# Bucket rescue question



## topnotchtree (Mar 15, 2005)

*Bucket rescue*

This was brought up at mondays safety meeting and had everyone stumped. If a trimmer has an accident and needs to be rescued, and you see a wire on the truck or boom and think the truck may be energized, whats the procedure? We are trained to use a pole pruner to move the lower controls on the truck to manuver the boom to safety. But what do you do if you have no access to the lower controls?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 15, 2005)

Call the emergency in.

John Balls analysis of the deth stats show that most multiple death accidents are contact related where the second worker tried to help the first.


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## topnotchtree (Mar 15, 2005)

Definately call for help. Any more guesses?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 15, 2005)

What else can you do, unless you have a full set of hot gear.

There are times when trying anything will make things worse.

So stand out by the street to flag the rescue people in.

Kenny has a very good emergency system with the job location and a script for the caller to go through so nothing is forgotten.


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## topnotchtree (Mar 15, 2005)

Use your pole pruner to move the outrigger controls just a little bit. If the boom is in the air and you move the outrigger controls out, the 1 inch farther you extend the outrigger translates into moving the boom over quite a distance, hopefully moving operator out of danger. Honesly re-reading my own post I realized I should have worded it differently. If the wire is on the truck this wouldnt work. But if the wire is on the basket or operator, movint the outriggers OUT may move the operator from danger.


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## glens (Mar 15, 2005)

Not to necessarily advocate it, but couldn't one <i>leap onto</i> a "hot" rig without getting hurt?&nbsp; Birds essentially do that all the time, happily sit there until they get bored, then safely "leap" off again.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 15, 2005)

That's how I was trained.


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## duartebigmex (Mar 15, 2005)

Did you asked that question.
Just curious. :blob5: 
I guess what was the answer they gave you or you gave.


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## darkstar (Mar 15, 2005)

if another bucket or crane is available ..get into position and lower into the rescue situation using non conductive materal ... haha jump the last 3 feet .... better yet take out your duck gun and blow the wires to heck ,,,, once they are out your ok haha but no seriously ..... really call the power board imm. and the rescue team .... if it was my guy id get into position .... problem is getting back out dry poly pro does not conduct vey well ...,my2 cents


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## clearance (Mar 15, 2005)

Here opinions are not good or called for. "I think" is wrong, it had better be "I know". Guys, this isn't about wearing spurs pro or con, it is about life and death facts. In the first place, if you are working around power, the groundsman should be trained for emergencies. He should know the phone# of the utility at the very least and preferably the name of the circuit. He should know about step potential and touch or contact potential. To the question-you think the truck is energized, what now? Stay back at least 33ft on voltages under 75kv. If you are closer when contact happens, shuffle or hop away. Call the utility advise them what has happened and they will de- energize the circuit and send emergency personnel. Keep everyone out of the area, even if you have to use force. No matter what, do not enter that area untill you know the circuit is shut down, the utility will tell you on the phone. Forget about jumping onto the truck like a bird, forget about using a hotstick even if you have one. Maybe the guy in the bucket will die, but your primary responsibility is to make sure you are safe and to keep people back. A lineman told me " if it hits the fan, fire, transformers exploding, whatever, and you are still alive, you are going to stay alive unless you do something stupid" If you are not trained for it don't work in close proximity to the line.


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## tophopper (Mar 16, 2005)

very well put clearance- i would agree, unless you are trained to deal with that particular situation, you are probably putting yourself at risk as well,call for help and dont become victim number 2!!!!


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## darkstar (Mar 16, 2005)

i think my 10 guage would solve the problems of hot lines ....jus kiddin


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## VTMechEng (Mar 16, 2005)

There was a time when jumping onto an energized truck was acceptable but that has changed. ANSI now states you will stay away from the truck and let the pro's take care of things. I look at it this way, we say only pros should do tree work and as for energized rescue we should let the pros do their job.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 16, 2005)

VTMechEng said:


> There was a time when jumping onto an energized truck was acceptable but that has changed.



Yah, it _was_ twenty-five years since I was supposedly "trained" to do that.


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## topnotchtree (Mar 16, 2005)

I believe every rescue situation is different. As I said I should have been much more specific as the details of the situation. If the bucket operator cannot move and needs rescued and is in contact with a wire, moving the outrigger out on one side of the truck will manuver the bucket, hopefully away from danger. Again using a non conductive tool to move the controls. I understand fully calling the utility company immediately, but I for one would have a very hard time watching my coworker being hurt in such a situation. I believe I would try anything I could do to save him, understanding my own safety. I believe the idea of moving the outrigger controls to move the bucket is just another idea to keep in the back of your mind. Just incase anyone gets in that situation, the more ideas they have to attempt a rescue, the better.


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## dayman (Mar 16, 2005)

Calling local electric utilities can be problematic. Even if you have the main number precious time is lost getting in contact with the right person to cut power to an area. 

Take the time at your convenience to call the utility. Talk to them and let them know that you're putting together a list of direct contact numbers to the person who sits next to the on/off switch. There may be several numbers depending on the size of your work area. With the various map drawing programs available it would be a simple thing to make a map with zones outlined and the direct number attached. Color coding the zones would make it very easy to make the right call.

As we all know, going through phone trees takes lots of time and there is the chance that we can get dropped out of the tree at any time.


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2005)

Here there is an emergency # that linemen or treeguys can call at the utility control centre. I saw this phone when I visited there, it sits alone on its own table and it is answered r.f.n. always. One call does it all, they kill the line then they send fire, police, ambulance, a line crew, compensation board, whole cavalry. Second question-the guy in the bucket is contacted by the line, what now? A bucket truck used around power should be dielectrically tested, they all are here. So then, the upper boom a few feet past the knuckle is insulated, the hydraulic fluid is insulated and the man in the bucket will be at the same voltage as the line, as long as he is not contacting anything else (like a tree). If you have been trained about power and can work the boom then use the lower controls to get him out of there. This is assuming that the line is not broken and that the bucket is underneath or beside the line. It would really suck to bring the line onto the knuckle or something like that. I would want to be using the overide, deadman controls while being on the truck. Whatever you do in an emergency you have to think twice about it.


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## dayman (Mar 16, 2005)

What if the lower boom is energized?


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2005)

If the lower boom is hot then the truck is hot. The lower boom is never insulated, only part of the upper boom. Look at my first post on this subject.


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## alanarbor (Mar 16, 2005)

That may depend on the bucket. I know the Aerial Lift of CT buckets have an isolator on the lower boom, just above the turret. I belive most high rangers do as well. I know you're correct on some of the older Altec/Asplundh buckets though. I think the current running through this thread (pun intended) is.........

Don't be a second victim! If you're not sure what to do, call for help and don't touch anything.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 16, 2005)

tophopper said:


> very well put clearance-



I second the motion


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## Brock2saws (Mar 17, 2005)

VTMechEng said:


> There was a time when jumping onto an energized truck was acceptable but that has changed. ANSI now states you will stay away from the truck and let the pro's take care of things. I look at it this way, we say only pros should do tree work and as for energized rescue we should let the pros do their job.




I was trained to shuffle/hop to the truck and then leap onto it just last year. It was part of my Electrical Hazard Awareness Program from TCI. They sent a copy the ANSI standards too, but I didn't notice in that ANSI contradicted what TCI was teaching. 

I remember recently that the ANSI standards were going to be updated. Have new ANSI standards been published since Sept of 2004? Is this when the policy changed? 

I wouldn't be surprised if the TCI materials are inaccurate (or outright dangerous). This same material advocated an unsecured footlock of the tail of an injured climber's system for rescue. But that's another thread altogether.

BAB


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## dayman (Mar 17, 2005)

There are lots of pieces of the TCIA EHAP program that need updating to current trade standards. Those videos were made in 1989. Has anything changed in the trade since then? Unsecured FL was standard then, not now.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2005)

dayman said:


> There are lots of pieces of the TCIA EHAP program that need updating to current trade standards. Those videos were made in 1989. Has anything changed in the trade since then? Unsecured FL was standard then, not now.



Why did TW have problems there?  I can remember him shaking his head on a number of points I brought up.


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## EricB (Apr 1, 2005)

*Rescue method*

The training I recived was to keep a clean dry rope unused in a saftey kit, than use that rope to break contact. Also an insulated pole saw may be used to break contact. Once contact has been broken, it would be possible to operate the lower controls, if still operable. When breaking the contact with the energized line, you must be careful not to touch phases. The phase to phase voltage is actually higher than phase to ground. 7.6 phase to ground is 13.2 phase to phase due to three phase power.

If you are unable to break contact it may be possible to operate the bucket with a insulated pole saw or rope to break contact. If any attempt is made to approach the truck, you must always shuffle your feet keeping your feet constaly touching each other to get near the truck. It is hard to tell where the step potential zone may begin. If this is not possible, as a last resort, you could shuffle with feet constaly touching each other up to the truck and then jump on to the truck without touching the ground and the truck at the same time. 

All thse techniques take practice and should be evulated prior to use. On a rainy or really muddy day, the rope could become dirty quickly and become conductive. If the bucket truck has stopped running even with battery back-up system or the tires are on fire, it would not make muck sense to get on the truck. Same goes for if you dont have the proper rescue equip. The rescue equip has to be placed out side of the truck in a safe place out of the step potential area of the truck. On wet days the step potential could go for 50 ft or more from the truck. None of these techniques should be tried without practice. Our company practices every month a different situation. Normally takes about 3-4 hours depending on how may times mistakes are made. Time is also important if the victim is alive or has not been shocked badly. Brain damage starts after 4 mins after blood circulation has stopped. Current First aid and CPR training are also requirements 

Aerial rescue should be practiced monthly. These techniques are not something I would want to learn under a life or death situation. It is also not worth dying to find out what works. 

Also if you are not line clearance trained trimmer you should not go near enough to Electrical conductors to get in to trouble.

Rescuing climbers that have made direct or indirect contact with a conductor is simmilar to the procdures for breaking contact, execpt it may be possible to climb a hot tree without spurs and break contact. The reason not to use spurs on a hot tree is the power could flow in the sap.

These are the rescue techinques I have been taught, but if you have no training with these techinques, it is best not to be hurt or killed and stay back and keep others back to minimize injuries. Unfortunately there may not be a technique that can save the victim and this must also be reconized.


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## clearance (Apr 1, 2005)

The rope is always hot, the hot tree should never be climbed. Pleese guys, its bad enough to have one dead person, never mind more. You have to keep back the public, for thier own safety and to stop them from "helping". Eric you sound like you have a lot of knowledge about power, don't agree with it all but you make some good points-like if you are not trained to work around power then stay away from it. Do you work for Asplundh?


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## vharrison2 (Apr 15, 2005)

I agree with clearance


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## coydog (Apr 16, 2005)

so do I
I also second that the hopping techniques are outdated, and insulated booms are the same as ropes and pole pruners, get them dirty or scratched up and they are nothing but a false sense of security.


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## juststumps (Apr 22, 2005)

some good idea's here....but
1 if your not trained to work around live wires,,,stay away!!!
2 energized wires are deadly,,, deenergized wires are deadly,,, the only safe wire are ones that are deenergized and grounded!!!!
3 the hop skip jump,, is for getting away from an energized truck,,, not for getting on!!!!!
4 i don't know what you guys use,,,but the pole saw thing won't work on the lower controls.... you need two hands.....one for the controls,, one to enable it....
5 as far as dropping the outriggers....i know i can't move them until the boom is stowed!!!!! but thats on the stuff i use...

number one discharge of duty,, is to work safe!!!!
if in doubt, call the pros!!!!

jd full time HV electrician, part time groundie, stumpgrinder


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## Chris11 (May 4, 2005)

Hello,

look here http://www.big-boys.com/articles/boompower.html
I would definitely stay away.

Christian


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