# Iron Injections



## TreeJunkie (May 5, 2005)

I know this is prob in the wrong area of the site but it seems like the other areas don't get the same kind of exposure. I need a little help here.

Anyone out there doing iron injections for chlorosis especially on pin oaks? Here in the Kansas City area we have consistent problems with our pin oaks becoming chlorotic, not because of a lack of iron in the soil, however because the ph is too high. Because of this general fertilization is rather futile b/c the trees can't utilize the nutients. 
At my previous employer we would drill several small holes around the root flare approx. 2/3 deep and fill the holes w/ a special concoction of ingredients. In the following weeks we would see a drastic difference in the vitality and color of these trees. However this method is only a temporary fix, only last one to two years. Someone told me the have a similar problem where they're from and they apply granular sulfar at 2 lbs per 100 sq. ft. Will this actully help to lower the ph enough to help? And will it harm the grass?

I find the drill hole method to be fairly invasive particularly on smaller trees.
This is the main reason for my post because today I bid to inject 5 pin oaks 8-10" dia. and i'm somewhat affraid of using the above method on these smaller trees. Not only am i afraid of the wounding but also of whether i will be able to acheive adequate uptake of the solution.

Would a gravity feed solution be a better choice? Would this allow for more uptake w/ less intrusion?

What do you the rest of you find to be the best method for this scenario.


Thanks...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 6, 2005)

The first problem is they have the wrong tree in the wrong spot. Why plant acid loving trees on limestone?
Sulfur will help with the soil, but needs to be applied 2 to 4 times a year, how do you work that out commercially? Sulfur can burn grass if applied in the heat of summer on dry grass. If it's cool out, you shouldn't have a problem.
Another trick is to get the people to add large mulch beds. Decaying organic matter neutralizes pH. Then you can do surface applications of iron on the beds.
Foliar sparys of iron in the spring is another effective way to green the trees up.
A treatment protocol might go like this: Add sulfur, compost and chips to a large area under the trees, at least to the dripline, using sulfur out in a much larger area and repeating about once a month, avoid july and august heat. Then the following spring, do a foliar application of iron, refresh compost and mulch, continue sulfur. Year three, get homeowner applying his own sulfur and refreshing mulch and monitor the trees.
Foliar sprays become ineffective once the leaves harden off, spraying needs to be done early.


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## Stumper (May 6, 2005)

Good advice from Mister Maas. Tack 2. If the customer doesn't want mulch beds. You could just throw up your hands and leave in a huff  but all is not lost. You can drill holes and add granular soil acidifiers like Ironite , Ionate, or generic Ferrous Sulfate. I like to do a vertical mulching at the same time. I drill a bunch of 1.75-2 inch holes around the rootzone. Some holes get the acidifier while others get NPK if advisable and many more get filled with composted material. We have the same Ph problem here and tree responses have been very gratifying.


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## treeman45246 (May 6, 2005)

Mike sounds like he has a great management plan for pin oaks, and I'd try to follow his advice. Surface sulpher applications will help to change pH, but it will take many years of applications to affect that change. Sulpher can be added at rates up to 5 lbs per thousand square feet (not hundred) over turf and up to 15 lbs per thousand square feet over a mulched area without fear of burn in each application.... so that may help make your case for mulching.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 6, 2005)

Sulfur doesn't last long, just a month or two. The same is true for drilling holes and adding granular soil acidifiers, and even sulfuric acid. If you add a lasting amount, it'll burn roots to some extent (even that is still leaps and bounds better than drilling holes in the tree). That's why I encourage mulch beds, it's the only long term way of acidifying soil that I know of.
Soils will continually revert to the pH of the bedrock. By adding decaying organic matter, you have a slow release, long lasting weapon against high pH.

I also wanted to point out that 9 out of 10 times I look at a tree that supposedly has a pH related chlorosis, it turns out to be root damage, soil compaction, lack of decaying organic matter, or a combination of these. 
In Oaks, chlorosis is almost always root damage. The only exception is Pin Oak in alkaline soil, then it's only about 50% of the time it's root damage.
In the case of root damage, I've found Cambistat to be the magic bullet, in comination of the previously mentioned protocol (compost, mulch, sulfer).


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 7, 2005)

As a last resort for very chlorotic trees a basal flair macro-fusion of Feric Amonium Citrate (I think I got that right) is cheap and suposed to be effective for around four years.


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## TreeJunkie (May 8, 2005)

Unfortunately the customer isn't probobally gonna put up the kind of money for cambiastat applications.
Problem is we have pin oak on a limestone bed. Thus good tree-wrong place.

The trees are surrounded my turf. This is going to limit the amount of sulfar we can put down per application. I've suggested building muclch beds beneath the tree, however the customer really doesn't care for this luck and it seems this opinion may not change much.

At the cost of repeated applications over the next 6-10 yrs it may wind up being a better idea to remove the trees and replant w/ more suitable specimens.

After all even w/ the proper treatments it the customer is still going to have 5 trees that will require constant care in order to keep them healthy. (more than usual)

Basically saying it's cheaper for the client to cut them down now and replace w/ something better than to have to care for these trees over the next ten years.

Anyone agree w/ this?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 8, 2005)

Let the customer know what it's going to cost to treat, and to remove, and then it's up to them.
What size trees are we talking about?
The comment about sulfur and grass, think about it, if _GRASS_ can't handle the dose of sulfur, how are the tree roots going to do? More is not necessarily better.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 8, 2005)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> As a last resort for very chlorotic trees a basal flair macro-fusion of Feric Amonium Citrate (I think I got that right) is cheap and suposed to be effective for around four years.



I would go along with this for very chlorotic trees as a last resort, but a one time deal only. Then use other methods to maintain the trees. Repeated injections are going to create a hazard tree in time.
We have a customer, who we warned about an elm that had repeated injections for DED, have the tree fall on her causing serious injury (we didn't do the injections, luckily). 
Be careful.


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## TreeJunkie (May 8, 2005)

trees are 8-10" diameter and twenty to twenty five feet tall.

I did as you're saying mike; let the customer know the options and prices and he's gonna think it over this weekend and will be calling me monday..


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 9, 2005)

Mike Maas said:


> I would go along with this for very chlorotic trees as a last resort, but a one time deal only. Then use other methods to maintain the trees. Repeated injections are going to create a hazard tree in time.
> We have a customer, who we warned about an elm that had repeated injections for DED, have the tree fall on her causing serious injury (we didn't do the injections, luckily).
> Be careful.



Could you adirectly link the basal injection damamge to the failure?

I've dices up a few elm and oak which had basal macrofusion have seen poor compartmentalization in some. It seems that those that have trunk injections fair worse then those in the basal flair.

In the red oak subgenus I would probably do subsequent injections, but require regular risk evals. Any tree in that poor of condition would probably need an agreement with the client that the treatment is for extention of SULE, not a cure.

IMO any form of injection is last case due to the need to injure to treat. I feel it is over used by some practiotioners.


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## TreeJunkie (May 10, 2005)

Good points everyone. 

The client called me this evening. After talking it over with his wife they have decided they want to inject the trees in hopes this will at least give them a year or two in order to decide whether the trees should be replaced or to continue treements at that point in time.

I informed them of all other options and let them know each ways pros and cons. However they couldn't be talked into the preferred ways.

So i guess my next questio is about injection method. I was planning on using a similar setup to what arborjet and rainbow sell. Attached is photo of the type of system. However rather than spending the 300-500 bucks to by a name brand item, I have fashioned up a nearly identical setup. My setup has 4 injection hoses. I was thinking that on the size of trees i'm planning on using this upon that 4 would be sufficient. I was going to drill the holes down on the root flair w/ a high helix 1/8" bits. My question is how deep do i need to drill. I wouldn't think you would need to go very deep being the zylem layer is the target. But hey what do i know? I'm pretty new to this. Anyone care to critique this approach? Have any pointers?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 10, 2005)

You need to drill a little deeper than the tee, otherwise the tee will bottom out and not snug into the hole.
Space the tees out about every 6". Dig soil away from the base and inject into the root flare. Uptake will be slow if the soil is dry, it's humid, hot or cool.
Some guys just use a gravity feed system. Just hang the supply 5 or 6 feet up the tree and let gravity supply the hose, like an IV.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 10, 2005)

It is pretty much the last 4 years of growth that do the majority of the transportin most trees, though many use just last years.

I believe the red subG all are in the first catagory.


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## Ekka (May 11, 2005)

I've just read this thread and have a couple of questions.

Wont the tree codit the wound from drilling, wall1, shut down vessels?

And, why not soil inject around the tree as an alternative? The feeder roots will take it up and there's no wounds.

Over here we are having our second session of the Lantana bug eating away the Fiddlewood trees (not that I really care) but some people want to save their Fiddlewoods. we found that the soil treatment worked better.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 11, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Wont the tree codit the wound from drilling, wall1, shut down vessels?



It will codit at some point, but long after the injection is complete. Just how long is a good question. My guess is it is highly variable, from hours to weeks.



Ekka said:


> And, why not soil inject around the tree as an alternative? The feeder roots will take it up and there's no wounds..



The problem is the soil pH is too high and as such makes the micro-nutrients unavailable. In this case, the iron is present in the soil, it's just locked up because of the pH. Any added iron will be locked up too.
The strategy is to reduce the pH and that frees up the iron. Lowering pH is a difficult thing, especially long term. Topsoil always wants to revert to the pH of the bedrock.
The trunk injections are easy and the results are immediate. The problem is the things we inject are concentrated and burn the plant cells at the injection points, so you don't just get little holes, you can get large areas of decay. You are drilling into 4 to 8 years of wood, every year or two, do the math. Eventually you are going to have problems.
This is why Macro injections are favored by some. Macro injection puts the same amount of chemical into the tree as a Micro injection, but it uses a much more dilute solution, which gives better distribution and is less likely to burn the vascular tissue.
A Micro injection may use a few ounces, while a Macro injection uses around 40 gallons. Obviously micro is easier and cheaper to do, not so good for the tree though, and in the case of Iron injections, the results are short term.


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## TreeJunkie (May 11, 2005)

TreeJunkie said:


> Here in the Kansas City area we have consistent problems with our pin oaks becoming chlorotic, not because of a lack of iron in the soil, however because the ph is too high. Because of this general fertilization is rather futile b/c the trees can't utilize the nutients.
> 
> Thanks...




The trees can't use the iron in the soil because of the high ph, therefore soil drench would be of no help.


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## TreeJunkie (May 11, 2005)

I know i should just read the directions, however the supplier where i procure the product has not used this method before thus has no recommendations. They told me they would just drill holes and fill the holes w/ the straight product/no dillution. I've seen this done w/ good result however I've found this requires more and larger holes.
So here's the question.

I'm gonna be injecting a iron supplement which according to the label contains 8% iron, mixing this w/ water. 

How much total solution would be recommended?

What ratio would you mix the two????

Keep in mind the trees I'm going to be injecting are between 8-10". Is there a per caliper inch measurement i could be using?


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## TreeJunkie (May 11, 2005)

Mike,

Didn't see your above post. The idea of using a larger amount of solution does make some sense. I was hoping to keep the total amount to down around 1/2-1 gallon. With the injection gear I have it could take and entire day to inject one tree if i tried to get much more.

Can you burn the tree injecting too much iron?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 11, 2005)

Yes, you can use too much. I've heard of guys blowing the leaves right off the tree, but they will re-leaf.  
Your best bet is to contact the product manufacturer directly for application instructions. The vendors are usually not experienced with using the stuff they sell, they more or less just pass on what other guys are doing. Either call the joint that makes the pump system, the guys who make the iron product, or better yet, both. They should have good telephone support, after all, they want you to be successful so you buy more of their stuff.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 11, 2005)

I've heard the same thing as Mike with Fe products causing early abscision. Some companies who do it regularly only do it in the fall.

Have you tried the vert mulch with a strong acid? I know a few people in S/E WI who still do it, one calls it "Root Beer Floats" because of the way the soil foams when you poor sulferic acid into the holes.

From what I've been told, you do it out where there are mostly fine fibrous roots. The Fe and Mn will be released and fine roots will colonize the area untill it buffers down again.

Arbotech has low enough pH to it that I've often wondered about making a fert that is very low, such as a humic acid, in a soil injection.


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## TreeJunkie (May 11, 2005)

the supplier i spoke w/ is also i believe the manufacturer, the product is manufactured on a relatively small scale. The injection device is homemade modeled after Rainbow's sytem.

As of right now the customer doesnt' want to try the sulfar treatments. I get the picture the guy really has no idea what he wants. 

He had spoken w/ other tree companies prior to myelf and they all had told him of nothing more than injecting w/ iron. None of which companies told him of the limited residual effect or of any long term treatment options. 

I think he might come around though.


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