigger cc pro saws I wonder why? is it due to so many premature failures? Husky recommending more oil is beneficial for a saws longevity has officially blown the minds of the 50:1 crowd lol


It's not out of no where and not new. Larger 2 series saws have multiple reccomendations listed in the manuals. Typically 50 to 1, 33 to 1 and 25 to 1 for a 288xp. The manual also state to speak with your dealer to determine ratio. 
This is a screen shot from a 1997 manual for a 2101 showing 25 to 1 ratio. 
This isn't anything new. The late 90s 50 to 1 was just what went Industry standard.


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## rogue60 (Nov 23, 2022)

sean donato said:


> A lot of guys tune using smoke and not how the saw/ equipment is running. See this a decent bit in newbies to rc 2 strokes. They think it should be like a nitro and smoke like a pig.
> 
> I doubt they care very mush at all, all the issues the early stratto and m-tronic/autotune saws had that still took years for them to figure out the issues. Besides that the average "pro" saw only lasts my logging buddy 2 possibly 3 years and it's hammered both physically and mechanically.
> 
> ...


Yeah I know I was directing it at the never stray from 50:1 crowd. Down here Stihl manuals always used to say if not using stihl oil run 25:1 in pro saws. This was still in the manuals up to the last of the ms660 and ms880 can't remember what the ms661 manual says I'll see if I can find one.


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## camel2019 (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Not in a long time. Maybe in the 60's and 70's for priming purposes.


80’s too they were still using body solder on the joints for the roofs of fox body mustangs too. As a matter of fact chevy trucks and cargo vans from the late 80’s into the 90’s are some sort of galvanized and the paint they used never stuck very well.


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## Lawless (Nov 23, 2022)

J D said:


> I can just imagine the chain of conversation...
> Engineer: "We've come up with a new 2 stroke motor that uses 30% less fuel & has half the emissions"
> Advertising: "that's great, but looks like you want to run it at 32:1... we can't market that"
> Engineer: "but it's using the same amount of oil & is better in every other respect"
> ...


A long time ago as a young team leading master tech for a GM dealer…

There was an S10 with engine noise. We wanted to replace it, it needed it and usually we had freedom to do it. Our new rep came out to see the truck and introduce himself. He wanted us to pull the oil pan and replace rod bearings. I and others tried to explain that this was a piston knock and bearings wouldn’t fix it. He said put the bearings in it 

So I had the bearings put in it and same issue. He then told us to let the customer drive it a bit to see if it improved 

This was a nice older man who simply got an unlucky break in his brand new truck. I argued this point and the rep looked me in the eye and said “our job isn’t to get this guy another 36000 miles, it’s to get him TO 36000 miles”.

I and the shop foreman laid a brick on the accelerator in the wash house that evening with the manager’s knowledge. Got a new engine coming soon after.

Rep said “I guess now we know what was wrong” 

Manufacturers as a whole are huge and uncaring. In my experience 2 that stand out as very customer concerned are Kubota and Honda.


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## sean donato (Nov 23, 2022)

Lawless said:


> A long time ago as a young team leading master tech for a GM dealer…
> 
> There was an S10 with engine noise. We wanted to replace it, it needed it and usually we had freedom to do it. Our new rep came out to see the truck and introduce himself. He wanted us to pull the oil pan and replace rod bearings. I and others tried to explain that this was a piston knock and bearings wouldn’t fix it. He said put the bearings in it
> 
> ...


I'm on a kubota tractor site and a fair few of them will say kubota has the same mantra. The local dealer has the same thought, get it through the warranty period..


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## Lawless (Nov 23, 2022)

sean donato said:


> I'm on a kubota tractor site and a fair few of them will say kubota has the same mantra. The local dealer has the same thought, get it through the warranty period..


Sorry for that. It has not been my experience.


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## skeet88 (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I didn't ad hominem attack you in any way. I did ask for your credentials since your throwing your title around. Then you come back with " I could prove it, but would be kicked off the forum". I about rolled out of my chair laughing.
> And you are right engineers typically no how to experiment and analyze data, methodologies, etc. Which is why it's perplexing that you find home brewed tests on YouTube even remotely valid. It's also further perplexing your train of thought on this subject. Which leads me to believe your not a real engineer or if you are it's in a discipline unrelated to mechanics.
> As for engineers and any jealousy. Not in the least. I admire some of them that are competent at what they do. Most aren't and operate in the realm of theory only. When field results dont much what theory suggests they get tied into all sprts of knots. In addition I have almost always worked in supervision and have always made more money than engineers that actually did engineering work. A certified union operator at my current job makes more than a project engineer. I actuallybwork with several engineers that are operators for this exact reason. A engineer can make really good money, but typicaly only if they get into management. That makes sense
> because machines are not hard to figure out, but people sure are.
> And I didn't proof read this so forgive the grammar and spelling errors...


Sounds like the pulp and paper industry.We have guys coming off the farm starting out more than an engineer going to school for 4 years. I use to cuss engineers daily when I worked on JD tractors. Who in their right mind would design a tractor where you had to remove the cab to replace a fuel tank sending unit! Y’all Be Good and Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


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## camel2019 (Nov 23, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Sounds like the pulp and paper industry.We have guys coming off the farm starting out more than an engineer going to school for 4 years. I use to cuss engineers daily when I worked on JD tractors. Who in their right mind would design a tractor where you had to remove the cab to replace a fuel tank sending unit! Y’all Be Good and Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


Gravity feed with a carb ie vintage tractors still do their jobs


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

J D said:


> I can just imagine the chain of conversation...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





ZeroJunk said:


> Consider how much of that 25% or 30% did anything on the way through with the gasoline that didn't do anything ?
> I'm starting to get some of the "strato" saws in with some issues, but not bearing or scored piston issues, so far anyway.
> 
> Like a said earlier, I have a tree service guy that has three of the MS362's that had "strato" carburetors and they have a zillion hours on them. But, he may run 4 to 1 for all I know.
> ...


FOR ABOUT THE FIFTH TIME... when fresh charge enters a two cycle the gasoline part flashes from fine liquid droplets form to vapor. When this happens the oil portion of the charge is deposited on the internal surfaces of the engine. So, anything that makes a two cycle engine burn less fuel also robs it of lubrication.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

Lawless said:


> A long time ago as a young team leading master tech for a GM dealer…
> 
> There was an S10 with engine noise. We wanted to replace it, it needed it and usually we had freedom to do it. Our new rep came out to see the truck and introduce himself. He wanted us to pull the oil pan and replace rod bearings. I and others tried to explain that this was a piston knock and bearings wouldn’t fix it. He said put the bearings in it
> 
> ...


GM makes about the biggest piles of junk around.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Sorry for that. It has not been my experience.


The older Kubotas although not as nice as a John Deere where stone reliable. The newer emmissions compliant ones are very in reliable.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Sounds like the pulp and paper industry.We have guys coming off the farm starting out more than an engineer going to school for 4 years. I use to cuss engineers daily when I worked on JD tractors. Who in their right mind would design a tractor where you had to remove the cab to replace a fuel tank sending unit! Y’all Be Good and Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


It's like that in a alot of industries. Oil refining, power generation, and mining to name the ones I am expiereanced with.
Keep in mind to get into those industries you can't be a dummy. Exxon-Mobil pre employment test was more difficult than anything I ran into in college.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> 80’s too they were still using body solder on the joints for the roofs of fox body mustangs too. As a matter of fact chevy trucks and cargo vans from the late 80’s into the 90’s are some sort of galvanized and the paint they used never stuck very well.


As already mentioned galvanized has been in use for decades.
What I was saying is the galvanizing is done at the steel coil plant and not in the auto manufacturing plant. It's a fairly involved process and doing it after partial assembly doesn't make sense from a QC aspect.
All the American auto companies had pain issues in the 80's and 90's. This was due to the switch to emmissions friendly paints mostly.


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## camel2019 (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> As already mentioned galvanized has been in use for decades.
> What I was saying is the galvanizing is done at the steel coil plant and not in the auto manufacturing plant. It's a fairly involved process and doing it after partial assembly doesn't make sense from a QC aspect.


I can tell you that 90% of the coils I see almost on a daily basis are bare steel. I live in what once was the automotive capital of Canada Windsor Ontario as a matter of fact without what would become Windsor(the city was built around industry mostly woodlands and fields before that) there really wouldn’t be much of an auto industry now.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> I can tell you that 90% of the coils I see almost on a daily basis are bare steel. I live in what once was the automotive capital of Canada Windsor Ontario as a matter of fact without what would become Windsor(the city was built around industry mostly woodlands and fields before that) there really wouldn’t be much of an auto industry now.


Bare steel is still used to make things like frames, A-arms, etc.
Bare steal hasn't been used to make body panels for many decades.
I worked in the auto industry right out of college and then latter worked for Cleveland Cliffs Iron in their mining divsion. CCI now supplies most of the steel for the US auto industry.


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## camel2019 (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Bare steal is still used to make things like frames, A-arms, etc.
> Bare steal hasn't been used to make body panels for many decades.
> I worked in the auto industry right out of college and then latter worked for Cleveland Cliffs Iron in their mining divsion. CCI now supplies most of the steel for the US auto industry.


Don’t think we’re making frames here for anything pretty much the only company rolling full cars of the production line here is Chryslers and all they make is minivans.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Don’t think we’re making frames here for anything pretty much the only company rolling full cars of the production line here is Chryslers and all they make is minivans.


All the suspension pieces, engine cradles are probaly still bare steel. I can assure you the body panels are all coated specialty steels. The steel supplier for that plant is probably the former AK steal just accross the river on the US side. Cleveland cliffs purchased that company primarily to get their Coates steel business.
Also keepnin mind that these coatings are such that visually they don't look much different than bare steel.


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## camel2019 (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> All the suspension pieces, engine cradles are probaly still bare steel. I can assure you the body panels are all coated specialty steels. The steel supplier for that plant is probably the former AK steal just accross the river on the US side. Cleveland cliffs purchased that company primarily to get their Coates steel business.
> Also keepnin mind that these coatings are such that visually they don't look much different than bare steel.


Steel comes from the Toronto area a lot of it actually crosses the border as well going to the us.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Steel comes from the Toronto area a lot of it actually crosses the border as well going to the us.


I realise Canada has a steel industry in Sault Saint Marie, Hamilton and Toronto area, etc but it's small compared to the US and the US companies have patents on most of the new high strength and coated steels.
AK was Chryslers supplier of the year a few years ago and pretty much supplies nearly all of Chryslers steel.
Regardless supplier, bare steel is not used in body panels and hasn't been for 30 or more years.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> FOR ABOUT THE FIFTH TIME... when fresh charge enters a two cycle the gasoline part flashes from fine liquid droplets form to vapor. When this happens the oil portion of the charge is deposited  on the internal surfaces of the engine. So, anything that makes a two cycle engine burn less fuel also robs it of lubrication.


For about the fifth time, it is not burning less fuel. Less unused fuel is being puked out the exhaust.
You have no idea how much of the oil mixed with that waste got on the surface of anything.

Somewhere between 0% and 100% I suspect.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> For about the fifth time, it is not burning less fuel. Less unused fuel is being puked out the exhaust.
> You have no idea how much of the oil mixed with that waste got on the surface of anything.
> 
> Somewhere between 0% and 100% I suspect.


Wether it burns it or not doesn't matter. Less fuel and thus less oil is passing through the motor. This isn't a hard concept to understand.
And almost all of that oil gets deposited on the surface once the engine is up to temp. If you have liquid fuel passing into the combustion chamber the motor runs like **** due to it being lean. Just like a cold motor... and A/F ratio is a ratio of air to vaporized fuel, not liquid fuel...
Now think about it before you reply. This is basic two cycle operation we are talking about..


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Yeah I know I was directing it at the never stray from 50:1 crowd. Down here Stihl manuals always used to say if not using stihl oil run 25:1 in pro saws. This was still in the manuals up to the last of the ms660 and ms880 can't remember what the ms661 manual says I'll see if I can find one.


The last 260 I bought used such verbiage. Which is a laugh, because Stihls oil has been low quality since forever.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Wether it burns it or not doesn't matter. Less fuel and thus less oil is passing through the motor. This isn't a hard concept to understand.
> And almost all of that oil gets deposited on the surface once the engine is up to temp. If you have liquid fuel passing into the combustion chamber the motor runs like **** due to it being lean. Just like a cold motor... and A/F ratio is a ratio of air to vaporized fuel, not liquid fuel...
> Now think about it before you reply. This is basic two cycle operation we are talking about..




I'm sure you have some alter and maybe candles to burn when you bow down to this.

But, in the meantime equipment coming in for oil related failures or using Stihl oil or whatever you are preaching just doesn't exist. Unless they forget to put any in.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I'm sure you have some alter and maybe candles to burn when you bow down to this.
> 
> But, in the meantime equipment coming in for oil related failures or using Stihl oil or whatever you are preaching just doesn't exist. Unless they forget to put any in.


Nice subject change...
Given you can't wrap your mind around basic two cycle operation I am betting your failure analysis isn't too hot either. Plus you are dealing with mostly homeowner junk that has low hours on it, correct.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Nice subject change...
> Given you can't wrap your mind around basic two cycle operation I am betting your failure analysis isn't too hot either. Plus you are dealing with mostly homeowner junk that has low hours on it, correct.


I believe the moon is made of green cheese.


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## Pioneer (Nov 23, 2022)

Strato saws definitely seem to run hotter on the exhaust side, for that reason alone I would run 40:1 with a premium oil on the type. I had to replace a Husqvarna 570's piston and cylinder that was badly scored on the exhaust side, the owner was pretty negligent about sharpening his chains and overworked the saw. A premium oil at a richer oil mix ratio might have saved it, or at least minimized the damage.
They may be great for emissions and fuel efficiency, but they're more critical when it comes to overheating. The part of the charge that goes out with the exhaust helps cool things down on non-strato saws.
Heat is the killer, keep this in mind when you're choosing mixed ratios for any application. Some lighty loaded stuff can get away with a lot less, the old golf cart motors ran 128:1, but if you're doing something like milling with a saw, make sure your oil and mix ratio is appropriate.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Strato saws definitely seem to run hotter on the exhaust side, for that reason alone I would run 40:1 with a premium oil on the type. I had to replace a Husqvarna 570's piston and cylinder that was badly scored on the exhaust side, the owner was pretty negligent about sharpening his chains and overworked the saw. A premium oil at a richer oil mix ratio might have saved it, or at least minimized the damage.
> They may be great for emissions and fuel efficiency, but they're more critical when it comes to overheating. The part of the charge that goes out with the exhaust helps cool things down on non-strato saws.
> Heat is the killer, keep this in mind when you're choosing mixed ratios for any application. Some lighty loaded stuff can get away with a lot less, the old golf cart motors ran 128:1, but if you're doing something like milling with a saw, make sure your oil and mix ratio is appropriate.


Scoring like that is typically caused by two things. A air leak of some sort or drastically lean carb settings. No oil at any amount will stop a burn down if either factor gets bad enough.
as you stated strato saws do run hot, which is why IMO its a good idea to have Autotune or Mtronic in place. I know both these systems are bagged on by the Luddite crew but they really save alot of saws from premature failure and ensure good running all the time. The average saw user can't tune a saw to save his life. You can lump most saw mechanics in with saw users as well.


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## camel2019 (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I realise Canada has a steel industry in Sault Saint Marie, Hamilton and Toronto area, etc but it's small compared to the US and the US companies have patents on most of the new high strength and coated steels.
> AK was Chryslers supplier of the year a few years ago and pretty much supplies nearly all of Chryslers steel.
> Regardless supplier, bare steel is not used in body panels and hasn't been for 30 or more years.


Body metal now a days sucks anyway it so thin(22ga and thinner) on most panels you can’t even weld it like you could on older cars it will warp to sh**.


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## MikeRock (Nov 23, 2022)

I have only vintage Stihl saws. 031, 041, and 075's. All said, 'do not use high octane fuel'. Now, fifty years later, is what we know at the pump as 'high octane', similar in any way to the old gasoline? We all know the issues with ethanol, so I only run 'high octane' now. Am I helping my saws or are they slowly committing suicide by fuel? Oil, I mix 32:1 with high test gas and keep it two months, then it goes in the Ford.... I drain the saws, then start them, warm, to eliminate fuel in the system. Good or bad? 
God bless


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## MacAttack (Nov 23, 2022)

The best fuel you can run in your saws is ethanol-free. The octane rating doesn't mean squat until you reach a compression high enough that detonation becomes an issue.


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## Pioneer (Nov 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Scoring like that is typically caused by two things. A air leak of some sort or drastically lean carb settings. No oil at any amount will stop a burn down if either factor gets bad enough.
> as you stated strato saws do run hot, which is why IMO its a good idea to have Autotune or Mtronic in place. I know both these systems are bagged on by the Luddite crew but they really save alot of saws from premature failure and ensure good running all the time. The average saw user can't tune a saw to save his life. You can lump most saw mechanics in with saw users as well.


Yes, I think that a lean mixture may have contributed, who knows what the factory tune was. I'm betting the mixtures were never touched, the saw screamed neglect. I'm pretty sure though that this horrible chain contributed greatly to the overheating. I had to grind about a third of it off before it was usable again.
These cringe worthy saws both came from that owner, the cylinder on the 570 look to have had very little time, and the crank seals were good. On the other hand the 51 had worn out seals causing an air leak, but was still running with good compression. The same mix was used for both, so we can pretty much rule that out as the cause of the meltdown.
I think the majority of saw owners are guilty of two things, dull chains and no tuning skills. When things go sour for them they are left scratching their heads, and any saw can get labeled as junk. Autotune or Mtronic takes care of one, but it takes practice to sharpen a chain well, and most people just can't be bothered to take the time to learn. A good sharp chain makes it so much easier for a saw to do its job.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Yes, I I think that a lean mixture may have contributed, who knows what the factory tune was. I'm betting the mixtures were never touched, the saw screamed neglect. I'm pretty sure though that this horrible chain contributed greatly to the overheating. I had to grind about a third of it off before it was usable again.
> These cringe worthy saws both came from that owner, the cylinder on the 570 look to have had very little time, and the crank seals were good. On the other hand the 51 had worn out seals causing an air leak, but was still running with good compression. The same mix was used for both, so we can pretty much rule that out as the cause of the meltdown.
> I think the majority of saw owners are guilty of two things, dull chains and no tuning skills. When things go sour for them they are left scratching their heads, and any saw can get labeled as junk. Autotune or Mtronic takes care of one, but it takes practice to sharpen a chain well, and most people just can't be bothered to take the time to learn. A good sharp chain makes it so much easier for a saw to do its job.
> 
> ...


Many guys are intimidated by sharpening. An Oregon roller guide makes it pretty easy to make a serviceable chain.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 23, 2022)

I just finished polishing the cylinder for a MS661 that had a beyond scored piston. About an 1/8 inch radius of the exhaust side top of the piston was gone. Ideally one would replace the top end, but that is $425 . I couldn't get every trace of scratch out, but if I go any further I will run out of plating I'm afraid. The perfect is the enemy of the good sort of thing.

Not the point of this though. The intake boot, manifold , whatever you want to call it was in half. Dull chain, long bar, trying to get finished I suppose.

This is a $1500 saw being operated by a pro, and he can't hear that difference in RPM. Surely it lost power.

Makes you scratch your head.


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## bwalker (Nov 23, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I just finished polishing the cylinder for a MS661 that had a beyond scored piston. About an 1/8 inch radius of the exhaust side top of the piston was gone. Ideally one would replace the top end, but that is $425 . I couldn't get every trace of scratch out, but if I go any further I will run out of plating I'm afraid. The perfect is the enemy of the good sort of thing.
> 
> Not the point of this though. The intake boot, manifold , whatever you want to call it was in half. Dull chain, long bar, trying to get finished I suppose.
> 
> ...


Next time use acid. It won't remove the plating like sanding can.
Provided you don't have gouges above the exhaust port you will probably be ok.
Stihl 661 cylinder and piston kit can be had for $289 on Ebay.


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## rogue60 (Nov 23, 2022)

MikeRock said:


> I have only vintage Stihl saws. 031, 041, and 075's. All said, 'do not use high octane fuel'. Now, fifty years later, is what we know at the pump as 'high octane', similar in any way to the old gasoline? We all know the issues with ethanol, so I only run 'high octane' now. Am I helping my saws or are they slowly committing suicide by fuel? Oil, I mix 32:1 with high test gas and keep it two months, then it goes in the Ford.... I drain the saws, then start them, warm, to eliminate fuel in the system. Good or bad?
> God bless


That's another myth that never dies the one about high octane fuel burns slower and makes less power lol
High octane is fine to use in saws only downside is it usually costs more. The flame front burns just as fast as low octane and sometimes depending on the fuel high octane can have a faster burning flame front. The only thing high octane does different is having a better resistance to detonation it does not contain less "powers" as the myth would have us believe.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Next time use acid. It won't remove the plating like sanding can.
> Provided you don't have gouges above the exhaust port you will probably be ok.
> Stihl 661 cylinder and piston kit can be had for $289 on Ebay.


I did use muratic acid. About, four doses with a Q-tip with the cylinder heated. Some 400 grit, and Wigglesworth Scotch Brite method.
I've likely done 100 of these. This much transfer requires a lot of work. And, if you leave just a little it will get in a ring groove just as sure as the world.
But, all advice is appreciated.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 24, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> That's another myth that never dies the one about high octane fuel burns slower and makes less power lol
> High octane is fine to use in saws only downside is it usually costs more. The flame front burns just as fast as low octane and sometimes depending on the fuel high octane can have a faster burning flame front. The only thing high octane does different is having a better resistance to detention it does not contain less "powers" as the myth would have us believe.


Octane is nothing more than a knock rating with pure 2,2,4-Trimethylpentane setting the 100 standard. I forget what 1 is. But, it is a range of resistance to pre detonation or knocking. I think some of the highest ever used was in the WW II B-29 bombers, maybe others. Think it was around 140 and green. I used to buy 108 back in the day. It was purple.
You can run more compression and advanced timing . But, thinking it runs hotter or will burn up your whatever is incorrect.
I think I can still get 104 unleaded up the road, for a price.


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## Brushpile (Nov 24, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> That's another myth that never dies the one about high octane fuel burns slower and makes less power lol
> High octane is fine to use in saws only downside is it usually costs more. The flame front burns just as fast as low octane and sometimes depending on the fuel high octane can have a faster burning flame front. The only thing high octane does different is having a better resistance to detention it does not contain less "powers" as the myth would have us believe.


I've used 93 octane ethenol free and red armor 50/1 in all my echo equipment since 2015 and have no reason to do differently. Same equipment, ran quite hard at times, still cranks on first or second pull. That's a necessity with my neck issues. If it won't start quick I got no use for it. May eventually have to go all electric if that ever becomes a viable option. But for now...


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 24, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Octane is nothing more than a knock rating with pure 2,2,4-Trimethylpentane setting the 100 standard. I forget what 1 is. But, it is a range of resistance to pre detonation or knocking. I think some of the highest ever used was in the WW II B-29 bombers, maybe others. Think it was around 140 and green. I used to buy 108 back in the day. It was purple.
> You can run more compression and advanced timing . But, thinking it runs hotter or will burn up your whatever is incorrect.
> I think I can still get 104 unleaded up the road, for a price.



Heptane is zero octane.


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## Hermio (Nov 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Hermio, yes I do have doubts you are an engineer. If only because what you have said and and the logic you are using.


If what I said is not logical, prove it. And what are your qualifications, pray tell? You have knocked several people who have actually studied oils, and have knocked Project Farm, which, although one can question some of his methodology, it is far from rubbish. If anything, Todd of Project farm is extremely thorough and conscientious in all of his testing. In any case, I could certainly prove I am an engineer. You would probably not accept such proof, however. Your viewpoint is that anyone who disagrees with you cannot be an engineer, and you call their opinions rubbish or worse. Ironically, I did not entirely disagree with you. What I said is that there is an optimum oil mix ratio for a given combination of oil, engine and gasoline; that more oil is not better beyond a certain point. That is indisputable. I also said that I do not know what that ratio is, so I am inclined to trust manufacturer recommendations. For others who are interested in standard testing, I offer the following resources.
ISO Two-Cycle Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org



Standard Test Method for Determination of Lubricity of Two-Stroke-Cycle Gasoline Engine Lubricants (Withdrawn 2022) (astm.org)



Performance Test Methods for Two-Stroke Cycle Engine Lubricants Including Lean Fuel-Oil Ratio Conditions (sae.org)



Certification - TC-W3 (nmma.org)



Hey All (wdarc.org)



2T_2018_EV1912.pdf (jalos.or.jp)



Development of JASO 2-Stroke Engine Oil Standards (sae.org)



https://oilordering.com/product-detail/saber-professional-synthetic-2-stroke-oil/ (scroll down to the tests on this one)


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 24, 2022)

Those photos of the Amsoil Sabre internals comparison is quite interesting.

Everything on the right is what I am used to seeing.


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## huskihl (Nov 24, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Those photos of the Amsoil Sabre internals comparison is quite interesting.
> 
> Everything on the right is what I am used to seeing.


And Amsoil Dominator at 32:1 is still cleaner burning yet.


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## bwalker (Nov 24, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> That's another myth that never dies the one about high octane fuel burns slower and makes less power lol
> High octane is fine to use in saws only downside is it usually costs more. The flame front burns just as fast as low octane and sometimes depending on the fuel high octane can have a faster burning flame front. The only thing high octane does different is having a better resistance to detention it does not contain less "powers" as the myth would have us believe.


I've been preaching this exact thing on this site for years.. guys just can't let the old wives tales go. The other big one is high octane is more difficult to ignite. It's not.
Detonation takes exposure to heat and time. The faster you can get the combustion event over the less chance of detonation you have.


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## bwalker (Nov 24, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I did use muratic acid. About, four doses with a Q-tip with the cylinder heated. Some 400 grit, and Wigglesworth Scotch Brite method.
> I've likely done 100 of these. This much transfer requires a lot of work. And, if you leave just a little it will get in a ring groove just as sure as the world.
> But, all advice is appreciated.


If they are that bad I'd be looking at the ebay cylinder kit I mentioned..


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## bwalker (Nov 24, 2022)

Hermio said:


> If what I said is not logical, prove it. And what are your qualifications, pray tell? You have knocked several people who have actually studied oils, and have knocked Project Farm, which, although one can question some of his methodology, it is far from rubbish. If anything, Todd of Project farm is extremely thorough and conscientious in all of his testing. In any case, I could certainly prove I am an engineer. You would probably not accept such proof, however. Your viewpoint is that anyone who disagrees with you cannot be an engineer, and you call their opinions rubbish or worse. Ironically, I did not entirely disagree with you. What I said is that there is an optimum oil mix ratio for a given combination of oil, engine and gasoline; that more oil is not better beyond a certain point. That is indisputable. I also said that I do not know what that ratio is, so I am inclined to trust manufacturer recommendations. For others who are interested in standard testing, I offer the following resources.
> ISO Two-Cycle Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org
> 
> 
> ...


It's not logical to hype a home brewed test with poor methodology. In fact this would drive most engineers I know crazy.


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## skeet88 (Nov 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's not logical to hype a home brewed test with poor methodology. In fact this would drive most engineers I know crazy.


Not trying to be a smart axx , but what would you recommend for a proper test to compare mix ratios? You may have already mentioned it , if so I will go back and try to find it. Be Safe!


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If they are that bad I'd be looking at the ebay cylinder kit I mentioned..


 I doubt you could get one back in shape, but I can .


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## MikeRock (Nov 25, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> The best fuel you can run in your saws is ethanol-free. The octane rating doesn't mean squat until you reach a compression high enough that detonation becomes an issue.


Thank you, that is what I hoped. Now I wish we could add the lead back in, but the greenies would have a heart attack..... so let's go for it!!
Thanks again,
God bless,
Mike


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## MikeRock (Nov 25, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> That's another myth that never dies the one about high octane fuel burns slower and makes less power lol
> High octane is fine to use in saws only downside is it usually costs more. The flame front burns just as fast as low octane and sometimes depending on the fuel high octane can have a faster burning flame front. The only thing high octane does different is having a better resistance to detention it does not contain less "powers" as the myth would have us believe.


Again, my thanks.


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## bwalker (Nov 25, 2022)

skeet88 said:


> Not trying to be a smart axx , but what would you recommend for a proper test to compare mix ratios? You may have already mentioned it , if so I will go back and try to find it. Be Safe!


 I would start by adding data loggers to saws used in a professional manner. Say 50 with loggers and 50 with arborists. I would then compare operating conditions, IE throttle opening, CHT, EGT etc. I would use this data to set up a test regime using variable load water break dynos. I then would set up a test using climate controlled dynos with 15 or more engines. They would be fueled with reference fuel of the same lot number. The load on the test engines would be variable to mimic real life use. I would also run the tests to 300 hours. Tear down and document, then run then test another 300 hours and repeat until failure.
Even doing this you wouldn't get real life results, but you should see a trend.
Next I would send 15 more controlled carb saws with each ratio to the field with reference fuel and run an extended field test with the same hours run and tear down schedule to confirm what was observed under controlled conditions. 
No one is going to do this though. To much cost for not enough benefit.
Instead you get half baked tests like Amsoil did that's posted above.


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## bwalker (Nov 25, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I doubt you could get one back in shape, but I can .


I've used the acid trick before to save one off ported cylinders or those that are no longer available.
I wouldn't waste my time doing such when I new OEM piston and cylinder kit can be had for less than $300 bucks.
It's not a flex to half ass chit together. And it's certainly not a flex to fix a two stroke chainsaw as they are dead simple..


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 25, 2022)

I've seen back to back dyno tests on a Ninja 900 that lost 3-4 RWHP going from 94 octane Sunoco to Cam 2 106 octane leaded race fuel. I suppose it could have been the lead displacing fuel, since we didn't have ethanol or MBTE in those days, but from that point on I was lead to believe that you'll lose a little power using a higher octane than the engine needs.


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## bwalker (Nov 25, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> I've seen back to back dyno tests on a Ninja 900 that lost 3-4 RWHP going from 94 octane Sunoco to Cam 2 106 octane leaded race fuel. I suppose it could have been the lead displacing fuel, since we didn't have ethanol or MBTE in those days, but from that point on I was lead to believe that you'll lose a little power using a higher octane than the engine needs.


Most likely do to the distillation curve of the fuel and not the octane.
Many two strokes lose power on race fuels that have distillation curves not optimized for a two cycle motor.
It's this reason that companies like VP sell many different fuels for different applications.


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## MacAttack (Nov 25, 2022)

There seems to be a theme on this thread among some folks that "50:1 or 40:1 are OK for the occasional homeowner use, but less than 32:1 is going to wipe out the bearings with professional, daily use" or to that effect.
When I worked at a tree service, all we EVER used were the 50:1 bottles of Husky XP oil in a gallon gas can in EVERYTHING. And Im talking Husky 332 climbing saws, 357xp and 372xp ground saws, some older 272's, and a 3120. Those saws got the PISS ran out of them day after day, month after month, for years, and there was never a bottom-end failure. Hours upon hours bucking up big old cottonwoods, elm, spruce and whatever we were dropping. 
That's my firsthand experience, doesn't mean 32:1 couldn't make them last even longer though, but more use than the average guy would ever put on his bottom end bearings.


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## Sawdust Man (Nov 25, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> There seems to be a theme on this thread among some folks that "50:1 or 40:1 are OK for the occasional homeowner use, but less than 32:1 is going to wipe out the bearings with professional, daily use" or to that effect.
> When I worked at a tree service, all we EVER used were the 50:1 bottles of Husky XP oil in a gallon gas can in EVERYTHING. And Im talking Husky 332 climbing saws, 357xp and 372xp ground saws, some older 272's, and a 3120. Those saws got the PISS ran out of them day after day, month after month, for years, and there was never a bottom-end failure. Hours upon hours bucking up big old cottonwoods, elm, spruce and whatever we were dropping.
> That's my firsthand experience, doesn't mean 32:1 couldn't make them last even longer though, but more use than the average guy would ever put on his bottom end bearings.


This pretty much sums up my personal experience as well...
Husky or even Stihl oil, mixed at 50:1. Run the saws for hours a day full time for years never had a problem with premature death of saws.....


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I've used the acid trick before to save one off ported cylinders or those that are no longer available.
> I wouldn't waste my time doing such when I new OEM piston and cylinder kit can be had for less than $300 bucks.
> It's not a flex to half ass chit together. And it's certainly not a flex to fix a two stroke chainsaw as they are dead simple..


Whatever. I would rather fix one for $49 myself.

I'll go back on that a little. This saw is very, very much used.
If it was like new and straight gassed or something I would put a new OEM top end on it.
Lot of depends in all of this.


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## bwalker (Nov 25, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> There seems to be a theme on this thread among some folks that "50:1 or 40:1 are OK for the occasional homeowner use, but less than 32:1 is going to wipe out the bearings with professional, daily use" or to that effect.
> When I worked at a tree service, all we EVER used were the 50:1 bottles of Husky XP oil in a gallon gas can in EVERYTHING. And Im talking Husky 332 climbing saws, 357xp and 372xp ground saws, some older 272's, and a 3120. Those saws got the PISS ran out of them day after day, month after month, for years, and there was never a bottom-end failure. Hours upon hours bucking up big old cottonwoods, elm, spruce and whatever we were dropping.
> That's my firsthand experience, doesn't mean 32:1 couldn't make them last even longer though, but more use than the average guy would ever put on his bottom end bearings.


Most of the bottom end failures started with the move to strato charging, although 372's and 385's did have some.
I've always ran 32:1 because there isn't a downside other than cost and there are several upsides. You do you. With the hours most guys on this site accumulate on their saws they don't have to worry about premature wear or bearing failures regardless of ratio used. However if they used 32:1 they woukd make slightly more power and have more residual oil for corrosion protection, which is a significant deal for saws not ran daily.
One other thing. Tree work isn't as hard on saws as cutting firewood or logging based on the hours a saw is run in a day of each.


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## Bjorn T (Nov 25, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> There seems to be a theme on this thread among some folks that "50:1 or 40:1 are OK for the occasional homeowner use, but less than 32:1 is going to wipe out the bearings with professional, daily use" or to that effect.
> When I worked at a tree service, all we EVER used were the 50:1 bottles of Husky XP oil in a gallon gas can in EVERYTHING. And Im talking Husky 332 climbing saws, 357xp and 372xp ground saws, some older 272's, and a 3120. Those saws got the PISS ran out of them day after day, month after month, for years, and there was never a bottom-end failure. Hours upon hours bucking up big old cottonwoods, elm, spruce and whatever we were dropping.
> That's my firsthand experience, doesn't mean 32:1 couldn't make them last even longer though, but more use than the average guy would ever put on his bottom end bearings.


Hello, all saws you mention is good old saws. But try the new saws with x-torq and auto tune is more sensitive. 32:1 in the new modells Will make them hold longer.


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## bwalker (Nov 25, 2022)

Bjorn T said:


> Hello, all saws you mention is good old saws. But try the new saws with x-torq and auto tune is more sensitive. 32:1 in the new modells Will make them hold longer.


It has nothing to do with autotune or mtronic.
It has to due with strato charging. Strato engines have heavier pistons and they are less lubricated than a traditional two stroke.


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## Tomos770 (Nov 25, 2022)

7days old video...


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## Bjorn T (Nov 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It has nothing to do with autotune or mtronic.
> It has to due with strato charging. Strato engines have heavier pistons and they are less lubricated than a traditional two stroke.


Sorry, I was thinking that almost all autotune or mtronic saws have Strato ports. And I agree that heavy piston and less lubrikation is very bad for bearings and give more cylinder and piston Wear.


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## KASH (Nov 25, 2022)

I am a union construction electrician and here is what I know.
When a engineer makes a mistake it is called a revision but when I make a mistake it is called a F//k Up.
I learned early in the trade that one Oh F//k wipes out twenty Atta Boys.
Kash


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## Stihl 041S (Nov 25, 2022)

And what does stihl say about 25:1?

I’ll would surprise some. They tell you to do it for most of you folks. Most

Prove me wrong.


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## skeet88 (Nov 26, 2022)

KASH said:


> I am a union construction electrician and here is what I know.
> When a engineer makes a mistake it is called a revision but when I make a mistake it is called a F//k Up.
> I learned early in the trade that one Oh F//k wipes out twenty Atta Boys.
> Kash


Boy I am screwed now! I was always told it was 10 Atta Boys . When I was a volunteer firefighter the Chief told me if I got 10 Atta Boys he would give me my Firefighter 101 certificate but 1 Ah  wiped them out.I think the highest I got was 2 Atta Boys!  Be Safe!


----------



## camel2019 (Nov 26, 2022)

Stihl 041S said:


> And what does stihl say about 25:1?
> 
> I’ll would surprise some. They tell you to do it for most of you folks. Most
> 
> Prove me wrong.


Stihl manuals used to say something along the lines of mix 50:1 with Stihl oil and 25:1 with all other brands. My biggest thing about oil and home owners seem to think that it’s magic in a bottle the oil will mix at the ratio on the bottle into whatever amount of gas is in the can.


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

Old high hr worked hard early ms880 25:1 mineral oil and lots of sawdust fines lol
Performing better than some of the expensive top tier synthetics by the looks  
Saw was sitting for bout a year before I pulled it down for a look all the crank oil had pooled in the bottom of the crankcase in that time.
I better add NO I wouldn't run synthetics at 25:1 that'd be called overkill it would be spuing straight oil out the exhaust what a mess lol


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

Carbon what carbon has never even had the spark arrester cleaned in all them years lol


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## Tomos770 (Nov 26, 2022)

Nice pattern on the piston top


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## Lawless (Nov 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I've always ran 32:1 because there isn't a downside other than cost and there are several upsides. You do you. With the hours most guys on this site accumulate on their saws they don't have to worry about premature wear or bearing failures regardless of ratio used. However if they used 32:1 they woukd make slightly more power and have more residual oil for corrosion protection, which is a significant deal for saws not ran daily.


I think this is the ultimate truth from all of this. We have to as individuals decide what we’re comfortable doing and then live with it. It isn’t life or death….just a chainsaw. Red Armor I think from 50:1 - 32:1 will be fine and not ruin lives. 

I did decide to change my practices based on some things I read here but not really based on fear I was damaging engines. There just does not seem to be a downside to using more oil than I was. Cheap insurance is a good thing, possibly more power and better storage is a bonus.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 26, 2022)

I think I am going to try some Amsoil.. Ninety percent of what I mix ends up dumped in a 55 gallon drum, but I do cut a little firewood and cleanup around the fields.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

Lawless said:


> I think this is the ultimate truth from all of this. We have to as individuals decide what we’re comfortable doing and then live with it. It isn’t life or death….just a chainsaw. Red Armor I think from 50:1 - 32:1 will be fine and not ruins lives.
> 
> I did decide to change my practices based on some things I read here but not really based on fear I was damaging engines. There just does not seem to be a downside to using more oil than I was. Cheap insurance is a good thing, possibly more power and better storage is a bonus.


Red Armour is a pretty unique in that the amount of residual oil it leaves behind is amazing for reasons I can't wrap my mind around. I would not worry at all about running it at 50:1 and 40:1 leaves more residual than many oils do at 32:1.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Old high hr worked hard early ms880 25:1 mineral oil and lots of sawdust fines lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's about what I would expect from a high hour saw ran at 25:1. Looks pretty damn good.
Synthetic gets thrown around alot and guys think it means alot. It doesn't. The majority of oils now are at least partially synthetic and many of those advertised as synthetic are only partially synthetic, which isn't a bad thing. There are downsides to straight synthetic oils.
In @Rougue60 case I would not be afraid to use certain synthetic oils at 25:1. I also would not run certain synthetics at that ratio for the reason he mentions. They can just end up getting puked out the exhaust and foul up your spark screen, muffler and exhaust port in the process.


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

Ms661 mtronic tune fine on 25:1 I actually prefer the leaner 1st coil than the fatter later coils.
Here's one shown no mercy worked hard high hrs same mineral oil very pampered looked after saw yeah nah not really they love fines lol




I wiped all the oil off to get clear pics of the piston.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Ms661 mtronic tune fine on 25:1 I actually prefer the leaner 1st coil than the fatter later coils.
> Here's one shown no mercy worked hard high hrs same mineral oil very pampered looked after saw yeah nah not really they love fines lol
> View attachment 1035050
> View attachment 1035051
> ...


I'm not sure where the idea that Mtronic or Autotune can't deal with a change in oil ratio. IME both systems certainly can.


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm not sure where the idea that Mtronic or Autotune can't deal with a change in oil ratio. IME both systems certainly can.


I don't have any experience with smaller mtronic saws or whatever it is husky run but the ms661 tunes fine on 25:1 mineral oil.
In saying that I'd take a tunable carb any day I actually like tuning.


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## Bjorn T (Nov 26, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> I don't have any experience with smaller mtronic saws or whatever it is husky run but the ms661 tunes fine on 25:1 mineral oil.
> In saying that I'd take a tunable carb any day I actually like tuning.


Hello, which mineral oil are you using?


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## Hermio (Nov 26, 2022)

MikeRock said:


> Thank you, that is what I hoped. Now I wish we could add the lead back in, but the greenies would have a heart attack..... so let's go for it!!
> Thanks again,
> God bless,
> Mike


You really do not want the lead back in! It was bad enough when cars burned it, but a chainsaw user breathes the saw's exhaust at a far higher concentration than motorists do. Lead causes brain damage. Also, today's machines do not need it. They are built of better materials.


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## Hermio (Nov 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's not logical to hype a home brewed test with poor methodology. In fact this would drive most engineers I know crazy.


What I suggested was sfar from a home brewed test. I suggested tests done on a dyno to keep conditions as constant as possible. And the methodology I suggested was absolutely sound. It is clear that you have no idea what science or engineering are all about.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

Hermio said:


> What I suggested was sfar from a home brewed test. I suggested tests done on a dyno to keep conditions as constant as possible. And the methodology I suggested was absolutely sound. It is clear that you have no idea what science or engineering are all about.


I was referring to your apparent affinity for hacks on youtube...
Dyno testing as you suggest has already been done.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

Hermio said:


> You really do not want the lead back in! It was bad enough when cars burned it, but a chainsaw user breathes the saw's exhaust at a far higher concentration than motorists do. Lead causes brain damage. Also, today's machines do not need it. They are built of better materials.


Hermio, is right. You don't want leaded gas again and as he mentioned you do inhale it while running a saw. No amount of ingested lead is safe.
Although today's saws are not really built with vastly different materials and saw engines never needed leaded gas.


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## Hermio (Nov 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I was referring to your apparent affinity for hacks on youtube...
> Dyno testing as you suggest has already been done.


We will have to disagree on whether Todd at Project Farm is a "hack". I find his testing to be very helpful, though I may disagree with some of his methods. But some are extremely quantitative, such as how much torque a wrench can withstand before breaking, how abrasion resistant gloves are, etc.
I have looked for dyno testing specific to oil ratios used in 2-cycle engines, and I was unable to find a detailed study of the subject in the manner I suggested. All I wa able to find was studies that concluded certain oils met ASTM standards even at 100:1, but they did not examine effect on power or long-term wear.


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## Hermio (Nov 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Hermio, is right. You don't want leaded gas again and as he mentioned you do inhale it while running a saw. No amount of ingested lead is safe.
> Although today's saws are not really built with vastly different materials and saw engines never needed leaded gas.


Biggest difference in automotive engines is the use of hard-surfaced valves, so they do not need the lubricity afforded by lead oxide.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Biggest difference in automotive engines is the use of hard-surfaced valves, so they do not need the lubricity afforded by lead oxide.


Lead was never a lubricant. The oxide it laid down on the valve seat and face acted as a cushion to prevent the seats from getting hammered.
Two strokes never needed this and saws have always been low compression engines so lead is of zero benefit to them.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

Hermio said:


> We will have to disagree on whether Todd at Project Farm is a "hack". I find his testing to be very helpful, though I may disagree with some of his methods. But some are extremely quantitative, such as how much torque a wrench can withstand before breaking, how abrasion resistant gloves are, etc.
> I have looked for dyno testing specific to oil ratios used in 2-cycle engines, and I was unable to find a detailed study of the subject in the manner I suggested. All I wa able to find was studies that concluded certain oils met ASTM standards even at 100:1, but they did not examine effect on power or long-term wear.


There was an SAE paper written sometime in the late 70's to early 80's. I no longer have a copy of such.
There has been writing on the subject by experts like Jennings(who ran a dyno test using a suzuki motorcycle), Bell and others. They all have came to the same conclusion. More oil makes more power and lessens wear. Air cooled Karts using Yamaha KT-100 engines frequently run at 16:1 and I have inspected those engines. If tuned right they are very clean.
Most any two cycle oil will not cause an immediate failure if used at 100:1. Negative effects are chronic and not acute in nature.
ASTM hasn't had an updated two cycle oil standard since the 80's. It was known as API TC. Long absolete and recently withdrawn completely. JASO and ISO have newer two cycle "air cooled" oil standards that came about in the late 90's. JASO FD and ISO EGD. The NMMA has TCW3 for marine engines that was last updated around the same time.


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## Gabriel1982 (Nov 26, 2022)

Leaded gasoline was used because of other reasons in 4 stroke engines! And lead was released in air,lead did acumulated in bodies,especially brain ,reducing IQ, esentially dumbing anyone down over time! 
2 stroke gas engines( not 2 stroke diesels) need a synthetic high temperature high revs oil that can still maintain a protecting film in between engine parts! There are quite a few synthetic good oil manufacturers around! No need for lead in gasoline, AGAIN...


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## Stihl 041S (Nov 26, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Stihl manuals used to say something along the lines of mix 50:1 with Stihl oil and 25:1 with all other brands. My biggest thing about oil and home owners seem to think that it’s magic in a bottle the oil will mix at the ratio on the bottle into whatever amount of gas is in the can.



You got it Ol buddy. Any mix is how ya tune it. 
I’ve mixed 10:1 in an outboard……..per brass plate. 30 wt non detergent 
An oil thread is a Chevy/ford/dodge thing. 
People can voice an opinion. 
Few if anybody has had their mind changed. 

If you started a thread on whose mind had been changed by an Oil Thread…….it would become an oil thread. Lol

There was a thread years ago about how you shouldn’t drop start a saw. 

Egos raged!!!!!

I started a Paul Harvey thread”The Rest Of The Story…….”
“Who has been injured drop starting a saw………short thread. 


Most people think of their response instead of what the poster is saying. 

Most. …….not all. 
Have a good one Ol Buddy.


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## Stihl 041S (Nov 26, 2022)

I remember the Suzuki test. Made more power. Maybe in a 2 stroke guide?


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## camel2019 (Nov 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I think I am going to try some Amsoil.. Ninety percent of what I mix ends up dumped in a 55 gallon drum, but I do cut a little firewood and cleanup around the fields.


That’s just a waste of fuel. My old mix gets dumped in one of the trucks a couple litres of mix into a tank that’s half full doesn’t make much difference.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

Stihl 041S said:


> You got it Ol buddy. Any mix is how ya tune it.
> I’ve mixed 10:1 in an outboard……..per brass plate. 30 wt non detergent
> An oil thread is a Chevy/ford/dodge thing.
> People can voice an opinion.
> ...


If most guys would just run a real deal Jaso FC or FD certified oil, tune their saw properly and run sharp chain they would be better off.
No boat oil/stihl oil/scammer oils that claim their oil "meets", no rocked out chains, carb tuning every time the saw is run, etc.
I still believe 32:1 is cheap insurance with no down sides..


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 26, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> That’s just a waste of fuel. My old mix gets dumped in one of the trucks a couple litres of mix into a tank that’s half full doesn’t make much difference.


Recycler gonna come get it anyway. Most of it is not my equipment, but something I am working on.
Find some strange stuff in the bottom of tanks. I put it in to slosh around and get the crap out.


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## bwalker (Nov 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> Recycler gonna come get it anyway. Most of it is not my equipment, but something I am working on.
> Find some strange stuff in the bottom of tanks. I put it in to slosh around and get the crap out.


I wouldn't run mystery gas either.


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

Bjorn T said:


> Hello, which mineral oil are you using?


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

This pampered 066 has thousands of hard working hrs on it.
Believe it or not oils main job is preventing metal to metal contact if I had saws with worn thin piston skirts that's an oil problem to little or the oil is crap.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 26, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> This pampered 066 has thousands of hard working hrs on it.
> Believe it or not oils main job is preventing metal to metal contact if I had saws with worn thin piston skirts that's an oil problem to little or the oil is crap.
> 
> View attachment 1035314
> ...



You be careful posting all these pics with fines in carb throats and dust packed in every orifice..... the keyboard warriors will be suggesting you go buy a 2 in 1 tool!


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## sean donato (Nov 26, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> You be careful posting all these pics with fines in carb throats and dust packed in every orifice..... the keyboard warriors will be suggesting you go but a 2 in 1 tool!


Maybe an air compressor to blow his saw out every now and then.


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 26, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Maybe an air compressor to blow his saw out every now and then.



Mate, have you seen the size of Australia? How little of it is populated and how little of it has mains power supply?
Would need to be a petrol (gas for you non English speakers) powered compressor and it would just confuse the average Aussie as it is likely to be powered by a 4 stroke engine.


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> You be careful posting all these pics with fines in carb throats and dust packed in every orifice..... the keyboard warriors will be suggesting you go buy a 2 in 1 tool!


Yeah I know but I don't cut rolled up foam mattress I wish


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Maybe an air compressor to blow his saw out every now and then.


I do every so often it doesn't take long for a saw to get filthy used for hrs on end daily in tough going.


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## rogue60 (Nov 26, 2022)

I run my chains backwards they last longer.
Cosmetics mean nothing it's what's going on in the inside of a saw that matters. I've seen waxed polished saws painstakingly cleaned with cotton buds with scored pistons lol


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## trains (Nov 26, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1035311


Yep, what ive been using for years too, buy it by the 20l drum.
Have some older drums that was going by the older name, but it was only a few years ago now, not ages ago they changed its name to garden 2t.


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## Husky77 (Nov 26, 2022)

Many years ago I always used oregon 2 stroke oil, I believe it was semi synthetic but not 100% sure, it was in 80's. Saw was used regular for limbing (husqvarna 254) very reliable and never any trouble. The saw was stored and not used probably 20 years, started it rabbit cutting some wood and thought it would be a good time to strip it give it a good clean and put a new piston in it just because I had a new one in the box. Took the cylinder off and couldnt believe how good the piston was and a nice coating of oil inside. It was always run 50/1 and looked after. Still use that saw but now with fully synthetic, still runs clean not as much oil inside but no wear. All the talk of this oil is better than that oil makes me think today's oils are much better than years ago but "maybe" the fuel is much worse. I cant remember fuel lines failing anywhere near as fast as they do these days but of course that could be down to the rubber also? 
Like a lot of things these days, we are "told" this is best that is best and being gullible humans we all go along with it. If you read its right then it has to be right......right


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 26, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> it doesn't take long for a saw to get filthy.


Understatement of the century. The first time I cut dry Jarrah was with an 076 Super and I was amazed at how much dust is produced, even with a decent chain. It blanket coats everything.


----------



## Tomos770 (Nov 27, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1035311


Could be anything....from Castrol garden, Castrol Go 2T, Go! 2T, Castrol Act Evo 2T, Castrol 2T.....

There are even diferences between USA vs EU version of the same Castrol (understandable)

Garden USA&Australia has TBN of 3.58(!??) while EU version has TBN of 1.52? Could be a typo... 






Castrol - PDS & MSDS Search


The MSDS/PDS tool aims to provide the users access to material safety and product data sheets and satisfy Castrol's legal requirement to publish.




msdspds.castrol.com


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## Tomos770 (Nov 27, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> Many years ago I always used oregon 2 stroke oil, I believe it was semi synthetic but not 100% sure, it was in 80's. Saw was used regular for limbing (husqvarna 254) very reliable and never any trouble. The saw was stored and not used probably 20 years, started it rabbit cutting some wood and thought it would be a good time to strip it give it a good clean and put a new piston in it just because I had a new one in the box. Took the cylinder off and couldnt believe how good the piston was and a nice coating of oil inside. It was always run 50/1 and looked after. Still use that saw but now with fully synthetic, still runs clean not as much oil inside but no wear. All the talk of this oil is better than that oil makes me think today's oils are much better than years ago but "maybe" the fuel is much worse. I cant remember fuel lines failing anywhere near as fast as they do these days but of course that could be down to the rubber also?
> Like a lot of things these days, we are "told" this is best that is best and being gullible humans we all go along with it. If you read its right then it has to be right......right


Things of that era were more or less of domestic production....not like today.....made in PRC.....

Here in EU in the 80s if you saw stamp/label on thing "made in WEST Germany" you could be sure that that thing will outlive you


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## Tedster2 (Nov 27, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Stihl manuals used to say something along the lines of mix 50:1 with Stihl oil and 25:1 with all other brands. My biggest thing about oil and home owners seem to think that it’s magic in a bottle the oil will mix at the ratio on the bottle into whatever amount of gas is in the can.


And Toyota manuals used to say change the oil at 10,000 and the filter at 20,000. Lol


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## Lawless (Nov 27, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Understatement of the century. The first time I cut dry Jarrah was with an 076 Super and I was amazed at how much dust is produced, even with a decent chain. It blanket coats everything.


Does that mess make you itch? Looks like it would get in your skin like fiberglass 🫤


----------



## Hermio (Nov 27, 2022)

Stihl 041S said:


> And what does stihl say about 25:1?
> 
> I’ll would surprise some. They tell you to do it for most of you folks. Most
> 
> Prove me wrong.


My Stihl owner's manual says 50:1.


----------



## Hermio (Nov 27, 2022)

KASH said:


> I am a union construction electrician and here is what I know.
> When a engineer makes a mistake it is called a revision but when I make a mistake it is called a F//k Up.
> I learned early in the trade that one Oh F//k wipes out twenty Atta Boys.
> Kash


As an engineer, I have been told I f'ed up a few times.


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## Lawless (Nov 27, 2022)

Hermio said:


> My Stihl owner's manual says 50:1.


I think they say 50:1 if you use Ultra, 25:1 otherwise, which is admittedly a dubious statement.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 27, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> Many years ago I always used oregon 2 stroke oil, I believe it was semi synthetic but not 100% sure, it was in 80's. Saw was used regular for limbing (husqvarna 254) very reliable and never any trouble. The saw was stored and not used probably 20 years, started it rabbit cutting some wood and thought it would be a good time to strip it give it a good clean and put a new piston in it just because I had a new one in the box. Took the cylinder off and couldnt believe how good the piston was and a nice coating of oil inside. It was always run 50/1 and looked after. Still use that saw but now with fully synthetic, still runs clean not as much oil inside but no wear. All the talk of this oil is better than that oil makes me think today's oils are much better than years ago but "maybe" the fuel is much worse. I cant remember fuel lines failing anywhere near as fast as they do these days but of course that could be down to the rubber also?
> Like a lot of things these days, we are "told" this is best that is best and being gullible humans we all go along with it. If you read its right then it has to be right......right


The pump fuels are atrocious , you have to be selective !


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 27, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Does that mess make you itch? Looks like it would get in your skin like fiberglass 🫤


Na, at least not Jarrah. That would really suck lol


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## rogue60 (Nov 27, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Does that mess make you itch? Looks like it would get in your skin like fiberglass 🫤


Depends of the type of timber if it's dry or green and the wind direction but yeah can make ya throat dry ya nose burn and feels like sand in ya eyes at times lol


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## Hermio (Nov 27, 2022)

Lawless said:


> I think they say 50:1 if you use Ultra, 25:1 otherwise, which is admittedly a dubious statement.


They may say that on some models. My MS500i manual says 50:1; no mention of other ratios. They also say to dump the fuel after 30 days unless using Stihl Ultra. I go 6-9 months sometimes, but I add StaBil to the fuel. Might be unnecessary with some oils. Stihl also says 10% ethanol is OK, but not more. I do not have any stations that sell ethanol-free fuel around here, but I have not had fuel problems in the last 40 years.


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## Bjorn T (Nov 27, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1035311


I cant find that in Sweden. But I use this oil, 32:1 for Protection and performanc.


----------



## Stihl 041S (Nov 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If most guys would just run a real deal Jaso FC or FD certified oil, tune their saw properly and run sharp chain they would be better off.
> No boat oil/stihl oil/scammer oils that claim their oil "meets", no rocked out chains, carb tuning every time the saw is run, etc.
> I still believe 32:1 is cheap insurance with no down a friend at work wh


Gimme the saw.
I clean it and the filter and grease the bearing and grind the chain.


bwalker said:


> If most guys would just run a real deal Jaso FC or FD certified oil, tune their saw properly and run sharp chain they would be better off.
> No boat oil/stihl oil/scammer oils that claim their oil "meets", no rocked out chains, carb tuning every time the saw is run, etc.
> I still believe 32:1 is cheap insurance with no down sides..


if a friend at work has a dull chain I’ll grind it. They are friends. 
But I say “bring in the saw”
Gets cleaned. Filter cleaned…..some are…..you know. And grease the clutch bearings. 

They use it and think I did a tune up or something…..

Sharp chain……sharp chain. Soon as they start to dull. Bring it in!!!!!

I use 40:1 ……Dean, Brad and Randy suggested it. 
They ported my saws……


----------



## Tomos770 (Nov 27, 2022)

Bjorn T said:


> I cant find that in Sweden. But I use this oil, 32:1 for Protection and performanc.


Thats the oil wich superseded famous Castrol TTS


----------



## sean donato (Nov 27, 2022)

Bob Hedgecutter said:


> Mate, have you seen the size of Australia? How little of it is populated and how little of it has mains power supply?
> Would need to be a petrol (gas for you non English speakers) powered compressor and it would just confuse the average Aussie as it is likely to be powered by a 4 stroke engine.


Lol, I was having a poke at him. Always ragged on the dozer operators when I had to work on them thay they didn't know what soap and water was.. hard to keep the inside crap free if the out side is covered and you crack it open.


----------



## rogue60 (Nov 28, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Lol, I was having a poke at him. Always ragged on the dozer operators when I had to work on them thay they didn't know what soap and water was.. hard to keep the inside crap free if the out side is covered and you crack it open.


Yeah to give em a good clean I hit em with degreaser and the high pressure gurney good as new


----------



## Bob Hedgecutter (Nov 28, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Lol, I was having a poke at him. Always ragged on the dozer operators when I had to work on them thay they didn't know what soap and water was.. hard to keep the inside crap free if the out side is covered and you crack it open.



Like I was missing the chance to poke an Aussie with a sharpish stick?


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

Well I come on here every now and then and this thread made me join because this has gotten completely out of hand but might as well throw some more fuel on the fire no pun intended what do you petroleum engineers think of running leaded fuel. I have ran the same mix I always ran in my bikes and my 440 and 024 love it and completely understand it's not cost effective as all for you professionals but I run 40:1 klotz and Sunoco 110 standard.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 28, 2022)

As I said in the other thread you posted in, I'm not running leaded fuel in anything that exhausts where I'm breathing. Full stop, do not pass go, just not doing it. I'd run ethanol fuel before I run leaded fuel.


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> As I said in the other thread you posted in, I'm not running leaded fuel in anything that exhausts where I'm breathing. Full stop, do not pass go, just not doing it. I'd run ethanol fuel before I run leaded fuel.


You ingest worse chemicals through plastic and Teflon. But you point is understandable as a heavy equipment mechanic and a guy that reloads, casts bullets, smokes and drinks beer the leaded fuel isn't high on my list not so long ago when you went to the race track it's all you could smell and the hard core 2 stroke racers still run it


----------



## ZeroJunk (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> You ingest worse chemicals through plastic and Teflon. But you point is understandable as a heavy equipment mechanic and a guy that reloads, casts bullets, smokes and drinks beer the leaded fuel isn't high on my list not so long ago when you went to the race track it's all you could smell and the hard core 2 stroke racers still run it


Yeah. I guess I breathed it for 40 years. May be what's wrong with me.


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> You ingest worse chemicals through plastic and Teflon. But you point is understandable as a heavy equipment mechanic and a guy that reloads, casts bullets, smokes and drinks beer the leaded fuel isn't high on my list not so long ago when you went to the race track it's all you could smell and the hard core 2 stroke racers still run it


That's BS logic.
Lead is really nasty and there isn't a single good reason to use it. Sunoco 110 isn't well suited to a 2 stroke and your probably making less power to boot.
I work in a refinery and have worked in heavy industry my whole career. This isn't a good reason to ingest further crap in the form of lead.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> You ingest worse chemicals through plastic and Teflon.



Bull ****.



Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> But you point is understandable as a heavy equipment mechanic and a guy that reloads, casts bullets, smokes and drinks beer the leaded fuel isn't high on my list not so long ago when you went to the race track it's all you could smell and the hard core 2 stroke racers still run it



Plenty of toxins are cumulative. That you've been exposed to lots before, is all the more reason to avoid further exposure.

Go ahead and run leaded fuel, makes zero difference to me.


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## KRP (Nov 28, 2022)

Where in the State of Ohio can you purchase leaded fuel or an additive that makes fuel leaded? Just curious.


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

KRP said:


> Where in the State of Ohio can you purchase leaded fuel or an additive that makes fuel leaded? Just curious.


Any fuel distributor or if you want to over pay you can buy 5 gallon cans of it at most Sunoco stations around here


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

KRP said:


> Where in the State of Ohio can you purchase leaded fuel or an additive that makes fuel leaded? Just curious.


I can pull my truck right up to the pumps at the airport and buy 100LL avgas or can buy a plethora of different leaded fuels from the local oil distributor. In some places you can buy leaded rave gas from the pump. It's available.
It also makes zero sense and is of zero benefit in a saw.


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I can pull my truck right up to the pumps at the airport and buy 100LL avgas or can buy a plethora of different leaded fuels from the local oil distributor. In some places you can buy leaded rave gas from the pump. It's available.
> It also makes zero sense and is of zero benefit in a saw.


Lead is a lubricant


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> Lead is a lubricant


No it's not... that's an old wives tail.
The deposites from burning leaded fuel build up on the valves and seats of four cycle engines. Back in the day the cushion these deposits provided made the valves last much longer with the soft seat materials then in use. It was never about lubrication.


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> Lead is a lubricant


No it's not... that's an old wives tail.
The deposites from burning leaded fuel build up on the valves and seats of four cycle engines. Back in the day the cushion these deposits provided made the valves last much longer with the soft seat materials then in use. It was never about lubrication. It was in fact used because it is and was the cheapest octane booster known to man. This was pretty important given the refining technology back in the 1930's.


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No it's not... that's an old wives tail.
> The deposites from burning leaded fuel build up on the valves and seats of four cycle engines. Back in the day the cushion these deposits provided made the valves last much longer with the soft seat materials then in use. It was never about lubrication.


This dude is the snot rocket king has been riding kx's while I was still in diapers I have built two 250's and a 125 with his advice. No issues with oil suspension. Now unleaded I have


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No it's not... that's an old wives tail.
> The deposites from burning leaded fuel build up on the valves and seats of four cycle engines. Back in the day the cushion these deposits provided made the valves last much longer with the soft seat materials then in use. It was never about lubrication. It was in fact used because it is and was the cheapest octane booster known to man. This was pretty important given the refining technology back in the 1930's.


Yes you are correct on it also boosting the octane because of it slowing the burn rate.


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## Ohio Chainsaw Massacre (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> Yes you are correct on it also boosting the octane because of it slowing the burn rate.


Like I said I understand the health issue with the lead but I'm not riding bikes or running a saw for hours on end 7 days a week for me it's proven everything 2 stroke I own starts everytime I don't have overheating issues or eating pistons and bearings. I don't dont baby any of them


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> Yes you are correct on it also boosting the octane because of it slowing the burn rate.


Another old wives tale. 
Lead does not slow burn rate and higher octane fuel doesn't burn slower...


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> Like I said I understand the health issue with the lead but I'm not riding bikes or running a saw for hours on end 7 days a week for me it's proven everything 2 stroke I own starts everytime I don't have overheating issues or eating pistons and bearings. I don't dont baby any of them


I have none of those issues and I don't use leaded fuel...


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## bwalker (Nov 28, 2022)

Ohio Chainsaw Massacre said:


> This dude is the snot rocket king has been riding kx's while I was still in diapers I have built two 250's and a 125 with his advice. No issues with oil suspension. Now unleaded I have


The only thing I get from your "king" is he doesn't really understand jetting or fuels for MX bikes.
He is right about ethanol causing issues with crank seals. That's nothing new.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 29, 2022)

I don't see the point in going out of my way and inconveniencing myself, so that I can pay more, for a fuel that provides no benefit for my equipment, and is also toxic to me to run. All down side, no up side. It's the power equipment equivalent of taking up smoking. Just dumb.


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## bwalker (Nov 29, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I don't see the point in going out of my way and inconveniencing myself, so that I can pay more, for a fuel that provides no benefit for my equipment, and is also toxic to me to run. All down side, no up side. It's the power equipment equivalent of taking up smoking. Just dumb.


The fuels he mentioned will make a small two cycle run slightly worse and make less power. And your breathing lead and mromine fumes as a bonus. Doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me..
If your dying to run something other than pump gas VP makes unleaded fuels optimized for small equipment or you can just run canned fuel.


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## Tomos770 (Nov 29, 2022)

Hermio said:


> No, I am not. I am assuming that thew engineers who design equipment for a living, and the oil company engineers, know more about the subject than the end users do.


I have finally found you.....


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## Husky77 (Dec 29, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> That’s just a waste of fuel. My old mix gets dumped in one of the trucks a couple litres of mix into a tank that’s half full doesn’t make much difference.


Why dont you just use something like Aspen, maybe expensive but works out cheaper. It lasts years in a saw so no need to dump fuel out if left on a shelf


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## Tomos770 (Dec 29, 2022)




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## bwalker (Dec 29, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


>



Another useless YouTube test...


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## Bob Hedgecutter (Dec 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Another useless YouTube test...



They are pretty much all safe- if you remember to add them to the gas before filling the equipment's tank.  
Don't need to watch no gosh danged Tube of you to sort that one out eh? 
Someone will be along presently to direct us to a video he has made on tuning to increase his views per month next- any nut with a camera........


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## Tomos770 (Dec 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Another useless YouTube test...


It shows which oil burns together with a gasoline....and which one lubricates?


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## bwalker (Dec 31, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> It shows which oil burns together with a gasoline....and which one lubricates?


No, it doesn't.


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## Husky77 (Jan 2, 2023)

All oils work even the very cheapest, I have seen saws very abused and run to almost death yet they live on. How many old saws are still about and costs silly money on ebay..... £500 for a 1970's ok its collectors buying them but I seen some taken apart and very suprised to see how little wear they have. Run on oil you wouldnt even look at these days. But use the best you can afford and you wont go far wrong I reckon.


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## bwalker (Jan 2, 2023)

Husky77 said:


> All oils work even the very cheapest, I have seen saws very abused and run to almost death yet they live on. How many old saws are still about and costs silly money on ebay..... £500 for a 1970's ok its collectors buying them but I seen some taken apart and very suprised to see how little wear they have. Run on oil you wouldnt even look at these days. But use the best you can afford and you wont go far wrong I reckon.


For most of us it's not what works. Most any petroleum oil would probably work.
Alot of those old saws don't have many hours on them. Lots of guys think there saws have a ton of time on them, but they just don't. A full time logger will get only 1-2 years out of a saw and to get two it's going to need to be re ringed once.


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## Husky77 (Jan 2, 2023)

bwalker said:


> For most of us it's not what works. Most any petroleum oil would probably work.
> Alot of those old saws don't have many hours on them. Lots of guys think there saws have a ton of time on them, but they just don't. A full time logger will get only 1-2 years out of a saw and to get two it's going to need to be re ringed once.


I guess it's just so different here in the UK, we dont have the trees any more. Myself I have never worn a saw out and I'm nearly 70 but I havent cut anywhere as near as you over there, now it's just for fun and dont need to use a saw but I do to keep mobile on the good days.


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## camel2019 (Jan 3, 2023)

Husky77 said:


> Why dont you just use something like Aspen, maybe expensive but works out cheaper. It lasts years in a saw so no need to dump fuel out if left on a shelf


I have never seen it and I go through a lot of mix when I use my kombi tool(weed whip mainly) chainsaws and in the winter when we actually have one of those the snow blower. Spending $30 or so a gallon not ideal.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 3, 2023)

Porsche says E-fuels will settle at around 7.60$ per gallon....









Engineering Explained: Are E-Fuels for Real?


You're right to be skeptical.




www.roadandtrack.com


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## bwalker (Jan 3, 2023)

Tomos770 said:


> Porsche says E-fuels will settle at around 7.60$ per gallon....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think hydrogen fuels ICE engines will ne a thing before E Fuel.


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## OM617YOTA (Jan 3, 2023)

bwalker said:


> I think hydrogen fuels ICE engines will ne a thing before E Fuel.



If $7.60/gal is right, or even $10/gal, I suspect we'll do that and make use of our existing fueling infrastructure, rather than implement a whole new fueling infrastructure. Fleets might do their own thing for a few percent savings, the way they do now with CNG.

Edit: Especially since E fuel is also a drop-in replacement for current fuels in existing vehicles and equipment. It'll work in your 1967 Chevelle and your 2022 Raptor. Hydrogen won't.


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## bwalker (Jan 3, 2023)

OM617YOTA said:


> If $7.60/gal is right, or even $10/gal, I suspect we'll do that and make use of our existing fueling infrastructure, rather than implement a whole new fueling infrastructure. Fleets might do their own thing for a few percent savings, the way they do now with CNG.
> 
> Edit: Especially since E fuel is also a drop-in replacement for current fuels in existing vehicles and equipment. It'll work in your 1967 Chevelle and your 2022 Raptor. Hydrogen won't.


The problem is the feedstock for E-Fuel is very finite. There simply isn't enough to even fuel a small fraction of the auto fleet.
It should be noted that there are two ways to make E fuel. One starts with plant oils like soybean or corn oil. The other uses co2 pulled from the air or other sources and blue hydrogen. As you can imagine the latter is way more expensive than the former.


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## olyman (Jan 3, 2023)

grizz55chev said:


> I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about chainsaws and oil. View attachment 1029592


blah, blah, blah, blah......blowhard plus.....


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## Tomos770 (Jan 3, 2023)

Oceans are soaked/saturated with co2....

I think that that will be our "pool" from where we will start "pumping" E-fuels...









Global Threats to Coral Reefs - Coral Reef Alliance


Coral reefs are threatened by warming waters from climate change, ocean acidification and other stressors.




coral.org


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## bwalker (Jan 3, 2023)

Tomos770 said:


> Oceans are soaked/saturated with co2....
> 
> I think that that will be our "pool" from where we will start "pumping" E-fuels...
> 
> ...


The ocean floor is full of methane hydrate as well.
Pulling either out is very expensive.


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## Campbellcontractlogging (Jan 4, 2023)

bwalker said:


> For most of us it's not what works. Most any petroleum oil would probably work.
> Alot of those old saws don't have many hours on them. Lots of guys think there saws have a ton of time on them, but they just don't. A full time logger will get only 1-2 years out of a saw and to get two it's going to need to be re ringed once.


He’s right is all I hafto say.


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

rogue60 said:


> What wrong with a hotter tune? most run a blubbering ring sticking carbon producing cold tune thinking it's good lol


That's true... most can't tune a carb to save their lives.


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

sawmill sam said:


> I recently had a conversation about mixing ratios for 2 stroke chainsaws and I would like to hear more opinions about it.
> I have watched 2 you tube videos that confirm what I have always thought, that more oil causes more heat because it burns hotter than gas.
> Here is a link to one of the videos I watched on this subject (by Dave's small engine channel) and I would like to hear what our experts have to say in this forum about this video.
> It is a simple and effective method to prove my point that heat levels increase when more oil is used.
> ...



YOUTUBE is full of stupidity and this video is a prime example.


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

Couple of points. Youtube is about the worst place to get info on this subject. Combustion oil tends to pull heat out of the combustion chamber. Increased oil content increases compression slightly via improved ring seal, which can increase engine heat. Fixating on heat alone is myopic at best.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 4, 2023)

2-strokes have a lubrication requirement... not an amount of oil requirement. 

Gary


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## Lightning Performance (Jan 4, 2023)

J D said:


> Alzheimers?


Should be by now. You guys and gals are on page 29 now


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## Lightning Performance (Jan 4, 2023)

sawmill sam said:


> "Mix oil is a higher BTU/gallon than gasoline, so having more of it in your mixture is going to mean your mixture has more potential energy.
> This is always going to mean that for the same volume of mixture consumed, there is more potential heat in said mixture."
> 
> I took this quote from another thread. So, on one hand, my thinking about oil=heat was correct but I was incorrect in thinking that it noticably affected running temperature if you adjust the carb to compensate for the leaner condition . Thanks to all for your input and I hope everyone's winter will be mild!
> ps. feel free to agree or disagree with my conclusion!!


This winter sucks man.
One freezeup and now weeks of 60s vs the 40s we should have. No snow in our nearby mountains means no late thaw and no spring feed waters. The trees here will open buds on some by the weeks end with this constant on off rain and very high humidity now. The growing things ingeneral go sideways when we have mild winters here in the NE USA. I hope your brain is in for a mild winter but not our weather outside


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## RTK (Jan 4, 2023)

bwalker said:


> That's BS logic.
> Lead is really nasty and there isn't a single good reason to use it. Sunoco 110 isn't well suited to a 2 stroke and your probably making less power to boot.
> I work in a refinery and have worked in heavy industry my whole career. This isn't a good reason to ingest further crap in the form of lead.



I use 100LL in all my yard equipment and chainsaws, there is a good reason for me. It lasts indefinitely, doesn't varnish or ruin any parts of the carb no matter how long I leave it in the tank. 
I'm not a professional landscaper, arborist or in the tree cutting business so my exposure is pretty low. The lead levels in my body are normal, had them checked because I reload and cast bullets.
Does it make less power? Maybe but nothing I can notice.
So there actually are good reasons for some to use 100LL.


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

RTK said:


> I use 100LL in all my yard equipment and chainsaws, there is a good reason for me. It lasts indefinitely, doesn't varnish or ruin any parts of the carb no matter how long I leave it in the tank.
> I'm not a professional landscaper, arborist or in the tree cutting business so my exposure is pretty low. The lead levels in my body are normal, had them checked because I reload and cast bullets.
> Does it make less power? Maybe but nothing I can notice.
> So there actually are good reasons for some to use 100LL.


When exposed to lead it's out-of your blood within 48 hours IIRC. From your blood it travels to your bones, brain, eyes and other tissues where it hides out for a long time. So unless you have had a bone biopsy you have nonidea how much lead is in your system.
If leaving gas in your equipment long term is something you do use one of the canned alkylate fuels.
There is no good reason to use 100LL


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## RTK (Jan 4, 2023)

After exposure it will stay in the blood for about a month give or take, not 48 hours. No bone biopsy's needed with modern day technology.......
It is absorbed into the bone where it can reside for many many years, less for other organs. It is released back into the blood stream slowly so it will show up in blood work where you can asses your levels, no bone biopsy needed. I'm in the medical field...
Until 1973 or so pump gas had lead in it, definitely not good for humans. I don't use some of my equipment for many months, 100LL does not deteriorate or cause other problems associated with pump gas.
I'm not recommending it to anyone, but it serves a purpose for me and will not have any adverse affects to my body in the way I use it.


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

RTK said:


> After exposure it will stay in the blood for about a month give or take, not 48 hours.
> 
> It is absorbed into the bone where it can reside for many many years, less for other organs. It is released back into the blood stream slowly so it will show up in blood work where you can asses your levels, no bone biopsy needed. I'm in the medical field...
> 
> ...


The rate at which it leaves the body is extremely slow. As such a blood test is about useless and are only used to assess lead poisoning or recent exposure. Bone biopsy or XRF Xrays are used to study the body's lead load. If your in the medical field with experience relevant to this subject you should know this.
Yes, there was much more lead in the environment when gas contained lead. IQ scores were also lower.
I stated IIRC after my 48 hour comment because I was going off memory. I haven't studied the issue in a few years..
As a medical professional you should be educated enough to know what your doing is stupid when lead free products will accomplish the same thing.


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## RTK (Jan 4, 2023)

.......bwalker, you sure have a high opinion of yourself and are overly confident in many things you speak. Pretentious is a word that comes to mind................


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 4, 2023)

Gentlemen, an elemental hair analysis is enough


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> Gentlemen, an elemental hair analysis is enough


No, it's not. Hair testing is often used with blood testing to assess short term exposure. It's seldom used by itself to assess anything.
Its only useful for asessing recent exposure of 6 months to a year max. Lead stays in your bones for decades.


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## RTK (Jan 4, 2023)

bwalker said:


> As a medical professional you should be educated enough to know what your doing is stupid when lead free products will accomplish the same thing.



We all take risks in life, one has to judge what that risk is and if it is worth taking. 
Some people won't fly single engine over mountains, some do. You mitigate the risk as much as possible to make it acceptable.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 4, 2023)

bwalker said:


> Nie, nie jest. Testy włosów są często stosowane wraz z badaniami krwi w celu oceny krótkotrwałego narażenia. Rzadko jest używany sam w sobie do oceny czegokolwiek.
> Jest to przydatne tylko do oceny niedawnej ekspozycji od 6 miesięcy do maksymalnie roku. Ołów pozostaje w twoich kościach przez dziesięciolecia.


it is from the hair that we know what fate the Romans made for themselves and it's probably been more than a year


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> it is from the hair that we know what fate the Romans made for themselves and it's probably been more than a year


That may be so, I don't know. It doesn't change a thing in regards to what I said.


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## bwalker (Jan 4, 2023)

RTK said:


> We all take risks in life, one has to judge what that risk is and if it is worth taking.
> Some people won't fly single engine over mountains, some do. You mitigate the risk as much as possible to make it acceptable.


Yes, we do. However, I try not to take a risk with little to no benefit other than saving a few dollars vs using canned fuel.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 5, 2023)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> it is from the hair that we know what fate the Romans made for themselves and it's probably been more than a year











ScienceShot: Did Lead Poisoning Bring Down Ancient Rome?


Sediments downstream from Rome reveal health risks of empire's plumbing




www.science.org


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