# On the horns of a dilemma..



## VT-Woodchuck (Jul 8, 2007)

Hi All,
I’ve decided that the Woodbug is a little labor intensive and wasteful and am looking at bandsaw mills to cut smaller logs and cants from the WB. I have researched about a dozen makes and models and have a couple of questions for the brain trust. Now keep in mind that this is a hobby operation and money is of some concern.

Hud-son Oscar 18 is on the short list - $2600 and it’s close enough so that I can pick it up.

Ripsaw XL4 - $2800 + $245 shipping – appears to work for cants but the carriage appears flimsy.

Linn 190 carriage kit - $2900 + shipping – is it that much better?

Other thoughts? There is a lot of experience here and I appreciate your input.


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## dustytools (Jul 8, 2007)

There is a Ripsaw on E-bay right now. I believe it is a XL-4. It has a 5HP Briggs on it and looks to be in good shape. The current bid is at $900. The only problem is that its a pick-up only item and its way up in Illinois.


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## woodshop (Jul 8, 2007)

No experience nor have heard much about any of the three you have listed there. If that Hud-son dealer is near you though, that is a BIG plus in my book. Somebody you can go to face to face if there is a problem or you need parts.


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## lumberinspector (Jul 8, 2007)

I would check into a woodmizer! They have a large assorment of mills to choose from and customer service is top notch. They also have a re-sharp program so you can send your bands back and they will get them sharpened and back to you. 

I know when the day comes for me to buy a mill, I'm buying orange!  

You can also check with Norwood. I have heard some pretty good things about them also. 

I would make sure you do plenty of research before the final purchase. 

Good Luck


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## woodshop (Jul 9, 2007)

lumberinspector said:


> I would check into a woodmizer! They have a large assorment of mills to choose from and customer service is top notch. They also have a re-sharp program so you can send your bands back and they will get them sharpened and back to you.
> 
> I know when the day comes for me to buy a mill, I'm buying orange!
> 
> ...



Yes if I had the space for a stationary bandmill I think Norwood has the most bang for the buck... and stepping up to orange would be nice if you could afford it. However, I gleaned from his post that VT-woodchuck was looking more at entry level mills. Norwood does make a pretty inexpensive entry level mill though I think.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Jul 9, 2007)

I've got to ask, why do you think there is less work with a band mill over what you have? And if the band mill makes wavy lumber and you have to make more passes on your planner, what do you save?

Rodney


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## woodshop (Jul 9, 2007)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> I've got to ask, why do you think there is less work with a band mill over what you have? And if the band mill makes wavy lumber and you have to make more passes on your planner, what do you save?
> 
> Rodney


Hey there Rodney... you didn't specify... to whom were you asking this question?


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## Rodney Sinclair (Jul 9, 2007)

It was to Woodchuck. He posted some pic last week of his Woodbug. I've got to say the frame was a lot heavier on the bug than I thought. And it wasn't meant to be a smart a$$ question. It was to get him to stop and think. He is not running an Alaskan. If he was, it might be worth the price. At any rate, any sawmill is gonna be a lot of work and I'm not sure the little bit of kerf we are talking about is worth three grand or more.

Rodney


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## woodshop (Jul 9, 2007)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> It was to Woodchuck... At any rate, any sawmill is gonna be a lot of work and I'm not sure the little bit of kerf we are talking about is worth three grand or more.
> 
> Rodney



I agree with ya there Rodney, unless you plan on milling a LOT of wood, that extra board for every 4-5 milled with a chain will be a pretty expensive board from a purely monetary aspect. I suppose you could do some quick and dirty math and find the breakpoint... lemme give it a shot.

To make it simple say you are milling an 18 inch dia 8 ft cherry log and you are slicing 12 inch wide boards. That would be 8 bd ft extra for every 32 bd ft (4 boards) you mill with a chain. Bandmill 40 bd ft, chain mill 32 bd ft. Around here if you travel into the rural parts of PA you can get cherry wet right off the saw for $2-3 a bd ft... so that extra 12 inch wide 8ft board would cost you say $25. Milling an 18 inch log 4/4 you will get roughly 12 boards a foot wide with a bandmill, and roughly 9 with a csm. So those three extra 12 inch wide cherry boards would cost you $60-70 if you were to buy them. At $60 loss per 18" cherry log it would take you 16 logs to make up for every thousand bucks extra you spend on a bandmill. Did I do that right???? Somebody correct me if my logic went south of cheese. I'm using very general quick and dirty scenario here, but if I did the math right ballpark numbers say you need to mill at least 30 nice large logs before you get your return on that more expensive entry level bandmill. 

Obviously, if you use cheaper oak or maple instead of cherry... or smaller or larger logs... or umpteen other different scenarios those numbers could go all over the place. Also, if you're planning on milling for many a year, even if you don't mill that many logs in a year the extra initial cost of the bandmill would still be worth it in the long run in that case. We are not taking the time factor into consideration either... bandmill does slice much quicker than a csm... for some folks that time would translate more directly into $$ saved. Now if you really want to get a headache, try and factor in cost of bandsaw blades vs bar/chain per ft milled... cost of how much gas the different mills use... one could go nuts tying to figure out this stuff. 

sorry... I got carried away again...


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## Rodney Sinclair (Jul 9, 2007)

And now if you figure that extra three or four passes on the planner because of wavy lunber from the bandmill, those three boards now become one. And the cost of band blades and getting them sharpened and --------------

Rodney

By the way, I had a Norwood LM 2000 here a few years back. My wife's nephew has it and last I heard, it was for sale. Problem is, he thinks it's worth more how than it was new.


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## lmbeachy (Jul 9, 2007)

Woodshop, it doesn't look to me like you allowed for any kerf whatsoever on the band saw. You will have at least a one eighth inch kerf, or that is what the Woodmiser LT 15 is set up for. That is one half of the kerf of the quarter inch kerf on a chain saw. So instead of a free board every 4 or 5 boards, it will be a free board every eight or nine boards.Look at it like this. If I have a 10 x10 cant I am able to cut 8 10inch boards with my chain saw mill. On that same cant with a bandsaw you will be able to cut 8 10 inch boards with just a little less than a 1 inch board left. If my math is wrong please let me know.


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## woodshop (Jul 9, 2007)

lmbeachy said:


> Woodshop, it doesn't look to me like you allowed for any kerf whatsoever on the band saw. You will have at least a one eighth inch kerf, or that is what the Woodmiser LT 15 is set up for. That is one half of the kerf of the quarter inch kerf on a chain saw. So instead of a free board every 4 or 5 boards, it will be a free board every eight or nine boards.Look at it like this. If I have a 10 x10 cant I am able to cut 8 10inch boards with my chain saw mill. On that same cant with a bandsaw you will be able to cut 8 10 inch boards with just a little less than a 1 inch board left. If my math is wrong please let me know.



To be honest, I never actually did a real world test to see EXACTLY how much of a kerf the Ripsaw takes. I do know though, that the Ripsaw blades are only .025 inches, which is less than the standard thicker wider LT-15 blades. I just ran down to the shop and measured out of curiosity, and as best as I could measure with the micrometer, got .044 inches including the tooth set on a brand new Ripsaw blade. That is still less than half of the 1/8 inch kerf (.125 inch) that you say the LT-15 blade has. Of course, it may not be that simple... I'm far from an expert on blade technology. I do know though, just from working with the Ripsaw all these years and measuring and figuring boards from cants when milling that it doesn't take as much as a full 1/8 inch kerf. Only way to really know though, is just measure it in the field. I'll measure a cant as carefully as I can, then slice it up, then measure the total width of all the boards and divide the difference among them. Might be interesting findings. 

Here is a pic I posted several years ago that shows a cant sliced several boards deep with my Ripsaw. I did this by not moving the guide bar but moving the guide plate on the Ripsaw that rides on that guide bar 5/4 deeper every cut.


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## MJR (Jul 10, 2007)

I am not a sawmill expert so interpret this anyway you want. My wife and I demo"ed” the Oscar 18 and 28. These mills did not seem to be fabricated very well (weak). They came with 12’ of track (8’ log) and no water lube system. Granted they will sell you all the extras you want $$$. We did not get the mill. With that being said, my neighbor down the road has an Oscar 28 and likes it a lot. My Tech has a Woodmizer L15. This is a great mill. I demo"ed” the Lt10 as well and that was a very good mill. It was just too much money for me. I live between these dealers so I am lucky I can try them out. You may want to look into the Norwood Lumber Lite 24 (LL24). With your mechanical skills this may be a very good fit. It will mill a 24” by 12’ log and comes with a water bottle. The mill is in kit form and cost $2900 – no tax Canadian company. I picked my mill up in Buffalo NY at their warehouse so I am not sure about shipping. I will be post a “review” of my personal thoughts of this mill in the next couple of days. Every type of mill has it’s advantages. Best of luck.


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## VT-Woodchuck (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks guys, for all your input. Do I need a bandsaw mill - no. The Woodbug works well for me but a new toy is causing a big itch. I have cut several thousand bd ft of lumber over the past few years and enjoy it very much. Yes, I know that I can take the cants to a couple of different sawyers but what fun is that? I have 70 acres - mostly hardwoods and I have some trees to cut after storms. I don't know anybody who makes money with a bandsaw mill or csm. We do it for the enjoyment of unwrapping the package and see what beautiful wood is inside. Most of what I cut I use for "projects" or give to my son for his "projects". The bandsaw mills appear to be a little less strenuous. As suggested, I will continue to look/read/observe and continue to use the WB for the time being - if I don't get lost in the sawdust :hmm3grin2orange:


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## lmbeachy (Jul 10, 2007)

Very well said Woodchuck:


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## TedChristiansen (Jul 11, 2007)

VT-Woodchuck,

You are obviously sold on the ease of use of a csm. Now you want something that isnt as hard on the body. I encourage you to look at the Logosol Woodworkers Mill - it will give you both. They have a 30 day money back guarantee - try it!

Ted


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## lumberinspector (Jul 11, 2007)

Rodney



> And now if you figure that extra three or four passes on the planner because of wavy lunber from the bandmill, those three boards now become one. And the cost of band blades and getting them sharpened and --------------



I would assume by this quote (please correct me if I'm wrong) and your mention of the Norwood that you have had bad experience with a band mill. 

From my time in the planer building, you don't get three or four passes with wavy lumber if you are only cutting 4/4 stock to begin with. (1 1/8) 15/16 as the finished product does not give you much room to play with! 

Wavy lumber is caused by many factors and ALL can be corrected to produce quailty product.

If there is too much set than it will take more horse power to pull the blade which would cause the blade to dull faster...dull blade...wavy lumber...Too little set and the dust packs on the lumber creating heat in the band and shorting the flex lift....again wavy lumber! 

Your guides play a factor....feed speed plays a big role in wavy lumber...very sound knots...etc. etc. etc. 

The BIG thing of today are bandsaws due to the kerf and with the log and lumber market the way it is, you have to try and ramp up your over run not only with thin kerf technology but also with optimazation. 

Obviously if you are a hobbist etc. and are primarly using your lumber for yourself, than the above is not a factor. 

We are running a band headrig and a band resaw...yes we get SOME...wavy lumber but are quick to fix the problem. We can produce 40mbf/plus a day and not get even 100 bf of wavy lumber!  

If a person has a bandmill and does not do the research to properly learn how to operate it and or trouble shoot than the wavy lumber issue will frustrate the person to point of selling it! 

I know several guys who are running mizers that produce excellant lumber and are shipping truck load quanities to other larger mills/brokers and have no complaints. We have bought lumber from some portable mill guys and have been very pleased with the thickness/appearance/quailty. 

I would almost bet a guy could produce wavy lumber with a chainsaw mill too if not sharpened properly...

It all boils down to what your intentions are. 

If you not sharpening you own chains than you are paying for that just as you would to have your bands sharpened...Depending on type of chain/brand you can spend probably close to as much for a new band. Bands I think new are only about 25 bucks and you can cut a lot of lumber and if your custom cutting for someone and you hit hardware...the customer buys the band! 

Just my two cents.


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## lumberinspector (Jul 11, 2007)

Rodney



> And now if you figure that extra three or four passes on the planner because of wavy lunber from the bandmill, those three boards now become one. And the cost of band blades and getting them sharpened and --------------



I would assume by this quote (please correct me if I'm wrong) and your mention of the Norwood that you have had bad experience with a band mill. 

From my time in the planer building, you don't get three or four passes with wavy lumber if you are only cutting 4/4 stock to begin with. (1 1/8) 15/16 as the finished product does not give you much room to play with! 

Wavy lumber is caused by many factors and ALL can be corrected to produce quailty product.

If there is too much set than it will take more horse power to pull the blade which would cause the blade to dull faster...dull blade...wavy lumber...Too little set and the dust packs on the lumber creating heat in the band and shorting the flex lift....again wavy lumber! 

Your guides play a factor....feed speed plays a big role in wavy lumber...very sound knots...etc. etc. etc. 

The BIG thing of today are bandsaws due to the kerf and with the log and lumber market the way it is, you have to try and ramp up your over run not only with thin kerf technology but also with optimazation. 

Obviously if you are a hobbist etc. and are primarly using your lumber for yourself, than the above is not a factor. 

We are running a band headrig and a band resaw...yes we get SOME...wavy lumber but are quick to fix the problem. We can produce 40mbf/plus a day and not get even 100 bf of wavy lumber!  

If a person has a bandmill and does not do the research to properly learn how to operate it and or trouble shoot than the wavy lumber issue will frustrate the person to point of selling it! 

I know several guys who are running mizers that produce excellant lumber and are shipping truck load quanities to other larger mills/brokers and have no complaints. We have bought lumber from some portable mill guys and have been very pleased with the thickness/appearance/quailty. 

I would almost bet a guy could produce wavy lumber with a chainsaw mill too if not sharpened properly...

It all boils down to what your intentions are. 

If you not sharpening you own chains than you are paying for that just as you would to have your bands sharpened...Depending on type of chain/brand you can spend probably close to as much for a new band. Bands I think new are only about 25 bucks and you can cut a lot of lumber and if your custom cutting for someone and you hit hardware...the customer buys the band! 

Just my two cents.


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## Madsaw (Jul 12, 2007)

dustytools said:


> There is a Ripsaw on E-bay right now. I believe it is a XL-4. It has a 5HP Briggs on it and looks to be in good shape. The current bid is at $900. The only problem is that its a pick-up only item and its way up in Illinois.




I checked on that mill. Its just south of me some. I am going to talk to my granddad about it. He's been looking for a small scale unit like that .
Bob


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