# Sectioning logs



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

Cut a big walnut for my brother Saturday, kind of wasp wasted but minimum circumference was 82" at 16', left the log at 19' just below a fork. Cut off an encapsulated
knot at 4' to make certain it was not hollow in the butt. Basically I think I have about 12' of veneer wood in the middle and not enough "other" on the ends to make a salable log. Question is, what do you do with these in the woods to get max value out of them? Think we are going to try to haul this one whole assuming we can load it. Calculate wt of about 6,500#


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

Woody912 said:


> Cut a big walnut for my brother Saturday, kind of wasp wasted but minimum circumference was 82" at 16', left the log at 19' just below a fork. Cut off an encapsulatedView attachment 802917
> knot at 4' to make certain it was not hollow in the butt. Basically I think I have about 12' of veneer wood in the middle and not enough "other" on the ends to make a salable log. Question is, what do you do with these in the woods to get max value out of them? Think we are going to try to haul this one whole assuming we can load it. Calculate wt of about 6,500#



And on the ground


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 2, 2020)

1st thing people in the woods do in measure diameter, not circumference. Ax men isn’t real. The next thing you need to do is find a mill that will buy a dooryard tree. Then, if you find one, get their spec sheet and figure out where the money is.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> 1st thing people in the woods do in measure diameter, not circumference. Ax men isn’t real. The next thing you need to do is find a mill that will buy a dooryard tree. Then, if you find one, get their spec sheet and figure out where the money is.



Took 2" off the outside bark and then calculated diameter at about 25.6, nearly 500 bf in the log if treated only as a saw log. " Don't have a scale stick so I just translate circumference after I wrap the tape. Already have buyer for veneer part of the log @ $4-10 per bf delivered once he actually lays his eyeballs on it evaluate. Tree has been in the family for 60 years and don't know what a nail is.


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 2, 2020)

If you’ve got a buyer why are you posting? Maybe because you don’t know veneer doesn’t get bought in 12 ft lengths? Or maybe you don’t know what constitutes a veneer log? Your telling me that tree is only 60 years old? And your buyer knows it’s a dooryard tree? I’m advising not to sign anything assuming responsibility for equipment damage from foreign material in the log.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 2, 2020)

the right thing to do is contact your buyer, and ask him directly what hes looking for, regarding knots, rot sap wood, cracks, and other defects, then ask him his preferred lengths.

every mill, in every area, has it's own standards, for me to tell you what they want would be very presumptuous, and irresponsible.

but understand every walnut tree in the word is not going to be valuable, those that are are, those that are not, are fire wood


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 2, 2020)

furthermore

if is calculated by measuring the smallest diameter of the log, circumference/pi may not be the same.

do yourself a favor, measure the smallest diameter, and the overall length, then consult the scale your buyer is using then multiply that by $4 and make an educated guess as to whether or not it's worth the effort to haul


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 2, 2020)

or say 25" x 12'= 168bf doyle

or $672 @$4 per bf assuming they don't deduct half that value for defect


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> or say 25" x 12'= 168bf doyle
> 
> or $672 @$4 per bf assuming they don't deduct half that value for defect



where do you get 168? I get 21 x21 x 12/16 = 330 bf. There are no defects in the middle of that log, told my brother it is a $1,000 log at minimum. Hopefully it will dry out enough this week we can haul it and find out for certain. Actually took an upper limb out of it that is big enough and straight enough to sell also. Poor walnut is still worth more than anything else


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> If you’ve got a buyer why are you posting? Maybe because you don’t know veneer doesn’t get bought in 12 ft lengths? Or maybe you don’t know what constitutes a veneer log? Your telling me that tree is only 60 years old? And your buyer knows it’s a dooryard tree? I’m advising not to sign anything assuming responsibility for equipment damage from foreign material in the log.



just a rhetorical question in case one has to section one in the woods. We will haul this on at full length, take a saw if buyer wants us to section it. Good people, I always seek their input on things I take them. Once told me our stuff was great compared to some of the stuff he had brought in. Tree is about 80 but it was in the woods before this house was built. More woods trees with tree stands in them these days than yard trees with metal.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> furthermore
> 
> if is calculated by measuring the smallest diameter of the log, circumference/pi may not be the same.
> 
> do yourself a favor, measure the smallest diameter, and the overall length, then consult the scale your buyer is using then multiply that by $4 and make an educated guess as to whether or not it's worth the effort to haul



Doyle scale is apparently the only one used around here. I hate it but it does make pretty easy to scale in the woods. Log has some swell right underneath the fork where I cut it, hardwood is a little different than the softwoods ya'll cut out west.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> the right thing to do is contact your buyer, and ask him directly what hes looking for, regarding knots, rot sap wood, cracks, and other defects, then ask him his preferred lengths.
> 
> every mill, in every area, has it's own standards, for me to tell you what they want would be very presumptuous, and irresponsible.
> 
> but understand every walnut tree in the word is not going to be valuable, those that are are, those that are not, are fire wood



Local sawmill will not cut this log, they are just the middleman. Walnut sawdust is toxic, cannot be used in bedding because it will eat the feet off of hooved animals etc. Told me they cannot justify the time to isolate the sawdust. In an ideal world we would sell to a dedicated walnut mill but only a few logs to sell we can't get there from here. I think this log will get exported.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 3, 2020)

Woody912 said:


> where do you get 168? I get 21 x21 x 12/16 = 330 bf. There are no defects in the middle of that log, told my brother it is a $1,000 log at minimum. Hopefully it will dry out enough this week we can haul it and find out for certain. Actually took an upper limb out of it that is big enough and straight enough to sell also. Poor walnut is still worth more than anything else


you need to look up Doyle scale, its not as simple as dxdxl, board feet isn't cubic feet, and log scale figures for wastage of 1/4" for every board possible. 

I suggest you apologize to your brother now... rather then after you get a lousy check.

poor timber is still poor timber and not worth hauling, granted walnut can have value, but if you buck it wrong, or its not enough to make boards out of its still just firewood


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 3, 2020)

I say these things, cause mills are crooked as it gets, they can smell a homeowner/gyppo logger before they smell your cologne, they know you only have 1-2 logs to sell them and they don't care if you come back.

So don't expect the red carpet and $10 per BF


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 3, 2020)

Woody912 said:


> Doyle scale is apparently the only one used around here. I hate it but it does make pretty easy to scale in the woods. Log has some swell right underneath the fork where I cut it, hardwood is a little different than the softwoods ya'll cut out west.



We don't just cut soft woods here, there are plenty of hardwoods, walnuts included, they just don't make the news cause they are mostly considered weeds. 

Maple, Alder, Oak, Holly, Madrone, Black Walnut, Aspen, Beech, Cherry, Birch, Vine Maple all natives

Not to mention Doug Fir is on par with most Maples for hardness, but thats beside the point. 

theres also our lesser known "soft" woods like Pacific Yew that is way harder then most oaks, or "The Larch" i.e. Tamarack that isn't really a conifer, nor is it a deciduous tree, so is it considered a hardwood?

we could go into the non natives, like Apple, Pear, various oaks. But I hope you get the point


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 3, 2020)

seems like this needs posted


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 3, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> you need to look up Doyle scale, its not as simple as dxdxl, board feet isn't cubic feet, and log scale figures for wastage of 1/4" for every board possible.
> 
> I suggest you apologize to your brother now... rather then after you get a lousy check.
> 
> poor timber is still poor timber and not worth hauling, granted walnut can have value, but if you buck it wrong, or its not enough to make boards out of its still just firewood



Just opened up log calculator and did the numbers on Doyle, Scribner and Int'l, average of all 3 was 507 bf and Doyle was 495. Took him a log about 60% as big as this one last year and got $600. Another buyer offered "maybe" $600 for both of them delivered. Tree was going regardless of value, starting to show signs of deterioration


----------



## buzz sawyer (Mar 3, 2020)

following


----------



## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2020)

Woody912 said:


> Question is, what do you do with these in the woods to get max value out of them? Think we are going to try to haul this one whole assuming we can load it. Calculate wt of about 6,500#


 Think you answered your own question. Whole logs should be a higher scale and worth more than 'half sawn'. Halfs are worth more than quarter's and quarter more than slabs.
I don't know anything about Walnut or the way it can be dressed in the area you are at at all though.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 3, 2020)

Westboastfaller said:


> Think you answered your own question. Whole logs should be a higher scale and worth more than 'half sawn'. Halfs are worth more than quarter's and quarter more than slabs.
> I don't know anything about Walnut or the way it can be dressed in the area you are at at all though.



Locally the range of salable lengths is 8+ to 12+ feet @ 2' increments because that is how hardwood lumber is graded, the way I understand it.Plus being 4" for retrim of checking etc, minimum diameter is 10" inside bark. Normally your butt long is best and biggest so you would try to max that length. This log is best in the middle but the butt and other end probably contain some beautiful burl in them that is probably only attractive to specialty buyers. Gunstocks, cabinet makers etc maybe. I work on rough terrain with minimal equipment so it sometimes becomes a matter of "how big can I get out of the woods?"


----------



## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2020)

We just do raw volume in harvest. Nah, I just walk away from the log and at the end of the day peel of the rigging and walk away. It's colour by numbers really.
I know a bit about volume and weight.
Yeah, I have your volume at 346 bf at 21" average at 12 ft.
25% more at 16ft. About 520ish.
What was the real measurement of the butt and top..or average at 19ft?

You seem like you are twice the weight at 6500lb than I think it should be just off the top of my head?


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 3, 2020)

Westboastfaller said:


> We just do raw volume in harvest. Nah, I just walk away from the log and at the end of the day peel of the rigging and walk away. It's colour by numbers really.
> I know a bit about volume and weight.
> Yeah, I have your volume at 346 bf at 21" average at 12 ft.
> 25% more at 16ft. About 520ish.
> ...



34" on the stump, I did not measure the small end since it was the bottom of a fork with quite a bit of swell. Measured it at the thinnest place along the length. There is an
app, maybe at Woodweb.com where you input the species, both end diameters and the length and it will spit out a weight. I assume it calculates the average volume of 2 cylinders multiplied by some average known density of a given species.


----------



## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2020)

Woody912 said:


> 34" on the stump, I did not measure the small end since it was the bottom of a fork with quite a bit of swell. Measured it at the thinnest place along the length. There is anView attachment 803260
> app, maybe at Woodweb.com where you input the species, both end diameters and the length and it will spit out a weight. I assume it calculates the average volume of 2 cylinders multiplied by some average known density of a given species.


Ok...I think I follow you now.
You did the right thing it sounds. Always keep what you deducted in the back of your mind in regards to swells and flair and tack it on in the end in regards to weight..But absolutely dont measured dia there. If it adds up to a few more square ft then add another 50-60 per square ft. (Not sure what it is for sure yet...that's fair ball park for now.)

^^^ Yeah that would be what the app is doing What do you mean "2 cylinders" though?

Your formula would be: convert cone to cylinder:
Add measurement from both ends and dividend by 2.
32+ 21 = 53
26.5 average.

Your radius is 13.250" x pi (3.1415)
Times the answer by radius again for area of a circle. (551.5cu in)
--- 
Now you want area of a cylinder:

Area of the circle times 12 =6,618.cu in
Times 19ft =125,748. Cu in
Divide by 144 = calculated
873 bf
Divide by 12 for cu ft:
72 cu ft
You have about 4,300 lb at 60lb per cu ft.
would assume it's less than 60? I will look it up in a minute. Most oaks are between 50 -60 and some as high as 65lb. Think that's 20% kilne dry though.
I thought that log would be about 2 cubic metres. 424bf or 35cu ft to a cu metre.


----------



## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2020)

I'm coming up with 38lb for dry and
58 for green wood.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 3, 2020)

Westboastfaller said:


> Ok...I think I follow you now.
> You did the right thing it sounds. Always keep what you deducted in the back of your mind in regards to swells and flair and tack it on in the end in regards to weight..But absolutely dont measured dia there. If it adds up to a few more square ft then add another 50-60 per square ft. (Not sure what it is for sure yet...that's fair ball park for now.)
> 
> ^^^ Yeah that would be what the app is doing What do you mean "2 cylinders" though?
> ...


 
I think you calculated the weight of the actual lumber instead of the log? I did the calc in feet and got an even higher number but I have been helping grandson with algebra for 2 hrs, brain is fried so will review my work in the morning. Here is what the app came up with. I think my original 6500# is what we drug up the hill before I cut the fork off of it. I think your 58#/ft^3 has to be pretty close, lot of water.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 3, 2020)

We did not use this technique. I gotta have some hinge. And more cowbell!


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 4, 2020)

I'm going to say this in tiny words, so your brain understands

Mills do not care about which end is bigger, the big end does not count

they will measure the small end, and use a chart to calculate BF from that

25" DIAMETER and 12' of log is 330 mbf, (in which case I stand corrected clicked on wrong scale...))

they don't care about taper, to them that is profit margins

In reality though it sounds like you have more like a 20-21" dia log


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 4, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm going to say this in tiny words, so your brain understands
> 
> Mills do not care about which end is bigger, the big end does not count
> 
> ...





northmanlogging said:


> I'm going to say this in tiny words, so your brain understands
> 
> Mills do not care about which end is bigger, the big end does not count
> 
> ...


My tiny brain understands just fine. If you go back to the original post you will see that I stated the minimum diameter of this log was 25-26" and every calculation has been based from that. Both ends of the log are bigger than that which is why I did not use them. I do not use need a chart to calculate Doyle bf. Minimum diameter -4" times itself gives bf for 16' log and then adjust for actual log length.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 4, 2020)

Westboastfaller said:


> I'm coming up with 38lb for dry and
> 58 for green wood.



Westboastfaller- Looks to me like the app that I posted actually calculates the weight of a dry log. Cubic feet of a 25" x 19' cylinder is 128, of a 34" x 19' is 167, average assuming straight taper (which it isn't) is 147 ft^3 x 38 =~5,600#. 58# green density pushes total wt up to about 8,500# unless I have screwed up somewhere. Only reason I mess with this is to give me an idea of how much weight we can load the trailer with and get it down the road.


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 4, 2020)

This is easy to settle. When you make the transaction, post the scale and grade ticket from the mill along with the check, sans payee.


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 4, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> This is easy to settle. When you make the transaction, post the scale and grade ticket from the mill along with the check, sans payee.




never gotten a scale or grade ticket, buyer measures logs and punches data into his handheld device and tells me what I am getting and then writes me a check. I plan on reporting the amount but we also have a 10' long white oak with a butt diameter of 42" to go on the same load. Used to have a grain scale about a mile away we could use but they went out of biz and turned the lights out I think.


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 4, 2020)

Nothing you say adds up. There’s no way a legitimate log buyer doesn’t give paperwork along with a check. What the hell does a grain scale have to do with a log?


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 4, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> Nothing you say adds up. There’s no way a legitimate log buyer doesn’t give paperwork along with a check. What the hell does a grain scale have to do with a log?



Sold logs down there about 6 times with 2 other individuals and we have never gotten any paperwork other than a check. They have been in business for about 40 years. Grain scale reference was about checking load weight on the trailer.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 4, 2020)

alright chuckles 

good luck playin logger


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 4, 2020)

Woody912 said:


> Sold logs down there about 6 times with 2 other individuals and we have never gotten any paperwork other than a check. They have been in business for about 40 years. Grain scale reference was about checking load weight on the trailer.



With all that experience why are you here asking questions that any 2nd day employee would know the answers to?


----------



## woodfarmer (Mar 4, 2020)

Ok boys, let’s just wait for Woody to post the dollars and bd ft


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 4, 2020)

I expect to see the check and tally slip.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 4, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> With all that experience why are you here asking questions that any 2nd day employee would know the answers to?


See now I wanted to say that days ago... but didn't


----------



## madhatte (Mar 4, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> seems like this needs posted




Aw dang beat me to it


----------



## Woody912 (Mar 5, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> Ok boys, let’s just wait for Woody to post the dollars and bd ft


Bought the middle 12' section of the log for $6 a board foot, total of $1,458. His inside bark calculation was a little smaller than mine but the $$ looked good. Spent about 15 minutes going over the log with a fine tooth comb, had some concerns about bird peck but everyone was smiling when we pulled out of the yard


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 5, 2020)

Extremely hard to believe considering the amount of sapwood pictured. Picture of check and tally slip with business heading. . Don’t even bother to tell us there’s no slip. The IRS requires documentation of sales and purchase of goods in trade.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 5, 2020)

Jhenderson said:


> Extremely hard to believe considering the amount of sapwood pictured. Picture of check and tally slip with business heading. . Don’t even bother to tell us there’s no slip. The IRS requires documentation of sales and purchase of goods in trade.


some of these backwater mills don't run taxes... I get the feeling this guy is either gettin ripped off, or full of ****, maybe both


----------



## Jhenderson (Mar 5, 2020)

Backwater or not, handing the kind of money he claims to be getting day in, day out, draws attention to the log buyer. On the first day of my 4 day audit years ago, I was informed that a cancelled check is NOT a receipt. The auditor had the nerve to tell my wife and I quote “ for all I know that money you gave them was for drugs”. I had to go to 4 different landowners and get notarized letters stating the money I gave them was for stumpage and that they had declared the income for tax purposes. I was extremely fortunate that I had dealt with honest folks.


----------



## woodfarmer (Mar 5, 2020)

Well that was 243 bdft, which is exactly what the Doyle scale is for a 22”x12’ log


----------



## madhatte (Mar 5, 2020)

To be clear: it scaled at 243 bf as measured by two independent sources. That does not mean it will make 243 bf milled. This stuff is always estimates until you have a finished product.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 5, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> Well that was 243 bdft, which is exactly what the Doyle scale is for a 22”x12’ log


is this where I'm not supposed to say I told you so?


----------



## slowp (Mar 10, 2020)

For Doyle scaled logs, it works out best to cut the butt log short. That gives you a bigger "small end diameter". When old growth large diameter Doug fir was being cut like mad (SW Warshington) and when a certain mill bought an old growth timber sale--not the logs but the whole shebang, they gave their fallers instructions to cut 40' butt logs. Then they paid stumpage to the land owner only for the small end cylinder and got extra wood as a bonus.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 10, 2020)

slowp said:


> For Doyle scaled logs, it works out best to cut the butt log short. That gives you a bigger "small end diameter". When old growth large diameter Doug fir was being cut like mad (SW Warshington) and when a certain mill bought an old growth timber sale--not the logs but the whole shebang, they gave their fallers instructions to cut 40' butt logs. Then they paid stumpage to the land owner only for the small end cylinder and got extra wood as a bonus.


see now I knew ya couldn't stay away forever


----------



## old CB (Mar 10, 2020)

This site has suffered from the loss of a certain voice from Warshington. And I hope the used dog returns as well.


----------



## madhatte (Mar 11, 2020)

slowp said:


> For Doyle scaled logs, it works out best to cut the butt log short.



Surely no forestry type would ever grade that way to plump a cruise. Surely.


----------



## slowp (Mar 11, 2020)

madhatte said:


> Surely no forestry type would ever grade that way to plump a cruise. Surely.


A cruise is not a scale. But, if you've done both it is hard not to think scaling whilst cruising. If you do, and you know what you are doing, your cruise might actually work out to be very close to the scale volume. I did that once on an old growth sale and shoulda bought a lottery ticket. 
At that time, we cruised timber in 32 foot logs and 16 foot half logs. You cruised it to where you thought it would bust up when it hit the ground. We young 'uns were hauled up to a sale on "broken" ground to see how badly the DF punkins broke up. They were around 9 to 11 feet in diameter and there was a lot of breakage above the butt log. Of course, this also happened on nice ground where it was rumored that the fallers had been told to save out the butt log and then break up the rest. The mill had paid dearly for those logs--it was at the time when sales were bid up extremely high and defaults were in the near future. The mill did not want the smaller stuff. However, "The Contract Says" was quoted to them so they cleaned up their act. Anyway, we entered about 10% breakage into the cruise and then "cut off the top" lower down on cruise trees and our cruise accuracy improved.


----------



## slowp (Mar 11, 2020)

This has lots of pictures and explanations. I had to buy the book for school.


https://ibsp.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2018/06/IdahoLogScalingManual-online.pdf


----------



## madhatte (Mar 11, 2020)

We use some fairly bogus tricks to make the cruise and scale as close as possible. I've been fighting it for years but apparently the folks bidding on our sales are happy with the arrangement so the higher ups are not in a hurry to change anything. We all know that a standing tree and a log on the ground and a stack of 2 x 4's are dramatically different things so it's a frustrating and semantic argument to have over and over but I guess money talks and I'm just a technician who doesn't know his place.


----------



## rwoods (Mar 11, 2020)

slowp said:


> For Doyle scaled logs, it works out best to cut the butt log short. That gives you a bigger "small end diameter". When old growth large diameter Doug fir was being cut like mad (SW Warshington) and when a certain mill bought an old growth timber sale--not the logs but the whole shebang, they gave their fallers instructions to cut 40' butt logs. Then they paid stumpage to the land owner only for the small end cylinder and got extra wood as a bonus.



I don't know anything about logging, cruising or scaling - just wanted to say "Hi" and that you were missed. Ron


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 11, 2020)

madhatte said:


> We use some fairly bogus tricks to make the cruise and scale as close as possible. I've been fighting it for years but apparently the folks bidding on our sales are happy with the arrangement so the higher ups are not in a hurry to change anything. We all know that a standing tree and a log on the ground and a stack of 2 x 4's are dramatically different things so it's a frustrating and semantic argument to have over and over but I guess money talks and I'm just a technician who doesn't know his place.


Feel like I've covered this before, but its nice to know the the Cruise report is more then likely low, so you can bid accordingly and maybe make a little more money then you thought.

On the other hand unless the contract is spelled out accordingly, then it does leave room for the logger to more or less steal some of the wood, makes up for the wood the Mills steal from all of us though.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 11, 2020)

and to be absolutely clear, never bid off just the cruise report, get yer damn boots on and look at it yourself


----------



## slowp (Mar 11, 2020)

It's very hard to follow the rules for cruising when you know that some of the defect can be undone by a good job of bucking. Example: Having to deduct for sweep in that 32 foot log when you know it can be bucked in a good place and made into two real logs with less defect for the sweep.. But, that's just the way it is.


----------



## slowp (Mar 11, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Feel like I've covered this before, but its nice to know the the Cruise report is more then likely low, so you can bid accordingly and maybe make a little more money then you thought.
> 
> On the other hand unless the contract is spelled out accordingly, then it does leave room for the logger to more or less steal some of the wood, makes up for the wood the Mills steal from all of us though.



We knew that units were over running when the purchaser made no comments on the cruise accuracy. When a lump sum (payment based on cruise volume, not actual scale) under ran, they would be in the office complaining loudly if they hadn't factored that into their bid. The big guys almost always have their own cruisers check out the sales and will adjust their bid to factor in an over run or under run. Or will not bid at all.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 12, 2020)

slowp said:


> It's very hard to follow the rules for cruising when you know that some of the defect can be undone by a good job of bucking. Example: Having to deduct for sweep in that 32 foot log when you know it can be bucked in a good place and made into two real logs with less defect for the sweep.. But, that's just the way it is.


I continue to make a career out of cutting the crap wood and making it look like decent logs... 

Now that I have the Self loader.... Holy S the crap people send in is amazing


----------



## madhatte (Mar 12, 2020)

slowp said:


> It's very hard to follow the rules for cruising when you know that some of the defect can be undone by a good job of bucking.



The Bell and Dillworth says to deduct 50% at all forks! That's insane! A logger isn't gonna see a 40" butt forked at 6 feet as a badly defective 40" tree, they're gonna see it as 2 20" inchers above 8' of cull. I built a chart for calculating over/underrun vs that rule and got shot down trying to implement it. Add in form factor, local growth model, "unseen defect" factor... we kneecap our numbers like crazy to build market confidence knowing full well that we can only grade what we can see and everything else is guesswork. 

What I'd much rather do is measure and report what I can actually see, then note in the cruise report that cruised volume is as reported +/- the average difference between the two compared to the last 10 sales by gross percentage. That would allow for the same margin of error without abject lying to attract buyers. Mathematical trickery does not sit well with me.


----------



## slowp (Mar 12, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> I continue to make a career out of cutting the crap wood and making it look like decent logs...
> 
> Now that I have the Self loader.... Holy S the crap people send in is amazing



Be glad you are there and not here. I mostly see trucks hauling pecker poles. Lots and lots of pecker poles mostly on short loggers. They have to haul them long distances, as there is only one mill left in this valley. 

When I worked over here, a sale I had broke the local mill's scale program. There were too many logs on the trucks. It was a lodgepole sale. Now it looks like a lot of small P pine and DF going by. I assume it is from fire prevention work. I also assume they get paid by weight, although I think it is hard to make weight with pecker poles. The logging work I've seen is nicely done on the ground. We rode our bikes up next to a sale last year. It was all mechanized and was a thinning for fire sale.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 12, 2020)

slowp said:


> Be glad you are there and not here. I mostly see trucks hauling pecker poles. Lots and lots of pecker poles mostly on short loggers. They have to haul them long distances, as there is only one mill left in this valley.
> 
> When I worked over here, a sale I had broke the local mill's scale program. There were too many logs on the trucks. It was a lodgepole sale. Now it looks like a lot of small P pine and DF going by. I assume it is from fire prevention work. I also assume they get paid by weight, although I think it is hard to make weight with pecker poles. The logging work I've seen is nicely done on the ground. We rode our bikes up next to a sale last year. It was all mechanized and was a thinning for fire sale.


a lot of that around here too, mostly mechanized anymore so it's a lot easier to mess with the pecker poles.

SP and Hampton both have a scale by weight program, which I suppose is fine if you produce 20 loads a day, but for me it could take a month to get enough pecker poles and top to make up a load, and I end up losing my ass cause it's all dried out and light by then


----------



## woodfarmer (Mar 15, 2020)

i should have done more research on scaling years ago. Here are amounts for a typical 30’ hardwood tree.
20” x8’=128 18”x10’=122 12”x12’= 298. 298 bdft
19”x10’=141 16”x12’=108 12”x8’= 32. 281
19”x12’=169 16”x10’=90 12”x8’=32. 291
19”x10’=141 17”x10’=106 12”x10’=40. 287
I usually always take the first log at 12’, so I’ve been shorting myself 7 bdft on every tree as opposed to starting at 8’, which doesn’t sound like much but over 100 trees would have bought me a new saw.
Live and learn, I guess that’s why they call it experience!!


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 15, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> i should have done more research on scaling years ago. Here are amounts for a typical 30’ hardwood tree.
> 20” x8’=128 18”x10’=122 12”x12’= 298. 298 bdft
> 19”x10’=141 16”x12’=108 12”x8’= 32. 281
> 19”x12’=169 16”x10’=90 12”x8’=32. 291
> ...


I've been told by more then a few "loggers" out here, to cut 24's for cedar because of the taper...

but in reality, 30's will pay better... its partly getting more log on the truck, and also getting a better pay rate for the longer logs, generally several hundred more per 1k, the difference could be upwards of $1000 per load depending on current rate.

its one of those tribal knowledge conundrums where some bonehead thinks one way tells all his buddies, and since they respect him they believe him never questioning a word dude says...

anyway, could be that a longer butt log pays better because of a better grade of log, so having more length gets you more cash, rather then more BF at the end of the day... I generally don't mess with short logs like that, so you'll have to experiment and report back... anything under a 16' is heavily frowned on out here lol.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 15, 2020)

if ya think about it a minute... truck can only stack cedar so high before being overheight, cause they will likely not be overweight...

so 30's gain you a chunk of wood 6'Lx8'w x like 6' ish tall, 

the truck costs the same whether your hauling 16's or 40's.

If your hualing short wood, you get short wood prices and short wood scale, so you might get 2500bf @$600 per 1k, of 24's and cost $300 to truck it totaling like $1440 "profit"

But you haul 30's you get long wood prices and a longer wood scales, s you get closer to more like 4000bf @ $750 per 1k, and still cost $300 to truck... totaling $2700 profit...

I'm sure there is a ratio in there for truck rate vs pay out... but I think I was sick when we learned ratios in school... (or to be honest, cranking ac/dc, aerosmith and black sabbath and not giving a ****)


----------



## woodfarmer (Mar 15, 2020)

The buyer only takes logs down to 12” on the small end, so I guess the best thing to do is cut the tree to the 12” dia. mark and then make as many logs from there as possible.
We use the Ontario Log Rule here which is a little more generous than the Doyle Scale.


----------



## RandyMac (Mar 23, 2020)




----------



## woodfarmer (May 8, 2020)

Somedays.....had a load go out that didn’t pay any better than firewood. Buddy has a tree removal business and can make what the load paid for removing one city tree.


----------



## northmanlogging (May 9, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> Somedays.....had a load go out that didn’t pay any better than firewood. Buddy has a tree removal business and can make what the load paid for removing one city tree.


prices are crap at the moment...

to many crack heads and rednecks around here to even try and make money on firewood, to many hucksters looking for a deal too, so you bring em 10 cord charge em for 8 then they get huffy about the price...

Not ****ing worth the headache, the mill buys it, sends a check done, on to the next mess


----------



## woodfarmer (May 9, 2020)

That and I spent several days on that load and the tree removable makes that in one day


----------



## northmanlogging (May 9, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> That and I spent several days on that load and the tree removable makes that in one day


ya but you have to be willing to charge $1000 for what would take a logger 30 minutes... and put up with the rose bushes, the manicured lawn, beauty bark, paving stones, rubber neckers, not to mention the crack heads that arborist work attracts.

Slammed out a load of D fir yesterday, by myself, not a care in the world, on an Island sunny and 80 degrees...

Also a banner day, was able to see Mt Baker, and Mt rainier from one spot,


----------



## woodfarmer (May 9, 2020)

I love working in the Bush, wouldn’t want to work in someone’s front yard all day. Springtime in Canada.


----------

