# white pine



## yooper (Feb 13, 2007)

hi john, I see in one of the threads you mention measuring trees in the porkies,I grew up and still live a few miles from the porkies last year one of the rangers mentioned to me that there big white pine had fallen and was wondering if it is the same tree that you where talking about? I included a photo of another tree close to here in White Pine Mi. about 10 miles from the porkies and was wondering if ya ever checked out this one on your trips up this way?its behind the old hospital in White Pine.
View attachment 45334


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks my friend. That was not my writing, though, it was a series of emails by another "big tree hunter".

Though if you want to measure it or any other trees, you could contact Ian in Madison. I don't think the DNR would hold being a yooper against you in loaing the gear


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## yooper (Feb 13, 2007)

I will have to bring the tape out there this spring while I'm mushroom hunting.
I have visited that tree every year since i was probably 10 and that was back in 1980 from what Iv heard from the dnr it is supposed to be ether 2nd or 3rd in Mi. thanks yooper


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## Paul J. (Feb 13, 2007)

*Porkypines*

That pine looks like one of those near the upper Big Carp River just past the cross-country ski trails off the Government Peak trailhead. Is that where it is? The pine that I was talking about is bigger and was off the Little Carp River straight in off the South Boundary Road, I think just west of Wabeno Creek. It was about 150' tall but lost about 50' off the top when summer storms hit it a few years ago. I've attached pictures of my dad with it and with some other pines upstream. I've also attached a picture of a 4'+ dbh white cedar in the park. I've reduced the resolution of the images for faster downloads...

Paul J.


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## Paul J. (Feb 13, 2007)

*non-Porkypines*

I should have read your message more closely. You said that the tree was outside the Porkies. No I haven't seen it. Are you aware of a big pine in Wakefield township off the road to the town dump near the Presque Isle River near the well marked National Forest boundary? Someone told me about it once but I could never find it. They said it was the biggest pine that they have ever seen and they passed it every time they went fishing there.

Paul J.


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## yooper (Feb 13, 2007)

Hi Paul,
wow great its been a while since iv seen them trees!!! i love the big trees of the porkies! it has so many.
the tree i posted is in the town of White Pine, 6 miles south of Silver City.White Pine is on M-64(the town with the 1000 foot smoke stack)
I will have to get ahold of Bob Sprague from the park and ask him if the tree you posted the photo of is the one that fell he is so very knowledgble about this area.
When i get a chance to i will get a dbh mesurment of the tree, in the photo we are on the top hillside of the tree, the bottom is about 5 to 6 feet below us so should the dbh measurment be at ground level at the top side of the hill?
as for the hight of the tree im not sure. It's in a revaine and towers above everything else. 
If you are ever in the area feel free to get ahold of me ahead of time ill be more than happy to bring you out there its only about an eighth mile walk to it from town. My business telephone number is in the Ontonagon telephone company book under Out Back Tree Service. they do have a web sight 
I appreciate your intrest happy tree hunting Dennis Dhooge....(yooper)


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 14, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Though if you want to measure it or any other trees, you could contact Ian in Madison. I don't think the DNR would hold being a yooper against you in loaing the gear



Oops, my bad. I was not reading close enough. I thought you were coming into WI.

I know Sean would love to help you measure some trees, especially if you showed him some of your morel spots 

I keep telling him to sign up as mycophage.


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## Paul J. (Feb 14, 2007)

*Yooper Pines*

Dennis,

Robert Sprague is the one that rediscovered the last national champion white pine from the Porkies. Over 30 years ago, we were directed to it by the Porkies employee who I believe found the previous national champion there. We have an old slide of my dad and brothers next to it with the two smaller pines on the slope behind it. The trail used to run near it but it now crosses the river downstream, even though the old trail crossing marker at the river is still in line with the pine. I believe that Bob, or another park employee named Jim, found my GPS when I left it near the pine while measuring several years ago. 

I'll be tree hunting in the Porkies the first weekend in May, so I may call you if I have time....

Paul J.


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## yooper (Feb 22, 2007)

Ran into bob this morning at the park H.Q. asked about some trees and it was the big one that fell.(champ) he also remembers finding the gps, he told me that he found another dandy out by mere lake and had gps numbers for it might be one ya may want to look at. happy hunting D.D.


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## Paul J. (Mar 5, 2007)

*Porkypines*

Thanks for the info. I'll have to get in contact with him about the new pine. Lee Frelich, the gentleman in the picture of the 4' dbh cedar that I posted, and I were looking around Mirror Lake a couple of years ago for a big white pine that we both remembered from about 20-25 years ago when we both were much younger, but neither could remember exactly where it was. It sounds like Bob Sprague may have found it or a new one. By the way, if you look in the background of the cedar picture, you might notice that there are other 4' dbh cedars lying on the ground!!!


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## yooper (Mar 8, 2007)

Glad to see ya got the info. Paul. Infact i did notice the other's in the back ground when I seen the photos, Just hated to say how much id love to haul em back to have sawed up on a mill. Some trees, like them, just need to let be!


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## M.D. Vaden (Mar 11, 2007)

You folks remind me of some of us folks who hunt for mushrooms in the woods  

The main difference being the size.

Did you ever see the photo of the massive morel that someone found in southern Oregon?

Absolutely enormous - almost freaky looking.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 11, 2007)

I've heard that the Grifolia get so big you need a wheel barrel to get them to the truck! 

:jawdrop:

Here they get maybe hatbox size


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## yooper (Mar 12, 2007)

No I haven't seen nor heard of that morel, the biggest I have seen on my property is probably fist size (the cap) but they are far and few between. Mostly small ones there. I get allot of little ones though. I picked a buffball a couple years ago darn near a foot and a half tall. wish I took a photo of it. I remember as a kid kicking em like footballs not knowing how many people thought they where so delicious. although i still cant pass one by with spores and give it a stomp. Me I pass on eating the shrooms I just hunt and Pick em for the wife and kids.


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## Paul J. (May 15, 2007)

*Porkies Pine*

Dennis,

My timing didn't work out to meet up with you, maybe next time... but I did talk to Bob at the Porkies and got directions to the bigger pine that he found. I've attached a picture of it. The tree was pretty easy to find. I took an out of the way back way to it and found several other 11-12' girth pines with heights of 90-126' on the way to the ones that Bob found. I also found one of the parks taller hemlocks, 112' tall while only 9.6' in girth. I also passed through a cool sphagnum bog with a high density of pitcher plants, so many that you almost couldn't step on them. I don't recall seeing anything like that in the Porkies before, although I've seen it elsewhere in the area.

Bob's biggest white pine tree in the area measured 121' tall and 15.7' in girth. The girth measurements taken of it will vary due to it's taper, but I followed the "from where the seed sprouted rule" imposed upon me by members of American Forest's standards/rules committee, including the late director of the State of Maryland's champion tree program. It was height limited because of it's solo emergent supercanopy status in a stand of low statured hardwoods, primarily maple, if I recall correctly. I would have taken spread measurements but the black flies were absolutely terrible there and I didn't have any insect repellent with me.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 16, 2007)

Paul J. said:


> It was height limited because of it's solo emergent supercanopy status



Define that one for me, I've not heard it before. Sounds like it grew up in a stand and did not start to spread till it got real tall.


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## Paul J. (May 16, 2007)

*emergent*

John,

What I meant is that the tree was a solitary or stand-alone pine that emerges well above the surrounding canopy. I've attached another photo to show this. The big pine is on the right. Another 120' range pine with half the diameter is on the left. It is an optical illusion of the photo angle with respect to the forest edge that makes it appear that the hardwoods are taller to the rigth. 

The pines in this area are typically separated by 100-400 yards and extend at least a mile to the southwest. They are located in a relatively flat area with little topographical variation, so there is no uphill overshadowing by neigboring trees to drive adjacent trees higher to reach sunlight. Additionally, there are no dense pine groves to drive heights any higher due to competition. The pines are located in a sugar/red maple forest that is stunted and distorted with some ironwood (hophornbeam). At the ground level, most maples, poles or saplings, are bent, crooked, or even horizontal from lake effect snow load. This can be seen to some extent in the photo in my original post. A friend of mine jokes that they are a new species, Acer horizontalis. The pines seem to handle the snow load much better and emerge well above the maples, while the maples NEVER achieve a size that one would expect in a virgin, old growth, or primary forest. 

This area receives an extremely large amount of snow since it is in the Lake Superior snow belt. It is just far enough inland to receive snow while the lakeshore area receives rain in early spring and late fall. It is just close enough to the lake to receive extremely large amounts of snow. There are no weather stations in the immediate area, but it is probably higher than areas similar distances from the lake up and down the shore because of the effects of the Porcupine Mountains nearby. Because of these characteristics in this area just northeast of Mirror Lake, we didn't spend much time big tree hunting here in the past due to the diminished height potential in this area. However, the large girths might make up for it.

By contrast, pines in northeast central Wisconsin in similar forest routinely exceed 130 feet such as in the Cathedral Pines and Giant Pine Grove in the Nicolet National Forest. The only major differences are lower latitude coordinates, slightly lower altitude, and much less annual snow load. In the Cathedral Pines, a couple trees reach 150' with good form. Some of them also used to have trunk lengths exceeding 160' but had horizontal, bent over tops due to snow loading, partially because of excessive height to diameter ratio due to increased competition from very tall maples that don't suffer any significant lake effect snow loads. Most of these examples of extremely long, bent top trees have fallen in recent years.

Hopefully, I haven't rambled on too much...


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 17, 2007)

I would be a pot to your kettle if accusing of rambling...

My assumption of *supercanopy* from context was correct, and you explained it well.

Are the broken trees just due to snow load, or a result of weather and thinning/clearing operations? re-Matthecks stem hight ratio for failure after clearing. (1:30 nominal-1:50 critical)


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## Paul J. (May 17, 2007)

*snow loads*

The area is virgin forest that has never been cut. It is miles from an area that was salvage logged after a blowdown in the 1950's and is several miles in the other direction from an area that was selectively cut. It is true virgin forest. The only cutting element in the area is the presence of beaver in the adjacent wet meadow, although there is no sign of beaver cutting in the forest around this pine. The form effects are likely all due to weather: ice and snow.


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## yooper (May 19, 2007)

Snow fall here sometimes exceeds 400 in annually so I'm sure its the culprit. 
Paul I'm glad to hear Bob pointed out them trees to you. I haven't been up in that area this year. I do have a contract making glade ski runs on the ski hill side of the mountain. It was logged in the early 1900 there are allot of big maples in that area but nothing overly huge. I did find a few very big horse shoes from the early logging operations. There is over 100 acers of glade area so I'm sure ill find some neat things up there.


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## yooper (May 19, 2007)

*Paul J.*

Please always feel free to contact me any time you come up this way if you want any information on the big pine in White Pine.


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## mooseye (May 14, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> You folks remind me of some of us folks who hunt for mushrooms in the woods
> 
> The main difference being the size.
> 
> ...



found this on our hunting land here in south east Tennessee.


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