# Get to the top!



## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

Have ya ever noticed? Rookies doing trims or TD's never seem to tie in at a logical point? Instead of getting to the tippy-top and going from there they stop half-way, fumble around, and are less productive?

Your tie in point is _most important_ when it involves how you move about in the tree. You have to think _at least_ three moves ahead of what you're doing _now,_ and follow through.

I could go on...


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

It's like I've said before. Climbing efficiently is like making a chess move, not checkers. Plan your climb, then climb yur plan...

Butt, don't be askeered to make changes on the fly!


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

i am just learning the ropes.....  anyways so what your saying is best way to do a removal is to get to the top, tie in, then descend to remove everything? i've seen my partner/trainer do it that way but he did take out some limbs on the way up


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

tinman44 said:


> i am just learning the ropes.....  anyways so what your saying is best way to do a removal is to get to the top, tie in, then descend to remove everything? i've seen my partner/trainer do it that way but he did take out some limbs on the way up



Just get to the top, and do what ya wanna as ya do it. It's all downhill after that...


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

way i figure get up to the top since its coming down too, remove limbs you can and make a control path down the when your getting the stump down you can drop branches then course i would be wearing gaffs so, question for you mb when your bringing down the logs, you tie in twice (i'm sure) you use your scare-strap/buckstrap/flipline whatever you call it, do you also tie in with a lifeline? and how do you create a false crotch? do you use the friction saver and prusik? or what?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

That's a lotta questions, Tinman.


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

so what are you saying?


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

basically i'm asking when logging down the tree you are removing what would you do for two tie ins? obviously the strap but what about rope?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

Do you mean this?


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

yeah so that top one is your flipline er whatever then your lifeline is below it? how do you get it to cinch up


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

I cinch it up with a Gibbs ascender.


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

nice edit/save.....do you use a hitch or a device for ascending?


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## Ax-man (Feb 6, 2005)

For removals your right on Butch, the higher the better especially if you can plan it to work off that one single TIP, for the entire removal.

After incorporating Tom's DEDA lanyard in my climbing system I found i don't need to go for those high tie in's so much for doing trims, especially if I only have to work the bottom half of the tree for doing some roof clearance and then do a little work on the other side of tree to make it look better.

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

tinman44 said:


> nice edit/save



Haha. Actually I thought I typed that in.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

tinman44 said:


> do you use a hitch or a device for ascending?



No, not really.


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> No, not really.



come on tell me how you ascend so i can copy your methods. just wondering how some ppl ascend without gaffs. i used the modified body thrust this afternoon, shwew i was wore out anyways later in the day for more practice i just free climbed up about 12 feet then advanced my rope oh about three times to get to the top, and i used the blakes hitch to bring up the slack. i need a micro pulley


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

ooooo can i do an impersonation? oh well i'll do it anyways

tinman44: hey mb how did you take that tree down today that musta been hard with all those leads
Masterblaster: ah well i just cut it down with my saw


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

tinman44 said:


> just wondering how some ppl ascend without gaffs. i used the modified body thrust this afternoon




Hey bro, no need to get testy. I use the body thrust method all the time. Just get yur rope in the beech, and yur home free. Sorry if I came across as a smart ass.

Didn't mean 2... :alien:


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## tinman44 (Feb 6, 2005)

oh no and sorry if i sounded offended i thought you would be amused


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 6, 2005)

Haha! We're so polite!


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## Ekka (Feb 7, 2005)

Hey mb,

No ear muffs?!! :Eye: 

Hey Tinman44, try trunk walking, flick your lanyard up the tree a bit, make sure you're the right distance out with your knees half bent and walk up the trunk taking in slack on your life line as you do it.

Also you can try a foot assist, the new Petzl ones have a really fine spring in them and the weight of the rope is enough to allow traverse. 

One of my guys uses 2 ascenders with foot loops, he's a rock climber adventurist style guy. 

You can also tie in a vt on your lifeline with a short tail to your center D's, have a micro pulley hooked in just below the vt, have another prusik under that again with a loop for your foot ... push down on the prusik with your feet, the lifeline pulls down, the vt stays put because of the micro pulley and you move up, when you take pressure off the rope with your feet the vt holds you in place for it to happen all over again.

Similar to the above you can have a Gibbs rope adjuster hooked to your D's, that does away with the micro pulley and the vt and just foot push up .... there are many ways to skin this cat BUT THE LAST THING WE DO IS BODY THRUST ... bad for the back, bad for the tennis elbow. Your legs are the biggest muscles designed for taking body weight, try to work them out and leave your arms for the sawing etc.

Regarding choking off your lifeline, just do a running bowline and choke it off to the trunk with a prusik etc pushed right up against it. If you're on smaller diameter trees and a bit worried also double wrap your lanyard.


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## tinman44 (Feb 7, 2005)

i'm learning to ascend using a split tail blakes hitch, i need a micro pulley to tend the slack but i think i will invest in some ascenders and maybe a pantin. i have been ascending one tree with the foot lock and its supposed to be the hardest way to reach the canopy. but i figure get good with the hardest way and the others will seam easy. i also need to work my arms, legs back into shape, and hoping to lose a little weight in the process


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## TREETX (Feb 7, 2005)

Footlock it bar none the fasest and easiest way to get into a tree.

BTW - Footlocking the tail of your rope is NOT what I mean.


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## a_lopa (Feb 7, 2005)




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## tinman44 (Feb 7, 2005)

TREETX said:


> Footlock it bar none the fasest and easiest way to get into a tree.
> 
> BTW - Footlocking the tail of your rope is NOT what I mean.



huh? i'm so confused


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## tinman44 (Feb 7, 2005)

a_lopa said:


> its important to know where to have your point, and what to leave to get the job done.


so whats your point?


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## a_lopa (Feb 7, 2005)




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## TREETX (Feb 7, 2005)

Like this


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## Lumberjack (Feb 7, 2005)

I use a VT instead of a blakes. When I am ascending using the traditional method, I use a VT and micro pulley (like always) and a pantin (like always). I body thrust and I foot lock, a mix between the two, depending on where I am in the tree and how far i have to go.

Get a micro pulley, that will help you alot right there. Also for rope climbing, learn to footlock, and/or get a pantin. I use a pantin, and while I understand the mechanics of foot locking, i dont do it because my boots wont let me grab the rope.

When I am climbing SRT is the only time i use an ascender, then its my ascender, a backup friction hitch with a micro pulley, and my pantin. 

The pantin is a crutch for those who dont FL, but it is also a valuable tool for some applictions in climbing.


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## glens (Feb 7, 2005)

Maybe it needs to be stated for clarity that there's a difference between foot-locking a rope (static; single or doubled) and foot-locking the tail of a "traditional" (almost) 2:1 setup?&nbsp; If there were no frictional losses involved in the "traditional" method it would be a wash at best, climbing twice the rope at half the load.&nbsp; In normal practice it ends up being mostly just climbing twice the rope with nearly the same load, and who wants to do that?

Glen


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## canopychick (Feb 7, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> I use the body thrust method all the time.



Oh, I LOVE that method.



**means to be a smartass**


**runs & hides**

:blob5:


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## TREEWRK (Feb 7, 2005)

I personally like the hanging in a tree and checking out the scenes brifely I use
a petzel ascender myself


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## Treeman14 (Feb 7, 2005)

canopychick said:


> Oh, I LOVE that method.



Yes, but have you done it in a tree? :angel:


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## P_woozel (Feb 7, 2005)

TREETX said:


> Footlock it bar none the fasest and easiest way to get into a tree.
> 
> BTW - Footlocking the tail of your rope is NOT what I mean.


Fastest for those competent at it, easiest? I disagree, i can drink coffe almost while jugging up, little more effort to footlock.


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## huskycandoit (Feb 7, 2005)

MB
I agree and I disagree I guess Im a rookie because I've only been climbing for about a year and a half. And I to get to the top to tie in with my through ball. If not i will go the highest i get my line to then try to get up higher with a pole saw.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 7, 2005)

The whole point is... get to the top.

In almost every case, the higher and more well thought out yur TIP iz, the easier the work can be performed.

And don't be skeered to grab that 2nd TIP when needed, just don't become dependant upon it.

Climbing is like chess, not checkers.


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## TREETX (Feb 8, 2005)

In Austin, I had a huge post oak about 4 feet from my computer, growing out of my back porch (that is why I rented the house). I always kept a line in it and practiced my footlock until now I can finally FL in redwings, hightech hikers, or 5 gallon buckets.

Whatever gets you there bro. But fact is, you can learn new techniques on the job, if you wanna grow, you have to climb in your own time.

You probably can drink coffeee while "jugging" up, after all, you aren't going anywhere very fast.....

.02


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## a_lopa (Feb 8, 2005)

very true,the part about learning in your own time.


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## canopychick (Feb 8, 2005)

Treeman14 said:


> Yes, but have you done it in a tree? :angel:



I would do it in a tree. I would do it with a key. I do so like that method, Man. I do so like it, Sam I am.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Feb 8, 2005)

hmmm..... doughnuts.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Feb 8, 2005)

Q:-there seems to be a lot of different techniques and equipment combinations, are some good for one job and not for others or is it all down to personal preferance?
Q:- where abouts would you tie a karabina when using it as a Knot tender?


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## jason j ladue (Feb 9, 2005)

trees are like snowflakes or fingerprints or any other naturally occuring system/structure, they are mostly all the same w/in a set, but each one calls for a slightly different approach. keep up on the various technology and techniques, and each situation will indicate which approach is best :angel:


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## jason j ladue (Feb 9, 2005)

the furhter you are from your tie-in point the greater range of motion you are allowed. this ultimately translates into a greater # of options you are given to perform the task @ hand. 
did someone refer to moving your tie-in w/a pole saw? one of my all-time fav tricks. pole tools are good for lots of things. try using one to balance your self on a limb walk like the tightrope walker @ the circus...


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## lync (Feb 9, 2005)

Use that 2 section pole saw to pull yourself out onto a limb to get to the tips. High tie in will let you pedulum out to the target limb.

corey


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## jason j ladue (Feb 10, 2005)

cool. yeah thats a good one too. love it...


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## JonnyHart (Feb 12, 2005)

Not easy moving with a 12 foot pole on yer hip though.


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## jimmyq (Feb 16, 2005)

ok, sorry if I make a small derail but it seems the climbers are pocketing in areas on this site these days and I need a climber to answer a basic question for me. on the note of two tie ins. I have to trim a large (for me anyways) plum tree on Friday, it is about 35 feet tall and perhaps 40 wide. I figure I can "free" climb it (perhaps the term is secured free climb) a ways to get to some of the upper reaches with my 16' zubat and my lopper. I have a saddle with a lanyard and I am curious if I can use a loop runner as a second lanyard?


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## jimmyq (Feb 16, 2005)

in the pic the "wires" running through the tree are laundry line. no electric nearby.


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## Stumper (Feb 16, 2005)

Paul, You could use a looprunner for a second tie-in but the easiest way to move around and work the tree will be to run your climbing line through a crotch high in the center then use your lanyard (or looprunner or whatever) for positioning as you move around. The problem with just two lanyards is that if they are both short you don't have the option of simply lowering yourself to the ground.


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## jimmyq (Feb 16, 2005)

thanks Justin, I will stare at the pic some more (to plan my TIP and such) and perhaps use my 50' rope to tie in and try to work it.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 16, 2005)

a_lopa said:


> its important to know where to have your point, and what to leave to get the job done.



I agree, some minaimal planning does need to be done prior to entering the tree, and working your way up, taking every limb as you go can be counter productive.

And as Mike pints out, putting too much htought into it wastes time.

There is no replacement for experiance in the whole team, a good ground crew will make the climber shine, and an inexperianced group can make it seem like forever.

The key is learnign how different wood reacts to forces, and how to effeiciently get the optimal size of tree parts down for the crew to remove.

Too small and the climber is workig too much, too big and your waiting too much and the ground over worked.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Feb 17, 2005)

TREEWRK said:


> I personally like the hanging in a tree and checking out the scenes brifely I use
> a petzel ascender myself



ditto ,i also use a petzel ascender


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## ROLLACOSTA (Feb 17, 2005)

i'm whacked out just reading these posts on foot locking ,and body thrusting


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## bushman (Feb 17, 2005)

Use your hitch for acending .for removals you want stay tied in twice .when pruning i like to prune on the way up with the pantin and top acender an make sure my my life line is scure,and prune on.MB will help you on removals.nice pick mb.


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## jimmyq (Feb 18, 2005)

I HAVE a petzl pantin, and tomorrow it will get used if I can find a reason to go up!


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## Brock2saws (Feb 18, 2005)

Of course it's Friday now and this is probably too late but, Jimmy are talking about climbing and pruning that tree with 2 lanyards and no climbing line? Scampering around with a 16' pole pruner and trying to work 2 lanyards (one of which is a loop runner) is going to be tedious at best.

Use a climbing line. At least make a lanyard out of a piece of line and use the loop runner for foothold or to attach lower device.

Good luck,

BAB


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## jimmyq (Feb 18, 2005)

Thanks Brock and all. I figured that the two lanyard was probably not the best way to get in and work. I ended up throwing my line up(doubled), climbing my ladder to the top (orchard ladder) while tied in and advancing my prussik, free climbed (secured) about another 10 feet up, secured the prussik, threw the lanyard around another crotch and then hauled up the pole saw and took out a few larger 'adventitious sprouts', lowered the saw, dialed in the figure 8 and slowly regained terra firma. no harm done and there ya go. First time 'climbing' for money. only other few times I have tried it I have been at my parents place in a couple trees in their back yard.
anyhoo, brush dragger didnt show today so I didnt end up getting doen, have to make another trip out there tomorrow, finish pruning an apple, few more branches out of a cherry and then another trip to disposal.


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## JonnyHart (Feb 18, 2005)

Check out the past thread about DEDA lanyard. The same as 2 lanyards, but ya got the option of a 20 foot lanyard if ya ever need it. I've been using it since I first saw the pics, and you can customize to fit yer taste(i.e. ascender, hitch, prusick, etc.). It is a very safe system, allways tied in. Gotta learn to catch or throw with yer other hand though.


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## jimmyq (Feb 20, 2005)

*


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

I finally received Tree Services mag today, and was reading this thread that was published in it.

I don't know how I feel about it.

It feels not right...

And my name ain't Louisiana. :alien:


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## tinman44 (Mar 19, 2005)

wait this thread right here was in a mag? oh crap i sounded like an idiot with those early on posts without the editing. so is this gonna be in there too? uhh hello


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

http://***************/treehouse/files/thread_1_153.jpg

http://***************/treehouse/files/thread_2_137.jpg

http://***************/treehouse/images/smiles/aaf_shifty.gif


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## tinman44 (Mar 19, 2005)

well at least they edited my grammar errors, and they also cut out some interesting stuff at any rate WOOHOO i'm famous


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

I like when I said, "No, not really."

It really fit in...


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## tophopper (Mar 19, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Climbing is like chess, not checkers.



i like that analogy butch!


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## tinman44 (Mar 19, 2005)

well they didn't differentiate between me and treeco so it all sounded confusing to me


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## tophopper (Mar 19, 2005)

tinman44 said:


> well they didn't differentiate between me and treeco so it all sounded confusing to me



that does make ti read very poorly doesnt it


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

tophopper said:


> i like that analogy butch!




Well ya know it is. I'm sure tree climbing has made me a better chess player.

And, vise-versa... :alien:


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## glens (Mar 19, 2005)

I'm glad I didn't pay for that rag with my personal information.&nbsp; What a joke; well, it would be if it weren't so sad...

Glen


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## tophopper (Mar 19, 2005)




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## glens (Mar 19, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Is it really too much to ask to be credited for our contributions?


Thank God I wasn't quoted there; at least I didn't see anything from USA, hahaha!

It's not too much to ask at all, Dan.&nbsp; One should either get accreditation by having their work affiliated with their name, or by being financially rewarded for it; usually both.&nbsp; It rather sounds like the only thing happening here so far with this is the magazine is making money for content they ripped out of the ether.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 19, 2005)

The called me missouri, not Mississippi. Calling posters by there state and not the handle is dumb to me, not to mention they didnt ask permission. But why not call us by our handles? Seems like a very poorly thought out plan to me.

And we wonder why its slipping down the drain here?


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

The supposed verbatium was was whut wuz feeling queer to me...


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

glens said:


> I'm glad I didn't pay for that rag with my personal information.&nbsp; What a joke; well, it would be if it weren't so sad...
> 
> Glen




It's generic BS...


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## tophopper (Mar 19, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Wait until next month.
> 
> 'Queer Eye For the Tree Guy'


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## darkstar (Mar 20, 2005)

i have a new climber working for me hes awesome alwasy goes to the high point for his rigging .... only thing this guy takes it to the extreme ... he rigs so high the dia. of the limb crotchest he uses is sometime like one inch ...... whoa never had a climber take it that far ............. dark


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## fpyontek (Mar 20, 2005)

Be wary of the smooth talking salesman who promises you a gold mine. You may end up with only the shaft. 

Author unknown, but it seems to fit.
(I'm not trying to pass this pearl off as my own.)

Fred


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2005)

darkstar said:


> i have a new climber working for me hes awesome alwasy goes to the high point for his rigging .... only thing this guy takes it to the extreme ... he rigs so high the dia. of the limb crotchest he uses is sometime like one inch ...... whoa never had a climber take it that far ............. dark




I'm always getting "Are you sure that limb will hold?"

You don't wanna be reading my mind at that moment.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 20, 2005)

people always tell me (from the ground, of course) "be careful" or "dont fall". its like telling the cook "dont burn the soup" talk about gettin ticked- sometimes i reeealy have to bite my tongue. makes me wanna put mu boot in some1s b-hind.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2005)

Leave the dam climber alone.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 20, 2005)

i havnt climbed for long - and having only done a few prunnig jobs that dont require lugging my butt top of a tree on the edge of a golf corse - what sort of diameter can you use as you top anchour point?? - i know this greatly depends on the type of tree + how tapped you are.


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## Stumper (Mar 20, 2005)

Tom, The common rule of thumb is wrist sized. That is kind of self regulating-bigger guys usually have bigger wrists (but it varies). On species with stong wood and tough branch unions you can go smaller. On something like Cottonwood I use nothing smaller than 4 inches in diameter with a strong preference for 5"or greater.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 20, 2005)

so the rule of fist then ... nice one - but what about acctual body weight - some blokes who are smaller than me weigh a lot more - i'm 6"3 and weigh 13st+ when my mate is about 5"10 and weighs nearly 15st.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 20, 2005)

also depends on the angle of the limb you are tying into and the angle of inclusion of the lateral limb. for instance, if the stem is pretty much vertical, otherwise solid healthy growth, and pointing a little in the opposite direction of where you plan to work, you can get away with a greater range of motion/putting wore weight on that point than if it were leaning _toward _ your work area. you just gotta know what that particular specie will w/stand. your level of personal experience will tell you "yes" or "no".  if you there is a question in your mind use a 2nd point. run two lines. fasten to another part of the tree in case you think something could go wrong.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2005)

Sometimes I've tied into limbs the size of my thumb, but I was always backed-up with another TIP.


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