# Random Ramblings, Cutting Logs



## Burvol (Oct 11, 2009)

I wanted to just re-hash some of the topics we have discussed in production falling, and what my partner (he's on a buncher) and I were discussing last week. 

1. Stay safe and productive. If your dead or mangled, your no good to your outfit. Work hard. Guys that barley get by, get just that. 

2. Not all trees are the same. Some need a little more tweeking on the stump or whatever to lay out right. If your stump looks a little goofy cause of something you did to swing a tree or roll it off, don't worry. You can't sell the stumps, but pretty stumps do show competency. 

3. I don't give a #### how much wood you put on the ground if it's broke. Can't sell chunks, lol.

4. Like number 3, the name of the game is selling the wood, not just dropping it. Make it pretty, ( ie, correct trim, flush & square, good knots flushed) and make it so the loggers can get it out. 

5. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Everyone has an opinion of cutting timber. We all know what the bottom line is. Good logs sell at the market just like cattle or hogs. Add volume to that, and your making a little money. Guys that talk a mean game, wear a saw patch to the grocery store, tell war stories at the bar and just slash and dash are pathetic.


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## slowp (Oct 11, 2009)

And don't carry a pink wedge when wearing orange chaps, an orange hardhat and packing an orange saw. Unless, you are carrying it to increase awareness of breast cancer. Which was the reason given when I pointed out this faux pas to a faller.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 11, 2009)




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## John Ellison (Oct 11, 2009)

Right on Burvol, I never claimed to be the fastest busheler, but always made the best logs I could. 
Have heard it said more than once that the best bushelers are just an inch away from getting fired. (Some people actually believed this) Meaing that they are taking too many shortcuts to up production. 
There are shortcuts and then there are shortcuts.
If the rigging crew, skidder op. or? are continually cussing it does not matter how much you can produce in a day, it is still bad.
I worked at a camp where the top scale was always turned in by the same guy. And he always made sure everyone knew it.
When he quit I finished up his strip. Two cut up but still standing dead snags. Nothing but Russian couplings in most all of the windfall. I dont know how he was allowed to work there as long as he did. Niether here nor there but AFAIK he is still in prison for murder.
Your right, the stumps usually tell the tale. But you have to see them in general. Sometimes you just have to do what you gotta do to get it on the ground and the stump isnt going to look just right. The overall end results are what counts.


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## John Ellison (Oct 11, 2009)

slowp said:


> And don't carry a pink wedge when wearing orange chaps, an orange hardhat and packing an orange saw. Unless, you are carrying it to increase awareness of breast cancer. Which was the reason given when I pointed out this faux pas to a faller.



HaHa, some people just dont"get it".


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## captainsteep (Oct 11, 2009)

*my words said perfect*

once had a cutter that way,show up cut and leave,not even think on how the hell am i going to get that mess picked up,then ##### because its taking to long to get it out.So i told him get down there and hook it up,Well i think he learned something, Bet he cuts different today dam good cutter still,wish i still had him.


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## bullbuck (Oct 11, 2009)

well said burvol,a faller that takes pride in his work and also consideration for the method used to remove the wood is rare in these parts,at the company i used to work for there were 5 cutters but only one faller,skidding his strip was the only breath of fresh air on that job,the rest of the stuff was all sidehill hack and run jazz,just plain hard on everyone not to mention the woods,but when some guys learn a certain way,they will never change.logging is hard but the way some guys do it makes it even harder,for no reason,probably the reason i no longer work there


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## redprospector (Oct 11, 2009)

One thing I know for sure is that running a small skidder made a lot better faller out of me. 

Andy


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## GASoline71 (Oct 11, 2009)

Never fill the saw boss' lunchbox with bar oil... 

...don't ask me why... 

Gary


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## bullbuck (Oct 11, 2009)

redprospector said:


> One thing I know for sure is that running a small skidder made a lot better faller out of me.
> 
> Andy



it has a way of doing that,i bet your production went up too


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## 056 kid (Oct 11, 2009)

being able to get the timber out is half the fun!

Every time my boss hired some new help to try, I would have to deal with the that problem, guys are so gung ho to put the timber on the ground they forget what the bigger picture is then you have 5 tree lengths of lapped up butts, trees get jackstrawed, trees get left, ground becomes un traverseable via skidder. And the next thing you know, the forester is telling you to go back over there and do that, them come over here and get this.

What a pita!!

My bosses brother has been cutting all his life, taught me to walk the whole sale to get a good idea on how things need to be done.

I would often contradict my boss on where to start & where the first road needed to be, but he would end up agreeing once his older brother piped in. he is always trying to cut corners....


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## Gologit (Oct 11, 2009)

Burvol said:


> 5. Guys that talk a mean game, wear a saw patch to the grocery store, tell war stories at the bar and just slash and dash are pathetic.



Yup. But there's sure a lot of them out there. The only good thing to come out of the current slow down is that, usually, only the best fallers can find steady work. I wish we could have the kind of falling, save out, and production all the time that we're seeing right now.

And Red's right about running a skidder making you a better faller. If some of the slash-and-dashers had to try to untangle some of their own messes they just might get a clue. Any fool can put wood on the ground but when the skidding crew volunteers to work your strip first, you know you've laid 'em out right.


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## redprospector (Oct 11, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> it has a way of doing that,i bet your production went up too



Bottom line production went up, but I don't put as many on the ground in a day's time. It takes a little more time to put them where they need to go.

When I first started falling for the mill one of the bosses said I was his best directional faller...........Then he added; Whatever direction it's leaning, is the direction it's fallin'. 

The guy's that have worked for me say that I'm anal about putting trees where they need to go, but I don't like building fence if I don't have to, and the bottom line is what counts anyway.

Andy


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## redprospector (Oct 11, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Yup. But there's sure a lot of them out there. The only good thing to come out of the current slow down is that, usually, only the best fallers can find steady work. I wish we could have the kind of falling, save out, and production all the time that we're seeing right now.
> 
> And Red's right about running a skidder making you a better faller. If some of the slash-and-dashers had to try to untangle some of their own messes they just might get a clue. Any fool can put wood on the ground but when the skidding crew volunteers to work your strip first, you know you've laid 'em out right.



The sad part is that I recognise that I was a "slash-and-dasher" when I first started out. Some old timers taught me a lot of things, but I just never gave a rat's :censored: about laying them out right if it cost me in tree count, untill my second day on a skidder.
I'm a firm believer that a 7" grinder will make a better welder out of a man, and a skidder will make a better faller out of a man.

Andy


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## Jacob J. (Oct 11, 2009)

J- That's about the best post on log cutting on this site ever. If I were running a crew of log cutters, I'd much rather have a guy who was a bit slower but took great pride in leaving clean strips. I wasn't ever the fastest, and I had no ambitions to be the fastest. It was enough for me to get a saw and a set of jacks out on the unit and actually get wood on the ground. There was always going to be someone faster, more aggressive, or more thick-headed working the next strip over.

One of the 'fastest' guys I ever worked with ended up losing an eye because he was falling three in a set together and didn't fully assess the situation. The top broke out of one and blew some limbs back when it landed and a broken piece of limb took his eye out. He's still cutting now and is a lot more careful.


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## Jacob J. (Oct 11, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Yup. But there's sure a lot of them out there. The only good thing to come out of the current slow down is that, usually, only the best fallers can find steady work. I wish we could have the kind of falling, save out, and production all the time that we're seeing right now.
> 
> And Red's right about running a skidder making you a better faller. If some of the slash-and-dashers had to try to untangle some of their own messes they just might get a clue. Any fool can put wood on the ground but when the skidding crew volunteers to work your strip first, you know you've laid 'em out right.



I don't know about the economic downturn filtering out good cutters here. I see some guys I know that are real meatheads (crackheads in some cases) still working and some other guys I know that are old timers and among the best of the best are struggling to get work. It seems in my area, the depressed economy is favoring slash-and-dash type cutters who are cheaper.


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## Gologit (Oct 11, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> I don't know about the economic downturn filtering out good cutters here. I see some guys I know that are real meatheads (crackheads in some cases) still working and some other guys I know that are old timers and among the best of the best are struggling to get work. It seems in my area, the depressed economy is favoring slash-and-dash type cutters who are cheaper.



We get the cheapo thing here too, sometimes. But it's usually the marginal operators that nobody in their right mind would work for anyway...rubber checks, windy promises, sometimes no pay at all. I've seen day wages that might make a guy think he'd be better off working at Burger King. One outfit brought down three sets of fallers from Washington (nobody around here would work for him) and when they got all the way down here he reneged on the travel money and dropped the day wage by fifty dollars. They went home without adding anything to his dental record. I don't know why not. He wound up having to hire some exchange students from south of the border. They screwed up the lengths so bad that the mills dropped the price and basically ran the guy out of the country. No big loss.

There are good guys out of work around here, too, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. But when there's work for a good faller the outfits know that they're there. I just wish there was more work.


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## Humptulips (Oct 12, 2009)

You know I mostly worked from the yarding end and I saw some pretty messed up cutting jobs in my time. For the most part I think it was related to money. Big company squeezes the contractor and he squeezes the cutting contractor. Result is you either get a contractor that hires people that don't know what they're doing because he can't pay a decent wage or he puts the pressure on to get the maximum timber on the ground no matter what it looks like.And I don't think this saves money in the long run but some people only understand ledger books.

The outfits I worked for that had good cutters and did good jobs payed good wages. They expected a good job and were willing to pay for it but I've seen that change when the screws were put to them financially.


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## Gologit (Oct 12, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> You know I mostly worked from the yarding end and I saw some pretty messed up cutting jobs in my time. For the most part I think it was related to money. Big company squeezes the contractor and he squeezes the cutting contractor. Result is you either get a contractor that hires people that don't know what they're doing because he can't pay a decent wage or he puts the pressure on to get the maximum timber on the ground no matter what it looks like.And I don't think this saves money in the long run but some people only understand ledger books.
> 
> The outfits I worked for that had good cutters and did good jobs payed good wages. They expected a good job and were willing to pay for it but I've seen that change when the screws were put to them financially.



Well said.


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## Greystoke (Oct 12, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I wanted to just re-hash some of the topics we have discussed in production falling, and what my partner (he's on a buncher) and I were discussing last week.
> 
> 1. Stay safe and productive. If your dead or mangled, your no good to your outfit. Work hard. Guys that barley get by, get just that.
> 
> ...



 Well stated.


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## Greystoke (Oct 12, 2009)

John Ellison said:


> I never claimed to be the fastest busheler, but always made the best logs I could


. 

Well said...Me too  




> Have heard it said more than once that the best bushelers are just an inch away from getting fired.



I always wanted to be this way, but I was an :angel: busheler, lol!


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## Burvol (Oct 12, 2009)

Something that came to mind to me today was about taking your ear plugs out when you have a possible situation. Say you have a tree sawed up or close to all the way, and the wedges on your person are all stacked, and you head to your rigging sack for more. I always take my ear plugs out as I walk away (In a safe direction of course LOL) to get wedges, or whatever. Same thing when I have a tree that is in tight and it's getting the snot beat out of it. I hear a lot of the old hand fallers that crossed over to power saws never did care for the lack of hearing the canopy do it's thing.


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## Greystoke (Oct 12, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Something that came to mind to me today was about taking your ear plugs out when you have a possible situation. Say you have a tree sawed up or close to all the way, and the wedges on your person are all stacked, and you head to your rigging sack for more. I always take my ear plugs out as I walk away (In a safe direction of course LOL) to get wedges, or whatever. Same thing when I have a tree that is in tight and it's getting the snot beat out of it. I hear a lot of the old hand fallers that crossed over to power saws never did care for the lack of hearing the canopy do it's thing.



Good point! I take my ear plugs out frequently just for the simple fact that I love hearing a nice tree go down. I still get a thrill out of it...even though I don't cut any nice trees anymore


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## Jacob J. (Oct 12, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Something that came to mind to me today was about taking your ear plugs out when you have a possible situation. Say you have a tree sawed up or close to all the way, and the wedges on your person are all stacked, and you head to your rigging sack for more. I always take my ear plugs out as I walk away (In a safe direction of course LOL) to get wedges, or whatever. Same thing when I have a tree that is in tight and it's getting the snot beat out of it. I hear a lot of the old hand fallers that crossed over to power saws never did care for the lack of hearing the canopy do it's thing.



My grandpa always said there was something magical about cutting a big one down by hand. There was a greater sense of accomplishment, and closer ties to the woods. All aspects of life were a lot simpler back then.


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## 2dogs (Oct 13, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Something that came to mind to me today was about taking your ear plugs out when you have a possible situation. Say you have a tree sawed up or close to all the way, and the wedges on your person are all stacked, and you head to your rigging sack for more. I always take my ear plugs out as I walk away (In a safe direction of course LOL) to get wedges, or whatever. Same thing when I have a tree that is in tight and it's getting the snot beat out of it. I hear a lot of the old hand fallers that crossed over to power saws never did care for the lack of hearing the canopy do it's thing.



I agree with you on this one. I pull my ear plugs frequently on iffy trees and when the canopies are touching. I also always keep extra wedges in the truck.


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## funky sawman (Oct 14, 2009)

Firewooden also makes for a better tree feller. If I fell a tree wrong, my little 1 ton pickup aint gonna pull it out very easily like a skidder with a winch on it. So my felling must be perfect (It is not always perfect) otherwise I cannot get the log out and waisted the tree and the time.


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## RRSsawshop (Oct 14, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Never fill the saw boss' lunchbox with bar oil...
> 
> ...don't ask me why...
> 
> Gary



NOW THATS FUNNY!!!

Back to the topic..MY logging co consists of 3 people,ME,MYSELF and I,so putting the timber on the ground,IN THE RIGHT SPOT is a necessity!! Saves me time in the long run... This is why I ask questions on here from time to time,saves a big mess alot of the time...


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## slowp (Oct 15, 2009)

Here's a concern of mine. Cutting trees that have blown over and are hanging over roads. This one wasn't of any size, but would have scratched any car caught underneath. The road isn't busy this time of year either. But I still got some cones and put them up, then blocked the other side with my pickup. 






Here's my stump. The alder was broken just above about 3 feet.





Lastly, I had to take this picture. The colors are at their peak right now.





Sorry, I'm still learning how to shrink photos on this new computer program thingie.


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## RRSsawshop (Oct 16, 2009)

Hi Patty,
So what is the weather doing on your end?? Rain/snow here and its a plowable snow just to the north/northwest of me... I live in Bloomsburg,PA.
Rob


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## slowp (Oct 16, 2009)

RRSsawshop said:


> Hi Patty,
> So what is the weather doing on your end?? Rain/snow here and its a plowable snow just to the north/northwest of me... I live in Bloomsburg,PA.
> Rob



Monday was dark and stormy. The monsoon is here, but yesterday was dry and gloomy as is this morning. We're supposed to get a heavier rain storm today or tonight. The snow level has gone back up.


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## fmaglin (Oct 16, 2009)

RRSsawshop said:


> Hi Patty,
> So what is the weather doing on your end?? Rain/snow here and its a plowable snow just to the north/northwest of me... I live in Bloomsburg,PA.
> Rob


 Here in Ohio it was spitting sleet yesterday. No snow yet, but we're expecting some tonight. Kinda early for that to be happening. I'm not sure where Bloomsburg is. Do you get alot of lake effect?


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## RRSsawshop (Oct 16, 2009)

fmaglin said:


> Here in Ohio it was spitting sleet yesterday. No snow yet, but we're expecting some tonight. Kinda early for that to be happening. I'm not sure where Bloomsburg is. Do you get alot of lake effect?



We are 50 miles north of Harrisburg,Pa. In the north central region..To have snow this early here is VERY RARE!!!!
Good news,they say 50 degrees again on monday...


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## tramp bushler (Oct 18, 2009)

John Ellison said:


> Right on Burvol, I never claimed to be the fastest busheler, but always made the best logs I could.
> Have heard it said more than once that the best bushelers are just an inch away from getting fired. (Some people actually believed this) Meaing that they are taking too many shortcuts to up production.
> There are shortcuts and then there are shortcuts.
> If the rigging crew, skidder op. or? are continually cussing it does not matter how much you can produce in a day, it is still bad.
> ...


...

. Sounds like you were working at one of Leslie's places .. .. I did for a short while , and I cut next to this guy ,, The bull buck kept telling me to " lighten up " , I couldn,t figure out what he was talking about till I saw some of the ( Prefered Cutters strips ) ,, I tramped .!!:agree2:


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## tramp bushler (Oct 18, 2009)

.. Yup , if you want to find out who does the worst cutting job , just ask the riggin crew ...... Worked for a few outfits that would gripe about my log or tree count , and brag up the guy cuttin next to me ,, I,de say oh , so were tree lengthin now ????????? NO ,WellWellWell what do ya mean , I,de say , well thats what so and so,s doin , if you don,t believe me , GO LOOK !!!! .. All but 1 time the boss or owner would come back thru my strip , and say , looks good , keep it up , the other guy would usually go down the road !!! , Many a thumbers career has been cut short by a bull buck that actually check scaled ...The 1 time , the boss was tree lengthin along with his crankin buddies , I just thot of something , . That outfit , we were cuttin in Ketchikan , that I know of 3 of those guys got their necks broke within the next 3 years .. I don,t know if one of them is still alive, .he was a quad last I knew ........... Ya know how the song goes !!!! ( that were faster and better than me )
.
.


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## John Ellison (Oct 18, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> ...
> 
> . Sounds like you were working at one of Leslie's places .. .. I did for a short while , and I cut next to this guy ,, The bull buck kept telling me to " lighten up " , I couldn,t figure out what he was talking about till I saw some of the ( Prefered Cutters strips ) ,, I tramped .!!:agree2:



Yep, You know who I was talking about.

Hey, How did the moose hunting go?


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## Burvol (Feb 28, 2010)

Jacob J. said:


> J- That's about the best post on log cutting on this site ever. If I were running a crew of log cutters, I'd much rather have a guy who was a bit slower but took great pride in leaving clean strips. I wasn't ever the fastest, and I had no ambitions to be the fastest. It was enough for me to get a saw and a set of jacks out on the unit and actually get wood on the ground. There was always going to be someone faster, more aggressive, or more thick-headed working the next strip over.
> 
> One of the 'fastest' guys I ever worked with ended up losing an eye because he was falling three in a set together and didn't fully assess the situation. The top broke out of one and blew some limbs back when it landed and a broken piece of limb took his eye out. He's still cutting now and is a lot more careful.



Reading this old post, your ideas are pretty close to how I feel a lot of times. I don't care what's going on in the next strip over, I got my tools and lay out here, this is where my focus is. Taking your time to save your ground and making good logs is all that matters. When your set up and peeling it back in manner that gives you some room and options, you got it made. By the end of the day when you just keep humpin' it, you got some serious scale on the ground. The key is don't screw up- mistakes cost more time than any method can produce wood quickly. It's a damn grind. Eat well and rest up, cause once you have a couple of monster days, you are now expected to produce like that, day in and day out. 

I'm stoked to get my season going!


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## Oldtimer (Feb 28, 2010)

redprospector said:


> One thing I know for sure is that running a small skidder made a lot better faller out of me.
> 
> Andy



Bingo. Experience in other parts of the same game will make you better at what you do.


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## 056 kid (Mar 1, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Reading this old post, your ideas are pretty close to how I feel a lot of times. I don't care what's going on in the next strip over, I got my tools and lay out here, this is where my focus is. Taking your time to save your ground and making good logs is all that matters. When your set up and peeling it back in manner that gives you some room and options, you got it made. By the end of the day when you just keep humpin' it, you got some serious scale on the ground. The key is don't screw up- mistakes cost more time than any method can produce wood quickly. It's a damn grind. Eat well and rest up, cause once you have a couple of monster days, you are now expected to produce like that, day in and day out.
> 
> I'm stoked to get my season going!





I was wondering if there where many other bosses out there that thunk the same, my old boss was sure like that...


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## oregoncutter (Mar 2, 2010)

*I agree 100%*



Jacob J. said:


> I don't know about the economic downturn filtering out good cutters here. I see some guys I know that are real meatheads (crackheads in some cases) still working and some other guys I know that are old timers and among the best of the best are struggling to get work. It seems in my area, the depressed economy is favoring slash-and-dash type cutters who are cheaper.



That's what I've been noticing alot, there are quite a few fly by night, poorly experienced, sh##t producing, underbidding, self proclaimed fallers, gathering up a decent percentage of the work in my neck of the woods. Some of them I know, and have seen the results of their work, and wouldn't let em within 5 miles if it were my timber. I don't understand how some of em get work, unless they carry a set of knee pads around. Have people lowered their standards, and expectations in order to try and save money? Or do they not realize how much money some of these guys will cost them in busted up logs, pain in the ass yarding, fines, and lawsuits when one of the many un or underinsured, and unverified so called contractors hurts or kills them self or someone else, or causes major property damage, and no insurance to back it up.
A good examle is the landscaping industry around here, a couple years ago there were only a few landscapers in the are, now every time You drive down the road there's a dozen rigs go by pulling a trailer with a couple weedeaters, and lawnmowers.
That's what I am seeing too much of!


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## forestryworks (Mar 2, 2010)

oregoncutter said:


> That's what I've been noticing alot, there are quite a few fly by night, poorly experienced, sh##t producing, underbidding, self proclaimed fallers, gathering up a decent percentage of the work in my neck of the woods. Some of them I know, and have seen the results of their work, and wouldn't let em within 5 miles if it were my timber. I don't understand how some of em get work, unless they carry a set of knee pads around. Have people lowered their standards, and expectations in order to try and save money? Or do they not realize how much money some of these guys will cost them in busted up logs, pain in the ass yarding, fines, and lawsuits when one of the many un or underinsured, and unverified so called contractors hurts or kills them self or someone else, or causes major property damage, and no insurance to back it up.
> A good examle is the landscaping industry around here, a couple years ago there were only a few landscapers in the are, now every time You drive down the road there's a dozen rigs go by pulling a trailer with a couple weedeaters, and lawnmowers.
> That's what I am seeing too much of!



You got that landscaper part right. Every Tom, ####, and Harry with a truck and a trailer and yard equipment is calling themselves a landscaping outfit. Some of them couldn't edge a lawn if God told them how.

Same thing goes with the "woodcutters" around here. I see lots of china mart saw people out leaving the worst stumps in the land.


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## fmaglin (Mar 2, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> You got that landscaper part right. Every Tom, ####, and Harry with a truck and a trailer and yard equipment is calling themselves a landscaping outfit. Some of them couldn't edge a lawn if God told them how.
> 
> Same thing goes with the "woodcutters" around here. I see lots of china mart saw people out leaving the worst stumps in the land.


:
The same is going on here, especially the "woodcutters". I've seen some stumps that would make you afraid to want look farther as you may not know what or who you may find lying on the ground.


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## tlandrum (Mar 2, 2010)

i have had a few fallers that must have just thought we were playing pic up sticks. they would brag about how much wood they could cut but it took twice as long to get it skidded out and the leave trees got scared up bad becouse of the trees being strown every where. some suposed fallers can only fall where the tree leans. i too am down to me myself and i but i am putting out as much timber as other 3 men crews do. i had one mill ask me how many guys were helping me and i laughed. then said at the time being your looking at my crew. sometimes having a good cutter is worth two good choke setters.


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## 056 kid (Mar 2, 2010)

Having a bunk skidder operator can really throw a monkey wrench in a good fallers operation..


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 2, 2010)

I have to agree with the other folks who said this before. It's pretty F-in stupid to hire someone cheap who does a F-ed up job. Hiring someone a little more pricey yet still does a good job will pay off later.


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## Burvol (Mar 2, 2010)

oregoncutter said:


> That's what I've been noticing alot, there are quite a few fly by night, poorly experienced, sh##t producing, underbidding, self proclaimed fallers, gathering up a decent percentage of the work in my neck of the woods. Some of them I know, and have seen the results of their work, and wouldn't let em within 5 miles if it were my timber. I don't understand how some of em get work, unless they carry a set of knee pads around. Have people lowered their standards, and expectations in order to try and save money? Or do they not realize how much money some of these guys will cost them in busted up logs, pain in the ass yarding, fines, and lawsuits when one of the many un or underinsured, and unverified so called contractors hurts or kills them self or someone else, or causes major property damage, and no insurance to back it up.
> A good examle is the landscaping industry around here, a couple years ago there were only a few landscapers in the are, now every time You drive down the road there's a dozen rigs go by pulling a trailer with a couple weedeaters, and lawnmowers.
> That's what I am seeing too much of!




I have beat this over the head, relentlesly here at AS. Macho ass log cutter wannabes that have no business being in the business....needing some much deprived attention from their childhood and never finding a girl to stomach their crap for more than two hours. It's some sort of inadequicy, or deficiancy in the brain. Some of these jokers could be trainded the right way to do it if their egos would allow. Instead, they want to run through the strip and stand on their last stump of the day and _bask in their mess_. lol 
Instead of being cocky, they could try for perfection, cause no one is perfect, but if your that damn hot, you should try


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm a pretty stubborn guy, but I'm not so stubborn that I'm not willing to learn how to cut from someone far more experienced then me. Guys like that who are too "proud" to seek help are the ones who get killed.


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## coastalfaller (Mar 2, 2010)

oregoncutter said:


> That's what I've been noticing alot, there are quite a few fly by night, poorly experienced, sh##t producing, underbidding, self proclaimed fallers, gathering up a decent percentage of the work in my neck of the woods. Some of them I know, and have seen the results of their work, and wouldn't let em within 5 miles if it were my timber. I don't understand how some of em get work, unless they carry a set of knee pads around. Have people lowered their standards, and expectations in order to try and save money? Or do they not realize how much money some of these guys will cost them in busted up logs, pain in the ass yarding, fines, and lawsuits when one of the many un or underinsured, and unverified so called contractors hurts or kills them self or someone else, or causes major property damage, and no insurance to back it up.
> A good examle is the landscaping industry around here, a couple years ago there were only a few landscapers in the are, now every time You drive down the road there's a dozen rigs go by pulling a trailer with a couple weedeaters, and lawnmowers.
> That's what I am seeing too much of!



It's been that way here for awhile, but my hopes seem to be coming to fruition! Things seem to be slowly turning for the better. Price is still the main factor, but there is more room now to talk and state my case. If I can prove why I need what I'm asking for, (and I can, to the penny!) I usually can get it now. I even had a conversation with a licensee awhile back who said that for so long contractors were considered a necessary evil, but he sees the days ahead where there won't be enough of us and the licensees will be bidding for our services! That day would be sweet justice!


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## coastalfaller (Mar 2, 2010)

StumpStomper said:


> I have to agree with the other folks who said this before. It's pretty F-in stupid to hire someone cheap who does a F-ed up job. Hiring someone a little more pricey yet still does a good job will pay off later.



Absolutely. For too long it's been too easy for anyone with a crummy and a saw to all of a sudden decide "I think I'm going to be a falling contractor, looks easy enough!" By the time they've found they're sorely mistaken, they've made a complete mess of things (and the rates) for everyone else!


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## Jacob J. (Mar 2, 2010)

coastalfaller said:


> Absolutely. For too long it's been too easy for anyone with a crummy and a saw to all of a sudden decide "I think I'm going to be a falling contractor, looks easy enough!" By the time they've found they're sorely mistaken, they've made a complete mess of things (and the rates) for everyone else!



That happened here in the mid-90's. A bunch of crackheads went out and bought saws and started advertising themselves as log cutters. One set of those guys I was working alongside rigged up a deal where they would report their pickup "stolen" (they were camping on the job) and turn it into their insurance to get a new one. 

Another one I was working with ended up staying up on the job for 8 days/7 nights because he was on the run from Johnny Law. I had to take him food, saw gas, and bar oil to keep him going (otherwise I'd be alone and couldn't work.) At the end of day 8 he decided to risk a trip to town and was promptly arrested and thrown in jail for 90 days. I was down for 4 days before I could find another guy to take up on the job.


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## Gologit (Mar 2, 2010)

coastalfaller said:


> Absolutely. For too long it's been too easy for anyone with a crummy and a saw to all of a sudden decide "I think I'm going to be a falling contractor, looks easy enough!" By the time they've found they're sorely mistaken, they've made a complete mess of things (and the rates) for everyone else!



Yup. We saw a lot of that on the burn salvage we did the last couple of years. For the first year if you had a pulse and could carry a saw you could find a job falling for somebody. Man, did that get ugly. Like most burn salvage the busy part didn't last too long and a lot of those guys went back to wherever they came from.
A lot of them were exchange students from south of the border. They worked for Burger King wages, slept on the ground, and never went to town until the job was over. I wonder why?


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## coastalfaller (Mar 2, 2010)

Jacob J. said:


> That happened here in the mid-90's. A bunch of crackheads went out and bought saws and started advertising themselves as log cutters. One set of those guys I was working alongside rigged up a deal where they would report their pickup "stolen" (they were camping on the job) and turn it into their insurance to get a new one.
> 
> Another one I was working with ended up staying up on the job for 8 days/7 nights because he was on the run from Johnny Law. I had to take him food, saw gas, and bar oil to keep him going (otherwise I'd be alone and couldn't work.) At the end of day 8 he decided to risk a trip to town and was promptly arrested and thrown in jail for 90 days. I was down for 4 days before I could find another guy to take up on the job.



Yep, we've had our fair share of guys like that too. I knew one guy who's dream it was to buy a Ford Ranger. He stayed in camp for 60 days straight. Each day he'd draw a new piece of his prize (tire, door handle, etc). Finally he went to town, when he made it back I asked him if he bought his truck. He looked down at the floor and walked away. Turned out he blew his stake on crack and had to pawn his saws to get back to camp! This is the same guy who when you'd walk by his room he'd be lying on his bed pointing at the ceiling counting the dots on it!


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## coastalfaller (Mar 2, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Yup. We saw a lot of that on the burn salvage we did the last couple of years. For the first year if you had a pulse and could carry a saw you could find a job falling for somebody. Man, did that get ugly. Like most burn salvage the busy part didn't last too long and a lot of those guys went back to wherever they came from.
> A lot of them were exchange students from south of the border. They worked for Burger King wages, slept on the ground, and never went to town until the job was over. I wonder why?



Unbelievable.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 2, 2010)

Shouldn't there be more background checks and drug tests for hiring cutters and loggers? I think they would help thin the herd of crappy cutters, I know I have no problem with that.


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## Gologit (Mar 3, 2010)

coastalfaller said:


> Unbelievable.



What was unbelievable was how many of those people just suddenly became available. They reminded me of a swarm of locusts.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 3, 2010)

Hearing all of this seems crazy to me, sounds like some companies will hire anyone who can run a chainsaw.


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## Gologit (Mar 3, 2010)

StumpStomper said:


> Shouldn't there be more background checks and drug tests for hiring cutters and loggers? I think they would help thin the herd of crappy cutters, I know I have no problem with that.



If you eliminated every man with a criminal history or a tendency to blaze up on the weekends you might not have too many left to make up your crew.

Most of our new hires, and there aren't many, are someone that somebody in the crew knows. I take them as they are. If they have a drug problem that affects their work I don't keep them. People that will do this kind of work day after day might have a few little rough spots on them but if they do what they're supposed to I tend not to judge them.


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2010)

Gologit said:


> If you eliminated every man with a criminal history or a tendency to blaze up on the weekends you might not have too many left to make up your crew.
> 
> People that will do this kind of work day after day might have a few little rough spots on them but if they do what they're supposed to I tend not to judge them.



Yep, truer words have never been spoken here.

I love this old joke-guy is brought before the judge, monday morning. 

Judge "Sir, you were involved in a bar fight, you are facing many charges. I see you already have an extensive record, so I want you to post a $500 bond to be released"

Logger "Can't do it your honor, I'm broke"

Judge "What? I understand you are a faller, what do you make?

Logger "Around $500 a day" 

Judge " You were in camp for two months untill this weekend, how can you be broke, what did you do with all the money you made?"

Logger "Well your honor, I spent some of it on hoors, some in the bar on booze, some on cocaine, I guess I just wasted the rest"


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## tramp bushler (Mar 3, 2010)

.. Funny thing about all the druggies in the timber industry , and why they are allowed ... What ever it takes to reduce the cost of resource extraction is what the big outfits want ............. Tho they complain there arn,t any new guys in the brush , why would any one with a brain in his head want to do what we do for the same or less money than what guys made nearly 30 years ago ....


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## Burvol (Mar 3, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> .. Funny thing about all the druggies in the timber industry , and why they are allowed ... What ever it takes to reduce the cost of resource extraction is what the big outfits want ............. Tho they complain there arn,t any new guys in the brush , why would any one with a brain in his head want to do what we do for the same or less money than what guys made nearly 30 years ago ....



It's called the price of wood has dropped


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## slowp (Mar 3, 2010)

They definitely get the quality they pay for. I sure notice. Just before the bust, one guy's crew had petered out so he could only get/afford a couple of crack boys in the rigging. They were fast, but they did not care about scarring up trees. I was down with them a lot. More than I should have been. 

By the way, I find myself thinking about having a part time lawnmowing, brush piling after others take down trees, for second home owners business.  I may have a name for it, La Gringa. :monkey:


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## Gologit (Mar 3, 2010)

slowp said:


> They definitely get the quality they pay for. I sure notice. Just before the bust, one guy's crew had petered out so he could only get/afford a couple of crack boys in the rigging. They were fast, but they did not care about scarring up trees. I was down with them a lot. More than I should have been.
> 
> By the way, I find myself thinking about having a part time lawnmowing, brush piling after others take down trees, for second home owners business.  I may have a name for it, La Gringa. :monkey:



Good idea!! We'll start sending people north so you'll have plenty of employees to choose from. How many bus loads do you need? I'll mail you a Hmong/English dictionary...you already know enough 'Espanol. :greenchainsaw:


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## coastalfaller (Mar 3, 2010)

Gologit said:


> If you eliminated every man with a criminal history or a tendency to blaze up on the weekends you might not have too many left to make up your crew.
> 
> Most of our new hires, and there aren't many, are someone that somebody in the crew knows. I take them as they are. If they have a drug problem that affects their work I don't keep them. People that will do this kind of work day after day might have a few little rough spots on them but if they do what they're supposed to I tend not to judge them.



Me too


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## hammerlogging (Mar 3, 2010)

Gologit said:


> If you eliminated every man with a criminal history or a tendency to blaze up on the weekends you might not have too many left to make up your crew.
> 
> Most of our new hires, and there aren't many, are someone that somebody in the crew knows. I take them as they are. If they have a drug problem that affects their work I don't keep them. People that will do this kind of work day after day might have a few little rough spots on them but if they do what they're supposed to I tend not to judge them.



My boss was musing the other day we might drop logging altogether, just buy it standing, do all the layout, fall the timber, process, and market, leave all the logging to the whirlybird dudes. Turn key. And go fishing the other 6 months of the year.

Good labor is a real challenge for us. I must emphasize the GOOD part of that statement.


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## joesawer (Mar 3, 2010)

Burvol said:


> It's called the price of wood has dropped



The price of wood did not drop until just recently, and then not much.
Stumpage went up, retail lumber went up, BUT mandated expense went through the roof in the past 30 years. Every thing went up but the pay.


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## Burvol (Mar 4, 2010)

joesawer said:


> The price of wood did not drop until just recently, and then not much.
> Stumpage went up, retail lumber went up, BUT mandated expense went through the roof in the past 30 years. Every thing went up but the pay.



I beg to differ.


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## RPM (Mar 4, 2010)

joesawer said:


> The price of wood did not drop until just recently, and then not much.
> Stumpage went up, retail lumber went up, BUT mandated expense went through the roof in the past 30 years. Every thing went up but the pay.



Log prices died up here almost 2 years ago, along the price of lumber. The descison was made this past Decmber to buy from logs fromthe open market and not log any of our woodthis year b/c it is cheaper to do so. Our best product (like Burvol's) is Doug-fir, which we cut for speciality market/export - Europe/Japan/Aus). Our operation can't make money on white wood (SPF) becasue our mill is not geared so much for small log and fast line speed. What it cost us to make a 2x4 is more than what we are geting - thats the problem. Wages have probably gone up every year as it hard to reatin experience and reliable workers. At least up here no english no work!

This past week the RL SPF prices went up but DF is still inthe toilet. I don't see it getting better yet.


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## oregoncutter (Mar 4, 2010)

*Dropped fast in my market*



joesawer said:


> The price of wood did not drop until just recently, and then not much.
> Stumpage went up, retail lumber went up, BUT mandated expense went through the roof in the past 30 years. Every thing went up but the pay.



I agree with Burvol when it dropped it dropped, and dropped fast, in late 08 early 09 export logs were nearly going for what standard doug fir was in 06-07, and pulp or utility wood damn near is matched up with whitewood rates. And yes expenses have gone up for everyone.


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## joesawer (Mar 5, 2010)

I am talking longer term. The post was about wages being static for 30 years.
People working in the woods where making about as much in the 80s as they where before the crash.
Yes log prices dropped to nothing and virtually stopped moving by 2008, But the price of lumber has not dropped by much.
I think the spotted owl and shrinking demand for skilled people kept people working for the same money while inflation was going into effect on almost everything else.

Don't even get me started on Canadian 2X4s in the US! Your cheap subsidized lumber is one of the things that hurt our industry bad.


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