# Hardwood logging, select vs clear-cut



## Wishie22 (Sep 14, 2009)

What will yield better future harvests, clear-cutting or select logging and why? I guess I am looking for the pros and cons to them with creating future prime logs. Do species genetics play a part and what is the best way to grow the best wood?

If there is literature on it, I would be happy to be pointed in that direction.

Thank you.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Sep 14, 2009)

Clear cutting hardwood rarely ends with good results. There is individual tree genetics as well as species habits that have a large part of what will grow on the site. If you remove everything then the seed source will be scarce, the micro climate altered and often you will have some sort of site conversion (often to aspen in this region). 

Right now if you select out the worst quality trees down to some target stocking level, and leave the best trees to grow and regenerate into the future it will most likely yield the best results. Opening small gaps offers a chance for current shade tolerant understory species (Hard maple in this region) to be released and reach the canopy, as well as enough light in areas to get shade intolerants to grow.

I would look for a consulting forester in your area and discuss options and management plans with him.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 14, 2009)

Without rewriting the book, I am going to open you to some concepts you should look in to.
1. What is there, are there good trees present with good future volume/value growth?

2. What is the potential producitvity of the site?

3. What species mix do you want to grow? 

4. What are the regeneration demands of these species?

5. How many acres are under management? Are there other mgmt objectives other than timber?

6. How often do you want to create timber revenue off this site- every 10 yrs., 25 yrs., 60yrs.? How often do you really want those skid trails opened back up to wash dirt into your neighbor's creek? And, the less taken per harvest, the higher the $/ton it costs the logger to harvest, less $ for you.

And just to point out differences in different locations, on a north or east facing cove where the timber is over 120' tall and heavy to shade intollerant species like white oak and poplar, the timber is already even aged and economically and in some cases biologically mature or even over-mature (in decline) damn right I'm gonna clearcut. Take a southwesterly convex slope on the same moun tain heavy to chestnut oak and junk- not a productive site, way better to go with an uneven aged regime and emphasize these locations for your other mgmt objectives.

Also, if you just keep on doing tsi (timber stand improvement) at some point you will get an even aged stand good for nothing but a clearcut. If you don't want it clearcut, ever, then make sure you get your regen going before the last of the current stand is up for harvest.

i.e. get more than one opinion. The state dnr folks, extension folks, etc are free, and without $ motivations, although some can have alterior (sp?) motives of there own.....

Have fun, remember silviculture is the science and ART of forest mgmt.


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## kkottemann (Sep 14, 2009)

good response hammer!

I say thin undeseriable stems/species until you have a stand of genetically dominate timber. Now your seed source is more desirable. By thining the stand and mabe even thinning based on crown class you will create what I learned to be called filtered light. this is simply a forest floor which has light part of the day. Now I am not sure about up there, but filtered light is ideal for the establishment of saplings down here (south louisiana). once this is established now you are dealing with un-evenage management. This is the ideal situation for a truly sustaniable forest...timber production, food/cover for wildlife and sound forestry practice. I'll try and post some pics of the result of this method.....of course you can throw all that out the window when hurricanes hit you year after year...might as well be a wheat farmer!


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## 371groundie (Sep 16, 2009)

hire a forester. let him run the paint gun, you run the chainsaw. its worth it in the long run.


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## 056 kid (Sep 16, 2009)

If you arent going to scalp it, you have to know how to cut. Otherwise yolu will end up with a bunch of beat up trash trees standing around that will die and get blown down.


If you can throw em where you want em, you got a chance...


I did a clear cut 3 summers ago, mostly hardwood pulp. there where some big pops, oaks,, and white pines, but mostly ####ty hardwood pulp & tie logs.

I was up there a few months ago and I noticed that the fast growing poplars where taking over even though there werent very many poplars cut. not nearly the volume of red and white oaks...


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## slowp (Sep 16, 2009)

The forester with the paint can needs to figure out which ones will hit the ground, not necessarily the land owner. Then the fallers need to be checked out. 

Although I like to work with people power, in thinnings, a feller buncher or processor is often the best way to get limb locked trees on the ground with the least amount of damage. Once again, a good operator is a must.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Sep 16, 2009)

056 kid said:


> I was up there a few months ago and I noticed that the fast growing poplars where taking over even though there werent very many poplars cut. not nearly the volume of red and white oaks...



Up here you can have a stand with less than 10% of the total volume in trembling aspen, clear cut it and you will have nothing but aspen regeneration.


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## 056 kid (Sep 16, 2009)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> Up here you can have a stand with less than 10% of the total volume in trembling aspen, clear cut it and you will have nothing but aspen regeneration.



I have never spent any time in the mid north west(what I call it) but I have always wonderd what a mature forest looks like up there. 

G-pa had a place close to Meeker CO. that he made a *BUNDLE* On Quakers about 7 years back.

I loved thoes trees, just because of my surroundings. My great Fam, the sweet Colorado air, herds of 500+ elk, . herds of 200+ mule deer,

And LOTS of stupid ground squirrels!!!! Seeing the Quakers made me happy..







Gramps told me that thoes Quakers grow somthing like weeds...


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## Mike Van (Sep 17, 2009)

Here in Ct., take a look at some of the no longer used farmland just to see what grows back. It sucks. Honeysuckle, barbaries & multi floral rose to start out. Usually followed by some junky white birch or red cedar, then some more "invasive" trees like locust, poplar, etc. I think you're much better off to have a forester look at the site before you even think about clear cutting.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 17, 2009)

primary succession in an abandoned field is in no way representative of forest regeneration from an opening or clearcut.


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## 380LGR (Sep 17, 2009)

It also depends on what you have now for timber quality. If you have junk now thinning it isnt going to make it better you will just have bigger junk.


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## Meadow Beaver (Sep 18, 2009)

Select cutting and thinning are more likely to yield more profitable harvests. Clear cutting (on the East coast) will take along time for the trees to grow back to the point when they're prime-x or veneer grade. Here's a common example, firewood cutters go out in the woods and thin out the trees, and if they cut too many or clear out spots, the light comes through the canopy and branches start to grow lower on the trunk. Branches lower on the trunk= Less money


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## 2dogs (Sep 18, 2009)

Is the property in question currently a wild forest, a tree farm, or somwhere in between? What do you want your land to be able to do besides growing timber for harvest? A tree farm is not a forest and requires pre-commercial thinnings, thinnings, and harvest (clear cut). Afterwards you will have an even aged stand of low diversity. You may need to spray for insects that would normally be controlled by the small animals that lived there before the harvest. Decay will be slowed and fertilizer may be needed. A fire can wipe out your entire crop.

If you high grade the site, ie harvest the best trees, as has been pointed out you will end up with tall trees of little or no value. Your regeneration by seed (after your next harvest) will be from the worst trees on your lot. Leave trees will likely be damaged too making them worth less.

Hopefully a forester will be able to help you make the right chioce.

This may help...http://bugwood.org/


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## sesmith (Sep 18, 2009)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> If you remove everything then the seed source will be scarce,
> I would look for a consulting forester in your area and discuss options and management plans with him.



Excellent advise. No one here knows what your site looks like. In some cases, such as a site with a lot of diseased beech in it, a clear cut might be warranted. In most cases, in the northeast, at least, no. Keep in mind also, that regeneration of desirable species is difficult in the northeast due to our large (and hungry) deer herd. It would be in your best interest to have a private consulting forester look at your land and write up a long term management plan with your best interests in mind. Your state forester may be a good start.


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## RRSsawshop (Sep 18, 2009)

slowp said:


> The forester with the paint can needs to figure out which ones will hit the ground, not necessarily the land owner. Then the fallers need to be checked out.
> 
> Although I like to work with people power, in thinnings, a feller buncher or processor is often the best way to get limb locked trees on the ground with the least amount of damage. Once again, a good operator is a must.



:agree2: 100%


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## Mike Van (Sep 19, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> primary succession in an abandoned field is in no way representative of forest regeneration from an opening or clearcut.



I could show you more than a few places up here where it is exactly the same. There were hundreds of acres of red pine clear cut in the early 70's, what has grown back on it's own is trash. One place they hydro axed around 1990 & replanted with seedlings. The deer loved them. Now it's gone back to trash again. A few failed road jobs & subdivisions too that where cut out of the woods and abandoned. Up here anyway, trash trees rule.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 19, 2009)

Mike Van said:


> I could show you more than a few places up here where it is exactly the same. There were hundreds of acres of red pine clear cut in the early 70's, what has grown back on it's own is trash. One place they hydro axed around 1990 & replanted with seedlings. The deer loved them. Now it's gone back to trash again. A few failed road jobs & subdivisions too that where cut out of the woods and abandoned. Up here anyway, trash trees rule.



Interesting, and I believe you. Regional info VERY important. Sounds like your area demands uneven aged mgmt.- very well. I guess thats one reason why your logging up there tends toward such small scale stuff too as you're really getting very low tons/acre (mbf/acre, whatever). Thats the style I started out falling for but down here it seems to slip into a high grade really easily. We're not big clearcutters, but we'll open her up where appropriate. All depends on whats there, and what could be there.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 19, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Select cutting and thinning are more likely to yield more profitable harvests. Clear cutting (on the East coast) will take along time for the trees to grow back to the point when they're prime-x or veneer grade. Here's a common example, firewood cutters go out in the woods and thin out the trees, and if they cut too many or clear out spots, the light comes through the canopy and branches start to grow lower on the trunk. Branches lower on the trunk= Less money



Except in your more highly productive sites. But, these are valid points that we all have to deal with when deciding how to cut a tract. When you make an opening or small clearcut, the regen grows tall and straight as it is growing up with all the other regen, competing for light. Mother nature can thin this regen out, or you can speed up the process with one or two mid-rotation thinnings. You get better faster height growth from an opening, and since they are all growing, they shade each others trunk producing limb free stems. That brings me to our shelterwoods. Actually, usually modified shelterwoods. We do this on our moderate sigtges heavier to oak/hickory, not our soft hardwoods. We leave about 20 prime trees per acre, co-dominant or dominant, usually about 17" dbh, good form, stem taper, etc. But that leaves planty of light for regen of our shade intolerant timber species. In 30 yrs., thin the regen and fell the leave trees. Yes, epicormic branching is a problem. But, you can leave supressed junk or understory around your leave trees to keep shade on the trunk of the leave trees, or you can hope that the epicromic branches will be shaded out by 20 yrs and grade is restored by yr. 30 as the bark grows over the little things. Aint easy, lots to think about.

Not to say ya'll would be interested in shleterwoods as thats going into an even aged regime, just talking shop.....


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## Wishie22 (Sep 26, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Except in your more highly productive sites. But, these are valid points that we all have to deal with when deciding how to cut a tract. When you make an opening or small clearcut, the regen grows tall and straight as it is growing up with all the other regen, competing for light. Mother nature can thin this regen out, or you can speed up the process with one or two mid-rotation thinnings. You get better faster height growth from an opening, and since they are all growing, they shade each others trunk producing limb free stems. That brings me to our shelterwoods. Actually, usually modified shelterwoods. We do this on our moderate sigtges heavier to oak/hickory, not our soft hardwoods. We leave about 20 prime trees per acre, co-dominant or dominant, usually about 17" dbh, good form, stem taper, etc. But that leaves planty of light for regen of our shade intolerant timber species. In 30 yrs., thin the regen and fell the leave trees. Yes, epicormic branching is a problem. But, you can leave supressed junk or understory around your leave trees to keep shade on the trunk of the leave trees, or you can hope that the epicromic branches will be shaded out by 20 yrs and grade is restored by yr. 30 as the bark grows over the little things. Aint easy, lots to think about.
> 
> Not to say ya'll would be interested in shleterwoods as thats going into an even aged regime, just talking shop.....



This is exactly why I asked the question, each have pros and cons.

Clearcutting - timber grows taller faster with less lower branches creating prime lumber trunks. Selective - cuts prime lumber out leaving standing timber to mature (sometimes allowing lower limbs to grow and mature). 

Old farm fields take time to regenerate, this is earth that has been plowed over, harvested on and no longer a forest base. House lots areas can be even stripped of topsoil. With out any desired species to regenerate, natures process will take longer for trees to propagate. Your faster growing matter will be invasive - weeds to rose bushes & brush to faster growing trees (whatever may be close and seeded by animals or wind), as Mike Van mentioned. 

It seems as though a well managed area (selective cutting and weeding unwanted timber) is the only way to create a area that will insure good quality timber. Working with a neighbor on this method, cleaning out his land of undesired material, creating firewood for the homes. 

Others let nature take its natural coarse, I see sumac, popular, and other undesired trees growing. 

Worked on some jobs were we clearcut for farms and it raised this question of what is better. I feel selective is with tolerance of leaving healthy timber to inspire prime regrowth. 

It also comes down to the landowner.


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## floyd (Sep 27, 2009)

Uneven age mgmt. Worst first. Low return now but building a savings account for your children.

Hire a forester, you will be $ ahead in the long run.

Maintain the roads you build for future use.


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## Curlycherry1 (Sep 27, 2009)

I drove by a state forest over in WI a few years ago that was clear cut hard maple/birch/beech forest. It was harvested over 30+years ago and there was nothing growin in that area. I later heard they call it the "Charlie Brown Forest" because every tree growing is a pathetic looking stub of a tree. If you do some looking online you might be able to find out about it. The state admits it was the biggest forestry mistake they ever made. The basically ruined tens of thousands of acres of forest forever.

I worked for a long time in NY on managed forests and they were some of the best looking wood I had ever seen. Typically a 10 year cycle where the logs are selectively cut (~15-25% tops) and then afterwords the culls were taken out for firewood. After a cut the remaining trees would explode in growth and put on massive height and diameter in short order. For a hardwood forest, selective cutting is the only way to go.

Do some reading on forest succession and you will find all kinds of information about how forests have to go through a normal progression for each kind of wood. Upset that balance and the forsest has to start from scratch with poplar/pine.


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## 2dogs (Sep 27, 2009)

Wishie22 said:


> This is exactly why I asked the question, each have pros and cons.
> 
> Clearcutting - timber grows taller faster with less lower branches creating prime lumber trunks. Selective - cuts prime lumber out leaving standing timber to mature (sometimes allowing lower limbs to grow and mature).
> 
> ...



You are lumping tree farms and forests into the same category by comparing them. You have to determine what you want before you begin a management plan. A tree farm suports a limited eco system. In the west what is undisireable to a tree farm may be just what sustains small animals the forest needs to grow healthy trees that mature in a natural form.


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## woodsrunner (Sep 27, 2009)

floyd said:


> Uneven age mgmt. Worst first. Low return now but building a savings account for your children.
> 
> Hire a forester, you will be $ ahead in the long run.
> 
> Maintain the roads you build for future use.



:agree2:

Where my timber is we are still battling the effects of "high grading". That's taking the good and leaving the junk. Guess what those junk trees don't get better. By junk i mean small stuff that was small 50 years ago and is still small today. I cut a little ash one day (about 6 or 8 inches at the butt) that had fallen across a trail and counted the rings. it was dang near 100 years old!

Hire a forester. He or she will help you alot more than he/she will cost you and they can bring good regional info to your management strategy.

Scott


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## 056 kid (Sep 27, 2009)

woodsrunner said:


> :agree2:
> 
> Where my timber is we are still battling the effects of "high grading". That's taking the good and leaving the junk. Guess what those junk trees don't get better. By junk i mean small stuff that was small 50 years ago and is still small today. I cut a little ash one day (about 6 or 8 inches at the butt) that had fallen across a trail and counted the rings. it was dang near 100 years old!
> 
> ...



I cut abunch of government timber near Covington VA that was like that.

Along the top of a long ridge where small 5 to 12'' diameter/30 to 50 foot tall chesnut & red oaks that you needed a microscope to count the rings.

on other parts of that same ridge where some BEAUTY reds!


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## Wishie22 (Sep 28, 2009)

2dogs said:


> You are lumping tree farms and forests into the same category by comparing them. You have to determine what you want before you begin a management plan. A tree farm suports a limited eco system. In the west what is undisireable to a tree farm may be just what sustains small animals the forest needs to grow healthy trees that mature in a natural form.



When I think of a tree farm, I think of an area that has one type of specimen growing. I know what your referring to regarding natural wildlife, tree farms can seem baron or empty compared to a natural forest. 

When I am referring to a well managed area I am thinking of a area that has a variety of species that are timber of healthy quality. Trees can choke each other out of water, minerals, sunlight, CO2, etc. Allowing a tree room with less competition can inspire better conditions.

A squirrel burying its bounty of nuts, can also be planting the next generation of hardwood timber. Providing the seedlings make it past deer feeding, rutting, and other creatures that eat the young seedlings. Each forest creature add and spreading out nutrients for established timber to reap (once it renters the soil). 

In Australia an Emu is a vital seeder, I forget the species they are vital to. It is also interesting how some species need forest fires to reseed. Forest fires naturally happen and in areas vital to a forest eco system (carbon to seeding).


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