# Working hurricanes



## Mapleman (Apr 20, 2009)

Kate, Hugo, Bob, Andrew, Opal, Fran, Ivan...I've christened a few of my saws during a hurricane. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and definitely not what it once was (too many hacks, wannabes and rip-off cons), but working 'canes can still be the ultimate adrenaline rush. For me it's like being a fireman. I don't want to see people put in harm's way, but when the bell goes off, my adrenaline starts flowing. It's something I was trained to do and am good at.

Every job comes with its own unique and inherent difficulties where you have to evaluate the situation on site, often improvising. Multiple trees tangled together on a second-story, steep-pitched roof with no overhead tie-in. Gotta love it.

Having a crane is the way to go, but often they are contracted out by the time you hit town. So pulleys in nearby trees, bull lines, pulling with a 4 WD vehicle or Bobcat, and imagination have to suffice. And then there's the $$$.

Once a customer told me he thought i was making too much money on his job, even though his insurance was picking up the tab and I had covered his deductible. (It was a $9,000 three-day job which included a large willow oak on his roof leaning against a chimney, and I had to pay off the crane). I told him I was an artist, and just like Frank Sinatra when he sang in Vegas, I don't work by the hour. I also told him it's extremely dangerous hanging in the air with a running chain saw, and the working life span of climbers is similar to other athletic pursuits--there's only so many years we can work before the body gives out--and that if he wanted, the next time I would loan him my equipment and talk him through the job. He immediately broke out his check book...


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## PurdueJoe (Apr 20, 2009)

Never been to a hurricane but I've been to a couple if ice storms. What are some of the similarities and differences when comparing the two? What I assume is heat is a biggie and instead of just tops and large branches broken such as in an ice storm you are dealing with large trees up rooted.


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## Mapleman (Apr 21, 2009)

"There's bold tree men and there's old tree men, but there's no old, bold tree men."

Hey Purdue,

Obviously it depends on the size of the storm. For sheer destruction, Andrew is numero uno of anything I've ever seen. But it was a small storm--25 miles across maybe. Hugo was the mother of all storms that I've encountered. It's the one that will roll the eyes of tree men and send them falling backwards off their barstools. I worked it in Charlotte, 100 miles inland, and the city was whacked. It was a war zone for about three weeks--curfews, National Guard, brush piles on every street ten feet high, monster oaks uprooted crisscrossing roofs...

My first 'cane was Kate in Tallahassee in the mid 80s. Only had 85 mph when it hit, but Tallahassee did not have an aggressive pruning program in place, so the trees were thick with foliage. First job I went to was a four-foot oak crashed through a brick wall laying across a bed.

That would be a big difference between canes and ice storms: shade trees wouldn't have foliage so the damage would tend to be less severe then in a big blow (class 3 and above 'cane). The sheer extent of an ice storm might be greater though, but for destructive power--knocking over large trees--wind usually takes it over ice.

Personally, I'd rather work in south Florida in August than upstate NY in January. That might seem like a no brainer, but the heat and humidity down south in the summer can be a killer, literally. Generally, we'd start working no later than 7, take a 2 hour lunch break mid day in an air conditioned all u-can-eat buffet, then work till dark.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 21, 2009)

Ice breaks limbs out, quite often you will have a significant portion of the canopies small diameter wood damaged. Large limb failure is at defects such as decay and included unions.

With a hurricane you will see top damage and then windthrows on top of them. Supersaturated soil and straight-line wnds stack things up lime a game of pickup-sticks. I've seen root-plates 30 feet in the air.

Most ice storms occur in lowland pockets, so you can have a zone of devastation, then a relatively untouched area. With hurricanes, the devastation is wide spread with a few terrain features that may protect small pockets of relatively low damage.


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## Mapleman (Apr 21, 2009)

JP,

That was a good analysis of damage assessment between hurricanes and ice storms. Most ice storms I've worked have been in the realm of tree reparation--canopy reduction, heading back leaders, etc.--where as in most hurricanes, it's tree removal. Gets back to the whole yin-yang of tree work: pruning, thinning, and tree health vs. wrecking trees, or to put it another way: finesse climbing vs. power climbing.

Usually in ice storms I'm using my 020 and 026, where as in a 'cane it's--send me a bigger saw. Another difference would be in a 'cane I feel like I'm sleeping with my spurs on, and in an ice storm, I may rarely take them out of my truck. Lastly, the money from hurricanes is more likely to come from insurance companies, so prices tend to rise a bit, lol.


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## PurdueJoe (Apr 21, 2009)

Maple,

When you are down there do you get the majority of your work from private clients or do you do the gov't thing? I know during ice storms I've only dealt with private parties and usually get paid as soon as the job is done. I've heard to many horror stories about gov't gigs that took forever to get paid.


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## Mapleman (Apr 21, 2009)

PJ,

Generally what I do, once a hurricane has departed, is to find out where the northeast quadrant of the storm is. That's the place where the winds are the strongest, all things considered. This is because in the northern hemisphere, 'canes spin in a counterclockwise direction, so you add the forward movement of the storm to the wind speed. 

But in a big storm it hardly matters. I usually pick out a suburban neighborhood with a grid pattern of streets and trees on roofs, and put the tailgate down on my truck with ropes and saws exposed. People will come to you. During hurricane Fran in Cary, NC in '96, I was the only tree guy working this neighborhood of 1/4-1/2 million dollar homes, and I had a crane. I would awake in the morning and find my steering wheel loaded with names, addresses, and phone numbers. People will watch you work from their backyards or front doors, then approach you once you're on the ground. I NEVER work for the government.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 21, 2009)

PurdueJoe said:


> When you are down there do you get the majority of your work from private clients or do you do the gov't thing? I know during ice storms I've only dealt with private parties and usually get paid as soon as the job is done. I've heard to many horror stories about gov't gigs that took forever to get paid.



FEMA work sucks, sometimes you can get a small town contract that pays well, if it is affluent enough.

There are a few things with storms that have to be done:

the storm has to be over several counties for the supply/demand to work in your favor
The real money is made in the first few days to two weeks, by then the vultures are fighting over the shoppers work.
People have to be able to afford the work, if you start in a blue collar neighborhood yo will be disappointed
Everyone has heard stories of the vultures descending, you need to get a few jobs under your belt to get referrals going. then it will flow geometrically

I have headed out and took a motel a half ride out, then drove in after the storm lifted. You can get work, but often you find many people gone.

Cut people out of their driveways for good money per hour, and say you will get back for the other work when there is time. Play it right and you can stay in one general area. Church people are great to work with, once you show one you are trustworthy, it gets rather easy.


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## tomtrees58 (Apr 21, 2009)

one town here on L I call me back in83 hurricane gloria keep me there 38 days time and material big bucks tom trees


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## Rftreeman (Apr 21, 2009)

I worked for the utility department and I probably worked every hurricane since Hugo to hit from Louisiana to Florida to Maryland, got fired in New Orleans in 2005 (long story) while doing work after Katrina & Rita, I loved the work but hated the conditions we were made to live in.


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## Mapleman (Apr 22, 2009)

Rf,

I think our trails must have crossed more than once. with the exception of Katrina/Rita--out due to a hand injury from my 020--I've worked almost all of the big ones since Hugo.

John Paul gave really good advice on his post above. It mirrors my experience to a T. You need to be on site within the first day or two after the winds have died down, find a neighborhood that is socked in with debris, maybe do a little pro bono work opening up a street, and if you're competent and honest, everything will fall in place.


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## Mapleman (Apr 22, 2009)

One other thing--the hardest part of working storms is finding a place to stay.
The power is out, and all hotels/motels are booked up for miles around by people getting out of harms way. Bringing your own trailer or camper is an option. I've also tented it, but that gets old real quick. Sometimes I've had to travel more than 50 miles from where I was staying to the job site. That distance might not sound too bad, but roads are closed and traffic lights are down, so travel is slow. Usually after a week or so accommodations free up, but also the insurance jobs--any trees touching man-made structures--are starting to dwindle. 

Rf,

Have you ever run across a guy by the name of Roberto, last name Italian starting with an S? He worked out of Charleston for a few years after Hugo, then moved down Miami way. He's a real talker, used to sell air conditioners to Eskimos before selling tree work. Bills himself as a Christian, but drops $300-400 every night at Sushi bars and strip clubs. He also is a musician, mostly new-age stuff, but plays a mean blues harp. Ran into him during a big storm in Mt. Dora, Florida in the early 90s, and then again in Pensacola during Opal.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 22, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> Rf,
> 
> Have you ever run across a guy by the name of Roberto, last name Italian starting with an S? He worked out of Charleston for a few years after Hugo, then moved down Miami way. He's a real talker, used to sell air conditioners to Eskimos before selling tree work. Bills himself as a Christian, but drops $300-400 every night at Sushi bars and strip clubs. He also is a musician, mostly new-age stuff, but plays a mean blues harp. Ran into him during a big storm in Mt. Dora, Florida in the early 90s, and then again in Pensacola during Opal.


never meet the guy, all of my hurricane work was with either Asplundh or Davey, spent 13 nights in the front seat of a GMC 2500 van and countless tent cities and the food sucked most of the time but I made good money.


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## treevet (May 16, 2009)

Interesting remnant from our hurricane last fall. Just found out how to reduce it to post. If you were a midget and drove like pet detective......


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## arborworks1 (May 16, 2009)

Stumpgrinding this year is going to be the extent of my chasing, Will have gear on hand but I'm going purely for the stumps. 

Camping and in fast attack. I am planning on heading out to anything east of Texas and as far north as Virginia. Self contained for a week. Hit it hard and leave. Got most everything in order now, need to get some signs and more stump teeth. Truck is all setup and ready to roll. 

This is just something I have been wanting to tackle for a few years. Might not turn into anything.


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## treevet (May 16, 2009)

I don't think I could stand subbing out stumps. Standing by while some inept bozo fumbles around with the removal and then tries to flush with a dull saw. 

Maybe it will work out well for you tho...good luck. What grinder you got?


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## arborworks1 (May 16, 2009)

A 7015 Carlton. Think I'll do ok. The two hurricanes I went to there where very few grinders working the area. I had tons of people stop to see if we would grind for them. The four tree companies I contacted told me they were subbing all there grinding work out, did I want it. This was before I got the carlton. 

Imo the grinding is only good for maybe 2 weeks. Then move on. If people haven't gotten it done by then, its not happening.


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## treevet (May 16, 2009)

You do uprooted stumps too?


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## arborworks1 (May 16, 2009)

I have done 2 so far. But yeah thats where the money is at. They take up time to make sure they are done right.


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## Bigus Termitius (May 16, 2009)

Sweet thread. 

The only thing that I would add to the discussion about the difference between an ice storm and a 'cane is the amount of ice/wind verses wind.

This past year Gustav was anticlimactic, didn't make it to IKE and I'm not over that yet, but the ice that hit northern Arkansas made up for it some. They were calling it Arkansas' Katrina. Don't know if I'll ever see ICE like that again.


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## treevet (May 16, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> I have done 2 so far. But yeah thats where the money is at. They take up time to make sure they are done right.



The small ones are cake but the big ones above reach take some time and skills.


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## treevet (May 16, 2009)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Sweet thread.
> 
> The only thing that I would add to the discussion about the difference between an ice storm and a 'cane is the amount of ice/wind verses wind.
> 
> This past year Gustav was anticlimactic, didn't make it to IKE and I'm not over that yet, but the ice that hit northern Arkansas made up for it some. They were calling it Arkansas' Katrina. Don't know if I'll ever see ICE like that again.



climbing and getting the stuff laying on the houses that is all coated with ice just adds a whole new dimension of danger. Last one we had I had a maple with a huge lead on a house, it and the tree was coated with inches of ice and maybe a foot of wet snow on the house under it. The snow started to melt fast under the sun, and there were big holes in the roof. 

Water was just pouring into the house. No putting it off at that point so had to climb (off crane hook luckily til I was tied in) and it had to be detached from tree as well. You WILL see me wearing spikes in a live tree in that situation.

Big profits and no prices quoted on those jobs although a little scary.


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## Mapleman (May 16, 2009)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Sweet thread.
> 
> The only thing that I would add to the discussion about the difference between an ice storm and a 'cane is the amount of ice/wind verses wind.
> 
> This past year Gustav was anticlimactic, didn't make it to IKE and I'm not over that yet, but the ice that hit northern Arkansas made up for it some. They were calling it Arkansas' Katrina. Don't know if I'll ever see ICE like that again.




Yeah BT,

A good ice storm can rival or surpass a 'cane for sheer volume of work, but usually the damage-severity factor will be much lower. I've pulled into some real war zones over the years, and it really gets the adreneline flowing. I don't wish bad luck and damage on anyone, but I do enjoy working 'canes.


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## Bigus Termitius (May 16, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> Yeah BT,
> 
> A good ice storm can rival or surpass a 'cane for sheer volume of work, but usually the damage-severity factor will be much lower. I've pulled into some real war zones over the years, and it really gets the adreneline flowing. I don't wish bad luck and damage on anyone, but I do enjoy working 'canes.



Exactly, I didn't start the fire, but I'm sure going to enjoy the challenge of putting it out.

When you say damage-severity factor, you mean in total comprehensive devastation, correct.

Northern Arkansas didn't see the total comprehensive devastation of a cane, but their utility systems did. The trees aren't much to look at either, but this was indeed major ice. 

Springfield, Mo. didn't see major ice last year, but as of last year they had seen three storms in roughly the previous 12 month period. They got lucky with no wind on the last one.

I'm looking forward to another season one way or another.


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## treevet (May 17, 2009)

We get torn up here every year with ice and major blows. Grandaddy of all last fall with every road in town closed and no elect for over a week. Been doing storm work for 4 decades and no one is better at it than I am. When the cranes are all rented out I have my own. Worked 4 major ice storms that are very memorable and many smaller ones. No need to chase them as we can count on them as part of yearly income.

The quantity of big wood is diminishing and this is what defines the worst storms. But a huge tree in one place is a totally different animal as the exact tree in another spot. Gotta have the big bucks to make the storms worthwhile.


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## asthesun (May 17, 2009)

i've enjoyed hurricanes for the most part. didnt like katrina though. prolly because of the extensive flooding. it was harder to get work than i expected. people dont care about their trees as much when their house has been washed away. also was very widespread compared to most hurricanes i have been to. instead of driving a few miles to find gas and food, you had to drive a hundred


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 17, 2009)

asthesun said:


> it was harder to get work than i expected. people dont care about their trees as much when their house has been washed away.



That is what I heard, kinda like after a tornado. Since there is nothing standing, what is the point of removing a tree? Sometimes it is all loader work at that point anyway.


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## treevet (May 17, 2009)

That is true. One of the biggest pita s is when the insurance dude shows up as you are getting started and takes notes on every little piece of lattice work, etc. dinged and plans not to cover anything damaged in the process of getting a giant tree off the delicate little box of a house. 

Quite often they don't even show up tho.

People think they are shopping for a tree service when the storms hit but in reality I/others are shopping for the best job that you know will be paid directly by the client (they collect from insurance) and getting the jobs that will pay the most in the shortest time span. I sometimes will start 5 or 6 jobs to get the partial performance aspect of a contract.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 17, 2009)

> I sometimes will start 5 or 6 jobs to get the partial performance aspect of a contract.



I have known people who do that, and have always been uncomfortable. The way I' work around that is to contract the hazard work at a higher rate, leaving the agreement to return for follow up as tentative. This way I can get on to other jobs of a similar nature. I will often ask them to refer me to the neighbors, while I am working.

Some of the early storm jobs I did had T&M contracts that were basically time sheets for the crew. There was an agreement for the customer to: pay at $xxx hourly rate, from the last quarter hour, not to exceed $xxxx, paid on completion. 

This way one of us lead guys could clock out and start a neighbor as things got done on a property. Some of it was just cutting people out of their driveways, or getting stuff off the house: 45 min @ $225/crew hour would be the end result.


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## treevet (May 17, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I have known people who do that, and have always been uncomfortable. The way I' work around that is to contract the hazard work at a higher rate, leaving the agreement to return for follow up as tentative. This way I can get on to other jobs of a similar nature. I will often ask them to refer me to the neighbors, while I am working.
> 
> Some of the early storm jobs I did had T&M contracts that were basically time sheets for the crew. There was an agreement for the customer to: pay at $xxx hourly rate, from the last quarter hour, not to exceed $xxxx, paid on completion.
> 
> This way one of us lead guys could clock out and start a neighbor as things got done on a property. Some of it was just cutting people out of their driveways, or getting stuff off the house: 45 min @ $225/crew hour would be the end result.



I probably should have stated that in another way. We do triage, in other words we work our way down from the highest risk to public and property and leave different degrees of safe with the work area cordoned off when we leave. Nobody is gonna get hurt once I take on a job. The house I will post a picture of (and have before, just saved it for example) was condemned for 2 days until we got the big elm off. Nobody goes in, out or near the house but us




.

I never liked working for an hourly rate. You got people watching you out the window and writing when you go in the bushes for a piss.


Sometimes we are making $500. man hour. They would gag. If they don't know they quite often see you as a hero of sorts.


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## treeseer (May 17, 2009)

Biggest difference is that more ice-damaged trees can--and should--be repaired, while hurricane damaged trees typically have less to work with. Either way the best rewards are from restoring damaged trees, and watching them grow back.

attached is an "after" pic of a severely damaged tree that sanborn may recall. Most of those 6" wounds left closed completely within 5 years.  With only one restoration pruning, prognosis is excellent.


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## treevet (May 17, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Biggest difference is that more ice-damaged trees can--and should--be repaired, while hurricane damaged trees typically have less to work with. Either way the best rewards are from restoring damaged trees, and watching them grow back.
> 
> attached is an "after" pic of a severely damaged tree that sanborn may recall. Most of those 6" wounds left closed completely within 5 years.  With only one restoration pruning, prognosis is excellent.



there is quite often a huge benefit to getting an aerial to the tree. You can make much more delicate cuts and leave more as a result (equals better chance of survival/quicker recovery. may want to aeriate the soil from truck compaction afterwards.


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## treeseer (May 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> there is quite often a huge benefit to getting an aerial to the tree. You can make much more delicate cuts and leave more as a result (equals better chance of survival/quicker recovery.


there is also a huge benefit to knowing how to climb and use pole tools. that tree like 99% of all I do is rope and saddle. that tree was pruned by an above average but not exceptional climber who's about 5'4". Willow oaks are generally very easy to climb.


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## arborworks1 (May 17, 2009)

Its a lost art for sure Guy. Most climbers around here never get about a foot away from the trunk. A good pole saw and clipper will set you back 500 bucks but will make untold amounts of money in their lifetime.


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## gr8scott72 (May 17, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> Stumpgrinding this year is going to be the extent of my chasing, Will have gear on hand but I'm going purely for the stumps.
> 
> Camping and in fast attack. I am planning on heading out to anything east of Texas and as far north as Virginia. Self contained for a week. Hit it hard and leave. Got most everything in order now, need to get some signs and more stump teeth. Truck is all setup and ready to roll.
> 
> This is just something I have been wanting to tackle for a few years. Might not turn into anything.



I made just over $9k in 11 days ($7k of that in 4 days) in Beaumont/Houston after Ike last year doing just stumps.


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## gr8scott72 (May 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> The small ones are cake but the big ones above reach take some time and skills.



You mean like this:

Before:





After:





That one took just under an hour and was $400 iirc.


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## arborworks1 (May 17, 2009)

Thats what I'm talking about. I have everything setup on one truck. No trailers to worry with and I'll be camping, So not really a big deal on finding a place to stay. I'll tie up my hammock in a parking lot if I have to. Food and water for a week. May need Ice hopefully that will not be to hard to find. Small generator and air compressor. And a few spare parts to get through.


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## tree md (May 17, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> Thats what I'm talking about. I have everything setup on one truck. No trailers to worry with and I'll be camping, So not really a big deal on finding a place to stay. I'll tie up my hammock in a parking lot if I have to. Food and water for a week. May need Ice hopefully that will not be to hard to find. Small generator and air compressor. And a few spare parts to get through.



I've slept on my ropes camped out doing storm work. 10.7 on my first job during the 07 ice storm here. Next two jobs were 6.3 and 5.5. Hell of a week!


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 17, 2009)

treeseer said:


> attached is an "after" pic of a severely damaged tree that sanborn may recall. Most of those 6" wounds left closed completely within 5 years.  With only one restoration pruning, prognosis is excellent.



Ya! I remember the slate roofs and real rought iron fences.

Do you have any pictures where I cut above the tear, leaving some of the broken wood on?


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## arborworks1 (May 17, 2009)

My thing for grinding is hit the small jobs that people are passing up. I would rather get in and get out and keep myself visible for more jobs. A large job would be cool, but I might put it off to get more exposure to start with.


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## treevet (May 17, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Ya! I remember the slate roofs and real rought iron fences.
> 
> Do you have any pictures where I cut above the tear, leaving some of the broken wood on?



I will leave broken wood on at times planning to remove later after holes in canopy fill in. Sunscald can be an issue too.


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## treevet (May 17, 2009)

treeseer said:


> there is also a huge benefit to knowing how to climb and use pole tools. that tree like 99% of all I do is rope and saddle. that tree was pruned by an above average but not exceptional climber who's about 5'4". Willow oaks are generally very easy to climb.



The bucket is just another tool a tree company should have. Not just for removals. There is not a human being small enough to get out and make some cuts that would be beneficial so as not to just make the best cut under the circumstances with a climber. Esp in storm damage repair.


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## tree md (May 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> The bucket is just another tool a tree company should have. Not just for removals. There is not a human being small enough to get out and make some cuts that would be beneficial so as not to just make the best cut under the circumstances with a climber. Esp in storm damage repair.



Doing storm damage where there are multiple trees to prune on individual properties a bucket or lift is indispensable. Much more efficient than climbing.


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## jefflovstrom (May 17, 2009)

gr8scott72 said:


> I made just over $9k in 11 days ($7k of that in 4 days) in Beaumont/Houston after Ike last year doing just stumps.



9K in 11 days is ? One guy for 10 days. 9K is one day for my crew at best, two days max, half crew. Lots of wear and tear.
Jeff


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 17, 2009)

tree md said:


> Doing storm damage where there are multiple trees to prune on individual properties a bucket or lift is indispensable. Much more efficient than climbing.



Could not fit one in on many of the old Carolina homes that Guy works on. Combine the small yard, 90 ft oaks and non-coated high-tension primaries on the street...


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## arborworks1 (May 17, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> 9K in 11 days is ? One guy for 10 days. 9K is one day for my crew at best, two days max, half crew. Lots of wear and tear.
> 
> We are talking one guy, only fuel for grinder mostly and some gas for truck. Not huge overhead that a 15 man crew would carry. YOu have to have alot of work sold up to keep that monster fed(your crew that is)


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## jefflovstrom (May 17, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> jefflovstrom said:
> 
> 
> > 9K in 11 days is ? One guy for 10 days. 9K is one day for my crew at best, two days max, half crew. Lots of wear and tear.
> ...


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## gr8scott72 (May 17, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> jefflovstrom said:
> 
> 
> > 9K in 11 days is ? One guy for 10 days. 9K is one day for my crew at best, two days max, half crew. Lots of wear and tear.
> ...



Yup, just me. I probably netted $8k after ALL expenses (travel, gas, diesel, lodging, replacement teeth, other supplies, food)


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## arborworks1 (May 17, 2009)

See now that is good money in 11 days after expenses that is 725 per day. if you can do that with each man on a crew you are doing very well. Keep it up.

That is pretty good money after all said expenses I believe. Not great but I would go for it.


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## jefflovstrom (May 17, 2009)

gr8scott72 said:


> Yup, just me. I probably netted $8k after ALL expenses (travel, gas, diesel, lodging, replacement teeth, other supplies, food)



I am confused and sorry for it. 9K in 11 days and you net 8K!, gas, lodging, etc., less than 1K overhead on all those days? I am am amazed.
Jeff


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## arborworks1 (May 17, 2009)

Its only one man, not like he was feeding an army, plus the grinder is pretty good on fuel. And if was doing it right, he was working door to door in a nice neighborhood, maybe moving truck 4 times a day. 

If you make a plan and work it, storm work can be pretty rewarding.


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## jefflovstrom (May 17, 2009)

O.K., I am just saying that is great to live on less than 100 dollars a day that includes gas, food, lodging, and all the other expences! Like I said, wow, good job!
Jeff


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## Mapleman (May 17, 2009)

This thread is covering a lot of ground, and there's a lot that's caught my attention in individual posts, but rather than respond to them all, individually, I'm just gonna write a missive and see what sticks.

Ice storms seem to generate more in the way of tree reparation--at least that's been my experience. Not to say that you don't get into the whole "euc man" persona on occasion, removing uprooted trees from houses, cutting down trees that have been tweeked beyond repair, or taking out whole leaders that have been damaged with no hope of regeneration. But by and large, for a climber, ice storms involve removing hangers and cracked branches and knowing tree species and how they will respond to bigger cuts.

A general rule that I've used in pruning is to never take a branch back to a side branch that is less than one-third the diameter of the main branch you are working on. But rules are made to be broken. Sometimes, when there are no healthy, structurally sound sides branches, I'll stub the main branch off rather than taking it back to the trunk. I'll do this when the tree is a quick-growing species, or has become very lopsided and I want to fill in a blank area, or the cut back to the branch collar will be so large that the already storm-impacted tree will need more resources to heal the new wound. This kind of reparation isn't a one shot deal and necessitates returning over a period of a few years to "groom" the new growth or maybe remove the shootless stub. Storm reparation is becoming a lost art as the technical climbing expertise to limb walk and set up safely using two ropes, and to make the correct cuts using polesaws and handsaws seems beyond the sensibilities, patience, and capabilities of many climbers. 

I've worked many more hurricanes than ice storms, and what I've seen is that typically the severity of damage (big uprooted trees impacting roofs and hung up in other trees; tops blown out; trees wrecked beyond repair; backyards crisscrossed with a dozen trees) is much greater than ice storms. This doesn't mean though that the amount of work is greater. A big ice storm can sometimes cover a greater area than a 'cane and the work can go on for months. Obviously, buckets are a huge asset if you are working a winter ice storm. Climbing frozen trees sucks, period. 

I've learned not to chase 'canes unless they impact a moderately to heavily populated area and the winds have been consistently clocked at over 100 mph. The idea is to get to ground zero quickly and establish a work perimeter, just like you are going to war, which in effect, you are. Typically, depending on the size and power of the 'cane, the big money will be made in the first two to three weeks--removing trees from houses and other structures that are insured. The first two questions I ask a HO is "What did your insurance agent say?" and "Did you take photos?" The usual responses are: "My agent said do whatever it takes." and "I took two rolls of film." At this point, it's pretty much name your own price, especially if the structural integrity of the house is in question, or the roof needs a temporary patch once the offending tree is removed. Offering to cover the HOs deductible and to patch the roof once the tree is off usually seals the deal.

Because every Little Tom Hacker and his merry band of shoeless tree urchins has now discovered that hurricanes can equate into fast money, it's important to establish yourself quickly in a suburban area and use your first jobs as references for future work. If all goes well it will be a chain reaction. The hackers will quickly work themselves out of a neighborhood due to all the collateral damage they do, their cut throat, swaggering mentality, or simply that they look more like pirates than tree men. What will set your apart from the "barefoot boys" is a professional attitude and the ability to convince the HO that you have the technical ability to safely remove several tons of wood from their home without causing additional damage. Having a photo album of past storms you have worked, references, or access to a crane can sometimes be the difference between landing a $9500 insurance job and clearing someone's driveway by the hour--not to say that good money can't be made freeing up a doctor's or lawyer's driveway. Personally, I like to finish a job once I've started it, ie, getting all the dangerous, threatening stuff done. You can always come back for the pruning and tree reparation. Having two or more competent climbers is a big plus, as you can be bidding the next job as your buddy is finishing up one.

I generally work as long as there is light, so 12-14 hour days, seven days a week are SOP. But there will come a point when you need to just back off, do some bidding and maintenance, and rest your body. Otherwise, you'll burn out and fry. Camping out while doing all this is sometimes necessary as accomodations are stretched thin. Personally, I like to motel it or rent a room in a house because if I'm working those long hours I need some creature comforts.

The thing that turns me on the most about 'canes is that you often have to improvise to get a job done. The degree of technical difficulty can be huge. I've done jobs by hand that very few others would touch without a crane. These jobs are both extremely satisifying and finanacially rewarding. And in the end, that's what it's all about.


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## oldirty (May 17, 2009)

hey mapleman. next storm that gives you the urge to drive to , i am hopping in with you. got all my own gear too.


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## gr8scott72 (May 17, 2009)

oldirty said:


> hey mapleman. next storm that gives you the urge to drive to , i am hopping in with you. got all my own gear too.



And I'll bring the skid steer and the grinder. :greenchainsaw:


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

Always looking for a few good men, and skidsters rock...


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## gr8scott72 (May 18, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> Always looking for a few good men, and skidsters rock...



It's a smaller skid but it's got a big heart. lol


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## stihlhere (May 18, 2009)

*hay gr8scott72*

hay what kind of tracks are those on your skid steer??


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## tree md (May 18, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Could not fit one in on many of the old Carolina homes that Guy works on. Combine the small yard, 90 ft oaks and non-coated high-tension primaries on the street...



Hey, you know how I work. That's what makes us specialized. But the guys who are hitting it quick and racking up the quick dollars are the ones with buckets and lifts. Equipment makes money in storms... But I know I don't have to explain that to you.


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## tree md (May 18, 2009)

Here's what I do when it happens in my area. 

First, I call my customer base and make sure they are OK, driveway is clear(insurance usually pays up to $500 for this and it can usually be done in less than an hour), can get out to get groceries, have firewood as the power is out. I take care of those who have taken care of me first. Then I set up "triage" if you will. I get the crane service online and start out with trees on houses. then I start "mitigating hazards" I get the hanging limbs and hazards out of the trees and come back later to make proper "healing", pruning cuts. Much later comes stump grinding in my organization. In an emergency storm situation, stumps are the last thing on my mind.

If I work in another state or locale, I try to hook up with somebody local to begin with, establish a number and go from there. It helps if you are established with good credentials elsewhere (IE A+ BBB rating/established service record, etc) and have a portfolio.

Mapleman explained it well. It's obvious he has extensive storm experience. I know for a fact that JPS and many others here do as well. Don't be afraid to contract a climber or indeed, a large company to help out with your overflow. It benefits your community and yourself.


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## capetrees (May 18, 2009)

stihlhere said:


> hay what kind of tracks are those on your skid steer??




It's not my skidsteer but those are turf tracks, designed to do minimal if any damage to grass while driving over it. Seen the videos and they are pretty sweet. Don't know about the traction in wet or incline conditions.


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## stihlhere (May 18, 2009)

no the pic in your post is the first. My skid steer has tires would i benifit from a slip over type track and are they (by they i mean slip over type) offered in a turf track?? thanks


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 18, 2009)

As MD (Larry) points out, your operational modality will be different depending on whether you are in your own area or not. Most of this discussion has been about chasing storms.

As MM implies, there has been a sub industry evolving around storm work, that has depressed the the earning potential of travel. My best trips have always been when I team up with a local operator who treats it as a long term business opportunity. Take care of your clientele first, then go for the big money, use the extant customers as a means to generate more business only in the area that you are working in now. If you have a phone, tell people that new customers will be serviced as practical while, or after, you take care of your loyal clients. 

Phone service is critical if you want to use the event to build your company. Before the storm, sign on with a national answering service so you can forward the calls to them. After the storm, if you need to, get a temporary out of area phone that you can relay or pick up messages from. Cells are often out of service for days with big storms. 

Once things settle, get more then one person to answer phones (yes plural, an answered phone gets the lead) that have a script and a form to fill out and file to group lead sheets together with neighboring extant clients, telling the potential client that you will not bid, but perform the work as after you take care of a loyal client in the neighbor hood.


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## treevet (May 18, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> A general rule that I've used in pruning is to never take a branch back to a side branch that is less than one-third the diameter of the main branch you are working on. But rules are made to be broken. Sometimes, when there are no healthy, structurally sound sides branches, I'll stub the main branch off rather than taking it back to the trunk. I'll do this when the tree is a quick-growing species, or has become very lopsided and I want to fill in a blank area, or the cut back to the branch collar will be so large that the already storm-impacted tree will need more resources to heal the new wound. This kind of reparation isn't a one shot deal and necessitates returning over a period of a few years to "groom" the new growth or maybe remove the shootless stub.
> 
> Storm reparation is becoming a lost art



This a very professional, thorough and comprehensive well thought out post.

If I was to pick at nits, my one issue would be the use of the word heal and the confusion of "closure" as opposed to compartmentalization. Leaving the big stubs obviously makes the tree safe and allows one to "move on" to the next task but the leaving of the big stub when you are in another state is doing the client a disservice as even with adventitious sprouts generated at a later date, there will be decay involved and it will enter the parent stem in all likelyhood. It may anyway but I say, give the tree a fighting chance (no matter what the species....not a consideration IMO). 

It is the compartmentalization that will tax the energy stores and not the "healing" (hate to use that word in regard to trees, as it is very unprofessional in itself) or closure .....but IMO it is the right thing to do and go ahead and take off the big stub in most circumstances with a good natural target pruning cut and hope the tree will fill the hole in the canopy with lateral growth off the main architecture remaining. You will not be coming back to finish later as I understand it.

Also, I do not feel it is a dying art as mentioned above. I think the state of arboriculture is at an all time high with certification, new knowledge and forums like this, etc. It is the "outlaws" that water down the profession and local legislature is necessary to forbid them from even touching trees until they have reached a documented level of knowledge like we are doing in my town on the local UFB I am a member of thru them obtaining permits to work and needing certification and time OJT to get them.


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## treevet (May 18, 2009)

I would also like to add for discussion before going off to work, that necessity being the mother of invention (or possession in this case), that if I was going off to chase the seasonal "canes" etc., I would strive to purchase a truck boom or crane (given one already owns a bucket truck). As Mapleman says there is a sense of accomplishment in doing some of this work in rope and saddle, I think you are playing with the odds, and the more you do under these circumstances you will eventually have a catastrophic accident.

A truck boom can get into a lot of places (with the boom) that the elbow of a picker cannot, like maybe in Guy's trees and even go over matted wires. You can climb off them. You can pick damage out of the trees without just detaching broken limbs and damaging others they crush into. But the main thing is the critical first 2 weeks Mapleman describes where we spent every day taking trees embedded IN houses off of them (actually it was 3 weeks here for me). This is BY FAR the most profitable aspect of damage work and the chances of renting a crane with or without an op are slim and none, and slim




left town long ago. From day 1 you could not get one in Cinci.

We made a bundle owning a truck crane/boom and they are not that expensive and very mobile on highway. Many out of work roofers sell them all the time they used for setting trusses.


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## asthesun (May 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> I would also like to add for discussion before going off to work, that necessity being the mother of invention (or possession in this case), that if I was going off to chase the seasonal "canes" etc., I would strive to purchase a truck boom or crane (given one already owns a bucket truck). As Mapleman says there is a sense of accomplishment in doing some of this work in rope and saddle, I think you are playing with the odds, and the more you do under these circumstances you will eventually have a catastrophic accident.
> 
> A truck boom can get into a lot of places (with the boom) that the elbow of a picker cannot, like maybe in Guy's trees and even go over matted wires. You can climb off them. You can pick damage out of the trees without just detaching broken limbs and damaging others they crush into. But the main thing is the critical first 2 weeks Mapleman describes where we spent every day taking trees embedded IN houses off of them (actually it was 3 weeks here for me). This is BY FAR the most profitable aspect of damage work and the chances of renting a crane with or without an op are slim and none, and slim left town long ago. From day 1 you could not get one in Cinci.
> 
> We made a bundle owning a truck crane/boom and they are not that expensive and very mobile on highway. Many out of work roofers sell them all the time they used for setting trusses.



whats the max lifting power on that item?


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## gr8scott72 (May 18, 2009)

capetrees said:


> It's not my skidsteer but those are turf tracks, designed to do minimal if any damage to grass while driving over it. Seen the videos and they are pretty sweet. Don't know about the traction in wet or incline conditions.



They are fine in wet conditions and on inclines but they stink in the mud.


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> This a very professional, thorough and comprehensive well thought out post.
> 
> If I was to pick at nits, my one issue would be the use of the word heal and the confusion of "closure" as opposed to compartmentalization. Leaving the big stubs obviously makes the tree safe and allows one to "move on" to the next task but the leaving of the big stub when you are in another state is doing the client a disservice as even with adventitious sprouts generated at a later date, there will be decay involved and it will enter the parent stem in all likelyhood. It may anyway but I say, give the tree a fighting chance (no matter what the species....not a consideration IMO).
> 
> ...





TV,

Totally agree on the compartamentalization (that's a mouthful) issue. I use healing as shorthand. As to leaving stubs, depending on the tree species, I think the jury is still out on that one. When I did an ice storm in NC one year, the willow oaks took a real beating. I asked some local arborists more versed in working willow oaks than I am about "stubbing" off branches. The prevailing consensus was willow oaks can "handle" it and recover. I wouldn't try that with sugar maple, white or red oak however. 

I guess when I said that tree reparation is becoming a lost art I was referring to most of the characters I've met while doing storms. Some of these guys never met a polesaw, sleep with their gaffs on, and use their climbing lines as tow ropes. Obviously, there are still professionals out there who see trees as living creatures and understand the science involved in tree surgery. 

There is definitely a difference in approach in working storms on your own turf as opposed to being on the road. MD said it well when he talked about taking care of established clientel first and setting up triage. And JPS was spot on with his advice as to setting up a phone system and personal contact with customers. I've met guys who have set up shop for years in a new city after a strom blew through because they did it the right way, and then of course there are the fly-by-nighters who take the money and run. 

Like John said, there is a whole subculture out there who pretty much do nothing but chase storms. I worked Hugo in Charlotte, NC. A buddy and I took a Sunday off and drove to Charleston to see how bad it was. We pulled into a campground that was packed with nothing but tree workers and their equipment. It looked like an armed camp of mercenaries, swaggering around and ranting how they just made $1200 for making one cut, blah, blah, blah...

My first 'cane was Kate in Tallahassee, 1985. I wound up staying there four months. I contracted myself, my truck, and my tools to a local tree outfit. Three weeks later, when the crane and insurance work was done, I had established myself and was able to land my own customers and sub out to other outfits for stuff that was, shall we say, a bit over their heads. Working that first storm gave me the opportunity to see the operational end of things, and when Hugo did its thing in '87, I was prepared to do my own thing.

I approach working hurricanes with the mentality of a fireman. I don't want to see anyone get hurt and suffer, but this is what I'm trained to do--I'm really good at removing hazardous trees in tricky situations. When the bell goes off, I get fired up--I love this stuff.

With storms that do damage that require tree reparation, my enthusiasm is just as great, but my mentality has shifted into more of a EMT or ER mode. If it's on my own home turf, it shifts again into long term health care. I like being able to wear more that just one hat...


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## tree md (May 18, 2009)

I use the term healing with Joe Home Owner. Maybe not the proper term but I feel that it communicates the point I'm trying to get across to them better than compartmentalization. I explain the process to them but refer to the second and third phase of pruning storm damaged trees as making "healing" cuts. 

Having your own crane/boom truck gives you a huge advantage in the industry as a whole, even more so in a storm situation. If it is in your own community where you have an established account with a local crane service it is not hard to get a crane on site. When your on the road it can be challenging at best, sometimes nearly impossible to get a crane on site. I hope to have my own boom truck someday.


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> I would also like to add for discussion before going off to work, that necessity being the mother of invention (or possession in this case), that if I was going off to chase the seasonal "canes" etc., I would strive to purchase a truck boom or crane (given one already owns a bucket truck). As Mapleman says there is a sense of accomplishment in doing some of this work in rope and saddle, I think you are playing with the odds, and the more you do under these circumstances you will eventually have a catastrophic accident.
> 
> A truck boom can get into a lot of places (with the boom) that the elbow of a picker cannot, like maybe in Guy's trees and even go over matted wires. You can climb off them. You can pick damage out of the trees without just detaching broken limbs and damaging others they crush into. But the main thing is the critical first 2 weeks Mapleman describes where we spent every day taking trees embedded IN houses off of them (actually it was 3 weeks here for me). This is BY FAR the most profitable aspect of damage work and the chances of renting a crane with or without an op are slim and none, and slim
> 
> ...





Nice aerial of the boom truck in action. Having your own rig is the way to go. With the way the economy is right now, you can probably pick up a used one for a decent price. I really could have used one on Hugo as I was told more than once by a HO: "First guy who shows up with a crane gets the job." It's one thing to lift pine off a roof using blocks, a faux boom, and a 4 WD vehicle. Doing oak is a whole 'nother animal. Also, the pitch and composition of a roof can dictate crane/bucket or manual climbing. Working on Spanish tiles at a 45 degree pitch without a direct overhead tie-in is the stuff of nightmares.


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## tree md (May 18, 2009)

I had a crane on site on the first job I did in the ice storm here in 07. The neighbors house had a tree on it and I told the people that I could give them a good price while I had the crane out there. They said they wanted to get multiple estimates (in a disaster situation) and I said no problem, I'd give them an estimate when I had a chance. The had a bucket jockey give them a cut rate price but he would have to access the job through my client's yard. She refused to give him access because she didn't want her property torn up after I had worked to clean it up. He nibbled at what he could from the front and walked away from the job (with their money) and they called me back out there to look at the tree again. I saw where I could set a block in a neighboring tree and remove it like MM just mentioned but it would take me much longer than it would have when I had a crane on site (couldn't access through my original clients yard after I had already cleaned up). I put an aggravation charge into my bid. They finally hired someone else to take the tree off the house. Not sure if they used a crane or not but I know they paid a lot more to remove the tree than they would have had they let me take it off with the crane while I had it on site.


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

tree md said:


> I had a crane on site on the first job I did in the ice storm here in 07. The neighbors house had a tree on it and I told the people that I could give them a good price while I had the crane out there. They said they wanted to get multiple estimates (in a disaster situation) and I said no problem, I'd give them an estimate when I had a chance. The had a bucket jockey give them a cut rate price but he would have to access the job through my client's yard. She refused to give him access because she didn't want her property torn up after I had worked to clean it up. He nibbled at what he could from the front and walked away from the job (with their money) and they called me back out there to look at the tree again. I saw where I could set a block in a neighboring tree and remove it like MM just mentioned but it would take me much longer than it would have when I had a crane on site (couldn't access through my original clients yard after I had already cleaned up). I put an aggravation charge into my bid. They finally hired someone else to take the tree off the house. Not sure if they used a crane or not but I know they paid a lot more to remove the tree than they would have had they let me take it off with the crane while I had it on site.





Yeah, you just got to make some people pay for their ignorance sometimes.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 18, 2009)

In the stages of storm work I call the first part hazard mitigation; get the hangers and breaks out to clean wood and schedule a return for later if there is any other work to be done. 

If not then I will recommend the crown restoration in 3-5 years, i think this is what MP calls "reparation". Thin out the sprout branches, leaving those with the best angle of attachment.

On the stub, or not to stub question: I will stub whenever there is sufficient wood to support sprouting, even if it is larger then the 1/3 rule.

As Guy M. points out on many occasions, Best Practices pruning cuts are to the *NODE* not just to the branch union. After all a branch union is just a node that bifurcated. 

In any significant storm trees often loose half or more of their dynamic mass; that is leaf and bark tissue that contains chlorophyll. If every cut is a collar cut, there is often very little tree left. My thought is to clean the limb off to allow it as much chance to regenerate new tissue as possible.

If i am out of town i will recommend that they have a CA do the restoration work in latter years, though I'm usually working for a local one at the time. My trip to OK, where I met Larry, was the first time that all i did was sell for a carpetbagger (Petersen is actually a very ethical company).


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## treevet (May 18, 2009)

asthesun said:


> whats the max lifting power on that item?



It is 12 ton 67 foot w a 25 foot jib. I sub if I need bigger but use this for a lot of stuff. We pin down the a$$ end with a big honker on the bed for stability sometimes.


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## treevet (May 18, 2009)

Wondering what you fella s do with your home clientele while on the road trip? Can't help but think some are miffed that they have needs while you are chasing the big bucks and ignoring them save a phone call or email.

One of my biggest assets IMO is my availability. Someone calls that has being paying my bills for decades, hey, I am over there in minutes no matter how trivial or involved the request is.

Plus there are so many variables with trying to collect from the ins co. Having the HO take picts and getting the go ahead does not tell you how much $ they will cover and what they will cover, when you will be paid etc etc. You have no leverage with their ins co.

PS....I was referring to leaving a 3 to 6 foot stub that is 12 " plus dia or there abouts. Bad practice IMO.


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## asthesun (May 18, 2009)

run a crew at home and a crew on the run ofc


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> Wondering what you fella s do with your home clientele while on the road trip? Can't help but think some are miffed that they have needs while you are chasing the big bucks and ignoring them save a phone call or email.
> 
> One of my biggest assets IMO is my availability. Someone calls that has being paying my bills for decades, hey, I am over there in minutes no matter how trivial or involved the request is.
> 
> ...





In all my time doing insurance work, only once did I bill the insurance company directly. I'll come back to that in a minute. The way it's always worked for me (this is in North Carolina and Florida) is you get paid by the homeowner. He/she gets reimbursed by the insurance co. Never have I had an insurance co. quibble with my invoice except for the one aforementioned time. 

On a really bad storm the agents are straight out, and it's pretty much carte blanche as far as what you want to charge. If there is a large tree on a house, the longer it remains, the more potential for structural damage there is. Also, if there is a hole in the roof, rain will definitely factor into the equation as the insurance co. wants the tree off as quickly as possible so the roof can be patched, mitigating internal damage and additional $$$ they will have to spend. They're savy enuf to know that removing the tree quickly will save them money in the long run, so the agent will tell the HO to have the first credible tree man remove the tree.

Sometimes HOs will say they want three bids. But that's usually when there are lots of tree guys in the neighborhod and/or the tree situation is not threatening.

As to the one instance that I dealt with the insurance co. directly: The agent had to travel some distance to check out the damage--white pine laying on a glassed in sun room. The HO wanted it done immediately. I took a lot of photos before removing the tree, which turned out to be fairly simple and fast by using a few "tree tricks." Desk jockey at the insurance company thought I made too much on the job, so I mailed him the photos, closeups showing big diameter wood resting on metal framework supporting glass roof panels. He mailed me a check for the full amount. Moral of the story: a picture can be worth $1500.

My regular clientele are fully aware that when late summer, early autumn rolls around, I'm on call. I leave them with the numbers of a couple of competent climbers in the area in case of emergency.

Lastly, TV, do you really think I'm the kinda guy who is gonna leave 6 foot long, one foot diameter stubs? Regardless of the health factor to the tree, a stub that size is likely going to be a dead wood hazard in a few years. I always err on the side of safety.


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## treeseer (May 18, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> do you really think I'm the kinda guy who is gonna leave 6 foot long, one foot diameter stubs? Regardless of the health factor to the tree, a stub that size is likely going to be a dead wood hazard in a few years. I always err on the side of safety.


Maple, I'm agreein gwith most of what you are saying, but reducing branches rather than removing is better in most cases, in all species. white oak red oak red maple pecan sycamore etc. etc. 

I've had 10' long stubs 12" dia come back fine--well, okay, anyway. I've had others not come back well, but formed a collar to cut back to, where there was none before. You gotta think in tree time, not how it looks after you first cut it...and the story about leaving a hazard makes sense only if the branch does not sprout. It does not hold up when you think about how long it takes a limb to rot; and the more it sprouts the better it will seal. 

Back to the first good node, always!

JPS sorry but lost a bunch of pics in computer crash incl those with your smiling face. 

The April 2003 TCI piece was the best article on heading back storm damage. Too big to attach here, but you cna find it in their archives. attached is the ISA version, and gilman's recent work in the same vein..and also a recent one looking at nodal vs. internodal pruning.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 18, 2009)

> JPS sorry but lost a bunch of pics in computer crash incl those with your smiling face.



We'll have to do it again some time


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## treeseer (May 18, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> We'll have to do it again some time



Well bad weather is nothing to hope for but still it will happen.

I'll keep doing storm repair work, but accommodations are key so if there is a storm i hope it's where i have a wealthy relative...I stayed for weeks with Jean and Isabel and Andrew cuz of that.

Much lower overhead and lower risk and lower strain in storm repair than removals. But tv I hear ya on the bucket--very useful for a lot of work. But a bucket can seldom get 360 of a tree so climbing is needed too.


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## John464 (May 18, 2009)

treeseer said:


> But a bucket can seldom get 360 of a tree so climbing is needed too.




a bucket truck may not be able to get 360 the tree but a spiderlift with telescoping upper and lower booms very often can when working in small yards


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Maple, I'm agreein gwith most of what you are saying, but reducing branches rather than removing is better in most cases, in all species. white oak red oak red maple pecan sycamore etc. etc.
> 
> I've had 10' long stubs 12" dia come back fine--well, okay, anyway. I've had others not come back well, but formed a collar to cut back to, where there was none before. You gotta think in tree time, not how it looks after you first cut it...and the story about leaving a hazard makes sense only if the branch does not sprout. It does not hold up when you think about how long it takes a limb to rot; and the more it sprouts the better it will seal.
> 
> ...




TS,

I'm agreeing with you too. The thing to remember is me and Treevet are from up north. The growing season is shorter than where you are, so hardwoods don't sprout out the way they do in say, the Carolinas, Florida or California. I can get away with stubbing a strom-damaged soft maple, but no way a sugar or a northern red or white oak.

It's a fine line we have to walk, and sometimes it gets down to a gut call. If I'm working a tree over playground equipment far from my home turf and I know I won't be getting back to check on that big stub I'm thinking of leaving, I'll nail it. However, if the HO seems like he's with the program and will do followups with CAs, then I may be more of a mind to leave the stub, hoping it will generate new growth. 

If a tree is a fast growing species in a warm climate and it's really wrecked and gonna need all its juices to compartamentalize, then rather then making a huge cut back to the collar, I'll stub cut it, give it the Father Sarducci blessing, and inform the HO to keep an eye on it. I don't think there are hard and fast rules here as locale, tree species, and amount of damage comes into play. That's what is so great about this biz, it ain't ever the same...


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## treevet (May 18, 2009)

I agree, Mapleman, it is a fine line. Discretion comes with education, research and observation. 

I think sometimes we confuse "sealing" "closure" with compartmentalization. I have seen many judiciously left stubs that have sprouted in abundance carry decay back into the parent stem. This is the main thing we need to avoid. A branch collar can begin to form with a stub instigating it however I doubt if compartmentalization on all 4 walls begins until the stub is ghandi. 

Stubs are a big stick of candy to fungi.....from Alex Shigo.


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## Mapleman (May 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> I agree, Mapleman, it is a fine line. Discretion comes with education, research and observation.
> 
> I think sometimes we confuse "sealing" "closure" with compartmentalization. I have seen many judiciously left stubs that have sprouted in abundance carry decay back into the parent stem. This is the main thing we need to avoid. A branch collar can begin to form with a stub instigating it however I doubt if compartmentalization on all 4 walls begins until the stub is ghandi.
> 
> Stubs are a big stick of candy to fungi.....from Alex Shigo.



I like that--"ghandi."


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## oldirty (May 19, 2009)

treevet said:


> until the stub is ghandi.
> .



what do you mean? you have pakistani climbers that want to kill the most peaceful stub on the tree?

(booooo. bad joke)


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## Mapleman (May 19, 2009)

oldirty said:


> what do you mean? you have pakistani climbers that want to kill the most peaceful stub on the tree?
> 
> (booooo. bad joke)



OD,

That's okay, you're batting one for two with that "woody" stinger you got off yesterday. I'm in Cal about to head East after a trip up into the redwoods. Let's rendezvous in the near future.


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## oldirty (May 19, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> OD,
> 
> That's okay, you're batting one for two with that "woody" stinger you got off yesterday. I'm in Cal about to head East after a trip up into the redwoods. Let's rendezvous in the near future.



sounds good man.


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## tree md (May 19, 2009)

Mapleman said:


> OD,
> 
> That's okay, you're batting one for two with that "woody" stinger you got off yesterday. I'm in Cal about to head East after a trip up into the redwoods. Let's rendezvous in the near future.



I vacationed in Sanoma, County back in 07. My aunt has a place at Sea Ranch. We drove up into Mendocino County, Gualala, through the wine country and into Redwoods forest. I got to see a 60 year old climber piece out a Redwood at Sea Ranch. He put on quite a show. I had footage of a large crane job I did on my video camera and shared it with him and talked to him awhile. I told him of this website and invited him to join but I don't think he's ever got on the web. 

Hell of a trip. One of the most beautiful places I've been to.


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## treevet (May 19, 2009)

If you're a treeman you gotta visit the redwoods. I took my family there years ago and it was incredible. 

Why is there so much storm damage? Trees were taken out of the forest setting and they lost protection and evolved into different architecture IMO and others.


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## treeseer (May 19, 2009)

treevet said:


> I have seen many judiciously left stubs that have sprouted in abundance carry decay back into the parent stem. This is the main thing we need to avoid.


Exactly--that is why removing back to the parent is usually wrong, because that wound hollows out the parent far wider, faster, and more inevitably than reducing back to the first good node.

Maple I hear you on climate--Gilman's zone 9 experience has to be translated to apply to zone 7, and zone 7 experience for you in zone 4 or whatever. But the basic principles and processes are the same--decay rots stems more than branches because there is more heartwood. So avoiding the exposure of heartwood is indeed a hard and fast rule, from Canada to the Caribbean.

I've seen trees in Minnesota and WI recover from topping, and succumb to decay from removal cuts. "Stubs are sugar sticks--Don't leave them" is often good advice, when regrowth is unlikely to be adequate. But Shigo was not talking about damaged limbs, so that cannot applied as a general rule, or it is dogma like the 1/3 guideline/"Rule".


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## treevet (May 19, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Exactly--that is why removing back to the parent is usually wrong, because that wound hollows out the parent far wider, faster, and more inevitably than reducing back to the first good node.
> 
> BUT.....glad we agree to use the one third rule as a guideline for predominance of decisions. You are wrong on the Shigo interpretation. I have been with Shigo when we discussed storm damage. Dogma goes both ways (your fave word).
> 
> ...


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 19, 2009)

I do not mistake wound closure for compartmentalization, it is the fourth component of Shigo's model.

What many forget is that his studies were from a very long time ago, and there are others who have built on his legacy. Gilman's studies show that compartmentalization is facilitated by proximity of dynamic mass. Since having leaves near the wound helps the compartmentalization process, ergo a sprouting stub should compartmentalize better then a collar wound on a trunk.

Guy's anecdote with topping vs limbing is a good example, the smaller cut near a node will flush out and "feed" the chemical changes that constitute the other three barriers in the CODIT model.

I recall in one Shigo's writings that he conceded the option of leaving stubs might be better for the tree, but that it is impractical for a tree worker to return and trim all the stubs out. My library is in the attic, so I cannot dig though and find the chapter and verse.


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## treevet (May 19, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I do not mistake wound closure for compartmentalization, it is the fourth component of Shigo's model.
> 
> My library is in the attic, so I cannot dig though and find the chapter and verse.



Time to take the books out of the attic and dust them off Sanborn. The 4th wall, the barrier zone is a separating boundary between wood present at the time of wounding and wood that continues to form after wounding.

"Closure and compartmentalization are 2 different processes" Tree Pruning, Shigo, Pages 22 and 23 (along with a myriad of other excerpts in his other books).

If Wall 4 was woundwood then trees would be falling all over houses, streets, people etc., while waiting for closure/sealing but too late to stop opportunistic decay causing microorganisms.

Heartwood is not a non reactive tissue (excuse double neg). It discolors and forms discolored boundaries when penetrated by wounds. (Shigo) This is why I can see the transition area between the NTP cut that has/had no living tissue forming a barrier zone that resists the spread of decay separating the wood present at the time of the wound from the new wood. There are other components to this zone.

A great amount of the older literature contains a great amount of useful information. Being unaware of the older literature has led some people to making the same old mistakes and for others, it has meant the attempt to rediscover the wheel. (another Shigo quote)

I think a couple of phrases such as "Shigo's research" and "Gilman's studies" are worthy to note. Is anyone doing research of the nature of Shigo anymore that takes years and even decades to decipher?


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## treeseer (May 19, 2009)

treevet said:


> Heartwood is not a non reactive tissue (excuse double neg). It discolors and forms discolored boundaries when penetrated by wounds.


This process does occur, to some extent. But it is rarely enough to avoid heartrot and hollowing in many large cuts--we have all seen huge, fatal hollows from big branch removal. Hence the need to avoid large cuts, hence the need to make smaller cuts, even if they are back to a place where a lateral has been shed long ago.



> glad we agree to use the one third rule as a guideline for predominance of decisions.


 We never agreed on that. The 1/3 GUIDELINE is 1 of at least 8 factors considered, along with:

1.	Foundation. Cutting back to 100% sound wood is preferred. Some decay is tolerable if it is being walled off on the inside by black lines of wood preservative, and on the outside by callus—“scar”--tissue.
2.	Vitality. Color, brightness, quality of buds, and growth rate show vitality.
3. Size of wound. The smaller, the sooner it will close and the less it will decay.
4.	Thickness of “collar” at branch defense zone. The more incipient callus tissue there is, the sooner it will close. 
5.	Angle of attachment. A large lateral growing at a 90 degree angle may develop a “hollow elbow”, and not be very stable. 
6.	Angle of cut. Sloping cuts capture less spores, and shaded cuts are less likely to crack and decay.
7.	Space to grow into and mature. 
8.	Size. One-third the diameter of the parent branch is a common guideline, sometimes exaggerated into “The One-Third Rule”, but size does not always matter more than the other criteria.


"...proper crown reduction is done at nodes OR crotches. So the first separation must be nodes-good, internodes-bad." (A New Tree Biology) 

tv if you check the archives here you will see all this hashed out years ago, with Mike Maas in your role.

Diligent aftercare is desirable, but not necessary. ALL these predictions of annual/biannual maintenance needs are exaggerations made by people who do not prune trees. One visit five years later addresses most of the restoration needs of fixing codoms and sprawl. Get the tree owner to sign off on that, do it right that one time, and let the tree take care of the rest.


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## tree md (May 19, 2009)

This has turned into a very good thread. Most educational discussion I have read on here in some time. I'm enjoying the discussion. opcorn:


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## treevet (May 19, 2009)

treeseer said:


> I've had 10' long stubs 12" dia come back fine--well, okay, anyway. I've had others not come back well, but formed a collar to cut back to, where there was none before.
> 
> and gilman's recent work in the same vein..and also a recent one looking at nodal vs. internodal pruning.



Very entertaining filibuster above, your previous post. But, what I am referring to is the opinion you put forth above.

A 10 foot STUB that is 12" diameter is my issue as a candidate to be left in the canopy. IMO it is a magnet for successions of decay causing orgs and they will likely have more access to the structural parent LEFT rather than removed in a more timely fashion (so compart. can begin immediately).

You like to quote Gilman........"In addition, if you cut back a stem to a living side branch less than 1/3 the size of the cut stem or if you cut back to a bud, then the cut is considered a "HEADING CUT"

.....HEADING older tissue is not recommended because it can initiate decay and cracks in the cut stem and ruins tree structure." (pgs 56 and 59, An Illustrated Guide to Pruning, 2nd Ed., Edward F. Gilman

PS. I have played this role and you have played your role in this and many other rehashed threads as well. It is what we do.


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## Bigus Termitius (May 19, 2009)

tree md said:


> This has turned into a very good thread. Most educational discussion I have read on here in some time. I'm enjoying the discussion. opcorn:



you beat me to it..


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## oldirty (May 19, 2009)

indeed. its good to hear this knowledge coming from some of these guys and i thank you for the effort.


ok. serious question. what would be the difference between a topping cut and limb getting torn in half from wind or broken in ice?


i mean from what i am reading and the pics storm "reparation" and topping look awfully similar. 

please help this simple mind wrap itself around that question.


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## treeseer (May 20, 2009)

oldirty said:


> ok. serious question. what would be the difference between a topping cut and limb getting torn in half from wind or broken in ice?



serious answer: When the limb is torn by a storm, the arborist's role is to restore the crown by the best means possible. First step is crown cleaning, removing damaged tissue back to the first good node. 

When an undamaged limb is topped with that same cut at that same node (for the sake of argument), there is no biological difference to that one branch. IF all the other limbs are topped, the tree has a harder time recovering than if a storm breaks some. Storms typically leave more crown than toppers.

When a damaged limb is cut back to its origin, the arborist avoids making a "heading cut" while she takes away resources that the tree has stored for its use, and opens a much larger wound, and "ruin(s) tree structure" far worse than nature did. 

Look again at the exposed pic, and show me where you think the cuts should be made. Cmon Dave you can work Paint. Hint--all those "heading cuts" are completely closed or nearly so after five years. All "Rules" aside, this proves the ANSI standard, that heading cuts can be proper.

Note that Gilman does not impose the "1/3 Rule" on damaged trees--normal rules do not apply to those abnormal conditions.

"Sprouts should be allowed to grow for several years without pruning so energy reserves can be replaced!" (Gilman's website) Note that this truism contradicts that "you gotta get back early and often" nonsense.


http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/restore.html

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/stormsdetail2.html

Attached are 2 pics of big (>12" at the base) broken limbs that came back well. They did not sprout for two years, but now are growing out, and, fueled by photosynthesis, are closing the cuts FAR better than wounds at the origin would be able to, because they would be fueled only by depleted reserves.

The "sugar stick" scenario applies better to branches that died naturally, with a collar that is bypassed. If compartmentalizaton (i spelled it out just for you tv :angel: ) is taking place at the cut end of a damaged branch, the sweetness throughout is still protected from decay.

If codit fails, the limb is further reduced, maybe to the origin, at the 5-year cycle. The tree takes this time to reallocate stored resources, and the goal is for the cut to be made before rot accelerates.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 20, 2009)

> If Wall 4 was woundwood then trees would be falling all over houses, streets, people etc., while waiting for closure/sealing but too late to stop opportunistic decay causing microorganisms.



I should have said that closure is part of wall four; that being all the new xylem produced after the wounding event.



> i mean from what i am reading and the pics storm "reparation" and topping look awfully similar.



As guy says there is not difference, if all cuts are equal. They both utilize a trees natural response to stem/limb loss. The only difference between a cut and a break is that the cut is cleaner, and has less surface area for the potential wound court. 

Proper pruning takes into consideration the way a tree grows, in the case of "reparation" pruning, then we want to allow the tree to grow as it naturally would under the conditions without adding the additional stress of lopping every broken branch back to origin. 



> If codit fails, the limb is further reduced, maybe to the origin, at the 5-year cycle. The tree takes this time to reallocate stored resources, and the goal is for the cut to be made before rot accelerates.



This is the basis of my reluctance to make every cut a collar cut. Most stubs will flush out to some extant, adding to the available energy for the chemical changes that most of CODIT really is. Very few species will drop these stubs in less then five years if the tree sheds them from lack of production. Once the cut is made, the tree is stuck with that wound; if the tree "wants" to shed it, then it can compartmentalize the limb in a more natural way. Some recent studies have shown that the CODIT event actually extends farther out into the limb then the collar, discolored wood in a cone shape.

That all said, it is is just a few limbs that need removal, and there is sufficient dynamic mass near by, I see no need to set the customer up for another visit. That is, unless you will be there in 3-4 years anyways as part of your normal pruning schedule.

For the past few years I have been leaving stubs on large limb removals when on my clients revolving accounts, especially in older trees that are in a state of dynamic equilibrium where we are concerned that any pruning may shift them into senescence.


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## TreeClimber57 (May 20, 2009)

tree md said:


> This has turned into a very good thread. Most educational discussion I have read on here in some time. I'm enjoying the discussion. opcorn:



I agree. A lot of good info, and a lot of work that personally I have never experienced. I have worked some high wind damage (but nothing like the 'canes of the southern U.S.), a half dozen tornado's and as many ice storms (one fairly large one about 10 years ago).

But this is excellent, good input from all. I have been sitting back, and simply enjoying.


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## treeseer (May 20, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Some recent studies have shown that the CODIT event actually extends farther out into the limb then the collar, discolored wood in a cone shape.


I've been observing this, but if there's a un/published study I'd love to have the backup. The line demarking these cones is thick black and shiny--lotsa phenols or whateveryoucallem.

Here's a recent journal work on reduction pruning (free for the searching from ISA); some results applicable to this thread.

http://auf.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=3013&volume=33&issue=5&Type=1

o and a look at white oak's response to heading vs. "1/3 Rule" cutting back to the origin. pics 3 yrs after ice. same portion of same tree same size branch damaged. Callus robust on one, poor on the other.

I rest my case. I'm ready to drink a case! 

You see, the fine print in the Natural Target Pruning book admits that there are no collars on codoms. Trouble is, many if not most forks in the upper crown are codom, and not secondary branch forks with collars. Therefore, the "1/3 Rule" never did apply to pruning this part of the tree, storm or no storm!

Yet it has been us treeguys' mantra for decades, allowing for few if any exceptions. 

We gotta read the fine print; we gotta read the tree.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 20, 2009)

> You see, the fine print in the Natural Target Pruning book admits that there are no collars on codoms. Trouble is, many if not most forks in the upper crown are codom, and not secondary branch forks with collars.



And on many large low limbs that are derived from buds contemporaneous with the original terminal. They are just like a codom, down to the conjoined pith.


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## treevet (May 20, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I
> 
> without adding the additional stress of lopping every broken branch back to origin.
> 
> ...



The issue at hand here is "to leave large diameter stubs, or not?" and is it beneficial from the standpoint of "protecting" (aiding compartmentalizing) Wall 4, in the eventuality of..... 1. The big stub dies (then remove it) or 2. The Big stub becomes involved with decay threatening to be a vector into the main/parent stem (then remove it). The beneficial aspect being that it will initiate Wall 4 without exposing the main stem to pathogens if successful (in your scenario) and it puts forth your described "flush" of growth and can become part of a storm compromised canopy. If not successful, it protected the parent stem from infection by this "cone shaped boundary" you describe (that unfortunately will have to be removed/severed if the stub fails).

A few months ago I emailed a contact of mine that is lead researcher on EAB at Ohio State U. and told him I suspected EAB in an ash. The signs were there.... in the top (important...top, where they start) of the canopy borer holes that might have a vague d shape to them. The tree had storm damage a week ago and limbs were hanging all over it. After digging around in a sample with a knife and not finding any EAB larvae I contacted him and he told me he felt it was a bark beetle attacking a weakened tree. I said this tree was broken up just a week ago and was perfectly healthy prior to this damage (also leading me to suspect EAB which attack completely healthy trees).

I asked him could these insects recognize a weakened system just a few days after it happened. His answer was yes (a researcher mind you). As for EAB, I have found that they can sense weakened trees (they go after them even more than a healthy one that they will also attack) by an "odor emitted by the phloem" according to research. How do decay causing orgs recognize a weakened system and is the more weakened system (stub as opposed to parent) attacked in priority. I would think so. If a tree is injured....it is infected. Parts of trees are obviously attacked preferentially.

I am sure that decay causing orgs are on a weakened system, such as a stub "right now" after injury and successions of attack begin. Much more than a vital branch cut back or broken in the one third parameter. Also in most instances the big stub will be on a mature or over mature tree "in a state of dynamic equilibrium" with lower energy reserves to begin with (for compartmentalization which is where this energy comes from).

The obtaining a "flush" of growth or aiding the tree in the formation of Wall 4 (which you will cut into if the stub dies) is the wrong reason to leave these stubs IMO and has no basis in research. Especially if you 2 are advocating ignoring the thing for years. The WHOLE consideration is decay. And as Gilman says, decay will enter the stub and cracking will occur (just like in topping/heading cuts caused by ram's horns I assume). The cracking will further aid in the entrance of decay causing orgs. 

I think your standard practice (for the past few years) of leaving big stubs on mature trees when you feel they are in "a state of dynamic equilibrium" because you feel removing the large diameter, short stub will "make them grow old?" (Webster's....senescence) is misguided IMHO.

Physiological health is no more important consideration than structural integrity in keeping a tree alive (maybe less with targets in proximity). I would opt to remove the big dia stub "most" of the time.....but not always.

About 6 years ago I had a 510 year old Bur oak leader fall on a residence when a cable I did not install failed when hit with a downshear. An 18 ton crane blew black smoke when I attempted to get it off the roof. When in the tree I found that 3 more co doms had separated and 1 was looming 140 feet above the middle of the already partly crushed house. I brought in a 55 ton crane and we cut the tree in half to laterals, not even snapping one twig of 1 lateral on large diameter cut backs. The tree has a massive,lush regenerated canopy but I have not gotten the client to pay me to check decay or maintain the sprouts and laterals (like I had them initially agree to do) and I am not doing it for free. My guess is I will find a lot of decay in the canopy. Wish I could report on it. It was a 10 thousand dollar job and I risked my life doing it (more than ever before). If anyone wants a picture I will oblige.

I think it is of value to correct, again, in this thread, the improper usage of the acronym "CODIT" which is a "model for compartmentalization" and not a biological process. Compartmentalization takes a few more finger strikes, but it is the right thing to do.


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## oldirty (May 21, 2009)

any chance we can do this more often? this sharing of legit tree bs? good stuff. all these big words got me beating up wikipedia. 

thanks for the pics too. hey treevet, start a thread with the pics of that job on that big ol bur oak. i'd like to see.

i'm a little scared of senescence myself.

and just to clear this up in my mind. node. up in the canopy on the smoother bark on a limb. that would be the bump in the wood that you can feel on the surface, right? thats where you'd "stub" it? first good spot after the break?


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## treevet (May 21, 2009)

oldirty said:


> any chance we can do this more often? this sharing of legit tree bs? good stuff. all these big words got me beating up wikipedia.
> 
> thanks for the pics too. hey treevet, start a thread with the pics of that job on that big ol bur oak. i'd like to see.
> 
> ...



Man, OD, I think it is fantastic that you are interested. You might want to pick up the "Dictionary of Arboriculture" or Treeseer can give you a link to the online version. He was involved in development of the dict.

Another source is "A New Tree Biology Dictionary" by Alex Shigo and....from that...

"Nodes and internodes...A node is the position on a stem or trunk that was occupied by the terminal bud and its associated buds. After the terminal bud develops and a new terminal bud forms at the tip of the stem, the stem tissues between the position of the old terminal bud and the new terminal bud is called the internode; the stem between the nodes..........."


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## oldirty (May 21, 2009)

treevet said:


> Man, OD, I think it is fantastic that you are interested. "



can't try and pretend to be the reaper for ever. thats not the only gig in this game plus the more you can do the more you can earn, that and all this rope climbing ive been doing the past couple years has led me to a different tree respect. i kinda want to know whats up with what i am doing now. 

but if you pull out the hand snips and tell me we have an arborvitae hedge that is surrounding the yard and we need to beat it back and take 3ft out of it, i'll be in the truck taking a nap. wake me up when you take lunch so i can clean up your mess.

edit: thanks for the reading recommendations.


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## stihlhere (May 21, 2009)

*not to interupt but*

1st :jawdrop: really enjoyed that wating for more. 
recently removed hollow limb from pin oak the decay had just reached the trunk at the top of limb, limb being about 12 at collar with decay 1inch in and occupying 50% of top of top of collar. what can be done if any to aid in healing or at this point is it to late? sorry to interupt just trying to learn.


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## tree md (May 21, 2009)

treevet said:


> Man, OD, I think it is fantastic that you are interested. You might want to pick up the "Dictionary of Arboriculture" or Treeseer can give you a link to the online version. He was involved in development of the dict.
> 
> Another source is "A New Tree Biology Dictionary" by Alex Shigo and....from that...
> 
> "Nodes and internodes...A node is the position on a stem or trunk that was occupied by the terminal bud and its associated buds. After the terminal bud develops and a new terminal bud forms at the tip of the stem, the stem tissues between the position of the old terminal bud and the new terminal bud is called the internode; the stem between the nodes..........."



I'd rep you if I could TV but I got to spread some around first. Same goes for you Guy.

I'm going to take some pics this week of some pruning I have done on a tree over the past 5 years or so. Every cut I have made has completely calloused over within 5 years except for the recent storm damage repair I have done. I could use some advice on how to proceed. I left some large stubs because the trees lost at or near 1/3 of crown and all have resprouted. I figured it would be better to leave something for regrowth than to take too much out of an already stressed tree. Looking forward to some advice. Great input from the arborists!


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## treeseer (May 21, 2009)

stihlhere and all the way to keep this going is to take and post pictures. i'll put up more of former misnamed "sugar sticks" that have totally closed over, but first let's see some from you all.

Dave I totally believe in/agree with the odor-attractant thing but please tell me how an 8" cut on the end of a branch will bring in more rot than a 12" cut at the origin, which has lots more aromatic phloem and double the infection court. Those cuts lead to far more cracking, and make the whole trunk "sugar". I think the pics indicate that, as Gilman agrees, heading cuts are often the way to go on damaged trees.

I'm still waiting for your instructions on how that tree should have been pruned. You can use Paint or whatever. here it is attached again for your convenience. 

re clients, it took a while for that oak's owners to get us back for restoration, after a few gentle reminders. I was ready to reclimb it and take the pics for free but thankfully got paid for restoring the tree. one visit 5 years later, done until ~2013, normal pruning cycle.

OD re nodes, look closely at the trees. the article spells out the signs: bumps, bulges, bends etc. re hand pruners on hedges, that's a good idea for another thread. Post Pictures. for general reading material--just use the search function here http://www.isa-arbor.com/members/joaOpenAccess.aspx The dictionary/glossary is in the site too--it's free even for nonmembers who badmouth ISA without looking to see what it is all about.

TCI is not as deep or as well archived but look for April 2003 http://www.treecareindustry.org/Public/pubs_tci_magazine.htm

Post pictures. If they are awesome they may earn $25 and eternal fame when and if the followup article is printed. Later this year I hope.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 21, 2009)

oldirty said:


> any chance we can do this more often? this sharing of legit tree bs? good stuff. all these big words got me beating up wikipedia.
> 
> thanks for the pics too. hey treevet, start a thread with the pics of that job on that big ol bur oak. i'd like to see.
> 
> ...



I would prefer to say "head back" for most cases, unless it is a secondary branching with no obvious collar.

You've been infected with the disease of fascination, my friend! It has transcended from a job to a vocation, now there is a little voice in your head calling you to actually look at the trees. Soon you will come to see it not as your trade, but your Profession. Next thing you know, you will not have anyone to talk to at parties, because all you talk about is trees.


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## treevet (May 21, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Dave I totally believe in/agree with the odor-attractant thing but please tell me how an 8" cut on the end of a branch will bring in more rot than a 12" cut at the origin, which has lots more aromatic phloem and double the infection court. Those cuts lead to far more cracking, and make the whole trunk "sugar". I think the pics indicate that, as Gilman agrees, heading cuts are often the way to go on damaged trees.
> 
> I'm still waiting for your instructions on how that tree should have been pruned. You can use Paint or whatever. here it is attached again for your convenience.
> 
> ...



I think the odor attractant is of quality and not of quantity. I think this odor of the phloem indicates a system/limb/stub in decline and therefore low resistance in the walls of compartmentalization. This is conjecture, even with researchers, there is so much we do not understand about trees.

You keep pressing me to comment on your pruning that, I believe you and Sanborn did. This has no relevance to the 12" dia stub that you both advocate leaving and later ignoring (even tho it may have flush growth they are usually found to be involved with decay). If I have to it, at first glance appears to me that you took TOO MUCH off and not too little as you assumed I would say. Maybe it is because you are a 60 year climber (like me) and Sanborn is a giant climber. Or maybe lighter cuts were not accessible to any climber. My inclination would be to use a bucket to make those lighter cuts possible and at the same have better access to appropriate angles for the ntp cuts.

As for the node issue....it is obvious to anyone who ever pruned large trees that the larger the dia stubs you are leaving the more difficult, under most circumstances, it is to even recognize a node.


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## BlackenedTimber (May 21, 2009)

It has been said, but this is a great post. Really helps the time pass at the ol' Batch Plant in the nowhere West Virginia.


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## oldirty (May 21, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I would prefer to say "head back" for most cases, unless it is a secondary branching with no obvious collar.
> 
> You've been infected with the disease of fascination, my friend! It has transcended from a job to a vocation, now there is a little voice in your head calling you to actually look at the trees. Soon you will come to see it not as your trade, but your Profession. Next thing you know, you will not have anyone to talk to at parties, because all you talk about is trees.



i already love the game jp. truly and deeply. but its the not knowing part that is killing me. gonna work on that.

good thread boys!


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## treeseer (May 21, 2009)

Dave you are throwing out a lot of good theoretical responses, but look at those white oak pictures. Ten tons of anthropogenic theory do not outweigh that evidence of the tree's own responses, and preferences.

Treesponses. Hmm...



treevet said:


> I think the odor attractant is of quality and not of quantity. I think this odor of the phloem indicates a system/limb/stub in decline and therefore low resistance in the walls of compartmentalization. This is conjecture, even with researchers, there is so much we do not understand about trees.


 That's for sure; a pound of conjecture plus $.75 will buy you a newspaper. Plus, the cut ends would not emit the "decline" pheromone, because the trees are not in decline pre-storm.


> the 12" dia stub that you both advocate leaving and later ignoring (even tho it may have flush growth they are usually found to be involved with decay).


Sure, but a lot of wood is 'involved with decay" that has no significant impact on its strength, now or ever.


> As for the node issue....it is obvious to anyone who ever pruned large trees that the larger the dia stubs you are leaving the more difficult, under most circumstances, it is to even recognize a node.


Yes, very true, so thank you for providing another good reason to cut back damaged branches at the smallest possible diameter, the first good node. 

To reply more directly--yes, older limbs obscure the signs, but take a hand lens along and look closely where you see the bumps bulges and wrinkles you will often see the actual dormant bud, on the surface. attached pics--last until you show yours!! Rougher textured bark will hide them and it may take years but those buds or buds elsewhere can release and start the whole magical process of photosynthesis. 

When a large limb is shortened and its resources are reallocated, sprouts grow and add new resources. The limb may not look like much, but if it is functioning it is compartmentalizing and that is a much better thing than removing to the origin and opening the heart of the tree to invasion by solar radiation and evapotranspirational dessication and insects and disease and lions and tigers and bears, o my!

Unless you are out to create coon habitat, big stem wounds are B-A-D.

JPS does this sound like an old chat with a MM cheeser?

tv, post your pics of your 12" stem wounds that callused over. then we will have something to talk about.

attached pics courtesy of Jim Scarlata, who stepped up when others conjectured.  Look at the little dimple on the outside in pic 1, then look at the pith trail and compacted xylem on the inside. that is a dormant bud, geared up and ready to roll. 

:lifter:


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## oldirty (May 21, 2009)

i knew it man! those little bumps that you can feel in the wood! lol


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## treeseer (May 22, 2009)

oldirty said:


> i knew it man! those little bumps that you can feel in the wood! lol


isn't the picture clear enough? Try zooming in.


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## treevet (May 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> evapotranspirational dessication
> 
> JPS does this sound like an old chat with a MM cheeser?
> 
> 12" stem wounds that callused over.



DID YOU SAY ....EVAPOTRANSPIRATIONAL DESSICATION???? Now, I don't know what you 2 conspirators in corniness have against Mike Maas but this is world class CHEESEY now isn't it? Not only is this cheesey, Guy, it is redundant as well. You and your partner in giant stub retention without remorse, Mr. Sanborn just love to use the $49.99 words to feign knowledge. Let's just say DRY OUT in the future.

If we are going to mystify people with our word knowledge, then maybe we should get the other, non mind boggling words right. A 12" stem does not "callus over" but rather at first forms callus and the following is considered woundwood that completes the occlusion of the wound. They are 2 different entities.

Woundwood occlusion on the side of a main stem, as opposed to the end of a giant stub that is retained does not cause cracks when grown into opposing sides. Too much mass to displace.

I do not know this but you 2 must be prolific "tree toppers" if you take pride in your giant stub production. You must not accept the well researched evidence that these topping cuts cause extensive decay and the resultant heavy woundwood (not an indicator of tree health or success of compartmentalization) formation growing into each other on opposing sides causes cracks at the end of these large stub retentions. I could cite you researched proof of this but I think you recently bought the Shigo stuff (although I think you think you know more than this recognized genius and developer of more documented scientific research than anyone in the history of our profession).

I think you both know you are being BAD BOYS and reveling in the pleasure of it all. Your moms likely will give you both a good spanking and send you to your respective rooms if you continue on with this.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 22, 2009)

oldirty said:


> i knew it man! those little bumps that you can feel in the wood! lol



The same ones that help you with a limbwalk.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 22, 2009)

> Not only is this cheesey, Guy, it is redundant as well. You and your partner in giant stub retention without remorse, Mr. Sanborn just love to use the $49.99 words to feign knowledge.



Golly gee, now we get into character assassination. I try to be more precises in my verbiage, so now I'm a pretentious moron?

Here I thought we were having a professional dialog. Yes Guy, this is like talking to Mike can be at time. You do not agree with me, so you are an idiot.  And to think i was actually looking forward to reading this thread.

Shigo's work is not the basis for Modern Arboriculture, but the end-all, be-all. Yeesh!
 
To me this is a science: observe, conjecture, add to the knowledge base and discard, or modify, the old stuff. Old theories can evolve.

Dave, after that hyperbole about tree topping, I'll just "let" you go on *hacking* off big limbs at the trunk.

BTW, senescence is also age related decline, and the study there of. I actually learned it from reading Shigo some fifteen years ago.

Is there someone who would like to have an adult conversation with me and my buddy Guy?


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## treeseer (May 22, 2009)

Dave I agree that callus turns into woundwood as it differentiates and lignifies (sorry but there are no $.49 synonyms), but since this is a gradual transition they are not separate, but blended, entities. I don't follow your veer from pheromones to rams horns--it reads like grasping for theories instead of looking at evidence. If there is useful info from The OSU that would be good to see.

Sorry about the "evapotranspirational dessication"--that was the rum talking. "Drying out" would have been better. I'll avoid that stuff if you stop nitpicking about the usage of "codit".

I'm still waiting for your hard evidence, or a sign that you are gathering data today and not just trying to apply someone else's 20-year old observations to every tree problem. Shigo's Pithy Point #1: "The more you learn about what you are seeking, the better the chances are that you will find it."

Dave, you said you had pics of that bur oak...love to see them!


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## treevet (May 22, 2009)

Was just poking a little oke: having a little fun. I know both of you guys (well er,...a Guy and a JPS) are on your game.

I can take it as well as I can dish it out. There is some content in that post as well as the jabs, along with .....having a little fun. No harm meant.

re. JPS quote


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## treevet (May 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Dave I agree that callus turns into woundwood as it differentiates and lignifies (sorry but there are no $.49 synonyms), but since this is a gradual transition they are not separate, but blended, entities. I don't follow your veer from pheromones to rams horns--it reads like grasping for theories instead of looking at evidence. If there is useful info from The OSU that would be good to see.
> 
> Sorry about the "evapotranspirational dessication"--that was the rum talking. "Drying out" would have been better. I'll avoid that stuff if you stop nitpicking about the usage of "codit".
> 
> ...



I will get a pict or two but the tree has regenerated a canopy so well (we found a canopy under the 140 foot one that was a natural one) that it has completely obscured the cut backs at this time of year.

But again, my issue is not the regeneration of canopy (see topping silver maples) but the accumulation of decay and cracks (see silver maples as well).

Sorry, can't stop with the codit. Haven't even got over you turning it into a pet dog lol.


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## tree MDS (May 22, 2009)

I didnt realize this turned into a such a good thread, so I'm pretty late getting in on it, but this has been very helpfull. Thanks guys.

Like oldirty, I wasnt exactly clear on the node thing. In the ice storm we had last winter I just tried to prune back to sprouts. This helps clarify the node option. thanks again.

I have a customer that has some red oak trees that someone stubbed back (I assume from an ice storm 5 or 6 years ago), I cant remember for certain but there was only minimal sprouting and most of those limbs had several smaller white shelfs of fungus (basidiocarps??) that carried along the branches and down into the main trunk some. Maybe they didnt cut to nodes? I still dont know if that would have helped with the fungus but that had me wondering having read the tci article (somewhat, obviously not thouroughly enough, lol) on storm damage where this was discussed - I cant find the article now but I think its probably in this thread somewhere, I'll go look. 

Anyway, just my two cents and grabbing the popcorn.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 22, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I have a customer that has some red oak trees that someone stubbed back (I assume from an ice storm 5 or 6 years ago), I cant remember for certain but there was only minimal sprouting and most of those limbs had several smaller white shelfs of fungus (basidiocarps??) that carried along the branches and down into the main trunk some. Maybe they didnt cut to nodes?



It could be that the tree had low vitality before the storm, or droughts after (you guys have them there, no?), resulting in poor epidermic regeneration. There is also the species propensity for decay resistance, or lack there of in red oak.



> Was just poking a little having a little fun.



I'll buy that for a dollar.


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## treeseer (May 22, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> some red oak trees that someone stubbed back


 yes generally red oaks are not the most damage-tolerant. How big were the cuts? Enough big breaks on major scaffolds and the tree can't recover, but the 50% crown loss guideline some like to repeat is just total nonsense. No science or experience behind it; they just picked a number. 

The TCI piece was April 2003 and maybe if you nag the editor/webmaster they will get the archive link working. 

It's 4.46 mb, too big to attach here cuz it's chock full of pics. the limit of 1.25 mb is very limiting.

'"my issue is not the regeneration of canopy (see topping silver maples) but the accumulation of decay and cracks"

These issues, like callus and woundwood, are not distinctly separate. Regeneration feeds codit which limits the spread of decay. As for cracks, if cuts have to expose a lot of heartwood, it seems reasonable to experiment with a sealant, to lessen cracking.

Gee that might re-de-rail this thread. Never mind!


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 22, 2009)

> Regeneration feeds codit which limits the spread of decay.



Back to my mention of the Gilman study that showed a correlation between proximity of dynamic mass to the wound and resistance to decay. I think he used young Acer rubrum and an oak. 

It feels right to say that that is where I heard/read about the cone shaped discoloration that passed beyond the collar. Cannot say for certain.


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## treevet (May 22, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I'll buy that for a dollar.



What does that mean, I don't get it?


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## treevet (May 22, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Back to my mention of the Gilman study that showed a correlation between proximity of dynamic mass to the wound and resistance to decay. I think he used young Acer rubrum and an oak.



Could you pls. link this research.


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Dave I agree that callus turns into woundwood as it differentiates and lignifies (sorry but there are no $.49 synonyms), but since this is a gradual transition they are not separate, but blended, entities. I don't follow your veer from pheromones to rams horns--



You have reitterated this point in a later point so I'd like to address it. Callus and woundwood are 2 entirely different entities and not "blended" together.

Callus is undifferented tissue with little or no lignin.
Woundwood is highly ordered wood with lignin.

Since Gilman is your man....Pg. 62....before WOUNDWOOD completely closes over it. 

On the same page "If left on trees, decay beginning in stubs can break through the branch protection zone and move into the trunk, causing trunk rot and creating a potentially weak tree. Do not leave stubs, living or dead, on trees." Please direct me to Dr. Gilman's ad vocation of retaining huge stubs and not even monitoring them.

You are back on your crusade for "tree paint" again. Your man Gilman again...."Several products are marketed as wound dressings. In general, their purchase stimulates only the economy. Some may slow the growth of callus over the wound (note...callus can close small wounds). You should never apply an oil based paint. Wound dressings DO NOT PREVENT CRACKS (pls. note Guy....this is your man), mushrooms or wood rot. There is no scientific evidence that they help the tree close over the pruning wound. Some dressings may even stimulate rot by trapping moisture behind them."

As for veering from pheromones to ram's horns, this was just simply 2 points I felt were relevant that you combined to make it appear that I am grasping at straws. The pheromone point I put forth had to do with the compromised large stub in decline desperately issuing sucker growth and just a semblance of what it previously was being a magnet for decay causing orgs. (just as my example of the waning tree being immediately a target for bark beetles as described by my researcher friend). The trunk would not be waning at this point and may have more time to compartmentalize if you make the ntp cut now and let the boundaries be set. This story is all about opportunistic pathogens and failing systems and mobile protection zones. Literally a battle zone.

As for the ram's horns and resultant cracks ....any experienced arb has seen this and the decay I described in hard cut backs, the most obvious example being the Silver maple which is a prolific sprouter when cut back hard.... which the 2 of you have hitched your wagons to as the instigator of strong compartmentalization (more sprouts equals more compartmentalization IYO).

I have read when a branch (stub) is dying, it moves it stores of carbs back into the main stem. This is where compartmentalization comes from and it is leaving.


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Regeneration feeds codit which limits the spread of decay.



I think regeneration takes away energy, uses energy as opposed to giving it. Photosynthesis gives energy in the form of carbohydrates which are stored and used for compartmentalization.

If a tree has anthracnose, puts out a canopy of foliage, then is defoliated by the disease and has to refoliate.....does it gain energy from this? Nope.....it is drained of some of its energy and susceptible to disease/insects and after a few seasons of this it can become fatal.


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## treeseer (May 23, 2009)

treevet said:


> Could you pls. link this research.


The ISA arboriculture journal is free to all and very easy to search through. I posted that link once in this thread already--try doing it yourself; not hard!

Sorry no time to follow all the conjecture--how about showing pics of your work to illustrate your points?


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

treeseer said:


> The ISA arboriculture journal is free to all and very easy to search through. I posted that link once in this thread already--try doing it yourself; not hard!
> 
> Sorry no time to follow all the conjecture--how about showing pics of your work to illustrate your points?



Hard to show a picture of nothing. Not going to show a tree with the absence of a 12", by 10 foot long stub that you and Sanborn advocate. I have tried to give my side in not retaining them and more than matched the conjecture you have put forth. 

They don't make sense both physiologically and structurally, IMO. But maybe you find them aesthetically appealing. Hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe you 2 like the look of the giant stub in the canopy or maybe even the whole canopy (tree topping advocates too?). To each his own....just stay away from my beautiful natural looking trees.

Let's see a picture of your 12" dia 10 foot long stub in a tree. Maybe I will change my mind........nahhhhht.

Can't play anymore today...we just got hit with huge new discoveries in Cinci. of EAB. Maybe if we just stubbed off all these infested trees, they would make it???


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## Ekka (May 23, 2009)

Until foliage is photosynthesizing you have a drain on resources.

Wall 4 commences with callus growth, then the cells which align with the wounded surface differentiate forming a chemical boundary known as wall 4, remaining cells differentiate to their various purposes.



> During callus growth, remarkable changes take place in the tissue 3-4 weeks after wounding: the outer cells form suberized walls and phenolic substances are deposited in vacuoles. The subsequent callus tissue on the inside is altered into a tangentially oriented belt of flattened cells: the initiation of a phellogen. After 8 weeks, a fully functional wound periderm has formed, consisting of a complete phellogen forming phellem externally and phelloderm internally. The phellem is clearly suberized and contains phenolic substances in its vacuoles. Brown and Sax (1962) observed a similar reorganization in poplar after 2-3 weeks.
> 
> The restructuring of the outer surface callus cells can be compared with the formation of a ligno-suberized layer in the bark formed after wounding (Oven et al., 1999). A necrophylactic periderm develops (Mullick, 1977; Biggs, 1985), which later merges into the original periderm at the rim of the wound. According to Oven et al. (1999), the formation of such a ligno-suberized layer in the bark is a precondition for the growth of a wound periderm. Therefore, restructuring of the outer surface callus as well as the formation of a wound periderm are necessary for continuing surface callus development.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 23, 2009)

> Let's see a picture of your 12" dia 10 foot long stub in a tree.



Guy, can you remember the house we did after the ice storm that had been remodeling for two years? the little old lady next door was out of her mind with the constant disturbance, and refused to let us get the hangers that were in her yard. Her son ad to come over to calm her down and let us in the gate.

It was in the medium high end of Raleigh, she on a corner lot with your client to the right. Small lot/house neighborhood with huge old trees.

The willow oak that we worked on had a 10 ft stub fro the previous storm that was healthy looking and a veritable thicket of epicormic branching (as opposed to sprouts, which are are new growth and succulent. I will refer to these as sprout branches when talking to clientele).

For an anecdotal picture this would be great, if the tree is still there 7 years latter.


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## ddhlakebound (May 23, 2009)

Great thread, probably the best learning thread so far this year, and I'd like to thank you guys for all the knowledge and contemplation that's being discussed here. 

I'm out of my league by a mile, and I know it, but I've gotta ask a few questions to hopefully understand better. 

Alot of this discussion has centered around the time it will take for wall 4 to form and prevent further pathogen entry, but isn't how well wall 1 will block decay from entering the main stem a more important factor to the health of the tree as opposed to the health of the limb in question?

And isn't how wall 1 will respond primiarily determined by species?

Once the wind or ice has broken the limb the decay pathogens will begin their work regardless of wether we do nothing, node trim it, or make a larger cut at the stem. 

So it seems that what we're risking is the growth that occurs between the node trimming cut and how much more new wood we'd have to wound if the limb was removed at it's origin several years later. 

All the wood present at the time of wounding is subject to decay, correct? It's up to the tree to compartmentalize the decay as well as it's able. So if we node trim it, and it resprouts, but then slowly declines and dies, and we must return to make the larger cut at the stem, now we've got all the new growth since the original injury being wounded and subject to a greater amount of potential decay. 

But if the tree can successfully compartmentalize the decay and successfully resprout and maintain growth, we may have kept the decay from reaching the main stem at all. 

I'm having a difficult time seeing how either option could be correct ALL the time. So isn't it up to us to analyze the variables in each individual situation to allow the tree the best chances to keep the largest percentage of it's mass healthy over the longest term possible?


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## treeseer (May 23, 2009)

Dave I already posted 2 pics of healthy growing 10' "stubs" that have minimal decay that is walled off. Now you're asking to see the whole tree so you can assess the aesthetics of it. What next? :rant:

JPS yes i remember the tree; client moved on but I will get a pic thanks for the memory!



ddhlakebound said:


> I'm out of my league by a mile, and I know it,


O I dunno; you seem to understand a lot of it very well!


> isn't how well wall 1 will block decay from entering the main stem a more important factor to the health of the tree as opposed to the health of the limb in question?


Those 2 factors hard to separate in my head; both dependent on same conditions. But yes nothing seems more important than the interior wall


> And isn't how wall 1 will respond primiarily determined by species?


Largely yes but primarily how can we know? Previous condition, energy reserves, quality of future care like root invigoration or root abuse are also key. Gene-driven Anatomy by itself rarely makes or breaks the decision imo.


> Once the wind or ice has broken the limb the decay pathogens will begin their work regardless of wether we do nothing, node trim it, or make a larger cut at the stem.


Yes but the more tissue, especially heartwood, that is exposed, the more rot will happen. The less "sugar" served, the less dining the fungus can do. The smaller the cut the faster the sealing.


> So it seems that what we're risking is the growth that occurs between the node trimming cut and how much more new wood we'd have to wound if the limb was removed at it's origin several years later.


Yes that is a risk, but if the limb has to be shortened later, the damage is less, because the tree will have added tissue where the next cut will be made, so it will close faster.


> All the wood present at the time of wounding is subject to decay, correct?


Wherever the bark is intact, the wood is protected, right? Unless you want to consider endophytic fungi that are always present inside the tree. But that is another thread.


> It's up to the tree to compartmentalize the decay as well as it's able. So if we node trim it, and it resprouts, but then slowly declines and dies,


This happens rarely, <10%, mainly due to shade, and when it does happen typically collar tissue is visibly added to the base.


> and we must return to make the larger cut at the stem, now we've got all the new growth since the original injury being wounded and subject to a greater amount of potential decay.


I don't follow this.


> But if the tree can successfully compartmentalize the decay and successfully resprout and maintain growth, we may have kept the decay from reaching the main stem at all.


Yes this is the goal, which happens >90% of the time.


> isn't it up to us to analyze the variables in each individual situation to allow the tree the best chances to keep the largest percentage of it's mass healthy over the longest term possible?


:agree2:


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 23, 2009)

> I'm having a difficult time seeing how either option could be correct ALL the time.



Exactly, we are not trying to say stub it every time, just that collar cuts most of the time is not good tree.



> Alot of this discussion has centered around the time it will take for wall 4 to form and prevent further pathogen entry..



Not really, the wall four was a side issue. As Dave keeps pointing out CODIT is a model. It is a four dimensional event taking place in this organic cylinder. That is, the 3 dimensions of space we see and time, so we espouse allowing more time and resources for the tree to recover from this catastrophic event. 

Since the chemical reactions that make up walls 1-3 take energy; leaving as much dynamic (photosynthetic) mass near the wound will assist in making these changes. As Dave pointed out, wall four is more then wound closure; it is all the rings, or woody cylinders, that will form later in later years.

The old model assumes that no one will even look at the tree until the next catastrophic event. Our model adopts a philosophy of doing the least harm, and promote tree *management* over tree cutting. The *arborist* informs the owner that this is just the first step in a multi-year program; the next step may be in three to five years.

If the tree appears to have been stressed prior to the storm event, then maybe a recommendation for removal is the best route; but might be put off for a few years for the client to recover if insurance does not cover the this. 

Another problem that we have not brought up is that when you have multiple wounds in a single column, there is a good change of them coalescing over time. this could be as decay courts, or as perpetual cankers.


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## treeseer (May 23, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Exactly, we are not trying to say stub it every time, just that collar cuts most of the time (on storm-damaged trees) is not good tree (care).
> 
> Not really, the wall four was a side issue. As Dave keeps pointing out CODIT is a model. It is a four dimensional event taking place in this organic cylinder. That is, the 3 dimensions of space we see and time, so we espouse allowing more time and resources for the tree to recover from this catastrophic event.
> 
> ...


Excellent points.


> Another problem that we have not brought up is that when you have multiple wounds in a single column, there is a good change of them coalescing over time. this could be as decay courts, or as perpetual cankers.


:agree2:Totally. These cankers occur most often on storm-damaged trees that get sunscald, like beech and other thin-barked species. All the more reason to preserve
as much crown as possible for as long as possible until the tree recovers.


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## Ekka (May 23, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> but isn't how well wall 1 will block decay from entering the main stem a more important factor to the health of the tree as opposed to the health of the limb in question?
> 
> And isn't how wall 1 will respond primiarily determined by species?



Guys answer,


> Gene-driven Anatomy by itself rarely makes or breaks the decision imo.



Some clarification .....

Wall1: Vascular system shut down to prevent vertical infection, *weakest wall of them all.*

Wall2: Heartwood prevents inward progression of decay.

Wall3: Rays prevent radial progression of decay.

Wall4: _Wall 4 is a future boundary in the xylem created by cambium responding to signals of wounding with cells that are significantly more resistant to decay than the earlier xylem (Bob Wulkowicz 28th August 2008)._ Chemically altered cells which grew over the wound separating tissue present at time of wounding from new tissue. Where there is no cambial growth there is no wall4.

Species and gene driven anatomy makes all the difference! :monkey:


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> Great thread, probably the best learning thread so far this year, and I'd like to thank you guys for all the knowledge and contemplation that's being discussed here.
> 
> I'm out of my league by a mile, and I know it, but I've gotta ask a few questions to hopefully understand better.
> 
> ...



That is a very thoughtful post. Most noticeable is the fact that the very large, very much abbreviated stub will have to be removed later and the walls will have to be re established. Also the loss of potential woundwood that would have occurred in the interum if the parent cut was made initially. Also I do not agree with the correlation between sprouting and compartmentalization. I have seen many large diameter stubs incur decay regardless of the amount of sprouts or success of laterals and this is a vector into the main stem that would otherwise have been protected by wall 4, etc. and has not had the means to form them with the stub still attached.

I think a highly compromised limb/leader (12" by 10 foot lgth) will be failing regardless of sprouting and therefore the walls (or some kind of cone Sanborn describes) will be weak and failing/shifting in nature.

There are of course exceptions to every rule. But Sanborn and Meilleur are advocating leaving these giant stubs all the time and not monitoring them. I see that is unprofessional and irresponsible.

It reminds me of the new appearance on some of the forums by posters of advocating indiscriminant tree topping and calling it pollarding, 2 vastly different treatments.

"To keep the largest percentage of it's mass healthy over the longest term possible?" I think not as I said earlier that decay or structural risk can be a larger issue than physiological health if targets abound. If they did not, we probably don't get the call anyway.


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Until foliage is photosynthesizing you have a drain on resources.
> 
> Wall 4 commences with callus growth, then the cells which align with the wounded surface differentiate forming a chemical boundary known as wall 4, remaining cells differentiate to their various purposes.



excellent post, fantastic diagram and pict.


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Exactly, we are not trying to say stub it every time, just that collar cuts most of the time is not good tree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This post is different than what I thought your opinion was. I agree with a lot of what is said here. Also a concession that removal (eek) may be in the cards in the future sometimes. I think Guy wants to leave the big stub and not monitor it most (over 90%) of the time.


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## treevet (May 23, 2009)

We have discussed extensively the trees reaction to wounding and I thought I would venture a little info on the pathogen side of the equation......

SUCCESSIONS:

"Succession is an orderly sequence of microorganisms that invade a tree. There are no set patterns for successions. Many factors will affect successional patterns: tree species, wound type, wound position, wound treatment, time of year of wound, species of microorganisms in the area and their numbers, temperature and many other environmental factore.

Succession means that many microorganisms are associated in discoloration and decay of wood. Some pioneers may speed invasion, while others may slow its development. Microorganisms do not prepare a place for others. When they are able to colonize an area, they usually alter it to suit their survival. A habitat is where you can live and survive. A niche is the habitat, or portion of it, that has been altered as a result of an organism or organisms living in it. The alterations usually enhance the protection of the organisms., thus increasing the chances for the development of defects in trees. Experiments with inoculation of the fungus, Trichoderma harzianum showed that under some conditions, the decay process could be temporily stalled."

This is from Shigo's Modern Arboriculture.

I would choose to add to the end of the first paragraph the need for moisture because of it's importance. I have read where decay orgs will stall with lack of moisture and wait, because they have altered the shape and content (delignified wood) so it is capable to hold more moisture than previously and then they will proceed with abandon when moisture accumulates.


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## Ekka (May 23, 2009)

There doesn't appear to be much difference in the regrowth from a nodal cut to an inter-nodal cut IMHO.

Both cuts push out a lot more than 1 new shoot from 1 bud. Both cuts require returning to thin out the suckers and manage a strong one or two.

When I prune roses to a node I get one new stem growing, I can even determine the direction that stems grow by cutting to say an outward facing bud ... that's how you prune roses and things like hibiscus. I feel that the inclusion of the terminology "nodes" as a target point was introduced to satisfy the whims of a broad spectrum of horticultural people. Sure trees have nodes on pencil sized stems in the nursery however in large established trees where we are talking about cutting 4" dia+ branches the practice has been skewed to fubar to satisfy some academic reasoning..... not saying that nodes do not exist just that cutting to them evokes about the same problems and management as a straight forward topping!

Those trees in your pictures Guy look like round over topping jobs, those re-established canopies you see on the ice work trees same, argue what you like but I'm not the only skeptic. We are yet to be presented with a good sample of disected nodal cuts and topping cuts 3 years and 5 years afterwards, disected on both axis to see the difference.

In the recent storms here many eucs lost their tops, those where all leaders etc were broken were removed. What are you going to do, have 50 epicormic shoots growing from every cut to manage on a grand scale of 1000's of park trees? 

I can see the use of this for crown restoration on selected trees but on a grand scale you might want to bring in an orchard pruning machine and clean cut the trees en-mass, end result would be about the same.

The sprouts you both herald as the decay savers only feed the vascular cambium, so the heartwood remains as unprotected as before. Sprouts do accelerate sealing of the wound though, so stub ends will grow over faster with sprouts than without, but many times sprouts die within 3 years too and you'll be left with a huge advertising sign "yo bugs, mega banquet here". 

Sprouts also occasionally emerge near target cuts, it's suggested by many experts to leave them as they once again speed up the sealing process, however they do need to be managed, I'll see if I can get some pictures.


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## treeseer (May 23, 2009)

treevet said:


> Most noticeable is the fact that the very large, very much abbreviated stub will have to be removed later and the walls will have to be re established.


Fact? Consider the evidence of 2 big stubs that sprouted and are sealing. That is visible "fact". Please cite your reference.


> I have seen many large diameter stubs incur decay regardless of the amount of sprouts or success of laterals and this is a vector into the main stem...
> I think a highly compromised limb/leader (12" by 10 foot lgth) will be failing regardless of sprouting and therefore the walls (or some kind of cone Sanborn describes) will be weak and failing/shifting in nature.


We all have seen big leaders fail as part of whole tree decline; different animal than reparable storm damage. Please support your opinion. The reality is in the pics. The vector may be shut off. Your faith in the force of fungus, and lack of belief in trees' ability to wall off decay, is surprising, coming from an arborist. 


> There are of course exceptions to every rule. But Sanborn and Meilleur are advocating leaving these giant stubs all the time and not monitoring them.


Please cite your reference. That is not an accurate statement.


> Guy wants to leave the big stub and not monitor it most (over 90%) of the time.


Please cite your reference. That is not an accurate statement.


> ...decay or structural risk can be a larger issue than physiological health if targets abound.


Every structure has risk, so that reference is not clear. As for decay, it is not inevitably infinite--trees can wall it off until they die long after, of other causes. Physiological processes-photosynthesis, metabolism, etc.--fuel, or don't fuel, anatomical changes. So, a species' genetically determined anatomy is not often the primary consideration.

"Wall2: Heartwood prevents inward progression of decay." To clarify: heartwood may resist decay somewhat (and not as well as sapwood in most cases), but often fails to prevent it. You've seen big branch wounds turn into coon hollows, right? Extra heartwood should not be exposed by excessive cuts. :chainsawguy:

As for more pics of dissections, below is a 3-year piece. I'll see if I can go up and sacrifice a healthy limb to provide 5-no, 7-year evidence. Read Arbor Age's next issue to see them.

Dave since you doubt JPS, attached pic is a cone-shaped wall of codit that was failing, so the branch had to be reduced further. Photosynthesis fueled tissue growth around and below that sprout. The second cut was made at a node that is 1. *Below the decay* and 2. faster to close, thanks to tissue that was added in the interim.

"There doesn't appear to be much difference in the regrowth from a nodal cut to an inter-nodal cut IMHO."

ok--when you are unfamiliar with non-Australian trees, that is one more disadvantage. see the second attached--the internodal break does not sprout at all; the stub dies back to the node behind it, while dormant buds release there. This growth is more vigorous and better attached than growth from newly formed buds in the internode would be. 


ddhlakehound are you cool with this? :monkey:?


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## Ekka (May 24, 2009)

You need to compare this picture to a same aged, same species, same sized cut picture of equivalent dissected topping cut (with a sprout) .... mind you to me it appears no different and if it's so called attachment to the pith was so crucial in determining it's superiority as a node it sure didn't make an iota of difference to decay and attachment did it!

If you dissected a normal stub cut the decay would look the same, your picture is a folly, proved nothing! :monkey:

Oh, I oriented the picture correctly so we don't all get a stomach ache. LOL






Now lets deal with the next picture.

Often when there's breakages branches do die back to the next branch etc.

Are you suggesting in this picture that all the branches marked with a red dot grew after the event? I suspect they were already there and the broken branch died back to that point, typical and normal.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 24, 2009)

This looks like the decay patter of a heading cut. What I am referring to is the discolored wood found in a primary branch being naturally shed at the collar. I'm not having any luck finding citations, I think the seminar I saw the presentation at was several years ago.

Dave, I'm glad i found the words to convince you, was it just reducing the syllable count? 

My reasoning all boils down to what is best for the tree *now* and what is best for the client and their overall situation. I was doing storm work; making my textbook collar cuts, and looking at the end results thinking that this cannot be good for anyone in the long term. Multiple collar cuts on the stem would result in a weakening of the stem.

It seems to me that no matter what we will have decay courts in the tree after reparation; consequently, it would be better to have the decay courts out on branches and limbs then in the trunks and stems. I never said that there would *not* be any decay resulting from a nodal cut, just that the tree would be better able to tolerate it in the long term. 



> Also a concession that removal (eek) may be in the cards in the future sometimes.



Severe storm damage often reduces the serviceable life (the SULE concept) of a tree in the landscape, it is my feeling that multiple collar cuts reduce this even further. 

Why is an increased risk of trunk failure so much better then a risk of limb failure?

The problem with pictures is that it is dueling anecdotes, and we would not want to cut out the successful sprout formations to dissect as an example. Maybe in a few years Guy will have one that he will be taking down to show as an anecdote.


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## Ekka (May 24, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> The problem with pictures is that it is dueling anecdotes, and we would not want to cut out the successful sprout formations to dissect as an example. Maybe in a few years Guy will have one that he will be taking down to show as an anecdote.



Fortunately there was a man who did both to trees then did dissect them, till it's done all we got is talk ... and that is cheap let alone pass off some voodoo science and BS in ignorant magazines about it! 

The scientific community have stringent testing to ensure that there's real evidence, I feel Guy is off in la-la land full of BS for most parts and selling that like snake oil to the next gullible editor. 

Trunk failures, lets talk about it. Honestly, how many do you see where the trunk snapped? You'll see blow overs and bell failures but a fair dinkum the trunk snapped is rare, real rare .... we had a few here though, the wind was so bad it snapped solid euc trunks up to 2' dia clean, doesn't matter how good your tree is if wind like that hits. Our ironbark eucs have the same weight m3 as your heaviest oaks, but they're 3X stronger .... woods aint woods you know, they're all different.


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## treeseer (May 24, 2009)

ddh, how does this look to you now? And to the lurkers out there--please do not let the namecalling, bad manners and fighting tone here keep you from posting. First, consider the source; water off a duck's back; sticks and stones, you get the idea. I am interested in hearing from popcorn munching arborists whose approach to arboriculture is free of personal agendas. pm is okay.

The point of the last pic was to show that even in a heading cut that was too far out and had to be reduced after 3 years, the decay only moved down 3" in that time. Look at the bright white sapwood below that sprout--codit battled long and hard, while resources/reinforcements were assembled further back, in the next line of defence. This is the same process as retrenchment pruning done for veteran trees in the UK.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> My reasoning all boils down to what is best for the tree *now* and what is best for the client and their overall situation. I was doing storm work; making my textbook collar cuts, and looking at the end results thinking that this cannot be good for anyone in the long term. Multiple collar cuts on the stem would result in a weakening of the stem.
> 
> It seems to me that no matter what we will have decay courts in the tree after reparation; consequently, it would be better to have the decay courts out on branches and limbs then in the trunks and stems. I never said that there would *not* be any decay resulting from a nodal cut, just that the tree would be better able to tolerate it in the long term.
> 
> ...


Why indeed?? No reason, or rhyme. Plus, the risk of stem failure is only one downside to creating multiple large wounds. There is the effect on the entire tree system as it scrambles to use its stored resources to wall off decay in all that exposed heartwood. 

But a lot of those resources are now firewood, because someone thought the 1/3 Rule had to be obeyed. So the starving tree system spins into decline.


> The problem with pictures is that it is dueling anecdotes, and we would not want to cut out the successful sprout formations to dissect as an example. Maybe in a couple years Guy will be having one to show as an example.


O it will have to be this year that a restored end, maybe two or more, will be sacrificed. I have a couple in mind that the trees can afford to lose, that were pictured back in 2002. Stringent review is good--the attached was reviewed by several university PhD's, a few of whose names would be very familiar here.

I just finished moving an unrelated paper through journal-level review. 7 pages, 20+ citations down to the page number, 9 pics. The process is demanding but necessary to resolve the healthy skepticism that is still out there. So healthy skeptics are invited to contribute, here or offlist.


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## treevet (May 24, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Fact? Consider the evidence of 2 big stubs that sprouted and are sealing. That is visible "fact".
> 
> "Wall2: Heartwood prevents inward progression of decay."
> 
> ...




Guy you continue to confuse closure with compartmentalization. Let's see the interior or top of those 2 samples. Better yet, when you climb up to inspect "closure" of one of one of your giant stubs .....have your gm send up a resistograph and prove my point. You spend way too much time writing mag articles if you haven't noticed closed wounds with mass decay beneath them. An even bigger issue, as I have mentioned countless times, it the cracks associated with these end cuts in both ring shakes and radial cracks. Another issue will be the structural integrity of the attachment of these adventitious sprouts you are so proudly farming. 

It is amusing to me that you have the audicity to quote Shigo's model portion of "wall 2" (although you screw up the part where it says "resists" decay and insert your own word, "prevents" decay) but you do not have the respect of the discoverer of the whole process by repeatedly misusing his term "codit" and are indignant in regards to me correcting you about it. No respect......a plethora of arrogance tho.

As I have mentioned numerous times, I have no issues with leaving stubs to nodes on storm damaged trees if they are smaller diameter and in the 1/3 rd rule range (yea I said it and Shigo uses it and so does Gilman) but you make up your own rules and give your own brand of scientific evidence (lol). Shigo dissected over 15,000 trees with a chainsaw in his research and most of them longetudinally which had never been done before. He discovered the way branches were attached to trees in 1985 and this led the way to all these breakthroughs in knowledge.

I believe what JPS quoted about a cone shaped wall but feel it will be rendered a moot point when the giant stub will inevitably have to be removed and boundaries broken or the entire tree cut down because of your bad decisions.


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## ddhlakebound (May 24, 2009)

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what to think. I can see positives and negatives on both sides, especially across the vast diversity of species being dealt with and discussed worldwide. 

The point I keep coming back to in my mind is that trees have been taking care of themselves (compartmentalizing) before chainsaws, before handsaws, even before humans were doing anything with them besides picking up fallen dead wood for clubs and firewood. 

There are lots of mature trees that have suffered major injuries from nature and survived without any human influence. In some of them compartmentalization failed completely and they're totally hollow, (given enough time and failed codit, all the heartwood and sapwood that was present when decay began is gone) but still adding new strong wood to maintain the structural integrity of the tree. (I see these as one step from total failure, as virtually any new wounding can open the small outer ring of strong supporting wood to new decay and finish the tree.)

In others codit has worked, leaving the stem or limbs with voids and hollow spots, but generally sound and strong. As I understand it, (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong), the tree basically has built in engineering systems to grow new wood at these points that is stong enough to support the loads they will be required to bear long term. 

The question is, do these engineering systems the tree uses leave the stem or limb weaker than it was, and how much weaker?

I'm leaning firmly towards leaving as much material as possible when the tree appears to have the vitatality needed for regrowth, and the sunlight to allow the limb to maintain its growth. It's the action with the least finality, and leaves us with future options for further management. 

I need to shell out some bucks and do alot more reading on the limited evidence in print. And I'm REALLY wanting to get back up a certain red oak I node trimmed in late feb/early march '07 as a result of mid limb ice damage to the whole north side of the tree. 

I'm lacking in the experience department, I simply don't have the years in that most of the principals in this thread do, so I'm questioning everything I can, and trying to reason things out.


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## treevet (May 24, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> What I am referring to is the discolored wood found in a primary branch being naturally shed at the collar.
> 
> 
> Multiple collar cuts on the stem would result in a weakening of the stem.
> ...



My primary role in this debate all along has been the issue of leaving a giant (best way to briefly describe) that Meilleur advocates leaving as a general practice (thought you concurred) as opposed to biting the bullet and doing the right thing and remove it now with a ntp cut and let the tree do its thing and stave off infection. 

Leaving the giant stub has nothing to do with the tree shedding the branch naturally at the collar IMO. The stub will be dying, cracking, attracting fungi and insects and looking dog ugly until, as I have seen a thousand times in my 4 decades of pruning, it will inevitably have to be removed. I would venture to say (without proof ofcourse) that I have logged in many many more hours in the canopy of trees than anyone involved in this discourse. This may ruffle a few feathers but the truth is the truth. Also logged in, to date, approx. 30 years of involvement with Shigo, reading his books, attending countless seminars including the week long Boone, NC, annual seminar in the woods with 25 participants, 25 microscopes, and Alex Shigo, where trees were wounded and we viewed them under microscopes as to the tree's reaction to the wounding in the walls after dissecting them. Even been out to dinner with the guy with a couple of other students. Miss him alot. Can't get my Shigo fix anymore my wife was accustomed to as she worked for Delta and I could fly for free. Discussions like this help sooth the savage beast tho.

Anyway, sorry for the filibuster, I want to say that I am not advocating "multiple collar cuts" but just one in favor of leaving a giant stub. I think leaving it increases the likelyhood of catastrophic trunk failure (assuming the presence of high level targets.....why are we there otherwise) by being a vector of a build up of decay that the collar cut will have to face when the stub has to be removed later.


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## jefflovstrom (May 24, 2009)

What happened with the Hurricanes?
Jeff


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 24, 2009)

> The stub will be dying, cracking, attracting fungi and insects



My point is that so will the collar cut. In severe storm damage you will often end up with several of these massive wounds in the trunk. 



> Honestly, how many do you see where the trunk snapped?



Quite a few actually, we have a cyclicality of high wind events here that allow the weakening of the stem and enough top growth to get a good height of pressure. My reasoning for not seeing more of it is that a reasonable person can see that decay in the hot-spot is grounds to call a tree-cutter in to remove it.

Another study, that I remember from a seminar, but cannot cite directly; noted that a large percentage of this wounding patter also weather to form a "case hardened" shell on the face of the cut, with wet wood decay on the inside. This was a muni' UF oriented talk that recommended an automatic removal SOP after storms when there was a certain trunk:stem diameter (should I put RATIO in there, or does the colon suffice?). This was for the sole purpose of getting the removal onto the emergency budget, since statistically these trees would need removal in around 10 years.


My view is that with nodal pruning as part of a management program one can trim the failed end back to another clump of sprouts. Quite often the supposed failure is only near the end of the cut limb; with the compartmentalization succeeding just a short distance back. 

Even on silver maples I have only had to make a few cuts to get back to "good wood". Cottonwood is another story, going back to the species part of the discussion. Though the latter seems to discolor farther back, I'm not sure if the decay is all that problematic. I just had to err on the side of seeing "good wood".



> as I have seen a thousand times in my 4 decades of pruning



Well I've been working trees for over two decades, and started reading: Shigo, Pirrone, Harris et. al. over fifteen years ago. So I do think that my opinions well informed. 

I do think that Al was, and still is, very important to the industry and science. It is just that people take what he wrote and head it dogmatically. Try talking to plant science researchers and tell them that minerals and elements are not nutrients. It does not go over well.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 24, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> What happened with the Hurricanes?
> Jeff



The season will start soon Jeff, and with global warming, you might see them in your back yard in a few years.


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## jefflovstrom (May 24, 2009)

Not here, John
Resectfuuly, Jeff


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## treevet (May 24, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Well I've been working trees for over two decades, and started reading: Shigo, Pirrone, Harris et. al. over fifteen years ago. So I do think that my opinions well informed.
> 
> I do think that Al was, and still is, very important to the industry and science. It is just that people take what he wrote and head it dogmatically. Try talking to plant science researchers and tell them that minerals and elements are not nutrients. It does not go over well.



I think you are extremely well informed. That was mainly directed at Guy.

Accurate scientific research that yields truth is timeless.

Prior to meeting Shigo at Arborage 1 in 1980, I read Pirone's Tree Maintenance and Diseases and Pests of Ornamental Trees daily until the covers wore off. I think at last count I have around 70 arboricultural texts in my library. Amongst many others, I think Francis Schwarze 2 texts (1 brand new) are a must have for discussions of this nature. This stuff is like buying the best chainsaws and climbing gear, etc. ISA puts out a great catalogue of wish lists of books like the Sherrill catalogue of gear. I have most of them.

Happy Memorial Day, fellow ex Marine.


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## Ekka (May 24, 2009)

treeseer said:


> The point of the last pic was to show that even in a heading cut that was too far out and had to be reduced after 3 years, the decay only moved down 3" in that time. Look at the bright white sapwood below that sprout--codit battled long and hard, while resources/reinforcements were assembled further back, in the next line of defence.



Again, this means absolutely nothing unless you compare apples to apples. Over here some of our trees as a dead stump sitting in a paddock for 3 years will show no decay. Also in that picture do note the difference on the side that didn't have the sucker, not much difference was there.



treeseer said:


> There is the effect on the entire tree system as it scrambles to use its stored resources to wall off decay in all that exposed heartwood.



Wow, bit melodramatic isn't it?  You like doing that dont you.

Scramble it's resources to ward off decay ... *what a load of BS*. About the only wall that uses any resources is the new growth. You also dont understand how trees allocate their resources as it's a well known event trees actually place more emphasis on growth than defence.

The first thing trees try to do is replace lost foliage and they'll try to grow that anywhere they can. After storms you'd be wiser treating the injured trees with Cambistat to slow their growth and invigorate their root systems.

Do you know the hierarchy of how trees allocate resources?

3 Pictures below taken yesterday, the storm even was November 2008, winds so strong that all the leaves on the trees turned brown, the leaves natural abscission zone was broken. Of course some trees were broken and some were not. Also lots of consistent rain so trees were well resourced for recovery (best rains for years!).

Lets take a look at what trees do.






In the picture above the tree closest in the foreground had the trunk snapped off, a few branches off to the left remained .... tree is dead now simply lost too much. Now the tree just behind it had all the vertical branches broken off and one branch off to the left remained. It lived and note what it's doing ... growing masses of foliage.






Now in the above picture these trees wweren't broken much however they did lose all their leaves, take a look at the regrowth all over them.






Here's a close up, note the growth. Now which one is from a node? Or are they all from a node?

It's very apparent the first thing a tree has to do is grow foliage.


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## treeseer (May 24, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> What happened with the Hurricanes?
> Jeff


Hey JPS I think he's talking hockey...Man, the series with NJ then Boston just took it out of them, legs, heads and hearts. No energy to meet Pittsburgh head on. It was a good season though. 

The stadium is just 20 minutes away but I don't think I'll see Game 4; people in black and gold will be waving the brooms!

"I think Francis Schwarze 2 texts (1 brand new) are a must have for discussions of this nature."

:agree2: That's why I sought out his first book and reviewed it for the journal in 2002. The attached was peer-reviewed, so i pretended to sound informed on what it was about. Guess they were all fooled, huh? 

Schwarze, Engels and Mattheck remind us in 2001’s Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees, large wounds on trunks are likely to crack and become “motorways for decay-causing fungi and bacteria.” racing into the heart of the tree. Trees rely on suberin (a fungus-inhibiting corky material) to form a barrier zone. In our increasingly acidified atmosphere, more of that suberin may be dissolved. Callusing cambium can lose its protective function, just as desuberized dogwood leaves are exposed to lethal anthracnose. 

Now more than ever, our strategy must be to minimize the size of the infection courts that we leave behind. Or is there another interpretation that you could inform us of?

His Diagnosis book came out early last year. See page 121--fungi colonize only if the tree lacks barriers, and can't form barriers. Barriers are present at nodes, aka Branch Protection Zones, right? 6.2.2 on page 122 of the Diagnosis book: Sapwood has a lot more defenses than heartwood. Moral: Don't expose heartwood needlessly. Or is there another interpretation that you could inform us of? If so, you could include it in your review--the world is waiting for one to be done!

re Resistograph on the restored ends--I've gone you one better and taken increment cores--no misinterpretation of instrument readings when the core of wood is in your hand. I have pictures but they did not get into the attached article on devices. They are being held for later publication, sorry.

Many arborists still passionately embrace the “1/3 Rule” as the be-all and end-all criterion for deciding how far back to reduce a branch or stem. They call this “Natural Target Pruning”, or the “Shigo Cut”, and decry any cut to a smaller lateral as a "topping cut". It is time for that anti-topping passion to cool. “Pruning properly done is one of the most difficult tree treatments. Every branch will be different…Rules are too absolute for Mother Nature.” (Dr. Alex Shigo, A New Tree Biology). 

"I'm leaning firmly towards leaving as much material as possible when the tree appears to have the vitatality needed for regrowth, and the sunlight to allow the limb to maintain its growth. It's the action with the least finality, and leaves us with future options for further management."

Common sense. 

"I'm REALLY wanting to get back up a certain red oak I node trimmed in late feb/early march '07 as a result of mid limb ice damage to the whole north side of the tree."

No rush, but take a camera up with you, okay?  Red oak, weak codit? We'll see.


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## jefflovstrom (May 24, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> My point is that so will the collar cut. In severe storm damage you will often end up with several of these massive wounds in the trunk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, are you saying that if Al lived longer, he would differ his opinion to suit yours, or are you speaking for him from the grave.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (May 24, 2009)

My cousins play, not me, Two goalies in Sweden and one traded to Canada.
Jeff


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## Ekka (May 25, 2009)

Guy, you should move to UK where round-overs and reductions are common practice, I'm sure they'd love to node you.


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## treevet (May 25, 2009)

treeseer said:


> :agree2: That's why I sought out his first book and reviewed it for the journal in 2002. The attached was peer-reviewed, so i pretended to sound informed on what it was about. Guess they were all fooled, huh?
> 
> Now more than ever, our strategy must be to minimize the size of the infection courts that we leave



Let me know when you WRITE a text (scientifically researched and not full of conjecture and assumptions like your posts) not review other's works, then I will be really impressed. Maybe if you were out in the real world (trees) and not behind the puter all the time you would be more informed.

From many casual observations the huge stub is a very large infection court as it is failing and a magnet for decay causing orgs. The parent cut has not waned in vitality yet and is the obvious choice in most circumstances. As for cracks .... a round cylinder such as your stub will crack (ring shakes and esp.radial cracks) more easily than a large side positioned cut on the large main stem (probably not much larger than the 12 inch honkers you leave) as there is more mass to displace (side movement) IMO. I have read extensively and give my opinions on a compilation of what I have read and my own observations (just like you do) and that could be called "hearsay" as I have heard you refer to your own opinions before.

Your art. on Schwarze's first book I read a long time ago was quite good albeit maybe much too condensed. When you gonna finish the second one?

Where is your research on suberin decreasing in woundwood?


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 25, 2009)

> treating the injured trees with Cambistat to slow their growth and invigorate their root systems.



I'm kinda concerned with inhibition of calus growth, Though I agree that the rapid onset of succulent material is not beneficial. I would maybe advocate the use of paclobutrazol in following years, not after initial wounding.

Quite often water is the biggest limiting factor, as with any stressing event.



> About the only wall that uses any resources is the new growth.



Yes, more resources go to growth, but the plant needs to expend energy in the chemical conversions involved in compartmentalization. Species has a lot to do with this, because the r/K selection traits will "tell" it weather to grow fast and reproduce often, or live long and fight. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

I would follow my above rules with an bur oak or sugar male, where with any Populus or Betula I would probably recommend replacement as soon as possible. I've read that some of the oldest trees in norther Europe are in the white oak sub genus that have been broken up by storms.



> So, are you saying that if Al lived longer, he would differ his opinion to suit yours, or are you speaking for him from the grave.



neither, I would like to think that he would agree with my interpretation of his, and others, work. Since I have read many of his later articles several time; he might say I know nothing.  I respect his place in the industry and science, but disagree with the way he went about some things. He had a "my way only" sense in many writings, saying that those who disagree know nothing: pruning of girdling roots is one i remember.





> Happy Memorial Day, fellow ex Marine.



OooooRAH! and God bless.


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## treeseer (May 25, 2009)

"Your art. on Schwarze's first book I read a long time ago was quite good albeit maybe much too condensed."

You're right; there is a lot more in that book that applies to arboriculture. Your turn! 
o and I was *told* to whack it from 800 to 500 words. Kinda like reducing a baldcypress.  

Then in print, it fit on the top half of a page. The bottom half was......blank. :censored::censored: Now there is a new editor, who is very good.

"When you gonna finish the second one?"

Your turn smart guy  What did that $200 book do to make you a better arborist? 


"Where is your research on suberin decreasing in woundwood?"

You're not the first to ask. You get the same answer--where's yours? Read again; I never made a claim that required a citation. Just common sense. Logic is science--systematic analysis.

re "scientifically" researched, what do you mean? They all have a bibliography, and all the ISA works are closely reviewed. No texts--i like books but there are already good books out there. re testing in formal experiments, you write the grant.


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## ddhlakebound (May 25, 2009)

woohoo!!!

I just got A New Tree Biology off ebay for under $35 shipped. Yay!!


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 25, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> woohoo!!!
> 
> I just got A New Tree Biology off ebay for under $35 shipped. Yay!!



look for an old edition of Harris' "Arboriculture"


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## ddhlakebound (May 25, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> look for an old edition of Harris' "Arboriculture"



Cool, found that on at alibris for $8 shipped. First edition hardback in good shape, and on the way.

Now I've gotta read 1100 plus pages.....Time to put the fiction down for a while.


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## stihlhere (May 26, 2009)

so when i have a customer insist on having a limb remover to the trunk larger than 12inch (mainly live oak or water oak) what should be the procedure. also on live oak when a limb becomes to heavy and tears out of trunk what then. I know a lot may depend on damage but feel free to give me scenario.
one more thing i have no formal training on pruning and do mainly removals but i want learn can you suggest some books. Also the order that i should read them. thanks


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 26, 2009)

stihlhere said:


> so when i have a customer insist on having a limb remover to the trunk larger than 12inch (mainly live oak or water oak) what should be the procedure.



When in this situation I try to talk people into a reduction, depending on species, condition, location, reason for the requested work...[/QUOTE]






> one more thing i have no formal training on pruning and do mainly removals but i want learn can you suggest some books. Also the order that i should read them. thanks



Do you have the "Tree Climbers Companion: by Jepson?

Starting with Modern Arboriculture is good, Shigo write for the working man while some others are more academic. 

Is there a good public library you can go to to look at some old books? That is what i did first, Milwaukee Public Library had a number of old Shigo books in the reference, and a Pirrone that i could take home.

Shigo's "Photo Guide" is a good primer for understanding how wounding effect trees.


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## Ekka (May 26, 2009)

A honking huge stub and paint the end apparently ... and if anyone asks always say ... "it's a node, a node I'm telling you, cant you see it!" 

I've been around these forums for some 5 years now, and this crap just keeps spinning around and around, the main perp hoping it snowballs but it just melts down, as it should. :deadhorse:


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## treevet (May 26, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> woohoo!!!
> 
> I just got A New Tree Biology off ebay for under $35 shipped. Yay!!



If it is missing an addendum it is a first copy. He sent out the addendums after distribution with a nice personal note and a "thank you for the first copy" written on the pamphlet that I received in the mail later. (along with "touch trees" that he wrote on every book he was asked to sign.


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## treevet (May 26, 2009)

Ekka said:


> I've been around these forums for some 5 years now, and this crap just keeps spinning around and around, the main perp hoping it snowballs but it just melts down, as it should. :deadhorse:



You got that right....it is ok to spike trees, leave huge stubs, top trees, leave deadwood in trees, flush cuts, tree paint.....etc, etc, etc, :fart: these guys emitting old fallacies, that have been disproven....just stinks.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 26, 2009)

Ekka said:


> :deadhorse:



Yeah, i know, you just want to lop everything back to the trunk and show everyone how good your collar cuts are. "Ey mate, ain't no branches left, but every cut is *textbook*!"


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## ddhlakebound (May 26, 2009)

ChainsawGuy said:


> Hey Mr. Mapleman,
> 
> I found this awesome saw system that eliminates lots of time and effort. We got hit with ice storm damage big time in New England this winter, do a search for "extended reach chainsaw", this may help all of you!
> 
> ChainsawGuy



There are a few other things this product eliminates too.....

It eliminates good quality cuts, placed properly so the tree can seal the wound. 

It eliminates a saftey margin, becuase when your trying to use a 14 pound saw 30' up, most times you'll be standing pretty close to "under" whatever you're cutting. 

In many cutters hands it eliminates all the branches that can be reached, wether they need it or not. 

Plus it allows you to be dependant on electric power to work, stringing cords is a great timesaver, and trying to communicate over a generator is always great. 

You can get near the same performance from $120 worth of jamison poles and a $50 saw head, and never need electricity, plus the foam filled poles are di-electically rated, and can be used for multiple purposes.


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## ddhlakebound (May 26, 2009)

ChainsawGuy said:


> Hey ddhlakebound,
> 
> You are sadly mistaken. The saw head weighs less than 6 pounds, the whole system set up and extended weighs <14lbs. Most of my jobs are at the HO level, and I'm set up and running in less than 10 minutes without a generator, I have that for work well beyond any HO current, such as when I'm pruning trees in an orchard. Did you check out the videos on the site? I guess old ways of doing things die hard. Have a day!
> 
> Chainsaw Guy



Yeah, I watched the videos....they're a joke. 

Video 1: One 3" cut on the lowest limb of the tree, leaving a stub. 

Vidoe 2: A bunch of pointless 1-2" cuts on a pine that serve no obvious purpose. The generator noise is almost as pleasant to listen to as I imagined. 

Video 3: More of the same, same tree. I hope this one is a removal, cause it's hacked up now. 

Video 4: A painfully slow cut on a 5-6" limb, lacking control for anything but a free fall. 

Video 5: An 80 lb chunk falls into the roadway with no control whatsoever from 30' up. The cutter had to rest the pole on a stub to acheive side reach. Those poles don't bend or break do they?

Video 6: That one's funny. I've seen beavers chew through trees faster. Also almost broke the system by dropping the section on the poles above the stob support point, cause it's too heavy to use at an angle without support. 

Video 7: Another slow cut, then the operator standing back wondering "how in the hell do I finish this removal with this POS I'm using?"

Video 8: Back to hacking on the original pine tree. More useless cuts that could have been made with a pole pruner costing much less and using no power.

Video 9: Duplicate of video 1....wasn't any better the second time. 

Video 10: More small limb removal on the oak. I'd really like to see a close up of the finished cuts, to view the tearouts and see if the bottom of the branch collar is cracked from the tearing cut. 

Totally unimpressive, and you failed to address the issue of damaged branch unions from extended reach cutting, saftey of cutting directly below your target (or risking the tool by resting it on another limb). 

It's a tool made for making money (for the manufacturers), not taking care of trees.


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## ddhlakebound (May 26, 2009)

Ekka said:


> A honking huge stub and paint the end apparently ... and if anyone asks always say ... "it's a node, a node I'm telling you, cant you see it!"
> 
> I've been around these forums for some 5 years now, and this crap just keeps spinning around and around, the main perp hoping it snowballs but it just melts down, as it should. :deadhorse:



Back to the topic, sorry for the derail. 

As I understand the point of node trimming, it's not to make crown reductions or topping ok, it's in response to damage from nature. 

Cleaning the break to the first good node allows the tree to keep more dynamic material, and recover more quickly. 

Yes, it looks horrible for the first couple years, but long term it allows the tree to restore a much more natural canopy in far less time, with less rescources expended. It's not all about how the tree looks today. 

Given the opportunity, I'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb than to invite it into the main stem with a large collar cut. 

Nobody is going to be able to see the node from the ground, but it IS there, and will provide a better connected branch than internodal trimming that promotes even more aventitious sprouting.


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## Ekka (May 27, 2009)

Well, I took a pic of 10' of branch ... didn't see you pick the node! :monkey:

Some Guy reckons get your magnifying glass out and look for nodes, might as well look for cows jumping over the moon too then ... I'm sure from a distance they look tiny too! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treevet (May 27, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> it allows the tree to restore a much more natural canopy in far less time, with less rescources expended. It's not all about how the tree looks today.
> 
> Given the opportunity, I'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb than to invite it into the main stem with a large collar cut.



I see you have joined the "imagine your own outcome scenario, regardless of established scientific research to the contrary club". You are right ....it is not all about how the tree looks today, it is about decay decay decay........

"You'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb (by leaving a huge stub)"......dream on. Why don't we just leave stubs on all pruning cuts, live or dead in your fairy tale world. Why???? research has proven decay will enter the stem.

Trees deserve BETTER care than Mother Nature gives them in the woods. Why.....??? Because of TARGETS. Why else?? Because we have brought trees out of their natural environment and caused them to evolve into a different structure (decurrent) that poses a threat to these targets, esp. when decay is involved.


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## ddhlakebound (May 28, 2009)

treevet said:


> I see you have joined the "imagine your own outcome scenario, regardless of established scientific research to the contrary club". You are right ....it is not all about how the tree looks today, it is about decay decay decay........
> 
> "You'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb (by leaving a huge stub)"......dream on. Why don't we just leave stubs on all pruning cuts, live or dead in your fairy tale world. Why???? research has proven decay will enter the stem.
> 
> Trees deserve BETTER care than Mother Nature gives them in the woods. Why.....??? Because of TARGETS. Why else?? Because we have brought trees out of their natural environment and caused them to evolve into a different structure (decurrent) that poses a threat to these targets, esp. when decay is involved.



We don't leave big or little stobs on regular trims because we have better options available to us, but in cases of storm damage most of our options have already been taken away. We're left trying to find the least destructive, most beneficial option.

I haven't joined any clubs, and in some cases the collar cut could be the better choice. 

But I also think in some cases node trimming is the best option available. How can we possibly apply any given rule to every tree in any situation?

Different species handle damage, regrowth, and compartmentalization differently. I don't believe that most times the "big stob" will decay into the main stem. Sometimes it will. I think alot of what's going to happen depends on species. Perhaps species isn't as important as I feel like it is....lots of variables to account for. 

But sometimes the main stem will decay with the collar cut too. So what are we losing or risking by leaving more material on the tree to aid regrowth? It seems to me we're only risking the growth that happens between the node trim and the future time we may have to make the cut back at the collar. Am I wrong on this?

If we're successful, the tree gets all the benefits I mentioned in the post above. If we're unsuccessful, and decay is moving down the limb, we still have the option to make the collar cut before decay reaches the main stem. (Provided the tree is getting regular checkups.) 

Ever remove a previously topped tree with pockets of decay at the points of the internodal cuts, that still had a solid main stem?

A big collar cut is as assured of decay as a big long stob is. If the tree is going to be monitored in the future, what is the downside of allowing it to keep as much dynamic material as possible? Especially if it's only over grass, fence, or driveway....I'm up in lots of trees that don't have high value targets. 

I haven't read most of the materail cited as evidence in this thread, but even so, many of you have read and cited the same materails and arrived at decidely different conclusions. Is this simply a difference in attempting to manage for the best possible outcome, and attempting to manage to avoid the worst possible outcome?


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

Nice spike wounds too. Prob ok in this day and age tho.? (and thread). The fungi will likely be decoyed away from the spike wounds and decay from the big decay loving candy bar (stub) will never be able to enter the stem (because we don't want it to?).


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 28, 2009)

treevet said:


> Nice spike wounds too. Prob ok in this day and age tho.? (and thread). The fungi will likely be decoyed away from the spike wounds and decay from the big decay loving candy bar (stub) will never be able to enter the stem (because we don't want it to?).



Heck the fungus is already in the stem, cut the tree down.

So if you have thirty of those limbs broken in the tree, you just cut them all off to a nice textbook cut? And that is good for the tree?

If that is the only broken limb, then I am on board with you. There is a good collar, and the limb:stem ratio is not all that huge. My stand is where the tree has been damaged catastrophically, or the wound is so big it will likely become a decay court.

Once again, it is easier managed in the limb then in the stem. Mitigation, repair and restoration is not a one shot deal if you are practicing tree management. To me a strict adherence to NTP can be as bad as topping.

I've seen many raise and gut jobs that had technically perfect collar cuts: no rips, not tears, and finnish cut from the bottom. Only that every cut's a large limb that is a major percentage of the stem face.


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## Ekka (May 28, 2009)

What next, a standard on stub cuts? For certain diameters a certain length stub decided by species? 

I have already laid the gauntlet by saying the regrowth and management of it is no different to topping, Vet you got a pic with a round over in the background ... looks like Guy's crap. It's also a typical management routine for topped trees to do what guy is doing with his node stuff, no different.

If node reductions are good enough on damaged trees then it might be OK on other trees, I'm losing my city views ... 1/3 off please but since there's no foliage or laterals in that 1/3 off ... "nodes" will do.

We have a wolf in sheep's clothing here. 

Mark my words, the wheel has turned 180 degrees, what is old is new again. I showed in Guy's pic that the ever valuable bond to the pith means nothing, was rotted.

Nodes on 15" branches. 

I took pictures of a development site and posted them up on my forum, Guy was the only person who was OK with the crap cuts, everyone else said it wasn't on. What were those crap cuts, simple, cutting off both sides of a co-dominant so you got a weird long stubbed limb with a triangle shape on the end growing 20 sprouts, he said that was OK too.





He sure seems to miss the documented annual evidence along with video .... seems a little "skinny" in the facts department for a man trying to revolutionize pruning.


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## treeseer (May 28, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> ...where the tree has been damaged catastrophically, or the wound is so big it will likely become a decay court.


 Yes of course no one ever said this method is for everyday pruning; to suggest so is off base. I'm sorry I have no experience managing damaged eucalypts. They are different--one method does not work for all species. Everyone should know that by now.


> Once again, it is easier managed in the limb then in the stem. Mitigation, repair and restoration is not a one shot deal if you are practicing tree management. To me a strict adherence to NTP can be as bad as topping.


Yes all true.

TCIA was kind enough to reduce the file size of the original article so it can be attached. If anyone wants to take the time please look it over. I'm glad to respond to any serious comments that apply to it; no time to reply to cursing or fighting or sarcasm.


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## treeseer (May 28, 2009)

attached is Ed Gilman's brief view on this. Also see his pubs ENH 1036 and ENH 1054 for expanded views, free for the downloading. *All 3 recommend heading cuts* in these circumstances that JPS describes. 

:agree2:

:notrolls2:


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

treeseer said:


> reducing branches rather than removing is better in most cases, in all species. white oak red oak red maple pecan sycamore etc. etc.
> 
> I've had 10' long stubs 12" dia come back fine--well, okay, anyway. I've had others not come back well,



Did you say you only stub off occasionally Guy? Not here.


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

treeseer said:


> > attached is Ed Gilman's brief view on this
> 
> 
> .
> ...


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Exactly--that is why removing back to the parent is usually wrong,



we starting to sound a little like a future tree topper


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Yes but the more tissue, especially heartwood, that is exposed, the more rot will happen.



This has been one of your main points through the thread in your favor IYO Guy. Well with a ntp cut on the side of the parent stem, you are exposing sapwood and not heartwood (of the main stem). You correctly only remove branch tissue and not parent stem tissue.

On the big stub cut you are obviously exposing your heartwood.






Let's take a look at this cut of your Guy. When the woundwood rolls into each other down the road we will get opposing pressure and cracks IMO. Weakened structure and vector to main stem.


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## ddhlakebound (May 28, 2009)

treevet said:


> treeseer said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

treeseer said:


> > Now more than ever, our strategy must be to minimize the size of the infection courts that we leave behind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> treevet said:
> 
> 
> > I read the referenced article too, and clearly saw what I perceived as evidence for large stubs to be retained.
> ...


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> treevet said:
> 
> 
> > I read the referenced article too, and clearly saw what I perceived as evidence for large stubs to be retained.
> ...


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## treevet (May 28, 2009)

http://www.shigoandtrees.com/docs/Publications list.pdf

Here are some of the publications of Shigo if anyone wants to research them.

Most of the people we read refer Shigo's work and research. Interesting to see Gilman using Shigo's analogy with money to energy being attained, stored, used, lost etc.


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## Ekka (May 30, 2009)

*Meilleur-folie cut*

Since my previous post has been removed here we go again, rebadged version to suit American sensitivity.

*Introducing the all new, highly self-acclaimed and world's most innovate pruning cut.​*
The French origin Meilleur-folie cut, the link translates this cut to the English version. 

In the event that the Meilleur-folie cut fails you have many choices, you could ...

* Call it a pollard, this is a really good one actually and bluffs most.
* Argue it was endocormic growth not epicormic and was bonded to the pith before it decayed and crushed the Beemer.
* Blame the shade for it dying.
* Blame the species for it not sprouting (like pine trees).
* Blame the paint manufacturer for the scald.
* Say you were learning and wanted to play safe.
* Say you were providing time for the tree to show you the correct cut.

So you can see overall you'll always be a winner with an excuse, and HAVE TO REVISIT THE TREE.

Here's a picture I took today of a Meilleur-folie cut, is this the way your tree care is heading? :monkey: Please let us node.


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## treeseer (May 30, 2009)

The thread was about reducing and restoring catastrophically damaged limbs in northern hemisphere hardwood species. How does a pic of small lateral stub on a eucalyptus address the topic? 

Kind of like showing an elephant's hangnail to a polar bear doctor. Sorry for the confusion but thanks so much for editing out the scatological descriptor. :yourock: A true gentleman  ; now to work on the scholar part...

Darn Americans don't want s**t in their sandbox; stuffy old spoilsports--good clean fun eh wot! Do they still do dwarf tossing for manly fun in OZ? We still have dogfights here, in 2009, though we do toss star NFL quarterbacks in the slammer for a year hard time for bankrolling them.

o yeah trees--here is a pre-restoration pic of the top of that oak 5 years after. Closure rate ~1"/year, no decay evident. As you can see-- if these sprouts get restoration pruned *ONE* time, five years after, the remaining structure will be acceptably sound for the long run. 

That client has contracted for a followup pruning in 2012, when the tree will need deadwooding anyway. Those ends will get light pruning but they will not *need* much if anything.

Case closed; see you with the big lower stub pics in a week or so. :biggrinbounce2:


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## Ekka (May 30, 2009)

treeseer said:


> The thread was about reducing and restoring catsastrophically damaged limbs in northern hemisphere hardwood species. The pic of small lateral removal on a eucalyptus does not address the topic.



Well, that's strange ... you didn't start the thread but decide it's purpose, geographical location, species and anything else that suits your BS. :hmm3grin2orange:

In Australia we call these cyclones, same deal. And that limb on that euc was stub cut after a cyclonic event. Also then, why do you insist on pedalling your BS in Australia then? Heck you even wrote ...



treeseer said:


> So avoiding the exposure of heartwood is indeed a hard and fast rule, from Canada to the Caribbean.





treeseer said:


> Gene-driven Anatomy by itself rarely makes or breaks the decision imo.





treeseer said:


> in all species. white oak red oak red maple pecan sycamore etc. etc.



But had the audacity to write that I'm disadvantaged because of our trees .... appears to me you're inconsistent and rather assumptive especially when one of the pictures I posted was of a non Australian tree. :deadhorse:



treeseer said:


> _"There doesn't appear to be much difference in the regrowth from a nodal cut to an inter-nodal cut IMHO."_
> 
> ok--when you are unfamiliar with non-Australian trees, that is one more disadvantage.



-------------------------​


treeseer said:


> Darn Americans don't want s**t in their sandbox; stuffy old spoilsports!



LOL, they better hurry up to see the trees too at the rate the parks are being "Terminated", seems "text book" practices aren't found in fiscal management either. :hmm3grin2orange:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...n-the-trees-face-the-big-squeeze-1693375.html



> If you want to look at the world's tallest tree up close, then don't delay – unless you have an utterly irrational faith in the financial sanity of the state of California. The giant redwood tree, standing over 370 feet, is to be found in Humboldt Redwoods Park, one of some 200 state parks due to be shut under the ever more desperate attempts of Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Governor.



-----------------------------------​


treeseer said:


> Case closed; see you with the big lower stub pics in a week or so. :biggrinbounce2:



The case is far from closed, going by your theory as long as topping cuts close then it's a job well done. Also those cuts aren't on some large limb. :deadhorse:


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## Ekka (May 31, 2009)

treeseer said:


> tv, post your pics of your 12" stem wounds that callused over. then we will have something to talk about.



Whilst I'm not TV I have something to talk about alright, making sure these readers get to see the full picture not just what you ram down their throats. 

Now lets see, hm-mm this one even exceeds your 12" gauntlet.











And where is the tree? Oh in the middle of a playground.






And again, not by chance or deceit here's another.






And it's totally sealed over.


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## treesandsurf (May 31, 2009)

Aren't we talking about a pruning method that is used for very specific situations?; where there is large lateral limb failure and used as an alternative to removing back to the trunk to fit into the pidgeonholed 1/3 rule? :deadhorse:

If our studies don't lead us down the path towards understanding the depth of our ignorance, then we're not studying hard enough! 

In this situation, BMP in my book is to take as little biomass from tree as possible and let the arborist follow the tree. If no new growth resprouts, tree has communicated that all is lost for that limb and it's time to go. It costs money to make biomass; don't drain the bank accounts to appease the Dr.'s and the 'rules'. :help:

jp


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## Ekka (May 31, 2009)

Lordy, another genius .... Shigo would turn in his grave. :notrolls2:


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## Ekka (Jun 1, 2009)

Wow, I was so lucky again today driving around observing road side trees and just like that *BOOM!*

Some more worthy candidates. 

Check out this smooth character.












Then out of the blue I spotted this tree which featured both target cuts and Meilleur-folie cuts ... all in the same frame. 

Lets check it out.






And how big is that target cut that sealed over?






And lets check out that Meilleur-folie cut close.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 1, 2009)

Sure, the a healthy tree has had a large limb cut off, and closes over. The discussion is on trees that have lost a significant portion of their canopy.

Our position is that "reparation" trimming should be managed gradually, you say cut everything to the collar, even if you are cutting "half" the tree away.

To paraphrase the eminent Dr. (call me Al) Shigo, the debate is about dosage and time.

I say apply a gradual, and thoughtful, management program. 

You say lop'em all off now and be done with it.

You say we are reverting to old bad practices, I say the "new" ideology has now become dogmatic. You are a great example, with your bombastic pillorying of those who take a stance counter to the party line.


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## outofmytree (Jun 1, 2009)

What a great thread. I skipped reading this for days because I thought it was just another "check out how much I made this week" series of posts.

I have seen a number of wound closures over 300mm myself as well as many that have not. The difficulty for learning arborists like me comes in understanding why one calluses and another doesn't. Perhaps I should take a few photographs of different wounds and ask for your opinions.

I am drawn to the concept of removing as little of a tree as possible post trauma but TV and Ekka have both posted information which lines up with my meager botanical knowledge. Is it possible to have ones cake and eat it too? Redirecting a limb seems to be a similar process but of course we rely on existing growth rather than possible future growth for that sort of pruning. 

Ah well. I said I was learning.....


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## Ekka (Jun 1, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Sure, the a healthy tree has had a large limb cut off, and closes over. The discussion is on trees that have lost a significant portion of their canopy.



The thread is also about removing large limbs if you care to read it and comprehend it.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> Our position is that "reparation" trimming should be managed gradually, you say cut everything to the collar, even if you are cutting "half" the tree away.



Find me where I said I'm cutting half the tree away? :monkey:



John Paul Sanborn said:


> To paraphrase the eminent Dr. (call me Al) Shigo, the debate is about dosage and time.



About time then you noticed what dosage a species can take and applied accordingly to the situation. 



John Paul Sanborn said:


> I say apply a gradual, and thoughtful, management program.
> 
> You say lop'em all off now and be done with it.



Once again, where did I say that and quote it? And are you insinuating that another approach that's different to yours is unthoughtful? :monkey:



John Paul Sanborn said:


> You say we are reverting to old bad practices, I say the "new" ideology has now become dogmatic. You are a great example, with your bombastic pillorying of those who take a stance counter to the party line.



Nice tar brush you got there. LOL If you read you'll see how loaded your opinions and approach is.

I like to think I'm a good example of not lying down and taking as gospel the one sided facade that is proposed here. In rebuttle I post pictures and facts, meanwhile you lot throw garbage and names plus insinuate I say and write things that I do not .... you guys say I'm a troll but you're *out of conTROLL*.

Just have a look at your loaded post, then have a look at the BS in this thread, readers and clients need to know not all what they see and read is "gospel" just because Guy M or JPS said so.

If you care to dig you'll see I did mention nodes, and my perspective of them. 

Here is my post about it, and second post after it I added pertinent points to Guy's pictures and issues I saw, hardly a "bombastic pillorying" but interesting to see that's how you people perceive it and interesting to note how you deal with it. 



Ekka said:


> There doesn't appear to be much difference in the regrowth from a nodal cut to an inter-nodal cut IMHO.
> 
> Both cuts push out a lot more than 1 new shoot from 1 bud. Both cuts require returning to thin out the suckers and manage a strong one or two.
> 
> ...


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## treeseer (Jun 1, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The difficulty for learning arborists like me comes in understanding why one calluses and another doesn't.


I have the same difficulty, but with enough study we may be able to come up with a reasonable protocol.


> I am drawn to the concept of removing as little of a tree as possible post trauma but TV and Ekka have both posted information which lines up with my meager botanical knowledge.


tHE 1/3 rule and the collar cut are starting-off places. Note that Shigo (who admitted he was still learning, and encouraged us to not rely on his findings but learn for ourselves) endorsed pruning to nodes, saying that every branch is different, and that rules are too strict for Mother Nature. He defined a node as a place where the terminal bud was set--much easier to see on other species than on eucs, so you in Oz obviously may find it harder to follow.

please do post pics but perhaps a new thread should be started as this one has veered into vendettas.

Pugnacity begets mendacity; no sagacity without veracity.


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 1, 2009)

Just so everyone doesn't have to go to the dictionary....

Pugnacity - Inclination or readiness to fight

mendacity - the tendency to be untruthful

sagacity - the mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations

veracity - Adherence to the truth; truthfulness


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 1, 2009)

> Those trees in your pictures Guy look like round over topping jobs, those re-established canopies you see on the ice work trees same, argue what you like but I'm not the only skeptic.



What would they look like if he had cut them back further? Probably a stump.


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## Ekka (Jun 1, 2009)

LOL, whenever Treeseer's challenged he cries all sorts of rubbish, stay on topic Treeseer and quit crying! 



John Paul Sanborn said:


> What would they look like if he had cut them back further? Probably a stump.



JPS, I wrote and once again.



Ekka said:


> In the recent storms here many eucs lost their tops, those where all leaders etc were broken were removed. What are you going to do, have 50 epicormic shoots growing from every cut to manage on a grand scale of 1000's of park trees?
> 
> I can see the use of this for crown restoration on selected trees but on a grand scale you might want to bring in an orchard pruning machine and clean cut the trees en-mass, end result would be about the same.



Also the size of the cuts matter, the smaller the branch the better. To tip a tree where the cuts are all into say wood below 1" dia for most parts would mean the cuts are into sapwood and recovery would be quick. As you start to go larger in the diameters so do the problems. At small diameters nodes in most species are very visible. 

In some fairly good compartmentalizers here I did experiment tipping cuts, taking Leopard trees for example which can grow quite long vigorous tentacles I headed a few back to nodes. I did this as the client didn't like the bazaar tentacle spiky look from the top of his tree, I only did it on a few of these stems to see what happens and left the rest alone. 

All that happened is where I cut I got a kink in the branch and one if not two replacement tentacles, no advantage gained. These cuts were into stems perhaps 15mm thick maximum. In effect to gain the desire look the client was after you'd have to hedge trim the trees, luckily he came around and the trees now are very good looking and balanced naturally with only DDDD removed from the canopy with a crown lift for the driveway.

In another example of restorative node pruning the tips of a ficus elastica were cut back, no more than 1" dia cuts to the entire canopy to regenerate a new crown as the tree was struggling. Whilst this defies logic in tree biology it can at times rejuvenate a tree, and ficus is a likely candidate for that. The tree fully recovered, looks great and to the naked eye of course you cant tell. Our Australian Standards of pruning do accommodate heading and tipping cuts for crown rejuvenation, but we're not taking that as meaning a green light to leave 12" dia stubs all over the tree.

Page 17 AS4373-2007


> 7.3.5 Remedial (restorative) pruning (H)
> This type of pruning shall only be carried out on trees which have lost their natural form and structure through storm damage, mechanical damage, vandalism, lopping, dieback or disease. This method is usually only used when all other approaches have failed and replacing the tree is difficult. The purpose of this pruning is to prolong the useful life expectancy of such trees and to reduce their hazard potential. This type of pruning removes damaged, diseased or lopped branches back to undamaged or healthy tissue. The final cut may not necessarily be at the branch collar. The aim is to induce the production of epicormic shoots from which a new crown is intended to be established. To achieve this, regrowth should be managed by reduction pruning or crown
> thinning.
> 
> ...



Did you read the PDF by David Evans from UK, Pruned to Death?

In the attached picture is a group of trees damaged by the storm.

Tree 1 on the left is a black wattle, they don't re shoot period, that tree should be removed now.

Tree 2 on the right was a spotty gum, notice it was cut back to a pole and died, should have been cut right down in the first place.

Tree 3 in the background is a grey gum, entire canopy busted off and throwing large amounts of epicormics ... should also be removed. The whole lot should go, end of story.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 1, 2009)

Those would have been a removal on any crew I've worked on. I don't think any tree I worked for Guy looked like that when I was done either. When I say significant portion of the canopy, I'm talking 30-40%; not 100%.

I will concede that the ten inch stub scenario we are stuck on is pushing the limits; but I still say that it is an option for managing a tree that has been severely damaged. What is the stem:trunk ratio, health of the tree, available sunlight, likelihood of a return visit....

The "good" picture that guy shows is more like what I practice. 






As for your "_I spotted this tree which featured both target cuts and Meilleur-folie cuts _" the rotten stub does not look like it was likely a nodal cut.






I take it you are in a dryer climate than I; here that would have wetwood seepage from under the hardened outer layer of dry wood.

Now say there are five or six of these on one side of the tree, and the limb is 30 ft out with no substantial bifurcations after the breaks. I would trim them to a node, especially if the points of origin were in close proximity.


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## Ekka (Jun 1, 2009)

Our rainfall here is average 1200mm a year but this year a lot more fell and it mainly falls in summer.


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