# Anybody charging by the (chainsaw) tank?



## earache (Mar 10, 2011)

Instead of charging per hour or per cord, it is many times easier and more preferred. 

For production(piece) work. Cutting and bunching. 

If so, how much?


----------



## Gologit (Mar 11, 2011)

earache said:


> Instead of charging per hour or per cord, it is many times easier and more preferred.
> 
> For production(piece) work. Cutting and bunching.
> 
> If so, how much?


 
I've never heard of charging "by the tank". What would be the advantage to you or the people you're cutting for? Can't quite figure that one out.

I've worked by the foot, by the day, by the ton, flat rate and sometimes free of charge...but never by the tank. I don't know anybody who has, either.

Try it...let us know how it works out for you. Take some pictures. Maybe you'll start a trend.


----------



## indiansprings (Mar 11, 2011)

Nope, never heard of it. Can't imagine doing it that way.


----------



## 2dogs (Mar 11, 2011)

Never. It is probably a higher tech way of losing money.


----------



## Samlock (Mar 11, 2011)

I've never charged by the tank, but I use "tank" sometimes as a measuring tool in order to calculate my charge. I know by the looks of a tree how many tanks falling and bucking it will probably take. Helps me in cases there is only few (easy) trees to handle. I simply convert "tanks" to money and tell it to a client.

Also the concept of tank helps with busheling. I estimate the volume of timber by DBH and height. There is knotty forests and not so knotty. By the looks of an average tree I know how many tanks it takes to cut a given volume of timber. And I know how many tanks I run per day, so it gives me an idea how much do I want per unit.

Usually charging is not that simple. But the tank is anyway a good tool for a quick estimation. 

For your information, my tank (including taxes) costs about 40 €/55 USD. If I would pop in America to take care of a tree or two, I'd charge for kilometers (0,45€/0,62 USD / kilometer) as well.

A bargain, yes?


----------



## coastalfaller (Mar 11, 2011)

Same with me too, haven't heard of it. When I'm walking a stand of timber to figure out my price for the falling, I'll sometimes estimate how many trees my guys will fall/tank on average. I then multiply that by the average volume/stem to get my production/tank. You can then multiply that by the number of tanks in a day to get your guesstimate for production. Usually get pretty close.


----------



## bullbuck (Mar 12, 2011)

we were lopping brush one day,and the bossman brought up a story of a guy who was caught just over the ridge laying flatout on his back with his saw beside him pulling the trigger as needed to try to fool the crew,this tactic did not work,nor did his employment last...this is an extreme case,but thats what i thought of when you said by the tank...if you bustass and your employer knows it,i wouldnt see why your employer would disagree with paying by the tank.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Mar 12, 2011)

It's easy to measure and argue and re-measure wood delivered at the end of the day.

Hours we're pretty used to measuring too. Chainsaws I would think it's pretty hard to fake it...not like you can take a nap out of sight while still having the saw sound like it's working. Maybe clearing brush like bullbuck's last example (although I'd love to know if it sounded "off" to the foreman!)...but seems to me in timber you'll have to hear trees falling and saws lugging down cutting the trunks. I'm just an amateur at all this, but I can tell the difference between my neighbors who run Stihls and the run who runs a Dolmar...sounds tell you a lot.

Not much you can do to prove someone's not popping the cap and pouring out fuel.


----------



## bullbuck (Mar 12, 2011)

Dalmatian90 said:


> It's easy to measure and argue and re-measure wood delivered at the end of the day.
> 
> Hours we're pretty used to measuring too. Chainsaws I would think it's pretty hard to fake it...not like you can take a nap out of sight while still having the saw sound like it's working. Maybe clearing brush like bullbuck's last example (although I'd love to know if it sounded "off" to the foreman!)...but seems to me in timber you'll have to hear trees falling and saws lugging down cutting the trunks. I'm just an amateur at all this, but I can tell the difference between my neighbors who run Stihls and the run who runs a Dolmar...sounds tell you a lot.
> 
> Not much you can do to prove someone's not popping the cap and pouring out fuel.


 
we dont have foremen here,they are called bossmen...no unions here friend:msp_smile:


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 13, 2011)

Dalmatian90 said:


> Not much you can do to prove someone's not popping the cap and pouring out fuel.



Thats it.


----------



## earache (Mar 13, 2011)

I have spoken to a few different contractors that have/do charge by the tank in certain situations. Pertaining to these, but not limited to;
Doing subcontracting work when another crew is on the job
Multi-species(where rate differs)
Small stand, or when the sub won't have alot of production(maybe between jobs)
Times when it isn't necessary for the subcontractor to bring his forwarder/skidder
These are just some examples. In some situations, a sub charging by the tank can make things SOOOO much easier for billing for both the sub and the buyer/producer. The biggest time saver is in the forwarding and sorting of the wood. If it all needs to be marked and separated, the sub pays more for forwarding. The contractor that I am subbing on with sideloads all of their own trailers with the forwarder, so sorting would be so time consuming there wouldn't be anything left for the sub. 
It can work out good with both parties being trustworthy. 
I was curious who/where else this was ever practiced.


----------



## tlandrum (Mar 14, 2011)

if im getting paid buy the tank ,hell i want an 880 or a 3120 they get reall poor fuel economy so i should be able to make bank... right??:spam:


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 14, 2011)

or dog a 460 into big timber and then the balance will go off too- I find the right saw for the right timber will get the best fuel economy.

But, as the OP is discussing, and had been agreed upon more or less, I too regularly gauge my day by my fuel burnt. Lots of others do too. But it is affected by terrain, density, avg dbh, prescription, etc., so it would vary just like $/mbf varies witht the strip if it came down to charging by the tank.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 14, 2011)

*Charging by the tank*

I've been thinking about this and I just don't see how it would work for me.

Too many variables.

If I'm pioneering a new haul road with the Cat my fuel usage will be a lot higher than when I'm skidding logs on some easy downhill pull. It's easier for me, and for the people I work for, to pay a set rate per hour. The total operating costs are more predictable and easier to figure . I have a pretty good idea what it costs to operate the Cat and if my hourly or daily rate doesn't exceed my operating costs by a certain percentage I can either negotiate the rate or give the job a good leaving alone. This is done before I ever start a job.

If I'm falling I need to know how many bf I'm getting on the ground. Fuel usage for a saw isn't accurate enough to base job costs on...not for the volume of timber we usually work with.

I can see where, on some little podunk job, you might be able to charge by the tank and get away with it. But...theres a lot more costs than just fuel and your "cost per tank" had better be real high.


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 14, 2011)

Right now I'm cutting more moderate ground and a higher avg. dbh and my fuel consumption has gone up by 25-50%. #### those 100% slopes. I'd rather keep filling up the saw.

BTW, the mini gypos on the belt (20 oz. fuel gatorade jug, 12 oz bar oil grapefruit juice bottle) has given me I bet 10 more stems a day compared to being more tied to the mother jug. More freedom to roam further from the jug, less walking time, etc. Best is to fill up while your in your back cut. Oh yeah, an you can really run your tank out (nearly) every (other) tank full since you have fuel on your person. Freedom from the jug.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 14, 2011)

Neat. Do those Gatorade jugs degrade any from the gas? I'm always tinkering with mini-jugs for just the reasons you listed. LOL...I've had a couple of different ones that started to melt from the gas.


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 15, 2011)

The jugs seem to be holding up fine- the juice one might be only 8-10 oz., whatever, you'll know it when you see it, the gatorade one is the wider size single serving bottle. The gatorade lid began leaking soon, but the blue caps from the juice bottles seem to work well on both the bar oil bottle and the gatorade bottle. I have an old shoe lace with slip knots around each of the bottles and a loop in between that gets clipped to a carabiner on my tool belt.


----------



## coastalfaller (Mar 15, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> or dog a 460 into big timber and then the balance will go off too- I find the right saw for the right timber will get the best fuel economy.
> 
> But, as the OP is discussing, and had been agreed upon more or less, I too regularly gauge my day by my fuel burnt. Lots of others do too. But it is affected by terrain, density, avg dbh, prescription, etc., so it would vary just like $/mbf varies witht the strip if it came down to charging by the tank.


 
Bang on, Joe. On our current block, my guys are burning less fuel but getting more scale than our previous block. This one is a healthy white wood stand, very little limbs, not much rot, easy & quick bucking. The previous block was cedar, alot more limbing and long butting!


----------



## bitzer (Mar 15, 2011)

Thats funny. I've been doing the same thing lately with the mini containers. I spent a lot of time searching when at different stores and finally settled on some 25-30oz. metal water bottles. They were in a two pack for like $7 or something. They have the plastic caps with a loop on top to hook a carabiner to that I tie my extra boot lace to for the sling. The fuel bottle I drilled a tiny hole through in the right spot for a vent. They've been holding up pretty well.


----------



## ms290 (Mar 16, 2011)

i have contemplated doing this for cutting cedar trees. ive never seen anything worse to cut than a cedar. i should do this too


----------



## J.Gordon (Mar 16, 2011)

Would you pay someone by the tank or for the job?
If I hired someone to get a job done, that is what I want.

Heck I'll pay ya for three tanks and then hand you a handsaw! 

How many tanks of gas they use doesn't matter to me! I just want the job done! 

The contractor should know what his operating cost is before he bids a job.

If he doesn't he should work for time and material.


----------



## forestryworks (Mar 16, 2011)

ms290 said:


> i have contemplated doing this for cutting cedar trees. ive never seen anything worse to cut than a cedar. i should do this too


 
For sure, nothing is worse than cutting that damn eastern red cedar! (Juniperus virginiana for people want to look it up.)

I've had good luck cutting them down, piling 3-6 to a pile, then burn them about 8 weeks later.

Of course, if we had regular Rx burning, we wouldn't have a cedar problem.


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 16, 2011)

The first time i had ever day waged I was recommended to do so by the boss, cause the first few days worth were all cedar. He was right, and it worked out in the end anyhow. They milled cross ties and cedar themselves during the winter, logged all summer, sold all the other products to mills. I walked as it approached winter, in good standing, they knew and I knew they couldn't pay my wage at the mill. Great folks though.

Hemlock is like a big cedar, limby as hell, though I've barely cut a few of those anyhow.


----------



## earache (Mar 17, 2011)

J.Gordon said:


> Would you pay someone by the tank or for the job?
> If I hired someone to get a job done, that is what I want.
> 
> Heck I'll pay ya for three tanks and then hand you a handsaw!
> ...


 
Yes, I would pay a guy this way. If I trusted him, worked with him before, and was on the job with him. 
I'm unsure which contractor your referring to regarding operating costs? In this scenario, it wouldn't matter. The cost to the sub is your time with your saw. 
We're all there everyday together, and they will be skidding the wood I produce daily.


----------



## J.Gordon (Mar 18, 2011)

earache said:


> Yes, I would pay a guy this way. If I trusted him, worked with him before, and was on the job with him.
> I'm unsure which contractor your referring to regarding operating costs? In this scenario, it wouldn't matter. The cost to the sub is your time with your saw.
> We're all there everyday together, and they will be skidding the wood I produce daily.


 



earache said:


> Anybody charging by the (chainsaw) tank?
> 
> Instead of charging per hour or per cord, it is many times easier and more preferred.
> 
> ...



The contractor would be the person that would bid the job.
(Hopefully a professional)

If you can sell the customer by the tank, I would be surprised.
I wouldn't hire someone to do a job by the tank, only time and materials,(if I trusted him) or the complete job.


If he wanted to do it by the tank, I would think he is nuts!
That's just my opinion though.

Asked a few of your customers what they think about the idea, and get there honest opinion about it.

I'm looking at from a customer stand point here, not the cutter though.
I'm curious what they tell you.


----------



## 056 kid (Mar 18, 2011)

#### a computer. Hit the wrong ####in button and everything is gone.

Sorry, had to vent..


----------



## stihlkicken (Mar 19, 2011)

*culls.*

some guys bid by the bowl. at least mommy or daddy has wi fi right? just like a diamond , cull is forever.lmao.


----------



## autis (Mar 19, 2011)

wow i find it interesting that nobody here is getting paid by the tank. i say that because I AM and its fairly common in my area, as far as i know. i cut for my cousin who runs his own loggin operation. 

$15 dollars a tank. sometimes it can be annoying, especially on a slow day, but i guess it works out fair in the end. he trusts me to keep track of my tanks for the week. i work hard and dont waste gas so he treats me pretty good and we get along. ya hes had guys in the past that cheated him but they didnt last too long on the crew.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 19, 2011)

autis said:


> wow i find it interesting that nobody here is getting paid by the tank. i say that because I AM and its fairly common in my area, as far as i know. i cut for my cousin who runs his own loggin operation.
> 
> $15 dollars a tank. sometimes it can be annoying, especially on a slow day, but i guess it works out fair in the end. he trusts me to keep track of my tanks for the week. i work hard and dont waste gas so he treats me pretty good and we get along. ya hes had guys in the past that cheated him but they didnt last too long on the crew.


 
Interesting. I had no idea that this was such a common practice.

Does your cousin supply the gas or do you? On an average day, how many tanks do you use? To be fair on tank usage do you run the saw dry every time or just fill it when it seems right?

Do you run your own numbers (work as an independent contractor and pay your own taxes and such) or are you an actual employee?


----------



## autis (Mar 19, 2011)

he supplies gas and oil. the last job was a pretty sorry patch of trees and they had most all the good ones gone by the time i started cutting so i was only getting 2.5 to 3 tanks a day. pretty poor pay but i hope to get a better average on the job we just moved to. i work one other job and also have responsibilities on the family ranch so when i need to take a day or even a week off from logging, i can. thats the main reason im even working for him, the fact that i work whenever i can/want to.

i do run the saw till it dies. besides the fact that i want to do honest work, im usually near his son (we usually cut together), so it would probly get noticed that im getting more tanks than him. 

i work as an independent contractor.

FYI im not seeing this as a long term career. its a learning experience for me and im making a little pocket money. i really enjoy it though and its basically a right of passage in my family to either log or drive truck. and its nice workin with family and not having to go out there and completely bust your butt to make somebody happy. the boss/cousin is pretty laid back and not out there for gold and riches, just payin the bills and supporting his family.


----------



## J.Gordon (Mar 19, 2011)

autis said:


> wow i find it interesting that nobody here is getting paid by the tank. i say that because I AM and its fairly common in my area, as far as i know. i cut for my cousin who runs his own loggin operation.
> 
> *$15 dollars a tank. sometimes it can be annoying*, especially on a slow day, but i guess it works out fair in the end. he trusts me to keep track of my tanks for the week. i work hard and dont waste gas so he treats me pretty good and we get along. ya hes had guys in the past that cheated him but they didnt last too long on the crew.


 


autis said:


> he supplies gas and oil. the last job was a pretty sorry patch of trees and they had most all the good ones gone by the time i started cutting so* i was only getting 2.5 to 3 tanks a day. pretty poor pay but i hope to get a better average on the job we just moved to.* i work one other job and also have responsibilities on the family ranch so when i need to take a day or even a week off from logging, i can. thats the main reason im even working for him, the fact that i work whenever i can/want to.
> 
> i do run the saw till it dies. besides the fact that i want to do honest work, im usually near his son (we usually cut together), so it would probly get noticed that im getting more tanks than him.
> 
> ...


 
If 45 bucks a day is your low, whats the most tanks you can run in a day?

Your low doesn't even meet Missouri's minimum wage.
If your top paying days don't do a lot better than that, You do need to find another career.


----------



## Samlock (Mar 20, 2011)

Now I remember, years ago a landowners' association in Central Finland had an odd system. The pay was fixed, but in order to get it a worker was obligated to run 4 tanks a day. I didn't work there, but a fellow I know did. He said everybody hated the system, and they changed it quite soon, for some reason...

I'm not aware of the expenses of an indy contractor across the pond (taxes, insurances, pension fund etc.), but 15$ a tank sounds, well, uh, let me put it this way: My income would at least go below zero.


----------



## earache (Mar 20, 2011)

J.Gordon said:


> The contractor would be the person that would bid the job.
> (Hopefully a professional)
> 
> If you can sell the customer by the tank, I would be surprised.
> ...


 
I am not the contractor(timber buyer) on the job. I am subbing for the guy that bought the job. He is paying for stumpage, trucking, etc. He is simply paying me (per tank) to put timber on the on the ground, buck the best grade, and bunch. That's it. I am not dealing with any customers, truckers, anybody. I am just in there subbing for a mechanized crew that is in the stand already working. This is when this works.


----------



## autis (Mar 20, 2011)

J.Gordon said:


> If 45 bucks a day is your low, whats the most tanks you can run in a day?
> 
> Your low doesn't even meet Missouri's minimum wage.
> If your top paying days don't do a lot better than that, You do need to find another career.


 
the most tanks i can run in a day is about 5-6. another thing is the hours we work. we get in the woods by about 9-9:30 and leave about 4-4:30 so hours are pretty easy. and im not looking at this as a career. honestly right now its just something to keep me busy and make a little extra money. 

and as i already said, its a learning experience. ive felled trees logging on other folks places that are much larger than the stuff we have on our ranch. we cut probly 40 cord of firewood a year from green standing trees so ive got felling experience from that but theres things that ive learned logging that i wouldnt have from felling firewood on our own place. and ive still got a lot to learn, im sure, so im gonna keep logging for "under minimum wage" and look at the other benefits that it provides for me besides money. and im young and single with no debt so it doesnt take much in the way of money for me to keep going.


----------



## 056 kid (Mar 21, 2011)

stihlkicken said:


> some guys bid by the bowl. at least mommy or daddy has wi fi right? just like a diamond , cull is forever.lmao.


 

Shoo, go on back to your hole


----------



## hammerlogging (Mar 21, 2011)

056 kid said:


> Shoo, go on back to your hole


 


11 tanks today, moderate ground, not real good density or dbh. No way I'd do that for $15/tank.


----------



## bitzer (Mar 22, 2011)

Way too many variables for charging by the tank.

Anyway here is a pic of my fuel bottle set-up. The mix is a 34oz. and the oil is 27oz. I could definetly use a smaller oil and larger gas bottle. Its funny everywhere I look I see these damn things now. $6 for a 41oz. at Walgreens. The gas does not seem to be degrading the seal yet and its been working for three weeks. The green bottle is my water and its all tied together with a shoelace that I sling over my shoulder. There is a $20 aluminum bottle made specifically for fuel at Gander mountain. It is vented and holds 20oz. I think. A little pricey, but may hold up longer. The plastic bottles I was using (originally for gear oil) kept getting dog holes in them. 






View attachment 176994


----------



## J.Gordon (Mar 22, 2011)

earache said:


> I am not the contractor(timber buyer) on the job. I am subbing for the guy that bought the job. He is paying for stumpage, trucking, etc. He is simply paying me (per tank) to put timber on the on the ground, buck the best grade, and bunch. That's it. I am not dealing with any customers, truckers, anybody. I am just in there subbing for a mechanized crew that is in the stand already working. This is when this works.


 
How many tanks can you run a day and how much are you getting per tank?

If you don't mind me asking.


----------



## Samlock (Mar 23, 2011)

bitzer said:


> Way too many variables for charging by the tank.
> 
> Anyway here is a pic of my fuel bottle set-up. The mix is a 34oz. and the oil is 27oz. I could definetly use a smaller oil and larger gas bottle. Its funny everywhere I look I see these damn things now. $6 for a 41oz. at Walgreens. The gas does not seem to be degrading the seal yet and its been working for three weeks. The green bottle is my water and its all tied together with a shoelace that I sling over my shoulder.


 
Hey Bitzer, it's good thing you have a colour code. Have you ever hoisted a wrong bottle? It's amazing how quick a human being can throw up.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 23, 2011)

J.Gordon said:


> How many tanks can you run a day and how much are you getting per tank?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking.


 
I think he said he's getting 15 bucks a tank and uses 5 or 6 tanks a day.


----------



## forestryworks (Mar 23, 2011)

Gologit said:


> I think he said he's getting 15 bucks a tank and uses 5 or 6 tanks a day.


 
That ain't much money, lol. A guy could spend that much in fuel.


----------



## earache (Mar 28, 2011)

J.Gordon said:


> How many tanks can you run a day and how much are you getting per tank?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking.


 
I run from 6 to 8 tanks a day. Working pretty short days now that the woods roads are softening up pretty bad in the afternoon. 
I charge substantially more than $15 per tank.


----------

