# Newbie Questions on Milling with a Chainsaw Mill (homemade)



## n8ghz

Hello, as a complete newbie to Chainsaw Milling (never even saw one except in pictures), I have been reading here and elsewhere for ideas.

I have read about ripping chain & the values thereof. 
I have read about the high HP required for non-boring performance.
I have also read where alot of folks use regular chisel-chains where size of the kerf is not a concern.
I have read about narrow-kerf chains for those that do care.
I have read about auxillary oilers for long bars..or for any bar? (too much oil not being a bad thing?)

My main Q's right now, having just started building a carriage to run on a ladder:

Is it possible or not desirable to mill in both directions ie: cutting off of the top of the bar as well as the bottom? My bar will be supported in all directions near the roller-tip rivet (chainable tip bar)
This would allow changing depth of cut after first cut and going back the other way cutting off of the top of the bar.

This is a question that I guess even pertains to hand-held sawing.......say you put a 36" bar on a fairly powerful saw, but only sawed say 22" logs that were a PITA for a 18 or 20" bar.....is the HP requirement of the 36" bar in that useage any more of a power-hog than a 22" bar or smaller?
I realize that there is more bar-to-chain friction, but it can't be that significant can it?

I will probably set this thing I am building up with a 20" bar, but am making it so the bar support can work with a 24",28" or maybe the 36". Even with those bars, I doubt if I will ever cut anything that those would allow for width. I figure about the biggest logs I have would be 18".
Unless I really get a kick out of doing this, it is only for hobby use....and mostly because I enjoy building things and simply want to see Me making a board or a post.....ha ha

I am sure I will have more questions if anyone cares to comment.....all comments will be welcomed.

Thank You


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## sachsmo

Take your time, milling ain't cookie cuttin'.

You can use regular full chisel chain, but I would re-file to a 8 to 10 degree top plate angle.
I have only used semi-chisel for milling.


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## n8ghz

*Another question*

I thought of another tidbit I've been wondering about.

I am planning on power advancement using a small gearmotor that is 2.9 RPM @ 120vac.
I have played with the math on different diameter winch spools to wind 1/8" cable (or smaller) in a controlled single wrap as to speed.

My initial calculation is 1/8" cable on a 1" spool @ 2.9 RPM (120vac)...that is 10.5 minutes to cover 8'.

Is that about right for speed thru a log with a chainsaw mill?
I know the type of wood & it's dryness, etc. are big factors.

I have played with my little gearbox and have run it via a variac....I can go slower
and I can go faster if I use a larger diameter spool.

I have looked at U-tube videos of a few CSM's and they are walking...kinda....slowly pushing the rig....I think I can match that with this winch....but have not built it yet


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## mtngun

n8ghz said:


> My initial calculation is 1/8" cable on a 1" spool @ 2.9 RPM (120vac)...that is 10.5 minutes to cover 8'.


I don't think power feed is a good idea on a chainsaw powered mill. It would stall if you pushed too fast. Or waste time (and over rev) if pushed too slow. 

Perhaps you could get away with it on a 4-stroke CSM.

10.5 minutes to mill 96" = 0.15" inch/sec, very very slow. Real life CSM speeds will be 0.25" - 1.0" inch/sec depending on log width and chain sharpness.


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> Is it possible or not desirable to mill in both directions ie: cutting off of the top of the bar as well as the bottom? My bar will be supported in all directions near the roller-tip rivet (chainable tip bar)
> This would allow changing depth of cut after first cut and going back the other way cutting off of the top of the bar.


Yes it is possible but the operator will have all the sawdust squirting out all over them, also the controls/handles will need to be set up for use on both sides. It's actually no big deal to pull the carriage back and I prefer that more than have to operate it from each side.



> This is a question that I guess even pertains to hand-held sawing.......say you put a 36" bar on a fairly powerful saw, but only sawed say 22" logs that were a PITA for a 18 or 20" bar.....is the HP requirement of the 36" bar in that useage any more of a power-hog than a 22" bar or smaller?
> I realize that there is more bar-to-chain friction, but it can't be that significant can it?


Chain friction is in the noise for a well adjusted well oiled bar. Of course if you try and cut with it that's different
I saw everything down to about 18" in diameter with a 42" bar



> I will probably set this thing I am building up with a 20" bar, but am making it so the bar support can work with a 24",28" or maybe the 36". Even with those bars, I doubt if I will ever cut anything that those would allow for width. I figure about the biggest logs I have would be 18".


That's what everyone says :smile2:


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> I thought of another tidbit I've been wondering about.
> 
> I am planning on power advancement using a small gearmotor that is 2.9 RPM @ 120vac.



Power advancement would be OK on a CS mill where the powerhead is big and the logs are small but otherwise I agree with mtngun that it could too easily bog the saw.

I'm a fan of sloped versus any sort of winch assisted Alaskan CS milling. If you get the log up on a slope using a hi-lift jack there is no need for a winch as the weight of the mill and saw provides plenty of forward pressure. This is why I have never explored building a carriage style mill.


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## rock

If your near medina ohio you can pm me
i will be milling between the rain next few weeks
Track mill 20" bar and granberg 36" to 60"


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## n8ghz

On the power feed idea, I think I will re-think that after I see for myself what kind of advancement speed I can achieve by pushing by hand with my setup.

I hope to get some pics posted soon, as I have enough of it built to show it.
I made the outboard bar support and tip guard with the oil needle-valve on the guard right above the sprocket roller. I have read about the oil flow from various aux oilers changing as the reserve's level drops. I am going to pressurize my tank with air. That will allow me to not mount it high above the machine, and should solve the irregular flow thing.

Thanks for the basic speed guidelines. On the comment about getting chips all over the operator if cutting in both directions....with a power feed, you don't have to be near the chips being thrown on either side. I'd be sitting near the speed controls of the winch watching. But as I said, that may or may not even get attempted....gotta see it cut a little bit first.


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> On the power feed idea, I think I will re-think that after I see for myself what kind of advancement speed I can achieve by pushing by hand with my setup.


 A wise choice.



> I have read about the oil flow from various aux oilers changing as the reserve's level drops. I am going to pressurize my tank with air. That will allow me to not mount it high above the machine, and should solve the irregular flow thing.


Same thing will happen - the pressure will drop as the free air volume changes and less oil will run out. One way to reduce this effect is to have a large high pressure chamber containing a small amount of oil so the relative change in free air volume does not change much but the amount of oil would run out quickly and I don't know If I would like a container under high pressure attached to the mill. I've found the simplest way to get around this is to have a manually adjustable flow so as the oil level drops the valve can be opened up. Of course this requires the operator to be up close and personal and pay attention at to what is going on.



> On the comment about getting chips all over the operator if cutting in both directions....with a power feed, you don't have to be near the chips being thrown on either side. I'd be sitting near the speed controls of the winch watching.


I misunderstood what you meant, it won't be a problem because on the way back most of the sawdust will be thrown off at the nose. I'm not sure how significant this will be but some power might be lost on the nose by cutting on the back side of the bar.


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## TMAR

n8ghz said:


> Is it possible or not desirable to mill in both directions ie: cutting off of the top of the bar as well as the bottom?



I have a Procut setup and I always saw with the top of the bar. Like Bobl said- the saw dust all flies away from you. 
Another thing is that the oil rides over the top of the bar first and the bar and chain are well oiled during the cut. I have never used an auxiliary oiler.


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## bigjohn1895

it may just be me but when i tried to mill backwords mi will always tried to cut up leaving me with wavy boards or thiner on one end then what i started cutting


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## n8ghz

The oil tank I'm making will hold .3 USG. There won't be much room for any apprecable volume of air @ that level, I guess I could fill it half way...for 50-50 oil to air? I have tested it under water to 120 PSI, but have to add a couple of bungs yet. I don't intend to run that much pressure, but it is nice to know that I could. I'll try it here tonite, dribbling into a tin can...playing with the needle valve.....probably start with a full tank and 40 PSI. I will adjust the needle valve for a guesstamate of what might help oil the bar and see how long .3 gallons last and what happens to the air pressure and flow rates as the pressure drops,etc. I will have a pressure gauge on it for monitoring pressure.

I had to take a buddy to the doctor this morning, so am getting a late start on the build.


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## WadePatton

running the mill both ways would be a major pain if one slopes the log for gravity feed...:hmm3grin2orange:

(but i have pushed a few wet ropes uphill in my time-or tried to.)

if you must attempt power feed, you might consider a slipping mechanism-clutch of sorts to maintain proper feed pressure (which might vary by cut) w/o bogging thesaw. A torque limiting device-yeah, tha's the ticket.

carry on.


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## n8ghz

i like the clutch idea, that is do-able.


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## WadePatton

n8ghz said:


> i like the clutch idea, that is do-able.



certainly. i'm not_* all *_hot-air and sundrop. :msp_thumbup:

i'm a/k/a w1ade. 73


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## n8ghz

Another reason I am interested in power feed, is now that I have built a roller table to run on a ladder, I intend to add an additional bolt pattern to allow me to bolt on a support post with lateral adjustment for a machine cutting torch. All of the saw stuff is removable, and I can use part of it's mount for the outboard bar support to hold the torch bar. I have other ways to cut steel, but on occasion I have wished that I had a track torch. I have had the torch for years, just no track or motor drive. Now that I am getting interested in the CSM, I can have both.

To W1ADE, 73 to you also.

I have been thinking about the clutch idea. Right now I am leaning toward making my little gearmotor on a slide with an adjustable over-center lever so I can move it toward the winch spool with varying tension and latch. I am thinking of machining a disc-brake pad round like a puck and putting it on either the spool or the output shaft with a plain steel plate opposite it.
This would allow me to control the slip somewhat. It will also allow me to free-wheel the winch spool and roller table to wherever I want it along the ladder track and then latch the gearmotor pressure plate into mesh.

I did some more calculations on the gearmotor RPM's thru the variac. I misread the label on the gearmotor to be 2.8 RPM, and what it really says is 2.8 FL and 9.0 NL. So running that info thru an excel sheet I made, gives me just what the fellow gave for approximate feed speeds... .25-1.00 inch/p/second from 2.25 RPM to 9.0 RPM. I can get 2.25 RPM with the variac and these calcs come out perfect for that speed range using a 2.125" spool.

I am now going to build the winch, even if I don't like it for the saw, It will work for the torch.


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## john taliaferro

If you could use a small nylon rope or maybe put a bunge coard in the system it might provide slack to pull the mill backwards if it did stall the saw . Ive been thinking after pushing up hill yesterday for two hr on some small pine for a friends bird house projects . A rope over a limb with a weight attached would work for every one but Daninvan on the Beach .


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## n8ghz

i'm going to use 3/32" SS cable on the winch, but am also thinking of using a spring on the connection to the slide, if for nothing else, but to maintain taughtness in the cables. It will add some additional 'give' if it's not too strong. My plan is to have two cables on the spool, one coming off the top of the spool and one coming off the bottom, so as to be able to run both directions, with the spring as a tensioner.


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## Talltom

Not sure why you're focusing on a power feed rather than a simple hand crank that you can control. Feed rates will vary by a factor of 10 or more based on width of cut, type of wood and sharpness of chain. When I'm edging boards at 4" or less I don't even use the crank because I can't crank it fast enough. When I'm cutting a 24" hickory, I may take a minute to cut a foot. A hand crank can exert plenty of pressure - enough to really bog the saw if you're not careful, so it will more than meet your needs for feeding the cut. The best clutch to use for CSM feed rate is your brain.


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## n8ghz

That is good advise and the speed thru hardwood along with the health of the chain,etc are good info. As I said when I started this thread, I have never ripsawed anything with a machine-held saw. Doing it will be new to me. 

Also, as I said, having built a workable slide that holds a saw and runs along a ladder for a track, if I use the slide as a track-torch too, motorized is a plus for that app. We'll see if it is an exercise in futility with the saw......?

BTW, on your example on hickory, @ my slowest speed It would be .8 minutes per foot, not counting any slipage or if I lowered that speed control so it actually stopped advancing.

Not being a knot-head, and a dummy to boot, I will certainly run some of my first cuts by hand.
I have no idea how my saw will handle ripping. I have hand-cut thru some crotch logs to be easier to log-split, and that was impressive.

I use hydraulic saws.

I have a double-ender bar if I think I want to try 2 hydraulic saws on one bar.
If so, I would have a 36" width cut capability. I have read about balancing 2 gas saws on such a bar, and for the most part, it sounds like a tough thing to do....ie: waste of money?......however, balancing 2 hydraulic saws would be rather simple ...the fluid would do it? But that remains to be seen.....if I get this going, I may try it....i have enough parts to do it.


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## john taliaferro

We are gonna need pictures ,what hp does your hydraulic engine produce ,and how loud is it .


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## n8ghz

The saws I have, run on 4-8 gpm from 1000-2000 psi. I run off of my tractor's rear hydrauilcs quite a bit at my woods. It is 6 gpm @ around 1900 psi. I also have a dedicated portable hydraulic unit that can run from 4 gpm upto 8 gpm dependant on RPM (has a tach on it) and the full 2000 psi. I have hose pairs (2) 25', (1) 40', and some 10-12' pairs, so I could get quite far away if I wanted to, but lots of hose will limit the performance. I will probably use the 25 footer, which is what I use when sawing from the tractor hydraulics. I usually rev the tractor up to 2000 rpm when sawing (diesel), and drop the rpm when running the splitter. I have a PTO pump for it, so both can be connected at same time. 
The saws are very quiet, kinda erry-sounding, just chain noise mostly, and no exhaust, and no vibration. They oil with an adjustment that leaks a little hyd.oil on the bar...not enough to worry about. Sawing 8 hours a day, every day may be a different story, but I don't intend to do that. At 6 gpm, chain speed is stated to be around ~2650 fpm, and at 8 gpm it is ~3525 fpm (~59 fps). From my research, a gas saw @ 10,000 rpm with the same tooth count sprocket and chain would be 5000 fpm or 83 fps. My saw use 3/8" .050 chain, but I do have 2 large bars that are 3/8" .063.
As near as I can guess, HP @ 8 gpm-2000 psi is around 6HP, but it is constant at a given psi.

John

I don't have a cell-phone camera or a digital camera (that works anymore), but I do have a cheap webcam, that I may be able to use here in my shop with a little finaggling.


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## WadePatton

OH my.

that should produce great milling power--just gotta wrestle those lines around and get the log and tractor into the same location.

Neighbor of mine makes hydraulic splitters from junkyard scrap. He never buys a line, rarely buys a valve. Usually buys a pump. Makes the axles, tanks, tongue, top, wedge, etc. Always fusses about the cost of oil to fill 'em. He on #16 today.

Anyway, long lines shouldn't reduce efficiency (actual not theoretical) in hydro-unlike a/c or d/c where electrons have to jump around, making things warm and changing their characteristics. But i'm no hydro-surgeon. 

Heck the tractor can travel alongside the log if you get into big stuff.

GET a bro with a camera to visit--

I've seen hydro circulars on bucket trucks, are these a variation on that?


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## n8ghz

The hydraulic pole circular saws use a similar, if not the same motor, from what I've seen, although I do not have one. I do have an 88" reach hydraulic pole-chainsaw. It's motor looks the same as my hand saws and is made by the same outfit. It only has a 13" bar, but that is plenty for limbs. I also have the 88" pruner, which is a lopper. I like it. It will whack a 2" limb off instantly....bam...gone. For bigger limbs, I can use the pole chainsaw.

I have my project CSM apart right now, as I had to get my MIG rolled over to my lathe (limited work space...no matter what you have it seems like). The ladder I'm using is a 36' magnesium one, and with my rig on it with a saw on it, it clogs up my work space. The ladder is an extension type so it's only 18', but it is still in my way alot. Anywho, I loaded my webcam software onto another computer, and will set it on my drillpress table afterwhile and put the ladder,roller table,saw, oiler....deal back together and post a few pics. They might not be as good as these new giga-pixel cameras, but should give you folks an idea of where I'm at with it.

My roller table simply holds the saw & oiler....not a jack-post type thing. I intend to build a log table that will go beside the clipped-down ladder track. I will raise & level & turn the log via the log table. I have not started on it yet. The whole shebang will be lag-bolted to some RR ties/2x6's,etc.

I will use my pair of 25' hoses, which will be able to run the whole length of the ladder-track if needed. I will put a bracket on the roller-table so the hoses have no effect on the saw movement.

The log table (in my mind) will have the holding dogs, and on one end, will have the ability to level/incline the log as need-be. Then once set, can be raised for the desired cut thickness. The saw is not movable, exept across the length of the ladder.

You'll get the idea later..with a few pics.....I have to go to the PO to get my 3/32 SS cable & thimbles,etc. 

I hope to mock-up the winch for the pictures. I have made a few of it's parts yesterday & today.


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## n8ghz

Well here are a few pics, If I can make 'em work.


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## n8ghz

And 3 more


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## n8ghz

No pics of the winch setup, but I did get the cable,thimbles & crimps and have the spool about half made. Also have the gearmotor mount almost done.

I do not think machining a disc-brake pad to a round puck is going to work....too hard on the lining. I don't want to have to have that much pressure to make it even move.

I remember working on old Marvel power hack saws, that had down-feed ratchets.....they used about 5 corks in a cork wheel against a surface for slip. that kind of pressure is more like I'll need, along with the slip it will allow?

Oh well, back to the drawing board, so they say?


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## betterbuilt

Very interesting. Looks good. Are you worried about the bar flexing?


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> The oil tank I'm making will hold .3 USG. There won't be much room for any apprecable volume of air @ that level, I guess I could fill it half way...for 50-50 oil to air? I have tested it under water to 120 PSI, but have to add a couple of bungs yet. I don't intend to run that much pressure, but it is nice to know that I could. I'll try it here tonite, dribbling into a tin can...playing with the needle valve.....probably start with a full tank and 40 PSI. I will adjust the needle valve for a guesstamate of what might help oil the bar and see how long .3 gallons last and what happens to the air pressure and flow rates as the pressure drops,etc. I will have a pressure gauge on it for monitoring pressure.



If you half fill the 0.3 G tank with oil there will be 0.15G of oil and 0.15G of air at 40 psi. When half the oil has run out there will be 0.075 G of oil left and 0.225 G of air at 27 psi. Assuming flow rate is proportional to pressure the flow rate will fall by a 33%. When the oil tank is nearly empty you will have a flow rate that will be 1/2 the original. 

Compare that with my latest mill which has a tank 24" above the bar. The tank is 8" high (0.32 G) so when the oil level drops to half the pressure head changes from 24 to 20" or a change of 16%. when the tank is nearly empty the flow rate is 1/3rd of the original. 
Your tank also only holds half the volume so has to be filled up and re-pressurized. 
So your set up about will be about twice as ineffective as my "tall" gravity setup. 

Like I said before you are far better off using a gravity based tank and putting your efforts into adding a manual control that will enable the flow to be controlled while the mill is running rather than mucking about with pressure gauges and needing to re-pressurise the tank every time it has to be filled. 
My BIL mill aux oil tank only has a pressure head of about 12" but the manual flow control makes oil flow adjustment on the fly a piece of cake.


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## BobL

Talltom said:


> The best clutch to use for CSM feed rate is your brain.



Yep - I agree 100%


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## WadePatton

I'd mill a few logs and stew over the feed-hickie.

and well, in case you don't do that and are interested in small brake pads, look into the brakes used on mountain bikes (real ones, not k-mart replicas). Replacement pads for such are quite small, some round some square all about 1.5 or 2 inches square. i can probably dig up a couple of used pairs if you want--or try any bike shop for used and new.


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## n8ghz

On the outboard oiler/bar support.

No, I am not worried about bar flex. The bar support/oiler/tip-guard is plenty strong....you can upset the ladder by lifting out there. Of course right now, the ladder is not lag-bolted to RR ties.

On the oiler - pressure vs. any other way.
I like the low profile mounting.....YMMV
I can see if I have oil in the clear hose and can stop cutting if needed.
As to all the math on progressive losses.....I am dragging 2 hydraulic hoses and have no problem dragging an air hose too.
I forgot to say that I have a bucket-truck that has an on-board air compressor, it is a 30 g tank @ 120psi with it's own regulator.
I shouldn't have to run the Onan on the truck for the compressor to 'keep-up' with losses in my .3g oil reservoir.
I did put about a quart of oil in it and pressurized to 40 psi. In pic2 you might see a needle valve?.....I set it for a steady drip and watched it for a while. It will do the job. Like I said, if I need a constant air pressure, it's just one more hose away. I'll be ready for a beer or have to change the cutting depth by the time I run out of oil or air....or run out of beer?


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> As to all the math on progressive losses.....I am dragging 2 hydraulic hoses and have no problem dragging an air hose too.
> I forgot to say that I have a bucket-truck that has an on-board air compressor, it is a 30 g tank @ 120psi with it's own regulator.
> I shouldn't have to run the Onan on the truck for the compressor to 'keep-up' with losses in my .3g oil reservoir.
> I did put about a quart of oil in it and pressurized to 40 psi. In pic2 you might see a needle valve?.....I set it for a steady drip and watched it for a while. It will do the job. Like I said, if I need a constant air pressure, it's just one more hose away. I'll be ready for a beer or have to change the cutting depth by the time I run out of oil or air....or run out of beer?



I'm pleased to see there is finally someone around that is prepared to make things more complicated that I usually do so I officially hand the "most complicated setup" award over to you.


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## n8ghz

I don't know if I'm worthy of that, but I do tend to get complicated/over-kill on things I build.

You may enjoy this prior project?

[video=youtube;62K6PzE-XFg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62K6PzE-XFg[/video]


It's sort like the saying about what a dog can do.....cause he can.


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## WadePatton

for can crushing i utilize four rubber-encased, steel-belted, pneumatic rollers arranged in pairs two in front of the others. drive is applied by the rear set and the arrangement is guided by the front set mounted on steering spindles with caster for stability in the case of high-speed fwd direction can crushing. the braking assembly is friction material on steel-hydraulically actuated. entire assembly is powered by a diesel engine through a 5-speed box and 2 speed transfer case. whole contraption weighs ~7700 dry, but holds 34 gallons of diesel on other sundries (saws, firewood, rifles, dogs, me) bring it to 8,000 daily (per the scales where i sell the cans).

operator's compartment is semi-waterproof....allright okay, i'll stop it.

but that _is_ how i crush cans. i collect them in the "hopper" located over the drive axle and then pitch them onto the driveway. only pia is picking them back up to sell 'em.


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## Talltom

For cans I use a manually actuated size 13. Can't imagine where all those cans would come from.

For milling - I think you have a good start on the replacement for the space shuttle. I see a height adjustment on the outside but one isn't apparent on the inside. Since it looks like you will be cutting to the side of your ladder/guide, you will need to adjust the height for every cut, no?


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## n8ghz

I used to use a size 11 shoe, then when that hurt, I used a piece of firewood and a welding glove, then I had too much time on my hands and built the device in the video. I wish i'd have built it years ago.

On the outboard adjustment...yes.....it is there. On the in board, it is there too. In the pics, the cross-bar is against the saw grab-handle and in back of it is an adjustable slide. It is on an angle, but has load bolts & jam-nuts. It can go higher, and can still cantilever against the saw grab-bar using a shim....like 2" Sq. tubing or whatever. With the main telescoping on that mount being on an angle, unlike a vertical telescope, it kinda wedges when crossing the grab-bar, and thus resists change in dimension...but there are setscrews (2) also. In the pics, with it working against the grab-bar, max log cut is 6.875" from chain teeth to it. For starters, that would allow me to do a 6x6 or a 6x15 (20" bar in pics) , which is the distance from the saw body to the outboard support on the saw in the pics, which has a 20" bar. My outrigger will allow me to use my 16",20",24",28",36" or the double-ender 44" (which is only 36" if using 2 motor heads).

On the cut adjust...I intend to raise the log on it's table, saw & ladder are to be stationary. The adjustments on the saw roller table are only provided for different bar lengths and if I want to cut thicker than ~6". I can do an 8" thick which for now is about all I can imagine?

NASA here we come.

Reminds me of NASA spending millions $$$ to make an ink-pen work in zero gravity.....the russians just used a pencil.


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## procarbine2k1

Hit this guy with some rep fellas. Hes a good dude for sure. I have done business with him in the past, and he is stand up as they come. Glad you joined the site John (N8ghz), glad to hear from ya.


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## n8ghz

Thanks Jeff, for the compliments, nice to find you here as well. I will keep in touch, you need to make a trip down here....maybe next summer? I should have a few of the projects you know about....semi-operational by then.


BTW, I did do Saturday @ the Bunyon thing in Cambridge, "saw" some neat stuff & got a few more ideas...also talked to Kahler's....nice folks.

John


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## MHouse1028

hello y'all im new to the site,but i have been sawmilling with a alaskan saw mill for a couple years i use a modded 084 with a 36" bar...one thing i have learned is just start sawmilling then you'll know what you can do and cant do..one thing for sure is i like taking a stock skip tooth chain and re grinding it to 8 degree's that way when you hit your first 16 penny nail you dont have file the chain for an hour..haha..we've all been there (i now own a detector and helps cut down on those oops moments) these are things you learn anyways...just start milling and it will all fall into place..goodluck and good to here you have an interest in milling with a chainsaw


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## procarbine2k1

n8ghz said:


> Thanks Jeff, for the compliments, nice to find you here as well. I will keep in touch, you need to make a trip down here....maybe next summer? I should have a few of the projects you know about....semi-operational by then.
> 
> 
> BTW, I did do Saturday @ the Bunyon thing in Cambridge, "saw" some neat stuff & got a few more ideas...also talked to Kahler's....nice folks.
> 
> John



Good deal. I was wondering how it went, and have been kicking myself for not making it down this year. Kahler sales are good people for sure. I will make it down one of these days. Hopefully there will be a get together around here one of these days, they are always a blast.


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## Old Blue

*Mr WadePatton*

Your small servile y chromosome helper unit is malfunctioning and needs to be fed or spanked. Give it two cookies and see if that clears it up. If you don’t have one make one soon. :hmm3grin2orange:

Old Blue
Shamelessly overtaxed with no representation in
Kali-bone-ya


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## WadePatton

Old Blue said:


> Your small servile y chromosome helper unit is malfunctioning and needs to be fed or spanked. Give it two cookies and see if that clears it up. If you don’t have one make one soon. :hmm3grin2orange:
> Old Blue


oh hades, she went packin' in 2007 (the double-x type). here are my helper monkeys:


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## Old Blue

*Mr WadePatton*

Well no wonder they're not picking up the cans, you're using the duck picker uppers. Mighty fine set o monkeys ya got there. They're my favorites and I'm partial to the one on the left, looks like mine.

Old Blue
Working for the benefit of others in
Kali-bone-ya


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## Old Blue

*n8ghz*

Thats an interesting way to crush those cans. Thanks for sharing that with us. 

At first read I had my doubts as to the workability and practicality of the mill you are putting together, but now I can hardly wait to see it. Please keep us posted.:msp_thumbup:

Old Blue
Didn't know I could be bled to death through my wallet in
Kali-bone-ya


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## n8ghz

Well, I haven't made the log table yet, but did acquire some steel tubing to do it. Need to think about heights I need....?

Anyhow, I did mock-up the winch and wired up it's reversing circuitry,etc.

Here are a few pics of it.

View attachment 211940
View attachment 211941
View attachment 211942


There is also a pic of the Oiler Tank from the other side.....it has had 60 psi on it for over 24 hours....so it must not be leaking...?

I can't wait to tie a log down & see what it does.
My speeds with the winch look promising, It will work fine with my cutting torch for sure....on a log...we shall see?

I am now thinking of adding a mount for an electric circular saw with a 14" blade for re-squaring? Converted from my 14" Ridgid abrasive metal cutting saw to edge with.




John


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## n8ghz

mtngun said:


> I don't think power feed is a good idea on a chainsaw powered mill. It would stall if you pushed too fast. Or waste time (and over rev) if pushed too slow.
> 
> Perhaps you could get away with it on a 4-stroke CSM.
> 
> 10.5 minutes to mill 96" = 0.15" inch/sec, very very slow. Real life CSM speeds will be 0.25" - 1.0" inch/sec depending on log width and chain sharpness.



Up early, running my roller table back & forth.....timing it. I can achieve as slow as .16 inch/sec..... ~9.5 inches in a minute. That looks good for a track torch ( no resistance ). If cutting with a saw, it'd probably stall because the voltage is so low. but maybe not, as the reduction ratio is 1787:1 ? This thing can go alot faster though, upto over 9 RPM with the variac supplying more than whateve standard 117vac is, The voltage at that .16 is down to ~50vac.

The hydraulic saw, I am thinking, would actually be better than a 4-stoke engine, as it's HP is coming from hydraulic pressure, which is constant, unlike a torque curve that an engine produces. 

Now to think about & design a log rack that won't need to be re-dsigned later....ie: gee I wish I'd have provided for more diameter/width/adjustment. I have 18' of ladder, with about 16' of usable space. I gotta think about how to handle short logs & longer ones too. On the longer ones, unless they are small diameter ( flimsy ), they can over hang somewhat...

Hmmm.


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## WadePatton

You'll learn more faster and messier when you set up on a log and start making dust. I made my first cuts yesterday. I'm still too green (and young and sexy) to worry 'bout a remote feed.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## n8ghz

Roger on that, on all counts. The older you get, the less physical you get. As an automation guy, I just look at things thru a different lense sometimes, plus I like to push buttons !!


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## n8ghz

It's been a awhile....the Holidays & all....but I have still been working on my machine. The log table is where I'm at right now. It is progressing along OK. I have most of it built and it will also support the ladder/track/saw. I am using 2 outrigger jacks that I was going to use on my bucket truck, but really didn't need them on it. They will raise the log from the log table, which will hold a second log when it's time for the next one. I have one end of the lift rigged-up to adjust for taper of the log, then it will raise parallel from then on up. I do intend to use a hydraulic motor to lift it, but will have manual cranks too....the motor in 'idle' will allow that. 

Pics to follow. 

I have also mocked-up, on my trolley, another hydraulic saw...a circular saw.
I had mentioned using an electric abrasive chop-saw with a circular wood blade, but have now modded an ICS concrete hydraulic circular saw instead. It can cut 5.5" deep using a 14" blade.

This may allow me to chainsaw cut 4x4's 3.5" thick and have the circular saw cut 3.5" wide at the same time?

If nothing else, I can edge cut simultaneously.

Pics of that mounting to follow also.

Come on spring.......

bunker-bound is a #####.


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## Fundyheather

*cutoff saw or chopsaw blade on a rail?l*

Hmm! Anyone ever mount a gas cutoff saw wood blade adaptation to a rail; run that along a tree intending to imitate a swingmill and live to tell the tale? 
jim


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## n8ghz

Do you care to ellaborate? I don't see where a blade spinning from whatever power source is any different than one on an arbor driven by belts or a gearbox or direct-drive? If it is fastened to a roller table that has wheels on the top & bottom of the track (my design does) please share with me what the inherent problem is? I can see if your slide was just running along a guide rail, with zero fastening to the rail what you imply would be dangerous. Please respond.


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## Fundyheather

I think the blade hook angle would be important, but I don't know which way you would go with it. The wrong angle on a table saw can propel offcuts in fatal fashion, and jump a radial arm back at you. Presumably the wrong hook angle would try to jump out of the track rather than do the work intended. So I think there would be a right and wrong blade for this sort of setup. (not that I know, I don't.) 
Best luck with your design, can't wait to see it.
jim


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## n8ghz

Thanks for the input, I am here to learn. It won't be too long until I can try some of my ideas, but caveats are certainly welcome.


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## n8ghz

Latest builds are the log table


View attachment 219002


View attachment 219003


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## n8ghz

Hello All. While this thread still gets alot of reads, discussion seems to have stopped. My project has weeks ago entered more of a build-it stage, than a Q's about milling for a dummy.

I will not be posting anymore pics,etc. from now until I actually saw something and leave this milling forum to those that are sawing/milling.


I really appreciate the info that those of you have given me, and it has been very helpfull. Thank You to those whom commented.

I will start another thread when I am able to make some chips fly.....with pics & hopefully maybe a video or 2?

Thanks Again.

over & out
john


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## BobL

I think that one of the reasons the discussions has stopped is because a semi auto hydraulic chainsaw mill is a pretty rare beast so its something very few of us have seen before and maybe we feel we can't make much of a contribution. Another reason could be because it is very hard to understand what your photos are about and how they relate to what you are saying. I've been involved with and have taught technical communication for many years and appreciated how hard this to do and teach. Even really smart students find it hard to put themselves in the novice readers shoes, sometimes the smarter they are the harder they find it. About the only way for someone to understand technical photos and processes, is for the writer to place labels within the picture and then provide a word based step by step explanation underneath - thinking "repair manual" helps. I notice an increasing use of video which is very helpful to explain processes but it doesn't always explain how and is not very good at explaining why unless a narration is added.

All that aside I'm really look forward to seeing some pics of it in action.


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## Leroy in Kansas

I'm just getting cought up with this thread. Or at least I think so. 

Can someone tell me if the old pics posted are still around? Don't know if ya all remember, I posted Pics of a hydrolic mill set up some time ago. 

I adandoned the idea because of problems keeping the belt tight enough to keep the saw chain runing. 

I also am confused regarding the pics you have posted. Don't know if I've missed some or what? I did pruse the whole post and didn't see anything posted. 

I understand your passion for DOING. sometimes its just as you said because you can. 

Show us some more pics and explain the detail as Bob has suggested. 

I was in Kansas but now Im the state of confusion?


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## n8ghz

BobL, your points are well taken. The last 2 pics I posted appear as attachments, not as inserted pics. When I posted those, I had more to post, but wanted to caption each one as to what the pic shows and do this for each pic. I have not figured out how to get them into the message. I finally gave up, and posted no more pics. I did the 'manage attchments' or whatever it is, and tried to tell the forum software to insert the picture INTO the message, but they still appeared as attachments, requiring a reader to click on them. That defeats adding blow-by-blow commentary and forces a reader to girate between clicking attachments & then reverting back to the message to read about it.

I agree that it hard to follow another guys solution to a given problem by just a picture.
They say " a picture is worth a thousand words ", but .......?


That said, I will start another thread when the thing saws something. Maybe by then, I'll catch on to how to properly insert a picture?

Thanks again.

John


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## BobL

Here is how I insert the pictures.

1) Load up the pictures as per normal.

2) Go to preview mode - it should then look like this - a *preview* of the post and an *Edit *area below that where you can continue to edit the post






3) in the *preview* area click on the link to the image itself and the image will appear.

4) Copy the image address from the browser address window

5) Go back to the preview/edit window and remove the existing image attachment code.

6) Now click on the "insert image" icon (see image above) in the editing window and a small window will open up into which you can insert the copied image address.
into the entry space under the "from URL" tab - you will also need to uncheck the "Retrieve remote file and reference locally" box





Save all and then re-preview the post which should now show in images in line.

Messy Huh - anyone else have an easier way of doing it?


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## n8ghz

Here is a test picture added using an off-forum hosting site.







*Greenlee/Fairmont Hydraulic Chainsaw model H6200-B*

This is to see if I can caption my pics, so as to better describe them?


after viewing: I think I can do a better job now.


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## john taliaferro

Doesn't look like much motor bet it will be silent .


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## BobL

I recommend posting the images direct to AS over posting to an off-site image storage.
If your off-site store goes down or you cancel your off-site image store account, this leaves your text on AS but no pictures so your info becomes much devalued.

We used to have a fantastic English member called Railomatic who was a highly innovative CS manufacturer. He posted many images and helped many people by posting images as solutions. Now many of his posts are devalued because his photobucket site is not longer operating. I managed to scrounge some images from some of his posts and put them into the milling 101 sticky but most are lost.


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## n8ghz

Roger on keeping pic on this site's server. But it is combersome to do, expecially on a complicated build. I have a computer in my garage and usually when I set down to take a break, I see what's going on here and other places. Every once in awhile I want to post some updates.

Another problem that I think all free-lance builders encounter, is being that I/We? are not following a set of drawings, and are building as we dream solutions up, our verbalized ideas change as we try to impliment them. Sometimes completely different than what we said a day ago.
Maybe it's just me?....but I realize it.

What I am thinking of doing, is to try to keep those of you who are interested, somewhat up to date, at least on basic components of the design. I can do that a little better now that I can add captioning to pictures and keep the reader in the same thread. However, not wanting to monopolize the sawing thread at the same time. So, what I may do, is some modular updates here, briefly captioning what the thing is,etc. 

Years ago, as a HAM, I had a fairly large website depicting my favorite hobby aspects and the equipment that I did it with, etc. I long ago deleted the whole thing and haven't built a website since. I am quite rusty, but can still do a simple site that can be easy to navagate thru. I'll leave out all the bells & whistles that I had in the HAM site, though.....neat to do, but time consuming.

I have alot of space on the ISP that I use, but haven't used any. Yesterday, though, I started playing with it, mainly just to see if that approach would be simpler to describe what I think I am doing with this project to others ....and if I remembered how to do a website...ha ha

I can add a more thorough description of things, I think, by doing it offline/ off-forum and posting a link to it. Then if someone wants to ask a Q about what they see, they can ask here & I'll try to answer it.

I don't intend to have the website accept comments....it'll be read only.

I may add my email address so that *anyone* who finds the site can email me if they want to.

John


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## n8ghz

Well during my breaks, I have been screwing around with the webpage idea. 

But have been cautioned since posting, that it may be a forum violation to link to it. 

Also advised it may detract from the archival value of this forum itself?

So the following is <deleted>

Here is the link for those that would like to beta-test it.

*Link removed 7pm EST. 2/01/2012*

Feedback here please, I have not added any email address to it yet.

I think anyone here could email thru AS as a PM or private?

I will add some *metatags* for the search engines after I play with it for awhile.
A webpage can be addicting to add to....building one comes back quickly, it's just how much time I can devote to it.....but I will fill in alot of the dead cliks, sooner than later.

I put a bunch of my builds on there, but now I need to become a cameraman....or just delete some of the items. I doubt I will do that though, there may be some folks who get inspired to build some of the things themselves from my ideas, that is what it's all about.

I looked at a lot of other folks ideas, and will continue to do so, and I encourage others to peruse my ideas.

<Link Gone>


Hope you like it.

John


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## Fundyheather

the web page works and what a nice saw! Good luck with it.
jim


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## BobL

John, I think you have missed the point about how AS is supposed to work, which is to be a centralized repository of information and discussion with occasional links to outside site. Putting material on an independent website and asking members to discuss the material here is IMHO worse than posting images offsite. The discussion can have little meaning without the pictures and descriptions of the pictures unless a lot of links between the sites are set up which I doubt many members will bother to insert or refer to. I also wonder how happy the mods will be about this.


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## n8ghz

BobL, I didn't miss the point, I took the path of least resistance. I still intended to post snipetts here and try to caption them.

The website attempt, was to allow me to more easily explain things.
And it does that.

Another problem with forums, is that you can't go back very far & clarify what was said.
You can, thru a lot of discussion, but it is not easy.

I am not a business, I am a retired hobbyist.
It comes to mind, all the links to commercial sites.....are those Ok?
Yes, they PAY for that, I suppose?

I am just a hobbyist trying to share ideas with others of like-mind.




If the link to my website is a violation, I think I can still edit that post and remove it.

I will see if I can now. *< Done, GONE>*

Thanks for your observations.

john


7:10 PM EST:
PS: was able to remove link....it has been *removed.*

If the moderators have a problem then I'd like to hear from them.
Until then the link has been *removed.*

From the guidelines:
<2. Direct links to and/or mentioning other Green Industry forum sites are not *permitted* at ArboristSite.com. Links that contain information that is* related* to the thread content are *permitted on the condition *that:
A) The link *must* be to a *particular post or thread *in the other forum, not the forum homepage itself.
B) *It must be relevant to the discussion where it's being linked from*.
C) ArboristSite.com reserves the right to *censor* any website. 

Maybe I should have my membership suspended or maybe even revoked ?

Whatever is *OK* with me.

John


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## n8ghz

Well, I never received any warnings from any moderators and have not been banned, so I have been busy building more parts of the chainsaw mill. I have also spent more time on my web pages. I did add a comment page to it, even though I did not intend to.

As to the previous discussion on pictures, linking, and feedback, etc. In the guidelines, and in your profile itself, the forum provides for a link to a member's personal web site. 

So I added that link.

If anyone wants to read and see, more details of this project ( or others ),

simply click my *user name*, and select *'Visit Homepage'.*


Sorry to have been problematic, but I needed to thouroughly read the forum rules, in case I was violating them.

None of the pictures within the website are proprietary, so feel free to copy/paste for your own collection or to comment on.


Thank you,
John


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## n8ghz

BobL said: 

<_We used to have a fantastic English member called Railomatic who was a highly innovative CS manufacturer. He posted many images and helped many people by posting images as solutions. Now many of his posts are devalued because his photobucket site is not longer operating. I managed to scrounge some images from some of his posts and put them into the milling 101 sticky but most are lost_.> 


I'm kinda thick, but I wonder why he quit posting?
Photobucket still exists. So......?

john


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> I'm kinda thick, but I wonder why he quit posting?
> Photobucket still exists. So......?



I dunno - Maybe he had an argument with someone on this site and as we call it "spat the dummy"


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## Old Blue

*Mr n8g8z*

The selfish bastart in me hopes you will stop working on websites etc and work on your mill. I am not trying to be a prick so please don't be offended. I do hope to see some pics or better yet video when you are ready.

disclaimer.. ihave been drinking...remove if necessary

Old Blue
Plain old screwed in...
Kali-bone-ya


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## n8ghz

I will do that, I am getting close....so close that I may run it inside the garage.
We have about 6" of snow outside right now.


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## n8ghz

Latest parts are these dogs & screws.

View attachment 223570

View attachment 223571

View attachment 223572

View attachment 223573

View attachment 223574


Ball screws are 1" x 4 tpi with ~17.5" travel.
Log Table is 20" and with the screws & these cleats, I can do at least a 15" log....probably up to 20".
The bar I'm going to start with will only do 15" (it's a 20"), so I can test anyhow.
Cleats can be pinned in several positions.
Without the cleats, the log wanted to roll when I put pressure against it.

I think these will work?
The stands are close together while I work thru these problems, in actual use they will be at least 4 or more feet apart, probably 8 feet?


it's past my bedtime, so I didn't go thru all the steps to make the pics appear in here.

john


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## Earl68754

Take your time, milling ain't cookie cuttin'.

You can use regular full chisel chain, but I would re-file to a 8 to 10 degree top plate angle.
I have only used semi-chisel for milling.


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## n8ghz

The chain on the 20" bar is brand new Oregon full-chisel. To start with, I will use that. I don't have any logs here at the garage that are longer than firewood. I'll have to jury-rig the stands just to be able to hold those short ones. But it'll be gratifying just to see a few become flat on a couple of sides or make a square. Length is not needed for testing the dogs, lift, saw mount, and so on. 

I do have (2) 25' rolls of Carlton ripping chain in 3/8x.050 & .063, and the tools,presets,etc. to make some rip chains, but for now, I need to work thru the initial problems.....the chains will come later.

Thanks
John


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## Talltom

n8ghz: It's not readily apparent how you will adjust the height of the log bed/stands or how much adjustment range you will have. With fixed bar height, you need a lot of range. The Logosol mills also use a fixed bar height and provide a 16" range for log height adjustment. This has been sufficient for most of the cutting I have done. You can always make the initial cut lower than you would otherwise and reload the top slab to cut a board or 2 from that. The first slab is likely to bow as it comes off, however, so you're liable to get taper along the length when you cut boards from it.

As far as spacing for the log stands, adjustable is best. 8 ft would be a good distance for 12 foot lumber. You will get sag when the cant is thin and you're cutting the last few boards. It's a tradeoff of sag at the ends or in the middle, but its easier to use a stout board or supplemental table under the cant to support the middle than supporting the ends. You will need a board for this when cutting logs and cants that are shorter than the span of your stands if the stand spacing isn't adjustable. The table you see under the crotch log is made of 2x4 white oak and is plenty strong to span the 6'2'' between the log supports. You will need to figure out how to attach both the table or board to the stands and the cant/log to the table. I screw the table into the mill's aluminum log supports and use wooden blocks, shims and clamps to hold the log.

View attachment 223639


----------



## n8ghz

TallTom, thanks for the pic of your logosol and your tips.

My frame/table is similar and has ~14" of lift. I think at the apex, I am about 2" from the bar, so I can clear 16" and I am thinking that I can square off something around 20" or even larger to cut in half, dependant on the bar length at the time?
My table lift is using (2) 10,000# outrigger jacks. I haven't settled on the frame spacing, but do agree that it needs to be variable and the further apart, the more shimming required when doing the last thin cuts. Tradeoff is the perfect word.

The more I think about it, 5.5 or 6' apart to start sounds about right for 8' boards and set it up further apart if I ever need to?

I realize that I will have to devise and have, some common shimming material handy. Your points on that are well received.

I am thinking of something like your wood frame/shim and possibly installing a pair of 1/2" pipe clamps that can adjust to a width less than the wood frame's width for clamping the last of the thinner stuff with. 

However, my 17" screws may work as is, even in conjunction with the supporting wood shim-frame? The wood is just to deal with droop.

I can add some steel tabs to the lift-frame so the wooden frame can be fastened to it......probably just pound 4 or 6 carriage bolts flush in the wood, and drop it into the tabs and put nuts on them. 

"necessity is the mother of invention" Plato


----------



## Talltom

If your log stands only comes within 2" of your saw bar, you'll need to use a board or table to raise the cant for the final thin cut, anyway. Clamps and shims work fine for cuts high on the log, but tend to get in the way for the final cuts. The saw will pull the cant toward the guide rail, so you only need something to stop it on the inside of the log table. I used a couple pieces of wood that I pivot up to extend about 3/4 inch above the top of the table. Unless you're going to cut lumber with a minimum thickness of 2", you need an easy way to cut thinner lumber, as this will affect many more logs than the maximum depth. 

The distance between the bottom of the chain and the log stands/table is the key measurement for adjustment, and needs to be accurate and easily repeatable for both log stands. My M-5 uses pins in a drilled plate. It's accurate but a bit cumbersome. The M-7 has a ratchet system that's much easier to use. The ratchet plate is adjustable to accomodate different bars and chains. The accuracy of this adjustment will affect all of your cuts after the first cut on each face.


----------



## n8ghz

Took a few days off from building to go look at a Toy Hauler, but am back at it.

Decided on a width for the frame, mostly based on hurrying-up & getting to cut something, and with scrap material sizes laying around. I can always make other length cross-members. 
Anywho, I set it at 5' 9" apart using some lengths of 2x2 square that made it be that length.
I hate to cut stuff if I don't have to.

5' 9" will be fine, (?), for doing an 8 footer...for a trial cut.

pics to follow.

I am getting so close, and the weather has been so mild, (after the 6" snow went away), that I am about to take it apart & put it together outside and give it a GO.

Also, have added the hydraulic motor to move the log up & down.


----------



## n8ghz

More days off from the build, this time to go gather up some fodder for the mill. A friend had 4 big Pines taken down, and knowing that I intend to try milling, he had the tree guy leave the logs in 8-10' lengths on the ground. These trees were ~60 high, and a neighbor had one taken down too, an 80+ footer. So I get them all. I spent all day today trimming the branch nubs down for potentential milling. Had I not commited to getting these, I would have ran my first log today, as it was a very nice day. I have hauled about 6 of the smaller diameter logs home (~10-12" dia.), so when i complete my obligation to get the rest of them out of their yards, I will be good to go for a few cuts...or I should say LOTS of cuts. 

I am anxious....and sore from limb-lopping all day.


----------



## Old Blue

*Go man go ! !*

You're close. Lets see it.

Old Blue
Perma screwed by beaurobastards in...
Kali-bone-ya


----------



## n8ghz

Today was the day to try this thing...and it actually WORKS. !!! hu-rah.
Ran the first couple of knot removing cuts to test leveling, pushing it by hand...in both directions. Woo....cutting off of the top of bar put a thick layer of chips along the side of my bucket truck about 2" thick....so I moved the truck.

I had to go load a few more of the pines I had commited to getting and got 4 more.....7 to go and they are getting bigger & bigger.

I unloaded those and went back to playing with the sawmill. I had enough of manually pushing, with the sticky pine chips all over me and the truck, so I put the motor drive on it.....now we're talking......just watch it go.
Next I added the pressurized aux oiler, after adjusting the chain for the first time....it works dandy as well, I only lost 5psi during 3 cuts.

I had an audience and one of the guys made a video of it sawing,oiling,auto feeding,etc.
He is supposed to send it to me tonite, & I will post it if I can. Or it'll go on u-tube with a link.

If it doesn't rain tomorrow I'll have another guy here to grab more video.


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## Old Blue

*Wooo Hoooo*

That sounds great!! And it doesn't sound like you had any glitches stop the run. Gotta love that! Hope your bud sends ya the video cause after watching the can crusher I'm chomping at the bit to watch it.

Old Blue
Where the theiving government makes the James Gang look like a bunch of Cubscouts in....
Kali-bone-ya


----------



## n8ghz

Yes, I was very happy to see it make full length cuts on the first try. I had expected to have more issues.
The guy that ran the video on his phone is having trouble sending it...too big or something? I'll get it off of his phone the next time he is here, but he works for a living, so I don't know when that'll happen?

Yesterday was a lousy rain day, so nothing done.

Today is warm, but dreary with a 30% chance of rain. I will try to do 'something'.....weather permitting.
I may drag a computer outside so I can take a few more pictures and try grabbing a video using my archaic webcam.

You can look at my webpage under "when will it cut", for a blow-by-blow of my experiences & thoughts from the last few recent days and what I hope to work on today.


----------



## n8ghz

Yesterday turned out to be too nice to fool with a computer outside, so I just played with the machine. I finished off the first log, and learned a few more things as I got down to the last 2 or 3 cuts. I only cut a 2 sided cant, so when I cut boards, I have bark on both sides, which makes them wider than if I had cut 4 sides to begin with. I became limited by the 20" bar (15" cut) and my outboard bar support started to get in the way. It was also getting too close to my holding dog screws,etc. (the log table is 20" wide). But I did manage to finish the first log, though.

Then I removed that saw, and replaced it with one with a 28" bar. That eliminated any of the bar support interference with the dogs...issues.

I put a new, bigger, log on the table, and tried the new 28" saw. It has a new skip chain on it, and It didn't cut as fast as the non-skip 20", even in narrow width starter cuts.

I only made the 2 sided cant, and cut one board. That was when I quit for the day.

Today I plan to make a ripping chain for the 28". I don't have any other chain to make for it unless I splice a couple of chisel chains from a 16" to be 92 drive links, so....we'll see if the ripping chain helps the 28" saw?


----------



## n8ghz

Having trouble with these Iphone videos....too big to email to me from their phone.

But here is a short one that was small enough to get it to me.

This is near the end of a cut on a 12" width, using ripping chain that I made this morning.

[video=youtube;b8Xqb5V--Qg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Xqb5V--Qg&feature=channel[/video]

Not much of a video, but better than nothing, I hope.....


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## scor440

If you set the saw at a 10 degree angle without power feed it will pull it self through the log?


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## Old Blue

*Looks Great*

........But aren't you supposed to be sitting in a lawn chair drinking a beer?:cool2: Can't wait till shes all dialed in. Congrats, thats cool !

Old Blue
Tyrannically taxed, fee'd and permitted for the benefit of others in ...
Kali-bone-ya


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## n8ghz

scor440 said:


> If you set the saw at a 10 degree angle without power feed it will pull it self through the log?



There is a gearmotor w/custom made winch moving it via a 3/32" SS cable, and it is reversible. I cut both directions, that cut is off of the bar top. When that finishes, I clear the board off, raise the log, and go back cutting off of the bar bottom.


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## n8ghz

Just finished a cut off of bar bottom.

View attachment 229027


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## n8ghz

Another view of cut finished running off of bar bottom.

View attachment 229028


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## n8ghz

A short log.....might as well be a post?

View attachment 229102



I will be posting a decent video of a full 8'-6" board which is 19" wide thru the knotted parts......14" wide otherwise.....1" thick cut. It should be full screen, not blocked black on sides like the poor one posted yesterday.


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## n8ghz

Finally....a decent Video....

1" thick, 14-19" wide, 8'-6" long.....power feeding on bottom of the 28" bar with ripping chain.

[video=youtube;P1k8iHbm7JM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1k8iHbm7JM[/video]

Tomorrow, need to go get the last 7 logs...the biggest ones diameter-wise.
That'll be 23 logs to play with.....3 CSM'd so far....20 to go.
Then we will try some maple and cherry.


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## mad murdock

Pretty kewl riggin'you got there!


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## BobL

Given the power you have available, for a 14 - 19" wide cut I would expect it to cut faster than 0.25 "/sec.
My guess is the cutting speed is chain limited. What depth rakers are you running?

By way of comparison, mtngun gets more than 0.3"/sec using a 660 at altitude in softwoods for similar width cuts to yours.
I think on some cuts he can get 0.35"/sec which means he really knows how to sharpen his chains

The last time I timed something was when I was milling a silky oak (about as hard as red oak) and I was getting 0.28 to 0.31 "/sec for a cutting width of around 24" using my 880.
I can get 0.25 "/sec in green hardwood (and I mean hard, as hard as dry hickory) around 20" wide if I keep the chain sharp.

Do you know about progressive raker depth setting? 
If not it will pay you to find out about it if you want to maintain cutting speed as the chain wears.
CS milling is not just about applied power, the sharpness and profile of the cutter is critical to maintaining cutting speeds.

The other think that surprises me is the amount of noise it makes, somehow I was expecting it to be a lot quieter. I guess those of us using a conventional powerhead don't appreciate how much noise a chain makes when it cuts wood.

At those small cutting widths I reckon you'd have been better off all around connecting the engine from the hydraulic power supply direct to a bandsaw.

Still, as mad murdock says "a very kewl rig"


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## n8ghz

Thanks BobL, I'm glad to see you post again in my thread, I thought you were mad at me, and am happy to hear your advice once again.

I dont' know anything about chain. I made this chain yesterday (first chain ever). It is an out-of the reel, Carlton ripping chain.......3/8" .050. The cut in the latest video is after ...i didn't count.....at least 4-5 cuts on similar widths. I have not touched the chain since making it yesterday. I did tighten it this morning before playing today, but that is all I did to it.
This pine was alive a month ago, if that matters?

I will surely need to get any/all info on chain sharpening techniques......because this is just FUN to do......you guys told me it would be....

& thanks to all who did so.

John


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> Thanks BobL, I'm glad to see you post again in my thread, I thought you were mad at me, and am happy to hear your advice once again.


Not mad, just a bit frustrated, mainly because I found it hard to make any sense out of your photos - they were all detail and at no stage did you show elements of the whole rig so I could see the big picture. Anyway - the vid is very clear and I'm glad to see you got it running - you can only make it go faster from here.



> I dont' know anything about chain.


Well this is definitely a good place to learn about it!



> I made this chain yesterday (first chain ever). It is an out-of the reel, Carlton ripping chain.......3/8" .050. The cut in the latest video is after ...i didn't count.....at least 4-5 cuts on similar widths. I have not touched the chain since making it yesterday. I did tighten it this morning before playing today, but that is all I did to it.



OK - chain straight off a reel or from the shop may not be that sharp and can use a touch up. I touch up my chains after about every 32 sq ft of cut in hardwood and 64 sq ft of softwood whether it needs it or not. That the equivalent of 5 x 18" wide cuts 8'6" long so you should be touching up before your next cuts.
Forget feel, sharp cutters is about removing cutter glint (see here for some examples). The cutter edge should have zero glint on it for it to be working correctly. 
The next thing to worry about is hook - for a detailed discussion see here. The hook is what makes a cutter self feed, which BTW will fight your setup for driving the bar.
Next there is progressive raker setting. for some details see the sticky in the "EquipmentForums/Hot Saws/Chain Sharpening" forum.
Other than that ask questions.
If you have the power available you can run very low rakers to improve cutting speed. The guys with Lucas mill slabbers can run their rakers very low (ie >0.050") and they get ~0.5"/sec cutting speed The increase in chain vibe is very significant. If you plan on doing this I would slowly increase the raker depth as it may shake your bar hanging out in the breeze setup too much. A carriage type mill with the bar held at both ends reduces this problem a little.



> This pine was alive a month ago, if that matters?


It shouldn't really matter



> I will surely need to get any/all info on chain sharpening techniques......because this is just FUN to do......you guys told me it would be....


Yes it is VERY absorbing. As one of my mates said, every time you cut a new slab the anticipation is like being a kid Xmas.


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## BobL

I just noticed it looks like you have the aux oil delivery point on the tip of the bar nose?
If so, thene th chain will flick some of the oil off the bar while the bar goes around the remaining 1/4 circle of the nose.
Less oil will be lost if the oil delivery point is located after the chain has gone around the nose.


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## n8ghz

BobL said:


> I just noticed it looks like you have the aux oil delivery point on the tip of the bar nose?
> If so, thene th chain will flick some of the oil off the bar while the bar goes around the remaining 1/4 circle of the nose.
> Less oil will be lost if the oil delivery point is located after the chain has gone around the nose.



Yes, it drops on center of the roller tip, and will be simple to move. I don't know as yet if it's the oil or the gooy sap, or probably a combination of both....but I am getting a build-up of sawdust/sap/oil that kinda forms a radiused 'blocker' which may be working as sort of a 'dam' or 'sponge' type of thing. It is hard to see if much or any actual oil is flying off.....maybe I need one of those macro-cameras?
I looked thru the link to your marco photography of chain details, and it was very helpful.

I have yet to read the other reference you make regarding sharpening, but will do so soon.....(rain coming again)

John


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## BobL

n8ghz said:


> Yes, it drops on center of the roller tip, and will be simple to move. I don't know as yet if it's the oil or the gooy sap, or probably a combination of both....but I am getting a build-up of sawdust/sap/oil that kinda forms a radiused 'blocker' which may be working as sort of a 'dam' or 'sponge' type of thing. It is hard to see if much or any actual oil is flying off.....maybe I need one of those macro-cameras?



The ideal spot seems to be on the bar rails where the chain kisses the bar.


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## n8ghz

Just read 820wards thread about his bar oiler. I can do an o-ring cut too and integrate that concept into my bar support as well. I will think about maybe doing that, making the oil go directly into the drive link channel by cross drilling the groove to meet the o-ring port. Sort of like alot of bars do on the saw-end? My bar support is adjustable laterally, so there would no issue with adjusting the chain tension.

Hmmmm....good stuff on here.


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## procarbine2k1

n8ghz said:


> Just read 820wards thread about his bar oiler. I can do an o-ring cut too and integrate that concept into my bar support as well. I will think about maybe doing that, making the oil go directly into the drive link channel by cross drilling the groove to meet the o-ring port. Sort of like alot of bars do on the saw-end? My bar support is adjustable laterally, so there would no issue with adjusting the chain tension.
> 
> Hmmmm....good stuff on here.



Looking good my friend! Glad everything is coming together for you. I will have to make it down your way one of these days!


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## n8ghz

procarbine2k1 said:


> Looking good my friend! Glad everything is coming together for you. I will have to make it down your way one of these days!



Yes Jeff, I hope you do.....This thing is showing promise....but I need to get back on the firewood processor project, now that the weather is givin' me a break.

Just let me know ahead of time if you head down this way....I'll make sure we get together and talk saws.


John


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## 820wards

John,

Really glad to see your mill is up and running. I'm sure as you use your mill you will refine/re-tune the mill for better performance. Having your chain sharpened properly will really make your cuts smoother and faster. I'm sure you have a grin on your face the whole time you are milling. Great build fellow miller!

Keep posting those pictures. 

jerry-


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## n8ghz

Yes on the grin. It was very rewarding to see it actually work on the first attempt. I have not done much with it since the day I made the video. Later that day, I broke a shaft that I had made inside one of the out-rigger jacks that lift the log. The 2 jacks are chained together for tandem operation, and can be driven from either jack with a hand ratchet, but I got lazy and started using a 1/2" drill motor. In my haste to play with this thing, I had removed the hydraulic motor that runs the jacks (which I had test run in the shop). So to play with it, I had that motor removed, and quickly tired of hand cranking...hence the drill motor. It was my fault that I broke the shaft inside the jack.......both jacks were nearing the end of the up stroke on a last cut and with no limit switches, the drill broke the shaft when it was going as far as it was going to go.

The original hand crank was 7/16" diameter, and that is what diameter I made the new shafts, but they are cross-drilled for roll pins that drive the bevel gear. That is where it broke. So now I have bored the gear out to 1/2" and may even go further to 5/8"?
5/8" is what the external shaft is anyway....where the sprockets are and the idle-end bearing...so I am thinking of going to 5/8" at the gear too. I will need to drill one side of the jack housing out to 5/8" too, but will leave the other side @ 7/16".

I am only going to do this (right now) to the broken jack....I'll do the other one some other time....?

The main thing is to get the hydraulic motor back on. This time, I will have a solenoid directional valve wired thru an UP and a DOWN limit switch so I don't bind-up the jack again. With limit switches, the other jack may live as is?

Pictures of the lift drive w/ hydraulic motor to follow when I can get some pics of it back together.


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## john taliaferro

Yes pic , cause i do not understand . Nice mill ,and Bob is right on the chain it will go a lot faster ,smoother, nicer ,even some quieter . where did you find the cute little winch ?


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## n8ghz

The cute little winch is a thing I built. From way back on this newbie thread, someone gave some good info on speeds shoving a saw thru a log. From that info, I built the little winch.....calculating drum dia,rpm,cable used etc.

The result is in the video....thank goodness for the speed info I worked from.....whomever you were....thanks....
For my saw, unorthodox as it may be, the speeds given seem to have me in the ballpark & working....


If you need info to build a similar winch. I can provide the data I used in designing it....no problem, just ask or send a PM.



john


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## n8ghz

Still working between bad weather @ getting the last of the logs I commited to getting out of OP property....and working to fix the last breakdown.

I will be moving the rig to where I will be doing all my milling too...as this is where I am taking the biggest logs....and then the rest of them here at my shop/house.

I am going to go buy a digital camcorder...so I can keep those that are still interested in this thing, with up-to-date pictures & videos.

Thanks to all for your interest.

John


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## Old Blue

Looking forward to when it's fixed and back up and running!

Old Blue
Rapacious taxation in the land of taxes and fees, where else but...
Kali-bone-ya


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## solarboy

*another newbie, joining the frey from the uk*

hello all, having built a mobile mill and cut a few tons using a husky 395, i'm realising how much hard work is involved in the absence of oxygen to breathe! 

so to the next stage i thought....i have a falklands war, 3 cylinder diesel, bomb lifter with variable displacement hydraulic pump, i think its about 40hp. i also have modified a whisky box packing machine with a rather nifty rack and pinion height adjustment, which is just asking to have a chainsaw attached. then all it needs is a means by which a log can be slid through.

so my challenges to come are hydraulic motor choice (bent axial 5cc/rev piston?) and getting it, and mounting it with a bar tensioning mechanism.......oh and sliding a log through, but that can wait.

no cash spent yet......empty wallet syndrome....the poor thing positively quivers in fear, knowledge donations gratefully accepted!!! 

great site...brilliant threads and contributors. hope to hear your views and be blitzing through some wood soon. all the best, mike


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## BobL

solarboy said:


> . . . . be blitzing through some wood soon. all the best, mike



If there is a chainsaw bar and chain involved there will never be "blitzing though some wood". Saw chain is by its very nature severely cutting speed limited. Chains have to tear/cut substantial amounts of wood fibres and then clear this wood. No matter which way one looks at it it takes time. If you want to speed things up you would be much better off looking at a bandsaw which has a much thinner kerf. Even then I don't see any blitzing.

BTW if you are breathing too much smoke, what mix ratio are you running and have you considered an exhaust modification that redirects the exhaust away from the front of the saw. Most modern saws have exhausts that fire out the front which then bounces of the log up into the CSM operators face or down into their boots and legs. Redirecting the exhaust makes a really big difference when using a CSM.


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## solarboy

BobL said:


> If there is a chainsaw bar and chain involved there will never be "blitzing though some wood". Saw chain is by its very nature severely cutting speed limited. Chains have to tear/cut substantial amounts of wood fibres and then clear this wood. No matter which way one looks at it it takes time. If you want to speed things up you would be much better off looking at a bandsaw which has a much thinner kerf. Even then I don't see any blitzing.
> 
> BTW if you are breathing too much smoke, what mix ratio are you running and have you considered an exhaust modification that redirects the exhaust away from the front of the saw. Most modern saws have exhausts that fire out the front which then bounces of the log up into the CSM operators face or down into their boots and legs. Redirecting the exhaust makes a really big difference when using a CSM.


very valid suggestions and reasoning, thanks for that..i'm going forward with the hydraulic system though. band saws seem to deflect from straight a bit too easily for my liking. i'm already headed down the hydraulic road to slabberville...


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