# How to train groundies for using a Port-a-wrap?



## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2009)

I am having trouble teaching my groundmen how to "let it run" using the port-a-wrap. Quite frankly, I don't find it that easy to figure out the right number of wrap for the appropriate friction myself.

Right now, when we need to let a log run with a gentle stop, I am telling the guys to lay the rope in their loose grip, let the rope begin to fall, and gradually squeeze the rope until it stops. I try to make sure that they have gloves on, so that they won't fear a rope burn. Then I try to make sure that there are enough wraps to easily hold the log with minimal hand pressure.

This usually results in someone that watches the log fall for a while, then still stops it with a yank. Obviously, practice is key here, but I am looking for a training method.

How do you train your guys?


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## canopyboy (Dec 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> This usually results in someone that watches the log fall for a while, then still stops it with a yank.



Glad to know it doesn't just happen to me....


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2009)

I have found just leaving the porty in the truck and having them tie the rope to their waste an effective learning tool


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## WalterTreeCare (Dec 22, 2009)

hard to say......IMO, usually most medium pieces require one wrap, the most we've ever really needed was 4 wraps for chunkin out the big boys. There is a fine line that is best learned through experience, you want to let it run so the piece doesnt kill you but if you dont take the proper wraps itll fall fast and hard, destroying property and maybe pull a ground man straight to the trunk under the falling piece. If you wrap too many times then it wont run and might pin you or strike you. 
Somethin i learned from the "The Art and Science of Practical Rigging" 
(http://secure.isa-arbor.com/webstore/The-Art-and-Science-of-Practical-Rigging-DVD-P268C52.aspx), was to attach a rigging block where you would normally attach your Port-o-wrap, and attach your port-o-wrap to a different tree nearby. That way you get even more rope in the system to absorb the load and if something crazy happens or somebody does something stupid to get tangled in ropes, they wont get yanked to the danger zone. 
Port o Wraps are not indestructible. We roped out a piece that was way too big, came down on the portowrap and completely ripped off that big steel ring piece right off the main tube:censored:. Be careful out there.


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## tree MDS (Dec 22, 2009)

After all the years of dealing with insufficient groundmen I have developed my own system of survival up there, its loosely based on the idea that that piece aint moving and I wouldnt trust the guy down there to walk my dog, so I just plan it that way. 

Then there is the good partime help, thats always a treat. nice when you expect a big jolt and the piece just flutters down so gently. I've been working the ropes more sinse I got the bucket, I'm starting to get pretty good at it too, but I really dont feel up to trying to explain it here. sorry.


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## outofmytree (Dec 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I am having trouble teaching my groundmen how to "let it run" using the port-a-wrap. Quite frankly, I don't find it that easy to figure out the right number of wrap for the appropriate friction myself.
> 
> Right now, when we need to let a log run with a gentle stop, I am telling the guys to lay the rope in their loose grip, let the rope begin to fall, and gradually squeeze the rope until it stops. I try to make sure that they have gloves on, so that they won't fear a rope burn. Then I try to make sure that there are enough wraps to easily hold the log with minimal hand pressure.
> 
> ...



This is odd to me so perhaps I have been lucky with my crew. I would suggest that confidence and practise are key ingredients to improvement in any job. Perhaps you should halve the size of every piece you remove for the next job or two. Tell them exactly how many wraps and buy them the stoutest pair of welding gauntlets you can find.



> attach a rigging block where you would normally attach your Port-o-wrap, and attach your port-o-wrap to a different tree nearby



This is a technique we use where possible and if another tree isnt available I bring my skidsteer loader in and use that as an anchor. 

Good luck mate.


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## Grace Tree (Dec 22, 2009)

Good luck. Back when we were doing all our tree work on a volunteer basis we had to try and train guys who'd never done any form of tree work. It got so frustrating with the port-a-wrap that we finally gave up and went to a Hobbs and then later a GRCS. Even with the correct number of wraps on the porty, they got distracted by the movement of the device when the rope slacked and would snub everything up. It just got too hard trying to teach and when we switched to a bollard most of the problems went away. One thing we did find out was that some people never get it and some just have a natural aptitude. Among the volunteer ranks the worst learners were former executives. They just wouldn't take directions well.
Regards,
Phil


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## Tree Pig (Dec 22, 2009)

Holy crap, who are you guys hiring, I never thought the port a was all that hard to use or explain. I would say the most common problem is probably people taking too many wraps on the porty. Someone else mentioned it above but, very seldom and only on larger pieces do you really need more then one wrap.







Here put this sign on the job site maybe it will help


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 22, 2009)

Perhaps explaining it like brakes on a car, were you need to stop without sloshing coffee and passengers around.

Finesse is difficult to teach.


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## Grace Tree (Dec 22, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Perhaps explaining it like brakes on a car, were you need to stop without sloshing coffee and passengers around.
> 
> Finesse is difficult to teach.


That's a great way to explain it. I'll have to remember that. 
Phil


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## treemandan (Dec 22, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Perhaps explaining it like brakes on a car, were you need to stop without sloshing coffee and passengers around.
> 
> Finesse is difficult to teach.



That's the ticket and you can't teach finesse. One needs to be able to figure out how to work the thing by hisself. It does take a good amount to be able to lower stuff. Its not a job for sleepy people.


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## treesquirrel (Dec 22, 2009)

you take the port a wrap, attach it to a saddle the groundie is wearing as if he were using it as a brake to lower himself. then you tie a rope to your bumper. wrap the rope around the port a wrap. get into your truck and tell the groundie that when you start driving too fast to "let it run".

That should get the point across. quite well.


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## D Mc (Dec 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Quite frankly, I don't find it that easy to figure out the right number of wrap for the appropriate friction myself.



It is mighty hard to teach what you don't know. The Port-a-Wrap is a vast improvement over taking trunk wraps in its consistency. Whereas there is no magic to lowering with it, like most everything else we do, it is a progressive skill. 

Start easy, small stuff and use a good double-braid rope. Don't even think about using 3 strand. Start off with less than a full wrap. Let both the groundie and you get the feel for smooth running line. Progressively work larger. Mistakes most often occur from too many wraps, which make it almost impossible to prevent a jerk. 

You, as a climber, have to be confident of judging the weight of the piece in order to give your ground person the confidence they need to perform their job. For instance, I will often vocalize if the initial drop is going to create a heavy feel but that the piece is actually no heavier than the previous piece.

You need to develop some level of trust with your ground person for them to be relaxed enough to do a good job for you. 

Dave


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## IcePick (Dec 22, 2009)

The finese in operating a port a wrap is VITAL. I'll be on that thing all day long with someone else up in the bucket and I won't say a word nor will one be spoken to me all day, it's like magic, f...... ice capades, it's beautiful. 

I'll teach your crew...sixty five an hour I charge for a demo. PM me. Thanks.


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## Sparky8370 (Dec 22, 2009)

I've never run one. I've never seen one. But, if it's what I think it is, I bet I could run it without you saying a word to me. It sounds like a tugger. I am an electrician. When we have a big pull, we use a tugger. It's an electric motor with a gear reduction and a capstan. Every 10 degrees or so it locks so it can't go backwards, and I think there may be a clutch in there because it never goes backwards. We usually use 3/4' rope with it.

Anyways, if it's what I think it is why not have them come to your house on their time off. Have a few pieces of varying weight and set it up at a tree and have them raise and lower the pieces and critique them on their performance. If you are right there with them, it will probably be easier to teach them.

Edit: Here's a pic I found on the web of what I am talking about. Is it like this?


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## treemandan (Dec 22, 2009)

treesquirrel said:


> you take the port a wrap, attach it to a saddle the groundie is wearing as if he were using it as a brake to lower himself. then you tie a rope to your bumper. wrap the rope around the port a wrap. get into your truck and tell the groundie that when you start driving too fast to "let it run".
> 
> That should get the point across. quite well.



That is probably the best way. Its not an easy thing. People think it is and underestimate what they have to do in order for it to work. You have to be very aware. 
I get annoyed when people ask me " how many wraps should I take?" Well if its not your first day you should know the answer yourself.
It doesn't take a whole lot of wraps to be able to control a sizable limb it just takes being able to think and do.


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## IcePick (Dec 22, 2009)

Sparky8370 said:


> I've never run one. I've never seen one. But, if it's what I think it is, I bet I could run it without you saying a word to me. It sounds like a tugger. I am an electrician. When we have a big pull, we use a tugger. It's an electric motor with a gear reduction and a capstan. Every 10 degrees or so it locks so it can't go backwards, and I think there may be a clutch in there because it never goes backwards. We usually use 3/4' rope with it.
> 
> Anyways, if it's what I think it is why not have them come to your house on their time off. Have a few pieces of varying weight and set it up at a tree and have them raise and lower the pieces and critique them on their performance. If you are right there with them, it will probably be easier to teach them.
> 
> Edit: Here's a pic I found on the web of what I am talking about. Is it like this?



No, the port a wrap has a way bigger motor on it than that.


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## treemandan (Dec 22, 2009)

IcePick said:


> The finese in operating a port a wrap is VITAL. I'll be on that thing all day long with someone else up in the bucket and I won't say a word nor will one be spoken to me all day, it's like magic, f...... ice capades, it's beautiful.
> 
> I'll teach your crew...sixty five an hour I charge for a demo. PM me. Thanks.



Absolutely!


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## lumberjack333 (Dec 22, 2009)

IcePick said:


> No, the port a wrap has a way bigger motor on it than that.



Bwahahahaha!:agree2:


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## Sparky8370 (Dec 22, 2009)

lumberjack333 said:


> Bwahahahaha!:agree2:


yeah, I did a search on it and what I did find just looks like a block and posts. Sounded like you guys were talking about a power tool. I bet you guys would love a tugger. It would work awesome when running a rope to pull a tree a certain direction while cutting it.


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## IcePick (Dec 22, 2009)

Sparky8370 said:


> yeah, I did a search on it and what I did find just looks like a block and posts. Sounded like you guys were talking about a power tool. I bet you guys would love a tugger. It would work awesome when running a rope to pull a tree a certain direction while cutting it.



Well, a GRCS is load rated for tree work, wouldn't a "tugger" get ripped to shreds, I imagine, lowering a 500 lb log?


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## Sparky8370 (Dec 22, 2009)

IcePick said:


> Well, a GRCS is load rated for tree work, wouldn't a "tugger" get ripped to shreds, I imagine, lowering a 500 lb log?



That little one I showed you is rated for 4000lbs. We use these and pull over 100, at times, of 500mcm copper x 4 wires plus ground. 500mcm is about 1" diameter. Sucks when pulling by hand. Sometimes we even use a wire feeder, which is basically two tires that pinch the wire and rotate to feed it.


On edit: But yes you are right, not rated for the work. I would love to try it though. Wish I had 7 grand to get a good tugger. If I ever do, I'll have my cousins try it on some trees.


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## lumberjack333 (Dec 22, 2009)

A tuggers made for tugging wire through conduit at a steady rate.. I don't know how well it would take to shock loading some of the bigger wood that tends to fly around on tree jobs. And if I was pulling a tree over, I'd want something anchored into a closed system with not chance of it slipping backwards or off the cap. I would sooner tie it to my truck and throw some redirects in the mix than anchor a tugger to... something and fumble with wraps on a cap. 

Put it this way, if that thing slips while pulling wire, the wire stops. It doesn't go flying out the back end of the conduit and crush poor Billy who though he was standing in a relatively safe spot.


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## EdenT (Dec 23, 2009)

This is a tricky thing for ground people to learn if they have never seen it done. They always think they have to stop the wood falling.

I would rig a log with a sling and pulley to the branch of a tree. To add reality put in another pulley higher and belay the log a little higher and off the center of the fall to the lowering rope. Drop the belay rope to indicate the section has been cut. Explain to them the shock part. Because you are on the ground during this practice run you can show them exactly what you are trying to achieve. When they are getting confident increase the size of the log.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 23, 2009)

I learned using a friction cat head like this, when I was 14.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 23, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I communicate with the person on the port-a-wrap telling them how many wraps to take and rather to let it run or not. If I'm working from the bucket I'll often take the port-a-wrap up and rig from the tree. The port-a-wrap is easy to tie off for use in the tree and it eliminates the 2X load the rigging point in the tree sees.
> 
> As for a cheap sling for a port-a-wrap I sometime use a 12ft. piece of 5/8 inch bull rope with a large eye bowline tied to the port-a-wrap anchored to the tree with a cow hitch. The bowline is tied in a length that puts the knot on the back side of the anchor point to get more strength out of the rope....and to keep the knot away from the front loop of the cow hitch.


I rig from the tree many times as well until the big big stuff but of course that is what the groundy's don't get right lol. We need a bungy sling lol, a highly rated shock absorbing sling.There is another million dollar idea for someone to make.


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## pdqdl (Dec 23, 2009)

Perhaps I was vague when I posted my question. My concern is not how to run a port-a-wrap. I got that part figured out nicely, thank you. I'm a pretty bright fellow, and I think my problem may be that I don't communicate too well with my employees, some of which may not hear (or understand) so well. _(I was obliged by my innate good manners from being more abusive when referring to their talents)_

You can explain until you are blue in the face how to do something, and you can train for an unpredictable amount of time until somebody finally figures it out. My goal is to minimize the amount of time lost in training, and to maximize the training benefit.

It is obvious that learning the amount of wraps can only come with experience with many drops of many different conditions. My issue is with the actual technique of squeezing off stopping the load gently, rather than with a yank. I have experimented with more wraps and less hand pressure required, and fewer wraps and risking rope burns, and I have not concluded that either method leads to more predictable "runs". So far, everybody still stops it with a yank.

I am considering trying to train them to give it friction only until after it slams back into the trunk, then apply the full brakes. Comments?

After we get that figured out, then we need to get them trained in the complex art of dropping the log at the apogee of the swing to miss the stuff below...


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## tree MDS (Dec 23, 2009)

I pull real tight, then sort of help the rope lunge forward into the porty just as the hinge starts to break, then stop it accordingly. Its too late after it hits the trunk. Works for me anyway.


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## tree MDS (Dec 23, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I pull real tight, then sort of help the rope lunge forward into the porty just as the hinge starts to break, then stop it accordingly. Its too late after it hits the trunk. Works for me anyway.



Or maybe I mean a little after the hinge starts to break...but before the rope sees full tention.

This sort of reminds me of trying to explain to someone how to run my backhoe.  

I am trying to help though. really.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 23, 2009)

hey you know what I was saying about the brakes and finesse 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-B5yyXF2WU

<object width="500" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S-B5yyXF2WU&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S-B5yyXF2WU&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="405"></embed></object>


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## lumberjack333 (Dec 23, 2009)

Ahahaha, I can't imagine what the steam musta smelled like!


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## pdqdl (Dec 24, 2009)

I think I'll play that video next time we go out with the port-a-wrap. 

That really does explain the problem pretty well. How did you find that one?


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## Tree Pig (Dec 24, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> hey you know what I was saying about the brakes and finesse
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-B5yyXF2WU



I wish I could rep you that video was priceless


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 24, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I think I'll play that video next time we go out with the port-a-wrap.
> 
> That really does explain the problem pretty well. How did you find that one?


LOL, well I spend endless hours day and night, looking for means to entertain. 


Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I wish I could rep you that video was priceless


 and thats what I do it for, thanks for the thought.

and on that note, heres a another lesson. in finesse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njN8byEUB2w

of course sometimes no matter how agile Physics just mucks it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO9uWBA0CsY


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## pdqdl (Dec 24, 2009)

BTW: here is drunken farmer Bob with the pig slop video and a really good view of the interior of the truck while it happened: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qfX6xdoPbM&NR=1


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## lego1970 (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm used to taking wraps around a tree. I've only used the port a wrap twice and probably because it's new to me, I hated it, however with most things the more exposure I'm given the more my understanding and confidence grows. For me the "seven times" training rule seems to work best. I try to use that when reading about a subject like Chemistry, or Biology where I can't even pronounce the words let alone know what they mean or when trying to perform a task. Those "seven times" give or take a few, don't have to be seven occasions divided into days or weeks, but should be broken up so there is a little time inbetween exposure for the person to absorb what they have seen and tried. First use on a smaller less difficult tree or branches with a large swing and drop zone. Example of "seven or whatever times",

before everybody leaves the day before useing the port a wrap pass out a picture of what one looks like to each member of the crew that has not used it (yes they will throw it away shortly after looking at) (shown 1) 
,at the start of the day before going to the job site (shown 2) then each person talks it thru (try 1), 
at the job site with the port a wrap hooked around a tree or in a truck hitch(shown 3) then again each person talks it thru (try 2), 
on the first few cuts the climber tells the groundsman how many wraps and either sets the slack or tells the groundmen how far to let it fall (shown 4) (try3), etc, etc, end of day.
Next time out do it again, picture, before going out, at the jobsite, during the job. 

By the second job useing the port a wrap there should be plenty more then 7 exposures/trials and the groundsman should be able to make judgement on his own. 

From an economic standpoint I don't know what that type of training would cost but most of the exposure/trial would be given during regular hours anyway so it shouldn't eat into the man/hours or slow the process down to much. I think a lot depends on how dedicated your employees are to growing and learning new things. Good luck and the above is just what I've kinda done for myself when trying to learn new things.


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## outofmytree (Dec 26, 2009)

lego1970 said:


> I'm used to taking wraps around a tree. I've only used the port a wrap twice and probably because it's new to me, I hated it, however with most things the more exposure I'm given the more my understanding and confidence grows. For me the "seven times" training rule seems to work best. I try to use that when reading about a subject like Chemistry, or Biology where I can't even pronounce the words let alone know what they mean or when trying to perform a task. Those "seven times" give or take a few, don't have to be seven occasions divided into days or weeks, but should be broken up so there is a little time inbetween exposure for the person to absorb what they have seen and tried. First use on a smaller less difficult tree or branches with a large swing and drop zone. Example of "seven or whatever times",
> 
> before everybody leaves the day before useing the port a wrap pass out a picture of what one looks like to each member of the crew that has not used it (yes they will throw it away shortly after looking at) (shown 1)
> ,at the start of the day before going to the job site (shown 2) then each person talks it thru (try 1),
> ...



Good plan.


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## irish93stang (Dec 26, 2009)

maybe chunk out an 8 foot section on a butt log your workin on.. let it hang dead stop tied off to the port a wrap then show them how to let it run while you are on the ground with them. or start with a throwball to show them how the rope with weight on the end will swing.. kinda on a smaller scale.. then show them what rope burn looks like when your fingers look like wax


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## NCTREE (Dec 26, 2009)

that pig slop video definatly explains the definition of finesse:hmm3grin2orange:


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## NCTREE (Dec 26, 2009)

irish93stang said:


> maybe chunk out an 8 foot section on a butt log your workin on.. let it hang dead stop tied off to the port a wrap then show them how to let it run while you are on the ground with them. or start with a throwball to show them how the rope with weight on the end will swing.. kinda on a smaller scale.. then show them what rope burn looks like when your fingers look like wax



yeah if you want to get your azz handed to you when that 8 footer shocks the #### out of you then go ahead. you could kill to birds with one stone, teaching the groundie how to get punched in the mouth and how to let it run after your on the ground.


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## irish93stang (Dec 27, 2009)

lol forgot to mention chunking it while in an aerial lift... :monkey:


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## newmexico (Nov 14, 2010)

*I know this is a little older thread*

But I recently ran into the need to train the person on the ground and have been thinking of it. I've gotten some good ideas on how to train them to let it run smooth from this and another thread on the port a wrap. I was actually toying with the idea of getting a spar set up to this point, coming down off the spar and showing them from the ground. I don't like the idea of coming down off the tree with the top of the spar cut nearly all the way through; though with a straight no branch weight fairly fat spar I could leave enough holding wood and stick a little wedge in the backcut to make it safe enough. Then when on the ground pull the piece off the top of the spar while myself controlling the rope through the port a wrap.

green = lowering rope
blue = pull rope
pink =slings
the usual port a wrap at the bottom of the spar and the pulley rigged below the cut.

(maybe put a little shelf on the top of the spar below the cut and put a cup of water on it.... see if I can not spill any of it--- (could maybe teach me to let it run a little better too)


I know, not very repeatable or efficient.


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## ozzy42 (Nov 14, 2010)

I have thought of something similar.
Like you said though,not repeatable ,and not very safe if climbing down from the spar that has a chunk ready to drop at any second.

Could work if there was another tree in wich to rig climb line and a lift line from.
Just re-tie after each drop,then replace it back on the spar hook it back to limb line with poty ,and just reach over and tip it over,repeat as needed.

Bucket with material handler,and 40 ft spar would work good I suppose.
Spar and chunk would need to be spring pole like in order to get the point accross.
Let them learn to catch pc with minimum movement of spar.


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## newmexico (Nov 14, 2010)

*just need to work out the details*

repeatable plus it gets safer... and gives you practice in raising things.

I like the way you think


ozzy42
"Could work if there was another tree in wich to rig climb line and a lift line from.
Just re-tie after each drop,then replace it back on the spar hook it back to limb line with poty ,and just reach over and tip it over,repeat as needed."

now just need to find the two trees on my property to make it happen...


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## newmexico (Nov 15, 2010)

*good use of something similar*

One last post for me on this thread. sometimes it helps to see things at least for me. I don't know what exactly they are using in this tree but it seems pretty similar to a Portawrap. the last 45 seconds or so demonstrate fairly well --number of wraps is a big part of it. but when you've got # of wraps/diameter of rope/size of porty/weight of the piece falling all judged well; then -- Trust that device to do what it will, you get the wraps just right and then even just letting the slack out of the rope to where it doesn't have a dip in it from the person on the ground to porty'll slow that piece down. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SImom9cGpQc


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## himiler (Nov 16, 2010)

*Youtube*

I haven't found anything on youtube yet giving a good demonstration on the port a wrap, but it would be mucho appreciated for one of you that's got some good experience to post one. 
Dang I would even throw in a six pack of your favorite for helping the rest of us out!
Steve W.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 16, 2010)

My take on the whole issue is wrap the tree , the ropes are wiped out quick if you glaze them over the crotch anyway , so I keep it simple I say HEAVY OR LIGHT and hold the slack I want in the line where the work is ... I hardly ever "run" a rope except to keep trunk wood from parting the line only so when its hit the ground it doesn't run away from the tree or down a hill or situation where I have to keep it close ... The port a wraps and the GRCS are nice where needed but most work doesn't warrant that for me ...Just keep it simple and in as few steps as possible complex rigging is something that can't be taught without experience ..


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