# Yarding Down the Hill With a Madill (rhymes,eh?)



## slowp (Aug 14, 2008)

The boys got their yarder rigged up faster than planned so started downhilling this morning. I had to hike up the 3 ibuprofen hill and "approve" trees to cut for tailblocks. The hooktender has not tried to kill me yet, but is losing points.
Ever since he found out I worked with his mother, he has been pointing out how old I am.  Anyway, it was bad lighting this morning so I had to brighten up these pictures. I'm hunkered next to the yarder and if something had gone wrong, I'd be ducking behind it or the shovel. Here's how it looks bringing a log down.





















Here's what the landing looks like.


----------



## slowp (Aug 14, 2008)

*Meanwhile, up at the top*

Here's what the rigging configuration is at the cornerblock. I had to walk along the lines up here --the hooktender had the yarder engineer stop but it still is creepy. 




These are what are called Twisters. From what I've been told, they aren't hard to twist, but can cause quite a bit of excitement when they are being untwisted. One guy told me the secret is to saw the stump through just enough so it will bend back a bit and loosen the wire. 





Twisters are necessary because of the pumice soils in this area. Pumice doesn't hold tree roots very well. 

Here's a picture I took while waiting for the hooktender. He was getting this tree ready for the next setting. 





I missed the opportunity to get a picture of a flying 660 and flying rootwad, but that was at a road building site.


----------



## RDT (Aug 14, 2008)

Great pics


----------



## Rookie1 (Aug 14, 2008)

great looking pics.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Aug 14, 2008)

Always enjoy your pics slow-p keep em coming


----------



## 2dogs (Aug 14, 2008)

Cedarkerf said:


> Always enjoy your pics slow-p keep em coming



Yep! You do have a gift with the camera. More please.


----------



## Ed*L (Aug 15, 2008)

Great pics! Thanks again.

Ed


----------



## slowp (Aug 21, 2008)

It has been raining pretty good. I saw the tracks of a chained up log truck so knew it would be bad. I turned in the hubs, put it in 4 wheel drive and pushed the pedal to the floor and barely made it up to the parking space. 
I chugged (on foot) to the top of the unit. It doesn't feel as hard of a hike as it used to. I took some pictures while waiting for the hooktender to finish.
Here he is feeding the haywire down to his hooktender trainee/helper or as the crew calls it, pimp. We had an "Axemen" moment. There was a small branch tangled in the line and he asked me to go pull it down and grab the branch. Right when I got hold of the line, the guy below gave a good pull and I went up in the air! No gloves so I let go fast. I'm no lightweight either so that gives you an idea of the weight of the line. The hooktender radioed down for the landing guys to yell at the pulling guy. Then it took both of us to pull the line back enough so I could reach the branch.









Then we went on choosing trees to cut for anchors. Here's what ground with good, natural lift (deflection) looks like.




Then back down the hill. The yarder engineer had a platform made. He was worried, and it was legitimate, about the yarder sliding off the pummy edge of the road.






The only bad thing, everyone had switched to the rainy season rubber boots and walking down the steep hill, socks creep up to the toes.


----------



## 2dogs (Aug 21, 2008)

Rain? That only happens in January and March. It was about 90o here today.


----------



## slowp (Aug 21, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Rain? That only happens in January and March. It was about 90o here today.



I prefer the rain to 90's! 50s are best for work...60s to 70s for play.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Aug 21, 2008)

Raining cats dogs elk deer bear racoons past 3 days 60's for temps. Feels like October. Stay well Patty.


----------



## slowp (Aug 21, 2008)

Cedarkerf said:


> Raining cats dogs elk deer bear racoons past 3 days 60's for temps. Feels like October. Stay well Patty.



You too. I am thinking that The Curse of the Hooktenders might be over. Only a couple more weeks with the deadliest for me, yet the most productive crew. They are the ones featured in this thread.


----------



## Bushler (Aug 22, 2008)

Cool pics, as usual. A correction in your terminolgy...call it a 'bulkhead' instead of a 'platform' and you'll get some cred from your peers.

That madill on the tank carrier reminds me of one when I short termed for Menasha corp. They tipped it over the first time they raised it...and I laughed.

The Supe thought it was inappropriate of me to laugh...which made me laugh harder.

I miss those days when you could find rigging jobs at any bar.


----------



## slowp (Aug 22, 2008)

Here are photos of the disturbance that I took for showing the 'ologists who envision trenches and doom from any cable logging. 
This shows the width of the disturbance near the bottom. All the volume from this setting went over the ground here.




This is at the top where only a few logs were yarded down.





They are lucky to get 3 loads a day. Production is usually cut in half when comparing downhill to uphill. I call it an HWF--High Whine Factor.


----------



## Bushler (Aug 22, 2008)

Clear cut and use a slack line for the downhill. Washington Interlock, with a haul back speed approx. 70 mph. We'll get 40 loads a day...send trucks.


----------



## slowp (Aug 23, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Clear cut and use a slack line for the downhill. Washington Interlock, with a haul back speed approx. 70 mph. We'll get 40 loads a day...send trucks.



That was when I worked here before. Except high lead was used, and there were more mills in the vicinity. Million dollar payments for stumpage, each month, and the loggers made way more money than I did. 

But, it'll all be ok. I think.


----------



## Bushler (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't think its going to be 'o.k.' until people realize that timber is a crop like any other crop and needs to be managed as such.


----------



## forestryworks (Aug 23, 2008)

Bushler said:


> I don't think its going to be 'o.k.' until people realize that timber is a crop like any other crop and needs to be managed as such.



amen


----------



## slowp (Aug 26, 2008)

*Bad lift...bad bad lift.*

I hiked up the hill to check out the logging. Heard a saw running which means I had to go over to see what was being cut. On this corridor, it flattens out near the top, and there wasn't much in the form of nice trees to rig to. So, not much lift could be had. Inefficient speech was rampant. Notice how low the carriage is. 





Then, a log went the wrong way, and an unoriginal word was shouted, and for good reason. The log went on one side of a leave tree and was stuck between it and another. The carriage and lines were on the other side. 





After resetting choker and some more inefficient speech, the log came out of the trees, spun around uphill, and was sent down the corridor. 




Bad lift=inefficient speech and more scarring of leave trees. 
Tomorrow: A hike through the woods in search of 7 helicopter cutters.:greenchainsaw:
I feel like SnowWhite!


----------



## forestryworks (Aug 26, 2008)

slowp, can i be your assistant? i'll carry your pack :greenchainsaw:


----------



## Bushler (Aug 27, 2008)

Clear cut and shovel log the whole entire unit. Splat. Call for trucks.

Keep the pics comming. Nice shots.


----------



## slowp (Aug 27, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Clear cut and shovel log the whole entire unit. Splat. Call for trucks.
> 
> Keep the pics comming. Nice shots.



Thankyou. Low stumps in addition to the clear cut and it would roll down to the road. We like the leave areas along the little drainages. Those make for nice walking in and out. The trucks were not making it up to the landing on their own. Too much rain on a steep grade.


----------



## RPM (Aug 27, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Clear cut and shovel log the whole entire unit. Splat. Call for trucks.
> 
> Keep the pics comming. Nice shots.



+1...Way too nice a stand just to pick at. I know its not your policy slowp. Whats the age of the stand and volume - looks like second growth. Whats the % removal. Tough way to make a buck. Like Bushler said.....clear cut and go!:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Cedarkerf (Aug 27, 2008)

Bean good and wet here IFPLs are all down to level I around here. Who would figure in August!


----------



## 056 kid (Aug 28, 2008)

Slope, is that an Eagle carrige? 
If so i have hade experiences with them here on the crappy coast. She was an old asses beat up bugger. Jumpers+ eather to get her going 9n the morning. Well my co-workers used eather. the few times i got the 6-71 and the eagle running i used no eather and they popped just fine!
But usually i was all ready sweating my ass off trompeling that nasty hard wood brush pulling some sky line...

Ya i fell it and choked it, me and my Chicano friend Quan HAHA. Queee!?!


----------



## Burvol (Aug 28, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Clear cut and shovel log the whole entire unit. Splat. Call for trucks.
> 
> Keep the pics comming. Nice shots.



It is a little hard to look at these photos (not you Slowp, the pics are great quality)....really nice timber left everywhere that is hell for the loggers. Three loads a day??????? That looks about right to what they are doing. The stand is too damn thick in my opinion to send a crew in. They should take more volume or just leave the stuff alone, but if they want to jack with it... no wonder they want to scream!!! That's a tight fit with all the rigging, going down hill, trying not to scar trees. Then you definetly end up looking down a hallway when it's done (the cooridors)!!!! Some times I'll ask the hook or the logging boss to renig on settings for cutting...But the state hates to fly over a wagon wheel that REALLY stands out when you just cut corridors!!! I can't Imagine what the Forest Service wants these days  Please tell me you'll at least cream the hallways. The guys laying out my pieces always do, and I mark the rest with the saw. It's crazy how much faith the DNR puts into buncher operators and hand fallers compared to what the Forest Service does. That stand just looks a touch too thick to me, especially in your neck of the woods. That stand is probably only 60-75 years old.


----------



## slowp (Aug 28, 2008)

It is either thin or no logging. They did very well on the right of way, and the uphill. The logging and mill take the downhill into consideration with their bids.
Yup, it is not good, but you/I have to work with what we get. Believe it or not, the cutters tell me they like doing thinnings because it takes more thinking and skill. The guys who cut this were excellent cutters and didn't get much hung up or scarred--really good crew.  They just chewed through it. The hand falling looks better than the processor work.

Let me see, I think the stand is around 80 years or more in age. It is a natural stand, was not planted but had a fire rip through at some time. The mill likes the wood because it is slower growing and has tighter rings than most second growth. This was a pretty heavy cut compared to some of the more recent thinnings. 

Corridors always look wider after they are cut. I do the down hill ones at about 14 feet wide. Then after the cut trees are taken out that are spaced off the leave trees that I marked, the corridors look wider. This being a natural stand, there were some openings already there too. To most people, it won't look logged as they drive by. 

The carriage is either an Eagle or an Acme. I thought the latter. It is very reliable. This company is not a gyppo outfit. They have other yarders and work from here to the coast. They have some excellent people working for them and are able to keep them on. I was amazed that they just went ahead and logged this downhill section--to me it wasn't safe enough looking with not much of a runout at the bottom. I was thinking we'd be throwing it out.

I'm thinking that in the short future, (can't think long when politics are involved) there won't be anymore downhill. It'll go for helicopter. The last sale sold here was that way, I didn't think it would sell, and one bidder got it.
The govt. makes no extra money with helicopter sales due to the low bids because of high logging costs. The helicopter company brings in their own people. 

Well, that's the bigger picture. Nope, I don't like downhilling either but it is what we have to work with.


----------



## Bushler (Aug 28, 2008)

What really irks me is the regs. that restrict good logging/silvaculture practice adds to our carbon foot print, escalates the cost of operation, burns more fuel, adds increased risk of personnel injury, and doesn't work.

Same with commercial fishing regs. Run from Oregon down to NorCal, fish a week, then run 400 miles north to fish for a week...

Helicopter logging is the most expensive waste of timber imaginable. Ask them what their cost/bushel is sometime. Last I remember a crane cost about $3K/hour to fly.

In the sixties we learned how to log effectively with big machines, and those units we logged were replanted and have had their first commerial thinning. Beautiful reprod.

The engineered roads we built that cost so much were torn up. Fire burns rampant in the roadless areas. And smoke from forest fires is the leading cause of carbon dioxide, (global warming).

Its absurd, and there's no excuse for it. Self serving agenda driven knott heads are the bane of our existence.

And with that happy thought, I'm off to whack some nice hemlocks...


----------



## slowp (Aug 28, 2008)

Perhaps ripping my rainpants today was karma. I think I'll use the pink duck tape to repair them.


----------



## Burvol (Aug 29, 2008)

slowp said:


> It is either thin or no logging. They did very well on the right of way, and the uphill. The logging and mill take the downhill into consideration with their bids.
> Yup, it is not good, but you/I have to work with what we get. Believe it or not, the cutters tell me they like doing thinnings because it takes more thinking and skill. The guys who cut this were excellent cutters and didn't get much hung up or scarred--really good crew.  They just chewed through it. The hand falling looks better than the processor work.
> 
> Let me see, I think the stand is around 80 years or more in age. It is a natural stand, was not planted but had a fire rip through at some time. The mill likes the wood because it is slower growing and has tighter rings than most second growth. This was a pretty heavy cut compared to some of the more recent thinnings.
> ...



You know Slowp, I agree with you, I just thought that stand was a little thick, especially after hearing the three loads a day bit, but that is what is there to work with. I like to cut partials, I really do. Like you said, it takes skill to lay out timber in tight quarters like that (especially tree lengths coming out). I'm not taking it as a dive at me personally, but I have heard that crap before, and had show the woods boss to re-neg his wording...I was told that I was probably just a clear "cutter" when I first started doing crowns for the DNR, before I had even fired up my saw. He had no idea that I cut plenty of partials, and would like to be considered a "faller", not a cutter ( I really don't care, just what a few guys I know joke about). His "cutters" all got canned, and that piece sat there for months. We came in and did a great job, and he even was nice to give us some props (he's kinda quiet like that). The riggin' crew spent more time bucking logs across corridors than they did on the hook before we got there. So I guess I'm trying to say is, I know the gig your on fairly well, just at the state level, not federal. There is a lot to selective crown work on highlead, but then you have to look at it from Bushler and my Dad's generation and just kind of deal with it. I really see their point. You live in some of the best timber CROP ground in the world. For Doug Fir, it's probably top 3 anyway.


----------



## slowp (Aug 29, 2008)

Actually, I am of that generation also. It is frustrating on this end. I pointed out to the guy I worked with yesterday that only one culvert would have been needed, then the helicopter ground could have been at least downhill yarded or better if roads were put in. He mumbled about being glad he was retiring in a couple of years cuz stuff like that was driving him crazy. The other helicopter units are actually on good flat skidder ground but that too would require :bang:   replacing 2 or 3 culverts on a rocked road. Might kill some fish while installing the pipes! It is a mad and embarrassing (on this end) world in the woods.


----------



## Bushler (Aug 29, 2008)

SlowP, my anger over the Fed mismangament of our fisheries and timberlands is not directed toward you personally. In fact, the opposite. From your posts I have a good idea that you would prefer to do it right if given the chance.

Helicopter logging skidder ground. Now that has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard regarding logging practive.

Lets thin some 15 year old reprod with a D-9. Or should we use a copter for that too?

Sort of related, but what is the 'official' definition of old growth? I see it used in many contexts. Does it relate to age, size, ???

I think the GreenPeople vary its usage, (term, old grwth) to fit their particular agenda.

For example, they (GreenPeople) say that there's very little old growth left in the Pac Northwest. And they're right, most of the true old growth burnt years ago, leaving only small pockets of true old growth.

Other times, they call a bastard growth, old growth.

Other times, they call a big second growth, old growth.


----------



## Burvol (Aug 29, 2008)

Bushler said:


> SlowP, my anger over the Fed mismangament of our fisheries and timberlands is not directed toward you personally. In fact, the opposite. From your posts I have a good idea that you would prefer to do it right if given the chance.
> 
> Helicopter logging skidder ground. Now that has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard regarding logging practive.
> 
> ...



Ya, I cut some darn nice bastard growth two weeks ago, wish I could have got some pics. Big, heavy bark and the red circle pretty much gone. Four footers. Old growth to many.


----------



## slowp (Aug 29, 2008)

I don't know what is considered Old Growth anymore. It kept getting younger and then smaller and the latest fad is to declare a diameter cap. 20 inches is the figure thrown around here as a limit. That hasn't been done yet. It'll drive you berserk to think about it too much! Now that is only in this area, other forests seem to be able to put out more volume and do it quicker. And some not at all.


----------



## RPM (Aug 29, 2008)

True old growth to me is mostly on the coast where a tree might be 450 - 1000 years old......thats old growth. The fire return cycle around my area is approx 150-225 years (stand replacing event), more in the wet belt cedar areas. Get into the Lodgepole pine areas up in the Chilcolton (Williams Lake - Quesnel) and old growth is probably around 150 years or less.

Others would say old growth is pre-white man.....


----------



## Bushler (Aug 30, 2008)

RPM, that's what I thought to. As for doug. fir it would be somehwere around 450 years +, with bastard growth in the 250-450 year bracket, and second growth less than 250 years.

But what amuses me is that when speaking of inventory, the GreenPeople use one definition, and when they want to regulate cutting they use another.

GreenPeople wouldn't try to deceive people would they?


----------



## Burvol (Aug 30, 2008)

The DNR greenies wasted a lot of wood east of where I'm working this year. They cut all the really nice, growing well 18- 28" timber that has three long logs in it, and left the 28-42" trees that have four longs and around 3000+ plus feet in them. Now, they are beautiful trees to leave and grow, but they all seem to blow over in all the areas I have seen this done. You end up with a clearcut that cannot be salvaged, because they plant around them and use that as the reason for not salvaging it, when they could have done the work prior. IRRITATING!!! That's all of the taxpayer's logs laying there to rot. I found the spot during morel season where they had just planted, and the timber had been on the ground since December, not long at all. In fact, all the needles were green on the blowdown. I found a really nice american made 4 lbs. Axe head (that I'm using this year) from a spot in a road that a big planting crew tried to buck a log out to get by with trucks. Imagine a 50 inch Doug fir that is 200 feet tall and is blown up a fairly steep hill. Now, above the rootwad, there is a road 80 feet up, where the tree goes across it is still around 32" in diameter or more. Try bucking that wound up son of a ##### with what ever they had and see if you don't get hurt. The top of that log was probably 25 feet over from where it seperated at the buck, with a major piece of wood ripped out. I laughed when I saw it, and found that axe head. I wonder what the heck happened, I didn't see any evidence of a big splatter.


----------



## Bushler (Aug 30, 2008)

Burvol, that's what I'm talking about! Perfect example of stupid silva culture. Basically its dumb to log through reprod. Why would they plant (at tax payers expense) in a partial cut????(just to impede future harvest?)

I'm also disturbed by the 20" old growth designation...I'm cutting 35 year old natural third growth that's bigger than that...I guess that makes me older than an old growth?


----------



## Burvol (Aug 30, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Burvol, that's what I'm talking about! Perfect example of stupid silva culture. Basically its dumb to log through reprod. Why would they plant (at tax payers expense) in a partial cut????(just to impede future harvest?)
> 
> I'm also disturbed by the 20" old growth designation...I'm cutting 35 year old natural third growth that's bigger than that...I guess that makes me older than an old growth?



I heard that now the state calls anything that is in the lead with their crown over the other timber, old growth. I call it horse ####.


----------



## slowp (Sep 2, 2008)

Back to yarding. Here's pictures from today's hike up the hill. This hooktender actually has a wedge in his pocket, but the bad news is the bar is bent a bit on the saw. Notice he is looking up. The crew makes comments about the white hat. I don't.
















Shortly after, all work except for loading trucks, came to a halt. The yarder broke down while being moved. A shop truck had to be called.


----------



## slowp (Sep 5, 2008)

They finished up today. I missed the steep corridor due to having to calculate volumes for logs all day yesterday--:censored: office work. One of the crew, and I think it was the shovel operator, tried to recreate the Axemen thing of swinging on a guyline, he hopped off the cutbank, tripped, and got drug a bit on his belly. Took him a few seconds to get up and meanwhile, everyone was laughing pretty hard. I'll see them back next summer.


----------



## wvlogger (Feb 5, 2009)

look like much more danger than regular up hill yarding. why do they do down hill yarding is there no were on top of the mountain to cut a landing? and it is killing me who do you work for?


----------



## slowp (Feb 6, 2009)

wvlogger said:


> look like much more danger than regular up hill yarding. why do they do down hill yarding is there no were on top of the mountain to cut a landing? and it is killing me who do you work for?



The choices right now are downhill, helicopter, or stay out. No road building allowed to get a yarder up to the top. 

I am a forester and work for you....


----------



## slowp (Feb 6, 2009)

wvlogger said:


> look like much more danger than regular up hill yarding. why do they do down hill yarding is there no were on top of the mountain to cut a landing? and it is killing me who do you work for?



The choices right now for steep ground, are downhill, helicopter, or stay out. No road building allowed to get a yarder up to the top. 

I am a forester and work for you....


----------



## wilbilt (Feb 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> I am a forester and work for you....



I am recommending you for a raise. 

Thanks for your posts. I find them very informative and enjoyable.


----------



## slowp (Feb 6, 2009)

wilbilt said:


> I am recommending you for a raise.
> 
> Thanks for your posts. I find them very informative and enjoyable.



We got a 3% raise but then the health insurance co-payment went up 13% so it all works out. I'm not whining. Not now. I usually like my job when there's lots going on. I pester loggers with questions and that's how I learn.
They'll usually explain things, sometimes with eyes rolling. Then pester me with questions, like (about Spotted Owl restrictions) "How come THEY get to log during March-July and WE can't? THEY are just on the other side of the road." Owl circles on maps are very hard to explain.


----------



## hutch3912 (Feb 6, 2009)

Great Thread. Great pics.


----------

