# To spike or not to spike?



## Naked Arborist (Dec 7, 2011)

Here are the questions. A tree service is coming to trim your tree of dead or storm damaged limbs.

1 Is the customer going to refuse you the job if your going to climb with spikes?
Is this tree loved buy the home owner?

2 Do they even care about the spike marks?

3 Are they concerend about the health of the tree suffering? Did they even ask about that?

4 Will spiking a certain species affect the trees health?
Obviously it depends on the tree, time of year, and other factors.

5 Will they be heartbroken if it has a few scars left behind? This is surgery, after all, just on a tree instead of a person.

So, lets hear what all the pros and home owners have to say on this subject.

A. Does this come up in you working environment, if so, how often? 
B. Does it pose a problem with completing work?
C. Do you lose work because of not using other methods to climb instead of spikes?

If this post would get more feedback in other threads on this forum feel free to quote me and re-post it there as well. Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated.


Thank You


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## sawinredneck (Dec 7, 2011)

What he said! And I'm a hack!


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## Urban Forester (Dec 7, 2011)

Most homeowners don't know spikes from a '57 Chevy. Spikes CAN vector certain vascular diseases, and should never be used on living trees. I have a subdivision that had their Red Oaks "pruned" during the growing season by an "arborist" who told them a) it was ok to prune then AND b) spikes were ok. 8 trees are dying and 12 more are expected to go (by root grafting) from Oak Wilt. Its up to ETHICAL Arborists to educate people as to whats right and wrong (and maybe each other too). Polices/standards and all that other well-intended "stuff" are only as good as the people who USE them. A lot of "Arborists" simply don't give a s---. Which means that sometimes those of us that TRY to do things right are the "boys-at-the-end-of-the-parade (so to speak) cleaning up their messes. I don't believe that will EVER change, and thats ok with me, after 25 years I'm used to it...


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## [email protected] (Dec 7, 2011)

*cottonwoods*

What about cottonwoods, thick barked and short lived to begin with?

I try to limit my spiking unless its windy as #### and after i ask. Most of the time the landowners are ok with using spikes and i try to keep my gashing to a minimum. most of the time i am more comfortable in the tree with my spikes for grip and using a saw....


but i am just a noob soi will take and heed the advice by other climbers, not cherry pickers


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## OLD MAN GRINDER (Dec 7, 2011)

I do stumpgrinding for 4 diff tree services, they all use bucket trucks...
I had a lot of tree damage to my place after hurricane ike, i would never
even consider using anyone that wanted to use spikes...my 2 cents..

Bob....


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 7, 2011)

*close your mouth, OH right, your foots in it again*



Del_Corbin said:


> Spikes used while trimming are the signature of a lazy hack.
> 
> 
> Keep ignorant climbers out of your trees and do not let them on your property.



The post was intended to learn something new or better. Were not all Pro ####### like you are so, THANKS for your zero input...


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## treeseer (Dec 8, 2011)

Naked Arborist said:


> The post was intended to learn something new or better. ...



That is not how it appeared. If you want to learn new and better climbing methods there are worlds of opportunity for doing so. Practice getting a line up a tree and foot locking, for starters. buy a wraptor. buy a 7 meter pole saw for advancing the rope, and use a long ladder to get to the first branch. read a book or watch a video. go to a climbing contest and learn.

as for spiking cottonwoods because they are short lived, think about that again... Asking clients who trust you to know about trees if you can spike them, 

I had one client call the cops when hacks/uninformed tree guys working next door spike and prune her trees, and I represented her in small claims court. It turned out to be a $4850. learning experience for the spikers. So "Del's" post had info worth hearing; he's just a little behind the times, and could use a course at Charm School. :msp_razz:


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## treeseer (Dec 8, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> Snakes are for charming.



And for practicing your parseltongue. :tongue::tongue::tongue:


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 9, 2011)

*Well said!*

Very well put Treeseer, :msp_thumbup: "that's one for the green horns to grow on" and the newbies thought tree climbing was going to be easy. You should frame that part about paying up for the damages :msp_ohmy: and add it to your office wall.


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## flushcut (Dec 9, 2011)

"Thou shalt not spike prune trees" The only acception to this rule is in time of emergency as in human life and limb. I know there are a lot of guys out in the PNW that spike prune their Doug Firs but the bark is several inches thick.


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## [email protected] (Dec 9, 2011)

*learned anything*

yeah 

I learned there are a lot of jack wagons on here and that the more tree time i get the better off and more comfortable i will be.


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## Bomber (Dec 9, 2011)

*Naked Arborist is this your video?*

[video=youtube;gq1OgTI0rwc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=gq1OgTI0rwc[/video]


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## jrider (Dec 9, 2011)

Naked Arborist: Do you have a tree service in the area? And if so, are you ever looking to get rid of wood? 
As far as spiking a tree, sorry but I can't offer much info aside from thinking its not going to cause any serious harm to most of the full grown native trees in our area.


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## treemandan (Dec 9, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> What about cottonwoods, thick barked and short lived to begin with?
> 
> I try to limit my spiking unless its windy as #### and after i ask. Most of the time the landowners are ok with using spikes and i try to keep my gashing to a minimum. most of the time i am more comfortable in the tree with my spikes for grip and using a saw....
> 
> ...



yeah, those are the only ones yer allowed to spike.:msp_unsure:


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## treemandan (Dec 9, 2011)

rhube96[email protected] said:


> yeah
> 
> I learned there are a lot of jack wagons on here and that the more tree time i get the better off and more comfortable i will be.



I learned there are a lot of lazy, ignorant live tree spiking hacks on here who, even when its explained, still argue. 

I mean really, who is going to get upset over what Mr. Corbin said? My guess a lazy, ignorant live tree spikin hack.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 9, 2011)

Naked Arborist said:


> Here are the questions. A tree service is coming to trim your tree of dead or storm damaged limbs.
> 
> 1 Is the customer going to refuse you the job if your going to climb with spikes?
> Is this tree loved buy the home owner?
> ...



Please allow me to explain this in a way that a fellow Camden County person may understand : Spiking live trees is like getting a #### job on Broadway in Glouc. seems like a quick viable solution to a difficult problem , but the lasting ramifications may cause severe burning an untreatable scarring and tissue damage to your trunk...Ya follow me here ????


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## treemandan (Dec 9, 2011)

Bomber said:


> [video=youtube;gq1OgTI0rwc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=gq1OgTI0rwc[/video]



Ya know, I was young and dumb once myself, took down huge trees with less than that guy, I didn't make educational movies. And I still don't.
Not only that I must be stupid cause i never lernt that spikin technique that don't hurt trees that everybody seems to have mastered. With me the bark comes shredding off from all the stompin I be doin.

Now I can emphathize with a young guy whose mentor told him its OK to do it but even so you have to question authority, to think for yourself. Hey, if you don't care then you don't care but does a good electrician pound a hammer into a wall to run a wire? I am not a good electrician and I use a fishtape. Does a good mechanic leave grease on the steering wheel? Does a brain surgeon start with shoving a borescope up the ass? Well, I guess the last question depends on the patient but still.


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## sweetjetskier (Dec 10, 2011)

ANSI A300 standards for tree care are very clear on the use of "spikes" for tree care.

Spikes are only allowed when entire tree is being removed, aerial rescue and in situations where the tree is a true hazard to life.

My definition my not be exact on the ANSI A300 standards, but the message is very clear: spikes on healthy trees are not allowed.


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## treemandan (Dec 11, 2011)

sweetjetskier said:


> ANSI A300 standards for tree care are very clear on the use of "spikes" for tree care.
> 
> Spikes are only allowed when entire tree is being removed, aerial rescue and in situations where the tree is a true hazard to life.
> 
> My definition my not be exact on the ANSI A300 standards, but the message is very clear: spikes on healthy trees are not allowed.



And a hinderance! So put that in the ANSI A300.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 11, 2011)

There is nothing to argue, if you spike a prune, your a hack. So don't do it. Its simple, if you cannot climb with out spikes, then learn or get down and start draggin brush.


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## treemandan (Dec 12, 2011)

I just remembered this ash I spiked but didn't remove. Codom, split to ####, I pummeled up a little ways, hacked off a bunch of low hanging weight and came down. Hope to TD it soon.


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## TreeGuyHR (Mar 3, 2014)

I use spikes when I top trees -- before y'all pile on, I'll explain.

There is a California Five-spined Ips bark beetle outbreak going on in my area. This beetle starts in the top, sometimes just in a few limbs, half the live crown, or the who;e tree, except that lower trunk over 18 in. diameter is usually green or attacked by western pine beetle.

For those clients that want to save a large ponderosa pine, I have removed from 15 ft. to 40 ft. of top, followed by climbing the tree again with a backpack sprayer and applying an insecticide to the top-most 20 -30 ft. of trunk and out on the limbs to about 2 in. diameter. One 3 1/2 ft. diameter pine is still alive after I removed 40 ft. of top and sprayed it with dinotefuran in September 2012. This tree had about 30% of crown volume removed; most of the rest had less than 25% crown volume removed

The 12 trees or so I have treated in this way between September 2012 and September 2013 have all survived. This bark beetle has three generations per year between April and September, so all the trees were "tested" by bark beetles except for the last few. In the off season for bark beetles, In Fall 2013 I started injecting trees at the base with the ArborJet system and product, combining ememectin benzoate and propiconazole; looking forward to how these do in 2014. Most were uninfested, but some were infested (and had the infested portion pruned out).

Why spikes? Removing 20 - 40 ft. of tree is safer to do with them on, and the top is DEAD. Plus, I rig a top rope from the ground, pull up my life line passed through a 'biner on the end of it, tie of the top rope, and then walk up the tree with a flip line; there is almost no weight on the spikes, and they usually don't penetrate at all, or just in the outer inch of loose dead bark. The point is not to trash the live crown; spiking the live portion of trunk would just attract bark beetles and possibly spread the blue-stain fungus brought in by the bark beetles.

I agree that topping is bad in the way it used to be done in perfectly healthy trees of all species, usually for the view or because the tree was "too tall"; hence the ban in the A-300 standards. IMHO, the decision to keep top-killed pines in a bark beetle epidemic is a special case that is not covered by the A-300 standards. Also, it just so happens that p-pine puts out a lot of resin that seals up the wound and soaks the underlying wood, making decay less likely than in other trees. For example, we have all seen grey birch rot out from heading cuts only 2-3 inches in diameter. Not all ponderosa pines with top-kill are candidates for this treatment -- just ones highly valued for framing the view or screening. I also inform the client that the tree will need follow-up inspections and pruning in the future, as well as insecticide applied to the remaining top if the tree is topped during the bark beetle flight season. I would never top a large healthy tree.


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