# question about back cuts (Moved from homeowner forum)



## Johny Utah (Nov 8, 2011)

When you back cut how important is the height relating to your face cut? If you leave a hinge say 4" tall as apposed to a 2" tall hinge. Sometimes my 2" turns into a 4" by mistake or a sloppy cut. Is this dangerous or does it not really matter as long as you have a hinge that is a proper depth into the tree? My main concern is safety not how good my hinge looks afterwards. Thanks in advance guys.:msp_smile:


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## GASoline71 (Nov 8, 2011)

1" to 2" is ideal, and 4" isn't gonn hurt nothin'. 

Gonna move this to the Loggin' forum to ask the cats in there. Some guys there have forgot more than I will ever know.

Gary


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2011)

General rule the USFS teaches fireline fallers in S-212 is about 1" of stump shot per 10" of diameter. If you're cutting conventional faces, it should be pretty hard to get yourself in trouble following that.


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## slowp (Nov 8, 2011)

madhatte said:


> General rule the USFS teaches fireline fallers in S-212 is about 1" of stump shot per 10" of diameter. If you're cutting conventional faces, it should be pretty hard to get yourself in trouble following that.



That's what the GOL guy said too. Only he used 10%.


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## forestryworks (Nov 8, 2011)

If you're falling trees into the open, no need for a raised back cut, IMO.

Falling through standing timber, a raised back cut is a good safety measure; especially if you know the tree you are falling will brush into another and bounce a second or two before rolling out.

However, you get that backcut too high, it will make some trees harder to wedge over.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 8, 2011)

If you're using the Humboldt undercut, the closing face acts as your stump shot. USFS teaches stump shot on the Humboldt undercut simply because they don't know any better.


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## bitzer (Nov 8, 2011)

Take the time to line up your cuts and you shouldn't have a problem with an 1" or less. I shoot for even. My guess is you are not in any hurry to get the tree on the ground. 

I've yet to have a tree come back over the stump because of the hinge height and what the top is pushing through. Now lack of hinge, that might have something to do with it.


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## RandyMac (Nov 8, 2011)




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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Nov 8, 2011)

It depends on which style of face cut being used. Common 2-3 inches is ok. Humbolt 3-4 inches is ok. The most critical thing is to have a level back cut.


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## paccity (Nov 8, 2011)

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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> If you're using the Humboldt undercut, the closing face acts as your stump shot. USFS teaches stump shot on the Humboldt undercut simply because they don't know any better.



I think they do know better; they just don't want to try to teach nuance. It's the difference between "production" fallers and production "fallers".


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## Billy_Bob (Nov 8, 2011)

madhatte said:


> ..."production" fallers and production "fallers".



Talk about nuance, the above is quite a clever little nuance if I might say so!

I read a LOT of books and don't recall seeing quotes being used in that way before. You learn something new everyday!


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2011)

Thank yez, thank yez. Words are fun!


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## Jacob J. (Nov 8, 2011)

madhatte said:


> I think they do know better; they just don't want to try to teach nuance. It's the difference between "production" fallers and production "fallers".



Some do, most don't. I spent 7 years in AG, and met maybe three skookum cutters out of hundreds of agency guys. Fortunately the agency put the non-skookum guys where they'll do the least harm- made them managers and specialists. 

I met a falling boss once on a fire that had never fell a tree and had never even taken S-212.


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> I met a falling boss once on a fire that had never fell a tree and had never even taken S-212.



WHAAT? That's WACK, yo.


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## logging22 (Nov 8, 2011)

Whats a falling boss?


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## Jacob J. (Nov 8, 2011)

logging22 said:


> Whats a falling boss?



On the large fires it's a single resource boss-qualified individual that supervises falling teams bringing down the hazard trees. 

The purpose of the position in ICS terms (Incident Command System) is to provide a layer of supervision for field workers to mitigate span-of-control issues. A qualified falling boss is supposed to have some knowledge of falling operations and hazard tree size-up so they can provide somewhat educated instruction to falling teams. They also need to be a skookum firefighter type so they can work with fire crews, line officers, etc. to provide for safety in falling operations on the line. 

In this instance it was an individual (a timber sale admin) who was good friends with an FMO (fire management officer) who pencil-whipped his qualifications.


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## logging22 (Nov 8, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> On the large fires it's a single resource boss-qualified individual that supervises falling teams bringing down the hazard trees.
> 
> The purpose of the position in ICS terms (Incident Command System) is to provide a layer of supervision for field workers to mitigate span-of-control issues. A qualified falling boss is supposed to have some knowledge of falling operations and hazard tree size-up so they can provide somewhat educated instruction to falling teams. They also need to be a skookum firefighter type so they can work with fire crews, line officers, etc. to provide for safety in falling operations on the line.
> 
> In this instance it was an individual (a timber sale admin) who was good friends with an FMO (fire management officer) who pencil-whipped his qualifications.



Holy hell JJ. Thanks for the info. We dont have anything like that here. Just some part time fire fighters and wanna B's.


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2011)

How did that not get caught in ICQS? I know guys who have had their taskbooks destroyed because there were too few people's signatures in them.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 8, 2011)

logging22 said:


> Holy hell JJ. Thanks for the info. We dont have anything like that here. Just some part time fire fighters and wanna B's.



Yeah out here the big fires in tall timber can get pretty complex. Imagine if you will, a 22,000 acre fire in big timber and all of the snags and potential hazard trees have to be felled 500' inside the line and 200' outside the line all the way around the fire. I've seen as many as 16 falling teams in action at once, with 6 or 7 falling bosses. I spent 47 days as a faller on a 116,000 acre fire near Entiat, Wa. in '94. We even did "contour falling" on that fire which is where you fall rows of trees sidehill along the steep slopes to control erosion when the rain and snow comes. I heard later it didn't do a lot of good.


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## logging22 (Nov 8, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> Yeah out here the big fires in tall timber can get pretty complex. Imagine if you will, a 22,000 acre fire in big timber and all of the snags and potential hazard trees have to be felled 500' inside the line and 200' outside the line all the way around the fire. I've seen as many as 16 falling teams in action at once, with 6 or 7 falling bosses. I spent 47 days as a faller on a 116,000 acre fire near Entiat, Wa. in '94. We even did "contour falling" on that fire which is where you fall rows of trees sidehill along the steep slopes to control erosion when the rain and snow comes. I heard later it didn't do a lot of good.



Probably dumb to say, but thats a lot of trees. Any chance of saving any of that timber? Or does it just all burn up??


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## Jacob J. (Nov 8, 2011)

madhatte said:


> How did that not get caught in ICQS? I know guys who have had their taskbooks destroyed because there were too few people's signatures in them.



This was in '95 before ICQS was big business. Basically back then you only had your "red card" after you took the class. It was real easy for executive types to pencil-whip friends into desirable positions. 

The whole task book/ICQS thing didn't start to really take shape until after Storm King Mountain. It was starting to come down the pike in '93 but initially no one was taking it seriously, especially the old timers (guys like Randymac.) Then after '94 the bosses told us we absolutely had to do task books. Of course ICQS was still in its' infancy and a lot of agencies (especially state) weren't in the system until '99 or 2000. I have five years of type 1 experience that's still not in ICQS.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 8, 2011)

logging22 said:


> Probably dumb to say, but thats a lot of trees. Any chance of saving any of that timber? Or does it just all burn up??



Actually, the agencies here have been real good to do salvage sales after the fact. The real trick is keeping them small enough so they don't get on the radar of the big environment groups. The Tiller Complex in 2002 was a great example. The TSAs and fire staff kept it on the down low and sold a lot of good timber off that fire, probably around 600 loads worth. The Biscuit fire, the same year, was a real fiasco. By the time the agency satisfied all the lawsuits and environmental surveys, most of the timber was rotten to the stump. My cousin contracted on a big salvage sale on the Biscuit. He said they were cutting up to 80" diameter Firs and only getting one long log out of them.


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## RandyMac (Nov 9, 2011)

Things were different JJ.
It took me 45 minutes to qualify for the 48" diameter endorsement on my red card. Two weeks later it was bumped to 60". They had to add a second card for the vehicle qualifications, if it had tires, they let me thrash it.
Did I ever tell you what I did to the Ranger's brand new pick-up?


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## paccity (Nov 9, 2011)

do tell.


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## 2dogs (Nov 9, 2011)

Here are some nice backcuts.


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## paccity (Nov 9, 2011)

that's some some special cuts right there.:msp_rolleyes:


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## Joe46 (Nov 9, 2011)

paccity said:


> that's some some special cuts right there.:msp_rolleyes:



Wonder if your boy would endorse them?:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Joe46 (Nov 9, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> Yeah out here the big fires in tall timber can get pretty complex. Imagine if you will, a 22,000 acre fire in big timber and all of the snags and potential hazard trees have to be felled 500' inside the line and 200' outside the line all the way around the fire. I've seen as many as 16 falling teams in action at once, with 6 or 7 falling bosses. I spent 47 days as a faller on a 116,000 acre fire near Entiat, Wa. in '94. We even did "contour falling" on that fire which is where you fall rows of trees sidehill along the steep slopes to control erosion when the rain and snow comes. I heard later it didn't do a lot of good.



Wasn't that the fire where those 4 fire fighters were killed?


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> This was in '95 before ICQS was big business. Basically back then you only had your "red card" after you took the class. It was real easy for executive types to pencil-whip friends into desirable positions.



Ah. Makes sense. I wasn't in fire in those days. 



Joe46 said:


> Wasn't that the fire where those 4 fire fighters were killed?



You're thinking of Thirtymile in 2001.


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## Joe46 (Nov 9, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Ah. Makes sense. I wasn't in fire in those days.
> 
> 
> 
> You're thinking of Thirtymile in 2001.


Ah yes you are correct. It was in that Entiat area though wasn't it?


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

Joe46 said:


> It was in that Entiat area though wasn't it?



Different ranger district, same NF. Right next door, basically.


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## Johny Utah (Nov 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Here are some nice backcuts.



Are these pics from a blind man telling the deaf man that he made a nice face cut and now he can start his back cut.:bang:


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## Johny Utah (Nov 9, 2011)

This is how my father in law cuts down trees. He does attempt a face cut before cutting at a 45 down to meet his face cut. I refuse to cut wood with him. I tried to explain the purpose of bore cutting to him and he didn't even try to understand the theory behind it before dismissing it as garbage.:censored::bang::bang:


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

Johny Utah said:


> This is how my father in law cuts down trees. He does attempt a face cut before cutting at a 45 down to meet his face cut. I refuse to cut wood with him. I tried to explain the purpose of bore cutting to him and he didn't even try to understand the theory behind it before dismissing it as garbage.:censored::bang::bang:



That is the slopping cut. It has been discussed quite thoroughly on this forum. There is an expert on this method that shows up oncet and a while on here. 

The Thirtymile fire was in the Methow Valley which is the next drainage over from the Entiat. I do not think we will ever really know what happened. There were a few versions. The Forest Service is good at keeping people quiet on such things. Messages are sent out saying that you are not to comment or speak of such matters if questioned. Sigh.


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## slangegger (Nov 9, 2011)

Am I the only one waiting for Mr. RandyMac to tell us what he did to the rangers pickup?:msp_tongue:


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

slangegger said:


> Am I the only one waiting for Mr. RandyMac to tell us what he did to the rangers pickup?:msp_tongue:



Naw, but I can assure you that when he gets to it, it will be a doozy worth the wait.


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## Joe46 (Nov 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> That is the slopping cut. It has been discussed quite thoroughly on this forum. There is an expert on this method that shows up oncet and a while on here.
> 
> The Thirtymile fire was in the Methow Valley which is the next drainage over from the Entiat. I do not think we will ever really know what happened. There were a few versions. The Forest Service is good at keeping people quiet on such things. Messages are sent out saying that you are not to comment or speak of such matters if questioned. Sigh.



Thanks MissP. I went by the gravesite of one of the young men that was killed. He is buried in Roslyn. He was quite the young man.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Nov 9, 2011)

The thirty mile fire was a IC failure,bottom up failure.


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> The thirty mile fire was a IC failure,bottom up failure.



That is a gross oversimplification and shows no respect for anyone involved. You weren't there. Kindly refrain from the finger-pointing.


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## 2dogs (Nov 9, 2011)

madhatte said:


> That is a gross oversimplification and shows no respect for anyone involved. You weren't there. Kindly refrain from the finger-pointing.



I was hopping to hear what a bottom up IC failure is. It is not mentioned in the fireline handbook or the IRPG or even my old FOG manual. It's not part of the 10 or 18 either. I can't place it from the many ICS classes I have taken over the years. Maybe it got lost in a sand table.


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## 2dogs (Nov 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> The thirty mile fire was a IC failure,bottom up failure.



Scotty were you in the fire service or maybe a contract faller?


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Maybe it got lost in a sand table.



I bet that's it; I take everything back, including the part about everybody's moms.


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## RandyMac (Nov 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> The thirty mile fire was a IC failure,bottom up failure.


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

Joe46 said:


> Thanks MissP. I went by the gravesite of one of the young men that was killed. He is buried in Roslyn. He was quite the young man.



Yes, they were all too young to come to such an end.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Nov 9, 2011)

The IC bottom up failure is when a Squad boss is not really competent to be in charge of crew,lack fire management training for personnel safety. I was Battalion officer in a small VFD,IC was just starting to becoming the SOP in my area when I retired . The 30 mile had a lot of human errors that lead to death and injury.

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/documents/Thirtymile_Reports/Thirtymile-Final-Report-2.pdf


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> The IC bottom up failure is when a Squad boss is not really competent to be in charge of crew,lack fire management training for personnel safety. I was Battalion officer in a small VFD,IC was just starting to becoming the SOP in my area when I retired . The 30 mile had a lot of human errors that lead to death and injury.
> 
> http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/documents/Thirtymile_Reports/Thirtymile-Final-Report-2.pdf



I've tried to butt out, but you are no way an expert on fire, or falling or anything else. I doubt you even knew what a pulaski was until you googled it. 

I bet it was a very very tiny little volunteer fire department, with like ONE member. Or can you name the fire department? Can you back up any of your claims? 

Are you also a neurosurgeon? Astronaut? Former President? What else have you done?


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## Huskyman4k (Nov 9, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> Some do, most don't. I spent 7 years in AG, and met maybe three skookum cutters out of hundreds of agency guys. Fortunately the agency put the non-skookum guys where they'll do the least harm- made them managers and specialists.
> 
> I met a falling boss once on a fire that had never fell a tree and had never even taken S-212.



That sounds about right, there is an old saying
"Those that cant, Teach. Those that cant teach, teach teachers"

Give them a wide space, they are deadly


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Nov 9, 2011)

We had 10 members in the summers then a 6 in the winters. Idanha VFD ,Idanha OR.I was the only ALS medic on the department. The department combined with another after I left. I did logging when the weather would allow and did any work that paid money.Never to old to have multiple job skills.


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

Holy crap, who let "him" off the chain or out of the cage again??? Is this ever going to end, LOL.

I don't even have to name, names either, LOL.

Get Guido Salvage over here to clear this up, he likes his job, LOL.

Sam


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

HillbillyRN,

You look like you were a bull rider, pretty tough character you are. Where did you ride bulls at, I swear, one of my buddies said they saw you years ago on a bull, but they can't remember where. Tell us about those days.

Thanks,

Sam


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm annoyed enough right now that my good manners are a thin veneer. HBRN, I've read the reports, the book, and the training modules. I know the story as well as anybody who wasn't there can reasonably be expected to. I've made mistakes on the fireline, both as IC and as crew member. Fortunately, nobody has ever been hurt on my watch, and I will do everything within my power to keep it that way. There are places and times for reductionism, such as college freshman philosophy classes. Fire people are keenly aware of what goes on elsewhere in the fire world. We learn from each other. We don't blithely condemn each other via armchair quarterbacking a decade after the fact. At the very least, you could express a bit of empathy for those involved in the incident, especially the survivors. The dead don't care about your assessment. I can't form a coherent paragraph. Now look what you've done.


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## 2dogs (Nov 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> We had 10 members in the summers then a 6 in the winters. Idanha VFD ,Idanha OR.I was the only ALS medic on the department. The department combined with another after I left. I did logging when the weather would allow and did any work that paid money.Never to old to have multiple job skills.



That's cool, you were a Battalion Chief/paramedic. First one I've heard of. In California there is no way one paramedic works by himself. The hospital and the County get together and administer the paramedic program. Then the ambulance company and the fire departments work together and put the local protocols into play. Of course there is an ample paperwork trail. The ambulance company evaluates all new FD and ambulance hires.

Paramedic school must be around $20,000.00 and 9 months time. How did you pay for medic school?


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Paramedic school must be around $20,000.00 and 9 months time. How did you pay for medic school?



I know, I know, he logged veneer walnuts at 14,000ft elevation on the West Coast, with a MAC, back when men were men. He also made side money by being an authority and writing technical booklets on proper felling cuts, bucking cuts and best of all, Bonus videos on Assessing Hazard Trees and Limbing'em.

Then I heard he received donations from members of another forum to just leave, because their moderators wouldn't just simple bann him, heard he made almost $5,023, from that alone.

Thats how he made the money for Paramedic School.

Sam


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## 2dogs (Nov 9, 2011)

Slamm said:


> I know, I know, he logged veneer walnuts at 14,000ft elevation on the West Coast, with a MAC, back when men were men. He also made side money by being an authority and writing technical booklets on proper felling cuts, bucking cuts and best of all, Bonus videos on Assessing Hazard Trees and Limbing'em.
> 
> Then I heard he received donations from members of another forum to just leave, because their moderators wouldn't just simple bann him, heard he made almost $5,023, from that alone.
> 
> ...



Both dogs and my daughter are wondering why I'm laughing so hard. Daughter is staring at me.


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## paccity (Nov 9, 2011)

heell i'll leave for 5 grand. for a littlewhile.


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

paccity said:


> heell i'll leave for 5 grand. for a littlewhile.



I heard the other forum members not only offered him the $5,023, but they also got an attorney and that there was a pretty good contract involved. Little did they know that Hillbillyredneck, had already passed the BAR years ago and easily got around the fine print of that contract, and has begun assulting their inteligence once again.

Sam


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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2011)

I am still trying to decide if he's the world's greatest troll. Note that he has broken no forum rules, to the best of my recollection. It would be very hard to be that oblivious on accident. Even "pathological" would be a hollow excuse. This crap HAS to be deliberate.


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

Perhaps he is a poor relation of Buckaroo Banzai.

_Adventurer/surgeon/rock musician Buckaroo Banzai and his band of men, the Hong Kong Cavaliers, take on evil alien invaders from the 8th dimension_


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Nov 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> That's cool, you were a Battalion Chief/paramedic. First one I've heard of. In California there is no way one paramedic works by himself. The hospital and the County get together and administer the paramedic program. Then the ambulance company and the fire departments work together and put the local protocols into play. Of course there is an ample paperwork trail. The ambulance company evaluates all new FD and ambulance hires.
> Paramedic school must be around $20,000.00 and 9 months time. How did you pay for medic school?



We were lucky in the fact we were a timber town, The local mill and locals donated the money:smile2: Can you say night school. I was working with the local hospital and the local medical clinic.I was needed because of the 1 hour drive to the local hospital. Seen a enough to know it would have been nice to have a lot more medic 3's aka Paramedic's. My position in the department was basically the head of the 4 Medic 1's and keep the piece of krap ambulance road worthy,had a 2k budget for supplies and fuel,had to donate tires every year,surplus crummy tires were free from a couple local logging company's.Not a job for the faint heart types,had to drive 80 plus in winter to reach the end of the district boundaries.Rural VFD's are non conformers for sure,Our chief was a #### drunk fool. He was kicked off the department for wrecking the only pumper that was useable for fire suppression, he was snooker badly


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## dave1 (Nov 9, 2011)

*Can one of you guys tell me what a Skoo-kum is*

...........I had a very good friend that had a horse named Skoo-kum... Could it have ment Like KNOTT-head....thanks dave1


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## 2dogs (Nov 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> We were lucky in the fact we were a timber town, The local mill and locals donated the money:smile2: Can you say night school. I was working with the local hospital and the local medical clinic.I was needed because of the 1 hour drive to the local hospital. Seen a enough to know it would have been nice to have a lot more medic 3's aka Paramedic's. My position in the department was basically the head of the 4 Medic 1's and keep the piece of krap ambulance road worthy,had a 2k budget for supplies and fuel,had to donate tires every year,surplus crummy tires were free from a couple local logging company's.Not a job for the faint heart types,had to drive 80 plus in winter to reach the end of the district boundaries.Rural VFD's are non conformers for sure,Our chief was a #### drunk fool. He was kicked off the department for wrecking the only pumper that was useable for fire suppression, he was snooker badly



OK thanks for the explanation.


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

dave1 said:


> ...........I had a very good friend that had a horse named Skoo-kum... Could it have ment Like KNOTT-head....thanks dave1



Skookum is good. Don't know if it is Chinook Indian jargon, or Salish, or made up. There was a brand of apples called Skookum Apples and they had a giant Indian head billboard and the eyes moved back and forth. This was on North Wenatchee Ave. I don't know if he is still there. There was some controversy about it a few years ago.

Hey, I'll be like HBRN and google it and see if it is.


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

Wenatchee, WA - Eye-Rolling and Winking Indian Billboard

Sounds like they moved him. His eyes used to break down for a while until somebody had time and money to fix them.


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## stihlkicken (Nov 9, 2011)

*dont be mean.*

slowp, dont you know foresters are nothing more than road hunters with paint? just kidding.i read the bottom of your post lmao.


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## slowp (Nov 9, 2011)

Yes. A friend who logged (now deceased) had a rant about foresters "Flagging and Paint, Flagging and Paint!"
"That's all you people do, use up flagging and paint."


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## 2dogs (Nov 10, 2011)

stihlkicken said:


> slowp, dont you know foresters are nothing more than road hunters with paint? just kidding.i read the bottom of your post lmao.



Hey Dan!

Could I talk you into running a backhoe through San Lorenzo Park and the benchlands. I guaranty you front page celebrity status.


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## hammerlogging (Nov 10, 2011)

slowp said:


> Yes. A friend who logged (now deceased) had a rant about foresters "Flagging and Paint, Flagging and Paint!"
> "That's all you people do, use up flagging and paint."



Or as I tell the loggers I work with, "give a man a roll of flagging and he thinks he's a damn cop"

This is of course to mock myself


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## slowp (Nov 10, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> Or as I tell the loggers I work with, "give a man a roll of flagging and he thinks he's a damn cop"
> 
> This is of course to mock myself



I always had trouble with some loggers who did not learn to stay out of the paint spray. Some have clothing with green tracer paint on it. Sometimes they moved into the line of fire right when I pulled the trigger.

The smart ones caught on fast.


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## madhatte (Nov 10, 2011)

It's worth pointing out that us paint-and-flagging warriors get bored too... look at our vests some time. Few are without a splash of paint kindly donated by a comrade.


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## stihlkicken (Nov 11, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Hey Dan!
> 
> Could I talk you into running a backhoe through San Lorenzo Park and the benchlands. I guaranty you front page celebrity status.



any time. be backdown there nov 21. had a surgury on my right wrist.piece of my hip now in place of all carpel bones.also, I have a roll of " timber harvest boundry " flagging I am going to install in henry cowells.complete with fake thp. and phone numbers. my buddy who called the lowbed and had my excavator moved without my knowledge is in for a big surprise. lmao.


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## 2dogs (Nov 12, 2011)

stihlkicken said:


> any time. be backdown there nov 21. had a surgury on my right wrist.piece of my hip now in place of all carpel bones.also, I have a roll of " timber harvest boundry " flagging I am going to install in henry cowells.complete with fake thp. and phone numbers. my buddy who called the lowbed and had my excavator moved without my knowledge is in for a big surprise. lmao.



If contacted I will disavow any knowledge of this conversation. This forum will self-destruct in ten seconds.


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## 137cc (Nov 12, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> If you're using the Humboldt undercut, the closing face acts as your stump shot. USFS teaches stump shot on the Humboldt undercut simply because they don't know any better.



Your absolutely right, the govt. teaches stump shot because it sounds like a safety measure. It's better to be an inch high rather than an inch low and have the tree sit back. I cut all my stumps level with no stump-shot. In my opinion stump-shot is a waste of time.



forestryworks said:


> If you're falling trees into the open, no need for a raised back cut, IMO.
> 
> Falling through standing timber, a raised back cut is a good safety measure; especially if you know the tree you are falling will brush into another and bounce a second or two before rolling out.
> 
> However, you get that backcut too high, it will make some trees harder to wedge over.



I see so many people make the mistake of making their stump-shot too high, which results in the back-cut being higher than the top of their farmer undercut. Stump-shot will make it harder for your tree to hinge over because you have made hinge/holding wood stronger. This is another reason I don't use stump shot, I don't like wedging a tree that i don't have too. I see the stump shot thing a lot with wildland firefighters. And I've seen them pound and pound away on a tree that would have gone over without a wedge, all because they used stump-shot and left to much hinge wood.


----------



## stihlkicken (Nov 12, 2011)

137cc said:


> Your absolutely right, the govt. teaches stump shot because it sounds like a safety measure. It's better to be an inch high rather than an inch low and have the tree sit back. I cut all my stumps level with no stump-shot. In my opinion stump-shot is a waste of time.
> 
> 
> 
> I see so many people make the mistake of making their stump-shot too high, which results in the back-cut being higher than the top of their farmer undercut. Stump-shot will make it harder for your tree to hinge over because you have made hinge/holding wood stronger. This is another reason I don't use stump shot, I don't like wedging a tree that i don't have too. I see the stump shot thing a lot with wildland firefighters. And I've seen them pound and pound away on a tree that would have gone over without a wedge, all because they used stump-shot and left to much hinge wood.



nothing wrong with all cuts lining up.unless, unless, unless, unless, christ, nevermind.


----------



## thechknhwk (Nov 13, 2011)

This might be helpful for answering the initial question at hand. It is a good read for me, but I'm no logger.

http://tnvalleywoodclub.org/articles/PDFs/Tree_Felling_Presentation.pdf


----------



## wowzers (Nov 13, 2011)

I thought having your back cut higher was an OSHA thing.


----------



## Frank Savage (Nov 13, 2011)

The stump shot acts primarily as a stop for preventing the tree to slid back on the stump (or off it, just on your foot), esp. if the crown hits other crown up there or whatever. Also the last ditch for your life if you manage to pull apart the (too little left) holding wood while wedging (a bad and stupid thing. But may sometimes happen with dry and brittle snag). No matter the face used. With Humboldt and clear way for the crown, the stumpshot is not so much necessary, but it´s way better to have some experience to judge. With conventional or open face, no stumpshot is usualy a big hazard, unless falling from border of treestand into clear, like on clearcut. Someone who knows his wood and has enought fast cutting saw can prevent the need for stumpshot by making to move a tree on a hinge a bit thicker than necessary and chasing the hinge to prevent fibre pull. Good practice needed here.

Too high stumpshot (4" on 12" tree) is a perfect way to get an ugly, like spring loaded barberchair, period. But, a bit highrer shot helps to balance forces in the wood when bore-cutting leaner and releasing it by cutting a backstrap from out.

Quite a lot to consider to cover all variations (species, part of the year, health of the tree, usual manner of trees and usual strenght/brittlenes of wood in patch you´re cutting in...)-so until getting enought practice and feel, a 1" (for up to approx. 12" dia.)-2" (to approx. 30" dia.) is useful rule of thumb. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## superfire (Jan 10, 2012)

*Back Cut*

My old man said 3" on softer woods over 26" DBH, 2" on wood under 26" DBH. Hardwoods aint well seen in my neck of the forest. If she be spongey sloping cut and wedge the witch over.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 10, 2012)

superfire said:


> My old man said 3" on softer woods over 26" DBH, 2" on wood under 26" DBH. Hardwoods aint well seen in my neck of the forest. If she be spongey sloping cut and wedge the witch over.



Sloping cut? Well, here we go again.


----------



## Joe46 (Jan 10, 2012)

Just when you thought it was safe to read every post. That was a short lifetime ban.:msp_mad:


----------



## Joe46 (Jan 10, 2012)

Hey Superfire, What color wedge do you recommend?


----------



## lfnh (Jan 10, 2012)

Cut down, Short wedges.
opcorn:


----------



## Gologit (Jan 10, 2012)

Joe46 said:


> Hey Superfire, What color wedge do you recommend?



Quit that ! Don't get him started again.


----------



## superfire (Jan 11, 2012)

What ever you wanabe fallers. I learned a lot tricks from my old man that you keyboard fallers will never understand:bang: If you were even real fallers you would know what I am talking about. Got to utube and find out how to use a sloping cut to place a tree,real fallers use them a lot.Softer species of merch timber need more care to prevent fracturing. I wonder why my old mans cousin thinks this site is joke oh I know all the arm chair loggers on here:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## lfnh (Jan 11, 2012)

superfire said:


> What ever you wanabe fallers. I learned a lot tricks from my old man that you keyboard fallers will never understand:bang: If you were even real fallers you would know what I am talking about. Got to utube and find out how to use a sloping cut to place a tree,real fallers use them a lot.Softer species of merch timber need more care to prevent fracturing. I wonder why my old mans cousin thinks this site is joke oh I know all the arm chair loggers on here:hmm3grin2orange:



Well, seems like BC Fallers material doesn't think to highly of the slopping backcut.
Neither does Dent. And neither do quite a few others with a good deal of time behind them. That seems to speak volumes against the slopping backcut (aside from the geometry and physics contraindications of it being workable or safe).


----------



## Gologit (Jan 11, 2012)

*Hey!*

Dammit guys, if I told you once I told you a hundred times...it's not SLOPING back cut, it's SLOPPING back cut. Paccity is the only one who keeps getting it right.

Shape up.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 11, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Dammit guys, if I told you once I told you a hundred times...it's not SLOPING back cut, it's SLOPPING back cut. Paccity is the only one who keeps getting it right.
> 
> Shape up.



Fixed.
The spelling.
Not the cut. 
Can't fixed broke.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 11, 2012)

superfire said:


> My old man said 3" on softer woods over 26" DBH, 2" on wood under 26" DBH. Hardwoods aint well seen in my neck of the forest. If she be spongey sloping cut and wedge the witch over.



Wasn't your old man your boss on that maple clearing job? You remember...the one where you guys stole the wood from the landowner and sold it instead of burning it?


----------



## superfire (Jan 11, 2012)

Never work a day under my old man. I am desk jockey most days. Only recently got into timber falling,money is getting tighter nowa days.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Jan 11, 2012)

Just started falling timber but an experienced expert:bang:

Found this one under angled back cuts

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9XDHJxq8JqI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Found this one under sloping/slopping back cut very heavy instruction
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TCJnJLwNpEo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Really expected much more to choose from with this popular technic


----------



## lfnh (Jan 11, 2012)

superfire said:


> What ever you wanabe fallers. I learned a lot tricks from my old man that you keyboard fallers will never understand:bang: If you were even real fallers you would know what I am talking about. *Got to utube and find out how to use a sloping cut to place a tree,real fallers use them a lot.Softer species of merch timber need more care to prevent fracturing.* I wonder why my old mans cousin thinks this site is joke oh I know all the arm chair loggers on here:hmm3grin2orange:



superfire - tried to find anything on utube (assume you meant youtube.com) about that special cut and when and how it is used. Wasn't able to come up with anything that looked like it made sense (to me). Maybe I'm not searching for the right terms.
Looked under merch timber also. Nothing.

Do you have any links for this stuff ?


----------



## Gologit (Jan 11, 2012)

superfire said:


> Never work a day under my old man. I am desk jockey most days. Only recently got into timber falling,money is getting tighter nowa days.



I think you ought to stick with that desk jockey thing. It would be much better for you...and for others. Maybe you could show us a video of your favorite stapler. Just be sure to get it back down to your little office in the basement.


----------



## superfire (Jan 11, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I think you ought to stick with that desk jockey thing. It would be much better for you...and for others. Maybe you could show us a video of your favorite stapler. Just be sure to get it back down to your little office in the basement.



And this is coming from a arm chair logger LMAO 
I know what it takes to drop merch timber. If you are such a expert put up some real video sometime and prove yourself or welter off.


----------



## slowp (Jan 11, 2012)

I had to look it up. 

Welter - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Maybe somebody got one of them new word a day calendars?


----------



## Gologit (Jan 11, 2012)

slowp said:


> I had to look it up.
> 
> Welter - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> Maybe somebody got one of them new word a day calendars?



Either that or he's been listening to PBS again.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Jan 11, 2012)

superfire said:


> And this is coming from a arm chair logger LMAO
> I know what it takes to drop merch timber. If you are such a expert put up some real video sometime and prove yourself or welter off.


Where can we see your videos


----------



## slowp (Jan 11, 2012)

Multiple personalities? 

She was faking it?
Real 'Sybil' Admits Multiple Personalities Were Fake : NPR


----------



## T_F_E (Jan 12, 2012)

superfire said:


> And this is coming from a arm chair logger LMAO
> I know what it takes to drop merch timber. If you are such a expert put up some real video sometime and prove yourself or welter off.



Notice there isn't anyone else in this thread that talks like you do? And the ones that did are gone. There isn't a dam man or woman on this website that has anything to prove to you, and as soon as you learn to sit back and learn your place your gonna be a hell of a lot better off. Thanks for the good laugh before I head off though.


----------



## robfromaz1977 (Jan 12, 2012)

lfnh said:


> superfire - tried to find anything on utube (assume you meant youtube.com) about that special cut and when and how it is used. Wasn't able to come up with anything that looked like it made sense (to me). Maybe I'm not searching for the right terms.
> Looked under merch timber also. Nothing.
> 
> Do you have any links for this stuff ?




Could this be what he was talking about?

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e8yT9uzIvHY?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e8yT9uzIvHY?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>


----------



## Samlock (Jan 12, 2012)

Oh, Scotty's back...

Voi vittu, olisit voinut pysytellä kolossasi.


----------



## RandyMac (Jan 12, 2012)

Samlock said:


> Oh, Scotty's back...
> 
> Voi vittu, olisit voinut pysytellä kolossasi.



You can say that again.

tyhmä perse palaa


----------



## bert0168 (Jan 12, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> You can say that again.
> 
> tyhmä perse on palannut




There, fixed it for ya, (I think)..........:msp_lol:


----------



## 137cc (Jan 12, 2012)

*EXPERT Drew Finn and his SLOPPING backcut*



Gypo Logger said:


> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7rnon9_qAAg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7rnon9_qAAg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



I almost forgot about this YouTube classic.


----------



## palogger390 (Jan 12, 2012)

Enlighten me. How does a sloping back cut prevent fracturing? :msp_confused:
The only reason I can see that people cut that way is to be able to see if the trees is setting back on their bar without having to tilt their head.
I wonder how long I would keep my contract if I started cutting veneer cherry that way.


----------



## forestryworks (Jan 12, 2012)

Damn riffraff.


----------



## robfromaz1977 (Jan 12, 2012)

Samlock said:


> Oh, Scotty's back...
> 
> Voi vittu, olisit voinut pysytellä kolossasi.




Looks like he's banned again. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Samlock (Jan 12, 2012)

bert0168 said:


> There, fixed it for ya, (I think)..........:msp_lol:


 
Respect, for mastering the grammar! 

I like how Randy did put it, anyhow. 



> RandyMac
> 
> tyhmä perse palaa



tyhmä perse palaa = A stupid butt is on fire!


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

robfromaz1977 said:


> Looks like he's banned again. :msp_thumbup:



Yup. End of another Saga.


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

How in the red sands of the south can one question be blown askew :msp_ohmy: Sounds like the fox got into the hen house :hmm3grin2orange: Been enjoying the rumbles as guest. This site is hoot to browse. Guess I know how not to buy boots :hmm3grin2orange: I prefer the hand me down boots from some one else over new,got the money for new,just like to be a little more dollar smart. Never heard of this brand can not even find any good info online about themMore of a just for giggles when cutting firewood no need in the pencil post forest around here:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## bert0168 (Jan 12, 2012)

Samlock said:


> Respect, for mastering the grammar!
> 
> I like how Randy did put it, anyhow.
> 
> ...



True that!


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

Man you guys like beating man or woman up for some weird reasons. So what I want to know is what is the hair in the soup about this back cut :msp_confused: I known there is reagional styles of cutting for me I am clueless to what the great stink about the sloping back cut,There is a a pro or two that do it on utub:msp_thumbup:


----------



## Guido Salvage (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> How in the red sands of the south can one question be blown askew :msp_ohmy: Sounds like the fox got into the hen house :hmm3grin2orange: Been enjoying the rumbles as guest. This site is hoot to browse. Guess I know how not to buy boots :hmm3grin2orange: I prefer the hand me down boots from some one else over new,got the money for new,just like to be a little more dollar smart. Never heard of this brand can not even find any good info online about themMore of a just for giggles when cutting firewood no need in the pencil post forest around here:hmm3grin2orange:





WeirdAlWood said:


> Man you guys like beating man or woman up for some weird reasons. So what I want to know is what is the hair in the soup about this back cut :msp_confused: I known there is reagional styles of cutting for me I am clueless to what the great stink about the sloping back cut,There is a a pro or two that do it on utub:msp_thumbup:



* HE IS BACK!*

The last 2 posts from the latest reincarnation of Superfire/HILLBILLYREDNEC (he has so many smilies I could not cut and paste all 4). Very interesting that "WeirdAlWood"becomes a new member the very day that Superfire (the original HBRN) is banned. Look at the use of the smilies (in the title as well as the body) as well as the content. If you were a newbie, would your posts be centered on what happened on topics where someone else was banned? Would you be calling out others that you had never had any interaction with? Or claiming that Superfire was knowledgeable about boots?

I suspect that "WierdAlWood" is not aware that while he can claim to be in Arizona his IP address will show him in Prineville, OR. This time he is claiming to be retired, which this new user name will soon be. Off to notify Gary to shut him down again....

Some people never learn.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> Man you guys like beating man or woman up for some weird reasons. So what I want to know is what is the hair in the soup about this back cut :msp_confused: I known there is reagional styles of cutting for me I am clueless to what the great stink about the sloping back cut,There is a a pro or two that do it on utub:msp_thumbup:



What or who are you referring to on utub ?

Gypo, - come back on 16...


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

Hotsaws101 does a few trees in a few videos that are sloping for directional falling. When someone says sloping back this is what I think of.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

Specific link please.

Thanks.


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

Have not yet figured out how to link things from another area sorry. The video title is Side Stepping.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks.
Ok.
Let me look it up...


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

The Side Stepping Video by Hotsaw101 in the opening frame shows a conventional face cut. The finish at 1:21 shows the back cut parallel and above the bottom face cut (gunning cut) as it should be. *This is not a sloping back cut*.

Sloping back cut looks like these posted by others here as examples of that dangerous and incorrect sloping backcut:

http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/184831-6.htm#post3395455

http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/184831-7.htm#post3396533

Hope this helps clear things up for you.


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

LFHN wow those are bad! What is the issue with the expsert village guy? I am just firewood hacker and know better then to do the cuts shown in the exspert village video's. I had a friend who cut firewood for years show me the basics. Sloping and angle backs are similar in shape is where I got mentally goobered. I am fortunate nothing in my area is very big. 10" is old growth :hmm3grin2orange: I only burn wood in really bad winters.


----------



## Guido Salvage (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> Hotsaws101 does a few trees in a few videos that are sloping for directional falling. When someone says sloping back this is what I think of.



You may want to look up videos by highcountrytimber on YouTube. There is a fellow out your way who used to post here who raved about his abilities.


----------



## Guido Salvage (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> I am fortunate nothing in my area is very big. 10" is old growth :hmm3grin2orange: I only burn wood in really bad winters.



I think that HILLBILLYREDNEC cut all the big stuff during his gypo days....


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> LFHN wow those are bad! *What is the issue with the expsert village guy*? I am just firewood hacker and know better then to do the cuts shown in the exspert village video's. I had a friend who cut firewood for years show me the basics. Sloping and angle backs are similar in shape is where I got mentally goobered. I am fortunate nothing in my area is very big. 10" is old growth :hmm3grin2orange: I only burn wood in really bad winters.



Sorry, don't have any personal knowledge of that video creator.

Perhaps someone else here can speak with more authority on that.

Where abouts in Arizona do you hail from ?


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

Guido your off your blooming rocker:msp_thumbdn: Let the man or woman alone already,it is becoming sicking to read all the hatefull bashing of some one whom is not present to defend them selves:mad2: LFHN seems to understand the questions ask so far.


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

lfnh said:


> Sorry, don't have any personal knowledge of that video creator.
> 
> Perhaps someone else here can speak with more authority on that.
> 
> Where abouts in Arizona do you hail from ?



I a rubber tramp,follow the weather,not the type to stay planted :hmm3grin2orange: I have places to camp all over the US,just like the northernhalf of AZ.


----------



## Driver625 (Jan 12, 2012)

Rubber tramp?


----------



## Gologit (Jan 12, 2012)

Driver625 said:


> Rubber tramp?



Old PNW saying...some loggers who drove from town to town and job to job were called Rubber Tramps. Might be a leftover expression from the Depression days.


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

Rubber tramp is one who lives in vehicle or RV, AKA tire based transport.
Leather Tramp is one who carrys their home on their back,AKA Shoe leather based transport.


----------



## Guido Salvage (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> Guido your off your blooming rocker:msp_thumbdn: Let the man or woman alone already,it is becoming sicking to read all the hatefull bashing of some one whom is not present to defend them selves:mad2: LFHN seems to understand the questions ask so far.



If you are actually a "firewood hack" as you indicated earlier, why would you have every ventured to the Forestry and Logging Forum? Wouldn't you be more interested in the Firewood Forum rather than focusing on the last two threads that Superfire responded to?



WeirdAlWood said:


> I a rubber tramp,follow the weather,not the type to stay planted :hmm3grin2orange: I have places to camp all over the US,just like the northernhalf of AZ.



Same deal as HBRN who could never tell us anywhere he ever worked. Where in Arizona are you RIGHT NOW? 

It is all so plain to us, how does it possibly elude you? We tried being nice, but you refuse to allow us to stay in that mode.


----------



## Guido Salvage (Jan 12, 2012)

WeirdAlWood said:


> Rubber tramp is one who lives in vehicle or RV, AKA tire based transport.
> Leather Tramp is one who carrys their home on their back,AKA Shoe leather based transport.



Why can't you answer a simple question? What town in Arizona are you now?


----------



## Driver625 (Jan 12, 2012)

Is there a difference between a rubber tramp and a gypo?


----------



## WeirdAlWood (Jan 12, 2012)

Your just mad because someone along time ago said something about you and you attack innocent people with out cause. I know know nothing about your persoanl problems nor do I care,I am here for education not a school yard jock competition. I am on hear to learn. Who knows I may get into some form of logging before I am dead. You need to get a grip and understand your rants are becoming hillarious as a childs temper tamprum because moomy took away you toys.




Guido Salvage said:


> If you are actually a "firewood hack" as you indicated earlier, why would you have every ventured to the Forestry and Logging Forum? Wouldn't you be more interested in the Firewood Forum rather than focusing on the last two threads that Superfire responded to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Gologit (Jan 12, 2012)

Driver625 said:


> Is there a difference between a rubber tramp and a gypo?



Probably. :msp_smile: A gypo is a broadly used term for any independent logger. It's not a cuss word and it's not meant to be demeaning. I know some guys with 100 employees and several million bucks worth of equipment who refer to _themselves_ as gypos. I know some guys with one old worn-out pickup and a three year old 660 who call themselves the same thing.

It's an old, old term and you can get some pretty good arguments started about where it came from...especially if you ask the question to a bunch of gypos.


----------



## Driver625 (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks, I got it now.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 12, 2012)

I'm sure glad I miss out on a lot of the drama you guys have going on over here at the Forestry shack.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 12, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I'm sure glad I miss out on a lot of the drama you guys have going on over here at the Forestry shack.



Yeah, it took me twice as long to paint the kitchen than it should have. Had to keep checking in on all the latest developments.


----------



## RandyMac (Jan 12, 2012)

Alright, line up, who needs their ass whooped?


----------



## WETWILLIEWET (Jan 12, 2012)

There seems to be no answer to this question as the post count shows. What is clear is some like a high release cout and others prefer a lower cut. 2"-3" is just fine in my book. 3" inches is a good margin of safety on swell butts.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 12, 2012)

WETWILLIEWET said:


> There seems to be no answer to this question as the post count shows. What is clear is some like a high release cout and others prefer a lower cut. 2"-3" is just fine in my book. 3" inches is a good margin of safety on swell butts.



I got to see the women's Oakley beach volleyball squad practicing at Long Beach. Lots of swell butts there.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I got to see the women's Oakley beach volleyball squad practicing at Long Beach. Lots of swell butts there.



Rules, rules, rules or
it
did
not
?

:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Gologit (Jan 12, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Alright, line up, who needs their ass whooped?



Okay, I'll fight. But I want a nap first.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 12, 2012)




----------



## slowp (Jan 13, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Alright, line up, who needs their ass whooped?



I would whoop you with a handful of nettles....:smile2:

I spend yesterday afternoon trying to burn some chunks of wood with the consistancy of sponges, and miss all this? Maybe there'll be more to burn today.


----------



## Guido Salvage (Jan 13, 2012)

WETWILLIEWET said:


> There seems to be no answer to this question as the post count shows. What is clear is some like a high release cout and others prefer a lower cut. 2"-3" is just fine in my book. 3" inches is a good margin of safety on swell butts.



This has to be a record.... Skoty has now contributed his knowledge to this thread under four different user names.

HILLBILLYREDNEC
Superfire
WeirdAlWood
WETWILLIEWET

How has the system allowed him to open two new accounts in 24 hours after being banned? Is there not a way to block his IP address?


----------



## promac850 (Jan 13, 2012)

How about a bore cut, and then a slightly downward sloped cut to sever the 'tie' strap?

That's what I believe the tree service guy used on this tree...

[video=youtube_share;FO9jf1JAt1U]http://youtu.be/FO9jf1JAt1U[/video]

You can't see him, but he made a face cut kinda like this: > with a back cut kinda like this: _/ The horizontal bore cut was first. 

This was a slightly rotted out soft maple tree...

This was my neighbor's tree...


----------



## 056 kid (Jan 14, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Sloping cut? Well, here we go again.



The old sloping back cut makes me want to discuss and learn the finer points of sending the butt off the back of the stump. Is it acceptable to put the back at a slight upward angle towards the face? I have accomplished the task with face angles and a level back cut about kirf lower than the face cut. The results are not always favorable however, and I believe it is due to not getting the angles right in accordance with the way the trees is growing. . If I had to send them off the back like that all day I think I would just have a piece of aluminum stock to lay in the face until I had the methods down. 
So maybe this sloping back cut reference will scare up some interesting conversation anyway.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Jan 14, 2012)

> Is there not a way to block his IP address?



Residential IP's usually aren't static...business pay a good premium for that option usually.

Some companies set their dynamic IP leases are "stickier" then others. 

When I had my 3G Wireless Broadband, every time I disconnected the dongle and plugged it back -- even if it was just resetting it -- I would pick up a new and very different IP address.

Just switched back to cable last week, haven't played with that modem yet...but my experience last time (~5 years ago) was turning the modem off overnight would cause me to get a new dynamic IP address when I turned it on.


----------



## lfnh (Jan 14, 2012)

056 kid said:


> The old sloping back cut makes me want to discuss and learn the finer points of sending the butt off the back of the stump. Is it acceptable to put the back at a slight upward angle towards the face? I have accomplished the task with face angles and a level back cut about kirf lower than the face cut. The results are not always favorable however, and I believe it is due to not getting the angles right in accordance with the way the trees is growing. . If I had to send them off the back like that all day I think I would just have a piece of aluminum stock to lay in the face until I had the methods down.
> So maybe this sloping back cut reference will scare up some interesting conversation anyway.



idk, the weather, planet alignment, tilt of the earth, all that global warming stuff probly affects (or is it effects ?) the final outcome.

tricky to predict.

good to read bout the fishing. more productive venture, imo.


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## 056 kid (Jan 14, 2012)

i think you may be on to something ifnh.


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## lfnh (Jan 14, 2012)

least with fishing, ya can cut your losses on a hangup and just go have a beer.


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## 056 kid (Jan 14, 2012)

Indeed, though it's not like of the butt didn't go the tree wouldn't save out or anything. more of a making the job easier by pulling less cable up hill & hitting less plastic.. I have retrieved a few underwater tackle Christmas trees after repeatedly hoking them. sharpen the hooks and throw the lead and corkies in the tackle box and thats a few bucks of free stuff!


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