# Stihl MS441CRM-Tronic Ported Work Saw Review



## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

It has finally arrived a Ported MS441CRM-Tronic work saw that will be used felling and blocking up Sugargum plantasions for firewood.
The way this came about was one day i was felling big ish Sugargums with a ported 660 and 25'' bar and after lugging that around all day and filling it up with fuel every 5 mins and the vibes make my hands and arms tingle i got to thinking there must be a better way im getting to old for this im nackered.
The 441CM- Tronic the wrap model has a lot going for it
Less weight
Better AV (the wrap has stiffer springs)
Less fuel
High output oiler for 28'' bar
No tune
Twin large bumper spikes
Roller chain catcher
All the things i wont in a saw and if it was ported as well,ya got to have one.
Not into wrap handles so got the standard one put on.
Thanks to three blokes in the US this has come to life and here it is.
There is a vid coming.


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## Slamm (Oct 18, 2011)

Looks good, let us know how it works for you.

Sam


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## dave k (Oct 18, 2011)

Looking forward to the vid. You are dead right about the AV I just replaced the springs on my standard 441 with the stiffer ones and it's like a new saw !


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

This vid is with the saw on its first tank of fuel after three head cycles (worm up let cool down) with a 20'' bar and a Carlton 3/8 .063 full chisel chain 8 pin sprocket.Im have not been pushing this saw hard at all just a run in stage for know.Its interesting to see how the saw adjusts its self to things like knots in the wood,watch when i use the spikes how it changes its tune to compensate for the extra load.I didnt find that it hunted around and didnt take long to sort its self out.One think i find very strange is you have to trust it as in tune,its a bit hard to get your head around you cant control any of its thinking,adjust the chain oiler with the little screw driver then chuck it over your sholder.
So far so good,i will get afew tanks through it the put it up against my stock ozzy 460 in differant woods and bar lengths and see what happen,may even give the 660 a scare.:eek2:

[video=youtube;JHxqvg-K6Ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHxqvg-K6Ws[/video]


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## young (Oct 18, 2011)

nice, so better then expected?


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

Its a bit hard to say yet im not used to cutting that type of soft wood normally, but yes i feels strong allready got to give it some time and more fuel through it and some real wood.:msp_thumbsup:


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## young (Oct 18, 2011)

keep us posted.


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## Rudolf73 (Oct 18, 2011)

Sounds good!


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## porsche965 (Oct 18, 2011)

Subscribed. This is going to get good. 

opcorn:opcorn:


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## FATGUY (Oct 18, 2011)

can't wait to see it in some nasty wood!


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## MCW (Oct 18, 2011)

Subscribing and you still suck Andrew...


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

MCW said:


> Subscribing and you still suck Andrew...


 
If you dont start being nice you wont get to play with it.

One thing i found today is the Works Connection tach wont work on it properly,at idle it seam ok bur at rpm its like its doubled,i changed the settings on the tach but no good.The coil or something is differant than other saws ?.


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## deye223 (Oct 18, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> This vid is with the saw on its first tank of fuel after three head cycles (worm up let cool down) with a 20'' bar and a Carlton 3/8 .063 full chisel chain 8 pin sprocket.Im have not been pushing this saw hard at all just a run in stage for know.Its interesting to see how the saw adjusts its self to things like knots in the wood,watch when i use the spikes how it changes its tune to compensate for the extra load.I didnt find that it hunted around and didnt take long to sort its self out.One think i find very strange is you have to trust it as in tune,its a bit hard to get your head around you cant control any of its thinking,adjust the chain oiler with the little screw driver then chuck it over your sholder.
> So far so good,i will get afew tanks through it the put it up against my stock ozzy 460 in dirrerant woods and bar lengths and see what happen,may even give the 660 a scare.:eek2:
> 
> [video=youtube;JHxqvg-K6Ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHxqvg-K6Ws[/video]


 
nice vid and bloody great saw andrew, my moneys on the 660 haha


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

We will see about that,if the 660 wins on speed thats is all it will have going for it for a felling saw anyway.But for blocking Ozzy hard woods the 660s are king.


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## FATGUY (Oct 18, 2011)

deye223 said:


> nice vid and bloody great saw andrew, my moneys on the 660 haha


 
not a chance in that sized wood....


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## deye223 (Oct 18, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> .But for blocking Ozzy hard woods the 660s are king.


 
thats the bit that counts for me . are we talking about MS660 Snellerized and yep they drink like a drunken salior


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

When i get the 441 run in i will put my stock 460,660 with BB kit and the Snellerized660 same bar chain all together and see what happens.:msp_unsure:


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## imagineero (Oct 18, 2011)

what are you doing with your right hand on the cylinder after each cut? Is there some kind of adjustment in there?

MY groundie just broke my 044, and it doesnt really look like its worth repairing. I'm looking for either a 440, 441 or 460 so I'm pretty interested in hearing what you think of this saw. Porting by brad? Price landed in aus?

Shaun


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## deye223 (Oct 18, 2011)

imagineero said:


> what are you doing with your right hand on the cylinder after each cut? Is there some kind of adjustment in there?
> 
> MY groundie just broke my 044, and it doesnt really look like its worth repairing. I'm looking for either a 440, 441 or 460 so I'm pretty interested in hearing what you think of this saw. Porting by brad? Price landed in aus?
> 
> Shaun


 
i'd say checken temp maybe ?? :msp_thumbsup:


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

Im feeling the cylinder fins temp and the air coming past them,this is a very specail saw and im being very fussy with its run in.These ported 441 Cs are very few and far between,i dont even thinks you can get a stock one in Australia yet.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 18, 2011)

Nice pic's, that's exactly the saw I'm wanting right now, although it would likely be wearing a 25" bar. Guess I'm gonna' have to sell a few things...


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## deye223 (Oct 18, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Nice pic's, that's exactly the saw I'm wanting right now, although it would likely be wearing a 25" bar. Guess I'm gonna' have to sell a few things...


 
not the .45


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## Officer's Match (Oct 18, 2011)

deye223 said:


> not the .45



Not _that_ 45, probably one of my Colts, and perhaps one of the twins (028 Super).


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## deye223 (Oct 18, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Not _that_ 45, probably one of my Colts, and perhaps one of the twins (028 Super).


 
:msp_unsure: ???????????


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## CR500 (Oct 18, 2011)

I think the new 441 can handle itself pretty good when ported, I will be looking forward to a 460 vs a 441 match the most though. If it can beat up on a 460 it looks like I may just have to buy the CM instead of the new 461 only time will tell I guess. I mean if a ported CM can pull a 32'' bar on a occasion I may get that over a new unreleased 461


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## Officer's Match (Oct 18, 2011)

CR500 said:


> I think the new 441 can handle itself pretty good when ported, I will be looking forward to a 460 vs a 441 match the most though. If it can beat up on a 460 it looks like I may just have to buy the CM instead of the new 461 only time will tell I guess. I mean if a ported CM can pull a 32'' bar on a occasion I may get that over a new unreleased 461



Yeah, I'd love to see the 441C up against some know standards like a 460 and a 372. In fact, I think a really cool build-off would be a Strato 70cc class competition.


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## blsnelling (Oct 18, 2011)

Don't be surprised if the 441 beats the 660s in that size wood. They turn higher RPMs. That's what I love so much about 70cc class saws.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thats an inyeresting point you make there Brad,it sounds like its doing high rpms but i dont think it is,im know Johns is about 13300 if i remember correctly,i will tach it today if time allows.


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## MCW (Oct 18, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> Don't be surprised if the 441 beats the 660s in that size wood. They turn higher RPMs. That's what I love so much about 70cc class saws.



Until you start really loading the saw and the 660 keps it's revs  I've done that comparo before with my stock 3120 and it pumped my other modded saws. Revs are cool bananas but torque also counts a lot. Oh and I'm bigger than you so can apply more of my gravitational affect 



Stihlman441 said:


> If you dont start being nice you wont get to play with it.







Stihlman441 said:


> One thing i found today is the Works Connection tach wont work on it properly,at idle it seam ok bur at rpm its like its doubled,i changed the settings on the tach but no good.The coil or something is differant than other saws ?.



Interesting mate. When I tried to tach that little 241C M-Tronic at that forestry course my Fast Tach seemed to play around a bit too.


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## blsnelling (Oct 18, 2011)

My Fast Tach is totally useless on my 441 as well.


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## deye223 (Oct 18, 2011)

MCW said:


> Oh and I'm bigger than you so can apply more of my gravitational affect
> 
> hay matt were talking about chainsaws not black holes HAHAHA :msp_biggrin: :msp_biggrin:


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## porsche965 (Oct 18, 2011)

My MS441 C bumps the rev limiter, fuel shut off, or however it limits the RPMs at 13,300, that is correct. It sounds way higher than it really is, however it also holds rpms higher in the cut than any other saw I have. 
Next time out I'll get some under load 28" bar rpms and see where she is. The torque is quite amazing.

Having a limited amount of wood to cut and enjoying to cut wood, I actually have found myself taking any other saw out to use than the 441 C simply because it is such a high production saw and can get through alot of wood in a hurry, bringing my fun to an end sooner than hoped for. :msp_sad: Never thought I would leave a saw home because it was too fast! And a large part of the speed comes from the efficiency and mileage of the saw. 

But when they (Country Club) are in a big "get 'er done hurry" that's the saw I grab first.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ok guys have been playing with the 441C in a work environment this time as it will have to get used to it or pack its bags.We are on the second tank today and got into my late season Stringbark firewood, had interesting couple of hours.The more i use this saw the more i like it,its amazing how it adjusts its self as you go,in the vid you can see when i put the dogs in and push it seams to find another gear and away it goes,when you push instead of bogging down like a normal saw it gust keeps going and even increases in rpm if this is how saws are going to be in the future than i m all for it bring it on 661C.
I allso had a little experiment today i normally use Caltex Premium fuel 95 Ron Octane no Ethanol but on the way out to the bush i got some BP Ultimate Premium 98 Ron Octane no Ethanol fuel so on the third tank i used this,well it didn't like it for a min or so and then after it worked it out all was good again.So far i am very impressed with this saw and its performance.
To be continued.












[video=youtube;NvVhUR9b-Vc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvVhUR9b-Vc[/video]


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## Officer's Match (Oct 18, 2011)

Lookin' good.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

CR500 said:


> I think the new 441 can handle itself pretty good when ported, I will be looking forward to a 460 vs a 441 match the most though. If it can beat up on a 460 it looks like I may just have to buy the CM instead of the new 461 only time will tell I guess. I mean if a ported CM can pull a 32'' bar on a occasion I may get that over a new unreleased 461


 
From what i have heard the new 461 will not be a M-Tronic.
But i am really really hopping the 661 is.:msp_unsure:


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

MCW said:


> Until you start really loading the saw and the 660 keps it's revs  I've done that comparo before with my stock 3120 and it pumped my other modded saws. Revs are cool bananas but torque also counts a lot. Oh and I'm bigger than you so can apply more of my gravitational affect
> 
> 
> I agree what you say here matt but
> ...


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## porsche965 (Oct 19, 2011)

What I've realized with the m tronic platform is that an operator isn't alone anymore with the saw in the woods. The intelligence of the electronics is like watching a "little man" with a screwdriver constantly tuning the H screw in the
cut all the time. 

Time flies by like never before as the wood piles up along with the chips while being entertained by the 441c.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

Something i forgot to share is the AV with the stiffer springs i think it is spot on,thats one thing i didnt like about the first one i had and ya its as smooth as people have said,i cant see any of those tingley hands from this saw.


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## MCW (Oct 19, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I agree what you say here matt but
> In the above vid watch what happens when i use the spikes and apply more pressure,its like it re tunes its self and finds another gear and in fact even increases rpm.So i assume it richens its self up thus increasing torque,very clever this system but i dont know what a stock one does with standard electronic settings ?.




Hey I agree witt the self tuning bit mate as it's awesome. But one thing M-Tronic can't bridge is an overall torque gap of 22cc when you lean into it. I'd love to be proven wrong though and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way either. You've got stock 660's that it will pump but a modded 660 me no think so. But then again you won't have to fill the 441 up every 5 minutes 
By the way I have my "mini" 441C M- Tronic (MS241C) on it's way from England  Had to jump through a few hurdles so they'd post it to me (ie: prove I'm a business etc) but very very impressed with this company's service, and price. If any other Aussies want one of these let me know 



Stihlman441 said:


> If Stihl can come up with a 90 ish cc saw with this M-Tronic system on it look out thats going to be one bad ass saw.



Ken oath old son. Scary stuff indeed...


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## porsche965 (Oct 19, 2011)

I fully agree with displacement being very difficult to overcome, especially running long bars. Maybe we all are thinking too much about comparing the 660 to the 441. This saw is only 70cc and should be compared to like kind to be fair. But most of us are always over reaching, me included, to the next Big Saw up in the rankings, to justify just how good the size saw is that we have. That's why having 20cc spacing is a good plan, Brad has always been a strong proponent of this idea and I fully agree. However CAD does get in the way! 

Having said all that brings me back to this particular 441C fully ported saw. IMO, cc vs. cc. this is the very best in it's class all things considered equal at this time. Mileage, suspension, adaptability to elevation/fuel, filtration, and saw build quality. 

This particular saw being fully ported and called a Sawzilla, FOR NOW, is one very nice 70cc chainsaw that makes you feel more a team, man and machine, instead of just cutting firewood. 

I am very curious to see a fully ported Husky 576AT in the very near future. Now that would be a worthy comparision IMO.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

porsche965 said:


> I fully agree with displacement being very difficult to overcome, especially running long bars. Maybe we all are thinking too much about comparing the 660 to the 441. This saw is only 70cc and should be compared to like kind to be fair. But most of us are always over reaching, me included, to the next Big Saw up in the rankings, to justify just how good the size saw is that we have. That's why having 20cc spacing is a good plan, Brad has always been a strong proponent of this idea and I fully agree. However CAD does get in the way!
> 
> Having said all that brings me back to this particular 441C fully ported saw. IMO, cc vs. cc. this is the very best in it's class all things considered equal at this time. Mileage, suspension, adaptability to elevation/fuel, filtration, and saw build quality.
> 
> ...


 
I think you may be on the money there John,yes it is a 70 cc saw that is ported with a very clever control system that produces the best from the saw,are we asking to much from it i dont know but time will tell.:smile2:


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## Officer's Match (Oct 19, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I think you may be on the money there John,yes it is a 70 cc saw that is ported with a very clever control system that produces the best from the saw,are we asking to much from it i dont know but time will tell.:smile2:


 
Agreed. Looking forward to more widespread AT/C-M application. Now that we (or rather _some_) have the MS241C, which I'm guessing should have the newer, cleaner carb design, I'd frankly love to see it applied to a 372 or an MS460/461. I know it's jumping brands, but can you imagine what an M-Tronic 7900 would likely do?


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

I would love to get hold of a stock 441C M-Tronic and see the differance,i was at my Stihl dealer today and he didnt even know when they were coming and have not had any training to do with them ?.
I dont know how well they will be taken to over here,most home owners use small saws and the firewood farmer types have 60 cc saws,and the real firewood cutters have 460s and 660s type saws.Then there is the CAD ones that have at least one of everything.
I havn't got a 362 so im doing ok.


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## CR500 (Oct 19, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> From what i have heard the new 461 will not be a M-Tronic.
> But i am really really hopping the 661 is.:msp_unsure:


 
That is what I am hearing here also, only time will tell it would be cool to see a 461 C though. I know that this 441 is ported and all but with this video of that saw I am having a hard time deciding if I want a 461 or 441 C and have it ported. this is going to drive me nuts lol


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## Jacob J. (Oct 19, 2011)

The whole "Sawzilla" thing isn't from a member here is it? I'd like to think the people here have more class than that.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

So what do you call your modded,built saws Jacab ?.


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## Jacob J. (Oct 19, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> So what do you call your modded,built saws Jacab ?.


 
I call them "modified saws." Although I did name one "Barbara" one time, as in "That's the Barbara saw." 

I have low-grade consumer saws that I loan out to friends and neighbors. Those are known as the "twat" saws.


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## AUSSIE1 (Oct 19, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> I call them "modified saws." Although I did name one "Barbara" one time, as in "That's the Barbara saw."
> 
> I have low-grade consumer saws that I loan out to friends and neighbors. Those are known as the "twat" saws.


 
Twat saws Jacob, lol! :msp_w00t: Do they bite? Are they a money pit?


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## FATGUY (Oct 19, 2011)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Twat saws Jacob, lol! :msp_w00t: Do they bite? *Are they a money pit*?


 
Al, really. Aren't they all : )


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## AUSSIE1 (Oct 19, 2011)

FATGUY said:


> Al, really. Aren't they all : )


 
Hi Nick. Some more than others I spose and it's a little easier when a ..................."saw", performs well! :msp_wub:


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

Got a vid of the 441C on its third tank starting to pay for its self seeing how its a work saw with some firewood,i have noticed this crackle rev limiter,fuel reducing what ever to control rpm appearing more and more as we go.Like i have said before its a bit strange not being in control of anything to do with the tune at all,but i will say this saw is not running lean, but a bit rich if anything which is a good thing.
Anyway this is the type of work this saws is going to be doing a lot of so it better get used to it,im liking this auto tune system more and more as im getting my head around,suppose in a way it is ideate proof.:biggrin:
It would be good to have something in the 70cc class to compare it to.:msp_unsure:
Comment away good or bad.

[video=youtube;nHcC5X0flGA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHcC5X0flGA[/video]


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## blsnelling (Oct 19, 2011)

Sounds to me like it's really picking up, compared to your last vid. It seems to be holding more Rs in the wood.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 19, 2011)

She started out looking strong, and seems to be waking up even more. I'd love to be at the controls myself to see, but it seems to like it being dogged in and pushed, yet also happy to rev away. Really seems to be an appealing saw.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 19, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> Sounds to me like it's really picking up, compared to your last vid. It seems to be holding more Rs in the wood.


 
OK, you beat me to it - I gotta' improve my typing speed. :msp_biggrin:

edit to add: I'm anxious to see the one you're porting Brad.


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## AUSSIE1 (Oct 19, 2011)

Having cut Stringybark plenty, I know it's traits. A saw can sound like it's a little low on torque in this stuff when in actual fact it's the fibrous bark slowing the saw. It clogs up the bar and chain etc. On occasions I've had to remove the bar and chain as it was the only way I could get the chain to move. A common habit of mine is to rev the saw out of the wood to clear things out.

It's running well there Andrew.

:msp_thumbup:


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## Rudolf73 (Oct 19, 2011)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Having cut Stringybark plenty, I know it's traits. A saw can sound like it's a little low on torque in this stuff when in actual fact it's the fibrous bark slowing the saw. It clogs up the bar and chain etc. On occasions I've had to remove the bar and chain as it was the only way I could get the chain to move. A common habit of mine is to rev the saw out of the wood to clear things out.
> 
> It's running well there Andrew.
> 
> :msp_thumbup:


 
Yeah I know what you mean Al, it binds the chain right up. Running the saw out of the wood helps though. That stringybark can be annoying with little saws to, I noticed it gets in everywhere under the clutch cover of my 200t and builds up.


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## john inglis (Oct 19, 2011)

*Stringybark*

I have been cutting a fair bit of dead stringy with the bark on , some of it the bark is over an inch and a half thick , have had to modify the bar and saw oil feed to keep the oil up (heavy duty oiler and stihl bar oil) to reduce bar and chain wear , the thick fiber drags all the oil off the chain . where the 460 will cut thru a 24-30 inch log i have to use the 660 if there is bark . the power loss because of the bark is quite significant .


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Having cut Stringybark plenty, I know it's traits. A saw can sound like it's a little low on torque in this stuff when in actual fact it's the fibrous bark slowing the saw. It clogs up the bar and chain etc. On occasions I've had to remove the bar and chain as it was the only way I could get the chain to move. A common habit of mine is to rev the saw out of the wood to clear things out.
> 
> It's running well there Andrew.
> 
> :msp_thumbup:


 
Its funny that how we have habbits and it all comes from the wood we cut,i never noticed that untill you said, a little rev after every cut to clear the crap and make sure we are not clogged up,nice one guys.
With this Stringybark when the top of the bar and chain enters the wood the bark grabs the chain and lifts the chain out of the bar this allows bark fibres to travel down the bar grooves and cloggs things up,the same happens when ya brake through at the bottom its a pain in the ass but so is most of owh hard woods over here a,good pick up blokes.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 19, 2011)

I have pulled apart the 441C today and had a bit of a look see (to hot today for cutting) trying to work out why this Works Connection tach wont work properly.
Pics coming latter.


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## deye223 (Oct 19, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> I call them "modified saws." Although I did name one "Barbara" one time, as in "That's the Barbara saw."
> 
> I have low-grade consumer saws that I loan out to friends and neighbors. Those are known as the "twat" saws.


 
if i borrow one will it take my house my car my boat my saws ??? naaaa keep em :msp_unsure: :msp_scared: :msp_biggrin:


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## deye223 (Oct 19, 2011)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Having cut Stringybark plenty, I know it's traits. A saw can sound like it's a little low on torque in this stuff when in actual fact it's the fibrous bark slowing the saw. It clogs up the bar and chain etc. On occasions I've had to remove the bar and chain as it was the only way I could get the chain to move. A common habit of mine is to rev the saw out of the wood to clear things out.
> 
> It's running well there Andrew.
> 
> :msp_thumbup:


 
i hear you on that one even worse with a 25" b&c


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

I was thinking about what Matt said there awhile ago about the muff surface being to hot on a 441 to pass some regs in South Ozz when he was doing the felling coarses.So i had a play and made some cuts and tryed to measure the temp as soon as i could and the highest i got was 160 deg C, idearly you need someone there to take the reading in the cut.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

Cant work this Works Connection tach problem out,it ok at idle but up in the rev range it reads double,i put my Tech Tach around the spark plug lead and the same thing happens ?.There is three setting on the tach but still no go.:censored:
Here is a pic the way i have it set up the same as i have dont with other saws,the 261 works all good.






The fly wheel has two points to transfer signal from for the coil and two places on the fly wheel.






I allso noticed under the cover where normally you adjust carb settings there is a plug in connection,this is for the Stihl Tec to plug in and check for folts ect,there is a fine plastic wire type peace will tails on the ends covering the plug in point,so you would have to cut this off before plugging in connection.


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## MCW (Oct 20, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I was thinking about what Matt said there awhile ago about the muff surface being to hot on a 441 to pass some regs in South Ozz when he was doing the felling coarses.So i had a play and made some cuts and tryed to measure the temp as soon as i could and the highest i got was 160 deg C, idearly you need someone there to take the reading in the cut.



I can't remember the exact test procedure mate but would suspect a modified muffler like yours would run cooler. The guy running this felling course also thought a gutted muffler would produce a lower reading as well.

At least the hour metre works old son


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## deye223 (Oct 20, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Can work this Works Connection tach problem out,it ok at idle but up in the rev range it reads double,i put my Tech Tach around the spark plug lead and the same thing happens ?.There is three setting on the tach but still no go.:censored:
> Here is a pic the way i have it set up the same as i have dont with other saws,the 261 works all good.
> 
> 
> ...


 
just a stab in the dark andrew have you tryed wraping the wire around the lead 8 or 9 times??
maybe 5 not enough for this system


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

The thing is i put my Tec Tach clamp around the spark plug wire and same sh_t no good as well.:msp_thumbdn:


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## deye223 (Oct 20, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> The thing is i put my Tec Tach clamp around the spark plug wire and same sh_t no good as well.:msp_thumbdn:


 only other thing i could think of was the EFI seting but you tryed that????


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## Officer's Match (Oct 20, 2011)

Wonder if the M-Tronic system reads rpms in half-rpm, ie 2 per revolution. That way it would be twice as fast at adjusting the mixture, actually measuring accel/decel within the revolution? Anybody tached a 576AT?


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

Good point, but there would not be twice as many signals going up the spark plug wire ?.


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## David (saltas) (Oct 20, 2011)

Andrew my educated *guess* (electritian,*instrument fitter* diploma electrical and electronic engineering)

Having an ellectronic controller for the fuel ( rich / lean ) and also likely ignition ( advance / retard) in such close proximity the coil and coil wire is a electrically nosey environment and one that would be prone to interference.

I strongly suspect the coil and coil wire have been shielded (Faraday cage).

The both tacho's maybe picking up some weak leakage at idle.

The tacho's maybe picking up a weak shielded signal and the grounding of the signal (also weak) and doubling the reading.

I think I remember reading some info about the wires to attach the stihl read out tool Anicol will remember better than me.

the two wires are likely to be 0~5VDC pulse train that has all of the information encoded in it.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 20, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Good point, but there would not be twice as many signals going up the spark plug wire ?.


 
[slaps forehead] Uh, yup. :redface: That is weird.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

So is there a way i can sheild the wire coming from the tach to stop the unwonted signals ?.


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## Slamm (Oct 20, 2011)

I just remembered the MSD ignition systems ......... Multi Spark Discharge. You had to get an adaptor or something:
(Some reading about the MSD system)
In the real world, this how an MSD Ignition works. At low rpm the MSD produces a series of sparks during each firing instead of one like a conventional ignition. At low engine speeds when the air/fuel molecules are not finely atomized, the multiple spark feature still ignites the mixture. But this isn't the only feature. The number of sparks produced by the MSD Is reduced as engine rpm increases simply because "time" becomes too short to repeat a spark. However, the spark series always lasts for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation no matter what the rpm and no matter whether it is a single spark or a series of four or five spark. This 20 degree duration spark sequence insures that the air/fuel mixture is ignited and completely burned. Also each spark the MSD produces is an extremely high current spark. Current is like the heat of the flamethrower. Current is what actually does the work or in this case ignites the fuel mixture. Together, the multiple sparks, the high current and the 20 degree duration, produce an ignition that is superior to any other ignition. More importantly though, the MSD Ignition ignites the fuel mixture in the cylinder instantly and insure complete combustion, no matter what the molecular composition is. The result is reduced variations in burn times and therefore more engine power, better throttle response, easier starting and better fuel economy.

So we need an adaptor to get it to work, because the ignition would throw not one but several "sparks" out per stroke.

This is likely the cause of the higher shown rpm's on the little tach.

I don't know the fix for this problem, but that is likely the source of it. Maybe a call to the little tach company could produce a solution?

We may have to find a way to get into wiring of the flywheel pickup side of the ignition module to get a true one "spark" per rpm reading at all rpms.

This is really neat stuff to find out about the M=Tronic's, because the MSD was a great invention for hotrodder's/racers and emission thinking souls, it can also burn crappier fuel without as many issues, at least in cars it can.

I hope this is the "problem", because if it is, it is really neat that Stihl has come up with this tech for the saws.

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks for that Sam,i dont realy need the tach as a rpm reading (cant change anything anyway) but it would be nice to see rpm in the cut,its mainly there for the hr reading so i hope that is correct.


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## MCW (Oct 20, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Wonder if the M-Tronic system reads rpms in half-rpm, ie 2 per revolution. That way it would be twice as fast at adjusting the mixture, actually measuring accel/decel within the revolution? Anybody tached a 576AT?





Stihlman441 said:


> Good point, but there would not be twice as many signals going up the spark plug wire ?.



Actually Officer's Match could be right as Slamm mentioned as well. The tach only has a 20,000rpm limit from memory so if the 441 hits higher revs there's a chance that it's stuffing up the tach somehow. Not sure but I'd say that's at least part of the issue.
Like I mentioned my Fast Tach struggled on the little 241C but did actually settle down eventually for a 13,600rpm peak no load.


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## David (saltas) (Oct 20, 2011)

Andrew 
I like your question because it was the complete opposite from what I expected
That worx connection tach works because it is unshielded

Unshielding the coil wire to get a strong signal that would swamp the reflection is what I expected to be asked.
The unshielding would be very bad for the "reliability in the quality" of the maths the electronics was doing to control the saw.

Might need to go old school and use an adjustable frequency strobe light (Stroboscope) on the flywheel


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## Terry Syd (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm leaning towards Saltas view of the need for shielding for the electronic module. If the spark plug wire is some how shielded then perhaps wraps around the spark plug ceramic may work.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

Terry Syd said:


> I'm leaning towards Saltas view of the need for shielding for the electronic module. If the spark plug wire is some how shielded then perhaps wraps around the spark plug ceramic may work.


 
I may just try that thanks.


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## David (saltas) (Oct 20, 2011)

Terry Syd said:


> I'm leaning towards Saltas view of the need for shielding for the electronic module. If the spark plug wire is some how shielded then perhaps wraps around the spark plug ceramic may work.


 
That is definitely worth a try and I'm interested if it works.

The ceramic is thicker and likely has a higher dielectric strength, the rubber boot goes sooooooooo far down the plug because this area is at the highest point of electrical stress i.e. at the termination of all high voltage cables.

View attachment 203580


View attachment 203581


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## albert (Oct 20, 2011)

The flywheel has two sets of magnets, Thats what is affecting the tach.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

Yes there is two small wires black and red coming from the lower magnet that go all the way up to the side of the carb on the right hand side and i assume they power the brains of the system.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 20, 2011)

albert said:


> The flywheel has two sets of magnets, Thats what is affecting the tach.


 


Stihlman441 said:


> Yes there is two small wires black and red coming from the lower magnet that go all the way up to the side of the carb on the right hand side and i assume they power the brains of the system.


 
So perhaps it's much less "sophisticated" than we're thinking. Separate circuits (one for spark/timing and one for carb/M-Tronic info purposes) and both triggering the tach.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks guys i will have a fiddle and see what happens.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 20, 2011)

I had a muck around with the tach wire put it around the ceramic part of the spark plug same sh-t.
even tryed insulating the wire with alloy foil no good,there must be a way ?.


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## porsche965 (Oct 20, 2011)

The mysteries of the M-Tronic. :bang:

There is one person I know that has the answer, but he will be away for awhile......


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## MCW (Oct 21, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I had a muck around with the tach wire put it around the ceramic part of the spark plug same sh-t.
> even tryed insulating the wire with alloy foil no good,there must be a way ?.


 
I've worked it out Andrew.
Just bust all but 4 fins off the flywheel and mount an optical model aeroplane tacho there and set it to a 4 blade propellor


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 21, 2011)

Matt i dont know how your misses puts up with you.

When in truble get the instructions out,there is a high and low sensitivity on the tach i will try changing that.


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## MCW (Oct 21, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Matt i dont know how your misses puts up with you.
> 
> When i truble get the instructions out,there is a high and low sensitivity on the tach i will try changing that.



I'm not game to pull that sh*t on the missus mate. I just turn tough on the intranets. At home I'm a demolished shell of a man...


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 21, 2011)

So true that,im hearin ya.:msp_rolleyes:


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## Slamm (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't think that trying to "pickup" the signal from the spark plug is going to net a positive on this one, as it seems the system is sending multiple sparks to the plug, so attempts at getting a better reading from the spark plug wire or the plug itself will only net in these high reading.

That is my take on it.


Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 21, 2011)

Im thinking you are correct there Sam,and at the coil end the same thing will be happening.:msp_sad:


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## porsche965 (Oct 21, 2011)

The wire with the port for stihls computer to plug into the mtronic system is the key.

My thought is to see what stihls reader looks like, experience its program etc.

A tach that had the ability to plug into this port just may receive the engine revolutions from there.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 21, 2011)

porsche965 said:


> The wire with the port for stihls computer to plug into the mtronic system is the key.
> 
> My thought is to see what stihls reader looks like, experience its program etc.
> 
> A tach that had the ability to plug into this port just may receive the engine revolutions from there.


 
Interesting John
What i did today was take the tach wire off the spark plug wire and started the saw and moved the tach wire around the saw,the only signal was around the spark plug wire,i did hold it up against those two wires black and red that go to that plug in port under where the carb adjustment once were,no signal there.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 23, 2011)

Another vid this time forth tank 25'' bar semi chisel work chain and a 7 pin sprocket in Cypress.

[video=youtube;N5QLq6rim6I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5QLq6rim6I[/video]


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 24, 2011)

Still havnt got this Works Connection tach thing worked out yet,tryed the low sensitivity mode on it not no differance.


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## deye223 (Oct 24, 2011)

what a buma


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## j.williams (Oct 24, 2011)

IMHO best stihl saw on the market for now. Would love to try the 241 CM also, i have a friend in germany that can get me one but with the exchange rate looking at over a $1000 to get the saw in my hands.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 24, 2011)

I think Matt (MCW) is getting one fron the UK check out his thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/182792-5.htm


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## Rudolf73 (Oct 24, 2011)

j.williams said:


> IMHO best stihl saw on the market for now. Would love to try the 241 CM also, i have a friend in germany that can get me one but with the exchange rate looking at over a $1000 to get the saw in my hands.


 
Have a look at Matt's (MCW) 241 thread, you may be able to get a 241 from the UK for around $650.


Edit: Stihlman beat me to it haha


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## Slamm (Oct 24, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Still havnt got this Works Connection tach thing worked out yet,tryed the low sensitivity mode on it not no differance.


 
Just for the record the spark system isn't like the MSD like I thought it was. Your mini tach isn't going to work on it period, unless they develop something different in the software. I'm going to call them today with some information to see if they can upgrade their system to work with the M-Tronics not sure how that will go or if they care, as the market is likely quite small comparitively.

Sam


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## MCW (Oct 24, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I think Matt (MCW) is getting one fron the UK check out his thread.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/182792-5.htm


 


Rudolf73 said:


> Have a look at Matt's (MCW) 241 thread, you may be able to get a 241 from the UK for around $650.
> 
> 
> Edit: Stihlman beat me to it haha



Yup. The saw should be arriving Thursday. When I'm 350km away at the national Almond Conference


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## David (saltas) (Oct 24, 2011)

mcw said:


> yup. The saw should be arriving thursday. When i'm 350km away at the national almond conference


 
nuts


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## MCW (Oct 24, 2011)

saltas said:


> nuts



Yup. The guys at work will probably even touch the package the bastards. Can't trust 'em.


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## Terry Syd (Oct 24, 2011)

Andrew, if you get fed up with trying to get the tach working and want to sell it, I'll buy it. I've been meaning to pick up one of those Work Connection tachs for a while.

Hang on, maybe the tach is broken! Have you tried it on another saw to see if you still get the same symptoms?


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 24, 2011)

A there Terry
Its not the thats the problem,i put the clamp of my Max Tach on the spark plug wire as well as the Works tach and its the same reading double.
Ya should of said about wonting a Works tach afew days ago i have some coming but there spoken for sorry.
The hr part works fine and thats the main reason i put it on anyway.


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## Terry Syd (Oct 24, 2011)

If someone balks on picking up the tach, just let me know.

I'm still playing around with the pop-off pressure on my carb. I've taken another two passive loops off the spring since the last time I thought I had it right. I'll probably end up going too far - then I'll know I've gone too far.

I figure the tach would help me to pick any subtle changes in the tuning, I'm not experienced enough that I can hear/feel the engine holding another hundred revs in the cut (that's 1% difference at 10,000 rpm). It won't be an M-Tronic, but it should be better than a stock carb.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 24, 2011)

Will do mate,i often get stuff from over there so i will keep you in mind.


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## deye223 (Oct 25, 2011)

MCW said:


> Yup. The saw should be arriving Thursday. When I'm 350km away at the national Almond Conference


 
a room full of Nutty Professors i want pictures :hmm3grin2orange: :help:


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 26, 2011)

Mmm i like the new advatar,better than a boat but probably the same high maintenance but.


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## blsnelling (Oct 26, 2011)

I've for mine partially torn down on the bench now.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 26, 2011)

Interesting times,the hard part with the porting,muff modd ect is working out the boundary's of the control system rpm,timing advance or retard,mixture settings and so on but stay inside tolerances that its set to,its all unknown and i dint thing rpm increase is the answer :msp_unsure:.
There is probably a plug in way to tweak these and more settings but getting past EPA may be difficult.


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## Terry Syd (Oct 26, 2011)

There's probably a fair bit of adjustment in the device. The density altitude of a dry winter's day at sea level is a lot different than a hot humid day up in the hills. There is around 3% difference for every 1,000 ft of altitude, thus the difference between sea level and 5,000 ft is 15%, throw in some temperature, humidity and fuel differences and the M-Tronic would have to have a fairly broad range of adjustment in order to cope with the changes.

Here's something to consider when porting. If the stock strato timing is longer than the intake timing and you match the timing when porting, the intake will now flow more fuel/air mixture to the cylinder. In other words, the carb mixture may end up becoming LEANER to compensate.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 26, 2011)

I took the plug out and here ya go.
Interesting one side of the ceramic is differant than the other ?.


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## Terry Syd (Oct 26, 2011)

My strato has the same tendency to darken one side of the insulator more than the other. I expect it is because of the rich fuel mixture that follows the air of the strato system into the cylinder.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 26, 2011)

Some saws have this tendency, the 361's do this as well.


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## David (saltas) (Oct 28, 2011)

Plug out my MS261 does not have 1/2 and 1/2 colouring


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 30, 2011)

Just out of interest today i made a vid stock 441 V ported 441CRM-Tronic V stock 460 all with a 20'' bar and Carlton chisel chain and 8 pin sprockets.Well i have to say i was disappointed with the stock 441,played with the tune ended up at 13500 w/o and even checked the comp which was 155 psi,460 is at 13400 w/o and 170 psi.

[video=youtube;epG-kuAGRyI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epG-kuAGRyI[/video]


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## Slamm (Oct 30, 2011)

I tried to time them as best as I could. Seemed like the 441 Stock was 13 seconds, 441 Sawzilla was 8-8.5 seconds and the 460 OZZIE (Dual Port) was 10-11.

8 seconds (Sawzilla) / 13 seconds (Stock441)=.6153 ............. 1-.6153= 38.46% (Improvement or faster) I thought everyone said that wasn't possible?? LOL. That saw doesn't even have a popup, just missing a gasket. What was its compression (Sawzilla)? With only a few tanks through it, it should be getting faster. It will be possible to get it over 40% improvement.

Looks good. Thanks,

Sam


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## porsche965 (Oct 30, 2011)

Good video. Add in efficiency of the 441C and it just makes for a great saw. I wonder just how far behind a stock 441C would be?


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## deye223 (Oct 30, 2011)

porsche965 said:


> Good video. Add in efficiency of the 441C and it just makes for a great saw. I wonder just how far behind a stock 441C would be?


 
unless i'm mistaken that was the 1st saw .


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## mdavlee (Oct 30, 2011)

Wow that cm is really cutting. I wouldn't have thought it would be that much stronger.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 30, 2011)

deye223 said:


> unless i'm mistaken that was the 1st saw .


 
First saw isn't M-Tronic.


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## Officer's Match (Oct 30, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> Wow that cm is really cutting. I wouldn't have thought it would be that much stronger.


 
Surely is! But its also the only ported saw in that bunch. The super cool thing to me is the M-Tronic seems to really work well ported, the throttle response appears unlike any strato I've seen.


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## deye223 (Oct 30, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> First saw isn't M-Tronic.


 
my reply was to post 119 if you look at the vid the 1st saw is a stock 441


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## porsche965 (Oct 30, 2011)

deye223 said:


> unless i'm mistaken that was the 1st saw .



I think the first 441 was a standard, the second is the M-Tronic version. I meant to say a stock M-tronic vs. the fully ported M-tronic.


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## deye223 (Oct 30, 2011)

porsche965 said:


> I think the first 441 was a standard, the second is the M-Tronic version. I meant to say a stock M-tronic vs. the fully ported M-tronic.


 
no probs. yes that would be a good comp


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## blsnelling (Oct 30, 2011)

I think the M-Tronic is quite a bit stronger than the standard version.


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## Slamm (Oct 30, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> I think the M-Tronic is quite a bit stronger than the standard version.


 
Yes, I second that finding, wholeheartedly. It is quite the saw. I cut firewood with it this morning, and this afternoon I'm going to go fell trees with it. I started it in exactly 2 pulls this morning, last time I ran it was yesterday evening. Whatever they do to the timing makes it very easy to start, its almost like you are pulling the rope out just to say you did it.

Here is a video of me starting it cold this morning.





Sam


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## MacLaren (Oct 30, 2011)

Looks like a 29% gain over stock. Thats excellent.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 30, 2011)

Slamm said:


> I tried to time them as best as I could. Seemed like the 441 Stock was 13 seconds, 441 Sawzilla was 8-8.5 seconds and the 460 OZZIE (Dual Port) was 10-11.
> 
> 8 seconds (Sawzilla) / 13 seconds (Stock441)=.6153 ............. 1-.6153= 38.46% (Improvement or faster) I thought everyone said that wasn't possible?? LOL. That saw doesn't even have a popup, just missing a gasket. What was its compression (Sawzilla)? With only a few tanks through it, it should be getting faster. It will be possible to get it over 40% improvement.
> 
> ...


 
The Sawzilla 441C on its third tank comp was 150 psi cold.


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## porsche965 (Oct 30, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> The Sawzilla 441C on its third tank comp was 150 psi cold.



Built for torque, pure and simple.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 30, 2011)

To add to Sams starting vid the starting system is great one or two pulls from cold and one when worm.
With the normal saws eg my 460 when cold control lever all the way down to choke,pull 2 or 4 time until pop,lever up one position,push in decomp,pull 2 or 3 times and then start blip throttle.Leave it sit 10 to 20 mins go to start it,try on lever position pull 3 or 4 times no good,go to choke position and so on,no wonder my arms are so long.

441C M-tronic from cold 1 or 2 pulls and go,worm 1 pull and go.

I dint know if people realize this but from cold and 441C starts you dint have to flick control lever up just blip throttle and control lever goes up to run.:msp_smile:


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## MacLaren (Oct 30, 2011)

I can understand that. The 555 I have is autotune and it starts like that. Its really,really nice.


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 30, 2011)

From a WORK saw point of view these ported M-Tronic or even a stock one have a lot going for them compared to the old school saws.
Heaps of HP
Heaps of torque
Standard RPM
Standard compression (no extra stress on bottom ends)
Easy starting
Good fuel mileage
No tune
Smooth ride
Better throttle response
Better filter system
The Wrap model (i think $40 more) has
Twin bumper spikes
Roller chain catcher
High out put oiler
Stiffer AV springs

How can ya go wrong even a stock one with a muff modd to easy.
Its heaver big deal in ported form who cares its like using a stock 80 or 90 cc saw anyway and with all the above advantages im sold.

Bring on the 661 M-Tronics.


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## MacLaren (Oct 30, 2011)

IMO, you really hit the jackpot with this saw. Congrats!


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 30, 2011)

So far so good,im weighting on a 28'' ES Light bar to come from the US so i can get it in some bigger wood and compare to 460 and even 660s.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Rudolf73 (Oct 30, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> So far so good,im weighting on a 28'' ES Light bar to come from the US so i can get it in some bigger wood and compare to 460 and even 660s.:hmm3grin2orange:


 
Sweet! :smile2:


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## MacLaren (Oct 30, 2011)

Sounds good. It'll sure be fun finding out.


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## dave k (Oct 30, 2011)

You will be made up with that 28" ES Light thats what I run on my Snellerized 441 and Like you had to get it from the States, thanks Wyk, the only thing stopping me getting a couple more is going to Tsu light's when I get my new Simonized 372.


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## MacLaren (Oct 30, 2011)

dave k said:


> You will be made up with that 28" ES Light thats what I run on my Snellerized 441 and Like you had to get it from the States, thanks Wyk, the only thing stopping me getting a couple more is going to Tsu light's when I get my new Simonized 372.


 
The Tsumura 30" Light I have on my 660 is a dream....... You will love it.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 30, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I dint know if people realize this but from cold and 441C starts you dint have to flick control lever up just blip throttle and control lever goes up to run.:msp_smile:


 
Correct, and I don't think you can flood them, that's a big plus for non AS members.


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## Slamm (Oct 30, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> From a WORK saw point of view these ported M-Tronic or even a stock one have a lot going for them compared to the old school saws.
> Heaps of HP
> Heaps of torque
> Standard RPM
> ...


 
Quit fooling yourself, they won't believe you, LOL.

I have 14 videos trying to upload. I cut 20ish trees today with the Mtronics 441, and I photo'd or video'd everyone. It was a very nice saw. I'm not getting the fuel efficiency with the 441 Mtronics, that I am with my regular Sawzilla 441 in this timber. I put 6 tanks through it between firewood and felling trees this evening for a few hours. If all goes good, I'll have a morning to night day of felling with it tomorrow and really get some gas through it.

I didn't know about the blipping the throttle to get the lever to pop up, I was just flipping the lever, which after all doesn't put those nasty undo RPM's on it, LOL, JOKE.

Later,

Sam


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## Terry Syd (Oct 31, 2011)

Sam, that's interesting that the M-tronic carb isn't getting the fuel economy as a stock carb. It may also be indicative of how a stock carb goes lean as the revs drop. The M-tronic keeps the fuel ratio correct and helps retain the power even as the engine drops further away from the optimum design RPM. 

The stock carb getting better fuel economy seems to be consistent with stock carbs having too high of pop-off pressure. The higher pop-off pressure limits the usuable range of the carb and forces the factory/operator to tune the carb for the optimum design rpm. The leaning condition may help emissions as it moves away from the design RPM, but the usable power range of the engine is sacrificed.

When I first started reading on this forum, I was surprised at the tuning process of getting the engine to 4-stroke out of the cut, and then clean up in the cut. I have never tuned any other engine (motorcycle, car, etc) in such a manner. I couldn't imagine tuning a motorcycle so that it started blubbering once it got past peak horsepower. It's not as if the diaphragm carb can't be tuned for a broader range, the kart racers have shown that they can tune these carbs for karts with only one gear - that is, they use a far broader use of the powerband than a saw does.

I'm hoping the new interest in electronic carburetors (and what they can do) will stimulate some interest in proper fuel metering and lead to further experimentation with the old style of carbs.


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## Slamm (Oct 31, 2011)

Terry,

I'll put a lot of gas through this saw in the next few days this week and see how it, goes, but thats just what I found in a couple of hours, this evening, in similar timber, maybe it was a little bigger on average, but fuel mileage was down, cut times were very good, and the low end grunt and just ease and please to use were above par of any saw I've run. I was playing tonight, tomorrow, I'm going to put the camera down and really shoot for some hourly tree averages and see what it and I can do.

I can and will pull out the modded 660 and double check my fuel mileage, but I'll be eating some crow if it can't at least beat the 660 in fuel mileage, I don't think its that bad, but it sure wasn't like one of my regular carbed (modded) 441's, that I do know with all confidence. That said, all of my other 441's got horrible mileage and power for the first 15-20 tanks, so I just want to get gas through this one and then start whining about it and seeing whats wrong or different, LOL.

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 31, 2011)

Sam
Im a little surprised with the fuel mileage thing,i thought it would be the other way around see how it is after some more fuel through it and it brakes in some more.
With that dual port muff from your older 441 would you say that the combined outlet size is twice that of the stock 441C ?.


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## MCW (Oct 31, 2011)

Unfortunately all the whizz bang gizmos still won't get the 441's balancing like a Husky 
By the way my 241C M-Tronic arrived today. I'm sold on this electronic wizardy. First pull starts when cold so far.


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## Rudolf73 (Oct 31, 2011)

MCW said:


> [snip]
> By the way my 241C M-Tronic arrived today. I'm sold on this electronic wizardy. First pull starts when cold so far.


 
Cool beans


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## MCW (Oct 31, 2011)

Rudolf73 said:


> Cool beans



No...


...cool bananas


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## blsnelling (Oct 31, 2011)

Stihlman, please don't take this wrong, but has anyone else noticed how much stronger Porsches 441 is, yet they're from the same builder. Porsches looks to holds a lot more RMPs in the wood. There's something significantly different between those two saws.


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## MCW (Oct 31, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Terry,
> 
> I'll put a lot of gas through this saw in the next few days this week and see how it, goes, but thats just what I found in a couple of hours, this evening, in similar timber, maybe it was a little bigger on average, but fuel mileage was down, cut times were very good, and the low end grunt and just ease and please to use were above par of any saw I've run. I was playing tonight, tomorrow, I'm going to put the camera down and really shoot for some hourly tree averages and see what it and I can do.
> 
> ...



Hi Sam.
If that 441 doesn't beat a 660 in fuel economy then we have a problem. The 660's, without a doubt, have some of the worst fuel economy I have ever seen, stock *OR *modified...
When I recently did part 2 of a forestry course two brand new 660's were being run by the other two trainees. My modded 7900 and 390XP absolutely pumped those saws in every performance aspect but when both 660's were due to be filled I still had 1/2 a tank left in either the Dolmar or Husky. Even the instructor commented on it as he expected me to be filling up earlier than the 660's. So did I to be honest


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## MCW (Oct 31, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> Stihlman, please don't take this wrong, but has anyone else noticed how much stronger Porsches 441 is, yet they're from the same builder. Porsches looks to holds a lot more RMPs in the wood. There's something significantly torrent between those two saws.



It could simply be the Pine versus Stringybark aspect Brad?  I could be wrong but I think the builder in question claimed that he'd made a few gains on Andrew's saw compared to John's.


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## deye223 (Oct 31, 2011)

congrats on the ms241 MCW


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## blsnelling (Oct 31, 2011)

Hmmm, sure doesn't appear that way. I've watched all the vids and Johns always looks and sounds way stronger. Again, these comments are not meant to knock anyones saw our anyones work. I would just like to know what's different.


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## Slamm (Oct 31, 2011)

MCW said:


> Hi Sam.
> If that 441 doesn't beat a 660 in fuel economy then we have a problem. The 660's, without a doubt, have some of the worst fuel economy I have ever seen, stock *OR *modified...
> When I recently did part 2 of a forestry course two brand new 660's were being run by the other two trainees. My modded 7900 and 390XP absolutely pumped those saws in every performance aspect but when both 660's were due to be filled I still had 1/2 a tank left in either the Dolmar or Husky. Even the instructor commented on it as he expected me to be filling up earlier than the 660's. So did I to be honest


 
Matt, I meant that figuretively about the 660. I'm headed out to cut today and have a pretty good idea of proper fuel economy for this size timber so I'm going to keep my eye on it. I agree, that we will have a problem if it truly is that bad. Like I said before every other 441, I've had, was not the saw it should be for about 15-20 tanks.

We'll see,

Sam


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## Slamm (Oct 31, 2011)

MCW said:


> It could simply be the Pine versus Stringybark aspect Brad?  I could be wrong but I think the builder in question claimed that he'd made a few gains on Andrew's saw compared to John's.


 
He did make two slight changes to Andrew's saw over John's saw, they were good common sense changes. It will be awhile before a third or more are built for comparison. The difference in the videos has been noticed by John and I, obviously Brad sees it. John UPS'd me pieces of that oak he is cutting with the 28" bar, when it is bounce off the rev limiter and it is truly rock hard, from all appearances I don't think a well modded 90cc saw could produce a video like that one, if you knew how hard that wood truly is and then watch the video.

John and I discussed some possibilities to the reasons for this and I will hopefully get a feel for it this week.

Sam


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## MacLaren (Oct 31, 2011)

Honestly Sam, Ive watched the vids and what not. I dont think theres a snowballs chance in it beating one of Terry's ported XPW's. From what Ive saw, sawzilla is getting about 29% gain. Thats excellent. But thats no where near what Terry's ported XPW's will run. I didnt wanna say anything, but when ya mentioned a well ported 90cc saw not keeping up, well........I wanna see any ported 441R go up against a good ported XPW,2171,460,etc.....THEN we shall what kind of saw sawzilla can make IMHO.......and not to mention Sam, but as far as well ported 90cc saws I have a WELL ported 660 that beat a WELL ported 2171 by 28% thru rock hard oak. You can see the vids for yourself. I believe ya when ya say they are excellent runners, but theres a limit to everything.


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## blsnelling (Oct 31, 2011)

I believe Johns saw would be right there with Terrys XPW. I also say that that a really strong 70cc saw should not be out cut by a 660 like that. In that size wood the 70cc saw has plenty of HP and more RPMs then the 660. Just my honest opinion there.


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## MacLaren (Oct 31, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> I believe Johns saw would be right there with Terrys XPW. I also say that that a really strong 70cc saw should not be out cut by a 660 like that. In that size wood the 70cc saw has plenty of HP and more RPMs then the 660. Just my honest opinion there.


 
I understand Brad, but this isnt your average ported 660. I mean no offense by that either. I think we can agree to disagree.


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## blsnelling (Oct 31, 2011)

My comments would apply to any woods ported 90cc class saw. JMHO. Sounds like more good GTG fun


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## porsche965 (Oct 31, 2011)

MCW said:


> It could simply be the Pine versus Stringybark aspect Brad?  I could be wrong but I think the builder in question claimed that he'd made a few gains on Andrew's saw compared to John's.



For what it's worth the wood in both videos is what I call Red Oak, but whatever the variety it is oak. Hope this helps the thoughts on this topic. :msp_smile:


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 31, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> Stihlman, please don't take this wrong, but has anyone else noticed how much stronger Porsches 441 is, yet they're from the same builder. Porsches looks to holds a lot more RMPs in the wood. There's something significantly different between those two saws.


 
All comments good and bad i am pretty hard to afend so go for your life.

From what i understand my Sawzilla is a little different that Johns,with internal parts machined differently and apparently slightly stronger. 
This Sawzilla was never supposed to be a cooky cutting race saw in anyway,i asked for a work saw and thats what i got,and in the vids i am trying to represent that environment.
In the vids i have been using a full chisel .035'' raker work chain which i use on green softer woods eg Sugargum,Stringybark and in the last vid the wood was pine one of the softest woods.
In the end the Sawzilla will be set up with one of those 28'' Light bars and be my felling saw using all the good things about it and take advantage of them.
As you have experienced those 441Cs require a light torch and controlled push rate as i would call it to get the rpm and its control system working for you.
Cheers got some trees to cut.
Andrew


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 1, 2011)

I have been out today cutting Swompgum which i think is the best firewood around my area and its hard and very very hard when dry.I put a 25'' bar and a Stihl RSC chain and a 7 pin sprocket on the 441CRM-Tronic and ended putting 4 tanks or fuel thought it,its getting better all the time.
These trees were along a stone wall fence so the aim was not to damage it at all (built buy prisoners of war and convicts in the old days) under Australian trust so if ya f_ck ya have to fix it by law.We strapped a steel cage on the tracter forks and i got in it with the 261 and we cut the over hanging branches off that were hanging over the stone wall.
Vid coming.


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## Slamm (Nov 1, 2011)

Genius use of an old tote cage. I will have to use that idea for an attachment I made for my skid loader where I welded a 2 stage forklift mast to a skid loader mounting plate for high reach. I have been wondering about making a caged platform for it, and I have several old totes that would work great. Thanks for that photo.

How many tanks do you have through your saw now. I hit 10 yesterday. I really like mine, even not modded, and I can't say that about any other saw. It sure is a pleasant saw to operate, the cold 1-2 pulls (total) when completely cold starting puts a grin on my face in the morning, LOL. I tried that pulling the trigger to pop it off of choke setting and sure enough, it flips the lever up.

I hope all saws act like this one in the future. If the 661 acts like this with obviously more power and doesn't get any heavier, boy will they have a winner on their hands. I haven't decided if I'm going to cut or skid today, I want to run the saw more, but I'm not sure I can get the trees skid in and bucked up before it rains.

Have fun down there,

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 1, 2011)

The farmer wonts all there Swomp gums cut down,in this plantation around 60 trees because when they damage the stone wall he has to fix them under the Australian Heritage trust rules.
The 441C got a good run,4 tanks of fuel(i think its on the 12 th all up) and it is realy freed up know and seams to rev more,this is with a 25'' RSC chain and 7 pin.

[video=youtube;nHfKaj2CC5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHfKaj2CC5Y[/video]


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 1, 2011)

Andrew it looks quite strong and responsive, love the way it sounds as well.


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## AUSSIE1 (Nov 1, 2011)

Andrew it sounds like it's doing it's thing to me, especially .035 on the rakers in that wood. I'd probably go less on the rakers though.


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## Meadow Beaver (Nov 1, 2011)

I'm actually fairly impressed the way this saw turned out. Might be an ms441 cm or 576 autotune on my list next.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 1, 2011)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Andrew it sounds like it's doing it's thing to me, especially .035 on the rakers in that wood. I'd probably go less on the rakers though.


 
Ya mate you are right about the raker depth,in the last vid that chain and bar normally lives on the Snellerized 660,it was a bit grabby and had to be gentle with the pushing,but thats a nother reason why i put that chain and bar on there to see if it could pull it ok and it does the job.


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## CR500 (Nov 1, 2011)

I can not wait to see what this saw can do with a 28'' against the 660 & 460. Andrew I am wondering how u think that saw would pull a 32'' I mean I am thinking about getting this saw over a 461/ 460 if it can pull a 32'' close or the same as a 460/461. I mean I have ran a 441 before with a 20 & 25 and it did not impress me like a 440 or 044 did. After seeing and hearing this saw perform I am almost sold.


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## blsnelling (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh yeah. Each vid you post, the saw sounds stronger. It's definately sounding angry now! Nice.


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## AUSSIE1 (Nov 2, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya mate you are right about the raker depth,in the last vid that chain and bar normally lives on the Snellerized 660,it was a bit grabby and had to be gentle with the pushing,but thats a nother reason why i put that chain and bar on there to see if it could pull it ok and it does the gob.


 
It didn't stall so it's doing a champion job! :msp_thumbup:


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

CR500 said:


> I can not wait to see what this saw can do with a 28'' against the 660 & 460. Andrew I am wondering how u think that saw would pull a 32'' I mean I am thinking about getting this saw over a 461/ 460 if it can pull a 32'' close or the same as a 460/461. I mean I have ran a 441 before with a 20 & 25 and it did not impress me like a 440 or 044 did. After seeing and hearing this saw perform I am almost sold.


 
Ya i cant wait as well the 28'' is still on way from US,its going to be interesting.
As far as pulling a 32'' i dont know about that dont forget this saw is ported and about 30 % better than a stocky,depends on the wood you are going to cut i suppose.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

Been out and picked up two Sugargum logs that i am going to mill up into rails,they were a bit heavey than i expected lucky the air bags under the ute but as you can see even then enough is enough.Lucky its a one tone ute :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

If ya interested in fuel use going by the Works Connection tachs

441CRM-Tronic ported 10 tanks for 3.6 hrs 725 mil / tank

660 BB kit 7 tanks for 3.1 hrs 825 mil / tank


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## MCW (Nov 2, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya i cant wait as well the 28'' is still on way trom US,its going to be interesting.
> As far as pulling a 32'' i dont know about that dont forget this saw is ported and about 30 % better than a stocky,*depends on the wood you are going to cut i suppose.*



Yeah you're right Andrew with the type of wood. When I see guys in the states debating on whether they should run an 8 pin with a 32" bar and full chisel I just want to lick the computer screen. An 8 pin on a 32" bar in our average wood is the realms of a 3120/880 or an off it's face 660 (like the one I had).
In softwood it is probably an easy decision but in our hardwoods I'd think your 441 will pull a 28" bar easily considering the torque of the stratos. I'd think a 7 pin rim is the go there the way these M-Tronics like to rev.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> Andrew it looks quite strong and responsive, love the way it sounds as well.


 
I tell you what you cant use this saw with out ear muffs,i love the way it pops,crackles and carrys on,im having trouble picking up any other saw at the moment.


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## MCW (Nov 2, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I tell you what you cant use this saw with out ear muffs,i love the way it pops,crackles and carrys on,im having trouble picking up any other saw at the moment.


 

You don't say?


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

What


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## MCW (Nov 2, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> What



Well put it this way, I don't think you've used another saw since it arrived 
I gathered you'd had trouble picking up another saw


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

Bring on the 661C M-Tronic.


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## MCW (Nov 2, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Bring on the 661C M-Tronic.



Bring on the 390XP-AT 

Have you even looked at another saw since this 441 arrived or are they all feeling slightly unloved? There will be a revolt in your shed soon...
In fact my little 241C is likely to cause the same problem with my saw fleet...


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 2, 2011)

I put 2 tanks through the 261 yesterday,as long as the number ends in 1.:msp_wink:


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## deye223 (Nov 2, 2011)

MCW said:


> Bring on the 390XP-AT
> 
> Have you even looked at another saw since this 441 arrived or are they all feeling slightly unloved? There will be a revolt in your shed soon...
> In fact my little 241C is likely to cause the same problem with my saw fleet...


 
yea i'll take the rebels


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 8, 2011)

Go my Stihl 28'' ES Light bar today and put it on the scales,interesting

Stihl ES Light 28'' 1.240 kg

GB Titanium 20'' 1.272 kg


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## Slamm (Nov 8, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> Go my Stihl 28'' ES Light bar today and put it on the scales,interesting
> 
> Stihl ES Light 28'' 1.240 kg
> 
> GB Titanium 20'' 1.272 kg




See thats what I said, its lighter than a 20" regular bar (I wonder if a Stihl ES is heavier than a GB TI?). I got my 28" Lite bar 441 stuck in a tree and had a 441/20" nearby to cut it out. I cut the 28" out, and I had 5 trees on the ground that needed to be topped, so I set the 28"Lite bar'd saw to the side, and logically went to top with the "lighter" 20"/441, first cut was about shoulder/head high and I thought to myself this thing sucks, for the weight, I didn't have the reach. So I went back and fire'd up the 28" Lite bar'd 441. I now own 6 of those 28" Lite bars, and the dealer has 10 more coming for stock, LOL. I love them.

Like I have said before if you are in a setting where a 28" bar can make you money, you will make more with a Stihl Lite Bar they are sooooooooooooooooooooooo nice, LOL. I have yet to see another Lightweight bar that compares to the genius way that Stihl made theirs. From every angle in engineering the Stihl bar is smarter, instead of using epoxies or plastic or aluminum as a replacement for the for steel, they simply used air, yet I promise the Stihl bar is much, much stronger or more resistent to bending than any other design, simply due to there is an all steel construction and full steel construction without weakening slots or pockets of aluminum (which is a horrible choice of metal for a saw bar) or plastic.

Sam


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## Saw Dr. (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm alot late to the party here, and too lazy to read the whole thread. Anyone know if Stihl is offering an upgrade kit for the standard carb 441 to convert to electronic? I have a "keeper" 441 (siezed) under my bench that has been gathering dust for a while.


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## Slamm (Nov 8, 2011)

Saw Dr. said:


> I'm alot late to the party here, and too lazy to read the whole thread. Anyone know if Stihl is offering an upgrade kit for the standard carb 441 to convert to electronic? I have a "keeper" 441 (siezed) under my bench that has been gathering dust for a while.



You can get everything needed, but the flywheel at this time. CARB, CARB Controller and throttle assembly, but you need the flywheel.

The carb, controller and throttle assembly are really cheap, don't know about the flywheel yet.

I should all me under $300 when its said and done with the flywheel.


Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 8, 2011)

This is the filter on the 441 C on the 12th tank of fuel after cutting all sorts of wood and i have not cleaned it from new,the outer pre filter helps a bit,try doing that with ya old school saws.:msp_smile:


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## Slamm (Nov 8, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> This is the filter on the 441 C on the 12th tank of fuel after cutting all sorts of wood and i have not cleaned it from new,the outer pre filter helps a bit,try doing that with ya old school saws.:msp_smile:



Same here, I pulled my cover at 10ish tanks, looked at the filter and put it back on. There was just a little packed on the bottom of the HD2 and that is it.

Not life changing, but it is kinda neat and handy, LOL.

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 9, 2011)

Slamm said:


> See thats what I said, its lighter than a 20" regular bar (I wonder if a Stihl ES is heavier than a GB TI?). I got my 28" Lite bar 441 stuck in a tree and had a 441/20" nearby to cut it out. I cut the 28" out, and I had 5 trees on the ground that needed to be topped, so I set the 28"Lite bar'd saw to the side, and logically went to top with the "lighter" 20"/441, first cut was about shoulder/head high and I thought to myself this thing sucks, for the weight, I didn't have the reach. So I went back and fire'd up the 28" Lite bar'd 441. I now own 6 of those 28" Lite bars, and the dealer has 10 more coming for stock, LOL. I love them.
> 
> Like I have said before if you are in a setting where a 28" bar can make you money, you will make more with a Stihl Lite Bar they are sooooooooooooooooooooooo nice, LOL. I have yet to see another Lightweight bar that compares to the genius way that Stihl made theirs. From every angle in engineering the Stihl bar is smarter, instead of using epoxies or plastic or aluminum as a replacement for the for steel, they simply used air, yet I promise the Stihl bar is much, much stronger or more resistent to bending than any other design, simply due to there is an all steel construction and full steel construction without weakening slots or pockets of aluminum (which is a horrible choice of metal for a saw bar) or plastic.
> 
> Sam



I remember that pis of yours when ya had the bars stuck in the back of the quad bike for re fueling with all the weight of the saw hanging on it.


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## MCW (Nov 9, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> This is the filter on the 441 C on the 12th tank of fuel after cutting all sorts of wood and i have not cleaned it from new,the outer pre filter helps a bit,try doing that with ya old school saws.:msp_smile:



Many of the old school saws don't have half the filter blocking issues of the newer filter systems Andrew. They just let the dust sail straight through


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 9, 2011)

MCW said:


> Many of the old school saws don't have half the filter blocking issues of the newer filter systems Andrew. They just let the dust sail straight through



Cant argue with that comment mate.


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> I remember that pis of yours when ya had the bars stuck in the back of the quad bike for re fueling with all the weight of the saw hanging on it.



LOL, thats how I refuel them, if when I'm running two saws at a time. I cut with one until empty and then cut with another until empty and then stop and fill them both, I just always stuck the bars in the rack and filled them up. Provides good access and doesn't spill bar oil or gas on my ATV. Here is the photo below, I usually have them both stuck in the side of the ATV rack. 





You can't do that with any other Lightweight bar multiple times each day and have it return to center, and if you can they aren't as light as the Stihl Lite bar. I wish they made them in 20" and 24", I would think people would buy them. Anyone that cries about a few ounce difference on this saw or that saw, should just jump all over Lite bars and put their money where their mouth is, because bar weight is much more fatiguing than weight between the handles of the saw.

Sam


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## MCW (Nov 9, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Anyone that cries about a few ounce difference on this saw or that saw, should just jump all over Lite bars and put their money where their mouth is, because bar weight is much more fatiguing than weight between the handles of the saw.
> 
> Sam



I agree 100% Sam. In fact 150%.
Also as you're probably aware some of the so called "lightweight" bars aren't actually light!
These Stihl lightweight bars definately look the goods compared to other lightweights - are Husky mounts available?


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

MCW said:


> I agree 100% Sam. In fact 150%.
> Also as you're probably aware some of the so called "lightweight" bars aren't actually light!
> These Stihl lightweight bars definately look the goods compared to other lightweights - are Husky mounts available?



I think Stihl would sell quite a few of their Lite bars if they would "lower" themselves to making them with a Husky mount, because there are a lot of pro cutters that use the Huskies, and I don't see any competition in the Lite bar ranks after seeing and using this bar, their is no comparison, in either strength or weight, as can be easily seen through the way its made, its genius.

They are using a air pockets instead of slots or pockets filled with aluminum or epoxy, and they have solid steel outsides for the strength, they definiately went the path least traveled, while everyone else was slotting bars and putting aluminum/epoxy fillers in them.

Sam


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## deye223 (Nov 9, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Anyone that cries about a few ounce difference on this saw or that saw, should just jump all over Lite bars and put their money where their mouth is, because bar weight is much more fatiguing than weight between the handles of the saw.
> 
> Sam



this one is for saw troll haha:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

deye223 said:


> this one is for saw troll haha:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



I had the very man in mind when I posted that, LOL. The problem is Lite bars only come in 28" and bigger, which is about double the length he likes to use, LOL.

Joking,

Sam


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## MCW (Nov 9, 2011)

Slamm said:


> I think Stihl would sell quite a few of their Lite bars if they would "lower" themselves to making them with a Husky mount, because there are a lot of pro cutters that use the Huskies,
> 
> Sam



I agree but Stihl aren't known for any cross species integration or compatibility. They engineer things so that other brands *CAN'T* use Stihl gear


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## deye223 (Nov 9, 2011)

i like the balance of a 20" on me 460 and i would like a ES lite 25" and a 18" ES lite on my 260 but we can't allways get what we wont:bang:


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

MCW said:


> I agree but Stihl aren't known for any cross species integration or compatibility. They engineer things so that other brands *CAN'T* use Stihl gear



Well that settles it then, you will have to buy 70 and 90cc Stihls to use the Lite Bars, LOL.

They make those adaptors, but I'm not sure if they are a pain to use or not, I guess, onces its on, its on. So that adaptor can't be that big of a deal.

I used a regular ES for about a day, after using the Lite bars for several days, and well, I didn't like that experience very much, LOL. I called the dealer and asked him to keep them in stock, as if he sells one, he will sell the same person more, because they are addicting. 

Sam


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

deye223 said:


> i like the balance of a 20" on me 460 and i would like a ES lite 25" and a 18" ES lite on my 260 but we can't allways get what we wont:bang:



Well I hope they get the hint and start making shorter, LITE bars. Again, they are a novelty item if you are just cutting for fun, but if there is some way that bar can make you more money, they will pay for themselves in short order.

I think they knew what they were doing by selecting the length of 28" and bigger as that is where the bar weight starts to get at you, as the work goes on, but for my size timber, 28" is the ideal bar length, so I'm good. But lots of guys use the 25" bar for 60cc, 70cc and 90cc saws, so there is a big market their, novelty or pro. 

I use the 20" ES bars to buck up with as they are cheaper and faster to resharpen when hitting dirt.

But a Lite 20" bar on my modded 260 would be the cats meow, for limbing and brush work, or as a handy skidder saw.

Sam


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## Officer's Match (Nov 9, 2011)

deye223 said:


> i like the balance of a 20" on me 460 and i would like a ES lite 25" and a 18" ES lite on my 260 *but we can't allways get what we wont*:bang:



For some reason my eyes quickly went to your avatar pic when I read that...


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 9, 2011)

A there Sam, have you weighted a 36'' ES Light bar,this will improve the balance of a 660 no end i assume.:msp_thumbup:


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> A there Sam, have you weighted a 36'' ES Light bar,this will improve the balance of a 660 no end i assume.:msp_thumbup:



No, I ran my 36" ES a little and for firewood cutting, maybe I could use a 36" bar for blocking up firewood, but for my logging, its just not practical. I got another 120 acres of this bottom ground to finish and another 100 acre cotton wood job that I'm not sure of the size of the cottonwoods, some might be big enough to justify walking wielding a 36" bar all day, but haven't see the jobsite yet, just know the acreage.

I might get excited and get a 36" Lite, but it will be awhile. Right now, I know I will use every 28" Lite bar I can get in. I'm up to 6 28"ers now. I'll level off there. I'm getting a price on a 1/2 roll of .404 semi chisel. I think I will like that for bucking up this muddy wood, and this winter its just going to get worse and worse with the mud. The cotton wood job is on a strip mine, which is like skidding on a gravel parking lot (awesome for skidding), bad for bucking up chain. I gotta get new sprockets and see about getting some 20" bars ready for .404.

I agree that a 36" Lite Bar on a 660 would balance out good, I like the balance of a 28" and I would imagine that the 36" Lite is even or lighter than a 28" ES.

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 9, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Well that settles it then, you will have to buy 70 and 90cc Stihls to use the Lite Bars, LOL.
> 
> They make those adaptors, but I'm not sure if they are a pain to use or not, I guess, onces its on, its on. So that adaptor can't be that big of a deal.
> 
> ...



The adapter can be mounted on the saw with the screw that holds the bar plate on. That way it's on there and won't fall off when you change a bar on clean it off. The only problem I have with stihl bars is it takes 92 dl on a 28" light bar to work on a husky. The 32" are the same. Fatguy made some rings up for the 576 to run a stihl mount bar on it and they work good also. The tsumura bars aren't as light as the stihl and oregons but are as stiff as a regular bar with the way the took weight out. I'm going to mount the 28" up on the 576 here for the next outing. It's lighter than a 24" total or gb bar with 3" more reach.


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> The adapter can be mounted on the saw with the screw that holds the bar plate on. That way it's on there and won't fall off when you change a bar on clean it off. The only problem I have with stihl bars is it takes 92 dl on a 28" light bar to work on a husky. The 32" are the same. Fatguy made some rings up for the 576 to run a stihl mount bar on it and they work good also. The tsumura bars aren't as light as the stihl and oregons but are as stiff as a regular bar with the way the took weight out. I'm going to mount the 28" up on the 576 here for the next outing. It's lighter than a 24" total or gb bar with 3" more reach.





mdavlee said:


> The adapter can be mounted on the saw with the screw that holds the bar plate on. That way it's on there and won't fall off when you change a bar on clean it off. The only problem I have with stihl bars is it takes 92 dl on a 28" light bar to work on a husky. The 32" are the same. Fatguy made some rings up for the 576 to run a stihl mount bar on it and they work good also. The tsumura bars aren't as light as the stihl and oregons but are as stiff as a regular bar with the way the took weight out. I'm going to mount the 28" up on the 576 here for the next outing. It's lighter than a 24" total or gb bar with 3" more reach.



How much do those cost? 

I talked to a guy that straightens and repairs bars for a living and he hates all Lightweight bars that have inserts of anykind in them. He said they are horrible to straighten, and from working in a machine shop and having to straighten quite a bit of damaged stuff myself, shafts large bar stock items, and anything with slots or pockets that aren't full length or consistent, does suck, as it will bend where you didn't want it to bend.

See what yours does when its hung over like I did with the photo'd Lite bar up there, and what does it weigh? The 28" Lite bar was 3lbs 1 ounce with the box still around it at the Post Office Scale. Andrew wieghed his 28" .063 Stihl Lite bar and it weighed 2lbs 11.73ounces, man that is light, LOL. The only way Stihl could make the bars lighter is fill them with Helium....... hey, wait a minute?! LOL. And they are still super strong.

The design is basically text book aerospace engineering stuff, as in get the material away from the center axis to improve rigidity and then find that happy medium between thickness and "lightness" and functionality. Filling the voids with aluminum or epoxy is just not ideal, certainly aluminum is a horrible idea, as it maintains whatever shape its bent to and is only 1/3 lighter than steel. Where as, air is quite a bit lighter than steel therefore less steel has to be removed in order to see huge losses in weight. The whole slotting work by either Tsumura or Oregon removes the metal from both the center axis and the outside and then replaces it with either aluminum or something that is still heavy, not good from any vantage point.

I wondered about the adaptors, I know I had seen them. If I ever run a Husky, which looks like I might have a Husky and a Jonsred coming in a few weeks with a new cutter, not sure what he's running for bars though. Not sure if he's a 24" kinda cutter or a 28" kinda cutter, LOL. I converted my best cutter Bert, this is his nephew and he's harder headed, LOL.

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 9, 2011)

The adapters are $10 or a little time in a machine shop. 

The tsumura is stiffer than the es light. It's a 32" and it was 3lb 14oz. A 30" is 3lb 5 oz so they're a little heavier than the stihl and oregon. I like the tsumura as the rails seem to last longer than any bar I've ever used.


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## Slamm (Nov 9, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> The adapters are $10 or a little time in a machine shop.
> 
> The tsumura is stiffer than the es light. It's a 32" and it was 3lb 14oz. A 30" is 3lb 5 oz so they're a little heavier than the stihl and oregon. I like the tsumura as the rails seem to last longer than any bar I've ever used.



Sounds good, what do they cost?

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 9, 2011)

They're about what the stihl list for. You have to get them out of canada. Simon can get them and send them to us south of the border. The bad part for you is stihl is 30", 32", and 36" in .063". The husky comes in 28", 30", 32", 33", 36", and 37" in .058". I wish someone down here could get them so the price would be more in line.


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## MCW (Nov 10, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Well that settles it then, you will have to buy 70 and 90cc Stihls to use the Lite Bars, LOL.
> 
> They make those adaptors, but I'm not sure if they are a pain to use or not, I guess, onces its on, its on. So that adaptor can't be that big of a deal.
> 
> Sam



I have used the adaptors Sam and they work well. The stainless milled ones from Baileys are greatand with a few very small mods work well on the Dolmars too.
I wouldn't go quite as far as buying a saw just to suit the bars I'd like to own


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## Slamm (Nov 10, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> They're about what the stihl list for. You have to get them out of canada. Simon can get them and send them to us south of the border. The bad part for you is stihl is 30", 32", and 36" in .063". The husky comes in 28", 30", 32", 33", 36", and 37" in .058". I wish someone down here could get them so the price would be more in line.



Oh mine, well no problem, it appears that I can get the Stihl Lite Bars for a lot cheaper than those bars and they are a lot lighter, better engineered, come in the right sizes and located and stocked right by me.

I see no negatives to my arrangement. The Tsumuras are shiny though.

Sam


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## Slamm (Nov 10, 2011)

MCW said:


> I have used the adaptors Sam and they work well. The stainless milled ones from Baileys are greatand with a few very small mods work well on the Dolmars too.
> I wouldn't go quite as far as buying a saw just to suit the bars I'd like to own



I will have to get one of those adaptors ready for him, as it only makes sense that he will use the Lite bars.

My cutter was wanting to get a 3rd saw for a backup to a backup, I asked him if he was going to get a Dolmar 7900 his responding text was "WTF is that?????", LOL.

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 10, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Oh mine, well no problem, it appears that I can get the Stihl Lite Bars for a lot cheaper than those bars and they are a lot lighter, better engineered, come in the right sizes and located and stocked right by me.
> 
> I see no negatives to my arrangement. The Tsumuras are shiny though.
> 
> Sam



Yeah I don't see you bettering your setup with them. Some of us that don't wear out bars that quick and have plenty of extras around can do fine with them. I wish they made a 28" in .063" is my complaint with them.

For the 28" I couldn't get a 91 dl chain to work so I made some 92 up. I guess if you ground the slot some a 91 might work but I couldn't get oregon on there even after a few tanks of stretch.


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## Slamm (Nov 10, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah I don't see you bettering your setup with them. Some of us that don't wear out bars that quick and have plenty of extras around can do fine with them. I wish they made a 28" in .063" is my complaint with them.
> For the 28" I couldn't get a 91 dl chain to work so I made some 92 up. I guess if you ground the slot some a 91 might work but I couldn't get oregon on there even after a few tanks of stretch.



I cut and topped a little over 100,000 bdft might be closer to 150,000 with the first two 28" Lite bars each on two 441's, before the rails needed to be closed, but the paint is still pretty good, well I wouldn't say good, but its their, which is amazing. I'm running .050 gauge. I'm having them closed and then when they wear out again, I might try running .063 gauge to finish them off. But I'm quite happy with the life I got out of them, especially considering, it feels like I'm walking around the woods with a powerhead and with no bar on it. Again it has everything to do with putting that grin on your face.

What are you talking about with the 91 and 92 links? With the Stihl Lite bar on a Stihl or a Husky saw?

I use 91 links and 90 will almost work. Like an idiot, I mark one chain wrong and made it 92, links, it worked for several days until the tensioner bottomed out and I caught my mistake.


Later,

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 10, 2011)

The stihl light on a husky saw took 92 dl.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok i have done the vid that most wont to see 460 stock Ozzy model (dual port muff) v 441CRM-Tronic ported v 660 BB Kit Ozzy dual port muff v 660 Snellerized with dual port muff all with the same 28'' ES Light bar and new Carlton 3/8 .063 semi chisel skip chain untouched and 7 pin sprockets.Wood is Stringybark block cut back in March.
No real sup prizes each saw got 2 or 3 seconds faster as we went to each one,had a couple of brake outs but this was the only block i had and was trying to make sure i got all the cuts in.
The 441C was created for me as a lighter,better AV,better fuel mileage,no tune,better filter system,easy start,with good torque and H power effluent felling saw and that exactly what i got and is a please to operate.
You will see with the 441C it takes couple of seconds to sort its self out early in the first cut.
For us Ozzy wood cutters i would say this an extream test of a 70,76cc saw in hard woods.

[video=youtube;Z3DoQd_Otp0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3DoQd_Otp0[/video]


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## porsche965 (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks for taking the time to make this video! Im sure it will raise alot of eyebrows too.


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## deye223 (Nov 12, 2011)

just go's to show you how good a stock 460 is , it was up against bigger cc or beter technology and ported at that and only up to 8 seconds slower and andrew thats a top vid thanks


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## Slamm (Nov 12, 2011)

I timed them, and its just like I always have been saying the modded 441 would cut more wood in a days time or week or in its life. Its just as fast as the other saws but gets better mileage and great AV.

460 MM === 38.5 and 39 seconds - Break out on first cut.
441CM === 37 and 40 seconds
660BB === 35 and 38 seconds
660 Brad === 32, 41.5 and 32 seconds - Break out on first and last cut and issue with middle cut.

I think that is pretty consistent with what I have been finding throughout my work and have been saying for years now. If the measure is, which saw can consistently cut more wood in working conditions with 28" bars and shorter it has to be the modded 441, in cookie cutting it hangs right there with 90cc saws, even if the 90cc is modded, yet will get better fuel mileage and are certainly a lot easier on you as the the operator due to great AV and being lighter.


Fantastic, and thank you Andrew,

Sam


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## porsche965 (Nov 12, 2011)

Andrew, about how many tanks of fuel have been run through these saws the videos would you guestimet? I realize some are over 25 tanks and are fully broken in, but just curious. Thanks.


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## CR500 (Nov 12, 2011)

The 441 is looking like it is going to be the new saw to my arsenal. I mean the 461 is not out yet but if it is not a CM based model The 441 is the winner.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ha John

460 is one year old and at a guess would be over 150 tanks of fuel (work horse at the moment)

441C 12 tanks 4.6hrs (felling saw) (the 4.6hrs on the works tach is not correct or rpm because of the electronic control system)

660 BB Kit 6 tanks 3.1 hrs (mainly milling saw or dry Redgum blocking)

660 Snellerized 10 tanks 5.6 hrs (blocking large rounds)


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 12, 2011)

CR500 said:


> The 441 is looking like it is going to be the new saw to my arsenal. I mean the 461 is not out yet but if it is not a CM based model The 441 is the winner.



I'm thinking the 461 will not be a M-Tronic,if is is they will not sell many 441 M-tronic.


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## Bill Becker (Nov 12, 2011)

deye223 said:


> just go's to show you how good a stock 460 is , it was up against bigger cc or beter technology and ported at that and only up to 8 seconds slower and andrew thats a top vid thanks



Ditto on both points.


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## Officer's Match (Nov 12, 2011)

CR500 said:


> The 441 is looking like it is going to be the new saw to my arsenal. I mean the 461 is not out yet but if it is not a CM based model The 441 is the winner.



Just did a little cutting with my new-to-me Snellerized 441R C-M. It flatout rips, just snorts with attitude. I even noodled some big chunks of black walnut and it just yanks like its angry as hell. I _really_ like this one.


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## blsnelling (Nov 12, 2011)

Hey, I like this kind of video. Nice job cutting too! Only thing I'd like to see is you pushing more on the 660 I did for you. I think you could get it under 30 seconds. BTW, I'd love to go back in the cylinder some day I've got some ideas I'm going to work out for this 660 build-off. If it pans out, I think there's more in your saw. BTW, you had me setting on the edge of my seat hoping the 660 put in a good time, lol:msp_ohmy:

What this video shows once again, is that the 70cc class saw is the best saw out there until the wood gets really big. Even the stock 460 was right in the mix.


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## blsnelling (Nov 12, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Just did a little cutting with my new-to-me Snellerized 441R C-M. It flatout rips, just snorts with attitude. I even noodled some big chunks of black walnut and it just yanks like its angry as hell. I _really_ like this one.



Excellent. I'd love to hear a full review after you put some time on it. Post up some vids.


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## Officer's Match (Nov 12, 2011)

blsnelling said:


> Excellent. I'd love to hear a full review after you put some time on it. Post up some vids.



I will Brad, after I get my ES Light on it. The 20" Duramatic on it now isn't giving it much challenge. Thanks for the primo job on this one, I just love the responsiveness. I think I'm going to be looking for bigger logs more than ever now.


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## Slamm (Nov 12, 2011)

Andrew, I talked with a guy at Work Connection and he is pretty sure he can get it to work with the Mtronic system. It will be mid week next week before I get back with them, but I will let you know if there is something that can be done with them.

I thought you would have had more tanks on your 441, I'm on my 11th, and will hopefully be cutting in a few days again. Will learn more about it as we get more time on them. So far so good though, it sure is hard to want to pick up another saw. By Wednesday, I'll have all 3 regular, modded 441's up and going strong, and I'll see which one, gets fondled the most, LOL. I have another batch of mini tachs in and will mount them on everything and check fuel mileage.

I'm going to check it based on actual volume of gas used and not just tanks, as that varies too much, for me anyways, sometimes it really empty, sometimes not so much. My 2nd to last tank on the Mtronics was trying to get a pretty good amount cut in that tank, but then I was done for the day.

Later,

Sam


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## Officer's Match (Nov 13, 2011)

Good, anxious to hear if the WC tach can be made to work.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 13, 2011)

Good stuff Sam,i dont even think the hrs are reading correctly as well.
The reason i have not got more hrs on the 441 C is my wood season has really finished for the year so i am not doing as much,but i dont find it hard to run it when ever i can,on the other hand its not easy to get another one so its a bit special if ya know what i mean.
I made another vid today but the video camera is playing up cant get it to work at the moment.:msp_angry:


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## MCW (Nov 13, 2011)

Slamm said:


> My cutter was wanting to get a 3rd saw for a backup to a backup, I asked him if he was going to get a Dolmar 7900 his responding text was "WTF is that?????", LOL.
> 
> Sam



Yeah I heard that most cutters are flat out getting their IQ into triple digits Sam


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## Slamm (Nov 13, 2011)

MCW said:


> Yeah I heard that most cutters are flat out getting their IQ into triple digits Sam





MCW said:


> Yeah I heard that most cutters are flat out getting their IQ into triple digits Sam



LOL, he's working on it, LOL.

He's from Wisconsin and he is currently on the fence between the 372, 576AT and the 441CM. I kinda want him to get the 576AT and we modd it. I told him I can get him any of them for cost or less, so he's thinking ....... (thats a good thing). This kid is a speed freak, everything he has, has to be modded or something, and I was wondering why on earth he didn't just get the 7900, so I texted him that very question ........... well, "WTF is a 7900?????" was his response, I just laughed and said nevermind. I do what I can to help others, LOL.

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2011)

Sam the 576 was stronger than a 7300 and a 681 when we ran it up around 3500 ft. It was really surprising to say the least. I think you guys would really like the 576.


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## Slamm (Nov 13, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> Sam the 576 was stronger than a 7300 and a 681 when we ran it up around 3500 ft. It was really surprising to say the least. I think you guys would really like the 576.



Yeah, I want to run one, but only for CAD reasons, as it isn't likely it runs so much faster or has that much better mileage, as to have one duck in a flock of swans, LOL, but I do want to try it, to check its mileage and powerband from my working point of view. The problem with getting a foreigner into or around my stable of Stihls is sometimes prices and a lot of parts/chain issues. Everything I have fits everything else, and I have my own stock pile and all for very cheap. Thats why for my setup things have to be really outstanding, before I would change anything, and if I change it, its all getting changed, and usually they have to be different by a decent amount in the MPG or speed area (with quality a given). I am quite adaptable to "feel" of a saw, and I don't give in to 1-2 second cookie cutting differences, so something will have to be really good, before I have any desire to look at it. Here on Arboristsite, nobody cares about efficiency, they just all flock to the latest .4 second faster saw, irregardless of build quality or efficiency. A modded 441 has been the one of the most efficient wood cutting saws, if not the most efficient wood cutting saws, that I have tried out or look into extensively from a timber fallers point of view, it is lightweight, fast and gets mileage out of this world for its speed. No other saw is in its class in all areas.

That said, as soon as the 441 Mtronic came out I wanted to swap every 441 to that system, when the 576AT shows up, and runs with it, then I want to check its mileage mostly, because I think these Mtronic/Autotuned Strato saws are where its at for higher production cutting. I don't think Husky has the build quality of Stihl to the Nth degree, but they are quite good and dependable for the pro, the 576AT is in the same league as far as speed, so for me there is just checking the mileage, for me to have the thing "wrung out", from the point of view that efficiency would have.

I want Stihl to win, but I want it to always have some stiff competition, to keep them thinking, LOL, and I think the 576AT is right there and maybe surpased it by a little, but other than the 576AT, I see the rest of the 70cc competition quite a ways back. 

I really wonder about this new 461, if it doesn't have the AV and good MPG engine, I don't see it taking the 441Mtronic in efficiency, it will beat it in sales, but Stihl has to make a saw for those blind followers of the 460 that think just because its been around for 100 years its the best, when that isn't the case, its reliable as all get out, but its very inefficient. 

They are likely making the 461 non-strato so that the saleman can tell the "stuck in a rut" logger "NO", when he asks if its "One of those damm, new, fangled Strato saws." That alone will bring the 460 followers over to the 461. I do think if the 461 doesn't have a strato'd engine it will be hard to beat in efficiency, as the engine design that we think they went with is tops.

The second old feature will be the rubber mounted AV, for all of those that can't adjust to the feel of the Steel spring AV systems. I never understood, that one, steels springs are a better system, there are millions of Husky operators that have "adjusted" to it, yet when it comes to the same (or better) version of it on the 441, suddenly we can't "adjust to the feel of it". 

Anyways, I think the future is looking bright for the new saw tech, the 441CM and 576AT will likely keep each other sharp, and it will be interesting to see what comes out different on the 461, and from what I've heard the 661 is already a winner in working circles, just have to get it into production, which Stihl should do and does consistently do a great job of ironing out the wrinkles before they introduce a new model. 

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2011)

The 576 does get some great mileage a tank. I kept checking it the day we were bucking firewood and it had plenty left until we were pretty much done. I didn't keep track of what we cut and split that day but it seemed like a whole lot for one tank. I can see your problem with the bars/chains and extra parts interchange making it harder to switch over. For a long time I woulnd't run husky saws either and then I came on here adn ended up with a 372xpw. Now that's mostly what I run.


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## Slamm (Nov 13, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> The 576 does get some great mileage a tank. I kept checking it the day we were bucking firewood and it had plenty left until we were pretty much done. I didn't keep track of what we cut and split that day but it seemed like a whole lot for one tank.



That is a good sign for the 576AT, as when you keep looking into the tank and it keeps showing that you have longer to cut, its a good sign of mileage, I love saws like that, provided the speed and power is there that is just more wood on the ground.

When you use a 460, you don't usually have this problem, LOL.

The 361 is one of the best at that little trick, you cut and cut and cut, and check the tank and you used 1/8. Then you cut for longer and piles of wood, and then check again and its at 1/2 tank, LOL.

I remember was first got me onto the kick of running efficient saws was when I was logging a horribly steep sidehill in Wisconsin. The 660 was getting about 4ish trees cut and topped per tank. By afternoon, I was so tired, that I just grabbed the 361 just to keep cutting something, and not loose the day. Well, I cut and topped 14ish trees, sometimes upwards of 16 trees per tank and thats what started me thinking that cookie cutting speed isn't always that answer if you will just see past your nose a little. That little 361 had me ending the day without my tongue hanging out of my mouth, as like previous days, because there was a balance of cutting speed and "lightweightness" that was matched with how I liked to work, which is full on running in an efficient manner.

When you figure that cutting a tree over is only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time spent on that tree, you begin to realize that raw, ineffecient power does not always allow you to cut more wood in a day's time, because there is more to production cutting than just pulling the trigger, you have to carry that thing around and fuel it up and hold it.............. sidehills make these other variables quite apparent in a big way.

I am thankful for that horrible job on nothing but a steep sidehill for the whole job, because then I wouldn't have the experience to want to find another way, other than just repeating after everyone else in the area or career choice, that the 660 is the only answer. I tried the 460 and it was lighter, but drinks gas too much and no AV. The obvious choice in Stihl's line up at the time was the 441, but we knew the power wasn't right, so modding it was the key to a perfect compromise of power, efficiency and comfort. 

Such a combination makes for consistent wood cutting production that is very repeatable and dependable, in most situations. I do enjoy running the modded 660 on flat ground in big trees, but it doesn't put anymore on the ground per hour all day than the modded 441. In the morning, sometimes yes, but if you are hoofing it pretty quickly all day, then no.

I have other good cutters check this out, guys that are paid on production, and they try the two and they find the same thing, as Bert would say, "I would walk a 1/2 mile past that modded 660 just to run that modded 441 all day." He knows what is more efficient and what tool helps him be more efficient at making money.

As to other brands or models of 70cc saws, they are usually missing something in the total package. This 576AT is likely to finally give the 441CM a good run for it, and then it will truly be a toss up to which brand of dealer you like or if one falls apart faster or not .................... years from now. I happen to know the durability of the 441 chasis, as I know how abusive I am on saws, and I have broken the AV mounts on 660's and 460's due to over zealous pulling during a pinch, never have I broke a 441 anything during normal or harsh use, for years now. The only thing that has slowed them down in service is getting smashed by trees or other true "wonders" in operator/employee error, LOL, which isn't the 441's fault.

Sam


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## Officer's Match (Nov 13, 2011)

Glad to hear of that type of durability Sam. I'm thinking a little bit of weight is a reasonable tradeoff in that case.


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 13, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Just did a little cutting with my new-to-me Snellerized 441R C-M. It flatout rips, just snorts with attitude. I even noodled some big chunks of black walnut and it just yanks like its angry as hell. I _really_ like this one.



The more ya use it the more your going to like it,they are as you say feel angry and willing and a pleasure to use.
Get some vids up if ya can.


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## Meadow Beaver (Nov 13, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> Sam the 576 was stronger than a 7300 and a 681 when we ran it up around 3500 ft. It was really surprising to say the least. I think you guys would really like the 576.



Your 576 would have been stronger witha raised exhaust port.


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## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2011)

I think I left a lot on the table inside of that one compared to a 372. I was a little scared of raising the exhaust at that time without being able to really gain some more compression.


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## Meadow Beaver (Nov 13, 2011)

It had plenty of bottom end Mike, raising the exhaust port some will give you better snap and add some top end.


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## Slamm (Nov 13, 2011)

Are you guys talking about modding a 576AT or a regular one?

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2011)

It was a regular one I had last year. I didn't change any timing numbers in it.


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## Slamm (Nov 13, 2011)

Are there any ported 576AT's around, as I honestly don't want to mess with stock stuff at all or for very long, because I know I won't keep it stock, because there is too much on the table with most saws to leave them stock. So it sucks to be out cutting and know, that this could be happening faster, and still carrying the same weight saw ........ actually porting lightens the saw, LOL.

What will or have modded 576's done when compared to 372's? ............ a 576 is a strato saw right?

Officer Match, get some videos up of your modded 441CM, and keep track of your tanks through it. It would be interesting to see when the CM's "wake up".

Sam


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## mdavlee (Nov 13, 2011)

I wasn't really planning on porting mine as it will be harder to sell if I decide to. I might get brave and do it but it will be awhile since I'm going back to work next week.


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## inthewoodsagain (Nov 20, 2011)

*Glad you like the Stihl 441cm saw. Are'nt they amazing.*



Stihlman441 said:


> Ok guys have been playing with the 441C in a work environment this time as it will have to get used to it or pack its bags.We are on the second tank today and got into my late season Stringbark firewood, had interesting couple of hours.The more i use this saw the more i like it,its amazing how it adjusts its self as you go,in the vid you can see when i put the dogs in and push it seams to find another gear and away it goes,when you push instead of bogging down like a normal saw it gust keeps going and even increases in rpm if this is how saws are going to be in the future than i m all for it bring it on 661C.
> I allso had a little experiment today i normally use Caltex Premium fuel 95 Ron Octane no Ethanol but on the way out to the bush i got some BP Ultimate Premium 98 Ron Octane no Ethanol fuel so on the third tank i used this,well it didn't like it for a min or so and then after it worked it out all was good again.So far i am very impressed with this saw and its performance.
> To be continued.
> 
> ...



Nice to see you using BP Ultimate fuel aswell. It does make a difference.
One other tip I learn't ffor these saws is to retune carb after MM. This is how it is done and should also make a difference if not already done.

1 - remove chain and guide bar

2- replace chain srocket cover

3- Set master control lever to Start ie bottom setting with arrow next to it

4- Start saw but do NOT blip throttle trigger and leave to run for 60 seconds, then move trigger switch to stop. Callibration is done.

The saw carb callibrates its self in this mode and time sequence. It is inportant not to blip the throttle but to leave alone for this time period. By moving trigger to stop position, the saw's memory will remember the settings for any future start-up. 

Cheers:msp_smile:


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## Officer's Match (Nov 20, 2011)

inthewoodsagain said:


> Nice to see you using BP Ultimate fuel aswell. It does make a difference.
> One other tip I learn't ffor these saws is to retune carb after MM. This is how it is done and should also make a difference if not already done.
> 
> 1 - remove chain and guide bar
> ...



Interesting, I hadn't heard of this.


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## young (Nov 20, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Interesting, I hadn't heard of this.





young said:


> full list and ipl
> 
> *19* different parts needed to convert over to m-tronic.



http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=207958&d=1321832763

its all here in the tech sheet


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 22, 2011)

Slamm said:


> Andrew, I talked with a guy at Work Connection and he is pretty sure he can get it to work with the Mtronic system. It will be mid week next week before I get back with them, but I will let you know if there is something that can be done with them.
> 
> Sam do you have an update on the Works tachs on the 441C ?.


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## Slamm (Nov 22, 2011)

No Andrew, I have been quite busy, but I will call them today and get it sorted out, I mounted my first tach on my 660 yesterday and was going to mount the rest on the 441's and call him. Yours are mailed.

I don't mind the zip tie mount, as I think it works find, but have you thought about screwing them to the mount handle? The good thing about the zip ties is if they get hit, they can move inboard a little an save themselves.

Later,

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Nov 22, 2011)

Ya i know what you mean,but it may be a good thing if they can move if knocked instead of braking them.I have cut that adhesive tape into a strip and used it down the middle seams to stop them moving around.


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## Stihlman441 (Dec 15, 2011)

Its on the 22nd tank and all is well,im liking this 28'' ES Lite bar they make a very nice pair,blocking Swompgum (hard even when green) with a Carlton 3/8 .063 semi chisel skip chain and 7 pin sprocket.:smile2:

[video=youtube;GYndhgRqVLI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYndhgRqVLI[/video]


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## Officer's Match (Dec 15, 2011)

Sounds oh so familiar. I love how rev happy these things are, they just sing in the cut.


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## blsnelling (Dec 15, 2011)

She definately sounds VERY angry at that wood


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## porsche965 (Dec 15, 2011)

*Ms441c*

Andrew, good video.

At 22 tanks and doing quite well I see. Have you observed any increase/decrease in mileage or change over the last 10 tanks or so? She should be well broken in by now and sure sounds good. Even at idle the sound is good!


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## Stihlman441 (Dec 15, 2011)

This may sound a bit stupid but i am trying to limit the 441s use to felling only to preserve it to some degree. 
As we know this saw and Johns are very rear and one offs to a point so i tend to use my stock 460 as the work horse of the family,but when i do give her a run it is a please to use and makes me smile every time.:smile2: 
It has loosened up allot from new as is very free revving,can pop,spit on the rev limiter very easily if you don't keep some load on it,as for fuel use im not sure on the hrs on the Mini tach as im not home at the moment, will have to get back to ya on that. 
I am definitely thinking of another one of these 441Cs ported wrap model and set it up for blocking.

This vid is on my phone so sorry for its quality,this is were these saws shine can do this all day with no vibe problems and need to carrying around a fuel tanker they make work so muck easyer and a joy.

[video=youtube;RUECVtr44_4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUECVtr44_4[/video]


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## Officer's Match (Dec 16, 2011)

Stihlman441 said:


> This may sound a bit stupid but i am trying to limit the 441s use to felling only to preserve it to some degree.



That's where we differ - I'm using the snot outta' mine, despite the smile lines.


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 16, 2012)

Just out of interest i put a 8 pin sprocket on the MTronic today,i think i will go back to the 7 pin its a little to tall for it and if you have an agressive chain then no way.
[video=youtube;_NccLVARPuY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NccLVARPuY&feature=endscreen&NR=1[/video]

[video=youtube;gyR9ElSyem0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyR9ElSyem0&NR=1&feature=endscreen[/video]


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## deye223 (Jan 16, 2012)

nice one andrew i did one yesterday but had to use my sons phone (long story) but when we dumped it on the computer it is on it's side and we cant find a way to rotate it


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 16, 2012)

Cheers mate,put ya vid on youtube and go video manager (top right) then edit vid and ya can rotate it there.


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## deye223 (Jan 16, 2012)

thanks man just gotter figure out where to put it (wich thread)


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 23, 2012)

I have started a new post if you guys wont to see what i have been up to.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/191377.htm


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 23, 2012)

Ya got a good eye.


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## inthewoodsagain (Jan 26, 2012)

inthewoodsagain said:


> Nice to see you using BP Ultimate fuel aswell. It does make a difference.
> One other tip I learn't ffor these saws is to retune carb after MM. This is how it is done and should also make a difference if not already done.
> 
> 1 - remove chain and guide bar
> ...


Hi and am glad you are enjoying your sawhttp://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. we have been VERY busy lately so no time for updates but here goes!

We now have 8 X ms441 c-m's - 2 x 18" , 4 x 25" and 2 x 30" all stihl bar and chain except 1x 25" is a Duo bar as is running in VERY hard Elm! yes we still have the odd tree. but still all with RSC 3/8 chain. We tried to get the 27" light bars but stihl uk are asking a FORTUNE so we went for the bigger 30" for a cheaper pricehttp://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/msp_smile.gif and are ES's so still good and which to be honest the saws aren't bothered.

All bar oil pumps have being up rated to the larger pump mod due to major oil issues!!!! ie NONE on 25" and 30" bars and all now have the larger sprocket covers and on two of the saws 25" and 30" we have fullwrap handles!- for a purpose before anybody winges!!!

All still run on stihl oils ie Bioplus and Ultra but am getting annoyed that it cannot be bought more cheaper in bulk instead of silly small containers. after all Mobil makes it! Have traded all small ie ms240 size saws including my favorite 211's for 4x ms241cm as I know they will be good and as with the bigger ones ,are alot better on fuel usage and DON'T stink of petrol/oil fumes and will have plenty of torque and will run at there optimum. 

I am very happy with all my saws and as with many of you guys out there, PLEASE will somebody at Stihl bring us the MS661c-m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks

I have 3 x ms 660's which are frankly finnished and I will be lucky if they see this season out. They are not even worth parts as each keeps the other going! They have done alot so I would'nt sell them anyway but they have taught me one lesson and that is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

Cheers


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 30, 2012)

Good stuff mate cheap us posted on the CMs performance.:msp_thumbsup:


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## Edge & Engine (Feb 16, 2012)

Did anyone try setting the tach to 2 pulses per revolution? 720 mode on Fast Tach or Tech Tach. Just curious.


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## mdavlee (Feb 16, 2012)

Edge & Engine said:


> Did anyone try setting the tach to 2 pulses per revolution? 720 mode on Fast Tach or Tech Tach. Just curious.



I can try that later on today with the fast tach on the 555.


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## Slamm (Feb 16, 2012)

I tried every setting with the Works Connection engineer/tech on the phone and he/we couldn't get it to work at all levels of Free Reving, in the cut or under 13,000ish the tach worked fine for me. Its when the saw hits the rev limiter or you start to make the Mtronic work the ignition, thats when the small tach begins showing an estimated rpm in weirdo ranges higher than 18,000ish.

I will probably hack up the explain of the process for why this happens, but another knowledgeable guy stated that the tach is making a calculation to come up with the rpm amount, not something as simple as one rpm per one "sensed" spark, and when the rev limiter is hit or you start to make the Mtronic start "tuning" the ignition timing that is when things go weird with that calculation.

That being said, the little tach comes set at the correct setting for a saw, but its the ignition advancing/retarding that messes up the tach's ability to correctly calculate the rpm during this process of the Mtronic hunting for the proper ignition advance or "retardation" in order to maximize performance.

I'm picking up two Mtronic's tomorrow and will add the tachs to them tomorrow and continue working figuring this out. I put 10 hours on my regular, painted 441 a few days ago (in one day), so I will try to check the hours accuracy against the regular 441's to see if that is still working correctly, as that could be a calculation that is screwed up by the Mtronic, depending on how the program is designed to calculate "time".

Later,

Sam


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## mdavlee (Feb 16, 2012)

The 555 when revved out of wood showed 12.8k. It didn't have a problem reading the autotune saw. The 3120 through it for a loop as soon as it went over 10.8k it started cutting out. It did record a high of 11.8 so I'm pretty sure it's got the 12k rpm tach.


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## Slamm (Feb 16, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> The 555 when revved out of wood showed 12.8k. It didn't have a problem reading the autotune saw.



Does the 555's "autotune" make adjustments to the ignition's timing based on work load? If it doesn't then it should work fine with most tach's.

The Mtronic monitors the rpm's and workload and modifies the timing in order to provide maximum performance.

Sam


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## mdavlee (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm not sure what it changes. I'll try it in the wood and see if it goes crazy.


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## porsche965 (Feb 16, 2012)

Slamm said:


> I tried every setting with the Works Connection engineer/tech on the phone and he/we couldn't get it to work at all levels of Free Reving, in the cut or under 13,000ish the tach worked fine for me. Its when the saw hits the rev limiter or you start to make the Mtronic work the ignition, thats when the small tach begins showing an estimated rpm in weirdo ranges higher than 18,000ish.
> 
> I will probably hack up the explain of the process for why this happens, but another knowledgeable guy stated that the tach is making a calculation to come up with the rpm amount, not something as simple as one rpm per one "sensed" spark, and when the rev limiter is hit or you start to make the Mtronic start "tuning" the ignition timing that is when things go weird with that calculation.
> 
> ...



Sam, Aren't you getting some very useful knowledge of the rpms in the cut anyway even if the WOT rpms are being confused and negated out of the recorded highs? Just thinking....and with M-Tronic or AutoTune does it really matter what the WOT rpms are anyway? You can't change them, except maybe by a performance change with a different rim sproket pulling in the cut? 
Just thinking...for what little I know.
One thing is certain, the M-Tronics have many things worked out the way they run. Just wait for the 461 and the 661! That will be something for sure!
Take care.


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## David (saltas) (Feb 19, 2012)

I put a works connection tachometer on the MS241 yesterday and it worked fine below 10k

I decided it was the ignition timing being advanced and retarded that was confusing the tachometer.

I did make a video of this.

[video=youtube_share;LaH5Pl4AN1o]http://youtu.be/LaH5Pl4AN1o[/video]

I just read slams comments and I agree with what he has posted


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## Slamm (Feb 19, 2012)

I had a Works Connection Tach's on my old 441 CM and it worked very similar to how yours is working there. I could cut with it and show in the cut readings of say 10,200 or something, but it did get irractic at times, shooting up to 18,000 and whatnot.

Then yesterday I tried to get 4 different Works Connection Tach's to just do what that tach and your tach are doing and none of them would do it. Also, they would only run semi correctly on the 1.0 setting, and not the .5 setting like my old one did and possibly like yours is doing? I can't explain that either.

But after much testing and playing around with different wire wrapping techniques and locations, I found that they went weird at just above 7,000 rpms, and it didn't matter what you did with the wire at all, bear in mind that my other tach a Tech Tach-20K and it works just fine with the 441 CM and that is how I was testing it.

So if you slowly reved up the engine it would start getting dumb at 7,000. I appears that yours did it too. You could hold steady rpms at say 6,300, but then after that it was jumping to 8k, 10k or 500rpm it went all over the place.

Anyways, I have a solution maybe two solutions, but I'm going to finish out the mounting first and try somemore before I say its a complete solution, so as to not misguide anyone.

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Feb 20, 2012)

Did a quick vid today of the 261 dual port muff with the Work Connectoin tack on it, 3/8 .063 18'' Carlton semi chisel chain 7 pin sprocket in Redgum.
Its not the best bit hard on ya lonesome but ya get the idear how its supposed to work,i leaned it out to 13700 13800 after seeing this,havnt tuned it for awhile.

[video=youtube;XbuPrSLorsU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbuPrSLorsU[/video]


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 27, 2012)

For those of you that dont wont a ported 441CMTronic i have been playing around with a stock one,then did a muff modd on it which has improved a good thing to a better thing.
Stock on second tank of fuel 20'' bar new semi chisel chain,8 pin sprocket,top wood is Pine bottom dryish Sugargum.

[video=youtube;bKiNyhBS0OE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKiNyhBS0OE[/video]


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 27, 2012)

Same bar and chain but with muff modd.

[video=youtube;exwpA0mjccY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exwpA0mjccY[/video]


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## deye223 (Apr 27, 2012)

cool man:boss:


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 27, 2012)

Stock muff







Muff modd


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 27, 2012)

This i found interesting,the saw on the left is ported from new and has had about 40 tanks of fuel through it,the saw on the right is on its second tank of fuel stock.(started to take muff off when i noticed colour )
Notice the colour differances the stock saw is running higher temps.


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 27, 2012)

Third tank of fuel in Pine.
The MTronic system has no problem adjusting itself to the muff modd,this saw is going to be ported so the large size opening may not be required on a stock one.Even if you leave the spark screen in and opened the port up as much as possible will help a lot.

[video=youtube;RbgLlRkiP7c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbgLlRkiP7c[/video]


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 28, 2012)

deye223 said:


> cool man:boss:



I think you are going to have to run one just to see how cool they really are.:msp_wink:


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## blsnelling (Apr 28, 2012)

I saw roughly a 4 second gain, good for about 11-12%. Not bad at all for just a MM. It sounds to be holding it's RPMs WAY better with the MM.


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## deye223 (Apr 29, 2012)

Stihlman441 said:


> I think you are going to have to run one just to see how cool they really are.:msp_wink:



just keep a big block handy andy we will get there LOL:big_smile:


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## Stihlman441 (May 8, 2012)

Fresh one.
The son in law to be took the other one.:msp_smile:
I ordered this on the 3/5 and today being the 8/5 thats not bad 5 days from the UK.:msp_biggrin:


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## Rudolf73 (May 8, 2012)

Must be be good saw then, having fun with yours Andrew?


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## Stihlman441 (May 8, 2012)

Rudolf73 said:


> Must be be good saw then, having fun with yours Andrew?



I only got to use it for three days and then it was gorne.

I just realised i put this in the wrong thread.


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