# Upgrades to Echo CS-590



## JackJ (Dec 22, 2015)

I'm looking for a new ~60cc saw to tackle some big oaks and maples that would be too much of a challenge for my 20 year old Stihl 025. $400 is about my limit, and I don't feel comfortable evaluating used saws, so I'm thinking the Echo Timberwolf is what I'm after. Clearly not the greatest 60cc saw, but seems to be the best value, and I've got a local dealer that I feel pretty good about, though I've only been in the shop twice.

I'll get it with the 20" bar and run it stock initially, but will probably eventually remove the carb limiters and do a muffler mod. My one concern is that there are very few accessories (bars, chains, sprockets) listed for this saw. I realize it's fairly new, but I'm wondering if there's anything about it that would limit future upgrades. Is there anything different about the bar mount or oil systems compared to the other 59cc Echos? Anything I need to watch out for in getting aftermarket accessories?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2015)

Bars and are widely available for the 590 that will never be an issue. The most important aspect to most non enthusiasts, is keeping your chain properly sharpened. A good mm and the 590 really wakes these saws up, I wouldn't wait to open the muffler up.

What size are the trees you're cutting?


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## Big Block (Dec 23, 2015)

It's a great saw opened up. Like Andre said don't wait to MM and delete the limiters. It makes a huge difference so does a base gasket delete if you have the aptitude. That saw oils like the exxon Valdez so no worries there.


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## Big Block (Dec 23, 2015)

Check out this thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/15-echo-cs620pw-information.278407/
The best echo 590/600/620 thread around.
The best 6 series saw mods and videos Andre's saw is in there somewhere and a mild muff mod takes all of 15 minutes bud


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## Conquistador3 (Dec 23, 2015)

That saw here goes for about 700€... putting it in the same ballpark as the Dolmar PS 6100 and the Stihl MS 311. Yes, saws are that expensive here. 

Honestly I can say the old Echo chainsaws I had were nigh on bulletproof and lasted far longer than they should have, especially considering the abuse they took. I have a lot of other Echo products in the house and I cannot praise them highly enough.


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## drf255 (Dec 23, 2015)

Ok, I'm gonna be that guy.

Keep the 025 and buy a used 044 from a reputable seller here. There are some listed for around $400 right now.

Noone here sells crap.

"Big oaks and Maples" and a garden variety 60cc saw don't mix well.

With an 044, you can add a 28" and do most anything. Then walk around with the 025 for limbing.

Just sayin. You'll be a happier man in the end. And, after you tackle your project, you could sell it for the same price.


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## Cliff R (Dec 23, 2015)

For sure remove the limiter caps before you use the saw. I'm a big Echo fan, and own a lot of their equipment. Haven't ran into a piece of Echo power equipment yet that didn't REQUIRE adding some fuel to get it up to par. The factory simply sets them way too lean to make the EPA happy.

Some of their equipment is also difficult to adjust as they hide the carb adjustment screws under plastic caps. Just fixed one of their leaf blowers and it took a while to find the adjustment screw, it was very well hidden under a plastic drive in plug that had to be carefully drilled out to remove it.

Anyhow, I don't have any direct experience with that particular saw, but I'll be it will be a good runner once you throw some fuel at it......Cliff


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## mountainlake (Dec 23, 2015)

Plus the muff deflector a opening about the size of a pea, open that up for sure. Steve


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## jr27236 (Dec 23, 2015)

The one big plus in buying the Echo is the 5 year consumer warranty, so making the mods will void your warranty, unless the dealer you bought it from is on board and may turn a blind eye in the event it craps out. That's why I like no warranty used saws that I can mod and remod till my hearts content


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## Cliff R (Dec 23, 2015)

Warranty or not, at a minimum remove the limiter caps and fatten up the A/F ratio some, or you'll likely smoke the P/C, and even if you do not, the saw will likely be down on power, and not work well at all till it's full warmed up.

I do minimal mods to Echo saws/power equipment all the time in the shop, and have NEVER once had one have any issues related to the P/C, or anything else that would have them need a trip to a dealer for a Warranty issue. To be real honest, some of their stuff will NOT run right out of the box, difficult to start/keep running, woln't idle well, and hesitate/stumble until fully warmed up, and even then they are not fully up to par (too lean).

Even with that said, I do NOT make any other modifications beyond removing limiter caps and correctly setting the mixture screws......except for a few specific models with CAT's in the mufflers, I'll remove them and open up the exit port just a tad. .....Cliff


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## mountainlake (Dec 23, 2015)

It's really unlikely it will crap out if tuned right but if it did one could get a new muff deflector before taking it in, with the limiter caps pull them off adjust properly and reinstall them without grinding the tabs off. Steve


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## JackJ (Dec 23, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice. I was under the impression that I wouldn't need to remove the limiters unless I was doing a mm. I know there are EPA mandates at play here, but it's still surprising that a major manufacturer would sell saws through big box stores that are sometimes set so lean that they won't run well or live long, especially while offering a 5 yr warranty. That said, I respect the opinions I'm hearing, and would much prefer to err on the side of a rich mix with a slight power compromise over a ratio that threatens the lubrication.

So the limiters will come off right away. I asked the dealer (not a big box store--it's a Husky/Echo shop that services many of the pros in the area) about this, and he indicated that they might even be able to remove them for me while still honoring the warranty. I mentioned muffler mods, too, but that seemed off the table, not surprisingly. He had good things to say about the 590, and also recommended the Husky 460 Rancher in that price/displacement. But the Echo seems to be a bit higher value from the research I've done--closer to a pro saw build, especially once the bar/chain/sprocket get upgraded (which I'd do only after the original parts wear out).

It's tempting to step up to the 70cc class in a used saw. And my guess is that I may eventually, now that I'm in this AS rabbit hole. But honestly, I know I'll be content with how a 60cc cuts for the majority of what I do. My little 45cc 025 with an 18" bar has been quite capable, even though I sometimes push it outside of its comfort zone. I'm diligent about keeping my chain sharp, at least.

The trees that are making me want a little more are a 24" maple and a few 20" maples and red oaks. 

Thanks again for all the input.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Dec 23, 2015)

for the time being i would pull the limiters i only modded the factory deflector when i had mine.Later on if you want to you can add a unlimited coil from a cs 620 the original coil is limited.


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## Rockjock (Dec 23, 2015)

JackJ said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I was under the impression that I wouldn't need to remove the limiters unless I was doing a mm. I know there are EPA mandates at play here, but it's still surprising that a major manufacturer would sell saws through big box stores that are sometimes set so lean that they won't run well or live long, especially while offering a 5 yr warranty. That said, I respect the opinions I'm hearing, and would much prefer to err on the side of a rich mix with a slight power compromise over a ratio that threatens the lubrication.
> 
> So the limiters will come off right away. I asked the dealer (not a big box store--it's a Husky/Echo shop that services many of the pros in the area) about this, and he indicated that they might even be able to remove them for me while still honoring the warranty. I mentioned muffler mods, too, but that seemed off the table, not surprisingly. He had good things to say about the 590, and also recommended the Husky 460 Rancher in that price/displacement. But the Echo seems to be a bit higher value from the research I've done--closer to a pro saw build, especially once the bar/chain/sprocket get upgraded (which I'd do only after the original parts wear out).
> 
> ...




I would not worry to much if you leave the limiters in place. People love to spout their beliefs here with little thought. I come from a country where saws are not modified and yet I can show hundreds of examples of stock saws lasting 20 years plus with no issues. While in Germany I saw very few echos saws there for lack of dealer support. Here in Ontario Canada it is much the same. No dealer presence and the few times I have had the pleasure of working on a 590 it has been a waiting game for parts( The customer uses my MS270 loaner saw and are not in much of a hurry to come and collect the 590 most times, to be fair it has a sharp chain, and is tuned to stock specs. If I were to muffler mod it and retune it I think they would let thier saw sit with me even longer  ) . I have customers come in with china engine *** and it seldom ends well either. A bloke just gave you sage advice.. get an 044 and never look back.


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## mountainlake (Dec 23, 2015)

Herein the US most Echo saws come lean and will burn up in a long hard cut, no way would I run one without tuning.. There's a vid on youtube, the CS590 cuts almost twice as fast as a MS270. Steve


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## Rockjock (Dec 23, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> Herein the US most Echo saws come lean and will burn up in a long hard cut, no way would I run one without tuning.. There's a vid on youtube, the CS590 cuts almost twice as fast as a MS270. Steve




So let me understand this. Right out of the box the saw will blow up in a long cut? Really? They are that bad out of the box? The 270 was a loaner and the guy did say he liked it very much. I suppose something can be said about being reliable right out the box.


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## Big Block (Dec 23, 2015)




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## jacobmc (Dec 23, 2015)

Put a 14in bar on the 25 and it will help...18 is to much 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Rockjock (Dec 23, 2015)

jacobmc said:


> Put a 14in bar on the 25 and it will help...18 is to much
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk



I find they do well with a 16" B&C they also like the muffler mod as well.


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## Cliff R (Dec 23, 2015)

Echo sets them lean to meet EPA regulations in place at the time, no big secret there. They also expect a given percentage of these saws to smoke the P/C (was told this by one of their employees who works at a warranty repair location). Problem is the Echo and the EPA don't have the first CLUE as to where the saw is going to be used, typical weather, altitude, density altitude, air quality and even more important fuel quality. For example 10 percent ethanol fuel doesn't contain the same energy as non-ethanol fuel of the same grade, and it will require about 5 percent more of it to do the same amount of work. So a chain saw delivered to a cool/cold climate where the fuel doesn't contain ethanol will require a different carb setting than one delivered to a hot-humid climate where the fuel does contain ethanol, for example. Even a saw used in the same basic location/climate will benefit from some minor custom tuning as the seasons change and DA changes with them.

For these reasons is it not an option to set the carburetor once they reach their final destination and are placed in service. Muffler "mods" on the other hand are completely optional. I have scores of later production chain saws in service w/o any muffler mods at all and they are fine. I hesitate to do any muffler modifications on most saws without some direct testing involved. Opened up mufflers can do nothing more than increase noise level, and not increase engine power in the least. A guy really needs to sneak up on those things and do some timed cuts and custom tuning along the way to see if you are really helping the saw out, or just pissing off the neighbors because it's tens times louder than it needs to be.

Anyhow, as far as this topic is concerned, I could list dozens of DIRECT experiences here where saws (and other power equipment) showed up at the shop running poorly. Echo is not alone in this deal, but seem to be set leaner than the other big names as a general rule....FWIW.....Cliff


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## jacobmc (Dec 23, 2015)

I just got a 590 a week ago to try out for a ground saw and I am super impressed with it..I'm going to drop down to a 18in bar 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Rockjock (Dec 23, 2015)

Cliff makes some interesting points but actually Echo does know where the saw will be used, as does Stihl, As does Husqvarna. They know where thy ship the saws to, so what they do is some product research. So they send a saw to me in Toronto , then one to fritz in Stuttgart and one to Bubba in Pensacola we all tune our saws and report back, the fuel we used, the carb setting air temp.. then the saw makers average out those numbers and then tell us here guys set your saws this way and we try them again and again. You think the saw makers do not have atmospheric chambers? I can tell you for a fact that Stihl and Husqvarna have one. Then there is outside testing, failure analysis, etc.. If a company is serious they do through all these processes. I just can not believe that any company would give a 5 year warranty knowing that walter woodcutter is going to blow his saw up in a long cut. They would go out of business. Aso my point of the muffler mod was not for performance per say.. I have an 025 that has cut a great deal of wood and still runs strong. I removed the muffler to check the spark screen and saw the opening was large, looked at my MS 250 and saw they were very different. Muffler wise. SO I just opened up the muffler as much as my 025, re tune and I am hopeful the bloke I sold it to has as many trouble free years as me.. I will look for pics later.


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## Cliff R (Dec 23, 2015)

It's completely IMPOSSIBLE to know where a saw is going to end up at, or what fuel it's going to get, type of oil mix, etc. Currently there are several thousand Stihl, Husqvarna and Echo saws on Ebay, new, in the box, and they could end up anywhere I the World after the auctions have ended.

Here is a classic example of what can happen when you buy a new saw, in the box. Couple of years ago I bought an Echo CS-400 off Ebay. It was a bit difficult to get going and absolutely would NOT stay running as set from the factory. I even kept the choke part way on, then tried and tried to get it to idle and make a cut, but no dice. It just wasn't going to work, even fully up to temp and heat soaked it stalled out in the cut. A few minutes with a drywall screw and pulling the limiter caps was all that was needed. I fine tuned the L and H screws and it was FLAWLESS, and still is today.

So, jump ahead to this year, my veterinarian and good friend brings his brand new Home Depot CS-400 over because it doesn't work to his satisfaction. It was only a tad better than the one I purchased several years earlier, extremely "cold blooded", wouldn't even try to stay running till fully warmed up, and still stalled out in the cut.

I went one step further with his, removed the limiter caps and did a muffler mod, and it was absolutely and positive a 100 percent improvement for that saw. He just happened to show up today to borrow my wood splitter, months later, and still commented on how well his CS-400 runs after the mods.

Anyhow, I do this stuff for a living, and no one is going to come on here and tell me that these saws are "spot-on" right out of the box, and don't respond well to some minor tuning. If you really believe that, you'll most likely find out how well their 5 year warranty really is......IMHO......Cliff


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## Rockjock (Dec 23, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> It's completely IMPOSSIBLE to know where a saw is going to end up at, or what fuel it's going to get, type of oil mix, etc. Currently there are several thousand Stihl, Husqvarna and Echo saws on Ebay, new, in the box, and they could end up anywhere I the World after the auctions have ended.
> 
> Here is a classic example of what can happen when you buy a new saw, in the box. Couple of years ago I bought an Echo CS-400 off Ebay. It was a bit difficult to get going and absolutely would NOT stay running as set from the factory. I even kept the choke part way on, then tried and tried to get it to idle and make a cut, but no dice. It just wasn't going to work, even fully up to temp and heat soaked it stalled out in the cut. A few minutes with a drywall screw and pulling the limiter caps was all that was needed. I fine tuned the L and H screws and it was FLAWLESS, and still is today.
> 
> ...



So let me understand this. You bought a Echo saw and it was garbage until you adjusted it. The you had another person buy an other echo saw and it too was garbage until it was also adjusted. I may add you took the persons 5 year warranty and flushed it down the toilet. 2 echos both garbage, then someone posts that they must be adjusted or they will burn up. The pattern I see here is they are garbage unless a highly skilled person like yourself gets it dialed in. 

My dear friend it is clear to me that you do not know how mass manufacturing works. When a saw is made it is tuned within certain specs. I have worked on many saws that have the limiters in place an that are used year round. So how is this done? Well some very highly educated people take said saws and place them in a climate controlled chamber and run them at different temps. These saws have all sorts of sensors on them, the exhaust fumes are analyzed adjustments are made different grades of fuel, humidity, air temp etc are all factors in the base settings they use. Now I agree with you that it is not spot on. BUT it is in the safe parameter to get that saw running and cutting wood. . If I was to use your logic then every single saw I sell runs like garbage unless I adjust it. Since the Husqvarna is made in Sweden and it is much much colder there than say Texas does that mean they too must be re tuned since they will run like garbage? I think we all know the answer to that. Look at a Stihl box, notice the different languages on the box? Yes that product works in all those countries. 



But since you do this for a living I suggest you head over to echo with your drywall screw and show them how it is done properly.


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## Cliff R (Dec 23, 2015)

Bottom line here folks, if you want the very best from your new Echo chainsaw, be prepared to fine tune it. If doing this is beyond your scope of capabilities, find someone who can. I can tell you for certain I've worked on more of these saws than most folks who will read this, and am very fond of Echo power equipment. I also want the best out of it, and get long service life. I'm smart enough to know when something starts fine, idles fine, doesn't hesitate when you go quickly to full throttle, full strokes at no load, then cleans up nicely in the cut, and the limiter screws are in place, it doesn't need any additional help.

To date this has NOT been the case with any Echo saw that I've had here, new in the box, purchased used, or brought in here by a customer.

In case anyone missed it in an earlier post, we just spent some time with an Echo PB-250 leaf blower. It was purchased here locally by one of my employees. He ran it this fall and commented to me that it was EXTEMELY cold blooded and he had to run the choke partially on till it fully warmed up, and even then if he took the choke all the way off the engine slowed ever so slightly and started "gurgling" some (sound familiar?).

I told him it was lean, and just needed adjusted. To my surprise the carburetor was NOT adjustable. I commenced to take the carburetor completely apart and cleaned it out, looking for a fixed jet or some sort of adjustment, and there wasn't one to be found. We put it back together, and no change whatsoever it how it worked. I did notice a black plastic flush plug on the end of the carb, so very carefully removed it. Low and behold under that plug was an adjustment screw. A minute or so later we had the leaf blower running like it was supposed to, full rpms and "clean" exhaust note, no longer cold blooded or "gurgling" at full load/full throttle.

So once again we have another piece of power equipment that was simply WAY too lean right out of the box and required some minor fine tuning to be up to par. 

I guess the engineers didn't have it in their climate controlled chamber long enough that day, or it got on the wrong truck and was shipped to Ohio instead of South Florida.....FWIW.......Cliff


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## Rockjock (Dec 23, 2015)

Cliff how much deeper you gonna dig the echo hole? With 1 broad brush stroke you have condemned the echo line of *** to the scrap heap unless tuned? Clearly quitting while you are ahead is beyond you as is reading comprehension.


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## win67 (Dec 23, 2015)

My employer has an Echo leaf blower that works exactly as Cliff described. Echo machines are almost always cold-blooded and set too lean out of the box. Tuning them really helps out, BUT if you're happy with it as-is, chances are better than with most makes that you can run it for 20 years with no problems. I've used and worked on my fair share of Echo machines from various time periods, and have yet to see one that came out of the box set up to fail.


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## mountainlake (Dec 24, 2015)

Unlike some on here I can easily understand that Echo has to set their saws lean and clog up the muff to get by the EPA, if you are incapable of dealing with those 2 issues get yourself a gutless low quality MS270 .. Steve


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## Cliff R (Dec 24, 2015)

I don't see the purpose of having these discussions if everyone really believes that all of this power equipment is up to par right out of the box, and he factory has left the owner/tuner enough room to dial in the carburetor to give the engine the fuel that it needs with the limiter caps in place. If you can deal with a piece of power equipment, Echo or anything else that runs poorly until it's fully warmed up, and even then is a bit lethargic and not making the power that it should, why even bother being a member here and reading responses from folks who know how to make them work like they are supposed to?

I recently inherited a Husqvarna leaf blower from my father-in-law and found that it was more "in range" within the limits of the factory mixture screws than the Echo leaf blowers I've worked on. I also recently worked on a newer Husqvarna 235 chainsaw and it was pretty close right out of the box. I was still able to help both of them out with a little tuning, but they would have been OK as-is and probably never had an issue with the P/C due directly to being set too lean from the factory.

Steve is correct in his earlier post about the potential of P/C damage to these saws. I have ran into a number of lean-seized Echo chainsaws, but to date haven't seen any string trimmers or leaf blowers with P/C issues directly related to running too lean. For this reason I quit buying used Echo chainsaws off of Ebay, got three in a row that had P/C damage and all had very little run time on them. In most cases if you are patient a new in the box saw can be had on Ebay for only a few dollars more than what used ones will bring, Then, IF you are educated in these things the carburetor can be set correctly before any P/C damage occurs and you'll end up with a chainsaw that will last for many years and provide impressive and reliable service.....FWIW.....Cliff


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## mountainlake (Dec 24, 2015)

IF you are educated in these things the car

buretor can be set correctly before any P/C damage occurs and you'll end up with a chainsaw that will last for many years and provide impressive and reliable service.....FWIW.....Cliff


You hit the nail on the head, if you want to whine about something as simple as adjusting a carb and opening up a muff , get educated. Also if you think a MS270 is any where near as good as a CS590 you really need to get educated . Steve


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## CR888 (Dec 24, 2015)

l bought a new echo 550p and removed limiters as both were set to max, however it spooled up fast and four stroked out of wood. After re-tuning I ended up exactly where l began needle position wise. Any new *** should be tuned before delivery, and the owner should include basic 2t tuning in his/her skillset. This is not rocket science here. Things and problems do get massily over exagerated on enthusiest forums like AS. Yamabiko Japan (echo) know a thing or two about building good 2T products, have done so for years. The 5 year warranty is not anywhere near as good as it sounds when you read and understand the fine print.


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## livemusic (Dec 24, 2015)

I've read quite a bit about Echo cs-590 and then found that someone said it could be 'turned into' a 600 with some mods. And then I read that now there is a 620 that is basically the same saw just more powerful? There may have been a couple of other differences, such as less plastic. But the 620 costs, like, $250 more? sheesh. I guess the 590 would be plenty for somebody like me who just needs a reliable saw to cut some firewood and occasional downed tree.


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## Cliff R (Dec 24, 2015)

The EPA is the main reason things are as they are here. Since I own and have owned quite a few Echo products over several decades now, I have seen them continue to make changes to their engines in search of more power, and efficiency. If you want inefficiency, pick up one of their smaller top or side handle reed valve engine models, CS-300 for example. They are underpowered, stinky, and inefficient. Echo moved on to piston ported smaller models with better success there. I have a good example with my CS-360T. It was quite lethargic right out of the box, and WAY too lean for my liking, but it did work OK within the limits of the factory caps on the L and H screws. At the stock settings it had a very annoying hesitation until fully warmed up, and even then it was BARELY acceptable from an operator standpoint. It also has an annoying rev-limiter that is reached very easily when the saw had the factory lean settings.

Removing the limiter caps was a nice improvement for that saw, but it was still "sluggish" and a bit down on power. A muffler mod was the next improvement, and low and behold I now have a really nice running top handle saw one would be proud of. It has great power for the cc's, and has been dead solid reliable now for many years. The only negative to that saw is the "bulky" design for a top handle.

Echo has been improving their offerings one by one in recent years. I've owned just about every single model that was available 10 years ago, some were strong runners, others just OK, and a couple a bit sub-standard, at least in terms of power to weight ratio. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of direct experience with the latest offerings, but am glad threads like this are running on them. I've very interested in the CS-590, CS-600, and CS-620 models, but haven't dropped the hammer on one yet simple because my line-up is quite up to par in 60cc range. I've still got my sights set on owning one, and may add one to the line-up at some point.

+2 on the CS-590 offering. The CS-590 is certainly intriguing, as it is quite a bit less expensive than the 600's and 620's, but has the same cc's. I've also wondered if it has similar potential, which would make it a real bargain for a 60cc saw?.......Cliff


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## Vibes (Dec 24, 2015)

drf255 said:


> Ok, I'm gonna be that guy.
> 
> Keep the 025 and buy a used 044 from a reputable seller here. There are some listed for around $400 right now.
> 
> ...



What do you mean no one here sells crap. What are you some kind of fortune teller? I've been burned here twice by so called reputable sellers so keep the absolutes to yourself. I've also bought more than a few saws here with no problems. Those transactions have been noted.


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## Conquistador3 (Dec 24, 2015)

Interesting thread, and I want to add one little thing.
These Echo chainsaws (like pretty much every other piece of power equipment) are sold all over the world with different emission requirements. For manufacturers the best way to save money is to have one basic machine which can be made compliant simply by switching a different carburetor and perhaps exhaust. 
Generally speaking, European emission regulations are laxer than EPA ones. This means the various chainsaws, lawnmowers, brushcutters etc we have here run slightly richer at the factory and hence a tad better. 

Yamabiko manufactures God only knows how many chainsaws a year and for them it makes just much more economic sense to have a single basic model to which fit different carburetors to be emission compliant on different markets. Knowing how Japanese companies work they did their homework to make the engine as reliable as possible but also know very well US-specific models run a higher risk of breaking down, hence have a higher chance of having to be repaired/swapped under warranty. 
However for them the warranty costs are much lower than running two or more separate product lines. Money wins in the end.


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## drf255 (Dec 24, 2015)

Vibes said:


> What do you mean no one here sells crap. What are you some kind of fortune teller? I've been burned here twice by so called reputable sellers so keep the absolutes to yourself. I've also bought more than a few saws here with no problems. Those transactions have been noted.


And a big "I have a potty mouth" to you too...

I'll opine whenever I want to, here or anywhere.

Your angry response makes me wonder who was at fault with your bad events.

I don't think I'm a fortune teller, maybe I am, who knows.


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## TimberWolf530 (Dec 24, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> For sure remove the limiter caps before you use the saw. I'm a big Echo fan, and own a lot of their equipment. Haven't ran into a piece of Echo power equipment yet that didn't REQUIRE adding some fuel to get it up to par. The factory simply sets them way too lean to make the EPA happy.
> 
> Some of their equipment is also difficult to adjust as they hide the carb adjustment screws under plastic caps. Just fixed one of their leaf blowers and it took a while to find the adjustment screw, it was very well hidden under a plastic drive in plug that had to be carefully drilled out to remove it.
> 
> Anyhow, I don't have any direct experience with that particular saw, but I'll be it will be a good runner once you throw some fuel at it......Cliff


Just an FYI on the limiter caps on Echo saws. You don't have to drill them out. Turn them anti-clockwise until they stop. Then use a pick with a 90 degree tip to pry it out. They pop out easily that way. Then you just snip the two limiter tabs with side cuts, and file it smooth, and put them back in.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Todd Williams said:


> Just an FYI on the limiter caps on Echo saws. You don't have to drill them out. Turn them anti-clockwise until they stop. Then use a pick with a 90 degree tip to pry it out. They pop out easily that way. Then you just snip the two limiter tabs with side cuts, and file it smooth, and put them back in.



Easier yet...no need to turn them to any certain position and no need to use a screw to get them out (which buggers up the flat head slot). Just take your 90* pick and pull the metal retainer out. Then pull both limiters out with your pick also. Trim the tabs, put them back in...then snap the metal retainer back in.


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## mountainlake (Dec 24, 2015)

Use a bench grinder to grind those tabs off, takes about 2 seconds. Steve


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## TimberWolf530 (Dec 24, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> Use a bench grinder to grind those tabs off, takes about 2 seconds. Steve


If you're going to use a bench grinder for it, be very careful. The first one I did, with just a little pressure the tab came off in about a milisecond, and it flattened it out. It would be easy to grind right through it if you're not extremely careful. It's not hard to snip them with side cuts and smooth it with a file, and it gives me more control. To each his own, but I feel much safer doing this job manually.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Todd Williams said:


> If you're going to use a bench grinder for it, be very careful. The first one I did, with just a little pressure the tab came off in about a milisecond, and it flattened it out. It would be easy to grind right through it if you're not extremely careful. It's not hard to snip them with side cuts and smooth it with a file, and it gives me more control. To each his own, but I feel much safer doing this job manually.



The little sanding disk on a Dremel works good too.


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## Rockjock (Dec 24, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> Unlike some on here I can easily understand that Echo has to set their saws lean and clog up the muff to get by the EPA, if you are incapable of dealing with those 2 issues get yourself a gutless low quality MS270 .. Steve




Steve do read what I wrote. I understand it is not your strong suit.. I said that it was a loaner and that the customer liked it. I also pointed out it was a stock saw that had not been adjusted. You and Cliff are not grasping what I am saying. Simply put you praise the saw as being the best thing out there and yet you also dam the company for making it run so poorly out of the box because of its lack of knowledge to tune the saw correctly. How does that make any sense at all? I thought Echo made the saw not the EPA so why keep blaming them? Stihl is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Husqvarna able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Dolmar is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. , Jonsered is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. And they all are EPA compliant saws. But I do wish you both a happy christmas


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## mountainlake (Dec 24, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Steve do read what I wrote. I understand it is not your strong suit.. I said that it was a loaner and that the customer liked it. I also pointed out it was a stock saw that had not been adjusted. You and Cliff are not grasping what I am saying. Simply put you praise the saw as being the best thing out there and yet you also dam the company for making it run so poorly out of the box because of its lack of knowledge to tune the saw correctly. How does that make any sense at all? I thought Echo made the saw not the EPA so why keep blaming them? Stihl is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Husqvarna able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Dolmar is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. , Jonsered is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. And they all are EPA compliant saws. But I do wish you both a happy christmas




You sir are the one damming Echo for putting out a saw that needs to be tuned, most of the rest of us on here can live with that as it takes less than 20 minutes to tune and open up the muff if you know how and are willing to do it.. I can read just fine and your post about a gutless MS270 makes it sound like it just as good as a CS590 when it's no where near the saw in quality or power of a well tuned CS590. Most likely your customers were running a Cs590 as it came, tuned lean with a pea sized muff opening. I've seen plenty of post on here and elsewhere where other brands come tuned lean also, I wouldn't run any new saw , any brand without tuning it for the fuel, temp and elevation it's going to run at and you or anyone else shouldn't either. Plus if you can't figure it out the EPA is why saws or any small engine comes tuned lean. Steve


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## Rockjock (Dec 24, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> You sir are the one damming Echo for putting out a saw that needs to be tuned, most of the rest of us on here can live with that as it takes less than 20 minutes to tune and open up the muff if you know how and are willing to do it.. I can read just fine and your post about a gutless MS270 makes it sound like it just as good as a CS590 when it's no where near the saw in quality or power of a well tuned CS590. Most likely your customers were running a Cs590 as it came, tuned lean with a pea sized muff opening.




YOU and your lackie are the one running Echo threw the mud my friend. As I have said the loaner saw I have is a 270 and the bloke who dropped off his echo liked using it. MY point was that it is a saw out the box and it ran well something that according to you and your minion is well beyond Echo to do. Do correct me if I am mistaken. I did not say that I have had many echo products that needed to be tuned, that was cliff, If you need be upset with someone you need look no further than your lackie. I admit I did say that the other saw makers seemed to know how to sell a usable saw out the box and if that upsets you why not contact Echo and educate them on the finer points of saw tuning. Send them a video of your technique, they may offer you a job, a consulting fee, a echo hat.. Steve with all do respect if I were to buy a saw and it needed to be tuned as badly as you and your lackie claim I would simply return it and get something that runs right. What I can tell you first hand is I have sold hundreds of saws and I can recall only 1 time I had to do some fine tuning on the saw. That to me speaks volumes.


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## mountainlake (Dec 24, 2015)

Let not backtrack on your past post. The only thing I'm upset about is your whining about the fact that Echo saws need to be tuned to meet the EPA regs in the US which you don't seem to be able to figure out. I and most dealers (except the ones that are too lazy) plus most on here have no problem with tuning a new saw. There is no way I'd buy a gutless low quality MS270 over a CS590. Steve


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## Cliff R (Dec 24, 2015)

I would like to know what a "lackie" and "minion" are? Since you have directed those comments at me, I may have to take offense to it. Unless someone reading this thread is completely retarded, I don't have a fancy handle, my name is Cliff, not "lackie" or "minion", and I'd appreciated being called by my name, thank you. Since we are getting personal here, your comments toward others are noticeably condescending, to a point where you make very crafty comments to try to make others believe that you are possibly smarter, faster, stronger, taller, more educated and have greater depth of experience with these things than the rest of us. It appears that you may have a business of some sort, I and decided after your second condescending post that had my name in it that I would NEVER, EVER, for any reason spend one cent of my money with you.

Steve seems to have a good bit of DIRECT experience with USA delivered Echo power equipment as well. Our results with these saws have always been pretty close. A very good friend of mine worked for many years at an Echo Warranty facility, and he's the one who got me started on Echo power equipment. He told me that one of Echo's main objectives is to be well with EPA compliance, and in the same sentence told me that they run a fine line of being lean vs potential P/C failure. They simply expect a certain percentage to fail as they will not have full control of all the parameters that equipment will operate in once it reaches it's final destination. Yes, was told that by a factory trained technician who did it for a living for nearly 20 years. He since moved on and up in the World, but is still one of the best and most knowledgeable small equipment tech that I know.

I've seen a good number of Echo P/C's damaged by lean carb settings, and to date haven't seen any chainsaws that didn't benefit from richening them up some (yes, unless you don't do math well that's 100 percent). I tend to be a bit more critical than most, and when I lay down my hard earned money for something, I want it to work at it's peak potential, and provide many years of reliable service. I still don't go as far as many do on AS, porting, reducing squish, moving the timing around, etc. At most I'll do a minor muffler mod in conjunction with correct carb tuning.........Cliff

PS: just to make things really interesting, I dropped the hammer on a new CS-590 this morning, so stay tuned......


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## Rockjock (Dec 24, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> Let not backtrack on your past post. The only thing I'm upset about is your whining about the fact that Echo saws need to be tuned to meet the EPA regs in the US which you don't seem to be able to figure out. I and most dealers (except the ones that are too lazy) plus most on here have no problem with tuning a new saw. There is no way I'd buy a gutless low quality MS270 over a CS590. Steve



Mike I was not whining. I was TOLD that they MUST be retuned or they would blow up. I debated that fact because many many many saws are bought and never touched by home-owners and they run a good 20 years. I was then told again that they MUST be adjusted and I assumed that ECHO was a world class manufacture and did test the saws, use atmospheric chambers and did extensive product testing BUT I was then told how could they know where the saw was going. I kept being told that ECHO was a lesser product by your chum.. sorry lacky and minion hard to get the right English word out. As far as being bigger smarter better than others I think that a stretch. This is a chainsaw enthusiasts site. I am a novice at this. But in product testing, design and implementation, failure analysis, engineering I might be smarter then most. But as I stated that is a Chainsaw enthusiasts site and we all bring our life experience into this forum.


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## mountainlake (Dec 24, 2015)

You really have a hard time understanding that due to the USA EPA a lot of small engines are tuned lean, it's not rocket science. Steve


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## stubnail67 (Dec 24, 2015)

cant wait to see cliffs write up and before and after videos....


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## Cliff R (Dec 24, 2015)

I'm really looking forward to doing some testing and evaluating the CS-590, plus comparisons against my Husqvarna 262XP. It's already been shipped, so should be here in a few days. I'll start out testing it stone stock, but will NOT do full power cuts with it if the WOT A/F ratio is too lean for my liking. So it may get the limiter caps removed but no other modifications before testing it. 

I've heard that the muffler exit hole is tiny, so making an upgrade there is on the list. I haven't bought a saw for myself in a while, been too busy in the shop and finishing up my latest book. The fun will begin next week, I'll put up a thread at some point on how things go with it........Cliff


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## Conquistador3 (Dec 25, 2015)

livemusic said:


> I've read quite a bit about Echo cs-590 and then found that someone said it could be 'turned into' a 600 with some mods. And then I read that now there is a 620 that is basically the same saw just more powerful? There may have been a couple of other differences, such as less plastic. But the 620 costs, like, $250 more? sheesh. I guess the 590 would be plenty for somebody like me who just needs a reliable saw to cut some firewood and occasional downed tree.



The CS-590, 600 and 620 all come with the same engine rating here. So you are basically correct: underneath the "bodywork" it's the same engine. 
Starting with the 2016 model, the 620 comes with a Sugihara 20" bar as standard instead of the Tsumura it had before. The 620 seems a very nice saw overall, but we are talking Stihl money: it costs the same as the MS291. 

And you would be perfectly right: for what you need to do the standard 590 is perfectly fine.


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> I'm really looking forward to doing some testing and evaluating the CS-590, plus comparisons against my Husqvarna 262XP. It's already been shipped, so should be here in a few days. I'll start out testing it stone stock, but will NOT do full power cuts with it if the WOT A/F ratio is too lean for my liking. So it may get the limiter caps removed but no other modifications before testing it.
> 
> I've heard that the muffler exit hole is tiny, so making an upgrade there is on the list. I haven't bought a saw for myself in a while, been too busy in the shop and finishing up my latest book. The fun will begin next week, I'll put up a thread at some point on how things go with it........Cliff



Cutting the "90" out of the deflector will help a lot and only takes 5 minutes. You may not be comfortable punching holes in the muff and that will make the saw louder as well. Just doing the deflector and trimming the tabs...you will be very happy with that saw.

EDIT: I have a 600p that I cut the deflector out of, punched 6 holes in the muff (around the stock pipe), and trimmed the tabs. Set at 12,500 rpm's, that saw is VERY impressive for having such simple mods. I recently made some test cuts on some dry, very tough elm and it was amazing how much I could lean on it.


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## Cliff R (Dec 25, 2015)

Thanks for the pics. Is the muffler equipped with CAT? Some of the later Echo saws I've worked on used them. On the CS-370/400's the muffler is relatively easy to modify, on the CS-330/360T's it has to cut/split them MIG welded back together when you are done.

Is the CS-590 the same engine as used on the 600's and 620's? Is it a Strato-charged design, or open or closed P/C set-up?........Cliff


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## mountainlake (Dec 25, 2015)

No strato, no CAT. The CS590 and CS600 are the same closed port, the CS620 is closed port also but might have a higher exhaust port for higher RPM and a more open muff. You'll find the CS590 will cut really good with tuning and a good muff modd .. Most likely no see as much gain on the 620 as I think they come with a more open muff Steve


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## Macman125 (Dec 25, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> The EPA is the main reason things are as they are here. Since I own and have owned quite a few Echo products over several decades now, I have seen them continue to make changes to their engines in search of more power, and efficiency. If you want inefficiency, pick up one of their smaller top or side handle reed valve engine models, CS-300 for example. They are underpowered, stinky, and inefficient. Echo moved on to piston ported smaller models with better success there. I have a good example with my CS-360T. It was quite lethargic right out of the box, and WAY too lean for my liking, but it did work OK within the limits of the factory caps on the L and H screws. At the stock settings it had a very annoying hesitation until fully warmed up, and even then it was BARELY acceptable from an operator standpoint. It also has an annoying rev-limiter that is reached very easily when the saw had the factory lean settings.
> 
> Removing the limiter caps was a nice improvement for that saw, but it was still "sluggish" and a bit down on power. A muffler mod was the next improvement, and low and behold I now have a really nice running top handle saw one would be proud of. It has great power for the cc's, and has been dead solid reliable now for many years. The only negative to that saw is the "bulky" design for a top handle.
> 
> ...



I have a cs360t as well. I Had to do the same mods to get the thing to run right. After removing the catalyst from the muffler, removing the caps from the carb and retuning it, it runs awesome.



Rockjock said:


> YOU and your lackie are the one running Echo threw the mud my friend. As I have said the loaner saw I have is a 270 and the bloke who dropped off his echo liked using it. MY point was that it is a saw out the box and it ran well something that according to you and your minion is well beyond Echo to do. Do correct me if I am mistaken. I did not say that I have had many echo products that needed to be tuned, that was cliff,  If you need be upset with someone you need look no further than your lackie. I admit I did say that the other saw makers seemed to know how to sell a usable saw out the box and if that upsets you why not contact Echo and educate them on the finer points of saw tuning. Send them a video of your technique, they may offer you a job, a consulting fee, a echo hat.. Steve with all do respect if I were to buy a saw and it needed to be tuned as badly as you and your lackie claim I would simply return it and get something that runs right. What I can tell you first hand is I have sold hundreds of saws and I can recall only 1 time I had to do some fine tuning on the saw. That to me speaks volumes.



I have a couple echo saws and have worked on several for my friends. All of them ran very poorly at first and benefited greatly from properly tuning them and muffler mods on a some of them. The general consensus here says that tuning them provides a improvement in performance and longevity. It really is not that hard to take 20 minutes or so to properly tune one in. I love my echo products, only after tuning them to run to my satisfaction first.


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## Cliff R (Dec 25, 2015)

"No strato, no CAT. The CS590 and CS600 are the same closed port"

Thanks Steve. I usually do some research before a purchase like this, but saw one on Ebay at a great price so decided to take the plunge and see what these newer models are all about? I'll start out with limiter caps removed and fine tuned only, get some time on it, then open up the muffler and see if it helps it out some?

That is the only mod's the CS-510 needed and it's an excellent running saw for 50cc, I'm hoping to get similar results with the CS-590......Cliff


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## n240sxguy (Dec 25, 2015)

I opened my Christmas present this morning. A CS-590 that I had put under the tree.  I've never used a good saw before today. This thing is awesome. My old, poor running, never tuned or adjusted by me, Poulan 4218 is currently on eBay with bad compression and a scored piston. I've watched all the vids about the muffler mods and limiter tab removal. The dealer either had the high and low set out as far as the limiters would go, or removed them and just dropped them back in after adjusting it. I took them out and cut the tabs off, put grease around the air filter fitting, and checked the compression. It's 150-160. Curious what it'll be when it gets broken in. I made a couple cuts, then opened the high a 1/4 turn. Made another 1/4 turn out and cut again. Then started turning it back in. I think it's about 1/8 turn open from where it was set from the dealer. I'm loving it so far.


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

Yep, what Mountainlake said...no cat, no strato. I thought the 590 and 600 were basically the same engine but they do have different numbers on some parts:

TOP:
Carb: Same (HDA-268A)
Cyl: Different (590: A130002041) (600p: A310000910)
Piston Kit: Different (590: P021038790) (600p: P021015190)
Ring: Same (A101000210)
Coil: Different (590: A411000340) (600p: A411000450)

BOTTOM:
Crank: Different (590: A011001270) (600p: A011000540)
Crank Bearings: Different (590: 9403646202) (600p: V592000000)
Clutch Assy: Same (A056000221)

I have a feeling the 600p has been beefed up in certain areas like the crank and bearings but I can't confirm that. Maybe someone who has been deeper into the machine than I could confirm. That would make sense since the 590 is sold as a homeowner model. 

Performance wise, I don't think there is a lot of difference between the two. My gut tells me, however, the 600p has been built to hold up better long term to more use/abuse (pro model vs. homeowner).


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> No strato, no CAT. The CS590 and CS600 are the same closed port, the CS620 is closed port also but might have a higher exhaust port for higher RPM and a more open muff. You'll find the CS590 will cut really good with tuning and a good muff modd .. Most likely no see as much gain *on the 620 as I think they come with a more open muff* Steve



The 620p has the same stuffed up muff and needs the same MM as the 590/600. In the cut, I can't tell a lot of difference between the 600p and the 620p (both MM'd and tuned.). One of these days I will do some timed cuts between the two...I think it will be surprising to some.


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## mountainlake (Dec 25, 2015)

I was just going by the part numbers, the 590 and 600 are the , the 620 is different. Steve


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> I was just going by the part numbers, the 590 and 600 are the , the 620 is different. Steve



Yep, the 590 and 600 share the same muffler part number (A300001570) and the 620 is different (A300001810). The only difference between the three is the deflector plate. Some come with the "90" welded onto the deflector so it is one unit. Others come with the "90" as a separate piece from the deflector making it easier...just take the piece out instead of cutting it out with a Dremel. As far as the muffler itself, they are all the same as far as I can tell.

EDIT: This is the parts diagram for the deflector plates but I believe it is in error. I'm almost positive that my 620's "90" came out with no cutting and the 600's "90" had to be cut out. Not that it matters, but future buyers should know that they will get one of the two. I think e-replacementparts may have the diagrams mixed up. I think the top and bottom diagrams are for the 590 & 600 (90 must be cut) and the middle diagram is the 620 (no cutting).

cs-590:





cs-600p:






cs-620p:


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## Cliff R (Dec 25, 2015)

It is interesting that the CS-590, CS-600 and CS-620 all have the same size engine, but differences in part numbers for the major engine components. I'm not overly concerned about the CS-590 far as durability. I haven't had the first P/C, or crank/bearing issue with any of my Echo power equipment. They tend to make everything pretty tough, even the "homeowner" rated stuff, at least from what I've seen here......Cliff


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> It is interesting that the CS-590, CS-600 and CS-620 all have the same size engine, but differences in part numbers for the major engine components. I'm not overly concerned about the CS-590 far as durability. I haven't had the first P/C, or crank/bearing issue with any of my Echo power equipment. They tend to make everything pretty tough, even the "homeowner" rated stuff, at least from what I've seen here......Cliff



I agree. And I think I might have been wrong with my earlier statement that the 600p may have been built stronger than the 590 in certain critical areas like the crank and bearings. The 590 shares too many major parts with the 620 (the most powerful of the three) for that to be true. In fact, the 590 and 620 share the same:

- Crank Assy
- Crank Bearings
- Clutch Assy
- Starter Assy
- Flywheel

I have spent the last 2 hours digging through parts diagrams comparing the 590/600/620 and I have come to this conclusion: The cs-590 is one hell of a bargain because it shares many parts with the "higher end", pro model 600 and 620. Performance wise, I don't think the average guy will notice much difference between the three...all mods being equal.


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## Vibes (Dec 26, 2015)

drf255 said:


> And a big "I have a potty mouth" to you too...
> 
> I'll opine whenever I want to, here or anywhere.
> 
> ...


 Your angry response makes KNOW you are a total tool. Your original response to a relatively new guy who is wondering about a new saw and asking for opinions makes know you are an even bigger TOOL.

The guys asking for advice on an item. You have nothing to say about the item except that he should buy something he's not asking about. Then you make a claim that you can't back up and from my experience is false. And you state it as an absolute then tell me too f#ck myself. Keep calm and also add to the thread. Opine to the point my friend or opine elsewhere


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## Vibes (Dec 26, 2015)

Oh and by the way. Good thread! 

I'm pointing a friend towards this saw. He's on a budget and his saw just got stolen. I told him he could get this very saw new with warraunty for slightly more for some rebuild with who knows what brand of AM parts.


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

Vibes said:


> Oh and by the way. Good thread!
> 
> I'm pointing a friend towards this saw. He's on a budget and his saw just got stolen. I told him he could get this very saw new with warraunty for slightly more for some rebuild with who knows what brand of AM parts.



If your friend is on a budget, the 590 can't be beat. Especially if he is or knows someone that is in the military. The 590 can be bought at Home Depot for $399 and military members get 10% off that price. That puts it at $360. If he doesn't know already, teach your friend how easy the MM and tune is on the 590 and he will smile from ear to ear.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there isn't a new 60cc saw on the face of the earth that will deliver that price vs. performance ratio. A simple MM and tune and that saw will cut right close with any stock 60cc saw.


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

Some interesting info concerning part numbers for the cs-590:

- It shares the same carb as the 600p
- It shares the same ring as the 600p and 620p
- It shares the same muffler as the 600p
- It shares the same crank assy. as the 620p
- It shares the same crank bearings as the 620p
- It shares the same clutch assy. as the 600p and 620p
- It shares the same starter assy. as the 620p
- It shares the same auto oil assy. as the 600p
- It shares the same flywheel as the 600p and 620p

It's impressive, with the 590's price point, how many parts it shares with the higher end models and these are major parts (except the ring). Looks like the only thing it doesn't share with the 600p or 620p is the cylinder, piston kit, coil, crankcase kit, bar, and handle (there may be some other smaller things). If I missed something major, let me know and I will update.


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

jakewells said:


> for the time being i would pull the limiters i only modded the factory deflector when i had mine.*Later on if you want to you can add a unlimited coil from a cs 620 the original coil is limited*.



IMO, no real benefit in spending nearly $100 to upgrade to an unlimited coil if the saw only has a MM and tune...unless you just like to hear it rev.


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> I don't see the purpose of having these discussions if everyone really believes that all of this power equipment is up to par right out of the box, and he factory has left the owner/tuner enough room to dial in the carburetor to give the engine the fuel that it needs with the limiter caps in place. If you can deal with a piece of power equipment, Echo or anything else that runs poorly until it's fully warmed up, and even then is a bit lethargic and not making the power that it should, why even bother being a member here and reading responses from folks who know how to make them work like they are supposed to?
> 
> I recently inherited a Husqvarna leaf blower from my father-in-law and found that it was more "in range" within the limits of the factory mixture screws than the Echo leaf blowers I've worked on. I also recently worked on a newer Husqvarna 235 chainsaw and it was pretty close right out of the box. I was still able to help both of them out with a little tuning, but they would have been OK as-is and probably never had an issue with the P/C due directly to being set too lean from the factory.
> 
> Steve is correct in his earlier post about the potential of P/C damage to these saws. I have ran into a number of lean-seized Echo chainsaws, but to date haven't seen any string trimmers or leaf blowers with P/C issues directly related to running too lean. For this reason I quit buying used Echo chainsaws off of Ebay, got three in a row that had P/C damage and all had very little run time on them. In most cases if you are patient a new in the box saw can be had on Ebay for only a few dollars more than what used ones will bring, Then, IF you are educated in these things the carburetor can be set correctly before any P/C damage occurs and you'll end up with a chainsaw that will last for many years and provide impressive and reliable service.....FWIW.....Cliff



Can't speak for all of the Echo lineup but the 590/600/620 have a bypass in the carb so lean seizure is avoided. I'm living proof you can fully seat the H needle and not burn up the saw. I'm not recommending doing so, just touching on the point that these saws have some safety built into them.

At least with the 600 series Echo's, I don't understand how someone could burn one up, new out of the box, with proper mix. Still, I totally agree with deleting the tabs and tuning any saw you own.


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## Cliff R (Dec 26, 2015)

I did a quick parts look up and the CS-590 and CS-600 showed the same piston, cylinder, ring and carburetor. The CS-620 shows a different piston, cylinder and carburetor.

The CS-590, CS-600 and CS-620 all use the same flywheel, but all use different coils. The 620 coil is the least expensive of the three at $86 retail, the CS-590 coil is $139, the CS-600 $106. Not sure what the big difference in those coils would be, but I'll bet the CS-590's expensive coil is for sure either rpm limiting or retards the timing at high rpm's.

It would be interesting to know if the CS-620 coil with fit the CS-590?........Cliff


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> I did a quick parts look up and the CS-590 and CS-600 showed the *same piston, cylinder, *ring and carburetor. The CS-620 shows a different piston, cylinder and carburetor.
> 
> The CS-590, CS-600 and CS-620 all use the same flywheel, but all use different coils. The 620 coil is the least expensive of the three at $86 retail, the CS-590 coil is $139, the CS-600 $106. Not sure what the big difference in those coils would be, but I'll bet the CS-590's expensive coil is for sure either rpm limiting or retards the timing at high rpm's.
> 
> It would be interesting to know if the CS-620 coil with fit the CS-590?........Cliff



Ereplacementparts is showing a different part number for piston kit and also showing the cylinder on the 600p as "obsolete" (A310000910). Does that mean the 600p gets the 620p cylinder now?

I believe the 620p coil will work on the 590 (@jakewells said he did it) but, like I said above, I see no need for it unless you are doing more than just a MM and tune.


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## jeff taswelder (Dec 26, 2015)

Stihl shops down here tune every saw before it leaves the store.
so does the husqvarna shop.


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

jeff taswelder said:


> Stihl shops down here tune every saw before it leaves the store.
> so does the husqvarna shop.



Are you on the same page as the rest of us?


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## jeff taswelder (Dec 26, 2015)

i re tune all my saws 

edit. page what page


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## Cliff R (Dec 26, 2015)

"Ereplacementparts is showing a different part number for piston kit and also showing the cylinder on the 600p as "obsolete" (A310000910)."

I used the latest serial number range when I looked up the parts for each saw, so earlier versions may have used different P/C's. That's about all the research I'll do on the CS-590 for now, I'll wait till it shows up and spend some time with it and move on from there. As it relates to this thread, rest assured I'll let everyone know if the carb was even close right out of the box. In the same sentence I will NOT run my new saw if it's lean for any reason. That's about the worst thing you can do to a new piece of 2 stroke power equipment, as the fuel carries the lubricant as well, so between high EGT's, high rpm's and lacking lube oil.....piss poor way to bring a new saw into service.......IMHO......Cliff


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## Idahonative (Dec 26, 2015)

Cliff R said:


> "Ereplacementparts is showing a different part number for piston kit and also showing the cylinder on the 600p as "obsolete" (A310000910)."
> 
> I used the latest serial number range when I looked up the parts for each saw, so earlier versions may have used different P/C's. That's about all the research I'll do on the CS-590 for now, I'll wait till it shows up and spend some time with it and move on from there. As it relates to this thread, rest assured I'll let everyone know if the carb was even close right out of the box. In the same sentence I will NOT run my new saw if it's lean for any reason. That's about the worst thing you can do to a new piece of 2 stroke power equipment, as the fuel carries the lubricant as well, so between high EGT's, high rpm's and lacking lube oil.....piss poor way to bring a new saw into service.......IMHO......Cliff



I don't think anyone will disagree with you that lube is a good thing for a 2 stroke (or any engine for that matter).

Oh, and put a tach on your new saw, right out of the box, and let us know what it reads.


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## jr27236 (Dec 31, 2015)

Great thread on the cs590, but out of all the threads I read, this one has gotten the most vicious at times out of all I've read .


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## STL028 (Dec 31, 2015)

This site is awesome. My 590 was set from the factory at 12,630rpm. I haven't changed that yet, but did adjust the l screw so it would start and accelerate as it should. This saw is just what I need. My other saw is a Stihl 028 super.


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## ColoForester (Mar 22, 2018)

Hey everyone, 

New member to this site but I have used it quite a bit with finding answers to my questions but I have one that I haven't been able to figure out. Most of my experience is with Stihl, Echo top-handle. This is my first full sized Echo saw. 

I have a 590 and I would like to put a full wrap handle on it. We are using them more at work since we bringing our saws up to the USFS standard and I would like to do the same with my personal saw. 

So, my question is:

Will the handle from the 620PW fit on a 590? It's my understanding that these two saws are quite similar. The echo customer service said it wont fit but they didn't sound quite sure. Figuring someone on here has at least tried it. 

Thanks!


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## James Miller (Mar 22, 2018)

ColoForester said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> New member to this site but I have used it quite a bit with finding answers to my questions but I have one that I haven't been able to figure out. Most of my experience is with Stihl, Echo top-handle. This is my first full sized Echo saw.
> 
> ...


The 620p full wrap will work on the 590. I like the way they look but don't do much falling so it would be more of a hindrance then a help for me.


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## Cliff R (Mar 23, 2018)

+2, it will work, but I'd look at the IPL's for both saws to make sure you have the correct hardware to mount the full wrap handle. I didn't look at mine but I'm pretty sure it will use different screws and other associated parts.......Cliff


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## ColoForester (Mar 23, 2018)

Cliff R said:


> +2, it will work, but I'd look at the IPL's for both saws to make sure you have the correct hardware to mount the full wrap handle. I didn't look at mine but I'm pretty sure it will use different screws and other associated parts.......Cliff


Ok thanks for the responses, guys. When I spoke with the woman at Echo she said there is a mounting piece/kit I would need but they dont sell it for my saw. I dont mind buying what I need to make it work. 

What is an IPL?


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## Cliff R (Mar 23, 2018)

Here is a link to your saw and IPL's. An IPL is an illustrated parts list so picture and part number, availability and price, etc.

I just used this company as a reference, there are many others doing the same thing and folks on this site that sell Echo parts, etc.

http://www.partstree.com/parts/search/models/?searchTerm=cs-590

Of course the full wrap handle not being offered as an option may not show up in any of those IPL's, so you'll have to look up what a CS-620 used and go with those part numbers instead......Cliff


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## ColoForester (Mar 23, 2018)

Cliff R said:


> Here is a link to your saw and IPL's. An IPL is an illustrated parts list so picture and part number, availability and price, etc.
> 
> I just used this company as a reference, there are many others doing the same thing and folks on this site that sell Echo parts, etc.
> 
> ...



Awesome, Thanks Cliff. When we upgraded our Husky 365 to a full wrap and oversized dogs I just called Baileys and they found me a kit for the 372XP for around $30. Our Stihl 460 on the other hand, the full wrap was over $100 and dogs were about $30. Its too bad Echo doesn't have the aftermarket support that Stihl and Husky have.


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## ColoForester (Mar 23, 2018)

So, I ordered whatever parts that were not currently on the 590 that were necessary to mount the full wrap handle. 
I will post a comprehensive list of parts needed to install the full wrap on a 590 once I receive them and confirm that they work.


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## RandyinTN (Mar 23, 2018)

I was planning on buying a Timberwolf for my next saw but now thinking of the next model up with the full wrap handle. Am looking forward to your comments if the parts fit and your review on the saw with the handle installed


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## ColoForester (Mar 23, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> I was planning on buying a Timberwolf for my next saw but now thinking of the next model up with the full wrap handle. Am looking forward to your comments if the parts fit and your review on the saw with the handle installed



If I had to do it over again I'd just buy the 620 with the full wrap. I have already invested over $200 in improvements to the saw that I would have got if I just bought the 620PW. I paid $400 for the 590 from Forestry Suppliers and added a 24" oregon power match with chain ($90 w/shipping from Baileys) and now a full wrap for $130 or so with shipping.


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## RandyinTN (Mar 23, 2018)

ColoForester said:


> If I had to do it over again I'd just buy the 620 with the full wrap. I have already invested over $200 in improvements to the saw that I would have got if I just bought the 620PW. I paid $400 for the 590 from Forestry Suppliers and added a 24" oregon power match with chain ($90 w/shipping from Baileys) and now a full wrap for $130 or so with shipping.


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## RandyinTN (Mar 23, 2018)

Thanks for the advice. Guess my next saw will now be the 620. I was already planning on the 24 inch bar.


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## ColoForester (Mar 23, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> Thanks for the advice. Guess my next saw will now be the 620.


I guess it really depends on what you are doing with it. If you are just cutting firewood the 590 is a great saw for the money. 

If you want to practice more advanced technical falling and cutting techniques then get the 620pw. Personally and professionally I would like to improve my saw skills and gain a more advanced sawyer certification for wildland fire and fuels mitigation work. Ive been a Faller A for the past 10 years and would like to have a B certification for my red card.


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## BB Sig (Mar 28, 2018)

Just an update on mufflers...

My 620P muffler 90* was spot welded on. Dremel took care of that very quickly. It's amazing that a little piece of metal can slow a good saw down so much...

If you get the 620, go ahead and get the 27" bar. Then call @fordf150 for the stihl bar adapter and get a 20" bar and chains. Far cheaper this way and you now have more options for bars, you have saved money and supported a good member of this forum!


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## Deleted member 149229 (Mar 28, 2018)

I’m guessing but I was thinking @svk had a pic posted of a full wrap on a 590. Since I tagged him we’ll find out.


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## James Miller (Mar 29, 2018)

@Big Block had a full wrap on his 590. It came off @BGE541 620pw. A ported 590 is a better option the the 620 in my opinion.


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## ColoForester (Mar 29, 2018)

Just curious why go through the hassle of converting to a Stihl bar/chain? What sort of benefits over an Oregon or other brand that already makes a bar that readily fits the Echo? 

side note: Seems like lots of PA folks on here. Originally from NEPA, myself.


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## svk (Mar 29, 2018)

Dahmer said:


> I’m guessing but I was thinking @svk had a pic posted of a full wrap on a 590. Since I tagged him we’ll find out.


I forget which member here did it but they used a 372 wrap that just needed a hole or two drilled.


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## James Miller (Mar 29, 2018)

svk said:


> I forget which member here did it but they used a 372 wrap that just needed a hole or two drilled.


pretty sure it was @Czed.


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## fordf150 (Mar 29, 2018)

ColoForester said:


> Just curious why go through the hassle of converting to a Stihl bar/chain? What sort of benefits over an Oregon or other brand that already makes a bar that readily fits the Echo?
> 
> side note: Seems like lots of PA folks on here. Originally from NEPA, myself.


its not converting to "stihl brand" bar and chain just stihl mount bar.

echo uses a weird bar mount that limits your options for bars to echo branded oregon bars or oregon bars and the corresponding odd drive link counts.


using a bar adapter and stihl mount bar opens your options up dramatically on brands and styles of bars you can run while also giving you standard drive link counts for the chain.

best example of the reason for doing this is on a 20" bar. 

D176 mount takes a 70DL chain which i sell for $15.40 now switch that out to running a bar adapter($12) and lets go with a Tsumura bar($44) and the corresponding 72DL chain $13.49. notice thats a $2 savings on every chain you buy plus the ability to buy a Tsumura bar that isnt available in the echo D176 mount.


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## row.man (Mar 29, 2018)

From what I've read on another page, the 620 has two rings, 590 only one, and echo dropped the 600 from the lineup


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## tpence2177 (Mar 29, 2018)

svk said:


> I forget which member here did it but they used a 372 wrap that just needed a hole or two drilled.



He basically just makes a plate to bolt from the original bolt hole to the 372 full wrap from what I remember. I have a 372 half wrap from hutzl that I won on eBay for $8 and then I bent/ trimmed to fit mine mine. Kinda wanting a full wrap now though lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ColoForester (Mar 30, 2018)

fordf150 said:


> its not converting to "stihl brand" bar and chain just stihl mount bar.
> 
> echo uses a weird bar mount that limits your options for bars to echo branded oregon bars or oregon bars and the corresponding odd drive link counts.
> 
> ...


Got it, thanks.


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## stubnail67 (Mar 30, 2018)

this is the one i been eye balling....


https://www.ebay.com/itm/381997194699?ul_noapp=true


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## fordf150 (Mar 31, 2018)

its just a cheap chinese bar, actually same as the old total 2 bars. bars werent bad overall but the tips were crappy. 

I think i have one of those left on the shelf that could be sold for a decent deal.


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## stubnail67 (Mar 31, 2018)

fordf150 said:


> its just a cheap chinese bar, actually same as the old total 2 bars. bars werent bad overall but the tips were crappy.
> 
> I think i have one of those left on the shelf that could be sold for a decent deal.




define decent deal....


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## Nframe (Mar 31, 2018)

My Echo 590 has been used HARD, in very long cuts, on big Oak stumps too... hasn't Burned out yet, 2 years. Dealer had adjusted it and I dremeled out the muffler deflector considerably (screen removed too), which seemed to give it more power, sounds meaner anyhow! Lol!. And, I use a 40/1 mix. For appx. $400, hard to find a better 60cc saw in my opinion. Of Course, Jonsereds / Red Husky's are far sexier and quite an upgrade, and more pricy.


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## tpence2177 (Mar 31, 2018)

fordf150 said:


> its just a cheap chinese bar, actually same as the old total 2 bars. bars werent bad overall but the tips were crappy.
> 
> I think i have one of those left on the shelf that could be sold for a decent deal.



How hard is it to change tips? Do you have to have a special tool for the rivet on the new one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## fordf150 (Mar 31, 2018)

tpence2177 said:


> How hard is it to change tips? Do you have to have a special tool for the rivet on the new one?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


oregon tips or really any tip is easy to replace, just a matter of drilling the head off the rivet or drilling the rivet completely out and install new the tip.....hammer the new rivet flat. no special tools needed.


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## tpence2177 (Mar 31, 2018)

fordf150 said:


> oregon tips or really any tip is easy to replace, just a matter of drilling the head off the rivet or drilling the rivet completely out and install new the tip.....hammer the new rivet flat. no special tools needed.



Thanks I’m looking at the 20” 72dl archer pro bar and chain when my echo bar wears out. It’s much easier to get 72dl chains around here because no one spins chains anymore. Talked my stihl dealer into it once and they said they can’t do it anymore. If I have to replace the tip after a while I’m still cheaper than an adapter and a stihl bar. It’s $39 with a chain on eBay. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## fordf150 (Mar 31, 2018)

stubnail67 said:


> define decent deal....


I have 1 D009 24" Total 2 bar left on the shelf. 
$32 for the bar, $16.49 for oregon lgx or jgx chain. $10 shipping. I guess it comes up to be almost the same price but with oregon chain instead of chinese.....does that qualify as decent deal? In my head it seemed like it would be a better deal than that


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## tpence2177 (Mar 31, 2018)

Considering I paid $35 for the 20” Oregon chain locally that sounds good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Deleted member 149229 (Mar 31, 2018)

tpence2177 said:


> Considering I paid $35 for the 20” Oregon chain locally that sounds good!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ouch!


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## tpence2177 (Mar 31, 2018)

It was right after a big tornado came through like 2 weeks ago so not sure if that is three regular price or their storm price 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## fordf150 (Mar 31, 2018)

tpence2177 said:


> It was right after a big tornado came through like 2 weeks ago so not sure if that is three regular price or their storm price
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


storm price should be the same as regular IMHO


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## tpence2177 (Mar 31, 2018)

fordf150 said:


> storm price should be the same as regular IMHO



Agreed Lowe’s was $32 plus tax for the same chain my local shop was $35 total so I figure that’s their regular price and just supported them instead of Lowe’s. Can’t hand file worth a dang and barely got what I wanted to get some storm trees down to for who I was helping so I went ahead and got a third chain so I can help longer next time. 
I grind them at home and can hand file enough to get by but mine always gets sharper on one side than the other hand filing so I got by without full chains they just weren’t cutting straight lol. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RandyinTN (Mar 31, 2018)

Tpence 
If you ever make it up near Cookeville I’ll show you how well my $33 chain grinder from Amazon works. Just bring your chains.


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## stubnail67 (Mar 31, 2018)

fordf150 said:


> I have 1 D009 24" Total 2 bar left on the shelf.
> $32 for the bar, $16.49 for oregon lgx or jgx chain. $10 shipping. I guess it comes up to be almost the same price but with oregon chain instead of chinese.....does that qualify as decent deal? In my head it seemed like it would be a better deal than that


I pmed you


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## tpence2177 (Mar 31, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> Tpence
> If you ever make it up near Cookeville I’ll show you how well my $33 chain grinder from Amazon works. Just bring your chains.



Thanks! I have a harbor freight that has been working great but can definitely use some more pointers for sure!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ColoForester (Oct 10, 2018)

At this point my 590 is in its second season of use and i'm pretty happy with it. Upgraded to a 24" Oregon power match bar and chain combo, added double dogs and removed the 90* from the muffler port (still have screen and internals intact) Ran great after some post-break-in carb tuning. IMO the limiting caps don't give you enough to properly tune to high elevation. Where I cut is close to 10,000'. The upgrades I'm doing make me think I should have got the 620PW from the get go but whatever, thats part of the fun right?

Questions for you all:

*Are any of the Husq or Jonse or Shin oversized double dogs compatible with these saws?* The standard double dogs work good but don't hold too good compared to the over sized ones.
*Anyone find a 620PW wrap handle for less than $100?
Are there any metal clutch covers available for these saws?
Longer bar studs? *Mine are a little short with the added outside dog.


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## James Miller (Oct 10, 2018)

Someone on here got a 372 full wrap to fit the 590. I dont think it was to difficult and there pretty cheap. How's it pull the 24 with just the muffler mod and what are you cutting.


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## ColoForester (Oct 10, 2018)

Actually haven't cut since the muffler mod. But it seemed to run a little better when I ran it after. Will be cutting again in a few weeks. Pulls ok, but a little slower with the 24" in dead spruce. Hoping the MM wakes it up a little. 

Was experiencing some mild surging when making long cuts. Messed with high speed a little but I think its maybe the rev limiter... Not sure how to adjust those. 

For the 372 wrap : That's what I hear, I need to see some photos. My saw at work is a Husq 365 that I set up with a wrap and oversized double dogs and a 24" bar. I just cant see how that bar would transfer over to the 590. Basically I want to make my personal saw as close to my work saw as possible.


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## James Miller (Oct 10, 2018)

The rev limiter is set at 13,500 on the 590. The only way to get rid of it is to swap to the unlimited 620 coil. There expensive


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## ColoForester (Oct 10, 2018)

James Miller said:


> The rev limiter is set at 13,500 on the 590. The only way to get rid of it is to swap to the unlimited 620 coil. There expensive



Saw that. About $80 or so. Might need to go that direction if a little more carb tuning doesn’t clear up the issue. Don’t want to just throw money at it. 


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## North by Northwest (Oct 10, 2018)

Cliffs correct muffler modding alone will not balance the performance of your saw . To optimize your engine power you must reduce back pressure and increase fuel charge . Porting and polishing will enhance engine performance , however re jetting often is required . Depending on what size hardwood your cutting either the Echo or Husky will suffice . I have both a 460 and the 590 , the Echo is a little more Pro grade in design. Both are decent saws within their limits . My 2 yr old 576 xp will eat them for breakfast but costs $300 more lol. You would be happy with either saw !


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 11, 2018)

I can't speak for the 590, but the cs620 is awesome. Filter spacer mod and muffler mod make it run like a strong 70cc saw. Didn't have to play with the jets, just retune, but the 620 has a bigger carb then the 590. About two hours of work and it's easy. Can't wait to get into the cylinder when things get slow.


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## holeycow (Oct 11, 2018)

I imagine that it runs like a decent 60cc saw...

You don’t magically get 10cc out of a muffler mod.

Sheesh.

Ps, the 590 is a very good saw for the money.


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## Marley5 (Oct 11, 2018)

holeycow said:


> I imagine that it runs like a decent 60cc saw...
> 
> You don’t magically get 10cc out of a muffler mod.
> 
> ...



Lol.....true but you'll gain at least 10 rpms. 
I really like the 590 for the money.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 11, 2018)

holeycow said:


> I imagine that it runs like a decent 60cc saw...
> 
> You don’t magically get 10cc out of a muffler mod.
> 
> ...


Muffler mod/filter spacer mod. Which the spacer has been shown to be restrictive on the flow bench. But, the cs620 is also stronger then most 60cc saws to begin with. It likes longer bars then the Husky equivalent, stock for stock. Owning one and having larger saws, I still stand by my statement and mean it.
the timeline of mods
the basic muffler mod everyone does and loves on the 590..removed inner deflector and blend. good improvement, i think it lost a tad of smoothness though.

Then after running it another week, i did the air filter spacer mod. I didnt replace it with aluminum tube like most, I cut up the plastic one leaving only the middle blade of plastic and the two locating circles.
This got another jump of power, just about on the lines of the muffler mod but also brought back smoothness and made it more broad. This by far was my favorite of the two mods.

Then i went back to the muffler. I punched another hole on the flat next to the factory outlet is, under the outer deflector. started with a 1/2" hole and after getting a response I went to 9/16". Still got a good response. I made the outer deflector more rounded by bending it open a bit in a more rounded nature. Not sure if there was am increase because I did it when doing the last hole.

thats three good jumps in power all about equal. You can get plenty of info on what people think just the first one does and go from there.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Oct 11, 2018)

Just bought another 590. Did my usual muff mod and removed limiter caps. I also cut the air filter spacer back to bare minimum. See if I notice a difference when I tune it. Never ran a 620 but that 590 with muff mod and a carb retune cuts way above its class.


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## James Miller (Oct 11, 2018)

A 590 with the muff opened is a good saw. My ported 590 won't come close to my stock 7910. I dont see a muff modded 620 running with a good 70cc saw.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 11, 2018)

James Miller said:


> A 590 with the muff opened is a good saw. My ported 590 won't come close to my stock 7910. I dont see a muff modded 620 running with a good 70cc saw.


A 7010 is 79cc, not 70. Nearly 20 more cc. So id hope not
While the 590 is a great saw and as many of you 590 owners have stated, cuts well out of its class....the 620 has a bigger carb, uncorked coil with better advance and better cylinder ports.


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## James Miller (Oct 11, 2018)

It's only a 13% gain over the 590. All the changes make the 620 a little more high strung but it's not night and day like you think.


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## holeycow (Oct 11, 2018)




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## Cliff R (Oct 12, 2018)

I have all three here, CS-590, CS-600P, and CS-620PW.

My CS-600P is an older model and uses a different P/C than the CS-590 and later 600's. The IPL shows a different coil as well, doesn't appear to be limited from what I can tell. It's a tad stronger than the CS-590 but not enough to start doing back-flips over.

The CS-620PW is a flat "home-run" for a 60cc saw. I love the full wrap handle, coil is unlimited and it's a very strong runner right out of the box. My CS-590 is pretty much my "go-to" saw these days. I set it up with a semi-chisel Oregon chain instead of full chisel. With the less aggressive cutters it's smoother and staying sharp a lot longer as we've been cutting a lot of tops left over from logging operations and many are a little dirty from being moved around some.

All three of mine are stock aside from modifying the deflector on the muffler a tad and removing the limiter caps and giving them some fuel. I'd add here than the CS-590 and CS-600P both needed fattened up quite a bit as they were WAY too lean right out of the box. Neither one would cut or idle well until fully heat soaked and even then they weren't very happy. The CS-620PW wasn't nearly as far off, just needing a very slight amount of fuel added at idle and in the cut. Pretty surprising to me as being WAY too lean is pretty much the standard with anything you buy from Echo right down to their leaf blowers and string trimmers. They seem to be a lot more concerned about pleasing the EPA than making sure customers don't "smoke" the P/C in their new saw or other power equipment........Cliff


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 12, 2018)

James Miller said:


> It's only a 13% gain over the 590. All the changes make the 620 a little more high strung but it's not night and day like you think.


Most who have played with the 590 agree that the carb ends up being the limiting factor with mods. The 620 has the bigger carb. So where does that 13% gain stock end up when the 620 doesn't suffer from carb restriction when doing mods? With so many things improved between the the 590 to 620 its really kind of pointless to compare what you think the 620 will do when played with. It's not apples to apples. But what I can tell you, having a 562xp on hand, stock for stock the echo does much better as the bar gets longer. At 20" they seem on par, but start burying a 24“ in oak and the echo pulls ahead. I don't have a longer bar ATM and now the echo is played with and the Husky isn't, so it wouldn't be fare to compare anyway, but my thoughts are that the difference between the two will widen as the bar length goes up. The 620 isn't just a good running 60cc saw to begin with, it's an extremely good running 60cc saw to start with. Maybe the best.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 12, 2018)

Cliff R said:


> I have all three here, CS-590, CS-600P, and CS-620PW.
> 
> My CS-600P is an older model and uses a different P/C than the CS-590 and later 600's. The IPL shows a different coil as well, doesn't appear to be limited from what I can tell. It's a tad stronger than the CS-590 but not enough to start doing back-flips over.
> 
> ...


I can't agree enough on pulling the carb limiters on these!


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## James Miller (Oct 12, 2018)

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> Most who have played with the 590 agree that the carb ends up being the limiting factor with mods. The 620 has the bigger carb. So where does that 13% gain stock end up when the 620 doesn't suffer from carb restriction when doing mods? With so many things improved between the the 590 to 620 its really kind of pointless to compare what you think the 620 will do when played with. It's not apples to apples. But what I can tell you, having a 562xp on hand, stock for stock the echo does much better as the bar gets longer. At 20" they seem on par, but start burying a 24“ in oak and the echo pulls ahead. I don't have a longer bar ATM and now the echo is played with and the Husky isn't, so it wouldn't be fare to compare anyway, but my thoughts are that the difference between the two will widen as the bar length goes up. The 620 isn't just a good running 60cc saw to begin with, it's an extremely good running 60cc saw to start with. Maybe the best.


The longer stroke on the echo is what gives it the extra grunt when pulling a big bar. I'd like to have the 620 coil for my ported 590 but the carb isn't worth the money as it's still not big enough to not be the choke point on the saw.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 12, 2018)

James Miller said:


> The longer stroke on the echo is what gives it the extra grunt when pulling a big bar. I'd like to have the 620 coil for my ported 590 but the carb isn't worth the money as it's still not big enough to not be the choke point on the saw.


Agreed on the stroke differences, and that was one of the reasons I went with the 620 over the Stihl and husky. I also agree that it's not worth the carb upgrade but it wasn't really my point. But more that we are comparing two saws while modding, one with a choke point and one without.


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## Cliff R (Oct 12, 2018)

Buying an unlimited coil for a CS-590 certainly wouldn't be worth the expense. The stock 590 coil has a pretty high "cut-in" point and I very seldom get anywhere near it unless I'm trimming up some small limbs or really light work.

What I like most about the CS-590 is the price, can be had for half the cost of a CS-620PW and nearly as much saw. The 15 or so percent power difference really isn't noticed with a 20" bar as I have ran both on each of mine. The CS-620PW does seem to have a slightly smoother power curve, and really loves RPM's, but grunting away in most of what we cut here I never find myself running the CS-590 and looking down at it and wishing it had more power........Cliff


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Oct 12, 2018)

What I found on a like new one I picked up in 590. They like it fat around 12.1K and pulled them red carb stops to richen up. They come to lean from the factory for sure.
This one was still running good at 140psi. Had I not pulled muffler for mod I would have not even known that it had started to score on past owner use over fall winter.
So threw in a new piston kit from Nate's shop.

Maybe the bigger 620 carb with the muffler mod would be the only thing (if carb needed replaced for some reason). But on a stock saw it is fine.


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## James Miller (Oct 12, 2018)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> What I found on a like new one I picked up in 590. They like it fat around 12.1K and pulled them red carb stops to richen up. They come to lean from the factory for sure.
> This one was still running good at 140psi. Had I not pulled muffler for mod I would have not even known that it had started to score on past owner use over fall winter.
> So threw in a new piston kit from Nate's shop.
> 
> ...


Did you check comp after the new top end by chance?


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Oct 12, 2018)

James Miller said:


> Did you check comp after the new top end by chance?



Nope it was on first tank still when new owner got it.

There is some good info on these from way back between 2 guys trying stuff. Before we knew what was going on with 620 etc. Looks at the very beginning reads. http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/echo/cs-590-wolf-review-bone-stock/


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## James Miller (Oct 12, 2018)

Thank you sir.


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## ColoForester (Oct 12, 2018)

Anyone have a link to the comment/thread for the limited cap removal. Can’t seem to find it searching. They are on the chopping block this weekend. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## James Miller (Oct 13, 2018)

I just used a drywall screw. Turn the limiter as far counterclockwise as it will go twist the screw in and pull. It should pop right out.


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## James Miller (Oct 13, 2018)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Nope it was on first tank still when new owner got it.
> 
> There is some good info on these from way back between 2 guys trying stuff. Before we knew what was going on with 620 etc. Looks at the very beginning reads. http://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/echo/cs-590-wolf-review-bone-stock/


One of my videos maid it into that thread. Figured it would get lost on YouTube after the guy watched it.


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## holeycow (Oct 13, 2018)

That must be a hurtin’ saw!

8 pages of upgrades required!


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## James Miller (Oct 13, 2018)

Still take a 590 over any 60cc Stihl maid after the 036 .


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## holeycow (Oct 13, 2018)

I wouldn’t. But it is darn good for a cheap saw.


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## holeycow (Oct 13, 2018)

My oe ms362 feels nicer in the hands, has as much or more torque, more on top (it has a “top”), and lightning throttle response. Lightning.

But it cost nearly twice as much..


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## holeycow (Oct 13, 2018)

Echo themselves are not delusional about their saw. They market it as a farm/ranch/firewood saw, where it is top of the class, imo.

That’s why I bought mine.

I dropped a couple of 24” snags about a week ago. One of them set back and trapped my Echo and then made a big crack noise. I left the scene hurriedly as the very dead tree went the wrong way. As I was moving away without my saw I said to myself “oh well, if it gets smashed it’s just my Echo”.

Thankfully nobody got hurt. Me and the saw are just fine. Completely unscathed.


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## Colt Marlington (Oct 13, 2018)

Maybe paint the air filter cover black? Yeah! that's what I'd do!


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## CRTurboGuy (Oct 6, 2020)

ColoForester said:


> So, I ordered whatever parts that were not currently on the 590 that were necessary to mount the full wrap handle.
> I will post a comprehensive list of parts needed to install the full wrap on a 590 once I receive them and confirm that they work.


Old post I know, but did you ever make this happen?

--JOsh


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## randy hines (Feb 7, 2021)

Vibes said:


> Your angry response makes KNOW you are a total tool. Your original response to a relatively new guy who is wondering about a new saw and asking for opinions makes know you are an even bigger TOOL.
> 
> The guys asking for advice on an item. You have nothing to say about the item except that he should buy something he's not asking about. Then you make a claim that you can't back up and from my experience is false. And you state it as an absolute then tell me too f#ck myself. Keep calm and also add to the thread. Opine to the point my friend or opine elsewhere


Good response


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## eye.heart.trees (Aug 22, 2021)

CRTurboGuy said:


> Old post I know, but did you ever make this happen?
> 
> --JOsh


Am also _very_ curious whether this worked, I've been watching Youtuber "tinman saws" who, this year, has a 590 he's working through (basically doing a 590-to-620 mod, or "ported and fully modded 620" transition from a 590)

I figured to echo (heh, bad pun) @CRTurboGuy 's inquiry here since I had a couple 590-questions and figure to continue here instead of starting-anew.... Figure I may as well just bullet-point, any&all help on this would be great am still going-through this thread & the '16 thread 'echo 590 tuning' but hoping to find a newer mega-thread...anyway:

- full handlebars: Smarter to fab your own (if you're capable & confident in such things, obviously) or modify from a 620's?

- Do all the common/shared parts between the 590 and 620 _tend_ to share part #'s? Perhaps more importantly, _*where would you guys recommend if someone's going to buy parts over time like a carb now, a coil later etc?*_

- anyone have OEM "tech manual" URL's for the 590, like for doing tear-downs, containing exploded-diagrams etc? I've got the basic manual which of course isn't of any real value 

- ANY url's for "mega-type" 590 threads that are a bit newer would be greatly appreciated, as would ANY youtubers who you think are credible enough and have 590 or 620 content!

Thanks a ton for anything on any of those, would be greatly appreciated!! Mine's hardly used yet, I'd been under a (seemingly) false impression "echo's come lean", so was afraid to put real load onto my new unit, because I THOUGHT the limiters were preventing sufficient CCW turning for fuel on H.....then, before tuning / using mine any further, I find multiple sentiments that the best setting for H is _*under 1 turn*_ ccw from fully buried.....I have a tach, but it never seems solid/accurate enough when doing full "under load WOT" tests, seems these cheap digi units just gyrate between 1-3 rpm values that they sense during that period, IE not accurate at all...really need to get a new, good-quality tach (and a compression gauge.....does compression *rise* over time if your saw is taken care of?)

Again thanks a ton for any insight/guidance towards resources, am stoked to have been able to get to the 4HP threshold for just $400, even the 620 - which IMO is a great deal - is far less of a deal than the 590 (it's 10% stronger at 4.4HP, for like 33% more price...) but that seems to be the market sadly, the moment saws are over the 40-60cc mark they start upping the "price per CC" or price per HP, which makes no sense to me you'd think it would be the exact opposite...But since the 590 was a solid "HP/$" powerhead, and the 620 parts can be added over time, I'm loving the idea of learning/working-on the saw over time slowly modding, ultimately a stock 590 to a custom 620


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## Cliff R (Aug 23, 2021)

A full wrap from a CS-620PW will fit the CS-590/600's without modifications.

Go to the IPL's when you get a moment and look at the parts used on the CS-620 vs the CS-590. The engine, for example has different part numbers for the piston, crank, cylinder, muffler, carb, coil, etc.

You will also find that early CS-600's used different P/C's than the later 600's. It appears that at some point the 590's/600's share the same P/C where earlier 600's used different parts.

The CS-590 uses a different coil than the CS-620 and it is limited. Not really a big deal as the cut-in point is high enough you woln't really notice it.

I own all three, CS-590, CS-600 and a CS-620PW. My 600 is an early model with an unlimited coil and different P/C than later versions. I did some timed cutting with it and it was just a tad stronger than my Husqvarna 262XP which really surprised me at that time. My CS-620PW is a later X-series version. All of mine are stock aside from removing limiter caps, modifying the deflector on the muffler and sealing up the air filter to the carb a little better than the factory did.

I see no need to modify a CS-590 in any way otherwise as they have good power for the CC's and run close enough to a CS-620 anyhow. I have a LOT of time on my CS-590 at this point. I use it a lot in larger logs to cross-cut the pieces to make them easier to handle. All of the cross-cutting done below in the huge Maple and Beech tree in the pics was done with the CS-590. It never grumbled once and I never found myself wanting more power from it............Cliff


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## fordf150 (Aug 23, 2021)

only real differences between the 590 and 620 are....carb(620 is bigger venturi), coil(620 is unlimited), and piston/cylinder(different port timing). there are other differences but they are mainly cosmetic

everything from a 590 will bolt on a 620 and vice versa. 

IMHO the only part of a 620 that is worth putting on a 590 is the clutch drum....590 is a spur($55) and 620 is rim($55). 

carb and coil will give a very slight boost in power but at $80 each its not worth it. however if your 590 is blown up then the 620 cylinder becomes the only way to go since it is only like $5 more


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## Kenskip1 (Aug 23, 2021)




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## Ronie (Aug 23, 2021)

I'm with Ford150, the carb would be a waist of money and you can tune it in the wood with the limited coil. If I was just doing simple mods I'd, pull the limiters, replace the fixed main jet with one from a 199 or just close the hole on the top of the jet with some JB Weld so that it's fully adjustable, do a muffler mod and do a base gasket delete if the squish will allow it.


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## Cliff R (Aug 24, 2021)

NEVER for any reason use JB Weld in a situation where you have gasoline involved.

The CS-590 really does't need any help to be a great saw with plenty of power. The best mod mentioned is to upgrade the clutch for rim sprockets. If you are trying to make a CS-620 out of it just bypass it in the first place and buy a CS-620. They can still be had for around $550 or so NIB with free shipping. CS-590's have creeped up to around $400 so saving $150 or so then buying a $55 clutch, real bar (the stock one is cheaper/laminated), carburetor, unlimited coil, etc you are well past the cost of the CS-620 for sure.

I've not tuned one yet where the coil upgrade would help anyplace as the "cut-in" point is far enough above the full load cutting RPM it's never noticed. I've also never ran into one yet that was rich and needed leaned up. Without exception every single one that's came thru the shop here has been lean enough to just about smoke the P/C if we didn't fatten them up some.......FWIW.......


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## Ronie (Aug 24, 2021)

Cliff R said:


> NEVER for any reason use JB Weld in a situation where you have gasoline involved.


If you can use it to raise the intake floor why wouldn't it work for closing the top hole in the main jet?

My 600p


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## Cliff R (Aug 24, 2021)

It is not fuel compatible. 100 percent of the carburetors I get in to rebuild where it has been used to seal up bottom plugs fail a pressure test. It will NOT stay attached, gets "soft" in contact with fuel and fuel leaks right past it......


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## Ronie (Aug 24, 2021)

Cliff R said:


> It is not fuel compatible. 100 percent of the carburetors I get in to rebuild where it has been used to seal up bottom plugs fail a pressure test. It will NOT stay attached, gets "soft" in contact with fuel and fuel leaks right past it......


I didn't know that, thanks. I just did that until my jet came in but have been lazy and haven't changed it out yet.


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## Cliff R (Aug 24, 2021)

A lot of folks don't realize but it sure steers a lot of work in my direction so I'm glad they keep purchasing that product for those types of repairs!.....


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## eye.heart.trees (Sep 6, 2021)

Cliff R said:


> NEVER for any reason use JB Weld in a situation where you have gasoline involved.
> 
> The CS-590 really does't need any help to be a great saw with plenty of power. The best mod mentioned is to upgrade the clutch for rim sprockets. If you are trying to make a CS-620 out of it just bypass it in the first place and buy a CS-620. They can still be had for around $550 or so NIB with free shipping. CS-590's have creeped up to around $400 so saving $150 or so then buying a $55 clutch, real bar (the stock one is cheaper/laminated), carburetor, unlimited coil, etc you are well past the cost of the CS-620 for sure.
> 
> I've not tuned one yet where the coil upgrade would help anyplace as the "cut-in" point is far enough above the full load cutting RPM it's never noticed. I've also never ran into one yet that was rich and needed leaned up. Without exception every single one that's came thru the shop here has been lean enough to just about smoke the P/C if we didn't fatten them up some.......FWIW.......


There is pretty unanimous sentiment the 590's are shipped _rich_ not lean...from plenty of people on *********, from tinman on youtube, not only that they're generally set a bit fat but also that _*you cannot over-lean even if you tried*_, even if you seated the H screw there is a bypass valve that lets fuel in (according to aforementioned people, my new 590 is barely on tank #3 and only read 91-92psi so I'm still just putting gas through it and doing occasional "cut times" benchmarking....its compression was so low it was notably easier to pull than my 355t..)

Curious your thoughts, do you live somewhere high altitude or otherwise anomalous by chance?


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## wisme.jonat (Nov 6, 2021)

tpence2177 said:


> He basically just makes a plate to bolt from the original bolt hole to the 372 full wrap from what I remember. I have a 372 half wrap from hutzl that I won on eBay for $8 and then I bent/ trimmed to fit mine mine. Kinda wanting a full wrap now though lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Is there pictures of this… the 372
Doesn’t exactly fit…
Any help that would be awesome!


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## Cliff R (Nov 7, 2021)

"Curious your thoughts, do you live somewhere high altitude or otherwise anomalous by chance?"

The only Echo saws that I've seen that aren't lean right out of the box have been the CS-620P/PW's. They are much closer to a good tune than most others but I still remove the limiter caps before running them so I can fine tune if/as needed. 

I don't really pay much attention to what others are doing with these saws. When we purchase one or one comes in here to the shop it gets a minor muffler mod (opening up the deflector) and limiter caps removed before we run it. I top them off with fresh fuel/oil mix and off to the woodpile to make some cuts. The "L" screw is fine tuned first, after I get some heat in the saw by letting it run a few minutes. Most Echo saws are lean there as well and don't want to take the throttle well until they are well heat-soaked. So I usually have to come back and re-address the "L" speed screws after we've made a few cuts with it. 

Many Echo saws will have rev-limited or timing-retard coils which can make them appear overly rich on the "H" speed screw and a bit difficult to tune at the same time. This may be why many folks with the CS-590 think they are rich right out of the box. I add fuel with the "H" speed screw until I know for sure we're "four stroking" from a rich setting vs hitting the rev-limiting feature in the coil. At that point I start leaning them up and making cuts until the tune is correct. 

I personally own a CS-590, CS-600P (early model), and a CS-620PW "X" series. They are all really good saws, very well designed and easy to work on. Power is good for the CC's and not really a lot of difference between them. They are best suited for a 20" bar but pull the larger 24 and 27's with decent authority. I've even ran a skip-tooth 30" on the 600P a few times and it actually does pretty good with it in bigger wood.

The CS-590 is for sure quite a bargain in a 60cc saw and I've been trying to wear mine out or break it and it just keeps on getting it done. They laminated bar they show up with isn't all that great, mine wore out pretty quickly so I switched it over to a Husky bar 20" bar with 72 drive links which I have plenty of around here. The pics below shows a couple of larger trees we got into a few years back and ALL of it was cross-cut with the CS-590 to make the pieces smaller and more manageable to the splitter. It never grumbled once and they refuse to clog up cross-cutting, another really nice feature of that design........Cliff


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## Brufab (Dec 7, 2022)

James Miller said:


> The longer stroke on the echo is what gives it the extra grunt when pulling a big bar. I'd like to have the 620 coil for my ported 590 but the carb isn't worth the money as it's still not big enough to not be the choke point on the saw.


Did you put a full wrap on your echo, FS said he ran it or saw it run and it was a beast. Was there any issues in removing the bar and chain with the full wrap? The stock plastic handle is so flimsy, Thanks!


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## Brufab (Dec 8, 2022)




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