# Female climbers



## Mapleman

Ahhh, there's nothing finer than to be on the ground at the base of the trunk, looking up and seeing a woman body thrust up a rope. I've taught several women to recreational climb. I love seeing those hips and butt thrusting up the tree...

I've also worked with several women. I met Trish in Healdsberg, CA, carving up a Doug fir with a big Huskie and a 28" or 32" bar. She met her man climbing for pinecones in the Sierras. But I've yet to see a woman working with a running chain saw in a tree. I came across an outfit in the Raleigh area that had a woman climber who was reputed to be a good take down artist and pruner, but I never saw her work.

Anyone out there have stories of women working in trees? This thread could get real interesting if we allow it to delve out of the PG arena.


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## loveroftrees

Only in my dreams..... To the ones that do, I take my hat off to them. It is not an easy task...


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## pdqdl

They're here. Fortunately, I think their purpose for hanging out at AS is to just be part of the group, not to be the exception.

My understanding is that most of them on this website have abandoned hip-thrusting for SRT. Perhaps only because it was so undignified, but more likely because it requires more leg and less upper body to go up the tree.

Maybe just to disappoint the onlookers, too.


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## Raymond




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## Mapleman

There was an outfit in Russian River/Forestville, CA area--I forget the name, but it was catchy and sexy sounding. It was two women climbers. I think they did mostly pruning. This was back in the late 80s-mid 90s. Personally, I think having women on the crew is a plus.


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## Raymond

Really though. Wife and I have a female friend who use to bug me to teach her to climb.

Boy you should of seen my wifes tongue go sideways and her cheek swell out.


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## Mapleman

Just remembered the name of that company--"It Ain't Ladylike Tree Service." Not as sexy as I thought. 

Not being married, I hadn't thought about the whole dynamics of having a woman on the crew. For me it's more a matter of if a person can pull his/her weight. There was a whole controversy of women firefighters. I'm all for equal opportunity, but if physical limitations jepordize safety, ie, not being able to fireman carry a person from a burning building or not being able to run a bull rope with a 600 lb. piece attached, then a line has been crossed. 

As for pruning, women have a more aesthetic eye when it comes to shaping. And they are generally lighter on their feet and able to limb walk farther out to make those really great cuts on the ends of branches that look like someone in a bucket made them. But for doing takedowns where big chunks need to be hand thrown, not many women are built for that.


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## Bigus Termitius

Tree Service Magazine did a cover piece on Women climbers back in Nov of last year.

http://www.treeservicesmagazine.com/toc.php?year=2008&month=11

It's rated G for Good read.


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## Tree Pig

Bigus Termitius said:


> Tree Service Magazine did a cover piece on Women climbers back in Nov of last year.
> 
> http://www.treeservicesmagazine.com/toc.php?year=2008&month=11
> 
> It's rated G for Good read.



I got dibs on the one with the red striped tank top. Sorry guys I called it first


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## Mapleman

Checked out those pics. With the exception of 2 or 3 women, most of the others looked like recreational climbers or groundies rather than working climbers. Having said that, I've seen a lot of out of shape male bucket operators and overweight climbers, who never leave the trunk, in my day. You can always tell where these guys have been--bigger cuts closer in to the trunk rather than smaller thinning cuts farther out on the limbs.


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## treemandan

pdqdl said:


> They're here. Fortunately, I think their purpose for hanging out at AS is to just be part of the group, not to be the exception.
> 
> My understanding is that most of them on this website have abandoned hip-thrusting for SRT. Perhaps only because it was so undignified, but more likely because it requires more leg and less upper body to go up the tree.
> 
> Maybe just to disappoint the onlookers, too.



Hey, I abandoned a whole lot of that... in the trees that is. But I did mention before how my nipples occasionally get nerpled when I use a split tail. I think I get right between the beeners. I would imagine this might be worse for the ladies.


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## Mapleman

Dan wrote:

"Hey, I abandoned a whole lot of that... in the trees that is. But I did mention before how my nipples occasionally get nerpled when I use a split tail. I think I get right between the beeners. I would imagine this might be worse for the ladies."

Imagine having to go up in a tree and helping a distressed damsel extricate herself from that situation. I've seen guys with long hair or beards get really gnarled up in their rigging. Good to have a pair of hand snips when that happens. A friend of mine and I had to lower a guy out of a tree because he froze in a crotch 40 feet up. 

I had another guy who wanted to work for me tell me he was a natural. I told him we'd conduct an interview in the top of a tree that I was about to take down. It was a short interview--he but his gaffs on the outside of his boots.


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## Metals406

Ummm... Look at 'Kathy'... I'm pretty sure she could take me in a fistfight. :jawdrop:


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## Mapleman

Think she uses 'stroids?


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## tree MDS

Metals406 said:


> Ummm... Look at 'Kathy'... I'm pretty sure she could take me in a fistfight. :jawdrop:



Damn! you beat me to it.


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## Tree Pig

Metals406 said:


> Ummm... Look at 'Kathy'... I'm pretty sure she could take me in a fistfight. :jawdrop:



Not me man. I had to kick her ass before for hitting on my wife.






(just kidding of course Ive never met him... I mean her.)


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## ozzy42

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I got dibs on the one with the red striped tank top. Sorry guys I called it first



Looks like you got pick of the litter.

Then I guess I'll take the first one on the left, middle row.


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## treemandan

Well, she looks like Shelia, the ,uhm, lady who lives over on frog hollow ( see frog hollow posts). Exactly like her.
I know some of us are getting worked up over this , some more than others and in ways best no spoken I reckon.
I am down with Ms. Holzer, or is it Mrs.? Doesn't matter, I just know that is one female who don't go" Gee, that sounds high" when you give em the estimate. Kathy, you go girl, tell the rest of them.


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## demographic

Years ago I went to watch the world climbing competition at Birmingham.

Climbing there was Isabelle Patissier (who came second)...






And Lyn Hill (who came first)...





Lets just say that I paid a *lot* more attention to the womans climbing than the mens.

Issabelle Patissiar was amazing to watch and moved like quicksilver, no wasted effort and all fluid motion.
I think I fell in lust with her.

The women in general were a lot more fluid than the men anyway, and they used their feet a lot more, the blokes just grabbed onto things and hoiked themselves up by sheer strength.


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## Blakesmaster

demographic said:


> Years ago I went to watch the world climbing competition at Birmingham.
> 
> Climbing there was Isabelle Patissier (who came second)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Lyn Hill (who came first)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets just say that I paid a *lot* more attention to the womans climbing than the mens.
> 
> Issabelle Patissiar was amazing to watch and moved like quicksilver, no wasted effort and all fluid motion.
> I think I fell in lust with her.
> 
> The women in general were a lot more fluid than the men anyway, and they used their feet a lot more, the blokes just grabbed onto things and hoiked themselves up by sheer strength.



Damn, I'm gonna switch to rock climbing. Later, guys. You have fun with the tree broads!


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## Kate Butler

Some of us run saws in trees on a regular basis - just another aspect of the job.


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## tree md

Call me chicken but I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole... :hmm3grin2orange:

I did see 3 or 4 hotties on the TCIA cover though!


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## Mapleman

I've met more than a few women who can handle chain saws, especially ones who live in the mountains or northern climes--no big news there. And I know there are women climbers who compete in tree jamborees and who can run the rigging from the ground. What I wanted to know is: 

Has anybody out there actually seen a woman climber doing real tree work in a real tree on a daily basis? I'm not doubting the existence of such a person--Kathie looks imminently qualified--I'm just interested in first hand accounts. 

Great rock climbing photos by the way. There is a story about Lyn when she was climbing in Yosemite with some friends. A guy climbing above broke free from his rope and flew past her group. She remarked:

"That's something you don't see every day."


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## xander9727

Other than competition I've never seen a female tree climber in action......but I have seen some guys who I felt climbed like girls....:jawdrop:


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## Raymond




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## hokiewheeler

Giggity.


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## Slvrmple72

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-_xN6R98aU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2a2KgM-cLE&feature=related

:jawdrop:


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## Rftreeman

I've seen two real working female climbers and they were a bit hard on the eyes if you know what I mean, one of them threatened to beat me up and I got scared.


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## TimberMcPherson

As a general rule woman as climbers cant rely on brute strength so are generally very good techically and are very methodical in there work. I have seen a few doing great work up until they have to pick up a saw bigger than a 357xp or are having to hump heavy loads. 

I did know a female logger from where I was from, she certainly looked and acted more like her male counterparts, I think she felled using a 288xp, certainly wasnt a small saw.
My wife doesnt climb but can handle a 044 quite well.

If you have a crew of guys and want to double production, put a woman in the crew who knows how to work.
With the army we would have a group of 20 guys and they would get tasks done but there would be a lot of bull and ego crashing and general mucking around. But add just one woman to the mix and it changed the group dynamics. 
The guys worked harder, safer and were less likely to cause any trouble. We could get more done with 12 guys and one girl than we could with 20 guys. (and yes, we measured it on a few occations, it did go to hell if she was the fliirting type) but providing she kept working, all the guys busted there guts at the same time.


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## treeoperations

i was trained by a female arborist 2006 tree climbing competition winner 
Elena O'Neill, she taught me a lot of things to help me on my way, i started out learning to climb with no upper body strength(cycling does nothing for upper body) and she taught me alot of tricks to help my climbing as i worked on making my upper body stronger and also taught me how to become a very methodical about my work.

when doing demonstations for our class she had no issues with a 066 with 36inch bar up a tree, didnt break a sweat, then after meeting other people in our industry here in nz and they knew we were trained by Elena and the first comment was good luck shes a hard task master and they were right she knew how to push you to your limit.


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## treeseer

I've seen Elena compete; a very able climber.

If women are designed to make light cuts at the ends of branches and other technical work, instead of the whack em and stack em approach, then they are the future of tree care.

I've worked with grown men who cried when they had to take off their spikes and then cried more when they had to let go of the trunk. I've seen men quit instead of conquering their fears and meeting the need to get in shape and learning how to care for trees instead of just cutting them down.

Culls.


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## tree MDS

demographic said:


> Years ago I went to watch the world climbing competition at Birmingham.
> 
> Climbing there was Isabelle Patissier (who came second)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Lyn Hill (who came first)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets just say that I paid a *lot* more attention to the womans climbing than the mens.
> 
> Issabelle Patissiar was amazing to watch and moved like quicksilver, no wasted effort and all fluid motion.
> I think I fell in lust with her.
> 
> The women in general were a lot more fluid than the men anyway, and they used their feet a lot more, the blokes just grabbed onto things and hoiked themselves up by sheer strength.



That blond is a fabulous looking creature indeed.


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## Bermie

Oooookaaaaayyy....

I guess I have to chime in here!
I'm female, I climb, I use a chainsaw in trees, I fell trees, I do groundwork.
I'm small, it's just reality, I will never be able to hump around a big ass saw all day, luckily the work I get doesn't require that. My saws range from a silky to a 361 with a 20'... and yes I've used it up in a tree.
My 'strength' if you want to call it that is being able to tiptoe way out to the little tips, and maybe a tad more safety consious than most of the guys I know.
I have not had to use a saw for a week now, all the trees needed was the silky. Mahogany, avocado, poiciana, all of them are wobbly and the wood fibres are very snappy, thank goodness I'm only 116lbs soaking wet! 
I got a job the other day, a mess of mexican pepper to cut and clear...know what, I subbed it to a friend who has six big guys on staff, grunt work, I'll just add my consulting fee!
But next week is working through an avocado orchard, chainsaws will be out, in the air and on the ground.
We are the exception rather than the rule, and one has to be sensible and know your limits, I see no point in competing to see how big of a saw I can handle all day, work smart, many trees can be conquered with a small saw, and dynamic rigging and physics can reduce a 600lb chunk to something manageable. And yes, some days the bucket truck is a godsend


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## Bigus Termitius

Bermie said:


> Oooookaaaaayyy....
> 
> I guess I have to chime in here!



Well, it's about time.


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## Raymond

Bermie said:


> Oooookaaaaayyy....
> 
> I guess I have to chime in here!
> I'm female, I climb, I use a chainsaw in trees, I fell trees, I do groundwork.
> I'm small, it's just reality, I will never be able to hump around a big ass saw all day, luckily the work I get doesn't require that. My saws range from a silky to a 361 with a 20'... and yes I've used it up in a tree.
> My 'strength' if you want to call it that is being able to tiptoe way out to the little tips, and maybe a tad more safety consious than most of the guys I know.
> I have not had to use a saw for a week now, all the trees needed was the silky. Mahogany, avocado, poiciana, all of them are wobbly and the wood fibres are very snappy, thank goodness I'm only 116lbs soaking wet!
> I got a job the other day, a mess of mexican pepper to cut and clear...know what, I subbed it to a friend who has six big guys on staff, grunt work, I'll just add my consulting fee!
> But next week is working through an avocado orchard, chainsaws will be out, in the air and on the ground.
> We are the exception rather than the rule, and one has to be sensible and know your limits, I see no point in competing to see how big of a saw I can handle all day, work smart, many trees can be conquered with a small saw, and dynamic rigging and physics can reduce a 600lb chunk to something manageable. And yes, some days the bucket truck is a godsend


 That's Grrrreat!


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## tree MDS

Bermie said:


> Oooookaaaaayyy....
> 
> I guess I have to chime in here!
> I'm female, I climb, I use a chainsaw in trees, I fell trees, I do groundwork.
> I'm small, it's just reality, I will never be able to hump around a big ass saw all day, luckily the work I get doesn't require that. My saws range from a silky to a 361 with a 20'... and yes I've used it up in a tree.
> My 'strength' if you want to call it that is being able to tiptoe way out to the little tips, and maybe a tad more safety consious than most of the guys I know.
> I have not had to use a saw for a week now, all the trees needed was the silky. Mahogany, avocado, poiciana, all of them are wobbly and the wood fibres are very snappy, thank goodness I'm only 116lbs soaking wet!
> I got a job the other day, a mess of mexican pepper to cut and clear...know what, I subbed it to a friend who has six big guys on staff, grunt work, I'll just add my consulting fee!
> But next week is working through an avocado orchard, chainsaws will be out, in the air and on the ground.
> We are the exception rather than the rule, and one has to be sensible and know your limits, I see no point in competing to see how big of a saw I can handle all day, work smart, many trees can be conquered with a small saw, and dynamic rigging and physics can reduce a 600lb chunk to something manageable. And yes, some days the bucket truck is a godsend



Very nice pics Bermie - nice takedown too!

I know the trees you speak of from when I was in FL, them Poincianna's are brittle as heck fer sure. I tell guys that that the type of work done on tropical trees is way harder than most treework around here - crown reductions and such. 

Nice job! Now if you look anything like that blond I'll work for five bucks an hour, I hate winter here! (sorry I couldnt resist that one, lol)


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## 046

lynn hill and katie brown climb the west face
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmm9RZe3Pmc&NR=1


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## demographic

tree MDS said:


> That blond is a fabulous looking creature indeed.




To be fair though, I reckon it must have been 16 or more years since I saw her climbing and I doubt she looks quite as good now.
Still, she really was amazing to watch climbing (and I don't just mean her looks) as she wasted no energy.

Lyn Hill wasn't quite so fluid in her movements but she was obviously stronger in terms of upper body strength.


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## Mapleman

GREAT PICS, BERMIE...

That was the response I was looking for. It gets into the whole realm of kinesiology--the study of mechanics and human anatomy. I've been practicing it for a while now, and it's one of the main reasons why I'm still climbing fluidly and efficiently at 62. 

When I worked the Bay Area in the 80s, I watched all these young guys beat their bodies up by muscling their way up trees and manhandling big chunks. I knew most of them would be finished as climbers by the time their knees, elbows, shoulders, and lower backs blew out sometime in their late 30s or 40s. I decided then to be a finesse climber: using my body like a well-lubricated machine; conserving my energy by limiting the amount of moves and cuts I made in a tree; being focused while I climbed (having done a bit of rock climbing really helped). Stretching out before climbing is a really big help. You're not a puss because you do yoga, guys..

I found it was fairly easy to finesse my way through trees when it was strictly pruning. Big takedowns was another matter, especially when working under time constraints while working for someone else. But if you have a good ground crew and learn to use your body like a levering tool--finding the fulcrum points and such--then it can really make the job less strenuous. I never thought that I'd be using all that high school geometry and physics, but I use it every time I climb.

Putting my ego aside is perhaps the hardest thing I had to learn. I saw that power climbing was going to wear me out by my mid 40s.
I love it when someone says I'm an artist or mechanic in a tree. 

I totally agree with TM--having a woman on the crew usually increases production. I think it brings everyone up a notch and increases the team work. And I agree with Bermie that woman are generally more lighter on the limbs and able to make those great cuts on the ends of branches that look like they were done by someone in a bucket. Also, what she said about finessing takedowns by using the rigging and taking smaller pieces. In the long run it will increase your production as it will add years to your climbing.


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## Kate Butler

Bermie, OMG, Brazilian pepper (the same as Mexican, I suppose) so bloody dense and heavy when the trees are old - really a pain to hump around once on the ground. Some folks are allergic to the sap, too (for those of you who don't normally work the Tropics). Also, they're massive re-sprouters unless you paint 42% glyphosate on the stump within a couple of minutes of the final base cut (Melaleuca, too)


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## tree md

Bermie said:


> Oooookaaaaayyy....
> 
> I guess I have to chime in here!
> I'm female, I climb, I use a chainsaw in trees, I fell trees, I do groundwork.
> I'm small, it's just reality, I will never be able to hump around a big ass saw all day, luckily the work I get doesn't require that. My saws range from a silky to a 361 with a 20'... and yes I've used it up in a tree.
> My 'strength' if you want to call it that is being able to tiptoe way out to the little tips, and maybe a tad more safety consious than most of the guys I know.
> I have not had to use a saw for a week now, all the trees needed was the silky. Mahogany, avocado, poiciana, all of them are wobbly and the wood fibres are very snappy, thank goodness I'm only 116lbs soaking wet!
> I got a job the other day, a mess of mexican pepper to cut and clear...know what, I subbed it to a friend who has six big guys on staff, grunt work, I'll just add my consulting fee!
> But next week is working through an avocado orchard, chainsaws will be out, in the air and on the ground.
> We are the exception rather than the rule, and one has to be sensible and know your limits, I see no point in competing to see how big of a saw I can handle all day, work smart, many trees can be conquered with a small saw, and dynamic rigging and physics can reduce a 600lb chunk to something manageable. And yes, some days the bucket truck is a godsend



Great pics Bermie!

:yourock:


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## Bermie

Kate Butler said:


> Bermie, OMG, Brazilian pepper (the same as Mexican, I suppose) so bloody dense and heavy when the trees are old - really a pain to hump around once on the ground. Some folks are allergic to the sap, too (for those of you who don't normally work the Tropics). Also, they're massive re-sprouters unless you paint 42% glyphosate on the stump within a couple of minutes of the final base cut (Melaleuca, too)



OMG is right! Same stuff I HATE it! We have some monsters here, or just loads of those small twisty, nasty, snappy, springy, ####ty things. It is public enemy #1 in nature reserves. We use Garlon or Tordon on the stumps. Got to be careful with Tordon, it can affect ajacent trees through the root exudate. I've been working with it long enough I'm not allergic. No Melaleuca here.

Yup, Mapleman, its about saving the body! Mind you tree work is great for the summer bikini season, except for the scratches and bruises, and NO you lot, I am not posting any pictures! Sorry MDS I'm not a goldilocks...more of a silver fox, the colour of wisdom got me in my 20's!


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## Mapleman

When I worked in southern Australia, we'd bore into gum stumps and hit them with chlorox. I heard salt works too. Ever try that, Bermie or Kate?

Haven't worked in the Caribbean, although I have worked on tropical trees in Hawaii. My buddies tell me there's good $$$ to be made pruning in the winter after hurricane season. Also, I've heard some horror stories about toxic sap.

I was wondering if anyone has been to Cuba recently and seen the damage from all those hurricane strikes. Was wondering about how they do tree work there. I've flirted with the idea of showing up sometime with my climbing gear and 020 and doing some volunteer work.

In Japan they build bamboo scaffolding around trees. I've seen guys in parts of Central America just barefootin' it with machetes. Whatever it takes...


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## treeseer

Mapleman said:


> I was wondering if anyone has been to Cuba recently and seen the damage from all those hurricane strikes. Was wondering about how they do tree work there. I've flirted with the idea of showing up sometime with my climbing gear and 020 and doing some volunteer work.


Hey once travel there is a little more normalized, let's go for it! I lived 90 miles from Cuba for quite a while; always wondered what it was like. And you gotta wonder what their level of arboriculture is like...:jawdrop:

Keep Rockin, Fiona!


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## Kate Butler

Mapleman said:


> When I worked in southern Australia, we'd bore into gum stumps and hit them with clorox. I heard salt works too. Ever try that, Bermie or Kate?
> 
> Never heard of the Clorox trick, but I thinks it's easier to paint a stump than lug a drill around. Next time around I'm going to try one of those bottles like those that shoe polish comes in (with the foam cap that's essentially a foam brush). They have covers (so you don't wear it when you put it in your pocket) and you just give it a little squeeze to get out whatever amount needed. It takes a surprisingly small amount to coat a stump - even a big one.


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## Bermie

That's why I like Tordon RTU (Ready to use) No mixing and it has a dribble cap, so you don't need a brush. Just the spout gets contaminated, still need gloves to open it.
Another climbing pic...


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## treemandan

Nice work ladies. I am talking to the guys here you sorry bunch of girl scouts.
Bermie, you da " man". Awesome style you got. Please more pics.


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## TreEmergencyB

Bermie said:


> That's why I like Tordon RTU (Ready to use) No mixing and it has a dribble cap, so you don't need a brush. Just the spout gets contaminated, still need gloves to open it.
> Another climbing pic...



straight round up concentrate on the cambium ring will kill it right no sprouts after that


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## Mapleman

Kate,

No need for a drill. Just bore in with the tip of your saw. In younger days I sometimes carved my initials in the stump before letting loose with the chlorox. The Aussies I worked for swore by it.


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## Mapleman

Bermie,

How long of a silkie did you use to prune that tree? Pretty awesome shot!


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## tree md

Mapleman said:


> Kate,
> 
> No need for a drill. Just bore in with the tip of your saw. In younger days I sometimes carved my initials in the stump before letting loose with the chlorox. The Aussies I worked for swore by it.



I usually cut a check pattern in the stump so it will hold whatever your treating it with. A lot of old timers swear by rock salt.


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## Bermie

Mapleman said:


> Bermie,
> 
> How long of a silkie did you use to prune that tree? Pretty awesome shot!



Silky Zubat (my third hand) and Fiskars pole pruner in the tree, and the Hayuchi and the Fiskars from the ground. The Fiskars extends to about 11' and the head pivots so you can get a good angle on the cuts.

As for the stump treatments...even full strength roundup sometimes doesn't work for pepper, regardless, you have to get whatever chemical you are using right around the cambium/bark layer, putting it in the middle does no good whatever.


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## Raymond

You guys really put something on stumps to try and kill it?
I don't know any tree guys around here that does that.

People asked me about what I could put on them 
to kill it out, I tell'em a stump grinder. :dunno:


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## xander9727

garlon 4 and diesel fuel.
It won't let you down.


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## Mapleman

I used my ex-old lady's recipe for blueberry muffins for a while, with limited success.


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## Raymond

Mapleman said:


> I used my ex-old lady's recipe for blueberry muffins for a while, with limited success.


LOL, Yeah...I have heard of guys coating the stump with roofing tar. 
By the time it drys and flakes off the stump will be dead...That's what I heard. :dunno:


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## pdqdl

*This is a long way off topic...*

Garlon is a concentrated form of Triclopyr, traditionally used for tougher broadleaf weeds. Mixed with diesel, it is used for "basal bark" applications: killing smaller (thin barked) trees without making any cuts. Some folks like to take a hatchet or machete and make cuts in the bark to improve control. Apply in fall/winter, the trees are usually dead in spring. It'll kill stumps, but not as well as tordon. 

Tordon RTU [Ready To Use] is a diluted form of picloram, mixed with marker dye so that you can tell which stump you have treated. I recommend the little squeeze bottles from Permagreen for application: 

http://www.ride-onspreader.com/magnum/default.aspx?id=3&aid=5&index=4

They can be used to spread one pint onto 500sq.ft. of turf, or an awful lot of stumps. Small, convenient, effective.


I have stopped using Tordon RTU because it costs too much. Mix your own RTU with Tordon 22k (about 4:1 with water) add cheap marker dye, and you cut your costs by 50%. At about $45 per gallon for RTU, that is a big savings for just adding water. Recently, I discovered a generic version of tordon 22k called "Trooper". Same picloram, but at 2/3rd the expense.

I have 120 gallons of the stuff in my chemical storage area. I'll be using it to kill trees in roadside right-of-ways.


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## VTclimber

So back on topic....

I'm a female who no longer does pro tree work, but did for a year. I worked for the big B and did quite a bit of climbing. I worked the saw in the tree and on the ground. Did IPM in the summers, climbing and groundwork in the winter/fall. It was good work, but beat me up quite a bit. I'm a little smaller than Bermie, so I have more of a problem with bigger saws.

Now I work for the state parks, and a saw is still part of my gear. I'm proud to say that I'm better than most of the men with a saw, and I like to see the surprised looks on their faces. Still do some side work for friends and family, but the hubby usually handles the climbing unless its something small and flexy.

Where there's a will, theres a way. We just might do it a little differently than you guys.


----------



## Mapleman

Thanks for chiming in, Lauryn...


----------



## B-Edwards

Bermie, just wondering if you know a couple by the name of Herb & Lynn Stoots who spend winters there? I dont know if they own property there or rent. If they own I know they are having tree work done.


----------



## Bermie

B-Edwards said:


> Bermie, just wondering if you know a couple by the name of Herb & Lynn Stoots who spend winters there? I dont know if they own property there or rent. If they own I know they are having tree work done.



Can't say as I do...though if they own, tell 'em to look up Tree Care & Training if they don't already have a tree surgeon! 
Quite a few folks who winter here have condo's or fractional ownership, so they aren't necessarily the ones deciding to have tree work done.

Hey VT, if you are smaller than me, you must be teensy, 'cause I'm tiny! Got to love it when a girl shows up and can out cut the guys! Good on you!

Pdql - I agree with your herbicide info...when I use Garlon, I only mix it with water, can't handle the smell and slop with the diesel mix. We have to be really careful with the Tordon, can't put it on stumps that are too close to desirable vegetation, the root exudates really do have an 'off target' effect on some species.


----------



## pdqdl

Slight mis-perception there: The Tordon is not exuded by the stump, but the tordon is residual in the soil. So if you put enough down to kill a whole lot of trees...it will. Even if it is just a residual amount in the soil. It isn't like roundup, and most people over-apply, distrusting how well it works.

One quart per acre of tordon 22k can wipe out an acre of trees. That would be one gallon of Tordon RTU spread out over an area 208' x 208'. Resistant varieties of trees are usually taken out at 2 quarts per acre of 22k.

The only thing that I know of that is worse for trees is a soil sterilant called Spike. It gets trees for YEARS, and lingers in the deeper layers of soil.


----------



## Raymond

pdqdl said:


> Slight mis-perception there: The Tordon is not exuded by the stump, but the tordon is residual in the soil. So if you put enough down to kill a whole lot of trees...it will. Even if it is just a residual amount in the soil. It isn't like roundup, and most people over-apply, distrusting how well it works.
> 
> One quart per acre of tordon 22k can wipe out an acre of trees. That would be one gallon of Tordon RTU spread out over an area 208' x 208'. Resistant varieties of trees are usually taken out at 2 quarts per acre of 22k.
> 
> The only thing that I know of that is worse for trees is a soil sterilant called Spike. It gets trees for YEARS, and lingers in the deeper layers of soil.


Tordon? That that pretty blue stuff? Man I haven't seen that #### for 20 years.


----------



## Bermie

Yes, that pretty blue stuff...stinky too!

I'll read the label again, pretty sure it metioned getting onto the soil via root exudate as well as spillage being persistant in the soil. It also said its phyto toxic for up to one year in the soil, and transportable in runoff water...its good, but you have to be careful!

Here's another climbing pic to keep us on topic!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

> and NO you lot, I am not posting any pictures!



Dang, I was hoping for some forearm shots


----------



## pdqdl

Regarding tordon: Bermie gets HUGE BIG BONUS POINTS for observing that treated trees do excrete this product enough to affect nearby trees. Page 3, lower right column of 22K label below. (I stand my ground on my statement "Tordon is not exuded by the stump". Once treated, the stump doesn't exude much of anything, cause it is dead. The _excretion_ of the product by treated tree seems to be a different issue.)


So not only do the girls climb trees and carry chainsaws, they can read, think, and remember too!

Label for Tordon 22k
Label for Tordon RTU

This is great reading for those of you that might wish to become a licensed applicator. Otherwise, it might hurt your head. [when you fall asleep at the keyboard]


----------



## Mapleman

Bermie, 

Is that a monkey puzzle tree?


----------



## Bermie

Mapleman said:


> Bermie,
> 
> Is that a monkey puzzle tree?



Type of...Norfolk Island Pine 'Aurucaria somethingorotherum...excelsa I think.

Pdql...just to wring the last possible debate out of the Tordon...think about it, a freshly cut stump, the 'water column' has collapsed, the stump is not yet dead, indeed stumps would sprout epicormics if we didn't treat them to kill them, so there is well the chance that there is 'leakage' out through the roots for a period of time very soon after cutting, and we put the chemical on it as soon as possible after cutting...???
PS thanks for the bonus points!


----------



## pdqdl

All your points are aknowledged as correct, BUT...

If a proper dose of chemical is applied to the cambium ring on the tree, then it is translocated far enough to kill the sparks of life out of the underground portions of the tree. When this occurs, the dosage of the chemical per unit of area is dramatically reduced, thereby diluting the concentration available for uptake by the neighboring trees.

Keep in mind that the majority of the absorbed chemical must remain inside the treated stump, so after root zone dispersal and it's consequent dilution, there is no way the tordon will hurt adjacent trees unless you put too much on the stump.

Now if you are broadcasting large volumes of chemical, and you have a heavily treated tree, I can see how it might leak enough chemical in the process of dying to affect an adjacent tree.

Myself, I have never seen the claimed "excretion" doing damage to adjacent plants. How could you possibly tell? Unless you were injecting the herbicide, there would always be more product available to move "off target" and potentially get non-target trees.

I probably do more spraying of tordon than most anyone you will find (except those utility ROW guys), and I respect the stuff quite a bit. But I'm not afraid to treat stumps with it, for fear of killing the neighbors tree.


----------



## Bermie

Ok, so now we have totally derailed this thread...I am finding this a very interesting discussion!

As my primary use for Tordon is to kill stumps in nature reserves, often where the stumps are right in the middle of desirable native vegetation, any clarification by an experienced user is great stuff. I also am a certified pesticide applicator (UK qualification)

So...I use the RTU, with the pull up dribble spout, and dribble it around the cambium ring. There is no accurate way to measure it out, once around and you're done. I am always very careful to avoid spillage down the outside of the stump into the soil. 
So are you saying that if (suppose) I over apply by going around the stump again, then that is when the off target damage may occur, by 'overloading' the stump, or indeed if any product gets in the soil and is transported in soil water or runoff as I would expect.

I would like to get to the bottom of this, often there are volunteers and even inexperienced employees applying this stuff, and I would like to write a 'cheat sheet' for them on correct application procedure, as almost none of them bother to read the label, and indeed the label quickly becomes contaminated as inevitably product seeps down from the dribble cap. Garlon is a restricted use herbicide (I got mine!) and Tordon is available 'over the counter', and appears to the uninitiated a simple product to use.

As I said, interesting discussion, thanks...sorry everyone else, its the pdql and Bermie herbicide show!

Oh yes, I have seen surinam cherry in proximity to treated stumps looking very ragged after application, in my own garden and the neighbours. Others have told me of nearby ferns being affected (not entirely surprising)


----------



## treeseer

Bermie said:


> ...its the pdql and Bermie herbicide show!



opcorn:


----------



## Bigus Termitius

Well, you could always "go green" and do it the old fashion way.


----------



## Glennak

I saw a Hawthorn hedge die from Elm suckers being painted with Tordon. This probably happened via root grafts. In a small country town in Victoria (Aus) many years ago council workers were told to paint the stumps of Elm suckers with spray strength roundup. They new better and used full strength to bad for the street trees.
Getting back on thread I have employed 5 women over the years only one was any good as a climber but most were very consistent workers. One in particular was very good at keeping the blokes working well.


----------



## Bermie

Bigus Termitius said:


> Well, you could always "go green" and do it the old fashion way.



Unfortunately its a trade off, with the sheer volume of work, the area and accessibility, we can't afford to keep going back over and over again to deal with resprounts. 
This conversation had got me rethinking the whole tordon thing in the reserves, it may be better to go back to garlon and find a better applicator for it.
Now here's a side story with garlon/diesel...on a really hot day it can volatise, and the VAPOUR can kill off target species, how's that then!

Here's another picture to keep us on topic...


----------



## Bigus Termitius

Bermie said:


> Unfortunately its a trade off, with the sheer volume of work, the area and accessibility, we can't afford to keep going back over and over again to deal with resprounts.
> This conversation had got me rethinking the whole tordon thing in the reserves, it may be better to go back to garlon and find a better applicator for it.
> Now here's a side story with garlon/diesel...on a really hot day it can volatise, and the VAPOUR can kill off target species, how's that then!
> 
> Here's another picture to keep us on topic...



Doing the right thing for the environment isn't always, cheap, easy, or convenient. Nor can you afford to lose and/or replace off target species.

You see....

...I'm just pulling your rope. 

Actually, I grew up on a farm, and I can tell you all too well the difference between manual, mechanical, and chemical. I also used to be a commercial chemical applicator where I sprayed all kinds of ungodliness on crops with those monster sprayers.

Now, I'm running a ROW crew during the week on a rather large rural Coop and we brush it on our cut stumps. We've used Garlon, Tordon, and Roundup. We only use diesel mix in the winter. Right now, we are running a Garlon 4/Stalker mix. The rep tells us that it will get it all around here. 

We'll see.

Good pic. I'm convinced someone needs to call Stihl and tell them to give the calendar fluzzies the boot this year and do a calendar with real women doing real work.


----------



## tree MDS

Bermie said:


> Unfortunately its a trade off, with the sheer volume of work, the area and accessibility, we can't afford to keep going back over and over again to deal with resprounts.
> This conversation had got me rethinking the whole tordon thing in the reserves, it may be better to go back to garlon and find a better applicator for it.
> Now here's a side story with garlon/diesel...on a really hot day it can volatise, and the VAPOUR can kill off target species, how's that then!
> 
> Here's another picture to keep us on topic...



That pic, Austrailian Pine??


----------



## pdqdl

Ok, Bermie, I'll break this down to the "proper" application rate.

Let's take an obnoxious tree that has say, a 50' diameter drip line. That equates to 1963 sq.ft. (182 sq. meters). If this tree were to be sprayed with the maximum rate of tordon 22k (at 64oz/acre), that would be equal to .0451 acres x 64 oz=2.88 oz to kill every tree within that area. If that were Tordon RTU, 11.53 ounces would be enough to treat all the cut stumps within that area, at the maximum application rate.

In my experience, a paint brush works well, but a small spray bottle (like a windex bottle or similar) works better because they are less likely to cause a spill; if spilled, they don't loose a lot of chemical, and the operator is less likely to overapply an area compared to a one gallon pump-up sprayer.

I think 1/2 to one ounce of Tordon RTU is enough to kill all but the biggest of stumps, and there is probably no need to fear death among the neighboring plants. Just spritz the outer ring until it is blue, then stop. No runoff required. (adding a really good surfactant will increase effectiveness without increasing risk)


----------



## Kate Butler

tree MDS said:


> That pic, Austrailian Pine??



Yep, Australian pine - considered (nowadays) to be an exotic invasive, but planted as hedging and/or property line delineations years ago in the Tropics.

I've seen them 100' tall and they are some scare-y. They are just so much taller than almost anything else (though some of the Norfolk Island pines can get close).


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

pdqdl said:


> I think 1/2 to one ounce of Tordon RTU is enough to kill all but the biggest of stumps, and there is probably no need to fear death among the neighboring plants. Just spritz the outer ring until it is blue, then stop. No runoff required. (adding a really good surfactant will increase effectiveness without increasing risk)



I've heard that, on big stumps, you do not need to coat the entire ring, just above the major roots.

At least one guy i know uses a small sprayer that is ml graduated, so he can record usage vs effectiveness.


----------



## pdqdl

JPS: I would love to hear how much he applies. Sadly, I have never measured. I just put on a little, and move on. I even use the pump up sprayers sometimes, as they are so much easier. 

Usually, if we are in sensitive area, we just use the stump grinder.


----------



## Bermie

Yes, Casuarina (Australian Pine) a big invasive problem here...find me near the top of THIS one!

Pdql...thanks for the interesting discussion, I've enjoyed it. I actually stopped by one of the reserves today where I used tordon on the stumps deep among the native plants about three weeks ago. No evidence of any off target damage, I'm happy to say, so all is going well!

Bigus, oops, I feel the rope tugging now!


----------



## pdqdl

It's probably too early to detect the damage from the exuding RTU! 

Let me know in 6 months.opcorn:


----------



## fishercat

*they still make Spike?*



pdqdl said:


> Slight mis-perception there: The Tordon is not exuded by the stump, but the tordon is residual in the soil. So if you put enough down to kill a whole lot of trees...it will. Even if it is just a residual amount in the soil. It isn't like roundup, and most people over-apply, distrusting how well it works.
> 
> One quart per acre of tordon 22k can wipe out an acre of trees. That would be one gallon of Tordon RTU spread out over an area 208' x 208'. Resistant varieties of trees are usually taken out at 2 quarts per acre of 22k.
> 
> The only thing that I know of that is worse for trees is a soil sterilant called Spike. It gets trees for YEARS, and lingers in the deeper layers of soil.



i haven't seen it in years.i could really use some right now.i know they used to use it on rail road beds.


----------



## Mapleman

Jeezum,

why not just use rock salt or chlorox instead of all these toxins? Haven't we done enough to Gaia already?


----------



## tree md

Mapleman said:


> Jeezum,
> 
> why not just use rock salt or chlorox instead of all these toxins? Haven't we done enough to Gaia already?



That's what I tell customers who don't want to pay for stump grinding, to use rock salt. To tell the truth, I have never treated one with rock salt, just heard the old timers swear by it and tell customers they may have luck with it. I am curious, does it really work?


----------



## Mapleman

Dunno--I tell customers the same thing, just season the sucker. Chlorox works for sure.


----------



## Raymond

fishercat said:


> i haven't seen it in years.i could really use some right now.i know they used to use it on rail road beds.


Spike I used that stuff too. Man that had to be over 20 years ago.
I liked the way it smelled. I wonder what it would taste like on toast?


----------



## Bigus Termitius

Bermie said:


> Bigus, oops, I feel the rope tugging now!




LOL! Yeah, that usually means one of two things....either I'm joking with you about something, or, on a more serious note, it's time for lunch.


----------



## pdqdl

fishercat said:


> i haven't seen it in years.i could really use some right now.i know they used to use it on rail road beds.



Yes. Commonly available, usually in a granular application. 20lb. bags is what I have bought, treats up to 2 acres, as I recall.

In fact, I have a fence line I need to treat with that. Spike sucks as a soil sterilant, but it has great residual for killing deep rooted trees. So it's perfect for a fence line next to a highway Right-of-Way, in front of some billboards. 

The billboard companies hate trees, and they are usually in the awkward position of not wanting to pay for labor to cut the trees or have the public perception of killing the trees, either. They are not that popular with the public, anyway.


----------



## pdqdl

I wonder why you guys think salt or chlorox is any less toxic to "gaia" than a much smaller dose of a herbicide specifically labelled and approved for that use?

Chlorox is almost as deadly as bromine fumigant, and it kills _everything._ That fact that you are accustomed to finding it in your laundry does not make it any safer.

Salt is not toxic except in larger concentrations. So take Bermie's example of preserving native fauna: should we kill a targeted invasive plant, or just do a "scorched earth" treatment of killing everything within 10 feet of the undesirable stump? I can see how a salt pile would do more than kill a few plants, that would probably play hell with sensitive animal species as well. Think exotic amphibians, the soil micro fauna, even your basic earthworms. Then it migrates to nearby water like a small ponding area and kills some stuff there until eventually the water dilution makes it non-harmful.

If you think about it, you are fearing the unfamiliar in your ignorance, and using ecologically unsound, un-approved, and more damaging methods. 

Physical removal methods like stump grinding, grubbing out the roots, or killing with suffocation work fine, but they take so much more work.


----------



## Kate Butler

pdqdl said:


> I wonder why you guys think salt or chlorox is any less toxic to "gaia" than a much smaller dose of a herbicide specifically labelled and approved for that use?
> 
> Chlorox is almost as deadly as bromine fumigant, and it kills _everything._ That fact that you are accustomed to finding it in your laundry does not make it any safer.
> 
> Salt is not toxic except in larger concentrations. So take Bermie's example of preserving native fauna: should we kill a targeted invasive plant, or just do a "scorched earth" treatment of killing everything within 10 feet of the undesirable stump? I can see how a salt pile would do more than kill a few plants, that would probably play hell with sensitive animal species as well. Think exotic amphibians, the soil micro fauna, even your basic earthworms. Then it migrates to nearby water like a small ponding area and kills some stuff there until eventually the water dilution makes in non-harmful.
> 
> If you think about it, you are fearing the unfamiliar in your ignorance, and using ecologically unsound, un-approved, and more damaging methods.
> 
> Physical removal methods like stump grinding, grubbing out the roots, or killing with suffocation work fine, but they take so much more work.



You've summed up what I've been thinking since the words 'Clorox' and 'salt' were introduced to the thread. Those of us who are certified applicators know this, but some seem to think that cheaper is better - whether because the cost is less or because it is a common household product and readily available. Regardless, if we are certified applicators we are REQUIRED to follow label instructions and we should be making the effort to use the least toxic chemical that will get the job done.


----------



## pdqdl

Heck, at $66 per gallon for generic tordon, I spend less than a dollar on killing the biggest tree stump you can find around here. 

How much for 10 pounds of rock salt? And do you really KNOW it will work?



?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Who would have ever figured we would end up here, having started this thread considering looking at girls humping their way up a tree with a chainsaw?

To be honest, I don't mind derailing this thread anyway, as I thought it a bit demeaning.


----------



## Bermie

A least we ascend trees with grace and style, and flit about lightly dispensing care and attention ...not great grunting popping bulging forearms and lashings of sweat and bad language and cigarettes or roaches hanging from lips...oke::sword:

It's all good...


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

tree md said:


> That's what I tell customers who don't want to pay for stump grinding, to use rock salt. To tell the truth, I have never treated one with rock salt, just heard the old timers swear by it and tell customers they may have luck with it. I am curious, does it really work?



In WI that type of advise can get you in trouble with the DNR. Professional advise for of label/non-labeled pesticide use.


----------



## pdqdl

*A friendly suggestion for you non-applicator types*

I have never tried this, but I'll bet it would work. It will certainly accelerate decay of the stump, and probably will be lethal as well as ecologically safe.

Drill 3/4" holes all over the surface of the stump. Make them at least 6" deep. Fill with urea, a cheap fertilizer. Ammonium sulfate might work better. Cap with parafin, playdough, something non-toxic and waterproof.

The high nitrogen content will accelerate the decay of the stump. If enough is injected, it will probably kill the stump as well. This should be safe for the rest of the area, too.

[Ammonium nitrate would work best, especially if mixed 5% with diesel and ignited with a blasting cap

Really, really, startlingly fast results.]


----------



## pdqdl

Bermie said:


> A least we ascend trees with grace and style, and flit about lightly dispensing care and attention ...not great grunting popping bulging forearms and lashings of sweat and bad language and cigarettes or roaches hanging from lips...oke::sword:
> 
> It's all good...



Shucks, Bermie. I don't use bad language, and I don't smoke. Roaches of any kind are completely unwelcome on my lips. And...my forearms probably don't bulge nearly enough to rate any comment either.

You can see me here: http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1177674&postcount=2

As to grace, style, and flitting: I don't have much of that, either. If it's any consolation, I hardly sweat at all, even in the worst of heat. I'll beat nearly anybody on a long stretch in the heat without any water.


----------



## asthesun

Bermie said:


> A least we ascend trees with grace and style, and flit about lightly dispensing care and attention ...not great grunting popping bulging forearms and lashings of sweat and bad language and cigarettes or roaches hanging from lips...oke::sword:
> 
> It's all good...



all the girls i have met that climb are like that actually, not exactly wife material, more like boyfriend material... i can see bu the pics that thats not you tho. keep it up


----------



## Mapleman

Kate Butler said:


> You've summed up what I've been thinking since the words 'Clorox' and 'salt' were introduced to the thread. Those of us who are certified applicators know this, but some seem to think that cheaper is better - whether because the cost is less or because it is a common household product and readily available. Regardless, if we are certified applicators we are REQUIRED to follow label instructions and we should be making the effort to use the least toxic chemical that will get the job done.




I haven't done any scientific tests or anything, but I'd be willing to bet Chlorox dissipates quicker in the environment and has a shorter "half life" than the toxins you all are talking about. I like the idea of using urea, fertilizer, and whatever that someone suggested. Just because you're licensed to use toxins doesn't mean their toxicity is lessened, it's still toxic. Check out what DDT did to the shells of birds like pelicans. Read "Silent Spring" by Rachael Carson.

It's fine if you want to use that stuff. Just don't try to sell the idea that because you took some courses about applying it, it is somehow not a deadly toxin like agent orange, that no matter how careful you are with it, it's not going to seep into places it shouldn't be. 

Personally, I use---nothing to kill stumps, shoots or weeds except old fashion muscle grease. Grind it, pull it, and cut it. Too bad for the folks whose sense of aesthetics is hurt by looking at weeds. Why not just pave over it and be done with it? 

I'd rather eat an apple with a worm hole, than one sprayed with alar.


----------



## Mapleman

Mapleman said:


> Ahhh, there's nothing finer than to be on the ground at the base of the trunk, looking up and seeing a woman body thrust up a rope. I've taught several women to recreational climb. I love seeing those hips and butt thrusting up the tree...
> 
> I've also worked with several women. I met Trish in Healdsberg, CA, carving up a Doug fir with a big Huskie and a 28" or 32" bar. She met her man climbing for pinecones in the Sierras. But I've yet to see a woman working with a running chain saw in a tree. I came across an outfit in the Raleigh area that had a woman climber who was reputed to be a good take down artist and pruner, but I never saw her work.
> 
> Anyone out there have stories of women working in trees? This thread could get real interesting if we allow it to delve out of the PG arena.





Well this is how it started out...


----------



## mckeetree

Kate Butler said:


> You've summed up what I've been thinking since the words 'Clorox' and 'salt' were introduced to the thread. Those of us who are certified applicators know this, but some seem to think that cheaper is better - whether because the cost is less or because it is a common household product and readily available. Regardless, if we are certified applicators we are REQUIRED to follow label instructions and we should be making the effort to use the least toxic chemical that will get the job done.



Exactly.


----------



## Mapleman

Mapleman said:


> I haven't done any scientific tests or anything, but I'd be willing to bet Chlorox dissipates quicker in the environment and has a shorter "half life" than the toxins you all are talking about. I like the idea of using urea, fertilizer, and whatever that someone suggested. Just because you're licensed to use toxins doesn't mean their toxicity is lessened, it's still toxic. Check out what DDT did to the shells of birds like pelicans. Read "Silent Spring" by Rachael Carson.
> 
> It's fine if you want to use that stuff. Just don't try to sell the idea that because you took some courses about applying it, it is somehow not a deadly toxin like agent orange, that no matter how careful you are with it, it's not going to seep into places it shouldn't be.
> 
> Personally, I use---nothing to kill stumps, shoots or weeds except old fashion muscle grease. Grind it, pull it, and cut it. Too bad for the folks whose sense of aesthetics is hurt by looking at weeds. Why not just pave over it and be done with it?
> 
> I'd rather eat an apple with a worm hole, than one sprayed with alar.




And this is what it turned into.

Jeezum crow, I'm going back over to see what Guido is up to...


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

Which one is you? 



> *Mapleman:*
> I haven't done any scientific tests or anything, but I'd be willing to bet Chlorox dissipates quicker in the environment and has a shorter "half life" than the toxins you all are talking about.



Sodium hypochloride is rather unstable and "decays" into sodium chloride, halite or common table/rock salt. Which is why you will have a white powdery film if you mix too much of it whilst cleaning the floor. I doubt you would have any translocation, and just salt the soil a little bit.


----------



## tree md

pdqdl said:


> I wonder why you guys think salt or chlorox is any less toxic to "gaia" than a much smaller dose of a herbicide specifically labelled and approved for that use?
> 
> Chlorox is almost as deadly as bromine fumigant, and it kills _everything._ That fact that you are accustomed to finding it in your laundry does not make it any safer.
> 
> Salt is not toxic except in larger concentrations. So take Bermie's example of preserving native fauna: should we kill a targeted invasive plant, or just do a "scorched earth" treatment of killing everything within 10 feet of the undesirable stump? I can see how a salt pile would do more than kill a few plants, that would probably play hell with sensitive animal species as well. Think exotic amphibians, the soil micro fauna, even your basic earthworms. Then it migrates to nearby water like a small ponding area and kills some stuff there until eventually the water dilution makes it non-harmful.
> 
> If you think about it, you are fearing the unfamiliar in your ignorance, and using ecologically unsound, un-approved, and more damaging methods.
> 
> Physical removal methods like stump grinding, grubbing out the roots, or killing with suffocation work fine, but they take so much more work.



Great advice and I appreciate it but I believe that it would take a hell of a lot of salt to do the damage you are talking about my friend. People are in the habit of putting out blocks of salt for cattle and deer where I live and it's perfectly legal and acceptable with the DNR here.

I used to be a licensed applicator in a different state than I live now and many years ago. I need to get recertified as I still spray pesticides and need to spray fungicides. I'll be looking for more advice in the future. Thanks for the tip on the fertilizer. If someone don't want to pay for stump grinding I'll usually just leave it at that. I have seen stumps treated with herbicides and kill every neighboring tree as well though.


----------



## Mapleman

pdqdl said:


> Heck, at $66 per gallon for generic tordon, I spend less than a dollar on killing the biggest tree stump you can find around here.
> 
> How much for 10 pounds of rock salt? And do you really KNOW it will work?
> 
> 
> 
> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> Who would have ever figured we would end up here, having started this thread considering looking at girls humping their way up a tree with a chainsaw?
> 
> To be honest, I don't mind derailing this thread anyway, as I thought it a bit demeaning.




I started this thread by saying I like watching woman body thrusting up trees. How is that demeaning? When women say it about men, is that demeaning? When men say it about other men, is that demeaning? It seems we've become so political correct that we can't even state a basic fact of human nature by stating the obvious: that as a full bloddied male I am attracted to certain feminine qualities, ie, the way women move their bodies.


----------



## Bigus Termitius

Mapleman said:


> I started this thread by saying I like watching woman body thrusting up trees. How is that demeaning? When women say it about men, is that demeaning? When men say it about other men, is that demeaning? It seems we've become so political correct that we can't even state a basic fact of human nature by stating the obvious: that as a full bloddied male I am attracted to certain feminine qualities, ie, the way women move their bodies.



I think the idea being brought to bear by this gentleman has something to do with women being *more* than a sex object.

Had you started this thread in some honorable way with respect to professional female climbers and their contribution to arboriculture, with perhaps what maybe attractive about their grace, style, and beauty on the side, rather than a low brow approach, you'd have been better off.

Personally, threads with this intent and those such as "Guido's last attempts at self indulgent attention getting" don't belong in this, a professional forum. 

Howbeit, they have their audience, and that's fine, I'm not suggesting there is no place for it at arboristsite, just maybe "arboriculture related fictional and male chauvinistic ( non-PG ) entertainment" would be a fine subforum for such...right next to axmen.


----------



## Raymond

pdqdl said:


> Shucks, Bermie. I don't use bad language, and I don't smoke. Roaches of any kind are completely unwelcome on my lips. And...my forearms probably don't bulge nearly enough to rate any comment either.
> 
> You can see me here: http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1177674&postcount=2
> 
> As to grace, style, and flitting: I don't have much of that, either. If it's any consolation, I hardly sweat at all, even in the worst of heat. I'll beat nearly anybody on a long stretch in the heat without any water.


Well how cool is that?

Here's a few pics of my cousins birds. She's never had to have them rescued from trees because she keeps their wings clipped. It's a treat for them to go outside with no worries then.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

> I think the idea being brought to bear by this gentleman has something to do with women being more than a sex object.





> I started this thread by saying I like watching woman body thrusting up trees. How is that demeaning?



I was kinda put off my by this too. If there had not been so much response, i would have been tempted to report it.

How is it demeaning? Most guys do not get it that having someone stare at their but or bust all day long *is* harassing. There is a huge difference between admiring someones technique and the way her body moves as she does.

I see it as going back


----------



## Raymond

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I was kinda put off my by this too. If there had not been so much response, i would have been tempted to report it.
> 
> How is it demeaning? Most guys do not get it that having someone stare at their but or bust all day long *is* harassing. There is a huge difference between admiring someones technique and the way her body moves as she does.
> 
> I see it as going back


You're right J.P. not every minute watching a woman is suppose to be sexual. But if she is wanting you to look at her sexually, then it's on like Donkey Kong. Women get that choice and we have to respect that.


----------



## Mapleman

Bigus Termitius said:


> I think the idea being brought to bear by this gentleman has something to do with women being *more* than a sex object.
> 
> Had you started this thread in some honorable way with respect to professional female climbers and their contribution to arboriculture, with perhaps what maybe attractive about their grace, style, and beauty on the side, rather than a low brow approach, you'd have been better off.
> 
> Personally, threads with this intent and those such as "Guido's last attempts at self indulgent attention getting" don't belong in this, a professional forum.
> 
> Howbeit, they have their audience, and that's fine, I'm not suggesting there is no place for it at arboristsite, just maybe "arboriculture related fictional and male chauvinistic ( non-PG ) entertainment" would be a fine subforum for such...right next to axmen.




You're entitled to your opinion...to each their own...there is plenty of other fictonal, male chauvinism and "attention getting" going on in this so called "professional forum," as any casual observer can see.

Also, beyond the fiction, I believe there are plenty of references to work technique, safety issues, etc., if one reads between the lines in the Guido stories.

And btw, maybe you should reread the whole of my first post on this thread. Taken as a whole, I don't find it dishonors women in any way. I'm asking others if they've either worked with or seen women climbers working in trees. Since I haven't, I obviously couldn't have started this thread by alluding to "their grace, style, and beauty." 

Be this as it may, I respect your opinion and the right to object. If I get more feedback such as yours, Guido and friends will pack up and take their gear elsewhere. But then, if you can hold out for a little while longer, there's only 3 or 4 installments left.


----------



## Mapleman

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I was kinda put off my by this too. If there had not been so much response, i would have been tempted to report it.
> 
> How is it demeaning? Most guys do not get it that having someone stare at their but or bust all day long *is* harassing. There is a huge difference between admiring someones technique and the way her body moves as she does.
> 
> I see it as going back



I see it as a matter of semantics...and why should you let so much response deter you from reporting my post?


----------



## Raymond

Raymond said:


> You're right J.P. not every minute watching a woman is suppose to be sexual. But if she is wanting you to look at her sexually, then it's on like Donkey Kong. Women get that choice and we have to respect that.







Hey check it out my signature kinda fits my post.


----------



## Mapleman

TreeCo said:


> Here's more of the same feedback.



You already chimed in several posts back and it was duly noted. If you find the Guido chronicles so unprofessional, don't read it


----------



## Mapleman

pdqdl said:


> Ok, Bermie, I'll break this down to the "proper" application rate.
> 
> Let's take an obnoxious tree that has say, a 50' diameter drip line. That equates to 1963 sq.ft. (182 sq. meters). If this tree were to be sprayed with the maximum rate of tordon 22k (at 64oz/acre), that would be equal to .0451 acres x 64 oz=2.88 oz to kill every tree within that area. If that were Tordon RTU, 11.53 ounces would be enough to treat all the cut stumps within that area, at the maximum application rate.
> 
> In my experience, a paint brush works well, but a small spray bottle (like a windex bottle or similar) works better because they are less likely to cause a spill; if spilled, they don't loose a lot of chemical, and the operator is less likely to overapply an area compared to a one gallon pump-up sprayer.
> 
> I think 1/2 to one ounce of Tordon RTU is enough to kill all but the biggest of stumps, and there is probably no need to fear death among the neighboring plants. Just spritz the outer ring until it is blue, then stop. No runoff required. (adding a really good surfactant will increase effectiveness without increasing risk)





Hey, at least we've got away from the tordon discussion, ehhh???


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

Mapleman said:


> I see it as a matter of semantics...and why should you let so much response deter you from reporting my post?



I've been accused of being over sensitive in my policing of the site 



> But if she is wanting you to look at her sexually, then it's on like Donkey Kong. Women get that choice and we have to respect that.



Often true, but firstly, it has no place in the workplace; no matter who initiates it. A woman has a right to not be surrounded by, lewd, rude and crude behavior. Which I saw this as setting the tone of your post;



> Ahhh, there's nothing finer.... seeing those hips and butt thrusting up the tree...



Secondly, so many guys with egos think they really are God's gift, and find it unthinkable that a woman would not want them looking.

I failed to finish my last post: I see it going back to the Christian idea of offending another person is a sin, it is not so much the words we use, but that we know that the words will rub another the wrong way. 

From a psychological standpoint this is empathy, a mature person tries to understand an others veiwpoint, and is tolerant of that. Which goes beyond "do unto others..."


----------



## Mapleman

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've been accused of being over sensitive in my policing of the site
> 
> 
> 
> Often true, but firstly, it has no place in the workplace; no matter who initiates it. A woman has a right to not be surrounded by, lewd, rude and crude behavior. Which I saw this as setting the tone of your post;
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, so many guys with egos think they really are God's gift, and find it unthinkable that a woman would not want them looking.
> 
> I failed to finish my last post: I see it going back to the Christian idea of offending another person is a sin, it is not so much the words we use, but that we know that the words will rub another the wrong way.
> 
> From a psychological standpoint this is empathy, a mature person tries to understand an others veiwpoint, and is tolerant of that. Which goes beyond "do unto others..."





Point taken...my apologies to anyone rubbed the wrong way


----------



## tree md

I will say this: I have respect for the women who post here in general and the utmost respect for the climbers and arborist's here for their professionalism and skill. I have learned some things from some of the women who post here and would never want to disrespect them in any way. I also have to say that I have a dogged respect for the kind of grit it must take to make it in a mostly male dominated industry. AS girls rock!


----------



## Raymond

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've been accused of being over sensitive in my policing of the site
> 
> 
> 
> Often true, but firstly, it has no place in the workplace; no matter who initiates it. A woman has a right to not be surrounded by, lewd, rude and crude behavior. Which I saw this as setting the tone of your post;
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, so many guys with egos think they really are God's gift, and find it unthinkable that a woman would not want them looking.
> 
> I failed to finish my last post: I see it going back to the Christian idea of offending another person is a sin, it is not so much the words we use, but that we know that the words will rub another the wrong way.
> 
> From a psychological standpoint this is empathy, a mature person tries to understand an others veiwpoint, and is tolerant of that. Which goes beyond "do unto others..."







Who said anything about the work place? 
Dude I used the word respect and everything.

*lewd, rude and crude behavior. *You got the wrong guy boss.
Go tell mom that!


----------



## asthesun

down with political correct garbage. nothing wrong with looking and commenting to your friends. i agree that girls have the right not to be harassed, but i'd hardly call looking harassment, even staring, even though its disrespectful. whistling and saying lewd things is among the things that i consider harassment tho. imagine if everyone followed sexual harassment laws to the letter. then think of how many people met their spouses at the workplace. do you think all those people followed the laws to the letter? if you dont want to be looked at, stay at home


----------



## pdqdl

*Ahhh. At last this thread has ended up where I thought it would go.*

I am surprised at how long it took this thread to end up here: Guys bickering over how to post on AS. 

...With the girls having been run off, not commenting any more. 

Come on back, girls! This particular part of the thread is where we need your input the most. If you don't tell us how you feel, then we are not likely to find out, are we?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

Raymond said:


> Who said anything about the work place?



I thought the thread was about ogling female tree workers while they were climbing?


----------



## asthesun

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I thought the thread was about ogling female tree workers while they were climbing?



guy started the thread TO ogle females in trees/rocks. right proper thread imo


----------



## Mapleman

pdqdl said:


> I am surprised at how long it took this thread to end up here: Guys bickering over how to post on AS.
> 
> ...With the girls having been run off, not commenting any more.
> 
> Come on back, girls! This particular part of the thread is where we need your input the most. If you don't tell us how you feel, then we are not likely to find out, are we?




Isn't the word "girls" demeaning to woman? Semantics...and I didn't start this thread to talk about ogling women while they're working...my opening line was an expression of my appreciation for the female anatomy--GET OVER IT! The thread was started to ask for feedback from those who've worked with female climbers, period.

I've been ogled by plenty of women, and some gay men when I worked in SF--I sure didn't go on and on about it, moaning about how un-PC it is. 

Again, I apologize to anyone who was offended, but I don't apologize for looking at women's bodies with appreciation.


----------



## asthesun

Mapleman said:


> Isn't the word "girls" demeaning to woman? Semantics...and I didn't start this thread to talk about ogling women while they're working...my opening line was an expression of my appreciation for the female anatomy--GET OVER IT! The thread was started to ask for feedback from those who've worked with female climbers, period.
> 
> I've been ogled by plenty of women, and some gay men when I worked in SF--I sure didn't go on and on about it, moaning about how un-PC it is.
> 
> Again, I apologize to anyone you was offended, but I don't apologize for looking at women's bodies with appreciation.



admiring, ogling, to-may-to, to-mah to. again the semantics. excessive 'admiring' is un-PC but i dont think it should be so. i've only met one female climber, she was very butch, honestly if you didnt know her name, you'd swear she was a man. i'm sure she wanted it that way since she liked women (girls).


----------



## Bermie

Boy oh boy, check out for a few days and look what happens!

Ok, my last post about sweaty guys etc...notice the smilies??? I was poking a bit of fun, and I think you all got that ok!

When posting on a forum, one has to be able to read between the lines and make a reasonable guess at overall intent. However this thread first started, and admit it, it got your attention..as one progressed reading the post it did not strike me as overtly demeaning, it moved on quickly to a sensible place and all was okey dokey! 

I will be the first to admit I enjoy looking at the well buffed bodies of my male co-workers, what's wrong with that! Where things get off track is continued oogling accompanied by overt sexual innuendo or direct comments, either where the guys don't realize the demeaning nature of their words because they have never had a woman working with them before or where a deliberate attempt is being made to make a woman uncomfortable. I have heard it all boys!
Working in this world one has to decide where your line is, you need to make it clear from the outset to all where it is and beyond that, it is not acceptable. A female working in this field HAS to expect a certain amount of innuendo, to deny the boys that is not entirely fair in my opinion, just as long as everyone knows where the line is.

Today I started a training course at the Regiment, it is a total boy's club, and certain descriptions of chainsaw parts, when delivered by a female, end up in a gales of laughter and some sideways comments! It's NORMAL! 
I would have to say in six years of teaching (95% of my students are men) and working I can count on the fingers of one hand the men who have crossed the line into disrespect. It is the rare exception rather than the rule.
The VAST majority of men respect the presence of a female and make every effort to self adjust their behaviour, I deeply appreciate any effort, say a silent thank you to their mums and dads for bringing them up with values, and in that am well able to make room for them to cut loose a little and ignore the occasional things that men will say and do, because they are MEN! 

Back to you...


----------



## asthesun

i think most people here are considerate and mature. i think very few of them would disrespect a woman in this field simply because she is a woman, including me. i dont think the opening post was disrespectful at all, nor any that followed. what redblooded heterosexual man wouldnt like to watch a woman working up a sweat in a tree?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

> Back to you...





> ...end up in a gales of laughter and some sideways comments!



Do you use the term crotch, or branch union? I've always been careful not to use "tight crotch" when dealing with women, and find that older men start to giggle when it is used.

With younger people, I've found the best mnemonic for horse chestnut is "big fat sticky buds" gets them giggling all the time. Well I guess that since I'm fortyish now, younger is all relative.


----------



## tree MDS

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Do you use the term crotch, or branch union? I've always been careful not to use "tight crotch" when dealing with women, and find that older men start to giggle when it is used.
> 
> With younger people, I've found the best mnemonic for horse chestnut is "big fat sticky buds" gets them giggling all the time. Well I guess that since I'm fortyish now, younger is all relative.



John, the part about the "big fat sticky buds", thats funny. Thats just exactly how one of my first bosses introduced me and a buddy to the Aesculus. Wher do you guys learn this stuff??


----------



## Bermie

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Do you use the term crotch, or branch union? I've always been careful not to use "tight crotch" when dealing with women, and find that older men start to giggle when it is used.
> 
> With younger people, I've found the best mnemonic for horse chestnut is "big fat sticky buds" gets them giggling all the time. Well I guess that since I'm fortyish now, younger is all relative.



I stay away from crotches...fork, or union.
Today was all about putting grease on the shaft (underneath the needle bearing for the clutch housing) guess what kind of reaction that one got!

Look, its all good, if something vaguely silly helps them remember, so what!


----------



## backwoods12

*female climber*



Bermie said:


> I stay away from crotches...fork, or union.
> Today was all about putting grease on the shaft (underneath the needle bearing for the clutch housing) guess what kind of reaction that one got!
> 
> Look, its all good, if something vaguely silly helps them remember, so what!



i bet more men look to see lady in tree
than look up at men in tree


----------



## Mapleman

Bermie said:


> Boy oh boy, check out for a few days and look what happens!
> 
> Ok, my last post about sweaty guys etc...notice the smilies??? I was poking a bit of fun, and I think you all got that ok!
> 
> When posting on a forum, one has to be able to read between the lines and make a reasonable guess at overall intent. However this thread first started, and admit it, it got your attention..as one progressed reading the post it did not strike me as overtly demeaning, it moved on quickly to a sensible place and all was okey dokey!
> 
> I will be the first to admit I enjoy looking at the well buffed bodies of my male co-workers, what's wrong with that! Where things get off track is continued oogling accompanied by overt sexual innuendo or direct comments, either where the guys don't realize the demeaning nature of their words because they have never had a woman working with them before or where a deliberate attempt is being made to make a woman uncomfortable. I have heard it all boys!
> Working in this world one has to decide where your line is, you need to make it clear from the outset to all where it is and beyond that, it is not acceptable. A female working in this field HAS to expect a certain amount of innuendo, to deny the boys that is not entirely fair in my opinion, just as long as everyone knows where the line is.
> 
> Today I started a training course at the Regiment, it is a total boy's club, and certain descriptions of chainsaw parts, when delivered by a female, end up in a gales of laughter and some sideways comments! It's NORMAL!
> I would have to say in six years of teaching (95% of my students are men) and working I can count on the fingers of one hand the men who have crossed the line into disrespect. It is the rare exception rather than the rule.
> The VAST majority of men respect the presence of a female and make every effort to self adjust their behaviour, I deeply appreciate any effort, say a silent thank you to their mums and dads for bringing them up with values, and in that am well able to make room for them to cut loose a little and ignore the occasional things that men will say and do, because they are MEN!
> 
> Back to you...




Well said Bermie.


----------



## Mapleman

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Do you use the term crotch, or branch union? I've always been careful not to use "tight crotch" when dealing with women, and find that older men start to giggle when it is used.
> 
> With younger people, I've found the best mnemonic for horse chestnut is "big fat sticky buds" gets them giggling all the time. Well I guess that since I'm fortyish now, younger is all relative.




My favorite bumper sticker of all time is:

TREEMEN GET INTO MORE CROTCHES THAN ANYONE

Before we all get our underwear tied into knots, a little antidote:

I had the sticker on my ol' Ford 4WD for years. Once I was at a redlight in Barre, VT. I looked up in the rearview mirror at a couple in a car behind me. They were reading the bumper sticker. She was laughing; he was frowning.


----------



## asthesun

Mapleman said:


> My favorite bumper sticker of all time is:
> 
> TREEMEN GET INTO MORE CROTCHES THAN ANYONE
> 
> Before we all get our underwear tied into knots, a little antidote:
> 
> I had the sticker on my ol' Ford 4WD for years. Once I was at a redlight in Barre, VT. I looked up in the rearview mirror at a couple in a car behind me. They were reading the bumper sticker. She was laughing; he was frowning.



just means she was smarter than he was.


----------



## Kate Butler

asthesun said:


> just means she was smarter than he was.



And I think most of we women would agree that this is the norm and not the exception. (Humor, fellas, don't go all PC on me)

Bermie is spot on - there's a line and it's different for everyone, but we all know when our personal line has been crossed. Then, it's up to us to set that person straight.


----------



## Raymond

This whole thing did get out a line Kate.
Let me say I'm sorry for my part. 

I'm all for female climbers, good luck to ya.


----------



## Kate Butler

No worries - I can dish it out as well as I can take it. None of us would last long in this line of work if our feelings were bruised too easily.


----------



## tree MDS

tree MDS said:


> That blond is a fabulous looking creature indeed.



It wasnt me was it??

Sorry if it was. lol

Goodnight all


----------



## Bermie

Kate Butler said:


> No worries - I can dish it out as well as I can take it. None of us would last long in this line of work if our feelings were bruised too easily.



Ditto that Kate!

Night all...


----------



## tree md

JPS is OK Raymond. A really good guy. I think you would like him a lot if you met him. He, like myself, has been a member here for quite awhile and probably felt that some that he considered friends would be offended by this thread. I kind of worried about it a little myself. The women here bring a lot to the conversation and forum. I would hate to see them feel uncomfortable here and I believe JPS prolly felt the same way.

Should have known they could handle it though. Tree Girls are *tuff*!


----------



## Raymond

tree md said:


> JPS is OK Raymond. A really good guy. I think you would like him a lot if you met him. He, like myself, has been a member here for quite awhile and probably felt that some that he considered friends would be offended by this thread. I kind of worried about it a little myself. The women here bring a lot to the conversation and forum. I would hate to see them feel uncomfortable here and I believe JPS prolly felt the same way.
> 
> Should have known they could handle it though. Tree Girls are *tuff*!


Sorry M.D. I'll let it go. He just rubbed me wrong this morning. 
If you say he's cool, he's cool.


----------



## asthesun

tree md said:


> JPS is OK Raymond. A really good guy. I think you would like him a lot if you met him. He, like myself, has been a member here for quite awhile and probably felt that some that he considered friends would be offended by this thread. I kind of worried about it a little myself. The women here bring a lot to the conversation and forum. I would hate to see them feel uncomfortable here and I believe JPS prolly felt the same way.
> 
> Should have known they could handle it though. *Tree Girls are tuff!*



agreed. wish there were more of them in the field tho. hell, there's more truck driving girls than tree grils


----------



## TreeClimber57

Bermie said:


> Oooookaaaaayyy....
> 
> I guess I have to chime in here!



And glad you did!!



Bermie said:


> We are the exception rather than the rule, and one has to be sensible and know your limits, I see no point in competing to see how big of a saw I can handle all day, work smart, many trees can be conquered with a small saw, and dynamic rigging and physics can reduce a 600lb chunk to something manageable.



Don't we all.. only difference is female climbers likely have the sense to come to reality a bit quicker.



Bermie said:


> And yes, some days the bucket truck is a godsend



Don't we all agree here


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

tree md said:


> and probably felt that some that he considered friends would be offended by this thread.



I've known a good number of people leave this site because it can become too crude. Intelligent, well informed people who have been in arboriculture for decades.


----------



## asthesun

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've known a good number of people leave this site because it can become too crude. Intelligent, well informed people who have been in arboriculture for decades.



shame, that. they should grow a set


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

A couple of them are smart enough to make me humble, they just did not want to deal with the nattering. They were more interested in intelligent, professional dialog then who had a bigger set. 

What you see now is mild to what used to go on a few years ago.


----------



## Rickytree

asthesun said:


> shame, that. they should grow a set



Or they should!!Sorry just had a couple, or a few, or whatever! I agree!!


----------



## Kate Butler

John Paul Sanborn said:


> A couple of them are smart enough to make me humble, they just did not want to deal with the nattering. They were more interested in intelligent, professional dialog then who had a bigger set.
> 
> What you see now is mild to what used to go on a few years ago.



Referencing He11's Kitchen, are we?? It surely amused the He11 out of me. Often profane, sometimes very silly, lots of "whose are bigger" - pretty much a macrocosm of boys, toys, and (sometimes) trees.


----------



## Rickytree

As far as things goes.... Female climbers get my total respect cuz they are built completely different!! Thank GOD for that!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

Kate Butler said:


> Referencing He11's Kitchen, are we??



Before that. There were some monster flame wars that got idiotic. the kitchen resulted from the draconian (for here) moderation that came out of the fiasco.

There were some RCA's here for a little while. Scott Cullen comes to mine. Norm Hall, formerly of Hendrickson TCOT, who trained some of the best climbers I know was underwhelmed. He's at that buzzy place quit often.

I think that other site was developed because some of the guys did not see AS as a viable alternative the the ISA's crappy site.


----------



## treemandan

Yes, I was just checking in to see how bad it was getting. All I can say is that this is tree work and we all take some kind of grief. Today I pinched the living crap out of my nipple using a split tail climbing system. It bruised.


----------



## treemandan

Bermie said:


> Yes, that pretty blue stuff...stinky too!
> 
> I'll read the label again, pretty sure it metioned getting onto the soil via root exudate as well as spillage being persistant in the soil. It also said its phyto toxic for up to one year in the soil, and transportable in runoff water...its good, but you have to be careful!
> 
> Here's another climbing pic to keep us on topic!



Bermie? You married? I think I love you. You need to post more of your work pics. You look great, good pole standing form, awesome stamina, and of course ya gotta be able to keep yor head through it all.

Bermie rocks on
til the break of dawn
cutting down sucker ass tree climbers
like she was mowing the lawn


----------



## Raymond

treemandan said:


> Yes, I was just checking in to see how bad it was getting. All I can say is that this is tree work and we all take some kind of grief. *Today I pinched the living crap out of my nipple using a split tail climbing system. It bruised.*








Sorry!


----------



## treemandan

When I was about 6 or 7 I threw a snowball at my neighbor Charlie Ellis which hit him pretty good. He attack me in a fit of rage and started to maul the crap out of me. My momma came diving off the porch and proceeded to give ole Chuck the beating of his life, she hammered him.
There are girls and there are women, there are boys and there are men. 

Now when Plasmech ( see post "the plas pine") came over to try his hand at treework I smacked him on the tushy and said " loosen up". This did make him more nervous. Why? because he is a boy. Does anybody see my point?


----------



## tree md

I think the point is... You got a purple nurple today???


----------



## tree md

TreeCo said:


> Plasmech....
> 
> Wonder if he's still alive? I have my doubts.
> 
> About your 'nipple pinch'............Hahahahaha!
> 
> I've got holes in all my works shirts from bridge pinches! It doesn't help a bit being hairy.



Hey, that reminds me of a song... I think I'll boogie over to the my music thread!


----------



## treemandan

TreeCo said:


> Plasmech....
> 
> Wonder if he's still alive? I have my doubts.
> 
> About your 'nipple pinch'............Hahahahaha!
> 
> I've got holes in all my works shirts from bridge pinches! It doesn't help a bit being hairy.



I got the pics, he sure was nervous, I tried to help, we all start small. 


Boy I don't envy you, yeeouch man, yeeouch. I feel your pain.


----------



## treemandan

tree md said:


> Hey, that reminds me of a song... I think I'll boogie over to the my music thread!



This can't be good, can it?


----------



## tree md

treemandan said:


> This can't be good, can it?



Like a cow on crutches...


----------



## treemandan

tree md said:


> I think the point is... You got a purple nurple today???



No, the point is that whether you are male or female you are getting ribbed, if someone crosses a line then swing AND I got a purple nurple. ALso, my mom will kick yor ass man. Holy chit, don't piss her off.


----------



## Kate Butler

treemandan said:


> When I was about 6 or 7 I threw a snowball at my neighbor Charlie Ellis which hit him pretty good. He attack me in a fit of rage and started to maul the crap out of me. My momma came diving off the porch and proceeded to give ole Chuck the beating of his life, she hammered him.
> There are girls and there are women, there are boys and there are men.
> 
> Now when Plasmech ( see post "the plas pine") came over to try his hand at treework I smacked him on the tushy and said " loosen up". This did make him more nervous. Why? because he is a boy. Does anybody see my point?



That reminds ME of a time (long, long ago) when my boys were 5 & 7 and a neighbor boy (also 7 and a real troublemaker ) flung a rock at my oldest and opened a big gash over his eye. I swear I never touched the kid but DID give him holy what for. Later that day his mother came by to see me and I thought we were going to have a problem - but, no. All she wanted to know was "what did you say to him, he came home crying and NOTHING his father or I have ever said or done to him has made him cry". She wanted to know for her own future reference. True story.


----------



## asthesun

treemandan said:


> Yes, I was just checking in to see how bad it was getting. All I can say is that this is tree work and we all take some kind of grief. Today I pinched the living crap out of my nipple using a split tail climbing system. It bruised.



i get stupid wounds in tree work all the time. a couple days ago i was climbing and a sucker slapped me in the face while i was smoking, knocking the cherry off. i didnt see where it went so i kept working. a minute later or so i got a little wakeup when i felt if had set on my shoulder and burned through my shirt, burning me. 
a couple years ago i had rapelled down like 100' or so on a figure-8 pretty fast. i stood up and leaned foreward, touching my arm to the device and leaving a nasty burn there.


----------



## Bigus Termitius

treemandan said:


> When I was about 6 or 7 I threw a snowball at my neighbor Charlie Ellis which hit him pretty good. He attack me in a fit of rage and started to maul the crap out of me. My momma came diving off the porch and proceeded to give ole Chuck the beating of his life, she hammered him.
> There are girls and there are women, there are boys and there are men.
> 
> Now when Plasmech ( see post "the plas pine") came over to try his hand at treework I smacked him on the tushy and said " loosen up". This did make him more nervous. Why? because he is a boy. Does anybody see my point?



If you smacked me on the tush on the job and said "loosen up," I'd put "the dan" on his pan and you'd be think "boy," as in "Boy that hurt." Or how bout "Boy, I won't make that mistake again."

Well, maybe, if I'm in a good mood, I'd give you one warning...just one.

I don't get nervous, I get even. I figure if you feel at liberty to pop me on the butt, you've given me the liberty to put you on yours.

No hard feelings, I'll even help you up and say "tighten it up, and save your grab games for the "boys" down at the "Y." 

Then I'd smile and get back to work, cause that's what I'm there to do. 

To me, anyway, it's all about professionalism and perceptions given, even to those we don't think are watching and/or listening. It's my belief we all need to be ladies and gentlemen on the job. Period.

Which is another reason why I'd probably give you that one warning.

A true gentleman has total self control of his thoughts, words, and actions. He's not steered by, nor a slave to his manhood, he's the master of it. There is a time and a place for everything. 

Work hard, play hard.

And that's not to say work can't be fun, to the contrary, just that some "fun" doesn't belong on the job.

Whether or not one has these basic understandings is one of the truest differences between real men and "boys."


----------



## Blakesmaster

I don't know termi, I think a certain amount of butt slapping is necessary for morale. Really, I do. A good amount of ball busting ( sorry girls ) between coworkers can really lighten up the atmosphere. I've had many a customer really ENJOY our antics. I normally let the guys know prior to the job the mindset of the HO and inform them whether we're going "PRO" or having fun. Slapping a grown man on the ass and saying, " Good game! " , watching his uncomfortable reation, and moment of confusion is pure fun, and should be encouraged.


----------



## asthesun

Blakesmaster said:


> *I don't know termi*, I think a certain amount of butt slapping is necessary for morale. Really, I do. A good amount of ball busting ( sorry girls ) between coworkers can really lighten up the atmosphere. I've had many a customer really ENJOY our antics. I normally let the guys know prior to the job the mindset of the HO and inform them whether we're going "PRO" or having fun. Slapping a grown man on the ass and saying, " Good game! " , watching his uncomfortable reation, and moment of confusion is pure fun, and should be encouraged.



its called horseplay. dont touch my no-no zones.


----------



## Bermie

treemandan said:


> Bermie? You married? I think I love you. You need to post more of your work pics. You look great, good pole standing form, awesome stamina, and of course ya gotta be able to keep yor head through it all.
> 
> Bermie rocks on
> til the break of dawn
> cutting down sucker ass tree climbers
> like she was mowing the lawn




Thanks for the song Danman, but you're a good few years too late, I'm taken! 
(oh yes, I can relate to the purple nurple...little springy twigs are usually the culprit oooohhhhowwwch!)

Here is a picture of my truck and my big chainsaw ;-)...:greenchainsaw:


----------



## tree md

Bermie said:


> Thanks for the song Danman, but you're a good few years too late, I'm taken!
> 
> (oh yes, I can relate to the purple nurple...little springy twigs are usually the culprit oooohhhhowwwch!)
> 
> Here is a picture of my truck...:greenchainsaw:



Wow, they would go wild for that saw in the chainsaw forum Bermie!

Your a good sport.


----------



## TreeClimber57

Bermie said:


> Thanks for the song Danman, but you're a good few years too late, I'm taken!
> (oh yes, I can relate to the purple nurple...little springy twigs are usually the culprit oooohhhhowwwch!)
> 
> Here is a picture of my truck and my big chainsaw ;-)...:greenchainsaw:



If thats your saw, don't wanna see your tree


----------



## Mapleman

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't know termi, I think a certain amount of butt slapping is necessary for morale. Really, I do. A good amount of ball busting ( sorry girls ) between coworkers can really lighten up the atmosphere. I've had many a customer really ENJOY our antics. I normally let the guys know prior to the job the mindset of the HO and inform them whether we're going "PRO" or having fun. Slapping a grown man on the ass and saying, " Good game! " , watching his uncomfortable reation, and moment of confusion is pure fun, and should be encouraged.





A little comic relief, levity, and yes, even a little sexual innuendo can really break the tension on a tension-filled tree job.


----------



## Blakesmaster

Mapleman said:


> A little comic relief, levity, and yes, even a little sexual innuendo can really break the tension on a tension-filled tree job.



The main thing I've noticed is to keep the level of innuendo and antics above the level that a 10 year old can understand. Keep the language less than fowl and have a little fun with each other. Plus, you have to know when to switch to the "business" mindset. Having a crew that understands the difference is invaluable.


----------



## tree MDS

asthesun said:


> its called horseplay. dont touch my no-no zones.



Oh, thats good stuff, lol.

Lol!


----------



## tree MDS

asthesun said:


> its called horseplay. dont touch my no-no zones.



Is that how you got turned into a euc man Asethesunboy?? 

Sorry all, its like that cut sitting right there and...waiting..


----------



## asthesun

tree MDS said:


> Is that how you got turned into a euc man Asethesunboy??
> 
> Sorry all, its like that cut sitting right there and...waiting..



wow that really hurts. so much that i think i'll stop doing tree work....


----------



## Adkpk

Bermie said:


> Here is a picture of my truck and my big chainsaw ;-)...:greenchainsaw:



Oh look, Bermie told a joke.


----------



## Mapleman

Blakesmaster said:


> The main thing I've noticed is to keep the level of innuendo and antics above the level that a 10 year old can understand. Keep the language less than fowl and have a little fun with each other. Plus, you have to know when to switch to the "business" mindset. Having a crew that understands the difference is invaluable.




Hang on to crews like that because they're few and far between.


----------



## Mapleman

asthesun said:


> wow that really hurts. so much that i think i'll stop doing tree work....




The trees will thank you for it.


----------



## Taxmantoo

pdqdl said:


> The billboard companies hate trees, and they are usually in the awkward position of not wanting to pay for labor to cut the trees or have the public perception of killing the trees, either. They are not that popular with the public, anyway.



Around here, the DOT likes to put up signs announcing that "THESE TREES WERE ILLEGALLY CUT". You mean those trees on state land between the freeway and the billboard? I'll give you one guess as to who would want to cut those.

I used to have fantasies about going out there with a weather balloon, one of my acetylene tanks, all my welding hoses, and a replacement sign that says "THIS BILLBOARD WAS ILLEGALLY DETONATED".


----------



## Bigus Termitius

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't know termi, I think a certain amount of butt slapping is necessary for morale. Really, I do. A good amount of ball busting ( sorry girls ) between coworkers can really lighten up the atmosphere. I've had many a customer really ENJOY our antics. I normally let the guys know prior to the job the mindset of the HO and inform them whether we're going "PRO" or having fun. Slapping a grown man on the ass and saying, " Good game! " , watching his uncomfortable reation, and moment of confusion is pure fun, and should be encouraged.



To each their own, I can think of, and indeed employ, many other ways to boost morale, have fun, and go Pro.

I don't have any problems with a plutonic slap on the back, a hand shake hug, or what not, just have no use for the butt slapping thing myself.

I don't care if someone wants to slap a guy's butt, as long as my gaydar isn't going off, I'll work with them, hang out, drink a beer, just better they don't slap mine or there is likely to be uncomfortable reactions and moments of confusion that don't belong to me. I'm not talking major damage, and though it may or may not be pure fun for all, I'll buy a round and encourage.  

I'm a good sport, really.


----------



## tree md

Yeah, I've got to agree, I don't go for the butt slapping either. I don't care if they do do it in the NBA or NFL, I come from the generation where we didn't hug each other and didn't slap each others butts on the field or floor (I played sports all through HS). I'm all for having a little fun on the job as long as no ones trying to slap my butt or hug me...


----------



## Raymond

Bigus Termitius said:


> To each their own, I can think of, and indeed employ, many other ways to boost morale, have fun, and go Pro.
> 
> I don't have any problems with a plutonic slap on the back, a hand shake hug, or what not, just have no use for the butt slapping thing myself.
> 
> I don't care if someone wants to slap a guy's butt, as long as my gaydar isn't going off, I'll work with them, hang out, drink a beer, just better they don't slap mine or there is likely to be uncomfortable reactions and moments of confusion that don't belong to me. I'm not talking major damage, and though it may or may not be pure fun for all, I'll buy a round and encourage.
> 
> I'm a good sport, really.


I say we hold him down and sting his ass.


----------



## tree md

Raymond said:


> I say we hold him down and sting his ass.



OK, OK, we did used to hold each other down and give each other pink bellies in football but that was not butt slapping...


----------



## treevet

Bigus Termitius said:


> To each their own, I can think of, and indeed employ, many other ways to boost morale, have fun, and go Pro.
> 
> I don't have any problems with a plutonic slap on the back, a hand shake hug, or what not, just have no use for the butt slapping thing myself.
> 
> I don't care if someone wants to slap a guy's butt, as long as my gaydar isn't going off, I'll work with them, hang out, drink a beer, just better they don't slap mine or there is likely to be uncomfortable reactions and moments of confusion that don't belong to me. I'm not talking major damage, and though it may or may not be pure fun for all, I'll buy a round and encourage.
> 
> I'm a good sport, really.



Would you hire a gay individual. If you would hire a woman and not a gay person (as they may both not be entirely physically capable for all the jobs) is that not discrimination. 

I have had a girl ground for me and 1 gay guy (unbeknownst to me when I hired him) but prob. wouldn't do it again. They both did not work out in the long run.


----------



## Mapleman

treevet said:


> Would you hire a gay individual. If you would hire a woman and not a gay person (as they may both not be entirely physically capable for all the jobs) is that not discrimination.
> 
> I have had a girl ground for me and 1 gay guy (unbeknownst to me when I hired him) but prob. wouldn't do it again. They both did not work out in the long run.




I subbed out with a crew in SF for a week to knock out some stuff they'd backlogged. I think there were 4 maybe 5 guys on the crew--urban lumberjacks through and through, real "testicle" busters all of them. I found out at the end of the week they were all gay...


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

Mapleman said:


> I subbed out with a crew in SF for a week to knock out some stuff they'd backlogged. I think there were 4 maybe 5 guys on the crew--urban lumberjacks through and through, real "testicle" busters all of them. I found out at the end of the week they were all gay...



Queer eucmen; scary thought! Did they have silver duct-tape on their boots like all the others?


----------



## tree md

I worked with a gay climber a few times, years ago, back in GA. I won't mention his name because we called him by the same moniker as one of our more colorful characters on this site (plus I wouldn't call him out in a public forum). He was a very effeminate guy and there was no doubt about his sexual orientation (although he was very respectful of everyone he worked with). He was an uber technical climber (though it took him about twice the time to set up and remove or prune a tree than most) and if you had a question on any aspect of climbing he was the man to ask. I had no problem with him and learned a thing or two from him.


----------



## Mapleman

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Queer eucmen; scary thought! Did they have silver duct-tape on their boots like all the others?





Lol, yeah and their gaffs were painted pink.


----------



## treevet

tree md said:


> I worked with a gay climber a few times, years ago, back in GA. I won't mention his name because we called him by the same moniker as one of our more colorful characters on this site (plus I wouldn't call him out in a public forum). He was a very effeminate guy and there was no doubt about his sexual orientation (although he was very respectful of everyone he worked with). He was an uber technical climber (though it took him about twice the time to set up and remove or prune a tree than most) and if you had a question on any aspect of climbing he was the man to ask. I had no problem with him and learned a thing or two from him.



flamer oakman with OCD.....?


----------



## a sheila

*We are up there*

I am a climber, a working climber. I think it is funny that more women have not replied to this thread. Maybe they got their feelings bruised by all of the " hip thrusting " and such. I did ground work and decided to go for the pay raise and challange of climbing. I am 46 now and only go up a couple of times a week. We are there.


----------



## a sheila

i think i replied to gay climbers instead of female climbers- oops. anywho, i am a female climber. any questions?


----------



## treemandan

a sheila said:


> i think i replied to gay climbers instead of female climbers- oops. anywho, i am a female climber. any questions?



:msp_thumbup: you rock!


----------



## a sheila

I have worked with men throughout my entire career. I like working with guys. Like anything else out there, there are good ones and bad ones. Most of the men i have worked with have respected me. That doesnt necessarily mean that they didnt bust on me or make occasional sexual remarks- it must means that they didnt cross that line that the other ladies in the forum referred to. I am small ( just over 5 feet and 115 lbs) so there are things that i can do better than the big guys and vice versa ( sp?) . I do not have a problem with a big guy lifting a heavy piece of wood for me. When I climb I am strong enough. I did big take downs years ago with a crane. I called the crane the equalizer. It allowed me to take things apart as quickly ( and safely) as the guys. My boss sold the crane  We still are working but we do not take on the big uglies anymore. I currently have my man working with us on the ground. He is the best ground help i ever had. Yeah- you know i am looking at him and loving it. Back to the snappy patter topic. Why not joke around? It does help relieve tension and i enjoy it. I only had one jerk cross the line with me and he was fired because he was also a poor worker and an ass. If he was a great worker we may have been able to get past it View attachment 237449


----------



## NCTREE

Don't work with treemandan he'll drool all over you:msp_tongue: 

You should stick around maybe your presence will help keep the girl fights down


----------



## Adkpk

We have a place in Upstate NY. Where are you?


----------



## beastmaster

I had really wanted my Daughter to follow in my gaff steps and be an arborist. She's in college now and is studying animal behaviorism. She would of been a great arborist, but probably for the best because I'ed of taking a chainsaw to anyone who disrespected her. 
With the new super hand saws and light weight trimming saws these day, I see no reason a women can't excel in this business as a climber. Iv'e seen some delicate looking dudes that couldn't handle a 088 up in a tree still do alright in this industry
My Daughter recently ask for help in a forestry class she took at NUA. I was pretty happy when she texted me a few weeks ago and said,"We got an A". 
Maybe it's the way I was raised, or the fact I was born and raised in So. Calif. but my mind isn't closed by preconceived Ideas. If I was to discriminate, it wouldn't be gender or sexual orientation, but ignorance. Good natured ribbing and teasing though kind of go with the job to a degree and it probably something that should be expected.


----------



## a sheila

Adkpk said:


> We have a place in Upstate NY. Where are you?



chatham/spencertown area.


----------



## a sheila

beastmaster said:


> I had really wanted my Daughter to follow in my gaff steps and be an arborist. She's in college now and is studying animal behaviorism. She would of been a great arborist, but probably for the best because I'ed of taking a chainsaw to anyone who disrespected her.
> With the new super hand saws and light weight trimming saws these day, I see no reason a women can't excel in this business as a climber. Iv'e seen some delicate looking dudes that couldn't handle a 088 up in a tree still do alright in this industry
> My Daughter recently ask for help in a forestry class she took at NUA. I was pretty happy when she texted me a few weeks ago and said,"We got an A".
> Maybe it's the way I was raised, or the fact I was born and raised in So. Calif. but my mind isn't closed by preconceived Ideas. If I was to discriminate, it wouldn't be gender or sexual orientation, but ignorance. Good natured ribbing and teasing though kind of go with the job to a degree and it probably something that should be expected.



I run a husky 338xpt in the air and a 346xp on the ground. I can run bigger saws but for the long haul this is what i prefer. Glad to hear you are so supportive of your daughter. My father was a dr. and he was pretty horrified and disappointed with my career choice. I have a ba from columbia u and i climb trees and drive a small dump truck. oh well. i am happy.


----------



## Adkpk

a sheila said:


> chatham/spencertown area.



Not sure where that is but I don't think it's in my neighborhood. Good luck, maybe get to meet you at a rec climb sometime.


----------



## justme23005

a sheila said:


> chatham/spencertown area.



I'm across the river from you... not far from Albany. :msp_biggrin:


----------



## pdqdl

a sheila said:


> .... oh well. i am happy.



No one can hope to do better, regardless of their career choice.


----------



## Bermie

Cool, this thread got a bump!
Hiya Sheila!
Hard to believe this thread started three years ago, I'm still climbing and cutting, but yes, two or three days a week is plenty!
Pic from a crane removal...I love machinery


----------



## a sheila

*the crane made it good...*



Bermie said:


> Cool, this thread got a bump!
> Hiya Sheila!
> Hard to believe this thread started three years ago, I'm still climbing and cutting, but yes, two or three days a week is plenty!
> Pic from a crane removal...I love machinery



I really enjoyed the crane shots you posted. It brings back good memories. I loved working with our crane ( all except with the add on, jib boom:msp_ohmy. If you dont mind me asking, how old are you?


----------



## Bermie

Hmmmm, the 'age' question! You KNOW the boys are watching.

Awright, here goes, I'm 46


----------



## a sheila

*me too*



Bermie said:


> Hmmmm, the 'age' question! You KNOW the boys are watching.
> 
> Awright, here goes, I'm 46



That is my age too. What do you run for saws?


----------



## mattfr12

Bermie said:


> Cool, this thread got a bump!
> Hiya Sheila!
> Hard to believe this thread started three years ago, I'm still climbing and cutting, but yes, two or three days a week is plenty!
> Pic from a crane removal...I love machinery



Nice pictures. Thats impressive, I've never seen a girl doing crane picks before. Seems like you know what your doing. Keep up the good work.

You ever get any video's of you picking? only reason i ask is it would probably be encouragement for other female climbers that you don't have to be some big burly guy to take down monster trees. and over in your neck of the woods theres definitely a few monsters around.


----------



## mattfr12

a sheila said:


> I really enjoyed the crane shots you posted. It brings back good memories. I loved working with our crane ( all except with the add on, jib boom:msp_ohmy. If you dont mind me asking, how old are you?



Also impressive career choice. very few female climbers in the world. More power to you. Ive never seen another female climber other than you two doing real tree work. the girls at the competitions don't compare to someone actually up in a tree dismantling it.


----------



## Bermie

Thanks Matt...

Sheila, I run 020/200t, 260, and 361. If I need anything bigger I'll borrow it. I was using a 460 this week, really like the extra power. I'm an acolyte of the short bar, a 20" bar will see most trees I need to cut done, bore cuts, reduction cuts, double cuts plenty of wedges...safer than trying to heft a too big power head with a too long bar!
I thought we might be twins or something, same age, size and tree climbers, haha.


----------



## Lucille89Hall

There was a whole controversy of women firefighters. I'm all for equal opportunity, but if physical limitations jepordize safety, ie, not being able to fireman carry a person from a burning building or not being able to run a bull rope with a 600 lb. piece attached, then a line has been crossed.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

a sheila said:


> My father was a dr. and he was pretty horrified and disappointed with my career choice. I have a ba from columbia u and i climb trees and drive a small dump truck. oh well. i am happy.



Got a little college, Folks not thrilled with career choice, Get paid to play in trees at a mature age....sounds like 3/5 of the people here


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

Bermie said:


> Thanks Matt...
> 
> Sheila, I run 020/200t, 260, and 361. If I need anything bigger I'll borrow it. I was using a 460 this week, really like the extra power. I'm an acolyte of the short bar, a 20" bar will see most trees I need to cut done, bore cuts, reduction cuts, double cuts plenty of wedges...safer than trying to heft a too big power head with a too long bar!
> I thought we might be twins or something, same age, size and tree climbers, haha.



That about mirrors me, I have a 385 in the garage, but hate taking it out most of the time. Mostly slabbing a log with my Alaskan mill.

I keep a 12 inch bar on my 020 because it tangles in stuff less. (btw i. 250# and 81" tall)


----------



## Kate Butler

Well, I'm new to THIS party - posted some time back but haven't been keeping up. I'm 64 and try like hell NOT to climb if I don't have to. Still taking down trees, though.


----------



## sgreanbeans

John Paul Sanborn said:


> That about mirrors me, I have a 385 in the garage, but hate taking it out most of the time. Mostly slabbing a log with my Alaskan mill.
> 
> I keep a 12 inch bar on my 020 because it tangles in stuff less. (btw i. 250# and 81" tall)



I still do the same thing, its like a light saber, just shorter


----------



## tree md

I use the lightest saw I can get away with. I use my 361, 20" bar on all the big wood I can. Gonna have to use my 660, 30" bar in the tree tomorrow on a large Oak, as my 044 is down right now, and I am dreading it.


----------



## a sheila

*Nothing to prove*



tree md said:


> I use the lightest saw I can get away with. I use my 361, 20" bar on all the big wood I can. Gonna have to use my 660, 30" bar in the tree tomorrow on a large Oak, as my 044 is down right now, and I am dreading it.



I am past the point of trying to prove anything except that i want to get the job done safely, in good time and with some grace. I can go longer and safer with the lightest saw that will get the job done. My 338xpt has been good to me- but it was a replacement hard won after the first one proved to be a lemon. It had an auto decompression valve ( yes, in a topping saw) that kept screwing up. Pulling on that thing in a tree was wearing me out. After a million emails they replaced the saw and i have had no more problems. My 242, small but my ground saw for many year started to have some problems. I moved up to a 346xp ( gift from my boyfriend) and i have been impressed with its snap. That thing can cut. I belive it weighs maybe a 1/2 lb more that the 242 but has twice the guts. Yes, i am running pretty small saws but they get the job done.


----------



## tree md

I am in my 40's as well (43) and find that the joints in my shoulders hurt after a day of having to use my large saws on the ground all day. Kind of sucks to have to come down out of the tree and run the big saw on the ground but I'd rather do it than turn an inexperienced groundy loose with one of the big saws. It is what it is. I love the days that the biggest saw I have to touch is my 200... Better yet, my hand saw.


----------



## mattfr12

a sheila said:


> I am past the point of trying to prove anything except that i want to get the job done safely, in good time and with some grace. I can go longer and safer with the lightest saw that will get the job done. My 338xpt has been good to me- but it was a replacement hard won after the first one proved to be a lemon. It had an auto decompression valve ( yes, in a topping saw) that kept screwing up. Pulling on that thing in a tree was wearing me out. After a million emails they replaced the saw and i have had no more problems. My 242, small but my ground saw for many year started to have some problems. I moved up to a 346xp ( gift from my boyfriend) and i have been impressed with its snap. That thing can cut. I belive it weighs maybe a 1/2 lb more that the 242 but has twice the guts. Yes, i am running pretty small saws but they get the job done.



Big saws are cool to look at and fun to run. But when your talking 6-8 hours I hate them. I sent my 372xp out to a saw builder to put a ported big bore on it and Muffler mod. Best 250$ you'll spend. I'm pulling a 36" with it all day and it rips with it.

362 stihl has a 28" on it I use for crane jobs. It's ported with muffler mod. And I went up to a 8 pin rim on both saws. 

So I don't carry a 660 or 880 to much anymore. A few times a year. I just had some smaller saws hot roded up so I can pull the big bars with half the weight in the power head. No one can say climbing with a 660 is fun. That damn saw is the reason I had to put suspenders on my saddle.

My guys can't get within twenty feet of me when I'm running that 372 it will make your ears bleed. I put the foam inserts in my ears then put my muffs down. It's way louder t Han a dirt bike.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?wfpt4l


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## beastmaster

Lucille89Hall said:


> There was a whole controversy of women firefighters. I'm all for equal opportunity, but if physical limitations jepordize safety, ie, not being able to fireman carry a person from a burning building or not being able to run a bull rope with a 600 lb. piece attached, then a line has been crossed.



I am kind of stocky and strong, and I couldn't handle a 600lb piece of wood attached to a bull line, unless it was though some kind of braking device ,then even my 22 year old daughter could handle it. So women might not make the best groundmen on clean up if a lot of heavy wood had to be picked up, but I see no safety issues.
I fought wildland fires for many years, and I've seen women running up hills with 50lbs of fire hose, that would kill the average untrained man. I think a well trained women in a emergency situation with her adrenaline pumping could do what ever it took to save a life. I have also seen some unfit men working as first responders that might not be up to the task. The fact is, it isn't so black and white.
I have a niece and niece in law both in the armed forces. My niece has done two tours in Afghanistan in the air force and my Niece in law(married to my nephew)is a master Sargent and did a tour in Iraq with the US Army as a nurse and field medic. I wonder where they stand in this controversy?


----------



## a sheila

*delegate*



beastmaster said:


> I am kind of stocky and strong, and I couldn't handle a 600lb piece of wood attached to a bull line, unless it was though some kind of braking device ,then even my 22 year old daughter could handle it. So women might not make the best groundmen on clean up if a lot of heavy wood had to be picked up, but I see no safety issues.
> I fought wildland fires for many years, and I've seen women running up hills with 50lbs of fire hose, that would kill the average untrained man. I think a well trained women in a emergency situation with her adrenaline pumping could do what ever it took to save a life. I have also seen some unfit men working as first responders that might not be up to the task. The fact is, it isn't so black and white.
> I have a niece and niece in law both in the armed forces. My niece has done two tours in Afghanistan in the air force and my Niece in law(married to my nephew)is a master Sargent and did a tour in Iraq with the US Army as a nurse and field medic. I wonder where they stand in this controversy?



That is why you carefully pick a crew. I dont necessarily need 4 bulls on the same job. If you put some thought into it and there is a decent pool to choose from I would try and have a crew that has a common basic skill set and also some individual specialties. We have had some pretty big,strong groundmen that were great at," Move this over there." and that was about it. Also with all the machinary available we are not doing as much brutal labor. I like to take people on a case by case basis. Hats off to beastmasters brave female kin.


----------



## Bermie

Kate Butler said:


> Well, I'm new to THIS party - posted some time back but haven't been keeping up. I'm 64 and try like hell NOT to climb if I don't have to. Still taking down trees, though.



You GO Kate! When I grow up I want to be like you:msp_thumbup:

I declined doing the felling cuts on a 120'tall, 5' diameter dead pine last week, the stump was too high abouve the flair, too big for my little saws and I'm too small for the 660 with a 3' bar at chest height...sometimes you have to realize your limitations.


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## Pelorus

"We have had some pretty big,strong groundmen that were great at," Move this over there." and that was about it."


Yeah, I can relate to that. My donkey is limited pretty much to feeding a chipper or dragging brush uphill. On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I've had the opportunity to have a Grade 12 student help me recently. She lacks upper body strength, and ain't great running a saw, but is quick to learn new stuff, is polite and respectful, and is a real treat to work with. A hybrid that has her brains and personality, but also the donkey's brute's strength would be ideal. 

I know that I'm becoming more partial to adjusting to the girl's physical limitations, than the donkey's unwillingness to use his brain.


----------



## a sheila

*I hear you loud and clear*



Pelorus said:


> "We have had some pretty big,strong groundmen that were great at," Move this over there." and that was about it."
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can relate to that. My donkey is limited pretty much to feeding a chipper or dragging brush uphill. On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I've had the opportunity to have a Grade 12 student help me recently. She lacks upper body strength, and ain't great running a saw, but is quick to learn new stuff, is polite and respectful, and is a real treat to work with. A hybrid that has her brains and personality, but also the donkey's brute's strength would be ideal.
> 
> I know that I'm becoming more partial to adjusting to the girl's physical limitations, than the donkey's unwillingness to use his brain.



Your last sentence is so profound and enlightened. It is easier to compensate for some small limitation than for a lack of IQ. This is the way of the future- " work smart". If you have a woman that can think on her feet and anticipate what to do next but cannot press 150 lbs I will still hire her over the 250 lb muscle man that is getting ready to feed my climbing line into the chipper. I prefer to use hand truck or skid steer and live another day.


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## imagineero

and on the flipside of the coin.....

There's a whole lot more feeding crap into a chipper and dragging branches uphill than using your brain for most grounding work. Anyone with a brain wouldn't want to be a groundie, it's not an intelligent life choice. The vast majority of long term groundies in aus end up in that position through lack of ambition, alcholism, drug use and some kind of working class ethic. No amount of brains is going to help a person pick up a heavy log, or slog through 10-12 hours of hard physical labour. The tree market is a little different over here though - I've never seen anyone with a mini skidder, and only 2 guys I know in my state have grapples on their chippers. It's all manual work.

I usually run a 3-4 man crew. On that ratio, one of the guys has enough brains to tie knots, let a rope run and run a saw to a high level of skill. One other guy knows how to tie a few knots and can operate a saw without hurting himself. The other 2 can tie their shoelaces with some assistance as long as their tongue is in the right position, and can manage to put fuel into the right hole in a saw most of the time if given instruction prior to each filling. On bigger jobs I have up to 10 guys. On a 10 man crew, 5-6 will be retards, but capable of carrying their own body weight in wood.

See how that high school girl is going for you in a couple years when the novelty factor has worn off.... but she'll be gone long before then if she really does have any brains. Must be nice having a female looking up to you for a change though ;-)

Shaun


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## John Paul Sanborn

Pelorus said:


> Yeah, I can relate to that. My donkey is limited pretty much



But then showing up on time is one of the prime requirements for grunt labor. $13 an hour and a sandwich is a keeper!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

imagineero said:


> See how that high school girl is going for you in a couple years when the novelty factor has worn off.... but she'll be gone long before then if she really does have any brains. Must be nice having a female looking up to you for a change though ;-)
> 
> Shaun



Not necessarily, but then most people do not stay with their first company anyways. How many of those will be telling people what a jerk Shaun was, back in the day 

For me, I am humbled when any bright young mind looks up to me.


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## Pelorus

"See how that high school girl is going for you in a couple years when the novelty factor has worn off.... but she'll be gone long before then if she really does have any brains. Must be nice having a female looking up to you for a change though ;-)"


The high school kid wants to pursue arboriculture in college in two years; she is returning to school in the fall for a couple more Grade 12 credits. The turnover rate for groundies in the industry is high enough that I don't get too excited or take it personally when someone makes an exit for greener pastures. Half or more of the tree companies up here seem to be ex-Bartlett employees who quit to start their own businesses.

As to the second sentence: "Must be nice...", well all I can say is that it IS freakin' nice to be able to explain something to somebody once or twice, and not a third, fourth, 17th time. Having to do the thinking for myself PLUS micromanage the donkey has become a total drag, and brings my mood down. I am sure the donkey feels the same way too, but is unable/unwilling to learn anything. Being able to tie a sheetbend and (more or less) run a porta-wrap is inadequate for the amount of time I have invested in trying to teach him knots, tree ID, etc.
I very much doubt he would be able to differentiate between a maple and an ash, or a pine and a spruce.


----------



## pdqdl

There sure is a lot of well formed thoughts and comprehensive understanding of the tree business on display in this thread. 

I wish that more dialogues at AS went this well. Perhaps the girls would condescend to participate in more threads and then the boys would act better?


----------



## tree md

Muscle and brawn comes a dime a dozen. Good rope handlers and saw men are not so common. competent climbers who are capable of critical thinking, even less so.

The turn over rate for groundies has been high for me in the past year. I had a couple of guys who had worked under me for years but one took another job which I could not blame him for and the other went off the deep end with alcohol. So I have been going through several groundies in the past year. I have a good one now that has quite a bit of experience. He is very good on ropes and can be trusted to run the big saws (although he cries about it  ). Only problem is he is out of shape.

My ideal scenario is to have one seasoned groundy to run my ropes and one or two laborers to drag brush and carry logs. That seems to work out best for me.

Back in the 90's when I was learning the trade and working for larger services they had a similar structure. There was an older guy in his 40's who was a dam good climber but was relegated to working with the younger, greener, up and coming climbers. He had had a serious accident in the past and was physically limited, though he could still climb. His job was to teach the younger climbers, run ropes and make sure they did not damage property or get hurt. He would evaluate when it was time for them to move on to another crew or take over their own crew. We worked a lot of young job corps climbers back then. When you came to work for that outfit you would work for the old hand for awhile then move on and work with climbers on different crews with different skill sets. You might work on the crane crew for a week to a month, then you would work with the technical rigging climber for awhile, then the arborist who would give you a tongue lashing if you attempted to strap on your spikes and look at you like you were a creature from outer space... Then you would work with the bucket crew... Whatever. If you were young like I was they were not about to turn you loose with a half a million in equipment and trust you over million dollar properties. Usually the older climbers were relegated to teaching and bucket duty. I ended up climbing on the secondary crane crew after spending two or three weeks riding around with the owner and climbing while he operated the big crane.

Anyway, on every crew we had an experienced climber, an experienced rope/saw man and a laborer or two.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

I have known a handfull of groundmen who are so good at rope-handling that they are worth the same as a good climber. I often refer to them as ground-captain "listen to him, he knows his stuff." Most of them have tried their hand at climbing, but did not take to heights. 

Quite often when I work in heavy canopy I will rig up 2-3 lines to control loads coming out over structures. You need enough mass to slide the load through, but cannot just let it bomb out. So I end up using a rig line drift line and a tag. There is this guy in Mequon, Lon Skataboo who can run all three off of a GRCS and a porty. Then grab the but to walk it our, while playing the ropes out with one hand. He has been with the same company for over ten years now.


----------



## imagineero

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Quite often when I work in heavy canopy I will rig up 2-3 lines to control loads coming out over structures. You need enough mass to slide the load through, but cannot just let it bomb out. So I end up using a rig line drift line and a tag. There is this guy in Mequon, Lon Skataboo who can run all three off of a GRCS and a porty. Then grab the but to walk it our, while playing the ropes out with one hand. He has been with the same company for over ten years now.



Guys like that are very rare!

I've had a couple of highly skilled groundies over the years too - sometimes they are guys with all the tickets who tried their hand at climbing and couldn't take the heights, but mostly they're guys on their way up the ladder and dont hang around long. I've got one guy who comes and goes... He's truly gifted on a rope which makes my job very easy up in the tree. Having a sense of when to let it run and being able to use momentum can eliminate the need for tag lines pretty often. When you have enough understanding between yourself and your groundie you can usually work out some combination of cuts and rigging that will set the piece in motion in such a way that the momentum will set it down exactly where you want it if the rope is handled right.

Wth my less experienced guys, you end up having to do more rigging work to compensate for their lack of sense. I often end up running at least one of the lines in the tree myself. 

Lots of things can make a good groundie. Being a good sawyer, or good on the ropes goes a long way. Being able to do both makes a guy worth good money to me. I pay extra for good workers to try to hang on to them a little longer, but most will end up starting their own show.

As for the high school girl, if she can't really run a saw and isn't very strong, It's hard to guess what exactly makes it a 'real treat' to work with her. She hasn't been in the industry long enough to be a good hand on a rope, and I'm guessing she doesn't get the stuff powered through the chipper in no time. She must be awesome at raking. 

Shaun


----------



## a sheila

*I agree*



pdqdl said:


> There sure is a lot of well formed thoughts and comprehensive understanding of the tree business on display in this thread.
> 
> I wish that more dialogues at AS went this well. Perhaps the girls would condescend to participate in more threads and then the boys would act better?




This was fun for me- coming home and sharing thoughts and ideas with all of you awwshucks.....I was impressed with what i read.


----------



## a sheila

*just kidding*



imagineero said:


> Guys like that are very rare!
> 
> I've had a couple of highly skilled groundies over the years too - sometimes they are guys with all the tickets who tried their hand at climbing and couldn't take the heights, but mostly they're guys on their way up the ladder and dont hang around long. I've got one guy who comes and goes... He's truly gifted on a rope which makes my job very easy up in the tree. Having a sense of when to let it run and being able to use momentum can eliminate the need for tag lines pretty often. When you have enough understanding between yourself and your groundie you can usually work out some combination of cuts and rigging that will set the piece in motion in such a way that the momentum will set it down exactly where you want it if the rope is handled right.
> 
> Wth my less experienced guys, you end up having to do more rigging work to compensate for their lack of sense. I often end up running at least one of the lines in the tree myself.
> 
> Lots of things can make a good groundie. Being a good sawyer, or good on the ropes goes a long way. Being able to do both makes a guy worth good money to me. I pay extra for good workers to try to hang on to them a little longer, but most will end up starting their own show.
> 
> As for the high school girl, if she can't really run a saw and isn't very strong, It's hard to guess what exactly makes it a 'real treat' to work with her. She hasn't been in the industry long enough to be a good hand on a rope, and I'm guessing she doesn't get the stuff powered through the chipper in no time. She must be awesome at raking.
> 
> Shaun



Maybe the "treat" goes back to the opening line in this thread- maybe she is simply a treat to watch pulling a rake.
So true about the best workers moving on. Guess this is how it goes but the good pay for good work idea i totally endorse.That just make the difference in haning on to a worker that just may not want all the headaches of being the boss.


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## Pelorus

"As for the high school girl, if she can't really run a saw and isn't very strong, It's hard to guess what exactly makes it a 'real treat' to work with her. She hasn't been in the industry long enough to be a good hand on a rope, and I'm guessing she doesn't get the stuff powered through the chipper in no time. She must be awesome at raking."


Um, going by what you wrote, I think it would be fair to say that you and I place different values on an individuals ability to actually process information, and comprehend, and remember stuff. Having worked closely with Eyore (the Donkey) for several years makes me so much more appreciative of a student with an open and receptive mind. As for operating a chainsaw, she has had the requisite courses on safe saw operation (theory and practical), and wears full PPE. Unlike some here, she wasn't born clutching a Stihl, or have one placed in her crib, but such handicaps can be overcome.

Cheers,
Dave


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## Kottonwood

I am one of the lucky few to have a great groundie. No way I would be where I am today without him. He can run ropes, saws, stumpgrinders, skidsteer, work on equipment, etc. He is polite and can talk with customers. He has a clean license and is a good driver. Only problem with him is he occasionally decides to take a day off without telling me. It is the weirdest thing, every month or so he just won't show for a day or two.

Wondering what you guys consider good pay for a groundie. I am paying him 16, if he didn't blow me off every now and again he'd be making 18.


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## Tree Pig

PatriotTreeCO said:


> It is the weirdest thing, every month or so he just won't show for a day or two.
> 
> Wondering what you guys consider good pay for a groundie. I am paying him 16, if he didn't blow me off every now and again he'd be making 18.



So he is either seeing his probation officer or was in your former line of work also.


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## imagineero

Pelorus said:


> Um, going by what you wrote, I think it would be fair to say that you and I place different values on an individuals ability to actually process information, and comprehend, and remember stuff. Having worked closely with Eyore (the Donkey) for several years makes me so much more appreciative of a student with an open and receptive mind. As for operating a chainsaw, she has had the requisite courses on safe saw operation (theory and practical), and wears full PPE. Unlike some here, she wasn't born clutching a Stihl, or have one placed in her crib, but such handicaps can be overcome.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave



Hi Dave,
I'd say we're at polar opposites. I would never employ a donkey for several weeks, let along several years... unless he was employed only as a labourer. It sounds like he is your only groundie? If I was stuck with just one groundie then it would have to be a good one. If I was unfortunate enough to get stuck with a retard as my only groundie for several years then I would probably get excited by a high school student of modest skill who showed some interest in the first few weeks of their employment.

There are people out there who love to talk about work, and understand it. Then there are those who simply git 'er done. All the best employees I've ever had have fallen into the latter category.

cheers(make mine a peroni)
Shaun


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## a sheila

*git'er done vs working and learning*



imagineero said:


> Hi Dave,
> I'd say we're at polar opposites. I would never employ a donkey for several weeks, let along several years... unless he was employed only as a labourer. It sounds like he is your only groundie? If I was stuck with just one groundie then it would have to be a good one. If I was unfortunate enough to get stuck with a retard as my only groundie for several years then I would probably get excited by a high school student of modest skill who showed some interest in the first few weeks of their employment.
> 
> There are people out there who love to talk about work, and understand it. Then there are those who simply git 'er done. All the best employees I've ever had have fallen into the latter category.
> 
> cheers(make mine a peroni)
> Shaun



i realize this is not my discussion but- this last line about the best workers being the git'er done and not talk about it line strikes me as lacking. It is true whether i am on the ground or in a tree and the clock is ticking i am thinking about how long the job was bidded for. With that said, everyday is a day to learn and get better, i will never be done learning. If something goes very well or if there is a glitch i would like to talk about it- to duplicate or to eradicate. 
as a very young ( and foolish ) woman i was handed a pair of spikes which i had never been trained to use and only saw used many times and told to get up there and git'er done- no other talk. I like a complete ass strapped them on and went up that tree ( big sugar maple) Well, i did make it up and managed to do the small amount of work needed in that tree and decended exhausted and with inner bicepts that looked like ground beef from all the hugging i did. You guys are both right - there is a time for calm patient talk and understanding and there is a time to git'er done. They are not mutally exclusive.


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## imagineero

They aren't mutually exclusive for sure, but the more experience you have, the less you need to discuss in order to git 'er done. A good measure of a groundies skill is how much talking I have to do during the day. When things are going well, generally the only thing I have to say is how the next piece is going to unfold and 'clear'. Before I get a chance to open my big fat mouth and stick my foot in it, a good groundie has already fueled that saw, tied a knot in the lowering line and brought it up to me, untangled that rope etc. Great groundies will actually be a step ahead of me, they know what the next take is going to be, and have already figured if a tag line is needed or not. If so, it comes up with the lowering rope. Or when its time to step up a saw size, the saw materialises. 

You don't see a whole lot of talk about the work among true professionals while the job is being done. A bit of ribbing or small talk maybe, the odd tongue in cheek compliment or a bit of sarcasm if things didnt unfold as planned. When people know their job, there isn't so much need to talk about it. 

Afterwards at the pub is a whole other story ;-) 

Shaun


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## imagineero

I'll just throw in there too though, that learning is a good thing. I'm happy to put time into people and teach them skills; it was thanks to others putting in the time that I learnt skills myself. Sometimes its on the job, sometimes it's send home tasks. I've had labourers start without sklls that showed some initiative, and if they keep it up for a few weeks they get a sheet of paper with some knots illustrated and a bit of rope to take home. Manage that, and they got shown how to run a porty. Stick around a little longer, and on a slow day they'll learn how to fuel and start a saw, and make basic cross cuts. A couple have been sent on chainsaw courses, but you got to stick around a while for that. I think training people and passing on knowledge is a responsibility we all have.

Learning is different from working though, and if I had my druthers I'd hire a skilled person over a person who needs to learn given that the two are equally keen to work. 

Shaun


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## Pelorus

I never got that opportunity to learn from someone when I got started back in The Dark Ages, and for the first couple of years I paid the piper (in pain) for my ignorance. Mebbe that is why I just appreciate having the opportunity (it is only one day a week) to show / teach someone who is young & keen "the ropes".


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## imagineero

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Wondering what you guys consider good pay for a groundie. I am paying him 16, if he didn't blow me off every now and again he'd be making 18.



I think it's very variable. Over here in aus, most small tree companies (one crew only) go by the day rather than the hour. A 'day' is 8 hours, and generally 7:30-3:30 but if you finish the job early you go home with full pay. This gives the guys some incentive to get the job done, whereas on hourly pay you're really just passing the time. If you're on an hourly rate and work your butt off you can either go home early with less pay, or do extra work on the same day for the same amount of money you would have earned if you just cruised through. 

Going rate for a full time groundie over here is about $650/week after tax (about $800 before) which is $130/day or $16.25 if you did work a full 8 hour day. A lot of days end up finishing at lunch or earlier which bumps the hourly rate up considerably, but doesn't improve your weekly wage. 

Casual grounding starts at around $150/day for low skilled guys and goes up from there. A first class groundie with no equipment can get up to $250/day ($31.25/hr). The same rules apply for earaly finish. I'll gladly pay $200~$250/day for a first class groundie, it takes so much of the stress out of my day and really reduces my workload. On a crew of 4-6 guys, paying one tope class groundie an extra $100 really doesnt increase the overall cost of the job by that much. The most I've ever paid to a groundie was $350 for the day, but the 'day' was a day and a half (12 hours) and most of the workers could barely move by the end of it.

There is definitely a market (at least in aus) for first rate contract groundies.

Shaun


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## a sheila

with all that has been said by all of us about talking, working and such i must admit that when i work with this one guy that i have worked with for almost 29 years,when we are working we do little talking. i spent a lot of time cutting bunches logs to length in the grapples , working both ends of a winch, grounding, climbing, planting trees, spraying and so forth. i dont move in on piece until i make eye contact with him and he nods. he is looking at me and me at him. i count on him not doing anything dumb when i am it and he counts on me not putting myself in harms way when he is moving. since i grounded a long time before i began to climb i can usually anticipate what the climber needs in the tree. i can also relate to what the grounman is dealing with below be when i am up. i just wish that years ago, maybe on that slow day you mentioned, someone took some time and taught me slowly and patiently. i am good at what i do and here intact today because of years on the job. i watched a guy who started to climb the same time i did throughout his career. while he went to school all week i was on the job. for about 2 weeks i was better than him:msp_tongue: then it all changed. he was learning important things all week and coming home to put them to the test. he went on to start his own biz and is doing great things today. oh well.


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## imagineero

a sheila said:


> i watched a guy who started to climb the same time i did throughout his career. while he went to school all week i was on the job. for about 2 weeks i was better than him:msp_tongue: then it all changed. he was learning important things all week and coming home to put them to the test. he went on to start his own biz and is doing great things today. oh well.



+1 on that. With my best groundie, a lot of the communication is hand signals and eye contact, nods. 

Never too late to start there.... One of the guys I contract climb for is 54. He's signed up to do the climbing course for the second half of this year! Plenty of great videos out there too, can't reccomend Gerry Beranek's stuff enough. Yeah it costs a few hundred, but I learn't more from those vids than I've learnt on some year long courses. 

Stay away from the 'talkers' and find yourself a good climber who gits 'er done every day and see if you cant work with them for a bit. Most are only too happy to spend some time teaching for the right person as shown by pelorus. Two ears, one mouth, and expect to pay your dues in sweat though.

Shaun


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## tree md

You know, I hear a lot of the politicians talk about how low tech jobs are going away and people need to educate themselves for higher tech work. A good thing, no doubt but I disagree with a lot of that philosophy. There is always going to be the need for jobs for the entire spectrum of the population. Not everyone is rocket scientist, doctor, engineer material and never will be. Hell, I'm not. People of the entire spectrum need to be able to work and have a job to feel good about themselves and survive. A man/woman needs the opportunity to have a job, make money, buy a meal, purchase something nice for their significant other/children. I don't look down my nose at anyone who works the ground for me. I have respect for anyone who shows up sober and ready to work. Much more so than someone who sits at home figuring out a way to collect a government check. As long as they are honest, willing to learn and show up sober I'll work with them.

I had a young girl ask me for a job while working in Alabama last Summer after the storms. She wasn't trying to make a career out of tree work; she was just trying to earn some honest money to elevate herself from her living situation. It just so happened that when she asked me for work I had just done 5 Pines and needed to get the rakings up so I could move on to the next job. I put her to work raking the yard and left her there so I could move on to the next one. When I came back she hadn't completed the job but was working her ass off to finish. She was hired for clean up duties after that. I can work with a girl like that any day of the week.


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## Rachael

We exist. There's a lot of women who can operate a chainsaw and hip thrust up trees here. (Canada) 
Most companies don't use SRT yet. Working on that.


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## cupar

My company employee's I'd say 3 great female climbers at our local office, and lots of great female groundmen. (Canada as well)

I've seen my fiancee go 35' up a tree and 65' in a bucket. Unfortunately it's been an uphill battle getting her upperbody strength to use something larger then a 201


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## Rachael

I can use up to a 440 but it's hard at this point lol. 
It's funny being a women using a chainsaw and seeing the reactions of men. Well funny to me anyway. ;P


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## treevet

pictures or it didn't happen


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## cupar

the fiancee is 95 lbs, I'd be ecstatic to see her notch a tree with a 440.


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## since16

demographic said:


> Years ago I went to watch the world climbing competition at Birmingham.
> 
> Climbing there was Isabelle Patissier (who came second)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Lyn Hill (who came first)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets just say that I paid a *lot* more attention to the womans climbing than the mens.
> 
> Issabelle Patissiar was amazing to watch and moved like quicksilver, no wasted effort and all fluid motion.
> I think I fell in lust with her.
> 
> The women in general were a lot more fluid than the men anyway, and they used their feet a lot more, the blokes just grabbed onto things and hoiked themselves up by sheer strength.


Lets see what those legs and arms look like after she trims a pin oak for 2 hours.


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## BC WetCoast

since16 said:


> Lets see what those legs and arms look like after she trims a pin oak for 2 hours.



The same as yours when you trim pin oaks with shorts and a halter top.


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## treevet

Lib/progressives get offended so easily


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## tidy

Rachael said:


> I can use up to a 440 but it's hard at this point lol.



In a tree?


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