# Snap or carabiners



## futbalfantic (Nov 11, 2013)

For a flip line? Why?

Second note, why no screw gates for life lines


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## ATH (Nov 11, 2013)

I use snaps on the end I clip and unclip - I like the ones that take the extra step to open (slide piece down, push in back, open---as opposed to push back and open). Because the closed eye of the snap keeps the spliced eye of the lanyard in place nicely.

The end with the adjuster has a carabiner because the closed eye of a snap would not go through the ART positioner.


----------



## CanopyGorilla (Nov 12, 2013)

Screw gates pose the risk of slowly un-locking through rubbing or vibration. ANSI says only triple locking for life support. I use snap for flip line just cause I'm used to it.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 12, 2013)

Snaps, they are quicker. You can one hand it pretty easy, where as a biner, although can be done, sometimes ya gotta use 2. I have biners on my Grillion as it has fixed eyes on the line. I keep debating on cutting them off and tying in snaps. Most of the time it just sits in the truck and I grab my 2n1. Another thought against screw gates is that they if loaded against the gate, if the line is run through it and against the lock, it can unscrew. I have never had this happen and use screw gates on some rigging stuff. But only use triples for life support. Not saying that I wouldn't use a nice screw gate again. Used them for years with no problems as so many others have as well. Freak accidents do happen, so switching over to 3locks is just a force multiplier for your safety. I am sure you know this but just in case, use the aluminum ones. I have some steel ones and oh man! They are heavy!


----------



## RandomWoodsman (Nov 12, 2013)

I use carabiners on the components of my split tail and hitchclimber pulley set up because that is what they are designed to use also even with a traditional blakes set up ill use a biner because it slides on the bridge of my saddle better. I use snaps on my flipline because thats what it came with but im going to switch to a rock O carabiner with the removable lanyard pin. Doin this because i can get replacement lanyards for cheaper and not have a pile of snaps from old lanyards hanging around. I am able to manipulate the rock exotica carabiners one handed because they are a pull down and twist instead of a push up and twist.


----------



## Limbrat (Nov 12, 2013)

Biners are a pain in comparison to a snap when clipping and unclipping. I LIKE the weight of a steel snap on the free end of my flipline as I can flip it around the trunk much easier. Just watch your teeth! I have biners on the adjuster side of my flip lines, but they never come off while I'm in the tree. I have a bunch of locking snaps and use the steel ones for light to medium rigging as well.


----------



## miko0618 (Nov 12, 2013)

the reason you shouldn't use screw gate biners is because you will forget to lock them. a running rope can undo a triple lock and screw biner the same. the triple lock is auto locking. that's all.


----------



## CanopyGorilla (Nov 13, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> the reason you shouldn't use screw gate biners is because you will forget to lock them. a running rope can undo a triple lock and screw biner the same. the triple lock is auto locking. that's all.


Yes and no. A triple lock is MUCH less likely to be opened by a running rope and it is impossible to vibrate one open. Not so with screw gates.


----------



## Zale (Nov 13, 2013)

I prefer the snaps. I like dropped forged steel versus aluminum.


----------



## futbalfantic (Nov 13, 2013)

I was thinking of using a screw for permanent attachments. Like my lanyard adjuster


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Zale (Nov 13, 2013)

Screw gates are so 1980's. There are better and safer designs out there.


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 13, 2013)

CanopyGorilla said:


> Screw gates pose the risk of slowly un-locking through rubbing or vibration. ANSI says only triple locking for life support. I use snap for flip line just cause I'm used to it.



I have never had a snap come loose. I did catch my Petzl "William" triple lock opening up on me once. I caught it before anything bad happened, but it was a bit unnerving.

It was just the right combination of rope sliding past the screw-lock, enough pressure to give it friction, and just the right direction. The gate popped open, and it was my only attachment to the climbing line. Even triple action 'biners can fail. I suspect the ball-locks are much safer, but I literally cannot open them.


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 13, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> the reason you shouldn't use screw gate biners is because you will forget to lock them. a running rope can undo a triple lock and screw biner the same. the triple lock is auto locking. that's all.



Absolutely true. See my note above.

Triple locks are a bit faster, as well as automatic.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 14, 2013)

Wow, that I would have not believed, that make sense tho. I suppose, in the "perfect storm" anything is possible. That's where situational awareness comes into play. Gotta watch everything going on, all at the same time. I could see where that would make the nerves go wild. One thing tho for u younger guys, every time I get ready to cut, right before I start my saw, I stop and check all links. Make sure they are laying right and make sure that they are locked, no matter the type.


----------



## ckliff (Nov 14, 2013)

RandomWoodsman said:


> I use carabiners on the components of my split tail and hitchclimber pulley set up because that is what they are designed to use also even with a traditional blakes set up ill use a biner because it slides on the bridge of my saddle better. I use snaps on my flipline because thats what it came with but im going to switch to a rock O carabiner with the removable lanyard pin. Doin this because i can get replacement lanyards for cheaper and not have a pile of snaps from old lanyards hanging around. I am able to manipulate the rock exotica carabiners one handed because they are a pull down and twist instead of a push up and twist.


Your "sig" really should read, "a BAD day in the tree is better than a GOOD day on the ground".


----------



## RandomWoodsman (Nov 14, 2013)

ckliff said:


> Your "sig" really should read, "a BAD day in the tree is better than a GOOD day on the ground".


 Haha too true


----------



## woodchuck357 (Nov 16, 2013)

I have used screw gates on zip line cables so much they wore groves in the metal and never in over 50 years have had one open up. Theoretically, I can see how it could happen but have never seen it.


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> I have used screw gates on zip line cables so much they wore groves in the metal and never in over 50 years have had one open up. Theoretically, I can see how it could happen but have never seen it.



Using biners on a zip line cable is not anything like using them on your climbing rig, crowded together with other biners and multiple ropes, both rising and falling in the same area. Unless I am mistaken, a biner riding a zip line is only under load for a very short while. Things are a lot different when that biner must hold in varying conditions for several hours of climbing.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 17, 2013)

Word.


----------



## beastmaster (Nov 18, 2013)

I switched over to all carabiners several years ago. Those big heavy steel clips are just added weight. I use a i2i for adjusting my lanyard and a steel biner to secure it to my saddle,everything else is alum. Biners.
I saw a guy fall maybe 80 feet when he tried to reppel with a screw gate carabiner and the rope unscrewed it and popped out.
I am going to have some lanyards spliced with those alum snap carabiners on the end. The best of both worlds.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 20, 2013)

I just cut off the fixed eye on my Grillion so I could put a snap on it.


----------



## Guran (Nov 21, 2013)

Sorry guys, but what´s the difference between a snap and a biner?
You have to concider that I´m just a Swede.


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 21, 2013)

This is a snap:






This is a 'biner:


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 22, 2013)

Put that aluminum snap on my grillion with a buntline, verdy nice, verdy verdy nice.


----------



## Guran (Nov 23, 2013)

Oki-doki. Thanks pdql. Super clear now.


----------



## Iustinian (Nov 29, 2013)

Triple locking ISC biner snap. Light-weight, reliable, long-lasting, its use becomes second nature, and it aligns comfortably everytime. I've seen those aluminum snaps break at their connection point (with abuse of course) and technically they are not an ANSI approved device for lifesupport, because it only takes two actions to open them. I've actually seen a guy at a climbing competition who could flip one of those right off of your d-ring by flipping your line around. The ANSI update now requires two attachment points in the tree before operating a saw, and one of those attachment points MUST be a climbing line. So if you are just using your flipline as a work positioning lanyard then its still acceptable (to some people lol)


----------



## ATH (Nov 30, 2013)

The new snaps are triple action to open. For example: At Sherrill

Regarding the two tie in points...I don't have my ANSI book here, but are you sure that one of the two tie in points has to be a climbing line? Might be, but I don't think it is...I agree that you need 2 tie ins, but I thought 2 lanyards would be acceptable. I think where the confusion may be is that you can't use a single 2-1 lanyard with both ends connected and call that a second tie in point. But maybe I'm wrong - again, can't look it up right now.


----------



## Nemus Talea (Nov 30, 2013)

I would imagine the safety rangers would want one tie in to be climb line so in an emergency ya just dump lanyard and then all the way to the ground you go.
Required...?


----------



## sgreanbeans (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeppers, one has to be a climber. Ya gotta be able to bail out.


----------



## Iustinian (Dec 15, 2013)

Definitely one of the attachment point MUST/SHALL be a climb line. Technically, we are also supposed to have installed a second "access" line in every tree that we are working in. The purpose of the second access line is to have available a line (independent of the climber's working line/climbing system) in the event that an aerial rescue needs to be performed; having this line already installed (and on-line tested) can shave critical minutes from the time it takes to perform the rescue by eliminating that set-up time. How many people work in compliance with these measures? eh.....a few other requirements commonly "overlooked" by alot of us: using the push-button detent pin in rope-grabs/flipline adjustors instead of a locking bolt, also we are supposed to climb on 11mm minimum diameter climb line (13mm for line clearance guys) and use a friction cord that is 3mm less than the climb line (the difference in diameters is required because it allows for more reliable function of the hitch) -- hanging on to gear that needs to be retired; unacceptable bend ratios, etc.


----------



## treesmith (Dec 15, 2013)

I like the petzl ball lock krabs for flip line spare grill on lanyard and main rope, they work one handed(if you have slimmer fingers) and they can't come open, I only use screw gate on saw lanyards or occasionally above a pulley but I make sure they're real tight

Sent from my GT-I9210T


----------



## Iustinian (Dec 15, 2013)

treesmith said:


> I like the petzl ball lock krabs for flip line spare grill on lanyard and main rope, they work one handed(if you have slimmer fingers) and they can't come open, I only use screw gate on saw lanyards or occasionally above a pulley but I make sure they're real tight
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9210T


I like the triacts better -- ball-locks dont seem to work as well like in the winter when you are wearing gloves, and we've had the plastic little push button work its way out of the mechanism, not as durable as triacts imo


----------



## ATH (Dec 15, 2013)

Iustinian said:


> Definitely one of the attachment point MUST/SHALL be a climb line. Technically, we are also supposed to have installed a second "access" line in every tree that we are working in...


Just pulled out ANSI to double check (since I was the one that brought it up...)
8.1.18: _"While working aloft, the climber shall have available a climbing line and at least one other means of being secured on his/her person at all times (example: an arborist climbing line and a work-positioning lanyard). Two means of being secured shall be used when the arborist determines that it is advantageous."_

So yes, I stand corrected...one must be a climbing line.

I brought it up because there are a few times on a small climb (15-20' tall tree) where I use 2 separate lanyards (one on the bridge, one on the side Ds). Especially short trees that are wide spreading, so there is nothing even close to a central tie in point. Guess I need to change that. Glad it was re-visited here! Not that I can't do that...just need to "have available a climbing line". Maybe instead of that second lanyard, I can just use the line as if it were a lanyard with a REALLY long tail. I think I would fit the "letter of the law" if I did the 2 lanyards and had the tail of the climbing line hanging off of the back of the harness. It would be available...but it doesn't do a lot of good if I have to bail...but again, I am talking about really short climbs. "Standard" climbs on larger trees are much more by the book!!!

In regards to the second line: I do not disagree that it is a good idea...however I can't find it in ANSI Z133.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Dec 16, 2013)

I do that 2, if I am in a real small guy, like a big crab, I will use 2 lanyards. I should have a tie in. I have thought about buying a new line and cutting it to make shorter ones for that purpose. The thought of actually doing it tho, cutting a line, cant get past it.


----------



## Pelorus (Dec 16, 2013)

Don't be cutting a line shorter! Check out WesSpur's "clearance rope" category.
You get get a good deal on oddball lengths, but sometimes you have to wait a month or two to find what you want.


----------



## ATH (Dec 16, 2013)

Yeah...love the clearance ropes at Wesspur. Only problem is that when I buy $20 worth of rope, I feel obligated to buy enough other stuff to get to $100 for free shipping


----------



## Iustinian (Dec 16, 2013)

ATH said:


> Yeah...love the clearance ropes at Wesspur. Only problem is that when I buy $20 worth of rope, I feel obligated to buy enough other stuff to get to $100 for free shipping


I'm the same way lol...takes me about 2 seconds to get that $100 spent though. (I'm really good at spending money though, especially on cool stuff)


----------



## sgreanbeans (Dec 21, 2013)

Iustinian said:


> I'm the same way lol...takes me about 2 seconds to get that $100 spent though. (I'm really good at spending money though, especially on cool stuff)


Its amazing how that works, I don't do much online ordering. Don't trust it. And my distrust was just vindicated. My wife did most Christmas shopping online. Alot at Target...........
Anyhow, when I go to Vermeer, I never walk out with just what I needed. Always leave with stuff I just wanted.


----------

