# Starting Out Logging...



## TheLumberJack (Apr 1, 2009)

I have tons of tree work experience, but not an inch of logging experience or knowledge. Anyone willing to chip in and share some tips as to how to get into this business?

Thanks

Kind of just the process???

cut trees>take to mill>get paid ????


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## forestryworks (Apr 1, 2009)

not a good time to get into it.

save your money til the market picks back up.


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## deeker (Apr 1, 2009)

Honestly??? Go back to school, get a degree in forestry.

I used to be gainfully employed. 

Now I am self employed...own my own mill and log too.

Go back to school.

What are you interested in??? What do you want to do and how do you plan to do it??? Decide this while going to school.

Not impossible to get into, just hard to make a go of it.


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 1, 2009)

Going back to school isn't in the cards, unfortunately.

I have one bachelors already and that debt is paid off....no more, no way!

Unless lack of forrestry degree categorically disqualifies me, I'd love to hear some more suggestions.

Even if it's not now or even next year....is there a typical path?

Could someone atleast describe the way money is made?

How does a logger get access to trees..pay for them then sell them to the mill? profit is the difference?

thanks again...i know these have to be annoying rookie questions.


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## BC_Logger (Apr 1, 2009)

first off start you just don't jump into this industry you have to learn the basics see if you can get a job working with a log grader / scaler or some one who does timber cruising or is a Forester. if you don't know what the logs are worth in the area how are you going to be able to bid or know how much your going to need haul to the landing in order to stay afloat


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 1, 2009)

BC_Logger said:


> first off start you just don't jump into this industry you have to learn the basics see if you can get a job working with a log grader / scaler or some one who does timber cruising or is a Forester. if you don't know what the logs are worth in the area how are you going to be able to bid or know how much your going to need haul to the landing in order to stay afloat



right..i didn't want to come across haphazardly. i would never go from knowing nothing one day to getting business cards made the next stating i'm a logger.

it just peeks my interest and i wanted to post to here some 'for dummies' advice and information from those with experience.


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 1, 2009)

BC_Logger said:


> see if you can get a job working with a log grader / scaler or some one who does timber cruising or is a Forester.



any suggestions for going about this?

doesn't sound like your typical sunday morning paper classified...


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## 380LGR (Apr 1, 2009)

Run run run as fast as you can in any other direction than logging!!!!!!!!


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## 380LGR (Apr 1, 2009)

And if your woried about how the money is made its easy there isnt any...


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## slowp (Apr 1, 2009)

Win a lottery jackpot, then buy the equipment, and go broke.

Some guys here started out successfully buying small roadside salvage sales, but they aren't logging now. The log market is still on a downward trip. I saw the figures today.

Buying a timber sale? Well, you need to have money up front for a deposit. For federal timber, you need a bid deposit before you can bid, in cash, and then if you get the sale, you must pay or provide bonding for 25% of the value of that sale. Then you have to pay in advance for what you are going to log, and a performance bond for the standing timber. 

Should you decide not to log the sale you bought, you are liable for damages--the sale is resold and if the bid is lower than your bid, you pay the difference.
You are also liable for the clean up work that isn't done. 
I don't know about Pennsylvania sales, only sales on federal ground. 
Learn how from somebody who knows how. And now is not a good time. There are some small sales sold elsewhere. There are also Stewardship sales in which you would do "restoration" work in exchange for the timber. But those still require an initial outlay of deposits. 

Bidding can be ferocious when the market is good. Often, in oral auctions, an established mill will "make the newcomer pay" and bid them up only to leave them with a very high priced sale. 

Equipment is going cheaply at the auction, and there's a reason for that. Workman's comp insurance is not going down. 

My job--I'm a cheaply educated forester, seems pretty darn good right now. And here's something else to think about. During the 1980s the loggers made more salary than we did. Their wages stagnated, ours didn't and we now get paid more. I'm talking crew wages.


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## 056 kid (Apr 1, 2009)

guys that have been chunkin in the $ for decades until lately. Times are terrible. The WRONG time for someone with no experience and(i dont know what you have) no equiptment.

And you dont even know how a logger makes his money??

I think you should wait on the logging...


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 1, 2009)

056 kid said:


> guys that have been chunkin in the $ for decades until lately. Times are terrible. The WRONG time for someone with no experience and(i dont know what you have) no equiptment.
> 
> And you dont even know how a logger makes his money??
> 
> I think you should wait on the logging...




I am. I came here to play dumb and learn...looks like I've learned don't do it....more than anything really interested in hearing kind of 'day in the life' tidbits of logging companies....no big deal

thanks all!


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## sILlogger (Apr 1, 2009)

the moral of the story right now is that there are alot of guys that haven't worked in 6 months and there is no positive outlook for the future.

if you can live on working your butt off 6 months out of the year in the elements then maybe logging is for you. but you aren't gonna learn it over night, and the only way to learn is to do it, get knocked down, get back up again and try it again. find somebody to take you under their wing. listen and watch everything they do!! if they can teach you something in 6 months that it took them 15 years to learn you better listen, it will save your life. I've found that logging isn't about the physical cutting of the trees, it is about the little tricks that make you more efficient and get more done. 

it took me a while to figure it out, but i can slow down, do better work, be less tired, and get more accomplished than if i just go cut like a banshee.


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## 371groundie (Apr 1, 2009)

arborism is a service business, you make your money charging a client for your services. 

logging, money is in the wood. you have to be able to take a tree a squeeze every dollar out of it. bust your balls to get wood to the mill. the mill pays you. now comes the fun part. you pay the trucker, and the landowner, and the skidder payment, and the fuel bill, and the insurance, and replace the saw you ferked up, and the tire that popped on the skidder. now you have to live off the three cents that are left til you can get another load out. 

thats a one man show with a cable skidder. you get into mechanical harvesting and its the same but the numbers are bigger. my grandfather always said "cut more wood, make more money, give more money to the government." you can produce more wood mechanically harvesting, but initial investment is bigger, repairs, fuel all bigger. 

another wise old man told me that there are two kinds of logger, ones that make payments, and ones that make repairs. you can run old equipment thats paid off and have to fix it, or you can run brand new machines and have to make payments every month. 

now, remember you are a link in a chain. things upstream and down stream affect you. you have to have wood to cut. that may mean working for a forester who takes care of it, that may mean bidding against other loggers for standing timber. you have to bid high enough to win, but low enough you can still make a profit. now you have to sell that wood. is there a market for that wood? if there is you know every other logger is sellin wood there to, if theres not, why did you bid on that kind of wood?

due to the economy affecting building starts and the paper industry it is a very poor time to get in the logging business. nationwide. no exceptions. if i were you i would stay in the tree service business theres more money and more prestige. you are a tree service professional not a dirty old woods rat. 
personally im tryin to go the other direction. i was a logger, now trying to get into the tree service business.


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## tlandrum (Apr 1, 2009)

hers a day in my logging life (today) first fuel pick-up $45,fuel log truck $250,get offroad fuel for the day $150,get engine oil $40, get trans fluid and hydro oil $100, bar oil and saw gas $55. ok now that i am 640 bucks in the hole i can head to the job.

at job ,fuel skidder, loader and dozer. add oils as needed,try to start skidder , wont start. pull starter tear apart clean and put back in (2 hrs wasted). finally fire up skidder . head into woods find that 30 yellow pine have been uprooted and are laying all over my logging roads. spend 2 hrs getting trees limbed, skidded, bucked up and un fortunately loaded. yellow pine cant be given away around here so i had to load them up and take them home to saw on the bandmill. i wanted to leave them standing so that i did not have to mess with them but weather happens. now that the pine are gone and roads are fixed i can skid logs. by now its 1:00 i have about 15 hardwood logs on ground ready to skid head in to get 1st turn and chain braks and rolls off front tire in tight turn. spend 2 hrs trying to get muddy chains out of woods ,cleaned and put back on skidder . get back in woods hook onto 5 logs hit winch cable pulls out of winch. get cable out of woods put back on winch weld eyelet back in ready to log again. 

quiting time, and no money made at all, went 1000 bucks plus in hole.

days over , ,, well until the land owners wife calls you to say they are not happy becouse the wood that i hauled away for them ( yellow pine) is worthless and they did not get money for them.i only hauled it away so that the paralized from the waist down husband would not have to pay some one to clean it up later. ... my bad.... i should have pushed it up into windrows and went on about my day...... sorry for trying to help out.....

now she says we need to clean up some of our brush thats close to the house. the deal was that i would log the job for them and the brush that was left close to the house would be piled up to burn by a grunt that they would pay out of there end.. my job was to supply the guy and they would pay him. they did not like how long it took the guy to pile the brush and fired him. my end of the deal is done . if they want it done they can hire a new man, i am not a job bank.

now,we have been gone from this job for 6 weeks since i cut off two of my fingers working on the knuckle boom,and she says my log truck is messing up her road. the drive has pot holes all up and down it , now, from the rain in the last month. but i have not been there driving on it ,remember ,fingers cut off,went to marking timber and boundry for a while until i healed. so ,no its not my truck that done it and if i fix it , you will pay for it..... up front so i dont get stuck with the bill.

long story short,timber prices are down, weather is bad and they want to blame me for the stock market crash....


do you really want to be a logger???????? i can set you right up with everything you need for a heck of a deal. then you can tell people your day in the life story of being a logger.........


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## spankrz (Apr 1, 2009)

deeker said:


> Honestly??? Go back to school, get a degree in forestry.
> 
> I used to be gainfully employed.
> 
> ...



thats what my dad did, get a degree in forestry. hes got a manager job at a stihl distributor now.


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## TreePointer (Apr 1, 2009)

Wexford, PA? Allegheny County is one of the oldest in the country. Forget forestry, yinz all should get into some type of healthcare/geriatrics. Or go up the road to work for Westinghouse n'at! 

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## FIRESMOKE (Apr 2, 2009)

I"ll try to be a liitle more positive. I have not been a "logger" for a few years but some of my friends are and I still keep in touch with some of my contacts.
It is a lot of work for really no return right now. But it was the most enjoyable thing I have ever done that I could call a job. State forest depts. are a good place to find timber to bid on, but you will need a place to sell it first. Start checking into local sawmills and see what they are buying. Find different mills that buy different species , grades and in different locals to help with hauling costs. When I started on my own I would sub contract to mills that bought there own timber and needed someone to harvest it, this takes away some of the fear of over buying and underselling untill your more comfortable in the $ side of things. Take your time be patient and do not expect to get rich over night. The more time you spend planning the better off you,ll be in the long run. GOOD LUCK!:greenchainsaw::greenchainsaw:


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 2, 2009)

thanks for all the great advice fellas...learning a lot and that was my initial goal


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## thejdman04 (Apr 2, 2009)

Depends on your area. "logging" around here doesnt really exist in the traditional sense. woods are cut down when they want to build a subdivision or mall. Then either you hopefully hear about this happening, or you advertise and hope the developer calls you to do the land clearing. Depending on the timber and lot, youe ither pay to do it (if there are lots of good oaks) or they pay you so much to clear it. Then you take the logs to the mill and get paid. Around here log prices are THROUGH THE ROOF. Not many housing projects, etc going on right now with the economy not much land being cleared=high prices. Around here we really dont have forests that get cut and replanted for timber use.


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 2, 2009)

thejdman04 said:


> Depends on your area. "logging" around here doesnt really exist in the traditional sense. woods are cut down when they want to build a subdivision or mall. Then either you hopefully hear about this happening, or you advertise and hope the developer calls you to do the land clearing. Depending on the timber and lot, youe ither pay to do it (if there are lots of good oaks) or they pay you so much to clear it. Then you take the logs to the mill and get paid. Around here log prices are THROUGH THE ROOF. Not many housing projects, etc going on right now with the economy not much land being cleared=high prices. Around here we really dont have forests that get cut and replanted for timber use.




I guess this may be a whole different topic, but land clearing is something I've done twice...both jobs about 1 acre for residential builds. It was good work and work I'd like to get more.
Maybe i should post in the business section, but how do you seek these types of jobs out? Waiting and hoping to hear about them just doesn't really work. I guess the best step would be networking and making connections with builders. 
Even though the economy is hurting the building biz, in my area atleast, there is a lot of building happening. Wexford, for those who don't know, is an upscale suburb of Pittsburgh...lots of money...Roethlisberger and half of the rest of the pro athletes in the city live within a mile of me. I actually did a little pruning job for Polamalu...super quiet guy but it was cool cashing his check!


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## sILlogger (Apr 2, 2009)

thejdman04 said:


> Depends on your area. "logging" around here doesnt really exist in the traditional sense. woods are cut down when they want to build a subdivision or mall. Then either you hopefully hear about this happening, or you advertise and hope the developer calls you to do the land clearing. Depending on the timber and lot, youe ither pay to do it (if there are lots of good oaks) or they pay you so much to clear it. Then you take the logs to the mill and get paid. Around here log prices are THROUGH THE ROOF. Not many housing projects, etc going on right now with the economy not much land being cleared=high prices. Around here we really dont have forests that get cut and replanted for timber use.



you in Illinois? if so what part?


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## thejdman04 (Apr 2, 2009)

I live about 20 minutes east of rockford IL. Im in the very northern part of il, in 10 minutes I can be in WI If you are insured, I would just call builders, and/or get an ad in the yellow pages. If you dont have a business license or ins, I wouldnt advertise much, go under the radar if possible.


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## sILlogger (Apr 2, 2009)

I cut timber in the carbondale area, 300 miles south of you (50 miles from the southern tip of the state)


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## Cletuspsc (Apr 2, 2009)

deeker said:


> Honestly??? Go back to school, get a degree in forestry.
> 
> I used to be gainfully employed.
> 
> ...



:agree2: X 10

Not a good time at all

But if you really wanna get into it find some work with an established company and work for them for a few years till you learn all the little tricks and get your name out there and build some connections with buyers and mills in your area. i have found that the more people you know the better off youll be.


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## Femur Breaker (Apr 2, 2009)

Whats your degree in?

And you are wise to, as you are trying to do, learn before you leap. Explore the entire industry.....Logging may be on a slump, but the wood industry always thrives. Study, find your niche.....you seem very interested correct? If you are hardworking, have knowledge in buisness and can handle failure as well as success, then you have no reason to be anything but optimistic....I think the best thing you can do is to keep researching and get yourself out there in the field as much as you can.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 2, 2009)

Get a job with a logger. You'll learn tons.

There's nothing like it, logging. Try it.

May be hard to find a job right now though. Don't know unless you try.

Hey SIL dude- carbondale eh? I hear southern IL is more like KY than IL, even sympathized with the agrarian nation of the CSA. My mom grew up in cental IL, I've been around that state a bit.


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## sILlogger (Apr 2, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Get a job with a logger. You'll learn tons.
> 
> There's nothing like it, logging. Try it.
> 
> ...



ha ha...the last 60 miles of the southern end of the state is completely different than the rest. it is pretty flat until you get down here. definitely more like kentucky in landscape as opposed to the rest of the state.

but we also have Chicago in this state.....uggghh...


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 3, 2009)

my bachelor's is in business administration....glad to have it but don't enjoy sitting at a computer 40 hours a week...tried it for a couple years..pay was average and life/work balance was horid.

anyway..i'll try to hook up with a logger in my region but i truely have no clue how to go about doing that....like i said before, it's not really a sunday paper classified...i'll try good ole google


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## STLfirewood (Apr 3, 2009)

I have picked up a few small logging jobs. Being a one man show with a helper here and there keeps expenses down. I target he small tracks that most loggers don't want to touch. If make it a lot easier when using a skid steer to log with. I cut the grade white oak and take it to the bolt mill($1 a board foot). I cut the tie logs and take them to a different mill ($260 a thousand). I cut the rest into saw logs and take it home. I split 60/40 to me on the grade and 70/30 on the rest. I base the 70/30 split on $150 a thousand. That covers everything that's not grade. Landowner is getting $45 a thousand on everything that is not grade down to 8" on the small end at 8'8". Smaller then 8" I take but pay $30 a thousand. I take all the saw logs home and process them into firewood. Firewood brings $300-$350 a cord delivered and stacked. There is also a guy that buys firewood around here for $180 a cord dumped. He buys 300-400 cords a year. I sell my extra to him just to keep some cash flowing. I try and pick these small jobs up between tree jobs. Tree jobs pay better. I use these jobs as time fillers.

Scott


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## Zodiac45 (Apr 3, 2009)

As most of the people have suggested, this is maybe the worst time in quite a while too get into the business. What SlowP mentioned is what usually happens especially too a newcomer trying too break into the bizz. 

That said, I would suggest you hire on with a competent crew and get some experience hands on and from the ground up. From there, you'll experience and learn, or see opportunities too do things differently. 
Our business depends upon the ability too too maximize a given situation. By maximize, I mean the planning of the site from day one till it's finished. Where is the best landing? How much and where do I build roads and surfaces that optimize productivity. In today's logging where machines are used heavily, it's all about time on that Hobbs meter! Safety for the crew and how many truckloads can I get too mill on a daily basis is what it's all about. It's not rocket science but I can tell you, the difference between an experienced and clever "Bossman" can make a world of difference in everyone on the crew's performance. It also can (usually always) spell the difference between making or losing money on the job. 
Margins can be quite thin and it doesn't take many "screwups" too turn the tide. So,..... site planning, what and how many machines and crew too work it and the "know how" to fix-up a competitive bid (and make it happen within that budget) really makes all the difference. 

Whatever you decide, Best of Luck  too you and ask away of specifics that come up.


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 3, 2009)

Zodiac45 said:


> Whatever you decide, Best of Luck  too you and ask away of specifics that come up.



thanks!
i think i'll stick to what i know for a bit.

where in Maine? i have relatives in Camden and worked in Kittery briefly.


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## Zodiac45 (Apr 3, 2009)

TheLumberJack said:


> thanks!
> i think i'll stick to what i know for a bit.
> 
> where in Maine? i have relatives in Camden and worked in Kittery briefly.



Camden's a nice town. Kittery too. I'm up about an hour or so North East of Bar Harbor on the coast.


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## deeker (Apr 4, 2009)

slowp said:


> Win a lottery jackpot, then buy the equipment, and go broke.
> 
> Some guys here started out successfully buying small roadside salvage sales, but they aren't logging now. The log market is still on a downward trip. I saw the figures today.
> 
> ...



Where were you when I started??? Sinking....slowly..

You have brought up many points that often go unsaid. 

Great post.

Kevin


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## lfnh (Apr 7, 2009)

slowp said:


> Win a lottery jackpot, then buy the equipment, and go broke.
> 
> Some guys here started out successfully buying small roadside salvage sales, but they aren't logging now. The log market is still on a downward trip. I saw the figures today.
> 
> ...



Stewardship program looked promising. Some recent contract awards were halfway decent dollar amounts. But current bonding regs hurt smaller companies, even though Stewardship program had a goal of employing local people and businesses in hard hit regions. Just seems that relaxing the bonding requirements would help in these times, but don't see much progress on the bonding issue lately.
Never got rich thinning juniper, but brought in enough to get along ok.


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## bullbuck (Apr 15, 2009)

*not sure but?*



TheLumberJack said:


> I have tons of tree work experience, but not an inch of logging experience or knowledge. Anyone willing to chip in and share some tips as to how to get into this business?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...



if you think you want to log i would reccomend getting a production felling job,when having to produce large amounts of wood for average pay, day in day out will let you know if you have wood chips in your veins fairly quick!


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## mercer_me (Apr 15, 2009)

Don't get into logging your one bad break down from filing chapter 11 if you don't own your equipment. But even if you do own your equipment it's not a good time to het into logging.


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 15, 2009)

ya i've pretty much given up on the thought...atleast for the near future


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