# Man Suffocates after dead palm fronds slide down over him. Cali, 8/03



## FSburt

*Man Suffocates after dead palm fronds slide down over him.*

Was reading the paper yester day and here is this article about a climber getting pinned against the stem by 800 pounds of dry fronds. Sound like he was up 45 ft and was trimming from the bottom and the vibrations caused the fronds to slide down the stem like a donut down a shaft. He was pinned between the stem and the branches. This happened around 3 pm. Firefighters were dispatched a 3:14 pm. A fire truck arrived at 3:46 pm but could not retyieve him with a the ladder becaouse it was deemed inappropiate for the task. At 4 pm a Climber from Visalia arived and made the body recovery in about 5 minutes. Sounds like this is not the first time this has happened around here Batt cheif made comment about 10 12 other incidents in Tulare, Fresno and Kings counties. I have never worked on palms but souds like they are pretty sketchy. Unfortunate the deceses was 31 yrs old.


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## FSburt

Sorry about the misspelled words forgot to preview 1st.


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## FSburt

This thread is not about bashing fireman but how unfortunate that some of this type of stuff is not preplanned beforehand about having a treeclimber on call when ever there is a tree rescue. Don't now if it would have saved this fellow unless his groundman could have climbed but he was alive for aliitle while after because he yelled to his cousin on the gound that he was going to die becuase he could'nt breathe. Also one fire truck had a 75 ft ladder but could not find a tree climber for the rescue. I guess the fireman did not feel comfortable goinup that high on a ladder. Anybody ever have this happen to them on a smaller scale though.


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## NeTree

I've never worked a palm tree. Could someone explain to me the mechanics of how/what and why this happened? I'm sorry, but I don't quite get it. 

Condolensces to the climbers' family.


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## Stumper

The Fla guys like Brian and Spydy etc. have probably worked a LOT more palms than I but to answer your question. Palms are monocots. All growth originates at a single terminal bud ( which happens to be good to eat-at least in some species -tastes like a sort of nutty cabbage). Many live fronds persist at the same time but they are constantly dying and being replaced as the Palm grows. The dead ones are aranged in whorls around the trunk. Their bases interlock to form a sort of collar around the trunk itself. Ungroomed palms are incredibly trashy. The dead fronds cover the trunk in a thick nasty thatch. They do eventually come off but it takes awhile-the bases have to break down to a point where they come loose. In order to make things look neat the dead fronds are periodically trimmed off and the bases "peeled". If a significant time has elapsed since the last trim the old dead fronds up on the trunk may be ready to come loose. if the bases below them have been peeled previously the whole mass may slide down the trunk like a big spiked collar. I hate messing with palms!


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## Tom Dunlap

My Dad worked for the city of Phoenix street department. When the crew would go out to skin palms, they would empty a giant fire extinguisher into the palms to kill the nasties, spiders, rats, scorpions. 

Tom


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## NeTree

The replies tell me one thing...
This site continues to be a great source of education.

Sounds like something you can't see coming until it's too late.


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## dbeck

climber on call w/ fire dept. for aerial rescues.

The idea sounds great, but exactly how feasible is it? Could a climber be able to report as quickly as the rescue crew? What if the climber was climbinga tree two towns away?
I don't know if this means anything to you folks, but I just can't see myself being in that position (on Call). Too many things to go wrong, not to mention possible liabilities.
I think it would be great to offer my services if needed, just think efficiency would be an issue.


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## Greg

I have done a lot of palm trimming, and this seems very weird. To me it sounds like he was down below the skirt of the old dead palm fronds that must have been too thick to climb underneath (the small space between the hanging fronds and the palm trunk is an errie place -dark, many bugs & critters) so I wonder if he had a pole saw and just started cutting them loose expecting them to drop over his head, but instead a large mass of them came down between his lanyard and the trunk. Probably so thick he couldn't even see his feet?? I bet he was on spikes, I would have prefered to gaff out and slide down the trunk rather than stay pinned in.... Poor guy wish we knew more.
Greg


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## monkeypuzzle

800lbs. of fronds???? Dead and dry, it would take a lot. Not much weight to a dry frond.


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## Treeman14

It was probably a Washingtonia robusta or Phoenix canariensis, here are some links for pictures:

http://www.plantapalm.com/vpe/photos/Species/washingtonia_robusta.htm

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/Syllabus2/wrobusta.htm

http://www.hortpix.com/pc3167.htm

http://plantsdatabase.com/go/51657/

Sounds like the palm he was working on was seriously neglected. I pruned a neglected sabal palmetto once that filled the chip truck with mulch, easily several TONS from one palm. Fortunately, there was a tall cypress nearby and I could attack it from the top down.


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## dbeck

I get your drift brian, makes good sense to me.


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## DadF

Brian,
If your fire dept is open minded about using outside "experts" then I hope that you are called. I have been a firefighter for over 20 years and have that some fire depts are very hardnosed about admitting that there are other ways of accomplishing a goal. If the officers realize that there just may be other people more able and trained to do the job then there is more of a chance of a "mutual aid" agreement with outside resources. Unfortunately this never seems to happen until dire consequences have occurred. I have about given up trying to get the military surplus (it was old when I started ) rope replaced that is supposedly for rope rescue on our rescue truck"because we haven't needed it yet so why replace it" mentality that the officers on my department display. I have been trying for years to get all of our rope and hardware replaced but to no avail. Now with that attitude do you think that I would have any luck with trying to convince them that the rope and hardware shouldn't be used? No need to even answer that question.
What I'm trying to point out is that a good working relationship with your local department is a must. You should find out when they are doing their rope training and offer to join in. That is the only way that a fire dept is going to feel comfortable with calling for help. They want to know firsthand what they are getting.


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## murphy4trees

Now this is just public brainstorming and I've never even seen anyone (besides a barefoot Jamaican) climb a palm tree.. and it seems to me that if I was on the ground, I'd fell the tree rather than wait as the climber was smotherred to death and the fire department just stood around and watched.
I wonder if some safety protocol to that effect could be studied and taught if proven effective...
Depending on how high the climber is and how soft the tree can be felled, as long as the climber doesn't end up under the tree, it seems he'd get a little or maybe even a lot banged up, and that's a whole lot better than getting dead.
The tree could also be felled on a house or a car (truck or chipper)or anything to keep it off the ground and soften the landing.


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## murphy4trees

In rethinking the above scenario..
The climber managed to announce he was getting suffocated...
So the ground person had been informed. A quick rescue would have made the difference between life and death. How long did the climber have??? How many minutes...5?,10?, 15?, I would guess on the outside maybe 20, but probably more like 10.
So what were his chances of waiting for responce and rescue by FD??? Close to 0% I would guess...
What would his chances of survival have been if the groundperson had immediately felled the tree... Close to 100% if I was running the saw, I would guess. I would have cut high with a 90*+ notch and aimed for a raised object even if I had to pull the truck up as a target.. Those 800lbs of fronds would have to provide some cushion/breakfall. Climber might have even walked away with nothing more than scratches.... Lot easier to replace a tree, truck or roof than a life... 
So how often does this happen and how often do such incidents result in death. Tim Walsh might be able to give us some insight as he has a report on arboricultural fatalities over an 8 year period... 
AS you might be able to tell, something here has got me going... I smell life and think of a man going home to his family for dinner rather than the family going to his funeral.


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## NeTree

For what it's worth Murph, that sounds quite logical to me.
Dial 911, apprise them of the situation, and then Do what you have to DO to get him out/down.

At the very least, if he was injured from the fall, the medics would have already been on their way.


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## murphy4trees

In re-reading the given info I notced the climber was supposed to have been up at about 45'..... Now that's up there for riding a felling tree.... How tall do palms usually get???? 
Might have to lean it into the back of the truck, then pull foward to slowly bring it over... In any case if you could keep the tree and man from hitting the ground, the flex of the wood would provide some shock absorbtion. I imagine there would however be a sewrious potential of breaking the climbers back.


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## Stumper

Hmmm..... I tried to put myself in this situation. If someone hollers that they are suffocating I tend to assume it is psychological-if they can yell they are breathing. Having felled a few palms I would not try to let anyone ride one down. They are terribly heavy and have little wind resistance. Not being normal wood making a 'slow hinge' is too unreliable (for me anyway). I wasn't there so don't know what I would have done but I don't think I would have felled the tree.


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## rumination

here's a little article from the Principes Journal of the Palm Society Vol.2, No.2 April 1958

PALM FRONDS SUFFOCATE MAN

Los Angeles, Dec. 10 - A man trimming a palm tree in a cemetery was suffocated when a mass of palm fronds slipped down the trunk of the tree and completely enveloped him.
The body of Melchor Vargas, 30, was found yesterday 40 feet up the tree under a huge circle of fronds that had been loosened by his trimming and had slipped down some six feet.
Vargas, father of six children, was still fastened in his safety belt. Investigators said the fronds, weighing several hundred pounds, had pinioned his arms. He apparently had been dead for several hours.


my guess is that the palm was a Washinigtonia, apparently this has happened before. not a pleasant way to go.


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## treeman82

I think Spencer came up with a fairly easy way to be "tied in" to a palm tree. I know that spikes on a pruning job isn't exactly the right thing to do. However I am pretty sure it is allowed in an aerial rescue. I have no experience with palms, but I think if I was on the ground and saw that happening, I would have called 911, then strapped on a cheap saddle and some spikes with a good hand saw and hauled ass up there to cut those fronds off the guy. Going straight up a pole on spikes really isn't a horribly difficult skill to master.


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## MasterBlaster

I just saw on the NBC news another climber that was almost crushed by palm fronds. Firefighters rescued him in time.


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## NeTree

> _Originally posted by treeman82 _
> * However I am pretty sure it is allowed in an aerial rescue. *




In a rescue situation, anything goes. Priority shifts from the tree to the person in trouble. Noone with half a brain would ever crap on you for spiking in a rescue.




> *
> I have no experience with palms, but I think if I was on the ground and saw that happening, I would have called 911, then strapped on a cheap saddle and some spikes with a good hand saw and hauled ass up there to cut those fronds off the guy. Going straight up a pole on spikes really isn't a horribly difficult skill to master. *




Tough call without having been there at the time. No doubt this question has run thru that groundie's mind ever since- if there was something he could have done and didn't. 

In your case, you have climbing experience. I would imagine his groundie didn't, and would have been more likely to just add another person to rescue. 

Who knows?


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## Koa Man

It is difficult to cut thorough palm fronds rapidly, especially dried ones, with a handsaw. Even if you were using a new Silky. That is why we use cane knives....10 times faster. Dried fronds would be the only ones to have slid down like that. The news article said several hundred pounds of fronds slid down. That poor climber probably died within 5 minutes of it happening. I doubt that I would have been able to save him even if I already had my climbing gear on.


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## CaveSaw

*Palm tree death incidents*

I'm trying to write an article about this for a journal. I'd like to summarize as many cases as possible. Google came up with a number of newspaper articles. Talking to the coroners in two counties around here their respone was along the lines of "Happens all the time." If anyone can point me towards other cases I would appreciate it.

And there was a comment above about climbing to rescue someone if this happened. Remember that the problem is the mass of interwoven palm fronds sliding down as a mass once their support is cut underneath. If you climb up and rescue someone, the mass is still there and can still slide. Don't be the next victim.

Roger

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/04/11/20090411palmdeath0412.html

http://www.fresnobee.com/406/story/1550500.html

http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/44103747.html


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## treemandan

Tom Dunlap said:


> My Dad worked for the city of Phoenix street department. When the crew would go out to skin palms, they would empty a giant fire extinguisher into the palms to kill the nasties, spiders, rats, scorpions.
> 
> Tom



Sounds bad either way.


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## treemandan

If ever there was a job that called for that little rope saw thingy I think this would be it. I think that is how the hell I would do the dam job. It even sounds like you might as well just leave the bucket at the yard too unless you are going up there cause I will be down on the ground with my string saw thingy ready to run.


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## BlueRidgeMark

Way to revive that 5 year old thread, people!


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## Taxmantoo

Not to be unkind to the FD, but it sounds like there was 45 minutes of ####ing around before anybody even tried to call the climber who did the retrieval. 

This is me thinking out loud with no commercial or climbing experience, but I think it applies to all aerial work, not just palms:

Are you the only climber on your crew?
Do you know the other climbers in the area?
Does your groundie have all their cell phone numbers handy in case something happens to you up there and you can't climb down? 
If I were a climber trapped in palm fronds, or trying to tourniquet my leg with my lanyard because I just cut myself badly and I can't come down without outside help, I'd want another climber coming to rig me down. Have the groundies call 911 and some climbers. If climbers and FD respond, maybe the person most suited for the job will be on hand in minutes, not after an hour.


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## trimmmed

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Way to revive that 5 year old thread, people!



It makes sense when you look at the reviver's reason.......i.e. writing an article. Regardless, 2 things are clear
1) there are some interesting thoughts about getting the guy down
2) 5 years later, it's still a lousy way to go and some guys might be cutting palms now that weren't then and maybe they never knew of the risk.


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## outofmytree

This was undoubtedly a Washingtonia, probably a robusta. They can and do, collect well over 500kg ( 1100lb ) of dead fronds if left untouched for a few years. Yes they are dangerous and yes you should prune them from the top down not the bottom up.

As to how you would rescue a climber who was pinnned by hundreds of pounds of dead fronds? Murphy has it. Scarf the damn thing as soon as possible. Current research shows us that suspension trauma is likely after only 5 minutes and that does not include extra pressure applied by a large mass above the climber. I usually climb our washie' prunes or removals and if I was stuck under that sort of load I would absolutely prefer to take my chances with felling injury rather than the certain slow suffocation of pressure induced death.


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## CaveSaw

*Trimming Washingtonia*

I'm just a homeowner who likes saws. This palm tree thing is an academic interest of mine, related to the suspension trauma mentioned above. Seems obvious (now, not a week ago) that using a lift to trim these from above is the way to go. Are there alternatives that are safe? I gather from the accident reports I read in the news that the people who died just climbed up the trunk then couldn't release their ropes/equipment once the ring of fronds came down, either because they'd been knocked unconscious or there was just too much force bearing down on them. This is an issue of having to unweight the equipment to have it let go? Any insights appreciated.

Roger


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## masiman

CaveSaw said:


> I'm just a homeowner who likes saws. This palm tree thing is an academic interest of mine, related to the suspension trauma mentioned above. Seems obvious (now, not a week ago) that using a lift to trim these from above is the way to go. Are there alternatives that are safe? I gather from the accident reports I read in the news that the people who died just climbed up the trunk then couldn't release their ropes/equipment once the ring of fronds came down, either because they'd been knocked unconscious or there was just too much force bearing down on them. This is an issue of having to unweight the equipment to have it let go? Any insights appreciated.
> 
> Roger



You might be able to work the safety part of the snaps, but I am pretty sure I would not be able to hip thrust a 1/2 ton to get slack in my lanyard to unclip the lanyard. I imagine if they do not gaff out that the weight would simply collapse them to crouch position. The lanyard might create an indent in the palm that would make it harder for the it to slide down. If the lanyard did slide, I imagine you would gaff out, slide butt first down the stem until you hit bottom or your body and gear creates a wedge that prevents the mass from sliding further. Either you are keeping 500+ pounds from falling or you are semi-free falling underneath it. If you are holding it up and you can somehow get yourself unhooked, you are now in free fall situation unless you have a separate tie-in. If you don't have that tie-in, I don't imagine you would have much time to get one in if you could. Either way, I can't imagine many good chances of survival unless the descent is slowed enough until you hit the ground and can be extracted.


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## senones

I am a Commercial Arborist in South Florida (Broward County) and trimming Palms is probably a good majority of our business. I have heard of this happening before. I do have to agree that it was probably a Washingtonia filifera (spp.?), which are massive trees. Tall and fat. They can get skirted, or hold on to dead, dry fronds, from crown to ground. Who knows if this palm has ever been pruned. I can believe that a 70' Palm with a full "beard" could have hundreds of pounds of frolnds on it. I do know that ANSI A300 Standards advise us to prune skirted palms like that from the top down. Bruce Smith who is an excellent Arborist/ educator with North American Training Solutions has a lot of input on this topic, as he is on the ANSI commitee. They advise us to set a climbing line with maybe a Black Widow micro bull line, ascending the palm either foot lock or body thrust and pruning from the crown down to the end of the skirt. I used to find it hard to believe these stories also, but have come to believe that they are true. We don't get a lot of filifera here, mostly robusta, but I do believe that the Desert Fan Palm are capable of smothering someone. Basically pruning palms is no fun, a mindless task, but it is a necessary evil for those of us living in the sub tropics. As far as the rescue, it is a shame there was nobody on his crew capable of performing an aerial rescue. I sure hope my guys would come rescue my ass.


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## masiman

senones said:


> ...They advise us to set a climbing line with maybe a Black Widow micro bull line, ascending the palm either foot lock or body thrust and pruning from the crown down to the end of the skirt. I used to find it hard to believe these stories also, but have come to believe that they are true. We don't get a lot of filifera here, mostly robusta, but I do believe that the Desert Fan Palm are capable of smothering someone. Basically pruning palms is no fun, a mindless task, but it is a necessary evil for those of us living in the sub tropics. As far as the rescue, it is a shame there was nobody on his crew capable of performing an aerial rescue. I sure hope my guys would come rescue my ass.



What do you set the line to on the palms? Are the "crotches" of the secure enough to climb on? I am not sure if they even calls those joints crotches. With the crushing suffocating, I imagine your first priority would be to get the weight off them?


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## CaveSaw

*Palms*

Sounds like I need to order the ANSI pruning standards tonight.


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## outofmytree

Check out the photo's I posted here and read the explanation on technique. If this isn't clear enough let me know and I will post a step by step with pictures.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1600046&postcount=11


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## masiman

outofmytree said:


> Check out the photo's I posted here and read the explanation on technique. If this isn't clear enough let me know and I will post a step by step with pictures.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1600046&postcount=11



:yourock:

That entire thread is good stuff.


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## CaveSaw

outofmytree said:


> Check out the photo's I posted here and read the explanation on technique. If this isn't clear enough let me know and I will post a step by step with pictures.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1600046&postcount=11



Thanks! That helps.


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## VL07

I live in the florida keys, and i use an adjustable false crotch, and Ddrt the up. I also use a big shot to get my throw line over the top. Use the same tenq. on Royal palms, (seed pods are a hazard in public areas) that no one can get to with a lift.


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## CaveSaw

*SRT in Palms*



VL07 said:


> I live in the florida keys, and i use an adjustable false crotch, and Ddrt the up. I also use a big shot to get my throw line over the top. Use the same tenq. on Royal palms, (seed pods are a hazard in public areas) that no one can get to with a lift.



So I'm learning as I go here. I have a pretty strong background in SRT from caving/SAR but I am having to learn new terms for arborist activities. If I understand correctly you're putting a line over the tree, anchoring an end of it then climbing the other to reach the top. Once there you establish another anchor (a false crotch) from which to work to get the job done. You may have a doubled rope from that ancher/false crotch for going up and down as you work. Once you're done, you can derig the false crotch and descend on the original line that you climbed to get up there, then pull that line down. Is that right?


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## VL07

I use a big shot to shoot a throw line over the center of the palm, then pull a bull rope over, then attach an omni swivel block to the bull rope, then attach my climbing line through the swivel block, pull the system up to the center of the palm. Secure to the base of the tree or anouther tree. You now have a Ddrt setup on an adjustable false crotch. You can save steps by going Srt.


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## CaveSaw

*Ropes in Palms*

Got it. That makes sense. Thanks.


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## outofmytree

VL07 said:


> I use a big shot to shoot a throw line over the center of the palm, then pull a bull rope over, then attach an omni swivel block to the bull rope, then attach my climbing line through the swivel block, pull the system up to the center of the palm. Secure to the base of the tree or anouther tree. You now have a Ddrt setup on an adjustable false crotch. You can save steps by going Srt.



Yes thats exactly how I do it. Some folks talk about srt and ascenders but I have no experience there. I have recently switched to a VT and with a groundie tending the slack I can run up the beard of a nasty old Washie much faster than on the English prussik I was using.


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## senones

outofmytree said:


> I have recently switched to a VT and with a groundie tending the slack I can run up the beard of a nasty old Washie much faster than on the English prussik I was using.


 Ever try the shwabisch? I swear by it. it doesn't bind as much as the vt.


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## CaveSaw

*Washingonia bites again?*

Another man dies in a palm tree.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/02/13/state/n142804S44.DTL&tsp=1


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## outofmytree

Sigh. Yes it sounds like a washie skirt collapsing. It also sounds like he was in under with the usual 1 lanyard and spurs kit. My leading hand did his first solo _W.filofera_ yesterday and was surprised at just how easy the skirt fell apart. Had he been underneath, rather than over the top as I described earlier, it may well have been our first inhouse palm rescue.

If this crew had a second competent climber and full kit maybe this would have been a story about a rescue rather than a body retrieval.


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## CaveSaw

*Tree trimmer dies in palm tree*

And again

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/...eath-while-working-in-palm-tree-91289904.html

MESA -- A skirt of dead palm fronds suffocated a landscaper who was working in the the front yard of Mesa home Saturday afternoon.


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## ckliff

So, is there a reasonably safe method for doing palms? Some time I'd like to visit my family in FL and give them a go for myself.


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## CaveSaw

*Trimming Washingtonia*

There are several descriptions further back in this thread. The basic message is to do them from above and not below. The fronds stick at lower levels but get loose above 35' or so. So if you trim from below you can loosen all the underpinnings and then have a mass of loose but interlocked fronds slide down on top of you.


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## outofmytree

ckliff said:


> So, is there a reasonably safe method for doing palms? Some time I'd like to visit my family in FL and give them a go for myself.



Been mega busy so I havent posted for a month or so. This link shows the safest method I know of ascending and cleaning Washingtonia palms. If you want a little detail just drop me PM or email.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tI35IO9gvE


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## ckliff

outofmytree said:


> Been mega busy so I havent posted for a month or so. This link shows the safest method I know of ascending and cleaning Washingtonia palms. If you want a little detail just drop me PM or email.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tI35IO9gvE



Tried to rep ya on that one. Well done vid. Thanks. 

Only criticism I would throw out is the porta-wrap was attached with a carabiner, where I would generally prefer a girth hitch off the anchoring line.
Is that portawrap dedicated for climbing? When I use a pulley for climbing (which I like a lot) I use a rescue 8 for tying down the line.

Those palms must get awfully wobbly & that looked like a breezy day too.

I hope to visit my folks in Florida and if the opportunity comes up I will know to trim palms top to bottom. Thanks again!


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## ntsarborist

*on call*

here is an idea for the fire departments in city's and larger townships. why not have training for aerial rescues in trees. there should be at least 1 member on the fire department trained in climbing. i mean they are normally trained for repelling down buildings and doing window rescues so why not trees also. just a thought.


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