# This old tree



## Jace (Oct 17, 2012)

Can anything be done to help this tree enough to turn it around?
Other than ;
soil analysis and remediation. 
Mulching(tho I would think one would have to have a massive large ring of much to reach out to this tree's roots)
Removing dead
Which....I think these would help, but I really dont think they will help enough...

Deal is, this guy wants me to trim out the dead, but Im trying to decide if he should really even do that, or instead just save that $ and put it towards a removal on about 3 years...Whats your opinion?



Many of the branches dont have adequate lateral branches to take over branch doninance, and those branches in particular will likely just die back as bad if i take the dead off.

Check out the massive wound in the 3rd photo.Ice storm 5 years ago probly was a major "contributor".

Anyway, how exactly would you handle this if it were you?


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## Jace (Oct 17, 2012)

ftr..All these photos were taken just yesterday


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## Raintree (Oct 17, 2012)

Jace, I would first want to establish the structural integrity of this Oak. Apart from loosing major portions of the canopy and the obvious decay at the tear outs. My concern also would be decay from buttress root wounding during construction. This will help determine - removal, promote growth or suppress rate of growth.


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## treemandan (Oct 17, 2012)

The roots are rotten and you can't polish a turd.


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## Jace (Oct 18, 2012)

Raintree said:


> Jace, I would first want to establish the structural integrity of this Oak. Apart from loosing major portions of the canopy and the obvious decay at the tear outs. My concern also would be decay from buttress root wounding during construction. *This will help determine - removal, promote growth or suppress rate of growth*.



Not sure I understand exactly what yur saying in bolded...




Im thinking that a rubber mallot isnt gonna tell me jack, so Im thinking of taking the longest 1/4 bit I can find, and drill thru the trunk and try to measure exactly how much mush is there, and deep the living tissue is.

Looks like shes gonna make quite a bit of farwood...
Im thinking, (especially if the trunk is as poor as I think) Ill just tell him the trimming is a waste of money and just make large wounds that wont callous over, along with poor structure as you mentioned, to just advice him to remove the tree soon, now being a great time because he can save money on not having me haul it away, because someone will come and saw it/remove it for firewood, after I take it down...being this close to winter...


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## Jace (Oct 18, 2012)

I have had multiple jobs lately, that the client is calling me in to take out the entire top of their telephone pole looking post oak trees. The first and 2nd jobs I told'm get someone else. Now Im suppose to look at another one(Ive seen), same deal, about (5) 60' post oaks with small pathetic looking lateral bracnhes all the way up to the top, then they spread. Maybe 16-17" dbh. So I have a question...

Would you fellers keep telling them we dont lower the height of a tree (uhhh top) without sufficient laterals as it is poor pracice....tell'm why etc..., and then walk like the last jobs...every time.

Or

would you explain why its bad practice, and then go ahead if they wish, and take their telephone poles down 25% (or a tad over) during dormancy, and tell them this will require at minimum 2 more trips in the future to "train" solid branches and remove epicormic shoots, and it is imperative they call you back to do so....



I still lean towards advicing remove or just keep walking awaY.


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## Jace (Oct 30, 2012)

Drilled one hole (5/16" dia. I believe) directly thru the center, between knee and waist high, and went 20" deep, which was appro 1" past halfway. It was solid and hard to push the entire depth. 

Therefore....think I am going to trim out the dead, and a few low hanging limbs over the garage. Soil analysis, and advice large ring of mulch. Maybe "root aeriate" on a grid in the spring...

Try to keep'r alive and well instead of removal(no guarantees for sure). We'll see...


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## rmh3481 (Oct 30, 2012)

Jase,
If you decide to trim this tree back, dont cut the branches all the way back to the trunk because the trunk cannot recover and will rot worse. Leave a three inch stub of branch that the tree will drop itself.


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## Jace (Oct 30, 2012)

I follow you...callousing over a large pruning wound for a great bid olllld tree...mission practically impossible.
I'll also be taking as little as needed, (trying to reach a decent lively lateral).


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## TreeGuyHR (Nov 18, 2012)

Jace said:


> I have had multiple jobs lately, that the client is calling me in to take out the entire top of their telephone pole looking post oak trees. The first and 2nd jobs I told'm get someone else. Now Im suppose to look at another one(Ive seen), same deal, about (5) 60' post oaks with small pathetic looking lateral bracnhes all the way up to the top, then they spread. Maybe 16-17" dbh. So I have a question...
> 
> Would you fellers keep telling them we dont lower the height of a tree (uhhh top) without sufficient laterals as it is poor pracice....tell'm why etc..., and then walk like the last jobs...every time.
> 
> ...



What I would say:

If she is telling you to "top it", you should explain why that is not a good idea, and offer an alternative. Which is: do a moderate crown reduction, and thin the epicomic shoots to the best ones, and leave the laterals. Then repeat in 5 years or so.

The question is, why do the trees have very little low crown and epicormics on the trunk? 

I would guess that it is a fairly new home, and these are remnant trees from a forest. If so, I would also suggest a risk assessment, as these trees are at high risk of blow down or wind snap until they establish better taper, larger prop roots, and full crowns. Dig around the root crown and see what sort of root development you have and if it is healthy. Were the roots either buried or exposed? Crushed by heavy equipment? These impacts can cause root death and/or root or butt rot decay to set in.

Right now, if you get high winds (Like from Sandy?!) the trees could uproot or snap because of the long "lever arm" represented by the high small crown being pushed by the wind, while the trunk below bends excessively and applies force on the roots (which may be constricted, given the prior stand). A tree with a full crown will bend more evenly along its length, and less than a high crowned tree, due to wind hitting the crown across its full depth, and the better taper in the trunk brought about by its having been "fed" by the deep crown. More taper means a stiffer trunk. Another reason not to strip all the epicormics off when the tree is pruned!

Ever been in a pine after limbing it up (for a take down) and then have a breeze come up as you are about to top the tree? Same concept -- trunk bending increases in the upper trunk.

my five cents.


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