# my first Fern gully tree take down



## tramp bushler (Jun 29, 2013)

I'll be taking this one down thisweek Lord willing. I have a ground crew now so I'll b doing the climbing and they can handle the lowering work. The Fern gully tree  - YouTube


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## imagineero (Jun 29, 2013)

don't look too bad... but man you sound wheesy.... have you got a cold or what?


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## tramp bushler (Jun 29, 2013)

. I had just inhaled some Deet. But I think the sound is messedup on the vid? I think the tree will take me us a couple days.


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## CanopyGorilla (Jun 29, 2013)

A few days?!?!?!? My boss would be pissed if I didn't have that on the ground by 2:30. Clean up would take a while though if you couldn't get a mini skid back there. It is sketchy that it's hollow, like really sketchy and really hollow.


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## IcePick (Jun 29, 2013)

CanopyGorilla said:


> A few days?!?!?!? My boss would be pissed if I didn't have that on the ground by 2:30. Clean up would take a while though if you couldn't get a mini skid back there. It is sketchy that it's hollow, like really sketchy and really hollow.



I believe he said a couple, not a few, and he didnt specify cleanup included or just getting it on the ground. Sounds like your boss is a peach to work for.

Anyway bushler, i assume youre running your own show and dont have to beat the clock for a boss? That would be nice for ya because it doesnt look like the type of tree to rush or lower big if you have to climb it. Good luck on it.


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## CanopyGorilla (Jun 29, 2013)

IcePick said:


> I believe he said a couple, not a few, and he didnt specify cleanup included or just getting it on the ground. Sounds like your boss is a peach to work for.
> 
> Anyway bushler, i assume youre running your own show and dont have to beat the clock for a boss? That would be nice for ya because it doesnt look like the type of tree to rush or lower big if you have to climb it. Good luck on it.



Yeah, He is a real peach. I could see clean up on that taking a while with no machine to move it. That is one hollow ass tree though, holy cow!!!


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## treemandan (Jun 30, 2013)

Looks like a crane job. I got a little curious when the guy who is taking it down referred to it as "The Fern Gulley Tree". What? He don't know what kind of tree it is? What does he put on the estimate sheet? " Remove Fern Gulley Tree" ?


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## woodchuck357 (Jun 30, 2013)

Couple of years back I took down one sorta like that at a friend's place. Left it about 10 feet tall, cut an off center peak, and framed a steep pitch roof that I covered with 3 foot hand rived red oak shakes. Made a little girl and her Mom very happy to have a hazard down and still had her ivy covered play house.


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## tramp bushler (Jun 30, 2013)

We work on an hourly rate. The time I figured includes all cleanup. We have to do everything possible to keep all we do on the right of way. No way to get a crane back there without messing up the lawn we have to fix that.
I sure ain't the fastest climber but I figure that all concerned are getting a good deal . 
And it not too big or bad and it will be the first lowering job for my ground crew.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jun 30, 2013)

Looks like a perfect job to rent a small awd manlift for.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Jun 30, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Looks like a perfect job to rent a small awd manlift for.



Good advice, I wouldnt want to climb that hollow tree


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## tramp bushler (Jun 30, 2013)

Ya, that would be easier. But if its too easy, what do they need a climber for. They can just use a 12 buck an hour dummy. 
I figured this kind of tree was an arborist bread and butter.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jun 30, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Ya, that would be easier. But if its too easy, what do they need a climber for. They can just use a 12 buck an hour dummy.
> I figured this kind of tree was an arborist bread and butter.



Yes, but a dead arborist wont make any bread and butter tomorrow!


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## pdqdl (Jun 30, 2013)

I seem to remember some pretty impressive spruce removals that you have reported in the past. I think you'll find that cottonwood to be a breeze. So long as nothing breaks off when you don't want it to, the hollow trees are a lot less work. Lighter, less wood to tote out of the back yard.

Next time you take a video, try to get far enough away from the tree to evaluate the top. It looks to me like you could pretty easy chunk that down into the yard and never bother with the fence.


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## slice'N'dice'M (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, at least you guys have somewhere to take lunch, looks like the fern cave would hold all 3 of ya. !


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## tramp bushler (Jul 1, 2013)

. Got some great news this afternoon at the shop when I was picking up the chipper to come back down to Valdez for the week. The boss got me a new Husqvarna Pole Saw. That will save a lot of shinnying up those suckers. . . He is pushing me t be cautious so that is a good load off. 
I mean, push came to shove I could have it on the ground in around 7 minutes. So speed isn't the criteria. 
I'll try t do better with my videoing. 

I appreciate all the comments. !


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## tramp bushler (Jul 1, 2013)

*Husky 327P5 pole saw.*

Well its lunch. So thot Ide throw this out there. I've run less than a half tank thru the new pole saw so far. I really like it. It cuts a lot better than I thot it would. It has an adjustable oiler that I set on Max. So far the only thing I'm not too impressed with is the harness.


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## pdqdl (Jul 1, 2013)

A harness? What model pole saw is that? 

I cannot imagine trying to use a pole saw with a harness. It sounds like a nightmare, particularly if you are already in the tree. Is this a pic of the contraption?


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

Yup. That's the harness. I'm gonna use the shoulder strap that I use for the saws when I have them send it up. 



This tree is quite probably the single worst tree I've ever klum. 
The far side is too rotten to hold my weight. . I've got t get a line over the top limbs. I only got half way up by quitting time 
I have 1 ratchet strap on it so far. Gonna put 2 or 3 more on it. . I guess a Big Shot is next on the list of things to get.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

..

I spent too much time thinking about the problems with this tree tday


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## slice'N'dice'M (Jul 2, 2013)

Dude that tree is way bigger than it looked.........

take your time, think it through....

and be careful 

small and slow on this one my friend....

from the looks of it, don't have much of a choice, seeing that it is one large bush!

Oh, and I like how you tie into those burls.....that is SWEET! haha...that is one Fern Ridden Beast of a Tree !


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## pdqdl (Jul 2, 2013)

I'm not quite sure why you are leaving all those bushy branches in your way. If I am spurring my way up, I just keep walking around the tree, stripping branches. Just remember: the more branches you cut off, the less likely the tree is to notice your weight. 
_{some folks argue against that, mostly related to tall rotten conifers}_


Do you climb very many cottonwoods? They don't hinge worth a darn, and the branches break off sooner than you would expect, even on a healthy tree.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I'll be taking this one down thisweek Lord willing. I have a ground crew now so I'll b doing the climbing and they can handle the lowering work. The Fern gully tree  - YouTube



Great narration as always. I'm not super concerned about you, you seem to know more than most. I just hope the new groundies are up to the task. My advice? You don't need any advice from me. Use that pole saw to spend as little time as possible up that rotten cotton, and stay safe


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## imagineero (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> . I had just inhaled some Deet.



Does it keep the bugs away better using it like that? I generally just spray it on exposed skin. 

Shaun


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I'm not quite sure why you are leaving all those bushy branches in your way. If I am spurring my way up, I just keep walking around the tree, stripping branches. Just remember: the more branches you cut off, the less likely the tree is to notice your weight.
> _{some folks argue against that, mostly related to tall rotten conifers}_
> 
> 
> Do you climb very many cottonwoods? They don't hinge worth a darn, and the branches break off sooner than you would expect, even on a healthy tree.



. The problem is getting around the low side of it . Too rotten for me to stand on. So I can't just screw my way up the tree like I do on a big burly conifer.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

Cotton wood is the predominant tree in Valdez. Most of them that I have to climb are young and healthy. Yes the small limbs are only useful for messing up throwing a line. I swear they have a rope adhesive on them. . I'm using a 2 lb throw weight and its not enough much of the time. I should have gotten some Zing it. .


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## pdqdl (Jul 2, 2013)

Regarding the rotten side: I would still be zig-zagging my way up that tree rather than fight all the junk in the way. But I'm not there, and nothing settles a "best technique" question like being the man in the tree. 

Shucks. I'm still trying to figure out how you were advancing those ropes around all those bushy suckers. In fact, I'm not entirely certain that I wouldn't have rented a 40' ladder and just gone up the aluminum tree escalator. 

That tree looks like a gigantic pain to climb.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 2, 2013)

I hate ladders, but that mess does call for one. You'll get er Tramp. Lookin forward to pics tonight.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

On coffee break. I got a line overvyhe top but its not just right bit I think it will hold me. Till I can rig another line. 

I sure am glad I did some practice on my porch this winter.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

Well at this point its F.G.tree 2 . Tramp 0 . 

What's the difference between being chicken and being wise or smart. . I called for a 4 wd Genii man lift. After some bark 2'×3' fell off reveling more rot than I thot yesterday.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Well at this point its F.G.tree 2 . Tramp 0 .
> 
> What's the difference between being chicken and being wise or smart. . I called for a 4 wd Genii man lift. After some bark 2'×3' fell off reveling more rot than I thot yesterday.



Good call tramp! way to play it safe


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## Gologit (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Well at this point its F.G.tree 2 . Tramp 0 .
> 
> What's the difference between being chicken and being wise or smart. . I called for a 4 wd Genii man lift. After some bark 2'×3' fell off reveling more rot than I thot yesterday.



Good call.


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## pdqdl (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Well at this point its F.G.tree 2 . Tramp 0 .
> 
> What's the difference between being chicken and being wise or smart. . I called for a 4 wd Genii man lift. After some bark 2'×3' fell off reveling more rot than I thot yesterday.



I think you got the score wrong. F.G.T. played it's last card in the effort to scare you off. I'd penalize the tree one point for delay of game. Score one for yourself for taking security measures to make sure you finish without any team injuries. _Call it a tie score.
_
Chicken is when you don't understand the risks, don't know how to evaluate them, and leave a job that would have been ok to do with the proper experience. Being smart is when you know the risks, and determine that it wasn't worth taking. 

Had that tree been life threatening to a trapped busload of 4th graders, I might criticize you for delaying until you got a proper lift for the job. Since no such scenario existed, I can only add praise for not trying to join the "arboricultural injuries" forum in a most unsatisfying manner.

Myself, I am plain old chicken. I did a big old barkless elm tree once, and gave myself such a good scare that it still keeps me out of dead trees 25 years later. I cringe when I see folks climbing dead trees, although I don't have the same fear of hollow trees, like the one you were in. Maybe that is just a lack of good sense.


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## IcePick (Jul 2, 2013)

No shame in that buddy. I refused to climb a silver maple today looking very similar to your cottonwood. Typical mini lift job, but its broke down, client is antsy, of course management sends us there saying it can probably be climbed. Climbing it is the easy part, the way a tree like these reacts to shock loads is what will get you.

Make sure to post pics with the lift if you can.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

OK. Thanks guys. Dan called it right ( Treeman Dan) . . . If it was a solid shell it would have been no prob. And there are plenty of cottonwoods in town here like this one. I haven't hadto climb any of them yet. I got up as far as I had yesterday but on the back side . Chunks of bark and wood kept bombing me so I got to lookin and poking around more. :msp_ohmy: . . That's when I called the boss. I feel badly about it. But I feel better than if I had broke my back or hips ect. 

So this afternoon I took down 4 smaller ones. It was blowing a little. . No trauma, no drama.!! . Topped them at 4" diameter a bit higher than I would have the F.G.T. . 

Thanks again.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

. One of my ground guys sitting inside it.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> . One of my ground guys sitting inside it.



Why didn't ya just send the kid up? 

Just kidding, good call, tramp. I didn't like that tree much at all.


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## mr. holden wood (Jul 2, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Ya, that would be easier. But if its too easy, what do they need a climber for. They can just use a 12 buck an hour dummy.
> I figured this kind of tree was an arborist bread and butter.



If I was your boss I would make you complete this removal out of principal and for your own good....... manually. A arborists bread and butter is efficently evalauting trees, youve wasted days on this afternoon tree. Know what your capabilities are,I knew you were in trouble from the get go.


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## Gologit (Jul 2, 2013)

mr. holden wood said:


> If I was your boss I would make you complete this removal out of principal and for your own good....... manually. A arborists bread and butter is efficently evalauting trees, youve wasted days on this afternoon tree. Know what your capabilities are,I knew you were in trouble from the get go.



The only time you ever show up here is when you have something bad to say about somebody. Take it someplace else.


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## pdqdl (Jul 2, 2013)

mr. holden wood said:


> A arborists bread and butter is efficently evalauting trees, youve wasted days on this afternoon tree. Know what your capabilities are...



Really? I have to take issue with that on several points. 

1. An arborist's bread and butter is ACCURATELY evaluating trees, which can only be done in many cases with an actual climb of the tree. HE DID THAT.
2. Having evaluated the tree, he seems to know right well what his capabilities are, and he prudently called for backup in the form of a lift. 

You are going to criticize a man for climbing a tree and then calling for a lift, when you haven't come closer than 1000 miles from it? If you were my boss, I don't think I would climb very long for you, unless you were willing to climb that tree and show me what it was all about.

I employ climbers, and have for years. My deal with all of them, whether they have lots of experience or just a little, is that I will never tell them how they must do a particular part of a tree job. It's their life, and I'm not in the tree. I only reserve the right to give advice, make strong recommendations, and to order them out of the tree if I feel like it.


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## pdqdl (Jul 2, 2013)

Look at that. Me and Gologit together on the same side of a tree. Whoda thunk it?


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## tramp bushler (Jul 2, 2013)

No doubt a better arborist than me could have done it. Unfortunately there aren't any around here. ( where I'm located. ) 

If ya never try, ya never succeed. I tried. I failed. But I'm still ambulatory. . Part of the reason why I get to live to climb tomorrow. And I will get this one to ground level. And inthe mean time I get to eat humble pie. . 

Oh and holding wood. I ain't called a Tramp cause I hung onto a job with guys like you. :msp_rolleyes:


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## pdqdl (Jul 2, 2013)

I don't think you need to eat any humble pie. That looked like an ugly scene with your ropes bound up in all the suckers on that behemoth. I wasn't thinking to myself how much I would have liked to be there to show you how it was done. _Nope_. I was sitting here at my computer thanking my lucky stars that nobody asked me to climb that tree.

Most guys wouldn't have the heart to even put a lanyard around it. I think you should take pride in having made a good faith effort, evaluated it from aloft, and then declined to get hurt over your ego or for a few dollars.


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## Gologit (Jul 2, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> Look at that. Me and Gologit together on the same side of a tree. Whoda thunk it?



Don't let it go to your head, I'm sure we'll lock horns again. :msp_biggrin:


You were right, though. TB took a good hard look at that tree and chose a better and safer method. That shows judgement. TB is a logger, a production faller, as well as being a climber. He knows how to evaluate risk...he does it every time he works.
If he was working for me I would have backed his play.

If MrHoldenWood was working for me I imagine I'd be sending him home early. Having balls is good...as long as they're not bigger than your brain.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 3, 2013)

It is a good experience for me tho. Helps keep the ego in check. Along with teaching me to have a greater respect for arborists on this site and in general. I honestly wish I could have had one of you to look the tree over with me. . 
When I took the vid I honestly figured it would be 2-2 1/2 days of hard and sometimes difficult work. But as more and more junk fell off the tree I lost confidence in my ability to safely get it down while being tied to it. 

I will be paying closer attention to my betters on here in the future.


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## imagineero (Jul 3, 2013)

You get better and faster at assessing trees in terms of climbing, rigging and time required with experience, but no matter how much experience you have you should never ignore your instincts. Instincts are funny things, they're often hard to justify.... but I can't help think that they're sent to us for a reason! Every accident/injury story I've ever heard starts off with something like "man, I knew something was wrong, I wish I'd listened to my gut feeling on it". It's hard to give credence to those gut feelings when your brain is telling you that things should be fine, but listen to that instinct and it will keep you alive! I think all woodsmen have that sense - fallers and climbers, groundies and rigging slingers.

I don't walk away from many jobs, maybe only one a year, but I never regret it and I never second guess myself. When that sense starts tingling I pack up my gear and live to fight another day.

Shaun


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## tramp bushler (Jul 3, 2013)

I didn't have peace inside about it once I got it preped. It was fine when we were gettin the suckers down but when I got up it it was real agitated.


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## Metals406 (Jul 3, 2013)

I say you made the right call Glen.

The first thing I thought when I saw your pics was "manlift" -- call me a wussy, but I like being alive, and that tree is sketchy -- even dumping it would make my butt pucker.


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 3, 2013)

we need to get tramp hooked up with a go pro cam on his hard hat  ,good call on the man lift ,besides the safe factor ,should speed production a lot ,i love my little snorkle boom for tree work


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## Pelorus (Jul 3, 2013)

I don't walk away from many jobs either, and it is usually cause of bad vibes from the potential client rather than the tree. Have never regretted letting somebody else absorb the aggravation. I don't know (from just looking at the photos) how climbing that cottonwood to dismantle it would have worked out. Or not......


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## treemandan (Jul 3, 2013)

Holden Wood has a valid point and Gologit, remember, NO WHINNING!


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## Zale (Jul 3, 2013)

I try to follow a simple rule, NO TREE IS WORTH THE RISK OF INJURY OR DEATH. You came up with another plan and there is no shame in that. There can be a lot of pressure on a climber to get the job done and move on to the next one. Thats how people get hurt. You made the right call.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 3, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Holden Wood has a valid point and Gologit, remember, NO WHINNING!



So following this logic, a climber man's up, reassesses the tree, and decides either the tree is unsafe or over his capabilities. Looks like this one might have been a little of both. And your response, along with the guy who's always Holden his Wood, is to send him back up to finish the job, as like, what, punishment? Not to mention we don't know where tramp's boss's position on this was from the beginning. If tramp pushed to do the job without a lift, wasted two days and cost his boss money, then they may need to work something out, or part ways, or whatever. Not gonna get involved in that discussion. But a thought process where a climber is mature enough to recognize either his limitations or the true state of the tree( I think it was pdql that made the very valid point that sometimes ya don't know till your up there), and ya'lls response is to make him man up and finish the job is pretty ####ed up in my opinion.


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## pdqdl (Jul 3, 2013)

Every single tree is a risk of injury or death. It does not need to be big, dead, rotten, or technically challenging.

I know. I had a climber killed in an easy tree. Stupid mistake, he did himself in. The very worst part was that our bucket truck was parked right on the job, waiting to go to work. It would seem that he didn't need any sort of lift for that tree; he could get it done quicker without the bucket.

Kenny was a good guy, it's too bad that he got in a hurry and was complacent about safety.


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## brushdragon (Jul 3, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I didn't have peace inside about it once I got it preped. It was fine when we were gettin the suckers down but when I got up it it was real agitated.



Good call, she sure looked nasty. Better to turn around 15 feet up and live to post about it.


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## Gologit (Jul 3, 2013)

brushdragon said:


> Good call, she sure looked nasty. Better to turn around 15 feet up and live to post about it.



Gee, that's not what you said yesterday when you were logged in under MrHoldenWood.


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## pdqdl (Jul 3, 2013)

Oh man! Don't you just hate it when the authorities catch you being sneaky?

It almost makes it not worth trying.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 3, 2013)

Oops


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## tramp bushler (Jul 4, 2013)

The only loss to the boss will be the cost of either mobing a lift there and back. Or renting one in Valdez. There are several available there . I figure a Max of half day rental. He told me that if that 1 tree took me 3 days that was fine with him. As long as no one got hurt . I have less than 10 hrs on that tree so far.

No one seems perterbed about my decision yet 
The ground guys seemed a little disappointed. Till I told them they could go get the spare belt and spurs and join me up in it. They couldn't have declined my invitation any faster than they did. 
I've got all the stuff off it that was hanging over 1 guest house and 1 deck and house. So the time wasn't wasted. I'm home for the rest of the week. 4day weekend.


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## treemandan (Jul 4, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> So following this logic, a climber man's up, reassesses the tree, and decides either the tree is unsafe or over his capabilities. Looks like this one might have been a little of both. And your response, along with the guy who's always Holden his Wood, is to send him back up to finish the job, as like, what, punishment? Not to mention we don't know where tramp's boss's position on this was from the beginning. If tramp pushed to do the job without a lift, wasted two days and cost his boss money, then they may need to work something out, or part ways, or whatever. Not gonna get involved in that discussion. But a thought process where a climber is mature enough to recognize either his limitations or the true state of the tree( I think it was pdql that made the very valid point that sometimes ya don't know till your up there), and ya'lls response is to make him man up and finish the job is pretty ####ed up in my opinion.



Actually, if you were following any logic whatsoever you would realize that I didn't say that. All I said was that HW had a point... and for Gologit to remember NO WHINNING. I think you both, in some insecure state of paranoia and need to feel potent, jumped to some conclusion that best suited yourselves. Of course that is just and only what I think and I could be wrong so why would and how could a thick skinned tree man be so offended I don't know. It appears that logic is not the forte of such men.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 4, 2013)

mr. holden wood said:


> If I was your boss I would make you complete this removal out of principal and for your own good....... manually. A arborists bread and butter is efficently evalauting trees, youve wasted days on this afternoon tree. Know what your capabilities are,I knew you were in trouble from the get go.



So what point do you agree with, Dan? Use small words so we can understand. And Gologit didn't whine, he moderated, kind of his job. Jeff


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## Pelorus (Jul 4, 2013)

Good grief. Who woulda thunk a cottonwood removal would become more controversial than a President's birth certificate?


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 4, 2013)

Sorry, but I will always defend a climber who made a smart decision, no matter what his ability. and to suggest a climber should go back up in a tree he isn't comfortable with to prove some point is grossly irresponsible, in my humble opinion. Jeff


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## treemandan (Jul 4, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> So what point do you agree with, Dan? Use small words so we can understand. And Gologit didn't whine, he moderated, kind of his job. Jeff



I agree with the main point. 

Moderated what? I don't get it but I got a kick out of the smart assed PM he sent me.


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## Gologit (Jul 4, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Actually, if you were following any logic whatsoever you would realize that I didn't say that. All I said was that HW had a point... and for Gologit to remember NO WHINNING. I think you both, in some insecure state of paranoia and need to feel potent, jumped to some conclusion that best suited yourselves. Of course that is just and only what I think and I could be wrong so why would and how could a thick skinned tree man be so offended I don't know. It appears that logic is not the forte of such men.



Complaining? Again?


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## treemandan (Jul 4, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Complaining? Again?



Ah, you lived so long, did so much, took so much and all for so little while expecting every one else to do the same ( why if they didn't they would be whiners of course) and now you sit in the heights of your fancy believing that you have something over me. Well go ahead, who I am to stop you?


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## tramp bushler (Jul 5, 2013)

Dan ; take a chill pill, its OK. Nothin to get in a battle about. 
Like I said, you called it right at the start.


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## The Spirit (Jul 5, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Dan ; take a chill pill, its OK. Nothin to get in a battle about.
> Like I said, you called it right at the start.



No, no, The Dan is alright, you're alright, in fact everything is fine... well maybe except fer a certain somebody who has got it in fer The Dan but nevermind as The Dan will overcome such adversity; He cannot be stopped... or at least not yet anyhow.


The Dan wanted me to tell you that He never had a mind to put you down though He was very curious as to what was going on with the Fern Gulley Tree and the tactics thereof. He was certainly impressed with your fortitude but was concerned that you were lacking in other areas. Of course He means no degradation.

And also The Dan wishes to express His sympathy for Gologit and requests a truce as, well, uh, umm, we both have better things to do huh?


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## Gologit (Jul 5, 2013)

The Spirit said:


> No, no, The Dan is alright, you're alright, in fact everything is fine... well maybe except fer a certain somebody who has got it in fer The Dan but nevermind as The Dan will overcome such adversity; He cannot be stopped... or at least not yet anyhow.
> 
> 
> The Dan wanted me to tell you that He never had a mind to put you down though He was very curious as to what was going on with the Fern Gulley Tree and the tactics thereof. He was certainly impressed with your fortitude but was concerned that you were lacking in other areas. Of course He means no degradation.
> ...



Nice try, Dan. Every time you establish a new user ID while you're banned the length of your ban will increase. Better quit while you're ahead.


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## pdqdl (Jul 5, 2013)

Perhaps we should rename this "The Ferngully Smackdown thread"?

Jump in, spout off, and get smacked down, with bonus prizes for double entries!


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## The Dan (Jul 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Nice try, Dan. Every time you establish a new user ID while you're banned the length of your ban will increase. Better quit while you're ahead.



Wonders never cease! And I haven't even called any friends for help yet BUT I WILL. Come on, we don't have to like each other, we can continue to hate each other. What's the big deal? Listen, I promise to leave you alone and won't get upset if you infract me legitimately ( Lord knows I deserve it), you just go on with whatever it is that you do and otherwise leave me alone. Deal? I mean its not going to stop, I am not going away, you can't get rid of me unless you kill me. And really, am I that bad? Think about it. Get some sleep, don't dwell, just let go.

And, once again, I think it unwise to threaten people on a public website like you have just done.


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## The Dan (Jul 5, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> Perhaps we should rename this "The Ferngully Smackdown thread"?
> 
> Jump in, spout off, and get smacked down, with bonus prizes for double entries!



Just for the record: The Dan has NEVER been smacked down... though He is still waiting and in dire need.


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## Gologit (Jul 5, 2013)

The Dan said:


> Just for the record: The Dan has NEVER been smacked down... though He is still waiting and in dire need.



Dan, you need to quit this. If you keep registering with new user names while you're banned eventually you'll be banned for life. Let it go, serve out your ban like everybody else does. The alternative is grim.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 5, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> Perhaps we should rename this "The Ferngully Smackdown thread"?
> 
> Jump in, spout off, and get smacked down, with bonus prizes for double entries!




I gotta stop chewing snoose when reading this site. . Best thing about a smart phone. The screen can be cleaned.


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## pdqdl (Jul 5, 2013)

Snoose?

Some special "Alaska only" sort of snack? Smoked moose jerky taken while they were asleep?


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## HuskStihl (Jul 5, 2013)

Is climbing less dangerous than falling? I do neither for a living, but notice on the fallers part of the site, the pros are always advising leaving trees you feel uncomfortable with alone. How come pro climbers are urging someone who stated he didn't feel safe in a tree to get his but back up there and finish? If so, I'm gonna start climbing. I sick of the pro fallers telling me ####s too dangerous for my newbie self to attempt


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## imagineero (Jul 5, 2013)

I've done both and in my opinion they're equally dangerous but have different hazards. It takes a certain kind of person to do either, but I think climbers are more frequently self taught and more opinionated. There's more opportunity for fallers to receive guidance and mentoring, and I think knowledge is more accessible for fallers. While there's definitely a pride thing with fallers, it's not unheard of to get a hand of another faller, or a second opinion. I think that happens a lot less with climbers. Generally, you're the only climber there, so keeping your head game in place is a big part of climbing. Once you start second guessing yourself as a climber, you'll lose confidence and you won't be any good. For that reason, the climbers that go the furthest are generally the type who think for themselves, have plenty of self confidence, and make their own decisions. Those kinds of guys don't often ask for a second opinion.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 5, 2013)

Good insight, thanks


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## tramp bushler (Jul 5, 2013)

Pdq ; snoose is another word for snuff. Like Copenhagen, ect. 
I'm not too cool with a guy smoking at work because most of the time they want to stop working to smoke. Most loggers chew at work even if they smoke when off work. I like guys to work their ass off. As long as they aren't working against themselves. And I generally flip out if someone wants to stop to smoke. Carpenters and sawmill guys are horrible about it. :what::angry3::beat_brick::beated:
So, I chew. Last year on this job my foreman smoked. He wasn't called back to work. I was given his job and a raise. I'm training 3 young guys how to work. I'm real glad they don't smoke. That's job security for them.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 5, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Is climbing less dangerous than falling? I do neither for a living, but notice on the fallers part of the site, the pros are always advising leaving trees you feel uncomfortable with alone. How come pro climbers are urging someone who stated he didn't feel safe in a tree to get his but back up there and finish? If so, I'm gonna start climbing. I sick of the pro fallers telling me ####s too dangerous for my newbie self to attempt



Actually, you saw most climber's applaud tramp for making the smart decision, and two boneheads trying to make some obscure point. Go back and look, only two guys recommend going back up there. 
And any good climber or faller will always recommend walking away from any tree you don't feel comfortable with. It's a fine line between pushing yourself to the next level and getting in over your head. In my opinion, in this particular situation, Tramp took on what he knew was going to be a challenging tree, hit it hard, learned a few new skills, and when the tree ended up being too sketchy decided to bring a lift in. Good call in my book. Jeff


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## pdqdl (Jul 5, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Pdq ; snoose is another word for snuff. Like Copenhagen, ect. ...



That's what I figured. I couldn't think of any good wise guy comments in that direction, so I went with the snoozin moose concept.


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## Gologit (Jul 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Is climbing less dangerous than falling? I do neither for a living, but notice on the fallers part of the site, the pros are always advising leaving trees you feel uncomfortable with alone. How come pro climbers are urging someone who stated he didn't feel safe in a tree to get his but back up there and finish? If so, I'm gonna start climbing. I sick of the pro fallers telling me ####s too dangerous for my newbie self to attempt



Good question. I think that, depending on the situation, they're both dangerous. Maybe _unforgiving_ would be a better word.

I'm not a technical climber and the only climbing I did was rigging spar trees and lines for pulling trees in the woods. Compared to what the average arborist does every day what I did was kindergarten. My climbing and rigging was simple, theirs can get very complex.

I do know that being a faller is probably not as hard on the body as being a full time climber. You see a lot more old guys still on the saw in the woods than you do old tree climbers. 
Or maybe they were just smart enough to get out before they got ancient.


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## pdqdl (Jul 6, 2013)

I have an old climber in my neighborhood that is somewhere around 75-76 years. He is quite accomplished, and still does big bad trees.

Unlike many climbers, he is quite the gentleman. I consider him the salt of the earth; one of the finest fellows I have ever met. 

Imagineero really summed it up well with respect to the nature of many climbers, but he did not address the why part of the equation. In my opinion, most climbers tend to be risk takers: those individuals that are drawn to excitement and adventure. If a person's very nature cannot accept the terrifying risk associated with swinging from a rope and running a chainsaw, then no amount of money will put them up that tree. 

Unfortunately, those folks that happen to be brought up by their parents to follow the rules and to conform to society's rules tend to be involved with high risk jobs that have more respect; things like policemen, firemen, soldiers, steeplejacks, underwater welders, etc. Those high risk seeking individuals that cannot follow the rules have a tendency to start young while taking risks; this translates frequently to getting in trouble with the law, getting involved with drug & alcohol related activities, and generally being a somewhat anti-social person. Cursed with the desire for excitement, driven by a desire for more money, many of those folks end up being tree climbers; often top-notch ones because they see it as an opportunity to make big money without the education they were unwilling to pursue when they were high-risk teenagers.

Some climbers come from tree climbing families; obviously they are not necessarily drawn into the trade for the same reason. I have also noticed quite a few cops, firemen, and ex-soldiers that have branched out. This, of course, is still part of the risk-taking nature that seems to be an essential element to being a climber.

I think the career model that I described above is not a good description in all communities. I am pretty sure that some parts of the world, tree climbers have a great deal of respect, and young men compete for jobs that might lead to that kind of training and opportunity. Sadly, that isn't the way it works in my area. :sad:


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## imagineero (Jul 6, 2013)

We've got a lot of that sort of climber here too... It's just because there are not so many good climbers around, that if they are any good they can get away with a lot in terms of alcholism, drugs, failure to turn up to work etc. A good climber that can take out big trees is worth a lot to a company, so most are willing to turn their back on quite a bit. 

There are different pathways that people get into this industry by. Some start as groundies and work up to it, some start out straight up as climbers. I kind of think that good climbers are born, not made. You pickup knowledge and skills for sure, but no amount of schooling will ever make someone into a climber if it isn't for them. I think there are 4 skills to be a top climber; the climbing, saw handling (cuts, timing, skill), rigging, and strategy. Strategy is kind of subtle, but you need it on big trees. Deciding what techniques to use, the sequence of dismantling, which parts to drop and which to rig, where to set the rigging, and where to set high points etc. Huge, spreading trees really sort the boys from the men. I find most climbers don't have all 4 skills, but having high skills in 2 will let you have less skills in other areas. If you're a great climber and good with a saw you don't need to rig as often. If you're not a great climber but have creative rigging and good strategy you can work the tree that way etc...

I entered this industry from other roped industries. I started rock climbing in my early teens and got right into it. Over the years I'd been in all sorts of jobs but I was always chasing paid work being on a rope. Little part time jobs kept turning up; mountain rescue, climbing guide, industrial access, window cleaning, taking people abseiling, outward bound style corporate team building etc. They paid well but there was never enough work to make a full time go of it so I kept going back to more mainstream work. I did a years forestry work in new zealand, then I was back in australia again and a fellow rock climber was telling me he got some part time work climbing trees and that it paid well. I looked into it, researched, read up, watched videos, bought some gear, practiced, bought more gear. Took down a couple trees for free for friends, and then started doing it on the side for a bit of cash but still working a full time mainstream job. I started with 2 saws, a harness and ropes, throwline, and a box trailer behind my car. 

Over time I got better, and started making more money. I kept buying more gear over the first couple years; more saws, rigging, got myself certified and insured. Once i was certified I was able to get contract climbing work with other companies which pays reasonably well. I was charging $40/hour at first, and I was a reasonably good climber by that point. Getting those contacts was a big help, some of them were willing to chip for me on my jobs in return for my climbing. contract climbing was hard work though, you know they're only going to call you for the most dangerous biggest hardest most complex trees - otherwise they'd climb it themselves. It's a good way to make money though when you don't really have any big equipment. I was making $50/hour later, then $65. I had a lot of gear by that time though; 6 or 7 saws, friction drum, lots of heavy rigging, heaps of climbing gear, ropes, big shots, etc etc... and I was doing the big trees. If you're discplined about saving money it's a good way to get your own business started. 

I got my first ratty old dump, and did palm jobs with it, or slashed smaller trees into it. That thing sucked ass big time. I think I spent more time fixing it than doing trees! I was out there spannering on that thing till 1am or 2am some days. Kept doing my own jobs whenever I could, getting other guys to chip for me and still doing a bit of contract climbing work. Bought my first decent modern dump couple years back and started to scale back the contract climbing work. Finally bought my first chipper last year, and that was a big step forward for me. It can be a hard slog to save up the money to buy things if you can't or don't want to buy on credit. 

Shaun


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## pdqdl (Jul 6, 2013)

I see that things are not that much different on your side of the planet. It sounds like you were an adrenaline junkie too, except that you started out as one of the guys that could follow the rules.

I seem to run into the rule-breaker variety the most.


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## imagineero (Jul 6, 2013)

There's definitely a perception that rock climbing is an adrenalin sport, but I think that perception is mostly held by those who've never climbed or have just climbed a few times. The rush quickly wears off, and if that was what you were in it for then you're left having to push the limits further and further to keep getting that thrill. People who do it for those reasons don't last long. They end up dead pretty quick, or they are chasing the next rush somewhere else.

I think for most rock climbers there's something more to it. It's like people who surf for a long time, or sail for a long time. There's no bragging rights to it, and nobody is ever going to see that moment. You do it for the beauty of it. For me, it brings an exquisite focus to being, and a pleasant momentum to consciousness. It's a personal and spontaneous form of creation, which can't be held or captured and each instant is lost as soon as it's experienced, never to be had again. Tree work is a little like that too for me. I think all tree climbers have experienced that kind of sensation, where everything else disappears. Some guys call it 'tree time'. Sure is nice to get paid for it too 

Shaun


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## pdqdl (Jul 6, 2013)

That euphoria you are feeling is adrenalin induced. You don't have to be scared to experience it; your body and your subconscious mind knows when you are hanging on a thread. 

I used to get the same sort of experience from high speed on a motorcycle. I wasn't scared, I didn't even get nervous. Nonetheless, it was dangerous, and I was burning the adrenalin candle.

I have never climbed rocks, but I know what climbing for many is all about. Strangely, I really didn't get into tree work because I liked to climb. My customers needed work done, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to make some bucks. It grew from there.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 6, 2013)

I got into climbing and topping because that was part of tower loggin. But, I started climbing a year before I started setting chockers. At first I was terrified but after a while I stopped being so scared. The first tree Itopped was at somewhere around 65' and it was about 12" diameter there. It was a practice tree for speed climbing. I used a 114 Sacks Dolmar with a 20" bar. I was precommercial tree thinning at the time at Francis Cove. Revillagigado Is. ( that's the island Ketchikan is on.)
The 2 nd tree I topped I used a double bit ax and a 4' single man misery whip. . I think it was a Diston.. 
Some may mock this. But it took 3 of us for me to learn how to work in and top timber. All Mighty God, me, and Finley Hays. 
I got a copy of Lies, Logs, and Loggers. From Bailey's . 
All the loggers I knew were to great in their own eyes or too old and busy to help out a young kid from Maine that had just got out of the Coast Guard. And was in the 2 nd lowest rung of workin in the brush. A tree thinner. 
But 1 year later I beat about 10 climbers ringing the bell at 80' at the Ketchikan Timber Show.


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## pdqdl (Jul 6, 2013)

Starting at 65' is a pretty rough way to get in the biz. I presume you were stripping the tree as you went up?

That makes for a pretty shaky spar to be riding for the first time. You must have a whole lot of heart to jump in that way.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 6, 2013)

Actually it was pretty mild. Lots of guys got their start topping spar trees at a hundred to 250' . I think the average in Southeast was around 140 and still 24" diameter or more 

The man that broke me in falling timber. Topped his first tree at 17 years old. A Doug fir in the Darrington Washington area. 42" top diameter. Topped at 240 feet up.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 6, 2013)

And yes, I have stood up on top of a spar tree. . But only one.


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## pdqdl (Jul 6, 2013)

I think I have a poor understanding of how you guys get started.

It would be essential to have quite a few skills in place before anybody could expect to climb that high and not end up dead.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 6, 2013)

It's hard to explain it. 
The world was a different place back then. This was back when everything in the brush was highball. You ran ( not walked) in for your job and out for your life. . Literally. . 
The more dangerous jobs paid more. And we. Lived in a culture of a man WORKED himself to death. That was life. 

Lots of those guys didn't even wear hard hats. By the time my partner started in the brush they had wire core ( fliplines) but not long before that. It was just a length of 4 strand manilla. . When I started climbing I couldn't afford a wirecore climbing rope. ( flipline) . So I used hard lay nylon crab pot line. Watch some of the you tube vids of old time west coast loggin.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)

Well, the Fern Gully tree is now the stump flat stump. :big_smile:


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)

Wrong pic in that one. Try this.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)

That's better. Am I ever glad I didn't keep going up it when I was climbing it. I cut thru a wasps nest when I nipped the top out. And even the good wood was rotten


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)

My fon is acting up today. Oh well .


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jul 13, 2013)

glad you got that little feller down. Is that a picture of you standing next to the pile of wood?


Off subject, hope you dont mind. Been thinking about moving out west or to alaska. Someone was telling me the mosquitos are horrible up there in alaska. Is that true?


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> glad you got that little feller down. Is that a picture of you standing next to the pile of wood?
> 
> 
> Off subject, hope you dont mind. Been thinking about moving out west or to alaska. Someone was telling me the mosquitos are horrible up there in alaska. Is that true?




In some places they can get bad for a short period of time. . But that's just part of summer. Here in Glennallen this year they have been pretty bad but last year not really bad at all. We use bug dope in the summer when working. Butit not like we constantly need it. The Mosquito Magnet is a big seller up here. But I've never owned one. We have 30-40 degree temp swings in the summer from over night low to daytime high. And most bugs and temp dependant. . 
IMO. not that big a deal. Glennallen tends to be known for mosquito s. And Cold winters


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)

32" bar on the 064 . That's the 2 nd block off the top.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 13, 2013)




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## jefflovstrom (Jul 13, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Wrong pic in that one. Try this.



Hey, when are you due?,, girl or boy?,,,
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## Gologit (Jul 13, 2013)

Uh oh. :msp_unsure: I think I'll go check on the fallers. Or something.


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## richard t (Jul 13, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Hey, when are you due?,, girl or boy?,,,
> Jeff :msp_tongue:



Everyone's not a little wimp like you jeff


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## Cedarkerf (Jul 13, 2013)

Edited

This reply is related to how tramp started his climbing career not about this tree. I dont like cotton woods to climb let alone a rotten one.
It might just be a west coast thing but in high school forestry (basically landing rat 101) we were taking 100 ft doug firs out of peoples yard and it wasnt considerd anything extrordinary it was considerd stndard PNW run of the mill school work same as running 045's with 32" bars. I think because logging was so big back then that it was just expected as run of the mill woods work. I can still remember letting my first top go it was the ride of a life time swaying back and forth watch the top taking its time hitting the ground

Fun thread


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## Adamgaspo (Jul 14, 2013)

Cedarkerf said:


> It might just be a west coast thing but in high school forestry (basically landing rat 101) we were taking 100 ft doug firs out of peoples yard and it wasnt considerd anything extrordinary it was considerd stndard PNW run of the mill school work same as running 045's with 32" bars. I think because logging was so big back then that it was just expected as run of the mill woods work. I can still remember letting my first top go it was the ride of a life time swaying back and forth watch the top taking its time hitting the ground
> 
> Fun thread



I agree, climbing to the top of a tree and blowing the top out is easy...really is child's work. Where the job becomes difficult is the aforementioned fgt, standing dead,high risk rigging, etc etc etc. 
As a climber it's your call as to weather you climb the tree or not ( not some jerk off sitting at a computer or even your boss) I've removed standing dead trees and even rigged out of them. But you can be sure that I assessed the tree to the best of my abilities to assure my self that I was taking as little risk as possible for my own safety.
I'm not saying I'm the best climber out there but what I am saying is that I've been climbing for quite some time now and I STILL have all my fingers, arms, legs and can still walk on my own recognizance. 
I applaud your judgement op good job!


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## Cedarkerf (Jul 14, 2013)

Adamgaspo said:


> I agree, climbing to the top of a tree and blowing the top out is easy...really is child's work. Where the job becomes difficult is the aforementioned fgt, standing dead,high risk rigging, etc etc etc.
> As a climber it's your call as to weather you climb the tree or not ( not some jerk off sitting at a computer or even your boss) I've removed standing dead trees and even rigged out of them. But you can be sure that I assessed the tree to the best of my abilities to assure my self that I was taking as little risk as possible for my own safety.
> I'm not saying I'm the best climber out there but what I am saying is that I've been climbing for quite some time now and I STILL have all my fingers, arms, legs and can still walk on my own recognizance.
> I applaud your judgement op good job!


This reply was to Tramps begining of his climbing days and how he learned. I totally agree on the snags and rotten trees.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 14, 2013)

2treeornot2tree said:


> glad you got that little feller down. Is that a picture of you standing next to the pile of wood?
> 
> 
> Off subject, hope you dont mind. Been thinking about moving out west or to alaska. Someone was telling me the mosquitos are horrible up there in alaska. Is that true?




Yup that's me after burning 2 1/2 gallons of saw gas that day. . Used a Zoom Boom with a man basket. I'm standing on the stump there


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## tramp bushler (Jul 14, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Hey, when are you due?,, girl or boy?,,,
> Jeff :msp_tongue:




Ya. I'm a pretty unlikely looking climber. Pretty unlikely looking faller too. But. I'm still doin it. 

I can't figure out how to loose weight without being weak and stupid while I'm doing it.


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## dooby (Jul 15, 2013)

you ain't alone Glenn. 2 yrs. ago i busted my back good. Gained about 40lbs. I didn't need from my cuttin' / in the riggin' weight. I am down to 212 right now and i ain't been easy. Don't feel bad, Sir. when i get done at the end of the day, i got something done. On acct. of guys like you and Gologit, and RandyMac and several others on this site. And puttin' up w/ slackmouth punked kids with cigs hangin' from there mouths has always pissed me off, too. Besides that, Cig smoke is nasty. Don't care who this offends. 

I read this whole thread and i gotta commend you. Great job all the way around. And if it matters to any that don't already know, i am Cutter and Logging climber only. I enjoy learning this arborist side of tree work. I have made a lot of $ over the years taking out hazard trees and have not had any accidents yet but will confess to making $9.00 or less on several jobs cause i just new I could do it for that much. A lot of you guys have learned me up. Thanks- Darby


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## tramp bushler (Jul 16, 2013)

In the end I ended up with a bit less than 15 crew hours on this tree so I was at or less than my bosses target 
And nothing got broken and noone got hurt. . 
I did stop for a trip to the store and got 3 cans of hornet and wasp killer. One for me up in the basket. 1 for the groundies and one for my operator. I didn't want him to have to run away from the controls if I got into a Big nest of them. . 

ie, GET ME DOWN. . NOW!!!!!!!


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## mr. holden wood (Jul 16, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> In the end I ended up with a bit less than 15 crew hours on this tree so I was at or less than my bosses target
> And nothing got broken and noone got hurt. .
> I did stop for a trip to the store and got 3 cans of hornet and wasp killer. One for me up in the basket. 1 for the groundies and one for my operator. I didn't want him to have to run away from the controls if I got into a Big nest of them. .
> 
> ie, GET ME DOWN. . NOW!!!!!!!



I was trying to explain this to you before your boyfriend banned me. This tree was obviouslly going to be a major challenge from the start. You posted a few pages back you put 10 hrs into this before you rented a lift. The profit margin between15 hrs and 5 hrs is huge. In time youll get the hang of this and have a lot less stress and a thicker wallet. Best of luck


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## tramp bushler (Jul 16, 2013)

Actually. With the contract we have. If the tree would have taken another day that would have been just another crew day we would have been paid for. 
This is an hourly rate contract. Not footage ect. I work by the hour also. So Everybody's happy as a clam at high tide. I'm not interested in the competitive bid process. . 
I guess you don't read my posts as I have stated these things a few times already. . 
Oh well.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 16, 2013)

OK. So I went back and Re Read your post 
We didn't rent a lift. Boss just sent one down. 

I'm the tree removal side of a construction company so the boss gots lots of iron.


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