# The ultimate milling saw?



## Fallguy1960 (Sep 4, 2010)

There is a a lot of milling experience here so I thought this would be the place ask. If you could have any saw past or present for a dedicated milling saw which would you choose? Also what in your opinion is more important for a milling saw Rpm's or torque?


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## mtngun (Sep 4, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> what in your opinion is more important for a milling saw Rpm's or torque?


Both. You need RPMs for fast chain speed, and torque to avoid bogging.

I haven't found the ultimate milling saw yet, but probably any of the 120cc saws, set up with an unlimited carb, unlimited ignition, muffler mod, and perhaps a mild port job.


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## huskyhank (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree with what mtngun wrote and will add that many of the older over 100cc saws will work real well if you have one and can find parts to keep it running. More power is better and more so for bigger wood.

In currently made saws the most powerful are the 3120 Husky and the 880 Stihl, followed by the 660 Stihl and 395 Husqvarna. All can be improved on but they all will work right out of the box.

I like 3120s. If I could pick the perfect milling saw it'd be a 3120 with an adjustable carb., unlimited coil and a modified muffler to direct the exhaust gas away from me.


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## Adkpk (Sep 4, 2010)

I mill with an 066 and it's fine but my brother mills with a 395 and I would go with second time around. Similar power more torque better to mill with. Of coarse an 088 or 3120 but that's a lot of weight and money.


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## smokinj (Sep 4, 2010)

I really like the 880 and its still stock. I like toqure over rpm's for milling.


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## BIG JAKE (Sep 4, 2010)

Ultimate milling saw? Depends on what timber you'll be milling. For me it's an 066/660. That's because we don't have hardwoods around here. Additionally, the log diameters I typically mill which are douglas fir and pine, with diameters of 24" or less. I don't need an 880 for that. Where you live you have oak, maple, walnut, etc, and maybe hickory with potential diameters over 36" I'm assuming. In that case I'd say 880 or 3120, depending on what saw dealers you have near you.


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## 1947wdx (Sep 4, 2010)

*A band mill... *

I have both a 3120 and 394 and they are both good milling saws. The 3120 would be my pick if I had to choose a chainsaw for milling. 

I also have a small band mill, and there's just no comparison between that and a CSM. My only problem with it is that I need more track! I can only get a 9 foot log milled with the 12 feet of track I have... Here's what I did with it today...







:arg:

Oh wait, we were talking about chainsaw milling... Sorry...


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## BobL (Sep 4, 2010)

My definition of a milling saw is "any saw that mills" hence there are are endless possibilites of 4 stroke slabbers, swing mills and band saws. In that case my ultimate saw would be . . . . . . .humm . . . . I'm still thinking about it . . . . I think for Aussie hardwoods I'd go for a 

However, I presume by milling saw you mean "production chain saw" and you want to retain one person portability through forest? Then I suppose the very limited run of 10 ci 090 would make a pretty mean milling saw but you'd have to run low rakers and a 9 pin sprocket to get the cutting speed in small wood.

In big wood, torque is essential whereas chain speed is a bonus. A 37cc saw can turn 15000 rpm but will bog down when more than a couple of cutters are cutting wood. As I mentioned above with appropriate gearing (sprocket size) and raker settings a high torque saw can cut very fast. At the risk of repeating myself, this post is about double ended saws but is relevant here.


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## 820wards (Sep 5, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> There is a a lot of milling experience here so I thought this would be the place ask. If you could have any saw past or present for a dedicated milling saw which would you choose? Also what in your opinion is more important for a milling saw Rpm's or torque?



BobL is very correct in saying that any saw can mill. You just need to decide how big of a saw do you need for what you will for milling.

My mill is running an industrial 134cc 2-stroke motor. It's the same motor that came on some of the old Mongomery WARDS saw. There were other manufactures that used this motor. It is a 820 PowerBee motor. these motors went into production in the early 1960's and every part including electric ignitions are available today. 

Here is a link to pictures of the mill. I'm running a 2" exhaust pipe and a 1" intake/carb. I have just installed a 8 x .404 drive rime which BobL figured out for me that I will be driving the chain 14 percent faster. Chain speed a torque will mill big hardwood _(oak etc.)_ with ease.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=118268

Haven't been doing any mill as I pinched my sciatic nerve in my right leg building a wheelchair ramp for my Dad's house. It's getting better, but I'm not going to push it. The trees will be there waiting for me.

jerry-


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## Fallguy1960 (Sep 5, 2010)

I have a mixture of hardwoods and pine. Oak and maple up to 36" and a friend of mine has a White pine that the top blew out of that looks to be about 34" DBH. He wants to mill that tree when it dies. I have a Jonsred 2171 that I have used for milling on a different pine log seemed like it worked the saw pretty good. I have not got up the courage to do saw mods yet. My thought was what stock saw would be best. Thanks for the input.


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## smokinj (Sep 5, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> I have a mixture of hardwoods and pine. Oak and maple up to 36" and a friend of mine has a White pine that the top blew out of that looks to be about 34" DBH. He wants to mill that tree when it dies. I have a Jonsred 2171 that I have used for milling on a different pine log seemed like it worked the saw pretty good. I have not got up the courage to do saw mods yet. My thought was what stock saw would be best. Thanks for the input.



36 in wood The more cc's the better.


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## gemniii (Sep 5, 2010)

BobL said:


> My definition of a milling saw is "any saw that mills" hence there are are endless possibilites



Just installed my new b&c on my milling saw:





in time for Christmas 








ain't it cute 

Probably should switch to Canola oil.


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## liftaddict (Sep 5, 2010)

*best milling saw*

Ok sounds like the pros have all weighted in. As an rookie I have milled about 900 board feet of oak with a my stihl 076 av 21in bar. If i manage to keep it sharp i can mill 2 feet per minute in red oak 1.5 ft per minute in white oak or hickory. I started with the stihl 026 and a granberg milling chain. Used an alaskan small log mill. The 026 is too small the 076 is perfect for my wood. Getting good at keeping the teeth and rakers setup is critical. The 026 has a top speed around 13000 rpm the 076 is around 8000. I think it mills best around ( i quess 5000). I had a local stihl shop set up a ripping chain for the 076 i didn't try the granberg chain with it. If I was doing it for a living I would use a portable mill. If you want to mill some fallen trees get a used 111cc saw( or something in that size ) like the 076 and sell it when you are done. The 076 and small log mill are very portable but do weigh about 40lbs. Great for working on a cliff .


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## BobL (Sep 5, 2010)

liftaddict said:


> Ok sounds like the pros have all weighted in. As an rookie I have milled about 900 board feet of oak with a my stihl 076 av 21in bar. If i manage to keep it sharp i can mill 2 feet per minute in red oak 1.5 ft per minute in white oak or hickory. I started with the stihl 026 and a granberg milling chain. Used an alaskan small log mill. The 026 is too small the 076 is perfect for my wood. Getting good at keeping the teeth and rakers setup is critical. The 026 has a top speed around 13000 rpm the 076 is around 8000. I think it mills best around ( i quess 5000). I had a local stihl shop set up a ripping chain for the 076 i didn't try the granberg chain with it. If I was doing it for a living I would use a portable mill. If you want to mill some fallen trees get a used 111cc saw( or something in that size ) like the 076 and sell it when you are done. The 076 and small log mill are very portable but do weigh about 40lbs. Great for working on a cliff .



RE: Getting good at keeping the teeth and rakers setup is critical. 
Yep - I agree.

The 076 is carby governor limited to a max 9500 rpm. It is such a tough SOB that it is one of the few saws that can mill in very hard, big wood for long periods without needing to be set on the rich side (although it's probably a good idea to do so). This means I tune mine for ~9250. In a 20" cut with 3/8 chain set on a 6º cutting angle with light milling pressure mine will pull ~7500 rpm. If I push it harder it will cut faster for a while but it then drops off a little and then bogs down so I have to back it out of the cut. At that raker setting I find it easier to apply just enough pressure so that it sits at around 7500. In 40" wood I like the sound and cutting speed of it @ 7000 rpm. At cutting angles of around 4.5º I find I have to push it harder to get it to cut as fast as the 6º cutting angle and it runs hotter.


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## WoodChuck'r (Sep 5, 2010)

My 7900 and 681 are pretty good. They aren't the fastest - ESPECIALLY when I'm milling locust.  

But they seem to do a pretty decent job.


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## liftaddict (Sep 5, 2010)

I think my cutters are set at 10 deg. I do not touch my mixture but if it is cutting well I can get 30 to 40 board feet (18 in wide ). When it isn't cutting well i only get about 15 ft per tank. How much lower than the cutters do you set the rakers? I could try for 6deg. Do you use a skip tooth chain?Do you have the narrow left and right cutter like granberg's ripping chain? Sure would appreciate any input so I can get cutting faster again.


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## mtngun (Sep 5, 2010)

Liftaddict, it sounds like you are doing a good job of paying attention to details, like noting the cutting speed and how much you can cut on a tank of gas.

2 feet per minute is 0.4 inch/sec, not bad for an old saw with 3/8" chain (I presume ?). You don't state how wide, though ?

There is no right or wrong answer for raker height, as it has to be fine tuned for a particular powerhead/bar/chain/log. But I'd listen to what BobL has to say about it, since he used to mill with an 076.

A good starting point is to file the rakers with a progressive guide like the Carlton file-o-plate. 

If you want to get fancier, you could do like BobL and buy a digital angle finder to dial in a particular raker angle.


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 5, 2010)

smokinj said:


> I really like the 880 and its still stock. I like toqure over rpm's for milling.



Just wondering with your 880 do you mill w/o throtlle or part off,if part off do you know what rpm.


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## BobL (Sep 6, 2010)

liftaddict said:


> I think my cutters are set at 10 deg. I do not touch my mixture but if it is cutting well I can get 30 to 40 board feet (18 in wide ). When it isn't cutting well i only get about 15 ft per tank. How much lower than the cutters do you set the rakers? I could try for 6deg. Do you use a skip tooth chain?Do you have the narrow left and right cutter like granberg's ripping chain? Sure would appreciate any input so I can get cutting faster again.



Most CS users I run across who find their cutting speeds decreasing as their chain wears are not using progressive raker depth setting. This involves filing the raker to a "constant cutting angle" and not a constant raker depth.

The cutting angle I'm referring to is this angle




and is discussed here. This angle determines the raker depth and is quite different from top plate filing angles. If you trawl thru that thread you will see how I set my rakers. I have tried most types of chains and now just use full comp semi chisel chain since it suits our hardwoods.


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## liftaddict (Sep 6, 2010)

currently I use a dremel with a oregon 7/32 stone to sharpen the chain on my 076 . What is the best way to use this tool to sharpen the saw. I am doing something wrong . I am not sure what it is. I think my angle on the cutters is 10 deg. Would changing it to 6deg make a big difference?


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## mtngun (Sep 6, 2010)

liftaddict said:


> currently I use a dremel with a oregon 7/32 stone to sharpen the chain on my 076 . What is the best way to use this tool to sharpen the saw. I am doing something wrong . I am not sure what it is. I think my angle on the cutters is 10 deg. Would changing it to 6deg make a big difference?


Post a closeup or three of your chain and perhaps our resident filing expert will be able to give you some pointers.

The angle BobL was talking about is the angle between the cutter and the raker. As per his excellent pic:


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## BobL (Sep 7, 2010)

liftaddict said:


> currently I use a dremel with a oregon 7/32 stone to sharpen the chain on my 076 . What is the best way to use this tool to sharpen the saw. I am doing something wrong . I am not sure what it is. I think my angle on the cutters is 10 deg. Would changing it to 6deg make a big difference?



I don't think you are doing anything wrong to the cutters but I do think we still have our angles crossed. 

This is the angle you are referring to - it's called the top plate filing angle.





Whereas the cutting angle I am referring to is that between the wood, the cutter tip and the raker and it is determined by the raker depth and the width of the gullet. 




This (together with the cutter hook) determines how big a chip a cutter will generate and this has a substantial effect on cutting speed.

On new 3/8 chain, with a raker depth of 0.025" and a gullet width of 0.25", this corresponds to a cutting angle of 5.7º. Every time the chain is sharpened the gullet gets wider so the cutting angle decreases. By the time the gullet is 0.5" wide the cutting angle is only 3º so the cutter grabs half as much wood.

In addition to this, for optimum cutting speeds, the cutting angle may be different for different cutting situations so superior cutting speeds can be obtained by using different angles.

Very few people know or care about the cutting angle. 
They either use; 
- a constant raker depth gauge, which results in a decreasing cutting angle every time the chain is sharpened. This just creates more dust and slower cutting speeds.
- a Carlton File-o-plate (FOP) or similar. These are much better than a constant depth raker gauge, but they also slightly reduce the cutting angle as the cutter wears but not as much as using a constant raker height.

I have seen a raker depth gauge like this one that can be used to generate a more or less constant cutting angle.




The way to use this gauge is as follows.

To generate a ~6º cutting angle the gullet width is measured and the you divide that by 10 and that is the raker depth gauge to use.

So 
if the gullet is 0.25" use the 0.025" raker depth setting.
if the gullet is 0.30" use the 0.030" raker depth setting.
if the gullet is 0.35" use the 0.035" raker depth setting.
if the gullet is 0.40" use the 0.040" raker depth setting.

Then there are variations to this to suit saw power, width of cut and type of wood.
In soft wood consider using a half to one step greater raker depth.
In very wide wood use a half to one smaller raker depth
In very hard wood use a half to one smaller raker depth
For a very powerful saw use a half to one step greater raker depth.

The above recommendations are just a guide, there is also no need to microanalyse it to this extent. In practice I experiment and keep dropping the rakers until the saw bogs, then I take a bit more off the cutters and measure the cutting angle with a digital angle finder and stick to that.
For my muffler modded 880 it works out to 7.5º in narrow aussie hardwood and 6º in big Aussie hardwood. Lower angles still work but make more dust and cut slower.

Unless I am going to mill a lot of a particular type of wood with a particular powerhead I tend to use the lower cutting angle for that combination.

In the field, depending on how its cutting, I always start out with the cutting angles that are slightly on the high side and just give the rakers a swipe or two or three after every 2-3 touch ups.

If this sounds all too technical just use an FOP.


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## liftaddict (Sep 7, 2010)

here are some pics of the my chain: http://picasaweb.google.com/108717708067027922288/MillingChain#

it is a .404, .063 68 skip tooth chain


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## mtngun (Sep 7, 2010)

Liftaddicts pics:















The angles look reasonable at first glance (I didn't actually measure). On the other hand, that raker doesn't look like it has ever been filed, while the cutter has been filed back quite a bit. 

404 is not the ideal milling chain, but that's a whole 'nuther subject.


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## huskyhank (Sep 7, 2010)

Looks like the cutters need more hook. Try using a file instead of the dremel.


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## Chris Crouse (Sep 7, 2010)

820wards said:


> BobL is very correct in saying that any saw can mill. You just need to decide how big of a saw do you need for what you will for milling.
> 
> My mill is running an industrial 134cc 2-stroke motor. It's the same motor that came on some of the old Mongomery WARDS saw. There were other manufactures that used this motor. It is a 820 PowerBee motor. these motors went into production in the early 1960's and every part including electric ignitions are available today.
> 
> ...



The video of your mill in action in that link is no longer working. Could you provide a new link? I would like to hear that motor working.


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## 820wards (Sep 7, 2010)

Chris Crouse said:


> The video of your mill in action in that link is no longer working. Could you provide a new link? I would like to hear that motor working.





Try this link, it should work. You will also see the 820 Wards saw I use for cutting firewood and a saw that Art Martin built from a Wards frame I found him a few years ago that he built into a race saw.

http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/820wards/

jerry-


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## Chris Crouse (Sep 7, 2010)

Sounds neat. That's a pretty saw too. Thanks very much!


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## liftaddict (Sep 7, 2010)

Ok here is what I think I should do. And thanks for all the input. Since my saw cuts great at first and gets progressively worse I have to assume I am doing something wrong. I know I consentrate on getting the top plate sharp ( cutting up toward the edge ), I have not been paying enough attention to the hook or the ( gully?) under the top plate. I can to that. What is this about the 404 chain being poo for milling?


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## mtngun (Sep 7, 2010)

liftaddict said:


> What is this about the 404 chain being poo for milling?


Wider kerf = slower cut

Narrower kerf = faster cut

I wouldn't run out and spend money on it right away, but it's something to think about down the road.

For 90cc saws, the fastest milling chain is lo-pro/picco.

For 100+ cc saws up to 40-something inch bar length, the fastest milling chain is 0.325.

For over 40-something inches bar length, use 3/8.

404 may have a place on the big slabbing mills with 4 stroke engines, but that's about it. 

We have a few members who still swear by 404, but I think they are just being traditionalists.


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## liftaddict (Sep 7, 2010)

I have to check my manual for the smallest sprocket size for the 076 thanks. I will take the smaller chain info under advisement.


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## huskyhank (Sep 7, 2010)

You'll want to sharpen often to keep the chain cutting well.
On a 24" log I touch up every other cut. On bigger wood I sharpen every cut. Don't worry about a new chain just yet. Figure out how to make this one cut.




liftaddict said:


> Ok here is what I think I should do. And thanks for all the input. Since my saw cuts great at first and gets progressively worse I have to assume I am doing something wrong. I know I consentrate on getting the top plate sharp ( cutting up toward the edge ), I have not been paying enough attention to the hook or the ( gully?) under the top plate. I can to that. What is this about the 404 chain being poo for milling?


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## BobL (Sep 7, 2010)

OK - your cutter profile and raker depth say it all.






The height of the red bar (that's the raker depth) is 1/13 of the length of the red bar (I call that the gullet width even though it isn't) so the resulting cutting angle is 4.3º.

Combined with what Huskyhank said of the cutters not having enough hook, what is happening is that you are (what is called) "cutting on the edge". This means the cutters grab some wood when they are initially sharp but as soon as the razor edge is gone the cutter cannot grab enough wood and so your cutting speeds will slow.

A cutting angle of 4.3º is not all that bad but the 076 should be able to cope with 7º in softwood. From the image the raker depth is 0.035" but based on the length of the red bar the raker should be 0.045" With an 076 you should be able to run even lower rakers when you are milling smallish wood.

When using the dremel are you using the chain saw guide? The gullet should also be completely clear so I would get rid of that little dimple in the gullet.

I'm not quite as negative as mtngun about 404 chain in softwood. The difference in kerf between it and 3/8 is around 10%, but I don't see it cutting 10% slower, in fact sometimes it cuts faster especially with a big saw in small wood. My theory is it's bigger cutters hold more sawdust than 3/8.


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## gemniii (Sep 7, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> You'll want to sharpen often to keep the chain cutting well.
> On a 24" log I touch up every other cut. On bigger wood I sharpen every cut. Don't worry about a new chain just yet. Figure out how to make this one cut.



Nice point but how many square feet, what saw, chain and wood?
Do you cut a 2 foot wide long 15 foot long twice and sharpen up?

I'm trying to pin this down because I was "touching up" about every 25 square feet with my JD CS62 in red maple and BobL was touching up about every 32 square feet with his 880 on "Aussie Hardwood".

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=119564

Then in another thread RikBrooks writes


> I've only gotten about 15' out of the saw. It doesn't need sharpening. I can feel the sharp side.


 and he's cutting 18" wide hickory. which has a Janka of 1820 compared to my red maple of 950 and who knows what "Aussie Hardwood" , but probably as hard or harder than the hickory.

So I'm just attempting to pin down more numbers.

/edit - a Janka table http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm


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## liftaddict (Sep 7, 2010)

Ok you guys are giving me some good leads. Btw the scale above the cutters in in inches ( the other numbers are 10ths of an inch ). My bar is a 21in 68 tooth bar. The bar usually only sticks out an inch or two in the thickest part of the tree. I do not think that our white oak and hickory is soft it is considered pretty dense ( but I am the rookie here ). When the shop sharpens the chain they probably put a good hook in. I focus more on the edge, and like you said with touchups remove the hook the edge gets dull and the fuel consumption goes up. So tomorrow I may get a chance to put in a hook and remove the dimple. I do not have any type of guide. I am still fuzzy about the rakers although they do not seem to be a big part of the problem. :deadhorse:


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## huskyhank (Sep 7, 2010)

I usually cut 7-9 foot lengths because that's about all I can handle, carry and store. 

In bigger wood (32-40") I can tell the chain goes off perfectly sharp --before-- I'm done with one length. The chips go from big chips to little chips and fine dust. In wood like walnut, cherry and especially poplar I can cut a second slab but its better to sharpen. The third big slab is real slow if I go that far, as I might if its the last one of the day.


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## Fallguy1960 (Sep 7, 2010)

Does anyone here have experience with Solo saws? I'm looking at the 694"s that Baileys has in their catalog. At 90cc I was thinking it would do what I need to do without breaking the bank.


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## BobL (Sep 7, 2010)

liftaddict said:


> Ok you guys are giving me some good leads. Btw the scale above the cutters in in inches ( the other numbers are 10ths of an inch ).


A scale is not necessary to work out the cutting angle (that's yet another reason its better to use cutting angle rather than the raker depth) I just open up the image in Photoshop, rotate the image until the line between two adjacent cutter tips is exactly horizontal, insert a box such that the diagonal is between the tip of the cutter and the leading edge of the raker and then use the Image infor box in Photoshop to tell me how many pixels wide and high the box is. A width to height ratio of 10:1 correspend to 5.7º - this is a nominal working value and is what new chain is sold as.

If I know what sort of chain it is being used, I can also use the fact that the distance between two adjacent leading or following rivets = chain gauge and can convert all pixel measurements into " from there.



> My bar is a 21in 68 tooth bar. The bar usually only sticks out an inch or two in the thickest part of the tree. I do not think that our white oak and hickory is soft it is considered pretty dense ( but I am the rookie here ).


Those woods are only of average hardness compared to many other woods around the world. In that sort of wood with that short a bar and skip chain on an 076 I would even try running a 7º cutting angle. For your current cutter gullet that corresponds to a raker depth of 0.055"!



> When the shop sharpens the chain they probably put a good hook in.


They might put a good hook in the chain but most shops have never heard about progressive raker height adjustment and on worn chains this will leave you to cut a lot of dust. They would probably have a pink fit if you told them some mad Aussie suggested you try 0.055" raker settings.



> I focus more on the edge, and like you said with touchups remove the hook the edge gets dull and the fuel consumption goes up. So tomorrow I may get a chance to put in a hook and remove the dimple. I do not have any type of guide.


The edge is important but is quickly lost and then its up to cutter profile and raker setting to do the cutting. If they are not right - exactly what you say will happen, fuel consumption will increase and cutting will slow considerably.

Unless you have a lot of experience using a naked file, I recommend using a dremel guide, it will hold the file at the correct height and make a better hook. I have filed a lot of chains by hand but still usually use a file guide. You know when the hook is right because the saw should at least partially self feed and not need to be pushed to cut.



> I am still fuzzy about the rakers although they do not seem to be a big part of the problem. :deadhorse:


At this stage the hook represents most of the problem and the rakers represent less of a problem but if the hook is fixed you will cut much faster if you drop the rakers using the progressive raker setting method.


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## teatersroad (Sep 7, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> Does anyone here have experience with Solo saws? I'm looking at the 694"s that Baileys has in their catalog. At 90cc I was thinking it would do what I need to do without breaking the bank.



No experience 'cept that it sure looked like a good deal and I'd buy at that on reputation alone. Too bad they seem to be sold out. Checked their website, nada.


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## BobL (Sep 7, 2010)

gemniii said:


> Nice point but how many square feet, what saw, chain and wood?
> Do you cut a 2 foot wide long 15 foot long twice and sharpen up?
> 
> I'm trying to pin this down because I was "touching up" about every 25 square feet with my JD CS62 in red maple and BobL was touching up about every 32 square feet with his 880 on "Aussie Hardwood".



There is no hard and fast rule because everyones setup is different and everything varies just about all the time.

The reason I say 32 sqft is because in stuff around the Janka 2000 (green) mark I try to tailor my chains for my 60" bars to last this long because it corresponds to an 8' x 4' slab and don't want to overload the saw and/or have to pull the mill out half way through the cut to touch up. This means, using semi chisel full comp chain (it takes longer to go blunt) and a touch less hook and a 6º cutting angle. In different woods the only variables I can mess with are hook (not much) and cutting angle - I don't have any skip or full chisel chain loops for this size bar. If I was going to cut up some big softwoods I might buy a loop of full chisel. 

But what if the tree is say 30" by 10'.

Here I'll be using my 42" bar with the same type of chain as above and maybe increase the cutting angle in softer stuff like marri or even jarrah or even get out my loops of square ground skip. In practice I don't calculate the area to the exact sq footage - I'll get a feel for how its cutting towards the end of a cut and then I'll decide if I can get through the next cut without a touch up. I might make 3 cuts - touchup, then 2 cuts - touch up. and then single cuts and touch up even if its only 25 sqft.

Keep in mind that Janka hardness table you referred to in your last post is for 12% MC.


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## mtngun (Sep 7, 2010)

BobL said:


> I'm not quite as negative as mtngun about 404 chain in softwood. The difference in kerf between it and 3/8 is around 10%, but I don't see it cutting 10% slower, in fact sometimes it cuts faster especially with a big saw in small wood. My theory is it's bigger cutters hold more sawdust than 3/8.


Theory is good, but data is better.  

I have posted lots and lots of data showing a 25% increase in cutting speed with lo-pro, compared to 3/8.

Aggie posted data showing a 17% speed increase with 0.325", compared to 3/8.

Other members occasionally mention in passing that their saw takes "about" so long to cut "about" a certain length, usually without even bothering to mention the width. Apparently, Aggie and I are the only CSMers in the entire world who possess a tape measure and a time piece with a stopwatch function. 

BTW, I starting to question something you said about rakers, but I don't have enough *data* at the moment to back up my *theory*, so I'll bide my time and keep experimenting. 

LiftAddict, thanks for reminding me that the 076 requires special funky drive sprockets. 3/8 sprockets are available for the 076 -- just ask Phred45  -- but I doubt you can get .325. Anyway, I realize switching to a different type chain costs a lot of money and wasn't expecting you to run out and spend several hundred bucks on a new bar and chains. Just that if someday, if you need to buy a new milling bar anyhow, or a reel of chain, that's something to keep in mind.

This a good thread, with lots of meaty milling info being tossed around. It gives BobL a chance to talk about CSMing until his hand heals up and he can resume milling.


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## gemniii (Sep 8, 2010)

BobL said:


> There is no hard and fast rule because everyones setup is different and everything varies just about all the time.
> 
> The reason I say 32 sqft is because in stuff around the Janka 2000 (green) mark I try to tailor my chains for my 60" bars to last this long because it corresponds to an 8' x 4' slab and don't want to overload the saw and/or have to pull the mill out half way through the cut to touch up. This means, using semi chisel full comp chain (it takes longer to go blunt) and a touch less hook and a 6º cutting angle. In different woods the only variables I can mess with are hook (not much) and cutting angle - I don't have any skip or full chisel chain loops for this size bar. If I was going to cut up some big softwoods I might buy a loop of full chisel.
> 
> ...



BobL - 
That's why I'm trying to get more rough numbers related to something we can quantify. And I expect many of us choose to "touch up" when convenient. I figure let the chips fly. But if they get small, or if it's sawdust as in


> So I put the chain on the bar and the bar in the saw. I tighten the chain. I put on the clutch cover and put on the mill. ...I position it and…
> 
> SAWDUST!
> 
> The chain saw is cutting.


the chain needs sharpening, the rakers need dropping.

And do you have any links to better hardness scales?
thanks


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## gemniii (Sep 8, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> Does anyone here have experience with Solo saws? I'm looking at the 694"s that Baileys has in their catalog. At 90cc I was thinking it would do what I need to do without breaking the bank.


Does it have an inboard clutch? Side chain tensioner? What's support like in 2014?


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## mtngun (Sep 8, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> Does anyone here have experience with Solo saws? I'm looking at the 694"s that Baileys has in their catalog. At 90cc I was thinking it would do what I need to do without breaking the bank.


Member RikBrooks has one that he might sell you for cheap.


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## BobL (Sep 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Theory is good, but data is better.
> 
> I have posted lots and lots of data showing a 25% increase in cutting speed with lo-pro, compared to 3/8.
> Aggie posted data showing a 17% speed increase with 0.325", compared to 3/8.
> ...



Yep I agree, hard data beats any half baked theory
But a well founded theory verified by hard data is generally more widely useful than any one individuals data.
Data is usually restricted to individual cases - so what works for one operator may not work for others.
But if we had to ask do we have a well founded theory based on the data from 2.5 operators? - I think not.

Timing measurement make sense for operators that mill boards from regular shaped cants but is harder for those of us that don't because the cuts are often of a variable size.

I did some timing measurements the cutting speed of 3/8 regular versus 3/8 lopro in small Jarrah using my 441 back in April of this year. But, I was not cutting the same width every time, and after 4 cuts my conclusions were that I could not see any noticeable difference and once the lopro was even a touch slower? If the lopro had been 25% different I would certainly have noticed it and been shouting it from the rooftops. The other reason I did not report specific times was the chain cutter profiles were far from optimized for cutting in that size wood. I still think it's worth a go but as I don't cut that size wood all that often it will be one of those "when I get around to it tasks". 

Making a loop of lopro for my 42" or 60" bars would provide me with an opportunity to compare the two types of chains but I know my 076 and 880 would stretch it so much it would jump the sprockets so I'm not going there - or maybe I will give it a go when the new sprockets arrive? 

However, I do have a loop of 404 for the 60" so I will give it a go next time I put that bar on. I know this sounds like another "gunna" post but that's what I am reduced to with this bung hand.
Oh yeah, and if this sounds like a bunch of excuses for not timing more cuts then you are right ;-)
I don't know how many times I have started the stop watch on my cell phone and then go to the end of the cut and forgotten to look - I need to add a stop watch to the dashboard.


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## BobL (Sep 8, 2010)

gemniii said:


> BobL -
> And do you have any links to better hardness scales?
> thanks



Here's a link to 125 of the worlds hardest - but once again they are all for dry wood (12% MC).
http://www.morlanwoodgifts.com/MM011.ASP?pageno=207

Here is the top 20 - the ones in Red are Aussies 

1 - * Belah {Casuarina cristata} 4500
1 - * Lignum Vitae - Tree Of Life {Guaiacum officinale} 4500
1 - * Waddy Wood {Acacia peuce} 4500
2 - * Mgurure {Combretum schumanii} 4430
3 - * Lignum Vitae - Holywood {Guaiacum sanctum} 4400 - Hardest Wood In United States
3 - * Red Bauhinia {Lysiphyllum carronii} 4400
4 - * Tubi - Blackwood Solomon - Ebony Queen {Xanthostemon melanoxylon} 4370
5 - * Knob Thorn {Acacia nigrescens} 4290
6 - * Gidgee {Acacia cambagei} 4270
7 - * Tiga {Tristania decorticata} 4260
8 - * Baraúna {Schinopsis brasiliensis/glabra} 4200
9 - * Snakewood Australian {Acacia xiphophylla} 4150
9 - * Wattle Lakewood {Acacia enervia} 4150
10 - * Brown Spearwood {Acacia rhodoxylon} 4100
* Gimlet {Eucalyptus salubris} 4090
* Blackwood African {Dalbergia melanoxylon} 4050
* Wattle Australian Ironwood {Acacia excelsa} 4050
* Jutahy {Dialium guianense} 4000
* Lignum Vitae Argentine {Bulnesia sarmientoi} 4000 Note: Not related to #1 or #3 Lignum Vitae
* Verawood {Bulnesia arborea} 4000 Note: Related to but different from above
* Blackbutt Dundas {Eucalyptus dundasii} 3960
* Miraúba {Mouriri callocarpa} 3960
* Ebony Brown {Libidibia paraguariensis} 3900
* Curupay {Piptadenia macrocarpa} 3840
* Morrel Red {Eucalyptus longicornis} 3840
* Ebony Red {Erythrophleum chlorostachys} 3820
* Mulga {Acacia aneura} 3820
* Snakewood {Piratinera guianensis} 3800
* Urucurana {Sloanea nitida} 3720
20 - * Olivewood Brazilian {Ferreirea spectabilis} 3700


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## liftaddict (Sep 8, 2010)

so is ct. white oak like a 2 or something? Then the red oak would be a 1? :monkey::monkey:


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## Can8ianTimber (Sep 8, 2010)

I guess I will throw my hat in the ring.

I use 404 because my 7' bar is too thick and 3/8" chain will not make a wide enough cut to pass the bar through it. Because of that I also run 404 on my 60" and 50" bars. The problem is the really long bars need to be thicker to support themselves then you need to make a wider cut.


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## sachsmo (Sep 10, 2010)

Fallguy1960 said:


> There is a a lot of milling experience here so I thought this would be the place ask. If you could have any saw past or present for a dedicated milling saw which would you choose? Also what in your opinion is more important for a milling saw Rpm's or torque?








I plan on milling up a 38" dbh white oak tomorrow morning, if the old girl survives I will vote for her!

The touque thing, Yeah, THE MORE THE BETTER.


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## rarefish383 (Sep 11, 2010)

Since my wife is allways yelling at me to get rid of all the junk in my shed (12'X16'), I was thinking about mounting a 12 hp Kohler electric start to a Disston 2 man saw bar, and calling it a CSM. Would that count? Sorry, just kidding, I've been up since 4am and I'm getting board. I actually did think about putting that engine on that bar for fun once, Joe.


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