# D-Ring strength rating Lineman vs. Arborist



## RichardW (Jul 13, 2012)

I would like some input on equipment.

Why are the D-rings for linemans belts more substantial than arborist's belts. I've seen a lineman's pole strap extension and it's D-ring is even fatter yet - real heavy duty hardware.

I bought my first arborist's belt and the D-ring is 1/16" smaller in thickness and width and overall is smaller than a lineman's. The D-ring on arborist's belts looks kind of skimpy.

Are they all like that? I am having trouble getting used to seeing smaller hardware.


Thanks


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## pdqdl (Jul 13, 2012)

Linemen go up a pole, generally toting all kinds of hardware. Being light and versatile is not so important, and they don't get into nearly the same kind of positioning difficulties. Their equipment seems to be built simpler and heavier, probably for a longer useable lifetime.

Perhaps a mistake on my part, but I think looking and feeling stronger is what sells the linemen's equipment, whereas tree climbers put a premium on light and comfortable.

It's probably just a market trend, rather than something more substantial like safety factors or breaking strength.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 13, 2012)

Just because it looks heavier doesn't mean it's rated for any more weight. The lineman gear is in the stone ages as far as weight and comfort, that's one of the things that has always aggravated me about the trade. You would think a guy could use a cam flipline adjuster instead of this #### buckle system, come on already. When I worked as a lineman, if you pulled out your climbing gear they would look at you funny, "hey guy the buckets right here, lets use that."


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## 802climber (Jul 13, 2012)

I know if I worked as a lineman, I would get written up for rappelling back down the poles.


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## frostedunit (Jul 13, 2012)

It's 2 totally different types of climbing.

When I go up a pole, I might have a gas drill, wrenches, snips, and pole hardware on my belt. Or I might have to pull an 80lb lasher up behind me. Or I might have to transfer a package of cables from pole to pole or up down.

I might be up there for an hour or more, with no secondary tie in point or branches to sit on for a minute or 2. I want the thickest, widest, heaviest belt and safety strap I can afford. 

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2


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## RichardW (Jul 13, 2012)

dieseldirt said:


> I know if I worked as a lineman, I would get written up for rappelling back down the poles.




I have been around electricity/electronics all my life at least since making catwhisker radio receivers when a kid. People get into habits of doing things a certain way and don't think about the consequences. 

An electric arc could cut through a nylon rope in under a second. Have you ever seen what happens to a parachutist or a balloonist who gets tangled in high tension lines. All it would take is a piece of metalized foil blowing in the wind and presto instant arc. I was taught never to wear zippers in my jackets around electrical lines - not to mention wire core fliplines. I even witnessed an flash over caused by snow. 

Good for you about your rappelling. How does that help you working around electricity?


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## RichardW (Jul 13, 2012)

frostedunit said:


> It's 2 totally different types of climbing.
> 
> When I go up a pole, I might have a gas drill, wrenches, snips, and pole hardware on my belt. Or I might have to pull an 80lb lasher up behind me. Or I might have to transfer a package of cables from pole to pole or up down.
> 
> ...



Linemen can't be expected to lift more than 100 lbs on a pole. I would think an arborist would occasionally lift things close to that weight. Their climbing ropes are rated from 500 - 800 lbs. 

Thinking about it now, lineman at times are required to hike out their pole strap and lean back to an almost horizontal position, that would put considerably more stress on their hardware. 

I don't know what the arborist D-rings are rated at. They are probably strong enough but don't look very robust.


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## 802climber (Jul 13, 2012)

Boo hoo, it was a stupid joke. I don't think anyone who actually works on hot power lines is going to go out and try it. :msp_w00t:


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## pdqdl (Jul 13, 2012)

RichardW said:


> Linemen can't be expected to lift more than 100 lbs on a pole. I would think an arborist would occasionally lift things close to that weight. Their climbing ropes are rated from 500 - 800 lbs.
> 
> Thinking about it now, lineman at times are required to hike out their pole strap and lean back to an almost horizontal position, that would put considerably more stress on their hardware.
> 
> I don't know what the arborist D-rings are rated at. They are probably strong enough but don't look very robust.



Regardless of the trade, the equipment is vastly stronger than the person wearing it. It makes no difference how much weight you are carrying, the harnesses are much stronger. Your body will rip in half before you break a properly attached climbing saddle in good condition.

Besides, there isn't a lineman anywhere that does as much horizontal work as almost any tree climber. Let's face it, linemen climb poles and work mostly overhead. Tree climbers climb everywhere, and work in all positions. If they don't, they are probably escaped linemen that think they know how to climb trees. My biggest problem in a tree is those odd positions where you need to bend way over. Then all that climbing equipment and my growing belly gets in the way. Overhead is easy.

I don't doubt that a lineman would typically be stronger on his spurs, hiking out horizontally to service some wire on a pole. Tree climbers typically work close, and we use our overhead ropes for better support. It is two completely different jobs, and it is not surprising that the equipment is different.


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## ATH (Jul 13, 2012)

Could it be that the Ds on a lineman saddle get worn more quickly since that is all they have for support, they are on it all day as where we are using the climbing line and standing on limbs and maybe on the Ds less than 1/3 of the time???


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## RichardW (Jul 14, 2012)

ATH said:


> Could it be that the Ds on a lineman saddle get worn more quickly since that is all they have for support, they are on it all day as where we are using the climbing line and standing on limbs and maybe on the Ds less than 1/3 of the time???



The D-rings should never wear out. They are steel - (forged steel?). They are never loaded to anywhere near their yeild point.

How would they wear out? They don't even look like they rust.


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## RichardW (Jul 14, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Regardless of the trade, the equipment is vastly stronger than the person wearing it. It makes no difference how much weight you are carrying, the harnesses are much stronger. Your body will rip in half before you break a properly attached climbing saddle in good condition.
> 
> Besides, there isn't a lineman anywhere that does as much horizontal work as almost any tree climber. Let's face it, linemen climb poles and work mostly overhead. Tree climbers climb everywhere, and work in all positions. If they don't, they are probably escaped linemen that think they know how to climb trees. My biggest problem in a tree is those odd positions where you need to bend way over. Then all that climbing equipment and my growing belly gets in the way. Overhead is easy.
> 
> I don't doubt that a lineman would typically be stronger on his spurs, hiking out horizontally to service some wire on a pole. Tree climbers typically work close, and we use our overhead ropes for better support. It is two completely different jobs, and it is not surprising that the equipment is different.





Two different jobs covered by two different standard organizations. Could be political, the arborist feels the D-ring has to be rated at x lbs and the lineman need the D-rings to be rated at 5,000 lbs (OSHA1926.959(a)(3))

Can't find the required strength of arborist D-rings. They are not covered by OSHA. AFAIK.


If memory serves me correctly OSHA states that arborists must use dual points of attachment when they are using a chainsaw (actually the standard requires dual points of attachment at all times the arborist feels advantageous). 
Now it looks like the arborist is counting dual points of attachment with 4 smaller D-rings rather than the single point of attachment and 2 large D-rings the lineman uses.

I should have checked with OSHA and ANSI for the applicable standards for each before asking this question.

I also noticed that the proposed ANSI standard for arborists require them to be secured at all times. Whereas there are many lineman who were taught to only free climb.


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## ATH (Jul 14, 2012)

RichardW said:


> The D-rings should never wear out. They are steel - (forged steel?). They are never loaded to anywhere near their yeild point.
> 
> How would they wear out? They don't even look like they rust.


I am thinking more metal (clips) on metal (Ds) back and forth back and forth in the same spot for hours a day. Not loading...just rubbing thinner a fraction of a micrometer at a time adds up over lots of time. Like I said...I don't know that is why...just throwing out a possibility like everybody else.


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## RichardW (Jul 14, 2012)

ATH said:


> I am thinking more metal (clips) on metal (Ds) back and forth back and forth in the same spot for hours a day. Not loading...just rubbing thinner a fraction of a micrometer at a time adds up over lots of time. Like I said...I don't know that is why...just throwing out a possibility like everybody else.



Maybe if the metal clip was built like a file. But I think the specs require that hardware to be smooth (that would help if your running a rope through them) . There is something about certain aluminum caribiners having impact senstivity and will crack if dropped onto cement. Of course rubbing on cement will wear them down but that usually occurs with climbers.

I still can not find the ANSI specs for the strength of arborist's D-rings, one manufacturer claims they need to be rated at least 5000 lbs or more but he did not reference a governing authority.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Jul 14, 2012)

I climb on the old heavy bunkingham wide back sling 4 big d saddle, been meaning to up grade to a bridge saddle, but love the big D's for alternating lanayard climbs, as you can click with out looking with snaps, but it is heavy and combersom, and that occasional busted funny bone on the big D on a hand saw back stroke sucks plus pinches your hips on turn arounds and spread steps, makes sense thet they evolved to lighter and stronger setups, I think ANSI requires all lifesupport rings,D's, snaps, carabiners etc to be rated at 5400lbs, and the D's do rust gear bag got rained on and D's had serface rust on following monday.
Paul


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## tramp bushler (Aug 1, 2012)

Today was the very first time in my life I ever heard there was a law or rule that 2 means of attachment had to be used when running a saw in a tree. And I've been topping since 82 .maybe 83 . 
I guess it makes sense. The steel on steel from a Lineman's snaps to their D rings would cause a lot of wear to the aluminum Ds on an arborists saddle.

What linemen and loggers have used for decades has worked and continues to work great. But they climb down the reverse of how they climbed up.


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## limbwalker71 (Aug 14, 2012)

RichardW said:


> Maybe if the metal clip was built like a file. But I think the specs require that hardware to be smooth (that would help if your running a rope through them) . There is something about certain aluminum caribiners having impact senstivity and will crack if dropped onto cement. Of course rubbing on cement will wear them down but that usually occurs with climbers.
> 
> I still can not find the ANSI specs for the strength of arborist's D-rings, one manufacturer claims they need to be rated at least 5000 lbs or more but he did not reference a governing authority.



revised section 8.1.11 statse they have to be 5000lbs , so I think the manufacturer prob goes by the ANSI STANDARDS ,


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