# 066/MS 660 port #'s. Please share your stock #'s



## chadihman (Sep 26, 2014)

I'd like to have an Idea of the changes made to the 066/660 jugs.

Here are the #'s for a 2014 MS 660 Stihl cylinder.
Exhaust 95 deg ATDC
Transfers 123 deg ATDC
Intake 100 deg ABDC or 80 deg BTDC
Blow down 28 deg
Squish .038"

I'd like to make this a sticky but have no idea how to.


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## big t double (Sep 26, 2014)

opcorn:


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## mdavlee (Sep 26, 2014)

I have them at home wrote down. The non decomp were 98 118 and 78 or something like that.


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## blsnelling (Sep 26, 2014)

I don't have the exact numbers, but the non-decomp I have isn't that low, IIRC.


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## mdavlee (Sep 26, 2014)

I had 3 different ones off 066s and they were all different. The KS was like chad said. 95 exhaust and 27-28 degrees of blowdown and 80 intake. I have checked 6or 7 cylinders that I remember.


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## chadihman (Sep 27, 2014)

opcorn:


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## DexterDay (Sep 27, 2014)

opcorn:
I smell something. ..

It's "Sticky"

This should be a good one. Lots of variables here and lots of info to be learned.


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## CR888 (Sep 28, 2014)

The ms660/066 series saws are 3 decades old with many little changes along the way. l have a late 2012 MS660 with decomp and this saw has through and through stihl DNA embedded within. However with todays improvements in AV, port design and fuel delivery a 2014 Stihl MS660 unfortuneately is utterly out dated and full of old tech. l like my masterminded 660 but it really does not represent the best option for a 90cc saw. l 
would love to help out with port numbers but l am far better at pulling the starter cord than using a degree wheel so l shall just sit back and enjoy the popcorn.


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## spencerpaving (Sep 28, 2014)

I just checked one yester day with my good eye and I came up with 95 ex 121 trans and 79 intake stock


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## chadihman (Sep 28, 2014)

spencerpaving said:


> I just checked one yester day with my good eye and I came up with 95 ex 121 trans and 79 intake stock


Any Idea what year that saw/ jug is? 066 or 660? Stihl or Mahle?


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## chadihman (Sep 28, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> opcorn:
> I smell something. ..
> 
> It's "Sticky"
> ...


 So how does this become a sticky? I sent a message to the moderator two days ago and heard nothing.


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## watsonr (Sep 28, 2014)

what's really surprising is the squish.... .038. So much for "OEM saws aren't set that high"


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## blsnelling (Sep 28, 2014)

Factory squish on my 066 was .017"!


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## watsonr (Sep 28, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I had 3 different ones off 066s and they were all different.



This is also very surprising, port timing not consistent. I would have thought it was very consistent in both squish and port timing... now wondering. Leads you to believe inconsistent manufacturing processes. This would confirm that some saws of the same model just run better than others.


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## spencerpaving (Sep 28, 2014)

chadihman said:


> Any Idea what year that saw/ jug is? 066 or 660? Stihl or Mahle?


It was a new stihl jug..the guy wanted it ported....its tuff to deal with numbers like that from the get go


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## mdavlee (Sep 28, 2014)

I'll go dig for them now. I forgot about it til just now.


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## mdavlee (Sep 28, 2014)

watsonr said:


> This is also very surprising, port timing not consistent. I would have thought it was very consistent in both squish and port timing... now wondering. Leads you to believe inconsistent manufacturing processes. This would confirm that some saws of the same model just run better than others.



They kept changing port timing from the early saws to later ones.


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## mdavlee (Sep 28, 2014)

I can't find all my notes. The last one I did was 96, 121, 78 stock. Ended up at 99, 119, 82.


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## Deets066 (Sep 28, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Factory squish on my 066 was .017"!


Mine was at .018 stock with gasket


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## Dieselshawn (Sep 28, 2014)

opcorn:


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## chadihman (Sep 29, 2014)

Making a sticky? Anyone?


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## chadihman (Sep 29, 2014)

opcorn:


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## mdavlee (Sep 29, 2014)

I can't find my old notebook with all the other saws I've checked.


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## komatsuvarna (Sep 29, 2014)

I had a flat top non redlight non decomp mahle 066. It was at 97-119-80 stock.


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## big t double (Sep 29, 2014)

I have an 066 jug that came off a red light and I have a newer 660 jug but no crankcases to check numbers...plus my "degree wheel" is pretty cheesy and I don't think I'd trust it...can I port map the cylinders some how to come up with anything to add here?


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## Deets066 (Sep 29, 2014)

big t double said:


> I have an 066 jug that came off a red light and I have a newer 660 jug but no crankcases to check numbers...plus my "degree wheel" is pretty cheesy and I don't think I'd trust it...can I port map the cylinders some how to come up with anything to add here?


Bring em on over Ted, just ordered a new degree wheel should be here in a day or so


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## big t double (Sep 29, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> Bring em on over Ted, just ordered a new degree wheel should be here in a day or so


Cool...I'd be happy to...I'll bring my homemade sheet metal wheel and you can mock it. You got a spare crankcase? I was also thinkin about the variance in piston height that you found...how bad would that affect port timing?


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## Deets066 (Sep 30, 2014)

big t double said:


> Cool...I'd be happy to...I'll bring my homemade sheet metal wheel and you can mock it. You got a spare crankcase? I was also thinkin about the variance in piston height that you found...how bad would that affect port timing?


I still have the jug off my 066 so we could check all three on there.

What are ideal numbers for an 066? Is it personal preference, or is there one set of numbers everyone aims at?


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## spencerpaving (Sep 30, 2014)

komatsuvarna said:


> I had a flat top non redlight non decomp mahle 066. It was at 97-119-80 stock.


those numbers look real nice...thhats why they run so well


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## DexterDay (Oct 2, 2014)

chadihman said:


> Making a sticky? Anyone?



Sorry...


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## Deets066 (Oct 3, 2014)

Should have numbers tomorrow if I get time


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

Mine
066 with base cut .030- 97, 122, 81
Teds
066 red light- 96,121, 77
Stock 660- 96,126, 83


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

So, where are the 066 jugs with lower exhaust?


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## fastLeo151 (Oct 5, 2014)

I have a 066 ks jug sitting on my 064 but its already been ported.


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> So, where are the 066 jugs with lower exhaust?


What do you think of those numbers brad? Are you sayin that exhaust is too high?


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

I've heard over the last few years that non-decomp 066 jugs have lower exhaust, or maybe it was Red Light 066s. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm just saying that we're not seeing them here. The one I have certainly does not.


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## mdavlee (Oct 5, 2014)

98 is the lowest exhaust I remember. It was a non decomp mahle.


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

98 is the lowest I've seen.

That better than the 95 I've seen in some new jugs. lol


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

Still trying to figure out what are desireable numbers for an 066?


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## fastLeo151 (Oct 5, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 98 is the lowest I've seen.
> 
> That better than the 95 I've seen in some new jugs. lol



What are you getting them to after machine work?


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## big t double (Oct 5, 2014)

To the guys that have experience porting these saws: how does the amount of blowdown affect how they run? That seemed to be the biggest difference in the red light 066 and stock 660 cylinder. Deets ported o66 jug, which has a decomp, has closer blowdown numbers to the red light.

Edit: for what it's worth the red light cylinder was a kohlbenschmidt


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

The correct blowdown is super important is making a saw run like you want. 32° of blowdown is just ridiculous, IMHO. This isn't a pipe saw, lol.


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

komatsuvarna said:


> I had a flat top non redlight non decomp mahle 066. It was at 97-119-80 stock.


I bet that one ran well.


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

Blowdown on my 066 and teds red light was 25 the 660 was 30


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> Blowdown on my 066 and teds red light was 25 the 660 was 30


Even 25° is too much for my taste.


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

I get the MS660 jugs down to 98 usually.


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## big t double (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Even 25° is too much for my taste.


So how would too much blowdown affect how the saw runs?


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

It won't turn the RPMs I want. Of course, you can go too high too.


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

So to you porters, if you had numbers like mine 97-122-81 what route would you go for porting?


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## komatsuvarna (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I bet that one ran well.



It run OK. I ported it and got 8th at the 066 buildoff IIRC. My 372xpw I had at the time was a second faster in the same cant with the same 32" bar and chain lol. Of course cutting a cookie with a 32"bar on a 70cc is different than working with it.

A guy in Louisiana bought that saw. Talked to him not long ago and it was still going strong. Other than a set of clutch springs he hadn't touched it.


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> So to you porters, if you had numbers like mine 97-122-81 what route would you go for porting?



I'd cut the squish to get the exhaust down to 100, then set the transfers at 118, and leave the intake port untouched.


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

Squish and base have been cut but only .030, thanks for the input


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd cut the squish to get the exhaust down to 100, then set the transfers at 118, and leave the intake port untouched.


I like those numbers. I still need to go back in my 064/066. All I probably need to do is cut the squish band and replace the popup piston. That would probably put me right where I need to be.


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> Squish and base have been cut but only .030, thanks for the input



You can take up to .070 out of the squish band on a 660 without the piston free porting in the exhaust.


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I like those numbers.





Deets066 said:


> Squish and base have been cut but only .030, thanks for the input


That one must have had a real high exhaust. Like Randy talks about, that's just counterintuitive for a big work saw intended for long bars.


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I like those numbers. I still need to go back in my 064/066. All I probably need to do is cut the squish band and replace the popup piston. That would probably put me right where I need to be.



On the 064, I'd set the exhaust at 100, the fingers at 116, and the mains at 118.


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> On the 064, I'd set the exhaust at 100, the fingers at 116, and the mains at 118.


You trying to stretch my wings? I've still not ventured into fingers. I thought you were just connecting the lowers to the uppers. No?


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## big t double (Oct 5, 2014)

Do you finger port all 064's. Man that just adds another variable to us slouches that are trying to get a grasp on port timing numbers hahaha. Do you remember if you added fingers to my 064...or bridge ports...I remember you saying you add bridge ports to all 1122 saws...or more specifically..non quad transfer jugs


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

I don't finger port many saws. Only a few really. 

I do like them in some models very well though. The 064 jug is plenty thick, and that makes it a great one to grind them in.....

I just used bridge ports in your 064 Ted.


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

I'll get her back on the wheel and see how much I need to take out to get it down closer to 100


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

An 066/660 that is at 100 on the exhaust is a fine unit to have. Most of the time 98 is as low as I get the 660 jug though. I take out .060" from the squish, and set the clearance at .022. That gives me about 210psi, and I don't want to go any higher on a working saw.


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I don't finger port many saws. Only a few really.
> 
> I do like them in some models very well though. The 064 jug is plenty thick, and that makes it a great one to grind them in.....
> 
> I just used bridge ports in your 064 Ted.


My 064 has a 066 jug. Would you still finger it? 

When it comes to 064s, that one of AndyDodge blew me away. That saw is a runner.


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## big t double (Oct 5, 2014)

Is there ever an issue with the plating not going high enough that you can't cut enough out to get your exhaust where you want?


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

Sticky


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

Brad, I just did a 064 with a red light 066 jug, with finger ports......it's a pretty good runner. 



big t double said:


> Is there ever an issue with the plating not going high enough that you can't cut enough out to get your exhaust where you want?



No Ted, the rings are about .140 down the bore if you include the squish clearance.......no worries.


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Brad, I just did a 064 with a red light 066 jug, with finger ports......it's a pretty good runner.


You may have to learn me how to finger a saw, lol


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

I use a very aggressive burr when I cut them. They really aren't hard to do. You will need a way to measure the bore thickness though. I found these, and got a set....

http://www.amazon.com/iGaging-8-Digital-Outside-Calipers/dp/B002PU77Q8

They just measure in .01" but work well for my needs.


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## mdavlee (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> You may have to learn me how to finger a saw, lol


It's easy. Lay finger in cylinder. Trace around with sharpy. Grind out inside the lines.[emoji12]


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> You may have to learn me how to finger a saw, lol


She will really scream when you get it right Brad!


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I use a very aggressive burr when I cut them. They really aren't hard to do. You will need a way to measure the bore thickness though. I found these, and got a set....
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/iGaging-8-Digital-Outside-Calipers/dp/B002PU77Q8
> 
> They just measure in .01" but work well for my needs.


There have definitely been times that I wished I had a tool like that. Putting the exhaust at 80° on my piped 390XP was a scary proposition! I may just order a pair of those right now. Thanks Randy.


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## big t double (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> You may have to learn me how to finger a saw, lol


Well it certainly got weird in here in a hurry


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> She will really scream when you get it right Brad!


Now that made me laugh out loud


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

They are made of plastic Brad.......they work well enough though.


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## mdavlee (Oct 5, 2014)

I cut the top of mine in with a 1/16" thick cut off wheel. It can make a nice square top if you don't bump it accidentally.


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2014)

Are you running a stock piston, just backwards?


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## Deets066 (Oct 5, 2014)

The 066 as it is now, I'll post up numbers and new pic when I'm done


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## fastLeo151 (Oct 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> You may have to learn me how to finger a saw, lol


Brad you are welcome to come run that saw anytime, fwiw


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## Mastermind (Oct 5, 2014)

Have you put much time on it yet Andrew?


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## fastLeo151 (Oct 5, 2014)

I've run it a little bit, I really like it. Ive yet to find some bigger wood to stretch it out yet


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## mdavlee (Oct 6, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Are you running a stock piston, just backwards?


Yes for the most part.


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## komatsuvarna (Oct 6, 2014)

181-281-288 is a good family of saws that responds well to finger ports. No piston mods to make either, the ring pin is in the center.

I done a set on a 181. Put in a nice wide set and made them open 2° before the main transfers. It ran pretty good....


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## komatsuvarna (Oct 6, 2014)




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## wigglesworth (Oct 6, 2014)

I've seen factory early non decomps at 99 on the exhaust, with a gasket...


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## wigglesworth (Oct 6, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I had 3 different ones off 066s and they were all different. The KS was like chad said. 95 exhaust and 27-28 degrees of blowdown and 80 intake. I have checked 6or 7 cylinders that I remember.



KS? As in Kolbensmidht ? 

Only seen one non-decomp KS 54mm cylinder. Seen several 064 KS cylinders...


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## wigglesworth (Oct 6, 2014)

Ain't had a wheel on it yet...


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## mdavlee (Oct 6, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> KS? As in Kolbensmidht ?
> 
> Only seen one non-decomp KS 54mm cylinder. Seen several 064 KS cylinders...


Yeah the new stihl cylinders are KS also.


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## wigglesworth (Oct 6, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah the new stihl cylinders are KS also.


 I see. This is an old school non-decomp I have...


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## Deets066 (Oct 6, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd cut the squish to get the exhaust down to 100, then set the transfers at 118, and leave the intake port untouched.


Would I benefit from bridge ports? I know ya put them in the 064, does the 066 benefit from them as well?


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## Deets066 (Oct 6, 2014)

My new piston is a KS


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## mdavlee (Oct 6, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> I see. This is an old school non-decomp I have...


I never seen one of those.


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## wigglesworth (Oct 6, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I never seen one of those.



Me either, till this one.


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## mdavlee (Oct 6, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Me either, till this one.


I bet it's probably got good numbers like the 64 cylinder.


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## wigglesworth (Oct 6, 2014)

Pistons are different too...

Non-decomp vs KS non-decomp


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## Deets066 (Oct 7, 2014)




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## Deets066 (Oct 7, 2014)

0.17 shorter than original Oem piston


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## komatsuvarna (Oct 7, 2014)

She running yet, Deets?


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## Deets066 (Oct 7, 2014)

Having squish issues, from wrist pin to top of piston the KS measures .017 shorter. Original squish was .018, base gasket is .018. Checked squish with new piston and gasket in four places and had .036-.038. Remove the gasket and it feels like it's barely hittin, it will roll past TDC, but can slightly feel a catch. Squish with no gasket measured mostly .017-.019, one spot read .012 Checked three times, but this doesn't explain the catch I'm feelin. Tomorrow I'll spray blueing on piston and roll her over a few times, maybe I have a high spot somewhere??


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## big t double (Oct 7, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> Having squish issues, from wrist pin to top of piston the KS measures .017 shorter. Original squish was .018, base gasket is .018. Checked squish with new piston and gasket in four places and had .036-.038. Remove the gasket and it feels like it's barely hittin, it will roll past TDC, but can slightly feel a catch. Squish with no gasket measured mostly .017-.019, one spot read .012 Checked three times, but this doesn't explain the catch I'm feelin. Tomorrow I'll spray blueing on piston and roll her over a few times, maybe I have a high spot somewhere??


opcorn:


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## Deets066 (Oct 8, 2014)

The blueing trick didn't work out for me, couldn't see any markings on piston


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## big t double (Oct 8, 2014)

It sure looked tight through the plug hole...I doubt this is it from the way it felt to me but do you think the catch is the magnets on the flywheel grabbing the coil?


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## Deets066 (Oct 8, 2014)

No, didn't feel it with the base gasket in. 
When the gasket is out it will roll over with ease but have a slight catch, which you also noticed. 
Now, when you plug the decomp and put the spark plug in it pulls over very hard, not just too much comp. but not quite right. So I think I can take care of it when I cut my squish and base, I'll just give her a little extra room than I usually would


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## MillerModSaws (Oct 9, 2014)

I just got this one in. Here's the initial numbers


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## Deets066 (Oct 9, 2014)

Looks like it needs help


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## Mastermind (Oct 9, 2014)

Take .060 outta the squish and raise the transfers wayyyyy up.


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## Deets066 (Oct 9, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Take .060 outta the squish and raise the transfers wayyyyy up.


Randy, I have .030 out of squish all ready, the new KS piston has a longer skirt than original. I have about.047 left on skirt before it freeports. How much more should I take?


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## MillerModSaws (Oct 9, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Take .060 outta the squish and raise the transfers wayyyyy up.


This is for a logging company. They run a 24" bar with rakers ground down .050". I was gonna go 120 sloped to 122. Unless ya think 118 sloped to 120 wld pull the ground takers good. I have my 066 seat at 120 flat but it was 98 to start with on exhaust.


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## Mastermind (Oct 9, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> Randy, I have .030 out of squish all ready, the new KS piston has a longer skirt than original. I have about.047 left on skirt before it freeports. How much more should I take?



Take .040 more.


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## Mastermind (Oct 9, 2014)

countryhunter79 said:


> This is for a logging company. They run a 24" bar with rakers ground down .050". I was gonna go 120 sloped to 122. Unless ya think 118 sloped to 120 wld pull the ground takers good. I have my 066 seat at 120 flat but it was 98 to start with on exhaust.



118......no slope.


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## MillerModSaws (Oct 9, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 118......no slope.


Ty. I don't know if the numbers help but I just measured the height on this 066 jug and exhaust port sets .035" lower than the 660 jug.


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## wcorey (Oct 9, 2014)

> Checked three times, but this doesn't explain the catch I'm feelin. Tomorrow I'll spray blueing on piston and roll her over a few times, maybe I have a high spot somewhere??



Squish cut by .030, no contact at .038, contact at .017...
Did you maybe leave a slight ridge in the bore where you cut the squish?


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## stihl for life (Oct 10, 2014)

countryhunter79 said:


> View attachment 372889
> I just got this one in. Here's the initial numbers


One ugly start to a 660 . 2 years of logging really beat down on a saw .


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## Deets066 (Oct 10, 2014)

wcorey said:


> Squish cut by .030, no contact at .038, contact at .017...
> Did you maybe leave a slight ridge in the bore where you cut the squish?


It's a very good possibility, and kinda what I been thinking. I plan on cuttin more out, when I get time to get it over to the shop


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## Mastermind (Oct 10, 2014)

I "touch off" .040 down the bore after finding the top of the jug. There is always some weirdness at the very top......


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## blsnelling (Oct 10, 2014)

countryhunter79 said:


> View attachment 372889
> I just got this one in. Here's the initial numbers


Should be ready for a pipe. High exhaust, lots of blowdown...


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## wigglesworth (Oct 10, 2014)

Deets066 said:


> It's a very good possibility, and kinda what I been thinking. I plan on cuttin more out, when I get time to get it over to the shop



I bet u have a ridge up twords the top. Either that, or your feeling the difference between worn plating and new plating...


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## Mastermind (Oct 10, 2014)

What would you know about worn plating......you ain't run a saw enough in your life to wear any damn plating.


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## wigglesworth (Oct 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> What would you know about worn plating......you ain't run a saw enough in your life to wear any damn plating.



Oh, go touch off on something.


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## MillerModSaws (Oct 10, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Should be ready for a pipe. High exhaust, lots of blowdown...


Hmmmm! How long exactly do think it wld take them to rip off a pipe in the logging industry's. Lmao. One of my local loggers logs walnut. He will destroy, smash, whatever a saw before he splits a walnut. Lol.


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## blsnelling (Oct 10, 2014)

My comment was just to point out how bad those port timing numbers are for a work saw.


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## Mastermind (Oct 10, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> Oh, go touch off on something.



When I grow up, I wanna be like you.


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## MillerModSaws (Oct 10, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> My comment was just to point out how bad those port timing numbers are for a work saw.


This will help! Lol.


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## wigglesworth (Oct 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> When I grow up, I wanna be like you.



A narcoleptic zombie?


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## Deets066 (Oct 10, 2014)

wigglesworth said:


> I bet u have a ridge up twords the top. Either that, or your feeling the difference between worn plating and new plating...


I don't think its plateing or cylinder walls, not only can you feel it, but you can hear it


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## Deets066 (Oct 10, 2014)

I could be wrong though, it wouldn't be the first time!


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## MillerModSaws (Oct 10, 2014)

Here's the numbers now for earlier jug.


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## Mastermind (Oct 10, 2014)

That is gonna be a runner now.


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## wigglesworth (Oct 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> That is gonna be a runner now.



Right now? 

That's some magic wand stuff there randy...


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## Mastermind (Oct 11, 2014)

I know right?


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## chadihman (Oct 16, 2014)

Got a used mahle today. 97 exhaust 80 intake and 120 transfers.


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## Deets066 (Oct 23, 2014)

Finally going to get the 066 jug machined tomorrow. Also taking the new piston for the 046, which is an 064 piston. From wrist pin to top is identical, but the skirt on the new piston is .103" longer. How is this going to affect performance?


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## chadihman (Oct 23, 2014)

The 064 piston needs the boss widened for the 460 rod to fit in. Makes a nice piston for making a pop up.


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## Deets066 (Oct 23, 2014)

I checked the new piston and you are correct, it does need widened. I don't remeber doin that on the last one? Did they have different size rods on the 064 or are they all the same?


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## Deets066 (Oct 23, 2014)

Anyone have any input on how the long skirt will affect performance, obviously it would change port timing on intake right?


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## blsnelling (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes it would. Cut the skirts to fit. Easy peasy.


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## chadihman (Oct 23, 2014)

The longer skirt will take the intake the wrong way. The 064 piston is taller and has a longer skirt. If you push the wrist pin in half way you can push the 460 piston on the other half then you can see the difference. Mine measured .061" taller on the crown and about the same for the skirt length. You can cut a .060" pop up piston out of the 064 and you will gain lots of compression without cutting the squish or lowering the jug. The skirt can be shortened on the intake side to get the timing # you want.

Darn Brad got in there before I could get my measurements and finish the post.


----------



## blsnelling (Oct 23, 2014)

A popoup of .060" would not leave enough crown thickness. .035" is about as far as you want to go. A crown thickness of .100 is generally considered a safe minimum.


----------



## chadihman (Oct 23, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> A popoup of .060" would not leave enough crown thickness. .035" is about as far as you want to go. A crown thickness of .100 is generally considered a safe minimum.


 I just measured my meteor 064 piston. The crown to the first ring grove is .144" -.060"=.084" Add another .010 to .015 for a tighter squish and now you have .094 to .099


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## Deets066 (Oct 24, 2014)

I had an 064 pop up in this saw already, it had a .040 pop up before. Which is what I will do again, I was just curious what the longer skirt would do to me. I'll just trim to match the old


----------



## chadihman (Oct 24, 2014)

I have three meteor and four gulf 064 pistons I bought a long time ago. I'd like to do some 046/460 testing with. I need to get a small milling machine.


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## Mastermind (Oct 24, 2014)

I never have seen any reason to use a different piston. I can get the specs right where I want them with the stock piston. 

What is the advantage in using the 064 piston? I don't see one.


----------



## blsnelling (Oct 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I never have seen any reason to use a different piston. I can get the specs right where I want them with the stock piston.
> 
> What is the advantage in using the 064 piston? I don't see one.


The experimentation can be fun, but I agree with you . I don't think I've ever had an alternative piston work better than stock.


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## Mastermind (Oct 24, 2014)

I remember when I was convinced that I got gains from opening the piston windows........

So much has changed over the last few years.


----------



## Deets066 (Oct 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I never have seen any reason to use a different piston. I can get the specs right where I want them with the stock piston.
> 
> What is the advantage in using the 064 piston? I don't see one.


I used the 064 piston for a pop up/ domed piston. Not sure if I was on the right track or not but it was blowin 205 psi. What are good port timing numbers for an 046?


----------



## Mastermind (Oct 24, 2014)

MS460

Stock:
Compression: 155psi
Squish: .017 W/O Base Gasket
Ex: 101.5°
Tr: 122°
In: 74°

Ported:
Compression: 205psi
Squish: .023
Ex: 99°
Tr: 117°
In: 82°

Notes:
.035 was removed from the squish band, and .030 from the cylinder base for
a compression of 205psi.
Ignition timing was also advanced .020 at the key.


----------



## chadihman (Oct 25, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I never have seen any reason to use a different piston. I can get the specs right where I want them with the stock piston.
> 
> What is the advantage in using the 064 piston? I don't see one.


I had an Idea of cutting a bunch for just an easy compression gain. Now that I'm cutting bases and squish bands I see no need for the 064 pistons. I'd sell the ones I have.


----------



## Deets066 (Oct 25, 2014)

Thanks for sharing Randy I'll give a closer look here in the near future.


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## Deets066 (Oct 25, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> MS460
> 
> Stock:
> Compression: 155psi
> ...


Wouldn't cutting the base lower the exhaust? I'm not doubting you randy, just trying to get a better idea.


----------



## Mastermind (Oct 25, 2014)

Do the machine work first. Then the port work.


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## chadihman (Jan 4, 2015)

I've been researching the old 066's because I'm working on one now. This 066 is a 93 and it has a cylinder with no decompression. I'm trying to figure out why old 066 saws get so much praise for being more powerful. This one was tired so it didn't do well on the dyno. I did check the port timing.
EX 95 deg atdc
TR 125 deg atdc
IN 99 deg btdc
The #'s don't look any better than the current #'s. Is the more powerful 066 just a myth?


----------



## singletrack100 (Jan 4, 2015)




----------



## mdavlee (Jan 4, 2015)

I put a wheel on 2 of the non decomp a few weeks back. 96 122 and 78-79. I'm going off memory since the note pad is at home.


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## Mastermind (Jan 4, 2015)

Some non decomp jugs are nothing special. I recently had a decomp jug with the exhaust at 98.


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 4, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Some non decomp jugs are nothing special. I recently had a decomp jug with the exhaust at 98.


Yeah there's no sure thing to have great numbers with a non decomp. Seems there's about 6-7 different runs of cylinders out there for them.


----------



## Duke Thieroff (Jan 4, 2015)

Hmmmm.....


066, eh?


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 4, 2015)

Got my 066 cylinder back, havent checked the numbers yet. Don't like like much room for the spark plug lol


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 5, 2015)

Ok fellas need a little help here. When I got my new piston it was .017" shorter than original. I removed base gasket trying to keep my squish where I wanted it, didn't work, felt like piston was hittin top of cylinder. But it wasn't it was hittin the transfer in the plateing from where it use to run. I wasn't sure if that was the case at the time, but since I have cut squish and base and figured I give myself a little more squish. Put it together today and realized that the plateing was my problem. The piston will roll past where it hits but a little force is needed.
Not sure what the best fix is


----------



## Moparmyway (Feb 5, 2015)

Are you sure the plating isnt small aluminum transferr ?
If its the plating, is it at the edge of the transferr port, if so you could just bevel it, no ?
Is the piston hitting it or are the rings getting snagged on it ?


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 5, 2015)

Rings aren't even on the piston, it only hits at top dead center,
I lowered the jug, piston is traveling into uncharted territory.


----------



## Moparmyway (Feb 5, 2015)

Did you cut the squish all the way to the cylinder wall ?


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 5, 2015)

I didn't cut it, a friend of mine is a machinist. Thats a possibility, I will talk to him tomorrow. Just wondering if any of the builders have come across this before


----------



## chadihman (Feb 5, 2015)

I had this happen on one of the jugs I rushed on. I had the jug off center a few thousands and the squish band was cut flush to the cylinder wall on one side and not the other. Made me so darn mad when I felt the stick of the piston ATDC. I had to center it all up again on the lathe and cut a sliver.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 5, 2015)

So I'm not the only one


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

Haven't fixed the jug yet but I did get some numbers 
Ex. 100
In. 83
Trans. 127
Blowdown. 17


----------



## chadihman (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Haven't fixed the jug yet but I did get some numbers
> Ex. 100
> In. 83
> Trans. 127
> Blowdown. 17


 Exhaust sounds good. Transfers need to be taken up. Intake is nice. I usually have the intake at 85 when I cut the cylinder to get the exhaust to 100. The intake can usually be widened and squared off quite a bit so I don't think 85 is necessary. I'd like to raise the intake floor on one with jb weld and try 100 119 and 80


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

my transfers were at 118 and intake at 80 before I dropped the jug down, if I could get back there I think I would have a runner. These are also numbers randy has suggested.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> my transfers were at 118 and intake at 80 before I dropped the jug down, if I could get back there I think I would have a runner. These are also numbers randy has suggested.


Upper transfers are my least favorite to grind at but it is necessary to get them back up. Don't go crazy on them. Keeping them the same size and shape up at 120-118 will make a good runner.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 10, 2015)

You'll do good with your intake there. Raise the transfers back up, widen you ports, and you'll be golden.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

There is a small ridge on the bottom of the intake, removing this will obviously lower it more. But it bothers me should it stay or go?


----------



## chadihman (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> There is a small ridge on the bottom of the intake, removing this will obviously lower it more. But it bothers me should it stay or go?


I take that darn lip away. It will probably take your intake to 84 or 85 but that's still just fine


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

I was hopeing you would say that


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

Don't touch the intake.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 10, 2015)

Better yet. Ruff the bottom of the intake and fill with jb weld to make a smooth run. Like I said earlier lowering the jug to get my exhaust were I want it usually puts the intake to 85 I would prefer if it would stay closer to 80


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Better yet. Ruff the bottom of the intake and fill with jb weld to make a smooth run. Like I said earlier lowering the jug to get my exhaust were I want it usually puts the intake to 85 *I would prefer if it would stay closer to 80*



Now your making sense.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

My old man is goin to think I'm nuts when he sees me pourin epoxy in my jug.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I had this happen on one of the jugs I rushed on. I had the jug off center a few thousands and the squish band was cut flush to the cylinder wall on one side and not the other. Made me so darn mad when I felt the stick of the piston ATDC. I had to center it all up again on the lathe and cut a sliver.



Just make it a habit to over cut a few .001s.....


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

I had to drop the jug .071" to get the exhaust to 100*


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> My old man is goin to think I'm nuts when he sees me pourin epoxy in my jug.



It will run fine at 83.......just don't do anything to go any lower. I wouldn't touch the intake or the exhaust with a burr. Just raise the transfers, bridge port it and go..


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I had to drop the jug .071" to get the exhaust to 100*



How much is it free porting?


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

It's not


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> How much is it free porting?


It's a ks piston, it's shorter from wrist pin to top of piston, and much longer skirt. It's almost like the wrist pin bosses were raised up


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

Cool. That's good to know.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 10, 2015)

Try it without touching the intake or exhaust.......if you decide to go back in, well it will be there. But you can't put it back as easy. lol

My thinking is this. On the exhaust I sure don't want any more T/A........and one the intake......well I don't need any more.


----------



## tree monkey (Feb 10, 2015)

you have a good one to get those numbers, don't mess it up. do what mm said


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

This is the saw that my friend ported already, but very mild. Blended lower transfers(slightly) widend exhaust at the top tapering down to stock on the bottom of the port.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

Here's the pic again


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> How much is it free porting?



Have you ever cut so much out of the squish that the spark plug hits? Lol this one had me wondering because it looks close but doesn't hit


----------



## tree monkey (Feb 10, 2015)

slide a straight edge in there to see if it's cut all the way


----------



## tree monkey (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Have you ever cut so much out of the squish that the spark plug hits? Lol this one had me wondering because it looks close but doesn't hit



yes


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

It's not, small ridge on one side so he's fixin it as soon a I get a chance to swing by his house


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> yes


Does it cause problems if they are too close but not hitting


----------



## big t double (Feb 10, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> yes


Did you have to change to a shorter cone spark plug?


----------



## tree monkey (Feb 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Does it cause problems if they are too close but not hitting



no


----------



## tree monkey (Feb 10, 2015)

big t double said:


> Did you have to change to a shorter cone spark plug?



I put a divot in the piston


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I put a divot in the piston


De-poped


----------



## shorthunter (Feb 10, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> KS? As in Kolbensmidht ?
> 
> Only seen one non-decomp KS 54mm cylinder. Seen several 064 KS cylinders...



The 066 that I am trading to Cobey has a non decomp KS cylinder


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 10, 2015)

Thanks for all the info fellas


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## ft. churchill (Feb 11, 2015)

This 064 run weak. #'s stock were 74* 128* 105* My weakest old 70cc saws would out run it. That's not where it is now.


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## LegDeLimber (Feb 11, 2015)

That top is badly off center.
Does your buddy not have an indicator that will reach all the way into that cylinder?
if not, is there a continuous band in the region above the transfers & below the exhaust
that the indicator could run against?
If so then dial 'er in from that and the bottom region.
(or go with the Tree Monkey method)
Trying to do it off the gasket face of the base flange will bite you in the ass. 
A few thou distortion there, will translate into a lot at the top.
and forget thinking you can "estimate" around it either.


----------



## wyk (Feb 11, 2015)

And someone don't forget to put one of these bad boys on a scale PHO empty for posterities sake.


----------



## Tractorsaw1 (Feb 11, 2015)

I missed this some how earlier, but the non decompression jug I had did the same thing as Deets. I cut a .035 pop up & it hit something, kept thinking my math was wrong as what I took off the base & I know it wasn't there must be some funk at the top of the early cylinders, it sure does have a big angled ceiling, I am getting ready to remedy that though.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 11, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Have you ever cut so much out of the squish that the spark plug hits? Lol this one had me wondering because it looks close but doesn't hit


Yes it was aftermarket test jug. I hate most aftermarket jugs. Way to much grinding to do.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 11, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> That top is badly off center.
> Does your buddy not have an indicator that will reach all the way into that cylinder?
> if not, is there a continuous band in the region above the transfers & below the exhaust
> that the indicator could run against?
> ...


He indicated around the base, live and learn.


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## LegDeLimber (Feb 12, 2015)

Make sure that if the base/gasket face was cut true to the bore and not off of the original
indication method.
If it was cut in the first way, I'd strongly recommend a re-cut after truing it to the bore.
and plan on using a thin gasket. Lotta good paper stock around that can be utilized, just measure things (jug & squish plus the papers) do the math and
recheck & double check it all after assembly.

Just the absolutely lightest skim you can clean it up with and have a full, unbroken cut 
from the cylinder spigot out to [[ at the *very* least ]] the middle of all four bolt holes.

Reason for this is not wanting to see your piston trying that diagonal alignment and the rod and bearings wanting to take a strait/vertical path.
Not good at all, for things, if they are on divergent tracks.
just envision the piston trying to run on the bottom skirt on one side and up around the ring area is carrying the load, on the opposite side.
The rod and crank bearing also get the twisted loadings, puts an ugly stressor in those things.....
--
Hope I'm not sounding grumpy, more shots in the knees yesterday
and that stuff always leaves me in a bit of a disdainful mood, for a few days.
and it can be far more than I could ever think myself worthy of, on the regular days.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 12, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> Make sure that if the base/gasket face was cut true to the bore and not off of the original
> indication method.
> If it was cut in the first way, I'd strongly recommend a re-cut after truing it to the bore.
> and plan on using a thin gasket. Lotta good paper stock around that can be utilized, just measure things (jug & squish plus the papers) do the math and
> ...


There's nothing better than cutting a new mandrel to fit a jug for base cutting. Once it's cut to size slide the jug on and put the live center on it and it's ready to cut the base 100% truly square to the bore. This is where I think sanding the base could get you out of square a tad. I'd rather cut 10 bases to one squish on the lathe. Just might try a sanding mandrel for squish removal.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 12, 2015)

I don't get where cutting squish is a bit of trouble. I timed myself on an MS261 a few days ago. Ten minutes from start to finish.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 12, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I don't get where cutting squish is a bit of trouble. I timed myself on an MS261 a few days ago. Ten minutes from start to finish.


Impressive Randy. Practice makes perfect


----------



## ft. churchill (Feb 12, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I don't get where cutting squish is a bit of trouble. I timed myself on an MS261 a few days ago. Ten minutes from start to finish.


 But you are the "Mastermind".


----------



## LegDeLimber (Feb 12, 2015)

chadihman said:


> There's nothing better than cutting a new mandrel to fit a jug for base cutting. Once it's cut to size slide the jug on and put the live center on it and it's ready to cut the base 100% truly square to the bore. This is where I think sanding the base could get you out of square a tad. I'd rather cut 10 bases to one squish on the lathe. Just might try a sanding mandrel for squish removal.



Sorta gives you a new and respectful appreciation for the guys who hand lapped
or set up each lens blank in the fixtures and ran the job,
for of optics for so many of our telescopes.
Doesn't it!
I'm talking about the years before so much computer controlled and tightly toleranced and better bearinged machinery.
oh, and there are some geometrical features to our bodies muscle-skeletal movements, that were noted & capitalized upon for these tasks.



Mastermind said:


> I don't get where cutting squish is a bit of trouble. I timed myself on an MS261 a few days ago. Ten minutes from start to finish.



Once I worked out the tooling & all of my procedures it took me from about 14~18 to the clean off the old lathe and swap-in, then true up and secure one (of those two) front drums you see on that series of roller.
You gotta think about what you're doing and why....
I could give ya a rundown of welding the parts and assembling the front end also.


----------



## spencerpaving (Feb 12, 2015)

LegDeLimber said:


> Sorta gives you a new and respectful appreciation for the guys who hand lapped
> or set up each lens blank in the fixtures and ran the job,
> for of optics for so many of our telescopes.
> Doesn't it!
> ...


You work for leeboy?


----------



## LegDeLimber (Feb 12, 2015)

spencerpaving said:


> You work for leeboy?


 Back in the early 90's, before they got it sold. Got lucky that there was simply a lot of low hanging fruit left in the work methods, so it made a lot of things easy to improve.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 12, 2015)

Well, without rushing at all.......and even going out too shoot a few rounds with the grandkids, it took me an hour and 30 minutes to cut two squish bands, check clearances, cut the bases, and check clearances again.


----------



## spencerpaving (Feb 12, 2015)

We have run leeboy pavers for 18 years...knew Mike Lee for years...like you said it was easy to recommend improvments in equipment before it was sold....it was a lot more family orented


----------



## LegDeLimber (Feb 12, 2015)

Ah, so you've driven down the runway, past the hanger, aka roller shop?
Give ya 3 guesses as to who blocked those gable louvers open (at the rear of the building) and reversed wired the fans, so as to pull air from across that blackberry thicket, instead of all that sweltering blacktop out front.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 12, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Well, without rushing at all.......and even going out too shoot a few rounds with the grandkids, it took me an hour and 30 minutes to cut two squish bands, check clearances, cut the bases, and check clearances again.


Since we are on the topic of numbers, what timing numbers do ya use in the 064? If ya don't mind me asking


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 12, 2015)

It depends on where the intake lands......it's never a one size for all units thing. 

I don't lower the intake any after machine work, but I widen the bottom 2/3 or so as wide as possible. Then I barely clip the lip on the lower edge of the transfer openings. The exhaust at 101, transfers between 122 and 118, depending on the intake height.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 12, 2015)

Bump bump
Anyone got any 066's under the knife out there?

Final porting numbers on my 066 were
Ex. 101
Trans. 118
In. 83
With four bridge ports, I'm lookin for more crankcase compression. Would epoxying the intake up give me what I'm lookin for?


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 13, 2015)

I have a 066 mahle that is 100 120 and 70 something can't remember it but I know it was in the 70's it wasn't far from that stock. It has bridge ports and is the strongest I've done. All the 660's I do the exhaust is always 95 or 96.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Bump bump
> Anyone got any 066's under the knife out there?
> 
> Final porting numbers on my 066 were
> ...


Yes that would help.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Yes that would help.


How high should I go? I know I can always grind it out if I want, should I start at 76?


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2015)

Sounds like a good number to me.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

anyone have any pics of a 66 case opened up with the crank in? How much extra room is in there?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

Ted has his 066 up to tree monkey I'm curious about his numbers and where he's goin with that one


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Sounds like a good number to me.


How do you locate your number on the cylinder for intake? I haven't figured that part out yet.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2015)

Degree wheel.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Degree wheel.


I can find my intake number, but how do I get it to the cylinder, obviously the ring trick don't work here


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2015)

Measure on the skirt. Mark and lay out how many degrees you want to raise it.


----------



## Sty57 (Sep 13, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> I put a divot in the piston


Have you guys ever tried spark plug indexing washers on the plug if it hits?
I used them on my Sled and Wheelers before. 

Thanks, Brian


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Bump bump
> Anyone got any 066's under the knife out there?
> 
> Final porting numbers on my 066 were
> ...


Do us a favor and try it the way it is first. Timed cuts would be fantastic.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Do us a favor and try it the way it is first. Timed cuts would be fantastic.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

Second vid is shot, I'll have to upload again


----------



## t4driller (Sep 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> anyone have any pics of a 66 case opened up with the crank in? How much extra room is in there?


I have an 066 opened up right now with the crank still in it if you want pics. Just let me know and I'll do what I can. 

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Do us a favor and try it the way it is first. Timed cuts would be fantastic.


I take it you don't have much faith in raising the intake? 
I think that's where the 44 and 64 hybrids get their spunk, velocity. So if a guy can find a way to get more velocity out of any saw I think your headed in a good direction.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

t4driller said:


> I have an 066 opened up right now with the crank still in it if you want pics. Just let me know and I'll do what I can.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Yeah, if you don't mind.


----------



## t4driller (Sep 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Yeah, if you don't mind.








I don't know how much help these are. Did you want pics of the case split? This is a red light 066. Just got it and still trying to figure out exactly what I have. If there is any other pics you need just let me know.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

I was talking about split, but by the looks of it there ain't much room there.
Thanks


----------



## big t double (Sep 13, 2015)

I have a partially assembled 064 that should be of absolutely no help to you...want to see a picture


----------



## t4driller (Sep 13, 2015)

Yeah, there's not much room in there for anything. 

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

big t double said:


> I have a partially assembled 064 that should be of absolutely no help to you...want to see a picture


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 13, 2015)

I just finished a 660 that's 99 118 84 with bridges and didn't touch the exhaust, widened and squared a little on the intake and clipped the lip on the lower transfer and that's it. Strongest 660 I've done and i do lots of them. I've bn over thinking that saw.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

Don't get me wrong I think my saw runs pretty good, just tryin to squeeze a little more out of it.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)




----------



## DexterDay (Sep 13, 2015)

Do most builders do dual bridge ports?


I thought the purpose was to direct the intake towards the exhaust?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

This was the vid that was messed up above. This is also probably the hardest wood that I have ever cut.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

DexterDay said:


> Do most builders do dual bridge ports?
> 
> 
> I thought the purpose was to direct the intake towards the exhaust?


No they don't, this is why you shouldn't drink while grinding. Lol 
I wasn't payin attention and ground the first one one exhaust side.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I take it you don't have much faith in raising the intake?
> I think that's where the 44 and 64 hybrids get their spunk, velocity. So if a guy can find a way to get more velocity out of any saw I think your headed in a good direction.


My 440/460 hybrids run an intake of 85°.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> My 440/460 hybrids run an intake of 85°.


Right, but that 046 cylinder has more case compression on an 044 case than it does on an 046 case.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

Using bridge ports improves, adds flow but decreases compression and velocity. So keeping a higher intake will aid in getting some of that back.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 13, 2015)

I don't use bridge ports and run similar intake timing on 440s and 460s as well. Different strokes for different folk. It's what works for me.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I don't use bridge ports and run similar intake timing on 440s and 460s as well. Different strokes for different folk. It's what works for me.


It does work just fine, I have an 046 ported very similar to how you do Brad, pop up and a lower intake at 83 or 84. It runs great, just trying something a little different here. Like I said before, if I don't like it. I can always grind it back out.


----------



## wigglesworth (Sep 13, 2015)

The earliest of earliest 066 cylinders are by far the strongest of the stock cylinders.

They're easy to recognize by the thin, 064 like base, and no decomp. All the ones I've seen were KS cylinders as well. Kinda like an oem BB 064. 

Last one I degreed was 99/119/80 IIRC. 

The RL saws have a factory ignition advance of 31-32 degrees. The later 1300 coiled saws are at 27 degrees. 

I put a stock early 066 cylinder on a late model poly flywheel saw with the ignition advanced in the 066 buildoff. It didn't come in last....


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## jmssaws (Sep 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> No they don't, this is why you shouldn't drink while grinding. Lol
> I wasn't payin attention and ground the first one one exhaust side.


I almost done that a couple days ago, but it was on someone else's saw, I mean about to put the bur to it and caught myself. Hell one day it may take 7 or 8 bridges in a cylinder to make one run and u just Louis and clarked it.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 13, 2015)

I know there are a few different carbs for 066's. Mine has a WJ48, is the 69 better? Or does it just have the bigger jet?


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 13, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> The earliest of earliest 066 cylinders are by far the strongest of the stock cylinders.
> 
> They're easy to recognize by the thin, 064 like base, and no decomp. All the ones I've seen were KS cylinders as well. Kinda like an oem BB 064.
> 
> ...


The old mahle on my 64 has the thickest base I ever cn, I believe it was 98 120 75


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## jmssaws (Sep 14, 2015)

Don't know. The carb on my 64 is off a 660 but has no limiters and I didn't know they made a 660 without caps. My 660 and the few sitting around here have a 69 on them


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## Moparmyway (Sep 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I know there are a few different carbs for 066's. Mine has a WJ48, is the 69 better? Or does it just have the bigger jet?


They came with many different carbs ..............
WJ65, WJ67, WJ69, and the WJ76 carbs came with one of 4 jets.

.62 (high altitude)
.64 (most saws come with this jet)
.72 (Arctic)
.74 (BR version)

Any of the 4 carbs will take any of the jets

Newer 660's with the WJ76 came with .74 jet


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## Mastermind (Sep 14, 2015)

I filled the intake on a 066 jug up to 78°. It was not really any faster in wood up to 25" or so, but in larger wood it had more pulling power.


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## Moparmyway (Sep 14, 2015)

I got a ported 066. 
It runs 102, 122, and 77
It pulls a 36" .404 setup for stumping duties with absolutely rediculous authority !!


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## mdavlee (Sep 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I filled the intake on a 066 jug up to 78°. It was not really any faster in wood up to 25" or so, but in larger wood it had more pulling power.


I can believe that. Seems it helps to keep torque going. The one I did with the intake filled pulled a 50" pretty well.


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 14, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I filled the intake on a 066 jug up to 78°. It was not really any faster in wood up to 25" or so, but in larger wood it had more pulling power.


I've noticed that around 80 they seem to pull better. The mahle on my 064 after lowering it 040 is in the 70's still and u can tell. I've never raised the transfers past 120 but went to 118 on a 660 yesterday with the exhaust at 98 and it seems stronger than average but the dang intake is at 85 and I completely agree that that is to much intake,sure it's a beast but it's more of one with a lower number.


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## Deets066 (Sep 14, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> I got a ported 066.
> It runs 102, 122, and 77
> It pulls a 36" .404 setup for stumping duties with absolutely rediculous authority !!


How much does it Freeport?


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## mdavlee (Sep 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> How much does it Freeport?


None.


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## Deets066 (Sep 14, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> None.


Nice!
Newer KS piston?


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## Moparmyway (Sep 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Nice!
> Newer KS piston?


Meteor
Lower line is where mdavlee set her, so no free porting by about 0.012"

I have ran ported 066's before ............... this one just makes me laugh. 
Its brutal ! 
It might not spin past 14k, but it keeps above 12k in the cut with a 36" and .404


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## Deets066 (Sep 14, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Meteor
> Lower line is where mdavlee set her, so no free porting by about 0.012"
> 
> I have ran ported 066's before ............... this one just makes me laugh.
> ...



Mine has a goofy combustion chamber otherwise I'm sure it would be up there in comp with yours. Mines at 210. 

Looks like your crank got a little warm.


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## Moparmyway (Sep 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Mine has a goofy combustion chamber otherwise I'm sure it would be up there in comp with yours. Mines at 210.
> 
> Looks like your crank got a little warm.



Mine has a strange looking small chamber ........... I dont understand why dudes here tell me all the time that bigger is more betterer 

She certainly didnt stay cool !!!


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## jmssaws (Sep 14, 2015)

Kinda off topic but I've had several 660's apart and in the clutch,chain break are that are rotted away I've had a few pull the pin out hooking the spring back up, and I don't mean 1 or 2 ,almost everyone I take apart, don't notice it on any other saw just a 660. Anybody else cn this?


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## Deets066 (Sep 14, 2015)

Is this too much to epoxy?


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## Deets066 (Sep 14, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> They came with many different carbs ..............
> WJ65, WJ67, WJ69, and the WJ76 carbs came with one of 4 jets.
> 
> .62 (high altitude)
> ...


I just looked, mine has the 62 jet. Probly why I'm 1-3/4 turns out huh


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## drf255 (Sep 15, 2015)

So when you have a higher intake, and therefore more case compression, what does that make you want to do to the upper transfers?

Will more case compression allow you to keep them lower (higher deg), with more blowdown, because the charge has more pressure to fill the cylinder quicker?

Or does it allow you to raise them higher (lower deg), because the greater charge pressure will allow them to start filling against exhaust pressure sooner?

Or does none of the theory matter, and they work where they work by experience?

The exhaust/transfer pressure differential has to have some role in the secrets of 2 stroke performance as I see it.

The above question is still bewildering me.

So on a 4 port motor, I see that the uppers are much lower (higher degrees wise) cause they can fill a cylinder in less time.

So what I'm getting here is that the larger the cross sectional area of the upper and the higher the case pressure, the lower (numerically higher) the transfers can be set at.

So bigger area upper=more volume, less charge speed. Tighter smaller uppers=less volume, more speed. 

Higher intake=more charge pressure. So more speed in either of the above. 

So adding bridges/fingers and widening transfers (increasing area while open) should force you to run a higher transfer (lower number) if you don't raise the intake. The more you raise the intake, the lower you can drop the upper transfer because charge pressure will be higher, and scavenging more betterer.

Sorry for the hijack. Still trying wrap the brain around this one.


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## Moparmyway (Sep 15, 2015)

drf255 said:


> The exhaust/transfer pressure differential has to have some role in the secrets of 2 stroke performance as I see it.


I believe this is one very large reason why a muffler mod works so well on certain models ............. it takes the transferr/exhaust pressure relationship and alters it for the better in that the transferrs are more productive, pushing against a lower pressure exhaust (read; transferrs start scavenging earlier and have an easier time pushing out any combusted gasses ). Its not just the timing/duration of opening and closing of ports, its also the efficiency of the mix flowing through them ports and moving on through the motor. 

Each phase of the 2 stroke cycle has its own relationship with the previous and following cycle that must be considered when altering port timing and/or port time area. 

Seems that you have wrapped your head around the theories involved ................. now on to more porting and machining !


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

Sound like good theories Al. I have my uppers set at 118, I'm goin to leave em there and see how it does. 

It looks like an aweful lot to epoxy to get up to 77. That's what I had the wheel set at when I took that pic of the intake. But, I'll give her a go today after work and see what I can do with it.


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## Moparmyway (Sep 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> View attachment 447461
> 
> Is this too much to epoxy?


No


Deets066 said:


> Sound like good theories Al. I have my uppers set at 118, I'm goin to leave em there and see how it does.
> 
> It looks like an aweful lot to epoxy to get up to 77. That's what I had the wheel set at when I took that pic of the intake. But, I'll give her a go today after work and see what I can do with it.


Should look similar to this when you are done


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## drf255 (Sep 15, 2015)

Intake floor and exhaust roof shapes got me a bit perplexed at well. 

It seems like a pointier rounder area in either of these ports would cause more of a difference in character at rpm.

For instance, a upside down teardrop shaped intake. It would close later at low rpm's (actual), but because of fluid and air dynamics, it will trap charge sooner at higher rpm than what it shows on a degree wheel.

Case in point, I recently did a saw and was paranoid with the exhaust roof for ring wear. I went really round with the roof when I raised it. It's bleeding off compression with a compression tester when testing at pulling rpm. I'm only getting 165psi on a 60cc saw with a 103* roof. 

I have no proof that dynamic compression is higher, but it sure seems to be. The saw is snappy as hell and has the power and revs way beyond what the saw was stock with a muff mod and nearly the same compression.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 15, 2015)

And I took .039 from the SB and have a squish of .020 vs the stock .034.


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## Moparmyway (Sep 15, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Case in point, I recently did a saw and was paranoid with the exhaust roof for ring wear. I went really round with the roof when I raised it. It's bleeding off compression with a compression tester when testing at pulling rpm. I'm only getting 165psi on a 60cc saw with a 103* roof.
> 
> I have no proof that dynamic compression is higher, but it sure seems to be. The saw is snappy as hell and has the power and revs way beyond what the saw was stock with a muff mod and nearly the same compression.



Raising the roof of the exhaust will lower compression.
Rounded ports arent as efficient as squared off ports (less time/area), yet are necessary for ring longevity in the exhaust port
Too round, and yes, you will lose compression due to the apex of the curve, especially if the curve is well above the side corners.
Its not actually bleeding off, it just does not start compressing the mix untill later in the cycle

Pics of the exhaust port ?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

drf255 said:


> And I took .039 from the SB and have a squish of .020 vs the stock .034.


If you have room to lower more just take another .05 off the base. 0.015 squish will be fine on 60 cc.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> . 0.015 squish will be fine on 60 cc.


Wonder what the compression will jump to with that low clearance


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

Probly 10 psi gain if your lucky


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 15, 2015)

It's good to see so many people taking porting to the next level. You guy rock.


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## drf255 (Sep 15, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Raising the roof of the exhaust will lower compression.
> Rounded ports arent as efficient as squared off ports (less time/area), yet are necessary for ring longevity in the exhaust port
> Too round, and yes, you will lose compression due to the apex of the curve, especially if the curve is well above the side corners.
> Its not actually bleeding off, it just does not start compressing the mix untill later in the cycle
> ...


Yes,

But because of charge viscosity, its starting compression before the piston is fully closing the port roof. Thats my point.

With a peakier roof, its gonna cleave the charge differently. So less at low RPM and faster at high RPM. A perfectly square roof would be more consistent across the RPM range.

I could be way off here.

The flow is doing odd stuff at rpm. You think the intake charge is stopping and starting 15,000 times a minute? Its just flowing with inertia. Same with all the ports. We're just changing the way the flow stream looks.


----------



## wcorey (Sep 15, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Yes,
> 
> But because of charge viscosity, its starting compression before the piston is fully closing the port roof. Thats my point.



Not exactly the same purpose as what you refer to but...
Case in point is the Q port/T port in some McCullochs and Partners, a little notch in the middle of the exhaust roof.
Acts as a compression release at cranking rpm but not much effect at cutting speeds.

I've also heard it said that a flatter exhaust roof will give a noticeably sharper 'bark' to the exhaust note than a more rounded one.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 15, 2015)

drf255 said:


> I could be way off here.


 I dont believe that



drf255 said:


> The flow is doing odd stuff at rpm. You think the intake charge is stopping and starting 15,000 times a minute? Its just flowing with inertia. Same with all the ports. We're just changing the way the flow stream looks.


 I believe its a bit of both. The charge is stopping at the piston as soon as the piston closes the intake, however the charge behind it is still trying to push it through.


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## jmssaws (Sep 15, 2015)

If I can keep or fill the intake to 80 or less I like 118 to 120 on the transfers and with 200 to 215 psi they are incredibly strong, I also advance the ignition farther than I c people posting on here and haven't had one fail yet.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)




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## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

I'm goin to run the saw without changing anything but after that I'm drilling that little 62 jet. Any recommendations there?


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## mdavlee (Sep 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I'm goin to run the saw without changing anything but after that I'm drilling that little 62 jet. Any recommendations there?


Go to .75mm or close. Be right with the biggest jet they make for the WJ-69


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## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

That's what I was lookin for. Thanks


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## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

Epoxy is curing, so no grindin till tomorrow night. I used JB weld, we'll see how it does


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## huskihl (Sep 15, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Epoxy is curing, so no grindin till tomorrow night. I used JB weld, we'll see how it does


Which JB weld? The regular stuff or sumptin fancy? I've used JB to fix eff ups where I ground through. It's still there


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## Deets066 (Sep 15, 2015)

Regular, plain old JB. 

I have fixed where I ground through also. Was yours on the bottom of the intake on an 046?


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## huskihl (Sep 15, 2015)

No. 625/272xp conversion. Got a little close to the impulse passage. But I'm gonna turn down the base on my 7900 and I already lowered the intake. I'm gonna need about 5° worth I'm guessing


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

It might be a little much, I just squared it off where it looked good. I'll get it on the wheel shortly


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## drf255 (Sep 16, 2015)

How do you contour to the cylinder to get a tight fit against the piston skirt?


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## big t double (Sep 16, 2015)

drf255 said:


> How do you contour to the cylinder to get a tight fit against the piston skirt?


It looks like he uses a flyer from one of the craft stores he frequents


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

big t double said:


> It looks like he uses a flyer from one of the craft stores he frequents


Cardboard from the JB Weld package. 
And of course I didn't have it tight enough to the cylinder, so the epoxy run down onto the plateing. So I just ground it off with a burr (carefully) and used an Emory cloth flapper to finish.


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

Too much?


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

drf255 said:


> How do you contour to the cylinder to get a tight fit against the piston skirt?


I have a little room between the epoxy and the piston skirt, I don't want any friction on the epoxy. 
It's not much, but enough


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

Ok, I'm liking this a little better


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## huskihl (Sep 16, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Ok, I'm liking this a little better
> View attachment 447664


Where does your exhaust open? Tldr


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

huskihl said:


> Where does your exhaust open? Tldr


101


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## huskihl (Sep 16, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> 101


So ex duration of 158°, intake 155°ish. Seems kinda popular for 90cc around here. Almost every build thread saw has about 2-5° more ex dur than intake


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

huskihl said:


> So ex duration of 158°, intake 155°ish. Seems kinda popular for 90cc around here. Almost every build thread saw has about 2-5° more ex dur than intake


Not sure how you figure these durations, someone fill me in


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## mdavlee (Sep 16, 2015)

Exhaust you double it and subtract from 360. Intake double it.


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Exhaust you double it and subtract from 360. Intake double it.


Regardless of how much I grind out of it?


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## mdavlee (Sep 16, 2015)

Yes.


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## huskihl (Sep 16, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Exhaust you double it and subtract from 360. Intake double it.


I subtract it from 180, then double it. Works better in my little brain


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## mdavlee (Sep 16, 2015)

huskihl said:


> I subtract it from 180, then double it. Works better in my little brain


That works as well.


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## jmssaws (Sep 16, 2015)

Mine is 78 100 120 and strong. It was 102 and I raised it to 100,wish I would have ran it at 102.


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## blsnelling (Sep 16, 2015)

Did you get cut times before you raised it?


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Did you get cut times before you raised it?


I have videos but did not get times, I'll post em up though. I still have same bar and chain from then


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## blsnelling (Sep 16, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> This was the vid that was messed up above. This is also probably the hardest wood that I have ever cut.



Do you have more of this same log?


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## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Do you have more of this same log?


Saved it just for that reason


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## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2015)

Brad, you've seen the differences in port timing in person.........still telling us that it don't work. Seeing it in a video ain't gonna matter to you.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 16, 2015)

I have never seen anyone take a saw and demonstrate before and after of just intake port timing change. Obviously, my experience has been much different than yours, or I wouldn't build saws the way I do.


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## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2015)

I'm not saying you can't build a good running saw with a long intake duration. You can just build a saw that idles better, uses less fuel and pulls a longer bar better with a shorter intake duration. If I was building a cant racer, I'd drop the intake more.......but that's not a good approach on a real life working saw. At least that has been my experience. I have tried it both ways........many times.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 16, 2015)

It's not just the intake. I use a very different approach concerning compression, exhaust height, blowdown, and intake duration. I've watched more intake bring a saw alive many times. It's the whole package. More intake very well may not work with your build style. There are too many other variables. I also have a different built philosophy and goals for how I want my saws to run. You may well not like what I do, and vice versa. That doesn't mean either one is right or wrong, better or worse. They're just different.

I'm simply challenging people not just to look at it from one perspective. There's more than one way to make it happen.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> It's not just the intake. I use a very different approach concerning compression, exhaust height, blowdown, and intake duration. I've watched more intake bring a saw alive many times. It's the whole package. More intake very well may not work with your build style. There are too many other variables. I also have a different built philosophy and goals for how I want my saws to run. You may well not like what I do, and vice versa. That doesn't mean either one is right or wrong, better or worse. They're just different.
> 
> I'm simply challenging people not just to look at it from one perspective. There's more than one way to make it happen.



You are spot on with that post. More than one way to skin a cat. 

But some things are just the way they are no matter who holds the burr. 

I'll give you an example of what I mean. 

I just did two 385XPs. One belongs to Mike Bridges, one is mine own saw. Mike has been a regular customer of mine.......I've done several saws for him, so I know what he is looking for in a saw. I built Mike's 385 with more intake timing, and a little more exhaust than I did on my saw. I also widened the intake and the exhaust on Mike's saw. On my own saw, I didn't even touch the exhaust or the intake port with a burr. Mike's saw sounds meaner, and it cuts faster in wood up to 20". But when you put a 28" bar on both saws, and bury that bar in solid white oak, my saw will walk off and pull away from Mike's saw. I built both saws, different ways, and tested both saw together over a two week period.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2015)

I love it when we can present differing ideas without anyone getting offended. There are guys out there that read this stuff, and they try things because we say it works. 

BUT!!!!!!

What works for me very well might not work for someone else, so it is very important to have a point/counterpoint discussion. Thanks Brad.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2015)

And don't ever think we don't build turds. We all do........and we will again.


----------



## porsche965 (Sep 16, 2015)

Life is full of turds, what matters is how you make it right and wipe your ass.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

This is some good stuff! 

I will make a few cuts off each log that I posted in the vids, bar and chain hasn't been touched. Here to learn and try new things. Great thing about this is that I can take it away if I don't like it.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 16, 2015)

I will say that, with less intake timing in a ported 046 I did notice less fuel consumption. The 046 with the low intake was very snappy and fast with a 28"


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

OK,

So by raising the intake floor, you increase case pressure but lower volume a bit because overall duration is decreased and you should be getting less case filling because of an earlier closing point. So you'll get a higher pressure but slighter lower volume charge. The opposite with closing later. If engine design allows intake port raising, one can get both increased volume and pressure.

So with a higher pressure but lower volume charge, what do you feel that allows you to do with transfer placement?

If the transfers are tighter, I'm imagining you could keep them lower cause they'll have a lot of velocity and fill quicker. On bigger transfers (quads) it seems that keeping the intake higher wouldn't have the same benefit as with a dual port as they have more total transfer area (tunnel and port) so they need a more volume and lower pressure to do their thing.

Am I off here to suggest that keeping an intake higher for more case compression is more beneficial for dual port than quad port motors?

On a dual port Hybrid (ie 046/044) I'd imagine you'd want the intake lower to compensate for the lower case volume with the bigger transfers.

Am I way off here?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 17, 2015)

You can't put anymore charge in the case when it's full. With a lower you "could" be try to overfill the case and getting spit back, this doesn't hurt anything except fuel consumption. I think I will still fill the case with the higher intake because of widening. 

The transfer height should probably stay where it's at, yes I'm increasing velocity but I don't think it's enough to change transfer height because of it.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

A case fills by vacuum, very much like a 4 stroke car engine intake manifold.

We've all seen the effects of inertia supercharging on a race car with a tunnel ram. 

What I'm saying is that at high RPM, when charge is flowing, you should fill a case more with more duration. But you'll get spitback at the point when the case pressure overcomes the incoming charge pressure. When the air speed and pressure exceeds a certain point, I think you'll get little to no spitback with even very low intakes.

I know there's a equations for max case volume/engine displacement. I remember Treemonkey stating it.

I'm sure there's some volumetric efficiency of case design formulas as well.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 17, 2015)

I like the raised intake on the KS cylinders in the 660. Haven't tried it on a Mahle yet.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

Where does the extra fuel go on a saw with a low intake. is it burned, lost out the exhaust?


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Ok, I'm liking this a little better



That right there is where mine is at .....................
I know running "exotic" fuel changes things slightly, but if yours runs anything like mine does, you might be looking for some 385's at GTG's ............. you know, just give them 385's a little different perspective !


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Am I off here to suggest that keeping an intake higher for more case compression is more beneficial for dual port than quad port motors?







drf255 said:


> Where does the extra fuel go on a saw with a low intake. is it burned, lost out the exhaust?



Lost out the exhaust


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Lost out the exhaust


So how does that occur?

Less case pressure. Mixture adjusted at carb. You get better cylinder filling and exhaust scavenging with a lower intake?

If its leaving the exhaust port, its as unburned charge.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

drf255 said:


> So how does that occur?
> 
> Less case pressure. Mixture adjusted at carb. You get better cylinder filling and exhaust scavenging with a lower intake?
> 
> If its leaving the exhaust port, its as unburned charge.


Unburned out the exhaust is correct

Transferrs push the spent gasses out, they are also pushing out raw fuel and combustible gasses.

More primary compression and less case filling seems to be a great combo for the 90cc dual port Stihls.
It could also be that the additional vacuum signal created in the case by the lower intake helps to fill the case more efficiently


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

Hmmmm.....

So sounding to me like a lower intake fills the case better at high rpm. Would allow a lower upper transfer because will fill faster/better, but low end torque would suffer.

Higher intake, more secondary compression at lower rpm, less at high rpm, higher transfers, worse on the top end.

So maybe this is why 046/044 Hybrids run so well with high transfers. Lower intake, but increased case compression because of a smaller volume at the same time. Bigger transfer tunnels.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Hmmmm.....
> 
> Higher intake, more secondary compression at lower rpm, less at high rpm



Why would there be less secondary compression at higher RPM and more secondary compression at lower RPM ?


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

Earlier Closing Intake. Less Duration.

More pressure at low RPM. At HIGH rpm, less ram effect from charge inertia because less duration in time.

Why do you think a longer intake duration causes more cylinder filling?


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

We are only talking 3-4 psi at most for primary compression.
I dont believe secondary compression is effected to the point that there is less secondary compression at higher RPM.
Sometimes a longer intake will not cause more cylinder filling. There comes a point where its full, and you begin to go backwards if you give more time/area to the intake. 

You can only get in so much mix to the upper cylinder with the transferrs and exhaust open at the same time .............. it just goes out the exhaust if you try to get more in there before the exhaust closes

Let me just state that I am in NO WAY an expert here, and I may very well be wrong. The more that I think that I understand, the more I see that I dont.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

Thoroughly confused am I.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 17, 2015)

Closing point on the intake is what y'all need to be thinking about. You can't transfer what you didn't trap. Over filling the case just makes more spitback, and is why a velocity stack works so well on a race saw.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Closing point on the intake is what y'all need to be thinking about. You can't transfer what you didn't trap. Over filling the case just makes more spitback, and is why a velocity stack works so well on a race saw.


So why does a lower intake cause increased fuel consumption and unburned fuel out of the exhaust?


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 17, 2015)

I can't see it sending any unburned fuel out the exhaust. I can see it wasting fuel due to excessive spitback.

Raising the transfers will send raw gas out the exhaust though. That is one reason newer saws have lower transfer ports.


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 17, 2015)

I've got a cylinder that has had the intake lowered a ton and it will soak everything under the filter cover spitting back not out the exhaust.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

Out the exhaust is tough to measure or see ................
It could be getting increased spitback, but the increased spitback does not account for all of the additional volume of fuel that is used. If it did, there would be lots of fuel dripping from the air filter element.

I went from 82 (stock) on the intake to 77 (ported) and I seem to be using slightly less fuel now than I did before, and the saw turns higher RPM's with more power. I havent seen any spitback yet in eithor case.

Where do you think the extra fuel (when it was stock) went ?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 17, 2015)

Every saw I have ever run has some spit back, my ported 046 with intake at 83 (I think) has by far the most


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

What happens to fuel that's spitback into the intake system?


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 17, 2015)

It doesn't get sucked back in. It just kind of sits there. Pull the air filter off and rev a saw and watch the fuel turn to almost a vapor and go in.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 17, 2015)

So a cloud of vaporized fuel just sits in the bore of the carburetor thats flowing air?

And that small amount of vapor that sits in a 1" carb venturi causes increased fuel consumption?

I dont think my little brain can understand this.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 17, 2015)

drf255 said:


> So a cloud of vaporized fuel just sits in the bore of the carburetor thats flowing air?
> 
> And that small amount of vapor that sits in a 1" carb venturi causes increased fuel consumption?
> 
> I dont think my little brain can understand this.


Spitback will actually throw vaporized fuel out the carb inlet right past the choke if you pull of the air filter on a motor that does it. 
With the air filter installed, there is no flow going out past it, so the lowest part of the air filter will get the wettest as the fuel condenses. The whole filter can get damp, but I havent seen one dripping wet yet. 

Admittantly, I havent ran a ported saw with way too much intake, but I have ran lots of motors that have spitback.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 17, 2015)

drf255 said:


> So a cloud of vaporized fuel just sits in the bore of the carburetor thats flowing air?
> 
> And that small amount of vapor that sits in a 1" carb venturi causes increased fuel consumption?
> 
> I dont think my little brain can understand this.


No it makes droplets that get all the way back to the filter out of the area that the vapor is forming.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 17, 2015)

I just put the 066 back together, I looked at the maxflo and it is pretty wet on the bottom side. We'll see if that changes in the future.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 18, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I just put the 066 back together, I looked at the maxflo and it is pretty wet on the bottom side. We'll see if that changes in the future.


Is this from previously running it stock ?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 18, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Is this from previously running it stock ?


No, ported. The numbers were 101 118 83 or 84


----------



## drf255 (Sep 18, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I just put the 066 back together, I looked at the maxflo and it is pretty wet on the bottom side. We'll see if that changes in the future.


Turn it upside down.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 18, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Turn it upside down.


You can just squeeze out the fuel in the Max Flow and re-oil them


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 18, 2015)

Hmm. just got a box with a non decomp cylinder. Numbers soon.


----------



## srcarr52 (Sep 18, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Hmm. just got a box with a non decomp cylinder. Numbers soon.



Stock non decomp should be:
Squish = 0.030 ish
Ex = 165
Trans = 119
In = 153
Making blowdown 23


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 18, 2015)

Decomp .021"
96
125
79

Non .025"
96
116
80


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 18, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Decomp .021"
> 96
> 125
> 79
> ...


Are you porting both?


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Are you porting both?


Eventually.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 19, 2015)

Ok, got a minute today to run the newly improved 066. I will say that I'm definately happy with it and maybe I can finally quit messin with it and run it! 
I ran it with a 24 and 8 pin with rakers set at -.050, it's definately a beast. I'll get video tomorrow with a 36" bar.


----------



## huskihl (Sep 19, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Ok, got a minute today to run the newly improved 066. I will say that I'm definately happy with it and maybe I can finally quit messin with it and run it!
> I ran it with a 24 and 8 pin with rakers set at -.050, it's definately a beast. I'll get video tomorrow with a 36" bar.


Finally. Somebody else who enjoys a saw that pulls itself through the wood. I thought I was the only one at .040


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 19, 2015)

huskihl said:


> Finally. Somebody else who enjoys a saw that pulls itself through the wood. I thought I was the only one at .040


At -.050 you can stall any saw, regaurdless of displacement. But if you let it cut, you can chew up some wood


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 20, 2015)

Sounds like harvestor chain


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Sounds like harvestor chain


Yup, I used it to harvest some tree's lives


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 20, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Sounds like harvestor chain


.404 RS comes with .045 from the factory 



Deets066 said:


> Ok, got a minute today to run the newly improved 066. I will say that I'm definately happy with it and maybe I can finally quit messin with it and run it!
> I ran it with a 24 and 8 pin with rakers set at -.050, it's definately a beast. I'll get video tomorrow with a 36" bar.


Whats the compression and final numbers at again ?  



huskihl said:


> Finally. Somebody else who enjoys a saw that pulls itself through the wood. I thought I was the only one at .040


I have ran .040 lots of times on .375. The cutters dont last as long as with .030 though 



Deets066 said:


> At -.050 you can stall any saw, regaurdless of displacement. But if you let it cut, you can chew up some wood



.050 aint for boys ....................


----------



## drf255 (Sep 20, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> .404 RS comes with .045 from the factory


Explains alot to me. 

I was able to bog my Masterminded 066 with a 28" .404 buried in Maple. Now I know why.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

I'll get another compression reading today,
Ex. 101
Trans. 118
Intake. 77
Triple port muffler
Timing advanced
Maxflo
Carb shafts and butterflies ground down and tapered.

Next in line is drilling the jet in the carb


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2015)

Does it feel stronger with the intake raised?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Does it feel stronger with the intake raised?


From the few cuts I made with it, I'd say yes it does. 
I'm getting ready to head to the shop and put it in some real wood though


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2015)

More intake seems to make a faster saw, less intake makes a stronger saw. If that makes any sense.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)




----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

This don't do the saw much justice, chain needs touched up


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2015)

I just listen mostly. It's holding RPM real good in the cut with that big bar.


----------



## big t double (Sep 20, 2015)

Glad your gettin all this portin stuff fingered out there deets....save me a ton on shipping cost...get a lathe yet?


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2015)

You bastards are gonna put me outta bidness.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I'll get another compression reading today,
> Ex. 101
> Trans. 118
> Intake. 77
> ...


Allmost the same numbers, except trans ........I am at 122
What RPM is she at WOT unloaded in the video ?
She sounds snappy, like mine !
Them 661r dogs look great !!!


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You bastards are gonna put me outta bidness.



Not in a million years Sir ......................
You and Big Mike are the reason why I did mine in the first place !!


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Allmost the same numbers, except trans ........I am at 122
> What RPM is she at WOT unloaded in the video ?
> She sounds snappy, like mine !


Compression 215 warm
Rpm 14,000 at two full turns out on the H


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 20, 2015)

2 turns ............
Want a .74 jet ?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> 2 turns ............
> Want a .74 jet ?


I think that would help


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just listen mostly. It's holding RPM real good in the cut with that big bar.


Especially with the nose buried


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2015)

Just drill that jet Deets. See what size micro bit fits it now, and go up two numbers.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Mike sujested that too. Sounds like a plan


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 20, 2015)

The original carb on mine tuned around 3 turns on both needles until I drilled it.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Anyone time the videos yet


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

I got 59 seconds before epoxied intake
And 50 seconds after epoxied intake


----------



## Sty57 (Sep 20, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You bastards are gonna put me outta bidness. [emoji23]


You'll have to get more cows[emoji12] 

Thanks, Brian


----------



## huskihl (Sep 20, 2015)

I ain't never seen a 32"? bar buried while noodling. Impressive. You could filled up feed sacks outta the back end of that thing and sold it for dog bedding. Gettin' after it


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 20, 2015)

huskihl said:


> I ain't never seen a 32"? bar buried while noodling. Impressive. You could filled up feed sacks outta the back end of that thing and sold it for dog bedding. Gettin' after it


Here is mine with a 50" noodling ............... I think thats buried, no ?


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

huskihl said:


> I ain't never seen a 32"? bar buried while noodling. Impressive. You could filled up feed sacks outta the back end of that thing and sold it for dog bedding. Gettin' after it


36" bar 

Not sure what kind of wood it is though, not real hard, but it ain't no pine either.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Compression 215 warm
> Rpm 14,000 at two full turns out on the H


It wasn't easy gettin that comp reading either. 

I think if this jug hadn't been straight gassed it would be a tad more, I can feel a few light impressions in the plateing. 

Should I continue to break these rings in on 32:1 Motul or should I use something to "help" the rings seat a little?


----------



## huskihl (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> It wasn't easy gettin that comp reading either.
> 
> I think if this jug hadn't been straight gassed it would be a tad more, I can feel a few light impressions in the plateing.
> 
> Should I continue to break these rings in on 32:1 Motul or should I use something to "help" the rings seat a little?


Popular opinion here has changed over the last few years. Now they're saying doesn't matter if synthetic or non or semi. 
Me? Take it easy and rich for a tank, then run it like I stole it


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> It wasn't easy gettin that comp reading either.
> 
> I think if this jug hadn't been straight gassed it would be a tad more, I can feel a few light impressions in the plateing.
> 
> Should I continue to break these rings in on 32:1 Motul or should I use something to "help" the rings seat a little?


Run it hard and it will seat either way.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 20, 2015)

Only got one thing to say about that 066,

Wholly $hit!

Wholly $hit!

Wholly $hit!

Oops, I said it three times.


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 20, 2015)

Saws like that is what got me into this madness, i don't have to c it just the sound of it and I know it's a beast. Good job.


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 20, 2015)

Also 215 psi is a heck of a number to get, my old saw will read 150 on the first pull but 210 is all I can get before me or the starter fails.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> Also 215 psi is a heck of a number to get, my old saw will read 150 on the first pull but 210 is all I can get before me or the starter fails.


I believe the one mike did for mopar is pushin 225


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I believe the one mike did for mopar is pushin 225


I've done and own a few Husky's i can get close to 220 but I can't keep a stihl starter together long enough to get that high. Advance the ignition the width of the key on saws like these and your average old boy will just have a very soar hand, I'm used to starting these kinda saws and one will still get me now and then. If u want to start them u better put your purse down.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> I've done and own a few Husky's i can get close to 220 but I can't keep a stihl starter together long enough to get that high. Advance the ignition the width of the key on saws like these and your average old boy will just have a very soar hand, I'm used to starting these kinda saws and one will still get me now and then. If u want to start them u better put your purse down.


I don't use compression releases either, just one more thing to fail. 

Good thing about it, my friends can't borrow it if they can't start it.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

You advance timing a whole key!? I usually do 1/3


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I don't use compression releases either, just one more thing to fail.
> 
> Good thing about it, my friends can't borrow it if they can't start it.


 Wasn't talkin bout you Ted! You can borrow it whenever you want. As long as I get to run that piped 066 of yours


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 20, 2015)

066 with 235 is still easier to pull than a 288 with 235 or a 2100 with 190. They feel locked up and it was stock with a base gasket.


----------



## huskihl (Sep 20, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> 066 with 235 is still easier to pull than a 288 with 235 or a 2100 with 190. They feel locked up and it was stock with a base gasket.


Sounds like you oughta borrow @HuskStihl's wife too


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 20, 2015)

One of those 288s is his now[emoji2]


----------



## huskihl (Sep 20, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> One of those 288s is his now[emoji2]


I've been looking for 90cc's. A 288 popped up on cl a month ago. Might jump on the next one. Wanted an 066 but their owners don't wanna part with them.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> 066 with 235 is still easier to pull than a 288 with 235 or a 2100 with 190. They feel locked up and it was stock with a base gasket.


Kinda like an 088 with 190


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

huskihl said:


> I've been looking for 90cc's. A 288 popped up on cl a month ago. Might jump on the next one. Wanted an 066 but their owners don't wanna part with them.


For good reason


----------



## huskihl (Sep 20, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> For good reason


I've got a logger friend with a dozen 385 through 395xp's. All with "logger damage". I could probably get him to come off 1 of them but I'd feel inclined to paint it red. Or at least spray a little white on it.


----------



## Canadian farm boy (Sep 20, 2015)

I've been following this thread since it started. Checking it out several times daily. I've learned a lot. Thanks to all those that have contributed to it. I'd like to say something to Deets066, that 066 is awesome. You did an amazing job on it and thank you for showing the "finished" product. Makes me want to get my 066 out and play again but after seeing how yours runs I'm afraid I'd have to start messing with mine again. 
There are so many threads similar to this that the "finished" product is never shown. Thank you for showing your results. Again awesome job on that saw.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 20, 2015)

Canadian farm boy said:


> I've been following this thread since it started. Checking it out several times daily. I've learned a lot. Thanks to all those that have contributed to it. I'd like to say something to Deets066, that 066 is awesome. You did an amazing job on it and thank you for showing the "finished" product. Makes me want to get my 066 out and play again but after seeing how yours runs I'm afraid I'd have to start messing with mine again.
> There are so many threads similar to this that the "finished" product is never shown. Thank you for showing your results. Again awesome job on that saw.


Thanks, there's a lot of good info in this thread and I've learned a ton about the 066. If you've got some patients and time it ain't to bad to make a runner out of an 066. Lots of good people on here willing to help, that's a good part of the reason my saw runs the way it does.


----------



## drf255 (Sep 21, 2015)

So is there any instance where you'd want or accept LESS cranking compression?

I guess it's a trade off between time/area and case compression. Seem like you'd always want the most case compression possible provided it didn't restrict overall intake duration and flow.

Second question. More case compression should make the existing transfers flow faster. So to would you run LOWER upper transfers (higher numerically) if you had better case compression? I see that they'd fill the combustion chamber faster, so they'd need less time to do so. 

All theories go out the window if they don't work in real life though. That 066 is mean, mean, mean.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I believe the one mike did for mopar is pushin 225


Just a little higher ..............
She is just barely over 230 hot



Deets066 said:


> I don't use compression releases either, just one more thing to fail.
> 
> Good thing about it, my friends can't borrow it if they can't start it.


Aint that the truth !!!!


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 21, 2015)

drf255 said:


> So is there any instance where you'd want or accept LESS cranking compression?



YES ............... Freak isnt built for speed, she was constructed for torque.
She has too much compression for a GTG cookie cutter, as most builders have seen, higher RPM saws need less secondary compression to run real fast.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> I've done and own a few Husky's i can get close to 220 but I can't keep a stihl starter together long enough to get that high.



I found out the hard way, aftermarket starters do not last with high compression, they MUST be genuine Stihl. 
I broke a couple Elastogrips, then went to the "D" handle and havent had any problems


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

drf255 said:


> So is there any instance where you'd want or accept LESS cranking compression?
> 
> I guess it's a trade off between time/area and case compression. Seem like you'd always want the most case compression possible provided it didn't restrict overall intake duration and flow.
> 
> ...


Velocity should directly effect transfer height but it's something haven't messed with enough to know which would be best. I'd like to get my 066 right alongside Mopar's and do some


----------



## drf255 (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Velocity should directly effect transfer height but it's something haven't messed with enough to know which would be best. I'd like to get my 066 right alongside Mopar's and do some


A Dyno at each GTG would really put us all closer together.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Velocity should directly effect transfer height but it's something haven't messed with enough to know which would be best. I'd like to get my 066 right alongside Mopar's and do some


We have 2 very similar ported saws ................ mine having more compression and a different transferr number. My other one (in progress) will have its compression closer to yours with the same numbers I have now. It will be easy for me to see which one of my two is best with a 36" and .404 setup ........................... but I also want to get our saws in the same wood.

Its tough for me to go anywhere except work and home, 4 kids (little one aint even 2 yet) and still building the house ...................
I might have to consider sending one or both back to mdavlee (if he says its OK) to run if you and he are at the same GTG.

One day Deets ................ one day !!


----------



## big t double (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Wasn't talkin bout you Ted! You can borrow it whenever you want. As long as I get to run that piped 066 of yours


Sh!t I doubt I could pull that thing over. I would like to run it after you start it for me though.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 21, 2015)

I'm sure if you guys didn't mind the shipping I could find a piece of wood to run them with 34-50" bars in. Might be able to work this out later this fall. 

I think in small wood the lower compression more free spinning saw would win. In bigger wood compression seems to be king.


----------



## srcarr52 (Sep 21, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> I'm sure if you guys didn't mind the shipping I could find a piece of wood to run them with 34-50" bars in. Might be able to work this out later this fall.
> 
> I think in small wood the lower compression more free spinning saw would win. In bigger wood compression seems to be king.



Compression is grunt power.

Don't pull lightly on this starter rope, 32" of full comp furry.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> Compression is grunt power.
> 
> Don't pull lightly on this starter rope, 32" of full comp furry.



Do you recall the numbers you used? (Openings, not durations)


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> You advance timing a whole key!? I usually do 1/3


1/3 of the key is leaving power on the table. I've messed with timing a lot and found especially on a aluminum flywheel saw that the farther u go the more it likes it, my 64 is just a dab farther than the key. A 660 I don't go that far, more like 7/8 of the key. A saw I build for a customer I don't advance it that far although I don't know why I've never cn a problem with it. I had a 288 that was 200psi and it was hard to start my 084 is around 190 and it's very hard to start but they all fail in comparison to my old 5200 poulan, i would love to know how much compression it has but the starters are junk, it had monster compression stock but after machine work it's almost unstartable, it will start the first pull but however long u run it you will b doing it with the pull rope hanging out. I have never handed my 084 to anybody that could start it, even after I tell them, it will violently remove the handle from there hand.


----------



## srcarr52 (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Do you recall the numbers you used? (Openings, not durations)



I think in duration.
Ex. 162
Tran. 115
In. 159

In openings:
99
122.5
79.5


----------



## srcarr52 (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> 1/3 of the key is leaving power on the table. I've messed with timing a lot and found especially on a aluminum flywheel saw that the farther u go the more it likes it, my 64 is just a dab farther than the key. A 660 I don't go that far, more like 7/8 of the key. A saw I build for a customer I don't advance it that far although I don't know why I've never cn a problem with it. I had a 288 that was 200psi and it was hard to start my 084 is around 190 and it's very hard to start but they all fail in comparison to my old 5200 poulan, i would love to know how much compression it has but the starters are junk, it had monster compression stock but after machine work it's almost unstartable, it will start the first pull but however long u run it you will b doing it with the pull rope hanging out. I have never handed my 084 to anybody that could start it, even after I tell them, it will violently remove the handle from there hand.



The 066 in the previous video was 1/3 keyway and pulling the rope out of your hands. I had to put it back to stock.


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

I like the part about the violence and the removal of the starter from their hand. 

Funny stuff and I may use that

I have gone as far as half the key but that's about all. I may try a little more without the key in place and see how it does


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> I think in duration.
> Ex. 162
> Tran. 115
> In. 159
> ...


Were you able to get those numbers without epoxy in the intake?


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

I like the old small solid handles that came on the 064 066 I'll never have one ripped from my hand but a big elastic job like on these new saws occasionally will get me. Advancing the ignition is a huge gain, take a stock saw and only advance it, there's a huge difference. 372xp is the only saw I've cn that don't like it


----------



## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> I like the old small solid handles that came on the 064 066 I'll never have one ripped from my hand but a big elastic job like on these new saws occasionally will get me. Advancing the ignition is a huge gain, take a stock saw and only advance it, there's a huge difference. 372xp is the only saw I've cn that don't like it


I may go with a D handle when this elasto start takes a chit. And I'm guessing that won't take long.


----------



## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I like the part about the violence and the removal of the starter from their hand.
> 
> Funny stuff and I may use that
> 
> I have gone as far as half the key but that's about all. I may try a little more without the key in place and see how it does


I really enjoy walking over to the kull pile with all my buddy's to have a race and hand one of them my 64 or 395 and watch them try to start it most of the time they never move the handle a inch, then they look at it confused and proceed to fail again, I laugh, grab my saw and start it and get all there money. Us timber men are a proud hard headed group sometimes I have to get most of there paycheck before they are convinced that there saw isn't the fastest.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> 1/3 of the key is leaving power on the table. I've messed with timing a lot and found especially on a aluminum flywheel saw that the farther u go the more it likes it, my 64 is just a dab farther than the key. A 660 I don't go that far, more like 7/8 of the key. A saw I build for a customer I don't advance it that far although I don't know why I've never cn a problem with it. I had a 288 that was 200psi and it was hard to start my 084 is around 190 and it's very hard to start but they all fail in comparison to my old 5200 poulan, i would love to know how much compression it has but the starters are junk, it had monster compression stock but after machine work it's almost unstartable, it will start the first pull but however long u run it you will b doing it with the pull rope hanging out. I have never handed my 084 to anybody that could start it, even after I tell them, it will violently remove the handle from there hand.


You're talking about 20°-30° of timing advance. In my experience, that's enough to make a saw not run at all. For example, when putting a 272 coil on a Dolmar 7900/7910, the timing is off by 20°. The saw will not run at all until that is corrected.


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## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

I cut some firewood today and my hybrid was faster through a 32" oak than my 036 was in 12" oak. 
Blew my mind


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> You're talking about 20°-30° of timing advance. In my experience, that's enough to make a saw not run at all. For example, when putting a 272 coil on a Dolmar 7900/7910, the timing is off by 20°. The saw will not run at all until that is corrected.


It runs just fine, u got a 64 advance it the width of the key and try it


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

With 24" bars my 371xp is the fastest saw I have, with 8 pin sprockets. I need some 9 and 10 pins to get to the power on the bigger saws.


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## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> With 24" bars my 371xp is the fastest saw I have, with 8 pin sprockets. I need some 9 and 10 pins to get to the power on the bigger saws.


Just cut the rakers down to -.050 on them bigger saws. You don't need a 9


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Compression loves more timing. The more of one then the more of the other.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Just cut the rakers down to -.050 on them bigger saws. You don't need a 9


Definitely. I run a hungry chain but cutting down 050 is a tad much. I'll reword, with a work chain my 371xp is faster but now that I think I bet my 046 is. How many times have u forgot that u own a saw or ? I have a 046 and 460 that are pretty sporty


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## blsnelling (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> Compression loves more timing. The more of one then the more of the other.


I thought it was the other way around.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Run as much compression and timing as u can right up to detonating. That's why there's 116 octane race fuel.


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## blsnelling (Sep 21, 2015)

Higher compression requires less ignition timing as a rule.


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## drf255 (Sep 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I thought it was the other way around.





blsnelling said:


> Higher compression requires less ignition timing as a rule.


Pretty much common knowledge.

Advancing timing makes up for low compression in some ways. You get expansion of fuel mix a bit before TDC.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Yes to keep from detonating that's it. My entire family build drag cars the only time u run less ignition is boosted or nos setups. If anybody has a vehicle with a distributer still go push the timing back and c if it runs better, there would b no need for high octane fuel if it was the other way around.


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## blsnelling (Sep 21, 2015)

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

When a big compression race car is knocking the tires off u take power away by removing timing.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php


U got a 64 try it


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## blsnelling (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> Compression loves more timing. The more of one then the more of the other.


This is simply not true. In fact, the opposite is true. The higher the compression, the less advance you can run, or need to run.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> This is simply not true. In fact, the opposite is true. The higher the compression, the less advance you can run, or need to run.


I'm not saying u can advance it 3 inches but u can the width if the key. My 64 has to key ways increase the flywheel I've had it in the other one by accident and it still ran not very well but it did. Compression and timing are limited to detonating that's it. On 93 octane gas a 14:1 motor has to run less timing than a 10:1 motor u are correct but only because of detonation. Now what that has to do with a chainsaw I don't know.


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## srcarr52 (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Were you able to get those numbers without epoxy in the intake?



It was the old flat top, non decomp 066 cylinder, the port timing numbers where much better to start with than the new 660 cylinders. That's basically leaving the intake timing alone with cutting 0.030" out of the squish band.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Why would anybody run alcohol maybe so they can have more compression and timing? Obviously I'm not saying u can advance forever but the reason u remove timing from high compression is fuel limiting that's it. That's why a alcohol car is 16:1 and a gas one isnt.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

srcarr52 said:


> It was the old flat top, non decomp 066 cylinder, the port timing numbers where much better to start with than the new 660 cylinders. That's basically leaving the intake timing alone with cutting 0.030" out of the squish band.


Mine is a red light cylinder and I can't remember how much it's lowered but it enough that I had to do some work to the plastic to get the sparkplug out and the intake was still barely in the 70's. I think it's 76 now. A 660 cylinder would b in the high 80's.


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## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> Mine is a red light cylinder and I can't remember how much it's lowered but it enough that I had to do some work to the plastic to get the sparkplug out and the intake was still barely in the 70's. I think it's 76 now. A 660 cylinder would b in the high 80's.


I believe I lowered mine .072


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I believe I lowered mine .072


Wow I've never tied it that low, seems to work! My new favorite for a beast is a 394 and it's basically a stihl only with way better numbers, I think it's around 77 and it's bn lowered enough that I had to make a new hole for the decomp. Think I'll break out the jb weld after while!


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## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

Not many Pistons will allow that much but luckily this one did, I actually have a little room left


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Not many Pistons will allow that much but luckily this one did, I actually have a little room left


Yeh I can't lower mine anymore. I got lots of piston left on the 394 though. After machine work the exhaust was 109 wish them stihls had that problem.


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

I'm finally getting a flat top 66 there a very rare item around here, it's costing me a 660 but I've got several. It was seized basically brand new and has bn in a box for 20 years. He thinks he's got me over a barrel but honestly I'd trade 2 660's for it there a dime a dozen around here


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## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

066/660 is the only one I know of that has a hard time gettin ex. Low enough.


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## Deets066 (Sep 21, 2015)

jmssaws said:


> I'm finally getting a flat top 66 there a very rare item around here, it's costing me a 660 but I've got several. It was seized basically brand new and has bn in a box for 20 years. He thinks he's got me over a barrel but honestly I'd trade 2 660's for it there a dime a dozen around here


Yeah, it wouldn't take much to get my 660 out from under me


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> 066/660 is the only one I know of that has a hard time gettin ex. Low enough.


Yep every other saw u gotta raise it. I don't even touch the exhaust or intake on a 660 anymore unless it's for someone i don't know, I don't want them to take it apart and c nothing. I don't widen or ruff up or polish just raise the transfers and clip the lip on the lowers and add bridge ports. Can't tell a bit of difference either


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## jmssaws (Sep 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Yeah, it wouldn't take much to get my 660 out from under me


They don't mean anything to me hell everybody has 4 or 5 of them, now a flat top on the other hand.


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## jmssaws (Sep 23, 2015)

I just found out that u can't work 7 days a week 16 hrs a day forever. Woke up in the hospital this morning , pneumonia and exhaustion caught up to me. So u guys building saws that are behind and under the gun tell them people they are gonna have to wait and take a day off and spend some time with your family or you will wake up in the hospital also.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2015)

I just do the best I can. I get behind........then I catch up. People normally understand. I never shy away from communication.


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## jmssaws (Sep 23, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just do the best I can. I get behind........then I catch up. People normally understand. I never shy away from communication.


I in no way have the amount of work u have but it can still become overwhelming.


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## jmssaws (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm headed to the house now to box and ship saws. I'm a rest when I'm done kinda guy. Shipping seems to b the worst part of it for me, I need to get a better way of handling that.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2015)

We (Jon & I) have land to take care of, cattle to see about, wood to cut, hay to bale, neighbors to look after, saws to build, etc, etc, etc........


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## jmssaws (Sep 23, 2015)

I also have almost 100 cows and 714 acres and a regular job. It's busy to say the least. I could use me one of them jon's.


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