# Alpine Butterfly let me down- Twice



## preventec47 (Mar 29, 2022)

I have been ramping up for a project to pull down 15 or 18 trees from 10 to 18 inchs in diameter. I need to redirect some leaning trees and bought a Wythe 3 ton "more power puller" and while waiting on my 300ft TENEX TEC 1/2" rope, I have been using 120 ft of 5/8"
all nylon braided rope on some smaller trees. On my first two trees I tied my pull rope up into the tree and after anchoring my
Wythe "more power puller" I had to tie an alpine butterfly loop into my pull line to hook up to my 35 ft of amsteel blue rope with a steel
hook coming out of my rope puller. The first tree I pulled down resulted in the alpine loop being jammed hard and I could not untie
with two channel lock pliers. So I had to leave the loop in the rope and I figured I probably tied the knot wrong so for the next knot
I used another method and double checked with rope knot book and once again at around 2500 pounds pull the alpine loop jammed hard . I paid too much money for my new rope to keep putting a bunch of loops into it so I figure I need to 
use sticks like for instance golf tees or 20 penney nails into the loop knot as I tie them to assure that I would be able to untie the knots later. I think part of the problem is that the extra elasticity of the nylon rope might be causing the knots to jam and my new
Tennex Tex rope has a medium elasticity and I dont want to take a chance of having knots jam in the rope permanently. 
The jammed knots dont much resemble the fresh tied knot and I am unsure where I should place the 20D nails or whatever else
I can find that I will be able to remove from the knot easily. I sure would like some suggestions. Thanks from Atlanta, GA


----------



## DBJR (Mar 29, 2022)

Bowline on a bight is what I use now after having the same problem with alpine butterfly. The alpine will jam in tenex too made the mistake with a winch line. Bowline on a bight is always easy to untie and with the two loops it forms can help add pulleys for more mechanical advantage.


----------



## Ted Jenkins (Mar 29, 2022)

I have never had problems like you describe on small trees. How high are you putting your tag lines. Using a different knot might be the best solution. Many times I will use just a wrap which seems to work well and is super easy to unravel. Many times I will use two lines to direct tree specifically to where they need to be which allows haft of the tension needed to get the job done. Thanks


----------



## Bango Skank (Mar 29, 2022)

Second the suggestion of using a bowline, bowline on a bite, circus bowline or whatever variation of the bowline anytime you’re pulling with mechanical advantage, trucks, winches or anything that’ll pull much harder than a person.

Another thing I’ll often do is a mid-line clove hitch and clip a steel carabiner in the loops. Clip your come along hook to the biner. It does cinch up pretty hard, but once you remove the carabiner it falls apart easily. Super fast and easy to tie too, and a very handy knot/ hitch to know.


----------



## windblown (Mar 29, 2022)

I almost exclusively use friction hitches to attach winches or block & tackle to a mainline. In some situations I might back up the friction hitch with a midline knot that will only go under tension if the friction hitch slips or fails but that is the exception for me rather than the norm.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 29, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I have never had problems like you describe on small trees. How high are you putting your tag lines. Using a different knot might be the best solution. Many times I will use just a wrap which seems to work well and is super easy to unravel. Many times I will use two lines to direct tree specifically to where they need to be which allows haft of the tension needed to get the job done. Thanks


What kind of different knot would you suggest ? What exactly do you mean by "wrap" that is easy to unravel ?


Bango Skank said:


> Second the suggestion of using a bowline, bowline on a bite, circus bowline or whatever variation of the bowline anytime you’re pulling with mechanical advantage, trucks, winches or anything that’ll pull much harder than a person.
> 
> Another thing I’ll often do is a mid-line clove hitch and clip a steel carabiner in the loops. Clip your come along hook to the biner. It does cinch up pretty hard, but once you remove the carabiner it falls apart easily. Super fast and easy to tie too, and a very handy knot/ hitch to know.


I have considered caribiners but concluded that caribiners were designed for body weight loads and not winching loads. I then looked as shackles and quick links
which are easily strong enough but would be too difficult to extricate from a knot.
I am surprised you are able to remove a caribiner from a hard jammed knot.
We need something like a slightly larger golf tee made from the stuff the wedges
are made of.


----------



## windblown (Mar 29, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> What kind of different knot would you suggest ? What exactly do you mean by "wrap" that is easy to unravel ?
> 
> I have considered caribiners but concluded that caribiners were designed for body weight loads and not winching loads. I then looked as shackles and quick links
> which are easily strong enough but would be too difficult to extricate from a knot.
> ...



I often use quicklinks or shackles though I have plenty of rated carbiners. I just prefer steel when weight is not an issue and I'm not using it for a live load. Though hardware store snap links need not apply. Here was a little experiment I ran on just a stump with a cheap but fairly stout looking hardware store snap link. It opened like it was made of cheese under load.



Here's a shot of a mainline I rigged into a red oak with a 20" base that was leaning towards the home. Pulled it right over against the lean no sweat. I've used similar but doubled set ups with two main lines for bigger trees. The far side of the block & tackle was attached to the mainline with a 10mm prusik cord using a 7 wrap Autoblock (French Prusik) hitch. The thing I like about friction hitches is they will (should) slip before you reach breaking strength of any other component in the system but properly set up that point is still way over the safe working strength of the ropes involved so it serves as the "weak link" to let you know you are seriously overloading the system before you reach the breaking point any point of the system.



Can't see the detail on the far end in the photo above but here is a shot of the prusik that attached the B&T to the mainline. Tough little jokers when you buy good ones, this one has a 5400lb break strength rating.


----------



## arathol (Mar 29, 2022)

The problem isn't the knot, its the rope.....just sayin.....


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 29, 2022)

Tenex does not make a good bullrope... poor abrasion resistance and very easy to jam knots up.


----------



## Ted Jenkins (Mar 29, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> What kind of different knot would you suggest ? What exactly do you mean by "wrap" that is easy to unravel ?
> 
> I have considered caribiners but concluded that caribiners were designed for body weight loads and not winching loads. I then looked as shackles and quick links
> which are easily strong enough but would be too difficult to extricate from a knot.
> ...


There are a few ways to make a wrap that I am aware of. The basic concept is to wrap the line around the tree then tuck one end under the wrap. As the line pulls tight the wrap tightens around the loose end. Until you try it it will mean nothing. I have yet to see one loosen a little. I pull much larger trees out of hung up trees with just one come a long. I often use a 6,000 lb hydraulic jack for extra support. When a tree is hung up I will jack up the base to move where it needs to be. Three of four wraps with a rope even if it is poor will make a tree very sturdy. Angle jack to the direction you need the tree to go. I also have several larger jacks for the more stubborn trees. Thanks


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 29, 2022)

Most rigging carabiners are rated for 25kn, you aren't going to break that.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 29, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Tenex does not make a good bullrope... poor abrasion resistance and very easy to jam knots up.


Well live and learn. I shopped all over for a week and found 300 ft Tenex Tec for $.72 a foot with free ship and looking at the strength and slightly lower elasticity than the other cheap ropes is why I picked it. There seems to be a big jump from dynamic stretchy ropes from about 1 dollar a foot to the static non stretchy ropes at $5 a foot and more. No in between that I could find. This is for a 15 or 20 tree project so I will attempt to baby the rope regarding abrasion and I will use large plastic ground spikes in the knots to hopefully prevent hard jamming in the mid line loops or any other knots.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 29, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Well live and learn. I shopped all over for a week and found 300 ft Tenex Tec for $.72 a foot with free ship and looking at the strength and slightly lower elasticity than the other cheap ropes is why I picked it. There seems to be a big jump from dynamic stretchy ropes from about 1 dollar a foot to the static non stretchy ropes at $5 a foot and more. No in between that I could find. This is for a 15 or 20 tree project so I will attempt to baby the rope regarding abrasion and I will use large plastic ground spikes in the knots to hopefully prevent hard jamming in the mid line loops or any other knots.


I still don't understand why you are so against dynamic ropes... It's stored energy.


----------



## Bango Skank (Mar 29, 2022)

Polyester High Tenacity Double Braid Coated Bull Rope ropes - Lowest prices, free shipping | Maple Leaf Ropes







www.mapleleafropes.com





Here’s some pretty static polyester rope for a good price.
Browse around their site and you’ll find pure nylon stretchy double braid ropes and nylon core, polyester jacket for somewhere in between.

I got a spool of the nylon/ polyester double braid, it’s great quality stuff, and a fine price.


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 29, 2022)

Tenex will jam up pretty bad under a load. An Alpine Butterfly will jam up under a decent load on about any rope though. Tenex Tec is hollow so there's nothing ro keep it from tangling up on itself. I would recommend any other rigging rope over Tenex for this application. I love Tenex and splice a lot of it for slings. It doesn't like knots or dynamic loading though.


----------



## Harmon (Mar 29, 2022)

And an alpine butterfly is for climbing and mountaineering. Why are we tying knots in the middle of ropes again? did I miss something?


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 29, 2022)

Doesn't have to be the middle. I use it for a base tie for my climb line. A also use it for a top tie if I'm going to climb Srt then swap to Ddrt to work the tree. I don't do that often but it's good to know. 

I also use an AP if I'm setting up a 3 to 1 to pull over a spar or tree. Its a good midline knot for setting the pulley for the 3 to 1 or even just using a truckers hitch.


----------



## Harmon (Mar 29, 2022)

Sure though I had the understanding the advantage of the Alpine Putterfly is it can be tied midline and can be untied after being loaded with say, a climber taking a fall or a long haul of gear up a face. of course very few climbers use hollow core rope like the tenex, right, its for slings. Out of curiosity why would a guy use it in a terminal application and what is "base tie for my climb line" ?

I think the obvious for the OP is once you tie knots and get a come along involved, all bets are off!


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 29, 2022)

Yeah. It will untie pretty easy with the climbers weight and a little extra. If you start pulling on an AP with a truck or winch, it's going to bind up on about any type of rope. 

A base tie. In Srt (stationary rope technique) you can have either a top tie or a base tie. A top tie, you pull your rope up and over a limb and tie a running bowline and pull it up. Then climb the rope. A base tie, you throw your rope over a suitable limb, back to the ground then tie it at the base of the tree, then climb the rope. I use it a lot when pulling trees over. A lot of times I don't isolate the perfect limb on the first throw but if the limb is strong enough, I'll let the throw bag drop down the backside of the tree then pull the rope back up and over the limb and use a base tie on the back side of the tree. Pull the tree over, untie the base tie and pull the rope out. It takes a longer rope. Usually a 200 ft is more than enough im my area.


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 29, 2022)

Here is a vid I made a few years back using the AP for a top tie.


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 29, 2022)

Back to the original post. This is one of Patrick's vids. It might help in your situation.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 30, 2022)

Harmon said:


> Sure though I had the understanding the advantage of the Alpine Putterfly is it can be tied midline and can be untied after being loaded with say, a climber taking a fall or a long haul of gear up a face. of course very few climbers use hollow core rope like the tenex, right, its for slings. Out of curiosity why would a guy use it in a terminal application and what is "base tie for my climb line" ?
> 
> I think the obvious for the OP is once you tie knots and get a come along involved, all bets are off!


He's been reinventing the wheel this whole project.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I still don't understand why you are so against dynamic ropes... It's stored energy.


yes absolutely, Stored energy like GUNPOWDER. an embarrassing story.....
several years ago my mom wanted me to dig up a bush in front of her house
and I had stumbled across a section of big rope at a garage sale approx 1.25 inch
dia that was synthetic and had a core and cover. I had used it several times for
towing stuck vehicles out of ditch etc. So I tied it around the bush and the trailer hitch on my Dodge Ram 1500. I tried to gently pull the bush after digging around the
roots etc but it would not budge so I started getting little running starts with about 50 feet between the bush and the truck.. Finally at about ten mph the jerk worked.
There was a gradual slowing down as the rope stretched like a rubber band and
At exactly the same time as the bush was yanked out, the rope broke at the knot
on my trailer ball. There was a sound of an explosion like a gun shot and then
crashing glass. The fifty feet of rope had shot over the bush and through
all three front facing windows of my moms living room taking out the window
framing as well. THIS is why I am against dynamic rope.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> He's been reinventing the wheel this whole project.





benjo75 said:


> Tenex will jam up pretty bad under a load. An Alpine Butterfly will jam up under a decent load on about any rope though. Tenex Tec is hollow so there's nothing ro keep it from tangling up on itself. I would recommend any other rigging rope over Tenex for this application. I love Tenex and splice a lot of it for slings. It doesn't like knots or dynamic loading though.


OF all the cheap ropes available, this chart is the reason why I picked the Tennex TEC
https://www.samsonrope.com/resources/arborist/rigging-line-comparison
Tennex TEC was simply the strongest rope in the chart and if I remember the conversion with the factory rep it had lower elasticity than of any of the ropes shown.

Apparently due to the other factors mentioned it appears that others consider it a bad choice. I still dont know what a better choice would have been with my budget.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

Harmon said:


> And an alpine butterfly is for climbing and mountaineering. Why are we tying knots in the middle of ropes again? did I miss something?


I have a rope puller and I am pulling down trees. I need a way to connect my rope puller rope that terminates with a metal hook to the pull rope tied high up in the tree.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> There are a few ways to make a wrap that I am aware of. The basic concept is to wrap the line around the tree then tuck one end under the wrap. As the line pulls tight the wrap tightens around the loose end. Until you try it it will mean nothing. I have yet to see one loosen a little. I pull much larger trees out of hung up trees with just one come a long. I often use a 6,000 lb hydraulic jack for extra support. When a tree is hung up I will jack up the base to move where it needs to be. Three of four wraps with a rope even if it is poor will make a tree very sturdy. Angle jack to the direction you need the tree to go. I also have several larger jacks for the more stubborn trees. Thanks


Yes of course, your "WRAP" is referred to as "Round Turn" in some of the rope books
and with several round turns around an object that the rope can grip to (strangles as it tightens) , all you need to tie the rope off is two or three loose half hitches. There is almost zero tension when you finally get to the knot.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> He's been reinventing the wheel this whole project.


Jolly Logger, I dont understand your negative insinuation. I have a project, so far
I have spent about a thousand dollars on equipment and I have made what I thought to be some good choices. I am extremely pleased with the 3 ton Wythe "more power puller" come along winch, I have a robust snatch block and several half inch quick links and a 3/4 inch shackle. My rope just arrived yesterday. I have watched at least thirty you tube videos and been to more than a dozen arbor supply websites.
I have not seen where what you call the "wheel" is nicely laid out with all the details.
Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
This might be the solution to my problem as I cannot figure out how to insert sticks or pins into an Alpine Butterfly loop when tying the knot to make it easy to untie after
big loads on the knot. 
*
It sure seems to me that some kind of hardware device ought to exist
that could be connected to a rope that would allow attachment like what I need
without having to tie knots mid line.*


----------



## 501Maico (Mar 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Jolly Logger, I dont understand your negative insinuation. I have a project, so far
> I have spent about a thousand dollars on equipment and I have made what I thought to be some good choices. I am extremely pleased with the 3 ton Wythe "more power puller" come along winch, I have a robust snatch block and several half inch quick links and a 3/4 inch shackle. My rope just arrived yesterday. I have watched at least thirty you tube videos and been to more than a dozen arbor supply websites.
> I have not seen where what you call the "wheel" is nicely laid out with all the details.
> Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
> ...



I wouldn't use a alpine butterfly which is best for right angle loads. The directional knot like shown in the video works well and it won't bind up under load.
Also, yanking a bush out with a moving truck and pulling over a tree are very different.


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 30, 2022)

That should work, as an evolution to fig.8,9,10 (Life on a Line) strategies.
This pulls more properly along the length of the rope by design,
where a B'Fly really is designed to not pull eye, or pull less than mains/ends
AND at perpendicular angle to rest of rope.
Any pull to eye, BALANCED to each end, knot staying centered. not distorted to one side.
.
In the end seems to me B'Fly not designed for this usage;
and actually mostly does better than it should in this usage;
because it is so good, 
not failing as does so bad, is really pulled wrong and doing all it can!
.
Usually can get B'Fly straightened out by giving a more major pull end2end to re-align B'Fly to Natural position/parts alignment. Then work out.
As a pre-fix can put removable stick or pin in so can't seat as tight.
ALSO, if dress/seat ropeParts tight, so it can't get a running start on a jam, especially to errant position;
because is already well seated, seems to help..
Just as would be best to align and seat well in other materials of wood, plastic, metal..;
to really give tool a chance to shine.


----------



## windblown (Mar 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
> 
> *It sure seems to me that some kind of hardware device ought to exist
> that could be connected to a rope that would allow attachment like what I need
> without having to tie knots mid line.*



There are a few. You could use a progress capture pulley or gibbs for example to attach anywhere you wanted and move it as desired but they are pricey and very hard on ropes when heavily loaded, not recommended. Here is a video of the technique I mentioned earlier. They are using a fiddle block to pull the tree but the device used to create the force doesn't matter. You can attach your hook from your winch in the same way. The details of the rigging set-up start at about 3:50 in the video. The bottom line is if you are seriously loading up a mainline/bullrope then a midline knot is going to be troublesome regardless of the rope type used.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> yes absolutely, Stored energy like GUNPOWDER. an embarrassing story.....
> several years ago my mom wanted me to dig up a bush in front of her house
> and I had stumbled across a section of big rope at a garage sale approx 1.25 inch
> dia that was synthetic and had a core and cover. I had used it several times for
> ...


No, this is why you don't buy bullrope at garage sales... and yanking a bush has nothing to do with pulling trees.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

windblown said:


> There are a few. You could use a progress capture pulley or gibbs for example to attach anywhere you wanted and move it as desired but they are pricey and very hard on ropes when heavily loaded, not recommended. Here is a video of the technique I mentioned earlier. They are using a fiddle block to pull the tree but the device used to create the force doesn't matter. You can attach your hook from your winch in the same way. The details of the rigging set-up start at about 3:50 in the video. The bottom line is if you are seriously loading up a mainline/bullrope then a midline knot is going to be troublesome regardless of the rope type used.



That video was pretty impressive and the caribener and micro pulley would be easy
to acquire but I have no idea what kind of rope would be needed with the two small
eyelets that wrapped around the pull rope and then hooked into the caribener.
Since my pull rope is intended to be the half inch Tenex Tec ...... where would I acquire the short rope needed as used in the video ? The iceing on the cake in that video is that they were able to pull out all the loose rope and tension it all before using up the slack in the pulley block system. I will be using two pulleys which ends up being a 3 to 1 advantage I think.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Jolly Logger, I dont understand your negative insinuation. I have a project, so far
> I have spent about a thousand dollars on equipment and I have made what I thought to be some good choices. I am extremely pleased with the 3 ton Wythe "more power puller" come along winch, I have a robust snatch block and several half inch quick links and a 3/4 inch shackle. My rope just arrived yesterday. I have watched at least thirty you tube videos and been to more than a dozen arbor supply websites.
> I have not seen where what you call the "wheel" is nicely laid out with all the details.
> Right now I seem to be stuck on how to connect metal hook to the pull line.
> ...



Overwhelmingly it was recommended you go with a masdaam... you went with the more power puller, causing your attachment problems. No one recommended tenex, yet here you are. How is that not reinventing the wheel?


----------



## windblown (Mar 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> That video was pretty impressive and the caribener and micro pulley would be easy
> to acquire but I have no idea what kind of rope would be needed with the two small
> eyelets that wrapped around the pull rope and then hooked into the caribener.
> Since my pull rope is intended to be the half inch Tenex Tec ...... where would I acquire the short rope needed as used in the video ? The iceing on the cake in that video is that they were able to pull out all the loose rope and tension it all before using up the slack in the pulley block system. I will be using two pulleys which ends up being a 3 to 1 advantage I think.


The smaller rope with the sewn eyelets is commonly called a Prusik cord and are available premade in various lengths and diameters. I use 10mm diameter but am using a slightly thicker bull rope. You may need to go down to 8mm to get a good grip on 1/2" line, it depends some on how stiff the prusik cord and bull rope are, and how slick the covering is etc. My advice if you want to go that route is to get a 10mm and an 8mm diameter cord and do some on the ground testing first. Something around 30" to 36" should work to let you get enough wraps for a good grab.

There are several different ways to skin this cat. The Auto-block (French Prusik) shown in the video has a (undeserved IMHO) reputation for slipping easier than some other friction hitches but those making that claim tend to only use 4 wraps. 7 to 8 wraps creates a much stronger grip. I'd trust a 7 wrap auto-block over a std 3 or 4 wrap prusik. The Klemheist is another directional friction hitch that works well if enough wraps are used but for this one particular use I think the auto-block works great and it's pretty foolproof and quick to set up.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 30, 2022)

Use this all the time, pulling with a 20000# winch, never had it not come loose, though like any knot it can weaken the rope at the knot.

Its not "tested or OSHA approved" as I'm pretty sure this is from the damaged brain of a gyppo logger and punk rock "icon" but it does work well



Its basically just a mid line clove hitch tied to itself, make your loops like you would a normal clove, the take the top and pull it down and back up through the loops, hopefully the video shows it better, though I do tend to ramble.


----------



## northmanlogging (Mar 30, 2022)

It has slipped one time, but all it did was tighten down on the shackle, and that was with a 3-1 hooked back to the skidder and pulling pretty hard... things got squirrelly but the knot held and the tree went mostly were it was supposed to.


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Overwhelmingly it was recommended you go with a masdaam... you went with the more power puller, causing your attachment problems. No one recommended tenex, yet here you are. How is that not reinventing the wheel?


I could not get comfortable with the idea of a friction based come-along tensioned on a tree leaning in the wrong direction that needs to be pulled backwards. Plus the
More Power Puller is a real winch with more pull power than the Maasdam Puller. It is true that with the Massdam puller you could pull the entire length of the rope without connection ..... Your comments convinced me I would be ok with the Alpine Butterfly as a connection between the Wythe Puller and my pull rope so that is one reason why I bought it. Turns out your comments were bad advice and I should have asked you if you had ever actually tried what you were suggesting. Regardless I am very appreciative regarding your many helpful suggestions and the permanent loops
are in what I call a practice nylon rope. The cost of the lesson was pretty small.
I dont recall any suggestions for my main new pull rope so I picked the Tenex Tec
based on factory strength and stretch specs and cost and was told by factory rep
that it was braided which sounded fine to me AND the factory describes it as a WINCH rope. That sounded awfully good. No where did I see that the Tenex TEC rope was a hollow braided tube. The new rope was delivered last night and I just opened the box this morning.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 30, 2022)

I never recommended an alpine butterfly on 3 strand or tenex.


----------



## Harmon (Mar 30, 2022)

Ive heard the tenex makes pretty good winch line, tho its got nothing on the amsteel blue, which is also hollow braid. Dont tie knots in your winch line is still a rule. Easy to splice, though.

Now come alongs come along in all different sizes, and instead of knots and friction hitches if a guy realllllly wants to pull trees agin their lean with come alongs, maybe he needs 2 of them? You could ratchet up a bunch of pull, and when your spool gets full up start pulling with the next one? could be fun? 

Also, there are metal devices a guy could use midline instead of a knot or friction hitch. Your porta wraps, and various rigging figure 8s. It might be wrong, but it could work. More so than golf tees in a alpine butterfly. But, $$$


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 30, 2022)

That's what I was thinking. A large port a wrap. We've pulled trees over with it. Buried the bucket truck two days ago. No good place on the back of the tractor to connect the rope. Connected the port a wrap to the tractor with a big clevis, set the tractor on the pavement, took up the slack and tied the rope to the port a wrap and pulled it out using two 3/4 stable braid. It was buried all the way around.


----------



## mudrat2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Rather than the alpine butterfly knot mid-line, why not use a drop figure 8 knot?


----------



## benjo75 (Mar 30, 2022)

I have used that too. Not sure how it would untie on Tenex though.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 30, 2022)

benjo75 said:


> I have used that too. Not sure how it would untie on Tenex though.


Nothing untie on Tenex


----------



## Bango Skank (Mar 30, 2022)

So how’d that bowline on a bight work out for you?


----------



## preventec47 (Mar 30, 2022)

benjo75 said:


> I have used that too. Not sure how it would untie on Tenex though.


I should clarify that I opened my just received new rope this morning ( Tenex Tec) and I can see what everyone is talking about.
It obviously will NOT work, I made a big mistake, I am asking to return the new rope and exchange for Stable Braid 1/2 inch and pay
for extra costs incurred so my project is set back for a while. Meanwhile my 120 foot 5/8 nylon "practice" rope broke today at the
bowline knot up on the tree trunk when I really winched hard on the more power puller. The extra 300 feet of rope I am ordering
will be for my 2 or 3 to 1 mechanical advantage setup with my pulleys.. Thanks to the great input from Arbor Site members and
youtube videos I have seen two or three different prusik type mid line tie in techniques, a Figure 8 decender hardware option, and
several differnt knot alternatives including bowline on a bight, Artillery Loop, modified Prussic and something called the RosenCinch
knot that is very appealing and that supposedly will not jam with the creation of a mid line loop.

I also ordered today a 50 KN figure 8 descender and a 50KN steel carabiner today from Amazon.

I still need to figure out the exact specs of the prusik cords I would need for my new rope when I get it.

*RosenRing cinch for 3 to 1 advantage


Prussik attaching to pull rope 


Prussik attaching to pull rope at 7:20


Prussik details 
*


----------



## Bango Skank (Mar 30, 2022)

Hopefully they’ll work with you on the return. 
If not, you can probably sell it here, but people would probably want lengths suitable for splicing slings.

Also you can make yourself some slings. This is the ideal rope to learn splicing on, it’s very easy to work with, and most errors can be undone. Don’t be intimidated, splicing this stuff is just following some pretty simple instructions. I used to feel intimidated by the idea of splicing something that would be critical to support a climber or hold a piece that would cause property damage or injury or death if it failed. Other rope construction is definitely trickier, but this stuff is simple and you don’t really need actual fids or specialty tools. Can use a wire coat hanger or piece of baling wire. A simple homemade fid my chopping a sharpie marker in half, or can taper the ends a little and tape them tightly if you’d be making an UltraSling.

It’s kinda fun and satisfying, especially when you see what the arborist supply shops charge for an UltraSling.


----------



## TheJollyLogger (Mar 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I should clarify that I opened my just received new rope this morning ( Tenex Tec) and I can see what everyone is talking about.
> It obviously will NOT work, I made a big mistake, I am asking to return the new rope and exchange for Stable Braid 1/2 inch and pay
> for extra costs incurred so my project is set back for a while. Meanwhile my 120 foot 5/8 nylon "practice" rope broke today at the
> bowline knot up on the tree trunk when I really winched hard on the more power puller. The extra 300 feet of rope I am ordering
> ...



I want to acknowledge you, you just learned the most important lesson in this business... if it's not going to work, stop and reassess... you get plenty of times to get it right, and only one chance to get it wrong. I apologize if I seemed dismissive. It does get frustrating sometimes when homeowners ask for advice and then dismiss it or argue with it... speaking for most of the pros on here, we learned these lessons the hard way, and are just trying to help.


----------



## Howard Justice (Nov 23, 2022)

windblown said:


> The smaller rope with the sewn eyelets is commonly called a Prusik cord and are available premade in various lengths and diameters. I use 10mm diameter but am using a slightly thicker bull rope. You may need to go down to 8mm to get a good grip on 1/2" line, it depends some on how stiff the prusik cord and bull rope are, and how slick the covering is etc. My advice if you want to go that route is to get a 10mm and an 8mm diameter cord and do some on the ground testing first. Something around 30" to 36" should work to let you get enough wraps for a good grab.
> 
> There are several different ways to skin this cat. The Auto-block (French Prusik) shown in the video has a (undeserved IMHO) reputation for slipping easier than some other friction hitches but those making that claim tend to only use 4 wraps. 7 to 8 wraps creates a much stronger grip. I'd trust a 7 wrap auto-block over a std 3 or 4 wrap prusik. The Klemheist is another directional friction hitch that works well if enough wraps are used but for this one particular use I think the auto-block works great and it's pretty foolproof and quick to set up.


Agreed. 7-8 wraps. And you can make your own Prusik cord using double overhand knot at each end. There are others methods as well.


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 26, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Well live and learn. I shopped all over for a week and found 300 ft Tenex Tec for $.72 a foot with free ship and looking at the strength and slightly lower elasticity than the other cheap ropes is why I picked it. There seems to be a big jump from dynamic stretchy ropes from about 1 dollar a foot to the static non stretchy ropes at $5 a foot and more. No in between that I could find. This is for a 15 or 20 tree project so I will attempt to baby the rope regarding abrasion and I will use large plastic ground spikes in the knots to hopefully prevent hard jamming in the mid line loops or any other knots.



Why don't you just abandon the difficult-to-tie knot that binds up and ruins your rope?

I have never understood the appeal of the alpine butterfly, except that it is equally strong when pulled in both directions. If you won't be pulling the same knot with equal force from either end of the rope, then don't use that knot! Bowline on a bight is equally strong in both directions, and it doesn't bind up irreversibly.

I have never found any documentation that suggests it is a good plan to stick stuff in the middle of a knot, except to facilitate taking the knot apart. When you stick a spike in the middle of your butterfly, you are sacrificing all the good things about that knot, and turning it into an unpredictable (therefore unsafe) knot to use.

The friction hitch is also a good plan.

And then there is this:


Bango Skank said:


> Another thing I’ll often do is a mid-line clove hitch and clip a steel carabiner in the loops. Clip your come along hook to the biner.



I don't consider a clove hitch to be a suitable knot for a carabiner. It can unroll from a slick round object. Use an anchor hitch or a double/triple fisherman's. If you are into knots, you will discover that the anchor hitch is just a clove hitch tied around a couple of wraps on the pole/ring/carabiner that you are using.
Bunt-line is a good option too, and also incorporates a clove hitch as part of it's structure.


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 26, 2022)

This has been my go-to knot for the last 40 years. It's a bit sensitive to being dressed properly, but it holds great, and it won't bind up, even in Tenex.


----------

