# Natural crotch rigging



## CRN Tree (Apr 4, 2007)

Does anyone have a favorite natural crotch rigging line they like to use on smaller jobs?


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 4, 2007)

Hey CRN, can i ask do you favour natural crotch rigging as opposed to using a block/pulley? If so why?


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## begleytree (Apr 4, 2007)

smaller removals where I need to rope out a few limbs due to clearance, I use a-plex and naturals. 
-Ralph


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## John464 (Apr 4, 2007)

I use true blue, blue streak, and arbor plex. All ropes, climbing and rigging by Samsom.

Doesn't matter if its a small tree or not. I just use shorter hanks of the same stuff I use for the big stuff


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## ropensaddle (Apr 4, 2007)

Up until I went on my own naturals was the only way I rigged
as right of way companies do not supply anything but bare necessities.
Makes me mad they have millions, I didn't even get a porty, had to beg
for a adjustable buckstrap. I now have everything I can afford and buy 
gear as I get extra $ . One of the best naturals I've used was the twist
braid ropes Asplundh supplied they would not heat up as much as plex!
They coiled better also but I use an old plex for limbs now and stable braid
for weight on block. I once had a friend let me use a 100 foot hank of
lariat rope this was a strong, strong rope and did fine natural but tied
poor so i put a snap on for quick fasten!


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## treevet (Apr 5, 2007)

By naturals you guys mean non-synthetic? I climbed for many years on manilla or hemp. It was a damn nice, workable line. Think they found it got heart rot when worked in orchards and around rotting apples or something and you could not notice the slightest defect. I like that black widow skinny stuff for small rigging but I would not use it on rough bark like hackberry crotches. It has 7k tensile but I d be afraid to shock load it too much. It goes w a minny porty. You prob want to have some leather gloves if you re the groundy.


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## CRN Tree (Apr 5, 2007)

*Natural crotch*

Jim1NZ, I use blocks and pulleys but sometimes it's just quicker to butt hitch 
(as I was taught) something down. Only started using blocks a few years ago. I learned from my dad and he did everything natural. I've incorporated the newer stuff into the work overtime. Now he loves the block and pulley's, and the speed line is his favorite. But again sometimes it's quicker to do it natural. Just looking to replace my smaller 1/2 rigging line and see there and many out there that are said to be better for natural crotch rigging. Thanks for the help guys helpful as always.
Nick


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 5, 2007)

treevet said:


> By naturals you guys mean non-synthetic?



He's talking natural crotch vs low friction.

I mix it up depending on where I am in the tree and how much I'm lacing th rope through the canopy. Some times I'll have 3 pullies and 2 carabiners for redirects running through the canopy, thn use a narural crotch to get a tip out quick.

The best thing about using the low friction system is that even with multiple rigging points, the ropeman can easilly pull slack and add tension.

The best thing about natural crotch is that you do not have the extra load multiplier of the block connection, then you can rig on smaller wood. Also you do not have to climb back for the block if the rig point is very high 

I like a double braid for everything, if you glaze the cover you still have core strength. I find that it is as easy to glaze on a friction brake as on a crotch.


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## beezer (Apr 5, 2007)

> The best thing about natural crotch is that you do not have the extra load multiplier of the block connection, then you can rig on smaller wood. Also you do not have to climb back for the block if the rig point is very high




Is this correct? Wouldn't it be the same? Hanging a block through a crotch would have more load multipliers. Or am I wrong?


Beezer


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 5, 2007)

The multiplier will be 2x - angle deflection - friction on lowering(or holding still). But + friction on lifting. When lowering thru friction support/ not pulley; the load leg will bear full load ; the control leg full load - friction. Less friction, more load on support point; unless lifting. 2x of pulley scenario (ignoring friction) still takes both lines in a U or upside down U/ both pairallell to each other to get the 2x.

Distance from load to first major friction on line path; is shock absorbing length; more length giving more shock absorbing. But, if the rope length is longer than it's path (multiple legs on load like a 2/1 etc.); the elasticity/ dynamic absorption is less; because there is less load per leg of support.

For dynamic, ShockLoading rigging; i lean more towards pulleys (bushing not more expen$ive, efficient, delicate bearing type) to absorb shock. But if i can go static, or force static by close to load friction i do that without pulley. 

i like JP's scenario; i like high center friction support, then bring tail close to load and rig off a krab/sling for direction (higher support beefier to carry load while krab gives mostly direction). If i need something to drop free for 15 feet so it doesn't hang up; i place a slipknot on load side of krab to keep slack in load side of that slip knot; before frictions start affecting load. A long sling can also drift rigging point away from sling's anchor. This can be to clear obstacles in air or on ground/ lowering to best 'sweet spot' to make things easiest, quickest and surest.

Pretightening by standard methods is easiest with pulley support; and ground man piggybacks a compression jig inline with the load line. But with friction support; we have them pull inline to stiffen line, then climber draws across /perpendicular to load side of line; then pulls the slack to the control leg ("sweating a line") and the friction of the support then helps maintain that purchase. Climber position is also key for 2/1 tightening of standard rigging line; they are the only position with both legs of lines(load and control) to work with(becomes 4:1 in a 2/1 rig of 2 load legs and 1 control leg; this rig also increases the SWL but lessens it's reciprocal elastic absorption). Line tension is the ballast to the loading; so being able to place more of that ballast in before cutting is very powerful.

Many considerations to these fascinating puzzles; first question for me is static or dynamic loading. And if dynamic, can it be made static loading. i think of rope as a wearable resource. i imagine all the variables as tuning dials on a radio; and try to adjust the inputs for different effects, by varying line type, length, tension, frictions etc.

2 spread support points also give another possible sweating point; even with remote tag line. Also, for very high friction, i might place a RoundTurn on a support; with a remote sweater halfway thru for tightening, able to pull rope up to climber (as climber 'opens' Turn with remote sweater) and easier removal of line.


Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!


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## pmuscato (Apr 5, 2007)

Natural for me, I like the extra friction. I'll double crotch often, natural rigging is faster. As far as rope ware goes when the line starts looking bad I'll retire it. In my mind this is safer then not seeing damage to a line thats been loaded over and over but shows no or little ware. I really like a lot of the new tech. being used today, but when it comes to rigging I like to keep it simple. Starting in the industry in late 70's it's hard to give up the old school ways.


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## beowulf343 (Apr 5, 2007)

pmuscato said:


> Natural for me, I like the extra friction. I'll double crotch often, natural rigging is faster. As far as rope ware goes when the line starts looking bad I'll retire it. In my mind this is safer then not seeing damage to a line thats been loaded over and over but shows no or little ware. I really like a lot of the new tech. being used today, but when it comes to rigging I like to keep it simple. Starting in the industry in late 70's it's hard to give up the old school ways.



Just the opposite for me-started natural with 3 strand. Then learned about blocks and have never looked back. Love my double esterlon. Imo, friction should be applied by the groundie when needed, not by the crotch all the time. Plus the lifespan of my ropes have tripled since using blocks.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 6, 2007)

I employ both, one factor is if have a green groundy I sometimes
would rather rig natural and get wrap up in tree! I have seen new
groundy,s say they understand what I,m explaining about portawrap
but no one wants to look stupid and sometimes may not completely
understand theory! I once explained to a groundy cut a big top out of a 
gum butt around 2 foot diam! Limbs on another tree prevented me 
from seeing what he was doing and told him to lower. This was way
back in my early years early eighties. He instead of giving slack started
taking wraps out was wrapped at base! He got pulled five feet off the
ground before letting go, the top took out a fence but I was so glad
he listened day before to not wrap rope around hands or any part of
his body! I asked him what he was thinking and told him was glad he let go fence can be replaced! That day made me to never assume anyone
has enough sense to handle ropes even when explained in detail!
Has not happened again and I sometimes offend men that do 
understand but everyones safe if I wrap when have doubts on their
abilities.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 6, 2007)

pmuscato said:


> Natural for me, I like the extra friction. I'll double crotch often, natural rigging is faster. As far as rope ware goes when the line starts looking bad I'll retire it. In my mind this is safer then not seeing damage to a line thats been loaded over and over but shows no or little ware. I really like a lot of the new tech. being used today, but when it comes to rigging I like to keep it simple. Starting in the industry in late 70's it's hard to give up the old school ways.


 I understand but some of the new is not so new I was speed lining before
ever saw it in books! The thing is it is better equipment than I had at that
time of doing it, never be afraid of progress some new ways are better and adds professionalism to job site! If we resisted change too much we would still be using axe and crosscut. Work is hard enough I learn new ways I try them then I decide if it,s better, but old school has benefits on some parts and not on others! You never get better if you can,t learn and I will learn until they put me in a pine box.:rockn:


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## treevet (Apr 6, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> I employ both, one factor is if have a green groundy I sometimes
> would rather rig natural and get wrap up in tree! I have seen new
> groundy,s say they understand what I,m explaining about portawrap
> but no one wants to look stupid and sometimes may not completely
> ...



I agree w not assuming they get it. On a big td I often use a strap on and I have a real neat plug in device on my picker. I just see way too much rigging around here than nec. All that .....hey ...take a wrap.....How maaany.... can t heaarrr youuu. Most of the time , esp w one groundy, say 90 % of the time, I m going to go out and one hand slice smaller stuff. After I ve blown out what I can. I m going to hold a 60 pound or so branch and swing toss it, flip it, twist it sideways or whatever guiding it needs to land in the right place. Work one side and groundy is cleaning the other side up not doing all that gut wrenching slow ass lowering. Occassionally if one is over the roof too far to keep from a hard scrape just use the tail of the climbing rope and make a friction device out of stubs you left purposely on the stem. I think the better you get as a td man the less (way less) lowering you re gonna do.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 6, 2007)

treevet said:


> I agree w not assuming they get it. On a big td I often use a strap on and I have a real neat plug in device on my picker. I just see way too much rigging around here than nec. All that .....hey ...take a wrap.....How maaany.... can t heaarrr youuu. Most of the time , esp w one groundy, say 90 % of the time, I m going to go out and one hand slice smaller stuff. After I ve blown out what I can. I m going to hold a 60 pound or so branch and swing toss it, flip it, twist it sideways or whatever guiding it needs to land in the right place. Work one side and groundy is cleaning the other side up not doing all that gut wrenching slow ass lowering. Occassionally if one is over the roof too far to keep from a hard scrape just use the tail of the climbing rope and make a friction device out of stubs you left purposely on the stem. I think the better you get as a td man the less (way less) lowering you re gonna do.


 I couldn,t agree more I now take small until can fall; the major accidents usually happen taking too much at once. I would rather climb high taking down smaller pieces than rig big stuff anymore. Or at least until I get to bucket height if bucket can get to it lol. I would rather repair divots than have my weight on them spurs when blocking! I sometimes use my deer stand to block down chunks but buck in! Cut a block set saw on butt long lanyard come down 2 foot cut another! This is easier on shins and ankles my feet curl in from climbing and wear boots out quick,years on spurs will do this, powerline work climbing with spurs instead of body thrusting!! You get easier as you get
older and use ladders, buckets etc. Them spurs stink when you get to blocking trunk didn't notice it near as bad when was younger:lifter: :lifter: :lifter:


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## Highclimber OR (Apr 6, 2007)

I stick with True- Blue, or maybe some Arborplex, especially on something small.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 6, 2007)

CRN Tree said:


> Jim1NZ, I use blocks and pulleys but sometimes it's just quicker to butt hitch
> (as I was taught) something down. Only started using blocks a few years ago. I learned from my dad and he did everything natural. I've incorporated the newer stuff into the work overtime. Now he loves the block and pulley's, and the speed line is his favorite. But again sometimes it's quicker to do it natural. Just looking to replace my smaller 1/2 rigging line and see there and many out there that are said to be better for natural crotch rigging. Thanks for the help guys helpful as always.
> Nick



Nick, sounds like you go it sorted mate


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## alanarbor (Apr 6, 2007)

The trusty old three strand is best for natural crotch rigging IMO. It's inexpensive, so if you use and abuse it (and natural crotch rigging is abusive)replacement dosen't hurt the wallet so much.


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## CRN Tree (Apr 6, 2007)

Thanks guys lots of info, all of it useful.


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## jmack (Apr 6, 2007)

treevet said:


> By naturals you guys mean non-synthetic? I climbed for many years on manilla or hemp. It was a damn nice, workable line. Think they found it got heart rot when worked in orchards and around rotting apples or something and you could not notice the slightest defect. I like that black widow skinny stuff for small rigging but I would not use it on rough bark like hackberry crotches. It has 7k tensile but I d be afraid to shock load it too much. It goes w a minny porty. You prob want to have some leather gloves if you re the groundy.


holy hemp!


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## jmack (Apr 6, 2007)

CRN Tree said:


> Does anyone have a favorite natural crotch rigging line they like to use on smaller jobs?


3 strand for natural crotching i like all gears husky rope


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## adam (Apr 6, 2007)

*hemp gear*

and nice hardhat.


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## treevet (Apr 6, 2007)

Adam, if dude s installing a swing , the backswing should work but the return may be a bit painful. Neat picture. Elaborate?


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## Boa07 (Apr 6, 2007)

Adam, I'm with Treevet tell us more about the photo, looks kinda like he's cutting a new buckstrap from the bark of the tree?


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## adam (Apr 6, 2007)

*leziwo*

This is not a bad word, just polish name for a very old climbing gear, known from middle ages and used by beekeepers, who installed beehives in natural cavities in tree trunks or carved them with special tools. They were very important (no sugar and lightbulbs back then, just honey and wax candles!), as the whole trade was generating more profit than timber production in the crown forests. Picture shows one of those important guys at work.


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## treevet (Apr 6, 2007)

In other words, and you can see the chips flying, he is putting a cavity in the tree.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2007)

adam said:


> This is not a bad word, just polish name for a very old climbing gear, known from middle ages and used by beekeepers, who installed beehives in natural cavities in tree trunks or carved them with special tools. They were very important (no sugar and lightbulbs back then, just honey and wax candles!), as the whole trade was generating more profit than timber production in the crown forests. Picture shows one of those important guys at work.



Are you an apiarist?


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## adam (Apr 7, 2007)

I am not an apiarist! I don't use hemp! I use natural crotches only!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2007)

adam said:


> I am not an apiarist! I don't use hemp! I use natural crotches only!



Ummm, was there a smiley in there? An apiarist is a bee keeper who know what he is doing. 

Like an arborist is a tree worker...


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## adam (Apr 7, 2007)

Agrilist would be an EAB guy and Vesparist maybe somebody posting stingy comments? If they know, what they are doing of course.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 7, 2007)

adam said:


> Agrilist would be an EAB guy and Vesparist maybe somebody posting stingy comments? If they know, what they are doing of course.



Doesn't the Vesparist repair scooters?


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## adam (Apr 8, 2007)

Only in Italy. It's drifting further and further from original naturafurcaristic (pardon my french) topic. I think, they are also called Vesparians in Jamaica, but only if they know what they are doing.


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