# Sequoia, or Sequoia swing???



## swede11 (May 21, 2010)

Anyone know which is better?

I know the swing is a tad more expensive, but I'm wondering if it's worth it.

If you think either of these are no good, I'm open to other recomendations.

Also, would I be better off ordering it online, or trying to get one through my local hardware store?


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## Josh777 (May 24, 2010)

After checking it out, the only real advantage to the swing is its extra comfort level while doing extended hang time. Even with it's separate leg loops the swing will still be more restrictive in movement than the standard sequoia though. Best of luck in making your decision! -Josh
:greenchainsaw:


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## D Mc (May 24, 2010)

swede11 said:


> Anyone know which is better?....
> Also, would I be better off ordering it online, or trying to get one through my local hardware store?



With saddles you really should try before you buy. The Petzl Sequoia line are popular and well made saddles but that does not mean they will work the best or be the most comfortable for you. Body types and climbing styles will have a strong influence on what ultimately is the best for you. 
I use the Sequoia SRT and for me it is very nice.

Dave


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## Josh777 (May 24, 2010)

swede11 said:


> Also, would I be better off ordering it online, or trying to get one through my local hardware store?



Definitely better to try it on if you have the opportunity. But once you get sized up, find the best price whether it be online or otherwise and buy. - Josh


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## tree md (May 24, 2010)

I started out working in a saddle with a butt sling and that is what I became accustomed to. Never could get used to leg loop saddles. On large removals (which I mostly do) and crane work I love having the comfort of a seat saddle. I'm using an older model Petzl Navaho Mini boss with a stiff batten seat and love that thing. I was in it for 6 hours today and never got cramped or pinched. When I need to take a load off for a minute I just hit the recline button in that thing and take a rest. I will often have my lunch sent up to me and take my lunch break in the tree. Not restrictive to me at all. I get all around my trees.


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## oldirty (May 25, 2010)

its nonsense, who ever started the rumor of a stiff seat slowing you down. 

climber once told me his sequoia squeezed his hips when he was hanging around. 

the swing was going to be my next saddle purchase i think but i caught a deal on the saddle i am flying currently so maybe next time.

i'm gonna fill you in on a little secret. the swing actually evolved from the miniboss and another saddle. you will be getting a good saddle if you swing it.


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## tree md (May 25, 2010)

Kind of funny you mention that OD. One thing I have noticed since I have gone with the stiff batten seat is my hips no longer hurt. When I used a butt strap/seat sling saddle my hips would hurt after long hours in it. No more soreness with the stiff seat.


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## Tree Machine (May 25, 2010)

I'm a major batten seat saddle kinda guy. Like tree MD says, there is no problem getting around, and as OldDirty says, someone started a rumor..... actually, I think it is just a commonly held misinformation that somehow a stiff-seat saddle it more restrictive than a leg-strap saddle. 

I'll tell ya what restricts my movement, having leg straps chafe my thighs and the straps pulling up into my nuts. THAT restricts what I can do. I find that when climbing with leg-strap saddles I have to climb and accommodate the saddle where with a butt-board seat, I can do anything I want because straps aren't getting yanked up into places they shouldn't be.

With a batten board saddle, the pulling forces come from under your rump, and the leg straps just work to hold the batten in place- under your rump.

Below is a recent picture. Old, Buckingham versatile, a years-old, thoroughly beaten warrior, and in behind it a virgin Sequoia Swing by Petzl. The new saddle has been in there over a month and I have yet to open it up and de-flower it properly. I'm mildly apprehensive.


I try to imagine a saddle that will perform better than what I'm currently using. Mine just needs to be retired properly, so I had to choose something new and I don't like going the same route. After having tried a number of leg-strap saddles, I just can't go that way. They were just uncomfortable, like I don't know how climbing professionals do it. Ya just put up with it, I guess.

I like to go home at the end of the day with all testes intact. I just have to assume others deal with the pinching of the nads and just don't say anything about it. For me, a bosun seat saddle is the clear and undisputed choice. There are just very few to choose from.


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## D Mc (May 25, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> After having tried a number of leg-strap saddles, I just can't go that way. They were just uncomfortable, like I don't know how climbing professionals do it. Ya just put up with it, I guess.
> 
> I just have to assume others deal with the pinching of the nads and just don't say anything about it. For me, a bosun seat saddle is the clear and undisputed choice.



So everybody who climbs in a leg strap saddle spends their whole day getting their balls crushed and are too stupid to realize if they switched to a bosun seat saddle, that all of a sudden life would be great?

Really?

What you stated is a reality for you. But for many others a proper fitting leg strap saddle is entirely comfortable and practical for doing tree work. I started off with a Bry-Dan saddle, these were custom made saddles to each individual at that time. Very specific fit requirements. You could climb all day, doing whatever the job required and, most of the time, not even realize you were wearing a saddle. My Petzl Sequoia has been adjusted for my body type in the same manner. I have no discomfort and total mobility.

I repeat, saddles are an integral part of a climbing system and body type. If everybody climbed exactly the same, with exactly the same body types, we would all be using one type of saddle. 

That's not the case.

Dave


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## Tree Machine (May 26, 2010)

D Mc said:


> So everybody who climbs in a leg strap saddle spends their whole day getting their balls crushed and are too stupid to realize if they switched to a bosun seat saddle, that all of a sudden life would be great?
> 
> Really?



Yea, that's basically it, only without the sarcastic edge.

Probably not 'everybody', and you don't spend all day getting your balls crushed; just annoying moments. Maybe after a few good footlocks you have to stop and pull a strap down out of your crotch. If you have to do this ONCE, you will eventually have to have done this thousands of times.

And most often it is not a ball-crusher, but rather an uncomfortable pressure, or a pinch. See, with leg strap saddles, most all of the support comes from the attachment of the leg straps to the saddle. That simply means, without argument, that when you weight your saddle the bands around your thighs take most of the forces. As long as gravity is functional, and you're moving upward against it you have opposing forces, like your mass against those leg straps.

Of course, maybe this may just be a reality for me.

Anyway, on ANY saddle, your support comes from beneath, and the back strap is to keep the system balanced- unless you bust horizontal moves and you'll feel the forces then becoming shared by the back strap, or if you go inverted, you can make it so all the weight and support is on the back strap.

But for the most part, when a climber weights the saddle almost all the support comes from the leg straps. I'll share more details, but for now, is what I'm sharing realistic?

I don't want to 'promote' any one saddle or style or brand or whatever. I'd like to point out the plusses and minuses. We can then have legitimate information and make informed choices.

This false notion of a bosun saddle limiting your motion is what you hear from guys who have never used one. A casual comment, based on assumption, cast out there to our readership can be believed as truth by the reader. I'm not playing favorites, but I will take a stand against misleading or inaccurate information.


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## 2FatGuys (May 26, 2010)

Batten board seat.... leg straps... whatever!!!

The proper saddle is a personal issue depending on body shape, work type, past experiences, etc.

As a former rock climber (started a LONG time ago, when I was 15), I became acustomed to the "custom" fit of a tied swiss seat (WAY before the modern simple harnesses were available). The transition to tree work later was tough, since at the time, "belts" were the common (at least locally) method of tying in. I preferred the security of more than a belt. I used several of the early saddles (butt strap, seat, etc.) but found the leg strap saddles to more closely feel like the climbing harnesses I learned on.

My current "go-to" saddle is the Buckingham Master Deluxe. Properly fitted, I almost forget you have it on at times. I've never had a problem with the straps sliding up into the nether regions... but then again, I have thighs... not twigs (I used to race mountain bikes). The way the leg straps are made on the Master Deluxe, they are fully adjustable in girth, rotation, and height. If you spend a little time fitting the saddle to you, it won't shift. Yes, it's more bulky that the Petzl saddles... but I like the WIDE backband and the breathable padding.

Again... to each, his own... but I just wanted to clarify that if you have problems with a leg-strap saddle, you probably haven't taken the time to fit it properly.


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## D Mc (May 26, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Probably not 'everybody', and you don't spend all day getting your balls crushed; just annoying moments.



That describes a day in the life of an active guy wearing pants. Adjusting, hiking up, readjusting the belt, all things done as a matter of course when bending over, climbing ladders, etc. I'm not seeing a lot of options here, at least not that I am willing to take. 




Tree Machine said:


> But for the most part, when a climber weights the saddle almost all the support comes from the leg straps. I'll share more details, but for now, is what I'm sharing realistic?



Statements with this content are probably why you find saddles with leg straps so uncomfortable. Most of the weight should NOT be on the leg straps. When ascending the tree on rope, a good deal of pressure should be on the waist belt. A properly fitted leg strap saddle will allow the waist belt to sit low on the hips, below your pants belt. In most cases, this will also require shoulder straps. But the fit and balance point, between the hip and leg straps should be evenly distributed. This will allow you to use your saddle for more than just comfortably ascending or sitting between cuts. It is a work positioning saddle. Configured like this, it is very comfortable for actually climbing the tree. 




Tree Machine said:


> I don't want to 'promote' any one saddle or style or brand or whatever. I'd like to point out the plusses and minuses. We can then have legitimate information and make informed choices.



I have used bosun seat, butt strap and leg strap saddles. I choose to use a leg strap saddle, because for my style of work and body type, it is the most comfortable. I have nothing against the other styles of saddles and would encourage anybody to use whatever works the best for them. 


Dave


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## Tree Machine (May 26, 2010)

Those are all good points.

I have been in the market for a new saddle for about a year and a half. Mine was, and is just fine, but I've been in it 7 years and really would like to get something new, put that old stud horse out to pasture, so to speak.

I researched saddles and did some hiring of climbers who wore $500 saddles. 
I followed saddle threads and contributed to a few.
I've tried saddles on at the saw shop.
I've tried saddles on at the TCIA Expo and hung in them for awhile.
I was fortunate enough to have had an Ergovation loaned to me for three months where it did everything but rain duty.





The search for the ultimate saddle continues. Through it all, I have learned a lot, and though it took awhile in the Ergovation (a leg-strap saddle), going back and forth between them during a given day, I learned the intimate differences.

I wish I knew everything, but I don't. 

I really wanted to fall in love with the Ergovation, but I didn't. It was comfy as all get-out to walk around in, I would even drive between jobs wearing it. But climbing, I would just keep asking myself, "What is wrong?" Frequent re-situating the leg straps in the middle of an ascent, pinching, raw chafing around the thigh. I found myself modifying the way I climb to avoid the pain. You shouldn't have to do that.


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## Tree Machine (May 26, 2010)

2fatguys says


> but I just wanted to clarify that if you have problems with a leg-strap saddle, you probably haven't taken the time to fit it properly.


I can't count how many time I adjusted this and that on the Ergo. It is touted as being one of the most highly adjustable and thus, personally fittable saddles anywhere. I worked and adjusted this saddle inside and out. I really wanted it to work because I was looking to purchase and certain features I just adored. I will spare you the picture of the rub-rash on my thighs after a long, hot day in the canopy, though.

I have a question for 2fatguys. Here is a picture, a manufacturer's photo. I chose this saddle to show because it was my 2nd saddle in my climbing career and I used it for couple years. I retired it to be my vacation saddle, kept in Florida, and I use it when I work down there. I retired it early because I was so uncomfortable with the leg straps issue. The question is this: looking at the straps in this picture, on an UNWEIGHTED saddle, tell me honestly, where are the leg straps to go when the saddle is weighted?







D Mc said:


> Most of the weight should NOT be on the leg straps. When ascending the tree on rope, a good deal of pressure should be on the waist belt. A properly fitted leg strap saddle will allow the waist belt to sit low on the hips, below your pants belt.


Ah, haaa. This could be where I am going wrong. An efficient footlock keeps you sorta vertical, in-line with the rope, that's where I was getting the most problem. I was doing a lot of cabling in the Ergo era, doing a lot of sit-time in the saddle and yes, I felt the need to lean back to share the pressure between the thighs and back belt. It was unfortunate that I couldn't do the actual tree work, cabling and work positioning while leaning back. I don't work a chainsaw in a reclined position.

There is the chance that I'm doing it all wrong.

I'm looking for solutions.


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## oldirty (May 26, 2010)

you need to hunt down the last navajo miniboss, man. that saddle is legit. honest to goodness perfection, imo. it has that ventral attachment point you seem to love and it also has similar floppy d ring setup like the pinnacle, but shorter. i was using a rope for a bridge on those d rings but got sick of looking at it when hanging from the crane. i ended up using an old spreader snap that i bought along time ago but never used till now. works the balls.

i got the last medium from tree stuff.


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## beowulf343 (May 27, 2010)

Sequoia swing is very comfortable-but the upper d's on them suck.


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## Tree Machine (May 27, 2010)

I've retired a couple saddles with the single, ventral tie-in. I personally prefer a sliding bridge, which, is the only reason I didn't get a mini-boss. That, and the D's sucked.

I feel that Petzl felt the demand for bosuns on the increase and made an attempt to upgrade the Miniboss by adding a width-adjustable seat and a sliding bridge.

I agree, Dirty, the miniboss is a well-built saddle. I wrote Petzl a few years ago and asked if they could put a couple Pirhanas in place of the D-rings. I needed SOMETHING above what my current saddle had. I would be giving up the sliding bridge, downgrading form what I was using. I needed an upgrade somewhere. They declined.


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## 2FatGuys (May 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> I have a question for 2fatguys. Here is a picture, a manufacturer's photo. ....The question is this: looking at the straps in this picture, on an UNWEIGHTED saddle, tell me honestly, where are the leg straps to go when the saddle is weighted?



OK... I'll play along (even though this is NOT the saddle I recommended). I'm not going to defend this saddle. There's a reason I chose it's more thought out brother "Master Classic Deluxe". Look at how the waist / hip band cinches down on the saddle in your pic. When you adjust the belt tightness, it changes your attachment points AND raises and lowers the leg loop attachments. So for some body shapes, in order to get the waist / hip belt properly tightened, you are already preloading the "tender zones". With the saddle I mentioned, the Buckingham Master Classic Deluxe,









the waist / hip belt is adjusted independent of the hanging bridge (OK.. it's not a TRUE bridge, but the only name I could describe it by). So you can adjust the 8 tie-in points to be as close to your body or as far away as you like for your climbing style. Adjustment of this also allows the front attachment of the leg loops to be raised or lowered to properly position them based on your specific waist-to-thigh dimension. It's one of a very few that don't force a 5'-4" climber and a 6'-2" climber to use the same dimension. Another feature difference between the Master Classic and the Master Classic Deluxe is how the leg loop pads are attached to the leg loops. Look at your rear-view pic. the pads are sewn to the loops. As you move around and the straps move, the pads end up getting tugged around also. Over time, this can put them in "awkward" positions. Now, look at the Deluxe rear-view pic. The pads are sewn to webbing loops and the leg loops pass through them. This allows your leg loop pads (your foundation) to remain stationary as you move and rotate in the tree or up the rope. If your leg loops are adjust to the proper tightness, the pads stay in place and the "huevos" are not at risk.

Now, continue reading your own post:



Tree Machine said:


> Ah, haaa. This could be where I am going wrong. An efficient footlock keeps you sorta vertical, in-line with the rope, that's where I was getting the most problem. I was doing a lot of cabling in the Ergo era, doing a lot of sit-time in the saddle and yes, I felt the need to lean back to share the pressure between the thighs and back belt. It was unfortunate that I couldn't do the actual tree work, cabling and work positioning while leaning back. I don't work a chainsaw in a reclined position.
> 
> There is the chance that I'm doing it all wrong.



D MC explained the need for proper adjustment of the waist / hip belt. It is crucial with the leg loop type saddle to distribute the load between waist and legs. On the Deluxe, that is easy to do since the tie-in points are adjusted separately and can fly out away from (or pull close into) your body to adjust that "center of gravity".



Tree Machine said:


> I'm looking for solutions.



Solutions vary from person to person. There are some great climbers using each type of saddle. I don't condemn either type. I just know what works for me. [An interesting thing to note: the saddle you showed and the saddle I show are both made by Buckingham. The one I show is the "Deluxe" model. Do you think that, maybe, Buckingham knows the "Master Classic" could be improved? Hence... The Master Classic Deluxe! Or.. maybe everyone doesn't need the added features of the Deluxe.]


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## Tree Machine (May 27, 2010)

*Excellent post!*

WELL-DONE, 2fatguys. I hope the readership appreciates that half as much as I do.

I admit, we went off-track a bit (this is a sequoia/sequoia swing thread)
but the information there is gold to a guy who's really serious about this industry and hates the saddle he is in and doesn't want to buy a saddle with the same problems.



That's inspiring.


Maybe today is the day I pull the Sequoia Swing out of its bag. I just get a queasy feeling about it. It helps to hear that Beowulf finds it comfortable.

Any other report, Beowulf? You're a big guy, aren't you?


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## swede11 (May 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> I admit, we went off-track a bit (this is a sequoia/sequoia swing thread)
> but the information there is gold to a guy who's really serious about this industry and hates the saddle he is in and doesn't want to buy a saddle with the same problems.


I suppose this thread did go a little off track, but I've found it all useful. I needed to get a new saddle; the one i'd been using is due to retire. 
I decided to go with the swing. I tried it out last night, and again today. So far, I'm liking it. Unfortunetly, I haven't used a leg-strap saddle, so I can't compare it; hopefully down the road I can. But I think I'm going to be happy with the swing.

The strangest thing about it so far for me is the attachment bridge that allows you to slide a little one way or the other. It may take me a little time to adjust to that!! But I suspect I may like it, too. Time will tell. 

Thanks to all of you for your input. 

Tree Machine, if you do try yours out, please let me know what you think of it.


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## masiman (May 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> .....The question is this: looking at the straps in this picture, on an UNWEIGHTED saddle, tell me honestly, where are the leg straps to go when the saddle is weighted?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm imagining something like this:






Linky in case embed does not work:
Panic Pete


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## beowulf343 (May 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Any other report, Beowulf? You're a big guy, aren't you?



Ok, since you asked. On of my buddies that i work with picked up a swing a few weeks back, and after using it two days, went on vacation for a week. After some serious begging, some promises made, and some threats issued, he let me borrow it for the week. After probably close to fifty climbs here's my thoughts on it:

First off, i've been a pinnacle man for a long time and this is the first new saddle that i've given serious thought to replacing the pinnacle. But those upper d's are just too small. I hang too much crap off them and there is just not enough room. It is extremely comfortable, although it probably took about 15 climbs before it was dialed in and i was still messing with adjustments at the end of the week. And i am a big guy, this was probably one of the best fitting saddles i've worn-actually had to cinch it down. I wish the belt was a little more sturdier, the saw clips a bit heavier duty, and it came with suspenders (not sure if it's an available feature or not.) I also wasn't a huge fan of the batten adjustment-seemed kind of chintzy to me. I did like the extra two equipment loops on each side, could probably move the stuff off my d's to them if i went with this saddle.
My biggest adjustment problem was simply due to the fact that i'm used to a different setup on the lower d's on a pinnacle. I've always disliked bridges or saddles that i have to climb into. I started using the rings on the swing as i would the lower d's on my pinnacle (rope on one, split tail on the other to split the rope.) If it were my saddle, i'd get rid of the bridge and rings and put in maybe a teardrop biner on each side. Something that would allow me to bring that lower suspension point together when needed, but would allow me to separate them when i'm chunking. I did like the fact that the lower suspension points were up higher than on my pinnacle and made it feel like a second lanyard at the waist when chunking instead of a second lanyard half way down my thighs like the pinnacle does. Overall, very good saddle, just not my style.

(Sorry if there is any confusion-i can do it better than i can write about doing it.)


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## lync (May 27, 2010)

I have a like new (climbed 1 time in my back yard) Sequoia SRT size 2 for sale if your interested.
Corey


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## lync (May 27, 2010)

Sorry!! I missed the post that you bought the swing. Good luck.


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## oldirty (May 27, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> Ok, since you asked. On of my buddies that i work with picked up a swing a few weeks back, and after using it two days, went on vacation for a week. After some serious begging, some promises made, and some threats issued, he let me borrow it for the week. After probably close to fifty climbs here's my thoughts on it:
> 
> First off, i've been a pinnacle man for a long time and this is the first new saddle that i've given serious thought to replacing the pinnacle. But those upper d's are just too small. I hang too much crap off them and there is just not enough room. It is extremely comfortable, although it probably took about 15 climbs before it was dialed in and i was still messing with adjustments at the end of the week. And i am a big guy, this was probably one of the best fitting saddles i've worn-actually had to cinch it down. I wish the belt was a little more sturdier, the saw clips a bit heavier duty, and it came with suspenders (not sure if it's an available feature or not.) I also wasn't a huge fan of the batten adjustment-seemed kind of chintzy to me. I did like the extra two equipment loops on each side, could probably move the stuff off my d's to them if i went with this saddle.
> My biggest adjustment problem was simply due to the fact that i'm used to a different setup on the lower d's on a pinnacle. I've always disliked bridges or saddles that i have to climb into. I started using the rings on the swing as i would the lower d's on my pinnacle (rope on one, split tail on the other to split the rope.) If it were my saddle, i'd get rid of the bridge and rings and put in maybe a teardrop biner on each side. Something that would allow me to bring that lower suspension point together when needed, but would allow me to separate them when i'm chunking. I did like the fact that the lower suspension points were up higher than on my pinnacle and made it feel like a second lanyard at the waist when chunking instead of a second lanyard half way down my thighs like the pinnacle does. Overall, very good saddle, just not my style.
> ...





you make good coin. call up tree stuff. order the large miniboss for 250$. rings are just like the pinnacle. 

best 250 you'll spend this year.


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## Tree Machine (May 27, 2010)

Treestuff.com is where I bought the Swing. I love that place!


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## oldirty (May 27, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Treestuff.com is where I bought the Swing. I love that place!



tree stuff does kick ass. i just bought them labonville chainsaw boots and a sweet husqvarna rain jacket thing and some sweet gloves from them.


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## masiman (May 28, 2010)

oldirty said:


> you make good coin. call up tree stuff. order the large miniboss for 250$. rings are just like the pinnacle.
> 
> best 250 you'll spend this year.



OD, I did not see the miniboss at Treestuff. They have some old stock?


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## tree md (May 28, 2010)

The Mini Boss is a good saddle. I am with TM though, the D's are not big enough for my liking and it will need a little customization. Once you get it dialed in it is the most comfortable saddle I have worn. Treestuff probably sold out. A google search might turn up some results.

I really have no problem with what anyone else wears to work in. If leg loops tickle your fancy then more power to ya. I have just sat by for years listening and reading how leg loop harnesses make you so much more mobile and didn't say nothing about that. Realizing that batten seat saddles are becoming less and less available to choose from I decided to open my mouth and call BS before manufactures stopped making them altogether for the tree industry. The notion that they make someone more mobile in a tree is pure hogwash. At least for me. If someone else can get around a tree better in one great but they feel like some kind of chastity belt/torture device to me. And I have tried to use them. 

When I would hear someone say that the leg loop saddle is better because you can get around the tree better I would think that maybe I was doing something wrong. I had an employer buy one for me and have tried to use a couple of other leg loop saddles. None were comfortable for me. I went back to a seat saddle every time. The only time I want weight on my hips from the belt is when I am stationary, making a cut and lanyard in. Otherwise it becomes uncomfortable and makes my hips sore, decreasing production in the long run. If I am moving through the tree, ascending, rappelling, leaning into ropes to make lateral movements, I don't want the weight on the back of my legs with the leg loops. I want it evenly distributed across my butt. If you are doing heavy removals, having to spend long hours in a tree and lower big wood it is fatiguing enough. The last thing I want is a harness that is going to cut off circulation in my thighs, pinch my jewels and cause me to have to adjust my package every time I make a move. The very names sound different conveying different meaning to me. Something you sit in is referred to as a saddle and brings comfort to mind. Something you strap on is called a harness and does nothing to bring any comfort to my mind.

If you like a harness and can move through a tree well with one great! More power to you! But I think it's time to dispel the rumor that a tree saddle with a seat is cumbersome and imply that someone who wears one cannot get through the tree as well as someone wearing a leg loop harness. That is pure bunk and I've got 20 years tree time to back it up.


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## canopyboy (May 28, 2010)

I know they're more popular with the rec climbing crowd (in fact they're by far the majority), but even Wesspur had a guy on the front two years ago wearing a New Tribe saddle. I eventually got one of those. Leg straps themselves are loose in the design, so they rarely ride up on you. Leg pads are huge, and comfortable to sit in for hours. The leg straps also have a sliding D arrangement which is kind of like half-way to a full bridge arrangement. They're light, under $300, seem to hold up for me quite well, and they'll customize 'em for you if you don't like any of their standard models.






I think more people in the business ought to give 'em a try. But to each their own, right?

Edit: Actually, come to think of it -- if you want comfort, taking the lead from a bunch of soft rec climbers isn't that bad of an idea.


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## Tree Machine (May 28, 2010)

There's a lot of rec climbers that are pretty hard core.

A big difference is you don't see rec climbers with a chainsaw full of gas and oil hanging off their saddle, a rack of slideline slings, a Silky saw or two, various other biners, a belay device, ascender and maybe a wirecore flipline.

A climbing arborist kinda has to carry _gear_. And I don't mean a couple power bars and a camelbak. I mean _gear_, the stuff we use to make our living. Don't even get me started on gear related to cabling.

There was a previous post about how a saddle should ride below the hips. I tried that today, with an average setup of gear and found while climbing up through limbs and such, tending slack (on tree more than on rope) the saddle.... you guessed it... wanted to peel off. Carrying weight on the saddle is not really an option for most. Some of the moves we do, horizontals, negs and inverts, that saddle has to keep you in it. Any imaginable work positioning has to be accommodated _by the saddle_ or it limits you and you end up accommodating what it allows you.


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## Tree Machine (May 28, 2010)

tree MD said:


> I think it's time to dispel the rumor that a tree saddle with a seat is cumbersome and imply that someone who wears one cannot get through the tree as well as someone wearing a leg loop harness. That is pure bunk and I've got 20 years tree time to back it up.



Thank you for that. I can usually sense when someone makes the statement about bosun saddles limiting your mobility that they heard that from somewhere, but have never themselves actually tried climbing in one-- otherwise they wouldn't be making the statement.

This is year 17 for me, but only 12 years in bosun seat saddles. The first five I did what the harness would allow me.

My vacation saddle is a leg loop saddle, my rock harness is leg strap and my caving harness is leg strap. I'm thankful I don't have to spend much time on-rope on these, or carry much in the way of weight. In the rock and cave harnesses, there is no work positioning involved, no fliplines. I get into leg loop harnesses enough to feel some real clearcut differences, namely sweaty thighs and extremely frustrating inefficiencies with sitback. The Ergovation about drove me crazy with this issue, but it's just part of leg loop harnesses that you have to accept.


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## tree md (May 28, 2010)

TM, you climb too hard bro! If you could tie in at the point you are at on that one you could rig and swing much bigger pieces (if not the whole limb) from the same point!!!

Just kidding buddy, I have no idea what was under you or what situation you were in in that pic. Thank you for illustrating the point illustriously in that pic though. I would not even want to think about having to work in that position with leg straps digging into my legs...


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## tree md (May 28, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Thank you for that. I can usually sense when someone makes the statement about bosun saddles limiting your mobility that they heard that from somewhere, but have never themselves actually tried climbing in one-- otherwise they wouldn't be making the statement.
> 
> This is year 17 for me, but only 12 years in bosun seat saddles. The first five I did what the harness would allow me.
> 
> My vacation saddle is a leg loop saddle, my rock harness is leg strap and my caving harness is leg strap. I'm thankful I don't have to spend much time on-rope on these, or carry much in the way of weight. In the rock and cave harnesses, there is no work positioning involved, no fliplines. I get into leg loop harnesses enough to feel some real clearcut differences, namely sweaty thighs and extremely frustrating inefficiencies with sitback. The Ergovation about drove me crazy with this issue, but it's just part of leg loop harnesses that you have to accept.



TM, when I first started climbing in 91 every climber I knew was working in a butt seat tree saddle. It was about three years later that the leg loop harnesses started becoming popular. Believe me, I sure gave them a try because everyone else was but I always came back to my seat saddle. I do heavy work and the positions I get into a leg strap harness will flat eat your lunch.


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## Tree Machine (May 28, 2010)

Here, and don't blaze me because of the flipline not in use, or no helmet.
This was a much earlier day, 2001 as the image date says.





Very tight zone, sensitive vegetation, over a house, over a fence, big sandstone stepping stones, wires, this job had it all. Firewood blocked that animal down. Very happy to have the mobility and when the 395 had to be put into use and I put on spikes, glad the saddle stayed on me, secure.

I have no idea why I crowned out this entire tree spikeless. I guess a nice, high tie-in point and knowing I'd be spending a lot of time in them later, blocking down the stick.


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## Tree Machine (May 28, 2010)

Another old picture with a new caption. I don't know what point I'm trying to make. This was when the Fly had just come out and I was giving it an SRT run-thru. 

Again, no helmet. I was trying out the Peltor Alert headset and didn't have it set up for helmet.


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## tree md (May 29, 2010)

LOL! I'm loving that dude!

I have family in Southern IN. I'm going there in June for a family reunion. Would love to hook up with you sometime. I'd like to just run your ropes for a day. Maybe we can make that happen sometime!


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## Tree Machine (May 29, 2010)

I rig from up in the tree, MD. I've never had a groundguy work ropes, just unhook limbs. I tend to cut the firewood up in the tree. I know, non-traditional. Very small chipper and guys standing in line for the wood so cutting firewood is what I do. If I have to do it on the ground or in the air, I generally prefer to do it in the air. It's just what I've become accustomed to and I truly, really enjoy it. It means I can use a totally green groundguy and he has no saw duties, or lowering duties. Unclipping a rope is the responsibility, and dragging brush. This means I can use just about anyone.



MAYBE I'll be into the Sequoia Swing this weekend. Today was a sappy set of pine takedowns. I just did not want to de-virginate a new saddle in that manner.


I've been thinking about how to set up the Swing. My current saddle (Buckingham Versatile) does not have a rope bridge, but rather a heavy band-strap style bridge and I modded the front hardware to accomodate this band, and it has worked REALLY well for me, a lot of added versatility. I made it a permanent up-front piece of hardware. Permanent because you always need a connector up front anyway, so I sort of 'idealized' what I thought would give more advantage than just a biner, then I permanently mounted it. The first pic is the piece almost finished and dry-fitting it.






This second picture I added a horn for soft-locks, to aid in the use of bare-bones belay devices. The rivet through the roller was permanently peened and I've never looked back. This really worked nicely. I think I've used this for 6 or 7 years now. I may have to learn how to climb like the rest of you without it.





The reason I share these pictures is with the new Swing saddle, I will lose this advantage. Maybe someone can share a way to set up the frontware for the best advantage using the rope bridge. I'm open to ideas.


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## tree md (May 29, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> I rig from up in the tree, MD. I've never had a groundguy work ropes, just unhook limbs. I tend to cut the firewood up in the tree. I know, non-traditional. Very small chipper and guys standing in line for the wood so cutting firewood is what I do. If I have to do it on the ground or in the air, I generally prefer to do it in the air. It's just what I've become accustomed to and I truly, really enjoy it. It means I can use a totally green groundguy and he has no saw duties, or lowering duties. Unclipping a rope is the responsibility, and dragging brush. This means I can use just about anyone.



I do the same a lot of the time. I can totally handle all of my rigging operations from topside if I have to. I have used a lot of green guys as well. I just hired a new one last week but besides him my least experienced groundie has been with me for 3 years now. I take small bites when I have to but am fortunate to have guys that know how to run my ropes and allow me to take big pieces now (like I was taught to do from the beginning). I will often take big pieces and handle the lowering from topside while my guys cut it up and move it as I lower it to the ground. I truly enjoy it as well. I'd have to to be in it for as long as I have been. Sometimes it's the money but here lately it's just because it's what I do and don't really know anything else. I mean, what else am I going to do? Learn how to do another trade? Flip burgers? Work somewhere for a weekly paycheck??? I make more money at this then anything else I could do and after being the boss for so long I am forever ruined for working for someone else. I couldn't even imagine getting up in the morning and heading to an office somewhere to work for someone else. I make my own office in the sky...


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## Tree Machine (May 29, 2010)

You're my brother from another mother.


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## tree md (May 29, 2010)

Likewise!

Let's see, if I were to make a trip to IN to help TM what would I need... Saddle, climbing line, gear bag... I'm sure he would have a rigging line and saw...

Of course, I could just bring me, myself and I and run the GRCS from the ground on a bigun...


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## D Mc (May 29, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> There was a previous post about how a saddle should ride below the hips. I tried that today, with an average setup of gear and found while climbing up through limbs and such, tending slack (on tree more than on rope) the saddle.... you guessed it... wanted to peel off.



Because this is the Arborist 101 section of this website and a lot of new and young climbers are trying to gain knowledge by reading these posts, I will stick with this discussion a little while longer. 

Posting what appears to be definitive examples by misapplying information and products does not prove a point. My exact words were: "A properly fitted leg strap saddle will allow the waist belt to sit low on the hips, below your pants belt. In most cases, this will also require shoulder straps."

There were several factors that you ignored or misunderstood. I did not say "below the hips", I said "low on the hips, below your pants belt". This was preceded by the qualifier of a "properly fit leg strap saddle" NOT in reference to a bosun seat saddle. The two have entirely different design criteria. And then followed by "this will also require shoulder straps", in most cases. 

All of you looking to properly fit a saddle, whether it be a bosun seat or a leg strap...do your homework.

These are significant points that should not be ignored. The original poster was asking for information on fit and usefulness between the two types of saddles. 

Hijacking a thread with pictures demonstrating really bad form will be of little help in answering his questions. 

Dave


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## S Mc (May 29, 2010)

To all new climbers or ones looking to try something different, there are many styles of saddles made because of the many styles of work and body configurations.

That is the point DMc has been trying to make, which seems to be bypassing some. There is a natural inclination to feel that if something works for you, THAT is the best system to use. And it is, for you. 

There is ALWAYS a danger in misreading information and then misapplying it. Read and research carefully. 

David (DMc) has been climbing for over 40 years...more than TreeMachine and TreeMD combined. His years of experience and preference for leg strap saddles do not cause him to give biased advise because he understands the need of each person to determine which suits their needs the best.

Sylvia


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## tree md (May 29, 2010)

My comments were not meant to be a slight to Dave and I realize that he has twice the years in the saddle as me. He would be in the majority with climbers who do prefer a leg loop harness so most are obviously making it work for them. I for one am just tired of hearing it misrepresented that bosun seat saddles make a climber less mobile or are somehow restrictive. I have heard this for years with really no debate from the other side. After seeing the available choices for seat saddles becoming fewer and fewer I figured it was time to open my mouth and let the industry know that not so fast on limiting there production. If you feel a leg loop saddle is right for you then more power to you but don't say that we who prefer seat saddles are less mobile climbers. I'd take that bet with any leg loop wearing climber any day of the week.


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## Tree Machine (May 29, 2010)

> . My exact words were: "A properly fitted leg strap saddle will allow the waist belt to sit low on the hips, below your pants belt.
> 
> There were several factors that you ignored or misunderstood. I did not say "below the hips", I said "low on the hips, below your pants belt".



I took that to mean below the hip bones, but said 'below the hips'.



S Mc said:


> There is ALWAYS a danger in misreading information and then misapplying it. Read and research carefully.
> 
> Sylvia



Dave and Sylvia,

My apologies. I stepped out of line. Looking back on my posts, objectively, it just looks like I'm showing off. My bad. Please forgive.

I can try to defend why I chose those particular images, but there is no reason, other than that a spikeless, commercial Arborist can end up in an endless array of positions, and sometimes needs to carry substantial weight, a saddle needs to stand up to that. In repeating myself, regardless of body types, the saddle really must accomodate the climber, and not the other way around. Comfort is one necessary facet, but it's far from the only important point.

In a saddle which sits below the belt line, I must admit, this is foreign to me. It seems somewhat counterintuitive, but without my actually trying this with a saddle designed for this, I will not pass judgement. In fact, in respecting the experience of those with far more experience than I, I offer my willingness to buy a low-rider. I will put my money where my mouth is. Having an additional new saddle is not a bad thing, in my world. I promise, though, once I own it I will torture the thing the same way I do the beefy and industrial-duty _Versatile_. 

It seems you are not talking about a Sequoia, or a Sequoia Swing, so at the risk of a momentary derail, I will ask permission of the readership to invite you to spotlight this style of saddle. 

Is there a specific saddle you recommend, Dave? Please, assume I am a customer who has chosen, sight and price unseen, this saddle you refer to, based on _your_ recommendation, respective of your extensive career in the climbing world. I honor this level of dedication, so tell me all I need to know, then I will contact the manufacturer directly and order one. I am being 100% truthful in stating this, assuming it is not designed for the recreational climber. I am a working Arborist. I need a saddle to accommodate all that I do on a day-to-day basis. I hope this is crystal clear.

The stage is yours. Tell us about my new low-rider leg strap saddle.


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## D Mc (May 30, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> ... regardless of body types, the saddle really must accomodate the climber, and not the other way around.



Absolutely, this is what I have been saying. 

There is a popular poster that shows a row of normal forks in which one is twisted and bent with the caption "just because you are unique, doesn't mean you are useful". 

We are all unique, we all have different requirements in the jobs that we do. In order to become useful, we need to be able to exploit those differences to our advantage. 

This is the primary reason why no one saddle will work for everyone and, even among the many using the same saddle, you will find many variances in fit and attachments to assist that individual in optimizing his work. 

I wish I could tell you of a saddle that will work perfectly for you, but I can't. The bosun seat saddle seems to work well for you. You have a Sequoia Swing sitting on a shelf that has never been tried? Go ahead and try it. It looks like a really well made saddle. I know the D rings are small but the O rings on the bridge are rated attachment points, so that gives you more options. 

For you and others in experimenting with saddle fit, you have to understand that where the climbing rope attachs is a focal point divided by your waist belt and leg support system. The further those attachments are spread out, the more stable they are. Think of a spreader sling when lowering a horizontal branch. 

However, stability restricts mobility. For long hang times, such as cabling or crane work, comfort and stability is very good. When moving around the canopy mobility is required. So a saddle should be able to accommodate these different criteria. 

If you move the points of contact on your body closer together you will be more mobile. This is what happens when a bosun seat slides further up on your butt when you move throughout the tree. With the legstrap saddle, this is accomplished by the placement of the waist belt. The waist belt being closer to the leg straps will allow full movement with very little restriction. This also frees up the upper torso, even with suspenders. 

I'm sorry I can't be of more help on this. I have optimized my own requirements and have focused my research and development on what works for me. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily help anyone else. 

Dave


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## Tree Machine (May 30, 2010)

A number of valid points. Blanket statements that cover the world of saddles, in general.


> However, stability restricts mobility.


Stability restricts mobility, though? So a less stable geometry allows better mobility? I'm trying to not mis-read or misinterpret this statement, but have to seriously question this. I am not here to nitpick what you say, just get clear, understandable information on the table. 


> For you and others in experimenting with saddle fit, you have to understand that where the climbing rope attachs is a focal point divided by your waist belt and leg support system. The further those attachments are spread out, the more stable they are.


I feel in a bosun system, your focal point is not divided between leg support and waist. Ideally, you are sitting suspended inside a triangle, focal point of force at the top, the other two points of the triangle to each side of your hips, separated by a batten board to keep that bottom leg of the triangle stable and your hips from being crushed inward. There is very little involvement of your back strap unless you lean back, then begins a shift in balance from 100% support under your butt to a sharing between butt board and back strap. Horizontalness, however, is momentary in climbing trees. For the most part a climber climbs and work-positions more or less vertically oriented.

I also invite anybody to suggest ANY geometric configuration in nature that is more stable than a triangle. If you do, please quote and reference your source.



> I wish I could tell you of a saddle that will work perfectly for you, but I can't.


That's not what I'm asking. You're being invited to share a particular saddle, based on its own merit, based on what you just shared in the previous post. Specifics, not generalities. What are its advantages? Why might it be the best choice for a climber. Don't be shy, this won't be a flame-fest. This is an educational setting and I want to learn and then buy a world-class leg-strap saddle. I don't dog any piece of gear because I have a personal preference for something else. My preference revolves around specifics in performance, which includes versatility, advantages, safety and overall effectiveness. My impressions can only come after some real-live use. so,....


> The stage is yours. Tell us about my new low-rider leg strap saddle.


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## jsk (May 30, 2010)

*saddle*

I would live to know of a few good leg strap saddles that guys love. I have a weaver cougar with a bosun seat and I really like it alot. I would like to have a good leg strap saddle also. I lovethe knowlegde that vetran guys share here. I also love thae atatment that a older guy told me once. Pay attention I have forgetten more then you will learn inthe next year. I wish thatI had a local guy yet that was awsome to teach me more. I learn from here and books now and from expirence. 
jason


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## TreeLogic (Mar 2, 2013)

Been climbing in a Sequoia for years now. Just got the Sequoia Swing. Only batten style I've used prior was a Buckinham Traverse. Let me be clear that I'm saying nothing about batten/bosun seat saddles in general, as it seems to be a hot topic. I do not like the Sequoia Swing. I love the standard Sequoia. The Traverse on the other hand, was not a problem, because the ends of the batten seat had bends, that formed around your legs. The Swing is just a stiff board. My chainsaw strap catches on the end of it like crazy. When turning, i slide down the seat one way or another, never really getting a good balance point with the sliding bridge, except in the center. And when everything is adjusted so that the seat sits right, you can't wear the saddle on the ground, or the leg loops drop below your knees and trip you up. 

IMHO, batten seat saddles are fine. They're not my preference but I've seen some great climbers in them. The Swing? I'm surprised it has gotten the reviews it has. Petzl is an awesome company though. I cant tell you how many items i carry with their name on it. And they're sending me leg loops, so I can change my new Swing back into the standard Sequoia I'm used to.


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